# Yusul Training in Hapkido



## jezr74 (Sep 28, 2014)

Is it common for Hapkidoist (is that the term used?) to also have yusul as part of their training?

Some of my classes involves yusul, but was wondering if this is very common? Or is it part and parcel?


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## Raymond (Sep 29, 2014)

I always understood "yusul" to denote a technique that was "soft", "pliable" or "yielding" which put into practice would mean a nonresistant technique or movement of some kind.  In that respect, a vast majority of Hapkido is yusul since one of the three key principles to most Hapkido is the principle of nonresistance.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 29, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> Is it common for Hapkidoist (is that the term used?) to also have yusul as part of their training?
> 
> Some of my classes involves yusul, but was wondering if this is very common? Or is it part and parcel?



perhaps it would be a good idea to define what you mean by Yusul.  In the Hapkido I learned, we used mostly English to describe things, so I may know it by another term.

As to Hapkido student/practitioner/ist/in, I don't think there is anything official, and if there were, what association could show why it ought to be what.  I think any of the terms I mentioned would let people know someone was a student/practitioner/ist/in, or whatever.  In other words, I don't think there is any one thing it 'has' to be called.


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## Raymond (Sep 29, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> perhaps it would be a good idea to define what you mean by Yusul.  In the Hapkido I learned, we used mostly English to describe things, so I may know it by another term.
> 
> As to Hapkido student/practitioner/ist/in, I don't think there is anything official, and if there were, what association could show why it ought to be what.  I think any of the terms I mentioned would let people know someone was a student/practitioner/ist/in, or whatever.  In other words, I don't think there is any one thing it 'has' to be called.



The only thing I would is to NOT add "-ka" to the end as it is a Japanese term (Judoka, Aikidoka etc) and shouldn't be mixed with Korean arts for various reasons (linguistic, political and so on).  I've seen a few people do that before.


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## WaterGal (Sep 29, 2014)

When you train yusul, what exactly are you doing?  Because as far as I know, that just means something like "soft/flowing technique", which is a principle of Hapkido rather than a specific drill.  Is your yusul practice, for example, to practice meshing blocks, orbits, things that like that flow and redirect the opponent's force?  Or are you practicing specific hoshinsul techniques that focus on the "yu" principle?


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## jezr74 (Sep 29, 2014)

A form of wrestling, similar to Judo\BJJ. Either starting from a clinch, back to back, on the ground or stand up.

Maybe it has multiple contexts.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 30, 2014)

Sorry, I am personally still having a difficult time understanding what you are doing that is not just choosing another technique to practice.  In the Hapkido I learned, we learned to protect ourselves from grabs, strikes, kicks, neck locks, bear hugs, head locks, and protecting ourselves while sitting or being sat on.  Do you do what you are describing as a mass drill, or as a practice of a technique you have learned against one or two opponents?  That is sort of what it sounds like.  As we spent time learning, we were taught techniques and then practiced (drilled) those techniques until we were proficient in their use.  

Essentially we learned to defend ourselves against any type of attack, as I described already; we were taught and practiced against another student until we were proficient.  What you are doing may just be the same thing that your teacher has chosen to name for a set of techniques protecting against what he sees as a related set.  I don't know.


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## Raymond (Sep 30, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> A form of wrestling, similar to Judo\BJJ. Either starting from a clinch, back to back, on the ground or stand up.
> 
> Maybe it has multiple contexts.



I don't want to sound rude, but it sounds like your instructor wanted to do some form of ground fighting and just picked a Korean term to vaguely apply to it.  As someone who separately trains a grappling art, I am glad to see your school practicing it though!


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## WaterGal (Sep 30, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> A form of wrestling, similar to Judo\BJJ. Either starting from a clinch, back to back, on the ground or stand up.
> 
> Maybe it has multiple contexts.



Oh, okay.  We do that regularly as part of our sparring practice, I've just usually heard it referred to as something like "ground sparring" or "ground fighting", rather than "yusul".


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## Raymond (Sep 30, 2014)

After doing some research, Choi called his art "Yoo Sul" when he first began instructing, and Yoo Sul was a Korean pronunciation of Ju jutsu.

This is just me playing detective and investigator now.  So, if this is accurate we can make the connection that the instructor here looks at grappling as "jiujitsu" and "jiujitsu" is associated with grappling due to BJJ's popularity (even though there are many many Japanese jiujitsu styles with various levels of emphasis on striking or grappling), and your instructor is placing the term "Yusul" in this relation to grappling which maybe he looks at as being "similar to jiujitsu" to create a very vague and stretching association.

Like a martial arts version of "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon".

My Korean isn't very good but I thought the Korean terms for grappling broke down to:  Maechigi = throwing and tackling techniques, Sulgi = standing grappling and clinching techniques, and Wasulgi = ground grappling techniques.  I've only read this breakdown of terms though in Gongkwon Yusul materials.


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## jezr74 (Sep 30, 2014)

I may be spelling it wrong? I've sent a message to my Korean friend to translate what I said. As I've had the discussion with her before and I think she explained it as a form of wrestling\throwing, as it is in English. But I have been known to be wrong.

Aside from the name, we have a night were we can spar with basic protective gear (shin\foot, gloves and mouth guards), using technique, principles, strikes, kicks, take downs and grappling etc, but does not stop your partner from going to work the next day. Different partners prefer different intensities or if you are both only interested in working a certain aspect you might say, only strikes and take downs allowed. So you have the option for a broad range of sparring conditions if your partner agrees.

Or you can just work on take downs and ground skills (no strikes), until I get more skilled I've been preferring to start on the ground, as I don't want to hurt anyone until I get my control in order. One way is starting on the ground with backs together then off you go. It can result in rear naked chokes, arm bars, locks, pinning etc. Also learning how to get out of situations etc.

So it's a more relaxed session as far as drills go, but more intense as far as the activity. With our instructor roaming between the groups giving tips, correcting or jumping in.

Hope that makes sense, well I was wondering if that's common in HKD schools, or is an aspect of some and is mainly just determined by the teacher and possible what they know and were taught?


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## Raymond (Sep 30, 2014)

That is a great way to train and I wish more schools were like yours!  

I think that is actually a pretty good way to call it.  I could see calling a night you emphasis sparring with throws, strikes and ground fighting "Yoo Sul", using it literally as a translation of "jujutsu", since "jujutsu" is an umbrella term to denote ancient Japanese battlefield arts that could encompass a wide array of techniques (with jujutsu being put behind another word or phrase to denote a certain "style" of jujutsu IE Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu being the Daito Ryu style of Aiki Jujutsu).  Much like many Taekwondo schools will have a "Hapkido" night where they might practice things typically associated with Hapkido such as wrist grab escapes, joint locking etc.  Maybe your dojang has a "Yoo Su" night where you practice more "jujutsu" style sparring/techniques (even though many things would overlap).

Or I might just be thinking about it too hard.    But that actually sounds pretty neat if that is the logic.  And if not, I might use that if I ever have my own dojang in the far away future.  :supcool:


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## jezr74 (Sep 30, 2014)

Raymond said:


> That is a great way to train and I wish more schools were like yours!
> 
> I think that is actually a pretty good way to call it.  I could see calling a night you emphasis sparring with throws, strikes and ground fighting "Yoo Sul", using it literally as a translation of "jujutsu", since "jujutsu" is an umbrella term to denote ancient Japanese battlefield arts that could encompass a wide array of techniques (with jujutsu being put behind another word or phrase to denote a certain "style" of jujutsu IE Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu being the Daito Ryu style of Aiki Jujutsu).  Much like many Taekwondo schools will have a "Hapkido" night where they might practice things typically associated with Hapkido such as wrist grab escapes, joint locking etc.  Maybe your dojang has a "Yoo Su" night where you practice more "jujutsu" style sparring/techniques (even though many things would overlap).
> 
> Or I might just be thinking about it too hard.    But that actually sounds pretty neat if that is the logic.  And if not, I might use that if I ever have my own dojang in the far away future.  :supcool:



Jujutsu translates to Yusul, from English to Korean. So most likely as an umbrella term it's the context that's important.


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## jezr74 (Oct 1, 2014)

My Korean friend described the word yusul as powerful, and Yoo Sul as super natural, magic.

Not sure where that leaves it.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 1, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> My Korean friend described the word yusul as powerful, and Yoo Sul as super natural, magic.
> 
> Not sure where that leaves it.



One needs to know the Korean characters involved.  I would have thought it were just two different transliterations.


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## WaterGal (Oct 1, 2014)

After a little research, it's &#50976;&#49696;, which translates as "jiujitsu".

I think jezr's Korean friend is pranking them.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 2, 2014)

I would suggest that the Yu in question is the Yu of Kang-Yu.

Sul refers to techniques and principles. So Yu Sul would be 'practicing techniques and principles of a Yu nature', as opposed to a Kang nature.

See here: http://taekwondobible.com/tkdbible/comment/ky.html

I'd say it's somewhat analogous to the Ju of Judo (the Korean form is called Yudo) and Jujutsu, although the Korean expression of the principle through Yusul may look and feel different to Jujutsu. 

The principle of resistance through acceptance and redirection, rather than direct resistance. That's a rather wide ranging principle that could include anything not involving direct resistance.


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## jezr74 (Oct 2, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> After a little research, it's &#50976;&#49696;, which translates as "jiujitsu".
> 
> I think jezr's Korean friend is pranking them.



I did see that using Google translate, but wasn't sure how it ties from translating from a English translation of Japanese to Korean.

It may well be funny to them. But along with allthe comments, everyone is a little correct so far.




Gnarlie said:


> I would suggest that the Yu in question is the Yu of Kang-Yu.
> 
> Sul refers to techniques and principles. So Yu Sul would be 'practicing techniques and principles of a Yu nature', as opposed to a Kang nature.
> 
> ...



It's starting to make sense, I'm going to see if I can find a native Korean speaker at work tomorrow just to quell my curiosity now. My friend is in S. Korea, so is hard asking questions over Viber.


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## WaterGal (Oct 6, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> I would suggest that the Yu in question is the Yu of Kang-Yu.
> 
> Sul refers to techniques and principles. So Yu Sul would be 'practicing techniques and principles of a Yu nature', as opposed to a Kang nature.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I looked at the jujitsu Wikipedia page, and it says: 





> "J&#363;" can be translated to mean "gentle, soft, supple, flexible, pliable, or yielding." "Jutsu"  can be translated to mean "art" or "technique" and represents  manipulating the opponent's force against himself rather than  confronting it with one's own force.[SUP][1][/SUP]



So I think they both _mean_ the same thing, even if they may or may not _refer_ to exactly the same thing, if that makes sense.  Like how the names "hapkido" and "aikido" have the same meaning, but are fairly different.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 6, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, I looked at the jujitsu Wikipedia page, and it says:
> 
> So I think they both _mean_ the same thing, even if they may or may not _refer_ to exactly the same thing, if that makes sense.  Like how the names "hapkido" and "aikido" have the same meaning, but are fairly different.


Exactly, different expressions of similar concepts. The Korean versions perhaps influenced by some uniquely Korean thought.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 6, 2014)

Sul is the Korean equivalent of jutsu. It means technique (essentially).

Yudo is the Korean pronunciation of Judo, and Yusul is the Korean rendering of Jujutsu. Hapkido techniques are common to many grappling arts, including jujutsu, which Choi clamed to be trained in, though Choi's training in jujutsu and in what ryu is a matter of some debate (according to the founder, he trained in Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu under Takeda, though this is not universally accepted as being true). When Choi first began teaching, he called his art a number of different names, including yawara, before landing on hapkido. The first school opened up to teach the art was Seo Bok Seob's, and he called it "Hapki Yu Kwon Sul." It was later shortened to hapkido.

Whatever his background, the techniques are very similar, though hapkido traditionally does not have the ground fighting emphasis of BJJ, though some schools/organizations have incorporated BJJ into their curriculums.

As for spelling, English spelling varies depending upon the Romanization method used; sul and sool are both acceptable, though I have never seen any variations on 'yu.'


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## Raymond (Oct 6, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Sul is the Korean equivalent of jutsu. It means technique (essentially).
> 
> Yudo is the Korean pronunciation of Judo, and Yusul is the Korean rendering of Jujutsu. Hapkido techniques are common to many grappling arts, including jujutsu, which Choi clamed to be trained in, though Choi's training in jujutsu and in what ryu is a matter of some debate (according to the founder, he trained in Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu under Takeda, though this is not universally accepted as being true). When Choi first began teaching, he called his art a number of different names, including yawara, before landing on hapkido. The first school opened up to teach the art was Seo Bok Seob's, and he called it "Hapki Yu Kwon Sul." It was later shortened to hapkido.
> 
> ...



I don't know if I would say that Hapki Yu Kwon Sul was simply "shortened" to Hapkido as the subtraction of Sul and the addition of Do are pretty big.  

Jutsu arts in Japan were arts that strictly focused on the efficacy of combat.  Where as a Do art such as Aikido are more a lifestyle where the main focus of the art is harmonizing the body with the mind and personal development through the practice of martial techniques, and fighting ability being secondary.  So taking Hapki Yu Kwon Sul (which I would believe translates roughly as Soft style of Energy Joining Techniques or something like that) to the "Way of Harmonizing Energy" shows a big change in philosophy of the art from strictly a fighting system to a more personal means of development through martial art.  

I know I'm just nit picking but its an interesting point in my opinion.

Also, the evolution of Brazilian Jiujitsu has very little relation to any of the traditional Japanese jujutsu systems.  In reality, BJJ came from Judo newaza training, so it is a generation removed from Japanese jujutsu and only ended up being called "Brazilian Jiujitsu" most likely because Judo wasn't really well known in Brazil by that name and was still called "Kano's jiujitsu/jujutsu".  I believe the story goes that the Gracie side (because I don't know much of the Franca lineagee) of BJJ came from them training in Judo under Mitsuyo Maeda who was very good at newaza and he taught some of the Gracies.  Carlos trained Judo, and when his Judo instructor was out he took over classes and basically kept doing it on his own even after the instructors returned.  Basically going "yeah we learned enough from you and now have our own system".  It'd be the equivalent of a BJJ blue belt today going and opening his own school, giving himself a black belt and going "I made my own art".  

But back to Hapkido.  Suh Bok-sup was a Judo black belt and Judo did have limited ground fighting.  I'm not familiar with Suh's curriculum of Hapki Yu Kwon Sul, but if I had any ground fighting in it I have to believe that he incorporated his own Judo knowledge into what Dojunim Choi taught him.  

This is just my personal feeling, but I know BJJ is responsible for the making ground fighting popular in recent years.  However, if I were to include extensive ground fighting into a Hapkido curriculum I think it would be more historically meaningful to say that it is influenced by Judo.  I would also say that the principles of Judo ground fighting being to pin or submit the opponent from a dominant top position is more meaningful to Hapkido since the aim of Hapkido's martial application is self defense and the emphasis on pinning from the top is better for that, rather than the style of being comfortable fighting from the back which is more prevalent in sport BJJ.


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## K-man (Oct 6, 2014)

Raymond said:


> Jutsu arts in Japan were arts that strictly focused on the efficacy of combat.  *Where as a Do art such as Aikido are more a lifestyle where the main focus of the art is harmonizing the body with the mind and personal development through the practice of martial techniques, and fighting ability being secondary.*  So taking Hapki Yu Kwon Sul (which I would believe translates roughly as Soft style of Energy Joining Techniques or something like that) to the "Way of Harmonizing Energy" shows a big change in philosophy of the art from strictly a fighting system to a more personal means of development through martial art.
> 
> I know I'm just nit picking but its an interesting point in my opinion.


Not wanting to derail the thread but I learn Aikido *only* for its martial value. I couldn't give a rat's for the harmonisation and personal development. Aikido is the epitome of efficacy of combat, maximum effect from minimum effort.

Now, back to Hapkido!


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## jezr74 (Oct 6, 2014)

I haven't done enough of it to be able to differentiate jujutsu or judo, or know JJ or Judo enough to qualify it. I'll ask more questions of my teacher and here as I progress.

But I do find the language and meanings interesting, nothing seems to be cut and dry in MA.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 7, 2014)

Raymond said:


> ...
> 
> This is just my personal feeling, but I know BJJ is responsible for the making ground fighting popular in recent years.  However, if I were to include extensive ground fighting into a Hapkido curriculum I think it would be more historically meaningful to say that it is influenced by Judo.  I would also say that the principles of Judo ground fighting being to pin or submit the opponent from a dominant top position is more meaningful to Hapkido since the aim of Hapkido's martial application is self defense and the emphasis on pinning from the top is better for that, rather than the style of being comfortable fighting from the back which is more prevalent in sport BJJ.



In the Hapkido I learned, between 1st Dan and 2nd Dan, I was taught ground techniques: from sitting to being on my back.  If I remember when I am home, I will see what GM Kimm does or does not show of ground techniques.  It may or may not be significant that my GM studied Judo to the black belt level.


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## Raymond (Oct 7, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> In the Hapkido I learned, between 1st Dan and 2nd Dan, I was taught ground techniques: from sitting to being on my back.  If I remember when I am home, I will see what GM Kimm does or does not show of ground techniques.  It may or may not be significant that my GM studied Judo to the black belt level.



There are tons of overlap in techniques between the arts.  I was just stating my own personal opinion and take on it.  Nothing official or meant to tell others what or what not to do.  General Choi's original TKD manuals had lots of ground and sitting techniques but it wasn't really "ground fighting" or grappling in my personal opinion (having done HKD, TKD and submission wrestling).  

Hapkido as practiced in many dojangs is an eclectic art and many instructors are happy to incorporate other arts techniques as long as they work and adhere to that instructors principles.  So an HKD instructor for example could teach an escape from side control that could come from Judo, BJJ, or wrestling and be nearly the same technique.  It would just depend on "where" he learned it.  

Or like wrist locks are done in Chinese arts, Hapkido, Aikido, various Japanese jujutsu systems, BJJ, and so on.  But I personally learned the wrist lock part of my game from Hapkido, so when I show them or do them to people in sparring, I can say it was a "Hapkido" technique even if it isn't "owned" by Hapkido per se.   

There are many roads that lead to the same destination.    That's why I love Hapkido.  It is so many different things to so many different people, with a "mysterious" and controversial history as to how Choi Yong-sul came to learn his art.  There's so much room for discussion on history, ideas, techniques and so on.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 7, 2014)

Raymond said:


> I don't know if I would say that Hapki Yu Kwon Sul was simply "shortened" to Hapkido as the subtraction of Sul and the addition of Do are pretty big.



Agreed, though I was mainly focusing on the name changes that the art went through before it Choi and Seob landed on Hapkido. If I recall, Choi went through several, which gives less of an impression of him changing the emphasis of the art from strict fighting to lifestyle, than him simply trying to find a name that he liked.

From what I can tell, the arts biggest changes happened with Ji Han Jae and Kim Moo Hong, who introduced the plethora of kicking techniques to the art. From what I understand, Hapkido had mostly meat and potatoes kicks as it was taught by Choi.


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## Raymond (Oct 7, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Agreed, though I was mainly focusing on the name changes that the art went through before it Choi and Seob landed on Hapkido. If I recall, Choi went through several, which gives less of an impression of him changing the emphasis of the art from strict fighting to lifestyle, than him simply trying to find a name that he liked.
> 
> From what I can tell, the arts biggest changes happened with Ji Han Jae and Kim Moo Hong, who introduced the plethora of kicking techniques to the art. From what I understand, Hapkido had mostly meat and potatoes kicks as it was taught by Choi.



Yeah, that all sounds pretty correct.  I have some books on Daito Ryu (never trained in it with an instructor though) and I don't recall seeing many kicks at all.  I only remember some front kicks, knees and side kicks to things like the knees, back of knee or groin during various close quarter defenses against grabs and such.  I've downloaded as many Bong Soo Han instructionals as I could find and his kicking is different than Ji Han Jae's.  Bong Soo Han seemed to teach more of the style of kicking found in Taekwondo or Tang Soo Do.  While the kicking in the Ji Han Jae vids on Youtube from user Russmor seem to be way different and I am not familiar with them.  They made my knees hurt just watching.  

While not related to Hapkido, Black Belt Magazine this month had a nice article on Gichin Funakoshi's change in his Shotokan Karate from a "Karate-jutsu" (empty hand techniques) over to Karate-do (Way of the Empty Hand) and talks about the justsu and do differences at a philosophical level.


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