# Is WTF ANY good for self defence



## CountPike (Feb 6, 2005)

This seems to have been a very controversial issue for many people.  Is WTF TKD any use for self defence.  I mainly ask because apparently 70% of the syllabus is kicking and the competition is based on kicking eachother in the head.  Apparently you learn no defencees or blocks.
Now for me this seems odd in a martial art.
Apparently in ITF people learn kicks, punches, defences etc and a more full art.   Anyone got an opinion on this?


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## Andrew Green (Feb 6, 2005)

"Good" is a very relative term.

 Being aggressive and well conditioned is "good" even with no fight training.

 If a person can take a hit and keep going, hit hard, and be aggressive they're off to a good start on that alone.  WTF brand TKD can do that.

 But if you start trying to throw high spinning kicks it starts getting risky, might hurt them, might hurt you.  Not to mention the fact that being grabbed is a potential problem...

 But for "self-defence" what style of martial arts you do is not really an important thing.  Truthfully whether or not you do ANY martial arts is not really important.  Most people can stay perfectly safe without ever having to hit anyone or get hit by anyone.

 For the most part all martial arts training really does in terms of "self-defence" is give people confidence. Whether it is real or false? chances are they'll never find out.


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## TigerWoman (Feb 6, 2005)

WTF as in Olympic style sparring?  That is a sport.  We have gone through this topic many times. WTF TKD is also traditional.  Self-defense, is knee strikes, eye gouges, groin strikes, elbow strikes, punches, knife strikes etc. etc.  We don't spar that way in class-sport sparring is separate from self-defense.  But we do practice kicking 90% of the time and what you do the most, you are the best at.  At the right time, as others have said many times in many threads, a spin heel to the head will end a fight, possibly a life. One of my breaks for 1st dan is a floor sweep on a board sitting on edge.  Simulates a leg.  A crescent kick can take out a wrist holding a knife.  Everything has its time and place.  See back threads on this subject.  Most recent one here TW


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## Miles (Feb 6, 2005)

CountPike said:
			
		

> This seems to have been a very controversial issue for many people. Is WTF TKD any use for self defence. I mainly ask because apparently 70% of the syllabus is kicking and the competition is based on kicking eachother in the head. Apparently you learn no defencees or blocks.
> Now for me this seems odd in a martial art.
> Apparently in ITF people learn kicks, punches, defences etc and a more full art.   Anyone got an opinion on this?


 Count,

 The World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) is the "International Federation" recognized by the International Olympic Committee (IOC) for Sport Taekwondo.

 The WTF style (known as "Kukki Taekwondo") of free sparring (kyorugi) emphasizes kicking over hand techniques.  It is full-contact sparring utilizing complex, dynamic footwork.   Elite level competitors don't have the need to block-they move their bodies out of the danger zone.  

 The WTF requires international competitors to be certified by the Kukkiwon (World Taekwondo Headquarters) in Seoul.  The Kukkiwon acknowledges other types of Kyorugi such as hanbeon kyorugi (1 step sparring), dubeon kyorugi (2 step sparring) and sambeon (3 step sparring).  There are blocks, punches to the face, eye-gouges, throws, joint locks, etc. within those types of sparring.

 In addition, Taekwondo schools practice self-defense (hoshinsul).

 Taekwondo is a complete martial art.  There is no controversy.

 Miles


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## Tgace (Feb 6, 2005)

ANY martial art can be "good" for self defense as self defense is "mind dependent" rather than "style dependent". Direct any punches/kicks at the right targets and there you go....The biggest problem with "self defense" and the martial arts is the confusion between "victory" and "survival" IMO...


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## TigerWoman (Feb 6, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> ANY martial art can be "good" for self defense as self defense is "mind dependent" rather than "style dependent". Direct any punches/kicks at the right targets and there you go....The biggest problem with "self defense" and the martial arts is the confusion between "victory" and "survival" IMO...



That is one of the things that has always bothered me about our self defense.  Its not avoidance or control just the down and dirty.  Someone grabs my hand to get my attention, he might get a broken knee and knee to the groin from automatic response. Not a victory response but not really a survival response...just ingrained.  What is hard is knowing what is the appropriate response and getting that thought in there first before instinct for survival takes over.  

I had an occasion one night.  It was after 9pm and had locked the door of our dojang and was turning around.  A guy approached me and was talking about signing up his kids for classes.  I said to call or come back tomorrow at noon.  He reached and I automatically blocked his arm hard, dropped my bag and yelled.  He backed away quickly.  He was reaching for a brochure on the side of the door but I had a rail, the door and a wall, confined space and he was coming past me up a step.  I could have kicked his knee easily but stopped when I saw surprise at the block.  Our dojang has three bars on it, not a great place at night.  He said it was for a brochure, sorry, and left.  Don't know if he came back the next day.  Near miss. I don't like that door situation at night.  TW


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## Brad Dunne (Feb 6, 2005)

The answers from everybody have been informative and conditionally correct. Regardless of what one may study, they must have the proper mindset to achieve self defense in a situation. That is totally an individual trait that some can become adjusted too/taught and there are those that may never reach that position, for whatever reason.


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## Shu2jack (Feb 6, 2005)

> The WTF style (known as "Kukki Taekwondo") of free sparring (kyorugi) emphasizes kicking over hand techniques. It is full-contact sparring utilizing complex, dynamic footwork. Elite level competitors don't have the need to block-they move their bodies out of the danger zone.


Just out of curosity, if they don't need to block, why do they get hit in the head? 

I am being totally honest and serious here. I watched the olympic sparring and some WTF sparring and I have always been curious as to why they don't keep their hands up at the very least.

Do you guys find that it is easier to kick with your hands down? Is it a mental thing? I really want to know because now that the ATA has started requiring chest protectors and we started leaning towards olympic sparring I have noticed a lot of people in my division dropping hands and doing things I have not seen before.

I have heard that the style of sparring does not allow kicks directly to the front of the face, so does that play a part in it?


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## Adept (Feb 6, 2005)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> A crescent kick can take out a wrist holding a knife.


 Maybe in the movies. Not something I'd like to try IRL though.


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## TigerWoman (Feb 6, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> Maybe in the movies. Not something I'd like to try IRL though.



If you don't practice it, it won't be there in real life. TW


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## TX_BB (Feb 6, 2005)

CountPike said:
			
		

> This seems to have been a very controversial issue for many people.  Is WTF TKD any use for self-defense?


To be less controversial may be you need to ask how does sport TKD apply itself to self-defense? 

I would say it prepares you in these ways:

1) It prepares you to whether the onslaught. This gives a person who is generally not in a fight everyday a chance to put up a self-defense. Pre-conditioning for violent situations allows your mind to hold together to think and react correctly in combat situation.

2) Sport conditioning, strength, speed and agility are emphasized in Sport TKD. That means weights; sprinting and footwork drills are incorporated into our training.

3) We definitely believe that it is better to give than to receive. Our sparring does not reward people for the hard blocks. We generally try to a) not to get hit and counter or b) parry shots and counter. Generally aggression is rewarded in sport TKD.

As for the rest of your post Miles answer is Golden.


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## ajs1976 (Feb 6, 2005)

Shu2jack said:
			
		

> I am being totally honest and serious here. I watched the olympic sparring and some WTF sparring and I have always been curious as to why they don't keep their hands up at the very least.
> 
> Do you guys find that it is easier to kick with your hands down? Is it a mental thing? I really want to know because now that the ATA has started requiring chest protectors and we started leaning towards olympic sparring I have noticed a lot of people in my division dropping hands and doing things I have not seen before.
> 
> I have heard that the style of sparring does not allow kicks directly to the front of the face, so does that play a part in it?


Shu2jack,

My instructor teaches us to spar with our hands up, but I have some ideas as to why others spar with the hands down.

First, there are no punches to the head. Second, from what I have been told, it is hard to score a point with a punch to the trunk, so most people avoid them. A lot of people have a hard time kicking someone in the head, especially if the person is taller. Most of the kicks are roundkicks to the trunk, so if the arms are down, they are already in position.


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## bignick (Feb 6, 2005)

doc clean said:
			
		

> ...from what I have been told, it is hard to score a point with a punch to the trunk, so most people avoid them...


 Try dang near impossible...I've knocked people back 3 feet with a straight punch to the chest protector and didn't get a thing for it...


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## Shu2jack (Feb 6, 2005)

Thanks. That seems to make sense, though I think they should count the hand techniques. Scoring with a hand technique is more difficult than with a foot technique in the ATA, but at least when I hit with the hands I get the point. 

Full-contact sounds fun, though the application of the rules seem silly. No offense intended.

Also, am I correct in saying that you are not allowed to strike towards the face with your feet?


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## Adept (Feb 6, 2005)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> If you don't practice it, it won't be there in real life. TW


 Oh, I could do it. It's definately an option. But why _would_ you?


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## Shu2jack (Feb 6, 2005)

If I for some reason got caught off guard and had my hands full at the moment.

If I was dealing with one attacker and I spot a second coming from my side. If he lunges with a weapon or a hand I could use a kick to at least buy me a few seconds to disengage from the first attacker.

If I had my hands grabbed and I had a second person coming at me I could perform a kick, though at that point it the confrontation would nearly be over and you would be on the "bad" end of it.
Some tools are more limited that others, but everything has a place. I used to think a knifehand high block as taught to me in forms was silly until a man with a knife grabbed at my hair while I was in a crouching position. What were the odds that a man with a knife would be grabbing at my hair, especially at my height? Small, but hit happened and I had the tool.


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## TX_BB (Feb 6, 2005)

Shu2jack said:
			
		

> Just out of curosity, if they don't need to block, why do they get hit in the head?


1)Misjudgement

2)They are playing the precentages with hands being down ready to parry a kick.


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## TigerWoman (Feb 6, 2005)

If someone doesn't agree with me about the crescent, come right out and say so instead of pinging me 5 pts. and not signing it. Not too cool.

This is a legitimate defense. I would rather do a quick kick with my leg than get anywhere near with my body or arms. Actually we practice this kick alot in our school and one can be quite adept at it.   I was tested on my rec. BB test for this with a fake knife- it didn't touch my skin and I hardly had hit his arm before it was dropped. (padded wrist).  And I think this is my second go-round defending this technique.  TW


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## Shu2jack (Feb 6, 2005)

If it was a misjudgement, then having the hands up would help reduce the damaging results of a "misjudgemnt".

I can see "playing the odds". Personally, under sparring with a near identical rule-set I find that having my hands up prevents injury, reduces the chances of being cracked in the head for 2 points, and still gives me a reasonable chance to block torso kicks.


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## MJS (Feb 6, 2005)

I noticed that there was a few posts that were talking about weapon defense, in particular the knife.  I'd be interested in hearing what the TKD weapon defenses are like.  This is not to slam TKD, but simply to get a better understanding of how the defenses are done.  I don't have a TKD background, but I think it would be interesting to know..for me at least, seeing that my main background is in Kenpo and Arnis.  

As for me...anytime one faces a knife, there is a risk of getting cut.  That being said, I think its important to try and protect our vitals as much as possible.  For example.  Taking a cut to the outside of the arm compared to the inside.  IMO, getting away is the best defense.  If that is not an option, using something as an equalizer would be my next choice, and lastly attempting an empty hand disarm.

Anyways...I'm interested in hearing from some of the TKD people!

Thanks in advance! :asian: 

Mike


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## bignick (Feb 6, 2005)

I have to disagree with you, TW, on the crescent kick to a knife, though we practice a similar technique.  We practice with a crescent kick to the face from that type of attack (punch, stab)...

If you look at how far your attacker has to be away to hit them in the wrist with the crescent kick they most likely wouldn't be able to hit you with the attack in the first place, they'd be too far away...however if they are close enough to hit you their face is a perfect target for the kick...

Not saying you're wrong, because I don't know exactly how you practice the technique...that's just how we do it...


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## Adept (Feb 7, 2005)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> If someone doesn't agree with me about the crescent, come right out and say so instead of pinging me 5 pts. and not signing it. Not too cool.


  Just so you know, that wasn't me. I always sign my rep points, both positive and negative.



> This is a legitimate defense. I would rather do a quick kick with my leg than get anywhere near with my body or arms.


 Fair enough. I dont know how you train it, so I can't realy comment. When I train with a practice knife, crescent kicking is never the most viable option. If you misjudge the distance, you are out of position and have failed to control the weapon. If you are wearing constricting clothes (jeans, evening dress, etc) then it is not an option. It means you are striking at the knife wielder while he is still at very long range. Perhaps pre-empting his strike, but more likley prompting a counter strike.

  The street is a very, _very_ different place to the training hall.



			
				Shu2jack said:
			
		

> If I for some reason got caught off guard and had my hands full at the moment.


 I humbly posit that it would be harder to kick when taken by surprise (especially with your hands full) than it would be to simply get out of the way and drop whatever you are carrying. It also speaks of poor situational awareness to let yourself be surprised like that.



> If I was dealing with one attacker and I spot a second coming from my side. If he lunges with a weapon or a hand I could use a kick to at least buy me a few seconds to disengage from the first attacker.


  Yes indeed. Again, I would severaly question the feasability of _aiming_ at the knife hand in order to do this, or even the idea of standing on one leg, focusing on another opponent, while trying to deal with one right in front of you.


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## Langdow (Feb 7, 2005)

> Also, am I correct in saying that you are not allowed to strike towards the face with your feet?



Shujack don't think anyone answered your question so I will 

Anything forward of the ears is an open target. That inculdes your face. Hope that clears it up for you.


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## Shu2jack (Feb 7, 2005)

I wasn't saying that the cresant kick would be my first choice, or the best choice, but an option to have.




> I humbly posit that it would be harder to kick when taken by surprise (especially with your hands full) than it would be to simply get out of the way and drop whatever you are carrying. It also speaks of poor situational awareness to let yourself be surprised like that.


I agree, it is easier to simply drop what you have in your hands and get out of the way. However, there have been times that I have wandered through the house in the dark late at night when family members suprized me. I was usually holding onto a glass of milk or a blanket and my first reaction was to kick the person who startled me. Of course I didn't know it was a family member at the time, and to drop what I was holding wasn't the first thing to come to mind. The reaction to attack what immediately scared me and I felt was a threat was my first reaction. Right or wrong, my flight or fight reaction kicked in and my reaction was fight.

As for poor situational awareness, yes, it does speak poorly of someone's awareness if they are caught that off guard. I do submit that one can not be totally aware of everything 100% of the time and you could get caught the moment your guard was let down. I got caught while wandering through my house looking for something or just wandering because I couldn't sleep.



> Yes indeed. Again, I would severaly question the feasability of _aiming_ at the knife hand in order to do this, or even the idea of standing on one leg, focusing on another opponent, while trying to deal with one right in front of you.


Point taken, but if I was engaged with one attacker and my hands were busy while a second one came at me with a weapon, why wouldn't try the kick if you couldn't disengage at the time? Better than being stuck, doing nothing, and getting hit.


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## Shu2jack (Feb 7, 2005)

> Shujack don't think anyone answered your question so I will
> 
> Anything forward of the ears is an open target. That inculdes your face. Hope that clears it up for you.


 That does clear it up. Crazy I tell you. Crazy.


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## Miles (Feb 7, 2005)

Shu2jack said:
			
		

> Just out of curosity, if they don't need to block, why do they get hit in the head?


 Bad footwork and/or timing!

[/QUOTE]Do you guys find that it is easier to kick with your hands down? Is it a mental thing? I really want to know because now that the ATA has started requiring chest protectors and we started leaning towards olympic sparring I have noticed a lot of people in my division dropping hands and doing things I have not seen before.[/QUOTE]I said "elite competitor", something which I am not. I teach my students to keep their hands up. As far as is it easier to kick with hands down-I don't know, I keep my hands up. I would venture (only to guess though, sorry) that they are preserving energy by not having hands held up. Also, since most kicks are to the hogu, a hand up or down makes no difference-a shift of body will mean the competitor catches the kick in their arm (which really hurts by the way, especially after a lot of pounding)

I have trained with elite competitors and they can make most everyone miss them, by fractions of an inch. Footwork is an art within itself.

[/QUOTE]I have heard that the style of sparring does not allow kicks directly to the front of the face, so does that play a part in it?[/QUOTE]Kicks to the front of the face are scored. The scoring area is the ears forward. Regardless, I don't think that has anything to do with whether someone has their hands up or not.

Shu2jack, is ATA sparring now full-contact?  At one time the ATA was moving toward Kukkiwon certification.  I have a friend up in Traverse City MI who has an ATA school-super guy and wonderful MA.

Miles


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## Marginal (Feb 7, 2005)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> If someone doesn't agree with me about the crescent, come right out and say so instead of pinging me 5 pts. and not signing it. Not too cool.
> TW


I didn't ping you, but my instructors tend to discourage the crescent kick in that situation. Their reasoning being it's not too hard to end up with major blood loss if the strike happens to go a little off. They tend to prefer either hand techniques or getting out of dodge, and not in that order...


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## Teh Tot (Feb 7, 2005)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> This is a legitimate defense. I would rather do a quick kick with my leg than get anywhere near with my body or arms. TW


I agree. The Crescent kick an excelent defencive tecnique. if someone came up to me with a knife, that would be my first reaction besides trying to talk my way out. I have been told i have long arms but I don't trust that when someone has about 3 more inches on their arm that my arms will be able to get in there before the knife gets me.  In a fight the crescent kick is an excellent disarming kick.


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## MJS (Feb 7, 2005)

Question about the kick defense with the knife.  What exactly is the process for executing the kick?  What I mean is...is the person with the knife just standing there, showing it in a threatening fashion or are they actually taking a stab at your midsection and you're doing the kick?

Mike


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## Brad Dunne (Feb 7, 2005)

As MJS pointed out, what is the knife holder doing? IMO, if the knife/hand is in motion, then counter hand techniques are the order. If stationary - just posing a threat, then the cresent kick may work. Note here** This kick is predicated upon the ability of the person delivering it. There are also 2 ways to execute this kick. 1) The full straight leg hip rotational and 2) The snap angle delivery. For those who may not be familiar with the second type, it's very similar to a front snap kick but there is only a small amount of hip rotation which is caused by snapping the leg from the knee (like the front snap), but it's delivered on a smaller arch (shoulder to shoulder length). It can only be thrown on the outside angle, for that is the natural flexation for the knee. It's very fast and very effective. Again it's based upon the person's abilities, but with a little practice just about everyone can do a credible job on the mechanics. Another way to describe it would be a midget outside cresent. Another aspect, safety wise, is the fact that because it's an outside cresent, the main leg artery (femoral) is not affected if you happen to get cut.


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## Tgace (Feb 7, 2005)

If the guy is inexperienced enought to let you even see the knife, maybe...and if hes dumb enough to leave the knife motionless for even a second......


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## Zepp (Feb 7, 2005)

To address the original topic:  *It's not the style or the art- it's the instructor!*

My complaint regarding the WTF has always been about the epidemic of crappy of instruction.  Kukki-TKD has no shortage of skills and techniques that can be used in self-defense, but the problem is that too many instructors don't teach their students the difference between the mat and the real world (or worse, they don't understand the difference themselves).

_BTW, I do know that there are good WTF instructors out there.  So please, there's no need to become defensive if you're WTF.  I have no means of judging you or your school over this forum, and I'm really not trying to._

As far as kicking a weapon out of your opponent's hand goes, being threatened with a weapon before someone uses it on you is a luxury that you can't count on.  If you want to train for self-defense against weapons, especially edged weapons, you owe it to yourself, and any students of yours, to educate yourself about how these fights really do happen.  For starters, I suggest Darren Laur's article "Edged Weapon Tactics and Counter Tactics," which you can find here: http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/safetyarticles.htm.  Of course, there's also a shiznit load of material in the Armoury and Self-defense forums...


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## Shu2jack (Feb 8, 2005)

> Bad footwork and/or timing!
> 
> .....
> 
> I have trained with elite competitors and they can make most everyone miss them, by fractions of an inch. Footwork is an art within itself.


I am not disagreeing with you, but someone can have excellent footwork and still get nailed. Afterall, at the highest level the elite competitors with the awesome foot work spar equally elite competitors with equally awesome footwork. They can make each other miss within fractions of a inch, but one of them is going to get hit eventually. Why not keep up the hands to help cover the possiblity of being out-manuvered or just out-kicked?




> Shu2jack, is ATA sparring now full-contact? At one time the ATA was moving toward Kukkiwon certification. I have a friend up in Traverse City MI who has an ATA school-super guy and wonderful MA.


No, it isn't full contact. _Technically _we don't have to make contact to score a point and black belts are allowed to tone it up to "moderate" contact. It is left up to the judges and competitors how hard they want to go at it.

Out of curosity who is the guy in Traverse City? If he is a black belt I probably know him too.



> A far as kicking a weapon out of your opponent's hand goes, being threatened with a weapon before someone uses it on you is a luxury that you can't count on. If you want to train for self-defense against weapons, especially edged weapons, you owe it to yourself, and any students of yours, to educate yourself about how these fights really do happens





> If the guy is inexperienced enought to let you even see the knife, maybe...and if hes dumb enough to leave the knife motionless for even a second......


Like we have been saying, _it is just an option to have_. Can we count on it? No, just like we can't count on anything else to work 100%. I know I don't have any of the "real world" experience that you gentleman have, but I have had the misfortune to be assaulted by a knife wielding attacker. Did I try any TKD kicks? No, I tried other things like de-escalating the situation and when that failed and it became physical I relied on hand techniques and movement.

So like we have been saying, we are not teaching students to rely on these kicks for self-defense and go "kung foo kicking" to disarm weapon-wielding attackers. We are giving students tools and options to have that may suit their physical capablities.


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## Teh Tot (Feb 11, 2005)

> Question about the kick defense with the knife. What exactly is the process for executing the kick? What I mean is...is the person with the knife just standing there, showing it in a threatening fashion or are they actually taking a stab at your midsection and you're doing the kick?


They Could be doing any number of things, whether or not you use it depends on where the knife is and how high you can get the kick up.  If the opportunity came I would back away and not fight. but if I had no choice I would Personally rather get cut on the leg than stabbed in a vital location.


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## bignick (Feb 11, 2005)

Plenty of vital locations on your leg.  If you get cut on the femoral artery, you're pretty much out of luck, if your achilles tendon gets severed or any major muscle group or tendon for that matter gets cut you're going to have a heck of a time standing, much less walking, kicking, or running away...


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## Teh Tot (Feb 11, 2005)

True, but you would still be alive, or have a better chance of being alive and recovering. I know that even if you get stabbed in the heart you can still live, but that's a lot more serious than stabbing an artery or cutting tendons or muscles.  But the point of the post was that getting away is more important than fighting, although I didn't make it that clear.


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## bignick (Feb 11, 2005)

If you're femoral artery gets cut we're talking maybe minutes tops before you pass out from blood loss if you don't immediately cut off the blood flow  (which you aren't probably going to have time to do in an altercation).

And yes...getting way is the optimal solution


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## Miles (Feb 11, 2005)

Shu2jack said:
			
		

> I am not disagreeing with you, but someone can have excellent footwork and still get nailed. Afterall, at the highest level the elite competitors with the awesome foot work spar equally elite competitors with equally awesome footwork. They can make each other miss within fractions of a inch, but one of them is going to get hit eventually. Why not keep up the hands to help cover the possiblity of being out-manuvered or just out-kicked?


   Feel free to disagree!  Life is boring if everyone agrees!

 Why not keep hands up? I don't know-I am an old-stylist who was taught to keep his hands up-and teach my students to do the same. I will say though that at the Kukkiwon, (during Poomsae, not when we trained with the Samsung and Korean Olympians), we were told to lower our hands since keeping them up raised the center of gravity (picture high block w/left hand in left front stance, right front kick, stepping forward to right middle section punch-fairly common sequence in Korean/Japanese martial arts) which adversely affected balance.



			
				Shu2jack said:
			
		

> Out of curosity who is the guy in Traverse City? If he is a black belt I probably know him too.


 I PM'd this info-do you know him?

  Miles


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## Shu2jack (Feb 11, 2005)

> Why not keep hands up? I don't know-I am an old-stylist who was taught to keep his hands up-and teach my students to do the same. I will say though that at the Kukkiwon, (during Poomsae, not when we trained with the Samsung and Korean Olympians), we were told to lower our hands since keeping them up raised the center of gravity (picture high block w/left hand in left front stance, right front kick, stepping forward to right middle section punch-fairly common sequence in Korean/Japanese martial arts) which adversely affected balance.


To each their own I guess. I feel out of balance when I drop my hands.

Tomorrow afternoon there is going to be a 2-hour sparring/workout session with students from around Michigan using WTF rules that I plan on attending. I'll see how things go with that.



> I PM'd this info-do you know him?


I PM'd you back. I do know the gentleman.


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## Shu2jack (Feb 11, 2005)

I just got your PM back, Milan is the place I am going to. I guess I will see you there! I will be coming there after my 12-hour night work shift and have to go back for another one after that work out. So if I have that stoned look on my face, I am ok and that is not my usual look. 

[EDIT] I should identify myself so we can say "Hi". It won't be hard to spot me. I will be the guy wearing the "karate-ish" white uniform as opposed to the shirt/v-neck-type uniform. On the back of my uniform it will say, TAEKWONDO, ATA, Jack Smail.


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## Shu2jack (Feb 12, 2005)

> Why not keep hands up? I don't know-I am an old-stylist who was taught to keep his hands up-and teach my students to do the same. I will say though that at the Kukkiwon, (during Poomsae, not when we trained with the Samsung and Korean Olympians), we were told to lower our hands since keeping them up raised the center of gravity (picture high block w/left hand in left front stance, right front kick, stepping forward to right middle section punch-fairly common sequence in Korean/Japanese martial arts) which adversely affected balance.


 
After that training session, I can see why the Olympic folks keep their hands down and, I never thought I would say this, it makes sense for them to keep their hands down or in a lower guard position.
Personally, I will continue to keep my hands up, but I did enjoy the sparring. It brought some things to my attention that I need to work on. I am looking forward to continuing to train with you guys.


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## TX_BB (Feb 13, 2005)

Shu2jack said:
			
		

> After that training session, I can see why the Olympic folks keep their hands down and, I never thought I would say this, it makes sense for them to keep their hands down or in a lower guard position.
> Personally, I will continue to keep my hands up, but I did enjoy the sparring. It brought some things to my attention that I need to work on. I am looking forward to continuing to train with you guys.


Please, share your insight.

Thank you in advance.


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## Shu2jack (Feb 13, 2005)

Something one of their Masters told me. Something along the lines of, "If you are blocking, you are acting on his kick and not yourself scoring. Instead, keep a guard and rely on evasion/footwork."

Since there are no punches to the face, it is easier to rely on foot work, jamming, and evasion to avoid head shots. Most of the kicks are coming towards the body, and they will arrive their faster than kicks to the head, it is better to keep your hands down to prevent being scored on.

I still kept my hands up out of habit, but the guys who kept their hands down made it work for them.


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## MichiganTKD (Feb 13, 2005)

Another reason the WTF fighters keep their hands down: They are trying to goad the guy into kicking toward their head. Head kicking requires different distance than middle, and puts you at greater risk for receing a counter. Therefore, one fighter will often keep hands down to appear vulnerable, get the guy to initiate a high kick, and counter appropriately.


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## Miles (Feb 13, 2005)

Shu2jack said:
			
		

> After that training session, I can see why the Olympic folks keep their hands down and, I never thought I would say this, it makes sense for them to keep their hands down or in a lower guard position.
> Personally, I will continue to keep my hands up, but I did enjoy the sparring. It brought some things to my attention that I need to work on. I am looking forward to continuing to train with you guys.


 It was very nice to meet you yesterday!  It is a very good group of folks-lots of sweat and very little ego!  Hope to see you in Kalamazoo.

 Miles


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## Shu2jack (Feb 15, 2005)

You are right about the little ego thing. It did kind of take me by surprize by how open and easy-going the instructors were, especially to an "outsider". I kept asking questions and they were more than happy to put up with me and keep providing answers. Very friendly people.

I hope to attend the workout in Kalamazoo. I will have to see what my work schedule tells me. I do want to continue doing point sparring and full-contact sparring. I think it will make me a better rounded TKDist and being allowed to finally hit someone as hard as I want (and letting him hit me as hard as they want) is refreshing and is forcing me to change how I throw my techniques a bit.

I hope to see you in Kalamazoo!


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## DuneViking (Feb 22, 2005)

Shu2jack said:
			
		

> You are right about the little ego thing. It did kind of take me by surprize by how open and easy-going the instructors were, especially to an "outsider". I kept asking questions and they were more than happy to put up with me and keep providing answers. Very friendly people.
> 
> I hope to attend the workout in Kalamazoo. I will have to see what my work schedule tells me. I do want to continue doing point sparring and full-contact sparring. I think it will make me a better rounded TKDist and being allowed to finally hit someone as hard as I want (and letting him hit me as hard as they want) is refreshing and is forcing me to change how I throw my techniques a bit.
> 
> I hope to see you in Kalamazoo!


Great, now lwt us know why they keep their arms down!!! I and some others that I spar with may keep the FDW guard down at times to guard kicks , but not both, so I am curious:asian:


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## DuneViking (Feb 22, 2005)

Shu2jack said:
			
		

> You are right about the little ego thing. It did kind of take me by surprize by how open and easy-going the instructors were, especially to an "outsider". I kept asking questions and they were more than happy to put up with me and keep providing answers. Very friendly people.
> 
> I hope to attend the workout in Kalamazoo. I will have to see what my work schedule tells me. I do want to continue doing point sparring and full-contact sparring. I think it will make me a better rounded TKDist and being allowed to finally hit someone as hard as I want (and letting him hit me as hard as they want) is refreshing and is forcing me to change how I throw my techniques a bit.
> 
> I hope to see you in Kalamazoo!


Great, now let us know why they keep their arms down!!! I and some others that I spar with may keep the FDW guard down at times to guard kicks , but not both, so I am curious:asian:


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## terryl965 (Feb 22, 2005)

Is WTF any good for self defense no, but maybe the person doing is!!!!!


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## MissTwisties (Feb 22, 2005)

I'm not sure I understand this whole thread. Seems some of you are saying that taekwondo is no good for self-defense?  That's one of the main reasons I did put my little girl in a taekwondo class, hoping that if she likes it and grow up doing it, she could face almost any predators on the street when she's a teenager. Am I dreaming to hope for that? Sexual offenders, murderers, psychos of any kind are everywhere...it is scarry. I want my girls to be able to survive and defend themselves later in life. I wanted also an opportunity to use this for College, competitions, maybe even Olympics, who knows...

Let me know if Taekwondo is not the right place for them to learn REAL self-defense, please....so we don't waste our money for nothing.


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## terryl965 (Feb 22, 2005)

MissTwisties said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I understand this whole thread. Seems some of you are saying that taekwondo is no good for self-defense?  That's one of the main reasons I did put my little girl in a taekwondo class, hoping that if she likes it and grow up doing it, she could face almost any predators on the street when she's a teenager. Am I dreaming to hope for that? Sexual offenders, murderers, psychos of any kind are everywhere...it is scarry. I want my girls to be able to survive and defend themselves later in life. I wanted also an opportunity to use this for College, competitions, maybe even Olympics, who knows...
> 
> Let me know if Taekwondo is not the right place for them to learn REAL self-defense, please....


Miss Twisties you have to understand WTF is sport base TKD not actual TKD so do not try to compare the two. The difference is over whelming to the beginner just let your daughter have fun and learn and go from there.


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## TigerWoman (Feb 22, 2005)

WTF point sparring is different than WTF self defense.  

Point sparring is a chess match game, though a deadly one with knock out power.  Defense in point sparring is just to not be there in the way of the kick.  Or second best, protect the likeliest target with blocks. The best defense is to counter.  I would rather have my hands up to go either way-down or high but national/international tournament sparring, I recognize, is a whole different chess match. Can't judge it unless you've been there.

Self defense just goes to take the attacker out. Knee, groin and eye gouges are not in normal sparring.  And we do learn good self defense in my opinion.  So WTF is good for self defense. TW


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## MissTwisties (Feb 22, 2005)

So...does that mean that if she learns "WTF" taekwondo, it will be good to go to Olympics and such, because it is a sport, but it won't be good enough for self-defense...

And that if she learn another form of taekwondo (I don't know how you call it or even spell it), it wouldn't be good to go to Olympics/competitions but it would be good for self-defense?

Can't she learn BOTH? The sport aspect AND the real self-defense aspect of it (I guess what you call the "art"). Why is this so complicated!!!!! Like I said, I don't want to waste money for nothing, since it doesn't grow in the trees.


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## TigerWoman (Feb 22, 2005)

You probably didn't have time to read my post.  Yes, you can do both, you learn both.  They are separate areas of learning.  WTF is a style of learning, style of kicking, forms.  Just like ITF is the older style.  Both teach self defense as well.  The stronger we get, the better we are to defend ourselves but even a white belt has two techniques that they can do.  Each belt learns more.  I've learned others as well.  But basically we learn about thirty self defense techniques.  Each instructor may teach this a little differently though.  TW


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## MissTwisties (Feb 22, 2005)

Yes! I was trying to post after I saw your pst...sorry...lol  I want to apologize if I'm exasperating with all my questions...I just hate being ignorant and I like to understand things...lol


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## terryl965 (Feb 22, 2005)

MissTwisties said:
			
		

> Yes! I was trying to post after I saw your pst...sorry...lol I want to apologize if I'm exasperating with all my questions...I just hate being ignorant and I like to understand things...lol


Mis Twisties remember your daughter is five right she has a long time for learning let her enjoy where she is and go from there, no money is wated as you put it if your child is enjoying herself and from some of your post she is and you are having fun watching her. We put are childern is extra cirriculum activities so they can evolve and become pretty good with motor skills and build a solid foundation and that is what the Art or the Sport of TKD does so sit back and enjoy her enjoyment.


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## Hwoarang (Feb 22, 2005)

It's not the style that matters.. It is the person behind it. You can't speak for all WTF Dojangs..


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## MissTwisties (Feb 22, 2005)

From what I read in some posts, is that WTF is no good for self-defense. The school she is going to is a WTF school. What I'm trying to say is that I didn't put her in a martial arts class just to have fun, there was a main purpose to it, and that was for her to start learning techniques NOW on how to defend herself later on if she needs it. Having fun only, she can do that at home and it doesn't cost any money. Self-defense, that I cannot teach her and that's why I'm paying for her to learn it. Yes I want her to have fun but while she is LEARNING real self-defense, not only the sport aspect of Taekwondo that wouldn't be much of use if she gets attacked on the street. Some of you say that WTF is good self-defense, some of you say it's not. Very confusing...lol

Edit: I guess opinions will differ very much so, and I feel if I try to look too much into it, I might go nutz.


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## terryl965 (Feb 22, 2005)

MissTwisties said:
			
		

> From what I read in some posts, is that WTF is no good for self-defense. The school she is going to is a WTF school. What I'm trying to say is that I didn't put her in a martial arts class just to have fun, there was a main purpose to it, and that was for her to start learning techniques NOW on how to defend herself later on if she needs it. Having fun only, she can do that at home and it doesn't cost any money. Self-defense, that I cannot teach her and that's why I'm paying for her to learn it. Yes I want her to have fun but while she is LEARNING real self-defense, not only the sport aspect of Taekwondo that wouldn't be much of use if she gets attacked on the street. Some of you say that WTF is good self-defense, some of you say it's not. Very confusing...lol
> 
> Edit: I guess opinions will differ very much so, and I feel if I try to look too much into it, I might go nutz.


There are WTF that teaches self defense, yours may be one of them. Talk to your instructor and find out he onlys knows. As far as hwoarang your right in my earlier post three door up I stated that look in see.Miss twisties when I say let her have fun the most important aspect is for the child to have fun for the first couple of weeks or they will not be able to learn down the road.Adult can push themself to put there body through the ringer a child needs a little guideness.


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## MissTwisties (Feb 22, 2005)

I just spoke with the master's wife, she reassured me a great deal. They do teach self-defense, and also mental mind sets on how to deal with different situations in life, wether for self-defense or for something else. She is a 2nd dan black belt in WTF. She says that herself would feel very confident defending herself if she was faced with someone holding a knife or trying to punch her, as they are using their feet to keep distance from an attacker, and they also use their voice to discourage the attacker, or something like that anyway...


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## ajs1976 (Feb 22, 2005)

WTF is linked to the Olympic style sparring.  Olympic style sparring allows kicks above the belt (not to the spine) and to the head.  Punches to the body are allowed, but not used that much because it is hard to score points with them.  Knees, elbows and takedowns are not allowed.

Some WTF Dojangs only teach the techniques that are allowed in Olympic style sparring.   Most people consider this to be a very limited version of TKD and not very effective in Self-defense.

For Self-defense, my master also teaches one-steps and grabbing techniques.  The current set of three one-steps that I'm working on include an upper cut to the head, elbow to the head, knee strike and leg sweep takedowns.

the grabbing techniques are escapes from someone grabbing you.  Most of these techniques involve joint locks of some type.  My master does not teach these to the little kids, because their joints are still forming and can cause damage.


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## DuneViking (Feb 22, 2005)

UMMMmmm, is WTF any use in self defense? Yes it is, that is what our club's emphasis is on, and has been for over 30 years. A tool relies on the one employing it, period. Do not ever be afraid to ask questions MissT. Be afraid if you stop asking.


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## albegood (Jun 5, 2017)

You know I have spent many years studying many martial arts forms, and I have to say even the belt factory WTF style TKD can teach you many valuable things. In my view the shortcoming of this style TKD is that its predictable, and taught as a sport. But make no mistake, if you are really good at Taekwondo you can defend yourself against most people. Where it becomes more difficult is when you go against a skilled opponent, that's when the art breaks down, actually it doesn't if the practitioner  remembers one thing, its no longer a TKD contest, and the rules have changed, and therefor the application of the skill should also change to meet the situation, knees, throat, groin, neck, and  high percentage kicks, (as opposed to the acrobatic kicks that will likely get you in trouble), you just have to reapply the skill to meet the situation. Also it doesn't hurt to get acquainted with Jujitsu and real ground work, hapkido, and more hand work. But TKD is a great place to start your martial arts journey, but it's not the end all on that road. There is so much more out there that has great value too.


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## Paul_D (Jun 6, 2017)

albegood said:


> Also it doesn't hurt to get acquainted with Jujitsu


it doesn't hurt to get acquainted with the dates on forum posts either.


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## RobBnTX (Jun 6, 2017)

Paul_D exactly right, this thread went back 12 years!  Shouldn't there be a shelf life on these threads?


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## JP3 (Jun 11, 2017)

Welcome to MT Albegood. I note you've been... ahh ...  greeted.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 11, 2017)

albegood said:


> You know I have spent many years studying many martial arts forms, and I have to say even the belt factory WTF style TKD can teach you many valuable things. In my view the shortcoming of this style TKD is that its predictable, and taught as a sport. But make no mistake, if you are really good at Taekwondo you can defend yourself against most people. Where it becomes more difficult is when you go against a skilled opponent, that's when the art breaks down, actually it doesn't if the practitioner  remembers one thing, its no longer a TKD contest, and the rules have changed, and therefor the application of the skill should also change to meet the situation, knees, throat, groin, neck, and  high percentage kicks, (as opposed to the acrobatic kicks that will likely get you in trouble), you just have to reapply the skill to meet the situation. Also it doesn't hurt to get acquainted with Jujitsu and real ground work, hapkido, and more hand work. But TKD is a great place to start your martial arts journey, but it's not the end all on that road. There is so much more out there that has great value too.



Since there is no such thing as WTF style TKD, this entire thread is silly.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jun 14, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> Since there is no such thing as WTF style TKD, this entire thread is silly.


I think you will agree that the following is a fair question: "Are WTF tournament techniques ANY good for self defence?"

I would say the rear leg roundhouse is a bread and butter kick in most striking martial arts, and is very good for self-defence. Of course the situation may call for a low roundhouse kick, which is not used in tournaments.


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## Rough Rider (Jun 15, 2017)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I think you will agree that the following is a fair question: "Are WTF tournament techniques ANY good for self defence?"



Why would anybody even consider tournament techniques or rules in a self-defense situation?  I see this type of thinking a lot when people try to argue that "Taekwondo sucks." 
Some people mistakenly believe that all we train in is tournament sparring.  Nothing is further from the truth.  We train in sweeps, eye-gouges (simulated, of course), punches and other hand-strikes to all parts of the body, various kicks to all parts of the body, and much more.  We also talk a lot about diffusing a situation before it turns violent. 
But sure, we'll just go with "TKD sucks because you can't punch the face, etc."


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## StevenNotSeagal (Sep 14, 2017)

The sport side of TKD is obviously what is the biggest advert and perception of the art from outside, I am still very new and I have yet (and might never) competed but if you actually just look at the sport one thing that is certain. To compete you need to be fit and fast (or go home early)

In a world with an obesity epidemic being fit and fast cancels out many a potential opponent on their own, that said, like I say, I am new and only really have my local WTF class to draw on but the OP's description does not reflect what I am seeing in class.

Blocking, punching, joint locks, take downs and throws are all being taught as well as kicks. I am only on the basic end of the training but I have eyes and eyes tend to seek out points of interest and when we all fall off after warm to focus on things relevant to the belt we are each shooting for or doing step sparring with the things we have learnt up to that point I am seeing all sorts of things going on around me.

Short answer, and I am not long enough into it to be a blind fanatic is that YES, I believe it is very good for defence.

However I would say this, there will be schools vs schools differences depending upon quality. I see a lot of style vs style chats going on, on this site and others but lets say for argument a style X is indeed on the whole better than style Y, a local style Y school with a better teacher than the local style X school might still produce better able to defend selfs students.
And for any with a local TKD school where the teacher might leave a lot to be desired and a (insert any style here) class with a great teacher then I would say that then locally TKD is not a good option!

I think "what is the best style" comes down to just that, finding the best school, with the best teacher, within the area you can realistically travel and who has classes that fit in with your life, and equally what you enjoy and are willing to apply yourself too.

ie a lot of folk tout BJJ but if you would resent having another mans junk next to your face every week then I doubt its for you (or me, great local bjj school but just not what I want to doing in my free time!)
That said, when looking around to start something, Shotokan appealed but all the local schools were pretty much pants.


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