# KT:Good Kenpo/Bad Kenpo



## Clark Kent (Oct 2, 2012)

*Good Kenpo/Bad Kenpo
By J Ellis - 10-02-2012 06:01 PM
Originally Posted at: KenpoTalk*
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I guess if MMA is the gold standard for what works and how to train....

	Quote:
 *Good Kenpo/Bad Kenpo*


What you are about to read will offend most Kenpo practitioners... 


We are in no way, shape or form affiliated with Ed  Parkers American Kenpo Karate.  It is in my humble opinion that 99% of  Kenpo, the way most schools teach it, is useless.  I am a big fan of  K.I.S.S., keep it simple stupid.  The Ed Parker American Kenpo Karate is  a wonderful art form.  I am not, however, looking for art.  I am  looking for combat application. 


Ever since Art "one glove" Jimmerson took on Royce  Gracie, boxing has come a long way.  Royce beat Art like a redheaded  step-child, but MMA fighters have learned how to use boxing to their  advantage.  In fact, to fight MMA at a top level, you have to know how  to box. Boxing utilizes a few punches, but from every angle imaginable  with many different set-ups.  That is what makes it effective. 


Kenpo, especially the Parker system, has taken a  good thing and complicated it.  Just the vocabulary alone throws any  pretense of self defense right out the window.  Sounding cool and  looking cool won't protect you. 


Kenpo has stayed "stone age."  I am sure if Ed  Parker were alive, he would change it once again.  The Kenpo he taught  in the 1960's is much different from what he was doing in the 1980's. 


You cannot learn how to defend against a  wrestler's takedown unless you go against a wrestler.  Kenpo has very  poor takedowns.  Learn to sprawl. 

Kenpo doesn't have very many submissions, has  plenty of breaks, rips and very brutal smashes.  You have to have a very  intense mind set, maybe even partly sociopathic, to eye gouge a drunk  bum taking a poke at you, which the average Kenpo practitioner doesn't  have... Unless it is automatic and your body doesn't have to think about  it, which comes from drilling the technique at least 10,000 times. 


Kenpo hasn't done well in Mixed Martial Arts  competitions.  Zane Frasier, 4th degree Ed Parker American Kenpo Karate  black belt, got stomped to pieces by big, fat Kevin Rosier.  Zane was  using mostly boxing with hair pulling.  The slap art didn't stop big  Kevin.  Zane got a hillbilly stomp on the ribs and neck before giving  up. 


Keith Hackney did a little better by beating 600  pound Emmanuel Yarborough with one hell of a palm heel strike, but his  Kenpo looked like a military blanket party once it hit the ground.  Zero  sophistication.  When Keith fought Marco Ruas, Marco looked pro, Keith  looked amateur. 


Royler Gracie simply schooled a Sam Kuoha black  belt, Karo Ho Kempo practitioner.  The Kempo stylist claimed to have  developed a complete system, turned out he was wrong. 


Oleg Taktarov fought an American Kenpo black belt.  He simply shamed Kenpo. 


Will Kenpo change with the times, or will it go by  the way of most Traditional Martial Arts?  If you are teaching Kenpo,  cross train with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Boxing, Muay Thai, American and  Greco Roman Wrestling, and study, add, and simplify your overly complex  art.  Change it to a combative art once again.  And by god, how about  some conditioning?  Are all Kenpo guys out of shape?  Stop doing  worthless kata's and start skipping rope. 


Kenpo is not the only guilty art.  When Kimo gave  Royce a good run, all the Tae Kwon Do guys were telling me how good Tae  Kwon Do was, until I pointed out how Kimo only threw one sloppy punch  and zero kicks.  After that he started studying Gracie Jiu Jitsu. 


Cal Worsham flying the Tae Kwon Do banner threw  punches like a school girl only to get hammered by big Paul Varleans.  Todd Medina, a Jeet Kune Do specialist performed a sloppy take down,  then mounted and head butted his opponent until his own eye was swollen  shut.  I never saw Bruce Lee do that, but I am sure he would approve.   Todd has since improved and is quite an MMA fighter.   


Until Kenpo proves itself in the ring, I will train my Kenpo my way, by blending it. 


Every Kenpo guy I talk to always brings up eye  gouges, as well they should, but they act like that is best technique  ever.  That is how all the Kenpo practitioners tell me they would beat a  boxer.  Imagine Roy Jones Jr. or Sugar Ray Leonard, or Muhammed Ali  being allowed to eye gouge.  Game over. 


Win, lose or draw... train hard and get in the ring.		

http://minnesotaselfdefense.com/index.php?id=6


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## Mauthos (Oct 3, 2012)

I must say that I tend to disagree with this article, which I have actually seen before and several others of similar vein targeting other martial arts.

I think it really depends on the context of the martial art and what the student wants out of their studies.

Sure I agree that Kenpo has not fared that well in the UFC for example, although I do believe Chuck Liddell practices some form of Kenpo.  But primarily I do not view Kenpo as a fighting art, it is more for self defense.

Again, yes, some may argue that Kenpo is a little over the top for self defense and people always comment on the eye gouges which may be effective when attacked on the street, but not that useful when fighting a opponent in a cage or a ring.

Therefore, in my opinion it cannot be stated that a martial art is not useful simply because it has not be executed that well in the octagon.  Whereas, on the street in a self defense situation it can be very effective, therefore, why should any martial artist that isn't in the sport of competing 'get in the ring' to prove their art is effective? 

Aikido for example would never (probably) be represented in competition such as the UFC, but a lot of people train it, enjoy it and have found that it works when put in a self defense position.

One could argue that BJJ, although incredibly effective in the ring, would not necessarily be the best thing to use for self defense as if your attacker has his friends/accomplices with him then 'rolling' with the attacker could earn you a swift kick to the head from his buddies.

Anyway, that is just my opinion and I would love to hear what other people think.

Regards.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 4, 2012)

Although I train BJJ & Muay Thai, I don't think you can consider MMA competition success as the sole arbiter of what works in the martial arts for self-defense purposes. There are lessons for all martial artists to be learned from MMA, yes, but the MMA arena is only a small subset of how violence can work in the real world.

In MMA competition, you will be engaging in an agreed-upon contest with a highly conditioned and skilled fighter, in a known environment under known rules.

In a self-defense situation, you may or may not have to engage in violence, your opponent(s) will probably not be nearly as skilled or conditioned as a MMA fighter, the environment may vary considerably from what you've trained for, and the rules are unknown beforehand.*

*(You'll notice that I don't say "there are no rules." There most certainly are rules - they just aren't written down and they change drastically from situation to situation.)

That said, I have seen plenty of demonstrations by Kenpo practitioners that I consider to be highly unrealistic and indicative of a lack of combative understanding. One of the common problems is having the "assailant" feed a single punch, then stand there like a punching bag (often with punching arm still outstretched) while the defender executes a 17-move combination to finish him off. It is possible to stun someone so completely with your first shot that they are defenseless against a finishing flurry, but I wouldn't rely on it. Otherwise, unless you are a superhero with the ability to move 17 times faster than your opponent, you have to consider that he gets a move for each move that you make.

Not being a Kenpo student, I have no idea what percentage of practitioners train in an effective & realistic manner versus those who do not. However I wouldn't dismiss the whole art just because few sucessful MMA practitioners have had Kenpo as a primary art.


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## Dwc (May 17, 2022)

While I don't disagree with any traditional art can be ineffective I do not believe MMA is a standard of street defense. Also no matter what you train in there is always someone better. While I also agree no one is going to stand there and let you hit them 100 times I also do not believe ground fighting is 100% either. If you are a well trained BJJ person if you get on the ground with someone and his buddies decide to run up and kick you in the face while the other give you the "gangster stomp" you that is that! Also if you are in law enforcement the ground with a firearm is the last thing you want to do. Just my opinion


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## drop bear (May 17, 2022)

Cops always take people to the ground. That's how they arrest people.


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## Dwc (May 17, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Cops always take people to the ground. That's how they arrest people.


I was a police officer last place I ever tried to go unless the person was face down


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## drop bear (May 17, 2022)

Dwc said:


> I was a police officer last place I ever tried to go unless the person was face down



Well you are about the only police officer who tries to fight people standing.


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## Dwc (May 17, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Well you are about the only police officer who tries to fight people standing.





drop bear said:


> Well you are about the only police officer who tries to fight people standing.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 17, 2022)

@Dwc It looks like you accidentally quoted drop bear twice rather than typing a reply, just fyi.


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## drop bear (May 18, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Well you are about the only police officer who tries to fight people standing.



I mean this sort of fight with police would be what I would consider common.






Rather than trying to keep that standing and restrain the guy from there.


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## punisher73 (May 18, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Cops always take people to the ground. That's how they arrest people.



As an LEO, it depends on the situation.  We don't ALWAYS take people to the ground.  It's NOT how we arrest people. 

If I have a compliant person, I am not always going to prone them out on the ground first to handcuff them (I will give them verbal commands to myself at an advantage).  Depending on the circumstances and crime, I may.  In fact, the vast majority of people I have to arrest are handcuffed while standing up and are compliant with my commands.

If I am arresting someone and they resist, I won't always take them to the ground.  I WILL use the environment as best as I can to my advantage.  That means, I have used my patrol car to control their movement. I have used the wall to control their movement.  Just as I have used the ground to control their movement.


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## drop bear (May 18, 2022)

punisher73 said:


> As an LEO, it depends on the situation.  We don't ALWAYS take people to the ground.  It's NOT how we arrest people.
> 
> If I have a compliant person, I am not always going to prone them out on the ground first to handcuff them (I will give them verbal commands to myself at an advantage).  Depending on the circumstances and crime, I may.  In fact, the vast majority of people I have to arrest are handcuffed while standing up and are compliant with my commands.
> 
> If I am arresting someone and they resist, I won't always take them to the ground.  I WILL use the environment as best as I can to my advantage.  That means, I have used my patrol car to control their movement. I have used the wall to control their movement.  Just as I have used the ground to control their movement.



Obviously.


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## punisher73 (May 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Obviously.


You write "obviously", but your other comments suggest that its not so obvious.

"Cops always take people to the ground. That's how they arrest people."
"Well you are about the only police officer who tries to fight people standing."


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## drop bear (May 19, 2022)

punisher73 said:


> You write "obviously", but your other comments suggest that its not so obvious.
> 
> "Cops always take people to the ground. That's how they arrest people."
> "Well you are about the only police officer who tries to fight people standing."



Yeah. You don't fight compliant people on the ground and sometimes you smush guys up against a wall.

So there are situations when a cop won't put people on the ground. Which is obvious because it would make things like writing tickets or taking statements super awkward.

Not at all what I was discussing though. Which was this idea that the last place a cop goes in a fight is to the ground. When the obviously go there nearly all the time.

And possibly why police are turning to BJJ ground based systems and getting massive results from it.



			https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2022-03-29/police-turn-to-jiujitsu-to-curb-dangerous-force-boost-mental-and-physical-health


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