# Bujikan Budo Taijutsu or Hapkido?



## DTLG (Jul 5, 2009)

What are the positives and negatives of each? I am going to start martial arts and want to choose between the 2. If you have done either tell me what it is about each that makes it effective and why you liked or disliked it. Would both of these work in a self defense situation? Also, how do you think a striking technique would compliment both Bujikan Budo Taijutsu and Hapkido?
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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jul 5, 2009)

> What are the positives and negatives of each


Bujinkan:
Pros: Has striking,grappling,chokes,throws,weapons from 9 arts giving unique aspect from them. 

Hapkido 

Pros: Composes of jointlocks,throws,pins,strikes,throws,weapons.

The difference between them is the mannerism on how they approach an opponent. Hapkido seems to me to blend in harmony with an opponent like Aikido(Both Ueshiba and Sul trained in Daito ryu and they kept in contact after as well.) 

Cons: everything has cons so it might depend on what it is you are lookiing for. Example if you are looking for specialize sword work then the Bujinkan would be more ideal then Hapikido. 



> Would both of these work in a self defense situation?


 
A common question ask in Martial arts. The thing is Martial arts are tools that give you a better chance to complete a task. The analogy of say hammering a nail into a wall is harder to do with your hand but easier with a tool like a hammer. The same goes in an encounter with self defense. You use the tool that is right for the job and have a better chance of self defense.



> Also, how do you think a striking technique would compliment both Bujikan Budo Taijutsu and Hapkido?


 Both have striking already. I do not understand the question.


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## DTLG (Jul 5, 2009)

I just meant I am going to be doing muay thai too. Anyways, I know Bujinkan does weapons. I'm not deciding on one or the other because of that. The main deciding point is strictly hand to and comabt so I would like to know which one you guys feel is better in a self defense situation.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jul 5, 2009)

> The main deciding point is strictly hand to and comabt so I would like to know which one you guys feel is better in a self defense situation.


 To be honest it depends on the person's ability to make the art work in a self defense situation. Plenty of people have used Hapkido and Bujinkan in self defense situations as well as plenty of people who used Muay Thai in self defense so there really is no better one.

The differences between the arts is mainly in the approach in self defense. Try both and see which one you enjoy more ask the teacher to show you self defense applications and see which one fits your personality best.


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## DTLG (Jul 5, 2009)

Ok thanks. I am going to start Bujinkan first in a few months when football is over. I was going to take Muay thai no matter what just for fun. I just couldn't decide between Bujinkan or Hapkido.


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## jks9199 (Jul 5, 2009)

DTLG said:


> I just meant I am going to be doing muay thai too. Anyways, I know Bujinkan does weapons. I'm not deciding on one or the other because of that. The main deciding point is strictly hand to and comabt so I would like to know which one you guys feel is better in a self defense situation.


There's no way to answer that because the realities of violence are too complex.  Various people have made all three arts work for self defense -- and others have failed with all three.

However, I suspect that you'll find it easier to blend Hapkido with Muay Thai than either with Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.  BBT is a complex, whole body art and system of movement, and I think there's a good chance of conflicting principles.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 5, 2009)

DTLG said:


> What are the positives and negatives of each? I am going to start martial arts and want to choose between the 2. If you have done either tell me what it is about each that makes it effective and why you liked or disliked it. Would both of these work in a self defense situation? Also, how do you think a striking technique would compliment both Bujikan Budo Taijutsu and Hapkido?


I have not practiced Bujinkan, but I have had exposure to Jinenkan Taijutsu and I currently study hapkido.

The two are not dissimilar, at least in the little exposure that I have had to Jinenkan Taijutsu.  Both have strikes, both have weapons, both have grapples.  I found hapkido to be more cirucular, but my exposure to Jinenkan is comparatively very brief. 

I know that Jinenkan comes from Bujinkan, and if what I have seen of it is similar to Bujinkan, then I would say that betweent the two, it is rather a toss up.  Depends on whether you are more comfortable with Japanese traditions or Korean traditions, both of which are wonderful.

Best wishes,

Daniel


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## DTLG (Jul 5, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Bujinkan:
> Pros: Has striking,grappling,chokes,throws,weapons from 9 arts giving unique aspect from them.
> 
> Hapkido
> ...


 

Doesnt Bininkan also have joint locks? I am looking for the martial art that will take down an attacker the fastest and most effectively.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jul 6, 2009)

Yes the Bujinkan has jointlocks. I said grappling  but I guess I should have said jointlocks instead.


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## Chris Parker (Jul 6, 2009)

Hi,

Okay, this may just be the mood I'm in right now, but here we go (you all have to sit through this):

1: There is no ultimate martial art for any situation. Stop looking for it. Stop trying to compare which is the "deadliest", which is "more devestating", which "takes someone down faster and harder". It is up to the individual, and how they train, not the art.

2: Combining various arts before a great deal of experience is gained is not advised. Each different art will move based on the guiding philosophy, and this dictates the actions that each art uses. Muay Thai uses a very different philosophy than either Hapkido or Taijutsu (Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, off-shoot), which then have quite different philosophies themselves. If you attempt to use your Muay Thai in a Taijutsu environment (say, my school for instance), you will very quickly be shown the difference. And until you have a good handle on one or the other, you will find that that will happen. And it'll take you that much longer to get good at one of them (whichever you personally believe to be more powerful on an unconscious level will probably see you advance quicker in).

3: For the love of... You know, I'll leave this simple. DO NOT CHOOSE AN ART!!!!!!

Right, now I'll explain a bit. Have you ever watched old Kung Fu movies, where they say "My kung fu is better than your kung fu/My teachers kung fu is stronger than your teachers"? How about a classic Kurosawa film, the Seven Samurai? The young samurai wanting to follow the older samurai with the shaved head? What does this show us, and why am I talking about old movies?

Basically, in the old days, you wouldn't seek out a particular system or style, you would seek out a particular teacher or school (with a very good reputation). This may upset some Wing Chun guys out there, but Bruse Lee would have been Bruce Lee no matter what art he studied. Wing Chun certainly influenced his development, but he trained in it not because it was the best, but because it was what was available, and there were very good teachers available to him. Hatsumi did not seek out Togakure Ryu, he sought out Takamatsu Sensei.

Look for a teacher you can respect, and learn from. No matter what art. It just doesn't matter.

4: Your profile states that you are trying to decide your art, but gives no indication as to your age or prior experience, so I am going to assume that you are young (maybe early twenties, probably mid-to late teens) with no prior experience in martial arts. So if that is the case (and I apologise if it isn't) then you simply have no basis to compare systems. And no amount of words from us here will help. Go to a school, talk with the instructor(s), watch the students, check out the atmosphere, find out what you like and groove to. That is the only way you will get your answer. Not from us. Sorry.


Okay, that was a bit harsh, but maybe necessary. I may copy and paste parts for the future questions of this ilk...


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## blackxpress (Jul 6, 2009)

Great post, Chris!  I've been thinking about this a lot lately.  When I first started in MA I wanted to study a Korean art because my wife is Korean and I've lived among Koreans for more than 30 yrs.  Unfortunately, in the small town where we lived the only Korean MA was a TKD school with a really bad reputation.  By all accounts the instructor was a real jerk and it showed up in the way his students conducted themselves in public.  The only other school available was a Wado-ryu school.  I knew nothing about Wado but met the Sensei and that's all it took.  He was a great guy, very humble yet with an air of self-confidence.  Very engaging.  He convinced me to give it a try and I fell in love with the arts in general and Wado in particular because of him.  He taught me a lot.

After training with him for a couple of years I moved here to SW Ohio.  There are no Wado schools here but there seems to be at least one of everything else.  I tried to find something similar to Wado just so the transition would be easier.  Not so easy.  I finally decided to look for an instructor instead of an art.  After meeting several instructors and watching a lot of classes I joined a Kuk Sul Do school.  Not so much because of the art itself but because I was so impressed with Grandmaster Yang.  He's a super nice man and obviously very knowledgeable.  I watched him run a class and I also watched one of the other instructors run a class.  They both have an incredible amount of poise.  Their technique and their form are impressive to say the least.  Their classes are pretty large but their students seem to be well disciplined.  You can learn a lot about a school by watching the students.  If the students look sharp it says a lot about the instructor.

So then, I am now studying Kuk Sul Do and couldn't be happier.  Never mind it isn't just like Wado.  It's similar enough.  I have the utmost confidence in Grandmaster Yang's ability make me a better Martial artist than I am today.  That's what really matters.


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## Carol (Jul 6, 2009)

DTLG said:


> What are the positives and negatives of each? I am going to start martial arts and want to choose between the 2. If you have done either tell me what it is about each that makes it effective and why you liked or disliked it. Would both of these work in a self defense situation? Also, how do you think a striking technique would compliment both Bujikan Budo Taijutsu and Hapkido?



Are either of these what you really want to be doing?   You mention a keen interest in Muay Thai...training in that alone can be quite a handful.  Have you thought about just doing the Muay Thai by itself?


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Jul 6, 2009)

I'm going to have to agree with Carol on this one, a person can get along just fine with one art. I know that cross-training has become pretty popular these days, but if you say you just began training in Muay Thai, looking for another school to enroll in doesn't mean you're cross training, it means you're looking for a quick fix to the holes you have. Try Muay Thai alone for a few years, see if you can fill those holes on your own, and then see if you have a desire to train in anything else.

I train in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, and I love it to pieces, I've been there for years and have never once thought of quitting. Ironically enough, however, I have endeavored into learning Hapkido, but the desire only sprung up recently, and not because of some desire to mix it with BBT, to create some superior art, but simply to learn the art because I think it is beautiful.

To finalize, stay with Muay Thai for a while, get proficient in it, and then see if you want to take another art.


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## Omar B (Jul 6, 2009)

blackxpress said:


> So then, I am now studying Kuk Sul Do and couldn't be happier.  Never mind it isn't just like Wado.  It's similar enough.  I have the utmost confidence in Grandmaster Yang's ability make me a better Martial artist than I am today.  That's what really matters.



Is that at all like Kuk Sool Won?

But yeah, you gotta give an art at least till brown belt or 4 years before you start shopping around.  No matter how great it sounds having mastery of many arts rushing it just messes with your form in one way or another slowing your progress.


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 7, 2009)

I got my start in Tae Kwon Do in the 80's, but it was never my favorite. The last school that I attended formally was called the Bloomington Karate Center in Bloomington, Minnesota. That school taught both Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido.

My main preference though has always been the Japanese and Chinese martial arts with an emphasis on things relating to the ninja and the Samurai. 

Since the time that I have studied Tae Kwon Do I have been able to acquire the complete black belt ninjutsu home study course from Shihan Richard Van Donk and I think that it is pretty good. I also have stuff from Robert Bussey as well as some stuff relating to both Goju Ryu Karate and Aikido.

I can't say which you should study. All that I can say is as to what I have studied and experienced and to give you my personal opinions and impressions based upon what I know and have studied. Out of all of them I like the Bujinkan the best personally as it is a more complete system and it is combat based. Ninjutsu unlike many of the other martial arts has retained it's military and combat effectiveness because it has not been watered down or converted into a sport like many of the other martial arts and as such it is a good choice if you are looking for practical street self defense tactics and techniques.

If your choice is more of a sport nature or a spiritual nature than any of the other martial arts will do just fine. 

No matter what martial art you choose, always make sure that you are choosing it for the right reasons and not the wrong reasons. If you want to learn the martial arts just to prove that you are tough and so that you can bully people then the martial arts probably is not something for you at this time. If it is for self defense, sport or even spiritual growth then you are on the right track. 

Do yourself a favor and just remember not to get so caught up in all of the belt business as what you have around your waist is not going to matter much to someone out on the street in a real fight. All they care about is hurting you and in winning, not in what color belt you have around your waist or even as to how many bricks or boards you can break.


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Aug 8, 2009)

rdonovan1 said:


> I got my start in Tae Kwon Do in the 80's, but it was never my favorite. The last school that I attended formally was called the Bloomington Karate Center in Bloomington, Minnesota. That school taught both Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido.
> 
> My main preference though has always been the Japanese and Chinese martial arts with an emphasis on things relating to the ninja and the Samurai.
> 
> ...



Just so you know, Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido have nothing to do with the Samurai or the Ninja, as they're both Korean arts, developed significantly after the fall of feudal Japan.

Secondly, I wouldn't put much stock into any "video training" you've had, as those are more tools for existing students of the X-kan's, with a basic grasp of the...well the basics.


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## Bruno@MT (Aug 8, 2009)

I don't know how Bujinkan does things, and Ihave not yet had the chance to assess the Genbukan DVDs, but I can say for certain that anyone using the Ninpo fundamentals book without actual training is going to get a big surprise.

The book contains many intentional mistakes, in order to make the book useful only to actual Genbukan students. For the grades I am studying now (10th and 9th kyu) I have spotted many intentional errors in the names, the text (which is really terse anyway) and the pictures.

And without anyone to correct your mistakes and tell you how to correct your errors, video training is really not comparable as actual training. Btw without a training partner, how can you practise tai sabaki, locks, throws, pressure points, etc...


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 8, 2009)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> Just so you know, Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido have nothing to do with the Samurai or the Ninja, as they're both Korean arts, developed significantly after the fall of feudal Japan.
> 
> Secondly, I wouldn't put much stock into any "video training" you've had, as those are more tools for existing students of the X-kan's, with a basic grasp of the...well the basics.


 
You're right about Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido being Korean arts and I have nothing against them at all except for the fact that in my book they are way too flashy and are more for show than they are for practical self defense. Between the two I think that Hapkido has more practical applications than does Tae Kwon Do. Both are good, but the problem that I see with Tae Kwon Do is that it emphasizes too many high kicks and where I'm orginally from that is not good especially in the winter time as the ice and snow are more likely to defeat you before you even have a chance to do anything against your opponent.

I tend to prefer the Japanese and Chinese arts more as to me they just seem to have more practical and spiritual applications than does Tae Kwon and Hapkido. I like the Japanese systems because they tend to emphasize more of the practical hands on combat tactics and techniques. The Chinese systems are good as well in my opinion, but like Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido they are still a bit flashy and more for show than anything else. The one thing that I really like about the Chinese systems is that they are very spiritual based and can really help you to grow spiritually, mentally and emotionally if you know how to apply it properly to your training.

You're also right about the videos as nothing can really replace actual training in a good school with a good instructor that really knows what he/she is talking about. 

The video's do have one distinct advantage that a school does not and that is with the video's they can help you to learn and to grow as they tend to allow you view different techniques ahead of time and commit them to memory and practice and that is good because private lessons at most schools are pretty expensive.

I'm not saying that one should do one or the other at all. All that I am saying is that video's can be used to supplement your training and can help you to dramatically improve both inside an outside of the dojo and even Shihan Richard Van Donk once said that people who viewed his videos outside of the dojo often improved dramatically and in a far shorter period of time than they would have if they had relied strictly on the dojo for their sole training.

The nice thing about video's is that they let you pause the tape and to practice what you have just learned and that thereby helps you to improve in the dojo as well. 

I kind of know what he is talking about because I have taken group classess in Tae Kwon Do in a formal dojang under the supervision of an actual instructor and I more often than not tended to get very confused about a great number of techniques that they showed me in class. 

When I wasn't in class I tried to practice the hyung's by as much as possible, but it sure would have been nice if they had made video's that I could have bought and viewed at home as that would have helped me to remember and to practice much of what I had been learning in class and would have greatly speeded up my training and would have greatly helped me to improve much faster.

I have asked them about making training video's and they have at this point in time declined citing that it would be too cost prohibitive for them at this point in time to produce such video's.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 8, 2009)

Hi rdonovan1,

Just out of interest, what experience do you have in Ninjutsu? From what I've seen here, you haven't actually trained in a dojo at this point, just some tapes from Bussey and RVD, is that right? The reason I ask is that your posts thus far have had a fair amount of ill-information in them, and wouldn't like that to continue when there is better knowledge around for you.

To begin with, which Bussey tapes do you have? If they are the first series he put out (Ninja Weapons Tactics Vol 1-8), then that is probably about 25-50% Bujinkan technology at best, the rest including Bobs' own interpretation of combat, drawn from his experience with Ninjutsu, as well as Tae Kwon Do (his original art, he owned a school and taught when he was 15 years old) and a number of other sources. If it is the later series (RBWI), then the Ninjutsu aspect was even further removed. I wouldn't look to them as Ninjutsu tapes, just as a reference point for Bob's approach to combat and training.

With RVD's course, that has been discussed many times here, and as far as home study courses go, they're okay. But they will never take the place of a real instructor. You listed a number of the advantages you feel are in a video, if I may, I would like to counter with some disadvantages:

The main problem with learning from tapes is that they cannot correct you, they cannot show you in a different way (if you are not "getting it"), they will not take into account your personal body size, or strengths and weaknesses. For this you need an instructor.

And in order to get the "spiritual/emotional" growth, that will not happen away from others in most situations (for the record, the way that does have a "spiritual" underpinning is if it is a conscious removal of self from the material world and it's distractions in order to achieve a "pure" view of the world. It is one method, and rarely one for most people. Often better is a "pushing" of personal boundaries, which cannot be achieved by being apart from the world... Okay, that was an odd little tangent). So the point would be get to a school, otherwise you aren't really studying Ninjutsu or the Bujinkan arts, nor are you getting anywhere near the aims youare stating. 

As for RVDs comments about people who watch his tapes improve faster than those who don't... you do realise he is trying to sell these, yes? And note that it is that they improve "faster than those who relied solely on dojo training", implying that the tapes are a supplement. If you are not in a school, then you will not improve anywhere near as fast, or get anywhere near as good if all you use are the tapes. But the way it works is this: The unconscious mind cannot seperate fantasy from reality. This is bad in that if you fill it with bad information, it won't make a distinction, but it is also good because it means that if you "imagine" doing something (performing techniques exactly correctly, for example), the unconscious will take that as real as if you had performed the techniques in reality. 

There have been studies of College Basketball players practising free throws. One group practiced for thirty minutes each day, another imagined free-throws for thirty minutes a day, another practiced and imagined for thrity minutes a day, and the last didn't practise or imagine at all. After the study was done, the one that didn't practise or imagine made practically no improvement, those that imagined only made a reaonable improvement, those that physically practised only made slightly more improvement, and those that practised and imagined made significantly more improvement. But it should be remembered here that even those who didn't practise or imagine, and those that imagined only, already had a degree of experience and skill in throwing free throws, so the results reflected that. If you don't have any real experience, then the tapes will help even less.


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 8, 2009)

Chris Parker said:


> Hi rdonovan1,
> 
> Just out of interest, what experience do you have in Ninjutsu? From what I've seen here, you haven't actually trained in a dojo at this point, just some tapes from Bussey and RVD, is that right? The reason I ask is that your posts thus far have had a fair amount of ill-information in them, and wouldn't like that to continue when there is better knowledge around for you.
> 
> ...


 

Hi Chris,

It's nice to meet you. The Bussey video's that I have are the one's that Robert Bussey made in the 1980's and it is the complete set. Like him I got my start in Tae Kwon Do in the martial arts and that is as far as I have gotten in terms of formal training.

You are correct about actually training in a dojo being better than video's, but let's not throw away the video's just yet as they still have their value as well. 

You are probably right about RVD promoting his video's as a way of making money and I agree that formal training is always far superior. I do however believe that he is also correct about the video's enhancing your training.

You are also right about the subconsious mind. That has been the subject of study for me for about the last 5 or 6 years. Due to my interest in women and the dating scene I have been studying from some of the top pick up artists in the world about how to pick up women and one of the guys that I have been studying from has introduced me to a branch of psychology called Neuro Linguistic Programming which was developed by people like Dr. Richard Bandler and Dr. John Grinder. 

Neither of them are martial artists at all, but both know and understand the subconscious mind very well as they have studied from some of the worlds best psychiatrists and psychotherapists in the world and at least one of them truly understood how the mind really worked and as to how to influence the mind. I guess that you could say that NLP is a lot like zen as both tend to get you to form visual representations in your mind of things to come.

I don't know if you have ever read the book by Chuck Norris called 'The Power Within', but I have and it is really good. In that book he talks about how he used visualization techniques like what you described and like what NLP tends to describe to help him win fights and I think that he is very right about that as the Samurai used to do that as well. 

I have to admit that it has been quite a while since I have trained formally, but that does not stop me from trying to learn what I can outside of the dojo and just as soon as I can I am planning on returning to the dojo. You are also right that my Bunjinkan training (if you can call it that) has only consisted of the video's. I would have trained in Bunjinkan when I lived in Minnesota, but at that time there were no such schools for it and getting training formally in Bunjinkan can be problematic as there really are not that many good schools out there that teach it and that are actually licensed by Hatsumi. Those schools that are out there are few and far between and that is done for a reason and that is to help protect the art according Hatsumi sensei. 

One thing that I like about both NLP and the martial arts as well as the game is that the all have something in common and that is that both have patterns. In the martial arts they tend to go by many names like kata and hyung for example. In NLP they are just called patterns. Both also tend to teach you to think on your feet and both the martial arts and the dating game both emphasize body language as that is important not only in a fight but in the dating world as well. 

Both the dating game and the martial arts tend to also emphasize self improvement and that is why I came to this forum as I tend to understand the martial arts a lot better than I do the game. 

There's also one other thing that you mentioned that kind of caught my eye and that is what you said about what you put into the mind being very true. The mind is in many ways a lot like a computer and what you put into it is what you will get out of it just like a computer. At one time I used to study computer programmng so as result I tend to understand that concept. I am however very out of practice with both computers and with the martial arts and I am hoping to get back into both very soon.


Robert Donovan


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## Chris Parker (Aug 8, 2009)

Hey Robert,

Friendly word of advice, PU really shouldn't discussed here. Not a cool topic, really a DLV. Remember that this is not a lair, and there are other sensabilities. PM me if you want to discuss this stuff, though. Gaming is similar and different, but the most important thing is to realise the social situation (even on a forum like this... the calibration is a bit off).

Other than that, welcome, enjoy, and I get the feeling that we will have some very interesting discussions as time goes on!


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 8, 2009)

Chris Parker said:


> Hey Robert,
> 
> Friendly word of advice, PU really shouldn't discussed here. Not a cool topic, really a DLV. Remember that this is not a lair, and there are other sensabilities. PM me if you want to discuss this stuff, though. Gaming is similar and different, but the most important thing is to realise the social situation (even on a forum like this... the calibration is a bit off).
> 
> Other than that, welcome, enjoy, and I get the feeling that we will have some very interesting discussions as time goes on!


 

I'm way ahead of you on that. I hope that we will have the chance to talk via PM very soon.


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