# What would karate be like?



## Miles (Jan 15, 2006)

I have culled this quote from another thread:

<< It's true that he made karate available to the masses.  But I doubt that we would not know what karate is today without him.

 The spread of karate was inevitable. Even without Funakoshi going to Japan and Shotokan building up around him, there was still Mabuni, Miyagi and others. It might have happened at a later date, but it would have spread - only differently.>>

What would karate be like today if Kenwa Mabuni had the same amount of influence as Gichin Funakoshi?

What would karate be like today if Chojun Miyagi had the same amount of influence as Gichin Funakoshi?

Miles


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## JPH (Jan 15, 2006)

Interesting question. It should be noted that prior to WWII, martial arts were being practiced in Hawaii. There were Judo, Ju Jitsu and Karate, and, to a limited extent, Kendo. Following the war the first people to teach Karate in the mainland USA were returning service men who had been exposed to Karate in Okinawa and Japan.

As a former educator in Okinawa, I believe Master Funakoshi's greatest contribution was to present Karate in a standardized educational format. As a result of this particular development in Japan, when Shotokan was first introduced into the USA, it eventually gained wide acceptance because it was taught in an organized manner.

If you view current martial arts organizations in this country, and elsewhere today, I believe that you will find that the most prolific are the ones that have the best organizational and educational content as the foundation of their schools.


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## Danjo (Jan 15, 2006)

I agree. It would have had to be organized the same way for it to have spread the same way. How many would have trained if they had to stick to Nihanchi Shodan for three years and do nothing else? How many would have stuck to it if it had only been Nihanchi Shodan and Nidan and the twelve true kumite forms of Motobu? Ford didn't make the best car. He made the assembly line, and thus got his cars out there affordably. The other maufacturers had to copy Ford to succeed. Funakoshi was the Henry Ford of Karate. A good product, well organized in order to be accessible to all.


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## Andrew Green (Jan 15, 2006)

I don't think it would be that different to be honest.

A lot of the things that changed weren't really Funakoshi's doing.  The Dai Nippon Butokai dictated a lot of the organizational changes, the sparring came from Kendo/ Judo.

Modern stuff is really not that heavily Gichin Funakoshi influenced, he was more the most influential person durring the changes then anything, He taught Itosu's style, although slightley modified and borrowing from a few other places.  A lot of the stylistic stuff actually was done be people after him.

Modern karate, being the stuff done in tournaments now, would have evolved to more or less the same place regardless of Funakoshi's involvement IMO.


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## Miles (Jan 16, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Modern stuff is really not that heavily Gichin Funakoshi influenced, he was more the most influential person durring the changes then anything, He taught Itosu's style, although slightley modified and borrowing from a few other places. A lot of the stylistic stuff actually was done be people after him.




Andrew, I am not sure I understand your point here.  If Gichin Funakoshi influenced changes to the art, then he influenced the direction of development.  I would draw an analogy to a golf ball-if you hit it off center even slightly, it will not go straight.



			
				Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Modern karate, being the stuff done in tournaments now, would have evolved to more or less the same place regardless of Funakoshi's involvement IMO.



Yes, I think the tournament movement was in derogation of Funakoshi's wishes.  I think Masatoshi Nakayama and Gogen Yamaguchi were more responsible for tournament karate than Gichin Funakoshi.

Miles


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## Danjo (Jan 18, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I don't think it would be that different to be honest.
> 
> A lot of the things that changed weren't really Funakoshi's doing. The Dai Nippon Butokai dictated a lot of the organizational changes, the sparring came from Kendo/ Judo.
> 
> ...


 
yes but what I said is still true, He brought it together and made it transmittable to the masses. Even if one doesn't practice the exact form he did. We all wear Gi's and use belt grades.


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## Andrew Green (Jan 18, 2006)

Which came from Kano and where put into Karate by the Dai Nippon Budokai, not a creation of Funakoshi.

He was just the guy in the right place when a lot of this stuff came down from above, through him and into karate.  Had anyone else been in his position, they would have made a lot of the same changes, or have been replaced by someone that was.

Karate in Japan was not Okinawan controlled, to reach that level it needed the Dai Nippon Budokai's support, and a lot of the changes where things they said had to be made for karate to be accepted as a Japanese Budo.


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## Danjo (Jan 18, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Which came from Kano and where put into Karate by the Dai Nippon Budokai, not a creation of Funakoshi.
> 
> He was just the guy in the right place when a lot of this stuff came down from above, through him and into karate. Had anyone else been in his position, they would have made a lot of the same changes, or have been replaced by someone that was.
> 
> Karate in Japan was not Okinawan controlled, to reach that level it needed the Dai Nippon Budokai's support, and a lot of the changes where things they said had to be made for karate to be accepted as a Japanese Budo.


 
Well, that's speculation. It's easy to discredit someone by saying, "well they were just in the right place at the right time." THe fact is that Funakoshi was the man. Whether it would have been someone else if he hadn't been there is neither provable nor relevant and does nothing except attempt to take away from his contribution.


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## Andrew Green (Jan 18, 2006)

Not trying to discredit him at all, he developed one of the most practiced systems.  But a lot of the changes where not his, they where the result of the Dai Nippon Budokai saying "This is the way you are going to do this now..."

Funakoshi, was the most influential person in karate on the mainland, so it came down through him.


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## Miles (Jan 18, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Which came from Kano and where put into Karate by the Dai Nippon Budokai, not a creation of Funakoshi.
> 
> ........
> Karate in Japan was not Okinawan controlled, to reach that level it needed the Dai Nippon Budokai's support, and a lot of the changes where things they said had to be made for karate to be accepted as a Japanese Budo.



Was the adaptation of the gi and obi by Karate from Judo the result of becoming a member of the DNB or, was it a requirement to get into that organization?

The Dai Nippon Butokukai was not a creation of Funakoshi, but I recall in Harry Cook's "Shotokan-A Precise History" that many of Funakoshi's Okinawan contemporaries were upset that he received rank from his student who was a member of the DNB (Yasuhiro Konishi).

Thanks for the responses thus far!

Miles


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## TimoS (Jan 19, 2006)

Miles said:
			
		

> was it a requirement to get into that organization?



If I remember correctly, it was a requirement to get into the organization


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