# No schools close, what about videos?



## quikhiccup (Aug 11, 2006)

there are no schools close enough for me to attend to learn kempo. my question is, are any of the video training materials out there worthwhile and legit? i've read a little on here about Villari not being any good, so I figured I'd ask you guys' opinions. thanks for any replies


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## MA-Caver (Aug 11, 2006)

quikhiccup said:
			
		

> there are no schools close enough for me to attend to learn kempo. my question is, are any of the video training materials out there worthwhile and legit? i've read a little on here about Villari not being any good, so I figured I'd ask you guys' opinions. thanks for any replies


There are probably a good number of videos out there for whatever art you're seeking to practice... however; nothing will ever take the place of a live instructor to help correct: stances, techniques, and personal knowledge. Hopefully you can find something within reason. :asian: Good Luck.


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## MJS (Aug 11, 2006)

quikhiccup said:
			
		

> there are no schools close enough for me to attend to learn kempo. my question is, are any of the video training materials out there worthwhile and legit? i've read a little on here about Villari not being any good, so I figured I'd ask you guys' opinions. thanks for any replies


 
There have been a number of threads on here regarding this subject. The search feature should provide you with quite a bit of interesting reading. As it was already said, its best to train with a live instructor. There are just some things that will not be covered on the tapes/dvd. In addition, its going to be difficult if you don't have a background in the art already. As far as a reference point, yes, they're ok for that.

That being said, you may want to check this out:

http://www.akki.com/indexs/indexpage.htm

Mike


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## bill007 (Aug 11, 2006)

quikhiccup said:
			
		

> there are no schools close enough for me to attend to learn kempo. my question is, are any of the video training materials out there worthwhile and legit? i've read a little on here about Villari not being any good, so I figured I'd ask you guys' opinions. thanks for any replies


 
Check this site www.shaolinkempo.com it's Professor Ingargiola website there's a at home program.


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## Doc (Aug 11, 2006)

quikhiccup said:
			
		

> there are no schools close enough for me to attend to learn kempo. my question is, are any of the video training materials out there worthwhile and legit? i've read a little on here about Villari not being any good, so I figured I'd ask you guys' opinions. thanks for any replies


You can't even learn to effectively play a musical instrument by video, and a piano ain't trying to kick your butt.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 11, 2006)

IF you already have a solid background in martial art, you MAY be able to learn SOME things from video.  But if you already have a solid background in martial arts, you don't need to learn from video.  What you already have will be better than what you can learn from video.

IF you already have a solid background in the particular art you are watching on video, then video can be a good reference tool.

If you are a complete beginner, and you have an instructor who suggests some videos to use as SUPPLEMENTAL training guides, but not as a replacement for live training, then video can be useful.

If you are a complete beginner, and you are trying to learn from video without an instructor, you are almost guaranteed to have poor results.


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## quikhiccup (Aug 12, 2006)

thanks for all the replies/info guys. any suggestions on what to do then? the only schools close to me that i can find teach TKD, Hapkido, Han Mu Do, a variation of Shotokan, Tai Chi, Yoga and Kickboxing (aerobic type). I'm not interested in any of those. Out of them all TKD is the only one I'd even consider. I travel alot in my job as well and that's the main reason I considered video training. thanks again for the replies/info.


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## MJS (Aug 12, 2006)

quikhiccup said:
			
		

> thanks for all the replies/info guys. any suggestions on what to do then? the only schools close to me that i can find teach TKD, Hapkido, Han Mu Do, a variation of Shotokan, Tai Chi, Yoga and Kickboxing (aerobic type). I'm not interested in any of those. Out of them all TKD is the only one I'd even consider. I travel alot in my job as well and that's the main reason I considered video training. thanks again for the replies/info.


 
I'd go with the TKD or the Hapkido.  

Mike


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## Doc (Aug 12, 2006)

Any training is better than video. If you don't like anything that's available, try doing aerobics and jogging on your own.


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## quikhiccup (Aug 12, 2006)

Doc....i'm trying hard to gauge if that's sarcasm or not. since when is learning a martial art comparable to aerobics & jogging? now if you mean TaeBo i might understand (complete sarcasm intended on that statement)


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## Ninjamom (Aug 12, 2006)

QuickHC - 

I was going to ask what other styles are available close to you.  

I'd recommend visiting a few classes of the other arts taught near you.  You might find one that you like, and any training with a qualified instructor is better than working from a video (IMO).  The techniques learned in TKD, Hapkido, or Shotokan will transfer nicely back into kenpo/kempo, if you ever get the chance to switch back to your 'first choice'.  Each of these will also help with your endurance, timing, strength, flexibility, reflexes, and sparring.  Also, all of these arts have enough schools that you should be able to find another school, if you ever need to move/travel again.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 12, 2006)

Video training, unless you have background, not good.

Hapkido and TDK, good. 

If you want Kempo hapkido may suffice quite nicely


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## Kacey (Aug 12, 2006)

I agree with the previous posters - training with an instructor, even if it's not your first choice of art, is going to be much more useful and effective than trying to learn from a video.  The topic of video instruction has been discussed in depth lately, most recently here and here.  Videos are great references, but not great for primary instruction.


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## Carol (Aug 12, 2006)

The problem with training only from video is that it's possible to learn things from video but what the student learns typically is not the right thing to learn.  An instructor is needed to help correct and refine your form. Habits are easy to burn in and extremely difficult to break.  

Something that is very important is the material in Kenpo builds on itself, so a single move learned improperly will continually haunt the student as they progress.


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## Drac (Aug 12, 2006)

Damn. Everybody beat to what I was going to say..Reread all posts..A lot of good informtion there..


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## quikhiccup (Aug 13, 2006)

thanks for the great info guys. i'm leaning towards hapkido at this time. also i believe the same school that teaches hapkido is looking into offering a grappling/jijutsu type art. TKD is great i'm sure but i'm not looking for something with so much emphasis on kicks/throws. i'd like to learn strikes with the hands/elbows/knees and kicks as well, but no so much emphasis on the kicking. also interested in grappling/jijutsu type arts. so hopefully this school will introduce that training and i can begin my studies there in hapkido and/or the grappling style. thanks again for all replies.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 13, 2006)

quikhiccup said:
			
		

> thanks for the great info guys. i'm leaning towards hapkido at this time. also i believe the same school that teaches hapkido is looking into offering a grappling/jijutsu type art. TKD is great i'm sure but i'm not looking for something with so much emphasis on kicks/throws. i'd like to learn strikes with the hands/elbows/knees and kicks as well, but no so much emphasis on the kicking. also interested in grappling/jijutsu type arts. so hopefully this school will introduce that training and i can begin my studies there in hapkido and/or the grappling style. thanks again for all replies.


 
If you are looking for the above, from what I have seen, I think Hapkido would be a very good choice. If you want to know more about it there are a few posts in the Korean MA section that are very informative and the Hapkido guys in that area are very knowledgeable on the it


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## BallistikMike (Aug 13, 2006)

The only thing stopping the human mind from learning from any type of input is the person learning it.

Now having said that mimicking is not learning and you have not truely learned anything unless you can apply that knowledge in the real world.

So... unless you have felt the speed and ferocity of a simple jab wrecking your nose how in the world do you think copying the moves from a video is learning?

I have 100's of videos. I love to watch what is out there and have a library of books and DVD's/Videos that I enjoy watching much more then what is currently on TV. Do I learn something from a video, yep. Am I able to apply it in the real world...sometimes after much trial and error and .... here it comes, the help of others working through it HANDS ON.

An Instructor bypasses this and allows for a "Better" learning environment if you believe learning something is applying it in the real world.


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## IWishToLearn (Aug 21, 2006)

I think that argument video vs. in person is going to rage on ad naseum. If you're completely isolated from schools and video is your only source - I hope you have at least a couple of people who you can work with, at least then everyone can help each other absorb from the videos - put 10 people in a room and everyone will get a lot of the same material as well as 10 different things from the same tape.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 21, 2006)

quikhiccup said:
			
		

> there are no schools close enough for me to attend to learn kempo. my question is, are any of the video training materials out there worthwhile and legit? i've read a little on here about Villari not being any good, so I figured I'd ask you guys' opinions. thanks for any replies


 
Though I'd usually say videos can help but they are not enough by themselves, at the Tatum camp last week, Mr. Tatum made it a point to recognize a gentleman who trained from the videos and came to Mr. Tatum to test and was awarded his Black Belt.  Mr. Tatum made it a point to mention that this guy didn't just do an OK test but that he "blew them all away" with his test...

It's up to the person, Take some tapes alot of rading, alot of practice and a determined person and youll get some effective stuff going.

My two cents


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## Josh Oakley (Aug 21, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> You can't even learn to effectively play a musical instrument by video, and a piano ain't trying to kick your butt.


 
I have a friend in conservatory who would disagree. Hell, Prince would disagree. He learned to effectively play 12 instruments on his own. You'd be surprised what you can teach yourself, especially when other methods of learning arent available. So, I'm not sure how well that comparison actually works for you. 

Plus, with a scientific approach and a like-minded partner, you'd be surprised what you could come up with even without the videos. I'd definately say to get into a school the moment your situation allows, but for the time being, use what's available. How do you think sais and nunchaku first came to be used as weapons in the first place?


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 21, 2006)

Josh Oakley said:
			
		

> ....How do you think sais and nunchaku first came to be used as weapons in the first place?


 
They went to a karate instructor. Duh! LOL


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## IWishToLearn (Aug 22, 2006)

Wonder how many times the first dude to tie two sticks together whacked himself in the balls or the head before he figured out how to swing 'em right. Happened to me several times - usually when I got cocky and tried something more advanced than what I was ready for. *grin*


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## Danjo (Aug 22, 2006)

Josh Oakley said:
			
		

> I have a friend in conservatory who would disagree. Hell, Prince would disagree. He learned to effectively play 12 instruments on his own. You'd be surprised what you can teach yourself, especially when other methods of learning arent available. So, I'm not sure how well that comparison actually works for you.
> 
> Plus, with a scientific approach and a like-minded partner, you'd be surprised what you could come up with even without the videos. I'd definately say to get into a school the moment your situation allows, but for the time being, use what's available. How do you think sais and nunchaku first came to be used as weapons in the first place?


 
Here's the issue the way I see it. If you want to re-invent the wheel, then go ahead and teach yourself martial arts. Somewhere in the distant past, someone was self taught that started the ball rolling. However, I would wager that they were pretty crude in their early technique, and that each subsequent generation added a bit of sophistication (or at least those students who had enough talent and imagination) depending on their experience. So if you want to be a crude martial artist who has to go out and actually fight people in order to see if you're doing it right, go ahead. But that's a hard row to hoe. I would prefer to stick with finding a qualified instructor that can correct you in the school before you go out in the street, bar, or wherever, and find out that you're technique needs tweaking in order to actually work.

Let me give you an example:

When I was doing a punch counter once, my instructor looked at where I had thrown the guy to the ground and asked, "How did he end up over there? Do it again." When I repeated it, he said. You stepped back with the wrong leg. If you do it your way, look where his leg ends up. He's going to kick you in the balls. If you do it the right way, you can finish him off and his feet are facing the other way." Well, let me tell you, I'd rather have learned that lesson in class, than in the street someday after I found out the hard way I had left myself open to that particular move. Would I have learned it either way? Yes. But which would _you_ prefer? Being "self taught" is doing it the hard way.


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## MJS (Aug 22, 2006)

Josh Oakley said:
			
		

> I have a friend in conservatory who would disagree. Hell, Prince would disagree. He learned to effectively play 12 instruments on his own. You'd be surprised what you can teach yourself, especially when other methods of learning arent available. So, I'm not sure how well that comparison actually works for you.


 
Question for you: Did your friend or Prince get any other formal instruction aside from what they learned on their own?



> Plus, with a scientific approach and a like-minded partner, you'd be surprised what you could come up with even without the videos. I'd definately say to get into a school the moment your situation allows, but for the time being, use what's available. How do you think sais and nunchaku first came to be used as weapons in the first place?


 
I'm sure many new students can come up with many things on their own, but that does not mean that what they come up with is going to be remotely effective, that they're really going to understand what they're doing, and they're not being watched by anyone to make corrections. If the art I wanted to study was not available in the area, I'd do a few different things. 1) Find a different art to train in or something that was similar or 2) travel to where I could find that art. Now, this option is certainly not for everyone but if I was hell bent on training in that art, and the nearest school was 5 hrs away, planning a weekend trip and getting some intensive training over those 2 days, then going home and working the material and then repeating the process, would by the next best thing.

As for this comment:



> How do you think sais and nunchaku first came to be used as weapons in the first place?


 
Yes, I'm sure that the person that invented these weapons, learned to use them on a trial and error basis.  However, as time went on, new and improved ways to use them came about.  I'm sure that the learning process is more productive now and would be under a live instructor, rather than trying to learn their use on my own.  Many things can be done on our own, but that does not mean that its going to be the best way or the most productive.


Videos are out there, and people are going to use them. If that is the route that someone wants to take, then so be it. I still stand by my feelings that nothing can replace a live instructor. 

Mike


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## Josh Oakley (Aug 22, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Here's the issue the way I see it. If you want to re-invent the wheel, then go ahead and teach yourself martial arts. Somewhere in the distant past, someone was self taught that started the ball rolling. However, I would wager that they were pretty crude in their early technique, and that each subsequent generation added a bit of sophistication (or at least those students who had enough talent and imagination) depending on their experience. So if you want to be a crude martial artist who has to go out and actually fight people in order to see if you're doing it right, go ahead. But that's a hard row to hoe. I would prefer to stick with finding a qualified instructor that can correct you in the school before you go out in the street, bar, or wherever, and find out that you're technique needs tweaking in order to actually work.
> 
> Let me give you an example:
> 
> When I was doing a punch counter once, my instructor looked at where I had thrown the guy to the ground and asked, "How did he end up over there? Do it again." When I repeated it, he said. You stepped back with the wrong leg. If you do it your way, look where his leg ends up. He's going to kick you in the balls. If you do it the right way, you can finish him off and his feet are facing the other way." Well, let me tell you, I'd rather have learned that lesson in class, than in the street someday after I found out the hard way I had left myself open to that particular move. Would I have learned it either way? Yes. But which would _you_ prefer? Being "self taught" is doing it the hard way.


 
In general I agree. That's why I got into a studio. But if the guy doesn't have any studios close, then videos and the scientific method will work for now. If you're stuck in the woods and you build a shelter, you're not reinventing anything. You're keeping the rain off your head until you can find your real home. If there's a good school, go to the school. But if there's no good school around, a good video will work. If there's no good video, a scientific mind and hopefully a good training partner will work. Either way, train train train.


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## Josh Oakley (Aug 22, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Question for you: Did your friend or Prince get any other formal instruction aside from what they learned on their own?


 
Well, Prince I'm not sure of. My friend did not. His first three years on the piano, he taught himself from a book. He also happened to practice 5 hours a day, 6 days a week. And when he went to conservatory, he was among the top students (and moved onto composing).


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## Danjo (Aug 22, 2006)

Well, Here's some information about Prince's musical background.

From Wikipedia:

_"Prince Rogers Nelson was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota at Mount Sinai Hospital on June 7, 1958 to John L. Nelson and Mattie Shaw. John L. Nelson played in a jazz trio The Prince Rogers Trio, hence Prince's birth name...Princes parents formally separated and he had a troubled relationship with his stepfather causing him to run away from home. He lived briefly with his father, who bought him his first guitar..."_

I don't know how really self taught he was given that his father was a musician. That might just be part of the legend etc.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 22, 2006)

Josh Oakley said:
			
		

> How do you think sais and nunchaku first came to be used as weapons in the first place?


 
Farmers that used them everyday for farming decided it was all they had for weapons and since they had some previous experience with them they worked well.

However they did not go to a book or video that taught them how nor did they just invent a sai or a chuck and say, "HEY now here's a cool weapon, lets see if I can kill someone with it."

Learning by yourself to play the guitar without a teacher or any number of musical instruments is one thing and it takes TALENT. Learning how to properly take hold of someone and joint lock them or throw them to the ground is another.

Can you buy a martial arts tape and learn how to kick? Sure you can.

If you go and train Taebo with a teacher do you know how to kick? Most definitely. 

But do you know how to defend yourself or do you know what it feels like to actually kick someone and how much power is required? Nope


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## RichK (Aug 22, 2006)

From everything I have read I did not see you post where you are. You may be surprised that someone here may know something close by. If not lean towards Hapkido like you said.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 22, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Farmers that used them everyday for farming decided it was all they had for weapons and since they had some previous experience with them they worked well.
> 
> However they did not go to a book or video that taught them how nor did they just invent a sai or a chuck and say, "HEY now here's a cool weapon, lets see if I can kill someone with it."
> 
> ...


 
Perhaps with sparring? just a thought...


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 22, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Perhaps with sparring? just a thought...


 
Exactly, that's my point.

In Video training there is no sparing nor is there any in Taebo. You may be able to copy the form but you do not know how to apply it. And if they show you 2 person sets on a video and you have no prior knowledge or an experienced teacher to turn to, youre just an accident waiting to happen. 

And it is not the same as teaching yourself a musical instrument. It is no harder or easier it is just not the same thing.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 22, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Exactly, that's my point.
> 
> In Video training there is no sparing nor is there any in Taebo. You may be able to copy the form but you do not know how to apply it. And if they show you 2 person sets on a video and you have no prior knowledge or an experienced teacher to turn to, youre just an accident waiting to happen.
> 
> And it is not the same as teaching yourself a musical instrument. It is no harder or easier it is just not the same thing.


 
I've seen videos that teach how to spar, and they show two person drills.  Now take those videos, find a partner and have at it.  Now I know what you're thinking. "you need an instructor to correct you when you make a mistake".  When your partner clocks you or catches you with a submission, you know you've made a mistake.  Now analyze, scrutinize, improvise, and devise.

And who said that there is no sparring in taebo.  that heavy bag moves just as much as any dummy/partner I've ever seen LOL.

While I don't quite like the idea of video training as the sole method, I know several who are video trained who I would put in my camp anyday.  Brains and Determination can go very far and is often grossly under estimated.


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## Josh Oakley (Aug 22, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> Wonder how many times the first dude to tie two sticks together whacked himself in the balls or the head before he figured out how to swing 'em right. Happened to me several times - usually when I got cocky and tried something more advanced than what I was ready for. *grin*


 
How'd you manage to whack yourself in the balls????


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## Josh Oakley (Aug 22, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Well, Here's some information about Prince's musical background.
> 
> From Wikipedia:
> 
> ...


 
OK. Bad example. Prince is thusly stricken from the record.


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## Josh Oakley (Aug 22, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Exactly, that's my point.
> 
> In Video training there is no sparing nor is there any in Taebo. You may be able to copy the form but you do not know how to apply it. And if they show you 2 person sets on a video and you have no prior knowledge or an experienced teacher to turn to, youre just an accident waiting to happen.
> 
> And it is not the same as teaching yourself a musical instrument. It is no harder or easier it is just not the same thing.


 
There's no sparring in video training? Maybe if only done alone. Video training does cover sparring. Obviously, you'd need someone else to spar with. And I don't know how Taebo got into the equation.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 22, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> I've seen videos that teach how to spar, and they show two person drills. Now take those videos, find a partner and have at it. Now I know what you're thinking. "you need an instructor to correct you when you make a mistake". When your partner clocks you or catches you with a submission, you know you've made a mistake. Now analyze, scrutinize, improvise, and devise.
> 
> And who said that there is no sparring in taebo. that heavy bag moves just as much as any dummy/partner I've ever seen LOL.
> 
> While I don't quite like the idea of video training as the sole method, I know several who are video trained who I would put in my camp anyday. Brains and Determination can go very far and is often grossly under estimated.



DOH!! I forgot the heavy bag 

Agreed



			
				Josh Oakley said:
			
		

> OK. Bad example. Prince is thusly stricken from the record.





			
				Josh Oakley said:
			
		

> There's no sparring in video training? Maybe if only done alone. Video training does cover sparring. Obviously, you'd need someone else to spar with. And I don't know how Taebo got into the equation.



I don't know how Prince, or is it the artist formally known as prince that is once again known as prince, got into the picture either, but he did 

Taebo was an example that is all, you throw kicks in Taebo, with an instructor in the room. But it does not mean you have a clue when sparring or actually fighting. Video training doesnt even have the instructor.

Sparing in video with a partner without someone qualified to help you out, in the same room, can be dangerous. You also have no one to tell you when you made a mistake or how to correct it.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 22, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I don't know how Prince, or is it the artist formally known as prince that is once again known as prince, got into the picture either, but he did


 
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Taebo was an example that is all, you throw kicks in Taebo, with an instructor in the room. But it does not mean you have a clue when sparring or actually fighting. Video training doesnt even have the instructor.
> 
> Sparing in video with a partner without someone qualified to help you out, in the same room, can be dangerous. You also have no one to tell you when you made a mistake or how to correct it.


 
When you get hit or subbed you know you've made a mistake (or several)


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## John Bishop (Aug 22, 2006)

I've always thought it would be interesting to form 2 football teams.  One team would be trained traditionally with coaches.  
The other team would be given individual video courses for each members positions.  
Both teams would be given the same amount of time to prepare for their game against each other.   
Which team would you bet on?


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## BallistikMike (Aug 22, 2006)

Same calibre player?

Does the team get to practice together like the one being coached?

Are they veteran football players or are they all newbe's?

Is the video instruction  by the same coach coaching the team live?

I would love to see this experiment I think it would be great!


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## John Bishop (Aug 22, 2006)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> Same calibre player?


Yep, gotta be a fair experiment.



			
				BallistikMike said:
			
		

> Does the team get to practice together like the one being coached?


Sure, just like video martial artists can practice on their neighbors, little sisters, etc.



			
				BallistikMike said:
			
		

> Are they veteran football players or are they all newbe's?


All newbies.  Again the experiment is to compare the results of video teaching/coaching vs live instruction.



			
				BallistikMike said:
			
		

> Is the video instruction  by the same coach coaching the team live?


Yes.  That way no one can claim the outcome was influenced by a superior coach vs a inferior coach.



			
				BallistikMike said:
			
		

> I would love to see this experiment I think it would be great!


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## John Bishop (Aug 22, 2006)

Can anyone name any "video trained only", champions or stars in either: forms, point fighting, full contact fighting, kickboxing, MMA, shoot fighting, Muay Thai, western boxing, jujitsu, judo, Greco Roman wrestling, freestyle wrestling, catch as catch can, Pankration?  
Or, any noteworthy "video trained only" instructors of any of these disiplines?


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## RichK (Aug 22, 2006)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Can anyone name any "video trained only", champions or stars in either: forms, point fighting, full contact fighting, kickboxing, MMA, shoot fighting, Muay Thai, western boxing, jujitsu, judo, Greco Roman wrestling, freestyle wrestling, catch as catch can, Pankration?
> Or, any noteworthy "video trained only" instructors of any of these disiplines?



Mike Tyson??????


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## Danjo (Aug 22, 2006)

Yeah, I think it would have to be the same coach on the video. Of course, that would mean the people who were training live would have the coach looking at him going, "Hey, this is the mistake you just made. Here's how to do it right." Whereas the people watching on video might be making totally different mistakes and not getting the correction because there was no coach to watch them.

Video training can try to anticipate the majority of mistakes that everyone makes, but it can't predict all of the individual mistakes that one can make when doing a technique. Thus, if one happens to make one of those mistakes that aren't covered in the video (and we all do that) it won't be corrected. Also, if one tries to implement a technique incorrectly from watching a video and it thus doesn't work, the video student may simply conclude that the techinque doesn't work, rather than that they're doing it wrong. Hell, even if they conclude that they _are_ doing it wrong, they won't know how to correct it and make it work if the video doesn't happen to cover that angle etc. Video training is like painting with a big brush as opposed to a small brush. Broad brushes are great for painting houses, or fences, but they are not too good for rendering drops of water on a grape. In other words, you can only go so far with it.


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## Danjo (Aug 22, 2006)

RichK said:
			
		

> Mike Tyson??????


 
Ummm...you're either joking or are referring to the fact that Tyson used footage of old boxers as a supplement to his actual live training. On second thought, you _must_ be joking.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 22, 2006)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Can anyone name any "video trained only", champions or stars in either: forms, point fighting, full contact fighting, kickboxing, MMA, shoot fighting, Muay Thai, western boxing, jujitsu, judo, Greco Roman wrestling, freestyle wrestling, catch as catch can, Pankration?
> Or, any noteworthy "video trained only" instructors of any of these disiplines?


 
Let me think..... well it could be.... then agian maybe him...... then there was that guy.... AHA I GOT IT!!!!!


no


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 22, 2006)

I like this football experiment.

Do they get the weight training by video too, while the others have a coach?


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 23, 2006)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Can anyone name any "video trained only", champions or stars in either: forms, point fighting, full contact fighting, kickboxing, MMA, shoot fighting, Muay Thai, western boxing, jujitsu, judo, Greco Roman wrestling, freestyle wrestling, catch as catch can, Pankration?
> Or, any noteworthy "video trained only" instructors of any of these disiplines?


 
It should be noted that many of the most famous MMA fighters of today admitted that they STARTED by watching videos only when there was no instructor available.

Pat Miletich and Bas Rutten come to mind as two very successful guys who openly stated this.  Bas Rutten mentions that he had no ground experience at all but would watch videos and read books and then work on the moves with a friend when he was competing in pancrase to learn how to deal with the grapplers.  Bas Rutten was quite successful at this before deciding to seek some level of formal instruction.

So there is something to this video training when nothing else is available.  It's kind of strange question to ask if there is a tape trained champ of a professional endeavor.  If your a champ that means you have sponsors, which equals money for and access to instruction.  How about guys that are professional now who had success early before they had qualified instruction.  Again many MMA fighters have stated in interviews that they initially learned their ground game from tapes before they could get sponsored or afford high quality instruction. Makes ya wonder.


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## Danjo (Aug 23, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> It should be noted that many of the most famous MMA fighters of today admitted that they STARTED by watching videos only when there was no instructor available.
> 
> Pat Miletich and Bas Rutten come to mind as two very successful guys who openly stated this. Bas Rutten mentions that he had no ground experience at all but would watch videos and read books and then work on the moves with a friend when he was competing in pancrase to learn how to deal with the grapplers. Bas Rutten was quite successful at this before deciding to seek some level of formal instruction.
> 
> So there is something to this video training when nothing else is available. It's kind of strange question to ask if there is a tape trained champ of a professional endeavor. If your a champ that means you have sponsors, which equals money for and access to instruction. How about guys that are professional now who had success early before they had qualified instruction. Again many MMA fighters have stated in interviews that they initially learned their ground game from tapes before they could get sponsored or afford high quality instruction. Makes ya wonder.


 
Yes, but you're making the "anything is better than nothing" argument. I think that the real point here is that one should try to get decent live instruction if possible and that video training is no substitute for it. Also, there are other numerous problems with video training that come to mind such as developing bad habits.

If you learn a take-down, for instance, and make it work passibly well against your friends in the backyard, and you practice it that way for months or longer the way you learned it will become ingrained in your nervous system. Now, let's say you finally do get to a point where you can get live instruction and you find out that you're doing it wrong and that the right way works much much better than how you've been doing it. You now have to un-learn the old way and learn the new way. Now, how many of the techniques that you learned off of video are like that? How much time and energy was wasted in learning it wrong? How much agonizing re-learning will need to take place once you start training live?

Now, here's another scenario. Let's say that your options are 1) Train live with a qualified Hapkido instructor, or 2) Video train Kenpo in your backyard with friends. Which do you think is the better choice?

It seems if video was good enough, then Rutten etc. wouldn't have sought out live training later when they could. I wonder if they had to un-learn anything when they started getting live training?


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 23, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Yes, but you're making the "anything is better than nothing" argument. I think that the real point here is that one should try to get decent live instruction if possible and that video training is no substitute for it. Also, there are other numerous problems with video training that come to mind such as developing bad habits.
> 
> If you learn a take-down, for instance, and make it work passibly well against your friends in the backyard, and you practice it that way for months or longer the way you learned it will become ingrained in your nervous system. Now, let's say you finally do get to a point where you can get live instruction and you find out that you're doing it wrong and that the right way works much much better than how you've been doing it. You now have to un-learn the old way and learn the new way. Now, how many of the techniques that you learned off of video are like that? How much time and energy was wasted in learning it wrong? How much agonizing re-learning will need to take place once you start training live?
> 
> ...


 
You're absolutely right, I do lean towards the anything is better than nothing side.  I prefer real live instruction.  But a tape can teach alot too or a book for that matter otherwise schools wouldn't require tapes and books to the extent that they do.  They serve their purpose, to convey information it is the individuals job to absorb the information just like in a college classroom.  The professor provides the information, the student absorbs what he can and uses various means to help out such as tapes, books, internet, other professors, tutors, office hours, etc.  Minor point though.  If your doing something and it works is it really wrong? or is there just a better way? there's a HUGE difference between effective and MOST effective. *Also the original premise of the thread was the stated fact that NO schools are available how about video in the mean time. Not let's choose video over a live instructor.*

True story.  As a 1st Brown in kenpo I looked in the infinite insights to Kenpo and saw that Mr. Parker wrote that a student should know "Form 5".  At the school I was at I wouldn't learn that form until 2nd Black.  So I went home that night and taught myself Form 5 out of the book with no pictures and having never seen the form before.  I came to class the next day and told my instructor I wanted to show him form 5.  he said sure thinking I meant a piece of it.  When I showed him the whole thing he was amazed that I could do the whole form especially after only one night of work.  He spent the next 2 weeks cleaning errors in transitions and explaining why the transitions were that way.  I learned so much more from having learned something incorrectly and then having corrected than I would have just learning the correct way.  Sometimes there is just as much to learn in experiencing how not to do something as there is in learning how to do it.  And I was also VERY close to having an accurate form from a book, imagine if I could have SEEN what the form looked like in a video and then APPLIED with some friends.  Though not perfect it would have at least been effective.  And effectiveness is what really matters in some cases, not professional grade skill or perfect form.


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## Danjo (Aug 23, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> You're absolutely right, I do lean towards the anything is better than nothing side. I prefer real live instruction. But a tape can teach alot too or a book for that matter otherwise schools wouldn't require tapes and books to the extent that they do. They serve their purpose, to convey information it is the individuals job to absorb the information just like in a college classroom. The professor provides the information, the student absorbs what he can and uses various means to help out such as tapes, books, internet, other professors, tutors, office hours, etc. Minor point though. If your doing something and it works is it really wrong? or is there just a better way? there's a HUGE difference between effective and MOST effective. *Also the original premise of the thread was the stated fact that NO schools are available how about video in the mean time. Not let's choose video over a live instructor.*
> 
> True story. As a 1st Brown in kenpo I looked in the infinite insights to Kenpo and saw that Mr. Parker wrote that a student should know "Form 5". At the school I was at I wouldn't learn that form until 2nd Black. So I went home that night and taught myself Form 5 out of the book with no pictures and having never seen the form before. I came to class the next day and told my instructor I wanted to show him form 5. he said sure thinking I meant a piece of it. When I showed him the whole thing he was amazed that I could do the whole form especially after only one night of work. He spent the next 2 weeks cleaning errors in transitions and explaining why the transitions were that way. I learned so much more from having learned something incorrectly and then having corrected than I would have just learning the correct way. Sometimes there is just as much to learn in experiencing how not to do something as there is in learning how to do it. And I was also VERY close to having an accurate form from a book, imagine if I could have SEEN what the form looked like in a video and then APPLIED with some friends. Though not perfect it would have at least been effective. And effectiveness is what really matters in some cases, not professional grade skill or perfect form.


 
Well, first off, I think you're the exception to the rule. And from the comments that Doc has made about you, I think he thinks so too. Which means that most people won't be able to do what you did. Also, forms are not fighting.

Next. The original poster said this in his second post: "_the only schools close to me that i can find teach TKD, Hapkido, Han Mu Do, a variation of Shotokan, Tai Chi, Yoga and Kickboxing (aerobic type)._ "

It doesn't sound as if video training is his only option.

Third, you learned from a book and then the _next day_ started getting correction on your form. Not months or years later when the wrong way was fully ingrained into your nervous system. If that had been the case, I doubt that your experince would have been as productive.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 23, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Well, first off, I think you're the exception to the rule. And from the comments that Doc has made about you, I think he thinks so too. Which means that most people won't be able to do what you did. Also, forms are not fighting.
> 
> *Next. The original poster said this in his second post: "the only schools close to me that i can find teach TKD, Hapkido, Han Mu Do, a variation of Shotokan, Tai Chi, Yoga and Kickboxing (aerobic type). "*
> 
> ...


 
*D***, you got me*  

and I agree on the time frame, I'm still unlearning things from 98' and some things from as early as 86'


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## IWishToLearn (Aug 23, 2006)

Josh Oakley said:
			
		

> How'd you manage to whack yourself in the balls????



Easy - tried an under the leg spin from behind me to the front - unfortunately my angle was off by quite a bit. We got a great laugh outta it later.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 23, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> Easy - tried an under the leg spin from behind me to the front - unfortunately my angle was off by quite a bit. We got a great laugh outta it later.


 
Nah your angle wasn't off, your...eh...package is just too big for that maneuver.  Tailoring man, tailoring! LOL


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## Josh Oakley (Aug 23, 2006)

Note to self: wear cup when practicing back-to-front spin under the leg.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 24, 2006)

Josh Oakley said:
			
		

> Note to self: wear cup when practicing back-to-front spin under the leg.


 
LOL!!!!!!!!!


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## IWishToLearn (Aug 24, 2006)

Heh. What's worse was when I tried using the 3 sectional staff. I had that sucker going great, got cocky & tried spinning it in reverse only to lose control of one of the outer sections as I switched hands and nearly kayoed myself when it hit me in the forehead going full tilt boogie. That's an interesting experience. I think I'd rather have Doc tap me on the cheek again.


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## RichK (Aug 24, 2006)

WOW!!! 3-sectional staff, thanks that brought back some bad memories. I remember one time I had ahold of the middle section with the ends spinning and by physics they started closing in on me. So what do you do when you have two large sticks spinning at you by yourself out of control? All I could say was "ouch" THUD!!!!


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 24, 2006)

3 section staff. Good timesgod times. Or maybe not

I took my glasses of my face with those once, training in my backyard at night. I stopped and waited for the inevitable thud of the glasses hitting the ground I waited and waited and waited but I heard nothing. Just as I gave up and figured I would have to look in the morning I heard them hit the grass, those things must have been launched rather high. 

Also I guy I knew that was very good with the 3 section and during a demo in a park in front of a whole lot of people, using the real wooden 3 section staff, not the padded one. He clocked himself in the back of the head and as he said. All I remember is doing the forms and then trying to figure out why I was laying face down on the ground


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## Josh Oakley (Aug 24, 2006)

Note to self: avoid 3-sectional staff as long as possible. and wear a cup whenever being within 4 feet of one. Even if it's just on a rack in the shop.


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## IWishToLearn (Aug 26, 2006)

Yah. I eventually gave up training all "traditional" weaponry except the batons (24" and 8"), 5' and 6' staffs, and the tonfa. I like to roll up a newspaper or a magazine and substitute it for a baton in the attempt to practice using a weapon more readily available to me in society rather than something I'll never see - like a sword, nunchuku, etc. I've taken to removing a shoe and padding my wrist/hand with it when we work on knife training.


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