# Gripping Talon - Blue 20 EPAK



## Dominic Jones (Dec 5, 2003)

If the attacker has only grabbed your wrist; why not just kick them.  Short and Sweet.

Cheers Dom:asian: 

(From www.kenponet.com Thanks)
Gripping Talon (Front- Left Hand Direct Wrist Grab) 
1. An attacker at 12 o'clock grabs your right wrist with their left hand. 

2. Step your right foot to 12 o'clock into a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you circle your right hand counterclockwise, under and to the outside of your attacker's left wrist as you circle your left hand counterclockwise and grab your attacker's left wrist. This frees your right hand to execute a right back hammerfist to your attacker's groin. 

Grafting Flow 
Crossing Talon (opposite side) 
3. Execute a right inward elbow to your attacker's left ribs. 
4. Follow through and reverse the action, executing a right outward elbow to your attacker's right ribs. 

5. Step your left foot to 1:30 into a left rear crossover as you execute a right backfist to your attacker's left ribs. (Meanwhile, maintain control of your attacker's left hand.) 

6. Step your right foot to 1:30 into a right reverse bow to buckle to the inside of your attacker's left leg as you execute a right looping wrist strike to the right side of your attacker's neck. (Coordinate this move by yanking on your attacker's left arm.) 

7. As your attacker falls, execute a right knee strike to your attacker's face. 

8. Continue the motion and cross out to 4:30.


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## Bill Lear (Dec 5, 2003)

Understanding the nature of attacks is key to the system...

Perhaps the reason for not kicking him would have to do with whether or not he is pulling you after he grabs your wrist.

:asian:


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## kenpo12 (Dec 5, 2003)

> If the attacker has only grabbed your wrist; why not just kick them. Short and Sweet.



It's generally not wise to lift your foot from the ground if someone is grabbing and pulling.  Also, lets say you do kick them and that doesn't stop them, you have no control over them and have to start from a "sparring" perspective and may or may not win.  If you regrab as the technique calls for you are not only striking your attacker but you are controlling him as well.  There are many more "what-if" I could go into but to my understanding those are some of the basic reasons why you don't just kick them.


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## Michael Billings (Dec 5, 2003)

the contact manipulations and pain contols immediately applied, which continue throughout the technique, from the various wrist and elbow manipulations.

Besides, why kick somebody for grabbing your wrist.  This teaches another release contact manipuation that can work without the strikes, if so desired.  Which giving you a graduated response if the attack escalates.

-Michael


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## WhiteTiger (Dec 6, 2003)

It is not the grabbing hand you are worried about it is his opposite hand.  He has neutralized your power hand with his weak hand, leaving his power hand free for a punch to your head.  If you stand and kick you will eat the right punch.  The object is to neutralize his right hand while you counter attack.  You can do this by either moving to the outside of his left (grabbing) hand, or step back with your left into reverse soft bow stance and back kick to the ribs -  (Twisting Talon, Tracy's Yellow Belt)


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## Bill Lear (Dec 6, 2003)

> *Originally posted by WhiteTiger *
> 
> _It is not the grabbing hand you are worried about it is his opposite hand.  He has neutralized your power hand with his weak hand, leaving his power hand free for a punch to your head.  If you stand and kick you will eat the right punch.  The object is to neutralize his right hand while you counter attack.  You can do this by either moving to the outside of his left (grabbing) hand, or step back with your left into reverse soft bow stance and back kick to the ribs -  (Twisting Talon, Tracy's Yellow Belt) _



I agree! Good post.
:asian:


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## c2kenpo (Dec 6, 2003)

One ofthe ways i looked at Gripping Talon was in a multiple attack scenario of placing your attacking opponent inbetween you and some of his buddies using his body as a barrier and also as a means of scanning your environment via the rear crossover creating distance and range while you buckle your current opponents leg. 
Hopefully his buddies see him drop like a rock and decide discretion is the better part of not being the next to get hit!


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## Bill Lear (Dec 6, 2003)

I think the most important part of the equation in this technique, and other techniques like it, is the nature of the attack.

If the technique is practiced for a static attack, the heart of the technique (the living part of the technique) is lost.

If the technique is practiced for an active attack (a grab accompanied with a tug, or pull) then the true application of the technique can be explored.

Try doing *Gripping Talon* for a two handed wrist grab with the attacker pulling you toward your 11:00. Then try it for your attacker pulling you toward your 1:00. You may find the difference in your opponent's pull will dictate whether or not you choose to apply *Gripping Talon* or *Darting Mace*, both of which are techniques regularly taught for a two-handed right wrist grab.

Redundancy? I don't think so.

Different techniques for different situations? Yep!

:asian:


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## MisterMike (Dec 7, 2003)

I agree with Mr. Lear. Many of the techniques as listed in the Infinite Insights series only give a general description of the attack. Take Twin Kimono and Mace of Aggression, both for a "two hand lapel grab." But which one is pushing away and which is pulling in? (or arms straight/bent)


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 8, 2003)

Mace of Aggression...mostly, and certainly at yellow belt, pulling. TK...at first, pushing.

As for--the attacker's?--arms being straight or bent, well, depends on what you do. "Mace," suggests it doesn't matter, so much, because you're not attacking the elbows. "Twin," says straighten them by stepping back. 

And then, the extension to Lone Kimono suggests that the attacker has bent their arms as you attempted to attack the elbows...


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## pete (Dec 8, 2003)

in addition to being used to leverage borrowed force when being pulled, mace of aggression also applies if your pushed up against a wall.  rather use the step back to neutralize his oncoming (pushing) force, the wall will do it and allow you to advance.


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## c2kenpo (Dec 8, 2003)

everyones got great points here as to why we have so many techniques that are so similar in motion. Each one either moving forward , backwards, push, pull, etc. The questions is WHY do we  move in a paticular direction and that goes with the cycle of considerations of environment and attitude. But the biggest reason is we have CHOICE above all. 

Gripping Talon is just one of many technices that you can use in flow drills and exercises in motion. Try changing the range of the attacker from close to far away and see what other techniqes or flow drill you can come up with. (Grip of Death, Broken Gift, etc..)

Getting off my stump.....:soapbox: 

Have great Kenpo Fun!

Dave Gunzburg


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dominic Jones _
> *If the attacker has only grabbed your wrist; why not just kick them.  Short and Sweet.
> Cheers Dom:asian:
> *



Xactly..... in reality why not!... it is certainly an option, but also keep in mind that there are definite reasons why the technique is written like it is for teaching in the ideal phase for a specific attack.

Other than that, "what if" takes place.... and the "equation formula" is now active and useful for variable expansion options.

:asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bill Lear _
> *Understanding the nature of attacks is key to the system...
> 
> Perhaps the reason for not kicking him would have to do with whether or not he is pulling you after he grabs your wrist.
> ...


Billy, Thanks for the obvious answer. Kicking isn't exactly a grapplig defense. When you are grabbed you are being led into an unfavable predicament. This is no time for the "spread your legs" defense when your balance is in his hands :asian: 
Sean


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## MisterMike (Dec 14, 2003)

For this technique, I do not look at it as grappling. A single hand wrist grab can be broken without even hitting the person. Look at the isolation in Long 3, after Destructive Twins.

Most Kenpo techniques do not need to be run to completion. There's a point at which the techniques can become category completion.


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## Michael Billings (Dec 15, 2003)

I see that "release in Long Form 3" as being utilized here, but then with the addition of the contact manipulation with the left hand.  The rest of the technique comes in, when the opponent tries to continue and hit me with his right, or kick with his left leg.

Just part of the what if's in the technique analysis process.

-Michael


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## Bill Lear (Dec 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Billy, Thanks for the obvious answer. Kicking isn't exactly a grapplig defense. When you are grabbed you are being led into an unfavable predicament. This is no time for the "spread your legs" defense when your balance is in his hands :asian:
> Sean *



HA HA HA! You said "Spread your legs"!!! :rofl:


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 15, 2003)

Is it just me, or does the "Grafting Flow," mentioned above look an awful lot like the usual extension to Crossing Talon?


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## Michael Billings (Dec 15, 2003)

I cannot find an earlier post about "Grafting Flow" per se.  

If you were looking at my possible what-if, I was not Graphting, so much as offering a graduated response.  The Contact Manipulation does not bend them over as much or attack the elbow, rather it is a vertical wrist manipulation with one hand, while still executing Gripping Talon.

If directed at someone else ... whoops.  I do Right and Left on all the techniques, so if it was Crossing Talon's extension, or even the latter part of the Base Technique, I would have referenced that.  

So what exactly was your point here?

<<Scratching my head>>

-Michael


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 16, 2003)

Oh, dopey me. I was referring to the very first post in the thread.

And--just between thee and me, of course--I had an axe to grind--it is starting to amaze me how often these, "innovations," look very like the original techniques or the endings.


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## Michael Billings (Dec 16, 2003)

I missed the inserted "Grafting Flow" in the first post, and I re-read the entire thread (obviously not closely enough)

You know, you just don't know what you don't know ... ya know?

-Michael


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## sumdumguy (Apr 12, 2004)

Well hmmmm? after reading all the responses to this post about Ideal and what if and equation formula and etc.... did anyone think that maybe the technique purpose is far more simple then all of that? Maybe it is just a simple demonstration of compound levers and "sequencial locking". A simple lesson yet very complex. Maybe maybe not, who knows. Fun reading though....
 :asian:


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## 8253 (Apr 13, 2004)

Sometimes the obvious reaction is going to be expected by an attacker, therefore multiple techniques and variations should be learned and built upon so as to not do the same manouver twice.  This way when your opponent thinks that they have the element of suprise, you are the one who really has suprise on your side.


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## sumdumguy (Apr 25, 2004)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> I cannot find an earlier post about "Grafting Flow" per se.
> 
> <<Scratching my head>>
> 
> -Michael



Mr. Billings, the grafting flow reference was from (I believe) the original post. I was a little slow on the take on this one but sure enough, there it is.

 :asian:  :asian:


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## Rob Broad (Jul 17, 2004)

I am surprised that no one mention that you wouldn't actually dothis technique in teh street that it is a tol to teach you some concepts.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jul 17, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> I am surprised that no one mention that you wouldn't actually dothis technique in teh street that it is a tol to teach you some concepts.


Really Rob, I didn't know the technique was limited, would you explain that statement?

DarK LorD


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## Rob Broad (Jul 17, 2004)

The techniques were never designed to be used in their entirety on the street they are designed to help us learn the principles and concepts of American Kenpo.  We all strive to spontaneity phase where there really are no longer techniques just doing what has to be done.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jul 17, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> The techniques were never designed to be used in their entirety on the street they are designed to help us learn the principles and concepts of American Kenpo. We all strive to spontaneity phase where there really are no longer techniques just doing what has to be done.


Damn, didn't know that either.   When did this happen?

DarK LorD


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 17, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> The techniques were _*never*_ designed to be used in their entirety on the street


 And just where did you acquire this information from?



			
				Rob Broad said:
			
		

> The techniques are designed to help us learn the principles and concepts of American Kenpo.


 I agree with this as *1* important point of learning... however, there *ARE* many more.



			
				Rob Broad said:
			
		

> We all strive to spontaneity phase where there really are no longer techniques just doing what has to be done.


 This statement also has merit, however, when you actually do respond in some fashion to an attack...... isn't that series of movements that you do, possibly considered a techniques in itself?


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## Rob Broad (Jul 17, 2004)

I was relaying what I have heard at countless seminars over the years.  As I don't get  to as many seminars I like these days being up in Northern Ontario. I am trying to rember whether it was Joe Palanzo or Dennis Tosten who told a room of about 90 people that the techniques were to be vessels to help us learn the principle and concepts, that they were created to help us learn how to defend ourselves.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 17, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> I was relaying was I have heard at countless seminars over the  years. As I don't get to as many seminars I like these days being up in Northern  Ontario. I am trying to rember whether it was Joe Palanzo or Dennis Tosten who  told a room of about 90 people that the techniques were to be vessels to help us  learn the principle and concepts, that they were created to help us learn how to  defens ourselves.


 I hear ya and there is some truth to the  statement ....... I have heard the same from many as well, however, lets not*  limit *our system to only one description of just what any of the material  was created for, I mean, Ed Parker himself never said this....... and it's his  system.  They _*could*_ be used as you described, but then  again, many of the so called techniques can and have been done on the  street as well.

 None of us can change what others say in seminars.. but  let logic guide you in your analyzations of the material.  I personally have  actually done a complete technique in the street..... and I'm quite sure I'm not  the only one to say this (and no.... at the time..... I wasn't trying to  accomplish this either ).

 :asian:


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## Rob Broad (Jul 17, 2004)

Actually GD7 you and I had this conversation the day I met you in Dec of 2000, and now that I am thinking more of it I am quite sure that if was Mr. Palanzo who made the statement.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 17, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> Actually GD7 you and I had this conversation the day I met you in Dec of 2000, and now that I am thinking more of it I am quite sure that if was Mr. Palanzo who made the statement.


 Quite possible...... anyone can say anything...... lol


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jul 17, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> I was relaying what I have heard at countless seminars over the years. As I don't get to as many seminars I like these days being up in Northern Ontario. I am trying to rember whether it was Joe Palanzo or Dennis Tosten who told a room of about 90 people that the techniques were to be vessels to help us learn the principle and concepts, that they were created to help us learn how to defend ourselves.


You should really get out and see more Kenpo than you have Rob.   

DarK LorD


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## parkerkarate (Oct 7, 2004)

Ok so he grabs your right hand, and you try to kick him. He pulls you down, now what. You are stuck, better be able to think on your feet.


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