# karate and self defense?



## drummingman (Nov 12, 2006)

i keep coming across things that say that karete is not good for self defense.i even saw someone on this board say they loved karate but that its not that good for self defense.so what gives? is karate good for real self defense or not? what styles of karate are good for self defense and what ones are not?
the styles in my area are american goju ryu and motobu ha shito ryu.are either one of these styles good for self defense in real fighting on the street and not just in the dojo?


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## exile (Nov 12, 2006)

drummingman said:


> i keep coming across things that say that karete is not good for self defense.i even saw someone on this board say they loved karate but that its not that good for self defense.so what gives? is karate good for real self defense or not? what styles of karate are good for self defense and what ones are not?
> the styles in my area are american goju ryu and motobu ha shito ryu.are either one of these styles good for self defense in real fighting on the street and not just in the dojo?



Drummingman, a ton of ink---and in this medium, bytes---have been spilled on this question. You should take a look at some of the threads having to do with kata, for example. Meanwhile, this is how I think the issue you raise should be framed:

First, there is a sport vs. combat dimension to a lot of MAs. Taekwando and karate in particular are striking arts which have developed a major ring-competition component over the past couple of decades, with TKD now an Olympic event, and sport karate importing into its own practice a lot of the flashy, and largely combat-impractical, high complex kicks from TKD. Regardless of the name of the MA, point-sparring in one or another version tends to put the premium on athletic difficulty and drive the technique-toolkit of the MA away from street-effectiveness to ring-effectiveness. I don't know just what you were looking at that was dissing karate's fighting effectivenss, but the same thing happens with TKD, and 100 times out of 100 the negativity is aimed at Olympic-sparring style TKD, because that's almost all that people see. So let's start by excluding sport karate from the question, because if you include it, the answer will be unfairly skewed towards the negative, which I think is absolutely the _wrong_ answer.

On the other hand, ask yourself where karate came from. The founders of the modern MA of karate, Matsumura, Anko Itsosu and several others, were  bodyguards of the King of Okinawa and served him in LEO capacities as well. They were forbiddedn by the Satsuma overlords of Okinawa to own bladed weapons or firearms; all they had were their hands, elows, knees and feet. How combat-ineffective do you think the empty-handed MA these guys helped codify from native Okinawan and Chinese fighting systems could be, if that's what the king's bodyguards were using to protect his life and carry out law enforcement there?

So that means you have to look at the `record' that these guys left of their art---the boiled-down essence of the fighting systems that were their bread-and-butter---i.e., the kata, and see just what their combat potential is. And to start with, you need some guidance, because the effective applications of the kata movements had long been concealed in training, and after the Satsuma overlordship ended, Itosu, trying to get karate into the Okinawan school system, repackaged some of the kata as the `core curriculum' for school use and disguised the nastiest applications as simple punch-block-kick sequences---explicitly warning adults, however, that that's what he was doing, and that to do real karate they were going to have to recover the most effective bunkai, the real combat applications, themselves. The terms `block' and `chamber' are labels for _movement_, they are not, by and large, accurated descriptions of the intended _moves_---big difference there!

So how do you find out about decoding the kata and seeing just how effective the techiques they conceal are (or can be, if you train them right?) I'd start with Iain Abernethy's book _Bunkai-Jutsu: the Practical Application of Karate Kata_, and pay particular attention to his last chapter, on how to train the fighting techniques ---which cover all combat ranges and show the locks, throws, sweeps and other grappling moves in the art and how these interact to set up very damaging strikes to finish off an assailant---and ways of combining them in a real `situation'. What Abernethy stresses here is crucial: you have to train karate techniques in a particular way, that lets you simulate the unpredictable and violent nature of real fights (as vs. rule-governed contests), and his final chapter goes into detail on how he does this at his dojo and how training partners can do the same thing. Also take a look at Lawrence Kane and Kris Wilder's _The Way of Kata_, and anything by Javier Martinez or Patrick McCarthy on applications of kata-based techniques.

These guys have done a huge amount of study and practical expermentation on the information about hard combat uses incorporated in the kata, and you really owe it to yourself to look at their very impressive results if you want to see the full range of evidence that we now, thanks to their work, have on that question. But you also have to recognize that if you want to use karate---or TKD, or kenpo, or wing chun, or.....---for real fighting, should that become necessary, you have to study the art in a school which encourages self-defense apps primarily, and you have to train for real, unpleasant, violent conflict. It's not just what you know, but how you train it, that determines effectiveness. If you do go that route, though, karate can be a devastating system.


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## drummingman (Nov 12, 2006)

thanks a lot exile for that grat post.
yeah i don't care about point fighting and things like that.to me all that matters when it comes to studying a martial art is real world slef defense.
can you maybe go into some of the things that you talked about when it comes to putting the real combat back into the kata and how some of that stuff plays out?


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## twendkata71 (Nov 12, 2006)

*The problem you run into is that people do not spend enough time training in karate do to really develop their skills. Also self defense is not the only thing that karate training is about. It is about defeating your own weaknesses, developing your mental and physical strength.  I can see were people would see karate as ineffective, the sport aspect and commercial schools are so prevelant that it is mostly what the public sees.  One of the big things that has ruined karate is totally commercial karate. They have watered the karate down to make it a more appealing commodity. People want to be pampered, they want to learn it all now, but they don't want it to be the rough,hard core training of the original karate teachers. *
*When I was training in Shorin ryu, I asked my sensei what to do if my opponent tangled up my arms, he said" bite his nose off". I asked him is that part of karate. He said" all parts of the body are used in karate,even your teeth". So, yes, karate is effective for self defense. You just have to find the right school. There are a lot of Mcdojo's out there and extreme sport schools, sport karate/taekwondo schools,etc. that would be what you would want to avoid.  And yes there are schools out there that do both, sport karate competition and real self defense karate do.*
* Urban goju ryu(USA Goju) are known for their hard nosed, self defense karate.  I cannot speak for the Motobu ha Shito ryu people. But, if they are anything like their name sake Motobu, he was a hardcore streetfighting karate guy, that in his early days, tested all of his techniques on the street.*
*The Shito ryu that I have experience(Shukokai kempo) is very rough and street tactic oriented.*


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## searcher (Nov 12, 2006)

From my own personal experience I have a hypothesis.   The karate-ka that are not good at self-defense are the ones that get their BB and then stop training.   Then they procede to go around bullying and bragging that they are a BB in karate.   They then procede to get the crap kicked out of them and it gives us a bad reputation.   You don't know the times I have beat the crap out of guys that have kicked the crap out of one of these braggarts.


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## exile (Nov 12, 2006)

Hi again Drummigman---the things Twedkata talks about here are just what I was getting at. 



twendkata71 said:


> The problem you run into is that people do not spend enough time training in karate do to really develop their skills. Also self defense is not the only thing that karate training is about. It is about defeating your own weaknesses, developing your mental and physical strength.  I can see were people would see karate as ineffective, the sport aspect and commercial schools are so prevelant that it is mostly what the public sees.  One of the big things that has ruined karate is totally commercial karate. They have watered the karate down to make it a more appealing commodity. People want to be pampered, they want to learn it all now, but they don't want it to be the rough,hard core training of the original karate teachers.



This is along the same lines that I was getting at when I referred to the training methods that people like Iaian Abernethy, Lawrence Kane or Geoff Thomspson---karateka whose `day jobs' have included gigs as bouncers or crowd control coordinators and security operatives---advocate in their writings. Remember, always, that karate wasn't a luxury or a hobby for the people who created it and their students. They were weaponless subjects of a harsh occupying force, who had to make every bit of their training count to the maximum. The first generation of Koreans exposed to Japanese karate lived in a dangerous, crime-ridden society, according to what I've read about that period, where poverty, going hand-in-hand with a brutal Japanese occupation, made life fairly cheap---and it was if anything even worse just after the war; the demand for MA training was based on totally practical considerations of day-to-day survival. People were willing to get knocked about, bruised and bloodied in order to learn effective fighting skills, and they were willing to toughen themselves up---via strength training and body conditioning---to get themselves in shape to both admister and withstand damaging strikes. You have to see that as the context in which karate developed and spread.



twendkata71 said:


> When I was training in Shorin ryu, I asked my sensei what to do if my opponent tangled up my arms, he said" bite his nose off". I asked him is that part of karate. He said" all parts of the body are used in karate,even your teeth". So, yes, karate is effective for self defense. You just have to find the right school. There are a lot of Mcdojo's out there and extreme sport schools, sport karate/taekwondo schools,etc. that would be what you would want to avoid.  And yes there are schools out there that do both, sport karate competition and real self defense karate do.



Again, this is just my point---it's _how_ karate is taught and trained that makes it grimly effective (or not) at stopping an assailant cold. Look at it this way: karate has punches, palm heel strikes, knife hand strikes, elbow strikes at many angle, hard mid- and low-height kicks, locks, chokes, sweeps, neck twists, strikes to the eyes... how could it _not_ be effective??? Only one way: if its combat toolkit were largely ignored, or failed to be taught in a way which had these separate pieces work together and build logically and inevitably to a disabling strike on a vital part of your attacker's body. Unfortunately, as Twendkata is pointing out, there are plenty of commerical schools which do fail to teach karate properly along just these lines.



twendkata71 said:


> Urban goju ryu(USA Goju) are known for their hard nosed, self defense karate.  I cannot speak for the Motobu ha Shito ryu people. But, if they are anything like their name sake Motobu, he was a hardcore streetfighting karate guy, that in his early days, tested all of his techniques on the street.
> 
> The Shito ryu that I have experience(Shukokai kempo) is very rough and street tactic oriented.



So look, here's what I'd do if I were you, Drummingman: on the one hand, 

(i) read some of that stuff I mentioned so you can see in depth just what `combat applications of kata moves' actually means in practice, and 

(ii) on the other hand, visit a few dojos, talk to the instructional staff there, and try to keep your ears open for the hints that will tell you which way the school goes---in the direction that Twendkata points out for the various Okinawan schools he mentions which emphasize fighting skills and applications, or in the other direction---the commercial/sport direction that really won't help you if you have to defend yourself.

Give these a whirl and you won't go wrong!


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## Robert Lee (Nov 12, 2006)

Karate is no good. It is the person using what they know that makes it good. with that said. Any self defence art That a person takes the time to train hard push there limits understand What they can do That person will get good at it. The ones that just get that 2 to 3 hours in a week will see slow improvement And never really get it. You have to not only train hard in class but should train at some point every day if you want to get good.


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## WMKS Shogun (Nov 13, 2006)

eXile, 
    If I had to guess, I would say that you have read the book Shotokan's Secret by Bruce Clayton (based on your understanding of the history). Though I agree that looking into books that go into the meanings of the katas adds a ton of depth to karate (and taekwon-do). There are plenty of self defense applications to be discovered and practiced in the katas. Grabs, throws, locks, breaks, escapes, and chokes can all be found and applied for self defense if a student cares to look hard enough.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 13, 2006)

I think the simple answer is that any and every martial art, if done well, is very useful for self defense.

But the flip side is also true: any and every martial art, if done poorly, is useless for self defense.

It is only a tool.  It is up to you to learn and train to use that tool well.


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## exile (Nov 13, 2006)

WMKS Shogun said:


> eXile,
> If I had to guess, I would say that you have read the book Shotokan's Secret by Bruce Clayton (based on your understanding of the history). Though I agree that looking into books that go into the meanings of the katas adds a ton of depth to karate (and taekwon-do). There are plenty of self defense applications to be discovered and practiced in the katas. Grabs, throws, locks, breaks, escapes, and chokes can all be found and applied for self defense if a student cares to look hard enough.



Hi David, yes, I _have_ read Clayton's book (though I remain a bit skeptical about many of his inferences---as Danjo has alread pointed out on another thread a while back, Clayton seems to be, unwittingly, retrofitting modern Shotokan's very low stances to the royal Okinawan court context of a century and a half ago---a time when, according to the best independent evidence, the stances of the Okinawan karateka were much higher than they are now. This is a serious anachronism that makes much of his claims about specific features of Shotokan's origins a bit questionable). His account does jibe with others I've read in connection with the backgrounds of the various early karateka whose discoveries evolved into contemporary Shotokan---particularly Iain Abernethy's work---and I also find convincing Simon J. O'Neil's and Stuart Anslow's investigations of the connections between earlier Okinawan karate styles, Shotokan, and the wartime and Kwan-era Korean MAs that became Taekwando. Abernethy's work in particular documents in a very plausible and straightforward way the way striking and grappling components of karate are encoded in kata and can be  recovered from them using his rules for `reading' these patterns; similarly for O'Neil's work, which clearly is heavily influenced by Abernethy's. Kane and Wilder's book,  Martinez's book on the elements of Okinawan tuite that can be inferred from those styles of karate, and Patrick McCarthy's work all point in the same general direction. Taken together, that overall line of analysis seems to me to make good sense of aspects of kata which otherwise seem just baffling and, from the point of view of actual combat, rather pointless.

I've tried thinking through the way that style of analysis might make sense of the kichos and the Palgwe forms and have been struck by the usefulness of the results. Over time, I'm hoping to work out some scenarios using their methodology for all of the Palgwes---SJO'N's book on the WTF forms will be out next year, and Anslow's book on the ITF tuls has recently appeared, but it looks like no one is going to address the Palgwes, so if I want to see how those work using that framework of analysis, I've got to do them myself...


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## JasonASmith (Nov 13, 2006)

I'm on my second read-through of Clayton's book, and I must say that I do like some of his conclusions(even if they are a bit of a stretch in places)  His thoughts on the Tekki set are interesting.  I'm still of the mind, back on topic, that it's the practitioner of whatever system is being used at the given moment, not the system itself...So Karate is as effective as anything else, as long as it's done well...


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## exile (Nov 13, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> I'm on my second read-through of Clayton's book, and I must say that I do like some of his conclusions(even if they are a bit of a stretch in places)  His thoughts on the Tekki set are interesting.



Yes, I'm sure he has some of it at least right... the question is, just how much? Someone needs to revisit his data and interpretations and maybe shed some new light on what he's come up with.



JasonASmith said:


> I'm still of the mind, back on topic, that it's the practitioner of whatever system is being used at the given moment, not the system itself...So Karate is as effective as anything else, as long as it's done well...



Yes, exactly my thought as well.


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## drummingman (Nov 15, 2006)

i just found "the way of kata" and hope to buy it soon.


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## Brandon Fisher (Nov 15, 2006)

Karate is effective.  Its all in how it is applied, true that all parts of the body are used in karate and more people are not learning that because of the commericalization has Wend Sensei has pointed out.  When I created Seijitsu Shin Do I made a promise to myself that those that achieved higher rank would have a open mind to self defsne and understand that simple is best when it comes to the real thing.  Short sweet and effective is how I teach self defense and yet my karate is very hardcore when used at its full potential however I don't show it right away in the training its gradule development.  People tell me all the time when I hit them they feel more pressure in the center of their body and their back then where I hit them.  This is karate, the ability to have very powerful pentrating technique that ulitmately can cause a lot of damage.  True traditional karate is still effective when used correctly.  But takes many years to develop it and most people won't take the time.  Especially in the western world.


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## exile (Nov 16, 2006)

drummingman said:


> i just found "the way of kata" and hope to buy it soon.



It's a good read, drummingman, full of sharp ideas on realistic applications of kata. But the Abernethy books really are the classics of that approach. If you can get your hands on a copy of _Bunkai Jutsu_, start it and put everything else on hold till you finish it. Abernethy is not just a very experienced karateka and gifted analyst---his book is full of revelations of the kind that make you want to slap your forehead and ask yourself in exasperation, `why didn't I see that before???'---but he's a graceful writer whose way of presenting his discoveries and hypotheses make it genuinely hard to put the book down. And he does the crucial things: he states his claims very specifically, so you know exactly what he means, and he presents evidence and arguments that really speak to the validity of those claims. It's not that easy to find that level of discussion in the MA literature, unfortunately...


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## drummingman (Nov 16, 2006)

hi exile.i looked for the abernethy book tonight at my local boarders,they did not have it.i even tried to order it,again no luck as it was not even on file.i guess i will have to get it on line.
i did notice that on the back of the way of kata there is a quote by abernethy as to how good that book is.just thought i would let you know that just in case you did not know.i know that you like the book as well,and considering how good you say the abernethy"s book is that makes me also look forward to reading the way of kata.


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## exile (Nov 16, 2006)

drummingman said:


> hi exile.i looked for the abernethy book tonight at my local boarders,they did not have it.i even tried to order it,again no luck as it was not even on file.i guess i will have to get it on line.



Hi dm---yes, that was how I wound up getting IA's book. There's apparently a significant demand for it---Amazon is sometimes back-ordered several weeks for it---but oddly enough, it isn't in bookstores that much.



drummingman said:


> i did notice that on the back of the way of kata there is a quote by abernethy as to how good that book is.just thought i would let you know that just in case you did not know.i know that you like the book as well,and considering how good you say the abernethy"s book is that makes me also look forward to reading the way of kata.



Oh yes, I know that IA is a big fan of theirs, I've seen his quote on the back, and if you look up the Amazon.com reviews of their book, he's got a nice commentary there. And they do have some _very_ interesting interpretations that are worth thinking about (Okinawan karate styles are their base, particularly Goju ryu, though everything they do is generally applicable to other striking art pattern interpretation). There's a kind of difference in their approach from IA, though---he tends not look for `hidden moves so much'---moves that are interpolated between the overt movements of the kata. There's some reason to think that such moves really were intended to be understood as a concealed part of the kata by their creators---part of the common understanding of fighting methods at the time, so you didn't necessarily have to always put them in---but IA is more conservative in his take, going more literally by just what the kata themselves show. I _don't_ think that Kane & Wilder overuse their appeal to hidden moves, but it's something not all kata analysts do. Still, it is definitely worth thinking about!


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## OneKickWonder (Dec 8, 2006)

My personal opinion, as much as it is worth, is that any martial art is effective for self defense. BUT ONLY TO A CERTAIN EXTENT. If you learned TKD in junior high and never applied it after that and you get attacked when you are 25 you might remember. In the beginning when learning an art, as Brandon Fisher said about his, you learn things slowly and not necessarily to the full potential. If techniques, forms, katas, and even the basics are not practiced on a regular basis, then they will be lost and therefore useless for self defense. But if you practice your art, and refine your body to it and it to your body, you will always stand a better chance of defending yourself. Also most of the time when talking of self defense it is assumed the other person has little or no knowledge of MAs. If they do, then it is just a matter of what they know and what you know and how you apply it to the situation. These are all the ramblings of my mind and not necessarily fact but they have been the subject between me, my instructor, and several other seniors in my school.


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## KageMusha (Jan 2, 2007)

searcher said:


> From my own personal experience I have a hypothesis. The karate-ka that are not good at self-defense are the ones that get their BB and then stop training. Then they procede to go around bullying and bragging that they are a BB in karate. They then procede to get the crap kicked out of them and it gives us a bad reputation. You don't know the times I have beat the crap out of guys that have kicked the crap out of one of these braggarts.




I have seen that several times.  I look at it this way:  regardless of your art, you are spending time learning distance, timeing, strikeing, and overall fighting.  If you truly devote yourself to learning ANY kind of fighting, then fight someone who hasn't, you have a much better chance.  

The only thing I think hurts a lot of people is closed mindedness.  Some people dedicate themselves to one way of fighting.  I am not saying one style, I am saying one way.  For example:  Circular movment over linear.  All karate has at least a little of both.  But some people just train in the linear because they believe it is all that is needed.  But what about when you come across someone huge.... you need circular movment for that.  Some just use circular with the thought that they can't get hit now.  We all know that isn't the right answer either.  You need both.  Along with skills on standing your ground, and counter attacking, and so on and so on.....

I also like the fact that even the traditional karate schools are starting to import more ground fighting.  With the popularity of the UFC and MMA in general, it is more likely for someone to take you down since they see it on tv now.

20 years ago, people watched boxing.  So if a fight broke out, you went fist-a-cuffs.  Now they see grappleing, so that is what they do.


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## Iron Leopard (Jan 3, 2007)

well karate was developed for self defense and should still be that. TKD is mostly health and sport in the schools around me. MMA and groundfighting schools are good but they again focus too much on the sport aspect and ground fighting aspect and not the self defense or stand up fighting.

You need to know how to fight on the ground but you also want to avoid it at all costs if that is possible. most kempo schools weather american or chines/shaolin kempo are very self defense oriented from my experience.

You again can discuss this with your future instructor and find out if he covers all self defense applications.  If most of the training involves, high kicks, jumping kicks, endless acrobatic forms or finger strikes to the chest or other useless strikes. and point sparring or fighting with protective body gear then it's probably not self defense oriented.


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## KageMusha (Jan 3, 2007)

Iron Leopard just reminded me of something I wanted to ask, but kept forgetting to.  How many of you guys train at schools that don't use protective gear for sparring/kumite?  If you do use it, what do you use?  And I don't mean brand.  For those that don't use any, have there ever been any leagal problems within the school as far as someone getting hurt?  And, if you don't wear any, do the children who train there use it?  

I am asking in this threed instead of starting a new one because I am wondering what everyones opinon on useing/not useing it is as far as self-defense.  Is it better to not use it because you don't on the street, but now you have to pull punches a little (at least to the head and face), or is it better to use some so that you can feel the accual impact when you strike someone.  As you all know, hitting a moveing target whether you land it or they block it, can change your body posture much differantly than pulling your punch/kick.

Just curious.


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## exile (Jan 3, 2007)

KageMusha said:


> Iron Leopard just reminded me of something I wanted to ask, but kept forgetting to.  How many of you guys train at schools that don't use protective gear for sparring/kumite?  If you do use it, what do you use?  And I don't mean brand.  For those that don't use any, have there ever been any leagal problems within the school as far as someone getting hurt?  And, if you don't wear any, do the children who train there use it?



We don't use it. We train close-in techs with controlled delivery. Training under those conditions has been... well, character-building, I suppose: when you can't apply a tech full force, even though you have a nice opening and know that you could enforce compliance, it's very good for your soul to be able to force yourself to refrain from doing any of that!  



KageMusha said:


> I am asking in this threed instead of starting a new one because I am wondering what everyones opinon on useing/not useing it is as far as self-defense.  Is it better to not use it because you don't on the street, but now you have to pull punches a little (at least to the head and face), or is it better to use some so that you can feel the accual impact when you strike someone.  As you all know, hitting a moveing target whether you land it or they block it, can change your body posture much differantly than pulling your punch/kick.
> Just curious.



Good question! I think, if I had my druthers, I'd use a certain amount of protective gear and go full out, CQ apps of TKD techs (which, as we train them, are pretty close to ShotokanSong Moo Kwan was described by Ro Pyung Chik, its founder, as `Korean Shotokan' and that's how we train it.). 

What I try to do instead is swing a heavy bag and deliver various strikes to it at different points in the swing, and try to learn to adjust my response so I'm always in balance no matter which way the bag is moving, or how fast, when I strike it. It's not a true substitute, but it's a step in the right direction, in terms of the `moving target' problem you bring up.


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## Iron Leopard (Jan 3, 2007)

I always required it so that there were no injuries especially for children. remember if someone gets injured no matter how tough they say they are..a large percentage of the time they don't return to train with you.

And to clarify ..what I require is cups for the guys, caged headgear and mouth pieces and gloves with the fingers incased. I don't believe in chest protectors because not wearing them A. toughens you up and B. ensures that some self control is learned, which I feel is very important. I also don't require the shin pads. or shoes. 

at higher levels like brown or black especially there is kumite without any gear and almost always the combinations and techniques are practiced without any gear as well.


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## cstanley (Jan 3, 2007)

There sure are a lot of non-karate folks trying to talk knowledgably about karate. American kempo and its derivatives have absolutely nothing to do with Okinawan or Japanese karate.


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## KageMusha (Jan 3, 2007)

cstanley said:


> There sure are a lot of non-karate folks trying to talk knowledgably about karate. American kempo and its derivatives have absolutely nothing to do with Okinawan or Japanese karate.



Was their a point to that?  I thought this was a topic of karate and self defense.  Did I mis-read the threed title?

Anyways, Iron Leopard, I agree with you 100%.  I am curious about one thing though.  You have them use caged headgears, but no foot protection.  I would imagine kicking a metal cage would hurt a lot.  Or do you not use high kicks?


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## Iron Leopard (Jan 3, 2007)

KageMusha  they wear dojo shoes or bare feet if they want. I find it's a matter of control and conditioning for the kicker of not hurting their foot. Also its generally plastic caged gear...a little easier on the toes.  Open head gear is fine but from training and teaching there is always someone who is going to get smashed in the nose....always.


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## searcher (Jan 4, 2007)

The level of gear I require depends on the type of sparring we are doing.   If we are going heavier contact then we wear more gear, which is what we do most of the time.   Our gear varies from nothing but handwraps to as much as chest protectors, boxing gloves, boxing style head gear, elbow and knee pads.   As well as many variations in between.

The level of protective gear also depands on what the makeup of the class is.   If it is kids they always wear gear.   The 18-36 YO males often wear less.   

Remember that gear was not really designed to protect the one getting hit, but to protect the striker.   It allowed for the puncher to strike harder without sustaining a high level fo damage to their own body.


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## twendkata71 (Jan 4, 2007)

In the novice levels the students wear hand and foot pads during sparring in our schools. Many wear the cotton hand pands, some wear the foam dipped pads, the foam dipped pads don't last very long and are quite expensive. We do not wear chest protectors, that is unless some of the black belts are doing full contact. I find them to be uncomfortable. At advanced levels many times we don't wear pads. We are more used to contact and have better control over techniques. I have sparred with Kyokushinkai people and that is an experience that I enjoy, but takes longer to recover now that I am getting older.
Many schools wear all of the protective gear, I would imagine to keep their insurance costs down.


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## jtbdad (Jan 14, 2007)

I use to train in Judo with Gene Hershey.  Sensei Hershey was always fond of saying that the reason that Judo-ka (I don't know if he was actually using that term correctly or not) do well in physical confrontations is because usually after 6 months of training they are likely to be much better conditioned than anyone who would start a street brawl/ Bar fight etc.  I never went very far in Judo but he was right they train hard.  I believe that this is probably true for most Karate-ka.  If for no other reason the conditioning gives one an advantage.  Additionally Martial Artists learn to control their emotions, and develop significant body and environmental awareness.  Whether the actual techniques are appropriate for a specific situation or not does not negate these other advantages which derive from our training.


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## Em MacIntosh (May 30, 2007)

My problem with bunkai is that the opponent comes at you with a karate technique, not a street technique.  Kata is the core of karate, so you have to keep that in mind when doing your kata as if you were learning modern street applications for it.  Karate was designed to kill or be killed and is 100% for the street and a very effective form of self defense.  I'd go as far as to say it's more street oriented than boxing or wrestling, not necessarily more effective, but is more meant for life and death.  That's the kime (focus) and sanchin (attitude) you must posess while training.  It's the instructor, not the art.  How many other correct cliches can I throw in here?  The bottom line is that your skills will be the way you train them to be, mind and body.  Karate was designed to kill but not every move is lethal or meant to come to a lethal conlusion.  I've used karate to defend myself on more than one occasion and it has served me far better than I thought it would.  I was even able to stop short of serious, crippling injury and apply a "talk-some-sense-into-him-lock" rather than a finishing elbow.  You have to be very, VERY fast and I don't think a lot of dojos give a proper impression of just how fast you have to be.  Many of the practitioners are fast enough, but don't move as fast as they can or might not understand what's necessary in a street situation.  Let the muscle memory take car of itself, exploit the enemy's weaknesses and have the proper kime and sanchin and your karate will be effective for self defense.  Remember that effectiveness does not guarantee success and you have no time to "think" or choose what to do.  You have to do it.  Fast.  Make it count.


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## chinto (May 30, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> My problem with bunkai is that the opponent comes at you with a karate technique, not a street technique. Kata is the core of karate, so you have to keep that in mind when doing your kata as if you were learning modern street applications for it. Karate was designed to kill or be killed and is 100% for the street and a very effective form of self defense. I'd go as far as to say it's more street oriented than boxing or wrestling, not necessarily more effective, but is more meant for life and death. That's the kime (focus) and sanchin (attitude) you must posess while training. It's the instructor, not the art. How many other correct cliches can I throw in here? The bottom line is that your skills will be the way you train them to be, mind and body. Karate was designed to kill but not every move is lethal or meant to come to a lethal conlusion. I've used karate to defend myself on more than one occasion and it has served me far better than I thought it would. I was even able to stop short of serious, crippling injury and apply a "talk-some-sense-into-him-lock" rather than a finishing elbow. You have to be very, VERY fast and I don't think a lot of dojos give a proper impression of just how fast you have to be. Many of the practitioners are fast enough, but don't move as fast as they can or might not understand what's necessary in a street situation. Let the muscle memory take car of itself, exploit the enemy's weaknesses and have the proper kime and sanchin and your karate will be effective for self defense. Remember that effectiveness does not guarantee success and you have no time to "think" or choose what to do. You have to do it. Fast. Make it count.


 

I have to agree to a lot of that. I also have to say that it does depend on the dojo as to if the student is being trained in a way that they have an idea of how fast they must be on the street, and if they ever have street techniques like round house punches or hooks and such used in bunkai.  I am a student at a dojo that does teach mainly for self defence rather then sport and teaches a very traditional okinawan style.  so we practice liner and circuler techniques and their use in defence and offence. but there are people out there who are not tought that way. used properly and trained well and properly karate is very very effecient and effective for self defence.


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## Callandor (May 30, 2007)

Robert Lee said:


> Karate is no good. It is the person using what they know that makes it good. with that said. Any self defence art That a person takes the time to train hard push there limits understand What they can do That person will get good at it. The ones that just get that 2 to 3 hours in a week will see slow improvement And never really get it. You have to not only train hard in class but should train at some point every day if you want to get good.



Hello, Robert. I think it would be more correct to say that Karate, in itself, is good. It is up to the practitioner to tap it's full potential or to use it in an ineffective manner. Just my 2 centavos. Peace!


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## Em MacIntosh (May 31, 2007)

chinto said:


> I have to agree to a lot of that. I also have to say that it does depend on the dojo as to if the student is being trained in a way that they have an idea of how fast they must be on the street, and if they ever have street techniques like round house punches or hooks and such used in bunkai. I am a student at a dojo that does teach mainly for self defence rather then sport and teaches a very traditional okinawan style. so we practice liner and circuler techniques and their use in defence and offence. but there are people out there who are not tought that way. used properly and trained well and properly karate is very very effecient and effective for self defence.


 
You can't teach someone what it's going to be like on the street.  At best, you can teach them what it might be like.  Nothing compares.  Even being in a crisis situation or disaster where your life is in danger isn't the same.  When another sentient conciousness turns malevolent and violent on you it's very scary.  It's no "act of god" anymore.  This person has made a choice to hurt you (I assume they are trying to take my life) and you need to make it more expensive than it's worth to him.  No hesitation and mercy has it's place once the fight is won.


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## chinto (Jun 9, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> You can't teach someone what it's going to be like on the street. At best, you can teach them what it might be like. Nothing compares. Even being in a crisis situation or disaster where your life is in danger isn't the same. When another sentient conciousness turns malevolent and violent on you it's very scary. It's no "act of god" anymore. This person has made a choice to hurt you (I assume they are trying to take my life) and you need to make it more expensive than it's worth to him. No hesitation and mercy has it's place once the fight is won.


 

yes that is true, and we are tought that if it is on the street it is a situation of dispatch the attacker as fast and efficently as you can. worry about the cops and other after. but if its a 10 year old kid your responce is not going to be the same provably as if its a 17 year old hood with say 2 of his/her buddys.   but yes there is a lot of fear, at least if you have any brains at all there is a huge amount of fear. so you train to concentrate and disiplin your mind as well as your body so you do not panic and or let fear controle you. that is actualy one of the benifits of proper study of kata, but stress and fear are a fact of any altercation. in the end if you end up in one on the street you will have to function. its that simple. and that is the same for any one regardless of style. remember there is no mat, no lights, no rules and no refferee to step in, so I do not beleave that there is any advantage to something like muay thai that way.  all you can do is try and get them to think about the fact that there will be great fear and pain, and put a lot of stress in other ways as you can in the dojo.


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## seasoned (Jun 11, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> You can't teach someone what it's going to be like on the street. At best, you can teach them what it might be like. Nothing compares. Even being in a crisis situation or disaster where your life is in danger isn't the same. When another sentient conciousness turns malevolent and violent on you it's very scary. It's no "act of god" anymore. This person has made a choice to hurt you (I assume they are trying to take my life) and you need to make it more expensive than it's worth to him. No hesitation and mercy has it's place once the fight is won.


Very well put, if I may add. Once you have looked into the eyes of death you have (2) choices, (1) pee your pants or stand and deliver.


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## chinto (Jun 12, 2007)

seasoned said:


> Very well put, if I may add. Once you have looked into the eyes of death you have (2) choices, (1) pee your pants or stand and deliver.


 

yes that is basicly true. and when you are there you will find out what you will do.  some of us have had that unfortunent experiance to find ourselves in that situation.  For myself, I will stand and deliver, but if you have never been in that situation, I sugest that you consider what you would do, and try to imagin it, and to harden your mind to the idea that if it does happen you will either win or you may die.

unfortunently it is true that if you fight you may die, but if you are attacked it is no longer you choice at that time. the choice was yours before you found yourself in jeperdy, so be awear and perhaps you will see it comeing and remove yourself from that situation before it happens.


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## Em MacIntosh (Jun 12, 2007)

I've formed a habit.  Any time I walk into a room I start drawing scenarios about how I would deal with this person, that person, closest weapon, closest rout to the door.  I draw many scenarios so I have an idea of what to do.  Some things you can plan on.  Location of pool-tables/furniture, size of the room, how far the exit is, which guys who will back him up are already seated etc.
For the things you can't plan on you can still make an educated guess.  Use the elements.  Kobudo, I think, is an important part of learning self defense (and strengthening the wrists).  They will give you a much better handle on improvised weapons.


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## chinto (Jun 13, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> I've formed a habit. Any time I walk into a room I start drawing scenarios about how I would deal with this person, that person, closest weapon, closest rout to the door. I draw many scenarios so I have an idea of what to do. Some things you can plan on. Location of pool-tables/furniture, size of the room, how far the exit is, which guys who will back him up are already seated etc.
> For the things you can't plan on you can still make an educated guess. Use the elements. Kobudo, I think, is an important part of learning self defense (and strengthening the wrists). They will give you a much better handle on improvised weapons.


 
yep, haveing found myself in that unfortunent position of fight or die once, well i do the same.  You walk in and imediatly feel the 'room vibe' so to speak, and then assess who is or may be a threat. Then you look for improvised weapons and egress and also 'high ground' and other posible tactical advantages. not obvous or even compleatly concious some times but you do it. you also look at who might back the attacker and other tactical things too like you said.  It is in short basicly good awearness, and that will hopefully keep me from haveing to deal with an altercation if I can detect it comeing and get out first.


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## Martin h (Jun 13, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> My problem with bunkai is that the opponent comes at you with a karate technique, not a street technique.



I, most energetically, do NOT agree with this. Some time ago I would have, but not now. The difference is that I started looking at Iain Abernethys works on bunkai. Bunkai that do NOT start with the opponent coming at you with martial art techniques, but actually is based on realistic situations and no-nonsense applications to counter street techniques. 

I highly recommend that you take a look at his work. It is a real eyeopener.
http://www.iainabernethy.com/


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## Em MacIntosh (Jun 14, 2007)

I imagine you do agree with me.  I've trained in chito-ryu.  Bunkai was done with karate techniques _there._  I'm sure Mr. Abernathy has some great training methods_._


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## chinto (Jun 18, 2007)

Martin h said:


> I, most energetically, do NOT agree with this. Some time ago I would have, but not now. The difference is that I started looking at Iain Abernethys works on bunkai. Bunkai that do NOT start with the opponent coming at you with martial art techniques, but actually is based on realistic situations and no-nonsense applications to counter street techniques.
> 
> I highly recommend that you take a look at his work. It is a real eyeopener.
> http://www.iainabernethy.com/


 

yes and no, In that a man who is trained will tend to use strait punches as well as hooks and things. but some on the street use both or only strait punches like a martial artists tend to prefer, and other hooks and such more like an untrained brawler.  we look at bunkai from both perspectives , the liner and the circuler, and the brawler. We cover the ground both ways, and I think that is a good thing to do.  but, not all street fighters are brawlers who only use the big hooking punches and not all martial artists are going to use only liner techniques, so I would recomend you do at least look at both.


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## Em MacIntosh (Jun 18, 2007)

In retrospect, I don't think it's so much the technique as much as the calm, controlled atmosphere.  Not that we have  whole lot of choice.  To practice under pressure mimics the encounter better, as does relentless, fast attack (an attempt to overpower).  It has it's place beside sparring, but sparring I find more fluid and under more pressure.  I'm finding I'm leaning less and less toward bunkai.  Though most bunkai is like jiu jitsu to me.


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## chinto (Aug 7, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> In retrospect, I don't think it's so much the technique as much as the calm, controlled atmosphere. Not that we have whole lot of choice. To practice under pressure mimics the encounter better, as does relentless, fast attack (an attempt to overpower). It has it's place beside sparring, but sparring I find more fluid and under more pressure. I'm finding I'm leaning less and less toward bunkai. Though most bunkai is like jiu jitsu to me.


 

bunkai is a very good tool! should be used to point out how meany diferent things kata is teaching you weather you realize it or not.
sparring is also a good tool! It helps a lot with distance and timeing and other things such as reaction time and such. I would say that each is a tool for a diferent thing but together they help us understand and aply that understanding.


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