# Anyone Know How To Do The Forward Roll?



## Obito Uchiha (Mar 22, 2017)

In class, I'm generally have some trouble doing the forward roll, since not too long ago I tried front-flipping on my bed, and nearly sprained my neck (sad, right?), and now I can't even do a roll. So, can someone like, go through it step by step? Thanks!


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## Chris Parker (Mar 22, 2017)

Not without being in front of you and watching you, no. I heartily recommend you discuss this with your instructor... they will have their own way of teaching it, as well as being able to watch and see where you need work.


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## drop bear (Mar 22, 2017)

This is the version I like but it is different to a lot of martial arts versions. Having said that if you can do one sort of roll. It will help you get other variations.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 22, 2017)

So... you're going to advise a video on a different approach to rolling to the actual system the OP is practicing, that you don't know anything about? And offer that to a 14 year old kid who's a beginner at their art? Who has already injured themselves trying to practice unsupervised? While acknowledging that it's not really the same thing at all? Exactly how helpful do you think this is?

Look, I'm not saying don't try to help... I am, however, suggesting you look a bit further than your lack of knowledge, take a moment to see who you're talking to, and consider whether or not what you're offering is actually help at all. This, frankly, is not.


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## drop bear (Mar 22, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> So... you're going to advise a video on a different approach to rolling to the actual system the OP is practicing, that you don't know anything about? And offer that to a 14 year old kid who's a beginner at their art? Who has already injured themselves trying to practice unsupervised? While acknowledging that it's not really the same thing at all? Exactly how helpful do you think this is?
> 
> Look, I'm not saying don't try to help... I am, however, suggesting you look a bit further than your lack of knowledge, take a moment to see who you're talking to, and consider whether or not what you're offering is actually help at all. This, frankly, is not.



Yep. That is exactly what I am advising. And I know about forward rolls.

The approach in that video is about the best approach for getting a functional roll without crippling yourself like the OP did. Doing it in whatever way he was taught.

Seriously five year olds can do forward rolls.

Let me guess you are going to keep with this weird idea that people need to defer to their martial arts instructor for all things. Which you just conveniently happen to be.

If he wants to do a different version in class. Good on him. But that one on the video will work for the purpose of taking a fall safely.

I suggest you let go a little of this authority you are desparate to hold on to. Nobody cares.

And you know what a front flip is?


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## Chris Parker (Mar 22, 2017)

Except it's different in a number of ways to the rolls found in Ninjutsu arts... which also differ slightly depending on the organisation (the Jinenkan rolling methods are different to the Genbukan ones... which are different again to the Bujinkan ones). And it's not a "weird idea" that a martial arts student, asking about how to do thing in their martial art, should defer to their instructor who knows how they want things done there... it is, however, a little weird that you think asking their instructor is weird in and of itself.

The video you posted, if my students were to show it to me, would have me tell them to ignore much of it. And, as neither of us have seen how the OP is actually doing their rolling, nether of us (or anyone else here) is in any position to think they can advise on particular physical methods. In the end, this is not about any "authority" you feel I think I have... it's about actually knowing the topic and subject, and recognising when another member (you) are offering bad advice... and trying to avoid having the OP take it seriously.


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## drop bear (Mar 22, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> Except it's different in a number of ways to the rolls found in Ninjutsu arts... which also differ slightly depending on the organisation (the Jinenkan rolling methods are different to the Genbukan ones... which are different again to the Bujinkan ones). And it's not a "weird idea" that a martial arts student, asking about how to do thing in their martial art, should defer to their instructor who knows how they want things done there... it is, however, a little weird that you think asking their instructor is weird in and of itself.
> 
> The video you posted, if my students were to show it to me, would have me tell them to ignore much of it. And, as neither of us have seen how the OP is actually doing their rolling, nether of us (or anyone else here) is in any position to think they can advise on particular physical methods. In the end, this is not about any "authority" you feel I think I have... it's about actually knowing the topic and subject, and recognising when another member (you) are offering bad advice... and trying to avoid having the OP take it seriously.



It is weird when your advice on everything is defer to your leader. You know the subject but cant break down a forward roll instructional?

I am in a position to advise on how to do a forward roll. It is not exactly a super secret. Most people gan get a forward roll. 

Once you understand how to do a safe forward roll. You can then apply the principles to any sort of different roll in different arts you want. 

I said the ninja on may be different. That doesn't actually matter. You dont learn one forward roll and have it for life. I started out doing the gymnastics one.






Then did the parkour one.

Then did variations on that. like the stupid back of the hand version. Which i can do but dont like.





No handed dive rolling and so on.

Varying the roll isnt hard. Getting some sort of roll in the first place is. You need to change the method of teaching so the student gets that. Once he gets that he is sorted.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 22, 2017)

Son, the fact is that the way a roll is done has specific reasons, ones that you don't know or understand. Yes, the instructor needs to be the authority that is looked to. No, not all rolls are equal in terms of being applicable. No, the rolls you've given (most especially the gymnastic ones) are not applicable.

You have a tendency to think that your context is the only "real" one... which leads to you offering opinions where you have no idea what you're talking about. We could look to your posts in the "Looking for an Iaito" thread... or your posts in the "Aikido Hate" thread at the moment... where it's clear you don't have the first clue what Aiki actually is, nor, indeed, how to even spell it... even when everyone else is spelling it correctly. And, frankly, the incredible lack of awareness and familiarity shown by not having a clue about the words themselves, let alone what they mean, shows that nothing you have to say in these areas should be taken as having any credibility whatsoever.

If you insist on coming into threads and areas on topics you have no clue about, then try to stop arguing with the people who do know what they're talking about. You just look foolish otherwise.


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## drop bear (Mar 22, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> Son, the fact is that the way a roll is done has specific reasons, ones that you don't know or understand. Yes, the instructor needs to be the authority that is looked to. No, not all rolls are equal in terms of being applicable. No, the rolls you've given (most especially the gymnastic ones) are not applicable.
> 
> You have a tendency to think that your context is the only "real" one... which leads to you offering opinions where you have no idea what you're talking about. We could look to your posts in the "Looking for an Iaito" thread... or your posts in the "Aikido Hate" thread at the moment... where it's clear you don't have the first clue what Aiki actually is, nor, indeed, how to even spell it... even when everyone else is spelling it correctly. And, frankly, the incredible lack of awareness and familiarity shown by not having a clue about the words themselves, let alone what they mean, shows that nothing you have to say in these areas should be taken as having any credibility whatsoever.



Boy. the fact is you so far haven't offered any useful advise. You never do. It is just the leader knows best. Just put it in your sig or something it would be easier.

Specific reasons that nobody knows or understands? Let me guess I would have to defer to the leader to find out what they are? I mean don't be specific or helpful. Dont explain the specifics or reasons. Just assume you are right and nobody should ever question your authority.

Not all rolls are equal. From a practical stand point that parkour style roll is the best. It helps you catch the ground a bit better at speed. This will give you a chance to direct your head if your fall angle is a bit off.The others not so much.

 That is not the point. Learning any roll will help you learn the others. And that parkour one is a bit safer for a noob to do.

See that is a specific reason that doesn't require anyone to defer to any leader whatsoever. This is how you give helpfull relevant advise in a practical sense.

Whether it is spelled correctly or not.

If you insist on coming into threads and areas on topics you have no clue about, then try to stop arguing with the people who do know what they're talking about. You just look foolish otherwise.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 22, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Boy. the fact is you so far haven't offered any useful advise. You never do. It is just the leader knows best. Just put it in your sig or something it would be easier.



You really don't get it, do you? 



drop bear said:


> Specific reasons that nobody knows or understands? Let me guess I would have to defer to the leader to find out what they are? I mean don't be specific or helpful. Dont explain the specifics or reasons. Just assume you are right and nobody should ever question your authority.



I train the same damn art, kid. I do know what I'm talking about. I know why the instructor is the source that should be addressed, and I have stated why. Your complete ignorance is not any excuse.



drop bear said:


> Not all rolls are equal. From a practical stand point that parkour style roll is the best. It helps you catch the ground a bit better at speed. This will give you a chance to direct your head if your fall angle is a bit off.The others not so much.



No, it's not. Not for our arts. You have no experience or understanding of that, so I heartily recommend you back out before you look even more like an idiot. Again.



drop bear said:


> That is not the point. Learning any roll will help you learn the others. And that parkour one is a bit safer for a noob to do.



But not relevant to learning the rolling methods of Ninjutsu. I don't give a damn if you like it, it's not relevant here.



drop bear said:


> See that is a specific reason that doesn't require anyone to defer to any leader whatsoever. This is how you give helpfull relevant advise in a practical sense.
> 
> Whether it is spelled correctly or not.



No, it's not. It's how you betray the fact that you're completely ignorant here, and think that your lack of knowledge is somehow helpful, because you can't see the issues with it.



drop bear said:


> If you insist on coming into threads and areas on topics you have no clue about, then try to stop arguing with the people who do know what they're talking about. You just look foolish otherwise.



Hmm... were you meant to keep that in quotation, or were you thinking that this was some way of throwing my words back at me? I mean... you're in a Ninjutsu thread... so the same criticism is hardly appropriate...


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## drop bear (Mar 22, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> You really don't get it, do you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok. look when you can get back to anybody on the details of how to do a forward roll. Then we can accept you may have any clue as to how to help OP.

Untill then we should have discussions about forward rolls by people who can explain how to do forward rolls.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 22, 2017)

And when you have the first idea about rolls in Ninjutsu, then we can accept that any advice you offer is in anyway relevant. Until then, we can assume you don't know what you're talking about, and should leave the advice to people who do.


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## Tez3 (Mar 22, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Seriously five year olds can do forward rolls.



Actually most can't, they have to be taught, either by an adult or they teach among themselves.


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## oaktree (Mar 22, 2017)

Obito Uchiha said:


> In class, I'm generally have some trouble doing the forward roll, since not too long ago I tried front-flipping on my bed, and nearly sprained my neck (sad, right?), and now I can't even do a roll. So, can someone like, go through it step by step? Thanks!


Whatever advise given would not really help because one have no idea what type of front roll you are doing. The second thing is as Chris says without seeing you roll it's hard to give advise. If I said something general like keep your chin tucked in and keep your self tight and compact it most likely would not help much. If you are having problems rolling you need a teacher to pretty much be next to you showing you, helping you perform the roll. Doing a parkour roll is different than say how done in taijutsu and jujutsu so I also wouldn't advise learning it for the sake of ukemi.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 22, 2017)

drop bear said:


> This is the version I like but it is different to a lot of martial arts versions. Having said that if you can do one sort of roll. It will help you get other variations.


that's how we teach the forward roll. Roll from shoulder to hip and not on the spine.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 22, 2017)

You two might want to knock off the sniping and insults before someone has to step in and do something really Official.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 22, 2017)

*The OP injured himself doing a front flip.* More than likely all you need is time to let your sprained neck heal so that it will be relaxed when you are rolling and you will be able to continue. However, I would consult a physician regarding your neck before training again. 

As Chris pointed out the best advice any of us can give you is to get some time with your instructor so that you learn to roll properly in this system. I would not spend time learning rolling techniques from any other system as you may have to unlearn some bad habits. All the videos above have habits that would be bad for someone practicing in one of the Takamatsuden Arts.

*Now, here is the good news!* You are in a system that has in my opinion the finest break falls and rolls in the world. I have not found another system that does it as well!


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 22, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> All the videos above have habits that would be bad for someone practicing in one of the Takamatsuden Arts.


I'm willing to bet that the rolls are going to follow the same mechanics. From a body mechanics I'm sure their are universal things that you don't want to do regardless of style be it a martial arts system or acrobatics systems.  Hand placement and foot placement may be different just depending on what you are trying to do when you get up to the upright position.
For example:  This would be a universal incorrect way to do a roll





As well as this one.  





As for front flips, those are things that people have to be fully committed to.  If the person bails out and opens up in the middle then they can crash on their neck.  I've been there and have done it a couple of times when learning how to do double front flips.  The only good news is that the front flip is easier to learn than the double flip.





I wouldn't recommend learning to do front flips without someone who knows how to spot you. People who know how to spot you will help make sure that you get the rotation that you need or slow your descent if you don't get enough.   OP don't be like the guy in video.

True story OP.  as a kid I did a front flip on my parents bed and smashed my mouth on the head of the bed.  That day I had to have 2 teeth pulled because it bent my teeth in.  Training on the right equipment is everything.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 22, 2017)

There are certain mechanics that are going to be good regardless of style.  However, some styles do things differently based on that systems methods and needs.   The parkour video above is a good example.  What he is doing has merit but would teach a Takamatsuden practitioner some bad habits that they would have to unlearn.


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## drop bear (Mar 22, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> There are certain mechanics that are going to be good regardless of style.  However, some styles do things differently based on that systems methods and needs.   The parkour video above is a good example.  What he is doing has merit but would teach a Takamatsuden practitioner some bad habits that they would have to unlearn.



It is easier to unlearn a roll once you have the confidence to actually roll.

If you never get that starting concept you will struggle.

The biggest trick in learning how to do a forward roll is you have to already know how to roll. 

A lot of acro is like that.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 22, 2017)

Still, learning an improper way to roll for your martial system can take some times years to unlearn and you may be stuck with it for life.  I personally have witnessed people unable to shake their previous training and it has affected them.


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## drop bear (Mar 22, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Still, learning an improper way to roll for your martial system can take some times years to unlearn and you may be stuck with it for life.  I personally have witnessed people unable to shake their previous training and it has affected them.




I have never witnessed that.  Normally if a person can roll they get the variation in about 5 minutes.

Certainly not years.  

If they cant roll.  Then they have to get over that initial issue. Still not years.  But a lot more class time.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 22, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> There are certain mechanics that are going to be good regardless of style.  However, some styles do things differently based on that systems methods and needs.   The parkour video above is a good example.  What he is doing has merit but would teach a Takamatsuden practitioner some bad habits that they would have to unlearn.


 When doing a forward roll do you roll on your spine?  Do you roll on your shoulders? Do you do both?  If so then what is the basic mechanic of that roll?  It's going to either be on the along the spin or across the spine.  I don't know of any other way to get into forward roll other than things that we should do, such as using the neck or face to start the roll.

I think what Drop Bear is trying to highlight is that.  Someone who has an idea of what is involved in a roll can learned the appropriate technique faster than someone who has never done a forward roll before.  I did forward rolls in gymnastics when I was 8.  We were taught to role on the spine.   Then at that age of 40 I had to learn how to roll using my shoulder.  My first 2 times horrible, but it was still better than those who had never done it.  I must have practice that type of roll maybe 5 times total.  Then early this year, 4 years later the roll came up again.  I was able to roll using my right shoulder on the first try.  I've never did it using my left shoulder before so it only took me 2 tries to get it.  The only reason I was able to learn it so quickly was because I was familiar with the forward roll from back in gymnastics.   There is no way I could have made such progress if I was like the other students who have never done any type of forward role before.   

Understanding and getting a feel for what's required and how the body needs to move and balance helps a lot.  The OP has a neck injury probably because the OP wasn't familiar with the concept and requirements that would produce a successful flip. To be honest in terms of rolling I can only see the exit of the roll changing more than the entry.
I probably wouldn't learn from this guy





This guy yeah he's got some nice moves.  Most important notice that the entry to the roll doesn't change much, but the exit of the roll does.





I always wondered what good are martial arts rolls in a fight and I'm starting to think that the rolls weren't just for fighting.  But if you have to flee, then a jump from a high place, say off of a building, then that roll could be the difference between a broken leg and an escape. This would especially be true for anyone who performed the historical roles of the ninja.  Maybe I'm reading too much into the roll, but I just can't see someone just doing one for no reason in a fight unless it's a recovery move.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 22, 2017)

The problem with learning anything is that if you practice it over and over again it will be there and may take a long time to unlearn it and replace it with a better method.  Of course this may differ based on the individual.  Certainly people can do it and have done it but..... that doesn't mean that it is the optimum way to learn.  Why not just learn it correctly in your system from the start?  *So what I said in the above quotes is still correct.*

Budo Taijutsu rolls are different then say if you were learning BJJ breakfalls and rolls or Judo, parkour, etc.  They are not exactly the same.  While certain fundamental movements may be similar there are differences.  For instance in the Takamatsuden arts you have to learn to roll or breakfall with a weapon in your hand as it is primarily a tool based system.  So learning the parkour version in the previous page would do any Takamatsuden practitioner a disservice in the long run.  Instead they should learn the "correct way" for their system from their instructor.

*I don't know what is hard to understand from the above???*


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## dunc (Mar 22, 2017)

Obito Uchiha said:


> In class, I'm generally have some trouble doing the forward roll, since not too long ago I tried front-flipping on my bed, and nearly sprained my neck (sad, right?), and now I can't even do a roll. So, can someone like, go through it step by step? Thanks!



Here you go - this is how it's done at our place

Generally speaking I think it's best to learn from having one knee on the floor


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 22, 2017)

Do we know whether the OP actually trains in one of the Takamatsuden systems? I know he posted this thread in the Ninjutsu sub forum, but the only other post he's made which gives a clue to his training background is one where he describes the way he throws a Karate-style round kick.

If he actually trains in the Bujinkan, then the forward roll would probably have been one of the very first things he was taught. (I don't know about the various Bujinkan offshoots, but I imagine the same applies to most of them as well.) In that case, I could see him asking for advice on compensating for his hurt neck or overcoming some of the common difficulties new students have with the forward roll, but not asking for a step by step explanation of the basic mechanics.


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## KangTsai (Mar 22, 2017)

Crouch down, make a diamond with your hands, roll on your shoulder from your arm, not your spine, finish by standing from a cross-legged position.
This is the roll you do for hard landings and stuff, just in case this isn't the "forward roll" you meant.


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## drop bear (Mar 22, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> The problem with learning anything is that if you practice it over and over again it will be there and may take a long time to unlearn it and replace it with a better method.  Of course this may differ based on the individual.  Certainly people can do it and have done it but..... that doesn't mean that it is the optimum way to learn.  Why not just learn it correctly in your system from the start?  *So what I said in the above quotes is still correct.*
> 
> Budo Taijutsu rolls are different then say if you were learning BJJ breakfalls and rolls or Judo, parkour, etc.  They are not exactly the same.  While certain fundamental movements may be similar there are differences.  For instance in the Takamatsuden arts you have to learn to roll or breakfall with a weapon in your hand as it is primarily a tool based system.  So learning the parkour version in the previous page would do any Takamatsuden practitioner a disservice in the long run.  Instead they should learn the "correct way" for their system from their instructor.
> 
> *I don't know what is hard to understand from the above???*



I don't understand why the concerted effort to force people to buy in for information that is basically free.

Personaly i consider the behavior predatory.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> It is easier to unlearn a roll once you have the confidence to actually roll.
> 
> If you never get that starting concept you will struggle.
> 
> ...



He has started. He is doing an art which includes instruction on how to roll. But he wants advice on how to do the rolls in the art he's training in... not the random variety you are presenting.

Seriously. Please understand that everything you've said is irrelevant to the actual request from the OP, no matter how close you, with your lack of experience, think it is.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> This is the version I like but it is different to a lot of martial arts versions. Having said that if you can do one sort of roll. It will help you get other variations.


The mechanics are the same as our roll. I'm going to play with that as a good starting point for students. Might be easier to stay inside the roll with that hand attached.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I have never witnessed that.  Normally if a person can roll they get the variation in about 5 minutes.
> 
> Certainly not years.
> 
> If they cant roll.  Then they have to get over that initial issue. Still not years.  But a lot more class time.


I've not seen a functional front roll that wouldn't work with what we do in NGA (except for a tumbling roll that goes straight over the head), so I see this the way you do, DB. However, I don't know the roll they are discussing, and it's possible they need some specific elements that I don't, and learning the roll the wrong way might cause an issue. The closest I can come would be if someone came in with that tumbling roll, it would take more time to adjust that to free up an arm and get the head outside than to start them from scratch.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 23, 2017)

I remember when a stage actor came into a Bujinkan school and wanted to learn.  He had spent many years learning poorly executed stage breakfalls and swordsmanship that was not compatible with Budo Taijutsu.  After having a very difficult time and realizing that his previous habits would take quite some time to unlearn he basically gave up and moved on.  It was not for lack of trying on his part or lack of the teacher's really trying to help him.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 23, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I remember when a stage actor came into a Bujinkan school and wanted to learn.  He had spent many years learning poorly executed stage breakfalls and swordsmanship that was not compatible with Budo Taijutsu.  After having a very difficult time and realizing that his previous habits would take quite some time to unlearn he basically gave up and moved on.  It was not for lack of trying on his part or lack of the teacher's really trying to help him.


 
The stage actor, that sounds like a personal thing. Where the stage actor didn't want to let go of what he knew and learn a different way.  This is different than breaking a bad habit.  If someone says, here I will show you how to do a different breakfall, then you learn the different breakfall.  The mindset should be the same if I show you 5 different punching techniques.  You learn 5 different punching techniques and no one ever claims, that bad habit stopped them from learning 5 different punching techniques.  Put them in a different system and such as Muay Thai then that person learn the attacks of Muay Thai.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 23, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> The stage actor, that sounds like a personal thing. Where the stage actor didn't want to let go of what he knew and learn a different way.  This is different than breaking a bad habit.  If someone says, here I will show you how to do a different breakfall, then you learn the different breakfall.  The mindset should be the same if I show you 5 different punching techniques.  You learn 5 different punching techniques and no one ever claims, that bad habit stopped them from learning 5 different punching techniques.  Put them in a different system and such as Muay Thai then that person learn the attacks of Muay Thai.


It's not necessarily a matter of not wanting to let go. Here's an example: I changed the back roll I teach (from the one I learned from my instructors). My wife used the old roll for 8 years, then had a few years away from it. She has now been doing the new roll for about 2 years. She still does the old version out of habit about 20% of the time. In this case, it's inconsequential, because both work for our art. And she has never resisted the new roll - she actually likes it better.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 23, 2017)

*Not quite a personal thing.*  He trained for years learning breakfalls that work on a stage are not really designed to be effective.  In other words they are designed to look good for the crowd.  He just could not shake what he had learned.  Similarly to gpseymour's wife.  While what she does still works the stage actors skill did not work.  It did not protect his body well during training.  Some times it is hard to let go of some thing you have done for years.  It takes time.  He didn't have the patience.  It would be like myself trying to learn his stage breakfalls.  A. my body after this many years (36 of performing this style of rolls) wouldn't allow me to do it well.  B.  I would constantly be utilizing a breakfall or roll that was quiet and or non-damaging to my body that might not necessarily look great on stage.  I would suck doing stage breakfalls! 
*
All of the above means zip to the OP's question.*  The best answer for him is to see a doctor regarding his neck and then talk to his instructor and get training from him to perform techniques correctly in their art.  Rather than trying to learn some thing here or by video!


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It's not necessarily a matter of not wanting to let go. Here's an example: I changed the back roll I teach (from the one I learned from my instructors). My wife used the old roll for 8 years, then had a few years away from it. She has now been doing the new roll for about 2 years. She still does the old version out of habit about 20% of the time. In this case, it's inconsequential, because both work for our art. And she has never resisted the new roll - she actually likes it better.


Your wife's situation is different.  She learned the new roll technique correct?  Then the old technique didn't make it harder for her to learn the new, and she does the new roll 80% of the time which is good.   If the roll that she does 20% of the time is correct technique and the roll that she does 80% of the time is correct technique.  Then your wife is 100% correct technique when she uses either roll.  What your wife has is an option to do 2 things correctly.

I can promise you that the 20% would fall to zero if she believes the old roll to be incorrect.  We hold onto things that we believe are correct and useful and get rid of the things that we believe to be wrong and useless.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 23, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> He trained for years learning breakfalls that work on a stage are not really designed to be effective. In other words they are designed to look good for the crowd. He just could not shake what he had learned.


He's an actor so why would he get rid of break falls that are designed to look good for the stage?  Think about it.  If you worked as an actor and you were taught to do breakfalls that looked good for the movies, then why would you let go of that?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 23, 2017)

Exactly which made it very hard for him to do this correctly in a different art.

The OP is training we believe in a Takamatsuden art.  He should learn how to do things correctly in that art not what was suggested earlier in this thread by others.  So he should learn the correct method for his chosen art from his instructor!


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2017)

I remember doing a professional wrestling course once with a guy who had never done rolling before. It is a variation of what I did but was pretty easy to master.

He never got it and eventually quit.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 23, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Your wife's situation is different.  She learned the new roll technique correct?  Then the old technique didn't make it harder for her to learn the new, and she does the new roll 80% of the time which is good.   If the roll that she does 20% of the time is correct technique and the roll that she does 80% of the time is correct technique.  Then your wife is 100% correct technique when she uses either roll.  What your wife has is an option to do 2 things correctly.
> 
> I can promise you that the 20% would fall to zero if she believes the old roll to be incorrect.  We hold onto things that we believe are correct and useful and get rid of the things that we believe to be wrong and useless.


Actually, it did make it hard for her to learn it. It took her longer than the new students to get the new version. And no, she's not 100% correct. She still has a hesitation part of the time. The difference between the two isn't as big (nor as important) as the difference Brian's student was dealing with. If her old roll wasn't functional, I wouldn't be able to let her take techniques that require a back roll.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I remember doing a professional wrestling course once with a guy who had never done rolling before. It is a variation of what I did but was pretty easy to master.
> 
> He never got it and eventually quit.


Some folks seem to really struggle with the rolls. I'm fairly certain the falls and rolls cost NGA more students than anything else does. It's a slow process for most folks.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, it did make it hard for her to learn it. It took her longer than the new students to get the new version. And no, she's not 100% correct. She still has a hesitation part of the time. The difference between the two isn't as big (nor as important) as the difference Brian's student was dealing with. If her old roll wasn't functional, I wouldn't be able to let her take techniques that require a back roll.


Are you saying her roll wasn't functional? You are saying that the difference between the two isn't as big (nor as important)? For me and my bad habits, the difference is usually really big and really important.  If the importance between the 2 rolls are very little then there really isn't any incentive to get rid of something that has little change.

It's not like the habit that some people have by punching with their thumbs inside their fist.  For them all it takes is to have a bad experience with that to understand (not know), that punching with the thumb inside is a bad idea.


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## drop bear (Mar 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Some folks seem to really struggle with the rolls. I'm fairly certain the falls and rolls cost NGA more students than anything else does. It's a slow process for most folks.



The issue is there is no real progression. You have to be able to roll to learn how to roll.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 24, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Are you saying her roll wasn't functional? You are saying that the difference between the two isn't as big (nor as important)? For me and my bad habits, the difference is usually really big and really important.  If the importance between the 2 rolls are very little then there really isn't any incentive to get rid of something that has little change.
> 
> It's not like the habit that some people have by punching with their thumbs inside their fist.  For them all it takes is to have a bad experience with that to understand (not know), that punching with the thumb inside is a bad idea.


I didn't say it wasn't functional. I said it did make it hard for her to learn the new one, which was the point of the earlier comments about not learning a generic roll. The bujinkan rolls in those videos are also functional, but wouldn't work well with our throws. Someone who knows those would struggle to get the angle on our rolls. Incentive doesn't change the fact that the neural pathways are heavily myelinated, so they fire very quickly, and the muscular reactions become automatic. It takes time for them to lose that sheathing, then construct new networks to represent the new movements, then myelinate those. Someone of equal natural ability doesn't have to build as strong a network for the new actions, because it's not competing with the old, well-ingrained one.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 24, 2017)

drop bear said:


> The issue is there is no real progression. You have to be able to roll to learn how to roll.


I'm not sure what that means, DB.


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## Obito Uchiha (Mar 28, 2017)

Oh, I thought my thread would go unnoticed . Anyways, thanks guys!


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## dunc (Mar 28, 2017)

I'd add that, in my view, there are several important differences between rolling on mats and rolling on hard floors

Once you have the basic techniques down, I think it's a good idea to periodically roll on hard surfaces - you'll quickly learn the differences 

Oh and crossing the legs at the end is not great from a martial perspective


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 30, 2017)

dunc said:


> I'd add that, in my view, there are several important differences between rolling on mats and rolling on hard floors
> 
> Once you have the basic techniques down, I think it's a good idea to periodically roll on hard surfaces - you'll quickly learn the differences
> 
> Oh and crossing the legs at the end is not great from a martial perspective


I worked on my rolls quite a bit on grass (on top of Southern clay soil), in hotel rooms (carpet with no discernible padding), and other less-yielding surfaces. I need to get back to some of that.


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