# What type of move is this?



## punisher73 (Mar 7, 2008)

There was another thread with this video on it showing a referee assualting someone in a match. I didn't want to hijack the thread, so I was wondering, WHAT did the referee do to the kid that put him down. It looks like he grabs with one hand and did something with the other to the neck.

Here is the video clip.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg09bGacp0A


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## morph4me (Mar 7, 2008)

It appears to be similar to an aikido move, he grabbed his shoulders, dropped his weight and brought his hsoulders backwards, dropping him.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 7, 2008)

morph4me said:


> It appears to be similar to an aikido move, he grabbed his shoulders, dropped his weight and brought his hsoulders backwards, dropping him.


I'll bet that guy will be more carefull about losing his temper during future matches.
Sean


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## DavidCC (Mar 7, 2008)

What I see is that the kid goes down hard on his right (forward) shoulder with his hands at his side.  His right leg (the one away from the ref) collapses.  The ref has his hands at the kid's neck.

The kid's hands are at this side, not trying to protect himself as he falls, and in fact he hits his head as he falls.  Therefore I beleive he is at best semi-concious at this point.  The collapse of the far leg tells me that the ref probably did not attack the near (left) leg because if he had the right leg would have strengthened for support and it did the opposite, it gave out, limp.

So, I believe that the ref struck the kid on the side of the head, jaw or neck causing a flash knockout.  You can see a the kid's head give a short jerk just before he falls.  Watch how the kid is dazed as he tries to sit up, not trying to defend himself at all.  I believe what you see here is pressure point striking in action.


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## twendkata71 (Mar 7, 2008)

Is no one disturbed by the fact that this seemingly in control adult referee,  attacked this kid and stomped his head? What kind of mature adult should do this? He wasn't just trying to control the kid he was exacting revenge for probably his own student being attacked with a simple punch. A bit of overkill don't you think?


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## Martin h (Mar 7, 2008)

twendkata71 said:


> Is no one disturbed by the fact that this seemingly in control adult referee,  attacked this kid and stomped his head? What kind of mature adult should do this? He wasn't just trying to control the kid he was exacting revenge for probably his own student being attacked with a simple punch. A bit of overkill don't you think?



The guy should lose his license to referee. At the very least!
I would not be surprised if he was arrested for assault.
You just don't behave that way as a referee.


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## morph4me (Mar 7, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> What I see is that the kid goes down hard on his right (forward) shoulder with his hands at his side. His right leg (the one away from the ref) collapses. The ref has his hands at the kid's neck.
> 
> The kid's hands are at this side, not trying to protect himself as he falls, and in fact he hits his head as he falls. Therefore I beleive he is at best semi-concious at this point. The collapse of the far leg tells me that the ref probably did not attack the near (left) leg because if he had the right leg would have strengthened for support and it did the opposite, it gave out, limp.
> 
> So, I believe that the ref struck the kid on the side of the head, jaw or neck causing a flash knockout. You can see a the kid's head give a short jerk just before he falls. Watch how the kid is dazed as he tries to sit up, not trying to defend himself at all. I believe what you see here is pressure point striking in action.


 
You may be right, it's hard to tell.


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## cstanley (Mar 8, 2008)

The ref is Isao Nakumura, generally a nice guy and a fine senior karateka. Looks like he maybe hit the carotid sinus or one of the large nerves in the neck. Nakumura had to have been badly provoked. Must have been the charge after the guy in white turned his back, or maybe the guy in black said something ugly we couldn't hear. Nice fumikomi, however. Good lesson in courtesy.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 8, 2008)

Okay the referee and for lack of a better word jerk grabbed the competitor by the shoulder/neck region and headbutted him on the side of the head or temple.  That caused the knockout and the kid went down.  Nothing fancy just a good old headbutt.

Definately a shameful and cowardly act and I hope he was prosecuted.


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## shoshinkan (Mar 8, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Okay the referee and for lack of a better word jerk grabbed the competitor by the shoulder/neck region and headbutted him on the side of the head or temple. That caused the knockout and the kid went down. Nothing fancy just a good old headbutt.
> 
> Definately a shameful and cowardly act and I hope he was prosecuted.


 

agreed, a simple grab and jerkbutt to the side of the head. The guy didn't see it coming hence the effect was devestating.

the Sensei (I use that term carefully here) should be banned from the art and locked up as that kind of violence was not justified in any way.


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## cstanley (Mar 8, 2008)

I would still like to know what provoked it. While difficult to condone, it may well be understandable. It was in Mexico. The guy in black could have said something like "chingate (sp) cabron." Nakamura speaks Spanish, Japanese, and some English.


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## kidswarrior (Mar 8, 2008)

cstanley said:


> I would still like to know what provoked it. While difficult to condone, it may well be understandable. It was in Mexico. The guy in black could have said something like "chingate (sp) cabron." Nakamura speaks Spanish, Japanese, and some English.


Well, if someone said that to me I'd definitely be pretty hot. But at this point are we still conjecturing? If so, then it could have been prompted by a whole range of things, with this being one of many, many, no?


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## Doc_Jude (Mar 8, 2008)

NO VERBAL INSULT could possibly justify such action, ESPECIALLY soccer-kicking & stomping the kid AFTER HE'S DOWN & OUT. Ridiculous. That's no master.

After watching it again, it appears to be a grab, then a right hand strike & headbutt combo. Does anyone else see that?


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 8, 2008)

I have seen refs jumped. attacked, etc. by competitors nefor. I have seen a ref punch a competitor in the mouth for something the man said. But this is beyound me


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## Brandon Fisher (Mar 8, 2008)

Way over the top if you ask me.


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## Ray B (Mar 8, 2008)

I have seen the whole match.
The guy in blue was punching full contact to the head.
He then kicked to the groin.
Lastly he attacks from behind.
He was repeatedly warned.
The kid in white (I was told) was the ref's son.
From what I understand, this is an old video. About 10-15 years.


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## Scarey (Mar 9, 2008)

Where did this take place? It's true that in the states we don't generally tolerate this kind of behavior, but if this is in another country, who knows what their acceptable referee behaviors are. I'm not trying to justify what this guy did, but I'll bet that fellow thinks twice before breaking the rules of that organization again.


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## cstanley (Mar 9, 2008)

Scarey said:


> Where did this take place? It's true that in the states we don't generally tolerate this kind of behavior, but if this is in another country, who knows what their acceptable referee behaviors are. I'm not trying to justify what this guy did, but I'll bet that fellow thinks twice before breaking the rules of that organization again.


 
Mexico


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## twendkata71 (Mar 9, 2008)

Why was he refereeing his own son. Wouldn't that create some bias anyway. I do see why he would overreact if it was his son. 






Ray B said:


> I have seen the whole match.
> The guy in blue was punching full contact to the head.
> He then kicked to the groin.
> Lastly he attacks from behind.
> ...


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## Myrmidon (Mar 9, 2008)

Martin h said:


> The guy should lose his license to referee. At the very least!
> I would not be surprised if he was arrested for assault.
> You just don't behave that way as a referee.



*Totally agree! *


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## jks9199 (Mar 9, 2008)

Scarey said:


> Where did this take place? It's true that in the states we don't generally tolerate this kind of behavior, but if this is in another country, who knows what their acceptable referee behaviors are. I'm not trying to justify what this guy did, but I'll bet that fellow thinks twice before breaking the rules of that organization again.


I don't care where it was.  I could possibly accept the initial take down IF the fighter was out of control, but not the follow-up kicks to a downed opponent!  

I've reffed a few bouts; there have been a few times where I did have to use some force to separate fighters.  But I only used enough to get them apart and protect myself -- I didn't take them down and stomp them!  The way to stop a fighter who's not playing by the agreed rules is to disqualify them and stop the bout -- not ignore it till they do something that makes you have to hit them!


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## cstanley (Mar 9, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I don't care where it was. I could possibly accept the initial take down IF the fighter was out of control, but not the follow-up kicks to a downed opponent!
> 
> I've reffed a few bouts; there have been a few times where I did have to use some force to separate fighters. But I only used enough to get them apart and protect myself -- I didn't take them down and stomp them! The way to stop a fighter who's not playing by the agreed rules is to disqualify them and stop the bout -- not ignore it till they do something that makes you have to hit them!


 
Good point. If the ref let it get to the point where he was that po'd, he should have moved to disqualify much earlier.


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## Scarey (Mar 9, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I don't care where it was.  I could possibly accept the initial take down IF the fighter was out of control, but not the follow-up kicks to a downed opponent!
> 
> I've reffed a few bouts; there have been a few times where I did have to use some force to separate fighters.  But I only used enough to get them apart and protect myself -- I didn't take them down and stomp them!  The way to stop a fighter who's not playing by the agreed rules is to disqualify them and stop the bout -- not ignore it till they do something that makes you have to hit them!





cstanley said:


> Good point. If the ref let it get to the point where he was that po'd, he should have moved to disqualify much earlier.




What I mean is, what we consider barbaric unsportsmanlike conduct, is standard operating procedure in other countries, such as Mexico. Just look at soccer. Physical altercation is the status quo. I don't necessarily agree with that, but it is what it is. Here the guy would  have been held legally accountable, there, who knows?


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## jks9199 (Mar 9, 2008)

Scarey said:


> What I mean is, what we consider barbaric unsportsmanlike conduct, is standard operating procedure in other countries, such as Mexico. Just look at soccer. Physical altercation is the status quo. I don't necessarily agree with that, but it is what it is. Here the guy would  have been held legally accountable, there, who knows?


You're talking in a circle...

The job of the referee is to control the match and ensure the safety of the fighters.  That means enforcing the rules, and stopping misconduct before it crosses the line.  That may sometimes require that you forcefully separate fighters, or -- VERY rarely -- to actually strike one competitor to protect the other.  

I'll even grant that the competitor in this case may have done something to justify the intitial headbutt/takedown.  But there's no justification for the referee to follow that up with the kick and stomp.  No matter where you are -- that is an unwarranted assault.


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## DavidCC (Mar 10, 2008)

There's another thread for what an *** this guy was.  This thread was about the analysis of what he did...


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## ArmorOfGod (Mar 11, 2008)

I think most agreed what he did was criminal and the police should have been brought in to press charges for assaulting a child.
If it were my kid competing and a ref stepped up behind him, knocked him out, then kicked him after falling, the police would have been there fast.  I would have pressed charges as for as I could go.

AoG


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## ArmorOfGod (Mar 11, 2008)

Martin h said:


> The guy should lose his license to referee. At the very least!


 
Lose his license...big deal. I have been to countless competitions and no one is "licensed" to referee. They just take volunteers.
Knocking out a 17 year old when he isn't looking, then kicking him after knocking him out is criminal behavior warrenting being arrested.

AoG


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 11, 2008)

Here we go: Me, with the unpopular perspective. I started karate in Hawaii as a kid in 71. We didn't dare lose our tempers or show disrespect to decorum, or we could count on getting the crap knocked out of us by our seniors. It was expected; it was their job. If we got out of hand, and cold-c0cked for it, we took it as the cuffing it was, and made a note not to do that again...unless we wanted another beating.

Now, we live in a sue-happy world of uber-political correctness, where the old ways immediately brand someone as a brute, a fiend, an out of control maniac requiring justice and incarceration, etc. I view this as a lesson in respect for the process. I doubt this kid that got thumped went home and thought about why he got spanked, but he certainly should have. It was this type of corporal, martial punishment that kept karateka on the straight and narrow for so long, kept the punks out; and it's the absence of it that leads to so much of the shenanigans we see in open tournaments now.

Time was, if the ref didn't pop you for being a putz, you could count on getting a black eye, fat lips, bloody nose and cracked ribs during the next class session after the tournament, from your own guys...Sempai and Sensei driving you into a corner and continuing to kick the crap out of you even after you've indicated surrender. Often followed by a quietly menacing admonition, "Never embarrass us like that again."

Now, coaches and instructors can be heard hollering poor sportsmanship from the bleachers; kids are instructed to take cheap shots to take the wind out of an opponents sails; and so on. The idea of an honorable match where two mutually respectful combatants bow in, fight clean, and congratulate each other on the good stuff are too far gone for me to feel sorry for this kid getting clocked by a senior. Karate begins and ends with courtesy and respect. If the seniors don't enforce it, who will?

Dave


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## Myrmidon (Mar 11, 2008)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Now, we live in a sue-happy world of uber-political correctness, where the old ways immediately brand someone as a brute,



*Tournament "fighting" has never been part of the "old ways"...*



> a fiend, an out of control maniac requiring justice and incarceration, etc. I view this as a lesson in respect for the process.


*I beg to differ... The referee acted as a bully... if something was wrong with the fight, he should have stopped it before things got out of hand...*



> I doubt this kid that got thumped went home and thought about why he got spanked, but he certainly should have.


*This kid was not "spanked", he was viciously and abusively assaulted by an out-of-control adult...*



> Time was, if the ref didn't pop you for being a putz, you could count on getting a black eye, fat lips, bloody nose and cracked ribs during the next class session after the tournament, from your own guys...Sempai and Sensei driving you into a corner and continuing to kick the crap out of you even after you've indicated surrender. Often followed by a quietly menacing admonition, "Never embarrass us like that again."


*Reminds me of "Cobra Kai"...*



> Now, coaches and instructors can be heard hollering poor sportsmanship from the bleachers; kids are instructed to take cheap shots to take the wind out of an opponents sails; and so on. The idea of an honorable match where two mutually respectful combatants bow in, fight clean, and congratulate each other on the good stuff are too far gone for me to feel sorry for this kid getting clocked by a senior. Karate begins and ends with courtesy and respect. If the seniors don't enforce it, who will?


*As I told you... tournament "fighting" has never been part of the "old ways"...*


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 12, 2008)

Myrmidon said:


> *Tournament "fighting" has never been part of the "old ways"...*
> 
> *I beg to differ... The referee acted as a bully... if something was wrong with the fight, he should have stopped it before things got out of hand...*
> 
> ...


 
Boy...you told me. My question would have to be, in the spirit of the deconstructionists, "Who is speaking?" To make this blanket assertion, you would have to know all of the proponents & participants of the old ways. Tournament fighting as it is today was not. Jiu-kumite, however, has been around since pre-WW2. I know personally -- and know of more -- folk who came up this way in the "old ways", with nothing "cobra-kai' about it; just how quality control was managed. Perhaps, you should take it up with them, before making sweeeping generalizations on the behalf of an entire tradition, as if there was one.

Dave


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## Myrmidon (Mar 12, 2008)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Boy...you told me. My question would have to be, in the spirit of the deconstructionists, "Who is speaking?"



*Who I am is not important...*



> To make this blanket assertion, you would have to know all of the proponents & participants of the old ways.



*Over 35 years of hard and continious training in "old style" okinawan karate, a few of them in Okinawa... and a few more years in judo and old style ju jutsu... That should give me a good idea of the real "old ways"*



> Tournament fighting as it is today was not.



*I agree...*



> Jiu-kumite, however, has been around since pre-WW2.



*I agree... and there was (and is) also something called "real fighting"... and it has nothing to do with "jiu kumite"...*



> I know personally -- and know of more -- folk who came up this way in the "old ways", with nothing "cobra-kai' about it; just how quality control was managed.



*What you call "old ways" is obviously different from what I call "old ways"...* 



> Perhaps, you should take it up with them, before making sweeeping generalizations on the behalf of an entire tradition, as if there was one.



*I am not making "sweeping generalizations" about what you call "an entire tradition", I'm just commenting specifically on the particular methods mentioned by you... About taking it up with them... no problem...*


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## cstanley (Mar 12, 2008)

Myrmidon said:


> *Who I am is not important...*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Myrmidon, sounds like you and I might agree on things, but it would help if you listed the ryu in which you train. "Hand & Sword" isn't much help. If you are so proud of "old style Okinawan karate" seems like you would want us to know which "style." Mine is Motobu ha Shito ryu (33 years)


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## Myrmidon (Mar 12, 2008)

*Goju Ryu... Toguchi lineage.*


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## cstanley (Mar 12, 2008)

Myrmidon said:


> *Goju Ryu... Toguchi lineage.*


 
Excellent! We should be on the same page.


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## Scarey (Mar 12, 2008)

These old ways you speak of sound alot like what the current grand masters I'm acquainted with have described. Tales of black belt tests filled with students in kibadachis for 3 hours because the testing board went for an extended lunch, or being beaten by the testers with their belts as an initiation. For all of you kyu ranks that have never handled a black belt, that would be no picnic due to the fact that they are about 3 times as dense as the ones you get (at least in my style, I can't say I actually know for everyone else). I'm quite thankful I didn't have to go through things like that. Of course about 10 minutes into my 1st dan test I suffered a rather severe ankle sprain due to my nerves throwing me a bit off. So I went over 2 more hours on it. I wasn't about to let something like that stop me. Back on subject, just because the more civilized nations have moved on to a kinder gentler form of teaching the arts, doesn't mean every one on earth has.


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## cstanley (Mar 12, 2008)

Scarey said:


> These old ways you speak of sound alot like what the current grand masters I'm acquainted with have described. Tales of black belt tests filled with students in kibadachis for 3 hours because the testing board went for an extended lunch, or being beaten by the testers with their belts as an initiation. For all of you kyu ranks that have never handled a black belt, that would be no picnic due to the fact that they are about 3 times as dense as the ones you get (at least in my style, I can't say I actually know for everyone else). I'm quite thankful I didn't have to go through things like that. Of course about 10 minutes into my 1st dan test I suffered a rather severe ankle sprain due to my nerves throwing me a bit off. So I went over 2 more hours on it. I wasn't about to let something like that stop me. Back on subject, just because the more civilized nations have moved on to a kinder gentler form of teaching the arts, doesn't mean every one on earth has.


 
"Grand Masters?" I don't know any sensei in traditional Okinawan or Japanese arts that would call themselves "grand master" or allow their students to. Maybe they are embellishing a bit to make them seem more like "grand masters."

Good traditional karate should be hard and uncomfortable at times. Tetsing should be demanding and challenging. But, it isn't the brutal nonsense you hear about after 5 or 6 beers: "Our sensei used to cut our heads off with his sword and dance around the dojo shouting halleluja! You can't tell students that today, though. They just won't believe you."


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## Scarey (Mar 12, 2008)

cstanley said:


> "Grand Masters?" I don't know any sensei in traditional Okinawan or Japanese arts that would call themselves "grand master" or allow their students to. Maybe they are embellishing a bit to make them seem more like "grand masters."
> 
> Good traditional karate should be hard and uncomfortable at times. Tetsing should be demanding and challenging. But, it isn't the brutal nonsense you hear about after 5 or 6 beers: "Our sensei used to cut our heads off with his sword and dance around the dojo shouting halleluja! You can't tell students that today, though. They just won't believe you."




I just use the term "grand master", as it is the translation I was given for Hanshi, I use it as a general term for anyone with the rank of 9th or 10th dan, because although unusual, some of them in the world may not be the head of an organization. Of course the ones I know are, but you never know. And maybe my teachers teachers were in to "brutal nonsense", you have no way of knowing personally. Also, are you always this rude to anyone who throws a little support your way?


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## cstanley (Mar 12, 2008)

Scarey said:


> I just use the term "grand master", as it is the translation I was given for Hanshi, I use it as a general term for anyone with the rank of 9th or 10th dan, because although unusual, some of them in the world may not be the head of an organization. Of course the ones I know are, but you never know. And maybe my teachers teachers were in to "brutal nonsense", you have no way of knowing personally. Also, are you always this rude to anyone who throws a little support your way?


 
I don't see what I said as being rude. It was an effort to correct a misunderstanding of the over-used term, "Grand Master," which is not a proper translation of the term Hanshi. A lot of people today would consider good hard traditional training to be brutal nonsense. They are wrong, of course. I was referring to some of the exaggerations you often hear.


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## Scarey (Mar 12, 2008)

cstanley said:


> I don't see what I said as being rude. It was an effort to correct a misunderstanding of the over-used term, "Grand Master," which is not a proper translation of the term Hanshi. A lot of people today would consider good hard traditional training to be brutal nonsense. They are wrong, of course. I was referring to some of the exaggerations you often hear.




Well it's always good to clear these kinds of things up, I guess I interpreted what i perceived to be a blunt statement of opinion in a factual manner as being rude. As for exaggeration, you and I both have no way of truly knowing what the truth on the matter is. I just don't see a reason for my superiors to make things like that up. On the subject of etymology, would you care to enlighten me on the literal Japanese to English translation of the term "Hanshi"? Finally, on your point about hard training, that was the meaning I was attempting to convey with my previous post.


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## cstanley (Mar 12, 2008)

Scarey said:


> Well it's always good to clear these kinds of things up, I guess I interpreted what i perceived to be a blunt statement of opinion in a factual manner as being rude. As for exaggeration, you and I both have no way of truly knowing what the truth on the matter is. I just don't see a reason for my superiors to make things like that up. On the subject of etymology, would you care to enlighten me on the literal Japanese to English translation of the term "Hanshi"? Finally, on your point about hard training, that was the meaning I was attempting to convey with my previous post.


 
Hanshi is sometimes used to refer to the founder or inheritor of a ryu (although my Japanese instructor said this is technically incorrect). It is most often a senior designation given to someone who has achieved hachi dan with the added distinction of having contributed a great deal to the ryu by way of teaching, good will, etc. It is not a designation based upon skill or that is intended to designate a particular skill level. It is more like an honorary doctorate from a university. It is also greatly over used.


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## Myrmidon (Mar 12, 2008)

cstanley said:


> Excellent! We should be on the same page.



*Yes indeed!*


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