# Xu YuSheng Yang style Taijiquan



## Jin Gang

http://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2012/08/27/the-taiji-manual-of-xu-yusheng/

Does anyone practice Yang style from Xu YuSheng's lineage?  I was intrigued by the version of the form presented here.  Does anyone's Yang style form perform the double kick after plant the fist and turn and chop/swinging fist, like listed here in Xu YuSheng's (and like Chen yi lu?)  I have only practiced Yang Cheng Fu lineage, and all the Yang I've seen from anywhere does not have the double kick, it has deflect parry and punch after the swinging/chopping fist.


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## Xue Sheng

It has been a long day and for some reason I cannot visualize this and I can't go tgive it a try because my knees will not allow it I shall think about it and possibly in the meantime someone else will come along whose brain is working. But I can say there are 3 kicks pretty close together in the Yang style as it comes from Tung Ying Chieh

In the meantime I got this

From What I am reading Xu Yushing's main teacher was Yang Jianhou and if that is true that is rare and not the same Yang you would learn from the Yang family today. What is taught today is the form as it comes from Yang Chengfu who was Yang Jinahou's youngest son. As soon as Yang Shouhou was old enough and skilled enough to teach Jianhou pretty much stopped teaching and sent everyone to Shouhou and then when Yang Chengfu was old enough anad skiled enough to teach he stated sending all to Yang Chengfu. Yang Shouhou was alleged to be very tough on his students so there are not many of those around either. 

Also if it is from Yang Jianhou it would be closer to what was done by Yang Luchan scein Yang Jianhou was his son. However it is suspected that Yang Jianhou changed his father&#8217;s form so it would not be the same.

Yang Luchan learned from Chen Changxing

Something else to consider Xu Yusheng was allegedly born into a martial arts family and started training Martial Arts at the age of 6 and he also studied other styles prior to training Yang style taijiquan so in the end it is likely all of that influenced his Yang style

This is what I found for Yang family Xu style


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## Jin Gang

Yeah, I saw that video, too.  It starts up right after the section where the double kick would be, grr!  lol  I have seen videos of others claiming Yang JianHou lineage, but I haven't seen the double kick anywhere (except in in Chen Laojia).   I know the three kicks section, right after the first high pat on horse (or probably more accurately translated as mounted scout).  Then there's the kick, turn the body around 360 and kick after striking the temples.  But this double kick is listed in the form exactly where it would be in the equivalent section in Chen laojia yi lu, after planting the fist, turn and chopping with the fist.  


The section I'm talking about starts around 5:55 on this video of Chen Laojia Yi Lu: cloud hands, high pat on horse, separate right leg, separate left leg, turn and thrust left leg, brush knee x2, plant the fist, turn and swing the fist, *double kick*, deflect parry and punch.  





For reference, here is a Yang 108 video that starts at the same place, right after the first cloud hands section, single whip, high pat on horse, separate the legs, turn and kick, brush past knee, plant fist (except he does a low punch instead of the planting fist there), turn and swinging fist, then deflect parry and punch





In Xu Yusheng's published form, he doesn't do a jump like in Chen style, but two kicks in succession, however in the application he describes hopping to the other foot after the first kick.

DOUBLE KICK means your feet, left then right, lift and kick in succession.
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Two movements:
1. Roll back with your hand and kick forward.​
2. Step down and kick forward.
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Explanation for the drawing:
1. From TURN AROUND, FLINGING BODY PUNCH, your left hand, the elbow bending, withdraws with the palm up to be near your left ribs, while your right hand extends forward (same as in a palm strike to the face) and your left leg kicks forward (similar to the snapping kick of Tantui).
2. Your left foot comes down while your hands roll back from the upper right to the lower left. Right when your left foot comes down, your right foot lifts and kicks forward, your arms extending forward, both palms slapping the back of your right foot.

Points for attention:
The path [of your hands] in the second movement should make an arc.
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Application:
The opponent uses his left fist to punch my chest, so I send my left hand forward to grab his wrist and strike his face with my right hand, capitalizing on the surprise by kicking him with my left leg. If he retreats or blocks my foot, I then hop to change feet and kick him once more, now with my right foot.




​


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## Xue Sheng

I would call it a jump kick but no I have not seen that in any other Yang Lineage long form, that does not mean it is not in any other it just means I have not seen it. However, as I previously said. Xu YuSheng trained other styles before he trained Yang style. I have seen this in other lineages that had prior training in other styles. The Yang long form of Kwan Sai Hung has turns in it that are closer to Bagua than traditional Yang. Tung Ying Chieh trained Hao style prior to training with Yang Chengfu and the Traditional Yang that I do is done with a slightly lower stance than what the Yang family does today. Also Tung Ying Chieh wrote a book as well and he breaks up the 10 essences into 12 so things can vary from teacher to teacher.

Heck Li Tianji trained with Yang Chengfu and he pretty much came up with 24 form. But then Li Tanji was more of a Xingyiquan guy that a Taijiquan guy.


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## sicko

I didn't know Yang style Tai Chi have kicks and punches (fajins in general) too before I saw this post. I was sure it was exclusively for Chen style. We do the double kick in Chen's first old form.


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## sicko

I did post too soon. I did see the videos now. Yang style does have punches and kicks, but id doesn't have Fajins. Sorry... I'm kind of new in TC in learning about it every day


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## Xue Sheng

sicko said:


> I did post too soon. I did see the videos now. Yang style does have punches and kicks, but id doesn't have Fajins. Sorry... I'm kind of new in TC in learning about it every day



Actually it does have fajin, it just is not as obvious as the fajin you see in Chen. And Chen, Zhaobao, Yang, Wu (Northern and Southern), Wu/Hao and Sun all have punches, kicks and fajin...they also all have qinna and Shuaijiao to varying degrees too.


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## oaktree

The double kick in Laojia doesn't always have to have a jump in it. In fact a modified version is taught with no jump.
 Also the little jump to the form after the kick is another may be another modification as I was shown another way to do it as well but I prefer the jump. Chen Xiaowang was asked about this jump kick as I believe he taught it once without the jump.
He was asked isn't this suppose to be a jump kick? He said you want to jump right? So he started doing Jump kicks  like alot of them.


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## sicko

That's true. One version of Xiaowang is without jump. It is ment for studying the frame. Usually it is with the jump, but as long as you follow the principles, it's ok if you step down aswell.


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## Blaze Dragon

never heard of xu yusheng yang style, is it vastly different from yang style? the only taiji forms I've been taught by my sifu that are called yang style do not have any jump kicks. The one we call Chen does have a double jump front kick type of technique. there is also a jump trap kick as well in our chen.


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## clfsean

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> never heard of xu yusheng yang style, is it vastly different from yang style? the only taiji forms I've been taught by my sifu that are called yang style do not have any jump kicks. The one we call Chen does have a double jump front kick type of technique. there is also a jump trap kick as well in our chen.



What you do for "Yang" is  PRC 24 & Chen Man Ching's 37 step. Neither of those are proper Yang family forms. They are built from it. What you do for Chen is a take on Chen's Xinjia Yilu.


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## Blaze Dragon

clfsean said:


> What you do for "Yang" is  PRC 24 & Chen Man Ching's 37 step. Neither of those are proper Yang family forms. They are built from it. What you do for Chen is a take on Chen's Xinjia Yilu.



To be more specific what I've learned so far from my school are the following

These are our "Yang style" forms I've learned.
--24 posture Peking Style simplified Tai-Chi form   (T'ai Chi Ar Se Se' Tse') 
--Tai-Chi Chien (Taijiquan jian) Yang 2 Edge Straight Sword Form      
--Yang 64 Movement Short Form Tai-Chi Chuan (Taijiquan)(37 Postures)
--Yang Style Tai Chi BroadswordYang Se Tai Chi Tao     38 postures (Taijiquan Sabre) "Tai Ji Dao" solo form

These are our "Chen Style" forms I've learned
--Tai-Chi Iron Fan Chen Style 36 Posture form "Tai Chi San Se Liu Se"         
--New Generation/Frame 83 Posture Chen Tai Chi 

I can not argue if they are "proper Yang family forms" or not. As my only exposure to Taiji is from my school, my only other exposure is what I find in books and online. However I am very happen with what I am learning so all is good 

In these forms, our Chen 83 has the kicks I mentioned, also our Yang Broadsword has a jump kick in it (I'm still learning very new to it)

I'm not certain if we are the only ones that do it the way my school does it or not. However because I've never learned yang forms with jump kicks or double kicks I was curious since the post mentioned is about Xu Yusheng yang.

I would like to start learning a bit more history on Taji and the different variations of how it's practiced


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## clfsean

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> To be more specific what I've learned so far from my school are the following
> 
> These are our "Yang style" forms I've learned.
> --24 posture &#8220;Peking Style&#8221; simplified Tai-Chi form   (T'ai Chi Ar Se Se' Tse')
> --Tai-Chi Chien (Taijiquan jian) Yang 2 Edge Straight Sword Form
> --Yang 64 Movement &#8220;Short Form&#8221; Tai-Chi Ch&#8217;uan (Taijiquan)(37 Postures)
> --Yang Style T&#8217;ai Chi BroadswordYang Se Tai Chi Tao     38 postures (Taijiquan Sabre) "Tai Ji Dao" solo form
> 
> These are our "Chen Style" forms I've learned
> --Tai-Chi &#8220;Iron Fan&#8221; Chen Style 36 Posture form "Tai Chi San Se Liu Se"
> --New Generation/Frame 83 Posture Chen T&#8217;ai Chi
> 
> I can not argue if they are "proper Yang family forms" or not. As my only exposure to Taiji is from my school, my only other exposure is what I find in books and online. However I am very happen with what I am learning so all is good
> 
> In these forms, our Chen 83 has the kicks I mentioned, also our Yang Broadsword has a jump kick in it (I'm still learning very new to it)
> 
> I'm not certain if we are the only ones that do it the way my school does it or not. However because I've never learned yang forms with jump kicks or double kicks I was curious since the post mentioned is about Xu Yusheng yang.
> 
> I would like to start learning a bit more history on Taji and the different variations of how it's practiced





*sigh*

Ok... your definitions... 

-- 24 posture &#8220;Peking Style&#8221; simplified Tai-Chi form   (T'ai Chi Ar Se Se' Tse') --> PRC 24 -- Not Yang but Yang inspired.
-- Yang 64 Movement &#8220;Short Form&#8221; Tai-Chi Ch&#8217;uan (Taijiquan)(37 Postures) --> Chen Man Ching's 37 -- Not Yang but Yang inspired. In his own words, CMC was too lazy to do the proper 108 form.
-- New Generation/Frame 83 Posture Chen T&#8217;ai Chi --> Chen Xinjia Yilu

Weapons... dime a dozen, but if they don't follow proper mechanics, it doesn't matter.


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## Xue Sheng

A good friend of mine teaches the Chen Manching stuff and I also saw a TT Liang do the form not to long before he passed away. Also I briefly did a version of it that came from William CC Chen and the biggest difference I felt, other than being shorter, was it seemed to emphasize a different part of the posture that traditional Yang did, that is in the William CC Chen version as for the one more directly from Chen Manching it just looked too relaxed but I have never trained it so take my opinion on that for what it is worth


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## Blaze Dragon

clfsean said:


> *sigh*
> 
> Ok... your definitions...
> 
> -- 24 posture &#8220;Peking Style&#8221; simplified Tai-Chi form   (T'ai Chi Ar Se Se' Tse') --> PRC 24 -- Not Yang but Yang inspired.
> -- Yang 64 Movement &#8220;Short Form&#8221; Tai-Chi Ch&#8217;uan (Taijiquan)(37 Postures) --> Chen Man Ching's 37 -- Not Yang but Yang inspired. In his own words, CMC was too lazy to do the proper 108 form.
> -- New Generation/Frame 83 Posture Chen T&#8217;ai Chi --> Chen Xinjia Yilu
> 
> Weapons... dime a dozen, but if they don't follow proper mechanics, it doesn't matter.



gotca, I was not familiar with the names you where using. Just wanted to make sure we where on the same page. Still interested on what Xu yusheng yang is.


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## oaktree

Wtf is the chen jump trap kick? Can you number it or pin yin or 
 Hanzi dear god no wade Giles.


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## Blaze Dragon

oaktree said:


> Wtf is the chen jump trap kick? Can you number it or pin yin or
> Hanzi dear god no wade Giles.



Hmmm don't know if I can off the top of my head. it's more of a skip trap kick. 




2:16

instead of a step we take the right foot and do a trap kick before putting the foot down.


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## Xue Sheng

I am looking for the characters but I think the pinyin is Ti Er Qi or Er Qi Jiao but I am getting that from a website I am not 100% sure of. I have the posture names of Laojia Yilu in English/Pinyin/Chinese characters someplace


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## Xue Sheng

Forget the above post I found what it is called in pinyin

From Chen Zhenglei it is "Xuan Feng Jiao" - Tornado Kick or Whirlwind Kick 

Still looking for the characters


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## oaktree

I watched the video at the 2:16 mark, That is in Laojia Yi Lu as well I was told it was a stomp and is a transition step. There a couple of stomps in Laojia Yi Lu and some people teach those little jump steps to one foot others do not and still others modify.
 At the 7:00-7:05. I guess Chen people like to stomp alot actually, Chen Xiaowang says he is not stomping he is punching the ground with his foot what ever that means.


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## oaktree

Xue Sheng said:


> Forget the above post I found what it is called in pinyin
> 
> From Chen Zhenglei it is "Xuan Feng Jiao" - Tornado Kick or Whirlwind Kick
> 
> Still looking for the characters


I think it is not that one well I don't know maybe Chen Xiaowang differs. If you watch the mark in my video the kick that makes him turn around was the Xuan Feng Jiao then comes You Deng Yi Gen then comes that little Fa Jin movement with the hands then the stomp. I think the Fa jin movement with the hand and the stomp do not have an offical "step" name just part of a transition. Chen has alot of transition steps.


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## Blaze Dragon

oaktree said:


> I watched the video at the 2:16 mark, That is in Laojia Yi Lu as well I was told it was a stomp and is a transition step. There a couple of stomps in Laojia Yi Lu and some people teach those little jump steps to one foot others do not and still others modify.
> At the 7:00-7:05. I guess Chen people like to stomp alot actually, Chen Xiaowang says he is not stomping he is punching the ground with his foot what ever that means.



We did our 83 again in class thinking about it more it's less a "jump" then trap, as it is a trap then jump. it's just that our step is an attack low on the leg.

As to the punching the ground I think I can understand that view point. From how I'm being taught everything is moving as one. so when you do the movement I hear called "pound the mortar" your fist, body, foot all are hitting together and it's much more powerful then just stomping your foot down. I have notice we shake the floor pretty good when we do this. 

That's at least my interpretation.


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## Jin Gang

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> gotca, I was not familiar with the names you where using. Just wanted to make sure we where on the same page. Still interested on what Xu yusheng yang is.



Read the document linked on the first post, it is a translation of a book on taijiquan by Xu Yusheng which lists the postures of the form with pictures, in addition to history, philosophy and principles.  Xu Yusheng was a student of Yang Jianhou, who was one of Yang Lutang's sons.  So his version of the form may represent an older version of Yang style than is commonly seen (or it may represent a version altered by other teachings, as Xue Sheng has been saying).  It would make sense if the oldest form of the Yang style had the jumping/double kick, since Chen style is it's progenitor.  Most Yang style we see today is descended from Yang Chengfu (including Cheng Manching's form), Yang Jianhou's son, and it is known that the form he taught was different from that of his father and his grandfather.  

  I also spent four years in CSC, I was introduced to taijiquan there, as well.  If I were you, I would get some books and watch some videos on Yang style taijiquan, (and Chen style, too, for that matter).  Get "Master Cheng's New Method of Taichi Ch'uan Self Cultivation", which covers the 37 posture form that they tried to teach us.  Also get "Yang Chengfu: The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan", which is about the traditional Yang family form that the 37 posture form was based on, and is a great reference.  You'll also see where many of the sequences from the 24 posture simplified form came from.  I would start ammending what you've been learning with advice from the masters in these books, and eventually find a taijiquan teacher who can correct the bad habits/errors you are learning now (unless your SD/CSC teacher is doing things differently than all the others I have seen, you are learning many things incorrectly about the taijiquan forms).  Same goes for baguazhang and xingyiquan.  It isn't impossible to make improvements if you can follow the advice of the masters, there now is a lot of information available in English, and on the internet, that can help greatly.


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## Jin Gang

Xue Sheng said:


> A good friend of mine teaches the Chen Manching stuff and I also saw a TT Liang do the form not to long before he passed away. Also I briefly did a version of it that came from William CC Chen and the biggest difference I felt, other than being shorter, was it seemed to emphasize a different part of the posture that traditional Yang did, that is in the William CC Chen version as for the one more directly from Chen Manching it just looked too relaxed but I have never trained it so take my opinion on that for what it is worth


I agree that Cheng Manching's style is a little too relaxed, at least for me most of the time.  Sometimes I do like to do it that way, but usually I prefer the more traditional yang style large frame.  When I don't have time for the long form, I will do the 37 postures but in more traditional yang method.


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## oaktree

I really don't know what you mean by a trap. I was told
It was a way to transfer to the other leg quicker rather then
Do the slower leg transfer of weight.  I suppose there
Really isn't any rule saying it can't be for something else.


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## Jin Gang

oaktree said:


> I really don't know what you mean by a trap. I was told
> It was a way to transfer to the other leg quicker rather then
> Do the slower leg transfer of weight.  I suppose there
> Really isn't any rule saying it can't be for something else.



A "trap kick" is what they call the kick Bruce Lee does at around 2:48 a couple times.  Sometimes it is emphasized more as a stomp than a kick the way Bruce does it.


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## oaktree

What blazed sounds like is a variation of a step. I don't know
Xin jia or 83 I only do laojia and I do not see any kicks that resemble
The ones Bruce lee does if so which step number or pin yin or hanzi for it?


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## clfsean

oaktree said:


> What blazed sounds like is a variation of a step. I don't know
> Xin jia or 83 I only do laojia and I do not see any kicks that resemble
> The ones Bruce lee does if so which step number or pin yin or hanzi for it?



I used to practice Joseph Chen Zhonghua's Practical Method Chen... which is just Xinjia modified by Hong Junsheng. In the Yilu, there's a low side kick in "Turn Left and Kick With Left Heel / Zuo Zhuan Shen Deng Jiao".

What Bruce Lee did was like a Jeet Toi or Intercepting Kick. Not sure of the WC name, but that's what I know it as.


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## mook jong man

Jin Gang said:


> A "trap kick" is what they call the kick Bruce Lee does at around 2:48 a couple times.  Sometimes it is emphasized more as a stomp than a kick the way Bruce does it.



What Bruce is doing , is your basic Wing Chun low heel kick.
But he is doing it from the rear leg , whereas if he used the YCKYM Wing Chun stance he could do it from either leg.
My Sifu told us once that a lot of the kicks Bruce used in the movies were just Wing Chun kicks jazzed up and done a bit higher.


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## Blaze Dragon

Jin Gang said:


> I agree that Cheng Manching's style is a little too relaxed, at least for me most of the time.  Sometimes I do like to do it that way, but usually I prefer the more traditional yang style large frame.  When I don't have time for the long form, I will do the 37 postures but in more traditional yang method.



I was having a conversation about CMC yesterday. I had asked about his versions of taiji and I was told that CMC was not a martial artist but a scholar. When he learned Taiji it was later in life and though he was really good, and understood it. He didn't have the physical training of a martial artist and that's why you see the difference in his applications. 

thought it was interesting and something worth considering.


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## Blaze Dragon

oaktree said:


> I really don't know what you mean by a trap. I was told
> It was a way to transfer to the other leg quicker rather then
> Do the slower leg transfer of weight.  I suppose there
> Really isn't any rule saying it can't be for something else.



ok so if your standing in a horse like stance. you just finishing the arm movement "swimming" your right foot lifts then shoots out infront of your left and kicks below someone's knee who is stand to your left side. after this kick out of your foot you hop/jump the left foot over for the "step".

that's what I mean, that's how I learned it at least.


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## Blaze Dragon

Jin Gang said:


> A "trap kick" is what they call the kick Bruce Lee does at around 2:48 a couple times.  Sometimes it is emphasized more as a stomp than a kick the way Bruce does it.



lol yep that's what I mean


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## Xue Sheng

Cheng was also a college poetry professor and had some training in traditional Chinese medicine (herbology). He started training Taiji in his late 20s but I doubt that is the reason for the difference is that he learned later in life or his lack of MA training prior to training Taijiquan.


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## Blaze Dragon

Xue Sheng said:


> Cheng was also a college poetry professor and had some training in traditional Chinese medicine (herbology). He started training Taiji in his late 20s but I doubt that is the reason for the difference is that he learned later in life or his lack of MA training prior to training Taijiquan.



What do you feel the difference? Interpretation? Or do you think he felt the techniques where more effective his way? Granted we are speculating, but I am curious on your thoughts. I was not aware he started training in his 20s I was under the impression it was like his 40s.


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## oaktree

Blazed your description has dumbfounded me and
Caused me to declare myself officially retarded.

Thank god for clfsean and giving me something I can understand
 It must be cause are states(Florida) are so close, got some family in loganville, GA


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## Xue Sheng

BlazeLeeDragon

I am on a different interface and cannot figure out how to quote so let me just answer your question as diplomatically as possible. 

Nope he was in his late 20s and I am not speculating my sifu meant him many many years ago in China. Beyond that I have no desire to get into CMC vs Traditional Yang battle silliness


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## Blaze Dragon

oaktree said:


> Blazed your description has dumbfounded me and
> Caused me to declare myself officially retarded.
> 
> Thank god for clfsean and giving me something I can understand
> It must be cause are states(Florida) are so close, got some family in loganville, GA



side note your spelling my nickname wrong  there is no d at the end, it's Blaze not Blazed 

sorry for the bad description, but I tried.


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## Blaze Dragon

Xue Sheng said:


> BlazeLeeDragon
> 
> I am on a different interface and cannot figure out how to quote so let me just answer your question as diplomatically as possible.
> 
> Nope he was in his late 20s and I am not speculating my sifu meant him many many years ago in China. Beyond that I have no desire to get into CMC vs Traditional Yang battle silliness



Fair enough, I appreciate the response. So let me amend my last statement from "we" are speculating to "I" am speculating. I've never met him or talked to him, and my exposure to Taiji has been from my school only. Except for some videos on youtube, books, online articles and some documentaries. Thus I'm talking to you guys to attempt to get an idea for why the difference and what things you can see that are tell tale signs of there lineage and style.


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## Xue Sheng

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> Fair enough, I appreciate the response. So let me amend my last statement from "we" are speculating to "I" am speculating. I've never met him or talked to him, and my exposure to Taiji has been from my school only. Except for some videos on youtube, books, online articles and some documentaries. Thus I'm talking to you guys to attempt to get an idea for why the difference and what things you can see that are tell tale signs of there lineage and style.



Blaze

Nothing I said about silliness was directed at you it was simply saying to post what I know would not help the situation, there would be much arguing and frankly I see much of this thread as being very productive and I do not want to change that. I will not speculate since that speculation would be based on what I have been told by one who was there and that "speculation" would cause nothing but trouble. 

In this case it is likely best to go with what CMC said in one of his books. But since I do not have that book in front of me at the moment I cannot type it out.

Xue


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## oaktree

Sorry Blaze I must be the one who is blazed hahaha.


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## blindsage

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> Fair enough, I appreciate the response. So let me amend my last statement from "we" are speculating to "I" am speculating. I've never met him or talked to him, and my exposure to Taiji has been from my school only. Except for some videos on youtube, books, online articles and some documentaries. Thus I'm talking to you guys to attempt to get an idea for why the difference and what things you can see that are tell tale signs of there lineage and style.



I'm not a fan of the CMC form.  As for his skill, my sigung was a push hands partner of CMC and a fighter, and vouched for his skill.  Good enough for me.


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## Blaze Dragon

Xue Sheng said:


> Blaze
> 
> Nothing I said about silliness was directed at you it was simply saying to post what I know would not help the situation, there would be much arguing and frankly I see much of this thread as being very productive and I do not want to change that. I will not speculate since that speculation would be based on what I have been told by one who was there and that "speculation" would cause nothing but trouble.
> 
> In this case it is likely best to go with what CMC said in one of his books. But since I do not have that book in front of me at the moment I cannot type it out.
> 
> Xue



It's cool, I thank you. I also enjoy when conversations become more productive and less argumentative


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## Blaze Dragon

oaktree said:


> Sorry Blaze I must be the one who is blazed hahaha.



lol it's all good, I just thought I'd point that out


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