# An Issue of Validity ??



## jtweymo (Feb 22, 2009)

Have a look at this page here
it takes a little bit of reading.

What's you guys opinion on this subject?


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 23, 2009)

Tinfoil Hat Brigade.

In any case, my dojo's Okinawan style (Isshinryu) is and was taught by a man who was trained by two of Master Shimabuku's students, one of whom is still alive.  There were not two different Tatsuo Shimabuku's.  He inspected and approved of the methods and kata taught by my Sensei's masters, and thereofore it is the 'real thing'.  Not that it matters much what anyone else thinks of that.


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## jtweymo (Feb 23, 2009)

> Bill Mattocks said:   Tinfoil Hat Brigade.
> 
> In any case, my dojo's Okinawan style (Isshinryu) is and was taught by a man who was trained by two of Master Shimabuku's students, one of whom is still alive. There were not two different Tatsuo Shimabuku's. He inspected and approved of the methods and kata taught by my Sensei's masters, and thereofore it is the 'real thing'. Not that it matters much what anyone else thinks of that.


 
Actually that's a very good point (the bit about approved instruction by a recognized headmaster.) LOTS OF THESE SCHOOLS GO THAT ROUTE. And it's a valid instruction.

However there's another interesting fact. I'm not sure which ones are and are not... but very very few Okinawan or Japanese karate ryuha are koryu. SO PRETTY MUCH ALL KARATE RYUHA are the same time of gendai ryuha that page was talking about. Karate schools are the most common form of these gendai ryuha.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 23, 2009)

jtweymo said:


> Actually that's a very good point (the bit about approved instruction by a recognized headmaster.) LOTS OF THESE SCHOOLS GO THAT ROUTE. And it's a valid instruction.
> 
> However there's another interesting fact. I'm not sure which ones are and are not... but very very few Okinawan or Japanese karate ryuha are koryu. SO PRETTY MUCH ALL KARATE RYUHA are the same time of gendai ryuha that page was talking about. Karate schools are the most common form of these gendai ryuha.



If I understand the point of the website you pointed to correctly, his or her entire rant was devoted to pointing out that there are martial arts that were developed prior to the Meiji Restoration and those that were developed afterward. Gendai bud&#333; (&#29694;&#20195;&#27494;&#36947 being post-Meiji Restoration and Kory&#363; (&#21476;&#27969 being pre-Meiji Restoration.  That being the case, Isshinryu is most definitely Gendai budo.  So what?  I don't care.  Do you care?  Does anyone care?

I can't imagine why anyone would care, other than for a historical perspective.  The author of the web page seems to imagine a culture of martial artists in Japan looking down their noses at Western martial artists, whom they imagine to be learning an 'inferior' form of martial arts, and the author assures us that this is not the case.

I don't suffer from the fear that others don't find my martial arts valid.  I don't care.  And I've never run into anyone who has told me any such thing.

Karate, as far as I can tell, came to Japan from Okinawa, and Okinawa had it from Southern China, and it is all Gendai Budo.  It does not bother me - I set out to become a student of Karate, specifically Isshinryu, not 'authentic Japanese' martial arts.  What I'm into is self-defense training.  What I'm not into is silly games about what martial art is more authentic than another.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 23, 2009)

Yeah I honestly don't see the point of whatever that person is writing about, but there are little sources cited and it is written in a very amaturish style. When it comes to the koryu/gendai thing: I'm with Bill.

Who cares? If a martial works, who cares how old it is? Overall the content didn't seem that relevant to me.


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## Kreth (Feb 23, 2009)

Anyone notice a pattern between the posting style ON THAT WEBSITE and somewhere else you may have seen a similar style VERY RECENTLY? :idunno:


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## Andrew Green (Feb 24, 2009)

First thought - good God, at least use a consistent font size in a document...

Second - Why on earth is he trying to mimic an academic study in format, when it doesn't read like one at all and has no references...

It felt like he had an agenda, and I think this paragraph proves that:


> When we are told by a dojo operator or martial artist that they practice or teach &#8220;Shint&#333; y&#333;shin ry&#363;&#8221;, we have an amazing tendency to automatically assume and claim that somehow the martial art is not really Shint&#333; y&#333;shin ry&#363; but was instead concocted by the dojo operator himself or by his instructor since &#8220;..._everyone knows that Shint&#333; y&#333;shin ry&#363; is an extinct school of jujutsu..._


as his style is "*Shinden Yoshin Ryu*"




Bill Mattocks said:


> The author of the web page seems to imagine a culture of martial artists in Japan looking down their noses at Western martial artists, whom they imagine to be learning an 'inferior' form of martial arts, and the author assures us that this is not the case.



This is just my personal take, but very often it seems that people that hold that sort of view are doing inferior martial arts, and they realize it.  But rather then trying to improve they deny that anyone accessible to them is doing any better, and that Japan (or China, Korea, etc) is the true home of the real stuff, and their style is close... so very close... to being the same, they just need someone to tell them the secret decryption key to what they have been practicing and they will become a true master.

Basically a big case of "grass is greener..."

The truth is martial arts exist everywhere, and there is great martial arts all over the world.  With the world becoming smaller and information becoming more available I'd say that the state of martial arts now is likely far better then it was 200 years ago.


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## Steve (Feb 24, 2009)

I do think it's healthy for people to understand that what we train in and study today is seldom older than 150 years with tenuous ties prior to that point.  

Ultimately, though, it seems that this would only be a bad thing to those individuals who identify perhaps a bit too strongly with the samurai and want to in some way connect to ancient Japan (or similarly insert "monk" and ancient China).


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## jtweymo (Feb 24, 2009)

> stevebjj said:
> I do think it's healthy for people to understand that what we train in and study today is seldom older than 150 years with tenuous ties prior to that point.
> 
> Ultimately, though, it seems that this would only be a bad thing to those individuals who identify perhaps a bit too strongly with the samurai and want to in some way connect to ancient Japan (or similarly insert "monk" and ancient China).


 

That was my intent when I wrote the page linked above, reminding that many schools are modern era but are still perfectly valid. To point out that there were currently these types of gendai jujutsu schools all over Japan. 

And that they are valid schools of martial arts. Validity (as a martial art) was the issue, which is why I entitled the thread "an Issue of Validity". Strangely enuf, lots of folks insist that such jujutsu schools are somehow not valid. Not authentic or legit. What they are is actual gendai schools.

To Karateka it ain't very relevant (as far as some would be concerned.) Karateka are sort of used to the whole thing anyway. Jujutsu practitioners however, we get it all the time.

Anyway, the guys posting above are kinda right... the whole subject is really very mundane and not very big a deal. After all, it's only garden variety judo, jujutsu and karate. Much to-do about nothing?


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## jtweymo (Feb 24, 2009)

Oh and BTW, for the record, the subject of the linked page above is not coincidental to the fact that my school of jujutsu is Shinden yoshin ryu...

I openly admit that our school came from the same gendai school(s) mentioned in the text... lots of American and British jujutsu schools bearing "Yoshin" in the name do.

What nobody was sure of (about our school) was if the "Takagi ryu" or the "Shinto yoshin ryu" form of that gendai school was the origin?? Then again, it's all the same gendai ryuha anyway, going by like 15 different names. 

It's no coincidence, it's the same school!


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## Nolerama (Feb 24, 2009)

Does any of that really matter? I mean, we're not talking baseball trading cards or comic books.

Those require a high level of "validity" and "authenticity" because people in that community find value and are willing to exchange money for those items.

Why would you apply that kind of logic to the MA's?


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 24, 2009)

It is a fact  that most "legitimate" martial arts that have techniques that work are all somehow linked to older martial arts of the past. After all, the techniques have to come from somewhere.

Take daito ryu for example, that martial art is not really that old, but Takeda-sensei claimed the art could trace its orgins back to the gempei wars. Whether or not this is true doesn't really matter since Takeda had to learn his techniques from somewhere which were likely passed on to him by peole who would likely have been connected to the older koryu schools.

At least that's what I believe.

so in the end koryu or gendai; it doesn't matter. In the end all that matters is if you can make it work.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 24, 2009)

If some maroon throws a punch at me in a bar and I block it and knock him down with a johnny-come-lately technique, he can say _"That's not an authentic move,"_ all he wants.  I'm standing, he's on his ***.  Authentically.


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## jtweymo (Feb 24, 2009)

> Bill MattocksIf some maroon throws a punch at me in a bar and I block it and knock him down with a johnny-come-lately technique, he can say _"That's not an authentic move,"_ all he wants. I'm standing, he's on his ***. Authentically.


 

Ha ha ha... that's a fine point indeed! You're (all) right of course. Reality is that none of it's really important.





> Himura Kenshin   It is a fact that most "legitimate" martial arts that have techniques that work are all somehow linked to older martial arts of the past. After all, the techniques have to come from somewhere.
> 
> Take daito ryu for example, that martial art is not really that old, but Takeda-sensei claimed the art could trace its orgins back to the gempei wars. Whether or not this is true doesn't really matter since Takeda had to learn his techniques from somewhere which were likely passed on to him by people who would likely have been connected to the older koryu schools.
> 
> ...


 

Good one, the Takeda Daito Ryu is a famous example of (an older) gendai of similar type. It usually gets glossed over as such. I had only been pointing out (in that page) that such examples exist and are common (Daito ryu is a very good example of the same thing on a larger scale.)




> Nolerama   Does any of that really matter? I mean, we're not talking baseball trading cards or comic books.
> 
> Those require a high level of "validity" and "authenticity" because people in that community find value and are willing to exchange money for those items.
> 
> Why would you apply that kind of logic to the MA's?


 
No, you're right, of course. I never really understood why we bicker over this sort of thing. But still we do... sometimes.

You're right though, it's very much pointless to even care about it.

I only posted the page because of common trends to dissect validity (of such jujutsu schools in general.) 

Any martial art is generally valid.

And it all really is nothing but garden variety Judo, jujutsu and karate... no matter how one hashes it out.


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## pgsmith (Feb 24, 2009)

> What's you guys opinion on this subject?


 Since you asked, my opinion is that it was written by someone with no connection to the koryu, that doesn't understand what they are or how they work, but desperately wants to call himself part of it. I've never quite understood some people's fascination with wanting to be _seen_ as a koryu without actually having to _be_ a koryu. I figure it has to do with the fact that most people's preconceptions about the koryu arts are wrong. Most see the koryu as just another martial art school, like Muay Thai or Tae Kwon Do. These folks almost always say things like "this school over here seems much more realistic", or "that wouldn't get you anywhere if you had to get in the ring with it", or "my illegitimate art would wipe the floor with your legitimacy!" These statements are all true in a sense, since there are good and poor practitioners of any arts. The statement that isn't true is that the koryu are simply another martial art. To understand the koryu, it requires a little bit of Japanese history, which the vast majority of folks simply aren't interested in. However, I'll give the quick synopsis so some of you can make it through without snoring on your keyboards!  

The Japanese during the samurai era (approx. 800 to 1868 A.D) were divided up into various family and extended family "houses". They all developed martial arts to a fairly high degree because, for the thousand years of their existence, fighting was their main job and purpose. These arts were handed down through each family, and jealously guarded from outsiders because they may be called upon to use them against those outsiders at any time. After Japan was unified under the Tokugawa shogunate around 1600, wars were outlawed, many of the prominent samurai families were no longer in existence, and many samurai found themselves out of a job. Quite a number moved to the cities and began teaching their family arts as a living. Many of these schools became quite large and spawned branches in other cities, but they were each controlled by the head of the school. The content and methodology was strictly controlled, and the school was handed down to a successor. Over the intervening years, many of these schools have died out as no _qualified_ successor was able to carry on the school. However, there are still a number of these schools in existence today, and they are known collectively as the koryu. 

The koryu is not a manner of teaching, or any specific technique. Depending upon the strength and abilities of past heads of the school, they may not even be teaching particularly viable techniques anymore. What they _are_ teaching is the same thing that they were taught in the same manner that they were taught. And that should be the same thing that their teacher was taught, on back to the founder. There are lineages and records (the Japanese tended to be a bit anal about records) of everything except the techniques themselves, since they tended to be pretty jealous about sharing the inner workings. Students study and practice the koryu NOT to learn self-defense. There are any number of good self-defense arts easily available. Students practice the koryu to be connected with the history. They want to hear the stories that have been handed down, hear about why things were done this way instead of that. Learn the techniques that were developed back when swords were the weapons used against each other. They wish to try and ensure that this succession of teacher to student continues for another three or four hundred years. 

Now, all of that being said, I go back to my original statement. I don't really understand why some people get so hung up on the koryu. There are more effective martial arts. There are arts that aren't nearly as particular about all the details (does it really matter which foot you step onto the mat with?). As long as you're training hard and like what you get out of it, it's all good. And yet, some folks just aren't satisfied with that, they want to be something more. That's the part that I don't get. If you want to be a part of a koryu school (must have something missing upstairs!) then you have to apply and join an existing koryu school. That's the only way.

  Sorry about the long ramble, but you did ask!


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## Kreth (Feb 24, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> If some maroon throws a punch at me in a bar and I block it and knock him down with a johnny-come-lately technique, he can say _"That's not an authentic move,"_ all he wants.  I'm standing, he's on his ***.  Authentically.


Except that there really aren't any new moves, just slick new ways of marketing them. Which I think is why I think a lot of the TMA guys (and ladies) just roll their eyes when they hear about someone breaking away from a system to "improve" it as combat this or reality-based that.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 24, 2009)

Kreth said:


> Except that there really aren't any new moves, just slick new ways of marketing them. Which I think is why I think a lot of the TMA guys (and ladies) just roll their eyes when they hear about someone breaking away from a system to "improve" it as combat this or reality-based that.



Old or new, knocked down is knocked down.  That was my only point.  I don't care where the block came from that my sensei teaches me, or the counter for a punch.  If I used it and it works to defend my fat butt, then I'm a happy camper.  You can call it _'old-style ancient Chinese sekrit and this time we really mean it'_, or you can call it _'Bob's your uncle punch-em-up'_ and it all means exactly the same to me - a way to defend myself.

Authentic?  I authentically kick bad guy's ****.  That's as authentic as I care about.


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## Kreth (Feb 24, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Old or new, knocked down is knocked down.  That was my only point.  I don't care where the block came from that my sensei teaches me, or the counter for a punch.  If I used it and it works to defend my fat butt, then I'm a happy camper.  You can call it _'old-style ancient Chinese sekrit and this time we really mean it'_, or you can call it _'Bob's your uncle punch-em-up'_ and it all means exactly the same to me - a way to defend myself.
> 
> Authentic?  I authentically kick bad guy's ****.  That's as authentic as I care about.


Yeah, I was pretty much agreeing with you on that. I was just pointing out that TMA doesn't need to be reinvented. Most people doing so have a limited understanding of the art they're trying to "improve."
I don't think I ever learned this in a dojo, but once when I was bouncing, a guy started some ****, and didn't want to leave when asked. So I grabbed a handful of his crotch, and told him that me and his balls were going outside. It was up to him if he wanted to come along.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 24, 2009)

Kreth said:


> Yeah, I was pretty much agreeing with you on that. I was just pointing out that TMA doesn't need to be reinvented. Most people doing so have a limited understanding of the art they're trying to "improve."
> I don't think I ever learned this in a dojo, but once when I was bouncing, a guy started some ****, and didn't want to leave when asked. So I grabbed a handful of his crotch, and told him that me and his balls were going outside. It was up to him if he wanted to come along.



Authentic!

:asian:


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## Saitama Steve (Feb 24, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Old or new, knocked down is knocked down. That was my only point. I don't care where the block came from that my sensei teaches me, or the counter for a punch. If I used it and it works to defend my fat butt, then I'm a happy camper. You can call it _'old-style ancient Chinese sekrit and this time we really mean it'_, or you can call it _'Bob's your uncle punch-em-up'_ and it all means exactly the same to me - a way to defend myself.
> 
> Authentic? I authentically kick bad guy's ****. That's as authentic as I care about.


 
Amen!


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## Cirdan (Feb 25, 2009)

Are people really so hung up on the Koryu? I doubt 1 in 20 of the guys I train Karate and JJ with have even heard of the trem. Those that do either have a genuine intrest in history, are experienced enough to be secure in their art or train in one of the Koryu themselves.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 25, 2009)

Hi,

You know, when I read the link, what came across to me was someone who trains in a system named very closely to a Koryu system, without actually having experience or ties to one, has used this as a marketing tool, and had to explain the  discrepancies once too often. This has lead to the article, which basically says "no, we're not Koryu, we may market ourselves like it, and name ourselves like one, but we're not one (so don't get angry when you find out you're not training one)... but to make you feel better about being mislead, other people do it too!", but fails to actually give any true evidence. It only states names of modern schools with the same names as Koryu systems (I might say I've never heard of the Gendai versions...), with no evidence other than itself - and self-referencing evidence is highly suspect at best.

As for "Why do we care?", well, maybe you don't. It all depends on what you're training for. If you're training for modern self defence, you would probably be better off with something very different. If your interest is historical, then you've probably found your match. But as for one type of Martial system being more "legitimate" than another (Koryu or Gendai), thats a completely different question. And in that regard, I would simply say that any true martial art (and I'll explain that term in a second) is as legitimate as any other. 

The issue here is Modern systems passing themselvs off as Koryu, whether deliberately or incidentally. A number of Koryu systms in Japan are classed as National Treasures, including The Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, which is one of the names attributed to a "modern" school in the article. The Katori Shinto Ryu is considered to be one of, if not the oldest extant Martial System in Japan, and to be using it's name is the equivalent of selling your pencil scratchings under the name Picasso. Oh, no, not THAT Picasso, it's just the name I use when I draw (?).

A "true" martial art, I said I would get back to this, didn't I? One of the defining characteristics of a true martial art, and one of the things that seperates each of them out from each other, is that they have a complete underlying philosophical base. Quite a number of Modern systems simply take a bit of boxing for hands, some kicks from Muay Thai, or Tae Kwon Do, maybe a few throws from Judo, or some submission from BJJ, and attempt to hold it all together despite the fact that each different art has it's own philosophy, which may or may not work well with the other arts. Often they are started by an individual who can put it together, mainly because they have their own philosophy which they use as a corner-stone for everything they do, but have a harder time conveying it to students. Some can, and eventually it may become a true art. Hopefully it will, but that is rare.

So that's where the "Issue of validity" comes into it. An attempt to give validity to modern systems by naming them after, or close to, respected older arts, when they may or may not actually have a connection at all. And that is completely invalid.

Oh, and Kreth, check Kin Kudaki in the older version of Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki. Maybe you did learn it somewhere...


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 25, 2009)

Chris Parker said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> Oh, no, not THAT Picasso, it's just the name I use when I draw .


 
kind of reminds us of a certain tire fliping individual, doesn't it?



Chris Parker said:


> Quite a number of Modern systems simply take a bit of boxing for hands, some kicks from Muay Thai, or Tae Kwon Do, maybe a few throws from Judo, or some submission from BJJ, and attempt to hold it all together despite the fact that each different art has it's own philosophy, which may or may not work well with the other arts. Often they are started by an individual who can put it together, mainly because they have their own philosophy which they use as a corner-stone for everything they do, but have a harder time conveying it to students. Some can, and eventually it may become a true art. Hopefully it will, but that is rare.


 
My thoughts exactly! How many times have you heard of a guy who dabbles in one art for a while then switches to another, and tries to combine what he has learned to make a new art. It's like learning a little bit about electrical wiring, a little bit about roofing, and a little bit about plubing and then trying to start your own construction company!


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## jtweymo (Feb 25, 2009)

> PGSmith said:  Since you asked, my opinion is that it was written by someone with no connection to the koryu, that doesn't understand what they are or how they work, but desperately wants to call himself part of it. I've never quite understood some people's fascination with wanting to be _seen_ as a koryu without actually having to _be_ a koryu.


 
Hi ya guys, and you to PGSmith !!

Actually my reply here addresses the sentiment that PGSmith expresssed in the quote above, I noticed a lot of the posters seemed to be expressing it. 

So when I say this, it's just a reply (not a *****, mind ya!)

First off, as indicated both on that page and here in the thread I WROTE THAT PAGE. I was soliciting response to the subject by posting a link to it here. Just to clarify the subject, my signature is at the bottom of the page and my user name is the same: "jtweymo". Just so we are clear about that one!  

I can understand why folks might make an immediate mistake of thinking some koryu connection was being claimed, themselves, have koryu fascination (nothing wrong with it, good historical schools are worth their weight in gold, so to speak). But the page in question (and indeed, all our material) clearly specifies "gendai from gendai". That's the entire theme.


The point was very much that gendai of this order are very common in and outside of Japan. These schools (and our own, which coincidentally is of the exact same origin, a gendai dojo of that very same gendai ryuha taught under the name Shinden yoshin ryu back in the 1960's) these schools never claim to be koryu or koryu related. The Japanese never ever have a problem with this fact, it's common knowledge to them.

The page was pointing out this Yamato yoshin ryu, Jujutsu as an example of that very same theme. 

And pointing out that, under these social conditions, any person who goes to Japan and learns Yamato yoshin ryu, Jujutsu then returns and opens dojos here is subject to the same sentiments and disbelief. 

That was sort of the point.

I was trying to point this out and say "What if someone brings this Yamato yoshin ryu, Jujutsu to our country... are we gonna say these things about the Yamato yoshin ryu people?!?"

Eventually, American and British people will probably pick up this Yamato yoshin ryu. Are we going to say... "they are koryu wanna be people"??

It's more than a little insultuous. What if Yamato yoshin ryu comes here and receives this mistreatment?


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## Kreth (Feb 25, 2009)

jtweymo said:


> First off, as indicated both on that page and here in the thread I WROTE THAT PAGE. I was soliciting response to the subject by posting a link to it here. Just to clarify the subject, my signature is at the bottom of the page and my user name is the same: "jtweymo". Just so we are clear about that one!


Actually, you made no such claim until I hinted that it was your page...


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## jtweymo (Feb 25, 2009)

Oh darn, I just noticed some of you posting are X-kan people.

You are not considering the subject very well. Go and look at your own X-kan webpages that have most recently begun to post info about Yamato yoshin ryu. 

Didn't you notice that the Genbukan makes prolific mention of the same ryuha mentioned on the page in question (Hontai yoshin takagi ryu)??

As is often recognized the X-kan schools are not listed as koryu.

The gendai ryuha listed on that page is Hontai yoshin takagi ryu and goes under a proliferation of names that you ought to recognize because the X-kans use all of them in their kans: Takagi ryu, Takagi yoshin ryu, Hontai takagi yoshin ryu, kukishin ryu and so forth. 

Even Hatsumi and Tanemura (I mention them respectfully mind you) admit that these are all pretty much the same school, gendai, going by different names. And that they aren't the only ones in Japan who practice or hold these gendai ryuha, they openly admit that many many instructors of this/these gendai schools exist in Japan.

The X-kan forums speak of the same subject and even mention other non-X-kan instructors in Japan who teach and hold these ryuha...

The X-kan pages have already picked up Yamato yoshin ryu: Bujinkan Lincoln Dojo website here, at the bottom of the page:  http://www.hanako.co.uk/History/Ryu-Connections.htm

They did so because the Yamato yoshin ryu comes from the same strain of gendai ryuha that gave the X-kan it's Takagi yoshin ryu, Hontai takagi yoshin ryu, Kukishin(-den) ryu and so forth.

They are all renamings of the same school.


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## jtweymo (Feb 25, 2009)

> Kreth said:  Actually, you made no such claim until I hinted that it was your page...


 
Hi ya Kreth,

Why did you say that?

The page is clearly signed at the bottom "jtweymo" and the web address is "http://jtweymo.angelfire.com/GENDAI_CORDING.html" and my user name is "jtweymo"... it couldn't have been more clearly marked.

It isn't very correct to imply that I attempted to conceal my identity.. it's marked from head to foot "jtweymo".

Why did you say that?


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## Kreth (Feb 25, 2009)

jtweymo said:


> Hi ya Kreth,
> 
> Why did you say that?
> 
> ...



I said it because your OP was phrased as if this was some random page you found:


jtweymo said:


> Have a look at this page here
> it takes a little bit of reading.
> 
> What's you guys opinion on this subject?


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## jtweymo (Feb 25, 2009)

Hi ya Kreth,

Uhm. Kreth? Every one of you who quoted me began your quote with...



> Originally Posted by *jtweymo*


 
nice bold type font on "jtweymo" and everything.

The page indicated was signed "jtweymo" quite clearly at the bottom.
The web address has "jtweymo" quite clearly in it.

My username is "jtweymo" the whole thing was clearly marked "jtweymo" from head to foot.

I guess if someobody failed to read the signature at the bottom of the page and/or failed to check out what web address the page was at... they might have missed the fact that I wrote the page linked to. 

But I tried to make it quite clear... my second post in the thread (after the introductory) specified: "That was my intent when I wrote the page linked above..."

You're implying that I tried to conceal the fact that I wrote the page in question... when the darned thing is clearly marked from head foot foot, on a website that has "jtweymo" written all over it!!

Come on, that don't hold water. Why badger me?


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## Kreth (Feb 25, 2009)

jtweymo said:


> But I tried to make it quite clear... my second post in the thread (after the introductory) specified: "That was my intent when I wrote the page linked above..."


Actually, it was your third, shortly after my post hinting that you were the author of the web page in question.



> You're implying that I tried to conceal the fact that I wrote the page in question... when the darned thing is clearly marked from head foot foot, on a website that has "jtweymo" written all over it!!
> 
> Come on, that don't hold water. Why badger me?


Not everyone reads the URL when they click a link (or else phishing sites wouldn't be so successful). I would also guess that many people gave up on the page well before the bottom, as the poor formatting and overuse of caps made it annoying to read.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 25, 2009)

Ok, now I'm a little confused.

when you said this : "As is often recognized the X-kan schools are not listed as koryu" doesn't thant ignore the fact the arts are stemmed from koryu, or am I mistaken.

When it comes to martial arts history I'm very interested, so if anyone has anything to say about this I'd like to hear it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

on a different note, Kreth is right when he says that putting things in caps makes it hard to read. It gives the impression that you're yelling at the reader. I would also suggest leaving out comments like "everyone knows" or "it's common knowledge" because the material you are discussing isn't common knowledge and if it were, you wouldn't have to mention it.


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## pgsmith (Feb 25, 2009)

> The point was very much that gendai of this order are very common in and outside of Japan. These schools (and our own, which coincidentally is of the exact same origin, a gendai dojo of that very same gendai ryuha taught under the name Shinden yoshin ryu back in the 1960's) these schools never claim to be koryu or koryu related. The Japanese never ever have a problem with this fact, it's common knowledge to them.


You see, this is where part of your confusion grows. Not having much (if any?) contact with actual Japanese within your "Japanese" martial art, you fail to understand that to the Japanese, ignoring something is *not* the same as having no problem with it. There are a number of schools with names that coincide with those of existing koryu. Most of these are outside of Japan (like yours), although there are some in Japan itself. Most of these came about from a Japanese native that had some experience in a school without having been granted the authority to teach and open a branch of that school. They gathered some students and taught what they knew. Eventually they left, and there's a school with senior students practicing what they've been taught under a particular name, but no connection to the actual source of said name. Occassionally (but far more rare) are those instances where a westerner has lived in Japan for a number of years, and learned an art there. He then started teaching it upon his return home, again without authority or connection to the original art. These schools are pretty much ignored as irrelevant by the heads of the koryu whose names they share. Occassionally there will be issues (such as Fred Lovret's Tenshin ryu) where the head of a koryu group will demand that they cease using the name. Usually though, it's simply ignored. 



> I was trying to point this out and say "What if someone brings this Yamato yoshin ryu, Jujutsu to our country... are we gonna say these things about the Yamato yoshin ryu people?!?"
> 
> Eventually, American and British people will probably pick up this Yamato yoshin ryu. Are we going to say... "they are koryu wanna be people"??
> 
> It's more than a little insultuous. What if Yamato yoshin ryu comes here and receives this mistreatment?


If someone brings an art here from Japan claiming to teach such and such art under this that or the other instructor, there will definitely be people that question it. However, if said instructor and dojo starter *does* have the authority to open a branch dojo, they will simply show that authority was granted, tell the questioner who to contact for more information, and that will be that. Believe it or not, it happens a lot. The vast majority of folks involved in the Japanese arts have full authority by the home dojo to teach what they do, and no problems answering questions about it. And, there will always be people that don't entirely believe those answers for whatever reason. It doesn't really matter that much to the person running the dojo. They have their authority from their own instructor, and what others think is pretty much irrelevant (that's a very Japanese way of thinking as I stated earlier).

What I have to ask Mr. Weymo, is why is this such an issue to you that you have to write articles about it, and then post it here to bring attention to it?


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## jtweymo (Feb 25, 2009)

Hi ya guys,

Kreth... I dunno what else to say to you. But okay.



> Himura Kenshin said:  Ok, now I'm a little confused.
> 
> when you said this : "As is often recognized the X-kan schools are not listed as koryu" doesn't thant ignore the fact the arts are stemmed from koryu, or am I mistaken.
> 
> ...


 
Oh I apologize, I wasn't trying to imply less validity to the X-kans. And frankly I defer to whatever those X-kan headmasters would say... I've never heard them imply anything not generally legit. They themselves openly acknowledge that their schools and instruction is not koryu, that it's gendai. But yes, as a genre of martial arts there's relationship to the sources of the koryu schools -- in short, it's a difficult subject since one could say that the koryu are the source, or that the koryu come from the same source. It's subjective to state either way. The remark is identical but presented from two different perspectives.

Oh and on the subject of my writing style... I admit I'm not exactly up on the ultra modern methodologies. I read one of the earlier posters claimed I was using an academic format... no I didn't. It's not a point of contention but some such remarks I find confusing. I will however try to adjust my formatting in the future. However, on the subject of common knowledge... it is and always was. I've been reading on the subject for about 30 years, it was introduced to me by both my martial arts instructors and common martial arts buddies. My point is that it's being properly labeled.  




> PGSmith said:  You see, this is where part of your confusion grows. Not having much (if any?) contact with actual Japanese within your "Japanese" martial art, you fail to understand that to the Japanese, ignoring something is *not* the same as having no problem with it. There are a number of schools with names that coincide with those of existing koryu. Most of these are outside of Japan (like yours), although there are some in Japan itself. Most of these came about from a Japanese native that had some experience in a school without having been granted the authority to teach and open a branch of that school. They gathered some students and taught what they knew. Eventually they left, and there's a school with senior students practicing what they've been taught under a particular name, but no connection to the actual source of said name. Occassionally (but far more rare) are those instances where a westerner has lived in Japan for a number of years, and learned an art there. He then started teaching it upon his return home, again without authority or connection to the original art. These schools are pretty much ignored as irrelevant by the heads of the koryu whose names they share. Occassionally there will be issues (such as Fred Lovret's Tenshin ryu) where the head of a koryu group will demand that they cease using the name. Usually though, it's simply ignored.


 

Okay PGSmith, I agree with literally everything you stated in this remark since it's the case most definitetly... but the intro of the remark was way of base (through no fault of your own, other than by lack of familiarity with myself.) I'm not confused on any of these subjects. I don't understand why you imply that there's any confusion on my part. This is just a discussion thread on a limited subject. I'm 46 years old and been studying this school for about 30 years now, started when I was 13 years old. Been practicing it's techniques since I was that age. And what do you mean by a lack of Japanese contact in my 'Japanese' art? Sir, when I was being trained, we had the occassional summer camp and sometimes there were a few Japanese (some identified themselves as judoka, and one or two Okinawan karateka besides -- shorin ryu and isshin ryu. Our summer camps were used to cross train inas well.) 
Sometimes they're were Japanese Americans present relatives of the visiting Japanese nationals. It was rare and it was years ago back when I was a kid but it wasn't that unusual?? We used to have pictures of us in group with some of the visiting Japanese. Now don't get me wrong, our school wasn't that organized (it was no big deal mind ya) and I ain't making no special claims here... but we used to get material straight outta Japan all the time: I was the guy who did the translating... so I oughtta know! I dunno what you mean by my being confused, and we didn't particularly lack for Japanese contact. I spent way too many hours doing the translations and not getting paid very much. 

But okay.

Otherwise certainly, your remarks on school and instruction customs were right on the money.




> PGSmith also said:  What I have to ask Mr. Weymo, is why is this such an issue to you that you have to write articles about it, and then post it here to bring attention to it?


 
Uh-huh. Hmm... I dunno if I'd call it an issue? It's just a little too commonly encountered as a line of contest. Do you understand that the article was about Yamato yoshin ryu? Not about me? About the subject in general? 

I posted here for exactly what the inquiry indicated: to solicit the opinion of the guys on this board.

But I get the impression that your inquiry is less of an inquiry and more of an insinuation. Such insinuations are unnecessary. Need I point out that you fellas don't really know me, and don't have any clue what our school practices are?

How can ya make insinuations about what ya don't know.

Before going to such lengths (if ya are, PG, if not: my apologies indeed, sir) I'd better point out that my school and instruction practices aren't anything to complain about. What I mean is that our profile and involvement levels aren't and never were very commercialized. We get this alot, standard jabs against conduct that is presumed without any knowledge or recognition of what conduct does exist on our parts.

Maybe such insinuations aren't effective because we aren't involved in what gets implied. For example, I've been told to stop claiming that we teach a koryu related art when we don't. The persons making these remarks don't know us or our school or our levels of interaction -- so immediately they end up making a demand that we couldn't comply with if we wanted to.

All we can do is attempt to explain their mistaken impression.

Do you get my drift?

Again PGSmith, if I am wrong here about the matter, forgive me.

I didn't mean to accuse you of anything.


----------



## pgsmith (Feb 25, 2009)

> ... but the intro of the remark was way of base (through no fault of your own, other than by lack of familiarity with myself.)


In that case, I sincerely apologize. I got the impression from your article that your school was only found in the west (U.S.A. ?), and had no actual Japanese hombu or higher level instructors to further your training. Since that's not the case, where is your hombu dojo located?


> And what do you mean by a lack of Japanese contact in my 'Japanese' art? Sir, when I was being trained, we had the occassional summer camp and sometimes there were a few Japanese (some identified themselves as judoka, and one or two Okinawan karateka besides -- shorin ryu and isshin ryu. Our summer camps were used to cross train inas well.)


I didn't mean that you've never talked or trained with Japanese. I meant that your instructor and the upper level seniors of your school were not Japanese. Since you've just told me that was wrong, I apologize. However, you seem to have some strange ideas, in my opinion, for having trained under the Japanese for 30 years. 


> But I get the impression that your inquiry is less of an inquiry and more of an insinuation. Such insinuations are unnecessary. Need I point out that you fellas don't really know me, and don't have any clue what our school practices are?


And thus we return to my question, which I might add you continue to side-step ... why is it such an issue with you? You're now accusing me of "insinuations"? I've no idea what exactly you're talking about, or what "insinuations" you think I may be making. You are the one that came here asking for opinions. 
Well, here it is ... My opinion, based upon your article, was that you were either head of, or part of, a Japanese named school with Japanese named techniques and no affiliation with any higher organization or upper level instructors *in your school in Japan*. I also felt that you probably *had* no school in Japan that shares your name. You've told me that this was an erroneous assumption on my part, for which I apologized. What the story behind your school happens to be, whether your techniques are devastatingly effective or merely dancing, how much being in your school has enriched your life, these are all questions of which I neither have nor want, truth to tell, any knowledge. 

The only thing I asked was why it mattered to you what other people thought? You seem to have gone to great lengths to "defend" yourself even though I've not been able to locate a single attacker.


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## jtweymo (Feb 25, 2009)

Actually PGSmith...

I had entered a rather lengthily reply. The machine ate it and it got lost in the hash.

I started to re-enter the thing and thought better of it.

You say no insinuation whilst you then post that monstrosity?


Ask yourself this question:  If one can keep silent and watch another stumble into error... what should you do?

I'll keep quiet and see if the other stumbles.


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## Saitama Steve (Feb 25, 2009)

Where are the insinuations in that so-called monstrosity? Point them out. 

All I saw was logical debate.


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## MarkBarlow (Feb 25, 2009)

No one (that I'm aware of)  bought in to your initial arguments from the earlier post.  Why rehash it now?  If you're happy with your own particular creation myth, why must you keep trying to convince us?


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## jtweymo (Feb 25, 2009)

Hello all,



> Saitama steve said: Where are the insinuations in that so-called monstrosity? Point them out.
> 
> All I saw was logical debate.


 

Uh-huh, you saw what you wanted to. We both know it.

But okay, I'm game... for the moment.

And only for the moment but you musn't forget the page linked to this thread and what the thread subject is (my behavior makes perfect sense given the thread and the previous posts already made...)


The following from PGSmith's post:


> ...However, you seem to have some strange ideas, in my opinion, for having trained under the Japanese for 30 years...


 
I never claimed to have trained under the Japanese for 30 years, only he said that.



> ...I got the impression from your article that *your school* was only found in the west (U.S.A. ?)...


 
The article in question didn't address me at all, it addressed *Yamato yoshin ryu* and the commonly encountered Japanese gendai ryuha that goes under the various names of Hontai takagi yoshin ryu / Hontai yoshin takagi ryu / Hontai takagi ryu / Takagi hontai ryu / Takagi ryu / Yoshin ryu / Shinto yoshin ryu / Shinden yoshin ryu. 



> ...I meant that your instructor and the upper level seniors of your school were not Japanese. *Since you've just told me that was wrong*, I apologize....


 
I never told him that my instructors were Japanese, only he said that. And he knows darned well my instructors were American... so do you, Saitama.



> ...My opinion, based upon your article, was that you were either head of, or part of, a Japanese named school with Japanese named techniques and no affiliation with any higher organization or upper level instructors *in your school in Japan*.


 

Again the article was about Yamato yoshin ryu and in no way addressed me. As far as my school of Jujutsu, I am not the head of the Shinden yoshin ryu and have never claimed to be, nor claimed any particular entitlement of any kind to it. Clearly he's leading me, as are you trying to. 






> ...I also felt that you probably *had* no school in Japan that shares your name. You've told me that this was an erroneous assumption on my part, for which I apologized...




This is where I drawn the line and say little more. Sometimes to fall silent and allow someone to stumble, if they do, is more expedient. I'll say this much: my rank and title are definetly American, my instructor was American, my dojo was American... and I never implied otherwise to be quite sure. 
As for whether or not the Shinden yoshin ryu is still in Japan... the article might give a hint there... but of course it goes under a proliferation of names and always has. 


So, you didn't see any insinuations? That's because after he spelled that stuff out, it wasn't an insinuation anymore: it was a direct statement and a bunch of baloney I never said.

I don't give a crap about stuff I never said.

If I didn't say it, it's not my obligation to answer for it.


----------



## Saitama Steve (Feb 25, 2009)

jtweymo said:


> Uh-huh, you saw what you wanted to. We both know it.


 
Actually, he didn't insinuate as you say. You read insinuations into what Mr.Smith wrote.




jtweymo said:


> The article in question didn't address me at all, it addressed *Yamato yoshin ryu* and the commonly encountered Japanese gendai ryuha that goes under the various names of Hontai takagi yoshin ryu / Hontai yoshin takagi ryu / Hontai takagi ryu / Takagi hontai ryu / Takagi ryu / Yoshin ryu / Shinto yoshin ryu / Shinden yoshin ryu.


 
Wait a second. You're mixing lineages yet again, when you know rather well that Yoshin-ryu & Shinto Yoshin-ryu are from the Akiyama Shirobei lines of Yoshin-ryu. 

Takagi-ryu (Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu, Hontai Yoshin-ryu and all other variations on the name,) has lineage from Takagi Umanosuke (Which also means some influence from Takeuchi-ryu.) 

Try not to mix them up. The differences are humungous.

I might have known your instructors were American, but I'm sure Mr.Smith did not. 



jtweymo said:


> Again the article was about Yamato yoshin ryu and in no way addressed me. As far as my school of Jujutsu, I am not the head of the Shinden yoshin ryu and have never claimed to be, nor claimed any particular entitlement of any kind to it. Clearly he's leading me, as are you trying to.


 
OK, so who is the headmaster of Shinden Yoshin-ryu at this point? Where's the hombu dojo?



jtweymo said:


> I don't give a crap about stuff I never said.
> 
> If I didn't say it, it's not my obligation to answer for it.


 
You wrote the article did you not? You asked opinions, yes? Questions were asked. Since it is your article, it is indeed your obligation to answer.


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## jks9199 (Feb 25, 2009)

Folks,
MT has a reputation for being lightly moderated, and friendly.  Our members help keep it that way by reading THE RULES and voluntarily complying with them.  It's really important to remember to debate the issues and not the person.  If you have a problem with a poster, or think that a post has crossed the line and violated one or more of THE RULES, I urge you to make use of the Report To Moderator feature, found at the top right of each post, in a red & white triangular "button."  All tickets thus generated are carefully reviewed by the staff for action.


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## jtweymo (Feb 25, 2009)

Uh-huh.

 Hi ya Saitama (and all others),


I... really shouldn't do this (and I'm not gonna carry it much further, beleive me, fellas.)




> Saitama steve said:  Actually, he didn't insinuate as you say. You read insinuations into what Mr.Smith wrote.


 
Saitama... come on, man. You're outright ignoring the obvious contrary remarks he entered, in my name as if I stated them. For all anyone knew, I might have emailed him or messaged him and made such remarks.

For all anyone knew, I might have emailed him or messaged him and made such remarks.

I never said those things... and once he did, you're right, at that point it wasn't an insinuation anymore.




> Saitama steve said:  Wait a second. You're mixing lineages yet again, when you know rather well that Yoshin-ryu & Shinto Yoshin-ryu are from the Akiyama Shirobei lines of Yoshin-ryu.
> 
> Takagi-ryu (Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu, Hontai Yoshin-ryu and all other variations on the name,) has lineage from Takagi Umanosuke (Which also means some influence from Takeuchi-ryu.)
> 
> Try not to mix them up. The differences are humungous.


 
Okay this is a difficult subject for you fellas and I appreciate that.

Yes, there are koryu descended of the Akiyama lineage. No those lineages do not have any particular entitlement to the ryuha names "shinto yoshin ryu" and "Yoshin ryu" BUT NO DOUBT the Akiyama lineages are more illustrious.

It's not my fault that the common gendai ryuha in question goes by the name 'Yoshin ryu' and 'Shinto yoshin ryu' (despite your perhaps reasonable objections.) It goes by all those names and more! It's not my doing, I am not mixing lineages.

That gendai ryuha is well known on the internet (ugh) due to multiple forms of it going under different names (as per it's usual custom) in the X-kans. Even the X-kanners admit that it has many dojos and instructors in Japan that aren't X-kan affiliates. Even they admit that it goes under the name "Yoshin ryu" and some of them admit that it's sometimes called "Shinto yoshin ryu" in certain dojos. Again, not my fault.

This gendai ryuha is no mystery, not unheard of, it's common knowledge over the internet -- howbeit more popularized among the X-kanners. I don't like referring to them because then my school gets confused as being X-kan or X-kan descended. My own associates from Florida know I ain't and my school ain't, since they knew the names of the kata I practiced all the way back as far as 1976. Point is that we ain't X-kan.




> Saitama steve said:  OK, so who is the headmaster of Shinden Yoshin-ryu at this point? Where's the hombu dojo?


 
Actually Saitama... I have no clue at all? Wish I did.
I know who was teaching it in Osaka when my instructor was studying there back in the 1960's. That the school itself (not necessarily the dojo mind you) still exists in Japan.... that I know for sure. But it sometimes called taught under a few the other names, what it's getting called today is a mystery to me. If not Shinden yoshin ryu, then Yoshin ryu was quite common.

As I have told all of you before: it was being taught in a tiny dojo in Osaka back in the 1960's. It wasn't a big organization, it was a tiny dojo.

You and me both know that not all of these types of gendai ryuha have hombu dojos. Heck, some of them don't actually have a headmaster.

You know that as well as I do, please, don't jive me, okay?



Saitama, I've seen my instructors old photos of both Okinawa and Osaka back in the 1960's... I know he was there. I saw the pictures of his instructors, Judogi and all.

Do you understand what I'm saying to you?


----------



## jtweymo (Feb 25, 2009)

Hello JKS9199,

I hear ya loud and clear, I did not see your message before making that last posting.

If I broke the rules I apologize and will try to avoid doing so in the future.

Again I'm sorry.


----------



## Saitama Steve (Feb 26, 2009)

jtweymo said:


> Uh-huh.
> 
> Saitama... come on, man. You're outright ignoring the obvious contrary remarks he entered, in my name as if I stated them.


 
So now you're insinuating that Mr.Smith has falsely quoted you? 



jtweymo said:


> Okay this is a difficult subject for you fellas and I appreciate that.


 
Again you assume that a lot of us are clueless. Some of us have lived in Japan for extended periods of time and have friends in some of the aforementioned ryuha. In fact, some of us might have actually done Akiyama related ryuha.



jtweymo said:


> Yes, there are koryu descended of the Akiyama lineage. No those lineages do not have any particular entitlement to the ryuha names "shinto yoshin ryu" and "Yoshin ryu" BUT NO DOUBT the Akiyama lineages are more illustrious.


 
No, it's a lineage that even with it's descendant ryuha have certain hallmarks that can be recognized. Nothing about prestige.



jtweymo said:


> It's not my fault that the common gendai ryuha in question goes by the name 'Yoshin ryu' and 'Shinto yoshin ryu' (despite your perhaps reasonable objections.) It goes by all those names and more! It's not my doing, I am not mixing lineages.


 
Yes, there is a gendai called Yoshin-ryu, founded by Kai Kuniyuki,  but it has nothing to do with either Takagi Umanosuke or Akiyama Shirobei. 



jtweymo said:


> That gendai ryuha is well known on the internet (ugh) due to multiple forms of it going under different names (as per it's usual custom) in the X-kans. Even the X-kanners admit that it has many dojos and instructors in Japan that aren't X-kan affiliates. Even they admit that it goes under the name "Yoshin ryu" and some of them admit that it's sometimes called "Shinto yoshin ryu" in certain dojos. Again, not my fault.


 
You are being rather vague here. Are you referring to Tagaki Yoshin-ryu when you mention the X-kan? It's not very clear. I have never heard X-kan exponents mention Takagi Yoshin-ryu refer to it as merely, "Yoshin-ryu" and it's definately never been referred to as "Shinto Yoshin-ryu". 

Shinto Yoshin-ryu is a late Edo jidai koryu bujutsu with influences from two Akiyama lineage jujutsu ryu and two different kenjutsu ryu. It still has exponents in Japan and abroad. 

The Takamatsuden exponents do not do Shinto Yoshin-ryu, nor refer to Takagi Yoshin-ryu as such. 




jtweymo said:


> This gendai ryuha is no mystery, not unheard of, it's common knowledge over the internet -- howbeit more popularized among the X-kanners. I don't like referring to them because then my school gets confused as being X-kan or X-kan descended. My own associates from Florida know I ain't and my school ain't, since they knew the names of the kata I practiced all the way back as far as 1976. Point is that we ain't X-kan.


 
Well that's funny, the mokuroku on your website for Shinden Yoshin-ryu is so close to Bujinkan syllabi, that it's not funny. Even the kata names are identical. Who knew?



jtweymo said:


> I know who was teaching it in Osaka when my instructor was studying there back in the 1960's. That the school itself (not necessarily the dojo mind you) still exists in Japan.... that I know for sure. But it sometimes called taught under a few the other names, what it's getting called today is a mystery to me. If not Shinden yoshin ryu, then Yoshin ryu was quite common.


 
Great, you know the name of your teacher's teacher and the dojo. So where is it in Osaka and what was the name of your teacher's teacher?



jtweymo said:


> You and me both know that not all of these types of gendai ryuha have hombu dojos. Heck, some of them don't actually have a headmaster.
> 
> You know that as well as I do, please, don't jive me, okay?


 
JIVE you? Mister you have a unique world view. 

If there is a gendai out there without a hombu or even a break away group without a hombu, I have never heard of one. 



jtweymo said:


> Saitama, I've seen my instructors old photos of both Okinawa and Osaka back in the 1960's... I know he was there. I saw the pictures of his instructors, Judogi and all.
> 
> Do you understand what I'm saying to you?


 
So you've seen a bunch of photos. How long was you teacher there for? Who was his sensei?


----------



## jtweymo (Feb 26, 2009)

Hi ya Saitama,

Actually, the guy that posted above seems to be a Moderator? 

He don't like the course of the conversation, something about the rules getting broken... I can see where that might be coming into play there, Saitama.

So I'm really gonna curtail my remarks heavily.

If that don't suit ya, that's a drag...


What you're doing is called 'hound dogging' but I'll answer what's reasonable to answer.



> Saitama said:  So now you're insinuating that Mr.Smith has falsely quoted you?


 
No insinuation, direct statement. His remarks posted and the correction entered. I had little choice since somebody may have made the mistake of assuming that I emailed or messaged him with those remarks. I never said those things.



> Saitama said:  Again you assume that a lot of us are clueless. Some of us have lived in Japan for extended periods of time and have friends in some of the aforementioned ryuha. In fact, some of us might have actually done Akiyama related ryuha.


 

No... no... nope. You are now dogging me into a position where I am supposedly insulting the intelligence of the guys on the forum board. As well as insulting their life experiences. No.

You said it, not me.



You're remarks on the Akiyama lineage and the ryuha names in question I will ignore. That is your problem not mine.  Besides, you seem to be talking about koryu and I haven't said a word about any koryu.





> Saitama said:   You are being rather vague here. Are you referring to Tagaki Yoshin-ryu when you mention the X-kan? It's not very clear. I have never heard X-kan exponents mention Takagi Yoshin-ryu refer to it as merely, "Yoshin-ryu" ...


AND


> Saitama said:   Well that's funny, the mokuroku on your website for Shinden Yoshin-ryu is so close to Bujinkan syllabi, that it's not funny. Even the kata names are identical. Who knew?


 
Uh-huh, you oughtta be ashamed of yourself !

Now your implying that my school of jujutsu is X-kan derived ?

I've seen the X-kan mokuroku posted to the net and in several text as well, including copies of the so called "Ninpo Taijutsu: Tenchijin ryaku no maki" and frankly, mister, this remark is baloney. It's loaded with their forms of Gyokko ryu kata, and many many besides that simply do not exist in my school's curriculum. I don't even know what some of that stuff is?

Now your claiming that our mokuroku and theirs is nearly identical !!

Anybody can see that the Takagi yoshin ryu material bears resemblance... but then again it's a yoshin ryu school itself... not particularly surprising. It also bears strong resemblance to darned near every other yoshin school of that type !!  Including the Yamato yoshin ryu (which by the way was the subject of the web page that this thread is supposed to be about !!)

As for what the X-kans do and don't call the takagi yoshin ryu by, their own webpages and forums speak of this subject incessantly. I needn't bother further (in some instances your remarks disagree with theirs.)

The X-kans aren't my business to be talking about (all due respect.)




> Saitama said:   Great, you know the name of your teacher's teacher and the dojo. So where is it in Osaka and what was the name of your teacher's teacher?


  AND 





> JIVE you? Mister you have a unique world view.
> If there is a gendai out there without a hombu or even a break away group without a hombu, I have never heard of one.


 AND 





> So you've seen a bunch of photos. How long was you teacher there for? Who was his sensei?


 
Now you're just being downright rude. I'll answer what's reasonable but I'm fairly sure you already read these remarks on my homepage anyway:

The dojo in Osaka was headed up and taught by *Kimura, Yoshinuri Sensei*, also from Osaka. And no, it wasn't the famous Judoka named Kimura so don't go there, okay? Kimura sensei had two assistants: Nomoto Sensei and Kawabe Sensei. Kimura was not the Founder but had been trained under him -- or possibly by his son or grandson, I dunno for sure? They taught in Osaka from 1946 until 1966. My instructor came back from his tour of duty around 1968 and opened his first dojo back in 1970. I entered the dojo back in 1975-76 at the age of 13 years old (minimum age at the school.) 

And that's as far as I care to continue conversing with ya at this point.

But Saitama ? You fellas are making unecessary accusations and badgering for no reason -- we aren't what you think (heck, I ain't even sure what you think.) I been around the block, chum. Doing the same school of Jujutsu since 1975 with the exact same techniques. Same mokuroku. 

Chum? This is ridiculous and I ain't doing this no more, okay??


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## MarkBarlow (Feb 26, 2009)

jtweymo said:


> Chum? This is ridiculous and I ain't doing this no more, okay??



Best news I've heard all day.


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## jtweymo (Feb 26, 2009)

Heh heh heh... what a hoot.

But it's still a nice jot about the internet...
nice forum we got here.


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## Saitama Steve (Feb 26, 2009)

jtweymo said:


> No... no... nope. You are now dogging me into a position where I am supposedly insulting the intelligence of the guys on the forum board. As well as insulting their life experiences. No.


 
Read into what you wrote. 



jtweymo said:


> Okay this is a difficult subject for you fellas and I appreciate that.


 
As you said, "You said it, not me." There's so much attitude oozing off of that I have to wipe off my screen. 



jtweymo said:


> You're remarks on the Akiyama lineage and the ryuha names in question I will ignore. That is your problem not mine. Besides, you seem to be talking about koryu and I haven't said a word about any koryu.


 
Umm. You're talking about gendai that are connected to koryu via relation. When you mention Hontai Yoshin-ryu, you mention a koryu as you stated earlier on up in the thread. You're still saying you're not talking about koryu? 

Since you have lumped any ryuha with the monicker "Yoshin" into the same pile, regardless of lineage, it's YOUR problem. Since it's your academic mistake. However, you want to ignore and side-step that. 



jtweymo said:


> Uh-huh, you oughtta be ashamed of yourself !
> 
> Now your implying that my school of jujutsu is X-kan derived ?
> 
> ...


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## jtweymo (Feb 26, 2009)

Hello folks,

Well... I could do this but... I'm not gonna.

I will say this much, it's not really very appropriate for you to imply that (Kimura Yoshinuri sensei) is an affeminate name. That's more than a bit of an insult. 

The only other reasonable thing you posted inquiry to was about other practitioners of and references to Shinden yoshin ryu NOT made by me on the internet. It's not all that common to encounter internet references to the school (at this time so far). 

There are some few references to Shinden yoshin ryu on the net and elsewhere (it's usually just mentioned, by name, maybe in a book or perhaps the description of a video about martial arts.) 

There are a few others (members of my instructors school are still around but not in my part of the country.) You gotta remember, I used to train this school with my chums. They know full well we did.  However... if I were them and I saw this kind of blast going on... I'd just cruise right on past it without saying two words. 

And frankly chum... that's where the shenanigans stop.

You got no call for badgering. If you wanted to ask for info, I'd gladly just cough it up. At this point I'm not even sure what you're doing.

Leave me alone, I was reasonable and answered you, now stop badgering me.

Okay Saitama?


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## Saitama Steve (Feb 26, 2009)

jtweymo said:


> Hello folks,
> 
> Well... I could do this but... I'm not gonna.
> 
> I will say this much, it's not really very appropriate for you to imply that (Kimura Yoshinuri sensei) is an affeminate name. That's more than a bit of an insult.


 
No, it's just that Yoshinuri is not a name. Yoshiaki, Yoshinoru or Yoshinari are names in Japanese culture. Yoshinuri is not a name in Japanese culture. 




jtweymo said:


> The only other reasonable thing you posted inquiry to was about other practitioners of and references to Shinden yoshin ryu NOT made by me on the internet. It's not all that common to encounter internet references to the school (at this time so far).


 
But all other references to Shinden Yoshin-ryu on the internet are authored by you. 

Example: 



			
				jtweymo said:
			
		

> Hello, I'm Jtweymo...
> 
> And this is my blog about Shinden y&#333;shin ry&#363;, jujutsu. It's a crappy little gendai school of goshin-jujutsu. Not much really but it does have some nice points (I particularly like the doctrines and teachings myself, they are handy in some respects.)
> 
> ...


 
Mind you all I asked was who else is teaching Shinden Yoshin-ryu besides you. 








jtweymo said:


> There are some few references to Shinden yoshin ryu on the net and elsewhere (it's usually just mentioned, by name, maybe in a book or perhaps the description of a video about martial arts.)


 
None that I have seen in English or Japanese. Again only yours. Like this one, where you falsely claim; "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A YOSHIN SCHOOL THAT ISN'T RELATED TO THE ENTIRE YOSHIN LINEAGE." 

But of course, it's foolish to ask you to cite your claims with sources, since you say on one of your various blogs; "*Before any of you ask me for sources: *please, I tend only to cite common knowledge and as such sources for it are numerous but not always in English."




jtweymo said:


> There are a few others (members of my instructors school are still around but not in my part of the country.) You gotta remember, I used to train this school with my chums. They know full well we did. However... if I were them and I saw this kind of blast going on... I'd just cruise right on past it without saying two words.


 
So where are they? Surely these chums of yours are also teaching Shinden Yoshin-ryu in the USA.


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## MarkBarlow (Feb 26, 2009)

jtweymo said:


> Leave me alone, I was reasonable and answered you, now stop badgering me.
> 
> Okay Saitama?



Again, you opened the discussion and when it doesn't go the way you want, you accuse others of badgering or misquoting you.  I haven't heard anyone question your years of training or ability, only the "facts" as you choose to present them.  There are several folks on this board with more than enough experience and knowledge to debunk what you insist are obvious facts.  Sorry, I for one, don't buy it.


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## jtweymo (Feb 26, 2009)

Whew.

Hi ya Saitama.

Look...

ok.



> Saitama said:   No, it's just that Yoshinuri is not a name. Yoshiaki, Yoshinoru or Yoshinari are names in Japanese culture. Yoshinuri is not a name in Japanese culture.


AND PRIOR POST


> I also did a check on Kimura "Yoshinuri". Yoshinuri is not recognized as a male Japanese name. If you had typed "Yoshinari", I might have been thrown for a curve ball. Since you're such an articulate fellow, I know you don't make typos.


 
You're contradicting yourself, ok?

Which is it? Not a male name? Or not a name at all? In the one remark you imply that's it's a female personal name. Now you state no such name exists at all. 

That was HIS name, Saitama. He was a man, not a woman... and you sir are very insultuous.

If you were behaving reasonably and not throwing around meaningless gripes... asking straight out questions for infos sake... I'd oblige you. I have to this point and answered whatever inquiry you placed, without regard to your poor manners. 

Even the moderator fella complained that this was possibly breaking the rules. It don't need to happen. Obey the rules.

Nobody getting worthlessly badgered like this is gonna interact with you and neither am I. I sure ain't.

Don't keep hounding me or I'll report it to the moderator, ok?


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## Saitama Steve (Feb 26, 2009)

jtweymo said:


> Whew.
> 
> Hi ya Saitama.
> 
> ...


 
It's neither a name nor a male designated name in Japanese culture at all. 

No Insult. Fact. 



jtweymo said:


> If you were behaving reasonably and not throwing around meaningless gripes... asking straight out questions for infos sake... I'd oblige you. I have to this point and answered whatever inquiry you placed, without regard to your poor manners.
> 
> Even the moderator fella complained that this was possibly breaking the rules. It don't need to happen. Obey the rules.
> 
> ...


 
Well what you do is basically misinform people who have no background in certain fields of study in budo. If your information was correct, which it is most certainly not, we wouldn't be having this exchange. I don't like seeing people who really want to know or learn being led up the garden path. 

You say you're an amateur linguist. Where Did you learn your Japanese&#65311;

&#26085;&#26412;&#35486;&#12391;&#27494;&#36947;&#38306;&#20418;&#12398;&#20250;&#35441;&#12434;&#12420;&#12426;&#12414;&#12375;&#12423;&#12358;&#12363;

It's one thing to base a theory on some rudimentary knowledge of kanji. 

It is totally another to know the culture, language and it's trappings and have experience.


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## shesulsa (Feb 26, 2009)

_*ADMIN NOTE:

THREAD LOCKED PENDING ADMIN REVIEW.

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POSTING IN ANY LANGUAGE OTHER THAN ENGLISH IS AGAINST THE RULES.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assist. Administrator*_


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 26, 2009)

*Admin Note:
While our staff reviews this thread, we recommend that those involved in the heated debate also review our rules, specifically sections 4.16.1, 4.16.2, 4.18 and 9.5.

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