# Females and groundfighting



## girlbug2 (Sep 19, 2008)

Now that I have started Level 2 training in Krav Maga, there is a definite increase in the focus on groundfighting. In class last week we did a drill where you sit back to back with your partner and "go". Talking with the other female students, I realized how we all felt like fish out of water in this area of self defense. 

My friend mentioned how weird it was that the male students seemed to "just know" what to do on the ground, and we females were kind of lost without step by step instructions. Nothing in my previous EPAK training prepared me for this. I thought about my two boys and how they play wrestled eachother to the ground regularly (okay, sometimes it's not play). Remembering my own childhood, my sisters and I_ never_ wrestled. My friend commented to one of the guys, "wrestling is kind of how you guys say Hi."

So I don't know if it's nature or nurture, but I need help overcoming the psychological barrier I seem to have about fighting on the ground.  It's weird and scary to me, but I also realize that that is precisely why I need to learn it. I can't pick and choose where and how I am attacked.

Also, is there anything I can do outside of class that would help?


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## MA-Caver (Sep 19, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> Now that I have started Level 2 training in Krav Maga, there is a definite increase in the focus on groundfighting. In class last week we did a drill where you sit back to back with your partner and "go". Talking with the other female students, I realized how we all felt like fish out of water in this area of self defense.
> 
> My friend mentioned how weird it was that the male students seemed to "just know" what to do on the ground, and we females were kind of lost without step by step instructions. Nothing in my previous EPAK training prepared me for this. I thought about my two boys and how they play wrestled eachother to the ground regularly (okay, sometimes it's not play). Remembering my own childhood, my sisters and I_ never_ wrestled. My friend commented to one of the guys, "wrestling is kind of how you guys say Hi."
> 
> ...


 Brain train for one thing and viewing the ground fighting as a sort of "rape prevention" lessons. If you have a S.O. then by all means train with them at home... might not get much done once you two get started or he won't take it too seriously but then you could practice umm... resisting :lol: makes things a bit fun, but still learning because he (if he isn't a classmate) won't do things the way they do at the dojo, thus you find that this particular move might (or might not) work. 

Yes, wrestling is a way for us boys to say hi. But mostly the handshake speaks volumes about who we are. Like dogs sniffing butts.


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## jarrod (Sep 19, 2008)

well, you have sons who like to wrestle, wrestle with them!  my mom & i used to have an annual birthday wrestling match.  just because she was in her 50s didn't mean she wasn't still scrappy.  really though, i think wrestling with your boys will help, plus they will love it.  you'd be the coolest mom ever.

jf


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## Empty Hands (Sep 19, 2008)

Nah, guys aren't any more _effective_ on the ground than the gals without training.  They just have more confidence and strength, which shouldn't be overlooked.  However, even when untrained guys get someone in an advantageous position, the next usual response is "Now what?!?".

As for comfort levels, the only thing which will help is to do it more.  Training with a trusted guy like an SO as suggested above is a good idea.

Since you've also trained EPAK, think about some of the techniques that involve or can be adapted to the ground.  For instance, Grasp/Grip of Death is all about getting out of headlocks, which feature prominently in groundfighting.  How can you use that previous training to your advantage?


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## girlbug2 (Sep 19, 2008)

jarrod said:


> well, you have sons who like to wrestle, wrestle with them! my mom & i used to have an annual birthday wrestling match.
> jf


 
LOL that sounds like Festivus to me! Your house must have been fun.


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## teekin (Sep 19, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Nah, guys aren't any more _effective_ on the ground than the gals without training. They just have more confidence and strength, which shouldn't be overlooked. However, even when untrained guys get someone in an advantageous position, the next usual response is "Now what?!?".
> 
> *As for comfort levels, the only thing which will help is to do it more*. Training with a trusted guy like an SO as suggested above is a good idea.
> 
> Since you've also trained EPAK, think about some of the techniques that involve or can be adapted to the ground. For instance, Grasp/Grip of Death is all about getting out of headlocks, which feature prominently in groundfighting. How can you use that previous training to your advantage?


 
Yep, I enjoy ground work with just about everybody even the guys I don't know from Adam. Some of them turn out to be great partners, some of them are jerks. The only way to get that level of ease is to push through the discomfort and roll. If it helps, see the person as a set of bones held together with tendons and ligaments at the joints. Muscles over the bones and a brain. Now, where is the best place to attack? How to do the most damage in the least time?
 Lori


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## jarrod (Sep 20, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> LOL that sounds like Festivus to me! Your house must have been fun.


 
festivus for the rest of us!  i'd say it was an interesting house more than fun.  did i mention my mom benched around 275lbs when she got into weightlifting in her 40's?

jf


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## Drac (Sep 20, 2008)

jarrod said:


> festivus for the rest of us! i'd say it was an interesting house more than fun. did i mention my mom benched around 275lbs when she got into weightlifting in her 40's?
> 
> jf


 

 A 275 bench??? Excellent....


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## lklawson (Sep 22, 2008)

You have a really good attitude.

Here's an interesting take on the idea.

http://www.peak.org/~grainne/Ironrose/lizard.html 

BTW, for SD, yes, do unarmed and particularly grappling.  But also do weapons work.  Guns, knives, and sticks mostly.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 22, 2008)

The men you train with may be more uncomfortable than you at first.  Some of the positions and hand placements in ground fighting seem to be of a personal nature and uncomfortable to any when first the learn them.  As long as all parties ar trying to learn and not get overly friendly then practice will go fine. If someone gets overly friendly break their arm or at least let them know by the pressure you apply that they will get hurt if they try again


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 22, 2008)

*Just roll with it!*






  Try to get as much instruction on the ground as you possibly can and pay attention to the small structural details. (body alignment and movement)  Treat it like the post above as rape prevention and stay focused.  Women who enjoy grappling generally become excellent overall martial practitioner's!


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## Tez3 (Sep 22, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> The men you train with may be more uncomfortable than you at first. Some of the positions and hand placements in ground fighting seem to be of a personal nature and uncomfortable to any when first the learn them. As long as all parties ar trying to learn and not get overly friendly then practice will go fine. If someone gets overly friendly break their arm or at least let them know by the pressure you apply that they will get hurt if they try again


 
I have to say this applies to men as well! Many men are apprehensive about grappling with men never mind when they have to grapple with women. I've never had or come across anyone becoming over friendly more the opposite many men as with the stand up arts can become a little shall we say 'macho' and tried to use strength rather than technique however the excellent advice given above certainly applies!
It's a rather sad fact that when teaching some men I have to apply a little more pressure than I would normally just so they know I can hurt them. 
Btw wearing a comfortable chest guard is a must, not just for protection and to save embarrassment but because it's a lovely weapon lol, another pair of pointy elbows


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## MJS (Sep 22, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> Now that I have started Level 2 training in Krav Maga, there is a definite increase in the focus on groundfighting. In class last week we did a drill where you sit back to back with your partner and "go". Talking with the other female students, I realized how we all felt like fish out of water in this area of self defense.
> 
> My friend mentioned how weird it was that the male students seemed to "just know" what to do on the ground, and we females were kind of lost without step by step instructions. Nothing in my previous EPAK training prepared me for this. I thought about my two boys and how they play wrestled eachother to the ground regularly (okay, sometimes it's not play). Remembering my own childhood, my sisters and I_ never_ wrestled. My friend commented to one of the guys, "wrestling is kind of how you guys say Hi."
> 
> ...


 
It probably is a second nature thing to many guys, so no need to feel too out of place.   My suggestion would be to get some ground work in on the side.  Things will make much more sense to you, if you have some sort of foundation to build from, rather than just jumping in and hoping that you can survive.  

Perhaps one of the KM students that has a more solid background in the ground game can work with you after/before class.  If there is a BJJ school nearby, it may be worth checking out too. 

Learning ground work can take quite some time, as there is alot to learn.  For self defense purposes, I wouldn't focus so much on learning 10 different mount escapes or guard passes.  Instead, I'd learn some quick, simple, effective things, to get yourself out of a bad position.  Learning all of the various submissions, escapes, etc., certainly isn't a bad thing, but it depends on what you're gearing your training for.  If you're doing grappling competition, then all those subs. are fine.  For SD, you don't want to spend a long time looking for a sub. but instead, looking to escape and get back to your feet.

Mike


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## Tez3 (Sep 22, 2008)

Most British guys don't wrestle around much, it's more the 'friendly' punch to the shoulder greeting with them. It's fairly hard actually to get them to grapple and wrestle. I wonder if that's because Americans do wrestling at school and we don't? Though having said that we do have rugby!


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## lklawson (Sep 22, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> The men you train with may be more uncomfortable than you at first.


Uncomfortable?  At first?

Feh.  It's downright hard to get me to work grappling with women.  I actually actively *AVOID* doing so whenever I can.

And it has nothing to do with being unconfortable about "sexual tensions" or any BS like that.  It's about a litigious society and how damn easy it is to totally thrash a man's reputation by nothing more than unfounded acusations based on anything from a newbie's lack of understanding to out-and-out vindictive meanness.

Let's just say that experience has taught me not to roll with any woman who I don't know quite well and hasn't been grappling for a fair amount of time.

And, years later now, it's still a sore subject with me, so, no, I won't ellaborate.

But just bear in mind girlbug2 that there may be any number of reasons why a man may not want to roll with you.  No, it ain't fair.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 22, 2008)

You know one of the best technical grappler's that I have ever met was a young 17 yr old lady.  Her technical skills were just phenomenal as she could never rely on strength or mass. I used to enjoy watching her take on a new alpha male guy's and surprise them again and again.


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## theletch1 (Sep 22, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> You know one of the best technical grappler's that I have ever met was a young 17 yr old lady.  Her technical skills were just phenomenal as she could never rely on strength or mass. I used to enjoy watching her take on a new alpha male guy's and surprise them again and again.


My wife is the same way.  She's small, and while strong for someone her size, can't out muscle the big guys (me included) so she's always had to work extra hard to make sure that she was technically proficient.  The result has been that she is now a phenomenal martial artist who can take care of herself without having to hit the steroids!   I've said it before in threads about women MMA fighters.  Some of the most technical fighters I've ever seen have been the women.  Almost surgical in their mindset.


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## allenjp (Sep 22, 2008)

Ya know, this is interesting in that this issue really doesn't come up in my class. Maybe because grappling is pretty much all we do, and everyone knows it from the beginning before they even start training. No one has ever seemed the least bit uncomfortable. Maybe it's because even though many times the guard drills look like having sex with clothes on to the outside viewer, we don't think of it that way becase we are all so sweaty and smelly and we are attempting to hurt each other. 

I've had guys who don't train ask me if I felt at all uncomfortable getting into those positions with other MEN, but to me, when you are there doing it that is the last thing you are going to think about.


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## livingkungfu (Sep 28, 2008)

Think about the first time you threw a punch or a kick in your Krav Maga class -- or any other fighting arts class for that matter.  Most of us girls slap fight as young girls -- we didn't scrap -- we didn't ball up our fists so it doesn't surprise me that you felt awkward on the ground.  One of the best ground training i ever did was in shoot wrestling -- Guru Dan & Paul Inosanto.  You learned how to manuever your body, relax, where to elbow, pinch, strategic finger pokes to the eyes, etc.  The most important aspect ever stressed to me as a female martial artist -- as a female in general -- is to do all things possible not to end up on the ground and when down -- get up as fast as you can.  Pinching & twisting the inside of thigh or arm is an effective technique.


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