# Waterboarding



## Stealthy (Aug 2, 2011)

Important to note from this, the only reason any of it came to light was because a junior officer betrayed the seniors and reported it.

On countless occassions there are stories from victims about police brutality and generally what happens is the police beat them up then charge the victim with assault and when it goes to court the charges are dropped due to the police video footage being unavailable. Even with scarring and heavy bruising there is no recourse for being beaten by the police unless you catch them on video yourself or as in this case one of their own betrays them.

Really good footage at 3:45 which starts off with a punch in the head to soften him up then the victim is Waterboarded for 2 and half minutes.

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http://smartstate.com.au/cctv-footage-of-assaults-by-former-queensland-police-service-officer.html If you are too paranoid to follow the link the spin off from this one act of betrayal is at 5 resignations so far.


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## Tez3 (Aug 3, 2011)

The junior officer _'betrayed_' the senior officers?


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 3, 2011)

Brutality or torture should never be condoned.  It looks like it wasn't once reported.  That all that can be asked.


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## Razor (Aug 3, 2011)

It's good that this actually comes to light occasionally. Don't know what usually happens in the Australia, but generally in the UK at most they get a slap on the wrist and are back on the streets in a week or two. Shame that for some police officers the power goes to their heads and they do things like this. Aside from being a danger to the public, they ruin the reputation of police forces for all of the decent officers.


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## Tez3 (Aug 3, 2011)

Razor said:


> It's good that this actually comes to light occasionally. Don't know what happens in the US, butslap on the* generally in the UK at most they get a * *wrist and are back on the streets in a week or two*. Shame that for some police officers the power goes to their heads and they do things like this. Aside from being a danger to the public, they ruin the reputation of police forces for all of the decent officers.



Well no that's generally *not* what happens. 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-11152883
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ing-handcuffed-Amy-Keigher.html#ixzz12BtOk1uC

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...er-jailed-assaulting-woman.html#ixzz12Bhv7ZPe


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## Razor (Aug 3, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Well no that's generally *not* what happens.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-11152883
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ing-handcuffed-Amy-Keigher.html#ixzz12BtOk1uC
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...er-jailed-assaulting-woman.html#ixzz12Bhv7ZPe



I am aware that this does not always happen....but misconduct often does go seemingly unpunished a lot, particularly among the Metropolitan Police. I'm sure we could go back and forth with news articles that support each point of view...

Also, perhaps my original comment was a little misleading; I meant police often get away with misconduct in general, not necessarily just violence.


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## Tez3 (Aug 3, 2011)

Razor said:


> I am aware that this does not always happen....but misconduct often does go seemingly unpunished a lot, particularly among the Metropolitan Police. I'm sure we could go back and forth with news articles that support each point of view...
> 
> Also, perhaps my original comment was a little misleading; I meant police often get away with misconduct in general, not necessarily just violence.



Well the Cleveland force's Chief Constable and one of his deputies has just been arrested for misconduct. 
How do you know that there is misconduct in our police forces that is going unpunished or is this just one of those 'well everybody knows' things?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/03/cleveland-police-head-arrested-corruption


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 3, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Well the Cleveland force's Chief Constable and one of his deputies has just been arrested for misconduct.
> *How do you know that there is misconduct in our police forces that is going unpunished or is this just one of those 'well everybody knows' things?
> 
> *http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/03/cleveland-police-head-arrested-corruption



I'm not sure what your point is.  If you are in police work, it is pretty well understood that much crime goes unreported, no matter who commits it.


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## Razor (Aug 3, 2011)

Yeah, I saw that, good to see something happens.

Both of my parents have worked with the Metropolitan Police, although they are a bit of an anecdotal source. Aside from that there are plenty of cases which pop up in various newspapers of suspect actions by Police which seem to go "unnoticed". In some it may be a case of nothing happening yet. Also there seems to be appalling misconduct at any kind of protest, such as a Police Chief Constable lying to the Fortnum and Mason protesters that they will be released then arresting them, cavalry charges at peaceful crowds, use of "kettling" despite it being illegal under EU law etc...

I don't just go on the basis of "everybody knows" but it does seem to happen quite a lot. This is just based on what I've read, seen and heard though, I don't claim to know the full picture


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## Tez3 (Aug 3, 2011)

Razor said:


> Yeah, I saw that, good to see something happens.
> 
> Both of my parents have worked with the Metropolitan Police, although they are a bit of an anecdotal source. Aside from that there are plenty of cases which pop up in various newspapers of suspect actions by Police which seem to go "unnoticed". In some it may be a case of nothing happening yet. Also there seems to be appalling misconduct at any kind of protest, such as a Police Chief Constable lying to the Fortnum and Mason protesters that they will be released then arresting them, cavalry charges at peaceful crowds, use of "kettling" despite it being illegal under EU law etc...
> 
> I don't just go on the basis of "everybody knows" but it does seem to happen quite a lot. This is just based on what I've read, seen and heard though, I don't claim to know the full picture



If it's popped up in the papers it's not unnoticed is it?

Ever been on the police side of a public order line? There would have been a bigger uproar if the CC hadn't had the Fortnum and Mason protesters arrested, if they are doing something they know to be illegal of course they are going to be arrested and of course the CC will tell them they won't if it means getting them out without violence or damage being done. 
As for kettling, the protesters took the Met to court and won, it then became illegal, that's hardly the police getting away with it.



Of course the police aren't perfect but they do *try* to keep their house in order, there will always be those who want to chance their arm and do things which aren't legal or moral, hopefully the moral among us will do the right thing.


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## Razor (Aug 3, 2011)

No, but an isolated example doesn't prove your point at all....just like me saying "look it happened once" wouldn't prove mine.

Equally it's not fair to claim that something else would have happened if they had acted differently...they acted in the way they did. I have not been on the police side, but if their reaction to peaceful protest and the occasional bottle thrower is beatings and cavalry charges something has clearly gone wrong somewhere. Well telling lies to members of the public just to make their job is quite disgraceful from a public servant. All that means is that the decent majority will get more problems from people who don't trust what they say. They pulled a similar trick at a student protest, telling everyone they would be let out at another side of Westminster Square, saying the same thing at all of them. This understandably aggravated people and led to more problems. They are appealing kettling, if there is another protest it will probably be used yet again.

That's pretty much a summary of what I said in reverse. I know a lot of the police are decent people who want to help their communities, and as I said above, unfortunately some will abuse their position, either by blatant misconduct or the little annoying things (such as one stopping me for "suspicious use of an alleyway", AKA stopping for a moment to get my phone out of my pocket).


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## Tez3 (Aug 3, 2011)

Razor said:


> No, but an isolated example doesn't prove your point at all....just like me saying "look it happened once" wouldn't prove mine.
> 
> Equally it's not fair to claim that something else would have happened if they had acted differently...they acted in the way they did. I have not been on the police side, but if their reaction to peaceful protest and the occasional bottle thrower is beatings and cavalry charges something has clearly gone wrong somewhere. Well telling lies to members of the public just to make their job is quite disgraceful from a public servant. All that means is that the decent majority will get more problems from people who don't trust what they say. They pulled a similar trick at a student protest, telling everyone they would be let out at another side of Westminster Square, saying the same thing at all of them. This understandably aggravated people and led to more problems. They are appealing kettling, if there is another protest it will probably be used yet again.
> 
> That's pretty much a summary of what I said in reverse. I know a lot of the police are decent people who want to help their communities, and as I said above, unfortunately some will abuse their position, either by blatant misconduct or the little annoying things (such as one stopping me for "suspicious use of an alleyway", AKA stopping for a moment to get my phone out of my pocket).




Did you happen to note how many police officers and others were hurt in the 'peaceful' demos? Do you think situations in demonstrations are so black and white that it's easy to make decisions?
This is the 'peaceful' demonstration you were talking about.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cuts-protest-200-arrested-500k-march-cut.html


others..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/29/bristol-protest-police-injured-tesco
http://www.channel4.com/news/police-offiicers-injured-in-belfast-riots
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...officer_injured_in_protest_violence_1_3565463

Part of planning to police demostrations is working out what would happen in different scenerios, the wished for outcome is always a peaceful protest/demo with no injuires on either side and no arrests, that's what the police work towards, not least because it's the easiest way for them. Do you think they want fighting, arrest and injuries? do you know how much paperwork that makes and no police offcier likes paperwork! 

Policing demonstrations is like the football league, everyone is an armchair expert, everyone thinks what they see on the tv means it's whats only happening, that's usually just the tip of the iceberg, it's like a battle, confusion, noise, missiles and danger. For every peaceful demo there is a group determined to break that peace. It's unfair on the police and it's unfair on the original demonstrators but it's a fact of life in this day and age that the anarchist groups will jump on any bandwagon and make it war.

Do you know of many other countries that allow you to go to court to challenge police proceedings and the police lose? So, they are appealing, that's democracy for you.


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## Razor (Aug 3, 2011)

No, I'm not talking about those examples. I'm talking about *peaceful *protests, like the student ones which only turned violent when the police did. I don't know why you got the idea I was talking about that specific example, that didn't even seem peaceful from the outset! There was an article (think it was Guardian) a year or two ago which revealed police logs of the "police injuries" that they report.... like a bruise on their finger which gives an inaccurate impression of actual injuries. Still, not really the point I guess, just police are far more likely to report minor injuries than most others.

I understand what you are saying, but it's not particularly relevant to me. I've been on protests and seen the behaviour from police, heard plenty of...interesting police stories from my parents, studied crime at A-Level and briefly for my degree. I even said that I don't claim to know the full picture. I'm just commenting based on my experience (personal and second hand). Sure, police don't like paperwork, but some of them don't like people who look at them wrongly, say the wrong thing, dare to exercise their democratic right to protest etc. 

Just because anarchists turn things violent doesn't mean everyone should be punished for it. That's police doing their job in the easiest way. It's like arresting somebody's next door neighbour because they can't find the right person.


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## Tez3 (Aug 3, 2011)

Razor said:


> No, I'm not talking about those examples. I'm talking about *peaceful *protests, like the student ones which only turned violent when the police did. I don't know why you got the idea I was talking about that specific example, that didn't even seem peaceful from the outset! There was an article (think it was Guardian) a year or two ago which revealed police logs of the "police injuries" that they report.... like a bruise on their finger which gives an inaccurate impression of actual injuries. Still, not really the point I guess, just police are far more likely to report minor injuries than most others.
> 
> I understand what you are saying, but it's not particularly relevant to me. I've been on protests and seen the behaviour from police, heard plenty of...interesting police stories from my parents, studied crime at A-Level and briefly for my degree. I even said that I don't claim to know the full picture. I'm just commenting based on my experience (personal and second hand). Sure, police don't like paperwork, but some of them don't like people who look at them wrongly, say the wrong thing, dare to exercise their democratic right to protest etc.
> 
> Just because anarchists turn things violent doesn't mean everyone should be punished for it. That's police doing their job in the easiest way. It's like arresting somebody's next door neighbour because they can't find the right person.



Of course you weren't talking about 'those' demos, why would you be? You mentioned Fortnum and Mason, that was hardly a peaceful demo. So, exactly which peaceful student demos are you meaning, I'm afraid you will have to be exact and not just say 'a' peaceful demo because you are making accusations here so should be specific. So far you are having a go at police offciers without conceding that they may even have a point, it's all very 'big bad police officers' ganging up on poor demonstrators. You of course can tell a 'peaceful' demonstrator from an anarchist presumably.It's all very 'Guardian' actually.


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## Razor (Aug 4, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Of course you weren't talking about 'those' demos, why would you be? You mentioned Fortnum and Mason, that was hardly a peaceful demo. So, exactly which peaceful student demos are you meaning, I'm afraid you will have to be exact and not just say 'a' peaceful demo because you are making accusations here so should be specific. So far you are having a go at police offciers without conceding that they may even have a point, it's all very 'big bad police officers' ganging up on poor demonstrators. You of course can tell a 'peaceful' demonstrator from an anarchist presumably.It's all very 'Guardian' actually.



That looked pretty peaceful to me, considering it was people sitting in the shop. Apparently they got on okay with the staff and the customers. What is not peaceful about that? Generally if you look at any newspaper article on demonstrations, there are a small minority who are violent, and even the Police agree with that. For example, 50,000 students and about 200 who attacked Millibank tower. Similar figures at most of the others. The Police respond in kind, indiscriminately. As an example, the one in December (think it was the 10th).

Most of the student demonstrations were peaceful until either police became aggressive or responded violently against everyone because some people were throwing things at them and making trouble. 

You seem to be misinterpreting what I posted, or not reading it probably. I'm not "having a go" at Police, and did concede (several times if you have a look) that I don't know the full story but was commenting on my own experience. I am sorry if you felt like I was being unfair. I have seen both sides of the Police even at one demonstration; one kindly telling people to avoid a big road works hole some idiots had exposed and others shouting and attacking people who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time (often with their numbers removed). It is irrelevant telling anarchists from others. The job of the Police is to tell who is actually *committing crimes *from those who are not.


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## Tez3 (Aug 4, 2011)

Razor said:


> That looked pretty peaceful to me, considering it was people sitting in the shop. Apparently they got on okay with the staff and the customers. What is not peaceful about that? Generally if you look at any newspaper article on demonstrations, there are a small minority who are violent, and even the Police agree with that. For example, 50,000 students and about 200 who attacked Millibank tower. Similar figures at most of the others. The Police respond in kind, indiscriminately. As an example, the one in December (think it was the 10th).
> 
> Most of the student demonstrations were peaceful until either police became aggressive or responded violently against everyone because some people were throwing things at them and making trouble.
> 
> You seem to be misinterpreting what I posted, or not reading it probably. I'm not "having a go" at Police, and did concede (several times if you have a look) that I don't know the full story but was commenting on my own experience. I am sorry if you felt like I was being unfair. I have seen both sides of the Police even at one demonstration; one kindly telling people to avoid a big road works hole some idiots had exposed and others shouting and attacking people who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time (often with their numbers removed). It is irrelevant telling anarchists from others. The job of the Police is to tell who is actually *committing crimes *from those who are not.




If in doubt always accuse a poster of not reading your posts. Sigh. I give up. If you are going to tell me how to do my job I will bow to your wisdom and leave this thread to you and Stealthy who hates all police anyway.


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## Razor (Aug 4, 2011)

Well how about responding to what it seems you haven't read? It seems quite clear you haven't read it properly or are deliberately misinterpreting. If in doubt then start accusing people of implying things they haven't appears to be your strategy.

I'm not telling anyone how to do their job and I never tried to; nor do I hate all Police as you're saying Stealthy does. 

My apologies if you took anything personally, as I assume you are a police officer judging by the last sentence.


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## Tez3 (Aug 4, 2011)

_"That's police doing their job in the easiest way. It's like arresting somebody's next door neighbour because they can't find the right person. "
"The job of the Police is to tell who is actually committing crimes from those who are not." 
"Sure, police don't like paperwork, but some of them don't like people who look at them wrongly, say the wrong thing, dare to exercise their democratic right to protest etc_." 

No, not criticising or telling police how they should do their job at all.


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## Razor (Aug 4, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> _"That's police doing their job in the easiest way. It's like arresting somebody's next door neighbour because they can't find the right person. "
> "The job of the Police is to tell who is actually committing crimes from those who are not."
> "Sure, police don't like paperwork, but some of them don't like people who look at them wrongly, say the wrong thing, dare to exercise their democratic right to protest etc_."
> 
> No, not criticising or telling police how they should do their job at all.



I didn't say I haven't criticised them; I have reason to be critical of police. Nowhere does that say how to do their job....just what it is....

Anyway, weren't you giving up, or was that just being patronising? 

I don't know why you appear to want to pin some form of police hatred on me....Do you disagree that Police should be catching those who commit crimes? Maybe you disagree that Police should not respond indiscriminately? I'm not really sure what your angle is, aside from imagining that I am someone who hates Police officers and said so in my posts.


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## Tez3 (Aug 4, 2011)

Razor said:


> I didn't say I haven't criticised them; I have reason to be critical of police. Nowhere does that say how to do their job....just what it is....
> 
> Anyway, weren't you giving up, or was that just being patronising?
> 
> I don't know why you appear to want to pin some form of police hatred on me....Do you disagree that Police should be catching those who commit crimes? Maybe you disagree that Police should not respond indiscriminately? I'm not really sure what your angle is, aside from imagining that I am someone who hates Police officers and said so in my posts.



I'm female and like the last word!
I've never said I thought you hated the police. I'm not sure if you know what it's like being on a police line in a demo, it's not straight forward, it's more like total confusion, it looks simple if you are watching on the television or in one pocket of people you know. Police officers aren't robots, they may train riot situations but nothing prepares you for them, you really don't know who's about to hit you or throw something at you like a fuel filled lit bottle. Police offciers despite knowing they shouldn't do lose their tempers when they see mates being hurt, they don't like being attacked anymore than you would. They also get scared at being surrounded, as most people would, there's a good many things at play in these situations. It' isn't all down to 'bad' police officers, mistakes are made, how could they not be? However the majority do try their best and the majority do try to make sure others keep straight or at least are stopped. 

My angle is that you are seeing only one side, you started with the statement that police officers here get way with a slap on the wrist when they've done wrong. A blanket statement covering all police officers, I pointed out that it simply isn't true that officers aren't punished if caught. The Brits here have enough criticisms of UK police, laws and general way of life without guns that I don't like putting more generalisations into their hands. Yes we have some bad cops, yes some aren't caught but a lot are ( now that doesn't mean we have a lot of bad cops here) and they are punished, with custodial sentences when deserved, the courts holding them to a higher standard are more likely to imprison a copper than a civvie. Nothing's perfect but we don't do too badly here compared to most places.


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## Razor (Aug 8, 2011)

Okay, thanks for the clarification. I did say from the beginning (and again thereafter) that I don't know the full picture, and you did seem to imply that I had something against Police. My father is a member of the Armed Forces and has had the Public Order training, and has been involved in policing student protests as well (albeit in another country), so I have heard of what these situations are like. I know that mistakes are made by anyone, but certain aspects are deliberate. Removal of service numbers, wearing of balaclavas, lying to people etc don't help. I also know most police are good, like I said in my very first post here, officers like the ones in the video make everything bad for the upstanding majority!

I think we have maybe been misunderstanding each other a bit, I agree with most of your second paragraph. I had a poke around non-media sources and found a couple of articles you may find interesting:

Police complains and criminal prosecutions. Smith, G. (2001). _Modern Law Review._ Vol. 64, No. 3 (May, 2001), pp. 372-392.

"It  was  in  this  context that the  Court determined that the  police complaints process does  not meet  the  requisite standards of independence 
to constitute sufficient protection against the  abuse of  authority'...The fact that 'political nominees' play a part in the criminal process is damaging to the integrity of the process and raises serious questions regarding the manner in which some criminal allegations against police officers are treated at the pre-prosecution stage"

"...while debate has prioritised who should have responsibility for managing complaints, sight has been all but lost of the accountability of the police officer for his/her wrongdoing, most particularly with regard to  criminal liability."

"A result of  the general classification of complaints is  that the reporting to the police by a member of the public of what would be a recordable criminal offence if made against another member of the public is recorded as a complaint when made against a police officer. At the commencement of the process an officer alleged to have committed a criminal offence is treated differently from the citizen with the consequence that the police officer arguably enjoys a privileged position relative to the citizen at the outset. This is because under section 65 of the Police Act 1996 the offence must be reported by the victim and not by a witness; thus the 'good citizen' is prevented from independently reporting police crime of this nature.18 Moreover, the allegation is dealt with separately from other criminal allegations in accordance with the police complaints process."

"Having argued on grounds of principle that a combination of 
legal procedure and police  practice has contrived to  create a different pre-trial criminal process for police  officers,  it  is  now  necessary to  add  substance to  the  argument that administrative procedure has replaced due legal process. Police complaint statistics are 'confusing and misleading',28 and the practice of regularly changing the way they  are  compiled  and  presented,  by  Her  Majesty's  Chief Inspector  of Constabulary (HMCIC), the CPM and the PCA, inhibits analysis of long-term trends."

"A striking feature of  the  statistics is  that only  20  per cent  of  substantiated complaints lead to criminal or disciplinary proceedings. The reason for this is that the majority are considered not to require disciplinary action and are followed by  a supervisory officer giving  words of  advice or an  admonishment to  the  officer 
complained against *(the aforementioned "slap on the wrist" )*. However, given the disparity between the number of successful malfeasance claimants (see below) and officers who face criminal or disciplinary proceedings as a consequence of  substantiated complaints, serious questions arise regarding the accountability of police officers"
*

"The importance of  this  comparative statistical exercise is  not  to  engage in argument over the relative merits of alternative remedies to police misconduct; it is to  demonstrate that police  unlawfulness is  more widespread than the  criminal statistics suggest"


*This one is also quite interesting: 

Police accountability and local democracy. Smith, S., J. (1986). _Area._ Vol. 18, No. 2 (Jun., 1986), pp. 99-107

"The  police complaints system deals with  individual grievances concerning police misconduct.  It  has  been  criticised  for  its  ineffectiveness:  the  process  is  lengthy,  it allows  the police  to  investigate  their  own misdemeanours,  and  it rarely  ends  in a disciplinary  recommendation  (less  than  one  per  cent  of  complaints  had  this  outcome  in 1980)."

Things have changed recently (e.g. IPCC), but many of the regulations still apply, and these do show the situation in general (across time as well as incidence). Sure, Britain is good compared to some places, but that is by no means a vindicating statement.


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