# Culture in FMA



## loki09789 (Apr 27, 2004)

I know that in Japan, China, Korea (the big three of asian trad arts) it is clearly explained in most cases what the philosophical/cultural structure that a particular school is developed from or is being used to teach (ex.  Shaolin practice as an exercise in Buddhism as well as martial skill)...

With the diversity in FMA, what are some of the major cultural, religious/philosophical structures that these arts have either developed from or are used to teach/reinforce.

For example, I know that tribal arts are used as part of the rites of passage from child to man as well as martial technical/tactical skill, what I am looking for is the subtleties of these cultures and how it influences the art.


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## arnisandyz (Apr 27, 2004)

I'll try one...

it has been told to me that the Catholic Religion has some role in some of the makeup of the arts that developed during the Spanish Occupation, with relationships drawn from the Holy Trinity (Father, Son , Holy Ghost) and Triagulation of footwork and movements.  Ever notice how many things are done in threes? Can't tell you if this is true or good imagination, but I've heard this before.


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## OULobo (Apr 28, 2004)

I concur. Of all the FMAs I have been exposed to and researched, most are heavily christian and even Catholic influenced, even if only in a hybrid version of mysticism that is akin to Santeria or Voodoo. This seems to be because the other arts that have no, little or less christian influence are fairly inaccessable due to instability, rivalry, location and relative poverty. Visayan/Cebuano and Luzan/Manillan arts are easier to access because of the ease of cultural interaction due to urban concentration/international commerce, transport infrastructure, influx of immigrants and recent American occupation. I have yet to see any art in the FMAs that hasn't had a significant influence from fairly recent foreign interaction (be it Spanish swordsmanship, WWII lessons learned, Chinese kung-fu, Japanese commercial arts or muslim/malay cross-pollenation), despite the rather remote and inaccessable areas that many tribes of the Philippines still call home. That is not to say that primitive less western influenced systems didn't or don't exist, just that they are still restrained by the same bonds that kept them from being influenced earlier (location, isolationist society or unwillingness to interact). Consequently, most warrior arts that come from recently (within the past decade or two) discovered uncivilized tribes are, as expected, rather primitive, unstructured and, by modern standards, ineffectual. 

Most warrior arts find a religious connotation innately ingrained. This is, in my opinion, because of the close relationship between religion and war through death more than through any code of ethics. Particular examples of cultural or societal influence could be examined easily in the moro tribes (T'Boli, Maranao, Maguindinan) of the southern Plhilippines (Basilan, Palawan, Moloccas, Mindanao). In the recent past the kris and barong were part of daily society as a  symbol of social rank. Small versions of the kris were made to begin the training of the children so that they could evolve into the art with their blade in hand. Another way of incorporating weapons into the culture was as a trophy or talisman. The talisman issue is best illustrated by the keris, kudi and kujang of Indonesia/Malaysia, which I can discuss later if requested. As a trophy, the weapons of rival tribes served as a symbol of victory and martial prowess, along with being a valuble resource in metal and workmanship to the tribe. The northern tribes (Ifugao, Igorot, Kalinga) based many of their rights of passage and social caste on the trophies gathered from their enemies, albeit those trophies were of a more personal nature (heads).


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## loki09789 (Apr 28, 2004)

This has been my experience too in relation to FMA and ideological basis.

There is some very tribal/ritualistic art practices that are unique to this, but most of the arts that come out of the PI seem to be 'fight' schools based on the average cultural values common to most PI citizens of the built up areas.

My reason for inquiring is that there seems to be a generalization at times to impose values, philosophies and religious morals to FMA practices, both personal and professional that are more Japanese/Chinese/Korean in origin.  I grant that these arts/philosophies exist in the PI, but the general moral structure of FMA's will be a combination of indiginous, Western or European/Christian/Catholic values.

I would be interested in any info on some of the FMAs that are influenced more by tribal/indiginous or other traditions -  even some of the Muslim culutarally influenced arts for a basis of comparison/discussion.  I DON"T want this to turn into culture bashing or Muslim 'fanatic' targeting.  I don't expect it, but do want to make this clear.


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## arnisandyz (Apr 28, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> Most warrior arts find a religious connotation innately ingrained. This is, in my opinion, because of the close relationship between religion and war through death more than through any code of ethics.
> 
> good points.  This opinion also supports the belief in Anting-Anting in getting any advantage you can get.  Prayer before combat, not so much that it is part of tradition, but because of personal belief that your destiny is already predetermined.


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## OULobo (Apr 28, 2004)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> OULobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## OULobo (Apr 28, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> My reason for inquiring is that there seems to be a generalization at times to impose values, philosophies and religious morals to FMA practices, both personal and professional that are more Japanese/Chinese/Korean in origin.  I grant that these arts/philosophies exist in the PI, but the general moral structure of FMA's will be a combination of indiginous, Western or European/Christian/Catholic values.



I notice that in the US the FMAs that I have come in contact with are very heavy with the culture and intrinsic attitude/atmosphere of the filipinos. There are few secondary influences that some teachers put in to make the are more palletable to Americans, like belts, ranks, uniforms, ect., but for the most part I find the most popular filipino instructors are pretty ethnocentric to the Philippines or their provence/village. Some gurus realize that the way to keep and gain students is to give them something different, something unique to their system rather than sugur frost it with more common Japanese or Korean elements. 

This seems opposed to the mentality that I am told is prevalent in the PIs themselves, where the foreign arts like TKD, Judo and Aikido are more common, more easily found and to some extent more popular. This is painfully true in Indonesia, where the practice of native Silat is miniscule in comparison to the foreign arts like Karate, TKD, ect., or worse, these foreign arts are practiced under the guise of Silat. Generally, this is associated with the theory that young men would rather learn to spar, than dance (a common element of Silat). 



			
				loki09789 said:
			
		

> I would be interested in any info on some of the FMAs that are influenced more by tribal/indiginous or other traditions -  even some of the Muslim culutarally influenced arts for a basis of comparison/discussion.  I DON"T want this to turn into culture bashing or Muslim 'fanatic' targeting.  I don't expect it, but do want to make this clear.



I think most of the people on this forum are open minded enough to leave the Arab bashing at the bar. Besides, the moro muslim is quite a different breed than the middle eastern muslim, just like the filipino Catholic is different from the American Catholic (although the difference is less drastic). 

I would imagine that all FMAs are influenced by tribal traditions, but to varying degrees. As the PIs are quite a cross-roads for the rest of the East, their native arts evolved to accomodate new techniques and so have diluted the original native styles (as the term native becomes less and less concrete a definition). There is a tribal festival in one of the western villages of Luzon, where they have a mock battle/dance to comemorate a battle between christians and native animistics, in which the christians rout the natives into the jungle. In the fight the christians even wear white, while the natives wear little of anything. Inherently the fight is a tragedic loss to christianity in that it is an aggressivly violent act, but melded into the native beliefs, it is a triumphant victory for the christians, a strange paradox of sorts. 

I guess I am having a little trouble seeing exactly what you are looking for, specific elements of tribal culture in various FMAs? If so are we examining the MA aspects (techniques or traditions) or any cultural aspect (dances and daily lifestyle)?


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## dearnis.com (Apr 28, 2004)

Check out the book "Culture Shock Philippines."  It is written for travellers headed to the islands, but gives a very nice overview for the FMA player.  I found the book helpful in leaning to understand where my teachers were coming from culturally.  
(Discussion above is quite good; just wanted to add a broader source....)


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## loki09789 (Apr 28, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> .
> 
> I guess I am having a little trouble seeing exactly what you are looking for, specific elements of tribal culture in various FMAs? If so are we examining the MA aspects (techniques or traditions) or any cultural aspect (dances and daily lifestyle)?



Well, some of the arts in MA (Crossada, Siniwali, Ocho Ocho,...) came from various places.  If there is anything distinct to the region that might have influenced a particular art...example:  Ocho Ocho patterns are sacred patterns or something like that (not saying it is, just using a theoretical culture/art link) and part of practicing the art is learning to manipulate a sacred 'energy' or something....

But it doesn't have to be specifically MA contributing arts.  Any FMA arts would be fine.  As far as the Muslim thing, yeah.  I figured it wouldn't amount to anything, but wanted to make sure my intentions were clear in light of current events.

The dances and such would be interesting too, but any tid bits are fine.


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## arnisandyz (Apr 29, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Well, some of the arts in MA (Crossada, Siniwali, Ocho Ocho,...) came from various places.
> 
> I guess one might say Crossada could have came from the Crucifix as I think some styles use the term "X" Equis, but thats just speculation. Some style also use the term "estrella" which could have relation to the star of David.   As far as the others, I just think its everyday explanations of techniques, like saying "figure 8".  I heard siniwali came from siwalli, a woven mat used in the Philippines.


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## OULobo (Apr 29, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Well, some of the arts in MA (Crossada, Siniwali, Ocho Ocho,...) came from various places.  If there is anything distinct to the region that might have influenced a particular art...example:  Ocho Ocho patterns are sacred patterns or something like that (not saying it is, just using a theoretical culture/art link) and part of practicing the art is learning to manipulate a sacred 'energy' or something....
> 
> But it doesn't have to be specifically MA contributing arts.  Any FMA arts would be fine.  As far as the Muslim thing, yeah.  I figured it wouldn't amount to anything, but wanted to make sure my intentions were clear in light of current events.
> 
> The dances and such would be interesting too, but any tid bits are fine.



One classic story of the Moro and Indo. groups is of how they used dances to practice martial arts. The colonizing parties (Dutch, Spanish, ect.) wouldn't allow the practicing of fighting arts because it was a catalyst of rebellion, so the masters would translate their techniques into dances. This made the occupiers believe that the people were happy and celebrating by dancing. In fact the dances were techniques disguised. Another common practice in Silat is to condition arms in a compact seated position. This was because traditionally they trained in caves or small windowless huts as to not be seen by the occupiers. 

As for the my experience in the majority of FMAs, they are the most pragmatic of all the arts I have ever trained. It's mostly business. 

One good example of possible interest is how the filipinos decorated some of their weapons with busts that represented things to be revered or reviled. Some examples include the hilts of many bolos having demons/dragons, dead spaniards, even Gen. Douglas MacArthur. 

There is a notion that the sheer white shirt called the barong (not the sword) or the tagalog barong was designed to show that the wearer didn't have any weapons on his person.


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## arnisandyz (Apr 29, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> There is a notion that the sheer white shirt called the barong (not the sword) or the tagalog barong was designed to show that the wearer didn't have any weapons on his person.



I think we talked about this before in another thread, no? If I remember correctly there were some arguments both for and against this.  One that was against was that the Barong Tagalog is a "dress shirt" almost to the status of a "business suite" that is usually worn by the noble business and political class and not often worn by common folks, farmers, bandits, etc. The shirt itself is beautiful, and probably expensive for the townsfolk, to think the Spaniards would issue out this shirt to everybody just so they could see the bolos underneath is also an issue.  As a side note I asked Professor Presas about this at a seminar about 5 or 6 years ago, his reply? "its just a shirt...but a very nice one!"


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## Black Grass (Apr 29, 2004)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> I think we talked about this before in another thread, no? If I remember correctly there were some arguments both for and against this.  One that was against was that the Barong Tagalog is a "dress shirt" almost to the status of a "business suite" that is usually worn by the noble business and political class and not often worn by common folks, farmers, bandits, etc. The shirt itself is beautiful, and probably expensive for the townsfolk, to think the Spaniards would issue out this shirt to everybody just so they could see the bolos underneath is also an issue.  As a side note I asked Professor Presas about this at a seminar about 5 or 6 years ago, his reply? "its just a shirt...but a very nice one!"



The Barong Tagalog came about because (and this is going to sound silly) the native Filipino's were not allowed to tuck in there shirts! Having your shirt tucked in was reserved for the spanish as it was a sign of a 'gentleman'. 

What the Filipino's did then was to take the the shirt and make them beautiful making them something to be coveted as oppossed to scorned.

Vince
aka Black Grass


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## loki09789 (Apr 29, 2004)

Black Grass said:
			
		

> The Barong Tagalog came about because (and this is going to sound silly) the native Filipino's were not allowed to tuck in there shirts! Having your shirt tucked in was reserved for the spanish as it was a sign of a 'gentleman'.
> 
> What the Filipino's did then was to take the the shirt and make them beautiful making them something to be coveted as oppossed to scorned.
> 
> ...



This is commonly termed "cultural appropriation" or taking ownership of somthing percieved as negative about your group to the dominant group and making it your own.  Similar to the one leg rolled up fashion of urban fashion (originally for shakling and the 'dog collar' home sentencing devices), the baggy no belt look (prison issue clothing that didn't fit and the no belt policy for weapons and suicide attempts), the use of the "n" word among blacks and other things.  It doesn't even have to be the opressed stealing back from the dominant, look at the use of 'cracker' among white kids in the adopted "blaccent"/hip hop slang of today.  I doubt they even realize that one of the connotations of 'cracker' is the overseer on slave plantations 'cracking' the whip on the backs of the black slaves....


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## arnisandyz (Apr 29, 2004)

Black Grass said:
			
		

> The Barong Tagalog came about because (and this is going to sound silly) the native Filipino's were not allowed to tuck in there shirts!
> 
> Thanks for the lead.  Upon further research on the net I also read that certain fabrics like silk were not permitted to be used by Filipinos, thus the use of the native fabric pinya.


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## OULobo (Apr 29, 2004)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> I think we talked about this before in another thread, no? If I remember correctly there were some arguments both for and against this.  One that was against was that the Barong Tagalog is a "dress shirt" almost to the status of a "business suite" that is usually worn by the noble business and political class and not often worn by common folks, farmers, bandits, etc. The shirt itself is beautiful, and probably expensive for the townsfolk, to think the Spaniards would issue out this shirt to everybody just so they could see the bolos underneath is also an issue.  As a side note I asked Professor Presas about this at a seminar about 5 or 6 years ago, his reply? "its just a shirt...but a very nice one!"



I tried to qualify this with the intro "there is a notion". Either way I was led to believe that barongs came to fashion after people stopped carrying bolos around. I was lead to believe it was to show that common knives were not being carried in urban areas where large blades were unrealistic and uncommon. As to the type of people wearing the shirt, I'd imiagine that professionals and politicals would be the ones that would need to show they aren't carrying. My thoughts are that this is a more recent fashion that is a courtesy to other filipinos, not an instated mandatory way of dress put in place by an occupier.


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## OULobo (Apr 29, 2004)

Black Grass said:
			
		

> The Barong Tagalog came about because (and this is going to sound silly) the native Filipino's were not allowed to tuck in there shirts! Having your shirt tucked in was reserved for the spanish as it was a sign of a 'gentleman'.
> 
> What the Filipino's did then was to take the the shirt and make them beautiful making them something to be coveted as oppossed to scorned.
> 
> ...



Cool, I never heard that one, but it's believable.


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## OULobo (Apr 29, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> This is commonly termed "cultural appropriation" or taking ownership of somthing percieved as negative about your group to the dominant group and making it your own.  Similar to the one leg rolled up fashion of urban fashion (originally for shakling and the 'dog collar' home sentencing devices), the baggy no belt look (prison issue clothing that didn't fit and the no belt policy for weapons and suicide attempts), the use of the "n" word among blacks and other things.  It doesn't even have to be the opressed stealing back from the dominant, look at the use of 'cracker' among white kids in the adopted "blaccent"/hip hop slang of today.  I doubt they even realize that one of the connotations of 'cracker' is the overseer on slave plantations 'cracking' the whip on the backs of the black slaves....



This is definitly going on my list of things I learned today. Thanks.


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## thekuntawman (May 1, 2004)

about islam in the philippine martial arts (and indonesian and malaysian style also).

the religion of islam forbids the practice of doing permanent damage to your opponent, like cripple him or blind him. if it is necessary, you can kill your opponent. but you can only do enough damage to protect yourself, stop the opponent, or in cases of war (even defense of the family), its permissibel to kill your opponent. 

in the old culture of most filipinos, the art is taken very seriously in the same way many muslims look at fighting art. it is not something you use to kick somebodys ***, for showing off about who is the toughest guy, but a real use for the art, defense of your family, community or yourself. so unlike other culture's martial artist, who might work in other occupations and choose the art as a hobby. one part of the country the art is a skill you need to be a man, like learning to cook or plant vegetables. in the southern part, where most of the muslims live, they have people who make the fighting art there whole life. 

so when you meet muslim martial artists, or some "old style" FMA people, they do talk about killing an opponent, how to do it, and the different methods to damage them. but that is because in the cultures we/they come from, the art has a different role than we have for it here in the U.S.


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## OULobo (May 6, 2004)

thekuntawman said:
			
		

> about islam in the philippine martial arts (and indonesian and malaysian style also).
> 
> the religion of islam forbids the practice of doing permanent damage to your opponent, like cripple him or blind him. if it is necessary, you can kill your opponent. but you can only do enough damage to protect yourself, stop the opponent, or in cases of war (even defense of the family), its permissibel to kill your opponent.
> 
> ...




It is really a coincidence that you mention this. I was just searching for the passage or quote that describes this. I remember it having something to do with it being better to kill your enemy, than to blind (cripple) him. Do you perchance have the quote or the passage?


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## thekuntawman (May 9, 2004)

here is one, and i will look for more

"When fighting and killing never torture your enemy, to do so is against the rules of humanity and God. Kill quickly and never prolong your enemys death by torture, if you need to kill do not make your enemy suffer, cut his throat and finish as quick as possible. Never cut the nose or ears or body parts of dead men to humiliate them, this practice belongs to the times of Jahaliyah (pre-Islam) and has no purpose for a Mujahid. "

i have some other ones but i am in a rush right now but i will post some more later. some are islamic in nature and some are just sayings i learned.


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## krys (Jun 7, 2004)

> so when you meet muslim martial artists, or some "old style" FMA people, they do talk about killing an opponent, how to do it, and the different methods to damage them. but that is because in the cultures we/they come from, the art has a different role than we have for it here in the U.S.



Actually in the south the arts are usually hidden and not shown outside the clan, peoples won't usually tell you they know martial arts even if they are experts....
Life was and is always rough in the area and it is better your ennemies don't know you can fight because they may ambush or poison you ( poisoning is still in use in the area and neighbouring Malaysia-Indonesia)....If you happen to become a trusted friend/student of those men they will talk oppenly about how they killed peoples or how their students-relatives did...


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