# Make self-defense for girls mandatory!!



## Loki (May 29, 2005)

I've been trying to get my 10 year-old sister to learn self-defense for two years now, but no good.

This morning every major Israeli newspaper had the same headline: "15 year old girl murdered for no reason". The killer was a juvenile delinquent who was given a weekend vacation from an institute that morning. He was drunk and high on contact glue fumes. She was on the way to the mall from her house, few minutes walk all in well-lit areas, when he attacked and choked her to death. When asked why he did it, he said "dunno".

My mom, shocked at this, told my sister who was reading the article with her: "You know, if she learned self-defense, she probably would still be alive."

Reading this myself, I was shocked twice. Once for the sheer randomality of the murder (doesn't happen often here), twice because I learned the response to that situation exactly in my first MA lesson.

Most girls in Israel (and most of the world, I assume) have not the faintest idea in self-defense (except MAYBE an awkward kick to the nuts). Girls who don't train in MA, are naturally tough or learn some basic form of self-defense have no idea what to do in case of an attack, much less expect one in advance.

My thoughts on the subject of mandatory self-defense classes for high school girls have been coming and going for the past two years, but this is has gone too far. Self-defense has to be taught in high school. A four-point average means nothing if you're dead.

I know that random violence is relatively rare and I'm probably being a bit emotional because of this event, but I honestly think that our sisters, daughters and girlfriends should have some idea of how to defend themselves.

What do you think?

~ Loki


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## Flatlander (May 29, 2005)

I think that this idea has a number of problems.

 For example, is it sexist?  Why girls only?  Who compiles the curriculum?  Where is it delivered?  How do you enforce it, given that its "mandatory"?  What measure of certainty do you have that it will be effective?  Who funds it?  At what age should they start?  Finish?  What do the boys do while the girls are doing this?  Who shall be held responsible when girls continue to die, even after they've been trained?   Should this be exclusively in Israel, or global in scope?  What about the women who are no longer in school?  Do they get ignored?  How do you see the mindset of the male criminal evolving with the change in the defensive ability of the victim?  How do you propose to keep up with that?  

 Just off the top of my head...


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## Loki (May 29, 2005)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> I think that this idea has a number of problems.
> 
> For example, is it sexist? Why girls only? Who compiles the curriculum? Where is it delivered? How do you enforce it, given that its "mandatory"? What measure of certainty do you have that it will be effective? Who funds it? At what age should they start? Finish? What do the boys do while the girls are doing this? Who shall be held responsible when girls continue to die, even after they've been trained? Should this be exclusively in Israel, or global in scope? What about the women who are no longer in school? Do they get ignored? How do you see the mindset of the male criminal evolving with the change in the defensive ability of the victim? How do you propose to keep up with that?
> 
> Just off the top of my head...


These are all technicalities. I'm NOT proposing a comprehensive plan after consulting a team of experts, I'm conveying a concern and offering a general solution. 'Nuff said.

~ Loki


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## Loki (May 29, 2005)

CLARIFICATION:
My primary concern is sexual assault, so maybe this isn't the best anecdote for my post, but women make much easier prey. A guy in this girl's place would have been a lot more likely to fight back effectively. Male rough-and-tumble and some schoolyard fights as youngesters plus naturally higher aggresiveness give them an edge over females in combat, this is why I think girls need these lessons a whole lot more than guys.

~ Loki


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## arnisador (May 29, 2005)

There was a mandatory unit on it in my wife's high school.

Mandatory for everyone? Too paternalistic.


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## Loki (May 29, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Mandatory for everyone? Too paternalistic.


Not mandatory as in sparring every Monday and self-defense drills every Thursday, it's not a MA class. I was thinking more towards a work shop, a few lessons during the school year teaching awareness, general pointers on self-defense and some techniques.

Suggestions?

~ Loki


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## arnisador (May 29, 2005)

Teaching awareness and general pointers--definitely. That could go a long way toward helping! Making it part of Health class makes sense to me.


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## Flatlander (May 29, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> These are all technicalities. I'm NOT proposing a comprehensive plan after consulting a team of experts, I'm conveying a concern and offering a general solution. 'Nuff said.
> 
> ~ Loki


No need to get defensive.  You asked what people thought, and that's what I think.  I feel that the question of mandatory self defense classes for girls only in school poses a number of problems.  Whether or not its a good idea would be determined by whether or not reasonable solutions to those problems can be discovered.  Further, I see little relevance in speaking in generalities.  If you are legitimately concerned about this issue, put some work into the problem, and some effort into affecting change.  That starts with considering the issue from all sides, and putting together a plan of action.  I am simply trying to help with that process.  If you don't want it, no problem for me.  'Nuff said.


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## Loki (May 29, 2005)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> No need to get defensive. You asked what people thought, and that's what I think. I feel that the question of mandatory self defense classes for girls only in school poses a number of problems. Whether or not its a good idea would be determined by whether or not reasonable solutions to those problems can be discovered. Further, I see little relevance in speaking in generalities. If you are legitimately concerned about this issue, put some work into the problem, and some effort into affecting change. That starts with considering the issue from all sides, and putting together a plan of action. I am simply trying to help with that process. If you don't want it, no problem for me. 'Nuff said.


Sorry, just looked off-topic to me.
I did put some work into the problem, and I have new plans regarding action in the field.

~ Loki


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## TigerWoman (May 29, 2005)

Random violence is becoming more and more frequent.  I have argued with my instructor for years that teens are not really taught self defense WELL.  My daughter at age 18 almost tested for 2nd dan were it not for his changing a break to knife/concrete.  I was in the process of "catch-up" to teach her self-defense in the last months before college and her test in May.  It is our schools' rule that before 12, children do not learn self defense.  So then when she went to adult classes at 12, she started learning the techniques only for her belt level, red so tested for black belt only having to demonstrate six. (I was required to do all for 2nd dan.)  So, already at 20 she has had an instance in which she had to know self-defense but she was lucky. So now she sees the value in the lessons I was giving her before...only problem is, is that she didn't get them ingrained, not enough time nor motivation then, and now she doesn't have the time. 

Just last week, here in Minnesota, in a small college town, two girls were attacked, abducted for rape.  One girl got away and one attacker was caught. The other girl wasn't so lucky, she did get raped. 

I concur heartily that all children should learn basic escape maneuvers and later after 12, the serious stuff.  We should be teaching it in high school.  But it's hard to even just demonstrate it in our schools, let alone hold classes. Somehow everyone (not in MA) thinks violence begets violence, when just the opposite happens. TW


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## sgtmac_46 (May 29, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> I've been trying to get my 10 year-old sister to learn self-defense for two years now, but no good.
> 
> This morning every major Israeli newspaper had the same headline: "15 year old girl murdered for no reason". The killer was a juvenile delinquent who was given a weekend vacation from an institute that morning. He was drunk and high on contact glue fumes. She was on the way to the mall from her house, few minutes walk all in well-lit areas, when he attacked and choked her to death. When asked why he did it, he said "dunno".
> 
> ...


Won't work. Teaching someone something against their will, is no different than teaching them nothing to begin with. The most powerful weapon a person has is their will to engage in violence for their own protection, and that cannot simply be taught. I agree that women should learn to defend themselves, but most have no desire to. You cannot turn an herbivore in to a meat eater simply by making it mandatory. The sad fact is, even if the techniques were taught, most women wouldn't or couldn't use them in a real conflict anyway, as the proper mindset is missing, and that is the mindset that tells them to harm someone else to protect themselves.  In fact, even if they had a gun in their hand, pointed at the bad guy, and had the technical skills to use it, many people would not or could not pull the trigger.  Even a gun is secondary to the will behind it.


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## MA-Caver (May 29, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> Won't work. Teaching someone something against their will, is no different than teaching them nothing to begin with. The most powerful weapon a person has is their will to engage in violence for their own protection, and that cannot simply be taught. I agree that women should learn to defend themselves, but most have no desire to. You cannot turn an herbivore in to a meat eater simply by making it mandatory. The sad fact is, even if the techniques were taught, most women wouldn't or couldn't use them in a real conflict anyway, as the proper mindset is missing, and that is the mindset that tells them to harm someone else to protect themselves.  In fact, even if they had a gun in their hand, pointed at the bad guy, and had the technical skills to use it, many people would not or could not pull the trigger.  Even a gun is secondary to the will behind it.


Loki, Sgtmac_46 is correct here. It is sad that this goes on. Thing is that it has been going on for centuries and it will probably continue to go on. Another thread here talks about sheep, sheepdogs and wolves. It was agreed that those of us who study MA/SD are basically sheepdogs that have evolved from sheep. But not everyone is going to make that leap. Consider also that conditioning sometimes plays a part in a female's (woman or girl) ability or willingness to "put up a fight". Abusive fathers/boyfriends/husbands can and have conditioned their "victims" to not fight-back/resist else it will make it worse. 
Culturally things in Isreal and other mid-east countries women are supposed to be passive. Thus making it manditory goes against the country's society values. In this country times are changing where it's becoming okay for a woman to be tough and fighting back, but it's not as widespread as it should be. 
Still individually no-one knows what they are capable of doing at any given moment. We can train, brain-train and practice and be on the alert at all times; but when the whistle blows and "it's for real" ... all of that can go right out the window. Witness battlefield testimonies of men underfire during any war. Trained to the max to confront the enemy and kill them before they get killed and a number of them will freeze up as soon as they hit the beach or get into the firefight. Same as on the streets. So there's no guarantee that teaching MA/SD will produce the desired results when it actually happens. 
The word "mandatory" means required or commanded by authority; obligatory. Or in short forced. Brings to mind a quote I read somewhere... 





> "He that is convinced against their will is of the same opinion still."


The most effective fighters are those who will want to fight and the best defenders are those who are willing to defend no matter the cost. You know as well as the rest of us that getting into a "for-real" (physical) confrontation that the odds of us getting hurt (no matter how well trained we are) are fairly high. But we're willing to take that risk and willing to take the pain and do what is necessary. Not everyone is going to do that. 
Just my four bits. 

 :asian:


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## Loki (May 30, 2005)

I agree with what you guys are saying, that forcing isn't the best idea. But think of it this way: Our level groupings in math are 3, 4 and 5 points. Does the fact that math is also forced mean that everyone will drop to 3 points and do the minimum required to pass? You still see a lot of people doing 4 and 5 points, many of them excelling or at least giving it a shot. Even those who learned 3 points math have learned something.

People who go to my MA class have different mindsets too. Some are just there for an interesting workout, some are there for the confidence building aspect, and some are there for maximum preparation for a real fight. That latter are usually the toughest fighters, and will usually be more prepared than the other two categories, but all of them have at least a general idea of self-defense, intentions differing.

This is also why I said I don't think they should be taught a full MA, from the basics to the top. Pointers, awareness and some general techniques (see my reply above to Arnisador). Even if they gain nothing more than a better awareness that they are potential victims and the street isn't as safe as they might have thought, that's still something.
I refuse to believe that since forcing isn't the best method of teaching, the whole idea should be abandoned. If there is a need for better awareness and defense ability in teenage girls, something should be done.

~ Loki


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## KenpoTex (May 30, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> Most girls in Israel (and most of the world, I assume) *have not the faintest idea in self-defense * (except MAYBE an awkward kick to the nuts). *Girls who don't train in MA, are naturally tough or learn some basic form of self-defense have no idea what to do in case of an attack, much less expect one in advance.*


You mention females specifically but the above comments really apply to most people regardless of gender.  Caver brought up the Sheep/Sheepdog thing (I'm not going to participate in another debate on that subject ) and once again, the analogy fits.  Most people in general have absolutely no clue when it comes to self-defense they're just walking "food" for the predators out there.  They live their lives in "condition white" so they never realize (or refuse to acknowledge) that they might be in danger.  Then there's the little problem of not having any idea how to respond when actually faced with a threat.

As far as mandatory SD training,  I like the idea of having awareness/avoidance or rape-prevention integrated into the curriculum in some fashion.  Discussion of these topics could then open the door for the physical training.  However, I feel that making training in SD or defensive tactics mandatory would be both counterproductive and ineffective.  If someone doesn't want to learn they're not going to (you can lead a horse to water...).  Some people just refuse to pull their head out of the sand.

I definately understand your frustration in dealing with your sister.  I've been through the same thing with mine (she's 20).  The really annoying thing is that she has had a couple of pretty close calls.  About a year ago she was at the gas station and a pickup-truck with 3 guys pulled up on the other side of the pump.  They started making comments and trying to flirt with her.  One of them came over and offered to pump the gas for her.  When she said she was fine and didn't need any help, he grabbed her by the wrist and tried to pull her to the truck.  She managed to pull her hand away and she jumped in her car and took off. 
  She had another, similar incident a few months later.  Even after these kinds of incidents, she refuses to take any kind of self-defense course (even though I've told her I would either pay for it or teach her myself).  Those of you who know me (from reading my posts), know that I'm pretty extreme when it comes to self-defense.  Therefore, you can probably imagine how frustrated I am that she won't wake up and smell the coffee.  The sad part is that even if I do manage to convince her to take some classes or something someday, it probably won't do her any good because, as sgtmac_46 said, "the mindset is missing."  This is the biggest problem with the whole situation, all the training and/or weapons in the world don't mean squat if you don't have the mindset.


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## MJS (May 30, 2005)

I think that its great that people, especially females, learn some effective SD.  However, anything something is forced upon someone, the risk of them not doing well or likeing it will always be there.  In order for something to really be 100% effective, the person needs to have their heart and mind really into it.  Sgtmac brough up some good points!

Mike


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## Jaymeister (May 30, 2005)

IMO, the best thing would be to have police officers visit the schools, to talk about self defence (like they do with drugs, fireworks etc.). It might just make people realize the importance of being able to defend yourself.


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## Loki (May 30, 2005)

As kenpotex, MJS and everyone above says (and I agree), the tools are not much without the mindset. But how is doing nothing about it any better?

Most girls I know don't take SD because SD is perceived as MA, which is stereotypically masculine. Girls are (usually) more gentle, less agressive and not as prone to go to class that teaches you various forms of hurting others. My take is that if you show girls the SD aspect of MA and how it can fit them too AND work to their benefit, a lot more girls will either take the workshops at school seriously or join a class. Those who bury their head in the sand are like religous fanatics, they won't listen to reason no matter what.

~ Loki


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## MJS (May 30, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> As kenpotex, MJS and everyone above says (and I agree), the tools are not much without the mindset. But how is doing nothing about it any better?
> 
> Most girls I know don't take SD because SD is perceived as MA, which is stereotypically masculine. Girls are (usually) more gentle, less agressive and not as prone to go to class that teaches you various forms of hurting others. My take is that if you show girls the SD aspect of MA and how it can fit them too AND work to their benefit, a lot more girls will either take the workshops at school seriously or join a class. Those who bury their head in the sand are like religous fanatics, they won't listen to reason no matter what.
> 
> ~ Loki



If someone is concerned with the well being of their daughter, then yes, of course its good to do something, such as enroll her in a SD class.  Your second paragraph brings up some good points.  I think that the way the subject of SD is brought up, will determine how effective enrolling her will be.

Mike


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## Adept (May 30, 2005)

I think it is a very important issue. Just last week there was a string of related sexual assaults in the northern suburbs of Melbourne. Very scary stuff.

 If it were up to me, I wouldn't make SD classes mandatory. As everyone else has correctly pointed out, without the will to learn and the right mindset, you are wasting your time.

 Instead I would make every attempt to raise awareness on the issue, and provide quality free training for people of all ages. This could be done in public school gymnasiums and funded by local government/private fundraising events.

 A lot of people walk around in condition white, as noted earlier, because their life experience leads them to believe that all the other conditions are a fantasy. They happen to people on the television, or in movies. Not in their real lives. If we wake people up, and let them know that this _is_ real, and _can_ happen to them, then hopefully at least some of them will take up some SD training. Even if it's just awareness and avoidance training.


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## 47MartialMan (May 30, 2005)

Public awareness is good. Mandates are not always.

Education and willingness has to be paramount.


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## mj-hi-yah (May 31, 2005)

Ive been following this thread for awhile, and I understand a lot of the thinking, especially in terms of personal commitment to learning anything.  I have to say that I like the idea of making self defense classes a natural part of a health/physical education in schools.  I think it could be part of an overall unit on bullying and personal safety.  I think awareness training would benefit boys as well as girls, but there is a lot of violence against woman in this world and I think there are some basic things that young girls should learn additionally in terms of how men attack woman differently, including date rape and other rape scenarios, and as they get closer to going away to college, campus safety should be covered for both sexes.   Some who commit to learning it will certainly get more out of it, but by making it a part of the curriculum a strong message goes out that tells young people that they have a right to defend themselves, and that it is important and worthy of school budget monies.  Thinking back to my high school years I had to participate in lots of things I didnt necessarily consider important to me personally.  I dont remember being given a choice as to whether or not I wanted to play lacrosse (and get all bruised by having that hard ball winged at me), or learn geometry, which I hated and always challenged with, _When the heck will I ever use this?,_ or typing which I stunk at, and used to sweat my way through the timed typing tests.  The interesting thing is though that all these years later I remember how to cradle the lacrosse ball and when my kids needed help as they joined a lacrosse league I was able to guide them, as well I have found many uses for geometry in my martial arts, and I now spend a ton of time typing on this keyboardwho knew?  What Im trying to say is that sometimes we dont recognize a good thing when we are forced to partake in it, and to me the benefits of even some exposure to self defense classes for young people may not be appreciated until god forbid it is called upon, and in the event that it is, they may be thankful for having had the opportunity as I am about lacrosse, geometry and typing.  :asian:


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## FearlessFreep (May 31, 2005)

I will say that as a parent to 2 daughters and 4 sons...self defense courses in my house are mandatory   My 11 yo daughter has already been told that she's free to use whatever she needs to and has been trained in to avoid being touched in ways she is not comfortable with


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## mj-hi-yah (May 31, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> I will say that as a parent to 2  daughters and 4 sons...self defense courses in my house are mandatory  My 11 yo daughter has already been told that she's free to use whatever she needs to and has been trained in to avoid being touched in ways she is not comfortable with


  Wow ~ that's a lot of kids today!  Good for you for empowering them!  I have to worry more that my 8 year old daughter will hurt my 10 year old son with the things they learn from us in terms of self defense.  He's a very good boy, and perhaps she has become overempowered.  Now I have to work on that... :rofl:


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## Brother John (May 31, 2005)

My wife and I were discussing at what point we'd allow our daughter (who's only 4 years old yet) to begin dating. I told her "I don't care what age she is, so long as she's got her Black Belt first!" She smiled and said that was a good idea. Then she said: "Wait, what about that requirement that says she must be 18 to get a Black Belt?"

I just smiled.


Your Brother
John


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## Gin-Gin (May 31, 2005)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> I have to say that I like the idea of making self defense classes a natural part of a health/physical education in schools.  I think it could be part of an overall unit on bullying and personal safety.  I think awareness training would benefit boys as well as girls, but there is a lot of violence against woman in this world and I think there are some basic things that young girls should learn additionally in terms of how men attack woman differently, including date rape and other rape scenarios, and as they get closer to going away to college, campus safety should be covered for both sexes.   Some who commit to learning it will certainly get more out of it, but by making it a part of the curriculum a strong message goes out that tells young people that they have a right to defend themselves, and that it is important and worthy of school budget monies.


I agree with sgtmac, MACaver & others that forcing someone to take MA or SD would not work; however, I think that it should be offered in schools as an elective that could be used to fulfill (if not all, at least part of) the Health/PE requirements. Also, MJ's idea of having it as part of an overall course on bullying & personal safety (for both sexes) is great! :supcool: But I think it should start before High School, probably Middle School/Jr. High, maybe even Elementary school (just basic escapes for those under 12, like TigerWoman said--plus, that's when the bullying started when I was a kid--in Elementary School).

Sadly, most women (at least in the US) are not conditioned to "fight back," especially when I was in school in the 70s & 80s.  Having been a victim of violent crime, I wish there had been a course like that offered at any of the schools I attended, but there wasn't--not even in college.  And, unfortunately, most of the people I've met who have "the mindset" are those like myself who have already been attacked.  IMHO, if we want fewer kids/teenagers attacked, we have got to incorporate personal safety education into our culture.  Here in Austin (at least at one time) the school district had approved martial arts as an off-campus, athletic training program to substitute for an on-campus PE class & one local MA school participated (students had to fill out a waiver form in order to participate).  Will have to check with that instructor & see if that is still the case...  

So although I understand where Loki is coming from about wanting to make MA/SD for women & girls mandatory, I think it should definitely be made _more available_ for both sexes to participate in if they choose.

:asian:


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## Fightback2 (May 31, 2005)

I whole-heartedly agree that we should teach self-defense to kids, especially girls; starting out at the Jr. High level.  The girls, as many have stated here, have to want to learn it.

The schools, also, have to want the kids to learn it.  I suggested that we come in and do a seminar (at no cost to the schools) on awareness and personal safety.  I was met by a huge nest of red tape.  The overall impression that I got from the school boards in our area was that we were "promoting violence".  Trying to convince them that we were trying to avoid/stop violence got us absolutely nowhere.  

I'm amazed at how many people still have their heads in the sand about this issue.  There was one dad who will stick in my mind forever.  When we suggested a self-defense course for his teenage daughter he had a fit.  Told me: "My daughter doesn't need self-defense!  She's a good girl!"  Didn't know whether to laugh or cry or smack the guy upside his thick head.

If anyone has suggestions on how to win over principals and school boards I'm ALL ears.


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## mj-hi-yah (May 31, 2005)

Fightback2 said:
			
		

> There was one dad who will stick in my mind forever. When we suggested a self-defense course for his teenage daughter he had a fit. Told me: "My daughter doesn't need self-defense! She's a good girl!" Didn't know whether to laugh or cry or smack the guy upside his thick head.
> 
> If anyone has suggestions on how to win over principals and school boards I'm ALL ears.


I'm sorry you were met with such resistance. There could be many reasons for that, but too much to speculate on here. I think some of it may have to do with semantics_. Martial Arts_ *vs.* _How Children Can Avoid Being the Victim of Bullying_, _Awareness_ *vs*._ Teaching Children About Stranger Danger._ The bullying angle is a great place to start, because most everyone can understand and relate to that in their own schooling and appreciate the need to have children feel safe and comfortable both in school and on their buses amongst peers. Stranger Danger programs also go over well in terms of teaching awareness, because people can relate to that as well. Try to put together a program for one or both of those areas, which also addresses issues of self worth and self esteem. Most PTAs/School Boards can appreciate those themes especially considering the resistance you encountered suggesting that the attitude is that MA = Violence. Start with small steps, and offer to let the School Board and or PTA preview your program and offer suggestions before you begin.


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## 47MartialMan (May 31, 2005)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Try to put together a program for one or both of those areas, which also addresses issues of self worth and self esteem. Most PTAs/School Boards can appreciate those themes especially considering the resistance you encountered suggesting that the attitude is that MA = Violence. Start with small steps, and offer to let the School Board and or PTA preview your program and offer suggestions before you begin.


Nice, how would you go about meeting and convincing?


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## mj-hi-yah (May 31, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Nice, how owuld you go about meeting and convincing?


Well in this area of the US many Parent Teacher Associations have funds for Cultural Arts Programs.  I'd investigate that angle first.  Charging a small something is ok to do, and maybe even legitimizes it a bit psychologically.  I'd also request a meeting with building principals to be given a chance to preview the presentation.  If need be, as a last resort the School Board.  Private schools are another area to tap into and may be a good place to start and then you can build a resume of places you've been to who can give feedback, hopefully in your favor.


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## 47MartialMan (May 31, 2005)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Well in this area of the US many Parent Teacher Associations have funds for Cultural Arts Programs. I'd investigate that angle first. Charging a small something is ok to do, and maybe even legitimizes it a bit psychologically. I'd also request a meeting with building principals to be given a chance to preview the presentation. If need be, as a last resort the School Board. Private schools are another area to tap into and may be a good place to start and then you can build a resume of places you've been to who can give feedback, hopefully in your favor.


Nice tip.

Would you go about v reating a letter/write-up of your proposal?


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## mj-hi-yah (May 31, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Nice tip.
> 
> Would you go about v reating a letter/write-up of your proposal?


I think networking is the best way to get started.  Most times either your children are in a school and you can approach that principal, or if you do not have children, than try and find a neighbor or friend who can open a door for you.  Otherwise a written proposal is a good idea, but flyers and pictures and other informational handouts that will catch the attention of an often very busy building principal might be the way to go.  If you go the PTA route, place a call to the school to  find out who is in charge of spending the money and address it to the person with that title such as, Attention: Cultural Arts Committee Chair Person.


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## arnisador (May 31, 2005)

Self-defense classes are mandatory for my kids too. But for everyone--I don't know.

You could also make a case for First Aid/CPR for everyone, and other things...a line has to be drawn somewhere.


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## 47MartialMan (May 31, 2005)

Mandatory or not, the need had to be realised first.


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## goshawk (Jun 1, 2005)

Hmmm. This is definitely an important issue, and I have to say I sympathize with a lot of the frustration I'm hearing about some women not having the mindset to dig in and make themselves prey too expensive for the human predators to bother with. However, I must emphatically disagree with those of you saying that mandatory self-defence courses/lectures/seminars are a bad idea.

I was raised by a father who from day one told me the first thing I should do was scream my head off, and that while I was doing that I should be kicking, hitting, biting, clawing, pinching, and generally acting like a lunatic. Essentially, I grew up believing that anyone who touched me with malicious intent deserved to get torn up. Later, I took that to martial arts on my own, and felt at home.

Most don't have the benefit of that early training. That doesn't _necessarily_ mean that some of the same women I see every day (shuffling around downtown in stiletto flip-flops and mini-skirts with their heads halfway down their purses at 2300h) are devoid of the will to claw their way out of an attack kicking and screaming. What it means is that for most girls, the idea that they are allowed to be so crazy--that in fact they _should_ cause irreparable damage to their attackers--isn't something they've ever thought about.

I do agree with most of you that forcing every girl through martial arts classes day-in, day-out without their having chosen to be there would be an exercise in futility. There is, however, an alternative. I went to a private school for four years that did establish a mandatory two-month, twice-weekly self-defence class for all the females in the school, taught by a local woman who'd been to hell and back and since achieved some mastery in t'ai chi and a couple other martial arts (a truly amazing woman, I wish I knew more about her). Instead of blocks and strikes, it emphasized situational awareness, assertive behaviour, and the ability to look a strange male in the eyes and tell him to back off in a commanding tone of voice. It covered prevention, body-language, survival strategies if the attack or rape proved impossible to escape, and the concept of recovery afterwards.

At the time, I was shocked at how timid and...well...prey-like a lot of the girls around me behaved. Now I realize it's the norm--but by the end of the course, some of these same girls walked down the street with their heads up. Sure, it had a lasting effect on only 30% of the fifty-odd girls there. But that's still fifteen girls walking around with a better chance of survival. To my mind, that alone is enough to justify implementing such a program.

And hell, by all means, have a similar course for the boys--focus it on guys' problems. Ways to avoid brawls, the ability to back down from a confrontation, body-language, assertive vs. aggressive behaviour...there is, I'm sure, a lot to be gained by both sexes here.

Well. There's my two cents (or maybe fifty...)


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## mj-hi-yah (Jun 1, 2005)

goshawk said:
			
		

> I do agree with most of you that forcing every girl through martial arts classes day-in, day-out without their having chosen to be there would be an exercise in futility. There is, however, an alternative. I went to a private school for four years that did establish a mandatory two-month, twice-weekly self-defence class for all the females in the school, taught by a local woman who'd been to hell and back and since achieved some mastery in t'ai chi and a couple other martial arts (a truly amazing woman, I wish I knew more about her). Instead of blocks and strikes, it emphasized situational awareness, assertive behaviour, and the ability to look a strange male in the eyes and tell him to back off in a commanding tone of voice. It covered prevention, body-language, survival strategies if the attack or rape proved impossible to escape, and the concept of recovery afterwards.


This is similar to what I had in mind. I think it's great, and perfect for High School, and it could work as a unit contained in an overall part of a Phys. Ed./Health program, just like I had to take that unit on lacrosse. I agree with Gin-Gin too that personal safety, awareness training and issues concerning bullying should start in the early grades, and to me there are age appropriate things, especially surrounding personal safety and abduction (_stranger danger_), that can be taught to children of both sexes as early as Nursery School.


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## Fightback2 (Jun 1, 2005)

"Stranger Danger" - definitely something that needs to be taught.  Let's also remember that most assaults on children and women come from people that they know and often trust.  Things can get sticky here.

It's often difficult to get someone to understand that they have a right to fight back with a vengeance against someone that they thought was their friend.  The difference between bad touching/good touching can be difficult to teach even for an experienced instructor.

It's also hard to get across to teenage girls that they don't have to "put out" to fit in.  Peer pressure is a tough to deal with.  Standing up to it is something else that could be woven into a seminar or class on personal safety.  

Although it can be a fine line to walk - where does the safety/awareness/self-defense issues end and moral issues begin?  There has to be a way to blend them together seamlessly without the students feeling like they're being lectured.  If a program is to succeed it has to be enjoyable for the student as well as informative.


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## mj-hi-yah (Jun 1, 2005)

Fightback2 said:
			
		

> "Stranger Danger" - definitely something that needs to be taught. Let's also remember that most assaults on children and women come from people that they know and often trust. Things can get sticky here.


Yes, this is an important point - a stranger is not always a person who will harm you and a person you know sometimes very well, as in relative/neighbor/family friend might harm you. The idea you need to get across is that if someone does something that makes you feel uncomfortable or hurts you, you need to tell someone, and that someone you tell should be a person you are comfortable with. That person you "trust" with your story can be a parent or teacher or another relative. This is a person who has proven to you that they are a "trusted" adult.



> It's often difficult to get someone to understand that they have a right to fight back with a vengeance against someone that they thought was their friend. The difference between bad touching/good touching can be difficult to teach even for an experienced instructor.


 Yes it can be difficult to explain, but it is best to keep it simple. 





> Although it can be a fine line to walk - where does the safety/awareness/self-defense issues end and moral issues begin? There has to be a way to blend them together seamlessly without the students feeling like they're being lectured. If a program is to succeed it has to be enjoyable for the student as well as informative.


The best way to handle some of this is through an interdisciplinary approach. Some of this subject matter can be addressed in terms of citizenship, which is an accepted part of many Social Studies curriculums. Some of this is taking place already in public schools. For instance my eight year old is learning all about acceptance, empathy, honesty, fairness, sharing and respect, and this learning takes place throughout the school year. I think any program that sticks to issues that emphasize basic good citizenship, and avoids moral issues such as, abortion in terms of rape for instance, should be fine.


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## goshawk (Jun 1, 2005)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> This is similar to what I had in mind. I think it's great, and perfect for High School, and it could work as a unit contained in an overall part of a Phys. Ed./Health program


Yep, one unit every year for, say, grades ten through twelve? In BC they're even making PE mandatory through to graduation again, so that'd work out perfectly. I wonder who to write to about this...time for some homework. =P


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## 47MartialMan (Jun 1, 2005)

In todays society, this kind of "extra knowldege" is most beneficial. It would seem illogical not to have this already implemented.


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## Loki (Jun 4, 2005)

Can anyone suggest any good books dealing with situtational awareness, rape prevention etc.? 

Plus, for those of you who read it, how is de Becker's "Gift of Fear"?

~ Loki

PS Thanks for all the responses to the thread.


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## Fightback2 (Jun 4, 2005)

The Gift of Fear is very dry reading but has very good info.  As does Beauty Bites Beast.


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## Loki (Jun 5, 2005)

Dry is good!
(I read a lot of relatively dry books, I'm used to 'em).

~ Loki


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