# WTF Kukkiwon Dan holder to ATA Dojang?



## memory1179 (Nov 27, 2018)

Hi, I'm new to this forum. I am thinking of restarting Taekwondo and I would like to ask some questions and gain some advice from you.

I have a Kukkiwon Dan certificate from South Korea. I was trained before during my youth in a WTF Dojang (Dojo) and during my military service there as my unit required everyone in the battalion to hold at least 1st-degree black belt from WTF.

Years have passed since then, and I am thinking of going back to a Dojang to practice my taekwondo as a form of lifestyle, something I can do to keep myself healthy. I want to go to a WTF affiliated Dojang but there isn't one around in a convenient location near my home, and I found a Dojang that I like which happens to be an ATA affiliated one. I've done some research to find out that despite the same origin, ATA and WTF don't share Poomsae or training.

Now, here are the questions:

1) has anyone had a similar situation where you would join ATA after having being trained and certified in WT?

2) What was your experience like?

3) Does ATA honor your WTF Dan certificate or do you have to start over?


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## skribs (Nov 27, 2018)

memory1179 said:


> Hi, I'm new to this forum. I am thinking of restarting Taekwondo and I would like to ask some questions and gain some advice from you.
> 
> I have a Kukkiwon Dan certificate from South Korea. I was trained before during my youth in a WTF Dojang (Dojo) and during my military service there as my unit required everyone in the battalion to hold at least 1st-degree black belt from WTF.
> 
> ...



I would talk to the owner of that school and see what his policy is.

If it was the other way around (you had an ATA black belt and came to our KKW/WTF school), what would probably happen is that we would treat you like a black belt (i.e. how we show respect to you), but then put you in our red belt class and have you test for the KKW black belt.

So even if your Dan rank doesn't carry over, you can probably join in at a higher belt level because of your understanding of the techniques and catch up on the forms.  Or you can start over as a white belt and learn everything they have to teach as they teach it, and hopefully test fast because you have a good understanding of many of the stances and techniques already.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 28, 2018)

How many years has it been since you've trained? Depending on the length of time, you may not want to have your rank honored, empty cup and all that. Plus even within styles, a BB doesn't mean the same thing. In one school you can earn it in 2 years, in another it could take five. The rank itself doesn't matter, the important thing is that you don't go in assuming you're an expert in their style, because you're likely not.


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## dvcochran (Nov 28, 2018)

memory1179 said:


> Hi, I'm new to this forum. I am thinking of restarting Taekwondo and I would like to ask some questions and gain some advice from you.
> 
> I have a Kukkiwon Dan certificate from South Korea. I was trained before during my youth in a WTF Dojang (Dojo) and during my military service there as my unit required everyone in the battalion to hold at least 1st-degree black belt from WTF.
> 
> ...


The forms are quite different. So is the curriculum. So much so that you may find it easier to start fresh from white belt, or at least a lower belt. Depending on how long it has been you should find the learning easier compared to someone who has never had MA exposure. This may allow you to advance quicker but that would be up to the school/instructor. 
Welcome to the forum. I hope you keep us in the loop.


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## Balrog (Nov 29, 2018)

memory1179 said:


> Hi, I'm new to this forum. I am thinking of restarting Taekwondo and I would like to ask some questions and gain some advice from you.
> 
> I have a Kukkiwon Dan certificate from South Korea. I was trained before during my youth in a WTF Dojang (Dojo) and during my military service there as my unit required everyone in the battalion to hold at least 1st-degree black belt from WTF.
> 
> ...


I run an ATA school.  Whenever I have someone come in who has earned Black Belt rank in another style, I always offer them the option of wearing their belt or starting over at White Belt with us.  Every single one, so far, has opted to start over as a White Belt.

Given their prior training, these folks will pick up our lower rank forms very quickly, until they get up to a level with us that was equivalent to where they left off.  They then fall right in step with our training, as if they had been with us from day one.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 29, 2018)

Balrog said:


> I run an ATA school.  Whenever I have someone come in who has earned Black Belt rank in another style, I always offer them the option of wearing their belt or starting over at White Belt with us.  Every single one, so far, has opted to start over as a White Belt.
> 
> Given their prior training, these folks will pick up our lower rank forms very quickly, until they get up to a level with us that was equivalent to where they left off.  They then fall right in step with our training, as if they had been with us from day one.



That's how we do it, too. And I've noticed the same thing. The ones who want to wear their old rank don't stay around long. The ones who strap on the white belt do.


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## skribs (Dec 17, 2018)

Balrog said:


> I run an ATA school.  Whenever I have someone come in who has earned Black Belt rank in another style, I always offer them the option of wearing their belt or starting over at White Belt with us.  Every single one, so far, has opted to start over as a White Belt.
> 
> Given their prior training, these folks will pick up our lower rank forms very quickly, until they get up to a level with us that was equivalent to where they left off.  They then fall right in step with our training, as if they had been with us from day one.



How long would it take someone to go from White Belt to 3rd Degree black belt doing this?


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## skribs (Dec 17, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> That's how we do it, too. And I've noticed the same thing. The ones who want to wear their old rank don't stay around long. The ones who strap on the white belt do.



Is there a difference between someone who does KKW or ITF TKD, someone who does Karate, and someone who does something completely different like BJJ?

If I were to go to an ATA school from a KKW school, it would be because I moved or because my school closed down and I need a new place to train.  If I'm looking for a new style to supplement what I know, I'll make a bigger change than going from KKW to ATA.

I'm also curious how much of it was the students having the arrogance to keep their belt, or if there was any pushback on them being outsiders (i.e. "you don't know Form X? You should know that if you're a black belt").


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## Balrog (Dec 18, 2018)

skribs said:


> How long would it take someone to go from White Belt to 3rd Degree black belt doing this?


It depends solely on the person and their capability.  I would certainly imagine that it would take less than half the time that someone with no previous experience would take.


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## dvcochran (Dec 18, 2018)

skribs said:


> How long would it take someone to go from White Belt to 3rd Degree black belt doing this?


Two years to 2nd Dan, 3 years to 3 Dan. So I think it would depend on how long it takes them to get proficient to 1st Dan. Six years minimum I would hope.


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## dvcochran (Dec 18, 2018)

skribs said:


> Is there a difference between someone who does KKW or ITF TKD, someone who does Karate, and someone who does something completely different like BJJ?
> 
> If I were to go to an ATA school from a KKW school, it would be because I moved or because my school closed down and I need a new place to train.  If I'm looking for a new style to supplement what I know, I'll make a bigger change than going from KKW to ATA.
> 
> I'm also curious how much of it was the students having the arrogance to keep their belt, or if there was any pushback on them being outsiders (i.e. "you don't know Form X? You should know that if you're a black belt").


I think your last paragraph would be heavy on the school owner/instructor. They can either navigate something like you mention with their other students or just not let it happen at all.


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## skribs (Dec 18, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Two years to 2nd Dan, 3 years to 3 Dan. So I think it would depend on how long it takes them to get proficient to 1st Dan. Six years minimum I would hope.



Other than the forms and sparring rules, how much is different from ATA to KKW?

If it's going to take me 6 years minimum to catch up to where I am now, I'd rather just take a different art completely.


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## pdg (Dec 19, 2018)

Some organisations will do a conversion transfer to the equivalent rank - I've heard of the kkw granting some dan ranks to itf holders (subject to agreeing to teach to their curriculum) and the other way around.

Maybe ATA would do the same, maybe not...


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> Some organisations will do a conversion transfer to the equivalent rank - I've heard of the kkw granting some dan ranks to itf holders (subject to agreeing to teach to their curriculum) and the other way around.



As I understand it, the KKW does this routinely (and not just with ITF practitioners) as part of their Borg initiative.
They do require you to agree to teach the KKW curriculum, but of course there is no way to enforce that.


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## dvcochran (Dec 19, 2018)

skribs said:


> Other than the forms and sparring rules, how much is different from ATA to KKW?
> 
> If it's going to take me 6 years minimum to catch up to where I am now, I'd rather just take a different art completely.


Very. A totally different set of Poomsae,  sparring and from the few dozen ATA schools I have worked out at the training style and self defense practice is different. I would say pure SD has more of an emphasis. 
If someone could face pace to 3rd Dan much faster than that, I don't know how much value I would put in it.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 19, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Very. A totally different set of Poomsae,  sparring and from the few dozen ATA schools I have worked out at the training style and self defense practice is different. I would say pure SD has more of an emphasis.
> If someone could face pace to 3rd Dan much faster than that, I don't know how much value I would put in it.



Meh. I'm going to disagree. Strongly.
Changing from one style of TKD to another is no big deal. I have rank from the KKW, the ITF and the MDK. Honestly, if someone had a reasonable level of skill and training in one, they should be able to transition to another in a very short time. Because they're not learning a new art. They'd have to learn a new set of sparring rules. And new forms. But (again, the assumption is they're fairly advanced) those forms aren't likely to contain much, if any, new material. They're just putting things they already know in a different order. When I decided to get KKW rank it took me 2-3 weeks to learn their curriculum.


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## WaterGal (Dec 19, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> As I understand it, the KKW does this routinely (and not just with ITF practitioners) as part of their Borg initiative.
> They do require you to agree to teach the KKW curriculum, but of course there is no way to enforce that.



Yeah, I think they offer transfer testing to ATA dan rank holders as well, actually. I do remember reading they specifically don't allow it for people who only have an "in school rank", because anybody can print up a certificate on their computer saying they have a 13th degree black belt from Bob's Traditional TKD Academy. So it does need to be a transfer from another organization, but I think there's a few different organizations they accept.


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## skribs (Dec 19, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Meh. I'm going to disagree. Strongly.
> Changing from one style of TKD to another is no big deal. I have rank from the KKW, the ITF and the MDK. Honestly, if someone had a reasonable level of skill and training in one, they should be able to transition to another in a very short time. Because they're not learning a new art. They'd have to learn a new set of sparring rules. And new forms. But (again, the assumption is they're fairly advanced) those forms aren't likely to contain much, if any, new material. They're just putting things they already know in a different order. When I decided to get KKW rank it took me 2-3 weeks to learn their curriculum.



We had a couple kids come to our KKW school, their previous experience was in Shotokan Karate.  They came in at the belt they earned and pretty much fit right in.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> We had a couple kids come to our KKW school, their previous experience was in Shotokan Karate.  They came in at the belt they earned and pretty much fit right in.



One caveat to what I posted is that the person is going to have to put in some work during those few weeks. If they do, learning new forms is pretty easy, and they'll likely fit in just fine. If they just come to class and do no work on their own, then they're not likely to last.


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## dvcochran (Dec 20, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Meh. I'm going to disagree. Strongly.
> Changing from one style of TKD to another is no big deal. I have rank from the KKW, the ITF and the MDK. Honestly, if someone had a reasonable level of skill and training in one, they should be able to transition to another in a very short time. Because they're not learning a new art. They'd have to learn a new set of sparring rules. And new forms. But (again, the assumption is they're fairly advanced) those forms aren't likely to contain much, if any, new material. They're just putting things they already know in a different order. When I decided to get KKW rank it took me 2-3 weeks to learn their curriculum.


I do not know the OP's level of experience so I was trying to look at if from a lesser level of experience. ATA has fewer forms as I remember so that would also shorten the acclimation for a person of rank.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 20, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I do not know the OP's level of experience so I was trying to look at if from a lesser level of experience. ATA has fewer forms as I remember so that would also shorten the acclimation for a person of rank.



He says explicitly that he has a 1st Dan. Of course, he says it's from the WTF (which never issued rank) so who really knows...
I suspect from his OP that he's got a KKW 1st Dan, and hasn't trained in quite some time.


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## pdg (Dec 20, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> He says explicitly that he has a 1st Dan. Of course, he says it's from the WTF



That's not quite what he said...



memory1179 said:


> I have a Kukkiwon Dan certificate


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 20, 2018)

memory1179 said:


> I was trained before during my youth in a WTF Dojang





memory1179 said:


> my unit required everyone in the battalion to hold at least 1st-degree black belt from WTF.





memory1179 said:


> I want to go to a WTF affiliated Dojang





memory1179 said:


> Does ATA honor your WTF Dan certificate





pdg said:


> That's not quite what he said...



Actually, it is.


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## pdg (Dec 20, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Actually, it is.



Ok, I'll try again.

That's not _only_ what he said.


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## skribs (Dec 20, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Actually, it is.


He says he has at least a first dan.  By what you quoted, anyway.


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## Shawchert (Dec 20, 2018)

ATA is an affiliate from ITF but even so WTF is not too much more different in how they learn their kicks and punches besides the rules in sparring and the types of kicks and punches, I believe WTF is more into kicking while ITF and ATA focus highly on blocks and punches. Of course each school is different in what they teach as well but I think the general thing about it is learning their forms and what they require for a testing and to be able to know it up to that belt might keep you at your dan status. I have had a 17 year hiatus but I was able to find and ITF school and he brought me back to my green belt level after my 3 day trial period. I have a friend in NC that goes to a school for WT and goes to another school for ITF and he was brought to the same belt level as the highest of his schools (I can't remember which one). 

So in my opinion if you can show that you still retained the knowledge of what you've learned before and show willingness to learn what the other school teaches I don't see why you can't keep your belt or even go to a slightly lower belt. Hopefully you can find a WT dojang around though it's always nice to stay in the tradition you are used to! *hopefullyy this is understandable... i think I rambled a little bit*


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 20, 2018)

pdg said:


> Ok, I'll try again.
> That's not _only_ what he said.



No, it's not. Which is why I said he seemed confused about what he has.



skribs said:


> He says he has at least a first dan.  By what you quoted, anyway.



Yeah. I know. I'm not the one confused. 



Shawchert said:


> ATA is an affiliate from ITF



This is completely wrong. While it's true that things like the GTA were derived from the ITF, the ATA is totally different. One way you can tell is by the fact that ATA schools practice different forms.



> but even so WTF is not too much more differen



There is no such thing as WTF taekwondo. Never has been. 
The WT (it's not even called the WTF anymore) is purely a sports governing body. It has no curriculum, no schools, and awards no rank. It supervises competition. That is all.


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## skribs (Dec 20, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Yeah. I know. I'm not the one confused.



This means he's at least first dan.  He could be 2nd dan, 3rd dan, or higher.  He hasn't explicitely said he's 1st dan.

I'm mainly picking nits here.



> There is no such thing as WTF taekwondo. Never has been.
> The WT (it's not even called the WTF anymore) is purely a sports governing body. It has no curriculum, no schools, and awards no rank. It supervises competition. That is all.



I'm going to disagree with this.  For one, even though the name has changed from WTF to WT, it's still the same organization, and organizations tend to get called their old name.  For example, one of the branches of the IT department has changed from "Information Assurance" to "Cybersecurity" about 5 years ago, and we still call them "IA".  There's also the joke of the "ATM Machine" (as everyone calls them), which is the Automatic Teller Machine Machine if you actually follow the logic.

If someone says WTF TKD, you know exactly what they're talking about, even if WT is the more correct term.

With that said, there is a heavy integration between KKW and WT.  They have a symbiotic relationship with each other.  The KKW schools teach techniques and tactics to use in WT sparring, and the WT poomse competition rules focus on forms learned in the KKW curriculum.

If the KKW decided all of a sudden, instead of the Taegeuks, we're going to do the Skribs pattern of forms (which, if I may use my completely unbiased opinion, would be by far the best forms ever used in any martial art), then the WT rules would change to accommodate the Skribs forms in addition to or instead of the Taegeuks.

Alternatively, if WT changes their sparring rules, KKW schools adapt their sparring training to comply with the new rules, and to teach the strategies that open up as a result of the rule change.

Similarly, if one organization just quit, the other would take a serious blow and need to regroup.  If the KKW went away and all of the schools had to decide whether to re-register under ATA or ITF, create their own new organization, or run unaffiliated, then the WT would need to look at reaching out to the other organizations.  It would be a significant shift in their target audience.

And if the WT suddenly decided to stop governing tournaments, then the KKW schools would be training in vain for competitions that do not exist (at least as far as the competition-related training they do).  The KKW would then need to govern sparring rules or leave the sparring curriculum up to the local masters, or would need to find another organization to run tournaments to complement the KKW curriculum.

However you look at it, yes they are two different organizations, but they're two different organizations like the Navy and Marines are two different organizations.  Technically separate, yet integrated and dependent on each other.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> If someone says WTF TKD, you know exactly what they're talking about, even if WT is the more correct term.



No. WT Taekwondo is the equally _*IN*_correct term.



> With that said, there is a heavy integration between KKW and WT.  They have a symbiotic relationship with each other.  The KKW schools teach techniques and tactics to use in WT sparring, and the WT poomse competition rules focus on forms learned in the KKW curriculum.



Other way 'round. The KKW curriculum doesn't teach what the WT wants. WT currently says "we judge KKW forms only" and goes from there.



> If the KKW decided all of a sudden, instead of the Taegeuks, we're going to do the Skribs pattern of forms (which, if I may use my completely unbiased opinion, would be by far the best forms ever used in any martial art), then the WT rules would change to accommodate the Skribs forms in addition to or instead of the Taegeuks.



I have no opinion on the usefulness of the Skirbs patterns, but your assertion about how WT would respond to fundamental changes is unsupported (and unsupportable) by any actual evidence.



> However you look at it, yes they are two different organizations,



Exactly. Which means there's no such thing as WT Taekwondo. I'm glad we can agree on this basic issue.
Especially since WT makes it quite clear on their site that there is no such thing.



> but they're two different organizations like the Navy and Marines are two different organizations.  Technically separate, yet integrated and dependent on each other.



Go ask a Marine what it's like to be in the Navy. When he corrects you, tell him it doesn't matter and see how well that works for you.


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## skribs (Dec 20, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> No. WT Taekwondo is the equally _*IN*_correct term.



In the piece you quoted, I said "WT" not "WT Taekwondo".  And how is either incorrect?



> Other way 'round. The KKW curriculum doesn't teach what the WT wants. WT currently says "we judge KKW forms only" and goes from there.



That is what I said.  " WT poomse competition rules focus on forms learned in the KKW curriculum."  How does that not mean what you say?  You have the forms learned in the KKW curriculum, and the WT poomse rules focus on those forms.



> I have no opinion on the usefulness of the Skirbs patterns, but your assertion about how WT would respond to fundamental changes is unsupported (and unsupportable) by any actual evidence.



That's...not what you just said in the previous quote.  If they say "we judge KKW forms only" and those were KKW forms, then WT would respond to them.



> Go ask a Marine what it's like to be in the Navy. When he corrects you, tell him it doesn't matter and see how well that works for you.



Okay, maybe I chose a bad example.

My point is

If you say you're taking "WTF TKD" or "WT", then you're saying you're learning the KKW forms and WT sparring.
If you say you're taking "KKW TKD", then you're saying you're learning the KKW forms and WT sparring.

Either way you say it, it ends up being the same thing.  If I say I'm training KKW TKD, WTF TKD, WT, WT TKD, however I say it, people know what I mean.  There is no question in any of those as to what I mean.

And as to "WT" vs. "WT Taekwondo", that's because "WT" by itself could mean a lot of things:  WT - Definition by AcronymFinder

If you say "WT Taekwondo", it contextualizes what "WT" you're talking about.  Where I work, people have both a password and PIN.  If I say PIN, they go "is that the number or the password?"  So I started saying "PIN Number", which is technically incorrect, but clues people in exactly what I mean.

Now I do get every once in a while the smart aleck who will say "my Personal Identification Number Number?"  But that happens far less than "number or password?" that we had before.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> In the piece you quoted, I said "WT" not "WT Taekwondo".  And how is either incorrect?



If you don't understand it by now, you may never. 



> That's...not what you just said in the previous quote.  If they say "we judge KKW forms only" and those were KKW forms, then WT would respond to them.



I was imprecise. Mea culpa. What WT actually says is "we judge the taegeuk forms for colored belts, and Koryo, Keumgang [...] for Dan ranks". 



> Okay, maybe I chose a bad example.



No, you chose a perfectly fine example. Not the same group means.... not the same group.



> My point is
> 
> If you say you're taking "WTF TKD" or "WT", then you're saying you're learning the KKW forms and WT sparring.
> If you say you're taking "KKW TKD", then you're saying you're learning the KKW forms and WT sparring.




If you say you're taking "WTF TKD" you're just wrong. Because there is no such thing. Show me a WTF rank certificate. 
If you're studying KKW TKD and all you're learning is Olympic style sparring, then I'm very sorry for you. You're missing out on about 75% of what the Art of TKD has to offer.


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## CB Jones (Dec 20, 2018)

Every time I see this post in passing my first thought is it says.....

*What The F... Kukkiwon Dan holder to ATA Dojang?*

**


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 20, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Every time I see this post in passing my first thought is it says.....
> 
> *What The F... Kukkiwon Dan holder to ATA Dojang?*
> 
> **



That is actually one of the primary motivators behind changing the name to WT.


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## skribs (Dec 20, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> If you don't understand it by now, you may never.



I could say the same to you.



> I was imprecise. Mea culpa. What WT actually says is "we judge the taegeuk forms for colored belts, and Koryo, Keumgang [...] for Dan ranks".



And why is that?  Because the KKW does.  If the KKW changed, why _would _WT poomse rules not change with them?



> If you say you're taking "WTF TKD" you're just wrong. Because there is no such thing. Show me a WTF rank certificate.
> If you're studying KKW TKD and all you're learning is Olympic style sparring, then I'm very sorry for you. You're missing out on about 75% of what the Art of TKD has to offer.



So it has to have a rank certificate to exist?  Why do WT tournaments use KKW dan ranks to set up their brackets?

I never said KKW TKD only studies Olympic sparring.  I said that's the sparring ruleset they primarily train for.

If you're not sure what I mean when I post, please ask for clarification instead of assuming I'm wrong.


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## Shawchert (Dec 20, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> This is completely wrong. While it's true that things like the GTA were derived from the ITF, the ATA is totally different. One way you can tell is by the fact that ATA schools practice different forms.



Just because the forms are different doesn't mean they did not come from ITF roots, from what I've read they changed their forms because they believed ITF did not start kicks early enough in their forms and wanted to change that, but still taught tkd traditionally in itf fashion.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 21, 2018)

skribs said:


> So it has to have a rank certificate to exist?



Yes, in this case. In order to be a style of TKD, there are certain things you'd have to have. A curriculum. Ranks. Affiliated schools. WT has none of those things. Because it's not a style of TKD.



> Why do WT tournaments use KKW dan ranks to set up their brackets?



Because there are no WT ranks, obviously. Duh.


> If you're not sure what I mean when I post, please ask for clarification instead of assuming I'm wrong.



But you *are*.

You might as well claim rank in combat Hula hoops. You wouldn't be any more wrong.


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## skribs (Dec 21, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Yes, in this case. In order to be a style of TKD, there are certain things you'd have to have. A curriculum. Ranks. Affiliated schools. WT has none of those things. Because it's not a style of TKD.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're technically right, but functionally "WT" can work.  It doesn't have ranks or a curriculum.

But anyone who says they take "WT", you know what they mean.  They learn KKW forms and WT sparring.  So for the sake of conversation, it works.


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## andyjeffries (Dec 21, 2018)

skribs said:


> So it has to have a rank certificate to exist?  Why do WT tournaments use KKW dan ranks to set up their brackets?



I can't imagine that they do. They use current ranking to setup the brackets, but not the athletes' KKW Dan ranks. Most elite athletes are just a 1st Dan (or 1st Poom even) anyway.[/QUOTE]


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 21, 2018)

skribs said:


> You're technically right,



That's the first step. The next step is for you to stop being wrong.



> But anyone who says they take "WT", you know what they mean.  They learn KKW forms and WT sparring.  So for the sake of conversation, it works.



Words have meaning. They should be used properly. People studying KKW TKD learn KKW forms and KKW sparring. 
I think you should mumble dogface off to the banana patch now.


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## skribs (Dec 21, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> That's the first step. The next step is for you to stop being wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Words have meaning, and that's not limited to their definition.  There are plenty of words that have a meaning outside of their literal definition, and because of that meaning, they are no longer politically correct to use.

I would definitely argue that people studying KKW TKD are NOT studying KKW sparring.  If they're not WT forms, they're not KKW sparring.  The WT sets the rules that are used, and KKW schools train for those rules.  As the rules change, the KKW schools change with it.

That's what I'm getting at.  There is a symbiotic relationship between the two organizations.  The KKW curriculum drives the rules of one aspect of competition, and the rules of another aspect drive the KKW curriculum.

You seem to be purposefully ignoring this relationship just to prove they're separate entities.


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## dvcochran (Dec 21, 2018)

skribs said:


> Words have meaning, and that's not limited to their definition.  There are plenty of words that have a meaning outside of their literal definition, and because of that meaning, they are no longer politically correct to use.
> 
> I would definitely argue that people studying KKW TKD are NOT studying KKW sparring.  If they're not WT forms, they're not KKW sparring.  The WT sets the rules that are used, and KKW schools train for those rules.  As the rules change, the KKW schools change with it.
> 
> ...


I am jumping in the fray. I think what Dog is saying is that where really isn't a relationship in an official sense. Truly WT facilities are  the sport element of TKD and has it's own body of regulation. The Kukkiwon, as part of the Korean government, has it's own body of control. Because both have very strong Korean roots and are both often taught together at the same schools, they get squeezed together as the same entity. As an example, as black belt certificate doesn't come from WT, it comes from Kukkiwon.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 21, 2018)

skribs said:


> Words have meaning, and that's not limited to their definition.



Actually, it is. That's what a definition IS.



> You seem to be purposefully ignoring this relationship just to prove they're separate entities.



You already admitted that they are. Now you're just desperately trying to defend being wrong instead of just moving on.


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## skribs (Dec 21, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Actually, it is. That's what a definition IS.



So let me ask you this...if I say "I train WTF TKD", do you know what I mean?  Not what I say, not whether or not what I say is correct, but do you know what I mean?  Do you know what forms I probably train in, what my sparring style is?

---



> You already admitted that they are. Now you're just desperately trying to defend being wrong instead of just moving on.



You have outright stated that if KKW got rid of the Taegeuks and moved onto new forms that WT would stay the same.  You've also hinted or stated that if WT rules changed, it would not affect what KKW schools teach in sparring.  That these are two completely different entities that have nothing to do with each other, and that it is random coincidence that they both use the same forms and both have the same sparring style.

So let me ask you two questions:


Why do WT Tournaments focus on Taegeuks and KKW Black Belt Forms (i.e. KKW curriculum)?  
Why do KKW schools *primarily* teach WT sparring?
And two follow-up questions:

If KKW came up with a new set of forms that replaced the Taegeuks, why would WT stick with the deprecated forms over the KKW curriculum?
What is it that KKW students get out of the WT sparring style other than preparing for the game of WT sparring?
It's nothing like the forms or self defense, and many of the techniques and tactics only apply because of the WT sparring rules that disallow grappling or head punches.

---

Okay, so I asked 5 questions.


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## skribs (Dec 21, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I am jumping in the fray. I think what Dog is saying is that where really isn't a relationship in an official sense. Truly WT facilities are  the sport element of TKD and has it's own body of regulation. The Kukkiwon, as part of the Korean government, has it's own body of control. Because both have very strong Korean roots and are both often taught together at the same schools, they get squeezed together as the same entity. As an example, as black belt certificate doesn't come from WT, it comes from Kukkiwon.



Officially, no.  But from the functional perspective there is.  

I work IT at a hospital, and there is the "technical" and "functional" side of things.  Technical is things like "can the user log in" and "do the servers talk to each other."  Functional is things like "does the layout and terminology make sense to the doctors" and "are these workflows optimized?"

So while technically the organizations may be separate, for the student, they train in TKD forms and sparring, and they go to tournaments and compete in TKD forms and sparring.  The tournaments register black belts based on their KKW ID, and we teach "Olympic-style sparring" at our school.

There's a system at my hospital, which other systems can connect into it.  (Think of it like how you use Facebook, and in addition to the main Facebook page and apps, there's also 3rd-party apps and games you can use, like Words With Friends).  Facebook doesn't make Words With Friends, and technically it's a 3rd-party app that's contracted through Facebook.  However, because you use your Facebook account and you can play it on the Facebook site, most of the players see it as a Facebook game.  Similarly, the system that I manage is completely separate from the system it's used in, but because the accounts are linked and you use the same application to access both of them, the users see them as the same thing.  (And in my case, the developers of both systems have so little to do with each other they won't even talk to each other, I have to be a middle-man when I escalate anything).

With that said, when I look at it from the perspective of a TKD student, or even an instructor or coach, whether the two organizations are so separate they merely read the news about each other, or if they're run by the same person and  are two branches of the same affiliation is irrelevant.  The fact is, how it works out for us in practice, is what we train at a KKW school is what we compete in at a WT tournament, and our qualifications at a KKW school is what we use to sign up for the WT tournament.  So even if they're technically separate, that doesn't matter to the end user...er, the student/competitor.

From the top down, you might see the divide.  But from the bottom up, you see a Venn Diagram with a very large center section, if you even realize there's a difference.


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## dvcochran (Dec 21, 2018)

skribs said:


> So let me ask you this...if I say "I train WTF TKD", do you know what I mean?  Not what I say, not whether or not what I say is correct, but do you know what I mean?  Do you know what forms I probably train in, what my sparring style is?
> 
> ---
> 
> ...


You are still mincing. I have friends that practice ITF TKD who learn WT sparring simply because there are so many more tourneys with WT rules. Conversely, I know schools that practice the Taeguek and Yudanja Poomsae but do not adhere to WT sparring rules. I agree with your IT analogy in part but the facts remain the same. Trying to make them fit a certain scenario doesn't change that.


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## WaterGal (Dec 21, 2018)

All of us here know that 99%+ of the time, when someone says they have a "WTF black belt", they mean they have a black belt from KKW. Most people just don't know the difference, and use them interchangeably. That's not technically correct, but we all know what they mean and there's no point in being argumentative about it.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 21, 2018)

skribs said:


> So let me ask you this...if I say "I train WTF TKD", do you know what I mean?  Not what I say, not whether or not what I say is correct, but do you know what I mean?  Do you know what forms I probably train in, what my sparring style is?



The only thing I'd know, for sure, is that you're confused. I might *suspect* that you do KKW TKD, because lots of people seem to be confused on this issue. But I wouldn't know it. Because it's not what you said.



> You have outright stated that if KKW got rid of the Taegeuks and moved onto new forms that WT would stay the same.



No I didn't. 



> You've also hinted or stated that if WT rules changed, it would not affect what KKW schools teach in sparring.



No I didn't. 
I'm not in a position to know, for sure, what either entity would do.


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## skribs (Dec 21, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> The only thing I'd know, for sure, is that you're confused. I might *suspect* that you do KKW TKD, because lots of people seem to be confused on this issue. But I wouldn't know it. Because it's not what you said.



So you would know what I mean, and be an elitist snob about my particular choice of terminology.  Which means my objective of telling you what I'm learning is accomplished, and as I cannot control your reaction to what I say, the rest isn't on me.



> > You have outright stated that if KKW got rid of the Taegeuks and moved onto new forms that WT would stay the same.
> 
> 
> No I didn't.



Let's look at the conversation from Page 2:

*You: *"Other way 'round. The KKW curriculum doesn't teach what the WT wants. WT currently says "we judge KKW forms only" and goes from there."
*You:  *"I have no opinion on the usefulness of the Skirbs patterns, but your assertion about how WT would respond to fundamental changes is unsupported (and unsupportable) by any actual evidence."
*Me:  *"That's...not what you just said in the previous quote. If they say "we judge KKW forms only" and those were KKW forms, then WT would respond to them."
*You:  *"I was imprecise. Mea culpa. What WT actually says is "we judge the taegeuk forms for colored belts, and Koryo, Keumgang [...] for Dan ranks". "

This line of thought _*very strongly *_suggests that even if the KKW changes their curriculum, that WT would stay the same.  Can you please explain to me how it doesn't?



> > You've also hinted or stated that if WT rules changed, it would not affect what KKW schools teach in sparring.
> 
> 
> 
> No I didn't.



Looking back through the thread...you're right.  Sorry on this one.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 21, 2018)

skribs said:


> blah blah blah



At this point you're wrong, you know you're wrong, you've admitted you're wrong, and you're just trying to justify how it's ok to be wrong.
It is, in the sense that we're all wrong sometimes. But justifying it is pointless. The thing to do is recognize the error and correct it in the future.


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## skribs (Dec 22, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> At this point you're wrong, you know you're wrong, you've admitted you're wrong, and you're just trying to justify how it's ok to be wrong.
> It is, in the sense that we're all wrong sometimes. But justifying it is pointless. The thing to do is recognize the error and correct it in the future.



You're not even going to justify the contradictions I pointed out?  You're just going to pull the "_I'm going to ignore everything you say, because I think you're wrong_" card?

If you have an argument to make, then make it.  If the only thing you can do is put your fingers in your ears and go "*I'M NOT LISTENING LALALALALALA LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU*"...then I think I may have a valid point.

---

I admitted I was wrong on one specific thing: that you said something.  I had said "You've also hinted or stated that if WT rules changed, it would not affect what KKW schools teach in sparring."  You didn't say that.  That's the only wrong I admit to.

I don't know how you interpreted that, in the context of the post, to mean "I'm wrong about everything."


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## Gnarlie (Dec 22, 2018)

You fellas are literally arguing about nothing. Back to the point - ATA and KKW TKD are not particularly compatible. I've taken on a couple of ex ATA students and it has basically meant starting over with them. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> You're not even going to justify the contradictions I pointed out?



There were no contradictions in what I said. You are, once again, confused.

There is no such thing as WT TKD. That is a fact. Pretty much everything else said has been you trying to rationalize your error as acceptable, rather than simply correcting it.



> You're just going to pull the "_I'm going to ignore everything you say, because I think you're wrong_" card?



There's no point in arguing with someone who won't correct their errors, even after they've admitted to them.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 22, 2018)

WaterGal said:


> All of us here know that 99%+ of the time, when someone says they have a "WTF black belt", they mean they have a black belt from KKW. Most people just don't know the difference, and use them interchangeably. That's not technically correct, but we all know what they mean and there's no point in being argumentative about it.


I'll add that it is a pet peeve of mine NOT that the terms are used interchangeably, but the the context of the techniques are used interchangeably.

By "context" I mean, under what situation is the technique used.  Too often IMO, techniques are taught as being "TKD" but really they are only good for sport TKD, and the students are not specifically told that.  

As an example, I found the back kick instruction here, at about 7:00 to be fascinating. I had never seen that instruction for the hand position.  At TKD, the master was dismissive of the hand positioning, under the logic that people can't punch you in the head (IN SPORT TKD). But when I asked a dutch-style kickboxer who competed, he said  "oh yeah, you definitely want to practise that. It saved me many times".

So, getting back to the question at hand, if I walked into an ATA school as a 2nd dan KKW black-belt, my primary question would be, "what is the context of the instruction and drills? General TKD, or sport TKD under a specific rule-set"? And I'd be fine with being a white belt, so long as there wasn't onerous fees for every new belt.


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## skribs (Dec 22, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> There were no contradictions in what I said. You are, once again, confused.
> 
> There is no such thing as WT TKD. That is a fact. Pretty much everything else said has been you trying to rationalize your error as acceptable, rather than simply correcting it.
> 
> ...



You have made contradictions and won't admit it.

I have committed one error, and did fix it.  I still stand by the rest of what I said and haven't admitted to any errors.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> You have made contradictions and won't admit it.



Please, by all means, show me one.



> I have committed one error, and did fix it.  I still stand by the rest of what I said and haven't admitted to any errors.



If you're still using WT to mean KKW, you have not fixed it.


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## skribs (Dec 22, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Please, by all means, show me one.



I did.  But you just quoted it as "blah blah blah" and pretended my post didn't exist.



> If you're still using WT to mean KKW, you have not fixed it.



I fixed the mistake I made, which was saying you said something you didn't.  I apologized for that.  So yes, I fixed *THAT *mistake.  

You're just so hung up on telling me I'm wrong you're not even paying attention to what I'm talking about.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> I did.  But you just quoted it as "blah blah blah" and pretended my post didn't exist.



The contradiction doesn't exist. You keep insisting I made a statement about how one agency would respond to a change made by the other. I did not. YOU did, and I pointed out that you had no basis for the assumptions you made. I don't pretend to have any idea how either organization would respond if the other made some basic change.


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## skribs (Dec 22, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> The contradiction doesn't exist. You keep insisting I made a statement about how one agency would respond to a change made by the other. I did not. YOU did, and I pointed out that you had no basis for the assumptions you made. I don't pretend to have any idea how either organization would respond if the other made some basic change.



No basis...except conclusions arrived to by logical analysis?

WT exclusively uses KKW forms.  Is that a random coincidence, or is that on purpose?  If KKW changes its curriculum, then all the KKW schools will change their curriculum, and the next generation of competing talent will know the new forms, and not the Taegeuks.  It makes logical sense that if KKW changes, then in order to adapt to what the competitors know, the WT rules would have to change.

If WT did not adjust their rules when KKW changed their forms, then poomse competition would be relegated to schools which still teach the Taegeuks in addition to (or in spite of) the new forms, or students who have been in long enough that they still learned the old forms.  For the first year or two this wouldn't be a big deal.  After 5 years, or 10 years...it would start to matter, and WT would have to adjust in some way (either to change over to the new forms, to get rid of form competition entirely, open up the form competition to allow a wider variety of forms to be used).  

Do I have any proof of this?  No. But I don't think I'm off-base in my assumption here.  It's not a huge leap of logic to assume that would happen.

What would be a big leap is if I made a claim that if the KKW came up with new forms, then WT would abandon the Taegeuks and go to the Palgwes, or that they'd drop the KKW forms altogether and go to ITF or ATA forms, or Shotokan forms, or make up their own forms.  It's not much of a stretch to assume that if KKW replaces the Taegeuks, the WT will as well, to stay relevant.


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## Tez3 (Dec 22, 2018)

Just a thought here, if you have someone with a high grade in another style joining you who is happy about wearing a white belt do you let other students know he has a higher rank in another style? The reason I'm asking is that I went to a friend's class in JKD for a while, just to see what they did really and to enjoy something different, I wore a white belt of course but later after holding pads, then punching and sparring a couple of older guys got a bit shirty because they seemed to think I was somehow cheating because I hadn't said I was a blackbelt and quite a highish one at that. Tbh I didn't think I should have, it's quite different from what I do usually. They had tried to make things difficult for me by punching the pads harder than they would for a white belt on their first session and were trying to show off when holding the pads. I think they were miffed because it didn't bother me. I told my friend later and he sort of smiled and said well that's one of the reasons I invited you! Er thanks....., I think. Couldn't get on with JKD though, made my knees hurt even more than karate.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 22, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Just a thought here, if you have someone with a high grade in another style joining you who is happy about wearing a white belt do you let other students know he has a higher rank in another style? The reason I'm asking is that I went to a friend's class in JKD for a while, just to see what they did really and to enjoy something different, I wore a white belt of course but later after holding pads, then punching and sparring a couple of older guys got a bit shirty because they seemed to think I was somehow cheating because I hadn't said I was a blackbelt and quite a highish one at that. Tbh I didn't think I should have, it's quite different from what I do usually. They had tried to make things difficult for me by punching the pads harder than they would for a white belt on their first session and were trying to show off when holding the pads. I think they were miffed because it didn't bother me. I told my friend later and he sort of smiled and said well that's one of the reasons I invited you! Er thanks....., I think. Couldn't get on with JKD though, made my knees hurt even more than karate.



I'd leave it up to them to decide what to tell other people. When I joined the MDK school, I wore a white belt. Didn't take most people long to figure out that I'd had some prior experience. I don't recall it bothering anybody, though, so maybe one or the other of our schools is weird.
Actually, thinking back, there was one fellow who was a bit bothered. He was well known to have a bit of ego involvement. Perhaps that's a common thread?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 22, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Just a thought here, if you have someone with a high grade in another style joining you who is happy about wearing a white belt do you let other students know he has a higher rank in another style? The reason I'm asking is that I went to a friend's class in JKD for a while, just to see what they did really and to enjoy something different, I wore a white belt of course but later after holding pads, then punching and sparring a couple of older guys got a bit shirty because they seemed to think I was somehow cheating because I hadn't said I was a blackbelt and quite a highish one at that. Tbh I didn't think I should have, it's quite different from what I do usually. They had tried to make things difficult for me by punching the pads harder than they would for a white belt on their first session and were trying to show off when holding the pads. I think they were miffed because it didn't bother me. I told my friend later and he sort of smiled and said well that's one of the reasons I invited you! Er thanks....., I think. Couldn't get on with JKD though, made my knees hurt even more than karate.


They normally figure out within the first session that I have past experience. I dont go into too much detail, but more people seem happy about that then bothered by it.


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## WaterGal (Dec 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> If KKW changes its curriculum, then all the KKW schools will change their curriculum, and the next generation of competing talent will know the new forms, and not the Taegeuks.



FWIW, I wouldn't necessarily assume that. There are still plenty of KKW schools that exclusively teach the Palgwe forms.


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## skribs (Dec 22, 2018)

WaterGal said:


> FWIW, I wouldn't necessarily assume that. There are still plenty of KKW schools that exclusively teach the Palgwe forms.



And if you want to compete in the World Taekwondo poomse brackets, you can't use the Palgwe forms.  You have to use the Taegeuks.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 22, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> They normally figure out within the first session that I have past experience. I dont go into too much detail, but more people seem happy about that then bothered by it.


The more they know the faster they figure out, you have experience.


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## Balrog (Dec 23, 2018)

Balrog said:


> It depends solely on the person and their capability.  I would certainly imagine that it would take less than half the time that someone with no previous experience would take.


I apologize.  I left out some time spans.

From White to 1st Black for a new student in ATA should take about three years.  Another year and a half for 2nd Degree.  After that, you are not eligible to test for the number of years in your rank, so a 2nd Degree would have to wait a minimum of two years before testing.  And of course, there is always the possibility of no-changing on the test, so it might take longer to achieve the next rank.  So for a rock star who seriously busts their hump training, we're looking at 6 1/2 - 7 years for 3rd Degree.  

Someone with prior training already knows the lion's share of the techniques.  As I said earlier, that will cut down on time as they come up through the ranks.  So a 3rd Degree in ITF, I think, should be able to get to 3rd Degree in ATA in about 3 years or so.  That's just a SWAG on my part.


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## skribs (Dec 26, 2018)

Balrog said:


> I apologize.  I left out some time spans.
> 
> From White to 1st Black for a new student in ATA should take about three years.  Another year and a half for 2nd Degree.  After that, you are not eligible to test for the number of years in your rank, so a 2nd Degree would have to wait a minimum of two years before testing.  And of course, there is always the possibility of no-changing on the test, so it might take longer to achieve the next rank.  So for a rock star who seriously busts their hump training, we're looking at 6 1/2 - 7 years for 3rd Degree.
> 
> Someone with prior training already knows the lion's share of the techniques.  As I said earlier, that will cut down on time as they come up through the ranks.  So a 3rd Degree in ITF, I think, should be able to get to 3rd Degree in ATA in about 3 years or so.  That's just a SWAG on my part.



So someone with prior experience in a different branch of TKD could accelerate past the minimum testing times?  If so, I see that as a perfectly reasonable compromise between the student who wants to keep their rank and the branch that wants to ensure the rank is not just handed out.


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