# Learning by DVDs, eh?



## PrayingMantis (Sep 2, 2006)

This is my first post here at Martialtalk, so 'hello and pleased to meet you' to everyone.

Anyway, here we go.

My background in martial arts started a good number of years ago, when I started learning Kung Fu (Shaolin and Mantis), Tai Chi Chuan and Suijao (not sure if that is spelled correctly, as I have never seen it in print) from a family friend.  During this training I absolutely fell in love with Mantis style - go figure on my username - but because of life getting in the way, my instructor had to move to another state.

Not finding any Kung Fu Sifu/instructors in my area, I just fell out of martial arts for a long time.  A few years ago, at the suggestion of a friend, I joined a local Tae Kwon Do class and stuck with it.  Now I am a 1st Dan with the West Michigan Tae Kwon Do Federation (http://wmtkd.freehosting.net/index.html), have my own students and would not trade it for anything in the world.

That being said, I do really miss my old Kung Fu training - and would love to pick it back up in addition to my Tae Kwon Do.

This got me thinking about training with DVDs.  Normally, I am not a fan of this practice - lack of direct interaction, the high percentage of CRAP that is out there, etc. - so that is why I am putting forth the question here.

What do you all think of the practice of learning via tapes/DVDs?

More specifically, has anyone had any experience with Sifu Funk (http://www.mantiskungfu.com/)?  This second question would probably be more appropriately handled via PM, I am thinking.

Any feedback will help, thanks in advance!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 2, 2006)

I think that it is pretty hard (if not impossible) to do unless you have an instructor regularly checking on you.  You could easily teach yourself the wrong way to do something and have that bad habit for years.  If you are interested in a specific instructor then you should probably travel to them and spend a weekend or week (vacation) learning how they do things and then if they have DVD's for sale you will have a frame of referance to look at them.  Good luck.


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## michaeledward (Sep 2, 2006)

Welcome ... 

There are several threads on the board about learning from DVD. If you search, you will find them. 

Generally, the consesus seems to be that tapes and DVD's can be a good supplement to training. But you need an instructor as the primary source, and for review and feedback.


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## pstarr (Sep 3, 2006)

Yes, they can act as good supplements but definitely not as a primary method of learning...


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## Jonathan Randall (Sep 3, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> I think that it is pretty hard (if not impossible) to do unless you have an instructor regularly checking on you. You could easily teach yourself the wrong way to do something and have that bad habit for years. If you are interested in a specific instructor then you should probably travel to them and spend a weekend or week (vacation) learning how they do things and then if they have DVD's for sale you will have a frame of referance to look at them. Good luck.


 
So true. 

The suggestion of attending classes or workshops THEN purchasing quality DVD's on the system is a good one. However; I do think an independent student can progress with DVD training in an art in which they ALREADY have significant prior training - for example, I bet I could learn the corresponding WTF hyung to the ITF hyungs I already learned via good DVD. I strongly doubt I could learn BBT or Aikido from one, though.


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## PrayingMantis (Sep 3, 2006)

Thank you guys for your feedback - you are pretty much agreeing with what I already thought about learning from DVDs...

...I just was asking out of a little bit of desparation (I really want to train Mantis again); also I was not sure if I was being a bit elitist about the whole subject of tapes/DVDs.

Apparently I was not. :idunno: 

But again, thanks!


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## Aikironin (Sep 3, 2006)

Well keep in mind this, Training with DVD's is like Porn, no one admits to it, but we all somehow know about it.  Seriously though, I would imagine that a lot of practitioners have viewed, bought or owned some sort of MA DVD.  I am secure enough to admit it.  Although I will be honest and say I had been training for like 10 years before I really got into it, and I have only really viewed those within the arts I train in.  I would never imagine that after doing Judo for 15 years I could watch mantis style Gung fu, and delude myself into thinking I could effectively incorporate it into my training.


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## charyuop (Sep 4, 2006)

Hey I admit to porn....it is the best thing lol


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 4, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:


> So true.
> 
> The suggestion of attending classes or workshops THEN purchasing quality DVD's on the system is a good one. However; I do think an independent student can progress with DVD training in an art in which they ALREADY have significant prior training - for example, I bet I could learn the corresponding WTF hyung to the ITF hyungs I already learned via good DVD. I strongly doubt I could learn BBT or Aikido from one, though.


 
You might be able to learn the movements but have an incomplete picture on how to apply them.  Or worse yet you could learn the movements incorrectly and therefore be unable to apply them.  However an advanced student can pick up things easier then someone just beginning.  That is because they have a greater referance point and an understanding of the principles and concepts of movement so I do understand what you are saying.


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## Cryozombie (Sep 4, 2006)

PrayingMantis said:


> More specifically, has anyone had any experience with Sifu Funk (http://www.mantiskungfu.com/)?  This second question would probably be more appropriately handled via PM, I am thinking.
> 
> Any feedback will help, thanks in advance!



Since  Sifu Funk is a 7 star mantis instructor you could maybe PM 7starmantis, hes one of the Asst Admins here and ask if he knows of him... Dunno if he will, but its worth a shot eh?


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## Drac (Sep 4, 2006)

The others have beat me to saying anything useful so I just say congrats on your first post...Read and heed the above posts...


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## IWishToLearn (Sep 12, 2006)

I disagree with a complete novice studying from video, however for those with significant previous experience - it's possible.


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## windwalker (Sep 12, 2006)

Greetings Praying Mantis,

I recently moved to an area that is very limited in MA schools. I had trained for five years in Kenpo before moving.  Last year I rented a DVD on the Tiger and Crane form.  I was merely wanting to see what it looked like but right after I viewed it I was layed off work.  I figured it might be a positive use of my time to at least try to do the form.  It helped relieve the stress of being out of work. 

I realized I could do it, but it took a lot of self motivation and extreme attention to detail.  The videos I now use are Wing Lam Hung Gar.  So far I have found them to be excellent, unfortunately they don't teach Praying Mantis.  I would look for videos that show the movements in detail and describe the hand and foot positions in detail.  They should also have applications included so you know what it is you are doing in the movements.

I would find a partner to practice the applications with.  I practice with my teenage son.  You should have seen the look we got from a neighbor while we were doing the Tiger/Crane sparring set!  I would also video yourself doing the form or movement and compare what you are doing with the DVD.  Some schools will revue them if you send them in (for a fee).  Treat yourself as if you were your own student.  

IMHO since you already know how to defend yourself, this might be a good way to keep your interest alive.  My former instructor always said that we should never stop learning.

All this being said, I argee with the other posters.  Video is not as good as having an instructor who can guide you through the movements.  Since this thread is in beginners corner, I would caution that this is no way for a beginner to learn.  Beginners don't have the training to see the subtleties of movement and position, nor the body awareness to know if they are performing correctly.  I also agree that the style shouldn't be radically different than the style you've had training in.  For me, Hung Gar was not too great a leap from Kenpo.  The Tiger and Crane form was originally part of the system.  I still practice the Kenpo I learned but this new material keeps me challanged, at least until I can find a good school.


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## kingkong89 (Nov 8, 2006)

hello i am also a 1st dan in martial arts. i have seen a lot of things and learnibng form video or dvd's is not har you just want to actually learn. i have a friend of mine who also 1st dan learned a katan kata off of a movie. i have also learned kung fu from movies and have several friends that study the art.


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## Andrew Green (Nov 8, 2006)

It really depends, some people can pull it off, most can't.

Same as other skills, some people can teach themselves to play a instrument, others teach themselves and make people cringe with there "playing"

Some people can teach themselves how to dance, others are "rythmically challenged" like me 

It's going to be hard, and without others people training with you, near impossible to get very good, but if it's something you enjoy, go for it.  But treat it as what it is, a self-taught hobby, and nothing more.


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## Don Roley (Nov 11, 2006)

When you start out, you can't learn from videos. Period.

There are habits that you need to have pointed out and corrected when you start. You don't know you do them, and you don't know what is good and what it bad.

Once you develop the habits of a style, then you can pick up little things from that style from videos. But to start out without someone to catch you when you make mistakes you are not concious of, you build them into you. This can happen even later on, but it a thousand times worse at the beggining.

There are people who have spent their entire career from videos and gotten black belts from them. Every one I know of who has seriously strikes me as seeming to be like Napolean Dynamite's younger brother at the Rex Kwon Do dojo. From where I stand, they are walking examples of what it wrong in the martial arts, but their numbers seem to be rising due to the ease of getting slip shod instruction. Ask them, and they will say they are good. I disagree.


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## IWishToLearn (Nov 11, 2006)

Unfortunately, thus starts the longstanding debate. Yet again.


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## arnisador (Nov 11, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:


> Unfortunately, thus starts the longstanding debate. Yet again.



Well, this is a pretty one-sided debate...the vast majority of practitioners seem to think that learning by video is principally helpful as am adjunct for those with experience, and is not helpful for beginners.


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## IWishToLearn (Nov 12, 2006)

New approaches are quite often panned, and accepted later. I only have a problem with broadly applied statements - it's too much like stereotyping.


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## Fu_Bag (Nov 12, 2006)

I think videos and books are great supplements. They're also fine for trying to pickup ideas and attitudes. I wouldn't use them as a sole training source, however. They can also serve as valuable collaboration and verification tools to clarify a point that was made at a certain training session.

Personally, I'm a little wary of people who say that students should stay away from books and videos produced by the head(s) of whatever art is being studied. It's very easy for an instructor to influence their students and, if the instructor isn't on the level, the students can be lead down the wrong path for years and years without being exposed to "the good stuff". If anything, using books and videos as training supplements can aid in quality control of your training.

I don't think anyone wants to waste training time with someone whose movement and philosophy isn't, at the very least, similar to the head of the art.


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## Tez3 (Nov 12, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> ...... From where I stand, they are walking examples of what it wrong in the martial arts, but their numbers seem to be rising due to the ease of getting slip shod instruction. Ask them, and they will say they are good. I disagree.


 
The joy of that though, as with people who exaggerate their skills, is that they either get found out or find out for themselves. The best way is to invite them to one of your training sessions where, without putting on anything special on for them hopefully they realise where they stand as far as training is concerned. It's a much easier way for them than finding out the hard way in a competition or even worse a brawl or street fight.


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## arnisador (Nov 12, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:


> New approaches are quite often panned, and accepted later.



Very true. Distance learning at the high school and college level continues to gain acceptance.

But, I still say that the general opinion right now is that distance learning for the martial arts, or other physical skills, is of questionable value. Where's the distance learning for basketball?


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## Don Roley (Nov 13, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:


> New approaches are quite often panned, and accepted later. I only have a problem with broadly applied statements - it's too much like stereotyping.



If someone  who has learned from the beggining from videos and later proven to be competent in an art ever comes forward, I will revise my broadly applied statement.

So far, nada. Everyone I know _and respect_ who started out trying to learn from video and later had real instruction has said the same thing. I know a few guys (banned from martialtalk) who might say differently, but I do not respect them or their skills even though they are quite willing to blow their own horn.


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## IWishToLearn (Nov 13, 2006)

Hm. I'm a distance learning Kenpo student. I know for a fact that SGM Parker had a project of several training tapes that were going to be produced. Larry Tatum has been quoted several times about his distance students really surprising him with their performance.

No basketball tapes - that's a team sport. We're individually based. I don't think that's a fair comparison. However, this is a long standing debate which I'm not trying to pursue.

My issue is with people who make no clause for exceptions to "the rule." That's it.


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## Taijiman (Nov 20, 2006)

Martial arts takes at least two.  Maybe a better sport to compare it too would be wrestling   You could learn some exercises and a mental understanding of the basic principles, but your not going to be an actual wrestler without the experience of wrestling with someone else   Asian martial arts are the same way.  Partner work with someone who knows what they're doing is an important part of the martial arts learning experience.  

Of course, the guy that started this thread is pretty experienced, and has kungfu experience too, so I think he could do ok if he gets someone to be a practice dummy that's skilled enough not to get hurt   In general, I don't mind people learning things off dvds as long as they don't try to become a teacher or set themselves up as an expert based entirely on video training.  But I think if you really reach and instructor/expert level in any martial art, you should know enough that you could at least have fun with something from video and not screw yourself up


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## thewhitemikevick (Nov 20, 2006)

Learning any style of Kung Fu from a DVD would pose a real challenge to the student. Of all the martial arts you could have chosen, Kung Fu goes to such depths...and really the complexities in technique seem like they would be almost impossible to learn from a DVD. Especially without an instructor there to help you with the movements...I mean Kung Fu is so kinetic...everything flows together so fluently, and with such elegance...how can you be taught something like that from a DVD? I mean, it might not hurt, but if at all possible, I would suggest finding an instructor. Of course, I'm sure that you probably have already realized all this, and that learning from a DVD at this point and time might be the only resource that you can call upon. Nontheless, I respect the urge to learn. It might be a difficult method, but anything's worth a shot I suppose. I wouldn't count on it's efficiency, though.


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