# The Sparring Rules for Our Annual Competition/What is Illegal



## Lynne (Sep 4, 2008)

We had discussed sparring rules in another thread and they seem to differ to some degree amongst various organizations/schools.

I picked up my tournament packet for this year's competition.  I thought it might be interesting to discuss what is illegal:

Chopping to the head of any kind
Spinning hand techniques
Below the belt techniques
Sweeping in green belt or lower
Sweeping to the joint
Techniques to the back (spine)
Face contact of any kind
Running out of the ring
Coaching from the sidelines from parents, instructors, etc.
Arguing with judges about a call
Open hand techniques to the face or body
Kicks to the back of the head or back in general
Punches to back of head or back in general
Showboating (i.e., jumping up and down, raising hand in air, cheering for
  oneself when a point is scored or thought to be scored)

Ahhh...so red belts and above can do sweeps.  Hmmm.  That could be interesting.  

I noticed face contact of any kind is prohibited.  I can't say what the center judges will decide at the black belt level.

Do you think these rules are fair?  Anything that stands out as unusual or surprising?


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## Empty Hands (Sep 4, 2008)

Lynne said:


> Do you think these rules are fair?  Anything that stands out as unusual or surprising?



Looks pretty standard.  The main difference with ours is we allow the groin as a target, and boot-to-boot sweeps at any level.


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## Lynne (Sep 4, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Looks pretty standard. The main difference with ours is we allow the groin as a target, and boot-to-boot sweeps at any level.


 Good grief, are you serious about groin strikes?  I know the guys can wear cups but doesn't the testosterone really flare when a male gets kicked in the groin?  Seems like you'd lose control whether you are a teenager or adult.  How do you keep controlled?  Don't you get mad as heck?

My first tournament, two teenage boys were sparring.  That didn't last long.  One kicked the other in the groin right off the bat.  When they resumed sparring, the one who'd been hit in the groin punched the other boy in the mouth, drawing blood.  Of course, the one punching in the mouth was disqualified for drawing blood.

These boys were green belts, too.  I have to wonder about that groin kick, whether it was on purpose.


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## Empty Hands (Sep 4, 2008)

Lynne said:


> Good grief, are you serious about groin strikes?  I know the guys can wear cups but doesn't the testosterone really flare when a male gets kicked in the groin?  Seems like you'd lose control whether you are a teenager or adult.  How do you keep controlled?  Don't you get mad as heck?



Sure I'm serious, and no I haven't seen anyone fly into a rage yet.   I don't really get the rage aspect of it.  The worst I've ever caught was a spinning back kick to the groin, and even that was a "ouch that smarts a bit" level rather than a "OMG PAIN MUST KILL!" level.  I haven't seen anyone lose their cool yet.  Even when I was fighting a guy that blatantly ignored contact level instructions (when I don't!) and cracked me right across the face, I didn't lose it.  I guess at the end of the day we are all friends, almost family, so we all understand we aren't trying to destroy each other.

Besides, the groin isn't the end-all-be-all of a target in a tournament fight.  A proper neutral stance will protect you fairly well from most strikes, and the (generally) roundhouse kicks that do make it in don't cause a lot of damage.


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## Lynne (Sep 5, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Sure I'm serious, and no I haven't seen anyone fly into a rage yet.  I don't really get the rage aspect of it. The worst I've ever caught was a spinning back kick to the groin, and even that was a "ouch that smarts a bit" level rather than a "OMG PAIN MUST KILL!" level. I haven't seen anyone lose their cool yet. Even when I was fighting a guy that blatantly ignored contact level instructions (when I don't!) and cracked me right across the face, I didn't lose it. I guess at the end of the day we are all friends, almost family, so we all understand we aren't trying to destroy each other.
> 
> Besides, the groin isn't the end-all-be-all of a target in a tournament fight. A proper neutral stance will protect you fairly well from most strikes, and the (generally) roundhouse kicks that do make it in don't cause a lot of damage.


 Oh, ok, I see.  Now, these boys in the tournament did not know one another and they also knew the rules were no strikes below the belt.  The one hit was leaning over and clutching for a few minutes.  Could be he was in a lot of pain.  I doubt that strike to the mouth was an accident.

Friendly battering or not, glad I'm not a male in your art, lol.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 5, 2008)

"Open-hand strikes..." <- I assume that means palm strikes? "Open-hand" can mean "without weapon" as well, and that would seem to preclude _any_ hand techniques.

Sweeping? Sounds fun. I don't see it happening if you don't allow grappling, though. I don't see grab moves on the list; does that mean they're legal? 

The rules for ITF sparring are pretty simple: 
(1) attacks have to be above the belt.
(2) no hand attacks to the head
(3) no excessive contact
(4) no drawing blood or redness
(5) no grabbing/sweeping
(6) show proper TSD spirit. 

Paraphrased a little bit, of course.


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## Lynne (Sep 5, 2008)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> "Open-hand strikes..." <- I assume that means palm strikes? "Open-hand" can mean "without weapon" as well, and that would seem to preclude _any_ hand techniques.
> 
> Sweeping? Sounds fun. I don't see it happening if you don't allow grappling, though. I don't see grab moves on the list; does that mean they're legal?
> 
> ...


 Hi JT,

I don't believe grab moves are legal so I'm not sure how you'd do a sweep.  Maybe just sweep as the person is moving backward, or sweep and punch???

When I think of open hand, I think of our art as being an art of no weapons, too.  Maybe the statement means no spearhands, palmstrikes or finger jabs.

So, you are not allowed to punch to the head?  Reading our instructions carefully, I would believe that punches to the head are allowed - just not to the back of the head.  They'd have to be far back enough to not strike the temple.


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## CoryKS (Sep 5, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Looks pretty standard. The main difference with ours is we allow the groin as a target, and boot-to-boot sweeps at any level.


 
Same here.  Actually had the head instructor from one of our area schools mention that he was disappointed by the low number of groin shots he was seeing out there.


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## zDom (Sep 5, 2008)

Howabout "intentionally turning back to opponent (except to do a spinning/turning kick) to avoid being hit" ?

There are "freestyle karate" schools around here who have exploited "no back" contact to the point where their sparring stance now shows more of their back than their side or front


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## Blindside (Sep 5, 2008)

Lynne said:


> Friendly battering or not, glad I'm not a male in your art, lol.


 
Its supposed to teach you NOT to get hit there.  Take a look at how the front leg is positioned in the kenpo neutral bow or jkd bai jong, they are both aligned to prevent easy entry to the groin.  Contrast that with TKD walking stance and you can see which arts take lowline kicks into serious consideration.  

And incidentally, whenever you fight someone who isn't used to sparring with the groin allowable as a target (read TKDer, TSDer) it really throws them off their entire game that whenever they raise their lead leg they receive a little pop to the boys.

Lamont

PS: Groin kicks are effective on women too, you just need to use better targeting.


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## Lynne (Sep 6, 2008)

zDom said:


> Howabout "intentionally turning back to opponent (except to do a spinning/turning kick) to avoid being hit" ?
> 
> There are "freestyle karate" schools around here who have exploited "no back" contact to the point where their sparring stance now shows more of their back than their side or front


 Good point.  Turning to the side is ok, but I believe that turning the back a few times will invite a warning.  At first, I thought a higher belt was telling me to turn my back.  He was telling me to turn sideways...


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 6, 2008)

@ blindside: Believe me, I've received more than a few shots to the _ko wan_...that's why I tend to make my kicks short jabs. You just gotta watch the opponent and keep your hands ready to block. The TSD fighting stance is designed to be able to move in and out quickly, which, as you pointed out, has the unfortunate side effect of having the hips facing forward.


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## Yossarian (Sep 6, 2008)

I find sparring with high kicks you tend to get a lot of accidental groin shots. This usually teaches you to be more carefull.


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## cdunn (Sep 9, 2008)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> "Open-hand strikes..." <- I assume that means palm strikes? "Open-hand" can mean "without weapon" as well, and that would seem to preclude _any_ hand techniques.
> 
> Sweeping? Sounds fun. I don't see it happening if you don't allow grappling, though. I don't see grab moves on the list; does that mean they're legal?
> 
> Paraphrased a little bit, of course.


 


Lynne said:


> Hi JT,
> 
> I don't believe grab moves are legal so I'm not sure how you'd do a sweep. Maybe just sweep as the person is moving backward, or sweep and punch???
> 
> When I think of open hand, I think of our art as being an art of no weapons, too. Maybe the statement means no spearhands, palmstrikes or finger jabs.


 
They want you to use closed fists - That's what the rule refers to in practice.

Last year sweeping was a non-factor in my divison. While there are a number of techniques you can apply, even under the rules, they're all 'while passing the opponent' type techniques, and that's kind of hard to get in tournament fighting.


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