# Is this a legitimate gym or mcdojo



## BJJwannabe91 (Jan 22, 2021)

Salem Muay Thai - Krav Maga Salem - Salem, Oregon 

Im thinking of signing up at this gym but I'm not sure if it's legit, can someone look at the gym through the link I provided and tell me if it's legit? Im a beginner and I've taken some bjj classes but I don't know nothing about striking and they offer muay thai and I'm wondering if that program is legit.


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## jobo (Jan 22, 2021)

BJJwannabe91 said:


> Salem Muay Thai - Krav Maga Salem - Salem, Oregon
> 
> Im thinking of signing up at this gym but I'm not sure if it's legit, can someone look at the gym through the link I provided and tell me if it's legit? Im a beginner and I've taken some bjj classes but I don't know nothing about striking and they offer muay thai and I'm wondering if that program is legit.


it depends what you want, i suppose, reading between the lines,  it makes a great play of its fitness building, and i have no doubt if you sign up youl end up very fit, very quickly ,

whats not so clear  is if the striking practice,  is only bags or if you get to hit people eventually, which has the down side of people hitting you, belive me being smashed with a mt elbow isnt much fun.

this is easy to answer, go along and see what happens,, if you really want fighting skills, you want to see people actually fight, if you dont want a fratured eye socket, you may be happier if they dont

proper mt is really really hard core, do boxing at least they are not supposed to elbow you in the face


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 22, 2021)

Take a look at their youtube videos.  And decide from there.  Just keep in mind that Covid is probably going to take away sparring
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN0wzV6Kf5jXVTpvB6iMx-g/videos


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## Tenshin (Jan 22, 2021)

Some thoughts.

It seems more focus on Krav, guns, fitness which is fine.  The Muay Thai they offered not sure, most people teaching have a coach, Kru, or Arjarn title, having a fight record isn't necessary though helps, he may have just studied for 20 years and teaches what he knows. They are affiliated with snake pit catch wrestling so that is a plus, I do not know about Krav. I would go try a class or 2 and see how the Muay Thai is, my Muay thai Muay Boran Arjarn teaches everything in Thai so hopefully that guy does too.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 22, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> Some thoughts.
> 
> It seems more focus on Krav, guns, fitness which is fine.  The Muay Thai they offered not sure, most people teaching have a coach, Kru, or Arjarn title, having a fight record isn't necessary though helps, he may have just studied for 20 years and teaches what he knows. They are affiliated with snake pit catch wrestling so that is a plus, I do not know about Krav. I would go try a class or 2 and see how the Muay Thai is, my Muay thai Muay Boran Arjarn teaches everything in Thai so hopefully that guy does too.


Unless you speak Thai, I’m not sure what the benefit is in someone teaching in Thai.


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## Tenshin (Jan 22, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Unless you speak Thai, I’m not sure what the benefit is in someone teaching in Thai.



When you learn an art you should learn the terminology of the art. 
When I study Muay Thai and Muay Boran the terminology is in Thai, When I do Karate the terms are in Japanese.  When I teach we use the terminology of the arts language and not English


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## dvcochran (Jan 22, 2021)

Well above average website and social media. Stout instructors list but very limited in ring experience, if that matters to you.
It is wise to look for references but the only way to really know is to try it out. Do you have any experience? If so lean on that (the good And the bad) when making your opinions. I strongly recommend setting down and making a list of what you feel you are looking for and try not to go into this or any other class with 'dreamy' expectations. If they are coming from you internally that is fine but if it sets there and simmers at the dream stage it will eventually burn and leave a bad taste in your mouth.
Best of luck; keep us in the loop and let us know how it goes.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 22, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Unless you speak Thai, I’m not sure what the benefit is in someone teaching in Thai.


Depends.  It doesn't help with application.  Tons of people out there that know the terms and sound smart but actually have no practical ability to use the skill sets.

I'll use myself as an example.  I know Jow Ga but I'm horrible with the names.  I've been trying to learn the names but only so I can communicate with other Jow Ga students and teachers.  One of the Founders Brothers is known for "not knowing the formal names"  it has been said that he was kind of "street."  As a result the lineage has techniques called "block punch" and "scoop hand"  He pretty much renamed them for what they do and not something fancy.

Out of all of the brothers he's the one that is talked about the most.  He's less known for the "street" terminologies for the techniques but more known for his ability to use the techniques.  He's well known for that.

For me personally I place more importance on learning the application.  It's much easier to fill in the gaps of terminology than the gaps of application.  If you know Akido and all of your techniques are named after food, then I would I wouldn't mind so long as you actually knew how to use the techniques.

In the world of Martial Arts, especially TMA systems,  finding someone who actually knows how to use the technique is really difficult.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 23, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> When you learn an art you should learn the terminology of the art.
> When I study Muay Thai and Muay Boran the terminology is in Thai, When I do Karate the terms are in Japanese.  When I teach we use the terminology of the arts language and not English


Terminology is just what we call things. I learned my primary art with almost no Japanese terms. It doesn’t really change the understanding of the principles, except that people don’t seem to waste time coming up with mistaken translations to explain things in a convoluted way. In Judo, we learned the Japanese terms, but they were just names of techniques, and no more revelatory than the English names I later learned for some of the same techniques.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 23, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Depends.  It doesn't help with application.  Tons of people out there that know the terms and sound smart but actually have no practical ability to use the skill sets.
> 
> I'll use myself as an example.  I know Jow Ga but I'm horrible with the names.  I've been trying to learn the names but only so I can communicate with other Jow Ga students and teachers.  One of the Founders Brothers is known for "not knowing the formal names"  it has been said that he was kind of "street."  As a result the lineage has techniques called "block punch" and "scoop hand"  He pretty much renamed them for what they do and not something fancy.
> 
> ...


I’ve found many of the non-native terms are badly mispronounced, to the point that a native speaker can’t recognize them (and practitioners from different countries can’t, either). Add to that the fact that some instructors seem to have a knack for badly mangling linguistics and doing mental gymnastics where they don’t understand the original terms (like calling “aiki” and “kiai” reverse of the same idea), and the original terms can become a hindrance.

Mind you, the English names of our techniques don’t seem to be any easier for students to remember (“two-hand grip from the rear, throw to the side” anyone?).


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## MetalBoar (Jan 23, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Depends.  It doesn't help with application.  Tons of people out there that know the terms and sound smart but actually have no practical ability to use the skill sets.
> 
> I'll use myself as an example.  I know Jow Ga but I'm horrible with the names.  I've been trying to learn the names but only so I can communicate with other Jow Ga students and teachers.  One of the Founders Brothers is known for "not knowing the formal names"  it has been said that he was kind of "street."  As a result the lineage has techniques called "block punch" and "scoop hand"  He pretty much renamed them for what they do and not something fancy.
> 
> ...


My Hapkido instructor was (still is, but not my instructor anymore) an amazing martial artist and Korean is his native language. He still renamed all the techniques things like "Punching 1" or "Twisting 3" because he felt like it was easier for Americans to remember and all he cared about in that context was that people could learn the art.


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## Tenshin (Jan 23, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Terminology is just what we call things. I learned my primary art with almost no Japanese terms. It doesn’t really change the understanding of the principles, except that people don’t seem to waste time coming up with mistaken translations to explain things in a convoluted way. In Judo, we learned the Japanese terms, but they were just names of techniques, and no more revelatory than the English names I later learned for some of the same techniques.


Well that is your opinion I will leave it at that since we will disagree and no point in discussing it any further.


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## jobo (Jan 23, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> Well that is your opinion I will leave it at that since we will disagree and no point in discussing it any further.


im intrested in what benifit you think derives from it? im of the opinion there may be some benifit, but id like to know what you think it is and how you quantify it


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 23, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I’ve found many of the non-native terms are badly mispronounced, to the point that a native speaker can’t recognize them (and practitioners from different countries can’t, either). Add to that the fact that some instructors seem to have a knack for badly mangling linguistics and doing mental gymnastics where they don’t understand the original terms (like calling “aiki” and “kiai” reverse of the same idea), and the original terms can become a hindrance.
> 
> Mind you, the English names of our techniques don’t seem to be any easier for students to remember (“two-hand grip from the rear, throw to the side” anyone?).


The only real benefit that I've seen is a cultural one. but it varies.  I went to one Kung Fu school where the students also learned Chinese, so not only were they able to say the terms they were able to have small conversations.  I had a friend in my 20's who learned a little Korean when taking a TKD class.  They learned how to ask questions and how to answer in Korean.  These are the only 2 cases that I know of.

I think if I were to be strict on terminology, I would have a native Chinese speaker come and assist with that part for the very same reason.  I would also go beyond the terminology.  But that's just me.  I'm a language freak.  Over the years I've learned Spanish, and studied Korean (to where I could read it), Japanese, Thai, and Tagalog.   Unfortunately language is something that has to be used in order to keep it.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 23, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Mind you, the English names of our techniques don’t seem to be any easier for students to remember (“two-hand grip from the rear, throw to the side” anyone?).


I personally don't know of any schools that kept the long name translations.  Except maybe Tai Chi, but then again. Tai Chi is application users are rare.  I would be interested if the Applications users have changed the names to be more like the action.   Using your example,   "two-hand grip from rear, throw to the side" could be change to "Grip from rear and throw to side."  It tells what is being done and could cover more than one method of gripping and throwing to the side.

I've heard tiger claw to the face changed to . "Palm to face then pull"  "Palm to face then grab" which is often said when teaching self-defense.  It makes more sense as to the action that should be performed than saying Tiger claw to the face.


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## dvcochran (Jan 23, 2021)

QUOTE="gpseymour, post: 2026931, member: 27826"]I’ve found many of the non-native terms are badly mispronounced, to the point that a native speaker can’t recognize them (and practitioners from different countries can’t, either). Add to that the fact that some instructors seem to have a knack for badly mangling linguistics and doing mental gymnastics where they don’t understand the original terms (like calling “aiki” and “kiai” reverse of the same idea), and the original terms can become a hindrance.

Mind you, the English names of our techniques don’t seem to be any easier for students to remember (“two-hand grip from the rear, throw to the side” anyone?).[/QUOTE]
My Korean GM and I have talked about this several times. Korea, particularly the north and south regions have the same inflection differences that we have in the extreme directions of the US. He also explains that there is very much a difference in the way words are said And spelled in the upper and lower classes. I do not remember ever seeing words actually spelled differently in the US but they are certainly pronounced differently. 
If you heard me speak I imagine you would correctly identify me as a southern "redneck". I have had to travel to the northern mid-west and Canada  quite a lot for work. I remember very much having to 'learn' how some of my contacts spoke. Truly like a different language sometimes. Not enough to be a work hinderance but definitely enough to sometimes be annoying and make for a good laugh. I am sure the folks up there have said the same thing about my speech. 

I have seen Korean terminology written and spoken so many different ways it is kind of sad. Go the 10 school sites with terminology and 8 of them will be different even on the basic terms like body part, direction, and such. 
Since our GM is of full Korean decent with a military background I just follow his lead as best I can. Korean is a very hard language to grasp for me. One thing I really appreciate about him is he will correct someone on the spot most times. Not in a demeaning way at all but does not let too much just slide by.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 23, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Korean is a very hard language to grasp for me


It was difficult for me to.  Learning how to say the words weren't too difficult for me, but learning the sentence structure was more difficult than I could ever imagine.  My biggest mistake was trying to learn a language using English sentence structure as a guide.  I would like to take Korean again in the future or try Chinese again, being that there is more opportunity to be around people who speak it.


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## Tenshin (Jan 23, 2021)

jobo said:


> im intrested in what benifit you think derives from it? im of the opinion there may be some benifit, but id like to know what you think it is and how you quantify it


first benefit: By learning common wording of techniques in native language you can have a better linking of other techniques and even from other styles from that country.

Second benefit: Some words just can not be explained well enough in translations, translating comes up with the closest meaning sometimes a word can be broken down into literal meanings but when you start learning the concept of the language in context you will have a better understanding of the intent of the wording.

Third benefit: If you are discussing an art and culture being respectful and knowledgeable by using the  language associated with said art and culture does make you seem more educated and taken more serious as an expert in said field. Some of these terms have a historical significance and cultural relevance changing the name or some interpretation takes that away. 

Fourth Benefit: Makes cross communication much easier as every country will use the origins original language, I can say Kote Gaeshi and guys from Italy, France, Japan, America understand, if I say English Wrist lock they might think which one.

Just 4 off the top of my head, it is my opinion some may agree some may not.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 23, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> first benefit: By learning common wording of techniques in native language you can have a better linking of other techniques and even from other styles from that country.
> 
> Second benefit: Some words just can not be explained well enough in translations, translating comes up with the closest meaning sometimes a word can be broken down into literal meanings but when you start learning the concept of the language in context you will have a better understanding of the intent of the wording.
> 
> ...


My guess is that there's no disagreement.
If you are looking for something that's not a McDojo then terminology probably is low on the things that make a school a mcdojo.  The school that you are looking at may be a school that really knows there stuff but they are less informed on terminology. I'll use myself as an example.  I could teach you to where you are good at using Jow Ga Kung Fu but your knowledge of Jow Ga terminology will be lacking.  But you'll know more about the techniques than most.

By definition, that wouldn't make me a Mcdojo.  It just makes me knowledgeable for the names. (by the way I'm currently working on just for historical purposes).

You could go to another Jow Ga Instructor who knows all of the terminology, but doesn't use the system to fight with so all of his application instructions are inaccurate and unrealistic.  Because of this lack of understanding he's not able to understand the system beyond the terms and doing a form. If you are looking for a school that will teach you how to use Jow Ga then this school would be a McDojo even though the system is valid. But if the names of the terminology are more important to  you then it's not a McDojo because they provide what you are looking for.

Your original statement "*Im thinking of signing up at this gym but I'm not sure if it's legit,*"
Will mean different things to different people here.  For me and for some of the others here a McDojo is one that claims you'll be able to fight with what they teach, but in reality what they teach is not good for fighting.  In other words they lied.  If a school says that they do it for health then many of us here wouldn't label it as a McDojo.  

A school that is is "legit" means that they the people in the school is knowledgeable at what they teach and can actually use it and teach others how to use it.  For many people "legit" is usually viewed as a functional system


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## Tenshin (Jan 23, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> My guess is that there's no disagreement.
> If you are looking for something that's not a McDojo then terminology probably is low on the things that make a school a mcdojo.  The school that you are looking at may be a school that really knows there stuff but they are less informed on terminology. I'll use myself as an example.  I could teach you to where you are good at using Jow Ga Kung Fu but your knowledge of Jow Ga terminology will be lacking.  But you'll know more about the techniques than most.
> 
> By definition, that wouldn't make me a Mcdojo.  It just makes me knowledgeable for the names. (by the way I'm currently working on just for historical purposes).
> ...


 Before I begin, I speak and read Chinese, I also teach Chinese Martial arts, 

if someone wants to teach Chinese martial arts and not use Chinese terminology that is their business, if someone asks my opinion as a Shifu and who speaks and reads Chinese if someone does not use Chinese terminology in their class what I think, 

I would think it is odd, and maybe think they do not understand the art they are teaching well enough, if it is a Chinese martial art I practice and I happen to see, feel the technique and still see they use some weird name for it, I might offer them the Chinese terminology, ask why they do not learn the Chinese terminology for it, 

if a Shifu still declines I most likely would not take them to serious as a Shifu of that Chinese martial art in my opinion.


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## jobo (Jan 23, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> I think if I was a beginner student, and looking to learn CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS but my teacher could not say anything in Chinese I would most likely look elsewhere because I


yea and if i went to learn  to speak chinese and the instructor couldnt do kung fu,  id look elsewhere coz obviously the two are connected


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 23, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> I would think it is odd, and maybe think they do not understand the art they are teaching well enough, if it is a Chinese martial art I practice and I happen to see, feel the technique and still see they use some weird name for it, I might offer them the Chinese terminology, ask why they do not learn the Chinese terminology for it,
> 
> if a Shifu still declines I most likely would not take them to serious as a Shifu of that Chinese martial art in my opinion


Would you feel the same way if the person didn't understand what they taught enough to be able to apply the technique?  I'm not talking about just repeating how they told a technique is applied.  I mean actually apply it.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 23, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> Before I begin, I speak and read Chinese, I also teach Chinese Martial arts,
> 
> if someone wants to teach Chinese martial arts and not use Chinese terminology that is their business, if someone asks my opinion as a Shifu and who speaks and reads Chinese if someone does not use Chinese terminology in their class what I think,
> 
> ...



What does my ability to speak a foreign language have to do with my ability to teach martial arts skills?


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## Tenshin (Jan 23, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Would you feel the same way if the person didn't understand what they taught enough to be able to apply the technique?  I'm not talking about just repeating how they told a technique is applied.  I mean actually apply it.



If a person does not understand the technique correctly even if they apply it and a result occurs does not mean they understood the the technique's intent is.

If you say you do Judo and only learned Judo and teach Judo, but your terminology for Ude Garami is always Kimura lock other Judoka and especially Judo Sensei's are going to think it is odd, and wonder if you really just train BJJ and not Judo meaning you may not be taken as serious even though you can successfully apply the technique.


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## Tenshin (Jan 23, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> What does my ability to speak a foreign language have to do with my ability to teach martial arts skills?



my opinion is you should use the native languages terminology in teaching said martial art from that country. if you disagree that is fine.


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## drop bear (Jan 23, 2021)

If you teach muay thai. Someone should fight muay thai.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1709721162522350


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## Tenshin (Jan 23, 2021)

drop bear said:


> If you teach muay thai. Someone should fight muay thai.



Do you mean if someone is teaching Muay Thai they should have ring experience?
2 schools of thought on it, some say yes you should IF you are teaching Muay Thai for the ring.
Others will say if you are teaching Muay Thai for self defense, fitness, then no having ring experience is not required.
Some coaches are really good at coaching because they have a good eye and know how to coach and spar.
You would have to go ask guys on Sherdog, Reddit, and other forums with more Muay Thai and Muay Boran people to get more of a response.
But not everyone who is doing Muay wants to go in the ring they are happy hitting pads and bags and sparring.


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## drop bear (Jan 23, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> Do you mean if someone is teaching Muay Thai they should have ring experience?
> 2 schools of thought on it, some say yes you should IF you are teaching Muay Thai for the ring.
> Others will say if you are teaching Muay Thai for self defense, fitness, then no having ring experience is not required.
> Some coaches are really good at coaching because they have a good eye and know how to coach and spar.
> ...



You don't have to fight. But the muay thai should be at a competency level were someone is fighting.

So that if you did want to get in any full contact fight, either it being a muay thai fight or a self defense situation you don't get murdered because nobody knows what they are doing. Because nobody has done the thing they are teaching.

That video is ours and we are not a muay thai school but we can strike at a competency level where if we get in a muay thai fight we won't get murdered.


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## Tenshin (Jan 23, 2021)

drop bear said:


> You don't have to fight. But the muay thai should be at a competency level were someone is fighting.
> 
> So that if you did want to get in any full contact fight, either it being a muay thai fight or a self defense situation you don't get murdered because nobody knows what they are doing. Because nobody has done the thing they are teaching.
> 
> That video is ours and we are not a muay thai school but we can strike at a competency level where if we get in a muay thai fight we won't get murdered.


I think any martial art should be at a competency level with someone in fighting. You do not need a ring to spar someone light or full contact per say. 
Also you have to know your clientele, if I have soccer mom Jenny, and Old man Bob they are not looking to do Muay to fight full contact they are looking to loose weight, blow off steam, and possible self defense, they have no interest in going that direction, in fact most people are not looking to do full contact especially people that are older.


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## drop bear (Jan 23, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> I think any martial art should be at a competency level with someone in fighting. You do not need a ring to spar someone light or full contact per say.
> Also you have to know your clientele, if I have soccer mom Jenny, and Old man Bob they are not looking to do Muay to fight full contact they are looking to loose weight, blow off steam, and possible self defense, they have no interest in going that direction, in fact most people are not looking to do full contact especially people that are older.




The problem you have is a school that equips people to fight can very easily cater for a soccer mum. But a school that doesn't cannot equip that soccer mum to become a fighter.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=326735928001299
			




The same instruction but performed at different levels.


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## Tenshin (Jan 23, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The problem you have is a school that equips people to fight can very easily cater for a soccer mum. But a school that doesn't cannot equip that soccer mum to become a fighter.


Ok your first comment was 
*"If you (are) teach(ing) muay thai. Someone should (be able to) fight (with?) (in?) muay thai."*
 This was your first opinion
The sentence was very difficult to understand 

You then change your stance to:
*"You don't have to fight. But the muay thai should be at a competency level were someone is fighting(with someone?)."*

You then say:
*"The problem you have is a school that equips people to fight(,) can very easily cater for a soccer mum. But a school that (doesn't (or)cannot equip that soccer mum to become a fighter."
*
Here is my definition of "Fighting" The act of in which one or more people are in conflict  be it verbal or physical exchanges to be able to beat an opponent and win.
 it is different then Self Defense which would be defined as using what ever means needed and lawful to end a conflict were the goal is to make it home safe and alive.

I have Zero interest in teaching people how to fight and compete, I do have an interest in teaching people how to achieve the goal of making it home safe and alive.
though being able to defend yourself may be part of fighting the goals are not the same as self defense. 

It is just my opinion.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 23, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The problem you have is a school that equips people to fight can very easily cater for a soccer mum. But a school that doesn't cannot equip that soccer mum to become a fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like the video.  I'm really big into training footwork.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 23, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> Well that is your opinion I will leave it at that since we will disagree and no point in discussing it any further.


There’s really nothing to discuss, since your entire point thus far has been “you should”.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 23, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> first benefit: By learning common wording of techniques in native language you can have a better linking of other techniques and even from other styles from that country.
> 
> Second benefit: Some words just can not be explained well enough in translations, translating comes up with the closest meaning sometimes a word can be broken down into literal meanings but when you start learning the concept of the language in context you will have a better understanding of the intent of the wording.
> 
> ...


It’s my experience that much of that doesn’t work the way you suggest. Terms are often poorly understood, having only the context of the training, and lead to misunderstanding of context. The poor usage (and misusage) doesn’t really do much to honor the origin, and there’s enough drift in each area that it doesn’t add much clarity unless there are strong ties back to the origin country (Judo and Ueshiba’s Aikido might fit this). 

I’d agree this can work better with larger organizations, but I’ve seen language cause misunderstanding even then.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 23, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> my opinion is you should use the native languages terminology in teaching said martial art from that country. if you disagree that is fine.


I know at least one Japanese founder who disagreed, and used English terms. In Japan.


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## Tenshin (Jan 23, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> There’s really nothing to discuss, since your entire point thus far has been “you should”.



Ok go search Aikido terminology and most websites will have a list of the terms in Japanese with English translation, most Aikido dojo do not teach the techniques in English they say ikkyo nikkyo you know around the world thousands of Aikido dojo do this.


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## Tenshin (Jan 23, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> It’s my experience that much of that doesn’t work the way you suggest. Terms are often poorly understood, having only the context of the training, and lead to misunderstanding of context. The poor usage (and misusage) doesn’t really do much to honor the origin, and there’s enough drift in each area that it doesn’t add much clarity unless there are strong ties back to the origin country (Judo and Ueshiba’s Aikido might fit this).
> 
> I’d agree this can work better with larger organizations, but I’ve seen language cause misunderstanding even then.


Koryu arts do not use english they do not care if you do or do not understand the language.


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## drop bear (Jan 23, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> Ok your first comment was
> *"If you (are) teach(ing) muay thai. Someone should (be able to) fight (with?) (in?) muay thai."*
> This was your first opinion
> The sentence was very difficult to understand
> ...



Someone in that gym should be able to fight. And should have had fights. Someone in that gym should have been able to teach someone else to fight and they should have had fights.

And that experience should be the model that the instruction is based off.

Because then you can tell at least one component of self defence works.  Which is why ring fighting is important to development.

From there you can take what works and adjust it to achieve a different goal.

So MMA has a different goal to muay thai. But because fighting works.It is not a big leap to adjust the goal.

This is the same when we talk about the transition from a ring sport to self defence.

But when your fighting doesn't work in mma or muay thai or anywhere anyone can see. You are going to have a very hard time adjusting that to self defence.


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## Tenshin (Jan 23, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I know at least one Japanese founder who disagreed, and used English terms. In Japan.


Great 1 out of thousands over hundreds of years.
Having been to Japan and lived there most Japanese are not fluent in English nor will put their techniques in English if anything it would be Japanese English, its just odd. I have never been to a dojo in Japan and the sensei spoke everything in English, he might say one or 2 words in English to help you as in most cases you may be the only English speaking guy there but since if he is popular and has people all over the world he will most likely request you learn Japanese. 

One of my Japanese teachers commented on a group that only uses English terminology she said they can never learn the deeper essence of the art as it is intended because they do not speak or read Japanese.  If you really want to speak English only in your school I have said many times do it, it is your business, my students are glad I teach them the language, the history, the culture and tradition that gives them a deeper understanding that someone who doesn't speak the language. I study Japanese arts and Aiki specific arts too, I am familiar with Nihon Goshin Aikido and how it is one of the only Aiki arts that uses English specifically because almost every other organization for Aikido, Daito ryu, Hakko ryu,Nami heiho around the world use Japanese terminology.


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## dvcochran (Jan 23, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Would you feel the same way if the person didn't understand what they taught enough to be able to apply the technique?  I'm not talking about just repeating how they told a technique is applied.  I mean actually apply it.


Agree, however speaking a technique and applying/performing a technique are two completely different things. It is fine if they are closely connected by a persons/schools/systems preference but not at all necessary to the learning. 
 You are never going to defeat an opponent by loudly saying 'front kick' or 'ap chagi'. 
I am sure I use Korean terminology technical terms more than our GM does in class. But when he goes into detailed explanation get ready for a ton of Korean term reference.


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## drop bear (Jan 23, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I like the video.  I'm really big into training footwork.



He is an exceptional coach.


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## dvcochran (Jan 23, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> Great 1 out of thousands over hundreds of years.
> Having been to Japan and lived there most Japanese are not fluent in English nor will put their techniques in English if anything it would be Japanese English, its just odd. I have never been to a dojo in Japan and the sensei spoke everything in English, he might say one or 2 words in English to help you as in most cases you may be the only English speaking guy there but since if he is popular and has people all over the world he will most likely request you learn Japanese.
> 
> One of my Japanese teachers commented on a group that only uses English terminology she said they can never learn the deeper essence of the art as it is intended because they do not speak or read Japanese.  If you really want to speak English only in your school I have said many times do it, it is your business, my students are glad I teach them the language, the history, the culture and tradition that gives them a deeper understanding that someone who doesn't speak the language. I study Japanese arts and Aiki specific arts too, I am familiar with Nihon Goshin Aikido and how it is one of the only Aiki arts that uses English specifically because almost every other organization for Aikido, Daito ryu, Hakko ryu,Nami heiho around the world use Japanese terminology.


True enough; but your experience is not typical. I fully understand your perspective based on having lived in Japan. 
But the language is Not the technique. Frankly, the "deeper essence" comment is the kind of crap that has hurt and held back many styles and schools for decades.


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## Tenshin (Jan 23, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Someone in that gym should be able to fight. And should have had fight. Someone in that gym should have been able to teach someone else to fight and they should have had fights.
> 
> And that experience should be the model that the instruction is based off.
> 
> ...


Again you keep using the ring as the measuring stick. 
I explained to you 2 schools of thought. Some think you should have had fights in a ring some say you do not.
I think you do not need to fight in a ring if you are sparing, and your goal is not to compete or fight in a ring. 
I also said the difference between fighting and self defense I have said they are not the same thing, fighting, the goal is to win and beat your opponent.
Self defense is being able to get home safe and in some cases you do not engage with an opponent. I teach self defense not fighting.

Well if I was a bouncer, and have been in street fights, have been in fights with guns and knives would you want me to teach you self defense for a street encounter or a guy
who fought in a ring? If you want to be a ring fighter go learn how to fight in a ring, if you want to be able to use your Muay for someone who pulls a knife on you train with the guy who bounces and has dealt with a knife before.

Most MMA guys do not know how to deal with multiple attackers, knife defense, gun defense they do not train for it. Most MMA gyms, BJJ gyms train for competitions with rules depending on which art you are doing.  Can you modify it for self defense sure IF you know how to modify it for self defense which goes back to you need a guy who has been in those situations to teach it. Your coach who has never been in a knife fight can not say well you do a kimura and that is how you disarm someone with a knife.

I know your stance is Ring, BJJ, MMA and all else that does not follow this formula is wrong, I know that is your mantra you have rehashed this on this forum to almost every member through the last 16 years since you have been here, I have read your posts.


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## Tenshin (Jan 23, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> True enough; but your experience is not typical. I fully understand your perspective based on having lived in Japan.
> But the language is Not the technique. Frankly, the "deeper essence" comment is the kind of crap that has hurt and held back many styles and schools for decades.


Kesa Giri is the technique used in Kenjutsu. In English people might say it is a Downward diagonal cut. however the cut is to cut a Kesa this has a meaning behind it. This term if you know it in one kenjutsu school the meaning can also be used in another. Downward Diagonal cut might mean something else in english in another kenjutsu school but Kesa giri remains the same meaning in all kenjutsu schools


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## drop bear (Jan 23, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> Again you keep using the ring as the measuring stick.
> I explained to you 2 schools of thought. Some think you should have had fights in a ring some say you do not.
> I think you do not need to fight in a ring if you are sparing, and your goal is not to compete or fight in a ring.
> I also said the difference between fighting and self defense I have said they are not the same thing, fighting, the goal is to win and beat your opponent.
> ...



Then you find a MMA gym that can do knife defence, gun defence and so on.

I am not sure how you are arriving at this either or issue.





For example the concepts used to cut off a person in the ring are the same concepts used to cut off multiple oponants.


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## Tenshin (Jan 23, 2021)

If I do not respond to your message it is most likely I have you on ignore


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## drop bear (Jan 23, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> If I do not respond to your message it is most likely I have you on ignore



But you will miss out on integrated MMA rocking out stick drills because the instructor trained with Dan insanto.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=3517380384972485


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## oftheherd11 (Jan 23, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It was difficult for me to.  Learning how to say the words weren't too difficult for me, but learning the sentence structure was more difficult than I could ever imagine.  *My biggest mistake was trying to learn a language using English sentence structure as a guide.*  I would like to take Korean again in the future or try Chinese again, being that there is more opportunity to be around people who speak it.



Overly simplified, but Korean does indeed have a sentence structure totally different from English.  English and other languages that give meaning by the distribution of words in the sentence, usually with the subject being before the verb, and the object being after the verb. Korean gives meaning by word helpers which follow some words to identify subjects, and objects by those helpers, not by where they are in the sentence.

And you are not alone in trying to sort that out. 

And yet Korean is not hard to learn.  I know because I have seen so many little kids learn Korean without even a little problem, while I struggled terribly.  

Chinese will have its own difficulties since it is a tonal language.  You can have the same combination of letters, but different meanings based on the tone, such as a rising tone, falling tone, or whatever.  I think Chinese has 4 tones.  Vietnamese has 5 tones in the south, and 6 in the north.  Try that on for size.


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## oftheherd11 (Jan 23, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> When you learn an art you should learn the terminology of the art.
> When I study Muay Thai and Muay Boran the terminology is in Thai, When I do Karate the terms are in Japanese.  When I teach we use the terminology of the arts language and not English



I think one would have to become fluent in the native tongue and even then one might require some added instruction in the philosophy proposed by the words combined with the object of the technique.  Of course you are free to agree or disagree.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 23, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> One of my Japanese teachers commented on a group that only uses English terminology she said they can never learn the deeper essence of the art as it is intended because they do not speak or read Japanese.


 Sounds like a cultural issue to me and not a Martial Arts one.



dvcochran said:


> Agree, however speaking a technique and applying/performing a technique are two completely different things. It is fine if they are closely connected by a persons/schools/systems preference but not at all necessary to the learning.
> You are never going to defeat an opponent by loudly saying 'front kick' or 'ap chagi'.
> I am sure I use Korean terminology technical terms more than our GM does in class. But when he goes into detailed explanation get ready for a ton of Korean term reference.


I was just curious if he would feel the same way about the quality of instruction if a person only knew the technique names in the native language but was clueless of how to actually use them.  The OP didn't give me a yes or no answer to that question.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 23, 2021)

oftheherd11 said:


> And yet Korean is not hard to learn. I know because I have seen so many little kids learn Korean without even a little problem, while I struggled terribly.


That's why I think I'll do better a second time around.  I just need to ignore the English sentence structure.  Treat it more like slang which often destroys English sentence structure.   I need to just speak it and not try to use English as a guide to create the sentence.  

I've been watching a lot of Korean shows and I try to repeat phrase and tones that I hear.  I do the same with Japanese shows.  I also watch kid shows that teach Korean kids how to speak Korean.  I'll give a good try for a year and see what happens.  lol

I'm tone death so that's a disadvantage of me.  It should make for some interesting conversations though. ha ha ha.


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## Tenshin (Jan 23, 2021)

oftheherd11 said:


> I think one would have to become fluent in the native tongue and even then one might require some added instruction in the philosophy proposed by the words combined with the object of the technique.  Of course you are free to agree or disagree.


For my classes we count in Japanese for Japanese arts and Chinese in Chinese arts. We use in our syllabus Japanese terms like kote Gaeshi, ippon, gyaku nothing were a person has to speak a sentence, if you walk in most Karate, Aikido, Judo schools they all use Japanese terminology from mawashi geri, to ikkyo, to ippon seoi nage. 
 When in the last 40 years did every dojo around the world stop using the terminology and started just using english words to replace them?


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 23, 2021)

drop bear said:


> He is an exceptional coach.


Show me any coach that says footwork is important then proceeds to train it often, and I'll be first in line to train under that person.  I never knew how bad some people's footwork was until I watched those Kung Fu Masters vs MMA videos.  That was the first time I've seen panicked footwork. Which is a big thing because I have video of kids sparring and taking hard shots, but they don't have panicked footwork.  So to see that from someone who claims to have 20+ years of experience is really shocking.  You can see videos of One legged fighters with better footwork.  

A lot of what I heard in that video is stuff that I've always have heard from people who actually apply their skill sets. From soccer to basketball and everything in between they all drill footwork regularly. If I go to a school and they do nothing for footwork, then I would walk out of the school.  I wouldn't care how much they knew because it would be weak without good footwork.  Footwork is so important that if someone ask me to only choose 1 to teach for the first 3 months,  I would choose footwork easily.


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## dvcochran (Jan 23, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> Kesa Giri is the technique used in Kenjutsu. In English people might say it is a Downward diagonal cut. however the cut is to cut a Kesa this has a meaning behind it. This term if you know it in one kenjutsu school the meaning can also be used in another. Downward Diagonal cut might mean something else in english in another kenjutsu school but Kesa giri remains the same meaning in all kenjutsu schools


Welcome to translation blips. It can really get confusing going to different Korean schools. There is not a truly universal language/word set that I am aware of. Languages like English get really sloppy. Pick up a language and move it 6,000 miles and time and human influence will definitely affect it.
I know just enough Japanese to think the term has something to do with a sword.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 23, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Then you find a MMA gym that can do knife defence, gun defence and so on.
> 
> I am not sure how you are arriving at this either or issue.
> 
> ...


That's pretty good.  Sound like everyone was getting a good workout there going against multiple people.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 23, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Welcome to translation blips. It can really get confusing going to different Korean schools. There is not a truly universal language/word set that I am aware of. Languages like English get really sloppy. Pick up a language and move it 6,000 miles and time and human influence will definitely affect it.
> I know just enough Japanese to think the term has something to do with a sword.


I agree with sloppy English.  US English absorbs a lot of other languages and becomes English.  Then we make up a lot of words and phrasess which doesn't help.


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## isshinryuronin (Jan 23, 2021)

Regarding the use of native language terminology - this is not restricted to the Oriental martial arts.  European fencing uses French.  Opera uses Italian.  Zoologic and medical nomenclature uses mostly Latin.  Geology uses much German.  Flight controllers use English.  This takes care of the problem of communicating internationally, as well as paying homage to the country which historically popularized the discipline.  In the US, we have hoagies, subs, and poor boy sandwiches - they are all the same thing, but regionally go by different names.  Confusion can occur.  This is avoided by everyone sharing the same discipline as you sharing the same terminology.

If your world is small, terminology is not so important.  If you never venture out of your dojo, you can call things whatever you want - punch #1, kick #3, grab #12, peeling a banana, kissing the dragon, whatever.   In old Okinawa, they didn't even do that.  The teacher would simply demo a move and say "Do this."  Worked well with one teacher and four or five regular students.  As communication with others around the country and around the world becomes easier and more common, it is nice if we know what each other is talking about.

When I moved to rural South Carolina, I found the need to find common terminology.  Asking for directions, I would be told, "Take the 2 lane a ways and make a left at the abandoned gas station."  Now, "a ways" to me meant a couple of miles.  Not in rural SC!  I learned to rephrase the question to where we shared common terminology.  "How long will it take to get to that gas station?"  The reply, "About a half hour."  So my initial understanding of 2 miles was actually closer to 20.  Luckily I discovered that using time terminology was better than using local distance terminology. 

No doubt, the locals perfectly understood how far "a ways" was.  Besides, who didn't know that gas station?  It was common knowledge Old man Jenkins shot his foot off with a shotgun and abandoned the station 8 years ago.  Communication is subject to our own experiences and filters.  So, it's a good thing whenever we can agree on specific terminology.


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## oftheherd11 (Jan 23, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's why I think I'll do better a second time around.  I just need to ignore the English sentence structure.  Treat it more like slang which often destroys English sentence structure.   I need to just speak it and not try to use English as a guide to create the sentence.
> 
> I've been watching a lot of Korean shows and I try to repeat phrase and tones that I hear.  I do the same with Japanese shows.  I also watch kid shows that teach Korean kids how to speak Korean.  I'll give a good try for a year and see what happens.  lol
> 
> *I'm tone death so that's a disadvantage of me.  It should make for some interesting conversations though. ha ha ha*.



You've no idea.  I have made some of the most unbelievable mistakes in Spanish and Vietnamese as you could never imagine.  Sometimes amusing and sometimes making people angry.


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## oftheherd11 (Jan 23, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> For my classes we count in Japanese for Japanese arts and Chinese in Chinese arts. We use in our syllabus Japanese terms like kote Gaeshi, ippon, gyaku nothing were a person has to speak a sentence, if you walk in most Karate, Aikido, Judo schools they all use Japanese terminology from mawashi geri, to ikkyo, to ippon seoi nage.
> When in the last 40 years did every dojo around the world stop using the terminology and started just using english words to replace them?



Ah, well that is not how I understood what you were saying before.  Counting is not what I would consider extensive learning and use of a language which is what I thought you meant.  Most use of counting that I have encountered in some dojos doesn't usually go past 20.  Is that what you meant by learning a language native to the art?

As to your last sentence, not having been in every dojo around the world in the last 40 years, I am at a loss to answer that.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 23, 2021)

oftheherd11 said:


> Ah, well that is not how I understood what you were saying before.  Counting is not what I would consider extensive learning and use of a language which is what I thought you meant.  Most use of counting that I have encountered in some dojos doesn't usually go past 20.  Is that what you meant by learning a language native to the art?
> 
> As to your last sentence, not having been in every dojo around the world in the last 40 years, I am at a loss to answer that.


The OP is saying that the knowledge of native terminology reflects your knowledge of a system.  If a person doesn't know the terminology then your knowledge of the system is questionable.  So I asked what if a person knows the terminology, but not how to apply the techniques.  Would the same be done to that person.  If knowing the terminology is the only way to validate someone's knowledge of the system then it doesn't matter if a school is a McDojo or not as martial art application is not taken into consideration.  When most people think of a McDojo they tend to think of a school who say they train real fighting techniques, but in reality, they have very little understanding of techniques and how to use them.

So this would be acceptable knowledge if the teacher knows all of the terminology in the native language of the system, but doesn't know the application.





If the teacher knows how to apply the techniques but changes the language of the terminology then the OP wouldn't train in that school.  The OP wouldn't train under these guys because they aren't using the Thai terminology





I'm pretty sure "The matador knee" is not a Thai name.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> Ok go search Aikido terminology and most websites will have a list of the terms in Japanese with English translation, most Aikido dojo do not teach the techniques in English they say ikkyo nikkyo you know around the world thousands of Aikido dojo do this.


Yes, and I referenced Ueshiba's Aikido as an example of where this has worked. What's your point?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> Koryu arts do not use english they do not care if you do or do not understand the language.


Yes, and Koryu arts have a purpose that goes beyond learning to fight. Part of their purpose - as has been explained to me by someone who is involved deeply in them - is to maintain the tradition of the art for its own sake. Nothing about that really supports the assertion that someone learning an art that orginated in another country _*should*_ learn the terminolgy in the original language.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> Great 1 out of thousands over hundreds of years.
> Having been to Japan and lived there most Japanese are not fluent in English nor will put their techniques in English if anything it would be Japanese English, its just odd. I have never been to a dojo in Japan and the sensei spoke everything in English, he might say one or 2 words in English to help you as in most cases you may be the only English speaking guy there but since if he is popular and has people all over the world he will most likely request you learn Japanese.
> 
> One of my Japanese teachers commented on a group that only uses English terminology she said they can never learn the deeper essence of the art as it is intended because they do not speak or read Japanese.  If you really want to speak English only in your school I have said many times do it, it is your business, my students are glad I teach them the language, the history, the culture and tradition that gives them a deeper understanding that someone who doesn't speak the language. I study Japanese arts and Aiki specific arts too, I am familiar with Nihon Goshin Aikido and how it is one of the only Aiki arts that uses English specifically because almost every other organization for Aikido, Daito ryu, Hakko ryu,Nami heiho around the world use Japanese terminology.


I doubt folks learning the terminology in a foreign language - without learning the full language to a reasonable competency - are getting any real understanding from that terminology. Yes, there is often some nuance lost when something is translated, but that nuance is still lost when the words are used without really understanding the language.

I didn't contest whether your students would get any benefit from learning tradition and language. I took issue with your assertion that that's how it _* should *_ be. If I want to learn language and tradition, there are places to do that. Many people don't really want that. I strongly assert that the tradition and language do NOT have a direct tie to understanding the principles of an art, beyond any philosophical principles (which are often deeply cultural). Bodies work the same way in any language.


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## dvcochran (Jan 24, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I agree with sloppy English.  US English absorbs a lot of other languages and becomes English.  Then we make up a lot of words and phrasess which doesn't help.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jan 24, 2021)

I dont know how it started or this is relivent but since its on lingustics.

The dialect you translate anothers langauge into seems to matter a lot, i was thinking about it for how you would teach what ever langauge to english speakers from diffrent dialects.   Like the nuance of using Street or Road or if the langauge in translate has a word for both of them.


I do not how ever get why Filipino martial arts uses Spanish(in English speaking countries) still, English is a recognised langauge.  So if they are teaching FMA in say the US, why bother using Spanish?   You are talking to people in English, in a English speaking country, is there any point in shoving in choice words of Spanish in there for names?  Names that have English translations mind you.     Obviously, if they dont know this langauge, they obviously wont use it, but thats sort of besides the point.  (and yes Spanish is regonsied in the Philipines so are a lot of regional langauges, but i would question why you wouldnt use pure Spanish in Spain?   I dont think they would go about it the same way in Spain if they are using Spanish as they would in say the U.S)

Kind of rambley, but its sort of always bugged me to just use choice words from a foreign langauge, unless you are learning it.  (but that has little place in teaching as it just breeds confusion)  Like, you are both English, in a country where English is a recognised langauge or the main langauge, just use English.       I also semi view it as disrespectful a you arent learning the langauge, just choice words and phrases in it. 





gpseymour said:


> Yes, and Koryu arts have a purpose that goes beyond learning to fight. Part of their purpose - as has been explained to me by someone who is involved deeply in them - is to maintain the tradition of the art for its own sake. Nothing about that really supports the assertion that someone learning an art that orginated in another country _*should*_ learn the terminolgy in the original language.



Koryu has legitmately confused me.  Granted its a expanisve term for any martial arts before the Meji restoriation, so generalising it to anything is pretty hard to do and has issues. But i have seen people claim their group is for hisotrical preservation (and they do exist for that goal) so they are effectively the Japanese version of a HEMA club or a liviing history group (although hyper focused on martial technique preservation).  But then my issue there is, secrets have no place in historical preservation, if you want it preserved all your information needs to be open and doccumented.  Keeping things secret is counter intiative for continued preserverance of this knowledge.  (the previous model seems to be the main model Koryu follows though, so this would be a fair assertion, the (main)rule in koryu is historical preservation)

But, we all know the elephant in the room, there are people who claim the previously stated model is "great for self defence", or mis undertstand the purpose of it. (be that their fault or the schools fault, or both parties)  Exeptions to the rule exist, but its not really Koryu anyore by definition if it tackles contemporary issues and fighting in the contemporary world its*.    I also know martial arts schools have been a front for paramilitary training and the like.    Anyway before my ramblings go way off topic, i just had to get those two off my chest and they arent so far gone.   (this is wihtout getting into the dynamics of naming and names not alway being reflective of what is done)


* I completely forgot the word that is used here, like drew a complete blank.  What ever the word that denotes the martial arts in japan post Meji restoration goes here.  I thought it was Budo but thats martial way, and Kobudo and Koryu are effectively synonyms here.


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## Tez3 (Jan 25, 2021)

Tenshin said:


> first benefit: By learning common wording of techniques in native language you can have a better linking of other techniques and even from other styles from that country.
> 
> Second benefit: Some words just can not be explained well enough in translations, translating comes up with the closest meaning sometimes a word can be broken down into literal meanings but when you start learning the concept of the language in context you will have a better understanding of the intent of the wording.
> 
> ...




It's going to depend very much on how the words are pronounced whether people from other countries understand it or not. I've heard some very different pronunciations of the same Japanese word due to regional accents as well as the very different pronunciations between British English and American English, the word 'bouy' comes to mind.  In both the meaning  is the same  but pronounced differently enough to be very confusing to understand. This would get more confused with people used to different languages using the word. 
Non speakers of Japanese/Chinese/Thai etc. could make things harder and less comprehensible by pronouncing words wrongly.


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## drop bear (Jan 25, 2021)

Rat said:


> The dialect you translate anothers langauge into seems to matter a lot, i was thinking about it for how you would teach what ever langauge to english speakers from diffrent dialects. Like the nuance of using Street or Road or if the langauge in translate has a word for both of them.



A lot of the concepts don't have other names. What is the English translation for hubad?


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## dvcochran (Jan 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> A lot of the concepts don't have other names. What is the English translation for hubad?


That one is rather easy; naked


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## BrendanF (Jan 25, 2021)

Rat said:


> I do not how ever get why Filipino martial arts uses Spanish(in English speaking countries) still, English is a recognised langauge.  So if they are teaching FMA in say the US, why bother using Spanish?   You are talking to people in English, in a English speaking country, is there any point in shoving in choice words of Spanish in there for names?  Names that have English translations mind you.     Obviously, if they dont know this langauge, they obviously wont use it, but thats sort of besides the point.



Perhaps it's because there are people who want to learn the art?

This issue seems to me to be emblematic of a trend towards entitlement and a lack of appreciation of the learning process, and the proprietary nature of some knowledge.

We have people these days on the one hand asking for instruction from someone, in a topic they don't know yet (hence the instruction) BUT then deciding that they know how best they should be instructed.

It seems to me that if a teacher of Filipino MA wanted to teach his/her MA using the language they are familiar with... that's kinda their right.  Feels to me like going to a boxing gym and telling the coach 'no, I want you to call a hook a loop, a cross a straight and and uppercut a pitch'.





Rat said:


> Koryu has legitmately confused me.  Granted its a expanisve term for any martial arts before the Meji restoriation, so generalising it to anything is pretty hard to do and has issues. But i have seen people claim their group is for hisotrical preservation (and they do exist for that goal) so they are effectively the Japanese version of a HEMA club or a liviing history group (although hyper focused on martial technique preservation).  But then my issue there is, secrets have no place in historical preservation, if you want it preserved all your information needs to be open and doccumented.  Keeping things secret is counter intiative for continued preserverance of this knowledge.  (the previous model seems to be the main model Koryu follows though, so this would be a fair assertion, the (main)rule in koryu is historical preservation)
> 
> But, we all know the elephant in the room, there are people who claim the previously stated model is "great for self defence", or mis undertstand the purpose of it. (be that their fault or the schools fault, or both parties)  Exeptions to the rule exist, but its not really Koryu anyore by definition if it tackles contemporary issues and fighting in the contemporary world its*.    I also know martial arts schools have been a front for paramilitary training and the like.    Anyway before my ramblings go way off topic, i just had to get those two off my chest and they arent so far gone.   (this is wihtout getting into the dynamics of naming and names not alway being reflective of what is done)
> 
> ...



I think you have misread what was intended by the idea of 'historical preservation'.  Koryu are entirely about the continuation of the ryu - that is what the 'stream (of knowledge)' refers to.  But that does not mean 'they are effectively HEMA or a living history group'. They are neither.  HEMA people re-create from old manuscripts what they think HEMA looked like.  Living history groups exist to share history with people.

Koryu are not interested in sharing with people.  Nor are they specifically interested in 'preservation' in the sense that you imply - unchanging, re-enacting.  It CAN be koryu and address contemporary scenarios, if the ryu decides to- koryu can and do change in physical shape, while aiming to continue the essence or key character of the ryu.

I think you were looking for 'gendai budo' - 'modern MA'


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> A lot of the concepts don't have other names. What is the English translation for hubad?


If we don’t have a usable translation, how do we explain the term to new students?


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## BrendanF (Jan 25, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> If we don’t have a usable translation, how do we explain the term to new students?



How could you not have a usable translation?  Presumably if you are teaching the term, you can present the translation you were taught?


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## drop bear (Jan 25, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> If we don’t have a usable translation, how do we explain the term to new students?



The same way you would explain anything that doesn't have a comparable concept.

What do you call a  computer?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The same way you would explain anything that doesn't have a comparable concept.
> 
> What do you call a  computer?


That was my point. If we can explain it sufficiently, then we have the words for the concept. The problem is likely to be brevity or overlapping concepts (where the original word may be able to communicate both, but our translation needs two terms).


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jan 25, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> Perhaps it's because there are people who want to learn the art?



they are generally going there to learn the fighting method usually.    I generally hold the stance going to a martial art for cultrual reasons is shoddy samr with langauge.  you get maybe a very  high notes version of it and maybe a high notes version of a antiquatated version of the culture. 





BrendanF said:


> It seems to me that if a teacher of Filipino MA wanted to teach his/her MA using the language they are familiar with... that's kinda their right. Feels to me like going to a boxing gym and telling the coach 'no, I want you to call a hook a loop, a cross a straight and and uppercut a pitch'.



they should in theory be familiar in english if they are teaching it ina  english speaking nation, or be familiar in English due to its recognised langauge status in the philipines.   Generally speaking you tend to learn your regional one (if you have one) then one or both of the state wide ones.  Like in Wales you should end up learning both English and Welsh. 

Anyway, its a slippery slope for me that i am not fully comfortable with, if they only know say Spanish then the argument is void, they will use Spanish and get a translator. 






BrendanF said:


> I think you have misread what was intended by the idea of 'historical preservation'. Koryu are entirely about the continuation of the ryu - that is what the 'stream (of knowledge)' refers to. But that does not mean 'they are effectively HEMA or a living history group'. They are neither. HEMA people re-create from old manuscripts what they think HEMA looked like. Living history groups exist to share history with people.



That just looks like what i wrote and just rewording it.  Now onto what HEMA is, HEMA and Koryu are pretty much the same, the only reason they differ is due to the circusmtances surrounding most HEMA, most HEMA died, therefor needs to be reseracted from avalible sources.     There are some Koryus that have died and been resserected.  And last i checked to preserve something you are probbly going to have to look into old treatises anyway as a refrence and to see waht previous people have stated on the matter.  

Living history is a muilti faceted term, and largely exsits to fill the gaps in doccuemntation and material culture and actually living it, ergo you show and live how they would live in the peorid to better undertsand how it would be done and to fill in some of the holes for some of the more mundane tasks and the like.   there is no prerequsit of publicity in it.    (they normally do as its generally more entertaining than pure academics)




BrendanF said:


> Koryu are not interested in sharing with people. Nor are they specifically interested in 'preservation' in the sense that you imply - unchanging, re-enacting. It CAN be koryu and address contemporary scenarios, if the ryu decides to- koryu can and do change in physical shape, while aiming to continue the essence or key character of the ryu.



See this is the issue in regards to addressing literally half of the martial arts in Japan, its really expansive.    But glossing over what i have addressed before about my views on doccuemntation and secrets.  

I dont think they can be koryu and address contemporary issues, what really makes them koryu and not a post meji martial art?   There is a very definitive thin line if you start to play about with it.   Like i could maybe forgive you holding a seminar for modern japanese self defence law and weapons law so you get some practical value out of your knowleddge but i think thats pushing it.     We are probbly going to have to agree to disagree on that one, its very semantical.   (this is not to mean a punch counter made in 1100 is going to be fundementally diffrent just because it was made in 1100 as opposed to now, principles of attack and defence remain the same out of the finite pool of functional principles and techniques)


Addednum:  didnt really acknowledge the second paragraph when i wrote my first paragraph on koryu.   I dont think it matters that much as opposed to me trying to reword my reply to two but in case it does a notation, so it might look off. 



BrendanF said:


> I think you were looking for 'gendai budo' - 'modern MA'


Not sure if that was the one, but as long as its definition fits it doesnt matter for specfics.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jan 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> A lot of the concepts don't have other names. What is the English translation for hubad?



They do normally have another version in the host langauge, it wont be 1:1 but thats the best you have.   Best example i have is, why explain what Mushin is, when you can just use a English or (insert langauge here) term that everyone knows in the class and save the time explaining it to get the point across.    I usually end up having to ask what the injected foreign words mean, as you have probbly seen where somone uses something like "sobe" or "kihon"* (now i know what both are, well unsure of the first)    Lord help you if the word means something diffrent in English, like Gun.  In Chinese martial arts thats a form of staff, now you tell me what that is in English?  something completely diffrent.

* You could just easily use Teacher and Basics/Fundementals.

I am not that militantly agaisnt it, i jsut dont see the point if they dont have any intrest in learning the langauge just to inject some bastardisation of the host culture into someone who doesnt live there and probbly has no want or desire to and just wants to hit things.  (people who have a want and desire for culture dont generally seek out MA schools as a first choice, its normally langauge and culture classes)  It should really be a opt in system.

Addendum: I think it was aptly expalined by Gp in his conversation with you after.


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## dvcochran (Jan 25, 2021)

Anyone else notice the OP never responded back since the first post? Yet there have been 4 pages of responses.


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## drop bear (Jan 25, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> That was my point. If we can explain it sufficiently, then we have the words for the concept. The problem is likely to be brevity or overlapping concepts (where the original word may be able to communicate both, but our translation needs two terms).



Gotcha. So you don't need a usable trantranslation to explain


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## BrendanF (Jan 26, 2021)

Rat said:


> they are generally going there to learn the fighting method usually.    I generally hold the stance going to a martial art for cultrual reasons is shoddy samr with langauge.  you get maybe a very  high notes version of it and maybe a high notes version of a antiquatated version of the culture.



I generally hold to the idea that it's not wise to assume to know the motivations of an entire population of people myself.  Do you think it's a smart move to approach a teacher and tell them what aspect of their art they should teach you?




Rat said:


> they should in theory be familiar in english if they are teaching it ina  english speaking nation, or be familiar in English due to its recognised langauge status in the philipines.   Generally speaking you tend to learn your regional one (if you have one) then one or both of the state wide ones.  Like in Wales you should end up learning both English and Welsh.
> 
> Anyway, its a slippery slope for me that i am not fully comfortable with, if they only know say Spanish then the argument is void, they will use Spanish and get a translator.



Regardless of what languages a teacher speaks, if they choose to teach you terms from the art's original language - your position is that you should be able to tell them not to?




Rat said:


> That just looks like what i wrote and just rewording it.  Now onto what HEMA is, HEMA and Koryu are pretty much the same, the only reason they differ is due to the circusmtances surrounding most HEMA, most HEMA died, therefor needs to be reseracted from avalible sources.     There are some Koryus that have died and been resserected.  And last i checked to preserve something you are probbly going to have to look into old treatises anyway as a refrence and to see waht previous people have stated on the matter.



I can only say I disagree, and think you have missed my point.

HEMA and koryu are not at all the same.  HEMA by definition re-create technique; there are no extant continuing schools of archaic western swordsmanship.  NO koryu have 'died and been resurrected'.  That is literally counter to the definition of koryu.  The reason koryu don't need to 'look into old treatises' (though they have them, and do) is because they have been continuously taught since their creation.





Rat said:


> See this is the issue in regards to addressing literally half of the martial arts in Japan, its really expansive.    But glossing over what i have addressed before about my views on doccuemntation and secrets.
> 
> I dont think they can be koryu and address contemporary issues, what really makes them koryu and not a post meji martial art?   There is a very definitive thin line if you start to play about with it.   Like i could maybe forgive you holding a seminar for modern japanese self defence law and weapons law so you get some practical value out of your knowleddge but i think thats pushing it.     We are probbly going to have to agree to disagree on that one, its very semantical.   (this is not to mean a punch counter made in 1100 is going to be fundementally diffrent just because it was made in 1100 as opposed to now, principles of attack and defence remain the same out of the finite pool of functional principles and techniques)



Well, for someone who said koryu confuse you, you sure seem set in your views on them.  This discusses the issue, and Ms Skoss says it better than I can:
Keiko Shokon Revisited: Introduction


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## jobo (Jan 26, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> I generally hold to the idea that it's not wise to assume to know the motivations of an entire population of people myself.  Do you think it's a smart move to approach a teacher and tell them what aspect of their art they should teach you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


as a paying customer, you really should have the moral right to be instructed in the language of the country the instruction is taking place, going to japan and insisting on english may be pushing it to far, but if they have the capacity to provided an english translation they really should

when my instructor uses japanese, i look at him blankly till he provides it in english, if he didnt i would still be stood there at the end of class and would then go somewhere else that was more accommodating

i have no wish at all to learn a few words of japanese or any Japanese for that matter( i maxed out my useful requirment with karaoke) and unless someone can make a case that kicks are better if called something else, i cant see any good reason to go to the bother


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jan 26, 2021)

Star Wars Reaction GIF by Disney+ - Find & Share on GIPHY

As is the norm

Cant get it to embed.


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## dvcochran (Jan 26, 2021)

jobo said:


> as a paying customer, you really should have the moral right to be instructed in the language of the country the instruction is taking place, going to japan and insisting on english may be pushing it to far, but if they have the capacity to provided an english translation they really should
> 
> when my instructor uses japanese, i look at him blankly till he provides it in english, if he didnt i would still be stood there at the end of class and would then go somewhere else that was more accommodating
> 
> i have no wish at all to learn a few words of japanese or any Japanese for that matter( i maxed out my useful requirment with karaoke) and unless someone can make a case that kicks are better if called something else, i cant see any good reason to go to the bother


You non-conformist you.


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## jobo (Jan 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The same way you would explain anything that doesn't have a comparable concept.
> 
> What do you call a  computer?


computer are some what different, everyone in the world calls them computers,  most invention of recent time only have one international name even where there is a name that could be used, it seldom is, 
asking for a vacuum clearner will get you a vacumm cleaner in just about any shop on earth

i stream the formula one races from around the globe and am often suprised how easy it is to follow the commentary 

the Chinese phrase for pit stop,  is pit stop

the Uzbekistan for over take is over take, 

the Malaysian for red flag is red flag

its only the french that wont cooperate,


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 26, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Anyone else notice the OP never responded back since the first post? Yet there have been 4 pages of responses.


That sounds about right.  What's the topic now?  Did the conversation stay on track? lol


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 26, 2021)

jobo said:


> as a paying customer, you really should have the moral right to be instructed in the language of the country the instruction is taking place, going to japan and insisting on english may be pushing it to far, but if they have the capacity to provided an english translation they really should
> 
> when my instructor uses japanese, i look at him blankly till he provides it in english, if he didnt i would still be stood there at the end of class and would then go somewhere else that was more accommodating
> 
> i have no wish at all to learn a few words of japanese or any Japanese for that matter( i maxed out my useful requirment with karaoke) and unless someone can make a case that kicks are better if called something else, i cant see any good reason to go to the bother


I’m not sure I agree entirely, though I think I agree with the concept you have in mind. As a potential paying customer, you have the right to choose a place that teaches the way you prefer. I don’t think that translates to getting to make that request if you choose a place that does otherwise.


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## jobo (Jan 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I’m not sure I agree entirely, though I think I agree with the concept you have in mind. As a potential paying customer, you have the right to choose a place that teaches the way you prefer. I don’t think that translates to getting to make that request if you choose a place that does otherwise.


there doesnt seem any issue with making the request, is there ? ? i didnt actualy ask, i just look at him dumbfounded till he uses english, to be fair i do seem to have trained him now


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 26, 2021)

jobo said:


> there doesnt seem any issue with making the request, is there ? ? i didnt actualy ask, i just look at him dumbfounded till he uses english, to be fair i do seem to have trained him now


I wouldn’t go into a fabric shop and demand they carry shoes. If I want shoes, I’ll go to a shoe shop.

Now, asking for a definition or translation when you don’t know the terminology is fine. But at some point you need to learn it, because it’s the common usage for communication within the group you chose to join. It doesn’t matter whether the terminology in question is Japanese, Spanish, or English. Would you stare dumbly at a boxing coach until he calls a hook something else, just to assert yourself?


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2021)

jobo said:


> computer are some what different, everyone in the world calls them computers,  most invention of recent time only have one international name even where there is a name that could be used, it seldom is,
> asking for a vacuum clearner will get you a vacumm cleaner in just about any shop on earth
> 
> i stream the formula one races from around the globe and am often suprised how easy it is to follow the commentary
> ...



We had a coach that was fresh of the boat who asked for the English translation of Triangle.


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## jobo (Jan 27, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I wouldn’t go into a fabric shop and demand they carry shoes. If I want shoes, I’ll go to a shoe shop.
> 
> Now, asking for a definition or translation when you don’t know the terminology is fine. But at some point you need to learn it, because it’s the common usage for communication within the group you chose to join. It doesn’t matter whether the terminology in question is Japanese, Spanish, or English. Would you stare dumbly at a boxing coach until he calls a hook something else, just to assert yourself?


thats not the same at all, i would however insist  they sold me shoes  usibg English,  rather than me having to learn urdu

and clearly i didnt need to learn it, 

i have an ongo issue at the chess club were they insist i record my moves using chess languidge,  im not doing that either


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 27, 2021)

jobo said:


> thats not the same at all, i would however insist  they sold me shoes  usibg English,  rather than me having to learn urdu
> 
> and clearly i didnt need to learn it,
> 
> i have an ongo issue at the chess club were they insist i record my moves using chess languidge,  im not doing that either


IMO, it's exactly the same thing. You don't like the terms they use, so you're demanding they use others, rather than being bothered to learn theirs. I'm not sure why you train there if you don't like their approach.


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## jobo (Jan 27, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> IMO, it's exactly the same thing. You don't like the terms they use, so you're demanding they use others, rather than being bothered to learn theirs. I'm not sure why you train there if you don't like their approach.


well no, it isnt that i dont like the terms, its that i dont understand the terms and have no intention of teaching myself either Japanese urdu or chess notation, unless soneone can give me an advantageous reason why i should

if im paying for a service,  that service should be conducted in a languidge i understand, i dont have to learn turkish to order a meal in a turkish restaurant,  they would go bust if they tried it


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## BrendanF (Jan 27, 2021)

jobo said:


> well no, it isnt that i dont like the terms, its that i dont understand the terms and have no intention of teaching myself either Japanese urdu or chess notation, unless soneone can give me an advantageous reason why i should
> 
> if im paying for a service,  that service should be conducted in a languidge i understand, i dont have to learn turkish to order a meal in a turkish restaurant,  they would go bust if they tried it



Communication exists because we are not alone.  The 'advantageous reason you should' is so you are able to participate in activities with others.

We are not discussing purchasing a meal, we are discussing learning something from another person.  A more accurate analogy would be you purchasing guitar lessons and refusing to learn to read music.  You'd go bust if you tried.


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## jobo (Jan 27, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> Communication exists because we are not alone.  The 'advantageous reason you should' is so you are able to participate in activities with others.
> 
> We are not discussing purchasing a meal, we are discussing learning something from another person.  A more accurate analogy would be you purchasing guitar lessons and refusing to learn to read music.  You'd go bust if you tried.


and all the others speak english even the few who are not, so its no bar to comunication, in fact some have thanked me as they found it confusing as well and those who know the japanese terms can still go around  being smug and feeling superior , so its win win

nb i also took guitar lession with out learning to read music, that didnt seem a problem either


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## BrendanF (Jan 27, 2021)

jobo said:


> and all the others speak english even the few who are not, so its no bar to comunication, in fact some have thanked me as they found it confusing as well and those who know the japanese terms can still go around  being smug and feeling superior , so its win win
> 
> nb i also took guitar lession with out learning to read music, that didnt seem a problem either



So if I handed you a piece of sheet music - you know, the language musicians communicate through - you'd have no problem playing that on the guitar?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> well no, it isnt that i dont like the terms, its that i dont understand the terms and have no intention of teaching myself either Japanese urdu or chess notation, unless soneone can give me an advantageous reason why i should
> 
> if im paying for a service,  that service should be conducted in a languidge i understand, i dont have to learn turkish to order a meal in a turkish restaurant,  they would go bust if they tried it


So, you don't like the terms. If you didn't like "hook", you'd demand a different word. Got it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> nb i also took guitar lession with out learning to read music, that didnt seem a problem either


I'll bet you had to learn some new terminology, though, didn't you?


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## jobo (Jan 28, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I'll bet you had to learn some new terminology, though, didn't you?


yes in english, g being an english letter and id already got the hang of that when i was 5
im strugling to think if any new terminology  required


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> yes in english, g being an english letter and id already got the hang of that when i was 5
> im strugling to think if any new terminology  required


You already knew what the parts of the guitar were (fret, bridge, etc.), what a capo was, and so forth? You didn't learn the names of any picking patterns?


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## jobo (Jan 28, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> You already knew what the parts of the guitar were (fret, bridge, etc.), what a capo was, and so forth? You didn't learn the names of any picking patterns?


yes most of thise fall under general knowledge,  string, tune strum even syncopated,

no i learn cords in English,  g,f,e  etc


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## jobo (Jan 28, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> So if I handed you a piece of sheet music - you know, the language musicians communicate through - you'd have no problem playing that on the guitar?


if i was handed a peice of paper with the cords writen on  i could with a few minets of practice play that so it ws both pleasant to the ear and recognisable as any particular popular tune, if it was classical guitar music id have to give it back, if it was something id never heard they would need to play it for me first

you can play most things with 4 cords and just about everything with 7, you cant of course make an acustic gutar sound like an electric guitar,  so its always different, but hopefully recognisable as the tune your attempting

im better than bob Dylan,  and it didnt seem to hold him back, in fact i stand up quite well against a lot of " musicians " if they are playing unplugged


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> yes most of thise fall under general knowledge,  string, tune strum even syncopated,
> 
> no i learn cords in English,  g,f,e  etc


You didn't actually address my question, but I think you answered it with "most".


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## jobo (Jan 28, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> You didn't actually address my question, but I think you answered it with "most".


ive already said, if there was new terminolgy it doesnt come to mind, it would be inacurate of me to state non, when that isnt an absolute truth that i cant verify.

to the best of my recall, there was no new termonolgy required to play american pie or any other the other pop clasics that i learnt, that isnt in most peoples, certainly mine existing lexicography, 

i supose if someone managed to reach adult hood with out knowing what a fret was, there may some learning required


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> ive already said, if there was new terminolgy it doesnt come to mind, it would be inacurate of me to state non, when that isnt an absolute truth that i cant verify.
> 
> to the best of my recall, there was no new termonolgy required to play american pie or any other the other pop clasics that i learnt, that isnt in most peoples, certainly mine existing lexicography,
> 
> i supose if someone managed to reach adult hood with out knowing what a fret was, there may some learning required


That you already knew the specialized terms isn’t the issue, really. They are still specialized terms. Some became part of the English language, but didn’t start there.


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## jobo (Jan 28, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> That you already knew the specialized terms isn’t the issue, really. They are still specialized terms. Some became part of the English language, but didn’t start there.


hang on are you say the term " fret" wasnt part of the english language to start off with ?

so when exactly did it get an entry in the english dictionary and where did it start.

you do know its called a fret but of its similarity to fret work?, i suspect the word came into use before it was applied to guitars and not the otherway round


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## BrendanF (Jan 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> if i was handed a peice of paper with the cords writen on  i could with a few minets of practice play that so it ws both pleasant to the ear and recognisable as any particular popular tune, if it was classical guitar music id have to give it back, if it was something id never heard they would need to play it for me first
> 
> you can play most things with 4 cords and just about everything with 7, you cant of course make an acustic gutar sound like an electric guitar,  so its always different, but hopefully recognisable as the tune your attempting
> 
> im better than bob Dylan,  and it didnt seem to hold him back, in fact i stand up quite well against a lot of " musicians " if they are playing unplugged



So.. if I'm understanding you correctly, the answer is no; you would need someone to read and translate the music into something you could understand.  I guess you could call that 'no problem' if you want.


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## jobo (Jan 28, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> So.. if I'm understanding you correctly, the answer is no; you would need someone to read and translate the music into something you could understand.  I guess you could call that 'no problem' if you want.


but someone has to translate the music in to writen music in the first place, so everyone needs a translation unless they are Mozart ,


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## BrendanF (Jan 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> but someone has to translate the music in to writen music in the first place, so everyone needs a translation unless they are Mozart ,



No, there is no translation.  We have a language for music, you just haven't learned it.


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## jobo (Jan 28, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> No, there is no translation.  We have a language for music, you just haven't learned it.


no the music is translated in to writen form, how do you think it gets there,?

its intrinsically  no different to translating it into 1s and 0s, it isnt the music just a way of denoting it


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## BrendanF (Jan 28, 2021)

Yes.  My point being we have a language for that.  You don't know it.


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## jobo (Jan 28, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> Yes.  My point being we have a language for that.  You don't know it.


its not a language, any more than binary is a language


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> its not a language, any more than binary is a language



Binary is a language. So is C. So is musical notation. So is Italian. So is Swahili. That you don't understand them is irrelevant.


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## jobo (Jan 28, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Binary is a language. So is C. So is musical notation. So is Italian. So is Swahili. That you don't understand them is irrelevant.


binary is not a language,  just saying it is doesnt make it so, C is a language, music notation is not, Italian  is, swahili is not

the swahili are a people, their language is Kiswahili,


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> hang on are you say the term " fret" wasnt part of the english language to start off with ?
> 
> so when exactly did it get an entry in the english dictionary and where did it start.
> 
> you do know its called a fret but of its similarity to fret work?, i suspect the word came into use before it was applied to guitars and not the otherway round


Interestingly misleading post. I never said that.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> binary is not a language,  just saying it is doesnt make it so, C is a language, music notation is not, Italian  is, swahili is not
> 
> the swahili are a people, their language is Kiswahili,


What definition of language are you using that doesn't include binary?


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## BrendanF (Jan 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> its not a language, any more than binary is a language



Semantics; it is the method by which musicians communicate music to each other in written form.  Your attitude seems to be "I don't need to bother".  Which is fine, that's on you - but my point is simply that you are denying yourself the learning experience, and by definition therefore speaking from a position of ignorance.  Seems a shame to revel in apathy and ignorance to me, but YMMV.

And to reiterate; my initial point was in response to the question 'why bother?'.  And my answer remains the obvious one - if YOU want to learn something from someone else, you don't in any way have the 'moral right' to demand they teach you, in any manner.


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## jobo (Jan 28, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> What definition of language are you using that doesn't include binary?


the same one that doesnt include having one tin of beans


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> the same one that doesnt include having one tin of beans


Super helpful. Good luck with your discussion.


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## jobo (Jan 28, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> Semantics; it is the method by which musicians communicate music to each other in written form.  Your attitude seems to be "I don't need to bother".  Which is fine, that's on you - but my point is simply that you are denying yourself the learning experience, and by definition therefore speaking from a position of ignorance.  Seems a shame to revel in apathy and ignorance to me, but YMMV.
> 
> And to reiterate; my initial point was in response to the question 'why bother?'.  And my answer remains the obvious one - if YOU want to learn something from someone else, you don't in any way have the 'moral right' to demand they teach you, in any manner.


but it doesnt communicate music, does it ?


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## jobo (Jan 28, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Super helpful. Good luck with your discussion.


dont like that one, how about when the sun comes up, is that a language,  or i turn my phone on is that a language?


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## jobo (Jan 28, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Interestingly misleading post. I never said that.


yes you did, you said it wasnt part of the english language till after it was a technical term, which in its own right is a daft thing to say


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## jobo (Jan 28, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> That you already knew the specialized terms isn’t the issue, really. They are still specialized terms. Some became part of the English language, but didn’t start there.


here it is

it didnt start as part of the english language ???????


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## BrendanF (Jan 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> but it doesnt communicate music, does it ?



What does that matter?  It 'can be used as a record of, a guide to, or a means to perform, a *song* or piece of *music*. *Sheet music* enables instrumental performers who are able to read *music* notation (a pianist, orchestral instrument players, a jazz band, etc.) or singers to perform a *song* or piece.'

It is a record, guide or a means to performance.. which you lack.  Congrats on sticking up for yourself and not learning something.  I prefer my approach, and will leave you to your ignorance.


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## dvcochran (Jan 28, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> What does that matter?  It 'can be used as a record of, a guide to, or a means to perform, a *song* or piece of *music*. *Sheet music* enables instrumental performers who are able to read *music* notation (a pianist, orchestral instrument players, a jazz band, etc.) or singers to perform a *song* or piece.'
> 
> It is a record, guide or a means to performance.. which you lack.  Congrats on sticking up for yourself and not learning something.  I prefer my approach, and will leave you to your ignorance.


Brendan, I just have to tell you that you will have to 'learn' how to take Jobo just like the rest of us have. 
He is sort of like a unwound clock, he will be right every so often.


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## BrendanF (Jan 28, 2021)

Oh rest assured I was lurking for years before I ever posted here.. I'm familiar.  In fact I'm very impressed by his wordplay on this thread.  And he has made his position perfectly clear.  My thanks for the qualification though!


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## jobo (Jan 29, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> What does that matter?  It 'can be used as a record of, a guide to, or a means to perform, a *song* or piece of *music*. *Sheet music* enables instrumental performers who are able to read *music* notation (a pianist, orchestral instrument players, a jazz band, etc.) or singers to perform a *song* or piece.'
> 
> It is a record, guide or a means to performance.. which you lack.  Congrats on sticking up for yourself and not learning something.  I prefer my approach, and will leave you to your ignorance.


well congrats,  you finally bothered to look up tge defintion and it dosnt say its a language,  does it?

so its a record guide or means of performance, but its not the only record, guide or means of performance, so im not lacking any of those, i just use a different record guide or means of performance

what i use is a musical recording, which is also a record, guide or means of performance, in many ways a better  one

sheet music had a mass market before the invention of the gramophone,  i suspect there may be a connection between those two


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## drop bear (Jan 29, 2021)

jobo said:


> well congrats,  you finally bothered to look up tge defintion and it dosnt say its a language,  does it?
> 
> so its a record guide or means of performance, but its not the only record, guide or means of performance, so im not lacking any of those, i just use a different record guide or means of performance
> 
> ...



There is a difference between being able to do something and being able to do something well. 

Reading music means you are more versatile in being able to play an instrument. It opens you up to more opportunities to play and essentially gives you more depth. 

But this is a different subject what you want to achieve. And you are confusing the two. 

Saying methods of learning music or training in martial arts do not have validity because you don't want to to be very good at those subjects isn't really accurate because your personal investment in a subject doesn't change the subject. It just changes you.


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## jobo (Jan 29, 2021)

drop bear said:


> There is a difference between being able to do something and being able to do something well.
> 
> Reading music means you are more versatile in being able to play an instrument. It opens you up to more opportunities to play and essentially gives you more depth.
> 
> ...


it doesnt make any differance at all to how well you can play, its only really makes any difference  if someone requests a tune youve never heard and they happen to have the sheet music that they carry around just incase they meet a guitarist who never heard of it, ive never seem that happen,they usually want to hum it to you

but as i only play things ive practiced, ussially be bob dylan requesting ode to joy wont  get them any joy anyway, im not a jukebox

nb i can play ode to joy, i just wouldnt on principle


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## drop bear (Jan 29, 2021)

jobo said:


> it doesnt make any differance at all to how well you can play, its only really makes any difference  if someone requests a tune youve never heard and they happen to have the sheet music that they carry around just incase they meet a guitarist who never heard of it, ive never seem that happen,they usually want to hum it to you
> 
> but as i only play things ive practiced, ussially be bob dylan requesting ode to joy wont  get them any joy anyway, im not a jukebox
> 
> nb i can play ode to joy, i just wouldnt on principle



It makes a difference to how you play if you are trying to read sheet music. 

Now if that doesn't matter to you. That doesn't change the dynamics.


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## jobo (Jan 29, 2021)

drop bear said:


> It makes a difference to how you play if you are trying to read sheet music.
> 
> Now if that doesn't matter to you. That doesn't change the dynamics.


well it can make you worse, i play with my eyes shut, it doesnt however make you better, your really obliged to have learnt it before you play it to an audience

a lot of very sucessfull and accomplished " perfomers cant read music

the beatles for instance, they( pm( were quoted as saying they couldnt see the point if it, so they didnt bother, thats good enough for me, if we are doing appeals to aurthorit.

back in the late 70s i did three gigs playing base in a punk band, we went down quite well to a few hundred paying spectator's

before creative differeances, meant i left the band, they thought i should know more than three cords and should occasionally play them in a,different order  (and should turn up to band practice), i thought that was over kill to be honest and having more than a passing resemblance to joey romone, was more than enought to make up for my musical limitations , fortunately  they didnt go on to fame and fortune with out me


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 29, 2021)

jobo said:


> yes you did, you said it wasnt part of the english language till after it was a technical term, which in its own right is a daft thing to say


Maybe go back and actually read the posts. You've made at least two really significant mistakes in that post.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 29, 2021)

jobo said:


> here it is
> 
> it didnt start as part of the english language ???????


Funny, I don't see the word you're asserting I said that about. Could you bold it for me in my statement?


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## jobo (Jan 29, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Maybe go back and actually read the posts. You've made at least two really significant mistakes in that post.


ive read it twice now and thats two more than i normaly devote to you ramblings,


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 29, 2021)

jobo said:


> ive read it twice now and thats two more than i normaly devote to you ramblings,


Then you might need to re-read your own posts. There's a serious disconnect between what you quoted and what you claimed.

Or, just maybe, you made a claim you know isn't accurate, and are trying to deflect by quoting something and saying, "See? There it is!" Which you do kind of a lot when you know you've lost your point.


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## jobo (Jan 29, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Then you might need to re-read your own posts. There's a serious disconnect between what you quoted and what you claimed.
> 
> Or, just maybe, you made a claim you know isn't accurate, and are trying to deflect by quoting something and saying, "See? There it is!" Which you do kind of a lot when you know you've lost your point.


ive seldom lost a point and even less frequently know it, it just old news, i cant be bothered being sucked into your self justification rant, you know what you said was silly, if you want to bluster your way out , im good with that, no need to fret


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 30, 2021)

jobo said:


> ive seldom lost a point and even less frequently know it, it just old news, i cant be bothered being sucked into your self justification rant, you know what you said was silly, if you want to bluster your way out , im good with that, no need to fret


That'd be less funny if you were actually managing to argue against what I actually said.


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## Razznik (Feb 16, 2021)

What the heck has this discussion turned into? From Fake dojos to music sheets to people dissing jobo?


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 16, 2021)

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> What the heck has this discussion turned into? From Fake dojos to music sheets to people dissing jobo?


 lol  this sounds about normal.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 16, 2021)

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> What the heck has this discussion turned into? From Fake dojos to music sheets to people dissing jobo?


That's going to be most threads that go past 5 or so pages. People can't concentrate on the topic for more than that, it seems.


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## Cynik75 (Feb 16, 2021)

Wait till Rule34...


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## Razznik (Feb 17, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Wait till Rule34...


What is Rule 34?


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## Cynik75 (Feb 17, 2021)

Use the google, Luke.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Use the google, Luke.


I can’t be bothered.


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## MFC__2020 (Feb 18, 2021)

Krav Maga is real.  
Muay Thai is real.

    It depends on your personality because from the website it looks like a private security/government worker type of gym.

If you're looking to roll with people I would not choose this club because they don't appear to offer BJJ.

If you are looking for self defense the 2 arts the website site says the gym combines, in my opinion would work well together.
I've never done either but have a rough understanding of their framework.


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## dvcochran (Feb 18, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Wait till Rule34...


I had never heard of it but must say that is just weird.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 19, 2021)

Good luck for the Muay thai one, apparntly there is a trend to just call kickboxing that now days which muddles things.  thats even less regulated than krav maga and look what happened Krav.  (at least there are two main international orginsiations that regulate krav maga that are respectable, i dont think Muay Thai has the same presence)

If its good kickboxing its good kickboxing though.


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