# Escalator or Gunting- Sat 1/08 1pm EST



## Andrew Evans (Jan 8, 2005)

It all started with the October 2004 issue of Inside Kung-Fu where Bram Frank wrote a letter entitled, "Where was the Drone?"

In the February 2005 issue, Marc Davis implies that Frank is a serial exagerrator. (Did Frank go as far as saying he invented the Internet? Almost! :rofl: ) 

Anyway, I just found out that Kelly Worden's radio show will be discussing this topic with the legendary Bob Taylor of Roundeye Tool and Knife. So check out http://www.kellyworden.com at 10am PST (West Coast time) or 1pm EST (East Coast time).

Obviously, I won't be listening to the Farm Report at noon today (Kansas time)...

Andrew from the Land of Oz


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## Andrew Evans (Jan 8, 2005)

Below is the posting from Kelly Worden's forum. BTW, there was no reference to Frank inventing the Internet. I exaggerated!!!
However, stay tuned for some great knife talk... -Andrew

HOBBIT FROM HELL !!! 
THE SMOKE MAY NEVER REALLY CLEAR FROM THE AIRWAVES !!! 

SATURDAY MORNING 10:00 A.M. PACIFIC TIME ALL HELL IS ROLLING OUT OF THE MOUNTAINS OF IDAHO,,, THAT'S RIGHT THE LEGENDARY BOB TAYLOR OF ROUNDEYE TOOL AND KNIFE IS "ON THE EDGE." 

LISTEN TO THE SHOW WORLDWIDE AT WWW.KELLYWORDEN.COM 

I WAS CONTACTED RECENTLY DIRECTLY BY BOB TAYLOR AND WAS SHOCKED AT ALL THE MAYHEM AND COVERT ISSUES INVOLVING THIS QUESTIONABLE KNIFE DESIGN AND THE STRANGE EFFORTS TO CONCEAL THE TRUE STORY OF IT'S DEVELOPMENT... 

WHAT WILL YOU HEAR? 

AN AGGRESSIVE DISCUSSION ON THE ESCALATOR KNIFE, NOW KNOWN AS THE GUNTING KNIFE, WHAT HAPPENED IN THE ORIGINAL DESIGN PROCESS?, WHO REALLY PUT THE BLADE INTO PRODUCTION? 

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE ROLLER LOCK AGGREEMENT WITH SPYDERCO AND WHY? 

WHAT ELSE WILL BE REVEALED? LISTEN AND FIND OUT!! 

WILL BOB TAYLOR BE ATTENDING THE ANNUAL LAS VEGAS SHOT SHOW THIS JANUARY 28TH, IF SO WHAT BRINGS HIM OUT OF HIS RECLUSIVE SOLITUDE? 

MAN, THIS IS A SHAKER ,,, 
DATU
_________________
Kelly S. Worden


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## Andrew Evans (Jan 8, 2005)

Great show!

Bob Taylor just challenged a certain person to a caged fight. And he offered to put up $10,000!!

Lots of issues discussed makes me want to do some research. Does anyone know the patent number of the Gunting knife? It might say it on the handle or blade.

Thanks!


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## Cruentus (Jan 8, 2005)

I will have to be sure that I log onto this show and listen. Thanks Andrew.

Also, btw, if there is anything of interest in the future regarding knife stuff from NSI, please let us know about it!

Thanks again,

Paul


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## Andrew Evans (Jan 11, 2005)

Paul,
I regularly check to see what upcoming shows will feature and will definitely inform the rest of us in the future. This particular show interested me because I got my issue of Inside Kung-Fu right before the show and couldn't help making the connection. Marc Davis's letter even made me go back to look at the older issues. Too bad, his letter wasn't mentioned on the show. 

To everyone else,
DISCLAIMER 
I have nothing against Mr. Bram Frank as I have never met him. I have shared and am continuing to share my opinion even though I have never seen what he has in the way of his skills and material. The only copy I have of him is a performance at the World Head of Family Sokeship Council where he accidentally cut his partner. 

While I admire Mr. Frank's courage and insistence in letting the camera continue to tape the event in an effort to show others the dangers of a real knife, I question his slow learning curve. 

Whereas, I pale in comparison to the vast amount of training that Mr. Frank has, I realized early during my knife training how dangerous a live blade can be. In a past seminar I hosted, an instructor used me to demonstrate a painful technique and my reflex action was to go for my live blade and stab him. Thankfully, I stopped myself just in time. That being said, it does not take a genius to realize one should remove live blades when hitting the training floor. 

Now back to the content of the show. Why hasn't Bram Frank answered the allegations? Whether they are true or not, I am left asking what kind of balls does this "Master Instructor" have? 

It's not just a matter of asking him if the accusations are true. My question is does this guy has enough cahones to be "one of the Top 11 knife combative instructors" in the world? 

Feel free to post more info or contact me in private if you feel I am off base or want to share more information. 

Respectfully, 
Andrew


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## Cruentus (Jan 11, 2005)

> "one of the Top 11 knife combative instructors" in the world?



Who deemed Bram one of the top 11??


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## OULobo (Jan 12, 2005)

I believe he was listed this past year in Tactical Knives the mag, when they did an article naming the "top 11". There is a posting on the forum about the article.


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## OULobo (Jan 12, 2005)

Here is the thread about the article.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9646&highlight=top+knife


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## Cruentus (Jan 12, 2005)

Ah...thats right. I remember now. That was last year, before the much of Brams recent exposure.

Paul


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## Dan Anderson (Jan 13, 2005)

Andrew Evans said:
			
		

> Now back to the content of the show. Why hasn't Bram Frank answered the allegations? Whether they are true or not, I am left asking what kind of balls does this "Master Instructor" have?
> 
> It's not just a matter of asking him if the accusations are true. My question is does this guy has enough cahones to be "one of the Top 11 knife combative instructors" in the world?
> 
> ...



Andrew et al,

If you have seen the savaging I have taken in Kelly's forum from time to time for having a viewpoint different than his, figure that the enmity Kelly has for Bram is, at the very least, quadruple of his enmity for me.

So, answer me this - Would he get a fair Q&A period on the radio show?  To honestly answer this relisten to the radio programs where he has been referred to (although thinly veiled and never by name).  Listen to not only the "facts" but to the commentary and side comments accompanying them.  Fair and honest, unbiased, or as Fox News slogan says, "We report - you decide."?  I don't think so.

You don't know him, have never trained with him, have never talked to him, yet you present this thread in a very biased manner.  Are you off base?  For being curious, no.  For presenting your curiousity in this way, yes.  Your disclaimer after X many posts comes a bit late.  A particular viewpoint has been presented in an already biased light.

Yours,
Dan Anderson 

PS - To all - Andrew and I are friends and have already talked about this phone and we are cool so this isn't a forum blast at him.


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## Emptyglass (Jan 13, 2005)

Mr Evans:

I've found Mr. Frank to be an effective teacher with a solid, sensible, and professional cirriculum in Filipino based blade work (as far as my limited knowledge on the subject goes) with attention given toward the ramifications of using an edged instrument on another person in a self-defense situation and alternative options to doing so. I have found Mr. Worden's radio broadcasts to be biased towards one viewpoint or another in the past with regards to Mr. Frank, the Gunting, and other related subjects.

I say meet the man, give yourself a chance to learn something from him if he has something to teach that interests you, and then make up your mind.

Rich Curren


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## Cruentus (Jan 14, 2005)

Sorry Dan and Rich C.;

I don't think Andrew is being "off-base" at all. Under the circumstances, he has been very nice about the whole thing.

This has gone far beyond a personal feud between Mr. Worden and Mr. Frank. "On the Edge" has had a number of prominent people from the tactical knives community corroborating information, with documentation, that puts Mr. Franks background and behavior in question.

Now, I am not going to argue these points or personal opinions here, nor will I provide mine on the matter here; my advice is that if one is curious about what has been circulating about Brams background, I say download the past shows of "On the Edge" that discuss these issues, and take a listen. And, to be fair, if one is still curious and feels the need to hear things from Mr. Franks view, perhaps post on Bram Franks Forum or e-mail Mr. Frank himself and inquire. Then one can get a few sides of the story, and one can make an educated judgement for oneself about the circumstance.

However, given the wealth of information that "On the Edge" has provided on the subject - info that has been documented and corroborated by some respected members of the tactical knife community - one cannot fault Mr. Evans, or anyone for that matter, for thinking that Brams background is at best questionable.

Paul


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## DoxN4cer (Jan 14, 2005)

Off base or out of line, Paul?

I've seen Andrew Evans posting similar (nearly identical) posts on Blade Forums as well as WMAC.  It appears that he is attempting to spread someone else's poison on this and other forums, which if I understand things correctly, is against the rules of acceptable conduct that have been established for this forum.  While something like this should be reported to a moderator, the moderator for this knife arts forum is entertaining and thereby perpetuating the issue.  Your bias is showing from beneath your cloak. 

Concerning Bob Taylor... check out www.phonyveterans.com and make an educated guess as to his credibility. 

I don't know what Mr. Evans is trying to accomplish with his related posts, but it would appear that his sole motivation is sucking up to Kelly Worden.  If his purpose truly was to gather more information and formulate his own opinion, he could have gone directly to Bram Frank to get it rather than recap the radio show and spew forth rhetorical questions in an apparent attempt at further character assassination.  

I found the interview(s) in question to be very one-sided to say the least, and the likelihood of Bram Frank getting a fair shake at presenting his side of the story for listeners of that radio show to hear are slim to none.  That should be clear to anyone that listened to the archived shows.  Dead issue.

Ultimately, it all comes down to A feud between Kelly Worden and Bram Frank, and a feud between Kelly Worden and Dan Anderson.  Bottom line.  Let 'em duke it out on their own.  No commments from the pin-head gallery are needed.  There are enough of them bumping their gums together already. 

You authored an article on keeping personal differences off of the internet, yet you've decded to involve youself in someone elses feud that was already there.  Rather than becoming involved in the disputes of others, you should practice what you preach.  My advice to you and Mr. Evans is a quote from Kelly Worden's article in Black Belt from September 2004: "if you choose to be a leader, do not become anyone's boy."  

r/

Tim Kashino


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## Emptyglass (Jan 14, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Sorry Dan and Rich C.;
> 
> I don't think Andrew is being "off-base" at all. Under the circumstances, he has been very nice about the whole thing.
> 
> ...




Paul:

I never said he was off-base. Just that he should make a judgement of Mr. Frank from his own experience rather than someone else's say so, regardless of their stature in the FMA community.

I have to agree with Tim Kashino, you are being a bit biased on this subject. On reading your posts on Mr. Worden's forum, I  can understand this. As a moderator, you might want to remain a bit more neutral.

The opinions expressed in Mr. Worden's program are his opinions. I haven't seen any of this documented evidence, but I have seen this:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=Frank-$.INZZ.&s2=knife.ABST.&OS=IN/Frank-$+AND+ABST/knife&RS=IN/Frank-$+AND+ABST/knife

Simply said, my personal experience with Mr. Frank has not swayed me to agree with Mr. Worden's opinion.

Rich Curren


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## loki09789 (Jan 14, 2005)

Emptyglass said:
			
		

> Paul:
> 
> I never said he was off-base. Just that he should make a judgement of Mr. Frank from his own experience rather than someone else's say so, regardless of their stature in the FMA community.
> 
> ...


Agreed Rich.

I would go further to say that his personal craft knowledge of knives and knife making is pretty extensive.  I have never seen/read Bram go after the character/reputation of another FMA (and specifically a brother student of Gm RP).  Conversely, I have seen Mr. Worden take on and attempt to cripple quite a few folks using his self generated forum and self produced radio show....  He has an agenda and is promoting it.  Is that wrong?  Well, I would say it is effective marketing.

As far as I have read from RP's books, discussions with some of his direct students and their students, the most important lesson about FMA/MA that RP wanted people to learn was how to 'make it your own' NOT 'cut others down to make your own look better.'

I would say that Bram has taken that lesson to heart and is trying to live it instead of just give it lip service.  Mr. Worden is also living it with his own brand of MA and the variations to it that he has made...

I think that you have the right idea, Rich.  Give them both 'equal time' and make your own decisions.


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## Andrew Evans (Jan 14, 2005)

Mr. Kashino,

Yes, I am a fan of Kelly Worden but I am not his nutrider. Heck, I even own most of Dan Andersons books and I publicly stated that I enjoy them. I ALSO DID THIS ON KELLYS FORUM. Did that get me taken off peoples Xmas card list? I dont know or care. 

You accused me of being a puppet. That's far from the truth but I'm a big fan of the Top 11 Knife Combatives list/article published in November 2003 issue of Tactical Knives. I have had the honor and privilege of meeting a few of them or their top students. I often give my opinions with candor regarding what I think. You see, that's the good thing about being in Kansas. I'm fairly secluded and don't have to deal with these guys on a regular basis. 

That being said, I would love for these guys to come out here. Yes I checked my calendar and the websites of Mr. Worden and Mr. Frank. So let's bring it on! I propose a 2-day seminar on March 12-13 where both men take turns teaching. Worden does a couple of hours and then Frank does a couple of hours or vice versa.

As for other forums, I stated my sources in my first posts of this thread plus as an aspiring scholar of the knife arts, I want to be exposed to various viewpoints. I appreciate them including yours. After all, nobody has a monopoly on the truth. This includes Bram Frank and Kelly Worden. I just thought that some of us want to hear what Mr. Frank has to say.


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## Andrew Evans (Jan 14, 2005)

Dan,

As you know, I'm an avid reader of the World Modern Arnis Coalition forum. From my experience, the only two people Kelly Worden has slammed around in his forum were you and Bram Frank. I have praised other martial artists that Mr. Worden is not affiliated with on his forum including yourself. I've praised other Top 11 Knife Combative instructors including W. Hock Hochheim and David James that Mr. Worden is not affiliated with and/or probably have never met (Gasp! Don't tell anyone these guys might be competitors). Did I get slammed for this? No!

Obviously, you and Mr. Worden have a long history. However, I admire your cajones (I misspelled it with cahones earlier). You spoke your mind not only here but also in Mr. Worden's forum. 

As for the radio show being biased, I notice that Mr. Worden tends to provide his interviewees with softballs. I don't recall him being rude to them. If so, please point out the show. (In other words, he's no Bill O'Reilly.)

Thanks,
Andrew


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## Cruentus (Jan 14, 2005)

Mr. Kashino,

I take your attack on my abilities to moderate this issue as a personal attack and snipe. Not to mention, I have been nothing but completely fair on this issue so far. Hell, I havent even offered my opinion on the subject, which is beyond fair considering the circumstance. Personal attacks will get you nowhere good and fast, as far as I am concerned.  

Everyone else,

Regarding the issue at hand, this is not some bizarre case of one mans vendetta against another, or Worden against Bram in this case. This is not some petty argument or feud carried over from another forum either.  Blame Mr. Worden for whatever you see fit, but know that Kelly did not force the at least 6 people who have all corroborated Brams unethical and fraudulent behavior to come on his show and say so. Some, if not many, of whom are well respected in the knife community, and have no financial interests in expressing their opinions implying unethical behavior from Bram Frank. All separate sources who have no business ties to Worden or conflicts of interests regarding the issue. Worden didn't twist Inside Kung Fu Magizines arm into publishing the editorial that hammered Mr. Franks credibility regarding a claim of Bram's from a previous issue. Worden didn't write or fabricate the articles or sources that were used to support claims that Bram has exhibited unethical and fraudulent behavior.

This is not just some petty Internet feud. This is an issue that is documented and goes fairly deep for all sides. So, Ill be damned if any of you expect me, or anyone else, to censor someone from discussing this issue, just because some of the aspects of the discussion might not fit your view. Ill also be damned if I am going to let anyone on any side of the issue bully someone into agreeing with them, or into not discussing the topic. At least, not without me saying something about it. 

So, if anyone wants to discuss the evidence in a logical manner, I say have at it. Everyone has equal playing ground and a fair shake here. But bullying, obfuscating the argument, or personally attacking people who dont agree with you will get you nowhere good and fast, as far as I am concerned.

Paul Janulis


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## Tgace (Jan 14, 2005)

OK insted of dancing around the issue, what is this unethical behavior? I for one am not familiar with the issue and as its already "out there" and central to this disagreement....if nobody has the **** to say it outright, some links would be appreciated.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 14, 2005)

Lets remember that Martialtalk is a friendly place to disscuss ideas, techniques, thoughts, etc.   It is not a place to attack individuals or orgaanisations.

The tapes (raido) mentioned are there for those who wish to listen to them.
HAs the person being refered to been given a chance to reply and would that interview be unbiassed ?  

JUst where is this thread heading. Are we disscussing the raido shows or the people involved and there little (or big) fueds?


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## Dan Anderson (Jan 14, 2005)

Paul,

I agree with Tgace.  What exactly is the unethical behaviour?  Exact time, place, form, event?  Outside of Kelly's allegations, I'd love to actually see, in print, what they are (without the usual "do your own research" yap Kelly would provide).  And the source references they come from.  Good research project for you, Paul (yeah - like you have that kind of free time   ).

Andrew,

Hmmm.  Good point about the O'Reilly.  Kelly has been incredibly slanted in his blastings about Bram on his radio program.  Yes, Bram wasn't there so he wasn't interrupted so I'll need to come up with a better example.  Hey, Rush Limbaugh comes to mind.  Has _he _ interviewed anyone lately?  If so, I'll look for another example.  Actually Bram HAS been on his show in the past, when Kelly professed him as a friend, and if I can ever get a copy of that program, I may be back.  

As usual this is turning into a food fight.  Pretty volitile subject, I'd say.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - You all should drop this, go over to the Modern Arnis forum and buy my new book.  :asian:


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## Tgace (Jan 14, 2005)

IMO this thread appears designed to bring an issue from other forums into this one. The mentioned radio show apparently had this feud as a central issue. I dont know if you can discuss any of these points without the other. Lay the cards out on the table or lock it down.


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## Cruentus (Jan 14, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> OK insted of dancing around the issue, what is this unethical behavior? I for one am not familiar with the issue and as its already "out there" and central to this disagreement....if nobody has the **** to say it outright, some links would be appreciated.



To answer you Tom, I'll repeat what I said earlier...



> Now, I am not going to argue these points or personal opinions here, nor will I provide mine on the matter here; my advice is that if one is curious about what has been circulating about Brams background, I say download the past shows of "On the Edge" that discuss these issues, and take a listen. And, to be fair, if one is still curious and feels the need to hear things from Mr. Franks view, perhaps post on Bram Franks Forum or e-mail Mr. Frank himself and inquire. Then one can get a few sides of the story, and one can make an educated judgement for oneself about the circumstance.



Some "On the Edge" shows to download would be recent shows with Mike Janich, James Keating, Bob Taylor (this last one), or Jot Singh. There are more shows, but I can't think of them offhand. In these shows, documentation to written sources is provided. If one has a question regarding the evidence from Bram's side, I suggest posting a question on his forum.

Sorry to be so vague. It has nothing to do with having "nutz" or not; it has everything to do with me not wanting to indulge in an arguement over the details of the issue. So, all I am willing to do is suggest the sources.

Paul


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## Cruentus (Jan 14, 2005)

Sorry, you asked for links.

Kelly Wordens site has all his past radio shows downloadable: 

www.kellyworden.com

Bram Frank has his forum linked to his site here:

http://www.cssdsc.com/

Hope that helps,

Paul


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## Tgace (Jan 14, 2005)

thanks...im always looking for a good food fight.


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## Cruentus (Jan 14, 2005)

Another link to Spyderco's site, so one can view the knife in question (Go about half way down the page:

http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/list.php?genre=knife&offset=21&per_page=10


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## Tgace (Jan 14, 2005)

Still....this thread is like tap-dancing around the elephant in the room. Where can it possibly go??


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## Cruentus (Jan 14, 2005)

> What exactly is the unethical behaviour? Exact time, place, form, event? Outside of Kelly's allegations, I'd love to actually see, in print, what they are (without the usual "do your own research" yap Kelly would provide). And the source references they come from. Good research project for you, Paul (yeah - like you have that kind of free time  ).



I am not even sure why I am responding to this one, but Dan, come friggin' on here. You've gotta know what the allegations are, they are about as plain as the English language on his show. They are not just Kelly's allegations either; there are comments made from a number of other respected members of the knife community, and within these comments are references to documentation regarding the issue. I have seen some, but not all of the actual documentation. I will not discuss this information on any forum. 

If you or anyone wants to discuss the individual pieces of evidence then that is absolutely fine with me. Go ahead and discuss in a logical fashion while obeying the rules. I am not going to get involved in the discussion. But, I will not let anyone pretend that the evidence doesn't exist when that is simply not true, and it is listed plain as English on various shows

Final thought on this Dan: I am saying this as a friend. *THINK * about what your saying here. If you respect Bram as a friend, the last thing you want to do is ask or challenge me to dig up evidence and present them for a debate. As many of the posters here have seen and experienced, I am not well in the head. Once I get started on something, especially if it involves debating, I won't stop until the issue has been killed several times. For your own sakes and for Brams sake, I would rather not be in the business of digging up documented sources against the man or arguing over the details of this issue. Especially if this is something I truely do not want to do.

Paul


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## Bester (Jan 14, 2005)

Wow.  You guys really think it matters.  Then again, at least you're not as anal as this analmouse drip over on the "Childrens Network" http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?p=537099



			
				Blue Collar Baby said:
			
		

> Hold on to your hats for what follows guys Im going to raise a few eyebrows now.
> 
> Kelly Worden is an apparently respected exponent of the Filipino Martial Arts who maintains long term strong relationships with other big name martial artists, and runs a prolific program in the Pacific Northwest. It is not his skills of his years of experience that is the issue here. The issue here is that he claims to have been the driving force behind the modern edged weapon renaissance when men like Leo Gaje and Dan Inosanto brought the Filipino blade to the forefront many years before. Kelly jumps up and down on his platform that he is the first and foremost knife authority, and everybody else besides Jim Keating is riding his coattails and copying his material. My question is: Whose material did he copy with his Renegade JKD, Connecting the Systems and Art with in Your Art approach? Hmmm
> 
> ...



It gets interesting from there.  The arts are full of self-inflated egos.  I heard a tale about Frank slicing up a few of his students on at least 1 occation because of using a live blade rather than a trainer.  Big deal.  **** happens.  I'd say "Shut up and train", and let the children play in their little private pens with their little suck-up groopies, and let the rest of us get back to the bigger scope of things.  I did some reading here and elsewhere and the great majority of those involved have enough 'grey' to make them all pretty much 'iffy', including many in this thread here.  

Eh, Bah.  Back to dealing with sheep diddlers in the study.


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## Cruentus (Jan 14, 2005)

Well Bester,

I wouldn't consider "Bullshido" a reliable source for anything, nor am I sure your point in posting that.

It does, however, provide a good example of what "internet accusations with no basis" looks like. If one wants to observe what unfounded accusations and lame internet insults and flamewars look like, Bullshido is the place to go. That, ladies and gents, is not what we are facing here regarding Mr. Frank.

Paul


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## Dan Anderson (Jan 14, 2005)

Hi Paul,

PM time.

Dan


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## Bester (Jan 15, 2005)

Uh, I had a followup here.  It poofed. Oh well. 
 Too many sokes and grandmasters and their fan clubs for my taste.


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## Seig (Jan 15, 2005)

Sometime back, I posted a warning in the FMA section about continued pissing matches. I am now extending that warning to cover the entire board. This thread is locked.


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