# Stomps and Slaps



## DavidCC

On another forum somebody was asking about some of these TOW clips. He asked, why does Larry stomp when he punches and slap himslef with his off-hand when he strikes. This can be seen in the "High Five" clip among others.

I think I understand the stomping as a technique to shift your body weight into the punch. But I am not sure that is what he is doing. I have no idea about the slapping. In fact, his body occludes the actual "slap" so I can't be sure that is even what he is doing... can somebody enlighten me please? (and in turn I will take that knowledge back to the other board )

Thanks!
David


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## Ceicei

DavidCC said:
			
		

> On another forum somebody was asking about some of these TOW clips. He asked, why does Larry stomp when he punches and slap himslef with his off-hand when he strikes. This can be seen in the "High Five" clip among others.
> 
> I think I understand the stomping as a technique to shift your body weight into the punch. But I am not sure that is what he is doing. I have no idea about the slapping. In fact, his body occludes the actual "slap" so I can't be sure that is even what he is doing... can somebody enlighten me please? (and in turn I will take that knowledge back to the other board )
> 
> Thanks!
> David


SGM Mr. Ed Parker did quite a bit of stomping and slapping. Mr. Tatum has trained with him, so that is not surprising to see the stomping and slapping would show as it is part of his training. There have been other threads on this subject, so let me see if I can find these for you. The debate had been on whether these movements actually contribute (as in enhancing power or target focus) to the technique, or if it is just a "way of doing" the movements.

- Ceicei


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## Gary Crawford

It's for effect,just like wrestling(sport enertainment type).Send him an e-mail and ask him.


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## RCastillo

I always thought the slaps were to represent hits to the opponent, and stopms to the legs/feet of the person. :idunno:


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## Rob Broad

The stomps can help increase the power of of stike or in other instances be a step onto the leg or foot or even sometime the body if the person has been knocked down.  The slaps ar usually involved in checking where the attackers appendages will be, sometimes the slaps are part of trampolining which is when you come off your own body to propell you into the next strike.


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## Touch Of Death

The slaps are your return motion apexes and are where you want your hands when you use the equation formula to identify a target, choose a weapon, the best angle, and cover.
Sean


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## kenpo_cory

Stomping helps with marriage of gravity and the slapping has different reasons, some of which have been mentioned. Just my limited 2 cents worth.


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## satans.barber

I always thought that the slapping was more to confuse the attacker than anything, as in they 'hear' twice as many blows landing as are actually falling on them. As far as I know this is supposed to help generate the effect whereby the attacker perceives so many blows landing that they go into a purely defensive mode, which allows you go get your strikes in. 

I also think it helps trin you to keep your hands tight and close in to your body ready for blocking and striking, rather than flailing them above as white belts often do, leaving giant gaps that people can strike through.

As for the stomping, as other people have said I think that's just to help with marriage of gravity, but also lifting one foot up as you're about to perform a major strike helps you to change stance and direction quicker if you have to turn your motion into a counter.

Ian.


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## pete

or, it might just be hollywood flash...


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

DavidCC said:
			
		

> On another forum somebody was asking about some of these TOW clips. He asked, why does Larry stomp when he punches and slap himslef with his off-hand when he strikes. This can be seen in the "High Five" clip among others.
> 
> I think I understand the stomping as a technique to shift your body weight into the punch. But I am not sure that is what he is doing. I have no idea about the slapping. In fact, his body occludes the actual "slap" so I can't be sure that is even what he is doing... can somebody enlighten me please? (and in turn I will take that knowledge back to the other board )
> 
> Thanks!
> David


In that particular clip I actually had to watch it again to see what you're talking about.    They are checks, they just didn't have anything to ck at the time, but we bring them into play every technique, and if they don't make contact with an opponent, they rebound off your body back into play.  Kenpo, we play a mean pinball, duh duh don  da duh duh LOL.

DarK LorD


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## mj-hi-yah

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> if they don't make contact with an opponent, they rebound off your body back into play. Kenpo, we play a mean pinball, duh duh don da duh duh LOL.
> 
> DarK LorD


I worked a drill on this recently with a friend, and while it may seem funny to actually allow yourself to hit/slap yourself, it is really quite effective and the rebound strike off of your body actually quickens the response and adds power to the strike. It is worth exploring! :asian:


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## Brother John

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> sometimes the slaps are part of trampolining which is when you come off your own body to propell you into the next strike.



Yes. This is one of the things which we in the AKKI put under the heading of "internal elastic recoil"...which is a bit more involved than just describing it as "slapping yourself" or "trampolining...to propell...", but they are definitely related I believe. MJ came closer to describing what "Elastic Recoil" is about.
((Good job MJ))

...and though some seek to be "flashy", Kenpo isn't interested in "Hollywood Flash". 

Your Brother
John


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## Brother John

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> It's for effect,just like wrestling(sport enertainment type).Send him an e-mail and ask him.


I must disagree. Though they can have such an effect...it does much more than just sensory impressions.
It's like the purpose behind a "Kiai"...it's SO much more than just a shout, but it does produce a shout in the adversaries ears...but what it does and how it functions is WAY deeper than that.
Sam-Ting with what you are calling a "slap".

Your Brother
John


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## Ceicei

I found the other thread that was discussing the slapping issue.  It is:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10554&highlight=slapping

- Ceicei


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## mj-hi-yah

Brother John said:
			
		

> Yes. This is one of the things which we in the AKKI put under the heading of "internal elastic recoil"...which is a bit more involved than just describing it as "slapping yourself" or "trampolining...to propell...", but they are definitely related I believe. MJ came closer to describing what "Elastic Recoil" is about.
> ((Good job MJ))
> 
> ...and though some seek to be "flashy", Kenpo isn't interested in "Hollywood Flash".
> 
> Your Brother
> John


Thanks Brother John :asian: It's great to have the terminology for this. If you have any literature on it I'd be very interested to see it!  

MJ


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## DavidCC

OK  Well, I guess I won't be paraphrasing an answer to post in the other forum hahaha I'm just going to link to this topic. Thanks for all the excellent information, and that old thread was also very very informative. One of these days I've got to go see Dr. Chapel!


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## howardr

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Thanks Brother John :asian: It's great to have the terminology for this. If you have any literature on it I'd be very interested to see it!
> 
> MJ




This isn't from the AKKI, but you still may find it valuable (I know that I do!):

http://www.canamma.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1979

I am referring particularly to "WHAT IS THE SLAP-CHECK?" by Dr. Chapel, which is quoted near the middle of the page.


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## mj-hi-yah

howardr said:
			
		

> This isn't from the AKKI, but you still may find it valuable (I know that I do!):
> 
> http://www.canamma.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1979
> 
> I am referring particularly to "WHAT IS THE SLAP-CHECK?" by Dr. Chapel, which is quoted near the middle of the page.


Howard thanks so much for sharing this link. :asian: This is great! It's funny, but somehow it seems to go back to Doc a lot! 

MJ


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## Ceicei

Doc was and still is one of the most analytical kenpoists.  Even though many of the motions/concepts/principles were showcased by Mr. Parker (and others), Doc has been able to make these clearer with his written analyses.

- Ceicei


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## mj-hi-yah

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Doc was and still is one of the most analytical kenpoists. Even though many of the motions/concepts/principles were showcased by Mr. Parker (and others), Doc has been able to make these clearer with his written analyses.
> 
> - Ceicei


Yes Ceicei he has a great mind  :idea:  and so much to share! :asian:


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## Kenpo Mama

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> The slaps ar usually involved in checking where the attackers appendages will be, sometimes the slaps are part of trampolining which is when you come off your own body to propell you into the next strike.



Agreed Rob, and MJ too,  i recently worked this very theory on the tech Shielding Hammer with my instructor it is great for positional checking and feeds right into the next strike adding power and speed.  Good stuff all around!

Donna :ultracool


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## Doc

Many of these movements are alignment functions as well as energy management vehicles, as well as a host of other things. The "slap" is a general term that has many subheadings of activity. "Slap-Check" as a term is purely generic.  Although there is no real physical principle "marriage of gravity," conceptually it serves the purpose of teaching some students about weight transference.


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## Brother John

satans.barber said:
			
		

> I always thought that the slapping was more to confuse the attacker than anything, as in they 'hear' twice as many blows landing as are actually falling on them. As far as I know this is supposed to help generate the effect whereby the attacker perceives so many blows landing that they go into a purely defensive mode, which allows you go get your strikes in.



VERY interesting thoughts there Ian! 
I'd never really thought about this 'fringe benefit' of it. Just another element for sensory overload (a term I'd heard Mr. Mills use).
Your Brother
John


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## bluenosekenpo

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> I worked a drill on this recently with a friend, and while it may seem funny to actually allow yourself to hit/slap yourself, it is really quite effective and the rebound strike off of your body actually quickens the response and adds power to the strike. It is worth exploring! :asian:



recently i started training with sticks (dog brothers) and what you're describing is a very effective technique borrowed from pikiti tirsia. it may be hard to see with empty hands but you put a stick in that hand and you will appreciate the power behind the rebounding move. For example, a horizontal slash right to left, as the stick starts to decelerate toward your left shoulder you quickly whip(rotate) your hips and shoulders in the opposite direction, bouncing the stick off your shoulder back the way it came. The power generated is just as great as the original slash, and you effectively returned a strike at the half beat. awesome.

you've probably experienced the same thing using the opponents body, for example, chinese sword(tracys). instead of a strong inward block to the right hand punch, then into the handsword to the throat, try a handsword to the radial nerve in the forearm, allow the contact with your opponent to propel your next handsword(bounce) to his neck, allow your hand to pull your body with it. i find this to be a much quicker and more powerful way of performing this technique.

hopefully these examples aren't too simplistic. play with the concept, you will be delighted and impressed with the results. train like a tiger.


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## mj-hi-yah

bluenosekenpo said:
			
		

> recently i started training with sticks (dog brothers) and what you're describing is a very effective technique borrowed from pikiti tirsia. it may be hard to see with empty hands but you put a stick in that hand and you will appreciate the power behind the rebounding move. For example, a horizontal slash right to left, as the stick starts to decelerate toward your left shoulder you quickly whip(rotate) your hips and shoulders in the opposite direction, bouncing the stick off your shoulder back the way it came. The power generated is just as great as the original slash, and you effectively returned a strike at the half beat. awesome.
> 
> you've probably experienced the same thing using the opponents body, for example, chinese sword(tracys). instead of a strong inward block to the right hand punch, then into the handsword to the throat, try a handsword to the radial nerve in the forearm, allow the contact with your opponent to propel your next handsword(bounce) to his neck, allow your hand to pull your body with it. i find this to be a much quicker and more powerful way of performing this technique.
> 
> hopefully these examples aren't too simplistic. play with the concept, you will be delighted and impressed with the results. train like a tiger.


Yes exactly! I saw a timing drill where you can use sticks in this very same way on a wavemaster (standing kick/punch pad) It may have been Mr. Mills' drill. It's the same principle and amazing how effective it can be. 

Hi Doc... if you tune back in to this. I read the link from Howardr (another great read) and was interested in the idea presented there as to how improper targets on your own body can actually cause self damage with this type of movement. If it's possible can you expound on this at all?

Thanks,
MJ


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## pete

bluenosekenpo said:
			
		

> for example, chinese sword... try a handsword to the radial nerve in the forearm, allow the contact with your opponent to propel your next handsword(bounce) to his neck



yeah... rebounding shots off opponents targets is great... like two birds with one stone~ however, what's a little suspect is the extent to which slappin' yourself silly enhances your ability to defend yourself. is it a just a multi-sensory parlor trick with more style than substance when demonstrating a move "in the air"? 

Perhaps it can be used as a training tool for solo practice, with the careful understanding that self striking is a surrogate for an absentee attacker, but not an integral part of the actual technique execuiton.

i've seen it adversely affect people's execution against a live body.  For example, Glancing Spear, where someone i know thought for quite a while that eye strike was supposed to glance off their own forearm rather than attackers arm. 

pete.


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## Rob Broad

Since the length of time it takes to do a technique is usually under 5 secinds I doubt anyone will slap themselves silly.  These slapping strikes aren't for beginner student.  They should come into play later in the students evolution.  One of the problems we have today is instructors try to give too much information to a student right in the beginning.  The instructors sometimes forget how they themselves eveolved and think they whether conciously or not that they can bring there sudents to that level and sometimes miss some oof thw key steps along the way.


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## pete

> One of the problems we have today is instructors try to give too much information to a student right in the beginning



right on rob!  that also goes hand in hand with an instructors ego and sometimes a bad habit of showing off.  even with good instruction, a student will have a tendency to try to imitate their instructor.. especially a beginner trying to look cool, before learning the why's and where-for's... which could lead to misunderstandings of basic fundamentals. 

in my opinion, most of the self-inflicted slaps tend to occur when a technique is done in the air, without a live body. however, i also notice these same  artists running the same techniques in forms without the slap checks or stomps.  why is this?

i tend to prefer forms for solo practice, and the techniques (as _applications_) for partner practice.  applications are tough to practice alone, and can sometimes lead to fundemental misunderstandings... to which many of the self inflicted slaps contribute...

pete


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## bluenosekenpo

pete said:
			
		

> yeah... rebounding shots off opponents targets is great... like two birds with one stone~ however, what's a little suspect is the extent to which slappin' yourself silly enhances your ability to defend yourself. is it a just a multi-sensory parlor trick with more style than substance when demonstrating a move "in the air"?
> 
> Perhaps it can be used as a training tool for solo practice, with the careful understanding that self striking is a surrogate for an absentee attacker, but not an integral part of the actual technique execuiton.
> 
> i've seen it adversely affect people's execution against a live body.  For example, Glancing Spear, where someone i know thought for quite a while that eye strike was supposed to glance off their own forearm rather than attackers arm.
> 
> pete.



fair comment, though i don't think anyone is advocating slapping themselves silly, i'll go back to the stick fighting example. imagine, if you will(twilight zone music in the background) that each strike is a single beat..1...1...1...
then you introduce the slap or rebound 1...1.2.1..., this is very effective. not a parlour trick. you've redirected your energy in a totally different direction, broken your rythem, it's unanticipated.

top dog, eric knauss, saw some of the phillipino masters going through this slapping procedure. it baffled him until he realized that you can use parts of your body to imbue new energy to a strike. i wasn't sure, so i tried it myself. hell yeah it works. you try it. maybe you'll see it's value, maybe not. just keep an open mind. regards, train like a tiger


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

I posted a comment under the Origin of Alternating Maces piece. Used this a s a PS:

_Slapping and Stomping...done right, in the right places and for the right reasons, it's related to a great many things. Like proper structural alignment after stepping back into a neutral bow. Trick is to learn when and where it's appropriate, versus when and where it's just dramatics and noise._

People see an instructor doing someting (i.e., Parker stomping), and imitate without understanding; he also had a reputation amopng those who knew him well for blowing people off who had silly questions:

"Is that just for show, like in professsional wrestling?"
SGMEKP: "Yeah, sure.  Why not. That's exactly what it's for." or, "No. It's there to scare the other guy by making a lotta noise" (chuckled quite a bit when I hear this). 

Now everybody in certain kenpo downlines stomp, and few know why. Net result is a lot of stomping going on in the wrong places. Doc blew my mind with some simple stuff about properly placed stomps and slaps; as it is his material, it is not my place to divulge it without his permission. I will say it was unlike any kenpo stomping I'd seen before. 

When I studies Mr. Parker as an experiment, he would hit himself at various places as he passed them on his way to the next move. Didn't think much of it, but did notice that NOT A SINGLE BLACK BELT IN THE ROOM was doing the same thing he was, or even stopped to ask him if they should/why they might.  Turns out some of those self-slaps have an effect of neurologically attenuating synergists, de-activating competing antagonists, and placing a plyometric pre-load on major agonists (pre-stretch leading to more explosive discharge in movement).

Careful not to displace what you don;t understand.

Dave


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## pete

> neurologically attenuating synergists, de-activating competing antagonists, and placing a plyometric pre-load on major agonists... Kembudo-Kai Kempoka



Dr Dave, with all due respect, unless that can be phrased in english that can be understood and applied by martial artists and doctors alike, i'll be filing it as _hollywood flash _ of the tongue. 



> Careful not to displace what you don;t understand



from our usual agreement in other topics, i trust that you have found value in this. but from my observations much of the slapping is monkey-see, monkey-do, excessive, and to the detriment of good technique.... style over substance... hollywood flash!

i hope you can elaborate on your position, the _"Trick is to learn when and where it's appropriate, versus when and where it's just dramatics and noise"_

also, if you can, comment on its use in video clips that started this thread...

pete.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Not sure how to do that cool multi-filed quote thing, so pardon my text blocks, hapaharzardly addressing topics.

First, you nailed it on the head with monkey-see/monkey do...it mostly wrong. There are motions of the body that set the stage for the next motion by turning some mucsles on, some off, and setting other in an idle, waiting for activity. Doc likes the slap check, but I'm having a wonderful time with experimenting with body- and posture alignment mechanisms. More on that later, cuz I gotta go to bed soon and want to get out the Hollywood of the tongue thing.

Agonist = the main muscle used to complete a motion. Picking your hand up to your face to pick your nose is a combo of many motions, most of them controlled or driven by the biceps. The biceps brachii has three main functions: flexion at the elbow (like posing for Ahnold), forward flexion at the shoulder (elevating your arm towards a heil-hitler direction) and wrist supination (turning your wrist to look at the palm-side of it, and not the watch). The Biceps is then the Agonist (main player) in raising your hand to pick your nose...you have flexion at the shoulder and elbow, combined with supination. But the biceps is not alone...there are other players...synergists.

Synergists = some buncha other mucles that aide in one or more of these motions. Brachioradialis and brachialis are muscles that aid in flexing the elbow; coracobrachialis helps raise the arm at the shoulder, as does the anterior division of the deltoid; serratus anterior and subscapularis fix the shoulder blade to the ribcage so the whole thing stabilizes to allow the raising of the arm to occur at a fixed point; in exterrnal rotation (really turning your arm so your watch faces the floor, and your palm faces the cieling), some of the chest muscles even help.

Antagonists = any guys on the block that control the opposite motions. Biceps is resisted by triceps; raising the shoulder towards external rotation is antagonized by the latissimus dorsi, which approximates the torso to the upper extremities with internal shoulder rotation (like reaching for a gun, but turning your wristwatch to touch the gun, instead of your palm).

If they play nice together, speed, power, and purposeful coordination result. If they play not nice, a whole spectrum of compromised mechanics results, yielding people fast but not strong; strong but not fast; and anywhere in the middle (including completely uncoordinated).

Note: Not all agonists completely compete! Some tension is necessary in antagonists in order to shape coordination! (hence the part of my phrase, "de-activating *competing* antagonists").

Now, consider an inward block. Some kenpoka teach sliding it directly off the hip, and to the opposite corner of "the box". Economy of motion, and such. Others teach to **** it back by the same-side ear, and stab at the opposite corner of the box. Still others teach sliding movements, slipping the block cleverly into position. Either way, the end position is much the same: Knife stuck in a block of ice in the far opposite corner from the shoulder of the arm delivering the block (or, sometimes, in front of the face). There is a thing called, simply, positioned resistance muscle testing. In this case, to shove on the block from different directions. Push down on the top of the fist...is it strong from that direction? Pull on it. Press it towards the person holding it. Lean on it from side to side. What is the positional stability of this thing we have hangin in the air?

Generally, a movement that was strong and sound getting to its destination, will remain strong and sound upon arriving there. Muscles are "called to action" by signals from the nervous system, and well after the call, there tends to be an echo...a metaphor meaning that the muscle stays activated at a higher level of residual tension. Just because we need a name, I'm going to take some artistic license and call this state "post-contractile attenuation". The more muscles that come out to play together nicely, the more post-contractile attenuation is in place. The harder for you to shove my block around with muscle testing.

Less muscles, or poorly coordinated timing of recruitment of major and supporting players, leads to crappier positional strength. The trick becomes this: How do we get the most/best muscles to come out to play, while not bringing out guys who will slow the game down? Slaps and stomps.

Doc utilizes a technique called "indexing", which, simply put, consists of 1) identifying positions which place optimal plyometric strain on agonist and synergist muscles, 2) neurologically attenuating synergists and happy/helpful agonists (kinda like revving the engine before letting the clutch out for a chirp) while "turning off" competing antagonists, and 3) moving from one index to another in such a way as to recruit maximal benefit through optimal alignment. But that's his stuff, and it's his place to elaborate or disclose as he will. I'll use a self slap thing and stay with simple biomechasnics & kinesiology/sports physio.

If I'm in a Right sided stance, and plan to throw a right/left/right combo, there will be a time when the right hand returns to my body. I can chamber it, or slap myself with it. Why might I cause myself so much damage? If I do it properly...say, off a returning right backfist, slapping myself on the left pec while the left arm is punching, I set up a couple of neuro mechanisms that will let me coordinate my strength and speed more bettah.

On the return path (bringing the first Right-armed strike back to my body), I'm firing biceps and pec (right side), but in just a coupla smilliseconds, I'm gonna be firing their antagonists...scapular retractors, shoulder abductors & extensors, and elbow extensors. Rather then slowing the whole thing down before letting it land on me, I can let it collide, allowing the inbound tension to die. This lets me get it to my "chambered" position a wee bit quicker, since I'm not bothering to slow it down. Let's make it better: I'll add some force. Any time I really stress an agonist, the antagonist is reflexively attenuated...this means by slapping myself with a biceps/pec contraction, I've already placed a pre-tension in the triceps and outer shoulder muscles...I'm revving the engine, but haven't yet popped the clutch. I can also be using this to signal my own body that, when the right hand slaps the left pec, the left strike stops travelling out...internal cue to avoid minor overextending, which actually steals power, and doesn't add it. And if I miss because I pulled the left back too soon on cue? Isawright...I got the right in the chamber, revved up, ready to pop the clutch.

Plyometrics = that revved up pre-load. Try to jump as far up as you can without bending your knees first. Not very high, eh? Now bend your knees first...that moment before you press off the ground is a pre-contractile load (actually it is a positioned eccentric contraction, in a pre-concentric tension position, blah, blah, ...for verbal economy, it's nicknamed in the field "pre-contractile load"). Up from here, you will generate more force, and jump higher. Now for a really funky experiment. Before you jump as high as you can, jump off of a short stool or box, allowing yourself to lower into a half-squat, THEN leap into the air as high as you can. If you're normal, you should notice quite a difference. Now...just for kicks, set up this plyo preload by jumping off the box, but don't make any noise. Nevermind. You should hear a stomping sort of sound.

This long-winded thing to explain could have been shown in 30 seconds, so sorry for the bleah-thora. 

Stomping with the rear-foot stepping back into a neutral bow = hollywood flash and useless noise. Stomping with the lead foot after the rear foot has planted = appropriate timing and placement.

As for stomping in general, Doc had a great example about properly placed stomps setting up proper alignment. He noted that people skip a step or two prior to breaking into a run. This sends a whole buncha messages back and forthe between brain and body about changing attenuation of the muscles throughout the body, *setting up proper mechanical alignment* of the spine and pelvis *to support the activity*. You could break into a run without it, but may find yourself feeling awkward until you skip-step to fire off those aligning reflexes. Well-placed slaps and stomps set up reflex mechanisms that aid in power and coordination. Poorly placed ones just make noise.

Unfortunately, you could probably count on 2 peoples hands the number of black belt instructors who know the difference, and even fewer who know they know it, and can intentively impart it.

As for the video clip at the front end of the thread...would have to watch it first. 

File it as you will,

D.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

How funny.  The anti-swearing auto-edit function asterisked my word for pre-positioning (same as pulling back the hammer on a gun...you ___ the gun).


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Doc said:
			
		

> *Many of these movements are alignment functions as well as energy management vehicles*, as well as a host of other things. The "slap" is a general term that has many subheadings of activity. "Slap-Check" as a term is purely generic. Although there is no real physical principle "marriage of gravity," conceptually it serves the purpose of teaching some students about weight transference.


'nuff said. The answer was here the whole time, and in such plain sight that nobody saw it.

D.


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## Brother John

pete said:
			
		

> right on rob!  that also goes hand in hand with an instructors ego and sometimes a bad habit of showing off.



Agree and disagree here Pete.
Many an instructor jumps the gun on how soon to begin teaching more advanced things...but I'm not so sure it can always be chalked up to 'ego'. Sometimes, sure. But I think that often an instructor wants to get their student "on to the _good stuff_  as soon as they can...not realizing that what will make or break their students progress IS the fundamentals.

Mastery is a matter of SOLID basics! The first lessons are the most crucial. Too many see them as something to get past. Too bad really, because all the intermediate and advanced stuff is ...are the basics expounded upon.

Your Brother
John


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## DavidCC

Oooooooo after reading that post my Kempo just got a little better...


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## Kenpo Mama

Dr. Dave,

This is a fantastic explanation, you have given me so much to think about and analyze.  I'm going to print this out along with some of Doc's stuff and file it in my notebook, thanks for taking the time to explain.  It is definitely much clearer to me now.

Donna  :asian:


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## pete

dr. dave,

that was without doubt the best description of the why's and where-for's of slaps and stomps i've ever read.  i'm sure is speak on behalf of many readers of this board when i say _thank you _ for the obvious time and effort required to describe such complex material in understandable language.

much of what you've described makes the case for whole body unity and structural alignment, both of which i am in complete agreement.  but, is the stomp simply being used as a trigger to encourage the principles of single-weightedness? and are the slap checks neuro-muscular triggers used as a device to develop whole body unity?  

if so, there are more modest and traditional methods of developing toward those goals, methods that do not carry the same drawbacks... how good can a method be if only a coupla handfuls of kenpoist really get it, and the rest are just flailing away?

you've got me hooked, but ain't reeling in yet...good work dr. dave!

pete.


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## Doc

pete said:
			
		

> dr. dave,
> much of what you've described makes the case for whole body unity and structural alignment, both of which i am in complete agreement.  but, is the stomp simply being used as a trigger to encourage the principles of single-weightedness?



No, not as I understand "single-weightedness."


> and are the slap checks neuro-muscular triggers used as a device to develop whole body unity?



No as well.



> if so, there are more modest and traditional methods of developing toward those goals, methods that do not carry the same drawbacks...



I was not aware of any drawbacks to this methodology. What are your perceived short comings?



> how good can a method be if only a coupla handfuls of kenpoist really get it, and the rest are just flailing away?



The validity of the methodology relative to the number of people "getting it," would seem to be mutually exclusive. It may say many things about what they learned and what was taught to them, and perhaps their true level in the arts. In fact, Parker relayed to me just the opposite philosophy. "If everybody is doing it, it can't be the higher levels." The very nature of mastership and professorship suggest fewer and fewer persons will attain such levels. At one time in kenpo, only Ed Parker knew. The validity was with one person. In my opinion, the fact most didn't understand, didn't "get it," or weren't taught is irrelevant. Perhaps it speaks more to the fact so many claim "grandmaster," "professor," "master," sibok," "sifu," "sensei," "guru", etc with no basis to make such claims with so limited knowledge themselves. But those belts do look nice on them don't they as they are "flailing away?" On that we can definitely agree.


----------



## pete

Doc said:
			
		

> No, not as I understand "single-weightedness."



i'll trust that you understand the principle as i do... i was actually drawing a correlation to something i've learned as a "dragon stomp", which isn't really a stomp as i've seen in kenpo, and may not have relevance. 



> I was not aware of any drawbacks to this methodology. What are your perceived short comings?



i've given examples in prior posts, which i'm sure you must have read before replying... 

there are more traditional methods for developing counter-resistance for power and stability, and elliptical paths for continuity and quickness.  if the slap checks are there to trigger physiological reactions, then i've not had the opportunity to learn them "hands-on"... and as good as some of the posts have been, written words will probably not do it justice.



> But those belts do look nice on them don't they as they are "flailing away?" On that we can definitely agree.



unfortunately... 

pete


----------



## Doc

pete said:
			
		

> yeah... rebounding shots off opponents targets is great... like two birds with one stone~ however, what's a little suspect is the extent to which slappin' yourself silly enhances your ability to defend yourself.


"Slappin' yourself silly" doesn't. I agree with you Pete sir, and unfortunately of those that attempt it have no idea what they're doing beyond "mimicry." the majority don't do it at all because no one teaches "how" or correctly.


> is it a just a multi-sensory parlor trick with more style than substance when demonstrating a move "in the air"?


For the unknowledgeable "slap happy," unfortunately, you're correct again.


> Perhaps it can be used as a training tool for solo practice,...


Well actually you're on to something there. It's called SET training for "Singular Execution Training." The human body is in constant physical flux that requires input from external stimuli to determine the state the body should be in including but not limited to; structural integrity, or not, direction of action, required weigth distribution, location of appendages, etc.


> with the careful understanding that self striking is a surrogate for an absentee attacker, but not an integral part of the actual technique execuiton.


Well sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. The body takes input from literally thousands of external and internal sensors, and is dependent upon counter-resistence for structural integrity. To execute a move in anticipation of significant contact where the contact does not actually occur, has a detrimental impact on structural integrity. Properly executed "slapchecks" in S.E.T. Training are always functional and valid whether alone or with a partner.


> i've seen it adversely affect people's execution against a live body.


I have as well by those who don't know what they're doing. There are several "groups" who seem to like to "slap" their own ribcage underneath their arm. Very bad indeed to the knowledgeable done at the wrong time, and could cause significant damage to the executor.


> For example, Glancing Spear, where someone i know thought for quite a while that eye strike was supposed to glance off their own forearm rather than attackers arm.


Well you know that's the product of, at the least, momentary incompetent instruction, or a misunderstanding on the part of the student. Pick one.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

The truth may not be pretty, but it is what it is. The ultimately interesting question for me remains...how many are willing to put down their laurels to pick up a pen and paper, and learn?  I see kenpo 20 years from now divided into even further sub-divisions, each proclaiming lineage to a great senior, few providing meat-on-bones data to chew on and digest, metabolizing into ones Self to become stronger and better at a multiplicity of levels.

I had a friend in Learning and Memory who's rat was perpetually distracted in the maze. In a fit of frustration, he picked the rat up, stared it square in the face, and yelled, "LEARN, DAM'IT, LEARN!!".  The rat quickly adapted to the task at hand. A message embedded in my mind until such time as death or senescence are fated to take it away.

D.


----------



## mj-hi-yah

Doc said:
			
		

> I have as well by those who don't know what they're doing. There are several "groups" who seem to like to "slap" their own ribcage underneath their arm. Very bad indeed to the knowledgeable done at the wrong time, and could cause significant damage to the executor.


 Doc,

Is this more a matter of incorrect timing of the rebound movement, or is the ribcage simply not a preferable choice for use as a springboard, or is it both? I am curious because the drills that I participated in had a particular timing in the sequence. 

MJ :asian: 


			
				Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> The truth may not be pretty, but it is what it is. The ultimately interesting question for me remains...how many are willing to put down their laurels to pick up a pen and paper, and learn? I see kenpo 20 years from now divided into even further sub-divisions, each proclaiming lineage to a great senior, few providing meat-on-bones data to chew on and digest, metabolizing into ones Self to become stronger and better at a multiplicity of levels.


Dr. Dave,

Including Doc, I have communicated with a few Kenpo practitioners through MT who share your vision for learning. I hope you will all continue to contribute here. You are able to translate some of these ideas into digestible pieces that I am able to comprehend and apply. Thank you for taking the time to post here!

MJ :asian:


----------



## Doc

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Doc,
> 
> Is this more a matter of incorrect timing of the rebound movement, or is the ribcage simply not a preferable choice for use as a springboard, or is it both? I am curious because the drills that I participated in had a particular timing in the sequence.
> 
> Dr. Dave,
> Including Doc, I have communicated with a few Kenpo practitioners through MT who share your vision for learning. I hope you will all continue to contribute here. You are able to translate some of these ideas into digestible pieces that I am able to comprehend and apply. Thank you for taking the time to post here!
> 
> MJ :asian:



Specifically, there are areas located on the ribcage, (as well as other parts of the anatomy), that can cause significant disruptions and reactions of the body, generating false cues of anticpated contact, and momentary spasmodic beathing and muscle spasms, that when coupled with an external stimulus can cause weakness and subsequent injury. It is a part of many startle reflex actions of the body that conscious awareness can not overcome as a part of the autonomic nervous system. Bottom line; Don't do it no matter how cool the "rhythmic slapping" sounds. It just tells the knowledgeable how much you don't know.

If my recollection serves me well, (and it does) you received an "F" for failure to complete your last assignment, so ....  -30-


----------



## mj-hi-yah

Doc said:
			
		

> Specifically, there are areas located on the ribcage, (as well as other parts of the anatomy), that can cause significant disruptions and reactions of the body, generating false cues of anticpated contact, and momentary spasmodic beathing and muscle spasms, that when coupled with an external stimulus can cause weakness and subsequent injury. It is a part of many startle reflex actions of the body that conscious awareness can not overcome as a part of the autonomic nervous system. Bottom line; Don't do it no matter how cool the "rhythmic slapping" sounds. It just tells the knowledgeable how much you don't know.
> 
> If my recollection serves me well, (and it does) you received an "F" for failure to complete your last assignment, so .... -30-


Thanks Doc...

Ok, I know the assignment soo sorry I hang my head in shame!:asian: I've been busy biting people.  I'll work on it TODAY! 

MJ :asian:


----------



## Ceicei

Found another thread that is somewhat related to the topic here.  There were a few nuggets found in there that were useful.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5245

- Ceicei


----------



## DavidCC

Singular Execution Training - this is a method to learn to limit the interference of antagonist muscles?  Did I read the correctly?

Can anyone describe exercises or drills that will help me learn to develop the muscular control necessary to coordinate agonists, synergists, and antagonist muscles?

Thanks!
David


----------



## Doc

DavidCC said:
			
		

> Singular Execution Training - this is a method to learn to limit the interference of antagonist muscles?  Did I read the correctly?
> 
> Can anyone describe exercises or drills that will help me learn to develop the muscular control necessary to coordinate agonists, synergists, and antagonist muscles?
> 
> Thanks!
> David



That is one thing it does. Think of executing a technique alone but giving your body most of the physical "cues" and resistence you would receive with a training partner, therefore making your singular training closer to reality and the actual execution of the technique with a "live" body. Every technique has to be individual "mapped," and timed in its execution and taught as a slight variation off of the default application.

Think of it as a mini-taiji form or set executed at application speed with the emphasis placed on proper body mechanics, timing, and focused application. Done properly the body is "fooled" and you can derive 80% of the benefit you would obtain with a live technique adversary.


----------



## mj-hi-yah

Doc said:
			
		

> That is one thing it does. Think of executing a technique alone but giving your body most of the physical "cues" and resistence you would receive with a training partner, therefore making your singular training closer to reality and the actual execution of the technique with a "live" body. Every technique has to be individual "mapped," and timed in its execution and taught as a slight variation off of the default application.
> 
> Think of it as a mini-taiji form or set executed at application speed with the emphasis placed on proper body mechanics, timing, and focused application. Done properly the body is "fooled" and you can derive 80% of the benefit you would obtain with a live technique adversary.


 Doc,

In focused application are you tensing your body? If so, are you tensing it only in places at points of impact or contact while practicing this? How is this different from practicing your techniques using overall body tension slowly and accurately?

Thanks :asian: ,

MJ


----------



## Doc

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Doc,
> 
> In focused application are you tensing your body? If so, are you tensing it only in places at points of impact or contact while practicing this? How is this different from practicing your techniques using overall body tension slowly and accurately?
> 
> Thanks :asian: ,
> 
> MJ


One assignment at a time.


----------



## mj-hi-yah

Doc said:
			
		

> One assignment at a time.


 LOL...Ok fair enough... it's signed sealed and delivered! Buritto?


----------



## mj-hi-yah

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Not sure how to do that cool multi-filed quote thing, so pardon my text blocks, hapaharzardly addressing topics.


 Dr. Dave,

To show you this here I have to do it in two posts. If you want to quote someone hit the "quote" button at the bottom of the post and then type this before the block you want to comment on:


----------



## mj-hi-yah

Then type this at the end of the block that you want to quote:

[/QUOTE] 
Then delete what you don't want to comment on and then make your comments at the end of the blocked quote/quotes.

MJ


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Then type this at the end of the block that you want to quote:


Then delete what you don't want to comment on and then make your comments at the end of the blocked quote/quotes.

MJ [/QUOTE] 
Thanks!  Gotta try that!


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

DavidCC said:
			
		

> Can anyone describe exercises or drills that will help me learn to develop the muscular control necessary to coordinate agonists, synergists, and antagonist muscles?
> 
> Thanks!
> David


For kenpo-specific movements, I will defer to Doc.  For motion, in general, there is a thing called "M.A.P." it out. Abbrev. for Mental Aptitude Patterning, and is a re-tool of the procedures of the New Behavior Generator from NeuroLinguistic Programming, specifically applied to physical motions.

In a nutshell, some part of your mind has been recording every physical movement you've made since you started kicking the inside of your mothers womb (note the pseudo-scientific, paraphysiologic reference to "mind" and not "brain"...I have yet to be convinced that Self resides in gray matter...rather, communicates through it as a conduit to the flesh...my own idiosyncrasy, and completely unrelated to the efficiency or application of the technique). This includes subtle effects of monosynaptic and polysynaptic reflexes, involved or associated with agonist/synergist/antagonist interactions.

For conversations sake, let's call this repository of information "deep mind".  In MAP patterning, what we do is to establish an open phone line with the deep mind, otherwise left out of the conversation.  So easy, it's decieving.  Worked on it with a guy who reeeaaallyy wanted to get a lead leg hook kick up clean (despite hip damage potential), was plenty limber (could do the splits to the front or sides, stretch head to knees while standing, relax into full lotus position), but could not get the kick above the level of his hip.  Where to start is in having an individual go inside, and watch -- from the 3rd person -- *a movie of them performing the move they want to do, as they want to do it.*

Run the movie, and watch it a couple times. *Bring it closer, and step into the movie*, so youre seeing the kick slashing out in the space in front of you, as if watching from your own eyes. Then, start to *notice subtle internal distinctions*...how are your feet and hips positioned, while you perform this tech perfectly? How does your pelvis shift to accomodate the raising of the leg, and the pivoting of the ball in the socket of the hip joint? 

Then move from general, to specific...

Performing this kick perfectly in your mind, and experiencing what it's like from the 1st person, which muscles twitch first? Is it a thigh flexor, initiating picking the kick up off the floor, ot is there a preparatory abdominal oblique contraction that happens first, to stabilize and position the pelvis to support the raising of the leg?  What next...hamstring contraction as you pull it to a pre-chambered position? And so on. Definitely expands your working awareness of your internal universe.

Having identified the kinesthetic chain of events, view the movie in slow-mo, and, standing there in real-time, just twitch the muscles associated with movements, as they occur in the film. Slowly speed the film up, and continue to "twitch it out", as the film gets closer to the speed of your desired execution. Notice when each mucle "turns on", as well as when each muscle has to "turn off" while handing off the baton to the next major muscle in the chain of events. 

Next, staying with the hook kick example, comes the Simon Says part. Imagine the kick done at low elevations, *see the path of travel it takes through the air, allowing it to leave a "trail" in the space before you*. In real time, with your eyes still closed, throw the kick so that it moves p.r.e.c.i.s.e.l.y through the trail prescribed in your minds eye. It will only take a couple of times, and with each miss, you can inquire within, "what change do I need to make in tension and timing of coordination to match the trail?". Asked directly, deep mind will answer, but usually with a general sense of the change you have to make, and not with words. When you get it at that height and speed, take it up a notch...higher, faster, stronger...notice what the differences are in the path of the trail, and inquire within about the accomodations you have to make to *stay in it*. (Simon [deep mind] says "this is what it will look like before you when all parts are in accord"...twitching it out, then shooting it off while continuing to ask Simon for adaptations, leads to letting your body tell YOU what the groove and synapses are for your own maximal performance, rather than you trying to dictate from the outside, in).

Just keep cranking it up, keeping the phone lines open, and you'll be amazed how quickly you can accomplish coordinated neuromuscular timing in execution.

Nutshell: Your body already knows how to do anything you want it to...plateaus are due not to a lack of determination, but communication...with the part of you that already knows how.  Learning is not the creation of optimal synaptic grooves, but discovery of their existence and expression of their contents. (Learning is not creation, but discovery).

Big idea, with warning: The only limitations of the mind and body are those we accept. Mom could perhaps pull Caddie off kid (urban legend), but would blow out multiple spinal discs and soft tissues throughout her body in the act. In experimenting with MAP with myself, students, and clients -- including professional ball players and olympic competitors -- we've erased the concept of performance boundaries, but also developed an appreciation for "everything in its own time", as well as doing the work to support the activity (i.e., get mom in the gym on 'roids for a year before trying to lift the caddie off the kid).

Personally, wanted to see how much energy, speed, and force could be generated into a three-move combo on a heavy bag.  I opened the lines, started the movies, and just kept urging the movies to go harder and faster. Surprised the poop outta myself (didn't know I could hit that hard or move that fast), but also tore part of my rotator cuff in the right shoulder.  Thought I, "the only limitations of the mind and body are those we accept...it's only pain, so keep pushing". So I did...the combo got harder and fatser (literally scaring the mook who was holding the bag, a veteran BB and Thai boxer), and the infraspinatus and teres minor & major kept tearing.  Use this wisely...just because we can do a thing with our bodies, doesn't mean we should (as Doc so wisely puts it).

Olympic pistol shooter I worked with nailed the "improvement through entering the movie of herself performing at the next level up" thing, but also had to go back to some physical development stuff because she was using her body differently. Offensive lineman from ther RAMS (when they were still in CA) found the intensity to stay 1st string with the younger guys, but crapped out due to injuries a few years later when they moved the team...his intensity was young, but not the tissues in his body.

*MIND MOVES MUSCLE!* And also coordinates the activities between them. You already know how, you just don't know you know it yet.

One of my favorite examples about this when touring and giving seminars was the big reverse punch question. Do you rotate the palm down early in the punch, in the middle of the punch, at the end of the punch, or throughout the motion?  Answer? Yes!  I have everybody in the class close their eyes, and imagine seeing their hand being brought up from their side, and placed in front of their face as if to look into their own palm. Then I'd have them twitch it out, then raise it slowly in the fashion prescribed by their own mind when they first envisioned it. Everybody in the room raises it a little bit differently, because each person in that room has lived their own lives, in their own bodies, with their own ongoing feedback. So whose was the *right *way? Each was their own, congruent with the path THEIR mind told THEM was the best application of coordination to achieve the desired movement.

You can "discover" the groove your body wants to play in by constant repetition...generally, by virtue of the ongoing feedback, you will eventually discover the groove that's optimal for you (or at least close enough). Now, let's say that guy becomes a teacher, but before he did, he discovered his OWN groove was performed best by turning the palm down at the end of the punch. That's what he'll teach, because that's what he knows to be true for himself. Rest of the class takes it as gospel truth, and says "this is how it's done", and you have a motion version of an urban legend.

As a teaser, I had several "conversations" with Mr. Parker about this...the "Wow" of the sale is to take a novice or beginner, work with them for a few minutes, and have them executing a move with the same speed, power, and full-body coordination of the senior we used for a model (i.e., watch Mr. so and so throw this 4-count combo...take that movie, run it in your mind...now step into it, so you're seeing the moves executed in front of you from the 1st person perspective...twitch it out, etc.). 

Just for kicks (no pun intended), take 1 of each of the following, and run the MAP drill with them, then just be aware of how those moves differ from your non-MAPped moves the very next time you train:

1. A block
2. A strike
3. A kick
4. A short (i.e., yellow, orange, etc.) Self-Defense technique or sparring combo.

MAP them out, and let me know what happens.  But *have a limit pre-defined to avoid injury.* For example, "I want my front snap kick to be 6-inches higher, and 50% faster than it is now". The specificity of outcomes also gives you a target movie for your deep mind communication, as opposed to being vague (you get what you ask for, so be specific). If you reach the bar in short order, experiment with raising it by specific increments, and watch how the communication/performance dynamic evolves. Example: "Now, I want to perform this SD tech 3% faster than I currently do, with the strikes landing 10% harder... What will I look like at 3% faster? How will it feel on the inside when I'm hitting 10 percent harder? How will by body moving through space sound differently? (kimono's make different noises when the body is in different gears. For some, this is the most important key to identifying and unlocking new potentials). Make the movie, switch from 3rd to first person by stepping in, follow along with twitches, SIMON SAYS with LSD trails, etc.

You can use this for golf swings, tennis games, distance running (gait refinement for speed improvement with energy conservation), penmanship, typing speed, you name it. *It's all about getting in touch with the part of you that already knows...the part of you that already can*.

*Psychological Warning*:  Many minds do best in a world with defined parameters. If you start futzing with boundaries of percieved reality (i.e., "It is the law of the universe that improvement only comes with long years of exhaustive repetition"), a mind thusly stanced may be apt to become a little shaky. Some part of you is bound to ask, "If I can change this with an appropriately designed intervention technique, what else that I've accepted as a limitation of mind and body might actually not be?". Unfortunately, I've seen some folks get a little wierd after playing around with Deep Mind potentials. So tread thoughtfully, and with ongoing introspection and awareness.  If you find yourself challenging limiations you otherwise have a need to honor, stop.

Dr. Dave


----------



## Michael Billings

Dave,

 I am not sure what NLP has to do with this.  I was a therapist (psycho) [yes, I meant the pun], and Neuro-Linguistic Programming was one of the many seminars I attended and practiced, but do not see it's relevance in terms of MAP (Mental Aptitude Patterning) which I do see as relevant and applicable, in the same way we all used, as Mr. Parker called it, Positive Mental Imaging (which I still use), bringing the Ideal as visualized (after ensuring the student "visualizes the correct movement") into the physical realm through successive approximations and positive reinforcement.  Coaching, kinesthetic awareness being taught for the correct movement, mirrors, video taping, and final results can all be used to help achieve this.

 But somehow I am missing MAP as an offshoot of NLP?  I know I changed careers years ago from therapist to administrative law judge, but still have friends in the community and stay interested (my ex is a PhD psychologist, and my current wife a case worker), so what am I missing here?  NLP being used to interpret opponent's reactions yes, although as a rule we would not have time to be that observent in a life or death situation (that is we would not have time to read that quantity of small cues -- the larger grosser ones, eye shift, shoulder drop, hip flexation, etc, we may pick up.  But not at night, outside the ATM with your hands up.  In a classroom, sparring, as we get to know each other in technique lines ... then the "tell" becomes more obvious.

 Am I off base here in how you define NLP?  Does this thread on Slaps & Stomps really have anything to do with this much more refined type of subliminal cues?  Is it worthy of it's own thread contingent on interest?

 -Michael


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> Dave,
> 
> I am not sure what NLP has to do with this. I was a therapist (psycho) [yes, I meant the pun], and Neuro-Linguistic Programming was one of the many seminars I attended and practiced, but do not see it's relevance in terms of MAP (Mental Aptitude Patterning) which I do see as relevant and applicable, in the same way we all used, as Mr. Parker called it, Positive Mental Imaging (which I still use), bringing the Ideal as visualized (after ensuring the student "visualizes the correct movement") into the physical realm through successive approximations and positive reinforcement. Coaching, kinesthetic awareness being taught for the correct movement, mirrors, video taping, and final results can all be used to help achieve this.
> 
> But somehow I am missing MAP as an offshoot of NLP? I know I changed careers years ago from therapist to administrative law judge, but still have friends in the community and stay interested (my ex is a PhD psychologist, and my current wife a case worker), so what am I missing here? NLP being used to interpret opponent's reactions yes, although as a rule we would not have time to be that observent in a life or death situation (that is we would not have time to read that quantity of small cues -- the larger grosser ones, eye shift, shoulder drop, hip flexation, etc, we may pick up. But not at night, outside the ATM with your hands up. In a classroom, sparring, as we get to know each other in technique lines ... then the "tell" becomes more obvious.
> 
> Am I off base here in how you define NLP? Does this thread on Slaps & Stomps really have anything to do with this much more refined type of subliminal cues? Is it worthy of it's own thread contingent on interest?
> 
> -Michael


Not NLP for assessing the opponent, but rather for communicating with your own unconscious, informed parts of the collective self...for accessing information otherwise unavailable. Making the connections with your internal parts during training that will aloow you to respond more naturally, rapidly, and authoritatively from the hands up position at the ATM.

I was fortunate enough to apprentice to one of the greater minds in the dark side of NLP, which acquainted me with an expanding network of Ericksonian Hypnosis & Brief Psychotherapy wizards, as well as NLP gurus of various ilk & application. I the went on to get a Masters in Communication Psych in Bruxelles...a specialty program combining/reconciling NLP with Speech Communication Theory, and Cognitive-Behavioral psych. Awesome program...I came outta there not too sure about what I knew, then got back to the states to help old friends, girlfriends, and acquaintences finish their doctoral theses...turns out the abuse in Belgique actually provided a very well-rounded and comprehensive overview into psych-related information analysis. Fun thing: They used altered states and NLP "drills" to install the information, and assist with improved learning and recall. 

Anyways, Early NLP = communication analysis, using provided verbal and non-verbal information to make inferences about changes in state and internal processing cues occurring in the mind of the observed. Bandler, prior to going off the deep end with his human design engineering money-making plop, started exploring "sub-modalities", and their relationship to "what's possible?"  (See "Using your brain for a change") as an expression of "New" NLP. There was also an intense "return to the source" movement...so much of NLP was patternized Ericksonian Hypnosis, that many of the NLP Seniors disenchanted with Bandlers antics hunted down the remaining disciples of Erickson, and studied everyting they could from/with them. Actually lead to some deeper understandings of the functional mechanisms of change that previously operated unidentified in the background of NLP's therapeutic intervention strategies.

A couple of threads come together: The idea that all capabilities are present, and come from within? Uncle Milton. Dr. Erickson believed quite literally that hypnotic remedies were simply the potentiation of unconscious resources, previously unidentified by the subject. 

NLP Pattern for installing a new behavior in place of an old one: New Behavior Generator. Starts with the map or model externalized (imagine a you who can, or someone you know who can...etc.), followed by futurepacing to generalize the performance of the new behavior to as many appropriate contexts (see/hear/feel yourself doing this new thing X in the places you will be doing it...); provides the mind a map (Maps and models of the world concepts from NLP...you have to have a conceptualization of a new thing, and a plan of attack for doing the new thing.). 

If you think about NLP as a *study of the structure of subjecture experience*, then one is left analyzing not only externally observable behaviors and their paralinguistic correlates, but INTERNAL behaviors as well (this is where I usually lose most psychs, because we had it so beaten into our heads that behavior is only those things which are externally observable.) If we extend the def of behav to include *INTERNAL, UNOBSERVABLE* events...such as changing your mind, or changing the content, focus or direction of your thoughts...NLP becomes inclusive of inter-personal communication, as well as *INTRA*-personal communication (what we think to ourselves, how those thoughts are structured, and how they play accross the fields of the cognisphere of Mind). Count the activities in the Black Box as behavior, even though they cannot be externally observed.

PARTS THEORY OF NLP: The self is not a single personality, but rather a chorus of sub-personalities, each capable of functioing on it's own to identify individual, internal needs, and monitor the resource management of meeting those needs. Six-Step Reframe = communicating with the part responsible for some undesirable behavior/attitude/action/etc., "X". Then having the creative part of the unconscious mind (or, for this context, Deep Mind) generate hundreds of alternatives...pick the top three, and get all parts in accordance with experimentation with these new behavioral alternatives.

There are still Communication Analysis model seminars taught over weekends, or even successive weekends. Much of the new stuff either has to be learned as part of an ongoing training apprenticeship, or extended training commitment. None of the above is really new, as most of the ideas and over-arching "patterns" can be located in the old Frogs into Princes, Reframing, and Trance-Formations books (as well as NLP, Vol.1). Attention to the minute details of internal representations (sub-modalities) can be found in Bandlers "Using you brain for a change" book (I always loved that ambiguity), but I would take the seminar live if you're interested...lots of "live" information presented underneath the presenting context (that old "watch what he does as he speaks, but don't listen to him" thing). The application of the patterns for intrapersonal communication to access unconscious resources specific to physical performance of a concieved or observed task is not really new, but the guys who know it -- and are actively doing behavioral modelling with cog-B installation of new behaviors via NLP & Ericksonian trance work -- kinda make you hang out with them for while, assist them with their research and training schedules, and buy them a lot of dinners & beers before they'll let you in on their dirty little secrets.

All this really is is the New Behavior Generator pattern, re-tooled to include T.O.T.E. (Test-Operate-Test-Exit...most common example being adjusting the stereo volume to preference...Test: is it loud enough? No. Operate: turn it up. Test: Now is it loud enough? If so, Exit the task and move on to the next item) cues at each sub-phase of physical performance. (got the picture right in the 3rd person? Great step in.  Look right from the 1st person? Great, now time your twitches with those of the movie....and so on. In personal coaching sessions, we get real specific...What do you/will you see/hear/feel at each stage of this bigger, better, brighter you? What cues from the outside world (sound of gi on skin different?), as well as the inside (what do you feel in your body, and where, performing at this new level), will let you know you're at that higher place of performance? [outcome formation with VAK specificity...another NLP concept]).

I'm pleased to hear of a fellow psycho, the-rapist (ex) in the MA. I used to make some pretty good coin back in the day teaching NLP to Psychs (inc. LCSW's, PsyD's, etc). My personal favorite things were the accelerated learing and performance formats (company name, API: Accelerated Performance Institute...even made it out to Texas a few times). Next to that, Ericksonian conversational hypnosis. Absolutely love the subtle, conversational trance inductions, combined with repeating physical anchors during embedded commands, so you have a way of repeating the command to an undefended part of the patients mind, while back in the conversational therapy mode.

Anyways, as a historical piece, I've alluded to several chats with Mr. Parker regarding speed learning and performance. Mr. White introduced us at his studio in Costa Mesa in this context, and Mr. Parker and I had several subsequent discussions about the potential inherent in this model, and what could be done in kenpo if this model were taught to all students at a certain level. Did some process modelling with him, and some fun demo's of subtle improvement techniques, and it rang well enough with his accelerated learning interests that he wanted to collaborate on a project (article or book on the subject) when I returned from Belgium. He passed while I was gone, and that just kinda took the wind out of my sails with going anywhere with it. Been dusting off the old notebooks, becuase my chats with Doc have peaked my interest in re-learning kenpo, as well as techniques for increasing mastery of new movements, and spreading information/installing skill after I've put in my proper time and re-learned properly. 

Doc (and yes, this is directed at you, most kind and excellent sir) may not always take the absolute best care of his overall health (like any of us do?), and I want to make sure I'm johnny-on-the-spot with learning everything I possibly can from him, as fast as I can, while the stars of fate are aligned to allow such study to occur.



> Is it worthy of it's own thread contingent on interest?


Interest is the key. Knife-fighting seminars were filled, while "Creating Mastery from Within" halls were slight. A few years after walking away from it, I came accross an old draft for an initial article. I cleaned it up and sent it in just for memory lanes sake. Black Belt shot me back a thanks, but no thanks, stating they were looking for stuff more along the MMA lines for their publications. Every black belt I've worked with has shot through the cieling in their performance levels secondary to the coaching, but I maintain a privacy agreement with all my coaching clients...I don't tell anybody about you, and you don't tell anybody about me. Get my satisfaction watching from the sideline as clients whup on the competiton.  You can build a better mouse trap, but most folks are just too lazy, or too locked in to the belief that progress and change are hard, to explore what a new toy can do for them. Closest I came to really wanting to see it go mainstream was in the back-burner project with Mr. Parker. That having not seen fruition, I'd rather sit on it, waiting to be asked before I share.  David CC asked. As an enthusiast, I over-shared. Gladly.  I only got so deep into this stuff, because I love it. Like I've also said in other posts, when I do teach, it's with a small cache of dedicated students.  Why? Because we use this stuff to stretch the boundaries of what is possible. The content is incidental to the explorations, which themselves open new channels of mind/body coordination and cooperation (making the flow and mushin explord on another thread simple acts of flicking a mental trigger to return to a previously achieved flow or no-mind state). One student made me a t-shirt saying, "I Create Demons", because he was sure people alone could not achieve such results, in such short time, without being transformed into some other thing first. There is some really good stuff out there, but most folks don't care enough to step outside their boxes to learn what that might be. Those who do consider it their secret weapon, and don't wanna share. Makes spreading the good news a little challenging, particularly since I refuse to make a Tony Robbins-esque advert effort.

Regards,

Dave

PS -- if you're interested in a funky read that offers many things while teaching nothing in particular, pick up a copy of Richard Bandlers "The Adventures of Anybody". Does a lot of reframing of old, restrictive patterns and definitions in the field of human potential and behavior, all in the context of a tale, written in Ericksonian trance language. The simple generally miss it, because they try to follow the story line only, and not the manner in which the story is told. For your wife and ex, every therapist I know whose read it thoughtfully has experienced major insights into new approaches to their own therapeutic communication styles and objectives. My girlfriend is an LCSW involved in community mental health, as well as teaching seminars on how to work with BPD folks, so I've had a lot of chance to provide the read for others, then solicit feedback after completion.

Regards,
Dave.
Former NLP Mad Scientist


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## Michael Billings

OK, I am sure we are way off topic now.  Last post re: Learning Theory stuff.  

 I did the earlier Ericksonian hypnosis while using NLP.  That gives you my timeframe for learning and implementing NLP, which I found very useful, and of course self-hypnosis and insight to our own internal dialogue and responses was the very first part of the training.  I was being a bit disingenuous when I said I had done a seminar or two on it.  

 None the less, now, in my official MOD hat - back to the topic, or I can split this thread into two separate ones re: the original topic and "how to learn" or some other such thread for EPAK?

 Back on topic otherwise.

 -Michael Billings
  MT SMOD


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## mj-hi-yah

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> None the less, now, in my official MOD hat - back to the topic, or I can split this thread into two separate ones re: the original topic and "how to learn" or some other such thread for EPAK?
> 
> Back on topic otherwise.
> 
> -Michael Billings
> MT SMOD


:lurk: This is interesting, and if Dr. Dave is willing to continue with more of this, I'd really like to see you split it into two threads. 
MJ :asian:


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## Kenpomachine

I agree with MJ. This stuff on MAP and NLP has been very interesting so far.

Though I've heard of NLP before, it wasn't close to anything Dave wrote. And I never, ever thought it was something relating to envisioning the ideal and then actually doing what you've already envision.


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## DavidCC

if you split, please post the link to the other thread here.

I totally misunderstood what SET was, but I got an answer to the question I was really trying to ask anyway!

Althought this isn't exaclty on the topic of "why slap yourself" it somehow does seem to come together, to me at least. It will take me a while to digest all that Dr Dave wrote (and Doc C too!)

I know one thing, if I ever meet you, Dr. Dave, I am definately keeping you up all night. The later it got the more you wrote! 

excellent material but right now it has me totally 
:redeme:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

overwhelm and confusion are good signs you are about to learn something new.

D.


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## DavidCC

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> overwhelm and confusion are good signs you are about to learn something new.
> 
> D.


AH HA!  Concrete proof that I learn something new every day 

ROFL!


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## Michael Billings

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> :lurk: This is interesting, and if Dr. Dave is willing to continue with more of this, I'd really like to see you split it into two threads.
> MJ :asian:


 Try to continue the topic HERE


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## Hand Sword

I've watched some of the EdParker videos where he was teaching a class, and he explained the slapping yourself as a safety valve, where if your block or strike doesn't shoot fast enough and reach the target, your "slapping" will pick it up. The rebounding energy was also explained by other EPAK members I've spoken with. It was basically explained as being able to put "the ball in play" faster, rather than overcoming the inertia of a chambered strike, plus not allowing it to get trapped to your body (as I found out training with Kung Fu students).


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## Doc

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> It's for effect,just like wrestling(sport enertainment type).Send him an e-mail and ask him.


Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about. A self-defense art that uses "slapping & stomping" for sport entertainment? Clearly you didn't thing that through too well did you.


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## Mark Weiser

Slapping is an effective tool to speed up your attack. Think of it as throwing a baseball and it strikes the bat. The baseball rebounds from the bat at a greater speed than it was thrown.  Try this for a test we learned this the other day in Shaolin Class. 

When crossing your arms in front of your chest to do a dbl block inside to the outside from your center from your lower gates aka abdominal area. Strike your forearms together as they cross each other you will a pick up in speed. It works.


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## BallistikMike

Doc said:
			
		

> That is one thing it does. *Think of executing a technique alone but giving your body most of the physical "cues" and resistence you would receive with a training partner, therefore making your singular training closer to reality and the actual execution of the technique with a "live" body*. Every technique has to be individual "mapped," and timed in its execution and taught as a slight variation off of the default application.
> 
> Think of it as a mini-taiji form or set executed at application speed with the emphasis placed on proper body mechanics, timing, and focused application. *Done properly the body is "fooled" and you can derive 80% of the benefit you would obtain with a live technique adversary*.


Sorry to revive this old thread, but it is down right awesome.

The bold and underlined text piqued my interest.

I guess I would ask if this could be explained in greater detail? 

I am wondering as the technique flows are you "slapping" yourself simulating an attackers response to your response? Giving yourself reaction off of action? 

Are you throwing the counterstrikes of your opponent for him and faster then he could actually throw them? Using a live body just as a reference point and allowing your mind to play the "what if" scenario at intense speed because you know where you are taking it and then throw the shot at yourself "slapping" to execute the next stage of the technique. Does that make any sense?


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## MJS

Bumping this back for discussion.


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## SL4Drew

Funny, Doc just discussed this topic this past weekend at his seminar in Ohio.  Maybe someone that went to it will want to post their experiences and observations.


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## DavidCC

I am not exaggerating when I say that this, one of my earleist posts at MT, changed my life.


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## Doc

DavidCC said:


> I am not exaggerating when I say that this, one of my earleist posts at MT, changed my life.



They are called PAM's and BAM's and are essential to proper and efficient martial interaction as you found out on your visit. The depth of the information surrounding these simple mechanisms contains volumes of variables.


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## Doc

Hand Sword said:


> I've watched some of the EdParker videos where he was teaching a class, and he explained the slapping yourself as a safety valve, where if your block or strike doesn't shoot fast enough and reach the target, your "slapping" will pick it up.


If he said that, he was pulling somebody's chain, not giving out real info. He often did that when he didn't want to explain something.


> The rebounding energy was also explained by other EPAK members I've spoken with. It was basically explained as being able to put "the ball in play" faster, rather than overcoming the inertia of a chambered strike, plus not allowing it to get trapped to your body (as I found out training with Kung Fu students).


Well, if that is their understanding - I guess that is their understanding.


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## DavidCC

Doc said:


> They are called PAM's and BAM's and are essential to proper and efficient martial interaction as you found out on your visit. The depth of the information surrounding these simple mechanisms contains volumes of variables.


 
I can't hardly move without them anymore, and I've barely scratched the surface of it all.

I've noticed that people I work out with regularly are copying the PAMs but not so much the BAMs.  I've tried to teach them what little I know about it (mostly thru AOD) but they are mostly not into it.  oh well... it works for me.


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## arnisador

Doc said:


> They are called PAM's and BAM's and are _*essential*_ to proper and efficient martial interaction as you found out on your visit.



(*Emphasis* added.) When I see a statement like this I always ask myself, "Why don't boxers do it?" As much money is at stake, I imagine they'd do it if it improved their chances of winning, but (as I understand what you're discussing) I don't see it happening. As much money and as many people as are involved in it, it seems someone would've re-invented this in one form or another.

I'm assuming grappling is different so one wouldn't expect to see them in wrestling/judo/etc.? What about MMA, fencing,...?


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## bostonbomber

In TCMA, a stomp is sometimes used to rapidly transition the body weight to one leg so that the other is free to sweep, kick, etc.  It's a transition move that often gets over used, particularly when people train forms for demonstration (loud noises always get the audiences attention).  I have never heard on an application of slapping oneself in TCMA.


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## SL4Drew

bostonbomber said:


> In TCMA, a stomp is sometimes used to rapidly transition the body weight to one leg so that the other is free to sweep, kick, etc. It's a transition move that often gets over used, particularly when people train forms for demonstration (loud noises always get the audiences attention). I have never heard on an application of slapping oneself in TCMA.


 
That is one way we use the "stomp" aka PAM.  Pak sao would be the closest CMA analogue to a BAM or a "slapcheck."


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## Doc

bostonbomber said:


> In TCMA, a stomp is sometimes used to rapidly transition the body weight to one leg so that the other is free to sweep, kick, etc.  It's a transition move that often gets over used, particularly when people train forms for demonstration (loud noises always get the audiences attention).


Its more complicated than that, and structural integrity with activity anatomical congruency is tied to it.


> I have never heard on an application of slapping oneself in TCMA.


Ever hear of "Wing Chun?"


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## bostonbomber

Doc said:


> Its more complicated than that, and structural integrity with activity anatomical congruency is tied to it.
> 
> Ever hear of "Wing Chun?"



Are you referring to a pak sao?  We use the pak sao in Hung Ga as well.  That involves slapping your opponent, not yourself.


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## profesormental

Greetings.

The idea of BAM's and PAM's has come very naturally for me since my Wing Chun SiFu, when he stepped into us in sparring or Chi Sao, used to PAM the front leg while moving forward in a rear bow. So that is how I do it.

Also, the Wu sao (garding hand) always accomodated itself very much near the shoulder, where a BAM is done... now I emphasize it more for better effect. Many manipulations in the Chi Sao we do is explained and trained consciously in SL4.

And in Index set 101, about 90% of the movements are in Wing Chun's first form, except that in the Index Set, they are "activated" and ready for use without cooking.

Juan M. Mercado


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## Doc

bostonbomber said:


> Are you referring to a pak sao?  We use the pak sao in Hung Ga as well.  That involves slapping your opponent, not yourself.



Actually, you will find it is utilized both ways, and is the root of ALL TCMA sir.


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## DavidCC

bostonbomber said:


> I have never heard on an application of slapping oneself in TCMA.



"There are greater things in heaven and in the earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy..."

and here is an example, I think this is what you might call "TCMA".


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## bostonbomber

Thanks for the example on fa jing, which simply means "explosive strength" and should be a part of all martial arts, not just TCMA.  Your intent, or yi, is on the striking hand.  The opposite hand is pulled back to chamber or act as a counter-balance; it plays an important role but slapping yourself, to my knowledge, is not part of it.

When I said I have never heard of an application of slapping yourself, I meant exactly that:  I have not heard of an application of slapping yourself.  I'm sorry if it came across as me saying there was no application.


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## Doc

bostonbomber said:


> Thanks for the example on fa jing, which simply means "explosive strength" and should be a part of all martial arts, not just TCMA.  Your intent, or yi, is on the striking hand.  The opposite hand is pulled back to chamber or act as a counter-balance; it plays an important role but slapping yourself, to my knowledge, is not part of it.
> 
> When I said I have never heard of an application of slapping yourself, I meant exactly that:  I have not heard of an application of slapping yourself.  I'm sorry if it came across as me saying there was no application.



There's no problem sir. Sometime the written word doesn't always reflect the tone of our thought. There are significant applications, especially in arts like Mok Gar, and even Five Animal where I've seen much of it.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

bostonbomber said:


> Thanks for the example on fa jing, which simply means "explosive strength" and should be a part of all martial arts, not just TCMA. Your intent, or yi, is on the striking hand. The opposite hand is pulled back to chamber or act as a counter-balance; it plays an important role but slapping yourself, to my knowledge, is not part of it.
> 
> When I said I have never heard of an application of slapping yourself, I meant exactly that: *I have not heard of an application of slapping yourself*. I'm sorry if it came across as me saying there was no application.


 
Sifu Ark Wong has some prominent surviving students who, to this day, advocate the applications of self-slaps. Stomping, slapping, shuffling 5 family practitioners will know the reference. When you get to knowing more about his system than his top lineage survivors, let us know.

D.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

At the risk of having sounded a little abrupt in my last post, allow me to offer this for your review.

One of Ark Wong's senior students was a gentleman by the name of Ralph Shun. He had a student named Haumea Lefiti, and ex-Marine who had alsoready trained in Mok Ga in Taiwan. Meeting Mr. Wong with a letter of introduction, Mr. Wong set him up to train under Shun, initially. Later, Lefiti would become a direct and provate student of Mr. Wong, eraning his instructors rank and title in Wong's Five Family CLF system, including the Mok subsystem. Lefiti sought to condense the Mok Ga training keys into training exercises that would emphasize the repeated, most combat-applicable movements and sequences from the 700+ move Mok form, taught to him by Sifu Wong.

Hee called these line drills "Browns". Here's a link to the condensed Mok drills put together by Lefiti: 



 
Note the slapping, stomping, shuffling movements, with quick circular, semi-circular, and straight movements of the upper limbs, and directional shifts off the torso used to drive the power applications. Find some old kenpo footage, and you'll see what we mean about the influence on Mr. Parker, from this line. When I watch this, my brain keeps trying to interpret the moves into specific kenpo sequences I'm familiar with, because it looks so bloody much alike in so many ways.

Be well, and my apologies for the unecessary snarkiness,

D.


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## marlon

How loose or tense is the hand that slaps.  Is there tension when the check hits the body or shoulder or does it stay loose throughout the whole movement?

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Doc

marlon said:


> How loose or tense is the hand that slaps.  Is there tension when the check hits the body or shoulder or does it stay loose throughout the whole movement?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon




"Slap."


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