# Two Taekwondo contestants have altercation before contest



## mango.man (Jul 3, 2011)

So, anyone that was there have the full scoop:

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_18403624?source=rss

Displaying unsportsman-like conduct, two competitors at the USA Taekwondo Junior Olympics, hosted at the San Jose Convention Center, jumped the gun Saturday when they got in to a fight before their scheduled event.


The two teenage boys, 15 years old and 16 years old, mixed it up outside the ring just after 3 p.m. Saturday, said San Jose police Sgt. Jason Dwyer said.


One was injured badly enough to be taken to Santa Clara Valley Medical for treatment but his condition is unknown. The second competitor was arrested though it is unclear whether charges will be filed.


It's unknown what started the fight. Police withheld details about the incident because the boys are juveniles.


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## armortkd (Jul 3, 2011)

That's really unfortunate to hear about!!!


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## mango.man (Jul 3, 2011)

2 Major USAT events in a row requiring police intervention.  I am sure everyone remembers the USA coach sucker punching the Canadian fighter from behind at the US Open in February.  How completely pathetic.  I also heard that a parent of a second place fighter in a 12-13 BB girls division tried to rip the gold medal off of the first place fighter's neck at the picture podium shouting about how her little girl should have won.  Also just lots of obnoxious behavior from other fighters and parents booing and hissing each other.

So glad that we had more important things to do this year than even drive just a few hours just to go and watch.  What a freak show USAT events have become.


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## Twin Fist (Jul 3, 2011)

boy, i sure do wish my kids were involved in this sport..............


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## Cyriacus (Jul 3, 2011)

See now, thats just petty and childish. If you have a dispute, either A: Settle it IN THE TOURNAMENT. Or B: Go organise a Legitimate Bout somewere later.
But rowing before a Competition isnt exactly encouraged by the teachings of Taekwon-Do, or at least not as ive ever seen or heard it.


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## msmitht (Jul 3, 2011)

To much sport and not enough art. It is sad to have such poor discipline and lack of respect. They should receive a ban from competition for at least one competition year.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 4, 2011)

msmitht said:


> To much sport and not enough art. It is sad to have such poor discipline and lack of respect. They should receive a ban from competition for at least one competition year.


Thats phrased much better than what i did. A Ban isnt what they need though, its Discipline. With that, they would have Respect, and there would never have been an issue


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## ralphmcpherson (Jul 4, 2011)

I wonder if their 'altercation' was fought using the WTF ruleset


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## terryl965 (Jul 4, 2011)

I guess the tenets means absolutely nothing in most schools now a days.


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## Poomsaeguy (Jul 4, 2011)

You see this is how information get mixed up! I was there ringside. One boy was sitting in a chair when the other kid roundhouse kicked him in the face, dislocating his jaw and knocking out his two front teeth! The father on the boy who was hit jumped the rail and went after the kid who attached his son.  The two had already fought their fight and the kid who attacked didn't like the out come! We later say the kid and his father ( who really didn't seem that upset) beening removed by the police.


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## Twin Fist (Jul 4, 2011)

on the bright side, at least this kid kicks better than the average cuban TKD olympic fighter.......


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## mango.man (Jul 4, 2011)

Poomsaeguy said:


> You see this is how information get mixed up! I was there ringside. One boy was sitting in a chair when the other kid roundhouse kicked him in the face, dislocating his jaw and knocking out his two front teeth! The father on the boy who was hit jumped the rail and went after the kid who attached his son.  The two had already fought their fight and the kid who attacked didn't like the out come! We later say the kid and his father ( who really didn't seem that upset) beening removed by the police.



You see, that is why I asked for the "full scoop" from anyone that was there.  Because I know that newspapers rarely, if ever, even get 50% of the story right.  Thanks for filling in some of the blanks.


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## Balrog (Jul 4, 2011)

msmitht said:


> To much sport and not enough art. It is sad to have such poor discipline and lack of respect. They should receive a ban from competition for at least one competition year.


If either one of those kids were my student, their belts would be on my desk Monday morning and they would no longer be members of my school.  There is absolutely no excuse for behavior like that and shame on their instructors and parents for not teaching them basic courtesy and respect.


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## Master Dan (Jul 4, 2011)

Poomsaeguy said:


> You see this is how information get mixed up! I was there ringside. One boy was sitting in a chair when the other kid roundhouse kicked him in the face, dislocating his jaw and knocking out his two front teeth! The father on the boy who was hit jumped the rail and went after the kid who attached his son.  The two had already fought their fight and the kid who attacked didn't like the out come! We later say the kid and his father ( who really didn't seem that upset) beening removed by the police.



First thank you for setting the story straight it makes much more sense. The paper should be forced to post a retraction. The actions of the person committing the sucker kick after being upset with the outcome of the match is a classic example of the impact of to much sport mentality related to the money and business of TKD instead of the tradition of mental and spiritual goals for personal development and a commitment to help others and community.

Students imitate what they see and sport TKD has gone from whining and complaining competitors, poor refereeing, & officials to outright corruption in some cases. Add to that parents being allowed to interfere in matches with disrespect and even violent behavior. Monkey See Monkey do years of bad behavior by adults is effecting the youth and you can take the long winded argument it is all the fault of loosing the USTU because of the Non Korean Born people who killed it Bull!! This all started the day that a beautiful traditional art form was commercialized for global expansion to the Olympics and ever single art form and sport involved in it has had scandal and controversy. 

There are just better things to do than have your students be part of this whole charade whats next fighting over Poom Se competition? don't laugh saw a Korean Master ready to go to blows because his little team was not awarded 1st place they wound up giving two first place and they still had to restrain him the next day during awards.


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## mango.man (Jul 4, 2011)

Do people really blame "the sport" and not the violators in this instance?  If so than perhaps we should blame "the martial art" of Taekwondo for all the child molestation that those "martial arts masters" commit because for every sport related TKD incident you can find in the news I bet I can find 10 incidents of some "master of the art" forcibly inserting his penis into some little boy or girl.The blame for incidents like this rest solely on the shoulders of the perpetrators and the USAT for providing and environment where incidents like this can happen with little fear of punishment that is meaningful as well as the parents of the instigator.


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## granfire (Jul 4, 2011)

People blame all kinds of weird things for whatever...
But it's the same patterns that have plagued little league in the past...or the proverbial show moms...or dads....

bad enough when it's 'just' a sport...but a Martial Art...you have a whole new set of tools to work with...
(and crap, isn't self discipline one of the goals?)


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## armortkd (Jul 4, 2011)

Please DO NOT blame the sport of Taekwondo!!! I've become a better person by applying the values of the Art & dedication/goal-setting of the Sport. I'd prefer this as a guide to looking at what exactly led up to the incident (both boys' actions) & then this:

1. The boy that assaulted: mental health issues?
2. Parents: single parent? overbearing parents?
3. Coach/Instructor's Teaching Approach & Team Environment: win at all costs? blame others instead of owning up? it's always the other's fault?

We may find a "reason" but there is absolutely no "excuse" for this!!! What upsets me greatly is the fact that somewhere during this boy's training & competing history, something had to of led the Coach and/or Parents know that this boy was in danger of this type of incident. As for the USAT, they really need to address this. The boy needs to be sanctioned and show proof of professional couseling in anger management before he is allowed to compete again. IMHO


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## taekwondodo (Jul 4, 2011)

I guess Mark K is commenting indirectly to this event on his blog.


> http://usa-taekwondo.us/blogs/blog-...11-junior-olympics-and-national-championships


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## Master Dan (Jul 4, 2011)

There is a special place in Hell for those masters and parents that throw thier kids in the fire for thier personal gain or ego to the olympics allowing sicafants to abuse and rape thier children for thier personal needs. I hope all you bastards rot in hell because you are so low that you need to feed your self in the name of statistics or some crap piece of plastic medal or trophie that feeds you or brings your Dojang money not the children or students. There have been deaths and ireversable damage due to the Olympics and even now some pumped up masters who give money to damaged students to shut them up hoping they will die while they let rape and abuse occure in thier own houses and you know who you are cowards. Take my word if anyone shoots back they are guilty it only confirms it. Don't listen to thier list of high connections and name dropping they are trailer trash of the worst kind and you violate all that is core to martial arts by not being able to see what is unseen giving respect and credibility to thier knowledge because they were able to say they have read this or that or have this library or know this or that GM Bull **** they are Evil and low they belong in a max cell with Bubba in a skirt with lip stick *****!


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## Twin Fist (Jul 5, 2011)

naw, bad sports happen in every sport. I just so happen to hate this one.




mango.man said:


> Do people really blame "the sport" and not the violators in this instance?  If so than perhaps we should blame "the martial art" of Taekwondo for all the child molestation that those "martial arts masters" commit because for every sport related TKD incident you can find in the news I bet I can find 10 incidents of some "master of the art" forcibly inserting his penis into some little boy or girl.The blame for incidents like this rest solely on the shoulders of the perpetrators and the USAT for providing and environment where incidents like this can happen with little fear of punishment that is meaningful as well as the parents of the instigator.


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## miguksaram (Jul 5, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> First thank you for setting the story straight it makes much more sense. The paper should be forced to post a retraction. The actions of the person committing the sucker kick after being upset with the outcome of the match is a classic example of the impact of to much sport mentality related to the money and business of TKD instead of the tradition of mental and spiritual goals for personal development and a commitment to help others and community.



This has more to do with this kid being an @$$ than anything else.  How many incidents happened like this during the weekend?  Two, three, twenty?  If this was an example of sport mentality then we would have seen more incidents like this.  Instead we hear of a report of one bad apple.  Also how do you link sport mentality to the business? Finally why should any TKD school be responsible for the spiritual growth of a community?  We are a martial art not a church.


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## miguksaram (Jul 5, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> There is a special place in Hell for those masters and parents that throw thier kids in the fire for thier personal gain or ego to the olympics allowing sicafants to abuse and rape thier children for thier personal needs.


What the heck are you talking about.  Seriously...you need to refrain from drinking prior to posting.  This is just going off the deep end here.



			
				Dan said:
			
		

> I hope all you bastards rot in hell because you are so low that you need to feed your self in the name of statistics or some crap piece of plastic medal or trophie that feeds you or brings your Dojang money not the children or students. There have been deaths and ireversable damage due to the Olympics and even now some pumped up masters who give money to damaged students to shut them up hoping they will die while they let rape and abuse occure in thier own houses and you know who you are cowards. Take my word if anyone shoots back they are guilty it only confirms it. Don't listen to thier list of high connections and name dropping they are trailer trash of the worst kind and you violate all that is core to martial arts by not being able to see what is unseen giving respect and credibility to thier knowledge because they were able to say they have read this or that or have this library or know this or that GM Bull **** they are Evil and low they belong in a max cell with Bubba in a skirt with lip stick *****!


We should also curse bobsledding too, because there have been deaths and irreversible damage there too.  Perhaps we will curse football as so many young people have died in the past few years in that sport.....oh wait, while we are at it, let's curse basketball some rape and drug charges against those athletes as well.  In fact just ban sports all together.  As your logic clearly shows that it is the root of all evil and it is easier to blame than just the few pricks that actually responsible for their own actions.

Honestly Dan your mentality is more of a factor here.  You want to place blame in a general area.  This allows people to not take personal responsibility for their actions and instead, with the help of people like you, allows them to point to something and blame their actions on that.  "I didn't rape because I am sexual deviant.  I raped because of the sports mentality that TKD instilled me."

Seriously...get a grip.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 5, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> This has more to do with this kid being an @$$ than anything else.


Im inclined to agree - Sore Loser. Didnt like the result, did something stupid.


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## jks9199 (Jul 5, 2011)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful.

jks9199
Super Moderator*


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## wade (Jul 5, 2011)

I was sitting in ring one, about 30 feet away and also watched it go down. What poomsae guys says is correct and the news paper is wrong. The kid was just sitting there when the other walked slowly by and then all of a sudden kicked him in the face. The local reported was standing beside me interviewing a local instructor when it happened and boom, you have your lead story for the night. Considering she was there and interviewed everyone she could it surprises and disapoints me that she still got it wrong.


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## TKDinAK (Jul 5, 2011)

IMO, the attitudes and actions of youngsters in MA are mostly a result  of their parents and their instructor/training. Those adults in this  kid's life should step up and take accountability right alongside him.

My  son is only three years old, and soon I would like for him to start TKD  training with me at some point. If he does, and continues on into his teen  years, I would hope he will be one of the most accountable and respectful students in  his class. His training in those two character assets has already  started long ago... and it's my job to make sure they continue.  Additionally, I would put 100% faith in my current instructor being  lock-step with me in this. It is also my responsibility to make sure whatever instructor he has, the values of the tenets are forefront in his training. And, if my son somehow strays from the path  of accountability and respect, I will not allow him to train in MA. 

Youngsters,  especially teens, can let their emotions get the best of them... and  they WILL say and do stupid things that hurt others. They need to stand  accountable for such acts, and it's the adults in their lives who should be the ones  causing them to do so. Shame on them if they don't.

JMO...


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## sadantkd (Jul 5, 2011)

Balrog said:


> If either one of those kids were my student, their belts would be on my desk Monday morning and they would no longer be members of my school.  There is absolutely no excuse for behavior like that and shame on their instructors and parents for not teaching them basic courtesy and respect.


Why would you arbitrarily punish both kids. Ever if I hadn't just read what the witness said, my first response to this post would have been to ask what if one of the kids was merely defending himself. This is why I despise these zero tolerance policies


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## puunui (Jul 5, 2011)

Poomsaeguy said:


> You see this is how information get mixed up! I was there ringside. One boy was sitting in a chair when the other kid roundhouse kicked him in the face, dislocating his jaw and knocking out his two front teeth! The father on the boy who was hit jumped the rail and went after the kid who attached his son.  The two had already fought their fight and the kid who attacked didn't like the out come! We later say the kid and his father ( who really didn't seem that upset) beening removed by the police.



I heard the kick was half an hour after the match. The competitor who was kicked is a student of Master Jin Suh from New York.


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## puunui (Jul 5, 2011)

armortkd said:


> Please DO NOT blame the sport of Taekwondo!!!



What I think people mean when they blame "sport" vs. "martial art" is they are trying to say that it is a "western" sport attitude as opposed to an eastern or asian cultural or sport attitude or philosophy. In western sports, it is common to see bench clearing fights, people yelling and disrespecting the opposing team or the referees, etc. You don't see so much of that in Asian situations. I see this as a natural consequence of the attempts by some to do away with asian philosophical concepts and replace them with American or western philosophical concepts. I think we will be seeing more of this type of behavior as time goes on.


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## d1jinx (Jul 5, 2011)

Either I pay more attention now, or it has really gotten bad these days.  I dont remember things like this before.  I mean, we had a few scuffles in the parking lot AFTER the tournament, but the level it is getting to today is out of control... as is society.

I'm not that old yet.  and yes, we would have words in the parking lot with other schools or practitioners that may or may not have led to an altercation.  But never did emotions run so out of control to act out during the tournament.  Trash talking outside later that led to a fight not good, but not bad as purposely seeking revenge during an event because you couldnt handle the loss...

I dont know.  I just think there are more problems with TKD today since the USAT decided to focus on the "elite" players and the whole sport aspect...  damn, i turned this into a bash USAT...  sorry wasnt intentional, just an observation.


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## armortkd (Jul 5, 2011)

Here is the progression I've observed over the last 20+ years.......these physical altercations & verbal misconduct has started from the Master & Coaches, to the Teams & families in the crowd, and now down to the athletes. My focus is on their personal performance on each individual match, & I always talk with the athlete after the match so I know that they're okay. Leave it in the ring!!! This isn't an Eastern versus Western thing even though I agree there obviously cultural differences. I've seen Korean coaches get physical with other coaches, referees, and athletes.

What makes this incident worse than others:
1. It didn't happen in the ring.
2. The attacker assaulted the victim who was sitting in a defenseless position.
3. The victim had teeth knocked-out & needed medical attention.

My personal curiousity thinks about what led up to the incident. But as a father, brother, uncle, teacher, instructor, & coach.........I've been taught by my parents & coaches that one stupid, careless act can result in losing your life, family, relationships, wealth, job, etc.


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## troubleenuf (Jul 5, 2011)

Come on... you mean you never seen a couple of Korean masters meet out in the back to "discuss" things?  Cant say as Ive seen it lately but it seemed to be part of the "program" 25 years ago.



puunui said:


> What I think people mean when they blame "sport" vs. "martial art" is they are trying to say that it is a "western" sport attitude as opposed to an eastern or asian cultural or sport attitude or philosophy. In western sports, it is common to see bench clearing fights, people yelling and disrespecting the opposing team or the referees, etc. You don't see so much of that in Asian situations. I see this as a natural consequence of the attempts by some to do away with asian philosophical concepts and replace them with American or western philosophical concepts. I think we will be seeing more of this type of behavior as time goes on.


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## puunui (Jul 5, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> Come on... you mean you never seen a couple of Korean masters meet out in the back to "discuss" things?  Cant say as Ive seen it lately but it seemed to be part of the "program" 25 years ago.



I've seen masters arguing at meetings but never to the point of throwing blows and not at tournaments. That really isn't the sort that I have been associated with personally. I can say with all honesty that none of my Korean born teachers ever acted like that at a tournament or at a meeting, and neither have I. We do not do that sort of thing. Instead, we maintain our discipline and respect, even when, especially when, things are not going our way.


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## mango.man (Jul 5, 2011)

puunui said:


> What I think people mean when they blame "sport" vs. "martial art" is they are trying to say that it is a "western" sport attitude as opposed to an eastern or asian cultural or sport attitude or philosophy. In western sports, it is common to see bench clearing fights, people yelling and disrespecting the opposing team or the referees, etc. You don't see so much of that in Asian situations. I see this as a natural consequence of the attempts by some to do away with asian philosophical concepts and replace them with American or western philosophical concepts. I think we will be seeing more of this type of behavior as time goes on.



True.  The Asian cultures usually reserve that behavior for their elected officials.


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## IcemanSK (Jul 5, 2011)

puunui said:


> I've seen masters arguing at meetings but never to the point of throwing blows and not at tournaments. That really isn't the sort that I have been associated with personally. I can say with all honesty that none of my Korean born teachers ever acted like that at a tournament or at a meeting, and neither have I. We do not do that sort of thing. Instead, we maintain our discipline and respect, even when, especially when, things are not going our way.


It wasn't my instructor either, but two other Korean masters in the early 80's going at it like Ren & Stimpy in the parking lot over who's student won the match. We didn't attend that tournament as a school again. Its certainly not an Eastern or Western thing. It is a respect for one's self issue. And its sad when it happens. But no more less so in any place in society, sport or otherwise.This is not directed at you or your above post Glenn. Just adding my two cents after your post.


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## troubleenuf (Jul 5, 2011)

Well I have to say you missed some very good entertainment in that case.  Not that I would condone it at my age now but it sure was interesting when I was 18!



puunui said:


> I've seen masters arguing at meetings but never to the point of throwing blows and not at tournaments. That really isn't the sort that I have been associated with personally. I can say with all honesty that none of my Korean born teachers ever acted like that at a tournament or at a meeting, and neither have I. We do not do that sort of thing. Instead, we maintain our discipline and respect, even when, especially when, things are not going our way.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jul 6, 2011)

I heard a funny story that happenend at a tournament here years ago. It was fought using the WTF ruleset and this one guy was just murdering the other guy, constant kicks to the head, constantly knocking him down with a flurry of kicks and was being very unsportsmanlike about it, waving his arms around and telling the other guy he was useless. Anyway, after the fight the guy who won by a mile went up and gave the loser an absolute gobfull about how much he won by and how 'easy' it was. The guy who lost finally had enough and invited him to "step outside to sort it out". The two guys went outside and the guy who had lost the tkd match absolutely flattened the other guy and proceeded to beat the hell out of him and said "your not so good without those rules to hide behind". It really emphasised that there is a big difference between "fighting" and "sparring". My instructor saw the whole thing and said he still has a giggle about it to this day.


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## msmitht (Jul 6, 2011)

puunui said:


> I've seen masters arguing at meetings but never to the point of throwing blows and not at tournaments. That really isn't the sort that I have been associated with personally. I can say with all honesty that none of my Korean born teachers ever acted like that at a tournament or at a meeting, and neither have I. We do not do that sort of thing. Instead, we maintain our discipline and respect, even when, especially when, things are not going our way.


I have seen them throw blows. They used to do it in the "grandmasters/masters lounge/area" (I.e. smoking area near tourney where students are not allowed). Now they bicker and shout at pre/post tourney meetings. I know because I have been there(the only non korean to attend in my area). I won't get into what is normally discussed as it is not part of this thread.
Too much ego and a general lack of respect is to blame. Ban the kid who attacked the other for a year. He made a poor decision while in the wrong frame of mind. 
Want to try and prevent this from happening at more tourneys? Hire more security. Boot anyone who uses profanity, vulgar language or acts in a threating manner from the event regardless of who they are or how many students they bring. Gives the referees the ability to boot anyone who verbally accosts them durring or after a match.


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## d1jinx (Jul 6, 2011)

yup.  can vouch for that too. seen a few Korean grandmasters go at it a few times. at the end of the day, we're all human and loose our tempers.  no one "culture" is exempt.


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## sfs982000 (Jul 6, 2011)

It's really unfortunate to hear about situations like that.  I understand that there are some very competitive individuals out there, but this is ridiculous.  I would have to agree with Balrog when he stated that if they were his students their belts would be on his desk and they would no longer be his students.  I guess losing with dignity is something they were never taught.


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## puunui (Jul 6, 2011)

msmitht said:


> I have seen them throw blows. They used to do it in the "grandmasters/masters lounge/area" (I.e. smoking area near tourney where students are not allowed). Now they bicker and shout at pre/post tourney meetings. I know because I have been there(the only non korean to attend in my area). I won't get into what is normally discussed as it is not part of this thread.



If I were you, I would be considering changing the people that I associate with.


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## puunui (Jul 6, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> yup.  can vouch for that too. seen a few Korean grandmasters go at it a few times. at the end of the day, we're all human and loose our tempers.  no one "culture" is exempt.



Korean culture is exempt, or makes it exempt. I have been to many tournaments in Korea and never once seen a coach or parent arguing about a call. It just doesn't happen. And if those Korean born grandmasters who lost their cool in the US were at an event in Korea, I am sure they would follow the cultural norms in Korea instead of doing what they might do in the US. 

To use another example, in Korea, all Taekwondoin receive Kukkiwon poom and dan certification, no exceptions. Someone may come up and argue that that is not true, that their Korean born grandmaster in the US does not issue Kukkiwon dan certificates but instead issues his own dojang certificates with his name and signature on it, that it is Korean culture to do so. But if you look at the reasons why the Korean born grandmaster in the US does it, he might give you a whole bunch of reasons such as he doesn't want to pay the Kukkiwon "tax" for dan certification, that there is no regulation that forces him to issue Kukkiwon certification, that he is living in the US and as an American he can do whatever he wants. These are American attitudes, not Korean cultural ones, which in fact would have him doing something totally different.


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## puunui (Jul 6, 2011)

mango.man said:


> True.  The Asian cultures usually reserve that behavior for their elected officials.




Do you really believe that?


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## puunui (Jul 6, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> Well I have to say you missed some very good entertainment in that case.  Not that I would condone it at my age now but it sure was interesting when I was 18!



I am glad that I missed what you call "some very good entertainment". I don't need to see Coach Woody Hayes punching one of his players either.


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## troubleenuf (Jul 6, 2011)

Sometimes I read what you wright and think that you must live in a vacuum... or at least you live with blinders on and only see what you want to see.  Im glad your "Korean born Grandmasters" are perfect.  I and obviously others have seen another side of it.  Im betting there is more that goes on around you than you are seeing or than you know but no big deal.  Keep on playing your Beatles music and put on those rose colored glasses buddy!!!  



puunui said:


> I am glad that I missed what you call "some very good entertainment". I don't need to see Coach Woody Hayes punching one of his players either.


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## mango.man (Jul 6, 2011)

puunui said:


> Do you really believe that?



I see it on the news at least a couple of times each year it seems.  Video of oriental politicians fist fighting on the floor of their congress or parliament that is.


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## puunui (Jul 6, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> Sometimes I read what you wright and think that you must live in a vacuum... or at least you live with blinders on and only see what you want to see.  Im glad your "Korean born Grandmasters" are perfect.  I and obviously others have seen another side of it.  Im betting there is more that goes on around you than you are seeing or than you know but no big deal.  Keep on playing your Beatles music and put on those rose colored glasses buddy!!!



I'm not saying that my teachers are perfect. They are human like everyone else. But I will say that I try to aim for the highest expression of whatever martial art that I am studying, and seek out teachers and situations that allow me both see and reach for that highest expression. That's why I choose the teachers that I do, people who tend to be founder types or pioneer types. I purposely and intentionally choose not to experience what you and some others have experienced, because I do not wish to get bogged down arguing about the lowest common denominator. What it really comes down to, again, is the choices that we make. I am happy with my choices and decisions, and if I had to do it all over again, I would do exactly the same thing. I certainly harbor no ill will or hostility towards any of my teachers, Korean born or not. Whether that makes me someone who listens to the Beatles while wearing rose colored glasses is for you to decide. I will say this though, I can see a change as the pioneers retire and/or otherwise leave the movement, replaced by others, who in my opinion, are less capable. 

I am I am glad that our Hawaii legacy and history does not include instructors who flip tables, swear, fight with other instructors or cause disruptions at our local tournaments. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why some senior referees at USAT National Events say that Hawaii athletes and coaches are always respectful, polite and well mannered.


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## puunui (Jul 6, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> Sometimes I read what you wright and think that you must live in a vacuum... or at least you live with blinders on and only see what you want to see.



There was one Korean born instructor who lived here in the 70's. He was the ITF representative for the state, but he would show up at the state association meetings and argue with the others. One of my teachers said that he pulled a knife once on another instructor at one of the meetings. Some others said that he was involved in protection of some Korean run businesses. They eventually founded him in his car one morning, dead with two taps to the head. He apparently had stepped on the toes of some of the organized crime people here. General Choi replaced him with GM KANG Ik Mu, who left some time in the 80's to go to Texas. GM Kang moved back to Hawaii after the non-Korean head of his organization was murdered while working the drive through window at Jack in the Box.


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## troubleenuf (Jul 6, 2011)

Dont get me wrong.  Those days are long gone and good riddance to them.  But they did happen and they were a product of the legacy of the times the Koreans that came here grew up in.  My instructor grew up right after the Korean war.  As he put it Korea was in chaos.  Many had fled to the big cities.  There were gangs and thugs everywhere.  His father put him in TKD so he could survive.  I think we forget that the tenants are great to teach and to live by but when you are trying to survive in a war torn country those things go out the window pretty quick (I dont think they taught much of that back then anyway).  Anyway, this is way of track from this subject.  



puunui said:


> I'm not saying that my teachers are perfect. They are human like everyone else. But I will say that I try to aim for the highest expression of whatever martial art that I am studying, and seek out teachers and situations that allow me both see and reach for that highest expression. That's why I choose the teachers that I do, people who tend to be founder types or pioneer types. I purposely and intentionally choose not to experience what you and some others have experienced, because I do not wish to get bogged down arguing about the lowest common denominator. What it really comes down to, again, is the choices that we make. I am happy with my choices and decisions, and if I had to do it all over again, I would do exactly the same thing. I certainly harbor no ill will or hostility towards any of my teachers, Korean born or not. Whether that makes me someone who listens to the Beatles while wearing rose colored glasses is for you to decide. I will say this though, I can see a change as the pioneers retire and/or otherwise leave the movement, replaced by others, who in my opinion, are less capable.
> 
> I am I am glad that our Hawaii legacy and history does not include instructors who flip tables, swear, fight with other instructors or cause disruptions at our local tournaments. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why some senior referees at USAT National Events say that Hawaii athletes and coaches are always respectful, polite and well mannered.


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## msmitht (Jul 7, 2011)

puunui said:


> If I were you, I would be considering changing the people that I associate with.


I have. More than once unfortunately.


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## taekwondodo (Jul 8, 2011)

finally, the correct story:
http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-co...earch-www.mercurynews.com-www.mercurynews.com


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## jks9199 (Jul 8, 2011)

From the article:


> Doctors later told the  victim's parents and coach that the foot missed by inches driving the  victim's nose bone back into his skull and killing him.



BULL!  That's not possible.  Could the kick have done potentially fatal damage, depending on exactly where and how it hit?  Of course.  But not by driving the bones of nose (there are none!) into the brain.


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## granfire (Jul 8, 2011)

round house with the heel hitting the target? (and yes, inches...in the face that's like miles everywhere else...)


oh well...

I guess back to the core of the story:
Sore losers suck.


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## puunui (Jul 8, 2011)

granfire said:


> round house with the heel hitting the target? (and yes, inches...in the face that's like miles everywhere else...)




A lot of people confuse the roundhouse kick with a spin hook kick. They hear "roundhouse" and visualize a spin hook kick.


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## granfire (Jul 8, 2011)

puunui said:


> A lot of people confuse the roundhouse kick with a spin hook kick. They hear "roundhouse" and visualize a spin hook kick.



they hear kick and only know round house (thank you Chuck Norris)

I know. Subject specific terms are not a reporters strong suit these days.

In any case, it's not really important if the instep or the heel connected....the distasteful incident is the core of the problem.


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## Tez3 (Jul 8, 2011)

Balrog said:


> If either one of those kids were my student, their belts would be on my desk Monday morning and they would no longer be members of my school. There is absolutely no excuse for behavior like that and shame on their instructors and parents for not teaching them basic courtesy and respect.



Before you posted this someone had already corrected the story having seen it for themselves, the truth was only one competitor was at fault so would you still punish both of them?


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## granfire (Jul 8, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Before you posted this someone had already corrected the story having seen it for themselves, the truth was only one competitor was at fault so would you still punish both of them?


I know I am being a jerk here, but collecting a shot to the head without block....

He might have been writing as the other post went up....


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## Tez3 (Jul 9, 2011)

granfire said:


> I know I am being a jerk here, but collecting a shot to the head without block....
> 
> *He might have been writing as the other post went up....[/*QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 9, 2011)

It is sad that such occurrences happen, yet they do happen. A combination of blame must go to parents, coaches, participants, and maybe the event organizer and judges.


OK not speaking of TKD but in general. 
Many years ago brawls in the ring would happen but that&#8217;s just the way tournaments where back then. 
If you had a beef with someone you slugged it out in the ring if the two of you still held a grudge it might carry over to the next tournament but was usually finished after that. 
Did fights occur out of the ring YEP. I can remember more than a few cases where participants where taken to a back room by their instructors and told to get it out of their system once and for all. Instructors fighting other instructors, yep. The back room was used to discuses many different things from bad scoring to just plain &#8220;your an *******, fraud,&#8221; etc. 
Attitude back then was not so much about sportsmanship but &#8220;WIN&#8221;, prove to your opponent that you beat him and leave no chance of him disputing it.
Heck I'm not even sure when the sportsmanship came into tournaments.


Now as for today&#8217;s competitors: If they have no discipline they need to be banned from further competition ( cursing or getting angry without violence may need other disciplinary action). A coach who has multiple occurrences of their students with disciplinary problems should be barred from bringing students if not barred from all events along with all their students.


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## granfire (Jul 9, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> granfire said:
> 
> 
> > I know I am being a jerk here, but collecting a shot to the head without block....
> ...


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## andyjeffries (Jul 10, 2011)

Seems it's hit national/international press (MSNBC):

http://offthebench.nbcsports.com/2011/07/10/karate-teen-busted-after-near-deadly-roundhouse-kick/


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## mango.man (Jul 10, 2011)

After a bit of digging it has been determined that the suspect in this incident is from "Doral Taekwondo And Family Fitness" in Doral Florida, a suburb of Miami and a USAT registered school.  http://www.doral-taekwondo.com/Home_Page.html and he is one of the captains of the school's demo team http://www.doralwolves.com/

I wonder what will come of both the punk and the school with regards to their USAT status?


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## granfire (Jul 10, 2011)

mango.man said:


> After a bit of digging it has been determined that the suspect in this incident is from "Doral Taekwondo And Family Fitness" in Doral Florida, a suburb of Miami and a USAT registered school.  http://www.doral-taekwondo.com/Home_Page.html and he is one of the captains of the school's demo team http://www.doralwolves.com/
> 
> I wonder what will come of both the punk and the school with regards to their USAT status?



I put my money on...
nothing...


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## terryl965 (Jul 10, 2011)

Most likely nothing since USAT is not saying much about it. They tend to cover things up alot.


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## terryl965 (Jul 10, 2011)

Well charges have been officially done. Here is the link http://www.sacbee.com/2011/07/09/3758539/teen-black-belt-facing-charges.html


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## ralphmcpherson (Jul 11, 2011)

In almost any other sport I can think of you would be gone for a long time if you did that, no questions asked. I remember playing rugby league as a kid and a kid shoved a referee and was banned for life, a player at my brother's soccer club spat on another player and was banned for 2 years, why is tkd so different?


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## Markku P (Jul 11, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Seems it's hit national/international press (MSNBC):
> 
> http://offthebench.nbcsports.com/2011/07/10/karate-teen-busted-after-near-deadly-roundhouse-kick/



Now they wrote about this in Swedish and Finnish newspapers..:rules:


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## Poomsaeguy (Jul 12, 2011)

mango.man said:


> After a bit of digging it has been determined that the suspect in this incident is from "Doral Taekwondo And Family Fitness" in Doral Florida, a suburb of Miami and a USAT registered school. http://www.doral-taekwondo.com/Home_Page.html and he is one of the captains of the school's demo team http://www.doralwolves.com/
> 
> I wonder what will come of both the punk and the school with regards to their USAT status?



This is wrong! That is not the school he goes to. You should check your facts before posting. If you would like to know what school he attends then go to page 33 of the results from Nationals on the USAT home page. Shows who was DQ'ed. Give his name , state and abberviated school name.


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## Poomsaeguy (Jul 12, 2011)

http://assets.usoc.org/assets/documents/attached_file/filename/45557/Saturday_Results.pdf


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## terryl965 (Jul 12, 2011)

What I would like to know is U.S.A.T. going to do anything about it? Why have they not been vocal and what is being done to help prevent this kind of action from happening at events? 

Does anybody see where this could become a major problem in the sport if the NGB of this country does not step in and fix the bigger problem and that is getting back to the tenets and sportmanship and fair play. I guess for USAT fair play would be one of those words they are not familar with. I would like to see a course that is mandatory for all athlete to take about doing the right thing and how important fair play is and we as Martial sportsmans need to be above and have integrity whether we win or lose. 

I have been an advocate of educating our player on the tenets of TKD why is the organization not doing this as well. There events they can make it happen, they can become a vocal voice in the relm of fair play to all the athlete just by being pro-active with education and fair play.


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## puunui (Jul 12, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> What I would like to know is U.S.A.T. going to do anything about it? Why have they not been vocal and what is being done to help prevent this kind of action from happening at events?
> 
> Does anybody see where this could become a major problem in the sport if the NGB of this country does not step in and fix the bigger problem and that is getting back to the tenets and sportmanship and fair play. I guess for USAT fair play would be one of those words they are not familar with. I would like to see a course that is mandatory for all athlete to take about doing the right thing and how important fair play is and we as Martial sportsmans need to be above and have integrity whether we win or lose.
> 
> I have been an advocate of educating our player on the tenets of TKD why is the organization not doing this as well. There events they can make it happen, they can become a vocal voice in the relm of fair play to all the athlete just by being pro-active with education and fair play.



The Tenets are an ITF General Choi invention; it is not part of Kukki Taekwondo. You will not find them in the Kukkiwon Textbook for example. That doesn't mean that the values that the Tenets try to instill aren't a part of Taekwondo though. 

What you are basically saying is that we should move away from the bad  aspects of American sport culture and move back towards the positive  aspects of Korean culture, politeness and respect being at the top of  that. But in my mind, what is going on is a natural progression of the way things have been going for a while now. People want to instill "American" values into American Taekwondo, and they accomplished that by disrespecting their seniors and eliminating them. People cannot and should not be surprised if that sort of thinking filters down to the next generation.


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## granfire (Jul 12, 2011)

puunui said:


> The Tenets are an ITF General Choi invention; it is not part of Kukki Taekwondo. You will not find them in the Kukkiwon Textbook for example. That doesn't mean that the values that the Tenets try to instill aren't a part of Taekwondo though.
> 
> What you are basically saying is that we should move away from the bad  aspects of American sport culture and move back towards the positive  aspects of Korean culture, politeness and respect being at the top of  that. But in my mind, what is going on is a natural progression of the way things have been going for a while now. People want to instill "American" values into American Taekwondo, and they accomplished that by disrespecting their seniors and eliminating them. People cannot and should not be surprised if that sort of thinking filters down to the next generation.



but popular legend traces the tenets back to the Hwa Rang .....I think that has the KKW and actually TKD beat by a couple of years.

(not to mention the tenets mirror the warrior's code of just about any armed class throughout history all over the world)


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## MaxiMe (Jul 12, 2011)

puunui said:


> People want to instill "American" values into American Taekwondo, and they accomplished that by disrespecting their seniors and eliminating them. People cannot and should not be surprised if that sort of thinking filters down to the next generation.



I may have read that wrong or not how you meant it. Could you clarify a bit please.

I know if I had conduct like that not only would I be taken to task by my instructors but also by my fellow students, wife, mom/dad, inlaws and even my 10 year old. Right quick and in a hurry.


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## puunui (Jul 12, 2011)

MaxiMe said:


> I may have read that wrong or not how you meant it. Could you clarify a bit please. I know if I had conduct like that not only would I be taken to task by my instructors but also by my fellow students, wife, mom/dad, inlaws and even my 10 year old. Right quick and in a hurry.



And at the same token, if I acted like how some American borns act towards their seniors, especially to Korean borns, I would also be taken to task not only by my instructors, but everyone else in my family as well. Where I come from, you just don't act like that towards seniors, teachers, parents, etc. no matter what you think they did to you. You cannot act one way towards seniors or teachers and then act surprised when similar or worse behavior happens down slope from you. Just something to think about, how the attitude of disrespect festers and grows.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 12, 2011)

puunui said:


> What you are basically saying is that we should move away from the bad aspects of American sport culture and move back towards the positive aspects of Korean culture, politeness and respect being at the top of that.



I think moving towards aspects such as politeness and respect would be an excellent idea, not that it began in Korea.  We should also have an eye towards eliminating politics within the arts, unfair or racially discriminatory promotional practices, back door/airport/good-ole-boy promotions, embezzling funds and such things.  Then it would all be groovy.


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## StudentCarl (Jul 12, 2011)

puunui said:


> Where I come from, you just don't act like that towards seniors, teachers, parents, etc. no matter what you think they did to you.



This is good upbringing, and has no unique connection to any culture, ethnicity, race, nation, or group. There are good and bad in all. Where I come from, in the rural American midwest, it's like you wrote above, and consistently enforced throughout my youth. But that doesn't mean there are not idiots from where I grew up or where you did. I think Taekwondo is good upbringing, but I agree completely with what you've said before that the choice of master is a vital one. You've commented often about the high quality of your seniors. I wonder if the master of the student accused of assault is surprised by what happened...whether he knew of his student's issues.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jul 13, 2011)

StudentCarl said:


> This is good upbringing, and has no unique connection to any culture, ethnicity, race, nation, or group. There are good and bad in all. Where I come from, in the rural American midwest, it's like you wrote above, and consistently enforced throughout my youth. But that doesn't mean there are not idiots from where I grew up or where you did. I think Taekwondo is good upbringing, but I agree completely with what you've said before that the choice of master is a vital one. You've commented often about the high quality of your seniors. I wonder if the master of the student accused of assault is surprised by what happened...whether he knew of his student's issues.


Your last sentence is the same thing Ive been wondering about. At our school we dont attend tournaments, but I got to thinking what our GM would do if one of our students did that and I have no doubts that a student with that sort of attitude would be kicked out of the club long before an incident like this would occur. The same could be said for the japanese master at the karate club I trained at. I really have to blame the club for letting a student train there long enough to reach a level where he attends tournaments with an attitude like this. The club should have kicked him out or 'sorted him out' long before it came to this. We have had students who have displayed these sorts of problems in the past, but its amazing how much they cut out the attitude after sparring a couple of 5th or 6th dans with a 'relaxed' ruleset.


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## miguksaram (Jul 13, 2011)

Glenn can correct me if I'm wrong, but what I believe he is trying to say when bringing "American" into this, is a negative value of instant gratification and the "I deserve..." type attitude.  Not that this is a value only Americans have, but it is quite abundant in our society and can be seen in everything from business to the martial arts.

Koreans, or any nation for that matter, do not have a monopoly in good upbringing.  In the same sense America, or any other nation, corner the market  in bad upbringing and disrespect towards seniors.  I believe there is a thread on here already about culture clashes within TKD.


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## miguksaram (Jul 13, 2011)

granfire said:


> but popular legend traces the tenets back to the Hwa Rang .....I think that has the KKW and actually TKD beat by a couple of years.
> 
> (not to mention the tenets mirror the warrior's code of just about any armed class throughout history all over the world)


Though it is still popular to try and link TKD to Hwarang warriors, the truth is that there is no direct connection at all, even through the tenants.  If you actually look into the whole Silla dynasty you will find that it was not such a romantic time period as people would have you think.


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## MaxiMe (Jul 13, 2011)

puunui said:


> And at the same token, if I acted like how some American borns act towards their seniors, especially to Korean borns, I would also be taken to task not only by my instructors, but everyone else in my family as well. Where I come from, you just don't act like that towards seniors, teachers, parents, etc. no matter what you think they did to you. You cannot act one way towards seniors or teachers and then act surprised when similar or worse behavior happens down slope from you. Just something to think about, how the attitude of disrespect festers and grows.


Thanks for the clarification, must have been my reading it wrong.


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## granfire (Jul 13, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Though it is still popular to try and link TKD to Hwarang warriors, the truth is that there is no direct connection at all, even through the tenants.  If you actually look into the whole Silla dynasty you will find that it was not such a romantic time period as people would have you think.



No time period was romantic. not even the romantic time period.

Lofty ideal are put in place because the reality looks vastly different.

That includes the rules of chivalry of the European knights just as well. 

I am sure the inception of TKD was not romantic either.

However, in the root of TKD are numerous arts and traditions that have a base in tenets and rules that rein in the force.
be it the Bushido, via Shotokan Karate, or the principles of Buddhism...

While it may not have been spelled out by the KKW, I have my doubts that behavior like the one we are talking about would have gone over well. Actually in either above mentioned society...


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 13, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Glenn can correct me if I'm wrong, but what I believe he is trying to say when bringing "American" into this, is a negative value of instant gratification and the "I deserve..." type attitude.  Not that this is a value only Americans have, but it is quite abundant in our society and can be seen in everything from business to the martial arts.
> 
> Koreans, or any nation for that matter, do not have a monopoly in good upbringing.  In the same sense America, or any other nation, corner the market  in bad upbringing and disrespect towards seniors.  I believe there is a thread on here already about culture clashes within TKD.



As has been mentioned, good manners, discipline, courtesy etc are not the domain of the 'far east'.  The is a stereotype.  There are just as many people of good quality around the world despite what Hollywood and Wall Street would have us believe.  

In regards to disrespect of 'seniors', this needs to be addressed head on.  Time was when 'ole round eye' was impressed with the 'new' way of fighting.  Time was when 'respect' was demanded rather than earned by many 'seniors'.  Time was when 'juniors' didn't question 'seniors' even when 'seniors' were acting dishonestly, disrespectfully or dishonorably.  Those times are gone.  And thankfully and rightfully so!  It isn't disrespect to ask 'why'.  It isn't disrespect to question certain less-than-above-board practices.  That is what you call quality control.


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## puunui (Jul 13, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Glenn can correct me if I'm wrong, but what I believe he is trying to say when bringing "American" into this, is a negative value of instant gratification and the "I deserve..." type attitude.  Not that this is a value only Americans have, but it is quite abundant in our society and can be seen in everything from business to the martial arts.




What I mean is that the USAT, which is the organization sponsoring the tournament that the altercation occurred which is the subject of this topic, was born out of the actions of a group of American born practitioners (and some non practitioners) who quite disrespectfully had almost all of the Korean born practitioners removed from the organization. There really were no Korean borns who supported the violent overthrow of the USTU and it really was the actions of a group of American borns. The bylaws of the organization were also changed, the focus being that never again would Korean born practitioners gain control of the organization. Feeling disrespected and unwanted, the vast majority of Korean born practitioners left, taking their students with them. The result is a crippled and bankrupt organization mired in mismanagement, which is humorous, given that this is what the American born protesters were accusing the Korean born leadership of the USTU of. Having spawned from that type of mentality (hatred and disrespect towards seniors or those in authority, in the name of American values, American leadership and American control), my point is that it is only a matter of time before the mentality and attitude filters down to the next generation. The heart of what the kid did was, once again, an attitude of disrespect towards seniors or those in authority.  Frankly, I am surprised that it doesn't happen more often. I am speaking specifically about what happened in the USTU and what is now going on in the successor organization, the USAT, which is where this incident occurred. 

I remember growing up my neighbor had a rebellious daughter who always gave her parents problems. There was always screaming and fighting and tantrums from the daughter, throwing furniture in the house and disrupting the neighborhood. I felt for the other kids and also the parents of the daughter. She ended up running away from home numerous times and became pregnant at age 15. She married the guy who got her pregnant, the husband being an alcoholic who physically abused her. When the daughter finally sought help from the parents whom she had disrespected and caused so much problems for, the mother said "You made your bed, and now you are going to have to sleep in it." 

I cannot help but feel the same way for those who disrespected their seniors in creating USAT. They too made their bed, and now have to sleep in it. Each day that passes, I care less and less about USAT. I am at the point where I only care about certain good people and their students who continue to labor under extremely adverse circumstances at USAT. I wonder whether there will come a time when I don't care at all.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 13, 2011)

Interesting.  Are you making the charge that the USAT discriminates intentionally against Korean-born instructors/practitioners?  According to their bylaws Section 4.1g BOD's are selected without regard to race, gender etc.  Additionally, they are voted in (section 5.2).  Just out of curiousity, how many Americans are at high levels in the KKW?  Or Brits or Pakastani's or well, anyone non-Korean?


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## granfire (Jul 13, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Interesting.  Are you making the charge that the USAT discriminates intentionally against Korean-born instructors/practitioners?  According to their bylaws Section 4.1g BOD's are selected without regard to race, gender etc.  Additionally, they are voted in (section 5.2).  Just out of curiousity, how many Americans are at high levels in the KKW?  Or Brits or Pakastani's or well, anyone non-Korean?



Have you read anything that Rhonda posted....lately?

it's not like the bylaws are but mere suggestions at this time!


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## puunui (Jul 13, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> As has been mentioned, good manners, discipline, courtesy etc are not the domain of the 'far east'.  The is a stereotype.  There are just as many people of good quality around the world despite what Hollywood and Wall Street would have us believe.



Never said it was. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> In regards to disrespect of 'seniors', this needs to be addressed head on.  Time was when 'ole round eye' was impressed with the 'new' way of fighting.  Time was when 'respect' was demanded rather than earned by many 'seniors'.  Time was when 'juniors' didn't question 'seniors' even when 'seniors' were acting dishonestly, disrespectfully or dishonorably.  Those times are gone.  And thankfully and rightfully so!  It isn't disrespect to ask 'why'.  It isn't disrespect to question certain less-than-above-board practices.  That is what you call quality control.



My perspective is this: In regards to disrespect of seniors, this needs to be addressed head on. Time was when everyone wanted to learn everything that there was about the martial arts, and not only the physical. Time was when respect was automatically given rather than "earned". Time was when juniors or students maintained their respect and discipline even though they did not understand at the time what the teacher was teaching, like Daniel san waxing on and off. Those times are gone. Thankfully and rightfully so? I don't think so. And I have always asked why, in a polite and respectful fashion, especially when i didn't understand what was going on. This is what you call the student teacher martial arts relationship. 

In my opinion, again, the key is in the selection of a good teacher. How do you select a good teacher? That is a topic that can be discussed on many levels.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 13, 2011)

puunui said:


> And I have always asked why, in a polite and respectful fashion, especially when i didn't understand what was going on. This is what you call the student teacher martial arts relationship.



Really?  Didn't you discuss in another thread turning a blind eye to a seniors questionable practices?  Something along the line of racially discriminatory promotional practices?  You mentioned that one doesn't question seniors.  That isn't a healthy student/teacher relationship Glenn.  Not trying to hammer you, but it can't go both ways.  If something is wrong...it's wrong.  Doesn't matter what nationality the person may be and this is the point I'm making.


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## puunui (Jul 13, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Really?  Didn't you discuss in another thread turning a blind eye to a seniors questionable practices?  Something along the line of racially discriminatory promotional practices?  You mentioned that one doesn't question seniors.  That isn't a healthy student/teacher relationship Glenn.  Not trying to hammer you, but it can't go both ways.  If something is wrong...it's wrong.  Doesn't matter what nationality the person may be and this is the point I'm making.



Try and read it again. I think that is what you THINK I said, mainly because I believe that you are looking at it from your point of view instead of trying to honestly understand mine. For example, I've repeatedly said ask my teachers questions when I don't understand something. Sometimes they tell me the answer right away and other times they tell me wait and see and you will understand, which I eventually do. How do you think I get all the information and knowledge that I share on here? I get it from my teachers and seniors, through conversations and lessons which include, but is not limited to, asking questions and receiving answers. I will say that I do not start from a conclusion, assuming or judging someone or something to be "wrong" from my perspective, but rather I honestly and sincerely attempt to understand things from my teacher's and my senior's perspective. That and I have spent a great deal of time selecting my teachers very carefully.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 13, 2011)

puunui said:


> Try and read it again.



Okay, let's take a look;

From the thread titled "Youngest KKW BB at age 6.  Page 11, post #152



> Why would that story, even if true, affect GM Dunn's relationship to his  teacher? One of my teachers did almost the same thing, with the  exception that I didn't actually teach the person in question. This  person went on to all kinds of negative things, or at least he attempted  to do so. When I spoke to my teacher about it, asking him why he  promoted this loser, my teacher's response was "I don't tell you what to  do." After that, I never raised the subject ever again and we continued  with our teacher student relationship.



I had just relayed the story of how my instructor was basically the victim of racially motivated discriminatory promotional practices by his Korean GM.  In short, the Korean GM brought in a fellow Korean blue belt.  My instructor taught him per the Korean GM's instruction.  This Korean blue belt disappears after 6 months only to resurface as a 4th Dan.  The first thing you did in your quote is try to suggest that the story may not be true.  Why, is it such an unheard of thing in KKW TKD for this to happen?  Obviously not, as you replied immediately with;



> One of my teachers did almost the same thing, with the  exception that I didn't actually teach the person in question.



Here's the deal, airport promotions, back door promotions, racially motivated promotions are wrong regardless of the nationality.  So you asked about it;



> When I spoke to my teacher about it, asking him why he  promoted this loser, my teacher's response was "I don't tell you what to  do." After that, I never raised the subject ever again and we continued  with our teacher student relationship.



So since you call the guy a loser I'm assuming he wasn't worthy of the promotion.  I'd be willing to bet money was involved in both of these situations.  Your GM basically blew you off Glenn.  A 'do as I say, not as I do' thing.  That's crap.  And you swallowed it.  Why?  So your next promotion wouldn't be in jeopardy?  So you wouldn't rock the boat?  So you wouldn't be black balled?   And then you have the gall to suggest we respect people like this?  Bow down to them or be the first to jump to attention when they enter the room.  Clearly we have different values on these issues.  



> I honestly and sincerely attempt to understand things from my teacher's  and my senior's perspective. That and I have spent a great deal of time  selecting my teachers very carefully.



It is quite clear that their 'perspective' is making money and chasing the almighty dollar in mass commercialism rather than integrity.  From your own words I think you should have been even more careful.  No offense intended Glenn, but I'm not buying what you're selling.  I know that your doing your best to be the KKW answer man and give it all a good spin, but I truly feel they've sold you out.  This isn't to say that all members or 'seniors' of the KKW are dishonest or act dishonorably but lets not white-wash those that are just for the sake of keeping the idea of the KKW alive and kicking.  People can see through the 'damage control'.


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## puunui (Jul 14, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> So since you call the guy a loser I'm assuming he wasn't worthy of the promotion.  I'd be willing to bet money was involved in both of these situations.  Your GM basically blew you off Glenn.  A 'do as I say, not as I do' thing.  That's crap.  And you swallowed it.  Why?  So your next promotion wouldn't be in jeopardy?  So you wouldn't rock the boat?  So you wouldn't be black balled?   And then you have the gall to suggest we respect people like this?  Bow down to them or be the first to jump to attention when they enter the room.  Clearly we have different values on these issues.



What I learned from that exchange was that my instructor really didn't care about rank or promotions, at least not to the micro management level that others seem to care about it. It put a whole new perspective on the whole rank thing for me. It wasn't a do as I say and not as I do, because he has never questioned any of my promotion recommendations. So he really has a point. He doesn't question me, and so why should I question him? As for the fear type concerns that you raised "jeopardize future promotions, being black balled, etc." that really isn't the dynamic that I have with any of my instructors, ever. Like I have stated previously, I feel no insecurity about being kicked out, black balled or whatever else from any of my teachers, anymore than I have those kinds of fears from my parents. I don't have that sort of relationship with my teachers, and I don't have that sort of relationship with my parents. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> It is quite clear that their 'perspective' is making money and chasing the almighty dollar in mass commercialism rather than integrity.  From your own words I think you should have been even more careful.  No offense intended Glenn, but I'm not buying what you're selling.  I know that your doing your best to be the KKW answer man and give it all a good spin, but I truly feel they've sold you out.  This isn't to say that all members or 'seniors' of the KKW are dishonest or act dishonorably but lets not white-wash those that are just for the sake of keeping the idea of the KKW alive and kicking.  People can see through the 'damage control'.



This was my Hapkido teacher, so it really doesn't have anything to do with the Kukkiwon. I practice Hapkido as well and not just Kukki Taekwondo. As for their perspective, I would say that this particular teacher tends to give people what they expect. Some come to him wanting only rank. Others come to him wanting to learn deeply, everything that he has to offer. The martial arts, like anything else, really is about what you put into it. And it underlines really the whole point of the paper anyway, which is that in the end, it really does not matter what the number on your paper that you have, because who you are and what you know will always shine through, at least to the practitioners that I associate with. We rarely, if ever, discuss rank. 

As for the other stuff you accuse me of, it really doesn't matter what my response will be because it is clear that you made up your mind about the Kukkiwon long before you even were a member of this board. If you don't like the Kukkiwon, then don't get their certification. And I don't expect you or anyone else to change your mind. That really isn't the point of these discussions, from my perspective. Rather, it is, like in every other aspect of the martial arts, simply another opportunity for self discovery. 

I do find it interesting on some level though, that part of the claim of legitimacy for your instructor and your Kong Soo Do organization, is through his Kukkiwon certification, and by extension, the Kukkiwon certification of his instructor and his instructor's instructor. I think you stated something about not having it both ways, I might suggest that you also should consider whether that is something that you might consider refraining from yourself. 

And there is no damage control, because no matter what you say, there will always be more people who recognize the value of Kukkiwon certification and will seek it out. Seven million and counting, and the number seems to be growing exponentially. If you don't want it, fine, because people who do want it goes down the block and around the corner.


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## andyjeffries (Jul 14, 2011)

puunui said:


> What I learned from that exchange was that my instructor really didn't care about rank or promotions, at least not to the micro management level that others seem to care about it. It put a whole new perspective on the whole rank thing for me. It wasn't a do as I say and not as I do, because he has never questioned any of my promotion recommendations. So he really has a point. He doesn't question me, and so why should I question him?



This very much fits with a perspective I'm gaining from BJJ.  In BJJ the question is never "is he certified under the IBJJF?" but "who gave him his black belt?".  In BJJ it seems a much more personal thing, black belts promoting worthy students to black belt (who may then promote others).  I even remember reading a quote a while back when a senior grade was asked whether a certain person was worthy of a BJJ black belt and his reply was along the lines of "I'm not going to question why X gave him a black belt, that's his business".

Over the years my opinions on testing have changed from being a student's point of view that it's just a sign of progress on the way to black belt to an instructor's point of view in feeling like you're giving a little bit of trust to the student with every rank, hoping they'll carry on in a good vein and not misuse/water down what you're teaching them.  I still like the formality of a grading situation rather than just an after class "here's your new belt" as I think it gives the students something to learn to cope with, but I feel the actual giving of the rank is a bit more personal.  For the record, I haven't promoted anyone yet, but these are my feelings about it and I am looking forward to having a student ready to promote.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 14, 2011)

puunui said:


> What I learned from that exchange was that my instructor really didn't care about rank or promotions, at least not to the micro management level that others seem to care about it. It put a whole new perspective on the whole rank thing for me.



That all sound really good, even enlightened.  But I can't help but feel that your simply putting an esoteric spin on what boils down to this man selling rank for profit.  At least that is what it seems like since my example defined this and you said they were similar.  If he truly didn't care about rank or promotions, perhaps he should have led by example and given up rank, and by extension not promoted anyone.  That would truly have been inspiring.  As it is, it simply sounds like another example of commercialism trumping integrity.  

My apologies for confusing this HKD instructor with a KKW TKD instructor, you'll understand my natural assumption given the public track record of KKW TKD.



> And it underlines really the whole point of the paper anyway, which is  that in the end, it really does not matter what the number on your paper  that you have, because who you are and what you know will always shine  through, at least to the practitioners that I associate with. We rarely,  if ever, discuss rank.



Interesting opinion you postulate given you were so interested in me and my instructors rank.  Why would it matter?  If later on this afternoon I decided to promote myself to 8th Dan in my own system would you have something to say about it?  By your own words, it really doesn't matter what the number is on the paper, it is who you are and what you know that shines through.  I'm not planning to do so by-the-way, just tossing out an example.  But then you seemed to have a bit of a snit about going from 6th to 7th in one year, despite the restructuring of my rank to the new system to incorporate the totality of my 36 years in the martial arts.  Which I found rather odd since you didn't bat an eye about a Korean buying his rank and going from blue belt to 4th Dan in a year.  A bit of a double standard it would seem.  Pick one stance to stand on and stick with it my friend.  Don't waver just because of someone's ethnic background...or if they have a differing opinion than your own on an internet discussion board.  



> As for the other stuff you accuse me of, it really doesn't matter what  my response will be because it is clear that you made up your mind about  the Kukkiwon long before you even were a member of this board.



Please stop with the victim mentality.  The switch between that and antagonist gets tiresome.  I haven't accused you of anything, I'm only discussing comments that you have recently made that have a bearing on the topic of the thread.  Yes, I have a stated opinion on the KKW or any organization that shows favoritism, bad business practices, money-grabs, embezzlement, unfair or biased promotions and zero accountability.  I'm just a stickler on such things.  Doesn't mean I don't like people that have chosen it, but I don't view it from the perspective of rosey turn-a-blind-eye lenses.  If they are really concerned with helping the world of TKD, let them reduce their fee to about 10 bucks regardless of the rank.  That would cover the buck it costs to print the paper and S&H.  And let them come out with a iron-clad ruling that KKW instructors can't inflate the price.  Now THAT would help the TKD'ist.



> I do find it interesting on some level though, that part of the claim of  legitimacy for your instructor and your Kong Soo Do organization, is  through his Kukkiwon certification, and by extension, the Kukkiwon  certification of his instructor and his instructor's instructor



Really?  I don't remember advertising this.  His KKW cert is his business and really has had no bearing on what and how we teach.  It shows a link to Korea I suppose, for whatever that is worth.  I believe it is mentioned somewhere on the IKSDA website that his instructors are with the KKW, but that is a matter of history rather than philosophy.  I don't believe he is mentioned as being a KKW master though on the website.  



> And there is no damage control, because no matter what you say, there  will always be more people who recognize the value of Kukkiwon  certification and will seek it out. Seven million and counting, and the  number seems to be growing exponentially. If you don't want it, fine,  because people who do want it goes down the block and around the corner.



Hmmm...I've seen the numbers and the stats.  It seems like an huge percentage of that number are in Korea itself.  Let's take a look shall we;

Reposted from ArchTKD



> I've got a copy of stats I pulled from the Kukkiwon back in 2001, which in part state the  following:
> 
> 1. There were a total of 1,649,592 Poom holders (1st Poom - 4th Poom)  worldwide. Of those 1,589,517 where in Korea
> 
> ...



Just looking at these numbers for the date given, 2.9 million Dan holders....of which 2.7 million were in Korea.  Now the numbers have gone up of course in the last 10 years, but I doubt the % has changed much.  A since TKD is basically for the kids in Korea, and it only takes about a year to reach it in Korea I'd say it probably doesn't mean a whole lot.  It certainly isn't like you try to portray i.e. people lining up around the corner outside of Korea to get one.  I remember talking with a American KKW 7th a few years ago (I think you know him as well), he came to the realization of what it was really worth and now keeps them in a box in the back of the closet.  

Out of curiousity, I wonder if the KKW charges the same think to all those Korean school kids that they do in other countries like the U.S.?


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## miguksaram (Jul 14, 2011)

KSD said:
			
		

> If they are  really concerned with helping the world of TKD, let them reduce their  fee to about 10 bucks regardless of the rank.  That would cover the buck  it costs to print the paper and S&H.  And let them come out with a  iron-clad ruling that KKW instructors can't inflate the price.  Now THAT  would help the TKD'ist.


Perhaps you can help explain how they will pay the salaries of the people who work there, the taxes on the land they own, the utilities they use and the funding for the events they hold which they will house and feed the competitors.

Also, as a school owner would you abide this philosophy and only charge for the paper and nothing else?  Do you run your school to make any kind of profit or do you not care?


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 14, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Perhaps you can help explain how they will pay the salaries of the people who work there, the taxes on the land they own, the utilities they use and the funding for the events they hold which they will house and feed the competitors.



I'm sorry, are we talking about teaching a martial art or running a large corporation for commercial gain?  


> Also, as a school owner would you abide this philosophy and only charge  for the paper and nothing else?  Do you run your school to make any kind  of profit or do you not care?



As a school owner, I charged just enough to pay the rent and keep the lights on.  Nothing, I repeat nothing went into my pocket.  The few times we had a bit of excess (as from doing a seminar) it went to a children's charity.  That's just the way I roll.  I have never charged a penny for testing someone.  That was stated up front when I accepted a new student.  I was able to print out a nice certificate at Sir Speedy or Kinco for a buck and I paid it myself.  So no, I don't care about a profit.  To me the martial arts are not a business.  YMMV


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## miguksaram (Jul 14, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I'm sorry, are we talking about teaching a martial art or running a large corporation for commercial gain?


We are talking about the KKW which houses millions of people certification information.  Runs countless testings, puts on a world class tournament which they foot the bill for food and housing of its competitors.  Do you really know what it is that the KKW does or do you feel that it is just 3 people huddled in a cubicle rubber stamping pieces of paper as they come in.



			
				KSD said:
			
		

> As a school owner, I charged just enough to pay the rent and keep the lights on.  Nothing, I repeat nothing went into my pocket.  The few times we had a bit of excess (as from doing a seminar) it went to a children's charity.  That's just the way I roll.  I have never charged a penny for testing someone.  That was stated up front when I accepted a new student.  I was able to print out a nice certificate at Sir Speedy or Kinco for a buck and I paid it myself.  So no, I don't care about a profit.  To me the martial arts are not a business.  YMMV


Well that is very admirable.  So then why charge at all?  Just pay for everything out of your back pocket; rent, utilities, etc.  Just do it for free if it is not a business for you.

Unlike you, other have decided to base their life on being a professional martial arts teacher.  In which case they have to treat it like a business which means making profits off of things they do.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 14, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Do you really know what it is that the KKW does...



Yes I do, which is why I question the need for their existence.  It certainly didn't need to grow to the extent it has simply to house peoples certifications.  It has become a business.  That isn't a disrespectful statement, simply stating a fact.



> Well that is very admirable.  So then why charge at all?  Just pay for  everything out of your back pocket; rent, utilities, etc.  Just do it  for free if it is not a business for you.



Thank you.  Asking a student to put a little into the pot to pay the rent doesn't make it a business, it makes it personal.  It becomes 'their' school.  And since I closed the school and now teach from my home or others, I don't charge anything.  I have no overhead.  



> Unlike you, other have decided to base their life on being a  professional martial arts teacher.  In which case they have to treat it  like a business which means making profits off of things they do.



Which means they've made a choice.  I don't begrudge the honest school owner, making a reasonable living while offering a legitimate product which is fair to every student regardless of whether they're a particular nationality or not.  But not having put myself in that situation I have greater flexibility to avoid having to make a 'bottom line' a consideration.  In this way I can concentrate solely on the system itself and the best way to teach it.


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## puunui (Jul 14, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> But I can't help but feel that your simply putting an esoteric spin on what boils down to this man selling rank for profit.



You can feel whatever you want, just like he can do whatever he wants. 





Kong Soo Do said:


> Interesting opinion you postulate given you were so interested in me and my instructors rank.  Why would it matter?  If later on this afternoon I decided to promote myself to 8th Dan in my own system would you have something to say about it?  By your own words, it really doesn't matter what the number is on the paper, it is who you are and what you know that shines through.  I'm not planning to do so by-the-way, just tossing out an example.  But then you seemed to have a bit of a snit about going from 6th to 7th in one year, despite the restructuring of my rank to the new system to incorporate the totality of my 36 years in the martial arts.  Which I found rather odd since you didn't bat an eye about a Korean buying his rank and going from blue belt to 4th Dan in a year.  A bit of a double standard it would seem.  Pick one stance to stand on and stick with it my friend.



First of all, you are not my friend, you are my junior, whether you use your 1995 Korean martial arts start date, your IKA rank or even your martial arts start date which you tell us is 1975. Secondly, I did pick a stance when we discussed it the first time. I really don't care what your rank is. But you obviously do, and it was interesting watching you try to justify your questionable promotions while criticizing other people's promotions. 

Third, Kukkiwon certification is the most desired Taekwondo certification in the world, even if you don't think so. There are people out there who would do almost anything to possess it. 

Fourth, you have accused me of all kinds of stuff. Not only me, but a lot of people and taekwondo as a whole too. You pretty much have nothing good to say about Taekwondo, and you constantly and unendingly criticize its value for self defense, its teachers, its certification, its commercialism, its "cookie cutter" poomsae, and its competition aspects. And you seem to express your negative opinions regarding Taekwondo with a lot of anger and hostility. I cannot help but feel like people who went out of their way to tear down the USTU felt the same anger and hostility when they were doing their thing, as did competitor who is the subject of this thread. You have a lot in common with those people, and probably don't even know it. 

I'm actually going on vacation starting tomorrow, the first one in three years, and I need to take care of a lot of things at work before I go. So if I don't respond for a while, that is the reason. But even if I weren't so busy at the moment, I don't know how much more we can discuss. I think you've already voiced all of your criticisms of Taekwondo that you have, repeatedly, and now you are trying to keep the conversation going by talking about stuff we have all ready discussed at length before.


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## miguksaram (Jul 14, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Yes I do, which is why I question the need for their existence.  It certainly didn't need to grow to the extent it has simply to house peoples certifications.  It has become a business.  That isn't a disrespectful statement, simply stating a fact.


Why not question any organization's need for existence then, including your own?  They are all businesses.  Some function for profit some that do not.  And again, they do a lot more than house certificates.





			
				KSD said:
			
		

> Thank you.  Asking a student to put a little into the pot to pay the rent doesn't make it a business, it makes it personal.


Yes, it does.  You are asking them to pay to practice.  You can justify it as taking ownership but you still require money from them in order to participate...a business. 



			
				KSD said:
			
		

> Which means they've made a choice.  I don't begrudge the honest school owner, making a reasonable living while offering a legitimate product which is fair to every student regardless of whether they're a particular nationality or not.


But you are suggesting that KKW should not make any money on their certs and then make it mandatory for KKW instructors to not make any money on certs as well.  So I would say that is begrudging someone.  



			
				KSD said:
			
		

> But not having put myself in that situation I have greater flexibility to avoid having to make a 'bottom line' a consideration.  In this way I can concentrate solely on the system itself and the best way to teach it.


Perhaps I am missing something.  I can still concentrate on the system and the best way to teach it and still have a bottom line consideration.  Even more so because I have to make sure that what I teach is good quality if I plan on making my bottom line.  So how does "flexibility" fall into this?  Are you saying that you can just change up what you are teaching on a whim as opposed to keeping a consistent curriculum?


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 14, 2011)

puunui said:


> You can feel whatever you want, just like he can do whatever he wants.



This is correct, I can feel the way I choose and he can sell rank if he choses. 



> First of all, you are not my friend...



Yes, that is evident. However, I can still use the term towards you regardless. That is just one of the things that separate us.



> But you obviously do, and it was interesting watching you try to justify your questionable promotions while criticizing other people's promotions.



Now you're whinning Glenn. You don't question your instructor selling rank, but you 'question' a man who has nearly 50 years in the arts promoting a man with 36 years in the arts (and both were/are in careers that involve the real use of the martial arts almost on a daily basis). Another thing that separates us.



> Third, Kukkiwon certification is the most desired Taekwondo certification in the world, even if you don't think so. There are people out there who would do almost anything to possess it.



I think you mean that there are people out there willing to do anything to sell it??? And just to clarify, if anyone reading this has truly trained hard, given their all and EARNED the rank of BB and choses the KKW as their cert then thumbs up and I hope it works out for you. My comments are more towards those that haven't earned it or those that sell it. I feel those actions are dishonorable and are a slap in the face for anyone that has earned it. 



> I'm actually going on vacation starting tomorrow, the first one in three years, and I need to take care of a lot of things at work before I go. So if I don't respond for a while, that is the reason



I hope you have an awesome vacation. Just don't let anyone mess around with your left arm. It would suck to be in pain for a whole year and then have to claim it was all part of a magical/mystical technique to make it stronger when it finally healed up.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 14, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Why not question any organization's need for existence then, including your own?



Actually, I do including the one I belong to.  There really isn't a reason for any of them.  A personal instructor's certification is all that you truly need, in my opinion.

The only reason I stay with it is since it ISN"T a business i.e. we've never actually taken in any money and if we did we'd donate it somewhere anyway.  We even had official non-profit status in years past but let it drop since we just don't collect money.  I don't charge students anymore.  I don't charge for seminars.  I teach because I love to teach and feel I have something of value to pass on.  But as always, YMMV


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## puunui (Jul 14, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Another thing that separates us.




I think you pretty much separated yourself from everyone. But thanks for sharing.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 14, 2011)

Not judging from the amount of pm's I keep getting.  But thanks for your concern.  

Hey...aren't you suppose to be on vacation?  :drinkbeer


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## jks9199 (Jul 14, 2011)

Hey, guys, if you've got an axe to grind with each other, how about doing it in private so that the rest of us aren't spectators...


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 14, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Hey, guys, if you've got an axe to grind with each other, how about doing it in private so that the rest of us aren't spectators...



My apologies to everyone.  It is apparent that Glenn and I don't see eye-to-eye on some issues that we are clearly both passionate about.  Sometimes when two people are as passionate as we are in our views it can come across as rather harsh towards each other.  Although I can't agree with Glenn on these issues as a matter of principle, I sincerely bear him no ill will and actually do hope he has an excellent vacation.  

So rather than a couple of guys on the net duking it out, let's get back to the topic of the thread which was a couple of guys actually duking it out :uhyeah:


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## Master Dan (Jul 26, 2011)

I see so your premise is that based on income determines if a person is professional or amature? Well some one recently at a national seminar was stating that well you need such and such attitude or you should just stick to teaching in your garage. Then the SC demo team came out from LA finished a fine demo seminare and state oh by the way we train in a garage and back yard and college? Is there no respect for dedication father to son master to deciple heart to heart regardless of what money exchanges? There are those who have something to share and want to give that cannot be sold or bought for any price regardless of terms but jealousy seems to have to lable this or that?? sad


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 26, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> I see so your premise is that based on income determines if a person is professional or amature? Well some one recently at a national seminar was stating that well you need such and such attitude or you should just stick to teaching in your garage. Then the SC demo team came out from LA finished a fine demo seminare and state oh by the way we train in a garage and back yard and college? Is there no respect for dedication father to son master to deciple heart to heart regardless of what money exchanges? There are those who have something to share and want to give that cannot be sold or bought for any price regardless of terms but jealousy seems to have to lable this or that?? sad



This is a very good point.  The size of the Dojang is inmaterial to the actual quality of the student.  Many of the Original Okinawan masters either taught from their homes or had very small (at least initially) schools.  And they produced many quality masters that in some cases went on to found their own styles.  I've seen comments in other threads that I shake my head at such as McDojang owners driving their BMW's and laughing all the way to the bank.  I have a hard time comprehending that type of ethic.  Perhaps I'm jaded, but I prefer to see an instructor pour out of himself/herself because they love the art and love to teach and have the students upmost in their mind.  These are the types of instructors I've been blessed to have and it made an impact on me.  They had integrity, were honest in their motives and loved to teach.  I think that sort of ethic translates onto the students.


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## Jaeimseu (Jul 27, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> This is a very good point. The size of the Dojang is inmaterial to the actual quality of the student. Many of the Original Okinawan masters either taught from their homes or had very small (at least initially) schools. And they produced many quality masters that in some cases went on to found their own styles. I've seen comments in other threads that I shake my head at such as McDojang owners driving their BMW's and laughing all the way to the bank. I have a hard time comprehending that type of ethic. Perhaps I'm jaded, but I prefer to see an instructor pour out of himself/herself because they love the art and love to teach and have the students upmost in their mind. These are the types of instructors I've been blessed to have and it made an impact on me. They had integrity, were honest in their motives and loved to teach. I think that sort of ethic translates onto the students.



Does it have to be one or the other? Why can't an instructor pour himself into his teaching and also make a good living? Assuming that what you teach has value, why would it be wrong to receive payment?


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## Jaeimseu (Jul 27, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> I see so your premise is that based on income determines if a person is professional or amature? Well some one recently at a national seminar was stating that well you need such and such attitude or you should just stick to teaching in your garage. Then the SC demo team came out from LA finished a fine demo seminare and state oh by the way we train in a garage and back yard and college? Is there no respect for dedication father to son master to deciple heart to heart regardless of what money exchanges? There are those who have something to share and want to give that cannot be sold or bought for any price regardless of terms but jealousy seems to have to lable this or that?? sad



I certainly think its possible for people to receive quality training in their garage with their dad or whoever, but...in my personal experience, those people have been few and far between. I've met more garage trained people who were over all sub-par in my opinion than the other way around, although I haven't met all that many garage trained people in my travels. 

I certainly think that belonging to a recognizable school or organization is more likely to lend credibility to a martial artist, for the same reason that people want to attend an accredited college or university. Regardless of the quality of training a person received in someone's garage or backyard, the recognizable certificate is usually going to carry more weight.


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## miguksaram (Jul 27, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> I see so your premise is that based on income determines if a person is professional or amature? Well some one recently at a national seminar was stating that well you need such and such attitude or you should just stick to teaching in your garage. Then the SC demo team came out from LA finished a fine demo seminare and state oh by the way we train in a garage and back yard and college? Is there no respect for dedication father to son master to deciple heart to heart regardless of what money exchanges? There are those who have something to share and want to give that cannot be sold or bought for any price regardless of terms but jealousy seems to have to lable this or that?? sad



Who are you addressing this to?


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## miguksaram (Jul 27, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> This is a very good point.  The size of the Dojang is inmaterial to the actual quality of the student.  Many of the Original Okinawan masters either taught from their homes or had very small (at least initially) schools.  And they produced many quality masters that in some cases went on to found their own styles.


I agree that the size does not matter.  I know of a large TKD school which produces some great competitors and instructors.  I know of a small HKD school that does the same.



> I've seen comments in other threads that I shake my head at such as McDojang owners driving their BMW's and laughing all the way to the bank.  I have a hard time comprehending that type of ethic.


And I have experienced "garage" teachers claiming that they were the last line of a secret art taught only within a family so they teach privately.  Turns out they took a few lesson here a few lessons there mixed up into their own Takeyourdo system.  My point is that bad ethics does not only affect big schools.



> Perhaps I'm jaded, but I prefer to see an instructor pour out of himself/herself because they love the art and love to teach and have the students upmost in their mind.  These are the types of instructors I've been blessed to have and it made an impact on me.  They had integrity, were honest in their motives and loved to teach.  I think that sort of ethic translates onto the students.


That is what we would all like to see.  However, too many martial artists get hung up on this whole stigma that they are not allowed to make a good living doing what they love.  The sellout mentality runs rampant in our little circles and thus good teachers never strive.  Which would you rather see a good teacher who can make a good living and reach 200 people?  Or a good teacher "doing it for the art" and reach 2 people?


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 27, 2011)

Jaeimseu said:


> Does it have to be one or the other? Why can't an instructor pour himself into his teaching and also make a good living? Assuming that what you teach has value, why would it be wrong to receive payment?



It wouldn't necessarily be wrong to receive payment i.e. a laborer is worthy of his hire.  But there is a line between making an honest living and selling out to commercialism.  For some, the line is very distinct, for others, well they allow the line to become blurred.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 27, 2011)

Jaeimseu said:


> I certainly think that belonging to a recognizable school or organization is more likely to lend credibility to a martial artist, for the same reason that people want to attend an accredited college or university. Regardless of the quality of training a person received in someone's garage or backyard, the recognizable certificate is usually going to carry more weight.



I would respectfully dispute this.  Did Anko Itosu Sensei belong to a recognizable organization?  How about Uechi Kanbun Sensei?  The quality is in the individual, not the school or piece of paper.  And what is recognizable quality in credentials will vary widely from person to person.  What some consider the ultimate cert, others wouldn't line their bird cage with.  No, quality is in the individual regardless of the school (or backyard or garage) they train in or the cert that states their level.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 27, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Which would you rather see a good teacher who can make a good living and reach 200 people?  Or a good teacher "doing it for the art" and reach 2 people?



Providing both are honest and offer quality, either is fine.  But using your example, which is more likely to be a commercial sell out?  Which is more likely to have 6 year old BB's running around?  Which is more likely to charge an exorbitant fee for a piece of paper?  Which is more likely to be a kiddie-karate daycare center?  

I'll say it again, if an owner is honest and has his students best in mind and can make an honest living then I'll give two thumbs up to him/her.  If the properly advertise what they teach i.e. be honest if it is sport or SD and not try to market one as the other, then again, thumbs up.


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## Jaeimseu (Jul 27, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I would respectfully dispute this.  Did Anko Itosu Sensei belong to a recognizable organization?  How about Uechi Kanbun Sensei?  The quality is in the individual, not the school or piece of paper.  And what is recognizable quality in credentials will vary widely from person to person.  What some consider the ultimate cert, others wouldn't line their bird cage with.  No, quality is in the individual regardless of the school (or backyard or garage) they train in or the cert that states their level.


I totally agree that "real" quality is in the individual. I'm not really talking about that in this case, though. I'm speaking more to the perception of quality. There are, no doubt, some people with kukkiwon certification who aren't so great, just as there are many people who graduate from accredited universities who can't read or write properly, but the people with the recognizable credentials are more likely to have their credentials recognized. The people who don't have recognizable certs may have all the talent in the world, but I think most people would have doubts at first. Of course, our own experiences influence our perceptions. From reading your posts, it's obvious that you don't have much use for the kukkiwon, so it's natural that you don't place much value in their certs. In my opinion, I prefer the org certificate, because I can at least get a basic idea of what the student has learned (poomsae/sparring style), whereas with a school certificate from whoever I have no idea what to expect. The student might be great, or they might be garbage. Going back to the university analogy, for many jobs a degree from an accredited university is a minimum requirement. A person who studied at home on their own may have all the same knowledge or more than the uni graduate, but the guy with the recognizable diploma is more likely to get called back for an interview.


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## miguksaram (Jul 27, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> It wouldn't necessarily be wrong to receive payment i.e. a laborer is worthy of his hire.  But there is a line between making an honest living and selling out to commercialism.  For some, the line is very distinct, for others, well they allow the line to become blurred.



What do you mean by commercialism?


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## miguksaram (Jul 27, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I would respectfully dispute this.  Did Anko Itosu Sensei belong to a recognizable organization?  How about Uechi Kanbun Sensei?  The quality is in the individual, not the school or piece of paper.  And what is recognizable quality in credentials will vary widely from person to person.  What some consider the ultimate cert, others wouldn't line their bird cage with.  No, quality is in the individual regardless of the school (or backyard or garage) they train in or the cert that states their level.



You are comparing apples and oranges here.  Back in Itosu Sensei's days there were very few teachers and most of them knew of each other.  If you said you were a student of Itosu, then people knew what to expect.  Plus you were given a "certificate" by those instructors saying that you were allowed to teach the system.  

As for orgs, while I agree there are way too many out there, there are some legit enough that set standards for their perspective arts, JKA, KKW, IKF, etc...and others of the sort.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 27, 2011)

Jaeimseu said:


> I totally agree that "real" quality is in the individual. I'm not really talking about that in this case, though. I'm speaking more to the perception of quality. There are, no doubt, some people with kukkiwon certification who aren't so great, just as there are many people who graduate from accredited universities who can't read or write properly, but the people with the recognizable credentials are more likely to have their credentials recognized.



Let me ask this of you, what value would you place on someone with a valid KKW certificate (or from any org really) that bought the rank?  And yes, people have bought KKW rank.  Hell, I could if I wanted to spend the money.  Of what value is that cert if the person 'earned' it from a McDojang that passed out the rank like candy as long as the person paid the proper fees?  Of what value is that cert if the person thinks they're training in a martial art for SD but instead is in a martial sport?  Of what value is that cert if the majority of Dan holders are school children in a particular country that 'earned' it in a year and very probably weren't charged the same amount of money that children and/or adults in other countries were/are charged?  



> In my opinion, I prefer the org certificate, because I can at least get a  basic idea of what the student has learned (poomsae/sparring style),  whereas with a school certificate from whoever I have no idea what to  expect.



Perhaps...but perhaps not.  The real test is what one can do on the mats, not what is hanging on the wall or is around their waste.   With the exception of course for those that can no longer demonstrate physical technique due to age or disability.  But the knowledge would/should still be there.



> Going back to the university analogy, for many jobs a degree from an  accredited university is a minimum requirement. A person who studied at  home on their own may have all the same knowledge or more than the uni  graduate, but the guy with the recognizable diploma is more likely to  get called back for an interview.



Possibly, but then one can't really compare a martial arts certification to a degree or professional certification.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 27, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> What do you mean by commercialism?



I believe the TKD section here has numerous examples.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 27, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> You are comparing apples and oranges here.  Back in Itosu Sensei's days there were very few teachers and most of them knew of each other.  If you said you were a student of Itosu, then people knew what to expect.  Plus you were given a "certificate" by those instructors saying that you were allowed to teach the system.



They were given that certificate by the person who actually taught them.  Not an organization that is in effect nothing more that a paperwork processing warehouse.  Big difference.



> As for orgs, while I agree there are way too many out there, there are  some legit enough that set standards for their perspective arts, JKA,  KKW, IKF, etc...and others of the sort.



Are we talking about rigid quality control standards that are set in place to assure fairness and validity in training/testing...or are we talking about standards that can be altered at will depending upon one's nationality, financial contributions or the need to increase the organizations bottom line?  

Valid questions.


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## Jaeimseu (Jul 28, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Let me ask this of you, what value would you place on someone with a valid KKW certificate (or from any org really) that bought the rank?  And yes, people have bought KKW rank.  Hell, I could if I wanted to spend the money.  Of what value is that cert if the person 'earned' it from a McDojang that passed out the rank like candy as long as the person paid the proper fees?  Of what value is that cert if the person thinks they're training in a martial art for SD but instead is in a martial sport?  Of what value is that cert if the majority of Dan holders are school children in a particular country that 'earned' it in a year and very probably weren't charged the same amount of money that children and/or adults in other countries were/are charged?
> 
> *What value does anything have if you look at things with such a cynical eye? I don't know how many people have bought their rank, and I really don't care. People who want to cheat or take advantage of the system will do so as members of the kukkiwon or any other organization. Whether or not someone else got their rank legitimately doesn't affect the value of my cert for me. Obviously, you prefer your own certificates to the kukkiwon's. I am not really concerned with that. I have no interest in changing anyone's mind here. People are free to do what they want. I'm just guessing that for many people, the cert from the big org has more "perceived" value. The fact that people are willing to buy the cert and/or pay high prices would seem to indicate that this is true.*
> 
> ...



I hope you can read this. I'm trying to figure out the quote feature.


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## Master Dan (Jul 28, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> This is a very good point. The size of the Dojang is inmaterial to the actual quality of the student. Many of the Original Okinawan masters either taught from their homes or had very small (at least initially) schools. And they produced many quality masters that in some cases went on to found their own styles. I've seen comments in other threads that I shake my head at such as McDojang owners driving their BMW's and laughing all the way to the bank. I have a hard time comprehending that type of ethic. Perhaps I'm jaded, but I prefer to see an instructor pour out of himself/herself because they love the art and love to teach and have the students upmost in their mind. These are the types of instructors I've been blessed to have and it made an impact on me. They had integrity, were honest in their motives and loved to teach. I think that sort of ethic translates onto the students.



Your quite right but also there are some very large do jangs and GM organizations that have done great thiings as well but the one thing I have seen across the board is that money corupts at many levels this mentality of MA is only a business with formulas for this and that leave at the office do not get involved in the care and well being of your students for me violates everything about MA at its base. I was always taught that a good master would lay down his life for his students if needed and gives all that he can to those who are worthy to recieve it and in turn they owe him respect and caring in his old age as we should all of us care for our elders until death. This country and our school system would be far better off if that were taken to heart as the norm not the rare occurance? It is good to have book learning and accomplishments but nothing can replace one on one transfer of energy and spirit to inspire a long healthy and productive life and a commitment to serve others. The worship of Ego and other idols that has infiltrated a culture and indiginous art form like you said that was meant to be grass roots based father to son master to deciple in the name of being pushed to be global an Olmypic elite combined with the Western fall of society has exacted a toll. I am glad there are people like you Kong Soo Do who have decided to focus on quality for those you serve. We all have different Karma and for some it is to help one or a few but change thier lives forever. What is sad is to see so many good men stand on the side lines thinking they are too old or if they cannot have hundreds or thousands of admiring students why bother? The illusion is that we truly control where we live what we have or who we teach, fighting that goes against the energy we are supposed to tap into for happyness. Shame we have to use up 75% of our life to figure that out? But I believe the last 25% can be the best for us and others


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 28, 2011)

Jaeimseu said:


> I hope you can read this. I'm trying to figure out the quote feature.



No problem partner 

To be clear, I'm not looking at it with a cynical eye but rather a realistic one.  Ultimately, one will place value in what they perceive as valuable.  If someone wishes to ignore or overlook the inconsistencies or unethical practices of a particular organization and at the same time pay lots of money for a piece of paper from people that have never seen them to feel valid or legitimate then they will do so.  I simply choose a different path.


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## thelegendxp (Jul 28, 2011)

TKD is treated too much as a sport these days, and the martial arts ideals seem to be lost somewhere. I'm sure things like this will stop happening if people knew the "DO" of TKD.


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## Markku P (Jul 29, 2011)

thelegendxp said:


> TKD is treated too much as a sport these days, and the martial arts ideals seem to be lost somewhere. I'm sure things like this will stop happening if people knew the "DO" of TKD.



I think this is a big "cliche"..When some people don't behave in a good manner and they do stupid things, then it is because of the "sport" side.
Then we talk about "do" and how that is missing. I think some people just don't have good manners, are bad examples or just are plain idiots!
( and you will find them on both sides! "sport" or "martial arts" )

Actually I don't even separate those things today..there is just Taekwondo  ( sport or martial art )

/Markku P.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jul 29, 2011)

Markku P said:


> I think this is a big "cliche"..When some people don't behave in a good manner and they do stupid things, then it is because of the "sport" side.
> Then we talk about "do" and how that is missing. I think some people just don't have good manners, are bad examples or just are plain idiots!
> ( and you will find them on both sides! "sport" or "martial arts" )
> 
> ...


Having friends who train at 'sport' clubs and myself who trains at a non sport club, believe me, there is a difference. Neither is 'better', but each offer very different things. If someone at my club did anything even remotely like what these competitors did they would be kicked out of the club straight away. My guess is these competitors were not kicked out of their respective clubs. And Im sure many many competitors in 'sport' tkd who show poor sportsmanship are not kicked out of their clubs, actually Id be surprised if they are even disciplined at all. We had a guy a few years back who showed poor manner, he was given a warning, he persisted and was asked to leave, Ive never seen him since.


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## Markku P (Jul 30, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> And Im sure many many competitors in 'sport' tkd who show poor sportsmanship are not kicked out of their clubs, actually Id be surprised if they are even disciplined at all. We had a guy a few years back who showed poor manner, he was given a warning, he persisted and was asked to leave, Ive never seen him since.


 
I know what you mean.. but still.. Most important thing is of how instructor's themself are. I have seen ( as example ) same things in many boxing schools, but strange thing is, the most boxing clubs I know, they don't have any problem with  bad behaviour and disrespect from students and they don't talk anything about "DO" they just teach that you have to show respect and you always must have a good manners.

..but of course we can try to define what "do" means..but we don't need to go there..


/Markku P.


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## thelegendxp (Jul 30, 2011)

I do agree that the difference between sports and do does not single-handedly cause the bad manners, but i still do see, and have heard of trends that follow, and the lack of respect of Taekwondo and Taekwondo practitioners/masters that come with lack of identity as a Do rather than a sport.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 30, 2011)

Markku P said:


> I know what you mean.. but still.. Most important thing is of how instructor's themself are. I have seen ( as example ) same things in many boxing schools, but strange thing is, the most boxing clubs I know, they don't have any problem with  bad behaviour and disrespect from students and they don't talk anything about "DO" they just teach that you have to show respect and you always must have a good manners.
> 
> ..but of course we can try to define what "do" means..but we don't need to go there..
> 
> ...


Come to think of it, i for one have *never* met a poor mannered Boxer. Heh


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## hal-apino (Aug 3, 2011)

mango.man said:


> After a bit of digging it has been determined that the suspect in this incident is from "Doral Taekwondo And Family Fitness" in Doral Florida, a suburb of Miami and a USAT registered school.  http://www.doral-taekwondo.com/Home_Page.html and he is one of the captains of the school's demo team http://www.doralwolves.com/
> 
> I wonder what will come of both the punk and the school with regards to their USAT status?



Are you sure about your information?  Ricky Rodriguez is the owner of Doral and one of the most amazing respectful coaches I have ever met.   Are you sure that it was not  http://youngtaekwondo.com ???    Chris and Ray Alverez are the captains of that team which is also an AMAZING Team that works very hard.   I have not heard either of those names being the person who committed the insane act,  the name Pena however does ring a bell.


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## Poomsaeguy (Aug 3, 2011)

He was from youngs tkd


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## hal-apino (Aug 3, 2011)

Poomsaeguy said:


> He was from youngs tkd



Thank you, I did not think it was Ricky's school or his students.

Has anyone bothered to correct that information ???


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## Fisk (Aug 27, 2011)

It looks like this has made this has made it through the courts. 8 Months at a Boys Ranch. Unfortunately, the victim here still may lose his remaining teeth. 

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_18768254


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## Cyriacus (Aug 27, 2011)

Fisk said:


> It looks like this has made this has made it through the courts. 8 Months at a Boys Ranch. Unfortunately, the victim here still may lose his remaining teeth.
> 
> http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_18768254


Hey, i dont see the issue. If the Legal System is anything like it is Here, the US, or the UK (I cant remember where this happened ), he can Sue the Defendant for Damages, and have HIM pay the Medical Bills for the Replacements.


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## IcemanSK (Aug 27, 2011)

It's a fitting punishment. IMO. 8 months of incareceration on the other side of the country; away from family. He'll serve 3-4 months. A ban from TKD, too (one hopes). That should bring the message home to a 16 year old who has basically been a good kid. Horrible crime, for sure. I hope the victim can recover fully.


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## msmitht (Aug 28, 2011)

Justice is don


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 28, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Hey, i dont see the issue. If the Legal System is anything like it is Here, the US, or the UK (I cant remember where this happened ), he can Sue the Defendant for Damages, and have HIM pay the Medical Bills for the Replacements.


Are you serious? His teeth / mouth will never be the same.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 28, 2011)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Are you serious? His teeth / mouth will never be the same.


I know - But at least someone else can pay the Medical Bills. He cant get it back the way it was, whatever he does. So figuratively, working with what he has and going from there would be optimal.


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## StudentCarl (Aug 29, 2011)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Are you serious? His teeth / mouth will never be the same.



I'm not big on lawsuits, but I sure would if it was my kid. Cut-and-dried case of long-term damage and cost resulting from the action of another. So here's an interesting question: Do you just sue the student/parents, or do you include the coach/school the student came from?


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## Cyriacus (Aug 29, 2011)

StudentCarl said:


> I'm not big on lawsuits, but I sure would if it was my kid. Cut-and-dried case of long-term damage and cost resulting from the action of another. So here's an interesting question: Do you just sue the student/parents, or do you include the coach/school the student came from?


Can it really be considered the Coach/Schools Responsibility to handle the Students Temper/Misconduct?

Another Dojang of the same Organisation of mine, kicked out a Red Belt recently, for using his Training to Bully people.
Apparently hed been doing it for Months.
The Instructer is Highly Respected, and NOONE was aware that he was doing it. Not even his Parents.
Is the Teacher, therefore, at fault?

This would need to be read into, before you point fingers at the Teacher.


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## hal-apino (Aug 31, 2011)

Wouldn't the USAT Liability insurance pick it up as it did happen at their sanctioned event.


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## StudentCarl (Aug 31, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Can it really be considered the Coach/Schools Responsibility to handle the Students Temper/Misconduct?
> 
> Another Dojang of the same Organisation of mine, kicked out a Red Belt recently, for using his Training to Bully people.
> Apparently hed been doing it for Months.
> ...



Easy there, cowboy. Not pointing fingers at all. Asking for opinions as I'm both an athlete and coach. Just raising it for discussion.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 31, 2011)

StudentCarl said:


> Easy there, cowboy. Not pointing fingers at all. Asking for opinions as I'm both an athlete and coach. Just raising it for discussion.



Eh heh...
I didnt mean to sound like i was directing that at anyone specifically.

:s31:                 ...Have a Bumblebee? For Free? Especially, from Me?


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## miguksaram (Sep 1, 2011)

StudentCarl said:


> I'm not big on lawsuits, but I sure would if it was my kid. Cut-and-dried case of long-term damage and cost resulting from the action of another. So here's an interesting question: Do you just sue the student/parents, or do you include the coach/school the student came from?



You can name whoever you want in a lawsuit, coaches, parents, teacher, referees, USAT, etc.  However you will have to prove how they were responsible for this incident.


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## miguksaram (Sep 1, 2011)

hal-apino said:


> Wouldn't the USAT Liability insurance pick it up as it did happen at their sanctioned event.


Not necessarily.  I'm not sure how their insurance is structured, but since this incident did not take place during a match nor was it an accident that happened, they may not be covered for it.


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## terryl965 (Sep 1, 2011)

Well from what I understand USAT has to take steps to ensure the safety of all athletes. They may not be to blame but did they take enough precaution to keep there athletes from harm. I understand the kids left and then was let back on the floor, since is match was over why was he allowed back on the floor? Only athlete competing or ready to compete are suppose to be on the floor. Why was he allowed back into the competition area? I am not saying anybody did anything wrong just pointing out some things.


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## IcemanSK (Sep 1, 2011)

I think a court battle would be ugly & expensive for the family. The USAT might want to settle it, tho. Hard to tell. If it were my kid, I'm not sure I'd want to put him through the fight.


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## d1jinx (Sep 1, 2011)

i might be late, but on denise website she has listed where the little jerkoff got 8 months in a San Jose juvenile facility. then probey back in Fl. 

so because his dumbass couldnt control his temper, he's gonna sit in a Juvey on the other end of the country for 8 months with no mommy and daddy visits unless they pay out the $$$$ to go for a visit. idiot.

http://www.recoiltkd.com/Black-belt-gets-8-months.html

thanks for the info denise.


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## d1jinx (Sep 1, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> i might be late, but on denise website she has listed where the little jerkoff got 8 months in a San Jose juvenile facility. then probey back in Fl.
> 
> so because his dumbass couldnt control his temper, he's gonna sit in a Juvey on the other end of the country for 8 months with no mommy and daddy visits unless they pay out the $$$$ to go for a visit. idiot.
> 
> ...



oops, i am blind, didnt see post #132....

duh


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## msmitht (Sep 4, 2011)

Good that he got jail time. Will send message to other idiots out there. Is a sport when u are in the ring. But who is really to blame? The security company for allowing him back on the floor? His coach for not preparing him or handling the loss correctly? His parents for not instilling better values/morals? In the end it was his poor decision that caused this. May he learn to be a better person.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 4, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Good that he got jail time. Will send message to other idiots out there. Is a sport when u are in the ring. But who is really to blame? The security company for allowing him back on the floor? His coach for not preparing him or handling the loss correctly? His parents for not instilling better values/morals? In the end it was his poor decision that caused this. May he learn to be a better person.


To be fair, he may have been Stressed.
Stress is completely seperate to Morals, or Values.
It tends to overrule ones own Ideas in favor of sporadic ones.


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## miguksaram (Sep 6, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> To be fair, he may have been Stressed.
> Stress is completely seperate to Morals, or Values.
> It tends to overrule ones own Ideas in favor of sporadic ones.


Sorry but that is a extremely piss poor excuse.  I can understand been stressed, I have been frustrated from a loss, but I have never walked up to an opponent or stranger and sucker punched (or kick as it is) him.  He knew what he was doing was wrong, if not then that makes him a sociopath and he needs more than jail time.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 6, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Sorry but that is a extremely piss poor excuse.  I can understand been stressed, I have been frustrated from a loss, but I have never walked up to an opponent or stranger and sucker punched (or kick as it is) him.  He knew what he was doing was wrong, if not then that makes him a sociopath and he needs more than jail time.


It may seem like a Piss Poor excuse to you - But then, some people go right on ahead and Cut Themselves out of Stress.
Some People consider Schoolyard Bullying to be the Result of Stress, being Outletted in the most Base Way the Person might know how, perhaps due to Conditions in their Home.
If im not Mistaken - Suicide Attempts have been made over Stress.

These are Hardly Rational Actions, either.

EDIT: And Sports can at times be Stressful, if enough Factors are against the Individual. And Different People React to things in Different Ways.


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## miguksaram (Sep 6, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> It may seem like a Piss Poor excuse to you - But then, some people go right on ahead and Cut Themselves out of Stress.
> Some People consider Schoolyard Bullying to be the Result of Stress, being Outletted in the most Base Way the Person might know how, perhaps due to Conditions in their Home.
> If im not Mistaken - Suicide Attempts have been made over Stress.
> 
> ...



And by that line of logic, everything negative we do can be related to stress.  If I go out and rob someone it is due to stress of not having money.  If I go out and rape someone is this due to stress not having any sex at home?  I will concede that stress can trigger impulsive behavior but to allow it as an excuse on deliberate attacks or crime of opportunity opens up a floodgate for criminals to have something to blame their actions on.  

Their are morals and values not being executed here.  Even though the parents claim that this is not like him at all to do such a thing, he was intelligent enough to know what he was doing while he was doing it.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 6, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> And by that line of logic, everything negative we do can be related to stress.  If I go out and rob someone it is due to stress of not having money.  If I go out and rape someone is this due to stress not having any sex at home?  I will concede that stress can trigger impulsive behavior but to allow it as an excuse on deliberate attacks or crime of opportunity opens up a floodgate for criminals to have something to blame their actions on.
> 
> Their are morals and values not being executed here.  Even though the parents claim that this is not like him at all to do such a thing, he was intelligent enough to know what he was doing while he was doing it.


And now you are Exaggerating.

By Your Logic, this would mean that we should just ignore the existance of a Psychological Effect which can lead to;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_stress#Symptoms
So as to keep this Reply nice and short.

I never said he wouldnt know what he was doing.

But might one not say that an Attempted Suicide is a lack of the Base Human Instinct of Self Preservation, as well as a Lack of Morals for the People it would effect?
Ever seen someone put their Hand into a Solid Wall out of Anger?
Throw something accross a Room?
Shout at someone?
Smack their Head into something?
Panic Attacks?

They must all lack Morals and Values then, those Insane People.
Optionally, I could refer back to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggression#Culture.
Humans are Naturally Hostile.
We LEARN Self Control.
But Ultimately, theres still Violence. And Crime.
It doesnt make the Perpetrators lacking some Human Value.

Now, despite what you seem to have concluded, Stress isnt a Magical Card People can Draw when they have Issues.
It can be Medically Diagnosed, and is familiar to any Psychiatrist, and probably many Doctors, since it can cause Physical Pain.

Intelligence can hardly be a Factor either - Some of the Greatest Minds of both our Time and the Past had Tempers.
And they didnt exactly take Anger Management Classes.
And perhaps it was Anger.
Anger being a largely Chemical Process present Predominantly in Males, due to the Hypothalamus in the Male Brain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothalamus#Endocrine_hormones
It can be an Addiction, and a Serious Condition.
The same part of the Brain can cause someone to become addicted to Masturbation, or Sex.

Think what you will, but I am stating that these are Possibilities.
And if we were to prevent any Defendant from being able to claim such things, wed first need to Eradicate PTSD, and send any Soldier, or Victim, or any other such Mark whos Committed an Offense as a Result, to Prison. Where his State of Mind will Amplify, instead of be Improved.

I am stating this as a Viable Possibility. Not as an Excuse.
Even if someone is Influenced by Anger, or Stress, they are still Liable for their Actions. That was never in Question.


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## andyjeffries (Sep 7, 2011)

What's with the Random Capital letters In Your posts.  It makes them MUCH HARDER to rEaD!


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## Cyriacus (Sep 7, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> What's with the Random Capital letters In Your posts.  It makes them MUCH HARDER to rEaD!


Good Lord.
They are not Random.
Some Universities use a Report Standard which Capitolises some Words, based on Emphasis.
Im so used to doing it that its actually a more Comfortable/Natural way for me to Type


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## andyjeffries (Sep 7, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Good Lord.
> They are not Random.
> Some Universities use a Report Standard which Capitolises some Words, based on Emphasis.
> Im so used to doing it that its actually a more Comfortable/Natural way for me to Type



_Really?_  Do you have a reference from one of these universities for doing this?  It seems very odd as it goes against all style documents I've ever seen (and as I've said, makes the sentence much less readable).

If you're doing it based on emphasis, replacing them with italics (the correct way of emphasising text) it still reads like you're over-emphasising too many words, e.g.:

"Some _universities_ use a _report standard_ which _capitolises _[SIC] some _words_, based on _emphasis_."

I've tried searching on Google for it, but there doesn't seem to be anyone else doing this (lots of articles talk about the bad points of capitalising entire words, but none about spreading initial capitals within sentences).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_case

Anyway, this is a bit off point - just wanted to let you know that at least one person out there finds your posts harder to read because of it.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 7, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> _Really?_  Do you have a reference from one of these universities for doing this?  It seems very odd as it goes against all style documents I've ever seen (and as I've said, makes the sentence much less readable).
> 
> *Well, I Apologise for Inconveniencing your Eyes, with the way Letters come accross. *
> 
> ...



My Heart goes out to You, Sir

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emphasis_(typography)#Capitalization
Note "Words Of Important Meaning".

I think its mainly them being Inparticular about whats Important and what isnt.
It has something to do with Title Style.
In any case, like I say - Comfort. Tis a Factor


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## Tez3 (Sep 7, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> _Really?_ Do you have a reference from one of these universities for doing this? It seems very odd as it goes against all style documents I've ever seen (and as I've said, makes the sentence much less readable).
> 
> If you're doing it based on emphasis, replacing them with italics (the correct way of emphasising text) it still reads like you're over-emphasising too many words, e.g.:
> 
> ...



To be honest I find it hard to read as well, I've never known words to be capitalised for emphasis, correct English has always been italics or underlining for emphasis and capitals for proper nouns, pronouns and the start of sentences. Is it an American thing?


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## Cyriacus (Sep 7, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> To be honest I find it hard to read as well, I've never known words to be capitalised for emphasis, correct English has always been italics or underlining for emphasis and capitals for proper nouns, pronouns and the start of sentences. Is it an American thing?



I dont Live in America, and never have 

I may perhaps be Biased, by not seeing how the way Letters are placed can Hinder your Ability to Read, but im certain youll Survive


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## andyjeffries (Sep 7, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> I may perhaps be Biased, by not seeing how the way Letters are placed can Hinder your Ability to Read, but im certain youll Survive



And now you attack the poor apostrophe with your version of English!  What did it ever do to you?! ;-)


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## Cyriacus (Sep 7, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> And now you attack the poor apostrophe with your version of English!  What did it ever do to you?! ;-)


Thats just Me, being Lazy


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## miguksaram (Sep 7, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> And now you are Exaggerating.
> 
> By Your Logic, this would mean that we should just ignore the existance of a Psychological Effect which can lead to;
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_stress#Symptoms
> ...


Not at all.  I did say that I would not rule out a stress trigger if it was an heat of the moment reaction, but this was not the case.



> But might one not say that an Attempted Suicide is a lack of the Base Human Instinct of Self Preservation, as well as a Lack of Morals for the People it would effect?


Only if your moral subscribe to such a thing.  The Samurai would willing sacrifice themselves for not fulfilling their duties.  Regardless of the effects it would have on their family.  Buddhist monks willingly set themselves on fire during the Vietnam war in order make a statement.  Their actions did not contradict their morals.



> Ever seen someone put their Hand into a Solid Wall out of Anger?
> Throw something accross a Room?
> Shout at someone?
> Smack their Head into something?
> Panic Attacks?


Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes.  All of them are usually instantaneous reactions to stress.  Panic attacks would not really belong to this group as it is an internal reaction and not something that causes one person to act out towards others or inanimate objects.  



> They must all lack Morals and Values then, those Insane People.


So now we are saying that this kid is mentally ill?  Do not put words into my mouth as I never said that insane people lack morals.  However, there are some who do.  I suppose Jeffery Dahmer was just having a bad day?  John Wayne Gasey was tense from having to put on that clown make-up?

But again, we cannot use morals as a base of an argument since different cultures would have a different moral mindset.  The extreme Islamics believe that it is morally justify to kill others that do not follow their beliefs. (Please note I said EXTREME Islamics, not Muslims in general).  Some extreme Christians feel it is morally justified to kill a doctor who performs abortions since they are saving future lives.



> Optionally, I could refer back to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggression#Culture.
> Humans are Naturally Hostile.
> We LEARN Self Control.
> But Ultimately, theres still Violence. And Crime.
> It doesnt make the Perpetrators lacking some Human Value.



Yes I did a whole psychological term paper on nature vs nurture...(got an A.   )



> Now, despite what you seem to have concluded, Stress isnt a Magical Card People can Draw when they have Issues.
> It can be Medically Diagnosed, and is familiar to any Psychiatrist, and probably many Doctors, since it can cause Physical Pain.


Never said it couldn't.  I was on antidepressants at one time because of extreme amount of stress causing a depression....get this...I did not kick anyone in the face and I did not throw chairs at anything.  What I did say was the use of stress as the triggering device in this particular case was a poor excuse.



> Intelligence can hardly be a Factor either - Some of the Greatest Minds of both our Time and the Past had Tempers.
> And they didnt exactly take Anger Management Classes.
> And perhaps it was Anger.
> Anger being a largely Chemical Process present Predominantly in Males, due to the Hypothalamus in the Male Brain.
> ...


I do not disagree.  Perhaps then the parents are to blame if this is the case.  If he fell into this category then he would have shown signs of hostility prior to this incident.  Perhaps he was being coached into this mindset from his father?



> The same part of the Brain can cause someone to become addicted to Masturbation, or Sex.


Hey, leave my case study out of this. 



> Think what you will, but I am stating that these are Possibilities.
> And if we were to prevent any Defendant from being able to claim such things, wed first need to Eradicate PTSD, and send any Soldier, or Victim, or any other such Mark whos Committed an Offense as a Result, to Prison. Where his State of Mind will Amplify, instead of be Improved.


You comparing apples to oranges here.  PTSD and what this kid did are two entirely different things.  And again, I never said I would dismiss stress as a factor.  I said I would dismiss it in this case.



> I am stating this as a Viable Possibility. Not as an Excuse.


This is where we disagree.  I see using stress as the trigger an excuse in this case.  
Even if someone is Influenced by Anger, or Stress, they are still Liable for their Actions. That was never in Question.[/QUOTE]


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## Cyriacus (Sep 7, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Not at all.  I did say that I would not rule out a stress trigger if it was an heat of the moment reaction, but this was not the case.
> 
> *Granted.*
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Rational Discussion can go a long way. Yet again, this is why I like this Site.


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## miguksaram (Sep 7, 2011)

> Rational Discussion can go a long way. Yet again, this is why I like this Site.


  Exactly....I have said it before, but I will say it here.  Whenever I am posting I try to post like this is a discussion we are having over beers.  So always keep that in mind when reading and buy the next round.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 7, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Exactly....I have said it before, but I will say it here.  Whenever I am posting I try to post like this is a discussion we are having over beers.  So always keep that in mind when reading and buy the next round.


Well, everything I say is best read as though I were some Victorian Gentleman, Sipping Brandy whilst being Distracted by Scenery, and trying to have a Constructive Conversation at the same time. 

Will that be Beer or Scotch?


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## Tez3 (Sep 7, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> I dont Live in America, and never have
> 
> I may perhaps be Biased, by not seeing how the way Letters are placed can Hinder your Ability to Read, but im certain youll Survive



I have problems reading the screen at the best of times, if the post is a longish one I have to print it out to read it so anything that makes it harder for my eyes doesn't make me happy! If the letters are the same size it is easier to read tbh. A capital letter at the start of sentences helps me see the sentences.
I ask if it's American because they do odd things to the English langauge!


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## Jenna (Sep 7, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Well, everything I say is best read as though I were some Victorian Gentleman, Sipping Brandy whilst being Distracted by Scenery, and trying to have a Constructive Conversation at the same time.
> 
> Will that be Beer or Scotch?


I Might suggest Mr. Dickens, sipping Either a lot More Brandy or a Little Less with the Effect -Hopefully- of Homogenising All Your Letters, save for Capitalising Proper Names and Sentence Beginnings.  Bravo


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## Cyriacus (Sep 7, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I have problems reading the screen at the best of  times, if the post is a longish one I have to print it out to read it so  anything that makes it harder for my eyes doesn't make me happy! If the  letters are the same size it is easier to read tbh. A capital letter at  the start of sentences helps me see the sentences.
> I ask if it's American because they do odd things to the English langauge!


Ah. That makes a bit more sense - I never really considered that.
If its any consollation, I do it alot less than I did, say, Two Months ago 



Jenna said:


> I Might suggest Mr. Dickens, sipping Either a lot More Brandy or a Little Less with the Effect -Hopefully- of Homogenising All Your Letters, save for Capitalising Proper Names and Sentence Beginnings.  Bravo



Well I do it alot less than I used to


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## miguksaram (Sep 7, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Well, everything I say is best read as though I were some Victorian Gentleman, Sipping Brandy whilst being Distracted by Scenery, and trying to have a Constructive Conversation at the same time.
> 
> Will that be Beer or Scotch?


Both...duh. ha.ha.


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## Tez3 (Sep 7, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Ah. That makes a bit more sense - I never really considered that.
> If its any consollation, I do it alot less than I did, say, Two Months ago
> 
> 
> ...




In MOD buildings they've had to have all the signs changed...at great cost..as all the words were in CAPITALS and they have to be small letters other than proper nouns starting with a capital for easier reading! Brits will be pleased to see where their taxes are going!

Perhaps that's why there was an altercation... the signage was wrong! I shouldn't suggest it really, you know someone, somewhere will see it as a reasonable excuse!


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## Cyriacus (Sep 7, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> In MOD buildings they've had to have all the signs changed...at great cost..as all the words were in CAPITALS and they have to be small letters other than proper nouns starting with a capital for easier reading! Brits will be pleased to see where their taxes are going!
> 
> Perhaps that's why there was an altercation... the signage was wrong! I shouldn't suggest it really, you know someone, somewhere will see it as a reasonable excuse!



So If I Were To Do This, And Enough People Read It, I Might Start A Riot?

Hehe


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## granfire (Sep 8, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> So If I Were To Do This, And Enough People Read It, I Might Start A Riot?
> 
> Hehe



:jediduel: 
:flame::biggun:

:slapfight:

never....


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## Tez3 (Sep 8, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> So If I Were To Do This, And Enough People Read It, I Might Start A Riot?
> 
> Hehe



We've had worse excuses for the recent rioting!


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## Cyriacus (Sep 8, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> We've had worse excuses for the recent rioting!



Does This Help At All?


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