# Some grappling advice please.



## K-man

Last night at training we were playing with knives as we do every session. My partner was a karate guy (BB) with experience in grappling and aikido. He had the knife. We were both sweating so his wrist was quite wet and slippery, same as it would be if there was blood. I managed to control the knife hand but couldn't get a lock. (I probably could have got in a kick or punch but that wasn't what we were training.) Eventually we ended up on the ground where I had side control with my left hand controlling his outstretched right arm, holding his wrist. That was his knife hand. He has far greater grappling skill than me and was able to keep me in a position where I couldn't get much advantage. I finally got the knife by muscling it from his hand (who says blunt knives don't cut? ) but I feel that I should have been able to get a lock on his right arm somehow, something like a figure four. Any ideas?


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## drop bear

Were you elbowing him in the face?

Keylock. Probably.


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## drop bear

Was it his near side arm or his far side?

So was your body on the side that you had his arm?


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## Tony Dismukes

Can you clarify the position? Were you in top of side control on his left side, reaching across to control his right wrist with your left hand? What position was his right arm in (extended away from you, extended towards his feet, arm bent up or down, etc)?

There are certainly locks you can apply from that position, but they can be tough to achieve when your partner has more grappling experience than you do. Working against the knife just makes it harder, because you can't afford to let go of the knife arm at any point.


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## K-man

drop bear said:


> Were you elbowing him in the face?
> 
> Keylock. Probably.


Couldn't get to his face without letting go the knife hand. A variation of a keylock may have been possible but I would have had to change hands which I was reluctant to do. My 'side control' was a loose description. I had him pinned but I wasn't across his chest, more his hips. I could barely reach his face. When I went for the eyes he could arch away. I certainly could have grabbed his groin from where I was. He was using his legs to keep me at disadvantage.


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## drop bear

I am just going to guess at somewhere here.





And If I am wrong at least we can rule that one out


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## K-man

drop bear said:


> Was it his near side arm or his far side?
> 
> So was your body on the side that you had his arm?


Yes, body on the side of the arm with the knife.


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## Dirty Dog

A fine example of why rolling on the ground is not always the best answer. 
You said it yourself. You were (from the way it reads to me) practicing self defense scenarios, but then you imposed an unrealistic restriction on yourself by not allowing striking when it would have been most effective to do so.


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## Drose427

K-man said:


> Couldn't get to his face without letting go the knife hand. A variation of a keylock may have been possible but I would have had to change hands which I was reluctant to do. My 'side control' was a loose description. I had him pinned but I wasn't across his chest, more his hips. I could barely reach his face. When I went for the eyes he could arch away. I certainly could have grabbed his groin from where I was. He was using his legs to keep me at disadvantage.



Assuming you were perpendicular to him and it sounds like you already had control, you couldve wiggled your legs up to his other arm and tried for a crucifix.

But I could be picturing the position wrong


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## K-man

Tony Dismukes said:


> Can you clarify the position? Were you in top of side control on his left side, reaching across to control his right wrist with your left hand? What position was his right arm in (extended away from you, extended towards his feet, arm bent up or down, etc)?
> 
> There are certainly locks you can apply from that position, but they can be tough to achieve when your partner has more grappling experience than you do. Working against the knife just makes it harder, because you can't afford to let go of the knife arm at any point.


That was an understatement. 
I was on his right side and I had his right arm pretty much straight out to his side. My right arm was across his chest stopping him getting to me with his left arm. My chest was across his right hip but he had wriggle room.


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## K-man

Dirty Dog said:


> A fine example of why rolling on the ground is not always the best answer.
> You said it yourself. You were (from the way it reads to me) practicing self defense scenarios, but then you imposed an unrealistic restriction on yourself by not allowing striking when it would have been most effective to do so.


Agree, but this could be a real ground scenario so I'm asking guys more experienced than me what they would do. This wasn't a self defence scenario. This was a guy with a real knife, blunt of course, attacking me with all his strength, not a predetermined attack, just what I could get hold of. Sure a strike may have been effective, then again, it might not.


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## K-man

Drose427 said:


> Assuming you were perpendicular to him and it sounds like you already had control, you couldve wiggled your legs up to his other arm and tried for a crucifix.
> 
> But I could be picturing the position wrong


Mmm! More parallel to him than perpendicular. I had splayed legs for stability.


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## Drose427

Something like that^?


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## ShotoNoob

I'm following along.  Sounds like almost a no-win situation....


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## Tony Dismukes

K-man said:


> That was an understatement.
> I was on his right side and I had his right arm pretty much straight out to his side. My right arm was across his chest stopping him getting to me with his left arm. My chest was across his right hip but he had wriggle room.


Did he have one of your legs trapped with his (I.e. half-guard)?


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## Steve

K-man said:


> Last night at training we were playing with knives as we do every session. My partner was a karate guy (BB) with experience in grappling and aikido. He had the knife. We were both sweating so his wrist was quite wet and slippery, same as it would be if there was blood. I managed to control the knife hand but couldn't get a lock. (I probably could have got in a kick or punch but that wasn't what we were training.) Eventually we ended up on the ground where I had side control with my left hand controlling his outstretched right arm, holding his wrist. That was his knife hand. He has far greater grappling skill than me and was able to keep me in a position where I couldn't get much advantage. I finally got the knife by muscling it from his hand (who says blunt knives don't cut? ) but I feel that I should have been able to get a lock on his right arm somehow, something like a figure four. Any ideas?


 I can't quite visualize what you're saying, but it sounds like you might have been able to get a straight armlock like this:

http://www.phase3.biz/core/uploads/JJP/photos/crossside-nogi-straightarm.jpg


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## drop bear

Steve said:


> I can't quite visualize what you're saying, but it sounds like you might have been able to get a straight armlock like this:
> 
> http://www.phase3.biz/core/uploads/JJP/photos/crossside-nogi-straightarm.jpg



Near side arm I think.


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## K-man

Tony Dismukes said:


> Did he have one of your legs trapped with his (I.e. half-guard)?


No but at one stage I was almost in his guard.


Drose427 said:


> View attachment 19231
> 
> Something like that^?


No, nothing like this.



ShotoNoob said:


> I'm following alone.  Sounds like almost a no-win situation....


No, I feel there should have been a means of locking up his arm.


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## K-man

Steve said:


> I can't quite visualize what you're saying, but it sounds like you might have been able to get a straight armlock like this:
> 
> http://www.phase3.biz/core/uploads/JJP/photos/crossside-nogi-straightarm.jpg


No, I wasn't across his body. I had his arm outstretched on the same side I was on.


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## K-man

Guys, I really appreciate your responses. I have to leave now but will come back shortly. What I will do at training tonight is reproduce the position and post a photo. Thank you all for your responses.


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## drop bear

You couldn't work up to his head?

Pop up to a knee on belly?


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## Tony Dismukes

If I'm correctly understanding the position, it would be far from ideal for managing any sort of armlock. I might have some general advice on improving the position, but I'll wait until you post your photo in case I'm on the wrong track.


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## ShotoNoob

Tony Dismukes said:


> If I'm correctly understanding the position, it would be far from ideal for managing any sort of armlock. I might have some general advice on improving the position, but I'll wait until you post your photo in case I'm on the wrong track.


Yeah, it seems the knife arm may be pinned or trapped; yet and additional move jeopardizes that....


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## Brian R. VanCise

I will wait till I see the photo before giving an idea of what I would do. 

I will say this though it is not much fun to be on the ground and grappling with a knife but if you have to do it I would prefer to be in any position that has me on top.


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## Buka

What a great use of this forum.


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## K-man

OK. Remember, this is just a recreation of where I think we were. My partner was using his legs to stop me getting further up and I was having difficulty reaching his face as he could arch out of range, plus he had his left arm available to push me away.




 
Don't you just hate photos from above?


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## Hanzou

Perhaps I'm missing the point of this exercise, but he really shouldn't be able to stop your scramble into a superior position. Is there a reason why your hand is around his throat, and not being used to better control his body? Also why aren't you utilizing your superior mobility to bypass his knees? Why are you splayed out next to him?


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## K-man

Hanzou said:


> Perhaps I'm missing the point of this exercise, but he really shouldn't be able to stop your scramble into a superior position. Is there a reason why your hand is around his throat, and not being used to better control his body? Also why aren't you utilizing your superior mobility to bypass his knees? Why are you splayed out next to him?


Well, that's the reason for my question. I couldn't get to the position I was trying for. He was using his legs to keep me away. As I said, it is a recreation. I was trying to reach his eyes or neck to distract him so I could get a better position. It didn't work. Now, under different circumstances I may have had better mobility but holding the that knife hand changes the dynamic. The splayed legs was to stabilise my position. The guy in this picture was not the guy I was grappling with. He was at least as strong as me physically and considerably younger. I'm not really asking about how I could have bettered my position unless you can see a glaringly obvious way. I am asking, is there an armlock that I could apply to get the knife.


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## Hanzou

K-man said:


> Well, that's the reason for my question. I couldn't get to the position I was trying for. He was using his legs to keep me away. As I said, it is a recreation. I was trying to reach his eyes or neck to distract him so I could get a better position. It didn't work. Now, under different circumstances I may have had better mobility but holding the that knife hand changes the dynamic. The splayed legs was to stabilise my position. The guy in this picture was not the guy I was grappling with. He was at least as strong as me physically and considerably younger. I'm not really asking about how I could have bettered my position unless you can see a glaringly obvious way. I am asking, is there an armlock that I could apply to get the knife.



Well yeah,  you can better your position by using your right hand and arm to better control his body and pull yourself up instead of going for a throat hold, or trying to distract him by going for his eyes or nose. You don't have the position to pull that off, because you're too far away. Additionally, stretching your body like that weakens your base considerably, and is the main reason he can move away from you.

Have you tried gripping his right shoulder with your right hand while placing your forearm and elbow on his chest? You should be able to pull yourself further up, and better control his upper body.


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## Mephisto

If his arm was out like that you might have been able to move up quickly and put your shin on his arm in an impromptu bicep slicer variation, but I wasn't there, he may have easily taken your back if you went for that depending on what your right hand was doing. 

With unpadded or low intensity knife play I'll use shoulder checks to simulate a head shot. The idea is If I can hit the shoulder I can most likely hit the head too. I can shoulder check at full speed without worrying about a broken nose or accidental eye gouge. It also removes the uncertainty pulling a puch can encounter. When pulling a punch sometimes it's hard to tell if the hit really would have landed or if the opponent evaded just enough, a miss by a hair is still a miss. The shoulder check gives some impact so the opponent has to react and you can add a little hesitancy to the spar/drill. Pulled shots can be shrugged off, especially by new guys, if shoulder checks get shrugged off you can up the power to wake the attacker up to the fact that he's getting hit.

I almost always use strikes when defending the blade, even if it's just the shoulder check for reasons already cited by others and I'm sure the op is aware of. Of course one thing I've noticed is guys who normally attack with the blade only focus on attacking with the blade but as soon as you fire a punch they'll bring the blade and punches too. But if you strike first and catch him off guard it's may be enough to get the upper hand before he starts punching back.


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## K-man

Hanzou said:


> Well yeah,  you can better your position by using your right hand and arm to better control his body and pull yourself up instead of going for a throat hold, or trying to distract him by going for his eyes or nose. You don't have the position to pull that off, because you're too far away. Additionally, stretching your body like that weakens your base considerably, and is the main reason he can move away from you.
> 
> Have you tried gripping his right shoulder with your right hand while placing your forearm and elbow on his chest? You should be able to pull yourself further up, and better control his upper body.


I'm not sure if I tried that or not. Certainly he was attempting to roll and he was using his legs. Perhaps if you looked at it from the side of my partner, what would you do to prevent me obtaining a dominant position? That may be closer to what he was actually doing to stop me gaining an advantage. In the end I just went for the knife but I feel I may have missed an opportunity to lock his arm.


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## Chris Parker

K-man said:


> OK. Remember, this is just a recreation of where I think we were. My partner was using his legs to stop me getting further up and I was having difficulty reaching his face as he could arch out of range, plus he had his left arm available to push me away.
> 
> View attachment 19232
> Don't you just hate photos from above?



Hey mate,

Yeah… you're gonna need to change position before you can do much from there… and pretty quickly too, honestly.


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## drop bear

K-man said:


> I'm not sure if I tried that or not. Certainly he was attempting to roll and he was using his legs. Perhaps if you looked at it from the side of my partner, what would you do to prevent me obtaining a dominant position? That may be closer to what he was actually doing to stop me gaining an advantage. In the end I just went for the knife but I feel I may have missed an opportunity to lock his arm.



Knife guy pushes your head (or gouges your eyes,same thing) turns inwards and gets on to his knees and then stands up. If you are still hanging off the arm. Gnp untill you don't.


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## drop bear

In your case k man you slip your legs out so you are making a T shape with both bodies. Either a basic side control or a scarf hold position.


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## Hanzou

K-man said:


> I'm not sure if I tried that or not. Certainly he was attempting to roll and he was using his legs. Perhaps if you looked at it from the side of my partner, what would you do to prevent me obtaining a dominant position? That may be closer to what he was actually doing to stop me gaining an advantage. In the end I just went for the knife but I feel I may have missed an opportunity to lock his arm.



I would do exactly what he's doing. It's actually a really good defense, because your concern about the knife essentially takes your left arm out of play because you have to maintain control of his right arm, he's also keeping his knees up, making it more difficult to pass your legs over his to achieve a dominant top position, and it gives him mobility. The best thing you can do is control his upper body, pass into a top position, and then attempt to isolate/lock his arm.

You could isolate his arm without passing to top position, but then you run the risk of him rolling back towards you and taking your back. Taking top position prevents that from happening, but you need to be further up to do it, hence why I suggested pulling yourself up while controlling his upper body. Once your knees reach his hips, you should be able to move into top position, and there's a variety of passes to do exactly that.

Once you achieve top, you can attempt this lock;


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## K-man

Hanzou said:


> I would do exactly what he's doing. It's actually a really good defense, because your concern about the knife essentially takes your left arm out of play because you have to maintain control of his right arm, he's also keeping his knees up, making it more difficult to pass your legs over his to achieve a dominant top position, and it gives him mobility. The best thing you can do is control his upper body, pass into a top position, and then attempt to isolate/lock his arm.
> 
> You could isolate his arm without passing to top position, but then you run the risk of him rolling back towards you and taking your back. Taking top position prevents that from happening, but you need to be further up to do it, hence why I suggested pulling yourself up while controlling his upper body. Once your knees reach his hips, you should be able to move into top position, and there's a variety of passes to do exactly that.
> 
> Once you achieve top, you can attempt this lock;


The only problem here is that I am on the wrong side. Now by changing my grip to the right hand I can slide my left hand under and put pressure on the elbow like a figure four but in doing so I give him the opportunity to reach over and grab me with his left hand unless I was really fast.


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## drop bear

All of this is about controlling him with your body and not your arms.


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## K-man

drop bear said:


> Knife guy pushes your head (or gouges your eyes,same thing) turns inwards and gets on to his knees and then stands up. If you are still hanging off the arm. Gnp untill you don't.


He couldn't reach my eyes either so that wasn't an issue and while I had weight on his lower chest he couldn't turn.


drop bear said:


> In your case k man you slip your legs out so you are making a T shape with both bodies. Either a basic side control or a scarf hold position.


Again I would have to relinquish my position which was already tenuous. In reality I think my best option was to jump up and run but I was just wondering if I was missing an opportunity for a lock.


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## Chris Parker

Don't look for the lock… you're not there yet. You really need to change the position first… which is easier to show than to describe…


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## K-man

drop bear said:


> All of this is about controlling him with your body and not your arms.


True, and in part I was able to do that. The problem was I couldn't move further up.


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## Hanzou

K-man said:


> The only problem here is that I am on the wrong side. Now by changing my grip to the right hand I can slide my left hand under and put pressure on the elbow like a figure four but in doing so I give him the opportunity to reach over and grab me with his left hand unless I was really fast.



Reach over and grab you and do what exactly? He can grab you all he wants, but he isn't stopping that arm break. Your body weight should keep his shoulder pinned to the floor.

As for wrong side of grips, that shouldn't be a problem, you can swap the grip once you're in position because its your body weight plus two arms versus his single arm pinned to the floor. I'm also pretty sure you can reverse grip on that key lock and still get the break. However don't quote me on that. I would need to do it on someone to be sure.


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## drop bear

K-man said:


> The only problem here is that I am on the wrong side. Now by changing my grip to the right hand I can slide my left hand under and put pressure on the elbow like a figure four but in doing so I give him the opportunity to reach over and grab me with his left hand unless I was really fast.


Yes.
If you went for the figure four straight arm bar you would be giving him your back.


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## K-man

Chris Parker said:


> Don't look for the lock… you're not there yet. You really need to change the position first… which is easier to show than to describe…


Cool, so isn't it time you popped over for a visit? You can show me first hand.  Plus it's time we had another coffee!


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## Chris Parker

Ha, sure! I'm working late next Thursday, but could probably make it the one after… or are you on Wednesday nights these days?


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## Chris Parker

Alternately, I'm teaching tomorrow night, if you wanted to pop by…


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## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> All of this is about controlling him with your body and not your arms.



Exactly. Position before submission. Side control, mount, scarf hold, etc. You need the dominant position first before you attempt an armbar or shoulder lock.


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## Chris Parker

Hmm… I agree that the position needs to be changed… but I don't know that I'd suggest any of the ones you're mentioning, with the possible exception of scarf… the others…  have issues in this context.


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## K-man

Chris Parker said:


> Ha, sure! I'm working late next Thursday, but could probably make it the one after… or are you on Wednesday nights these days?


 Thursday after is fine, that's a Krav night. Wednesday is karate and it was actually in the karate class that this arose.


Chris Parker said:


> Alternately, I'm teaching tomorrow night, if you wanted to pop by…


And we have a houseful of folk coming for dinner. I'm not sure my marriage would survive if I took another night out to train.


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## Chris Parker

Awesome, Wednesday I'm free.


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## drop bear

K-man said:


> He couldn't reach my eyes either so that wasn't an issue and while I had weight on his lower chest he couldn't turn.
> Again I would have to relinquish my position which was already tenuous. In reality I think my best option was to jump up and run but I was just wondering if I was missing an opportunity for a lock.



He should have been able to hip escape straight out of that. I will give it a play.

I assume he was trying to pull guard.

If you pop on to your knees but continue to drive your shoulder.  You can move and maintain pressure.

In fact jump on to your toes and apex him. (push you shoulder or head into his body while driving him forwards) Then just walk your feet around


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## K-man

Hanzou said:


> Exactly. Position before submission. Side control, mount, scarf hold, etc. You need the dominant position first before you attempt an armbar or shoulder lock.


I might have a chance to try the scarf hold in the morning at aikido. Otherwise I'll have to wait until next Tuesday to try it out. But I can see how it could work but I'd have to control the knife arm with my leg. How secure would that be?


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## Chris Parker

That's not how you'd control the knife…


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## K-man

drop bear said:


> He should have been able to hip escape straight out of that. I will give it a play.
> 
> I assume he was trying to pull guard.
> 
> If you pop on to your knees but continue to drive your shoulder.  You can move and maintain pressure.
> 
> In fact jump on to your toes and apex him. (push you shoulder or head into his body while driving him forwards) Then just walk your feet around


Yeah! I didn't think of doing that at the time. And yes, at different times he was trying to get me in his guard but I kept out of it.


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## K-man

Chris Parker said:


> That's not how you'd control the knife…


That was my thought too. So how do you control the knife and get a scarf hold?


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## drop bear

K-man said:


> Yeah! I didn't think of doing that at the time. And yes, at different times he was trying to get me in his guard but I kept out of it.








00:40. As a guard pass that apex and shimmy.


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## K-man

drop bear said:


> 00:40. As a guard pass that apex and shimmy.


Even so, it was hard enough for this guy to achieve it and that's without having to worry about the knife.

Guys, thanks for the input. It's way past my bedtime and I have a 7am class in the morning. I'll look forward to discussing it further tomorrow.


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## Chris Parker

K-man said:


> That was my thought too. So how do you control the knife and get a scarf hold?



Again, not easy to explain, but can be shown… in essence, it's to do with particular pressures, and centring properly with your hara…


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## Hanzou

K-man said:


> I might have a chance to try the scarf hold in the morning at aikido. Otherwise I'll have to wait until next Tuesday to try it out. But I can see how it could work but I'd have to control the knife arm with my leg. How secure would that be?



I wouldn't suggest the scarf hold unless you're a very experienced grappler. I listed it because it's an option, and a damn good one if you know what you're doing. You can also perform a variety of painful locks from that position.

That said, Side control with the arm bar gives you the most control, and is frankly easier to achieve from your starting position.


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## Hanzou

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm… I agree that the position needs to be changed… but I don't know that I'd suggest any of the ones you're mentioning, with the possible exception of scarf… the others…  have issues in this context.



Well what's the context? The positions I mentioned are far superior to his position in the photo.


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## Chris Parker

Sure… but not so good against a blade.


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## Instructor

I am not a bjj guy so grain of salt.  I would keep hold of the knife hand wrist. Scramble forward and out then fire several hard knee strikes to uke's floating ribs.  While he is briefly stunned I would remove my hand from his throat fold the knife arm into a reverse goose neck and stab him with his own knife.


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## Chris Parker

That last bit… "stab him with his own knife"… after you've disarmed him… that's jail here, so you know…


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## Instructor

It's not a disarm if the knife is still in his hand.


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## Chris Parker

The "goose-neck" is designed to cause him to release the knife… if you have gained control, you will be seen as having the advantage, and therefore, yeah, jail. Remember, K-man and I are neighbours…


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## Instructor

I see your point Chris.  If the knife was released then obviously I wouldn't stab him afterword.


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## Tony Dismukes

Yeah, there is no good lock available from that position. Remember, position before submission. You really need to improve your position before you try for any finishes. (Especially since in that position, if I'm the guy on the bottom you are going to get cut pretty soon.)

I've been out from training all week with the flu. Hopefully over the weekend I'll be well enough to play with the position a bit and maybe shoot some video showing you some options.

In the meantime, here are some preliminary thoughts:

You can't just inch your way into a better position, because you don't have solid enough control. On the other hand, you can't just scramble for a better position and give up control of the knife hand. You need a mobile position which will allow you to maintain control of the knife and your opponent's body while you transition into a better finishing position.

A couple of possibilities are

1) Pop up to knee on belly. From here you can strike, disengage, move to scarf hold, use your outside shin to help pin his arm (and possibly set up some crude disarms), or move to far side side-control.

2) Pin your opponent by planting your head on his belly, piking your butt up high, walking your body perpendicular to your opponent, and getting 2-on-1 control of the knife hand. This leads to some positions that are tricky to describe in print, so I wouldn't worry about it too much unless you have the grappling experience to be familiar with this type of movement.

BTW - I'm presuming from the question that you're wanting a ground grappling approach to the problem. Obviously in a real life situation with other potential assailants around, the best answer might sometimes be to pop to your feet, kick him in the groin, then sprint to find safety or a weapon of your own.


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## Hanzou

Chris Parker said:


> Sure… but not so good against a blade.



You have control over the hand and arm throughout the process. How would he be able to use the blade against you?


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## drop bear

Instructor said:


> I see your point Chris.  If the knife was released then obviously I wouldn't stab him afterword.



Goose neck also potentially drops his knife into his other hand.


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## Instructor

Okay so just manipulate the arm leaving the wrist in the strong position holding the knife,  then drive his hand, holding knife into himself.


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## Brian R. VanCise

*Good thing from here is that you have a hand on his weapon bearing arm*.  Bad thing is that you are still in a scramble and have to improve your position to do anything.  I would be working my way up the body on the same side for a chance at better position and stronger control of his weapon bearing arm.  Preferably I would try to improve my right hand position so that it would allow me more control (as Hanzou mentioned) and I would then move my right knee up on the side of his body.  Then I would place my left knee, shin on his knife bearing arm.  Which would mean I have and arm and a leg on his knife bearing arm.   A few headbutts later and I would take the knife.  Of course I have to keep him from putting me in the half guard as I move up his body.  If he does that my job just became really hard!

I can show you exactly what I mean this summer when we meet and train!


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## Tony Dismukes

Instructor said:


> Okay so just manipulate the arm leaving the wrist in the strong position holding the knife, then drive his hand, holding knife into himself.



Ah, the old "Stop stabbing yourself. Stop stabbing yourself." routine. Good luck convincing a judge and jury after the fact that a) he was the one holding the knife at the time of the stabbing and b) you weren't in control. "Well, your honor, he was looking really despondent. I tried to explain to him how much he had to live for, but he kept stabbing himself in the ribs."



Brian R. VanCise said:


> I can show you exactly what I mean this summer when we meet and train!



You making a trip out to Australia? I'm jealous.


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## Steve

Seems like priority number one would be to swim for the underhook on the far side, and move to mount.  That could all be done while maintaining control of that knife hand.  The position is very precarious, and it's screaming for the guy on the bottom to clear your hand off of his neck (easier to do than you might think) and take your back.    Just my immediate thoughts.  I'm very interested in seeing what you come up with, Tony.


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## ShotoNoob

K-man said:


> He couldn't reach my eyes either so that wasn't an issue and while I had weight on his lower chest he couldn't turn.
> Again I would have to relinquish my position which was already tenuous. In reality I think my best option was to jump up and run but I was just wondering if I was missing an opportunity for a lock.


|
Let me say my ground game pales compares to BJJ, and such.  It's a great illustration, to me, OF NO EASY [strike 'easy' replace with] SAFE ANSWER.
|
The instant you for the lock, you're committed to the knife limb.  By default the other arm & the rest of the opponent's body are basically uncontrolled.
|
I'm not sure how much the fact that I'm a striker primarily is recognized here--here's my answer.  Use my hand at the neck to injure the head with blow or blows.  The goal is the same applied goal for traditional karate.  Disable your opponent quickly & efficiently.  So if I KO the knife wielder, then his knife hand becomes moot.
|
If I am able to stun or inflict pain that takes away his thought process, he's distracted, preoccupied by coping with pain or trauma from my strike or strike(s), then you grapplers can take over with technical propositions from there.


----------



## Steve

Just a second to add one more thing related to my post above, priority one really needs to be to secure solid control  The position K-man is in, he is at risk of finding himself with a bad guy controlling his back.  Creating any space to strike bad guy will likely make losing position even easier. 

even a move to knee on belly should really be done providing as little space as possible between you and the bad guy.  I'd personally get the underhook on the far side and keep his arm as high as possible to prevent him from taking my back, and then keeping chest to chest, slide my right knee across the belly all the way to mount.  From there, you have options (straight armlock, kimura, americana, etc).


----------



## ShotoNoob

Chris Parker said:


> Hey mate,
> 
> Yeah… you're gonna need to change position before you can do much from there… and pretty quickly too, honestly.


|
As QFT, Times running out.... Final Answer?


----------



## ShotoNoob

Steve said:


> Just a second to add one more thing related to my post above, priority one really needs to be to secure solid control  The position K-man is in, he is at risk of finding himself with a bad guy controlling his back.  Creating any space to strike bad guy will likely make losing position even easier.


|
Okay, that's your assessment.



Steve said:


> even a move to knee on belly should really be done providing as little space as possible between you and the bad guy.  I'd personally get the underhook on the far side and keep his arm as high as possible to prevent him from taking my back, and then keeping chest to chest, slide my right knee across the belly all the way to mount.  From there, you have options (straight armlock, kimura, americana, etc).


|
My assessment is striking to accomplish what I said.  Whatever I have to do to make the disabling strike, strikes >> move, shift, jump up and land a knee to the stomach first--I'm going to do.  I can hit before I shift or move, I can hit several time before I more or shift,  I can hit once & shift or move to hit again from a better angle or hit another target.  KIME here is key.  Making your strike(s) count is what traditional karate trains for.  That's my assessment.
|
As Chris Parker said, you have no time it's a tenuous position.


----------



## Hanzou

Striking runs the risk of opening yourself up to a counter, unbalancing yourself, and the possibility of losing control of the knife-wielding hand. Steve's assessment is right on the money because the primary goal should be to establish a more dominant position that will give you more control, and a lot more options to end the situation. Once you're in the mount, or side control, then you can attempt to strike. Frankly, I'd go for the arm bar immediately.


----------



## simo.20.maroc14

Wereyou elbowing
Him in the face aface


----------



## Steve

yeah, this is one of those situations where what seems right is actually a bad idea.  It sounds like a good idea to drop some elbows or create space to drive a knee into the stomach.  But as Tony said, position before submission... or in this case, position before striking.  The biggest issue, regardless of how it's resolved, is that k-man's position is very, very precarious.  How this is addressed can be a matter for discussion, but that it must be addressed is really not the issue. 

K-man, this is very interesting, and I have to echo what Buka said.  What a great exercise and way to get some constructive discussion going.  Thank you!


----------



## Steve

Here are a couple of images that kind of show the danger of giving up the underhook on the far side and not establishing sound positional control.  One is from half guard and the other from side control, similar to where you are at, K-man.  What comes next in each of these cases is that the person on the bottom will create space by hipping back away from you (if you're creating space for them, it's even easier) and using that space to reverse the position and take control of your back. 

The knife makes this even more dangerous for you, because as you lose control of the bottom guy's hips, you're also going to have less leverage to control his near side arm.  I'd guess that before he even takes your back, he'll have enough leverage to clear his hand and stab you somewhere bad.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Hanzou said:


> Striking runs the risk of opening yourself up to a counter, unbalancing yourself, and the possibility of losing control of the knife-wielding hand.


Chris Parker says move.  _*Any move carries risk.*_  A T with 4 pages of back & forth says so.  I'm not the only post here....
|


Hanzou said:


> Steve's assessment is right on the money because the primary goal _*should*_ be to establish a more dominant position that will give you more control, and a lot more options to end the situation. _*Once*_ you're in the mount, or side control, then you can attempt to strike. Frankly, I'd go for the arm bar immediately.


|
Hey go for it.  You have a bunch of grappler / instructors putting out all kinda conflicting rights & wrongs....
|
Key RISK words are SHOULD & ONCE.
|
btw: Staying-still risks losing control of the knife-wielding hand.  You just answered my post by re-stating the potential problems....


----------



## ShotoNoob

On top of that, you have other MT T's with posts going on & on how dangerous a knife fight is & the choices are limited & time-sensitive compared to an unarmed assailant....
|
One things for sure, I'm continuing to read the discussion....  Helps my grappling knowledge alone....


----------



## Buka

K-man said:


> OK. Remember, this is just a recreation of where I think we were. My partner was using his legs to stop me getting further up and I was having difficulty reaching his face as he could arch out of range, plus he had his left arm available to push me away.
> 
> View attachment 19232
> Don't you just hate photos from above?



For fun - I first looked at the photo from the knifer's point of view. He in big trouble.

Since you don't usually start a knife encounter on the ground, or with your wrist in the grip of another, ol' knifer's day has been going steadily downhill from the git go. Not to mention finding his throat clutched by the hand of a "this ain't my first rodeo" older guy. Knifer's in an inferior position, on his back, his legs close together are a weaker base than his opponent's and his grip on his _only advantage_, the knife, don't look none too good anymore.

K-man, checkmate in three. 

So......what would you do if you were the man with the knife?


----------



## Hanzou

ShotoNoob said:


> Chris Parker says move.  _*Any move carries risk.*_  A T with 4 pages of back & forth says so.  I'm not the only post here....



Sure, but some moves are riskier than others. For example, Kman going for the throat or facial strikes as shown in the photo is far riskier than the grappling solutions provided in this thread.





> Hey go for it





> .  You have a bunch of grappler / instructors putting out all kinda conflicting rights & wrongs....
> |
> Key RISK words are SHOULD & ONCE.
> |
> btw: Staying-still risks losing control of the knife-wielding hand.  You just answered my post by re-stating the potential problems....



Please show one post where anyone suggested standing still. NO ONE suggested that.


----------



## Steve

ShotoNoob said:


> Chris Parker says move.  _*Any move carries risk.*_  A T with 4 pages of back & forth says so.  I'm not the only post here....
> |
> 
> |
> Hey go for it.  You have a bunch of grappler / instructors putting out all kinda conflicting rights & wrongs....
> |
> Key RISK words are SHOULD & ONCE.
> |
> btw: Staying-still risks losing control of the knife-wielding hand.  You just answered my post by re-stating the potential problems....


For what it's worth, I think the grapplers are all saying pretty much the same thing.  And, just to be clear, any move carries risk, but some moves are unnecessarily risky while others will mitigate risk.  Creating space, whether to strike or anything else, is unnecessarily risky.  Even a move to knee on belly, which could lead to either moving to mount or disengaging, should be done with a mind toward minimizing the amount of space you're providing to the bad guy on the bottom. 



Buka said:


> For fun - I first looked at the photo from the knifer's point of view. He in big trouble.
> 
> Since you don't usually start a knife encounter on the ground, or with your wrist in the grip of another, ol' knifer's day has been going steadily downhill from the git go. Not to mention finding his throat clutched by the hand of a "this ain't my first rodeo" older guy. Knifer's in an inferior position, on his back, his legs close together are a weaker base than his opponent's and his grip on his _only advantage_, the knife, don't look none too good anymore.
> 
> K-man, checkmate in three.
> 
> So......what would you do if you were the man with the knife?


I'd focus on keeping a good grip on that knife, hipping out with that underhook and stabbing the top guy at the first available opportunity, either during or after I either reverse the position or take his back.  I'm not overly concerned about his hand on my throat, because he'll move that as soon as he realizes the danger he's in.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

I would agree with Steve that all of the people with extensive grappling experience are advocating improving position while maintaining control of the weapon bearing arm.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Steve said:


> For what it's worth, I think the grapplers are all saying pretty much the same thing....  And, just to be clear, any move carries risk, but some moves are unnecessarily risky while others will mitigate risk.  Creating space, whether to strike or anything else, is unnecessarily risky.  Even a move to knee on belly, which could lead to either moving to mount or disengaging, should be done with a mind toward minimizing the amount of space you're providing to the bad guy on the bottom.


|
Glad to see a consensus, on principles too...



Steve said:


> I'd focus on keeping a good grip on that knife, hipping out with that underhook and stabbing the top guy at the first available opportunity, either during or after I either reverse the position or take his back.  I'm not overly concerned about his hand on my throat, because he'll move that as soon as he realizes the danger he's in.


|
Embodied (generally) in my thinking....


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> Seems like priority number one would be to swim for the underhook on the far side, and move to mount.  That could all be done while maintaining control of that knife hand.  The position is very precarious, and it's screaming for the guy on the bottom to clear your hand off of his neck (easier to do than you might think) and take your back.    Just my immediate thoughts.  I'm very interested in seeing what you come up with, Tony.



Yeah that was one of the questions asked what does knife guy do?

Apparently he was trying to re guard. Where I would have hip escaped,turtle stand up.


----------



## Hanzou

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would agree with Steve that all of the people with extensive grappling experience are advocating improving position while maintaining control of the weapon bearing arm.



Yeah, no argument there. 

I'm curious as to why so many people are suggesting a scarf hold though. In order to apply a scarf hold, don't you need to bring the knife wielding hand dangerously close to your body?


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would agree with Steve that all of the people with extensive grappling experience are advocating improving position while maintaining control of the weapon bearing arm.


Well, that might be my approach as an experienced grappler. Someone with no grappling experience might be safer jumping to his feet, kicking the knife guy in the crotch before he gets up, and making a run for it. You use the tools you have available.


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> For what it's worth, I think the grapplers are all saying pretty much the same thing.  And, just to be clear, any move carries risk, but some moves are unnecessarily risky while others will mitigate risk.  Creating space, whether to strike or anything else, is unnecessarily risky.  Even a move to knee on belly, which could lead to either moving to mount or disengaging, should be done with a mind toward minimizing the amount of space you're providing to the bad guy on the bottom.
> 
> I'd focus on keeping a good grip on that knife, hipping out with that underhook and stabbing the top guy at the first available opportunity, either during or after I either reverse the position or take his back.  I'm not overly concerned about his hand on my throat, because he'll move that as soon as he realizes the danger he's in.



Hip out should break the throat grip.





Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would agree with Steve that all of the people with extensive grappling experience are advocating improving position while maintaining control of the weapon bearing arm.



Ok. What if we didn't?  He is trying to re guard then let him. Downward elbows and a keylock.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, no argument there.
> 
> I'm curious as to why so many people are suggesting a scarf hold though. In order to apply a scarf hold, don't you need to bring the knife wielding hand dangerously close to your body?



You have to if you want to create torque.which you need for an arm lock.

A scarf can give you the opportunity for a legs only key lock. Or at least a legs mostly.


----------



## drop bear

Tony Dismukes said:


> Well, that might be my approach as an experienced grappler. Someone with no grappling experience might be safer jumping to his feet, kicking the knife guy in the crotch before he gets up, and making a run for it. You use the tools you have available.



I would still improve position before I did that.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> You have to if you want to create torque.which you need for an arm lock.
> 
> A scarf can give you the opportunity for a legs only key lock. Or at least a legs mostly.



Is there some modified Scarf Hold I'm not aware of? Isn't the hold like this;










Wouldn't that expose you to some serious knife wounds?


----------



## drop bear

drop bear said:


> I am just going to guess at somewhere here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And If I am wrong at least we can rule that one out



Scarf with the keylock. So a bit modified and of course you are not letting that hand near the neck.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> Scarf with the keylock. So a bit modified and of course you are not letting that hand near the neck.



Oh, I understand the key lock from scarf hold. I'm simply pointing out that the scarf hold itself opens you up to getting slashed. Not only at the entry of the hold, but within the hold itself, because  you're moving that knife hand dangerously close to your body the entire way through. Even when you're applying the arm bar.


----------



## K-man

Instructor said:


> I am not a bjj guy so grain of salt.  I would keep hold of the knife hand wrist. Scramble forward and out then fire several hard knee strikes to uke's floating ribs.  While he is briefly stunned I would remove my hand from his throat fold the knife arm into a reverse goose neck and stab him with his own knife.


Against a trained grappler that isn't as easy as it sounds. This is really the first time I haven't been able to get a good position and the disarm, hence the thread. My partner was using his legs to keep me from gaining position and at the same time threatening to catch me in his guard. I'm starting to think my best option may have been to get up, perhaps give him a good kick to a leg and get away.


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> Against a trained grappler that isn't as easy as it sounds. This is really the first time I haven't been able to get a good position and the disarm, hence the thread. My partner was using his legs to keep me from gaining position and at the same time threatening to catch me in his guard. I'm starting to think my best option may have been to get up, perhaps give him a good kick to a leg and get away.



Catching you in guard would have worked against him.


----------



## K-man

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, there is no good lock available from that position. Remember, position before submission. You really need to improve your position before you try for any finishes. (Especially since in that position, if I'm the guy on the bottom you are going to get cut pretty soon.)


That was my experience. I had no problem maintaining my situation, I just couldn't improve it which means in the end if he has mates I'm up to my neck in the brown stuff.



Tony Dismukes said:


> I've been out from training all week with the flu. Hopefully over the weekend I'll be well enough to play with the position a bit and maybe shoot some video showing you some options.


That would be really good. 



Tony Dismukes said:


> You can't just inch your way into a better position, because you don't have solid enough control. On the other hand, you can't just scramble for a better position and give up control of the knife hand. You need a mobile position which will allow you to maintain control of the knife and your opponent's body while you transition into a better finishing position.


Agreed, plus in real life I may not have the time either.



Tony Dismukes said:


> A couple of possibilities are
> 
> 1) Pop up to knee on belly. From here you can strike, disengage, move to scarf hold, use your outside shin to help pin his arm (and possibly set up some crude disarms), or move to far side side-control.
> 
> 2) Pin your opponent by planting your head on his belly, piking your butt up high, walking your body perpendicular to your opponent, and getting 2-on-1 control of the knife hand. This leads to some positions that are tricky to describe in print, so I wouldn't worry about it too much unless you have the grappling experience to be familiar with this type of movement.


I'll play around with it again next week.



Tony Dismukes said:


> BTW - I'm presuming from the question that you're wanting a ground grappling approach to the problem. Obviously in a real life situation with other potential assailants around, the best answer might sometimes be to pop to your feet, kick him in the groin, then sprint to find safety or a weapon of your own.


Exactly. It was just I thought there might have been something simple I was overlooking.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Oh, I understand the key lock from scarf hold. I'm simply pointing out that the scarf hold itself opens you up to getting slashed. Not only at the entry of the hold, but within the hold itself, because  you're moving that knife hand dangerously close to your body the entire way through. Even when you're applying the arm bar.



Yes. But you have to move that arm with your body behind it. No getting around that. You can pin it to the ground but you cant lock it up.


----------



## K-man

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Good thing from here is that you have a hand on his weapon bearing arm*.  Bad thing is that you are still in a scramble and have to improve your position to do anything.  I would be working my way up the body on the same side for a chance at better position and stronger control of his weapon bearing arm.  Preferably I would try to improve my right hand position so that it would allow me more control (as Hanzou mentioned) and I would then move my right knee up on the side of his body.  Then I would place my left knee, shin on his knife bearing arm.  Which would mean I have and arm and a leg on his knife bearing arm.   A few headbutts later and I would take the knife.  Of course I have to keep him from putting me in the half guard as I move up his body.  If he does that my job just became really hard!
> 
> I can show you exactly what I mean this summer when we meet and train!


I'll try playing around with these thoughts again next week. It becomes interesting training for all my guys when something a little out of the box shows up.

As for summer, I've got some really bad news for you .... July 11th -12th is mid-winter out here.


----------



## K-man

Steve said:


> Seems like priority number one would be to swim for the underhook on the far side, and move to mount.  That could all be done while maintaining control of that knife hand.  The position is very precarious, and it's screaming for the guy on the bottom to clear your hand off of his neck (easier to do than you might think) and take your back.    Just my immediate thoughts.  I'm very interested in seeing what you come up with, Tony.


Where I was he couldn't get my back and I always had the escape option, and as I said earlier, I could easily reach and grab his groin from where I was. I had limited ability to hit him or elbow though.


----------



## K-man

ShotoNoob said:


> The instant you for the lock, you're committed to the knife limb.  By default the other arm & the rest of the opponent's body are basically uncontrolled.


Yes but in reality the lock is a break. Compounding the problem here was the slippery wrist from perspiration.



ShotoNoob said:


> I'm not sure how much the fact that I'm a striker primarily is recognized here--here's my answer.  Use my hand at the neck to injure the head with blow or blows.  The goal is the same applied goal for traditional karate.  Disable your opponent quickly & efficiently.  So if I KO the knife wielder, then his knife hand becomes moot.


OK, there may have been the opportunity for striking before we hit the deck but once down striking wouldn't have caused much damage unless I could get a bit of freedom, something I didn't have and couldn't get.



ShotoNoob said:


> If I am able to stun or inflict pain that takes away his thought process, he's distracted, preoccupied by coping with pain or trauma from my strike or strike(s), then you grapplers can take over with technical propositions from there.


That would be my preferred option but we have to use what we are given and in this instance I wasn't holding any aces when we were on the ground.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> Yes. But you have to move that arm with your body behind it. No getting around that. You can pin it to the ground but you cant lock it up.



You can get around it by going for Mount or Side mount instead of a scarf hold. Preferably ending in something like this;


----------



## K-man

ShotoNoob said:


> My assessment is striking to accomplish what I said.  Whatever I have to do to make the disabling strike, strikes >> move, shift, jump up and land a knee to the stomach first--I'm going to do.  I can hit before I shift or move, I can hit several time before I more or shift,  I can hit once & shift or move to hit again from a better angle or hit another target.  KIME here is key.  Making your strike(s) count is what traditional karate trains for.  That's my assessment.
> 
> As Chris Parker said, you have no time it's a tenuous position.


Easier to say than to do. I couldn't get into a good striking position without releasing the knife hand. If I did release the knife hand and jump up I sure as hell wouldn't be trying to put my knee on his stomach. You would be stabbed multiple times before you could land even one punch and even then it's not so simple to land punches from that position.


----------



## K-man

simo.20.maroc14 said:


> Wereyou elbowing
> Him in the face aface


Welcome to MT. 

No. If you look at the photo I posted I couldn't even punch him in the face, let alone elbow him.


----------



## K-man

Steve said:


> Here are a couple of images that kind of show the danger of giving up the underhook on the far side and not establishing sound positional control.  One is from half guard and the other from side control, similar to where you are at, K-man.  What comes next in each of these cases is that the person on the bottom will create space by hipping back away from you (if you're creating space for them, it's even easier) and using that space to reverse the position and take control of your back.
> 
> The knife makes this even more dangerous for you, because as you lose control of the bottom guy's hips, you're also going to have less leverage to control his near side arm.  I'd guess that before he even takes your back, he'll have enough leverage to clear his hand and stab you somewhere bad.


He was trying to hip away but I had no trouble following him. Of course that is the problem with one of the earlier thoughts of adopting a perpendicular position which is fine in theory but I couldn't get my torso over his chest.


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> Catching you in guard would have worked against him.


Maybe, but it was also restricting my ability to escape.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> You can get around it by going for Mount or Side mount instead of a scarf hold. Preferably ending in something like this;



With the knife near your face?

And yes that is an option.


----------



## ShotoNoob

K-man said:


> Yes but in reality the lock is a break. Compounding the problem here was the slippery wrist from perspiration.
> 
> OK, there may have been the opportunity for striking before we hit the deck but once down striking wouldn't have caused much damage unless I could get a bit of freedom, something I didn't have and couldn't get.
> 
> That would be my preferred option but we have to use what we are given and in this instance I wasn't holding any aces when we were on the ground.


|
I keep going back & studying the photo.  You've posed a great training scenario.  I'll have more to say, continually thinking it through....  Thanks


----------



## Steve

K-man said:


> He was trying to hip away but I had no trouble following him. Of course that is the problem with one of the earlier thoughts of adopting a perpendicular position which is fine in theory but I couldn't get my torso over his chest.


knife guy should be hipping out and up onto his right hip, using the undertook you're giving him by messing with trying to choke him with your hand.  the goal of creating space isn't to expect it to maintain space.   It's to get up onto his hip and off of his back.   From there, it really doesn't matter if you can follow him.   Driving into him, in fact, without securing your undertook with your right arm/his left, makes taking your back or reversing the position easier.   Also, I gaurantee you that you will quickly feel out of control and forget that knife.

Tony makes a good,point in that if you are both untrained, you can likely pop back to your feet and kick the dude or flee.   Otherwise, I really don't think you realize how illusory your feelings of security are in that pic.


----------



## ShotoNoob

K-man said:


> Yes but in reality the lock is a break. Compounding the problem here was the slippery wrist from perspiration.


|
Same end goal as my strike plan....



K-man said:


> OK, there may have been the opportunity for striking before we hit the deck but once down striking wouldn't have caused much damage unless I could get a bit of freedom, something I didn't have and couldn't get.


|
throat hand is the weapon.... the principle is 1-steps, or basic kata bunkai.  I definitely believe damage could be done.  As defender, am I in a good position, No.  More accurately, not in a good position to start (anything as posters have commented).



K-man said:


> That would be my preferred option but we have to use what we are given and in this instance I wasn't holding any aces when we were on the ground.


|
This is why I choose a striking-based art.  Ground striking then becomes an adaptation.


----------



## ShotoNoob

K-man said:


> Easier to say than to do.


|
Absolutely easier said than done....  I really like the reality-testing of this scenario....  That's what all the debate is / was about....


K-man said:


> I couldn't get into a good striking position without releasing the knife hand.


|
I would never release the knife hand.  The throat hand is the weapon.  Moreover, body positioning out-of-kilter aside, the the throat hand is proximate to the vulnerable & controlling target >> head area....


K-man said:


> If I did release the knife hand and jump up I sure as hell wouldn't be trying to put my knee on his stomach. You would be stabbed multiple times before you could land even one punch and even then it's not so simple to land punches from that position.


|
I wouldn't be placing my knee anywhere as any end goal.  I wouldn't be releasing the knife hand for anything.  I would never be interested in grappling (myself) rolling on the ground mobility compromised against a guy with a knife.
|
I'm going to do harm (by strike or strikes) that disables the ability of the assailant to direct the use of that knife.  The knife can stay in his hand 'cause his head area is going to be so damaged he's going to undergo the reverse of "mental clarity."  His arm will end in the functioning category of limp & dead to response.


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> knife guy should be hipping out and up onto his right hip, using the undertook you're giving him by messing with trying to choke him with your hand.  the goal of creating space isn't to expect it to maintain space.   It's to get up onto his hip and off of his back.   From there, it really doesn't matter if you can follow him.   Driving into him, in fact, without securing your undertook with your right arm/his left, makes taking your back or reversing the position easier.   Also, I gaurantee you that you will quickly feel out of control and forget that knife.
> 
> Tony makes a good,point in that if you are both untrained, you can likely pop back to your feet and kick the dude or flee.   Otherwise, I really don't think you realize how illusory your feelings of security are in that pic.



My big fear is that ha follows you up.

Scoot around so your pop up puts you last point of contact puts your foot on his wrist?


----------



## drop bear

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Absolutely easier said than done....  I really like the reality-testing of this scenario....  That's what all the debate is / was about....
> 
> |
> I would never release the knife hand.  The throat hand is the weapon.  Moreover, body positioning out-of-kilter aside, the the throat hand is proximate to the vulnerable & controlling target >> head area....
> 
> |
> I wouldn't be placing my knee anywhere as any end goal.  I wouldn't be releasing the knife hand for anything.  I would never be interested in grappling (myself) rolling on the ground mobility compromised against a guy with a knife.
> |
> I'm going to do harm (by strike or strikes) that disables the ability of the assailant to direct the use of that knife.  The knife can stay in his hand 'cause his head area is going to be so damaged he's going to undergo the reverse of "mental clarity."  His arm will end in the functioning category of limp & dead to response.


[/QUOTE]

Ok here is the basic grappling dichotomy. If you are in a scramble you can either hit the guy or hold him down but not both.

Unless you are in mount. Which is why it is used.


----------



## ShotoNoob

drop bear said:


> Ok here is the basic grappling dichotomy. If you are in a scramble you can either hit the guy or hold him down but not both.
> 
> Unless you are in mount. Which is why it is used.


|
Right.  I keep looking @ the picture.  The starting position to strike from is very limiting....  My feeling is the initial strikes (say 2) are going to distract & hurt allowing me to move incrementally higher & power strike then.
|
The tactical goal is once the assailant is majorly stunned (even), the finish is downhill from there.  The arms & body lose their potency to make any meaningful response....
|
Your / my counterstrike assault must be continuous until finish.  Taikyoku kata explains this....


----------



## ShotoNoob

I'm beginning to get the grappler approach.  thanks all for the lesson.  still looking over....
|
P.S. I get the reality-based 'pop-up,' stomp on crotch & run.  My instinct is to finish on ground, permanently....


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> With the knife near your face?
> 
> And yes that is an option.



The knife isn't near your face.  Additionally, you're controlling his knife arm with both your arms and your body weight.

Another angle;









drop bear said:


> My big fear is that ha follows you up.
> 
> Scoot around so your pop up puts you last point of contact puts your foot on his wrist?



That's a good point. Also depending on where you pop up, and his level of training, he can sweep you off your feet while still on his back. If Kman pops up near his legs, he's in prime position to get his legs kicked out, and swept.


----------



## Instructor

K-man said:


> Against a trained grappler that isn't as easy as it sounds. This is really the first time I haven't been able to get a good position and the disarm, hence the thread. My partner was using his legs to keep me from gaining position and at the same time threatening to catch me in his guard. I'm starting to think my best option may have been to get up, perhaps give him a good kick to a leg and get away.


 
Getting free and running away is a perfectly valid defense.  Keep us posted on your progress.  Some video of the solution would be fantastic.  I've learned that against a skilled grappler very little is as it seems.

I am sort of surprised by the reception my ideas had on this thread.  If a person attacks you with a knife and it ends up in them seems like a reasonable exchange to me.  Of course ideally nobody would get harmed but let's face it, this is a life and death knife fight on the ground, which is about a hairy of fight as it get's.  It might come down to it being you or them.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

drop bear said:


> Hip out should break the throat grip.
> 
> Ok. What if we didn't?  He is trying to re guard then let him. Downward elbows and a keylock.



*I would not advocate letting him put you into the half guard or full guard nor popping up to knee on stomach*. (to much potential space on knee on stomach)  Unless you pop up to knee on stomach and place your leg/shin nearest to the knife bearing hand on his forearm on the knife bearing hand. (then it works)    Nor would I advocate changing my body position to the opposite side in crossbody/side control.  To much movement, potential space and during that movement I may lose control of his knife bearing hand or be swept/reversed and now fighting from my back.  The easiest, most efficient method is to simply move up his body with off hand getting an underhook and maintain control of his knife bearing hand and then place your left shin also on his knife bearing arm.  Then headbutt that guy unconscious and or bite his face off or neck/ear and then take the knife.  Simple and efficient! 

Tony mentioned above that if you did not have grappling experience of getting up and kicking them in the crotch before they get up.  I wouldn't advocate that as you already have grabbed his knife hand.  You have achieved *one of the most difficult things to achieve* already.  You simply would not want to give that up.  Could it work if you kick them in the crotch, sure as anything is possible but is it in your best interest,  probably not!  You may kick him in the crotch or face and just piss him off!  You, *voluntarily* gave up control of that knife hand and you will probably have to "*run the gauntlet*" again to achieve some semblance of similar control.  Your chances have been reduced a lot.  You may not be able to run away as well he may be faster than you!  If you have some semblance of control you try to achieve more control and dominate from there.  If it does go somewhere else then you deal with that but otherwise dominate from where you are at in this position by moving up on the same side of his knife bearing arm.

*Now in IRT we grapple with knives a lot and is an eye opener when you do not have the knife.*  I will utilize Brazilian Jiujitsu movement with some modifications but I also look to some Silat and southern Philippines grappling as well.  Limb placement on arms or walking the body is essential.  I learned this also in Budo Taijutsu from Doron Navon when grappling on the ground with weapons and empty hands.

Bottom line if they have the knife, you need to neutralize them quickly!  *If you do not, your probably dead or seriously maimed!  *You simply do not have a lot of time and or any need to do some thing complicated.  Just keep it simple!


----------



## Hanzou

Left shin over the knife arm, while maintaining control of the wrist with your left arm, AND an underhook to maintain control of the left side of his body? Then you start headbutting the guy or biting his face?

That requires less movement than slipping into mount or side mount and simply breaking the arm?

I'm going to need a visual of that one. That sounds crazy (in a bad-*** sort of way).


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Yes Hanzou,

Less movement with just a simple slide up the body while checking his knife wielding hand.  Really limits his options.


----------



## Blindside

drop bear said:


> Catching you in guard would have worked against him.


 
I realize this is from a couple of pages back, but why is going to guard a bad thing for the guy with the knife?


----------



## KydeX

Even with my limited time in BJJ (about 6 months), I am pretty sure if I was the knife man on bottom, I could get out of that position without too much trouble. And keep the knife as well.

My experience from ground fighting bjj style has shown me that if you are about equal in skill level, it is very hard to put someone in an arm lock. I've had better luck with chokes, but that means giving up arm control. Which you obviously don't want. Ground fighting with someone more skilled than you and you will likely never get a lock on them.


----------



## K-man

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *I would not advocate letting him put you into the half guard or full guard nor popping up to knee on stomach*. (to much potential space on knee on stomach)  Unless you pop up to knee on stomach and place your leg/shin nearest to the knife bearing hand on his forearm on the knife bearing hand. (then it works)    Nor would I advocate changing my body position to the opposite side in crossbody/side control.  To much movement, potential space and during that movement I may lose control of his knife bearing hand or be swept/reversed and now fighting from my back.  The easiest, most efficient method is to simply move up his body with off hand getting an underhook and maintain control of his knife bearing hand and then place your left shin also on his knife bearing arm.  Then headbutt that guy unconscious and or bite his face off or neck/ear and then take the knife.  Simple and efficient!
> 
> Tony mentioned above that if you did not have grappling experience of getting up and kicking them in the crotch before they get up.  I wouldn't advocate that as you already have grabbed his knife hand.  You have achieved *one of the most difficult things to achieve* already.  You simply would not want to give that up.  Could it work if you kick them in the crotch, sure as anything is possible but is it in your best interest,  probably not!  You may kick him in the crotch or face and just piss him off!  You, *voluntarily* gave up control of that knife hand and you will probably have to "*run the gauntlet*" again to achieve some semblance of similar control.  Your chances have been reduced a lot.  You may not be able to run away as well he may be faster than you!  If you have some semblance of control you try to achieve more control and dominate from there.  If it does go somewhere else then you deal with that but otherwise dominate from where you are at in this position by moving up on the same side of his knife bearing arm.
> 
> *Now in IRT we grapple with knives a lot and is an eye opener when you do not have the knife.*  I will utilize Brazilian Jiujitsu movement with some modifications but I also look to some Silat and southern Philippines grappling as well.  Limb placement on arms or walking the body is essential.  I learned this also in Budo Taijutsu from Doron Navon when grappling on the ground with weapons and empty hands.
> 
> Bottom line if they have the knife, you need to neutralize them quickly!  *If you do not, your probably dead or seriously maimed!  *You simply do not have a lot of time and or any need to do some thing complicated.  Just keep it simple!


There's a lot here. I had the knife and a good hold. It is a real knife (blunt) and I still manage to cop two cuts. There was no compliance and we both desperately wanted that knife. To be honest I can't remember how it ended. I think I had my left shin over his arm and muscled the knife out of his hand. Probably, if the knife was sharp, would have cut my hand badly in the process. Again, I can't remember if I had the opportunity for striking in those later stages, I might have, but that wasn't really what I was trying to achieve. I think the main thing was, I had a good grip and come hell or high water I teach you don't let go and normally you don't even try to change your grip. The other thing was although I don't do a lot of rolling I can normally keep out of trouble and against most people get into position for an arm bar or choke. Of course I'm not talking here of highly trained grapplers. 

In this particular scenario, and I can't remember how I got where I was, I may have lost a more favourable position. I normally end up with my knee on the chest when someone pulls me down and easily get an arm across the throat in a reasonable side control, but for some reason I ended up in the position pictured.

Interesting scenario and a really interesting discussion. Thank you one and all.


----------



## K-man

Instructor said:


> Getting free and running away is a perfectly valid defense.  Keep us posted on your progress.  Some video of the solution would be fantastic.  I've learned that against a skilled grappler very little is as it seems.
> 
> I am sort of surprised by the reception my ideas had on this thread.  If a person attacks you with a knife and it ends up in them seems like a reasonable exchange to me.  Of course ideally nobody would get harmed but let's face it, this is a life and death knife fight on the ground, which is about a hairy of fight as it get's.  It might come down to it being you or them.


I think the laws vary from country to country. In the US you seem to have more acceptance of the use of lethal force, particularly when it comes to firearms and the defence of property. In Australia it is totally different. Any use of a weapon causing death would involve a police investigation and a Coronial inquiry at the very least. If there was any suggestion you had gone beyond the definition of self defence into the area of retaliation then you may very well end up in jail, especially if there were no witnesses. 

So in our situation justification might be that you needed to stab your attacker so you could safely leave the situation you were in, or if there were others attacking you, but either way you are going to have to justify your actions.


----------



## Tgace

What do you think happens in America when someone is killed?


----------



## K-man

Tgace said:


> What do you think happens in America when someone is killed?


Probably the same, however it appears from the press reports we get here that many times people are exonerated in situations that here would see them in jail. 

Of course the other thing that colours our understanding are the comments, even on this forum, where people say that if 'XYZ' happened they wouldn't hesitate to kill the guy. As I said, you guys, in the main, have a greater acceptance of the use of lethal force.


----------



## Hanzou

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Yes Hanzou,
> 
> Less movement with just a simple slide up the body while checking his knife wielding hand.  Really limits his options.



Okay, but you're talking about sliding your left shin all the way up to his arm as opposed to sliding your right leg across his hips for the mount. based on Kman's starting position, wouldn't that require a larger range of movement?

Also what about the under hook? How is that accomplished with the shin and arm checking the knife wielding hand?

Like I said, I think I need a visual.


----------



## Steve

Can I just ask a simple question?  Am I the only one who is most concerned about the guy on the bottom easily taking the back or reversing?  Just looking again at that pic from K-man, he has zero base untill he controls the OTHER hand (bad guy's left arm).  It just seems like the discussion keeps glossing past this talking about finishing and such. 

Move number one for k-man, get the underhook with his right arm.  I can't think of any movement more critical than to protect his back.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Hanzou said:


> Okay, but you're talking about sliding your left shin all the way up to his arm as opposed to sliding your right leg across his hips for the mount. based on Kman's starting position, wouldn't that require a larger range of movement?
> 
> Also what about the under hook? How is that accomplished with the shin and arm checking the knife wielding hand?
> 
> Like I said, I think I need a visual.



No it really is a small range of movement and keeps focus on defending against the knife while not allowing a reversal or space that your opponent could use.  I will try to get something visual for you eventually just busy right at this moment.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Steve said:


> Can I just ask a simple question?  Am I the only one who is most concerned about the guy on the bottom easily taking the back or reversing?  Just looking again at that pic from K-man, he has zero base untill he controls the OTHER hand (bad guy's left arm).  It just seems like the discussion keeps glossing past this talking about finishing and such.
> 
> Move number one for k-man, get the underhook with his right arm.  I can't think of any movement more critical than to protect his back.



Abslutely that is a huge concern Steve!


----------



## Hanzou

Remember Brian, this is the starting position;


View attachment 19232

That left shin has to get all the way to the knife wielding arm.


----------



## Hanzou

Steve said:


> Can I just ask a simple question?  Am I the only one who is most concerned about the guy on the bottom easily taking the back or reversing?  Just looking again at that pic from K-man, he has zero base untill he controls the OTHER hand (bad guy's left arm).  It just seems like the discussion keeps glossing past this talking about finishing and such.
> 
> Move number one for k-man, get the underhook with his right arm.  I can't think of any movement more critical than to protect his back.



I mentioned it in my first post. So no, you're not the only one.


----------



## Steve

Okay! I was worried.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*Hey Hanzou, yes I am aware of the starting position but thanks for posting the photo again for everyone*.  I looked at the photo a bunch and then went out and worked the exact position on the Submission Master grappling dummy with a training knife. (a very cool gift from a student)  I haven't had a chance to work it in any of my private lessons or group classes due to what we have been covering lately but fortunately I have been grappling with weapons for like forever.  I have been close to this position in training before. (minus being stretched out)  In regards to going to the mount we also have to take into effect the up, over and down distance of the opponent's belly.  That adds some length to going to the mount.  Also if you go to the mount, you would with no resistance from your opponent just slide into it.  While with resistance you could only do the knee driven method. (imagine doing the knee driven method while concentrating on the knife. (yikes)  Hip switch to the mount would obviously be out of the question because of turning your back on the knife as well as totally weakening your grip while doing it. (definitely not doing that)  If you meet no resistance and just slide to the mount as you are doing it your grip is going to be slightly weakened as well due to length and angle. (unless you have really long arms and or a huge size disparity)  Coming up the same side by achieving right side control with an underhook with your right hand and moving up his body on the left side you should not suffer any loss of grip on the knife bearing hand.  Your grip strength and thumb angle, position of your arm, etc. is going to be very important until you stabilize it via your shin, etc. 

When looking at this particular position I see a positional 1, 2, 3 order of:

1.  Stay on the same side and work your way up while utilizing an underhook and eventually placing your shin on the opponents knife bearing arm and head butting and or biting him until unconscious and then taking the knife. 

2.  Go to knee on Stomach and while popping up to knee on stomach while also placing your left leg/shin on opponents knife bearing arm simultaneously.  Then head butt, bite, etc. unconsciousness for him and taking the knife.

3.  If meeting no resistance then possibly go to the mount and once achieving it both hands could have to address the knife bearing hand and you could go for the straight armbar from the video you posted. (from the munt)  I would probably though be more inclined instead to place my left shin over the knife bearing arm while keeping my hand there for control as well in a modified mount. (walking the body)  Then head butts, bitting, and the right arm elbow until they are unconscious and then taking the knife.

What I do not see myself doing is transitioning to the opposite side.  Could it happen, sure.  Would I purposely go their as a first option no!  I could also see being half guarded and having to work from there but I wouldn't choose it. *Of course everything that I do would also depend on what he was doing and that really could change everything!!!*  So never say never be flexible and adapt!  Train with a training knife in this position, knee on stomach, guard, half guard, mount, back, crossbody/side control, etc, etc.  Train against an opponent drawing a knife as well as you drawing a knife while training.   Think outside the box and play with it and see what you come up with.  Kudo's to K-man for experimenting and exploring!  That is what good training is all about!  Do not be afraid to explore, experiment, ask questions, *fail*, etc.  Most importantly do not think you know it all because nobody does.  I am totally open to anybody else's ideas and or opinion's and if someone comes up with some thing really good I am there and will steal it for my training! 

One thing you will definitely like Hanzou is that BJJ gives you great tools for dealing with a knife on the ground provided you explore it in training!

Just some of my thoughts on the matter based on training experience grappling with knives and beating up on that dummy the last couple of day's.


----------



## Hanzou

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Hey Hanzou, yes I am aware of the starting position but thanks for posting the photo again for everyone*.  I looked at the photo a bunch and then went out and worked the exact position on the Submission Master grappling dummy with a training knife. (a very cool gift from a student)  I haven't had a chance to work it in any of my private lessons or group classes due to what we have been covering lately but fortunately I have been grappling with weapons for like forever.  I have been close to this position in training before. (minus being stretched out)  In regards to going to the mount we also have to take into effect the up, over and down distance of the opponent's belly.  That adds some length to going to the mount.



But not nearly the length required to go from the starting position to left shin over arm. Especially when you are already underhooking his left arm with your right arm.




> Also if you go to the mount, you would with no resistance from your opponent just slide into it.  While with resistance you could only do the knee driven method. (imagine doing the knee driven method while concentrating on the knife. (yikes)  Hip switch to the mount would obviously be out of the question because of turning your back on the knife as well as totally weakening your grip while doing it. (definitely not doing that)  If you meet no resistance and just slide to the mount as you are doing it your grip is going to be slightly weakened as well due to length and angle. (unless you have really long arms and or a huge size disparity)  Coming up the same side by achieving right side control with an underhook with your right hand and moving up his body on the left side you should not suffer any loss of grip on the knife bearing hand.  Your grip strength and thumb angle, position of your arm, etc. is going to be very important until you stabilize it via your shin, etc.



I find your belief that it requires your opponent to be offering no resistance for you to take mount a little bizarre. Surely you've mounted someone under resistance. I'm sure you've mounted experienced grapplers who are fully resisting you. Why do you feel that this knife-wielding assailant, who very likely has limited to no grappling experience, would make it more difficult to achieve mounted position when you already control their upper body thanks to the underhook, your body weight, and your left arm pinning down the knife hand?



> When looking at this particular position I see a positional 1, 2, 3 order of:
> 
> 1.  Stay on the same side and work your way up while utilizing an underhook and eventually placing your shin on the opponents knife bearing arm and head butting and or biting him until unconscious and then taking the knife.
> 
> 2.  Go to knee on Stomach and while popping up to knee on stomach while also placing your left leg/shin on opponents knife bearing arm simultaneously.  Then head butt, bite, etc. unconsciousness for him and taking the knife.
> 
> 3.  If meeting no resistance then possibly go to the mount and once achieving it both hands could have to address the knife bearing hand and you could go for the straight armbar from the video you posted. (from the munt)  I would probably though be more inclined instead to place my left shin over the knife bearing arm while keeping my hand there for control as well in a modified mount. (walking the body)  Then head butts, bitting, and the right arm elbow until they are unconscious and then taking the knife.



You're going for the head butting and biting because your hands are occupied. Why not go for the arm break first, which will make the weapon disarm easier, and allow you to free your hands?

Again, no offense, but I'm not seeing the efficiency in this method. If you can get your shin all the way up to the arm, why can't you get your right shin over his right hip on the exact same side as your under hook? Why are you depending on knocking this guy out with head butts and biting (both of which might not work, and can cause you to lose control of your holds) when you can simply mount him, control him completely, and take the knife out of the equation and free up your hands?



> Just some of my thoughts on the matter based on training experience grappling with knives and beating up on that dummy the last couple of day's.



And I completely respect that experience. Don't ever doubt that.  I simply think that in our efforts to try to apply self defense methods, or street tactics, we occasionally lose the efficiency/simplicity that our standard training already provides. Prime example being going for a throat grab or an eye gouge instead of an underhook.


----------



## drop bear

Blindside said:


> I realize this is from a couple of pages back, but why is going to guard a bad thing for the guy with the knife?



Your biggest risk is that he hips/shrimps out. That k man was preventing an escape to standing with one hand and half a shoulder is fascinating as a full side control struggles to prevent that. I will give it a go. But knife guy should have walked straight out of that.

But if he re guards. I get that holding him down hand free. Because he is moving back in to attack. A hand free gives me gnp elbows and two on one control of that knife.

Even if I got half guard he is being trapped there.

I don't have to get a full key lock. I just have to get that knife close enough too stab him in the ear.

So he has to get a sub while dodging punches and controlling that knife. That is a lot of jobs for one person.

Knife guy if he did want to get clever with legs should be trying to get his hooks in with his opposite leg and breakdancing his way to a better position.

There is all of this funky leg swichy movements you can get from there.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> Your biggest risk is that he hips/shrimps out. That k man was preventing an escape to standing with one hand and half a shoulder is fascinating as a full side control struggles to prevent that. I will give it a go. But knife guy should have walked straight out of that.



That's also a good point. If he knows what he's doing, he can escape a lot of stuff just with his hips and legs. 

Along with controlling the upper body, controlling the hips should be considered as well if you're planning to neutralize him on the ground.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> That's also a good point. If he knows what he's doing, he can escape a lot of stuff just with his hips and legs.
> 
> Along with controlling the upper body, controlling the hips should be considered as well if you're planning to neutralize him on the ground.



You could underhook or ovehook with your right arm to get that control. But then you both might wind up trapped there. 

Anyway this is randy doing a half guard escape.





Which if I was knive guy I would be going for.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Left shin over the knife arm, while maintaining control of the wrist with your left arm, AND an underhook to maintain control of the left side of his body? Then you start headbutting the guy or biting his face?
> 
> That requires less movement than slipping into mount or side mount and simply breaking the arm?
> 
> I'm going to need a visual of that one. That sounds crazy (in a bad-*** sort of way).


If you had a shin an a left arm on that knife arm you could pin the arm and then goose neck the knife out.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Hey Hanzou, yes I am aware of the starting position but thanks for posting the photo again for everyone*.  I looked at the photo a bunch and then went out and worked the exact position on the Submission Master grappling dummy with a training knife. (a very cool gift from a student)  I haven't had a chance to work it in any of my private lessons or group classes due to what we have been covering lately but fortunately I have been grappling with weapons for like forever.  I have been close to this position in training before. (minus being stretched out)  In regards to going to the mount we also have to take into effect the up, over and down distance of the opponent's belly.  That adds some length to going to the mount.  Also if you go to the mount, you would with no resistance from your opponent just slide into it.  While with resistance you could only do the knee driven method. (imagine doing the knee driven method while concentrating on the knife. (yikes)  Hip switch to the mount would obviously be out of the question because of turning your back on the knife as well as totally weakening your grip while doing it. (definitely not doing that)  If you meet no resistance and just slide to the mount as you are doing it your grip is going to be slightly weakened as well due to length and angle. (unless you have really long arms and or a huge size disparity)  Coming up the same side by achieving right side control with an underhook with your right hand and moving up his body on the left side you should not suffer any loss of grip on the knife bearing hand.  Your grip strength and thumb angle, position of your arm, etc. is going to be very important until you stabilize it via your shin, etc.
> 
> When looking at this particular position I see a positional 1, 2, 3 order of:
> 
> 1.  Stay on the same side and work your way up while utilizing an underhook and eventually placing your shin on the opponents knife bearing arm and head butting and or biting him until unconscious and then taking the knife.
> 
> 2.  Go to knee on Stomach and while popping up to knee on stomach while also placing your left leg/shin on opponents knife bearing arm simultaneously.  Then head butt, bite, etc. unconsciousness for him and taking the knife.
> 
> 3.  If meeting no resistance then possibly go to the mount and once achieving it both hands could have to address the knife bearing hand and you could go for the straight armbar from the video you posted. (from the munt)  I would probably though be more inclined instead to place my left shin over the knife bearing arm while keeping my hand there for control as well in a modified mount. (walking the body)  Then head butts, bitting, and the right arm elbow until they are unconscious and then taking the knife.
> 
> What I do not see myself doing is transitioning to the opposite side.  Could it happen, sure.  Would I purposely go their as a first option no!  I could also see being half guarded and having to work from there but I wouldn't choose it. *Of course everything that I do would also depend on what he was doing and that really could change everything!!!*  So never say never be flexible and adapt!  Train with a training knife in this position, knee on stomach, guard, half guard, mount, back, crossbody/side control, etc, etc.  Train against an opponent drawing a knife as well as you drawing a knife while training.   Think outside the box and play with it and see what you come up with.  Kudo's to K-man for experimenting and exploring!  That is what good training is all about!  Do not be afraid to explore, experiment, ask questions, *fail*, etc.  Most importantly do not think you know it all because nobody does.  I am totally open to anybody else's ideas and or opinion's and if someone comes up with some thing really good I am there and will steal it for my training!
> 
> One thing you will definitely like Hanzou is that BJJ gives you great tools for dealing with a knife on the ground provided you explore it in training!
> 
> Just some of my thoughts on the matter based on training experience grappling with knives and beating up on that dummy the last couple of day's.



If you have an underhook ha can put his forearm in your throat and you cant head butt.


----------



## Blindside

Underhooking the knifers left arm


drop bear said:


> Your biggest risk is that he hips/shrimps out. That k man was preventing an escape to standing with one hand and half a shoulder is fascinating as a full side control struggles to prevent that. I will give it a go. But knife guy should have walked straight out of that.
> 
> But if he re guards. I get that holding him down hand free. Because he is moving back in to attack. A hand free gives me gnp elbows and two on one control of that knife.
> 
> Even if I got half guard he is being trapped there.
> 
> I don't have to get a full key lock. I just have to get that knife close enough too stab him in the ear.
> 
> So he has to get a sub while dodging punches and controlling that knife. That is a lot of jobs for one person.
> 
> Knife guy if he did want to get clever with legs should be trying to get his hooks in with his opposite leg and breakdancing his way to a better position.
> 
> There is all of this funky leg swichy movements you can get from there.



I just want to point out that from guard the opportunity to use the feet or hands to free the weapon hand becomes available.

Edit: pertinent info starts at 3:40 or so.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

drop bear said:


> If you have an underhook ha can put his forearm in your throat and you cant head butt.



As a late game move this is a possibility if your opponent is slow and methodical and sloppy.  However, if you the knife wielding person go early and treat your arm like an bent arm lock/Americana defense and go and grab your own arm you can bring it back to your core and then cut and of course work for better position.  Early game and it would be a really good defensive move Drop Bear!  For every movement though there will always be a counter or several or more.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Hanzou said:


> But not nearly the length required to go from the starting position to left shin over arm. Especially when you are already underhooking his left arm with your right arm.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find your belief that it requires your opponent to be offering no resistance for you to take mount a little bizarre. Surely you've mounted someone under resistance. I'm sure you've mounted experienced grapplers who are fully resisting you. Why do you feel that this knife-wielding assailant, who very likely has limited to no grappling experience, would make it more difficult to achieve mounted position when you already control their upper body thanks to the underhook, your body weight, and your left arm pinning down the knife hand?
> 
> 
> 
> You're going for the head butting and biting because your hands are occupied. Why not go for the arm break first, which will make the weapon disarm easier, and allow you to free your hands?
> 
> Again, no offense, but I'm not seeing the efficiency in this method. If you can get your shin all the way up to the arm, why can't you get your right shin over his right hip on the exact same side as your under hook? Why are you depending on knocking this guy out with head butts and biting (both of which might not work, and can cause you to lose control of your holds) when you can simply mount him, control him completely, and take the knife out of the equation and free up your hands?
> 
> 
> 
> And I completely respect that experience. Don't ever doubt that.  I simply think that in our efforts to try to apply self defense methods, or street tactics, we occasionally lose the efficiency/simplicity that our standard training already provides. Prime example being going for a throat grab or an eye gouge instead of an underhook.



*One of the things we have to take into account here is that while moving one of our limbs is occupied*.  I cannot take it away from his knife bearing arm.  I have to keep it at an angle that is good for me and bad for him.  Coming up same side I do that.  Heck even jumping to a knee on stomach with my shin on his arm I do it.  When I try to go for the mount the angles change a tiny bit which will make it harder for me to keep a strong stable grip.  Can it be done, sure.  Is it dangerous for me, yes.

One thing to remember is that anything we do can be countered at some point.  If you have never grappled with a knife then your going to need to put in time doing so to have a really informed opinion.  Unarmed grappling while very similar is a little different than armed grappling.  Things you can do with impunity unarmed will get you stabbed repeated if your opponent has a knife or pulls a knife.  While BJJ movement is a great base for unarmed grappling unless you are grappling armed regularly it doesn't prepare you fully.  If you ever want to come to Vegas I can show you quite a bit more on not only grappling against a knife but where and when you can pull your knife and or while grappling and also of course how to retain your tools. 

In the meantime why don't you get a partner after class and use a training knife while grappling.  Go no-gi with the knife in the waistband and treat it that it is a folding knife that you are unaware of and when he pulls it out then you better start addressing it.  Anytime it touches your body you are being cut and if he presses stabbed.  This is a good reality check on the danger your will face.


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## drop bear

We were having a play with this. Scooting around to a two on one grab at the wrist works pretty well


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## Blindside

We played with this tonight, best result was left shin over weapon forearm, right arm hooked behind opponent's head/neck,, left hand punching and elbowing to the face.  

Other option was bringing the right knee under the arm holding the knife, then transitioning to a head and arm with an armbar, sort of like this:


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## Instructor

How securely were you able to pin the weapon arm with the shin.  Could uke rotate the wrist and cut your leg with the knife?  My primary concern is your achilles tendon.


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## drop bear

Instructor said:


> How securely were you able to pin the weapon arm with the shin.  Could uke rotate the wrist and cut your leg with the knife?  My primary concern is your achilles tendon.



We did it and got a bit you get the side though not the back.


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## Instructor

You might try replacing the knife with a washable magic marker.  It might give you some idea of how much the blade would contact if at all.


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## drop bear

Instructor said:


> You might try replacing the knife with a washable magic marker.  It might give you some idea of how much the blade would contact if at all.



In that scenario you can tell. It takes a bit of time to get the knife around and you don't get much pressure because you just have the wrist. And you still have a hand to fight for that knife if you want.

I still think the two on one grab works a bit better. But in a pinch pinning with the shin will do the job.


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## Blindside

drop bear said:


> In that scenario you can tell. It takes a bit of time to get the knife around and you don't get much pressure because you just have the wrist. And you still have a hand to fight for that knife if you want.
> 
> I still think the two on one grab works a bit better. But in a pinch pinning with the shin will do the job.



With both hands occupied by the weapon, how did you control the rest of the body or was it a transition to a standup and escape?


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## drop bear

Blindside said:


> With both hands occupied by the weapon, how did you control the rest of the body or was it a transition to a standup and escape?



Knife guy cant do all that much with the arm pinned. I stood up and just dragged the am up with me,kick the guys head off.

But you could knee neck ride or escape. You get a lot of options.


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## Instructor

Grappling is in many ways about asset management.  Most of us have two hands, two elbows, two arms, two legs, two knees, two feet, one torso, and one head (amongst other things).  Uke has all of these things, and a knife....
Maybe BJJ has a different view but to a Hapkidoin, rolling about on the ground with a knife wielding assailant is pure madness.  I still think a quick nasty strike with a free hand, head, or knee while maintaining control of the weapon and getting off the ground is the way to go.
BJJ prefers the ground because that's it's element but in this case, it's a mistake.


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## Blindside

Instructor said:


> Grappling is in many ways about asset management.  Most of us have two hands, two elbows, two arms, two legs, two knees, two feet, one torso, and one head (amongst other things).  Uke has all of these things, and a knife....
> Maybe BJJ has a different view but to a Hapkidoin, rolling about on the ground with a knife wielding assailant is pure madness.  I still think a quick nasty strike with a free hand, head, or knee while maintaining control of the weapon and getting off the ground is the way to go.
> BJJ prefers the ground because that's it's element but in this case, it's a mistake.



I don't disagree, if I can stand up and maintain a good control that would be great but sometimes I can't.  Drop Bear's suggestion was a transition to standing, so I don't see where you are getting this BJJ vs Hapkido take on the post.


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## drop bear

Instructor said:


> Grappling is in many ways about asset management.  Most of us have two hands, two elbows, two arms, two legs, two knees, two feet, one torso, and one head (amongst other things).  Uke has all of these things, and a knife....
> Maybe BJJ has a different view but to a Hapkidoin, rolling about on the ground with a knife wielding assailant is pure madness.  I still think a quick nasty strike with a free hand, head, or knee while maintaining control of the weapon and getting off the ground is the way to go.
> BJJ prefers the ground because that's it's element but in this case, it's a mistake.



You can secure more limbs because you can pin with your legs and gravity. They are less mobile. Your hits have more effect and you can run away a bit easier.

We need to take into account that you are not really grabbing knives off people standing up very easily either.


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## Tony Dismukes

Okay, I wasn't able to get video, but I finally got a chance to experiment with some training partners last night.

General consensus was that the best solution was that proposed by my friend Derek, as follows:

First priority is to neutralize the weapon. Not the arm - in that position the bottom guy is about one second from reaching over with his far arm, switching the knife to his left hand and going to town.

Switch your right hand from the throat to a far-side underhook, with enough weight on your opponent's body to keep him from turning towards you and reaching for the knife with the free hand. (As others have noted, this also stops him from taking your back.) You'll need mobility to move up towards your opponent's head, so get off your knees and onto the balls of your feet. As you move up, take your outside foot and stomp on your opponent's knife hand. It's a street self-defense situation, so you're wearing shoes, right? Keep his wrist pinned to the floor with your left hand, his body flattened out with your right underhook, and just stomp on his pinned hand until his fingers are broken or he lets go of the knife. Then kick the knife away, move to your favorite version of side mount or knee mount, and beat the crap out of him or choke him out.

I was able to make my original ideas work(popping up to knee mount or using a two-on-one grab while pinning his body with my head), but both of those approaches had more moving parts and potential steps to mess something up before I got to a successful finish. Derek's idea was more direct and required less advanced grappling skill. I could make my ideas work because I'm a BJJ black belt. Derek's approach was something that a good white belt might be able to pull off.


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## Instructor

Blindside said:


> I don't disagree, if I can stand up and maintain a good control that would be great but sometimes I can't.  Drop Bear's suggestion was a transition to standing, so I don't see where you are getting this BJJ vs Hapkido take on the post.


 
Oh Sorry!  I posted before I had read down to the end of the thread.  Agree with Drop Bear completely on a strategic dismount.  Also did not mean to pit BJJ vs Hapkido into the argument, it has no place here.  Only that I am a Hapkido guy and commenting on a BJJ thread.


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## K-man

Instructor said:


> Oh Sorry!  I posted before I had read down to the end of the thread.  Agree with Drop Bear completely on a strategic dismount.  Also did not mean to pit BJJ vs Hapkido into the argument, it has no place here.  Only that I am a Hapkido guy and commenting on a BJJ thread.


It's a BJJ thread because I was seeking BJJ input. Hapkido input is just as valued.


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## K-man

Tony Dismukes said:


> Okay, I wasn't able to get video, but I finally got a chance to experiment with some training partners last night.
> 
> General consensus was that the best solution was that proposed by my friend Derek, as follows:
> 
> First priority is to neutralize the weapon. Not the arm - in that position the bottom guy is about one second from reaching over with his far arm, switching the knife to his left hand and going to town.
> 
> Switch your right hand from the throat to a far-side underhook, with enough weight on your opponent's body to keep him from turning towards you and reaching for the knife with the free hand. (As others have noted, this also stops him from taking your back.) You'll need mobility to move up towards your opponent's head, so get off your knees and onto the balls of your feet. As you move up, take your outside foot and stomp on your opponent's knife hand. It's a street self-defense situation, so you're wearing shoes, right? Keep his wrist pinned to the floor with your left hand, his body flattened out with your right underhook, and just stomp on his pinned hand until his fingers are broken or he lets go of the knife. Then kick the knife away, move to your favorite version of side mount or knee mount, and beat the crap out of him or choke him out.
> 
> I was able to make my original ideas work(popping up to knee mount or using a two-on-one grab while pinning his body with my head), but both of those approaches had more moving parts and potential steps to mess something up before I got to a successful finish. Derek's idea was more direct and required less advanced grappling skill. I could make my ideas work because I'm a BJJ black belt. Derek's approach was something that a good white belt might be able to pull off.


Well, we had a good session with it last night with the whole class trying the scenario from both sides. There were a number of interesting outcomes the most obvious one being, you don't want to be in this situation!

From the perspective of the guy with the knife. Yes, I could get out from the control and roll into a mount changing the knife to the other hand along the way. Moral of the story, if the guy with the knife has reasonable grappling skill you don't want to be in that position. However, as Chris Parker pointed out, although the grab to the throat or reach for the eyes was not really effective it was enough of a threat to keep a guy with grappling experience from doing what he might have been able to do in hindsight.

I reckon I tried most of the suggestions offered here. Sometimes I got the knife, sometimes I got away. Just about every time I would have been badly cut. To me and to all the others I saw, there was only one clear cut solution to the scenario. I could easily maintain control of the arm and keep my opponent on his back. If he moved position to try to change knife hand or even roll into the mount I could get up without being cut. Stomping in the hand or any other attempt at kicking was not really an option. Best advice, get away while you can. If you can get a decent kick in, fine, but don't rely on it.

Trying to fight over the knife and get a lock was virtually impossible once the knife guy started to fight back. Most moves resulted in getting cut. Sure you can end up with the knife but there would be a lot of blood on the ground.

The take home for me in this one is, if you end up on the ground in a weak position, such as happened in this case, take any opportunity to get up and away where you may then have time to grab something like a chair as a weapon to even up the situation. Continuing to grapple on the ground is an ego thing. It may work out or it may not. It's not worth the risk.


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## Tony Dismukes

K-man said:


> To me and to all the others I saw, there was only one clear cut solution to the scenario. I could easily maintain control of the arm and keep my opponent on his back. If he moved position to try to change knife hand or even roll into the mount I could get up without being cut. Stomping in the hand or any other attempt at kicking was not really an option.



Just to be clear, the solution I proposed was stomping on the opponent's knife hand *while* controlling his arm and keeping him on his back. How was that not an option?


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## K-man

Tony Dismukes said:


> Just to be clear, the solution I proposed was stomping on the opponent's knife hand *while* controlling his arm and keeping him on his back. How was that not an option?


I'm not a contortionist. 

But seriously, by the time you are in that situation where you can stomp on the wrist you haven't got the leverage to stop him moving. If he does get his wrist away you will be cut and standing where you are that could be the femoral artery. Another factor was the perspiration, which in a real situation could have been blood, making the wrist slippery and even harder to control. Far better to take the escape option and either run or grab something to use as a weapon.


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## Tony Dismukes

K-man said:


> I'm not a contortionist.
> 
> But seriously, by the time you are in that situation where you can stomp on the wrist you haven't got the leverage to stop him moving. If he does get his wrist away you will be cut and standing where you are that could be the femoral artery. Another factor was the perspiration, which in a real situation could have been blood, making the wrist slippery and even harder to control. Far better to take the escape option and either run or grab something to use as a weapon.


I think I must be failing to communicate the position. I guarantee you that neither Derek nor I are contortionists and we were able to apply reasonably solid pinning pressure while controlling the knife arm and stomping on the hand. If I have a chance I'll see if I can take some pictures.

As to your other point, I did say earlier that escaping and running/finding a weapon might be a better option for someone who isn't experienced in ground grappling.


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## K-man

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think I must be failing to communicate the position. I guarantee you that neither Derek nor I are contortionists and we were able to apply reasonably solid pinning pressure while controlling the knife arm and stomping on the hand. If I have a chance I'll see if I can take some pictures.


That would be good.



Tony Dismukes said:


> As to your other point, I did say earlier that escaping and running/finding a weapon might be a better option for someone who isn't experienced in ground grappling.


In hindsight, would probably say 'best' rather than 'better' and I would say that even for someone skilled in ground grappling, the knife is a game changer unless you have spent a lot of time grappling with a knife in play.


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## Tony Dismukes

K-man said:


> That would be good.
> 
> In hindsight, would probably say 'best' rather than 'better' and I would say that even for someone skilled in ground grappling, the knife is a game changer unless you have spent a lot of time grappling with a knife in play.


I would say the knife is a game changer regardless. Bare handed against a knife is definitely a situation where there are no guarantees, even if you do train for it regularly.


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## Steve

Seems like a knife would be a game changer whether on the ground or not, striking or grappling.   Anything will likely result in your getting cut.


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## drop bear

Steve said:


> Seems like a knife would be a game changer whether on the ground or not, striking or grappling.   Anything will likely result in your getting cut.



In fact on the ground you have extra limbs and gravity to immobilise the guy. Your strikes have more effect.  And you get a head start if you want to run away.


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## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> In fact on the ground you have extra limbs and gravity to immobilise the guy. Your strikes have more effect.  And you get a head start if you want to run away.



Yeah, I don't know if I would get up and run away if I have control of the knife hand on the ground, and I'm in position to be on top of him. That's a pretty advantageous set up, and you may not get that opportunity a second time.


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## Instructor

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, I don't know if I would get up and run away if I have control of the knife hand on the ground, and I'm in position to be on top of him. That's a pretty advantageous set up, and you may not get that opportunity a second time.


 
Till the whole mess flips over now you have a guy with a knife on top of you and gravity is driving that point your direction.


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## drop bear

Instructor said:


> Till the whole mess flips over now you have a guy with a knife on top of you and gravity is driving that point your direction.



It depends what you are trying to do. If you really want to get the knife off the guy. That is your shot. If you don't then don't even be standing there. Don't even be nearby. Get space get a barrier between you get a weapon.


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## Instructor

It's a gamble.....


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## Hanzou

Instructor said:


> Till the whole mess flips over now you have a guy with a knife on top of you and gravity is driving that point your direction.



Proper knowledge in grappling prevents that from happening.


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## drop bear

Instructor said:


> It's a gamble.....



Um........

You are fighting a guy for a knife. If you don't want to gamble.Don't fight people.

But it is less of a gamble than trying to get that knife if he stands up. It means that if you can't get that knife then and there you cant really be sharing a room with him.

So sometimes that is it. You have to win that exchange, gamble or not. Sorry. I don't want knife fights to be crap either. But they just are.


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