# A Real Deal



## Brad Dunne (Mar 16, 2007)

Received this e-mail from one of my former students.  Would like to have folks read it and offer their opinion(s) on what transpired. If you found something of value that could/would aid in your training, what would it be?


Sorry I cut it short but I accidentally hit the send button then i had to get to work I am on second shift now.  

Anyway I was assigned to processing and I brought two inmates into the dressing room.  Upon entering the dressing room they where both complaining to each other about how they should not be in the jail that the cop made up some bogus charges.  They where the normal grumpy inmates.  Then they became irritated that they had to dress in an inmate uniform because they where being bonded out and they did not belong there anyway.  I did not think anything of it, it is a normal occurrence.  

I tell them the quicker I get them through this process the quicker they get to a bed and once their bond goes through they can get out.  I also informed them that the reason that we make them change is that some times people where going several days in the street clothes.  This usually calms them down.  Both of them did calm down.  It started to become clear that these two guys where either buddies or kinda clicked and sided with each other.  

I got both of them uniforms and proceeded to instruct them to change in to the uniforms and what to do with their street clothes.  Here is where things when bad.  The one scumbag looked at me and said what are you going to watch us change are you a fag or something, (something to that effect).  

My norm is to say well it is my job and it is for your safety also.  The idiot started getting agitated and shooting his mouth off about something.  At this point I distanced myself from him and told him either he changes his clothes or go to lockdown and his bond would be revoked.  On a bond this is not true but it usually works you have to go through leaps and bounds to get a bond revoked it is next to impossible.  

Next thing I know he is lashing out at me low with a straight thrust towards my belly.  I sprung backwards and to the left and parried his strike with my left hand and I punched him in his kidney he fell to his knees.  Here is where I made my mistake.  I created a large distance 10-15 feet between us and reached for my mic to call for back up.  I should have proceeded to clobber the crap out of him but there was one the these non certified inmate lovers that has complained several times about Officers doing there jobs.  

I did not have time to call for back up.  He was back on his feet and coming at me quickly, this is when I noticed the knife I never noticed it the first time.  He started dancing around in front of me his buddy started yelling Stab Him Kill the prick.  I then realized that i was going to be fighting two people.  He flipped the knife over into an ice pick style grip as he was flipping the knife I kicked him in the groin with my left foot and steped to the side at 45 degree angel and got beside him I then delivered a punch to his neck as hard as i could.  My strike landed just over the main artery in his neck he fell to the floor harder than I have ever seen somebody fall before and he was not moving.  

Blood was coming out of his mouth.  My next thought was is he down did i just hit his jaw.  I looked up at the other guy he was reaching for the knife.  I yelled get away from the knife he bent over reached down for it.  I kicked him in the face with a front kick using my right leg as he was picking the knife up.  He kind of recoiled up into a squatting position there was blood pouring out of his nose.  I then side kicked him as hard as I could I have no idea where I hit him I just heard cracking and popping.  He fell backwards and landed several feet away from where I kicked him.  

I reached for my radio and just about then about 10 officers came barging in the door.  Both where cuffed.  They guy that originally hand the knife was 911'd to the hospital.  He woke up as the paramedics arrived he was barely able to breath and choking on blood, blood was everywhere.  He then passed out again.  The second guy was transported to the hospital non emergency.  He had 2 fractured ribs and a broken nose.  The first guys throat did swell shut and they where able to give him a tracheotomy (that is spelled wrong) you know they basically put a whole throat so he could breath.  He also suffered a brain injury either from the punch or his head hitting the ground and bruised and swollen testicles.  He went into a coma due to the brain injury and they where not sure if he was going to live, I found out in a round about way that the doctors where pretty much sure he was going to die and they stated it was a merical that he lived.  The surgeons saved his life they had to do surgery at the hospital immediately to stop the bleeding and to basically fix his throat.  

I have not seen either of the two since the incident.  But I was told that the first guy is having complications with fine motor skills and speech due to some brain damage that he received.  The second guy healed up but need surgery on his nose if he decides he needs to get is straightened.  OK Dirt bag number one was arrested for a DUI.  Second offense.  

He was not strip searched they do not strip traffic charges and mistermeanors that are not drug charges.  They are supposed to pat them and then use the metal detector on them obviously this was never done.  The knife was in a sheath strapped to his belt and had atleast a 3 inch blade.  How in the world could you miss that?  The intake video and the processing video verified that my suspicions where true. Also it turns out that these two idiots where arrested together.  

The second one was arrested on a warrant.  They are supposed to he kept separate if they are arrested together or on related charges.  In the computer they are listed as to have no contact.  Also both got together and hired lawyer pukes and instead of taking it to court they got checks for 100,000 bucks I am serious 100,000.  Here is where i get real pissed off.  The state refused to take it to court they dropped all the charges The first idiot got time served and 6 moths probation for the DUI the second idiot got transferred to Pasco, so i don't know what happened to him.  I wound up in a heavy Internal Affairs investigation.  

I was exonerated.  I was given 2 weeks paid administrative leave because of the incident.  I actually refused it and told them that I wanted to come to work, administrative leave is actually a bad thing.  But I was ordered to take the time due to the "Use of Deadly Force" policies.  Yes, they deemed it a use of deadly force.  Things could have turned out a whole lot worse but the way i figured it I won, I got a vacation and i was not injured. I also learned a valuable lesson in this incident which could have cost me my life, if it is on it is on no matter who is watching.  

That about sums up what happened.


----------



## zDom (Mar 16, 2007)

My belief is (and this belief has been confirmed by both anecdotes by people I trust and first-hand observation) that martial arts are not only effective for some people, but even DANGEROUSLY so.

This story just goes to show it is a lot easier to accidently kill someone than some people think! I'm not talking about "death touches" or "ki blasts," just ordinary strikes delivered with conviction to vital areas.

IMO, you have to be CAREFUL. I think a strike to the head in this case, for example, could have done the same job as the strike to the neck area but without the near-lethal results.

But then again, that was a VERY SERIOUS situation. Better safe than sorry. I think he did right by erring on the side of too much force as opposed to ending up a stabbing victim in his own jail.

I don't think it should have cost the municipality and/or state $200,000. That's just crap. ****ing lawyers. If it was police brutality, that's one thing.

But anyone who initiates an assault with a deadly weapon on a LEO should expect to get their guts stomped out and should have no grounds for a civil case when it happens. 

They should have faced some serious jail time for that assault, not been rewarded for a failed attempt on the life of a LEO.

/end rant


----------



## zDom (Mar 16, 2007)

/continue rant

FURTHERMORE

if his description is true, it seems everything he did was a legitimate response to end the threat(s)  no punitive techniques.

/really end rant this time


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (Mar 16, 2007)

Glad the good guy was not hurt or worse.


----------



## Shaderon (Mar 16, 2007)

zDom said:


> But anyone who initiates an assault with a deadly weapon on a LEO should expect to get their guts stomped out and should have no grounds for a civil case when it happens.
> 
> They should have faced some serious jail time for that assault, not been rewarded for a failed attempt on the life of a LEO.


 


zDom said:


> /continue rant
> 
> FURTHERMORE
> 
> ...


 

I completely agree with you guys.


----------



## Drac (Mar 16, 2007)

zDom said:


> But anyone who initiates an assault with a deadly weapon on a LEO should expect to get their guts stomped out and should have no grounds for a civil case when it happens.


 
Rant on brother, rant on..THIS is one of the reasons/examples why I train and will continue doing so for as long as I can...Also NO ONE goes in the back of my cruiser UNLESS they are checked..If I put the cuffs on you, you are getting frisked...Officer safety *MUST *be a *PRIORITY..*The new rookies coming out of the academy should have had that drilled into their heads *DAILY*....


----------



## MetalStorm (Mar 16, 2007)

I think he did right, I dont think they should have gotten any money out of it. If someone is attacking you with a knife my first assumption would be that they are trying to kill me.

I agree that the shot to the neck was possibly a bit excessive but I would not hold that against him whatsoever, sure saying if you would have done this it would have probably gotten the same result without so much damage to the person but when you are afraid for your life your not going to stand there and think about the hits you could use on the guy, atleast for me I think I would just react and go with instinct and do whatever it takes.

You may regret it or think about how you could have handled the situation better after the fact, but hey, atleast your still alive. If he would have hesitated more than he did who knows what would have happened.

If anything I would think the blame should go more to the people who did the processing and should have found the knife, You cant be perfect all the time and mistakes happen but I dont get how people get punished for defending themselves even in extreme cases where the attacker gets seriously injured. Its almost like legally you have to be the one that gets hurt the most to look like the victim.


----------



## lenatoi (Mar 16, 2007)

Was this recorded? - congrats on staying alive. Keep that posotive attitude.


----------



## Bigshadow (Mar 16, 2007)

zDom said:


> But anyone who initiates an assault with a deadly weapon on a LEO should expect to get their guts stomped out and should have no grounds for a civil case when it happens.




I totally agree with you!  IMO, they got what they deserved (the boot to groin and neck stuff, not the money part).


----------



## lenatoi (Mar 16, 2007)

they didn't get what they deserved! - as pointed out, - they got $200,000! It's rediculous!


----------



## Adept (Mar 16, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Glad the good guy was not hurt or worse.



Theres a small part of me (well, perhaps not so small) that is glad the bad guy ended up with his eggs permanently scrambled as well...


----------



## Bigshadow (Mar 16, 2007)

lenatoi said:


> they didn't get what they deserved! - as pointed out, - they got $200,000! It's rediculous!



As noted in my post.


----------



## KempoGuy06 (Mar 16, 2007)

WOW. This ties right in to my thread. I thank God that the person is safe and had I been in that situation I would have done the same thing. It is crazy that these *******s got money. 

for those who havent seen this thread here it ties in to what this thread discusses

B


----------



## jdinca (Mar 16, 2007)

The system broke down and he almost paid for it with his life. As it is, it probably had some mental and emotional affects. 

They got what they deserved. The damage sustained was probably worse for them than jail time would have been, especially the first guy.

Tell him he did a great job and we salute his service to the public. Tell him also not to let a screwed up judicial system make him bitter.


----------



## lenatoi (Mar 16, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> As noted in my post.


sorry


----------



## Ninjamom (Mar 16, 2007)

Brad, I am so sorry your friend had to deal with this, and extremely glad that he is still here in one piece to tell us all about it.

And no, a shot to the neck was in no way excessive: if I had been in that situation, with a GUN, and someone had pulled knife on me, he would have been in a lot worse condition.  So, no, ANY type of unarmed maneuver in a life-or-death situation against a knife-wielder would not be excessive IMHO.


----------



## JBrainard (Mar 16, 2007)

MetalStorm said:


> Its almost like legally you have to be the one that gets hurt the most to look like the victim.





lenatoi said:


> they didn't get what they deserved! - as pointed out, - they got $200,000! It's rediculous!



It's more than rediculous, it's sick.


----------



## zDom (Mar 16, 2007)

Oh, I completely AGREE the neck shot was not excessive in this case!

Hindsight is always 20-20, though and from THAT perspective, a head shot probably would have worked out as well. But in a empty hand vs knife situation, I'd rather err on the side of "excessive" than "not enough" and end up in a pine box.

My point is that it is just something to think about (how hurtful a neck/throat shot can be!) when selecting a technique in a situation that is not quite as dire, say a drunk taking a swing in a bar, for example.


----------



## Ninjamom (Mar 16, 2007)

Good point, Scott, and please excuse me if I came across as if I were taking offense at your post/view.  That was not my intent.


----------



## zDom (Mar 16, 2007)

Ninjamom said:


> Good point, Scott, and please excuse me if I came across as if I were taking offense at your post/view.  That was not my intent.



Nah, I didn't take it that way. I just thought I would clarify what I was trying to get across in my initial post.


----------



## Bigshadow (Mar 16, 2007)

zDom said:


> Oh, I completely AGREE the neck shot was not excessive in this case!
> 
> Hindsight is always 20-20, though and from THAT perspective, a head shot probably would have worked out as well. But in a empty hand vs knife situation, I'd rather err on the side of "excessive" than "not enough" and end up in a pine box.
> 
> My point is that it is just something to think about (how hurtful a neck/throat shot can be!) when selecting a technique in a situation that is not quite as dire, say a drunk taking a swing in a bar, for example.



I certainly didn't know a throat strike could be that damaging...  The story was definitely insightful!


----------



## Bigshadow (Mar 16, 2007)

lenatoi said:


> sorry




No worries!


----------



## Brad Dunne (Mar 16, 2007)

I will gladly pass on all the good thoughts to my student. zDom hit on a major point that many people either overlook or honestly don't have a clue about and that is the distruction that can be delivered by a trained practicioner. Most folks kind of get caught up in the movie or ring fights. They don't actually realize that on the street, or in this case, in the jail, were not dealing with super conditioned athletes or movie action hero's, were dealing with the average every day person. To be honest, the shots that were delivered would probably do just as much damage to those trained people also. Bottom line is that no matter how much training one may have, it will almost always come down to gross motor skills and favorite techniques, unless one fights everyday for real. This incident somewhat validates that position. We spent over 2 years training 3-4 nights a week in Hapkido (takedowns, throws, arm bars and such) and when the "you know what" hit the fan, he reverted back to the very basics of kick/punch training. I have always subscribed to this mindset and inturn have attempted to convey this attitude on to other's. It usually takes something of this nature, a real altercation, to convince people of this positioning. 

I hope that this thread will offer some value to those that participate here at MT. :asian:


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 16, 2007)

Drac said:


> Rant on brother, rant on..THIS is one of the reasons/examples why I train and will continue doing so for as long as I can...Also NO ONE goes in the back of my cruiser UNLESS they are checked..If I put the cuffs on you, you are getting frisked...Officer safety *MUST *be a *PRIORITY..*The new rookies coming out of the academy should have had that drilled into their heads *DAILY*....


Ditto.

I'd be pissed off at the guys on the street that didn't SEARCH the arrestees.  I know it get's hairy -- but SEARCH PRISONERS.  If you're taking them into custody, a cop in the US has full authority to search that person.  And has every responsibility to do so!

I don't know procedures where Brad's student works; at our jail, all prisoners are searched a second time when they enter the facility.  (I'm assuming the cop searched 'em on the street.)  That search often does find something missed on the street; it's under better light, in a much more controlled environment.  Then, if they're booked in, they get searched AGAIN before they go into holding.

Now... I do have a small crique for Brad's student.  To begin with -- he did a fantastic job handling the situation, and I don't give a rat's hind end about the s***head with brain damage.  He's lucky he's not dead -- 'cause he tried to kill a cop.  But, I don't like that he was handling two guys who apparently hadn't been searched by himself.  It sounds like he was complacent -- and I've been there, too.  One of the last guys I fought in patrol (I'm currently a detective) freaked out -- and only in hindsight did I see the signs he was screaming at me that he was going to be violent.  I'll reiterate a training truism -- COMPLACENCY KILLS.


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 16, 2007)

MetalStorm said:


> I think he did right, I dont think they should have gotten any money out of it. If someone is attacking you with a knife my first assumption would be that they are trying to kill me.
> 
> * I agree that the shot to the neck was possibly a bit excessive *but I would not hold that against him whatsoever, sure saying if you would have done this it would have probably gotten the same result without so much damage to the person but when you are afraid for your life your not going to stand there and think about the hits you could use on the guy, atleast for me I think I would just react and go with instinct and do whatever it takes.
> 
> ...



*BULL EXCREMENT.*  There's absolutely no way that the shot to the neck was excessive; the guy had a knife and was trying to kill the officer.  Lethal force was absolutely justified.  The officer did a fantastic job handling the situation.  My only critique was meant to learn from it, and avoid a repeat.

Now that I've got that out of the way... I don't have a problem with your statements about solid & justified self defense being punished.  Unfortunately, it's often cheaper for the government to pay out rather than fight, even with a solid case.  The IA investigation was inevitable -- or would be with agencies in my area -- but the outcome was right.  Which is how it's supposed to be.  It's just too bad that more agencies won't fight the solid cases to deter the bogus ones.


----------



## KenpoTex (Mar 16, 2007)

I think the officer in this situation did an excellent job...

The guys clearly demonstrated that they were trying to kill him, he responded appropriately given the circumstances.  

If he had killed them, that's their fault...(I'm personally a little sad that he didn't).  Anyone that says his actions were excessive needs to re-think their opinion.  They pulled a weapon on him...they deserve whatever he can dish out.


----------



## Sukerkin (Mar 16, 2007)

A most enlightening thread, gentlemen :tup:.

I can't believe that someone who, it is clear, attempted to kill an officer of the law, got rewarded for it!  

Okay, I know I'm glossing over a lot there - the poor fellow (desperately trying to be compassionate here) ended up the worse for wear and will obviously need care.  But still ...

I agree with the general sentiment of other posters on this - if you're in trouble with the law then your best bet is cooperation.  If you can't do that, then whatever you receive from officers defending themselves is your own responsibility.

I know, in a more dispassionate sense, that the general populous need to be defended from the possibility of the police being used as an implement of oppression rather than protection but to turn that on it's head so badly as happened here beggars belief.


----------



## theletch1 (Mar 16, 2007)

I always make it a point to explain EXACTLY what damage could, and probably will, result from each technique that I teach...but only after the student runs through it nice and slow a couple of times.  I want them to see how "easy" it is to make the technique work on a compliant uke who knows how to fall or roll and then tell them exactly which bones and/or joints would be, not just unjured, but destroyed on the street.  This is always done while looking each student dead in the eyes so that the idea that I'm blowing smoke does not come into effect.  If you are training for self defense and have not taken a long hard look at the potential damage that your techniques have been designed to do then you are not only dangerous, you're irresponsible.  The LEO in the initial thread used his techniques very effectively and nearly fatally in the way they were INTENDED to be used.  He did not act excessively, as proven by IA.  

The idea that his unit decided that it was not only preferably not to charge at least one of the jackasses with attempting to murder an officer but to pay them off makes me want to scream!  To all of you on this site that are law enforcement officers I want to say Thank you.  You are doing a thankless job for a society that has decided that you must protect and serve an unappreciating public with one arm tied behind your back and you feet tied together.  I wouldn't do it but I'm very thankful that there are those that will.


----------



## exile (Mar 16, 2007)

My take:

(1) a hard-working, conscientious LEO was badly let down by rotten procedure, and insult was added to injury when full-metal justice was rejected in favor of appeasement. 

(2) this LEO responded in exactly the right way: in the face of a deadly threat, and outnumbered two to one, he made excellent use of strikes to vulnerable points and saved his own innocent life as a consequence. More power _to_ him!

(3) The judicial system in this country is horrifically damaged, if in view of (1) and (2), the perps got substantial $$ and the LEO had to undergo exaggerated scrutiny as a result of the incident in question.

I'm glad to see that my fellow MAists on this thread are totally supportive of this officer and the choices he made. That he had to undergo the burden of proof, as it appears, is judicial lunacy in action.

And there is a fourth point, for anyone who cares to take notice:

(4) In the course of totally legitimate self-protection, the LEO in Brad's thread responded with some basic TMA-style strikes to vulnerable places and completely laid out two nasty pieces of work intent, so far as we can see, on killing him. Next time someone makes a nasty flippant comment about the effectiveness of TMAs, or the possibility of neutralizing an oppo by strikes to weak points using TMA techs, just refer them to this thread and ask them to think about the implications.


----------



## pstarr (Mar 17, 2007)

Damned good job!  

    I know - I spent years in the law enforcement field...ALWAYS (always, always, always) SEARCH EVERY INMATE, even if he was supposedly searched previously.  Never let two of 'em strip or dress together - keep them separated.

 But other than that, he did a fine job and obeyed the first rule of law enforcement..."Go home at the end your shift."


----------

