# GM JI Han Jae



## Kong Soo Do

> *Originally Posted by puunui*
> Sinmoo Hapkido GM JI Han Jae was 8th Dan when  he was 29, 9th Dan when he was 35 and 10th Dan when he was 47. His  student, GM MYUNG Kwang Sik, was 6th Dan at 27, 7th Dan at 29, 8th Dan  at 33, and 9th Dan at 47.


This came up in the TKD section, but I wanted to re-post it here where it was more forum-specific.  


GM Ji Han Jae was born in 1936 and didn't begin  under Choi, Yung Sul until the age of 13.  So, doing a little math, he  was an 8th Dan within 16 years.  


Who ranked JI Han Jae to 8th Dan? 
Is 16 years of training enough to reach this level, in your opinion?  Why or why not?


----------



## Jason Striker II

I haven't considered any of this problem about his rapid ranking (which it was), but Bruce Lee thought sufficiently of the guy to use him for a segment of Game of Death. In other words, a very proficient practitioner!

Here's some more info on the guy: http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/history.html


----------



## Kong Soo Do

I remember watching the footage, including some 'lost' footage.  If I remember correctly, he was the 'Chin Na' guy?  He beat the Hapkido guy with Bruce.


----------



## MAist25

All that really matters for a rank to have worth or value in the big picture, not a personal view, is how other perceive you. If you make 8th dan in 16 years you better be able to back it up with some serious skill, GM Ji Han Jae could and did. Also, I believe that Hapkido is such a young art, with him being one of the pioneers, he made rank much faster than anybody would be able to today due to the fact that this new style had to build a foundation and establish a base of leadership, which led to what we would consider extraordinarily fast promotions. 

If you look at the new style of Korean martial arts called Gongkwon Yusul that is starting to make its way out of the woodwork today, you will notice that there are already many high ranking practitioners in the art, although it is still very young. They are ranking people very quickly in order to form a base upon which to build the art. This is something I believe most, if not every style has to do in order to spread and gain popularity. Hapkido was no different.


----------



## Kinghercules

Kong Soo Do said:


> This came up in the TKD section, but I wanted to re-post it here where it was more forum-specific.
> 
> 
> GM Ji Han Jae was born in 1936 and didn't begin  under Choi, Yung Sul until the age of 13.  So, doing a little math, he  was an 8th Dan within 16 years.
> 
> 
> Who ranked JI Han Jae to 8th Dan?
> Is 16 years of training enough to reach this level, in your opinion?  Why or why not?



Well when you start your own style you become the master of that style.  And therefore you can award yourself whatever rank you see fit.


----------



## Jason Striker II

MAist25 said:


> All that really matters for a rank to have worth or value in the big picture, not a personal view, is how other perceive you. If you make 8th dan in 16 years you better be able to back it up with some serious skill, GM Ji Han Jae could and did. Also, I believe that Hapkido is such a young art, with him being one of the pioneers, he made rank much faster than anybody would be able to today due to the fact that this new style had to build a foundation and establish a base of leadership, which led to what we would consider extraordinarily fast promotions.
> 
> If you look at the new style of Korean martial arts called Gongkwon Yusul that is starting to make its way out of the woodwork today, you will notice that there are already many high ranking practitioners in the art, although it is still very young. They are ranking people very quickly in order to form a base upon which to build the art. This is something I believe most, if not every style has to do in order to spread and gain popularity. Hapkido was no different.



IMO, these points are very important in cases like this.


----------



## iron_ox

Kong Soo Do said:


> This came up in the TKD section, but I wanted to re-post it here where it was more forum-specific.
> 
> 
> GM Ji Han Jae was born in 1936 and didn't begin  under Choi, Yung Sul until the age of 13.  So, doing a little math, he  was an 8th Dan within 16 years.
> 
> 
> Who ranked JI Han Jae to 8th Dan?
> Is 16 years of training enough to reach this level, in your opinion?  Why or why not?



Isn't this similar to a thread that created considerable controversy just a while back?  Yes, I would also be interested in who was issuing 8th dan in 1965.  Interesting because one of the most senior people teaching at the dojang of Choi Dojunim was only 6th dan - in 1965 that is. Go figure.


----------



## Jason Striker II

This kind of controversy has a long, and somewhat sordid, history. For some of the facts check:

http://judoinfo.com/new/alphabetical-list/judo-history/375-how-the-masters-got-their-ranks


----------



## miguksaram

Kong Soo Do said:


> This came up in the TKD section, but I wanted to re-post it here where it was more forum-specific.
> 
> 
> GM Ji Han Jae was born in 1936 and didn't begin  under Choi, Yung Sul until the age of 13.  So, doing a little math, he  was an 8th Dan within 16 years.
> 
> 
> Who ranked JI Han Jae to 8th Dan?
> Is 16 years of training enough to reach this level, in your opinion?  Why or why not?


Why not contact him and ask him personally or go to one of his seminars to ask him?  Also, why not ask the many people who learned under him around that time if his level of proficiency deemed an 8th dan?  

Is 16 years enough time?  I do not know.  How many days a week did he practice?  How many hours in each day?  Did he have any background martial arts prior to training?  Was he the type of person that could pick up on something very quickly and thus move faster through the ranks? What was the guep rank structure back then compared to today?  Was there any rank structure?  Did Choi Dojunim protest his ranking when it was given?

To many questions to answer in order to give an opinion.  And let's say that he shouldn't have received it.  Does that make every HKD rank under his umbrella invalid from that time on since his was not legit?


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> Isn't this similar to a thread that created considerable controversy just a while back?  Yes, I would also be interested in who was issuing 8th dan in 1965.  Interesting because one of the most senior people teaching at the dojang of Choi Dojunim was only 6th dan - in 1965 that is. Go figure.



What was your hapkido rank in 1965? Any students back then? How many had dojang of their own? Also, I made a mistake, it was 1967 for 8th Dan, not 1965.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

miguksaram said:


> To many questions to answer in order to give an opinion.



Couldn't that apply to anyone you don't know personally?



> And let's say that he shouldn't have received it. Does that make every HKD rank under his umbrella invalid from that time on since his was not legit?



Now that brings up a very interesting question.  How do you feel about it?  My initial thoughts would be that it wouldn't really matter either way.  Many 'founders' didnt' have rank in the art they created, because who would rank them if they're the founder?  Yet, they can and did establish a rank structure in may cases.  And since 'rank' is pretty much about personal accomplishments(s), whether or not GM JI earned his rank or gave it to himself or was given it by Choi or advanced by various organizations is a moot point in the long view.  

Lookng at the questions that you've asked, what amounts would you (or anyone) assign to them in order for 8th Dan within 16 years to be legitimate?


----------



## Jason Striker II

Kong Soo Do said:


> Couldn't that apply to anyone you don't know personally?
> 
> 
> 
> Now that brings up a very interesting question.  How do you feel about it?  My initial thoughts would be that it wouldn't really matter either way.  Many 'founders' didnt' have rank in the art they created, because who would rank them if they're the founder?  Yet, they can and did establish a rank structure in may cases.  And since 'rank' is pretty much about personal accomplishments(s), whether or not GM JI earned his rank or gave it to himself or was given it by Choi or advanced by various organizations is a moot point in the long view.
> 
> Lookng at the questions that you've asked, what amounts would you (or anyone) assign to them in order for 8th Dan within 16 years to be legitimate?



All correct! The point is: There is, in fact, no OBJECTIVE standard.


----------



## oftheherd1

Kong Soo Do said:


> ...
> 
> Lookng at the questions that you've asked, what amounts would you (or anyone) assign to them in order for 8th Dan within 16 years to be legitimate?



Wouldn't that depend on how a person was training and under whom? Several hours a day 5 or 6 days a week, versus 2 hours twice a week. I trained Hapkido at least 5 days a week, and mostly under my Kwan's GM. 

In the Hapkido I learned, 3rd Dan would normally assist in teaching. By 4th Dan, you could have your own school under the auspices of your GM. The activities of assistant teaching and then running a school, cut down on your own study time. Drastically!

Given the right type of training, I would not consider an excess of 16 years necessary for 8th Dan. Those are in my opinion artificially imposed time frames for the most part. As long as a student can show mastery of the level to which he attains, he can be promoted. Some levels also require written papers, but I don't know at what level. When Hapkido was considering 10th Dan, I understand the GMs were told that they would have to submit papers as a test. To my knowledge, they weren't required to know any more techniques, as they should have known them all by 8th Dan.

Just my two cents. Nobody else has to agree.


----------



## iron_ox

puunui said:


> What was your hapkido rank in 1965? Any students back then? How many had dojang of their own? Also, I made a mistake, it was 1967 for 8th Dan, not 1965.



Glenn, you posted Ji got an 8th Dan in 1967 - simple question, who issued it??  It has nothing to do with me, you made the statement - stop trying to divert the issue and simply answer the question.  Or, if it an issue of you being told that, and not knowing the answer, then that would be the answer, that you don't know.  There is no reason to try and personalize something that is based on a piece of information that you provide.


----------



## iron_ox

Lots of people went to train with a man named Dan Hydrick, he was featured on That's Incredible...his skills seems superhuman - until he was exposed as a fraud...so, going and training with someone is not always any moniker of their training, just their skill on that day. And we are talking about an abject list of rank and their issue dates, so training with someone is kind of an apples - oranges argument to me.

Did Choi Dojunim protest the rank?  That's a good question, but he certainly did not issue it.

And, as for the issue of whether all the other rank that has been issued by him is legit, I think that would depend on what one gets rank in.  In my opinion, in Sin Moo, the founder can issue whatever rank he wants right?


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> Glenn, you posted Ji got an 8th Dan in 1967 - simple question, who issued it??



The Korea Hapkido Association. The President of the KHA at the time was Mr. PARK Jong Kyu, who was head of the ROK Presidential Protective Forces, which some say made him the second or third most powerful person in Korea, along with KCIA Head/Prime Minister KIM Jong Pil. Mr. PARK Jong Kyu formed the KHA, under ROK President PARK Chung Hee's authority. 




iron_ox said:


> It has nothing to do with me, you made the statement - stop trying to divert the issue and simply answer the question.  Or, if it an issue of you being told that, and not knowing the answer, then that would be the answer, that you don't know.  There is no reason to try and personalize something that is based on a piece of information that you provide.



The only person who is personalizing this is you. If you don't wish to answer the questions, for whatever reason, then don't answer them.


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> Lots of people went to train with a man named Dan Hydrick, he was  featured on That's Incredible...his skills seems superhuman - until he  was exposed as a fraud...so, going and training with someone is not  always any moniker of their training, just their skill on that day. And  we are talking about an abject list of rank and their issue dates, so  training with someone is kind of an apples - oranges argument to me.



Are you calling GM Ji a fraud? 




iron_ox said:


> Did Choi Dojunim protest the rank?  That's a good question, but he certainly did not issue it.



Maybe not, but what is also certain is that GM Ji has more training days with GM Choi than you do, and yet you choose to disrespect him every chance you get. That's certainly worth noting, in my opinion. Have you ever met GM Ji? How about GM Choi? I ask because you certainly speak about them like you have. 




iron_ox said:


> And, as for the issue of whether all the other rank that has been issued by him is legit, I think that would depend on what one gets rank in.  In my opinion, in Sin Moo, the founder can issue whatever rank he wants right?



Anyone can do whatever they want, as long as they are willing to accept the consequences for their actions.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> The Korea Hapkido Association. The President of the KHA at the time was Mr. PARK Jong Kyu, who was head of the ROK Presidential Protective Forces, which some say made him the second or third most powerful person in Korea, along with KCIA Head/Prime Minister KIM Jong Pil. Mr. PARK Jong Kyu formed the KHA, under ROK President PARK Chung Hee's authority.



Did Mr. PARK Jong Kyu have Hapkido training?  Or was this an administrative posting via the government to regulate the KHA?

Not speaking for Iron Ox, but in my opinion it isn't a matter for the use of the word 'fraud'.  GM JI doesn't fit that descriptor.  He has skill(s) which could be demonstrated.  Apparently, he also was/is a very good teacher and has/does offer something that is lasting the test of time.  To me, a fraud would be someone with little experience printing out a 10th Dan cert on the computer.  Or charging for certificates in an organization they don't represent.  Things of that nature.  

I think the question was whether one could be an 8th Dan in as little as 16 (or 18) years.  The answer to that obviously will change from the perspective of the person answering.  To be fair, at that time it may have been considered necessary in order to establish a hierarchy within the art and/or an particular organization.  Glenn could probably answer that question.  

My only caveat would be that if one accepts this duration, for that rank, then they should be fair and balanced across the board when considering others time/rank.


----------



## iron_ox

Kong Soo Do said:


> Did Mr. PARK Jong Kyu have Hapkido training?  Or was this an administrative posting via the government to regulate the KHA?
> 
> Not speaking for Iron Ox, but in my opinion it isn't a matter for the use of the word 'fraud'.  GM JI doesn't fit that descriptor.  He has skill(s) which could be demonstrated.  Apparently, he also was/is a very good teacher and has/does offer something that is lasting the test of time.  To me, a fraud would be someone with little experience printing out a 10th Dan cert on the computer.  Or charging for certificates in an organization they don't represent.  Things of that nature.
> 
> I think the question was whether one could be an 8th Dan in as little as 16 (or 18) years.  The answer to that obviously will change from the perspective of the person answering.  To be fair, at that time it may have been considered necessary in order to establish a hierarchy within the art and/or an particular organization.  Glenn could probably answer that question.
> 
> My only caveat would be that if one accepts this duration, for that rank, then they should be fair and balanced across the board when considering others time/rank.


 
Miguksaram said "go train with the man" - I raised the issue that seeing anyone person on a single day does not mean they are who or what they say they are.  Read the post again.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

I was only commenting on the word 'fraud' since it had been brought up and offered an opinion as to if it applied to this situation.  

I'd still like to know;



> Did Mr. PARK Jong Kyu have Hapkido training?  Or was this an administrative posting via the government to regulate the KHA?



I think it is interesting to note that this questions hasn't been touched in several days.  It is a simple question.

I think it is also interesting to note the lack of a level playing field.


----------



## iron_ox

Kong Soo Do said:


> I was only commenting on the word 'fraud' since it had been brought up and offered an opinion as to if it applied to this situation.
> 
> I'd still like to know;
> 
> 
> 
> I think it is interesting to note that this questions hasn't been touched in several days.  It is a simple question.
> 
> I think it is also interesting to note the lack of a level playing field.



Just wanted to make sure that my post was understood.  I don't necessarily believe that training with someone once or twice can tell you about their true level of skill overall. I guess that is also true if one is simply checking out someone's background in general, even before they train, it can be very difficult if someone's life story is constantly undergoing historical revisionism.  I know it must be difficult to get all media outlets to get everything correct at the same time!


----------



## Kong Soo Do

iron_ox said:


> Just wanted to make sure that my post was understood.



No problem 



> I don't necessarily believe that training with someone once or twice can tell you about their true level of skill overall.



I agree.  To take it further, I have seen people overlook what could be seen as questionable, if it is someone they like while at the same time 'question' or comment negatively on those they don't like, even if the person they don't like exceeds the standards of the one they do like.  On top of this, they may or may not truly know the level of skill of the one(s) they question or negatively comment on.  They may actually know nothing first-hand about them.  This is why I commented on the lack of a level playing field.  It is a double-standard.


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> Just wanted to make sure that my post was understood.  I don't necessarily believe that training with someone once or twice can tell you about their true level of skill overall. I guess that is also true if one is simply checking out someone's background in general, even before they train, it can be very difficult if someone's life story is constantly undergoing historical revisionism.  I know it must be difficult to get all media outlets to get everything correct at the same time!



It is obvious that you have an agenda with respect to GM Ji. No problem. If you wish to swim upstream and fight the world, knock yourself out. I guarantee you that he doesn't care about what you think and what you say, anymore than I do. 

Go for it.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

> Originally Posted by *iron_ox*
> Glenn, you posted Ji got an 8th Dan in 1967 - simple question, who issued it??





puunui said:


> The Korea Hapkido Association. The President of the KHA at the time was Mr. PARK Jong Kyu, who was head of the ROK Presidential Protective Forces, which some say made him the second or third most powerful person in Korea, along with KCIA Head/Prime Minister KIM Jong Pil. Mr. PARK Jong Kyu formed the KHA, under ROK President PARK Chung Hee's authority.



I've been asking the question of whether or not Mr. PARK had Hapkido experience, in that he could issue someone an 8th Dan. Looking back, it hit me that you listed him a _*Mr.*_ rather than _*Master*_ or _*GM*_. This would seem to answer my question that he either had no Hapkido training or was not of sufficient rank to issue anyone an 8th Dan. This then, if I understand, would have been an administrative type post for the government and not one of actual experience.

I suppose this is okay, though perhaps a bit odd. One typically thinks of someone of greater experience, or at least higher rank being the issuing athority in such things. I'm not indicating this is wrong or that there is a problem with it. I know that the Japanese ministry did something similar decades earlier when looking into officially sanctioning karate in Japan. I guess it all boils down to the value that one places on the certification that is issued by a governing authority. 

My thanks to everyone that has participated in this thread. It has proven enlightening.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Interesting tidbit that was passed on to me;  according to Scott Shaw;



> The reason President Park was so in favor of this new organization was, in no small part, due to the fact that Park, Jong Kyu, a student of Ji, Han Jae and head of the Presidential Protective Forces, was an instrumental element in its formation. In 1973 Ji, Han Jae resigned from this organization, with the hopes of taking many of its members with him and bringing them to a new organization he was instrumental in creating: The Republic of Korea Hapkido Association.



http://www.tkd-hapkido.com/hapkido_history.htm

This would seem to put the student ranking the teacher???


----------



## MJS

Folks,

We've already had a few posts from this thread brought to our attention.  Lets keep the thread on topic please.  I realize that some may disagree with other members posts.  Disagreement is part of life.  No need to publically air this stuff in the forum.  

MJS
MT Asst. Admin


----------



## iron_ox

Kong Soo Do said:


> This would seem to put the student ranking the teacher???



According to Wikipedia (not always the best resource): *"Before he left Korea a former student, Myung Jae-Nam, the head of the  International H.K.D Federation, awarded Ji Han-Jae a 10th Dan"* 

I can only go on the information provided in the original post, but if this is the same 10th dan from 1983 (it might not be) then it appears that rank was garnered *again* from a student.  

Now that is interesting huh? 

Assuming the wiki is correct.

Maybe there was another 10th dan issued by another person or group.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Looking back over this thread has been highly interesting.  And I would prefer the thread to be fair and balanced.  By this, I mean, that in no way am I suggesting GM JI has done anything wrong.  Many could see his rise to 8th and 9th Dan as being far too short a time.  But that begs the question of what is the standard they are judging the time by i.e. what ruler are you using to measure?  I could also see a student ranking him if the student(s) were placed in positions of authority within or at the top of a specific organization.  Now, I can't say where or not this was a 'good-ole-boy' promotion or not as I wasn't there and don't know the specifics.  Others would have to offer their input if they have some factual information.  

Another consideration is that the KHF may have shorter TIG requirements as a whole than what is 'typically' thought of for the martial arts.  And this is fine as well as they are their own governing authority and can set standards as they see fit.  I don't know what their TIG standards are so I'd like to ask someone who would know i.e. puunui.  If I remember correctly, you are a 9th Dan in this organization under GM JI (or you were under him at some point).  Simply asked, how long did it take you to earn your 9th Dan?  How long had you been training in Hapkido prior to earning this rank?  Could this be considered an average time for Hapkido students in this organization?  Thank you.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Taking a look at this again, from another perspective.  Uechi Kannei Sensei didn't adopt the Dan/Kyu system until the mid 50's.  By this time, he probably had at or around 30 years of training and teaching experience.  I'd have to go back and check the dates, but I'm pretty close.  Senior students (ones that had trained under Uechi Kanbun Sensei) only went to 4th or 5th Dan when the Dan/Kyu system was implemented.  Many of which probably had more than 20 years of training.  They didn't seem to be as interested in 'rank' in Okinawa or at this time as later day Korea appears to be.  Perhaps 16-18 years would better warrant a 5th Dan...perhaps maybe a 6th Dan if somewhat traditional standards are being adhered to in the art.

Again, just looking at it from a different perspective i.e. different art/culture/era.  

I'm still curious as to the TIG guidelines of those under GM Ji to see if they were also of much shorter duration than what one would consider 'traditional' or 'standard'.  I'm disappointed that this information hasn't been offered by those here with first hand knowledge i.e. trained under GM JI and/or belong to the same organizations and/or are of comparable rank.  It would help to make a good comparison of standards within this branch of the art.

At any rate, it is very interesting to compare and contrast cultures/arts/eras etc with the information that we do have on hand.  Gives one some historical perspective and insight.  I like this sort of thing.


----------



## yorkshirelad

Kong Soo Do said:


> This came up in the TKD section, but I wanted to re-post it here where it was more forum-specific.
> 
> 
> GM Ji Han Jae was born in 1936 and didn't begin under Choi, Yung Sul until the age of 13. So, doing a little math, he was an 8th Dan within 16 years.
> 
> 
> Who ranked JI Han Jae to 8th Dan?
> Is 16 years of training enough to reach this level, in your opinion? Why or why not?



Hapkido has always had a dubious ranking history, and still does, but that does not make the art a fraud. To begin with, it is doubtful if Choi had any rank in Daito Ryu from Takeda Sokaku. After all, there is no record of him  training with Takeda, and he claimed that his documentatio got lost on a train. This is dubious to say the least.
When Choi was teaching, he refered to his art as Yawara. It was Ji who named his art Hapkido. I believe Ji was ranked to 3rd Dan by Choi, but the art of Hapkido and subsequently Sin Moo Hapkido was developed by Ji. The Danjun breathing, special kicking techniques, and some of the more philosophical charateristics were all incorporated by Ji. Therefore it is par for the course that he would be a high rank, at a young age, because he created the art.
My Hapkido teacher. Massan Ghorbani began his Hapkido training in , I believe 1991 or 1992, by 1996 he was promoted to 6th Dan. A similar time frame can be seen with Jurg Ziegler of Switzerland. Both of these gentlemen are now 10th Dan, and, along with GM Young and GM McKenzie will ensure the art survives into the next generation as Ji envisions it.
I have been an uke for Ji, and I can tell you that he is powerful and still makes an effort to train, even in his advanced age.


----------



## iron_ox

yorkshirelad said:


> Hapkido has always had a dubious ranking history, and still does, but that does not make the art a fraud. To begin with, it is doubtful if Choi had any rank in Daito Ryu from Takeda Sokaku. After all, there is no record of him  training with Takeda, and he claimed that his documentatio got lost on a train. This is dubious to say the least.



Choi Dojunim had very consistent ranking throughout his teaching career.  If his ranking from Takeda Sokaku is in question to you, perhaps you should give up Hapkido since even Ji has claimed (although I am not sure where in the revision it appears) that all the actual techniques he teaches came from Choi Dojunim.



yorkshirelad said:


> When Choi was teaching, he refered to his art as Yawara. It was Ji who named his art Hapkido.



According to Ji, he came up with the name - he started making this claim after Choi Dojunim died - although several of Choi Dojunim's students, including Suh Bok Sup (Choi
Dojunim's First Student) make the claim that Choi Dojunim first used the name Hapkido.





yorkshirelad said:


> I believe Ji was ranked to 3rd Dan by Choi, but the art of Hapkido and subsequently Sin Moo Hapkido was developed by Ji. The Danjun breathing, special kicking techniques, and some of the more philosophical charateristics were all incorporated by Ji. Therefore it is par for the course that he would be a high rank, at a young age, because he created the art.



Sorry here, but Choi Dojunim always taught Danjun Breathing, although Ji may also teach this as well, it was always part of what Choi Dojunim taught.  The "special kicking" you speak of seems incongruent with the very principles that Choi Dojunim imparted that Ji uses.  And as for the philosophy, that is part of Sin Moo, so if it works for you, that seems fair enough.  And it continues to seem odd that students would rank the teacher.



yorkshirelad said:


> My Hapkido teacher. Massan Ghorbani began his Hapkido training in , I believe 1991 or 1992, by 1996 he was promoted to 6th Dan. A similar time frame can be seen with Jurg Ziegler of Switzerland. Both of these gentlemen are now 10th Dan, and, along with GM Young and GM McKenzie will ensure the art survives into the next generation as Ji envisions it.
> I have been an uke for Ji, and I can tell you that he is powerful and still makes an effort to train, even in his advanced age.



Clearly in Sin Moo the Founder can issue whatever rank they want.  Seems totally reasonable.  He's even known to offer 8th dans to people that can't spell Hapkido, but that's his prerogative. Right?


----------



## hkdsean

I normally avoid these discussions because they are flooded with misinformation and speculation as most have strong personal feelings but lack any real evidence.   



iron_ox said:


> Choi Dojunim had very consistent ranking throughout his teaching career.  If his ranking from Takeda Sokaku is in question to you, perhaps you should give up Hapkido since even Ji has claimed (although I am not sure where in the revision it appears) that all the actual techniques he teaches came from Choi Dojunim.
> 
> How was his ranking system consistent?  Do any of his students have rank from 1st degree up through their higher degrees?  Was the meaning of these degrees ever laid out as to what these ranks mean?  Most systems went up to between 2nd and 5th degrees with nothing designated as too what higher ranks meant.
> 
> As for Takeda, ones belief in the techniques that may have been passed down verses what a piece of paper says are two very different things.  Just because someone questions something doesn't mean they don't value it.  Why should he give up hapkido simply because he doesn't take a single person's word for history.  The evidence points to a strong connection (and in my opinion a legitimate one), but does not give ANY evidence as to what rank Choi may have held from him.
> 
> Ji has never said that all his techniques cam from Choi.  If someone is claiming he said this, it is either a misquote or a misunderstanding of something he said.
> 
> Misunderstanding, misquoting and leading interviews are all too common with many of these senior instructors.  Often there is also a language issue that should be considered as well.  I laugh at some of the "quotes" that Ji supposedly gives.  Many times it is BS where a certain instructor is simply trying to make themselves look better.
> 
> According to Ji, he came up with the name - he started making this claim after Choi Dojunim died - although several of Choi Dojunim's students, including Suh Bok Sup (Choi
> Dojunim's First Student) make the claim that Choi Dojunim first used the name Hapkido.
> 
> Ji made that claim prior to Choi's passing, though he has always maintained that Choi was one of his teachers.  There is one article written by Wollmerhauser who quotes Suh, but anyone who objectively reads that article can recognize leading questions.  Many people quote that article to point to some rift between Ji and Suh, but I have been with the two of them together and there was NO animosity toward one another.  I have pictures of the two of them in 2002 smiling and holding hands.
> 
> As for the name, it is largely irrelevant at this point and Ji has said this.  Looking at the history and comparative curriculums is more interesting in my opinion.  There are several people on both sides who say each of them came up with the name, but comparing what each of them taught as a curriculum, what others taught and teach as their curriculum, and how these are related. Unfortunately, there are very few people who would be willing to look at this in depth enough and objectively enough to actually make any progress. Most have too much personal interest to step back and look at it.
> 
> Sorry here, but Choi Dojunim always taught Danjun Breathing, although Ji may also teach this as well, it was always part of what Choi Dojunim taught.  The "special kicking" you speak of seems incongruent with the very principles that Choi Dojunim imparted that Ji uses.  And as for the philosophy, that is part of Sin Moo, so if it works for you, that seems fair enough.  And it continues to seem odd that students would rank the teacher.
> 
> How do you know that he always taught Danjon breathing?  There were very few people who were around in the early years, and if Choi taught it later, it does not mean that Ji was not the one who introduced it into the curriculum.  To say that Choi taught a form of Danjun breathing may be true, but to say that he ALWAYS taught Danjon breathing is without merit.  This then gets into the question of what Danjon breathing is, and what these instructors mean when they teach it.  I am not familiar enough with what Takeda taught to know whether or not he taught it.
> 
> I will agree that most of what people pass off as special kicking is simply taekwondo style kicking taught under the heading of hapkido.  The kicking that Ji teaches is much more similar to Taekyon and at its core is VERY congruent with principles that he uses for the hand techniques.  As for what Choi taught, I never had the opportunity to train with him, so I will never know.  I certainly wouldn't pretend to say I did.
> 
> As for teachers ranking students, this is a common thread through most Asian countries that have deep ties to Confucianism and more directly Neo-confucianism.  There are many levels of hierarchy and many ways that juniors can honor seniors.  Rank as we talk about it (and for some strange reason place some mystical importance on) is a relatively new concept.  More important priorly was age first, and then seniority, second (who started before who).  For someone to start a new organization or become the head of an organization and then honor their teacher, senior, father, or some other important figure is nothing new.  To give them the "highest" rank simply implies great respect, and not that the junior "graded" the senior (I don't think any of these organizations had a 10th Dan syllabus).
> 
> For Myung to present Ji with a 10th Dan is significant for a number of reasons.  Many people again suggest a major falling out between Myung and Ji, but this honor would suggest a high level of respect.  Two, Myung had spent quite some time learning Aikido and incorporating it into what he taught. He still gave Ji this honor after years of cross-training.
> 
> Clearly in Sin Moo the Founder can issue whatever rank they want.  Seems totally reasonable.  He's even known to offer 8th dans to people that can't spell Hapkido, but that's his prerogative. Right?



He certainly is free to issue whatever rank he chooses, and the same is true for every other instructor and organization.  The Sinmoo Hapkido curriculum goes up to 4th Dan, so largely anything after this is political or honorary in nature.  It does not necessarily indicate a certain earned level of technique.

As for Hapkido being spelled correctly, this is a ridiculous comment.  Hapkido is most commonly romanized in the way we have written it, but this doesn't follow the revised romanization that tends to me used more often now.  To spell hapkido would only be a relevant statement if we are talking about writing in Hangul (Hanja would not be "spelled" since it does not use a phonetic alphabet which is implied when we say "spell").  Can anyone on this forum spell Hapkido in Arabic?  I can't, but I know some of Ji's students in Africa can.  This then must implie an understanding of the korean language, which last I checked was not a necessary requirement in the art.  On a funny note (yet extremely frustrating) I had an article published a few years back where the the Korean character for "Hap" was misprinted in the final editing process.  Nothing I could do once it went to print.

I don't write on these forums very often, but I really hope people would begin to look at these things a little more objectively.  I am always looking for more information on the early history, and welcome well-researched information.


----------



## iron_ox

I would agree, and certainly think that reading my post again might benefit.  But I will answer some of the more salient points here.

Choi Dojunim had physical techniques up through the rank of 7th Dan. These ranks seemed very consistent with the men that I have met that actually trained to that level.

If someone is going to have any issue with the story that Choi Dojunim had consistently told his entire life, maybe they ought not study his art if they believe he lied.  This seems even more incredulous with a student of Ji saying this as Ji's story has been getting modified for years.  Ji has claimed in several interviews that he was Choi Dojunim's senior student, a high ranking student, etc.  None of these are true.  Now, does this same person question the existence of Taoist Lee or "Grandma"?  Is there any evidence that either of these two people ever existed?  Again, Choi Dojunim's story remained very consistent his entire life, I certainly cannot say the same for Ji, based on the interviews he has given over the years that make a great variety of claims.

If there has been as issue of Ji being misquoted, then he should do a single interview and set down the history that he feels best informs of the truth, because the myriad of articles he has been part of apparently don't work, right?  

So am I to believe that Ji made the techniques up himself?  Or were they from Taoist Lee or Grandma?

Who ever said there was any animosity between Ji and Suh?  There are some great pictures of Ji with Han Bong Soo and others smiling at a meal, and Han and everyone else at that table lists Choi Dojunim as their teacher, not Ji, even though he was, and they are all smiling.  And having asked Master Mike about the article at length, I don't think there was any effort to make it look like anyone had a rift.  It was more the recollection of a 20 something versus that of a 13 year old.  I have met men that were there before Ji and stayed after he did that report similar things.

Please point to any public reference where Ji made these claims before the as in TKDT in 1986.  I have never seen one.

It is difficult to compare curriculum unless you are speaking of doing this up to about 4th dan, since the vast majority of the people that stayed with Choi Dojunim past that rank never left Daegu, and I am curious as to what do you think would accomplish? I'm curious.

I know that Choi Dojunim taught Dan jun breathing because I have spoken to those that were there before Ji, and have seen the difference in what Choi Dojunim taught and what Ji  teaches, quite different in structure and philosophy.  And there are LOTS of people that were around and never left Daegu, many who completed the curriculum and became 8th dans (or higher) under Choi Dojunim.

As for the kicking, I maintain my opinion about it, but if that is the Sin Moo way, so be it.  As to your sarcastic comment about not training with Choi Dojunim, no I have never said I have either, but I have trained with and met with many men that did, they are remarkably consistent in their stories, so since that is the case, I am very certain that learning what they have to teach and say is the next best thing to being there.

I don't know of any other "founders" of styles that were ranked by their students. Can you provide another example?  And if the rank from Myung to Ji was more "ceremonial" that makes sense, except the rank is quoted as an actual "rank".



hkdsean said:


> I normally avoid these discussions because they are flooded with misinformation and speculation as most have strong personal feelings but lack any real evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He certainly is free to issue whatever rank he chooses, and the same is true for every other instructor and organization.  The Sinmoo Hapkido curriculum goes up to 4th Dan, so largely anything after this is political or honorary in nature.  It does not necessarily indicate a certain earned level of technique.
> 
> As for Hapkido being spelled correctly, this is a ridiculous comment.  Hapkido is most commonly romanized in the way we have written it, but this doesn't follow the revised romanization that tends to me used more often now.  To spell hapkido would only be a relevant statement if we are talking about writing in Hangul (Hanja would not be "spelled" since it does not use a phonetic alphabet which is implied when we say "spell").  Can anyone on this forum spell Hapkido in Arabic?  I can't, but I know some of Ji's students in Africa can.  This then must implie an understanding of the korean language, which last I checked was not a necessary requirement in the art.  On a funny note (yet extremely frustrating) I had an article published a few years back where the the Korean character for "Hap" was misprinted in the final editing process.  Nothing I could do once it went to print.
> 
> I don't write on these forums very often, but I really hope people would begin to look at these things a little more objectively.  I am always looking for more information on the early history, and welcome well-researched information.



Sean, read my previous post again, before you say something like this _"As for Hapkido being spelled correctly, this is a ridiculous comment."_  I believe on the philosophical tenets Ji stresses is not to be greedy - that comment I made was in a direct response to the story I was told from a HIGHLY respected martial artist here in Chicago to whom Ji offered an 8th dan in Sin Moo Hapkido, telling him that "we can make a lot of money together" - the gentleman replied he couldn't spell Hapkido, let alone teach it, so that notion would be ridiculous.  
I wrote this:  He's even known to offer 8th dans to people that can't spell Hapkido, but that's his prerogative. Right?

So, where do we find misinformation and speculation?  

Where did the Dan Bong come from according to Ji?  And the size of the Dan Bong?  And what is the purpose of this weapon and why did he include it in his curriculum?

Many early practioners of Hapkido under Choi Dojunim are now being very forthcoming with their experiences, and I am sure that many of the interviews might be seen as leading, but the answers are fascinating, and will bring a world of clarity to waters that are often muddy surrounding Hapkido.


----------



## puunui

hkdsean said:


> I normally avoid these discussions because they are flooded with misinformation and speculation as most have strong personal feelings but lack any real evidence.



Hey Sean, I wouldn't worry about it. To me, the comments you are responding to come from people who have not yet come to the realization that if it weren't for GM Ji, they would have never heard of hapkido and therefore would not be practicing it today. The ingratitude in their hearts clouds their ability to see just exactly what GM Ji has done, not only for hapkido, but for the korean martial arts in general. Perhaps there are those who started earlier than he, but it cannot be argued who had the largest impact. Like I said, I wouldn't worry about it. I know GM Ji doesn't care what these disrespectful juniors think.


----------



## iron_ox

Hello all,

What are we supposed to take as research on Ji?  Who wrote the accurate, non-misquoted information?  

Sean, you claim Ji made the statement that he was "Hapkido's Founder" before the death of Choi Dojunim, can you provide a reference?

Please understand I am not trying to make this a personal thing, but the published information simply does not jive with what is often said, then re-quoted.  And, unlike the petulant foot stomping from your member from Hawaii, I am actually interested in published information you can provide.

So let's start with an article published in April, 1985 in BLACK BELT Magazine.  It is interesting to note that the article was written by Jane Hallander, who is well known as an author of articles about Kuk Sool Won/Suh In Hyuk; so she was no stranger to historical storytelling.  This article is interesting in that it is noted that Ji did not change the hand techniques of Choi Dojunim, but rather added kicking and philosophy, and his brand of breathing techniques.  There is no mention that he is the Founder of Hapkido, or anything about Taoist Lee or Grandma...

Taoist Lee and Grandma - no one else in Korea ever trained under/learned under them?  There is not a single photograph of these two incredibly important people?  Ji's family had some money, so why no photos? Even if they were expensive.  

Let's jump to some online material:

Is this from your website Sean?

_Ji, Han Jae was born in 1936 in Andong, Korea. His family moved to Sun  Yang, China when he was one year old. He attended school there until  1945 when his family returned to Andong. He began his martial arts  training in Yawara a few years later with Choi, Yung Sul at the age of  13. The techniques he learned at this time were primarily joint locks,  throws, low kicks, and sword techniques. For part of this time he was  living in a house he had built himself and was working for 10 months as  an architect for City Hall. He trained full time with Choi until 1956  when he moved back to his home city of Andong from Seoul._


_When Ji was eighteen, he began to train with a man he used to refer to  as Taoist Lee. Lee was Ji&#8217;s Samrangdo instructor and he used the term  &#8220;Taoist&#8221; when he first arrived in the US because it was the closest word  he could find to describe Lee. Lee trained Ji, Han Jae primarily in  mediation, the use of the Jang-Bong (6' staff), the Dan-Bong (short  stick), and in Korean Taek-Kyun or Tek Gi yun, kicking. Many of the  drills that Ji was doing at this time are similar to plyometrics used in  sports today._

So we are led to believe that Ji was an architect before age 20 in which city?

So, did Ji start training with Taoist Lee before he left Choi Dojunim's training?  This all seems very fragmented.

An almost identical, more complete version seems to appear here...http://www.worldsinmoohapkidofederation.com/history.html - is this closer to an accurate story?  Although it does contain some interesting items, such as why Ji wanted to return to Korea in May 1984, but his passport/visa were expired, and he was unable to stay in Korea??  This makes no sense, as a Korean native, he would hardly need a visa to return home.  Then, apparently with the same expired passport he traveled back into the US and to other countries...that is very inconsistent.  Again, a small issue, but just for clarity.


----------



## iron_ox

Glenn,

I feel no gratitude for the person that to me has done far more damage to Hapkido than he has helped it.  And apparently I am in good company as SO many of Ji's students claimed Choi Dojunim as their teacher, why is that?  Does Confucian social belief outstrip simple respect??  Ji has made a career out of founding or co-founding organizations he then leaves for what are often described as "political reasons" - creating what appear to be power vacuums and in my opinion is partially what has led to ongoing belief that Hapkido is a catch all martial art massively divided into multiple factions.  Since so many of his contemporaries knew he was not the "Founder", Ji never commanded the authority needed to keep the art unified even as he promoted it, thus further creating fragmentation.
And as far as calling me names, Ji is far more disrespectful for trying to make claims only after Choi Dojunim passed away.


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> I feel no gratitude for the person that to me has done far more damage to Hapkido than he has helped it.  And apparently I am in good company as SO many of Ji's students claimed Choi Dojunim as their teacher, why is that?  Does Confucian social belief outstrip simple respect??  Ji has made a career out of founding or co-founding organizations he then leaves for what are often described as "political reasons" - creating what appear to be power vacuums and in my opinion is partially what has led to ongoing belief that Hapkido is a catch all martial art massively divided into multiple factions.  Since so many of his contemporaries knew he was not the "Founder", Ji never commanded the authority needed to keep the art unified even as he promoted it, thus further creating fragmentation. And as far as calling me names, Ji is far more disrespectful for trying to make claims only after Choi Dojunim passed away.



If you feel so strongly about it, then perhaps you should go tell that to him to his face. He travels to Chicago often enough.


----------



## iron_ox

puunui said:


> If you feel so strongly about it, then perhaps you should go tell that to him to his face. He travels to Chicago often enough.



Is he going to come clean if he is confronted?  Probably not.  So, not worth anyone's time.


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> Is he going to come clean if he is confronted?  Probably not.  So, not worth anyone's time.



You never know until you go and see for yourself.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

yorkshirelad said:


> My Hapkido teacher. Massan Ghorbani began his Hapkido training in , I believe 1991 or 1992, by 1996 he was promoted to 6th Dan. A similar time frame can be seen with Jurg Ziegler of Switzerland. Both of these gentlemen are now 10th Dan, and, along with GM Young and GM McKenzie will ensure the art survives into the next generation as Ji envisions it.



In regards to your instructor, what warranted him going from white belt to 6th Dan in 4-5 years?  Did he progress through each and every rank or was there ranks that were skipped.  

Thank you.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> Hey Sean, I wouldn't worry about it. To me, the comments you are responding to come from people who have not yet come to the realization that if it weren't for GM Ji, they would have never heard of hapkido and therefore would not be practicing it today.



I don't think this is quite an accurate statement.  I would say that Grandmaster Bong Soo Han would better fit this designation, particularly with his work on the Billy Jack films which put Hapkido before the American/Western audience.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> I don't think this is quite an accurate statement.  I would say that Grandmaster Bong Soo Han would better fit this designation, particularly with his work on the Billy Jack films which put Hapkido before the American/Western audience.



And GM Ji was GM Han's teacher from white belt, and GM Han received all his hapkido rank from GM Ji.


----------



## mastercole

Originally Posted by *Kong Soo Do* 


_I don't think this is quite an accurate statement. I would say that Grandmaster Bong Soo Han would better fit this designation, particularly with his work on the Billy Jack films which put Hapkido before the American/Western audience._



puunui said:


> And GM Ji was GM Han's teacher from white belt, and GM Han received all his hapkido rank from GM Ji.


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


>



I mean really, where do people think those hapkido kicks in Billy Jack came from, GM CHOI Yong Sul? And GM Han's best selling Hapkido book from ohara features mostly kicking techniques. GM Ji or his direct students also taught the Hong Kong movie actors and actresses hapkido, especially hapkido kicking, which were featured in those movies.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> And GM Ji was GM Han's teacher from white belt, and GM Han received all his hapkido rank from GM Ji.



Your statement isn't in context with the previous statement that you made Glenn. Your previous statement was;



> Hey Sean, I wouldn't worry about it. To me, the comments you are responding to come from people who have not yet come to the realization that if it weren't for GM Ji, *they would have never heard of hapkido and therefore would not be practicing it today*.



Has nothing to do with who 'ranked' who. GM Han was responsible, through his involvement in the BJ films, for putting the art of Hapkido out there before the western audience. If Ji hadn't taught him, somebody else would have as Ji wasn't the only student of Choi. And whereas lots of people have never heard of Ji, lots of people have at least a passing familiarity with Billy Jack, and by extension, GM Han.

This takes nothing away from GM Ji, but as I mentioned, he wasn't the only one receiving training from Choi. He may or may not have coined the term 'Hapkido' depending upon whom you wish to believe, but there are certainly other well known Hapkido folks out there that aren't under his umbrella.

BTW why does your account say, 'Restricted Access'?  What does that mean?


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Has nothing to do with who 'ranked' who. GM Han was responsible, through his involvement in the BJ films, for putting the art of Hapkido out there before the western audience. If Ji hadn't taught him, somebody else would have as Ji wasn't the only student of Choi.



You are just being argumentative,and that is why I choose not to respond to your posts, because you don't bring any facts to the table and just go forward with your flawed logic. If GM Ji did not teach GM Han, then he wouldn't have learned the hapkido kicks that GM Ji invented, kicks which were featured in the Billy Jack films.GM Ji was GM Han's direct and only teacher, unless you count a couple of seminars that were given by GM Choi at GM Ji's dojang which GM Han attended.  When GM Ji first moved to the United States, GM Han and some other of his senior instructors held a meeting with GM Ji, just prior to the interview that black belt magazine was conducting. They all begged GM Ji not to tell the truth about Hapkido's history, that they were in fact his direct students and not GM CHOI Yong Sul like they had been telling people for years. When asked why they had lied about that, GM Han stated he felt ashamed that his primary hapkido teacher was four years younger than he, and he felt that the public would not appreciate or understand that. During that time when he first came to the US, pretty much every major hapkido practitioner you could think of either came to visit or called. I still have the business cards of those who came by to visit and it's like a who's who of hapkido.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> You are just being argumentative,and that is why I choose not to respond to your posts, because you don't bring any facts to the table and just go forward with your flawed logic.



I think you've been misreading my posts Glenn, no argument intended.  We just don't agree on some things.  I think perhaps your making an excuse for not answering some direct questions I've asked.  But that is okay as well, your fully entitled to remain silent if you wish.  Fortunately, I've found other resources that did provide clarity on several things.

I appreciate your input in the thread thus far, even if I can't support your position on some things.


----------



## iron_ox

These kicks?


























I'm asking first before I comment on this collection...


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> These kicks?



Those are basic kicks. I was thinking more of the special kicks, the ones that in your opinion do not conform to GM Choi's conception of hapkido. By the way, the practitioners in those videos, Ivan and Scott, are excellent martial artists. I was there when that was filmed at one of GM Godwin's many dojang.


----------



## mastercole

Kevin, maybe I am wrong but it seems to me, an outsider of sorts, that you feel your instructor is more authentic, or somehow better than most, maybe based on his claim to have trained longer with GM Choi, maybe on other things.

How do we know who the best Hapkidoin are?  Is there some kind of test of skills where one defeated the other, ect?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

mastercole said:


> Kevin, maybe I am wrong but it seems to me, an outsider of sorts, that you feel your instructor is more authentic, or somehow better than most, maybe based on his claim to have trained longer with GM Choi, maybe on other things.
> 
> How do we know who the best Hapkidoin are?  Is there some kind of test of skills where one defeated the other, ect?



That's kind of silly Al.  It is perfectly natural, given a positive experience, to think of one's instructor in a positive light.  Glenn does it all the time Ad nauseam.  However, that being said, this thread doesn't need to be derailed with a 'my instructor vs. your instructor' drift.  The topic is GM JI.  To which, so far it has been determined that he had an exceedingly short training time in the arts to reach a high level of Dan grading.  That his student, in an administrative position and with very little actual training, promoted his instructor to this rank in this short period of time.  That isn't stated for or against GM Ji, it is just stated as factual history.  In this way, a person can make their own informed decision on whether or not his training time justified his rank.  On whether or not a student with limited training can promote his own instructor.  And on whether the emphasis in Koreans arts, from certain seniors tends to be more rank-driven that other ethnic arts by some of the examples given.  

We can also widen the discussion about the kicks GM Ji has allegedly 'invented'.  I'd like to here Glenn's explanation of the 'special' kicks that he claims GM Ji 'invented'.  By using the term 'invented', Glenn is implying that these kicks have never been used in any art prior to GM Ji.  I'd like to hear more about that.  Thank you Glenn, in advance for providing more in-depth detail on these kicks.  

Also, as a side note to the accelerated time in which it took for GM Ji to reach his 8th and 9th Dan, I really think the ranking structure of Glenn's organization needs to be examined.  This will provide an excellent comparison of how GM Ji, and other seniors compare with those, like Glenn, that have risen through the ranks after them.  How similar was it?  How did it differ?  Was testing the same or has it evolved over the decades?  This can provide valuable data for all of us into how aspects of Hapkido within Glenn's organization have changed/stayed the same.  Glenn, I'm sure you wouldn't mind, as a student of GM Ji, to expound a bit for us.  Since it took GM Ji around 16 years or so to reach 8th Dan and a few more years to reach 9th Dan, how does that compare with the time it took you to reach 9th Dan under him?  How long did it take you to reach this level?  Also, how long did you directly train with GM Ji?  I'm sure it was a wonderful experience for you.  Thank you in advance for expounding on this as well.  

And thank you to everyone for their participation in the thread and their efforts to make it a great and informative thread.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> Those are basic kicks. I was thinking more of the special kicks, the ones that in your opinion do not conform to GM Choi's conception of hapkido.


How much involvement did Kim Moo Hong have in hapkido kicking development?  I had heard (don't ask me where) that he and GM Ji developed the kicks together and that Kim Moo Hong was instrumental in their development and was apparently a more proficient kicker.  Is that correct or is that off base?

Thank you


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> This came up in the TKD section, but I wanted to re-post it here where it was more forum-specific.
> 
> 
> GM Ji Han Jae was born in 1936 and didn't begin  under Choi, Yung Sul until the age of 13.  So, doing a little math, he  was an 8th Dan within 16 years.
> 
> 
> Who ranked JI Han Jae to 8th Dan?
> Is 16 years of training enough to reach this level, in your opinion?  Why or why not?


Apparently, Mr. Park based on what I read in this thread.   As for the second bullet point, it depends greatly on what the criteria are for grades of that level.  Is there a physical test?  Is it based on your owning a school?  More than one school?  How many students you've promoted?  If you financed the GM's dojang or financed his efforts (Elvis Presley with regards to Kang Rhee and Ed Parker respectively)?  

How about skipping from green belt to black belt with probably over two decades of inactivity between the two belts?  If you are the president of your nation's strongest ally and trading partner who is visiting your nation on a good will tour (President Obama), such a promotion is a nice touch, along with a dobok.

Rank is issued for all kinds of reasons.  So long as it isn't being bought and sold or self appointed in some weird way, I don't concern myself with whether or not someone has the time in for the grade they were awarded.

As far as GM Ji is concerned, he's far more qualified than I and I will not contest or question whether he is deserving of his rank, either in face to face conversation or on an internet forum.  He is the founder of Sin Moo Hapkido and the art has stood the test of time.  I leave it at that.


----------



## iron_ox

mastercole said:


> Kevin, maybe I am wrong but it seems to me, an outsider of sorts, that you feel your instructor is more authentic, or somehow better than most, maybe based on his claim to have trained longer with GM Choi, maybe on other things.
> 
> How do we know who the best Hapkidoin are?  Is there some kind of test of skills where one defeated the other, ect?



Master Cole,

Yes, you are wrong. Please do not derail this thread.  It is about Ji.  I do not include Grandmaster Lim, or any other teacher I have had in any discussions not directly related to them.  I have never made such a statement, or engaged in such silliness as a discussion of "who defeated who".

Getting back on track folks....


----------



## mastercole

iron_ox said:


> Master Cole,
> 
> Yes, you are wrong. Please do not derail this thread.  It is about Ji.  I do not include Grandmaster Lim, or any other teacher I have had in any discussions not directly related to them.  I have never made such a statement, or engaged in such silliness as a discussion of "who defeated who".
> 
> Getting back on track folks....



Don't panic, I am just asking questions. If need be, I'll start a new thread for my other questions.  Ok?   So then are you and your webpage claiming directly, or indirectly that GM Ji is lying about his martial arts history?   Thanks


----------



## iron_ox

puunui said:


> Those are basic kicks. I was thinking more of the special kicks, the ones that in your opinion do not conform to GM Choi's conception of hapkido. By the way, the practitioners in those videos, Ivan and Scott, are excellent martial artists. I was there when that was filmed at one of GM Godwin's many dojang.



Can you please point me to where I can find the special kicks?  Perhaps a public video, if not maybe a list oir partial list, I have seen mention that there are 29 of them.


----------



## iron_ox

Daniel Sullivan said:


> How much involvement did Kim Moo Hong have in hapkido kicking development?  I had heard (don't ask me where) that he and GM Ji developed the kicks together and that Kim Moo Hong was instrumental in their development and was apparently a more proficient kicker.  Is that correct or is that off base?
> 
> Thank you



Good question.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> If GM Ji did not teach GM Han, then he wouldn't have learned the hapkido kicks that GM Ji invented...





			
				Kong Soo Do said:
			
		

> We can also widen the discussion about the kicks GM Ji has allegedly  'invented'.  I'd like to here Glenn's explanation of the 'special' kicks  that he claims GM Ji 'invented'.  By using the term 'invented', Glenn  is implying that these kicks have never been used in any art prior to GM  Ji.  I'd like to hear more about that.  Thank you Glenn, in advance for  providing more in-depth detail on these kicks.



I wanted to make sure this question didn't get lost in the shuffle.  I'd like to see these special kicks that were invented by GM Ji.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:
			
		

> GM Ji said that LEE Do Sa was a taoist monk and also a "tae ki li yon"  teacher. I asked him if he meant Taekkyon and he said the name again. He  wrote it out in hangul for me and I still have that piece of paper. I  will try and dig it out and you can ask your taekkyon teacher about it.
> 
> So maybe it might be incorrect to say that GM Ji "invented" those kicks,  at least the basic kicks. "Included" might be a better word. He does  say that he learned kicking from LEE Do Sa, so there is that.



Ah, so then Ji cannot be credited with the actual invention of any kicks in Hapkido, at least 'basic' kicks as you say.  Does this then imply that there are 'advanced' kicks that he did invent?  If so, what are they?  How many?  When did he invent them?  What separates them from kicks in other arts that predate Hapkido?  Also, by stating that LEE Do Sa, a Taoist monk taught him kicking, we can also surmise that others knew and taught these kicks as well and there are not unique or original to Hapkido.  Unless you are stating that LEE Do Sa invented these kicks as well and that they are unique and original in the arts and no other art incorporates them.  

History always makes for interesting conversation.  I look forward to more detailed explanations Glenn.  Thank you.


----------



## leadleg

Kong Soo Do said:


> I don't think this is quite an accurate statement.  I would say that Grandmaster Bong Soo Han would better fit this designation, particularly with his work on the Billy Jack films which put Hapkido before the American/Western audience.



Yes you are right that Billy Jack was probably the first chance for some of us to see some Hapkido, but nowadays it is hard to find anyone under 50 who has heard of that movie. Now Bruce Lee with Doju Ji Han Jae everyone has seen.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

leadleg said:


> Yes you are right that Billy Jack was probably the first chance for some of us to see some Hapkido, but nowadays it is hard to find anyone under 50 who has heard of that movie. Now Bruce Lee with Doju Ji Han Jae everyone has seen.



But because of BJ, a whole generation was introduced to Hapkido.  As a result, interest in the art here in the west took off by leaps and bounds.  One instance in which Hollywood did something positive.

In regards to Bruce Lee and Ji Han Jae, I'm assuming you're talking about 'Game of Death'?  Unfortunately, this movie was mangled after the passing of Lee.  A lot of footage surfaced later fortunately.  However, Jae did not represent Hapkido in that film.  He was actually portrayed as a Chin Na master according to the screen play and the vision of Bruce Lee.  Hapkido was represented by one of the guys that were with Lee and was continually getting his butt kicked.  In fact, Jae as the Chin Na master thoroughly defeated the Hapkido master.  So anyone outside of the art of Hapkido would probably not know what role Ji played in Hapkido from this movie.  In fact, if anything they'd think his art was Chin Na.


----------



## mastercole

leadleg said:


> Yes you are right that Billy Jack was probably the first chance for some of us to see some Hapkido, but nowadays it is hard to find anyone under 50 who has heard of that movie. Now Bruce Lee with Doju Ji Han Jae everyone has seen.



It's hard to recall that movie, I barely remember any of it. Actually, I was never into martial arts movies at all. I can remember the Bruce Lee nunchuku scene and some fake fight he had with Chuck Norris in Rome. People always come up to me and say "I bet you loved that Steven Segal/Van Damm/Ninja Turtle movie" when I have to say "not really, I don't watch those kind of films"

I did however watch all the original first series of Kung Fu and Kurosawa's Samurai films, but it was not so much for the techniques, but the story, culture and cinematography of Kurosawa's films. As a kid I liked Master Po, and the other masters' philosophy.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

mastercole said:


> I did however watch all the original first series of Kung Fu and Kurosawa's Samurai films, but it was not so much for the techniques, but the story, culture and cinematography of Kurosawa's films. As a kid I liked Master Po, and the other masters' philosophy.



I very much enjoyed them as well, particularly Kung Fu.  I sometimes wonder what the series would have been like had Bruce Lee been allowed to star in it rather than David Carradine.  Although there was Hollywood mixed into it of course, many of the actual skills, training and tests demonstrated in the show did have a basis in historical fact.


----------



## iron_ox

Kong Soo Do said:


> Ah, so then Ji cannot be credited with the actual invention of any kicks in Hapkido, at least 'basic' kicks as you say.  Does this then imply that there are 'advanced' kicks that he did invent?  If so, what are they?  How many?  When did he invent them?  What separates them from kicks in other arts that predate Hapkido?  Also, by stating that LEE Do Sa, a Taoist monk taught him kicking, we can also surmise that others knew and taught these kicks as well and there are not unique or original to Hapkido.  Unless you are stating that LEE Do Sa invented these kicks as well and that they are unique and original in the arts and no other art incorporates them.
> 
> History always makes for interesting conversation.  I look forward to more detailed explanations Glenn.  Thank you.



I agree.


----------



## mastercole

iron_ox said:


> These kicks?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm asking first before I comment on this collection...



Waiting on your comments on these guys.............


----------



## Kong Soo Do

mastercole said:


> Waiting on your comments on these guys.............



I believe Glenn stated these were basic kicks and not the advanced ones of which he was referring.  It is these advanced kicks that Ji invented that would be interesting to view and discuss from both a tactical and a historical perspective.  Thank you.


----------



## iron_ox

mastercole said:


> Waiting on your comments on these guys.............



I was told these were only the "basic" kicks, I am still waiting on any information on the "special" kicks that were said to have been invented.  Did I say I was going to comment "on those guys"?  Silly comment, again.


----------



## mastercole

iron_ox said:


> I was told these were only the "basic" kicks, I am still waiting on any information on the "special" kicks that were said to have been invented.  Did I say I was going to comment "on those guys"?  Silly comment, again.



I did not think your comment was silly, why would you?  Here is what you wrote AFTER posting this videos. "_I'm asking first before I comment on this collection..."

It seemed you were going to "comment on this collection" in which "those guys" were kicking. _


----------



## iron_ox

mastercole said:


> I did not think your comment was silly, why would you?  Here is what you wrote AFTER posting this videos. "_I'm asking first before I comment on this collection..."
> 
> It seemed you were going to "comment on this collection" in which "those guys" were kicking. _




Can you address the "special kicks" - you seem to keep asking questions like you can


----------



## mastercole

iron_ox said:


> Can you address the "special kicks" - you seem to keep asking questions like you can



What specific questions did I ask that would bring to such a thought?


----------



## RobinTKD

I'm not doubting the validity or effectiveness of those kicks, but god they look ugly, as well as looking like they would eventually destroy your knees. I'm sorry I have nothing more constructive to say.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

In Al's defense, he has come forth and stated he is a novice Hapkidoin.  He isn't likely to know the difference between the basic and more advanced kicks as he has likely not been exposed to them.  Glenn is the go-to man on this question since he is a 9th Dan under Ji.  I'm disappointed that he has yet to respond to the question.  I would encourage him to perhaps even make a video and post it in the thread.  Like I mentioned, a conversation on the tactical and historical perspectives of these advance kicks would be tremendously interesting.  Not to put any demands or pressure on Glenn, but you brought it up and you've really piqued my curiosity on this.  Thank you in advance.


----------



## iron_ox

RobinTKD said:


> I'm not doubting the validity or effectiveness of those kicks, but god they look ugly, as well as looking like they would eventually destroy your knees. I'm sorry I have nothing more constructive to say.



That is a very good question. Good comment.


----------



## iron_ox

Kong Soo Do said:


> In Al's defense, he has come forth and stated he is a novice Hapkidoin.  He isn't likely to know the difference between the basic and more advanced kicks as he has likely not been exposed to them.  Glenn is the go-to man on this question since he is a 9th Dan under Ji.  I'm disappointed that he has yet to respond to the question.  I would encourage him to perhaps even make a video and post it in the thread.  Like I mentioned, a conversation on the tactical and historical perspectives of these advance kicks would be tremendously interesting.  Not to put any demands or pressure on Glenn, but you brought it up and you've really piqued my curiosity on this.  Thank you in advance.



I do think it seems a little disingenuous to create 6 or 7 threads acting like one is looking for Hapkido when in fact the same person has a Sin Moo 9th dan as a good friend.  And given the fact that mastercole says he can travel or host, seems like his logical choice is to get something going with his 9th dan friend.

But despite that, let's get back to the discussion at hand.


----------



## mastercole

iron_ox said:


> I do think it seems a little disingenuous to create 6 or 7 threads acting like one is looking for Hapkido when in fact the same person has a Sin Moo 9th dan as a good friend.  And given the fact that mastercole says he can travel or host, seems like his logical choice is to get something going with his 9th dan friend.



Kevin, wow, why all this concern about puunui?  Relax, it's cool, you can either share Hapkido information with me, or I can just go learning it from your teacher myself, directly. I don't see what all the secretive stuff is about.

I have known puunui for years, many people I know have known him longer. He is one of the most knowledgeable and skilled martial artist that I know. The thing is he never once had this idea that he is the best, or even that GM Ji was the best. He never tried to sell me on such a thing. He is a good guide and has always pointed people in the right direction. Actually, if it was not for him, I might not have gotten involved with Taekkyon. Anyway, he already suggested that I should consider going to see GM ji, but he also said don't just take his word for it and to look around and see who else is out there in order to make an educated guess.


----------



## mastercole

_






 Originally Posted by *puunui* 


If you wish to learn about GM Ji's special kicks, then my suggestion is to seek him out personally and go learn them from him directly.

_

"I think that is excellent advise, so much so that I will do it myself. Since I have a sort of renewed interest in Hapkido, I should seek out the best in world and in my travels all over the world I have always heard when it comes to Hapkido that GM Ji is among the best teachers. Anyone have a differing opinion about GM Ji?"


----------



## Kong Soo Do

I think Glenn has given you some excellent advice, from a first-hand perspective.  I think you would indeed by wise to take it up.  I hope that it is everything that you are looking for in training.  I also think Glenn is perhaps being too modest and that you might be wise to take a trip out to the Islands for a visit.


----------



## iron_ox

puunui said:


> Those are basic kicks. I was thinking more of the special kicks, the ones that in your opinion do not conform to GM Choi's conception of hapkido. By the way, the practitioners in those videos, Ivan and Scott, are excellent martial artists. I was there when that was filmed at one of GM Godwin's many dojang.



These were kicks Glenn said he was thinking of...and now cannot provide any information about, I guess.  I am guessing these were the kicks that were attributed as being "invented" - at first - although that appears to have been redacted to "learned from Taoist Lee" - so I am really not sure which kicking we are supposed to attribute here, the basic kicks? The special kicks (now not invented but learned elsewhere and added) or is there another group that are not yet part of the discussion?


----------



## mastercole

iron_ox said:


> These were kicks Glenn said he was thinking of...and now cannot provide any information about, I guess.  I am guessing these were the kicks that were attributed as being "invented" - at first - although that appears to have been redacted to "learned from Taoist Lee" - so I am really not sure which kicking we are supposed to attribute here, the basic kicks? The special kicks (now not invented but learned elsewhere and added) or is there another group that are not yet part of the discussion?



Does not appear that way to me. I see kicking skills in Sin Moo Hapkido that are not found in Taekwondo or Taekkyon. So I'll go with the idea that GM Ji invented them.

It will be interesting to hear what GM Ji has to say about that, then compare it with what GM Lim has to say. I wonder if either of them will agree with you.


----------



## iron_ox

puunui said:


> So maybe it might be incorrect to say that GM Ji "invented" those kicks, at least the basic kicks. "Included" might be a better word. He does say that he learned kicking from LEE Do Sa, so there is that.



Can any Sin Moo people elaborate on this?  I am not sure at this point which kicks we should actually attribute as invented, learned, similar, identical.


----------



## iron_ox

There was much made of this type of quote, this is from The Courier. Friday, April 19, 1991  Volume 24, No. 20, and this is only part of the quote - referring to kicking: _"Certain hapkido techniques differ greatly from other types of fighting arts.  For example, most arts teach kicks that lean into the strike.  However, Ji instructs his students to lean away from the kick.  Ji is credited with the creation of spin kicks.  Only spin kicks off the right foot are used because Ji believes power comes from moving in a clockwise motion.  Reference is given to a passage in the Bible, in which Joshua brought down the walls of Jericho by walking clockwise around the city."_

I have seen similar quotes often, but nothing is referred to here yet.


----------



## mastercole

iron_ox said:


> Can any Sin Moo people elaborate on this?  I am not sure at this point which kicks we should actually attribute as invented, learned, similar, identical.



Maybe it's like saying one invented Kuhapdo, but yet they use a Katana and it looks very Samurai. Is that what you are talking about?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

mastercole said:


> Maybe it's like saying one invented Kuhapdo, but yet they use a Katana and it looks very Samurai. Is that what you are talking about?


Kuhapdo = Korean iaido, and is in fact the Korean pronunciation of iaido's kanji.  The same way that 'kumdo' is the Korean pronunciation of kendo's kanji.  Haven't a clue as to who is credited with putting kuhapdo together though.


----------



## zDom

mastercole said:


> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *puunui*
> 
> 
> If you wish to learn about GM Ji's special kicks, then my suggestion is to seek him out personally and go learn them from him directly.
> 
> _
> "I think that is excellent advise, so much so that I will do it myself. Since I have a sort of renewed interest in Hapkido, I should seek out the best in world and in my travels all over the world I have always heard when it comes to Hapkido that GM Ji is among the best teachers. Anyone have a differing opinion about GM Ji?"



I am a man of modest income. So when I look for a burger, I look for the best burger around in town. Maybe if I was a rich man I might go on a quest to find the World's Best Burger.

I found a great hapkido instructor teaching a great hapkido curriculum in the immediate area and consider myself fortunate to have been afforded the opportunity to train regularly in Moo Sul Kwan hapkido. But if my instructor died and I was rich and able to fly around the globe and train with the best? Yep, I would probably look into seeing if I could study with Ji Han Jae.




mastercole said:


> Does not appear that way to me. I see kicking skills in Sin Moo Hapkido that are not found in Taekwondo or Taekkyon. So I'll go with the idea that GM Ji invented them.



I see some kicks I haven't seen elsewhere. Many of those basic kicks linked in this thread are quite similar to what we do at Moo Sul Kwan. My guess is that they were at least co-invented or co-researched by Kim Mu-yung (or however you want to spell it). Perhaps Ji might have come up with a few all on his own and Kim saw them as useful and added them to his list to use and teach. I bet Ji did the same with a few from Kim.



iron_ox said:


> Can any Sin Moo people elaborate on this?  I am not sure at this point which kicks we should actually attribute as invented, learned, similar, identical.



Now, that would take some time, wouldn't it? But the results could make a nice chapter in a "history of hapkido." Would be a lot of conjecture and speculation involved, I reckon.



iron_ox said:


> There was much made of this type of quote, this is from The Courier. Friday, April 19, 1991  Volume 24, No. 20, and this is only part of the quote - referring to kicking: _"Certain hapkido techniques differ greatly from other types of fighting arts.  For example, most arts teach kicks that lean into the strike.  However, Ji instructs his students to lean away from the kick.  Ji is credited with the creation of spin kicks.  Only spin kicks off the right foot are used because Ji believes power comes from moving in a clockwise motion.  Reference is given to a passage in the Bible, in which Joshua brought down the walls of Jericho by walking clockwise around the city."_
> 
> I have seen similar quotes often, but nothing is referred to here yet.



We don't lean away from kicks just to lean away from them. High side kicks and round kicks, for example, require the upper body to drop somewhat but we try to stay us upright as possible. Leaning compromises balance and we are always very conscious of compromising our balance as it provides openings to be thrown.

The idea that Ji "invented" spin kicks is... difficult to accept.

Restricting myself to only clockwise kicks is ... not something I would ever want to do. I've hit bags, body shields and people pretty hard spinning counterclockwise, fwiw.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

zDom said:


> The idea that Ji "invented" spin kicks is... difficult to accept.
> 
> Restricting myself to only clockwise kicks is ... not something I would ever want to do. I've hit bags, body shields and people pretty hard spinning counterclockwise, fwiw.



I agree with these points that you've brought up.  Particularly the clockwise-only kicks.  This is unsound from a technical as well as tactic perspective.  A Hapkido practitioner cannot always foresee the position they may be in during or prior to an attack.  By limiting a defense to only one direction cuts down on options.  Additionally, it doesn't take into consideration any disability or injury that may be present or has occurred.  Effective defensive techniques need to take into account more than one angle or direction of implementation to ensure the highest % of success.  

At this point, I think it is safe to say that the kicks Ji may have included weren't invented by him.  Their level of effectiveness is up for debate.  This is not stated 'against' the man, but I think any suggestion to the extent that he has invented something unique in the world of martial arts is perhaps a bit on the Urban Legend side of things.  Examples of these advanced 'invented' and/or 'included' kicks have been requested for 3 pages now.  I don't foresee anything coming of that as there has been no attempt to substantiate that particular claim.  So it is what it is and time to continue the thread along other lines, particularly TIG standards for some branches of Hapkido.  

As has been demonstrated in this thread, Ji obtained 8th Dan in his 20's after around 16 years of training.  Yorkshire's instructor achieved 6th Dan after about 4 years of training.  They appear to be in the same branch of Hapkido.  I'm not pointing fingers or hoisting the red flag warning, simply restating what has already been stated for further discussion.  Too me, it looks like some seriously short TIG or serious skips at the Dan level.  So the question comes up, how does this stack up to other branches of Hapkido?  

Thank you again to all participants and those that have been willing to provide transparency for examination.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> At this point, I think it is safe to say that the kicks Ji may have included weren't invented by him.  Their level of effectiveness is up for debate.  This is not stated 'against' the man, but I think any suggestion to the extent that he has invented something unique in the world of martial arts is perhaps a bit on the Urban Legend side of things.  Examples of these advanced 'invented' and/or 'included' kicks have been requested for 3 pages now.  I don't foresee anything coming of that as there has been no attempt to substantiate that particular claim.  So it is what it is and time to continue the thread along other lines, particularly TIG standards for some branches of Hapkido.


Everything that anyone invents in martial arts has likely been invented by someone else at some point previously.  Happens a lot in music too.  People are often unaware of just how much their influences play in the creation of their new opus.  Sometimes, different artists will write songs that sound similar because they are both in the same music scene and have a lot of the same influences and are into the same sound.

Doesn't make any of their work less original.  I'm not going to speculate as to whether or not Ji invented his kicks, collaborated in their invention, or has simply repackaged and 'hapkido-ized' existing kicks.  The kicks are in his branch of hapkido and likely will be associated with him as a result.  



Kong Soo Do said:


> As has been demonstrated in this thread, Ji obtained 8th Dan in his 20's after around 16 years of training.  Yorkshire's instructor achieved 6th Dan after about 4 years of training.  They appear to be in the same branch of Hapkido.  I'm not pointing fingers or hoisting the red flag warning, simply restating what has already been stated for further discussion.  Too me, it looks like some seriously short TIG or serious skips at the Dan level.  So the question comes up, how does this stack up to other branches of Hapkido?


Let's be clear: you _are_ pointing fingers and hoisting the red flag warning.  You may not see it that way, but ultimately, that is exactly what you are doing.  And the fact that you are repeating what someone else said elsewhere doesn't change that.  

Secondly, rapid advancement in young arts is hardly uncommon (less than fifty years old = young art).  As I said earlier, rank is issued for a variety of reasons.  Sometimes, it is issued because it is believed that the recipient of the rank has responsibilities that make it necessary to give him or her the authority that comes with rank.  Judo sports at least one who was the topic of another thread (one about a 21 year old rokkudan).  

I generally find that those (speaking generally, not of anyone specifically) who are shouting the loudest about the rank of others are seeking to justify own rank, either directly or indirectly.  

That doesn't mean that they are unworthy of their rank; perhaps they are ranked by an unaffiliated sensei/sabeom and feel that those who's grades are with established federations look down at them (being graded in both hapkido and kendo by unaffiliated schools, I can certainly relate to that).  Perhaps they have some kind of rank-inferiority complex.  Perhaps they feel slighted if anyone gets their faster or at a younger age than themselves.  Who knows?

  Hapkido, regardless of which branch, is now over fifty years old and has stood up to decades of scrutiny.  

I can understand questioning the veracity of the rank of some under 40 year old gudan running a McDojo.  Going after GM Ji's rank, however, is just pointless, particularly at this juncture.


----------



## leadleg

A lot of organisations have no time in grade restrictions/requirements. If you meet their requirements for say, 4th then why would you not be awarded a 4th? If it is your org. and you award someone a 4th you need at least a 5th. The belt issue is forced on some people and orgs.
 I remember at one point combat hapkido was to have no belts, but later used them to keep up.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Everything that anyone invents in martial arts has likely been invented by someone else at some point previously.  Happens a lot in music too.  People are often unaware of just how much their influences play in the creation of their new opus.  Sometimes, different artists will write songs that sound similar because they are both in the same music scene and have a lot of the same influences and are into the same sound.
> 
> Doesn't make any of their work less original.  I'm not going to speculate as to whether or not Ji invented his kicks, collaborated in their invention, or has simply repackaged and 'hapkido-ized' existing kicks.  The kicks are in his branch of hapkido and likely will be associated with him as a result.



I cannot accept your comparison Daniel.  There are only so many ways to kick based upon human anatomy.  Music however has an infinite variety.  The idea that Ji 'invented' kicks is not really a serious consideration.  



> Let's be clear: you _are_ pointing fingers and hoisting the red flag warning...



Let's be clear:  your wrong.  If I have a direct issue with something, you'll know about it in a very upfront, direct way.  You should know that from some of our previous conversations.  If a frank discussion is to ensue on matters of rank, TIG, time in the arts, age etc then we need to examine what has been done, why it was done, the level of validity it holds and how it effects future considerations.  

Again, I cannot accept your premise on the development of Hapkido ranking in this branch (Ji).  Although it is a done deal now, it can still be examined for validity.  And it doesn't follow the trend of arts that came before it, generally speaking.  Using Uechi Ryu as just one example, Kannei trained for close to three decades before accepting the Dan/Kyu system and taking his rightful place on top.  Don't quote me on a precise time line, I'd have to check dates.  From memory, he began training in the early 20's and the Dan/Kyu system wasn't accepted in the art until the mid to late 50's.  What I see, generally speaking is much more training/teaching time from Seniors in Okiwawan arts than that of Korean arts.  It isn't 'pointing fingers' to simply state the factual obvious.  That doesn't degrade the Koreans, but sets up a different dynamic to consider.  Nothing more, nothing less. 

This is, after all, a discussion board.  Conversations don't progress by beating around the bush.  They don't progress by stating things as factual yet never providing evidence to substantiate the statement.  The progress by factual discussion of the facts as they surface.  Different opinions will arise and that is fine.  But at least intelligent, informed opinions can be formed.

In regards to Ji personally, I've weighed in on both sides of the validity issue with candid observations.  That isn't pointing fingers, it is examining things from various angles.  I don't always agree with you Daniel, but your opinion is respected.  I'd like to see you also weigh in on both sides as well as others.

Thank you.


----------



## puunui

zDom said:


> The idea that Ji "invented" spin kicks is... difficult to accept.



If it wasn't him, then who did?


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> There was much made of this type of quote, this is from The Courier. Friday, April 19, 1991  Volume 24, No. 20, and this is only part of the quote - referring to kicking: _"Certain hapkido techniques differ greatly from other types of fighting arts.  For example, most arts teach kicks that lean into the strike.  However, Ji instructs his students to lean away from the kick.  Ji is credited with the creation of spin kicks.  Only spin kicks off the right foot are used because Ji believes power comes from moving in a clockwise motion.  Reference is given to a passage in the Bible, in which Joshua brought down the walls of Jericho by walking clockwise around the city."_
> 
> I have seen similar quotes often, but nothing is referred to here yet.



that quote is not entirely accurate as far as GM Ji's philosophy goes. Again, if you wish to learn what GM Ji teaches and why, then my suggestion is to go see him directly yourself. He is not that far from you and frankly, I am surprised that you haven't already seen him. He has also given seminars in Chicago. Did you take advantage of those opportunities to see for yourself?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

> Originally Posted by *zDom*
> 
> 
> 
> The idea that Ji "invented" spin kicks is... difficult to accept.





puunui said:


> If it wasn't him, then who did?



Gee whiz Glenn, you're the one that stated as fact that GM Ji invented (your words) advance kicks for Hapkido.  You're a 9th Dan under GM JI with firsthand knowledge of these 'invented, advanced kicks'.  Yet when questioned about it, and asked to substantiate your own statements...you disappear from the thread!  Rather than answer the question directly here, in another thread you put in a side note that, 'well...maybe invented isn't the right word.  Maybe 'included'.  Once again, you're the 9th Dan under GM Ji...so which is it?  Now you're acting like you don't know yourself, which begs the question, why did you state such a thing as fact on page 3 and then disappear until page 6?

Your M.O. is getting tiresome Glenn.  You've done that here, in other Hapkido threads, in the general section with Chris Parker, in the TKD section on numerous threads etc.  Don't state something as factual if you are unable or unwilling to back it up.  Some of us are serious here and don't think it's a big game or a joke.  If information is offered as factual, I'd like to see it, evaluate it and learn from it.  That's what the board is all about.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Gee whiz Glenn, you're the one that stated as fact that GM Ji invented (your words) advance kicks for Hapkido.  You're a 9th Dan under GM JI with firsthand knowledge of these 'invented, advanced kicks'.  Yet when questioned about it, and asked to substantiate your own statements...you disappear from the thread!  Rather than answer the question directly here, in another thread you put in a side note that, 'well...maybe invented isn't the right word.  Maybe 'included'.  Once again, you're the 9th Dan under GM Ji...so which is it?  Now you're acting like you don't know yourself, which begs the question, why did you state such a thing as fact on page 3 and then disappear until page 6?



Well, if you really need to know, I have been busy taking care of my father. It has been a difficult weekend.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> I cannot accept your comparison Daniel.  There are only so many ways to kick based upon human anatomy.  Music however has an infinite variety.


Which reinforces my point, the limits of how the human body can move make it much more likely for different people to 'invent' the same techniques.

Most techniques that have existed in more than one style for longer than the history of those styles exist because people figured them out and built on them rather than because one group got it from another.  So the idea that an innovator may 'invent' kicks that already exist in some form is well within reason.  And 'invent' may be as simple as, 'hey, I was practicing some stuff and came up with this.'  Then the kicks were credifted to him by his juniors in the art.  Outside of hapkido, nobody cares.  

I posed a question earlier regarding GM Ji's and Kim Mu Hong's part in development of hapkido kicks.  It still hasn't been answered, but that probably has more to do with the volume of posts on this thread than with any concerted effort to avoid it.



Kong Soo Do said:


> The idea that Ji 'invented' kicks is not really a serious consideration.


Then why is it being discussed over multiple pages?



Kong Soo Do said:


> Let's be clear:  your wrong.  If I have a direct issue with something, you'll know about it in a very upfront, direct way.  You should know that from some of our previous conversations.  If a frank discussion is to ensue on matters of rank, TIG, time in the arts, age etc then we need to examine what has been done, why it was done, the level of validity it holds and how it effects future considerations.


Let me put it another way; when you (general you, not you specifically)pick out a specific person and their art and state publicly that their rank is questionable due to either who it was that issued it or how long they have been training, that _does_ have the effect of pointing fingers or raising a red flag.

*Edit:* which is probably how I should have phrased it to you.  Rereading my previous post, it does kind of come off as harsh.  Apologies.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Again, I cannot accept your premise on the development of Hapkido ranking in this branch (Ji).  Although it is a done deal now, it can still be examined for validity.


What premise is that?  I haven't given a premise about GM Ji's rank.  I made some general comments about why higher rank may be issued.  

I don't know the peculiarities of GM Ji's advancement well enough to formulate a premise either.  Besides, it seems that how he was ranked and by whom has been covered in this thread; a Mister Park (8th dan if I recall) and GM Myung (10th dan if I recall).



Kong Soo Do said:


> And it doesn't follow the trend of arts that came before it, generally speaking.  Using Uechi Ryu as just one example, Kannei trained for close to three decades before accepting the Dan/Kyu system and taking his rightful place on top.  Don't quote me on a precise time line, I'd have to check dates.  From memory, he began training in the early 20's and the Dan/Kyu system wasn't accepted in the art until the mid to late 50's.


That hapkido employed the kyu/dan system earlier in its history than uechi ryu has no bearing on the validity of GM Ji's or anyone else's grade.



Kong Soo Do said:


> What I see, generally speaking is much more training/teaching time from Seniors in Okiwawan arts than that of Korean arts.  It isn't 'pointing fingers' to simply state the factual obvious.  That doesn't degrade the Koreans, but sets up a different dynamic to consider.  Nothing more, nothing less.


Again, the differences between Okinwan and Korean arts with regards to time in grade has no bearing on the validity of GM Ji's or anyone else's grade.

Not to mention that grading standards vary from art to art within a nation, and from style to style within an art.  



Kong Soo Do said:


> This is, after all, a discussion board.  Conversations don't progress by beating around the bush.  They don't progress by stating things as factual yet never providing evidence to substantiate the statement.  The progress by factual discussion of the facts as they surface.  Different opinions will arise and that is fine.  But at least intelligent, informed opinions can be formed.


While I agree, the only real debate here seems to be with regards to whether or not GM Ji invented kicks.  I haven't seen any debate about the time period for his rank, his age at the time he received it, or whether or not it was issued by Choi Dojunim.  Nor does there seem to be any debate as to whether or not Sin Moo Hapkido is legitimate or is hapkido.  

It really comes down to opinion: do you feel that based on the available facts that GM Ji is worthy of paldan?  Either you do or you don't.  Given that the man is in his eighties and his art is beyond being well established, I personally feel that the point is rather moot.

One question that I have for anyone who can answer it is this: when were the current time in grade standards (one year per current dan or one year per next dan) and general acceptable age minimums introduced?  And when were they introduced to hapkido?



Kong Soo Do said:


> In regards to Ji personally, I've weighed in on both sides of the validity issue with candid observations.  That isn't pointing fingers, it is examining things from various angles.  I don't always agree with you Daniel, but your opinion is respected.  I'd like to see you also weigh in on both sides as well as others.


I've weighed in about as much as I am going to with regards to GM Ji personally.  You may notice that most of my comments are speculative; '_perhaps it was for this reason, perhaps for that reason, rank is issued for a variety of reasons, etc._'  I don't train in Sin Moo Hapkido, and my knowledge of hapkido history is what I call a working history.  Meaning that I know the overall gist of it and have more details in some areas than in others.


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I posed a question earlier regarding GM Ji's and Kim Mu Hong's part in development of hapkido kicks.  It still hasn't been answered, but that probably has more to do with the volume of posts on this thread than with any concerted effort to avoid it.



It was answered, by me, somewhere. Lots of threads going at the moment.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> It was answered, by me, somewhere. Lots of threads going at the moment.



There's that as well.  I didn't see it.  I'll have to look again.  Hope your dad is alright.


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> There's that as well.  I didn't see it.  I'll have to look again.



it's in the development of hapkido kicking techniques thread.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> it's in the development of hapkido kicking techniques thread.



Wow!!  A thread just for my question!  Thanks!


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> Well, if you really need to know, I have been busy taking care of my father. It has been a difficult weekend.



And yet you've had time to post 57 times in other threads just since Saturday....


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Then why is it being discussed over multiple pages?



Simply look for something of substance from the person that stated the original premise.  


> Let me put it another way; when you (general you, not you specifically)pick  out a specific person and their art and state publicly that their rank  is questionable due to either who it was that issued it or how long they  have been training, that _does_ have the effect of pointing fingers or raising a red flag.



Interesting point, did you ever mention this to Glenn the many times he's done the same thing?  Or can some people look at this topic and some can't?  How about a level playing field for one and all.



> That hapkido employed the kyu/dan system earlier in its history than  uechi ryu has no bearing on the validity of GM Ji's or anyone else's  grade.



Sure it does, by way of comparison between arts, cultures, various seniors and their motiviation(s).



> While I agree, the only real debate here seems to be with regards to  whether or not GM Ji invented kicks.  I haven't seen any debate about  the time period for his rank, his age at the time he received it, or  whether or not it was issued by Choi Dojunim.  Nor does there seem to be  any debate as to whether or not Sin Moo Hapkido is legitimate or is  hapkido.



Doesn't necessarily require debate as much as discussion, which occurred early on.  As I've mentioned, I've weighed in on both sides with comments and observations.  Others have as well.  The question on the development of 'advanced' kicks could have served to add merit to his accomplishments.  But that isn't the case here now.  So really, it is back to whether or not someone in their mid-20's with around 16 years of training really warrants an 8th Dan.  If so, why?  If not, why?  And yes, we can compare it to other arts as in some way, shape or form they are interconnected.  

To further the discussion, not counting the earlier mentioned individual that went from white belt to 6th Dan in 4 years, using at least the semi-recognized standard of perhaps 1 year per Dan level for TIG i.e. 1st to 2nd = 1 year, 2nd to 3rd = 3 years etc, GM Ji would have been around a 5th Dan.  Give or take.  Since he was the 'founder' (a term I'm using loosely), everyone else would have been under him in TIG/TIA.  So if he is a 'founder', why not just go to 10th?  Why not progress in a natural progression as anyone else would be expected to do?  Is accelerated TIG permissible for a founder?  Should they just assume the top position without any progression?  And if it was done then...why would anyone have a problem with it now?

There, the discussion is back on track


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> And yet you've had time to post 57 times in other threads just since Saturday....



Hardly, but if you don't like it, then I suggest that you take a trip to Pennsylvania and go ask GM Ji himself about which kicks he invented. Or you can go check out the sinmoo hapkido clubs that are in and around your area in Florida.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

It appears that will be my only resource for information on these 'advance' kicks I suppose.  Hopefully they will be a little more forthcoming that you have been.  

And yes, it was 57 times, I counted.  But even with that, I wish the very best for you and your father.  And that is meant sincerely.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> It appears that will be my only resource for information on these 'advance' kicks I suppose.  Hopefully they will be a little more forthcoming that you have been.



I don't have to answer your questions, just like you haven't answered mine. If you wish to receive answers, then give answers.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> I don't have to answer your questions, just like you haven't answered mine. If you wish to receive answers, then give answers.



Are you serious!?!  You've started multiple threads about me, my art, my rank, my instructor etc and I've entered each and everyone and discussed, in detail with the exception of the one thread the moderator closed before I saw it.  I even invited you on to my own board to discuss each and everything in the closed thread to your hearts content.  You declined!

I've answered more than enough questions from you.  But for some reason, it is super-secret how long you've been training in HKD, how long it took you to make 9th Dan, or discuss invented/included/basic/advanced kicks...which you brought into the thread in the first place.

Good gravy you take the cake.:BSmeter:


----------



## iron_ox

puunui said:


> that quote is not entirely accurate as far as GM Ji's philosophy goes.



From another 9th dan of Ji, Ian Cyrus in his paper titled "History of Hapkido, A perspective"  - "_He made specific reference to the spin kick which in his view, should only be executed with the right leg (foot) with the contra-lateral palm touching the floor._"

Is this more accurate? Without the Biblical Reference that is?

This invented/created/learned kicking issue is something that you brought up Glenn - I asked for a reference to the kicks you mentioned were not the basic ones.

It appears that the spinning kicks are not wholly part of the "Basic 25", so is it accurate that Ji invented these kicks, and if turning clockwise is not important, why does this get quoted so much?


----------



## iron_ox

Kong Soo Do said:


> Are you serious!?!  You've started multiple threads about me, my art, my rank, my instructor etc and I've entered each and everyone and discussed, in detail with the exception of the one thread the moderator closed before I saw it.  I even invited you on to my own board to discuss each and everything in the closed thread to your hearts content.  You declined!
> 
> I've answered more than enough questions from you.  But for some reason, it is super-secret how long you've been training in HKD, how long it took you to make 9th Dan, or discuss invented/included/basic/advanced kicks...which you brought into the thread in the first place.
> 
> Good gravy you take the cake.:BSmeter:



There seems to be a pattern emerging with Glenn if he thinks you are discussing anything he does not approve of...


----------



## mastercole

iron_ox said:


> From another 9th dan of Ji, Ian Cyrus in his paper titled "History of Hapkido, A perspective"  - "_He made specific reference to the spin kick which in his view, should only be executed with the right leg (foot) with the contra-lateral palm touching the floor._"
> 
> Is this more accurate? Without the Biblical Reference that is?
> 
> This invented/created/learned kicking issue is something that you brought up Glenn - I asked for a reference to the kicks you mentioned were not the basic ones.
> 
> It appears that the spinning kicks are not wholly part of the "Basic 25", so is it accurate that Ji invented these kicks, and if turning clockwise is not important, why does this get quoted so much?



Why do you expect people to answer your questions when you don't answer theirs?


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> There seems to be a pattern emerging with Glenn if he thinks you are discussing anything he does not approve of...



Actually it is your pattern. There are several threads going on regarding your Hapkido teacher GM Lim. Are you planning on joining in the discussion?


----------



## iron_ox

mastercole said:


> Why do you expect people to answer your questions when you don't answer theirs?



Ad hominem argument.  

Glenn continues to assert things about invention, special kicking, misinterpreted statements, incomplete statements, then no follow up. So the inquiry most likely will continue despite the efforts to derail the thread.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Are you serious!?!



Yes, I'm serious. For example, we still don't know who taught you hapkido, what kind of hapkido you learned, when you started, etc. We do know that you claim that you can use the name hapkido if you wanted to, and that in your opinion, there is no difference between hapkido, chin na or "aikijutsu", which probably means that you never learned the hapkido kicks. That makes sense, since you are asking about what special kicks are included in hapkido. If you were a practitioner of hapkido, you would know the answer to that question, instead of constantly bothering me about it. But then again, if you don't wish to answer these questions, it's ok. That's why I don't bother asking you any questions anymore. You just won't answer. And the reason why I choose not to answer any of your questions is that you are not sincere about it and only want to make more arguments against GM Ji. You don't need me to criticize him.


----------



## mastercole

iron_ox said:


> Ad hominem argument.
> 
> Glenn continues to assert things about invention, special kicking, misinterpreted statements, incomplete statements, then no follow up. So the inquiry most likely will continue despite the efforts to derail the thread.



Truth is truth. You have a history of avoiding questions


----------



## mastercole

Originally Posted by *Kong Soo Do* 


_Are you serious!?!_



puunui said:


> Yes, I'm serious. For example, we still don't know who taught you hapkido, what kind of hapkido you learned, when you started, etc. We do know that you claim that you can use the name hapkido if you wanted to, and that in your opinion, there is no difference between hapkido, chin na or "aikijutsu", which probably means that you never learned the hapkido kicks. That makes sense, since you are asking about what special kicks are included in hapkido. If you were a practitioner of hapkido, you would know the answer to that question, instead of constantly bothering me about it. But then again, if you don't wish to answer these questions, it's ok. That's why I don't bother asking you any questions anymore. You just won't answer. And the reason why I choose not to answer any of your questions is that you are not sincere about it and only want to make more arguments against GM Ji. You don't need me to criticize him.



Exactly 

Funny when you ask questions about some peoples background in a style they claim to practice, and better yet teach, and all you get is "let's take it to PM"

ROFLMAO


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> Glenn continues to assert things about invention, special kicking, misinterpreted statements, incomplete statements, then no follow up. So the inquiry most likely will continue despite the efforts to derail the thread.



Again, if you want answers to your questions, go ask GM Ji directly. There have been plenty of answers to your questions, until it became obvious that your agenda is to continue to personally attack GM Ji. Saying that I don't answer questions, especially those involving the korean martial arts, really doesn't fly, because I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who gives more factual information regarding these subjects than I do on MT. Maybe mastercole equals or surpasses the amount of information presented.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> Again, if you want answers to your questions, go ask GM Ji directly. There have been plenty of answers to your questions, until it became obvious that your agenda is to continue to personally attack GM Ji. Saying that I don't answer questions, especially those involving the korean martial arts, really doesn't fly, because I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who gives more factual information regarding these subjects than I do on MT. Maybe mastercole equals or surpasses the amount of information presented.



That was a kind compliment, but I don't think I am at the level yet 

For some folks it can be a scary thing to go into something deeply, or discuss directly with the source. What they discover can completely change what they think and for some, that is a very scary thought.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

*Gentlemen, stick to the original topic.

You want to bicker like old married folks, do it elsewhere.

You'll note the absence of the word 'please' as this is not a request.*


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Kong Soo Do said:


> This came up in the TKD section, but I wanted to re-post it here where it was more forum-specific.
> 
> 
> GM Ji Han Jae was born in 1936 and didn't begin under Choi, Yung Sul until the age of 13. So, doing a little math, he was an 8th Dan within 16 years.
> 
> 
> Who ranked JI Han Jae to 8th Dan?
> Is 16 years of training enough to reach this level, in your opinion? Why or why not?



Since this has been a long running thread, above is the original questions.  The first has been answered;  one of his students with limited Hapkido training was given an administrative post and in return promoted his own instructor.  So the history question is answered.

I've weighed in on both sides of the second question with observations.  Additional information came by way of Yorshire who commented on an instructor (I'd have to go back and check the name, but it is in this thread) in Hapkido that went from white belt to 6th Dan in 4-5 years.  From what I understand, it is within the same branch of Hapkido as GM Ji.  

So the second question can be broadened into;  is 16 years of training enough for 8th Dan (while in your mid-20's)?  And is 4-5 years enough to go from white belt to 6th Dan?  Additionally, was this a case of seriously short TIG or was this a case of skipping Dan grades?  How does this compare with the overall Hapkido community?  

Thank you.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> Interesting point, did you ever mention this to Glenn the many times he's done the same thing?  Or can some people look at this topic and some can't?  How about a level playing field for one and all.


This isn't about my policing your posts and not his; you explicitly said that you were not pointing fingers or raising red flags.  I disagree.  That isn't a criticism; people point fingers and raise red flags all the time.  GM Ji is a public figure.  He runs a large organization.  His rank isn't secret, nor is the way in which is was obtained.  Thus it is open to public discussion and if someone wants to point fingers or raise red flags then so be it.  If you are going to start your own branch of a martial art and run a large organization, that sort of thing is part of the job.

If you are referring to the back and forth that the two of you have been having for the past two years, I'm not touching that.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Sure it does, by way of comparison between arts, cultures, various seniors and their motiviation(s).


No, it doesn't.  For one, this topic is not about comparison of Ji as an eighth dan to Kano as an eighth dan; it is about whether or not Ji's eighth dan is valid within the context of hapkido.  You called attention to the rapidity of Ji's promotion and then made comments about his branch of hapkido and asked about how it stacks up with other branches of hapkido.  

For another, comparison of rank between completely different arts, while certainly a valid topic of discussion, is in no way related to the validity of rank issued within a given art.  



Kong Soo Do said:


> So really, it is back to whether or not someone in their mid-20's with around 16 years of training really warrants an 8th Dan.  If so, why?  If not, why?  And yes, we can compare it to other arts as in some way, shape or form they are interconnected.


That is basically what it comes down to.  Though while there is a general interconnectedness between arts, it is not in such a way that it would be relevant in this discussion.  What would be relevant is to look at grading norms of the Korean arts of the day.  



Kong Soo Do said:


> To further the discussion, not counting the earlier mentioned individual that went from white belt to 6th Dan in 4 years, using at least the semi-recognized standard of perhaps 1 year per Dan level for TIG i.e. 1st to 2nd = 1 year, 2nd to 3rd = 3 years etc, GM Ji would have been around a 5th Dan.  Give or take.


I had asked this question in my previous response: were the time  in  grade 'norms' that we are familiar with in place at that time?




Kong Soo Do said:


> Since he was the 'founder' (a term I'm using loosely), everyone else would have been under him in TIG/TIA.  So if he is a 'founder', why not just go to 10th?


Not all arts have a tenth dan and not all that do designate tenth dan as  founder/soke/head of system.  For example, KKW Taekwondo has a tenth dan ranking,  but it is unrelated to being a founder or head of the system.  



Kong Soo Do said:


> Why not progress in a natural progression as anyone else would be expected to do?  Is accelerated TIG permissible for a founder?  Should they just assume the top position without any progression?  And if it was done then...why would anyone have a problem with it now?


If you found a system, you are beyond rank.  You may assign yourself any rank you wish.  Its like asking if a kid out of high school who 'founds' his own business has the right to call himself president of the company without having gone through the stages of employee, assistant manager, manager, district manager, regional manager, divisional VP, and VP before assigning himself the title.  

Now, whether or not he's qualified to run a business is another matter, and only time will tell; the business will either be successful or will fold.  

Back to GM Ji, was it permissible for him to do what he did?  Sure.  Its basically what Kano and Bruce Lee did; Lee just didn't used dan grades.  You could do the same.  And I'd base my opinion of you as head of your system on your ability to practice your system and on the soundness of your system.

Dan grades ultimately are arbitrary.  They are set to represent a specific level of training and responsibility, but that level varries from art to art and from organization to organization within an art.  

So the real question is not how long it took GM Ji to go from zero to eighth dan.  The question is how sound is Sin Moo hapkido and how effective has GM Ji been over the past several decades in his capacity as head of Sin Moo hapkido.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> Since this has been a long running thread, above is the original questions.  The first has been answered;  one of his students with limited Hapkido training was given an administrative post and in return promoted his own instructor.  So the history question is answered.
> 
> I've weighed in on both sides of the second question with observations.  Additional information came by way of Yorshire who commented on an instructor (I'd have to go back and check the name, but it is in this thread) in Hapkido that went from white belt to 6th Dan in 4-5 years.  From what I understand, it is within the same branch of Hapkido as GM Ji.
> 
> So the second question can be broadened into;  is 16 years of training enough for 8th Dan (while in your mid-20's)?  And is 4-5 years enough to go from white belt to 6th Dan?  Additionally, was this a case of seriously short TIG or was this a case of skipping Dan grades?  How does this compare with the overall Hapkido community?
> 
> Thank you.


When arts are young, promotions tend to be rapid.  GM Ji and the Sin Moo instructor you reference above are hardly unique in this.  

Again, I ask, was the math that you are doing even relevant at the time?  Maybe it was, but if the general time in grade norms that you are invoking had not yet been established or had not become commonplace by that point, then it would not be.


----------



## mastercole

Daniel Sullivan said:


> When arts are young, promotions tend to be rapid.  GM Ji and the Sin Moo instructor you reference above are hardly unique in this.
> 
> Again, I ask, was the math that you are doing even relevant at the time?  Maybe it was, but if the general time in grade norms that you are invoking had not yet been established or had not become commonplace by that point, then it would not be.



The founder of a system can do with that system what they like, even when they keep creating and collapsing systems, over and over and over again


----------



## Kong Soo Do

mastercole said:


> The founder of a system can do with that system what they like, even when they keep creating and collapsing systems, over and over and over again



Ah, this is new information that I was unaware of.  How many systems did GM Ji create and collapse (presumabley before Hapkido)?  What do you have in the way of factual data to support these 'pre-Hapkido' systems?  Thank you.


----------



## iron_ox

Kong Soo Do said:


> Since this has been a long running thread, above is the original questions.  The first has been answered;  one of his students with limited Hapkido training was given an administrative post and in return promoted his own instructor.  So the history question is answered.



Except why does the "Founder" need to lest any grading dates, let alone those from his students as a timeline for advancement?



Kong Soo Do said:


> I've weighed in on both sides of the second question with observations.  Additional information came by way of Yorshire who commented on an instructor (I'd have to go back and check the name, but it is in this thread) in Hapkido that went from white belt to 6th Dan in 4-5 years.  From what I understand, it is within the same branch of Hapkido as GM Ji.



That would be Massan Ghorbani, who according to another published report was granted his 8th dan in 1998 - just two years later.



Kong Soo Do said:


> So the second question can be broadened into;  is 16 years of training enough for 8th Dan (while in your mid-20's)?  And is 4-5 years enough to go from white belt to 6th Dan?  Additionally, was this a case of seriously short TIG or was this a case of skipping Dan grades?  How does this compare with the overall Hapkido community?
> 
> Thank you.



It seems that even though Ji is claiming to be the founder of Hapkido, he is currently only concerned with ranking in Sin Moo, and there are other entities that rank outside of Sin Moo, apparently.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

iron_ox said:


> It seems that even though Ji is claiming to be the founder of Hapkido, he is currently only concerned with ranking in Sin Moo, and there are other entities that rank outside of Sin Moo, apparently.


Does he actually claim to be the founder of hapkido or just Sin Moo Hapkido?  I have heard people argue that they 'feel that he is the founder of hapkido' as we know it today, but that is different from GM Ji claiming to have founded the art himself.  

Maybe he did make the claim, which is why I'm asking, though I have never heard that he did so.


----------



## iron_ox

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Does he actually claim to be the founder of hapkido or just Sin Moo Hapkido?  I have heard people argue that they 'feel that he is the founder of hapkido' as we know it today, but that is different from GM Ji claiming to have founded the art himself.
> 
> Maybe he did make the claim, which is why I'm asking, though I have never heard that he did so.



How's this, from Taekwondo Times, a few quotes from the article he did with Chris Garland:  January, 2003 Issue

Q: Why did you merge your organization with the Korean Hapkido Association and the Korea Hapkido Association? 

Ji: _ Everything Hapkido originated from me. 
_
Q:  What was the purpose of this merger? 

Ji:  _To unify everything; to make one (Hapkido). There are too many  organizations. I want to unify everything and anyone that will follow  because I made Hapkido. 
_
Q:  Was there any movement in Korea to keep Hapkidoists from creating their own style? 

Ji:  _No, everything is from my style._

Does that answer your query?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Sure.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

iron_ox said:


> That would be Massan Ghorbani, who according to another published report was granted his 8th dan in 1998 - just two years later.



Thank you.  I see that he is now a 9th Dan under GM Ji;

http://www.sinmoohapkido.eu/en/organization/technical_committee/massan/

http://massanghorbanimasterstemple.com/about.php

According to his profile page, though he had prior experience in the arts, nothing relating to Hapkido or similar training.  Again, just to satisfy Daniel (wink), I'm not pointing a finger and saying he (or anyone) has done something wrong.  But in connection with GM Ji, it appears that the road to 9th Dan in SM HKD isn't nearly as long as what one would expect given TIG/TIA of other arts.  I'm curious as to how wide-spead this accelearated rate is within the SM HKD community or if it is only certain people.  And if it is only certain individuals, what was/is the determining factor on this fast-track?  Certainly I've not seen this in other branches of Hapkido.  It would be nice if other SM HKD teachers/practitioner would chime in with their perspective on this.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> Thank you.  I see that he is now a 9th Dan under GM Ji;
> 
> http://www.sinmoohapkido.eu/en/organization/technical_committee/massan/
> 
> http://massanghorbanimasterstemple.com/about.php
> 
> According to his profile page, though he had prior experience in the arts, nothing relating to Hapkido or similar training.  Again, just to satisfy Daniel (wink), I'm not pointing a finger and saying he (or anyone) has done something wrong.


Don't worry about satisfying me; if you have criticism of GM Ji, feel free to voice it.  I had said that I thought questioning his rank at this stage is pointless, but I'm certainly not offended.

For the record, raising red flags isn't necessarily bad; it means that there is something that stands out which may or may not be problematic.  I consider one year to black belt in a US TKD school to be a red flag.  A red flag, not because it is inherently wrong or bad, but because in the US, it is not normative.  Apparently it is normative in Korea.  The red flag would mean that I would want to look at why the school owner is promoting at that pace and would want to see what the school's first dan students look like.  If they look like advanced beginners and the school owner is portraying them as such, then I would consider the matter closed.  If he's touting them as instructor level masters, then I'm walking out.

And I'm still waiting for someone to address my question as to whether or not the current time in grade norms were established at that time.



Kong Soo Do said:


> But in connection with GM Ji, it appears that the road to 9th Dan in SM HKD isn't nearly as long as what one would expect given TIG/TIA of other arts.  I'm curious as to how wide-spead this accelearated rate is within the SM HKD community or if it is only certain people.  And if it is only certain individuals, what was/is the determining factor on this fast-track?  Certainly I've not seen this in other branches of Hapkido.


Probably they were key people in his organization whom he wished to invest a level of responsibility that required the authority that comes with rank.



Kong Soo Do said:


> It would be nice if other SM HKD teachers/practitioner would chime in with their perspective on this.


Agreed.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Probably they were key people in his organization whom he wished to invest a level of responsibility that required the authority that comes with rank.



I understand what you're saying here, but it brings up the question of favoritism or cronyism.  Not leveling that charge, but bringing it up for consideration.  Investing a level of responsibility doesn't equate necessarily to skill level.  Additionally, it doesn't seem quite fair to someone training, that is perhaps better, but not in a position to 'assist' the organization (read: financially) that doesn't rise as quickly.  Again, not leveling that charge, but bringing it up for consideration.  We're talking about a total of 8 years to go from white to 8th Dan.  I don't know when 9th Dan came in, but 8 years for 8th Dan is...well...I guess that is a pretty big red flag if we're honestly looking at things.


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Probably they were key people in his organization whom he wished to invest a level of responsibility that required the authority that comes with rank.



By the way, iron ox's instructor started hapkido in 1965 and in 1983 was promoted to 9th Dan, which is 18 years. GM Ji was 8th Dan after 18 years. Just in case you wish to compare.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> I understand what you're saying here, but it brings up the question of favoritism or cronyism.  Not leveling that charge, but bringing it up for consideration.  Investing a level of responsibility doesn't equate necessarily to skill level.  Additionally, it doesn't seem quite fair to someone training, that is perhaps better, but not in a position to 'assist' the organization (read: financially) that doesn't rise as quickly.  Again, not leveling that charge, but bringing it up for consideration.  We're talking about a total of 8 years to go from white to 8th Dan.  I don't know when 9th Dan came in, but 8 years for 8th Dan is...well...I guess that is a pretty big red flag if we're honestly looking at things.


Rank isn't always about skill level.  Or about martial skill level.  There are a lot of skills necessary to running an organization that have little or nothing to do with one's martial prowess.  Not everyone can construct curriculum.  Not everyone can organize schools and events, or communicate material.  As an instructor, I'm sure that you are aware of this.

Ultimately, you need to look at the system and its GM as a GM.  I really don't care how long he or she takes to get to their rank, particularly in a forty-plus year old organization which has had the same GM for its entire existence.  If you like what you see in the system and if you like what you see at the school, and if you feel comfortable with the instructional staff and training environment, then its probably a good fit.  

In this case, I see red flag.  I look at the big picture; thriving art and viable art.  Art has stood the test of time thus far.  GM seems to know what he's doing.  Then I look at the school.  If everything looks good and I like the environment, then I consider the issue closed.  

Others may feel differently, and that is certainly their prerogative.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Rank isn't always about skill level.  Or about martial skill level.  There are a lot of skills necessary to running an organization that have little or nothing to do with one's martial prowess.  Not everyone can construct curriculum.  Not everyone can organize schools and events, or communicate material.  As an instructor, I'm sure that you are aware of this.



I understand the point your making, and it is valid.  I would hope that it is a reason such as this.  One thing though, you've now go me curious as to the one year/per each Dan grade steps and when they came into general practice.  I'm going to have to check into that.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

iron_ox said:


> How's this, from Taekwondo Times, a few quotes from the article he did with Chris Garland: January, 2003 Issue
> 
> Q: Why did you merge your organization with the Korean Hapkido Association and the Korea Hapkido Association?
> 
> Ji: _Everything Hapkido originated from me.
> _
> Q: What was the purpose of this merger?
> 
> Ji: _To unify everything; to make one (Hapkido). There are too many organizations. I want to unify everything and anyone that will follow because I made Hapkido.
> _
> Q: Was there any movement in Korea to keep Hapkidoists from creating their own style?
> 
> Ji: _No, everything is from my style._
> 
> Does that answer your query?



This has gotten me interested to go back and look at some of the interviews that Marc Tedeschi included in his book on Hapkido.  If I remember correctly, there were some differing viewpoints.  I'd like to see what they were about and from whom.


----------



## iron_ox

Kong Soo Do said:


> This has gotten me interested to go back and look at some of the interviews that Marc Tedeschi included in his book on Hapkido.  If I remember correctly, there were some differing viewpoints.  I'd like to see what they were about and from whom.



Although I have read everything in the Tedeschi book, I would be interested in what it has to say.  Here is a link to a now almost 8 year old thread on some of the same issues we are discussing now...long thread, some 24 pages I think, and I don't think a MOD was called in a single time...might be an interesting read for some...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?17798-Hapkido-Q-amp-A-s


----------



## iron_ox

iron_ox said:


> Although I have read everything in the Tedeschi book, I would be interested in what it has to say.  Here is a link to a now almost 8 year old thread on some of the same issues we are discussing now...long thread, some 24 pages I think, and I don't think a MOD was called in a single time...might be an interesting read for some...
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?17798-Hapkido-Q-amp-A-s



Sorry, bad proofreading, I was trying to say I would be interested in what others thought of the Tedeschi information about this topic, I do not a copy of the book, so I don't recall off hand with any certainly what it does say.


----------



## andyjeffries

Am I the only person that finds all the references in this thread to just "Ji" very disrespectful?  I think that people who have earned valid titles should have them used.  If you are friends with someone, then call them by their first name.  If not then refer to them as Mr Smith, Grandmaster Smith, GM Smith or Dojunim Smith (Smith-dojunim) - not just Smith.

I'm sure GM Ji doesn't really care that much, but come on guys, we're martial artists.  I'm sure you can all disagree until you're blue in the face about whether GM Ji did or did not invent Hapkido kicks and whether he was worth an 8th Dan in the TIF he had, but surely we can all appreciate he's a great martial artist and is worth speaking about with respect?!

FWIW, I don't do Hapkido (I am interested in it and did it for about a year every second/third week - but that's not enough to consider myself "doing" it) but I wouldn't refer to my Taekwondo seniors just by their last name so I don't feel it's right to do it in this forum.  I'm also not saying that I want to be referred to as Master Jeffries - Andy is fine on here - just that using simply surnames is very impolite in normal English.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

I don't see where you're referring to this Andy?  Unless you mean the TKDT quote above, which is TKDT and not any member here.  It may have been done here in the thread, but I don't think it was intentional disrespect.  I may have missed it here and there, maybe, in all the posts but it wasn't meant in a disrespectful manner.


----------



## leadleg

I believe a major concern with time in grade as some are using is the years of training as opposed to hours of training. Some people train two to three times per week, one to three hours per session. What if you were training six times per week at six hours per day, would that not shorten time in grade substantially?


----------



## andyjeffries

Kong Soo Do said:


> I don't see where you're referring to this Andy?  Unless you mean the TKDT quote above, which is TKDT and not any member here.  It may have been done here in the thread, but I don't think it was intentional disrespect.  I may have missed it here and there, maybe, in all the posts but it wasn't meant in a disrespectful manner.



It's generally throughout the thread.  There are quite a few posts where people just use "Ji" without any title (even a polite "Mr").  Maybe I'm just sensitive to the issue (being English rather than American; we have different things that push our buttons).


----------



## American HKD

Greetings,

I'm a long time Korean Hapkido student in GM Ji's lineage and have been a direct student of GM Ji for about 10 years now.

Sinmoo is GM J's last evolution of Korean Hapkido. What GM Ji teaches in part came from Choi Yong Sul's Yawara as well as other sources like Tae Kyon kicking and Taoist and Buddhist meditations and philosophy.

The You Tube kicks someone posted are the 25 basic single kicks of Sinmoo. Those kick have seven other variations we also have combination kicking, spin kicking and flying kicks sometimes called special kicks.

The kicks are executed differently from TKD and Karate and may seem unique to many. I can tell you they are combat or self-defense oriented and very powerful. Also the people doing the kicks on the videos are good instructors and kick well according to our style.

As far as rank goes, rank is always subjective to the standards of the school or teacher and there is no such thing as X time to achieve X rank, it is all arbitrary. Many people can and do reach a high level rank in 15 years if they work hard and study. Many others do not.


----------



## zDom

American HKD said:


> As far as rank goes, rank is always subjective to the standards of the school or teacher and there is no such thing as X time to achieve X rank, it is all arbitrary ...



That's all fine and well as long as everybody remembers that.

But they don't.

I've already had someone suggest that my instructor doesn't think very highly of me because I am still first dan in hapkido.


----------



## iron_ox

andyjeffries said:


> It's generally throughout the thread.  There are quite a few posts where people just use "Ji" without any title (even a polite "Mr").  Maybe I'm just sensitive to the issue (being English rather than American; we have different things that push our buttons).



Would you find it disturbing if people that represented your art were less than honest about their position, rank, etc etc?  This thread in the Hapkido section is about someone that has had MULTIPLE things written that are far more than suspect.  From the rank listed on your signature I dare say you have been doing TKD a far bit; same with me and Hapkido.  I think you need to re-read the tread again and see what some of us are getting at.  A consistent, long standing, series of written information that is suspect - and in my opinion brings much of the art into question for those who might not have anything other than those articles/threads to rely upon for information.

All of the "go and meet him", "train with him", "understand his philosophy" rhetoric is missing the point entirely.  I could care less if he helps old ladies across the street, or saves kittens, it is what has been written in his name, and what continues to be written in his name that is of principle concern of this thread.  He has at least two websites where the "correct" story could be told - but this has never been done. 
Honorifics are the least important thing at stake in this thread.


----------



## iron_ox

American HKD said:


> Greetings,
> 
> I'm a long time Korean Hapkido student in GM Ji's lineage and have been a direct student of GM Ji for about 10 years now.
> 
> Sinmoo is GM J's last evolution of Korean Hapkido. What GM Ji teaches in part came from Choi Yong Sul's Yawara as well as other sources like Tae Kyon kicking and Taoist and Buddhist meditations and philosophy.
> 
> The You Tube kicks someone posted are the 25 basic single kicks of Sinmoo. Those kick have seven other variations we also have combination kicking, spin kicking and flying kicks sometimes called special kicks.
> 
> The kicks are executed differently from TKD and Karate and may seem unique to many. I can tell you they are combat or self-defense oriented and very powerful. Also the people doing the kicks on the videos are good instructors and kick well according to our style.
> 
> As far as rank goes, rank is always subjective to the standards of the school or teacher and there is no such thing as X time to achieve X rank, it is all arbitrary. Many people can and do reach a high level rank in 15 years if they work hard and study. Many others do not.



Hello Stuart,

And since our last discussion on this topic, almost a decade ago, do we have anything more definitive on either "Taoist Lee" or "Grandma"?  Names? Locations? Others that trained with these two of such skill?

In relation to the kicking, it now appears that Kim Moo-Hong - at least according to the sources in this thread - may have had nothing to do with the kicking as it has been related for years...

And as far as the rank, the speed seems less relevant that the fact that the last three ranks, which are referred to by number and date as "RANK" were actually issued by students...

Just things for thought.


----------



## American HKD

iron_ox said:


> Hello Stuart,
> 
> And since our last discussion on this topic, almost a decade ago, do we have anything more definitive on either "Taoist Lee" or "Grandma"?  Names? Locations? Others that trained with these two of such skill?
> 
> In relation to the kicking, it now appears that Kim Moo-Hong - at least according to the sources in this thread - may have had nothing to do with the kicking as it has been related for years...
> 
> And as far as the rank, the speed seems less relevant that the fact that the last three ranks, which are referred to by number and date as "RANK" were actually issued by students...
> 
> Just things for thought.



This is all I can gather and theorize from talking to GM and other senior Sinmoo masters.

It seems GM Ji and Kim worked together for less then a year as reported, however it's not clear who introduced what to the final kicking repertoire. Only Kim and Ji know for sure. They both were top Yawara students of Choi at that time and also were rivals in a sense. Ji says he learned the kick from Taoist Lee and from Choi (7 low kicks).


I believe due to lack of english GM Ji generically referred to the figures Taoist Lee and Grandma because both were Taoists. Lee was also a martial artists of unknown kind maybe native KMA. Its not clear if even GM Ji knows the exact style Taoist Lee practiced, Sam Rang Do maybe? GM Ji learned meditations and Chi Kung exercises from them and also a lot of self study. It also seems GM Ji was young when he encountered these Taoists and I'm not eve sure if etiquette allowed him to question them much.


There does seem some corroboration that GM Ji & Kim both received either their 7th from Choi through the KHA and at that time they were the highest ranked ever. 
It doesn't really matter I think because GM JI went his own direction and did not follow GM Choi's system in the pure sense as we know.

Sorry no real new news.


----------



## iron_ox

American HKD said:


> This is all I can gather and theorize from talking to GM and other senior Sinmoo masters.
> 
> It seems GM Ji and Kim worked together for less then a year as reported, however it's not clear who introduced what to the final kicking repertoire. Only Kim and Ji know for sure. They both were top Yawara students of Choi at that time and also were rivals in a sense. Ji says he learned the kick from Taoist Lee and from Choi (7 low kicks).
> 
> 
> I believe due to lack of english GM Ji generically referred to the figures Taoist Lee and Grandma because both were Taoists. Lee was also a martial artists of unknown kind maybe native KMA. Its not clear if even GM Ji knows the exact style Taoist Lee practiced, Sam Rang Do maybe? GM Ji learned meditations and Chi Kung exercises from them and also a lot of self study. It also seems GM Ji was young when he encountered these Taoists and I'm not eve sure if etiquette allowed him to question them much.
> 
> 
> There does seem some corroboration that GM Ji & Kim both received either their 7th from Choi through the KHA and at that time they were the highest ranked ever.
> It doesn't really matter I think because GM JI went his own direction and did not follow GM Choi's system in the pure sense as we know.
> 
> Sorry no real new news.



As always Stuart, it is a pleasure to have you respond.

I would love to get some definitive information on the ranks, maybe soon.

I have always been surprised that only one person has ever claimed to have taught by Taoist Lee and "Grandma" - by the 1950's film was readily available, as we have several pics from that ear of training in Seoul, but nothing of either of these two...

I asked about the kicks becasue of the famous quote about the invention of spinning kicks, and was curious if it was a specific spin kick, or all spin kicks...

As always, thanks Stuart.


----------



## American HKD

Oh

He does claim to have invented the spin heel kick. At the time it seems that early TSD was really Shotokan (no spin heel kick) and Tae Kyon did not use the spin kick eiher. His spin kick is also unique and looks a lot like Caparoia from Brazil and also similar to Indonisian Silat where they put their hand on the ground for support. Since that time there are many other variations that people do. In that context it seems hard to understand the claim he invented the kick, but in Korea in that era he did invent it, in Brazil he didn't.

GM Ji also claims to have invented the cane, hankerchief, etc. now I have seen others use a cane but GM Ji also has a unique style that even most Hapkidoin do not do. Most use the cane as a stick or club with a hook, GM uses the crook very specifically and it is not an easy style to master.

I also do not believe the two Taoists were renownly known per se or sought out by martial artists, after all how many people are serious Taoists or want to follow Taoist traditions? GM Ji claims his first meeting with Grandma was sort of by destiny and very personal.


----------



## iron_ox

American HKD said:


> Oh
> 
> He does claim to have invented the spin heel kick. At the time it seems that early TSD was really Shotokan (no spin heel kick) and Tae Kyon did not use the spin kick eiher. His spin kick is also unique and looks a lot like Caparoia from Brazil and also similar to Indonisian Silat where they put their hand on the ground for support. Since that time there are many other variations that people do. In that context it seems hard to understand the claim he invented the kick, but in Korea in that era he did invent it, in Brazil he didn't.
> 
> GM Ji also claims to have invented the cane, hankerchief, etc. now I have seen others use a cane but GM Ji also has a unique style that even most Hapkidoin do not do. Most use the cane as a stick or club with a hook, GM uses the crook very specifically and it is not an easy style to master.
> 
> I also do not believe the two Taoists were renownly known per se or sought out by martial artists, after all how many people are serious Taoists or want to follow Taoist traditions? GM Ji claims his first meeting with Grandma was sort of by destiny and very personal.



As always, thank you for your input.


----------



## chrispillertkd

andyjeffries said:


> It's generally throughout the thread. There are quite a few posts where people just use "Ji" without any title (even a polite "Mr"). Maybe I'm just sensitive to the issue (being English rather than American; we have different things that push our buttons).



FWIW, it doesn't bother me (of course, I'm not a student under GM Ji, nor a Hapkidoin  ). Look, in lots of scholarly works authors get referenced by their last names alone with no title. Same thing in the papers for politicians a lot of the time. It doesn't mean that the people doing so are purposefully trying to insult anyone. Generally, I'll use a title if a person is well known by it with some exceptions. For example, I don't call people "sensei" because they aren't _my_ sensei. If a person is going to be so offended that someone who isn't their student doesn't use a specific title when talking about them then the problem is with them, IMO.

On the other hand, it's not uncommon for people who recognize the mastery of a particular person to address them as Master even if they're in a different style. But is it required to do this? 
I imagine some Hapkidoin from GM Choi's lineage find it annoying or even disrespectful that people from GM Ji's line refer to "Yawara" instead of Hapkido whenever they mention GM CHoi's art.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## andyjeffries

iron_ox said:


> Would you find it disturbing if people that represented your art were less than honest about their position, rank, etc etc?



I would but I would still refer to them by using their respectful title if it was given by someone appropriate. As I understand it from later posts GM Ji's at least 7th Dan from GM Choi, so surely he at least deserves a Master title rather than just surname?  There are guys in the UK that I have heard obtained their current rank under less than ideal circumstances.  However, I still use the title that they have earned if it's given from a recognised authority.



iron_ox said:


> This thread in the Hapkido section is about someone that has had MULTIPLE things written that are far more than suspect.



And I have no knowledge about these things, so won't be getting involved in that.  It just irks me as it seems very rude referring to someone that has undoubtedly been studying martial arts long enough to have a respectful title by just their surname.  If people on here knew him personally and he'd said "it's fine, call me Han-jae" then I'd have no problem with them referring to him as "Han-jae", but unless that's the case then a title should be used even a "Mr" if you believed the rank and all their experience to be completely bogus.



iron_ox said:


> From the rank listed on your signature I dare say you have been doing TKD a far bit; same with me and Hapkido.  I think you need to re-read the tread again and see what some of us are getting at.  A consistent, long standing, series of written information that is suspect - and in my opinion brings much of the art into question for those who might not have anything other than those articles/threads to rely upon for information.



I don't know GM Ji at all, nor do I know whether things written are true, false or a bit of both - however, I still think he has done enough to be referred to with respect, as would any senior martial artist.


----------



## andyjeffries

chrispillertkd said:


> FWIW, it doesn't bother me (of course, I'm not a student under GM Ji, nor a Hapkidoin  ). Look, in lots of scholarly works authors get referenced by their last names alone with no title.



Are you seriously comparing an internet forum to a scholarly work ;-)



chrispillertkd said:


> Same thing in the papers for politicians a lot of the time.



I think it depends on the paper.  For example, the higher level newspapers generally use titles rather than just last names.  For example:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...is-party-over-referendum-on-Lords-reform.html

*Conservative MP Peter Bone* added: &#8220;We are told we can&#8217;t have a referendum on Europe because nobody is interested in it, which is nuts.
*Mr Bone*, MP for Wellingborough, said that the row &#8220;certainly could bring the coalition down&#8221; because feelings were running so high in the parliamentary party.

However, *Nick Clegg, the Deputy Prime Minister*, is set to inflame emotions further
A source close to *Mr Clegg* said that the Deputy Prime Minister did &#8220;not see the need for any referendum &#8211; it was all in their manifestos&#8221;.

Tabloid papers may just use last names, but then again is that really where we're setting the standard for writing?



chrispillertkd said:


> It doesn't mean that the people doing so are purposefully trying to insult anyone. Generally, I'll use a title if a person is well known by it with some exceptions. For example, I don't call people "sensei" because they aren't _my_ sensei. If a person is going to be so offended that someone who isn't their student doesn't use a specific title when talking about them then the problem is with them, IMO.
> 
> On the other hand, it's not uncommon for people who recognize the mastery of a particular person to address them as Master even if they're in a different style. But is it required to do this?



I don't think it's required, but it's polite or at least if you don't recognise their title to at least be respectful and use Mr.  Referring to someone by just their last name brings back memories of school when teachers would yell "Jones, why isn't your homework on my desk this time?".  Very disrespectful to my ears (eyes).


----------



## chrispillertkd

andyjeffries said:


> Are you seriously comparing an internet forum to a scholarly work ;-)




Ha, hardly. But that's my point. If people don't do it in reputable publications why would it be a big deal if they don't on the intrawebs? It's not a slight when someone who is at the top of their field is referred to by only their last name in a peer-reviewed publication.



> I think it depends on the paper.



Of course it does. But the papers and reporters who don't use titles all the time to refer to politicians aren't being disrespectful simply because of that fact. 



> Tabloid papers may just use last names, but then again is that really where we're setting the standard for writing?



The Wall Street Journal is hardly a tabloid but it regularly refers to the President as "Mister Obama," "Mister Bush," etc. Americans are used to treating our politicians as what they are; people we vote in and out of office. If we don't like them we get rid of them. We also don't have a House of "Lords." It's a different view on things that developed in our culture and not calling someone "Master," especially when they aren't part of a system we study, is similar. It's not a slight in and of itself. 



> I don't think it's required, but it's polite or at least if you don't recognise their title to at least be respectful and use Mr. Referring to someone by just their last name brings back memories of school when teachers would yell "Jones, why isn't your homework on my desk this time?". Very disrespectful to my ears (eyes).



Sure, it's polite but it's certainly not the end of the word if it doesn't happen. It's not even necessarily a sign of disrespect. People point out all the time that MT has posters from different countries so try to be a little culturally sensitive. 

You know, the funny thing is, I know a IX dan who doesn't like being referred to as a "Grand Master." He's told people not to call him that, in fact, and if anyone deserves the title he does (not least because of that attitude, IMNSHO). But if it's important for people to be referred to by a title then I'd do it for their sake. But that's just me.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## andyjeffries

chrispillertkd said:


> Ha, hardly. But that's my point. If people don't do it in reputable publications why would it be a big deal if they don't on the intrawebs? It's not a slight when someone who is at the top of their field is referred to by only their last name in a peer-reviewed publication.



Because in research papers it's the accepted norm, elsewhere it isn't.



chrispillertkd said:


> Of course it does. But the papers and reporters who don't use titles all the time to refer to politicians aren't being disrespectful simply because of that fact. The Wall Street Journal is hardly a tabloid but it regularly refers to the President as "Mister Obama," "Mister Bush," etc.



But that's exactly my point - they refer to them as "Mister Obama" not just "Obama" or "Bush".  I'd have no real issue if people referred to GM Ji as Mr Ji or even Ji, Han-Jae.  It's the sole surname that I dislike.



chrispillertkd said:


> Americans are used to treating our politicians as what they are; people we vote in and out of office. If we don't like them we get rid of them. We also don't have a House of "Lords." It's a different view on things that developed in our culture and not calling someone "Master," especially when they aren't part of a system we study, is similar. It's not a slight in and of itself.



As I said though, if you don't want to call someone Master or Grandmaster because they aren't part of your system that's fine, Mr Whatever is perfectly acceptable.



chrispillertkd said:


> Sure, it's polite but it's certainly not the end of the word if it doesn't happen. It's not even necessarily a sign of disrespect.



It may not be intended that way, but sometimes unintended disrespect happens...  We surely should extend politeness to everyone unless we're specifically intending to be impolite (or acknowledge/apologise afterwards if unintentional disrespect happens)?



chrispillertkd said:


> People point out all the time that MT has posters from different countries so try to be a little culturally sensitive.



Ha ha ha!  That's ironic!  As we're referring to a Korean gentleman one would think that people would be more culturally sensitive and use his title, given that Koreans use titles MUCH more than westerners.  I remember when learning basic Korean that you would have to use for example "Team chief Kim" or some such thing even though you'd never use that title in English.  Korean culture is sensitive to the use of titles much more than western cultures:

http://www.ediplomat.com/np/cultural_etiquette/ce_kr.htm
* It is considered very impolite to address a Korean with his or her given name. Address Koreans using appropriate professional titles until specifically invited by your host or colleagues to use their given names.
* Americans should address a Korean with Mr., Mrs., Miss + family name; however, never address a high-ranking person or superior in this manner.

Now, I understand that not everyone understands this cultural difference, particularly members from different countries, but I'm not being culturally insensitive in pointing it out, I'm trying to help those that don't understand to become more culturally sensitive.



chrispillertkd said:


> You know, the funny thing is, I know a IX dan who doesn't like being referred to as a "Grand Master." He's told people not to call him that, in fact, and if anyone deserves the title he does (not least because of that attitude, IMNSHO). But if it's important for people to be referred to by a title then I'd do it for their sake. But that's just me.



And I agree with this, if GM Ji didn't want to have a title used and has made that publicly known (or known to a small group of people as a public request) then fine.  I'm also happy to use titles for people if they want it.  But I think we should default to using a well accepted title or at least the more generic Mr unless we know otherwise.

Anyway, this is derailing the thread long enough.  I'm sure we won't agree on the topic, but I just wanted to point it out and make my feelings known....


----------



## chrispillertkd

andyjeffries said:


> Because in research papers it's the accepted norm, elsewhere it isn't.



The fact is, however, even in normal conversation in America calling someone by their last name isn't discourteous.



> But that's exactly my point - they refer to them as "Mister Obama" not just "Obama" or "Bush". I'd have no real issue if people referred to GM Ji as Mr Ji or even Ji, Han-Jae. It's the sole surname that I dislike.



Then the best thing to do, I think, is lead by example. 



> Ha ha ha! That's ironic! As we're referring to a Korean gentleman one would think that people would be more culturally sensitive and use his title, given that Koreans use titles MUCH more than westerners.



And yet he lives in America, and has done so for decades. And the posters in question aren't Korean. Cultural sensitivity cuts both ways, doesn't it?



> Now, I understand that not everyone understands this cultural difference, particularly members from different countries, but I'm not being culturally insensitive in pointing it out, I'm trying to help those that don't understand to become more culturally sensitive.



And I'm just pointing out to you that it's not necessarily a slight on their part. 

Maybe I don't see something as little as this as being disrespectful because I've seen many times when people have come out and just insulted Gen. Choi. Worrying about the use of a title, to me, is quite minor.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## zDom

andyjeffries said:


> I think it depends on the paper.  For example, the higher level newspapers generally use titles rather than just last names



It depends on what style book they go by, not whether they are a "higher level newspaper" or not.

Associated Press Style uses only surnames on second and subsequent references.




I write in AP style on a daily basis so if I have dropped a courtesy title here or there it should definitely not be read as a lack of respect.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

As a note, I've seen the JAMA use the last name without titles as well.  Particularly if the title had been given previously and the person is referenced multiple times.  I don't feel any disrespect was intended.  The title was established and the rest is simply to have the article flow better.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

American HKD said:


> Oh
> 
> He does claim to have invented the spin heel kick. At the time it seems that early TSD was really Shotokan (no spin heel kick) and Tae Kyon did not use the spin kick eiher. His spin kick is also unique and looks a lot like Caparoia from Brazil and also similar to Indonisian Silat where they put their hand on the ground for support. Since that time there are many other variations that people do. In that context it seems hard to understand the claim he invented the kick, but in Korea in that era he did invent it, in Brazil he didn't.
> 
> GM Ji also claims to have invented the cane, hankerchief, etc. now I have seen others use a cane but GM Ji also has a unique style that even most Hapkidoin do not do. Most use the cane as a stick or club with a hook, GM uses the crook very specifically and it is not an easy style to master.
> 
> I also do not believe the two Taoists were renownly known per se or sought out by martial artists, after all how many people are serious Taoists or want to follow Taoist traditions? GM Ji claims his first meeting with Grandma was sort of by destiny and very personal.



Thank you for this post.  I was afraid that this information was never going to come out in this thread.  Let me ask this question;  is training on these types of kicks restricted in some way within this branch of Hapkido?  Is there a reason that someone of high/very high Dan ranking would not know them or that GM Ji would not have taught them?  Thank you again, your posts have provided some great information.


----------



## American HKD

Kong Soo Do said:


> Thank you for this post.  I was afraid that this information was never going to come out in this thread.  Let me ask this question;  is training on these types of kicks restricted in some way within this branch of Hapkido?  Is there a reason that someone of high/very high Dan ranking would not know them or that GM Ji would not have taught them?  Thank you again, your posts have provided some great information.



Not sure I understand what you are asking. All the basic Sinmoo kicks are taught by green belt, including the basic spin heel kick, variations, combos and jumping progresses up the ranks. By 2nd dan everyone knows all the kicks, the only restrictions are mastering basics before learning variations.

Master Ji's kicks are unique to his teachings and found mostly in Sinmoo. Many TKD schools adopted HKD but HKD remains secondary and studied mainly for the lock and throws. TKD and HKD use different principles in kicking and those principles must be honered or the kick is not right. 

Hapkido is not TKD with joint locks. :wink1:


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Thank you again Stuart.  I appreciate the explanation of the kicks and where they would fall in the curriculum.


----------

