# What do you carry?



## Black Bear (Feb 19, 2004)

On your dresser-top, or in a top drawer, you keep a stash of stuff which you load into your pockets every day. What's in it? Why? Chances are since you're self-defense savvy/emergency-preparedness folks, you probably have some stuff that reflects these values. 

WALLET: ID and assets for any financial eventuality. 

KEYCHAIN: Housekey is a Masterlock which cannot be copied except I suppose through keycasting. Red "photon"-style LED ("red" cones in the eye have the shortest refractory period, so this interferes the least with night vision) and Swisstech Utilikey which I mainly use as a screwdriver or politically-correct sawblade. Here we have a keytag service of the War Amps where you register with them and get a numbered keytag with no identifying information on it. If you lose your keys, people can drop them in any mailbox, it'll go to their office, and they'll deliver it to you free of charge. I don't know if that exists in your area, but it's a great safety item. 

KNIFE: either a Cold Steel Voyager if I'm wearing gloves that day, or a Spyderco Delica if I'm not. The Delica hole is not glove-friendly. The knife is legal, light, and flat, and can deploy in about a second even under high stress. They're well constructed. Of course, they're no longer the cutting edge in tactical knives but I don't need more than this. I'm NOT going to assemble an arsenal of thousands of dollars worth of folders. 

PELICAN LIGHT: tiny, strong, waterproof, a surprisingly bright LED which is gentle on batteries. Tailcap push switch, clips to clothing. I was putting off buying a new flashlight while everyone was running out buying Surefire Centurions and the like. I won't blind anyone with this, but chances are, you suckers lugging those big things in your pockets won't ever have an opportunity to either. And guess what, I could have bought 12 for what you paid for yours. I spent the savings on a terrific high-loft down duvet. HA. 

CELL PHONE: of course. 

SUGARLESS GUM: of course. 

BURT'S BEES LIP BALM: I live in a very dry area. 

Oh, and all my bags (shoulder bags, backpacks) have things like band-aids and pens in them. Now as I reflect on this, I should add a tube of moisturizer. 

That's all. What I don't carry: a gun, fixed blade, pocket stick of any kind (kubotan, koppo, etc.), pepper spray. Gimmick weapons, ninja weapons, dye sprays, pointy keychains, knuckles, extendable batons, etc. I would carry OC if I was afraid of crime. But I'm not. My lifestyle is so unbelievably safe. I don't go to clubs or bars, except with a group of friends to celebrate. I can't remember the last time I even walked downtown at night. Only one or two of my friends, family, or colleagues has ever been a victim of a violent crime in the past ten years that I know of, and that was domestic. None has told me of a serious stranger assault in that span of time. The knife is handy for cutting fruit and packages, etc. It will be handy in the event of anything like an aggravated assault or abduction, and it doesn't weigh a thing.


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## markulous (Feb 19, 2004)

Well in my car I have all of my equipment(except my guns) since it is always accessible(sp?).  In my car I have:

2 homemade escrima sticks: if someone had a blade of somesort this is probably what I would grab.

A golf club with the club of it broken off: hollowed out so its very light and fast, yet strong enough to do some damage.

A baseball bat: not the best weapon but doesn't hurt to have.

swiss army knife: for non combat emergencies and minor repairs.

That's pretty much it.


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## Black Bear (Feb 19, 2004)

Ah, I forgot. I was meaning to post what I keep in my car. Large first aid kit. Roadside emergency kit (flares, hazard sign, alligator clips, etc.). Windshield fluid. Gas-line antifreeze. 3' snow brush, which can be used to clock a guy if I really, really had to. Most likely I'd chamber it "resting" over my shoulder on the strong side, with my weak side hand forward in a placating, calming palm-forward position. First strike is a full-body-torque angle-1 forehand strike to the THIGH, which will forestall any attack, and the brush's cocked for the backhand horizontal strike at any level. Very much like What Kelly McCann teaches. 

What is not in my car: A gun. A sword. A big stick. Weapons in general.


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## IMAA (Feb 19, 2004)

On a daily basis, I normally carry my wallet, ball cap, cqc benchmade tactical folder knife. 

 In my vehicle is my training bag I always keep it in the vehicle, it has many rattan sticks of different lenghts, 2 or 3 machettes, a couple of pair of nunchaku, training knives of all kinds and sizes, a small wooden baseball bat and one plastic woofle ball bat, as well as an Indonesian Surong. Hard telling what else is in that bag...hahaha

I think my duty belt for my job is in my vehicle right now which has OC gas, ASP baton, handcuffs, a small maglight flashlite, a few maganzine holsters.  I take my Gun off regaurdless. 

I think thats it.. I do also have a small knife in the visor and a larger mag light in the door console.  too many things in my vehicle...lol


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## Zepp (Feb 19, 2004)

On my person, typically, my wallet, a small Victornox Swiss army knife, a tube of chapstick or blistex, pocket-size Kleenex packet and my house keys which have a small Maglite on them.  Depending where I'm going, I'll add to that my car keys, cell phone (it's rarely turned on anyways), and a small Kershaw folding knife.

I'm a college student who lives close to campus. Since I can go for several days without driving anywhere, I can also go for several days without touching my car keys or cell phone.  Since I'm not too worried about being attacked on campus (especially during the day), the folding knife doesn't usually go with me to classes.  I keep my Leatherman in my backpack (mostly so I don't lose it) along with small plastic flashlight (it has its uses).  Gum and various kinds of candy are included at random.

My car has a first aid kit (reach I really should get around to updating), an ermergency roadside repair kit, and a box of those nifty reflective triangles.  At home, there's a pair of rattan escrima sticks under my bed and a medium-size flashlight nearby.


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## 7starmantis (Feb 19, 2004)

Being an ex-paramedic I have a level 3 trauma kit in my car, and my training bag which holds my double daggers, flute (practice flute, which is a foot long dowle with a steel rod drilled down the middle capped at one end, just in case  ), and just some extra training clothes. I don't carry anything on my person except cell phone and wallett and keys.

7sm


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## Gary Crawford (Feb 19, 2004)

Cell phone,keys,pair of escrima's,manual tactical folder knife,auto folder knife.


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## Cruentus (Feb 19, 2004)

OK...I'll play.

Kershaw Ken Onion Chive always.

A Balisong or other folders in addition if I am in a dangerous place.

A cigar tube for my cigar that doubles as a kubaton for social gatherings.

lighter if I plan to smokey smokey. (I'm smokin' a fat cuban right now in my office afterhours!   )

Metal Pens if I am at court or an airport.

Wallet/business card holder. (w/ID and bank cards)

Keys

Cellphone/camera

Palm Pilot

Hand granade.

PAUL

btw...o.k....kidding about the hand granade!  :ultracool


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## KenpoTex (Feb 20, 2004)

Sit back this could take a while...j/k.

On my person:
-Camillus C.U.D.A. for opening things (no I'm not talking about people, honest)
-crappy generic knife for those things you're not supposed to use a knife for (i.e. prying, turning screws etc.)
-Wallet
-Cell phone
-lip balm
-nail clippers
-Zippo lighter 

In my truck:
-PR-24 baton
-Mag-Light flashlight
-a couple of extra knives
-all the junk in the toolbox (gas can, jumper cables, etc.)

And of course when I'm working I also carry O.C. spray, hand-cuffs, and a .45


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## Shinzu (Feb 20, 2004)

wallet, keys, cell phone, small change, mace. :jedi1:


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## OULobo (Feb 20, 2004)

On my person (practically always):
wallet (ID, CCs, membership cards, cash), belt, stainless steel or leather bracer style watch (depends on the image I'm looking for today), crucifix (best friend and best asset), chapstick, pen, paper for notes, knife/knives (rotating supply of kershaws, benchmades, spydercos, ect.), keyring (various keys, photon microlight, carbiner, nail clippers, car lock/starter remote). NO CELL PHONE (fight the power). I think I may start carrying a lighter just incase. 

In the car:
little league bat, army supplus machete, loose change, shades, CDs, pens, paper, towel, extra jacket, large first aid kit, documentation (registration, resumes, maps), water jug (1gal.), car emergency/maintanance supplies (fix-a-flat, jack, flares, heat candles, lighter, 2 energy bars) snow/ice scraper/brush, a flannel blanket for warmth, a quilt for picnics. I still need to get a good mag-light specifically for the car. 

I think that covers it.


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## Black Bear (Feb 20, 2004)

Oh, I forgot my watch. It's by the UK company, Animal. Small, titanium watch designed for surfers, good to 200 m (which is better than I can say for myself). Very crisp visual styling, it feels at home with a black tie or a rash guard. It doesn't give you carpal tunnnel. And it's cheap enough to replace tomorrow if I get mugged for it. 

http://www.animal.co.uk/htm/product...ctRangeID=050+Series&sSubCategoryID=Titanium#


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## Rick Wade (Feb 20, 2004)

On Person:
Watch

Keys

Wallet

Phone

Car:
Escrima Sticks

practice knife:  not sharp but the steel blade even though not sharp is still very useful.

One Black Belt used for restraining personnel


Thanks

Rick


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## dsp921 (Feb 20, 2004)

Pretty basic stuff
Keys
Wallet
Watch
Cell Phone
Cold Steel Recon 1


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## tkdguy1982 (Feb 20, 2004)

I don't carry anything except my wallet, cell phone, keys & me, myself & i.


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## RHD (Feb 22, 2004)

As much often as I can I'm accompanied by my German Shepard-Rottweiller mix.  We never have many problems...
Mike


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## Black Bear (Feb 22, 2004)

Big dogs are cool, but I imagine you don't take it to the movies, to work, to night classes... Everyday carry here.


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## 2fisted (Feb 23, 2004)

Ok I'm not as cool as y'all.  

Person:

Wallet 
Keys

Car:

CDs
Tools
sometimes musical gear


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## mandirigma (Feb 24, 2004)

Black Bear said:
			
		

> I would carry OC if I was afraid of crime. But I'm not. My lifestyle is so unbelievably safe...Only one or two of my friends, family, or colleagues has ever been a victim of a violent crime in the past ten years that I know of, and that was domestic. None has told me of a serious stranger assault in that span of time...QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Ok, I'll be that guy.  That Johnny-nit-picky guy.
> ...


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## someguy (Feb 25, 2004)

"Safety is a myth. There are only degrees of risk. There is no 'safe.'"
THis reminds me of the whole there is no good and evil only shades of grey.  I find both of these untrue.  I need no knife or gun.  I feel safe.  maybe I am diluding myself but I have lived about 19 years.  I'm still alive.  Actually I am pretty much unharmed over all.  I never have felt my life was at risk.  So do you wish to tell me that even though I have never been muggeed that I was unsafe allways?  If I felt I was allways unsafe I would be completely paranoid.  Some places may be unsafe but others are.  It all depends on how you live and who you are if your safe in a place or not.  I can not prove I am wrong but I don't think you can prove you are truely right on that one.
OK now I have typed to much and all so have a good and safe day to all.
 :asian:
btw 
A wallet keys cell phone and occasionally some other random thnigs


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## Black Bear (Feb 25, 2004)

Mandirigma, I don't think you realize just how comfortable my duvet is. 

On one level, I see your point. You are correct in saying that safety is never absolute. On the other, I am thinking that you might have misunderstood me. I see what I said that was susceptible to misinterpretation. I'm not saying that I think I'm invulnerable, or could never be a target of crime. I'm saying that every decision involves a tradeoff. I do not feel so unsafe or fearful that, like some sd'ers, I feel the need to go to great lengths to take my safety into my own hands. 

If I want to perceive myself, my neighbourhood, etc. as being SAFE or UNSAFE, I can always come up with evidence one way or another. On the one hand, my city has the highest per capita number of high-risk federal parolees in the country (we're a small city and have a big max on the edge of town). On the other hand, our police service is one of the better ones in the country, and for that matter, in the world. On the one hand, I'm an upper-middle-class professional who doesn't drink or club, but on the other hand, my duplex (which is actually very nice) is in a low-rent neighbourhood with a checkered reputation. You get the idea. A person who wants to justify their decision to spend years in training in martial arts and to carry a lot of gear can find reasons to think and feel a certain way. And at the same time there are reasons on the other side. If I didn't want to be into MA/SD at all (as most folks do), and not carry anything emergency-related, I could rationalize this too. In the end, we do what we want. 

Anyway, as I was saying, every choice involves a tradeoff. What does it cost me to wear OC, or a collapsible baton? Well, I have to acquire it. A good one, say from Fox Labs, isn't going to cost a fortune. Monadnock is a good baton, and I know where to get one for a good price. My friend/training partner works at a gun store, he'll cut me a deal. There are other costs. Awkwardness. I generally wear functional stuff like MEC and Royal Robbins when I can, but sometimes suits. If I'm going to carry these things in a functional way where I can deploy them at a second's notice, it'll probably be on my beltline or something (hip pocket clips are dedicated to my cell and tac folder). Heck, I wear Dri-skin climbing tights with an elastic waistband sometimes, and I really scratch my head to figure out where to put my tiny Pelican! Kelly McCann talks about wearing the baton in a "groinline carry" (tucked anterior to the hip joint). But I don't feel like having that thing stick into my nuts 12 hours a day, and I don't think the store will like me trying it out for comfort, so I never bothered. There's the quasi-legal issues because of the laws of my jurisdiction. We're not supposed to carry weapons on our person, and anyone who wears OC has to say it's for "dogs". I can talk my way out with a cop, but it's just another annoyance, another consideration. 

What else does it cost me? I'm a swingin' single dude, and a psychologist. My whole approach to the world depends on the fact that I put people at ease very quickly when I meet them. I can't look all ninja-geared up the way, say, an electrician can. So that's another reason I choose not to have an arsenal on me. 

Now if I believed that at any time, I could get assaulted, mugged, raped, etc. do you think that fear would override these other considerations and "inconveniences"? You bet it would. If I continued to feel that way for a period of time, I'm pretty sure I would carry more stuff, maybe even pack heat illegally. But the thing is, that fear isn't there. I get up in the morning, drive to work, work, drive out to run a couple errands, drive home, maybe go out to a coffee shop on the west end with friends, maybe train, go home. I have no enemies. The following crimes are ALMOST unheard of in my town: home invasions (unless the vic is involved with gang activity), carjackings, robberies of open businesses with lots of customers, etc. In fact, there was a series of three home invasions a year or two ago, in a small nearby town--it was in our papers for a week. In our city there are about twenty murders a year. You read through the descriptions of each, and it's mostly related to a certain lifestyle (drugs mainly) or within the family. 

I have taken a middle path. I do carry stuff, but only what's light, convenient, and multipurpose. The knife is not only a tool but a reminder to myself of my values of preparedness, initiative, and taking charge of my own life. Not against feared strangers, but toward "eventualities", be they a nice, ripe piece of fruit, the tricky-to-manage behaviour of a violent nutjob, or a particularly tough piece of packing tape. 

I can see how some people will decide the other way. Protecting yourself against crime on the one hand involves 1) consideration of a very infrequent event, and on the other hand, 2) extremely high stakes (being severely assaulted, and failing to manage it well, is VERY costly). It's tough to argue that one choice is all that much more rational than another--that's why we call it personal choice. We can't "argue" our decision. We can only explain it. My instructor carries a fixed blade and a monadnock anytime he's not on the mat. I DON'T think he's nuts. I don't think YOU'RE nuts. But it doesn't make sense TO ME. I'd rather have the duvet. When I'm assaulted, I'll deal with the situation as it is, in that moment.


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## Black Bear (Feb 25, 2004)

someguy, I think he's just saying that there is no such thing as ABSOLUTE safety, in the sense that no one is immune to violence. It's a matter of degree and folks shouldn't assume that it could never happen to them. That's all.


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## RHD (Feb 25, 2004)

Black Bear said:
			
		

> Big dogs are cool, but I imagine you don't take it to the movies, to work, to night classes... Everyday carry here.



You're right, he doesn't go everywhere with me.  But he often rides with me to places like the grocery store, mudane errands, etc, especially if those things have to be done at night.
I don't carry much ever in the way of practical weaponry.  Mostly, I just carry myself in a confident manner using body language to say "not a good target".  I live in an area that borders on some higher crime parts of town, but never have problems...at least none in the two years we've been living here.  I believe in the defensive effects of awareness and presence.
Mike


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## mandirigma (Feb 26, 2004)

Unfortunately, Black Bear, this is where our paths part and we disagree vehemently:  I have no compunction whatsoever about putting all manner of weaponry down my pants in public.



			
				Black Bear said:
			
		

> ...When I'm assaulted, I'll deal with the situation as it is, in that moment.



I think everything you mentioned is well put with regard to deciding what items to carry.

As you indicate above, we'll "deal" with it.  I believe this is important, because this speaks to owning our own choices.  In turn, this is important because when we own our choices and believe them to be reasonable, then we just might be on the brink of happiness.  And being happy is key.  Why spend time learning any of this SD crap just to defend an unhappy existence?

A couple of things:

a)  I too am constrained by my professional circumstances in the way I must dress.  As such, I am interested in things I can carry and still "stay under the radar."  This stealth existence is crucial.  We must be non-threatening.  We have lives to lead.  Our ninjabilities must be a secret! 

b)  I believe we're on identical pages with regard to the "safety" semantics.  I have a tendency to complicate matters with seemingly unexplained platitudes. (When it comes right down to it, my life is almost intolerably "safe," too.)  SD logic and clear mental discipline should foster certain attitudes, IMHO.  (Nearly) everyone always thinks they are 'safe' before they get attacked.  Clearly, we must leave our feelings and intuitions out of the picture when objectively discussing such matters.  Similarly, as a psychologist you must define only observable behaviors when charting on patients, right?

c)  My personal life philosophy is also centered around "working it out," "talking people down," etc.  I have a wishy-washy, altruistic river of benevolence that simply gushes forth.  I try to leave my counseling skills at the behavioral hospital, however, when I leave work.  This was not always easy to do!  In recent years I have been aided by some thoughts: 

1) "Think of the cruelty beyond our comprehension ... There is no compromise possible with such people, no meeting of minds, no point of understanding with such terror. Just a choice: defeat it or be defeated by it."
-Tony Blair, 2 Oct., 2001

2) "Mercy...where it was backed with the power to save or kill."  -Nitobe

These examples helped define the relationship between my world of helping, saving and giving that I admire and the world where only my violent martial skill solves problems.  If anything, my studies of benevolence should aid me in understanding when to abandon it for violent action.



d)  In the end (or I should say, "my current thinking is..."), what gets carried with me is a matter of preparation not paranoia.  When I consider new SD thoughts/gadgets, etc., they must pass the "seatbelt test."  Like a seatbelt, they must be easy to use, remember, implement, such that they in no way detract from my overall goal:  To lead a fun, rewarding life.  Also like a seatbelt, they must be capable of benefitting me should their services be called upon.

There are no perfect solutions, only reasonable compromises.


Just my 16 cents.

Cool thread.

 :asian:


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## Black Bear (Feb 27, 2004)

Mandirigma, cool thread indeed. I think our thinking is very close, but the way that we work it out in practice is slightly different. 

So you're a head shrinker too? To clarify, I'm an educational psychologist, so we don't deal with "patients" per se. Er, "clients" we call them. 

Seatbelt test is good. Good analogy. I agree that collapsible baton, OC, and tac folder are reasonable things for folks to carry if they can make it work for their lifestyles. In fact, I somewhat understand the thinking of Americans, who like to carry guns. Not agree, but kind of understand. Americans on the whole value self-reliance and independence to a slightly greater degree. 

Perhaps I have less faith than you in ability of "clear self-defense logic" to bring us to solid conclusions on how to govern ourselves in an issue such as "what to carry", particularly to the exclusion of feelings, etc. You sound like someone with a psych background, so think back to social cognition and the way in which people selectively process information on the basis of beliefs or feelings they hold a priori. 

Mainly I think it's because of something I mentioned earlier--that it is based on the forecasting of serious assaults: events which are 1) EXTREMELY RARE and 2) EXTREMELY HIGH STAKES. On the one hand a person could reasonably think "given the high stakes, and what it would cost me to lose a streetfight, I'm not going to miss ANYTHING I can do to give myself the best possible odds. I will spare no expense because what is at stake is too great." And he'll take along everything possible. And his reasoning makes perfect sense. On the other, someone could say, "The chances of anything at all happening on any given day are so preposterously low, since I lead a safe lifestyle, am always around good people, and have good awareness and defusion skills, why should I inconvenience myself with a folder, what are the odds that the folder will even make a big difference in the outcome, since it could be such a quick blitz it'll be over before I realize it happened, etc." And there is just as much logic in his thinking. And yet when these people look at one another, one will characterize the other as blissfully ignorant, naive, pollyannaish. The other will think to himself, "this guy must have low serotonin because he tends to think catastrophically".  And really, all it is is that it's not possible to "logically" say that one is more correct than the other. 

Too late to be thinking of being assaulted. Back to my duvet. Unlike my folder and Pelican, I use it as intended EVERY DAY.


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## someguy (Feb 27, 2004)

Hmm a peacefull debate good.*gives every body a coockie for being polite*
"Mercy...where it was backed with the power to save or kill." -Nitobe
I like that quote.
Yes random and somewhat off topic but oh well.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 28, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> Yes random and somewhat off topic but oh well.



Ok.  Ahem.

I carry:

My Keys, on a metal Kubotan.
A CRKT M-16-14M folder
My Wallet with my Id
My Cellphone.

If I have my coat, I also keep essentials like Gum, Painkillers, a pen and scrap paper in my pockets. 

I have a First Aid Kit, spare eyeglasses, a roadside emergency kit, and a AOL Survival Tin (as seen in the Martialist) in my car.

I have a SMALL First Aid Kit, a SMALL toolkit and an AOL Survival Tin in the "toolbox" on my motorcycle.


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## Thanatos (Feb 28, 2004)

I carry at any given time:
My wallet, which is usually on a foot long chain.
A zippo
My Cell Phone
Keys
And a Kershaw assisted opener.  Blades about 4 inches long.


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## Black Bear (Feb 28, 2004)

Those springy Kershaws are neat, but they weird me out.


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## Thanatos (Feb 28, 2004)

Yeah, a friend of mine doesn't like them much, but its a good blade, and I got it from a friend who worked in a knife shop, so it was like 40 percent off with his store discount.  It has served me well for the two years I have had it.


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## Black Bear (Feb 28, 2004)

Well yes, a friend of mine owns one--a very small one--and I have to say it's a good knife.


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## mandirigma (Feb 29, 2004)

Since I couldn't find the "why" of carrying thread:
    I should add 'convenient' as a requirement within the seatbelt analogy.  If it's not convenient, then it clearly interferes with my ability to lead a happy life.  If I spent 22.45 minutes each day futzing with soft body armor, while logical from a SD standpoint, it clearly robs me of 22.45 min. I could spend chasing my wife around the house.  To me that's a no-brainer (she's hot).

    Let's consider ALL safety/risk scenarios.  Without diving into clear numbers on the statistical risk of attacks, it's important to consider SD from the perspective of overall safety.  We should not consider SD unlikely, particularly if compared against other pitfalls we might encounter.  If I include SD within my 'safety' mindset, being prepared is much more pragmatic than paranoia.  For example, there are places where one is much more likely to be attacked in their car than at home.  Obviously it makes sense to find some "seatbelt tested items" and prepare somewhat for car travel.  That does not mean we stop locking our doors at home, however!  From this perspective, think about all the safety items we indulge that are low (or much lower) risk compared to being attacked.  People (myself included) have all manner of insurances against events that are potentially less likely than being attacked (e.g.- flood, fire, car/auto, life insurance, prenuptial agreement).  
    Of course the level of risk for all these eventualities is unknowable.  Nearly all of these are unlikely, including SD.  I have spent lots of time being confused about this very issue (what to carry) over the years!  I put some stock in the silly little "seatbelt analogy" because without it I'd be walking the streets with a howitzer, 42 pitbulls and contingent of impersonal suits all named "Bubba."  That, to me, is why it is critical to take pains to ensure my preparations for unlikely events do not detract from my overall goal:  chasing the wife on full throttle.

Trying to hone in on this dynamic process while accounting for all the variables is what makes this topic so confusing, and so fun!

The "what" of CARRYING:
Whatever is convenient and effective.  This narrows us down pretty fast to pistols, OC, blades, batons.  Not much else describes our parameters.  Personally, I'm holding out for a lightsaber.

As it happens, what we do NOT carry becomes more clearly defined.  A non-carry tool does not have to be convenient to carry, but must retain (hopefully increase) its efficacy.  Then we get into longarms for SD.  (I.e.- pistols are really not effective, but they _are _ convenient.  Longarms are more effective, but not convenient.)

Finally...


			
				Black Bear said:
			
		

> ...The knife is not only a tool but a reminder to myself of my values of preparedness, initiative, and taking charge of my own life...



Very, very excellent point!  From that perspective (from which I wholeheartedly believe I derive significant benefits), you can see how we DO use the crap we lug around ON A DAILY BASIS!  Much like a duvet, really...

 :asian:


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## James Kovacich (Mar 9, 2004)

I'm really glad to see that I'm not the only one that carries a knife. I didn't used to carry one except a leatherman until someone gave me one at Christmas.

Realistically, for me, using a slicing motion rather than a stabbing motion, a knife is about as practical as I can get. Although I do have an Escrima stick under my Silverados rear seat (out of reach and out of site).

I think the biggest issue (for me) is the legality of what we carry. If its not legal, then its not worth it. So my stick is legal ( I hope) and my knife is small. Hopefully, I don't need them. :asian:


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## Black Bear (Mar 9, 2004)

Stabbers and slashers all have their arguments. When it comes down to it the stabbers convinced me that in its own way, stabbing will do more damage, bleed more, etc. but I was trained as a slasher and you'll generally hit the superficial blood vessels and muscles what you're going for. And slashing usually evokes a withdrawing reflex, so that I have forward momentum against the guy. 

Stabbers' reasoning is that stabbing is like slashing a guy INSIDE.


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## OULobo (Mar 10, 2004)

I believe from a medical standpoint, stabbing is much worse. The possibilities of infection, inaccessability, compressed wounds, major organ trauma and internal bleeding are aspects that aren't easily treated, but an open outside cut is fairly easily treated. The worst parts of a slash are the phychological effects and the chance of severing arteries/veins and tendons. I guess eitherway it's nasty, but I'd take a slash (anywhere but the neck) over a stabb anyday.


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## Black Bear (Mar 10, 2004)

But just because it's worse for you, it doesn't follow that that's the technique of choice to stop an attack.


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## James Kovacich (Mar 10, 2004)

My reasoning for slashing instead of stabbing is stabbing is to lethal. All that is needed is subdueing or escaping, NOT KILLING. 

I never have, nor do I plan to ever use lethal force. Its against everything I stand for. If I need lethal force, I might as well get a gun permit and carry a gun.
 :asian:


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## mandirigma (Mar 10, 2004)

akja said:
			
		

> ...nor do I plan to ever use lethal force. Its against everything I stand for. ...



Just a thought:
I don't believe we are talking about killing (I hope).  We are talking about stopping an attack.  Unless we're phenomenally  skilled, we can't choose whether or not to use lethal force.  Sometimes, often even, homicide (which we will prove justifiable) is the unfortunate result of trying to subdue or escape an attack.  

Saying lethal force runs against what we stand for, IMHO, is not germane to most martial discussion.  Ultimately, it matters little how we feel or what we believe.  Regrettably, if we are justified in acting at all, lethal force will probably be the only tool capable of aiding our survival.  Saying we don't believe in lethal force is analogous to saying we don't believe in earthquakes.  Lethal force is what it is.  If we don't "believe" in lethal force and its utility, then we shouldn't say we believe in trying to survive in the first place.

A very ugly reality for sure, but we can't have our cake and eat it too.  The bad guy may die.  But he should have considered that before he tried to take me from my life/family.

Be safe.
 :asian:


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## rompida (Mar 10, 2004)

Hmmm......... using lethal force against lethal force.  Seems like a no brainer to me. 
I had the opportunity to train with a lesser known, but great FMA, who taught us some "ice picking" drills.  As a side note, he added, "they are not there to be your friend".   Do you think the bad guy will be worried about hurting you too much?  

Personally I carry a very limited arsenal due to my profession, which is teaching.  In my car, I carry a 14" Mag lite, which makes quite a good baton/stick.  In my coat, I have an arsenal of ninja #2 throwing pencils! :uhyeah:


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## 7starmantis (Mar 10, 2004)

akja said:
			
		

> I never have, nor do I plan to ever use lethal force. Its against everything I stand for. If I need lethal force, I might as well get a gun permit and carry a gun.
> :asian:


I completely understand your point, but I think lethal force is not simply the force used to kill. Lethal force may not kill the subject, but is simply the force used. What I mean is that if being attacked you simply react and use whatever means neccessary for you to survive, you just used lethal force. The attacker dying is not the point, what you did was chose to protect yourself regardless of its outcome, that, I belive, is what lethal force in actuality is. If your attacked and you pull punches or kicks, decide not to use the 8 inch pole lying at your feet, or the knife on the table because you are afriad of killing the attacker, that is not using lethal force, and in my humble and mostly unpopular opinion, completely imbecilic and most irresponsible.

7sm


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## James Kovacich (Mar 11, 2004)

Good points guys. I think that for someone to understand me, they have to understand that I don't like hurting people and when training I say I'm sorry quite a bit (don't mis-read this, its about respect to my partners and and the feeling of going to far) and in BJJ, I don't like to hurt my opponents. That has caused me to tap more than I needed to. But thats me. 

I'ts a learning experience and no-one needs to get hurt. I learned more than most because they (BJJ classmates) chose to focus on the ground but I have the insight to "learn their ground-game," disect it and apply it to "my way."

So I get what I want without popping elbows and such. (off topic) Actually my ground game has gotten much better since leaving BJJ.

I think the definition of lethal force is "up for grabs." In training I prefer not to hurt someone but in the street, yes I will do what it takes but "stabbing" is not really a part of the picture. Slicing the arms and legs is more humane and will stop someone in their tracks. 

Now the life or death situation, know body really knows but I think that the way I train will have an effect on the outcome and that can be good or bad for me. But say soneone was trying to rape or kill my wife or daughter. I think that anything could happen as far as how far soneone goes to ending the confrontation.
 :asian:


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## 7starmantis (Mar 11, 2004)

akja said:
			
		

> yes I will do what it takes but "stabbing" is not really a part of the picture. Slicing the arms and legs is more humane and will stop someone in their tracks.


I see what your saying, I just have one thing I'm confused about...

I think you would be suprised at how many people a slice would not stop. Slicing is oftentimes unnoticed by the victim until after an altercation. I also don't see, from a medical standpoint as a former paramedic, how slicing an arm or leg is more humane than a puncture wound. They are both pretty traumatic to the body. Slicing an artery if not lethal, could result in the loss of a limb, how is that humane?

7sm


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## James Kovacich (Mar 11, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I see what your saying, I just have one thing I'm confused about...
> 
> I think you would be suprised at how many people a slice would not stop. Slicing is oftentimes unnoticed by the victim until after an altercation. I also don't see, from a medical standpoint as a former paramedic, how slicing an arm or leg is more humane than a puncture wound. They are both pretty traumatic to the body. Slicing an artery if not lethal, could result in the loss of a limb, how is that humane?
> 
> 7sm



You got me there! I just seem to relate stabbing with death. Maybe I'm wrong. :asian:


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