# A Tale of 2 Datus.



## Susumu Kodai (Apr 1, 2002)

Datu Kelly Worden and Datu Timothy Hartman. 
The story makes for interesting read. Kaith got between these two Titans and look what happened to him. Poor Kaith.

Datu Hartman has been surprisingly silent on these issues. Mr. Hartman has an interesting history online. First there was the question on his title of Punong-Guro. I believe he is unique in Modern Arnis history as being the only one to every hold it, and many question his usage of this title. Mr. Hartman is notorious on the internet for his war on Usenet over the usage of the Datu title. Other interesting claims made by Mr. Hartman include being the highest ranking practitioner in the United States, the Grandmasters highest tested Black belt, and being highest tested for in 17 years. These are all very interesting claims Mr. Hartman. Care to elaborate on these? Especially when the Presas Family is traveling with some 8th degree black belts, while you yourself are only a 6th? Mr. Hartman formed his organization against the wishes of the GrandMaster, who considered it a betrayal. Mr. Hartman was requested to not visit GrandMaster during his illness, as there was still bad blood between them. He disreguarded that request, and visited anyway. Mr. Hartmans selfishness in the arts is why he has few friends among us.

Datu Worden is just as interesting. A rumor exists that at one time he disassociated himself from GrandMaster. This we cannot verify, and would appreciate if anyone could. He went to one Kuntao-Silat de Thouars seminar, and then made a Kuntao-Silat video, listing Willem de Thouars as his teacher. His exaggeration was discovered and he was forced to remove the reference. There was a large discussion of this on Usenet several years ago. Now, he uses an audio recording of GrandMaster to further his own ambitions, and hides behind a martyr complex that fools only the gullible, brainwashed and misinformed. Kaith posted a question in response to Mr. McConnells heartfelt posting about Datu Wordens audio file. Kaith also included in there a few ill chosen words that he seems to have wanted to clarify. Surprisingly, even Mr. McConnell understood they were not directed at him, and even agreed. I will point out the issues with why some may have a problem with Datu Wordens gift. Datu Wordens words if you listen closely Professor only lists 4 people as Datu Ranked! and SOME WILL NOT LIKE WHAT PROFESSOR HAS TO SAY, HEARING THE TRUTH MAY HURT THEIR MISCONCEIVED STATUS" are leading statements, which some may consider political. Additional comments posted here by Datu Wordens enthusiastic followers also lend credence to this thought. It is interesting to note that Datu Worden removed the audio after repeated requests by Kaith for people to listen to it. What is he afraid of we wonder?

While we personally think Kaith is in over his head, and he should keep himself focused on running this forum or perhaps his training. He will obviously need it as it appears that where Datu Worden is concerned, Kaith hit a very sore area.

It is interesting to also note that none of the other 4 Datus have directly commented on this issue in either venue. 

It will be interesting to see how this resolves over the future. 

We remain, Kodai.


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## no fefe (Apr 1, 2002)

Interesting points "Susumo" you know what you read but that is all.  There are things that go on in real life that you are completely unaware of.  You just come in to stir things up even more, maybe to even cause more friction between Modern Arnis groups.

You should check out Datu Worden's web page again.


Robert Koenig


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## arnisador (Apr 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Susumu Kodai _
> 
> *Other interesting claims made by Mr. Hartman include being the ?highest ranking practitioner in the United States?, ?the Grandmaster?s highest tested Black belt?, and being ?highest tested for in 17 years?. These are all very interesting claims Mr. Hartman. Care to elaborate on these? Especially when the Presas Family is traveling with some 8th degree black belts, while you yourself are only a 6th? *



I believe that those individuals are from the Philippines and are only visiting here. I do not know if they tested for those ranks or not; frankly, I would find it most unusual if a test was required for such a high rank.



> *
> Datu Worden is just as interesting. A rumor exists that at one time he disassociated himself from GrandMaster. This we cannot verify, and would appreciate if anyone could. *



Mr. Worden's students have addressed that matter here; see the first post in this thread:
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=543

He refers to "when I came back into the fold" and states that he "stepped out of the direct group years ago because I was crowding Professor for glory, HIS...GLORY." Based on what I have learned from Mr. Worden's supporters I think that your statement that he "disassociated himself" is much too strong; he felt that with the datu title he was being encouraged to grow in new directions, in addition to the above comment about crowding the Professor. If I am mistaken I am sure that one of Mr. Worden's supporters will correct me--I certainly do not mean to misrepresent his views.



> *
> It will be interesting to see how this resolves over the future.*



It is not clear to me what needs to be resolved in these particular matters.

I flipped through the martial arts magazines at the stands recently and saw "dueling ads" for seminars by the *Successor of Remy Presas*, Mr. Delaney, and the *True Heirs of Remy Presas*, his children. _This_ could benefit from resolution. Is there any hope of a high-level meeting of the players from the major organizations?


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 1, 2002)

Heirs : 

Jeff Delany claims he is the successor.  There was a release a while ago indicating that GM Presas had named him (and Dr. Shea) as such.

IMAF inc under Dr. Shea claims they are the succesors, based in part on the same press release, and part of the will.

The Presas family claims they are the successors based on bloodline and a request from GM Presas.

Those are the -only- groups I am aware of that are claiming successorship.  To the best of my knowledge, none of the Datus have made such a claim.  All seem intent on promoting the art, not neccisarily leading it.  Other Arnis groups have also been content to promote, not lead.  

*edit*Please note, I am only noting what I have seen, and am not endorcing any 1 organization over another. All have something to offer the Modern Arnis practitioner.  I have heard many very good things about the Family and the MOTTS from attendees of their recent seminars.  Hopefully 1 or both groups will swing up to my area and I'll be able to meet them.  *end edit*


Kodais claims : I'm in agreement with Mr. Koenig.  He does stir up trouble.  More accusations, but still without links to the proof.  Datu Worden has again made available the last interview, as well as an earlier one from 1999.  

:asian:


Edited by kaith to clarify a point.


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## Don Rearic (Apr 1, 2002)

Who is this vapid, little troglodyte, eh?

"We?" As in, "We remain?" 

Good grief, the Yakuza are after Datu Worden. 

No...really...someone is wearing the poop drawers today, aren't they? Have that checked out, Kodai.

I spoke with Datu a little while ago...hmm...we could address this point by point...but then, the nipping little dogs would find more pork chops on Usenet, _of all things, the last bastion of correct information on the Internet, to be sure,_ however...I think it best just to address it in this manner.

This guy is a goof.

I remain, _kubikiri._


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## Brian Johns (Apr 1, 2002)

I have one interesting point to make regarding this Sushi Kodai guy. That is, this guy admits that he never even met or worked with Professor Presas. If I recall correctly, I don't think that he even practices Modern Arnis. If this is correct, how is this Sushi Kodai guy even qualified to remark on various topics relating to Modern Arnis ?

What an idiot.
:flame:


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## arnisandyz (Apr 1, 2002)

Datu = chieften or leader of a village.

It is no concern of mine what these men do or say in there own village, they have their right, good or bad, it's their village!  You don't have to live there if you don't want to.  and as long as they don't go to war with you, why bother?

In a true sense, good or bad, these men are doing it in the traditional Pilipino way.  Why follow with the rest when you have the ability to lead your own village? (just be sure the ability is there and be ready to back it up from challangers).

Historically,  this has been the ways its been done.  Many different tribes many different styles.   This is one tactic invaders used to take over the PI, divide and conqueuor.  Is history repeating itself?  A happy note, the FMA survived and so will MA.

I would bet in combat the Datus who trained his fighters for war faired better than the ones who ware too concerned about how many Carabou the other Datus had.  Sorry, ramblings


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## Rob_Broad (Apr 1, 2002)

I am no expert in the world of Modern Arnis, but I have had been lucky enough to have attended a few events where Datu Hartman has been teaching.  I have thoroughly enjoyed the classes and seminars in which he has taught.  I also kow the people who are also teaching at these events and they are not likely to be associated with some flight by night guy as Susumu Kodai is insuating.

Datu Hartman is hosting a camp the first weekend of May and he has a pretty good lineup from what I have been told.  I like many others will recognized one of the names of the roster, Dr. Maung Gyi, this is a man who was one GM Presas' friends and is not likely to be associationg with a poser.

Susumu Kodai lighten up or please go elsewhere.  Martialtalk is a place for friendly discussion, and the way you are acting everybody here will be discussing how you have been acting, but we will do it in a friendly manner, not trying to tear someone to shreds.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 1, 2002)

I'm in the process of making a statement which such be ready in a day or two. You're fresh out of being suspended and you're starting up again. If you keep it up *I'll ban you myself!*

We have enough problems now without you adding to them!


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## Mao (Apr 2, 2002)

sushi kotex. Whoops, bad form, my apologigies.
As Renegade stated, your stirring poop again after being banned for the very same thing. I guess only wise people LEARN form their mistakes. Who do you think you are? Guess what, it DOESNT'T MATTER WHO YOU ARE! You are operating from a very narrow and relatively uninformed position. Never having met or trained with the Professor let alone knowing him well enough to know what he really thought about things. For the RECORD, I AM NOT A FOLLOWER of Kelly Worden. I am a FRIEND. Do you have any of those? Your all ready to pee on Tim for not having any, check yourself first. It was a heartfelt post that I put up because I feel that way! Not for any other reason. You say that Kaith got himself in the middle of something that he couldn't handle, which he could by the way, and again your doing THE VERY SAME THING. You must not be very smart. You sound more and more ignorant with every post. Keep on posting, it's a good laugh! You dishonor the Professor's memory by behaving the way you do. If you even practice modern arnis, does your teacher approve of your behavior? You'll probably say "yes" so you don't look so bad. People are more interested in coming together and getting along, in general, than you give credit for, or than your actions would show. Why don't you just honor Remy's memory and promote his art? That's what he wanted.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 2, 2002)

It's pretty scary when Mao and the Renegade agree on something. There are some misunderstandings between Worden's group and me at the moment that I plan on clearing up with an up coming post. We don't need you adding to the problem.

One misunderstanding I'll try to put to rest now is the Martial Talk forum itself. Some people from camp Worden have accused me of having this site for self promotion. This is incorrect. It is plain to see that the Modern Arnis section is a small part of this forum.

At the time of this post we have:
Total Posts: 16,037 
Total Threads: 1,488

The Modern Arnis section has:
1577 Posts 
110 Threads

Doing the math:
10% of the posts
7% of Threads

Yes the Modern Arnis section WAS the back bone of this forum, but it wasn't the only area of interest. The biggest section on this forum in the Kenpo area.

To give credit were credit is due (no money just a pat on the back), Dan McConnell was the one who gave me the idea of asking Kaith to put up the Modern Arnis section in the first place. I was talking to Dan on the phone and told him about the MT project. He said in passing that it would be nice if there was a place for the Modern Arnis people come hang out to share information. After I was done with the conversation I gave it some thought and asked Kaith if he could put up a section for the Modern Arnis people. He told me that there would be no problem in doing that. I later told Dan he gave me the idea and mentioned that we may ask him to become a moderator in the future if he was interested.

This forum is not mine, it's Kaith's. From what I see it's the best on the net for martial arts. No, we don't always play well with others, but it's not a tribute to Tim Hartman as it is accused to be. I would love to hear some input from our members on these accusations. I can be an SOB at times, and as Dan put it I'm like a force of nature when I show up at places, but Kaith doesn't deserve accusations of these kind going his way. This is a free site and he doesn't get paid. *He actually pays for this site to exist!*

That's all for now,
Datu Tim Hartman
Remy A. Presas' Modern Arnis
wmarnis@wmarnis.com 



:samurai: :jediduel: :duel: :jedi1:


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## Mao (Apr 2, 2002)

Hey Renegade,
  I would take the money over a pat on the back! By the way, I didn't say "force of nature", I said "white tornado", as opposed to a "black whole".


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## arnisador (Apr 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> 
> *I would love to hear some input from our members on these accusations. I can be an SOB at times*



Yes, I can attest to that. (Is this the input you were looking for?) Mr. Hartman can indeed be an SOB at times. He fractured my rib, after all.




> *
> This is a free site and he doesn't get paid. He actually pays for this site to exist!*


*

This is in fact correct--it costs Mr. Hubbard some money and MUCH time to run this place. Moderators volunteer some time but Mr. Hubbard volunteers much more time and the cash as well.

The Modern Arnis forum is just one forum here, and as Mr. Hartman indicates the Kenpo forum is really our biggest forum. MartialTalk in general and the Modern Arnis forum in particular are for everybody and anyone is welcome to contribute.*


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 2, 2002)

When we first started Martial Talk, the Modern Arnis section was the backbone.  We have since then become more 'rounded' as other arts have found us and gotten their own areas going.  As more styles become a popular topic here, we will add new forums for them.  I'm dedicated to making MT the best forum for the arts on the net.   There will always be forums that do a few well, but I want us to have the best blend we can.

Right now, we're seeing over 1,000 visitors a day.  This is members, and guests.  It also includes the search bots from places like Yahoo and Google.  We are moving almost 10GB of data a month.  In English, we're doing better than 70% of the sites on the web. 
See http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=1543 for this months stats.

Money?  Whats that?  We are partially funded by our advertisers.  The rest comes out of my pocket.  I'm hopeful that at the rate we are growing, that our advertising will max out, and the money will be available for when we require a server all our own.  ($300-400 a month for that).  If you have a martial arts related interest (school, organization, business) and want to help cover MT's costs, see our advertising section for rates.  They are dirt cheap. (based on our most recent stats, cost per impression on a premium sponsorship is about $0.0005 )  I limit the advertising to forum sponsorships and a premier spot.  No annoying popups, or 10000000 spams a day.
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=572

Guys like Kodai are a dime a dozen online.  They blow in, toss off a bunch of half-assed comments, and then sit back and watch everyone fight over their BS.  The solution to that is simple...ignore em.  The very rarely bring any real info to the table.  A few do, and sometimes, you can rehabilitate em...mostly ya just catch em, 'fix' em, and release them back into the wild, now docile and safe. 

Lets leave the wild BS behind, and just kick things up a few notches here.  The Kenpo guys have been discussing techniques for a while now.  Given the rich history behind Modern Arnis, surely we can do the same.  I've seen some great looks at Tapi-Tapi recently. There are other areas we can explore and expand.  I'd like to ask all practitioners of Modern Arnis to put aside their differences, get in here and make this the- best resource for the Modern Arnis artist there is.  We can be a real melting pot of information on the art and the artists. Weve got some of the Datus, and some of the MOTTSId like to see them all in here, making this section theirs.

This place is yours.  It can be filled with great information, or ********.  Personally, Id prefer the information, and I think most of you would too.

I cant fill this placeI simply put do not know enough.  Guys like Tim Hartman, Dan McConnell, David Hoffman, Randi Schea, Kelly Worden, the Presas Family, and about 1000 other folks.  You have the knowledge, the experience and the history.  Share it, and pass it on.

Thank you everyone.

Bob Hubbard
MartialTalk Admin


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## Mao (Apr 3, 2002)

Well put Bob. Thank you. I agree. We should ignore the bottom feeders that we cannot lure to the top.


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## Dan Anderson (Apr 3, 2002)

Hi Guys,

Time for my two cents worth.  I know both Kelly Worden and Tim Hartman and I have known them for a good number of years.  Kelly has been a player in the Pacific Northwest for many years and I met Tim back in (I believe) 1986-ish or so when I stayed in Buffalo for a month or so with his first instructor, John Bryant.  You want to hear something funny?  

*Kelly and Tim are doing the exact same thing!* 
:soapbox:

Hear me out.  They are both: passionate about Modern Arnis and its presentation, they both have a personal relationship with my teacher Remy Presas, they are both willing to speak their views and they are both willing to back them up.

_The only difference is their own personal perspectives._ 

So what the hell is the problem!?! :cuss:

I know them both, have been in close communication with them both and see NO PROBLEM with their respective viewpoints.  They differ in opinion and OTHERS have fanned the flames.  And I have told them both this.

There are roughly 6 billion people on this planet.  There's more than enough room for Kelly and Tim...hell, there's even room for me as well.

Kodai - thank you for bringing the newbies up to snuff but the current fire really needs no more gasoline.  If being polite doesn't do it, then re-read the previous messages. 

Dan Anderson
6th Degree Black Belt
Senior Master Modern Arnis


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## benstick (Apr 3, 2002)

I too believe that there are some really talented people that can contribute to GM Presasa's art from Datu's to MOTTS to IMAF. I know that I am new to this site but I have been listening for a while.I trained  with the Proffessor at camps and seminars and with Jeff Delaney and Tim Hartman . I will shamlessly take training from all to help me to be better and to share the Proffessor's art with others.
.


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## DWright (Apr 9, 2002)

> I will shamlessly take training from all to help me to be better and to share the Proffessor's art with others.QUOTE
> 
> I feel the same way.  I train with anyone who will train with me.
> 
> ...


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## Dan Anderson (Apr 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DWright _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


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## Cthulhu (Apr 10, 2002)

Yer goofy.




Cthulhu


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 10, 2002)

Just tens and twenties!


:cheers: :jediduel:


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 10, 2002)

Personally, I'd take the cookies...they seem to stay with me longer....

the money, ehh, it doesn't even pause to say goodbye.


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## DWright (Apr 12, 2002)

Alright gentlemen, ( and I use the term loosely.)

I have a compromise for you both since thank yous do not seem to be enough.

Senior master Dan,  I will be baking you a very large batch of chocolate chip cookies which I will give to you at the Summit in June.  In lieu of payment.

Datu Tim, you will receive your payment and Dans' payable in only tens and twenties. (you may have to make arrangements with Dan if you would prefer cookies.)

:rofl: :rofl: 

Respectfully?!


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