# Pekiti Tirsia Kali mixes with other arts



## dpena8 (Mar 19, 2017)

Im going to be taking a kali class soon and wanted to know how well it is to incorporate others arts into it such as wing chun, hapkido, or even judo


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## Charlemagne (Mar 20, 2017)

PTK can blend well with other arts, depending on the arts you have in mind, with the ones you listed above, I believe that WC would blend the best.  Having said that, I see a better blend with something like Thai Boxing, Silat, and BJJ.  But then, I try to think of multiple arts being trained together as which ones are going to complement the art rather than overlap too much, or replace.  

I think you would struggle significantly trying to integrate PTK and Hapkido.


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## Charlemagne (Mar 20, 2017)

Where are you looking to train?


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## Danny T (Mar 20, 2017)

dpena8 said:


> Im going to be taking a kali class soon and wanted to know how well it is to incorporate others arts into it such as wing chun, hapkido, or even judo


Pekiti blends well with several other arts. Wing Chun very much so. Many principles are shared. A lot of the advance knife work is quite similar though the drills are different. Hapkido overall I don't feel will blend well however understanding the wrist, elbow, and shoulder locks will be greatly enhanced between the two. As to Judo I've only a low level of experience but understanding the controlling the body for sweeps is great but changes rather drastically when a blade is introduced. However understanding some of the throws and ground work can certainly give one a more resourceful skill set.


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## ShortBridge (Mar 20, 2017)

It is very common to mix Kali and Wing Chun, but I personally find them almost entirely incompatible.

If you've not taken a Kali class yet, on what are you basing your opinion that it is an incomplete system that needs to be augmented with something else?


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## dpena8 (Mar 21, 2017)

you should never stay with only one style and should always try others and mix because it gives you other ways to defend yourself and would open your mind to more things and oppnent can do to you


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## ShortBridge (Mar 21, 2017)

I see.


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## geezer (Mar 22, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> It is very common to mix Kali and Wing Chun, but *I personally find them almost entirely incompatible*.



_Shortbridge_, I'd be really interested on hearing you elaborate on that, seeing as the escrima system I teach (evolved from Latosa Escrima Concepts and Torres DTE) integrates seamlessly with my VT although I can see how other systems of Arnis/Kali/Escrima might not.


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## ShortBridge (Mar 22, 2017)

It's a debate that I don't want to have, because it won't get resolved. It is very common to mix Filipino styles with Wing Chun. Lots of people do it, including you and I don't want to suggest that what you do isn't valid or even great. 

I think the marriage of these systems has mostly to do with Bruce Lee/Dan Inosanto, and I don't mean disrespect to either them or anyone who chooses to train that way, but my own experience and training has landed me at a different conclusion.  

There are things about Filipino styles that I like and admire, but strategically and philosophically, I don't find the approach complimentary with Wing Chun. That in no way suggests that what I do is better, just that I don't feel that they integrate smoothly. I knew when I posted that, someone would see it differently, but I still wanted to put a different perspective out there. 

The OP and I also differ on this point:

"you should never stay with only one style and should always try others and mix because it gives you other ways to defend yourself and would open your mind to more things and oppnent can do to you"

..but I'm not about to try to convince a 23 year old that he doesn't know everything. It would have been tough to convince me at 23. 

I will just add that I would not train someone who came to me and said that he wanted to learn what I had, even though he knew it was incomplete and he was already working on what would make it better. There are places for that, but I'm just not of that school.


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## Charlemagne (Mar 22, 2017)

From a biomechanics perspective, what causes people to think (myself included) that WC and Kali integrate well is that they both include the trapping range.  WC lives there a great deal, and depending on what system of Kali you train you will spend a good deal of time there as well.  However, when one looks closer at the mechanics of how trapping is done, it is quite different in PTK versus WC.  In addition, the strategy and tactics of the two systems are different, and I can easily see how that would lead to problems.  

So, from a complementality of systems perspective, I don't think that PTK and WC are a good mix.  Of the ones listed by the OP, it would be what I would do, but I honestly wouldn't choose any of the ones he listed to mix with PTK.


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## ShortBridge (Mar 22, 2017)

Good post, thank you, Charlemagne. I will say, though that even "trapping range" is not what I know to be a Wing Chun concept. I think that came from JKD, but maybe it existed before.

It is true that trapping occurs in  Wing Chun, but none of the lineages I've trained in have presented it that way and to do so, would I think be an area that conflicts with some core principles. 

Wing Chun techniques without principles is not Wing Chun. If you take pieces of Wing Chun and mix it with something anthetical, you don't get Wing Chun+, you get something else entirely. Maybe something good, but how could anyone starting out have a basis for knowing that they can create something better?

Maybe after 10 years or so, but that's rarely what we're talking about.

Again, just my perspective.


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## Charlemagne (Mar 23, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> Good post, thank you, Charlemagne. I will say, though that even "trapping range" is not what I know to be a Wing Chun concept. I think that came from JKD, but maybe it existed before.



Makes sense.  JKD  has greater variability in range than WC, which would necessitate distinctions between ranges in ways that differ from WC as its parent art.  This is not intended to be a pejorative, just an observation.

As for the rest, I am in agreement.  While I do like the idea of training more than one art, as I noted above, training multiple arts that deal with some of the same things doesn't make as much sense to me.  If that is what you want, why not train two arts that don't overlap much but could complement each other (karate and judo, or MT and BJJ, etc.)?  It's not wrong to look at an art like BJJ for example, and say "man I really like what they do on the ground, but they don't do much stand up, so I better train something along side of it"...


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## ShortBridge (Mar 23, 2017)

I would agree with the idea that it might make more sense, if you were going to mix things, that you choose less-related things. Something with striking and something else with ground fighting. Or something empty hand and someone weapon related. Less opportunity for conflict or contradiction that way.


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## geezer (Jun 30, 2017)

Thought I might revisit this thread even though _the OP is long gone._ Or perhaps _because_ the OP is long gone? The conversation I'm interested in is really with the rest of you!

First off, I think I get where _ShortBridge _was coming from when he said that he did not mix WC and Kali and actually found them incompatible. I wonder. It may depend on how you approach the FMA you train. _ShortBridge_ also said:



ShortBridge said:


> I would agree with the idea that it might make more sense, if you were going to mix things, that you choose less-related things. Something with striking and something else with ground fighting. Or *something empty hand and someone weapon related.* Less opportunity for conflict or contradiction that way.



^^^^ Agreed! _This_ (bolded section above) is precisely how I've been able to integrate the _Escrima _I've trained with my VT/WC. First of all, my FMA foundation is _not_ Inosanto/LaCosta Kali but _Latosa Escrima Concepts_ and also_ DTE._ One of the fundamental concepts of these systems is _"transition" _or the ability  to seamlessly and effectively move from range to range, from one weapon to another, and to to empty handed combat, all while applying the _same core concepts_.  And the concepts involved do not contradict WC/VT. In fact, they are at the core of my lineage of WC/VT. This is nothing new. Think about how WC already incorporates this kind of "transition" and adaptation when learning the traditional weapons of WC/VT,  namely the _luk dim boon kwun_ and _bart cham dao_. Stance, steps, techniques and range all change as necessary, but they are conceptually entirely WC/VT.

So when using weapons and working at longer ranges, a more typically "Escrima-looking" approach (in terms of stance and movement) is very functional. When closing-in, using short weapons or going empty handed, I will transition into my WC/VT structure and way of moving. The transition is natural and I do not compromise either my Escrima or WC/VT ...any more than a WC guy who also trains a grappling art like BJJ. Each method remains distinct, except for that moment of transition where you learn fluid, efficient ways to move from the one modality to the other ...just like the WC/Grappler learns to move from striking, to clinch, to throw, and to mat work. Think of a big Venn diagram with relatively small areas where the circles overlap.

I began training Latosa Escrima alongside my WC (then "WT") back in the early 80s. Over the last ten years, I've gone a bit further, formulating an approach and curriculum called PCE that is designed to emphasize the compatibility of Escrima and WC/VT taught in the organization I train with. Not a "new style" --how can you have that with "concepts" anyway? Just an approach to teaching and application that has worked for us.

...You know, I really need to learn how to make and post videos so I can give some visual examples. Maybe if I cared about making money or a name for myself, I would. But, really, I just like _doing_ this stuff!


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## ShortBridge (Jul 1, 2017)

That sounds logical and I'm not familiar with your branch of escrima. I also don't claim expertise in FMA in general, but normally when people have either tried to convert me or when I've worked with people who have mixed WC with something they call Kali or Escrima of some sort or another, the conflict is that they focus on attacking the hands, whereas I was taught and teach always attacking center and by "center", in simple terms, I mean the spine from the floor between their feet through the top of their head. You can't do that while simultaneously focusing on breaking the fingers/hand/wrist/elbow progressively as a priority on the way to the body.

I teach Wing Chun as a southern shirt bridge system, like others and our priority and urgency is moving through the arms to the person as quickly as possible.


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## geezer (Jul 1, 2017)

Yeah, I think about it the same way. With our Escrima we also want to get to the core and shut it down. _De-fang the snake?_  Heck no, _bust it's freakin' head!_

--Now that said, when you are working your way in in either art, you often come into contact with arms and hands first. When you are holding a _weapon_, you can hurt and debilitate those hands as you move toward your real objective. That can be helpful.


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## Charlemagne (Jul 2, 2017)

Taking the hand depends on the range you are at.  If you are at long range, and want to stay there (and there are good reasons for this), then taking the hand is appropriate, as that is all you can hit, and it is what is holding the weapon.  If you are at close range, then taking the head is appropriate, though you still need to monitor the hand as, again, they are the threat.  If you are trying to dominate the center at the same time you are getting stabbed in the kidney then what good was it?


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## Juany118 (Jul 2, 2017)

dpena8 said:


> Im going to be taking a kali class soon and wanted to know how well it is to incorporate others arts into it such as wing chun, hapkido, or even judo



I don't study PTK, rather Inosanto Kali, but it seems that something is shared.  Inosanto Kali meshes well enough with Wing Chun that my school teaches them in parallel, not as separate class days.  The grappling aspect of Inosanto Kali also meshes well with my previous Judo training as well and from what I have seen of PTK the same should apply.


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## ShortBridge (Jul 2, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> I don't study PTK, rather Inosanto Kali, but it seems that something is shared.  Inosanto Kali meshes well enough with Wing Chun that my school teaches them in parallel, not as separate class days.  The grappling aspect of Inosanto Kali also meshes well with my previous Judo training as well and from what I have seen of PTK the same should apply.



This is my objection. They are not taught together because they work well together, but because of the Bruce Lee / Dan Inasanto connection. 

I think it's time we look at UFC as a style, rather than an open mixed approach to training. It's decades past time to acknowledge Jun Fan/JKD as a system, rather than relating more broadly to Wing Chun.


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## Juany118 (Jul 2, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> This is my objection. They are not taught together because they work well together, but because of the Bruce Lee / Dan Inasanto connection.
> 
> I think it's time we look at UFC as a style, rather than an open mixed approach to training. It's decades past time to acknowledge Jun Fan/JKD as a system, rather than relating more broadly to Wing Chun.


Well I would take objection to that simply because of the leineage of each art.  While Bruce Lee studied with my Grand Master, William Cheung, they separated in their teens (I study GM William Cheung's TWC)

 Next I think it is clear the principles meet well since others who study WC under other Lineages PLUS PTK (not Inosanto Kali) concur there is a good mesh means... It is a good mesh.  Sometimes, things just fit.

.


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## Charlemagne (Jul 3, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Next I think it is clear the principles meet well since others who study WC under other Lineages PLUS PTK (not Inosanto Kali) concur there is a good mesh means... It is a good mesh.  Sometimes, things just fit.
> .



As I noted above, I study PTK and I _don't_ think it is a good mesh with WC.  Of the arts the OP listed, it was the best option.  However, the strategy of the two systems are so different that I actually think it would be problematic in the long run.  In PTK, our empty hands comes from the knife.  In some FMA's this is said, but not really done.  In PTK, this is really how it works.  If you look at a place where PTK is being trained classically and not mixed with other stuff, you can look at any empty hand movement and find the same movement in solo or double daga.  

Because of this, I believe that WC would end up conflicting with PTK in the long haul.  WC wants to dominate centerline.  PTK only goes to center line in specific instances, particularly in espada y daga/two long weapons or, when you have managed to quarter your opponent and have either their flank or have gotten then moving in a direction that you want them to, and have the proper timing. I suppose another time might be due to environmental consderations (not getting pushed into a corner, etc.).  The bottom line is that the overall strategy of WC and PTK differs greatly due to the reasons for the systems' existence and their assumptions about fighting. 

If one is looking to beef up the mano y mano aspect of things and train PTK, my strong suggestion would be Thai Boxing instead of WC.  Thai Boxing would allow more easily borrowing some techniques to blend in with the core strategy of PTK (with the exception of throwing punches). In addition the mechanics of elbows and kicks in MT and PTK are not too different . Knees can be different (PTK tends to throw the knees more forward versus up as in MT), but that is more of a function of the intent of the knee than anything else, and there are times when PTK throws a rising knee as well.  Straight line punches can easily be open hand strikes with the palm, which PTK has already, and then maintain the strategy of PTK of not taking the chance of damaging your hand to the point that you cannot grasp your weapon.


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## Juany118 (Jul 3, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> As I noted above, I study PTK and I _don't_ think it is a good mesh with WC.  Of the arts the OP listed, it was the best option.  However, the strategy of the two systems are so different that I actually think it would be problematic in the long run.  In PTK, our empty hands comes from the knife.  In some FMA's this is said, but not really done.  In PTK, this is really how it works.  If you look at a place where PTK is being trained classically and not mixed with other stuff, you can look at any empty hand movement and find the same movement in solo or double daga.
> 
> Because of this, I believe that WC would end up conflicting with PTK in the long haul.  WC wants to dominate centerline.  PTK only goes to center line in specific instances, particularly in espada y daga/two long weapons or, when you have managed to quarter your opponent and have either their flank or have gotten then moving in a direction that you want them to, and have the proper timing. I suppose another time might be due to environmental consderations (not getting pushed into a corner, etc.).  The bottom line is that the overall strategy of WC and PTK differs greatly due to the reasons for the systems' existence and their assumptions about fighting.
> 
> If one is looking to beef up the mano y mano aspect of things and train PTK, my strong suggestion would be Thai Boxing instead of WC.  Thai Boxing would allow more easily borrowing some techniques to blend in with the core strategy of PTK (with the exception of throwing punches). In addition the mechanics of elbows and kicks in MT and PTK are not too different . Knees can be different (PTK tends to throw the knees more forward versus up as in MT), but that is more of a function of the intent of the knee than anything else, and there are times when PTK throws a rising knee as well.  Straight line punches can easily be open hand strikes with the palm, which PTK has already, and then maintain the strategy of PTK of not taking the chance of damaging your hand to the point that you cannot grasp your weapon.



Inosanto Kali is very similar to what you describe but I think two things comes  into play.  

First something can mesh well when it brings something new to the table.  While in WC, empty hand, we are looking to dominate the centerline, we do so in  a way very reminicent of "defang the snake", instead of attempting to destroy a limb though (which is very difficult to do without a weapon or lock) we trap the limb.  On the flip side I have found that the forward intent of WC, and other principles, (again empty hand) helps with Kali because both, in my experience, involve trying to compromise your opponent's structure/balance.  This is actually the core point of WC's view of centerline dominance.  You can, short form, dominate/attack the opponent's centerline by attacking his limb, it's not just about going for their "heart", at least in the WC I study.

Second I think understanding the Baat Jaam Do and it's place in WC changes things a bit.  WC is taught in what some may call an "odd" way.  The BJD is a matter of Chicken or the egg.  Like Kali and the knife they very closely related to the hand.  So say the BJD comes from the hand, others say the hand came from the BJD.  Then you look at what the name translates to the "8 chopping blades" the 8 referring to the joints; elbow, wrist, knees, and ankles.

There is more to WC than one usually thinks and there is overlap that allows each to learn something vs just reinforcing what already exists.


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## Charlemagne (Jul 3, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Inosanto Kali is very similar to what you describe but I think two things comes  into play.
> 
> First something can mesh well when it brings something new to the table.  While in WC, empty hand, we are looking to dominate the centerline, we do so in  a way very reminicent of "defang the snake", instead of attempting to destroy a limb though (which is very difficult to do without a weapon or lock) we trap the limb.  On the flip side I have found that the forward intent of WC, and other principles, (again empty hand) helps with Kali because both, in my experience, involve trying to compromise your opponent's structure/balance.  This is actually the core point of WC's view of centerline dominance.  You can, short form, dominate/attack the opponent's centerline by attacking his limb, it's not just about going for their "heart", at least in the WC I study.
> 
> ...



I've trained both Lacoste-Inosanto Kali and Pekiti Tirsia Kali (in two different PTK organizations).  The fundamental strategies of the systems are different.  As such, I would recommend staying away from the idea that because WC might blend with Inosanto Kali well, that it will in PTK.  

Many if not most, Inosanto Instructors also study JKD, etc. anyway, so that likely influences the manner in which they practice the art, in particular because they likely learned them simultaneously.  

In addition, because Lacoste-Inosanto Kali is itself a blended system, that was traditionally taught in a seminar format, there really isn't much in the way of overarching strategies and tactics to work with, or for that matter, to violate.  

That's not meant to be an attack as I have a TON of respect and affection for Guro Dan, just an observation that I believe to be accurate.


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## Juany118 (Jul 3, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> I've trained both Lacoste-Inosanto Kali and Pekiti Tirsia Kali (in two different PTK organizations).  The fundamental strategies of the systems are different.  As such, I would recommend staying away from the idea that because WC might blend with Inosanto Kali well, that it will in PTK.
> 
> Many if not most, Inosanto Instructors also study JKD, etc. anyway, so that likely influences the manner in which they practice the art, in particular because they likely learned them simultaneously.
> 
> ...




Fair enough, though I would at least suggest looking at how the BJD itself and how it adds to what was already learned, if you haven't already done so.  I think it may at least give you a different idea as to what WC is.


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## Charlemagne (Jul 3, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Fair enough, though I would at least suggest looking at how the BJD itself and how it adds to what was already learned, if you haven't already done so.  I think it may at least give you a different idea as to what WC is.



The bit I have seen suggests that, again, we are making different assumptions and have a different strategy as a result.  If I am going to blend something, it is going to be something which compliments rather than overlaps.


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## geezer (Jul 4, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> The bit I have seen suggests that, again, we are making different assumptions and have a different strategy as a result.  If I am going to blend something, it is going to be something which compliments rather than overlaps.



I get that.  An example from my own experience with WC and Eskrima would be not spending much time with Hubud drills. They are very like some of our WC/VT/WT drills called Lat-Sau. But Lat Sau is more linear, direct, and in short, better training for our Wing Chun. From a WC perspective, hubud is, at best, a distraction.

When cross training, I think it can be helpful to note similarities in both technique and concept, but is important not to try to blend the arts themselves. Except, in so far as working on transitions (as I noted in my previous post).


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## Juany118 (Jul 4, 2017)

geezer said:


> Thought I might revisit this thread even though _the OP is long gone._ Or perhaps _because_ the OP is long gone? The conversation I'm interested in is really with the rest of you!
> 
> First off, I think I get where _ShortBridge _was coming from when he said that he did not mix WC and Kali and actually found them incompatible. I wonder. It may depend on how you approach the FMA you train. _ShortBridge_ also said:
> 
> ...


I agree with what you say and feel that Lacoste-Inosanto Kali is a benefit in much the same way.  I see that both inform the other actually.  Let me break it down.
1. Kali is all about being able to flow between ranges as you say.  Flowing between different ranges is not something you learn right out of the gate in TWC however.  That comes later in the curriculum but the Kali rams that home from the beginning.
2. Distance and timing.  There is a BIG incentive to get this out of the gate in Kali, rattan to the noodle hurts!
3. Once in close though one needs to be able to seemlessly tighten up their structure and foot work.  This is one of the places where WC helps Kali.  I sometimes see Kali people, when in close, waster energy and miss proper positioning because they are still doing the "wider" footwork one does when fighting with weapons.
4. I also find they both reinforce the other in terms of flowing and being relaxed.  Both martial arts, imo, suffer when you go stiff and try to "muscle" things.

Maybe it's because my Sifu/Guro teaches both in parallel but as you say it's a seamless, the core principles are shared, but they are still taught as separate arts, that was the "deal" he made with GM Cheung.  To make sure it stays that way we even have to go to another school to test for Wing Chun ranks.


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