# What is considered Ving Tsun (Wing Chun/ etc)



## wkmark (Aug 31, 2010)

As some of you are aware, I posted earlier 2 vidoes of my recent Full Contact Ving Tsun Competition.  Although my opponent was not really doing Ving Tsun (according to me that is), nevertheless since I didn't know him and I had no idea of his martial arts background, thus I fought the way I would have fought anyone in a competition; and that was to apply my training and tried to enter this fight using what I knew.  Which was to do things that was Simple, Direct, and Effective.  

Obviously given this was my first time, the videos helped me to put myself in a microscope and see what I did wrong and what I could have done better to improve myself, which was really what the competition was all about.  Of course after I posted up the vidoes, I have heard various comments mostly good (thank god) but some that was the usual expected questions (where is the Ving Tsun? Where is the Tan So, Where is the elbow down? Where is the bong sau, Where is the Fok Sau etc...) Luckily no one asked me where the Lap Sao was coz i actually did it right at the beginning of the fight. =P

This got me thinking... In our training, we do our bong sau.. tan sau, etc.  But yet in our full contact where we are (or at least me) trying to end the fight as fast as possible by attacking the most simple, direct and effective way.  Why are people expecting to see the Tan sao, the Bong Sau, etc?  If my opponent is not doing Wing Chun and his center is wide open like in the video, my most effective way was to fight towards the center (my center) keeping my hands in the inside and forcing his to the outside (where his punches does less damage) It answers the question "Is it Direct? Yes/ Is it Simple? Yes/ and is it Effective? Yes.  So just because I did not use a Tan Sao, or Bong Sao, does this NOT qualify as Ving Tsun?

The elbows down is understandable and I admit that during the fight there were times that my elbows were out, but given the moving situation and we are human beings, we make errors.  It tends to happen. My point was to make contact with him and not to be restrained by Ving Tsun.  Not to be bound by it.  There are theories and principles to comply to but it's does not mean that they are set in stone.  If the opportunities are there, why wouldn't I take it?

So in the end, I want to ask each of you, when you are looking at people doing full contact fights or sparring in Ving Tsun (Wing Chun/ Wing Tsun) what do you consider it to be or NOT to be Ving Tsun?

Please don't take me wrong, I am not at all upset by people's criticisms, but I really want to understand what people's perception of Ving Tsun is supposed to look like.  Thanks for taking the time to read this long post.


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## WC_lun (Aug 31, 2010)

When I look at someone trading hands I look for Wing Chun concepts to be followed.  If those concepts aren't being followed it isn't Wing Chun. If they are being followed, I don't care what techniques are being used.  Bong sau, lap sau, tan sau, tan da, wu sau, etc are all just techniques.  Who cares what technique you use?!  Did you get the job done?  That is the point.

Specifically some things I look for is the footwork beng used to get in a supurior position?  Is the body moving as one unit? Is there awareness of body position in relationship to solid structure and triangulation?  Is the person being efficient?  Is the opponent being put into a position that they must recover?  If these things are all answers to the positive then I view it as good Wing Chun.  If these things have answers to the negative then more work needs to be done.  For me personally, I rarely get everything perfect so there is always more training to do.


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## hunt1 (Aug 31, 2010)

wkmark before I answer i have a question for you. Going up the center as you did how quickly were you able to end the fight? How many potential stray fingers to the eye of punches to the face and head did your face guard/head gear protect you from?

 There maybe other ways to look at direct,simple efficient.


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## wkmark (Aug 31, 2010)

Going up the center obviously did not end the fight as fast as I had hoped.  During the first 20 seconds of the fight i had punches that some were connecting and some weren't.  I then realized that I was aiming towards the face area but actually punching a bit above.  When we reset, I tried to aim lower, towards the neck area because when i made contact, it was actually towards the jaw area.  This may have been because as I was moving in, my punches were forcing him to lose balance, thus his head was starting to tilt back.  Resulting in my punches hitting him in the jaw.  (or could be that my stance was not well rooted) There were moments that I did have to adjust the punches just a bit higher to not hit the neck and to not result in a warning on my side.

As for the stray fingers, or punches, they were really hitting the top of my head or to the side rather than anywhere near my eyes.  Did the helmet helped, to be honest I really did not know since I did not felt anything coming close to my eyes.

I greatly agree that there are more than 1 ways to be simple, direct, and effective.  I was just asking in a sense as to how come people always need to see a Tan Sao, or Bong Sau or Fok Sau or what nots to consider the movements to be warranted as Ving Tsun.  If we didn't perform it in full contact fighting, does that mean that all the drills that we have done in our training have not made it worthwhile?  Of course I have my own observations and ideas from this, I was just trying to open this up for discussions and trying to see what others have discovered.   





hunt1 said:


> wkmark before I answer i have a question for you. Going up the center as you did how quickly were you able to end the fight? How many potential stray fingers to the eye of punches to the face and head did your face guard/head gear protect you from?
> 
> There maybe other ways to look at direct,simple efficient.


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## hunt1 (Aug 31, 2010)

The core of wing chun is standing grappling but you are looking at it as a boxing method. That is why the drills we have all done and the shapes of bong etc don't come out when you are boxing as in your vid. 

 Don't get me wrong bong etc do have boxing uses as well as grappling but you  are not there yet there fore you don't see it coming out.

 Start at the beginning , first drill we all learn is bong lap. What is it? It is a grappling skill developer. Wing Chun wants to strike while grappling.

 Look at the drill one person pulls your wrist and punches your response is to bong. You are learning to bong your elbow up when your wrist is pulled, a grappling defense. Wrist up when elbow attacked is the next. When you move on to poon sau etc etc what are you learning? Grappling combined with striking. 

 So wing chun folks spend most of their time doing bong tan etc etc in a close body grappling drill and then are surprised that the skills or motions do not appear in a boxing environment. To make matters worse most people have been taught body mechanics best suited for boxing in a grappling environment , hence many wing chun folks are easily taken down when faced with grappling.

 Nothing wrong with center line punching. The others things you have heard of or been taught, control the center of gravity, calm mind, relaxed not tense, etc will bring out the shapes you are looking for once you are comfortable in a boxing setting.

 Bong etc are used and will come out naturally in a boxing situation once their use is learned. It's just that most teachers seem to keep the methods hidden until the end of instruction


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 31, 2010)

What you did was simple, direct, and effective, if not a bit sloppy.  Did it look like Wing CHun?  Well, it depends on what you thing WC should look like.  I say, yes.  But it didn't look like what my WC looks like, or what other members on the forums WC looks like.  It should look different for every one of us.  If you were expecting to use tan, bong, fook, etc. hand positions, then you should have let your opponent pressure you.  

You did some things right (in a WC way) and a few things wrong. 

There were three things that I saw you did that almost every WC student has problems with until they get comfortable with getting into a fight or competition:

1.  Didn't keep your elbows down and in when executing your punches (everyone noticed that).  A lot of times that is because students are trying too hard to execute their battle punches and don't see them being as effective as they think they should be.

2.  Too much weight on your front foot, being too upright and forward, leaning, more on your toes, and not sitting back, sinking, rooting to the ground with your back or rear foot as you should (I think a few forum members stated that too).

3.  I could see you were too anxious to end the fight, too much nervous energy, instead of trying to stay calm and collected so it you could allow your technique to flow from you naturally and be spontaneous in its execution, you were too upright, forward, trying to run your opponent over, instead of controlling your structure and position.  In other words, you weren't in control of you.  That is something you will get with time, experience, and comfortable with the situation.

Remember the first time you sparred in class, you were all nervous and excited, worried you might get hurt or screw up and look like an idiot.  But now (if you have a bit of experience sparring) when you spar, it's no big deal, you look at it like it's a drill you've done many, many times before.  It may even be fun now to spar.  So you're able to think and see what your opponent is trying to do to you.  

It's the same when you do a competition.  Especially the first few times.  You have all this nervous energy and you're a bit scared.  So you do a lot of things wrong at first.  Then, after you're done several competitions, you're more comfortable with getting into the ring, you're more relaxed, you don't let it bother you too much, you're able to see, think, feel everything you need to do to make your technique follow through correctly.  It's no longer a big deal and your able to focus on letting your WC just come out of you.  You just need time and experience.

Also, WC is about being defensive, counter attacking when your opponent commits to a technique and striking them when it is too late to counter your attack.  Once you have control, then you become as offensive as possible.  Instead,  you started out too offensive, trying to take control of the fight immediately.

If you would have done what I list above, then, most likely, you would have looked like what you think WC should look like in the ring.

Just telling you what I saw.


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## WC_lun (Aug 31, 2010)

Zepeda, that's a great post and very true.


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## wtxs (Aug 31, 2010)

wkmark said:


> So in the end, I want to ask each of you, when you are looking at people doing full contact fights or sparring in Ving Tsun (Wing Chun/ Wing Tsun) what do you consider it to be or NOT to be Ving Tsun?
> 
> Please don't take me wrong, I am not at all upset by people's criticisms, but I really want to understand what people's perception of Ving Tsun is supposed to look like.  Thanks for taking the time to read this long post.



All WC lineage shares an common core, being human gives rise to unique individual interpretation of it.  some people get too idealistic about WC applications and what it should look like under pressure.  Lets get real, we know it will not look like is was in an training setting.

WK - give yourself a pat on the back for having the guts to get out there and test your *interpretation* of WC, learn and enjoy the experience, don't concern yourself of what others might think of what you do is *WC'ish*.:soapbox:


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## WC_lun (Aug 31, 2010)

It never looks like the movies, does it?


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## BloodMoney (Aug 31, 2010)

- Simultaneous attack and defense
- Conservation of energy
- Economy of movement


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## wkmark (Aug 31, 2010)

Hunt1- Thank you for your feedback.  Perhaps it's different interpretation of of Wing Chun.  I am under the Wong Shun Leung Method.  Mind I ask you which lineage you are under.  I have heard of other mentioning that in their interpretation of Wing Chun was a standing grappling, but I wasn't sure which lineage that was under.  However maybe because Sifu Wong Shun Leung had a background in boxing and less grappling, thus his interpretation of Wing Chun was more boxing like.  No right or wrong, I was just trying to understand more that's all.  Thank you again for your comments.  



hunt1 said:


> The core of wing chun is standing grappling but you are looking at it as a boxing method. That is why the drills we have all done and the shapes of bong etc don't come out when you are boxing as in your vid.
> 
> Don't get me wrong bong etc do have boxing uses as well as grappling but you  are not there yet there fore you don't see it coming out.
> 
> ...


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## wkmark (Aug 31, 2010)

Yes, Zepeda Thank you for your input. 



WC_lun said:


> Zepeda, that's a great post and very true.


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## wkmark (Aug 31, 2010)

Thank you for your comments. 



wtxs said:


> All WC lineage shares an common core, being human gives rise to unique individual interpretation of it.  some people get too idealistic about WC applications and what it should look like under pressure.  Lets get real, we know it will not look like is was in an training setting.
> 
> WK - give yourself a pat on the back for having the guts to get out there and test your *interpretation* of WC, learn and enjoy the experience, don't concern yourself of what others might think of what you do is *WC'ish*.:soapbox:


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## wkmark (Aug 31, 2010)

Haha... Everyone always hopes it looks like the movies.  I guess If we all fought in slow motion, we can make it look like the movies.  =P



WC_lun said:


> It never looks like the movies, does it?


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## pmosiun1 (Aug 31, 2010)

wkmark said:


> As some of you are aware, I posted earlier 2 vidoes of my recent Full Contact Ving Tsun Competition.  Although my opponent was not really doing Ving Tsun (according to me that is), nevertheless since I didn't know him and I had no idea of his martial arts background, thus I fought the way I would have fought anyone in a competition; and that was to apply my training and tried to enter this fight using what I knew.  Which was to do things that was Simple, Direct, and Effective.
> 
> Obviously given this was my first time, the videos helped me to put myself in a microscope and see what I did wrong and what I could have done better to improve myself, which was really what the competition was all about.  Of course after I posted up the vidoes, I have heard various comments mostly good (thank god) but some that was the usual expected questions (where is the Ving Tsun? Where is the Tan So, Where is the elbow down? Where is the bong sau, Where is the Fok Sau etc...) Luckily no one asked me where the Lap Sao was coz i actually did it right at the beginning of the fight. =P
> 
> ...



Most Wing Chun sparring looks like bad boxing and kickboxing to me. Maybe you should find a boxing or kickboxing gym?


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## WC_lun (Sep 1, 2010)

pmosiun1 said:


> Most Wing Chun sparring looks like bad boxing and kickboxing to me. Maybe you should find a boxing or kickboxing gym?


 
You either are trolling, don't know what you are looking at, or aren't looking at Wing Chun...or maybe a combination of all of the above.


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## wkmark (Sep 1, 2010)

Thank you.  I didn't even bother to reply that because no matter what, it will be an un-constructive response.



WC_lun said:


> You either are trolling, don't know what you are looking at, or aren't looking at Wing Chun...or maybe a combination of all of the above.


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## mook jong man (Sep 1, 2010)

pmosiun1 said:


> Most Wing Chun sparring looks like bad boxing and kickboxing to me. Maybe you should find a boxing or kickboxing gym?


 
Yeah great , then he can learn to fight with big fat frigging pillows on his hands and get metacarpal fractures from punching with an inferior structure when he finally does hit flesh and bone bare handed.


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## bully (Sep 1, 2010)

WC_lun said:


> You either are trolling, don't know what you are looking at, or aren't looking at Wing Chun...or maybe a combination of all of the above.


 
He seems to have done lots of one liners on different areas of the forum looking at his last posts...maybe and attempt at humour or too much of Grandmas cough medcine?

Back on topic, my WC wont look like WC when I am sparring because everything goes to rat **** when I am under pressure. Not enough experience is my problem. I think alot of WC guys do not spar enough but also feel that we should not chuck raw novices right into the mix until they get their shapes and foot work drilled a bit.


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## l_uk3y (Sep 1, 2010)

In terms of WC sparring there are numerous interpretations I have come across whether it be seen in person or seen on the internet. As a general rule, Most videos I've seen look very much like Boxing's ugly brother.

When I think WC vs WC sparring. I like to see a few main goals in mind.

If an obvious gap is left. Launch an attack and whether it be punch or kick entry. After that reaccess whether to keep attacking and driving forward with strikes. Or whether to start using blocks/positioning to trap limbs sneaking in the odd strike here and there whilst aiming to create the next opening before moving back into an all out striking approach. (Repeat as necessary).

If no major options are available from the get go. Move forward to gain contact and move straight to the phase of trying to trap limbs and work your way into a better position. 

Theory of economy of movement. No point continually charging forward punching if there is no suitable target available.  If the door is open. You can walk through it. If the door is closed then you have to open it before you can walk through.  (Unless you are all powerful of course  )



Please be aware that whilst I am training a few students and have about 7 years of WC behind me. I am not a fully qualified student and don't have any Sifu status or the like. Maybe in the near future I'll try and get a few videos of us training to get some Critique from other schools on here and compare notes. (Our Sifu took off a couple of years ago and left us all behind without mentioning a thing to us. Hence why making do with what we have)


Cheers.

Luke


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## mook jong man (Sep 1, 2010)

As I've said before I really do believe Wing Chun versus Wing Chun sparring is a waste of time and quite pointless.

That is apart from Chi Sau sparring and light hand sparring from the guard , these are important for developing attributes like hand speed , sensitivity , the different hand structures etc.

 My experience with Wing Chun versus Wing Chun sparring at long range , is that both parties straight away bridge the gap with a kick down the centreline , legs clash , then its right into punching and latching like theres no tomorrow until someone gets through.

The end result is that they haven't really worked on any thing that they couldn't already do before and the whole exercise  became rather  predictable as they both waited for attacks to be launched down the centreline.

Since it always ends up at close range why not just cut straight to the chase and start Chi Sau sparring right off the bat , this is the method of sparring that should form the bulk of your training.

The other very important type of training , I hesitate to call it sparring , because its more reaction training or reflex training is learning to deal with random arm and leg attacks coming from random angles with many and varied delivery methods.

This would be a much better use of your time and energy because circular types of attacks do cause the Wing Chun person some problems as the defences have to be opened up a lot more to deal with them than what they do with centreline attacks.

This sort of training also works on your " Interruptibility " and recovering position.

That is to quickly interrupt your technique and  convert into something else if an error has been made , basically rapidly getting your hand in the right position to deal with the threat as opposed to having your arm positioned where you thought the threat was coming from , you thought it was coming in wide but it came in straight or vice versa.

It just comes down to getting that elbow out for the round ones and getting the elbow in for the straight ones , but the skill is deciding which is which.


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## zepedawingchun (Sep 1, 2010)

pmosiun1 said:


> Most Wing Chun sparring looks like bad boxing and kickboxing to me. Maybe you should find a boxing or kickboxing gym?


 
In my experience also, yes, it does.  That is mainly from the inexperienced Wing Chun practitioner, someone who has no ring or tournament  experience or actual self defense fighting experience.

pmosiun, please excuse my fellow forum members, they do not know to whom they speak.


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## WC_lun (Sep 1, 2010)

I think too many people when trading hands get too caught up in the game of sparring.  The base of it is are you effecting your opponent, putting him in recovery mode and keeping him there?  If you aren't then something is off.  If you are then good for you and who cares what it looks like.


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## hunt1 (Sep 1, 2010)

Wkmark my Yip Man wing chun comes from several sources primarily Jiu Wan,Moy Yat,Yip Brothers and TST. My last teacher was Chao Ng Kwai he taught me the wing chun of Leung Jan student Lo Kwai.


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## BloodMoney (Sep 1, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> As I've said before I really do believe Wing Chun versus Wing Chun sparring is a waste of time and quite pointless.
> 
> That is apart from Chi Sau sparring and light hand sparring from the guard , these are important for developing attributes like hand speed , sensitivity , the different hand structures etc.
> 
> *snip*



Awesome post.

Chi Sau is Wing Chun sparring in my opinion, ive never seen any other form in any school ive been to here or abroad in Australasia. Maybe its more of an American or European thing? I see the videos of guys with full armour on wildly flailing at each other, and while it looks kinda fun ive never seen anyone actually doing it in person, or even advocating doing it. Chi Sau teaches you amazing sensitivity and spatial judgement, if you want more sparing out of it then just rough it up a bit, as in one person is the aggressor and the other the Chunner, so its like Chi Sau but starting with a jab or something instead of hands touching.


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## wkmark (Sep 1, 2010)

Thanks for your reply.  



hunt1 said:


> Wkmark my Yip Man wing chun comes from several sources primarily Jiu Wan,Moy Yat,Yip Brothers and TST. My last teacher was Chao Ng Kwai he taught me the wing chun of Leung Jan student Lo Kwai.


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## wkmark (Sep 1, 2010)

I want to Thank everyone here for their great input and insights.  All of your comments were constructive and helpful.  Thanks once again.  Should any of you ever travel to Hong Kong, please give me a holler and stop by so we can continue to share.


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## graychuan (Sep 9, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> ...Also, *WC is about being defensive, counter attacking when your opponent commits to a technique *and striking them when it is too late to counter your attack.  Once you have control, then you become as offensive as possible.  Instead,  you started out too offensive, trying to take control of the fight immediately...




I like this one , ZEP!


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## zepedawingchun (Sep 10, 2010)

graychuan said:


> I like this one , ZEP!


 
I find this interesting. I take it from your response that you've never thought about doing it that way. I get that a lot from various Wing Chun practitioners. It makes sense to me because that is how you do or feed a lot of the drills in Wing Chun. The feeder or aggressor, initiates the drill with a punch or strike first. And the receiver has to wait to see what is being feed so they can respond. Well, it's not any different when you are posed with an attacker coming to you to initiate an aggressive move. It is an idea we call *'mo tom sic'* or no greedy style. Knowing when to wait and when to attack.


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## graychuan (Sep 10, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> I find this interesting.  *I take it from your response that you've never thought about doing it that way.*  I get that a lot from various Wing Chun practitioners.  It makes sense to me because that is how you do or feed a lot of the drills in Wing Chun.  The feeder or aggressor, initiates the drill with a punch or strike first.  And the receiver has to wait to see what is being feed so they can respond.  Well, it's not any different when you are posed with an attacker coming to you to initiate an aggressive move.  It is a concept we call 'mo tom sic' or no greedy style.  Knowing when to wait and when to attack.



Not that I never thought of it, just don't hear it a lot...but I haven't been back in the forums til recently. Goes back to what I was saying in the other thread, its not blocking or chasing down attacks....The famous 'structure' of Wing Chun is a Defensive structure first. The defensive structure controls(Chum Kil) and offensives are launched off of that structure.


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## profesormental (Sep 12, 2010)

Greetings.

I agree with Mook Jong man in this post.

Wing Chun works best when surviving attacks from people that want to do you harm, not compete with you in a matched contest.

Thus sparring, in the normal, sporting sense, is not very optimal in the context of ingraining self defense skills.

Controlled sparring designed to simulate self defense scenarios for specific assaults is much better alternative in which to evolve the Wing Chun drills into applications.

There is much more to it, yet this is the core idea.

Hope that helps.

Juan Mercado


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## cwk (Sep 12, 2010)

profmental,
I'd say we really need to train both the  kind drills your talking about and full contact sparring. each develops different skills that are needed for fighting.
as much as we'd like to think, nobody is perfect and in a real physical exchange, the chances are that we're going to get hit. Sparring is a good way to get used to taking a hit or two and not freaking out. sometimes after someone gets hit, the adrenaline rush alone is enough to freak them out if they're not used to it. This can be mistaken for fear and they pretty much beat themselves by second guessing, freezing up or panicking instead of accepting and utilizing the adrenaline to their advantage.
Just last night i somehow ended up in a confrontation with a drunk that could have turned nasty. He was stood there snarling in my face and calling me all sorts of stuff. This was completely out of the blue and so, when the adrenaline rush came, I wasn't really prepared and just for a moment I was thinking " holy ****, why am I shaking?" and then it hit me " ah, that's right! I'm just getting angry. time for a few deep breaths." 
Anyway, I controlled the adrenaline and spoke firmly but not too aggressive or passive to the guy and it seemed to do the trick. 
The thing I'm getting at is. If I wasn't used to that feeling and I'd have froze and looked to passive, I reckon that drunk would have taken advantage and  attacked me. on the other hand if I'd have let the adrenaline take over my emotions the other way, with anger and lashed out,I would have got myself into a situation that could have been, and was, avoided by control.


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## mook jong man (Sep 12, 2010)

cwk said:


> profmental,
> I'd say we really need to train both the kind drills your talking about and full contact sparring. each develops different skills that are needed for fighting.
> as much as we'd like to think, nobody is perfect and in a real physical exchange, the chances are that we're going to get hit. Sparring is a good way to get used to taking a hit or two and not freaking out. sometimes after someone gets hit, the adrenaline rush alone is enough to freak them out if they're not used to it. This can be mistaken for fear and they pretty much beat themselves by second guessing, freezing up or panicking instead of accepting and utilizing the adrenaline to their advantage.
> Just last night i somehow ended up in a confrontation with a drunk that could have turned nasty. He was stood there snarling in my face and calling me all sorts of stuff. This was completely out of the blue and so, when the adrenaline rush came, I wasn't really prepared and just for a moment I was thinking " holy ****, why am I shaking?" and then it hit me " ah, that's right! I'm just getting angry. time for a few deep breaths."
> ...


 
Absolutely , contact is a very important part of your training if only for the fact that you are desensitised to it and wont end up on the ground in the fetal position crying like a baby when you do cop a hit in a real situation.

But I believe that scenario type training is more effective in getting you better accustomed to the stress of a real encounter.

In a sparring match your opponent generally doesn't have an angry expression on his face and is not getting in your face swearing and hurling abuse at you.

These extra things can add a whole new dimension of stress and emotion to the situation.

Sometimes when practicing these scenarios with a snarling , swearing , abusive role playing partner you will be surprised what it brings out in people.

When I first experienced it at a seminar quite some years ago I got so hyped up that I double palm striked my partner in the chest so hard that he went back , slid all the way along on a wooden floor and hit the wall.

That was because he was in my face swearing and screaming at me , I didn't see a training partner he was just something that had to be removed from my personal space. 

But after a few more sessions of this type of training you become desensitised to the swearing and abuse , you learn to use well practiced dialogue to either de-escalate or distract for a pre-emptive strike.

You become very clinical and start to formulate strategy based on what targets are open and the range of the opponent.

You also learn to execute your techniques from a non threatening guard , because a Wing Chun guard will just alert your opponent and potential witnesses that you are a trained martial artist.

The scenarios can be about anything , we tend to use ones ones like " Hey you @#$%%$ you took my parking space " things of that sort .

Just remember to put up a non threatening guard , maintain distance from the attacker , the defender uses calming language , the person playing the bad guy swears and hurls abuse as realistically as possible.

Sometimes the de-escalation will work and the role playing partner will walk away , other times it won't and the defender will launch a pre-emptive strike coupled with a bit of random brain engagement dialogue that will distract the attacker and act as a trigger for the defender because it has been practiced many times. 

Other times the role playing attacker will launch his own random attack which the defender must counter with his Wing Chun techniques executed from the non threatening guard.


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## profesormental (Sep 12, 2010)

Greetings.

Mr. cwk, I totally agree that full sparring is very VERY important, as it teaches A LOT.

Yet the sparring situation and mentality is NOT the same as the self defense, and the attacks/strategies/tactics in a match/duel/sparring are different by their very nature.

The objectives are different.

The environmental parameters are different.

Thus the ways to handle them OPTIMALLY are different.

Does that make sense?

They should both be trained, yet Wing Chun shines in self defense against attacks meant to do serious bodily injury, not in full contact free sparring matches.

I teach Control and Arrest courses for Law enforcement... and if I say I will control and arrest you, my tactics are different than to blast away, since my attackers or the person I have to arrest has a differing skill level, attitude, threat levels and objectives.

The positions I will use are different from those that will give me points in grappling matches. Consequently, the psychological aspect and the reality of arrest and custody are different than a referee or training hall setting.

Note that I'm agreeing with you. To the point that we end up training control and arrest scenarios with full resisting partners with differing threat levels and such.

Yet it is not free sparring. It is a controlled "sparring" drill with specific teaching and skill development objectives.

Hope it makes better sense now. I'm glad you're safe and didn't have to destroy that drunk punk, even though it might've been epic... 

Thanks for your post and views. It is important for sharing and learning.

Juan Mercado

Control and Arrest for Law Enforcement and Responsible Citizens


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## cwk (Sep 12, 2010)

Thanks Prof.
like I said in my other post, I believe we really need to be doing both the situational drills and full contact sparring. The drills are an excellent tool if done the way you and Mook describe, with snarling faces,foul language and full contact. The problem arises when these drills are done half hearted, smiling instead of snarling, worrying about hurting the other persons feelings when shouting at them,etc and using too much protective gear. 
Don't get me wrong protective gear is a must for the most part. It allows the students to train with a decent level of force without getting injured every week but too much of this type of training can get the student into the wrong frame of mind and they might become a bit "cavalier" when taking shots off their opponent, especially to the body.
 When the time comes for them to have to do it for real, they might not cover up properly and then when they get hit, the full force of that strike enters their body and it's pain/ adrenaline shock time again.
just my tuppence worth.


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## cwk (Sep 13, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> the defender will launch a pre-emptive strike coupled with a bit of random brain engagement dialogue that will distract the attacker and act as a trigger for the defender because it has been practiced many times.



The old " ask him a random question, then chin him" technique. a personal favourite of mine. lol.


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