# Kung Fu Vs.



## 7starmantis (Sep 24, 2004)

I know this topic has been discussed before on a more specific basis, but I'm curious to see what others who practice kung fu (CMA) and those who practice other styles think about this. 

Lately I've been doing alot of "sparring" with a new student of ours who has been training in judo and alot of san shou before joining our school. As most of you know I practice mantis kung fu which relies heavily on its grabs and open hand techniques. Of course our goals are different as his is very much sport and point orriented having done alot of san shou, while mine is strictly realistic "street-orriented" for lack of a better definition. However, the differences in fighting are vast. He focuses on small quick hits to wear down a certain body part (leg, ribs, etc) during the duration of the match. He has great speed and very nice kicks and loves to keep outside at a nice distance. Me on the other hand, I dont use much high kicks, and I really aim to get in as close as possible. With the big gloves on I'm really restricted as to my techniques. If I stayed outside, it was all his fight.

What do you guys think of the differences in styles? What do you think is the most effective way to close the gap? Do you think you should close the gap and get in close at all? How do you deal with fast repeating kicks? How do your kung fu principles relate to this type of fighting?

After we sparred yesterday we took off the gloves and did some chi sou type fighting. The differences were amazing. Once I closed the gap and stuck close it was over, the ability to grab and yield work well in that situation. How would a kickboxer type fighter deal with that close, grabbing, type of fighting? What would be his agenda against someone moving in close and applying chin na and sweeps and pressure points?

Any ideas?


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## DeLamar.J (Sep 24, 2004)

I think the only answer is to cross train. The more versitile you are the better, because your opponent is always going to get you where they want you eventually if they are decent, and vice versa. I have recently been sparring with a very good Wing Chun fighter, as long as I can keep him back and jab out while throwing kicks I have the advantage, but sooner or later the gap will be closed and then its my turn to take some punishment. So needless to say I am cross training in Wing Chun now, because we realized we can learn alot from each other. 
I recomend cross training with the guy who is your opposite, you both will benifit greatly. I always thought I was a good boxer in close but I learned real fast that boxing is not much of a match for a good Wing Chun fighter up close, they can trap you up and use alot techniques that a boxer is not used to. I had no idea what I was getting myself into fighting up close, I really had no idea what was happening to me, I just knew I was getting spanked. Then we started to cross train and he shows me all of the dirty little Wing Chun tricks. Those Wing Chun guys are dirty, dirty I tell ya!! :angry: 
When we are at medium to long range I have the advantage, but you cant keep the gap forever, and he cant stay on top of me forever, so we cross train and share techniques.


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## RHD (Sep 24, 2004)

I really think what you guys are doing is great.  It's good experience for yourself and your training partner, and it's good for your peer to witness.  I take a different approach however, when it comes to learning to deal with the specialties.  My preference is to stick with one style, continue to engage in the crosss-style exchanges, and learn how my system, and my abilities can overcome the strengths of my training partner's style and their abilities.  This is not to say that I frown on cross training...There is definately a value in it.  It's just that after @ 15 years in one system, I'm still learning about it and it's endless possibilities.

Mike


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## 7starmantis (Sep 25, 2004)

Yeah, I think cross training can be a great tool and a good way to get well versed in many styles. My only problem with cross training is that it tends to make it easy to overlook learning a specific technique really well. See, if something isn't working right you can just cross train and then you have something different to use instead of the thing that wasn't working. I'm of the opinion you should stay right there with the thing that isn't working and understand it enough to apply it properly so that it does work. Other than that, I have no problem with cross training except that I think people go about it way to soon. Also, to define cross training I wouldn't consider fighting or "sparring" with someone cross training. 

If this guy I'm fighting is beating me on the outside game, I need to learn how to stick better, when he gets a good kick in and I've really applied my principles and yielded to the kick and stuck to him, then when he pulls his kick back in I move in with it. Then its my game again. I just dont see how me going and training in kickboxing or something is going to help me learn how to deal with that outside game using the principles of kung fu. I would be ignoring the problem area by learning another way or an easier way to deal with it.

7sm


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 25, 2004)

The gloves restrict much of what you might do without them, or at least make it harder to reconise the technique.  Getting inside, where you might like to be, is a practice of quick movements ( skips, hops, slides ) done when your opponet is attacking or setting from his movement. 
Use a couple of strikes then get out or pursue him and never let him back into his comfort zone. 
Practiceing with someone who spars/fights in a 180 degree area from what you like to do is one of the best ways to improve your attack zone.


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## DeLamar.J (Sep 25, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Yeah, I think cross training can be a great tool and a good way to get well versed in many styles. My only problem with cross training is that it tends to make it easy to overlook learning a specific technique really well. See, if something isn't working right you can just cross train and then you have something different to use instead of the thing that wasn't working. I'm of the opinion you should stay right there with the thing that isn't working and understand it enough to apply it properly so that it does work. Other than that, I have no problem with cross training except that I think people go about it way to soon. Also, to define cross training I wouldn't consider fighting or "sparring" with someone cross training.
> 
> If this guy I'm fighting is beating me on the outside game, I need to learn how to stick better, when he gets a good kick in and I've really applied my principles and yielded to the kick and stuck to him, then when he pulls his kick back in I move in with it. Then its my game again. I just dont see how me going and training in kickboxing or something is going to help me learn how to deal with that outside game using the principles of kung fu. I would be ignoring the problem area by learning another way or an easier way to deal with it.
> 
> 7sm


Yes, some people go about it waaay to soon, you must have a very solid base in your first style or you will undo or unlearn all of the progress that you have made in that style, becoming a jack of all trades master of none. 
I have cross trained in boxing, ju jitsu, and now wing chun. The only really solid base I have is in go ju karate. However the ju jitsu, boxing, and wing chun really help me out and makes it easier to find all new possibilities. I think boxing is one of the best things to cross train in because its hard contact, and very straight forward. Boxing will teach you very quick because you will get lumps on your face for making stupid mistakes, unlike alot of martial arts. 
The ju jitsu was very helpful to me also, even though I dont a a very solid base in that style. I have used it effectively many times, I basicly just wrap my body around one limb and twist it in a way that causes pain. Im not that great at it but I can twist some people up good if they make stupid mistakes while grappling. 
The wing chun however seems like it has a huge learning curve. But I love it. I know this sounds wierd but I enjoy being beat down by a wing chun fighter, the whole time Im like WOW! that was a nice technique. Show me paaaalease!


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## RHD (Sep 25, 2004)

DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> Yes, some people go about it waaay to soon, you must have a very solid base in your first style or you will undo or unlearn all of the progress that you have made in that style, becoming a jack of all trades master of none.
> I have cross trained in boxing, ju jitsu, and now wing chun. The only really solid base I have is in go ju karate. However the ju jitsu, boxing, and wing chun really help me out and makes it easier to find all new possibilities. I think boxing is one of the best things to cross train in because its hard contact, and very straight forward. Boxing will teach you very quick because you will get lumps on your face for making stupid mistakes, unlike alot of martial arts.
> The ju jitsu was very helpful to me also, even though I dont a a very solid base in that style. I have used it effectively many times, I basicly just wrap my body around one limb and twist it in a way that causes pain. Im not that great at it but I can twist some people up good if they make stupid mistakes while grappling.
> The wing chun however seems like it has a huge learning curve. But I love it. I know this sounds wierd but I enjoy being beat down by a wing chun fighter, the whole time Im like WOW! that was a nice technique. Show me paaaalease!



Nice Thread.

One thing about cross training...
You can learn things from other systems that give you insights into your own system.  Things you may not necessarily be able to learn from your sifu or peers.  I strongly urge everyone to exchange as much as possible with other systems after developing a strong base in your own.

Mike


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 12, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Yeah, I think cross training can be a great tool and a good way to get well versed in many styles. My only problem with cross training is that it tends to make it easy to overlook learning a specific technique really well. See, if something isn't working right you can just cross train and then you have something different to use instead of the thing that wasn't working. I'm of the opinion you should stay right there with the thing that isn't working and understand it enough to apply it properly so that it does work. Other than that, I have no problem with cross training except that I think people go about it way to soon. Also, to define cross training I wouldn't consider fighting or "sparring" with someone cross training.
> 
> 7sm


Heck yes close the gap!!! That _is _how you've trained best to fight right! I was going to say that if his feet are an issue, take out his legs asap. But the way you go about that is going to depend on your sparring goals and ring apps and street are going play differently..as you said.. A good take down or ( what the hell is that stomp kicked called??? I'm sorry.very tired) . This guy being judoka though it's going to come down to speed. AS long as you're in close, the sanshou ( providing you can get the takedowns or stomp ( excuse sacrelige) from more mid range ) is probably not such a big issue. 

What sort of kicks are we talking ( height/ type? being it'll dictate how to approach them and how to best close the gap) . Being sanshou, I'd expect he'd likely be big on low rounds and though I'm sure you have defence for that, I'd still get in close and begin the take down but I'd be more likely to go in with a lateral shin defence before I slipped in for the reap. 

btw : I think you can effectively cross train via sparring with someone outside your own system _providing_ you discuss the differences and drill your new techs.  For example in Guanzhou recently I was cross training my tkd / dimmak / nth shaolin / aikido with a sth shaolin/ xingyi shifu and in the trade off noticed his side kick was different and looked stronger, yet he was open through his torso and respectively open to a host of strikes and gave me a larger margin to play with.  It wasn't until we took to the bags and went for drills that I realised exactly where the difference laid and how to best use each version treating them as different kicks altogether, his over chambering  on the tkd side and obviously pistoning in lieu of the tkd follow through side, though really tkd chamber with piston / tkd chamber with follow through / and his version make 3 total and 4 if you use his with a follow through ( though why in crimineys you'd want it I haven't quite worked out yet) .  You're right though, by only sparring I wouldn't 've gotten that.

cheers

BL


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## thekuntawman (Nov 14, 2004)

i dont think you have to cross train to improve your fighitng. what you did by sparring with the classmate is good. what i think will benefit you more is to spar with him and other people, as many people that you can, more often. this will help you get use to using what you specialize in doing (mantis style) against a real opponent who does not want to get hit. 

san shou is no more realistic than mantis (or anyother traditional) kung fu style. the advantage this classmate has, is that he is use to throwing what he was training to throw against live opponents. i have met some very good seven star guys who were very good fighters, and they did not have to study somebody else's method to get good. 

so it would be good to cross train, but cross train by sparring other people and styles, not to learn there way of fighitng, but to learn how to beat it.


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## 7starmantis (Nov 15, 2004)

Good post. I agree with you, I just tend to use the word cross-train as meaning actual learning of another style. Me fighting with someone of another style is just part of what helps increase my skill in my opinion. If you never put your skill to test against that of a different style or fighter, you are really lacking something in my opinion.

Good post

7sm


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 15, 2004)

and being some arts lack various components, like grappling, feet strikes, ground fighting, cavity srtiking and so forth, I just like to know personally, form preservation aside , that I've covered my bases.


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## sifu Adams (Nov 16, 2004)

7*  first I would like to learn more about the 7 star system.  I do southern mantis from Gin foon Mark and northern form Haing The.  I believe I have seen where you have said in other post that having to many kata's dosn't help you.  well This is where I feel it has helped me.  My northern style  of mantis has the high kicking in it, as well as trapping and evading moves for the high kicks. the southern style I believe is more like yours.  The southern dose not kick above the waist and the elbows are in ect... what I have found is to watch the shoulders and pinatrate with a short distance strike before the your opponet can get the kick started.  you can also look to kick just above the hip of the kicking leg to stop the momentem of the kick.  Once you get the first strike in, as master mark would say, "you end it".  we like to get our opponet behind the punch, this is where we are in so tight and striking so fast that the opponet will throw the block a 1/4 of a secend after you hit him.


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## 7starmantis (Nov 17, 2004)

I'm not familiar with Haing The, what style of northern mantis is it? Yeah, 7* is really a northern style I believe but our training tends to lend itself closer to southern for some reason. I dont really remember saying that about forms, but what I believe about them is that they are great and 7* does have alot, but they are not what the system is all about. Its a principle system, not simply a collection of techniques or forms. I do think it helps to have alot of forms at least in getting lots of techniques, but I would rather be really great at one or two than just ok at 20 or 30. 

IMHO,
 7sm


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## sifu Adams (Nov 17, 2004)

7* sorry maybe it was someone else that said that about the forms.  Hate to open this up but.   Master Hiang The' is the brother of Master Sin The' of the Shoalin do system.  We don't train under Sin The' for reasons I rather not talk about.  The mantis we do is liget.  by all means.  However I could not tell you were it comes from.   The Kicks that I am talking about is head level.  the thrust has a instep kick to the oppist side of the head followed by a spinning hook kick to the other.  I say its liget because of the fallowing.  first anchent styles mimicked the anamils to a "t"  our do that.  At no point do we not look like the Mantis.  the moves are based on the 3 tech.  which from what I read is a common number for shoalin forms.  every move has a porpose.  and the form teaches you not only how strike but how to set up your opponet using wieght placement, grabs, throws, and lead in tech.  Which tells me that how ever made this form they were well trianed in the shaolin arts and beliefs.  I would also ask this question  We know that many of the arts like TKD, karate have came from shaolin  if this is true why do they kick head level.  Don't you think that the oraganial styles of these systems would look like us?


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## RHD (Nov 17, 2004)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> The Kicks that I am talking about is head level.  the thrust has a instep kick to the oppist side of the head followed by a spinning hook kick to the other.



Sorry...I'm not a Northern style practitioner but this sounds very TKD like and not very CMA like.  A good practitioner of any Chinese style begs for an opponent to attack them like that becasue they're giving up their root for you. 

Sin The's brother... :uhyeah:...Yikes.  I don't mean to be insulting, but that's like opening a can of worms inside a can of worms.


Mike


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## sifu Adams (Nov 17, 2004)

Yes I know all about the Sin the.  its sad because the system is powerful and I have had other master and grand master out side the system that have seen the forms (done right) and will tell you the system is a true shaolin.  they are nothing like TKD.  not even close.  I would love to elabrate on the system but I would refuse to get into a name calling thread.  I do have some insight that would stir some people but I could back mine up with facks.  all aside As for the waiting for a attack.  I would question that.  southen mantis which has nothing to do with any form of TKD or Shaolin do will tell you the best defence is not to get hit if that means striking first then you do.  this is not tournament fighting I am talking about.


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## RHD (Nov 17, 2004)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> Yes I know all about the Sin the.  its sad because the system is powerful and I have had other master and grand master out side the system that have seen the forms (done right) and will tell you the system is a true shaolin.  they are nothing like TKD.  not even close.  I would love to elabrate on the system but I would refuse to get into a name calling thread.  I do have some insight that would stir some people but I could back mine up with facks.  all aside As for the waiting for a attack.  I would question that.  southen mantis which has nothing to do with any form of TKD or Shaolin do will tell you the best defence is not to get hit if that means striking first then you do.  this is not tournament fighting I am talking about.




Hey Sifu Adams,
As I said, I don't mean to be insulting.  Master Gin Foon Mark gets all of my respect.    Southern Mantis is an widely recognized no-nonesense fighting system.  I get skeptical when people talk of spinning kicks to the head in CMA.  I've never heard of Sin The's brother.  If his mantis is legit, he's going to have a hard time shaking certian stereotypes and perceptions.  

Mike


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## sifu Adams (Nov 17, 2004)

RHD you are not going to insult me by talking about Sin or Hiang The.  I have train in the system and its sad that the student of both sides can't work together.  Gin foon mark came down to my instructors gym in eastern Ky and the first thing he did was look around the gym as all the Photo of the Shaolin master (Shoalin do) and he also said like everyone "Shaolin Karate?"  my instructor walked to the center of the gym and preformed the Iron Man internal Kata.  Master Mark said "that's Shaolin".  That's was all he said about the so called Shaolin Do System.  Master mark also talked about the anchent styles of shoalin being to open with high kicks.  I wish we could find more on the history of the The' brothers system because I feal there is a lot more to the system than meet's the eye.  thats why I got on MT I thought some of you may be able to help me trace the history of some ot the forms.


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## clfsean (Nov 18, 2004)

Ok... I'll toss a bone in ... the Iron Man form,  San He (San Njie). 

It's a pretty common form in southern KF circles, especially those from around the Fujian area. It made its way to Okinawa & became Sanchin. Wuzu Quan (Ngo Cho Kuen) calls it Sam Chien. Click on the first clip... it's the Fujian White Crane version, San Jan. http://www.yongchunbaihechuen.com/videos.html 

Check that out. There are decided similarities between that & the SD version of it. Good luck with anything else. If you want, feel free to PM me.


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## Black Tiger Fist (Nov 27, 2004)

RHD said:
			
		

> Sin The's brother... :uhyeah:...Yikes. I don't mean to be insulting, but that's like opening a can of worms inside a can of worms.
> 
> 
> Mike


 
LOL yeah that is pretty funny.:uhyeah: 


jeff


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## Black Tiger Fist (Nov 27, 2004)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> RHD you are not going to insult me by talking about Sin or Hiang The. I have train in the system and its sad that the student of both sides can't work together. Gin foon mark came down to my instructors gym in eastern Ky and the first thing he did was look around the gym as all the Photo of the Shaolin master (Shoalin do) and he also said like everyone "Shaolin Karate?" my instructor walked to the center of the gym and preformed the Iron Man internal Kata. Master Mark said "that's Shaolin". That's was all he said about the so called Shaolin Do System. Master mark also talked about the anchent styles of shoalin being to open with high kicks. I wish we could find more on the history of the The' brothers system because I feal there is a lot more to the system than meet's the eye. thats why I got on MT I thought some of you may be able to help me trace the history of some ot the forms.


 
I don't doubt that story ,but it's only because so much of what Shaolin-Do teaches is borrowed from other styles. So Master GFM could've seen one of your forms and said that because it was a borrowed form.

I know that Shaolin-Do teaches other forms i have vid of a Shaolin-Do stylist doing Hung Gar's Fu Hok (tiger-crane) form. He was taught this as a Shaolin-Do form.

I won't go into anything negative about Shaolin-Do because it's not my place ,plus who wants to hear another Shaolin-Do discussion?!?!?:idunno: 

I will say this though the mantis i have seen Sin The' himself do is unlike any mantis i've ever seen.:mst: 

jeff


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## Matt Stone (Nov 27, 2004)

I'll apologize (half-heartedly) ahead of time if I come across too "authoritarian" with this post...

#1 - Kicking to the head anytime other than when your opponent is on the ground and therefore close to your feet is a poor, poor decision.  Unless the attacker is a buffoon, and the defender an amazing speciment of conditioning and training, the kick won't land and will open the kicker up for no end of pain.

#2 - Cross-training is a good thing, but shouldn't be undertaken until a person has had sufficient time in training their base style.  I agree fully that cross-training can open your eyes to things already contained in your own style, but you won't fully appreciate that until you know enough about your style to make the connection.

#3 - Cross-training is a bad thing if undertaken too soon.  "Jack of all trades, master of none" gets nobody anywhere.  A good style, taught by a good teacher, trained against live, resisting opponents, is far more useful and productive than dancing around from dojo to dojo learning a kick here, a punch there, etc.  Learn to use what you already know.  When what you know is fully understood, then go play with others.

#4 - In a style with a self-proclaimed forms library of over 500 forms, it is unlikely that those forms are "Shaolin" in origin, necessarily (and please note the spelling of Shaolin - it takes away from the legitimacy of your comments when you can't even spell the name of your own style).  Certainly many martial arts came from other countries, originally, but the Shaolin temples *were not* the birthplace of every martial art.  Early Chinese arts, especially the Shaolin arts, have strong ties to Indian yoga and martial dance.  Korean arts have strong Chinese ties, and with the historical and anthropological movement from Korea to Japan, there is a strong argument for the influence Korea had on Japan as well as the well documented influence that Japan had on Korea.  The indigenous Okinawan arts, coupled with the Chinese influence through trade, had their own impact on Japanese development...  The list goes on.  Bottom line, Shaolin wasn't the hotbed of martial development that your story would indicate.

My work here is done...   :asian:


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## Black Tiger Fist (Nov 27, 2004)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> #1 - Kicking to the head anytime other than when your opponent is on the ground and therefore close to your feet is a poor, poor decision. Unless the attacker is a buffoon, and the defender an amazing speciment of conditioning and training, the kick won't land and will open the kicker up for no end of pain.


Not true!

I agree that kicking to the head is not always a good idea ,but there are times when it can be pulled off on an opponent ,the trick is knowing the time and the opponent to pull it on.

I have a friend that is a MMA champion ,and he pulls off high kicks in MMA matches ,because noone expects someone to try such a kick.




			
				Matt Stone said:
			
		

> #4 - In a style with a self-proclaimed forms library of over 500 forms, it is unlikely that those forms are "Shaolin" in origin, necessarily (and please note the spelling of Shaolin - it takes away from the legitimacy of your comments when you can't even spell the name of your own style). Certainly many martial arts came from other countries, originally, but the Shaolin temples *were not* the birthplace of every martial art. Early Chinese arts, especially the Shaolin arts, have strong ties to Indian yoga and martial dance. Korean arts have strong Chinese ties, and with the historical and anthropological movement from Korea to Japan, there is a strong argument for the influence Korea had on Japan as well as the well documented influence that Japan had on Korea. The indigenous Okinawan arts, coupled with the Chinese influence through trade, had their own impact on Japanese development... The list goes on. Bottom line, Shaolin wasn't the hotbed of martial development that your story would indicate.
> 
> My work here is done... :asian:


Agreed,

But alot of shaolin arts carry the shaolin name because that's where they were exchanged between different stylist ,so they became known as shaolin arts.

Black Tiger being a good example Sil Lum Hak Fu Muhn (Shaolin Black Tiger) is what it's known as ,but it's well known that Su Hak Fu created Hak Fu Muhn. After creating his art it was at onetime only taught to Shaolin Monks ,thus the Shaolin name ,so the samething has happened with other styles and arts as well.

Now what Sin The' says is just in a word "crazy" i mean to say you have over 900 forms is just out there. My sigung Grandmaster Wong Cheung taught Black Tiger in thirds because he felt that 80 forms was just too much for one person to contain in his head.

So how The' can contain over 900 is beyond my realm of thinking.:erg:


jeff


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## 7starmantis (Nov 28, 2004)

Black Tiger Fist said:
			
		

> I will say this though the mantis i have seen Sin The' himself do is unlike any mantis i've ever seen.:mst:


  As in good like you've never seen or bad?



			
				Matt Stone said:
			
		

> I'll apologize (half-heartedly) ahead of time if I come across too "authoritarian" with this post...


  Lol, no need to appologize.



			
				Matt Stone said:
			
		

> #1 - Kicking to the head anytime other than when your opponent is on the ground and therefore close to your feet is a poor, poor decision. Unless the attacker is a buffoon, and the defender an amazing speciment of conditioning and training, the kick won't land and will open the kicker up for no end of pain.


 I completely agree with you, with one exception. If your head is low enough for me to kick you in it without kicking over my waiste, I'm going to nail you there. In the mantis system we do alot of "plucking" or low attacking that will lower your head waist level, then I'm going to use the head kick. Standing up head kick....I agree with you 100%.

  7sm


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## Black Tiger Fist (Nov 29, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> As in good like you've never seen or bad?
> 
> 7sm


As in BAD!!!! like i've never seen.


I know he has a small clip up of him doing mantis ,i'll get the link and post it here for you to see.


jeff


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## Black Tiger Fist (Nov 29, 2004)

Ok here we go ,you'll need the Divx bundle to play these.

http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/avi/MantisPick&PlayGonzales_noaudio.avi


http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/avi/tanglang_noaudio.avi


jeff


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## 7starmantis (Nov 29, 2004)

WOW. 

  Who is that exactly do you know? Is that Sin The's student? Is that a shaolin-do student or form? 

   7sm


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## sifu Adams (Nov 29, 2004)

just have a couple of things to say. first you must have never spared any one that know how to kick.  and it would be a joy to spar you if you really believe that noone can kick you to the head. that would be great to learn.  

 As for the spelling sorry I see things backwords and it causes me to have trouble spelling.  but are you really relying on my spelling to tell how well the system is?  

  My instuctor had only studied the Shaolin do system for 25 years before he met Master Gin foon Mark.  Only after 3 days he was training directly under Master Mark.  How many of you have trained directly under Master Mark?  My instructor Master Shane Hamilton is now a deciple under master mark.  This would lead me to believe their is a little bit more to the Shaolin do art than it looked like another system. 

Has anyone spared the student of the Shaolin do systme? or are you basing everything off a video and Post like this?


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## Matt Stone (Nov 29, 2004)

I watched a brown belt class at the Colorado Springs Shaolin-do school run by a husband and wife partnership...

There were three brown belts all chasing one brown belt into a corner (he was running for his life).  Once he was in the corner, he used the ancient Shaolin "fetal position of death" to endure the beating the other three laid on him...

I was impressed, really, just not in a favorable way.


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## sifu Adams (Nov 29, 2004)

You watched one brown belt class and made your mind up.  I invite you to any of my classes, not to fight but to learn about the system and let me show you how we do it.  Believe me it is a lot differnt that Sin's Group.  I would have never put three brown belt sparing each other anyway.  I will also tell you that the way the system was taught before we changed it the no aplication was showed out to lower rank which ment you had to black belt before you learned how to use the forms.  you are more than welcome to come take a class or watch a class any time no cost.  I believe you shouldn't talk about a system or anything unless you have a good understanding and have been trained in a system.  If you would like to learn email me and we will set a time.


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## Matt Stone (Nov 29, 2004)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> You watched one brown belt class and made your mind up.



I don't have to submit myself to years of dog bites to learn I don't like being bitten by dogs...



> I will also tell you that the way the system was taught before we changed it the no aplication was showed out to lower rank which ment you had to black belt before you learned how to use the forms.



That is a method of instruction I don't agree with...  Withholding information until someone proves themselves "worthy" somehow, or by waiting until they are a senior student, does little other than water down what the junior students are doing.  If they are questionable students to begin with, it is unlikely they will train adequately enough to benefit from anything they are taught, regardless of its "level."



> you are more than welcome to come take a class or watch a class any time no cost.  I believe you shouldn't talk about a system or anything unless you have a good understanding and have been trained in a system.  If you would like to learn email me and we will set a time.



Given that I currently live in WA, and am soon moving to Korea, I doubt I'll be taking you up on the offer.  Further, I've been doing Yiliquan since 1985, and I don't feel a real need to take up Shaolin-do no matter who it is being taught by.

Thanks anyway.


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## sifu Adams (Nov 29, 2004)

that is what I thought. noone is ever willing to learn. O'well case closed.


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## TigerWoman (Nov 29, 2004)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> I will also tell you that the way the system was taught before we changed it the no aplication was showed out to lower rank which ment you had to black belt before you learned how to use the forms.



Of course, I also agree that those that do high kicks well, use them effectively and anyone reading this might think, oh TKD, but if you train that strength regularly you do get very good at timing.  Also, our school, TKD, used to give out material to the level of the rank and not told much about it.  They couldn't handle too much though as a beginner.  But that changed.  We teach now, including application, as to how ready they are for more.  I'm glad you changed your system too. TW


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## Matt Stone (Nov 29, 2004)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> that is what I thought. noone is ever willing to learn. O'well case closed.



Because, of course, I'd drop everything, move to Ohio, leave the military, relocate my family, etc., all just to study Shaolin-do or whatever it is you do?

I don't think so.

Don't question my willingness to learn...  I've studied widely, in the US and overseas, and I plan on continuing to do so.  But I pick and choose what I want to train in, and I won't train in an art just to validate my opinions on it.  I saw some of the training, I wasn't impressed.  Asking me to train in an art before I form an opinion is like saying I should buy a car without getting the blue book information or an accident history...  Unwise on both counts.


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## sifu Adams (Nov 29, 2004)

I didn't say leave everything.  I just think you need to be open minded on things.  I may question a art but it is only to learn.  to make a comment like no one should kick to the head, does not make since to me.  their are times when I will kick to the head, and there are times I will kick low but it all has to do with who I am sparring, there stance, weight placement.  I stuided Mondern arnis under the direction of Prof. Ramy. and he helped us understand our art better than anyone.  everything he did we had seen before. what we saw as a punch and a kick he showed as a lock and a throw.  I don't think there is one style better than any other. its all about what you put in it.  but if you lock yourself in a box and don't take the time to learn then you may set your self up to fail.  I have also travaled many places. that dosen't make me any better and dosen't mean I can't learn from others.  Their is more to a fight than kicking and punching.  In the military your not taught to run and shoot.  you are taught stagity and you have a plan based off of your study of  the enimey.  You look at there defence and you break it down using your training.  Would you ever go into battle not having any clue about who you are fighting?    Would you go into battle thinking you could win after only seeing 4 people out of the whole army fight?  If not why would you in the martial arts?  I joined MT so I could learn more about the other styles how they think, what tech they use, the history of thier systems. I may never use it but it helps me learn.  Do you train how to block a kick?  If noone ever throws akick at you head level how do you know you can block it?  I know some TKD student that can kick hard and fast at head level.  I have learned a great deal on how to defend from a TKD kick but that only come from having a skilled TKD student throwing the kick.  just something to think about.


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## Black Tiger Fist (Dec 2, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> WOW.
> 
> Who is that exactly do you know? Is that Sin The's student? Is that a shaolin-do student or form?
> 
> 7sm


 
I can't see the video right now because i'm at work ,but one of them is Sin The' if not both i can't remember,the older looking asian guy is him.

Here's a link to some of their forms ,i'll only say this. Their Black Tiger "IS NOT" Shaolin Black Tiger!!!

http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/clips.htm


jeff


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## sifu Adams (Dec 2, 2004)

Black Tiger Fist,
    why do you say that thier black tiger form is not Shaolin Black tiger?  have you seen all the Black tiger that the shaolin has to offer or is their something that stands out in the form that say this is not shoalin Black tiger? I would really like to hear how the differance and the data that supports that statment.


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## RHD (Dec 2, 2004)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> Black Tiger Fist,
> why do you say that thier black tiger form is not Shaolin Black tiger?  have you seen all the Black tiger that the shaolin has to offer or is their something that stands out in the form that say this is not shoalin Black tiger? I would really like to hear how the differance and the data that supports that statment.




I think what BTF is trying to say here is that it bears little in common with the Black Tiger System.  In other words, it's a form called black tiger that appears to be completely unrelated to the Black Tiger system that he's learned.  Perhaps a comparison video clip could be posted.

On another note, I can do just about anything in a form layout and call it shaolin.  It woud be equally difficult to prove that it either is, or isn't shaolin since most everything these days claims to have some shaolin in its history.


Mike


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## Black Tiger Fist (Dec 2, 2004)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> Black Tiger Fist,
> why do you say that thier black tiger form is not Shaolin Black tiger?


Sifu Adams,

No offense to you ,so sorry if you feel i'm picking on your style.

But, one style i do know without a doubt ,is Sil Lum Hak Fu Muhn (Shaolin Black Tiger) I'm a disciple of C.Kuen Woo ,who was Grandmaster Wong Cheung's top disciple ,and chairman of the Black Tiger Assocation.

I know all the original core Shaolin Black Tiger sets ,and "NONE" of those vids on that site are Shaolin Black Tiger ,nor do they resemble Shantung Black Tiger or Fu Jow Pai- Tiger Claw Black Tiger.

Now there are other Black Tiger styles that exist that are not CMA ,but  those are the three known Black Tiger styles with our lineage leading directly to Su Hak Fu himself ,and the Shaolin temple.




			
				sifu Adams said:
			
		

> have you seen all the Black tiger that the shaolin has to offer or is their something that stands out in the form that say this is not shoalin Black tiger?


Actually ,i have seen "ALL" the Shaolin Black Tiger sets!

Because if you know anything about Shaolin Black Tiger ,you would know there were only 5 fist sets before Fung Ping-Wai and Wong Cheung added more sets to it.




			
				sifu Adams said:
			
		

> I would really like to hear how the differance and the data that supports that statment.


As i stated i'm a disciple of the only known disciple of Grandmaster Wong Cheung teaching Black Tiger in the world!

Most Black Tiger stylist choose to take their knowledge to the grave with them.

Shaolin Black Tiger is a very rare and secretive system ,but if you know the style it has a distinct flavor that can be noticed right away. Also there are many things that Shaolin Black Tiger is famous for ,and Sin The's Black Tiger doesn't have any of those things.

Namely the 9 Armed Grinder Dummy and there is also a distinct Shaolin Black Tiger salute or bow. The bow has always been used to distingush a Black Tiger Stylist ,and brother in Hung.

Not to mention Black Tiger's known spiritual side ,just to name a few.

jeff


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## Black Tiger Fist (Dec 2, 2004)

RHD said:
			
		

> I think what BTF is trying to say here is that it bears little in common with the Black Tiger System. In other words, it's a form called black tiger that appears to be completely unrelated to the Black Tiger system that he's learned. Perhaps a comparison video clip could be posted.
> 
> On another note, I can do just about anything in a form layout and call it shaolin. It woud be equally difficult to prove that it either is, or isn't shaolin since most everything these days claims to have some shaolin in its history.
> 
> ...


Very true indeed!

Here's a clip of the first Black Tiger form Hak Fu Ching jhong (Black Tiger Front Dummy) ,since RHD asked about a vid clip being posted.

This vid has been edited and is done without power or speed but it was done that way so you could see the techniques.


http://members.lycos.co.uk/shaolinblacktiger/images/Front%20Dummy.wmv


jeff


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## sifu Adams (Dec 3, 2004)

Black Tiger Fist,

   You haven't offended me I just would like to know how it differant for your style.  I hear all the clams and no one back them up.  don't worry about upseting me.  I have trained in the system for years and most don't understand it.  Most of the background if faded (I believe it's because Sin and Brother Hiang didn't ask questions of where thingscame from)  I have two of the black tigers forms. the wounded has the movements of a tiger or cat of some type.  Idon't believe that they were made up by the brothers however if it is not black tiger them what is it?  I can show you many fighting applications out of both forms and you the body movements look like cat movements.  so what other forms of tiger could it be?  I am looking to gain knowlage not argue oppion of the style.  I would be interested in hearing all the differnts in the black tiger.  I have seen in other parts of the system (more with sin than Hiang) where it seems the kata was incomplete or they may have forgot a part.  Master Hiang was the note keeper I have seen all the notes on the forms he has.  Sin just fought a lot.


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## Dronak (Dec 4, 2004)

I haven't read through everything here, just did a quick skim.  And this has probably been said already, so I'm not sure it's of much use at this point, but . . .  I would think that if you find that you can't easily deal with certain types of attacks/defenses from an opponent, you may need to train in some other style to gain the knowledge, techniques, and practice you need to be able to deal with them.  You noted that, "If I stayed outside, it was all his fight."  Now, I don't really know you or anything, but to me that suggests that long range fighting gives you some difficulty.  I understand that different styles tend to focus on different aspects of fighting.  But ideally they should give you the knowledge you need to deal with all aspects, even if at a very basic level.  Since this may not happen, learning multiple styles will help you fill in the gaps.  For myself, the tai chi I've learned seems to like closer range fighting while the kung fu I've learned is supposed to focus a bit more on longer range fighting (it's "long fist" after all).  However, it's all generally striking -- I don't really see how any of this would deal with grappling, throwing, or ground fighting.  I'm also a beginner and will admit that it may be in there somewhere and I just don't see it.  But if I were more into learning MA for real fighting, I'd probably be looking to learn some other style that would give me more knowledge and experience in those areas.


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## RHD (Dec 4, 2004)

Dronak said:
			
		

> For myself, the tai chi I've learned seems to like closer range fighting while the kung fu I've learned is supposed to focus a bit more on longer range fighting (it's "long fist" after all).  However, it's all generally striking -- I don't really see how any of this would deal with grappling, throwing, or ground fighting.  I'm also a beginner and will admit that it may be in there somewhere and I just don't see it.  But if I were more into learning MA for real fighting, I'd probably be looking to learn some other style that would give me more knowledge and experience in those areas.



That's interesting Dronak.
Give this a little bit of thought...

The long fist that you have learned can actually be used quite effectively at close range, the name doesn't necessarily mean _long range fist_.  Try not to think of applications as the fist at the end of the arm, but as the whole body.  Your opponent can get caught up in those moves like a big meat grinder.  This is where you'll find a lot of your locks, throws, and takedowns.  The sensitivity and sticking that you're learning in tai chi can really help out in this area, but I disagree with the idea of cross training to fill in gaps.  I say, look within before combining parts of other styles.


Mike


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## Dronak (Dec 4, 2004)

Well, you have to remember that I'm a beginner and probably will consider myself as such for a long time to come.  There are probably aspects of the style that I don't grasp because I haven't practiced and studied it enough.  But some of my tai chi books have talked about how felling techniques or chin na techniques are included in the form, so I've seen some of it there.  The same may hold for the kung fu I learned.  I still get the impression that ground fighting is its own area though.

FWIW, an intro sheet we got says (modifying the grammar a bit), "Long-Fist style emphasizes kicks over hand techniques.  Such a long-range system stresses full extension of the limbs so that kicks and punches are extended as far as possible without compromising balance or power."  Certainly it's not all like that, we do have elbow strikes in forms, for example, but I thought that the focus was long range fighting.  I could be wrong though.  I didn't learn or do quite as much as some of the others in the class (by choice, I didn't feel ready to move that fast), so I could have missed some things they learned and for all I know it could have included things like this.

I will agree that it's useful to look within your own style to see what else is there beneath the surface, but that probably requires a fair amount of practice and experience before you can find it.  If you're just looking for basic proficiency so as not to be caught off-guard, cross training may be better, faster, easier, choose an ajective.  I think your goals will help you decide how you go about training.


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## 7starmantis (Dec 4, 2004)

Dronak said:
			
		

> I will agree that it's useful to look within your own style to see what else is there beneath the surface, but that probably requires a fair amount of practice and experience before you can find it. If you're just looking for basic proficiency so as not to be caught off-guard, cross training may be better, faster, easier, choose an ajective. I think your goals will help you decide how you go about training.


 I think it doesn't require practice and understanding on your part as much as having a good teacher who understands it and can then explain and teach you. Thats the key in my opinion. Basic proficiency so as not to be caught off guard can be from your taiji or your kung fu; I dont think you need another style for that. If you switch to another style wont you run into the same issue? Cross training can be a good thing, but not before you have a good grasp on your current system, in my opinion. As far as the adjectives you listed, I dont think better really goes with faster necessarily. Maybe faster and easier, but not necessarily better.

   JMHO,
   7sm


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## Black Tiger Fist (Dec 7, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I think it doesn't require practice and understanding on your part as much as having a good teacher who understands it and can then explain and teach you. Thats the key in my opinion. Basic proficiency so as not to be caught off guard can be from your taiji or your kung fu; I dont think you need another style for that. If you switch to another style wont you run into the same issue? Cross training can be a good thing, but not before you have a good grasp on your current system, in my opinion. As far as the adjectives you listed, I dont think better really goes with faster necessarily. Maybe faster and easier, but not necessarily better.
> 
> JMHO,
> 7sm


True!






			
				sifu Adams said:
			
		

> Black Tiger Fist,
> 
> You haven't offended me I just would like to know how it differant for your
> style. I hear all the clams and no one back them up. don't worry about
> ...


 
Well, for one you're right!

The Black Tiger forms i've seen of Shaolin-Do look very incomplete. They do use the fu jow hand technique ,but fu jow does not a tiger style make. It's funny you mention cat style because it resembles a cat more than a tiger or lion movement ,but that could just be the way the person playing the form did it?!?!?!

I noticed many things in watching the forms that just was not in line with any southern based tiger styles i know. The stances,movements,techniques i'm not saying it can't be a tiger based styles form ,it's just not a Black Tiger form. 

If it is??

It was part of a form and it was played very badly.

I'll have to see the forms played again ,it was so long ago i can't remember to much about them.


jeff


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## te75uo (Dec 8, 2004)

I am in the Shaolin Do school in Charleston West Virginia. I am only a blue belt, and have alot to learn.
We have learned one Tiger kata; Fei Foo Tzu Tung, Flying tiger came out of the cave. It does not look anything like the videos posted earlier, both the Shaolin Do one, and the other. It feels complete to me, and my teacher explains what all of the movements are for.
 Also I noticed that with some of the videos on the Shoalin Do site that the instructor does not put his heart into the movements. That bothers me expecially since several of the videos are done by one of the teaching black belts. I also noticed he does several things wrong. I feel that when doing forms you should put your all into them, because they are an exercise, and how can you exercise by not getting in low stances, snapping punches/kicks correctly, and not moving the hips correctly.


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## sifu Adams (Dec 8, 2004)

It has been said by Grand Master Ie Ching Ming the grandfather of the brothers that GM Ie travaled all over northern china.  could it be a nothern form of a black tiger?


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## InvisibleFist (Jan 5, 2005)

Its likely that there are more than one styles/forms called "black tiger."  


Hung gar has several movements with the name "black tiger".


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## InvisibleFist (Jan 5, 2005)

RHD said:
			
		

> Sorry...I'm not a Northern style practitioner but this sounds very TKD like and not very CMA like. A good practitioner of any Chinese style begs for an opponent to attack them like that becasue they're giving up their root for you.
> 
> 
> Mike


Ever see Northern Shaolin?  They loooove to do all that TKD jumping spinning tornado stuff!


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## InvisibleFist (Jan 5, 2005)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> I'll apologize (half-heartedly) ahead of time if I come across too "authoritarian" with this post...
> 
> #1 - Kicking to the head anytime other than when your opponent is on the ground and therefore close to your feet is a poor, poor decision. Unless the attacker is a buffoon, and the defender an amazing speciment of conditioning and training, the kick won't land and will open the kicker up for no end of pain.


You've obviously never sparred a Northern Shaolin or TKD practioner.  I agree that high kicks are of limited utility on the street, but we are talking about sparring here.  There's a reason that the kickers own the tournaments.  




			
				Matt Stone said:
			
		

> #4 - In a style with a self-proclaimed forms library of over 500 forms, it is unlikely that those forms are "Shaolin" in origin, necessarily (and please note the spelling of Shaolin - it takes away from the legitimacy of your comments when you can't even spell the name of your own style).


This is just goofy.  They're not Shaolin because they have too many forms?  

Let me ask you this, is Hung Gar Shaolin?  Few people would deny it.  Yet its core forms were coreographed by Wong Fei Hung AFTER the burning of the temple. 

Is Wing Chun Shaolin?  Of course it is, but it didn't take the form it currently has until Ng Mui shaped it. 

Shaolin was a university of martial arts.  Yes, not every style begain their, but retired warriors came their to teach. So other styles became part of the Shaolin body of knowlege.  

All Chinese martial arts are either Shaolin (buddhist) or WuDang (Taoist).  Saying "Shaolin" is like saying "Kung Fu"...its a very generic term for a wide range of styles.


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## Black Tiger Fist (Jan 5, 2005)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> It has been said by Grand Master Ie Ching Ming the grandfather of the brothers that GM Ie travaled all over northern china. could it be a nothern form of a black tiger?


Yes,

Shantung Black Tiger is a Northern Black Tiger Style.

I think it maybe a totally different systems Black Tiger not CMA ,but maybe from other areas? There are several Black Tiger systems from outside of CMA. I've seen Shantung Black Tiger as well as Fu Jow Pai Black Tiger ,and Nam Sil Lum Hak Fu Pai.  The forms i've seen don't resemble any of those CMA Black Tiger Styles.

jeff


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## Black Tiger Fist (Jan 5, 2005)

InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> Its likely that there are more than one styles/forms called "black tiger."
> 
> 
> Hung gar has several movements with the name "black tiger".


Correct!!

But Hung Gar also has a tie into Sil Lum Hak Fu Muhn (Shaolin Black Tiger) Su Hak Fu was one of the Ten Tigers Of Kwantung (Canton) with Wong Kie Yin (Wong Fei Hung's father).

Wong Fei Hung also learned Hak Fu Muhn.

That is well known history!

jeff


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## Infrazael (Mar 24, 2005)

On cross training, I believe that certain arts provide you with bonus material to increase the raw, overall power of your primary art.

For example, boxing is an excellent way to increase your strength. Even if you do not use tons of hooks, punching all day is going to do some good.

Peace.


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## 7starmantis (Mar 24, 2005)

Infrazael said:
			
		

> On cross training, I believe that certain arts provide you with bonus material to increase the raw, overall power of your primary art.
> 
> For example, boxing is an excellent way to increase your strength. Even if you do not use tons of hooks, punching all day is going to do some good.
> 
> Peace.


 True, but I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't need to cross train, you should be punching all day with your primary art, you dont need to go train in boxing for that if your allready doing it. 

  7sm


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## Infrazael (Mar 24, 2005)

But then again, cross training is not the same thing as mixing everything together, as seen in JKD or MMA?

Also, what about serious GnP fighters or submission fighters??? How would you defend yourself if a BJJ practitioner actually GOT you onto the ground?

I plan on learning BJJ not to mix it together with Kung Fu, but if I ever get attacked by a skilled grappler I'll be able to handle myself on the ground just as well as standing up.


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## 7starmantis (Mar 24, 2005)

Infrazael said:
			
		

> But then again, cross training is not the same thing as mixing everything together, as seen in JKD or MMA?
> 
> Also, what about serious GnP fighters or submission fighters??? How would you defend yourself if a BJJ practitioner actually GOT you onto the ground?
> 
> I plan on learning BJJ not to mix it together with Kung Fu, but if I ever get attacked by a skilled grappler I'll be able to handle myself on the ground just as well as standing up.


 Its not? Whats the differance in cross training and "mixing it all together"? If you train in it aren't you going to use it when fighting? 

 As far as actually getting taken to the ground by a ground fighter, I do that all the time. Your Kung Fu principles will work the same standing up or on the ground. If your training is complete enough to include ground fighting why would you _need_ to cross train? You dont need BJJ to be able to handle yourself on the ground, but you do need a teacher that is experienced and can teach you ground fighting, and you need to fight on the ground alot.

  7sm


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## rox (Mar 24, 2005)

I agree with 7*, you don't need to add movements from other arts, you just need to find what in your own art can do the work.

I think that cross training is important to find the flaws in your personal style, so that you can find in your overall style the tools that you're missing. If you're style is too specific, you will need to complete with outside stuff, but I guess that is not often the case on kung fu.


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## Hammer Head (Mar 25, 2005)

Cross training.... Yes, it can be done. But it is best to learn one style really well and specialize in it. Then the process of learning from other systems and styles becomes more meaningful. If your main style is "close range", then try a longer range style. Grappling and qinna should also be a part of the mix.

 Aside from that it's important to make the distiction of "sparring" with "real fighting". What may work in a sparring session will not necessarilly work in a "real time" situation.

 Train, as if your life depended on it!


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## Isrephael (Mar 25, 2005)

I definitely lucked out when I found my current Kwoon.  Most everyone there has a background in other arts.  The Si Bok is primarily a CMA practitioner, but has also trained in Judo, Aikido, TKD, western boxing, BJJ, and... and.. and... the man is a walking dictionary.  He can explain how most any technique works against [Martial Art X]  and how [Martial Art X] would respond to any given technique.
Our school is basically a "when you want to learn how to REALLY fight; when you wish to learn how to apply what you know to the street: study here" school.  And, so, when it is time to spar, we have students with past training in TKD, Karate, Greco-Roman Wrestling, Western Boxing, Police Submission training, Military combat experience, and I think there's even a bit of the Egg Foo Yung and Tom Yum Goong.
Each sparring partner brings a whole different hand of cards to the table, and it's very satisfying to see which card trumps what.


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