# Took a CQB class yesterday...



## Oni_Kadaki (Feb 22, 2021)

My local range has an instructor who offers advanced training, and, in celebrating being fully vaccinated, I signed up. The class focused on the psychological/physiological effects of CQB, as well as an introduction to how to enter rooms/ turn corners, and handle doors. The course culminated in several scenarios where I was in a shoot house, armed with a Glock loaded up with simunitions, and people designated to play the roles of hostages, bystanders, and, of course, hostiles. 

All in all, it was fantastic, and I learned a lot. The psychological/physiological bit I mostly knew from experience and my civilian career field, but the room clearing stuff he taught me blew my mind, and the scenarios forced me to try things I hadn't before (e.g. one-handed use of a pistol while simultaneously using my flashlight... I need more practice with both). All in all, it was a great experience, I intend to do the instructor's Israeli CQB pistol course next!


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## CB Jones (Feb 22, 2021)

Curious of what was the instructors credentials?

Was it one man room clearing or multiple people?  Did they teach slicing the pie and entries (dynamic or deliberate)?


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## Oni_Kadaki (Feb 22, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> Curious of what was the instructors credentials?
> 
> Was it one man room clearing or multiple people?  Did they teach slicing the pie and entries (dynamic or deliberate)?



This is the instructor's website. If you search on YouTube, you'll find his videos from Tactical Rifleman. https://www.primecombattraining.com/

It was single-man clearing, Israeli style. The idea is to clear the entire room before you fully enter it, minimizing the target you ever give any occupant. The footwork is very counterintuitive, but it seems to work pretty well... now I just need practice. Lots and lots of practice.


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## CB Jones (Feb 22, 2021)

Oni_Kadaki said:


> This is the instructor's website. If you search on YouTube, you'll find his videos from Tactical Rifleman. https://www.primecombattraining.com/



Nice credentials.  I like it when instructors can teach from their own experience.



Oni_Kadaki said:


> It was single-man clearing, Israeli style. The idea is to clear the entire room before you fully enter it, minimizing the target you ever give any occupant. The footwork is very counterintuitive, but it seems to work pretty well... now I just need practice. Lots and lots of practice.



Not sure about the Israeli style but that would be a deliberate entry....and probably what we call slicing the pie. 

Deliberate entry has become more popular with teams instead of dynamic.


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## Oni_Kadaki (Feb 22, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> Nice credentials.  I like it when instructors can teach from their own experience.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's a different form of slicing the pie. An NCO in my squadron is a SWAT instructor, and he tried to teach it to us. What he taught was better than the traditional method of slicing the pie, but what I learned yesterday was a much, much more refined version of that.


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## CB Jones (Feb 23, 2021)

Oni_Kadaki said:


> What he taught was better than the traditional method of slicing the pie, but what I learned yesterday was a much, much more refined version of that.



How so?


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 23, 2021)

Can either of you define "israelie style" for me?   It seems to be a trend to call things "israelie" now days for some reason like "israelie" carry.   But to be fair you cant clear a room via barging in without at least 2+ people anyway or your going to get shot in the side or back.   Actually i think there is a good chance the first person in will get shot in said situations without some form of explosive device being used anyway. (be it a frag or flashbang or breaching charge)

And the U.S doesnt seem to use shields a lot police wise, i have seen on TV (Doccumentary) a shield be used by a breaching memeber for armed police once.   They are used more for not firearm armed persons though.  (as i dont think the shields held by the support units are normally ballstic unless its a armed one)


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## CB Jones (Feb 23, 2021)

Rat said:


> Can either of you define "israelie style" for me? It seems to be a trend to call things "israelie" now days for some reason like "israelie" carry.



True.  The Israelis are recognized as having good sound tactics so when people learn their tactics they like to market them as Israeli style....but many of their tactics are the same that other teams are using as well with just small variations.



Rat said:


> But to be fair you cant clear a room via barging in without at least 2+ people anyway or your going to get shot in the side or back. Actually i think there is a good chance the first person in will get shot in said situations without some form of explosive device being used anyway. (be it a frag or flashbang or breaching charge)



True you need a minnimum of 2 people to do a dynamic entry.  Although it's not recommended you can do deliberate entries with one person if you are in a pinch.

Actually dynamic entries without an explosive breach work really well.  I actually prefer it if you have good teammates over the deliberate style when it comes to me not getting shot.  I think the deliberate style is safer for noncombatives because it is much slower.  



Rat said:


> And the U.S doesnt seem to use shields a lot police wise, i have seen on TV (Doccumentary) a shield be used by a breaching memeber for armed police once. They are used more for not firearm armed persons though. (as i dont think the shields held by the support units are normally ballstic unless its a armed one)



That has changed in the last few years.  Teams are going more to the deliberate entry which makes it easier to use shields.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 23, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> True.  The Israelis are recognized as having good sound tactics so when people learn their tactics they like to market them as Israeli style....but many of their tactics are the same that other teams are using as well with just small variations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Would you be able to describe the difference between deliberate and dynamic entry in layman's terms? I'm starting to piece it together, but not fully there yet.


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## CB Jones (Feb 23, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Would you be able to describe the difference between deliberate and dynamic entry in layman's terms? I'm starting to piece it together, but not fully there yet.



Dynamic is a fast entry as you open the door or get to a open door room with multiple operators where you dominate the room.  It's typically done with 2‐3 operators entering a room while the rest of the team moves to the next room.  The first 2 operators to enter clear their respective sides and the 3rd clears the middle of the room.  In a dynamic entry you keep moving along your area while you are clearing.

A deliberate entry you approach the door open it and wait (called letting it breath) then you slowly clear the room as best as you can from the doorway before you enter and the team moves forward.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 23, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> Dynamic is a fast entry as you open the door or get to a open door room with multiple operators where you dominate the room.  It's typically done with 2‐3 operators entering a room while the rest of the team moves to the next room.  The first 2 operators to enter clear their respective sides and the 3rd clears the middle of the room.  In a dynamic entry you keep moving along your area while you are clearing.
> 
> A deliberate entry you approach the door open it and wait (called letting it breath) then you slowly clear the room as best as you can from the doorway before you enter and the team moves forward.


Ah. I can see how the deliberate would be safer for any noncombatives, but that would be run against the risk of letting people prepare for your entrance/throw something out at you guys instead. Thanks.


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## Oni_Kadaki (Feb 23, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> How so?



My unit's civilian SWAT instructor taught us a minor variation of the usual footwork (slicing with the foot closest to the room forward, to minimize the chance they will catch sight of your leg before you have them in sight. Imri taught me to actually pigeontoe my stance to allow me to gradually shift my way around the corner, minimizing my profile the entire time. It takes a lot of practice, and it feels VERY unnatural at first, but it seems to work well.



Rat said:


> Can either of you define "israelie style" for me?   It seems to be a trend to call things "israelie" now days for some reason like "israelie" carry.   But to be fair you cant clear a room via barging in without at least 2+ people anyway or your going to get shot in the side or back.   Actually i think there is a good chance the first person in will get shot in said situations without some form of explosive device being used anyway. (be it a frag or flashbang or breaching charge)
> 
> And the U.S doesnt seem to use shields a lot police wise, i have seen on TV (Doccumentary) a shield be used by a breaching memeber for armed police once.   They are used more for not firearm armed persons though.  (as i dont think the shields held by the support units are normally ballstic unless its a armed one)



This is going to sound stupid, but have you seen John Wick? He shoots with his pistol pretty close to his face. I had never seen someone shoot with their arms that collapsed before, but, when I looked it up, people said it's derived from Israeli CQB tactics (I forget where I read that, sorry). Fast forward to Sunday, Imri explained that, because he pies the room so close to the wall, you have to practice firing from a collapsed position, without the usual presentation of your arms fully extended and nearly locked.



Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Would you be able to describe the difference between deliberate and dynamic entry in layman's terms? I'm starting to piece it together, but not fully there yet.



Dynamic is basically a team of at least two (preferably four) "flowing" from room to room, the second man in going so close behind the first that, in theory, he takes out the bad guy to the first man's back before said bad guy can shoot him from behind. The key with dynamic is that it's fast, and your team has to know each other really well, otherwise the flow is interrupted, and somebody is left without someone watching their back for too long (which can literally be a matter of seconds). 

Deliberate, by contrast, is slow and methodical. You "slice the pie" before you ever enter the room to establish that everything but the corners are clear. Then, when everybody is ready, you enter the room together (if you have a team). It's slower than dynamic, but it can be quieter, and its safer if you have a lone officer. Also, for units like mine, where everybody has to be able to work with everybody (as opposed to dedicated teams), and we don't practice enough for everyone to be comfortable with dynamic, deliberate is preferable.


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## CB Jones (Feb 23, 2021)

Oni_Kadaki said:


> when I looked it up, people said it's derived from Israeli CQB tactics



I don't know where it was derived from but all teams do that.  Alot of tactics were taught to other agencies by LAPD starting in the 70s.

It comes from dynamic entry where you need to stay compact to negotiate through doors and around obstacles and teammates.

I think John Wicks style comes more from 3 gun competition where you want to speed up reloading process.

But most operators as they fire "punch out" and they extend their arms and then return to the compact position afterwards.


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## CB Jones (Feb 23, 2021)

Oni_Kadaki said:


> we don't practice enough for everyone to be comfortable with dynamic, deliberate is preferable.



Yes.  Dynamic entry requires alot more teamwork and everyone being on the same page.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 23, 2021)

As far as i recall the only thing i know of that codified the collapsed posture is CAR.   If some people taught it without codifying or did it before that is another matter. (like Jeff Coopers rules of firearm safety have been taught for a very long time before he named and codified them, actually if recall correctly  all of them were in a 1950's dated U.K military manual, just worded diffrently)
And CAR is meant to be based on the oh **** reaction of a police officer standing at a traffic stop and not meant to be used beyond 7 yards or something i think.

it being derivied from israeli things is news too me, this sort of reminds me of comabtives basically be called and renigated to "krav maga" Defendu miltiarised Krav maga and combatives is pretty similar across the board.  Annoys me how "krav maga" is the go to laymans name for it now not combatives, would annoy me if it was Defendu would annoy me if it was what ever the russians call it.    That will be a long rant for another day for how i hate that naming covnetion.


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## Oni_Kadaki (Feb 23, 2021)

Rat said:


> As far as i recall the only thing i know of that codified the collapsed posture is CAR.   If some people taught it without codifying or did it before that is another matter. (like Jeff Coopers rules of firearm safety have been taught for a very long time before he named and codified them, actually if recall correctly  all of them were in a 1950's dated U.K military manual, just worded diffrently)
> And CAR is meant to be based on the oh **** reaction of a police officer standing at a traffic stop and not meant to be used beyond 7 yards or something i think.
> 
> it being derivied from israeli things is news too me, this sort of reminds me of comabtives basically be called and renigated to "krav maga" Defendu miltiarised Krav maga and combatives is pretty similar across the board.  Annoys me how "krav maga" is the go to laymans name for it now not combatives, would annoy me if it was Defendu would annoy me if it was what ever the russians call it.    That will be a long rant for another day for how i hate that naming covnetion.



Valid points, though please bear in mind that I haven't done my due diligence in this case, and only have a cursory understanding of the origins of the techniques. As such, there is always the possibility I am misrepresenting something, or that one of my sources (internet sources... I have full confidence in both my SWAT NCO and Sunday's instructor) misrepresented something.


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## jks9199 (Feb 23, 2021)

Center Axis Relock/CAR was developed by a British former cop as I recall.  Opinions are mixed... like everything else in this arena.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 24, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> Center Axis Relock/CAR was developed by a British former cop as I recall.  Opinions are mixed... like everything else in this arena.



If i also recall, like many things in this regard several people have claimed to devolope it but obviously one holds the name rights to it.


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## Buka (Feb 24, 2021)

I'm glad I don't train building entry anymore. I've been hit with so many rubber bullets I've lost count. 
And, man, sometimes they really hurt.


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