# Empty Hand to Clinch



## stonewall1350 (Feb 16, 2018)

Just wondering about names/techniques used with empty hand on empty hand or empty hand on knife/stick to setup a clinch. I’m a strong grappler and getting a lot better with jiujitsu stand up than ever before. I am going to start taking some privates if I can around this concept. Obviously I will talk to the instructor about it, but I’d love to have some additional knowledge to discuss and see. Plus I’m curious about how you FMA guys contend with grappling and takedowns (because you have them and they are slightly different than us jiu Jitsu guys). 


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 16, 2018)

stonewall1350 said:


> Just wondering about names/techniques used with empty hand on empty hand ... to setup a clinch.


In Chinese wrestling, this set of techniques is called "butterfly hands".

For example, you can use "separate hands" to separate 

- both of your opponent's arms upward (to achieve head lock, over hooks, ...).
- both of your opponent's arms downward (to achieve under hooks, bear hug, double legs, ...).
- left arm upward, right arm downward (left over hook, right under hook).
- left arm downward, right arm upward (left under hook, right over hook).


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## Anarax (Feb 16, 2018)

stonewall1350 said:


> Just wondering about names/techniques used with empty hand on empty hand or empty hand on knife/stick to setup a clinch.


Clinch is kind of a loose term so I'm unsure if your idea of a "clinch" is different than mine. Many FMA schools in the US assign numbers to most techniques. Many entry techniques, angles and locks are assigned numbers to simplify it. This video does of good job of illustrating some of the grappling in FMA.  








stonewall1350 said:


> Plus I’m curious about how you FMA guys contend with grappling and takedowns (because you have them and they are slightly different than us jiu Jitsu guys).


Yes, many of our grappling techniques are different, though there are some similarities. The main reason for the difference is many FMA styles have a weapon emphasis, thus we try to make techniques as "universal"(dealing with unarmed or armed attacks) as possible. For example, going for a single or double leg take-down on a knife wielding opponent puts you in tremendous danger, same goes for a traditional hip throw. "De-fanging" is a major concept in FMA as well, it's essentially attacking your opponent's weapons(hands, arms, etc). That's why Paul Vunak is incorporating so many strikes aimed at his partners arms.

Note that we also have sweeps, throws and other take-downs. This video does a good job of showing the entries. The entries wouldn't vary that much from the ones in the video for sweeps and throws.


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## Headhunter (Feb 16, 2018)

Why on earth would you want to clinch someone with a knife


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## stonewall1350 (Feb 17, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Why on earth would you want to clinch someone with a knife



I don’t. I carry a gun. If someone brings a knife...I want space and I want to shoot them. But I want to knock someone down if I don’t have that option...and then run away and shoot them if they come back. 


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## stonewall1350 (Feb 17, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Clinch is kind of a loose term so I'm unsure if your idea of a "clinch" is different than mine. Many FMA schools in the US assign numbers to most techniques. Many entry techniques, angles and locks are assigned numbers to simplify it. This video does of good job of illustrating some of the grappling in FMA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks man. I certainly understand defanging. I can’t wait to sit down and watch this stuff. At a tournament atm. 


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## drop bear (Feb 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Why on earth would you want to clinch someone with a knife



Head and wrist control?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 18, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Head and wrist control?


I assume this is what he's talking about. Not a Muay Thai type of clinch (both hands controlling head/shoulders), but the kind of clinch I teach with - just really close, high control grappling, which can include good arm control on one side. If they have a knife and I get my hand(s) on that arm, I want to own that arm and as much of his body as I can. Sometimes, yep, that's a clinch.


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## drop bear (Feb 18, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I assume this is what he's talking about. Not a Muay Thai type of clinch (both hands controlling head/shoulders), but the kind of clinch I teach with - just really close, high control grappling, which can include good arm control on one side. If they have a knife and I get my hand(s) on that arm, I want to own that arm and as much of his body as I can. Sometimes, yep, that's a clinch.



There are some really good sort of draggy down moves from there. Two hands on the wrist grind your head in to theirs and just power bomb them in to the deck.

Leaned a good figure 4 control that does that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 18, 2018)

drop bear said:


> There are some really good sort of draggy down moves from there. Two hands on the wrist grind your head in to theirs and just power bomb them in to the deck.
> 
> Leaned a good figure 4 control that does that.


Yep. I know a lot of techniques I could use to take down or or disarm someone wielding a knife, many of which would only come into play if somehow I don't have both hands on that knife arm. If I get both hands on their wrist, I'm not using anything that doesn't include both hands on their wrist. That wrist is mine, and I'm keeping it, because it owns a knife.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 19, 2018)

I've had some success with a modified Russian two-on-one, which helps me stay to the opponent's outside gate. You do have to be careful to maintain control over the direction of the opponent's body so he can't pass the knife to his free hand (or draw another knife with his free hand and turn towards you).

As far as why I would ever do it in real life (as opposed to training ), it would probably only happen if the knife came into play when the opponent was already close and I had no time or clear route to make space, run, or pick up a weapon of my own. Hopefully that will never happen to me - knives are dangerous and I have no desire to find out whether my skills are sufficient to thwart a real knife attack.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 19, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I've had some success with a modified Russian two-on-one, which helps me stay to the opponent's outside gate. You do have to be careful to maintain control over the direction of the opponent's body so he can't pass the knife to his free hand (or draw another knife with his free hand and turn towards you).
> 
> As far as why I would ever do it in real life (as opposed to training ), it would probably only happen if the knife came into play when the opponent was already close and I had no time or clear route to make space, run, or pick up a weapon of my own. Hopefully that will never happen to me - knives are dangerous and I have no desire to find out whether my skills are sufficient to thwart a real knife attack.


Tony, I'm not familiar with that term ("Russian two-on-one"). If I do a YouTube search, will it turn up what you're talking about, or am I going to end up with a bunch of porn?


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 19, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Tony, I'm not familiar with that term ("Russian two-on-one"). If I do a YouTube search, will it turn up what you're talking about, or am I going to end up with a bunch of porn?


It's a standard wrestling term. You'll get a bunch of wrestling videos. (Also one My Little Pony video for some reason.)


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 19, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It's a standard wrestling term. You'll get a bunch of wrestling videos. (Also one My Little Pony video for some reason.)


Somehow, I'm don't feel entirely safe watching the latter.


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## drop bear (Feb 19, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I've had some success with a modified Russian two-on-one, which helps me stay to the opponent's outside gate. You do have to be careful to maintain control over the direction of the opponent's body so he can't pass the knife to his free hand (or draw another knife with his free hand and turn towards you).
> 
> As far as why I would ever do it in real life (as opposed to training ), it would probably only happen if the knife came into play when the opponent was already close and I had no time or clear route to make space, run, or pick up a weapon of my own. Hopefully that will never happen to me - knives are dangerous and I have no desire to find out whether my skills are sufficient to thwart a real knife attack.



If you see them go for a pocket. It sets up well.


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## drop bear (Feb 19, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Tony, I'm not familiar with that term ("Russian two-on-one"). If I do a YouTube search, will it turn up what you're talking about, or am I going to end up with a bunch of porn?



For Aikido. That should almost become your bread and butter.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 20, 2018)

drop bear said:


> For Aikido. That should almost become your bread and butter.


Had to go and look it up. It's not nearly as common (either in Aikido or in NGA) as it ought to be - it doesn't match the distance most people work at. I use a variation of it rather regularly. I like it for tying up the close arm from the outside, and takedowns are easily accessible from it. There's a nice application to our Elbow Chop from there, which I've not seen other instructors teach.


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## drop bear (Feb 20, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Had to go and look it up. It's not nearly as common (either in Aikido or in NGA) as it ought to be - it doesn't match the distance most people work at. I use a variation of it rather regularly. I like it for tying up the close arm from the outside, and takedowns are easily accessible from it. There's a nice application to our Elbow Chop from there, which I've not seen other instructors teach.


In wrestling you mostly just get it and then throw it away due to the relatively low percentage of getting an arm or wristlock on a wrestler. 

But anything that isolates and extends the arm is important if you are trying to get those wristlocks and armbars. Especially it the other guy is using posture at all.

Which will reduce that issue of people going tyranosaurus arms on you and making it impossible to get anything.

That was one of the major issues I had trying to wrist lock people is I would grab the arm, they would t rex up. And we would just dance around looking like idiots.

A good clinch game changed those odds a bit for me. Because I could move fairly safely away from punching while applying pressure and breaking posture.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 20, 2018)

drop bear said:


> In wrestling you mostly just get it and then throw it away due to the relatively low percentage of getting an arm or wristlock on a wrestler.
> 
> But anything that isolates and extends the arm is important if you are trying to get those wristlocks and armbars. Especially it the other guy is using posture at all.
> 
> ...


From that, I wouldn't go for wristlocks and arm bars - there's better options that don't give up the tight control.

With wrist locks, IME, it's all about getting them in before they know what's happening, or getting their structure broken enough that they can't resist. Someone with good structure who realizes what you are doing can stop the lock pretty easily. That's the issue cops have with cuffing - the perp/suspect knows they need that arm behind the back to cuff properly, and can focus his efforts entirely on preventing it. In a defensive situation, we don't have to be so single-minded, so someone t-rexing (I like that term) just opens up room for strikes and stuff.


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## drop bear (Feb 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Tony, I'm not familiar with that term ("Russian two-on-one"). If I do a YouTube search, will it turn up what you're talking about, or am I going to end up with a bunch of porn?




I came across some random fun two on one stuff.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=599102473785918


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 21, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I came across some random fun two on one stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That first one is pretty close to the Elbow Chop application I mentioned. I shift to controlling the elbow from underneath and connect it to my center. Otherwise, pretty much the same thing. I like the throw - a good extension of our Over the Back throw (some lazy naming in NGA) - I'm going to want to work on that one.


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## drop bear (Feb 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That first one is pretty close to the Elbow Chop application I mentioned. I shift to controlling the elbow from underneath and connect it to my center. Otherwise, pretty much the same thing. I like the throw - a good extension of our Over the Back throw (some lazy naming in NGA) - I'm going to want to work on that one.



They are not throws I would learn for practicality, in that they would take too long to learn from a position I don't get too often. But definitely some cool ideas there.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 23, 2018)

drop bear said:


> They are not throws I would learn for practicality, in that they would take too long to learn from a position I don't get too often. But definitely some cool ideas there.


That particular throw is one of the easiest I know of. And with the way we (me and the folks I train) move and manipulate folks, it's closer to more common positions for us.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 23, 2018)

drop bear said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=599102473785918


You don't need to drop both of your knees on the ground to throw your opponent. You will lose your mobility for no good reason.


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