# Why are you so biased?



## Steve (Feb 7, 2011)

Everyone's biased.  Anyone who says that the opinions they hold are strictly subjective is a liar (or maybe I'm being biased against Vulcans  ).  What I thought would be interesting would be to get a little of why you guys think you are who you are.   Are you a product of just being raised in a particular family, or was there a specific, pivotal event in your life that provides a filter?  

This comes from the health care thread, where I was told that I believe everyone is a victim.  I don't believe that's true, but I do admittedly get very protective of the welfare of the working poor, and it absolutely affects my opinions and positions on subjects like social security and health care.  

A lot of my opinions and perspectives on public service and social welfare programs are based on my experience working within and around many of them.  But I got into that line of work because there was a period of time in between the military and college when I spent what happened to be one of the worst Winters in a long time in Bellingham, WA in a rat infested studio apartment with a communal bathroom.  I had no heat and no oven/range because both were natural gas and I couldn't afford the deposit.  I also didn't have a microwave.  So, I couldn't even eat top raman.   I walked everywhere because I couldn't afford gas or insurance to drive, and was literally making plans for my imminent eviction and homelessness when I finally got work stacking lumber at a cedar finishing plant.  

I have an IQ of around 150.  I'm from a middle class family.  I was (am) neither a drug addict nor an alcoholic, am an honorably discharged veteran and as far as I know, have no mental illness that would preclude me from working.  I was 22, and the only two jobs I'd ever really had at the time were McDonalds and the Air Force, so I didn't have a lot of experience going for me.  I was desperate and it showed in the interviews, and every job I didn't get made it even more likely that I wouldn't get the next one.  

So, in the end, I'd been out of the military for 4 months, had gone from 195 lbs to under 150lbs and I was faced with the prospect that unless I got a job, I'd be homeless.  It was eye opening.  I didn't then, nor do I now, consider myself to be a victim.   I never stopped looking for a job.  I never stopped trying to figure out solutions to my problems.  But I realized then, and have seen over and over, that sometimes s*** happens.  

As I look at things like health care, unemployment, social security, and just about anything else, I am extremely sensitive to the plight of the working poor in our country.   These are people who work, often in multiple jobs, who get paid very little and usually receive ONLY what benefits are required by law.


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## elder999 (Feb 7, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> What I thought would be interesting would be to get a little of why you guys think you are who you are. Are you a product of just being raised in a particular family, or was there a specific, pivotal event in your life that provides a filter?
> .


 

My parents marched on Washington and Selma. My dad was a lifelong Democrat, served on the New York City Civil Rights Commission in the sixties, and, as Senior Protestant Chaplain for the New York State prison system, was a tireless and lifelong advocate for prisoner's rights. My grandmother was the first "woman of color" to graduate from the Hunter College School of Social Work. My granddad went to Columbia, wrote snarky letters to the New York Times in support of civil rights, American Indian causes, and generally liberal-if not leftist- issues. My mom was ridiculously poor growing up, the daughter of a* union* coal miner, who became a nurse, then a shrink.....  

I'm black, Indian,well educated, and upper middle class-if not what many would call "rich."

How can I help but be so biased???:lfao:


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 7, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Everyone's biased.  Anyone who says that the opinions they hold are strictly subjective is a liar (or maybe I'm being biased against Vulcans  ).  What I thought would be interesting would be to get a little of why you guys think you are who you are.   Are you a product of just being raised in a particular family, or was there a specific, pivotal event in your life that provides a filter?



I don't know.  I know that in my family, it was a given that people worked for a living, and that nobody gave anybody anything.



> This comes from the health care thread, where I was told that I believe everyone is a victim.  I don't believe that's true, but I do admittedly get very protective of the welfare of the working poor, and it absolutely affects my opinions and positions on subjects like social security and health care.
> 
> A lot of my opinions and perspectives on public service and social welfare programs are based on my experience working within and around many of them.  But I got into that line of work because there was a period of time in between the military and college when I spent what happened to be one of the worst Winters in a long time in Bellingham, WA in a rat infested studio apartment with a communal bathroom.  I had no heat and no oven/range because both were natural gas and I couldn't afford the deposit.  I also didn't have a microwave.  So, I couldn't even eat top raman.   I walked everywhere because I couldn't afford gas or insurance to drive, and was literally making plans for my imminent eviction and homelessness when I finally got work stacking lumber at a cedar finishing plant.
> 
> I have an IQ of around 150.  I'm from a middle class family.  I was (am) neither a drug addict nor an alcoholic, am an honorably discharged veteran and as far as I know, have no mental illness that would preclude me from working.  I was 22, and the only two jobs I'd ever really had at the time were McDonalds and the Air Force, so I didn't have a lot of experience going for me.  I was desperate and it showed in the interviews, and every job I didn't get made it even more likely that I wouldn't get the next one.



I guess my circumstances were different.  Maybe I was lucky.

I am from a similar background as you.  Raised in the cornfields of Illinois, parents not college graduates, middle-class, not a druggie or a boozer, did the Marine Corps thing twice, and I don't know my IQ score, but I suspect it's way high up there.  I put myself through college after the military - no GI Bill when I was in the service, so I paid with student loans and I am *still* coughing up $400 a month to pay that off at age 49.

But I started working at 13 - my first job I had to file a tax return for, anyway.  Detasseling corn in the summer.  I always had jobs, though.  Mowing lawns, babysitting, delivering newspapers.

By the time I was 15, I had a work permit to allow me to work part time (anything under 40 hours) per week at a gas station as a pump jockey.  I worked summers full time; usually had two jobs; one pumping gas and another cleaning out bars in the early mornings.  I bussed tables at a hotel restaurant.  My dad had two jobs too - he worked in data processing and tended bar at night.  It was pretty much always that way.  It's how I grew up.

By the time I joined the Marines at 18, I had had lots of jobs.  When I got my first security clearance, it was a chore remembering all the places I'd worked and when.  My annual Social Security statement looks like a rap sheet, it dates back to 1973.  When I got out, I immediately got more.  I was a security guard at a hotel, I worked security at an aerospace defense plant.  I was an adult newspaper delivery guy.  I worked for a newspaper in Omaha recruiting and training carriers.  I was an electrician's apprentice until they figured out I was color-blind.  I delivered computer print-outs.  About the only thing I never did was wait tables, but I would have done that too, if that's what had been out there.

I often could not find a single full-time job, so I'd string together part-time jobs and sleep in shifts.  I'd work four hours, sleep two, then work another four hours, sleep four hours, and so on.  It wasn't that hard, I was young and could take it.



> So, in the end, I'd been out of the military for 4 months, had gone from 195 lbs to under 150lbs and I was faced with the prospect that unless I got a job, I'd be homeless.  It was eye opening.  I didn't then, nor do I now, consider myself to be a victim.   I never stopped looking for a job.  I never stopped trying to figure out solutions to my problems.  But I realized then, and have seen over and over, that sometimes s*** happens.



When I needed a job, I just went and got one.  I always assumed I'd be hired - why wouldn't I be?  And I usually was.  I interview well, I'm easy to get along with, I am confident and give that off.



> As I look at things like health care, unemployment, social security, and just about anything else, I am extremely sensitive to the plight of the working poor in our country.   These are people who work, often in multiple jobs, who get paid very little and usually receive ONLY what benefits are required by law.



Eh, I went without health insurance for long periods of time.  My mom talked me into buying private health insurance at one point; it cost half my pay and I nearly could not pay my rent.  Screw that noise, I dropped it.  Eventually I got a full time job with the PD, and I had health insurance again.  Good thing, but I somehow got by when I didn't have insurance.

I've been from the bottom to the top and back again several times now.  I had to start completely over again at age 30, after becoming divorced and losing everything but my car and my cat and my clothes, and I lost the car right after that.  I've had my apartment burglarized when I didn't have two sticks to rub together, lived in a flophouse in downtown Denver and a rented room in Detroit twenty years later.  I've seen my share of problems and sorrows and man, that's just life.

Once in my life I asked for help.  Newly married, we didn't have a dime and we ran out of food.  I asked for food stamps.  We were turned down - we were college students even though it was summer time and it was doubtful we'd be returning in the fall given that we had no money.  Never mind, food stamps are not allowed for college students, even during summer break.  OK, we figured out a way around that - I got a second job and we managed.

I dunno; I would not say my life has been all that hard, but I haven't been given anything, either.  My parents left me nothing, my relatives are as broke as I am.  Life goes on.

I don't have a problem with the working poor; I've been the working poor.  I just never had that much of a problem finding a job of some kind or another.  I knock on wood saying that - anything could happen anytime.  But what do you do?  For every decent person who deserves a helping hand, there are 72 guys who will take and take and take because it's easier to take than to work for a living.  I don't want to support those others, and I don't know how to separate the one from the other.  I'm going to be 50 this year and I have no retirement income set up - a paltry amount in my 401(k) that won't pay for six months' rent in a flophouse.  No children to mooch off of.  I don't know what we'll do; but we'll get by.  Probably work until I die; oh well.  Life goes on until it doesn't.


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## Archangel M (Feb 7, 2011)

I was "working poor" too. While in college, married with one on the way, living on a minimum wage job I depended on public medical programs, food stamps and public assistance. I worked, I got by, I kept "moving up" to better jobs that had insurance and enough pay to pay my own way. I joined the military. I eventually got into law enforcement and have been "moving up" steadily there too. I have no problem with "helping" people in similar circumstances. I do have issues with "helping" people who show no intent of working their damnedest to move up and get off of the public teat.


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## Steve (Feb 7, 2011)

Thanks, guys.  Archangel, I'm right there with you.  

I appreciate the responses.  I do want to say that this isn't my only bias.  I put it out there as an example of a specific bias I have and what I believe is where it comes from. It was a period in my life that shaped a particular view I have.

What I'm hoping to read are some of your own biases and where you think they came from.  The idea is to acknowledge our biases as such.  If nothing else, it would be interesting to know a little about where people are coming from on different topics.    Not just "working poor."  What about health care?  Gun control?  Whatever?  Do you guys all share the same politics as the rest of your family?  If not, why not?  I'm curious.  How did you come to the beliefs you have?

Bill, for what it's worth, I'd had a lot of jobs, too.  But the only "official" job I'd had was at McDs.  I worked there from the time I turned 16 and legally able to apply until I graduated.


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## Archangel M (Feb 7, 2011)

Gun control? Lived in a rural area. Raised shooting and hunting. Never was "afraid" of guns..actually formed some of my strongest memories of "male bonding" and family tradition around hunting. Control criminals with some "common sense" justice vs grabbing law abiding citizens guns.

One sister who is apolitical and another who is an NEA card holding, Tree hugging science teacher, Prius driving liberal..but I love her and we trade barbs about politics but never fight over it. Live and let live.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 7, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> Gun control? Lived in a rural area. Raised shooting and hunting. Never was "afraid" of guns..actually formed some of my strongest memories of "male bonding" and family tradition around hunting. Control criminals with some "common sense" justice vs grabbing law abiding citizens guns.
> 
> One sister who is apolitical and another who is an NEA card holding, Tree hugging science teacher, Prius driving liberal..but I love her and we trade barbs about politics but never fight over it. Live and let live.



I got my first shotgun at age 10. I'm the liberal in my family. They're just right of Atilla the Hun.


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## K-man (Feb 7, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> This comes from the health care thread, where I was told that I believe everyone is a victim. I don't believe that's true, but I do admittedly get very protective of the welfare of the working poor, and it absolutely affects my opinions and positions on subjects like social security and health care.
> 
> A lot of my opinions and perspectives on public service and social welfare programs are based on my experience working within and around many of them. But I got into that line of work because there was a period of time in between the military and college when I spent what happened to be one of the worst Winters in a long time in Bellingham, WA in a rat infested studio apartment with a communal bathroom. I had no heat and no oven/range because both were natural gas and I couldn't afford the deposit. I also didn't have a microwave. So, I couldn't even eat top raman. I walked everywhere because I couldn't afford gas or insurance to drive, and was literally making plans for my imminent eviction and homelessness when I finally got work stacking lumber at a cedar finishing plant.
> 
> As I look at things like health care, unemployment, social security, and just about anything else, I am extremely sensitive to the plight of the working poor in our country. These are people who work, often in multiple jobs, who get paid very little and usually receive ONLY what benefits are required by law.


This is something that people from the outside just can't understand. America is one of the world's richest nations. It holds itself of as the beacon for the free world. People from poorer nations want to get to America because it is the land of opportunity.



> There is very little data about the distribution of wealth in America. There is one source, the Survey of Consumer Finances, sponsored by the Federal Reserve Board, that does provide data from 1983.
> These data suggest that wealth is concentrated in the hands of a small number of families. The wealthiest 1 percent of families owns roughly 34.3% of the nation's net worth, the top 10% of families owns over 71%, and the bottom 40% of the population owns way less than 1%.


Don't you find this is kind of scary?

In other countries some of the wealth at the top is skimmed off to better care for those that are struggling. All these posts show that there are times when you need help but that help is sometimes not available. At the present time we read of all the people losing their homes. How can a country as rich as the US allow this to happen? :asian:


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## elder999 (Feb 7, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> Gun control? Lived in a rural area. Raised shooting and hunting. Never was "afraid" of guns..actually formed some of my strongest memories of "male bonding" and family tradition around hunting. Control criminals with some "common sense" justice vs grabbing law abiding citizens guns.
> 
> One sister who is apolitical and another who is an NEA card holding, Tree hugging science teacher, Prius driving liberal..but I love her and we trade barbs about politics but never fight over it. Live and let live.


 

Mom's dad had to poach in Wyoming, to keep food on the table, sometimes....Mom could never countenance my bringing rabbits home. Dad's dad wrote articles for Field and Stream, they were both heavy on the bird hunting-something I could never really get into-and deer. Dad was totally into pistols.

Dad and his dad were *both* Episcopal priests, and _liberals_-and certified gun nuts.


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## Carol (Feb 7, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> What I'm hoping to read are some of your own biases and where you think they came from.  The idea is to acknowledge our biases as such.  If nothing else, it would be interesting to know a little about where people are coming from on different topics.    Not just "working poor."  What about health care?  Gun control?  Whatever?  Do you guys all share the same politics as the rest of your family?  If not, why not?  I'm curious.  How did you come to the beliefs you have?



My parents weren't much for indoctrination.  She raised my sister and I with the importance of good citizenship, and many current events got discussed, but they were often quiet about what their individual views are.   I think our parents made deliberate efforts to educate us without indoctrinating us.  To this day, my mom won't tell me who she votes for...although I can usually make an inference from dinner table discussions when I visit.

My mom is more liberal than I am.  We definitely have our disagreements.   She loathes guns, I'm a strong supporter.  She is rather quick to make generalizations about types of people that she doesn't like. Recently my mom has begun denigrating Fox News viewers as a whole. When I said "well, I watch Fox News sometimes," she's quick to say "That's different, you know how to form an opinion," (!!)  Ironically enough, sister and brother-in-law are more conservative than I am...my brother-in-law innocently bought her one of Glenn Beck's books for Christmas in December.  Hilarity quickly ensued. :lfao:  I guess I don't have much of an issue with people that have opinions other than mine as long as there's a point where we can agree to disagree.  I've learned a lot from people who think differently than I do but I draw the line at a debate getting personal.


Many of my views have changed over time.  I've been a member of each major party at one time or another (but not at the same time).  I side with the American right on some matters, with the American left on others, but I'm not a particularly good water carrier.  I perceive, think, wonder, analyze, discuss...this has taken my views to different places...and I don't think my journey is anywhere near done.


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## Archangel M (Feb 7, 2011)

K-man said:


> This is something that people from the outside just can't understand. America is one of the world's richest nations. It holds itself of as the beacon for the free world. People from poorer nations want to get to America because it is the land of opportunity.
> 
> 
> Don't you find this is kind of scary?
> ...



Oh there IS help available, but its HELP..it's not designed to allow you to live the lifestyle of the rest of the gainfully (as in make enough to not need it) employed  and it's not meant to be permanent. As to wealth..I see quite a few people here who qualify to be "poor" but still have cars, televisions, video games, computers, cell phones and the like. "Poor" can be a relative term here


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## Blade96 (Feb 7, 2011)

holy smoke giving a ten year old a shotgun :O

Be a long post to explain where all my beliefs came from but most of why i am what i am is because of my experiences in life.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Feb 7, 2011)

Gonna try to parse this down and not make it a life story.

My mother is white and my father is black.  I was raised, I guess you could say lower middle-class, my father a postal clerk and my mother an R.N. (making no where near what she would make today).  Total house hold income by the time I graduated was _maybe _80k a year, I think.  And that's gross income.  I had one brother five years older then me.

I think a lot of my perspective comes from the fact that my brother and I are so different.  Starting in school, he never fully utilized the gifts that he had.  We would be in a checkout line at a store and he would add up the cost of the groceries faster then the cash register (before the days of digital).  And yet, he got kicked out of school, sent to another state to go to school so he would stay out of trouble, went into the Navy and did nothing, has two children who he never sees, is years in arreage on his child support, and only comes around if he wants something, even if it's only to use my PS3.  

I used his example to not be him.  I was studious in school, stayed out of trouble, to include never having even experimented with illegal drugs, had sex only once before I was 20 years old, did not get anyone pregnant until I was married, and now am a police sergeant.

My mother, in the traditional wifely ways, never talked about politics or religion, though she is Christian and I attended Lutheran schools up through high school.  My father is a liberal who loves Keith Olberman.  I am a conservative.  Neither my father nor I trust the government in general, but for entirely different reasons.

Back to my brother, however, I find it interesting that two people can come from the same background, but turn out so different.  The only thing, as I am not a genetic scientist or anything like that, for which I can explain the differences between us is our wills.  He could have chosen to be a better person, but he didn't.  He could still choose to do so, but he doesn't.  I, on the other hand, have been told by an excellent psychiatrist that one of my problems is that I don't know how to relax because I am always thinking about how to do something better.  

That is my bias.  I know that there are individual circumstances which, through no active part of their own, are beyond their control.  I feel for them, and would do whatever I can for them.  But after a certain point in life, it is mostly up to you, and those around you who care, to help you make your life better.  It is ridiculous, in my opinion, to force others to do for you what you don't want to do for yourself.  And for those people that do, they tend to view themselves as victims.

My grandmother was the first black teacher in her school district.  This was during the late fifities, early sixties, in a city in Ohio which was heavily racist.  But instead of complaining, she went to school and got her Master's degree, knowing that the district requirement of a Bachelor's degree would not be enough to get her in.  She kept her family together through many struggles.  I just don't think that, in America today, there are too many legitimate excuses.


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## Blade96 (Feb 8, 2011)

Thats a good story, Kenpo.  _I mean - i feel sorry for your brother. But i mean its good in the sense that free will has a part to play in stuff too, not that its 'good' what happened. Dont want people to misunderstand me._


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 8, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> holy smoke giving a ten year old a shotgun :O



It was normal where I came from.  I hunted pheasant and rabbit with my dad from a very early age.  It was a .410 single-shot shotgun.  I kept it with the shells in my bedroom closet.  Here I am nearly 50 - never shot anyone accidentally.  Never had an 'accidental discharge'.  Never felt the gun calling me to murder people.  I know, it's impossible; some of my wife's family member's have insisted that sooner or later, I'll get mad about some tiny thing and go on a killing rampage because I have easy access to firearms.


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## Steve (Feb 8, 2011)

Another bias I have is very pro-veteran.  I'm proud of the service my family's had over the years.  My dad and mom are both vets, as are all three of my brothers.  Between the 6 of us, we've been in or around every combat theater since Korea.  My Great Uncle Vernon was awarded a Distinguished Service Cross and a Croix de Guerre, and in my direct line we've got vets back to Gettysburg and marching with General Sherman on Atlanta.   We have a prominent wall in my house with portraits and pictures of family members in uniform.  

We have so many vets in my family that, while I'm VERY pro-vet in many ways, I'm also not inclined to consider veterans as above reproach.  Where issues are related to veterans benefits (particularly disabled vets), I don't believe that it's moral to pinch pennies.  But at the same time, there's a trend in our country right now to use the term "veteran" as a synonym for "hero."  I don't know that I agree.  There are scumbags in the military, and cowards, too.  

I hope that makes sense.  Basically, I just don't give someone a free pass because he or she is a veteran.  It's just one part of the whole.


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## Archangel M (Feb 8, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Another bias I have is very pro-veteran. I'm proud of the service my family's had over the years. My dad and mom are both vets, as are all three of my brothers. Between the 6 of us, we've been in or around every combat theater since Korea. My Great Uncle Vernon was awarded a Distinguished Service Cross and a Croix de Guerre, and in my direct line we've got vets back to Gettysburg and marching with General Sherman on Atlanta. We have a prominent wall in my house with portraits and pictures of family members in uniform.
> 
> We have so many vets in my family that, while I'm VERY pro-vet in many ways, I'm also not inclined to consider veterans as above reproach. Where issues are related to veterans benefits (particularly disabled vets), I don't believe that it's moral to pinch pennies. But at the same time, there's a trend in our country right now to use the term "veteran" as a synonym for "hero." I don't know that I agree. There are scumbags in the military, and cowards, too.
> 
> I hope that makes sense. Basically, I just don't give someone a free pass because he or she is a veteran. It's just one part of the whole.


 
I agree. But I have to say that I do give the Vet more of a "benefit of the doubt". Not a "free pass" by any means and I have given some lectures to Vets who have tried to use their status to influence my professional decisions...but I do grant them some courtesy in light of their service.


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## Tez3 (Feb 8, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Another bias I have is very pro-veteran. I'm proud of the service my family's had over the years. My dad and mom are both vets, as are all three of my brothers. Between the 6 of us, we've been in or around every combat theater since Korea. *My Great Uncle Vernon was awarded a* Distinguished Service Cross and a *Croix de Guerre,* and in my direct line we've got vets back to Gettysburg and marching with General Sherman on Atlanta. We have a prominent wall in my house with portraits and pictures of family members in uniform.
> 
> We have so many vets in my family that, while I'm VERY pro-vet in many ways, I'm also not inclined to consider veterans as above reproach. Where issues are related to veterans benefits (particularly disabled vets), I don't believe that it's moral to pinch pennies. But at the same time, there's a trend in our country right now to use the term "veteran" as a synonym for "hero." I don't know that I agree. There are scumbags in the military, and cowards, too.
> 
> I hope that makes sense. Basically, I just don't give someone a free pass because he or she is a veteran. It's just one part of the whole.


 
Now that you will have to tell us more about sometime!

Bill, if your in-laws insist you are going to go on the rampage with your shot gun do they realise then how much they annoy you?  

One of my shift partners insists he's not baised because he hates everyone the same.


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## Steve (Feb 8, 2011)

Archangel, I do, too.  I definitely give vets the benefit of the doubt.   I do not, however, presume that someone is a hero just because they were in the military.  I'm certainly not a hero and it would diminish the actions of true heroes if I claimed to be in their company.  

But, if nothing else, military service demonstrates at least some sense of a calling greater than oneself.  We don't push the military at all on our kids, but still couldn't have been prouder when my son told me he was joining the Marine JROTC at his high school.  He's on the armed drill squad, and I have to say, he's a handsome young man in his uniform!   While I do hope he joins the military, I'm hoping he'll be smart and go to college first and accept a commission.  



Tez3 said:


> Now that you will have to tell us more about sometime!


In WWI, near Bantheville, France, he led his platoon in advance of his battalion to capture two enemy machine gun nests.  He was wounded early, but continued to lead his men until the machine gun nests were captured and the battalion could continue its advance.  He was Legion of Honor, as well.  Very neat story. 

Here's a pic.  If I'm not mistaken, the ribbons on top are in order DSC, Croixe de Guerre and then Legion of Honor:


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## Tez3 (Feb 8, 2011)

Thanks Steve! worth recounting and well worth remembering.


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## WC_lun (Feb 8, 2011)

I was raised  in a fairly conservative upper poor to lower middle class family.  There were some years I was in school that the government paid for breakfast and school lunches.  I started work when I was 14.  I paid for my food, clothes, and a car to keep working.  I couldn't afford college until I was 21, but then I did well even while working.  At 22 I had a catastrophic illness.  I worked 4 days a week at a crummy job and had dialysis treatments the other 3 days a week.  I did this for 6 years.  In that six years there were days were I had to decide between paying bills or eating.  Too many times I chose to pay bills and it took a greater toll on my health. This is were many of my views on things such as politics and health care some from.

I have no problems with people who view the world differently than I do.  I know that unless they have gone through the things i have gone through, people will not see the world from the same perspective as I do.  I think for a society it is a good thing to have all different perspectives.  I only get irritated when people have no compassion for others or they lie to support thier own beliefs ...or denigrate others beliefs.


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## Blade96 (Feb 8, 2011)

i appreciate vets (the animal doctors and the soldiers) because I have had pets and I did a major in history at university so i grew to appreciate all they do for us and for our furry friends. A vet saved my cats life when he was almost 9 when both his kidneys shut down. He lived to be 15. And vets (the soldiers) saved us people over the centuries from various bad things.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 8, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Bill, if your in-laws insist you are going to go on the rampage with your shot gun do they realise then how much they annoy you?



My in-laws don't annoy me; I actually love them very much.  They were just here, as you know, due to a serious family matter.  The funny thing is, they forgot all about the gun thing when they found out I was once a skyclad pagan, skipping merrily through the woods.  That blew their minds to such an extent that they forgot all about the guns, tattoos, military background, and conservative mindset.  I'm full of contradictions, makes me laugh when others jaws' drop.  'Tis an ill wind that blows no minds...


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 8, 2011)

WC_lun said:


> I have no problems with people who view the world differently than I do.  I know that unless they have gone through the things i have gone through, people will not see the world from the same perspective as I do.



What's interesting to me is that sometimes people have the same or very similar backgrounds, and it shapes them in very different ways, and you have to wonder why one person is broken by an event, another is made stronger by it; why one sees themselves as a life-long victim and other other always assumes they will survive and thrive?  And not just the extremes of good and bad, but everything in between.  To hear one of my sisters tell it, we had a miserable childhood and life was very unfair to us.  I was there; it didn't seem that way to me.  And I don't recall her being miserable at the time.  That's something I've never understood.


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## Empty Hands (Feb 8, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> What's interesting to me is that sometimes people have the same or very similar backgrounds, and it shapes them in very different ways, and you have to wonder why one person is broken by an event, another is made stronger by it; why one sees themselves as a life-long victim and other other always assumes they will survive and thrive?



Genetics and inborn (or at least involuntary) temperament matter a lot more than most people are probably comfortable with.  We like to believe that we are in control, of our feelings and beliefs most of all, and yet to a large extent we are not.

Separated identical twin studies show this quite remarkably.  Identical twins that were separated at birth, with no knowledge of each other and with different environments, can turn out remarkably similarly.  They tend to marry similar spouses in terms of looks and temperament, sometimes even with the same name.  They tend to have the same outlook and political beliefs.  They even tend to dress the same.

Our genes shape our thoughts and beliefs to a large extent.


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## elder999 (Feb 8, 2011)

First, some thread drift...



Empty Hands said:


> Separated identical twin studies show this quite remarkably. Identical twins that were separated at birth, with no knowledge of each other and with different environments, can turn out remarkably similarly. They tend to marry similar spouses in terms of looks and temperament, sometimes even with the same name. They tend to have the same outlook and political beliefs. They even tend to dress the same.
> 
> Our genes shape our thoughts and beliefs to a large extent.


 
Back in the 80's...as in waay back in the beginning of them, I returned to college on Long Island. There was a story on the news about a guy who had transferred to Hofstra, and people kept calling him by another name-thinking he was this other guy, then getting mad at him when he insisted that he wasn't. Until one of them bothered to ask the guy if he was adopted, found out he was, and promptly said,"_I think you have a twin._"

So there they were on the news, and in the papers,these two identical twins, raised miles apart, who liked the same music, food, brand of cigarettes, booze, and _had the same major, in restaurant management_-chunky guys with curly hair, singing some James Taylor song pretty well, about as happy as I've ever seen anyone.

Next day, they were back on the news, and in the papers. Turns out, the twins had a twin-that is to say, they were triplets-who liked the same music, food, brand of cigarettes, booze, and _had the same major, in restaurant management._-chunky guys with curly hair, singing some James Taylor song pretty well, about as happy as I've ever seen anyone.


Don't believe me? Here ya go.

And I think you can still eat at their restaurant, _Triplet's Roumanian Steakhouse_,on Grand St. in Manhattan-my old neighborhood.....

Of course, they grew up mere miles apart, and that could account for the taste in music, food, cigarettes and booze. Especially the cigarettes, I guess, but the same major?


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## Empty Hands (Feb 8, 2011)

elder999 said:


> First, some thread drift...



Fascinating, and a good illustration of what I was talking about.  

What's also interesting to me is that the heritability (the fraction due to genetics) of some traits changes with time.  For instance, the heritability of IQ is higher in adults than in the young - environment matters more for the young, which makes sense considering that is a critical development time for the brain.  The interactions are complex, but what is for certain is that we are not the _tabula rasa _- a philosophical idea that is a big part of how we look at thought and personality in the West.


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## WC_lun (Feb 8, 2011)

I once read a book on Taoism that said the person we are now is made up of three equal parts; our enviroment, our genetics, and our inner self.  I can't really argue with that line of thinking.


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## girlbug2 (Feb 8, 2011)

I had this huge, detailed post typed and ready when I lost internet connection:shock:.
What I said in a nutshell, is that I and my two sisters were raised in the same environment: WASP-y conservative middle class. Our dad came from a blue collar family and put himself through college with his own hard earned money, so we were taught to earn everything for ourselves, never live on credit, and save our money. Myself and one other sister followed suit with the parents' values, but the youngest went in the opposite direction to become quite liberal, debt-ridden and living on loans of one type or another. 

Who knows, but that she inherited just the right combination of genes to deviate from the "norm" she was raised with. Environment is important I think but not the end-all.


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## Empty Hands (Feb 8, 2011)

WC_lun said:


> I once read a book on Taoism that said the person we are now is made up of three equal parts; our enviroment, our genetics, and our inner self.  I can't really argue with that line of thinking.



I would argue that the inner self (the mind) is itself a product of genetics and environment.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 8, 2011)

Quite so, Bug.  From my own life, I am the oldest of three.  I have two sisters.  The middle one, I think, is like me.  Yet everyone else insists that it is my little sister and I that are very similar in our natures.

One thing is for certain, we all had the same 'dirt poor' start in life.  The odd thing is that my middle sibling is a 'credit hog', forever living on debt whilst I and my little sister are frugal.  

Neither of us will borrow money (if we don't have the cash then we don't buy it kind of attitude), tho' both of us will lend money rather foolishly (I've seen the back of thousands that way in 'loans' to friends ).

So how can it be that we all have the same genetic stock and all have the same environment and nurture yet have two distinct outcomes?


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 8, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> tho' both of us will lend money rather foolishly (I've seen the back of thousands that way in 'loans' to friends )


 
Sorry Mark, what part of England did you say you live in again.....? :angel:


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Feb 8, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> I would argue that the inner self (the mind) is itself a product of genetics and environment.


 
And that, I believe, is why you think as you do regarding politics.  This is not a dig, mind you, but an example of the fundamental difference in our viewpoints that so shape many  of our disagreements.

The two things that you mention are beyond the control of the individual.  Therefore, the person, through no fault of their own, essentially becomes a victim of circumstance.  The responsibily is then placed on other people, and not on the individual themselves.  They become a perpetual victim.  Therefore, those of us who were genetically and environmentally "lucky" have a moral responsibility to do what we can to help those people out, _even if we need to be forced to do so._

What if find further interesting is that, often, people who think as you do make moral judgements about others with whom they disagree.  How could you, it's not their fault.  It is the fault of the environment and genetics.  They are to be pitied, not scorned.

To be sure, I do think that these things do play a role.  I just think that the extent to which they play are significantly less then you do.


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## Steve (Feb 8, 2011)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> And that, I believe, is why you think as you do regarding politics.  This is not a dig, mind you, but an example of the fundamental difference in our viewpoints that so shape many  of our disagreements.
> 
> The two things that you mention are beyond the control of the individual.  Therefore, the person, through no fault of their own, essentially becomes a victim of circumstance.  The responsibily is then placed on other people, and not on the individual themselves.  They become a perpetual victim.  Therefore, those of us who were genetically and environmentally "lucky" have a moral responsibility to do what we can to help those people out, _even if we need to be forced to do so._
> 
> ...


This is a very interesting post.  I've never thought about nature vs nurture quite like this.  I'm not sure I buy it, but it's very interesting.  I think I'm kind of in the middle on this one.  What I mean is, having had three kids, all completely different, I believe that there are inherent differences between one person and the next... temperament, inner self.. whatever you might call it.  And this will shape how a person reacts to things that happen in their lives.  But morals are taught.  Morality is learned.  I believe that absolutely. We are taught what is right and what is wrong.  How we react to it is "inner self."  

What we are born with are traits.  Like stubbornness, competitiveness, intelligence or sensitivity.  How we react to things that happen will shape us.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Feb 8, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> This is a very interesting post. I've never thought about nature vs nurture quite like this. I'm not sure I buy it, but it's very interesting. I think I'm kind of in the middle on this one. What I mean is, having had three kids, all completely different, I believe that there are inherent differences between one person and the next... temperament, inner self.. whatever you might call it. And this will shape how a person reacts to things that happen in their lives. But morals are taught. Morality is learned. I believe that absolutely. We are taught what is right and what is wrong. How we react to it is "inner self."
> 
> What we are born with are traits. Like stubbornness, competitiveness, intelligence or sensitivity. How we react to things that happen will shape us.


 
I'm in the middle as well.  Like I said, I do think that they play a part.  One key trait though is that people can learn and improve their lot.  In the past, I can see how the opportunities would be limited.  But in today's age, after a certain point, there is just very little that amounts to a legitimate excuse, in my mind.

But let's take the argument one step further.  Morality is taught.  If someone is given a messed up moral compass, then it is not their fault, is it.  It is their environment that taught them how to behave this way.  This would have nothing to do with a person's "inner self".  

I, for one, see the "inner self" as being more then physical.  That's my bias.  I don't believe that humans are ultimately limited by our physical bodies and all it mechanisms.  The inner self that I refer to would often be of a spiritual sort.  A soul if you will.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 9, 2011)

Me?  For a long time I didn't care and had no real opinions one way or the other.  Politics and taxes and welfare and what have you made no difference to me.  

When I was 13 I started working, a 5 day a week paper route AND caddying on the weekends.  I wanted stuff.  My parents were lower middle class enough that tho they tried to spoil me, I had to do for myself if I wanted more than 1 new Atari cartridge a year... so I learned early the value of having a work ethic.  I think this is part of why I don't necessarily believe in handouts.  After I grew up and was on my own, and when I was having a tough time making ends meet, I was working three jobs, sleeping maybe 2 - 3 hours a day.  Bills to pay.  I tried to get unemployment once... was turned down because my former employer lied... and I said never again.  I found there was always money to be made, if I didn't do what I was "trained to do" and instead did what was available.  It made living hard, but I've gotten by thus far.  Sure, I worked the door of a ****** bar, and mowed lawns with a bunch of day laborers, or hung TVs and strung cable in lazy rich *******s homes.  Whatever.  

There was a point tho, I started seeing some really disturbing (to my mind) ****... one of my three jobs at that time was working 3rd shift in a hole-in-the-wall gas station near a large section 8 housing project.  I would see women come in driving cars nicer than anything I could afford and load up on crap they paid for with their food stamps, their kids playing on a pokemon gold game boy color... and I was just like WTF? Hell, I see various issues like this all the time, just the other day I saw news footage of a woman crying about how she was going to lose her heating subsidy and she didnt know how she could pay to heat her house without the handout... something I could feel sorry for, IF SHE WASN'T STANDING IN FRONT OF A GODDAM 50" PLASMA TV AND HAD AN XBOX360 NEXT TO IT... ****! If she sold them, she could pay her heating for 1/2 the year without that goddamn subsidy.  Suck it up!  I sold my prized possession, a fairly expensive one of a kind hand made Katana so I could pay my bills.  No sympathy from me on that one... I was probably in my mid to late 20's tho before i really started to think about these things.

My folks both got sick (Lung Cancer and Pancreatic cancer) close to the same time... so I moved out of my apartment bought a house 2 streets down from their place to help take care of my mom who had to quit working.  Their neighborhood was primarily Hispanic, and full of Hispanic Street gangs and the subsequent drug and gang crime. There was no sense of community, if somthing happened no one wanted to talk to the police because most of the neighbors were illegal and afraid to talk to them... I started seeing this as a real problem... a few years later a friend of mine was killed by a drunk driver, who happened to be an illegal alien driving with no licence and no insurance.  When he got out on bail, he vanished, my guess is back to Mexico and the family was left holding the bag... couldn't even sue the ****.  Same thing happened a year or two ago to a friend of mine on his motorcycle.  People argue that "They are only coming here to better themselves" which may be true, but it feels to me like they are damaging the fabric of society by failing to integrate.  The neighborhoods go downhill because they are afraid to work with the police to control the crime, they live 5 or 6 families to a house, and as a result I keep seeing new code put into law to try and curb that type of thing that winds up impacting me... (most recently the City Code about Driveways and parking) etc... Most of that experience from moving into that neigborhood is what has soured me on the illegal immigration issue, and why I think we need immigration reform so badly. 

That's the two big ones for me: I work for my money... I shouldn't have to give it to someone who can't or wont, and Ive seen wayyyy too much abuse of the system to care as much as I should for the people who might really need it.   And because of the lack of "society" and community ties I have seen because of the large population of Illegal Aliens in my area, (or have perceived, take your pick) I really believe we need to both Crack down on Illegals, and make it much easier for the immigrants who want to be here to do so legally. 

The only other thing is the second Amendment, but that goes to both Constitutional Rights, and (IMHO) common sense.


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## Empty Hands (Feb 9, 2011)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> To be sure, I do think that these things do play a role.  I just think that the extent to which they play are significantly less then you do.



Where's your data then?  There is plenty out there on the heritability of various traits, and plenty of proof that shows that the "inner mind" is not at all independent of biology and outside influences.

That is why a brain injury can change someone's personality.

It's easy to "think differently", but I would like to see some data.

As to your extended point, I do not disclaim all responsibility for one's actions.  Explanation and understanding is not exculpation.  Our daily experiences are indistinguishable from "free will", no matter the influences, thus it makes sense to treat people as autonomous and responsible.  To some greater or smaller degree they are.

To some degree they are not however, to which the proof is ironclad - and often ignored.

ETA: I called myself a conservative and voted for Republicans until 2005.  Don't be too quick to tie "my beliefs" into a scientific view of the world.  My scientific view of the world never changed, but my beliefs did.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 9, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> Sorry Mark, what part of England did you say you live in again.....? :angel:



Erm ... well ... I didn't ... {scurries to profile to delete information :lol:}.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 9, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> That is why a brain injury can change someone's personality.



Very true - it happened to me most dramatically.  It took my old friends years to adjust to the 'new' argumentative and emotional 'me'.  The Star Trek analogy I always use is that I went from being a Vulcan to being a Romulan.

EDIT:  For those that wonder what I'm on about, I had a near-fatal bike accident a couple of decades ago and suffered significant brain trauma (thankfully the impacts were cushioned somewhat by my helmet or I wouldn't be here).


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## Empty Hands (Feb 9, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> Very true - it happened to me most dramatically.  It took my old friends years to adjust to the 'new' argumentative and emotional 'me'.  The Star Trek analogy I always use is that I went from being a Vulcan to being a Romulan.



Glad you made it, belated by decades.   Dramatic as the change was though, I'm guessing you still felt like the same old "you."  In the case of Phineas Gage the railroad worker, his brain injury turned him from a quiet, prudent gentle man to an angry man who liked to fight and squander his money gambling.  Our personalities and thoughts come from our brain.  Our brain is a biological structure that is the product of the interaction of genes and environment.

This is not about ideology or belief.  This is what the evidence shows.


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## Nomad (Feb 9, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> I would argue that the inner self (the mind) is itself a product of genetics and environment.



Personally, I'd add one's choices to the list of what makes up the inner self.  Certainly one could argue that choices made can be biased by both genetics and environment, but I for one believe strongly in free will, and that the choices we make (good and bad) play a large role in determining who we are.


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## Archangel M (Feb 9, 2011)

Nomad said:


> Personally, I'd add one's choices to the list of what makes up the inner self.  Certainly one could argue that choices made can be biased by both genetics and environment, but I for one believe strongly in free will, and that the choices we make (good and bad) play a large role in determining who we are.



I agree...we are the sum of our choices.


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## Nomad (Feb 9, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> Glad you made it, belated by decades.   Dramatic as the change was though, I'm guessing you still felt like the same old "you."  In the case of Phineas Gage the railroad worker, his brain injury turned him from a quiet, prudent gentle man to an angry man who liked to fight and squander his money gambling.  Our personalities and thoughts come from our brain.  Our brain is a biological structure that is the product of the interaction of genes and environment.
> 
> This is not about ideology or belief.  This is what the evidence shows.



While this is true, there is also plenty of evidence of feedback loops.  What you do, especially with plenty of repetition, becomes a part of you, and can rewire brain connections, making some channels stronger over time.  I believe that thoughts and conscious choices work in a similar fashion, creating patterns.  This is easily seen in people that go from one abusive relationship to another, or in many kids, who, when told often enough how worthless they are, see themselves as worthless.  Of course, the reverse can also be done, where you can teach healthy connections and patterns by reinforcing positive behavior.  

It's a combination of all of the above, IMO.


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## Empty Hands (Feb 9, 2011)

Nomad said:


> While this is true, there is also plenty of evidence of feedback loops.  What you do, especially with plenty of repetition, becomes a part of you, and can rewire brain connections, making some channels stronger over time.  I believe that thoughts and conscious choices work in a similar fashion, creating patterns.



But those thoughts and choices are themselves shaped by hardwired patterns and tendencies.  You face a choice: risky option or safe option, which do you go with?  Well, we know that risk tolerance or risk seeking is an innate trait, and that will influence all future decisions.  Same with traits like sociability or novelty-seeking, which will again influence your decisions.

I do believe there is something approaching free will, but I also think it is wrong to separate our mind from our biology.  There is no independent, aphysical logic machine housed in your brain which can make decisions free from influence.  Your decisions are shaped in part by your biology.  Even consciousness itself is not the unitary experience we think it is, it is multiple independent processes that are welded together by our brain to present a convenient interface.  This is shown by conditions like prosopagnosia, where faces can be described, but have difficulty being recognized, even with close family.  Or the condition (can't remember name) where the individual can clearly describe what a square is, but when they try to draw one, a circle comes out every time.  If our minds were separate from our brains, these conditions would not exist.

It all feeds together in a complex way, and cannot be separated.


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## Archangel M (Feb 9, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> Our personalities and thoughts come from our brain.  Our brain is a biological structure that is the product of the interaction of genes and environment.
> 
> This is not about ideology or belief.  This is what the evidence shows.





http://uk.reuters.com/article/2007/07/20/oukoe-uk-brain-tiny-idUKN1930510020070720


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## Empty Hands (Feb 9, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> http://uk.reuters.com/article/2007/07/20/oukoe-uk-brain-tiny-idUKN1930510020070720



"If something happens very slowly over quite some time, maybe over decades, the different parts of the brain take up functions that would normally be done by the part that is pushed to the side," added Muenke, who was not involved in the case.

While truly remarkable, that case does not disprove my point.  Otherwise, Terri Schiavo, who had more tissue volume than this man, would have been walking and talking instead of vegetating.  Strokes would have no effect on anyone.  Brain injuries would not change behaviors and personalities.  And so forth.


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## Archangel M (Feb 9, 2011)

[yt]HLmN5Bg8nHI[/yt]

Philosophy of Mind


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## Archangel M (Feb 9, 2011)

_People in the world cannot identify their own mind. They believe that what they see, or hear, or feel, or know, is mind. They are blocked, and so cannot see the brilliant spirit of their original mind._-Huang-po.

...

_Not thinking of good, not thinking of evil - tell me, what was your original face before your mother and father were born?_-Zen Koan.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 9, 2011)

Some research that I found fascinating, especially as it shed light on some symptoms that I suffer from my bike accident, is that each hemisphere of your brain has it's own consciousness.

Sounds a bit weird and creepy but it seems that even in our own heads we are a committee .

My accident damaged the interface between the hemispheres of my brain and when I get over tired (or too tipsy) there is a tendency for the usually less dominant side to steal the reins - it's very odd and hard to describe because it's still 'me' but (all too often) not behaving in a fashion "I" approve of :lol:.  It's akin to the normal dis-inhibiting effects of over-indulging but not really the same.


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## Nomad (Feb 9, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> But those thoughts and choices are themselves shaped by hardwired patterns and tendencies.  You face a choice: risky option or safe option, which do you go with?  Well, we know that risk tolerance or risk seeking is an innate trait, and that will influence all future decisions.  Same with traits like sociability or novelty-seeking, which will again influence your decisions.
> 
> I do believe there is something approaching free will, but I also think it is wrong to separate our mind from our biology.  There is no independent, aphysical logic machine housed in your brain which can make decisions free from influence.  Your decisions are shaped in part by your biology.  Even consciousness itself is not the unitary experience we think it is, it is multiple independent processes that are welded together by our brain to present a convenient interface.  This is shown by conditions like prosopagnosia, where faces can be described, but have difficulty being recognized, even with close family.  Or the condition (can't remember name) where the individual can clearly describe what a square is, but when they try to draw one, a circle comes out every time.  If our minds were separate from our brains, these conditions would not exist.
> 
> It all feeds together in a complex way, and cannot be separated.



We also have the ability to go against our nature; recognize a pattern and choose deliberately to go outside of it, for better or worse.  Many people never make that leap, but I know several that have as well, and have created real and lasting changes in themselves by effectively denying or redirecting their innate urges.

I'm saying exactly the same thing from the other side of the coin.  Yes, it all feeds together in a complex way that is difficult to separate.  Yes, thoughts and choices can be guided by biology and genetics, but on the flipside, thoughts and choices can also directly influence and alter the biology itself.  It's a subtle process, and obviously much more difficult to define than a traumatic brain injury which changes personality, but the feedback loops are there, and can be utilized.

This is the basis for the concept that if you're nervous, but project and "fake" confidence instead, eventually the confidence becomes real.  You form new mental pathways through conscious mimicry until they are established and "become" the trait itself.


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## Empty Hands (Feb 9, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> _People in the world cannot identify their own mind. They believe that what they see, or hear, or feel, or know, is mind. They are blocked, and so cannot see the brilliant spirit of their original mind._-Huang-po.



Why do you believe in a non-physical mind?  What evidence can you point to that validates your beliefs?  How do you explain physical changes (i.e. trauma) that affect the mind?  Assuming you are correct, what sort of evidence could we look for that validates your belief?


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## Flying Crane (Feb 9, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> Some research that I found fascinating, especially as it shed light on some symptoms that I suffer from my bike accident, is that each hemisphere of your brain has it's own consciousness.
> 
> Sounds a bit weird and creepy but it seems that even in our own heads we are a committee .
> 
> My accident damaged the interface between the hemispheres of my brain and when I get over tired (or too tipsy) there is a tendency for the usually less dominant side to steal the reins - it's very odd and hard to describe because it's still 'me' but (all too often) not behaving in a fashion "I" approve of :lol:. It's akin to the normal dis-inhibiting effects of over-indulging but not really the same.


 
Interesting, Mark.

I don't know if my comments are really relevant, but when I was about 3 years old I was quite the little monkey.  Always climbing on stuff.  I wandered over to the neighbors yard and started climbing a tree.  The branch I was holding broke and I fell out of the tree, I suspect not more than 5 feet, but it knocked me cold.  My brother, one year older than I am, thought I had died and ran home in a panic.  I ended up spending the night in the hospital, and recovered seemingly none the worse for wear.

I have my own demons.  Minor stuff, but it's there and I fight it from time to time.  bad habits, behavior that has the potential to be sort of self-destructive if I don't keep it under control.  I sometimes wonder if that knock on the head at such a young age had anything to do with my personality as I grew older.  Maybe if that accident had not happened I might be a different person today.  Or not.  I really have no idea but it's an interesting item to ponder at times.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Feb 9, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> Where's your data then? There is plenty out there on the heritability of various traits, and plenty of proof that shows that the "inner mind" is not at all independent of biology and outside influences.


 
With all due respect, I don't need proof.  This discussion is ostensibly not about proving anything to anyone, but rather for each of us to come to some understanding about each other's perspective.  



> It's easy to "think differently", but I would like to see some data.


 
Not so easy to think differently.  But think differently I do.  Can I give you scientific proof.  Nope, not at all.  All I would be able to give you is personal experience.  It wouldn't satisfy your inquiry, so I won't bore you with it. 



> As to your extended point, I do not disclaim all responsibility for one's actions. Explanation and understanding is not exculpation. Our daily experiences are indistinguishable from "free will", no matter the influences, thus it makes sense to treat people as autonomous and responsible. To some greater or smaller degree they are.
> 
> To some degree they are not however, to which the proof is ironclad - and often ignored.


 
You seem to be talking about the practical effects.  That I get.  I am more referring to the philosophical ones.  How can one be truly responsible for one's actions if it is essentially "pre-determined" by genetics and environment.  Which is why I don't really understand, when someone who believes as you do, why you would get so indignant about certain actions that people take.  You have rationally come to the understanding that for all intents and purposes, it's not their fault.  

That doesn't mean that we as a society don't do something about it.  But, and this may not go for you personally, people who I have seen who think as you do get so offended by certain actions, while at the same time philosophically absolving them of any ultimate  responsibility because it is the fault of genetics and environment.  What's to get offended about.  It's not their fault.

For instance, if I were to hurt someone that you cared about, although you might believe for the good of society I should be inprisoned, from what perspective would you really have to make a personal judgment about me?  I go back to the Vulcan analogy that I used in another thread.



> ETA: I called myself a conservative and voted for Republicans until 2005. Don't be too quick to tie "my beliefs" into a scientific view of the world. My scientific view of the world never changed, but my beliefs did.


 
I'm not quite sure what you mean here.


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## Empty Hands (Feb 10, 2011)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> Not so easy to think differently.  But think differently I do.  Can I give you scientific proof.  Nope, not at all.  All I would be able to give you is personal experience.  It wouldn't satisfy your inquiry, so I won't bore you with it.



And yet I can give you scientific proof that suggests the opposite of what you believe.  When confronted with two hypotheses, one which has proof and one which does not, why would you ever choose to believe the one with no proof against the one that did?  Your personal experiences are subject to well known biases, which is why we have all the scientific tools we do.  My personal experience suggests that the Sun revolves around a flat Earth or that light travels instantaneously, which we all know is not true.  Why privilege these particular personal experiences against the scientific data?  Because you want them to be true?  It fits your religious beliefs?  Not good enough.



5-0 Kenpo said:


> How can one be truly responsible for one's actions if it is essentially "pre-determined" by genetics and environment.  Which is why I don't really understand, when someone who believes as you do, why you would get so indignant about certain actions that people take.  You have rationally come to the understanding that for all intents and purposes, it's not their fault.


 
Again, this is not about belief, no more than I "believe" in the existence of DNA or protons.  However, I don't believe in determinism, so your argument is misplaced.  We exist on a continuum between disembodied logic machines without influences and hardwired computer programs.  Where on that continuum I can't say because there is not enough data to say.  However, we are clearly closer to that hardwired program than most people are comfortable with.



5-0 Kenpo said:


> I'm not quite sure what you mean here.



You said that my politics followed from my understanding of the human mind.  My point was that my politics have changed while my view of the mind has not.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Feb 11, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> And yet I can give you scientific proof that *suggests* the opposite of what you believe.


 
That is the key word.



> When confronted with two hypotheses, one which has proof and one which does not, why would you ever choose to believe the one with no proof against the one that did?


 
Because there is enough lack of information in science that allows my biases to fit in. Not only that, but I don't necessarily believe that, in this instance, the two have to be mutually exclusive.



> Your personal experiences are subject to well known biases, which is why we have all the scientific tools we do. My personal experience suggests that the Sun revolves around a flat Earth or that light travels instantaneously, which we all know is not true.


 
But we only know it's not true because we have "experienced" a scientific experiment. So once again, it still comes down to experience.



> Why privilege these particular personal experiences against the scientific data? Because you want them to be true? It fits your religious beliefs? Not good enough.


 
Not good enough for you, but it is for me. I'm not trying to convince you. I'm merely explaining my position to you. But that is not to say that my belief, in God for instance, is based merely on personal experience, but logically deductive based on my knowledge of current scientific understanding. 

And, quite frankly, I have not seen any evidence that disproves what I believe. Again, there is a lack of information in science that allows what I believe to still be true.

However, it all has the ability to come down on whichever scientific hypothesis you understand to be more likely then not, so it would be an unproductive position to argue.



> Again, this is not about belief, no more than I "believe" in the existence of DNA or protons. However, I don't believe in determinism, so your argument is misplaced. We exist on a continuum between disembodied logic machines without influences and hardwired computer programs. Where on that continuum I can't say because there is not enough data to say. However, we are clearly closer to that hardwired program than most people are comfortable with.


 
What is a disembodied logic machine? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the concept, but you earlier asked the question, "Why do you believe in the non-physical mind?" What would make something "disembodied" in the context of the mind? 

How can the human mind have a "section" that is free from influence. Even our ability to understand logic is based on genetic and environmental influences though, isn't it?  So doesn't your argument end up back where it started, meaning that, whether we understand all of the causes or not, we are not truely responsible for our behavior?

And just for clarification, I'm not arguing, at least in this thread. I'm just trying to understand the position.


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