# Empty Hand of Modern Arnis



## Rich Parsons (Mar 20, 2005)

I was recently asked about Modern Arnis, and if there was any empty hand to this art.

This person wondered why that they had only seen stick work on their limited exposure. I replied that most of those who had attended the seminars of GM Remy Presas, had a first art, and that art was an empty hand art. There some who would concentrate on the stick work only, as they would make the comments that they had empty hand already.

Palusut has a nice thread on a drill for Trapping Hands.

I would like to add to that knowledge here. So, please post here, your commmetns and thoughts, and enough information is posted on a particular topic the Moderators fo this forum can split it off to an appropriately titled thread of its' own.

Thank you
 :asian:


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## Dan Anderson (Mar 21, 2005)

Aside from shameless plugging of products, I'd just add for the guy you were talking to, to translate the stick work into empty hand (the numbering system, the block-check-counter, etc.) and there is a wealth of empty hand actions one can go with.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## ppko (Mar 22, 2005)

Just to put it plain and simple if you can do the movements with a stick you can do it without a stick as well. I use many of the Arnis principle without the sticks all the time ie.... empty hand, and knife training.  There is only so many ways that the human body can move so every thing that you do has Modern Arnis in it or vice versa.


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## dearnis.com (Mar 22, 2005)

Some of Professor's best seminars never involved a stick or a knife.  People who haven't really tried Modern Arnis, by which I mean emptying their cups enough to immerse themselves for enough time, seem to be incapable of getting it.  Pretty much the same people who tell me my time in Sayoc is wasted because I might not have a blade.  Get past the training tools folks.


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## Cebu West (Mar 22, 2005)

I agree with Chad that Professor's empty hand seminars were great, unless of course you were Professor's demonstrator and your head spent a good bit of the time attached to the floor. One way or the other they were informative and memorable. 
These seminars truly showed the versatility of Modern Arnis and the Professor.

Sal


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## Cebu West (Mar 22, 2005)

I have just recently finished working on a project that adapts the Okinawan version of the  pocket stick to the empty hand techniques of Modern Arnis. I wasn't sure where this project would take me, however once I got started everything came very naturally and felt like I'd been doing them for years. I credit this to the ease by which Modern Arnis techniques interchange and flow from weapon to weapon and empty hand. If you keep your Modern Arnis base techniques and apply them to the stick, knife or empty hand you will soon see that 
"IT IS ALL THE SAME"   

Sal


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## Guro Harold (Mar 23, 2005)

Cebu West said:
			
		

> I have just recently finished working on a project that adapts the Okinawan version of the  pocket stick to the empty hand techniques of Modern Arnis. I wasn't sure where this project would take me, however once I got started everything came very naturally and felt like I'd been doing them for years. I credit this to the ease by which Modern Arnis techniques interchange and flow from weapon to weapon and empty hand. If you keep your Modern Arnis base techniques and apply them to the stick, knife or empty hand you will soon see that
> "IT IS ALL THE SAME"
> 
> Sal


Cool, Sal!!!

How about abanico corto-empty handed techniques from the old tape series with the kubaton or compact umbrella, very fun!!!


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## Mark Lynn (Apr 2, 2005)

Just for info

I loaned one of my students a tape I had bought several years back of a seminar of the Professor's where he covers the translation of the Sinawali drills to empty hand.  He told me that to him it was one of the best tapes of Remy's that he had seen (and he has them all   ).  Anyway the tape is sold by George Denson's Video Quest it is a two tape (it might be on DVD now) series.  It is a seminar shot in Raleigh NC.

George I believe has filmed some of Bram's tapes so it is a good product, it is of better quality than the symposium DVDs and tapes.  I have nothing to do with Video Quest other than that I bought the tapes and Bram's several years back.


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## Andrew Evans (Apr 2, 2005)

One can learn a lot about the empty hand of Modern Arnis from the Anyos.

To connect the arts, I recommend Datu Kelly Worden's Filipino Bridging Hands. I especially like the Sinawali drills bridging into empty hand application. See http://kellyworden.com/Products.html

Also, can someone please post a link to Palusut's thread on Trapping Hands.

Thanks,


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## Guro Harold (Apr 2, 2005)

Andrew Evans said:
			
		

> One can learn a lot about the empty hand of Modern Arnis from the Anyos.
> 
> To connect the arts, I recommend Datu Kelly Worden's Filipino Bridging Hands. I especially like the Sinawali drills bridging into empty hand application. See http://kellyworden.com/Products.html
> 
> ...



Hi Andrew,

Here is the link to the Tapi-Tapi #1 - #2 drill:  http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15354.

Best regards,

Harold


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 3, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I was recently asked about Modern Arnis, and if there was any empty hand to this art.


_Let me preface this by saying that unlike* MOST *people who practice Modern Arnis I started in the art where others *USUALLY *cross train into or practice an art that has Modern Arnis blended into it._

As a full time school owner, Im asked similar questions all the time. The most common is how your art / program different than Tae Kwon Do or Karate. My response is simple and direct. *We do everything they do and more.*

Lets put this to the test:
Kata: Karate  Yes, TKD  Yes, MA  Yes.
Weapon Kata: Karate  Yes, TKD  usually No, MA - Yes
Punching: Karate  Yes, TKD  Yes, MA - Yes
Kicking: Karate  Karate  Yes, TKD  of course, MA  Yes
Locks & Throws: Karate  usually not, TKD  No, MA  Yes
Weapon Defenses: Karate  Limited, TKD  Limited, MA Yes
Weapon Use: Karate  Limited, TKD  No, MA- Thats a silly question. Its like asking if the Kennedys are gun shy.

Seeing that *MOST* people cross train into our art they have usually already have developed there open hand skills. When I teach seminars at Karate and TKD schools I dont teach them what they already know. I try to show them new things and how to incorporate it into there own programs. This is why we have that image of being all weapon all the time. 

Remy taught the art two ways. 
The first was *the art within your art.*
The second which is the way I learned, as a *stand alone art.*

 :asian:


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## Andrew Evans (Apr 4, 2005)

Thanks Harold for the link!



			
				Datu Puti said:
			
		

> *We do everything they do and more.*


Great quote. From now on, I'll mention that but then I'll do what I usually do... I give them something that enhances the need for Modern Arnis training in self-defense situations. 

When someone is attacked, three things are likely to happen: 
1) The attacker is bigger than you (GM Remy Presas was average height but was able to take down much bigger opponents)
2) More than one attacker (weapons are great equalizers)
3) The attacker/s has a weapon (another no brainer)
Or worse, all of the above!! 

I want my students prepared for all of these situations. Sure, we don't go always around carrying our edged and impact weapons but that's where the awesome empty hand techniques of Modern Arnis come into play. By the way, did I mention that the skills you learned between impact weapon (stick), edged weapon (knife) and empty hand are transferable? That way, you don't have to learn three separate skills. Based on our eclectic methods, once you learn how to do it one way you can easily adapt to the other methods.



			
				Datu Puti said:
			
		

> _Let me preface this by saying that unlike* MOST *people who practice Modern Arnis I started in the art where others *USUALLY *cross train into or practice an art that has Modern Arnis blended into it._


No offense to Datu Puti. I respect his experience. However, I want to make sure that everyone knows that there is no such thing as PURE Modern Arnis. Classical Arnis yes but pure Modern Arnis no. GM Remy Presas was anything but one dimensional. If it wasn't for his studying other arts, Modern Arnis would not be the complete art that he developed. Also from studying GM Remy Presas's art throughout its development, one can see that the art was constantly developing. Just as the GM never stood in one place, neither did the art. 

Respectfully,
Andrew


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 4, 2005)

Andrew Evans said:
			
		

> No offense to Datu Puti. I respect his experience. However, I want to make sure that everyone knows that there is no such thing as PURE Modern Arnis. Classical Arnis yes but pure Modern Arnis no. GM Remy Presas was anything but one dimensional. If it wasn't for his studying other arts, Modern Arnis would not be the complete art that he developed. Also from studying GM Remy Presas's art throughout its development, one can see that the art was constantly developing. Just as the GM never stood in one place, neither did the art.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Andrew



No offense taken. I think *PURE* might be to strong a word. Let me say this. Modern Arnis is an eclectic system of martial arts, but it was still a system. If Remy put it into the system then it became Modern Arnis. I dont fool my students or myself in believing that there werent outside influences in the art. While Remy was alive he would constantly refine his blend of martial arts. I would never ad to it or change it for system integrity. Now when it came to my own personal expression of the martial arts, many influences could be seen. When it came time to teach or be tested in *Modern Arnis* I could stick (no pun intended) to the program as Remy taught to me. 

Maybe a seperate thread should be started to address the topic of* Purity of Modern Arnis?*

 :asian:


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## loki09789 (Apr 4, 2005)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> _Let me preface this by saying that unlike* MOST *people who practice Modern Arnis I started in the art where others *USUALLY *cross train into or practice an art that has Modern Arnis blended into it._
> 
> As a full time school owner, Im asked similar questions all the time. The most common is how your art / program different than Tae Kwon Do or Karate. My response is simple and direct. *We do everything they do and more.*
> 
> ...


I think your comparison of MA to TKD/Karate may be a bit narrow in scope.  I have studied TKD with folks that learned it from ROK Marines and it includes many flowing, locking/weapons elements that were pretty intricate and thorough.  So, I would say it depends on the TKD organization that you train with.  Around here, Master Chong's is a huge influence and I do know that they do weapons in a traditional sense but not necessarily a 'self defense' sense as in MA.

Karate - Depends on the system as to whether there is extensive lock/throw/weapons elements in the program.  Ryu Kyu Kempo Karate (at least as I was exposed to it) used Kata extensively as a 'transaltion' tool to teach locks and throws AND linked empty hand to weapon movements in a similar way that some FMA developed/hid it - through dances and ceremonial rites.  Shorinji is loaded with locks, throws and 'soft' movement fairly early on in training.  Rodney Mayfield has tied me in many a painful knot with his Shorinji.

Regardless of the above, I do think that MA has a solid link between empty hand and weapon.  The attraction for cross training IMO for people that are coming from other arts is the 'repackaging' of the same tools.  Take it out of the box that they have learned to put a certain skill into and see based on 'concept' instead of 'technique' and it opens a world of innovations for the user.

TKD/Karate tend to be more systemic/structured and has less time devoted to interpretive/adaptive training whereas MA and other FMA arts are built on a foundation of interpretation/innnovation and train fundamentals more like a boxing school would - fundamentals.

I always considered MA/FMA more 'tactical' arts than 'artistic' arts because of the focus on self defense and translation/application.  There is 'art' in it, but the emphasis is on what you get done more than 'how it was done' (in terms of specific techniques or the 'perfectness' of those techniques).


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## dearnis.com (Apr 4, 2005)

Paul- some good points about the versatility of the more "mainstream" arts; but I think the examples you cite are the exception as taught in contemporary America, which is of course the point of Tim's comparison.


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## mcjon77 (Apr 5, 2005)

I started playing with FMA for the weapon work, however I now study Modern Arnis primarily for the empty hands applications.  Don't get me wrong.  I really like the stick work.  And studying Bram's blade applications has been awesome.  However, the whole concept of flow, and the drills that develop and reinforce that concept, really took my empty hands work in a new direction (and to a new level).  In all honestly, if someone told me that all the stick work were simply drills to develop empty hands techniques, I would not be surprised.

 Jon


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## loki09789 (Apr 5, 2005)

dearnis.com said:
			
		

> Paul- some good points about the versatility of the more "mainstream" arts; but I think the examples you cite are the exception as taught in contemporary America, which is of course the point of Tim's comparison.


I disagree that my exposure is the exception.  I think that it is just a matter of training philosophy differences.

Trad or "Mainstream" arts focus more on technical perfection/form/art or systemic comprehension first and 'tactical' mind later.

FMA/Arnis/Tactical/Fighting arts (to incluce MMA, Thai/kick/western Boxing) are more goal and application driven.  Get in get the job done, form/art/technique serve the purpose of your goal but are not THE goal.

From a trad art approach the other group may look sloppy and lack control and discipline.

From a "Fighting/Tactical" art approach the other may look pretty but ineffective, lacking responsiveness and 'fightability' because of a preoccupation with 'form.'

There are elements of form focus in tactical arts and there are elements of tactical training in trad arts...

I respect the training as a whole.  MA is a good 'jack of all trades' art if you get the exposure to all the components - but that doesn't make it superior to other arts or 'more complete' per se.  In the end it comes down to the artist and the instruction more than the 'art' when the rubber meets the road anyway.

8 step praying mantis is a very solid system that is much more structured but similar to MA in many ways because it includes grappling, throws, strikes, kicks (not sure about weapons though)...all based on the same conceptual foundation.  The difference is that 8 step won't 'teach the concepts' specifically until you have gone through a good chunk of the curriculum - if not the whole thing.  I have worked with a few 8 step folks and they are BAD people to tangle with IMO because of what they bring to their training as much as how they train.  MA simply 'teaches the concepts' earlier and continues to emphasize them regularly.  The individual drills/skills/techniques may not be as precise as early but MArnisadors can get the job done too depending on what they bring to their training as well as how they were trained.  

Now a beginner to intermediate 8 step student may not see the connections between MA and 8 step but an older student will and you may get the 'we do that too' comments just like an MA student will say to another artist.

Different doors same place.  Commitment, consistency and conscious attention to training are going to make the biggest difference regardless of the art.


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## loki09789 (Apr 5, 2005)

mcjon77 said:
			
		

> In all honestly, if someone told me that all the stick work were simply drills to develop empty hands techniques, I would not be surprised.
> 
> Jon


That is a hot button topic for MArnisadors at times because, culturally MA was taught stick first and then empty hand second.  When you begin empty hand training you have developed a quicker 'read/react' speed because the intensity/stress/physical speed of a stick makes empty hand seem slower.  Plus you will have developed physically more power and strength because of the wt. of the stick.....but there is a problem when you try to do that is the US/Western Cultures at times.

Sticks first is a hard 'self defense' sell to these folks unless you teach empty hand earlier than you might in PI and focus on the concepts earlier...ala MA.

RP was good at that.

My systems approach is to teach the empty hand first and fairly early in the training translate that into weapon motions.  STill focused on the concepts and still focused on 'self defense' but a better curriculum for 'colateral liability issues' and 'use of force/deadly force' issues if you ever go under the microscope because you have been forced to defend yourself for some reason.

Given the culture in the US (that is were I live), I am more likely to be weaponless than I am weaponed.  Learning to use my body first and then incorporating a tool soon after allows my less agriculturally applied/technogically advanced (read "lazy because of convenience") life styled body to get a breaking in period before I start swinging a weapon around.

It is far more common that PI students of FMA, at least in the past, would have been swinging machete/bolos, doing manual labor, walking from place to place more that we do in the states.....therefore more 'conditioned' to jump into a weapon first program - as well as culturally much more acceptable than here.  Knives/sticks and such still have a 'thug weapon' stigma that you have to deal with if you want to keep the doors open on a school.  That is also why MA tends to draw from prior trained students....they are not intimidated or confused by weapon training the way many beginners may be.


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## Yeti (Apr 27, 2006)

dearnis.com said:
			
		

> Pretty much the same people who tell me my time in Sayoc is wasted because I might not have a blade. Get past the training tools folks.


 
Hey, they must be the same folks who tell me that Taekwondo doesn't work for self defense!  Laughable really, but - it's all perception. If you think something isn't, then it isn't. End of story.  Who was it that said, "the man who thinks he can and the man who thinks he can't are both right"?....Seems to apply pretty universally to the martial arts.

On another note, I am making the plunge into the world of MA. I"m hoping to take my first class next week and I really can't wait. I can't believe I didn't discover this art years ago!


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