# Windmills kill endangered eagles...



## billc (Feb 18, 2012)

Apparently two endangered golden eagles were killed by windmills recently.  It will be interesting to see the green shirts battle the animal rights extremists.  I wonder who will win...

Here is an article on the death of endangered eagles at the hands of windmills, I found it at the L.A times since some here won't watch a video linked through breitbart.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/06/local/la-me-adv-wind-eagles-20110606


> Reporting from Oakland &#8212; Scores of protected golden eagles have been dying each year after colliding with the blades of about 5,000 wind turbines along the ridgelines of the Bay Area's Altamont Pass Wind Resource Area, raising troubling questions about the state's push for alternative power sources.


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2012)

You mean wind turbines. Windmills have been around for centuries and aren't known for killing birds, Accuracy dear boy accuracy.

These are windmills.


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## Buka (Feb 18, 2012)

I really like eagles. I really like windmills, too,  and I really like wind turbines. I guess I'm screwed.


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2012)

Well one could say that if these birds are stupid enough to fly into what after all is a huge edifice then maybe evolution is at work here.


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## WC_lun (Feb 18, 2012)

Power lines are responsible for more eagle deaths than any other thing.  Funny that I haven't seen any activist calling for them to be torn down, either from the left or right.  Once again posting a link to a story on a non-issue because the story critiques something you believe is "left wing."


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> Power lines are responsible for more eagle deaths than any other thing. Funny that I haven't seen any activist calling for them to be torn down, either from the left or right. Once again posting a link to a story on a non-issue because the story critiques something you believe is "left wing."




In Switzerland the powerlines are all buried along with the telephone lines. I was watching the tour of Switzerland last year (cycling) and there was something odd but I couldn't put my finger on it until the commentator, talking about the helicopter camera shots mentioned about all the lines being underground. It makes such a pleasant difference. I was in Switzerland over 30 years ago and can't remember whether or not we saw any powerlines then.

The opposition against and the promotion of powerlines isn't drawn along party lines here but whether you live near them, benefit from them or hate them etc.


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## WC_lun (Feb 18, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> The opposition against and the promotion of powerlines isn't drawn along party lines here but whether you live near them, benefit from them or hate them etc.



That is pretty much how it is here too, unless you are trying gin up contraversy to have yet another pointless us vs them arguement.


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## Haakon (Feb 18, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> Power lines are responsible for more eagle deaths than any other thing.  Funny that I haven't seen any activist calling for them to be torn down, either from the left or right.  Once again posting a link to a story on a non-issue because the story critiques something you believe is "left wing."



But in many places power line poles are modified with a higher perch  built on the top of the pole so raptors don't get electrocuted when taking off. Some power companies put a lot of effort (and money) into doing what they can to protect raptors from power lines. http://www.idahopower.com/pdfs/ourEnvironment/brochures/BirdBook.pdf

This site: http://www.alternativeenergyprimer.com/Do-Wind-Turbines-Kill-Birds.html puts forth the case that the Altmont Pass windfarm situation wouldn't happen today, it's stupidly located right near a bird sancturary and on the migratory path - so duh, it's killing lots of birds. 

Who will win in this battle between the animal rights activists and the green power people? Unfortunately like most lawsuits in the US it will come down to who is willing to spend more money on their position.


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## billc (Feb 18, 2012)

Wind mills, which are now used to generate electricity, aren't a political issue for me, they are a "do they actually work," issue for me.  For others, however, they are a quasi-earth religion issue with the environmental extremists.

Ask Sukerkin about windmills, and wether they are worth the cost or not.

Besides, this is far more than an Us vs. Them argument...

http://news.investors.com/article/601508/201202161851/obama-green-energy-scandal-grows-deeper.htm



> Obama's green energy scandal is more than Solyndra, the failed solar panel maker that squandered $535 million of Obama stimulus cash and hosted the president for a propaganda visit. It's a series of green-energy companies failing despite the administration's ceaseless promotion of the industry and the unseemly White House ties that run throughout.While the legacy media often shills for Democrats, sometimes an outlet surprises us, as the Washington Post did with this week's story outlining the shady Obama links to the clean-energy industry and implying the administration has engaged in first-class corruption.Post reporters, for instance, "found that $3.9 billion in federal grants and financing flowed to 21 companies backed by firms with connections to five Obama administration staffers and advisers."Named in the story is Sanjay Wagle, "venture capitalist" and "Obama fundraiser" who joined the Energy Department, which "provided $2.4 billion in public funding to clean-energy companies in which Wagle's former firm, Vantage Point Venture Partners, had invested."And there's Steven Spinner, a "bundler of Obama campaign contributions who," we noted last fall, became an adviser at the Energy Department where he "pushed hard" for the Solyndra loan. Spinner is also married to a partner in the law firm that represented Solyndra.Going deeper, we find Steve Westly, identified by the Post as "an Obama fundraising bundler" who "served part time" on an Energy Department advisory board and "communicated with senior White House officials."​



And from the washington post on the clean-energy scandal with obama's white house...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...y-department/2011/12/30/gIQA05raER_story.html

At least with Oil, Coal and Natural gas, you actually get energy for your government corruption.  With this clean energy corruption you get billions of wasted dollars and the absolutely no energy whatsoever...


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## elder999 (Feb 18, 2012)

billcihak said:


> .[/URL]]Wind mills, which are now used to generate electricity, aren't a political issue for me, they are a "do they actually work," issue for me.  For others, however, they are a quasi-earth religion issue with the environmental extremists.
> 
> Ask Sukerkin about windmills, and wether they are worth the cost or not.
> 
> ...



Actually, billi, this isn't the proper way to frame this argument. Xcel Energy and PNM actually have several wind farms, and coal plants are often derated due to cheap wind energy being produced. These are the utilities that I've actually dealt with professionally, and have first hand knowledge of this-there may be others

I also know from personal experience that green energy sources are viable and profitable alternatives on an individual household basis, for those that are properly sited for them, and can afford them. 

I mean, I wouldn't put up a photovoltaic array in Seattle, but here in New Mexico, it makes perfect sense, as long as you have $30,000 to spend. Windmills are similar-there are places here in NM where they make sense for a homeowner-and PNM's windfarm in Tucumcari produces a lot of electricity.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 18, 2012)

Aye, as an alternative 'power station' wind-turbines don't make a great deal of sense either economically or environmentally.  The caveat being, of course, that if the present cheap price of fossil-fuel energy changes then so will the viability of commercial wind-energy.  Environmentally, we need to find a way of planting these beasties in situ that does not require such large amounts of concrete (for it is that that unzips the carbon equation for the turbines).

For local energy needs tho'. they have a role to play.  For, as with many alternative sources. where they really come into play is reducing 'grid dependence' at the scale of a single household or business.  Without government subsidy they don't make a great power station but they are great at reducing the demands upon existing power stations and 'personal' installations don't carry such a heavy environmental burden as commercial scale ones.

Mind you, every cloud has a silver lining and the current mania for wind farms in and around this country (the UK) means that certain devices that were going the way of the Dodo (like Quad Boosters and similar reactive plant) are making a come back to smooth out the appalling power quality of wind turbines.  I wish it were not so, Green Activist People, but we really are better off building nuke stations to tide us over until we get viable fusion (and we will get that ... some day ).


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## Sukerkin (Feb 18, 2012)

Techie details for the interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadrature_booster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_VAR_compensator

http://www.scribd.com/doc/59566429/...11;THYRISTOR-CONTROLLED-REACTOR-MSC&#8211;TCR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible_AC_transmission_system


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## billc (Feb 18, 2012)

Thank you Sukerkin.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 18, 2012)

No problem - something I hope has become clear over the past couple of years is that if you're not wrong I won't argue that you are just to excercise my fingertips or for the sake of arguing .  After all, ideology is one thing and engineering is quite another .


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## billc (Feb 18, 2012)

I feel the same way Sukerkin.  That is also the reason that I keep study specific topics in the study and out of the other areas.


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## WC_lun (Feb 19, 2012)

If the original post was about the effectiveness of wind turbines and your opinion on that, then that is valid stuff.  However, your OP was titled "Windmills kill endangered eagles..." and nothing in the original post said a word about thier effectiveness.  Only when challenged did you resort back to the wind turbines effectiveness.  It is one thing to post your opinions on stuff, it is quite another to constantly post links attacking those that are left of your particular view point.  It becomes obvious that the attacking has become more important than the substance of the post.


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## elder999 (Feb 19, 2012)

WC_lun said:
			
		

> If the original post was about the effectiveness of wind turbines and your opinion on that, then that is valid stuff.  However, your OP was titled "Windmills kill endangered eagles..." and nothing in the original post said a word about thier effectiveness.  Only when challenged did you resort back to the wind turbines effectiveness.  It is one thing to post your opinions on stuff, it is quite another to constantly post links attacking those that are left of your particular view point.  It becomes obvious that the attacking has become more important than the substance of the post.



More to the point, the Golden Eagle's status is "protected," they aren't "endangered" at all, and, as WC_lun pointed out, many more birds of prey die due to high-tension lines than wind turbines-this is, in fact, the greatest single source of eagle feathers for Native Americans.


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## Tez3 (Feb 19, 2012)

Here eagles tend to be poisoned by gamekeepers and farmers who believe the eagles take the game birds and the lambs.


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## billc (Feb 19, 2012)

> Apparently two endangered golden eagles were killed by windmills recently. It will be interesting to see the green shirts battle the animal rights extremists. I wonder who will win...
> 
> Here is an article on the death of endangered eagles at the hands of windmills, I found it at the L.A times since some here won't watch a video linked through breitbart.
> 
> ...



Besides, Lun, you brought up the left wing thing, and I responded by pointing out it isn't political for me.  I don't care where energy comes from as long as it works.  It is  political for others because they will go for wind, as ineffective as it is, over coal, oil, natural gas or nuclear.  Who is more agenda driven then?

I also think it is funny when two pressure groups come into conflict, the wind fanatics and the animal fanatics.  It is interesting who caves in for political expediency.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Feb 23, 2012)

billcihak said:


> I also think it is funny when two pressure groups come into conflict, the wind fanatics and the animal fanatics. It is interesting who caves in for political expediency.



And this is somehow not a political commentary?  o_0?


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## ChrisT (Jul 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> In Switzerland the powerlines are all buried along with the telephone lines. I was watching the tour of Switzerland last year (cycling) and there was something odd but I couldn't put my finger on it until the commentator, talking about the helicopter camera shots mentioned about all the lines being underground. It makes such a pleasant difference. I was in Switzerland over 30 years ago and can't remember whether or not we saw any powerlines then.
> 
> The opposition against and the promotion of powerlines isn't drawn along party lines here but whether you live near them, benefit from them or hate them etc.



Yes, it is really an advantage to have them buried in the ground, and much safer too. But I think it is also a question of mentality. Europeans (and especially the Swiss) have a different conception of safety and the like. Just take the watch industry so important for the country. All these Rolex, IWC and Panerai watches we can get everywhere in the world...they are admired for a good reason. Technology and safety have to go hand in hand. And we can learn from that too.


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