# kiddy/fatty blackbelts (RANT)



## The MMA kid!

there are many schools out there that seem to promote children at a very fast rate. there are some schools that I have seen that children as young as 8 years old have attained a black belt!! this bothers me very, very much.
there is a kid who rents mat time at dojang/jo (15, maybe 16 years old) who teaches a karate class. he is a 3rd dan blackbelt!!! this would be a little easier for me to deal with if the guy had good fighting ability, but he doesn't. it all just seems so horrible to me. I just sit there and look at his flyer and ask myself, "why?"
when i was 12, i was testing for my 2nd promotion and had to spar a kiddy blackbelt, he was about 10( not promoted at bb in our school). I put all of my skills into that match, and i really creamed the kid. 

why anyone want to even accept the rank of blackbelt if they know in their heart that they lack the skills?

another thing i see now, OUT OF SHAPE INSTRUCTORS. now i understand if a person has past his/her prime and is now having to work a little harder to stay in shape and/or has medical problems, etc. but I am seeing a vast majority of instructors who just let themselves go! IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT MARTIAL ARTS. even if the instructor truly has mastered his/her art, they should still frequently practice it. I had one fellow instructor who opted not to take the adult class after teaching the kids classes, and for no good apparent reason, he rarely practiced. 

another thing, I have lately been seeing this fad of the old, tattered-looking vintage blackbelt (the actual belt) on teenaged blackbelts. Im guessing this is supposed to give off the illusion that they have been a black belt for a long time. I have seen these on sale on different martial arts web-stores. 
and people wonder why so many Americanized martial arts are so watered down!!
please, we need to stop celebrating mediocrity and take pride in our arts!

*sighs* thanks, I really needed to get that out


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## CuongNhuka

I know of an Aikido Sensei who is very out of shape. But there is no way I could take him on. Size and shape doesn't quite matter. But remember, don't drop to there level. Read the thing about honor in the martial arts on the same forum. It has a simliar theme.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John


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## SAVAGE

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> there are many schools out there that seem to promote children at a very fast rate. there are some schools that I have seen that children as young as 8 years old have attained a black belt!! this bothers me very, very much.
> there is a kid who rents mat time at dojang/jo (15, maybe 16 years old) who teaches a karate class. he is a 3rd dan blackbelt!!! this would be a little easier for me to deal with if the guy had good fighting ability, but he doesn't. it all just seems so horrible to me. I just sit there and look at his flyer and ask myself, "why?"
> when i was 12, i was testing for my 2nd promotion and had to spar a kiddy blackbelt, he was about 10( not promoted at bb in our school). I put all of my skills into that match, and i really creamed the kid.
> 
> why anyone want to even accept the rank of blackbelt if they know in their heart that they lack the skills?
> 
> another thing i see now, OUT OF SHAPE INSTRUCTORS. now i understand if a person has past his/her prime and is now having to work a little harder to stay in shape and/or has medical problems, etc. but I am seeing a vast majority of instructors who just let themselves go! IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT MARTIAL ARTS. even if the instructor truly has mastered his/her art, they should still frequently practice it. I had one fellow instructor who opted not to take the adult class after teaching the kids classes, and for no good apparent reason, he rarely practiced.
> 
> another thing, I have lately been seeing this fad of the old, tattered-looking vintage blackbelt (the actual belt) on teenaged blackbelts. Im guessing this is supposed to give off the illusion that they have been a black belt for a long time. I have seen these on sale on different martial arts web-stores.
> and people wonder why so many Americanized martial arts are so watered down!!
> please, we need to stop celebrating mediocrity and take pride in our arts!
> 
> *sighs* thanks, I really needed to get that out


 
I mean this in the most respectful way....but you must be the worlds best martial artist and fighter...because it is so obvious that you have no faults..and you can cream a 10 year old black belt...WOW!

I am a overweight martial artist 130kg of bulk...I have trained for 18 years in four different arts (I am not bragging just saying)...I dont have a black belt...I dont want it...I never bothered to grade for it...but I can hold my own believe me...I am only 27..no medical history..so according to you I am a useless martial artist.

Do you have a black belt?...does that mean you should be  a martial arts guru...a belt is only there to hold your gi together...any renshi...or soke...or grandmaster will tell you they are still students...what great power do you have to judge...from what I understand childrens black belts are not the same as adult black belts....and to gate a third dan means that he would havwe had to spend at least seven years doing karate...have you been around MA for that long? however people choose to train in MA is there business not yours...just keep doing what you do and let people do what they do!

*sigh* thank you for letting me get that out!


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## The MMA kid!

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> I mean this in the most respectful way....but you must be the worlds best martial artist and fighter...because it is so obvious that you have no faults..and you can cream a 10 year old black belt...WOW!
> 
> I am a overweight martial artist 130kg of bulk...I have trained for 18 years in four different arts (I am not bragging just saying)...I dont have a black belt...I dont want it...I never bothered to grade for it...but I can hold my own believe me...I am only 27..no medical history..so according to you I am a useless martial artist.
> 
> Do you have a black belt?...does that mean you should be a martial arts guru...a belt is only there to hold your gi together...any renshi...or soke...or grandmaster will tell you they are still students...what great power do you have to judge...from what I understand childrens black belts are not the same as adult black belts....and to gate a third dan means that he would have had to spend at least seven years doing karate...have you been around MA for that long? however people choose to train in MA is there business not yours...just keep doing what you do and let people do what they do!
> 
> *sigh* thank you for letting me get that out!


 
hey savage, sorry if i offended you, but you dont fall into ANY of the categories i listed. I have been doing martial arts for 8 years. 1st dan blackbelt. you said you dont have a blackbelt correct? this is why you do not fall into the rant.
my main target was kiddy blackbelts, and out of shape instructors. are you either? my rant was not with you. I have no problem with out of shape instructors either as a matter of fact, just out of shape instructors who dont practice anymore. you say you do martial arts, and are still doing it if i read correctly, another reason why this post shouldn't have offended you. heck, i have a big instructor, but he works his butt off in the dojo, sparring, grappling, and running just like the rest of us. its a little harder to set a tone in writing. 
and no, I am not the best martial artist ever, i never really mentioned myself in my rant. EDIT* except my experience at 12 years old. again, sorry to offend, but i fail to see what offended you.


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## Jonathan Randall

The most important thing in your life is what you do - not what others do.


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## karatekid1975

SAVAGE, I can agree with you to a point, but relax a bit. I'm not downing either one of you, but I can agree to a point with both of you.

I don't agree with the 9 year old BB's either, but I do see that a "kiddie" (or jr) BB is not the same as an adults. I don't know about "fatty" BB's. I never trained with one (instructors anyways).

For me, I'm almost 31, and I am picky about when I test. Yes, I have that choice. I have seen horrible BB's, and I don't wanna be one of them. I am now a first gup. I "should" be testing in April for BB. But If I don't feel I'm ready, I simply won't. I do trust my instructor's choice of letting me test, but I want to feel right about it too. I want to know I can do what he asks, instead of "winging it." But then again, I won't wait 10 years to do so (has happened in my school LOL. A dude is a 1st gup and he has been training 10 years in my dojang).

So it's a matter of opinion, or situation (or a case of McDojang or whatever).


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## karatekid1975

Jonathan Randall, Amen


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## terryl965

MMA kid since you know me and I do fit into your catagory, the one with being overwieght, but in shape. I know my skills our equal t many MA"ERS out there and I'm myself not happy about the weight, working n losing it but since the heart attack it as been a stugle for me, diet exorcise and waiting to make sure I do not over do it this time around.

Your statement should be a little more gentle in wording not to offend anybody.

As far a BB goes you are Kukkiwon certified correct and then you know the juniors in are Art or sport is consider a poom whch is a Jr. BB. You have been training for eight yearcrrect and you are a 1st dan, my odest has been raining for eight years and is pom kukkiwon certified, been doing National and Internaional events for 5 years, I know you respect me as I you, since we are in the same neck of the woods

I hope you can see where some of or statements should have ben defind a little tonight.
Thanks
Terry Lee Stoker


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## Jonathan Randall

terryl965 said:
			
		

> MMA kid since you know me and I do fit into your catagory, the one with being overwieght, but in shape. I know my skills our equal t many MA"ERS out there and I'm myself not happy about the weight, working n losing it but since the heart attack it as been a stugle for me, diet exorcise and waiting to make sure I do not over do it this time around.
> Terry Lee Stoker


 
I'm very sorry to hear that you had a heart attack, sir. BTW, were _you_ in my neck of the woods, I wouldn't hesitate to study under you as our views on TKD and MA are nearly identical. If you have a few extra pounds, well so do I. However, looks are deceptive as I and I'm sure you as well, have far greater abilities than we had when we were 19 and family and job considerations didn't have us eating on the fly and struggling to find extra gym time. You are very correct, MMA Kid should have put more consideration into his post. He's still very young, though, and probably didn't intend offense.


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## The MMA kid!

terryl965 said:
			
		

> MMA kid since you know me and I do fit into your catagory, the one with being overwieght, but in shape. I know my skills our equal t many MA"ERS out there and I'm myself not happy about the weight, working n losing it but since the heart attack it as been a stugle for me, diet exorcise and waiting to make sure I do not over do it this time around.
> 
> Your statement should be a little more gentle in wording not to offend anybody.
> 
> As far a BB goes you are Kukkiwon certified correct and then you know the juniors in are Art or sport is consider a poom whch is a Jr. BB. You have been training for eight yearcrrect and you are a 1st dan, my odest has been raining for eight years and is pom kukkiwon certified, been doing National and Internaional events for 5 years, I know you respect me as I you, since we are in the same neck of the woods
> 
> I hope you can see where some of or statements should have ben defind a little tonight.
> Thanks
> Terry Lee Stoker


 
 i have read in other threads about your son, and i respect that. him memorizing all of those forms is very impressive! up to 4 hours a day you say? that is quite impressive as it is rather difficult for me to train more than 2 1/2 hours a night (after teaching) Im sorry to hear about your heart attack, you are my senior and a "ma#ter" for that you will always have my respect. after reading over my post i do realize where i could have been easier with my words.


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## The MMA kid!

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> I'm very sorry to hear that you had a heart attack, sir. BTW, were _you_ in my neck of the woods, I wouldn't hesitate to study under you as our views on TKD and MA are nearly identical. If you have a few extra pounds, well so do I. However, looks are deceptive as I and I'm sure you as well, have far greater abilities than we had when we were 19 and family and job considerations didn't have us eating on the fly and struggling to find extra gym time. You are very correct, MMA Kid should have put more consideration into his post. He's still very young, though, and probably didn't intend offense.


 
yea, hence the "kid" in my name. I do apologize for my wording. 
moving along, has anyone else seen these "vintage" black belts going around?


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## Jonathan Randall

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> i have read in other threads about your son, and i respect that. him memorizing all of those forms is very impressive! up to 4 hours a day you say? that is quite impressive as it is rather difficult for me to train more than 2 1/2 hours a night (after teaching) Im sorry to hear about your heart attack, you are my senior and a "ma#ter" for that you will always have my respect. after reading over my post i do realize where i could have been easier with my words.


 
Very good post! 

It demonstrates maturity on your part to be able to backtrack and correct yourself the moment your realize, or have it pointed out to you, that you erred a bit.


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## terryl965

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> i have read in other threads about your son, and i respect that. him memorizing all of those forms is very impressive! up to 4 hours a day you say? that is quite impressive as it is rather difficult for me to train more than 2 1/2 hours a night (after teaching) Im sorry to hear about your heart attack, you are my senior and a "ma#ter" for that you will always have my respect. after reading over my post i do realize where i could have been easier with my words.


 
MMA kid  you are a valuble asset to the Art of TKD and to Mt as well we all from time to time need to vent and that is Ok, just remember like I have to do is watch my own P's and Q's for the passion we have is like a flow of water it can never be stopped and will always be there to quence our thirst for knowledge.
Terry


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## MJS

Mod Note

Thread moved to horror stories

MJS
MT Mod


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## SAVAGE

The most important thing in your life is what you do - not what others do.Today 11:30 PM 
This is exactly it!

listen kid....you want me to disect your post..I am not offended..you cannot offend me but your portrayl of something that has been my life is offensive!

_*there are many schools out there that seem to promote children at a very fast rate. there are some schools that I have seen that children as young as 8 years old have attained a black belt!! this bothers me very, very much.*_

If a child put in the time why should he not be awarded the black belt...like I said a childs blackbelt is not the same as a adults black belt in any org I heard of!

*there is a kid who rents mat time at dojang/jo (15, maybe 16 years old) who teaches a karate class. he is a 3rd dan blackbelt!!!*

*A little jealous perhaps...he is a qualified third dan why do you think he shouldnt teach?*

*this would be a little easier for me to deal with if the guy had good fighting ability, but he doesn't. it all just seems so horrible to me. I just sit there and look at his flyer and ask myself, "why?"*

*Here is a staement...you are not a memeber of his class I gather so why should it bother you...from this you are saying that because he cant fight that he knows nothing and cannot teach technique...that is BS man..so unless your master is a world class fighter he is useless..my art hapkido has no competition...so my master is not a fighter..I better stop now and give up I just wasted ten years damn...my master for Judo...was not a world champion, he was not even a very good fighter..but we have a Commonwealth Games Gold Medalist..Nacanieli Takayawa in our dojo...someone better tell him that he has learnt crap and he better give his medals back! I also ask myself why? Why are you so critical of this guy....why are you reading his flyers...go and train!*

*when i was 12, i was testing for my 2nd promotion and had to spar a kiddy blackbelt, he was about 10( not promoted at bb in our school). I put all of my skills into that match, and i really creamed the kid.* 

*The difference between a 12 year old and a 10 year old...is size strength and weight..Mike Tyson vs De la Hoya.......you catch my drift..a blackbelt is not all about whos *** you can kick!*

*why anyone want to even accept the rank of blackbelt if they know in their heart that they lack the skills?
*
*Why do you say in there hearts...do you know what is in there hearts? are you a clairvoyant...what number am I thinking of? And a qualified instructor has deemed these people worty but no you say...well we better all listen then huh!*

_*another thing i see now, OUT OF SHAPE INSTRUCTORS. now i understand if a person has past his/her prime and is now having to work a little harder to stay in shape and/or has medical problems, etc. but I am seeing a vast majority of instructors who just let themselves go! IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT MARTIAL ARTS. even if the instructor truly has mastered his/her art, they should still frequently practice it. I had one fellow instructor who opted not to take the adult class after teaching the kids classes, and for no good apparent reason, he rarely practiced. 
*_
*Once again these are men and women much more qualified than you..strength is not the be all end all..technique is more important...that is why they are called masters..because they have mastered there arts..and if they dont practice why dont you challange them to a fight and see if they still HAVE WHAT IT TAKES*!

_*hey savage, sorry if i offended you, but you dont fall into ANY of the categories i listed. I have been doing martial arts for 8 years. 1st dan blackbelt. you said you dont have a blackbelt correct? this is why you do not fall into the rant.*_

_*My rank is of no import as to why I was annoyed....you have a first dan black belt...big deal! It doent make you better than the overweight instructors!*_

*my main target was kiddy blackbelts, and out of shape instructors. are you either?*

*People you are obviously superior to right? I mean yiour a first dan dlack belt ohhhhhhh...and the fat fifth dans should just pack up and go home.....I do instruct! I created my own style..well in the midst of creating!*

*I have no problem with out of shape instructors either as a matter of fact, just out of shape instructors who dont practice anymore.*

*So if they are teaching...they are not practicing....explain that..the best way to learn is to teach!*

*but i fail to see what offended you.*

*You are arrogant...you have no respect for people who wear the black belts..and instructors of a higher rank...you sound like only fighters should wear a black belt...for a first dan you know very little about the core of MA..this may not be the case but it is what I gather from your posts...you have a little stripe on the tip of your belt you are not yet a master...so how can you judge them..i agree that children do not need to wear same level black belts as adults..but yopu go about it as if it is your problem..which it is not! Unless you are perfect do not judge others!*
_* 

*_ 
 





* 

*


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## The MMA kid!

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> The most important thing in your life is what you do - not what others do.Today 11:30 PM
> This is exactly it!
> 
> listen kid....you want me to disect your post..I am not offended..you cannot offend me but your portrayl of something that has been my life is offensive!
> 
> _*there are many schools out there that seem to promote children at a very fast rate. there are some schools that I have seen that children as young as 8 years old have attained a black belt!! this bothers me very, very much.*_
> 
> If a child put in the time why should he not be awarded the black belt...like I said a childs blackbelt is not the same as a adults black belt in any org I heard of!
> 
> *there is a kid who rents mat time at dojang/jo (15, maybe 16 years old) who teaches a karate class. he is a 3rd dan blackbelt!!!*
> 
> *A little jealous perhaps...he is a qualified third dan why do you think he shouldnt teach?*
> 
> *this would be a little easier for me to deal with if the guy had good fighting ability, but he doesn't. it all just seems so horrible to me. I just sit there and look at his flyer and ask myself, "why?"*
> 
> *Here is a staement...you are not a memeber of his class I gather so why should it bother you...from this you are saying that because he cant fight that he knows nothing and cannot teach technique...that is BS man..so unless your master is a world class fighter he is useless..my art hapkido has no competition...so my master is not a fighter..I better stop now and give up I just wasted ten years damn...my master for Judo...was not a world champion, he was not even a very good fighter..but we have a Commonwealth Games Gold Medalist..Nacanieli Takayawa in our dojo...someone better tell him that he has learnt crap and he better give his medals back! I also ask myself why? Why are you so critical of this guy....why are you reading his flyers...go and train!*
> 
> *when i was 12, i was testing for my 2nd promotion and had to spar a kiddy blackbelt, he was about 10( not promoted at bb in our school). I put all of my skills into that match, and i really creamed the kid.*
> 
> *The difference between a 12 year old and a 10 year old...is size strength and weight..Mike Tyson vs De la Hoya.......you catch my drift..a blackbelt is not all about whos *** you can kick!*
> 
> *why anyone want to even accept the rank of blackbelt if they know in their heart that they lack the skills?*
> 
> *Why do you say in there hearts...do you know what is in there hearts? are you a clairvoyant...what number am I thinking of? And a qualified instructor has deemed these people worty but no you say...well we better all listen then huh!*
> 
> _*another thing i see now, OUT OF SHAPE INSTRUCTORS. now i understand if a person has past his/her prime and is now having to work a little harder to stay in shape and/or has medical problems, etc. but I am seeing a vast majority of instructors who just let themselves go! IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT MARTIAL ARTS. even if the instructor truly has mastered his/her art, they should still frequently practice it. I had one fellow instructor who opted not to take the adult class after teaching the kids classes, and for no good apparent reason, he rarely practiced. *_
> 
> *Once again these are men and women much more qualified than you..strength is not the be all end all..technique is more important...that is why they are called masters..because they have mastered there arts..and if they dont practice why dont you challange them to a fight and see if they still HAVE WHAT IT TAKES*!
> 
> _*hey savage, sorry if i offended you, but you dont fall into ANY of the categories i listed. I have been doing martial arts for 8 years. 1st dan blackbelt. you said you dont have a blackbelt correct? this is why you do not fall into the rant.*_
> 
> _*My rank is of no import as to why I was annoyed....you have a first dan black belt...big deal! It doent make you better than the overweight instructors!*_
> 
> *my main target was kiddy blackbelts, and out of shape instructors. are you either?*
> 
> *People you are obviously superior to right? I mean yiour a first dan dlack belt ohhhhhhh...and the fat fifth dans should just pack up and go home.....I do instruct! I created my own style..well in the midst of creating!*
> 
> *I have no problem with out of shape instructors either as a matter of fact, just out of shape instructors who dont practice anymore.*
> 
> *So if they are teaching...they are not practicing....explain that..the best way to learn is to teach!*
> 
> *but i fail to see what offended you.*
> 
> *You are arrogant...you have no respect for people who wear the black belts..and instructors of a higher rank...you sound like only fighters should wear a black belt...for a first dan you know very little about the core of MA..this may not be the case but it is what I gather from your posts...you have a little stripe on the tip of your belt you are not yet a master...so how can you judge them..i agree that children do not need to wear same level black belts as adults..but yopu go about it as if it is your problem..which it is not! Unless you are perfect do not judge others!*


Savage, I apologize for offending you. had i known that my thread would spark such a flame I would not have posted it. I am not arrogant, your right, maybe i shoudnt judge others, but i was explaining my opinion. and you are right, because of how belts are now distributed, i DONT respect the black belt. I no longer respect any belt. I respect experience, and knowledge of the art.
as far as the "how is teaching not practicing"... teaching is a form of practicing, but you and i both know that it is not the same.


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## MJS

Gentlemen,

The discussions usually go better if we refrain from taking personal shots at one another.  I know that emotions can run high at times, but lets try to keep the discussion on a more friendly level.

Mike


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## Jonathan Randall

MJS said:
			
		

> Gentlemen,
> 
> The discussions usually go better if we refrain from taking personal shots at one another. I know that emotions can run high at times, but lets try to keep the discussion on a more friendly level.
> 
> Mike


 
Yes, and MMA Kid has apologized multiple times for giving offense, so I consider the case closed.


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## SAVAGE

Like i said he may be a good kid...but it is an arrogant post......people were posting while I was still wording mine....I apologise for offending anyone...i disagree whole heartedly with MMA kid, especially that teaching is not learning...it is revision of what they know...these people became masters for a reason and most of them forget more MA than we could hope to learn...I learnt TKD, repect to seniors is a tenent..,.and one that applies to all MA...people seem to forget that!


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## green meanie

Here's my two cents. Hope I don't offend anybody.

It's apparent to me that MMA kid is troubled by 1) children in black belts and 2) instructors who appear to have no fighting ability. The reality is you're in an art that, from your perspective, advocates both of these situations. Many arts award black belts to children. Many arts have nothing to do with fighting. That seems to be the place you're in right now and no amount of ranting is going to change that. But there are also many arts who do not award black belts to children under the age of 14 or 16. There are many arts that feel that the ability to fight in 'live' situations is of the utmost importance. Perhaps its just time for you consider taking your training in another direction.


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## Makalakumu

MMAKid

There is an interesting difference between talking on the internet and talking to someone in real life.  There is no one around when you post.  No one to cut off certain thoughts before they get out of hand.  The words on the internet don't go away, though, until the mod deletes them or they are buried in a bunch of posts.  

Thus, when one runs off at the mouth (and channels it through the keyboard), it can be kind of...interesting.  When I first started posting here, I had a few threads that I typed some stuff that I wish I could take back.  You can't do that though.

All you can do is learn a little and attempt to remember that 2,500 people may read what you write.  Controversial topics are ones that really need to be dealt with tactfully.  You can talk about this stuff if you wish, but you have to think about ways to bring it up that won't be overly hurtful...just as you would in real life.

With that being said, I agree with some of the substance in your rant.  However, the question becomes, what to do about it.  Do we take all of the kiddy black belts away and send them packing?  Do we take bbs away from people who get out of shape and can no longer perform?  It may be helpful to remember that some of these folks may have been great when they were younger...or may be showing potential to be great in the future.  And then there are those who get things but do not really deserve them.  Can you really differentiate between these groups?

The only thing you can do is control what you do.  Do not let yourself get out of shape if that is important to you.  If you run your own dojang, do not test kids for bb or even teach kids if you don't think that your martial art.  Look at some of the threads on MT regarding health and fitness.  Look at some regarding teaching children.  See things from many different points of view.  But always focus on what you can do yourself and you will always be part of the solution.  

:asian: 

upnorthkyosa


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## Kacey

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> MMAKid
> 
> With that being said, I agree with some of the substance in your rant. However, the question becomes, what to do about it. Do we take all of the kiddy black belts away and send them packing? Do we take bbs away from people who get out of shape and can no longer perform? It may be helpful to remember that some of these folks may have been great when they were younger...or may be showing potential to be great in the future. And then there are those who get things but do not really deserve them. Can you really differentiate between these groups?upnorthkyosa


I think that this statement really sums up quite a bit of the discussion. I have heard this argument before (both the kids and the overweight adults). In regards to the kids, well, I have to say that I have a problem with black belts who still have to hold mom's hand while crossing the parking lot, and, in addition, most of the very young BBs I have seen have a great deal of cute factor and much less performance factor - but not all of them; I have seen some truly awesome performances from younger students, both in terms of athletic ability that adults may not be able to manage and in terms of technical proficiency. The question I have about these students is: do they truly understand what they have been trained to do? In TKD (at least in the variant I train in), black belt signifies the wearer's "imperviousness to darkness and fear"; in reality, it signifies a level of control (which comes from practice) that differentiates between a red belt and a black belt - that is, a red belt knows, and knows how to use, potentially deadly techniques, while a black belt knows to to control those same techniques to get a specific response, from striking just above the surface, to light contact, medium contact, and intentional injury. Students who are very young when demonstrating the physical skills may have more difficulty demonstrating the comprehension of when and how to apply those skills, and that is of greater concern to me than any other issue - but it is impossible to make a single guideline that covers all people of all ages. Some children are more mature, emotionally and cognitively, at 10 than some adults will ever be. It is the responsibility of the instructor determine if the student is physically, cognitively, and emotionally ready to be a BB before the student is allowed to test. An organization can provide guidelines, but cannot replace an instructor's knowledge of his/her students and their individual needs and abilities.

As for the second part of the 'rant', there are a couple of issues. First, WHY is the person overweight/out of shape? And is the person really as out of shape as s/he appears? I know a lot of senior BBs who appear to be out of shape, with weight gained due to circumstances (injury, illness, side effects of medication, etc.) who, despite their appearance, are very capable of performing - although as a middle school teacher, I am quite dismayed by one of the PE teachers who, with no medical excuse, is severely obese (by which I mean 5'11", over 350, and has trouble with stairs) - and he teaches health, and the importance of fitness. The difference is, I think, that the BBs I know who are overweight are still very capable of demonstrating what they teach; the PE teacher is a living example of how not to follow his own teachings. As people age, it becomes easier to put on weight, and harder to keep it off; the long-term effects of injury and/or illness can exacerbate this. BBs who experience these problems and still continue to train and instruct have my respect, not my denigration - they are continuing to better their chosen art(s) rather than sitting on the couch bemoaning the loss of their youth and doing nothing to slow their decline.  The second part of the issue, already alluded to, is what the person has done to maintain his/her skills despite illness or injury - I have a student who reached high red belt and then required back surgery for an injury sustained while working on his house; after nearly two years of rehab and additional injuries (he fell while working on a staircase in his house, broke two ribs, and punctured a lung) he returned to class, worked out, and tested for his BB - including performing a midair foot break at his shoulder level.  Can other, younger, more "in-shape" students perform the same break higher or to more boards?  Certainly - but his perseverance in reaching his goals is more impressive to me than youthful athleticism.



			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> MMAKid
> The only thing you can do is control what you do. Do not let yourself get out of shape if that is important to you. If you run your own dojang, do not test kids for bb or even teach kids if you don't think that your martial art. Look at some of the threads on MT regarding health and fitness. Look at some regarding teaching children. See things from many different points of view. But always focus on what you can do yourself and you will always be part of the solution.
> 
> :asian:
> 
> upnorthkyosa



I agree wholeheartedly.  My sister, who is 43, is still blaming all the things that have gone wrong in her life on things my mother did when we were kids, because it's easier than blaming herself.  If you don't like the examples you see around you, then work on yourself and your ability to set a different example - if you do it well enough, then others will follow you.

This discussion is part of a set of larger issues that need to be aired and discussed, and you were correct to label it as a rant - but as has been demonstrated by the range and thoughtfulness of the discussion, you're not the only one thinking about it.


----------



## evenflow1121

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> there are many schools out there that seem to promote children at a very fast rate. there are some schools that I have seen that children as young as 8 years old have attained a black belt!! this bothers me very, very much.
> 
> *It bothers me as well, but there is a market for it, not necessarily a good or bad thing, there are adults that join martial arts with the aspirations of attaining a black belt in a very short time as well, its up to the individual. And to each his own, though I like you do not like this way either.*
> 
> there is a kid who rents mat time at dojang/jo (15, maybe 16 years old) who teaches a karate class. he is a 3rd dan blackbelt!!! this would be a little easier for me to deal with if the guy had good fighting ability, but he doesn't. it all just seems so horrible to me. I just sit there and look at his flyer and ask myself, "why?"
> 
> *Yet he rents space at your dojang, which means he must know something if you all are allowing him to teach there right?*
> 
> when i was 12, i was testing for my 2nd promotion and had to spar a kiddy blackbelt, he was about 10( not promoted at bb in our school). I put all of my skills into that match, and i really creamed the kid. why anyone want to even accept the rank of blackbelt if they know in their heart that they lack the skills?
> *
> Putting your ages aside, sometimes it is difficult accepting the fact that they lack skills: 1.) because the student may have trained very hard and may have had a poor teacher, and yet in his or her heart the student believes that he or she deserves a black belt, 2.) The student may be physically limited and may not be as mobile as an average person, yet puts in 110% of an effort, 3.) Different schools have different curricula does not mean that any one school is right or wrong this is up to the teacher and their students.  I trained 6 days a week for nearly 5 years to get my shodan, and I am sure that there are people that had to train twice as hard as I did to get theirs as well in other studios. Those are 3 reasons out of a million as to why, all is not black and white there are always gray areas.*
> 
> another thing i see now, OUT OF SHAPE INSTRUCTORS. now i understand if a person has past his/her prime and is now having to work a little harder to stay in shape and/or has medical problems, etc. but I am seeing a vast majority of instructors who just let themselves go! IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT MARTIAL ARTS. even if the instructor truly has mastered his/her art, they should still frequently practice it. I had one fellow instructor who opted not to take the adult class after teaching the kids classes, and for no good apparent reason, he rarely practiced.
> 
> *There are a such thing as lazy instructors, sure but not every overweight instructor is lazy or has let themselves go.  By the time you hit or begin to near 30, you will realize that your body will begin to change, your metabolism will slow down, you will also become less active somewhat, work pressures will get to you, stress will be a lot greater, and you will find that you are no longer that 17 year old tall flanky kid who fit into size 27 501 regulars.  Its part of growing up man, you cant help it, I am nearing 30 now, and I am a size 30 waist as opposed to 27 when I was prob your age, but I will never in my life be in the shape I was when I was 18, ever and I still work out to the same routine and eat pretty healthy; in fact healthier than when I was younger.  Let me give you two other examples, when I run on the threadmill, my left knee hurts like hell (never happenned when I was younger, my left knee also cracks now every now and then). Your body changes, it slows down a bit, those are all reasons.  *
> 
> another thing, I have lately been seeing this fad of the old, tattered-looking vintage blackbelt (the actual belt) on teenaged blackbelts. Im guessing this is supposed to give off the illusion that they have been a black belt for a long time. I have seen these on sale on different martial arts web-stores.
> and people wonder why so many Americanized martial arts are so watered down!!
> please, we need to stop celebrating mediocrity and take pride in our arts!
> 
> *sighs* thanks, I really needed to get that out
> 
> *Yes I totally agree with this stoned washed black belt concept, I am not a fan either, nor am I a fan of the camo or pink belt, but to each his own.*


----------



## The MMA kid!

has anyone else seen these old, vintage- blackbelts?


----------



## Sin

MMA kid titled this thread as a rant...Not an attack on anyones "Lifestyle" here on Martial Talk, because he most likely dosn't know many people here in real life.  I agree with you MMA kid, there are a lot of Mcdojos and hasbeens out there, but don't let that discourage you.  Also everyone If you are "over-weight" or "Out of Shape" and your not doing a thing about it....like dieting, working out, etc....To me thats just plain laziness.  I myself am out of shape, wouldn't say over weight, just need to tone up a bit...and I am doing something about it...I go to MA class work out there, and every morning before my shower I do 30 Crunch-bucks and 50 push-ups, and when the weathers nice...I go for a mile run...I do not consider myself to be lazy when I am on the regiment, and I have great respect for those of us who are Over-weight and they are trying there darndest to lose the poundage....
All in all, I got two things to say...Don't wear your heart out on your sleeve, MMAkid titled this as a rant and you enter at your own risk, and he was only  expressing his opinion so relax.  And 2...GREAT RESPECT to all those over-weight and doing something about it...I know how hard it is. ::bow::


----------



## Drac

evenflow1121Yes I totally agree with this stoned washed black belt concept[/quote said:
			
		

> You and me both..Be PROUD of your rank..Wearing something that looks like it was a tie down on a tractor trailer is insulting..My opinion..


----------



## bluemtn

Is there really a pink belt???  I've heard of/ seen camo, but PINK?  As said before:  to each his own...  We don't have to love it, though.


----------



## Kacey

tkdgirl said:
			
		

> Is there really a pink belt??? I've heard of/ seen camo, but PINK? As said before: to each his own... We don't have to love it, though.



I've never seen it as an actual rank, but I did know an instructor who kept one around for people who forgot their belts to wear... just so their tops would stay closed.  One of my students heard about this and offered to dye a spare white belt pink for just that purpose, but she hasn't gotten it done yet... but it could be fun when she does!


----------



## arnisador

Kacey said:
			
		

> I've never seen it as an actual rank, but I did know an instructor who kept one around for people who forgot their belts to wear...


 
Yeah, I know a BJJ instructor who does this.


----------



## tradrockrat

Without getting too far into the rant, I will say that I personally think schools that teach young students perform a very valuable service for our society, and I think children who are able to show the adult level commitment to earn rank deserve their belts.

I also think that there needs to be a clear understanding that 4-6 year olds don't earn the "same belts" as the youth classes, and the youth don't earn the "same belts" as the adult classes, but the earning of belts is something I have zero problem with.

As for overweight instructors, well there is overweight, then there is OVERWEIGHT.  I wouldn't feel comfortable teaching right now because injuries have me 30 pounds over weight, but does that mean I CAN'T teach?  Hell no!  I'm a teacher by profession (highschool) and damn good at it.  I am also (judging by parent responses) a very good MA instructor when I do teach, but physical fitness is very important to me and I will not put myself out there on the mat until this weight is gone.  I to have serious problems with FAT instructors, but a few pounds around the waist doesn't put me off in the least.


----------



## Monadnock

I wouldn't put much weight (no pun untended) on the relationship of how far a teacher tips the scales and his/her ability to teach.

99% of the "teachers" I have met need to get on the mat to "teach" me anything. A true teacher should be able to teach me something without having to get up out of his/her chair. There seems to be too much dependence on someone getting on the mat and doing tricks in order to appease students' entertainment desires.

Bottom line, a teacher will be able to teach you just as well, injured or not.


----------



## Sarah

Depends...people learn in different ways, one student may be fine with verbal instructions a description of the tech...Others may require a demonstration or need to have the move done on them to ensure they are doing it correctly...

I fall into the later, you can explain till your blue in the face....show me!

That being said, I do agree that a good instructor should be able to still teach while injured etc...as long as he has the assistance of a good senior to help demonstrate.


----------



## tradrockrat

Being a school teacher as well as a MA instructor, I have learned many valuble things in my studies that most MA instructiors never take the time to learn.  This is a huge mistake. 

Take, for example, what we are discussing right now - learning modalities. 
There is a WHOLE LOT of research and theories about learning modalities out there for an instructor to educate him or herself with.

A good teacher wil use all modalities in his / her lesson plans - and BTW, if your instructor doesn't have lessons planned in advance, they are wasting your time - literally, as they come up with off the cuff activities and repetitive exercises that don't build on previous training.

A brilliant man named Gardner listed and defined several learning modalities that we as educators need to account for in our teaching style. 
They are:
linguistic
logical
musical
spatial
kinesthetic
interpersonal
intrapersonal
naturalist.

If you are an instructor, and don't know the definition of these learning modalities and cannot recognize them in your students, I challenge you to educate yourself on them.  You will find that they greatly help in your every day teaching.


----------



## Grenadier

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> has anyone else seen these old, vintage- blackbelts?


 
Unfortunately, yes.  

Some kids will be wearing belts that are ragged, torn, etc.  While a few of them might have been given one of their instructors' old belts (a great honor), the vast majority of the kids wearing ragged black belts probably dumped theirs in the washer and dryer for dozens of cycles, or even took a metal file to their belts.  

Rather comical, indeed.  If there is embroidery on the belt, and the writing is in either Japanese Katakana or Korean Hangul, and if I know the kid's name, I can get a pretty good idea of whether the belt was a gift, or whether it was their own, abused belt.


----------



## ed-swckf

I really do fail to see what is wrong with an instructor being overweight or not in tip top condition.  Sure, if they were entering competitions they would need to be in shape but when you are instructing its a completely different game.  Teaching really is more about getting the best out of your students rather than the best out of yourself.  I mean, the best way i can think of looking at this is when you watch a heavy weight champion boxer you don't judge his ability by looking at the weedy old guy that trained him thats stood in his corner.


----------



## tradrockrat

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> I really do fail to see what is wrong with an instructor being overweight or not in tip top condition. Sure, if they were entering competitions they would need to be in shape but when you are instructing its a completely different game. Teaching really is more about getting the best out of your students rather than the best out of yourself. I mean, the best way i can think of looking at this is when you watch a heavy weight champion boxer you don't judge his ability by looking at the weedy old guy that trained him thats stood in his corner.


 
I personally think that there are two different levels of overwieght being refered to here.  A heavy set person may be an excellent teacher, a FAT MAN will not represent what I look for in an instructor.  Physical fitness is important to the entire philosophy of the martial arts.  Being fit doesn't mean you have to be ripped and 0% body fat, but if you refer to yourself as in shape because round is a shape - you're not acceptable to me.


----------



## terryl965

tradrockrat said:
			
		

> I personally think that there are two different levels of overwieght being refered to here. A heavy set person may be an excellent teacher, a FAT MAN will not represent what I look for in an instructor. Physical fitness is important to the entire philosophy of the martial arts. Being fit doesn't mean you have to be ripped and 0% body fat, but if you refer to yourself as in shape because round is a shape - you're not acceptable to me.


 
 Then I guess when or if you ever meet me you would walk out the door because I'm round, is this what you are saying. I cannot believe some people views about being trained by some one with a round body. So all my experience is out with the trash for my shape dictates that, well I have meet so many instructors who has that gym type body and they do not even understand why certain techs. are done, I guess they are to busy being at the gym working on the sculpture body of theres.
Terry


----------



## The MMA kid!

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Then I guess when or if you ever meet me you would walk out the door because I'm round, is this what you are saying. I cannot believe some people views about being trained by some one with a round body. So all my experience is out with the trash for my shape dictates that, well I have meet so many instructors who has that gym type body and they do not even understand why certain techs. are done, I guess they are to busy being at the gym working on the sculpture body of theres.
> Terry


 
good point, ive fought with muscle guys before that have no technique and glass jaws.


----------



## evenflow1121

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> good point, ive fought with muscle guys before that have no technique and glass jaws.


 
I totally agree, when I was younger my friends and I would plan out road trips.  And we would end up at all sorts of hill billy bars across the great State of Florida.  And let me tell you, they may not be much to look at, but boy can they fight.


----------



## tradrockrat

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Then I guess when or if you ever meet me you would walk out the door because I'm round, is this what you are saying. I cannot believe some people views about being trained by some one with a round body. So all my experience is out with the trash for my shape dictates that, well I have meet so many instructors who has that gym type body and they do not even understand why certain techs. are done, I guess they are to busy being at the gym working on the sculpture body of theres.
> Terry


 
Show me a pic of you, and I'll answer the question.  But in the meantime, do you consider yourself fit?  Are you physically able to demonstrate your techniques you're teaching?  Do you still train on your own?  If so, I seriously doubt your as round as you think - or more importantly, as round as I refer to when I say FAT MAN.  

I've seen instructors who are clearly obese and and quite as obviously no longer actively training or practicing their art.  Those are the people to whom I am refering to. Remember, in my post I said that I had no problem with instructors who carried a few around the waist - that's an inevitable result of aging.  A ripped and cut body only means that he works out.

For the record, I am anything but musclebound or ripped and have always carried extra weight except for the few years I was kickboxing and competing.  In fact my first post reflected that I won't step foot on the floor to teach right now myself! I sufferd a bad knee injury a while back and the pounds piled on.  I'm currently fighting to shed the weight, but YES a certain level of physical fitness is required before I will take an instructor seriously, and yes I don't care what he has learned in the past cause he obviouosly doesn't care about the present - which is what counts to me as a student.  He may know the secrets of the ancients, but if he doesn't care enough to stay healthy, then he sure ain't practicing them!  Notice I said "healthy", not "ripped and sculpted".

I sincerely doubt you fall into this category of instructor as your posts demonstrate a keen interest and passion for the martial arts, which I believe to to be incompatable with the type of instructor to which I am refering.


----------



## Sarah

The point I _*think*_ is being made here (of which I agree) is that there are instructors that 'look' out of shape (round) but can move incredibly well and are actually quite agile and fit, which of course would be evident from the first class you see...

Then there are instructors that have let themselves go (weather it be by choice or not) and are unfit, out of shape, do not maintain there own level of skill and are physically unable to demonstrate what they are teaching.

Personally I would not train under an instructor if they are unable to show me a tech, no matter how well they talk.

However, as I have said before, if an instructor is injured, they still maybe just as sufficient as long as they have some assistance for demonstrations.

So its more than just how you look...its how physically capable you are.


----------



## tradrockrat

Sarah said:
			
		

> The point I _*think*_ is being made here (of which I agree) is that there are instructors that 'look' out of shape (round) but can move incredibly well and are actually quite agile and fit, which of course would be evident from the first class you see...
> 
> Then there are instructors that have let themselves go (weather it be by choice or not) and are unfit, out of shape, do not maintain there own level of skill and are physically unable to demonstrate what they are teaching.
> 
> Personally I would not train under an instructor if they are unable to show me a tech, no matter how well they talk.
> 
> However, as I have said before, if an instructor is injured, they still maybe just as sufficient as long as they have some assistance for demonstrations.
> 
> So its more than just how you look...its how physically capable you are.


 
Thank you for being smarter than me and so eloquently stating what I was trying to say.  Wish I could have said it half as well the first post.


----------



## arnisador

Would you study Sumo from a fat man? Sure. I do think that much of it depends on how the instructor moves. I know some *BIG* guys who have adjusted their personal style for their size and can really rock. I know others who can barely move. If your art requires jump spinning kicks, it might be an issue. If you're a judoka, though, it could be an advantage (maybe).

I also agree that disease is a mitigating factor (e.g., look at Marty Manuel). Also, if the person is _not _an instructor, but is only training for his/her own benefit, then it's their business and I don't care.

But an overweight physician with a cigarette in his mouth is always a concern...but while the smoking is difficult to excuse, the weight might be due to a physical condition.


----------



## Sarah

arnisador said:
			
		

> Would you study Sumo from a fat man? Sure.


 
What you talking about...my Sumo instructor is a skinny white boy...LOL  :lol: 

You make a good point...some arts require size.


----------



## tradrockrat

arnisador said:
			
		

> Would you study Sumo from a fat man? Sure. I do think that much of it depends on how the instructor moves. I know some *BIG* guys who have adjusted their personal style for their size and can really rock. I know others who can barely move. If your art requires jump spinning kicks, it might be an issue. If you're a judoka, though, it could be an advantage (maybe).


 
I will admit that there are exceptions to every rule - and Sumo would be one of them.   But then again, if I'm not a big guy, would a martial art modified to work for big guys be something I'd want to learn?

Nevertheless, you have a valid point


----------



## terryl965

tradrockrat said:
			
		

> Show me a pic of you, and I'll answer the question. But in the meantime, do you consider yourself fit? Are you physically able to demonstrate your techniques you're teaching? Do you still train on your own? If so, I seriously doubt your as round as you think - or more importantly, as round as I refer to when I say FAT MAN.
> 
> I've seen instructors who are clearly obese and and quite as obviously no longer actively training or practicing their art. Those are the people to whom I am refering to. Remember, in my post I said that I had no problem with instructors who carried a few around the waist - that's an inevitable result of aging. A ripped and cut body only means that he works out.
> 
> For the record, I am anything but musclebound or ripped and have always carried extra weight except for the few years I was kickboxing and competing. In fact my first post reflected that I won't step foot on the floor to teach right now myself! I sufferd a bad knee injury a while back and the pounds piled on. I'm currently fighting to shed the weight, but YES a certain level of physical fitness is required before I will take an instructor seriously, and yes I don't care what he has learned in the past cause he obviouosly doesn't care about the present - which is what counts to me as a student. He may know the secrets of the ancients, but if he doesn't care enough to stay healthy, then he sure ain't practicing them! Notice I said "healthy", not "ripped and sculpted".
> 
> I sincerely doubt you fall into this category of instructor as your posts demonstrate a keen interest and passion for the martial arts, which I believe to to be incompatable with the type of instructor to which I am refering.


 
 All you need to do is look at my Aviator that is a picture of me with the twins and go to the Photo Gallery and look at all the pics. I have there as well. Yes I'm Fat 5'9'' 246lbs. that is fat but I still train and compete ay senior events all over the place, not trying to brag but i train atleast 4 hours everyday on techniques, unable to run anymore and thos damm oreo cookies are killing me, but we all have our weakness. Having corinari Valve disease there is only so much I can do anymore.* NOT TRYING TO MAKE EXCUSES, *just the facts.

Sorry the topic about obesity is killing me for it was not like this before the heart problem still kinda touchy over it as you can tell.

Your friend in the Art
Terry Lee Stoker


----------



## Jonathan Randall

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Sorry the topic about obesity is killing me for it was not like this before the heart problem still kinda touchy over it as you can tell.
> 
> Your friend in the Art
> Terry Lee Stoker


 
Don't worry for an instant if some young person without life experience judges you as a result of a few extra pounds due to a heart attack! Take care of yourself and your health first. It doesn't matter in the slightest if medical restrictions keep you from slimming down to a muscle magazine cover model. You have my respect based upon the knowledge you have demonstrated throughout your posts, and I believe my respect at thirty-eight is far more valuable (and informed) than it was at 19 or 20.

I'm not knocking the thread starter once again - he's apologized for his blanket statements - but the title of the thread itself is not very kind. This has not been the greatest thread. However, I don't want it to die with anyone feeling run down because, despite their knowledge and dedication to the arts, medical restrictions prohibit them from the same level of aerobic activity (running, etc.) that they had at 20.


----------



## tradrockrat

terryl965 said:
			
		

> All you need to do is look at my Aviator that is a picture of me with the twins and go to the Photo Gallery and look at all the pics. I have there as well. Yes I'm Fat 5'9'' 246lbs. that is fat but I still train and compete ay senior events all over the place, not trying to brag but i train atleast 4 hours everyday on techniques, unable to run anymore and thos damm oreo cookies are killing me, but we all have our weakness. Having corinari Valve disease there is only so much I can do anymore.* NOT TRYING TO MAKE EXCUSES, *just the facts.
> 
> Sorry the topic about obesity is killing me for it was not like this before the heart problem still kinda touchy over it as you can tell.
> 
> Your friend in the Art
> Terry Lee Stoker



There is no need to apologize for your beliefs and feelings, that's what the board is for - sharing this stuff.  Also, thanks for pointing out the Photo Gallery - I had never been there.

Finally, I am sorry to hear about your misfortune and I salute you for continuing to work so hard at your art.  Now I REALLY wish I was as eloquent as Sarah.  It may have saved us some trouble.

Anyway, your post just confirms to me that you are not one of the instructors that I mean when I talk about this, and as Sarah said, I'm sure that just watching a class would make that clear to any prospective student.


----------



## ed-swckf

tradrockrat said:
			
		

> I personally think that there are two different levels of overwieght being refered to here. A heavy set person may be an excellent teacher, a FAT MAN will not represent what I look for in an instructor. Physical fitness is important to the entire philosophy of the martial arts. Being fit doesn't mean you have to be ripped and 0% body fat, but if you refer to yourself as in shape because round is a shape - you're not acceptable to me.


 
With all respect, that is ridiculous.  A lot of great teachers are far from the best practicioners -  they are completely different skill sets.  Maybe its completely different in your art and you need them do be at a particular level of fittness which begs the question, where do you draw the line?  Where do you say that you are too fat to teach anything?  

Why exactly can a fat person not teach you anything in any circumstance?  I mean its completely up to you who you choose as a acceptable teacher but i am interested to find out why you feel they aren't a worthy teacher for you.  I mean my teacher isn't exactly overweight however he is old and has a belly (at least since christmas) and also suffers from a back injury, he's not at all as flexible or suple as he would be but his knowledge is vast and he has a great skill of conveying that knowledge to others.  But i'm guessing he wouldn't be a suitible teacher for you based on the things i mentioned about him, or is there some other reason the a "fat man" isn't a worthy teacher?


----------



## ed-swckf

tradrockrat said:
			
		

> Show me a pic of you, and I'll answer the question. But in the meantime, do you consider yourself fit? Are you physically able to demonstrate your techniques you're teaching? Do you still train on your own? If so, I seriously doubt your as round as you think - or more importantly, as round as I refer to when I say FAT MAN.


 
I just wanted to know how well the techniques need to be displayed for you to learn them?  Does this also mean that, as someone gets older and slowly looses the crispness of certain techniques that may require a certain ammount of flexibilty, older teachers are also not a worthy teacher?  Like i said before, the guy in the corner that trains the heavyweight boxer cannot do what the boxer does but he does enable the boxer to do it.




			
				tradrockrat said:
			
		

> I've seen instructors who are clearly obese and and quite as obviously no longer actively training or practicing their art. Those are the people to whom I am refering to. Remember, in my post I said that I had no problem with instructors who carried a few around the waist - that's an inevitable result of aging. A ripped and cut body only means that he works out.


 
Ok, its hard for me still to tell where the line is drawn physically but perhaps you are refering to a catogory of people i have no experience of.  I still feel that what you can do physically doesn't dictate what you can teach and get out of others physically.  That is something i see being true of so much physical activity.



			
				tradrockrat said:
			
		

> For the record, I am anything but musclebound or ripped and have always carried extra weight except for the few years I was kickboxing and competing. In fact my first post reflected that I won't step foot on the floor to teach right now myself! I sufferd a bad knee injury a while back and the pounds piled on. I'm currently fighting to shed the weight, but YES a certain level of physical fitness is required before I will take an instructor seriously, and yes I don't care what he has learned in the past cause he obviouosly doesn't care about the present - which is what counts to me as a student. He may know the secrets of the ancients, but if he doesn't care enough to stay healthy, then he sure ain't practicing them! Notice I said "healthy", not "ripped and sculpted".


 
But that means you would accept a teacher that can prance about in front of you and look good but really has a lack of knowledge of exactly what he is teaching and just works more on getting you to copy what you see.  Personally if a big guy has been able to make a martial art work with his size, which i'm assuming can be a lot of hardwork then maybe he has gained a greater understanding of how it works - i know you don't care about any of that though.  Perhaps it vary's with different arts and at the end of the day its your opinion and you are welcome to it my personal opinion is if someone can teach me something then i am open to it, there size doesn't matter.  If it turns out that what they teach me is crap then again i don't put that down to their size.


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## Sarah

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> With all respect, that is ridiculous. A lot of great teachers are far from the best practicioners - they are completely different skill sets. Maybe its completely different in your art and you need them do be at a particular level of fittness which begs the question, where do you draw the line? Where do you say that you are too fat to teach anything?
> 
> Why exactly can a fat person not teach you anything in any circumstance? I mean its completely up to you who you choose as a acceptable teacher but i am interested to find out why you feel they aren't a worthy teacher for you. I mean my teacher isn't exactly overweight however he is old and has a belly (at least since christmas) and also suffers from a back injury, he's not at all as flexible or suple as he would be but his knowledge is vast and he has a great skill of conveying that knowledge to others. But i'm guessing he wouldn't be a suitible teacher for you based on the things i mentioned about him, or is there some other reason the a "fat man" isn't a worthy teacher?


 
Once again I think you may be taking what *tradrockrat *said in a different way to what (I believe) he intended...it is not about focusing on the persons 'fat' its about why they got to that point...ie; not keeping up there own training and level of skill.

Tradrockrat has agreed that an overweight instructor is not a bad instructor...its the ones that lack physical ability in their arts.

Unfortunatly this is a sensitive subject, and people can be ofended from it...but it is true that there are instructors out there that are not interested in keeping up there own knowledge and skill level and instead cash in on the fact they obtained a black belt 100 yrs ago but have not since done any learning, and chances are some of them may be slim.

BTW Terry...you are hardly 'fat'! You shouldnt judge yourself so harshly...im sure your wife and kids love you no matter what, and that is what's important!


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## Makalakumu

We love you too, Terry!!!!


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## terryl965

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> We love you too, Terry!!!!


 
 Thanks upnorthkyosa and Sarah but by the satndards set forth I'm overwieght do I care not really I'll loose it when it happens. I know what I can and what I can't do and when the meet and greet comes this year i hope to be in tip top shape, of course to me that shape is round:ultracool .

I find it humerious at best when people talk about who and what they will train with, I know I'll train with anybody that has knowledge to past down to me that I did not know in the first place or maybe even different appoaches to techs. that I was not sure about, but that is me a Knowledge seeker always has been always will be.

Terry


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## arnisador

If that's you in the picture, I don't get what the fuss is about.


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## The MMA kid!

where can i find more information about the meet and greet?


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## Sarah

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29997&highlight=Meet+Greet


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## ed-swckf

Sarah said:
			
		

> Once again I think you may be taking what *tradrockrat *said in a different way to what (I believe) he intended...it is not about focusing on the persons 'fat' its about why they got to that point...ie; not keeping up there own training and level of skill.
> 
> Tradrockrat has agreed that an overweight instructor is not a bad instructor...its the ones that lack physical ability in their arts.
> 
> Unfortunatly this is a sensitive subject, and people can be ofended from it...but it is true that there are instructors out there that are not interested in keeping up there own knowledge and skill level and instead cash in on the fact they obtained a black belt 100 yrs ago but have not since done any learning, and chances are some of them may be slim.
> 
> BTW Terry...you are hardly 'fat'! You shouldnt judge yourself so harshly...im sure your wife and kids love you no matter what, and that is what's important!


 
Yeah but like i said, teaching someone to do things doesn't mean you still need to be able to do them yourself.  The understanding of a technique doesn't get conveyed by how well a teacher can preform it but rather how well they can teach it.  I mean fair enough if thats what you all believe but personally i don't, i mean the style i train is a little different from your more acrobatic stuff but then again a know a overweight gymnastics coach!?  To me the ability to teach takes precedence over physical ability, maybe its just me?


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## Sarah

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> Yeah but like i said, teaching someone to do things doesn't mean you still need to be able to do them yourself. The understanding of a technique doesn't get conveyed by how well a teacher can preform it but rather how well they can teach it. I mean fair enough if thats what you all believe but personally i don't, i mean the style i train is a little different from your more acrobatic stuff but then again a know a overweight gymnastics coach!? To me the ability to teach takes precedence over physical ability, maybe its just me?


 

I agree with your point, however I do think it is important that an instructor still has some level of passion about his own learning and continues to educate him/herself in their chosen art, and to do that (I would think) some level of fitness and physical ability is required.  Im sure most of us have come across the instructor that sits on his butt because he obtained a BB years ago but has done nothing since.

I take instructions very well, in fact my old instructor said to me I take instruction to the letter. But I would still like to have my (main) instructor be able to get up and show me a tech rather than just try and explain it to me.

However, like Terry said, I would listen to ideas and theory from any experiences MA'ist, it is interested what different people have to say...but when it comes to the practical application of a tech, I want my instructor to be able to do it.

I have no idea how it works in gymnastics etc, im sure the coaches must be very good at explaining things, but you make a good point with that example.


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## tradrockrat

Well, let this be the last post from me on this subject.  Obviously I am doing a poor job explaining myself.  What I was trying to illustrate is that "fat" has nothing to do with it, except in that it CAN be a symptom of the real issue.  That is why I said there is fat and there is FAT.  I mean that one is a result of age, accident, infirmity, injury, what have you, the other is from laziness and sloth.  This difference is perfectly clear to anyone who sits through a single class session when researching a school.  This is my point.

A few examples -   Sensei Hopkins, a personal friend recently passed away. He was in his 80's, and he was a master of jiu jitsu and a master teacher.  He was slow moving and looked every day of his age, but he could still do knuckle pushups, and earned a blackbelt in the ABA shortly before his death, testing better than men in their fifties.  You wouldn't know that until you saw him teach, but when he did it was unmistakable.

My instructor for most of my life - John Collins.  He was overweight, two plastic knees, but walked everyday, trained as much as he could, and I have never met a better teacher of Bando - bar none.  There was a time when he wasn't able to walk because they were replacing his knees.  We trained in chairs together and developed some intreresting python (grappling) entries out of a seated position.  He never stopped training.

Another MA teacher (no name this time) nearby where I lived was a high level blackbelt.  He sweated walking up stairs, sat when he taught, didn't demonstrate techniques unless the student was absolutely lost, and weighed almost 400 pounds.  His students were very sloppy, but he promoted them anyway.  Now he knew TONS of facts and tecniques - talked about them all the time when people should have been training - but honestly, would you train with him?  In the five years he used the same facilities I trained in, I never once saw a student stay with him to BB.

These are people that I have trained with and around.  It seems that several people have been unable to get past the word "Fat" in my posts, and that I simply have been communicating poorly.  For that I apologize.  But in fact, the super fit  "dancer" who really doesn't teach substance is also someone I would avoid.

And for my last point, I'd like to state that I absolutely understand the power of good teachers and their abilties to teach.  Teaching is the highest calling in my opinion, and a great teacher can do more for his / her students than perhaps even you all understand. They can literally save lives and "souls".  And, in fact, this is WHY I'm so adamant about a teacher living his / her word.  _*If you're going to demand something from your students you had better walk the walk with them!*_  If you don't you may be doing more harm than good, and that's literally a blasphemy to me.  "Do as I say, not as I do?"  I don't think so!  I guarantee it doesn't work, no matter how much they know, and no matter how talented a learner you are.  Martial Arts are a physical pursuit, a Martial artist should always be working to the utmost of their physical abilities.


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## terryl965

tradrockrat said:
			
		

> Well, let this be the last post from me on this subject. Obviously I am doing a poor job explaining myself. What I was trying to illustrate is that "fat" has nothing to do with it, except in that it CAN be a symptom of the real issue. That is why I said there is fat and there is FAT. I mean that one is a result of age, accident, infirmity, injury, what have you, the other is from laziness and sloth. This difference is perfectly clear to anyone who sits through a single class session when researching a school. This is my point.
> 
> A few examples - Sensei Hopkins, a personal friend recently passed away. He was in his 80's, and he was a master of jiu jitsu and a master teacher. He was slow moving and looked every day of his age, but he could still do knuckle pushups, and earned a blackbelt in the ABA shortly before his death, testing better than men in their fifties. You wouldn't know that until you saw him teach, but when he did it was unmistakable.
> 
> My instructor for most of my life - John Collins. He was overweight, two plastic knees, but walked everyday, trained as much as he could, and I have never met a better teacher of Bando - bar none. There was a time when he wasn't able to walk because they were replacing his knees. We trained in chairs together and developed some intreresting python (grappling) entries out of a seated position. He never stopped training.
> 
> Another MA teacher (no name this time) nearby where I lived was a high level blackbelt. He sweated walking up stairs, sat when he taught, didn't demonstrate techniques unless the student was absolutely lost, and weighed almost 400 pounds. His students were very sloppy, but he promoted them anyway. Now he knew TONS of facts and tecniques - talked about them all the time when people should have been training - but honestly, would you train with him? In the five years he used the same facilities I trained in, I never once saw a student stay with him to BB.
> 
> These are people that I have trained with and around. It seems that several people have been unable to get past the word "Fat" in my posts, and that I simply have been communicating poorly. For that I apologize. But in fact, the super fit "dancer" who really doesn't teach substance is also someone I would avoid.
> 
> And for my last point, I'd like to state that I absolutely understand the power of good teachers and their abilties to teach. Teaching is the highest calling in my opinion, and a great teacher can do more for his / her students than perhaps even you all understand. They can literally save lives and "souls". And, in fact, this is WHY I'm so adamant about a teacher living his / her word. _*If you're going to demand something from your students you had better walk the walk with them!*_ If you don't you may be doing more harm than good, and that's literally a blasphemy to me. "Do as I say, not as I do?" I don't think so! I guarantee it doesn't work, no matter how much they know, and no matter how talented a learner you are. Martial Arts are a physical pursuit, a Martial artist should always be working to the utmost of their physical abilities.


 
What a great post so well written and it really put a different perspective on this thread.:asian:
Terry


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## Sarah

terryl965 said:
			
		

> What a great post so well written and it really put a different perspective on this thread.:asian:
> Terry


 
Agreed...


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## ed-swckf

tradrockrat said:
			
		

> Well, let this be the last post from me on this subject. Obviously I am doing a poor job explaining myself. What I was trying to illustrate is that "fat" has nothing to do with it, except in that it CAN be a symptom of the real issue. That is why I said there is fat and there is FAT. I mean that one is a result of age, accident, infirmity, injury, what have you, the other is from laziness and sloth. This difference is perfectly clear to anyone who sits through a single class session when researching a school. This is my point.
> 
> A few examples - Sensei Hopkins, a personal friend recently passed away. He was in his 80's, and he was a master of jiu jitsu and a master teacher. He was slow moving and looked every day of his age, but he could still do knuckle pushups, and earned a blackbelt in the ABA shortly before his death, testing better than men in their fifties. You wouldn't know that until you saw him teach, but when he did it was unmistakable.
> 
> My instructor for most of my life - John Collins. He was overweight, two plastic knees, but walked everyday, trained as much as he could, and I have never met a better teacher of Bando - bar none. There was a time when he wasn't able to walk because they were replacing his knees. We trained in chairs together and developed some intreresting python (grappling) entries out of a seated position. He never stopped training.
> 
> Another MA teacher (no name this time) nearby where I lived was a high level blackbelt. He sweated walking up stairs, sat when he taught, didn't demonstrate techniques unless the student was absolutely lost, and weighed almost 400 pounds. His students were very sloppy, but he promoted them anyway. Now he knew TONS of facts and tecniques - talked about them all the time when people should have been training - but honestly, would you train with him? In the five years he used the same facilities I trained in, I never once saw a student stay with him to BB.
> 
> These are people that I have trained with and around. It seems that several people have been unable to get past the word "Fat" in my posts, and that I simply have been communicating poorly. For that I apologize. But in fact, the super fit "dancer" who really doesn't teach substance is also someone I would avoid.
> 
> And for my last point, I'd like to state that I absolutely understand the power of good teachers and their abilties to teach. Teaching is the highest calling in my opinion, and a great teacher can do more for his / her students than perhaps even you all understand. They can literally save lives and "souls". And, in fact, this is WHY I'm so adamant about a teacher living his / her word. _*If you're going to demand something from your students you had better walk the walk with them!*_ If you don't you may be doing more harm than good, and that's literally a blasphemy to me. "Do as I say, not as I do?" I don't think so! I guarantee it doesn't work, no matter how much they know, and no matter how talented a learner you are. Martial Arts are a physical pursuit, a Martial artist should always be working to the utmost of their physical abilities.


 
I understand what you are saying but it really has nothing to do with fat, you are saying you are against sloppy instructors who no longer practice there art due to laziness and are just riding off what they once achieved years ago.  People don't have to be fat to represent those negative attributes at all, and as we have all agreed you can be fat and carry none of those negative attributes.  We should also agree that you can be of a slighter build and still represent exactly what it is you are against, if you do agree with that then the fat element becomes pretty much irrelevent to what it is you and i are against.


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## The MMA kid!

I have had a fellow instructor (who is no longer teaching at our school) who was only 20 years old, and was already living in the past. He constantly boasted that he had won many tournaments and said he has won national tournaments. he also said that he recieved a back injury during one of the matches from a roundhouse kick to his lower back. after taking about 2 years off, naturally he was greatly out of shape. He was a good kid's instructor on some notes, but he was criticized for only wanting to spar with lower belts, (not including me, he was a 3rd degree I was a 1st) He took only one adult class but only half of it. 

what i am trying to say is that once someone gets to a certain level, (even if he has had an injury) he already took on what I see many instructors do, they stop challenging themselves and sit in the groove of everyday laziness. and only at 20 years old!!! 

btw, he had already recooperated from his injury, but still decided to stop his training. (but told the children how hard he trains and how hardcore he was)

I don't even think he was a valid 3rd dan blackbelt, I spoke to his Sabumnin via e-mail and he told me he was only a reccomendation belt! but thats another thread.


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## Ignignokt

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> I understand what you are saying but it really has nothing to do with fat, you are saying you are against sloppy instructors who no longer practice there art due to laziness and are just riding off what they once achieved years ago.  People don't have to be fat to represent those negative attributes at all, and as we have all agreed you can be fat and carry none of those negative attributes.  We should also agree that you can be of a slighter build and still represent exactly what it is you are against, if you do agree with that then the fat element becomes pretty much irrelevent to what it is you and i are against.


This is how I read it too. I don't understand where the offense was made. Here is how I interpreted the original post as opposed to the way Savage did (no offense to Savage):

*there are many schools out there that seem to promote children at a very fast rate. there are some schools that I have seen that children as young as 8 years old have attained a black belt!! this bothers me very, very much.*

Too many kids are being promoted before they are skilled enough.

*there is a kid who rents mat time at dojang/jo (15, maybe 16 years old) who teaches a karate class. he is a 3rd dan blackbelt!!!*

An example of a kid who was promoted too easily

*this would be a little easier for me to deal with if the guy had good fighting ability, but he doesn't. it all just seems so horrible to me. I just sit there and look at his flyer and ask myself, "why?"*

It's a shame that some people who obviously don't have a deep respect for the art choose to represent the art.

*when i was 12, i was testing for my 2nd promotion and had to spar a kiddy blackbelt, he was about 10( not promoted at bb in our school). I put all of my skills into that match, and i really creamed the kid.* 

Another example of kids being promoted too easily.

*why anyone want to even accept the rank of blackbelt if they know in their heart that they lack the skills?*

A rhetorical question pointing out that there are people that don't have the respect that they should for the art.

*another thing i see now, OUT OF SHAPE INSTRUCTORS. now i understand if a person has past his/her prime and is now having to work a little harder to stay in shape and/or has medical problems, etc. but I am seeing a vast majority of instructors who just let themselves go! IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT MARTIAL ARTS. even if the instructor truly has mastered his/her art, they should still frequently practice it. I had one fellow instructor who opted not to take the adult class after teaching the kids classes, and for no good apparent reason, he rarely practiced.* 

It's disappointing to see so many instructors that don't even care.



I won't say anything about the breakdown of the response post, but it also seems to be a misunderstanding.

I really don't think that the original post should have offended anyone.

Sorry if I came along a little late in the conversation. I don't mean to concern myself with other people's business, I just thought that The MMA kid deserved a defense.


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## The MMA kid!

I appreciate it very much, thanks.

remembering this thread, I am STILL very much bothered by this growing epidemic about quick promotions and black belts who no longer practice.

Im sorry, but I *DO NOT *consider teaching as training.

sure, they say the best way to learn is to teach, but this is not the same as training IMO.

watching class is not training.
telling people to train is not training.
getting dirty with the rest of the students every once in a while is training.

I'm stating my honest opinion here, it may not be politically correct but it is just something I can't stop myself from noticing.


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## Hand Sword




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## Ignignokt




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## terryl965

MMAKId
watching class is not training.
telling people to train is not training.
getting dirty with the rest of the students every once in a while is training.

I'm stating my honest opinion here, it may not be politically correct but it is just something I can't stop myself from noticing.

Let me ask you a question how does what someone else do effect your training, I would say it dose'nt.
Next how is it when someone runs there school how does it effect you, same answer it does not.

So why does it brother you?
Does it brother you about tthe poverty there is here in America and the world?
Does it brother you that 35% of all childern graduating from high school read on a fifth grade level?
Does it brother you our troops is fighting a war we can't win?

Of course it does but not to the extrinct of a Instructor that does not train anymore! Well here goes Head coaches in Pro sports don't train anymore for competition and we still have respect for them but because they are teaching MA, they have to be all and mighty!

MMAKID I have always respected you and you me I hope, there is more than physical training going on in a Dojang, at some point everybody changes from the physical to more of the emotional aspect to training, please keep that in mind, That is all thank you for reading.
Terry


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## The MMA kid!

Ofcourse there are more important things to worry about other than instructors who no longer train. I didn't mean to offend anyone. 

Instructors that have stopped training does not affect MY training, but it hinders the progress of the art IMO.

I understand the "all and Mighty" and for those who have stopped training because of different barriers.

but my complaint is not toward those who have become unable to practice, but to those who REFUSE to practice. there is a difference.


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## Marginal

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> what i am trying to say is that once someone gets to a certain level, (even if he has had an injury) he already took on what I see many instructors do, they stop challenging themselves and sit in the groove of everyday laziness. and only at 20 years old!!!


 
Sometimes, they don't even bother to get to any level at all.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1948568831714048108&q=worst+mma+fight


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## terryl965

Marginal said:
			
		

> Sometimes, they don't even bother to get to any level at all.
> 
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1948568831714048108&q=worst+mma+fight


 
Marginal now that video was excellent towrds this thread, in this case the overwieght person cannot even defend themself. Now that was bad.
MMAKID with that as an example you are right .:asian:
Terry


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## Nemesis

That wasn't bad, that was just sad, he didn't even threw a punch. He had no busines being in that ring.


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## Carol

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> Ofcourse there are more important things to worry about other than instructors who no longer train. I didn't mean to offend anyone.
> 
> Instructors that have stopped training does not affect MY training, but it hinders the progress of the art IMO.
> 
> I understand the "all and Mighty" and for those who have stopped training because of different barriers.
> 
> but my complaint is not toward those who have become unable to practice, but to those who REFUSE to practice. there is a difference.


 
Not sure if I see it the same way.  

Personally, I think every student's path is their own, even if that student is sometimes called an instructor by someone else.


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## Bigshadow

Marginal said:
			
		

> Sometimes, they don't even bother to get to any level at all.
> 
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1948568831714048108&q=worst+mma+fight


WTF?  That was shameful on both of thier parts!  Seriously, was that a real pride MMA match?


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## The MMA kid!

i seriously doubt it. it looked like a bunch of hicks found a ring and decided to have a little get together...


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## Bigshadow

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> i seriously doubt it. it looked like a bunch of hicks found a ring and decided to have a little get together...



Whatever it was, it was pitiful!


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## Marginal

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> WTF? That was shameful on both of thier parts! Seriously, was that a real pride MMA match?


 
Looked like a small local US based show. (To make it even stranger, Jeremy Horn's reffing.)


----------

