# Why a certain Association?



## shane23ss (Jan 7, 2005)

I wanted to ask every one that belongs to an Organization or Association what do you belong to and why? What I mean by why is, why an organization or association and why did you pick that particular one. What (in your own eyes) do they have/bring to you, that the others don't. Also, what is required to be a member of your org or assoc?

Any one that does not belong to any orgs or assoc. why not?

I currently belong to no orgs or assoc. because my instructor never did so I really don't know the pros and cons of it all. Thanks.


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## shane23ss (Jan 8, 2005)

No takers? Maybe I should be more specific with the question? Let me know.


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## Ceicei (Jan 8, 2005)

There are other threads that address the same question.  You might want to do a search to locate these threads.

 - Ceicei


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## shane23ss (Jan 8, 2005)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> There are other threads that address the same question. You might want to do a search to locate these threads.
> 
> - Ceicei


Yeah, I know, I was kind of hoping for some one to specifically break their ideas down for me.


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## Ceicei (Jan 8, 2005)

FWIW, my dojo doesn't belong to any formal state or national Kenpo association at this time, even though we practice Ed Parker's American Kenpo.  Why?  I don't know as I haven't asked the head instructor this question.  

 - Ceicei


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 8, 2005)

Are you asking about why you would join one association over another? 


It depends upon what an individual wants out of their training. There are a lot of good instructors out there and each in their own right have their little nitche. Some may look at the curriculum and say wow, this person really knows "how" to teach their basics of their curriculum. Some instructors like to train hard like the old days where you take your beatings then come back again to do it all over again. If you like hard training and fighting then one might think you would seek that type of an instructor out. Others may like speed. If you want to learn how to get faster you seek the best instructor you can to learn from. It all depends upon the individual looking.
 :asian:


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## shane23ss (Jan 10, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> ...It depends upon what an individual wants out of their training. There are a lot of good instructors out there...


Are you saying you would pick a certain association based on its members? Is that the only pro to joining orgs or assoc? As in, "I can't train with that person unless I am a member"?
Respectfully,
Shane


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## Karazenpo (Jan 10, 2005)

Shane, I guess you could say you join a particular association or organization for the same reasons you would join MartialTalk and other martial arts discussion forums. Since I've got involved in several of the forums I have not only broadened my knowledge, diversified and learned from others but I have also made new friends. I have visited a school in New Hampshire and given a seminar from someone I met on the Kajukenbo Cafe who's also a member of MT (Sensei John Evans) I've been visited by several different members of this forum and plan to get together with several in the near future, some to teach, others to exchange information, although even in teaching, the teacher also can become the student. I have gone to my association events only to meet someone on this forum (Shaun-Kenpo5th) and hit it off like we knew each other all along, perhaps because we have...... A good association can be like a 'brotherhood'. Way back in 1987, I joined the U.S. Police Defensive Tactics Association based out of Ohio, I'm in Massachusetts, knew really nothing about it and I made some very close friends for life. It's founder, Gm. Ray Szuch, my wife Kathy and I became great friends and still get together every so often. We are currently planning a reunion of some of the original members, retired heavyweight kickboxing champ Joe Hess and Tuhon Leo Gaje are just a couple of them. All this from a mailing list type of letter to my school pitching the USPDTA. It can be a nice camaderie if you join the right group(s) and usually the fees aren't that extravagant, so it can be worth taking the chance.


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 10, 2005)

Im a member of WSKO (World Shorinji Kempo Organisation), but then I cant do Shorinji Kempo without being a member. Membership is just a small once in a lifetime fee and entitles you to visit Hombu and train throughout the year at their regular study sessions, attend the International Taikai every for years, attend WSKO regional taikai and study sessions, and be graded.

Im also a member of the MAIA (Martial Arts Industry Association), this is the Federal Governments appointed industry governing body for martial arts in Australia. This is a somewhat more expensive fee, and requires payment annually. This provides me access to cheap insurance, a subsidy on any coaching courses I do, and a subsidy on coaching licence renewals. It also provides potential students with some confidence that they are training with someone who has the correct skills to teach them a martial art, has the required insurance in case something goes wrong, and has agreed to an industry code of conduct.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jan 10, 2005)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> Im a member of WSKO (World Shorinji Kempo Organisation), but then I cant do Shorinji Kempo without being a member. Membership is just a small once in a lifetime fee and entitles you to visit Hombu and train throughout the year at their regular study sessions, attend the International Taikai every for years, attend WSKO regional taikai and study sessions, and be graded.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Bill Lear (Jan 10, 2005)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> Im a member of WSKO (World Shorinji Kempo Organisation), but then I cant do Shorinji Kempo without being a member. Membership is just a small once in a lifetime fee and entitles you to visit Hombu and train throughout the year at their regular study sessions, attend the International Taikai every for years, attend WSKO regional taikai and study sessions, and be graded.
> 
> Im also a member of the MAIA (Martial Arts Industry Association), this is the Federal Governments appointed industry governing body for martial arts in Australia. This is a somewhat more expensive fee, and requires payment annually. This provides me access to cheap insurance, a subsidy on any coaching courses I do, and a subsidy on coaching licence renewals. It also provides potential students with some confidence that they are training with someone who has the correct skills to teach them a martial art, has the required insurance in case something goes wrong, and has agreed to an industry code of conduct.



Mr. Linz,

I checked out the links that you provided for Shorinji Kempo, and there is a slight difference between the logo for the World Shorinji Kempo Organization and the logo you're using as your avatar here. The most noticeable difference between the two designs is that there appears to be a swastika in the center of your logo vs. the Kanji in the center of the original one. I'm not trying to imply anything, but what is the significance of this change? Is it a swastika or am I just seeing things?


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## Ceicei (Jan 10, 2005)

I noticed the swastika too. I think it is the original "good luck" symbol. (The Nazi swastika is angled differently.)  Anyway, why would it matter if his avatar uses a swastika rather than a kanji? I think it would be interesting though, to find out why he chose to modify the logo. I am curious too and you were the first to express what I was thinking.

   - Ceicei


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 10, 2005)

Sorry to repeat the art that I do, I only did as it was in context to the thread. I didnt even think about the other links.

The symbol that is in my averter is tate manji. It is manji surrounded by shields. We also used the manji on its own, and as you have seen the tate ken symbol. The one with ken in the middle was adopted by European countries because of the bad feelings towards a symbol that looked like a swastika. This will change from 1st of April. WSKO will be moving to a new symbol, this one will be universally used and is designed to better reflect the meaning manji, without the visual link to the Nazis symbol.

Manji is the Kanji used to denote Buddhism in Japan. It is a very ancient symbol that predates Buddhism, but has been used by Buddhist in India, China, Japan and maybe even elsewhere. It is a pictorial representation of the ever-changing universe. I wont bore you with a complete run down of its meaning, I just wanted to give you an idea why it has nothing to do with the Nazi symbol. Our new symbol is rather more boring; it is just the tate around two interlinked circles. Hopefully it will ease peoples minds and not revive peoples bad memories and pain.

Once again sorry for repeating what I do so often, I have been on this board long enough to become known and I think everyone will have clearly understood by now that Im not part of the American Kenpo comunitity.


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## Bill Lear (Jan 10, 2005)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> Sorry to repeat the art that I do, I only did as it was in context to the thread. I didnt even think about the other links.
> 
> The symbol that is in my averter is tate manji. It is manji surrounded by shields. We also used the manji on its own, and as you have seen the tate ken symbol. The one with ken in the middle was adopted by European countries because of the bad feelings towards a symbol that looked like a swastika. This will change from 1st of April. WSKO will be moving to a new symbol, this one will be universally used and is designed to better reflect the meaning manji, without the visual link to the Nazis symbol.
> 
> ...



Mr. Linz,

Thank you for your answer. You've definately taught me something new. I'm glad to see that looks aren't everything.


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## Bill Lear (Jan 10, 2005)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I noticed the swastika too. I think it is the original "good luck" symbol. (The Nazi swastika is angled differently.)  Anyway, why would it matter if his avatar uses a swastika rather than a kanji? I think it would be interesting though, to find out why he chose to modify the logo. I am curious too and you were the first to express what I was thinking.
> 
> - Ceicei



The swastika is a cross with its arms bent 90° to either right or left. It is usually oriented horizontally or at a 45° angle. Its Indian form typically features a dot in each quadrant.

The word swastika is derived from the Sanskrit &#2360;&#2381;&#2357;&#2360;&#2381;&#2340;&#2367;&#2325;, svastika, meaning any lucky or auspicious object, and in particular a mark made on persons and things to denote good luck. It is composed of su- (cognate with Greek &#949;&#965;-), meaning "good, well" and asti a verbal abstract to the root as "to be"; svasti thus means "well-being". The suffix -ka forms a diminutive, and svastika might thus be translated literally as "little thing associated with well-being", corresponding roughly to "lucky charm".

The swastika appears in art and design throughout human history, symbolising many different things  luck, Surya (the sun), Brahma, or the Hindu concept of samsara. In fact, the swastika is used primarily as a religious symbol by Hindus  it was first mentioned in the Vedas, the holy texts of Hinduism  but transferred to other Indic religions like Buddhism and Jainism. It also occurs in other Asian, European, and Native American cultures  sometimes as a simple geometrical motif, sometimes as a religious symbol. The almost universally positive meanings of the swastika were subverted in the early twentieth century when it was adopted as the emblem of the National Socialist German Workers Party. Since World War II, most Westerners see it as solely a fascist symbol, leading to incorrect assumptions about its pre-Nazi use and its use in other cultures.


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## Ceicei (Jan 10, 2005)

Thank you, Mr. Lear,

 I enjoyed the brief history lesson. It confirmed what I initially thought, but expanded more upon its origin. I've seen it symbolized with several American Indian tribes; I didn't realize how far ranging the "good luck" symbol went within different societies. Thank you again.

  - Ceicei


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## Bill Lear (Jan 11, 2005)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Thank you, Mr. Lear,
> 
> I enjoyed the brief history lesson. It confirmed what I initially thought, but expanded more upon its origin. I've seen it symbolized with several American Indian tribes; I didn't realize how far ranging the "good luck" symbol went within different societies. Thank you again.
> 
> - Ceicei



I thought you would find the information interesting. I talked to Mr. Conatser a little bit earlier tonight about the similar Japanese symbol. He says he'll expand on the definition Mr. Linz posted once he gets home and can dig up his notes on the subject.  :asian:


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## MA-Caver (Jan 11, 2005)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> The swastika is a cross with its arms bent 90° to either right or left. It is usually oriented horizontally or at a 45° angle. Its Indian form typically features a dot in each quadrant.
> 
> The word swastika is derived from the Sanskrit &#2360;&#2381;&#2357;&#2360;&#2381;&#2340;&#2367;&#2325;, svastika, meaning any lucky or auspicious object, and in particular a mark made on persons and things to denote good luck. It is composed of su- (cognate with Greek &#949;&#965;-), meaning "good, well" and asti a verbal abstract to the root as "to be"; svasti thus means "well-being". The suffix -ka forms a diminutive, and svastika might thus be translated literally as "little thing associated with well-being", corresponding roughly to "lucky charm".
> 
> The swastika appears in art and design throughout human history, symbolising many different things  luck, Surya (the sun), Brahma, or the Hindu concept of samsara. In fact, the swastika is used primarily as a religious symbol by Hindus  it was first mentioned in the Vedas, the holy texts of Hinduism  but transferred to other Indic religions like Buddhism and Jainism. It also occurs in other Asian, European, and Native American cultures  sometimes as a simple geometrical motif, sometimes as a religious symbol. The almost universally positive meanings of the swastika were subverted in the early twentieth century when it was adopted as the emblem of the National Socialist German Workers Party. Since World War II, most Westerners see it as solely a fascist symbol, leading to incorrect assumptions about its pre-Nazi use and its use in other cultures.



Right, and that's sad. My first exposure to the "other" meaning of the swastika came (oddly enough) from that old Tee-vee show "The Night Stalker" with Darren McGavin. It was an old hindu fella that painted it all over the alley walls and elsewhere to ward off a demon that haunted the neighborhood. Problem was the hindu fella lived in a Jewish neighborhood. 
Anyway, utilizing the mythology and the story line got me to looking deeper into the faith and history and found wow... cool, a different way of looking at things. I've been studying other faiths/religions since. 
I was about 13 at the time but it helped the start of a more broader mind. 
 :asian:


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 11, 2005)

If you would like to find out more about the manji and its use in Buddhism and Shorinji Kempo, as it is a Buddhist based art have a look at this link. There are two ways of viewing it, ura and omote, and it means much more than good luck. I didn't mention this before as I thought there would not be the interest.http://www.shorinji-kempo.org/articles/manji/manji_en.html The scroll that you will see with the manji at the top and the kanji underneath is placed at the front of class, the kanji says Darma  (universal law).


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## Ceicei (Jan 11, 2005)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> If you would like to find out more about the manji and its use in Buddhism and Shorinji Kempo, as it is a Buddhist based art have a look at this link. There are two ways of viewing it, ura and omote, and it means much more than good luck. I didn't mention this before as I thought there would not be the interest.http://www.shorinji-kempo.org/articles/manji/manji_en.html The scroll that you will see with the manji at the top and the kanji underneath is placed at the front of class, the kanji says Darma (universal law).


 Thank you for the link. I will explore that more as I find this subject rather intriguing. What I liked most are the explanations of the omote manji and the ura manji.

   - Ceicei


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## shane23ss (Jan 11, 2005)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Shane, I guess you could say you join a particular association or organization for the same reasons you would join MartialTalk and other martial arts discussion forums. Since I've got involved in several of the forums I have not only broadened my knowledge, diversified and learned from others but I have also made new friends. I have visited a school in New Hampshire and given a seminar from someone I met on the Kajukenbo Cafe who's also a member of MT (Sensei John Evans) I've been visited by several different members of this forum and plan to get together with several in the near future, some to teach, others to exchange information, although even in teaching, the teacher also can become the student. I have gone to my association events only to meet someone on this forum (Shaun-Kenpo5th) and hit it off like we knew each other all along, perhaps because we have...... A good association can be like a 'brotherhood'. Way back in 1987, I joined the U.S. Police Defensive Tactics Association based out of Ohio, I'm in Massachusetts, knew really nothing about it and I made some very close friends for life. It's founder, Gm. Ray Szuch, my wife Kathy and I became great friends and still get together every so often. We are currently planning a reunion of some of the original members, retired heavyweight kickboxing champ Joe Hess and Tuhon Leo Gaje are just a couple of them. All this from a mailing list type of letter to my school pitching the USPDTA. It can be a nice camaderie if you join the right group(s) and usually the fees aren't that extravagant, so it can be worth taking the chance.


Simply put, that's a pretty good answer.:asian:


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## Bill Lear (Jan 11, 2005)

shane23ss said:
			
		

> Simply put, that's a pretty good answer.:asian:



I think it is too.  :asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 11, 2005)

shane23ss said:
			
		

> Are you saying you would pick a certain association based on its members? Is that the only pro to joining orgs or assoc? As in, "I can't train with that person unless I am a member"?
> Respectfully,
> Shane



No, nothing like that.

If I were looking for say, someone who taught strong basics and emphasized basics in every class then that's who I personally would want to study under. IF that's what I wanted out of training. Of course knowledge, and reasoning for doing things the way it is to be taught and can back it up is high on my list, personally.


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## shane23ss (Jan 11, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> No, nothing like that.
> 
> If I were looking for say, someone who taught strong basics and emphasized basics in every class then that's who I personally would want to study under. IF that's what I wanted out of training. Of course knowledge, and reasoning for doing things the way it is to be taught and can back it up is high on my list, personally.


Yeah, I see your point here. I was also wondering how the correspondence goes between members of orgs. and assoc.?


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## Goldendragon7 (Jan 11, 2005)

shane23ss said:
			
		

> Yeah, I see your point here. I was also wondering how the correspondence goes between members of orgs. and assoc.?


 Well, I can only speak for myself, but I talk to many different organization leaders.  The world is much smaller than most people are aware of or think.  Many senior students and organization heads talk to each other on a regular basis.

 :asian:


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## shane23ss (Jan 12, 2005)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Well, I can only speak for myself, but I talk to many different organization leaders. The world is much smaller than most people are aware of or think. Many senior students and organization heads talk to each other on a regular basis.
> 
> :asian:


Are you talking mainly via internet or phone, or travel?


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## Goldendragon7 (Jan 13, 2005)

shane23ss said:
			
		

> Are you talking mainly via internet or phone, or travel?


 Actually...... all of the above.
 :ultracool


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## shane23ss (Jan 13, 2005)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Actually...... all of the above.
> :ultracool


That's what I thought. I do have one more question, what are you referring to as a "senior student"? Are you talking 1st and 2nd BB's running a school, or something else? Thanks Sir.


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## shane23ss (Jan 14, 2005)

Does any one know what asociation Michael Acord belongs to? I noticed he is listed as an EKKS BB on Brint Berry's web site, but has the IKKS listed on his web site.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jan 14, 2005)

shane23ss said:
			
		

> Does any one know what asociation Michael Acord belongs to? I noticed he is listed as an EKKS BB on Brint Berry's web site, but has the IKKS listed on his web site.


Oh yea, like the IKKS (hint, Bob Jones in Vegas, went from 5th to 8th degree in a couple of months) is going to validate him, NOT>

DarK LorD


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## shane23ss (Jan 14, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Oh yea, like the IKKS (hint, Bob Jones in Vegas, went from 5th to 8th degree in a couple of months) is going to validate him, NOT>
> 
> DarK LorD


I guess that means he doesn't belong to the IKKS?


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## Goldendragon7 (Jan 14, 2005)

shane23ss said:
			
		

> What are you referring to as a "senior student"?
> Are you talking 1st and 2nd BB's running a school, or something else? Thanks Sir.


 What and who I was referring to as "Senior Students" were many of the Organizational Heads and/or anyone above the rank of 5th or higher.  Many of those listed in the "Journey" talk back and forth regularly or often.

 Hope that is a bit clearer.

 :ultracool


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## shane23ss (Jan 14, 2005)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> What and who I was referring to as "Senior Students" were many of the Organizational Heads and/or anyone above the rank of 5th or higher. Many of those listed in the "Journey" talk back and forth regularly or often.
> 
> Hope that is a bit clearer.
> 
> :ultracool


Got it. Thanks Sir.:asian:


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jan 14, 2005)

shane23ss said:
			
		

> I guess that means he doesn't belong to the IKKS?


Actually, he probably does belong to that org., but look who's running it  

http://www.eastwestkenpokarate.com/masterTheArt.html

It says 7th but I'm told he's got an 8th degree cert. as well but didn't feel comfortable putting it on just yet, he needed to let the 7th set in for awhile LOL.    There's some integrity there huh?

DarK LorD


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jan 14, 2005)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> What and who I was referring to as "Senior Students" were many of the Organizational Heads and/or anyone above the rank of 5th or higher. Many of those listed in the "Journey" talk back and forth regularly or often.
> 
> Hope that is a bit clearer.
> 
> :ultracool


Senior Student, that would be me LOL.

DarK LorD


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## shane23ss (Jan 14, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Actually, he probably does belong to that org., but look who's running it
> 
> http://www.eastwestkenpokarate.com/masterTheArt.html
> 
> ...


Yeah, I looked at that. I don't really know a whole lot about it to make any assumptions. I'm just going through what I can as far as research of different orgs. and assoc. Thinking of maybe trying one out in the future. What is the general opinion of Mr Acord? I don't know a whole heck of a lot about him other than what I've read on his site.

GD7,
About the information I PM'd you about a couple weeks back, I was unable to get a contact phone number for that individual. To my understanding he is no longer teaching kenpo. Not sure though:idunno: , can't seem to track him down again. Thanks for your help.:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jan 14, 2005)

Originally Posted by [b said:
			
		

> Goldendragon7[/b]]
> 
> _What and who I was referring to as "Senior Students" were many of the Organizational Heads and/or anyone above the rank of 5th or higher. Many of those listed in the "Journey" talk back and forth regularly or often.
> Hope that is a bit clearer.:ultracool_





			
				Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Senior Student, that would be me LOL.
> DarK LorD


 No... I havn't talked with you for many moons now... LOL


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