# WT-ITF Do I have to start over?



## Coolsweetspiceoflife (Sep 3, 2017)

What's up.  I'm a 3rd Dan in World TaeKwonDo.  I've been working on my boxing/kickboxing at my local gym.  Although it's apparent that I am not a Thai Boxer, I enjoy sparring with KB/Muay Thai/Sanda rules and I see that TKD in fact works when used correctly against these guys.    

I want to continue in Tae Kwon Do.  However here are some reasons I want to switch to ITF:

ITF is the original TKD.
Sparring with the hogu annoys me.
No hands to the face is a bit crazy.  (I want to teach and don't feel comfortable teaching it with that huge hole).
Not full contact anymore.  (I know they're trying to get it together, but i'm not a fan).
No adults seem to stick with it.  (i'm grown & always sparring teens and adult beginners doesn't appeal to me). 
Doesn't transfer well into competing with other arts. (I like sparring against Karate, KB, Thai boxing etc).  

Would I have to start over if I switch to ITF from WT; or would they just have me test in all the poomse, combination, breaking, self defense and sparring?  Is there a governing rule for ITF or is it according to individual schools.


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## andyjeffries (Sep 4, 2017)

Just to be clear (and possibly start another flame fest) ITF is not the original TKD. The ITF was founded first out of the two but the KTA was before that and the KTA is affiliated with WT/KKW not ITF.

On to your question at hand - I can't answer specifically, but I've found that WT/KKW schools (mine included) are happy to accept ITF students, cross them over to KKW rank and just test them when they know the correct syllabus and can perform it to the required standard. I can't answer for if ITF is so inclusive though.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 4, 2017)

Coolsweetspiceoflife said:


> What's up.  I'm a 3rd Dan in World TaeKwonDo.  I've been working on my boxing/kickboxing at my local gym.  Although it's apparent that I am not a Thai Boxer, I enjoy sparring with KB/Muay Thai/Sanda rules and I see that TKD in fact works when used correctly against these guys.



No, you're not. There's no such thing as WTF TKD. By 3rd Dan, you really ought to know this.



Coolsweetspiceoflife said:


> I want to continue in Tae Kwon Do.  However here are some reasons I want to switch to ITF:
> 
> ITF is the original TKD.



No it's not. There is no "original" TKD. The KTA was formed to unify the various Kwans and develop a combined curriculum. Gen Choi and his Oh Do Kwan split off and went their own way. But all of those Kwans are every bit as "original" as the ITF.



Coolsweetspiceoflife said:


> Sparring with the hogu annoys me.
> No hands to the face is a bit crazy.  (I want to teach and don't feel comfortable teaching it with that huge hole).



So? Sparring under WTF rules is only one type of sparring taught by Kukkiwon schools. If your school doesn't do this, the problem lies with their sport TKD focus, but with TKD or even the Kukkiwon.

What belt you wear would be up to the school. But bear in mind that it IS a different system, and you don't know the curriculum. Personally, I'd much rather wear a white belt and have people wonder why than wear a black belt and have people wonder why. You will likely feel quite the fool when lower ranked students ask you for help with a form and you don't know it.

We're happy to let people with Dan ranks from other systems wear their rank in our Moo Duk Kwan school. But it's been my experience that the only ones who actual learn the curriculum are those who start over.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 4, 2017)

Focus on what you want to learn rather than the alphabet soup. 
What you have around your waist will be at the discretion of the school as well as the organization. 
If your physical skills are adequate  you should be able to learn material more quickly than an unskilled person and move up the ranks more quickly. 
ITF is an organization(s) which governs Curriculum, Rank, and competition..  WTF is  the sport org with it's closely related Sister" org the KKW setting curriculum and rank standards and practices. 
What someone considers "Original" TKD is often a matter of their perspective. 
ITF uses the Chang Hon System of TKD exclusively . This was the first new system to be called TKD. Some of the previously existing Korean systems later chose to adopt this name.  Some did not.  As such Chang Hon was the only original system with strong roots in prior Japanese / Okinawan systems also used by other Korean systems.  So, from some perspectives Chang Hon was the first original born to the  "TKD" moniker as opposed to something else already in existence.   KKW initially accepted many systems under it's umbrella. but also developed another system beginning almost 20 years later. 
ITF using the Chang Hon system exclusively is often referred to as original TKD just as the WTF which is so strongly related to WTF is often referred to as WTF TKD.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> No, you're not. There's no such thing as WTF TKD. By 3rd Dan, you really ought to know this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


DD, what does "kwan" mean in this context? And is that the same "kwan" found in the name of the art?


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## Danny T (Sep 4, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> DD, what does "kwan" mean in this context? And is that the same "kwan" found in the name of the art?


I understand Kwan as a hall or building. In the context of a martial arts it would be a particular group, clan, or school.
Kwon I believe means hand or fist.


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## TrueJim (Sep 4, 2017)

I'm not an expert, but:

관 (k-oh-ah-n) = kwan can be "hall", but as Danny T points out, in this context it's more like school (not the _physical_ school so much as the leadership and curriculum of the school).

권 (k-oo-uh-n) = kwon, from the romanization of Chinese 拳 = fist. Reference: 拳 - Wiktionary

Also, as I understand it, jang (장) can be "place", so dojang (도장, the place of the way) is the word used for the _physical_ school (akin to Japanese dojo 道場).


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 4, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> DD, what does "kwan" mean in this context? And is that the same "kwan" found in the name of the art?



In this context it refers to a school or system. Moo Duk Kwan, (one of the original kwan that formed the KTA) means "School of Martial Virtue" just as one example.


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## Coolsweetspiceoflife (Sep 9, 2017)

andyjeffries said:


> Just to be clear (and possibly start another flame fest) ITF is not the original TKD. The ITF was founded first out of the two but the KTA was before that and the KTA is affiliated with WT/KKW not ITF.
> 
> On to your question at hand - I can't answer specifically, but I've found that WT/KKW schools (mine included) are happy to accept ITF students, cross them over to KKW rank and just test them when they know the correct syllabus and can perform it to the required standard. I can't answer for if ITF is so inclusive though.



Thanks for clarifying that.


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## Coolsweetspiceoflife (Sep 9, 2017)

Never called it WTF and I have zero reason to fabricate rank, but thanks for clarifying.  I was unaware of the Kukkiwon having another form of sparring.  Being active duty I move a lot internationally and have always seen schools operating and competing with Olympic rules.  Perhaps I'll come across a different form of Kukkiwon sparring in the near future.  Until then I'll just keep practicing forms, self defense and sparring MT/KB/Karate practitioners. 



Dirty Dog said:


> No, you're not. There's no such thing as WTF TKD. By 3rd Dan, you really ought to know this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Axiom (Sep 9, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> No it's not. There is no "original" TKD. The KTA was formed to unify the various Kwans and develop a combined curriculum. Gen Choi and his Oh Do Kwan split off and went their own way. But all of those Kwans are every bit as "original" as the ITF.
> 
> 
> .



While that is  true, it is also the case that the TaeKwonDo encyklopedia referenced Chois Oh Do Kwan TKD patterns. So Choi did to TaeKwonDo what Funakoshi did to Shotokan... Even though Shotokan was not the first Karate style, it was the first one introduced internationally (as far as I know).


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## Axiom (Sep 9, 2017)

Coolsweetspiceoflife said:


> What's up.  I'm a 3rd Dan in World TaeKwonDo.  I've been working on my boxing/kickboxing at my local gym.  Although it's apparent that I am not a Thai Boxer, I enjoy sparring with KB/Muay Thai/Sanda rules and I see that TKD in fact works when used correctly against these guys.
> 
> I want to continue in Tae Kwon Do.  However here are some reasons I want to switch to ITF:
> 
> ...



For what it's worth, General Choi claims in a Youtube interview that a 4th Dan could start as a first degree black belt in ITF. But since you're a third dan, I guess you have to start all over!

Seriously though, let us know what happened.


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## Axiom (Sep 9, 2017)

By the way, your ability to go full contact is solely dependent on your partner and the instructor. I don't think the instructor would mind, but I suggest you make it clear that you want to spar full contact with a specific person.


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## Axiom (Sep 9, 2017)

Earl Weiss said:


> If your physical skills are adequate  you should be able to learn material more quickly than an unskilled person and move up the ranks more quickly.



But his question was if he has to start all over? Would you seriously have a 3rd Dan start over as a white belt? The first Chon Ji pattern is not exactly "style dependent"...He should at the very least be able to grade for it right away IMO


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## Jaeimseu (Sep 9, 2017)

Axiom said:


> But his question was if he has to start all over? Would you seriously have a 3rd Dan start over as a white belt? The first Chon Ji pattern is not exactly "style dependent"...He should at the very least be able to grade for it right away IMO



I find it hard to believe that the majority of Kukkiwon Taekwondo instructors would require an ITF 3rd dan to start over at white belt. I know I wouldn't do that. However,I would be a little concerned if rank was the primary concern of a potential new student. 


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## Axiom (Sep 9, 2017)

Jaeimseu said:


> I find it hard to believe that the majority of Kukkiwon Taekwondo instructors would require an ITF 3rd dan to start over at white belt. .
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yeah but the question is the reverse here It's not entirely certain that the ITF is as open-minded. If a red belt from an ITF-off-shoot (minus Sine Wave) had to start over as a white belt, despite being graded in the same patterns, then lord knows how a KKW would be treated: )


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## Jaeimseu (Sep 9, 2017)

Axiom said:


> Yeah but the question is the reverse here It's not entirely certain that the ITF is as open-minded. If a red belt from an ITF-off-shoot (minus Sine Wave) had to start over as a white belt, despite being graded in the same patterns, then lord knows how a KKW would be treated: )



I wouldn't have thought the ITF was "big time" enough at this point to disregard a KKW cert, especially since KKW will convert an ITF dan. 


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## Axiom (Sep 9, 2017)

Jaeimseu said:


> I wouldn't have thought the ITF was "big time" enough at this point to disregard a KKW cert, especially since KKW will convert an ITF dan.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



But the difference is that he's a third degree black belt who has yet to spar face punching TKD. Everything the KKW does sparring-wise, an ITF black belt has done (roughly speaking), but not vice versa.


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## Jaeimseu (Sep 9, 2017)

Axiom said:


> But the difference is that he's a third degree black belt who has yet to spar face punching TKD. Everything the KKW does sparring-wise, an ITF black belt has done (roughly speaking), but not vice versa.



That's probably a bit too general a statement. Anyway, I'm not sure what a sparring rule-set has to do with rank. 


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## Coolsweetspiceoflife (Sep 9, 2017)

Jaeimseu said:


> I find it hard to believe that the majority of Kukkiwon Taekwondo instructors would require an ITF 3rd dan to start over at white belt. I know I wouldn't do that. However,I would be a little concerned if rank was the primary concern of a potential new student.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Rank is definitely not the most important thing to me.  I rarely get the motivation to test for promotion.  I like for my abilities to be better than my rank and only wear a solid black belt with no stripes.  I just think it's weird/predatory to go to another taekwondo school with over 20 years of experience and put a white belt, like I'm new.  When I get back I'll check to see what's up.  This is good convo.  Thanks everyone.  Pleased to see that my question didn't spark a lot of sassy replies.


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## Axiom (Sep 10, 2017)

Jaeimseu said:


> That's probably a bit too general a statement. Anyway, I'm not sure what a sparring rule-set has to do with rank.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I think proficiency in sparring is just as relevant to rank as patterns is. I also feel the amount of overlap and demands for the lower belts is of the nature that he could easily start as a green belt, since it is not expected of him to "master" anything at that point.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2017)

Coolsweetspiceoflife said:


> Rank is definitely not the most important thing to me.  I rarely get the motivation to test for promotion.  I like for my abilities to be better than my rank and only wear a solid black belt with no stripes.  I just think it's weird/predatory to go to another taekwondo school with over 20 years of experience and put a white belt, like I'm new.  When I get back I'll check to see what's up.  This is good convo.  Thanks everyone.  Pleased to see that my question didn't spark a lot of sassy replies.


I think I understand what you mean about it being weird to go in and put on a white belt, especially if you'll be sent to spar with white belts. Consider this: what if your current rank was in Shotokan Karate? The issue would likely be the same, but you'd know that you'd be starting over. I've both trained alongside and taught guys who came into my primary art after significant experience (including some 1st, 2nd, and 4th dan - oddly, no 3rd that I can think of) in other arts. They had to start as white belts, but couldn't be treated entirely as white belts, for obvious reasons. Even if you had to start back at white (which I would doubt, but is a possibility), the instructor should be able to keep you sparring with appropriate partners while you are working to rank up to the appropriate level. And for the times you get paired with lower level students, I assume you already have to do some of that, anyway, so you know how to control your technique to be fair to their skill level. The real question wouldn't be whether you'd be predatory, but whether you'd be getting enough strong opposition to develop your own skills.


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## Flatfish (Sep 10, 2017)

When I went to check out a Chung Do Kwan school after receiving my first Dan in KKW TKD, I did not mention my rank. About half way through the class the instructor asked me and was gonna treat me like a BB. Felt weird though because I didn't know any of the curriculum. I would have been fine with putting on a white belt and maybe progress through the ranks a bit quicker.

My old KKW school also only did Olympic style sparring ( one of the reason I got a bit fed up with it).

Lastly both the KKW and the CDK school were mostly kids and maybe some teens, which was discouraging.

In the end I decided to switch arts.


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## Axiom (Sep 10, 2017)

There was a 4th or 5th Dan in Shotokan Karate who wanted to start training ITF TaeKwonDo and was rejected by the instructor because he (the student) was higher rated than him, and didn't feel that asn an instructor that he would be qualifed to teach the person.

I find that very puzzling given that: A) ITF will teach *completely* different kicking and punching tactics . B) different, continious fighting rules from JKAs stop-format. C) Different stances  and D) teaches hyperextending the knee when kicking in forms.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2017)

Axiom said:


> There was a 4th or 5th Dan in Shotokan Karate who wanted to start training ITF TaeKwonDo and was rejected by the instructor because he (the student) was higher rated than him, and didn't feel that asn an instructor that he would be qualifed to teach the person.
> 
> I find that very puzzling given that: A) ITF will teach *completely* different kicking and punching tactics . B) different, continious fighting rules from JKAs stop-format. C) Different stances  and D) teaches hyperextending the knee when kicking in forms.


I would love to have someone come in with more advanced skill, wanting to learn from me. It would improve what I teach, no doubt. And I wouldn't hesitate to learn from someone of much lower rank in another art, so long as they have something to teach.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Sep 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I would love to have someone come in with more advanced skill, wanting to learn from me. It would improve what I teach, no doubt.



So long as it's not a ruse to take your students to his new school opening soon!

I saw that at the UFC gym. A guy talked about how good he was, how the instructors at the UFC gym were mediocre, and that he was opening a school next month that I try for a few weeks.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2017)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> So long as it's not a ruse to take your students to his new school opening soon!
> 
> I saw that at the UFC gym. A guy talked about how good he was, how the instructors at the UFC gym were mediocre, and that he was opening a school next month that I try for a few weeks.


My students would mostly consider that a dick move. The best he could hope for would be to cost me some students - he'd be unlikely to gain any.


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## JR 137 (Sep 10, 2017)

Not really an answer to the original question, but I feel it's worth mentioning...

My former teacher had everyone who had previous experience wear a white belt for a month or 3 until he got a solid understanding of where/what that student should be ranked.  The student would be paired up with everyone (age appropriately) in the dojo during sparring during that time.  That part's not an anomaly though, as we all sparred each other, regardless of rank.

I think his approach was very good and effective.  One woman left afterwards as she didn't like going from a 3rd dan in TKD to a brown belt in our Kyokushin offshoot school.  That's where he felt she should be ranked, and objectively speaking, so did pretty much everyone else.

Edit: Don't take that as me saying every TKD 3rd dan is equal to a Kyokushin brown belt.  It was her abilities that determined that, not her background.


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## andyjeffries (Sep 11, 2017)

Flatfish said:


> When I went to check out a Chung Do Kwan school after receiving my first Dan in KKW TKD, I did not mention my rank.



I would hope they would recognise your KKW 1st Dan. Chungdokwan supports Kukkiwon syllabus and rank 100% (the same as all of the original kwans, including Ohdokwan Korea HQ). Chungdokwan Taekwondo isn't different to Kukkiwon Taekwondo (at least it shouldn't be now and if you visit the CDK HQ in Korea, it will be exactly the same techniques as KKW).

Reasoning: I'm a Changmookwan member and know this is how it is from talking with my Kwan seniors at the CMK HQ, I also have a lot of Chungdokwan friends.


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## Axiom (Sep 11, 2017)

How about red belt or black stripe? Are those ranks transferable into a KKW federeration?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 11, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Not really an answer to the original question, but I feel it's worth mentioning...
> 
> My former teacher had everyone who had previous experience wear a white belt for a month or 3 until he got a solid understanding of where/what that student should be ranked.  The student would be paired up with everyone (age appropriately) in the dojo during sparring during that time.  That part's not an anomaly though, as we all sparred each other, regardless of rank.
> 
> ...


This would be my approach, with the only adjustment being they'd need to pass the appropriate tests. I'd give some pretty broad latitude on the technical replication of form (that can be learned later), but they would need to know the techniques appropriate to the rank. So, a Karateka probably becomes a white belt, as does a Jiujitero. A Judoka, Aikidoka, Hapkidoist, or Jujutsuka probably moves to a higher (than white) rank after an adjustment and evaluation period.


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## Flatfish (Sep 11, 2017)

andyjeffries said:


> I would hope they would recognise your KKW 1st Dan. Chungdokwan supports Kukkiwon syllabus and rank 100% (the same as all of the original kwans, including Ohdokwan Korea HQ). Chungdokwan Taekwondo isn't different to Kukkiwon Taekwondo (at least it shouldn't be now and if you visit the CDK HQ in Korea, it will be exactly the same techniques as KKW).
> 
> Reasoning: I'm a Changmookwan member and know this is how it is from talking with my Kwan seniors at the CMK HQ, I also have a lot of Chungdokwan friends.




Interesting, I guess I should have said CDK offshoot. Their Kwang Jang Nim founded his own TKD association here in the US 30 years ago. That might explain why they are not aligned with the current CDK/KKW curriculum. They were definitely teaching the Chang Hon forms.


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## JR 137 (Sep 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This would be my approach, with the only adjustment being they'd need to pass the appropriate tests. I'd give some pretty broad latitude on the technical replication of form (that can be learned later), but they would need to know the techniques appropriate to the rank. So, a Karateka probably becomes a white belt, as does a Jiujitero. A Judoka, Aikidoka, Hapkidoist, or Jujutsuka probably moves to a higher (than white) rank after an adjustment and evaluation period.


They had to know pretty much everything required for the rank they were awarded.  The person I referenced in my post you quoted knew about 90% of the brown belt and below material.  It was a matter of tweaking a few things, learning a kata or two, etc.  She had the mentality of "once a black belt, always a black belt" but didn't comprehend that even if that's true (which it isn't always true), it doesn't mean always a black belt in every art out there.  No different than when I had a black belt in karate, I wouldn't expect my rank to carry over to TKD, BJJ, nor anything else.

The first karate organization I joined was founded by two senior black belts who came from my current organization.  The curriculum up to and including shodan is about 95% the same in both.  Where they split is at nidan.  I went into my current school knowing 95% of the syllabus for the rank I left at.  It was a matter of learning 4 kata, 3 of which are pretty simple, and a series of 7 simple choreographed solo drills.  I started at white belt and tested for every rank so far.  I'm currently at 3rd kyu, and will test for 2nd kyu right around the holidays (barring injury and/or illness).  I'll be there 3 years in February.

And I wouldn't want it any other way.  I'm far better today than I ever was previously.  Testing for shodan under Nakamura will be great, and I look forward to when that happens.  Not for the rank and/or belt, but for the test itself.  I'm in no hurry though; it'll happen when it happens.  If it takes another 3 years, so be it.

Anyone hung up on rank and/or belts would've left.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Sep 11, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> No, you're not. There's no such thing as WTF TKD. By 3rd Dan, you really ought to know this.
> Personally, I'd much rather wear a white belt and have people wonder why than wear a black belt and have people wonder why. You will likely feel quite the fool when lower ranked students ask you for help with a form and you don't know it.



Personally I'd have no "pride" issue in wearing a white belt.  I'd just want to clarify ahead of time what the testing would cost if the instructor says something like, "just start at white, and you'll test each month as you learn the material".


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 11, 2017)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Personally I'd have no "pride" issue in wearing a white belt.  I'd just want to clarify ahead of time what the testing would cost if the instructor says something like, "just start at white, and you'll test each month as you learn the material".



Testing fees are certainly something that should be up front.


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