# Maybe Interesting... maybe not



## Xue Sheng (Nov 12, 2010)

I did something today I had not done before in regards to my rather slow progression to better understand Sil Lum Tao. And to be honest I am not sure if it means anything at all. 

I did Ba Duan Jin (eight pieces of Brocade), then did some Wuji and Zhan Zhuang standing, waited a few minutes and then did Sil Lum Tao.

It did seem to change the power flow (or at least make it easier to follow) of Sil Lum Tao. I shall have to do this a few more times over the weekend.

Also makes me wonder what would happen if I did stationary Chen style Chan Su Jin before Sil Lum Tao


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## cwk (Nov 12, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> I did something today I had not done before in regards to my rather slow progression to better understand Sil Lum Tao. And to be honest I am not sure if it means anything at all.
> 
> I did Ba Duan Jin (eight pieces of Brocade), then did some Wuji and Zhan Zhuang standing, waited a few minutes and then did Sil Lum Tao.
> 
> ...



Hi,Xue
I often do ba duan jin before SLT, when time permits, and now you mention it, it does feel different to when I don't. Haven't really give it much thought before but I'll have another go at it tonight and get back to you with a better answer.


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## Vajramusti (Nov 13, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> I did something today I had not done before in regards to my rather slow progression to better understand Sil Lum Tao. And to be honest I am not sure if it means anything at all.
> 
> I did Ba Duan Jin (eight pieces of Brocade), then did some Wuji and Zhan Zhuang standing, waited a few minutes and then did Sil Lum Tao.
> 
> ...


---------------------------------------------
I don't see what Ba Duan Jin or Chan Su Jin has anything to with doing the Sil Lim Tao IF you are doing a good Sil Lim Tao.
joy chaudhuri


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## cwk (Nov 14, 2010)

Okay, so here's what I noticed.

After doing ba duan jin, I felt more relaxed. This is not to say that I'm usually tense but it was slightly different somehow. I think because, for me anyway, Ba Duan Jin really helps me empty my mind and thus the extra say ?% of tension,that is almost physically undetectable as it is all to do with mental state, was gone. It could have something to do with the fact that my breathing was regulated better after doing BDJ.
anyway, just my tuppence.


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## Vajramusti (Nov 14, 2010)

Understand and appreciate both sets of comments. I can and do different things... but for wing chun for me--- ygkym can be my standing post and breathing platform.Thx for sharing

joy chaudhuri


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 14, 2010)

Vajramusti said:


> ---------------------------------------------
> I don't see what Ba Duan Jin or Chan Su Jin has anything to with doing the Sil Lim Tao IF you are doing a good Sil Lim Tao.
> joy chaudhuri


 
Nor do I. 

I am not saying it has anything to do with it only that I found it interesting

I should also add I doubt I am doing good Sil Lum Tao. I am doing this to better understand Sil Lum Tao so eventually I will be doing good Sil Lum Tao


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 14, 2010)

cwk said:


> Okay, so here's what I noticed.
> 
> After doing ba duan jin, I felt more relaxed. This is not to say that I'm usually tense but it was slightly different somehow. I think because, for me anyway, Ba Duan Jin really helps me empty my mind and thus the extra say ?% of tension,that is almost physically undetectable as it is all to do with mental state, was gone. It could have something to do with the fact that my breathing was regulated better after doing BDJ.
> anyway, just my tuppence.


 
Thank You

I did another form of Qigong before Sil Lum Tao today, it is from my taiji and uses Daoist breathing. It left me very relaxed and very aware of internal powerflows while doing Sil Lum Tao.

I have not yet tried Chan Su Jin before and I don't plan on doing it anytime soon but one of these days I will give it a try.


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## Vajramusti (Nov 15, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Thank You
> 
> I did another form of Qigong before Sil Lum Tao today, it is from my taiji and uses Daoist breathing. It left me very relaxed and very aware of internal powerflows while doing Sil Lum Tao.
> 
> I have not yet tried Chan Su Jin before and I don't plan on doing it anytime soon but one of these days I will give it a try.


------------------------------------------------
Thanks for sharing your experience.
joy chaudhuri


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## KamonGuy2 (Nov 15, 2010)

Qigong does help improve your SNT greatly (one of our senior instructors teaches seminars on this)

I must emphasise that SNT is a balance. You have to be careful to not be too relaxed. Structure must be maintained (rather than floppy hands etc). When you do things like fook sao, try to pictire yourself holding an object very loosely (like a can of coke)

Ive seen a lot of people doing their forms too 'soggy' in an effort to be really relaxed. Every person is different and the whole point of SNT is to find out more about your own body. Being relaxed helps, but dont feel like you have to be so relaxed that you are sacrificing structure 

In wing chun you explore all kinds of different energy, including gung lik which is a harder energy, and sung lik which is a softer energy. Its important to play with both ideas


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## profesormental (Nov 16, 2010)

Interesting.

With your experience, you should have enough information to figure out what movements seem to "flow" better.

That is something I would be interested in knowing.

Here's the thing.

For me, the execution of SLT has changed in very subtle ways to accommodate for very specific and significant increases in power ans stability at the time of application. I even do an "Activated" SLT, which is not in the horse stance (YCKJM).

Thus them details are important.

Thanks for sharing. Internal styles have these little details that when noticed have significant effect on applications.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 17, 2010)

I tried something external.

I went to my basement and worked out, lifted some weights, no isolation exercises specifically things that worked muscle groups. 

Then I did SLT... Not good Things were tight and the flow was poor, no power in any strikes and little relaxation and when I was done I just felt uncomfortable

This morning I did the Qigong of my Taiji (with Daoist breathing) again before doing SLT and it does seem that I am more relaxed, can better feel the flow of power and it simply feels better. However I did begin to notice that the very first punch is more powerful if you approach it like Xingyiquan, which is to stay relaxed until the last second and then (the best description I can give for now) tense briefly and relax again.


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## mograph (Nov 17, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> However I did begin to notice that the very first punch is more powerful if you approach it like Xingyiquan, which is to stay relaxed until the last second and then (the best description I can give for now) tense briefly and relax again.



This makes sense to me. Relaxation makes _acceleration_, connection at the moment of impact makes _mass _and Qigong (in a general sense) keeps everything together and ready to move naturally without hesitation.


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## wtxs (Nov 17, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> I tried something external.
> 
> I went to my basement and worked out, lifted some weights, no isolation exercises specifically things that worked muscle groups.
> 
> ...



Which is how any WC technique should be carried out.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 18, 2010)

Had a thought last night (and this may go a long way in proving my wifes statement that I am Martial Arts Crazy). 

I was thinking about the various forms of qigong and standing training I have done and it hit me that Zhan Zhuang may work really well in combination with something like SLT. 

I have not done anything I would call real training with Zhan Zhuang in a while but I started again this morning (10 minutes) and followed that with SLT. All I can say is my root seemed stronger.

The reason I think Zhan Zhuang will work is that first it is a similar stance and second if you are really training Zhan Zhuang (meaning being able to stand for at least 15 or longer) you begin to notice a whole lot of muscular connections from the bottom of your feet to the top of your head and you start to understand how to get energy/force/power from your root to where it needs to go such as a punch in the case of SLT.

I am still going to work with Ba Duan Jin and the Qigong of my Taiji and SLT but I am also back standing in Zhan Zhuang to see if what I think will happenwill happen.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 19, 2010)

Another note

Last night I did the qigong of my flavor of Yang Taijiquan, did the long form and then SLT. 

I have to tell you I have not felt that much internal energy since my days of training the Shandong province Old style Chen form. And after that I did Xingyiquan Wuxing piquan (which I had not done in a while) and another round of SLT after that.

This morning Ba Duan Jin followed by SLT 

All 3 rounds of SLT felt incredibly smooth, internally speaking, and the use fajin appers to be getting a bit more clear as it applies to SLT

I am just going to work with this for a while now and not post so much about it since there is not really much new to say


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 29, 2010)

In my work with Sil Lum Tao I saw something, not amazing or earth shattering just something I did notice before do to my low level of understanding due to little training in Wing Chun. 

This lead me to this question

In Sil Lum Tao 

Bong Sau to Tan Sau to Dai Jeung am I seeing a block and lock and a strike?


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## zepedawingchun (Nov 29, 2010)

When you say lock, are you talking about a joint lock on the wrist? If you wanted to joint lock you could. But then there would be no dai jern. You could use the motion in any way you see fit. 

The movement you are talking about can be applied most commonly like this . . . . you're partner or opponent is throwing a punch to you (say right hand punch) in which case you will use a left hand bong sau (if you use your right hand for the bong sau, you will be doing what is called a cross arm bong sau or wrong arm bong sau). That will put you on the out side of their punch. Sticking to their arm, you will transition (or pivot) under their arm to perfrom a tan sau (to keep their energy out and forcing their way into your center with their punchng hand). Now you are on the inside of the arm. From the tan sau, you will then immediately perform the dai jern (lifting palm) as a strike. 

While performing the jern, you can pak sau their punching hand with your right hand (from what should have been in a wu sau or guard position) to then prevent their punching hand from pushing it's way into your center. The whole motion is one big transition from bong to tan to strike. It should flow very smoothly from one position to another, not choppy. If you are successful with the jern, then you can follow it up with multiple strikes using both hands (can we say battle punch or chain punching?)


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 29, 2010)

I'm talking arm and I would not call it choppy, this is part of what impressed me about the combination I was seeing

And I have no doubt, as is the case with many CMA styles, there are other options


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## zepedawingchun (Nov 29, 2010)

Your bong sau should make and maintain contact with your partner's (opponent's) wrist.  If your bong sau is at their elbow, it's better to use a tan with the other hand and strike with what would have been the bong sau hand.  It would be hard to joint lock the elbow from a bong.  However, if you wanted to to put a lock on the elbow, you could.  But it makes little sense to do that.  Why waste the energy working up to the elbow or shoulder (creeping that far).  If your at the elbow, you're close enough to strike them in the throat or face.  Better to do that, then put a lock on the elbow or shoulder.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 29, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> Your bong sau should make and maintain contact with your partner's (opponent's) wrist. If your bong sau is at their elbow, it's better to use a tan with the other hand and strike with what would have been the bong sau hand. It would be hard to joint lock the elbow from a bong. However, if you wanted to to put a lock on the elbow, you could. But it makes little sense to do that. Why waste the energy working up to the elbow or shoulder (creeping that far). If your at the elbow, you're close enough to strike them in the throat or face. Better to do that, then put a lock on the elbow or shoulder.


 
What part of my arm would be contacting the opponents wrist in bong sau?


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## zepedawingchun (Nov 29, 2010)

Your wrist should be contacting their wrist.  If you engage your partner half way up your forearm, you should be doing a tan sau or wan lan sau (fence up hand).  This would depend on the kind of energy and direction your partner is giving you when you make contact.  From half way (middle) up the forearm, if the pressure is going towards the elbow, you immediately turn the arm to tan sau.  If the pressure is pushing towards the wrist, then you use a wan lan sau pushing with your elbow towards your partner.  With wan lan sau, you might then lop sau their engaged arm hand with your other hand, then sat sau (pronounced saht or saut) with the wan lan sau hand.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 29, 2010)

OK then, I am not seeing am elbow lock, but a wrist lock it not all that hard from there. But then there is no strike like I was seeing. Basically I was looking at the application of Bong Sau incorrectly

I also just looked at a picture of Ip Chun in Bong Sau and I realized that I am lifting my shoulder to high which changes things too. 

My time in Wing Chun training with a sifu was short (3, or was it 4, different occasions 2 different Sifus but never past Sil Lum Tao) however, based on what I have been finding out since I started this post I am thinking about the possibility of going back to train with one of them in 2011.

Thanks


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## mook jong man (Nov 29, 2010)

Like Zepedawingchun said you should be aiming to get wrist to wrist contact , that is where you will have the most leverage.

Generally speaking if you control their wrist , you control their whole arm.

In regards to the joint locking there is a plethora of joint locking applications in the SLT form if you look hard enough.

But most of these arm and wrist locks are used in response to ourselves being grabbed , we don't really go looking to initiate a joint lock.

Besides the fact that while you are trying to apply the lock you will be probably eating punches in the face from his other hand and getting your shins smashed in with low kicks.

Tactically speaking you want to keep your arms  unencumbered for striking , but if you were to try and initiate joint locks , and I do it in chi sau sometimes just for fun .

You want to quickly capture the arm or wrist and get straight to the side of him where you aren't facing all those weapons.


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## zepedawingchun (Nov 29, 2010)

Mook jong man, you always hit the nail on the head with each point.  Especially the response *'Besides the fact that while you are trying to apply the lock you will be probably eating punches in the face from his other hand and getting your shins smashed in with low kicks.'*

It is so true.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 30, 2010)

That would depend on who is applying the lock and why.

If it was me...yup, likely I'm getting pummeled

If it was my Taiji sifu was the one applying the lock...no. But then there are relatively few that are at that level when it comes to Qinna. I have never felt a lock coming with him and I do with everyone else. I can't always stop it when I feel someone going for a lock and sometimes I can. However with my Taiji sifu, since I never feel it coming and BANG I'm locked I can never stop it. When I asked him how he does that his answer was, "you lock yourself"


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## cwk (Nov 30, 2010)

for me the easiest lock transition from bong sao is simply to lap with your wu sao give a short sharp tug on his arm and a simultaneous heel kick to the knee for distraction and roll your elbow over in to an arm bar/ elbow lock.
It's not the best lock in the world as there are a lot of counters to it but if it's done quickly and smoothly it works well as a quick transitional move and helps to get control of their balance.
I sometimes like to distract them first by hitting their groin straight of the bong with a quick, snappy chey an jeung as soon as I lap sao and then roll in to the elbow lock. As soon as the lock is applied and I feel they're structure coming apart, I transition to something else. The lock is only on for a second.


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## Domino (Dec 1, 2010)

Not sure what you want to learn about SLT but from bong sau in chi sau i like to lap from under the bong sau and strike.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 1, 2010)

Domino said:


> Not sure what you want to learn about SLT but from bong sau in chi sau i like to lap from under the bong sau and strike.


 
Actaully not applications, jsut see my first post and you will know what the thread is about. I just felt this was the best place to ask the question since it was part of what I was feeling and or thinking


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## Vajramusti (Dec 1, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> In my work with Sil Lum Tao I saw something, not amazing or earth shattering just something I did notice before do to my low level of understanding due to little training in Wing Chun.
> 
> This lead me to this question
> 
> ...


--------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Xu Sheng:
Sil "Lim"Tau. I will focus only some narrow points because understandadbly different posters are referring to different things.Not having seen it or without knowing whose version you are doing...I don't know where you see bong to tan to dai jeong. My daijeung is in the 3rd section-gan-tan-huen and then dai jeong.
Depending on length of wing chun training-lots of movements can result in strike, lock, block or break. Bong to tan or tan to bong can lead to a striking motion, a locking motion, a blocking motion or a breaking motion depending on what else is happening.
joy chaudhuri
www.tempewingchun.com


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 1, 2010)

Vajramusti said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Xu Sheng:
> Sil "Lim"Tau. I will focus only some narrow points because understandadbly different posters are referring to different things.Not having seen it or without knowing whose version you are doing...I don't know where you see bong to tan to dai jeong. My daijeung is in the 3rd section-gan-tan-huen and then dai jeong.
> Depending on length of wing chun training-lots of movements can result in strike, lock, block or break. Bong to tan or tan to bong can lead to a striking motion, a locking motion, a blocking motion or a breaking motion depending on what else is happening.
> ...


 
My lineage, that is if can actually claim one, would come from Ip Ching, there is another I was in for abuot 3 classes so I tend not to count that one, but I am seeing this in the Ip Chun Video of Sil Lum Tao in the third section&#8230; I think. But I also may be using the wrong words, I will have to check


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 6, 2010)

Last night was odd

Last night I tried something a little different

Ma Bu, Zhan Zhuang, Qigong of my taijiquan, taijiquan long form, Taiji Dao short form, Taiji Jian form, Sil Lum Tao and I ended up feeling like I was having an anxiety attack without the need to run. I was just jumping inside, uncomfortably so, to the point where I could not train any longer. And the Sil Lum Tao was stiff and had no power at all.

I stopped walked around a bit, took a break and later went back and did Sil Lum tao and all went well and today all is fine too. However I have not done Zhan Zhuang or the qigong of my taijiquan since last night.


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## mograph (Dec 6, 2010)

Hm. Maybe next time, you could watch for that as you train. 

I don't think that the feeling of anxiety  comes up all of a sudden, but that it comes gradually. It might have seemed sudden because you were focused on your training. If you were aware of the increasing energy as you trained, maybe you could watch its progress and either grow accustomed to it, use it, or slow down sooner.

Just a thought ...


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 6, 2010)

mograph said:


> Hm. Maybe next time, you could watch for that as you train.
> 
> I don't think that the feeling of anxiety comes up all of a sudden, but that it comes gradually. It might have seemed sudden because you were focused on your training. If you were aware of the increasing energy as you trained, maybe you could watch its progress and either grow accustomed to it, use it, or slow down sooner.
> 
> Just a thought ...


 
Could be, I shall pay closer attention next time


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 17, 2011)

Finally got back to a point with stationary cháns&#299;g&#333;ng where I thought I might try working on Sil Lim Tao afterwards. 

Did a related warm-up, cháns&#299;g&#333;ng, a bit of associated standing Qigong followed by Wuji and Zhan Zhuang and thensil lum tao.

It was interesting and it did feel as if I was more relaxed and that there was more power in my strikes in the form.



However I cant type, I have had to correct this several times to finish it


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