# looking for some info.



## Martial D (May 18, 2017)

Hello forum, first post here. I was perusing the internet for something specific, and that would be someone more knowledgeable than wikipedia regarding lineages!

Ok, here's the short version. In the early 90s I lived on a small island, not much to do, when a guy started putting on wing chun classes at the local agricultural hall. He was very skilled, and he was learning from someone on Vancouver Island as far as I know. I did it for about 5 years before I ended up moving. 

Fast forward to now. I've never forgotten my sui lim tau, and recently I've gotten back into practicing on my own. Recently I got curious as to just what lineage of wing chun I have learned, because I sure don't remember, if I ever knew. Insofar as I was concerned I was learning wing chun and didn't think much more about what style it was.

So I think to myself, an easy way would be to see which version of sui lim tau matches the one I know. So i research the googles for different lineages, and find videos of people of those lineages doing their little idea. Sure enough none of them look much like what I am doing. My first though was fake wing chun, but Bruce was masterful with his movements and there's no way to really ******** the sorts of things I learned, at least not easily, so I am convinced it is real wing chun. Plus in the early 90s there wasn't really any of that going around, there was no internet really, no youtube, and outside of magazines no real cross style mixing or publicity. 

I could make of video of my sui lim tau if it's worthwhile (ie anyone here fancies themselves an expert) but I didn't want to do it for nothing. It's just a bug eating at my brain id like to solve..this wingchun had to come from SOMEWHERE


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## wckf92 (May 18, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Hello forum, first post here. I was perusing the internet for something specific, and that would be someone more knowledgeable than wikipedia regarding lineages!
> 
> Ok, here's the short version. In the early 90s I lived on a small island, not much to do, when a guy started putting on wing chun classes at the local agricultural hall. He was very skilled, and he was learning from someone on Vancouver Island as far as I know. I did it for about 5 years before I ended up moving.
> 
> ...



Yeah dude, film your SLT and post it. This forum has a wide lineage and experience base...most likely one of us can assist you.


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## Callen (May 18, 2017)

Welcome to the forum.



Martial D said:


> Ok, here's the short version. In the early 90s I lived on a small island, not much to do, when a guy started putting on wing chun classes at the local agricultural hall. He was very skilled, and he was learning from someone on Vancouver Island as far as I know.



Maybe I missed it, but what Island did you live on?


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## Martial D (May 19, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Yeah dude, film your SLT and post it. This forum has a wide lineage and experience base...most likely one of us can assist you.


Ok, will do, tonight or Saturday.




Callen said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I missed it, but what Island did you live on?



I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have heard of it, it's one of the southern gulf islands off the west coast of Canada. I'll expound upon that more if it becomes relevant(ie if it comes to light someone might know one of the relevant parties)


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## wingchun100 (May 19, 2017)

Let us get a look at it. Welcome to the forum.


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## Martial D (May 19, 2017)

Cool, thanks guys. I hope we can get to the bottom of this so the next time someone asks about my wing Chun I won't look retarded.


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## Buka (May 19, 2017)

Welcome to MT, bro.

Lot of knowledge WC guys here. They'll help you out. Good luck.


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## Martial D (May 19, 2017)

Ok, here it is. Kinda sloppy compared to when I was training back then, but hopefully you get the idea.


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## Martial D (May 19, 2017)

The lack of reply is a bit disheartening. I'm certainly no Yip Man...but surely these movements must be recognizable to someone.


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## wckf92 (May 19, 2017)

Martial D said:


> The lack of reply is a bit disheartening. I'm certainly no Yip Man...but surely these movements must be recognizable to someone.



Sorry bro. Been a busy day.
Many elements of your form seem to have a distinct Yip Man flavor. Though, the angle or height of the camera makes it difficult to see clearly.


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## Martial D (May 19, 2017)

Ya, it's not the best video, cant really see the feet or stance, I guess i was just hoping the sequence of hand movements would be enough to spark someones memory, have and 'oh ya its this' moment, and I could go on my way with some new info, or a new direction to research in, or something. Hopefully that still happens, I'll just wait


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## KPM (May 19, 2017)

Certainly a Ip Man Wing Chun version.  Hard to say which branch.  Nothing particularly different.  The extra movement after the Tan/Gan movement of the 2nd second section is likely a signature move for whichever Ip Man branch this is.  But I can't say whose.


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## JR 137 (May 19, 2017)

Martial D said:


> The lack of reply is a bit disheartening. I'm certainly no Yip Man...but surely these movements must be recognizable to someone.


It's Friday night.  Things are typically a lot slower.  I'd comment, but I'm not a WC guy, so I have no idea.


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## DanT (May 19, 2017)

What I can tell you:

Yip Man Lineage, probably a student from the early 50's, given the Tan-Chum-Tan, instead of the Tan-Gan-Tan which was introduced in the late 50's. Looks like Lok Yiu's stuff. Honestly given that you only learned SLT, any Yip Man school would be good.


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## Martial D (May 19, 2017)

Interesting, thanks. Yip man uses some different movements in his little idea, so it must have split off somewhere. As the bulk of what we have now seems to go back to yip man I'd like to get a little more specific, but you've certainly given me a clue regarding what it's not. Thank you.

Edit - I will research Lok Yiu


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## Martial D (May 19, 2017)

So, there isn't much out there on Lok Yiu, no videos of anyone of his lineage I can find. Makes sense if that is the case, since I've been coming up empty so far.


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## Wing Chun Auckland (May 20, 2017)

So the jut/jum sau part after the tan/gan part can narrow it down some. Yep, agree its Yip Man. This is not Chu Shong Tin. But I know WSL guys have that part of the form. Not Austine Fong. Not Leung TIng. Out of all the forms I have seen, it looks the most like WSL style.


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## Headhunter (May 20, 2017)

Martial D said:


> The lack of reply is a bit disheartening. I'm certainly no Yip Man...but surely these movements must be recognizable to someone.


My friend it had been less than 2 hours since you posted the video. People don't sit on this forum all day. Remember not everyone here is wing chun either. I've posted stuff before and not had any replies until weeks or months later


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## Martial D (May 20, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> My friend it had been less than 2 hours since you posted the video. People don't sit on this forum all day. Remember not everyone here is wing chun either. I've posted stuff before and not had any replies until weeks or months later


This is true, but keep in mind, for a fruitfly this is a lifetime.


I overestimated the activity of this place I guess, but the results so far haven't been terrible. I'm certainly closer to learning the answer to this question than I was yesterday.


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## Wing Chun Auckland (May 20, 2017)

Martial D said:


> This is true, but keep in mind, for a fruitfly this is a lifetime.
> 
> 
> I overestimated the activity of this place I guess, but the results so far haven't been terrible. I'm certainly closer to learning the answer to this question than I was yesterday.



I think there are several yip man lineages that do the form like that. What would be more telling is how you do your application or chi sao. Or if you could post a clip of someone who does chi sao the most like you were taught. Also check the various facebook wing chun forums. They have huge followings.


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## Martial D (May 20, 2017)

I don't Facebook.  I don't have a lot of hard and fast rules, but that's one.

We did mostly rolling hands(my apologies, I don't remember all the Chinese terms), and a sort of one handed fencing.

As for application, we did do a fair amount of sparring, with the objective being quick resolution. I guess that is the case for all Wing Chun, lol.

We also did a fair amount of Arnis and there was some inevitable bleed over.

I do remember a couple other things now. I remember two specific things Bruce contrasted with our Wing Chun. One was the large lunging steps of William Cheung(so it's not that) and the other being something called T stepping which we didn't use.

Also, the spelling was Wing Chun not Ving Chun or some other variety.

I think you guys are right about it being a Yip Man derivation. Thanks to all


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## Martial D (May 20, 2017)

Do any of you know anything about Sifu Fred Kwok out of Vancouver?

His SLT is the most similar I've seen, and he also incorporates Filipino stuff. I wonder if that's the link.


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## geezer (May 20, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Do any of you know anything about Sifu Fred Kwok out of Vancouver?
> 
> His SLT is the most similar I've seen, and he also incorporates Filipino stuff. I wonder if that's the link.



What you showed was clearly coming from Yip Man, although the sequence was not exactly like the groups I'm personally familiar with. Your former sifu may well have made some personal modifications. Also, unless you trained for a long while, its likely that some of your movements are less than perfect replicas of whatever your sifu taught you, especially since that was some time ago?

Regardless, if you are interested in training again, why not just find a really good school and pick up afresh? It's not like you have a lifetime invested in the particular version you trained before. Or do you?


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## Martial D (May 20, 2017)

geezer said:


> What you showed was clearly coming from Yip Man, although the sequence was not exactly like the groups I'm personally familiar with. Your former sifu may well have made some personal modifications. Also, unless you trained for a long while, its likely that some of your movements are less than perfect replicas of whatever your sifu taught you, especially since that was some time ago?
> 
> Regardless, if you are interested in training again, why not just find a really good school and pick up afresh? It's not like you have a lifetime invested in the particular version you trained before. Or do you?


Naw that's not it. I'm a lifelong student and have practiced various styles, including boxing, kickboxing, JKD, wing chun, and BJJ. I'm not really looking to train pure Wing Chun as I don't feel it is combat effective on it's own, but what I did learn has become a vital part of my physical expression. This curiosity I have is purely of an intellectual nature.

As for the slt, the movements are the same, of this I am very sure.


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## Wing Chun Auckland (May 20, 2017)

geezer said:


> What you showed was clearly coming from Yip Man, although the sequence was not exactly like the groups I'm personally familiar with. Your former sifu may well have made some personal modifications. Also, unless you trained for a long while, its likely that some of your movements are less than perfect replicas of whatever your sifu taught you, especially since that was some time ago?
> 
> Regardless, if you are interested in training again, why not just find a really good school and pick up afresh? It's not like you have a lifetime invested in the particular version you trained before. Or do you?



They sequence is pretty standard YM wing chun, I reckon man.


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## Wing Chun Auckland (May 20, 2017)

Would you use forward pressure in Chi Sao? Such that if the partner pulled his arms away the hands would spring forward on their own? I am really beginning to think this is a Wong Shun Leung derivative. Keeping in mind that the preciseness of his form is probably a little off over the years of not training.


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## Nobody Important (May 20, 2017)

Wing Chun Auckland said:


> So the jut/jum sau part after the tan/gan part can narrow it down some. Yep, agree its Yip Man. This is not Chu Shong Tin. But I know WSL guys have that part of the form. Not Austine Fong. Not Leung TIng. Out of all the forms I have seen, it looks the most like WSL style.


I came to the same conclusion. Most resembles WSL in movement.


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## geezer (May 21, 2017)

Wing Chun Auckland said:


> Would you use forward pressure in Chi Sao? Such that if the partner pulled his arms away the hands would spring forward on their own? I am really beginning to think this is a Wong Shun Leung derivative.



Not so (Oh, the system Martial D learned may be a WSL VT derivative. I can't speak to that). But the idea of _springy energy_ or maintaining constant forward pressure so that your hand will spring forward automatically when freed, is a core tenant of _Leung Ting's WT _and it's offshoots (one of which I train). However, in some groups, such as ours, the springy energy is soft and very light. Others prefer heavier pressure (EBMAS for example).

I have found that the WT groups emphasize this particular _springy energy _attribute far more than what I've personally seen with the few members of other lineages I've crossed bridges with locally, including the Sam Kwok/Ip Chun folks, some Augustine Fong guys, a Duncan Leung guy, a HFY guy, and a few other folks I've met locally. --I haven't met any WSL guys around here yet.  Maybe somebody will turn up. That would be cool....


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## wingchun100 (May 21, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Ok, here it is. Kinda sloppy compared to when I was training back then, but hopefully you get the idea.



No clue. Someone posted a video recently (although I think the guy was doing chum kiu) where, after the opening double tan sao, he separates his hands before bringing them back to chamber like you. As for the rest...no clue. Sorry, man.


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## Martial D (May 21, 2017)

Thanks again guys. 

To answer your Chi Sao question, I was taught to stay 'energy neutral'(a term I distinctly remember) meaning to not expand or contract until the opponent did the converse. Bruce used to term it 'swallowing energy and spitting it back out'. Too much forward pressure means trap and strike(simultaneously), while contracting energy meant break and strike(simultaneously). It's been a minute, that's about all I can remember at the moment.


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## Wing Chun Auckland (May 22, 2017)

geezer said:


> Not so (Oh, the system Martial D learned may be a WSL VT derivative. I can't speak to that). But the idea of _springy energy_ or maintaining constant forward pressure so that your hand will spring forward automatically when freed, is a core tenant of _Leung Ting's WT _and it's offshoots (one of which I train). However, in some groups, such as ours, the springy energy is soft and very light. Others prefer heavier pressure (EBMAS for example).
> 
> I have found that the WT groups emphasize this particular _springy energy _attribute far more than what I've personally seen with the few members of other lineages I've crossed bridges with locally, including the Sam Kwok/Ip Chun folks, some Augustine Fong guys, a Duncan Leung guy, a HFY guy, and a few other folks I've met locally. --I haven't met any WSL guys around here yet.  Maybe somebody will turn up. That would be cool....



Well I did a WT for a couple of years and it was soft contact and more about thinking forward than physically doing it. But, yeah I have seen EBMAS stuff and can see there is springy energy there. But if I were to look at, say, Tassos, I can't see it.


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## Wing Chun Auckland (May 22, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Thanks again guys.
> 
> To answer your Chi Sao question, I was taught to stay 'energy neutral'(a term I distinctly remember) meaning to not expand or contract until the opponent did the converse. Bruce used to term it 'swallowing energy and spitting it back out'. Too much forward pressure means trap and strike(simultaneously), while contracting energy meant break and strike(simultaneously). It's been a minute, that's about all I can remember at the moment.



Energy neutral, huh? Hmmmm not very WSL sounding...... 
WSL don't have a problem with being trapped and use their forward energy effectively to do aggressively get to the target. Also keep in mind that Bruce Lee's main teacher was actually WSL not Yip Man.


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## Wing Chun Auckland (May 22, 2017)

You mentioned that you don't do the T step. So what step do you do? 
If a strike was coming from someone's left hand, and you use your right hand to pak or tan, which foot would be forward, which would be back? How would you be facing the partner?


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## ShortBridge (May 22, 2017)

I don't know, but the expression reminds me a bit of some Leung Sheung players who I know...if you're in a researching mood.


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## Martial D (May 22, 2017)

Wing Chun Auckland said:


> You mentioned that you don't do the T step. So what step do you do?
> If a strike was coming from someone's left hand, and you use your right hand to pak or tan, which foot would be forward, which would be back? How would you be facing the partner?



Those are some solid questions.

The t step was described to me as when stepping to bring the heel back to the center of the back foot(I think as a transition) making a T.

The footwork I was taught was a sort of triangle, from your basic sit on your bones front facing stance (50/50) to a more 90/10(front leg nearly weightless) by bringing the feet together parallel and then back out. The net effect was stepping around and setting up shifts to trap and attack.

That combined with a sort of drag step(again, I don't remember much of the chinese.) Where the weight never comes off the back foot. 

As for your second question..lol I had to get up and conjure an imaginary opponent for that one, and there's a million right answers. If my right foot is forward probably right bill jee to the eyes. If left forward probably right tan and left  punch while shifting onto that left foot into the outside gate(plus hella power in shifting..which is what people don't always get..) if square probably the same thing as left forward but up the middle.

I was never taught exact specific times to do moves, as we actually did spar, and did get to the point where our sparring actually was wc. (Harder than it sounds). We drilled stuff but generally there was 15 ways to deal with everything.


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## KPM (May 22, 2017)

^^^^ Footwork and "neutral energy" is starting to sound much more like Leung Sheung lineage.


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## geezer (May 22, 2017)

Wing Chun Auckland said:


> Well I did a WT for a couple of years and it was soft contact and more about thinking forward than physically doing it. But, yeah I have seen EBMAS stuff and can see there is springy energy there. But if I were to look at, say, Tassos, I can't see it.



Don't know about Tassos. I trained with Leung Ting in the States. What you say about "thinking forward" is what I call forward _intent_, as compared to forward _pressure_. Our WT is usually trained with light forward pressure.


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## Martial D (May 23, 2017)

We always trained light pressure, but not always forward. If his pressure is forward, mine will retreat. Not straight back but slightly diagonal and back. If his energy retreats, I follow, either straight in and through or again, slightly diagonal. Feeling where the energy is was key.

Bruce used to make us fall flat on our faces by luring us in and doing a shift/lop even when we knew it was coming. Learning to read energy intent was probably the single most useful skill wc gave me.


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## DanT (May 23, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Those are some solid questions.
> 
> The t step was described to me as when stepping to bring the heel back to the center of the back foot(I think as a transition) making a T.
> 
> ...


Dragging step is usually called Toh Bo in most southern systems I've studied.


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