# Fraud.....



## tmonis (Nov 28, 2004)

Without mentioning any names, Please explain to me how a well known martial artist can be promoted to 1st Dan in1994 and then be promoted to 9th by 2003. And has only had a school for about 3 years from 1994-1997. Gave it up and his only job to the Martial Arts now is be a figure head of an organization.

I guess it comes back to not what you know, but who you know in this case. Maybe if I work real hard sucking up I can become a 10th Dan in about a year or so to.

Is it just me or does that sound real fishy to you?:idunno:


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## Michael Billings (Nov 28, 2004)

If the facts are as you state them, and he claiming a Kenpo 10th degree ...  Pheeeewwwwweeeeeeee!

 -Michael


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## tmonis (Nov 28, 2004)

No, he was promoted by a very well known 10th Dan in the Kenpo world to 9th Dan. But my point is how do you go from 1st to 9th in less than 9 years?
I find that to be very interesting.


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## shesulsa (Nov 28, 2004)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> If the facts are as you state them, and he claiming a Kenpo 10th degree ...  Pheeeewwwwweeeeeeee!
> 
> -Michael


 :rofl::rofl::rofl::boing1::boing2::boing1:


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## jfarnsworth (Nov 28, 2004)

Try not to worry about who gets promoted to what. Eventually those who try to pull the wool over everyone's eyes wil get exposed at some point.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 28, 2004)

tmonis said:
			
		

> Without mentioning any names,
> 
> 
> . Maybe if I work real hard sucking up I can become a 10th Dan in about a year or so to.
> ...


Not at all, and in fact, I can sell you the same rank progression system that'll get you there in months!


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## tmonis (Nov 28, 2004)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Try not to worry about who gets promoted to what. Eventually those who try to pull the wool over everyone's eyes wil get exposed at some point.


Good Call jfarnsworth. However by doing that it really gives their style and system of Kenpo a real bad name and it makes you stop and wonder about it all. I was even told that some of their stuff was copied from other people and called their own.

It's all good though. And thank all of you for your opinions. I was just wondering if anyone else felt like I did.


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## tmonis (Nov 28, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> Not at all, and in fact, I can sell you the same rank progression system that'll get you there in months!


Lotus,

I hope you are just joking. Video tapes cannot take the place of true training.


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## KenpoDave (Nov 28, 2004)

tmonis said:
			
		

> Without mentioning any names, Please explain to me how a well known martial artist can be promoted to 1st Dan in1994 and then be promoted to 9th by 2003. And has only had a school for about 3 years from 1994-1997. Gave it up and his only job to the Martial Arts now is be a figure head of an organization.
> 
> I guess it comes back to not what you know, but who you know in this case. Maybe if I work real hard sucking up I can become a 10th Dan in about a year or so to.
> 
> Is it just me or does that sound real fishy to you?:idunno:



Well, Elvis got an 8th.  I try not to worry about other people's ranks.  Other people's ranks don't really matter though.

I have heard of people "orphaned" in their arts by an instructor who retires or dies, but continues to train and/or teach for years with no rank advancement, and then later is bumped up several degrees at one time by a governing body.

But, the bottom line is that the cream rises to the top.


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## tmonis (Nov 28, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Well, Elvis got an 8th. I try not to worry about other people's ranks. Other people's ranks don't really matter though.
> 
> I have heard of people "orphaned" in their arts by an instructor who retires or dies, but continues to train and/or teach for years with no rank advancement, and then later is bumped up several degrees at one time by a governing body.
> 
> But, the bottom line is that the cream rises to the top.


Kenpodave, Thanks for your thoughts. I really am not worried about the ranking is much as I am the way people are selling out Kenpo and the other arts just to make a buck. It really disappoints me that a new person looking at Kenpo as something they might like to do and then see stuff like that happening. It gives the rest of us a bad name. Even if we prove that we are hard workers and train hard. It still leaves a bad taste in their mouth. 

It is one thing if you are training privately with someone after being orphaned and teach other students. But to have a school for only 3 years after making 1st. Give it up, never to open a new school  and then in ten years later make 9th. How do you do that?

And I agree time will either promote you or expose you. But just traveling around not really having to do any thing at seminars. Who will question them?

Sad they can get away with that. It is kinda like following Jim Jones, David Korish, Timothy Mcvee or something.


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## getgoin (Nov 28, 2004)

tmonis said:
			
		

> Give it up, never to open a new school and then in ten years later make 9th. How do you do that?


Check or Money Order usually works.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 28, 2004)

tmonis said:
			
		

> Kenpodave, Thanks for your thoughts. I really am not worried about the ranking is much as I am the way people are selling out Kenpo and the other arts just to make a buck. It really disappoints me that a new person looking at Kenpo as something they might like to do and then see stuff like that happening. It gives the rest of us a bad name. Even if we prove that we are hard workers and train hard. It still leaves a bad taste in their mouth.


Yah, I'm sorry , my comment _was_ tongue in cheek at best.  The above statement sums it up nicely though, and this phenomena is not restricted to Kenpo alone.  There are "practioners" in all styles and martial arts who either negotiate their belts ( as opposed to earn them through hard training and demonstration of skill ), and still some others who just straight out buy their belts off the net ( and buy registration ) without ever having neccessarily have ever even trained.  This is an unfortunate fact of a society so financially geared, but for those that earnt theirs, it takes nothing away from neither their acheivement or integrity.  Sometimes, and particularly for students in this case,  you have to sort through the chaff to get to the hay.  And _that,_ and working out the difference is part of the experience.

cheers

Blooming Lotus


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## jfarnsworth (Nov 28, 2004)

tmonis said:
			
		

> Good Call jfarnsworth.



Hey thanks :asian: . 



> However by doing that it really gives their style and system of Kenpo a real bad name and it makes you stop and wonder about it all. I was even told that some of their stuff was copied from other people and called their own


I answered something similar to this in another thread a few days ago. It was either something like "Anyone can get a black belt" or something about "sanctioning rank by a governing board". I can't remember the thread of the second one exactly but I answered both of them.
 :asian:


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## Doc (Nov 28, 2004)

All of the comments are obviously on the money. Consider that "Kenpo" has more 'grandmasters," and "masters" than any other martial art form and you began to get an idea of the significant impact the commercialization and the "business" aspect of "kenpo" has had on all forms of the art.

Kenpo has consistently drawn more frauds, and nebulous rankings than any art, and that includes some legitmate ranks who have chosen to "inflate" their rank for the expressed purposes of financial gain and public notoriety, and organization building. Some lower ranks have recruited higher ranks into their organizations, only to be promoted by them, so they can get together and promote each other. Than there are those that started out with a legitimate organizations who were "fast track" promoted by suspect panels and non-kenpoists only to leave after they reached their rank limitations.

That is not to say that other arts are completely devoid of such shenanigans, but not to the extend that we see in "kenpo." We are rife with multi-lettered organizations, (all with their own SGM or GM), and underling "yes men masters" hovering for rank, a multitude of rediculous video "distance learning" courses also offering rank, and more seminars, camps, and merchandise than any other art on earth. We have more sharlitans, liars, thieves, con men, child molesters, and dope dealers than anyone. I thought the Koreans (styles) were bad, but I'm afraid we win the prize. All in the pursuit of the almighty buck.

Now I'm not suggesting that because someone makes money it makes them a bad guy, after all this is America, but its the over inflated rank that is sought after and then utilized in pursuit of the buck that bothers me. After all, who would pay money to go to a seminar to listen to a first degree?

I stop wearing rank on my belt because everywhere you go, all people do is look down to see the size of your ck, and compare it to their own. If yours is bigger than people want to talk to you. If theirs is bigger, they ignore you and look for the guy with the big one, apparently for a good scrwing. Look and listen to me, and if you find value in what I have to say and share, then my rank doesn't matter. And when I talk to you, I follow my teachers example. I don't care what your rank is either. Let's just talk about Kenpo. We just might educate each other.

"Just because the red show, don't mean that you know." - Ed Parker Sr.
That's one hell of a statement when you're talking about your own students and organization. I know you didn't think he was talking about some other group - did you?


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 28, 2004)

you're right.  Unfortunately the colour of your belt and how many stripes it has often does equate to the size of your errm ....neck, but as long as you really arte good with the size of said neck , that makes your belt as a show belt piece kinda redundant now doesn't.  And if you're not in need of the show piece , your skill and knowledge in even one discussion or demo, will often just speak for itself.   

Something comes to mind here about books , covers and judgement........now what was that exactly...............???   

BL


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## tmonis (Nov 28, 2004)

Doc and Lotus,

You guys are right on the money. Back in the day, I can remember when the late Prof. Cerio had an organization called NCIMMA. An excellent organization that tried to bring all Kenpo stylist together for networking etc. But look what happen. People started sending in phoney certificates as part of the membership package. Prof. Cerio would send them a affiliate certificate showing membership to that bogus ranking certificate. Next thing you know. These people was running around saying they were ranked and in fact had trained with Prof. Cerio. What a lie. Most of them had never even met the man. Prof. Cerio caught to what was happening an closed the organization down. Those people made it bad for alot of us for a long time. I bet some of them still use those certificates to try to pull to woll over some peoples eyes. Those are the same guys that only have pictures of themselves hanging on their walls of their Dojo. No student pictures anywhere.

Thanks very much for your input.


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## GAB (Nov 28, 2004)

Hi Doc,

Good post, thanks for the information and for your opinion.

Regards, Gary


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## Doc (Nov 28, 2004)

tmonis said:
			
		

> Please explain to me how a well known martial artist can be promoted to 1st Dan in1994 and then be promoted to 9th by 2003.


How about being a third when Ed Parker Sr. Passed and then being a 9th in 6 years promoted by smeone who has no rank in kenpo at all? It happens, but history is a mother.


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## LIFEGUARDTKD (Nov 28, 2004)

You should not be surprised by this, if you follow the path of many so called 'masters' you'll find self-promotion, and promotion amoung a group of 'Federation' freinds.
My own teacher was amoung both catagories. He even promoted himself to 8th dan.
Needless to say I finally gave up on him as my permanent master when I found out where he was coming from. Thats not to say that he didn't have things to teach us. His knowledge level was that of a first dan. Such is life.


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## LIFEGUARDTKD (Nov 28, 2004)

You should not be surprised. There are those who pass themselves as 'masters' when in fact they may be only 1st or 2nd dan or those who get promoted by their 'Federation' friends. I once saw a small group of masters promote each other on the spot after a successful tournament. Yes my friend it was raining rank. My own teacher actually promoted himself to 8th dan so that he could retire and claim he was a grand master. Needless to say I left him as my personal teacher and lost all respect for him. Thats not to say he didn't have techniques to teach us, but the fact was what he had was at best 1st or 2nd dan knowledge. If it were not for my cross and self training I'd be in poor shape indeed. The shame is that newbees don't know whats happening to the or that their being duped until they have spent so much time and so much money before they find out.            Peace


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## shane23ss (Nov 28, 2004)

I want to say I think Doc is right on the money with his response.  I am new to this site and as you can see only 1st Degree. I myself have witnessed some of this in the school where I used to train. My instructor once gained two degrees at once without really doing anything. I just went to class one day and he had two more red stripes. The other students nor myself really said anything. I was in denial and really didn't want to believe in any kind of fraud simply because of my love for Kenpo, and that was the only school even close to my area, I knew if I left there was no where else to go. I eventually got my balck belt and the school is now closed. I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions on how some one in my situation would go about moving up in the ranks, without a Kenpo school near.  Thanks


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## tmonis (Nov 28, 2004)

shane23ss said:
			
		

> I want to say I think Doc is right on the money with his response. I am new to this site and as you can see only 1st Degree. I myself have witnessed some of this in the school where I used to train. My instructor once gained two degrees at once without really doing anything. I just went to class one day and he had two more red stripes. The other students nor myself really said anything. I was in denial and really didn't want to believe in any kind of fraud simply because of my love for Kenpo, and that was the only school even close to my area, I knew if I left there was no where else to go. I eventually got my balck belt and the school is now closed. I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions on how some one in my situation would go about moving up in the ranks, without a Kenpo school near. Thanks


Shane unfortunately We had a guy here that got everyone to sign a bunch of contracts and bank drafts from people banks and trained with them for about 4-5 months. He had skills to. I think he was supposed to be a 5th Dan. His students went to class one day and he taken the money and left town. Tell me that didn't hurt us in the Kenpo world. 

My suggestion to you is to start teaching privately or open up a place of your own. then start doing some research on real Kenpo Organizations that can really help you. Affiliate with true Kenpo stylist that can lead you in the right direction and ones that can help you get promoted. BUT BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL ABOUT WHO YOU ASSOCIATE WITH. Their are some real frauds out there. You can be tested by legimate Kenpo stylist. But you will have to sit before a panel in order to do it. And if you are a 1st degree and they promote you to a 6th degree. You know something is truly wrong with that. What state do you live in?


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## Matt (Nov 29, 2004)

tmonis said:
			
		

> Shane unfortunately We had a guy here that got everyone to sign a bunch of contracts and bank drafts from people banks and trained with them for about 4-5 months. He had skills to. I think he was supposed to be a 5th Dan. His students went to class one day and he taken the money and left town. Tell me that didn't hurt us in the Kenpo world.
> 
> My suggestion to you is to start teaching privately or open up a place of your own. then start doing some research on real Kenpo Organizations that can really help you. Affiliate with true Kenpo stylist that can lead you in the right direction and ones that can help you get promoted. BUT BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL ABOUT WHO YOU ASSOCIATE WITH. Their are some real frauds out there. You can be tested by legimate Kenpo stylist. But you will have to sit before a panel in order to do it. And if you are a 1st degree and they promote you to a 6th degree. You know something is truly wrong with that. What state do you live in?



Totally true - there are a lot of organizations out there, and most are willing to part with some paper to get some cash. There's one that has the gall to essentially post a menu with Grades and dollar amounts, and then a separate 'bonus menu' for the assignation of titles.  The kicker is, this kempo organization is run by a guy who didn't even study kempo, just some other arts which he mixed together and called the result kempo. In one case, he had a 'state rep' sign on as a 5th dan, and then four months later, the same fellow is listed as promoted to 7th dan. What gives? The 'dan of the month club'? I guess it doesn't matter much when you are on the mat, you can either do it or you can't.


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## expressdog01 (Nov 29, 2004)

Jeff speakman??????????


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## Doc (Nov 29, 2004)

expressdog01 said:
			
		

> Jeff speakman??????????


 :ultracool


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## Karazenpo (Nov 29, 2004)

tmonis said:
			
		

> Doc and Lotus,
> 
> You guys are right on the money. Back in the day, I can remember when the late Prof. Cerio had an organization called NCIMMA. An excellent organization that tried to bring all Kenpo stylist together for networking etc. But look what happen. People started sending in phoney certificates as part of the membership package. Prof. Cerio would send them a affiliate certificate showing membership to that bogus ranking certificate. Next thing you know. These people was running around saying they were ranked and in fact had trained with Prof. Cerio. What a lie. Most of them had never even met the man. Prof. Cerio caught to what was happening an closed the organization down. Those people made it bad for alot of us for a long time. I bet some of them still use those certificates to try to pull to woll over some peoples eyes. Those are the same guys that only have pictures of themselves hanging on their walls of their Dojo. No student pictures anywhere.
> 
> Thanks very much for your input.



Hi Todd, I was with Prof. Cerio at that time. It wasn't that phony certificates of rank were being processed, for he used to check them out. I was with him in Warwick once when he had me look at an application and certificate and then put them in his 'circular file', lol, not to mention, most of the membership was made up from either his schools or offshoot schools where he recognized the instructors, such as the Villari group, then there were some others from non-kenpo schools and organizations. If one or a few 'slipped' past him, (anything is possible), I never heard of it. The problem, as you had mentioned, was this: Say someone sent him a legitimate dan ranking certificate from Fred Villari's studios. He approves it and on the recommendation of the instructor, issues him a membership certificate 'of that rank', not a rank promotion of any sort. Later, as you stated Todd, this individual would display the certficate in his school and/or in advertising, claiming rank promotion and being a private student of the Professor's. So, in fustration and disgust, he disolved NCIMAA. It's was really too bad but many of us could see it coming the way some martial artists abuse things.


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## tmonis (Nov 29, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hi Todd, I was with Prof. Cerio at that time. It wasn't that phony certificates of rank were being processed, for he used to check them out. I was with him in Warwick once when he had me look at an application and certificate and then put them in his 'circular file', lol, not to mention, most of the membership was made up from either his schools or offshoot schools where he recognized the instructors, such as the Villari group, then there were some others from non-kenpo schools and organizations. If one or a few 'slipped' past him, (anything is possible), I never heard of it. The problem, as you had mentioned, was this: Say someone sent him a legitimate dan ranking certificate from Fred Villari's studios. He approves it and on the recommendation of the instructor, issues him a membership certificate 'of that rank', not a rank promotion of any sort. Later, as you stated Todd, this individual would display the certficate in his school and/or in advertising, claiming rank promotion and being a private student of the Professor's. So, in fustration and disgust, he disolved NCIMAA. It's was really too bad but many of us could see it coming the way some martial artists abuse things.


Joe,

You are extremely right with your posting. Prof. Cerio was a very honorable man and I know he would not purposely do anything to hurt Kenpo in any way shape or form. However as you stated, A few did get by and man did they use that to their advantage. According to the ones that have them. Prof. Cerio would never had enough time in the day to train all of his private students that claimed they had trained with him. I saw and called a person out on one the other day. Posted all over his website was a certificate of rank from NCIMMA. This gentleman said he had privately trained with Prof. Cerio back in the day. When it came down to it. He didn't even know where he lived much less knew anything about Prof. Cerio. That is my point. Fraud in the arts. People claiming to be what they aren't simply because they saw a GM at seminar that they went to. Now all of a sudden they are a private student of that GM. Or better yet they get a picture taken with that GM and now they are the best of friends. It kills me. Joe you I have been in Kenpo a long time.
You have to admit, not just in Kenpo either, they are out there making a bad name for us all. But please tell me how do go from 1st in 1994 to 9th in 2003?
I don't think that is right do you? Something is wrong with that. 

I looked forward to your call this weekend. 

Todd


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## Karazenpo (Nov 29, 2004)

tmonis said:
			
		

> Joe,
> 
> You are extremely right with your posting. Prof. Cerio was a very honorable man and I know he would not purposely do anything to hurt Kenpo in any way shape or form. However as you stated, A few did get by and man did they use that to their advantage. According to the ones that have them. Prof. Cerio would never had enough time in the day to train all of his private students that claimed they had trained with him. I saw and called a person out on one the other day. Posted all over his website was a certificate of rank from NCIMMA. This gentleman said he had privately trained with Prof. Cerio back in the day. When it came down to it. He didn't even know where he lived much less knew anything about Prof. Cerio. That is my point. Fraud in the arts. People claiming to be what they aren't simply because they saw a GM at seminar that they went to. Now all of a sudden they are a private student of that GM. Or better yet they get a picture taken with that GM and now they are the best of friends. It kills me. Joe you I have been in Kenpo a long time.
> You have to admit, not just in Kenpo either, they are out there making a bad name for us all. But please tell me how do go from 1st in 1994 to 9th in 2003?
> ...



Todd, I'll give you call now, sorry I didn't get back to you this weekend but I worked and we got real busy. Joe


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## Matt (Nov 29, 2004)

tmonis said:
			
		

> You have to admit, not just in Kenpo either, they are out there making a bad name for us all. But please tell me how do go from 1st in 1994 to 9th in 2003?
> I don't think that is right do you? Something is wrong with that.
> 
> I looked forward to your call this weekend.
> ...



I've seen someone go from brown belt in 2000 to 9th dan. Rank really has pretty much achieved pointlessness in Kempo/kenpo. 

Matt


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## tmonis (Nov 29, 2004)

Matt said:
			
		

> I've seen someone go from brown belt in 2000 to 9th dan. Rank really has pretty much achieved pointlessness in Kempo/kenpo.
> 
> Matt


Matt,

That is a true shame. I bet that brown is just as proud as he can be. More than likely thinks there is nothing wrong with that either. Because his instructor or who ever promoted him said it was ok.  And whar a false sense of security. Does he really posses the experience of a 9th Dan? I think not. :idunno:


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 29, 2004)

unfortunately it happens in many arts.  A senior black belt will for whatever reason give someone a high rank when they should still be a first degree. Sometimes it is for money, sometimes because they are family friends, somtimes for (who knows what ). That paper says that you are a certian rank and unfortunaately they are out there. To bad none of them say honorary or in your own eyes only


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Nov 29, 2004)

There is only one workable solution to this whole issue of unwarranted self-promotions.  

*IT IS TIME TO PROMOTE THE KENPO SENIORS!!!  *   

Please see this thread:  http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8067


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## M.C. Busman (Nov 29, 2004)

Fraud actually refers to intentionally misleading a person generally for profit.  I don't know if _just_ claiming high rank would qualify this since there is no real national standard from org to org.  If a fellow is lying about his rank, seniority, or how/who promoted him, and taking your dollar$ to promote _you_, you ~may~ be a direct victim of fraud.  "Phony" or "Poser" might be better terms for what we are discussing here.

If it makes y'all fell any better, Okinawa kenpo & karate have been having a similar problem for at least the last 20 or so years.  W/ certain Okinawans, the problem seems to be that they will promote anyone who has the money and/or offers to publicize the system's name.  The sad thing is that many of these are legit "old head" masters who earned their rank, have the skill...and are selling out their legit students and the name of the school to hit it big.  This is A LOT more common than many Okinawan practitioners would like to admit.

Here in the USA a lesser form of this might be "honorary" black belts--which at least use "honorary" in the title to suggest the recipient doesn't necessarily have the skills to match the "honor".  The world over it has become common practice for people to give out high ranks to their buddies, regardless of how unqualified in the actual system the recipient is.  So now we're not just dealing with a claim to high _dan_ rank...but often guys who have anywhere from four to ten _dan_ from 4th to 10th.

The way to figure it out in any art is to ask the individual how much time they studied 1. In the _exact_ art the certificate names, and 2. how long they studied & with whom.  Usually that gives a fairly clear picture of the individual's actual experience.  Of course, I'm assuming you're going to get the truth when you ask 


Stay Safe,

M.C. Busman


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## James Kovacich (Nov 29, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> :ultracool



So is Speakmans name being associated with the word fraud? I know he spoke highly of you and achknowleged training under you. He had good technique when I saw him so if you are good enough to teach him then I respectfully bow down. I did not like the Kenpo footwork though, it was like blending " a more modern style" hand technique with "old style" footwork. No disrespect intended!

Should he of approached the Kenpo seniors?

He did a seminar for Hanshi that I attended. He was not happy with the Kenpo world. I think his choice of testing under a board of high ranks was appropriate for "him." He said he was testing for 7th. I did not know of a 9th being awarded or if it's even true.

Did Ed Parker promote anyone to 10th? If not, then today's 10'ths are in "their own" systems and that is where I beleive Jeff is headed. I don't know him like you do or even close. He's just a special person to someone that is special to me. I'm just surprised about the talk about him. Thats part of the reason he's the way he is.


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## Doc (Nov 29, 2004)

akja said:
			
		

> So is Speakmans name being associated with the word fraud? I know he spoke highly of you and achknowleged training under you. He had good technique when I saw him so if you are good enough to teach him then I respectfully bow down. I did not like the Kenpo footwork though, it was like blending " a more modern style" hand technique with "old style" footwork. No disrespect intended!
> 
> Should he of approached the Kenpo seniors?
> 
> ...


 :supcool:


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## tmonis (Nov 29, 2004)

akja said:
			
		

> So is Speakmans name being associated with the word fraud? I know he spoke highly of you and achknowleged training under you. He had good technique when I saw him so if you are good enough to teach him then I respectfully bow down. I did not like the Kenpo footwork though, it was like blending " a more modern style" hand technique with "old style" footwork. No disrespect intended!
> 
> Should he of approached the Kenpo seniors?
> 
> ...


Akja,

I started this post and was not speaking about Speakman. I really did not mention anyones name. Just wanted to know how everyone felt about how fast people are being promoted. I did not mention any names because I really am not worried about the person as much as I am the practice of promoting or ranking un deserved people.

Thanks for your input.

Todd


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Nov 29, 2004)

Um, actually all promotions above 5th degree (16 technique curriculum) or even 3rd degree (24 technique) are recognitions of time in the art and service.  Therefore, they are somewhat honorary, partly ceremonial, and not necessarily skill based.

So, who really cares?

Regardless of what rank an instructor wears, you have to ask yourself a few questions:
Do they know what they are doing?
Can they teach what they know?
Can they teach YOU what YOU need/want to learn?
Will you ENJOY learning from them?

My instructor never wore any red on his Black Belt.  He was "jumped" from 3rd Degree to 7th degree.  He appreciated the recognition of his accomplishments, but continued to wear a plain Black Belt with no red on it.  I recently took all the red off my Black Belt.  

Really, when you think about it, the Black Belt is like a college diploma.  If you learned your lessons well, nobody asks about your GPA and some won't even care where you got your diploma.  I've got an MBA, but nobody asks me about my GPA or where I got my degree...they just ask me what decisions am I going to make today.  You should treat your Kenpo the same way.


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## jfarnsworth (Nov 29, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> There is only one workable solution to this whole issue of unwarranted self-promotions.
> 
> *IT IS TIME TO PROMOTE THE KENPO SENIORS!!!  *
> 
> Please see this thread:  http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8067


Oh no! Not that thread again  

artyon:


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## Doc (Nov 29, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Um, actually all promotions above 5th degree (16 technique curriculum) or even 3rd degree (24 technique) are recognitions of time in the art and service.  Therefore, they are somewhat honorary, partly ceremonial, and not necessarily skill based.
> 
> So, who really cares?
> 
> ...


One of the things that we have done to remove any rank pressure is, "All black belt numerical ranks are honorary or emeritus. No exceptions. The real document in our curriculum that is prized is a "Teaching Credential." No credential - no teach - no exceptions. The teaching credential has various levels covering varying aspects of the curriculum. The higher the level, the greater the time envolved. No exceptions. Every level at every rank has a "minimum time requirement" that is broken down into "classroom hours." Not weeks, months, or years, but actual hours in the classroom taking instruction. When the hourly requirement is completed, than a student is eligible to petition to take an advancement test. Whether or not his petition is accepted, is up to the testing and credentials committe.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Nov 29, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> One of the things that we have done to remove any rank pressure is, "All black belt numerical ranks are honorary or emeritus. No exceptions. The real document in our curriculum that is prized is a "Teaching Credential." No credential - no teach - no exceptions. The teaching credential has various levels covering varying aspects of the curriculum. The higher the level, the greater the time envolved. No exceptions. Every level at every rank has a "minimum time requirement" that is broken down into "classroom hours." Not weeks, months, or years, but actual hours in the classroom taking instruction. When the hourly requirement is completed, than a student is eligible to petition to take an advancement test. Whether or not his petition is accepted, is up to the testing and credentials committe.



Bravo!


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## expressdog01 (Nov 29, 2004)

whats up akja
I belive you put speakmans name and the word fraud togather, but I am the one who brought his name up so if that is problem e-mail me for my phone number and address 
DOC said nothing but his smily smiled deal with it 
expressdog01@sbcglobal.net
Stan Kline


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## Shortay (Nov 30, 2004)

I have to say, I think the main people these 'frauds' are cheating are themselves. 

I wouldn't give up the sense of accomplishment - the feeling like I've earned my new belt for anything!


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## James Kovacich (Nov 30, 2004)

expressdog01 said:
			
		

> whats up akja
> I belive you put speakmans name and the word fraud togather, but I am the one who brought his name up so if that is problem e-mail me for my phone number and address
> DOC said nothing but his smily smiled deal with it
> expressdog01@sbcglobal.net
> Stan Kline



Another dojo buster or whatever. To clarify, I barely met Jeff through Hanshi. I was speaking to Doc who at one time time if I'm not mistaking taught Speakman. A professional question and he has the right answers, unlike you. Deal with it. 

I'm easily found. My phone# is on my site. My door is open and I'll greet you when you make the flight.


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## James Kovacich (Nov 30, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> One of the things that we have done to remove any rank pressure is, "All black belt numerical ranks are honorary or emeritus. No exceptions. The real document in our curriculum that is prized is a "Teaching Credential." No credential - no teach - no exceptions. The teaching credential has various levels covering varying aspects of the curriculum. The higher the level, the greater the time envolved. No exceptions. Every level at every rank has a "minimum time requirement" that is broken down into "classroom hours." Not weeks, months, or years, but actual hours in the classroom taking instruction. When the hourly requirement is completed, than a student is eligible to petition to take an advancement test. Whether or not his petition is accepted, is up to the testing and credentials committe.


Doc, I think you are a wise man.  :asian:


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## GAB (Nov 30, 2004)

akja,
I like your style, I will have to make a point of getting over to your Dojo and watch what you are doing. I am a friendly old guy so I am sure we will get along. LOL..

Take care, keep your back covered.

Regards, Gary


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## James Kovacich (Nov 30, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> akja,
> I like your style, I will have to make a point of getting over to your Dojo and watch what you are doing. I am a friendly old guy so I am sure we will get along. LOL..
> 
> Take care, keep your back covered.
> ...


Like my Sifu, my door is open, especially those who are practically in my backyard!

Also, I'm putting together a technique page which will be up soon. I started it for my students so that they could "trigger" theoir memory. Anyway, theirs is separate from this one. But this one will eventually show ALL of the Kempo Ju Jitsu Basic Technique. But not "how we put it all together." 

Some would call it "grafting" but what makes it unique is that ANY techique can be used in conjunction with ANY technique at any time. 

Take care, :asian:


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## GAB (Nov 30, 2004)

akja,

I went to the website, I really like it. I will spend some more time later, right now I have to go and beat on those bags and hit the sticks.

Take care and thanks for the invite.

Regards, Gary


----------



## shane23ss (Nov 30, 2004)

Thanks for your responses.

tmonis,

that is terrible that something like that would happen. things like that DO give kenpo in general a bad name. my instructor had skill as well. in fact he was probably at the level he had on his belt, but it was the way he went about it that caused me to lose respect. once i received my BB, i stayed a while, but I slowly went less and less until I wasn't going at all. a couple of years later the school closed because of reasons I am not sure of (believe it was family issues).

I have thought about opening a place of my own. I guess the only thing holding me back is that I am 1st Dan. I know that sounds stupid, but I have noticed a lot of people (not familiar with, or just starting in the martial arts) look at how many stripes are on your belt because the guy down the street has 6 or 7, and they wonder why you don't. I know that really doesn't matter cause it will show on the mat, I just don't want to become a statistic. I do try to do some research on associations, but like you said, there are a lot out there. At the time I was attending that school, I was in TX, I now live in the North West corner of TN, bordering KY. There are several different martial arts schools around here, but no Kenpo schools that I know of. As far as joining an association, I'm not sure how that would work. Would I travel to their school every so often to test and what not, or is it some other way. Like since I live in TN, and joined an association in CA, how would that work?  Thanks.


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## Doc (Nov 30, 2004)

akja said:
			
		

> Doc, I think you are a wise man.  :asian:


I think you're cute too!  :ultracool


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## tmonis (Nov 30, 2004)

shane23ss said:
			
		

> Thanks for your responses.
> 
> tmonis,
> 
> ...


Shanes23ss,

Where do you live in TN? What style of Kenpo do you practice? One of the best Kenpo stylist that I know lives in Knoxville, TN. (GM Bruce Corrigan) He has been around along time and has trained with some of the best. (Prof. Cerio, Prof. Godin and GM Pesare to name a few.) I live in Columbia, SC and have a great network of people who could help you.  By all means if you are the only Kenpo stylist in your area, you should start a class or school in your area. Start small and work your way up. By the time you have a student to test for Black Belt, you will have more than likely have been promoted yourself. We could help you. I will PM you soon about some other opitions. But be careful about the associations that you get in with. Most only want your money.

Todd


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## DoxN4cer (Dec 1, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> All of the comments are obviously on the money. Consider that "Kenpo" has more 'grandmasters," and "masters" than any other martial art form and you began to get an idea of the significant impact the commercialization and the "business" aspect of "kenpo" has had on all forms of the art.



Doc, I would have to differ from you there.  The various forms of Korean martial arts beat out Kenpo by a mile for that.  Every school owner seems to be a master or garndmaster.  The FMA follows at a close third.


Tim


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## hammer (Dec 1, 2004)

well. i have read all the posts in this thread, and it only brought to bear my own furstrations, being in australia we are so far removed from the kenpo world, as to its exsistence in its home land,

i have been in kenpo since eighty seven, and like those mentioned in the pervious threads,my instructor promoted him self to seven dan , and bastardize the system ,along the way in his design to make a money making machine, as with promoting his most senior students to a 6 dan and 5 dan, as a kid this was most impressive but as we grow an mature this becomes to light , and the worst thing they could have done was put them selves on video, lol

Unaware of this i had taken some time out of my trainning ,when returned to the assioation, had folded, yet the said 5 dan remianed teaching,with some revison i was back up to speed , yet his knowlege of kenpo did not pass green belt, so in a cry for help i contacted an american senior , who travled to australia , offering to help, yet in the end indorsed the grades that were current,[ of the 5dan] only to join his assoation, and represent him here in oz , but who cares,

Is the martal arts purely a money making machine ???

And for the person that truely wants to learn the art must he beg, borrow and steal,

who compensates for time wasted,

oh yes we to have the speakman camp here this is even funny the head of his system here is a seven dan from his own made up art , please

its out right theift ,

sorry its just a fowl taste in my mouth,


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## Doc (Dec 1, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Doc, I would have to differ from you there.  The various forms of Korean martial arts beat out Kenpo by a mile for that.  Every school owner seems to be a master or garndmaster.  The FMA follows at a close third.
> Tim



Yes I'm familiar with that, and its like that in the USA as well. Ed Parker Sr. called them "airline promotions." You get on a plane in Korea as a 1st degree and land in the USA as a 7th. I personally remember Joo Bang and Soo Bang Lee as 1st degree students of  Sea Oh Choi in Hapkido here in Southern California. Then they quit, formed their own organization and  became Grandmasters of "Hawrangdo" in the sixties. Now their sons are "grandmasters" and they are "Supreme Grandmasters."

However the difference is striking in kenpo because so many of the masters and GM's come from essentially the same modern day lineage. Almost all of them can be traced back to in some manner the Chow/Parker lineage. Most of the Koreans would simply claim the rank from nebulous sources in Korea as opposed to a particular lineage or singular teacher for all of them. 

Just how many masters and grandmasters can there be in Ed Parkers American Kenpo? Who knows but I can tell you this. The majority of them are from Mr. Parker's very commercial motion based art, so I guess it's appropriate they should make it sooner than Ed Parker Sr. did himself. Perhaps they understand his art better than he did. Ya think?


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## Drac (Dec 1, 2004)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Try not to worry about who gets promoted to what. Eventually those who try to pull the wool over everyone's eyes wil get exposed at some point.


Truer words were never spoken (written)..


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## Karazenpo (Dec 1, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> Yes I'm familiar with that, and its like that in the USA as well. Ed Parker Sr. called them "airline promotions." You get on a plane in Korea as a 1st degree and land in the USA as a 7th. I personally remember Joo Bang and Soo Bang Lee as 1st degree students of  Sea Oh Choi in Hapkido here in Southern California. Then they quit, formed their own organization and  became Grandmasters of "Hawrangdo" in the sixties. Now their sons are "grandmasters" and they are "Supreme Grandmasters."
> 
> However the difference is striking in kenpo because so many of the masters and GM's come from essentially the same modern day lineage. Almost all of them can be traced back to in some manner the Chow/Parker lineage. Most of the Koreans would simply claim the rank from nebulous sources in Korea as opposed to a particular lineage or singular teacher for all of them.
> 
> Just how many masters and grandmasters can there be in Ed Parkers American Kenpo? Who knows but I can tell you this. The majority of them are from Mr. Parker's very commercial motion based art, so I guess it's appropriate they should make it sooner than Ed Parker Sr. did himself. Perhaps they understand his art better than he did. Ya think?



Hi Doc! Hope all is well with you and yours. Yes, I, too, have heard about the Korean situation but I also remember the 'airline promotions', It was in an article in one of the karate mags years ago, but it referenced 'Okinawa' at the time. There was even an article, I still have it somewhere, I think Black Belt, about three U.S. servicemen who were awarded their shodans while stationed in Okinawa. The article stated one night they 'tied one on' with their instructor, drinking 'saki' and by the end of the night he promoted them to 8th degree black belts. Well, it said he regretted it in the morning and got in touch with the three. He told them that in the U.S. they can claim 8th but in Okinawa, 3rd. The article stated at the time of it publication (late 80's, I think) that two were now 10ths and one was a 9th. I think Kenpo/Kempo gets a bad rap because of the numbers. The propagation of the Hawaiian derived kenpo schools since the 60's just simply overwelmed the martial arts community and when you have that high a number, you have a lot of good but also a lot of bad to go with it. Same percentage as any of the other systems but less of an overall volume to pull from, so you hear more about the abuses in kenpo/kempo. Yeah, Doc, I think the Koreans paved the way for this, lol. Hammer asked about money, I say: For many, it's always about the money. However, I'll gladly close my doors before I compromise my priniciples and after three decades in the arts there are MANY who have much more money than I do, and for that, I am PROUD!, lol.


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## James Kovacich (Dec 1, 2004)

hammer said:
			
		

> oh yes we to have the speakman camp here this is even funny the head of his system here is a seven dan from his own made up art



From just listening to Speakman and his views on rank, the Kenpo community, and martial arts in general, I beyond the shadow of doubt think that to be false.

Speaking of Speakman. At his seminar he a student who was a 1st Dan with him and after he noticed that some people did not agree with "his views" (some were Kenpo guys) he invited "anyone" in the room to come up and "train" with his student. No one stepped up and a couple walked out!


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## Doc (Dec 1, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hi Doc! Hope all is well with you and yours. Yes, I, too, have heard about the Korean situation but I also remember the 'airline promotions', It was in an article in one of the karate mags years ago, but it referenced 'Okinawa' at the time. There was even an article, I still have it somewhere, I think Black Belt, about three U.S. servicemen who were awarded their shodans while stationed in Okinawa. The article stated one night they 'tied one on' with their instructor, drinking 'saki' and by the end of the night he promoted them to 8th degree black belts. Well, it said he regretted it in the morning and got in touch with the three. He told them that in the U.S. they can claim 8th but in Okinawa, 3rd. The article stated at the time of it publication (late 80's, I think) that two were now 10ths and one was a 9th. I think Kenpo/Kempo gets a bad rap because of the numbers. The propagation of the Hawaiian derived kenpo schools since the 60's just simply overwelmed the martial arts community and when you have that high a number, you have a lot of good but also a lot of bad to go with it. Same percentage as any of the other systems but less of an overall volume to pull from, so you hear more about the abuses in kenpo/kempo. Yeah, Doc, I think the Koreans paved the way for this, lol. Hammer asked about money, I say: For many, it's always about the money. However, I'll gladly close my doors before I compromise my priniciples and after three decades in the arts there are MANY who have much more money than I do, and for that, I am PROUD!, lol.


That's why youdaman Joe.  :asian:


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## tmonis (Dec 1, 2004)

Doc,


I agree with you. Joe is the man.:ultracool 

Respectfully & Humbly

Prof. Todd


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## Matt (Dec 1, 2004)

hammer said:
			
		

> who compensates for time wasted,


 
If you improved your skills, it wasn't wasted. If you know now how it shouldn't be done, and can see the difference when it's done right, it wasn't wasted. If you are worried about rank, then yes, the time was wasted. 



> sorry its just a fowl taste in my mouth,



Man, I was just thinking that last Thursday.   

Matt


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## Karazenpo (Dec 1, 2004)

Thanks guys, it's mutual.........


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## Thunderbolt (Dec 1, 2004)

akja said:
			
		

> From just listening to Speakman and his views on rank, the Kenpo community, and martial arts in general, I beyond the shadow of doubt think that to be false.
> 
> Speaking of Speakman. At his seminar he a student who was a 1st Dan with him and after he noticed that some people did not agree with "his views" (some were Kenpo guys) he invited "anyone" in the room to come up and "train" with his student. No one stepped up and a couple walked out!


it's indeed a bad sign when people walk out of your *seminar*.

I guess it's time to put his *MA curriculum* or *seminar's ticket* on Ebay to see if anybody bids on it.?


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 1, 2004)

Aw, c'mon guys...instead of all this mutual admiration on the internet...why don't we do something constructive...and promote each other to a higher rank!  Who wants to go first!   artyon:


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## Thunderbolt (Dec 1, 2004)

Speaking about *fraud* in kenpo/kempo. Partial blames should go to *some of senior members or founder(s)* for letting this happen.

After all, if I were Chow or Mitose or any *famous* GM or FOUNDER and I told you to stop *selling* or *giving* high rank for $$$$$, would you dare to ignore me.???? Absolutely not.

Since some people have 1 eye OPEN and 1 eye CLOSE, i guess other *people* mistakenly think it's OK to do SO. 

The last thing we know is everything is out of control.

No hard feeling and NO disrespect intent to *high profile* persons.

I only offer my 2 cents.


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## tmonis (Dec 1, 2004)

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> Speaking about *fraud* in kenpo/kempo. Partial blames should go to *some of senior members or founder(s)* for letting this happen.
> 
> After all, if I were Chow or Mitose or any *famous* GM or FOUNDER and I told you to stop *selling* or *giving* high rank for $$$$$, would you dare to ignore me.???? Absolutely not.
> 
> ...


Thunderbolt I respectfully agree with you. No disrespect intended. however when you see 1st generation Black Belts selling tapes and offering video ranking. It boils down to a couple of things. 1. It is all about the money 2. I kinda look at them as being has beens. It is a real shame to see one of Mr. Parker's 1st Black belts selling rank by video. They all have them out now. GM Villari, Prof. Ibrao, GM Tatum, and on and on and on. No doubt these Grandmasters are everything they say and have proved themselves time and time again. They are world champions and everything else. Why, after all the years of hard work you put into the Martial Arts, would you sell Black Belt ranking via video. There are alot of things that can be missed on video. 
No disrepsect intended but I just don't understand. $$$$$$$


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## Thunderbolt (Dec 1, 2004)

tmonis said:
			
		

> Thunderbolt I respectfully agree with you. No disrespect intended. however when you see 1st generation Black Belts selling tapes and offering video ranking. It boils down to a couple of things. 1. It is all about the money 2. I kinda look at them as being has beens. It is a real shame to see one of Mr. Parker's 1st Black belts selling rank by video. They all have them out now. GM Villari, Prof. Ibrao, GM Tatum, and on and on and on. No doubt these Grandmasters are everything they say and have proved themselves time and time again. They are world champions and everything else. Why, after all the years of hard work you put into the Martial Arts, would you sell Black Belt ranking via video. There are alot of things that can be missed on video.
> No disrepsect intended but I just don't understand. $$$$$$$


i'm glad that I am not the ONLY one who thinks that way. Great minds think alike.??? LOL.

I watched "Alexander-the great" movie last weekend. I remember Alexander said to his soldiers "fame and money make MAN weak."


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## tmonis (Dec 1, 2004)

They say it is the root of all evil. I take Karazenpo's stand on it all. I would rather close the doors to my school then sell out my reputation for a few dollars. I agree with him that there alot more people out there with more money than I in the martial arts. But I am all about spreading the knowledge, not trying to make a million dollars. I am proud to say that every Black Belt I have ever awarded has earned every piece of it through blood, sweat, and tears. Countless hours of training etc. No one will ever be able to say it was a cake walk with me.


Prof. Todd


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## James Kovacich (Dec 1, 2004)

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> it's indeed a bad sign when people walk out of your *seminar*.
> 
> I guess it's time to put his *MA curriculum* or *seminar's ticket* on Ebay to see if anybody bids on it.?



LOL.

I think I understand "why" he has attitude.


----------



## TChase (Dec 1, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> However, I'll gladly close my doors before I compromise my priniciples and after three decades in the arts there are MANY who have much more money than I do, and for that, I am PROUD!, lol.


I wish there were more like you still left in Kenpo/Kempo.  :asian:


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## TChase (Dec 1, 2004)

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> i'm glad that I am not the ONLY one who thinks that way. Great minds think alike.??? LOL.


No you're not the only.  There's still a few out there who agree with you...me being one.


----------



## John Bishop (Dec 1, 2004)

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> Speaking about *fraud* in kenpo/kempo. Partial blames should go to *some of senior members or founder(s)* for letting this happen.
> 
> After all, if I were Chow or Mitose or any *famous* GM or FOUNDER and I told you to stop *selling* or *giving* high rank for $$$$$, would you dare to ignore me.???? Absolutely not.


I have to disagree. They would simply start their "own" system, make themselves 10th degrees, and sell all the video ranks they can. 
Ego and greed knows no bounds.


----------



## tmonis (Dec 1, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> I have to disagree. They would simply start their "own" system, make themselves 10th degrees, and sell all the video ranks they can.
> Ego and greed knows no bounds.


John,

You do have a point there. Greed is what is all about when it comes down to it to them. What happened to Respect and Honor?


----------



## Karazenpo (Dec 1, 2004)

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> Speaking about *fraud* in kenpo/kempo. Partial blames should go to *some of senior members or founder(s)* for letting this happen.
> 
> After all, if I were Chow or Mitose or any *famous* GM or FOUNDER and I told you to stop *selling* or *giving* high rank for $$$$$, would you dare to ignore me.???? Absolutely not.
> 
> ...



Yes, Thunderbolt , I agree with you but John Bishop has a point also, egos and greed are so big  that they won't listen anymore, but not only that, they don't FEAR because the way society is now, who can't really go after someone physically for this and not be prosecuted. The respect is long gone and legally, there's no intimidation factor anymore, they would say as they do to police offciers these days: Go ahead and try it! Do it! And I'll have your badge and sue your sorry ***!  Tom Chase, thank you very much for your support on my beliefs, I sincerely appreciate that, thank you again! "Joe"


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## KenpoDave (Dec 1, 2004)

tmonis said:
			
		

> They say it is the root of all evil. I take Karazenpo's stand on it all. I would rather close the doors to my school then sell out my reputation for a few dollars. I agree with him that there alot more people out there with more money than I in the martial arts. But I am all about spreading the knowledge, not trying to make a million dollars. I am proud to say that every Black Belt I have ever awarded has earned every piece of it through blood, sweat, and tears. Countless hours of training etc. No one will ever be able to say it was a cake walk with me.Prof. Todd



Money is A root of all evil, not THE root.  John Bishop mentions a few such as ego and greed.  Fame.

Perhaps if people would stop watering the roots... :asian:


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## Thunderbolt (Dec 2, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> I have to disagree. They would simply start their "own" system, make themselves 10th degrees, and sell all the video ranks they can.
> Ego and greed knows no bounds.


We have a different oppinion on this issue. I still think that *top* people should be responsible for this kind of thing.

Where do people get their 8,9,10 th degree from.? The answer is *top* people. A 3rd degree BB guy can't get 8 th degree from 1 degree BB guy, right.??? I mean in term of *RECOGNIZATION* and *ACCOMPLISHMENT*

If you are a founder of a system and you see this kind of thing happen in your *own* system and you don't do anything about it, your *leadership* sure speaks for itself.

if you are senior members of a system and you don't enforce the rules in the system, what kind of senior members are you.?

*low* rank members will always look up to *senior members* and *founder*. If these two fail to do what they suppose to do, you can image how bad these *low* rank members are.

Sure Ego and greed knows no bouds BUT *top* people are the one who need to say STOP.

You can have a big ego and greed BUT if NOBODY gives you what you WANT, can you have what you want.?

A kid wants to buy a toy BUT if his parents say NO, you think that kid will have a toy.????? Absolutely not.

That is the bottom line.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 2, 2004)

No Thunderbolt...it's more like the Academy Awards or the Grammy's.  Self-congratulation and promotion applauded and supported by other peers.

And I don't think it is necessarily driven by money.  When someone invests all their energy for 20 or 30 years into a pursuit, they wan't some recognition.


----------



## Karazenpo (Dec 2, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> No Thunderbolt...it's more like the Academy Awards or the Grammy's.  Self-congratulation and promotion applauded and supported by other peers.
> 
> And I don't think it is necessarily driven by money.  When someone invests all their energy for 20 or 30 years into a pursuit, they wan't some recognition.



EGO, EGO, EGO!


----------



## tmonis (Dec 2, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> No Thunderbolt...it's more like the Academy Awards or the Grammy's. Self-congratulation and promotion applauded and supported by other peers.
> 
> And I don't think it is necessarily driven by money. When someone invests all their energy for 20 or 30 years into a pursuit, they wan't some recognition.


Recognition, self congratulation, and promotion applauded by your peers after working hard for 20-30 years, testing before a panel of your peers and earning your title is a wonderful thing. That is the way it should be. And for the most part is the way it is done. However what we are talking about is the guy who gets promoted to 1st Dan in 1994 and by 2004 he is a 9th Dan. Or the guy that sends in a video tape and gets promoted without ever training with the Grandmaster who promoted him/her. Or how about the airplane promotions everyone has spoke of. I must have been in the dark on that one. I didn't even know that had happened. My hats off to the MA's that have earned it the hard way. The ones that make a bad name for everyone else are the Frauds out there. This guy claimed to have been a private student of Prof. Cerio back in the day and could not even tell me where he lived. Sad part is this guy has managed to suck up to a very well known Grandmaster and they are traveling all over the U.S. promoting people. People they have never even trained with. A one day seminar and bam your an 8th degree.


----------



## Thunderbolt (Dec 2, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Self-congratulation and promotion applauded and supported by other peers.


you mean the same *peers* who received their 8,9 dan in 4 years.?

is it a wonderful thing when you know everybody else did it in the same group.?

let's get together and *promote* each other. it's fun


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 2, 2004)

Look guys...I think the practice is terrible!!!  My very first post on the MartialTalk and on the KenpoNet was a satirical analysis of the practice entitled "It's time to Promote the Kenpo Seniors".  I have a link to that thread on page 3 of this thread.

Now, having said that...if anyone wants to offer me a 9th or 10th degree here on Martial Talk, I'd be happy to reciprocate. artyon:


----------



## Toasty (Dec 2, 2004)

You know all this "rank" and "political" crap area among the reasons why I have nothing to do with kenpo anymore.

Heck, even when i thought i asked a pretty straight forward opinion-type question, I had to "define" it like 3 times cause kenpo guys seem to always overthink things. 
Props again by the way to (i believe it was) Karazenpo for actually answering it!

Why is everyone so concerned about who is higher and according to who?

Let me ask you this, who promoted Mr. Parker to his 2nd thru 10th rankings?

Who promoted Mr. Chow to his rankings?

Who promoted Mr. Mitose to his rankings?


And on a somewhat more serious note, is there really a difference (that anyone could tell {without looking at the stripes} between a 5th & 6th degree blackbelt?  How about 6th or 7th degree?)

P.S. Doc, this does not necessarily refer to whomever you are speaking of, but I think that it is possible for a student to learn & understand an art better than the founder (especially if the founder is deceased). 
Here is why, by the reasoning that it took the founder of the art/style a series of trial & error experiments (for lack of a better term) whereas, for the student, this learning curve is greatly reduced and he/she can concentrate on the art itself and getting better at something that already exists.
Actually isn't that the goal of the martial arts teacher? To make the student better than the teacher?

anyway, just my thoughts
Rob


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## James Kovacich (Dec 2, 2004)

Toasty said:
			
		

> Actually isn't that the goal of the martial arts teacher? To make the student better than the teacher?
> 
> anyway, just my thoughts
> Rob


EXACTLY!


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## Doc (Dec 2, 2004)

Toasty said:
			
		

> You know all this "rank" and "political" crap area among the reasons why I have nothing to do with kenpo anymore.
> 
> Heck, even when i thought i asked a pretty straight forward opinion-type question, I had to "define" it like 3 times cause kenpo guys seem to always overthink things.
> Props again by the way to (i believe it was) Karazenpo for actually answering it!
> ...



While I understand your point, and believe me I have no problem with the student ultimately excelling beyond his teacher, (that's what teachers and parents are supposed to do), but as usual, I choose my words carefully. I may excel beyond my teacher, in this case Ed Parker, but my rank should not advance any faster than his did in HIS art. I may become acceptable at what I do, but nobody will ever understand Ed Parker's Art better than he did himself. Most of these GM's, 10ths, masters, etc. made their rank faster Than Parker. We tend to think of him as always being a 10th, but in fact he held that rank for a relatively short period before he passed away.


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## Toasty (Dec 2, 2004)

I see what you mean.  
Thanks for responding Doc.



see ya
Rob


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## Karazenpo (Dec 2, 2004)

Excellent points from both Doc and Toasty.


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## Dionysianexile (Dec 2, 2004)

Well, this is a big topic for my first post here, but im going to try anyways.

 I am quite new to the system, been in it less than a year.  I am currently training under Professor Graham Lelliot.  Mr. Lelliot has been in the system for a long time, and had his black belt longer than Ive been alive (Im 20 btw).  Anyways, a few of the students asked him about black belt ranking one night, and inquired as to why he is only 6th degree when ther are others who have their 9th that started training after he recieved his BB.  Mr. Lelliot told us about how BB advancements happened, and that he figured he could probably go before a board and do his thing and they would advance him, but he didnt see any necessity for it.  He also told us that these younger and less experianced BBs stand out at tournaments, as they are quite timid, and often afraid to actually get out on the floor.  I guess what im getting at is that what it comes down to, is that no matter how much red is on your belt, it is how one conducts themself, and what they can offer their community.  As a student in the system, I believe that a person with a BB is supposed to be a teacher, and as a student, I try to learn as much as possible from my teacher.  If my teacher cannot conduct themselves in an honorable manner, I cannot see myself maintaining respect for them.  Thankfully, Mr. Lelliot has been nothing more than an excellent teacher.  Ok, im done.

 P.S. I look forward to learning from you all.  Thank you.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Dec 2, 2004)

As the years have dripped by, I've sat in the shadows and watched some really incredible kenpo instructors never advance their rank, because their personal instructors have passed on to the next life, retired, or some such thing. I've also watched guys with credentials like, "Kenpo green belt; judo black belt (1st degree)" move on to found their own styles as 10th degree black belts in stuff like "American ju-kenpo", lacking advanced understandings of either.

Martial artists who use their standing in community for vocational purposes will always have a motivation for wearing a rank that's one stripe higher than the next guy in the yellow pages. The uninformed public looking for classes does not know how to differentiate the quality of training from the purported expertise of the trainer. So they look for the guy with the most/highest certs on the wall. This will always be a problem.

The opposite extreme is occupied by folks who have exceeded the status on their belts, but because they train in small, unaffiliated circles, will never promote. Curiously, these are usually the guys who couldn't care less about promoting...they would take more pride in being a seriously kick-a$s 3rd degree then a crappy 10th.

I will probably die at the same rank I am now, and I'm more than OK with that. I haven't gotten better with time; I've gotten slower and more unrehearsed. As I get back into it and knock the rust off the hinges, I may get back to (or perhaps surpass) where I was when I left off. That will, in my eyes, only make me not a fool. If I can get back to being really freaking good at what I know, and clean it up with learning from some of the most excellent seniors I have the pleasure to be acquainted with, I can die happy and with my honor intact knowing that I wore my middlin' stripes with pride.

Pride and ego alone are not bad things. It's in where you place it. 

I find my pride in being the best I can with what I know, and being able to "represent" capably. Currently, not too proud, because I'm seriously outta shape and outta practice (though I can still give the upstart youngsters a run for their money ;-). But I still have a gift of knowledge and information to pass on to upcoming generations beginning their journeys...of that, I'm proud. 

Ego is what drives us to be bold participants in the field of competition in which we make our respective livings (how successful are sales reps who aren't full of themselves?). I would encourage some of you to consider that the traits compelling these men to do what they have are not innately bad, but rather only the individual choices on how to present these traits. Don't bemoan ego or pride in the arts...it's what drives champions to make arts famous enough to gain public interest for propogations sake, and instructors confident enough to stick it out there and share their knowledge with other people...like you and I. Bemoan instead the outliers who buy *too much* of their own BS. That's how this silliness gets started.

Dr. Dave


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## Doc (Dec 3, 2004)

Dionysianexile said:
			
		

> Well, this is a big topic for my first post here, but im going to try anyways.
> 
> I am quite new to the system, been in it less than a year.  I am currently training under Professor Graham Lelliot.  Mr. Lelliot has been in the system for a long time, and had his black belt longer than Ive been alive (Im 20 btw).  Anyways, a few of the students asked him about black belt ranking one night, and inquired as to why he is only 6th degree when ther are others who have their 9th that started training after he recieved his BB.  Mr. Lelliot told us about how BB advancements happened, and that he figured he could probably go before a board and do his thing and they would advance him, but he didnt see any necessity for it.  He also told us that these younger and less experianced BBs stand out at tournaments, as they are quite timid, and often afraid to actually get out on the floor.  I guess what im getting at is that what it comes down to, is that no matter how much red is on your belt, it is how one conducts themself, and what they can offer their community.  As a student in the system, I believe that a person with a BB is supposed to be a teacher, and as a student, I try to learn as much as possible from my teacher.  If my teacher cannot conduct themselves in an honorable manner, I cannot see myself maintaining respect for them.  Thankfully, Mr. Lelliot has been nothing more than an excellent teacher.  Ok, im done.
> 
> P.S. I look forward to learning from you all.  Thank you.



You're with a good teacher and a good man. Tell him Ron Chapél said hey.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 3, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> As the years have dripped by, I've sat in the shadows and watched some really incredible kenpo instructors never advance their rank, because their personal instructors have passed on to the next life, retired, or some such thing. I've also watched guys with credentials like, "Kenpo green belt; judo black belt (1st degree)" move on to found their own styles as 10th degree black belts in stuff like "American ju-kenpo", lacking advanced understandings of either.
> 
> Martial artists who use their standing in community for vocational purposes will always have a motivation for wearing a rank that's one stripe higher than the next guy in the yellow pages. The uninformed public looking for classes does not know how to differentiate the quality of training from the purported expertise of the trainer. So they look for the guy with the most/highest certs on the wall. This will always be a problem.
> 
> ...



True, Dr. Dave. Everyone of us has an ego and it is ego that drives us to do good things, however, we all should be able to 'control and harness' that ego, that's when character steps in........ with some, ego is out of control and that is when problems arise. Ego is how we see ourselves, character is how others see us. Respectfully, Professor Joe


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## kenpoworks (Dec 3, 2004)

"EGO" a small word that casts a big shadow.

check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego#The_Ego for further insights into this tricky often used word.
Respectfully
Richi


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## tmonis (Dec 3, 2004)

Hello Everyone,

It seems I am taking a lot of personal heat on this post about who I am refering to when I started this. It seems I have stepped on a few toes with this one. This was not my intention. And I am of the opinion if this is not they way you were promoted then there should not be a problem. However do to legal reasons I still will not tell you the name of who I refer to in this posting. But I tell you what lead me to this discussion. 
I was surfing the web one night and ran across this Guy who lives in Iowa that claimed he was and had been a private student of the late Prof. Nick Cerio. Which was fine with me. Coming from a Prof. Cerio / Villari background I began a conversation with him to find out if I had in fact knew him or not. But as the conversation drug on I realized this guy was a fraud. He claim that Prof. Cerio had promoted him to 1st Dan in 1994 and because he was so good in Kenpo he was promoted by him again to 9th Dan in 2004. *Do any flags go up for you at this point?* Was he promoted from the Grave?I called him out on it and more or less told him he was lying about the whole thing. I asked where, when, and how he had trained with Prof. Cerio. He could not even tell me where Prof. Cerio lived in the Northeast. Let alone who his Instructor was etc. I then again told him he was lying. He then admitted to me that he had actually sent in a video tape to him and was promoted that way. I have never known Prof. Cerio to do that. Lying again. He then proceeded to tell me that it did matter what I thought because he had the backing a very well known Grandmaster ( Legally again I will mention any names) and that he had given him a rank of recognition to 9th Dan based on Prof. Cerio's certificate. (Fraud) and that they were traveling doing seminars together to promote Kenpo across the Country. The Grandmaster he travels with can in fact do that. Put this guy is a joke.
I did not mean to step on anyone toes on here. And if I offend you in any way, I am truly sorry. However once again if you did not get promoted the same way this guy did. Then I really don't see why anyone would be upset with me. I am not pointing any fingers at any particular group. I am only stating you have to be very careful about who you associate with. There are alot of phony people out there. It seems I have also learned this the hard way as well. I too have been pulled in many directions since I have been in Kenpo. The politics really suck. I have met a whole lot of people with hidden agendas, phony people, really great people and true to the art kind of people. If you can weed through the BS, Kenpo is a really awesome thing to learn and behold.

Respectfully and Humbly

Prof. Todd Monis.:asian:


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## distalero (Dec 4, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> As the years have dripped by, I've sat in the shadows and watched some really incredible kenpo instructors never advance their rank, because their personal instructors have passed on to the next life, retired, or some such thing. I've also watched guys with credentials like, "Kenpo green belt; judo black belt (1st degree)" move on to found their own styles as 10th degree black belts in stuff like "American ju-kenpo", lacking advanced understandings of either.
> 
> Martial artists who use their standing in community for vocational purposes will always have a motivation for wearing a rank that's one stripe higher than the next guy in the yellow pages. The uninformed public looking for classes does not know how to differentiate the quality of training from the purported expertise of the trainer. So they look for the guy with the most/highest certs on the wall. This will always be a problem.
> 
> ...


It occurs to me that pride is most often (maybe always) more a self made value judgement of, and frequently a more or less subtle justification of, acts arisen out of an ego; may or may not be justified, but as such it's removed from the reality of the situation, pretty much an author/actor/audience of one, potentially not so good in a contest of two. "Pride goeth before a fall", says the old saying; "Don't look back", says the song; "Just do it", says Nike, "Your bill, Sir", says reality.


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## dogboy (Dec 5, 2004)

You are right, 3/4 of the kenpo guys claiming rank have gone up several degrees in the last 2 or 3 years.


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## dogboy (Dec 5, 2004)

Karazenpo is one of the worst offenders.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 5, 2004)

dogboy said:
			
		

> Karazenpo is one of the worst offenders.



Well, well, Dogboy. So you surface again. First it was on Nick Cerio's Kenpo forum, then the Kajukenbo Cafe, and finally your poison e-mails to Grandmaster S. George Pesare of which I replied after Gm. Pesare forwarded it to me and I asked you to either face the man with your allegations or at least reveal your identity of which you did neither. NOW, you can accuse whoever you want about abuse of rank, fraud and as you stated in a previous post 'jumping up degrees' but when it comes to me, YOU BETTER HELL GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT! I shouldn't have to defend myself but just to show those who are unaware of my history I will. Listen closely, my friend. I have been in the martial arts for going on 32 years in 2005. On May 19th, 1992 I was promoted to 6th dan and bestowed w/ the title of shihan by the late Professor Nick Cerio in Warwick, R.I. Go to his website, I'm on the tree along with my wife Kathy. After that, I, too, got fed up with the abuse of rank I was seeing and watching others who were shooting ahead of me in rank. I developed a very negative attitude about dan rankings and never went up again of my own volition until April 13th, 2003  while training at Gm. S. George Pesare's Kaito Gakko and that was for my 7th dan, yes, 11 YEARS AFTER MY 6TH DAN I WAS PROMOTED 7TH AND STILL HAVE THAT RANKING. Hanshi Craig Seavey, co-head of Nick Cerio's Kenpo talked me into changing my attitude because he felt I was biting my nose to spite my face as they say. Now, since then, I have received other promotions and recognitions of rank including personally from Sijo Victor 'Sonny' Gascon BUT THEY WERE ALL FOR WHAT I ALREADY HAD, 7TH DEGREE BLACK BELT....NOW, WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND, DOGBOY? To my brothers and sisters on Martialtalk, I have dogboy's e-mails in my saved documents (see, you never know when you're going to need documentation.......I learned a lot in 28 years as a police offcier, lol), I will retrieve what ever I saved and will post it on this forum. Open challenge to dogboy: Come meet me in Milford, we'll go to my school and I will be most happy to allow you to view my certficates. One of the moderators on Martialtalk has visited me and watched a class, Sheldon, a helluva a nice guy.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 5, 2004)

Here's my response back in July of 2003 to dogboy's poison e-mails to Gm. Pesare. He used three handles, either dogboy, bigdog or annonymous:




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 From :  Joseph Shuras <jshuras@hotmail.com> 
Sent :  Thursday, July 3, 2003 8:11 PM 
To :  jshuras@hotmail.com 
Subject :  Fwd: Dog boy 

  |  |  | joes docum... | Inbox 






Dog boy, 'Big Dog', Anonymous, obviously you are are a dog, but none like I have ever owned because you have your tail between your legs and are 'petrified' of revealing who you are. If you have a problem with Mr. Pesare and doubt his abilities in the arts why do you hide like a weasel, a spineless coward, and don't approach him , mano-mano, in case your limited education can't decipher what that means, its MAN TO MAN! Something I doubt you know the meaning of. Myself, being very fond of dogs, I feel it is an insult to refer to you in some of your handles, so I will refer to you as "Missy", and I'm sure you'll figure out what I am implying. 

Missy, first of all realize, I have been in law enforcement for nearly 27 years so if I want to really 'dig' I can trace your three IP's, yeah, surprise, like I couldn't figure out you're the same person who posted on the Nick Cerio forum and the Kajukenbo Cafe, like I don't know that Mr. Pesare's mailing list may turn up your identity, hello? I asked you nicely and signed it respectively submitted and was willing to hear you out and discuss YOUR PROBLEM, REMEMBER YOU'RE THE A-HOLE THAT E-MAILED ME, I didn't e-mail you. Now, I ask for a response and your identification and you cower. So, here's the deal, you come see me. I'm easy to find, I'm a police officer in Milford, Massachusetts, don't look in the phone book because my elderly father has the same name and if you bother him I will hunt you down like the dog you are, sorry about that, I have respect for dogs, MISSY. I am willing to discuss your problem civilly but if you are that scared then I ask that you take me off your mailing list and don't clutter my inbox with your garbage. Got it, a-hole!



>From: "dog boy" 
>To: ,,,,,,, 
>Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 14:19:09 -0400 
>  

 The only thing I touched on this was I had to change one of my 'descriptive' adjectives to a-hole for this forum, lol. Joe


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## dogboy (Dec 5, 2004)

I too have the documentation, the message I sent back then (July 2003), that you are referring to was one written personally by Mr. Gascon to Mr. Pesare, and sent to several others as a copy.  I DIDN'T WRITE THE OFFENSIVE OR ACCUSATIOAL CONTENT, I simply asked what he (Mr. Pesare) thought about it.  Why he had you respond to it, I don't know.  Again, I didn't write it, he did.  So, if he promoted you (Mr. Gascon), then you should believe what he wrote.  I won't post it here, because it is very negative to Mr. Pesare, and I DO have a lot of respect for Mr. Pesare. However, my friends in RI tell he isn't pleased with you anymore.  George Pesare is one of the most respected me in New England when it comes to martial arts, whether Gascon made him a whatever doesn't even matter.  I would study with Mr. Pesare even if he said he created all of his material.  

I have heard several stories of Karazenpo promoting people, only to take it away later, or to start a negative campaign about the person.  

I have no beef with you on a personal level.  This is a forum, where any and all opinions can and should be discussed, and you shouldn't becaome offensive about them.  My opinion is as stated.

Relative to viewing your certificates : )  I don't actually care what certificates you have.  But I would like to meet you.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 5, 2004)

dogboy said:
			
		

> I too have the documentation, the message I sent back then (July 2003), that you are referring to was one written personally by Mr. Gascon to Mr. Pesare, and sent to several others as a copy.  I DIDN'T WRITE THE OFFENSIVE OR ACCUSATIOAL CONTENT, I simply asked what he (Mr. Pesare) thought about it.  Why he had you respond to it, I don't know.  Again, I didn't write it, he did.  So, if he promoted you (Mr. Gascon), then you should believe what he wrote.  I won't post it here, because it is very negative to Mr. Pesare, and I DO have a lot of respect for Mr. Pesare. However, my friends in RI tell he isn't pleased with you anymore.  George Pesare is one of the most respected me in New England when it comes to martial arts, whether Gascon made him a whatever doesn't even matter.  I would study with Mr. Pesare even if he said he created all of his material.
> 
> I have heard several stories of Karazenpo promoting people, only to take it away later, or to start a negative campaign about the person.
> 
> ...




Okay, let's start over, I have no problem with that but first let me get a few things out of the way. You stated: "I have heard several stories of Karazenpo promoting people, only to take it away later, or to start a negative campaign about the person." 

I say: I have never, ever recinded a rank. Check out my family tree of black belts on the Kenponet, they are all there. I do, however, have it written on all certificates that I reserve the right to recind the rank. My only reason for that is what I have seen happen to some martial artists who got into serious trouble with the law, I mean serious! So, as a police officer I do have obligations and responsibilites, so if I do have a 'bad apple' in the future, I would recind such rank as to make a statement that criminal behavior by my students is not tolerated. So, now, we can put that one to sleep.

You stated: "However, my friends in RI tell he isn't pleased with you anymore." 

I say: Yes, Gm. Pesare and myself, and this is how he told me to phrase it if anyone asked, "We had a personal disagreement and that's between him and I."  I will add only this so no one jumps to any conclusions, it was a 'political' disagreement that snowballed, regrettable but it happened. Sigung John Bishop can vouch for me that it was no more than that. My wife Kathy is still on very good terms with Gm. Pesare. She just brought our students to his "Best of the Best" tournament just last October. So, you see, it's just something between George and I that couldn't be worked out and we went our seperate ways but I still show respect for the man and don't discourage my wife at all from keeping her relationship with him, that would be immature. She is invited by him personally to all his functions both social and martial arts. Believe me, it was Gm. Pesare that was not at all happy with your e-mails, trust me on that one! 


You wrote: I too have the documentation, the message I sent back then (July 2003), that you are referring to was one written personally by Mr. Gascon to Mr. Pesare.

 I say: Okay, yes, it was over an e-mail from Sijo that was forwarded to various people. They did have a 'blowout' but, as a moderator on the Kajukenbo Cafe under Kajukenbo's Extended family I had posted something positive on George Pesare. You replied with sarcastic remark that I agree with you it shouldn't be posted again, and then you ended it with: "That's not Kajukenbo to me". If you don't remember, just go back to the Cafe, it's still there. Then, you kept posting it when Nick Cerio's Kenpo used to have their discussion forum and the webmaster kept deleting it with a nice explaination to you but you posted again and made reference to his decision to delete. All in all, it sounded very much like you were upset with him and very sarcastic not to mention you also forwarded that e-mail to numerous people, we have record of that also. Perhaps, you've changed your attitude and that's fine but we only acted on what we read and it wasn't nice!

You stated about Gm. Pesare: "I would study with Mr. Pesare even if he said he created all of his material."

I say: No, not true. Mr. Pesare did add much to the Karazenpo system he taught but not all. His basics came from Sijo, the 1-5 forms that are called katas in Shaolin Kempo Karate and the numerous 'original' techniques referred to as combinations along with a lot of mat work (Judo) all came from Sijo Gascon to Gm. Pesare. 

Last, but not least, I have no personal problem with you either since we never met but you do stand corrected on that  erroneous statement you made about me, I hope I got my point across on that and made myself perfectly clear because that one hurt!, lol. I'm not vindicative and don't hold grudges and as stated in my first e-mail to you in 2003, I'd be happy to meet up with you. Just do me a favor, call the Milford Police Dept., ask for my extention (voice mail) and leave me a call back number I can reach you at.

Take care & Be safe, Professor Joe


PS: We do have one more policy that maybe someone got confused and my wife is now the main 'enforcer' of that one. If someone misbehaves, screws around in class or in the school period, gets lax on their training or we get a parent complaint or one from their school teacher, Kathy does take their belts and holds them for a while in the office until they make ammends to the problem, but, unless they quit, they eventually get them back. Until then they wear 'no belt'. We never take the certificates back for these minor infractions. Also, if someone is away for a while and they don't feel comfortable wearing their rank, they wear no rank until caught up. I got this idea from Gm. Pesare when I was training their for the first time in the 70's only there, it was the rule, it wasn't an option.


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## tmonis (Dec 5, 2004)

Gentlemen,

This is such non-sense. The Person I am refering to does not come from an organization that I reconize. He claims to have been a private student of Prof. Cerio. That is why I e-mailed him to see if I had trained with him. He never made claims about Prof. Shuras, Sijo Gascon's or anyone in the Karazenpo group at all. Hell he didn't even know about Prof. Cerio's organization from back in the day. He did not claim anything like that about any other organization what so ever. He was from Iowa. From an organization out there. I never heard of it and unfortuntely I deleted his e-mail with it on it. I am not in good standing with the Karazenpo group any more due to politics and friendships, however the truth is the truth. He never made claims to have belong to Karazenpo, George Pesare, NEKICK, Ed Parker or anyone other than Prof. Cerio. In my opinion. He was really trying to promote himself. No one else. 
Please stop pointing fingers at other groups or organizations. They all have a common purpose. Most of them just want to help the small Kenpo school owner giving them a place to belong or help them out with seminars,testing, fellowship or whatever. Yes there are some real bad ones out there that only want your money. I know there are friends promoting friends to high places etc. But all in all, I feel that most people are good at heart and in there mind they really just want to help. My sole purpose for having started this posting was to simply state that there are frauds out there and that they are practicing promotions really quickly. So before you join one of them you need to do your research first. I really wished I would have kept my opinion to myself now and just let whomever follow whomever and if you got stung by a bad person then so be it. But I was only trying to help.
This is Boo!!!


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## Seig (Dec 5, 2004)

Admin Warning

Keep the conversation polite and respectful.
Seig
MT Ops Admin


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 5, 2004)

Gentelmen we seem to have drifted from the original question.  Lets not make this a personal warring area. Lets just ( if we must) disscuss how somwone in any organisation might jump in rank that fast.
 Other than a GM seeing something so outstanding in a person that HE decides to make that person responsible for the system upon His death I see no reason for such a jump in rank. Sometimes a spark might be seen that would make a GM say "this is who I want to run things" but I doubt that has happened often. I am leaveing room for doubt as there may be other considerations.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 5, 2004)

Seig & tshadowchaser, Sorry guys but my back was to the wall on that one. I mean, I was 11 years from 6th to 7th, so for someone to mistakenly apply that post to me, really pressed my buttons and that is why I was so strong on my response. Professor Nick Cerio had a favorite saying: "Do what you have to do" and I guess I did, lol. As you know, that is out of character for me on this or any other forum. However, I feel it all worked out in the end by hashing it out a little, sometimes it works out for the best that way. I apologize for any breach in etiquette. I wish no hard feelings with anyone. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras


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## Karazenpo (Dec 5, 2004)

Hello to all, I had someone suggest to me (a member of this forum) that the post that 'ruffled my feathers', so to speak, was not mean't toward me 'directly', as my handle or username is 'Karazenpo', however, it is also clearly in my signature that I hold the office of Massachusetts president of Sijo's Gascon's Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu Black Belt Society and I have also had negative dealings with that poster before, there's a history here. Please understand that I have the same devotion, love and respect to Sijo Gascon as the AK people have for Mr. Parker and Mr. Tatum, the Kajukenbo people have for Sijo Emperado, the Kosho Shorei ryu people have for Gm. Thomas and Hanshi Juchnik and the Tracy people do for Gm. Al Tracy. Like all of you have come to the defense of you and yours, I do mine. I am no different. I just wanted all of you to know that. I said what I felt I had to say and tomorro's another day....I hold no malice or ill will toward that individual. Thank you. Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras


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## Karazenpo (Dec 5, 2004)

I just received a nice private e-mail from dogboy confirming that he didn't mean me personally. I totally respect the fact that he would take the time to send an apology of which I accept. I explained myself in the above post that a slap to one is a slap to all, so I won't get into that again but as far as we're both concerned it's  all water under the bridge or is it over the dam, well, anyway, it's forgotten!, lol..


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## Thunderbolt (Dec 5, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> I just received a nice private e-mail from dogboy confirming that he didn't mean me personally. I totally respect the fact that he would take the time to send an apology of which I accept. I explained myself in the above post that a slap to one is a slap to all, so I won't get into that again but as far as we're both concerned it's all water under the bridge or is it over the dam, well, anyway, it's forgotten!, lol..


i'm glad that the problem is solved peacefully WITHOUT igniting anything else. I guess you and another HANDLED it well. I wish everybody is like you.

Hopefully, your success in dealing this issue will be a subject to be studied by others for many years to come. 

have a nice weekend.


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## getgoin (Dec 5, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> I just received a nice private e-mail from dogboy confirming that he didn't mean me personally. I totally respect the fact that he would take the time to send an apology of which I accept.


Thats stand up, on both sides.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 5, 2004)

Thanks guys. I appreciate your kind words on this and I'm sure he does too. I put in a good word to tshadowchaser if he could talk to the administrator and get dogboy's account reinstated. I just wish he'd change his username, everytime I use it I feel like I'm on an S&M forum, lol, and don't go asking me how I'd know what that felt like! LOL, LOL. Respectfully, Professor Joe


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 5, 2004)

I've reactivated DogBoys account.  Thank you gentlemen for the public air-clearing.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 5, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> I've reactivated DogBoys account.  Thank you gentlemen for the public air-clearing.



Thank you, Sir!


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Dec 6, 2004)

tmonis said:
			
		

> Without mentioning any names, Please explain to me how a well known martial artist can be promoted to 1st Dan in1994 and then be promoted to 9th by 2003. And has only had a school for about 3 years from 1994-1997. Gave it up and his only job to the Martial Arts now is be a figure head of an organization.
> 
> I guess it comes back to not what you know, but who you know in this case. Maybe if I work real hard sucking up I can become a 10th Dan in about a year or so to.
> 
> Is it just me or does that sound real fishy to you?:idunno:


Dude, you really don't have a lot of wiggle room yourself in this area.    You created your own style,  was there something wrong with the one you were studying to begin with that you had to create yet another?

DarK LorD


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## tmonis (Dec 6, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Dude, you really don't have a lot of wiggle room yourself in this area. You created your own style, was there something wrong with the one you were studying to begin with that you had to create yet another? DarK LorD


Hello Darklord,

1. No the styles that I studied before are awesome. I would never take anything away from them. I have a Karazenpo / Shaolin Kempo / Hakkoryu Ju Jitsu background. If there are two things I enjoy doing in the Martial Arts, that would be Kenpo and Ju Jitsu. So that being said, with a little bit of changing here and there with what I have learned, I managed to combine the two and make it my own with just a few slight differences. It is in in't infancy but there was a enough difference, even just slightly, to be accepted by the Soke Council, North American Grandmasters Council, GM Al C., and my GM Simms to be sent and approvd for Sokeship. Even with that I am not a 10th Dan. 
2. I have been in the Martial Arts for going on 32 years now and have trained with Prof. Cerio, Prof. Godin, Prof. Gascon, GM Simms, Prof. Shuras, Master Corrigan, Master Longacre, and Soke Kuniba and GM Barbara Meyers (Hakkoryu) who trained under Soke Kuniba before his death. All of which, who are still living, would more than likely vouch for me. 
3. This posting was not about any organization. It was about being promoted from 1st Dan to 9th Dan in less than 10 years and trying to let everyone know that there are some real frauds out there. To be careful and do your research. The person I was talking about had made some very serious claims to have been promoted by Prof. Cerio to 9th Dan in 2003-4. It was a lie and I called him out on it. His website does not even connect anymore. So he got the message. 
4. My promotions have all been within a normal time range. And in 32 years I have only made it to 7th. Even with my own style. And to be honest with you, I really don't expect any further. And if I were to be promoted. I am sure it would be before a panel of 9th / 10th Dan. My promotions are well documented from White Belt to 7th Dan and I assure you I earned everyone of them. No one gave me anything at all.
Thank you for your inqury though. And have a great week.

Prof. Todd:asian:


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## Thunderbolt (Dec 6, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Dude, you really don't have a lot of wiggle room yourself in this area. You created your own style, was there something wrong with the one you were studying to begin with that you had to create yet another?
> 
> DarK LorD


you gotta  love "America inovation" thing


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## GAB (Dec 6, 2004)

Hi;

What I see in the MA's today some are leaders, some are follower's.

Some practice one art, others go for 4/5 years and then into another that is newer not necessarily better, just different. New thoughts a change of pace.

I don't like to see to much of the 10th Dan new system, but you sure see alot of it here of late. Many good ones who are not into, the holding back for the sake of making more money, with the few you have and don't want the compitition mentality. 

Again it has an awful lot to do with our society and freedom of movement and for that I am grateful. If it works for you use it if not go a different route.
Lots of roads (path) out there. Path was the old name, not to many roads in the days of origin.

Regards, Gary


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## tmonis (Dec 6, 2004)

GAB: That was nicely put. 

Thunderbolt: Innovation maybe.:idunno: The spreading of something different, ok.
But this was really all by accident. I have been training my class like this for a while and a few people noticed that it was different and suggeted I submit it and see what happens. So I did. Never expecting anything to come of it. Made a detailed manual,got a visit from a few people in the Kenpo World and the Ju Jitsu World,  performed everything in front of a few people and then I got the notices in the mail after a long time between the visits and the notices. So somebody liked what we are doing. Other than that I was very happy doing my own thing in my own little corner of the world. Did not really mean to share it, but it happened that way.

Ok so with no disrepect intended at all to anyone. Because everyone has a right to their own opinions. *I was just wondering.* Does  this usually happen on this forum? When the thread starts to die down, you turn on the person that started it? I was only trying to help that's all. By exposing this one dude that was trying to start something.

Anyway; no hard feelings, *just wondering*. Everyone have a great week.

Prof. Todd:asian:


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## BallistikMike (Dec 6, 2004)

Hmmm....

Didn't Great Grand Master Ed Parker create his own system from Old Pine Tree Kenpo / Kajukenbo and state that he had made enough changes to the original system that it was no longer that system and renamed it "American Kenpo" ?

Didn't Sonny Gascon do the same thing?

How about George Pesare?

or Nick Cerio?

I dont see anything wrong with working for years, being good at what you do and then teaching what works for you. The problem comes from the many , many teachers claiming to be all knowing grand masters. Every single one of them and you and I are still learning, changing, adapting as we grow in what we do. How can any of us be a "Great Grand Master"?  Listen you get that lofty in your self worth and then we do have conflict. 

The greatest teachers I have ever had are the ones who were on the floor with me, trading shots, spilling blood, helping each other up and trusting each other with shots to vital targets so we could LEARN!

When you run a business, run a business. When you run a school run a school. When you combine them something will suffer because its like oil and water they do not mix. Business will increase when set the curriculum up for the mass, business will decrease when you set up the curriculum for knowledge, growth and the production of good fighters. It has always been this way.

A note on Jeff Speakman. I trained with him on two sperate occassions during seminars he put out here in the Chicago area back in the mid 90's and he was a solid 5th BB. He was also a high ranking BB in Goju Ryu? at the time I believe. He knows his stuff. What ever has gone on since then I do not know, but as far as my book goes he is a solid 5th in American Kenpo. No fraud there.


----------



## Doc (Dec 6, 2004)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> Hmmm....
> When you run a business, run a business. When you run a school run a school. When you combine them something will suffer because its like oil and water they do not mix. Business will increase when set the curriculum up for the mass, business will decrease when you set up the curriculum for knowledge, growth and the production of good fighters. It has always been this way.


Damn that was good. That's exactly what Parker did. He created a commercial Kenpo (karate) separate and apart (a diversion) from his personally evolving Kenpo that also continued from the Chinese. The Kenpo that most are familiar with is, naturally, the "business" version from sheer numbers alone. I've always made the distinction between the two, and have often been basted for it. The newbies like to feel what they learned is THE Kenpo instead of A Kenpo. "There's room for everyone to study at the level of their choosing." - Ed Parker Sr.


----------



## TChase (Dec 6, 2004)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> When you run a business, run a business. When you run a school run a school. When you combine them something will suffer because its like oil and water they do not mix. Business will increase when set the curriculum up for the mass, business will decrease when you set up the curriculum for knowledge, growth and the production of good fighters. It has always been this way


 
So very true.  Unfortunate, but true.


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## BallistikMike (Dec 6, 2004)

I would also like to add ....

I did not keep up with the politics of Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo. I do not know who is teaching what system, what off shoot, what have you. I was in fact turned off by the politics off it and went looking for something else. I never found it. I have always been Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo ... it chose me.

I re read my post and it looks like I am bashing or over extending honorship to Ed Parker. I am not. I just wanted to use a title that some use. Others have used the title "Old Man" or just Ed. It is irrelevent and sorry if I offended.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 6, 2004)

tmonis said:
			
		

> Hello Darklord,
> 
> 1. No the styles that I studied before are awesome. I would never take anything away from them. I have a Karazenpo / Shaolin Kempo / Hakkoryu Ju Jitsu background. If there are two things I enjoy doing in the Martial Arts, that would be Kenpo and Ju Jitsu. So that being said, with a little bit of changing here and there with what I have learned, I managed to combine the two and make it my own with just a few slight differences. It is in in't infancy but there was a enough difference, even just slightly, to be accepted by the Soke Council, North American Grandmasters Council, GM Al C., and my GM Simms to be sent and approvd for Sokeship. Even with that I am not a 10th Dan.
> 2. I have been in the Martial Arts for going on 32 years now and have trained with Prof. Cerio, Prof. Godin, Prof. Gascon, GM Simms, Prof. Shuras, Master Corrigan, Master Longacre, and Soke Kuniba and GM Barbara Meyers (Hakkoryu) who trained under Soke Kuniba before his death. All of which, who are still living, would more than likely vouch for me.
> ...



Prof. Todd:  You know, you'd get more respect for your style if you didn't seek to validate it with some council of Soke's.   Because everyone with an internet connection thinks that Soke councils are B.S.  

As far as my personal opinion goes, this is America:  create your own style, wear whatever rank you want.  But, for me, "Soaky" is the condition of my daughter's diaper after a few hours wear and is not a group of people from which I seek validation.


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## getgoin (Dec 6, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> As far as my personal opinion goes, this is America: create your own style, wear whatever rank you want. But, for me, "Soaky" is the condition of my daughter's diaper after a few hours wear and is not a group of people from which I seek validation.


Beautiful


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## Thunderbolt (Dec 6, 2004)

tmonis said:
			
		

> GAB: That was nicely put.
> 
> Thunderbolt: Innovation maybe.:idunno: The spreading of something different, ok.
> But this was really all by accident. I have been training my class like this for a while and a few people noticed that it was different and suggeted I submit it and see what happens. So I did. Never expecting anything to come of it. Made a detailed manual,got a visit from a few people in the Kenpo World and the Ju Jitsu World, performed everything in front of a few people and then I got the notices in the mail after a long time between the visits and the notices. So somebody liked what we are doing. Other than that I was very happy doing my own thing in my own little corner of the world. Did not really mean to share it, but it happened that way.
> ...


Dear Prof. Todd,

I hope you didn't find my previous offensive. I didn't mean that way.! What set America from the rest is INNOVATION. You have your own ideas and put them together and show it to the world.

it's a beautiful thing to do. There is no doubt that you started this thread with a good intention and I am not here to cricitize you for what you do.

Hopefully, we can be cool about it.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord (Dec 6, 2004)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> Hmmm....
> 
> Didn't Great Grand Master Ed Parker create his own system from Old Pine Tree Kenpo / Kajukenbo and state that he had made enough changes to the original system that it was no longer that system and renamed it "American Kenpo" ?
> 
> ...


Ed Parker was a unique student, and took his art beyond anything his teachers had done previously. Personally, I'd be hard pressed to obtain his knowledge of the system enough to create another by the time I die.

Yep, I'm on the floor with students, having my own blood spilled and a very bruised body in the quest for excellence in the people I train, it's the only way I can perceive it. If they step up with me they deserve to have my knowledge, all that I can give them, to make them a better Kenpoist in years to come. Sadly, there are only a few that take me up on the offer. Kenpophobics, scared to become better at what they do and the fear of invalidation that what they do won't work. If it does, I congratulate them, if it doesn't, then the work begins.

DarK LorD


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## tmonis (Dec 6, 2004)

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> Dear Prof. Todd,
> 
> I hope you didn't find my previous offensive. I didn't mean that way.! What set America from the rest is INNOVATION. You have your own ideas and put them together and show it to the world.
> 
> ...


Thunderbolt: We are all good my man. Nothing to worry about.

Old Fat: I did not seek vailadation from anyone, it just came to me. Someone saw what i was doing, they suggested I send it in more or less as dare to see what would happen. I did and then I got a few visits from Kenpo and Ju Jitsu stylist to prove to them what I had was different. They found that it was. So that's what happened. It really does not matter one way or the other. Just know like you I am a student and will always be a student. Training just like everyone else. I would never claim to be as good as all the Senior Grand Masters. 

It is all good everyone. Have a great week.

Prof. Todd


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## GAB (Dec 7, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> Damn that was good. That's exactly what Parker did. He created a commercial Kenpo (karate) separate and apart (a diversion) from his personally evolving Kenpo that also continued from the Chinese. The Kenpo that most are familiar with is, naturally, the "business" version from sheer numbers alone. I've always made the distinction between the two, and have often been basted for it. The newbies like to feel what they learned is THE Kenpo instead of A Kenpo. "There's room for everyone to study at the level of their choosing." - Ed Parker Sr.


Hi Doc.

I liked the original response also, I like your's even better. You have been saying that all along and only a few are really aware of your message.

Have a good one Doc.

Regards, Gary


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## GAB (Dec 7, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Ed Parker was a unique student, and took his art beyond anything his teachers had done previously. Personally, I'd be hard pressed to obtain his knowledge of the system enough to create another by the time I die.
> 
> Yep, I'm on the floor with students, having my own blood spilled and a very bruised body in the quest for excellence in the people I train, it's the only way I can perceive it. If they step up with me they deserve to have my knowledge, all that I can give them, to make them a better Kenpoist in years to come. Sadly, there are only a few that take me up on the offer. Kenpophobics, scared to become better at what they do and the fear of invalidation that what they do won't work. If it does, I congratulate them, if it doesn't, then the work begins.
> 
> DarK LorD


Yep, I just wish I was closer, I am going to try to get you up in my neck of the woods but there might not be a place you are willing to come to.
Is there any schools that are affiliated with your group, up in the Sacramento area or within a hundred mile radius??? 

I will be down over the Holiday's. Maybe I can come in incognito and peek???

How much, or many shots do I have to take or give for watching my back, wait if you were teaching you would be able to watch out for me...LOL...

I am late and I got to go train, Bye..

Regards, Gary


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## BallistikMike (Dec 8, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> *Ed Parker was a unique student, and took his art beyond anything his teachers had done previously. Personally, I'd be hard pressed to obtain his knowledge of the system enough to create another by the time I die.*
> 
> Yep, I'm on the floor with students, having my own blood spilled and a very bruised body in the quest for excellence in the people I train, it's the only way I can perceive it. If they step up with me they deserve to have my knowledge, all that I can give them, to make them a better Kenpoist in years to come. Sadly, there are only a few that take me up on the offer. Kenpophobics, scared to become better at what they do and the fear of invalidation that what they do won't work. If it does, I congratulate them, if it doesn't, then the work begins.
> 
> DarK LorD


I would say that the five men that developed Kajukenbo did the same thing in a more efficient manner under real conditions.

I would say that Helio Gracie did the same thing.

I would say that Remy Presas did the same thing.

I could go on with various different systems. What I see is that the world as a whole got a lot smaller and information was easily passed, yet also easily kept in the dark. Currently with the web, better aircraft, more money as  a whole we are seeing it again.

Ed Parker was THE MOST eclectic MA's at the time, in the spot light, yet his students to date do not want to experiment like him, they want to stay loyal and traditional. JKD crowd also.

With the mentality of saying you will be hard pressed to achieve his level ... well you will be.

Be safe


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## Doc (Dec 9, 2004)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> I would say that the five men that developed Kajukenbo did the same thing in a more efficient manner under real conditions.
> 
> I would say that Helio Gracie did the same thing.
> 
> ...



ED PARKER SR. - YES
KAJUKENBO FOUNDERS - YES
REMY PRESAS - YES
GRACIE (ANY OF THEM) - NO! What he (they) do they do very well, however it is not innovative, just good in THEIR venue which is sport competition. They don't do anything new, they just do it well. Apples and hand grenades to the other gentlemen.



> Ed Parker was THE MOST eclectic MA's at the time, in the spot light, yet his students to date do not want to experiment like him, they want to stay loyal and traditional.



That is an awfully definitive statement that obviously encompasses (I'm guessing) a lot of people you have never met nor have knowledge of what they teach. I suggest you confine your expertise to those you have personal knowledge of. I can state, fairly confidently, that I teach Ed Parker's Kenpo and that it's a good bet you would have a problem understanding or performing the basic functions of the teaching curriculum we utilize.

Further I would like a description of your understanding of Ed Parker's "traditional" version of Kenpo that "everyone" is adhering to, because I'm not quite sure what that is in your mind.


> JKD crowd also.


Here you would be wrong. There are many different "versions" of JKD that have been taught since the passing of Bruce Lee, and ALL of them are the result of innovations by those that promote them. The reason for this is that JKD is not nor has it ever been a definitive "style" or "art." JKD was what Bruce considered a "training concept." A philosophical approach that encompasses a personal journey and exploration of various arts in an effort to determine what is worthy of inclusion into the individuals personal expression of the concept. Wow! Does that sound familiar.  If he had only stayed with Parker just a tad longer. 


> With the mentality of saying you will be hard pressed to achieve his level ... well you will be.



Clearly Mr. O'Briant does not need me to defend him. That being said, acknowledging the vast amount of knowledge inherent in the concept of that which he studies is NOT a hinderance to excelled excellence. His statement is about the amount of information that he feels he may never be capable of absorbing ALL of. Ed Parker felt the same way and he was right and so is Mr. O'Briant. However surpassing your teacher is still a possiblity without "knowing it all" considering his teacher and his teachers teacher "didn't/don't know it all."


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## BallistikMike (Dec 9, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> ED PARKER SR. - YES
> KAJUKENBO FOUNDERS - YES
> REMY PRESAS - YES
> GRACIE (ANY OF THEM) - NO! What he (they) do they do very well, however it is not innovative, just good in THEIR venue which is sport competition. They don't do anything new, they just do it well. Apples and hand grenades to the other gentlemen.
> ...


Ok Doc

1. Addressing the Gracies. I am no fan and I know you are not, they did bring to the MA's public an effective ground system for the arena. I say they made enough changes to Judo to call it there own just like any of the founding fathers of Kenpo. Sorry if you are so anti-grappling that you get blinded to the fact that Ed Parker did the exact same thing the Gracies did only 30 years early and with "American Kenpo"

2. A description of the "traditional" EPAK. You take the word "traditional" out of context. Many and yes Many do strictly adhere to the Vol. 5 outline of what should be taught in order for it to be EPAK as it should. Then people such as yourself who are off the radar and teach a different version of American Kenpo. My mistake was not using the word "Many" or "Some" or "Others".  I will now make sure I am politicaly correct in what I type and make sure I have my lawyer check for my mistakes or words that will protect everyone. Yes Doc I am sure I would have a hard time underdstanding how you teach Kenpo with the curriculum you teach. I am sure the theories and concepts you teach are way over my head as well as the lingo.

3. You proved my point about the JKD crowd. It is a training concept, yet nearly everyone I see in the Mags, in the phone book, on video, at the seminars says "Bruce Lee taught it like this." Well thats wrong, 90% of the people teaching JKD never met Bruce LEE they learned it from others, who learned it from others, who trained with Bruce Lee. 

4. My last statment was not a dig, but something even a child knows. If you believe you can and/or cant do something well you wll believe that.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 9, 2004)

> GRACIE (ANY OF THEM) - NO! What he (they) do they do very well, however it is not innovative, just good in THEIR venue which is sport competition. They don't do anything new, they just do it well. Apples and hand grenades to the other gentlemen.



Yes and no.  The Gracie's invented no new techniques.  They did change the rules and training methods they took from Judo, and they did allow for the incorporation of striking and no-gi grappling into their system.


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## Doc (Dec 10, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Yes and no.  The Gracie's invented no new techniques.  They did change the rules and training methods they took from Judo, and they did allow for the incorporation of striking and no-gi grappling into their system.


Yeah and a couple of years ago they changed the helmets in the NFL, and now they re-emphasize the 5 yard "chuck" rule. Neither has anything to do with a fight on the street.


----------



## Doc (Dec 10, 2004)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> Ok Doc
> 
> 1. Addressing the Gracies. I am no fan and I know you are not, they did bring to the MA's public an effective ground system for the arena. I say they made enough changes to Judo to call it there own just like any of the founding fathers of Kenpo.



Well sir here I disagree, unless you're willing to give credit to the people who invented the compact laser disc or the vinyl record as well. A system of fighting and a new wrinkle in a sport are not the same thing. One is infinitely more complex and demanding where your life may be on the line, and they other is a controlled environment with severely limited techniques allowed, and an on board monitor to enforce the restrictions under specified time limitations. Frankly to compare What Ed Parker did to what the Gracies did is rather insulting art wise at the least.


> Sorry if you are so anti-grappling that you get blinded to the fact that Ed Parker did the exact same thing the Gracies did only 30 years early and with "American Kenpo"



Sir, I am not anti-grappling. In fact one of my good friends is Gene LaBell, and we did a DVD together. It just so happens I don't equate a sporting contest in a controlled environment to the complexity of a street fight. Nor am I "blinded" to any facet of Ed Parker's work. There simply is no comparison unless you wish to do so only as an analogy


> 2. A description of the "traditional" EPAK. You take the word "traditional" out of context.


No sir, you used the word out of context and applied it liberally to a large segment of people of which many you are not familiar with.


> Many and yes Many do strictly adhere to the Vol. 5 outline of what should be taught in order for it to be EPAK as it should. Then people such as yourself who are off the radar and teach a different version of American Kenpo.


Well sir this may come as a surprise to you, but the infinite Insight series volume one was published in 1981, and has my name in it so I am quite familiar with the material. the information in those series of books by Mr. Parker's own description, was an accumulation of material he compiled over a ten year period. 

This sir does not come even close to the bulk of the Kenpo knowledge Ed Parker Sr. Possessed, and is only a fraction of the Kenpo that Ed Parker himself utilized. There was Kenpo before that diversion into commercialism existed, and there are significant numbers of individuals who continue along the lines of what they were taught before that material came into being.

To suggest that I am "off the radar" because my personal knowledge and experience apparently pre-dates yours and the Infinite Insight Books, is a rather myopic perspective of the art in general, and speaks significantly of your lack of knowledge. In the circle of martial artists I associate, you would be considered a'off the radar" for such an elementary and limited view of a rich history of development.


> My mistake was not using the word "Many" or "Some" or "Others".


No sir, your mistake was simply not being specific and paintng a group of which you do not have full knowledge with a broad brush.


> I will now make sure I am politicaly correct in what I type and make sure I have my lawyer check for my mistakes or words that will protect everyone.


Sir, it has nothing to do with political correctness, and your sarcasm is duly noted. This is a medium that requires specificity if we are to communicate effectively. There are no vocal inflections or intonations, in conjunction with eye contact and body language available for interpretation. All there is to go on is what you type, period. if you don't want to be misunderstood, type what you mean and be specific.


> Yes Doc I am sure I would have a hard time underdstanding how you teach Kenpo with the curriculum you teach. I am sure the theories and concepts you teach are way over my head as well as the lingo.


Although I don't know you sir, I must disagree again. Clearly there may be things you have not been exposed to that I teach, however I would not characterize them as "over your head." We are all ignorant in some areas simply because none of us are all knowing. Given the opportunity, I'm sure you wouild have no problem understanding the "concepts" or the "lingo" terminology.


> 3. You proved my point about the JKD crowd. It is a training concept, yet nearly everyone I see in the Mags, in the phone book, on video, at the seminars says "Bruce Lee taught it like this." Well thats wrong, 90% of the people teaching JKD never met Bruce LEE they learned it from others, who learned it from others, who trained with Bruce Lee.


On this we do not disagree. Commercial JKD is a cousin to commercial kenpo.


> 4. My last statment was not a dig, but something even a child knows. If you believe you can and/or cant do something well you wll believe that.


Accepting the fact that you cannot learn everything there is to learn about a particular subject does not keep you from moving beyond your teacher. It is simply an acknowledgement of the vastness of the information. Doing so is not "giving up" nor limiting yourself. Perhaps its only a matter of choosing what part of the information you wish to tackle. And I don't think any "child" knows that. That sounds like an overly simplistic inappropriate assertion of a complex concept best left to individual interpretation.

But Mr. OBriant can clarify what he means himself, if he desires.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Dec 10, 2004)

First off, it's inaccurate to say that Mr. Parker simply adapted, "Old Pine Tree," kenpo--a) it remains very unclear exactly what Mitose did or did not know, and even more unclear where he got whatever he knew from; b) if one looks at Mitose's book, the similarities are far outweighed by the differences and above all by the systematic nature of Parker's kenpo.

Second off, it looks precisely correct to say that what the Gracie family did (and let's not forget that they were shamelessly, openly being commercial about it, too, good for them) in no way represents some new system in judo/jiu-jitsu/wrestling; as mentioned, pick up any of Gene Le Bell's old books, and there the stuff is. 

Third off--as there's been occasion to say recently in other contexts, not every single person who branches off is a genius, or even a really good martial artist. Most off the people mentioned are wonderful martial artists--but (and Bruce Lee is the perfect example) they are NOT genuine innovators. It's precisely correct to say that what Mr. Lee offered was a training method, a theoretical approach that helped a lot, against a background of a stultified martial arts world. But if you go back in history--look for example at discussion of, say, fencing and sword from the 17th century both in Europe and in Asia--you will see PRECISELY the same argument between the development of organized system and, "the system of no system."

Fourth--while I suspect that Mr. Parker was a lot more cerebral and intellectual than he's generally given credit for, he wasn't a god. What he was was the equivalent of a real innovator in the arts....and to be that, you have to be in the right place at the right time, as well as somebody who's a wonderful martial artist. He was; we ain't.

What he left, what matters, is the teaching system. It's as beautiful and complex as any kata, and as rewarding to study. Our problem is that--like the kata themselves--we have lots of folks who cheerfully rip out this piece of wiring or that circuit board because they don't understand it, then get on Internet forums and kvetch that kenpo lacks this or that, then next year announce that they've founded their own system.

Can one learn without the systematic approach that kenpo offers? Sure. It's traditionally what people did, anyway...in fact, you often get the impression that the refusal to systematize was part of maintaining the mystique of the arts as much as anything else. Of course good/great teachers, and talented/motivated students, can find their own ways.

Our problem is that there are only so many of these folks. Our other problem--and what leads to the phoniness--is that an advanced, capitalist culture encourages people to do exactly what too many martial artists are doing now: dump the history and the long, slow hard work, strip the complex and subtle away, and sell sell sell what's left.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 10, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Second off, it looks precisely correct to say that what the Gracie family did (and let's not forget that they were shamelessly, openly being commercial about it, too, good for them) in no way represents some new system in judo/jiu-jitsu/wrestling; as mentioned, pick up any of Gene Le Bell's old books, and there the stuff is.





> Fourth--while I suspect that Mr. Parker was a lot more cerebral and intellectual than he's generally given credit for, he wasn't a god. What he was was the equivalent of a real innovator in the arts....and to be that, you have to be in the right place at the right time, as well as somebody who's a wonderful martial artist. He was; we ain't.
> 
> What he left, what matters, is the teaching system. It's as beautiful and complex as any kata, and as rewarding to study. Our problem is that--like the kata themselves--we have lots of folks who cheerfully rip out this piece of wiring or that circuit board because they don't understand it, then get on Internet forums and kvetch that kenpo lacks this or that, then next year announce that they've founded their own system.



So what your saying is that anyone who claims that Kenpo is "incomplete" or has missed an innovation does so from an incomplete understanding of Kenpo.  

And, since you would never personally make the same error as someone who criticizes Kenpo, you are also saying that you have a complete understanding of BJJ, it's methods and techniques.  Furthermore you have done a detailed comparison to traditional Jiu-Jitsu and Judo of which you also have a complete understanding and have concluded that there is nothing at all new in BJJ methodology.  Right?

By extrapolation, your analysis could also be applied to the art of Kajukenbo.  Since Kajukenbo takes techniques and methods from other pre-existing styles, there is nothing new there either.  Right?


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## James Kovacich (Dec 10, 2004)

RC, in general that was a decent post but I see where Old F is coming from too. He trains both and knows exactly what he's trying to say.

True theres no new techniques but there is no one system that has all of the techniques. So to say that Geen Labell does this and so and so does that does don't mean that the new system is not valid.

I clearly do not teach what my Sifu teaches. I start off which Sifu's material but I take in a totally differant direction. 

So if I'm not teaching a new system and I'm not teaching my Sifu's system then what am I doing?


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 10, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> Yeah and a couple of years ago they changed the helmets in the NFL, and now they re-emphasize the 5 yard "chuck" rule. Neither has anything to do with a fight on the street.




OK, Doc  I will defer to your wisdom and experience.  Grappling and striking have nothing to do with a fight on the street.  I stand corrected.   :asian:


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 10, 2004)

Not what one wrote and not what he wrote, not at all.

The question both of you guys should be asking yourself is exactly, "then what am I doing?" So should we (see, "WE," means you and me both) all.

Because nobody said nothin' about your doing something invalid. Nobody argued, or so much as hinted, that "grappling and striking," meant nothing, "in the street," that incredibly-overused and hackneyed coverup phrase for all our (listen up--wrote, "OUR") mistakes and blind spots. Nobody said nothing about kenpo's being perfect. Those are your fantasies, not what was written at all.

One wrote about a) the fallacy of believing Mitose to be the One True Founder of kenpo; b) the difference between, say, Bruce Lee and Ed Parker; c) the connection of some of these errors to fraud and to capitalism. 

And oh yes...one doesn't know enought about Gene Le Bell's brilliant judo to say something intelligent about his overall contributions. One suspects that they're extensive--just too much like real martial arts for folks to deal with.


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## James Kovacich (Dec 10, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> And oh yes...one doesn't know enought about Gene Le Bell's brilliant judo to say something intelligent about his overall contributions. One suspects that they're extensive--just too much like real martial arts for folks to deal with.


I quoted Gene becaue he is the man but although he possesses greatness his system is not the "end all" of all systems. No system can be. 

I honestly wanted some input on exactly what is that one is doing when they no longer teach what their instructor teaches?

I'll be the fiirst to say that a system to me has to be proven and that comes over time. But what is it now?


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 10, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> And oh yes...one doesn't know enought about Gene Le Bell's brilliant judo to say something intelligent about his overall contributions. One suspects that they're extensive--just too much like real martial arts for folks to deal with.



You at last agree that one doesn't have to know everything about an art to say something intelligent it's overall contributions!  Thank you Mr. McRobertson.   artyon:


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 10, 2004)

One realizes that there's no polite way to say this, but, as politely as possible--you guys have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?


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## Doc (Dec 10, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> OK, Doc  I will defer to your wisdom and experience.  Grappling and striking have nothing to do with a fight on the street.  I stand corrected.   :asian:


I'm sorry but I never said that in that context. Please don't put words in my mouth.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 10, 2004)

You know guys, I probably shouldn't be posting right now. Yes, I am human, had a night off, relaxed and had a few 'pops' at home while watching t.v. Will you please scrap all the fancy talk, the intellectual b.s. and all these techniques from 'whirling tornados' to 'snapping the carrot'. One can definitely get a handle for those who have rolled around on the sidewalk with someone and those whose only experience is pairing off in the dojo. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with those who have never experienced a real, all out fight with someone but please, if you haven't, stop preaching to those who have. It's like some West Point idiot who never left the states lecturing a combat veteran in Iraq or Afganastan. Before someone posts back and insults me, please think of what I'm saying. I'm sure there are many street-wise martial artists reading this right now and nodding their heads in agreement. Scrap the theories and deal with the realities. Too many martial artists get into their own little world in their dojos and make assumptions on what works on the street and what doesn't, who's a good martial artist and who isn't, there system is the best, yet, they have never, ever put it to the test. Have your opinions, I don't have a problem with that, but leave your assumptions, arrogance and know-it-all attitude at the doorstep. If you've been there and done that, great! tell us about it, we'll listen, otherwise, "Stifle yourself Edith!", lol, okay, I finally got that off my chest, yeah, I know, it took a few 'pops' but I did it, now crucify me for it!, lol.


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## TChase (Dec 10, 2004)

You da man Joe! :asian: 

-Tom


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## Karazenpo (Dec 10, 2004)

Thanks, Tom. Hey, you're only a stone's throw away from me, we ought to hook up sometime!


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## GAB (Dec 10, 2004)

Joe, Took a couple of cool ones to get you to the front line. (as in firing line, for you Kai).

Good one Joe.

Regards, Gary


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## Doc (Dec 11, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> You know guys, I probably shouldn't be posting right now. Yes, I am human, had a night off, relaxed and had a few 'pops' at home while watching t.v. Will you please scrap all the fancy talk, the intellectual b.s. and all these techniques from 'whirling tornados' to 'snapping the carrot'. One can definitely get a handle for those who have rolled around on the sidewalk with someone and those whose only experience is pairing off in the dojo. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with those who have never experienced a real, all out fight with someone but please, if you haven't, stop preaching to those who have. It's like some West Point idiot who never left the states lecturing a combat veteran in Iraq or Afganastan. Before someone posts back and insults me, please think of what I'm saying. I'm sure there are many street-wise martial artists reading this right now and nodding their heads in agreement. Scrap the theories and deal with the realities. Too many martial artists get into their own little world in their dojos and make assumptions on what works on the street and what doesn't, who's a good martial artist and who isn't, there system is the best, yet, they have never, ever put it to the test. Have your opinions, I don't have a problem with that, but leave your assumptions, arrogance and know-it-all attitude at the doorstep. If you've been there and done that, great! tell us about it, we'll listen, otherwise, "Stifle yourself Edith!", lol, okay, I finally got that off my chest, yeah, I know, it took a few 'pops' but I did it, now crucify me for it!, lol.


Like we always say Joe - "Just because you been to the rifle range, that don't make you a veteran."

Bravo Joe. Now go ta bed.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 11, 2004)

Thanks, guys, I thought you'd appreciate that post and I took Doc's advice.....I went to bed and I even made it into work today, thanks, Doc!, lol.


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## TChase (Dec 11, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Thanks, Tom. Hey, you're only a stone's throw away from me, we ought to hook up sometime!


Absolutely!  I plan on visiting you in the near future.


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 12, 2004)

Can we lose all the titles when we dump the theories and deal with the realities?


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## Thunderbolt (Dec 12, 2004)

Doc,

after reading everybody's posts including yours, I have to ask you 1 question

1-Ed. Parker Sr created 2 versions of kenpo: *commercial* and *none-commercial* art.?

OR

2- He created 1 version of AK but his students decided to make it *commercial* one.???

thanks.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 12, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Can we lose all the titles when we dump the theories and deal with the realities?



Personally, we should lose more than that. Dan ranking is completely off the wall and think how ridiculous it is training in pajamas decorated with a bunch of patches but then again the military has uniforms with patches and they go by titles and are undisputedly 'reality' figthers and this would include our law enforcement personnel also. I would have to say this protocol maintains discipline, respect and order. Imagine going into boot camp and calling the drill instructor who's a Sgt. by, let's say, 'Mike', lol, boy, that'll get you far or the next time you get stopped by a state trooper and his name tag says Trooper Robert Johnson and you ask: "Bobby, what did I do wrong?', that will get you far too, lol. Nothing wrong with theory either, but you can't base everything on just theory, the theory has to be proven at some time in reality and then and only then will it become a true fighting principle for you that you can bank on. The late Bruce Lee made a good point, only he said it about forms, I'll say it this way, if I may: "Promoting yourself as a self defense 'expert' in the martial arts but never, ever proving yourself in true combat would be the equivalent of claimimg to be another Mark Spitz while learning to swim on dry land." There is nothing wrong if you never had the opportunity to use your skills, it's just important that you do not convey to others an impression that you have.  Finally, never have a condescending attitude toward someone who has because eventually it will come back and bite you in the as_, lol.


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 13, 2004)

One suspects that that last post spoke for itself.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 13, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> One suspects that that last post spoke for itself.



I should hope so, it was intended to, lol.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 13, 2004)

Robert, let me take this a step further. Why does it bother you that I, or anyone else on this forum was awarded a title with their rank? and why did you feel it appropiate to deflect, you know, dance around, evade, whatever, my original post? You act like a senator from my own home state in Massachusetts who just got buried in a recent election for doing the same thing, lol. I follow and respect the protocol of my instructors, that's all, and  if it makes you feel better, I don't even use my title when I teach at my school. I believe that you are a teacher? college, is it? I could be wrong and please correct me if I am (like I know you won't, lol). Well, if this is so, what do your students address you in class as, 'Bobby', 'Rob', 'Dude', Robbie, worse? What is the protocol that you follow in your professionalism? Please, give me a little more than that, just because I'm from the same state as Johnny K. doesn't mean I don't have enough smarts to pick up on the little dig you threw me WHILE of course evading the whole point of my post. Please, no more rhetoric, literary mumbo jumbo or beating around the proverbial bush. If I may use your own quote and apply it to you: "One suspects that your last post spoke for itself", well then, Rob, you never have applied your theories in the real world, have you?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Dec 13, 2004)

I'm inspired. From here on out, I will train naked, and have everybody refer to me simply as "Dude". It will make training in public and visiting other schools a little awkward, but what-da-hey...life needs a little spice. No?

Dave

PS -- twenty bucks says, if I happenstance my way into success, 40 years in the future will find "dude" an official title/rank in some art, somewhere.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 13, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I'm inspired. From here on out, I will train naked, and have everybody refer to me simply as "Dude". It will make training in public and visiting other schools a little awkward, but what-da-hey...life needs a little spice. No?
> 
> Dave
> 
> PS -- twenty bucks says, if I happenstance my way into success, 40 years in the future will find "dude" an official title/rank in some art, somewhere.



Hey "Dude", lol. Good one! I hear ya, Dave, you gotta have a sense of humor in the martial arts or actually in life for that matter!


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 13, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Robert, let me take this a step further. Why does it bother you that I, or anyone else on this forum was awarded a title with their rank? and why did you feel it appropiate to deflect, you know, dance around, evade, whatever, my original post? You act like a senator from my own home state in Massachusetts who just got buried in a recent election for doing the same thing, lol. I follow and respect the protocol of my instructors, that's all, and  if it makes you feel better, I don't even use my title when I teach at my school. I believe that you are a teacher? college, is it? I could be wrong and please correct me if I am (like I know you won't, lol). Well, if this is so, what do your students address you in class as, 'Bobby', 'Rob', 'Dude', Robbie, worse? What is the protocol that you follow in your professionalism? Please, give me a little more than that, just because I'm from the same state as Johnny K. doesn't mean I don't have enough smarts to pick up on the little dig you threw me WHILE of course evading the whole point of my post. Please, no more rhetoric, literary mumbo jumbo or beating around the proverbial bush. If I may use your own quote and apply it to you: "One suspects that your last post spoke for itself", well then, Rob, you never have applied your theories in the real world, have you?



Ding!  Advantage goes to Joe!


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 13, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> One realizes that there's no polite way to say this, but, as politely as possible--you guys have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?



Well, at least you are no longer alone.  Think about it. :2xBird2:


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## BlackCatBonz (Dec 14, 2004)

way to go, dude!!


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## BlackCatBonz (Dec 14, 2004)

hey prof joe!

i dont want to toe the line of disrespect to anyone that practices or teaches....but a lot of people i have met that teach have never seen any action outside of their dojo(and i am not implying that people should be spoiling for a fight every 10 minutes like a drunken sailor.......some people are just not in the position to use or test their skills in that manner). i dont think that that is a bad thing, simply because a lot of "stuff" is taught through theory by a teacher, even though that teacher may not practice said theory in everyday life. having said that.....as far a MA go, having theoretical knowledge and practical (practical meaning something outside of your normal tippy tap sparring, or grappling in a scientific way) knowledge is an important combination to have in a teacher (IMHO).
on my next train of thought.......i think that some people that have never been in a fight (but practice thoroughly) are also practising good martial skills.
but that doesnt mean i dont think that a good slap in the face is out of the question, every once in a while.

shawn


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## Doc (Dec 14, 2004)

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> Doc,
> 
> after reading everybody's posts including yours, I have to ask you 1 question
> 
> ...



Actually, although there were varying degrees of crossover from one evolving method to another, there were at least 5 clear and distinct philosophies and/or styles.

1. *"Kenpo Karate"*

What Ed Parker was doing when he arrived on the mainland, first as a brown and later as a black belt opening shop in Pasadena around 54. Wrote the book of the same name and published it in 1961. Bought thousands of patches and got "stuck" with them. Teachers like Chuck Sullivan draw from this era.

2. *"Chinese Kenpo"*

When Ed Parker discovered the vast knowledge available and embraced the Chinese Arts while studying with and under Ark Wong and Huemea Lefiti. Also where he met Jimmy (James Wing) Woo, and Danny Inosanto. Broke with the established "yudansakai." During this period he wrote "Secrets Of Chinese Karate" and published it in 1963. Notice the compressed time frame. People like Frank Trejo's instructor, Steve Hearring still teach this perspective in Pasadena.

3.  *"American Kenpo"*

Began the codification process of his early understandings of Chinese Kenpo into a distinct evolving American interpretation. Dropped all Japanese - Chinese language and non-essential non-American cultural accoutrements. Notice the lack of the word "karate," considered an insult to the Chinese. Some like Dave Hebler draw from the beginnings of this version.

4.  *"Ed Parkers American Kenpo Karate"*

A series of personal issues causes Ed Parker to decide to enter the commercial marketplace and expand in the second half of the sixties. Looking for a method that differed from the kenpo franchises that preceded him that he felt were flawed, he drew upon his many "transfer" black belts from other styles. Stumbling upon "motion" as a base concept, it allowed him to create loose conceptual guidelines for already competent black belts. This further gave him the freedom to travel conducting seminars, belt tests, and selling, while seeing the majority of his "students" two or three times a year and usually once at the IKC. Most of the well known black belts came up under this system. Some better than others. Some spent their own dime and came to see Parker often when he was in town like Dennis Conatser. Some came very late in the eighties and is the reason they are not on the family tree. The rest came after Parker's death. Most of the older seniors rejected it and/or left, and at least one Kenpo master from another style said, "Parker has gone Hollywood." In truth he had. Movies, TV, celeb students, etc. It worked. This was what he was sharing with a few private students in an effort to cash in on the publicity of Larry Tatum's student Jeff Speakman's movie, "Perfect Weapon." He hoped to rekindle a chain of schools that he directly financially controlled. All of his schools and his black belt students had defected years ago. He maintained only one profitable school run by Larry Tatum in the eighties.

5.  *"Ed Parker's Personal Kenpo"*

The ever evolving personal art of Ed Parker that included elements left out of his commercial diversion or off shoot. (nerve meridians, mat work, manipulations, structural integrity, etc) This included all the things that students couldn't duplicate because Parker didn't generally teach it. Here lies all the things that some have discovered is missing from his diversion art that he never wrote about anywhere. "Slap-Check" comes to mind. I gave what he shared with me my own name after he passed based on phrases Parker used to describe it to differeniate between it and other versions of what he taught. However in reality it is the "American Kenpo" Parker was utilizing before he passed away that was still evolving. Others that he may have taught may have other names for it, but to understand it, a person would have had to evolve with Parker into it becuase of a lack of its hard codification.


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## Doc (Dec 14, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I'm inspired. From here on out, I will train naked, and have everybody refer to me simply as "Dude". It will make training in public and visiting other schools a little awkward, but what-da-hey...life needs a little spice. No?
> 
> Dave
> 
> PS -- twenty bucks says, if I happenstance my way into success, 40 years in the future will find "dude" an official title/rank in some art, somewhere.


Uh Dude, "No SubLevel Four for you!"


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## GAB (Dec 14, 2004)

Has turned into a very good thread, Thanks for the information "Dudes".


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## Karazenpo (Dec 14, 2004)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> hey prof joe!
> 
> i dont want to toe the line of disrespect to anyone that practices or teaches....but a lot of people i have met that teach have never seen any action outside of their dojo(and i am not implying that people should be spoiling for a fight every 10 minutes like a drunken sailor.......some people are just not in the position to use or test their skills in that manner). i dont think that that is a bad thing, simply because a lot of "stuff" is taught through theory by a teacher, even though that teacher may not practice said theory in everyday life. having said that.....as far a MA go, having theoretical knowledge and practical (practical meaning something outside of your normal tippy tap sparring, or grappling in a scientific way) knowledge is an important combination to have in a teacher (IMHO).
> on my next train of thought.......i think that some people that have never been in a fight (but practice thoroughly) are also practising good martial skills.
> ...



Hey Shawn, I totally agree with you. We are most definitely on the same page!


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## Karazenpo (Dec 14, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Ding!  Advantage goes to Joe!



Alright, Alan!!!....lol.


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## The Kai (Dec 14, 2004)

What type of sparring do you do??


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 14, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> Actually, although there were varying degrees of crossover from one evolving method to another, there were at least 5 clear and distinct philosophies and/or styles....



Wow.  Great perspective.  Thanks Doc.


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## pete (Dec 14, 2004)

in'eresting, 'specially when i compare doc's descriptions vs. what's on my cert... pete.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 14, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> What type of sparring do you do??



I think this question was addressing Shawn's post but here goes anyway. Over the years we have taught and trained in both, point sparring for tournament competition (for those who enjoy tournys) and kickboxing for those who enjoy that aspect of the game. However, it is mandatory at my school that before you go up for black belt, (so it starts around brown but sometimes at green and even earlier), you must don the pads and headgear and go at it. A white belt can go if they wish but it's mandatory for the brown and black levels. I have to be sure that my students have the experience of taking a blow as well as delivering one ( in the old days, you went without the headgear, now obviously, liability reasons, you can't). I always believed that the measure of a person's toughness is not how much they can dish out but how much they can take. Anyone can dish out a beating but not everyone can take one. Grappling (mat work) is also stressed. As a matter of fact, my students participate in a yearly tournament at Gm. S. George Pesare's Kaito Gakko called the 'Best of the Best'. You have to place in all divisions to win or else you get nothing. They are: 1) Boxing (body only) 2) High kicking (head only) 3) Submission grappling (Chokes are allowed) 4) Long stick 5) short stick 6) archery 7) Power knife throwing 8) blade fighting 9) pistol. They really look forward to it every year and do quite well. I think it's really good for them. In my opinion, it symbolizes the 21st century warrior. I've never heard of anyone else having tournaments like that.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 14, 2004)

Great post Doc! That's why "you da man"!!!


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## The Kai (Dec 14, 2004)

Agreed sparring builds the ability to get hit and keep going, there is always time later to check or think about the pain.  Been a while since putting on the boxing gloves and going at it!
Todd


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 14, 2004)

First off, Joe, since you ask, I tell my students that they have a choice of informal and formal address. I tell them--in English classes, that is--that I prefer "Robert," but if they're uncomfortable with that, the correct form of address is the formal one, "Dr. Robertson." Not, "Mr., " and not, "Professor," since we don't have that academic rank where I teach, and learning English is in part a matter of learning correct forms of address for the audience you're addressing. 

Of course, as an instructor, there's a cloud of pomposity around what one does in the classroom no matter what.

On the mat, my name's "Robert." I don't come from a strictly traditional tradition, that's not the way I was taught, and I guess I feel that if, "Robert," is worthy of respect, titles ain't gonna git it. I can certainly tell you that my own first instructor called Mr. Parker "Ed," because that's how he introduced himself. That was before my time, but I also happen to have had a pretty well known professor--Ed Thompson, author of, "Making of the English Working Class," and about 93 others, Cambridge don, tank crewman in WWII and head of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, the whole nine yards, who also intro'd himself as, "Ed." We didn't even know he was a big deal until we saw him on "60 Minutes," telling Kissinger to get stuffed. But he also made it a point to take all his students out for burgers, individually, and talk to them. 

We'd be happier, in the martial arts in America, if we followed such an example. (For that matter, there're long traditions in Japan and China of the Shabby Master.) And there'd be less fraud, too.

Then, there's my experience--it's the guys who insist on titles that one has to watch out for. Certainly, in ordinary conversation they have no place. I use mine when I book plane tickets (though worrying about the guy in Row 17, Seat A, who keels over and they come get me..."Uh...anything that would be helpful in Cleanth Brooks?"), on formal occasions, and when I wish to squish the pompous.

One has no trouble with those who have earned, and who on formal occasions display, ranks of various sorts, whether in academia or in martial arts. One simply wonders about the need to display them all the time--and one's experience has been that the truly skilled and credentialled, as mentioned, pretty much skip the rank stuff.

Apologies for the offense, if any; perhaps there's a bit of a bee in the bonnet for some of us, but one suspects that the topic of this thread and the excessive display of titles are linked in the martial arts world, though not in this particular case.

Let me also note that "High Kicking (Head Only)," strikes one as unwise. Such kicks, if one has one's info straight, are associated with most of the deaths in martial arts tournaments overthe last few years--and one would refer you to a good article in "Journal of Asian Martial Arts," a year or so back, which documented a higher concussion rate for teenage girls in sport tae kwon do than for high school footballers.

The latest evidence is that repetitive blows to the head--even those which in the past have seemed innocuous, as in soccer, "heading," are not good.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 14, 2004)

Ding!  Advantage goes to Robert.


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## Doc (Dec 14, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> Actually, although there were varying degrees of crossover from one evolving method to another, there were at least 5 clear and distinct philosophies and/or styles.
> 
> 1. *"Kenpo Karate"*
> 
> ...



I had several questions come to me via email from a reader. One of them he/she asks, "Didn't Parker's commercial Kenpo evolve as well?"

The material I call "commercial kenpo" and represented in the Infinite Insight Volumes, was amassed over a 10 year period beginning "around" 1969, and Parker stated so in volume 1. It's only significant evolution was an introduction of weapons forms by Mr. Parker prompted by many students requests, (an actually not what Parker wanted). 

The bulk of it was a designed conceptual vehicle based on "motion" that, in reality, could apply to any art. In fact the Infinite Volumes were written as a conceptual guide for all martial artists in general, and commercial kenpo in particular only because the concepts were not new to kenpo. When you consider that Parker created a successful and effective vehicle that proliferated in such a short period of time, it is quite remarkable. 

It however contained very little of the aspects of Parker's (or even Chow's) previous work, nor any of his personal applications beyond "motion" theory. And to answer the question, "No, it does not evolve."

The genius of Ed Parker was that unlike other styles, it ALLOWED and ENCOURAGED (by his design) teachers as well as students, collectively and independently, to evolve on a personal level through exploration and tailoring of the base concepts. This the reason some of the concepts contridict each other. Some might embrace certain concepts while others might gravitate to its contridictions. Personal preference dominates.

This created an environment that permitted all teachers and students alike to study at their own personal level of excellence. Some pushed/push the envelope, some just do generally what's in the "manuals," for better or worse, but all are essentially "happy" where they are. That's pure genius in the martial arts world.

But its weakness is it has a built in ceiling of knowledge unless you venture outside of its contraints. It in many ways is what Parker told Bruce to do, except it actually has structure inherently missing from Bruce Lee's truly eclectic personal work. That is why I have often said that commercial kenpo is JKD's bigger, smarter, and better "cousin." JKD is more philosophical, commercial kenpo conceptual, true disciplines are physically principled.

Further, and according to Parker, "It is an entity feeding upon itself." And without "fresh meat" it will degenerate to nothing. In response to several statements on this thread about "street applications and tested experience." Consider that most came into the commercial school because they had a desire to learn to defend themselves on the street because they had no "street experience." Street thugs rarely study any art in depth because of a lack of discipline. It is much easier to acquire a club, knife, firearm, or amass in a group to accomplish their short term goals of immediate domination of a victim.

Ultimately after going from white to black, the "inexperienced student" suddenly becomes the "inexperienced teacher" of others seeking street experience. The blind leading the more blind, or the perverbial "one eyed man in the land of the blind" teacher.

The "fresh meat" Parker spoke of was experienced fighters from other styles and disciplines to teach the concepts, much like what he himself did when he started the motion revolution. But Parker had an edge. He started with guys that could already fight and had real world experience. 

How could you lose with a Steve LaBounty, or his student Tom Kelly interpreting his concepts? Scott Loring, Fred Brewster, Tony Sator, Chuck Sullivan, John Henderson, Steve Sanders, Paul Dalton, Dave Hebler, Ralph Castellanos, Danny Inosanto, Tino Tuiolosega, and the list goes on. All of them coming to Parker with a combination of street, and other discipline experiences. If these guys never learned a technique from anybody's manual they could still knock you on your a$$. 

Commercial kenpo has been enundated by children at its financial base, supplemented by the non streetwise looking for validation through colored belts bought and sold in the marketplace. And these are the bulk of your "teachers." Never been in the military, or punched in earnest, or been in a life or death struggle for survival. I was "lucky." I grew up "in the hood" and I was a cop. The possibility of life or death struggles are a daily occurrance for many.

But still, "dojo experience" is better than none, and to some, the one eyed man looks pretty "regal."

more


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## Karazenpo (Dec 14, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> First off, Joe, since you ask, I tell my students that they have a choice of informal and formal address. I tell them--in English classes, that is--that I prefer "Robert," but if they're uncomfortable with that, the correct form of address is the formal one, "Dr. Robertson." Not, "Mr., " and not, "Professor," since we don't have that academic rank where I teach, and learning English is in part a matter of learning correct forms of address for the audience you're addressing.
> 
> Of course, as an instructor, there's a cloud of pomposity around what one does in the classroom no matter what.
> 
> ...



Hi Robert, Hey, I call it like it is and that was a good response! Alan gives you this round so we'll call it a draw, lol. I actually agree with it, I guess we just had a misunderstanding because I'm on the same page as far as titles go and don't mind my former post, I was just trying to use a little humor to get everyone to lighten up a little and have some fun, no offense intended either.
As far as the kicks to the head go, I know what you mean but those are the rules of game at that tournament but in all fairness they do use really good protective headgear and there's never been a problem yet...knock on wood. Take care, "Dude" Joe, lol.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 14, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> I had several questions come to me via email from a reader. One of them he/she asks, "Didn't Parker's commercial Kenpo evolve as well?"
> 
> The material I call "commercial kenpo" and represented in the Infinite Insight Volumes, was amassed over a 10 year period beginning "around" 1969, and Parker stated so in volume 1. It's only significant evolution was an introduction of weapons forms by Mr. Parker prompted by many students requests, (an actually not what Parker wanted).
> 
> ...



 Wow Doc, you are most definitely 'da man'! Imho, your last post puts everything in perspective and essentially says it all. I know there's nothing else I can add to it....................Take care my friend & be safe, "Joe"


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## Doc (Dec 14, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Wow Doc, you are most definitely 'da man'! Imho, your last post puts everything in perspective and essentially says it all. I know there's nothing else I can add to it....................Take care my friend & be safe, "Joe"



I got ya six Joe.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Dec 14, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> Uh Dude, "No SubLevel Four for you!"


Fine. For at least a couple nights a week, I'll put on the puhjammers. Fixin' to show soon, if you're still up for witnessing the clumsiness of the near-dead.

D.

But I'm keeping "Dude" as my honorrific.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Dec 14, 2004)

Dude Shuras:

Rock on.

Dave.


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## BlackCatBonz (Dec 15, 2004)

i guess i will reply to the type of sparring question as well......in case it was directed at me.
yes i have done sparring with head gear and pads......but that was never done in the interest of learning self defense nor was it ever used as a training tool so to speak....more for the fun of contest.
the type of training that i was taught and continue to practice is one that tries to keep it as real as possible without someone getting killed or maimed.
that does not mean that i dont run through drills or kata, i believe those are an important part of study......i am talking from a strictly self defense standpoint.
in the past i have learned to protect myself by doing it this way and not through something that too contest like.
no pads....no gloves.....no cups.....no mouth guards.
i have been punched in the throat, in the neck, groin....you name it
kicked in the face, the knee, hit with bokkens, bats, sticks and other assorted hard things.
defended against blades both real and fake....along with practicing handgun disarms with a starter pistol (the object being to remove the pistol without it firing)
i worked in a night club for 5 years.....4 of those as head doorman.
i have had bottles thrown at me, broken and waved in my face, screwdrivers (not the drink) and pocketknives pulled on me, spit on, slapped by a girl (lol), and almost vomited on several times.
i honestly believe if it wasnt for my "realistic" training, i might not be sitting at my computer right now.
i am just a lowly nodan shodan, but i do believe that my experiences have helped me become a better martial artist and teacher.
i have no need to tell someone that i am something greater than i am.......what you see is what you get. i wear a plain old black belt....and i try to get out and train as often as i can with my friends.

shawn


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## The Kai (Dec 15, 2004)

So you spar full contact with out pads on and no target restrictions (like kyokushikai)?  Just trying to see how different styles spar.

Todd


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## GAB (Dec 15, 2004)

Hi All,

Regarding the type of contact Shawn is talking about is more like point contact.
IMO.
Not hitting full steam but making contact and getting the point.

It is the essence of contact but not as hard. Some times it gets out of hand and people get hurt. 
I guess you can say "only the strong survive" or in the words of Darwin.  
Paraphrased here..The replication process is with the stongest of the species to allow that particular species to survive....The mistake is not the best picture.... Extinct comes to mind. 
Or the other side of the coin is a mutation that occurs that assists the species.

Nice thread, I am only tossing in a few thoughts.

Regards, Gary


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## GAB (Dec 15, 2004)

Hi Shawn, I still have your number and when I get a chance I will pm you. We can establish a connection and continue later. 

Good post, the ice in those screwdrivers can hurt. LOL

Regards, Gary


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## The Kai (Dec 15, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi All,
> 
> Regarding the type of contact Shawn is talking about is more like point contact.
> IMO.
> ...


I'm confused I'm getting 2 disseperate mental pictures here.  Which is it Bare knuckle and padded, focused ot heavy contact??
Todd


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## Karazenpo (Dec 15, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Dude Shuras:
> 
> Rock on.
> 
> Dave.



LOL.......


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## Karazenpo (Dec 15, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Agreed sparring builds the ability to get hit and keep going, there is always time later to check or think about the pain.  Been a while since putting on the boxing gloves and going at it!
> Todd




Been a while since putting on the boxing gloves and going at it!
Todd[/QUOTE]

Believe me, Todd, I'm almost 53, work out very hard but very rarely put on the gloves anymore and go that hard, about a year ago was the last time. No one should if you've been training for a long time, I 've been in the arts for 32 years and your body along with your 'head' can only take so much of a pounding over time and then you're just asking for trouble. I feel some things now and should and probably will quit while I'm ahead, if you know what I mean. Let's face it, at this stage of the game I certainly don't have any aspirations to be a world kickboxing champ, lol. In all seriousness, I think the most important thing, from a self defense standpoint, is feeling confident about handling being hit in a real fight, if you've been there and done that, it's like riding a bike, you'll won't forget the feeling or how to react, providing you're not K.O'd of course!, lol.


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## The Kai (Dec 15, 2004)

Oddly when i worked with the Muay Thai Guys, almost never did they spar hard.  insted of winning a ego match in the gym-they waited for a money match before risking themselves

I hear ya about getting older.  However I gots a new shodan that needs a little seasoning, so till I get him over, well, himself...
Todd


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## Karazenpo (Dec 15, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Oddly when i worked with the Muay Thai Guys, almost never did they spar hard.  insted of winning a ego match in the gym-they waited for a money match before risking themselves
> 
> I hear ya about getting older.  However I gots a new shodan that needs a little seasoning, so till I get him over, well, himself...
> Todd



I know what you're saying Todd, but that's what you have your protege's for, lol, in other words, in police philosophy, we send the 'junior man in first', lol, not really, I'm only kidd'n but it sounds good, doesn't it?, lol.


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## The Kai (Dec 16, 2004)

When we test I send a couple of under belts in first (like a picolar'o).  Then I get to test thier endurance.  in this situation I want it to be clear that I start on a equal base, if that makes sense

Todd


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## KenpoTess (Dec 16, 2004)

*Mod. Note. 

Please, keep the conversation on topic..
If you like we can split the thread into two topics, one the original posting and another on the current Sparring topic.

Thanks,

~Tess
-MT  S.Moderator-
*


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## The Kai (Dec 16, 2004)

What was the original topic?:idunno: 

Todd


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## Karazenpo (Dec 16, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> What was the original topic?:idunno:
> 
> Todd



Todd, I don't think the original poster (Todd Monis) wants to even go there, LOL, I'm sure he's happy it's off topic after all the heat that came down on him!, lol.    Right, Todd (Monis)?


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## BlackCatBonz (Dec 16, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> So you spar full contact with out pads on and no target restrictions (like kyokushikai)? Just trying to see how different styles spar.
> 
> Todd


no...its not sparring like kumite.....i guess you could classify it as bogyo waza, defense tricks?
for example.....uke attacks and tori defends against the attack (most simple explanation), the difference being that, it's not a vehicle for practicing a technique....uke attacks with intent to do damage and maintains that attack until tori stops it. hence the injuries or shots that i mentioned. 
a lot of schools might do this type of self defense training but the difference being uke's intent, simply because its meant as a training drill.
uke attacks......tori ends it as soon as possible.....much like defending in a street situation. this also gives the pratitioner the experience of working from both an attack and defense position.....and defense doesnt always win.
i know a lot of systems say they do this.......but not that i have ever witnessed. its the way i was taught by my first kempo teacher......one of the similarities between my original training and what i did in kosho is that you always work from  a dynamic standpoint, meaning, uke doesnt throw one attack while tori does his thing....its continuous.
not too many students stuck around for this training simply because "it wasnt fun"......you're learning war, not ballet.

shawn


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## The Kai (Dec 17, 2004)

So basically it's full contact, everthing legat all targets open sparring?


Todd


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## BlackCatBonz (Dec 17, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> So basically it's full contact, everthing legat all targets open sparring?
> 
> 
> Todd


yes i guess you could say that......but i wouldnt use the word sparring....
when i hear that word, i think of a contest.....i know we can get into the semantics of the word contest, but lets say that contest is for sport. when i hear the word spar....i think of sport.
the type of training im talking about is purely for self defense. yes its full contact, yes all targets are open.
the mindset of tori has to be this though....as i was taught in kempo, the goal of tori is to end the confrontation with as little pain and suffering done to the uke as possible, so conscience has to be your guide. at the same time you're protecting yourself from harm. i hope this makes sense.

shawn


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## The Kai (Dec 17, 2004)

Actually a contest means a struggle for victory among rivals, could be a sport or could be anything that pits individual at odds.

I guess my fear would be if i let my senior ranks go "all out" with foll power leg kicks, full bore punch to face, Throws and elbows would be the high rate of injuries and disabling long term effects.  I emphasis a degree of control when working live.  To date I've sparredand trained for full contact kickboxing, bare knuckle (kyokushinkai) and semi contact.  Man, i gotta tell you to cripple someone on the mat going all out - no rules all targets  Wow the cure is worse than the cause.  keep me on the sidelines

todd


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## BlackCatBonz (Dec 17, 2004)

this is why i mentioned protecting uke and yourself from harm. i know that if i punch someone in the face it is going to do damage. i guess its too hard to describe....you seem to be getting a picture of 2 people going b**ls to the wall beating on each other....and that is not what it is about. can you get hit? yes. can you get hurt? yes.
should you be hitting to maim if you're tori? no. should you be hitting to hurt if you're uke? yes.....otherwise tori isnt learning anything except a false sense of his abilities when he gets tapped on the chin?
when learning self defense there has to be some sense of danger.....otherwise you're just kidding yourself and your students.
a cop can learn what is like to have a gun pulled on him......but when he is on the street and its done for real, the emotion of the situation makes a drastic change.
ive seen people do really careless things when training with a dummy blade.....you put a real blade in their hand and their whole devil may care attitude goes out the window.
i hope this further explains.

shawn


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## Karazenpo (Dec 18, 2004)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> this is why i mentioned protecting uke and yourself from harm. i know that if i punch someone in the face it is going to do damage. i guess its too hard to describe....you seem to be getting a picture of 2 people going b**ls to the wall beating on each other....and that is not what it is about. can you get hit? yes. can you get hurt? yes.
> should you be hitting to maim if you're tori? no. should you be hitting to hurt if you're uke? yes.....otherwise tori isnt learning anything except a false sense of his abilities when he gets tapped on the chin?
> when learning self defense there has to be some sense of danger.....otherwise you're just kidding yourself and your students.
> a cop can learn what is like to have a gun pulled on him......but when he is on the street and its done for real, the emotion of the situation makes a drastic change.
> ...



Shawn, I couldn't have said it better, my hat goes off to you and the 'cop' analogy is soooooo..... true!   Happy Holidays!, "Joe"


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## The Kai (Dec 18, 2004)

Balck Cat
So it's not treally sparring but a randori type of practice, correct?
Have you ever sparred or entered a tournament?
Todd


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## BlackCatBonz (Dec 19, 2004)

ive sparred plenty of times during class.......but i have asthma so it really limits me from doing really long sparring sessions. i like it.....but i must admit, its not my strongpoint at all. ive never entered a tournament simply because of my breathing factor.....id like to do kata's in a tournament setting....but again i only do traditional kata, most of the tournaments ive seen always have those really wacky acrobatic kata's. and while i am wacky, im certainly no acrobat.

shawn


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## The Kai (Dec 19, 2004)

Therw will always be a diffference btween sparring in class and competing,  The focus and intensity shift dramatically.
Randori is a neat way to practice as is sparring.


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