# 4 Attackers



## Poggy (Mar 30, 2005)

Hey all.... well.... i got attacked by 4 chavs yesterday!!!

It took 4 of em to have a go at me... puffs!!!

Got a lot of cuts n bruises on my head, because thats where all of em hit me/kneed  me/kicked me!!

First one attacked me, and i concentreated on him really becuase he could have hit me in the face... but he got a good pasting off me, but whilst i was doing that the rest were hitting me! But i didnt feel a thing... either sissy punches or i've got nothing to damage up there hehe (probably second option!  )

Anyway... i was just wondering... anyone have any advice incase something like this happens again?

Oh btw... police are coming today, im going to press charges. IF the police dont do sod all, then i'm going to go after each one of them when they're on their own. See how "hard" they are then.


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## bignick (Mar 30, 2005)

What we're you doing that you got attacked by four people?

Avoiding those types of situations at all costs would be my first piece of self-defense advice.


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## Simon Curran (Mar 30, 2005)

They won't be all that hard 1 on 1, that is why they went after you mob handed, but the best advice I could offer (apart from not being there) in that situation is to go after the biggest first and cause injury (not just pain, but real injury) and if the others still want to play after that, go down the list doing the same, but trying to keep the person you are concentrating on between you and the others...

By the way, well done for getting out of it in one piece.


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## Poggy (Mar 30, 2005)

3 of them (there were 5 in total but one held my mate back) were up in town, having a go at my mate for something he didn't do, so i had a go back, saying it was ******** what they were accusing him of, etc. That was the end of that.

Then on the way home, we saw the 3, but with 2 of their mates. As i walked past, one ran in front of me, the others behind and to my side, and then shouted "what the ****ing hell have you got to say?!"... the one ran at me, as i backed off i came up against a short wall and ended up sitting on it. He then grabbed me, i quickly glanced at my mate to see what he was doing, as i did so... he hit me !! So i turned back and said "**** this" and punched him in the face... as soon as i did that... 3 others jumped up next to us.... then the lad hit me again, so i hit him back... then he went to headbutt me, but i avoided that, grabbed his head and started punching as hard as i could in his face... meanwhile the others were hitting me... then when there were too many fists, etc coming in i decided to protect my face... so i put my arms there... i saw him going to hit me, and quickly shot my left arm out, this only caught him on the side of the head so i put my thumb in his eye socket and pushed as hard as possible!! It got him off me so i guess it worked  and somehow afta that.... i managed to end up on the other side of the road!!

AFTA it all happened.... ppl ran out asking if i was alright!!! .... um yeh m8s i jus been beat up! cuda come out a bit ealier!


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## MA-Caver (Mar 30, 2005)

bignick said:
			
		

> What we're you doing that you got attacked by four people?
> 
> Avoiding those types of situations at all costs would be my first piece of self-defense advice.


I agree where were you because being in the wrong place at the wrong time is another contributing factor in being attacked. Were words exchanged? Did they give you any type of warning before hand? 

For next time... if at all possible, as soon as the opportunity presents itself and there's a clear line of sight... RUN! <this does *NOT* make you a coward> 4:1 odds... not very good.


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## Poggy (Mar 30, 2005)

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> They won't be all that hard 1 on 1, that is why they went after you mob handed, but the best advice I could offer (apart from not being there) in that situation is to go after the biggest first and cause injury (not just pain, but real injury) and if the others still want to play after that, go down the list doing the same, but trying to keep the person you are concentrating on between you and the others...
> 
> By the way, well done for getting out of it in one piece.



This is what i did... more or less... i kept the main attacker right by me by holding his head and punching his face hehe but the others got me at the same time.

Sorry but they must have had some really weak punches, etc because i've got a few cuts and brusies yeh... but to say 4 ppl attacked me, i havent come out too bad.

IF it had of been a one on one fight, i wouldnt bother with the police but the fact is... it was 4 on 1


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## Simon Curran (Mar 30, 2005)

Poggy said:
			
		

> IF it had of been a one on one fight, i wouldnt bother with the police but the fact is... it was 4 on 1


Can't fault you there.


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## Poggy (Mar 30, 2005)

oh didnt noticed youd put it before "well done for getting out in one piece" - thanks hehe

better luck next time lads!


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## Simon Curran (Mar 30, 2005)

Poggy said:
			
		

> oh didnt noticed youd put it before "well done for getting out in one piece" - thanks hehe
> 
> better luck next time lads!


You're welcome, but for what it's worth it maybe best to avoid there being a next time (somtimes easier said than done, I know) who is to say that "next time" they won't pull a knife?


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## bignick (Mar 30, 2005)

Actually I'd count you as the lucky one.

 I don't care who you are or how much training you've had, 4:1 odds are still a bad situation to be in. Glad you made it out pretty much intact, after the violence started it sounded like you escaped when you could, which was good...

 If even one of them would have had a weapon, it wouldn't have made much of a difference how "sissy" their punches were. While you were tied up with one of them, all it would take is a club to the back of the head or knife in the back or a kidney and I doubt things would have went so well for you.

 You never know what people will do to avenge a bruised ego...


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## Poggy (Mar 30, 2005)

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> You're welcome, but for what it's worth it maybe best to avoid there being a next time (somtimes easier said than done, I know) who is to say that "next time" they won't pull a knife?



True true... 
hopefully there isnt going to be a next time, because they should be on bail  and wouldnt wanna make it worse for emselves by attacking me again.

Do you know what really pisses me off.... the fact i was ill so couldnt perform v well 2 start with ( i even said to my mate in town that im glad no1 started on him cuz i cnt put up much of a gud fight due to been ill),
and that i know each one of them are as good at fighting as i am flying a fighter jet (gud example i guess )


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## Poggy (Mar 30, 2005)

If they'd have had a weapon of somesort... i'd have been screwed!! i admit that. Luckily they didnt though

My mum and sister are worried now. Well my sister actually... because all the lads live in rough areas and i mean rough!! and one... has a big family and they're all nutters. Well my sister recons if i was to go after him, his family would come after me and my family - so ok for their safety i wont bother with him. But she also says if i press charges against him, the same will happen! But screw that... someone needs to stand up against them.


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## Simon Curran (Mar 30, 2005)

Poggy said:
			
		

> True true...
> hopefully there isnt going to be a next time, because they should be on bail  and wouldnt wanna make it worse for emselves by attacking me again.
> 
> Do you know what really pisses me off.... the fact i was ill so couldnt perform v well 2 start with ( i even said to my mate in town that im glad no1 started on him cuz i cnt put up much of a gud fight due to been ill),
> and that i know each one of them are as good at fighting as i am flying a fighter jet (gud example i guess )


I know how you feel (I was 19 once as well) but there is always someone bigger and better, try to bear that in mind


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## Simon Curran (Mar 30, 2005)

Poggy said:
			
		

> But she also says if i press charges against him, the same will happen! But screw that... someone needs to stand up against them.


Agreed you shouldn't have to live in fear for yourself or your family, the police way is going to be a safer route though


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## Poggy (Mar 30, 2005)

This whole thing has made me realise one thing.... 
i hated chavs before... i hate them even more now!!!!

It's only a small town i live in but you wouldn't believe some of the stuff that goes on here... daily!!! You tell people from out of town, and they won't believe you when you tell them some of the stuff that happens! "ooo drayton seems such a lovely place" - yeh right!! try living here!!

My girlfriend is the best example... when i drive through town she beeps my horn at random people... and i tell her not to, because people here take offence to it!!! And you never know who shes beeping at anyway.


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## Simon Curran (Mar 30, 2005)

Poggy said:
			
		

> It's only a small town i live in but you wouldn't believe some of the stuff that goes on here... daily!!! You tell people from out of town, and they won't believe you when you tell them some of the stuff that happens! "ooo drayton seems such a lovely place" - yeh right!! try living here!!


Don't worry, I believe you, I grew up in a mining town during and after the '84 miner's strike, so I know small towns can be nasty which is part of the reason I moved away.


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## Poggy (Mar 30, 2005)

I do and don't want to move away. I've spent most of my life here... but to be honest... i fear for my mum & sisters safety, because i know what this place is like, plus.. there's nothing here what so ever. Certainly nothing keeping me here! Other than kickboxing lessons lol but i can travel into town for them.

Sooner we get away... the better!!


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## Simon Curran (Mar 30, 2005)

Good luck wherever life takes you.


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## Bammx2 (Mar 30, 2005)

Poggy...

I'm an american living and teaching here in the UK and I understand completely what you've been saying about multiples!
 And I am sorry to say...no offence to you at all...there is NO honour here!
Hence the multiple attackers.
I have been in that situation and I have done the rvenge thing of finding them one at a time...legally,bad idea.(but we know what the law is like here the UK!)
 Morally........
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




Law or justice....hhmm.....
It does give them something to think about the next time they think about jumping someone!


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## Simon Curran (Mar 30, 2005)

Bammx2 said:
			
		

> Poggy...
> 
> I'm an american living and teaching here in the UK and I understand completely what you've been saying about multiples!
> And I am sorry to say...no offence to you at all...there is NO honour here!
> ...


I'm an Englishman who couldn't wait to get away for that reason (amongst others)


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## bdparsons (Mar 30, 2005)

Poggy said:
			
		

> IF the police dont do sod all, then i'm going to go after each one of them when they're on their own. See how "hard" they are then.



So this is where the line is between being attacked by thugs and becoming one yourself.

Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## Poggy (Mar 30, 2005)

"So this is where the line is between being attacked by thugs and becoming one yourself."
This is very true... but sometimes in life... you've got to think "**** it" 

Sorry to all the other English on here.. but England absolutely sucks!!! It really does. From money to chavs... oh and the weather!! everything here really does suck!!

Everyone i've told (that knows the lads) have said that they only attacked me in a gang because they know if they were on their own... they wouldn't stand a chance. They really wouldn't. Most people in this town have a REPUTATION for been "hard"... and they get that by using a gang to beat someone up. Individually they're as much threat as an ant to an elephant.

Sorry lol i get really wound up just thinking about what happened.
I think i've already said this, but the hardest thing is NOT getting in my car, going round to their houses and making sure them come off worse than i have done from their attack.

Thanks for all your replies though  Been so wound up about what happened and then coming on here, reading your messages, etc calms me down. (don't ask lol)


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## Poggy (Mar 30, 2005)

Bammx2 said:
			
		

> Poggy...
> 
> I'm an american living and teaching here in the UK and I understand completely what you've been saying about multiples!
> And I am sorry to say...no offence to you at all...there is NO honour here!
> ...



That's the one down side to sorting this out myself... the law will then be against me!

Having said that... the police (well the policeman dealing with this incident) is really good actually. He keeps ringing to make sure i'm ok. He was going to come round, but i went out for a couple of minutes, and whilst i was out he rang to ask if it's ok to come round and get a statement. Typical really! Anyway.. he's coming round tomorrow at 2.30 hehe

Everytime i talk to my mate about what happened, he tells me more stuff that i did that i can't remember! He has to tell me before i can remember. Weird isn't it?! THe memory will be like a little flashback. Might be because of been hit in the head?

This whole incident has also made me realise... i train a lot for kicking & punching... but i need to start to concentrate more on grappling too!


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## Jerry (Mar 30, 2005)

Fighting Against Multiple Opponents (http://clearsilat.com/silat/Articles/MultipleAttackers.htm)*Copyright 2002 - by Gerald Love*

    Fighting multiple attackers is a situation every rational martial artist fears, and with good reason. As artists we train with a few basic ideas that make this particularly terrifying. In this article I will attempt to explain, in relatively generic terms, the assumptions we must make, and methods we must use to survive the multiple-attacker scenario.

*Assumptions*

    Let's start with the assumptions made in general of martial situations and the ones we need to make in regards to this situation. The first assumption is in regards to the opponent's skill and ability. There is an old axiom in fighting to never assume that your opponent is inferior to yourself in fighting ability. This is typically a very good perspective, as it prevents you from acting from a position of overconfidence. The problem appears when you attempt to apply this logic to a multiple-attacker situation. As the old "could you defeat two of yourself" argument goes, the chance of prevailing against two or more opponents under that assumption is so low that many martial arts have chose to ignore that line of training all-together.

    That said, let's make some new paradigms. We don't know how good our opponent or opponents are; we shall assume from a tactic standpoint that they are as good or better as we are; this encourages us to only fight in situations where we would fight even if we knew we were going to loose. Since I think this is a good acid test for "should I fight or run", this works well. Though we have decided to train with that mentality, we recognize none-the-less that we, as martial artists, have devoted our time and sweat to becoming better fighters, and the reality is that our opponents on the street are likely to be less-capable fighters than we are. Therefore, it is quite possible to win the multiple-opponent situation. Further, since the fight has been forced, we have no real option but to try to win, so let's move on.

*The Setup*

    So how do we accomplish it? Well, all situations and artists are unique. Let's get the obvious out of the way. Don't be there. That is, attempt escape or de-escalation from the moment you realize the danger. Start trying to position yourself near the exit, near the wall, near the bouncer, whatever from the beginning, even as you are trying to end the situation. I'll start with the assumption that this has failed and combat has started with you surrounded; if you start already at the outside, then you will have accomplished the first few steps anyway.

    Rule one of all fights, especially multiple-attacker fights, is "keep moving". Be in motion before the fight starts and don't stand still. When you stand still, that allows your opponents to choose to hit you on their terms and all at once, you will go down and you will loose. 

    Rule two, you want to be able to see all of them. This means that you don't want to be in the "middle of the circle". You want to move to the outside of your opponents so that all of your opponents are in the smallest arc in-front of you that you can manage (a 360 degree circle is bad, all lined up in a 5 degree arc is good). How you will move from the inside to the outside will vary based on your art and situation. The first, easiest, way, is if there is an opening in their group that you can run through. If there is a wall (or better, an exit) there wonderful. A wall makes sure that they cannot get behind you again. Be wary, however of corners for they are mixed blessings, you limit your opponents to a 90 degree arc, but you are also immobile. (remember rule one)

*The Fight*

    If there is not a hole already there for you, you are going to have to make one. There are a couple ways to do so, and your training will determine which you can use. Our first choice is available on video (tape 1s24), you may be able to charge through someone close, or grapple and reverse position; the details of how any individual should best accomplish this is beyond the scope of this article.

    Once you have some sort of tenable position the fighting begins. You usually want to fight the most aggressive opponent; one good reason for this is he will be the closest to you (being the most aggressive) and therefore the most convenient target. It's important to keep moving (rule 1) and to make sure they don't get behind you again. I find that baiting attacks is useful for this; offer a target and withdraw it in order to lure your closest opponent into committing to an attack at your prompting. 

    If someone gets in real close, beat them around and use them as a shield against the others; but if they manage to make a good-effort escape or someone gets past them, let go and move to the next guy; you don't want to let yourself get tied up with one person when another has moved into position (remember you need to remain mobile).

    Keep looking for that escape position, while you may exhaust all of your opponents, that's unlikely enough that you should be really using this as a tactic to escape. If that's really not possible, look to clutter the battlefield as much as possible, make them work to get to you, so you can have less to deal with at a single time.

    If there is no way to maneuver to escape, then you should look at relatively quick methods of removing opponents from the fight. What that is will vary based on available weapons and your skills and tactics. Mechanical disables (hyperextensions of knees and ankles), rendering unconscious or dead, and virtual disables (blinding) are all effective methods of removing someone from pursuit and effectively fighting you. If you disable one attacker then move, you are fighting that many less; disable enough and the fight is over.


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## RBaddorf (Mar 30, 2005)

Poggy,
How far are you from Surrey or Middlesex?

Surrey=Leon Jay
Middlesex=Paul Bowman


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## still learning (Mar 30, 2005)

Hello, You were lucky they didn't use weapons of any kind.  The worst thing you can do is stay there and fight back.

 There is video tape in my library and I can't find it(to many). But the person in the tape is a street fighter type. He recommends shooting to the nearst person with your two hands towards his shoulder, shove and turn the guy and keep moving on. You can keeping doing this till the you can find a chance to run away. There were other things too, but this is what I remember most. They show a example of a person at a ATM machine being approach by four guys. Looks like it works. 

  Note: if possible shove the guy into the next guy and keep them in front of each other. ("The Art of war) good book!  

  Awareness and Avoid - This is the true meaning of our training!  ......Aloha


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## Poggy (Mar 31, 2005)

RBaddorf, i'm not sure how far i live from there.
Do you know Telford/Shrewsbury? I live close to there! (About 15 miles away).

Well just finished giving a statement to the police  Hopefully the lads will be arrested next week. The same police constable is going to deal with it. HE STOLE MY PEN!!! lol i've jus realised! i let him borrow my pen, and hes taken it! grr n cops r meant to be honest

Anyway, just a quick update (really useful info for ya'll)... i'm ok now. jus keep picking little bits of dried blood outa my ear, and a bit of a snore nose.

Had victim support ring me yesterday. I told them the only help i want is anger management - so i dont go kil the lads  (but that was meant as a joke).

Anyway, it's all very well watching videos stilllearning, but at the time the adrenaline/whatever won't always allow you to simply push your way out. I doubt id have been able to push out of that... the lads are my height and a bit bigger build. I'm only about 140 pounds (10 stone)
As for avoidance... i'll be doing a lot of that now, well until the police have seen the lads. Don't want any more incidents. BUt then again, it'd go against them anyway!


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## MichiganTKD (Mar 31, 2005)

One of our black belt students was in Chicago years ago with a friend of his when four guys with knives attacked. From what I was told, he took out two of them with front kicks, and the other two ran away. After it was over, and he realized that he could have been killed, he threw up into the nearest garbage can.

Conclusion:
1. Don't think-respond automatically
2. Keep moving
3. Stick with basics.


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## RBaddorf (Mar 31, 2005)

Poggy

I am not very familier with where things are in the UK.  I think Surrey is south west of London, and Middlesex is north east of London.  Hope that helps.

Ron


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## Clive (Mar 31, 2005)

Well one thing that really made this difficult is the fact that you had to look out for your friend. In a mass attack you cannot be stationary, you have to keep moving otherwise you become a easy target for lots of people. Look for the gap, if there is a space between two people, aim for it, thats your exit, if there isnt one then make one. Don't concentrate on one guy or you will have that same problem of being attacked from the rear. 

But the fact that you immediately want to go out and get these guys suggests you need to focus on your own anger and ability to control it. I had a similar problem with guys from a big family where I live and you are right they are nothing on their own, but if you walk near them or past them you are a potential target. Simple solution - avoid them. You never know one day one of them may need your help.


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## Bammx2 (Mar 31, 2005)

Clive said:
			
		

> You never know one day one of them may need your help.


 
I must admit...I got the snot kicked out of me when I was a kid by a group of guys once and I repaid the favor by bailing the biggest out of a fight about 6 months later.I never got bothered again


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## Poggy (Apr 1, 2005)

Clive said:
			
		

> But the fact that you immediately want to go out and get these guys suggests you need to focus on your own anger and ability to control it. I had a similar problem with guys from a big family where I live and you are right they are nothing on their own, but if you walk near them or past them you are a potential target. Simple solution - avoid them. You never know one day one of them may need your help.



I'm totally aware of this. I can control my anger (otherwise i would have beat at least one lad by now as i passed him yesterday and he was on his own), but i need to sort myself so that i never feel this way in the first place!

If any of them ever need me help... they can keep crying for it because they simply will not get it. They're known through town and disliked by all. Even one of their own brothers totaly hates them (he's out with my g/fs best mates sister lol and my gf told him what happened - he told me to make sure i press charges!!)

RBaddorf: That's hundreds of miles away from me lol I live in the West Midlands.

Oh well.... only about 6 more days and the lads won't be free to walk around starting trouble anymore hehe (the police have my statement, are getting witness statements today and tomorrow, and then next week when PC Martin (the policeman dealing with it) is back on, he'll arrest them.


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## Simon Curran (Apr 1, 2005)

Poggy said:
			
		

> Oh well.... only about 6 more days and the lads won't be free to walk around starting trouble anymore hehe (the police have my statement, are getting witness statements today and tomorrow, and then next week when PC Martin (the policeman dealing with it) is back on, he'll arrest them.


Let's just hope the court system does what it is supposed to.


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## Poggy (Apr 1, 2005)

... and that the lads learn their lesson!

I'm not been weird or anything... but just wanna say... the support u guys on here give is great!! It's nice talking to lots of different people that know what they're talking about, and give useful advice!!


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## Simon Curran (Apr 1, 2005)

Poggy said:
			
		

> I'm not been weird or anything... but just wanna say... the support u guys on here give is great!! It's nice talking to lots of different people that know what they're talking about, and give useful advice!!


Yep, the internet is great.


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## Bammx2 (Apr 1, 2005)

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> Let's just hope the court system does what it is supposed to.


Now thats funny!!
Simon,you have been gone from here way too long!
You lucky man!





But seriously,it would be really great if the courts did do at least, this one right.


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## Loki (Apr 1, 2005)

Dude... when we have 2 on 1 sparring matches, that's hard enough!

If you absolutely must fight, try to keep all of them within your field of vision, always using one as a shield from the others by keeping him between you and them (kinda hard with four people!). If you're surrounded, send attacks flying in all directions, never focusing on one guy too long (one or two attacks each) and (obviously) try to get out. Make up for being outnumbered by attacking faster.

Kudos for coming out on top :asian:
Keep us posted on how the lawsuit goes.

~ Loki


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## MJS (Apr 1, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> Dude... when we have 2 on 1 sparring matches, that's hard enough!
> 
> If you absolutely must fight, try to keep all of them within your field of vision, always using one as a shield from the others by keeping him between you and them (kinda hard with four people!). If you're surrounded, send attacks flying in all directions, never focusing on one guy too long (one or two attacks each) and (obviously) try to get out. Make up for being outnumbered by attacking faster.
> 
> ...



Good point!! Anytime you're facing more than 1 person, using one as a shield is a good way to go.  Obviously, you don't want to tie up too long with the guy, but it may buy you a few seconds to allow for an escape.  In addition, the sight of one of the guys getting pounded may make the others think twice about attacking you.

Mike

Mike


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## Simon Curran (Apr 2, 2005)

Bammx2 said:
			
		

> Now thats funny!!
> Simon,you have been gone from here way too long!
> You lucky man!
> 
> ...


  :roflmao:
  Point taken...


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## Poggy (Apr 3, 2005)

Next time... i might just breathe on the lads  hehe
had a cold for 2 weeks now!! n nose is blocked so i breathe through my mouth all the time... damn!! it aint pleasant :-/

saw the lads last night... walked past with a big smile on their faces, so they got one back (guess they don't know what's about to happen to em hehe), then my gf went mad and tried to chase em, but i pulled her back. bless her heart


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## Simon Curran (Apr 3, 2005)

Poggy said:
			
		

> Next time... i might just breathe on the lads  hehe
> had a cold for 2 weeks now!! n nose is blocked so i breathe through my mouth all the time... damn!! it aint pleasant :-/
> 
> saw the lads last night... walked past with a big smile on their faces, so they got one back (guess they don't know what's about to happen to em hehe), then my gf went mad and tried to chase em, but i pulled her back. bless her heart


Girlfriends can be like that...


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## Tidy_Sammy (Apr 3, 2005)

Seek revenge and get each of them all alone, take them out 1 by 1 individually, I'm sure they'll learn their lesson.


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## Tony (Apr 3, 2005)

This reminds me of he time when i was attacked when i was 17 by 4 guys a lot older than me from late 20s - late 30s. This was before i studied any martial art. I was really scared and this was just a simple attack for money but because i didn't have much they tried to beat the **** out of me but I managed to get away with out a bruise on me except for my jacket (they broke the zip and they definately should ahve paid for that because I loved that jacket!)

I wish i could have got revenge but then again I should be thankful I'm still alive to type all this! I don't know how i would deal with it now, now that i have 7 years of Martial Arts experience but i would like to think I could handle myself!

A couepl of friends of mine went on holiday to Greece and were attacked by abput 10 albanians. LUckily they weren't too badly beaten except the guy tye were with who was cut by a knife! Just goes to show you ahve to be aware of yoru surroundings and use soem common sense, but at the same time be prepared to fight if you have to.


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 4, 2005)

Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

circumvention of profanity filter is not  being polite and respectful

Sheldon Bedell
-MT Moderator-


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## Poggy (Apr 5, 2005)

It's just sad that it takes gangs of people to attack one person.

They think they're hard because they go round in their gangs taking out people when they're on their own. Well that's not hard... it's cowardish (if there's such a word).

The only "hard" person is the one been beat up!


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## Poggy (Apr 5, 2005)

P.S: To Mods: Sorry about the profanity


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## Jerry (Apr 6, 2005)

> Well that's not hard... it's cowardish


 It's also good tactics. I believe the police and millitairy refer to it as "overwhelming force".


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## Poggy (Apr 6, 2005)

True enough... if you're looking at it from that point of view.

But as far as starting a fight... that's cowardish.


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## Bammx2 (Apr 6, 2005)

thats why I am a firm beliver in carrying something to DEFEND yourself with.

but don't do it in the UK....you are a criminal at that point!
there are no honest law abiding citizens here...they are ALL treated as criminals,even if if you carry an umbrella on a sunny day or a walking stick without a note from your mom..sorry,DOCTOR.
By law,if you tell a copper you carry a KUBATON for DEFENSE,he "has" to arrest you for being in possesion of an offensive weapon.
Oh please.............:2xBird2:


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## Bod (Apr 7, 2005)

> By law,if you tell a copper you carry a KUBATON for DEFENSE,he "has" to arrest you for being in possesion of an offensive weapon.


Not true. If you carry a Kubotan at all in a public place (except when not 'to hand') you are breaking the law under the 'manufactured' clause.


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## Simon Curran (Apr 8, 2005)

Bod said:
			
		

> Not true. If you carry a Kubotan at all in a public place (except when not 'to hand') you are breaking the law under the 'manufactured' clause.


 Yeah "manufactured, modified or intended", but it is still an offensive weapon.


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## Bod (Apr 8, 2005)

Yeah, I got caught years ago with a Kabutan believing in the 'intended only' myth. Got away with a warning.

Sad thing is I never intended to use it. It had got attached to my keys and stopped them falling through the hole in my pocket, so I actually used it as a keychain and a keychain only. 

Now I've read the relevant sections in the 1988(?) Criminal Justice Act I won't get caught out again, unless they've changed the law since.


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## Bammx2 (Apr 8, 2005)

Bod said:
			
		

> Not true. If you carry a Kubotan at all in a public place (except when not 'to hand') you are breaking the law under the 'manufactured' clause.


Sorry,I was only quoting police officers(in 4 different cities) who said If I had intended on using it for self-defense...it was "intent" to be used as a weapon.
I do not know anything about the "manufactured" clause.
But at the end of the day,it could a-hole cops or whatever,but to everyones opinion I have met...if you're not an mp or not an LEO of some sort...you are too stupid to be capable of reasonable thought,so,the police and government have to do it for you.
This is ONLY a slam to the "higher ups"......not the "real" citizens of England.
 They are are the only ones who matter to me.


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## Simon Curran (Apr 8, 2005)

Kind of drifting a little from the original topic of the thread, I know, but it seems to me quite hypocritical of the police authorities to arm officers with "The Asp" an extendable baton, in favour of the prior side handled nightstick they used to use, an extendable baton is quite evidently an offensive weapon, whereas the side handled nightstick (or tonfa) is equal parts offensive and defensive...
 Seems kinda like the pot calling the kettle black to me...


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