# Need help finding a school that teach japanese jujutsu or combo of japanese jujutsu and aikido.



## moonhill99

My family and I will be relocating to Florida soon to find a job in Miami or Tampa area and looking for a martial arts school that teach japanese jujutsu or combo of  japanese jujutsu and aikido.

I found some schools but they seem McDojo and some other good schools that are not in the area.

This is a Japanese jujutsu school in Miami but it looks sorta of McDojo
Bushido Florida Dojo Contact


And this on in Miami. That seems like it may be good and less McDojo.
Miyama-ryu Ju-jutsu of Miami - About Us 


And this one in Hialeah close to to Miami and one in Hollywood and Davie.

Seems disorganized,overcrowded on the mat, people working way too close to one other and many different uniforms.

May be McDojo.
Atemi-Ryu Ju-Jitsu Home


This one Bushido Knights Ryumore in ‪Dania Beach north of Miami‬

‪It looks odd and sorta of almost ninja like‬
‪http://www.bushidoknights.com/‬





This is in Tampa bay area.  It looks very good a very good web sites and Affiliated schools.

Looks very good.
Tatsumaki Jujutsu Academy Tatsumaki Dojo
Tatsumaki Jujutsu Academy Tatsumaki Dojo



And this one here looks very good

The only problem it is in Boca Raton not any where close to Miami or Tampa it is well north of  Fort Lauderdale.

Aiki Combatives looks very good.
http://www.aikicombatives.com/


Out of all the schools I found so far the Aiki Combatives in Boca Raton  and  the one in Tampa seem most interesting for me and best looking.  And may be Miyama Ryu Combat Ju-jutsu one.

It would be too long of a drive from Miami to Boca Raton well north of  Fort lauderdale. And drive from Miami to Tampa would be out of question.

I do like Miami over any other city in Florida so would like good schools similar to that in the Miami and Fort Lauderdale area.


Aiki Combatives one in Boca Raton is too far of drive from Miami.


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## Hanzou

Oh boy... Chris Parker is going to have a field day if he sees this thread... 

Personally, it would be none of the above. Something about the American Classical Jujutsu scene just gives me hives.  Not saying there's not some good ones out there, but man, some of those schools just scream B.S. all over it.

If someone was searching for a Jujutsu system, I'd tell them to either do Judo, Bjj, or Aikido (and there's some VERY good schools down in Southern Florida) before investing their time and energy into a "classical" Jujutsu school here in the states. So many of them have this air of the instructor studying Judo, Karate, some random Jujutsu system, and then claiming the title of Soke and saying that they're performing traditional Japanese Jujutsu. That school that you said "looks good" is a prime example of what I'm talking about.

In the end though, its your dollar and your time. Visit each school, and see which one suits your needs best.

Good luck in your search.


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## Tony Dismukes

moonhill99 said:


> This is a Japanese jujutsu school in Miami but it looks sorta of McDojo
> Bushido Florida Dojo Contact



Don't see anything particularly McDojo-ish about this one. The jujutsu system in question is a modern eclectic system. It supposedly has a Japanese founder, but it still probably has more in common with modern eclectic Western jujutsu systems than it does with classical Japanese jujutsu. The instructor's 6th dan in the Kodokan is a good sign. My biggest objection is that they only have two classes per week.




moonhill99 said:


> And this on in Miami. That seems like it may be good and less McDojo.
> Miyama-ryu Ju-jutsu of Miami - About Us



Miyama Ryu is a modern eclectic Western jujutsu system. I think elder999 may have some experience with that if I remember correctly.



moonhill99 said:


> May be McDojo.
> Atemi-Ryu Ju-Jitsu Home



Atemi Ryu is another modern Western eclectic system. I don't much about it, but the videos don't look very impressive from my perspective.



moonhill99 said:


> It looks odd and sorta of almost ninja like‬
> ‪http://www.bushidoknights.com/‬



Whatever that is, it's definitely not Japanese jujutsu. From the video, it looks like the instructor may be drawing more as much from FMA as anything else.



moonhill99 said:


> This is in Tampa bay area. It looks very good a very good web sites and Affiliated schools.
> 
> Looks very good.
> Tatsumaki Jujutsu Academy Tatsumaki Dojo
> Tatsumaki Jujutsu Academy Tatsumaki Dojo



Another modern eclectic Western system. I can't find any info on the history, but it looks like the techniques are mostly derived from judo and aikido. Mr. Taylor's technique in the videos looks significantly better than what I saw in the videos for the previous schools.



moonhill99 said:


> Aiki Combatives looks very good.
> http://www.aikicombatives.com/



Another modern eclectic Western system. I don't actually see that much aikido in it. Looks more like  kung-fu striking missed with submission wrestling.


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## jks9199

Perhaps it would be beneficial to redefine your search. What are you after, without regard to names or styles,?  Are you looking for locks and holds, throws, strikes?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## moonhill99

What is wrong with American Classical Jujutsu?  Or the difference of American Classical Jujutsu,modern eclectic Western jujutsu system vs traditional Japanese Jujutsu.


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## Tony Dismukes

moonhill99 said:


> What is wrong with American Classical Jujutsu?  Or the difference of American Classical Jujutsu,modern eclectic Western jujutsu system vs traditional Japanese Jujutsu.


I'm not sure what you mean by "American Classical Jujutsu." _Any_ American system of jujutsu is a modern, eclectic form. Typically such systems will have roots in judo and/or aikido, but they may also include elements from karate, kung fu, arnis, and who knows what else. 

There's nothing inherently wrong with such systems, but you said you were specifically looking for Japanese jujutsu, so I thought I should point out that most of these schools don't really fall into that category.


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## Hanzou

moonhill99 said:


> What is wrong with American Classical Jujutsu?  Or the difference of American Classical Jujutsu,modern eclectic Western jujutsu system vs traditional Japanese Jujutsu.



As Tony said, there's nothing inherently wrong with American Classical Jujutsu, it just appears from what you're looking for that schools like the ones you linked probably isn't what you're looking for because they aren't really classical Japanese JJ schools. They're eclectic mixtures of modern styles that pick up the Jujutsu moniker because they want to appear traditional, or they have a desire to revert the modern styles they learned back to their more traditional roots.

For example, a guy studies Aikido and Karate, and eventually achieves instructor rank in one or both styles. Well, he may just merge the two styles together and say he's performing an Aiki-jutsu. He may be a competent instructor teaching you great martial arts, but he's not really teaching you traditional Japanese jujutsu. I personally wouldn't practice in such schools because I don't believe a person can master 5-7 different, unrelated arts, much less smash them together into a competent fighting system.

I also don't personally like the misrepresentation. If you studied Judo, Karate, and Kobudo, why are you claiming to be teaching traditional Jujutsu? Why are you calling yourself Soke? Such practices simply rub me the wrong way.

Personally, if I were in your position, I would look for a good Aikido school (and that shouldn't be too hard to find in Southern Florida). Aikido offers you the standing locks and holds you'd expect from Jujutsu, but also offers you a lot Japanese culture which I think is what you're looking for. Its a purely Japanese art with direct links to Japan and Japanese Jujutsu, and several instructors in that region are respected members of global Aikido federations.

If you're looking for more rough and tumble grappling, there's always Judo or Bjj.


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## moonhill99

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "American Classical Jujutsu." _Any_ American system of jujutsu is a modern, eclectic form. Typically such systems will have roots in judo and/or aikido, but they may also include elements from karate, kung fu, arnis, and who knows what else.
> 
> There's nothing inherently wrong with such systems, but you said you were specifically looking for Japanese jujutsu, so I thought I should point out that most of these schools don't really fall into that category.




If I understand it right there is two types of Japanese jujutsu the modern one and the old one. But Japanese jujutsu I think has over 600 styles and each school may modify it some what. So many Japanese jujutsu styles and modification of it you could not learn it all.

Is the modern Japanese jujutsu a bit more striking and some judo and some aikido in it where the old one was opposite of this.

*There's nothing inherently wrong with such systems, but you said you were specifically looking for Japanese jujutsu, so I thought I should point out that most of these schools don't really fall into that category.*

aikido is soft art and so well it nice I was looking for Japanese jujutsu a bit more harder and more strikes and throws,locks and take towns.

 If traditional Japanese Jujutsu is more softer and less strikes ,throws and take downs than I will go for the modern one.


* Perhaps it would be beneficial to redefine your search. What are you after, without regard to names or styles,? Are you looking for locks and holds, throws, strikes?*


 I need to understand traditional Japanese Jujutsu vs modern Japanese Jujutsu one. The videos I was looking on the internet may be modern one.

Now I'm more confused with traditional Japanese Jujutsu vs modern one. If the traditional Japanese Jujutsu is softer less throws, take downs and strikes I will go with modern one.


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## Tony Dismukes

moonhill99 said:


> If I understand it right there is two types of Japanese jujutsu the modern one and the old one. But Japanese jujutsu I think has over 600 styles and each school may modify it some what. So many Japanese jujutsu styles and modification of it you could not learn it all.
> 
> Is the modern Japanese jujutsu a bit more striking and some judo and some aikido in it where the old one was opposite of this.



Not exactly. Chris will probably be along in a while to give more details from the traditionalist point of view, but I'll do my best to provide a summary until he gets here.

Jujutsu is a large, extended family of martial arts containing considerable variation. The earliest forms were probably intended for armored grappling on the battlefield, but most of the extant classical forms were developed during the Edo period, which was an era of (relative) peace. Some were developed for members of the samurai class as a supplement to their weapons training, others may have been intended for civilian self-defense purposes. In some cases the jujutsu represented a complete art in its own right, in other cases it was just a part of a larger curriculum. Some forms included striking. Some forms included weaponry. In general, the primary focus is on unarmed grappling.

Although there is considerable variation between styles, the schools developed in this time period share certain ideologies and training methodologies common to Japanese martial arts of the time period, which are collectively called koryū arts. Chris can go into more detail concerning the variation and the commonalities, but I will note that the primary form of training in these arts is two-person kata,

After the Meiji restoration (1868), the classical forms of martial arts largely fell out of favor as Japan moved towards modernization and the older martial arts were seen as a relic of the past. It was in this time period that Jigaro Kano created Judo. The techniques of Judo are largely derived from older forms of koryū jujutsu that Kano was trained in (Tenjin Shinyo Ryu and Kito Ryu), but the ideology and training methodology was intended as a modern innovation. Judo spread rapidly across Japan and the world, becoming probably the most widespread member of the jujutsu family. One of the distinguishing features of Judo is the emphasis on randori (freestyle practice). Another is the adaption of the art as a competitive sport.

Aikido was developed in the early 20th century by Morehei Ueshiba as an offshoot of Daito Ryu Aiki-jujutsu. Daito Ryu was established around 1900 by Sokaku Takeda. Takeda claimed a long lineage for the art, but there are no historic records backing up that claim. Nevertheless, the art probably has some basis in earlier forms of jujutsu. Aikido and judo are the two most widespread members of the jujutsu family that were actually founded in Japan.

As early exponents of judo spread across the world (both foreigners who had studied a bit in Japan and official Japanese representatives of the Kodokan), they directly created and/or inspired a host of splinter arts which developed their own flavors and specialties. Some kept the jujutsu/jiu-jitsu name (ex - BJJ, Danzan ryu), some did not (ex - Sombo, Bartitsu). Some added material from other sources (karate, aikido, wrestling, arnis, etc). Some claimed a direct connection to particular koryu schools of jujutsu, although the documentation for these claims is usually lacking. Some emphasize traditional Japanese cultural trappings and language, others boast of being modern and street lethal.

TL;DR - Jujutsu is a land of contrasts.



moonhill99 said:


> aikido is soft art and so well it nice I was looking for Japanese jujutsu a bit more harder and more strikes and throws,locks and take towns.
> 
> If traditional Japanese Jujutsu is more softer and less strikes ,throws and take downs than I will go for the modern one.



Aikido isn't necessarily "soft" or "nice." Depending on the school and the instructor, it can be rather brutal. It does contain throws, locks, and takedowns although many schools neglect the striking.

In general, almost any school of jujutsu will include throws, locks, and takedowns. Many will also include striking, although the extent will vary.

You can't really make any useful generalizations about older or newer forms of jujutsu being "harder" or "softer." The best thing is to try some different schools and see which ones have a training environment that appeals to you.


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## moonhill99

Tony Dismukes said:


> As early exponents of judo spread across the world (both foreigners who had studied a bit in Japan and official Japanese representatives of the Kodokan), they directly created and/or inspired a host of splinter arts which developed their own flavors and specialties. Some kept the jujutsu/jiu-jitsu name (ex - BJJ, Danzan ryu), some did not (ex - Sombo, Bartitsu). Some added material from other sources (karate, aikido, wrestling, arnis, etc). Some claimed a direct connection to particular koryu schools of jujutsu, although the documentation for these claims is usually lacking. Some emphasize traditional Japanese cultural trappings and language, others boast of being modern and street lethal.
> 
> Aikido isn't necessarily "soft" or "nice." Depending on the school and the instructor, it can be rather brutal. It does contain throws, locks, and takedowns although many schools neglect the striking.
> 
> In general, almost any school of jujutsu will include throws, locks, and takedowns. Many will also include striking, although the extent will vary.
> 
> You can't really make any useful generalizations about older or newer forms of jujutsu being "harder" or "softer." The best thing is to try some different schools and see which ones have a training environment that appeals to you.




So I think this what you where trying to get at by saying that American system of jujutsu is a modern, eclectic form.  It so mixed and bit of this and bit that but nothing. To get proper feel you have train in aikido, japanese jujutsu and Judo than one school trying mix all three.

But I thought to start it does not really matter how real it is, example  it is only 20% aikido, 30% japanese jujutsu and 40% Judo and other forms.

You get a bit of feel of all and than later if interested take it separately.

And there many aikido and japanese jujutsu modification and new and old by the seems of it that I would know the difference.

*Perhaps it would be beneficial to redefine your search. What are you after, without regard to names or styles,? Are you looking for locks and holds, throws, strikes?*

 japanese jujutsu and aikido and Judo what I like.

Or better response is sorta of the rougher and faster fighting. More combative aggressive one.

The throws, take downs, pressure points and locks, more striking all three  japanese jujutsu, aikido and Judo.

The reason why I said japanese jujutsu is I thought it had more throws, striking, holds, submission and some Judo. May be this was new japanese jujutsu I was looking at on youtube.

Where aikido lot of take downs and locks but less on striking and throws. That aikido was way to get guy on ground and run away not hit the guy on the ground or put him in hold or submission.

That aikido was designed as self defense using the little force than needed. That  japanese jujutsu and judo was more aggressive and fighting almost up there as Hapkido.


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## Tony Dismukes

moonhill99 said:


> So I think this what you where trying to get at by saying that American system of jujutsu is a modern, eclectic form. It so mixed and bit of this and bit that but nothing. To get proper feel you have train in aikido, japanese jujutsu and Judo than one school trying mix all three.



Not really. I was describing where the various systems _come from_, but a well designed system is its own thing, regardless of where it comes from. Judo comes from Tenjin Shinyo Ryu and Kito Ryu, but you don't need to train those arts to get a proper feel for Judo. Sombo comes from Judo, Greco-Roman, freestyle wrestling, and  local forms of wrestling from various Slavic countries, but you don't need to train in those base arts to understand Sombo. Danzan Ryu jujutsu contains elements from Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Lua, Escrima, and purportedly some older forms of jujutsu (although there is controversy over this), but you don't need training in any of those arts to get a proper feel for Danzan Ryu.

I will say that one test of the quality of a system is how well the various elements that went into it have been integrated into a coherent whole. You can find some schools where the founder has grabbed a smorgasbord of techniques from various sources without regard for the underlying principles that make the techniques work. I would avoid such schools.


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## Spinedoc

Hakko Ryu is an interesting style you may want to look at, and there's a school in Sarasota, or at least a Shihan...

Cliff Brunetti - Hakkoryu Jujutsu

Just something to think about. Based on what you said you were looking for...

Hakk -ry - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Mike


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## Spinedoc




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## moonhill99

Hanzou said:


> For example, a guy studies Aikido and Karate, and eventually achieves instructor rank in one or both styles. Well, he may just merge the two styles together and say he's performing an Aiki-jutsu. He may be a competent instructor teaching you great martial arts, but he's not really teaching you traditional Japanese jujutsu. I personally wouldn't practice in such schools because I don't believe a person can master 5-7 different, unrelated arts, much less smash them together into a competent fighting system..



Understandable, but for newbie like myself mix systems are not all bad because it gives exposure to Aikido, japanese jujutsu, Judo,wrestlers so on. It is sorta like high school you learn different things but to really understand you need to go to collage.

I don't have time to take Judo class and Akido class at the same time.


It is sad that Japanese jujutsu in a lot of ways like kung fu and ninja are almost impossible to find schools these days and if they are schools most are McDojo.

Now traditional martial arts are getting harder to find these days. The Japanese jujutsu seems more popular in UK and Europe


The American culture is rooted into direct fighting and part that may be ADHD society!! People don't want to spend 5 to 8 years getting black belt in japanese jujutsu. And 10 to 15 years to you a really good at it.

With Americans ADHD taking Boxing or BJJ in year or two they can beet up most people with no training in martial arts .With traditional martial arts you need black belt and that take 5 to 8 years  With traditional martial arts there much to learn that takes long time.

So traditional martial arts schools are closing down and it is getting harder and harder to find schools that alone good schools.

Also sports fighting like MMA, UFC, Boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai,wrestling and Kickboxing!! people take this cause they want to get into MMA or they thing it is cool and norm now.

There are so many of these schools in Miami I could not count them all.

Try finding traditional martial arts and you in for shock and very much so the non mainstream traditional martial like Karate or Taekwondo.

Now Europe may not be into culture like the US like MMA, UFC, Boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai,wrestling and Kickboxing!!

May explain why more traditional japanese jujutsu there.


It funny the military and police officers learn Judo and Aikido and very much so the police because strikes are not allowed.

If cop used Karate or kung fu he or she would be in Jail for police brutality, unless he or she could show the court that the officer was getting assaulted and had no other choice but to use those moves to fight back.

But the public likes sport fighting now that the fad now.

Just like ninja and kung fu was fad in 70's and 80's.


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## moonhill99

Tony Dismukes said:


> Not really. I was describing where the various systems _come from_, but a well designed system is its own thing, regardless of where it comes from. Judo comes from Tenjin Shinyo Ryu and Kito Ryu, but you don't need to train those arts to get a proper feel for Judo. Sombo comes from Judo, Greco-Roman, freestyle wrestling, and  local forms of wrestling from various Slavic countries, but you don't need to train in those base arts to understand Sombo. Danzan Ryu jujutsu contains elements from Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Lua, Escrima, and purportedly some older forms of jujutsu (although there is controversy over this), but you don't need training in any of those arts to get a proper feel for Danzan Ryu.
> 
> I will say that one test of the quality of a system is how well the various elements that went into it have been integrated into a coherent whole. You can find some schools where the founder has grabbed a smorgasbord of techniques from various sources without regard for the underlying principles that make the techniques work. I would avoid such schools.




Tony I understand what you saying, I'm looking for a school with strikes, throws,take downs,holds and locks.


Here is Japanese jujutsu  first ‪DAN Test‬
Base on this would you say this is a Japanese jujutsu or one of those modern, eclectic form and not really Japanese jujutsu in here.

If it is not  true Japanese jujutsu is this what most schools are like these days.


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## Spinedoc

moonhill99 said:


> Tony I understand what you saying, I'm looking for a school with strikes, throws,take downs,holds and locks.
> 
> 
> Here is Japanese jujutsu  first ‪DAN Test‬
> Base on this would you say this is a Japanese jujutsu or one of those modern, eclectic form and not really Japanese jujutsu in here.
> 
> If it is not  true Japanese jujutsu is this what most schools are like these days.




That is NOT Japanese jujutsu. That looks like some modernized form.





This is Japanese jujutsu.


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## Spinedoc

There is a Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu study group in Miami, FL btw, I think the contact person is a Juan Ribot.


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## Langenschwert

Finding good JJJ is difficult. You may have to broaden your search a bit. Taking Judo and maybe a modern combatives (Krav Maga, KAPAP, etc) class might fit the bill. If you find a good Catch Wrestling gym (also hard to find), jump all over it. Above all, try some classes and see what you like.


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## moonhill99

Langenschwert said:


> Finding good JJJ is difficult. You may have to broaden your search a bit. Taking Judo and maybe a modern combatives (Krav Maga, KAPAP, etc) class might fit the bill. If you find a good Catch Wrestling gym (also hard to find), jump all over it. Above all, try some classes and see what you like.



It could be Japanese jujutsu is more popular in the UK than the US.


Langenschwert there does seems to be some good ‪Aikido‬ schools in Florida.

I may have to take ‪Aikido and Judo to get the throws,take downs,holds and wrist locks.

And than at a later date take karate or kung fu to get striking.

It will not be proper Japanese jujutsu but at least I will get some throws,take downs,holds,wrist locks and some striking.


Did some searching today.There does see to be some good ‪Aikido schools in Florida‬.


‪Aikido of South Florida‬

Aikido of South Florida - Iwama Shin Shin Aiki Shuren Kai USA








‪Aikido Miami - United States Aikikai‬

Aikido Classes - United States Aikikai - AIKIDO MIAMI
Aikido Techniques - AIKIDO MIAMI
Guillermo Gomez - YouTube




‪Aikido of Goldcoast Aikikai‬
Welcome to Aikido of Gold Coast Aikikai Miami
Gold Coast Aikikai - Picture Gllery
Aikido Techniques Martial Arts School Miami FL- Gold Coast Aikikai


‪Aikido Miramar‬
Miami Aikido dojo
Aikido Miramar

‪Aikido School of Self Defense - Fort Lauderdale‬
About the Instructor - Aikido Fort Lauderdale Martial Arts Lort Lauderdale






I was thinking of taking Japanese jujutsu first and than later on ‪Aikido.


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## moonhill99

Spinedoc said:


> That is NOT Japanese jujutsu. That looks like some modernized form.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is Japanese jujutsu.



Yes the traditional Japanese jujutsu does seem to be bit more ‪Aikido like than the Judo like. Where modern Japanese jujutsu seems to be more Judo like.

I think it will be hard to find older traditional Japanese jujutsu in US that alone a state.

May have to look under Aikijujutsu or Aiki.


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## Chris Parker

No.

Look, to be frank, the simple fact here is that you don't have the first clue about what Japanese Jujutsu is. I mean... Judo and Aikido are Japanese Jujutsu... just particular forms of it. So is Yagyu Shingan Ryu (in the above clip), as is Daito Ryu (the only real "Aikijujutsu" you'll find, legitimately), Takenouchi Ryu (the believed first Jujutsu-centric system, although they don't use the term "jujutsu", technically...), Sosuishi Ryu, Hontai Yoshin Ryu, Sho Sho Ryu, Sekiguchi Shinshin Ryu, Kito Ryu, Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, Fusen Ryu, Shibukawa Ryu, and many, many more. And none of these systems are the same as any of the others. Jujutsu is not one single thing.


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## moonhill99

Chris Parker said:


> No.
> 
> Look, to be frank, the simple fact here is that you don't have the first clue about what Japanese Jujutsu is. I mean... Judo and Aikido are Japanese Jujutsu... just particular forms of it. So is Yagyu Shingan Ryu (in the above clip), as is Daito Ryu (the only real "Aikijujutsu" you'll find, legitimately), Takenouchi Ryu (the believed first Jujutsu-centric system, although they don't use the term "jujutsu", technically...), Sosuishi Ryu, Hontai Yoshin Ryu, Sho Sho Ryu, Sekiguchi Shinshin Ryu, Kito Ryu, Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, Fusen Ryu, Shibukawa Ryu, and many, many more. And none of these systems are the same as any of the others. Jujutsu is not one single thing.





_*Criss*_ it was explained here that Japanese jujutsu are modern eclectic Western systems and more Judo like than Aikido like.

Just look at any youtube clip on Japanese jujutsu .

This is what most of schools are teaching.





















That it would be hard to find traditional Japanese jujutsu schools like the videos in post 6 Modern Japanese jiu jitsu vs traditional Japanese jiu jitsu MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

It was explained the reason modern eclectic western systems may not be good is the instructor cross trains in other arts and slaps together different arts and call it Japanese jujutsu.

That is why they where saying for me to take Judo and Aikido to get proper foundation.

That the schools I posted here are not traditional Japanese jiu jitsu but modern Japanese jiu jitsu.


But I take it from some other members posts here that instructors that cross trains in other arts and slaps together different arts and call it Japanese jujutsu is main reason why it is bad. Is the comment of saying Jujutsu scene just gives me hives.

That if instructor was hardcore supporter of Japanese jujutsu it would not better if he is teaching the traditional Japanese jiu jitsu or the modern Japanese jiu jitsu.It is the cross trains in other arts and slaps together different arts is bad and not true Japanese jiu jitsu.

It when they add in boxing, MMA or Kung Fu or leave out parts of jujutsu is how much japanese jujutsu are you getting at the school is all bad.

That is why they would saying for me to take Judo and aikido. I would get enough throws, take downs,flipping, wrist locks, joints locks and such to keep me busy.

As Judo and Aikido is part of  Japanese jujutsu.


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## Chris Parker

Okay, I'm going to pull this one apart… 



moonhill99 said:


> _*Criss*_ it was explained here that Japanese jujutsu are modern eclectic Western systems and more Judo like than Aikido like.



"Chris", not "Criss"… I mean, it's written right there for you… but, a little more pertinently, please don't tell me that you're trying to tell me what is or is not Jujutsu here… and no, that's almost exactly the opposite of what you were told. You were told that the systems and schools you chose as examples of "Japanese Jujutsu" were not Japanese Jujutsu, but were, in fact, modern Western eclectic systems… which they are. Whether they are more "Aikido like" or "Judo like" really doesn't mean anything, or enter into it at all.



moonhill99 said:


> Just look at any youtube clip on Japanese jujutsu .
> 
> This is what most of schools are teaching.



None of those clips are Japanese Jujutsu, or even claim to be Japanese Jujutsu. The second one ("What Is Jujutsu?") is, frankly, a fairly flawed, general (and inaccurate) take one what Jujutsu can be, and is from the Miyama Ryu, a modern American system. There are a number of mistakes throughout it, and it was probably the most informative of the list.



moonhill99 said:


> That it would be hard to find traditional Japanese jujutsu schools like the videos in post 6 Modern Japanese jiu jitsu vs traditional Japanese jiu jitsu MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community



Sure, no one said that you'd find a traditional Japanese system that has commonly only been taught to a small group in one small geographic location for a number of centuries just around the corner… and honestly, the reality there is "deal with it". There are a number of systems that I'm very interested in, but to learn them, I'd need to move to Japan… and, while I'd love to do that, it's just not on my schedule right now. So, I have to accept that I can't learn them (presently). And that's just reality.

But, that said, do you actually know what you're looking at when you watch those clips? You do realise that the clips themselves are representative only of a small portion of what is taught in those particular systems, not of Jujutsu (as a whole) itself, yeah?



moonhill99 said:


> It was explained the reason modern eclectic western systems may not be good is the instructor cross trains in other arts and slaps together different arts and call it Japanese jujutsu.



No, it wasn't. It was explained that what you were citing as "Japanese Jujutsu" wasn't Japanese Jujutsu, but instead a Western eclectic (made up of different sources) system, mainly as that's what it was. There was little made of that being a reason they were seen as "bad"… in fact, value judgements like that didn't really come into it for the majority of posters. The main point was that systems that aren't Japanese Jujutsu are not Japanese Jujutsu.



moonhill99 said:


> That is why they where saying for me to take Judo and Aikido to get proper foundation.



Hanzou said he would suggest that you start with those, or BJJ, but didn't say anything about it being due to a better base… in fact, he didn't really give his thinking. It could just as easily be that they have more likelihood of having higher quality (particularly the BJJ and Judo), or that Judo and Aikido, by actually being Japanese, are going to give you more of the cultural aspects and "feel" of Japanese martial arts, which Western systems tend not to, depending on what exactly you were after.



moonhill99 said:


> That the schools I posted here are not traditional Japanese jiu jitsu but modern Japanese jiu jitsu.



No kidding. You were told that from the beginning.

Oh, and for the record… when it's Japanese, it's "Jujutsu"… "Jiu-jitsu" is simply wrong (the second character 術 can only be pronounced "jutsu"… "jitsu" 実 is a completely different word).



moonhill99 said:


> But I take it from some other members posts here that instructors that cross trains in other arts and slaps together different arts and call it Japanese jujutsu is main reason why it is bad. Is the comment of saying Jujutsu scene just gives me hives.



No, that's not the main reason, but it is symptomatic of a range of other potential issues. I have no idea why it would give you "hives", though, as you currently don't have any knowledge of what it is they're claiming to be, and how close or far they actually are.



moonhill99 said:


> That if instructor was hardcore supporter of Japanese jujutsu it would not better if he is teaching the traditional Japanese jiu jitsu or the modern Japanese jiu jitsu.It is the cross trains in other arts and slaps together different arts is bad and not true Japanese jiu jitsu.



And none of the systems you've brought up have made any such claim… it's been largely you deciding that that's what they're presenting. I'd suggest taking your own biases out of the situation first.



moonhill99 said:


> It when they add in boxing, MMA or Kung Fu or leave out parts of jujutsu is how much japanese jujutsu are you getting at the school is all bad.



"Leave out parts of jujutsu"?!?! What does that even mean?



moonhill99 said:


> That is why they would saying for me to take Judo and aikido. I would get enough throws, take downs,flipping, wrist locks, joints locks and such to keep me busy.



And completely miss the point of it all.



moonhill99 said:


> As Judo and Aikido is part of  Japanese jujutsu.



No, Judo and Aikido are modern forms of Japanese Jujutsu… Judo came largely from Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu and Kito Ryu (there were other influences as well, but that's the main thrust of it), and Aikido came from Daito Ryu (as did Hakko Ryu, which is why you think that "Japanese Jujutsu is more like Aikido than Judo"), among other systems. They are, in the end, simply two expressions of what Jujutsu can be… and represent nothing other than what Judo and Aikido (individually) are.


----------



## Hanzou

Just to clarify my position;

If given the choice, I would choose Judo, Bjj, and even Aikido over an eclectic American JJ system. Not saying that you can't find any good eclectic American JJ systems out there, but Judo, Bjj, and Aikido are simply better institutions with better defined ranking systems, large governing bodies regulating quality of instruction, and plenty of resources to help a beginner learn their art.

Again, not knocking American JJ arts, but I simply don't believe that someone can reach "Soke" level in multiple forms of legitimate classical Japanese Jujutsu. Some of those "founders" of American JJ are claiming more experience in classical JJ than Ueshiba or Kano, who were both Japanese, and lived in Japan during the Meiji restoration. Helio Gracie, Carlos Gracie, and Oswaldo Fadda never claimed to be "Soke" in their form of American Jiujitsu, and they made it a point to infuse Brazilian culture in their styles. 

Your mileage may vary, and at the end of the day its your coin OP. However, I think you'd be better served taking Judo, Bjj, or Aikido.


----------



## Chris Parker

And, to clarify further, there is no such thing as "Soke level"… anyone claiming it as an attained rank has no clue what they're talking about, anyone who says the title's been awarded to them by a board, or for creating their own system, or anything else, has no clue whatsoever. 

Soke is quite a loaded word… and there is no non-Japanese Soke at all. I personally doubt there ever will be. Sure, there are plenty of Westerners (mis)using the title… but frankly, that just outs them as frauds, incompetents, delusional, or so deeply lacking in understanding that there's no way they could have any real connection to any Japanese arts of any form.


----------



## moonhill99

Chris than I don't know what people mean by those schools are modern western eclectic systems.

I thought Tony and others here where saying

*Typically such systems will have roots in judo and/or aikido, but they may also include elements from karate, kung fu, arnis, and who knows what else. *

*There's nothing inherently wrong with such systems, but you said you were specifically looking for Japanese jujutsu,*


And

*Oh boy... Chris Parker is going to have a field day if he sees this thread... *

*Personally, it would be none of the above. Something about the American Classical Jujutsu scene just gives me hives. Not saying there's not some good ones out there, but man, some of those schools just scream B.S. all over it*



So if this is not modern western eclectic systems. What is modern Western eclectic systems.

I said base on the replies here.

1.Is instructor calling it a Japanese jiu jitsu school when it is not really a Japanese jiu jitsu, but 30% boxing ,40% Japanese jiu jitsu and some thing else.

So called modern eclectic western jujutsu.


2. Or instructor not educated enough of on the history of Japanese jiu jitsu.

So called modern eclectic western jujutsu.

Base on some threads here.


If it is none this than I'm confused of what is modern eclectic western jujutsu and why it is bad.


----------



## moonhill99

*None of those clips are Japanese Jujutsu, or even claim to be Japanese Jujutsu. The second one ("What Is Jujutsu?") is, frankly, a fairly flawed, general (and inaccurate) take one what Jujutsu can be, and is from the Miyama Ryu, a modern American system. There are a number of mistakes throughout it, and it was probably the most informative of the list.*

Cris why are those 4 clips not Japanese Jujutsu you say?

Is it too modern in its way of teaching and doing things?

Too Judo like with not many wrist locks?

Or base on Tony and others here where saying

*typically such systems will have roots in judo and/or aikido, but they may also include elements from karate, kung fu, arnis, and who knows what else. *

 *There's nothing inherently wrong with such systems, but you said you were specifically looking for Japanese jujutsu,*


And

 *Oh boy... Chris Parker is going to have a field day if he sees this thread... *

 *Personally, it would be none of the above. Something about the American Classical Jujutsu scene just gives me hives. Not saying there's not some good ones out there, but man, some of those schools just scream B.S. all over it*

So what makes those 4 clips not Japanese Jujutsu?

Or is it not traditional Japanese Jujutsu but modern Japanese traditional Jujutsu?

Or

instructor calling it a Japanese jiu jitsu school when it is not really a Japanese jiu jitsu, but 30% boxing ,40% Japanese jiu jitsu and some thing else.

So called modern eclectic western jujutsu.


2. Or instructor not educated enough of on the history of Japanese jiu jitsu.

So called modern eclectic western jujutsu.

I'm confused on why you say it is not Japanese jiu jitsu.

And if those 4 clips are modern eclectic western jujutsu and what is modern eclectic western jujutsu than.


----------



## Chris Parker

moonhill99 said:


> Chris than I don't know what people mean by those schools are modern western eclectic systems.



What's meant is, well, that's what they are. The systems in question are modern… founded by Westerners and based/developed/taught in the West… and are made up of a variety of sources, from different and disparate areas (not necessarily connected or compatible). Hence… modern… Western… eclectic.



moonhill99 said:


> I thought Tony and others here where saying
> 
> *Typically such systems will have roots in judo and/or aikido, but they may also include elements from karate, kung fu, arnis, and who knows what else. *
> 
> *There's nothing inherently wrong with such systems, but you said you were specifically looking for Japanese jujutsu,*
> 
> 
> And
> 
> *Oh boy... Chris Parker is going to have a field day if he sees this thread... *
> 
> *Personally, it would be none of the above. Something about the American Classical Jujutsu scene just gives me hives. Not saying there's not some good ones out there, but man, some of those schools just scream B.S. all over it*
> 
> So if this is not modern western eclectic systems. What is modern Western eclectic systems.



Yeah… all they're saying is that systems that aren't Japanese Jujutsu, as they, well, aren't Japanese to begin with, aren't Japanese Jujutsu. It's nothing more complex than that.



moonhill99 said:


> I said base on the replies here.
> 
> 1.Is instructor calling it a Japanese jiu jitsu school when it is not really a Japanese jiu jitsu, but 30% boxing ,40% Japanese jiu jitsu and some thing else.
> 
> So called modern eclectic western jujutsu.
> 
> 
> 2. Or instructor not educated enough of on the history of Japanese jiu jitsu.
> 
> So called modern eclectic western jujutsu.
> 
> Base on some threads here.



I'm not sure what you're trying to ask here… if it's a modern, Western system, it's not a classical Japanese one… that's really all that's being said.



moonhill99 said:


> If it is none this than I'm confused of what is modern eclectic western jujutsu and why it is bad.



It's not bad, by definition. But the main thing is that, if you're asking to learn Japanese Jujutsu, none of these systems are that. It's like you saying you want to play football, and I keep suggesting a tennis match… it's still a sport, lots of fun, but it's not football.



moonhill99 said:


> *None of those clips are Japanese Jujutsu, or even claim to be Japanese Jujutsu. The second one ("What Is Jujutsu?") is, frankly, a fairly flawed, general (and inaccurate) take one what Jujutsu can be, and is from the Miyama Ryu, a modern American system. There are a number of mistakes throughout it, and it was probably the most informative of the list.*
> 
> Cris why are those 4 clips not Japanese Jujutsu you say?



Because none of them are even Japanese.



moonhill99 said:


> Is it too modern in its way of teaching and doing things?



No, it's that none of them are Japanese.



moonhill99 said:


> Too Judo like with not many wrist locks?



Completely irrelevant.



moonhill99 said:


> Or base on Tony and others here where saying
> 
> *typically such systems will have roots in judo and/or aikido, but they may also include elements from karate, kung fu, arnis, and who knows what else. *
> 
> *There's nothing inherently wrong with such systems, but you said you were specifically looking for Japanese jujutsu,*
> 
> 
> And
> 
> *Oh boy... Chris Parker is going to have a field day if he sees this thread... *
> 
> *Personally, it would be none of the above. Something about the American Classical Jujutsu scene just gives me hives. Not saying there's not some good ones out there, but man, some of those schools just scream B.S. all over it*
> 
> So what makes those 4 clips not Japanese Jujutsu?



They're not Japanese… they're founded in the West, by Westerners, and taught in Western countries exclusively (not found in Japan at all).

It's really that simple.



moonhill99 said:


> Or is it not traditional Japanese Jujutsu but modern Japanese traditional Jujutsu?



I don't even know what that means… 



moonhill99 said:


> Or
> 
> instructor calling it a Japanese jiu jitsu school when it is not really a Japanese jiu jitsu, but 30% boxing ,40% Japanese jiu jitsu and some thing else.
> 
> So called modern eclectic western jujutsu.
> 
> 
> 2. Or instructor not educated enough of on the history of Japanese jiu jitsu.
> 
> So called modern eclectic western jujutsu.
> 
> I'm confused on why you say it is not Japanese jiu jitsu.
> 
> And if those 4 clips are modern eclectic western jujutsu and what is modern eclectic western jujutsu than.



And now you're just repeating yourself… I have no idea what you're trying to ask.


----------



## moonhill99

*What's meant is, well, that's what they are. The systems in question are modern… founded by Westerners and based/developed/taught in the West… and are made up of a variety of sources, from different and disparate areas (not necessarily connected or compatible). Hence… modern… Western… eclectic.*

Cris this is what I'm confused what does it matter if it is founded by westerners or not? or if is a westerners teaching it or Japanese teaching it?

What makes it modern? Or a modern western eclectic systems the *curriculum* or you say founded by westerners?

*Yeah… all they're saying is that systems that aren't Japanese Jujutsu, as they, well, aren't Japanese to begin with, aren't Japanese Jujutsu. It's nothing more complex than that.*


Cris this what I'm confused, I said lot of the new schools are more Judo like than aikido and one of the members here was saying there are different types of Japanese Jujutsu and Judo and Aikido are part of Japanese Jujutsu.

So if it is not the curriculum than what is making it modern or modern western eclectic systems?  I thought the curriculum of Japanese Jujutsu now is modern and this is what makes it  modern western eclectic systems.

But now I think I misinterpreted the replies here that you saying that not the case but going on saying it is founded by westerners and non Japanese teaching it. If so what does this matter.

Is the curriculum unless the curriculum is modern or some how mixed with other systems like boxing or Kung fu.



*Yeah… all they're saying is that systems that aren't Japanese Jujutsu, as they, well, aren't Japanese to begin with, aren't Japanese Jujutsu. It's nothing more complex than that.*

That is what I'm trying to understand what makes it not Japanese Jujutsu. The curriculum is mixed with other systems like boxing or Kung fu or is it some how different.

The teacher not understanding the history enough or leaving out many of the moves of it because not understanding it enough?

What does founded by westerners or non Japanese teaching it have to do with making it non Japanese Jujutsu. Unless some how you looking for older traditional Japanese Jujutsu.

If it is modern Japanese Jujutsu than the curriculum should be modern but what does founded by westerners or non Japanese teaching it have to do with it.

*I'm not sure what you're trying to ask here… if it's a modern, Western system, it's not a classical Japanese one… that's really all that's being said.*

Because  I said.

1.Is instructor calling it a Japanese jiu jitsu school when it is not really a Japanese jiu jitsu, but 30% boxing ,40% Japanese jiu jitsu and some thing else.

So called modern eclectic western jujutsu.


2. Or instructor not educated enough of on the history of Japanese jiu jitsu.

So called modern eclectic western jujutsu.


You said.

*No*.

*Look, to be frank, the simple fact here is that you don't have the first clue about what Japanese Jujutsu is. I mean... Judo and Aikido are Japanese Jujutsu..*

And

*and no, that's almost exactly the opposite of what you were told. You were told that the systems and schools you chose as examples of "Japanese Jujutsu" were not Japanese Jujutsu, but were, in fact, modern Western eclectic systems… which they are. Whether they are more "Aikido like" or "Judo like" really doesn't mean anything, or enter into it at all.*

And

*What's meant is, well, that's what they are. The systems in question are modern… founded by Westerners and based/developed/taught in the West*

And some of the other replies here.

So I get idea when I said.

1.Is instructor calling it a Japanese jiu jitsu school when it is not really a Japanese jiu jitsu, but 30% boxing ,40% Japanese jiu jitsu and some thing else.

That this is false, this does not make it so called modern eclectic western jujutsu.


Or

2. Or instructor not educated enough of on the history of Japanese jiu jitsu.


So than this is false does not make it so called modern eclectic western jujutsu.

This is the confused here.

When I read.


Tony and others here where saying

*Typically such systems will have roots in judo and/or aikido, but they may also include elements from karate, kung fu, arnis, and who knows what else. *

*There's nothing inherently wrong with such systems, but you said you were specifically looking for Japanese jujutsu,*


And

*Oh boy... Chris Parker is going to have a field day if he sees this thread... *

*Personally, it would be none of the above. Something about the American Classical Jujutsu scene just gives me hives. Not saying there's not some good ones out there, but man, some of those schools just scream B.S. all over it*


Base on this and other replies here I than said.


1.instructor calling it a Japanese jiu jitsu school when it is not really a Japanese jiu jitsu, but 30% boxing ,40% Japanese jiu jitsu and some thing else.

So called modern eclectic western jujutsu.


2. Or instructor not educated enough of on the history of Japanese jiu jitsu.


So called modern eclectic western jujutsu.


And base on some replies that my interpretation on the replies on what is so called modern eclectic western jujutsu is wrong.

That is is why I'm asking you and others to clarify.

I think we all can agree it not older and classical Japanese jiu jitsu base on those clips of older Japanese jiu jitsu members are posting here.

But it is still Japanese jiu jitsu just not the older and classical Japanese jiu jitsu?


----------



## Spinedoc

A Japanese system has to be founded in Japan. If a western person founds it, it doesn't matter what techniques he uses, it's not a Japanese Jujutsu.

There are 2 different types of Japanese Jujutsu, and dozens of ryu or schools in each type.

1. Gendai jujutsu, this would be jujutsu systems created after the Meiji restoration, would be considered "modern" Japanese jujutsu. Judo, Aikido, Hakko Ryu, etc. All modern Japanese systems.

2. Koryu jujutsu, older, before the Meiji restoration, considered "Classic" jujutsu systems. Daito Ryu, Yagyu, etc.etc.etc.

Basically, it doesn't matter if an instructor is well versed on japanese history or not, if the system was not founded (and for the most part still organizationally run) in Japan, it's not a Japanese jujutsu. That doesn't mean its good or bad, just means that it is not Japanese.

You started the thread stating that you wanted to study a Japanese jujutsu, that means very specific art forms, which is what I think Chris was trying to say.

Mike


----------



## moonhill99

Spinedoc said:


> A Japanese system has to be founded in Japan. If a western person founds it, it doesn't matter what techniques he uses, it's not a Japanese Jujutsu.
> 
> There are 2 different types of Japanese Jujutsu, and dozens of ryu or schools in each type.
> 
> 1. Gendai jujutsu, this would be jujutsu systems created after the Meiji restoration, would be considered "modern" Japanese jujutsu. Judo, Aikido, Hakko Ryu, etc. All modern Japanese systems.
> 
> 2. Koryu jujutsu, older, before the Meiji restoration, considered "Classic" jujutsu systems. Daito Ryu, Yagyu, etc.etc.etc.
> 
> Basically, it doesn't matter if an instructor is well versed on japanese history or not, if the system was not founded (and for the most part still organizationally run) in Japan, it's not a Japanese jujutsu. That doesn't mean its good or bad, just means that it is not Japanese.
> 
> You started the thread stating that you wanted to study a Japanese jujutsu, that means very specific art forms, which is what I think Chris was trying to say.
> 
> Mike



So it does not matter if the *curriculum *is*  100% clone* of Japanese jujutsu it is not Japanese jujutsu? Than what is it?

You can't just say jujutsu because it could be Brazilian jiu jitsu that work on ground fighting.

There is school in Tampa that calls it self Japanese jujutsu and looks very good school. If this is not Japanese jujutsu than what is it.

A school in Tampa that calls it self Japanese jujutsu and looks very good.






















A jujutsu School in Tampa

Tatsumaki Dojo Traditional Ju-Jutsu
Tatsumaki Dojo Traditional Ju-Jutsu

If you say this is not Japanese jujutsu than what is it a mixed system?

So a mixed system is bad?


----------



## Spinedoc

It's a mixed system with several gendai jujutsu forms, including Hakko Ryu founded in 1941, Yoshitsune jujutsu, founded in 1960, a koryu form (I know debatable), daito ryu aikijujutsu which, in it's current form, was founded in 1900, judo, founded in 1882.......this is further mixed with okinawan karate and kobudo.

It's modern, western, mixed system. Not necessarily good or bad....but not a true japanese jujutsu.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

moonhill99 said:


> If it is none this than I'm confused of what is modern eclectic western jujutsu and why it is bad.





moonhill99 said:


> Cris this is what I'm confused what does it matter if it is founded by westerners or not? or if is a westerners teaching it or Japanese teaching it?
> 
> What makes it modern? Or a modern western eclectic systems the *curriculum* or you say founded by westerners?



Let's go back to my earlier statement that "jujutsu" is the term for a _family_ of related arts. Let's use the analogy of a human family to clarify the concepts somewhat.

Imagine the family dynasty started by Mr. Fumio Watanabe. Mr. Watanabe was born in Japan in 1640. He is thoroughly Japanese and (given is date of birth) has some ideas that we would consider very old fashioned.

His great-great-great-great-etc-grandson Hiro was born in 1870. Hiro Watanabe is also totally Japanese, but embraced modernity and vocally rejected many of the feudalistic traditions that his father embraced.

Hiro and his wife moved to England, where they had a number of children. The children were raised in a different culture than their parents. Even though they retained much of their heritage, they were English.

These children then went on to have children of their own. Some of them clung to various aspects of their family traditions, some did not. Some married into other Japanese families, others found mates among the English. Some moved to other countries and spread the family there. Some kept the family name and some did not.

Even among those of the Watanabe diaspora who took pride in their family history and traditions and self-identified as Japanese, most had very little personal experience or any clear idea of what it was like to be born and grown up Japanese in Japan.

If you replace "Watanabe" with "jujutsu" than you have some idea of the situation. Of course, the metaphor isn't perfect. You have to imagine that each member of the family has the potential (usually not realized)  to live for centuries. You also have to imagine that instead of a child requiring two parents, there could be only one or there could be several. It's kind of messy.



moonhill99 said:


> So it does not matter if the *curriculum *is* 100% clone* of Japanese jujutsu it is not Japanese jujutsu?



You can't have a 100% clone of the curriculum of Japanese jujutsu because there _is_ no single curriculum of Japanese jujutsu. The curriculum of Hakko Ryu is different from the curriculum of Takenouchi Ryu is different from the curriculum of Judo. Every style of jujutsu has its own curriculum.

As far as whether it matters whether a given style of jujutsu is actually Japanese or not? That depends on what you're looking for and why you want it.


----------



## moonhill99

But what I don't understand is why if it is founded by westerners or westerners teaching it is modern western eclectic systems.

But a modern curriculum would not make it so. A modern Japanese jujutsu school in US would not make it modern western eclectic systems or a mixed system like 30% boxing ,40% Japanese jiu jitsu and some thing else not make it a true Japanese jujutsu.

That is what I thought Tony and others where trying say here.

If it is modern Japanese jujutsu or a mixed system like 30% boxing ,40% Japanese jiu jitsu and some thing else it is not true Japanese jujutsu. But called a modern western eclectic systems.

So it does better if the instructor spends all of his or her life devoted to try to make clone Japanese jujutsu and no mixed arts like no karate or no boxing thrown into the curriculum it is not Japanese jujutsu but modern western eclectic systems or a mixed system .

No matter how hard the instructor tries to copy Japanese jujutsu or respect history it is not Japanese jujutsu but modern western eclectic systems.

Because I thought one of Cris post in other thread to other poster was going on about the instructor not respecting history of Japanese jujutsu!!! But throwing in many modern arts into his Japanese jujutsu school not making it a clone Japanese jujutsu but a mixed school.

It is sorta of like saying you like _McDonald's_  food but you get the fries and drinks at KFC so it not really true _McDonald's_ food you like to eat.

So you should not really call it _McDonald's_  food.


It was this thread Cris was saying it was not true Japanese jujutsu because he was throwing in so many arts into his school the curriculum was very mixed making it not a true Japanese jujutsu.

Combat Jiu-Jitsu with Matt Bryers MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


----------



## Spinedoc

Well, here's an analogy. I love scotch. Fact I'm kind of a Scotch snob. I'm particular to Islay scotches. Now to another scotch drinker they know exactly what this means. And if I was to go and try and sell Islay scotches here in United States there would be nothing wrong with that. However if I was to try and start my own distillery here in United States and say I was making Islay Scotch, that would be fraudulent. Islay comes from one particular region in Scotland. I might still be making scotch, but it would not be Islay scotch. Does that make sense?


----------



## Tony Dismukes

moonhill99 said:


> But what I don't understand is why if it is founded by westerners or westerners teaching it is modern western eclectic systems.



An art is _Japanese_ if it was created in Japan. It's _western_ if it was created in the West. It's pretty straightforward. (You will find a fair number of people who consider their art "Japanese", even though it was founded in the West by Westerners, because the art's ancestry can be traced back to Japan and they have held on to certain Japanese cultural trappings. It's like my family metaphor - do you consider members of the Watanabe family who have been in England for 5 generations to still be "Japanese"?)

An art is _modern_ if it was created in modern times. This raises the question of what you consider "modern". 20th century? 21st century? Depending on your context, you might draw the cut-off point at different times. (You might also decline to draw a binary distinction and instead consider modernity as a continuum.) When you are talking about arts derived from a Japanese tradition, one of the most commonly used cut-off points is the Meiji restoration. Japanese arts founded before that point ("koryu" arts) generally shared certain philosophical and pedagogical attributes that are very different from those of the arts founded after that point ("gendai" arts). There might arguably be more similarity between Judo (a gendai art) and some modern form of jujutsu created 100+ years after Judo than between Judo and its immediate forebear Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, which was founded only 50 years before Judo.

An art is _eclectic_ if it draws upon a variety of unrelated sources for its curriculum. This can be somewhat subjective, since a large percentage of newly created arts draw upon more than one source. Personally, I tend to use the term if the sources are clearly unrelated and their separate origins can still be perceived in the resulting art.


----------



## moonhill99

* An art is Japanese if it was created in Japan.*

True.

* It's western if it was created in the West. *

True

*It's pretty straightforward. *

I understand this part.


*You will find a fair number of people who consider their art "Japanese", even though it was founded in the West by Westerners, because the art's ancestry can be traced back to Japan *

Only if the curriculum is Japanese. If the curriculum is not Japanese or is mixed with other systems than no it should not be called true Japanese jujutsu.

*and they have held on to certain Japanese cultural trappings. It's like my family metaphor - do you consider members of the Watanabe family who have been in England for 5 generations to still be "Japanese"?)*

What is Cris Parker and some other members here are chasing Japanese curriculum or Japanese cultural?

If it is Japanese curriculum but a westerner cultural than base on the cultural it is not true Japanese. But the curriculum is Japanese.

I buy Japanese games in the west at the store does that make it less Japanese because in Japan they use other box or it not in English or different?

*It's like my family metaphor - do you consider members of the Watanabe family who have been in England for 5 generations to still be "Japanese"?)*

I'm concern about curriculum not culture or history. If the curriculum is new ,different or mixed than yes I will agree it is not true Japanese curriculum of that system.

I must ask what they do in Japan that so different than here besides the curriculum that makes it so different you call it.

*An art is modern if it was created in modern times. This raises the question of what you consider "modern". 20th century? 21st century? Depending on your context, you might draw the cut-off point at different times. (You might also decline to draw a binary distinction and instead consider modernity as a continuum.) When you are talking about arts derived from a Japanese tradition, one of the most commonly used cut-off points is the Meiji restoration. Japanese arts founded before that point ("koryu" arts) generally shared certain philosophical and pedagogical attributes that are very different from those of the arts founded after that point ("gendai" arts). There might arguably be more similarity between Judo (a gendai art) and some modern form of jujutsu created 100+ years after Judo than between Judo and its immediate forebear Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, which was founded only 50 years before Judo.*

I thought every thing after the Meiji is considered modern.

So this would be modern Japanese jiu jitsu.





















Where traditional Japanese jujutsu schools are like the videos in post 6.
Modern Japanese jiu jitsu vs traditional Japanese jiu jitsu MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

If so why are modern Japanese jiu jitsu bad?

What  are they teaching in those 4 clips above that make it so bad?

Is it too mixed with other systems? The curriculum  is too new and different than the curriculum in Japan? They don't teach these new systems in Japan?

They would not teach these moves and techniques in Japan like they are shown in the 4 clips above?

What makes those moves and techniques  bad?

*An art is eclectic if it draws upon a variety of unrelated sources for its curriculum. This can be somewhat subjective, since a large percentage of newly created arts draw upon more than one source. Personally, I tend to use the term if the sources are clearly unrelated and their separate origins can still be perceived in the resulting art.*

Yes like the Jacksonville school you said teaching boxing and Brazilian jiu-jitsu part of its Japanese jiu jitsu.

Would not be true Japanese jiu jitsu.

You said and others here said that a lot of the Japanese jiu jitsu schools in US are mixed systems.

If so than that would not be  true Japanese jiu jitsu.

*Typically such systems will have roots in judo and/or aikido, but they may also include elements from karate, kung fu, arnis, and who knows what else. *

*There's nothing inherently wrong with such systems, but you said you were specifically looking for Japanese jujutsu,*

You mean looking for a traditional Japanese jujutsu schools or a Japanese jujutsu schools that is not mixed or not and or modern Japanese jujutsu schools or not?


----------



## Tony Dismukes

moonhill99 said:


> Only if the curriculum is Japanese. If the curriculum is not Japanese or is mixed with other systems than no it should not be called true Japanese jujutsu.



Yeah ... that gets tricky. Firstly, if by curriculum you mean the list of techniques taught - that's not the most important factor in defining a martial art. Secondly, it can be a bit confusing determining where exactly individual techniques originated.

Let's take BJJ as a case study. This is generally regarded as a Brazilian art, not a Japanese one. However ...

The original curriculum came entirely from a Japanese judo practitioner (Maeda). Carlos Gracie studied with either Maeda or Maeda's student Donato Pires for only about 3 years and did not learn anywhere close to the full Judo curriculum.  Over time, practitioners added more techniques to the art from catch wrestling, Sombo, and Judo. However the Sombo techniques may have originated in Judo and the catch wrestling techniques may also have been in Judo, although independently discovered. BJJ competitors regularly develop new techniques based on the old ones, but we occasionally find old footage of Judo practitioners using some of those same moves. This is why some old-time Judo practitioners refer to BJJ as Basically Just Judo.

What makes BJJ a separate (though closely related art) from Judo are tactics, objectives, specialization, training methods, and culture.

I mentioned earlier that no two systems of Japanese jujutsu have the same curriculum. In addition, martial artists from different parts of the world have independently discovered many of the same techniques (although the flavor of these techniques may vary according to the art). This is why I think it's much simpler to just identify the nationality of an art based on where it was founded.





moonhill99 said:


> I must ask what they do in Japan that so different than here besides the curriculum that makes it so different you call it.



Depends on the arts in question. In many cases the difference between a modern Japanese art and a modern American art might not be any greater than the difference between two modern Japanese arts or between two modern American arts.



moonhill99 said:


> So this would be modern Japanese jiu jitsu.



Nope. Those are all modern Western systems descended from Japanese systems.  (That last one had a lot of karate and/or TKD in it.)



moonhill99 said:


> If so why are modern Japanese jiu jitsu bad



No one is saying it's bad. Japanese/Western, modern/classical, eclectic/traditional - nothing of that has anything to do with whether an art is good or bad.



moonhill99 said:


> They don't teach these new systems in Japan?
> 
> They would not teach these moves and techniques in Japan like they are shown in the 4 clips above?



I don't know whether any of those arts have migrated back to Japan. (I doubt it.) BJJ is an example of a Western member of the jujutsu family that has travelled back to the roots and _is_ being studied in Japan by Japanese practitioners today.



moonhill99 said:


> You mean looking for a traditional Japanese jujutsu schools or a Japanese jujutsu schools that is not mixed or not and or modern Japanese jujutsu schools or not?



That's up to you. Since you've clarified that you don't care about history or culture and just want a curriculum that includes throws, strikes, and locks, then I would forget about it and just find a school where you like the instruction. Based on your criteria, it doesn't sound like it really should matter to you whether an art is Japanese or not.


----------



## moonhill99

I don't have time to respond to the above has I'm busy with work and stuff. I will try to do it soon. 

But from what I seen the schools out side of Japan seem to drop the word Japanese jujutsu and just call it jujutsu . The instructors teaching it seem more in common with Judo and some instructors will mixed in styles (boxing or karate so on)  than the classic old jujutsu.

And people seem to spell jujutsu many ways.

The instructors don't seem interested teaching the old classic one but into the modern one. With Aikido and Judo so popular these days may be  that is why.


----------



## Chris Parker

You firstly need to do one thing… forget everything you think you know (frankly, it's nothing), and actually listen to what you're being told. So far, none of what you've said even makes sense.

People teach the art they know and are able to teach… if that's a modern system, it's a modern system. If it's a classical one, it's a classical one… it has nothing to do with who is interested in teaching what… it's about what they're actually teaching. 

The rest of your post is just as off-base, bluntly.


----------



## moonhill99

Chris Parker said:


> You firstly need to do one thing… forget everything you think you know (frankly, it's nothing), and actually listen to what you're being told. So far, none of what you've said even makes sense.
> 
> People teach the art they know and are able to teach… if that's a modern system, it's a modern system. If it's a classical one, it's a classical one… it has nothing to do with who is interested in teaching what… it's about what they're actually teaching.
> 
> The rest of your post is just as off-base, bluntly.



Chis are you saying for school in US to be Japanese jiu jitsu school the instructor would have go to Japan and train there than come back and set up school. It not some thing they can study in US.

Is it that US lacks knowledge to educate the person.

I said *the instructors don't seem interested teaching the old classic one*

Is it some thing more complex that the instructor cannot learn it in US and would have to go to Japan and learn it there and come back to the US. That it would be hard to find instructor teaching old Japanese jiu jitsu school in US.


----------



## Chris Parker

What???

Dude… I have no idea what the hell you're talking about… nothing anyone has said in any way supports this bizarre series of ideas you have.

In order… No. I'm saying that for a school in the US to be teaching Japanese Jujutsu, it needs to be teaching Japanese Jujutsu, not some other art. That's it.

No, it's nothing to do with any level of "education" (I don't even know what you mean by that).

I read what you wrote… and it's completely off base. It has nothing to do with any interest, any more than saying a boxing coach not teaching tennis is because they don't seem interested in it… a martial arts instructor can only teach the art they've learnt. It doesn't matter what level of interest someone has if they haven't learnt it in the first place.

And, as for the end, wow, no!!! Dude, get this straight… Japanese Jujutsu is Jujutsu that is from Japan. That's it. That's the whole criteria. And, honestly, if you can't find any Japanese Jujutsu around you (and frankly, I don't think you'd recognise it even if you did), that just means that there isn't any around you… nothing else.

Again…. you really, really have to forget anything and everything you think you know. Bluntly, you don't know a thing. Listen to what you're being told. And stop trying to put your own fractured and incorrect beliefs onto what we say… nothing you have said is even close to correct.


----------



## moonhill99

Chris Parker said:


> Dude… I have no idea what the hell you're talking about… nothing anyone has said in any way supports this bizarre series of ideas you have.
> 
> In order… No. I'm saying that for a school in the US to be teaching Japanese Jujutsu, it needs to be teaching Japanese Jujutsu, not some other art. That's it.
> 
> No, it's nothing to do with any level of "education" (I don't even know what you mean by that).
> 
> I read what you wrote… and it's completely off base. It has nothing to do with any interest, any more than saying a boxing coach not teaching tennis is because they don't seem interested in it… a martial arts instructor can only teach the art they've learnt. It doesn't matter what level of interest someone has if they haven't learnt it in the first place.
> 
> And, as for the end, wow, no!!! Dude, get this straight… Japanese Jujutsu is Jujutsu that is from Japan. That's it. That's the whole criteria. And, honestly, if you can't find any Japanese Jujutsu around you (and frankly, I don't think you'd recognise it even if you did), that just means that there isn't any around you… nothing else.
> 
> Again…. you really, really have to forget anything and everything you think you know. Bluntly, you don't know a thing. Listen to what you're being told. And stop trying to put your own fractured and incorrect beliefs onto what we say… nothing you have said is even close to correct.



Chris you just said in other post and this one this is some some think you cannot study or learn you have to train find a instructor that knows Japanese Jujutsu.

I just reaped what you said.

When I said Japanese jiu jitsu school the instructor would have go to Japan and train there than come back and set up school

Was in response to you saying



Chris Parker said:


> People teach the art they know and are able to teach.
> 
> it has nothing to do with who is interested in teaching what… it's about what they're actually teaching.


 

You where correcting me saying it has nothing to do with how interested they are. They can only teach want they know.

So I just reaped what you said.

When I said Japanese jiu jitsu school the instructor would have go to Japan and train there than come back and set up school.

You can only teach want you know that want you said.

You have to find Japanese jiu jitsu school in US that may be really hard or go to Japan than study .

You can only teach want you know that want you said.

These are your words.


Chris I think I was under the impression in the beginning that the instructor could copy and study and learn.

You said no you cannot copy and study and learn. You can only teach want you know.

How do you know. Well find school. You just said and others members most schools in US are western system.


So you may have to go to Japan to school there and train there.





Chris Parker said:


> In order… No. I'm saying that for a school in the US to be teaching Japanese Jujutsu, it needs to be teaching Japanese Jujutsu, not some other art. That's it.


 

I said nothing of some other art or mixed art in my last post reply to you.


----------



## Chris Parker

You're not listening. None of that is what I said.


----------



## moonhill99

May be I should of ask question of why the Japanese jiujitsu system is not that popular out side of Japan but the western jiujitsu is really popular.

Is it just fad and popularity?

Or I was thinking the martial arts instructors not interested in the history and teaching
Japan system. That I think Chris was saying that not case.

Chris saying has nothing to do with interest in it. If so why is the western jiujitsu more popular.

Chris was going on about they can only teach want they know. So how would they know it with out training in Japan or finding school in US that teach old classic Japan system.

Remember Chris said they can only teach want they know. 

So I take it more complex than a martial arts instructor that cannot just study the history out of book and moves and techniques they used in Japan out of book? That they cannot study in it but have to train in it. It be too complex even for a martial arts instructor.

I guess this where Chris was saying they can only teach want they know.


----------



## moonhill99

Chris Parker said:


> You're not listening. None of that is what I said.



Chris I think this is miscommunication problem. 

Before you started replying, I was talking with Tony that was saying these systems are western jiujitsu systems not Japan system.

Other than me asking Tony what is the difference of two systems, I was going on about.

Martial arts instructors leaving out curriculum,moves and techniques of system in Japan.

By study I mean book on moves,techniques and curriculum.

You said they can only teach want they know.

So I take it is more complex than a martial arts instructor on book on moves,techniques and curriculum. They have to train in it to get knowledge to teach it.

You said they can only teach want they know.

So that what I was getting at, is there lack of knowledge of Japan system out side of Japan or just lack of interest in it.Where by the western jiujitsu system is more popular.


----------



## elder999

Pretty sure this guy's some kind of troll: from the misspelling of Chris's name right down to the apparent lack of command of the English language, to the downright obtuseness in this and other threads, I have to conclude that he's playing some sort of game.

No human being could possibly be so stupid.


----------



## Steve

You can't teach what you don't know.   it seems like some pretty obvious stuff to me.   If you haven't been taught classical, Japanese jujutsu from someone competent, you will be unable to teach it yourself.   Not sure what the disconnect is here.


----------



## elder999

Steve said:


> You can't teach what you don't know.   it seems like some pretty obvious stuff to me.   If you haven't been taught classical, Japanese jujutsu from someone competent, you will be unable to teach it yourself.   Not sure what the disconnect is here.



Lots, actually.

One:  Judo *is* "Japanese jujutsu."

Two: As the creator of Miyama ryu, Pereira Sensei had studied-and received teaching credentials-in Aikido and Sosuishitsu Ryu jujutsu, directly from the creators and inheritors of those arts. From my study of all of those arts, however, I have to say that Miyama ryu has very little Aikido, and even less Sosuishitsu ryu (though I'm probably asking for a beating by saying so).....

So, in Miyama ryu's case, we have a _gaijin_ jujutsu, one geared towards western street crime, and incorporating techniques and strategies from a variety of sources. There are a few other American systems like this: upthread, someone mentioned Yoshitsune waza, and Hakko ryu. I was there the day Michael Depasquale senior publicly said he was calling his jujutsu "Yoshitsune waza," and there's a very long story behind that, but his system had its roots in the Yoshitsune jujutsu of Junji Saito, and Depasquale (and Saito's) own study of Hakko ryu......Yoshitsune waza is-to my mind- very much Hakko ryu, with some stuff thrown in for "spice."  A "hakko-ryu stew," so to speak...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





All of this means something to me, and it might mean something to Chris Parker (though he's likely to argue at least  a little, because that's his way: he'll call it "correcting." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

but it really means nothing-I often say that, when it's all said and done, Miyama ryu is an awful lot like the so-called "dirty judo" of the 40's and 50's....in fact, my usual recommendation to people seeking good self defense skills is for them to study judo at the YMCA, and join a PAL boxing program...barring that, though, what is it you want from martial arts training? There aren't many programs that can satisfy all answers to that question, so knowing *your* answer is of paramount importance.  It appears-if he's serious, and I'm beginning to doubt that-that the OP wants real self-defense training. If that's the case, he could do a lot worse than a Miyama ryu or Yoshitsune waza dojo......most aikido dojo would be worse, in fact-not *all*...likewise, most BJJ dojo-no offense to them, but 9/10 of the ones that I've seen  train from a kneeling position, and roll around on the mats as though that's the entirety of a confrontation: 99% of all fights might wind up on the ground (though I don't think that's true) but 100% of them  start standing up...likewise,sadly, most judo dojo don't really train for self-defense, but for a game whose evolving rules make it less and less realistic. Most aikido dojo are too caught up in the whole mystical, peacenik, fluffy aiki-bunny aspects to be effective self defense, though there are som that are......I'd recommend knowing what you want, and if it's effective self-defense, *ask a couple of cops,[/b[, or shop in really bad neighborhoods, and find the school that's been in one for a couple of decades.....*


----------



## moonhill99

elder999 said:


> Lots, actually.
> 
> One:  Judo *is* "Japanese jujutsu."
> 
> Two: As the creator of Miyama ryu, Pereira had studied-and received teaching credentials-in Aikido and Sosuishitsu Ryu jujutsu, directly from the creators and inheritors of those arts. From my study of all of those arts, however, I have to say that Miyama ryu has very little Aikido, and even less Sosuishitsu ryu (though I'm probably asking for a beating by doing so).....
> 
> So, in Miyama ryu's case, we have a _gaijin_ jujutsu, one geared towards western street crime, and incorporating techniques and strategies from a variety of sources. There are a few other American systems like this: upthread, someone mentioned Yoshitsune waza, and Hakko ryu. I was there the day Michael Depasquale senior publicly said he was calling his jujutsu "Yoshitsune waza," and there's a very long story behind that, but his system had its roots in the Yoshitsune jujutsu of Junji Saito, and Depasquale (and Saito's) own study of Hakko ryu......Yoshitsune waza is-to my mind- very much Hakko ryu, with some stuff thrown in for "spice."  A "hakko-ryu stew," so to speak...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of this means something to me, and it might mean something to Chris Parker (though he's likely to argue at least  a little, because that's his way: he'll call it "correcting."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> but it really means nothing-I often say that, when it's all said and done, Miyama ryu is an awful lot like the so-called "dirty judo" of the 40's and 50's....in fact, my usual recommendation to people seeking good self defense skills is for them to study judo at the YMCA, and join a PAL boxing program...barring that, though, what is it you want from martial arts training? There aren't many programs that can satisfy all answers to that question, so knowing *your* answer is of paramount importance.  It appears-if he's serious, and I'm beginning to doubt that-that the OP wants real self-defense training.




elder999 I know this thread got off topic of Japanese jiujitsu vs western system. Has I never heard that before this message board.

The scopes of this thread was jiujitsu schools in south Florida.

elder999 did you train at the Miyama ryu jiujitsu school in Miami? Or know anyone that train there at the Miyama ryu jiujitsu school in Miami.

If so what is the school like. Do you think it my be good school for a young overweight  person like my self?

Would I be able to do some of these moves being really overweight? Or should I hit the gym and lose some weight first?


----------



## elder999

moonhill99 said:


> elder999 did you train at the Miyama ryu jiujitsu school in Miami? Or know anyone that train there at the Miyama ryu jiujitsu school in Miami.



I started Miyama ryu *jujutsu* in 1981. Before that, I'd studied judo and Kyokushin karate-both of which I've continued, as well as studying....other things.....Since Pereiera's death in 1999, and even before that,  Miyama ryu has diverged a little  bit here and there, depending upon who was teaching it and where they were. While  I've never been to the Miami dojo, I can say that Echavarria sensei and his people are excellent....



moonhill99 said:


> If so what is the school like. Do you think it my be good school for a young overweight  person like my self?
> 
> Would I be able to do some of these moves being really overweight? Or should I hit the gym and lose some weight first?



It will be *hard*, but you wouldn't be the first "overweight" person to benefit from the training-it only gets harder, and the first few kyu grades are just not that difficult for....anyone, I think, unless you're really, *really*, like "circus fatman" overweight... with that said, the best training for martial arts is to do....._martial arts_. If you can find one, a boxing gym-and the boxing regimen-is really, in my opinion, one of the best ways to get into shape and lose weight, and an excellent complement to many forms of martial arts training.

Be advised: depending upon how "young" you are, you might not get "Miyama ryu" training, and be put into the judo program-Miyama ryu is rarely taught to anyone under 14....still, from experience I can say that judo is excellent preparation for Miyama ryu, which is really (though I'm likely asking for a beating saying so) primarily  about using judo for self-defense.


----------



## Chris Parker

elder999 said:


> Pretty sure this guy's some kind of troll: from the misspelling of Chris's name right down to the apparent lack of command of the English language, to the downright obtuseness in this and other threads, I have to conclude that he's playing some sort of game.
> 
> No human being could possibly be so stupid.



Going with the benefit of the doubt for the moment… but only for the moment… I'm going to try this one last time.



moonhill99 said:


> May be I should of ask question of why the Japanese jiujitsu system is not that popular out side of Japan but the western jiujitsu is really popular.
> 
> Is it just fad and popularity?



No. 

For the last time, it's got nothing to do with being "popular"… you might say that, in the US, it's more common to find Western systems than actual Japanese ones, but by the same token, you'll find dominantly Japanese systems in Japan, and few Western ones.

It has nothing to do with being "popular".



moonhill99 said:


> Or I was thinking the martial arts instructors not interested in the history and teaching
> Japan system. That I think Chris was saying that not case.



No.

It's that you're dealing with instructors who have learnt modern, Western systems. Nothing to do with interest or not, just that they can only teach what they've learnt.



moonhill99 said:


> Chris saying has nothing to do with interest in it. If so why is the western jiujitsu more popular.



It's not. It's just more common in the US. That is not the same thing.



moonhill99 said:


> Chris was going on about they can only teach want they know. So how would they know it with out training in Japan or finding school in US that teach old classic Japan system.



What??? They wouldn't. That was the point.



moonhill99 said:


> Remember Chris said they can only teach want they know.



Yes.



moonhill99 said:


> So I take it more complex than a martial arts instructor that cannot just study the history out of book and moves and techniques they used in Japan out of book? That they cannot study in it but have to train in it. It be too complex even for a martial arts instructor.



No, you cannot learn a specific system by reading books, you need to be taught it. There is no such single art as "Japanese Jujutsu".



moonhill99 said:


> I guess this where Chris was saying they can only teach want they know.



No. It's nowhere near that complex.



moonhill99 said:


> Chris I think this is miscommunication problem.



No, I don't think that's the case… there's certainly a communication issue, but I don't think miscommunication is it… 



moonhill99 said:


> Before you started replying, I was talking with Tony that was saying these systems are western jiujitsu systems not Japan system.



Which is because every example you came up with were modern, Western eclectic systems that use the name "jiujitsu" in some form. None of them were Japanese, nor what would be classified as "jujutsu" by some.



moonhill99 said:


> Other than me asking Tony what is the difference of two systems, I was going on about.



There are no "two systems"… that's been explained to you since Tony first answered you. Jujutsu is a very broad categorisation of a large number of Japanese unarmed and lightly armed systems from over Japans history… there is no single art called "Japanese Jujutsu". While there will be certain traits that are shared between them, no two systems are the same in any form at all.



moonhill99 said:


> Martial arts instructors leaving out curriculum,moves and techniques of system in Japan.



The only way they could do that is to be teaching a specific Japanese system, but not in it's entirety. There is no single art, no single curriculum, no single approach, no single methodology called Japanese Jujutsu.



moonhill99 said:


> By study I mean book on moves,techniques and curriculum.



Pointless.



moonhill99 said:


> You said they can only teach want they know.



Yes.



moonhill99 said:


> So I take it is more complex than a martial arts instructor on book on moves,techniques and curriculum. They have to train in it to get knowledge to teach it.



No, they will need to learn whatever specific system they're wanting to learn.



moonhill99 said:


> You said they can only teach want they know.



I don't think you know what that means. You repeat it, like so much else here, but nothing seems to have sunk in.



moonhill99 said:


> So that what I was getting at, is there lack of knowledge of Japan system out side of Japan or just lack of interest in it.Where by the western jiujitsu system is more popular.



Oh, for crying out loud… no. Just no, to all of that. It's not more popular, it's not a lack of interest, and it's not a lack of knowledge. A tennis coach doesn't coach wrestling, not for lack of interest, knowledge, popularity, or anything else in wrestling, it's because they know how to coach tennis.



elder999 said:


> Be advised: depending upon how "young" you are, you might not get "Miyama ryu" training, and be put into the judo program-Miyama ryu is rarely taught to anyone under 14....still, from experience I can say that judo is excellent preparation for Miyama ryu, which is really (though I'm likely asking for a beating saying so) primarily  about using judo for self-defense.



Well… his profile says he's 29… if that's accurate, of course…


----------



## moonhill99

elder999 said:


> Pretty sure this guy's some kind of troll: from the misspelling of Chris's name right down to the apparent lack of command of the English language, to the downright obtuseness in this and other threads, I have to conclude that he's playing some sort of game.
> 
> No human being could possibly be so stupid.




Chris's last post today pretty much answers it all. 

Chris likes to argue and I think the way he was replying to my posts in a colorful way was making a communication problem. This thread was all over the place and talking about many things that reading comprehension and quoted who said what was problem.


----------



## moonhill99

elder999 said:


> I started Miyama ryu *jujutsu* in 1981. Before that, I'd studied judo and Kyokushin karate-both of which I've continued, as well as studying....other things.....Since Pereiera's death in 1999, and even before that,  Miyama ryu has diverged a little  bit here and there, depending upon who was teaching it and where they were. While  I've never been to the Miami dojo, I can say that Echavarria sensei and his people are excellent....
> 
> 
> 
> It will be *hard*, but you wouldn't be the first "overweight" person to benefit from the training-it only gets harder, and the first few kyu grades are just not that difficult for....anyone, I think, unless you're really, *really*, like "circus fatman" overweight... with that said, the best training for martial arts is to do....._martial arts_. If you can find one, a boxing gym-and the boxing regimen-is really, in my opinion, one of the best ways to get into shape and lose weight, and an excellent complement to many forms of martial arts training.
> 
> Be advised: depending upon how "young" you are, you might not get "Miyama ryu" training, and be put into the judo program-Miyama ryu is rarely taught to anyone under 14....still, from experience I can say that judo is excellent preparation for Miyama ryu, which is really (though I'm likely asking for a beating saying so) primarily  about using judo for self-defense.




There is other jiujitsu school in Miami.






Mushin Martial Arts Robaina Bootcamp Fitness

It seems more Aikido like and hardly any Judo moves.


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## Tony Dismukes

moonhill99 said:


> There is other jiujitsu school in Miami.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mushin Martial Arts Robaina Bootcamp Fitness
> 
> It seems more Aikido like and hardly any Judo moves.


That's because their practice is mostly derived from various lineages tracing back to Daito Ryu, i.e. Aikido, Hapkido, and Hakko Ryu.

Honestly, though, I think you're at the point where you need to stop intellectualizing about how to categorize different arts. You want a well-rounded martial art that will teach you how to strike and grapple. You are in a major city that has plenty of good schools to choose from. You need to just start visiting some of those schools, get a feel for which ones have an atmosphere and teaching style that you will be comfortable with, pick one, and give it a try. All this discussion of categories and lineages is just confusing you and isn't really relevant to what you have stated you want to learn.


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## moonhill99

Tony Dismukes said:


> That's because their practice is mostly derived from various lineages tracing back to Daito Ryu, i.e. Aikido, Hapkido, and Hakko Ryu.
> 
> Honestly, though, I think you're at the point where you need to stop intellectualizing about how to categorize different arts. You want a well-rounded martial art that will teach you how to strike and grapple. You are in a major city that has plenty of good schools to choose from. You need to just start visiting some of those schools, get a feel for which ones have an atmosphere and teaching style that you will be comfortable with, pick one, and give it a try. All this discussion of categories and lineages is just confusing you and isn't really relevant to what you have stated you want to learn.



Tony good jiujitsu school I would get mix of both some Aikido and some Judo moves.

I look at many of schools in Florida.

What a mess.

Some schools have more striking ,some hardly none, some do ground work ,some hardly at all, some not at all, some more judo like, some more on wrist locks, some in between,some both ,some do multiple attackers and some none at all.


I was just wondering how much Aikido and Judo moves would you get in the above video. 

Or would Aikido be more rouger and gritty in that school than nice Aikido.


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## moonhill99

Tony Dismukes said:


> That's because their practice is mostly derived from various lineages tracing back to Daito Ryu, i.e. Aikido, Hapkido, and Hakko Ryu.
> 
> Honestly, though, I think you're at the point where you need to stop intellectualizing about how to categorize different arts. You want a well-rounded martial art that will teach you how to strike and grapple. You are in a major city that has plenty of good schools to choose from. You need to just start visiting some of those schools, get a feel for which ones have an atmosphere and teaching style that you will be comfortable with, pick one, and give it a try. All this discussion of categories and lineages is just confusing you and isn't really relevant to what you have stated you want to learn.




What about this school.






















*It seems more mix of every thing than the other school.So I will get little of every thing and get feel for the different styles.*

Mix of Aikido and Judo in that school.

I hear there some Brazilian jiu jitsu in here too and kung fu.


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## Spinedoc

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how much striking a school does versus one that does little, versus ground work...etc. You are looking for the perfect art and perfect school and let me tell you....there is NO SUCH thing. Each art has strengths and weaknesses, but you won't know that until you actually start practicing.... Aikido has good blending, practices against multiple attackers, good wrist locks and throws, and some ground work from suwari waza, but it doesn't have BJJ groundwork. It doesn't have the striking of karate or TKD, it takes a long time to get good at....etc.etc. BJJ has excellent groundwork, but little striking (that I've seen), and doesn't focus on multiple attackers. Karate has excellent striking, decent wrist locks, but not much blending, and doesn't practice much against multiple attackers.....etc.etc.etc. These are all gross generalizations...which is my point. It doesn't matter.  

Do you see what I'm getting at? At some point, you need to get off the computer, pick a class go to it, see if you like it, and either stick with it, or try something else.

It's like someone trying to figure out complex algebraic subtleties in maths, without having a good foundation in basic algebra.

YMMV.


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## moonhill99

YMMV.[/QUOTE]


jks9199 said:


> Perhaps it would be beneficial to redefine your search. What are you after, without regard to names or styles,?  Are you looking for locks and holds, throws, strikes?
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk





Spinedoc said:


> It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how much striking a school does versus one that does little, versus ground work...etc. You are looking for the perfect art and perfect school and let me tell you....there is NO SUCH thing. Each art has strengths and weaknesses, but you won't know that until you actually start practicing.... Aikido has good blending, practices against multiple attackers, good wrist locks and throws, and some ground work from suwari waza, but it doesn't have BJJ groundwork. It doesn't have the striking of karate or TKD, it takes a long time to get good at....etc.etc. BJJ has excellent groundwork, but little striking (that I've seen), and doesn't focus on multiple attackers. Karate has excellent striking, decent wrist locks, but not much blending, and doesn't practice much against multiple attackers.....etc.etc.etc. These are all gross generalizations...which is my point. It doesn't matter.
> 
> Do you see what I'm getting at? At some point, you need to get off the computer, pick a class go to it, see if you like it, and either stick with it, or try something else.
> 
> It's like someone trying to figure out complex algebraic subtleties in maths, without having a good foundation in basic algebra.
> 
> YMMV.




School have some throws,take downs,wrist locks and feel for different styles Judo and Aikido.

Than if I really like Aikido I can go to Aikido school or Judo school if I like that better.

Any good jujutsu school have some striking and ground work.


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## Drose427

moonhill99 said:


> YMMV.







School have some throws,take downs,wrist locks and feel for different styles Judo and Aikido.

Than if I really like Aikido I can go to Aikido school or Judo school if I like that better.

Any good jujutsu school have some striking and ground work.[/QUOTE]

Just go to the school you liked the most. At this point everyones said everything they can. Just train for yourself


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## K-man

moonhill99 said:


> YMMV.
> 
> School have some throws,take downs,wrist locks and feel for different styles Judo and Aikido.
> 
> Than if I really like Aikido I can go to Aikido school or Judo school if I like that better.
> 
> Any good jujutsu school have some striking and ground work.


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## Xue Sheng

moonhill99 said:


> Chris's last post today pretty much answers it all.
> 
> Chris likes to argue and I think the way he was replying to my posts in a colorful way was making a communication problem. This thread was all over the place and talking about many things that reading comprehension and quoted who said what was problem.



Chris and I have had our run ins but I respect what he has to say and if nothing else he has no communications issues and is always quite clear and concise. After going through this thread all I have to say is that any comprehension issues which lead to any thing you may have perceived as arguing fall fully on you and this is not the only thread you have done this in, it seems to be your MO, which brings me to the conclusion that elder999 might just be right...and he usually is



elder999 said:


> Pretty sure this guy's some kind of troll: from the misspelling of Chris's name right down to the apparent lack of command of the English language, to the downright obtuseness in this and other threads, I have to conclude that he's playing some sort of game.
> 
> No human being could possibly be so stupid.


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## moonhill99

Xue Sheng said:


> Chris and I have had our run ins but I respect what he has to say and if nothing else he has no communications issues and is always quite clear and concise. After going through this thread all I have to say is that any comprehension issues which lead to any thing you may have perceived as arguing fall fully on you and this is not the only thread you have done this in, it seems to be your MO, which brings me to the conclusion that elder999 might just be right...and he usually is



This is the last post to this thread on it as the thread has runs its course so I'm not going to bring up the issue again on what is Japanese jiu jitsu vs western jiu jitsu.

When I started this thread I had no idea what the difference is of Japanese jiu jitsu vs western jiu jitsu. Than I had stuck in my head ideas of what Japanese jiu jitsu or how martial arts instructor in US can teach Japanese jiu jitsu that where false ideas I had.

It was communication problem between me and Chris to well Chris last post clears it up.


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## Xue Sheng

alrighy then


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## SimSportPlyr

Moonhill99, if you are familiar with AJJF schools/style, do you consider that to be traditional Japanese or Western eclectic?


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## oftheherd1

Back to your original question, you might want to try to PM or email Kong Soo Do, a member of MT.  He is in the Florida area, but I don't recall if he is in the Miami area.  Nonetheless, he should be familiar with the MA scene in Florida.  He is belted in Kong Soo Do and Hapkido.


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## Hanzou

SimSportPlyr said:


> Moonhill99, if you are familiar with AJJF schools/style, do you consider that to be traditional Japanese or Western eclectic?



Isn't that a Danzan Ryu organization?

If so, then it's western eclectic, not traditional JJJ.


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## SimSportPlyr

Hanzou said:


> Isn't that a Danzan Ryu organization?
> 
> If so, then it's western eclectic, not traditional JJJ.



Yes, AJJF is Danzan Ryu.

May I ask for a terse (1-2 sentence) description of the difference between Danzan Ryu and trad Japanese, please?


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## Hanzou

SimSportPlyr said:


> Yes, AJJF is Danzan Ryu.
> 
> May I ask for a terse (1-2 sentence) description of the difference between Danzan Ryu and trad Japanese, please?



Danzen Ryu isn't even Japanese. It was founded in Hawaii, and the founder, a Japanese immigrant, combined traditional JJ, Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, and wrestling to create the art.


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## SimSportPlyr

Hanzou said:


> Danzen Ryu isn't even Japanese. It was founded in Hawaii, and the founder, a Japanese immigrant, combined traditional JJ, Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, and wrestling to create the art.



Thanks.


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