# When Would You Respond?



## MJS (Jul 6, 2007)

There is a thread in the Horro Stories section regarding a female that was stabbed in a store.  It was about 2 min. before help was called, numerous people continued to shop, literally steppin over this poor, dying person and one even took the time to take a cell phone picture of her, for what reason, I'll never understand.

Anyway...my questions are: when exactly would you step in and aid someone?  How far would you go to offer aid?


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 6, 2007)

Ooooo difficult question. 

I have seen fights break out between two drunk, violent guys and that is not worth getting involved in. 
If you see an argument between two people, again, it is usually none of your business so turn away

If it is a member of the public being attacked, I personally would (and have) stepped in. Sometimes the odds are against you (I was beaten severely in Central London) but generally it is worth fighting the good fight

In London I had an experience where two guys approached me on pedal bikes. On guy grabbed my phone. I grabbed his mate and had him in a clinch. I was reluctant to hit him as technically he hadn't done anything (it was his mate who had done the crime). He hit me a few times although I was controlling most of his movements, and I suddenly felt numerous blows all round my body. It turned out they were part of a larger posse and had attacked me. 
The disgusting thing...? It was in the middle of a busy street next to a apacked bus stop. Most people could see exactly what was going on and that these guys had robbed me but did nothing

Now admittedly it can be hard to see what is going on sometimes - if you see a commotion/argument you are not always sure who the protagonist is. However, on this occasion it was clear to see everything that had happened. 

It was a great learning experience for me (albeit a nasty one!), and has encouraged me to make sure that I intervene when I can.

I know that each situation should be judged as it happens


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## Drac (Jul 6, 2007)

MJS said:


> There is a thread in the Horro Stories section regarding a female that was stabbed in a store. It was about 2 min. before help was called, numerous people continued to shop, literally steppin over this poor, dying person and one even took the time to take a cell phone picture of her, for what reason, I'll never understand.
> 
> Anyway...my questions are: when exactly would you step in and aid someone? How far would you go to offer aid?


 
As a First Responder I would do whatever necessary until EMS arrives...


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## LawDog (Jul 6, 2007)

Aiding someone that is in distress is a moral obligation, it should be done with out delay. If you second guess yourself someone will suffer.
:jedi1:


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## MJS (Jul 6, 2007)

I think, depending on the area, people tend to not want to get involved due to the fear of retaliation.  As a dispatcher, I take calls daily, regarding fights and drug deals.  98% of the time, those folks want to be anonymous, and I respect that.  2% will give their name and number, but they'll ask not for it to be given over the air.  They'll usually talk with a cop over the phone if more info. needs to be given, but again, the fear of retaliation is still there.  

The fear of having the victim turn on you is also present.  If I was walking to my car, saw a male and female in a physical fight, go to the male and pull him off of the female, whats to stop her from turning on me?  Now, instead of dealing with one angry person, I now have two.  

We live in a sue happy world.  A good deed on someones part could lead to issues down the road.  I could take someone out of the car in a MVA, but in the process, move the person the wrong way, causing them to never be able to walk again.  IMO, I'd rather offer my help by calling the police.  I'm not medically trained like they are, so why involve myself in something I'm not capable of doing properly?


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## Drac (Jul 6, 2007)

LawDog said:


> Aiding someone that is in distress is a moral obligation, it should be done with out delay. If you second guess yourself someone will suffer.
> :jedi1:


 
Amen brother...


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## morph4me (Jul 6, 2007)

MJS said:


> There is a thread in the Horro Stories section regarding a female that was stabbed in a store. It was about 2 min. before help was called, numerous people continued to shop, literally steppin over this poor, dying person and one even took the time to take a cell phone picture of her, for what reason, I'll never understand.
> 
> Anyway...my questions are: when exactly would you step in and aid someone? How far would you go to offer aid?


 
I can't understand how someone can see something like this happening and not get involved, even if it's only to call the police. In a store I'm sure there would  be something large and heavy enough to throw at the attacker to make him stop or at least distract him.  If I could reasonably stop the attack I would get involved immediately, if not I'd call the police immeditely. I don't think I could just watch something like that or walk away and then look at myself in the mirror without being disgusted at what I saw.


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## LawDog (Jul 6, 2007)

Many are not physically able to render assistance because of age, lack of physical strength so aiding need not be a physical thing. It can be something as simple like verbal support, getting any by-standers to join in with assistance.


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## Kacey (Jul 6, 2007)

If I saw someone in even slight need of medical assistance, I would immediately call 911, and provide any help I could.  Other situations are less clear-cut - especially given that, on various occasions, I have been told by LEOs that I _shouldn't_ do anything directly, but should just call the police - and that includes such minor things as getting noisy teens to turn their radios down when they park by my house and turn up the car stereo so they can hear it in the park across the street.


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## 14 Kempo (Jul 6, 2007)

Yes, I would definately call the police and for medical assistance. I would like to think that I would help further, but having never been in this situation, I would not know definatively how I would respond. In fact, I'd like to think I'd have disarmed and incapacitated the assailant, but every situation dictates as different response, and again, I've never been there.
However, as far as taking pictures, how about a picture of the assailant, not the victim ... gees ... get real!


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## Drac (Jul 6, 2007)

LawDog said:


> It can be something as simple like verbal support, getting any by-standers to join in with assistance.


 
Well said..Just a voice letting them know that they are not alone and help is on the way can be a great comfort...


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## 14 Kempo (Jul 6, 2007)

Drac said:


> LawDog said:
> 
> 
> > Many are not physically able to render assistance because of age, lack of physical strength so aiding need not be a physical thing. It can be something as simple like verbal support, getting any by-standers to join in with assistance.
> ...


 
I agree, well stated.


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## searcher (Jul 6, 2007)

Drac said:


> As a First Responder I would do whatever necessary until EMS arrives...


 

I am in the same boat here.   Using universal precautions I would do what I need to do.    But before all I would make sure the area is secure.


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## kidswarrior (Jul 6, 2007)

MJS said:


> There is a thread in the Horro Stories section regarding a female that was stabbed in a store.  It was about 2 min. before help was called, numerous people continued to shop, literally steppin over this poor, dying person and one even took the time to take a cell phone picture of her, for what reason, I'll never understand.
> 
> Anyway...my questions are: when exactly would you step in and aid someone?  How far would you go to offer aid?


I step in as soon as I see it's a real need (not just two knuckleheads squared off). Call me crazy, it's just the way I grew up, then marine medic (Navy Corpsman) training sealed the deal.

So, pretty much what everyone has already said. 

Interesting find, Mike, and great question. Thanks for posting.


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## jks9199 (Jul 6, 2007)

When would I step in?

It depends.  In this case, as soon as I saw someone in need of aid.  That's pretty easy.  I'd have been sending someone for EMS aid, and providing what aid I could until they got there.

Had it been slightly earlier, while the assault was ongoing, it becomes more complex.  I have to way whether I can safely intervene, for myself, those who I am responsible for, and those around me, and even for the combatants.  I don't want to make the situation worse; I don't want to add another victim, and I may be responsible for others, and have to take that into account.  However, no matter what, my MINIMUM involvement is serving as a good witness, and getting the appropriate emergency authorities involved.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 6, 2007)

MJS said:


> There is a thread in the Horro Stories section regarding a female that was stabbed in a store. It was about 2 min. before help was called, numerous people continued to shop, literally steppin over this poor, dying person and one even took the time to take a cell phone picture of her, for what reason, I'll never understand.
> 
> Anyway...my questions are: when exactly would you step in and aid someone?  How far would you go to offer aid?




I would respond as soon as I could. If I was not able to respond but call 911 I would. If I was able to give physical aid and have others call for help. 

Personally I think it depends upon the situation and the people involved. i.e. I will not cross gun fire to try to get to someone or to a phone to get help. But this is more of the what if.


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## Shotochem (Jul 12, 2007)

searcher said:


> I am in the same boat here. Using universal precautions I would do what I need to do. But before all I would make sure the area is secure.


 
Same here.  

I can not understand why anyone would not help another injured human being or at least get them help ASAP.  

-Marc-


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## bushidomartialarts (Jul 12, 2007)

LawDog said:


> Aiding someone that is in distress is a moral obligation, it should be done with out delay. If you second guess yourself someone will suffer.


 
Agreed, with the caveat that "in distress" is sometimes hard to figure.

If you see two guys in a drunken brawl, neither of them is "in distress".

If you see a man and his wife going at each other, and you restrain the man, only to get cold-cocked by the wife....now _you're_ "in distress".

Some cases, like the OP, are obvious and clear-cut.  Others, not so much.


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## LawDog (Jul 12, 2007)

In distress - a victum that has little or no chance. This does not always mean that a physical intervention is required, verbal support, a 911 call or screaming out for more assistance will do. Standing by and doing nothing is morally wrong.
Been there done that on the wife jumping on my back and attacking me. Even so I would do it again.
Being correct does not mean that you will be appreciated by all.
:btg:


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 12, 2007)

As soon as I see someone is in danger. Maybe it's my first aid training dicating what I do. Or maybe its because I'm actualy this fun little species called a HUMAN! If you dont atleast go get help when you see someone dieing like that, it's because you have no soul. Period.


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## Doc_Jude (Jul 12, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> I step in as soon as I see it's a real need (not just two knuckleheads squared off). Call me crazy, it's just the way I grew up, then marine medic (Navy Corpsman) training sealed the deal.



Roger That!


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## Phoenix44 (Jul 28, 2007)

When would I respond to a person bleeding on the floor???  Immediately.


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## Kreth (Jul 29, 2007)

Hell, most people won't even speak up when some rude ******* thinks he can jump the line at a convenience store because he's "in a hurry." But they're quick to chime in if another rude ******* (me) tells him to get his *** in line with the rest of us.


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## KenpoTex (Jul 29, 2007)

missed this one 'till now...

You never know what you're getting into when you intervene in a fight between two people you don't know.  However, in a case like this where a man is attacking a woman with a knife, IMO it's pretty safe to assume that it's a "serious" assault, not just a fight that got out of hand.  Hopefully I would have been there in time to shoot the S.O.B. before he stabbed her, or at least before he inflicted as much injury.  

Failing that, I'd call 911 and then grab my trauma kit out of my car and do my best to stop bleeding, etc. until EMS arrived.


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## Tez3 (Jul 29, 2007)

In many European countries such as France it is illegal not to help someone who needs aid such as this woman, you can and probably will be arrested for not helping her.You can be tried and sentenced if she dies and you do nothing to help her. It means you have to call for the emergency services at the very least. These laws don't mean you have to intervene in dangerous situations they mean you _can't ignore_ what's happening, you call the police and when it's safe to do so render any aid necessary.


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## Drac (Jul 29, 2007)

Kreth said:


> Hell, most people won't even speak up when some rude ******* thinks he can jump the line at a convenience store because he's "in a hurry." But they're quick to chime in if another rude ******* (me) tells him to get his *** in line with the rest of us.


 
Thankfully I have *NEVER* suffered from that problem...I have once or twice used my body as a block to prevent someone from trying to get in front of me because "they be in a hurry"...


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 29, 2007)

Stepping into an ongoing fight with multiple members is always dangerous. Remember you can do nothing to help the person being attacked is you are out of commission.
Cell phones and 911 come to mind first .
If you feel this person is in danger of his/her life well that is a different story.
As for helping someone down after a fight, I would help as soon as possible and to the extent of my training and knowledge. Depending on how badly they where hurt such things as : stopping bleeding, elevating feet and keeping them from going into shock, keeping them as still as possible, and maybe even cpr, come to mind.
sometime if you are in a car simply blowing the horn can stop a situation but not always. Calling all in the area to aid is also an option but may result in a bigger brawl but its worth a try


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## Brian King (Jul 30, 2007)

Below are two links which describe the effect nicknamed bystander effect. They also link to a few of the multiple experiments that have proved this group effect. I hinted to this effect in the thread the OP is discussing. I think the understanding of this effect, realizing that even we can easily fall into this inaction, and likely have in our past is important and understanding it should be made a part of our training, both martial and first aid. Whether we see a crime or person in distress or we are the person in distress, understanding reasons of the effect, recognizing when we or others are under the influence of this phenomenon, and how to pull ourselves and others into reacting positively can be life saving while relying on the expectation that you are others will automatically help is a mistake that could prove costly in my opinion. Understanding this effect also helps to explain many of the events we hear about when victims are injured and murdered terribly while perhaps dozens see and do nothing. 

For more interesting reading view
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/pda/A585362?s_id=1

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect


Brian King


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## grydth (Jul 30, 2007)

These reports always bring on a cascade of emotions for me... cynical anger over yet another public homicide...compassion for some poor woman senselessly dying on a store floor... disgust for the sheeple, bahing and bleating in their mall-pasture.... 

Then comes the, "If only I were there" part: I'd have beaten the assailant senseless, the crowd ooh'ing and ah'ing over where the old guy got those moves... then applied first aid to save the victim, then taken charge of the scene.....:samurai:

Only... it probably is not true.

If (as usual) I had my family with me, then sorry, but my first duty would be immediately getting them out of harm's way. Not having any real idea how many attackers there are, or if some mass killing is underway, I'd get my family out of there and far away. Would I summon police/ambulance as soon as possible? Sure... but the cold facts are the victim's probably dead by then and the attacker's gotten away. I'm sorry about that, but not sorry enough to let them kill my 8 year old daughter next.

Were I on my own, that would likely be a different matter. Once I did get between 2 giants preparing to square off and told them,"You can't do this here".... and both just truned and walked away. It was surreal. I have, on multiple occasions, put myself between threatening individuals at work and my staff.... but would I do it again? Or just lose my nerve and run away?

I honestly do not know.


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## NDNgirl4ever (Jul 31, 2007)

searcher said:


> I am in the same boat here. Using universal precautions I would do what I need to do. But before all I would make sure the area is secure.


Same here. I'm and EMT-Basic, and entering paramedic school this fall. If the scene wasn't secure, I'd call the police. If it was secure, and the person had injuries, I'd call for an ambulance and try to give what medical help I could.


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## jks9199 (Jul 31, 2007)

NDNgirl4ever said:


> Same here. I'm and EMT-Basic, and entering paramedic school this fall. If the scene wasn't secure, I'd call the police. If it was secure, and the person had injuries, I'd call for an ambulance and try to give what medical help I could.


Be honest...

You'd stage and wait for the cops to tell you the scene was secure!  

OK... Just kidding.

That's actually a good, reasonable response.


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## Brian King (Aug 26, 2007)

*_yet again_.

*http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,294352,00.html*

Cops: Tape Shows at Least 10 Witnesses Ignoring Minnesota Woman's Cries for Help During Sexual Assault

Thursday, August 23, 2007


ST. PAUL, Minn. &#8212; A security video from an apartment hallway shows at least 10 witnesses ignored a woman's cries for help for more than an hour as a man beat and sexually assaulted her, prosecutors in Minnesota said.

The surveillance video clearly showed men and women looking out their apartment doors or starting to walk down the hallway before retreating as the woman was assaulted for nearly 90 minutes, police spokesman Tom Walsh said.

Police said they responded to a call of drunken behavior and found Somali immigrant Rage Ibrahim, 25, and a woman lying unconscious in the hallway early Tuesday. The woman's clothing had been pulled up and she had fresh scratches on her face and blood on her thigh, according to the criminal complaint.

Ibrahim says he is innocent and that the incident was a misunderstanding, according to Omar Jamal, the executive director of the Somali JusticeAdvocacyCenter, who spoke on Ibrahim's behalf. Ibrahim was charged with several counts of first-degree criminal sexual conduct, prosecutors said.

Walsh said police were shocked by the behavior of the bystanders.
"(The video) shows one person looking out of her door probably three times," Walsh said. "It shows another person walking up, observing what's going on, then turning and putting up the hood of his sweatshirt." At one point, the 26-year-old woman knocked on a door, yelling for the occupants to call police. A man inside that apartment told police he did not open the door or look out, but said he did call police &#8212; although they have no record of his call, according to court documents.
Minnesota law makes it a petty misdemeanor to not give reasonable help to a person in danger of "grave physical harm." Walsh said it is unlikely police would pursue charges against witnesses in this case because authorities would have to show that witnesses knew the woman was in extreme danger.

Jamal said Ibrahim went into the hallway after the woman because he thought she was too drunk to drive. They struggled over car keys, and "he is saying there was a huge misunderstanding," Jamal said, adding that the police report does not show "the truth of what happened that night."
"He did not rape her," Jamal said.

lessons to be learned, 
Brian King


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## jks9199 (Aug 26, 2007)

Again...

NEVER assume someone else is calling the cops.  The minimum you owe your fellow human being in trouble is to make an anonymous call reporting the fight or attack.

Trust me...  N. E. Mouse makes plenty of calls to the cops.


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## FieldDiscipline (Aug 27, 2007)

I agree with what Kamon Guy said about not knowing who the antagonist is in a 'square go' punch up, unless someone is getting really badly destroyed you're better off out of it some times.

If someone is being attacked however and you have a got a reasonable idea of the situation you've gotta help.  Medically, and in the case of that terrible story of the woman above, physically.

That could be your family.  I cant believe people ignore things like that.  Of all the things in the universe I have seen that frighten me, that is chief amongst them.


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## Balrog (Aug 27, 2007)

LawDog said:


> Aiding someone that is in distress is a moral obligation, it should be done with out delay. If you second guess yourself someone will suffer.
> :jedi1:


 
There it is.

If even one of Kitty Genovese's neighbors had felt like this, no one would know her name today.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 27, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Again...
> 
> NEVER assume someone else is calling the cops. The minimum you owe your fellow human being in trouble is to make an anonymous call reporting the fight or attack.
> 
> Trust me... N. E. Mouse makes plenty of calls to the cops.


 
This is a great response in the moment *do not assume anything*.  Make the call, render aid if possible and or you are able to.


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## Drac (Aug 27, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Again...
> 
> NEVER assume someone else is calling the cops. The minimum you owe your fellow human being in trouble is to make an anonymous call reporting the fight or attack.
> 
> Trust me... N. E. Mouse makes plenty of calls to the cops.


 
Well said...


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## jks9199 (Oct 17, 2007)

Bump... highlighting threads on use of force.


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## Guardian (Nov 28, 2007)

MJS said:


> There is a thread in the Horro Stories section regarding a female that was stabbed in a store. It was about 2 min. before help was called, numerous people continued to shop, literally steppin over this poor, dying person and one even took the time to take a cell phone picture of her, for what reason, I'll never understand.
> 
> Anyway...my questions are: when exactly would you step in and aid someone? How far would you go to offer aid?


 
In this case, immediately, it will do me no harm in notifying the authorities and lending whatever comfort I can to this individual no matter the circumstances.

Anyone taking pictures in my view should have the crap kicked out of them right there and then and their camera phone stomped into the ground.


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## pstarr (Nov 29, 2007)

Yes, I would have intervened.  Been there, done that.


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## Journey (Nov 29, 2007)

At times like this and others I believe we must consider the *"toality of the situation as we understand it *", but realize we may not know all that is going on. There are just so many factors that go into how we should respond to a given situation that it is difficult at best to give a concrete response. I do subscribe to calling the authoities immediatly and being the best possible witness you can be. This I would do without hesitation as earliest it is safe to do so. However our individual response will need to vary. If I am with other 5 blackbelts from my dojo and were walking out of the local gun club to witness an assault in progress will bring out a different respose if I am unarmed (not good) and with loved ones to see several people attacking an other with a knife or in a shootring situation. I realize these are two extremes and most fall somewhere in between. But we should not forget our responsibility we have to our own family to come home each night. As for rendering Aid to a victim, having been in EMS for over 20 years I would do so as soon as there was no immediate threat.


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## Jeff Harvey (Dec 2, 2007)

As SGM Parker put it, "Whatever The Attitude, So Is The Response".


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## ares (Dec 2, 2007)

If I understand correctly, the event was over and people still ignored this person. I would never step over a injured person. I would do all the first aid I could until emt's arrived. If it was a matter of an assault, I would more then likely step in and try to help this person. I would rather try to help someone in need then not to. scott


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## KempoGuy06 (Dec 3, 2007)

MJS said:


> There is a thread in the Horro Stories section regarding a female that was stabbed in a store.  It was about 2 min. before help was called, numerous people continued to shop, literally steppin over this poor, dying person and one even took the time to take a cell phone picture of her, for what reason, I'll never understand.
> 
> Anyway...my questions are: when exactly would you step in and aid someone?  How far would you go to offer aid?


I would do anything that I felt comfortable doing, I have training in CPR and basic first AID, so I would do what I could but beyond that nothing, not for that legal ramifications of doing something wrong but the damage I might cause to the person if I do not know what I am doing

B


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## JadeDragon3 (Dec 28, 2007)

I would step in and aid someone when I saw that the person was clearly getting his butt beaten and it was clear that the other person had better fighting skill than the one getting beat. This brings to mind a situation that my teacher (John Dufresne) got in back years ago (1991?). He was at a gas station and saw these two guys fighting. The one guy was beating the crap out of the other one. The guy getting beat was a bloody mess so my teacher goes over and tries to stop the fight by trying to calm the guy down. My teacher explained to him that he clearly can beat this guy and would he just stop. Well apparently this guy didn't like the fact that my tacher was trying to stop the fight so he dicide to push my teacher in the chest with both hand on his right side of his chest. When he did this my teach John Dufresne steps back with the push and does a spinning hook kick to the dudes head. This guy went from being vertical to horizontal in a split second and then hit the ground. John was so freaked out thinking hee killed the guy that he got in his car and fled with a quickness. He got a bout 2 miles down the road and decided to go back and call the ambulance for the guy. When he got back the guy was just then starting to get up off the ground. My teacher wasn't arrested or anything thank goodness. Thats a true story. But my point is be careful if you decide to respond to a fight. You might get arrested for assualt.


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## TrainHardFightEasy (Dec 28, 2007)

As soon as you see or sense someone may need some help, if you feel you can be of assistance you should help them.


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## Cruentus (Dec 28, 2007)

MJS said:


> There is a thread in the Horro Stories section regarding a female that was stabbed in a store.  It was about 2 min. before help was called, numerous people continued to shop, literally steppin over this poor, dying person and one even took the time to take a cell phone picture of her, for what reason, I'll never understand.
> 
> Anyway...my questions are: when exactly would you step in and aid someone?  How far would you go to offer aid?



I am reasonably expected to be a first responder with my job. But, I think that everyone is a 1st responder. People need to start taking responsability for their environment and community and if someone is in need, people should be helping without question. This doesn't mean jumping into drunken fights or domestic disputes, but at the very least people can call the authorities or try to administer 1st aid to a stab victim...


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## jks9199 (Dec 28, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> I am reasonably expected to be a first responder with my job. But, I think that everyone is a 1st responder. People need to start taking responsability for their environment and community and if someone is in need, people should be helping without question. This doesn't mean jumping into drunken fights or domestic disputes, but at the very least people can call the authorities or try to administer 1st aid to a stab victim...


But... to use (or, more likely abuse) David Grossman's terminology... not everyone is a sheepdog.

Unfortunately, most people are sheep, and will sit there staring while something happens.  What I personally would like to see is for everyone to at least become an "annoying yappy dog" that makes noise and summons the sheepdogs when something happens, instead of being placid, cud-chewing sheep.


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## KenpoTex (Dec 28, 2007)

Cruentus said:
			
		

> But, I think that everyone is a 1st responder. People need to start taking responsability for their environment and community and if someone is in need, people should be helping without question. This doesn't mean jumping into drunken fights or domestic disputes, but at the very least people can call the authorities or try to administer 1st aid to a stab victim...


agreed.



jks9199 said:


> But... to use (or, more likely abuse) David Grossman's terminology... not everyone is a sheepdog.
> 
> Unfortunately, most people are sheep, and will sit there staring while something happens. What I personally would like to see is for everyone to at least become an "annoying yappy dog" that makes noise and summons the sheepdogs when something happens, instead of being placid, cud-chewing sheep.


also agreed.

I know that not everyone is a warrior...so be it.  The thing that pisses me off is that there are a lot of people that like to beat their chests and brag about how tough they are and what a good little sheepdog they are...then at the first hint of a wolf they turn around and run.


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## Guardian (Dec 29, 2007)

kenpotex said:


> agreed.
> 
> also agreed.
> 
> *I know that not everyone is a warrior...so be it. The thing that pisses me off is that there are a lot of people that like to beat their chests and brag about how tough they are and what a good little sheepdog they are...then at the first hint of a wolf they turn around and run.*




*I love that portion Kenpotex, I concur 100%.*


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