# Exploring the link between Chi Sau and Free Fighting



## BPWT (Aug 14, 2014)

"Texas Lat Sau" - The Link between Chi Sau and Free Fighting in Wing Tsun - YouTube

Nice clip from Alex, who is working on finding a way to introduce Hong Kong Lat Sau work from the Leung Ting lineage into his teaching. I think he plans to create a series of clips like this for his youtube channel.


----------



## KPM (Aug 14, 2014)

BPWT said:


> "Texas Lat Sau" - The Link between Chi Sau and Free Fighting in Wing Tsun - YouTube
> 
> Nice clip from Alex, who is working on finding a way to introduce Hong Kong Lat Sau work from the Leung Ting lineage into his teaching. I think he plans to create a series of clips like this for his youtube channel.



The problem I see with this approach is that you are still working Wing Chun vs. Wing Chun.  This is still "inbred" training.   If you are using this as a transition to sparring, then the assumption would that the only people you are going to spar are fellow Wing Chun'ers.   One person puts up a guard that completely protects and closes his center.  The other person then proceeds to attack directly into that closed center.  Does that make sense?   If someone has there hands up on the center, then the opening is to the sides.  That's were most fighters will try to attack when sparring or fighting.  Likewise, if someone has their hands wide, the opening is up the center.   Where you place your guard helps predict where the opponent will likely attack.   So while this kind of drilling is cool and all, I think it would be better if the attacking partner was throwing some "pseudo-boxing" attacks and trying to make things a bit more realistic.   We do this in Pin Sun and call it "spark training" or "response drills."  

BTW...welcome to the forum BPWT!  :wavey:


----------



## BPWT (Aug 14, 2014)

KPM said:


> The problem I see with this approach is that you are still working Wing Chun vs. Wing Chun.  This is still "inbred" training.   If you are using this as a transition to sparring, then the assumption would that the only people you are going to spar are fellow Wing Chun'ers.   One person puts up a guard that completely protects and closes his center.  The other person then proceeds to attack directly into that closed center.  Does that make sense?   If someone has there hands up on the center, then the opening is to the sides.  That's were most fighters will try to attack when sparring or fighting.  Likewise, if someone has their hands wide, the opening is up the center.   Where you place your guard helps predict where the opponent will likely attack.   So while this kind of drilling is cool and all, I think it would be better if the attacking partner was throwing some "pseudo-boxing" attacks and trying to make things a bit more realistic.   We do this in Pin Sun and call it "spark training" or "response drills."



Absolutely. :asian: So the platform start's WT vs WT, to make sure you can use what you're learning when dealing with your own game, and then later you can add in other attacks that are not so 'inbred'. 

The aim of our Lat Sau work is to help you understand how you incorporate your Chi Sau skills. So the progression in training is Chi Sau - Lat Sau - Sparring. 



KPM said:


> BTW...welcome to the forum BPWT!  :wavey:



:high5: Good to chat again.


----------



## PiedmontChun (Aug 14, 2014)

I can definitely see how this would be beneficial. My local LT lineage school does various drills that resemble this as a pre-cursor to chi-sau, although they are static / planned drills so not the same I gather. It seems from the clip shown that there is some some dynamic element to this method by countering what is fed to you, but in a more relaxed fashion than sparring.


----------



## Argus (Aug 16, 2014)

A variety of training is important, I think.

I think understanding the nature of Chisao in the first place is very important.

Lat Sao is definitely a good place to start once the fundamentals of Chisao are there. I think people get far too comfortable sticking endlessly to their opponent in Chisao, and don't learn to adopt the proper mentality towards a fight, which should be very simple; hit your opponent.

Chisao is merely a skill that we build for when things don't go according to plan; when you go to hit your opponent, and he puts something in your way. Like fencing, this is when you respond to his pressure, change, and follow up your attack. You shouldn't need to think about much beyond hitting your opponent; what you need should come out automatically as a result of your training.


----------



## KPM (Aug 16, 2014)

Argus said:


> A variety of training is important, I think.
> 
> I think understanding the nature of Chisao in the first place is very important.
> 
> Chisao is merely a skill that we build for when things don't go according to plan; when you go to hit your opponent, and he puts something in your way. Like fencing, this is when you respond to his pressure, change, and follow up your attack. You shouldn't need to think about much beyond hitting your opponent; what you need should come out automatically as a result of your training.



I agree!  I have always been of the opinion that some Wing Chun groups spend way too much time and put too much emphasis on Chi Sao.  That Chi Sao range only happens for a few seconds in a real encounter.  Sometimes it doesn't happen at all!  A lot of the newer generation of JKD guys have dropped all the Chi Sao and Trapping Drills (Phon Sao) that were part of Bruce Lee's curriculum because they discovered that in sparring with modern stylists those things just didn't have a high enough yield.  When sparring with someone familiar with wrestling as well as striking, when you make contact in a Chi Sao range they know to go directly to a clinch or shoot for a takedown.  

I'm not saying that I think Chi Sao is no longer important.  I don't necessarily agree with the JKD guys that have dropped it completely.  All I am saying is that too many Wing Chun schools seem to place a heavy emphasis on it almost to the point of making being good at it the end goal of learning Wing Chun.  They turn it into a Wing Chun version of sparring and think that being good at Chi Sao means they are a good fighter.  This simply isn't true.  Anyway, that's my 2 cents....for what its worth.  ;-)


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 16, 2014)

KPM said:


> When sparring with someone familiar with wrestling as well as striking, when you make contact in a Chi Sao range they know to go directly to a clinch. ...



This is very true, a wrestler's arms are like 2 octopus arms that like to wrap anything it can touch. The "under hook" and "over hook" are the general strategies. A WC guy likes to "build and cross" arm bridge. A wrestler likes to "wrap" that arm bridge.

If you want to extend your Chi Shou into free fighting, you should also train how to deal with "under hook" and "over hook", ...


----------



## mook jong man (Aug 16, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is very true, a wrestler's arms are like 2 octopus arms that like to wrap anything it can touch. The "under hook" and "over hook" are the general strategies. A WC guy likes to "build and cross" arm bridge. A wrestler likes to "wrap" that arm bridge.
> 
> If you want to extend your Chi Shou into free fighting, _*you should also train how to deal with "under hook" and "over hook"*_, ...



We do , it's called a headbutt.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 16, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> We do , it's called a headbutt.


The headbutt is two ways street.


----------



## mook jong man (Aug 16, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The headbutt is two ways street.



That it is , that's why you have to get in first.


----------



## Vajramusti (Aug 16, 2014)

BPWT said:


> "Texas Lat Sau" - The Link between Chi Sau and Free Fighting in Wing Tsun - YouTube
> 
> Nice clip from Alex, who is working on finding a way to introduce Hong Kong Lat Sau work from the Leung Ting lineage into his teaching. I think he plans to create a series of clips like this for his youtube channel.




________________________________________________________
I don't do LT, TWC or gu lao. Understanding chi sao imo varies  with lineage and levels of training.

Escept for fighting evrything else is simulation and models of simulation vary. Training in chi sao in my experience prepares you not just for other wing chun folks 
but for other styles as well. It prepares you for forces and vectors attacking you from all directions.


----------



## mook jong man (Aug 16, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> ________________________________________________________
> I don't do LT, TWC or gu lao. Understanding chi sao imo varies  with lineage and levels of training.
> 
> Escept for fighting evrything else is simulation and models of simulation vary. Training in chi sao in my experience prepares you not just for other wing chun folks
> but for other styles as well._* It prepares you for forces and vectors attacking you from all directions.*_



Well that's it right there isn't it.
That is how we think of it in our lineage as well , it's an exercise to teach you how to deal with different types of forces , attempting to redirect and absorb those forces so as to have a minimal effect on the stance.

Whether the force is encountered by starting in contact or out of contact is largely irrelevant , what matters most is what direction the force is coming from and where it wants to go to.


----------



## KPM (Aug 16, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> Well that's it right there isn't it.
> That is how we think of it in our lineage as well , it's an exercise to teach you how to deal with different types of forces , attempting to redirect and absorb those forces so as to have a minimal effect on the stance.
> 
> Whether the force is encountered by starting in contact or out of contact is largely irrelevant , what matters most is what direction the force is coming from and where it wants to go to.



This is true.  But the problem is that the rolling platform for Chi Sao is an artificial construct.  If one never uses or tests what they are training and learning outside of that construct, then there is a problem.  That's why I think there can be an over-emphasis on Chi Sao.   But also why I think the Lat Sao example that started this thread is a good idea....if done right.   And it doesn't matter what lineage or style of Wing Chun you come from.  Chi Sao is not fighting, and not even real sparring.  And it shouldn't be looked upon as a substitute for either one.  I agree that Chi Sao teaches one how to deal with different types of forces and how to redirect and absorb those forces.   But I've seen too many examples of Chi Sao "games" where multi-step moves and counters are used that just would never show up in a real encounter with someone NOT doing Wing Chun.  Chi Sao has value.  But IMHO spending countless hours of training to learn how to defeat another Wing Chun guy in a Chi Sao exchange using complicated set ups and counters is time wasted that could have been spent on better things.


----------



## mook jong man (Aug 17, 2014)

KPM said:


> This is true.  But the problem is that the rolling platform for Chi Sao is an artificial construct.  If one never uses or tests what they are training and learning outside of that construct, then there is a problem.  That's why I think there can be an over-emphasis on Chi Sao.   But also why I think the Lat Sao example that started this thread is a good idea....if done right.   And it doesn't matter what lineage or style of Wing Chun you come from.  Chi Sao is not fighting, and not even real sparring.  And it shouldn't be looked upon as a substitute for either one.  I agree that Chi Sao teaches one how to deal with different types of forces and how to redirect and absorb those forces.   But I've seen too many examples of Chi Sao "games" where multi-step moves and counters are used that just would never show up in a real encounter with someone NOT doing Wing Chun.  Chi Sao has value.  But IMHO spending countless hours of training to learn how to defeat another Wing Chun guy in a Chi Sao exchange using complicated set ups and counters is time wasted that could have been spent on better things.



Absolutely , it has to be balanced with other things.
In our lineage we do a lot of chi sau , but we also do a lot of what we call (light hand sparring) which is the same as the lat sau.

Thirdly we do what we call "random arms" which is basically someone throwing anything at you from conventional range.
Chi Sau is for developing attributes to fight at close range , but you still have to work on your other reflexes so that you can penetrate the "windmill of arms" as it were safely, so that you can get in and use your close range skills.


----------



## sifupr (Aug 17, 2014)

Chi Sao insight 2 | Wing Chun Kwoon - Traditional Wing Chun Academy


----------



## Marnetmar (Aug 17, 2014)

sifupr said:


> Chi Sao insight 2 | Wing Chun Kwoon - Traditional Wing Chun Academy



Hey Phil, I know this is way off topic but I just wanted to say you seem like a really cool dude.


----------



## Argus (Aug 19, 2014)

KPM said:


> This is true.  But the problem is that the rolling platform for Chi Sao is an artificial construct.  If one never uses or tests what they are training and learning outside of that construct, then there is a problem.  That's why I think there can be an over-emphasis on Chi Sao.   But also why I think the Lat Sao example that started this thread is a good idea....if done right.   And it doesn't matter what lineage or style of Wing Chun you come from.  Chi Sao is not fighting, and not even real sparring.  And it shouldn't be looked upon as a substitute for either one.  I agree that Chi Sao teaches one how to deal with different types of forces and how to redirect and absorb those forces.   But I've seen too many examples of Chi Sao "games" where multi-step moves and counters are used that just would never show up in a real encounter with someone NOT doing Wing Chun.  Chi Sao has value.  But IMHO spending countless hours of training to learn how to defeat another Wing Chun guy in a Chi Sao exchange using complicated set ups and counters is time wasted that could have been spent on better things.



Exactly.

Chisao is an essential training method, and I would say does encompass the heart and soul of Wing Chun. It's where we learn to apply the principles and techniques of the system. But it tends to become too much of a focus sometimes, and, in my opinion, a bit too competitive.

It's also important to learn to deal with "bad energy," though. One disadvantage of only practicing Chisao is that you're entirely accustomed to skilled Wing Chun practitioners who don't attempt to use unconventional lines, use excess force, or push strongly inwards or outwards. In some cases, it's easier to deal with this kind of energy, but in others, it's more difficult. If you're too used to sticking endlessly to an opponent who doesn't over commit, you won't pickup when you should let go of one who does. Likewise, varying degrees of stiffness, strength, and speed can throw you off as well. 

I like to compare Wing Chun to historical fencing -- particularly Lichtenauer's tradition of medieval German longsword, as it adheres to the very same principles that we do in Wing Chun. If you look through the historical treatises, it is interesting to note that most plays deal not with other fencers using the Lichtenauer system, but rather with unskilled or free-fighters, exemplifying how to take advantage of opponents who cut wide, bring their point off the line, or strongly parry outwards, and all those things that Lichtenauer's tradition specifically instructs one not to do. I have seen a select few Sifus put Wing Chun in this sort of context, and comparing it with other styles, and touching on the origin and intent of certain concepts or techniques as they were designed to be applied against other contemporary styles. That sort of breadth of knowledge is invaluable in understanding an art and its application, I think, but is sadly lost on most modern practitioners.


----------



## KPM (Aug 19, 2014)

Old Johan would be impressed with your analogy, and so am I!  ;-)


----------



## dlcox (Aug 19, 2014)

Interesting topic. The ending defensive postion in the video presented is similar to what we call Huan Hun Yao Tie Ban Qiao (Emergency Waist Bend Iron Half Bridge) in Ruan family Yongchun. HHYTBQ is essentially the Wu Shou (Guarding Hand) and Da Bang (Big Wing) positions held while in Si Ping Ma (4 Equal Horse). It is similar to "Crab Style" in western boxing. It is a postion that uses Bi Ma (Pressing Horse) to "Jam" or "Stiffle" the opponents heavy attack allowing one to enter into bridging while simultaneously covering up and "De-fanging" the opponent. It lends itself nicely to Chi Shou, Qinna and Shuai Jiao techniques. IMO it is a much more realistic approach to realistic combat and lends itself better to spontaneous attacks while sparring. I find myself in agreeance with KPM and his views towards Chi Shou. Though the postion isn't clearly illustrated in the video the "Idea" is. Irregardless the postion you prefer to initiate this contact from the concept is valid and worthy of further investigation.


----------

