# Please Help With Crime Victim Identification



## Jonathan Randall (Sep 6, 2009)

As many of you know, a video surfaced recently on YouTube that contained footage of the brutal beating of an African-American young man aged 22-29 in a karate dojo. A number of experts have declared online that they do not believe his injuries were survivable absent immediate medical care which he may not have received. Please follow this link and help us find this young man and discover whether or not he re-appeared after this December 13, 1984 video. If he did not, than it may be a homicide and conspiracy case for which no Statute of Limitation applies. Thanks.

WARNING! GRAPHIC VIOLENT CONTENT IN THIS LINK:

http://kmz.me/crimevictim/assault.php

http://kmz.me/crimevictim/index.php

This young man deserves justice. Please help.


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## Flea (Sep 6, 2009)

I hate to be a naysayer, but what about statute of limitations here?  Is it still prosecutable at all?


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## Jonathan Randall (Sep 6, 2009)

Flea said:


> I hate to be a naysayer, but what about statute of limitations here?  Is it still prosecutable at all?



Only if the victim did not survive; than it is murder and no Statute of Limitations applies.


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## arnisador (Sep 6, 2009)

More detail here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1216108#post1216108


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## Carol (Sep 6, 2009)

Long time no see Jonathan! :asian:

The incident happened in the state of Virginia, which has no statute of limitations for felonies. However, based on the Washington Post article, the local PD in Dumfries, VA think the video is largely a non-issue.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...08/30/AR2009083002251.html?hpid=moreheadlines


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 6, 2009)

Does anyone recognize the MA style being used by the victim in the (disturbing) video?  I suppose it could be made-up, but he does appear to have some effective blocks and he defends against back fists and spinning back kicks very well.  Also, he counter-kicked and knocked the BB aggressor on his butt at one point early in the fight, as well as launching a kick that was well over the top of the BB's head.  What style does this resemble?  I realize he described himself as a 'kung fu' master and wore a sash, but I'm unfamiliar with CMA and am curious.


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## still learning (Sep 6, 2009)

Hello, The human body can be amaziong sometimes...the beatings it can take sometimes,, ..even from car crashes...and recover!!

Unless a his body was found?  ...we can only guest his injuries...and is still alive..

YES the Sensi...should have done just enough to end the fight...and NOT BE RUTHLESS...

Aloha,


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## suicide (Sep 6, 2009)

man if your so worried about catching this guy hire a private investigator ?


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## Jonathan Randall (Sep 6, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Long time no see Jonathan! :asian:
> 
> The incident happened in the state of Virginia, which has no statute of limitations for felonies. However, based on the Washington Post article, the local PD in Dumfries, VA think the video is largely a non-issue.
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...08/30/AR2009083002251.html?hpid=moreheadlines



Hello. Good to see you are still active in the arts and online here.

That info on the Statutes is useful, thanks.


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## K831 (Sep 6, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Does anyone recognize the MA style being used by the victim in the (disturbing) video? I suppose it could be made-up, but he does appear to have some effective blocks and he defends against back fists and spinning back kicks very well. Also, he counter-kicked and knocked the BB aggressor on his butt at one point early in the fight, as well as launching a kick that was well over the top of the BB's head. What style does this resemble? I realize he described himself as a 'kung fu' master and wore a sash, but I'm unfamiliar with CMA and am curious.


 
I had the same thought. In fact, I think the victim would have won, had he the right mindset or level of aggression. His problem came when he mentally conceded. Of course, it has been suggested that he may have been mentally ill or handicap.


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## Jonathan Randall (Sep 7, 2009)

New, edited YouTube video with stills and pleas for information. Please pass this link on: 






Thank You!

I am hoping that this thread can stay about assisting the investigation (in a legally appropriate manner, of course) and not about the styles and relative skill levels of those involved excepting in a way that helps identify the victim or otherwise sheds light on this case. I believe Arnisador pointed to a thread that contains style/fighting type of discussions on this incident. Thanks.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 7, 2009)

Jonathan Randall said:


> As many of you know, a video surfaced recently on YouTube that contained footage of the brutal beating of an African-American young man aged 22-29 in a karate dojo. A number of experts have declared online that they do not believe his injuries were survivable absent immediate medical care which he may not have received. Please follow this link and help us find this young man and discover whether or not he re-appeared after this December 13, 1984 video. If he did not, than it may be a homicide and conspiracy case for which no Statute of Limitation applies. Thanks.
> 
> WARNING! GRAPHIC VIOLENT CONTENT IN THIS LINK:
> 
> ...



I honestly don't know how any 'experts' can declare anything of the sort.  What I saw in the video, while graphic, wasn't any more brutal than many after school fights i've witnessed at the local ball field while I was in high school.  I hardly saw any indication of a 'fatality'.  Bottom line, a few 'experts' are talking out of the wrong end.

As for 'justice'.........the crime likely amounted to felony assault at most, and given that it's been 25 years......i'm suspecting the statute of limitations has long since expired.


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## Jonathan Randall (Sep 7, 2009)

Although I am sure this has not come from MartialTalk members, recent events in this case require me to clarify this plea: 

This is a PLEA FOR INFORMATION and *not a call for individual action and/or harassment of any concerned. Regardless of our feelings on this manner*, *this is a Law Enforcement issue and it is for them to handle*. We may, of course, lobby them to keep this issue alive, but direct action is theirs, and theirs alone.

Again, I apologize to MartialTalk and its members for saying this as I don't believe any members here have been making harassing calls to any in these videos, only that legal and ethical requirements make it imperative that these pleas are explicitly defined as for information and lobbying of relevant authorities ONLY. Thanks.

Heck, I'm not even active in the Martial Arts anymore, but the clip of this young man being dragged out of the dojo, unconscious and trailing blood as if he were a piece of garbage have got me activated and temporarily out of martial arts "retirement".


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## Jonathan Randall (Sep 7, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I honestly don't know how any 'experts' can declare anything of the sort.  What I saw in the video, while graphic, wasn't any more brutal than many after school fights i've witnessed at the local ball field while I was in high school.  I hardly saw any indication of a 'fatality'.  Bottom line, a few 'experts' are talking out of the wrong end.
> 
> As for 'justice'.........the crime likely amounted to felony assault at most, and given that it's been 25 years......i'm suspecting the statute of limitations has long since expired.



Stomping someone's head multiple times with full body weight and with a metal object (stand in this case) as a fulcrum and leaving them with (sound on some videos posted is better than others, I admit) obviously labored breathing, bleeding, and unconsciousness is an indication that the injuries are likely to be severe and possibly fatal untreated. I am not a doctor, but those who are have weighed in and say that the least occurred were severe injuries. Remember Natasha Richardson?

"Justice" isn't a parenthesis, sir, and Virginia doesn't have a Statute on serious felonies. You're an LEO, IIRC.

I'm glad to see you online again, but I must disagree with you here.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 7, 2009)

Jonathan Randall said:


> Stomping someone's head multiple times with full body weight and with a metal object (stand in this case) as a fulcrum and leaving them with (sound on some videos posted is better than others, I admit) obviously labored breathing, bleeding, and unconsciousness is an indication that the injuries are likely to be severe and possibly fatal untreated. I am not a doctor, but those who are have weighed in and say that the least occurred were severe injuries. Remember Natasha Richardson?
> 
> "Justice" isn't a parenthesis, sir, and Virginia doesn't have a Statute on serious felonies. You're an LEO, IIRC.
> 
> I'm glad to see you online again, but I must disagree with you here.



Obviously labored breathing is a sign of unconsciousness.  I saw no indication of a fatal injury.  If they've got an unsolved murder we'd have known about it by now.

I did just check, though, and Virginia is one of the 7 states in the US with no statute on felonies.......so they 'might' get these guys charged.

Personally I don't get worked up about fist fights between grown men that happened the year Bon Jovi debuted.  The only difference between this video and Friday night at the bar two blocks down is 1) They were wearing Gi's and 2) There was video tape.


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## Jonathan Randall (Sep 7, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Personally I don't get worked up about fist fights between grown men that happened the year Bon Jovi debuted.  The only difference between this video and Friday night at the bar two blocks down is 1) They were wearing Gi's and 2) There was video tape.



It wasn't a "fist fight"; it was a pre-meditated assault of a possibly mentally challenged young man who made very clear that he didn't want to fight.

Time passed = Zero relevance.

Again, IIRC, you and I usually agreed on such issues back when I was an active poster here years ago. I do respect your opinion, but must disagree on this.

Clarification: the consensus is that it is not known whether he survived the assault and NOT that his injuries weren't "survivable".


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## suicide (Sep 7, 2009)

man some one is putting to much on it ! look dude if any guy walks in to a dojo asking for it most likely he is gonna get it ? there was no audio to that video so i would have to hear his pleas for mercy to actually believe he didnt want to fight anymore and who ever said that he wouldnt of survived such an attack probably has never been in a ruff spot ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBqN...8ECB4B6B4&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4


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## Tez3 (Sep 7, 2009)

Anyone know why this video should emerge all this time later? It's turned up all over the place even on a UK MMA site I go on with the poster, a newbie, asking if we recognise anyone! It just seems strange that it turns up now.
The other thing that confuses me is that on one hand the OP is asking for anyone who recognises these people to come forward and then says  *" I don't believe any members here have been making harassing calls to any in these videos" *does that mean the people in the video are identified now?


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Sep 7, 2009)

I think he was referring in part to the instructor and the black belt student, whose names have been released and are probably contactable.

Styg, like you said, the difference in this video and any other fight is that they were wearing gi's, but it is that crucial fact that separates this assault from the other ones anywhere else. When you walk into the dojo, you are expected to present yourself in a certain manner, and black belts should have a degree of decorum that sets an example for the rest of the students.

That this man was mentally handicapped, I have no doubt, but it is possible he was no more handicapped than any other bozo who walks into a school with a few do-it-yourself karate chapters udner his belt or maybe a few years of another style. He tipped me off fairly quickly that he was not all that skilled when he would not identify his teacher, would not demonstrate on the black belt, and was, apparently, wearing a tie to the dojo.

It saddens me to think that there are dojos out there with this mentality, and I hope that somebody brings these men (all of them in the dojo) to justice, and the truth behind what happened to the victim comes to light.


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## Marginal (Sep 7, 2009)

suicide said:


> man some one is putting to much on it ! look dude if any guy walks in to a dojo asking for it most likely he is gonna get it ? there was no audio to that video so i would have to hear his pleas for mercy to actually believe he didnt want to fight anymore and who ever said that he wouldnt of survived such an attack probably has never been in a ruff spot ...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBqN...8ECB4B6B4&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4


Bobby Joe Blythe ran the dojo. 

This guy was brought in by the Dojo to beat up. (He didn't challenge. He was initially trying to demonstrate a technique with no contact when the BB started in on him.) They apparently made a habit of challenging drunks etc. 

The guy also verbally gave up well before he was stomped on the ground. 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e55_1250787987 (This one has sound.)


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 7, 2009)

suicide said:


> man some one is putting to much on it ! look dude if any guy walks in to a dojo asking for it most likely he is gonna get it ? there was no audio to that video so i would have to hear his pleas for mercy to actually believe he didnt want to fight anymore and who ever said that he wouldnt of survived such an attack probably has never been in a ruff spot ...



There are several things wrong with this.

If a person walks into a dojo and says they want to fight, I would expect someone would oblige them.  No problem.

However, the man said specifically that he did NOT want to fight, he wanted to demonstrate the forms that had been taught to him by Jesus Christ (presumably, I did not hear him say that on the video).  He was attempting to do just that when the BB student attacked him, saying _"Oh, you mean like this?"_

The victim told the BB to stop, and defended himself against the attack (pretty well, too, it appeared).  He repeated that he did not want to fight, only to demonstrate his forms, and he was attacked again and again.

A dojo is not a free-for-all.  If I walk in to my dojo tonight, I do not expect to be attacked by my seniors, and if I said _"Hey, stop it!"_ and they did not, that would be an illegal assault and battery of my person.  Being in a dojo is not the same as being in a free-fire zone.

Even if we get past that (the victim said he did not want to fight, and asked the attacker to stop), the attack continued long past the point where the victim was unable to continue to defend himself.   Stomping on his head as he lay on the ground bleeding and unconscious is a crime, in any place I know of. In the ring, on the street, in self-defense, etc.  There are simply no set of circumstances under which it would be OK for that BB to continue the assault once the man was out cold on the floor by stomping repeatedly on his head.

Then we get the ignoring of the man's obviously injured condition by refusing to render aid or even call for medical assistance, but to simply order the man dragged out the back door, stripped of his sash, and abandoned to his fate, whatever that might have been.

Oh yeah, there's a lot wrong here.  It's so sick, but for the quality of the video showing the man's wounds, I would have suspected it was a modern creation intended to promote a new movie - such as _"The Foot Fist Way,"_ which the sensei clearly resembles in an unintentionally ironic way.

(warning, language, situations, ugly portrayal of MA):


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## Tez3 (Sep 7, 2009)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> *I think he was referring in part to the instructor and the black belt student, whose names have been released and are probably contactable.*
> 
> Styg, like you said, the difference in this video and any other fight is that they were wearing gi's, but it is that crucial fact that separates this assault from the other ones anywhere else. When you walk into the dojo, you are expected to present yourself in a certain manner, and black belts should have a degree of decorum that sets an example for the rest of the students.
> 
> ...


 
then why are they appealing for information to identify them? If they are contactable surely everything would have been explained or a prosececution in progress by now? this is what's confusing me!


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## suicide (Sep 7, 2009)

what ever the case maybe ? he got caught up and unless this guy wants to press charges i dont see why people are trying to become his public defender after so many years it dont make sense ? this guy probably doesnt want no one to know who he is hes probably running his own dojo by now and it would effect his buisness ... if you got beat down would you want the world to know you got whooped on ? or would you just take it like a man and walk away with your head up - you live and you learn dude thats all i got to say ! :shooter:

everybody knows the instructors name and his black belt why doesnt anyone contact them and get there side of the story before all this conspiring against them ... :whip1:

i heard a similar story like this about ed parker how these 3 black dudes walked into to one of his schools clowning and mocking one of his instructors , ed parker in civilian clothes was like come in let see what you got dude made a move 
parker trapped on him and scooped kicked the guys balls and left em in fetul position on the mat :angel:


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 7, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> then why are they appealing for information to identify them? If they are contactable surely everything would have been explained or a prosececution in progress by now? this is what's confusing me!



I believe they are trying to identify the VICTIM.  They know perfectly well whom the aggressors were.

The reason this is important is because if the victim is not dead, the statute of limitations may well have run out on any crime that may have been committed.  Hence, nothing law enforcement could do about it.  If the victim did indeed die from his wounds or as a result of them, then perhaps (and only perhaps) a charge of murder could be lodged, which has no statute of limitations.  Under that situation, the sensei and his BB could be charged with crimes.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 7, 2009)

suicide said:


> i heard a similar story like this about ed parker how these 3 black dudes walked into to one of his schools clowning and mocking one of his instructors , ed parker in civilian clothes was like come in let see what you got dude made a move
> parker trapped on him and scooped kicked the guys balls and left em in fetul position on the mat :angel:


Ed Parker did not kill the man and dump his body to avoid being discovered, did he?

That's pretty much the difference.  People are shocked and want to know if the man lived or died.  If he lived, there is probably nothing that could be legally done to the sensei and his BB.  If he died, then it may be murder.

Is there something unclear about that?


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## suicide (Sep 7, 2009)

so the victim in this case died ?


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 7, 2009)

suicide said:


> so the victim in this case died ?



That's what they're trying to find out.  No one apparently knows, but some believe that given the severity of his apparent wounds, he may well have.  With no body, and no name of the victim, it's rather difficult to ascertain what if anything happened after the man was dragged out the back of the dojo.


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## Tez3 (Sep 7, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I believe they are trying to identify the VICTIM. They know perfectly well whom the aggressors were.
> 
> The reason this is important is because if the victim is not dead, the statute of limitations may well have run out on any crime that may have been committed. Hence, nothing law enforcement could do about it. If the victim did indeed die from his wounds or as a result of them, then perhaps (and only perhaps) a charge of murder could be lodged, which has no statute of limitations. Under that situation, the sensei and his BB could be charged with crimes.


 
Ah, sorted! thanks. 
 I think a slightly less sensationalist approach would have been better, a general appeal in the media would probably bring more information in than frantically posting on forums all round the world.
This OP isn't as lurid as some I've seen,it's reasonable but it's almost as if it's the 'excitement' of seeing someone battered is the point of posting with the excuse that someone is looking for information. Quite disturbing in many ways, it makes me a bit suspicious too when they post it up, decry whats going on, say it's being posted for people to inform but then give no information as who to contact ie police if you do know who it is. I don't think posting it up on U Tube is going to help.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 7, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Ah, sorted! thanks.
> I think a slightly less sensationalist approach would have been better, a general appeal in the media would probably bring more information in than frantically posting on forums all round the world.
> This OP isn't as lurid as some I've seen,it's reasonable but it's almost as if it's the 'excitement' of seeing someone battered is the point of posting with the excuse that someone is looking for information. Quite disturbing in many ways, it makes me a bit suspicious too when they post it up, decry whats going on, say it's being posted for people to inform but then give no information as who to contact ie police if you do know who it is. I don't think posting it up on U Tube is going to help.



it seems the initial posts did manage to help ID the sensei and BB in question, which were also mysteries at first; at least that's what I understand.

There were students in that class, and some of them might have told others of the day they saw this event.  If the man was mentally challenged, he might well have been known to merchants and residents in the area, who might recognize his face.  If the video and appeal is widely distributed, perhaps one of them might recollect and offer information that could help solve this 'cold case'.

It's kind of like an Amber Alert or 'Crimestoppers' to try to get someone who knew the man or knew of the event to step forward.


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## suicide (Sep 7, 2009)

the beating was even all that for him to have died ? dont know where the worries of his survival came about ... damn weaklings


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 7, 2009)

suicide said:


> the beating was even all that for him to have died ? dont know where the worries of his survival came about ... damn weaklings



OK, I think we're done here.  Good luck to you.


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## suicide (Sep 7, 2009)

no disrespect matt , just looks to me like a normal kenpo sparring match ...


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## Tez3 (Sep 7, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> it seems the initial posts did manage to help ID the sensei and BB in question, which were also mysteries at first; at least that's what I understand.
> 
> There were students in that class, and some of them might have told others of the day they saw this event. If the man was mentally challenged, he might well have been known to merchants and residents in the area, who might recognize his face. If the video and appeal is widely distributed, perhaps one of them might recollect and offer information that could help solve this 'cold case'.
> 
> It's kind of like an Amber Alert or 'Crimestoppers' to try to get someone who knew the man or knew of the event to step forward.


 
It's not the ones on the sites like MT as I know that wouldn't be acceptable, that got me thinking so much as one or too I've seen which were more or less, 'wow, fantastic, watch this guy getting beaten up oh and they're looking for whoever it was but we don't really care'. this is distasteful though I think that they may have believed it was television or a film and therefore not real. Not nice.

add on.. as I was saying, just like suicide's attitude, c'mon, thats just not nice at all.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 7, 2009)

Jonathan Randall said:


> It wasn't a "fist fight"; it was a pre-meditated assault of a possibly mentally challenged young man who made very clear that he didn't want to fight.
> 
> Time passed = Zero relevance.
> 
> ...



Now you're concluding things you could not POSSIBLE know......you don't even know who the guy is, thus the call for someone to tell you.......but you've concluded he was mentally challenged.  That's an awful lot of assumptions.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 7, 2009)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> I think he was referring in part to the instructor and the black belt student, whose names have been released and are probably contactable.
> 
> Styg, like you said, the difference in this video and any other fight is that they were wearing gi's, but it is that crucial fact that separates this assault from the other ones anywhere else. When you walk into the dojo, you are expected to present yourself in a certain manner, and black belts should have a degree of decorum that sets an example for the rest of the students.
> 
> ...


 Well, it's obvious that this school was a clown thug school........probably called themselves Cobra Kai Karate........but this happened in 1984, so half of those involved may be collecting social security by now.


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## jks9199 (Sep 7, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I honestly don't know how any 'experts' can declare anything of the sort.  What I saw in the video, while graphic, wasn't any more brutal than many after school fights i've witnessed at the local ball field while I was in high school.  I hardly saw any indication of a 'fatality'.  Bottom line, a few 'experts' are talking out of the wrong end.
> 
> As for 'justice'.........the crime likely amounted to felony assault at most, and given that it's been 25 years......i'm suspecting the statute of limitations has long since expired.


You could argue for malicious wounding or aggravated assault; both are felonies in Virginia.  We have no statute of limitations on most felonies.

But there's also an argument to be made that no crime occurred; it was a case of mutual, agreed combat.

I doubt the guy died; even in Dumfries, a body found in a dumpster would have been investigated.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 7, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> then why are they appealing for information to identify them? If they are contactable surely everything would have been explained or a prosececution in progress by now? this is what's confusing me!



I'd say the problem is that much of what people claim they know about the subject is mere assumption based on the video clip.  The story is heavy on supposition, light on real facts.


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## suicide (Sep 7, 2009)

how can someone say he was mentally challenged ? dude looks perfectly alrite to me ? he kicked the black belt down and defended himself and fought back - alot of people got ridiculous looks on there faces doesnt mean there mentally challenged :BSmeter:


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 7, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> You could argue for malicious wounding or aggravated assault; both are felonies in Virginia.  We have no statute of limitations on most felonies.
> 
> But there's also an argument to be made that no crime occurred; it was a case of mutual, agreed combat.
> 
> I doubt the guy died; even in Dumfries, a body found in a dumpster would have been investigated.


 
Bingo......and the sad fact of the matter is that the victim may have died long ago, for causes far removed from this assault.......meaning there is no victim to pursue charges.  25 years is a LONG time!


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## jks9199 (Sep 7, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Anyone know why this video should emerge all this time later? It's turned up all over the place even on a UK MMA site I go on with the poster, a newbie, asking if we recognise anyone! It just seems strange that it turns up now.
> The other thing that confuses me is that on one hand the OP is asking for anyone who recognises these people to come forward and then says  *" I don't believe any members here have been making harassing calls to any in these videos" *does that mean the people in the video are identified now?


According to the Washington Post article linked above, it's actually been floating around for a while.  It just got new life recently when it got posted on YouTube.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 7, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> According to the Washington Post article linked above, it's actually been floating around for a while.  It just got new life recently when it got posted on YouTube.


 
It's gone VIRAL!


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## suicide (Sep 7, 2009)

did anyone actually know the human punching bag ? and where did the mentally challenged come from if know even knows who this guy is ?


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## jks9199 (Sep 7, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> It's gone VIRAL!


I'm just glad it wasn't in my jurisdiction...

I'm the guy they throw dog cases like this to.

As you've said -- it's hard to say whether the kung fu guy is still alive today, for numerous reasons.  

So, let's examine this incident.  Let's take it in the worst light; he was mentally ill (would we accuse a preacher of being mentally ill if he said that Jesus Christ told him something? :shrug and was beaten severely including internal injuries.  We have to assume he didn't die then & there; the body would almost certainly have been found, and the case investigated.  So let's say he was badly hurt, knocked out, and woke up.  He climbs out of the dumpster, and goes on about his life.  And let's assume that the reports suggesting he may have been homeless are accurate, since one would think if he had family or friends, he'd have been taken to a hospital and this would have been dealt with then.

First possibility: he goes to the hospital.  Odds are good that a guy coming in with severe injuries related to a beating is going to be given an opportunity to talk with the cops.  So, there'd be a record.  It seems pretty clear that both PWPD and Dumfries PD have checked their records without success, from the coverage this has received.

Second possibility: he went off and died of injuries somewhere else.  I suppose it's possible that he died in the woods somewhere and the body was never found...  In which case we'll probably never know who he was or hear his side.

Third possibility: he recovered, over time.  Let's figure he was around 18 to 25 years old in 1984.  (I'm making some assumptions based on mental illness etiology and appearance here; he could easily be older.  I doubt he's younger.)  That puts him in his late forties or early fifties now.  If he's been living on the streets -- that's a long time.  He may well be dead from lots of different things...  Or he's not dead, has received treatment (again, assuming mental issues) or has otherwise moved beyond this and is frankly embarrassed about this incident, and would like to forget it and be left alone.  Or he's still homeless, living in the streets somewhere and simply isn't going to be recognized.  

Honestly, I suspect if he's still alive, whether or not he's homeless, he's still in the general area of Dumfries.  The fact that nobody is recognizing him or coming forward strongly suggests to me that they are choosing not to.


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## suicide (Sep 7, 2009)

homeless guy wearing a tie ?


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 7, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> I'm just glad it wasn't in my jurisdiction...
> 
> I'm the guy they throw dog cases like this to.
> 
> ...



Exactly!

And the FOURTH possibility is that he IS alive, but in some level of incarceration.  In which case nothing is going to come of this anyway.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 7, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Let's take it in the worst light; he was mentally ill (would we accuse a preacher of being mentally ill if he said that Jesus Christ told him something? :shrug



Many of us would, yes.  If I said Jesus Christ inspired me to learn karate, fine.  If I said He came down and personally taught me JC Kata, that has a bit of a crazy ring to it.

In the soundtrack, the sensei alludes repeatedly and with extreme sarcasm to the kata that the victim stated he had been taught by Jesus.  

One presumes he felt the man was off his rocker and chose to mock him for it.



> and was beaten severely including internal injuries.  We have to assume he didn't die then & there; the body would almost certainly have been found, and the case investigated.



I beg to differ.  Drunks fall into dumpsters all the time, get compacted, and (the ones we know about) are found by the drivers when they dump their loads.  One cannot speculate how many are NOT found by drivers when they dump their loads.  A man could easily be thrown into a dumpster, die there, and be buried with the trash and none the wiser.  In fact, I cannot believe it does NOT happen from time to time.



> So let's say he was badly hurt, knocked out, and woke up.  He climbs out of the dumpster, and goes on about his life.  And let's assume that the reports suggesting he may have been homeless are accurate, since one would think if he had family or friends, he'd have been taken to a hospital and this would have been dealt with then.



If that were the case, then I doubt much could be done about the situation now.  I think it's an assumption without much evidence to go on.  One sees the bleeding from the head, notes the victim is clearly unconscious, saw the repeated full-force head stomps with such power that the victim's head rebounded against the floor and the metal bars of the device he was trapped against, and saw him dragged, bleeding and moaning but not moving, out the back door.  I do not think one can assume he walked away battered and bruised but not seriously injured.



> First possibility: he goes to the hospital.  Odds are good that a guy coming in with severe injuries related to a beating is going to be given an opportunity to talk with the cops.  So, there'd be a record.  It seems pretty clear that both PWPD and Dumfries PD have checked their records without success, from the coverage this has received.



Knife and gunshot wounds get police reports.  Beatings, less so.



> Second possibility: he went off and died of injuries somewhere else.  I suppose it's possible that he died in the woods somewhere and the body was never found...  In which case we'll probably never know who he was or hear his side.



Hence, the call for his identity by anyone who knew him or knew of him.  Seems quite rational to call for that, to determine what might have happened.



> Third possibility: he recovered, over time.  Let's figure he was around 18 to 25 years old in 1984.  (I'm making some assumptions based on mental illness etiology and appearance here; he could easily be older.  I doubt he's younger.)  That puts him in his late forties or early fifties now.  If he's been living on the streets -- that's a long time.  He may well be dead from lots of different things...  Or he's not dead, has received treatment (again, assuming mental issues) or has otherwise moved beyond this and is frankly embarrassed about this incident, and would like to forget it and be left alone.  Or he's still homeless, living in the streets somewhere and simply isn't going to be recognized.



Someone knew him then.  If they knew him then, then we have his name and can do more investigation.



> Honestly, I suspect if he's still alive, whether or not he's homeless, he's still in the general area of Dumfries.  The fact that nobody is recognizing him or coming forward strongly suggests to me that they are choosing not to.



Not everyone is on teh interwebs, not everyone is a user of Youtube.  The more this information is disseminated, the better the chances that it will reach the guy who knew this man growing up, or was a next-door-neighbor to the dojo and recalls the incident, etc.


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## suicide (Sep 7, 2009)

if thats the case he was probably a crack head that was paid to have a demonstration demonstrated on him , these types of things happen to crack heads all the time %-}


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 7, 2009)

Case CLOSED!



> "We appreciate that the video was sent to us and that people saw it and were concerned," said Sgt. Kim Chinn, a Prince William police spokeswoman.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Sukerkin (Sep 7, 2009)

I'm not quite sure what has got people so 'excercised' about this thread.  

Do posters not recall that before the site crash we had two threads on this very issue?

If you have no interest in assisting the OP's intentions then surely simply not posting will suffice?


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## suicide (Sep 7, 2009)

people are acting like if he was rodney king´d - and deserves a 5million dollar settlement !


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 7, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Case CLOSED!



So it would appear.  Thanks for posting that.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 7, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> I'm not quite sure what has got people so 'excercised' about this thread.
> 
> Do posters not recall that before the site crash we had two threads on this very issue?
> 
> If you have no interest in assisting the OP's intentions then surely simply not posting will suffice?



I am assisting the OP......it's a closed case.  He didn't die, he was homeless 25 years ago, and is likely either dead or long since lost to the underground world that swallows homeless people up.

The good news is that the circulation of this story has turned Bobby Blythe in to the pariah he deserves to be.......but he isn't likely to face legal or civil penalties.


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## Sukerkin (Sep 7, 2009)

Not a problem, *Mac*, it was pure coincidence of posting times that meant what I said appeared immediately after your detective work :tup:.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 7, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I am assisting the OP......it's a closed case.  He didn't die, he was homeless 25 years ago, and is likely either dead or long since lost to the underground world that swallows homeless people up.
> 
> The good news is that the circulation of this story has turned Bobby Blythe in to the pariah he deserves to be.......but he isn't likely to face legal or civil penalties.



The only argument I'd have with your statements is your (now deleted) _"now we can all move on with our lives"_ part.

One presumes you meant that we should not have been concerned about this situation in the least.  I hope you deleted the comment because you realized that there is nothing wrong with being concerned.

And my life was not at a standstill whilst this video spread in popularity.  Believe it or not, I was moving on with my life, and continue to do so.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 7, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> The only argument I'd have with your statements is your (now deleted) _"now we can all move on with our lives"_ part.
> 
> One presumes you meant that we should not have been concerned about this situation in the least.  I hope you deleted the comment because you realized that there is nothing wrong with being concerned.
> 
> And my life was not at a standstill whilst this video spread in popularity.  Believe it or not, I was moving on with my life, and continue to do so.



I deleted it because I knew it would be misinterpreted.  The wild speculation made by so many in this viral story was that this guy died, that this was the video of some kind of murder.  That's obviously not the case.  That's the 'move on with our lives' part I meant.

At face value I concluded this wasn't some guy who subsequently died of his injuries......because of what was on the tape?  Nope!  Because Blythe posted it.  If this guy had died from his beating, there would have been no tape.  Blythe is a callous jerk, but not an idiot.  He wouldn't post a video of a murder, no matter how callous he is......self-preservation is an amazing thing.

Blythe knew that there was no likelihood of criminal charges because this guy lived, he saw him around after the fact, and the only thing he didn't figure was the outcry.



So what we are left with is a 25 year old assault.......


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Sep 7, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I deleted it because I knew it would be misinterpreted.  The wild speculation made by so many in this viral story was that this guy died, that this was the video of some kind of murder.  That's obviously not the case.  That's the 'move on with our lives' part I meant.



I guess I'm misinterpreting you, then.  I didn't speculate that the guy did, I said he could have, given the severity of the beating.  And if he had, then it would be entirely appropriate to conclude that charges could still be filed.

I disagree that it is _'obviously not the case'_ except now, in hindsight.  If it was _'obviously not the case'_ prior to this, I'd have no interest in it.



> At face value I concluded this wasn't some guy who subsequently died of his injuries......because of what was on the tape?  Nope!  Because Blythe posted it.  If this guy had died from his beating, there would have been no tape.  Blythe is a callous jerk, but not an idiot.  He wouldn't post a video of a murder, no matter how callous he is......self-preservation is an amazing thing.



I was unaware that Blythe had posted it himself.  That does indeed change things.  Again, I didn't know it, and I doubt many did.



> Blythe knew that there was no likelihood of criminal charges because this guy lived, he saw him around after the fact, and the only thing he didn't figure was the outcry.



And he's clearly got his fans on MT who think he simply gave some guy what he was begging for.



> So what we are left with is a 25 year old assault.......



In hindsight, yes.  Hard to see how you can suggest people should have not shown any interest BEFORE they knew that.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 7, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I guess I'm misinterpreting you, then.  I didn't speculate that the guy did, I said he could have, given the severity of the beating.  And if he had, then it would be entirely appropriate to conclude that charges could still be filed.
> 
> I disagree that it is _'obviously not the case'_ except now, in hindsight.  If it was _'obviously not the case'_ prior to this, I'd have no interest in it.


 It was obvious to me from the very beginning based on the fact that Blythe himself had posted it.





Bill Mattocks said:


> I was unaware that Blythe had posted it himself.  That does indeed change things.  Again, I didn't know it, and I doubt many did.


  That's because they ran with limited information and a whole lot of faulty conclusions.......which is made kind of silly by the fact that the information has been at their fingertips the entire time.  It took me 4 minutes of searching to find the whole story.






Bill Mattocks said:


> And he's clearly got his fans on MT who think he simply gave some guy what he was begging for.


 I'm not so sure you'll find many that believe that......Blythe is a colossal jerk.  You may find quite a few who aren't so worked up over the video of a 25 year old fight.  'What's with all the hysteria?' isn't the same as 'Blythe is my hero'.






Bill Mattocks said:


> In hindsight, yes.  Hard to see how you can suggest people should have not shown any interest BEFORE they knew that.


  Many folks allow the hysteria of emotion to drive their conclusions....sometimes we need to take a DEEP breath and think first.

This is the same mentality that causes people to forward all those annoying urban legends that I get forwarded all the time in my email box.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 7, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> It was obvious to me from the very beginning based on the fact that Blythe himself had posted it.



Blessed are the psychic.  I wasn't so clear, and I did not know, as I said, that Blythe had posted it himself.



> I'm not so sure you'll find many that believe that......Blythe is a colossal jerk.  You may find quite a few who aren't so worked up over the video of a 25 year old fight.



I guess you must have a certain someone on ignore, then.  This thread is peppered with his assertions that this was a good thing that deserved to happen.



> Many folks allow the hysteria of emotion to drive their conclusions....sometimes we need to take a DEEP breath and think first.



First, no hysteria from me that I'm aware of.  Did you note that?  Second, I didn't make an conclusions, I asked questions.



> This is the same mentality that causes people to forward all those annoying urban legends that I get forwarded all the time in my email box.



Well, I agree with that.  I also delete those silly things, and when they sometimes seem as though they MIGHT have a grain of truth to them, I check places like Snopes and factcheck.org before putting any faith in them.

Again, you seem to be saying that people should not have cared about this at all, by implying that anyone who cared what happened to the victim was 'hysterical' and 'jumped to conclusions'.  I did neither, and I don't see any reason that I should not have cared about it.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 7, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Blessed are the psychic.  I wasn't so clear, and I did not know, as I said, that Blythe had posted it himself.


 Well, again, it isn't really psychic........a thorough understanding of cause and effect coupled with a little research.





Bill Mattocks said:


> I guess you must have a certain someone on ignore, then.  This thread is peppered with his assertions that this was a good thing that deserved to happen.


 I was actually hoping some of those were sarcasm to be quite honest.





Bill Mattocks said:


> First, no hysteria from me that I'm aware of.  Did you note that?  Second, I didn't make an conclusions, I asked questions.


 Sure......but there's plenty of this floating around to account for the hysteria comments..... 
http://www.phillyd.tv/2009/08/21/instructor-bobby-joe-blythe-films-murder/





Bill Mattocks said:


> Well, I agree with that.  I also delete those silly things, and when they sometimes seem as though they MIGHT have a grain of truth to them, I check places like Snopes and factcheck.org before putting any faith in them.


 There's a common theme that runs through the urban legends, and it's detectable as BS even before confirming it.



Bill Mattocks said:


> Again, you seem to be saying that people should not have cared about this at all, by implying that anyone who cared what happened to the victim was 'hysterical' and 'jumped to conclusions'.  I did neither, and I don't see any reason that I should not have cared about it.


 Those who jumped to the conclusion that this guy was murdered were falling victim to hysteria.  Care all you want, if you it makes you feel any better.  Doesn't change a thing in this case.



I'll leave it at this......Bobby Joe Blythe is a jerk and a bully.......if there's any karma at work he'll break his hip walking to the mailbox to pick up his social security check.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 7, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I'll leave it at this......Bobby Joe Blythe is a jerk and a bully.......if there's any karma at work he'll break his hip walking to the mailbox.



From the research *I* did, he was seriously injured in a plane crash whilst crop-dusting some years ago.  I'm actually generally quite good at finding information, and always advocate doing one's due diligence before signing on to anything.  Which is why I suppose I find your responses interesting; they're not unlike my own.  It's just that in this case, I did not know Blythe had posted the video himself to begin with.  Failure on my part, perhaps, but it doesn't negate my logical responses since then.  _"Getting on with my life," _notwithstanding.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 7, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> From the research *I* did, he was seriously injured in a plane crash whilst crop-dusting some years ago.  I'm actually generally quite good at finding information, and always advocate doing one's due diligence before signing on to anything.  Which is why I suppose I find your responses interesting; they're not unlike my own.  It's just that in this case, I did not know Blythe had posted the video himself to begin with.  Failure on my part, perhaps, but it doesn't negate my logical responses since then.  _"Getting on with my life," _notwithstanding.



Fair enough.


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## Jonathan Randall (Sep 7, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> then why are they appealing for information to identify them? If they are contactable surely everything would have been explained or a prosececution in progress by now? this is what's confusing me!



Per the original post, we are trying to identify the VICTIM in order to ascertain whether or not he survived. Was it a murder, in other words.


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## Jonathan Randall (Sep 7, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Ah, sorted! thanks.
> I think a slightly less sensationalist approach would have been better, a general appeal in the media would probably bring more information in than frantically posting on forums all round the world.
> This OP isn't as lurid as some I've seen,it's reasonable but it's almost as if it's the 'excitement' of seeing someone battered is the point of posting with the excuse that someone is looking for information. Quite disturbing in many ways, it makes me a bit suspicious too when they post it up, decry whats going on, say it's being posted for people to inform but then give no information as who to contact ie police if you do know who it is. I don't think posting it up on U Tube is going to help.



Contact information was given in the original link. I was disgusted, not titillated by the video and my ONLY motive is - if we did see a murder - to have some sort of justice done.

The man had his head stomped full force into a metal object multiple times. There is good reason to believe that he may not have survived absent medical treatment. In fact, I first heard that from a news clip where a police officer spokesman said as much himself and later from a doctor and two emergency nurses (although in fairness, all said "may" and "appears" and not certain based only on the video). That is the source of my info and not any desire for sensationalism; although I would change the manner in which I originally expressed the post and say instead "it is not known whether the victim survived" rather than "not survivable absent immediate medical care". There I've admitted erring in my OP. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to locate this guy to find out whether or not he survived. Those uninterested don't need to post here. Personally, I don't watch what may be a snuff film and walk away uninterested in justice. I'm not even in the martial arts anymore and haven't posted on this site for years. I'm only here to spread the "have you seen this guy? Do you know who he is and if he is still alive? If so contact the folks in the links provided" message. Once done, I'm going back to painting and collecting watches and will leave the MA world that has so often disappointed and disgusted me (although I recognize some GREAT people and teachers are out there and this is not a slam on any MartialTalk members) behind again.

The general appeal to the media is being done and has been done. The appeals on MA boards are in the hope that someone may have trained with or around this person and can thus help ID him. That is all. 

I can't remember how to do the multiple post-quote thing, so sorry for so many posts to answer each question.


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## Archangel M (Sep 7, 2009)

Another sad example of "Martial Arts As:" self-identification, group-identity, power hierarchy, "way of life", "calling", et al.

IMO we would all be better of looking at MA as a "hobby", activity, sport, etc. Avoid all these BS trappings that lead to ego fueled crap like this.

Im a cop...thats my "calling" but even then,the well being of my family takes president and I would find another job if LE was destroying it.

Martial Arts are only skills that help me with my "calling"..its not a calling in and of itself. I think that people who get so wrapped in their martial arts identity do so for reasons far different than all the highfalutin mumbo jumbo they espouse.


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## Jonathan Randall (Sep 7, 2009)

I feel I'd better add that much more is known about the identity of those present in the room and their connections to each other as well as the environment (time and place) of that town 25 years ago than is presently being posted online. This info is not being posted out of very real concerns about illegal harassment of any individuals named who have a connection to this - innocent though many personal connections probably are - as well as fears of individuals obstructing (however well intentioned they may be) a police investigation. The other reason is that *this thread was created simply to help identify a crime victim. That is the only reason for the existence of this thread. Thank you.*




Bill Mattocks said:


> it seems the initial posts did manage to help ID the sensei and BB in question, which were also mysteries at first; at least that's what I understand.
> 
> There were students in that class, and some of them might have told others of the day they saw this event. If the man was mentally challenged, he might well have been known to merchants and residents in the area, who might recognize his face. If the video and appeal is widely distributed, perhaps one of them might recollect and offer information that could help solve this 'cold case'.
> 
> It's kind of like an Amber Alert or 'Crimestoppers' to try to get someone who knew the man or knew of the event to step forward.



Exactly; and those uninterested in doing this should not be so concerned with what those who are interested are doing.

Forgot to say elsewhere. Yes, many folks in the ministry believe that God "called them" to their task and even that God "ordained" them. Nothing wrong with believing that and who am I to say they are wrong? However; were they to say that Jesus personally awarded them a Ph.D. in Theology with honours last year, the equation changes and their mental capacity and/or lucidity might be called into question. This victim directly stated that Jesus had awarded him a red belt 10th degree. That is one of the things that makes this event so terrible - they picked on and targeted someone who may have had a diminished mental capacity. Note the use of the word MAY have. That is what is being said and not that he WAS/IS mentally disabled.


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## suicide (Sep 7, 2009)

this might even be a some sort of promotional video for his dojo that went wrong :jediduel:


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## Tez3 (Sep 8, 2009)

Just a quick question that I thought about while reading this, not to do with this directly though!

The police spokesman said no charges were made as the injured chap didn't want to make a complaint, does American law allow charges to be brought without the victim complaining? Not necessarily in this case but after an assault can the police arrest and charge the person who attacked the victim if they have enough proof even if the victim doesn't want them to?

I could point out btw this is the third time that video had been posted up on MT in the past couple of weeks though the only one that has turned a bit contentious.


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## arnisador (Sep 8, 2009)

Yes, the prosecutor can press the case without a complaining victim--it happens all the time in domestic assault cases--but of course if the victim is uncooperative it makes it harder to win.


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## suicide (Sep 8, 2009)

this is starting sound like a personal vendetta against the instructor ?


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## jks9199 (Sep 8, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Just a quick question that I thought about while reading this, not to do with this directly though!
> 
> The police spokesman said no charges were made as the injured chap didn't want to make a complaint, does American law allow charges to be brought without the victim complaining? Not necessarily in this case but after an assault can the police arrest and charge the person who attacked the victim if they have enough proof even if the victim doesn't want them to?
> 
> I could point out btw this is the third time that video had been posted up on MT in the past couple of weeks though the only one that has turned a bit contentious.


Tez,

First -- a caveat.  Each state -- and sometimes, each court within the state -- is different.  So what I say may not be accurate outside of Virginia.  

As a general rule, "no complainant, no charges" is pretty accurate in the US.  A few exceptions, like domestic assault or homicide, do exist.  Basically, while a cop can make charges for any offense that they can support with probable cause, it's not worth it if you have an uncooperative victim who likely won't show up at court or testify against the accused.  Nobody wants to take charges forward and have them fall apart in court...


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## suicide (Sep 8, 2009)

Jonathan Randall said:


> I feel I'd better add that much more is known about the identity of those present in the room and their connections to each other as well as the environment (time and place) of that town 25 years ago than is presently being posted online. This info is not being posted out of very real concerns about illegal harassment of any individuals named who have a connection to this - innocent though many personal connections probably are - as well as fears of individuals obstructing (however well intentioned they may be) a police investigation. The other reason is that *this thread was created simply to help identify a crime victim. That is the only reason for the existence of this thread. Thank you.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

25 years have passed already just leave it alone , dont you think he knows by now that he did another human being wrong ? if the man gots a conscious like we all do then justice has been served ! what do you want , to see him behind bars ? dont you think he gots a family and people that love him & need him to be around ... take off your superhero cape for a second and have some human sympathy for him :angel: ' how do you think he feels about this video going around ? he must be so ashamed of himself and of what he did and most of all knowing that all the people that look up to him are like DAMN ? hes probably a better person in this day and age because of it. when somebody else is angry and starts to curse us , it is very easy for us to feel that we are hurt by them. but we can try to find out what is the cause of there suffering , their anger. the longer you keep the pain in yourself , the worse it will become. you stay angry , angry and angry thats the way you are hurting yourself and its foolish to hurt ones own heart or ones mind. :uhyeah: you can find friends everywhere but you cannot enemys anywhere unless you make them.:jediduel:


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## shesulsa (Sep 8, 2009)

Apathy is the anvil upon which evil is honed.

If the man died from his injuries, he can't complain ... but that doesn't mean that people can't be brought up on charges.  AND ... assault is assault.  Some states require a complaining party, others do not. If this video is real, it is evidence of a heinous crime and if it is punishable by law in that state then it should be so.

While there are some things not worth involving oneself in, this might be one of those cases that is.


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## Carol (Sep 8, 2009)

suicide said:


> how do you think he feels about this video going around ?



He was pretty damn proud of it for awhile considering this whole outflow is from Bobby Joe Blythe posting it to his own YouTube site and bragging about it.  If he had never put it on the internet, no one would have known.


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## shesulsa (Sep 8, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> He was pretty damn proud of it for awhile considering this whole outflow is from Bobby Joe Blythe posting it to his own YouTube site and bragging about it.  If he had never put it on the internet, no one would have known.



Indeed - this video only recently surfaced, neh?  Apparently he's not half the man he once was ... why is he hiding if he felt so justified or he has atoned? Can he not face the music as he forced upon this young man so long ago?

Indeed, suicide, your statement holds little water with me.


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## Tez3 (Sep 8, 2009)

suicide said:


> 25 years have passed already just leave it alone , dont you think he knows by now that he did another human being wrong ? if the man gots a conscious like we all do then justice has been served ! what do you want , to see him behind bars ? dont you think he gots a family and people that love him & need him to be around ... take off your superhero cape for a second and have some human sympathy for him :angel: ' how do you think he feels about this video going around ? he must be so ashamed of himself and of what he did and most of all knowing that all the people that look up to him are like DAMN ? hes probably a better person in this day and age because of it. when somebody else is angry and starts to curse us , it is very easy for us to feel that we are hurt by them. but we can try to find out what is the cause of there suffering , their anger. the longer you keep the pain in yourself , the worse it will become. you stay angry , angry and angry thats the way you are hurting yourself and its foolish to hurt ones own heart or ones mind. :uhyeah: you can find friends everywhere but you cannot enemys anywhere unless you make them.:jediduel:


 


I wouldn't assume that someone was sorry for what they'd done. Look at the Nazis, you think they were ever sorry and look at the films going around about what they did! They also have a lot of followers these days. Not knowing the instructor concerned I wouldn't make any assumptions about him whatsoever. as for enemies, I have many who just hate me because of my race and religion, they don't even know me. Goes for a lot of people too so your saying is a little trite though it may be wishful thinking.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 8, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Just a quick question that I thought about while reading this, not to do with this directly though!
> 
> The police spokesman said no charges were made as the injured chap didn't want to make a complaint, does American law allow charges to be brought without the victim complaining? Not necessarily in this case but after an assault can the police arrest and charge the person who attacked the victim if they have enough proof even if the victim doesn't want them to?
> 
> I could point out btw this is the third time that video had been posted up on MT in the past couple of weeks though the only one that has turned a bit contentious.




Generally, except in special circumstances, a victim is required......can't charge someone for stealing, if the victim says it wasn't stolen.  Likewise if the victim of an assault says they aren't interested in pursuing charges.  The exceptions are the statutorily spelled out exceptions, such as Domestic Assault.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 8, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Yes, the prosecutor can press the case without a complaining victim--it happens all the time in domestic assault cases--but of course if the victim is uncooperative it makes it harder to win.



If the victim is 25 years missing it's impossible.

Moreover, Domestic Violence cases are a special case, as most states have passed laws SPECIFYING arrest and prosecution, even against the will of the victim.  Murder is another special case, where the victim lacks the capacity to pursue charges.  But most other crimes require an aggrieved party who asserts their victim status.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 8, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> Apathy is the anvil upon which evil is honed.
> 
> If the man died from his injuries, he can't complain ... but that doesn't mean that people can't be brought up on charges.  AND ... assault is assault.  Some states require a complaining party, others do not. If this video is real, it is evidence of a heinous crime and if it is punishable by law in that state then it should be so.
> 
> While there are some things not worth involving oneself in, this might be one of those cases that is.



We've already established he didn't die.  In fact, we've established police already contacted him after the fact, and he refused to press charges.  We've also established he was a homeless man 25 years ago, and has likely been long since lost to posterity.

In essence, the odds are better of solving the Black Dahlia murder than finding this guy, or ever even figuring out who he was.

Seriously........figuring out the identity of many homeless folks you can find right now under the over-pass is hard........finding the identity of a homeless guy who was in town 25 years ago is an exercise in futility.


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## suicide (Sep 8, 2009)

like i said earlier : so one is putting way to much on it ! ( someone some where is saying : no ____ sherlock ) maybe we should blame this on the illuminati :soapbox:

difficult to conquer is oneself : but when that is conquered , everything is conquered -


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## Tez3 (Sep 8, 2009)

suicide said:


> like i said earlier : so one is putting way to much on it ! ( someone some where is saying : no ____ sherlock ) maybe we should blame this on the illuminati :soapbox:
> 
> difficult to conquer is oneself : but when that is conquered , everything is conquered -


 

If that was meant to be deep, it was..... so much so it disappeared in the swamp.


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## suicide (Sep 9, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> If that was meant to be deep, it was..... so much so it disappeared in the swamp.


 

why ? is that were you dwell :shock: dont get mad at me i aint the one that beat some one up ( homeless crazy bum ) in my dojo 25 years ago ... another 9/11 conspiracy in the works : the guy was whooped on so that congress could past tuffer laws against MA and owners of dojos , tez dont start with me again PEACE LOVE UNITY AND RESPECT ! even for crazy bums :ultracool


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## Carol (Sep 9, 2009)

Apparantly one of the members of the PWC PD didn't get the memo that this was supposed to be swept under the rug in hopes the nice people on the internet forget it ever happened.

http://www2.insidenova.com/isn/news/crime/article/police_launch_investigation_into_1984_beating_video/42943/%20Inside%20Nova


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## shesulsa (Sep 9, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Apparantly one of the members of the PWC PD didn't get the memo that this was supposed to be swept under the rug in hopes the nice people on the internet forget it ever happened.
> 
> http://www2.insidenova.com/isn/news/crime/article/police_launch_investigation_into_1984_beating_video/42943/%20Inside%20Nova



Ma'am, if I may ...

Some highlights from that article pertinent to this discussion:



> Police originally said that wasn&#8217;t the case. Now they aren&#8217;t so sure, Prince William police Maj. Ray Colgan said.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Just to point out how the online community can be a productive, healthy thing, the story of Andrew Rendo is emerging as I type.  Andrew Rendo is the brother of an assistant to a very popular online mommy blogger by the name of Heather Armstrong (dooce.com)  When her assistant's family became aware he was missing, she put the word out via Twitter.com and kept her fanbase updated.

The Phoenix PD was not going to assign a detective to Rendo's case for a week after he was reported missing - more than long enough for anyone wandering the desert to die twice.  Heather's Twitter fanbase flooded PPD with phone calls and emails requesting they assign a detective immediately; a day later, a detective was assigned and a search and rescue was organized.

Rendo's car had been found wrecked (airbag deployed) and deserted.  He is mentally ill and off his medication.  

I just got the tweet that he has been located and release of details is pending family notification.

Armstrong also tweeted an alert of a missing child who was found shortly as well due to the broad reach of Twitter.

The internet is a source for a lot of garbage, pointless banter, time-sucking role-play games (blush), penis-waving and porn.  Using it for the other productive means it affords - most especially to aid in crime prevention, missing persons location, justice, etcetera makes a lot of sense.

Let's all hope this case is resolved fairly quickly.

P.S. - Those interested in Rendo's story - Andrew Rendo was found alive. Link1, Link2.


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## ATC (Sep 9, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> We've already established he didn't die. In fact, we've established police already contacted him after the fact, and he refused to press charges. We've also established he was a homeless man 25 years ago, and has likely been long since lost to posterity.


Your facts may not be as factual as you think.
http://www2.insidenova.com/isn/news...on_into_1984_beating_video/42943/ Inside Nova

I suggest you read the artical at the above link.


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## Tez3 (Sep 9, 2009)

suicide said:


> why ? is that were you dwell :shock: dont get mad at me i aint the one that beat some one up ( homeless crazy bum ) in my dojo 25 years ago ... another 9/11 conspiracy in the works : the guy was whooped on so that congress could past tuffer laws against MA and owners of dojos , tez dont start with me again PEACE LOVE UNITY AND RESPECT ! even for crazy bums :ultracool


 
Nothing wrong with swamps lol1 But I live on the side of a hill.

All i meant was your comment went right over the top of my head and I didn't understand it. I expect some others didn't understand it either but I'm the only one daft enough to say so lol!


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## suicide (Sep 9, 2009)

its all to the good love %-}


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 11, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Apparantly one of the members of the PWC PD didn't get the memo that this was supposed to be swept under the rug in hopes the nice people on the internet forget it ever happened.
> 
> http://www2.insidenova.com/isn/news/crime/article/police_launch_investigation_into_1984_beating_video/42943/%20Inside%20Nova



So.......an entire article based solely on more dubious speculation about the video clip, without anything substantial to add........



> &#8220;It is evident from the tape that the guy has some type of karate or judo experience,&#8221; said Prince William police Detective Paul J. Masterson. &#8220;He holds his own pretty well for at least a few minutes. He may have gotten that from the military. He may have been stationed at Quantico.&#8221;
> 
> 
> Many who have posted to the Internet about the assault believe the victim was left for dead in a Dumpster behind the dojo. Prince William police Detective T.R. Troutner said he believes the man could still be alive today.




So now we've gone from the unsupported speculation that his body was dumped, to the unsupported speculation that this guy had his Jesus martial arts training at QUANTICO?  



Come on folks.........a little hint about Paul Masterson's martial arts expertise is his assertion that this guy demonstrated on 'Judo' skills. 


When folks say things like that......even with they have 'Det.' before their names.........they are talking out of their backside.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 11, 2009)

ATC said:


> Your facts may not be as factual as you think.
> http://www2.insidenova.com/isn/news/crime/article/police_launch_investigation_into_1984_beating_video/42943/%20Inside%20Nova
> 
> I suggest you read the artical at the above link.



I did so.......and found nothing more that some asinine speculations made ABOUT the video, that are not supported by it, and add nothing substantial to it........JUDO TRAINING AND QUANTICO?!  Really?

Quote ONE SINGLE additional fact presented in that article....PERIOD......much less anything that refutes any statement i've already made.

Let me tell what you actually read.......the Detective bureau has been inundated with MULTIPLE calls and demands that they 'do something'.......what they are giving you is speculation to make it sound as if they are doing something........but the reality is that 25 year old assaults committed on unidentified homeless people are not likely to be solvable..........this isn't CSIeluth or Law and Order:SUV........finding this guys identity 25 years ago would have been tough.......going back 25 years and trying to figure out WHO this guy was, who is probably dead or long since lost to the system, is kind of silly tough.......



Take a DEEP BREATH folks........look past the emotional speculation......and examine the FACTS.......the really provable facts.........not the innuendo, not the wild supposition........the FACTS........we know that 25 years ago these clowns brought this guy in, and assaulted him.........that is ALL YOU KNOW!  We ALSO know that an officer said he talked with the guy week after the incident and that he was alive.......nothing ANYONE has said has refuted that in any way shape or form.........except for those who still cling to their wild 'He must have died and been dumped' speculation, that is not SUPPORTED by one single shred of evidence.  

So in order to believe that, we've not only got the dojo clowns killing homeless people, but the police are IN ON IT!  Seriously?  Really?  That's the story we're going with now?


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## jks9199 (Sep 11, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> So.......an entire article based solely on more dubious speculation about the video clip, without anything substantial to add........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At this point, this video has received enough attention that PWPD is pretty much forced to do something with it...  for PR if no other reason.  It's a dog of a case, but they'll "look into it."  

They may ID the guy but I won't be at all surprised if they don't.  We're talking 25 years, and the DC metro area (which includes Dumfries) has a whole lot of people moving around.  Many of the people most likely to be able to ID the guy may not have regular internet access -- and likely won't see the video unless they're really compelled to look for it or it's thrown in their face.

I think odds are decent that the guy didn't die from this beating.  Whether or not he's still alive is a different question... as we've discussed.  And his martial arts background?  Who knows?!  From what little you see, it might be the Saturday Morning Martial Arts Movie Dojo-Kwoon... or he may have had some training somewhere.


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## shesulsa (Sep 11, 2009)

The "Quantico" add was interesting and seemed like bait.

We'll see what happens, I guess.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 11, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> The "Quantico" add was interesting and seemed like bait.
> 
> We'll see what happens, I guess.



The Quantico seemed more like a Detective without any sort of martial arts experience whatsoever.......which is not uncommon for Detectives.  The 'Judo' was a dead giveaway........sounds like he doesn't even know what Judo is, much less knows it when he sees it.  There was nothing in the video that would remotely indicate 'Judo' expertise.......no Harai Goshi or Osoto Gari in the entire video......sounds like he may have seen a 'Judo chop' thrown in. 

Just some overworked Detectives trying to give a soundbite that makes it appear as if they are remotely interested in this case........when they are more concerned with the crack house shooting from last Thursday.


I need to reiterate the fact that I don't take exception with people being disturbed by this video, and wanting to see some kind of justice done.......my only issue is that folks are jumping to some flawed conclusions and building some pretty unreasonable expectations.

Here's reality..........a man who was homeless and mentally ill 25 years ago, doesn't suddenly since become an investment banker........the life expectancy of someone living under the local over-pass isn't that long.  Being dead, in prison or permanently committed is likely to have occurred long ago.......at any rate, he's not likely to look the same, and I doubt he'll be cruising the internet, see this video and go 'That's me!'.

As for the righteous rage at what these clowns were doing, it's justified........some of the wild speculation, not so much.


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## ATC (Sep 11, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> We've already established he didn't die.


No we did not.



sgtmac_46 said:


> In fact, we've established police already contacted him after the fact, and he refused to press charges.


No this is not a fact.



sgtmac_46 said:


> We've also established he was a homeless man 25 years ago, and has likely been long since lost to posterity.


Maybe you established this in your mind but this is just spectulation at this point.



sgtmac_46 said:


> We ALSO know that an officer said he talked with the guy week after the incident and that he was alive.


No *WE* don't know this. You seem to take one article and make it fact while totally dismissing another article that was written after the first article. I would hate to have you as my lawyer, judge, jury or anything for that matter. You spout off about facts and nothing is factual. You call all your beliefs facts and your disbeliefs assumptions, when the fact is everything at this point are assumptions, even your statements.


You just saying something is fact does not make it so. Again *"READ"* the article at the link below. Your facts seem to have been mostly conjecture. We have two countering articles make everything we know conjecture. EVERYTHING!!! This is why they have investigations and you can't just dissmiss what you don't believe. If everyone thought like you nothing would get solved. That is why they have a cold case divison, for solving old cases where the facts are not clear.

http://www2.insidenova.com/isn/news/...0Inside%20Nova

.


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## Archangel M (Sep 11, 2009)

Trust us..as LEO's, while we may not know the facts in this case, we do have a good grasp on how situations like this "work" within the media/court/LE investigative realms. Sgt Mac is making valid points. The ability to even identify this person is a reach, let alone locating him or tracking down if he is alive. Proving even recent cases without a body are difficult. Even if he is dead, the ability to link his death to this particular event are slim...especially if the person was homeless to begin with.

None of us are saying that this case is "not so bad" or that it doesn't bear looking into. I would just say don't expect much to happen.


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## shesulsa (Sep 11, 2009)

UPDATE:



> And recently, another person has come forward to say he too was invited to the dojo to display his fighting style and wound up in the hospital. He told police he thinks there were other victims, and they believe him.
> 
> "Right now, we believe there are other victims out there that were brought in from the street into this dojo and assaulted. We're looking for the public to come forward with that," says Detective Masterson.  It was easy for police to track down Blythe. In the 80's, he was featured by the Today Show for training women to be body guards. He now lives in California. Prince William County Police say they'd like to find the victim in the video before filing any charges against Blythe or the black belt who carries out the assault. They think they know who the black belt is but are not positive yet.



Quite frankly, if I had had my *** kicked in a dojo owned by a former marine who had connections with local law enforcement and who worked security ... I might not want to show my face either. Successful prosecution in this scenario would seem slanted to fail.

:asian:


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## shesulsa (Sep 11, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> The Quantico seemed more like a Detective without any sort of martial arts experience whatsoever.......which is not uncommon for Detectives.  The 'Judo' was a dead giveaway........sounds like he doesn't even know what Judo is, much less knows it when he sees it.  There was nothing in the video that would remotely indicate 'Judo' expertise.......no Harai Goshi or Osoto Gari in the entire video......sounds like he may have seen a 'Judo chop' thrown in.
> 
> Just some overworked Detectives trying to give a soundbite that makes it appear as if they are remotely interested in this case........when they are more concerned with the crack house shooting from last Thursday.
> 
> ...



Well ... maybe we're reading different articles or something, because it seems that the police ... educated in martial arts or not ... know where Blythe is and have another victim who has stepped forward but are waiting to file charges, probably to see if they can tack this media-grabbing story on.  Not sure why they want to wait, they have enough to charge him with the video evidence and it sounds like with the second victim's statement.  They clearly want to identify the attacker in the video posted.

Is the guy dead? We don't know - the "someone saw him and he was limping" line carries about as much weight as the Quantico line. Could it be proven that the beating caused his death if he is dead? We don't know that. Who saw him alive? The police? If so, why weren't charges brought up then? Could it be Blythe's connections with law enforcement? Was the victim written off because of his mental/residential status?  I think the people who do have the answers to those questions probably aren't on this board (with all due respect).

I think there are too many answered AND unanswered questions here for anyone to speculate they know what's going to happen.


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## elder999 (Sep 11, 2009)

And I just have to add that it all seems very _"60's or 70's_" to me.

At least, it was very much that way in New York, back then.Show up in a strange dojo claiming rank, and it didn't matter who you said your teacher was: Duk Sung Son, Shigeru Oyama, Muhammad, Jesus Christ, etc.-if there wasn't already some sort of "arrangement,"-like I had with master Son and Oyama shihan- or friendship, you were going to have to fight, and you were going to have to fight. You might not get your assed kicked, but you were going to be put through it. I visited a friend's goju dojo when I was 17, and I fought _everybody _that was  there, and they knew I was coming, so that pretty much meant I sparred with *everybody* . I sparred the sensei and his senior student twice. I didn't get my *** kicked, or my head stomped, and it stayed pretty friendly, but I had a fierce evening, bruised ribs,  and was sore for two weeks. As for what's in the video, I heard of things like that happening a lot at the time, but the times were different-doesn't make it any less stupid......


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## Carol (Sep 11, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Trust us..as LEO's, while we may not know the facts in this case, we do have a good grasp on how situations like this "work" within the media/court/LE investigative realms. Sgt Mac is making valid points. The ability to even identify this person is a reach, let alone locating him or tracking down if he is alive. Proving even recent cases without a body are difficult. Even if he is dead, the ability to link his death to this particular event are slim...especially if the person was homeless to begin with.
> 
> None of us are saying that this case is "not so bad" or that it doesn't bear looking into. I would just say don't expect much to happen.



Well....actually it appears that Sarge is saying exactly that.  



sgtmac_46 said:


> Case CLOSED!



I don't disagree with the points Sarge is making, or with his opinions.

But the higher the visibility of an issue, the greater the need for carefully managing expectations, yes?  That seems to be a rule that applies whether one is in LE or whether one just rustles up unruly electrons for a living.   :lol:

I think the _Post _article came across as being a bit too dismissive for the circumstances.  I'm not slamming anyone for that, the article read as if it was written by an inexperienced journalist, and some LE agencies are better than others at talking to the press.  But neither situation negates the need for managing perceptions and expectations as best as one can.


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## Archangel M (Sep 11, 2009)

People also have to remember that LE in the 80's compared to LE now is far different than the 20-something years between would seem to imply. The expectations/training/culture of the police were as different between then and now as the differences in technology are. 

Unless there were reports filed on paper and stored somewhere it is going to be tough to garner data to follow up on. These days of laptops in patrol cars, digital recording of dispatch calls, internet databases and what else, make tracking down leads much easier as long as you have data entered on them. 

First and foremost would be identifying the victim in this case. My initial thoughts on an investigation would be to look for any DB's that came into the ME's office around that date. I'd look for reports that may have been filed...reports linked to the school...look for the current location of the instructors/students and interview them. If they tell me to go screw myself, I don't know how much leverage I would have on them in this old of a case. I'm betting that there have been a number of people claiming or thinking they know who the victim was...Id have to follow-up on them. 

Beyond that?


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## shesulsa (Sep 12, 2009)

All good points.  It will be interesting to see where this goes from several standpoints, I think.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 12, 2009)

ATC said:


> No we did not.
> 
> No this is not a fact.
> 
> ...


 Witness statement trumps wild supposition.  One officer says he talked to the guy AFTER THE FACT.......your article did not present one single FACT to dispute that....not one single shred.  I challenged to QUOTE one single FACT presented in the article, and your response is 'Read it' again.......which is, as we say, a 'punt'.

Bottom line, you've convinced yourself of a version of the events that departs from reality, and you have ZERO proof to support it.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 12, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Trust us..as LEO's, while we may not know the facts in this case, we do have a good grasp on how situations like this "work" within the media/court/LE investigative realms. Sgt Mac is making valid points. The ability to even identify this person is a reach, let alone locating him or tracking down if he is alive. Proving even recent cases without a body are difficult. Even if he is dead, the ability to link his death to this particular event are slim...especially if the person was homeless to begin with.
> 
> None of us are saying that this case is "not so bad" or that it doesn't bear looking into. I would just say don't expect much to happen.



Exactly!  The issue is the belief and demand that law enforcement do something about a 25 year old cold case of an assault........and that's a pretty unreasonable demand, given the nature of cases like this.

Moreover, we already have a retired detective stating he talked to this guy after the fact 25 years ago, and he refused to prosecute then........now we have a couple conclusions to come to with that.....

1) The officer is telling the truth, the guy lived, and didn't seem interested in prosecuting 25 years ago (and is probably not locatable).

2) The officer is part of a HUGE conspiracy to hide the truth, 25 years after the fact, because he is SO loyal to Bobby Joe Blythe, who probably hasn't lived in that area in 20 years, that he's willing to put his retirement and reputation on the line to run interference for him.......REALLY FOLKS?  SERIOUSLY?


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 12, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> Well ... maybe we're reading different articles or something, because it seems that the police ... educated in martial arts or not ... know where Blythe is and have another victim who has stepped forward but are waiting to file charges, probably to see if they can tack this media-grabbing story on.  Not sure why they want to wait, they have enough to charge him with the video evidence and it sounds like with the second victim's statement.  They clearly want to identify the attacker in the video posted.


 Video evidence of an unidentified person who was assaulted 25 years ago, and refused to press charges.......not as open and shut a case as you might think.



shesulsa said:


> Is the guy dead? We don't know - the "someone saw him and he was limping" line carries about as much weight as the Quantico line. Could it be proven that the beating caused his death if he is dead? We don't know that. Who saw him alive? The police? If so, why weren't charges brought up then? Could it be Blythe's connections with law enforcement? Was the victim written off because of his mental/residential status?  I think the people who do have the answers to those questions probably aren't on this board (with all due respect).


 With all due respect, 'Someone' didn't just 'see' him limping.....A retired Detective saw him LIMPING more than a week AFTER the assault, and TALKED to him.......EYEWITNESS statements carry VASTLY more weight than some other current detective talking out of his nether regions about being 'trained in judo at Quantico' based solely on watching the same tape you and I did....

...and HERE we go with the conspiracy theories.......because at the end of the day, one has to fall back on a vast police conspiracy to protect Bobby Joe years after the fact in order to still cling to 'He might have died and had his body dumped' story.......because the belief in a vast conspiracy is what is required to discount the retired detectives statement.




shesulsa said:


> I think there are too many answered AND unanswered questions here for anyone to speculate they know what's going to happen.


 We've got a few answers, but some folks don't like them because they don't fit the theories they've built up surrounding the video.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 12, 2009)

Unless some new evidence turns up, i'm going to leave it at that, because what we have now tentatively speaks for itself, until further evidence becomes available. 

At any rate, spirited discussion.......but I just don't see it going any further than it has.  Now, if the guy who also claims to have been assaulted wants to pursue charges, then these guys might get an assault charge conviction.  Problem is, how severely was he assaulted.  If all he got was a black eye and a busted lip, that's just misdemeanor assault......and has a statute of limitations.

Further, even in dealing with the subject in the video, even though his injuries look bad, being knocked unconscious and bleeding cannot necessarily be proven to be 'serious physical injury'.......especially if the victim never went to a doctor.  So without knowing the degree of actual injury (which is VERY difficult to determine simply by watching a video tape) you then have the complicated task of determining the degree of injury from the statement of the victim (good luck!) and then the subjective testimony of expert witnesses, attempting to derive degree of injury simply by watching the video.

At the end of the day, the folks who think this is an easy, slam dunker of a case........have NEVER gotten closer to putting a case together than watching CSI or Law and Order.


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## jks9199 (Sep 12, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here's the problem with those "other victims."

Were they really a victim, or did they enter into a sporting match and lose?  I'm sure that Blythe's argument would be that they came into his dojo willingly, to "demonstrate their fighting prowess" or somesuch and lost.  Prove it's different...

A beating that would easily be qualified as an aggravated malicious wounding under Virginia law is perfectly legal within the confines of a boxing ring...


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## jks9199 (Sep 12, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> First and foremost would be identifying the victim in this case. My initial thoughts on an investigation would be to look for any DB's that came into the ME's office around that date. I'd look for reports that may have been filed...reports linked to the school...look for the current location of the instructors/students and interview them. If they tell me to go screw myself, I don't know how much leverage I would have on them in this old of a case. I'm betting that there have been a number of people claiming or thinking they know who the victim was...Id have to follow-up on them.
> 
> Beyond that?


 
From the one article, they seem to have checked for a dead body (unidentified or otherwise) that would be the guy's, with no luck.

Beyond that... regarding traveling to interview former students... Money's tight.  Resources are scarce.  And even a phone interview takes time, on both sides.  

It seems that they're trying to work what they can.  But there's just not a lot to work with...  And Dumfries PD is a whole 'nother question entirely.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 13, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Here's the problem with those "other victims."
> 
> Were they really a victim, or did they enter into a sporting match and lose?  I'm sure that Blythe's argument would be that they came into his dojo willingly, to "demonstrate their fighting prowess" or somesuch and lost.  Prove it's different...
> 
> A beating that would easily be qualified as an aggravated malicious wounding under Virginia law is perfectly legal within the confines of a boxing ring...



And that would be if it happened last week........without even adding the complexity of 25 years after the fact.

And furthermore, misdemeanor assault DOES have a statute of limitations, so unless there was provable SERIOUS injury on their behalf, provable by MEDICAL RECORDS after the event, that statute of limitations for simple assault and battery is up.

A lot of folks have the idea 'I see the video, so it's an open and shut case'.........not so!  Not even close, actually.  The State STILL has the burden of proving, beyond a reasonable doubt, that a crime has been committed AND that the crime in question was a FELONY of which there is no statute of limitation in Virginia, which requires proof of 'SERIOUS' physical injury, as defined by statute, as distinct from mere physical injury, which would constitute simple assault and battery, and thus misdemeanor assault.



Now the shear flood of public sentiment MAY prompt local prosecutors to charge Bobby Joe Blythe with something.......but watch closely what happens after that.  Like the resent case in Arnold, Mo., where the gal was harassing the 13 year old neighbor girl that subsequently committed suicide, the federal government attempted a prosecution based on popular sentiment.......but once in the court they STILL have to fit the statutory requirements of the law.......and a judge subsequently decided that the case was STRETCHING the definition of the statutes being cited beyond the realm of their intent and purpose.  

On Law and Order the the DA may get away with creative prosecution based on clever interpretations of the law.......but in the REAL world judges tend to frown on that.


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## shesulsa (Sep 13, 2009)

So my question, then, for Sarge and JKS would be this: if they DO charge Blythe with assault based on the video evidence and any testimony from the "other victim" would that be a miscarriage of justice? Would convicting him be?

Please understand - my fascination here is that conclusions are just *so* often jumped to by everyone. I like to play devil's advocate because I think we challenge ourselves to examine what's before us and in conversing we learn from each other ... hopefully. 

The press is putting forth the notion that the PD is actively pursuing this case.  Might that not be the truth in the interest of appeasing the local and internet communities?  Why would they publish inaccurate and seemingly ignorant statements about one man's training - is that indicative of individual ignorance or was it bait (wanting to draw the victim out)?

Is this all just a song and dance being sold to soothe people's feathers?  Why not, instead, be honest and say, 'we can't do anything here?' Fear of retribution?

Please enlighten. Thanks.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 13, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> So my question, then, for Sarge and JKS would be this: if they DO charge Blythe with assault based on the video evidence and any testimony from the "other victim" would that be a miscarriage of justice? Would convicting him be?


 They won't be able to charge him for assault on the victim in the video without the victim in the video.  It is also highly unlikely that they will be able to introduce the video AS evidence in the other assault, as it is not evidence of that assault.  The prosecutor will attempt to do so in order to show a propensity to engage in this kind of activity, but any decent defense attorney will have it suppressed in a suppression hearing as unduly prejudicial without adding anything of substance to the facts of the case charged, which is a different assault.  The ONLY way that this video might get introduced is if Bobby Joe Blithe or the other guy take the stand in their own defense, then it might be used to impeach their credibility, but they are not required per the 5th Amendment to testify in their own trial. 

And this is ALL dependent on being able to prove several things ABOUT the other assault, which we can presume no video documentation exists.

1) That it occurred at all (and isn't just someone looking for publicity)
2) That it can be PROVEN to have occurred at all (i.e. not just some guys word for it)
3) That it constituted FELONY assault, of which there is no statute of limitations in Virginia, and not misdemeanor assault, of which there IS a statute of limitations, and the difference being the difference between Physical injury, and 'SERIOUS' physical injury, and proving that without some kind of documentation is a challenge in it's own right.

That's just three issues right off the top of my head.



shesulsa said:


> Please understand - my fascination here is that conclusions are just *so* often jumped to by everyone. I like to play devil's advocate because I think we challenge ourselves to examine what's before us and in conversing we learn from each other ... hopefully.


 Oh I agree, that's the position I take on most things.  It makes for interesting conversations.  It's actually an interesting topic, from a purely theoretical perspective.  

I expect Law and Order to have an episode about it in a few weeks.......though their prosecutor will use some obscure law to prosecute Bobby Joe Blythe, but that only works in Hollywood.  'Creative use' of the law tends to be frowned on by most judges.



shesulsa said:


> The press is putting forth the notion that the PD is actively pursuing this case.  Might that not be the truth in the interest of appeasing the local and internet communities?  Why would they publish inaccurate and seemingly ignorant statements about one man's training - is that indicative of individual ignorance or was it bait (wanting to draw the victim out)?


 Individual ignorance.  

This guy didn't train at Quantico.......his skills were far more likely to have been derived from catching Kung Fu sagas at the matinee.  Many folks perceived some level of skills watching the video that were not really there.  Certainly no 'Judo' skills were displayed whatsoever, which really shows that particular officers complete ignorance on matters of martial arts......which is not really uncommon.......many officers 'expertise' on the subject begin with and end with their few block hours of training in the academy, and some barely passed that.

There's nothing that they would say that is going to draw out a mentally ill man who 25 years ago got assaulted.......They know this guy is long gone, many years gone, in fact.  The life expectency of a mentally ill (likely schizophrenic) man living on the streets isn't that long.



shesulsa said:


> Is this all just a song and dance being sold to soothe people's feathers?  Why not, instead, be honest and say, 'we can't do anything here?' Fear of retribution?
> 
> Please enlighten. Thanks.


 They don't want to say 'We can't do anything' because that would be impolitic.......instead they are going to say 'We are looking in to it and we'll do all can'........which MEANS the same thing, but sounds better.


Now, if this guy does happen to step in to the local PD office there saying he's that guy, and wants to make a report, they'll take his statement and forward a prosecution request to the Prosecutor........but the notion that these detectives are spending their time scouring the country for this guy is really silly to anyone who is actually ever done investigative work........as I said in a previous post, they are more interested in the shooting at the local crack house 2 weeks ago, and the four dozen other open cases on their desk, most of which occurred at least in this decade, not before some of them were born. 


However, I can tell you that there very likely is A detective or two, likely the two quoted, who's chief DID say 'It's your case, enjoy it....do what you can.....the prosecutor is going to be asking for some kind of report, as the media is up up HIS *** too!.'......and they've been cussing Bobby Joe Blythe AND anonymous Jesus-fu guy EVER since!


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## grydth (Sep 13, 2009)

The LEOs who post here are almost certainly correct in asserting that this case is not, as a practical matter, viable as a criminal prosecution. The statute of limitations (unless murder could be proven) alone would be fatal.

Another hurdle would be that this comes across on the video as a mutual combat; indeed it appears as if the yltimate victim came to the dojo looking for trouble. Does that excuse what was done to him? No, but he may see or believe that his actions were criminal as well.... or 25 years later, he may well be fried and not even coherent. What prosecutor wants that as a lead witness?

As offensive as this video is, be careful how far you wish to open Pandora's Box..... for you may find that this is merely the only surviving video version of a practice which occurred way too often "in the good old days". Indeed, you may find worse examples, such as where the victims were lured in for an assault or where organized thugs went outside of their own schools and suppressed any other dojos, any other styles which tried to open in the area.

You might find some of today's respected MA elders did things much like this in the past. Once this type of criminal behavior was the subject of proud boasts in certain circles.... but then, dog and cock fighting used to be okay, too.

Perhaps it is better to let the past alone and focus on the future......


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## elder999 (Sep 13, 2009)

grydth said:


> for you may find that this is merely the only surviving video version of a practice which occurred way too often "in the good old days". Indeed, you may find worse examples, such as where the victims were lured in for an assault or where organized thugs went outside of their own schools and suppressed any other dojos, any other styles which tried to open in the area.
> 
> You might find some of today's respected MA elders did things much like this in the past. Once this type of criminal behavior was the subject of proud boasts in certain circles.... but then, dog and cock fighting used to be okay, too.
> 
> ..


 
That's what I'm talking about.....challenges, dojo wars, and beat-downs were somewhat commonplace when I was a kid.


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## Tez3 (Sep 13, 2009)

And there's TMA people saying that MMA is bad..............


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## jks9199 (Sep 13, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> So my question, then, for Sarge and JKS would be this: if they DO charge Blythe with assault based on the video evidence and any testimony from the "other victim" would that be a miscarriage of justice? Would convicting him be?
> 
> Please understand - my fascination here is that conclusions are just *so* often jumped to by everyone. I like to play devil's advocate because I think we challenge ourselves to examine what's before us and in conversing we learn from each other ... hopefully.
> 
> ...


It would be a near legal impossibility; you have to understand that the justice system and the concept _justice_ have only a nodding acquaintance.  On a good day...  (And, for reasons that are way off topic, it's probably a good thing overall.)

The charge at issue would be assault.  Depending on the extent of the injury and the nature of the assault, it would be either simple assault (a misdemeanor), malicious wounding (felony), or aggravated malicious wounding. (felony)  I don't think there's even a small chance of anything approaching homicide unless it's shown that the victim died within a year and a day as a result of injuries received in this beating.  A daring prosecutor might try to make a mob assault case (on the theory that the entire group participated by watching even though only one person did the beating) -- but I doubt it.  Way too many problems with that one...  To move from simple assault, the prosecutor would have to show that either the intent of the assault was to do such serious harm to the victim that their day to day function would be impaired or that they would be maimed or permanently disfigured, or that the injuries received did such damage.   I know of several cases with significant unarmed beatings that have been held not to rise to this level, and I've worked hard to demonstrate the extent of the injuries to get it to hold in several myself.  In other words -- there's a very good chance that this may not rise to the level of a felony, under Virginia law.  Especially since we have to really go back and look at the laws as they were written 25 years ago, not what they say today...

And the PD is certainly doing a publicity inspired investigation.  I strongly suspect that the most that will come out of it is a public statement that either the victim was located, identified, and is fine... or cannot be identified.  And my money's on the latter.  They'll document what they've done to find him (detectives contacted other students, the ME's office, fliers were posted, extensive internet coverage, etc.) and leave it be.  Even if identified, unless it's a homicide, I just don't see a prosecution going forward.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 13, 2009)

Bobby Joe Blythe must be one serious idiot to look at these tapes, 25 years later and say 'You know, i'm proud enough of this to post it on Youtube'...........any normal person, even if 25 years ago they were jackass enough to do something like this, would look at the tapes and say 'Yeah......not sure I want folks to know i'm really that big of a jackass........think i'll just burn these and pretend it never happened.'


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## Archangel M (Sep 13, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> So my question, then, for Sarge and JKS would be this: if they DO charge Blythe with assault based on the video evidence and any testimony from the "other victim" would that be a miscarriage of justice? Would convicting him be?
> 
> Please understand - my fascination here is that conclusions are just *so* often jumped to by everyone. I like to play devil's advocate because I think we challenge ourselves to examine what's before us and in conversing we learn from each other ... hopefully.
> 
> ...



You also have to remember that we are LEO's, not lawyers, judges or politicians. We investigate crimes, make arrests and try to put together as solid a case as possible to hand over to the court system. What they do with it from there can be as aggravating, confusing and illogical to US as it can be to YOU. If not even moreso. 

To be truthful. In our profession there are times when a case is "solid" and meets all the criteria of the written statute and sometimes the charge can be a "stretch". Which means that the circumstances of the case somewhat fit the statute but may require some legal wrangling/argument from the prosecutor to pass judicial muster. Sometimes we have NO real case but the political situation is such that to placate public outrage criminal proceedings are started anyway, much as my colleagues have already stated.  

Is that "right"? Well, IMO there are differences between manufacturing evidence, malicious prosecution and fabrication of charges and "placation" cases like the "cheerleader mom" case previously mentioned and perhaps even this one. The public doesn't like the other examples but seem to demand the last at times.

It's the nature of the beast.


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## Tez3 (Sep 13, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> You also have to remember that we are LEO's, not lawyers, judges or politicians. We investigate crimes, make arrests and try to put together as solid a case as possible to hand over to the court system. What they do with it from there can be as aggravating, confusing and illogical to US as it can be to YOU. If not even moreso.
> 
> To be truthful. In our profession there are times when a case is "solid" and meets all the criteria of the written statute and sometimes the charge can be a "stretch". Which means that the circumstances of the case somewhat fit the statute but may require some legal wrangling/argument from the prosecutor to pass judicial muster. Sometimes we have NO real case but the political situation is such that to placate public outrage criminal proceedings are started anyway, much as my colleagues have already stated.
> 
> ...


 

Like ours not a perfect system but if anyone can come with anything better that _pleases all the people, all the time_, I'm sure we'd like to hear from you!


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## Carol (Sep 14, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Like ours not a perfect system but if anyone can come with anything better that _pleases all the people, all the time_, I'm sure we'd like to hear from you!



If you all find out what that system is, please let me know.  I'd like to apply it to my customers :lol:


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