# Kenpo Distance Learning?



## shane23ss (Jan 3, 2005)

I know this has been talked about a lot on this site, and I'm sure it has probably been addressed some where else, I just couldn't find it. So I want to ask the question:

1) What does everyone think about Distance Learning Kenpo through video tape? Is it good or bad, agree with it or disagree with it?

2) Who knows (works out or trains with) a Distance Learning BB? What do you think of their skills?

3) Of the people that offer Distant Learning Videos, who do you think offers the best way of doing it and why?

Thanks to everyone in advance.:asian:


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## shane23ss (Jan 3, 2005)

Got some viewers but no takers?


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## MJS (Jan 3, 2005)

shane23ss said:
			
		

> I know this has been talked about a lot on this site, and I'm sure it has probably been addressed some where else, I just couldn't find it. So I want to ask the question:



Hi Shane!  Yes, there has been much discussion about this on MT.  I'll give my .02 on your questions.



> 1) What does everyone think about Distance Learning Kenpo through video tape? Is it good or bad, agree with it or disagree with it?



IMO, nothing can replace an actual instructor.  No tape/DVD out there is going to give you the fine points that you can get from an inst.  As a ref. tool, they are fine.  For example:  If someone went out and bought a BJJ tape set, and they have never trained in BJJ, they are most likely going to have a very hard time picking up the material.  Now, I have been training in BJJ for a while now, and yes, I have some tapes, but again, I use them as a ref., * not * as my sole learning tool.  As for how this applies to Kenpo..same thing.  You need someone IFO you to show the details.



> 2) Who knows (works out or trains with) a Distance Learning BB? What do you think of their skills?



Don't know anyone, so I can't comment.  Well, I'll make a small comment.. :ultracool   I would think that their skill would not be the greatest.



> 3) Of the people that offer Distant Learning Videos, who do you think offers the best way of doing it and why?



If you were going to go with one, I'd say Tatums tapes.  Havent seen them, but have heard many excellent things about them.

Again, I'll stress this point.  I'd definately look for a quality school with an inst. to teach you, rather than a tape/dvd.  Is it possible to learn the material?  Well, anything is possible, but whats the quality gonna be like? 

Mike


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 3, 2005)

I dont believe it can be done. Of course I dont study American Kempo so my opinion may not be worth much. I know there is no way you could learn Shorinji Kempo via video or books. I have books and videos, but they are only any good as a study guide for what I already know. Apart from the fact that the techniques will never be learned properly, how could you ever develop distance, timing, strategy, or reading your opponent?


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jan 3, 2005)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> I dont believe it can be done. Of course I dont study American Kempo so my opinion may not be worth much. I know there is no way you could learn Shorinji Kempo via video or books. I have books and videos, but they are only any good as a study guide for what I already know. Apart from the fact that the techniques will never be learned properly, how could you ever develop distance, timing, strategy, or reading your opponent?


I'll admit, you're never gonna get the same quality without personal instruction, I've seen both and live instruction wins EVERY TIME. I'm of the belief that video instruction can be done to teach most aspects, inlcuding timing, power, etc., you just haven't seen them, YET. That's OK, wait until I get mine online, then you can either fall over in disbelief or render criticisms.

BTW Colin, it's American keNpo, I haven't seen an American keMpo system yet.   Yea, I get dodgy on the spelling because it's what seperates up from the others and I want absolutely no confusion.


DarK LorD


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## Mark Weiser (Jan 3, 2005)

Okay now for my opinion for what it is worth lol! We have dicussed this before. 

Now for instance for an introduction to an art to get some basic ideas and insights to how Kenpo works. Video Tapes are good. There are two places that have an excellent video tape library. 

1.) Larry Tatum & the IKCA has an excellent track record of training and the Black Belts(they have trained) to back up their claims.

I currently train with a live instructor in the art of Hawaiian Kempo here locally. And the background the IKCA gave me thur the tapes is and was a great resource for me. 

I have to agree having a real live person pointing out your mistakes on the spot instead of waiting for the correction tape is the best way to learn. I have done both Video learning and Studio learning. The Tapes are a great resource but nothing beats a real live breathing instructor standing there. 

I have watched the IKCA, Larry Tatum's, and a few other BB's on training tape.

Enough said LOL!


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 3, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> BTW Colin, it's American keNpo, I haven't seen an American keMpo system yet. Yea, I get dodgy on the spelling because it's what seperates up from the others and I want absolutely no confusion.
> 
> 
> DarK LorD


I'll use the kenpo spelling when refering to American styles in future. I didn't think it was important and just prefere the correct romanisation.


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 3, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> I'll admit, you're never gonna get the same quality without personal instruction, I've seen both and live instruction wins EVERY TIME. I'm of the belief that video instruction can be done to teach most aspects, inlcuding timing, power, etc., you just haven't seen them, YET. That's OK, wait until I get mine online, then you can either fall over in disbelief or render criticisms.
> 
> DarK LorD


It is true I cant critique something I have never seen, I just based my opinion on my experiences learning Shorinji Kempo and  my experience in Vocational Education. Do you guys have much in the way of locks and throws? If so I would be surprised if they can be taught satisfactorily by video. Dont get me wrong; Im not having a shot at what you do, because as you say, I have not seen them.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 3, 2005)

My 2 cents...Don't waste your money or your time. There are too many subtleties that are slipping away from the "passing the torch" process within the live-training world, such that the quality of kenpo instruction around the US is already degrading rapidly. How much more so if you don't have the immediate feedback and correction of a live instructor with all the pieces?

Find a live teacher. Then, at least, there is a better chance of fewer pieces dropping out of the knowledge chain. Ever play the game 'telephone'? The further you are away from the original message, the greater the distortion of that message. With a tape, there isn't even a warm body whispering in your ear...just flickering light patterns on a TV screen. Avoid it like the plague. And if you don't, certainly have the presence of mind to never compare yourself with someone who live-chained their BB.

Regards,

Dave


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## ldgman1970 (Jan 3, 2005)

I just started training in Kenpo, about three months now, and I don't know how one could truly learn this art without live instruction. I think they are a great as a reference guide, just got the Tatum Orange belt technique DVDs, but without an instructor to correct you and explain some of the finer nuances I don't know how you could do it on your own. I also think it is necessary to practice on a "dummy" that is actually trying to attack you whether it's in technique line or in sparring. 

Also, not sure about the last comment on the quality of Kenpo training degrading but then again I am studying at Mr. Tatum's school in Pasadena.


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## Danjo (Jan 3, 2005)

I have to agree with the general sentiment here. I use tapes as references and that works out fine, but I have had years of live training in basics etc. so that I know how something is supposed to feel when it's done right. Unless you have had that experience, it would be mighty tough to tell on your own. Of course, if there is just plain no instructors around where you live, then it might be better than nothing. Be prepared, though, to have your technique massively corrected when and if you ever do go to live training.


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## Seig (Jan 4, 2005)

All in all, some good stuff here. My opinionis this, video is a great reference resource. It is a great reminder on material if you do not have an instructor right there in your face. It is, in my opinion, not a good primary instructional source.


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## getgoin (Jan 4, 2005)

For a beginner I would say a real live person is best, hands done. For a beginner to learn from a video is a bad option, you don't get the contact you need, if someone learns by video and never has to option of sparring and doing application, or being hit in general you will fall back onto your pre kenpo abilities. If no one is there to correct anything bad before it becomes habit you could develope some serious problems. It may be harder to train with a live instructor, but it is best for a beginner.

For the advanced MA'ist just learning new ideas or studying something new with no intention or flasehoods of learning everything about a system from a few videos, I would say go for it. Why not learn something new. I purchase tapes of other systems and styles all the time. I have done MA long enough to know what to expect from a video. I also look at them as just a option, I may or may not get something out of them. Either way it was fun to watch (usually).


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## MisterMike (Jan 4, 2005)

Some videos are OK to watch but they don't hear any questions you may have, so it's good to be under a teacher who can explain the details. I'd make sure your teacher has seen the tapes in case there is any differing material on them.

If you do not have a teacher, videos are one way to see what an art like Kenpo has to offer, but if there's one nearby, you should just walk into a school and check it out in person.


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## MJS (Jan 4, 2005)

Here is an interesting article I came across.  It brings up some good points, but there are a few things that I disagree with.  

Thoughts/comments??





> THE METHOD
> The subjects were three women, all of whom were in their 20s and in good health. They were tasked with learn- 10 kenpo karate techniques. For some techniques, the mode of instruction was one-on-one training with a certified personal trainer who holds a black belt in the art. For others, it was by videotape.
> All the techniques were taught on the same day. Two of the students learned in their homes, while the third learned in a commercial martial arts facility. Before each session, they were told to stretch their muscles and perform calisthenics. Then the training commenced.
> Each live technique was performed three times by the instructor. Then the students practiced it with the instructor as the partner until they could execute it proficiently.
> ...


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## Simon Curran (Jan 4, 2005)

I agree with the general populus here, I like to watch the tapes and see if I can pick up something I might have missed in class, but it is hard to see if a technique is going to work for you if you never practice it with live opponents.

Just my opinion.


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## The Kai (Jan 4, 2005)

Find a teacher, don't let the general quality of Kenpo slip into the toliet.  I know it's easy to get your rank from a mailbox, but training ain't about easy!

Todd


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## shane23ss (Jan 4, 2005)

Well, it seems like most people agree that video tapes are not ALL bad, but wouldn't suggest that method for a beginner. I would have to say that I agree although my opinion is not educated. What I mean is that I don't own, nor have I ever seen a tape/dvd on the subject. The reason I started this thread was because it seems like every where I turn, some one is offering video/dvd's on training in Kenpo. I was wondering what people thought of that, because I think about when I was coming up through the ranks, and it seems to me that some things would be hard to get across via video. I would have to say that I think it's better than nothing if some one doesn't have a Kenpo school around.


Next question: What do you guys think about an advanced Kenpoist using video for promotion or even learning sub-level four via video?


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## MJS (Jan 4, 2005)

shane23ss said:
			
		

> Next question: What do you guys think about an advanced Kenpoist using video for promotion or even learning sub-level four via video?



Alot of it today comes down to marketing and the dollar!  People want to make money, so of course, if someone had the chance to offer both live and video inst., the money factor will be greater.  Alot of people do it just because the next guy is doing it.  If one Kenpo inst. comes out with a series, of course, the rest are going to follow.  Supply and demand.

As for learning SL4 by tape...well, I'm not an expert on the subject, but I'd have to say that would not be a wise move.

Mike


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## shane23ss (Jan 4, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> As for learning SL4 by tape...well, I'm not an expert on the subject, but I'd have to say that would not be a wise move.
> 
> Mike


I'm no expert on the subject either, I may be way off here. It may not even be possible to send SL4 info over video. Hopefully Doc will respond to this thread and set us straight.


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## Danjo (Jan 4, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Here is an interesting article I came across. It brings up some good points, but there are a few things that I disagree with.
> 
> Thoughts/comments??


Uh...was this from an add for a video set perchance?


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## Danjo (Jan 4, 2005)

Another key thing here is that the instructor did not correct the students. So what we find is that learning from a video and learning from an instructor that will not correct your technique is about the same. That's about what I would have thought.


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## MJS (Jan 4, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Uh...was this from an add for a video set perchance?



I saw it on Larry Tatums site.  It appears to be a simple test between live training vs. video training.

Mike


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## Danjo (Jan 4, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> I saw it on Larry Tatums site. It appears to be a simple test between live training vs. video training.
> 
> Mike


Ok. Tatum sells a video set for training through black belt, so I can see whay he would have that on there. Again the key is that the instructor did not offer correction to the students any more than a video would.


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## MJS (Jan 4, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Another key thing here is that the instructor did not correct the students. So what we find is that learning from a video and learning from an instructor that will not correct your technique is about the same. That's about what I would have thought.









> Each live technique was performed three times by the instructor. Then the students practiced it with the instructor as the partner until they could execute it proficiently.
> Each video-based technique was viewed three times. Then the students practiced it with the instructor, but he merely served as the attacker. He did not make corrections or offer advice.



Upon reading this, it does not state if corrections were made under the live conditions.  The video session simulates not having an inst. hence, no corrections are going to be made.  He was simply serving as the 'attacker'

Mike


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## MJS (Jan 4, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Ok. Tatum sells a video set for training through black belt, so I can see whay he would have that on there. Again the key is that the instructor did not offer correction to the students any more than a video would.



As I said, it does not appear that corrections were made.  So, if thats the case, IMO, it was a very poor comparison, because if the live inst. is any good, they will be offering advice.  A better test would have been to have the live inst. show the tech. to the students, with corrections being made by him, questions being answered, etc. 

Mike


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 5, 2005)

Even if the instructor is not correcting, he is attacking and reacting correctly (that's a supposition), which is a luxury most people studying at home don't have.


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## MJS (Jan 5, 2005)

Kenpomachine said:
			
		

> Even if the instructor is not correcting, he is attacking and reacting correctly (that's a supposition), which is a luxury most people studying at home don't have.



True.  But, I still feel that its important to have an understanding of the tech.  If your footwork is off, strikes are not being placed properly, etc. how effective is that tech. going to be?  

I recently had the chance to work with another Kenpo inst. in my area.  In the hour lesson, we only covered a small amount of material, but in that time, I was amazed as to the slight details that I was leaving out.  Once I made the corrections, the tech. went much better.  The improvements were very obvious to me anyway.

Mike


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## The Kai (Jan 5, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> True. But, I still feel that its important to have an understanding of the tech. If your footwork is off, strikes are not being placed properly, etc. how effective is that tech. going to be?
> 
> I recently had the chance to work with another Kenpo inst. in my area. In the hour lesson, we only covered a small amount of material, but in that time, I was amazed as to the slight details that I was leaving out. Once I made the corrections, the tech. went much better. The improvements were very obvious to me anyway.
> 
> Mike


Right there, that's the ticket.  Please remember that any study is as good as the pre set parameters.  Also the study was published by a magazine that's makes money advertising selling the tapes
Todd


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## MJS (Jan 5, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Right there, that's the ticket.  Please remember that any study is as good as the pre set parameters.  Also the study was published by a magazine that's makes money advertising selling the tapes
> Todd



Well said Sir! :asian:   As for me posting that study...I did not set out in a search to find info. I happened to stumble across it while looking at Mr. Tatums site.  

You are absolutely correct though...it was put out by people trying to promote the home study courses that are offered.  

I guess that nobody can control who each individual studies.  I can only speak for me, and I prefer to train under a living, breathing, inst.

Mike


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## shane23ss (Jan 5, 2005)

I understand the IKCA requires you to send a tape back to them for sort of a belt test. Do the others, such as Tatum and Accord do this?


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## bdparsons (Jan 7, 2005)

Though video training should not be the first choice if qualified instructors are available, it can be a viable alternative provided certain parameters are met:

Credibility-The people you learn from must be legit.

Affordability-Otherwise what's the point?

Accessability-You must have the means to ask questions and get clarification when needed.

Accountablity-Without being held accountable for what you're learning (read: detailed critique and proper testing) then it's probably an exercise in futility.

Easy-no. Possible-yes.

Kinda funny that eveything I mentioned needs to be present in a face-to-face training scenario too. Hmm... must mean good instruction is good instruction regardless of the medium.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## John Bishop (Jan 7, 2005)

Sort of like learning how to play football from videos.  Your never going to know if you can really block and tackle until you get on the field with other players.  
But football's a game.  Self defense isn't.


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## The Kai (Jan 7, 2005)

It's all about the cash, and the easy way to black belt.  The foundation of any art is hands on.  

Todd


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## Danjo (Jan 7, 2005)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Sort of like learning how to play football from videos. Your never going to know if you can really block and tackle until you get on the field with other players.
> But football's a game. Self defense isn't.


I agree. Unless you have had someone throw a punch or kick at you, or try to tackle or take you down, it is impossible to perfect your timing, reflexes and nerve. It essentially becomes Tae-Bo or something similar if it's all just the moves without the hands on. You at least need a partner to get the trial and error part of it down. When I was a kid my uncle and me would use Bruce Tegner's self defense book to practice moves in the front yard. If a move didn't seem to work we kept at it until we could make it work. That took a lot longer than if we had been taught by an instructor, but it did work in a sort of long arduous way.


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## BallistikMike (Jan 7, 2005)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Sort of like learning how to play football from videos. Your never going to know if you can really block and tackle until you get on the field with other players.
> But football's a game. Self defense isn't.


That is exactly right Mr. Bishop. 

I learned to play the game of football pretty much like every boy. I watched football then went outside and played with my friends pretending to be Walter Peyton (RIP) until I was older and it became more organised.

The key is I "Watched" and learned the game, then went on to practice. The same exact thing can happen in the MA's. 

The IKCA isn't claiming to teach anything but a basic no nonsense approach to the Kenpo they teach. They present the material. They correct the material. You must also correct the material. You must also practice it.

It isn't instant correction like a live instructor. It isn't instant feed back either. It most definitely isn't for everyone. 

Through video, forums, emails, phone calls and live seminars the relationship of student and teacher is alive and well.

I will say this. Those that I have talked to, myself included, have a solid base in a previous MA and also have solid training partners, but not all.

Distance learning is a very viable option in todays world and will only get better. 

Respectfully


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## Danjo (Jan 7, 2005)

I'm not running down training via video IF you have no other choice and IF you have had previous training. It is much better still if you have a partner. But , in my opinion, it will never be as good as live training. Also, if you have only trained via video, you are very likely to get a false impression of how good you are.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 8, 2005)

shane23ss said:
			
		

> I'm no expert on the subject either, I may be way off here. It may not even be possible to send SL4 info over video. Hopefully Doc will respond to this thread and set us straight.


Can't be done. Kenpo alone is too complex a machine to be learned via video. Doc's SL4-K consists of torques and tweeks (to put it *super*-simply) to kenpo that are impossible to learn except via live transmission; experienced kenpo BB's have to start over with their basics, just to lay the groundwork for supporting future activities. An SL4 video will most likely only ever be a comparative analysis & demonstration for thought-provoking purposes, and not instructional. That is to say, I certainly don't see how it could be done.

Dave


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## shane23ss (Jan 8, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Can't be done. Kenpo alone is too complex a machine to be learned via video. Doc's SL4-K consists of torques and tweeks (to put it *super*-simply) to kenpo that are impossible to learn except via live transmission; experienced kenpo BB's have to start over with their basics, just to lay the groundwork for supporting future activities. An SL4 video will most likely only ever be a comparative analysis & demonstration for thought-provoking purposes, and not instructional. That is to say, I certainly don't see how it could be done.
> 
> Dave


I've never trained in SL4, but have researched and read some about it. I agree with what you have said here, it is entirely to complex to be learned by video. I think the fact that you can really only view it from one angle is most of the problem, not to mention the fact that you have no "hands on" and no one there to adjust your "hands on" if you did have it.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 8, 2005)

shane23ss said:
			
		

> I've never trained in SL4, but have researched and read some about it. I agree with what you have said here, it is entirely to complex to be learned by video. I think the fact that you can really only view it from one angle is most of the problem, not to mention the fact that you have no "hands on" and no one there to adjust your "hands on" if you did have it.


That's certainly part of it. Doc can help you refine your kenpo in conversation at a hamburger stand in half an hour, but that information goes back and forth over live, interactive, kinesthetic (feeling) channels of communication wherein he can show you, do it on you, have you feel it, then do it back so he can clean it up.  No burger, no Doc, no transfer of information.  Memorex won't do.

D


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## shane23ss (Jan 8, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> That's certainly part of it. Doc can help you refine your kenpo in conversation at a hamburger stand in half an hour, but that information goes back and forth over live, interactive, kinesthetic (feeling) channels of communication wherein he can show you, do it on you, have you feel it, then do it back so he can clean it up. No burger, no Doc, no transfer of information. Memorex won't do.
> 
> D


What can I say, great minds think alike.:asian:


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## scfgabe (Jan 8, 2005)

I just began my study of the great art of American Kenpo. I would feel totally lost if it weren't for the great people at my school, including my instructor. My advice would be to find a great instructor that is skilled and passionate about their art and learn from them, even if it isn't Kenpo (which is hard for me to say). Other marterials can be used as a _reference_ for what you are taught. 

Good luck!


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## howardr (Jan 10, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Can't be done. Kenpo alone is too complex a machine to be learned via video. Doc's SL4-K consists of torques and tweeks (to put it *super*-simply) to kenpo that are impossible to learn except via live transmission; experienced kenpo BB's have to start over with their basics, just to lay the groundwork for supporting future activities. An SL4 video will most likely only ever be a comparative analysis & demonstration for thought-provoking purposes, and not instructional. That is to say, I certainly don't see how it could be done.
> 
> Dave



Hello! It was nice meeting you the other day.

I used to wonder (early on) whether SL4 was really torques and tweeks (albeit many and major ones), but lately I've come around to seeing it as something radically different. Seems to me that it really may be an entirely different Kenpo (same but different). And, the proper differentia would be _anatomical_ (i.e., SL4) Kenpo vs. _conceptual/motion_ Kenpo. Since that is a fundamental difference in orientation, philosophy and grounding, the common frame of reference might be now of a more superficial nature, which may make it inappropriate to speak of torques and tweeks. In other words, is it really just torques and tweeks _or_ is it that what appears to be torques and tweeks is really an introduction and vehicle for something radically different?

Just a thought.

See you in class.


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## clapping_tiger (Jan 10, 2005)

Although I trained at a school and not by video, I am a part of the IKCA which is known for it's video testing. My Black Belt test was sent to Mr. LeRoux and Mr. Sullivan for grading, but aside from that I never tested via video. But in it's defense I have met some very good video students, and have seen some bad ones. Mr. LeRoux will not pass you on to the next level just to do so, and some people think the video testing is an easy way to pass. This is not always the case. But just like at all schools and all arts, you have your good and you have the ones who suck. I don't think I could have learned via video, but some people can. It takes a special type of person with the commitment and self-motivation to learn from these tapes. Overall the IKCA does a good job of reaching the students who do not have access to a kenpo school near them. Also a lot of others have roots in Kenpo and maybe have moved and this is a way for them to continue to advance and learn the art they like. Also, they make themselves available for emails, phone calls, Seminars, or whatever means you want to contact them with questions. Also on your test you get corrections and things to work on and if those problems are still present on your next test, you don't pass. In short it can be done, but don't expect to get the same from a video, as you would by going to train at a good school. But the quality of the material is pretty good. I can't comment on how Mr. Tatum's process works because I have never seen it.


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## clapping_tiger (Jan 10, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> I agree. Unless you have had someone throw a punch or kick at you, or try to tackle or take you down, it is impossible to perfect your timing, reflexes and nerve. It essentially becomes Tae-Bo or something similar if it's all just the moves without the hands on. You at least need a partner to get the trial and error part of it down.



This is very true. Some video students don't have access to live training partners but do the best they can with what they have and you (not you specificly but MA community in general) can't cut them down for training the only way they have access to. Most of the video students train in pairs though, and although may not be part of a large class, they do get to spar each other and use each other as live dummies. Sparring is required for testing so you need to find someone sometime to spar with. Granted the varity of styles wouldn't be there, but at least you get to train. Remember, most of the people training by video, from what I have seen, don't have access to a MA school, or Kenpo school.


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## The Kai (Jan 10, 2005)

Yes, it costs more but I try to fly my instructor in and learn that way.  It is slower, since I cannot afford to "mail" him to me, yet the "little things" are what makes the process great-any body can say tiger claw to face,how about understanding the mechanics, applications, effect..etc??

In my opinion there is always a way to spread kenpo, thru the mail probably not the best way.  It is a picture of a steak, not the steak


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## shane23ss (Jan 10, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Yes, it costs more but I try to fly my instructor in and learn that way. It is slower, since I cannot afford to "mail" him to me, yet the "little things" are what makes the process great-any body can say tiger claw to face,how about understanding the mechanics, applications, effect..etc??
> 
> In my opinion there is always a way to spread kenpo, thru the mail probably not the best way. It is a picture of a steak, not the steak


I guess that's one way to do it.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 10, 2005)

howardr said:
			
		

> Hello! It was nice meeting you the other day.
> 
> I used to wonder (early on) whether SL4 was really torques and tweeks (albeit many and major ones), but lately I've come around to seeing it as something radically different. Seems to me that it really may be an entirely different Kenpo (same but different). And, the proper differentia would be _anatomical_ (i.e., SL4) Kenpo vs. _conceptual/motion_ Kenpo. Since that is a fundamental difference in orientation, philosophy and grounding, the common frame of reference might be now of a more superficial nature, which may make it inappropriate to speak of torques and tweeks. In other words, is it really just torques and tweeks _or_ is it that what appears to be torques and tweeks is really an introduction and vehicle for something radically different?
> 
> ...


Well, there you have it. Out in the open, with no room for misinterpretation. "Torques and tweeks" was meant to avoid ruffling the feathers of folks who may have invested years in kenpo, continuing to believe their efforts were well-placed. But, me-thinks you're closer than not. I'm minimizing to avoid controversy, but what da heck...

First off, Howard, I know you had a chance to learn some AK prior to joining Doc's cult of kenpo perfectionists (said affectionately).  You've had a chance to see what a class typically looks and sounds like, and even what some of the techniques and forms looked like before Doc started re-tooling them. Kind of anemic by comparison if you run the memory in your mind, si?

"If you reference the perspective of a different starting point,..."

Starting with indexing and the basics, SL-4 immediately stands out as different because the foundational basics are different. What Doc refers to as "indexes" are positional prestretches that make the mind of a plyometrics fan race with the implications of the meanings. The neurophysiological basis for plyometrics is based largely on recruitment of a larger number of muscle fibers in a pre-stretch phase that precedes the gross major movement; that stretch activate a greater number of neuroreceptors in the muscle fibers themselves, meaning that...when released...more of the muscles mass will come into play in the final motion. Also, looking at the work of guys like Sherrington, there are relationships in neural circuitry, such that: When you turn on more of one muscle A (the agonist), that muscles neighbors and helpers are told via spinal cord shortcuts to wake up! Pay attention! Get ready to snap to, boys! Primary agonists and synergists are attenuated at a much higher level than in the standard methods of execution; joint stabilizers otherwise left nearly electrically silent are attenuated, lending stability to the entire kinematic chain (all of the muscles and joints in an arm or leg, and the muscles that connect them to the torso); musculature along the kinematic chains of the "uninvolved" extremity limbs are conjointly attenuated through indexing, causing a substantial and measurable improvement in body-wide stability.  Doc's presentation of stepping forward into a neutral bow with a lead hand inward block has so many indexes and structural alignment mechanisms in it that are absent in mainstream kenpo, that by the time you've completed the remaining technique series (with follow-up strikes and foot maneuvers, with the indexes, PAM's, BAM,s etc.), the final product is like, well...kenpo on years of steroids.

Doc prefers reference to the _anatomical alignment_ of his system, but anatomy is, generally, considered static: The existence and nomenclature of a part, and it's relationship to other parts (i.e., bodypart A is inferior, medial, and anterior to bodypart B).  When they look at just the most simple actions of how these parts work at a gross mechanical level, the study switches from "antomy" to "functional anatomy", "biomechanics", "kinesiology", and "physiology". Sub-divisions or specializations also exist: for example, "Neuro-Anatomy", and "Neuro-Physiology". The challenge with classifying Sub-Level 4 as "anatomical kenpo", is the old "parts is parts" saying. Everybody has all the same parts. The way Doc is stacking them, and recruiting them for unified motion and purpose is what really makes SL4 stand out as being radically different from motion kenpo. Now, if you wanna get jiggy with it, add the dimensions of destructive sequencing and meridian mapping to the angle and direction of the indexed strikes, coming from an aligned platform..."Anatomical" kenpo really doesn't do it justice.

When y'all were practicing Short 2...if you remember Short 2 from your pre-SL4-K days, than you know you're doing something completely different, even though you're approaching it in similar phases. Self-Defense techs are grossly recognizeable because of the sequence of counters, and some of the signature movements. But what's done _*on the way to the movement, and in the execution of the movement...*both *by* the defender and *to* the perp_... are so dramatically different from what's generally available in kenpo, that there definitely has to be some way to differentiate it. I've heard some guys say, essentially, "Yeah, we do sub-level 4", meaning they throw in some nerve strikes and entanglements, but the reality is, *No...they don't*. To be able to secure positional stability before, during, and after each block/strike/maneuver, while breaking a guy down like that, is radically different than motion kenpo.

When y'all were practicing SF3, I asked Doc, "why the change in the opening move of Destructive Twins?". What I thought was simply the stylistic opening of one hand, instead of the closing of both, turned out to be a change in:
1. Indexing before moving
2. Platform stabilization so the stance and torso are strong bases to deliver from
3. A change in the anatomical relationship of the Left shoulder joint, and accompanying attenuation of every muscle crossing the shoulder joint I could think of (and I can think of a lot)
4.  A neurophysiological cue from the hand to the brain (fingers straight, carpals forced anteriorly via full wrist extension), and back again to get the open kinematic chain of the left upper extremity to support against approaching resistance...something it was totally incapable of while in the original overhand/closed-fist position.

That kind of structural integrity was simply not possible in the closed-hand version of the opening move. And that's just 1 move in all of short 3. Each of the techniques has this sort of thought and innovation put into completely re-tooling it.

So, yes...tweeking and torquing was an understatement...an intentional one. Some things one could pick up from Doc in a 20 minute hallway conversation, and take years re-formatting their hard drive just to incorporate. For example...palm facing forward, as in a bracing index...fingers bent, or not bent? What are the implications for the signals to and from the brain, and their implications for strength in a forward push vs. rearward pull? That's 4 minutes of show & tell; at least a year of re-training bad habits to actually "show up" with this in your techniques, sparring, and self-defense.

If, in the future, you see me short-changing SL4 by using minimalist terminology, please understand it is simply for the purposes of verbal economy. If you actually read the length of this post, there are many things alluded to, very few described, and lots of words. All to describe only a very few things. SL4 is a voluminous body of information, and must be glossed over lightly if one wishes to do anything else with their night than type.  Plus, if you can't "show" the person reading your post what some indexes are, and how they strengthen technique, how many words do you think it would take?

5 Swords is still 5 swords, but with the alignment and attenuation mechanisms in place, it is an awesome 5 swords that rocks the other guy, while preventing you from being budged any direction except the one(s) you choose. If you can figure out how to economically describe the differences by saying something other than "looks a lot like 5 swords, but with some tweeks and torques that make it stronger and more efficient", pleeeeze let me know.

See ya next week Howard.

Dave


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 10, 2005)

How much harder to get this quality of information from a tape?

D


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## getgoin (Jan 11, 2005)

That was a incredable post. I feel like I have just been schooled and it felt good.:supcool:


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## Danjo (Jan 11, 2005)

clapping_tiger said:
			
		

> This is very true. Some video students don't have access to live training partners but do the best they can with what they have and you (not you specificly but MA community in general) can't cut them down for training the only way they have access to. Most of the video students train in pairs though, and although may not be part of a large class, they do get to spar each other and use each other as live dummies. Sparring is required for testing so you need to find someone sometime to spar with. Granted the varity of styles wouldn't be there, but at least you get to train. Remember, most of the people training by video, from what I have seen, don't have access to a MA school, or Kenpo school.


I wasn't cutting them down, but rather saying that unless one has someone to throw a punch, kick etc at you, you can't develop the needed timing and nerve. Kempo/Kenpo is very application based in it's approach to the martial arts compared to the more kata based traditional systems. Though the katas do exist in Kempo/Kenpo, it is nearly always approached through a hands on "punch in for me" way. Someone with a good sense of physical mimicry could well learn to imitate the form that they see on the screen.( Heck, I learned how to do a spinning back kick from watching Chuck Norris movies when I was a teenager) But, the application that is so crucial to the Kempo/Kenpo experience would be very difficult to develop from even a very precise imitation of form without a training partner.


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## clapping_tiger (Jan 11, 2005)

I know that you were not cutting them down, that is why I said not you specifically. But there are many who are quick to say that a video student is less of a martial artist than they, or whatever.   I agree with what you said in full. I know I couldn't have learned from video, but like I said I have met some very good Martial Artists who did. Granted their whole training was not by video, they have gone to visit Mr. LeRoux and Mr. Sullivan in CA. or had them flown out to them, or attend every seminar they can. The main purpose of my post was to attempt to have people judge a person by their knowledge and ability first and then their method of learning it after that. Because like I said, there are still crappy Martial Artists who go to excellent schools and vice versa. 

And as far as needing to have that punch, kick, grab, ect. Done to you to be able to develop the timing and "feel" for the attacks. You are right, and I agree 100%. Video students NEED to have a partner to work with, if you are training by video and you don't have one. You are missing out on 99% of your training.


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## The Kai (Jan 11, 2005)

the problem is while videos give you a rough idea of the movement-the whys and hows are left up to the student to discover or chance upon, which is kind of ineffecient.

What you have is high rankings withut a lot of understanding of the whys


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## John Bishop (Jan 11, 2005)

clapping_tiger said:
			
		

> And as far as needing to have that punch, kick, grab, ect. Done to you to be able to develop the timing and "feel" for the attacks. You are right, and I agree 100%. Video students NEED to have a partner to work with, if you are training by video and you don't have one. You are missing out on 99% of your training.


Yes, and you need partners who possess varying degrees of skill.  Not just one partner who is at your level or below.
One of the important teaching tools is the use of the "technique line", "monkey line", "bull in the ring", etc.  
It puts you up against partners of various ranks, differant sizes, differant speeds, differant strengths, etc.  
When you train or spar with just one partner, you get to the point where you can read them like a book.  You then end up working in a comfort zone that dosen't challenge or stress you.  Basically, just going thru the motions.  
When you work against differant partners, your forced to think on your feet and "make your techniques work", no matter who your opponant is.


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## clapping_tiger (Jan 11, 2005)

I know, and I agree I do not disagree with that fact. It is easy to get real good at beating on the same guy. I am not saying it is the best way to train in MA, but to some it is all they have access to. Another thing to remember is that even if they do not have access to an instructor face to face 3 or 4 days a week, they do have feedback by video. Granted it is not the best way, but if you are doing something wrong, you are told how to correct it. Video testing brings MA training to the person who may live in a small town and not have immediate access to a school. Nothing compares to having an instructor correct you on the spot and also give you encouagement, I am not disputing that fact. But the video program is better than books, better than the "buy my video and I will send you the entire program and your BB certificate" programs, and I am sorry to say better than *some* of the schools out there. You know, the ones that don't allow any contact.


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## clapping_tiger (Jan 11, 2005)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Yes, and you need partners who possess varying degrees of skill.  Not just one partner who is at your level or below.
> One of the important teaching tools is the use of the "technique line", "monkey line", "bull in the ring", etc.
> It puts you up against partners of various ranks, differant sizes, differant speeds, differant strengths, etc.
> When you train or spar with just one partner, you get to the point where you can read them like a book.  You then end up working in a comfort zone that dosen't challenge or stress you.  Basically, just going thru the motions.
> When you work against differant partners, your forced to think on your feet and "make your techniques work", no matter who your opponant is.




By the way what is the Monkey Line? I have never heard of a drill called that before.


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## Simon Curran (Jan 12, 2005)

KEMBUDO-KAI KEMPOKA

Thanks very much for that post regarding sub level 4, I'm not sure I understood it, but it definately gave a bit more of an insight into the nature of Dr. Chapel's work than the brief description in Black Belt Magazine gave, and now my only question is...
Why ain't there nobody to teach us SL4 over here...


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## John Bishop (Jan 12, 2005)

clapping_tiger said:
			
		

> By the way what is the Monkey Line? I have never heard of a drill called that before.


It's a Kajukenbo term (monkey see, monkey do).  I've been told it's the same as what the Kenpo people call a "technique line", where you do your techniques on everyone in the line, so you get a feel for differant opponants speed, size, strenth's, etc.


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## shane23ss (Jan 12, 2005)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Yes, and you need partners who possess varying degrees of skill. Not just one partner who is at your level or below.
> One of the important teaching tools is the use of the "technique line", "monkey line", "bull in the ring", etc.
> It puts you up against partners of various ranks, differant sizes, differant speeds, differant strengths, etc.
> When you train or spar with just one partner, you get to the point where you can read them like a book. You then end up working in a comfort zone that dosen't challenge or stress you. Basically, just going thru the motions.
> When you work against differant partners, your forced to think on your feet and "make your techniques work", no matter who your opponant is.


This is an excellent comment. I completely agree here.


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## Mark Weiser (Jan 14, 2005)

Not trying to steal the thread. But I think this is related to this subject.  The IKCA is currently offering a week of *FREE *Kenpo Lessons in the first week of August in the Seal Beach area. 

Now I think any IKCA student whom studies via distance learning should make ever effort to attend this training that is offered by Chuck and Vic (whom both will be teaching). I for one along with the wife are making preperations to attend this program. This will allow corrections in person and get a real taste of live instruction. This will make the program more exciting. 

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser


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