# Looking for more information on DanZan Ryu JuJitsu



## Ceicei (Oct 15, 2005)

I wanted to take up Japanese JuJutsu, but couldn't find a good school nearby. I did find a different school not too far from me. I took the first class two weeks ago, and found it is a DanZan Ryu JuJitsu school.

 I have talked a few months ago with other martial artists who train with Small Circle JuJutsu (SCJJ) and they say they train also with Danzan Ryu. However, I don't think SCJJ and DZRJ are the same. Maybe the ones I talked with combine the two in their training? 

 The DZR class I took remind me more of Judo (breakfalls, rolls, throws, and sweeps), but also have strikes/blocks too. I haven't seen any kicks or chokes yet. I've only had four hours so far, so it is still too early to tell. I am not sure how close DZR is to Judo (as I've trained for a few months with Judo last year).

 My point with this thread is to locate those who train in Danzan Ryu JuJitsu so I could ask questions along the way. My instructor is really cool, and he appears to know his stuff well. At least he is able to explain things clearly.

  - Ceicei


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## Dragon Fist (Oct 15, 2005)

The founder of Danzan Ryu Ju-Jitsu was Prof. Henry Seishiro Okazaki. His system was developed using elements of Judo, Jujitsu, Okinawan Karate, Chinese Kung-Fu, Hawaiian Lua, Filipino knife fighting, boxing and wrestling.



I have had a chance to do some training with his youngest daughter Prof. Imi Okazaki-Mullins. She is probably in her 70's now but she can still throw a big man to the floor.


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## Kempojujutsu (Oct 15, 2005)

Prof. Henry Seishiro Okazaki was Wally Jay's instructor. Here is a link for you to check out DZRJ.
DZRJ Link


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## Makalakumu (Oct 15, 2005)

I currently cross train in DZR.  I have about three years in the system.  The practicioners I have met are highly skilled with joint locks, throws, and chokes.  I would, however, supplement striking skills into this art.  Throw out any questions you have and I'll do my best.


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## Ceicei (Oct 15, 2005)

Kempojujutsu said:
			
		

> Prof. Henry Seishiro Okazaki was Wally Jay's instructor. Here is a link for you to check out DZRJ.
> DZRJ Link


 Wonderful link!!!  Thank you so much!  It is excellent in giving me background information.

 - Ceicei


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## Ceicei (Oct 15, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I currently cross train in DZR. I have about three years in the system. The practicioners I have met are highly skilled with joint locks, throws, and chokes. I would, however, supplement striking skills into this art. Throw out any questions you have and I'll do my best.


 Alright....  Thank you.

 Most of what I've learned makes sense to me so far.  I do sometimes have to remind myself not to think of comparing certain moves of DZR with Kenpo during training.  I remind myself to reserve the comparison for afterwards, when I go home from training and can settle down to think how both systems can work together.  I find it easier to just go and do while training--basically bring a "I am ready to learn" mentality with me.

 However, there is one attack in DZR I learned that puzzles me, and the defense against it.

 The attack is a tight grip by the attacker against the fingertips of the defender.

 The defense is bring the hand up, sort of folding it in, then a quick whipping move frees the hand and strikes the attacker's hand away.  If the attacker's head is within the "angle of entry" (sorry for using the kenpo terms), the defender's hand can continue on with a heel palm strike to the attacker's chin.

 I hope this makes sense to you what I am trying to describe.  What is puzzling about me is the method of attacking doesn't seem very common.  I can imagine, however, this could be an intimidation move by a male against a female.  The method of defense does require that the hand be brought up quickly to do the whipping motion.  If the attacker provides strong resistance, the defense does not seem to be quite practical.

 Am I missing something here, perhaps a concept or a principle, that would make this workable?  I have been told by my instructor that being completely relaxed is probably the most important key.

 Thank you.

 - Ceicei


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## JAMJTX (Oct 16, 2005)

Danzan Ryu is a very strong art that is based largely on Judo.

Okazaki held a 3rd Dan in Judo, which back in those days was quite a tremendous accomplishment.  He also trained in other arts as already mentioned. Also, Wally Jay was Okazaki's student for a long time.  Also Prof. Jay's organization is still allied with the mainline DZR organizations.  I know a number of people who train in both.

You will gradually be exposed to more of the system as you advance.  But over time you will find DZR to be a very well rounded self defense art.  You likely will learn basic kicking at least, as you will learn defenses against kicks.  Just keep plugging away.

BTW, who are you training with?  What organization? 
Try this link for more DZR info: http://www.danzan.com/


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## Makalakumu (Oct 16, 2005)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> However, there is one attack in DZR I learned that puzzles me, and the defense against it.
> 
> The attack is a tight grip by the attacker against the fingertips of the defender.
> 
> ...


This technique is part of the Yawara list in DZR.  We call it Yubi Tori Hazushi.  There are many levels to this technique.  The attack has been described by my teachers as a technique that a samurai would use to break the fingers of their opponent over their wrist armor.  

The outer level of this kata is exactly as you describe.  The inner levels deal with principle.  When you start developing your variations for this technique, you'll be forced to think about this.  The foot work is very important.  The step back on the same side as the grab is the initial moment where power is taken away from the downward motion.  This is done by arcing that motion out and away form the attackers body.  By continuing the circle, the defender is continually reducing the attackers power until it is completely nuetralized.  This is a very important concept for escapes and it is very applicable in a grappling situations.  

Another thing you should notice is the way this technique feels like a wave.  When you step back and begin the arc, you can feel your power increasing as your opponents power decreases.  Your counter attack is the crashing of this wave.

I hope this helps a little.

upnorthkyosa


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## arnisador (Oct 16, 2005)

It's a common technique in jujutsu--especially in Small Circle JuJitsu, for example--so I'm not surprised they came up with a defense for it! One wants to have a defense for one's own techniques. Is it common? Probably not, in the streets. But if you start doing jujutsu to someone, they may counter by trying to grab your hands that are grabbing them, so who knows?


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## Makalakumu (Oct 16, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> It's a common technique in jujutsu--especially in Small Circle JuJitsu, for example--so I'm not surprised they came up with a defense for it! One wants to have a defense for one's own techniques. Is it common? Probably not, in the streets. But if you start doing jujutsu to someone, they may counter by trying to grab your hands that are grabbing them, so who knows?


DZR people call all of their techniques kata.  This, to me, implies bunkai.  It is good to remember that the outer level of this technique is the equivolent of a low block.  The wave/crash footwork and motion can make techniques like eekyo incredibly powerful.


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## Ceicei (Oct 16, 2005)

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> Danzan Ryu is a very strong art that is based largely on Judo.
> 
> Okazaki held a 3rd Dan in Judo, which back in those days was quite a tremendous accomplishment. He also trained in other arts as already mentioned.


Thank you for the history bit about Prof. Okasazki. That explains the strong Judo relationship to DZR. 



			
				JAMJTX said:
			
		

> You will gradually be exposed to more of the system as you advance. But over time you will find DZR to be a very well rounded self defense art. You likely will learn basic kicking at least, as you will learn defenses against kicks. Just keep plugging away.


I am enjoying DZR. It will be exciting to learn more.



			
				JAMJTX said:
			
		

> BTW, who are you training with?  What organization?
> Try this link for more DZR info: http://www.danzan.com/


 It appears that my lineage is through Mr. Dennis Estes under Prof. Raymond Law, who trained under Prof. Okazaki. At least my instructor's instructor studied under Mr. Estes.

   - Ceicei


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## Ceicei (Oct 16, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> This technique is part of the Yawara list in DZR. We call it Yubi Tori Hazushi. There are many levels to this technique. The attack has been described by my teachers as a technique that a samurai would use to break the fingers of their opponent over their wrist armor.


Interesting. Thank you for the origin to that attack. Is there a list explaining further what all those techniques are?


			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> The outer level of this kata is exactly as you describe. The inner levels deal with principle. When you start developing your variations for this technique, you'll be forced to think about this. The foot work is very important. The step back on the same side as the grab is the initial moment where power is taken away from the downward motion. This is done by arcing that motion out and away form the attackers body. By continuing the circle, the defender is continually reducing the attackers power until it is completely nuetralized. This is a very important concept for escapes and it is very applicable in a grappling situations.


 I think I am understanding what you are saying. You lost me, however, with the "outer level" and "inner levels". What do these mean?


			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Another thing you should notice is the way this technique feels like a wave. When you step back and begin the arc, you can feel your power increasing as your opponents power decreases. Your counter attack is the crashing of this wave.


 Ummm. Interesting. Are you saying that DZR is a very circular martial art? I'll have to try that and see how it works.


			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I hope this helps a little.
> 
> upnorthkyosa


  Thank you.  You have been very helpful with your explanation.

   - Ceicei


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## Ceicei (Oct 16, 2005)

During my last class, we were practicing various types of breakfalls. I expected to be pretty sore afterwards, and I was. The soreness eventually went away; however, I found that I pulled muscles in my left shoulder (deltoid) and my left leg (adductor).

 It made me wonder just exactly what did I do to cause that to happen to my left side. My instructor observed that I had been trying to look behind me and this is skewing my back breakfalls. I suspect it has more to do with side breakfalls, as falling on my left side didn't go too well. The right side, front breakfalls, and rolls (both forward and back) do not appear to give me much trouble.

 Would the injuries be because of looking over the back when doing back breakfalls, or just simply that I wasn't relaxed enough doing side breakfalls? One of my partners observed that if the pull is bad enough, I might be "out of commission" anywhere from a few weeks up to a few months.  I don't think my pulls are that severe, so I am pretty sure I will recover much sooner than that! I do not want to stop training when I just barely began DZR.

  Any tips on doing back/side breakfalls better?

  Thank you.

  - Ceicei


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## JAMJTX (Oct 16, 2005)

"It appears that my lineage is through Mr. Dennis Estes under Prof. Raymond Law, who trained under Prof. Okazaki. At least my instructor's instructor studied under Mr. Estes."

You are recieving excellent training.  I had several oppertunities to train with Dennis Estes when he came to clinics in PA and NJ.  http://www.jimmccoy.com/images/ajjf_sensei_2002.jpg 

I have nothing but great things to say about him and his students.  You can be assured that you are getting some of the finest Jujutsu instruction in the U.S.


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## Ceicei (Oct 16, 2005)

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> You are recieving excellent training. I had several oppertunities to train with Dennis Estes when he came to clinics in PA and NJ. http://www.jimmccoy.com/images/ajjf_sensei_2002.jpg
> 
> I have nothing but great things to say about him and his students. You can be assured that you are getting some of the finest Jujutsu instruction in the U.S.


 That's reassuring to know.  Who are the people in the picture?

 - Ceicei


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## JAMJTX (Oct 16, 2005)

It is not possible to diagnose your breakfall problems here, but both explainations seem plausible.

If you hit the ground and tense up to much this can cause an injury. Also, proper positioning is essential, not only of the head/neck  Your teacher is the best source fo rhelp here as he is the one watching you closely.


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## Ceicei (Oct 16, 2005)

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> It is not possible to diagnose your breakfall problems here, but both explainations seem plausible.
> 
> If you hit the ground and tense up to much this can cause an injury. Also, proper positioning is essential, not only of the head/neck Your teacher is the best source fo rhelp here as he is the one watching you closely.


 Not exactly asking for a diagnosis as I know you weren't there to see how I messed up.  I was just wondering whether there are tips to make breakfalls easier so I could consult with my instructor and try these tips out.  Sometimes different viewpoints may give a new perspective/solution to a problem.

 - Ceicei


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## Makalakumu (Oct 17, 2005)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Interesting. Thank you for the origin to that attack. Is there a list explaining further what all those techniques are?


I'm sure its written down somewhere, but I haven't seen it.  My teachers told me that this was the origin of this kind of attack.  It should be noted that the principles used in yubi tori hazushi can work against downward pushes and low thrusts. 



			
				Ceicei said:
			
		

> I think I am understanding what you are saying. You lost me, however, with the "outer level" and "inner levels". What do these mean?


When one is shown a kata, the outer technique looks exactly like what is shown.  Yubi Tori Hazushi, for instance, is an escape from a finger break.  This is the outer level of this technique.  The inner levels are the principles this technique teaches and how it applies to other situations.  There can be countless inner levels.  This distinction is not referring to a spatial inner/outer level of this technique.  It is rhetorical.



			
				Ceicei said:
			
		

> Ummm. Interesting. Are you saying that DZR is a very circular martial art? I'll have to try that and see how it works.


Sometimes it is circular.  Sometimes it is linear.  It depends on what your looking at and where you are looking from.  I wouldn't concern ones self too much with the distinction.  I have found that many time the preconceived notions from one art do not transfer well to others and that generalizations such as these can lead to mistakes and misinterpretations.  

In my opinion, when one is approaching a new art as an experienced martial artist, one initially wants to assume a "beginner's mind".  This is a mindset that wiped clean old knowledge and open to new ideas and concepts.  Here is to starting a new journey...

:asian: 

upnorthkyosa


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## Makalakumu (Oct 17, 2005)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Any tips on doing back/side breakfalls better?


Its hard to comment specifically without seeing them.  Generally, I believe that if you break the motion down into pieces, learn each peice well, and start slow one will eventually get a good breakfall.  

Once you have the peices of the technique down, speed it up gradually until you are able to do it full speed.


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## Ceicei (Oct 17, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Its hard to comment specifically without seeing them. Generally, I believe that if you break the motion down into pieces, learn each peice well, and start slow one will eventually get a good breakfall.
> 
> Once you have the peices of the technique down, speed it up gradually until you are able to do it full speed.


 Well, it is awfully hard to do a slow fall.  Anybody know how to talk to gravity about slowing it down?  Anyway, I've heard it said that the best fall is when you are completely off the ground  .  I :idunno: about that.  

 What my instructor is advising us to do is to fall from a "shorter" distance and then increase that distance.   Maybe I am in too much of a hurry since I really want to learn this well.  I also know I am not relaxed enough--it is kind of like a vicious cycle, I don't like to fall because of the possibility of getting hurt (since bad falls can make recovery longer), and not doing the falls properly is doing just that, getting myself hurt.  <sigh>  I do enjoy rolls though.  They're fun!  I need to remind myself again that time and patience  are the best process in setting up the correct fundamentals and basics.

 - Ceicei


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## Makalakumu (Oct 17, 2005)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Well, it is awfully hard to do a slow fall. Anybody know how to talk to gravity about slowing it down?


You could always practice your breakfalls on the moon!  The gravity is only 1/11th that of Earth.  Now THAT is what I call slowing it down.  :supcool: 



			
				Ceicei said:
			
		

> Anyway, I've heard it said that the best fall is when you are completely off the ground  . I :idunno: about that.


That is eventually where the system of breakfalls go.  All of them in the air.  I really like the ukemi in DZR.  Their system is comprehensive and it really teaches one to do them well.



			
				Ceicei said:
			
		

> What my instructor is advising us to do is to fall from a "shorter" distance and then increase that distance.


This is essentially what I was trying to suggest above, but it did not come out the way I wanted it too.



			
				Ceicei said:
			
		

> Maybe I am in too much of a hurry since I really want to learn this well. I also know I am not relaxed enough--it is kind of like a vicious cycle, I don't like to fall because of the possibility of getting hurt (since bad falls can make recovery longer), and not doing the falls properly is doing just that, getting myself hurt. <sigh> I do enjoy rolls though. They're fun! I need to remind myself again that time and patience are the best process in setting up the correct fundamentals and basics.


You'll eventually get it...and it will even start to become fun to be uke!  Keep up the good work!


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## Ceicei (Oct 30, 2005)

My left shoulder and leg are doing much better.  I had lost the strength of my arm/leg temporarily.  The muscle pulls apparently are short lived, the pain lasting only a week and a half.   I am glad the muscle pulls were not as bad as some may suggest.  It feels good to have my left side functioning again and I am now able to punch and kick just as hard.

I am doing the breakfalls much better with less tension, so I feel satisfied with my progress.  

However, I still get confused with which foot to end up doing forward rolls.  If I start with the left arm down, am I supposed to finish with the left leg, or with the opposite side?  I had previously learned from kenpo the forward rolls with line going from one shoulder to the opposite hip.  Now with Danzan, the line appears to be on the same side?

I am learning much, but some things puzzle me (from a kenpo point of view).  I learned the open palmed "double-hand slap down" (my description) and "double-hand slap up" (I don't know the proper Danzan terms for these).  Basically when a person throws a low punch,  double-hands would slap the fist down.  With a high punch would have the double-hands slapping upward.

The www.danzan.com doesn't give me enough information to identify them.  Their definition of defenses are too brief and general for me to pinpoint what they may be.  I suppose the longer I study, I will be able to understand more.  The problem is that I am deaf and I cannot figure out what words are associated with certain actions when my instructor says them.

Thank you,

Ceicei


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## Makalakumu (Oct 31, 2005)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> My left shoulder and leg are doing much better. I had lost the strength of my arm/leg temporarily. The muscle pulls apparently are short lived, the pain lasting only a week and a half. I am glad the muscle pulls were not as bad as some may suggest. It feels good to have my left side functioning again and I am now able to punch and kick just as hard.
> 
> I am doing the breakfalls much better with less tension, so I feel satisfied with my progress.


 
I'm glad your all healed up and ready to go again.  Great attitude!  Way to get back at it.



> However, I still get confused with which foot to end up doing forward rolls. If I start with the left arm down, am I supposed to finish with the left leg, or with the opposite side? I had previously learned from kenpo the forward rolls with line going from one shoulder to the opposite hip. Now with Danzan, the line appears to be on the same side?


 
The mechanics of the roll fall are still diagonal.  The leg opposite the arm that is down should be bent to spread the surface area of the side of the leg and absorb inpact.  Meanwhile, the same side leg should land lightly on the ball of the foot in order to facillitate getting back up quicker.



> I am learning much, but some things puzzle me (from a kenpo point of view). I learned the open palmed "double-hand slap down" (my description) and "double-hand slap up" (I don't know the proper Danzan terms for these). Basically when a person throws a low punch, double-hands would slap the fist down. With a high punch would have the double-hands slapping upward.


 
I'm not quite understanding "double slap up" or "double slap down" and I need a little more info to be really helpful.  This sounds like a couple of different techniques on various lists.


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## Ceicei (Nov 5, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I'm not quite understanding "double slap up" or "double slap down" and I need a little more info to be really helpful. This sounds like a couple of different techniques on various lists.



Well, I think I finally learned the name for it.  It is something like Ryo Ote Yuke.  I probably butchered the spelling.  It is supposed to be a type of a block.

- Ceicei


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## bMunky (Nov 17, 2005)

I'm in a DZR Jujitsu class, it's my first ever martial arts class and I'm enjoying it a lot. In a few weeks I have my first belt test. In are class we dont practice any strikes if we do it's just when to apply them and it's usually always an open handed attack. So far in this semester class has been really fun, are sensei is great and knows what shes talking about. So far we've learned a lot of the Yawara, all the break falls, front and back throws pretty much everything to get to yellow belt, as of now where just trying to get em down pat. How is everyone's else belt system, are's is like this after the first half a year you can test for yellow belt, the next half of year you can test for orange, than in a year you can test for blue, and in another year you can test for brown and every year after that till 3rd degree and than one more year for black belt. It's at our college and our sensei goes by semester and two semsters is a year and if you go in the summer you can add another semester to speed up the training process. I plan on going all year around, I'll soo be in capoeira classes too.


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## arnisador (Nov 18, 2005)

bMunky said:
			
		

> we've learned a lot of the Yawara



I always think of the weapon when I hear this term, yet I know it also describes a jujutsu system. What exactly does it mean here?


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## Makalakumu (Nov 18, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I always think of the weapon when I hear this term, yet I know it also describes a jujutsu system. What exactly does it mean here?


 
Yawara emphasizes technique over power.  I've heard it described as softness or gentleness or yeilding to win.


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## bMunky (Nov 18, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Yawara emphasizes technique over power. I've heard it described as softness or gentleness or yeilding to win.


 
Well, I think yawara means hand if I can remember correctly from my japanese language class and the yawara-bo is a hand or pocket stick so yawara = hand and bo = stick. And as I look at at my yellow belt requiremnet sheet it says yawara - hand arts


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