# Was lethal force needed?!



## ATC (Oct 25, 2012)

Wow! Was what you are about to see really needed?!?

[yt]Qp8TGMvPuSE[/yt]


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 25, 2012)

A man with a weapon who has already been tazed (without effect) turns around, raises the weapon, and advances on the officer. I'd have shot him too.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 25, 2012)

http://www.whittierdailynews.com/ne...k-may-day-rally-honors-late-steven?source=rss



> Steven Rodriguez, an East Los Angeles College student, was shot and killed by Monterey Park police on Jan. 23 after officers responded to a call that he was breaking windows with a pipe-bender at the fast-food restaurant.
> 
> Rodriguez's shooting was caught on amateur video and showed officers Peter Palomino and Everado Romo, who said they feared for their safety, firing 10 rounds at him. The shooting is still under investigation by the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Homicide Bureau.




http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/steve-rodriguez/




> Sheriff's officials said Monterey Park police were called to the restaurant after witnesses reported a man breaking windows. When they arrived, the officers saw several people run from the restaurant in their direction.
> 
> A man with a 3-foot metal bar, later identified as Rodriguez, followed immediately behind them. The officers ordered him several times to drop the bar. He did not heed the command, authorities said, and one of the officers used a Taser on him.
> 
> ...



I cannot find any more recent information.  From what little I can find online, the officers feared for their safety.  Other than that, I cannot say.


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## WC_lun (Oct 25, 2012)

Non-lethal means did not stop him.  He was threatening an officer, so they shot him rather than let him get to the officer.  I don't see an issue.


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## ATC (Oct 25, 2012)

Did they really try to stop the man other than empty a clip into him. What were the dogs for? Why no tasers? He had a pipe, not a knife, or gun. The dogs may have taken him down. Don't get me wrong, my dad was an Officer of the law and I may have done the same. But trained Officers should be trained to respond differently than you or I when scared. Average people my just shoot when scared but I would expect Law Enforcement to have more protocols then simply shoot to kill. No assesment of the situation, Just treat all situations the same. That is scary to me. That means that all of us can simply be shot dead no matter what and it be justified. Mental dissorder, drug induced, what ever. Maybe something other than shooting to kill could have been done. But I guess we will never know.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 25, 2012)

ATC said:


> Why no tasers?



*"He did not heed the command, authorities said, and one of the officers used a Taser on him."*

I saw the taser employed in the video; the person appeared to not be affected by it.



> He had a pipe, not a knife, or gun.



He had a three-foot metal bar - in some news stories, described as a pipe-bending tool.  I know what those are, and they are heavy as heck.  That's a deadly weapon.  Get hit once in the skull with one and you're done.



> The dogs may have taken him down. Don't get me wrong, my dad was an Officer of the law and I may have done the same. But trained Officers should be trained to respond differently than you or I when scared. Average people my just shoot when scared but I would expect Law Enforcement to have more protocols then simply shoot to kill. No assesment of the situation, Just treat all situations the same. That is scary to me.



Police officers are trained to protect the public first; their own lives second.  The life of the suspect who is threatening them is third.

I do not know the outcome of the investigation of this, if it has even been made public.  But I do know, and support the notion, that a police officer is permitted to defend his or her own life with deadly force if necessary.  They are held to a higher standard, and their actions are frequently called into question.  

As to their protocols, it appeared they employed non-deadly force in the form of a taser and it failed to stop or even slow the suspect down.

If I knew nothing else about this incident, I would tend to believe the police made the decision they had to make at that moment in time.



> That means that all of us can simply be shot dead no matter what and it be justified. Mental dissorder, drug induced, what ever. Maybe something other than shooting to kill could have been done. But I guess we will never know.



Hardly the case.

First, all police shootings are reviewed, no matter what jurisdiction they occur in.  Frequently the investigation is done by a law-enforcement agency other than the one where the shooting occurred.  If the officers erred, there is testimony, dash cams, officer recordings, and a variety of other information which will be brought forward - this may not be public now.  If they erred, they are subject to criminal prosecution like anyone else.

As to the cause of the suspect's assaultive behavior, that really does not matter.  Whether it is caused by mental disorder, drugs, stress, or 'whatever' as you said, the threat is the same.  The police do not and cannot make a psychiatric determination on the scene and say "Oh, he's just on drugs.  Don't shoot him," or "Oh, he's mentally challenged. I guess it's OK if he takes my head off with that pipe."  He is ignoring police orders, swinging a deadly weapon directly at them, and has shrugged off a taser.  If the officers reasonably felt their lives were in danger, they were authorized to fire, and it appears they did just that.  Time will tell if they made the right choice; but what caused the man to flip out does not matter in the least.

In that sense, you're right. Any of us who freak out, bust up the windows in a fast-food restaurant with a metal bar, chase patrons out the door with it, swing it at officers and refuse to stop could well be shot dead.  But just shot dead for no reason at all?  No.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 25, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> *"He did not heed the command, authorities said, and one of the officers used a Taser on him."*
> 
> I saw the taser employed in the video; the person appeared to not be affected by it.



It looked cold and wintery in the video, and the bad guy was wearing a coat. Tazers don't work if the barbs can't reach the skin.

I wouldn't expect any of the officers, including the K9, to get within swinging range of that weapon. And I agree, it does look like a pipe bender. I have some, for making things for the cars, and swinging one at a person would be not much different from swinging an axe.


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## billc (Oct 25, 2012)

The entire incident was in the hands of the man who was shot.  The police didn't just draw their pistols and shoot, they ordered him to comply, they maced him and apparently they tazed him...and knowing the officers had their weapons drawn and pointed at him...he still made an aggressive move toward them.  The officers were placed in the position they were in by the suspect, who did not comply and did not react to less deadly techniques,  they should be given the benefit of the doubt, especially since he initiated the aggressive movement toward the other officer.

Keep in mind, we are seeing this from a good distance away, with water on the lens of the camera.  He could very well have been close enough to actually contact the one officer that he threatened, our perspective is off because of our viewing angle.

Also, the officer he threatened wasn't looking at him, he was trying to holster the can of mace when the guy turned on him and made the aggressive move.

The other officer shot and had a much better perspective on the distance between the two individuals.  The number of shots, very typical for a shooting, especially with adrenaline going through the system.  Keep in mind, if you are shot, you often don't react immediately to the impact, and if the guy was on drugs, or just adrenaline, he may not have reacted immediately anyway.


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## Kaygee (Oct 25, 2012)

Seems legit to me! Don't threaten an officer of the law, period! The guy had a weapon in his hand, was not listening to commands and completely ignored the effects of non-lethal force. Have you ever seen the craziness and strength of someone on angel dust? It is insane....they have the strength of 4 men! They had no choice.


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## Carol (Oct 25, 2012)

A few years ago, there was a young man who worked as a Special Officer with the Boston PD, his name was Paul Langone.  Mr. Langone was about town on personal business when he stopped at doctor's office building that also housed a bipolar clinic.  He stepped off the elevator and stopped to check his cell phone when he heard a high pitched scream.  At first he thought it was a child throwing a tantrum.  He then heard a lower, louder, and more urgent scream which made it clear to him that this was no tantrum.   The door to the clinic was propped open so he charged forward, following the sounds of the screams.  He identified the doctor's office, flashed his badge, and found a bloodied woman trying fight off a man attacking her. 

Mr. Langone thought the man was beating the woman.  The man then lunged at Mr. Langone, and that's when Mr. Langone saw that he had a knife.  Mr. Langone jumped back to avoid the knife, then the man returned to stab the woman, who was his doctor. The woman had collapsed on the ground, the assailant on top of her.  Mr. Langone ordered the man several times to drop the knife, he did not.  Mr. Langone withdrew the gun he was carrying and fired.   The patient was shot twice and succumbed to his injuries.  Mr. Langone managed to avoid shooting the doctor....whose life was saved due to Mr. Langone's quick actions.  

Even though Mr. Langone was not on duty at the time, and even though this was a virtually open-and-shut case of justifiable use of force, Mr. Langone was put on leave for 5 months while the investigation took place.  I remember discussing it here, and some of the police officers here assured me that this was standard procedure for an officer-involved shooting.  

The investigation determined that Mr. Langone was indeed in the right, and the DA would not bring charges against him.

I think YouTube clips like these spark some excellent discussion and dialogue but I hope the comments here do not trivialize the matter. Clips like these don't show someone like Mr. Langone lamenting that the patient passed away, stating that he gave him every chance he could and wishing he could have saved them both.  They don't show Mr. Langone's father hoping that the investigation would be through before Christmas (it wasn't) so the family could enjoy the holidays without the matter hanging over everyone's heads.  They don't show someone like my friend Roy, who worked for years as an armed guard in the city and once described the mountains of paperwork involved when a discharge of a weapon happens.  Its not like the officers get a high five and a round of drinks bought for them at the end of the day and then go back to work in the morning like nothing ever happened.


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## Tgace (Oct 26, 2012)

Is a deadly threat from a mentally ill person any different from a deadly threat from a non mentally ill person? Especially when you are the person about to be brained by a pipe bender?

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## Tgace (Oct 26, 2012)

Carol said:


> .  Its not like the officers get a high five and a round of drinks bought for them at the end of the day and then go back to work in the morning like nothing ever happened.



But that's exactly the impression the entertainment media presents....and say what you will, even people who claim to know entertainment is not reality have their beliefs shaped by it.

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## Makalakumu (Oct 26, 2012)

ATC said:


> Wow! Was what you are about to see really needed?!?
> 
> [yt]Qp8TGMvPuSE[/yt]



Watching someone die invokes strong emotions that are deep and visceral. Even if the person if the person was killed justifiably, I think most good people are going to feel them. The challenge is going to be in the assignment of virtue. This is a rational act and may have to struggle against some of the emotion one feels. I think virtue was on the side of the officers here.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 26, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Watching someone die invokes strong emotions that are deep and visceral. Even if the person if the person was killed justifiably, I think most good people are going to feel them. The challenge is going to be in the assignment of virtue. This is a rational act and may have to struggle against some of the emotion one feels. I think virtue was on the side of the officers here.



If you watch the video with the sound turned on, the commentary from the young people filming it is telling.  They see it first as entertainment, including the fact that the suspect is shot repeatedly.  It's all funny and they literally giggle about it like teenage girls.  Only later do they begin to form angry reactions towards the police, demanding to be removed from the scene before they assaulted the police for having shot the suspect.

Entertainment first and foremost.  Reactions come later.  Very telling about our society.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 26, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> If you watch the video with the sound turned on, the commentary from the young people filming it is telling.  They see it first as entertainment, including the fact that the suspect is shot repeatedly.  It's all funny and they literally giggle about it like teenage girls.  Only later do they begin to form angry reactions towards the police, demanding to be removed from the scene before they assaulted the police for having shot the suspect.
> 
> Entertainment first and foremost.  Reactions come later.  Very telling about our society.



I listened to that as well.  I thought it was disgusting.  I also noticed that this person monetized the video on youtube.  The video has over 100,000 views when I saw it.  The person who posted it is actually going to get a check for it.  Sad.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 26, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> If you watch the video with the sound turned on, the commentary from the young people filming it is telling.  They see it first as entertainment, including the fact that the suspect is shot repeatedly.  It's all funny and they literally giggle about it like teenage girls.



That is truly sickening my friend .  As you say, a sign that our insulated-from-reality, video-on-demand, society is starting to lose touch with some very important human traits - the compassionate, non-violent, ones that encourage us to help each other when one of us is in need.

I confess I have not watched the video clip as I have no desire whatsoever to see someone shot to death before my eyes; not just because it is a horrible thing to see but also because it is an insult to the very notion of human dignity itself to take such as entertainment (or indeed to think to film it in the first place).


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## WC_lun (Oct 26, 2012)

The reactions of the young men shooting the video were both disgusting and telling.  A person's life should be worth more than the gallows entertainment of some graveyard crows.  In my opinion, the police shooting was justified.  However, even justified it is easy to tell those officers were not giggling about the situation or what they were forced into.  A person's death, even necessary, should never be fodder for idiocy like this.

Is this a symtom of our society or just a symtom of our increased ability at communication?


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## Instructor (Oct 26, 2012)

I almost shot a kid once.  He was thirteen and toting a long gun down a country lane.  I pulled up in my clearly marked police vehicle got out keeping the engine block between me and him and asked him what he was doing and he pointed the gun at me.  I drew down on him with my M-16, charged a round and switched the selector switch to semi.

Would have been within my rights to fire but I didn't. I am not sure why I didn't, I just didn't.  He was just a kid.  Fortunately nobody got hurt.  It turns out that the long gun was a pellet gun and he was depressed and wanted me to shoot him.

Still what a nightmare.  I feel for those cops, the memories they have to carry around.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 26, 2012)

Sukerkin said:


> I confess I have not watched the video clip as I have no desire whatsoever to see someone shot to death before my eyes; not just because it is a horrible thing to see but also because it is an insult to the very notion of human dignity itself to take such as entertainment (or indeed to think to film it in the first place).



I don't have any objection to citizens videotaping or photographing the police; indeed I think it is the duty of citizens to be the watchers of the watchers.  And the fact that the situation was about to become deadly was not apparent when the video began, so I don't blame those kids for recording.  It is their reaction that I condemn, and see as a sad indictment of our society.  As you say, it was entertainment for them (at least at first).  That the video exists doesn't disturb me.  That it is viewed as entertainment does.


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## jks9199 (Oct 26, 2012)

*Admin Note:

Thread moved to the Law Enforcement forum, as we believe it is a better fit there.  

jks9199
Asst. Administrator
*


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## chinto (Oct 29, 2012)

ATC said:


> Did they really try to stop the man other than empty a clip into him. What were the dogs for? Why no tasers? He had a pipe, not a knife, or gun. The dogs may have taken him down. Don't get me wrong, my dad was an Officer of the law and I may have done the same. But trained Officers should be trained to respond differently than you or I when scared. Average people my just shoot when scared but I would expect Law Enforcement to have more protocols then simply shoot to kill. No assesment of the situation, Just treat all situations the same. That is scary to me. That means that all of us can simply be shot dead no matter what and it be justified. Mental dissorder, drug induced, what ever. Maybe something other than shooting to kill could have been done. But I guess we will never know.



OK let some one strike your head with a pipe, do you think your life is endangered by that kind of a weapons blow?  ( answer is very much so.)  if they used a taser and it did not put him down and he did close on the officer with the weapon in a position to strike.  

in that situation I would have shot, and yes used multiple rounds.  If you are not afraid for your LIFE or the LIFE of  some one else, Why would you shoot?  in that case its reasonable to fear that the officer could be killed and so to fire.


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