# Executioner's Blade



## Seig (May 22, 2002)

I had to do something this evening that all new school owners dread.  I have had a student that has been with me on and off for almost 2 years.  Tonight, I had to ask him to leave and to not return.  In addition to the fact that he is wearing a gi that has not been washed in months, it has salt crusted on it, I have had every one of my students request not to work with him.  He has managed to hurt every one of them.  Repeated warnings have not stopped him.  He says I have never said anything to him, I told him every class.  Me pasting him when he tried to hurt me was not a warning, he tried to get even.  Friday night was the final straw.  We were working on "applied kenpo".  The was working with a 15 year old and had him in a choke.  The 15 year old tried to tap out 3 times and the other student merely aplied more pressure instead of releasing.  I hate to have to do it, but he became a professional and personal liability......:toilclaw:


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## Rob_Broad (May 22, 2002)

Good Job!!!


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## Roland (May 22, 2002)

I once had to tell a student to leave. It was several years ago, but it still feels funny. Similar problem, student was hurting others, and talking trash about other students.

Someone once told me, "you can not build a school with flakes".
 In other words, help the ones who want and need help, keep working with those who like to work, but, do not let ANYONE drag you, your students or your school down.

It can be very hard. Most of us here, I imagine, hate giving up on anything. 
 I say, we are not giving up on any of these people, just pointing them to a place that will be more helpful to them.

:soapbox:


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## Michael Billings (May 22, 2002)

Seig,

I had to let one of my green belts go about a year ago ... who was ready to test for brown.  He knocked someone down with a sucker punch in a sparring class (at their level it was not a class but a sparring workout.)  The other guy was a Black Belt in one of those other arts & a decent fighter.  Not much for sparring, but a great fighter.  He had done a very controlled takedown and my student just got embarrased, mad, then even (in his eyes.) The guy knocked down was not upset about the punch. But my guy had been with me for several years, I had suspended him once for his attitude and talked about him "running off students with his aggression"   

The school has to be a reflection of your character, not one of your students.  The saying "One bad apple can ruin ...."  may not be exactly true, it still effects your schools "personality" or the "training environment."  

I still am upset that this guy had to leave the school.  I miss him personally a lot, but I do not miss his intimidation of other students.  Oh yeah, he liked it when I thumped him.  He was a 230 lbs. of pure muscle, cut up, ex-airborne ranger ... unlike the Marines, he was an "ex".  

Hard thing to do.  Hang tough, I am sure you made the right decision.

-Michael Billings
United Kenpo Systems - Texas


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## Sandor (May 22, 2002)

Seig,

Sorry to hear about your situation. I have had to let people go a few times over the years. You did the right thing.

Peace,
Sandor


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## Goldendragon7 (May 22, 2002)

Regardless how hard....... you need to cut the cancer or watch it spread and kill your business.

Good move...

Remember the 4 letter word.........NEEEEEEXT!

:asian:


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## Kirk (May 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Regardless how hard....... you need to cut the cancer or watch it spread and kill your business.
> 
> ...



Don't hold back, sir, tell us how you really feel!


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## Goldendragon7 (May 23, 2002)

I was too harsh......

WELL I WASN'T!!!!!!!!!

:rofl: :asian:


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## Seig (May 23, 2002)

Guys,  
Thanks for the support.  It has been a decision that I have been avoiding for months.  It was hard to do, and as small as I am, loosing the revenue hurt too.  Years ago, my dad built a charter fishing business and I grew up working it with him.  When I got home, I talked to him about it.  He said pretty much the same things you all did.  No point in having one customer, and at this point I have to look at the ex-student as a customer, run off your others.  The kid he hurt is one of my most stalwart people and one of the students I have the most pride in because of his accomplisments, personal and MA.  That was the final straw.  This is the first student I have had to let go.  Hopefully it will never get easier, and hopefully I won't have to it with any kind of regularity.
I have to add,  I knew I had done the right thing when all of my other students gave a collective sigh of relief when he left.


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## Yari (May 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *he became a professional and personal liability......:toilclaw: *



Sad, but MA itsn't for everbody, and you did right taking care of this.

/Yari


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## Sigung86 (May 23, 2002)

The Great Golden Dragon is right.  You must spend your time wisely.  Kenpo is a human art, but you have to, as an instructor, keep a constant weather eye on student barometers.  Sometimes you just have to cut your losses.

Neeexxxxt!!!!

Dan


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## satans.barber (May 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> * In addition to the fact that he is wearing a gi that has not been washed in months, it has salt crusted on it. *



That's disgusting! Hygiene is in our school rules I think, you can be thrown out for that as easily as for having too much aggression or whatever.

We've got a guy in our club at the moment who sounds like the guy you got rid of, so I know how happy all your students must be. This guy was in the forces (although years ago) so he thinks he's something special, although his kenpo is terrible.

Also, I'm in training ready for my black belt grading at the moment, and I'm being hampered somewhat by a very very sore hand, which I suspect may actually be fractured a bit. Guess who? Yes, exactly. We were doing a random attack/random defense line up, my random attack was a right cross, his defense was to grab my fingers inside his hand, squeeze them and then see hoe far round he could twist them for good measure.

I couldn't train for 2 weeks, and I'm still having to wear a horrible hand wrap thing like the Tae Bo lot insist in putting on, which has taken all the finesse out of one of my hands.

The morel is Sieg, in my eyes you managed to get rid of this guy before he did some real damage, it was a good call.

Ian.


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## tonbo (May 23, 2002)

I know it was a hard decision, and a tough thing to let one of your students go.  However, you also have to remember that your students are also walking advertisements of you and your school.  If you have a student who is hurting others, or displaying bad manners, or otherwise doing damage to the school, he is not just doing it in class.  Every time he answers the question "Where do you study?", your school and your personal reputation can be put into question.

Having students like that can really hurt your business.  If people don't like a bully student, and they know that he trains with you, it is not a giant leap for most people to equate the bully tendencies with you or your school, no matter how true that thought may be.  All it takes is the one, since we all know the math of how bad reputations and rumors spread (I tell someone, that person tells a couple of other people, each one of those tells another group, etc., etc.).  Pretty soon, you could have a really bad reputation as a teacher and your school could have the same bad rep---all without your even know what was going on.

You did the right thing, Seig, tough though it may be.  You want to have a reputation for being fair and respectable; to do that, you have to let go of the people who are not dedicated to the same ends.

Peace--


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## Michael Billings (May 23, 2002)

After the incident that happened to me, due to the potential liability,(did I mention the guy he knocked down could not hear out of his ear for 2 days?), I got a legal protection plan from a well known Legal Insurance plan.  I could not stop him from getting hurt, but I also had to look out for myself liability-wise.  It was not worth the worry/stress to wonder if a lawsuit was around the corner.

Better to nip it in the bud, than have the violence bloom ... or is that Boom.  Oh well, I learned a good couple of lessons here.

Also, hygene is important.  What do you do when someone can't afford a new Gi and washes it all the time, but it just does not clean up anymore?  I had that problem, discussed it with him.  Finally with his excellent attitude and training, I donated him a Gi, (he was supporting 4 kids and one was a newborn, so money was always extremely tight.)  I would do almost anything rather than dismiss someone for hygene.  It may come to that, but hopefully a little comment or two (privately), then positive confrontation if he/she does not take the hint, or some actual assistance regarding hygene habits may be needed.  Like, "yes you are old enough now to wear deoderant" or "you do have to learn to trim your toenails before I see you again" (to a 13 yo male.)  One student who did not have a dad needed help with hygene issues, too embaressed to ask his mom, with her permission I introduced him to the importance of a clean Gi, keeping nails short (he did not know how to cut them, just tore them off when the split ... yeah, I know what it says about the mom), and using deoderant.  

Ain't if fun running a school?

-Michael


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## Sandor (May 23, 2002)

A person who cannot follow directions has no business being in a karate school. Period. 

They pose a danger to your student base, your assistant instructors and themselves. If a person cannot abide by the house rules then as Dennis said 'Cut the cancer before it spreads'. 

A lot of instructors who own and operate professional schools (as opposed to private clubs) forget that the sign on the door says 'enter' on one side and 'exit' on the other. Something to think about.

Peace,
Sandor


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## meni (May 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *I had to do something this evening that all new school owners dread.  I have had a student that has been with me on and off for almost 2 years.  Tonight, I had to ask him to leave and to not return.  In addition to the fact that he is wearing a gi that has not been washed in months, it has salt crusted on it, I have had every one of my students request not to work with him.  He has managed to hurt every one of them.  Repeated warnings have not stopped him.  He says I have never said anything to him, I told him every class.  Me pasting him when he tried to hurt me was not a warning, he tried to get even.  Friday night was the final straw.  We were working on "applied kenpo".  The was working with a 15 year old and had him in a choke.  The 15 year old tried to tap out 3 times and the other student merely aplied more pressure instead of releasing.  I hate to have to do it, but he became a professional and personal liability......:toilclaw: *



Very well done,
 accountability is the key to a professional setting.

thank you 

Meni


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## C.E.Jackson (May 23, 2002)

I think all instructors worth anything has had to dismiss a student or two. Unfortunatly it comes with the turf. None of us likes to do this but sometimes it is for the better good of the majority of your students.


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## tshadowchaser (May 23, 2002)

A very hard decision was made in the best intrest of your other students and your slef. Good job.
I want to thank all who have spoken on this subject   because I am faceing a simular situation. Not the hygine but the poor sportsmanship and "need" of the student to prove he is better than anyone else( even black belts who have studied 6 or seven times longer than he). The student also keeps me informed as to how long he has been studying only problem there is !> I dont care  and @. he is off by about a year. Heck my school hasnt been opened as long as he claims he's been studying. Other problems also with the constant "I did not know" or " nobody ever told me"  Any way thanks for j\helping me make a decision that I had put off.
Seig I think you did the very correct thing  even if it was hard
Shadow:asian:


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## clapping_tiger (May 23, 2002)

I agree with everyone else on this.  Some people don't know the difference between intensity and aggression.  Its best to lose one bad student, than lose any good students.  But be careful, some people are in martial arts to help control their aggression.  It is up to you to make the call.


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## Seig (May 24, 2002)

I wish he had been there to learn to control aggression, then I maybe could have had an insight and something to work with.


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## Ronin (May 25, 2002)

Imagine what would have happened if you didnt kick him out


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## Goldendragon7 (May 25, 2002)

And realized that he really had no choice....... but it is nice to have several friends to lean on when you are forced to make hard decisions. 

:asian:


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## Klondike93 (May 25, 2002)

Care to share any experiences like this GD? I haven't ever seen a student tossed, but I've asked that a couple be let loose for their attitudes but it didn't happen.


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 26, 2002)

I like to think I run a pretty tight ship....... I don't tolerate any BS. or at least from my perspective..... lol.... I usually warn people before I get a little annoyed...... In sparring.... I expect the more experienced to take it easier on the lesser experienced.  And in some cases..... the lower belts have been better fighters than some of the higher ones.  Respect is PARAMOUNT always!!  You can be intense and not  touch anyone and have wonderful control...... If you don't listen then ...... in some cases     it      became          necessary  for  .         .....     .......... Smacky time....... but my students are better to relay those stories than I.

:asian:


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## GouRonin (May 26, 2002)

Having been on the other side of the equation I can tell you the view from there.

I have had to part ways from a school due to differences between the instructor/owner and myself. Was I out and out told to leave? No. It was _"heavily implied"_ that I should be training elsewhere.

At first I was mad. Who wouldn't be? But now, I am greatful. What this did was free me up to find a place that I could fit in.

I may not get along greatly with the owner of the old school now but I greatly respect his decision and what he did. I also appreciate what he did for me. At great personal cost to the working relationship we had he allowed me to be free and find what I needed.

I have said this before. When it comes to tax time it's not my name on the forms. I'm not the guy responsible for the show. So it's up to that person to make decisions based on the good of his school. But in the end it was a good decision for both of us, and I commend him for doing it. I would not be as happy as I am today if he had not.

Looking back I am greatful for the time I spent there and the lessons I learned. Both good and bad. After leaving I sent a financial gift and some support for a seminar he did as a way of saying thank you for the time I and he spent there together.

Now when people come to me and say they got booted out of a school or are thinking of leaving I say to them. Just go. Say thank you for what you learned and the knowledge gained. Leave a small gift. Be it money, or something else they can use or would like. Then move on. Do not hold a grudge or be vindictive. Life is far too short to be fixated on a past experience if you're not learning from it.

Often people balk at the gift part. I out and out tell them that this is something only fighting men *(Understand that I do not mean man here as in male gender. I mean it as a maturity stage)* would understand as to why to do it. If you can't grasp it then you're not there yet. Just do it and you'll understand later.

Seig, you may not understand it and he may not understand it but you may have done the best thing in the world for this guy. Hopefully he'll pick up on it and it will help in his growth & transition into being a warrior, hopefully you'll understand it too. Sometimes even the worst teacher will have nothing to teach but this. Sometimes even the worst student will learn nothing but this.


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## Ronin (May 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *I like to think I run a pretty tight ship....... I don't tolerate any BS. or at least from my perspective..... lol.... I usually warn people before I get a little annoyed...... In sparring.... I expect the more experienced to take it easier on the lesser experienced.  And in some cases..... the lower belts have been better fighters than some of the higher ones.  Respect is PARAMOUNT always!!  You can be intense and not  touch anyone and have wonderful control...... If you don't listen then ...... in some cases     it      became          necessary  for  .         .....     .......... Smacky time....... but my students are better to relay those stories than I.
> 
> :asian: *


   That reminds me Mr. C I'm still looking for my right eye and left testicle......


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## Goldendragon7 (May 26, 2002)

You have been very lucky in many ways to "get out" of some bad situations.  Always a silver lining!
:asian:


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