# most useless



## tshadowchaser (Jul 24, 2008)

Just because I am in one of those moods:

What is (to YOU) the most useless kick you have been taught, have seen, or know will be taught to you. WHY


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## terryl965 (Jul 24, 2008)

Simple flying jumping sidekick, like your opponet is just going to stand there while you come running at him and jump with that foot going right at him, please the movies are great but this kick is worthless and yet it get tought by everyone except me but my students learn it from vido games and movies.


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## MA-Caver (Jul 24, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Simple flying jumping sidekick, like your opponent is just going to stand there while you come running at him and jump with that foot going right at him, please the movies are great but this kick is worthless and yet it get taught by everyone except me but my students learn it from video games and movies.


Agreed, the only way that kick could work is that if you're on a first strike mood and your opponent has got their back turned to you and is wearing IPODS blaring out music.


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## 14 Kempo (Jul 24, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Simple flying jumping sidekick, like your opponet is just going to stand there while you come running at him and jump with that foot going right at him, please the movies are great but this kick is worthless and yet it get tought by everyone except me but my students learn it from vido games and movies.


 
I also agree, this kick was developed during times when it may have been useful, to pick people off of horseback (at least that's how I heard it). I don't run across too many of those hear in Southern California, but even if I did, I can't jump that high anymore.


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## shesulsa (Jul 24, 2008)

Useless in a real fight situation, I'm assuming.  This kick wasn't taught to me but to a couple other, more talented students - an upside-down jumping spin kick.

I think pushing your ability to control your body in time and space and make it do extraordinary things has value ... but I just can't see using this IRL ... unless you're fighting Spiderman or your opponent is hanging from a fire escape ladder or chandelier or something.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 24, 2008)

aaahhh  come on now  you mean to tell me you folks dont jump over pool tables and kick that guy who made a dirty face at you  
-------------------------------------------------------

If I am doing anything that resembles a kick and I am upside down it is surly a mistake because i will just be trying to figure what just happened and where I am


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## MA-Caver (Jul 24, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> aaahhh  come on now  you mean to tell me you folks dont jump over pool tables and kick that guy who made a dirty face at you


No, that's what pool cues are for... they got a longer reach.


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## IcemanSK (Jul 24, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> aaahhh come on now you mean to tell me you folks dont jump over pool tables and kick that guy who made a dirty face at you
> -------------------------------------------------------
> 
> If I am doing anything that resembles a kick and I am upside down it is surly a mistake because i will just be trying to figure what just happened and where I am


 
I don't live too far from Hollywood, but I've never seen it happen. :ultracool

While I don't see the martial value in a jump side kick, I do see some agility value in it. It's a difficult kick to do well. Practicing it can lead to better all around agility.

I do think it's truly nuts that there is one for each leg in the WTF 9th Dan form, Ilyeo. The older you get, the more you should have to do this kick.:barf:


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## Andrew Green (Jul 24, 2008)

14 Kempo said:


> I also agree, this kick was developed during times when it may have been useful, to pick people off of horseback (at least that's how I heard it). I don't run across too many of those hear in Southern California, but even if I did, I can't jump that high anymore.




The big problem with the horseback theory.... horse are tall, you'd have to be clearing 6 feet and kicking at 8 feet.  Those Okinawans / Koreans aren't the tallest people on the planet either.  I just can't see someone kicking a person off a horse.

Nor can I see a disarmed public composed of farmers and fishermans fighting off heavily armed professional warriors using improvised weapons, the kicking off a horse seems to have come out of that story line.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 24, 2008)

got to admit I had a friend try it over a pool table while drunk. He made it he even made it onto the next close table where he messed up a Money game. I will not repet what happened to him after he landed. 

as for one for each foot in a 9th dan form. PLease by the time someone reaches 9th dan they should be happy to get off the ground.  Just MHO


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## Andrew Green (Jul 24, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> as for one for each foot in a 9th dan form. PLease by the time someone reaches 9th dan they should be happy to get off the ground.  Just MHO



Can't you make 9th dan by the time you are 24 in some systems nowadays?


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 24, 2008)

I always thought that the combination jump front (or roundhouse) into a roundhouse while in the air was one of the most useless kicks i was ever taught. In a tournament it's nice to know but anywhere else it just seemed way to dangerous to me


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## IcemanSK (Jul 24, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> as for one for each foot in a 9th dan form. PLease by the time someone reaches 9th dan they should be happy to get off the ground. Just MHO


 

My point exactly! Although I saw an amazing 71 year old 9th Dan do this form very well over the weekend. He's an exception, I know.


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## terryl965 (Jul 24, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> I don't live too far from Hollywood, but I've never seen it happen. :ultracool
> 
> While I don't see the martial value in a jump side kick, I do see some agility value in it. It's a difficult kick to do well. Practicing it can lead to better all around agility.
> 
> I do think it's truly nuts that there is one for each leg in the WTF 9th Dan form, Ilyeo. The older you get, the more you should have to do this kick.:barf:


 

I agree


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## terryl965 (Jul 24, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> Can't you make 9th dan by the time you are 24 in some systems nowadays?


 
I believe that system is called take your money and run


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## mango.man (Jul 24, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> What is (to YOU) the most useless kick you have been taught, have seen, or know will be taught to you. WHY


 
Oh see, now this is an easy one.  It would be the "snake kick".

Now since most people have never heard of such a thing when I have spoken of this before, please allow me to descibe a "snake kick" as it was taught to my daughter many years ago.  Please feel free to follow along at home.

From a fighting position, raise your front leg so that your thigh is horizontal to the ground and your calf is vertical (IE, not chambere for a kick).

Now, from your knee down, swing your calf left to right like a pendulum.

Assuming you are working with your right leg here, now when you foot is as far left as you can take it, begin a kick towards an opponant that is in front of you, as if you are going to kick the right side of their chest.  Then as you are kicking you will make sort of a backwards S motion and bringing your leg back to your right, their left while continuing to lift higher then back to your left, ultimately kicking your opponent in the left side of their head.

How's that for not only useless, but dangerous as well unless you don't really care much about doing serious damage to your knees.

Shortly before we left our 1st dojang, where my daughter was taught this kick, we were at a compeititon.  I was coaching her, because quite frankly by this point I had a much better grasp of Olympic style sparring than did any of her instructors from this school.  They all kinda chuckled at me when I sat down in the coaches chair, but they all stood around the ring to watch her fight.  She destroyed her opponent with a final score of something along the lines of 15-2 or something like that.  When the fight was over, the only thing any of her instuctors had to say was "That wasn't bad, but I noticed she didn't even do 1 snake kick."

Within 2 months we had found a new school.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 24, 2008)

Never tried that kick but just standing (after reading) and walking through it , I am sure I will not try it to many times again.
I can see my kneee just saying, GOODBY, if I try that kick a few more times and with any speed and strength behind it


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## MBuzzy (Jul 24, 2008)

This is more about practicality.....but, Double jump front kick.  If you have two people standing perfectly spaced, why would you attempt a kick like this, with almost no forward momentum, very little power and little control (as always, there are those who can do it very well).  But it seems to me that you could kick one and punch the other at the same time easier than it is to do this kick....and honestly, they may not even feel it.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 24, 2008)

That and the sissiors kick
oh ya I realy want totry that one in a fight


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## Andrew Green (Jul 24, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> That and the sissiors kick
> oh ya I realy want totry that one in a fight



Take it off a Russian 2 on 1, follow into a leg lock.  Not the highest percentage move, but it can definitely work.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 24, 2008)

I'll take your word on that 
 but it would not be my first choice Im sure


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## FearlessFreep (Jul 24, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I agree



Thats actually true for a lot of kicks.  Lotsa kicks that have minimal sparring usage, no real-world usage, but are good to work on for strength, balance, timing, etc...


Back to the point, the Z-Kick or inverted front kick comes to mind first


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 24, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Simple flying jumping sidekick, like your opponet is just going to stand there while you come running at him and jump with that foot going right at him, please the movies are great but this kick is worthless and yet it get tought by everyone except me but my students learn it from vido games and movies.


 
IMO

Just about any aerial kick is useless (and I have been taught a few) unless your target is standing there not moving and has absolutely no intention of doing so.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 24, 2008)

Please explain this kick


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## FearlessFreep (Jul 24, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> Take it off a Russian 2 on 1, follow into a leg lock.  Not the highest percentage move, but it can definitely work.



I could see how that could work...

I've also trained a scissors kick as part of a head-lock counter. (although It wasn't really my favorite of those techniques


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## FearlessFreep (Jul 24, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> Please explain this kick



Which one? (to whom are you replying?)


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 24, 2008)

> Which one? (to whom are you replying?)


 the "Z" kick


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## FearlessFreep (Jul 24, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> IMO
> 
> Just about any aerial kick is useless (and I have been taught a few) unless your target is standing there not moving and has absolutely no intention of doing so.



I don't think that's quite true.

We usually think of kicks as isolated entities.  So if you and I are facing each other in a combat situation, then something like a jump spin outside crescent or something as an initial move is probably not a high-probability of success.  I think such individual techniques are going ot have a higher probability though if thought of as part of a scenario where the opponent has gotten into a situation where they are not ready for such an attack.  That's a bit too abstract to think of anything definite...  

Just as a silly example, I kick my opponent in the knee, he flinches and drops his head and shoulders a bit in reaction to the pain.  Now, I have his attention low and I've dropped his shoulders and head.  For a split instant, that jumping outside crescent becomes a higher probability attack.  That's maybe a goofy example, but I'm just thinking that there are a lot of techniques that are not very useful starting from an even footing that may become more applicable as the dynamics of the encounter change positions, attentions, and reactions


Note:  I don't tend to think of any technique as "will work" or "won't work", I tend to try to think of a) probability and b) risk vs reward.  I want techniques with high probability and high reward/low risk, but sometimes circumstances dictate moving along that continuum


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## FearlessFreep (Jul 24, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> the "Z" kick



I was afraid of that   OK, it's a bit hard to describe.  If I can, I'll video myself doing one.

Basically you bring your leg up to chamber like any front kick (or roundhouse, etc...)

Now pivot your support foot, but when you pivot your foot, you also rotate your hips and shoulders so you are facing away from your opponent.

As you are doing this, your a re still bringing your kicking leg up so your foot is about shoulder high, or higher.

Now kick your foot downward, kicking the shoulder, face, front of chest, etc...

Problem is, you end up facing away from your opponent, and it's a rather lengthy kick, although it is deceiving...


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 24, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> I don't think that's quite true.
> 
> We usually think of kicks as isolated entities. So if you and I are facing each other in a combat situation, then something like a jump spin outside crescent or something as an initial move is probably not a high-probability of success. I think such individual techniques are going ot have a higher probability though if thought of as part of a scenario where the opponent has gotten into a situation where they are not ready for such an attack. That's a bit too abstract to think of anything definite...
> 
> ...


 
Not arguing and this (IMO) is basically a whatever works for you kind of thing but I am not a big fan of aerial kicks, maybe it is the whole Internal CMA rooting thing could be that I am not even a big fan of the boxing approach to a fight that promotes constant back and forth weight shifting because at some point in the middle you will loose your root.

But in the case that you posted; Kick him in the knee first then it is likely he is not going to be moving much after that so a jump kick could work rather well. I however would likely just use a front snap kick and keep the other foot on the ground or a knoee strike depending on how low his head actually was.


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## kaizasosei (Jul 24, 2008)

the most useless kicks are i would say two kicks.

one would be any kick that doesn't connect well. 

the second would be the kick where you bend down only slightly but your leg goes back all the way so your footsole touches the back of your head(or thonk anothers).  the reason this kick is useless for  me is  because im not  flexible enough at the moment.  

but ive been sitting here for minutes vegging out thinking up useless kicks from hackysack moves to tripple kicks and double legged kicks, scisorrs? -  
let's face it, any kick can be useful at some point- unless you cant do it right then it's more like the person is useless not the kick. 

doublekicks need lots of energy and involve jumping so they may be anwanted for some, scisors may mean you need to go to the ground also at some point..im facinated by  the technique where you run up and kick opposite side with own sole to opponents hip and then jump up to vice the  enemy neck  with the other leg between calf and theigh right at the own knee literally riding the person while choking with leg.  tripple kicks may be hard to do in the first place and landing all three an even great feat. there are only around three kinds of tripple kicks i know of and can use. tripple kick three kicks in the air.  
also, the arial and physically challenging aspect of extreme coordination may make such moves undesirable.

i personally however, think that the jumping sidekick has a number of  very realistic applications. 

j


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## FearlessFreep (Jul 24, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> But in the case that you posted; Kick him in the knee first then it is likely he is not going to be moving much after that so a jump kick could work rather well. I however would likely just use a front snap kick and keep the other foot on the ground or a knoee strike depending on how low his head actually was.



Oh, yeah, at that point in the game there's a whole lot you can do.  My only thought/intention was that there are techniques that make no sense when taken as individual techniques that can become more possible depending on the flowing condition.  That was just a made up illustration.

One qualifier to the idea of risk/reward or probability is that not everyone falls  into the same way.  How risky a technique is and how much bang you get out of it depends on how much you practice it, how you practice it, and how comfortable you are with it.  I don't practice aerial kicks in general enough to say it would be something I would feel confident doing if I had to (although I do occasionally use that jump outside crescent when sparring)


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## Miles (Jul 24, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> Thats actually true for a lot of kicks. Lotsa kicks that have minimal sparring usage, no real-world usage, but are good to work on for strength, balance, timing, etc...
> 
> 
> Back to the point, the Z-Kick or inverted front kick comes to mind first


 

I vote for twisting kick and crescent kicks.  Great for training, useless in combat.....


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## zDom (Jul 24, 2008)

Gonna play the Devil's Advocate here for a sec 

I've always thought a flying sidekick does have at least ONE use:

Suppose someone is attacking someone else (or several other people?) and you are rushing to their defense from a short distance. Rather than run up and then skid to a stop, why not just blast them with a flying sidekick?

I can't think of a better technique for this particular situation if their attention is on someone else.

As for historical "kick 'em off a horse" idea, it could just be BS, but I'm wondering if it wasn't an ambush technique in which they waited for the horsemen to ride in an area with a high shoulder so they didn't have to jump as high. (shrug)

Now, on that "snake kick" &#8212; are you talking about a twist kick/inverted roundhouse? Or something completely different? Not sure I'm getting your description.

I find a twist kick takes some learning, but once you get the hang of it (and some flexibility at the hip joint ), it is NOT hard on your knee and can generate a signficant amount of power.



Ok, /end devil's advocate


The kick I personally find not worth training at all is a midsection hook kick. I think it has applications low at the ankle or knee, and high at the head, but I don't think it has much value unless you can really pull it through.


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## FearlessFreep (Jul 24, 2008)

OK, here is a quick demo of a z-kick.

http://r4h-music.com/movies/mymovie2.mov

Bare in mind I just started the recorder and didn't set this up as a demo, just trying to illustrate something to you guys here.  

This is not a kick I know well or do well or practice much or have ever tried in sparring or anything, so you can extrapolate from my basic mechanics and motions what's supposed to be happening, but don't take it seriously as a good example of the kick.

I know some people who can do it well (fast and powerful) and have used it effectively in sparring so I know it can be effective in context, but it seems to me to be a very 'gimmicky' kick with little practical use.


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## KickFest (Jul 24, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> OK, here is a quick demo of a z-kick


 
That looks like a variant of turning (roundhouse) kick that I've seen. As you twist your body round with your foot in the air you would then pull it down into the opponent's leg. The way I see it there, it looks like you might damage your knee if that actually landed and your body kept turning :uhohh: (not commenting on your technique, just what I can make of the kick).

I agree that I can't see any obvious application of it. On that basis Z-kick and twisting kick are the ones I would single out.


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## YoungMan (Jul 24, 2008)

Personal most useless kick? Alternating roundhouse kick used extensively in WTF Olympic sparring.

Other than that, to me the most useless kicks are the ones you never bothered to learn and apply. Every kick has uses-you just have to understand when and where to use them.


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## Marginal (Jul 24, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> The big problem with the horseback theory.... horse are tall, you'd have to be clearing 6 feet and kicking at 8 feet.  Those Okinawans / Koreans aren't the tallest people on the planet either.  I just can't see someone kicking a person off a horse.
> 
> Nor can I see a disarmed public composed of farmers and fishermans fighting off heavily armed professional warriors using improvised weapons, the kicking off a horse seems to have come out of that story line.


On top of that...

 Why are the Koreans are supposed to be ignorant of the spear? They had ties with China, the Chinese used spears etc. Why would you waste time developing jump kicks when a spear does the job far more efficiently?

That aside, I'd say rising kick's the most useless. Nice as a warmup, but as far as a defensive kick goes, it's kinda slow and the risk vs reward is terrible.


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## shesulsa (Jul 24, 2008)

Well ... I can say I've seen a man jump so high, his hips were higher than 6 feet in the air ... and he once told me he could jump nowhere near as high as a grandmaster he knew. So ... yeahj ... but that's a topic for another thread.

I still think most kicks above the waist are suspect as to their efficacy in th3 r34l str33t ... but I think they have use in agility training.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 25, 2008)

Special techniques, of any sort in any art, are only as useful as the combination of skill in execution, timing, and surprise.  A special technique well practiced and sparingly used at the right time is highly useful.  Used regularly or multiple times, your opponent figures it out and easily counters or at least defends.  Fact is that solid basics win fights.  The occasional flashy technique worked in here and there is highly effective.  But don't expect to win fights if you try to look like the Power Rangers _all_ the time.

Daniel


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 25, 2008)

How about the split kick
you know the one where you jump between two opponents and kick both at the same time.
for my this might have worked at 20 but not at my age now


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## rmclain (Jul 25, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Simple flying jumping sidekick, like your opponet is just going to stand there while you come running at him and jump with that foot going right at him, please the movies are great but this kick is worthless and yet it get tought by everyone except me but my students learn it from vido games and movies.


 
Yes, I don't think it has much use either, maybe very rare situations.

I actually had this attempted against me when I was a teenager.  I was fighting two guys between a community center and dentist office (grass alleyway).  Next thing I knew, I heard a "Yaahhh," and out of my peripheral vision came another guy (friend of theirs) running at me then jumping into a flying side kick.  I sidestepped and held my arm out.  The guy's kicking leg caught on my arm and he dropped on his head on the grass.  He didn't continue after that.

R. McLain


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## FearlessFreep (Jul 25, 2008)

Be honest, how many if you secretly wish these kicks were more practical?  I mean who wouldn't want to fend off the biker gang from the young lady with a spinning hook to the gang leader's jaw followed up with a double front kick to his two lieutenants before the rest of them scatter before your awesome aerial kicks??


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## MA-Caver (Jul 25, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> Be honest, how many if you secretly wish these kicks were more practical?  I mean who wouldn't want to fend off the biker gang from the young lady with a spinning hook to the gang leader's jaw followed up with a double front kick to his two lieutenants before the rest of them scatter before your awesome aerial kicks??


Yep, it'd impress the young lady alright. :uhyeah:

Unless of course she is the girlfriend of the biker gang leader who just happened to be in the middle of an argument with her old man and YOU decide to interpret it as an attempted kidnapping ("get on the bike dammit!" "NO! Leave me alone!!" ) and jump in with your superkicks... way to go fella.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 25, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> Be honest, how many if you secretly wish these kicks were more practical? I mean who wouldn't want to fend off the biker gang from the young lady with a spinning hook to the gang leader's jaw followed up with a double front kick to his two lieutenants before the rest of them scatter before your awesome aerial kicks??


 


MA-Caver said:


> Yep, it'd impress the young lady alright. :uhyeah:
> 
> Unless of course she is the girlfriend of the biker gang leader who just happened to be in the middle of an argument with her old man and YOU decide to interpret it as an attempted kidnapping ("get on the bike dammit!" "NO! Leave me alone!!" ) and jump in with your superkicks... way to go fella.


 
Being one that use to hang out in biker bars in my misbegotten youth... it is stuff like this that could get one seriously hurt.

A spinning hook to the gang leader's jaw followed up with a double front kick to his two lieutenants.

Who then all stand there staring at you and say "now you've mad us mad"...or pull out their 45s or 38s or 44mags

But it sure is the stuff of a real cool movie scene


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## girlbug2 (Jul 25, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> The big problem with the horseback theory.... horse are tall, you'd have to be clearing 6 feet and kicking at 8 feet. Those Okinawans / Koreans aren't the tallest people on the planet either. I just can't see someone kicking a person off a horse.


 
Actually, if it was invented in modern times it could be explained as a kick invented to knock somebody off of a motorcycle


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## StuartA (Jul 28, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Simple flying jumping sidekick, like your opponet is just going to stand there while you come running at him and jump with that foot going right at him, please the movies are great but this kick is worthless and yet it get tought by everyone except me but my students learn it from vido games and movies.


 


MA-Caver said:


> Agreed, the only way that kick could work is that if you're on a first strike mood and your opponent has got their back turned to you and is wearing IPODS blaring out music.


 
I beg to differ! Having used it in a real SD enviroment to protect someone else when they were attacked (and thus had to cover ground first) I can testify that a. It has its place b. It worked very well! 

Stuart


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 28, 2008)

All  right we have a different thought on the kick.  that is good

so what would your most useless kick be


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## igillman (Jul 28, 2008)

My most useless kicks are anything above waist height because, for me, they have no power behind them. I can kick up to shoulder height but by then I might just as well tap them on the shoulder as both the tap and the kick have the same force behind them.


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## YoungMan (Jul 28, 2008)

I think it should be pointed out: Just because a kick doesn't work for one person doesn't mean it's useless. Those who criticize high and jumping kicks have never been on the receiving end of one done correctly.
There are kicks you are less likely to use, but all have their place.


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## igillman (Jul 28, 2008)

Just for the record, my post above said "My useless kicks". I was not saying that all high kicks are useless, just "my" high kicks.


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## TKDTony2179 (Aug 24, 2013)

shesulsa said:


> Useless in a real fight situation, I'm assuming. This kick wasn't taught to me but to a couple other, more talented students - an upside-down jumping spin kick.
> 
> I think pushing your ability to control your body in time and space and make it do extraordinary things has value ... but I just can't see using this IRL ... unless you're fighting Spiderman or your opponent is hanging from a fire escape ladder or chandelier or something.



How in the world could someone do that??


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## TKDTony2179 (Aug 24, 2013)

terryl965 said:


> Simple flying jumping sidekick, like your opponet is just going to stand there while you come running at him and jump with that foot going right at him, please the movies are great but this kick is worthless and yet it get tought by everyone except me but my students learn it from vido games and movies.




Would work only if you are about 2 feet in front of them and they are winded or you do it after a evade. Then some may call it just a jump side kick.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 24, 2013)

Depends on what you expect the flying sidekick to accomplish. If you see TKD as nothing more than a sport, then I will agree that a flying side kick is unlikely to score, in most common matches. But if you see TKD as a Martial Art, then I disagree. A flying sidekick or a full turning back kick or any of several other kicks that generate phenomenal amounts of power can be used in a self defense situation. I've thrown the full turning back kick several times in sparring situations and the most common result is that even if you block them, there's a good chance you're going to be sitting down, or at least wildly off balance. And when there's no referee to stop things, there's a pretty good chance that this will give me an opportunity to finish the fight.

And I can't believe I'm joining in on this zombie resurrection. :rofl:


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## TKDTony2179 (Aug 24, 2013)

mango.man said:


> Oh see, now this is an easy one. It would be the "snake kick".
> 
> Now since most people have never heard of such a thing when I have spoken of this before, please allow me to descibe a "snake kick" as it was taught to my daughter many years ago. Please feel free to follow along at home.
> 
> ...




I had to get on youtube to see what you was talking about because you lost me with the not chambered kick part. Are you talking about this kick?  



  If so then yea for most peope the twist kick(snake kick) is one of the most unnatural kick to do and does take training and flexibality to do. I usally start my kick as a round kick chamber and then swing it into a twist. Usefullness more than likely no higher than waist high aimed at the groin. But to each is his own.


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## TKDTony2179 (Aug 25, 2013)

FearlessFreep said:


> OK, here is a quick demo of a z-kick.
> 
> http://r4h-music.com/movies/mymovie2.mov
> 
> ...




Can't pull up that link


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 25, 2013)

Andrew Green said:


> The big problem with the horseback theory.... horse are tall, you'd have to be clearing 6 feet and kicking at 8 feet.  Those Okinawans / Koreans aren't the tallest people on the planet either.  I just can't see someone kicking a person off a horse.



Maybe they are not jumping from the ground level but are jumping off a hill or rocky outcropping or the riders are riding very short horses.


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 25, 2013)

YoungMan said:


> I think it should be pointed out: Just because a kick doesn't work for one person doesn't mean it's useless.



A kick that doesn't work for someone is useless to THEM.


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 25, 2013)

Miles said:


> I vote for twisting kick and crescent kicks.  Great for training, useless in combat.....



Not really. Twisting kicks can be used to attack the groin when the attacker is side on and thinks it can't be reached. It can be used on someone who is attempting to sneak up behind you or if you are doing a front kick and they move to the outside so you can change it to the twisting kick. You can use it to kick around an object such as a pole.  It is not the most powerful kick but it can take them by surprise so you can follow up with something more powerful. Crescent kicks, aimed high, leave you groin vulnerable, but used as a sweep they can be very effective. They can be used to knock away someones guard or knock a blunt object out of someones hand (risky but can work if you surprise them and are very quick). You can use one to knock someone out after doubling someone over with a front kick (essentially a mid section kick so less risky). There any number of possible uses for both kicks so I think calling them useless for combat is a bit harsh.


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 25, 2013)

I would say, any heel kick that kicks with the ball of the foot instead of the heel and the rapid fire turning kicks, such as in the video below, that keep 'turning up' in TKD demo's, they have no power and waste a lot of unnecessary energy for little return.


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 25, 2013)

terryl965 said:


> Simple flying jumping sidekick, like your opponet is just going to stand there while you come running at him and jump with that foot going right at him, please the movies are great but this kick is worthless and yet it get tought by everyone except me but my students learn it from vido games and movies.



If they move to your outside you can follow them with your kick, they move, they think they have avoided the kick and you still get them. I have seen it and done it many times. The best way to do one is to run normally and then, without warning, suddenly jump and kick, that way they just think you are running at them and not going to kick. A lot of students, when learning the kick will often make some unusual steps just before jumping which gives it away until they know better. Some possible uses could be if you have to clear an object on the ground to kick someone attacking someone you are trying to protect while their not looking. Also if you are getting chased by someone and his friend jumps out in front of you to block your path you can kick them with it and continue on your way, barely missing a step. That's why they are taught to everyone.


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## msmitht (Aug 25, 2013)

Last year at state one of my green belts landed a 2 step jump side to his opponent and knocked him out of the ring. No point but it was 2nd kyungo in overtime so got the win.


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## Archtkd (Aug 25, 2013)

terryl965 said:


> Simple flying jumping sidekick, like your opponet is just going to stand there while you come running at him and jump with that foot going right at him, please the movies are great but this kick is worthless and yet it get tought by everyone except me but my students learn it from vido games and movies.



Sir -- Agree it's not the best kick, but I'm not quite sure it's that useless  I think steve Lopez -- on his way to winning 5 world championships -- has used variatios of the jumping/flying side kick to great effect. I think you'll see some of that in this video --


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## sopraisso (Aug 25, 2013)

Hey, look! A vid about bandal chagi do!
Hahaha. Just kidding. There are excellent athletes there but I couldn't resist after watching for a couple if minutes lol.
Would you point out at what time we see the jumping side kicks? It would be great to see them, but I just don't seem to be able to watch the whole vid!

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## sopraisso (Aug 25, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> I would say, any heel kick that kicks with the ball of the foot instead of the heel and the rapid fire turning kicks, such as in the video below, that keep 'turning up' in TKD demo's, they have no power and waste a lot of unnecessary energy for little return.



I don't think they're useless. I heard they do score many points! :-D

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## Jaeimseu (Aug 26, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> I would say, any heel kick that kicks with the ball of the foot instead of the heel and the rapid fire turning kicks, such as in the video below, that keep 'turning up' in TKD demo's, they have no power and waste a lot of unnecessary energy for little return.



Those kicks have little power when done incorrectly. You can hit pretty hard if you do it right.

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## RTKDCMB (Aug 26, 2013)

sopraisso said:


> I don't think they're useless. I heard they do score many points! :-D
> 
> Enviado de meu GT-I9300 usando Tapatalk 4



True but what's good for scoring points is not necessarily good for self defence.


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## Archtkd (Aug 26, 2013)

sopraisso said:


> Would you point out at what time we see the jumping side kicks? It would be great to see them, but I just don't seem to be able to watch the whole vid!
> 
> Enviado de meu GT-I9300 usando Tapatalk 4



As I said, variations -- 1:12, 1:42, 3:37, 4:19, and 8:30


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## sopraisso (Aug 26, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> True but what's good for scoring points is not necessarily good for self defence.



When it comes to self-defense, the variety of kicking techniques drops radically and not only the fanciest ones become bad ideas. Even very popular sparring techniques like the round kick and its variations (shin, instep, snap back, etc.) represent less safe and effective options (not surprisingly, the round kick itself isn't included in older karate forms that influenced modern taekwondo forms).

In my self-defense repertoire I would keep only the most basic techniques and their variations (that includes a wide set of useful responses to attacks called "makki" or "blocks" in taekwondo), so the kicking techniques would be very few. Should I say everything else is useless?

Maybe I didn't get the idea of the thread, but I thought it was about techniques useless in every kind of situation (including sport). If techniques not useful for self-defense should be included in the "useless label", then the list should be far bigger than jumping kicks or other fancy stuff. The difference between sport is bigger than most practitioners notice (not saying that most people here don't understand the difference, but we know quite a few don't, indeed).

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## sopraisso (Aug 26, 2013)

Archtkd said:


> As I said, variations -- 1:12, 1:42, 3:37, 4:19, and 8:30



Just saw a few reasonable uses of variations of jumping side kick. Point for those who say it's not useless. :thumbup: (Whoever doubts should check the vid by themselves).

And yes, if we're only talking about self-defense, it's a whole different talk.

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## sopraisso (Aug 26, 2013)

sopraisso said:


> When it comes to self-defense, the variety of kicking techniques drops radically and not only the fanciest ones become bad ideas. Even very popular sparring techniques like the round kick and its variations (shin, instep, snap back, etc.) represent less safe and effective options (not surprisingly, the round kick itself isn't included in older karate forms that influenced modern taekwondo forms).
> 
> In my self-defense repertoire I would keep only the most basic techniques and their variations (that includes a wide set of useful responses to attacks called "makki" or "blocks" in taekwondo), so the kicking techniques would be very few. Should I say everything else is useless?
> 
> ...


 [Bold emphasis added]

I meant "The difference between sport _and self-defense_ is bigger than most practitioners notice".
(I actually meant this to be an edit to the previous post, but my mobile apparently created a whole new post, so I had to come to PC fix this as I could. lol)


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## TKDTony2179 (Aug 28, 2013)

I use to tell someone that I thought that the outside cresent kick was useless. But maybe I haven't found a good proper use for it yet and please dont come at me with to block a punch. I hate one steps with move in it. Although my instructor says you may use it to drop the front hand of your op guard but haven't done that while sparring either.  Even the jump spin outside cresent kick is more useless unless your op runs into it.

Now If we are talking about self-defense then we must ask what is more dependable.  I would say round, side, back, and front kicks are more dependable than anything with a jump, a spin, or a jump spin kick.  Unlike Sopraisso I do believe the mawashi-geri or dollyo chagi is a good weapon to use. The groin would be excellent target for a simple round kick.


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## Gnarlie (Aug 28, 2013)

The joy of outside crescent for sport is that you can use a front leg outside crescent with a step, to bring the kicking leg up behind your opponent's shoulder where they can't see it coming, then whap them across the face with it.

The disadvantage is this approach leaves you open to a back kick counter if they do see it coming.

For SD purposes, a motion similar to outside crescent but lower makes a leg sweep.

I don't think there are any useless kicks. They all teach something.


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## TKDTony2179 (Aug 28, 2013)

Gnarlie said:


> The joy of outside crescent for sport is that you can use a front leg outside crescent with a step, to bring the kicking leg up behind your opponent's shoulder where they can't see it coming, then whap them across the face with it.
> 
> The disadvantage is this approach leaves you open to a back kick counter if they do see it coming.
> 
> ...



I never seen the outside cresent as a sweep but I have seen the inside crsesent for sweeps like in moon moo pattern.  Guess I have got more studying to do in understanding the kicks in TKD.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 28, 2013)

MY useless kick is the tornado kick - it's too slow and too rigid in terms of required target location.  I get envious when I see people do it well.  My right leg spinning hook kick is also too slow, so I am working on getting that to be as good as the left leg, then I'll move on to tornado.


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 28, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> MY useless kick is the tornado kick - it's too slow and too rigid in terms of required target location.  I get envious when I see people do it well.  My right leg spinning hook kick is also too slow, so I am working on getting that to be as good as the left leg, then I'll move on to tornado.



If you are talking about the 540 spinning turning kick, I find that particularly hard on my back.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 28, 2013)

I think by "540" , people mean that the kicker is landing on the kicking leg.  I am talking about turning to your back with a spin, doing a round house, and landing on the non kicking leg first.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Sep 1, 2013)

Can the spinning leg sweep (like a spinning hook kick, but done crouched to the ground) ever work?? That seems like the most useless kick to me.  I have seen it done in martial arts practice, but never against an actual opponent.


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## TKDTony2179 (Sep 1, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Can the spinning leg sweep (like a spinning hook kick, but done crouched to the ground) ever work?? That seems like the most useless kick to me.  I have seen it done in martial arts practice, but never against an actual opponent.



Yea that would be hard to pull off.


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## Gnarlie (Sep 1, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Can the spinning leg sweep (like a spinning hook kick, but done crouched to the ground) ever work?? That seems like the most useless kick to me.  I have seen it done in martial arts practice, but never against an actual opponent.



It can absolutely work, especially against an inexperienced kicker. 

I think the most impractical kick I've ever been encouraged to attempt is back-stepped twisting kick.

Gnarlie


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## ralphmcpherson (Sep 3, 2013)

I dont think anything I've learnt is "useless", but I am a believer that there are only so many hours in the day and you are better off spending one solid hour doing two hundred front kicks then spending that hour trying over and over again to perfect a jump spinning hook kick, for example.


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## Balrog (Sep 7, 2013)

tshadowchaser said:


> Just because I am in one of those moods:
> 
> What is (to YOU) the most useless kick you have been taught, have seen, or know will be taught to you. WHY


Jumping kicks of any kind.  They're good for challenging yourself in terms of discipline, etc., but totally worthless for self-defense.


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## Dobbelsteen (Sep 8, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I dont think anything I've learnt is "useless", but I am a believer that there are only so many hours in the day and you are better off spending one solid hour doing two hundred front kicks then spending that hour trying over and over again to perfect a jump spinning hook kick, for example.



If you are training just to learn how to defend yourself, i guess that would indeed be more effective. But if you enjoy doing more flashy kicks, might as well spend that hour learning that jumped spinning hook kick. If I would spend all my time perfecting just the basic moves I'd probably get bored after a while and find me a more fun sport to do.


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## ralphmcpherson (Sep 8, 2013)

Dobbelsteen said:


> If you are training just to learn how to defend yourself, i guess that would indeed be more effective. But if you enjoy doing more flashy kicks, might as well spend that hour learning that jumped spinning hook kick. If I would spend all my time perfecting just the basic moves I'd probably get bored after a while and find me a more fun sport to do.


boxers must get really bored then.


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## Dobbelsteen (Sep 8, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> boxers must get really bored then.



Not saying everybody gets bored of it, but that is the reason I don't like boxing so much


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## ralphmcpherson (Sep 8, 2013)

Dobbelsteen said:


> Not saying everybody gets bored of it, but that is the reason I don't like boxing so much


I suppose its each to their own. For me if Im training in a "martial art", then I dedicate 100% of my time to learning to defend myself, thus my original post. If I want to learn to jump around spinning etc I would just do gymnastics. If Martial arts was my full time job then I would probably muck around with some flashy stuff for a bit of fun, but Im self employed, married, two kids and have other hobbies and interests so the time I can invest into martial arts is limited so I tend to focus my time on things that are simple and effective and do them over and over again.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 9, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I suppose its each to their own. For me if Im training in a "martial art", then I dedicate 100% of my time to learning to defend myself, ....



About 30 years ago I met an Israeli and asked if he learned the "Martial Art" of Krav Maga in the army.  This was long before it was mass marketed and repackaged fr consumers. 

I found his reply quite interesting; "What art? There is no art to kneeing someone in the nuts."   Just sayin'.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 9, 2013)

Is "foot sweep" considered as one of the TKD kicks?











http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDkyMTIzMDE2.html


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## chrispillertkd (Sep 9, 2013)

Yes.

Pax,

Chris


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## punisher73 (Sep 10, 2013)

zDom said:


> Gonna play the Devil's Advocate here for a sec
> 
> I've always thought a flying sidekick does have at least ONE use:
> 
> ...



My instructor used to help out with store security years ago.  He used that kick in that exact scenario, guy was wrestling around with a cop and trying to get his gun out of the holster and was not paying any other attention.  Worked very well in that scenario.

I think all kicks have a time and place.

As far as the double front kick, that kick was just used by Lyoto Machida in the UFC to KO Randy Couture.  Especially using the first as a set up to gain distance and get their attention elsewhere.

For me, I am not good enough to do the more "exotic" kicks and stick to the low kicks to the legs etc.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 10, 2013)

A 45 degree downward flying side kick (aiming at your opponent's knee joint) is a good entering strategy. It will put your opponent in defense mode and that will be safe for you. Any kicks that aiming your opponent's knee joint are good kicks


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## zDom (Oct 3, 2013)

Balrog said:


> Jumping kicks of any kind.  They're good for challenging yourself in terms of discipline, etc., but totally worthless for self-defense.



They are only useless for someone who hasn't trained them well enough to really use them and doesn't understand their art enough to know when to use them.


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## zDom (Oct 3, 2013)

TKDTony2179 said:


> Yea that would be hard to pull off.



Similar kick &#8212; done with straight leg instead of hooking it &#8212; was one several Old Timers in my organization recall seeing the late GM Lee H. Park train regularly &#8212; and as part of a combo. My instructor told me of how Park was seen doing the spinning heel kick at the ankle-height followed immediately by a jump spinning heel kick to the head (hitting a speed bag!) immediately into a spinning heel kick at the ankle &#8212; etc.

Asked if he ever used that combination to defend himself, the answer was almost: the first kick (ankle high) hit the attacker so hard the attacker urinated on himself. The second kick was moot as the attacker had hit the ground after his feet were taken out from under him.

Personally I would probably NEVER use the low spinning heel kick. I suck at it. It wasn't a required kick so I put my time into reps on kicks that were required.

But a jump front kick? Sure. Maybe even as a first kick. Jump backside? Yep. Be easy to sucker someone into that. And, if I had already stunned someone and was looking for a powerful finish: a jump roundhouse would sure do the trick.

I have a comfort with a confidence in all of these from decades of training and pressure testing in very hard contact sparring. YMMV.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 8, 2013)

14 Kempo said:


> I also agree, this kick was developed during times when it may have been useful, to pick people off of horseback (at least that's how I heard it).


I've heard that too.  I don't believe it for even a hundredth of a second.


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## zDom (Oct 8, 2013)

I don't believe the "flying kicks are to dismount folks on horses" thing either.


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## Dinkydoo (Oct 8, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I've heard that too.  I don't believe it for even a hundredth of a second.



Heard the same thing. 

I think a jump front kick is quite useful in avoiding a leg sweep because it offers an immediate counter as you evade. Obviously you don't need to jump as high as you would when training the kick!


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## Jaeimseu (Oct 9, 2013)

zDom said:


> I don't believe the "flying kicks are to dismount folks on horses" thing either.



Yeah, that's an antiquated application of the technique. In modern Taekwondo it's used almost exclusively as a defense against biker gangs.

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## andyjeffries (Oct 9, 2013)

jaeimseu said:


> yeah, that's an antiquated application of the technique. In modern taekwondo it's used almost exclusively as a defense against biker gangs.



rotflmao!


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## Koshiki (Oct 21, 2013)

As far as jumping kicks, well, as an opener, I think there is some merit to them, for those that can do them well and practice them in actual application. I prefer jumping knee strikes, because I like to be VERY close when sparring. If I can't elbow without moving my feet, I feel too far away! Are they a good go to/self-defense technique? I'd say probably not, at least not for the majority of us!



Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Can the spinning leg sweep (like a spinning hook kick, but done crouched to the ground) ever work?? That seems like the most useless kick to me.  I have seen it done in martial arts practice, but never against an actual opponent.



One of the very few physical altercations I've has in my short life consisted of this, and nothing but this! It was a situation where, apparently the girl I was hanging out with on our local "celebrate how awesome our town is day", was the girlfriend of this guy with some angsty teenage possessiveness issues. Anyway, he came up to me, his buddies ringed around, and he proceeded to be all big n' scurry n' tuff. (Tricky to do, when your "second in command" is wearing plaid leggings and Hot Topic "combat boots"...) Anyway, it was a generally silly situation which scared the crap out of 15-16 year old me. While he was still posturing, I swept him. He fell hard, and I scampered back to the main street where the cops were. So, if you are ever encircled by angry 15 year olds who've probably never hit anything before, it may be a good option! Otherwise...

Oooh. Another useless flashy kick story as effective self-defense. Around the same age, I was at a local rock event called "homegrown." I think attendance for the whole day must have been MAXIMUM 200 people... Anyway, my group of friends somehow really angered another group of teens. Throughout the day, they become more and more threatening. Finally, one of my friends noticed that a bunch of them had sort of "mustered" and were heading across the field to where we were, looking kinda angry. He told me to do "fancy Karate stuff." I did a bunch of jump-spinning kicks in series, and tried to look super-cool about it. It worked, the scary guys stopped and turned around. Although we did end up having to book it for our car later that evening anyway...

So yeah, perhaps flashy kicks have some good uses as fight deterrents, when your would be aggressors are easily intimidated teenagers who are more interested in posturing than actually hitting you. Outside of that, I like my elbows, palms, and low kicks, thank you very much!


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 22, 2013)

Jumping kick useless?


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## Koshiki (Oct 22, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> Jumping kick useless?



I think one issue is not so much their combat effectiveness, but rather their lack of obvious defensiveness. A running, jumping, leaping, flying side-kick is a great way to launch yourself into an unarmed battle, or even end the battle with your opening move; but harder to work into a situation which we might reasonably consider self-defense.

In sparring games, I love jumping kicks; they're great for just blasting your way into the other guy's defense. But that's sparring, and aggressive sparring at that.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 23, 2013)

Zack Cart said:


> A running, jumping, leaping, flying side-kick is a great way to launch yourself into an unarmed battle, or even end the battle with your opening move; but harder to work into a situation which we might reasonably consider self-defense.



I can think of 2 off the top of my head;

1) You are being chased by a group of people, someone jumps out in front of you to stop you or slow you down, you do a flying side kick to knock him down and then keep running with little interruption.

2) You see someone getting attacked by 2 or more people you run in with a flying side kick and take one of the attacker by surprise.


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## ralphmcpherson (Oct 23, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> I can think of 2 off the top of my head;
> 
> 1) You are being chased by a group of people, someone jumps out in front of you to stop you or slow you down, you do a flying side kick to knock him down and then keep running with little interruption.
> 
> 2) You see someone getting attacked by 2 or more people you run in with a flying side kick and take one of the attacker by surprise.


I saw this done years ago. A guy had left his mate to go and get a drink (outdoor festival), upon returning he saw three guys shoving his mate around and came running in with a flying side kick and sent two of them flying and how it didnt break the back of the third guy I will never know.They both ran off leaving the three on the ground. It was hillarious and everyone around just stood there wondering what on earth had just happened.My mates and I still have a laugh about it to this day.


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## Koshiki (Oct 23, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> 1) You are being chased by a group of people, someone jumps out in front of you to stop you or slow you down, you do a flying side kick to knock him down and then keep running with little interruption.
> 
> 2) You see someone getting attacked by 2 or more people you run in with a flying side kick and take one of the attacker by surprise.



Agreed. But, I wouldn't say that either of those is obviously defensive, more preemptive, from your own personal vantage. What I mean is, in the specific interval in which person A flying kicks person B, person A must start from a position of relative disengagement from person B, and intentionally enter combat. It can, in specific circumstances such as you mention be defensive of your self, but it is pretty tricky to utilize as a defense against a realized, rather than impending attack. Re-reading what I wrote, I realize that I wrote it poorly.

Also, a situation like one, I would speculate, is relatively rare. A situation like two, would technically be more of defense of others, rather than self-defense. Defense of others is always a tricky, complicated ground, because, as you enter in defense of another, you become the assailant of the original assailants, who were not assailing you. I think, unless I wrote down to many assailants who assail the unassailed but assailing...

-----------------

On another note, I have to step in a re-iterate what always gets said in these sorts of conversations, and indeed has already been said. What works for one may not work for most! I love snapping ball-of-the-foot inverted roundhouse kicks up to the side of the head, from close, clinching range, but I'm 24 with hard-earned flexy hips. Will I still be doing those kicks in 10, 15, 20 years? I hope so, but I know it will become more and more difficult, and require more and more upkeep. On the other hand, I'm only 150 pounds, so techniques that some can do, relying on dropping your bodyweight to pull the attacker off balance, or into the wall, or whatever, often leave my feet dangling, still pinned against the wall, if I don't modify it to utilize something more than dead weight.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 25, 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQez4jQO81c&list=PL773A90DEAA9A50F9


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