# Call Me Names!!!



## thedan

I'm studying the Yang 24 form right now, begginer level, and have some questions about the things I was taught. Any stylist can answer these, by the way, as I'm more interested in theory and aplication than in how any one style or system does it.

First, posting. This to me seems to completely break down body structure. I don't care how "right" you do it, you can feel it as you move. And when you test it on people that have been doing this a while, it is the same- after they post and step, and are in any posture they choose, their structure is gone under force. 

Conversely, I can step "on railroad tracks" into any psoture in the 24 form you want me to and I have structure in the direction of force that posture is intended to have it. And I am neither very stout nor very experienced.

So how does your school or system step through from one posture to another? Do you "post" (crescent), or do you completely transfer weight and then step *straight* forward?

Second, moving backward, as in _Repulse the Monkey_. I find it much more structured as well as practical to pivot on the _Younquan _as opposed to allowing the foot to pivot on the heel with leg straight and knee exposed while you presumably fend off an attacker. Pivoting around the Youngquan structures the leg to protect that knee, and also engages the muscles of the foot and leg in proper sequence to step *as the tantien turns and carries it*. Note it is important to keep pressure on the foot as it turns as well, or muscles are not engaged. This is a huge problem I see with allowing it to turn on the heel- no pressure, no muscular engagement, and therefore no structure. Just an exposed and unsupported knee left in the path of an oncoming assailant.

Again the question is, how do you do this?

Of course, the implied questions here, are there any insights that I'm missing? Knowlege I lack that would either prove me wrong, or that might help me continue on this path and do it better?

I'm in the (enviable???) position of not having a school right now, so I can explore this without steping on any toes (other than maybe aggrivating some of the people I occasionally work with). 

Apreciate any help, insights ... hell, you can even call me names for not blindly following what I was taught! lol

Dan C


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## pete

dan, my old friend, nice to see you again~

seems like you are building internal awareness to your body's messages, and identifying stuff that just doesn't feel right.

my suggestion is back to basic tai chi principles, regardless of what form or style you are doing, the principles are universal.

first: counterbalance: whereever there is an 'up' there must be a 'down', where there is a left, a right...and where there is a forward, there must be a rearward.

second: circles, spirals, and arcs: take a look at the tai chi diagram... no straight lines, only curvey ones, right? your physical manifestation of the diagram should embody that, so wherever there is a weight shift there is a turning, either clockwise or counter-clock... no turning, circle: no tai chi.

lastly all movement must be directed from the waist. the foot doesn't tell the body where to go, the positon of the body drops the foot into place.

so specifically to your questions, say the posture involves a right step forward: 

#1. how does one lift the right foot and maintain counterbalance? try sinking into your left hip crease to release the right foot from the floor. keep the counterbalance so you only lift the right foot while you are sinking your left hip. 

#2. prevent #1 from being linear. As you sink into your left hip turn slightly to the left, as if you are screwing your left foot into the floor. you should feel your right foot unscrewing from the floor preparing to step.

#3. let the dog wag the tail, or allow your body's positioning drop the foot in place. so in the example we are using, you've turned slightly to the left in #2, so your hips are facing the left corner, if that is where you want to be sink a little more in the left hip and turn a little more to the left to drive the extension of the right step, the more you sink and turn the larger the gait of the step.. a little sink, a little step~

now suppose you do not want to step to the left, but would like to step forward or slightly to the right... well the sinking hip will also need to contain a small circle to change direction of your hips to the left... your right leg which has already been 'unscrewed' will follow that circle counter-clock and in this case there is a what i think you refer to as a 'cresent' step.

now walking rearward is the same thing as walking forward. only the small circle goes in the opposite direction. in our example above, instead of right foot stepping forward, you sink into a small clockwise circle to propel your 'unscrewed' right foot rearward. to step again, continue turning clockwise, shifting weight into the right foot, sinking the right hip crease, thereby screwing the right foot into the floor WHILE unscrewing the left foot... continue sinking and turning to propel your left foot into a rearward step.

so counterbalance, circles, and body positioning.

pete


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## ggg214

to your first question
in my style (&#21556;&#24335, until now after learning about 2 years, straight is the requirement from one step to anther. but i know that my master is doing circle internal while move, because when you put your hands on or push him, you can easily feel the circle.
to your second question, i have no idea.maybe i can't understand.


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## thedan

Pete! Glad to see you as well!

lol You know me- internal/external, same same brother! When people ask me what I'm doing, I tell them "External Taiji."



pete said:


> my suggestion is back to basic tai chi principles, regardless of what form or style you are doing, the principles are universal.


Excellant advice, sir!



> first: counterbalance: whereever there is an 'up' there must be a 'down', where there is a left, a right...and where there is a forward, there must be a rearward.
> 
> second: circles, spirals, and arcs: take a look at the tai chi diagram... no straight lines, only curvey ones, right? your physical manifestation of the diagram should embody that, so wherever there is a weight shift there is a turning, either clockwise or counter-clock... no turning, circle: no tai chi.
> 
> lastly all movement must be directed from the waist. the foot doesn't tell the body where to go, the positon of the body drops the foot into place.


Look at the taiji symbol from the edge, and you have your straight line. (If envisioning a sphere, section it). Remember the discussion on joints moving independantly to move as a chain? Each joint moves in three deminsions in a circular motion, but the driving impetus for the next one is a linear pull or push. Same thing with my straight step. Tantien lifts and carries the step, however my intent is to move "straight" forward. However, here is where I have a little misunderstanding, I think.

I tried the maneuvers but mindful of your advice. There is a small arc in the foot movment that I was not previously aware of. Is this what you are referring to?

Also, it might help to define posting. *posting-* a transitional movement wherein the steping foot is brought beside the weighted (full) foot, then moved out to its' intended placement. The path it inscribes is an arc, but almost angular. This, to me, seems good for those that don't entirely fill one leg before steping off with the other, as in a "health" class (the only thing around here), but very bad if you want any structure at all in your movments.



> so specifically to your questions, say the posture involves a right step forward:
> 
> #1. how does one lift the right foot and maintain counterbalance? try sinking into your left hip crease to release the right foot from the floor. keep the counterbalance so you only lift the right foot while you are sinking your left hip.
> 
> #2. prevent #1 from being linear. As you sink into your left hip turn slightly to the left, as if you are screwing your left foot into the floor. you should feel your right foot unscrewing from the floor preparing to step.
> 
> #3. let the dog wag the tail, or allow your body's positioning drop the foot in place. so in the example we are using, you've turned slightly to the left in #2, so your hips are facing the left corner, if that is where you want to be sink a little more in the left hip and turn a little more to the left to drive the extension of the right step, the more you sink and turn the larger the gait of the step.. a little sink, a little step~
> 
> now suppose you do not want to step to the left, but would like to step forward or slightly to the right... well the sinking hip will also need to contain a small circle to change direction of your hips to the left... your right leg which has already been 'unscrewed' will follow that circle counter-clock and in this case there is a what i think you refer to as a 'cresent' step.


This all sounds familiar- but a little deeper than what I'm doing. I am going to have to work on this before I waste your time with a reply. However, I have one question: as I understand taiji principles, the tantien moves the hips through their circle in most steps (say in Brush Knee) so that they are square to the opponent at the apex of the movment. This would be analogous to Kenpos' momentary solidification as all elements come together at the same time ... except that taiji NEVER stops. The tantien and hips would move right on thru, then reverse as the tantien reverses, carrying both hips and legs, as well as upper body, into the next movment. The (not so much as I'd thought) "straight" step seems to me to lend itself more to this "squareing" of the hips. Am I close here? 



> now walking rearward is the same thing as walking forward. only the small circle goes in the opposite direction. in our example above, instead of right foot stepping forward, you sink into a small clockwise circle to propel your 'unscrewed' right foot rearward. to step again, continue turning clockwise, shifting weight into the right foot, sinking the right hip crease, thereby screwing the right foot into the floor WHILE unscrewing the left foot... continue sinking and turning to propel your left foot into a rearward step.


So you do allow the foot to turn on the heel while steping back? How do you deal with the exposure of the knee to dammage?



> so counterbalance, circles, and body positioning.


Ah, you make it sound so easy ...

I'm workin' on it. Thanks!

Dan C


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## thedan

ggg214 said:


> to your first question
> in my style (&#21556;&#24335, until now after learning about 2 years, straight is the requirement from one step to anther. but i know that my master is doing circle internal while move, because when you put your hands on or push him, you can easily feel the circle.
> to your second question, i have no idea.maybe i can't understand.


Mr. g, thank you for the reply. So your system does step straight forward. At least I know I'm not completely off by myself in my reasoning!

The second question involves how you pivot the lead foot just before steping it to the rear. I'm experimenting with allowing it to turn around the youngquan cavity (located just behind the angle formed by the balls of the foot) while keeping about 15% weight/pressure on that foot. This engages the muscles of the foot and leg so the leg is structured to step, kick with enough forward engagement to deal with an opponents momentum, or to protect the knee should it be struck.

I was in one of my doctors offices and looked at a diagram of the muscles in the foot and lower leg. I can't remember their names, but it was easy to see there how the muscles running from the toes to the small shelf at the front of the heel could leverage and "set" the other muscles of the lower leg in an engaged posture. And you can fel it when you move.

My problem is, I don't know if I'll be messing myself up for some later, more advanced moves or concepts if I do this now.

Apreciate the help tho, sir.

Dan C


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## pete

> lol You know me- internal/external, same same brother! When people ask me what I'm doing, I tell them "External Taiji."


don't lock yourself into that thinking, there ARE REAL differences between internal and external training methods, 'nother topic - 'nother day. a lot of teachers will start students on 'external' tai chi, because they either (a) don't know the internal or the difference, or (b) don't want to risk losing a beginning (paying) student to the more difficult stuff.  bad news, got to at least understand there is an internal practice from day-1, not that you'll 'get it', but that you know its there.



> Look at the taiji symbol from the edge


 there ain't no edge. yes it is a sphere, especially when looked at as a physical model. and, no, don't slice it or dice it, or otherwise section it up like a grapefruit... tai chi, think wholistic, connected, every piece is essential or else it wouldn't be there.



> the driving impetus for the next one is a linear pull or push.


 don't fool yourself, if something is straight, something ain't right. search for the circles.




> Tantien lifts


 nope, tantien does not lift, but directs. also, better to use english terms like waist, or better 'center' and avoid stuff like younguan, mingmen, tantien, and the like... unless you speak fluent mandarin.



> There is a small arc in the foot movment that I was not previously aware of. Is this what you are referring to?


 yes, as long as the foot isn't making the circles, the foot is reacting in a circle as a result of other circles further upstream.

*



			posting
		
Click to expand...

*


> - a transitional movement wherein the steping foot is brought beside the weighted (full) foot, then moved out to its' intended placement.


 as i said earlier, this type of stepping does have its place, but think less of the movement of the foot and more of what the rest of your body is doing... for example, how is your head, spine, and hands supporting your balance through the step? where are your palms facing? which direction are your palms rotating? (if they are not rotating, again with the circles, they are not supporting your movement.



> This would be analogous to Kenpos' momentary solidification as all elements come together at the same time ... except that taiji NEVER stops.


 yes, but remember tai chi is not kenpo! (internal is not external)... kenpo talks of bracing angles, which equals resistance.. force meeting force.  tai chi work with yielding and adhering, giving way to opponents force and capturing positional advantage. 



> So you do allow the foot to turn on the heel while steping back?


 no 





> How do you deal with the exposure of the knee to dammage?


 keep the knee bent and over the foot, especially while your body weight is filling the rear foot.

again back to counterbalance, with your physical presence moving rearward, what are you using as forward counterbalance? (hint: bent knee) 

again back to circles, as you make the circles to step rearward how do you keep your lower back open and not closing up? (hint: where are your toes pointing when you place your foot down?

pete


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## Formosa Neijia

thedan said:


> First, posting. This to me seems to completely break down body structure. I don't care how "right" you do it, you can feel it as you move. And when you test it on people that have been doing this a while, it is the same- after they post and step, and are in any posture they choose, their structure is gone under force.



Not necessarily. You can have structure in one-legged stances. It just isn't as strong as in two-legged stances in most people. but it isn't supposed to be. The one-legged stances are transitions and transitions are extremely important. 

Many people look at taiji forms as a series of moves that occur only at the end postures. To them, you arrive at single whip only at the end of the posture.  Brush knee, white crane, etc. are only the end points of those postures. But that isn't true. Each taiji move is the whole move from beginning to end. In fact, the whole form is nothing but one long transition. 

So I would look at the sequences and transitions.




> Second, moving backward, as in _Repulse the Monkey_. I find it much more structured as well as practical to pivot on the _Younquan _as opposed to allowing the foot to pivot on the heel with leg straight and knee exposed while you presumably fend off an attacker. ..This is a huge problem I see with allowing it to turn on the heel- no pressure, no muscular engagement, and therefore no structure. Just an exposed and unsupported knee left in the path of an oncoming assailant.



Turning on the heel can be a smart move. These are usually hidden sweeps. If you took the heel turn out, then students would miss the clues that the sweeps are there. Turning on the heel instead of the toes or yongquan also gives your more length to turn. You get at least two more inches of movement by turning on the heel. That can make all the difference. Have you done push hands yet? In push hands you'll find this out.

The main thing I notice about your posts is that you keep mentioning structure. That seems to be the lens you're viewing everything through. Structure can be good to a certain extent, but it isn't everything.

I would recommend buying one or more copies of the classics. Doug Wiles Lost Taichi Classics of the Late Ching Dynasty is highly recommended. 

If you get into the classics you'll see that they never mention structure. Never. Instead, they talk about the 8 jins, relaxation, and sticking, adhering, and following. Those are the main points to work on in taiji. Let the classics be your guide no matter who your teacher is.

This obsession with structure will eventually get in your way and prevent your understanding of taiji.


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## thedan

pete said:


> ... say the posture involves a right step forward:
> 
> #1. how does one lift the right foot and maintain counterbalance? try sinking into your left hip crease to release the right foot from the floor. keep the counterbalance so you only lift the right foot while you are sinking your left hip. ...
> 
> now suppose you do not want to step to the left, but would like to step forward or slightly to the right... well the sinking hip will also need to contain a small circle to change direction of your hips to the left... your right leg which has already been 'unscrewed' will follow that circle counter-clock and in this case there is a what i think you refer to as a 'cresent' step.


 
OK, I've tried your advice and here is what I experience with this:

Standing feet shoulder width, toes forward, waist turns ccw as right knee bends and weight sinks to right foot. Left foot pivots on heel untill foot is 45' outward. Waist continues to turn ccw as left knee bends, right knee straightens and weight is transfered to left foot. When waist is at its max ccw travel and all weight is on left, right foot is empty and the heel is up. As waist turns cw it carries upper body and the right leg in the direction of my intent- in this case, straight forward. However, this may be a little off in my case as I definately have to step here- the right knee bends just a little to lift the foot and allow the carry, and the hip muscles do not allow the leg to just hang. Not _purely_ a "carry" of that right leg/foot.

If I completely relax the right leg, except for the muscles needed to bend the knee, and let the hips carry the step, the right foot absolutely has to come to the left foot, and then is carried into position by the hips (which are driven by the waist). This movment is so devoid of structure throughout, however, that I feel I am in a continuouse state of ballance (as opposed to the more desireable condition of ballance), and could have no effect on an opponent whatsoever, even by yielding.

As to the hands and arms, I let them turn naturally so there is no tension. I try to move only one major joint in each limb at a time as I bring them up into the posture I choose, the exception being that as I extend my hands from the heel the metacarpals and carpals all tend to extend at the same time. My head looks in the direction of my intent, and the waist carries the upper body and arms in that direction simultaneosly with the lower body. Heaven and earth connected by the movment of the small muscles of the lower back and sides just at the top of the pelvic girdle.

Here again, however, if I let the leg hang/post, and then carry it out into posture, with the structural breakdown this induces and the resulting state of ballance, my arms and upper body are more concerned with maintaining ballance than proper movement, harmony and unification.

Hope that was understandable, sir, and thank you for the help.

Dan C


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## thedan

Formosa Neijia said:


> Many people look at taiji forms as a series of moves that occur only at the end postures. To them, you arrive at single whip only at the end of the posture. Brush knee, white crane, etc. are only the end points of those postures. But that isn't true. Each taiji move is the whole move from beginning to end. In fact, the whole form is nothing but one long transition. So I would look at the sequences and transitions.


 
To my understanding, sir, how you get to a posture is more important than that you even get there at all. The movments as you aquire a posture would recruit the proper muscles and align the body to deal with the anticipated forces in the encounter. They also set you up to react if the situation changes dureing your transition. Point well taken about looking at the entire transition, as well as the fact that the postures themselves are transitional. 



> Turning on the heel can be a smart move. These are usually hidden sweeps. If you took the heel turn out, then students would miss the clues that the sweeps are there. Turning on the heel instead of the toes or yongquan also gives your more length to turn. You get at least two more inches of movement by turning on the heel. That can make all the difference. Have you done push hands yet? In push hands you'll find this out.


 
I do the last turn in the Repulse Monkey sequence as a heel turn, because it flows/transitions better into the next sequence (Grasp the Birds Tail). Here I can see a sweep as a possible aplication. However, are you saying always allow the foot to turn on the heel?



> The main thing I notice about your posts is that you keep mentioning structure. That seems to be the lens you're viewing everything through. Structure can be good to a certain extent, but it isn't everything.


 
Not everything, sir. However, in my understanding of the arts, this is where a beggining student should focus. Get a good fondation with good structure, and drill that structure into neurological memory until it is second nature, and learn to use it as you aply the other principles and concepts of the art ("the 8 jins, relaxation, and sticking, adhering, and following"). I'll keep in mind, however, that I may be paying too much attention to this aspect and not enough to others.



> I would recommend buying one or more copies of the classics. Doug Wiles Lost Taichi Classics of the Late Ching Dynasty is highly recommended.


 
Thank you sir. I'll try to locate that book.

Dan C


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## thedan

Formosa Neijia, maybe I should give an example as to why I think an understanding (or at least the attempt) of structure is important. In one class we were working on White Crane Spreads Its' Wings, and I listened to a couple of senior students and the instructor talking. They were concerned with the weighting of the lead (left) foot and the palm position of the right hand in the upward position. They decided that the foot should be unweighted, and the palm turned inward as this looked more graceful, and was more like a picture they'd seen of a crane with its' wings spread. OK ...

I'm thinking that without a little pressure on the ball of that left foot, there is a total structural breakdown at any given point in that posture. Further, the arm is up in an upward deflection position. To properly structure that to deal with ANY force, it must deploy vertically up your centerline until the upper arm is parallel to the floor, and then rotate so the palm is out. Then, as the sequence continues, the elbow drops and that arm comes across in an inward deflecting movment as the left moves from its' position at the side, palm out (very important) to come up so the upper arm is parallel to the floor and the forearm raised palm out. Then the right sweeps down (downward deflection) as the left moves through an inward deflection. 

This is the optimal structural sequencing for those moves. Furthermore, there are some interesting principles contrasted there. For example, the upward deflection goes to the inward deflection without any further structural sequencing because, once structure is aquired, it is maintained through all the deflections until you or your opponent does something to break it. However, for the step forward and push, a new structural sequence is engaged in the right arm.

Now, I'm sure there is a lot more going on there than that. And those moves can probably do much more than that. But I'm reasonably sure as well that the moves were not based on a photograph of a crane. More like the name was based on the similarity of the crane to the move. By the way, I'm no longer in that class. It was mostly profs from the local community college, and reality was NOT an option there. However, without some idea of structure, I'd be learning taiji out of a National Geographic right now.

Dan C


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## pete

Dan, i read your latest posts, and give you a lot of credit for trying... but you've really got to get yourself to a good teacher, even if its a periodic private lesson or weekend workshops... we are trying as best we can to give a little guidance, but words will only go so far... you need hands on.

anyway, 2 things to consider:

1. by the way you phrase your questions, it seems you have a separation in your mind of what the lower body is supposed to be doing (ie, step)upper body is supposed to do (ie, fight)... try looking at things more wholistically.  for example, in your mind have your feet do the fighting and your hands do the stepping. 

2. the classics tell us to clearly discern yin from yang, yet keep them balanced. one piece of this principle manifests itself in practice by keeping the mind and physical presence in balance as you move. for example, in your white crane example, AS your physical presence fills your right foot with the weight of your body, shift your mental presence to your left foot. be sure to keep the connection of your left knee over your left foot, and the connection of your left sole to the ground.  to test: as you TURN and SHIFT weight, you should feel your right foot screwing into the ground as your left foot unscrews... do not allow the left foot to unscrew completely as that would destroy root. Rather allow yourself to change direction and undo your posture by TURNING BACK and SHIFTING weight, screwing the left foot in while unscrewing the right. 

This is one of the keys to what the classics refer to as avoiding the double-weight. most people translate that to just the feet, but it also includes the mind, the whole body, including the feet.

pete


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## thedan

pete said:


> Dan, ... but you've really got to get yourself to a good teacher, even if its a periodic private lesson or weekend workshops... we are trying as best we can to give a little guidance, but words will only go so far... you need hands on.


I couldn't agreee more! However, it may be a while before I can do that. It is over 200 mi to the nearest competant teacher and over $4.00 a gl for gas ... hard to find partners willing and able to share that kind of cost and time. And good partners are almost as important as a good teacher. I do have one really good partner, but she is so straped for cash i'd have to pay all her expenses to even ask her to do that. Right now that is a no go. 

What I'm trying to do is sharpen my understanding and skills with what I have been taught. But I hate practicing something like this wrong. Not just counterproductive, but destructive as well. That is why I value the input and critique of people who are more experienced. And I thank you for what you have shared, while acknowledgeing the limmitations of the written word in conveying ideas of internal movment.



> anyway, 2 things to consider:
> 
> 1. by the way you phrase your questions, it seems you have a separation in your mind of what the lower body is supposed to be doing (ie, step)upper body is supposed to do (ie, fight)... try looking at things more wholistically. for example, in your mind have your feet do the fighting and your hands do the stepping.


I think you are right. I know from Kenpo that you can fight effectively using nothing but basic footwork, I also did not want to complicate the equation just yet by mixing that in. lol As you know, I am quite capable of complicating even the simplest things, without adding the more complex movments! 



> 2. the classics tell us to clearly discern yin from yang, yet keep them balanced. one piece of this principle manifests itself in practice by keeping the mind and physical presence in balance as you move. for example, in your white crane example, AS your physical presence fills your right foot with the weight of your body, shift your mental presence to your left foot. be sure to keep the connection of your left knee over your left foot, and the connection of your left sole to the ground. to test: as you TURN and SHIFT weight, you should feel your right foot screwing into the ground as your left foot unscrews... do not allow the left foot to unscrew completely as that would destroy root. Rather allow yourself to change direction and undo your posture by TURNING BACK and SHIFTING weight, screwing the left foot in while unscrewing the right.
> 
> This is one of the keys to what the classics refer to as avoiding the double-weight. most people translate that to just the feet, but it also includes the mind, the whole body, including the feet.


Now this is interesting. Does seem a good way to contrast these concepts without overcomplicating things. Thanks.

Dan C


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## Formosa Neijia

thedan said:


> To my understanding, sir, how you get to a posture is more important than that you even get there at all.



That's true to a certain extent. But looking at the moves as transitions and sequences will cause some of them to make sense in a way that might not have occurred to you if you just viewed them in isolation. That's what I'm pointing out.



> However, are you saying always allow the foot to turn on the heel?


 just let it happen as your form dictates. Don't try to take stuff out or change it because it might not make sense to you now. Much of taiji isn't obvious at the beginning. A lot of it is done that way for a reason.



thedan said:


> ...White Crane Spreads Its' Wings...I'm thinking that without a little pressure on the ball of that left foot, there is a total structural breakdown at any given point in that posture



Structure can be maintained even on just one leg and in 100% weighted positions on that one leg. For example, you mention going vertical in this example. Moving vertical doesn't require structure to the outside because the force is going up. Your structure occurs between the base (ground) and focus (your upper arm). That's all that's required.



> ...once structure is aquired, it is maintained through all the deflections until you or your opponent does something to break it.


This points to a real weakness of structure. The better people you'll likely meet in the future won't BREAK you structure as you expect it, they'll use it against you. By emphasizing structure, you're making every part of your body a handle connected to the dantian. They take all those handles you're giving them and throw you all over the place. It's like taking candy from a baby. 

This is why the taiji is a non-obvious style -- you have to hide your attributes. Emphasizing obvious aspects like structure are okay in the beginning, but eventually you'll to do away with this kind of training. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that is a little structure is good, then having loads of it is better.


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## thedan

Formosa Neijia said:


> That's true to a certain extent. But looking at the moves as transitions and sequences will cause some of them to make sense in a way that might not have occurred to you if you just viewed them in isolation. That's what I'm pointing out.


Thank you sir. I'll try to be mindful of that in my practice.



> just let it happen as your form dictates. Don't try to take stuff out or change it because it might not make sense to you now. Much of taiji isn't obvious at the beginning. A lot of it is done that way for a reason.


Yes, sir, this is why I asked the more knowlegable (you all here) about these things. pete is right, I do need a good instructor. But for the forseeable future, that doesn't seem feasable. 




> Structure can be maintained even on just one leg and in 100% weighted positions on that one leg. For example, you mention going vertical in this example. Moving vertical doesn't require structure to the outside because the force is going up. Your structure occurs between the base (ground) and focus (your upper arm). That's all that's required.


Understand what you are saying, however there would be few instances where you would need simple straight upward structure. If that upward deflection were to be used to deal with an overhead strike with a bludgeon, for example, you would have to redirect the striking arm laterally, away from your body- which in White Crane is turning cw out of the path. Both the deflection and the turn would (in my understanding) require lateral structure to not collapse under force.

Also, in my understanding (and here may be where taiji differs- not sure), if one part of your body breaks structure, doesn't it effect the entire body? Just putting that right arm up into position would certainly isolate the right arm, having no structure. But wouldn't that ruin structure in the entire body? Conversely, doing a good upward deflection, but with no structure in the base because your left foot is in contact with the ground but not aplying any pressure, you still have no structure in the deflecting arm and, even if you did, no base to support it.

My understanding of yielding is admittedly limmited, but I have a difficult time seeing it as collapsing- and I doubt that is what you mean here. But with no structure, I'm having trouble seeing it as anything else. 



> This points to a real weakness of structure. The better people you'll likely meet in the future won't BREAK you structure as you expect it, they'll use it against you. By emphasizing structure, you're making every part of your body a handle connected to the dantian. They take all those handles you're giving them and throw you all over the place. It's like taking candy from a baby.
> 
> 
> This is why the taiji is a non-obvious style -- you have to hide your attributes. Emphasizing obvious aspects like structure are okay in the beginning, but eventually you'll to do away with this kind of training. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that is a little structure is good, then having loads of it is better.


That I can intuitively grasp, sir. Eventually, as you say, I may move past the structural emphasis. However, in the beggining, I'm not seeing the wisdom in overlooking it and not training it into neuromuscular memory. Sorry, sir- not being argumentative. Just trying to understand.

Thank you for the input.

Dan C


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## thedan

pete, I've been trying to get my stance to carry the step better- make it less like a step and more the waist driving the hips and hips carrying the step instead of a steping off. I think I'm getting there. Your discription of settling into the crease of the hip more has helped. It is a little awkward right now, but I'm finding that adjusting how I settle into the movment will direct the step. 

As I said, right now I'm trying to work on the things I have been "taught" and improve my understanding of these things. This, I think, is a huge chunk of understanding and (if I get it right) refinemrnt. Thanks for that description, sir.

Dan C


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