# Different Style(s) of Tai Chi Chuan



## CrushingFist

Me and my cousin are researching about Taijiquan. We're both looking forward to practice Taijiquan as soon as we find out all the answers to our questions. I' always been into the Arts, he got interested after he started his Philosophy stuff, he's actually a Philosophy student (college yes) so thats where he gets his interest probably. Anyhow, I've heard of a couple . Yang, Chen, Wu, Sun, don't know of any else, So i was just looking to see where can we find a list of the different styles, their difference, or brief description. We're both in New York City so this is very commercial and I don't like all these Big Profile, Commercial schools. number 1 because I wouldn't be able to afford it and thats basically it don't have to mention more. Well I hope I don't get anyone mad , I just come here to learn and learn and learn some more. 

Thanks in advance, and hope to get a lot of positive posts. 
P.S. I've been away for a while, but I'm back for good. 

With all due respect!
RobNyc


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## Dronak

I think you've hit most of the major styles there.  The other one I've heard of a bunch is a different Wu style, also called Hao style after a different famous practicioner, probably to help avoid confusion with the other Wu style.  I could be wrong, but I think Yang is the most popular, with Chen second, and I'm not sure about the others.  I believe that at least some of the standardized forms (I'm thining 24 posture, 48 posture, and 42 posture competition) are based in Yang style even though they incorporate aspects of other styles.  I think you can also find various particular forms, like the Cheng Man Ching form, which I'm not sure count as their own style.

As for differences, I'd probably have to check my books.  What I can think of offhand relates to Yang and Chen.  Yang style is typically done very slowly and smoothly.  Chen style includes fast, explosive movements, which can make the martial aspects of moves more obvious than in Yang style.  Assuming what I've read is right, or at least the consensus, Chen style was the first form of tai chi, and Yang style developed out of that.  IIRC, most other styles are some derivation/modification of Yang style.

I don't think I could help you on the school topic.  I think that today, tai chi today is taught primarily for exercised and health benefits, so it may be hard to find a school that will include and teach the martial aspects.  One thing you could consider is checking out local colleges and universities to see if they have martial art clubs or classes that would teach you tai chi.

I hope this of some help to you.  Good luck with the research and beginning your practice of tai chi.


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## Xue Sheng

Historic Founder Chang San-Feng (Taoist)

Chen, Yang, Zhao Bao, Yang, Wu, Wu/Hao, Sun and there is a Li style as well. Not to mention several others I cannot remember the names of or I don&#8217;t know the names of. There can be big differences as well as similarities between the family forms

Chen, Yang, Wu, Wu/Hao, Sun are the 5 families recognized by the Chinese government as Tai Chi Families. I recently heard that they may have just recognized Zhao Bao as well. 

Chen family came first (if you believe the Chen family history, but it was before the other family styles) Chen has and still teaches both Old frame and new frame and has lower stances than Yang style. I have to admit I like Chen; it still has obvious applications, Qin Na and fajing in the forms. Current family head is Chen Zhenglei. He is very good and very skilled.

Yang came from Chen
The most popular style today is Yang from the Yang Cheng Fu line. However there is another line, not as widely practiced that comes from Yang Chengfu's older brother Yang Shouhou (also spelled Yang Shao-hou) and uncle Yang Binhou (also spelled Yang Pan-hou). Yang Chengfu changed the form by removing the much fajing and Qin Na. However he did create a fast form (Yes there are fast forms in Tai Chi)
Current head of family style is Master Yang Zhen Duo and I believe the next in line is his grandson Master Yang Jun.

Zhao Bao came from Chen and is very cool, very low, very powerful

Wu Came from Yang, Pre Yang Cheng Fu

Wu/Hao also came from Yang, also pre Yang Chengfu

Sun Came from Wu/Hao. But the founder of Sun was considered a master of Xingyi and Bagua. There is a very good Xingyi book by the Sun founder Sun Lu Tang. Just as a side note Sun Lu Tang daughter and Sun style family head just died last year.

Zhao Bao is very rare and hard to find it may or may not be a combination of Chen and some other martial art from Zhao village. But it historically comes from a Chen family member.

Li style I have never seen, but it is also a combination of Tai Chi and other martial arts like Sun style. 

Dong Style is from Tung Ying Chieh, a student of Yang Chengfu. However I do not think Sifu Tung ever called what he taught Dong style. I believe that came from either his son or grandson. Tung Ying Chieh added a second fast form and possibly a second straight sword and broad sword (da dow) form as well. Sifu Tung allegedly studied Wu/Hao prior to studying with Yang Chengfu and there are even some references that he may have studied with Yang Shouhou prior to studying with Yang Chengfu

Be very careful about Yang style classes or any Tai Chi classes for that matter. Many are not the full family forms. If the Yang class is in Yang 24 and 48 it is not traditional Yang. These are government competition forms. Most unfortunately all the 5 families have government competition forms. These forms are not generally taught be the families. Also depending on what you are after with Tai Chi, health and fitness, martial arts or both. It may be difficult to find an actual Martial Tai Chi School. Most are now for relaxation and health. However Zhao Bao I doubt has gone that root yet. Yang certainly has, Chen may be and I am not sure about Wu, Wu/Hao or Sun. By the way traditional Sun is also rare.

Also lineage is a good thing but not the end all be all of a good teacher. I know of bad teachers with good lineages and good teachers with less direct lineages. But in general lineage can be a good thing.


Links of interest
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/styles.html

List of Tai Chi Chuan forms 
http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-tai-chi-chuan-forms?method=22

Chen style
http://www.answers.com/Chen style Tai Chi Chuan

Yang Style
http://www.answers.com/Yang style Tai Chi Chuan

http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/

Wu/Hao Style
http://www.answers.com/Wu%2FHao%20style%20T'ai%20Chi%20Ch'uan

Wu Style
http://www.answers.com/Wu%20style%20T'ai%20Chi%20Ch'uan

http://www.wustyle.com/

Sun Style
http://www.answers.com/Sun%20style%20T'ai%20Chi%20Ch'uan

Tchoung Style (this is a new one on me)
http://www.answers.com/Tchoung style Tai Chi Chuan

Dong Style
http://www.dongtaichi.com/

Tai Chi History
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/history.html


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## Xue Sheng

And here is another one

Sun family
International Sun Tai Chi Association
http://www.suntaichi.com/news.html


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## Gaoguy

Li style comes from Yang. There was an article about it in JAMA a couple of months ago. Zhao Bao isn't that rare, there are a couple of practitioners over at Empty Flower that can more info.


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## CrushingFist

Thanks so much everyone . I'm going to be reading those links, by the way I've heard of "Yangjia Michuan"  (Hidden Tradition/Family) What you guys know about this?


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## Xue Sheng

Gaoguy said:
			
		

> Li style comes from Yang. There was an article about it in JAMA a couple of months ago. Zhao Bao isn't that rare, there are a couple of practitioners over at Empty Flower that can more info.


 
Yes Li style does come from Yang, with additions, similar to Sun coming from Wu/Hao.

My justification for calling Zhao Bao rare: 

Yes Zhao Bao is on Empty Flower but as compared to Yang and Chen it is rare as is Sun. And the Zhao Bao people on EF tend to be from the West Coast and geographically to me it is rare being on the East Coast and the question referenced NYC. 

Also there is a person that lives very near to me that teaches Zhao Bao, but he does not know Zhao Bao, he knows 2 Zhao Bao forms. A true Zhao Bao teacher is fairly rare on the right as apposed to the left coast. And from what I read on EF it is not all that common on the left coast either.


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## Xue Sheng

LI style Tai Chi Chuan (Taijiquan)
http://www.plumpub.com/info/knotebook/boxTClistyle.htm


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## Xue Sheng

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> I've heard of "Yangjia Michuan" (Hidden Tradition/Family) What you guys know about this?


 
I have never seen or heard of it before, so I am not qualified to make a judgment but this is what I found.

As to Yang secret forms, I would not doubt one existed but I would research it first. 

I also once read that the Yang Chengfu once showed one of his students a secret form that was very similar to Chen Cannon fist; I find this claim highly suspect.
 
Yangjia Michuan
http://aymta.org/
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000039.html


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## Gaoguy

Scott Rodell of www.grtc.org is a long time student of Wang. He also runs the excellant swordforums.com


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## Dronak

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Most unfortunately all the 5 families have government competition forms. These forms are not generally taught be the families.



All five have competition forms?  I have a book called Competition Routines for Four Styles Taijiquan which, obviously from the title, contains routines for only four of the five family styles.  It covers Yang, Chen, Wu from Wu Jianquan (I don't remember which Wu this is), and Sun.  The second Wu style isn't included in the book.  I wouldn't be surprised if it has a competition form since it's a recognized family style.  It does make me wonder why it wasn't included in this book of competition forms though.


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## Xue Sheng

Dronak said:
			
		

> All five have competition forms? I have a book called Competition Routines for Four Styles Taijiquan which, obviously from the title, contains routines for only four of the five family styles. It covers Yang, Chen, Wu from Wu Jianquan (I don't remember which Wu this is), and Sun. The second Wu style isn't included in the book. I wouldn't be surprised if it has a competition form since it's a recognized family style. It does make me wonder why it wasn't included in this book of competition forms though.


 
You are very likely correct, I am very likely in error, I got typing and my fingers got stupid.

Chen, Yang, Wu, Sun all have competition forms that are not generally taught by the families. I am not sure if Wu/Hao has a competition form, I will have to check.

Thanks for keeping me honest


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## Xue Sheng

One more and then I will try to restrain myself

Chen Family
Chen Zhenglei Website
http://www.cstjq.com


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## CrushingFist

Thanks so much wow! 
I'm enjoying all this reading! 
Will get back when I'm done . Keep posting folks thanks for keeping it positive!


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## CrushingFist

Few good teachers of Baguazhang are available in the United States, and many do not advertise. Many are conservative and in line with Confucian didactic tradition will only reveal internal practices to dedicated students. Known forms (routines) of Bagua Zhang include Fixed Form Eight Palms (&#23450;&#24335;&#20843;&#25484, and the Old Eight Palms (&#32769;&#20843;&#25484 form, as well as many others

Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Yiquan are too damn interesting


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## Xue Sheng

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Few good teachers of Baguazhang are available in the United States, and many do not advertise. Many are conservative and in line with Confucian didactic tradition will only reveal internal practices to dedicated students. Known forms (routines) of Bagua Zhang include Fixed Form Eight Palms (&#23450;&#24335;&#20843;&#25484, and the Old Eight Palms (&#32769;&#20843;&#25484 form, as well as many others
> 
> Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Yiquan are too damn interesting


 
Since my experience tends to be with Chinese Martial arts teacher I can't speak for any other cultural view, and probably little for the Chinese view, but most of the Chinese martial artists that are very good, don't tell anybody. This of course makes them hard to find.

I meant a very good Tai Chi person from Taiwan entirely by accident, once and only once and I have never seen him again, he lives in my area and no one, not even in the Chinese community knows who or where he is. And I know someone else from Northern China that I recently found out, much to my surprise had been training in and is very good at police/military type San Da (San Shou) for over 25 years.

That is just the way it is when you train Chinese Martial Arts


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## CrushingFist

You are right. And those are the best ones actually.


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## CrushingFist

I'm still researching taking my time with the different styles of Taiji, diff styles of Xingyi and Bagua. I probably want to learn Xingyi first, then Bagua then Taiji but who knows. 

So i been reading more of the Yangjia Michuan since a long time online friend I use to have told me about it , He had studied other arts I was interested a few months ago (Bujinkan, and others) . 

Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan (Yang Family Hidden Tradition T'ai Chi Ch'uan) . 
"This vigorous and complete martial arts system, which includes basic exercises, the 13 postures (an introductory form), a one hour long form (127 postures), push hands, push hand exercises, and numerous weapons forms, as well as a deep foundation in neigong breathing practice, is taught world wide" 

Who can tell me more about it ?


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## Xue Sheng

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> I'm still researching taking my time with the different styles of Taiji, diff styles of Xingyi and Bagua. I probably want to learn Xingyi first, then Bagua then Taiji but who knows.
> 
> So i been reading more of the Yangjia Michuan since a long time online friend I use to have told me about it , He had studied other arts I was interested a few months ago (Bujinkan, and others) .
> 
> Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan (Yang Family Hidden Tradition T'ai Chi Ch'uan) .
> "This vigorous and complete martial arts system, which includes basic exercises, the 13 postures (an introductory form), a one hour long form (127 postures), push hands, push hand exercises, and numerous weapons forms, as well as a deep foundation in neigong breathing practice, is taught world wide"
> 
> Who can tell me more about it ?


 
The old Chinese saying is learn Xingyi first then Bagua then Tai Chi. But that is by no means a guide to follow, do what you like first and you may decide that that is enough. There are a lot of martial artists that are very good and only do 1 style. But there are also a lot of Bagua people that know Xingyi and vice versa.


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## CrushingFist

True. Well whatever floats the boat right 
I'm sailing lets see


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## Xue Sheng

There is another internal style that I tend to over look because I know little about it beyond that it is a combination of Xingyi, Bagua and Tai Chi Chuan.

I am going to make it a post to try and find out more about it.

Mandarin  *Liu He Ba Fa
*Cantonese - Lok Hop Ba Fa
http://www.answers.com/Liu%20He%20Ba%20Fa


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## CrushingFist

Damn that sounds yummy


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## CrushingFist

Nothing in my area about that style.
Today I was reading about the guy that told me long time ago maybe 1-2yrs ago about Yangjia Michuan I found his site , I didn't even know he was a Taiji Sifu, 

http://www.elementaltaichi.com/ymt.cfm
 Sifu Napier .. I like this section 
http://www.elementaltaichi.com/background.cfm
  The Articles are great man. I am no one to say but I recommend you and everyone reading those articles and this one 
http://www.aymta.org/home/journal/zqlpt1.html

It made my day. Sifu Napier sounds like a real true teacher. 

Quoted from his article " 





> By the early 20th century the Yang taiji masters were realizing that taiji offered important health benefits as well as martial arts excellence. Taijiquan, which literally means Grand Ultimate Fist, may be the only martial art today that one can practice for a lifetime and become stronger and healthier, rather than beaten up and broken down. Today it is practiced by more people for health reasons than for martial arts practice, but properly taught, it remains a martial art. The best health gains come from practicing it as a martial art, even if you have no martial intentions.


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## CrushingFist

Going on Monday to visit Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan 
Still reading around about the difference with Sun style, Wu, Yang, Chen Taijiquan, and after that I'll do the same about Bagua and then XIngyi, then read some Yiquan, then start School search again


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## Xue Sheng

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Going on Monday to visit Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan
> Still reading around about the difference with Sun style, Wu, Yang, Chen Taijiquan, and after that I'll do the same about Bagua and then XIngyi, then read some Yiquan, then start School search again


 
Good Luck

I am interested to hear what you thought about it.


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## CrushingFist

Well just came from Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan class 
it was __________ Great ! 
Since I never been to any taichichuan schools before this is my first, it was very good , I was the youngest one . 

There were 3 teachers there, both students of the main teacher. 
They treated me well, respect. 
We started off with 30 minutes of stretching and warm up exercises I haven't done before. Then we went onto the next room bigger, with Air flow, and more people came not a big group just enough to focus and we started doing Section 3, they asked me if I found it hard to go to the side wit 3 beginners to learn Section 1, I stood with the advanced students practicing Section 3, It was long. But I was concentrating it was nice and I didn't sweat as much as I would when I was in kung-fu or be tired

I actually came a lil hungry and I got less hungrier, and got more energy, time went by without me noticing it. A big difference is this yangjia michuan is not like the other yang styles people say that just stay on 1 level , here we were rising, sinking, etc . 

By the way, here I have a lil paper I got before I started doing section 3

List of the names of the form movements. maybe it'll be helpful for you guys. 

1. Get Ready
2. Begin
3. (R/L) Draw Across (Cai)
4. (L) Push (An)
5. (L) Single Arm Sweep
6. Jab
7. (R/L) Turn, Hold Off (Peng); Grasp the Sparrow's Tail; Seal it Closed
8. (R) Step Forward; Draw Downward (Cai)
9. (L) Single Whip
10. (R/L) Draw Downward (Cai), Elbow (Zhou), Shoulder (Kao)
11. (R) Step Forward, Thrust the Palm to the Heart
12. (L) Step Back, the White Crane Spreads its Wings
13. (L) Brush the Knee, Twist Step
14. Wield the Pipa
15. (R/L) Turn, Draw Downward (Cai); Brush the Knee, Twist Step; Wield The Pipa
16. (R/L) Turn, Draw Downward (Cai); Step Forward, Pull Up, Block, Punch; Seal it Closed
17. Cross the Hands
18. Carry the Tiger Back to the Mountain

Also, towards the end we were practicing Push Hands, I did also.


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## Xue Sheng

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> here we were rising, sinking, etc .



Actually traditional Yang does rise and sink, but that is neither here nor there as long as you felt comfortable in the class and it is giving you what you want that is great.



			
				CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Also, towards the end we were practicing Push Hands, I did also.


 
I have never heard of a Tai Chi class that starts push hands in the first class before, or before the first form is finished. What did you think of the push hands and what what the purpose of the push hands they had you doing, martial, centering, finding your opponents center, Qi Gong, etc,? (just curious)

How many sections are there? 
And do all sections have 18 forms?

Thanks for the list of forms, they all sound very familiar to me.


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## Dronak

That list looks somewhat different from what I'm familiar with in the Yang style I learned, but I recognize most of the postures.  It looks like that covers one complete section of the form, most likely the first.  I suspect that there are three major sections, but that's assuming the form CrushingFist is learning is structured similarly to what I'm familiar with (learned myself and read about).  Doing push hands that soon does seem early, but perhaps with one section down, the teacher figured the class could do some basics.  *shrug*


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## CrushingFist

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Actually traditional Yang does rise and sink, but that is neither here nor there as long as you felt comfortable in the class and it is giving you what you want that is great.
> 
> 
> 
> I have never heard of a Tai Chi class that starts push hands in the first class before, or before the first form is finished. What did you think of the push hands and what what the purpose of the push hands they had you doing, martial, centering, finding your opponents center, Qi Gong, etc,? (just curious)
> 
> How many sections are there?
> And do all sections have 18 forms?
> 
> Thanks for the list of forms, they all sound very familiar to me.


 
Push Hands was at the end, After we finished the form


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## Xue Sheng

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Push Hands was at the end, After we finished the form


 
But what did you think about push hands?


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## CrushingFist

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> But what did you think about push hands?


 
Well I never done it before, so what can I think?


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## CrushingFist

GOod News!

The Yangjia Michuan guy is going to run sunday classes at the park, though there'll be sundays he wont be around. This sounds good. Sunday mornings having a feeling with nature


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## Myrmidon

You may want to visit Master Chen Zhonghua's website for good martial taijiquan. He has a couple of disciples teaching in the NY area.

www.chenzhonghua.com


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## CrushingFist

Well, I've came to conclusions. 

Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan
Yin Cheng Gong Fu
Wu Tang Physical Assoc.
Shaolin Temple KF 


thats what I'll be going for


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## Xue Sheng

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Well, I've came to conclusions.
> 
> Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan
> Yin Cheng Gong Fu
> Wu Tang Physical Assoc.
> Shaolin Temple KF
> 
> 
> thats what I'll be going for


 
Great, keep us posted.


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## CrushingFist

My cousin visited the USA SHaolin Temple. ANd it was probably the most overpriced school I ever heard of. It's $120 for KF, but ChiKung, TaiChi are not included, so if you want ChiKung + TaiChi I don't know how much extra it would be. So thats definately out the list and I don't think I would be able to handle such a commercial place anyways. 

He's thought about certain things too, because mainly he wants to loose-weight but learn the arts too, and since the Temple teaches Chan'Buddhism and he's a Philosopher also taking Zen Buddhism classes. But he's been wanting to go to China for the past 7months to Hubei to the Wudang Temple because thats what he wants. 

I've been researching on wudang lately and saw some videos on youtube and it's the most amazing thing I ever seen in my life. I seen some Wudang Bagua, Wudang TaiChiChuan.. can't recall if I saw any Wudang Xingyi. But anyways I started a topic on Wudang in America and look forward to hear you guys mature opinion and answers on it. 

I greatly appreciate it.


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## CrushingFist

*The** content of Wudang wushu is extremely abundant. The following will introduce some of the main points of the system. Wudang Taijiquan is an outstanding style from the Wudang Sect. The style consists of eight routes with 108 postures. The movements are slow, even, and soft using spiralling and circular energy to spread the internal energy throughout the body. This style has incorporated the circulation of internal energy found in Taiji, the issuing of power found in Xingyi, and the body methods of Bagua into one body. Consequently, Wudang Taijiquan is an extremely functional martial art. *

*That's basically what I found . *


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## 7starmantis

Thats very colorful.


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## CrushingFist

Sorry after I refreshed the website it gave it to me like that unfortunately I thought it would of just been on my computer =X


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## Xue Sheng

Wudangquan
http://www.answers.com/topic/wudangquan

I have never seen Wudang done but if the school is teaching the real deal from my understanding Wudang is very good....

And apparently very colorful too.


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## Nebuchadnezzar

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> My cousin visited the USA SHaolin Temple. ANd it was probably the most overpriced school I ever heard of. It's $120 for KF, but ChiKung, TaiChi are not included, so if you want ChiKung + TaiChi I don't know how much extra it would be. So thats definately out the list and I don't think I would be able to handle such a commercial place anyways. .....


 
Check this thread regarding the "Shaolin Temple" http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=16558


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## CrushingFist

Nebuchadnezzar said:
			
		

> Check this thread regarding the "Shaolin Temple" http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=16558


 
THanks so much great info to know now 

I don't know what I had told my cousin but I started telling him a lot of stuff about we can more than that, better attention etc for half the price and stuff
So he made his mind about not even going to visit the school, now after reading that thread in budoseek seems true and makes obvious sense what they're saying there


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## CrushingFist

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Wudangquan
> http://www.answers.com/topic/wudangquan
> 
> I have never seen Wudang done but if the school is teaching the real deal from my understanding Wudang is very good....
> 
> And apparently very colorful too.


 
There's 1 in Colorado though, and he was in New York 
I hope he comes back or something. Or maybe I can try in a Wudang style

btw here's some wudang vids. http://youtube.com/results?search=Wudang&search_type=search_videos check them all if u can


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## Xue Sheng

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> There's 1 in Colorado though, and he was in New York
> I hope he comes back or something. Or maybe I can try in a Wudang style
> 
> btw here's some wudang vids. http://youtube.com/results?search=Wudang&search_type=search_videos check them all if u can


 
Wudang is Taoist and just a word of advice, Wudang Tai Chi and Taoist Tai Chi are not necessarily the same thing. There are a few Taoist Tai Chi schools around that are well for lack of a better word fake. 

I do no someone that went to Wudang Mountain in China and watched a demo or 2 put on by the priests and he was very impressed.

I believe there may be one in Florida too, but this may be the same one you are talking about that is now in Colorado.


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## CrushingFist

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Wudang is Taoist and just a word of advice, Wudang Tai Chi and Taoist Tai Chi are not necessarily the same thing. There are a few Taoist Tai Chi schools around that are well for lack of a better word fake.
> 
> I do no someone that went to Wudang Mountain in China and watched a demo or 2 put on by the priests and he was very impressed.
> 
> I believe there may be one in Florida too, but this may be the same one you are talking about that is now in Colorado.


 I think 1 of his students of the guy thats in Colorado is the one down in Florida. 

Yea I just finish reading that Shaolin stuff and its true. SOmething just happened now. 



> Diaz:I got your letter. please call my phone
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 510)451-1872 I well give you some information.
> 
> qiangya liang <sifuliang@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Note: forwarded message attached.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 12:27:37 -0400
> From: "ROBINSON DIAZ" <rdiaz19@xxx.net>
> Subject: Hi
> To: <sifuliang@yahoo.com>
> 
> 
> Hi Sifu Liang
> 
> I am very interested in your Fu style Bagua, Taiji and Liang-Yi . But unfortunately I don't live in CA. I was hoping to learn more from you and hear some recommendation. Is there Wudang in America? Do you have any contacts of wudang in new york? How about all these schools teaching Bagua, Xingiyi and Tai Chi Chuan that doesnt mean they are part of wudang right? If so what is really wudang and what styles can i look for to learn wudang. Also since I see your website being Wudang Boxing this means you teach Wudang styles?
> 
> Thank You so much look forward from hearing from you
> Best Regards,
> Robinson Diaz


 
I just finish calling receiving a replied message from Qiangya Liang or Sifu Liang who i emailed. I called him and yes we couldnt communicate well at all its ok I understand why, but I asked him if he knew anyone in New York, and he said so you want to train . what is your teacher . I dont have one i replied. ahhh .. ok.. $50 to train with me for one hour. then he askes is too much money ? I replie I dont know I was just trying to get information as you said you would give me, but I'll call you back. Take Care 

So I don't know if it's me or I'm getting the feeling with all due respect all teachers out there and here. That it seems $$$ in the first thing. I don't know but I feel like people are just teaching to make a living out of it, but I'm no one to judge so this is just my personal thoughts please help me here.


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## CrushingFist

Something I found on MartialArtsNy.com on Yangjia Michuan just wanted to added it in . 





> "Fundamental characteristics of the Hidden Tradition (Michuan) include clear martial applications throughout the form, "push hands" exercises that help to develop strength and flexibility, and the emphasis upon Neigong, the Taoist art of breathing. These important elements are coordinated with form study from the first day of practice."


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## Xue Sheng

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> So I don't know if it's me or I'm getting the feeling with all due respect all teachers out there and here. That it seems $$$ in the first thing. I don't know but I feel like people are just teaching to make a living out of it, but I'm no one to judge so this is just my personal thoughts please help me here.


 
Most unfortunately this is not far from true. My Tai Chi Sifu had no interest in money in the first 9 years of training with him. But the last 3, as he approaches retirement from his full time job he changed. He stopped teaching depth, form corrections and martial applications in order to gain more students. Sadly he did gain more students but lost all of his advanced students.

My first Sifu was strictly a forms guy from China (Wushu) but he was a stickler for correct form 12 years ago. In a recent visit to his school I saw a lot of students, but very very sloppy form. 

There are Sifus out there that are truly looking to teach the art and some are understandable interested in money, they have to live too, and some are not. 

I recently went to a workshop with William CC Chen and I was very impressed with what he was teaching. It was Cheng Manching Tai Chi but he was teaching push hands and martial application. And he was relating those applications and training to Sanahou matches. 

I believe his school is in NYC; you might want to check him out. His son also teaches there and his son trains Tai Chi with his father and is a very successful international Sanshou competitor as is his daughter.


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## CrushingFist

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Most unfortunately this is not far from true. My Tai Chi Sifu had no interest in money in the first 9 years of training with him. But the last 3, as he approaches retirement from his full time job he changed. He stopped teaching depth, form corrections and martial applications in order to gain more students. Sadly he did gain more students but lost all of his advanced students.
> 
> My first Sifu was strictly a forms guy from China (Wushu) but he was a stickler for correct form 12 years ago. In a recent visit to his school I saw a lot of students, but very very sloppy form.
> 
> There are Sifus out there that are truly looking to teach the art and some are understandable interested in money, they have to live too, and some are not.
> 
> I recently went to a workshop with William CC Chen and I was very impressed with what he was teaching. It was Cheng Manching Tai Chi but he was teaching push hands and martial application. And he was relating those applications and training to Sanahou matches.
> 
> I believe his school is in NYC; you might want to check him out. His son also teaches there and his son trains Tai Chi with his father and is a very successful international Sanshou competitor as is his daughter.


 
True.

But if I do Tai Chi I think I'll go for the Yangjia Michuan. I felt comfortable there, everyone there is just kind and everyone just doing their stuff. And from day 1 we did push hands. Everyone there has their own job so this is not a income for them. Infact, they teach at the YMCA so basically the Y pays the teacher. And I've heard of this guy 3-4yrs ago I should of went there long time ago I would of been very different. The class is rather not larger than 20 ppl when I was there maybe 13 ppl I think and the space is huge. The Y offers discounts to students and your able to do anything within the Y for about $55 a month (Gym, Tai Chi, etc) . I think that price is unbeatable. But you know I'm still researching certain things


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## CrushingFist

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Something I found on MartialArtsNy.com on Yangjia Michuan just wanted to added it in .


 
This vigorous and complete martial arts system, which includes basic exercises, the 13 postures (an introductory form), a one hour long form (127 postures), push hands, push hand exercises, and numerous weapons forms, as well as a deep foundation in neigong breathing practice, is taught world wide.


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## CrushingFist

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> This vigorous and complete martial arts system, which includes basic exercises, the 13 postures (an introductory form), a one hour long form (127 postures), push hands, push hand exercises, and numerous weapons forms, as well as a deep foundation in neigong breathing practice, is taught world wide.


 
Here's more for those of you who don't know of Yangjia Michuan or never heard of it. 

*Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan
(Yang Family Hidden Tradition Taiji or T'ai Chi)
from Yang Luchan to Wang Yen-nien *The American Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan Association (AYMTA) was founded in the early 1990's in California by Akai Jong, Julia Fisher-Fairchild and Wang Yen-nien. It is a non-profit organization with the purpose of perpetuating Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan (YMT) as taught by Wang Yen-nien, fourth generation master.

Taijiquan (or, in Wade Giles romanization, T'ai-Chi Ch'uan), has its roots in traditions that go back thousands of years. One version of its beginning is that Zhang Sanfeng, a Taoist monk, was watching a crane and a snake battle and was struck by the way that they used deception and body movements to evade the attacks of each other. Finally exhausted from the even contest the two creatures left. Sanfeng, though, was left with thoughts that led to development of the early basics of taijiquan .



Full article:
AYMTA


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## CrushingFist

So there are Yang, Chen, Wu, Sun. 

What is Yang known for? Chen ? Wu and Sun ? 
Since these are the 5 major and most likely to be found in my area. 

I just found out there are 2 types of Wu's. 

Other than that I'm lost


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## CrushingFist

Quoted from http://www.answers.com/topic/wu-style-t-ai-chi-ch-uan



> The Wu style's distinctive hand form, pushing hands and weapons trainings emphasise parallel footwork and horse stance training with the feet relatively closer together than the modern Yang or Ch'en styles, small circle hand techniques (although large circle techniques are trained as well) and differs from the other T'ai Chi family styles martially with Wu style's initial focus on grappling, throws, wrestling and other groundfighting technique; tumbling, jumping, footsweeps, pressure point leverage and joint locks and breaks, which are trained in addition to more conventional T'ai Chi sparring and fencing at advanced levels. Although historically derived from the Yang style, the Wu style has a unique appearance to observers and seems to share some features with Sun style, due to the long collaboration between Wu Chien-ch'&#252;an and Sun Lu-t'ang. Another significant feature of Wu style training is its routinely placing the body's weight 100% on the _yang_ or full leg, 0% on the _yin_ or empty leg in forms and pushing hands, and maintaining a straight line of the spine from the top of the head to the heel of the rear foot when it is at an angle to the ground; an "inclined plane" alignment intended to extend the practitioner's reach. Other styles of T'ai Chi (with a few notable exceptions) train this leaning occasionally in their forms and pushing hands, but not as systematically as the Wu style does.


 
This is an example of what I'm looking to find out about other TJ styles. And then I'll move into Xingyi and Bagua 

But also what about the difference with Wu/hao and Wu style? then


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## Xue Sheng

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Historic Founder Chang San-Feng (Taoist)
> 
> Chen, Yang, Zhao Bao, Yang, Wu, Wu/Hao, Sun and there is a Li style as well. Not to mention several others I cannot remember the names of or I dont know the names of. There can be big differences as well as similarities between the family forms
> 
> Chen, Yang, Wu, Wu/Hao, Sun are the 5 families recognized by the Chinese government as Tai Chi Families. I recently heard that they may have just recognized Zhao Bao as well.
> 
> Chen family came first (if you believe the Chen family history, but it was before the other family styles) Chen has and still teaches both Old frame and new frame and has lower stances than Yang style. I have to admit I like Chen; it still has obvious applications, Qin Na and fajing in the forms. Current family head is Chen Zhenglei. He is very good and very skilled.
> 
> Yang came from Chen
> The most popular style today is Yang from the Yang Cheng Fu line. However there is another line, not as widely practiced that comes from Yang Chengfu's older brother Yang Shouhou (also spelled Yang Shao-hou) and uncle Yang Binhou (also spelled Yang Pan-hou). Yang Chengfu changed the form by removing the much fajing and Qin Na. However he did create a fast form (Yes there are fast forms in Tai Chi)
> Current head of family style is Master Yang Zhen Duo and I believe the next in line is his grandson Master Yang Jun.
> 
> Zhao Bao came from Chen and is very cool, very low, very powerful
> 
> Wu Came from Yang, Pre Yang Cheng Fu
> 
> Wu/Hao also came from Yang, also pre Yang Chengfu
> 
> Sun Came from Wu/Hao. But the founder of Sun was considered a master of Xingyi and Bagua. There is a very good Xingyi book by the Sun founder Sun Lu Tang. Just as a side note Sun Lu Tang daughter and Sun style family head just died last year.
> 
> Zhao Bao is very rare and hard to find it may or may not be a combination of Chen and some other martial art from Zhao village. But it historically comes from a Chen family member.
> 
> Li style I have never seen, but it is also a combination of Tai Chi and other martial arts like Sun style.
> 
> Dong Style is from Tung Ying Chieh, a student of Yang Chengfu. However I do not think Sifu Tung ever called what he taught Dong style. I believe that came from either his son or grandson. Tung Ying Chieh added a second fast form and possibly a second straight sword and broad sword (da dow) form as well. Sifu Tung allegedly studied Wu/Hao prior to studying with Yang Chengfu and there are even some references that he may have studied with Yang Shouhou prior to studying with Yang Chengfu
> 
> Be very careful about Yang style classes or any Tai Chi classes for that matter. Many are not the full family forms. If the Yang class is in Yang 24 and 48 it is not traditional Yang. These are government competition forms. Most unfortunately all the 5 families have government competition forms. These forms are not generally taught be the families. Also depending on what you are after with Tai Chi, health and fitness, martial arts or both. It may be difficult to find an actual Martial Tai Chi School. Most are now for relaxation and health. However Zhao Bao I doubt has gone that root yet. Yang certainly has, Chen may be and I am not sure about Wu, Wu/Hao or Sun. By the way traditional Sun is also rare.
> 
> Also lineage is a good thing but not the end all be all of a good teacher. I know of bad teachers with good lineages and good teachers with less direct lineages. But in general lineage can be a good thing.
> 
> 
> Links of interest
> http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/styles.html
> 
> List of Tai Chi Chuan forms
> http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-tai-chi-chuan-forms?method=22
> 
> Chen style
> http://www.answers.com/Chen%20style%20Tai%20Chi%20Chuan
> 
> Yang Style
> http://www.answers.com/Yang%20style%20Tai%20Chi%20Chuan
> 
> http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/
> 
> Wu/Hao Style
> http://www.answers.com/Wu%2FHao%20style%20T'ai%20Chi%20Ch'uan
> 
> Wu Style
> http://www.answers.com/Wu%20style%20T'ai%20Chi%20Ch'uan
> 
> http://www.wustyle.com/
> 
> Sun Style
> http://www.answers.com/Sun%20style%20T'ai%20Chi%20Ch'uan
> 
> Tchoung Style (this is a new one on me)
> http://www.answers.com/Tchoung%20style%20Tai%20Chi%20Chuan
> 
> Dong Style
> http://www.dongtaichi.com/
> 
> Tai Chi History
> http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/history.html





			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> And here is another one
> 
> Sun family
> International Sun Tai Chi Association
> http://www.suntaichi.com/news.html



Not that I am into quoting myself but didn't I answer this already?

And there are the following families that are recognized by the Chinese government: Chen, Yang, Wu, Wu/hao, Sun, Zhaobao

But there are many other Tai Chi styles, Fu, He, etc.

One big differnce between Wu and Wu/Hao is that the stances are lower in one of them, I believe Wu is lower that Wu/hao, but I am not 100% sure on that one.


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## CrushingFist

I was seeing a Zhao Bao being practiced boy do they get low in the floor.
also the chebucto.ns.ca website don't say much or nothing at all in their difference. and after you click anywhere it doesnt work 

Thanks once again


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## CrushingFist

Been reading so far on Wu, Wu/Hao, Yang, Chen, Sun. 

Only info that talked about its training or stuff was Wu really. 

But I liked a bit 

Wu style, 

Xin Jia Chen, 

Traditional Yang of Lu-Chan and his family style , http://www.nytaichi.com/hwon.htm 

Also Yangjia Michuan (Hidden Tradition) Lu-Chan, Jianhou, Zhang Qinlin, Wang Yen-nien lineage. www.aytma.org 

Didn't get enough information to learn more about Wu/Hao, or Sun. 

But I'll definately add SUn to the list since it talks about Sun's founder knowing already Xingyi & Pakua and later learning Taiji which can be quite interesting to see what it has from these 3 styles. 

Also I just finish reading about DanTao school in NYC which I am interested in now. http://www.sathon.net/ What you guys think?


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## Kensai

Right. My turn. I've located a school near me, beginners course, introductory, come and have a look, train first few lessons for free, get a feel kinda thing. It's Sun style from what I can make out, now I've checked various threads/posts, but I still don't know enough about the differences yet, so can anyone educate me as to what I can expect in Sun style?

Regards,

Kensai :asian:


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## Xue Sheng

Kensai said:
			
		

> Right. My turn. I've located a school near me, beginners course, introductory, come and have a look, train first few lessons for free, get a feel kinda thing. It's Sun style from what I can make out, now I've checked various threads/posts, but I still don't know enough about the differences yet, so can anyone educate me as to what I can expect in Sun style?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Kensai :asian:


 
I have never done Sun style so I cannot tell you much about it beyond
Sun style was developed by Sun Lutang after he studies Xingyi, Bagua and I believe Wu/hao Tai Chi. Sun Lutang was also considered a rather talented Martial Artist.

These may help

Sun Style
http://www.answers.com/Sun%20style%20T'ai%20Chi%20Ch'uan

Sun family
International Sun Tai Chi Association
http://www.suntaichi.com/news.html


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## Kensai

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I have never done Sun style so I cannot tell you much about it beyond
> Sun style was developed by Sun Lutang after he studies Xingyi, Bagua and I believe Wu/hao Tai Chi. Sun Lutang was also considered a rather talented Martial Artist.
> 
> These may help
> 
> Sun Style
> http://www.answers.com/Sun%20style%20T'ai%20Chi%20Ch'uan
> 
> Sun family
> International Sun Tai Chi Association
> http://www.suntaichi.com/news.html


 
Nice one mate, thanks for that. Will have a more in depth look when I'm not at work... Can you believe it, they're actually making me do something today... What's that about?


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## Xue Sheng

Kensai said:
			
		

> Nice one mate, thanks for that. Will have a more in depth look when I'm not at work... Can you believe it, they're actually making me do something today... What's that about?


 

WORK!!!! You have got to get a government job like I have. :uhyeah:


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## Kensai

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> WORK!!!! You have got to get a government job like I have. :uhyeah:


 
Yeah, that'd be cushty. Except for the fact that I trust the British govt about as much as a cat left alone with a goldfish bowl. :asian:


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## CrushingFist

I also heard Sun masters dieing at a very old age


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## Xue Sheng

Kensai said:
			
		

> Yeah, that'd be cushty. Except for the fact that I trust the British govt about as much as a cat left alone with a goldfish bowl. :asian:


 
Well in that case go for it you already trust them slightly more than I trust the one I work for.


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## Kensai

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Well in that case go for it you already trust them slightly more than I trust the one I work for.


 
Lol, fair enough mate, can't really argue with that. I trust your govt even less than my own too. 

Thanks for the help, have had the chance to read through those sites now, looks pretty cool. Sun style that is. Looking forward to starting!!


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## Xue Sheng

Kensai said:
			
		

> Thanks for the help, have had the chance to read through those sites now, looks pretty cool. Sun style that is. Looking forward to starting!!


 
Glad I could help. :asian:


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