# Why is it that Budo Taijutsu attracts so many law enforcement & military people?



## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 23, 2006)

Okay, so why do you think that Budo Taijutsu attracts so many law enforcement, security and military people? I actually think that there are multiple reasons but I am interested in hearing your opinions.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Monadnock (Jul 23, 2006)

Are there any statistics to show that more LEO, Security and Military personnel choose BBT over other styles?

My impression is that they typically gravitate towards BJJ and MMA. But I only have my own experiences to go on.


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## Bigshadow (Jul 23, 2006)

At our small dojo we have had 3 LEOs and 2 Prison Security personnel train with us.  One of them just started last week.  I don't know if it is true that BT attracts them, or if there are any statistics regarding it.

Conversely, I have often wondered if many martial artists from other styles gravitate toward BBT after many years of their primary art as it seems many of the people I personally know practiced other arts for many years.  However, I am sure it is just my circle rather than a trend.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 23, 2006)

I do not know about the attraction of Law enforcement and related type people to Budo Taijutsu, I have never been to one and I do not believe there are any in my area, but I did recently check out a couple of MMA schools and they were loaded with them. One seemed to have the entire local swat team as members. 

But from what little I know about Budo Taijutsu it would make sense to me that they would gravitate towards that as well.


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## Don Roley (Jul 23, 2006)

I do not think there is a lot of military and law enforcement in the Bujinkan as compared to other arts. 

But I think those that do may be attracted by two things.

1- Hatsumi not only acknowledges that firearms exist, but has a book out on their use.

2- The guys that have to carry half their body weight in gear realize that an art built around heavy armor still has some merit.


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## Jonathan Randall (Jul 23, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I do not think there is a lot of military and law enforcement in the Bujinkan as compared to other arts.
> 
> But I think those that do may be attracted by two things.
> 
> ...


 
On the boards (MT, etc.) BBT practioners with _some _sort of military or LEO experience are in greater proportion, in my experience, to those of other arts. However; my experience is limited to the boards on BBT, for the most part.

I also think the fact that you deal with weapons frequently and non-sporting scenarios and techniques makes BBT very attractive to LEO's and Armed Forces personnel. 

Just two cents from a noninvolved spectator.


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## Drac (Jul 23, 2006)

A long, long time ago when I became a cop there were no schools that taught Budo Taijutsu..There seemed to be a TKD school on every other street corner and nver wishing to be part of the herd I chose the only Shorin-Ryu dojo in the area..Had there been BT school I'd have given it a look because as *Don Roley* says "The guys that have to carry half their body weight in gear realize that an art built around heavy armor still has some merit"...


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## Carol (Jul 23, 2006)

Uh, because it's easier to sell LEO's on being a Ninja than an art that involves a lot of Kata and/or manipulation of chi?


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## budoboy (Jul 24, 2006)

Repeating what others have said here I don't believe BBT has any more police or military involved than any other arts that I know of.  I'm a cop and most of my co-workes train some type of MMA or RBSD system.  I did Bujinkan for years and knew a few cop practicioners and now do Systema and train with a few cops.  Not much has changed.

I think police officers are interested in what works.  Usually they don't care too much for traditional foreign customs or weapons, etc. that they won't face day to day.

Hatsumi Sensei does do some gun work but I've only seen very little of it.  The use of armor only applies to small group of police officers who wear armor heavy enough to change their movement considerably.  Also doing any kind of defensive tactics in that armor will inspire necessary adaptations.

Jeff


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## Monadnock (Jul 24, 2006)

Another thing I have seen, is that when one officer gets involved, he usually tells his colleagues, and more join in. So for Martial Arts in general, I think there tends to be more people in that line of work overall than others.

Come to think of it, a lot of cops like Aikido and Judo was quite popular for the military.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 24, 2006)

Okay, since this is an opinion question I will post some of what I have seen.  Most of the top American Budo Taijutsu practitioners have a background in the military, LEO, security etc.  Think of, Phil Legare, Prather, Seago, Hoban, etc and the list goes on.  Now, I have almost never been to a Dojo that did not have an LEO, Military or security presence.  So why do people think that Budo Taijutsu attracts these people and if you think it does not attract these kinds of people based on your experience then post why as well.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## rutherford (Jul 24, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Uh, because it's easier to sell LEO's on being a Ninja than an art that involves a lot of Kata and/or manipulation of chi?


 
While there are certainly lots AND LOTS of kata within the schools of the Bujinkan, they're used as examples of movement that teach specific lessons and not simply tools for memory practiced by rote.

I think the emphasis on flowing and correct movement, with exploration and adaptability as major training goals, brings people who have experienced violence to BBT.

Military and LEO people understand that violence is chaotic, fast, and brutal.  Adaptability and an understanding of human movement is essential for surviving it, and how many kata you've memorized is not.


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## budoboy (Jul 24, 2006)

I see the number of professional soldier/security types at the top of the Bujinkan hierarchy as a result of several factors:

1) People in these fields often take training seriously and since their careers often span decades then so does their training.  This long-term commitment to practice will eventually, by attrition, make these people seniors practicioners/instructors.

2) Hatsumi Sensei takes interest in and promotes these people, in my opinion, based on the credibility these people bring the Bujinkan, their potential to expand the art into large governmental organizations and a desire to keep the art relevant to combat.

3) On a negative note military and law enforcement types sometimes have a desire exert social dominance over others.  For some this is part of the attraction to their career paths.  The hierarchacal rank structure in many martial arts often fulfills this need to feel important or command respect.

These are only my opinions and I certainly welcome debate.

Jeff


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 24, 2006)

I once mentioned to my current teacher that I thought it would be interesting to see Jeff Prather's video on military CQC based on Budo Taijutsu (which I still haven't seen personally). He said that it probably wouldn't be very interesting at all. When I asked why, he said that the reason I found it interesting was the same reason he wasn't interested in it.:idunno:


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 24, 2006)

Nimravus,

If you get a chance to see Pather's CQC based video or his Extreme Disarms DVD they are both good to watch and have some valuable information.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## ginshun (Jul 25, 2006)

I think that the MA's in general attract LEOs, and BT doesn't really attract a higher percentage than any other one.  From my own personal experiece, I think a lot of LEO type people gravitate toward Aikido and MMA more than they do toward BT.  I personally think that this may be because tiajutsu has so many techniques that are designed to actually harm the other person.  Aikido and MMA techniques are designed to submit as opposed to actually kill or maim, where as many taijutsu techniques can be used "softer" so to speak,but  that is not how they were specifically designed.

Or maybe I am way off here, dunno thats how it seems to me though.


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## Don Roley (Jul 29, 2006)

I think I figured out the reason why it seems that so many police and military study Bujinkan.

Some martial artists also practice with firearms. But their firearm practice is seperated from their martial arts practice. They do not learn how to draw and shoot while grappling with someone in the dojo. But Bujinkan does. You use a firearm with the same principles as your taijutsu and just as a sword compliments your taijutsu but does not require a whole new outlook on the way you do things, firearms and their use are not seperate but part of taijutsu.

So here we discuss a lot of things about firearms. People who have been around firearms chime in with their insight about the realities to let those that are only learning in the dojo to understand the reason behind many things. Since they talk about their experiences in the police and military they stand out on a martial arts board. And that is why it would seem that there are a lot of military and police in the Bujinkan. I think that there are plenty of people in other arts that have the same experiences, but it just does not have any relevance to what they do in the dojo and so they don't mention it here.


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## mystic warrior (Jul 29, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Okay, since this is an opinion question I will post some of what I have seen. Most of the top American Budo Taijutsu practitioners have a background in the military, LEO, security etc. Think of, Phil Legare, Prather, Seago, Hoban, etc and the list goes on. Now, I have almost never been to a Dojo that did not have an LEO, Military or security presence. So why do people think that Budo Taijutsu attracts these people and if you think it does not attract these kinds of people based on your experience then post why as well.
> 
> Brian R. VanCise
> www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


As a former marine, I would that the art is a no BS kind of art.
Its not a sport art, it gets to the meat of what it is like to fight some one.
Also it dosn't pretend to be some thing it is not. Like some arts say that they are fighting arts.
But most of them are just waste of time and money and for the most part sport.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 6, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I think I figured out the reason why it seems that so many police and military study Bujinkan.
> 
> Some martial artists also practice with firearms. But their firearm practice is seperated from their martial arts practice. They do not learn how to draw and shoot while grappling with someone in the dojo. But Bujinkan does. You use a firearm with the same principles as your taijutsu and just as a sword compliments your taijutsu but does not require a whole new outlook on the way you do things, firearms and their use are not seperate but part of taijutsu.
> 
> So here we discuss a lot of things about firearms. People who have been around firearms chime in with their insight about the realities to let those that are only learning in the dojo to understand the reason behind many things. Since they talk about their experiences in the police and military they stand out on a martial arts board. And that is why it would seem that there are a lot of military and police in the Bujinkan. I think that there are plenty of people in other arts that have the same experiences, but it just does not have any relevance to what they do in the dojo and so they don't mention it here.


 
Hey Don,

I think that is just one of the many reasons why LEO's, Military and Security personel like Budo Taijutsu. (Definately it is an important reason)
I also think that many find it attractive because of the body dynamics used and that they are consistently learning how to off balance and acheive positions of control that are not size, strength relative.  Just a thought.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Aug 6, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> I also think that many find it attractive because of the body dynamics used and that they are consistently learning how to off balance and acheive positions of control that are not size, strength relative.



I actually doubt that people plan that far ahead before beginning training in any martial art, professionals or not.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 6, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I actually doubt that people plan that far ahead before beginning training in any martial art, professionals or not.


 
Maybe, maybe not.  For a new person, probably not.  Many of the professionals that train in Budo Taijutsu that I know have trained in other arts before and I believe this is something that they are looking for.  

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## SAMurai9964 (Aug 7, 2006)

Just a few thoughs on the topic at hand:

I think that professional defenders (soldier, polices officer, security etc.) are attracted to martial arts in general.  In many cases the american mind set about martial arts is that: if you train at any MA school you will know how to fight well.  For those of us who have beeing training for a few years, we kow this is not the case.  For those of us who began our journey in a martial art like Karate or Tae kwon do,  from a real combat standpoint we felt there was something missing.  The moving meditation aspects of those martial arts while appealing from a spiritual and mental standpoint, they unfortunately take a while for actual combat compentance.  Besides Funakoshi looked down on sparring and fighting and blah blah... boring history lesson...( not that it's unimportant,but I digress).   Anyway,  Some practisioners look to fill holes in their previous training,  or find something that they feel is more practical.  Martial arts like Systema, Krav maga, mma,  budo taijutsu in all it's forms, be it Bujinkan, Jizaikan, Genbukan or To-shin-do  are designed so that a high level of combat compentence can be aquired at a quicker pace than some other martial arts.  which from makes sense.  What good does it do an army if their fight training takes a while to be come competant fighters, they run out of soldiers really quick.  

I also feel that Budo taijutsu itself is appealing because of it's link with ninjutsu.  As we all know the romanticism of the ninja can be an excellent sellign point, for either a school or an individual.  At least It was for me in the beginning.  That is why i started training in karate, becasue I wanted to be a ninja. i was told that ninja training didn't exsist anymore. besides at 8 years old in suburban chicago, with ex hippy parents how was I to know the difference.  I'm sure many of you are looking back and thinking the same thing. 

Of course we grow and mature, and our understandings of the world change, we go on trainng and working hard.  Then some years later...  we find out that a school that teaches ninjutsu actually exists, and is is right behind your old high school, then all these child hood memories and dreams come back, and we have to check it out.  Again we start training and through hard training our childhood misconceptions are hopefully ironed out, and we are mystified by the truth which is almost more amazing in some cases then the legends we had come to dismiss.

I guess what I 'm trying to say is that even professional defenders, may still deep down want to be a ninja when they grow up.

Sorry, I'm kind of long winded, thank you for your time:asian:


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## Don Roley (Aug 8, 2006)

> I guess what I 'm trying to say is that even professional defenders, may still deep down want to be a ninja when they grow up.



You may have a point. I just had an experience with someone introducing themselves who _just had_ to let everyone know his experience in an elite military unit. As far as I can tell, his experiences has no relevance to ninjutsu and certainly not to the conversation we were having at the time about a Japanese term and history. And yet, he felt the need to let everyone know that he used to be in the military.


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## budoboy (Aug 14, 2006)

Don,

I'm assuming the guy was new and just wanted to establish that he wasn't a dweeb.  This shows a little insecurity on his part though.

I've also run into a certain cult (or should I say group) within the Bujinkan which will act very aloof towards you until they find out you are military or police.  Then they are your best buddies.  That is crap too.  Everyone has experiences and many things to offer the group.

Jeff


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 29, 2006)

budoboy said:
			
		

> Don,
> 
> I'm assuming the guy was new and just wanted to establish that he wasn't a dweeb. This shows a little insecurity on his part though.
> 
> ...


 
I am pretty sure I know which group you are talking about! (like 99.9% sure)

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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