# Should "running" be part of your MA training?



## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 2, 2017)

If you can't fight your opponent, at least you should have the ability to run away. IMO, running should be an important part of the MA training. If you can run faster than your opponent, none of his MA skill can apply on you. Your thought?


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## Danny T (Apr 2, 2017)

Depending upon one's physical abilities I feel running is an excellent addition to a person's cardio conditioning training. Having had 2 total knee replacements running as a part of my training has been significantly curtailed.


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## JP3 (Apr 2, 2017)

Being able to get away is a valuable tool, sure. 

Thing is, I used to do about 20 miles of road work a week, which I know isn't a "lot," but it sufficed with the basketball and other things to keep me in very good cardio-shape.  Problem with that is those activities fall byt he wayside later on with job, life, wife, kids etc. and You have to cut out something else you want to do in order to do that thing you really don't want to do, but you know you should. It falls by the wayside.

I'd like to have 26 hours a day, to jam in 2 extra waking hours of "stuff" I'd like to get done each day.


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## KangTsai (Apr 2, 2017)

Yes. Also climbing and jumping. I have a sub-par sprint and cardio though.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 2, 2017)

KangTsai said:


> Yes. Also climbing and jumping. I have a sub-par sprint and cardio though.


To be able to jump up, reach your hands on the wall, pull yourself up above the wall, and flip yourself over is also an important MA skill.


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## KangTsai (Apr 3, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To be able to jump up, reach your hands on the wall, pull yourself up above the wall, and flip yourself over is also an important MA skill.


I'm great at pull ups, so it's a step forward.


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## Midnight-shadow (Apr 3, 2017)

Any athlete (including Martial Artists) should do some form of cardio. I personally favour swimming over running but to each their own. Running, Swimming, Cycling, Rowing, they all are very beneficial to the body and in my opinion are far better than any weight or resistance training.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Depending upon one's physical abilities I feel running is an excellent addition to a person's cardio conditioning training. Having had 2 total knee replacements running as a part of my training has been significantly curtailed.


This. I haven't had replacements (though I expect to at some point), but my knees (and one toe) don't seem to like me running sometimes. As it warms up, I'm giving it another try this year. If I can't get back into a rhythm of it, my distance running days are probably over, for the most part.

I'll probably keep doing some occasional sprints and other work to keep up some ability to escape (as well as for fitness), but I can no longer depend upon my running speed as I once could. Escape becomes a smaller part of my strategy every year.


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## JR 137 (Apr 3, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Any athlete (including Martial Artists) should do some form of cardio. I personally favour swimming over running but to each their own. Running, Swimming, Cycling, Rowing, they all are very beneficial to the body and in my opinion are far better than any weight or resistance training.



Why are they "far better than any weight or resistance training?"


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## thanson02 (Apr 3, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can't fight your opponent, at least you should have the ability to run away. IMO, running should be an important part of the MA training. If you can run faster than your opponent, none of his MA skill can apply on you. Your thought?



I see running as a form of evasion which is certainly part of martial art training.  I also see learning to talk someone down who is getting aggressive and managing aggressive behavior in general to also be part of martial art training.  Besides, a good cardio workout is a great benefit across the board.


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Why are they "far better than any weight or resistance training?"


there not in essance better , it how its done, people tend to focus on " Cardio" heart health which is important and can be maintained with weight training, but less so on the actual purposes of the heart which is to pump oxygenated blood to the muscles. What you need to develop is the bodies ability to metabalise oxygen, the heart ability to pump it and the muscles ability to use the oxygen efficiently . Which can't be done with low rep resistance training, but nether can it with slow cycling or rowing or jogging, at least not to any degree. You need intensity and duration to deplete the oxygen and get the body good at resupplying it at a good rate


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## oaktree (Apr 3, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can't fight your opponent, at least you should have the ability to run away. IMO, running should be an important part of the MA training. If you can run faster than your opponent, none of his MA skill can apply on you. Your thought?


 I would change running to timing and distancing. The idea of running is to get away(time plus distance) but timing and distancing also means to put obstacles in front of your opponent meaning say, in a crowd difficult to run but possible to put obstacles or people in way as you weave through it. Timing and distancing also deals with how to intercept an attack. For someone who is crippled or elderly running may be difficult to do hence why timing and distancing is a better option


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

thanson02 said:


> I see running as a form of evasion which is certainly part of martial art training.  I also see learning to talk someone down who is getting aggressive and managing aggressive behavior in general to also be part of martial art training.  Besides, a good cardio workout is a great benefit across the board.


my thought exactly , for either running a way or chasing, an ability to run fast over a medium distance could prove extremely usefull, I elected on a half mile as the best point, that will get me away from people who can only run a hundred yards, but means I can run a lot faster than the joggers . I do a timed run at this distance twice a week and have made great improvements


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## Midnight-shadow (Apr 3, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Why are they "far better than any weight or resistance training?"



Slightly biased because I prefer Cardio over Weights haha, plus since I focus mostly on weight loss, Cardio is generally accepted as being better than weights training for that, assuming you do the correct intensity.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 3, 2017)

All I can say is per my MD (Orthopedic), due to knee and hip issues, I should not be running for exercise, however bicycling is ok, I have often wondered what would happen if I had to run because the few times I have tried of late...I can't


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## Tez3 (Apr 3, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> I have often wondered what would happen if I had to run because the few times I have tried of late...I can't



There are certain situations that have people like you and me running like Usain Bolt so I wouldn't worry about it!


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 3, 2017)

I study martial arts because running isn't really an option for me.

I know of martial arts training facilities near me that require students to be able to complete a one mile run at each underbelt level and five miles in under an hour for black belt.  Yay them.  

I did all my running in the Marine Corps.  I'm too old and too ornery to run now.


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## shihansmurf (Apr 3, 2017)

I'm not convinced that running specifically should be a required part of martial art training but physical conditioning should be. Martial Art is a physical endeavor and being strong, agile, and having good cardio can only improve one's ability to perform their art. Personally, I weight train three days a week and do cardio on the other three days. In class we open with a bit of calisthenics. 

I don't have specific fitness requirements for belt  promotions, however the tests are difficult enough that most of my students do outside fitness training in order to perform.

The above is just my view on things, people train for a variety of reasons and should train acordingly.

Mark


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## DanT (Apr 3, 2017)

I run when preparing for tournaments, but I skip and weight train year round. I've always had good cardio and can usually spar 15 2 min rounds straight before I get tired. When I do run I usually just do short bursts of 15 seconds followed by 1 minute of jogging, and run for no more than 15 minutes. I honestly enjoy sparring and weight training much more and get most of my cardio from that tho.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

shihansmurf said:


> I'm not convinced that running specifically should be a required part of martial art training but physical conditioning should be. Martial Art is a physical endeavor and being strong, agile, and having good cardio can only improve one's ability to perform their art. Personally, I weight train three days a week and do cardio on the other three days. In class we open with a bit of calisthenics.
> 
> I don't have specific fitness requirements for belt  promotions, however the tests are difficult enough that most of my students do outside fitness training in order to perform.
> 
> ...


I agree, with the caveat that it should be individual, not a set standard. 

If a guy starts training with me at 40, and is 100 lbs overweight and out of shape, he may never be able to do the things I'd expect of someone who started as I did (18 and athletic, when I started what became my primary art). So, I'd be looking for the fit people to do enough to at least maintain fitness. I'd expect the slightly out-of-shape to get fit. I'd expect the hypothetical guy I started this paragraph with to improve his fitness. Those would be my requirements for them to progress over time.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 3, 2017)

DanT said:


> I run when preparing for tournaments, but I skip and weight train year round. I've always had good cardio and can usually spar 15 2 min rounds straight before I get tired. When I do run I usually just do short bursts of 15 seconds followed by 1 minute of jogging, and run for no more than 15 minutes. I honestly enjoy sparring and weight training much more and get most of my cardio from that tho.



Had a Xingyi shifu who, prior to getting into CMA, fought in Karate Matches and his view was if you are going to compete you just have to accept the fact that you will need to be running at least 5 miles per day. But if you are not competing he did not see the sense in it as long as you were in reasonably good shape.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I agree, with the caveat that it should be individual, not a set standard.
> 
> If a guy starts training with me at 40, and is 100 lbs overweight and out of shape, he may never be able to do the things I'd expect of someone who started as I did (18 and athletic, when I started what became my primary art). So, I'd be looking for the fit people to do enough to at least maintain fitness. I'd expect the slightly out-of-shape to get fit. I'd expect the hypothetical guy I started this paragraph with to improve his fitness. Those would be my requirements for them to progress over time.



Go back 15, 20 years and I use to train a minimum 1.5 to 2 hours a day...then a tree fell on me and that was the end of that for a while. Then got back to a hour 5 days per week, then broke an ankle, followed by messed up a knee, followed by messed up the other knee. When I could get back to training I decided to try and get back to my 1.5 to 2 hours a day using the same routine...of course this is now 15 years later and I would reinjure myself, went to the old 5 day a week routine, reinjured myself, did this several times before I both realized and accepted that a man in his 50s, who has been fairly sedentary due to injuries, cannot workout like a guy in his late 30s early 40s who has maintained his routine for several years. after multiple routines and a few MDs telling me what I can and cannot do and should and should not do I think I have it and so far I have not reinjured myself.

Long way to say I agree with you and I am saying this based on personal experience.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 3, 2017)

Let me put it another way...

Requirements for certain levels of physical fitness or 'running' are exclusive.  In other words, they serve to exclude.  Well, I'm sorry, you seem to be able to do the martial arts techniques we have taught you, but you can't run, so no promotion for you.

Or you're too fat.

Or you're too old.

Or you have a disability.

Or you are too....

Bottom line, if 'running' or 'being skinny' or 'being in good physical condition' is a requirement for advancement in a given martial arts style, I have zero interest in that style, and frankly, little respect for anyone who would demand those things as a condition for promotion.  In this world of people trying hard to find a 'reason' to exclude people they don't like from their little clubs, I don't want to be a member of any club that works that way.

I am 56 years old in July.  I'm not in great shape.  I have diabetes, I'm overweight, I have a couple other pesky little diseases I won't bother mentioning.  This is as good as it gets.  That's either good enough or it is not; it won't change at this point, barring something miraculous.  Frankly, I would suggest that I can hold my own on the mat.  I'm willing to put that to the test if any twig wants to give me a try.


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## DanT (Apr 3, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Had a Xingyi shifu who, prior to getting into CMA, fought in Karate Matches and his view was if you are going to compete you just have to accept the fact that you will need to be running at least 5 miles per day. But if you are not competing he did not see the sense in it as long as you were in reasonably good shape.


I agree, although I don't run 5 miles, maybe 2. Sparring to me helps more with cardio than anything.


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Let me put it another way...
> 
> Requirements for certain levels of physical fitness or 'running' are exclusive.  In other words, they serve to exclude.  Well, I'm sorry, you seem to be able to do the martial arts techniques we have taught you, but you can't run, so no promotion for you.
> 
> ...


yes i see your point, but if you follow it through to it logical conclusion, you will end up with a class full of black belts that can hardly walk, there surely has to be a minimum fitness level associated with each level of grade .
I see it differently I'm 58 and I used to be fat weak and slow , now I'm not because I took my marshal arts seriously, if I'm not fit enough to wear a belt with honour I don't want it given to me out of sympathy


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes i see your point, but if you follow it through to it logical conclusion, you will end up with a class full of black belts that can hardly walk, there surely has to be a minimum fitness level associated with each level of grade .
> I see it differently I'm 58 and I used to be fat weak and slow , now I'm not because I took my marshal arts seriously, if I'm not fit enough to wear a belt with honour I don't want it given to me out of sympathy



I don't know what your martial arts style is, but in mine, a person can do the techniques or they cannot.  We happen to have a student who 'cannot walk'.  He can do the techniques (granted, some are modified to fit his disability).  You would seem to be suggesting that we should turn him away.  After all, he 'cannot walk'.  

I can do the techniques necessary for my training.  I don't know what my weight has to do with anything at all.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes i see your point, but if you follow it through to it logical conclusion, you will end up with a class full of black belts that can hardly walk, there surely has to be a minimum fitness level associated with each level of grade .
> I see it differently I'm 58 and I used to be fat weak and slow , now I'm not because I took my marshal arts seriously, if I'm not fit enough to wear a belt with honour I don't want it given to me out of sympathy



And may I just add that's some seriously insulting garbage right there.  You insinuate that because I am fat, I am 'weak and slow' and that my black belt was given to me out of sympathy.  Up yours, pal.  Seriously.


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> And may I just add that's some seriously insulting garbage right there.  You insinuate that because I am fat, I am 'weak and slow' and that my black belt was given to me out of sympathy.  Up yours, pal.  Seriously.


??? That's your issue not mine, you said you were over weight, I said I was fat and weak and slow, I know nothing at all about your condition but what you have posted. But being over weight with diabetes. Doesn't paint a picture of good health


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## Danny T (Apr 3, 2017)

As I stated; 'depending upon one's physical abilities'...
Have a student who has one leg; his prosthesis doesn't allow him to run.
Have a student who has a thyroid condition (is under medical care) is obese and can't run but works hard and can do most of the techniques well. Understands how to do those he has difficulty with and is excellent in coaching others do them well.
Have had in the past students in wheel chairs. 
We modify and develop them to greatest of their capacities.


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I don't know what your martial arts style is, but in mine, a person can do the techniques or they cannot.  We happen to have a student who 'cannot walk'.  He can do the techniques (granted, some are modified to fit his disability).  You would seem to be suggesting that we should turn him away.  After all, he 'cannot walk'.
> 
> I can do the techniques necessary for my training.  I don't know what my weight has to do with anything at all.


I've not said anyone should be turned away, its the society we live in , every one gets a prize, turn up for 6 months and get a belt.
when I was starting my fitness , it was suggested that I play walking football, my response was quite literally, id sooner die trying to play proper football, than accept second best. And play real football I did, then they gave me a prize for being the oldest there, I left the week after


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Had a Xingyi shifu who, prior to getting into CMA, fought in Karate Matches and his view was if you are going to compete you just have to accept the fact that you will need to be running at least 5 miles per day. But if you are not competing he did not see the sense in it as long as you were in reasonably good shape.


I'm not sure I see the connection between 5 miles a day and competing in a tournament. There are other ways than running that much to get one's wind up, and it's arguable that distance running at that level isn't developing the best type of endurance for those matches.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Let me put it another way...
> 
> Requirements for certain levels of physical fitness or 'running' are exclusive.  In other words, they serve to exclude.  Well, I'm sorry, you seem to be able to do the martial arts techniques we have taught you, but you can't run, so no promotion for you.
> 
> ...


Agreed. I can't see any reason to have a baseline fitness every student must reach, nor a baseline activity level. If they can do the activities of the program, they are doing what is required. In my case, that includes an informal requirement that they be working on their fitness in some reasonable way (maintaining or improving, depending upon their personal need and capacity).

The only place I could see a blanket fitness requirement ("You must be this fit to get ____") would be in a heavy competition environment, where a coach wants to only coach those with a high chance of success in some type of gruelling competition. Anywhere else, fitness should be based upon the needs of the activity. I use fitness goals and expectations (as I said earlier, those are relative to where they start, and based on their capacities) to help folks improve their overall abilities.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes i see your point, but if you follow it through to it logical conclusion, you will end up with a class full of black belts that can hardly walk, there surely has to be a minimum fitness level associated with each level of grade .
> I see it differently I'm 58 and I used to be fat weak and slow , now I'm not because I took my marshal arts seriously, if I'm not fit enough to wear a belt with honour I don't want it given to me out of sympathy


I don't think that's a logical conclusion. That's an outside possibility. I've been to many schools with absolutely no fitness requirement (nor even an informal expectation), and nearly all of the black belts were reasonably fit (or better).


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 3, 2017)

My training include 4 parts:

1. MA,
2. weight,
3. running.
4. stretching.

If this week I spend 3 days in running + stretching + MA and 2 days in weight + MA, next week I will spend 3 days in weight + MA and 2 days in running + stretching + MA. 

The funny thing is I won't feel guilty if I skip one day of MA training or weight training. But I do feel guilty to skip one day of my running. The fear that one day I'll be too old to run just keep me running. The way that I look at this is, if I don't use it, I'll lose it.


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## Jenna (Apr 3, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can't fight your opponent, at least you should have the ability to run away. IMO, running should be an important part of the MA training. If you can run faster than your opponent, none of his MA skill can apply on you. Your thought?


What if this bogey man can also run fast.. he may be faster and fitter and you have already assessed that you cannot fight your opponent which is why you opted have ran away.. what next?


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

Jenna said:


> What if this bogey man can also run fast.. he may be faster and fitter and you have already assessed that you cannot fight your opponent which is why you opted have ran away.. what next?


then you 've had it , its the law of the jungle there is always someone faster/stronger than you are, but it a simple numbers game, if your slightly better than averagely fit then you can fight / run away from 50% of the population, if you are somewhat better than average then you can out fight/run ,say 70% of the population. The better you get the safer you are ?


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## Jenna (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> then you had it , its the law of the jungle there is always someone faster/stronger than you are, but it a simple numbers game, if your slightly better than averagely fit then you can fight / run away from 50% of the population, if you are somewhat better than average then you can out fight/run say 70% of the population. The better you get the safer you are ?


So if I keep Usain Bolt with me at all time.. I should be safe enough? I can get on his back.. I am not very heavy  just kidding..  I agree with you


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## DanT (Apr 3, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My training include 4 parts:
> 
> 1. MA,
> 2. weight,
> ...


Interesting, for me I see everything as part of my martial training, including the running and weight lifting. Why do you consider them separate?


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

Jenna said:


> What if this bogey man can also run fast.. he may be faster and fitter and you have already assessed that you cannot fight your opponent which is why you opted have ran away.. what next?


First, you have to decide if not fighting is an option. Is giving in an option? If not, then you have to decide that the odds don't matter. It doesn't matter if you can't beat him, you still have to beat him. You might fail, but you have to put everything you have into that, if that's the only option you see.


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

Jenna said:


> So if I keep Usain Bolt with me at all time.. I should be safe enough? I can get on his back.. I am not very heavy  just kidding..  I agree with you


 actually having a really. Hard mate you go every where with is a good plan b


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

DanT said:


> Interesting, for me I see everything as part of my martial training, including the running and weight lifting. Why do you consider them separate?


I'm in between those points. I keep some cardio/interval training (and even a bit of strength work) within my MA training. For some reason, however, I've never viewed my running, hiking, workouts at the gym, yoga, and other stuff as part of my MA training. There's no reason it isn't. In fact, it really is part of the same mindset. But I've never competed in MA, so I've never had that direct tie. In fact, now that I consider it, I've always thought of it the other way around: my MA training is part of how I keep fit. Odd, now that I ponder it.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure I see the connection between 5 miles a day and competing in a tournament. There are other ways than running that much to get one's wind up, and it's arguable that distance running at that level isn't developing the best type of endurance for those matches.



He was likely competing in the 70s, believe it or not, he is older than me.


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## Tez3 (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> I've not said anyone should be turned away, its the society we live in , every one gets a prize, turn up for 6 months and get a belt.



Oh dear.

Maxim to remember ......   old and sneaky beats young and fit any day because I didn't get this old by being gentle, sweet and nice.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> He was likely competing in the 70s, believe it or not, he is older than me.


That does make some sense. Different info, different approach to fitness.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> He was likely competing in the 70s, believe it or not, he is older than me.


Wait, there are people older than YOU?????


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> Maxim to remember ......   old and sneaky beats young and fit any day because I didn't get this old by being gentle, sweet and nice.


notice your not saying old sneaky and chronically unfit beats young strong athletic and lightning fast


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## Tez3 (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> notice your not saying old sneaky and chronically unfit beats young strong athletic and lightning fast



Judging someone by their 'fitness' and medical problems is a very good way to get thumped. I've seen ripped young men who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag and I've seen someone with one lung beat down a much younger person. 'Unfit' doesn't mean useless or unable to drop someone, it means actually because they will probably only have one shot at it they have become very very good with that one shot.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Wait, there are people older than YOU?????



Shocking isn't it....but wait, there's more....he was also the first non-Chinese Shifu I had in CMA, as well as the first martial arts teacher I had the was taller than me too.


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Judging someone by their 'fitness' and medical problems is a very good way to get thumped. I've seen ripped young men who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag and I've seen someone with one lung beat down a much younger person. 'Unfit' doesn't mean useless or unable to drop someone, it means actually because they will probably only have one shot at it they have become very very good with that one shot.


judging someone by their lack of obvious muscle is a good way to get thumped, judging someone who is obviously unfit is fairly safe unless you walk on to a sucker punch , just dance around a bit till they gas up


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Shocking isn't it....but wait, there's more....he was also the first non-Chinese Shifu I had in CMA, as well as the first martial arts teacher I had the was taller than me too.


Shocking, indeed!


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> judging someone by their lack of obvious muscle is a good way to get thumped, judging someone who is obviously unfit is fairly safe unless you walk on to a sucker punch , just dance around a bit till they gas up


That last part will only work if they play your game and try to hit you while you "dance around". If they are good, they'll be patient and wait for you to either move into their range on a downbeat, or just let you dance until you reach their fitness level.


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## Buka (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes i see your point, but if you follow it through to it logical conclusion, you will end up with a class full of black belts that can hardly walk, there surely has to be a minimum fitness level associated with each level of grade .
> I see it differently I'm 58 and I used to be fat weak and slow , now I'm not because I took my marshal arts seriously, if I'm not fit enough to wear a belt with honour I don't want it given to me out of sympathy



That's very insulting. 

I also find the fact that you mention "honour" amusing.


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That last part will only work if they play your game and try to hit you while you "dance around". If they are good, they'll be patient and wait for you to either move into their range on a downbeat, or just let you dance until you reach their fitness level.


that's not really a fight though is it, standing there till someone comes in range. It doesn't alter the fact that fighting is an athletic activerty, and while being fit doesn't make you a good fighter, you cant be a good fighter if you have no athletic ability. I seen lot of fight abandoned after two minutes , as both sides are to exhausted to carry on. Fine if you have a killer right hand and you can land it, not so if he smashed you in the nose and doggies out of range


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

Buka said:


> That's very insulting.
> 
> I also find the fact that you mention "honour" amusing.


im sorry if you find it insulting, it wasn't meant to be, but belts for long service are a fact of the ma world


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> im sorry if you find it insulting, it wasn't meant to be, but belts for long service are a fact of the ma world



as are accusations about peoples rank who you truly know nothing about beyond a web post and assumptions. And yes I am with Buka on this.


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## Tez3 (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> judging someone by their lack of obvious muscle is a good way to get thumped, judging someone who is obviously unfit is fairly safe unless you walk on to a sucker punch , just dance around a bit till they gas up



Ah the words of the over confident.


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> as are accusations about peoples rank who you truly know nothing about beyond a web post and assumptions. And yes I am with Buka on this.


who have accused?,I mearly said I wouldn't accept a sympathy belt, not that any particular individual had such. Seems I might have hit a nerve here


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Ah the words of the over confident.


I'm anything but I've put a lot of effort in to my fitness so I can be confident in my abilities at an advanced age, over confidence is what a few here are displaying by thinking their skills will make up for a lack of conditioning


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## elder999 (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> judging someone who is obviously unfit



Define "obviously unfit," please?


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

elder999 said:


> Define "obviously unfit," please?


finding a fat bloke that can run a bit is hardly indicative of fat people general being fast on their feet.
you want a defintion of unfit? Someone who fall below the 4 th quartile of any of the numerous fitness indexis for their age
obviously unfit you would put your last pound on the fact they can't run a 10 minute mile bench press their own weight or of manage 5 mins of skipping


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## Tez3 (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> so I can be confident in my abilities at an advanced age, over confidence is what a few here are displaying by thinking their skills will make up for a lack of conditioning



Ah, advanced age, now that will come back and bite you on the bum, however fit you may be now there is much that can and will go wrong and you will not be as fit as you think you will be, in fact the fitness you are doing now may well contribute to your future unfitness.

I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that many on here have actually got the experience of knowing their skills make up for what you say is their 'lack of conditioning'? Do you think we speak hypothetically? If so, you would be very wrong.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> that's not really a fight though is it, standing there till someone comes in range. It doesn't alter the fact that fighting is an athletic activerty, and while being fit doesn't make you a good fighter, you cant be a good fighter if you have no athletic ability. I seen lot of fight abandoned after two minutes , as both sides are to exhausted to carry on. Fine if you have a killer right hand and you can land it, not so if he smashed you in the nose and doggies out of range


Are you assuming all martial artists are looking for an arranged fight? Most I know train for defense, and I have no need to defend if you are dancing around out of range. I'm safe, and you're getting tired.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm anything but I've put a lot of effort in to my fitness so I can be confident in my abilities at an advanced age, over confidence is what a few here are displaying by thinking their skills will make up for a lack of conditioning


You're making a whole bushel of assumptions in that last statement.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> im sorry if you find it insulting, it wasn't meant to be, but belts for long service are a fact of the ma world


And each belt only means whatever it means. It took me well over a decade to get my black belt. I know people in some styles routinely get them in under two years. Theirs means something different than mine does, and that's okay. If someone gets a belt to demonstrate their understanding and commitment, that's what it means. There's no dishonor in that.


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Are you assuming all martial artists are looking for an arranged fight? Most I know train for defense, and I have no need to defend if you are dancing around out of range. I'm safe, and you're getting tired.


no. To fit the general accept defintion of a fight, there needs to a coming together, standing there looking ready whilst the other bloke dances around isn't fighting, it might count as self defence


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You're making a whole bushel of assumptions in that last statement.


no, the opening exchanges of this was my reply to a guy telling me he was over weight and unfit, his words, he then went on to explain, that this didn't in anyway hamper his fighting abilities, so tell me, what assumptions have I made?


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> And each belt only means whatever it means. It took me well over a decade to get my black belt. I know people in some styles routinely get them in under two years. Theirs means something different than mine does, and that's okay. If someone gets a belt to demonstrate their understanding and commitment, that's what it means. There's no dishonor in that.


no dishonour, but not a lot of actual honour either, I would feel a great deal of pride to match your achievement , non at all if all I had to do was keep turning up, its like giving the kid who can't run an award for having the best smile at the school sports day


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## Tez3 (Apr 3, 2017)

Well if a man with no legs can run the Marathon des Sables............

Double amputee set to take on 'toughest race on earth'


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> no dishonour, but not a lot of actual honour either, I would feel a great deal of pride to match your achievement , non at all if all I had to do was keep turning up, its like giving the kid who can't run an award for having the best smile at the school sports day





Tez3 said:


> Well if a man with no legs can run the Marathon des Sables............
> 
> Double amputee set to take on 'toughest race on earth'


well that's my point exactly, he hasn't welched on his fitness or made excuses for not being fit


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> no. To fit the general accept defintion of a fight, there needs to a coming together, standing there looking ready whilst the other bloke dances around isn't fighting, it might count as self defence


That's what I just said.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> no, the opening exchanges of this was my reply to a guy telling me he was over weight and unfit, his words, he then went on to explain, that this didn't in anyway hamper his fighting abilities, so tell me, what assumptions have I made?


That people are being overconfident about their abilities (remember that you have replied to more than the OP), and that those folks have poor fitness, among others.


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That's what I just said.


no, you said that constuted a fight


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That people are being overconfident about their abilities (remember that you have replied to more than the OP), and that those folks have poor fitness, among others.


he not the only one to run the same line, is im old I'm unfit I'm fat but I can still knock people over sort of thing


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> no dishonour, but not a lot of actual honour either, I would feel a great deal of pride to match your achievement , non at all if all I had to do was keep turning up, its like giving the kid who can't run an award for having the best smile at the school sports day


No, it would be like giving the kid who kept trying to run even though he couldn't, and who managed to get better than he was, a "hardest path" trophy, perhaps. 

There are good reasons to give rank to people who can't meet the normal standards. I've promoted people who couldn't do some of the kicks to standard, because their hips simply don't move that way. If I had someone show up who only had one arm or hand (I trained alongside someone like that for a while), I'd find a way to evaluate them for promotion despite the fact that they couldn't meet some of my qualification standards.

That's all actually beside the point, though. If someone can meet the qualifications for their style (ability to spar, self-defense tests, whatever), then their objective fitness level is not directly relevant to promotion.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> no, you said that constuted a fight


Actually, I didn't. I was pointing out that some of us on here don't need to be able to deal with that kind of fight. I don't compete, so there's nothing to compel me to deal with someone dancing around me outside striking distance. I don't need to pursue them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> he not the only one to run the same line, is im old I'm unfit I'm fat but I can still knock people over sort of thing


I met a Ryukyu Kempo instructor who looked like Santa Clause. He could hand me my *** at my best. He was old, he was fat, and he could kick butt.


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> No, it would be like giving the kid who kept trying to run even though he couldn't, and who managed to get better than he was, a "hardest path" trophy, perhaps.
> 
> There are good reasons to give rank to people who can't meet the normal standards. I've promoted people who couldn't do some of the kicks to standard, because their hips simply don't move that way. If I had someone show up who only had one arm or hand (I trained alongside someone like that for a while), I'd find a way to evaluate them for promotion despite the fact that they couldn't meet some of my qualification standards.
> 
> That's all actually beside the point, though. If someone can meet the qualifications for their style (ability to spar, self-defense tests, whatever), then their objective fitness level is not directly relevant to promotion.


id sooner have a best smile award, than a hardest path

but your point is about one of the things that perplex me about ma against most other athletic activities. When I did my class 1 swimming certificate for instance, I had to dive for a brick, then swim various strokes in a pair of PJs. I couldn't do brest stroke properly, so they said sorry, you don't get an award. It's the same with all the others I can think off, can't do the isometric bars, no gymnastics medal, cant throw a javelin no decathlons medal . can't do a passable passodobly, no dancing medal, can't do a double pike with half twist, no diving medal, it seems the only athletic event where if you cant meet the standard, they change the standard and give you an award anyway


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I met a Ryukyu Kempo instructor who looked like Santa Clause. He could hand me my *** at my best. He was old, he was fat, and he could kick butt.


I'm sure, but I'm betting he was quite fit


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> id sooner have a best smile award, than a hardest path
> 
> but your point is about one of the things that perplex me about ma against most other athletic activities. When I did my class 1 swimming certificate for instance, I had to dive for a brick, then swim various strokes in a pair of PJs. I couldn't do brest stroke properly, so they said sorry, you don't get an award. It's the same with all the others I can think off, can't do the isometric bars, no gymnastics medal, cant throw a javelin no decathlons medal . can't do a passable passodobly, no dancing medal, it seems the only athletic event where if you cant meet the standard, they change the standard and give you an award anyway


Well, it depends what the point of the standard is. In my case, I'm not trying to build great Aikidoka. I'm training people to use the art to defend themselves. If they can't do part of it because of some limitation, I make sure they can accomplish what should be accomplished (the level of competency). If I were trying to produce first class practitioners of NGA, then I'd be really strict on their ability to perform the art, but the art is the vehicle, not the point of the training.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm sure, but I'm betting he was quite fit


I can't speak to that. He never had to work very hard in what I saw. He could probably still spar reasonably, but that can be accomplished by being more efficient as fitness drops.


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> id sooner have a best smile award, than a hardest path
> 
> but your point is about one of the things that perplex me about ma against most other athletic activities. When I did my class 1 swimming certificate for instance, I had to dive for a brick, then swim various strokes in a pair of PJs. I couldn't do brest stroke properly, so they said sorry, you don't get an award. It's the same with all the others I can think off, can't do the isometric bars, no gymnastics medal, cant throw a javelin no decathlons medal . can't do a passable passodobly, no dancing medal, it seems the only athletic event where if you cant meet the standard, they change the standard and give you an award anyway





gpseymour said:


> Well, it depends what the point of the standard is. In my case, I'm not trying to build great Aikidoka. I'm training people to use the art to defend themselves. If they can't do part of it because of some limitation, I make sure they can accomplish what should be accomplished (the level of competency). If I were trying to produce first class practitioners of NGA, then I'd be really strict on their ability to perform the art, but the art is the vehicle, not the point of the training.


yes bit you've set a minimum standard, then revise it downwards if they cant meet it. And set a new minimum standard then can reach. It makes the whole thing pointless, you may just as well ask them what them what they can do and give them the grade. The fact that its for self defence makes it more imperative that they get a frank assessment of their abilities


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> who have accused?,I mearly said I wouldn't accept a sympathy belt, not that any particular individual had such. Seems I might have hit a nerve here



Intersting response, may want to reread your post that kicked this all off. 

Oh and for the record, I'm a traditional CMA guy, we don't have belt ranks, nor do we care about them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes bit you've set a minimum standard, then revise it downwards if they cant meet it. And set a new minimum standard then can reach. It makes the whole thing pointless, you may just as well ask them what them what they can do and give them the grade. The fact that its for self defence makes it more imperative that they get a frank assessment of their abilities


Not downward. Differently. I set a standard that is designed to reflect the goal. If they can't meet that standard because of a limitation, I have to evaluate their ability to meet the overall goal, absent that standard. It doesn't make things pointless, at all. They don't get to decide the evaluation points - that's my job.

You seem to really want me to be wrong on something. Keep looking - I'm definitely wrong at times, so you're bound to find something that suits your needs.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> finding a fat bloke that can run a bit is hardly indicative of fat people general being fast on their feet.
> you want a defintion of unfit? Someone who fall below the 4 th quartile of any of the numerous fitness indexis for their age
> obviously unfit you would put your last pound on the fact they can't run a 10 minute mile bench press their own weight or of manage 5 mins of skipping



hmm, I can't run a 10 minute mile, as a matter of fact I really can't run much at all, don't much care about weights anymore and skipping is right out...guess I'm obviously unfit.

Now if you will excuse me I have to log off to go do my 40 minute Yoga routine and do at least 20 minutes on my stationary bike. And if I have time I will have to spend at least 10 to 30 minutes on my forms.... that is what us unfit guys do.


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Not downward. Differently. I set a standard that is designed to reflect the goal. If they can't meet that standard because of a limitation, I have to evaluate their ability to meet the overall goal, absent that standard. It doesn't make things pointless, at all. They don't get to decide the evaluation points - that's my job.
> 
> You seem to really want me to be wrong on something. Keep looking - I'm definitely wrong at times, so you're bound to find something that suits your needs.


well they do sort of, if they cant do a skill, you remove the skill of the test, how is that not revising downwards?


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> hmm, I can't run a 10 minute mile, as a matter of fact I really can't run much at all, don't much care about weights anymore and skipping is right out...guess I'm obviously unfit.
> 
> Now if you will excuse me I have to log off to go do my 40 minute Yoga routine and do at least 20 minutes on my stationary bike. And if I have time I will have to spend at least 10 to 30 minutes on my forms.... that is what us unfit guys do.


that will work if you have to make a quick getaway jump on your stationary bike, no wait, you could bore them to death by doing forms and yoga incantations


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 3, 2017)

Jenna said:


> What if this bogey man can also run fast.. he may be faster and fitter and you have already assessed that you cannot fight your opponent which is why you opted have ran away.. what next?


You just tell the other guy, "If you dare to touch me, I'll sue you."


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> that will work if you have to make a quick getaway jump on your stationary bike, no wait, you could bore them to death by doing forms and yoga incantations



Again intersting, you are looking to start trouble.. that my friend is a troll..... now I am going to log off... I wish you all the best, but I doubt you will be around here long


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## jobo (Apr 3, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Again intersting, you are looking to start trouble.. that my friend is a troll..... now I am going to log off... I wish you all the best, but I doubt you will be around here long


I was only joking, I'm sure your forms are intresting


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 3, 2017)

DanT said:


> Interesting, for me I see everything as part of my martial training, including the running and weight lifting. Why do you consider them separate?


If I train 30 MA combo drills and repeat each drills 20 times, I'll work on my drill 600 times. That will take a certain amount of time. I like to keep it separate away from my running, stretching (I usually do my stretching after running), and weight (include heavy bag training)


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 3, 2017)

It works for me.  I have running in my training but it's not the running that you guys do.  I run less than 400 yards as my training.   I run forward, backwards, and side ways, and karaokes 





If a person can't run then they need to get their cardio in another way, and then make sure their self-defense plan takes into consideration that they won't be running away.


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## kuniggety (Apr 4, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Slightly biased because I prefer Cardio over Weights haha, plus since I focus mostly on weight loss, Cardio is generally accepted as being better than weights training for that, assuming you do the correct intensity.



It depends if your goal is really weight loss or it's actually fat loss. Once upon a time I was putting 30+ miles a week on the pavement and was 35 lbs lighter than I am now. Was my body fat really that much lower than it is now? Not really. But now I can do things such as pick up weights much heavier than my body. A balance between the two is best but put an Olympic lifter next to a marathoner and tell me who looks healthier to you. You burn massive amounts of calories when you lift heavy and when your body is repairing your muscles. In any case, diet is key.


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## Buka (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes bit you've set a minimum standard, then revise it downwards if they cant meet it. And set a new minimum standard then can reach. It makes the whole thing pointless, you may just as well ask them what them what they can do and give them the grade. The fact that its for self defence makes it more imperative that they get a frank assessment of their abilities



I'm having trouble understanding your posts. Perhaps you could punctuate? (I'm just trying to follow along)


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## Headhunter (Apr 4, 2017)

No...simply because some people either don't want to do running or simply can't because of injuries. Those guys can train martial arts but if running was so important then they wouldn't be able to do it which is unfair. If you want to add it into your own training then fine but it shouldn't be something you're made to do. There should be some fitness elements in class but it shouldn't be the focus. You're there to learn your skills so that should be the priority. Fitness can be easily done in your own time


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> No...simply because some people either don't want to do running or simply can't because of injuries. Those guys can train martial arts but if running was so important then they wouldn't be able to do it which is unfair. If you want to add it into your own training then fine but it shouldn't be something you're made to do. There should be some fitness elements in class but it shouldn't be the focus. You're there to learn your skills so that should be the priority. Fitness can be easily done in your own time


 don't think the question is about own time/ lesson time, so much as it its a requirement of a good marshal artist. I think its a very good skill to have, but more important is having the cardio potential that running gives,. So if you can get it another way that's fine. Bur that level of cardio is hard to reproduce with out a machine, bike rowing etc. So running is the cheapest way and it takes up less room


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> well they do sort of, if they cant do a skill, you remove the skill of the test, how is that not revising downwards?


Because that one skill isn't the point of the test, as I said rather clearly earlier. I'm helping people build a broad skillset for a specific purpose (defense). If they are physically incapable of a technique, I have to build that broad skillset without it. They'll be more narrow in their options, but if they can perform at the same level, they have met the actual conceptual criteria. The testing criteria are just a means to get at that conceptual criteria. I have no actual concern over whether someone can do a specific technique, except where it is useful in that overall goal.

If they are to become an instructor of my curriculum, I have to know they can teach the technique, but that doesn't necessarily require they be able to do the technique (though it would certainly help). If they can bring me students they've prepared properly (which is the actual testing for instructor), then I know they can do that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 4, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> It works for me.  I have running in my training but it's not the running that you guys do.  I run less than 400 yards as my training.   I run forward, backwards, and side ways, and karaokes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When did those become karaokes instead of grapevines?


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> It works for me.  I have running in my training but it's not the running that you guys do.  I run less than 400 yards as my training.   I run forward, backwards, and side ways, and karaokes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


that looks pretty intense, might give that a go, I'm currently chasing a mile and a half in ten mins, which is the British arm test standard


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Buka said:


> I'm having trouble understanding your posts. Perhaps you could punctuate? (I'm just trying to follow along)


The general gist is, that if you keep dropping the test standard to accommodate the weakness of your candidate, then your tests levels become a nice to have and not a level of achievement relative to the grade in question. I suppose its a commercial reality if you want them to keep attending.


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Because that one skill isn't the point of the test, as I said rather clearly earlier. I'm helping people build a broad skillset for a specific purpose (defense). If they are physically incapable of a technique, I have to build that broad skillset without it. They'll be more narrow in their options, but if they can perform at the same level, they have met the actual conceptual criteria. The testing criteria are just a means to get at that conceptual criteria. I have no actual concern over whether someone can do a specific technique, except where it is useful in that overall goal.
> 
> If they are to become an instructor of my curriculum, I have to know they can teach the technique, but that doesn't necessarily require they be able to do the technique (though it would certainly help). If they can bring me students they've prepared properly (which is the actual testing for instructor), then I know they can do that.


err ,you don't think instructors who can correctly demonstrate a technique is a requirement of being an instructor?

to be honest it sounds like a waffly way of justifying passing people who have dropped short of the standards that you set

out of interest what % actually fail?


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Ah, advanced age, now that will come back and bite you on the bum, however fit you may be now there is much that can and will go wrong and you will not be as fit as you think you will be, in fact the fitness you are doing now may well contribute to your future unfitness.
> 
> I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that many on here have actually got the experience of knowing their skills make up for what you say is their 'lack of conditioning'? Do you think we speak hypothetically? If so, you would be very wrong.


I'm aware of that, that's one of the reasons I'm doing ma, both to try and compensate for not having the reactions of a fighter jet pilot anymore and as a focus for my training. I accept that skills can make up for a short fall in general conditioning, but only to a certain point.
Fighting is one of the most physically demanding of human activities and there is a notable reality that the strongest fastest best co ordinated participent tends to win. If that isn't you then you have a real problem


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> The general gist is, that if you keep dropping the test standard to accommodate the weakness of your candidate, then your tests levels become a nice to have and not a level of achievement relative to the grade in question. I suppose its a commercial reality if you want them to keep attending.


My decision has nothing to do with "commercial reality". My program loses money. It always has. Unless something odd happens and I gain a lot of students, it probably always will (even then, it might still lose money, because I could put more into equipment and space).


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> err ,you don't think instructors who can correctly demonstrate a technique is a requirement of being an instructor?
> 
> to be honest it sounds like a waffly way of justifying passing people who have dropped short of the standards that you set
> 
> out of interest what % actually fail?


An instructor's job is to teach the technique. If they can manage to do so without being able to do it, that's fine. I've seen injured instructors use an existing student who had good technique perform the demonstration. What does it matter who shows them the technique, so long as they learn to use it properly? Now, if the instructor is physically capable of executing the technique, then they need to be able to do so. In other words, sloppy technique is not acceptable.

I don't recall ever failing a student on an entire test (I have made them re-test bits that needed clean-up). I have, however, declined to test students who were not ready. I decide when a student tests, and I don't test them until I know they are capable of the test. In my case, the test itself is partly a formality, partly to see how they perform under the stress of observation (not a big difference in a small program, though), and partly to let me see a lot of their work all at one viewing to watch for consistent problems. Mind you, I have a very small program, so I'm personally teaching every student, and they sometimes get accidental "private lessons" when they are the only one in class that day. With that level of interaction, it's pretty easy to know when someone will pass the test. If I had 60 students, I'd probably end up failing someone from time to time.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> err ,you don't think instructors who can correctly demonstrate a technique is a requirement of being an instructor?
> 
> to be honest it sounds like a waffly way of justifying passing people who have dropped short of the standards that you set
> 
> out of interest what % actually fail?


If I train someone to do a technique, and they show my instructor they can do it to his standards, why does it matter if I can do it or not? Clearly I was effective at teaching it.

As for the %...most instructors I know have a high % passing, simply because they have already evaluated the person beforehand, and done informal tests that they had to pass before being allowed to actually test.


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## Tez3 (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> there is a notable reality that the strongest fastest best co ordinated participent tends to win. If that isn't you then you have a real problem



Actually no, not really, the one who is willing to be the dirtiest, nastiest and most offensive 'fighter' tends to win. The winner is the one who wants to win the most (both in competitions and 'real life') the one who is willing to go that bit extra even into actually killing someone will be the winner. legalities aside this is how it really is, no good being the fittest, strongest, fastest if you aren't will to do anything to win because, trust me, I am, and I will win despite not being the fittest, strongest etc.


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## Balrog (Apr 4, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can't fight your opponent, at least you should have the ability to run away. IMO, running should be an important part of the MA training. If you can run faster than your opponent, none of his MA skill can apply on you. Your thought?


IMNSHO, running away is the first and best defense.


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Actually no, not really, the one who is willing to be the dirtiest, nastiest and most offensive 'fighter' tends to win. The winner is the one who wants to win the most (both in competitions and 'real life') the one who is willing to go that bit extra even into actually killing someone will be the winner. legalities aside this is how it really is, no good being the fittest, strongest, fastest if you aren't will to do anything to win because, trust me, I am, and I will win despite not being the fittest, strongest etc.



I'm sorry mate but that's not a realistic depiction, if you hold a substantial physical advantage then it matter not what your opponent does,
dirty tricks are no good if he can't hit you.
, have you ever fought someone so strong they throws you around like a rag doll, I have
. Alternatively someone might have all the will to win, but when their cardio has gone so has their strength and coordination


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> If I train someone to do a technique, and they show my instructor they can do it to his standards, why does it matter if I can do it or not? Clearly I was effective at teaching it.
> 
> As for the %...most instructors I know have a high % passing, simply because they have already evaluated the person beforehand, and done informal tests that they had to pass before being allowed to actually test.


there is a general norm of instructor being able to do the things they instuct in. The seems universal true apart from ma. Ever met a driving instructor who can't reverse round a corner, or a guitar instructors who can play a c cord. Perhaps a parachute instructor who can't jump out of a plane?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> there is a general norm of instructor being able to do the things they instuct in. The seems universal true apart from ma. Ever met a driving instructor who can't reverse round a corner, or a guitar instructors who can play a c cord. Perhaps a parachute instructor who can't jump out of a plane?


If they can teach me how to do it, then sure. I learned how to parallel park from someone who doesn't ever do it, but knows what has to be done so he told me, and I listened. I've had no issues with it since.


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## Tez3 (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm sorry mate but that's not a realistic depiction, if you hold a substantial physical advantage then it matter not what your opponent does,
> dirty tricks are no good if he can't hit you.
> , have you ever fought someone so strong they throws you around like a rag doll, I have
> . Alternatively someone might have all the will to win, but when their cardio has gone so has their strength and coordination



Sweetheart, one thing... I am not your mate. I have seen over the years more so called street fights than I care to think about, I have had to stop more of those fights than I want to think about (not alone luckily), I have been in riots, I have been attacked and had to take down people fighting so we could arrest them etc etc. At this point in my life ie retired it's actually quite boring.
I have seen and been in more violence that is possibly good for me, acid attacks on schoolgirls, Irishmen determined to kill Brits, big Fijian soldiers who want to take the world apart, Royal Marines fighting with squaddies, squaddies fighting with squaddies and civvies, the Black Watch, The Royal Irish, the Fusiliers, the Greenjackets, and the 'Kingos' all regiments that fight on a night out and they fight mean, trust me. I've also had the privilege of seeing them fight in circumstances that are appropriate for fighting. I've seen fat out of condition civvies beat up squaddies by the way, they don't run out of cardio because as I said before they make sure their one shot at winning is a very good shot, I've seen MMA fighters like that as well, they know they can't go the distance so they make sure they don't have to. Short fights. Promoters nightmare of course but the out of condition fighter's ideal.
Your experiences are just that yours, other people's experiences are just as valid even if they differ from yours.


----------



## Danny T (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm sorry mate but that's not a realistic depiction, if you hold a substantial physical advantage then it matter not what your opponent does,
> dirty tricks are no good if he can't hit you.
> , have you ever fought someone so strong they throws you around like a rag doll, I have
> . Alternatively someone might have all the will to win, but when their cardio has gone so has their strength and coordination


So the older, weaker person will always lose? Nah.

Yes I have.

I agree but that doesn't stop them from being sneaky, sly, and deceptive. Though they are very important there is more to fighting than size, strength, and cardio.


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## Tez3 (Apr 4, 2017)

Piece of info for you, Michael Bisping's brother was severely injured when another soldier put a pick axe into his head, that's the sort of fights we're talking about.


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Sweetheart, one thing... I am not your mate. I have seen over the years more so called street fights than I care to think about, I have had to stop more of those fights than I want to think about (not alone luckily), I have been in riots, I have been attacked and had to take down people fighting so we could arrest them etc etc. At this point in my life ie retired it's actually quite boring.
> I have seen and been in more violence that is possibly good for me, acid attacks on schoolgirls, Irishmen determined to kill Brits, big Fijian soldiers who want to take the world apart, Royal Marines fighting with squaddies, squaddies fighting with squaddies and civvies, the Black Watch, The Royal Irish, the Fusiliers, the Greenjackets, and the 'Kingos' all regiments that fight on a night out and they fight mean, trust me. I've also had the privilege of seeing them fight in circumstances that are appropriate for fighting. I've seen fat out of condition civvies beat up squaddies by the way, they don't run out of cardio because as I said before they make sure their one shot at winning is a very good shot, I've seen MMA fighters like that as well, they know they can't go the distance so they make sure they don't have to. Short fights. Promoters nightmare of course but the out of condition fighter's ideal.
> Your experiences are just that yours, other people's experiences are just as valid even if they differ from yours.


 you not my mate, but I'm your sweetheart?? Ok.
I'm not at all sure what most of your examples have to do with out discussion, perhaps you thought posting your CV would make up for the deficiences in your logic.

let's consider a footballer, all the skills in the world won't win a game if his cardio is poor, even David Beckham had to face that fact eventually. Your whole point seems to be if you can over welm your opponent with strength or  speed quickly , then your cardio doesn't matter. Yep that's true, but then you need more strength and or speed than your opponent. A lot of fat guys are very strong,
I'm beginning to think there is a bit of a collective fantasy going round, that if you practise your skill then that will see you through against a superior physical specimen. I think a lot of middle age men think they still have it, despite them neglecting their fitness.


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Danny T said:


> So the older, weaker person will always lose? Nah.
> 
> Yes I have.
> 
> I agree but that doesn't stop them from being sneaky, sly, and deceptive. Though they are very important there is more to fighting than size, strength, and cardio.


yes there is, there is technique and mindset. But if you have little strength, slow reaction and very poor cardio. Then you will need exemplary skill to offset the disadvantages


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## Tez3 (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes there is, there is technique and mindset. But if you have little strength, slow reaction and very poor cardio. Then you will need exemplary skill to offset the disadvantages



or a pickaxe.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm beginning to think there is a bit of a collective fantasy going round, that if you practise your skill then that will see you through against a superior physical specimen. I think a lot of middle age men think they still have it, despite them neglecting their fitness.



I think you are reading a whole lot into this that isn't there. You also appear to be focusing solely on the Sport side of things while negating traditional and RBSD side of things


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> or a pickaxe.


or a base ball bat or tyre lever, or a broken bottle, or a claw hammer all good if your fast enough to use them


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## Tez3 (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> or a base ball bat or tyre lever, or a broken bottle, or a claw hammer all good if your fast enough to use them



Personally I always get my retaliation in first.


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> I think you are reading a whole lot into this that isn't there. You also appear to be focusing solely on the Sport side of things while negating traditional and RBSD side of things


people keep telling me that they are not fit, but it doesn't matter in a fight as there techniques' are sound. If its a discuss on the multitude of non marshal benefits of doing a ma. I'm in agreement its very good for your mind and general well being , but there does need to be some element of reality as to its/ their short coming


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## Tez3 (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> but there does need to be some element of reality as to its/ their short coming



Ah but whose reality, those of people who have been doing martial arts for decades or  those of someone who is disparaging them?


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Ah but whose reality, those of people who have been doing martial arts for decades or  those of someone who is disparaging them?


I'm not disparaging them,( the arts)they are all, well nearly all, extremely effective fighting system. They all give mind and body health benefits , and well worth studying. The issue comes with not committing to a high level of fitness as part of your ma goals. As soon as you say I'm not very fit but my skills will see me through, then you are selling yourselves and your ma short.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> people keep telling me that they are not fit, but it doesn't matter in a fight as there techniques' are sound. If its a discuss on the multitude of non marshal benefits of doing a ma. I'm in agreement its very good for your mind and general well being , but there does need to be some element of reality as to its/ their short coming



This of course based on your universally accepted standard as to what fit is for a martial artist, not taking into account martial arts other than sports based, which you based on ones ability to run, skip and lift weights, that I assume you believe we all should be following based on your previous statements in your prior posts.

Not sure the AMA, BMA, ACE, ACSM or BASEM would agree, but then what the heck do they know about fitness standards.

Although it should be noted that by your standard you are simply not fit enough or capable of achieving the levels needed to compete in Mainland China Wushu competitions. Not that you would want to, but then their standard does not meet yours, or form their POV yours does not meet thiers

Don't get me wrong, I am happy this is working for you and I also agree there are a lot of people out there with ranks, both fit and unfit by the way, that do not deserve them and I do not think that being fit wearing an undeserved belt is any better than being unfit and wearing an undeserved belt. But imposing your standards on others and judging them based on those standards IMO is simply wrong.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 4, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> When did those become karaokes instead of grapevines?


lol.  I have no idea.  My first time hearing it was when I join the Jow Ga school I'm in now.  I grew up with it being called grapevines.

Call it grapevines and it looks more like what I do in class, with the exception that we go in one direction around the room, always looking in the same direction so we can get both side (left and right)


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> This of course based on your universally accepted standard as to what fit is for a martial artist, not taking into account martial arts other than sports based, which you based on ones ability to run, skip and lift weights, that I assume you believe we all should be following based on your previous statements in your prior posts.
> 
> Not sure the AMA, BMA, ACE, ACSM or BASEM would agree, but then what the heck do they know about fitness standards.
> 
> ...


 I didn't make them up, there are indexis of fitness standards achievable by certain age groups. For someone my age 60 press ups is excellent, 40 good , there are ones for running jumping pull up bench press etc etc

I know im not fit enough for marshal arts, that's why im out there everyday trying to get fitter, I'm chasing doing a mile and a half in ten mins, I'm at 11 .20 at the moment. I'm I'm trying to get my 45 press ups to 60, and my pull ups from a disheartening 9 to 15

you don't need to make them up, there all there


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> that looks pretty intense, might give that a go, I'm currently chasing a mile and a half in ten mins, which is the British arm test standard


 none of it is fast running.  It's probably best to keep the rectangle less than 10 yards in length (9 meters). The main areas of focus for this exercise is to concentrate on footwork, foot placements and  breathing. All of the motions can be found in fighting.  I think I have a video of me doing these exercises, if so I'll post it.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> I didn't make them up, there are indexis of fitness standards achievable by certain age groups. For someone my age 60 press ups is excellent, 40 good , there are ones for running jumping pull up bench press etc etc
> 
> I know im not fit enough for marshal arts, that's why im out there everyday trying to get fitter, I'm chasing doing a mile and a half in ten mins, I'm at 11 .20 at the moment. I'm I'm trying to get my 45 press ups to 60, and my pull ups from a disheartening 9 to 15
> 
> you don't need to make them up, there all there



Whose indexis of fitness standards achievable by certain age groups are you basing this on?


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Whose indexis of fitness standards achievable by certain age groups are you basing this on?


there hundreds of them,they are all much the same, try google, im using the one from the us army , as it runs from 20 to 60 , a lot stop at 50


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> there hundreds of them,they are all much the same, try google, im using the one from the us army , as it runs from 20 to 60 , a lot stop at 50



 I realize there are hundreds and I also realize hundreds do not all agree, that is why I am asking you which one you base this on. If you can provide your source great, if you cannot then we are back to your doing this based on personal experience therefore likely not applicable to everyone or anyone other than you for that matter.


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> I realize there are hundreds and I also realize hundreds do not all agree, that is why I am asking you which one you base this on. If you can provide your source great, if you cannot then we are back to your doing this based on personal experience therefore likely not applicable to everyone or anyone other than you for that matter.


I think they are all based on each other, and all pretty much the same, the us army use 2 miles, the British army 1 and and half, some use a bleep test

are you suggesting they vary massively, Il post one then you find one that's fundamental different


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> I think they are all based on each other, and all pretty much the same, the us army use 2 miles, the British army 1 and and half, some use a bleep test
> 
> are you suggesting they vary massively, Il post one then you find one that's fundamental different



Looking only at the US military, if the British standard has weightlifting and skipping then yes they do vary greatly

US Navy requires swimming and they base their running distances on shorter distance than the US Marines. And even then they apply a score to what you were able to accomplish so even they do not make a blanket that says if you cannot do this you're not in shape, which is what you appear to be doing. To get out of boot in the Navy you all you need to get a score of 60 out of a possible 100. Marines you need a 3rd class rating I believe not a 1st class or a 100% so you may be following the standards but you might also have decided that you need to be in that 100% to be in shape and that is simply not the case by Military standards.

But we have at least established that you are using Military standards which are different than civilian standards and all of them vary by age. So yes, they do differ, even within the standard itself based on the scores needed compared to those possible. You are attempting to make a blanket statement that if people in MA cannot meet the standard you arbitrarily chose for yourself that they are not in shape and that is not correct, not even by the standards you appear to be pushing

Using a military standard is great but it is applied to all in that branch of the service but are not the same as civilian standards. Add to that none of the US military standards I have seen say anything about being able your bench your body weight. I see pull-ups, running and push ups and even swimming (Navy) but not weightlifting and benching your body weight. Ran into the same stuff when I was testing for Police department jobs many years ago. Never once ever came across a weightlifting portion or skipping for that matter, as you posted earlier.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> there is a general norm of instructor being able to do the things they instuct in. The seems universal true apart from ma. Ever met a driving instructor who can't reverse round a corner, or a guitar instructors who can play a c cord. Perhaps a parachute instructor who can't jump out of a plane?


That's generally true because generally people who can actually do a thing are better at teaching it than those who cannot. However, that's not universal. If someone understands a basic front wrist throw (kote gaeshi) very well, and can do the one-handed version (an adaptation), but not the 2-handed version because they only have one hand, then they may be able to teach the 2-handed version to someone with both hands. If they can, then they can teach it. The goal of teaching is that the other person - the learner - can do it.

I wouldn't expect that to happen often. I've never had a chance to evaluate someone in that situation. But I've seen enough examples of instructors with temporary injuries, who were able to teach things they could not, themselves, do at that moment. Heck, I did some of that when I had knee surgery some years ago.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> you not my mate, but I'm your sweetheart?? Ok.
> I'm not at all sure what most of your examples have to do with out discussion, perhaps you thought posting your CV would make up for the deficiences in your logic.
> 
> let's consider a footballer, all the skills in the world won't win a game if his cardio is poor, even David Beckham had to face that fact eventually. Your whole point seems to be if you can over welm your opponent with strength or  speed quickly , then your cardio doesn't matter. Yep that's true, but then you need more strength and or speed than your opponent. A lot of fat guys are very strong,
> I'm beginning to think there is a bit of a collective fantasy going round, that if you practise your skill then that will see you through against a superior physical specimen. I think a lot of middle age men think they still have it, despite them neglecting their fitness.


A footballer has to play an extended amount of time to be effective. Someone dealing with an attack doesn't often have to fight for very long, so fitness is less of an issue in that conflict than in competition.


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Looking only at the US military, if the British standard has weightlifting and skipping then yes they do vary greatly
> 
> US Navy requires swimming and they base their running distances on shorter distance than the US Marines. And even then they apply a score to what you were able to accomplish so even they do not make a blanket that says if you cannot do this you're not in shape, which is what you appear to be doing. To get out of boot in the Navy you all you need to get a score of 60 out of a possible 100. Marines you need a 3rd class rating I believe not a 1st class or a 100% so you may be following the standards but you might also have decided that you need to be in that 100% to be in shape and that is simply not the case by Military standards.
> 
> ...


why do you believe that how many push up a 55 yo should be expected to do differs from army to civi.
I was ask to define unfit which I did with few examples. I'm not saying MAer are unfit if they cant do say 40push ups, I'm saying saying any 55 yo is unfit if they cant 40 push ups based on the army classifying 40 push ups as a good standard of fitness for a 55 yo. Nb I hate to be picky but pull up are weight lifting


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> A footballer has to play an extended amount of time to be effective. Someone dealing with an attack doesn't often have to fight for very long, so fitness is less of an issue in that conflict than in competition.


 how long does a fight last, excluding a knock out blow, generally till one or both run out of cardio, if you cant skip for 5 mins, you sure as hell cant fight for 5 mins


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## Tez3 (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> the British army 1



No, British army use 1.5 miles.

This is the fitness level needed to join the British Army. http://www.army.mod.uk/documents/general/ADSC_Fitness_Selection_Standards.pdf


Press ups and sit up for trained soldiers.

*Press Ups*
Number of press ups to be achieved in 2 minutes.
_Age_
_Under 30_ - Male 44 - Female 21
_30-34_ - Male 41 - Female 19
_35-39_ -Male 39 - Female 16
_40-44_ - Male 35 - Female 15
*Sit Ups*
Number of sit ups to be achieved in 2 minutes
Age
Under 30 - Male & Female 50
30-34 - Male & Female 46
35-39 - Male & Female 43
40-44 - Male & Female 37


Official Army videos for fitness prior to joining up. Army Fit Videos - YouTube


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> how long does a fight last, excluding a knock out blow, generally till one or both run out of cardio, if you cant skip for 5 mins, you sure as hell cant fight for 5 mins


Look for examples of people defending themselves. Even when it turns into a fight, it's exceedingly rare for it to last for more than a minute. Even those that last a minute are usually not the same intensity as a minute of heavy sparring. They usually last that long because there's an exchange of words, or the aggressor is sizing up and taking his time to engage between attempts.


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> No, British army use 1.5 miles.
> 
> This is the fitness level needed to join the British Army. http://www.army.mod.uk/documents/general/ADSC_Fitness_Selection_Standards.pdf
> 
> ...


I said one and a half. ?? So what's your point?


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Look for examples of people defending themselves. Even when it turns into a fight, it's exceedingly rare for it to last for more than a minute. Even those that last a minute are usually not the same intensity as a minute of heavy sparring. They usually last that long because there's an exchange of words, or the aggressor is sizing up and taking his time to engage between attempts.


yes


gpseymour said:


> Look for examples of people defending themselves. Even when it turns into a fight, it's exceedingly rare for it to last for more than a minute. Even those that last a minute are usually not the same intensity as a minute of heavy sparring. They usually last that long because there's an exchange of words, or the aggressor is sizing up and taking his time to engage between attempts.


yes
because they only have a minute of cardio. That's the very point I'm making, if you have 5 mins then you are off to a very good start


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## Tez3 (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> I said one and a half. ?? So what's your point?



Your English is very hard to read.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> why do you believe that how many push up a 55 yo should be expected to do differs from army to civi.
> I was ask to define unfit which I did with few examples. I'm not saying MAer are unfit if they cant do say 40push ups, I'm saying saying any 55 yo is unfit if they cant 40 push ups based on the army classifying 40 push ups as a good standard of fitness for a 55 yo. Nb I hate to be picky but pull up are weight lifting



why do you believe that how many push up a 55 year old should be expected to do differs from army to civilian? I don't know could be because by standards they do. Why do you believe they don't?

And your original statement, that started all this was not quite as forgiving. As for being picky I realize that. but there can be a world of difference between lift your own body weight and do a pull-up, without some sort of qualifying statement; pull-up, bench press, military press etc. they depend on different muscle groups

And out of all I typed you appeared to miss that those standards different within the military standards of the branches of the US military. They are basing their levels on score achieved by how many push ups, pull-ups they do and the score they need is 60% or better

General civilian heath standards but 50 to 59 year olds at an average of 9 to 17 push ups with >31 being excellent.

It is nice  you have your standards and that you are going to doggedly maintain that you feel they should apply to all and that any who don't meet them are not worthy of a belt rank, but bottom line is this is a standard you have chosen to apply to yourself that, commendable, does not apply to anyone but yourself, that is unless they person you are talking to is in the Military. It is a nice standard to shoot for but if one does not meet it does not mean they are fat out of shape and undeserving of a ranking in a marital art.

And your original statement was specifically aimed at martial artists and seemed pretty cut and dried..



jobo said:


> yes i see your point, but if you follow it through to it logical conclusion, you will end up with a class full of black belts that can hardly walk, there surely has to be a minimum fitness level associated with each level of grade .
> I see it differently I'm 58 and I used to be fat weak and slow , now I'm not because I took my marshal arts seriously, if I'm not fit enough to wear a belt with honour I don't want it given to me out of sympathy



But your last statement... now that we have run the gambit from footballers and military people.



jobo said:


> . I'm not saying MAer are unfit if they cant do say 40push ups, I'm saying saying any 55 yo is unfit if they cant 40 push ups based on the army classifying 40 push ups as a good standard of fitness for a 55 yo.



Seems to be more forgiving and less set in stone...but then your standard fitness level for a 55 year old does not match what is acceptable by civilian standards in the US which is 32 is excellent for 50 to 59, but 9 to 17 is average and still considered healthy.

Keep your standards, they are commendable, although I think somewhat on the high side, but applying those to everyone else, based on the standards out there which also differ, is simply not right..

I seriously doubt we will get anywhere with this, you are going to stick to your standards and I am going to stick to the actual standards set as applied to age group with in specific groups.

NOTE: I should add also that 1 might be able to do all the things you require, but have a horrible diet and although they may look good, they are not healthy at all. Then do they still deserve the belt rank? They could be a heart attack risk. Or maybe they achieved your standards thought other means like supplements (Steroids) again not healthy


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 4, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> No, British army use 1.5 miles.
> 
> This is the fitness level needed to join the British Army. http://www.army.mod.uk/documents/general/ADSC_Fitness_Selection_Standards.pdf
> 
> ...


Wow. I would have thought that that they the exercise would have to be done be less than 2 minutes.  Does the 2 minutes take into consideration the person being tired from previous exercises that were done?  Are all of the exercises done on the same day?


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 4, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> No, British army use 1.5 miles.
> 
> This is the fitness level needed to join the British Army. http://www.army.mod.uk/documents/general/ADSC_Fitness_Selection_Standards.pdf
> 
> ...



Interesting, so as it was suggested previously, one should be able to lift ones own body weight to be healthy.... so...how many 88lbs men are there in the RAC, Infantry, RLC, and REME. Because all they appear to have to be able to lift is 40Kg.

Frankly I thought the British solider was bigger


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## Tez3 (Apr 4, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Interesting, so as it was suggested previously, one should be able to lift ones own body weight to be healthy.... so...how many 88lbs men are there in the RAC, Infantry, RLC, and REME. Because all they appear to have to be able to lift is 40Kg.
> 
> Frankly I thought the British solider was bigger



Lifting body weight doesn't come in to it, it's a load of bollocks. doesn't matter how much you weigh it's how much you carry when you are tabbing or yomping if you are a Bootneck.


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## Tez3 (Apr 4, 2017)

35 years ago this week. This is yomping. To pass out as a Royal Marine Commando among other things you have to yomp for 30 miles carrying approx 120lbs. There's also a speed march as well as other interesting things to do. On operational tours they regularly carry up to 140lbs on patrol.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 4, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Lifting body weight doesn't come in to it, it's a load of bollocks. doesn't matter how much you weigh it's how much you carry when you are tabbing or yomping if you are a Bootneck.



On a bit of an associated side note. One of the hardest, most physically demanding martial arts classes I ever took was a Chen Taiji class, when my first shifu taught us Shandong province old style Chen, not your typical Taijiquan class by western standards. It was a 1.5 hour long class and the first 30 minutes was crawling. crab walking, races across floor running, crawling and crab walking and then there was the carry the other student on your back and walk across the floor exercise. The closest we got to a standard push up was the Hindu push up








Then class started, get into the Chen stance and stand there for a few minutes






Then forms and applications for the next 50 or so minutes, sometimes he ran long, low stances, kicks, jump kicks, punches, back fist. All striking was trained on focus pads and mits with fajin,

Oh and this thing in its variations (I could do 1 but never got to 2)










And after that class you were worn out.

That was an awesome class. When he started teaching this there were 2 classes and 60 students, by the time he finished teaching the form, there were only 6 of us left standing.

This was also the class I found out he was taking it easy on us as compared to the way he would teach in China because, as he said, most Americans would quit.... and even with taking it easy on us, most did quit. Oh and I also discovered that if a student messes up in China he would hit them if he so desired, mess up in America he just asks them to try it again.


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> why do you believe that how many push up a 55 year old should be expected to do differs from army to civilian? I don't know could be because by standards they do. Why do you believe they don't?
> 
> And your original statement, that started all this was not quite as forgiving. As for being picky I realize that. but there can be a world of difference between lift your own body weight and do a pull-up, without some sort of qualifying statement; pull-up, bench press, military press etc. they depend on different muscle groups
> 
> ...


the standards are different because one is the actual average of a population which is noted for being overweight having a bad diet and unfit, and the other is an average for fit active people who train , as maers should be defintion be fit active people who train,they should measure themselves to a higher standard than 250 lb wobberlers.

You seem to be determined to take the lowest standard as it makes you feel better about yourself rather than set yourself higher but achievable expectations'. That's rather the modern way.
you diet point is bogus, its hard bordering on the impossible to reach a high standard of fitness unless your diet is healthy,

I'm not trying to impose my standards, I'm not honestly that worried if you under achieved. But rather perplexed at marshal artists who are not trying to achieve their potential and strive for excellence. I see the same with my dojo, people remark how strong I am, like its some sort of gift rather than plain dedication that they could achieve. But I know im not strong, I'm just a lot stronger than they are. When I can do 15 pulls ups with a 20 kg weight I l think I'm strong, that is apparently one of the tests for the Russian special services, but quite away to go yet,
Why take up karate if you are only going to put in the same effort as you might for croquet

I see people who use steroids and and people who wont push them selves in rather the same light. That is to lazy to actual work at it and making excuses. Surely the founding principals are dedication and discipline


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Wow. I would have thought that that they the exercise would have to be done be less than 2 minutes.  Does the 2 minutes take into consideration the person being tired from previous exercises that were done?  Are all of the exercises done on the same day?


one straight after another I believe


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> But rather perplexed at marshal artists who are not trying to achieve their potential and strive for excellence.


There is no standard for excellence, in some school it's the color of the belt, in other schools it's how well someone performs a form.  Not every school is going to be the same.  For example: In this video we already completed  90 push ups (that's a light day for us)  by the time the conditioning was over we completed 180 push up.  A normal day is 240 push up plus all that other stuff.  These are our standards and it doesn't impress everyone.  But it works for us and it produces what we need for self-defense.  Other people may laugh at it (especially because of the music), but as simple as it looks it's quality training.  But it's quality training for our standards.  At some other school, this wouldn't pass as training because their standards are different.  It doesn't mean that the training at our school is useless. It just means that it's not the same standard.





When it comes to martial arts the standards are going to be set based on what the instructor thinks the students need.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> trying to achieve their potential and strive for excellence.


The best body condition is very important for "sport" MA. For my last tournament, I spent 3 months moving huge rock from place A to place B and then back. During that tournament, I knew I was the strongest person in the whole tournament hall. After that tournament, I started to train triathlon.


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> There is no standard for excellence, in some school it's the color of the belt, in other schools it's how well someone performs a form.  Not every school is going to be the same.  For example: In this video we already completed  90 push ups (that's a light day for us)  by the time the conditioning was over we completed 180 push up.  A normal day is 240 push up plus all that other stuff.  These are our standards and it doesn't impress everyone.  But it works for us and it produces what we need for self-defense.  Other people may laugh at it (especially because of the music), but as simple as it looks it's quality training.  But it's quality training for our standards.  At some other school, this wouldn't pass as training because their standards are different.  It doesn't mean that the training at our school is useless. It just means that it's not the same standard.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 its impressed me
but that's a good fitness routeen, I cant see anyone there who isn't trying to improve. Or is likely to say fitness doesn't matter coz I'm supper good The vid makes the point I made about how important cardio is. It definitely excellent in the pursuit. Of excellence.
nb id make you star guy do more explosive push ups, he will come on a lot faster


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The best body condition is very important for "sport" MA. For my last tournament, I spent 3 months moving huge rock from place A to place B and then back. During that tournament, I knew I was the strongest person in the whole tournament hall.


thank god, I thought I was a voice in the wildness here. It's just as important for street ma, perhaps more so as there are no weight divisions. Knowing your the strongest guy in the room gives you a different perspective


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> Knowing your the strongest guy in the room gives you a different perspective


One 250 lb Iran wrestler challenged me "arm wrestling" in the public. When there is no MA skill involved, strength will decide your winning or losing. I was told that guy later on went to challenge Royce Gracie.


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The best body condition is very important for "sport" MA. For my last tournament, I spent 3 months moving huge rock from place A to place B and then back. During that tournament, I knew I was the strongest person in the whole tournament hall. After that tournament, I started to train triathlon.


so here is a question for the kungfu boys and girls

when I did kungfu in the late 80s. The training was brutal , and I was supperdupper fit. I thought all ma were like that. Roll on 30 years and i visit the local karate schools and find the training is soft, the people are not very fit and I conclude all ma are like that. Is it the passage of time and people are less dedicated now or is it just that kungfuers, take physical conditioning more seriously?


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One 250 lb Iran wrestler challenged me "arm wrestling" in the public. When there is no MA skill involved, strength will decide your winning or losing.


there is a lot of techneque in arm wrestling


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> so here is a question for the kungfu boys and girls
> 
> when I did kungfu in the late 80s. The training was brutal , and I was supperdupper fit. I thought all ma were like that. Roll on 30 years and i visit the local karate schools and find the training is soft, the people are not very fit and I conclude all ma are like that. Is it the passage of time and people are less dedicated now or is it just that kungfuers, take physical conditioning more seriously?


May be people just get older. 

Back in the 70, if you open a MA school and you can't kick like Bruce Lee did, you won't have any students. I still remember I had spent a lot of time to train that Bruce Lee's famous 3 kicks combination - hook kick, inside crescent kick, spinning back kick. Back then, to be able to do a perfect floor split both forward and side way were just considered as "basic".


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> there is a lot of techneque in arm wrestling


It's called "body unification". The power comes from the body and not from the arm.


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be people just get older.
> 
> Back in the 70, if you open a MA school and you can't kick like Bruce Lee did, you won't have any students. I still remember I had spent a lot of time to train that Bruce Lee's famous 3 kicks combination - hook kick, inside crescent kick, spinning back kick. Back then, to be able to do a perfect floor split both forward and side way were just considered as "basic".


yes but there young people compared to me. It's seem that people want the skills but don't seem bothered about having the physical abilities to make them work.

I can just knock  the black belts over in 5 secs of sparring. They have all the skills but no ability


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> the standards are different because one is the actual average of a population which is noted for being overweight having a bad diet and unfit, and the other is an average for fit active people who train , as maers should be defintion be fit active people who train,they should measure themselves to a higher standard than 250 lb wobberlers.
> 
> You seem to be determined to take the lowest standard as it makes you feel better about yourself rather than set yourself higher but achievable expectations'. That's rather the modern way.
> you diet point is bogus, its hard bordering on the impossible to reach a high standard of fitness unless your diet is healthy,
> ...



Are you sure your not imposing your standard because you are awfully judgmental, condescending and insulting based on that arbitrary standard of yours. You also make some rather unfounded and grandiose assumption about a person if they do not agree with you.

You seem to want to make this personal but I am not making any standards for myself nor am I talking about myself as to what I can or cannot do, I am simply talking reality that is all. I have also quoted military standards that do not agree with what you are talking about, and so has tez by the way, but you seem to choose to ignore those since they are likely harder to get around. You then go for the civilian standard, which I only supplied because you seemed to think ti did not exist or were not differ so I posted them for you.

As to the diet, there are many who look like they are in top shape on horrible diets, sorry , but that is a fact, call it bogus if you like but frankly I simply believe you are denial about it and or know very little about proper diet

I said last time that it really did not make much sense to discuss this further with you since we will not agree you have your arbitrary standard which you apply to yourself and judge others by while I will stick science and with the facts


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> have all the skills but no ability


To develop skill is easy. To develop ability is hard. A technique won't work sometime is not because there is anything wrong with that technique, but there is no ability to support behind it.


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Are you sure your not imposing your standard because you are awfully judgmental, condescending and insulting based on that arbitrary standard of yours. You also make some rather unfounded and grandiose assumption about a person if they do not agree with you.
> 
> You seem to want to make this personal but I am not making any standards for myself nor am I talking about myself as to what I can or cannot do, I am simply talking reality that is all. I have also quoted military standards that do not agree with what you are talking about, and so has tez by the way, but you seem to choose to ignore those since they are likely harder to get around. You then go for the civilian standard, which I only supplied because you seemed to think ti did not exist or was not differ so I posted them for you.
> 
> ...


its a sport, sport is elitist, it favours the good over the mundane, it favours the dedicated over the u committed. That isn't judgemental its a simple fact. I want to be the best i can be, I set my standards off those of fit people. You want to use civi average's and are thus comparing yourself with donut eating monsters who can hardly walk. If your happy with that crack on


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To develop skill is easy. To develop ability is hard. A technique won't work sometime is not because there is anything wrong with that technique, but there is no ability to support behind it.


I agree whole heartedly, when people say a techneque won't work, they are usually wrong, its them that isn't good enough to use that skill


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## Buka (Apr 4, 2017)

There goes a guy who Will Rogers never met.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> its a sport, sport is elitist, it favours the good over the mundane, it favours the dedicated over the u committed. That isn't judgemental its a simple fact. I want to be the best i can be, I set my standards off those of fit people. You want to use civi average's and are thus comparing yourself with donut eating monsters who can hardly walk. If your happy with that crack on



Sport is elitist, really, I have know a few athletes and they were good, but not elitist, they tended to be rather self confident  and yet not arrogant and not in much need of adulation or have a desire to flash their ego, and not all MAist look at it as a sport, like I said there are traditionalist and reality based folks too.

 You still seem to need to make this personal...or, as I originally thought...you are a troll..like I said I am not comparing myself to anyone I am simply talking about facts and science, but you did at least prove my point, when you do not get full agreement or you cannot argue your way out, you get insulting and condescending....which again says troll....you won't be around long.....


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Sport is elitist, really, I have know a few athletes and they were good, but not elitist, they tended to be rather self confident  and yet not arrogant and not in much need of adulation or have a desire to flash their ego, and not all MAist look at it as a sport, like I said there are traditionalist and reality based folks too.
> 
> You still seem to need to make this personal...or, as I originally thought...you are a troll..like I said I am not comparing so if itsmyself to anyone I am simply talking about facts and science, but you did at least prove my point, when you do not get full agreement or you cannot argue your way out, you get insulting and condescending....which again says troll....you won't be around long.....


 so if its not a sport what is it, a hobby ? Like stamp collecting


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> so here is a question for the kungfu boys and girls
> 
> when I did kungfu in the late 80s. The training was brutal , and I was supperdupper fit. I thought all ma were like that. Roll on 30 years and i visit the local karate schools and find the training is soft, the people are not very fit and I conclude all ma are like that. Is it the passage of time and people are less dedicated now or is it just that kungfuers, take physical conditioning more seriously?


So, you visit a few schools, and conclude all are like that?


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> nb id make you star guy do more explosive push ups, he will come on a lot faster


Do you mean the guy in the blue pants?

We have one where we fall to the ground and are force to put up our guard as if someone is trying to punch or kick us while we are down.  This is done with resistance where the standing partner bears weight by pushing for 3 seconds.  We must hold the guard while the our partner increases the pressure.  The moment the standing partner relieves pressure, the guy on the ground has to get up.  For example the guy standing pushes on the arm of the guy on the ground.  The push has to be with enough force to where the guard almost collapses (which is why we hold for 3 seconds).






We do a lot of crazy stuff but we always try to get stronger, improve endurance (muscular and cardio), and push ourselves.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> so if its not a sport what is it, a hobby ? Like stamp collecting


As I suspected, you just don't get it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 4, 2017)

Buka said:


> There goes a guy who Will Rogers never met.


Subtly put, Buka.


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> so if its not a sport what is it, a hobby ? Like stamp collecting





gpseymour said:


> So, you visit a few schools, and conclude all are like that?


I concluded the ones round here were, I didn't really consider other continents


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> I concluded the ones round here were, I didn't really consider other continents


That seems to explain much.


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## jobo (Apr 4, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> As I suspected, you just don't get it.


I think i do, its a sport, just because you dont enter competition's does stop it being a sport


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> so here is a question for the kungfu boys and girls
> 
> when I did kungfu in the late 80s. The training was brutal , and I was supperdupper fit. I thought all ma were like that. Roll on 30 years and i visit the local karate schools and find the training is soft, the people are not very fit and I conclude all ma are like that. Is it the passage of time and people are less dedicated now or is it just that kungfuers, take physical conditioning more seriously?


Usually the traditional school go harder with training in terms of physically demanding with a focus on hard body conditioning, cardio, and strength building.  At least in the state where I live.  Most people who want "real martial art" like how they trained in the old days will often seek out a traditional school.

Modern martial arts schools train hard but it's not brutal training.  For example,  A non traditional school here will advertise how safe they are and how no one gets hurt or injured.   Traditional Kung fu let prospective student know that they will get bruises, not because of an accident, but because we willingly caused the bruises as part of traditional conditioning.

For us, hard body conditioning is almost a safety requirement because without it, our blocking techniques are very painful to the unconditioned arm.  Pulled muscles from doing some crazy kick, normal.  Hurt hips, minor back injury normal with certain techniques.   We have ways for students to train safety and minimize injury, but for us, it's a natural part of training.  We just try to keep injuries minor.

Some modern schools (the ones that are overly focused on safety) have injuries too, but those are usually from accidents and not from students intentionally damaging themselves.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 4, 2017)

Buka said:


> There goes a guy who Will Rogers never met.


lol.  what???  How did you come up with a statement like that? too funny


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## kuniggety (Apr 4, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> US Navy requires swimming and they base their running distances on shorter distance than the US Marines. And even then they apply a score to what you were able to accomplish so even they do not make a blanket that says if you cannot do this you're not in shape, which is what you appear to be doing. To get out of boot in the Navy you all you need to get a score of 60 out of a possible 100. Marines you need a 3rd class rating I believe not a 1st class or a 100% so you may be following the standards but you might also have decided that you need to be in that 100% to be in shape and that is simply not the case by Military standards.
> .



Most of the US services' fitness tests are not really designed to test fitness. They're force shaping tools. They're arbitrary standards set to create a minimum standard to help reduce health cost issues and create an extra point for giving people the boot for force reduction purposes. For those jobs within the services  that actually have fitness demands, they have their own fitness standards.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> just because you dont enter competition's does stop it being a sport


Agree! Sport is the only format that you can develop dependable MA skill. When your opponent tries to punch at your head 100 times and you can block 99 of his punches, you are using "sport" method to train. Your ability to block a head punch is 99%. A 99% MA skill is better than a 80% MA skill. Only sport can give you a measurement like that.

In "sport", you can use safe rules to train unsafe MA skill. No training partner will let you to poke his eye balls out and still willing be your training partner next day.


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## kuniggety (Apr 5, 2017)

About sums it up.


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## Jenna (Apr 5, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes but there young people compared to me. It's seem that people want the skills but don't seem bothered about having the physical abilities to make them work.
> 
> I can just knock  the black belts over in 5 secs of sparring. They have all the skills but no ability


You do not speak with either the language or the wisdom of some one who is 57..


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## jobo (Apr 5, 2017)

Jenna said:


> You do not speak with either the language or the wisdom of some one who is 57..


just as well I'm 58 next week


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## Buka (Apr 5, 2017)

Happy birthday, bro.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 5, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! Sport is the only format that you can develop dependable MA skill. When your opponent tries to punch at your head 100 times and you can block 99 of his punches, you are using "sport" method to train. Your ability to block a head punch is 99%. A 99% MA skill is better than a 80% MA skill. Only sport can give you a measurement like that.
> 
> In "sport", you can use safe rules to train unsafe MA skill. No training partner will let you to poke his eye balls out and still willing be your training partner next day.


Then you and I define "sport" differently.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 5, 2017)

jobo said:


> so if its not a sport what is it, a hobby ? Like stamp collecting



So you only see things in black and white then, 1 and 0s if it is not sport its a hobby...ok then you must think think things like police/military sanda or military combative are similar to stamp collecting ...interesting...had enough of you, you have become tiresome....let me leave you with this, you should read it... because it applies.



> *From the book - Zen in the Martial Arts by Joe Hyams*
> 
> *Chapter Title “Do Not Disturb”*
> 
> ...



You want to waste my time and I will no longer allow it.


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## jobo (Apr 5, 2017)

I've read zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance.
sport is the name for something of an athletic nature done for fun. It doesn't need to be competative to be a sport , that usually referred to as competative sport . So rock climbing is a sport, as it lone fell running, weight training etc.
if your doing it for work, its ether professional sport or if its just a skill required for employment like the examples you gave then it would be a vocational skill or ability
things of a non athletic nature done for fun are refered to as hobbies, stamp collecting, fishing,. However both stamp collecting and ma could correctly be call past times


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 5, 2017)

对牛弹琴
Duìniú tánqín
To play the lute to a cow



> In ancient times, there lived a musician named Gong Mingyi. He was a master of the Zheng, a plucked string instrument. Unfortunately, his rash behavior often led him astray. One day, he saw a cow grazing in a field near his house. He was inspired by the scene and ran outside to play a tune for the cow. Gong Mingyi played beautifully, finding himself intoxicated by the music. But the cow paid no heed to the elegant sounds, simply focusing its attention on eating the grass. Gong Mingyi was surprised at this and could not comprehend the cow’s flippant indifference. He felt that since his performance had been masterful, this means that the cow neither understood nor appreciated his elegant music!


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## Tez3 (Apr 5, 2017)

jobo said:


> However both stamp collecting and ma could correctly be call past times



Absolutely not in any way can mothers be past times.


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## jobo (Apr 5, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Absolutely not in any way can mothers be past times.


I pass quite a lot of time with mine? Seems to fit the general defintion?


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 5, 2017)

jobo said:


> I pass quite a lot of time with mine? Seems to fit the general defintion?


lol.. And so it begins.


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## Tez3 (Apr 5, 2017)

jobo said:


> I pass quite a lot of time with mine? Seems to fit the general defintion?



Mine died more than a decade ago.


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## jobo (Apr 5, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Mine died more than a decade ago.


I'm sorry to hear that


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## Tez3 (Apr 5, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm sorry to hear that



She did well, she was nearly ninety and had seen all her family destroyed during the war but was as they say a game old bird.  ( not sure Americans will get that )


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## jobo (Apr 5, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> She did well, she was nearly ninety and had seen all her family destroyed during the war but was as they say a game old bird.  ( not sure Americans will get that )


mines 85, trying to spend the time now, if you know what i mean


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Then you and I define "sport" differently.


This is how I use "sport" to train my MA skill.

1. If you can punch my head within 20 punches, you win that round. Otherwise I win that round.
2. If you can kick my body within 20 kicks, you win that round. Otherwise I win that round.
3. If I can take you down by "single leg" within 30 second, I win that round. Otherwise you win that round.
4. If I can put my hand on your throat within 30 punches, I win that round. Otherwise you win that round .
5. ...

Test for 15 rounds and then decide the winner.

1 and 2 can be used to test "defense skill". 3 and 4 can be used to test "offense skill". The "you can" and "I can" can be reversed in every test.

This training is different from the regular sparring/wrestling. Each round, you only test one and only one particular MA skill. Some day I just want to test one particular MA skill 100 rounds and nothing else.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 5, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> She did well, she was nearly ninety and had seen all her family destroyed during the war but was as they say a game old bird.  ( not sure Americans will get that )


I do. Though, it's awfully close to calling her a gamey old bird, which wouldn't be respectful, at all.


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## Tez3 (Apr 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I do. Though, it's awfully close to calling her a gamey old bird, which wouldn't be respectful, at all.



A chap is out hunting on day in the words and he comes across a beautiful young woman, 'Are you game?' he asks. 'Oh yes' she replies in a sexy voice. So he shoots her..........


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## Steve (Apr 10, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> A chap is out hunting on day in the words and he comes across a beautiful young woman, 'Are you game?' he asks. 'Oh yes' she replies in a sexy voice. So he shoots her..........


That's funny.


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## drop bear (Apr 10, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Sport is elitist, really, I have know a few athletes and they were good, but not elitist, they tended to be rather self confident  and yet not arrogant and not in much need of adulation or have a desire to flash their ego, and not all MAist look at it as a sport, like I said there are traditionalist and reality based folks too.
> 
> You still seem to need to make this personal...or, as I originally thought...you are a troll..like I said I am not comparing myself to anyone I am simply talking about facts and science, but you did at least prove my point, when you do not get full agreement or you cannot argue your way out, you get insulting and condescending....which again says troll....you won't be around long.....



Um.... calling someone a troll is allso insulting. 

Which makes your post kind of ironic.


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## drop bear (Apr 10, 2017)

jobo said:


> so here is a question for the kungfu boys and girls
> 
> when I did kungfu in the late 80s. The training was brutal , and I was supperdupper fit. I thought all ma were like that. Roll on 30 years and i visit the local karate schools and find the training is soft, the people are not very fit and I conclude all ma are like that. Is it the passage of time and people are less dedicated now or is it just that kungfuers, take physical conditioning more seriously?



It depends. 

There is a saying in our gym.

You cant support a school with just fighters.


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## jobo (Apr 10, 2017)

drop bear said:


> It depends.
> 
> There is a saying in our gym.
> 
> You cant support a school with just fighters.


yea I can see that, commercial considerations' and all., but my earlier post that caused a few,folks to get upset,concerned the point that you shouldn't, to my mind, be able to reach elevated grades unless your fitness was at a good level. . It seems that if your fit enough to bumble through the kata that is sufficient


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## jobo (Apr 10, 2017)

jobo said:


> yea I can see that, commercial considerations' and all., but my earlier post that caused a few,folks to get upset,concerned the point that you shouldn't, to my mind, be able to reach elevated grades unless your fitness was at a good level. . It seems that if your fit enough to bumble through the kata that is sufficient



nb there isn't a fitness section so Il throw it in here. I got me mile and a half run down to 10.30 . I'm really chuffed, when I started around Christmas, it was taking me 5mins to run a measly half mile and then collapse. Just another 30 seconds to go and Il reward my self with some new running shoes


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## kuniggety (Apr 10, 2017)

jobo said:


> nb there isn't a fitness section so Il throw it in here. I got me mile and a half run down to 10.30 . I'm really chuffed, when I started around Christmas, it was taking me 5mins to run a measly half mile and then collapse. Just another 30 seconds to go and Il reward my self with some new running shoes



That's pretty good for an old man


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## jobo (Apr 10, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> That's pretty good for an old man


cheers, but I've got another week till I'm old


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## Paul_D (Apr 10, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! Sport is the only format that you can develop dependable MA skill.


So before Maryial Arts contained any sporting elements, no ones skills were dependable?


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## drop bear (Apr 10, 2017)

jobo said:


> yea I can see that, commercial considerations' and all., but my earlier post that caused a few,folks to get upset,concerned the point that you shouldn't, to my mind, be able to reach elevated grades unless your fitness was at a good level. . It seems that if your fit enough to bumble through the kata that is sufficient



Yeah.  But then what do you do with your soccer mum who has been coming once a week for the last ten years?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 11, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> So before Maryial Arts contained any sporting elements, no ones skills were dependable?


- If you have taken your opponent down 100 times, when you spar with him the 101th round, the chance that you can still take him down will be high.
- If your opponent throws 100 punches at you and you are still standing, when he throw his 101th punch at you, the chance that you can still standing will be high.
- ...

That's test result from sport will give you confidence. Confidence will give courage, and courage will help your skill to work better.

better score -> confidence -> courage -> better result next time


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## jobo (Apr 11, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Yeah.  But then what do you do with your soccer mum who has been coming once a week for the last ten years?


you spend 10 yeas slowly building their fitness so that by the time they are ready for a black best test they are a killing machine


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## Paul_D (Apr 11, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - If you have taken your opponent down 100 times, when you spar with him the 101th round, the chance that you can still take him down will be high.
> - If your opponent throws 100 punches at you and you are still standing, when he throw his 101th punch at you, the chance that you can still standing will be high.
> - ...
> 
> ...


I am not denying that, but it doesn't answer my question.  You asserted that "Sport is the only format that you can develop dependable MA skill."  So my question remains; before martial arts were sports, does that mean no ones MA skills were dependable?


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## drop bear (Apr 11, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I am not denying that, but it doesn't answer my question.  You asserted that "Sport is the only format that you can develop dependable MA skill."  So my question remains; before martial arts were sports, does that mean no ones MA skills were dependable?


 
Which are these pre sports martial arts?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 11, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I am not denying that, but it doesn't answer my question.  You asserted that "Sport is the only format that you can develop dependable MA skill."  So my question remains; before martial arts were sports, does that mean no ones MA skills were dependable?


Without using the "sport" format, how will you be able to test your MA skill?


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## Steve (Apr 11, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Without using the "sport" format, how will you be able to test your MA skill?


Agreed, unless you're a proper villain, a cop or a soldier.  And even then, it depends on your specialty.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 11, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I am not denying that, but it doesn't answer my question.  You asserted that "Sport is the only format that you can develop dependable MA skill."  So my question remains; before martial arts were sports, does that mean no ones MA skills were dependable?


I get so frustrated on this site sometimes...so many arguments are just two people having different meanings for the same word (sport, SD, bodybuilding, black belt, even exersice at one point FGS). 
He's referring simply to there being a competitive atmosphere/testing your ability against resistance. Martial arts never lacked a competitive part as a whole, since humanity as a whole is competitive, before MA even existed. Not referring to it as a sport with spectators/set rules/competition like a cage match or pankration.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 11, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> having different meanings for the same word (sport, SD, ...


I have seen a guy who has trained Chinese wrestling for 5 years. This guy has gone through perfect partner training. But on the mat, none of his throwing techniques worked on his opponent. So after 5 years of Chinese wresting training, he had develop nothing. What's wrong in his example?

IMO, he could only use his throwing skill when his opponent gave him that opportunity. But in "sport", his opponent didn't give him that opportunity and he didn't know how to create the opportunity to make his throwing techniques work.


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## jobo (Apr 11, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Without using the "sport" format, how will you be able to test your MA skill?


you correct you cant, I suspect a lot of people with years of trained ng behind them have suddenly  found that their skills don't work in real time, or that an elbow to the chin is not the knock out blow they thought it might be


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 11, 2017)

jobo said:


> that an elbow to the chin is not the knock out blow they thought it might be


This is why I lose interest in the striking art many years ago. 

1. Can I truly be able to knock down a 200 lb guy? How can I prove it? I can't. 
2. Can I take down a 200 lb guy? I know I can, and I can prove it. 

What's the difference here? To do 

- 1, I have to hurt my opponent. 
- 2, I don't have to hurt my opponent (because it's sport).


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## jobo (Apr 11, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why I lose interest in the striking art many years ago.
> 
> 1. Can I truly be able to knock down a 200 lb guy? How can I prove it? I can't.
> 2. Can I take down a 200 lb guy? I know I can, and I can prove it.
> ...


I thought you were a kung fu man ?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 11, 2017)

jobo said:


> I thought you were a kung fu man ?


Kung Fu men use sport too. Shuai-Chiao (Chinese wrestling), Sanda, Sanshou, are all "sport".


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## Steve (Apr 11, 2017)

jobo said:


> you correct you cant, I suspect a lot of people with years of trained ng behind them have suddenly  found that their skills don't work in real time, or that an elbow to the chin is not the knock out blow they thought it might be


There are people who are in violent professions.    Most are not.


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## jobo (Apr 11, 2017)

Steve said:


> There are people who are in violent professions.    Most are not.


from my limited experience, its the conversion of drill to real time movement that is the biggest issue to non sports types. Some folk can move with great speed and you follow your moves to find there not there any more.
we were doing a drill where you move to the outside of a right punch, which is difficult in its self at real speed, then took three steps to get behind them , before wrapping you left arm round their neck. It's 3 moves and and 2 second to long. I showed a more effective move, where you step out side the punch and then close line them with your right arm, two movement 2seconds to exicute, but its not in the kata


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## Paul_D (Apr 12, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> I get so frustrated on this site sometimes...so many arguments are just two people having different meanings for the same word (sport, SD, bodybuilding, black belt, even exersice at one point FGS).
> He's referring simply to there being a competitive atmosphere/testing your ability against resistance. Martial arts never lacked a competitive part as a whole, since humanity as a whole is competitive, before MA even existed. Not referring to it as a sport with spectators/set rules/competition like a cage match or pankration.


I get so frustrated too, as people see questions as challenges.  I simply asked the question to seek clarification.  Nothing more.


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## Paul_D (Apr 12, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Without using the "sport" format, how will you be able to test your MA skill?


I am not referring to me.  I am referring to ancient warriors who used their skills on the battlefield when martial arts where "martial" and not sporting.

I am also referring to modern self protection instructor.  Let us take purely as an example Lee Morrison (Urban Combatives), the swivel punch that he learnt from Charlie Nelson he has never practice that technique in a sports arena.  He has used that technique in a live situation.   






According to your statement that should not be possible, as _"Sport is the only format that you can develop dependable MA skill."  _So either your statement is not correct or you are using the term sport differently to most people. I am trying to understand which it is?


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## jobo (Apr 12, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I am not referring to me.  I am referring to ancient warriors who used their skills on the battlefield when martial arts where "martial" and not sporting.
> 
> I am also referring to modern self protection instructor.  Let us take purely as an example Lee Morrison (Urban Combatives), the swivel punch that he learnt from Charlie Nelson he has never practice that technique in a sports arena.  He has used that technique in a live situation.
> 
> ...


using them on a battle field is the ultimate test, but they didn't know if they were effective till the battle ended or indeed they died. That's much the same as taking your techneque in to a pub brawl, its a good test but a bit late to realise you needed more work on your block. " sports" fighting is what you do to test your techneque before someone is trying to kill you/ hit you with a broken bottle


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## Paul_D (Apr 12, 2017)

jobo said:


> " sports" fighting is what you do to test your techneque before someone is trying to kill you/ hit you with a broken bottle


That’s certainly _one_ way of doing it yes.


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## Steve (Apr 12, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I am not referring to me.  I am referring to ancient warriors who used their skills on the battlefield when martial arts where "martial" and not sporting.
> 
> I am also referring to modern self protection instructor.  Let us take purely as an example Lee Morrison (Urban Combatives), the swivel punch that he learnt from Charlie Nelson he has never practice that technique in a sports arena.  He has used that technique in a live situation.
> 
> ...


Ancient warriors often engaged in sport, and in many warrior cultures, sports were an important part of developing the warrior spirit in youth.  It's not like modern martial artists invented sport. 

Just to clarify my own position on this.  I think that sports and competition are the best, most accessible way to develop real skill for most people today.   But I also don't think your false dichotomy is on point, either.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 12, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I am not referring to me.  I am referring to ancient warriors who used their skills on the battlefield when martial arts where "martial" and not sporting.
> 
> I am also referring to modern self protection instructor.  Let us take purely as an example Lee Morrison (Urban Combatives), the swivel punch that he learnt from Charlie Nelson he has never practice that technique in a sports arena.  He has used that technique in a live situation.
> 
> ...


I read "_Swivel punch_" and my brain cut responded




People market the heck out of catch phrases for things that have been around for a long time.  I'm pretty sure the "Swivel punch" is nothing new and more importantly it probably came out the way it did because of the limited space inside of an elevator, which influence how he needed to generate power.  He even says as much that it just came out and it's not something he ever trained.  Gotta love marketing.


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## Paul_D (Apr 12, 2017)

Steve said:


> Ancient warriors often engaged in sport


They did yes, it is indeed _one_ way of developing dependable skills.


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## Paul_D (Apr 12, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm pretty sure the "Swivel punch" is nothing new


I'm pretty sure of that too, but then I wasn't aware that anyone was claiming it was.

I don't think he's he's suggesting it just came out without ever being trained though, which is how you appear to have taken it.  I think he means he didn't plan to use the technique, as it wouldn't normally be his first choice.


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## drop bear (Apr 12, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> They did yes, it is indeed _one_ way of developing dependable skills.



So you are talking about even ancienter warriors?


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## Steve (Apr 12, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> They did yes, it is indeed _one_ way of developing dependable skills.


The key though isn't whether sport is one way to develop skills.  The key is that not doing skills is not one way to develop skills.   Mlat people do not have a venue for applying skills iutside of sport.


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## drop bear (Apr 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I am also referring to modern self protection instructor. Let us take purely as an example Lee Morrison (Urban Combatives), the swivel punch that he learnt from Charlie Nelson he has never practice that technique in a sports arena. He has used that technique in a live situation.



Charlie nelson.
this charlie nelson?
charlienelson

"This is how I came to learn a unique fighting method that no one else in the U.S. teaches.
This method is based on Mongolian wrestling techniques intended to maim or cripple. Combined with other methods that I studied through out the years, these techniques form a complete system. My method combines boxing, jiu-jitsu, karate, principles of Tai-Chi and Aikido, and dirty fighting."

Which is of course based on a sport.






mogolian rock is pretty cool by the way.


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## Paul_D (Apr 13, 2017)

Steve said:


> The key though isn't whether sport is one way to develop skills.  The key is that not doing skills is not one way to develop skills.   Mlat people do not have a venue for applying skills iutside of sport.


I agree with everything you are saying.  But the OP said sport was the _only_ way dependable skill's can be developed.


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## Paul_D (Apr 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Which is of course based on a sport.


Yes, sport is indeed _one_ way to develop dependable skills.  No one is denying that.


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## jobo (Apr 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Yes, sport is indeed _one_ way to develop dependable skills.  No one is denying that.


are you going to keep playing this silly game or put your cards on the table and suggest some non sports ways of testing you techniques' before your safety depends on it


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> But the OP said sport was the _only_ way dependable skill's can be developed.


What's the other way?


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## Paul_D (Apr 13, 2017)

jobo said:


> are you going to .... put your cards on the table and suggest some non sports ways of testing you techniques' before your safety depends on it


Firstly, how are you defining sport?


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## jobo (Apr 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Firstly, how are you defining sport?


an athletic activerty done for enjoyment and or physical betterment

competative sport, an athletic activerty done for enjoyment ,physical betterment and the joy of winning

professional sport an athletic activerty done primarily for money and the enjoyment of spectators who are prepared to pay


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## Paul_D (Apr 13, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's the other way?


First I need to understand how you are using the term sport. Which is why I asked you to clarify.  To me sport means people competing against each for the entertainment of a crowd/audience.  I may very well agree with what you said, but until I know exactly what you mean I can't agree or disagree (and then explain why I disagree, if indeed I do).


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## Paul_D (Apr 13, 2017)

jobo said:


> an athletic activerty done for enjoyment and or physical betterment


To me sport suggestions competition against others.  Hence why I sought calcification.  As you are defining it as an activity done for psychical betterment, then we would be in agreement.


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## jobo (Apr 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> To me sport suggestions competition against others.  Hence why I sought calcification.  As you are defining it as an activity done for psychical betterment, then we would be in agreement.


I modified my post to include a defintion of the competative element


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## Paul_D (Apr 13, 2017)

jobo said:


> I modified my post to include a defintion of the competative element


Which is fine.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> First I need to understand how you are using the term sport. Which is why I asked you to clarify.  To me sport means people competing against each for the entertainment of a crowd/audience.  I may very well agree with what you said, but until I know exactly what you mean I can't agree or disagree (and then explain why I disagree, if indeed I do).


Sport is a "game" that's set up between 2 persons to agree with a certain rule set.

For example,

Today, we can play a game. If the first 20 punches that you throw at me can hit my head, you win that round. Otherwise I win that round. We can try this for 15 rounds. Whoever wins more than 7 rounds will be the winner today. In this game, I can test my defense skill and you can test your offense skill.

Next day, we can play the same game again, or we can play a different game such as if I can take you down within 30 seconds, I win that round. Otherwise, you win that round. Again, try this for 15 rounds. Record the result and decide the winner for that day. In this game, I can test my offense skill and you can test your defense skill.


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## Paul_D (Apr 13, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Sport is a "game" that's set up between 2 persons to agree with a certain rule set.
> 
> For example,
> 
> ...


So competing against someone in a "game" with an agreed set of rules, and a an agreed definition of "winner" is the _only_ way to develop dependable martial skill?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> So competing against someone in a "game" with an agreed set of rules, and a an agreed definition of "winner" is the _only_ way to develop dependable martial skill?


If I can

- block 10,000 punches that my opponent throws at my head with "rhino guard", I will know that my "rhino guard" is good.
- take my opponent down by single leg 10,000 times, I will know that my "single leg" is good.

I truly don't know any other way to build up my self-confidence for my MA skill. May be you can tell me a different way that I can try.

Here is an example of my "rhino guard" game.


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## Paul_D (Apr 13, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If I can
> 
> - block 10,000 punches that my opponent throws at my head with "rhino guard", I will know that my "rhino guard" is good.
> - take my opponent down by single leg 10,000 times, I will know that my "single leg" is good.
> ...


If you worked as a nightclub doorman for 10 years do you think you would develop some dependable martial skill?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> If you worked as a nightclub doorman for 10 years do you think you would develop some dependable martial skill?


I wouldn't know. I don't have that kind of experience myself. I can only speak for what I know. I can't speak for what I don't know.

IMO, defense skill such as "rhino guard" cannot be used without proper "testing". A nightclub doorman doesn't have to deal with head punches everyday.


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## Paul_D (Apr 13, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I wouldn't know. I don't have that kind of experience myself. I can only speak for what I know. I can't speak for what I don't know.


Neither have I, but as we know other people have done it, it would seem to be one non sporting way to developing dependable skill.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Neither have I, but as we know other people have done it, it would seem to be one non sporting way to developing dependable skill.


It's chicken and egg issue.

1. Do you have MA skill so you get doorman job, or
2. Do you get doorman job so you can develop MA skill?

IMO, 1 is more true than 2. The question is "How do you develop your MA skill before you get your doorman job?"


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## Paul_D (Apr 13, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I can't speak for what I don't know.
> .


But that's exactly what you did by stating that sport is the _only_ way to develop dependable skill.   What you should have said was sport is the only way _I_ know of developing dependable skill.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> But that's exactly what you did by stating that sport is the _only_ way to develop dependable skill.   What you should have said was sport is the only way _I_ know of developing dependable skill.


All my posts are my personal opinions only. I don't have to add "This is only my personal opinion" on each and every single post that I have put up, do I?

My post -> my opinion -> I express what I know


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 13, 2017)

So how do you develop your MA skill "before" you take your doorman job?


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## Paul_D (Apr 13, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> All my posts are my personal opinions only. I don't have to add "This is only my personal opinion" on each and every single post that I have put up, do I?


You don't have to no, of course not.   But when phrasing statements to suggest 'This way is the only way that works' thereby implying that other people's methods do not work (even though by your own admission you know nothing of others people's methods) it would avoid confusion (and people challenging your statement when they disagree) if you did.


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## drop bear (Apr 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> If you worked as a nightclub doorman for 10 years do you think you would develop some dependable martial skill?



You would be suprised. And I did it for 20.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You would be suprised. And I did it for 20.


Have you already developed MA skill before you take that job, or do you use that job to develop your MA skill?


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## jobo (Apr 13, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Have you already developed MA skill before you take that job, or do you use that job to develop your MA skill?


he had 20 drunks a night to practise on, their like slow moving punch bags, but with slower reaction and less ballance


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 14, 2017)

never mind, it is not worth it, post deleted


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## drop bear (Apr 14, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Have you already developed MA skill before you take that job, or do you use that job to develop your MA skill?



A bit of both.


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