# Karate Jutsu ?



## android (Jan 25, 2015)

Anyone know much about karate jutsu?
found a local class that does this - says there base style is Shotokan
but they incorporate different elements into it?
pressure point type stuff?


thanks
andy


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 25, 2015)

android said:


> Anyone know much about karate jutsu?
> found a local class that does this - says there base style is Shotokan
> but they incorporate different elements into it?
> pressure point type stuff?
> ...



From what I know Karate Jutsu was the only kind of karate that was practiced up until about the invention of the car. It was then that Funakoshi started teaching and he watered the techniques down a bit and added in other aspects such as philosophy and made it more into a sport and form of personal development and created Karate Do. Before that karate was based entirely on combat and fighting. So if you found a place that teaches Karate Jutsu and they base it on Shotokan, no doubt they base it on an older form of Shotokan that was practiced before Funakoshi started teaching.


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## dancingalone (Jan 25, 2015)

There are lots of people that add in elements of arts like jujutsu, aikido, or judo into their karate.  They don't necessarily need to come from pre-JKA era Shotokan.  They might even have links into the kyusho crowd if they mention pressure points as part of their promotional literature.

Just ask in person if you want to know more about what they offer.  What I'm trying to get across is that karate-jutsu is a vague term that has been co-opted by more than one person, since the idea of practicing a battlefield form of karate can be appealing to many.  There's really no reliable way to describe what a specific dojo means when they use the term without seeing it in person.


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## Andrew Green (Jan 25, 2015)

Be wary of pressure point stuff...  a lot of nonsense falls under that category.


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## Tez3 (Jan 25, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> From what I know Karate Jutsu was the only kind of karate that was practiced up until about the invention of the car. It was then that Funakoshi started teaching and he watered the techniques down a bit and added in other aspects such as philosophy and made it more into a sport and form of personal development and created Karate Do. Before that karate was based entirely on combat and fighting. So if you found a place that teaches Karate Jutsu and they base it on Shotokan, no doubt they base it on an older form of Shotokan that was practiced before Funakoshi started teaching.


Shotokan before Funakoshi?


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 25, 2015)

Shotokan before Funokoshi started watering it down and teaching it more as a sport and way of life.


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## Danny T (Jan 25, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Shotokan before Funokoshi started watering it down and teaching it more as a sport and way of life.


Funakoshi never utilized or taught Karate as a sport. He was very much against using karate in a sport environment and forbade his student from entering competitions. It wasn't until 'after' he died that some of his students began competing. Also Funakoshi called what he taught Karate. I believe he formed the Shotokai association not Shotokan. His students were called the training facility Shotokan (the house of Shoto).
In 1949, a student of Funakoshi, Isao Obata, founded the Japanese Karate Association (Kyokai), naming Master Funakoshi as chief instructor - a honorific post. They began the sport of Shotokan not Funakoshi.


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## android (Jan 26, 2015)

Andrew Green said:


> Be wary of pressure point stuff...  a lot of nonsense falls under that category.


 yes,  i may go along tomorrow night
But they do have a very senior guy, that apparently trains with them occasionally
i think hes quite a 'controversial' character


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## TimoS (Jan 26, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Shotokan before Funokoshi started watering it down and teaching it more as a sport and way of life.


Since Funakoshi is considered to be the founder of Shotokan, there was no Shotokan before him and, as has already been pointed out, he didn't tech it as a sport. Even the watering down is more than a bit iffy, as he probably taught more or less what he'd been taught (and the way he was taught) and that stuff probably wasn't watered down in any way.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 26, 2015)

TimoS said:


> Since Funakoshi is considered to be the founder of Shotokan, there was no Shotokan before him and, as has already been pointed out, he didn't tech it as a sport. Even the watering down is more than a bit iffy, as he probably taught more or less what he'd been taught (and the way he was taught) and that stuff probably wasn't watered down in any way.



I know that Funakoshi created Shotokan, I used bad wording in my original post, what I meant is that its been changed to be more of a sport and way of life as opposed to a fighting art. You say Funakoshi didn't ever teach it like that, well since his time it has been changed in that fashion. If you find a place that teaches a more traditional form of Shotokan than they might be teaching what Funakoshi developed.


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## RhythmGJ (Jan 26, 2015)

I thought Funakoshi wrote "Karate-DO (emphasis mine), My Way of Life?"...

My understanding is that all "Do's" are somewhat/slightly "watered down," due to the martial/combat training prohibition in Japan during MacArthur's occupation. All "Jutsu's" (Combat) were turned into "Do's" (Art) to placate Western concerns... While there was already Karate-Do and Judo, Kenjutsu became Kendo, Iaijutsu became Iaido, Aiki-jutsu became Aikido, and so on. At least, that was the way my Iaido/Fencing instructor explained it.


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## TimoS (Jan 26, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> well since his time it has been changed in that fashion


As has probably most of karate.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 27, 2015)

RhythmGJ said:


> I thought Funakoshi wrote "Karate-DO (emphasis mine), My Way of Life?"...
> 
> My understanding is that all "Do's" are somewhat/slightly "watered down," due to the martial/combat training prohibition in Japan during MacArthur's occupation. All "Jutsu's" (Combat) were turned into "Do's" (Art) to placate Western concerns... While there was already Karate-Do and Judo, Kenjutsu became Kendo, Iaijutsu became Iaido, Aiki-jutsu became Aikido, and so on. At least, that was the way my Iaido/Fencing instructor explained it.
> 
> ...



From what I've seen in documentaries and articles, the do's were created before WWII and placed more of an emphasis on philosophy, sport, and way of life while the jutsu's were more oriented towards combat. The Japanese word "do" translates "way" or "path" while the Japanese word "jutsu" translates as "art" or "magic." The creation of the do's did not ruin the art, it just changed it and somebody who is looking for the sort of stuff that's emphasized in a do style would be better off training in a do style if that's what they want.


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## RhythmGJ (Jan 27, 2015)

Correct-- In general "Do," more "art-y"  or a bit softer (even though it is technically translated as "way"), and "Jutsu" more "combative" (even though translated as "art") and/or a bit harder in style...


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## RhythmGJ (Jan 27, 2015)

^^^^As I've been taught, that is; I'm sure there are a multiplicity of opinions!


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## kitkatninja (Jan 27, 2015)

I would like to point out that Gichin Funakoshi also wrote the book "Karate Jutsu: The Original Teachings of Gichin Funakoshi" and the Shotokan/Shotokai split didn't happen until after the death of Sensei Funakoshi.

As for the do vs jutsu...  Funakoshi believed that karate had a philosophical essence that carried over into other parts of students' lives. Hence why it's karate-do - karate is a way of life. Without the philosophical essence, you only have karate-jutsu, which is just the art of fighting. Master Funakoshi made this distinction in one of this books.  In other words karate-jutsu is an element of karate-do.

However I believe that a combination of McDojo's around the place (those that teach really bad or paper out ranks that aren't worth the paper it's written on) and MMA (nothing wrong with them); traditional clubs and associations are now distinguishing themselves/re-establishing themselves as arts that are effective and relevant today - just look at the likes of Iain Abernethy (there are others but his name springs up first) that is helping with this.


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## android (Jan 28, 2015)

Update.........

Well, i went along to the Karate Jitsu class last night.

when i arrived there was 2 people - one was the instructor !!
One other guy turned up a bit late, but yeah that was the class, 3 of them.
Felt like just turning around, but thought i would stick it out.

The instructor seemed like a nice enough guy, showed me the basic kata, which they then did for about 10 minutes.

Then they started doind forward rolls on mats - which i thought was a bit strange. havent done that since primary school............

then after that, the rest of the class- apart from a little bit of stretching, seemed to be sitting on a floor in pairs. locating pressure points on arms and neck, which was quite painful, especially with this big bloke i sat with.

got to say i found it all a little silly, his excuse seemed to be ' oh, we dont just go up and down the room - doing punches and kicks, etc

so yes, dont think i will be gong back.

The Wingrove association, was also in the back of my mind.

To me karate is about Kata, not sitting on the floor pinching each other.
There is one more class i have found near me, that Teaches Karate 'Wado Ryu' style, i may give that a go next week

running out of options..................


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## dancingalone (Jan 28, 2015)

android said:


> Update.........
> 
> 
> then after that, the rest of the class- apart from a little bit of stretching, seemed to be sitting on a floor in pairs. locating pressure points on arms and neck, which was quite painful, especially with this big bloke i sat with.
> ...



If they take pressure point training seriously, practicing locating the points on a variety of partners with different sizes and body builds should be a regular part of study.  It's certainly not for everyone though and honestly probably a specialized field that should only (IMO) receive high attention after other skills like learning how to move and strike to a high level has been attained first.

Good luck with your search for a school!


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## android (Jan 28, 2015)

i wasnt impressed
i have had a better workout walking up the stairs


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## dancingalone (Jan 28, 2015)

android said:


> i wasnt impressed
> i have had a better workout walking up the stairs



It's good that you have an idea of what you want.  Martial arts does not always = working out, though in most schools and arts, cardio activity is a goodly component of training.  Not always though.

I don't know you from Adam, but you might be more happy with a dojo that does lots of line basics and pad striking along with frequent free sparring.  Those aren't difficult to find if you live in a decently populated area.


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## kitkatninja (Jan 28, 2015)

Good luck with finding an association/club that suits you


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## Grenadier (Feb 5, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> It was then that Funakoshi started teaching and he watered the techniques down a bit and added in other aspects such as philosophy and made it more into a sport and form of personal development and created Karate Do.



What you mentioned above is simply way off base, when it comes to Shotokan Karate.  



> Before that karate was based entirely on combat and fighting.



Itosu Sensei would strongly disagree.  Maybe you confused him with Funakoshi Sensei?  It was Itosu who helped make Karate more accessible to the masses, instead of just a few elite folks, by putting a much more step-wise approach to learning Karate.   Regardless of Itosu's making the system easier to learn, the end result will still be the same for the dedicated student.  



> So if you found a place that teaches Karate Jutsu and they base it on Shotokan, no doubt they base it on an older form of Shotokan that was practiced before Funakoshi started teaching.



As the others have already stated, there was no Shotokan Karate before Funakoshi Sensei.  For that matter, it was never called Shotokan Karate by Funakoshi Sensei, and it wasn't until his students took his pen name, and named it as such.


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## Grenadier (Feb 5, 2015)

android said:


> i wasnt impressed
> i have had a better workout walking up the stairs



Sorry to hear about this.  

I can understand having an isolated class where there's only a few students, but usually, when you only have a two man class on a regular basis,  it's not a good sign at all.  

If you don't mind my asking, in what city are you located?  We may be able to suggest a better dojo.


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## Buka (Feb 7, 2015)

Might be tough to judge a dojo on one class, might be easy.

If I'm taking a class, I like a smaller group. If it's a good instructor, I'm going to get more out of it.

If Funakoshi Sensei could suddenly come alive today I think he would be amazed, amused and appalled.
Amazed to see how far Martial Arts have come.
Amused to see us all blabbing, bickering and the hoopla associated with everything.
Appalled,  well, you know.


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## OldKarateGuy (Mar 11, 2015)

Just a personal opinion, but when you encounter someone who claims to have taken the best of style A and the best of style B, and created something new - maybe 'karate jutsu' - run, not walk, for the nearest exit. The old masters spent a lifetime trying to massage the best way to skin the cat. I hardly think some guy who works part-time teaching MA at the mall while painting houses or something is going to discover something new that martial artists who trained from childhood somehow overlooked. Maybe...but unlikely. Find a reputable, traditional style school. When you're an advanced Dan, then maybe you'll have a basis to start free lancing. But until then, find an instructor with real credentials from a real organization who isn't making it up as he goes along.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 11, 2015)

OldKarateGuy said:


> Just a personal opinion, but when you encounter someone who claims to have taken the best of style A and the best of style B, and created something new - maybe 'karate jutsu' - run, not walk, for the nearest exit. The old masters spent a lifetime trying to massage the best way to skin the cat.


|
There's an awful lot to learn, yeah....


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