# Power shots in Kenpo



## MisterMike (Sep 19, 2003)

I was wondering what people thought about Kenpo techniques and ensuring power in their strikes. Do you feel there is a trade-off in power and speed?

Can you really hit effectively if you are moving so fast it's almost blurring?

Can you strike your desired tagets if you dedicate full body mass in each strike, or will the person not be there, either by you moving him or your slower speed does not allow it?

Hoping to get the Kenpo wheels turning..hehehe..


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## satans.barber (Sep 19, 2003)

It takes time, but look at someone like Master Tatum:

http://www.ltatum.com/movies/TatumTOWSep1Med.wmv

If that's not immense power coupled with immense speed, I don't know what is!

Ian.


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## jeffkyle (Sep 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *It takes time, but look at someone like Master Tatum:
> 
> http://www.ltatum.com/movies/TatumTOWSep1Med.wmv
> ...



I love that Drill!


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## ProfessorKenpo (Sep 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *I was wondering what people thought about Kenpo techniques and ensuring power in their strikes. Do you feel there is a trade-off in power and speed?
> 
> Can you really hit effectively if you are moving so fast it's almost blurring?
> ...



Do you really have to engage with full mass on every strike?   Minor and Major Moves applies thruout the curriculum.  

Minor Move- Minor effect

Minor Move-Major effect

Major Move-Minor effect

Major Move-Major effect 

I don't need to engage mass when doing eye rakes or finger whips but they can have a pretty substanstial effect.    Same with checks, you've got passive and active, do you need to employ full mass with an active ck?    What about Borrowed force added to your existing strike?    Too many variables to put this in one category.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Robbo (Sep 19, 2003)

That's all I have to say.

Rob


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## MisterMike (Sep 19, 2003)

That looked more like a drill than a technique. Also, I don't look at a reverse handsword as a major shot.

I would however call that drill an example of moving fast. If the groin shot was also powerful, he would have bent that guy over.

I guess a case in point would be..hmm..let me think of something most of you can refer to...oh...The Perfect Weapon. They were running Five Swords so fast the opponent wasn't even moving. The dummy was still standing straight up! That was an example of running a technique fast, and not with maximum power.

I think Clyde is getting on target with an answer regarding major/minor shots and the desired results from each. This to me makes the most sense, and is how I learned as well. At some point in a technique, there is a move that should end it. It shouldn't take all 20 blocks, parries, punches, strikes, kicks, (and flicks to the eyes..lol) whatever to take somebody down, unless he's reallll big.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Sep 19, 2003)

http://www.akki.com/vegas/september2003/video_5words.htm

http://www.akki.com/vegas/september2003/video_5words2.htm

http://www.akki.com/vegas/september2003/video_mills1978.htm

http://www.akki.com/vegas/september2003/video_timing.htm

Ck these out.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 19, 2003)

Um...while I generally agree, I would note that actually killing John on that clip would not be an indication of power. It'd be an indication of really crummy control--and unless I'm mistaken, one of the first reasons to learn control in the martial arts precisely so that when the times comes, you can really, really hit them.


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## MisterMike (Sep 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Um...while I generally agree, I would note that actually killing John on that clip would not be an indication of power. It'd be an indication of really crummy control--and unless I'm mistaken, one of the first reasons to learn control in the martial arts precisely so that when the times comes, you can really, really hit them. *



Yes, but what are you going to learn about power in a tap-tap drill?

My sister used to play patty-cake, but she really knows nothing about Karate.

The initial reasoning behind my post was because, and LOL, those videos Clyde posted are a perfect example LOL, you can hit someone with power, and manipulate where their body goes, or you can slap them until your hands are pink and leave them still standing.

I think I've figured out which method I prefer.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Sep 19, 2003)

> The initial reasoning behind my post was because, and LOL, those videos Clyde posted are a perfect example LOL, you can hit someone with power, and manipulate where their body goes, or you can slap them until your hands are pink and leave them still standing.
> 
> I think I've figured out which method I prefer.



Interesting, I've got video of Parker tapping people.  Does that mean he can't hit with power?  If we follow your reasoning and laid into our "training partners" with everything we had each time we did a technique, none of us would have any training partners.  There is a time and a place for experimentation with contact.  The guys I train with understand this so naturally there are some nights when we work sequence and mechanics and some nights where we focus on putting a little extra juice on the strikes. 

I don't know how you can learn to make the techniques work unless you are willing to hammer a little bit.  However, as the partnership goes you have to be willing to take a little as well, that's how you learn.  Unfortunately it has been my experience that the ones who like to TRY and hit hard are the ones who can't take a hit for crap.  

Anyway, The clips shown, in all cases, were merely a demonstration not an actual fight.  I'm willing to bet that in all cases the participants would behave and perform quite differently if it had been. 



> I was wondering what people thought about Kenpo techniques and ensuring power in their strikes. Do you feel there is a trade-off in power and speed?
> 
> Can you really hit effectively if you are moving so fast it's almost blurring?



There is a huge difference in speed for the sake of speed and what I would call functional speed.  Functional speed is a state of motion with a purpose, this obviously means many things to many people but what can ya do.  You really only need a few inches of movement to hit really hard assuming you have decent to good body mechanics (most people don't realize this, because most people can't do it).  

Also, this idea of speed is totally subjective.  What I consider using economy of motion, appropriate targeting, appropriate method of execution, appropriate body mechanics, 3-dimensional projection, optimal patterns of movement with optimal muscle contraction sequences somebody else will call fast.  I just call it normal.  Now I agree there are alot of people who try to move fast just for the sake of moving fast, but this is because they haven't been taught or they don't understand the required principles and mechanics for increasing their speed.  Don't get me wrong, I don't know all there is to know, but from this line of questioning I'm willing to bet that I know more about it than you do.

So the answer to your question is yes, you can hit hard while moving at mind numbing speeds (remember the term fast is subjective) as long as you understand the appropriate principles and concepts.


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## Elfan (Sep 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> * Do you feel there is a trade-off in power and speed? *



Power= Force * velocity

You do the math.


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## MisterMike (Sep 19, 2003)

> I don't know all there is to know, but from this line of questioning I'm willing to bet that I know more about it than you do



Isn't it quite possible that people asking questions on a Bulletin Board are doing so becuase they would like to hear from people, potentially those who know more and are able to answer the question?

I'm not sure why you had to try to place yourself above me in writing - maybe it's the same complex commonly found in the many West coast Kenpo practitioners I've met.

At least you can agree that there is a thing as too fast - something many on this board apparently can't.

My question was not one originating from ignorance, but rather to hear what people say. For you to try and use it as a stab at me is just rediculous. My reasoning never lead to the conclusion you have to "lay into our partners." Your baseless line of questioning from your skewed vision really has only led me to conclude, yes, you are a Kenpo Yahoo.


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## MisterMike (Sep 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *Power= Force * velocity
> 
> You do the math. *



The math is easy, thanks. A linear expression like that is something an 8th grader can learn, but it seems some "Kenpoists" feel like they are Ed Parker's prodigy when they can type them into a message.

But I'm beginning to not expect much more from these posts.


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## pete (Sep 19, 2003)

hey mike,

i couldn't agree with you more on multiple counts.  

first, SPEED KILLS!  I've been able to adapt my Tai Chi practice to Kenpo, where precision and unity in motion are used to influence training.  I'm working on formalizing specific drills and practices to help introduce this to others.  I find that speed is emphasized to early in the development of Kenpo skills, which results frequently in sloppy execution and loss of intent and targeting in techniques.

But, dare I say, this be Cross-Training, and may have a degenerative effect on the complete art of Kenpo.

I'd hate to lump in the whole California scene with a couple of guys we encounter here, 'cause i did meet several out at the Boston IKCs that were alright in my book!

Keep up the good posts!


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## Michael Billings (Sep 19, 2003)

Isn't it mass X acceleration = Power ??


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## kenpo_cory (Sep 19, 2003)

"I'm not fast, I just use my body efficiently which creates an illusion of speed." Like the "slow" receiver in football whose always open, it's not the speed but the effective proper execution that kills you.

Ed parker Sr.


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## MisterMike (Sep 19, 2003)

Force = Mass X acceleration (as you accelerate, Power increases)

Power  = Work / Time (as time shortens, you have more power)


This is 4 years of Engineering school talking...but they, what do I know.  

All in good fun,


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## Elfan (Sep 19, 2003)

My point was that speed is a component of power.  They increase together, not in an inverse relashionship.

All else being constant, a faster strike is a more powerful strike.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Sep 20, 2003)

> My question was not one originating from ignorance, but rather to hear what people say. For you to try and use it as a stab at me is just rediculous. My reasoning never lead to the conclusion you have to "lay into our partners." Your baseless line of questioning from your skewed vision really has only led me to conclude, yes, you are a Kenpo Yahoo.



Well let's see, there was this statement regarding one video.



> I would however call that drill an example of moving fast. If the groin shot was also powerful, he would have bent that guy over.



Since I already covered the idea that this was a demonstration video, I'll leave it alone. Oh yeah, there was also this one.



> The initial reasoning behind my post was because, and LOL, those videos Clyde posted are a perfect example LOL, you can hit someone with power, and manipulate where their body goes, or you can slap them until your hands are pink and leave them still standing.
> 
> I think I've figured out which method I prefer.



I wonder where my "rediculous" thoughts could have emerged from.  

You mentioned that you have a background in engineering which means that at the very least you took some form of engineering physics, statics, and dynamics.  Perhaps if you went back and looked over some of that course material you could answer your own question.  Let me ask you this, if you have an object following a circular path of action at a given velocity, what could you do to increase the velocity of that particular object?  How about decreasing the radius of it's circular path in mid flight.  Now think about how this might apply to kenpo. 

The problem is that everyone tries to explain things in terms of power, kinetic energy, and the like. Unfortunately, most of these people don't really understand the physics well enough to take it beyond the 8th grade level.  If you want to understand the idea of speed and what you refer to as "power" then perhaps you should review the concepts of colliding bodies like, linear (circular) momentum, coefficient of restitution, moments of force, structural analysis, etc.  If you hammer through something like the human mandible along the tip of the jaw then you create a large moment of force at the hinge and supporting muscles.  Would this not have more of an effect than hitting higher up? Well it depends on what you are trying to accomplish, but I'm sure we've all seen a boxer or PRIDE fighter get clipped in the first round because they got hit "just right."


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## WhiteTiger (Sep 20, 2003)

I suggest reading this article, I think it can be of benefit to this thread.
http://www.georgiakenpo.net/articles/article_2.htm


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## RCastillo (Sep 20, 2003)

All you math guys, OUTTA HERE! next thing you know, Mr. Parsons will come in here, and I'll flunk again!


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Sep 20, 2003)

I've spent too many years away from an academic atmosphere to effectively argue the math, but I would like to post this for consideration.
From what I've seen, some (not all) Kenpo practitioners sacrifice not power, but penetration in their zeal to acquire blinding speed.  While the techniques may be thrown with all of the proper body mechanics, in seeking to achieve extreme speed practitioners may shortchange their technique.  In order to blast in tech#2, they sometimes pull back tech#1 too soon.  Time, practice, good instruction, and experimentation with striking objects such as heavy bags and focus mits will reveal if the strike is effective.  This is just part of the ongoing learning process.  It's similar to throwing the twist in a punch.  Some throw it too soon, others too late.  Proper practice will eventually refine the technique to an acceptable degree.  Of course, improvement is always possible.  After twenty-eight years, I'm still working on improving speed/power and still fine-tuning my punch.  I'll probably never get to perfection, but staying on the path is what's important, in my humble opinion. :asian:


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## MisterMike (Sep 20, 2003)

> Perhaps if you went back and looked over some of that course material you could answer your own question.



That's the thing though, we studied inanimate objects, which cannot feel pain. 



> If you want to understand the idea of speed and what you refer to as "power" then perhaps you should review the concepts of colliding bodies like, linear (circular) momentum, coefficient of restitution, moments of force, structural analysis, etc.



I agree, but to put together a study of this magnitude would require a substantial effort. I guess I was looking for "real-life" experience. But it seems there are 2 schools of thought on this. One for speed, and the other for proper mechanics/power.

Thanks,


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## M F (Sep 21, 2003)

> But it seems there are 2 schools of thought on this. One for speed, and the other for proper mechanics/power.



I think you may have forgotten the third school of thought on this one.  The one that says that speed + proper mechanics = more power than either alone.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Sep 21, 2003)

Randy Strausbaugh- excellent post



> MF
> I think you may have forgotten the third school of thought on this one. The one that says that speed + proper mechanics = more power than either alone.



Now there is a good equation to remember. 



> I agree, but to put together a study of this magnitude would require a substantial effort. I guess I was looking for "real-life" experience.



Well what's great about kenpo is that a "study of this magnitude" only yields results if you can actually WORK the physics.  This is to say, that in the realm of kenpo all your book knowledge means jack-crap unless you can actually put it to the edge of the hand and foot (so to speak).  I enjoy talking about the physics of kenpo, but physics is merely a mathematical model used to describe an event.  Regardless of mathematical understanding, this event will still occur.  However it is much easier to duplicate a specific event when you do understand what's happening.

just my thoughts.


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## don bohrer (Sep 21, 2003)

> I was wondering what people thought about Kenpo techniques and ensuring power in their strikes. Do you feel there is a trade-off in power and speed?



Mike, sometimes yes.

But, I must stress the purpose of every move in a technique is not to hit with power, but rather to manipulate and control our opponent. Issuing power comes from a combination of the basics of karate: strong stance, posture, effective movement patterns, relaxation, strength, timing and strong will or spirit. If you use to much speed and cause a break down in one of these principles then power does suffer. 



> Can you really hit effectively if you are moving so fast it's almost blurring?



I like what an Aidiko Instructor said in Budo magazine. He said technique should be continuous and unbroken so you allow no chance for your opponent to counter. To much speed however can break the rhythm of a technique and prevent you from properly executing it. In speed drills we often don't see the punctuation that makes a technique work. Punctuation would be the slowing down, speeding up, and re-adjusting to match the situation and reactions our opponent. It's what you have to do to make technique work. Speed drills tend to ignore this. 



> Can you strike your desired tagets if you dedicate full body mass in each strike, or will the person not be there, either by you moving him or your slower speed does not allow it?



Mike you know the answer to this one! Excessive power can kill technique just like to much speed can. Kenpo is not only about speed but also about choosing the right tool for the job. A backfist for example properly executed contains the right mixture of speed, mass, and power for a backfist. Just like a properly executed reverse punch contains a different mixture of those attributes. Speed and power are both control tools when used at the right time and in the right combination.

don


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## Doc (Sep 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *I was wondering what people thought about Kenpo techniques and ensuring power in their strikes. Do you feel there is a trade-off in power and speed?
> 
> Can you really hit effectively if you are moving so fast it's almost blurring?
> *


*

Of course.




			Can you strike your desired tagets if you dedicate full body mass in each strike, or will the person not be there, either by you moving him or your slower speed does not allow it?
		
Click to expand...


Properly executed movements do not always, nor should they require "full body mass." Blunt force trauma, although efective, is the lowest level of execution and is a method that is available to anyone of any age, skilled or not. Training to simply hit "quicker and harder" is to ignore the higher eschelon of any art, kenpo included.*


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## dcence (Sep 22, 2003)

> I guess I was looking for "real-life" experience.



Good thing 2 of the 3 people in those video are experienced  security and the other trains cops.  Their real-life experience together is more than what you sometimes find in the black belt division at tournaments.  Having worked out with all three, I  know sometimes pink hands lead to black and blue bodies.  The 1st black has more real-life experience than some of today's association heads.

There is a time for penetration and a time for pulling.  Between training partners the latter is usually appreciated.



> I think you may have forgotten the third school of thought on this one. The one that says that speed + proper mechanics = more power than either alone.



This is exactly right.   Speed without proper mechanics isn't much better than the best mechanics in the world without the speed to get to the target.  Some (not all) diminish the need for tremendous speed because they lack it.  (Me, I don't have it, but aspire.  ) Between a fast fighter and a larger slower attacker, give me the larger slower one.

If you ever saw Mr. Parker move, it was fast -- I mean fast.  His blackbelts I have seen as well.  I never heard him say, "you really ought to slow that down a little."  If I remember correctly in Mr. Parker's principles for improved techniques, speed was one of the first priorities and came BEFORE power.  People react faster than you think they will, in fact you are always behind if you even have to think about it.

Derek


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## MartialArtsGuy (Sep 22, 2003)

Doc

In your opinion, what is the higher eschelon of an art?


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## Doc (Sep 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtsGuy _
> *Doc
> 
> In your opinion, what is the higher eschelon of an art? *



It has always been promoted in the martial arts that true "masters" get the most done with the least effort, and have the ability to modulate and control destruction. Subdueing without injury or complete and deadly destruction as they desire. The latter is relatively easy. Anyone can pound your head until you die, even if they have no skill, so what's special about being a black belt?


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## MartialArtsGuy (Sep 22, 2003)

Excellent Doc

Thank you sir. 

I think it was best for everyone to hear it from you, rather than from me.


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## bdparsons (Sep 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *All you math guys, OUTTA HERE! next thing you know, Mr. Parsons will come in here, and I'll flunk again! *



(Or that other Parsons guy?)

Bill Parsons


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## Doc (Sep 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtsGuy _
> *Excellent Doc
> 
> Thank you sir.
> ...



Well Sir, if you think about it -

The evolution of mass martial arts in this country was, and to a certain extent with the general public, still is based on some form of "competition." "Competition is about bigger faster stronger, and therefore they think more "devestating." 

There is still a tendancy among those who should know better to base ones prowess on ones ability to "spar" which they call "fighting." Of course it is not fighting because fighting has no rules, and therefore circumstances change significantly. Techniques a person might try in a sparring match, he would not consider in a "real fight."

But that is how the art is "marketed" and competition skills somehow equate to "fighting ability" for many.

Although I am not discounting such learned skills, they are a loooong way from knowledgeable matial arts. How about Sapp? Ex-football player who in less than a year is the biggest thing in competition. Little skill, but plenty of size, and strength.

Most of the next generation of "masters" made their reps in competition in the sixties and seventies. The previous generation of masters, including Ed Parker and others, did not believe in sparring beyond a very small part of the curriculum.

But then again in proliferation, marketing is extremely important. Look what the Gracie's did. "All fights go to the ground." Not!


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## MisterMike (Sep 22, 2003)

Thank you for all of your help so far. I've read some really good responses. There seems to be a couple of schools of thought regarding Kenpo techniques and I think that these can be taylored to the individual.

1. Giving priority to Speed. It's good to stay ahead in the technique, controlling your opponent yet having the ability to change the technique when necessary.

2. Giving priority to Power. It's power that will ultimately hurt and break your opponent. By using power with controlled speed, your strikes will not get ahead of your opponent's body reactions.

It seems quite logical then, that there are graduations between these 2 styles, and it is really up to the practitioner to decide:

a) what works best for them, depending on their physical makeup
b) what works best on the attacker, who could be skilled/unskilled/small/large/etc.

I think that training the same way on the same opponents will ineviteably work against you. This be knownst now, it opens a rather large window for us to look. And this is only within Kenpo. There are other styles that do not even strike, and I'm sure my summation will only change over time.


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## Klondike93 (Sep 22, 2003)

Vlad has a new strikes video out if you'd like to look at the way the Russians strike and see how you could incorporate it in to your kenpo.  They have a sample clip if you would like to look:

Strikes clip


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## Michael Billings (Sep 22, 2003)

... in that speed and power are both important, but knowledge of how is not as important as the knowledge of why.  (Forgive me if I am off target here .... just a little pun.)

No matter how fast you are, you have to know where to strike, and in what manner to effectively disable an opponent.  Reference someone my size cracking an opponent's sternum, as v. someone about 110 lbs. sticking their finger in an opponent's eye up to the knuckle (yes, I know this is graphic, but I am in the middle of doing a 6-week women's self-defense seminar right now, and this example is a tactical example).  How about a half-fist or tiger's mouth to the throat with 14 or so lbs. of pressure, correctly applied?  

Power is much less of an issue, although we should all strive to maximize the relaxed tesion-relaxation whipping, exploding power that was Mr. Parker.  With complete knowledge of how to "create" additional application of force, through the Principles and Concepts.

Creating borrowed force, "blurring" hands (?),  well maybe not hands, but the continuous explosive pressure of hands and body, and a thourough knowledge of the dynamics of motion, physiology, and kinetic potential should stand you in good stead.  

Flow first, power later ... but at some point, ya gotta have the power too.  Not the same thing as "strength" at all.

-MB


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## Doc (Sep 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *... in that speed and power are both important, but knowledge of how is not as important as the knowledge of why.  (Forgive me if I am off target here .... just a little pun.)
> 
> No matter how fast you are, you have to know where to strike, and in what manner to effectively disable an opponent.  Reference someone my size cracking an opponent's sternum, as v. someone about 110 lbs. sticking their finger in an opponent's eye up to the knuckle (yes, I know this is graphic, but I am in the middle of doing a 6-week women's self-defense seminar right now, and this example is a tactical example).  How about a half-fist or tiger's mouth to the throat with 14 or so lbs. of pressure, correctly applied?
> ...


I agree completely with one exception of I guess another difference. I was taught "Power first, flow later" by Parker. Go figure. I never thought about that difference until you mentioned it.


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## don bohrer (Sep 23, 2003)

Klondike,
I can't watch the video of people slapping each other around. 

Do I need a russian video codec or something? :shrug:


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## RCastillo (Sep 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by don bohrer _
> *Klondike,
> I can't watch the video of people slapping each other around.
> 
> Do I need a russian video codec or something? :shrug: *



No, you need Tracy Kenpo!-vampfeed-


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## dcence (Sep 23, 2003)

> Thank you for all of your help so far. I've read some really good responses. There seems to be a couple of schools of thought regarding Kenpo techniques and I think that these can be taylored to the individual.  1. Giving priority to Speed. It's good to stay ahead in the technique, controlling your opponent yet having the ability to change the technique when necessary.  2. Giving priority to Power. It's power that will ultimately hurt and break your opponent. By using power with controlled speed, your strikes will not get ahead of your opponent's body reactions.



At the risk of brokenrecordism I really think power and speed are inextricably intertwined.  And the thing that makes sense of it all and harmonizes your speed/power with your opponent is timing.  Speed/power without timing is like a song where all the notes are played at on the same beat.  I won't buy that CD.

Derek


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## don bohrer (Sep 23, 2003)

> No, you need Tracy Kenpo



Is that like 3d googles or something?


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## Klondike93 (Sep 23, 2003)

> Do I need a russian video codec or something?



naw, just windows media player


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## don bohrer (Sep 23, 2003)

Chuck, 

I was using media player. I work on computers all day, and had no motivation to fix it. Besides last night my kid brother wouldn't shut up!  But tonight I'll watch Russians slaughter each other!


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## Klondike93 (Sep 23, 2003)

> But tonight I'll watch Russians slaughter each other!



Enjoy, it's a small clip but there's some good hitting going on by Mikal and Vlad.


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## Bill Lear (Sep 23, 2003)

> *Originally posted by MisterMike *
> 
> _Yes, but what are you going to learn about power in a tap-tap drill?_



Mr. Parker used to say if you can hit you can miss... I tend to agree with his statement.

I think that training with pads would help the practitioner develop power, while training with control on an actual human being (without pads) will condition a person to accurately strike targets and understand the responses dictated by those strikes.

Trust me Mike, I'm pretty sure Mr. Tatum can probably hit quite hard.


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## MisterMike (Sep 24, 2003)

> Mr. Parker used to say if you can hit you can miss... I tend to agree with his statement.
> 
> I think that training with pads would help the practitioner develop power, while training with control on an actual human being (without pads) will condition a person to accurately strike targets and understand the responses dictated by those strikes.
> 
> Trust me Mike, I'm pretty sure Mr. Tatum can probably hit quite hard.



Yes, but the drill posted was a targeting drill. It wasn't anything to do with my original question.

I agree that pads will develop you power technique, while the partner can aid you in target selection. But your partner has to be able to understand the technique as well, in order to "dummy" well and give you the right reactions. In many of the videos, the partner hardly reacts while the technique is run.


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## Klondike93 (Sep 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *Yes, but the drill posted was a targeting drill. It wasn't anything to do with my original question.
> 
> I agree that pads will develop you power technique, while the partner can aid you in target selection. But your partner has to be able to understand the technique as well, in order to "dummy" well and give you the right reactions. In many of the videos, the partner hardly reacts while the technique is run. *



Then you should either hit them harder or with proper intent. If you have to hit them harder it shouldn't be done with malice however, it should be done with good intentions or else you risk being a bully and no one will work with you. Intent should be more than just going through the motions but having the proper breathing and thought when striking that is you were really hitting to hurt the "dummy" would feel this and react accordingly.

Eh, when in doubt hit 'em harder


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## dcence (Sep 24, 2003)

> But your partner has to be able to understand the technique as well, in order to "dummy" well and give you the right reactions. In many of the videos, the partner hardly reacts while the technique is run.



My perspective on  this:  I usually try to get my partner to stand as still as possible.   If I want a reaction, I will hit them hard enough for it (normally to the body but pulling shots to the face and  neck).  If the partner tries to voluntarily react like they think they should, then they are always one step behind and that is when they really get hit, i.e., their head is coming down when it really should be going back up.  There is a lot to be said for control and limited penetration contact, but not expecting you to wait for manufactured reactions.

In our school you are free to hit to the body with a degree of penetration and force, but to the face and neck we try to pull the shots -- "try" being the operative word there.  LOL

Derek


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## Bill Lear (Sep 24, 2003)

> *Originally posted by dcence *
> _My perspective on  this:  I usually try to get my partner to stand as still as possible.   If I want a reaction, I will hit them hard enough for it (normally to the body but pulling shots to the face and  neck).  If the partner tries to voluntarily react like they think they should, then they are always one step behind and that is when they really get hit, i.e., their head is coming down when it really should be going back up.  There is a lot to be said for control and limited penetration contact, but not expecting you to wait for manufactured reactions.
> 
> In our school you are free to hit to the body with a degree of penetration and force, but to the face and neck we try to pull the shots -- "try" being the operative word there.  LOL
> ...



I have to agree with you on all points in this case. Good post!


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## kenpo2dabone (Sep 24, 2003)

After reading most of the posts in this thread it seems that people are talking about two different type of speed. One being the speed of any one strike and the other being the speed at which a person can exacute a technique. 

Given the equation that was used in one of the prior post "Force = Mass X acceleration"  it can be said that in order to hit with more force you can either increase speed or you can increase mass. To an extent it is easier to increase speed than it is to increase mass. Although, neither of these is more important than hitting with correct anatomical alliagnment and proper exacution of said strike. Therefore, I feel that it is a great idea to practice increasing the speed and proper exacution of any particular strike. However, exacuting a technique as fast as you can could make it more difficult to exacute every strike properly in the technique. When you strike a person there should be time alotted for reaction to the strike. Now I am not talking about long lengths of time but more like millisecends between strikes. That is not to say that everystrike requires this slight pause but most strikes do seem to require some type of reaction in order to open the next target. The other thing that these slight pauses allow for is adjustments that you (the person performing the technique) may need to make in the event that the person you are hitting does not react in a manner that you expect. I think that  Mr. Tatums demonstrations are just that, dementstrations. The object of any demenstration of a technique is not to hurt but is to teach. The dummies he is demenstrating on may jhave been told not to react to the strikes so that is is easier to see the targetting and paths of action on each strike rather than the effect the strikes would have. So I don't think that is fair to compare  these demonstrations to the question of power in the original post. 

Just a few thoughts,
Salute,

Mike Miller UKF


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## Doc (Sep 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo2dabone _
> *After reading most of the posts in this thread it seems that people are talking about two different type of speed. One being the speed of any one strike and the other being the speed at which a person can exacute a technique.
> 
> ... Although, neither of these is more important than hitting with correct anatomical alliagnment and proper exacution of said strike. Therefore, I feel that it is a great idea to practice increasing the speed and proper exacution of any particular strike. However, exacuting a technique as fast as you can could make it more difficult to exacute every strike properly in the technique. When you strike a person there should be time alotted for reaction to the strike. Now I am not talking about long lengths of time but more like millisecends between strikes. That is not to say that everystrike requires this slight pause but most strikes do seem to require some type of reaction in order to open the next target. The other thing that these slight pauses allow for is adjustments that you (the person performing the technique) may need to make in the event that the person you are hitting does not react in a manner that you expect...
> *



Very well stated sir.


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## WhiteTiger (Sep 25, 2003)

This is by far the best explaination of Punching Force I have seen.

Mass of the punch may be increased by using muscle tension to add the masses of the shoulder, torso, legs, and feet to the mass of the punching arm. Generally, speed decreases as effective mass increases, but, by using a sequential application of forces, such as arm, then shoulder, then hip snap, and then leg thrust, the fist is snapped out similar to a whip, without adding mass that may slow speed of the punch. Then, at moment of impact, the body tenses and adds the mass to the punch.

Focus is when a full-power, full-speed technique is aimed to terminate a point in space. Focus is not just terminating the technique at the point in space, it is also a simultaneous contracting of all muscles to add all the power and mass of the body to the technique. Maximum power occurs when all muscles of the body contract at impact. Since the impact force of a technique equals the mass times the acceleration of the attacking weapon, to reach maximum force, you must be loose and relaxed as a technique starts and progresses so you may achieve maximum acceleration, and then contract all the muscles to achieve maximum mass. Since the technique stops at the point of focus, maximum force of the technique occurs at a point just millimeters before the point of focus. After maximum power point, the fist is decelerating. Without the contraction, maximum power is not reached, therefore, if an opponent moves into a technique that was intended to stop just short of contact, the attacker can lessen the force of the impact by not contracting into the technique. When sparring, the point of focus is just short of the surface of the chin, so the opponent is not harmed. In an actual attack, the focus point is internal of the chin, so that fist is at maximum velocity when if strikes the surface of the chin and thus strikes with maximum force. 

Taking all this into consideration, which punches harder, a large person or a small person? The large person has bigger muscles and more mass, but it requires more muscle power to move the greater mass so acceleration and velocity of the punch is reduced. The smaller person has smaller muscles and less mass, but the acceleration and velocity of the punch is greater. This, striking pressures of the two punches may actually be equal. The striking force of a speeding bullet and speeding locomotive may be equal, but which would you rather be hit by?

A larger person has more reach, more mass to absorb blows, and more strength. The farther a punch travels, the more time it has to accelerate, so a larger person with longer arms may generate more power. However, it takes more time to cover the longer distance, which may give the smaller person time to avoid or block the punch. John Jerome, in his work The Sweet Spot in Time, states that large, muscular athletes are generally faster than smaller, thinner people when moving about. So, in general, a large person hits with more force than a small person.

The momentum of an object is its mass multiplied by its velocity. By adding up the momentum of all individual objects in a system, the system's total momentum can be calculated. In a "closed" system, the net momentum never changes. This is a useful fact when analyzing an impact, because we know that the total momentum of the system will be the same after the impact as it was before the impact, even though the momentum of its parts may have changed. Momentum is a "vector" quantity, which means that two equal masses moving in opposite directions with the same velocity have zero net momentum.

Energy takes many forms, such as the kinetic energy of a moving mass. Energy is a "scalar" quantity, which means that two equal masses moving at the same velocity have the same total kinetic energy, regardless of their direction of movement. The kinetic energy of an object is equal to half its mass times the square of its velocity.

Energy, like momentum, is always conserved. But, sometimes it changes from kinetic energy, which is easily observed by measuring velocities and masses, to other forms that are harder to measure, most notably heat. The process of changing kinetic energy to heat is usually damaging to the material being heated. If the material is human tissue, it can be crushed, torn, or broken by the conversion of kinetic energy to heat. If the material is wood, it will break. A process that slowly or gradually converts kinetic energy to heat is usually called friction. A process that suddenly converts kinetic energy to heat is called an inelastic collision.

Example 1: When billiard balls collide at normal speeds they suffer no measurable damage because their collisions are almost perfectly elastic. All collisions conserve momentum, but only elastic ones conserve kinetic energy. So, if one ball with a certain velocity strikes a stationary ball on-center, it will transfer all of it's momentum and kinetic energy to the stationary ball, stop, and cause the other ball to move away at the same velocity as the striking ball. If a perfectly elastic Taekwondo student struck a perfectly elastic target, the target would fly off undamaged, but with lots of kinetic energy, perhaps sustaining damage when it hits the floor. 

Example 2: If, instead of hard balls, we use balls made of soft clay, then, when one ball strikes a stationary ball, both balls will mush together and move away with half the velocity of the striking ball. The kinetic energy before the collision is MV2/2. The kinetic energy after the collision is MV2/4. Half of the kinetic energy has gone into damaging the balls. Since both balls are equally damaged, each ball got damaged in the amount MV2/8.

Example 3: If a hard ball strikes a stationary clay ball, only the clay ball will be damaged. Therefore all of the lost kinetic energy MV2/4 went into damaging the clay ball.

Example 4: If a clay ball strikes an anchored hard ball, all the momentum of the clay ball will be transferred to the earth, and all of its kinetic energy MV2/2 will be expended in damaging the clay ball. This is twice the damage of example 3, and four times the per-ball damage of example 2.

So, as a Taekwondo student, you should be as elastic as possible as protection against damage. Proper focus unites the bones, muscles, tendons, and ligaments into a structure that is better able to distribute forces elastically (non-destructively), such as pre-stressed concrete does in buildings. It also means that an onrushing opponent who is impaled on a well-rooted reverse punch will sustain more damage than a stationary opponent. The effect of having a firm stance is most important when the opponent is stepping toward you, therefore, your best strategy for causing damage is to wait for the opponent to step toward you with an attack, deflect the attack, and then use a well-rooted reverse counter punch. Colliding elastically does not transfer any kinetic energy, so it should be be avoided. An inelastic collision with the target transfers kinetic energy that damages the target rather than your striking limb. You want your victim to be damaged, not pushed backward. To cause maximum damage to an opponent, targets should be chosen for their inability to respond elastically. The ability of a target to respond elastically depends on its structure, the speed of the impact, and the area of impact pressure.

All tissues have a range of pressures over which they are capable of responding elastically. The transition from elastic response to inelastic response is called "yielding." As pressure builds in a collision between two objects, both objects are initially elastic. A striker strives to have a larger elastic domain than the target. Once the target yields, the pressure between the two objects stops increasing and starts decreasing. When we consider momentum rather than pressure, the speed at which your technique travels has a greater effect upon the collision than the mass of the technique. Therefore, maximize speed to maximize damage . If purpose of a technique is to break bone, then use a high velocity impact with a small target area. If purpose of a technique is to cause internal damage, then use a technique that will  transfer momentum.


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## Michael Billings (Sep 26, 2003)

Physics ... Kenpo has something to do with physics?  And here I got a Liberal Arts degree.  DARN.  it sure would have made life easier in Kenpo had I gone with physics.

-MB

(at least if I am talking to engineers and physicist)


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## jeffkyle (Sep 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Physics ... Kenpo has something to do with physics?  And here I got a Liberal Arts degree.  DARN.  it sure would have made life easier in Kenpo had I gone with physics.
> 
> -MB
> ...



You got a liberal arts degree?  Aren't you a judge?


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## Michael Billings (Sep 26, 2003)

The degree was in Government back in 1977 at UT-Austin, then I went to Grad school, then  .... but wait.  Why are you asking that question in this forum as v. a PM or email, and hmm...?  Why should I be answering it?  

Rather than get irritated or feel challenged I will just give a short answer.  If you are really interested, or want to pursue a career in administrative law, email, PM, or give me a call.  An administrative law judge does things like banruptcy hearings for the Feds, or insurance appeals, etc.  

I just happen to work for the Texas Board of Pardons & Paroles.  So mine is more criminal and having to do with revocation of parole for technicals and/or law violations.  My title is Hearing Analyst, so I also handle writs from district and federal courts, and I handle more appeals at my level.  I actually review our hearing officers (administrative law judges) findings and reports for legal sufficiency and content.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.  It always seems more interesting to others than to me.  Before I did this I was a therapist (as in psycho) working for MHMR, Child & Family Service, etc.  It is a weird long story how I ended up here, and way, way off topic. 

To bring us back on topic ...

...except in the meantime, I learned how to disrupt other's kinetic energy so they contributed to the impact of my strikes.  This was the one thing lacking in WhiteTiger's post that Kenpo excels at, and that is Borrowed Force.  I often tell my students that I try to get my opponent's to hit themselves against my weapons just as hard as they can.  This was a paraphrase from something Mr. Parker said in a seminar once and was something Howard Silva stressed when teaching here in Austin.

-MB


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## jeffkyle (Sep 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> .... but wait.  Why are you asking that question in this forum as v. a PM or email, and hmm...?  Why should I be answering it?
> 
> Rather than get irritated or feel challenged I will just give a short answer.



I am truly sorry!  I guess I spoke before I thunk!  It was just a weird connection between the degree and the current profession to me.  Once again.  Sorry!


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## Michael Billings (Sep 26, 2003)

And thanks for the PM.  

-MB


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## RCastillo (Sep 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *The degree was in Government back in 1977 at UT-Austin, then I went to Grad school, then  .... but wait.  Why are you asking that question in this forum as v. a PM or email, and hmm...?  Why should I be answering it?
> 
> Rather than get irritated or feel challenged I will just give a short answer.  If you are really interested, or want to pursue a career in administrative law, email, PM, or give me a call.  An administrative law judge does things like banruptcy hearings for the Feds, or insurance appeals, etc.
> ...



Great, no wonder the prisons are busting at the seams!


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## Kenpomachine (Sep 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *...except in the meantime, I learned how to disrupt other's kinetic energy so they contributed to the impact of my strikes.  This was the one thing lacking in WhiteTiger's post that Kenpo excels at, and that is Borrowed Force.  I often tell my students that I try to get my opponent's to hit themselves against my weapons just as hard as they can.  This was a paraphrase from something Mr. Parker said in a seminar once and was something Howard Silva stressed when teaching here in Austin.
> 
> -MB *



It's not lacking, he just used the physics explanation for it... and added a small example 


> It also means that an onrushing opponent who is impaled on a well-rooted reverse punch will sustain more damage than a stationary opponent.



Well, that's if what I understand as borrowed force is the same as everyone else here.


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## WhiteTiger (Sep 28, 2003)

> _This was the one thing lacking in WhiteTiger's post that Kenpo excels at, and that is Borrowed Force.  I often tell my students that I try to get my opponent's to hit themselves against my weapons just as hard as they can-MB [/B]_


_ 

You should read the article a little more carefully...

"It also means that an onrushing opponent who is impaled on a well-rooted reverse punch will sustain more damage than a stationary opponent. The effect of having a firm stance is most important when the opponent is stepping toward you, therefore, your best strategy for causing damage is to wait for the opponent to step toward you with an attack, deflect the attack, and then use a well-rooted reverse counter punch. "

I believe this excerpt from the posted article addresses the "Barrowed Force" concept._


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## pete (Sep 28, 2003)

> "It also means that an onrushing opponent who is impaled on a well-rooted reverse punch will sustain more damage than a stationary opponent. The effect of having a firm stance is most important when the opponent is stepping toward you, therefore, your best strategy for causing damage is to wait for the opponent to step toward you with an attack, deflect the attack, and then use a well-rooted reverse counter punch. "



everybody say "detour from doom"


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## Michael Billings (Sep 28, 2003)

... but to add to the "Power" explanation.  Oh well, guess I just missed the boat.

Hee-hee,
-MB:rofl:


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## ockempo (Oct 17, 2003)

Larry Tatum is sooo good. Too bad I live so far from Pasadena


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