# Why your TKD blocks may not work



## JowGaWolf (Nov 2, 2018)

I found this video last night while looking for Jow Ga Kung Fu and I was surprised to see that the movements were very similar to some of the grappling defenses and strikes found in Jow Ga Kung Fu.   It was close enough to make me think that TKD blocks are really not blocks.  I gave it some good thought. 

These so call blocks also don't make sense when I'm thinking about blocking a TKD kick.  





*Low block* -  This is the same movement that is made in Jow Ga Kung Fu to "wipe a grabbing hand." basically someone is trying to grab your arm or wrist for control and you are striking the grabbing hand.  In Jow Ga we use an open hand instead of the closes fist.  The reason I don't think this is a block is because of the position of the block as he does it.  The concept is that you strike the grabbing hand with the fist and pull your arm back during the strike to escape the grab attempt. 

*Middle Block* - Is a good ole fashion hammer fist strike. If someone grabs your arm you pull them towards you which gives you an opportunity to either to strike the grabbing arm off your arm.  It looks like it could be a hammer fist strike to the head

*The High Block* - looks very similar to an anti-grabbing technique that scrapes the grabbing arm from the bottom.  If someone grabs your hand from the top then your bottom hand goes under your arm and you scrape along your arm to strike the forearm of the grabbing and upward.  The reason the hand travels under the arm is because it's less interference and you need to send the force upward.  To test the concept have someone try to grab your arm and right before they are able to lock the grab, strike their forearm upward.  It's the same principle as the "Low Block" one hand strikes as the other hand escapes.

*Outside block* -  This looks like Chin-Na to me. Someone grabs your arm so you circle it in order to force their wrist to take a bad position.  The pop at the end allows you to escape the grab and puts your hand in position to counter grab.  The other arm that comes to your chest is actually the position for a loaded punch ready to go.  Basically you escape the grip, control the arm and now you are in position to counter punch.


I COULD BE WRONG, BUT I DON'T THINK I AM lol.

Some of you TKD guys try this out and let me know how it works and if it works.


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## DaveB (Nov 2, 2018)

Your not wrong.

Tkd is derived from karate, Shotokan in particular. It was bolted together quickly for political purposes at the end of Japan's rule over Korea so was effectively karate with more kicking.

It has evolved into it's own animal over time, but it holds onto these and other throwbacks to it's Shotokan roots.

Within the karate world the "blocks" were always understood to be way more than that, but for teaching to groups labels were helpful and thus introduced. Then when karate got to Japan it was ported over as a combination between exercise and militarization of the youth. Moving in lines on command was the priority, not makinv movements fit your individual stature. Then ww2 happened and the Japanese lost the taste for fighting. Martial arts should be sports only and in the cas3 of Shotokan the Japanese took the reigns and did things their way, having the tactical gaps filled in with principles from kendo.

As such blocks remained blocks, with the odd exception of a teacher who either ventured to Okinawa or who combined knowledge of another art like jujitsu with movements they recognised.

Until the combined might of the ufc and the internet got karateka searching for better ways to apply their art to real fighting and the bunkai (Japanese for analysis or something similar) revolution spread.  Now there's a ton of research and videos and even an organisation or two dedicated to more practical application of karate techniques.

I believe that the TKD community are involved too, so your observations shouldn't surprise all of them.

There's a terrible book called 100 downblocks where the authors try to illustrate the infinite potential of any given technique. It's terrible because they succeed in showing how definitely finite the potential is, especially if you value staying alive.


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## Hanzou (Nov 2, 2018)

Frankly, I have serious doubts that that stuff would work against strikes or grabs. I've personally never seen them used against wrestling or grappling, and within grappling itself, we don't use any of that to counter those types of grips. Unfortunately, its more theory than practical application against skilled fighters, which seems to be the hang up for a lot of traditional martial arts.


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## wab25 (Nov 2, 2018)

This is a great article: Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate

Funakoshi taught these as throws and off balancing techniques. The label "block" is just there to help when teaching elementary school students. Unfortunately, to many people took the elementary school version to be the real thing. It was great to teaching body movements...



JowGaWolf said:


> I found this video last night while looking for Jow Ga Kung Fu and I was surprised to see that the movements were very similar to some of the grappling defenses and strikes found in Jow Ga Kung Fu. It was close enough to make me think that TKD blocks are really not blocks. *I gave it some good thought.*


 This is how it is supposed to be. They are not blocks... they are grip releases, throws, off balancing techniques, strikes, joint locks, chokes... (they might even be blocks as well, in some situations). People need to give thought to what they are learning. Many times, searching out the history and context can aid a lot in understanding what you are learning.


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## wab25 (Nov 2, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Frankly, I have serious doubts that that stuff would work against strikes or grabs. I've personally never seen them used against wrestling or grappling, and within grappling itself, we don't use any of that to counter those types of grips. Unfortunately, its more theory than practical application against skilled fighters, which seems to be the hang up for a lot of traditional martial arts.


Please see the Machida article in my above post. It includes video of Machida applying the classic down block, as Funakoshi taught, as a throw in a UFC fight.


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## Hanzou (Nov 2, 2018)

wab25 said:


> Please see the Machida article in my above post. It includes video of Machida applying the classic down block, as Funakoshi taught, as a throw in a UFC fight.



Whoop dee do. Machida is a Bjj black belt from one of the best schools in Brazil and a former sumo champion, so please stop trying to use him as an example of high end karate. He's an example of high end MMA, nothing more, nothing less.

Show me someone from Karate without a Bjj and Sumo background performing that throw, then I'll be impressed.


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## skribs (Nov 2, 2018)

*Down Block - *Used statically you will break your arm.  Used with movement you can catch most kicks and then sweep the leg.
*Middle Block - *You can go back and forth with this, inside-outside, and quite efficiently block punches
*High Block* - Very useful for getting their arm out of the way for a strike to the gut.

I have no issues using these techniques as blocks.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Whoop dee do. Machida is a Bjj black belt from one of the best schools in Brazil and a former sumo champion, so please stop trying to use him as an example of high end karate. He's an example of high end MMA, nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> Show me someone from Karate without a Bjj and Sumo background performing that throw, then I'll be impressed.


Machida's background wasn't his point. He was pointing to an example of someone using what he's talking about against a high-level fighter. That it's a grappler using it is, if anything, likely support for it being within the principles of good grappling.


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## skribs (Nov 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Machida's background wasn't his point. He was pointing to an example of someone using what he's talking about against a high-level fighter. That it's a grappler using it is, if anything, likely support for it being within the principles of good grappling.



There's something people kept saying to me in threads in the TKD forum "don't think of it as a block."  Well, it MIGHT be able to be used as a grappling technique, or a strike, or a grab break, etc.  But it still CAN be a block.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2018)

skribs said:


> There's something people kept saying to me in threads in the TKD forum "don't think of it as a block."  Well, it MIGHT be able to be used as a grappling technique, or a strike, or a grab break, etc.  But it still CAN be a block.


I think there are two schools on this. One is to only use movements that have a high incidence of application and reliability. The other is to explore movements and look for ways to apply the principles you know. So, there are a lot of movements I likely won't teach as blocks, but which I can use to block things (and won't tell students they can't/shouldn't). Some of those are movements I originally picked up in grappling, and just showed up in blocking at some point. And even some bits of movement that have graduated in the other direction.


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## skribs (Nov 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think there are two schools on this. One is to only use movements that have a high incidence of application and reliability. The other is to explore movements and look for ways to apply the principles you know. So, there are a lot of movements I likely won't teach as blocks, but which I can use to block things (and won't tell students they can't/shouldn't). Some of those are movements I originally picked up in grappling, and just showed up in blocking at some point. And even some bits of movement that have graduated in the other direction.



Yes.  But if it's being taught specifically as a block...chances are it will work in that application!


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## dvcochran (Nov 2, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I found this video last night while looking for Jow Ga Kung Fu and I was surprised to see that the movements were very similar to some of the grappling defenses and strikes found in Jow Ga Kung Fu.   It was close enough to make me think that TKD blocks are really not blocks.  I gave it some good thought.
> 
> These so call blocks also don't make sense when I'm thinking about blocking a TKD kick.
> 
> ...



It is always interesting to hear individual techniques explained from different styles/perspectives. It is important for anyone learning a MA style to understand the purpose of a move, not just how the move is performed. My dominant background is in TKD with strong influence from Moo Duk Kwan, a little Kung Fu (green sash), and Kali.
It is a quandary within TDK that there are so many variations within teaching. It makes it difficult to have a single definition of what Tae Kwon Do is. More so how to explain a single move. The dividing lines are very strong between WTF and ITF. So much so that they can be easily identified as two completely different styles.

To your question, I can only answer from my TKD perspective so here goes.

I thought the video was good but there are fundamental elements missing. ALL moves in TKD use the Yin Yang (Um Yang) principal. Everything has an equal and opposite. This is a common theme in many MA styles and the basis for creating power and speed. It is utilizing the whole body.  There were several times in the video that the movements were very segmented and the corresponding body parts were not in unison.

*Low block* -  This is the same movement that is made in Jow Ga Kung Fu to "wipe a grabbing hand." basically someone is trying to grab your arm or wrist for control and you are striking the grabbing hand.  In Jow Ga we use an open hand instead of the closes fist.  The reason I don't think this is a block is because of the position of the block as he does it.  The concept is that you strike the grabbing hand with the fist and pull your arm back during the strike to escape the grab attempt.​
*You have a very specific approach to using a low block, similar to kali's idea of attacking whatever is closest. In TKD a low block is not a scraping movement aimed solely at the hand. It is simply blocking or moving anything that is attacking you low. The common example is a strike towards the groin. You are blocking low so the blocking arm starts high. The ready hand is extended straight and forward in a slightly downward position, palm up. This should influence a twisting motion, a windup of sorts, twisting so that the block side hip turns forward. This allows the blocking action to incorporate all of the body especially the powerful hip muscles. As you begin to pull the blocking arm down to intercept whatever is attacking (kick, hand, etc...), the ready hand pulls back, This is the opposing Yin Yang of the hands/arms. At the same time the hips are snapping back opposing the shoulders. These blocking arm is always on top.  *

*Middle Block - *Is a good ole fashion hammer fist strike. If someone grabs your arm you pull them towards you which gives you an opportunity to either to strike the grabbing arm off your arm.  It looks like it could be a hammer fist strike to the head

*A middle block can use from the mid-forearm to the wrist. This is not at all a hammer fist position. The video example is good but there was not much Um Yang. He used the very general name Momtong Makki which simply means middle section. He is performing a An Makki or inside block. This uses the inside of the Ulna to block with. Your description is after someone grabs you. Not the intention with the block in the video. 
In relation, from shoulder to elbow and elbow to wrist are at 45° angles. The ready hand does much the same motion, providing opposition for the blocking arm which is moving from outside your body to inside. The block moves the attacking item across (horizontally) the body. Blocking arm is palm up so again, you are using the inside of the Ulna. *

*The High Block - *looks very similar to an anti-grabbing technique that scrapes the grabbing arm from the bottom.  If someone grabs your hand from the top then your bottom hand goes under your arm and you scrape along your arm to strike the forearm of the grabbing and upward.  The reason the hand travels under the arm is because it's less interference and you need to send the force upward.  To test the concept have someone try to grab your arm and right before they are able to lock the grab, strike their forearm upward.  It's the same principle as the "Low Block" one hand strikes as the other hand escapes.

*There is no scraping motion. The block goes from low to high, blocking arm in front at all times. The video did not show this. His ready hand is on top, blocking the vertical motion of the blocking arm. Again, it is imperative to incorporate the opposite arm, hips, and shoulders. The motion of the blocking arm is vertical. This is hard to visualize when a good twisting motion is incorporated from the hips and shoulders. When the block is finished, the arm position is: palm out using the Ulna to block with, shoulder to elbow 90°, elbow to wrist about 45° or just enough to cover the head. The blocking fist should be vertically in line with the opposite ear. *

*Outside block -  *This looks like Chin-Na to me. Someone grabs your arm so you circle it in order to force their wrist to take a bad position.  The pop at the end allows you to escape the grab and puts your hand in position to counter grab.  The other arm that comes to your chest is actually the position for a loaded punch ready to go.  Basically you escape the grip, control the arm and now you are in position to counter punch.

*He is doing open and closed hand outside blocks. They are a larger motion than the parry to move the wrist or hand. In the sonnal makki (open hand) block the ready hand is across the chest as you describe. In a han sonnal makki (one handed, open hand block) the ready hand would go to the side. This has a lot to do with the stance or position you are in. Back stance is more closed to your opponent so a sonal makki would make more sense as it allows good power generation from back stance. 
This may be where my teaching is different. In a one handed outside block, the ready hand does much the same as in a low block, providing opposition and pulling back to ready. In a two handed block (open in the video), the hands move in unison and the motion of both hands & arms is more circular. In the end they are both moving forward. The opposition comes predominantly from the shoulders. Again, the hips are vitally important to make power. 
*
I like hearing your perspective and how each centers on grabbing the wrist. I look forward to your thoughts.


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## Mitlov (Nov 2, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Your not wrong.
> 
> Tkd is derived from karate, Shotokan in particular. It was bolted together quickly for political purposes at the end of Japan's rule over Korea so was effectively karate with more kicking.
> 
> ...



In my experience, bunkai (looking at alternative purposes for techniques like the classic "blocks") is far more common in the Shotokan scene than the TKD scene.  But with these classic blocks, there's a very good reason for that.  These traditional blocks are least effective against straight punches, and most practical against circular kicks.  Although they share historical roots, modern Shotokan is an art primarily of straight punches, and TKD is an art primarily of circular kicks.  In the TKD scene, blocking a head-level roundhouse kick may not look as formalized as the "basic block," but it's a similar motion.  In Shotokan, once you start really sparring a lot with people who have fast hands, you're going to start looking for other purposes for those blocks, because you're unlikely to use them to successfully block a fluid jab-cross.


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## DaveB (Nov 2, 2018)

skribs said:


> There's something people kept saying to me in threads in the TKD forum "don't think of it as a block."  Well, it MIGHT be able to be used as a grappling technique, or a strike, or a grab break, etc.  But it still CAN be a block.


That was more about you wanting an explanation for specific details that made sense in the context of a block, when the detail you wanted explained was there specifically because it was more than a block.

But yes, they can be used as blocks too.


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## wab25 (Nov 2, 2018)

skribs said:


> Well, it MIGHT be able to be used as a grappling technique, or a strike, or a grab break, etc. But it still CAN be a block.


A screw driver CAN be used to hammer a nail.

I find this very interesting. So many people are looking for 


Mitlov said:


> alternative purposes for techniques like the classic "blocks"



*The classic blocks are the alternative purposes.* The classic blocks are *not *the main application, any more than a screw drivers main application is to hammer nails. There were some fundamental misunderstandings, and we cling to those misunderstandings. We refuse to let those misunderstandings go. We would rather see these arts classified as ineffective, than let go of the misunderstandings.

Funakoshi, the founder of Shotokan, did not teach gedan barai as a down block, he taught it as a throw. It has been pointed out on this forum many times that Funakoshi's applications were done way closer to the opponent, with the "blocking" arm not blocking at all, but throwing, locking and off balancing the opponent. Yet, someone translated "uke" to be "block" and then figured that "middle block" must match "middle punch." Uke is the same word used in Judo for the guy receiving the throw. How is that a "block?" 

This would be like taking a choke taught by Helio Gracie and claiming its a head kick. Obviously, Helio doesn't know what he is talking about... he can't tell a choke from a head kick. That's the same as what is being said about Funakoshi here... that he couldn't tell a throw from a block. 

I find it very interesting that a Kung Fu guy looks at this stuff, and comes up applications much closer to Funakoshi's applications than most Shotokan and TKD guys do. Yet, Funakoshi apparently, did not understand the basic application of his own system... because they are blocks!!!

Its kind of sad that these arts will fade out of existence, due to their ineffectiveness, when the ineffective part is the misunderstanding of what was taught. What was really taught, is now considered some weird alternate stretch, because it does not match the classic misunderstood application.

I expect a few people to not agree with me here. But, I am taking Funakoshi's explanation about how his arts are to be applied. Screw drivers can be used as hammers, but they are much more effective when used to drive screws.


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## Robert Agar-Hutton (Nov 2, 2018)

I'm not teaching Karate Jutsu at the moment as I moved (2+ years ago) to the town where my Karate (Karate-Do) teacher lives and I train with him. But, when I did teach, my own style of Karate - I was most careful to TRY and call moves things like 'rising arm' or 'diagonal arm' and not use the word 'block at all.

To begin with, I believe that you will find that 'block' is not an accurate translation from the Japanese. Then, it's limiting - if you think of a movement as a 'block' then that tends to negate its use as a strike, or a throw or a ....

Of course it depends what you want - if you are training for fun, or for competition, then that's different to if you want self defence or combat... It's all good, it's just all different


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## DaveB (Nov 2, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> In my experience, bunkai (looking at alternative purposes for techniques like the classic "blocks") is far more common in the Shotokan scene than the TKD scene.  But with these classic blocks, there's a very good reason for that.  These traditional blocks are least effective against straight punches, and most practical against circular kicks.  Although they share historical roots, modern Shotokan is an art primarily of straight punches, and TKD is an art primarily of circular kicks.  In the TKD scene, blocking a head-level roundhouse kick may not look as formalized as the "basic block," but it's a similar motion.  In Shotokan, once you start really sparring a lot with people who have fast hands, you're going to start looking for other purposes for those blocks, because you're unlikely to use them to successfully block a fluid jab-cross.



A forearm block isn't really for use against a jab in its classical blocking mode. There's a reason the standard drills for these techniques were against a lunging punch, I.e. in their basic form the core blocking techniques are self defence techniques vs a surprise haymaker etc. The angry roid-rage punch instead of the tactical fighter punch.

For jabs etc you deflect with the preparation hand (the hand that extends at the start of the classical technique), and use the "blocking" hand to follow the retraction and strike or wedge or block the second punch etc.


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## DaveB (Nov 2, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Whoop dee do. Machida is a Bjj black belt from one of the best schools in Brazil and a former sumo champion, so please stop trying to use him as an example of high end karate. He's an example of high end MMA, nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> Show me someone from Karate without a Bjj and Sumo background performing that throw, then I'll be impressed.



Im not quite understanding what you're getting at here. 

If a throw is in the karate syllabus but nobody trains it anymore because schools focus on other stuff, Why wouldn't it make sense to find another art that commonly practices this throw to learn how to use it properly?
And if you do that, are you suggesting that it's no longer a karate technique because he practiced it in another environment?

What if years later the karateka opens a karate dojo teaching only the karate syllabus but now knows how to teach that old throw as well. Is it no longer karate to you?

You realise that all the top karate masters of Okinawa trained under kung fu teachers? And that most of the 20th century masters also trained judo.

Really what you should be saying is that not only is Machida high end karate, but that MMA is just high end Karate as karate was mixing martial arts a century before the ufc.


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## Mitlov (Nov 2, 2018)

DaveB said:


> A forearm block isn't really for use against a jab in its classical blocking mode. There's a reason the standard drills for these techniques were against a lunging punch, I.e. in their basic form the core blocking techniques are self defence techniques vs a surprise haymaker etc. The angry roid-rage punch instead of the tactical fighter punch.
> 
> For jabs etc you deflect with the preparation hand (the hand that extends at the start of the classical technique), and use the "blocking" hand to follow the retraction and strike or wedge or block the second punch etc.



I personally just don't see a stepping punch as a close proxy to any punch you'd encounter in a self-defense situation, from a haymaker to a sucker punch.  To me, the stepping punch (and blocks used against it) feels like a left-over from sword training or bayonet training--useful for teaching basic principles and theories, but not as much practical application to practical empty-handed combat.


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## Mitlov (Nov 2, 2018)

wab25 said:


> A screw driver CAN be used to hammer a nail.
> 
> I find this very interesting. So many people are looking for
> 
> ...



It's not that simple that using uke techniques as blocks was just made up by people after Funakoshi.  Funakoshi himself did teach uke techniques as blocks as well.


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## DaveB (Nov 2, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Frankly, I have serious doubts that that stuff would work against strikes or grabs. I've personally never seen them used against wrestling or grappling, and within grappling itself, we don't use any of that to counter those types of grips. Unfortunately, its more theory than practical application against skilled fighters, which seems to be the hang up for a lot of traditional martial arts.



I imagine a grappled will be looking to improve his position and continue grappling as opposed to freeing a limb to hit with it.

Also if your grappler has learned bjj or wrestling etc why would you expect to see a karate technique?


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## DaveB (Nov 2, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> I personally just don't see a stepping punch as a close proxy to any punch you'd encounter in a self-defense situation, from a haymaker to a sucker punch.  To me, the stepping punch (and blocks used against it) feels like a left-over from sword training or bayonet training--useful for teaching basic principles and theories, but not as much practical application to practical empty-handed combat.



It's not  close proxy, it's a simplified template, but the point was more that the big blocking technique works best against an equally big attack. Like one where you can see the wind up. A non committal attack like a jab warrants an equally non committal defence, matching the energy being directed at you


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## wab25 (Nov 2, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> It's not that simple that using uke techniques as blocks was just made up by people after Funakoshi.  Funakoshi himself did teach uke techniques as blocks as well.


Interesting... that Funakoshi is demonstrating the mid block as a hammer fist to the jaw, followed by a back fist. This is how JowGaWolf saw it. The other "blocks" shown by Funakoshi were used to off balance and or ruin the stance of the opponent. He does not "block" the punch, leaving the other guy unaffected. He is using his "blocks" to enter and off balance the other guy.

You are correct, its not that simple. Yet people simply ignore or marginalize the throws in these moves, as "alternate" applications, when Funakoshi considered them the application. Of coarse these moves have more than one application. I argue that all of the applications for these moves, taught by Funakoshi, should be considered the main applications, not the alternative applications.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 2, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Frankly, I have serious doubts that that stuff would work against strikes or grabs. I've personally never seen them used against wrestling or grappling, and within grappling itself, we don't use any of that to counter those types of grips. Unfortunately, its more theory than practical application against skilled fighters, which seems to be the hang up for a lot of traditional martial arts.


It just depends on the type of grab you are being attacked with.  In Jow Ga I always looked at it as defense against a seizing grab.  BJJ often does a passing grab as the initial grab. Meaning that the initial grab is for a short period of time before initiating another grab.  If some one is going to do a hip throw then they plan to hold onto that arm to transition into a through.  BJJ is not afraid to grab let go and grab again. Until you get the better position.  When I spar against wrestlers, I always worry about what comes after the first grab.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 2, 2018)

skribs said:


> *Down Block - *Used statically you will break your arm.  Used with movement you can catch most kicks and then sweep the leg.
> *Middle Block - *You can go back and forth with this, inside-outside, and quite efficiently block punches
> *High Block* - Very useful for getting their arm out of the way for a strike to the gut.
> 
> I have no issues using these techniques as blocks.


If you can, show me your perspective in a sparring video.  It will help me to visualize your perspective.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 2, 2018)

skribs said:


> Yes.  But if it's being taught specifically as a block...chances are it will work in that application!


One only needs to try to use these techniques as blocks during sparring to find out the difficulties that exists.


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## Balrog (Nov 2, 2018)

There's a terminology miscommunication here.  All blocks are strikes, but not all strikes are blocks.

In a nutshell, a strike is aimed at the body or the head.  A block is aimed at an extremity, such as an arm.  A block, per se, should not simply misdirect an attack.  It should hurt the attacker as well.  If done correctly, that pain will serve as a distraction, allowing us to more easily follow up with a counter of some kind.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Nov 2, 2018)

I got punched in the fist when i tried to use them in play fighting.   Granted it wasn't serious, i also nearly whacked my hand into a cabinet.

edit:  i think it was closer to using my arm as a shield and fighting it left and right, you know like in some knife fighting retention stances?        the USMC combatives one.


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## drop bear (Nov 2, 2018)

You are doing it wrong.

 Find movements that stop punches and make them kata.

Higher success rate that way


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## wab25 (Nov 2, 2018)

Some interesting things from Funakoshi, in his book Karate-Do Kyohan.
http://www.jka-slovenija.si/varovana/Prirocniki/Karate - do kyohan-1.pdf

Notice on page 23, where he talks about Uchi-te. Notice that this is the last of 7 types of blocking that he talks about. The other types are scooping, trapping, pulling, clearing... Then we get to Uchi-te or Striking Block (the classical blocks).



> Striking Block (Uchi-te). The striking block is used in both attack and defense.
> Attack vital points with the sword hand (shuto) or single-knuckle (ippon-ken)
> fist; or, alternatively, strike with the sword hand (shuto) or wrist to knock an
> attacking fist or foot out of the way. Once struck by a well-trained person who
> ...



Notice how Funakoshi says that these blocks are attacks to vital points, or alternatively can be used to knock an attacking fist or foot out of the way. (at the end of the book, a chart is shown of the vital points for these Uchi-te attacks.) Funakoshi says that the *classical blocks are the alternate versions of these techniques.*

Notice step 8 in Heian Shodan:


> 8. FolIowing a block by the left hand of the opponent's right fist attack, the
> point here is to grasp the opponent's right wrist with the left hand and, twisting
> the grasped wrist in an outward direction, to break the opponent's right elbow
> by bringing the right forearm up against it.


This is the "upper block" being used as a joint lock/break. This same concept shows up again and again in the kata, with Funakoshi referring back to this arm break description.

In Bassai step 12 he says:


> Always remember that when the hand is pulled back to the hip after blocking,
> as in this case, one must have the feeling of grasping the opponent and
> pulling him in.


He is saying that in these katas, every block that then returns to chamber should be pulling something with it. This is not Uchi-te then, but one of the other pulling blocks (Hiki-te) he mentioned before the "classical blocks."

Now, go forward and look at the throws section. Notice how they start looking very similar to the "classical blocks" except that they are done as scooping, pulling or trapping blocks, off balancing and moving into the throws.


> Throwing techniques include byobndaoshi, komanage, kubiuxi, kauuoaquruma., teubameqaeehi, yaridama, taniotoshi, udeuia, sakaieuchi, and others." All these techniques should be studied, referring to basic kata.


Essentially, these throws and others should be studied in the basic kata.

Yet somehow these days, we skip the first 6 blocking methods, and ignore the primary purpose of the 7th blocking method, to study the "classic blocks." What Funakoshi considered the alternate version, of his 7th way to receive an attack has now become the "classic blocks" studied in Karate. And when it is suggested to some that these should instead be strikes to the opponent... that is shrugged off as being some variation, when that was Funakoshi's primary application of those "blocks." However, he lists 6 other methods of receiving attacks, before the striking blocks. Reading through his description of the kata, most of the blocks come from the first 6 methods. Surprisingly, using those versions in the kata, allows you to move right into the throws he lists and more.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 2, 2018)

Balrog said:


> All blocks are strikes, ...


The only concern about the 'hard block" is your opponent can borrow your blocking force. For example.

- Your opponent uses a straight punch to your face.
- You use a hard inside out block on him.
- He borrows your blocking force, change his straight punch into a circular hook punch to your head.

If you don't want your opponent's arm to borrow your blocking force. you have to use soft block with grabbing instead.

Soft block - not much force to borrow.
Grabbing - restrict the mobility.


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## skribs (Nov 2, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> One only needs to try to use these techniques as blocks during sparring to find out the difficulties that exists.



I find no difficulty in sparring.  We don't use the full range of motion that you're taught to in the forms.  It kind of ends up looking like all the various blocks from the famous wax-on/wax-off scene from the Karate Kid.  If I'm using my left hand, and someone throws a jab-reverse combo, I can wave my hand to their jab like an inside block (out-to-in block) and then wave out at their cross.  It's not a very big motion.  It's not the typical chamber at your ear, snap all the way through block.  That's just to teach you where the block starts and ends (outside to inside).

We drill these blocks against punches and kicks, and you learn quite quickly how to use them correctly.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 2, 2018)

skribs said:


> I find no difficulty in sparring.  We don't use the full range of motion that you're taught to in the forms.  It kind of ends up looking like all the various blocks from the famous wax-on/wax-off scene from the Karate Kid.  If I'm using my left hand, and someone throws a jab-reverse combo, I can wave my hand to their jab like an inside block (out-to-in block) and then wave out at their cross.  It's not a very big motion.  It's not the typical chamber at your ear, snap all the way through block.  That's just to teach you where the block starts and ends (outside to inside).
> 
> We drill these blocks against punches and kicks, and you learn quite quickly how to use them correctly.


Do you find the low blocks effective against kicks? I've had difficulty with them, and have heard that it carries the risk of one of the bones (I think radius?) breaking. 
@Dirty Dog do you know if there's any scientific/medical validity to that?


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 2, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> ALL moves in TKD use the Yin Yang (Um Yang) principal. Everything has an equal and opposite. This is a common theme in many MA styles and the basis for creating power and speed. It is utilizing the whole body. There were several times in the video that the movements were very segmented and the corresponding body parts were not in unison.


I took it as he was just explaining the concept of it without getting into the details of it. It's sort of how I cover things when I'm spoon feeding people Kung Fu.  I recently put in a video of me working with a student on the application of the technique and I only decided to take one part of the technique to cover. 



dvcochran said:


> You have a very specific approach to using a low block, similar to kali's idea of attacking whatever is closest. In TKD a low block is not a scraping movement aimed solely at the hand. It is simply blocking or moving anything that is attacking you low. The common example is a strike towards the groin.


Most strikes to the groin are kicks and if you aren't careful then you'll break your arm trying to block kicks that low.  The biggest risk which made me think that it wasn't a block is that to block like that leaves your head exposed so I can make a kick look low, then have it rise and kick you in the head.  If you were to try and use that low block as it's shown in a real fight, then you'll get knocked out. You would have to abandon the concept to use it that way in application.  However if you keep the same concept that I mention, then you can perform the technique almost exactly as you would in the form.

This is more in line with how I see it in Jow Ga Kung Fu.  You can literally see the same shape of movement of that TKD low block that is done in the form.





This is also in line with what I know of "low block" which is really not a block but a strike.  The reason why is because he moves out of the way of the kick and then he punishes the  offending leg.  The first downward block that he did on top of the shine will break your arm.  I'm 100% sure of that as I almost broken mine like that when I screwed up on the "low block".  I came down on the kick instead of moving out of the way first and then strike.  It was just a natural reaction when I did it.  It blocked the kick but I paid a heavy price.
I wouldn't recommend it unless your arms are like solid steel and your opponents shins are like wet noodles. 






This is an interesting one.  I don't know if it works but it's definitely not a block





On a personal note.  I would never intentionally use a "low block" to block a kick like this guy does.






By the way.  it's going to be a long discussion between you and me.  So I guess I'll just go down the list and hit the next "block" once we juice everything out of the low block.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 2, 2018)

wab25 said:


> A screw driver CAN be used to hammer a nail.


Not always true. Which is why most people don't use screw drivers to hammer nails.  Even when the screwdriver has been altered to make it a "better hammer" it still under performs.   This would be like saying using the right technique against a given technique.






This is why a hammer is a hammer.  The right technique against a given technique





Still a hammer





Think of it this way.  If you had a screw driver in a fight would you hammer or stab your attacker?
If you had hammer in a fight would you stab or hammer?


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 2, 2018)

skribs said:


> I find no difficulty in sparring.  We don't use the full range of motion that you're taught to in the forms.  It kind of ends up looking like all the various blocks from the famous wax-on/wax-off scene from the Karate Kid.  If I'm using my left hand, and someone throws a jab-reverse combo, I can wave my hand to their jab like an inside block (out-to-in block) and then wave out at their cross.  It's not a very big motion.  It's not the typical chamber at your ear, snap all the way through block.  That's just to teach you where the block starts and ends (outside to inside).
> 
> We drill these blocks against punches and kicks, and you learn quite quickly how to use them correctly.


Can you get some sparring video of this? I would like to see the approach you take.


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## Hanzou (Nov 2, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I imagine a grappled will be looking to improve his position and continue grappling as opposed to freeing a limb to hit with it.



There's also a good amount of grip fighting/stripping in grappling as well. Allowing someone to beat you at grips is a fast way to end up losing the battle.



> Also if your grappler has learned bjj or wrestling etc why would you expect to see a karate technique?



It's about using what works. We don't care where it comes from as long as it does the job.


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## Hanzou (Nov 2, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> It just depends on the type of grab you are being attacked with.



Those movements aren't even used for defense or blocking in modern striking. They're archaic holdovers that are being trained just for the sake of tradition and now practitioners are attempting to find expanded meaning on said archaic movements. If Karatekas or TKDers were serious about seeing if any of those movements were useful for breaking grips, they'd head over to a Judo or Bjj club and actually *test* them against resisting opponents.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 2, 2018)

Just throwing this in here to add some more perspectives










Jingle Bell Tree.  Personally I just rather step off center.  The interesting thing is that he keeps saying that he would rather for you to break your arm.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 2, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Those movements aren't even used for defense or blocking in modern striking. They're archaic holdovers that are being trained just for the sake of tradition and now practitioners are attempting to find expanded meaning on said archaic movements. If Karatekas or TKDers were serious about seeing if any of those movements were useful for breaking grips, they'd head over to a Judo or Bjj club and actually *test* them against resisting opponents.


Would it count if I try the techniques in free sparring? Or does it have to be a Karateka or TKDers?


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## dvcochran (Nov 2, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I took it as he was just explaining the concept of it without getting into the details of it. It's sort of how I cover things when I'm spoon feeding people Kung Fu.  I recently put in a video of me working with a student on the application of the technique and I only decided to take one part of the technique to cover.
> 
> Most strikes to the groin are kicks and if you aren't careful then you'll break your arm trying to block kicks that low.  The biggest risk which made me think that it wasn't a block is that to block like that leaves your head exposed so I can make a kick look low, then have it rise and kick you in the head.  If you were to try and use that low block as it's shown in a real fight, then you'll get knocked out. You would have to abandon the concept to use it that way in application.  However if you keep the same concept that I mention, then you can perform the technique almost exactly as you would in the form.
> 
> ...


If you look at the motion of most the low blocks in your videos closely they are not coming straight down, they are going down and crossing. This way you do not come down on the shin bone directly. I'm not sure how you can "punish" the leg and not break your arm but break it with a block, assuming technique comes into play? We call the block in the third video a scissor or crossing block. I'm not sure what the point of the last video is. The guy speaking reminds me of the Sensei at Cobra Kai.


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## dvcochran (Nov 2, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not always true. Which is why most people don't use screw drivers to hammer nails.  Even when the screwdriver has been altered to make it a "better hammer" it still under performs.   This would be like saying using the right technique against a given technique.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You totally missed the comment. CAN is in caps. It doesn't say SHALL. Totally different meaning.


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## skribs (Nov 3, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Do you find the low blocks effective against kicks? I've had difficulty with them, and have heard that it carries the risk of one of the bones (I think radius?) breaking.
> @Dirty Dog do you know if there's any scientific/medical validity to that?



If your forearm blocks their shin or their foot on a roundhouse kick, it will hurt your forearm.

If your forearm strikes their calf on a front kick or side kick, or if you catch their thigh on a roundhouse kick, then it will hurt or trap them.


----------



## skribs (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Can you get some sparring video of this? I would like to see the approach you take.



Unfortunately the times I am sparring, the people I'd ask to take a video are sparring too!

I'll see if I can, but probably not any time soon.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 3, 2018)

skribs said:


> If your forearm blocks their shin or their foot on a roundhouse kick, it will hurt your forearm.
> 
> If your forearm strikes their calf on a front kick or side kick, or if you catch their thigh on a roundhouse kick, then it will hurt or trap them.


If blocking the shin results in a broken forearm, that sounds like too much of a risk for me when there are easier ways to nullify a roundhouse kick.


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## DaveB (Nov 3, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> It's about using what works. We don't care where it comes from as long as it does the job.



I don't know if it would be ineffective in ground grappling or against a professional grappler, but in clinch/standing grappling it works fine.

People who are taught in a different way won't magically know something just because it works.


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## DaveB (Nov 3, 2018)

drop bear said:


> You are doing it wrong.
> 
> Find movements that stop punches and make them kata.
> 
> Higher success rate that way


That's what they did.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> If you look at the motion of most the low blocks in your videos closely they are not coming straight down, they are going down and crossing


Correct, but for me I've found that this isn't as easy as it sounds because of timing.  Kicks rise fast and most of the time the arm will be late getting their.  It's safer to just move out of the way first and then strike the leg as it is returning back to it's owner.  The purpose of the third video is to just show the timing because he gets the timing of the technique wrong which is why he's constantly saying that he would rather you break your arm /hand than get hit in the vital areas (kidney, groin)

When using the technique I've learn that it only works at a certain height.  Stand up too tall and you'll mess up the timing because the technique is too far away to reach the kicking leg.  This causes the person to lean over in an effort to reach the kick and causes a downward motion.  The other thing is that you have to move sideways and out of the way of the kick first before trying to strike the leg. 

As simple as the motion is for this technique I don't remember seeing this technique used by many people except for beginners and demos.  I understand the concept of it because there is a nerve on the side of the shin near the ankle and if you can strike that then, it's a big advantage provided that you can time the technique correctly.



dvcochran said:


> You totally missed the comment. CAN is in caps. It doesn't say SHALL. Totally different meaning.


I didn't miss it,  That's why I showed a guy sinking a nail with a screw driver because he CAN do that.  



skribs said:


> Unfortunately the times I am sparring, the people I'd ask to take a video are sparring too!
> 
> I'll see if I can, but probably not any time soon.


Thanks.  I'm curious to see if you have an approach to the technique that I haven't thought of.



kempodisciple said:


> If blocking the shin results in a broken forearm, that sounds like too much of a risk for me when there are easier ways to nullify a roundhouse kick.


This is why you use 2 arms to block a roundhouse kick. it helps to disperse that impact so that one arm isn't taking all of that force.  In terms of a low block, there is no option to use two arms with a low block.  Force vs Force and the forearm will lose against the shin all the time, with the exception of someone with a weak kick and bad kicking technique.  Assuming that most people who use a roundhouse kick in a fight are good enough to use it in a fight.


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## DaveB (Nov 3, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Those movements aren't even used for defense or blocking in modern striking. They're archaic holdovers that are being trained just for the sake of tradition and now practitioners are attempting to find expanded meaning on said archaic movements. If Karatekas or TKDers were serious about seeing if any of those movements were useful for breaking grips, they'd head over to a Judo or Bjj club and actually *test* them against resisting opponents.



Lol, what makes you think we don't?

Iain Abernathy is probably the world's leading bunkai exponent and he trains Judo under a world class judoka. 

You have such a narrow perspective but you insist on claiming that what you've seen is all there is.


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## DaveB (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Just throwing this in here to add some more perspectives
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for finding this, hopefully it should clear up the questions about how these blocks occur in fighting.


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## DaveB (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Correct, but for me I've found that this isn't as easy as it sounds because of timing.  Kicks rise fast and most of the time the arm will be late getting their.  It's safer to just move out of the way first and then strike the leg as it is returning back to it's owner.  The purpose of the third video is to just show the timing because he gets the timing of the technique wrong which is why he's constantly saying that he would rather you break your arm /hand than get hit in the vital areas (kidney, groin)
> 
> When using the technique I've learn that it only works at a certain height.  Stand up too tall and you'll mess up the timing because the technique is too far away to reach the kicking leg.  This causes the person to lean over in an effort to reach the kick and causes a downward motion.  The other thing is that you have to move sideways and out of the way of the kick first before trying to strike the leg.
> 
> ...



Karate technique is based on southern kungfu. In southern kungfu one blocks a kick with their legs not the hands. 

In other words the low block was never meant for blocking kicks. As someone pointed out earlier it is a striking block. If you use it on a kick you are meant to be punching the thigh muscle or shin bone to hurt them and disable the left.


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## Hanzou (Nov 3, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Lol, what makes you think we don't?
> 
> Iain Abernathy is probably the world's leading bunkai exponent and he trains Judo under a world class judoka.
> 
> You have such a narrow perspective but you insist on claiming that what you've seen is all there is.



You got some fight footage of Abernathy to back that up?

"Bunkai" doesn't cut the mustard. I want to see Abernathy consistently stripping Judo or Bjj grips with karate blocks while those guys are legitimately applying resistance.

Again, if that was an efficient way of grip stripping, we'd be using it in Gi grappling. We don't, and there's a good reason why we don't.

Edit:
Here, I'll help you out:


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## Hanzou (Nov 3, 2018)

DaveB said:


> People who are taught in a different way won't magically know something just because it works.



True, which is why the impetus is on the student to seek out those answers and not let dogma and style purity cloud their martial progress. If someone else already has a round peg, just take their peg, instead of trying to make your square peg fit into a round hole.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Thank you for finding this, hopefully it should clear up the questions about how these blocks occur in fighting.


No problem.  I like videos like this because it helps to remind me not to make things to complicated when trying to understand a technique.  Techniques should make sense in application (meaning actually using it vs a demo theory of application).  



DaveB said:


> In southern kungfu one blocks a kick with their legs not the hands.


To me this is logically safer especially with low kicks and kicks with the groin.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Jingle Bell Tree.  Personally I just rather step off center.  The interesting thing is that he keeps saying that he would rather for you to break your arm.



You don't break your arm, you check the leg, or you make a shield by bringing down your elbow and connecting it with your raised knee and leg if it's heading towards your mid-section. Down blocking with your arm isn't going to stop a powerful low kick, and as the "Kung Fu master" says, will probably wreck your arm.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 3, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Do you find the low blocks effective against kicks? I've had difficulty with them, and have heard that it carries the risk of one of the bones (I think radius?) breaking.
> @Dirty Dog do you know if there's any scientific/medical validity to that?



It's not exactly the sort of thing you can do double blind tests on...
Every block, and every strike, has the risk of breaking something. It's fairly small, but it's there. Personally, I broke the 4th metacarpal in my left hand, but that was a screwed up block. I blocked a front kick with a low block, but I was also blocking a punch from another opponent (multiple opponent sparring) and I got my hand in front of the kick instead of striking it from the side. 
In the classic low block, where you're basically doing a hammer fist strike at the attacking limb, the impact should be on the fist or close to it. That would impact on the ulna. 
As for effectiveness.... depends what you mean by a low kick. If you're trying to block a kick to your thigh with this, it isn't going to be your highest percentage move. But for a kick to the abdomen or lower ribs? Sure, they work just fine.

The other thing to remember is that a low block isn't a low block. That's just a name we give to aid in teaching. Every block is a strike. Every strike is a block. Lots of them are also grab releases or throws, too.
Techniques aren't. 
They're just ways to teach movement, and if you break it down, a "low block" is also, for example, a high cross-body block. Picture this: I am facing an opponent. They throw a straight punch at my face with their left hand. I bring my left hand up and across, deflecting their punch to my right. That is exactly the same movement made when chambering a low block. And if you've been practicing low blocks properly, this movement will have become just as automatic as the low block portion.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 3, 2018)

skribs said:


> If your forearm blocks their shin or their foot on a roundhouse kick, it will hurt your forearm.



Really? Then how come I've blocked roundhouses with my forearm for 50 years without an injury? 
You do know that you do not have to stop the movement of the kick with your block, right? All you need to do is slow it down or redirect it enough to keep it from doing you any injury.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

Had the kick been at full strength, with the intent to harm, then it would have easily broken my arm.  IMPORTANT NOTE:  My sparring partner had conditioned shins..


Dirty Dog said:


> All you need to do is slow it down or redirect it enough to keep it from doing you any injury.


This is a different concept to the low block as most teach it.   Slowing down = interruption of power,  Redirection = pushing where the strike is most weak.

This is not the same concept in the TKD low block as many teach it.


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## skribs (Nov 3, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> If blocking the shin results in a broken forearm, that sounds like too much of a risk for me when there are easier ways to nullify a roundhouse kick.



You use your feet to put you in a better spot.  If you're right next to them, then they can't deliver the full power into their foot or shin.



Dirty Dog said:


> Really? Then how come I've blocked roundhouses with my forearm for 50 years without an injury?
> You do know that you do not have to stop the movement of the kick with your block, right? All you need to do is slow it down or redirect it enough to keep it from doing you any injury.



I think the purpose of this thread is the traditional blocks as taught.  Are you using the typical down-block taught in most Taekwondo schools?  I'm curious how you're doing this.

I've blocked a few roundhouse kicks and while I never had my arm broken, I've taken some pretty good hits that made me rethink the idea.  And these were blue belts that were kicking me, not black belts.  And these were with pads.  But using the same arm motion but with a step into my opponent, I can hit at the hinge instead of the payload and it's much more effective at catching the kick.

Personally I like to palm strike their foot when they roundhouse kick to me.  It hurts them more than it hurts me.


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## skribs (Nov 3, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You don't break your arm, you check the leg, or you make a shield by bringing down your elbow and connecting it with your raised knee and leg if it's heading towards your mid-section. Down blocking with your arm isn't going to stop a powerful low kick, and as the "Kung Fu master" says, will probably wreck your arm.



I couldn't watch the first video, because he really should have a partner if he's going to show how these blocks work.

The second video, at 5:30, you can see him leaning forward to attack the kick above the knee, instead of blocking down at the shin.  This is kind of what I'm talking about (although instead of leaning in I'd slide in or step in).  There's just not that much power in the thighs as compared to the feet.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Just throwing this in here to add some more perspectives
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Focusing just on the mindset of that guy in the video, why does he think people should have to choose between breaking an arm or a rib or a knee? If I thought blocking a kick made someone choose, I would be spending all my time either trying to find a different way to block a kick, or practicing kicks so that I can break their limbs before they break mine.


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## WaterGal (Nov 3, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Do you find the low blocks effective against kicks? I've had difficulty with them, and have heard that it carries the risk of one of the bones (I think radius?) breaking.
> @Dirty Dog do you know if there's any scientific/medical validity to that?



I use low block all the time in TKD sparring to block mid-level techinques. But IMO the key is to get in close when they go to strike, so you're taking an extended knee to your upper arm, not a foot to your forearm. If you block their foot or hand, you're taking the full brunt of their power, the part of their body with the most momentum. (Which *is* a good way to get injured.) If you can block closer to their torso - ideally at or above the knee/elbow - their hit will have much less power. That's the reason for all the "step into front stance and block" in TMA forms, I think. It also, if you're doing a sparring style that allows grabbing, puts you in a better position for that.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Focusing just on the mindset of that guy in the video, why does he think people should have to choose between breaking an arm or a rib or a knee?


 I'm not sure.

For me personally, if those word came out of my mouth, then I would either assume that I don't understand the technique, that I'm using it in the wrong context, or that my timing for the technique is horrible.  I would try to find a better option both for using the technique (which may or may not be used against a kick) and a better option for getting out of the way the kick.   

The only time choose like that is with knife defense.  I just assume I'm going to get stabbed and that I need to control how many times I get stabbed / cut, and where I get stabbed and/cut (provided that I don't have something to use as a weapon).



WaterGal said:


> I use low block all the time in TKD sparring to block mid-level techinques. But IMO the key is to get in close when they go to strike, so you're taking an extended knee to your upper arm, not a foot to your forearm.


This makes sense to me and I would try this without hesitation, simply because I've willingly taken shots to my midsection from round house kicks by advancing forward while the kick is coming.  The impact was significantly less to the point where I didn't bother to block.  It still knocked me around a little but it impact was tolerant.  It left me with 2 punching hands while my opponent couldn't punch because he was doing a round house and he couldn't retreat because he was on one leg.



WaterGal said:


> If you can block closer to their torso - ideally at or above the knee/elbow - their hit will have much less power. That's the reason for all the "step into front stance and block" in TMA forms, I think. It also, if you're doing a sparring style that allows grabbing, puts you in a better position for that.


Awesome.  Do you use the low block against a front kick?


----------



## DaveB (Nov 3, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> True, which is why the impetus is on the student to seek out those answers and not let dogma and style purity cloud their martial progress. If someone else already has a round peg, just take their peg, instead of trying to make your square peg fit into a round hole.


And since it's up to the student nobody can make the claim that "they" would use it if it worked.


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## Hanzou (Nov 3, 2018)

DaveB said:


> And since it's up to the student nobody can make the claim that "they" would use it if it worked.



I was talking about Judo, sport wrestlers, MMA, and Bjj practitioners. We're more than happy to absorb an outside technique if it *works*.

If Karateka and TKDers which to use inefficient and archaic techniques, that's their business.


----------



## DaveB (Nov 3, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You got some fight footage of Abernathy to back that up?
> 
> "Bunkai" doesn't cut the mustard. I want to see Abernathy consistently stripping Judo or Bjj grips with karate blocks while those guys are legitimately applying resistance.
> 
> ...



I'm supposed to back up Ian Abernathy's training lineage with fight footage?

Sorry dude, nobody cares what you want to see.

Also, when it's applied as a grip escape, which is less than other applications, it's more commonly applied as a wrist grab escape than a sleeve grab. Not sure how it fares against the sleeve.

That being said this kind of thing is trained and applied in sparring all the time in karate classes. Much like the inner and outer forearm blocks.
The two handed escapes you showed look vulnerable to face punching. Do you have any footage of them working consistently against resistance when the resistance can punch your face ?


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## DaveB (Nov 3, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I was talking about Judo, sport wrestlers, MMA, and Bjj practitioners. We're more than happy to absorb an outside technique if it *works*.
> 
> If Karateka and TKDers which to use inefficient and archaic techniques, that's their business.


Sigh. 

I think I here bullshido calling you. They say that unlike everyone else they'd love to hear more.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Also, when it's applied as a grip escape, which is less than other applications, it's more commonly applied as a wrist grab escape than a sleeve grab. Not sure how it fares against the sleeve.


 This is going to be the case for a lot of things.  Gi vs no Gi.  Sleeves vs no Sleeves.  Choking me out with a Gi is impossible simply because I don't wear a Gi.  Other methods of exist.  Lapel grabs won't work on me either because I don't wear things with a lapel.

Gi may translate to Coat or Jacket but I guess that depends on how strong that material is.


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## FriedRice (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> These so call blocks also don't make sense when I'm thinking about blocking a TKD kick.



Where is this guy located? I want to fight him. His "AAYY YAAA" just woke up my nephew and now the kids is crying like crazy.


----------



## skribs (Nov 3, 2018)

WaterGal said:


> I use low block all the time in TKD sparring to block mid-level techinques. But IMO the key is to get in close when they go to strike, so you're taking an extended knee to your upper arm, not a foot to your forearm. If you block their foot or hand, you're taking the full brunt of their power, the part of their body with the most momentum. (Which *is* a good way to get injured.) If you can block closer to their torso - ideally at or above the knee/elbow - their hit will have much less power. That's the reason for all the "step into front stance and block" in TMA forms, I think. It also, if you're doing a sparring style that allows grabbing, puts you in a better position for that.



I think part of the issue here is that people see these techniques, then they watch movies where the choreography is designed for form over function, then get kicked in the arm and think "that doesn't work."  



JowGaWolf said:


> This is going to be the case for a lot of things. Gi vs no Gi. Sleeves vs no Sleeves. Choking me out with a Gi is impossible simply because I don't wear a Gi. Other methods of exist. Lapel grabs won't work on me either because I don't wear things with a lapel.



What if I choke you out with my gi?


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 3, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I'm supposed to back up Ian Abernathy's training lineage with fight footage?
> 
> Sorry dude, nobody cares what you want to see.



Yeah, why would you need to provide evidence for your wild claims right? 



> Also, when it's applied as a grip escape, which is less than other applications, it's more commonly applied as a wrist grab escape than a sleeve grab. Not sure how it fares against the sleeve.
> 
> That being said this kind of thing is trained and applied in sparring all the time in karate classes. Much like the inner and outer forearm blocks.
> The two handed escapes you showed look vulnerable to face punching. Do you have any footage of them working consistently against resistance when the resistance can punch your face ?



LoL! How silly. Yeah, you're vulnerable to punches if you're trying to strip a grip. The goal is to get out of the grip, not to protect your face. If you want to protect your face, don't worry about the grip and protect your face until they stop punching you.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Lapel grabs won't work on me either because I don't wear things with a lapel.



You don't wear shirts? A shirt collar works just as well as a lapel.


----------



## DaveB (Nov 3, 2018)

A useful drill for those interested.


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## DaveB (Nov 3, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, why would you need to provide evidence for your wild claims right?
> 
> 
> 
> LoL! How silly. Yeah, you're vulnerable to punches if you're trying to strip a grip. The goal is to get out of the grip, not to protect your face. If you want to protect your face, don't worry about the grip and protect your face until they stop punching you.



Hmmm.

Ok. 

Well most people don't stop punching until you're unconscious or dead. I think we've found bjj's fatal flaw, the old grab n punch.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 3, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You don't wear shirts? A shirt collar works just as well as a lapel.


It won't works against $10 T shirt. You may have to dig your fingers through your opponent's collar all the way to his short sleeve.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 3, 2018)

DaveB said:


> A useful drill for those interested.



That's some Toshindo-level stuff right there.



DaveB said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> Ok.
> 
> Well most people don't stop punching until you're unconscious or dead. I think we've found bjj's fatal flaw, the old grab n punch.



Hey, we all can't be Karate ninjas like Abernethy.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 3, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It won't works against $10 T shirt. You may have to dig your fingers through your opponent's collar all the way to his short sleeve.








You'll be fine.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

skribs said:


> What if I choke you out with my gi?


That would be an option.


----------



## DaveB (Nov 3, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> That's some Toshindo-level stuff right there.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, we all can't be Karate ninjas like Abernethy.


Can't all be obnoxious mma groupies either.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 3, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Can't all be obnoxious mma groupies either.



I'm an obnoxious Bjj groupie! Get it right please.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You don't wear shirts? A shirt collar works just as well as a lapel.


I wear a lot of t-shirts and non-collar shirts.  When I do wear a shirt with a collar I tend to button down my collars. In terms of my ability to Chin Na, someone grabbing me my neck or shoulder area would probably encourage me to grab your hand and make sure that you can't remove it from my shoulder or my neck.  In short, I don't have to go chasing that hand because you have just given it to me.  Grabbing my jacket like a Gi would give you a better and safer option.  My shirts also rip easily.  The reason I know this is because I've ripped multiple shirts simply by taking them off.

Companies don't make shirts as durable as they used to.  I own t-shirts that are more than 30 years old.  I use them to work around the yard.  No rips.  You can probably choke me and drag me down the street with the old shirts.  But the new shirts? They won't last.  
Exhibit 1:
Shirt rip during fight.





Exhibit 2:
Ripped shirt





Case closed - Kids ripping shirts?   





They just don't make high quality durable shirts anymore.  Every video that I've seen that tries to address the challenge of using a T-shirt to choke someone says "bunch up the t-shirt" then they take a lot of effort to do it in a demo, that I just don't see it happening while in a street fight.  The time that you take to use two hands to bunch up a t-shirt is going to put the BJJ person in danger, because the hands are no longer trying to control anything.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It won't works against $10 T shirt. You may have to dig your fingers through your opponent's collar all the way to his short sleeve.


It doesn't get any better with a $20 or $30 t-shirt.  They just don't make clothing as durable as they used to.  The problem with durable clothing is that it lasts.  So manufacturers will make clothing that rips because they know you will go and buy another one.  I have 6 ripped t-shirts,  and it doesn't matter which company I buy from because I know that company is playing the same game too.


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## dvcochran (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Correct, but for me I've found that this isn't as easy as it sounds because of timing.  Kicks rise fast and most of the time the arm will be late getting their.  It's safer to just move out of the way first and then strike the leg as it is returning back to it's owner.  The purpose of the third video is to just show the timing because he gets the timing of the technique wrong which is why he's constantly saying that he would rather you break your arm /hand than get hit in the vital areas (kidney, groin)
> 
> When using the technique I've learn that it only works at a certain height.  Stand up too tall and you'll mess up the timing because the technique is too far away to reach the kicking leg.  This causes the person to lean over in an effort to reach the kick and causes a downward motion.  The other thing is that you have to move sideways and out of the way of the kick first before trying to strike the leg.
> 
> ...



I have a hard time processing how moving the whole body out of the way of a strike low and to the front is faster than moving just one segment, the blocking arm. My arm reaches well below my groin so it is not necessary to adjust my stance. Why would I lean into an attack unless there was an offensive purpose? Leaning in to "reach" with a block makes no sense. This is something we often have to train new students not to do.  
 I think you expect every block to be totally debilitating which is incorrect. A low block may only slow an attack to take the sting out. If that is the case, it is important to have a counter after the block if necessary.
I use a low block all the time when sparring. There are many, many variations. For example, one of my favorites is to "help" a kick go past me. Using my low hand to block or carry the kicking motion past its target. Effective and usually knocks your opponent off balance. 
I am not familiar with the nerve you mention so I cannot speak to that. I am not thinking about pressure points when doing a low block. IF you really want to get an opponents attention and slow their frontal attack, use a downward elbow on the shin a few times. 
I have used two hands to block a roundhouse kick but it is not the norm as it is not necessary and you tend to set your body when you block like that. There needs to be a reason to do it. 
In terms of getting out of the way of a kick, it happens much more often with a roundhouse because often times the only body part you have to move is the head. 
Sure you can use two hands on a low block. Just like reinforcing a middle block, you use the non-blocking hand to reinforce the wrist/hand. 
I am certain the shin bone is stronger than the Ulna in an isolated load test. But that is not the environment we use them in.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You'll be fine.


See that's what I'm talking about  that "grabbing a bunch of material" stuff.  Where he is grabbing is exactly where my t-shirts are ripped. So someone is going to be able to bunch up a shirt while fighting?  Unless you have a "shirt bunching technique", I don't think it's going to be that easy with all of the movement that comes with fighting


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## Hanzou (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> See that's what I'm talking about  that "grabbing a bunch of material" stuff.  Where he is grabbing is exactly where my t-shirts are ripped. So someone is going to be able to bunch up a shirt while fighting?  Unless you have a "shirt bunching technique", I don't think it's going to be that easy with all of the movement that comes with fighting



Look a little more closely; You have control over the head and the body in the closed guard before you execute the choke. And honestly, if your shirt rips to where you can't grab it in that fashion, there's hundreds of other submissions you can do instead. However, let's not be silly here, everyone's shirt isn't going to rip everytime it's grabbed.

No-gi grappling ftw!


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I have a hard time processing how moving the whole body out of the way of a strike low and to the front is faster than moving just one segment, the blocking arm.


It takes a shorter distance to move the body than it does the arm.  In terms of math and measurement, you arm is going to travel a longer distance to move out of the way using the feet only takes a few inches 3 or for inches can get you out of the way of most stuff or at least into a less powerful zone.  Front kicks travel in one direction which makes it easier to move the body to escape the kick.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Look a little more closely; You have control over the head and the body in the closed guard before you execute the choke.


I saw one guy explaining a technique and another guy doing nothing to resist it.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> It takes a shorter distance to move the body than it does the arm.  In terms of math and measurement, you arm is going to travel a longer distance to move out of the way using the feet only takes a few inches 3 or for inches can get you out of the way of most stuff or at least into a less powerful zone.  Front kicks travel in one direction which makes it easier to move the body to escape the kick.


The amount of energy to move the total body mass is so much higher it doesn't add up. If I am kicking at your abdominal area for example, 3" of movement will not get you out of the way of the attack. Not to mention the acceleration required just to get the mass moving versus the arm.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I think you expect every block to be totally debilitating which is incorrect. A low block may only slow an attack to take the sting out. If that is the case, it is important to have a counter after the block if necessary.


That's not what I think.  I think blocking techniques shouldn't put you in a worse position.  If that happens then my guess would be that the wrong block was used for the situation.




dvcochran said:


> I use a low block all the time when sparring. There are many, many variations. For example, one of my favorites is to "help" a kick go past me. Using my low hand to block or carry the kicking motion past its target. Effective and usually knocks your opponent off balance.
> I am not familiar with the nerve you mention so I cannot speak to that. I am not thinking about pressure points when doing a low block. IF you really want to get an opponents attention and slow their frontal attack, use a downward elbow on the shin a few times.
> I have used two hands to block a roundhouse kick but it is not the norm as it is not necessary and you tend to set your body when you block like that. There needs to be a reason to do it.
> In terms of getting out of the way of a kick, it happens much more often with a roundhouse because often times the only body part you have to move is the head.
> ...


  I would have to see what you are talking about in order to comment on this one, because as it stand without me knowing what you are looking at, it sounds like the complete opposite of a lot of what I do


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> The amount of energy to move the total body mass is so much higher it doesn't add up. If I am kicking at your abdominal area for example, 3" of movement will not get you out of the way of the attack.


 It's enough for me to get out of the way.  I can choose to move to the side to evade, Forward to jam, or backwards.  I do it all the time.  I'll put it like this.  I can roll a front kick off my stomach, hook the kicking leg and throw a person backwards.  I've demonstrated this multiple times giving people free front kicks to my stomach.  The front kick is awesome and I love dealing it out because most people don't know how to deal with them.  However, that thrill quickly vanishes when someone knows how to deal with them.   For me moving my body is a better.  Moving my body off center or at an angle forces the kicker to reposition when their movement is most restricted.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's enough for me to get out of the way.  I can choose to move to the side to evade, Forward to jam, or backwards.  I do it all the time.  I'll put it like this.  I can roll a front kick off my stomach, hook the kicking leg and throw a person backwards.  I've demonstrated this multiple times giving people free front kicks to my stomach.  The front kick is awesome and I love dealing it out because most people don't know how to deal with them.  However, that thrill quickly vanishes when someone knows how to deal with them.   For me moving my body is a better.  Moving my body off center or at an angle forces the kicker to reposition when their movement is most restricted.


All that is great and most of us do the same. That does nothing to answer how moving 3" keeps me from getting hammered in the abdomen. My head, maybe.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> It takes a shorter distance to move the body than it does the arm.  In terms of math and measurement, you arm is going to travel a longer distance to move out of the way using the feet only takes a few inches 3 or for inches can get you out of the way of most stuff or at least into a less powerful zone.  Front kicks travel in one direction which makes it easier to move the body to escape the kick.


Whoever put disagree, would you like for me to show you the math?

If your kick will only go 2 inches into my body, then I only need to shuffle 3 inches to get out of the way.  My arm will travel more than 3 inches to move from a high guard position to a low block position.  It's literally math.  What is the distance that a front kick travels into the body?  What ever that distance is, you only need to travel 1or 2 inches more. to get out of the way.  Am I the only one that knows this?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> All that is great and most of us do the same. That does nothing to answer how moving 3" keeps me from getting hammered in the abdomen. My head, maybe.


Do this the next time you are in class.  Take a punching and have someone to do front kicks.  Allow them to hit it a few times.  Then when you think you have a good idea of the distance that the kicks travels then move the pad 3 inches back right before the kick lands. Comeback to this thread and tell me what happened.  As easy as it is to do this with a mit, it's easier to do it with the body because you can control the distance with your stance.  If you can move your head 3 inches to get out of the way, then why don't you think it works the same way with the body my moving your feet.  Just shuffle in the direction you need to move in.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

One thing about me.  I often don't claim things that I can't do myself or don't already have a video of me doing it.  I'll see if I have a video of me shuffling only a few inches to get my body out of the way of something.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> All that is great and most of us do the same. That does nothing to answer how moving 3" keeps me from getting hammered in the abdomen. My head, maybe.


Just for you. Thank goodness I didn't have to find a sparring partner for this.  I'm short on sparring partners these days. lol. 
Here is what I'm talking about.  This one wasn't against a front kick but it shows the same concept.

You are going to see 2 things.

Low Block - Which for me is a strike.
3 inch shuffle to get out of the way of a kick.
You actually see me get out of the way long before my "low block" reaches the knee.  My "low block" is opened hand because I didn't want to strike the knee with my fist.

So before Hanzou "bashes me"  just kidding.  But seriously before the question of "I was already out of range comes up.  Please take note of where my low "block" lands It lands on his knee.  I have short arms so I'm well within range to be kicked.  The second tell is that you can see the kick hit my shirt.  

Now for the speed of a low block vs the speed of foot movement.  My feet begin to evade long before my low block begins.  I was already out of the way the way as my low block landed.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

Here's a special one.  It looks like a low block but I was actually trying out one of the big punches that you see me do. The Sifu of the school called time just as we were attacking so we both cut the engines off.   I'm targeting the inside of that thigh because it's easier and safer to interrupt a kick from the inside.  You can actually see his foot slide.


----------



## skribs (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I saw one guy explaining a technique and another guy doing nothing to resist it.



That's gonna happen in most such demonstrations.  There's not enough time in real time to discuss it if you do it full speed against a resisting opponent.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Just for you. Thank goodness I didn't have to find a sparring partner for this.  I'm short on sparring partners these days. lol.
> Here is what I'm talking about.  This one wasn't against a front kick but it shows the same concept.
> 
> You are going to see 2 things.
> ...


The fact that your hand was all the way up the leg to the knee is telling me it was either performed incorrectly or way too late or both. Didn't mean that to sound rude.


----------



## FriedRice (Nov 3, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It won't works against $10 T shirt. You may have to dig your fingers through your opponent's collar all the way to his short sleeve.



It's easy to choke someone out with his own T-shirt. That collar is strong enough to not rip.  A $10 T-shirt is a pretty good one in quality. 

It's not the T-shirt that's choking you, mainly.....it's mostly my forearm that cutting off the blood flow...or worse, if I go for an air choke and possibly crush your trachea.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

skribs said:


> That's gonna happen in most such demonstrations.  There's not enough time in real time to discuss it if you do it full speed against a resisting opponent.


But there was nothing stopping him from explaining first,  Then showing the same concept in action.  It's sort of like how Kung Fu demos go.  They explain, then they demo,  but never go into sparring to show the application in actual use.

The only video I've seen of it actually happen was a little girl who choked out a kid using his t-shirt.  But she already had him in a bad position , as in she could have probably braided his hair and he wouldn't have been able to stop that.  The t-shirt choke only came when he was helpless.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Do this the next time you are in class.  Take a punching and have someone to do front kicks.  Allow them to hit it a few times.  Then when you think you have a good idea of the distance that the kicks travels then move the pad 3 inches back right before the kick lands. Comeback to this thread and tell me what happened.  As easy as it is to do this with a mit, it's easier to do it with the body because you can control the distance with your stance.  If you can move your head 3 inches to get out of the way, then why don't you think it works the same way with the body my moving your feet.  Just shuffle in the direction you need to move in.


You are putting mass back into the equation. The whole body vs. just the head. If you are moving at your midsection back to avoid a middle level attack I can agree with you. But not shuffling your feet vs. using an arm that is likely close to blocking position anyway.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> But there was nothing stopping him from explaining first,  Then showing the same concept in action.  It's sort of like how Kung Fu demos go.  They explain, then they demo,  but never go into sparring to show the application in actual use.
> 
> The only video I've seen of it actually happen was a little girl who choked out a kid using his t-shirt.  But she already had him in a bad position , as in she could have probably braided his hair and he wouldn't have been able to stop that.  The t-shirt choke only came when he was helpless.


The banter if always fun, but do you realize how much you arguments come from only one perspective, that of Kung Fu? No, I am not bashing Kung Fu, I am quite fond of it but there are hundreds other styles and methods that do work quite well.  Oh, and remember, just because you heard it or see it on the internet (YouTube) doesn't make it true.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Whoever put disagree, would you like for me to show you the math?
> 
> If your kick will only go 2 inches into my body, then I only need to shuffle 3 inches to get out of the way.  My arm will travel more than 3 inches to move from a high guard position to a low block position.  It's literally math.  What is the distance that a front kick travels into the body?  What ever that distance is, you only need to travel 1or 2 inches more. to get out of the way.  Am I the only one that knows this?


I think that was me. You don't seem to understand there is more that just distance to the equation. Mass, acceleration, velocity, etc...


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> The fact that your hand was all the way up the leg to the knee is telling me it was either performed incorrectly or way too late or both. Didn't mean that to sound rude.


 You don't sound rude.  I slowed the video down and paused it at the point of impact and I actually was short of hitting the target.  I was trying to hit his knee and saw that i was actually short of it.  Which meant that I could have safely given him a nice hammer fist.  I already know I have bad timing for a low block, so if you can tell me what should have happened with the low block, then I wouldn't mind hearing it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> but do you realize how much you arguments come from only one perspective, that of Kung Fu?


All I do is kung fu so what other perspective would I be able to come from?  I'm not going to sit here and say "This is how BJJ is."  I can only come from the perspective of having the experience of my shirt ripping and people punching at me.  2 Things I've personally experienced.   I've never been ground and pound before but I can only imagine that someone punching at you, elbowing you, and head butting you would keep your hands busy.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> You don't seem to understand there is more that just distance to the equation. Mass, acceleration, velocity, etc...


 Distance is everything.  Measure distance wrong and you'll get your timing wrong. Regardless of mass, acceleration, velocity etc..  kicks and punches will only have mass, acceleration, and velocity with in a limited range and then after that, it drops off greatly.  Measure that distance correctly and you'll be able to exploit that.  Measure that distance wrong and you get nailed.  Measure that distance correctly and you can avoid the strike with minimum effort.

Same concept but with punching





If you move 5 feet back every time someone throws a strike then you'll forever be out of range to instantly counter.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> It's not the T-shirt that's choking you, mainly.....it's mostly my forearm that cutting off the blood flow...or worse, if I go for an air choke and possibly crush your trachea.


 If this is the case then it seems to make more sense and just choke them out without using the shirt.  Is it illegal to use the shirt in no gi bjjj?


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> You don't sound rude.  I slowed the video down and paused it at the point of impact and I actually was short of hitting the target.  I was trying to hit his knee and saw that i was actually short of it.  Which meant that I could have safely given him a nice hammer fist.  I already know I have bad timing for a low block, so if you can tell me what should have happened with the low block, then I wouldn't mind hearing it.


 
Block from mid-calf to ankle if for no other reasons than torque and lever. Plus you greatly reduce your chance of getting hit.
In regards to an actual attack, the knee is fair game and the inside is quite sensitive and a good place to strike. IF they tried to kick me like in your video, I would still block lower on the leg to make sure I wasn't hit and then counter, maybe to the knee.  I don't know how to test it but a strike to the knee cap is supposedly effective. But I personally would not make it my go to knee block/strike.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I saw one guy explaining a technique and another guy doing nothing to resist it.



Here ya go.






1:04 mark.



JowGaWolf said:


> If this is the case then it seems to make more sense and just choke them out without using the shirt.



It's harder to break chokes that are assisted by clothing, and having something providing additional grips, leverage, and tension never hurts.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Here ya go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  I don't know.  You can actually see him pause in order to let her get the technique.

This is the closet that I've seen to any type of shirt choke against a resisting person.  As far as I could tell she didn't go through the "bunching" phase  Unfortunately I couldn't see where she was pulling on the shirt.







Hanzou said:


> It's harder to break chokes that are assisted by clothing, and having something providing additional grips, leverage, and tension never hurts.


 I can see this, which is why I mentioned that I could see how a jacket or coat would get me choked out.  Not like that's the only way to choke me out, but the material is stronger than a t-shirt that you have to bunch up.


----------



## FriedRice (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> If this is the case then it seems to make more sense and just choke them out without using the shirt.  Is it illegal to use the shirt in no gi bjjj?



It depends. There are chokes you can do when they're in your guard (w/o grabbing their shirt), like the front naked choke, guillotine, etc.  But if you're tired, hurt bad, or something...or have no gas left, then you can use the shirt for grip to pull him down, further the choke, etc.  That's why I would take off my shirt asap.  When I wasn't trained, we already had cheap tricks like pulling their shirt over their head when in a clinch. I then brought this into sparring when I started training BJJ. Dudes would first start laughing, but then they got mad so I stopped that after a few times.

In no-gi, you're not allowed to yank on their rashguard nor grab the shorts, etc.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't know.  You can actually see him pause in order to let her get the technique.



And what do you think he'd be able to do during that 1 second pause? He isn't regaining posture that quickly, and his punches wouldn't do much damage from that position since his posture is broken.



> This is the closet that I've seen to any type of shirt choke against a resisting person.  As far as I could tell she didn't go through the "bunching" phase  Unfortunately I couldn't see where she was pulling on the shirt.



She was pulling him at the collar. You can tell by how jacked up his collar was afterwards. Her leg grip, the position of her legs, and him trying to pull away did the rest.

Bow and Arrow choke. Here's the gi version:


----------



## Buka (Nov 4, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You'll be fine.



Hanzou, remind me to discuss this with you later, I’m at working and having phone issues. A variation of this choke is my favorite move in martolial Arts. And I don’t give a damn what kind of clothing they have on.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 4, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Here ya go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very good video.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 4, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Distance is everything.  Measure distance wrong and you'll get your timing wrong. Regardless of mass, acceleration, velocity etc..  kicks and punches will only have mass, acceleration, and velocity with in a limited range and then after that, it drops off greatly.  Measure that distance correctly and you'll be able to exploit that.  Measure that distance wrong and you get nailed.  Measure that distance correctly and you can avoid the strike with minimum effort.
> 
> Same concept but with punching
> 
> ...


The video supports what I am saying. Then are mainly moving their head. These guys are super fast and gifted. The agility is amazing. When Ali is in the corner bobbing and weaving his head is the perfect example. I better understand what you are trying to say though. Footwork, footwork, footwork. However, that is very different from Ali's bob & weave.
Most people cannot not nor ever will move like those guys.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 4, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Then are mainly moving their head. These guys are super fast and gifted. The agility is amazing. When Ali is in the corner bobbing and weaving his head is the perfect example.


 Moving the body is the same concept.  When someone kicks at a body, they are literally kicking at a target.  Move the target left or right or back a few inches will cause the person to miss.  Boxing is a little different because they can actually "punch into a target" versus "punching at the surface" If they punch at the surface of the then you can just move your head back a little and be safe.  If they punch beyond the surface of the target then moving back a few inches won't help and that's when bobbing and weaving and taking angles come into play.

This same concept exists with kicks, but it works better, because once a person kicks they can no longer move forward. Even with the side kick that Bruce Lee uses follows this rule.  When he actually kicks, his physical body is no longer moving forward beyond where he planted his foot. The other thing about it is that you don't have to be as quick to get out of the way because kicks normally travel in a consistent distance. If you can get a good estimate on the length of the leg then you can do really good with staying out of range or smothering a kick.  

The difficulty with punches is that there is more than one.  With kicks, you really only have to get pass that first because the second one takes longer than the first one.  Even as fast as this kicks are, you'll still have time to move in or at an angle as the foot retreats.  Provided that the first kick doesn't beak your structure, causing to spend your "moving time" for regaining your structure.






Front kick at 1:40 misses because the body (target) moved off center of the kick.
Front kick at 2:00 misses because the body (target) moved off center of the kick (this time because of the footwork of the sweep)
Teep at 2:38 misses because the head moved off center of the kick
Side kick?  at 4:08 misses because distance wasn't calculated accurately.
Front kick at 4:13 misses because he takes an angle which moves the body, and it's not a big angle, it was just enough to get out of the way.  Because he didn't use a low block he still has his hand free to fire after he evades the kick.  He was able to strike while the kick was still in the air.

I picked this fighter because I already knew that Yi Long likes to move in on kicks.  He will either try to take an angle or smother the kick to prevent it from reaching maximum power.  He comfortable with this because he understand that once the kick starts, his opponent is no longer able to retreat.  He doesn't do a lot of bobbing and weaving because there are kicks involved, so the only really safe option is to move the body out of the way.  Bob and weave when there is kicking and you may end up kissing a shin, foot, or knee.


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## Buka (Nov 4, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You'll be fine.



I'm so glad you posted that vid. Several years ago I was asking here on the forum if there was a particular name to this choke....well, actually, a variation of this choke. A variation I much prefer. Is there a name for this other than collar choke from guard? And I looked online for this puppy forever back then but never found it.

I was originally taught.....when you hook their right arm....your hand keeps going and grabs their lapel/collar. Grabs it by their left jawline.

You start slapping with your free hand on the left side of their head (or instead of slapping you can start force their head to the side)
While you're slapping you grab their lapel/collar a few inches higher than where you already grip it. But when I grip it I don't have my hand palm up, I have it palm down. Then start forcing their head to the side. Then slip your arm over the head and proceed to apply the choke. AND by having your second hand palm down, you now turn it palm up as you're applying. This turn of the hand further cinches the lapel/collar a few inches tighter. Then pull apart your hands driving your elbows down while inhaling.
One of the differences between what's shown is - the one I was taught is one less move. When you initially hook their arm your hand just keeps going as part of that hooking motion and grabs collar.
We were taught this in the early nineties. We experimented for years in gi, in every kind of t-shirt imaginable, including old ones with the collars removed you know - the kind a kid with a mullet would wear back in the eighties. We experimented with dress shirts, sweatshirts, sweaters, both button down and pull overs, suits, hooded sweatshirts, winter coats of all kind, rain slickers. With everything and anything we could think of. We experimented inside and outside, in rain, snow, in mud, in slush.  (in slush you don't last more than thirty seconds, but hey, I wasn't very bright) So before anyone assumes it won't work on a particular article of clothing - go play and wreck some clothes. It's actually kind of fun.

It worked with everything. Hooded sweatshirts can mess you up a little bit when you grab the hood by mistake. It can do this in two different ways - but I ain't telling you how, go figure it out for yourself.

And I tell you what, when you get their arm hooked and grab with your first hand - again, which is one fairly simple move - from there the second grab into the end of the choke is FAST. Really fast. Go try. Then have your partners resist. One of the benefits of their resisting actually helps you. When somebody doesn't know this choke and you start shoving their head to the side, they will resist as a reaction - which lets you stop shoving and move your arm over their head - it's kind of like they pop their own head into the noose. Which is always a fine thing.


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## dvcochran (Nov 4, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Moving the body is the same concept.  When someone kicks at a body, they are literally kicking at a target.  Move the target left or right or back a few inches will cause the person to miss.  Boxing is a little different because they can actually "punch into a target" versus "punching at the surface" If they punch at the surface of the then you can just move your head back a little and be safe.  If they punch beyond the surface of the target then moving back a few inches won't help and that's when bobbing and weaving and taking angles come into play.
> 
> This same concept exists with kicks, but it works better, because once a person kicks they can no longer move forward. Even with the side kick that Bruce Lee uses follows this rule.  When he actually kicks, his physical body is no longer moving forward beyond where he planted his foot. The other thing about it is that you don't have to be as quick to get out of the way because kicks normally travel in a consistent distance. If you can get a good estimate on the length of the leg then you can do really good with staying out of range or smothering a kick.
> 
> ...



One very common drill we do is to practice the distance of our kicks and when to use them. I an add or subtract about 10" to my kick by what I do with my body. When kicking, I have the same choices of any other move. I can move in any direction after the kick. It is always relevant to what the opponent does. I can jab with a kick much like I jab with a punch. 
The kicking contest in the video was purely a speed race. Not a good example at all. The standing leg was basically static as well as the body. It was in a controlled environment where nothing else mattered so not very practical. That is rarely a useful way to throw multiple kicks in a fight. It happens but not very often,  maybe when the opponent if outclassed or overpowered.  
If I double roundhouse you the leg doesn't reset to the ground so there isn't much time to do anything but block, or get hit.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 4, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> The standing leg was basically static as well as the body


 This is going to be case with all kicks unless you are in the air.  As you stated, You can move in any direction after the kick which means you move once the kicking leg returns to the ground.



dvcochran said:


> If I double roundhouse you the leg doesn't reset to the ground so there isn't much time to do anything but block, or get hit.


 Been there. Done it.  counter is still the same move forward either straight or at an angle. No need to block.   I just need to move forward or forward at an angle in either direction as you give up your root completely.  

That's just the weak points of kick and it doesn't matter which system a person trains all circular kicks have the same weak points.


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## FriedRice (Nov 4, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> The difficulty with punches is that there is more than one.  With kicks, you really only have to get pass that first because the second one takes longer than the first one.  Even as fast as this kicks are, you'll still have time to move in or at an angle as the foot retreats.  Provided that the first kick doesn't beak your structure, causing to spend your "moving time" for regaining your structure.



That's the thing I learned real quick when starting Muay Thai, with a TKD background. That a low leg kick needs to inflict pain, which will cause that 1/2 a second of shock....giving you time to pull back your kicking leg into stance to defend what's coming back at you or to attack again.  TKD, it was too much snappy kicks for speed & points but low power....I could kick pretty hard, just too used to going for speed.  MT dudes would wreck me with their hands....and my TKD hands were trash. 

That's why when you see that MT RH kick miss, the kicker usually spins 360 deg. because he just put everything he had into that kick. Although there are dudes quick enough to get you while you're spinning, esp. in Thailand. 

Another variation of the MT RH kick is to take a step forward & at 45 degrees then kick, while bending the torso. This immediately avoids the punch counter, usually the straight cross. Even if you don't land the kick, there's enough time to defend punches.


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## WaterGal (Nov 5, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Awesome.  Do you use the low block against a front kick?



Usually roundhouse kick. You don't tend to see a lot of front kicks in WTF TKD past a beginner level; roundhouse is much more popular.


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## dvcochran (Nov 5, 2018)

WaterGal said:


> Usually roundhouse kick. You don't tend to see a lot of front kicks in WTF TKD past a beginner level; roundhouse is much more popular.


I see it quite often in tournament sparring. I would say not using or teaching it is a bad habit. A front kick is an excellent tool and has a lot of variations. Great to have in your arsenal.


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## WaterGal (Nov 5, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I see it quite often in tournament sparring. I would say not using or teaching it is a bad habit. A front kick is an excellent tool and has a lot of variations. Great to have in your arsenal.



It's a good tool to know, sure. But it's not been my experience that it's a particularly common scoring kick in Olympic TKD.


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