# Let's talk about fat people



## Thesemindz (Mar 22, 2009)

So tonight I'm delivering a pizza to this trailor, and the person who answers the door is this pissed off fat chick who has to weigh four hundred pounds. Easily.

And while she's glaring at me, I start working some self defense scenarios through my head. I'm looking at the door and thinking about slamming it into her as I retreat, and I'm checking my footing on her porch steps, and I'm planning to throw the pizza bag at her feet to try and trip her up. Nothing I don't do at every single delivery. But I get to thinking. This chick is huge. She's at least as tall as I am, and half again as wide. She's big, and pissed off, and I don't really want to get in a fight with her.

Of course, nothing happened, she paid for the pizza and I went on my way. But this got me thinking about fat people. 

Now, I'm not thin. In fact, I'm fat. I wasn't always, but I am now, and I need to work on that. But I also know, because I've done martial arts both fat and thin, that the extra weight changes my fighting style, a lot. 

I started fat, and learned to use my "back up mass" to throw my opponents around. I learned to use my elbow strikes as pushes to move around people smaller than me. When I lost the weight, these things didn't work anymore. I had to relearn how to use certain moves and techniques to adjust for my greatly decreased body mass. Now I'm fat again, and can use the old stuff, but I've lost the speed I had when I was smaller.

So in the past when I've fought fat people in the dojo, it affected my strategy. They're harder to grapple, harder to strike, and harder to escape. In a confined space, they take up more room and are harder to evade. I've grappled with people so fat I couldn't mount them correctly, and had to resort to less effective "cowboy" style mounts. The extra layers of fat can protect their internal targets to some degree, and help to dissipate the force of strikes. 

All those things don't necessarily make them harder to _fight_, it just means you have to fight them differently. Smaller, more fit people may be faster, and have more endurance, or they may strike with more snapping and whipping strikes. Don't underestimate a fat person's endurance though. After years of training, I had a more developed cardiovascular system than many of my thinner contemporaries, and could run circles around them sparring and grappling after they gassed. Fatness and thinness don't necessarily equate to fitness.

So what do you guys think? I don't want this to turn into fat bashing. I'm fat too. I get it. I just want to discuss approaches to fighting overweight people, and what you've learned or observed in doing so.


-Rob


----------



## still learning (Mar 22, 2009)

Hello, A good defense to learn is "running" ...fat people can't run far...?

  " Off course this technique need to be weight?" because if you are fat too?  How far can you run?

Aloha,   There is a Luau tomorrow?   ...anyone wants to join us?


----------



## jarrod (Mar 22, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> I've grappled with people so fat I couldn't mount them correctly, and had to resort to less effective "cowboy" style mounts. The extra layers of fat can protect their internal targets to some degree, and help to dissipate the force of strikes.


 
i'm not sure what you mean by a cowboy mount, but when i have mount on someone with a big belly, i'll lift up one knee, let's say my left, & dig my left heel in tight to their body, with my toes pointing away from them.  it works better if your body is upright, but it can work low too.  i don't think it's better or worse, but you're right, you do have to do something different for certain body types.  

as for your job, just throw the pizza one way & run the other.  i bet you're safer than the pizza.

jf


----------



## Thesemindz (Mar 22, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello, A good defense to learn is "running" ...fat people can't run far...?
> 
> " Off course this technique need to be weight?" because if you are fat too? How far can you run?
> 
> Aloha, There is a Luau tomorrow? ...anyone wants to join us?


 
While your approach certainly has merit, you might be surprised at how quickly fat people may be able to move over short distances. 

But all and all, this isn't a bad approach to self defense in general. I always said that avoiding dangerous situations is 99% of self defense. Another .9 percent is running away from violent situations you can't avoid. Only that last .01 percent is actually having to fight, whether the opponent is fat or not. Of course, this assumes your motivation is true self defense, and not mutual combat or saving face. 

All that aside though, what about those situations where you might actually have to fight a fat person? For instance, here's a video of a fat chick beating up a smaller skinnier guy. Warning, language.


-Rob


----------



## Thesemindz (Mar 22, 2009)

jarrod said:


> i'm not sure what you mean by a cowboy mount, but when i have mount on someone with a big belly, i'll lift up one knee, let's say my left, & dig my left heel in tight to their body, with my toes pointing away from them. it works better if your body is upright, but it can work low too. i don't think it's better or worse, but you're right, you do have to do something different for certain body types.


 
Yah, that's sorta what I'm talking about. It's where one knee is down like in a normal mount, but the other knee is up with your foot on the ground. It leaves you less stable and at a slight angle to your opponent, but you have to make adjustments.



> as for your job, just throw the pizza one way & run the other. i bet you're safer than the pizza.


 
Ha! You may be right. In a real self defense situation, I'd probably throw the pizza high at their face and come in striking beneath it, work a takedown, stomp and run. But it all depends on the context. 

Home delivery is consistently in the top ten most lethal jobs in America. Most of those fatalities occur as a result of driving accidents, but a significant number are the result of robberies. I've personally known several people, including my father, who have been violently assaulted on the job delivering pizzas as part of a robbery. It happens, and when it does, you better have a plan. 

So I don't screw around. I _always_ have a plan. And on more than one occasion, I've walked away from a delivery when things looked hinky. The extra buck fifty aint worth it. Having a plan _might_ not save my life, but not having one _definitely_ won't.


-Rob


----------



## jarrod (Mar 22, 2009)

it's always surprised my how many delivery drivers do their job bombed out of their minds.  even if you aren't a martial artist, it seems like a good idea to have your wits about you when you go to other peoples houses late at night for a living.  not to mention it's not very safe driving.  plus running through those scenarios is just good mental training.  

jf


----------



## Thesemindz (Mar 22, 2009)

jarrod said:


> it's always surprised my how many delivery drivers do their job bombed out of their minds. even if you aren't a martial artist, it seems like a good idea to have your wits about you when you go to other peoples houses late at night for a living. not to mention it's not very safe driving. plus running through those scenarios is just good mental training.
> 
> jf


 
I won't lie, there's a fair bit of drug use, and abuse, in pizza delivery. Any time you have large quantities of easy cash, undereducated young people, and relatively low standards for employment, you're going to have some irresponsible behavior amongst your crew. It is what it is.

At the same time, in pizza delivery I've worked with people who hold masters and doctorates. I've worked with preachers and teachers. I've worked with men who were on both sides of the korean war. It's a good job which requires little out of the employee. A full time pizza driver working the right hours can make the equivalent of a $36,000 dollar a year job in take home pay. I have a friend who has a masters degree in accounting and works as a CPA who doesn't make much more than that, and he works a hell of a lot more than forty hours on salary.

It is what it is. But I have a family. So I look left twice before pulling out into traffic, and when I walk up to a door, I look around the bushes for anybody waiting to jump me, and I keep my footing when they answer the door.

I'm not paranoid, but I am careful.


-Rob


----------



## Flea (Mar 22, 2009)

Honestly, it never dawned on me that delivery people could be targets for robbery.  I've never done that work myself, but none of my friends who have told me anything to that effect either.  One friend said customers would often call in after the fact with bizarre manufactured complaints (your delivery guy threatened to rape me!) to get a refund.  People are weird.  People are _so_ weird.

As for the fat question, have you watched much sumo?  I'd imagine you'd pick up some worthwhile stuff there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ue171yjKmA&feature=related


----------



## searcher (Mar 22, 2009)

Thesemindz-when it comes to the size of a person I look at th targets that are exposed on ALL people(ears, eyes, etc.).    No matter the size, if you pop their eardrum or you take out an eye, they are going down.    Or they will at least be rendered senseless for a short time.    Time enough to get away.  

Also think about your breathing.    Try to keep it smooth and even plus they need to be irritated.    This will allow them to get short-winded very quickly(most people get that way even if they are in shape) and for you to still be fresh.    A winded BG is easier to control and most will give up in short order.   JMO.


----------



## MJS (Mar 22, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> So tonight I'm delivering a pizza to this trailor, and the person who answers the door is this pissed off fat chick who has to weigh four hundred pounds. Easily.
> 
> And while she's glaring at me, I start working some self defense scenarios through my head. I'm looking at the door and thinking about slamming it into her as I retreat, and I'm checking my footing on her porch steps, and I'm planning to throw the pizza bag at her feet to try and trip her up. Nothing I don't do at every single delivery. But I get to thinking. This chick is huge. She's at least as tall as I am, and half again as wide. She's big, and pissed off, and I don't really want to get in a fight with her.
> 
> ...


 
Some large people can be pretty surprising with how quick they move, strength, etc.  While someone may be overweight, IMO, I don't think that should mean that they're going to be easy.  However, from all of those that I have seen, stamina is usually their downfall.  

Now, I'll give my thoughts on the dojo and in the real world.  

Dojo:  As far as sparring goes, I think the best thing to do would be to use timing and wait until they're tired.  Their size may or may not hinder movement, so it may come down to the waiting game.  Of course, just because it may be more difficult to roll with them, do techniques on them, etc., that doesnt mean that its impossible.  You will just have to work harder on what you're doing.

Real life:  Hitting them in the stomach may not prove as effective for the obvious reasons.  However, no matter how big someone may be, there are still targets that will wear them down.  I would suggest:  kicking at the legs.  I'm not talking about a front kick, I'm talking about a solid round kick to the thigh.  I don't care how conditioned someone may be, a hit to the groin is an effective strike.  I would also suggest getting them on the defense.  This would require overwhelming them so quick, that they don't have a chance to think about much.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 22, 2009)

MJS said:


> Some large people can be pretty surprising with how quick they move, strength, etc.  While someone may be overweight, IMO, I don't think that should mean that they're going to be easy.  However, from all of those that I have seen, stamina is usually their downfall.
> 
> Now, I'll give my thoughts on the dojo and in the real world.
> 
> ...



I know some very large individuals that are really, really dangerous people.  They utilize their size, weight as an advantage and it can be a tremendous advantage in the moment if used properly.


----------



## terryl965 (Mar 22, 2009)

Omar B said:


> I've got plenty of faults ... like being tasteless for one. But as you said, what people think of me matters not unless you are giving me a pay check.
> 
> But back to my original point, the midsection's pretty much useless in their case. waste of energy for too little results. Go for the legs and watch out for the arms. Try to keep some distance and maybe they'll gas.


 
Probaly some good advice about the legs, but that would be against most people.


----------



## Omar B (Mar 22, 2009)

True, but the mid-section is more impervious to punches on a fat person so it makes more sense to go for the legs.  Same punch at a smaller person to the midsection would yield more damage.  Spear hand strikes, maybe.


----------



## Thesemindz (Mar 22, 2009)

In an effort to re-rail...I've also noticed a significant issue with trying to apply joint locks, chokes, and hugs and holds on fat people.

I know that they're joints are still vulnerable, because I had my knee wrenched by a training partner once about eight years ago resulting in an injury that's never fully healed, and still hurts from time to time. That being said, most people aren't able to apply effective bear hugs to me because by the time their arms come around, they can't get a good solid grip on me. 

As to chokes, in class one night we were doing a drill where we would engage an opponent at 12 oclock in a side headlock, perform a sacrifice fall backwards, taking our opponent over our heads and end in a neck tweak or worse. As we rotated around, I got partnered up with a big fat guy. During the drill, I could barely keep the headlock on him as I fell backwards, and had to release it early as I flipped him over to avoid injurying him badly. In addition to having to reach further to get my arm around his neck, his additional weight added a lot more momentum to the filp, and often resulted in him getting thrown further away when I landed.

Being bigger and heavier works both for and against fat people. It may cause them to gas, but it may also add significant mass to their strikes. It may slow them down, but they may be able to fill enough space to keep you from escaping. And don't make the mistake of thinking fat means no endurance. Like I said earlier, some fat people can run circles around skinny little punks who's only exercise is lighting a joint.

What techniques in your system would you have to adapt for effectiveness against fat people?


-Rob


----------



## TridentOne (Mar 22, 2009)

Remember the K-1 fight of Bob Sapp vs Ernesto Hoost. Sapp was HUGE. Hoost lost but Sapp was too banged up to continue. Hoost kicked his legs all up.


----------



## Thesemindz (Mar 22, 2009)

Here's another example of a fat versus skinny fight.





 
Notice the use of primarily unaimed wide swinging hand strikes, and the way the fat guy is able to dominate the small space.


-Rob


----------



## Omar B (Mar 22, 2009)

TridentOne said:


> Remember the K-1 fight of Bob Sapp vs Ernesto Hoost. Sapp was HUGE. Hoost lost but Sapp was too banged up to continue. Hoost kicked his legs all up.



Great, an example of what I was trying to say, thanks.

As for the joints thing.  I'm no grappler at all, but I've found that certain pressure points (around the arm pits, wrists, below the clavicle, etc) need a great deal more pressure and more precision for them to work.  So more bulk on you might help in that way.

Chop them down at the legs, works every time.


----------



## Thesemindz (Mar 22, 2009)

Here's a video of two amateur fat guys having a boxing match.





 
Notice how many step through punches you see? I thought those never happened.


-Rob


----------



## geezer (Mar 22, 2009)

I'd be careful making assumptions based on appearance alone. I'm pretty fit for an old guy, but to be honest, I'm not that tough. One of my instructors, by comparison, has let himself go, and frankly, is pretty fat. ...And short. ...And powerful. ...And _damned fast_. Now if someone is _morbidly obese_, that's bound to affect their abilities. But otherwise, I wouldn't _assume_ anything. You could be knocked out before the fat guy, _or girl_, gets out of breath!


----------



## Aiki Lee (Mar 22, 2009)

I used to train with a man in To Shin Do who was a LARGE individual. He didn't move at lightning speeds, but his movement didn't seem any slower than anyone else. I think fat people can fight as effectively as anyone else, just perhaps not as long.

One thing though was during bo practice he would snap peoples oak bo in half when he hit them, because he used his entire body weight. One strike from him was enough to kill a man I think.


----------



## Thems Fighting Words (Mar 22, 2009)

It all comes down to what you define as fat. If you're talking about a morbidly obese individual who has problems walking up steps, then I'd say, run up some steps and you're safe. However if we're talking about carrying a bit of extra weight (BMI of 25 to 30), then that's different. That extra layer of fat (especially around the gut) can be highly effective against strikes and bladed weapons. About a year or so back, some guy here in Oz got attacked by a chainsaw. He survived only because of his beer-gut. So as others have said, target the legs. Those legs are already under extra pressure from the excess weight. Even if they don't fall down, it makes running away easier.


----------



## Deaf Smith (Mar 22, 2009)

Thesemindz,

The strategy to defeat weight-challenged people is a simple one. It's almost the same one a motorcycle uses to defeat a car.

Maneuver till you have a narrow passage way or obstacle they have to go through, or over. It can be between parked cars, doorways, between chairs, sofas, tables. It may be forcing them to go or around over street curbs, fire hydrants, lamps, etc

Then strike for the eyes and throat. Kick for the legs (remember, those knees have to support an awful lot of weight.) No use punching them in the gut, so go for things like their hair. Stomp their feet (I bet they cant move them out of the way fast either.)

Deaf


----------



## shesulsa (Mar 22, 2009)

I posted this in someone's rep here, but thought I'd put it out there right here and echo what Brian VanCise said.  I've met some very dangerous heavy people. They are not dangerous just because they are large, but because these particular people were *skilled.*

Omar, you might gain a little respect for adipose tissue once it kicks you squarely in the butt. :lol2:


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 22, 2009)

Take a look at this:

http://www.yahoo.com/s/1047419

The USArmy is claiming that since 2005 it has turned away more "kids" between the ages of 17-24 due to not being able to make the Army weight standards than the entire force currently serving in Afghanistan. Thats over 48,000 "To Fat to Serve" Americans. This story states that 1 in 5 of all Americans able to serve are overweight.


----------



## Thesemindz (Mar 22, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> I posted this in someone's rep here, but thought I'd put it out there right here and echo what Brian VanCise said. I've met some very dangerous heavy people. They are not dangerous just because they are large, but because these particular people were *skilled.*
> 
> Omar, you might gain a little respect for adipose tissue once it kicks you squarely in the butt. :lol2:


 
I had a brown belt years ago we called "the giant." He was only 17, but he weighed over three hundred pounds, and was over six and a half feet tall.

During sparring class one night, he caught me in the thigh with a spin rear kick and I collapsed. I thought at first my leg was broken. I didn't stop fighting, instead I grabbed his ankles and took him down and mounted him and started pounding away. I still couldn't walk right for two weeks though.

During another class, he caught another brown belt in the face with a hook punch and shattered his cheek bone. The guy needed to get half his face rebuilt with wire frame. At that point we had to tell the guy he couldn't spar anymore. It was just too dangerous.

It wasn't that he didn't have control. It wasn't that he was sloppy. It was that he was strong and so heavy, that one strike could crush one of his opponents.

Don't forget that that big fat sloppy looking guy may only need to land one lucky shot to take you out of the fight. 

Permanently.


-Rob


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 22, 2009)

Fighting ability aside. It will kill you quicker in the long run health wise. Id hesitate before allowing "I can fight better than a skinny guy" thoughts to derail any effort to slim down.


----------



## Thesemindz (Mar 22, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Fighting ability aside. It will kill you quicker in the long run health wise. Id hesitate before allowing "I can fight better than a skinny guy" thoughts to derail any effort to slim down.


 
I don't think anyone's advocating that.

I think everyone agrees that being thinner and more fit is always better than being fatter and less fit. I'm just asking what other people have observed about _fighting_ fat people.


-Rob


----------



## Ronin74 (Mar 22, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Fighting ability aside. It will kill you quicker in the long run health wise. Id hesitate before allowing "I can fight better than a skinny guy" thoughts to derail any effort to slim down.


I have to agree with that. I myself am overweight, but I can still move. However, that's not going to stop me from getting down to my ideal weight.

I have a friend who used to teach Shotokan who, at 6' packs about 300 lbs, most of which is muscle. However, it's very clear how much stress that weight puts on his heart. He can hit hard and fast, but if the situation is prolonged, you can clearly hear how hard his breathing becomes, and he ALWAYS has to sit down between every few rounds of sparring.


----------



## Ronin74 (Mar 22, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> I don't think anyone's advocating that.
> 
> I think everyone agrees that being thinner and more fit is always better than being fatter and less fit. I'm just asking what other people have observed about _fighting_ fat people.
> 
> ...


Going back to that, if by fat you mean morbidly obese, and in a self-defense situation, I'd say the legs make the best target. There's already the stress of carrying that weight, so pushing that stress over the limit should be enough. Otherwise, running away and getting them gassed out is the ideal.

I'd have to agree with Deaf Smith that a gut shot would not be best since that's there center of gravity and it's coming in fast (at least for them). It's not to say that it won't work to hit an obese person in the gut. However, I myself have only done it in sparring and knocked some air out, where they're not necessarily charging at me. In a self-defense situation, it's sort of like trying to stop a semi-truck head on with a Honda Civic.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 22, 2009)

I'm pretty fat, though I am struggling to lose the weight.  And of course, as a newbie to MA, I'm not claiming to have any real insight, other than that of being a fat guy who spars.   Couple thoughts.

First, my legs are STRONG.  They're like oak trees.  You won't do much with your wiry strong legs kicking at my monsters.  Oh, it's going to hurt, sure, but you're not likely to get through that muscle to do any real damage.  Those legs have been carrying our gigantic butts around for a long time, lots of exercise.  My calves ain't calves, they's the whole bull.

Second, our kicks are liable to be low and slow but powerful. Easy to evade, but not easy to trap - unless you're significantly shorter than we are.  However, watch out for sweeps - we have so much mass going for us, we can take you off what you think is a stable position if we get a good angle on you.

Third, the key to taking down a fat man is balance.  We have a much harder time centering ourselves, and we overbalance easily.  Recovery is slow from an off-balance position - that's minor muscle groups trying to stabilize a top-heavy load that they're not used to trying to control quickly.  Trap a punch and pull it to your waist and step back, we go over towards you.  Then you can take the legs right out, or just pull sharply and let us fall.

And for those who think the belly is a good target - you might want to reconsider that one.  I have a huge gut - and it is rock hard.  I do situps and pushups until I want to die.  I don't have the six-pack, I have the entire keg.  My fat is literally UNDER the muscle layer.  You're not likely to get much from me with a nukite to the gut except jammed fingers.

A couple more targets on a fat man - the flab grab-and-twist under the arms, and the nerve strikes under the armpits - fat there does not do much to protect those areas from a nerve stike (trust me on this).  The spare tire flab twist can also be effective if the guy has a significant one.


----------



## jarrod (Mar 23, 2009)

as an aside, i just wanted to toss this info out for our overweight members: the low-carb thing is no joke.  i've lost ten pounds in about two weeks by eating bacon, bbq ribs, string cheese, & corned beef brisket.  just make sure you eat your fruits & veggies or else you won't poop.  i still eat junk carbs one or two days a week.  pretty easy diet, imo.

jf


----------



## Raynac (Mar 23, 2009)

hmmm well Im not sure what to argue for an experienced martial art fighter, but I have found when sparring with inexperienced fat people (of course i was only one belt higher myself) that speed and balance were their weak points. 

the one i fought had madly powerful kicks, simply put he had the body weight to throw into them that i could never muster, and he knew he was good at kicks so he tended to favor them, and i used that to my advantage (i like fast shots followed by a retreat) when I saw a kick coming i either jumped out of the way then counter attacked, or charged right into his body while he was on one leg, knocking him over.


now that I'm studying to-shin do I have to say I love training with the larger individuals, because being a smaller individual myself (just under 5'6" at 123 lbs) when I do a technique on a fat person I really learn how to do the technique, because there is no way im going to move them unless I do. and when I do complete the technique I can really feel that accomplishment.


----------



## Raynac (Mar 23, 2009)

jarrod said:


> as an aside, i just wanted to toss this info out for our overweight members: the low-carb thing is no joke. i've lost ten pounds in about two weeks by *eating bacon, bbq ribs, string cheese, & corned beef brisket*. just make sure you eat your fruits & veggies or else you won't poop. i still eat junk carbs one or two days a week. pretty easy diet, imo.
> 
> jf


 
=o i hope you get alot of veggies in there, Im not sure your hearts gonna thank you for the rest of that diet.


----------



## Akira (Mar 23, 2009)

As far as tactics, I weigh 70kgs and my mate weighs 120kgs. When we're sparring I can easily put him down with leg kicks (I train muay thai), and also by manipulating him into thinking I'm doing a different technique to what I'm doing. Lift my right leg up then quickly throw a left kick for example. I have to stay out of his range though, until I'm ready to attack because a couple of times he's grabbed me and lifted me above his big fat head. 

Also the few fat people I've sparred have hit hard, but they do move a lot slower and it is easier to dodge their punches and move around the ring. Get out of the way, and wait for an opening. Easy.


----------



## jarrod (Mar 23, 2009)

Raynac said:


> =o i hope you get alot of veggies in there, Im not sure your hearts gonna thank you for the rest of that diet.


 

i do get a lot of veggies & fruit, that's just good advice for any diet.  i was worried about cholesterol too when i first heard about low-carb dieting, but it actually has been shown to lower your cholesterol:

http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/faq/f/carbcholesterol.htm

jfhttp://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,384362,00.html


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 23, 2009)

jarrod said:


> i do get a lot of veggies & fruit, that's just good advice for any diet. i was worried about cholesterol too when i first heard about low-carb dieting, but it actually has been shown to lower your cholesterol:
> 
> http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/faq/f/carbcholesterol.htm
> 
> jf


 
And the role of dietary fat and cholesterol in health and heart disease has been undergoing some major scrutiny lately. Some docs are now saying that our current belief regarding them isnt necessarialy true.

http://www.healthymuslim.com/articl...rt-hypothesis-what-if-bad-fat-isnt-so-bad.cfm

http://www.healthymuslim.com/articles/fxusv-the-big-fat-con-saturated-fat-and-cholesterol.cfm

Go figure.

Its the high volume of carbs (mostly crap carbs), lack of exercise and carrying too much bodyfat for too much of your life that will "get ya".


----------



## Thems Fighting Words (Mar 23, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> First, my legs are STRONG.  They're like oak trees.  You won't do much with your wiry strong legs kicking at my monsters.  Oh, it's going to hurt, sure, but you're not likely to get through that muscle to do any real damage.  Those legs have been carrying our gigantic butts around for a long time, lots of exercise.  My calves ain't calves, they's the whole bull.



Ah, see here's the thing. Your legs are large because of muscle as opposed to jelly. I've trained with power lifters and although they looked fat, they had a ton of muscle. So even though their BMI was very high (some in the 35 to 40 category), the fat layer was merely the surface and under it there was a ton of muscle. I've also trained with guys who were blob legged and a few hits to the legs and they lost all mobility and balance.
I think people need to define what they mean by fat. Cus even though I myself just used it in a previous post, the BMI index is not always the best measure.


----------



## jarrod (Mar 23, 2009)

also the trick is to kick the knee, not the thigh.  which is a good SD tech whoever you're fighting.  overweight people often have strong muscles but weak joints from carrying excess weight.

jf


----------



## Andy Moynihan (Mar 23, 2009)

You need to take out a big tree, you chop at its base.


----------



## searcher (Mar 23, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> You need to take out a big tree, you chop at its base.


 

Agreed!!!     Take it out with a nice side kick to the knee.


----------



## Drac (Mar 23, 2009)

Flea said:


> Honestly, it never dawned on me that delivery people could be targets for robbery.


 
That was a big problem up here a few years ago...


----------



## KempoGuy06 (Mar 23, 2009)

Im fat (I think so, other people dont). 6'4" about 250lbs. not fast but with long legs i can cover short distances very quickly.  I have a lot of endurance which surprises my skinny sparring partners a lot when we got hard. I also have a lot of strength and i use this to my advantage when rolling with people. My size, weight and strength make for a good combo. that being said, the people ive got with that are bigger and stronger i cant rely on that and have to use what little speed advantage over them that i have

B


----------



## Drac (Mar 23, 2009)

A number of BG's were really shocked at just how fast this fat cop could sprint...When a couple of  the BG's challenged me I usually ask them if they wanna have to tell their homies that some fat cop kicked their butt..


----------



## Stac3y (Mar 23, 2009)

I frequently spar (light to moderate contact point) with people who outweigh me by 50 or more pounds. From a point sparring standpoint, I find that bigger torsos are easier to score on (more target area; harder to block effectively). Opponents who are actually fat (as opposed to just being big--I regularly spar a woman who's close to 6 feet and sturdy, but not fat) tend not to be able to get their kicks up, so they go for the groin a lot, and some of them have really developed their punching skills to make up for that, too. 

I'm not fast (being kinda old and kinda rickety), so I don't have that advantage, and a heavier opponent can really put some power behind a punch or low kick. So I try to wait for an attack and kick them as they come in. Bigger opponents who can kick to the head or upper body are harder to deal with since they are stronger and harder to block--if you don't get the angle right, their kicks and strikes can push right past a block that would deflect a technique coming from a weaker opponent.

I realize this doesn't speak to the OP, since it was more about self defense, but thought it might be of interest.


----------



## BrandonLucas (Mar 23, 2009)

I'm a big fella.  I'm 6'1", 280lbs...(down from 323 lbs on Jan 1st, thank you), and I know how to use every ounce.

Bill's post is honestly how I think of things too.  I'm actually pretty darn fast to be my size, but it's mostly because I'm a person with a large structure.

What everyone so far has said about defining what fat is is spot on.  I'm not morbidly obese, but I still need to lose quite a few pounds.  I have no trouble running up and down stairs.

Without giving too much away about myself here, I can tell you that leg attacks are not going to affect me much, even to the knee, unless you have tree trunk legs or have an actual weapon.  Attacks to my midsection are the same way.

Everyone is made the same, regardless of size.  Sometimes leg attacks work, sometimes joint attacks work, but throat, eye, and ear attacks always work.  The fattest man in the world, even with 7 chins, can't take a well placed chop to the throat.  Nor could he stand to have his eyes raked or ears popped.

Fighting a fat person is just the same as fighting anyone else.  Your technique is not going to be the same from fighter to fighter, even if they all weigh the same.  Their size is just a part of the equation.  Adapt and fight a smart fight.

To Omar:

I generally tend to agree with alot of your posts, but the whole fatty post you made really disappointed me.  I realize that this really isn't going to make a difference in your life one way or another that I've been disappointed in your post, but consider this:

You may be skinny now, but you may not always stay that way.  Then again, you may just stay skinny.  But you may one day have to lump yourself in with the group that you badmouth so freely here, so you may want to rethink some of your thought processes.  

Try to respect everyone, regardless of size.  After all, I still respect you, even though your posts on this thread teeter on the brink of being moronic.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Mar 23, 2009)

I know a number of photographers who photograph "less than Barbie" types. They do great work, and in most cases the shots are done quite well. Mind you, these aren't hobbyists, but published, respected expert professionals. Leonard Nimoy also did his own take, the Full Figure Project. I've chatted with one of the gals he shot, she's a sweetheart. So, while being over weight can be something that one finds unappealing, just because someone is overweight, it doesn't make them stupid.  Hell, the one cashier I had at Wendy's was the living embodiment of "Fat Albert" (yeah, black, red shirt, even did a hey hey hey.) He was the one who got my order perfect btw.  The little hottie I ran in to next time had left her braincell in the car that day.

But I don't think this is the place to discuss that. This is in the Self Defense area.
Health and Beauty aspects are probably best discussed in the Health area.

So, lets discuss Self Defense.

Larger people tend to move slower, react slower, and have to move farther to avoid an attack.

They can however bring more "backup mass", hit harder, and often absorb a bit more punishment due to a larger body mass.

Endurance, is a toss up.  A sumo can have great endurance. "Team FatGuy" probably not.


----------



## searcher (Mar 23, 2009)

I don't know Bob, I have seen some Sumo that were flat out fast.   The rate that they exploded off the line was insane, even if they were not that size.    Then take into account that they are huge and you have a crazy, machine of destruction.

If you truly want to know how to fight a very large "fat" guy, then watch the UFC that had Keith Hackney fighting Emanual Yarburough.     He won the match, but brokehis hand in the process.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Mar 23, 2009)

I said tend to.  Sumo are trained athletes, and work on developing that.  The average Bears or Bills fan however......


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 23, 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Galento


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 23, 2009)

Sumo bouts last a matter of seconds. Sumo athletes are surprisingly flexible, powerful and agile. Their endurance beyond the 30 sec mark is questionable IMO.


----------



## Carol (Mar 23, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Galento



So HE is the one that said "I'll moida da bum"!  Thanks for that :asian: 

But back on topic.

For many of us (women), we have to take for granted that an attacker is going to be larger and heavier than we are.  Now whether that person is heavier than we are because of their musculature or whether they are heavier because of their adiposity (or some combination of the two) almost doesn't matter.  The laws of physics are not going to be working in my favor.

I would focus on staying off their centerline and getting behind the person.  One can't hit what one can't see.


----------



## BrandonLucas (Mar 23, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I said tend to. Sumo are trained athletes, and work on developing that. The average Bears or Bills fan however......


 

The problem is that it's still a generalization.  It's been my experience that the average Bears or Bills fan played football at one time in their life, and were in good enough shape to play...and while they may look like the probably shouldn't eat the nachos with extra chilli and cheese they just bought from the concession stand, I'd be willing to wager that if you took those nachos from them, you'd pay dearly, no matter how skilled of an athlete you were.

It goes back to the basic rule of combat, that even Sun Tzu listed in "The Art of War"...

Never underestimate your opponent.

If you happen to fight a person who is overweight or just plain out fat, then adjust the same way you would if you fought more than one opponent, or an opponent that is considerably faster than you.

To look at me, you would think that I'm slow too...but I have always been fast for my size, before I ever stepped foot in a dojang.


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 23, 2009)

In the same way never underestimate the "little guy' either. In the long run though its my opinion that a leaner (lean doesn't mean skinny) person is fitter, healthier and has an athletic advantage over the "fatter" person. In the "battle of life" your health is far more important than your martial abilities.


----------



## BrandonLucas (Mar 23, 2009)

Exactly.  That's where I was going with that.  Anyone can be a threat in a fight situation, no matter what size, shape, or how fast or slow they are.

Just be prepared.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 23, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> In the "battle of life" your health is far more important than your martial abilities.



Happiness matters too.  I don't like broccoli and never will.  I won't eat it.  Not even for an extra decade.  And the same goes for all broccoli's evil green cousins.  That's not food, that's what food eats.  I like my food to have had a face on it.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Mar 23, 2009)

.


----------



## blindsage (Mar 23, 2009)

Back when I was younger and skinnier and was training in Kyokushinkai there was this very overweight brown belt that helped teach some of the classes. He wasn't very tall, maybe 5' 7", and he was round, not just a little overweight, but very round. He wasn't fast, and he was strong but not especially so, but what he had going for him was skill. His defensive skills were phenomenal, practically impossible to get through, even for much faster and/or stronger guys. He was truly impressive.

On another note. I'm a bigger guy now, 6' 240lbs. and working on getting back into shape. But even being out of shape I'm solid all around, just with extra around the middle. Strong legs, strong abs, and weight is distributed very proportianally. And I'm still fast. I've always been fast on hand an foot technique, and I just started playing soccer again to have some cardio and some of my teammates were suprised that I could keep up with the other team's forwards while I was playing defense. 

Now, I'm seriously (no, seriously) not saying this to say I'm a badass or anything, but both comments are to reinforce the point made by a couple others, not to underestimate your opponent because they're overweight, or appear out of shape.


----------



## terryl965 (Mar 23, 2009)

I will only speak for myself, I am 5'9" tall and I wiegh about 240 right now and in a fight I am quick ask those that have been sparring against me. The bad news is I cannot go forever like some smaller type but the problem is can the smaller type take all the mass I put behind each technique, if they cannot then it is game over if they can then I would be in a little trouble. So big people can move just not a marathon.


----------



## MJS (Mar 23, 2009)

Thats nice...typed my reply and lost it.  Lets try again...

I'm thinking back to an early UFC with Marco Ruas and Paul Varelans.  Ruas chopped away at Pauls leg and eventually wore him down enough to the point where Paul fell to the mat.  I think that regardless of the conditioning of the leg, it'll eventually wear the person down.  As far as the knee goes...well, any time thats discussed, it usually ends up in a debate as to whether or not it'll actually work.  However, I'm not going to discard either spot.  I think that many times, people look for the one shot, and I'm personally not a fan of that mentality.  Not saying it can't happen, but I'm not always banking on it.  

I like to look at a target as a setup for my next shot, followed by the next shot, followed by the next, and so on.


----------



## BrandonLucas (Mar 23, 2009)

Just to clarify, I'm certainly not discrediting leg shots as being effective.  I will say that even the skinniest guy on the planet can chop away at my legs and they will eventually get tired of being kicked.

But that would mean that I allowed it to happen.  My goal in a fight is to put the other guy out of commission before he can inflict enough physical harm to me that I won't be able to continue.

If someone were to kick me in the leg once, then score a point for them, they started on their game plan.  If they kick me in the leg twice, well, they may have been able to sneak that one in.  More than twice in a real fight situation, then I deserve the beating that I'm about to receive.

I agree that one shot leg kicks aren't a realistic solution, and that it takes time to wear down the legs, especially on someone larger than you.  Your goal is the same as my goal in a fight...it all comes down to conditioning and skill on the part of both opponents, among other variable aspects.  That's the beauty of fighting...it's truly unpredictable.  Sometimes the outcome may be obvious, but most of the time, reaching the outcome has a few surpises in store.

Regarding the lifestyle thing Bill Mattocks is talking about...he's right and has a point...if he's fine with being larger, then that's up to him.

I can tell you this, though...I was the same way a year ago.  I didn't care about losing weight.  I was fine being 320+ lbs, and I wasn't going to sacrifice my pleasure of eating what I wanted just to suit what someone tells me I should eat.  That all changed, though, when I discovered I was going to be a father, and I decided I wanted to be able to keep up with my girls when they get to the age that they can run around.

I started losing weight on Jan 1, and I haven't looked back.  I can honestly say that I feel better all around.  I wish I could say I looked better, but losing weight only gets you so far in that department...haha...

But the point is that there's a difference in how I felt then and now.  My attitude still hasn't changed, because I accept who I am, and I'm proud of who I am.  But I also accept that I have to change part of who I am, at least so I can provide a better life for my daughters.  I've found that I'm much happier now than I was a year ago, and I attribute it greatly to losing the weight I've lost.  I'm able to do more that I like to do, and I have made sacrifices that I can live with regarding food.

I'm not preaching, and I hope that's not how this post comes across...nor am I bragging...I'm just trying to play devil's advocate on both sides, I guess.  Just take a look at what makes you happy, and try to decide how long it's going to make you happy.  I, myself, would prefer to stay happy for as long as I possibly can.


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 23, 2009)

Devils Advocate...Sometimes I wonder where "my health is my business" begins and ends when my heath insurance rates increase due to nationwide obesity and smoking habits. Likewise, my family would be drastically impacted if I died at 50 of a coronary.


----------



## Carol (Mar 23, 2009)

Neither has anything to do with fighting an overweight person, which is what this thread is about.


----------



## Thems Fighting Words (Mar 23, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> All joking aside, I eat what I want.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is a martial arts forum and I was merely stating a generally accepted tip to maintaining peak performance for most styles. I wasn't telling you to undertake said diet, it was advise to the general readership. I hope you found no offense in my post for that was not my intention.



Carol Kaur said:


> Neither has anything to do with fighting an overweight person, which is what this thread is about.


You're right, this topic has strayed somewhat but such things happen. So my advise is pretty much the same as everybody else's, tactics depend on individuals and it is dangerous to make assumptions based on stereo-types.


----------



## Andy Moynihan (Mar 23, 2009)

I like leg and neck attacks.


----------



## Wishbone (Mar 23, 2009)

Just throw a sandwich at them.  Doesn't even have to be fresh with today's economy.


----------



## Thesemindz (Mar 23, 2009)

Wishbone said:


> Just throw a sandwich at them. Doesn't even have to be fresh with today's economy.


 
Like I can afford to throw a sandwich away in today's economy.


-Rob


----------



## Wishbone (Mar 23, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> Like I can afford to throw a sandwich away in today's economy.
> 
> 
> -Rob



True, but the thread didn't specify the financial situation of the defender.  If you can afford to take martial arts I'm presuming you can afford a hamburger off of McDonald's dollar value menu.  Just keep it in a plastic baggie that is sealed and replace once a month.  The watery eyed cows won't know what hit them, they'll just know it's edible.


----------



## Thesemindz (Mar 23, 2009)

Wishbone said:


> True, but the thread didn't specify the financial situation of the defender. If you can afford to take martial arts I'm presuming you can afford a hamburger off of McDonald's dollar value menu. Just keep it in a plastic baggie that is sealed and replace once a month. The watery eyed cows won't know what hit them, they'll just know it's edible.


 
Wow.


-Rob


----------



## Andy Moynihan (Mar 23, 2009)

I'm not the world's biggest fan of strikes to the midsection on overweight folks, it's too much a hit-or-miss proposition.


----------



## Andy Moynihan (Mar 23, 2009)

I do, however, sometimes find that the excess weight raises their center of gravity such that it is easier to pull them off balance.


----------



## Carol (Mar 23, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> I will only speak for myself, I am 5'9" tall and I wiegh about 240 right now and in a fight I am quick ask those that have been sparring against me. The bad news is I cannot go forever like some smaller type but the problem is can the smaller type take all the mass I put behind each technique, if they cannot then it is game over if they can then I would be in a little trouble. So big people can move just not a marathon.



Actually Terry I do know of an overweight person that runs marathons - literally.  

I was chatting at work with a colleague who is a die-hard runner.  I mentioned my overweight friend and admitted that I was a little surprised because I didn't normally associate that sort of body type with being a marathon runner.  My colleague just shrugged and said that running a marathon was not just about physical conditioning, but also about state of mind...and followed up by saying that he too had run marathons with folks of heavier stature.  

Which...is another reason to never underestimate your attacker.


----------



## Andy Moynihan (Mar 23, 2009)

Thing to remember is overweight people also have extra weight to throw into their blows. George Foreman after his comeback often looked like he was fighting while wearing a 30 pound donut around his middle, but do you seriously think he'd have any trouble knocking out Mr. Universe? Exactly.


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 23, 2009)

My intention was not to criticize or put down the overweight. Just to express that someones health should take precident over martial concerns.

Fighting someone "larger" is the same regardless of the reason for the size difference (larger stature or overweight) IMO. Most of the time you will want to concentrate on striking vs grappling. I have found that controlling the head can disturb the balance of a larger opponent more easily than trying to deal with limbs.


----------



## exile (Mar 23, 2009)

_*Moderator warning:*_

Please address your responses to the OP topic itself. Anyone who wishes to pursue the question of what kinds of judgments of others are legitimate, under what circumstance, etc. is welcome to start a thread specifically on that topic, but the current thread is about a particular SD problem posed by antagonists with certain physical characteristics. Off-topic posts and extended exchanges are not productive and will bring intervention by Staff if they continue.

Bob Levine
MT Senior Moderator


----------



## exile (Mar 24, 2009)

*Mod Notice of Thread Split:*

In view of serious thread drift in the original 'Let's talk about fat people' thread, it has been decided to split that discussion into this one, devoted to the topic identified in the OP as the set of combat problems posed by seriously large/fat antagonists, and a separate thread, Being overweight, judging overweight, judging others generally..., devoted to the issues in the thread title. As always, participants in either thread are expected to comply with MT's TOS rules requiring civility and basic courtesy in discussions in our fora. Your cooperation is much appreciated!


----------



## Ironcrane (Mar 24, 2009)

The last time I was at my Judo school a couple of months ago, there was a really big guy that showed up there. He had a black belt of his own, and when doing randori, no one was able to throw him. His big gut kept everyone from being able to close in on him for a throw, and his legs were to short for anyone to be able to sweep him very well. And added to that, he was $%*#&%^ fast! He nailed everyone he worked with, with a couple of throws I didn't recognize.
I was kinda glad I didn't do any randori against him. He might have drove me straight through the ground.


----------



## David43515 (Mar 24, 2009)

People can be suprisingly fast, and frighteningly strong and still be fat. Those are the two things people most often say about me when we spar.  When I was in my 20`s I got easily intimidated  the first time I sparred the new guy with the broad shoulders and the six-pack abs....until I found out that I could run circles around him because he was a heavy smoker. Nowadays my wind is like his, but I`ve learned to fight quick and mean so I don`t need to have much wind.

The biggest thing I`ve lost is flexability. Most fat people are strong and may be fast in short bursts. Think of the college or pro football player who runs and runs in practice and _still has a big gut. But we tend to be stiff. Keep your distance and don`t let us work you into a corner. Try to manuver objects in between us and you. Sweeps and foot traps combined with a push against our stance intergrity will help you *alot *if you have to close with us. If you try to go for a double-leg take down.....I`m gonna sprawl and use you to carry all my weight while I rip my leg out of your arms and the knee you into unconcsiousness._


----------



## Ronin74 (Mar 24, 2009)

Ironcrane said:


> The last time I was at my Judo school a couple of months ago, there was a really big guy that showed up there. He had a black belt of his own, and when doing randori, no one was able to throw him. His big gut kept everyone from being able to close in on him for a throw, and his legs were to short for anyone to be able to sweep him very well. And added to that, he was $%*#&%^ fast! He nailed everyone he worked with, with a couple of throws I didn't recognize.
> I was kinda glad I didn't do any randori against him. He might have drove me straight through the ground.


I can relate. When I did Kenpo, we were working on self defense techniques from a two-handed grab to the collar, and I was the smallest guy in our group (I'm only 5'5") and the rest of the guys were at least 5'9" and up. One particular guy I remember working with was a guy named Tim, who was a pretty big guy, probably about 6'. He worked in construction, so he had a grip like vice clamps- and I was flipping burgers... lol. Physically, he looked like a big guy with a big gut, but his strength was solid.

In any case, I could not break his grip on the first of several tries. It wasn't until our teacher realized the dilema in our group that he had me adapt the technique to my size difference. What ended up happening was I had to drop my center of gravity to get him off balance, and within arms reach, so that a strike to the nose would be my first attempt at breaking his grip. If not, I was in a position to apply an armbar of some sort. Otherwise, it was like trying to budge a rhino- they'll only move when they're ready to, and that's when you look out.

Now as far as sparring went? Let's just say he knew how to put that weight behind his strikes.


----------



## Kacey (Mar 25, 2009)

I have the same answer to this topic that I do to any other discussion of "what do you do it 'X' situation" - it depends on the situation.  I've known people who were properly sized according to various charts/standards/etc. who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, and I've known people who were visibly overweight - even obese - who have skills such that attackers can't get in on them.  There are no absolutes - only generalities.  Yes, _in general_, overweight people are going to have different vulnerabilities and weaknesses than people of average weight - as will people who are underweight.  But each situation needs to be judged on its own; relying on generalities will backfire sooner or later... often sooner.


----------



## Deaf Smith (Mar 25, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Which...is another reason to never underestimate your attacker.


 
And how. Anyone remember Sammo Hung? One real supprising martial artist (and actor.)

Deaf


----------



## redantstyle (Mar 25, 2009)

beware the buddha belly.

it can be one mean *** c.o.g.*




*center of gravity


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 26, 2009)

I haven't read all six pages, so if what I am about to touch on has already been said, my apologies.

I have trained with people of varying heights, weights, and builds, and each presents their own unique challenge. Being tall, lean, and having a fairly high center of gravity (I am long legged and short torsoed), I have advantages and disadvantages against different sizes and builds.

Since we're talking about overweight people here, I'll address that. 

*In hapkido:* When throwing an overweight person, the extra weight does make it more challenging. At my height, I have to generally lower myself quite a bit in order to get my center of gravity low enough to effectively throw them. A shorter than myself and stout person I am more inclined to lock and bear to the ground than to even attempt to throw them.

The advantage that they have is that they're already lower than me and have a built in physical advantage in a throw. The only thing in my favor is that I'm long enough that if they're not careful, they don't throw me, but simply lean me over a bit. We don't do competition in hapkido, but we do some live free play. I tend to keep the shorter, stouter people from getting their hands on me because once they do, I can easily wind up having the disadvantage. 

If the overweight person in question is a lady with any strength, her advantage is greater in regards to throwing and being hard to throw, as ladies generally have a lower center of gravity than us gents, even when the height is the same. 

*In Taekwondo:* being overweight means more torso to guard, but since your arms don't gain any length by being overweight, you don't really have any added measure to guard with. Since grappling isn't a part of taekwondo, in competition, an oveweight person is generally at a disadvantage, all things being equal. Since the added weight is fat, it moves them into a weight class that they wouldn't otherwise be in. A five'eight guy against a 6'4 guy in the same weight class and close in weight means that either the tall guy is way underweight (I'm not), the shorter guy is Franco Columbu, or he's obese. Since I have yet to spar or compete against any five-eight guys who were Franco Columbu clones, that leaves one option. 

The last time I sparred with an overweight gent who was roughly five eight, I had torso shots galore, wore him down, then had head shots galore. His weight kept him from being able to work any angles to get inside of my guard, so I wound up just picking him apart from a distance, and pretty much at my leisure. 

*In Kendo: *Provided an overweight person's mobility is pretty reasonable, the only thing that they have to be concerned with is endurance. Good management of energy pretty much solves this so long as the person is not in poor health.

No real advantages or disadvantages for the extra weight in kendo. Probably the only real disadvantage _may_ be in buying gear if the person is exceptionally heavy.

*Important:* I think that it is worth noting that _*contrary to popular belief*_, not all overweight people are in poor health, out of breath, or slow. I've trained with some 'fat' guys who were unbelievably quick, very strong, and who had more than the average amount of endurance. There are some heavier ladies that I have trained with who are exceptionally good and used their build to great advantage. This may be the overweight person's biggest advantage: underestimation on the part of opponents. Don't think that an overweight opponent is easy pickings.

Whatever build you are, be it tall and thin, short and stout, tall and stout, or average, the key is to train to maximize your build's strengths and to guard against your build's inherent disadvantages. 

Cardio health is the biggest pitfall for an overweight person, but in general, the extra mass does provide extra protection for bones and vital organs, if for no other reason than that it absorbs some of the shock. Somewhere in there is a trade off.

Daniel


----------



## BrandonLucas (Mar 26, 2009)

Just to put this out there...

We sparred in class last night.  I sparred a guy who lifts weights like it's a relegion, and he works on a farm, so he's no slouch.  He's a red belt, and has pretty good technique, for the most part.  He's very fast and agile, and has great stamina...at roughly 5'10", and I would say about 185, he can be an intimidating opponent.

Except when he doesn't keep his hands up.

I'm 6'1", 280 lbs, and I have ok flexibility.  I can kick my opponents in the head, generally with roundhouse or axe kicks, and I have really good reaction time.

To compare the 2 of us, it's pretty obvious who's in better physical conditioning.

And yet, the red belt tried to target my gut, which appears to be the least guarded part of my body, with a back leg roundhouse kick.  I blocked the kick and quickly countered with an axe kick...to his nose.  We had only been sparring for about 45 seconds...we had to end the match.

Appearances aren't everything.  Like I said, I look big and slow, but I'm faster than I look.  So are many other people my size and larger.

By the same token, smaller guys often pack far more of a punch than you realize.

Sylo, who posts on here from time to time, comes to class with me...he's the same height as I am, but he weighs about 175lbs.  He's lanky and fast...and he lets you know when he hits you.  I would dare say he hits harder than the other red belt.


----------



## Drac (Mar 26, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> And how. Anyone remember Sammo Hung? One real supprising martial artist (and actor.)
> 
> Deaf


 
Heres a line I used on one of my cop buddies when he saw me after the weight gain when I quit smoking..

Big Mike: " Well ya sure dont look like Bruce Lee anymore."

Me: "No I dont..I'm now Sammo Hung.."


----------

