# Civilian Defensive Tactics



## Indie12 (Mar 29, 2011)

I was asked by my department to put together a Civilian Defensive Tactics course for EMS providers! 

I have a few things to include in the course such as 

- Use of Force
- Legal Apsects
- Control Techniques
- Avoidance, Awareness, Escape
- Strikes
- Weapons Disarment and Retention

My question is (especially for any Law Enforcement Folks) what would you include in a Defensive Tactics (in general) course?


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 29, 2011)

Weapons of opportunity.  They're quite well armed with objects that can be used as weapons and/or defensive shields, if they look at it that way.

The use of restraints.  Improvised and actual.

Crowd control.  From mob psychology to using a command voice to gain attention and cooperation.

Threat evaluation and avoidance.  There are places in the USA where ambulances and first-responders get rocks thrown at them when they enter a neighborhood.  Response?  They no longer enter those neighborhoods.  In the event of serious civil disorder, it may become necessary to pick and choose whom they will assist and under what terms they will engage; their lives are important also.


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## jks9199 (Mar 29, 2011)

What is the purpose of the course?  What situations are these first responders likely to encounter?  What legal authority do they have?  Is the goal to restrain and detain combative patients or simply to escape to a point of safety while they call in the cavalry AKA the cops?

In my area, fire & rescue typically stages at a potentially violent scene until the cops have contained the situation.  I don't know if they receive any real defensive tactics training, but generally, if they're having to fight, they're mostly trying to get out so that the cops can get in, or restrain a combative patient.

The program you develop needs to take into account the actual circumstances that your people will face, the tools they have available, and the constraints they work under.  You also need to review the policies and procedures of the agency.


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## Indie12 (Mar 30, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Weapons of opportunity. They're quite well armed with objects that can be used as weapons and/or defensive shields, if they look at it that way.
> 
> The use of restraints. Improvised and actual.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks... I had this conversation (well I tried) in a EMS forum and pretty much got kicked out of the forum. Guess the concept of even 'thinking' about EMS learning some basic awareness techniques (I.E. through Defensive Tactics) isn't acceptable by their standards...


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## Indie12 (Mar 30, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> What is the purpose of the course? What situations are these first responders likely to encounter? What legal authority do they have? Is the goal to restrain and detain combative patients or simply to escape to a point of safety while they call in the cavalry AKA the cops?
> 
> In my area, fire & rescue typically stages at a potentially violent scene until the cops have contained the situation. I don't know if they receive any real defensive tactics training, but generally, if they're having to fight, they're mostly trying to get out so that the cops can get in, or restrain a combative patient.
> 
> ...


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## chinto (Apr 7, 2011)

In my state all EMS  ( first responders and EMT through PA) are considered public safety officers.  If you assualt them its the same as hitting a cop. ..   

but you must consider the departments policys, and also like was said, they tend to stage till the cops come. They do absolutly NO ONE any good if they become the next casulty!


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## Indie12 (Apr 8, 2011)

chinto said:


> In my state all EMS ( first responders and EMT through PA) are considered public safety officers. If you assualt them its the same as hitting a cop. ..
> 
> but you must consider the departments policys, and also like was said, they tend to stage till the cops come. They do absolutly NO ONE any good if they become the next casulty!


 
(Were not considered public safety officers and unfortunately assulting EMS in our state isn't considered the same as assulting LEO).

Like I said in my area Law Enforcement response times are not short, the longest I've seen a Law Enforcement Officer be able to respond was 2 1/2 hours. This was during a domestic violence call. We ended up going in without LEO arrival cause the patient went into shock.


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## chinto (Apr 10, 2011)

wow, no legal protection really then.... well then I would see what you can do to teach them to survive with out violating Department policy .....

I would also look into lobbying for some kind of similar protection under law like my state has.  most people might think twice if they thought it would get them in the kind of trouble that punching a LEO would...


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## gbkks (Dec 6, 2012)

Indie12 said:


> I was asked by my department to put together a Civilian Defensive Tactics course for EMS providers!
> 
> I have a few things to include in the course such as
> 
> ...



I had this same request of last week by my administration. I would be greatly interested on what you came up with. Would you please email me at gbkks2000@hotmail.com so that I can pick your brain on this.


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## punisher73 (Dec 6, 2012)

It all comes down to liability for the EMS carriers.  If you train them on "defensive tactics" and they strike a patient then it is a huge lawsuit waiting to happen and like all cases of "self-defense", it is a legal DEFENSE that YOU have to prove.

I'm NOT saying that EMS shouldn't be given tools to deal with things, but you might want to talk with some local aikido instructors on blending techniques and redirections and get aways.  Again, it comes back to your state and the law.  Police do not have the "duty to retreat" when confronted with a hostile situation.  In many states, as a civilian, you are going to be operating on a whole other set of principles so LE defensive tactics may not be the best option to use.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 6, 2012)

What bill said, along with defusing the situation, and how to take control of the situation. Not just crowd control, but also control over other EMS providers to prevent them from panicking. (would include how not to panic, but not sure you can really teach that in a course effectively, but if you have a way, add that in.
Also agree with Chinto-you really should try to get them more protection. If they're somewhere, it's important they can do their job, so they need to be protected while doing it, either through legal punishments for harming them, having LEO's travel with them, or, preferably, both!


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## Chris Parker (Dec 7, 2012)

gbkks said:


> I had this same request of last week by my administration. I would be greatly interested on what you came up with. Would you please email me at gbkks2000@hotmail.com so that I can pick your brain on this.



For the record, "Indie12" no longer has posting access to this site, due to a range of reasons, which is effective as of about 6 months ago. It is doubtful that you'll get a response from them.


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## seasoned (Dec 7, 2012)

High on the list is to deescalate the situation, with any kind of physical force as a last resort. Even as a last resort the physical force should only be to control the situation with the least amount of injury. 
The greater skill set here is to read the subject correctly and apply the appropriate response. I would definitely add non-verbal communication (body language) to the list. I'm referring to ours as well as theirs. 

Well worth looking into.


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## chinto (Dec 14, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> It all comes down to liability for the EMS carriers.  If you train them on "defensive tactics" and they strike a patient then it is a huge lawsuit waiting to happen and like all cases of "self-defense", it is a legal DEFENSE that YOU have to prove.
> 
> I'm NOT saying that EMS shouldn't be given tools to deal with things, but you might want to talk with some local aikido instructors on blending techniques and redirections and get aways.  Again, it comes back to your state and the law.  Police do not have the "duty to retreat" when confronted with a hostile situation.  In many states, as a civilian, you are going to be operating on a whole other set of principles so LE defensive tactics may not be the best option to use.



In my state you have no duty to retreat. thank God. but yes you will want to look at the liability thing. However I would put an emphasis on better tried by 12 then carried by 6 or living crippled .. 

That said you have to not put them in a position where they are legally screwed. we were taught to stage if there was a reason to think it was a violent or hazardous situation!  After all you do NO ONE any Good if you are a casualty too.  So tell them to TRUST THEIR GUT!! if that little voice says " GET OUT! ITS GOING SOUR!!" To fallow that little voice if they can!


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## szorn (Dec 16, 2012)

Indie12 said:


> I was asked by my department to put together a Civilian Defensive Tactics course for EMS providers!
> 
> I have a few things to include in the course such as
> 
> ...



I realize this is an old thread but for anyone else looking to develop a program for EMS providers I would suggest looking into DT4EMS. It's a program already created specifically for this purpose by an actual EMS provider. It's been endorsed by several states and it's a solid program. I looked at getting certified in this program many years ago but never got around to it.

Steve


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