# Bujinkan + ?



## mrhnau (Oct 10, 2005)

I recently joined the Bujinkan, and had a few questions regarding cross-training. The teacher does not mind students cross training (with some limitations), and even recommends it as you progress. He took TKD in the past, and one of the current students (only three regulars, including myself) takes shotokan karate.

My question is as follows. If you do cross train, what styles have you seen as beneficial for your studies? Do you see it as a compliment?

Which do you think is more beneficial? An internal or external? I'm contemplating studying Tai-Chi and Bagua after a while, and was curious if anyone else has taken this approach with Bujinkan being their first art. How were your experiences?

At what point (kyu) should I consider adding a different style?

thanks!

MrH


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 10, 2005)

First you have to ask yourself why you feel the need to cross-train. If it's because you feel something is lacking from your regular training, chances are the people you're training with haven't studied what's already available within the Bujinkan enough and/or correctly.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 10, 2005)

The opinions of the JE's that you will recieve from this question aside, MY opinion is that crosstraining can be good, even if its only a few weeks here and there in several arts to see how they "work" mechanically... or to give you an idea of what others do.

I have made several visits to different schools, just to observe how things are done... I havn't had a strong desire to train in anything else... but to see how others train, yes.  I have often brought ideas and questions to class based on what I had seen other arts doing... 

The JE's think its fine to isolate yourself within the Bujinakan, and maybe it is, if you are at the level many of them are at, or training directly with Soke and the other Shihan...

But thats not 90% of us.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 10, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> First you have to ask yourself why you feel the need to cross-train. If it's because you feel something is lacking from your regular training, chances are the people you're training with haven't studied what's already available within the Bujinkan enough and/or correctly.


 I am in agreement with Nimravus, here. 

 Also, it is my personal opinion that cross training isn't necessary. There is certainly more to learn in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu than I can in a lifetime, so it is my opinion that the time I would use training in another MA, is time I am wasting, if I truely want to learn BBT.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 10, 2005)

I'm sorry. I forgot that I'm extremely spoiled as far as Bujinkan training is concerned. I have seven different dojos within reasonable distance to choose from and have trained in all but one of them several times. The teaching methodologies and training emphasis of each is also very often quite different from the others. Since there is only one person who holds what is closest to the "truth" about Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (whom also happens to be a very poor teacher:uhyeah: ), I feel it is absolutely necessary to study all of the available interpretations by experiencing the Taijutsu of many different shidoshi.

(Note: more often than not, I get more out of training with people who aren't too fond of replicating stuff they've recently picked up in Japan. However, this might not have been the case hadn't it been for many "JE's" teaching method of simply demonstrating what they THINK they've seen in Japan without any given personal reflections, much less explanations.)


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## Cryozombie (Oct 10, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I'm sorry. I forgot that I'm extremely spoiled as far as Bujinkan training is concerned. I have seven different dojos within reasonable distance to choose from and have trained in all but one of them several times.


Theres somthing to be said for that as well... the more instructors you can experience, the better your training will be... I agree with THAT wholeheartedly.


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## Don Roley (Oct 10, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> The JE's think its fine to isolate yourself within the Bujinakan, and maybe it is, if you are at the level many of them are at, or training directly with Soke and the other Shihan...
> 
> But thats not 90% of us.



Actually, most of the Japan Elitists I know cross train as well.

The problem I have with it in this situation is that MrH has just started Bujinkan. I don't think you should cross train in another art until you have a very firm foundation in Bujinkan. It is too easy to start looking at things through another art's eyes and come up with something that really is neither Bujinkan or the new art.

In my case, I like Tai Chi as a complement to the Bujinkan. If you can get a good teacher that is. The movements I have seen really don't clash with the principles of Bujinkan and you can practice the form on your own. People also don't look on you like a wanna-be assasin if they find you practicing and ask what you are doing.

But I would put off cross training for a few _years_ to make sure you know what you are doing. Of course, there are instructors now that claim to be doing taijutsu that look more like some other art in my opnion so maybe getting a firm base like that is more difficult than I thought.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 10, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Actually, most of the Japan Elitists I know cross train as well.


 My Aplogies then...

 It seems to me that whenever the question of "What can I study in addition to the bujinkan to supplement its teachings" the JE's jump in with "NOTHING! The bujinkan has it all!"  and while I dont neccessarily DISAGREE that it probably does, I dont think seeing what others do hurts either.

 But, again, what do I know... im not even close to 1st dan yet.


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## Kizaru (Oct 10, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Actually, most of the Japan Elitists I know cross train as well...


I live in Japan and I cross-train, but am I a Japan Elitist? Dunno....

Anyway, I'd say wait on cross training until you've learned everything in the Ten Chi Jin ryaku no Maki, and consider yourself generally proficient at it. 

As far as cross training I've done in the past, I've had the best experiences with "hands on" _teaching_ styles, rather than those who just teach solo drills. I've had the most fun with Bagua, Hsing Yi, Filipino MA's, jujutsu and kenjutsu schools. 

When I cross train, I try and do what the teacher is showing without letting too much of my own bias float in. I don't judge, give my opinion or compare; just do it. I'm there to be a student, not a show off.

Gassho.


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## Don Roley (Oct 11, 2005)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> When I cross train, I try and do what the teacher is showing without letting too much of my own bias float in. I don't judge, give my opinion or compare; just do it. I'm there to be a student, not a show off.



I try to do the same. There are enough jerks in the martial arts that show up to other styles to try to show them up that not voluntering any previous experience makes the teachers less defensive.

The worst thing to do is to say, "well in XXX we do it differently." That may be a good move over beers with martial arts friends from other styles, but not in a class that is teaching something other than XXX.


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## Fallen Ninja (Oct 11, 2005)

I feel that when you cross train you distort your taijutsu to make it a mutated form of something that taijutsu was never ment to be. There are so many little things that other sport styles have that will mess you up or give you bad habits. Like use of strength. I think if you understand that BBT has 9 schools that it derives from, and when you understand that they all are unique in their own way, you will see that there is no need to cross train.

I had this guy we were going over saka/gyaku nagare and he tried to hit me with a front snap kick from Kenpo. Completly messed up the kata and had no effect on my kamae. I also think that when you cross train you insult the fullness of our art.

FN


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## Kizaru (Oct 14, 2005)

Fallen Ninja said:
			
		

> I I think if you understand that BBT has 9 schools that it derives from, and when you understand that they all are unique in their own way, you will see that there is no need to cross train....


So what do you do when you understand that they are all connected and/or related in some way? What about relations and o influences with other arts indegenous to Japan? Is studying Noh theatre under your umbrella of negative cross training? Noh theatre has a very specific kind of movement and rhythm to it; it also happens to have some direct connections to Budo/Bushido etc....



			
				Fallen Ninja said:
			
		

> I also think that when you cross train you insult the fullness of our art.


I think when people make uninformed, broad, stereotypical statements, they insult the "fullness" of our art.


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## Don Roley (Oct 15, 2005)

I find myself between Fallen Ninja and Kizaru on this point. As I said before, I do not think that cross training early on is a good idea. Too many people seem to think that because boxing has good punches and Kali has good knife work you can take the skills from there and add it into what you do in the Bujinkan dojo. To my eyes, it looks like Frankenstien's monster in the way it is peiced together. Each part may be good, but they were not meant to work together and there are clashes.

On the other hand, I recently talked about how in the Bujinkan we do not have things that you can find in things like Russian Martial Arts such as Systema. The way they can absorb punches may indeed be a good addition to the modern artist. In the old days, the prevelent idea was that everyone had a bladed weapon and I doubt the idea of taking a blow was a top priority.

On the gripping hand (kudos for the first person to identify that reference) it may be that trying too early to work on taking a blow may detract from the Bujinkan's emphisis of avoiding a blow.

Hence, like Kizaru I would say that the Bujinkan is not the ultimate martial art and there are things you can learn from other arts. But like Fallen Ninja I kind of feel that the poster should stick with Bujinkan for a good while before trying new things.

I have seen people who _teach_ Bujinkan who move more like karateka or judoka and believe that they are doing what the mainstream Bujinkan is supposed to be. I rather suspect that Mrh's teacher may be one of them if he advised a begginer to cross train.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 15, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> On the other hand, I recently talked about how in the Bujinkan we do not have things that you can find in things like Russian Martial Arts such as Systema. The way they can absorb punches may indeed be a good addition to the modern artist. In the old days, the prevelent idea was that everyone had a bladed weapon and I doubt the idea of taking a blow was a top priority.


Two highly merited, though relatively unknown, Bujinkan practitioners that I know of used to hammer each other's collar bones just to see if they could manage to break them, back when both of them were training. They never could, as far as I know.



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> On the gripping hand (kudos for the first person to identify that reference) it may be that trying too early to work on taking a blow may detract from the Bujinkan's emphisis of avoiding a blow.


On the other hand, when there's roughly 200 pounds of ninth dan mayhem focused on the end of a 180 centimeter Japanese white oak stick, you tend to learn pretty fast which parries can be done repeatedly and which ones you only do once, assuming you're not wearing armour...



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> I have seen people who _teach_ Bujinkan who move more like karateka or judoka and believe that they are doing what the mainstream Bujinkan is supposed to be.


Mainstream Bujinkan? Is there really anything like that (*not being ironic nor assuming mainstream Bujinkan means what's currently done in Japan*)?


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## rutherford (Oct 17, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> On the gripping hand (kudos for the first person to identify that reference) it may be that trying too early to work on taking a blow may detract from the Bujinkan's emphisis of avoiding a blow.



Alright, I'll admit to an enjoyment of classic SF novels.  I never did manage to read _The Gripping Hand_ but I have the first book.

When presented with three options, the gripping hand is often the most compelling option.

. . .

Don, do you practice Silat Juru or Langkah?  I've seen you mention Silat before, and I was wondering if you'd practiced their muscle memory excercises.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 17, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Mainstream Bujinkan? Is there really anything like that (*not being ironic nor assuming mainstream Bujinkan means what's currently done in Japan*)?


 In my opinion there does exist a mainstream Bujinkan and fringe groups.  How to define it, is a different question indeed.  There are clearly many people out here doing their own thing.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 17, 2005)

And you base this on your experience with several different dojos, perhaps even of different nationalities?


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## Don Roley (Oct 17, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> And you base this on your experience with several different dojos, perhaps even of different nationalities?



Well, I do. You should see the way some people that show up _to Japan_ seem to want to do their own thing more than what the teacher is doing. At class last night the teacher was talking to me and a Japanese student about how so many people in the Bujinkan don't seem to go through the stuff the teacher is showing but rather do their own thing to make the other person go splat. It may seem to work, but there are lesson to be lerned from doing things a specific way and they lose the chance to learn those lessons by trying to change things in the quest for a quick result.

When I talk about mainstream Bujinkan, I am talking about what I see Hatsumi and the Japanese shihan doing. As I said, there are many, many more that seem to move more like a karateka or a judoka more than they move like the Noguchi, Nagato or any other big name Japanese.


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## Dale Seago (Oct 17, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> When I talk about mainstream Bujinkan, I am talking about what I see Hatsumi and the Japanese shihan doing.



Same here. This is, after all, the group that defines the Bujinkan.

I have the same gripe as Don about people who want to "do their own thing" rather than first trying to grasp what's being shown. . .So did Harada sensei when he was here in California for a year. 

Ironically, a correspondent in Japan just saw the 15-minute "class" I taped for Issue #3 of Modern Knives Video Magazine. He's met me in Japan, but it's interesting that he commented after seeing it, "I am sorry I never got to see you do your thing before now".

Well, of course, on the video I am indeed doing MY thing (and a couple of my students are doing theirs). In Japan, I try to do whatever I (think I) can understand of Soke's thing, or the things of the various shihan I train with.

Meaning that over there, I mostly look like an idiot. Yet for some reason Soke keeps throwing menkyo at me every now and then. No discussion or warning, they just show up in my mailbox.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 18, 2005)

Sorry guys, but I think we're not getting through to each other here. I really don't think you can equate the majority of Bujinkan practitioners around the world with the Japanese shihan (putting it mildly, we've already established that the grasp of kihon among Bujinkan practitioners generally speaking is...less than desirable). That is what we SHOULD be doing, if we were close to their level of proficiency. Having said that, I absolutely agree that you at least should be trying to replicate what you are being shown in Japan whilst in Japan, but I don't think you can call that the type of training most people could or should be focusing on while at home, (hopefully) trying to better themselves beforehand. When in Japan, do as the Japanese do, sure...but it also seems prudent to know your own limitations, right? 
When I was considerably younger and wrote letters to Beastie Boys and Cypress Hill asking them to be present at my 11th birthday party, that made perfect sense at the time. Looking back on it now, however, it obviously seems a tad unrealistic, and above all moronic. But you see, I made the same mistake a lot of people do with the Japanese shihan nowadays. I thought that my then idols were really exactly like me deep down inside, only I had chosen to be ten or eleven years old, going to school every day and getting into fights with the children of refugees from the former Soviet union, and they had chosen their hiphop music careers. That was not the case, and it still isn't today.


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## Don Roley (Oct 18, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I absolutely agree that you at least should be trying to replicate what you are being shown in Japan whilst in Japan, but I don't think you can call that the type of training most people could or should be focusing on while at home, (hopefully) trying to better themselves beforehand. When in Japan, do as the Japanese do, sure...but it also seems prudent to know your own limitations, right?



I must strongly disagree.

When you train in a dojo with 'Bujinkan' as part of the title, I think you should always try to follow the way the head of the art trains and teaches no matter how far away you are from him. Otherwise, why bother? I see far too many people adding a little of this, and a little of that, and the results mess up their traijutsu _from a Japan perspective._ 

And I don't think it is unrealistic as long as you accept your limitations and not try to teach more than you have been taught about the subject matter. Anyone who reads these boards knowns I come down on the idea of learning from video, notes or things like that. How the heck do you think I feel about people that take non-Bujinkan things to try to fill in holes in their knowledge?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 18, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> When you train in a dojo with 'Bujinkan' as part of the title, I think you should always try to follow the way the head of the art trains and teaches no matter how far away you are from him. Otherwise, why bother? I see far too many people adding a little of this, and a little of that, and the results mess up their traijutsu _from a Japan perspective._




I never said that I don't want to be able to move like the Japanese _eventually_, did I? But first things first. There is a good quote on the front page of www.bujinkanbudokai.nl about this subject.



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> And I don't think it is unrealistic as long as you accept your limitations and not try to teach more than you have been taught about the subject matter.


Well, I'm a bit skeptical to that as well, because all too often I see and hear about people who come home from a two-week stay in Japan and start teaching stuff they've picked up over there. But all that they're really doing is demonstrating all these cool, subtle and advanced _techniques_ they've been learning, the rarely if ever share their own personal reflections or try to put something across with it on their own volition. 
Now, I'm fortunate enough to being able to train with people who not only can demonstrate these things they've learned in Japan, but also add their own personal touch to it all, demonstrate how the concepts of what they've learned can be applied in various different scenarios, and perhaps most importantly, _how it relates to kihon. _Given a choice between these two kinds of instructors, which ones do you think I'm going to be spending the most time training with?



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> How the heck do you think I feel about people that take non-Bujinkan things to try to fill in holes in their knowledge?


I'm sorry, you lost me there. What does that have to do with knowing your own limitations as far as taijutsu is concerned?


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## Don Roley (Oct 18, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> [/i]
> 
> I never said that I don't want to be able to move like the Japanese _eventually_, did I? But first things first. There is a good quote on the front page of www.bujinkanbudokai.nl about this subject.


 
I got the quote, it goes like this.




> "Sensei teaches art, but when people imitate him, they try to do the abstract too soon. It can work for now but the gaps in the basis will show in a few years"
> Nagato Sensei, March 2005



And I can say that I agree with the above. But that does not mean that people should not be trying to move like the _Japanese_ in the way they do taijutsu.

What I hear, and what I think Nagato was talking about, is the fact that Hatsumi can move like he does due to a lot of very basic training. He does not move around in deep stances anymore, but he used to. And it is because he moved so deeply that he is able to move so well now. What Nagato is talking about (I would bet) is that people see him stand up higher than he does in the old pictures and think that they don't have to go through that old sort of training. I do not agree, and the teachers I train under feel the same way. They can teach you the basics that Hatsumi should not waste his time teaching. But so many people just want to go straight to the head and do nothing except what he is doing now and ignore all that went on before.

I think that a beggining is a very, very delicate time. You can pick up habits that can haunt you for years. I speak as a person who trained under an instructor in America who had his own way of moving and later moved to Japan. If you start out developing habits from other arts or instructors that try to do their own thing, you will end up taking years to try to get rid of them to move like the Japanese later on. I speak from personal experience here. If you want to eventually move like the Japanese, you had better start today.



			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> [/i]Well, I'm a bit skeptical to that as well, because all too often I see and hear about people who come home from a two-week stay in Japan and start teaching stuff they've picked up over there. But all that they're really doing is demonstrating all these cool, subtle and advanced _techniques_ they've been learning, the rarely if ever share their own personal reflections or try to put something across with it on their own volition.
> Now, I'm fortunate enough to being able to train with people who not only can demonstrate these things they've learned in Japan, but also add their own personal touch to it all,



I assume you have heard of the concept of _shu- ha- ri._ I am personally very leary of those that would come back from Japan and then immediatly start teaching their own interpetations of the subject matter. I believe there should be a lot of practice and study with the subject matter _exactly_ as it was learned before trying to fool with it. To jump past that stage and immediatly try to stamp their own aspects onto it is to miss the important lessons that come from supressing the ego and just following the guidence of the teacher by doing what they do as they taught it.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 18, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> What I hear, and what I think Nagato was talking about, is the fact that Hatsumi can move like he does due to a lot of very basic training. He does not move around in deep stances anymore, but he used to. And it is because he moved so deeply that he is able to move so well now. What Nagato is talking about (I would bet) is that people see him stand up higher than he does in the old pictures and think that they don't have to go through that old sort of training. I do not agree, and the teachers I train under feel the same way. They can teach you the basics that Hatsumi should not waste his time teaching. But so many people just want to go straight to the head and do nothing except what he is doing now and ignore all that went on before.


Isn't that what I've been saying all along? 



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> If you want to eventually move like the Japanese, you had better start today.


Whom are you speaking to? 

My totally unqualified, unsupported and unfounded assumption is this: if someone who started training this year were to immediately try to copy the Japanese shihan the way they move today, ten years from now, his taijutsu would look _less_ like the Japanese than if he had taken the time to acquire the skills necessary to elaborate on and/or copy their movements correctly.



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> I assume you have heard of the concept of _shu- ha- ri._ I am personally very leary of those that would come back from Japan and then immediatly start teaching their own interpetations of the subject matter.


My description was not the best possible, I'm aware of that. My point was that I would rather train with people that have enough experience and quality as instructors to do something useful with what they've picked up in Japan, rather than those who can merely demonstrate techniques, but not bring across any of the underlying messages the Japanese shihan are trying to put across...



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> I believe there should be a lot of practice and study with the subject matter _exactly_ as it was learned before trying to fool with it. To jump past that stage and immediatly try to stamp their own aspects onto it is to miss the important lessons that come from supressing the ego and just following the guidence of the teacher by doing what they do as they taught it.


Two years ago, I was at this seminar in which a very highly regarded shihan (anyone may PM me if you would like to know whom) and one of the most sought after instructors around the world, said that what has been taught of juppo sessho were in some ways similar to the kata in the densho; it is a model given to us to practice and perfect - BUT, we also have to practice it to make it effective, because it's not effective from the beginning.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 18, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> And you base this on your experience with several different dojos, perhaps even of different nationalities?


 It is my opinion based on (for starters) what I have seen at seminars where people from many dojos participate, there are many pieces of evidence that I have used to form my opinion.  After all it is my opinion, I do think it is obvious to most, but you are free to disagree.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 18, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> When I talk about mainstream Bujinkan, I am talking about what I see Hatsumi and the Japanese shihan doing. As I said, there are many, many more that seem to move more like a karateka or a judoka more than they move like the Noguchi, Nagato or any other big name Japanese.


 This is also evident on the videos from Japan as well.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 18, 2005)

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I do not think that participating in seminars can be viewed as the same as regular training. There is a world of differences. For instance, at seminars, everyone usually performs worse than they usually do at their regular dojo; you're training with new people who do things you're not used to and have different movement capabilities and pain thresholds, you have to practice new techniques together with people you don't know, there are often no mats on the floor, it's early in the morning, maybe you've got a slight hangover:uhyeah:, there are often less possibilities to get corrections from the instructor etc etc etc...

EDIT: What videos? The Quest videos? Or the Daikomyosai/Taikai videos?


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## Bigshadow (Oct 18, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> When you train in a dojo with 'Bujinkan' as part of the title, I think you should always try to follow the way the head of the art trains and teaches no matter how far away you are from him. Otherwise, why bother? I see far too many people adding a little of this, and a little of that, and the results mess up their traijutsu _from a Japan perspective._


  I strongly agree with that!  I guess I wouldn't be alone if I said I am still very far from moving like Soke! HAHAHA All kidding aside, I think it is important to try and emulate what he does and through this, we will begin to feel the art the way he does.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 18, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I strongly agree with that! I guess I wouldn't be alone if I said I am still very far from moving like Soke! HAHAHA All kidding aside, I think it is important to try and emulate what he does and through this, we will begin to feel the art the way he does.





			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> the teachers I train under feel the same way. They can teach you the basics that Hatsumi should not waste his time teaching.


:asian:


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## Bigshadow (Oct 18, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I do not think that participating in seminars can be viewed as the same as regular training. There is a world of differences. For instance, at seminars, everyone usually performs worse than they usually do at their regular dojo; you're training with new people who do things you're not used to and have different movement capabilities and pain thresholds, you have to practice new techniques together with people you don't know, there are often no mats on the floor, it's early in the morning, maybe you've got a slight hangover:uhyeah:, there are often less possibilities to get corrections from the instructor etc etc etc...


 I disgree. If you cannot do something with a different body, then you truly have not learned it. That is just like when I was learning to fly. I would get so nervous and mess up when landing at another unfamiliar airport. My flight instructor would say "it is just another F$$##@#$ slab of concrete". He is right. I needed more practice. Seminars are a great opportunity to grow. Fundamentally, unless you have NOT been training very long, you will move like you have been taught. Plus that whole nervousness is over after the first 15 minutes or so, for me anyway. For these reasons, I disagree.



			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> EDIT: What videos? The Quest videos? Or the Daikomyosai/Taikai videos?


 Daikomyosai/Taikai, also, I will tell you I look at the videos people put online on their websites and I have viewed many and I can see worlds of differences between the people (even doing the same thing). I won't mention any of them, just say that I watch them and I see differences.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 18, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I disgree. If you cannot do something with a different body, then you truly have not learned it.


If you haven't experienced what I spoke about, you haven't been to enough seminars. I apologize for sounding arrogant but that's the way it is.



			
				Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Daikomyosai/Taikai, also, I will tell you I look at the videos people put online on their websites and I have viewed many and I can see worlds of differences between the people (even doing the same thing). I won't mention any of them, just say that I watch them and I see differences.


Now that I can agree with (the video clips people put up here and there, that is). Most American and German videos I've seen have clear evidence of people trying to become "movement minimalists" too early.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 18, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> My totally unqualified, unsupported and unfounded assumption is this: if someone who started training this year were to immediately try to copy the Japanese shihan the way they move today, ten years from now, his taijutsu would look _less_ like the Japanese than if he had taken the time to acquire the skills necessary to elaborate on and/or copy their movements correctly.


 It is my assumption that even emulating someone, it will rarely look *exactly* the same due to the differences of each person, but it should look very similar.

 For instance in training, if I understand the principles of particular movment, I can watch others and tell whether they are applying the principles or not, even though their body movment isn't exactly the same, although, their movement will be *similar*.

   That is my $.02 worth of opinion regarding the reasons for trying to emulate Soke.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 18, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> If you haven't experienced what I spoke about, you haven't been to enough seminars. I apologize for sounding arrogant but that's the way it is.


 That's cool, I don't take it that way.  Although, I don't agree.  I think it is all relative, anyway.


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## Dale Seago (Oct 18, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> What I hear, and what I think Nagato was talking about, is the fact that Hatsumi can move like he does due to a lot of very basic training. He does not move around in deep stances anymore, but he used to. And it is because he moved so deeply that he is able to move so well now. What Nagato is talking about (I would bet) is that people see him stand up higher than he does in the old pictures and think that they don't have to go through that old sort of training. I do not agree, and the teachers I train under feel the same way. They can teach you the basics that Hatsumi should not waste his time teaching. But so many people just want to go straight to the head and do nothing except what he is doing now and ignore all that went on before.



Yes, some people seem to just want to train with Soke; and, since they're getting stuff straight from the source, they think they must be learning the art. I agree with Don that you have to spend time with the shihan and you have to develop sound basics.

There is, however, a view some hold which is diametrically opposed to the "only train with Soke" view. This perspective goes something like,

"You can't get to where Soke is unless you go through the sort of training progression he went through. Therefore I'm only going to teach kihon and densho kata, with the concepts and strategies of the different ryuha, to people for X number of years before I start doing anything else with them like 'theme of the year' stuff which has absolutely no relevance to them and is beyond their grasp."

I heard that from a shidoshi a few days ago. Said that last year his students worked only on Koto ryu, which he considers the best foundation because it's easiest to grasp -- very direct and "to the point". This year they've worked only on Koto ryu. Next year, they'll probably be working on Koto ryu.

Anybody see that as potentially problematic?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 18, 2005)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> which has absolutely no relevance to them and is beyond their grasp."


As I was trying to get across in post #22, whether or not that holds true often has quite a bit to do with  the instructor's teaching methods.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 18, 2005)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Anybody see that as potentially problematic?


 Yes, I do. Fortunately, we don't focus on any one Ryu-ha. We generally try to follow what they are doing in Japan.

 (Maybe this is related) I think the bar should be always be set higher. I have been training often with my instructor and do something and he would say "You already know how to do that, do something different?" By exposing people to things that they cannot grasp yet has a profound influence on their training. So I think it is important to often work just above the skill level (of the students), that is one of the things I enjoy about training with my instructor.

 Just my personal opinion about training... I have always been encouraged when seeking out training.... "To train with Soke or his Japanese shihan, or if not possible; with people who DO train with them, regularly."


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## mrhnau (Oct 18, 2005)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> "You can't get to where Soke is unless you go through the sort of training progression he went through. Therefore I'm only going to teach kihon and densho kata, with the concepts and strategies of the different ryuha, to people for X number of years before I start doing anything else with them like 'theme of the year' stuff which has absolutely no relevance to them and is beyond their grasp."
> 
> I heard that from a shidoshi a few days ago. Said that last year his students worked only on Koto ryu, which he considers the best foundation because it's easiest to grasp -- very direct and "to the point". This year they've worked only on Koto ryu. Next year, they'll probably be working on Koto ryu.
> 
> Anybody see that as potentially problematic?


As a beginner, maybe I can provide a little insight... what I'm seeing is a vast see of technique. When you enter, isn't it useful to focus on something somewhat basic for a while, until you have mastered what can be considered the "basics"? If you teach me 1000 techniques in the first month, what kind of retention will I have?

If you tell me to draw a picture and give me 1000 crayons, its going to take alot of time to consider each one and pick the "best" color for each circumstance. Give me 16 crayons and it might be a bit easier of a selection. The painting won't be quite as beautiful, but until i have mastered the art of drawing a picture, do I really need 1000 crayons? As a beginner, do I need to learn 200 ways to counter someone grabbing my arm? Why not just 2 or 3, depending on the circumstance? Let me master those, get proficient with those, then we can move forward and you teach me a wider variety of techniques.

Of course, knowledge needs to grow, but I don't want to full host of techniques thrown at me ASAP. I want to learn the basics first, then start a progression.  Understand, I'm very much a beginner, but wanted to share my .02. With regard to your quote Dale, is it 1 year for basics? is it 3 months? That should be more of the question I believe. I know you always practice your basics, but eventually you should move on some, I assume...

MrH


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## Bigshadow (Oct 18, 2005)

mrhnau said:
			
		

> As a beginner, maybe I can provide a little insight... what I'm seeing is a vast see of technique. When you enter, isn't it useful to focus on something somewhat basic for a while, until you have mastered what can be considered the "basics"? If you teach me 1000 techniques in the first month, what kind of retention will I have?


 Keep going and what will start happening is you will understand that there really is just 8. Not 1000s. (as I understand things). One way to look at it is pay particular attention to the shape that the uke's body takes when a technique is applied. There are many ways to make that uke's body form that shape. In my opinion the shape the body takes is key. The body can only take on so many shapes, it is the ways in which to make the body take those shapes that can be endless.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 18, 2005)

Thing is, you don't know for sure how an unfamiliar body is going to react to whatever you're doing. What will send one person to the floor screaming will make another one squirm like a worm to get out, a third will use his superior strength and resilience to withstand it, a fourth will punch you in the face, a fifth kick you in the shins etc etc...


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## Bigshadow (Oct 18, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Thing is, you don't know for sure how an unfamiliar body is going to react to whatever you're doing. What will send one person to the floor screaming will make another one squirm like a worm to get out, a third will use his superior strength and resilience to withstand it, a fourth will punch you in the face, a fifth kick you in the shins etc etc...


 EDIT:I want to say below is my opinion based on how I have been trained and my training experiences and is not intended to be from some authoritarian point of view. I am learning just like everyone else.

 Again, I disagree. I think, if you have done things correctly to control the attacker's spine/balance/kukan, etc, it extremely difficult, next to impossible to do all of the things you have mentioned. I think if one trains to be sensitive to what affects they are having on the uke and sticking to them, it is fairly easy to adjust and adapt to unfamiliar bodies.

 When I have been training and someone is able to punch me, kick me, or whatever, means I have not affected them correctly, so I go back and revisit what I am doing or not doing to resolve the issue.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 18, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Again, I disagree. I think, if you have done things correctly to control the attacker's spine/balance/kukan, etc, it extremely difficult, next to impossible to do all of the things you have mentioned. I think if one trains to be sensitive to what affects they are having on the uke and sticking to them, it is fairly easy to adjust and adapt to unfamiliar bodies.


I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings once again, but if you haven't experienced problems like these, odds are you haven't trained with a large enough amount of people, or people are being TOO cooperative with you.



			
				Bigshadow said:
			
		

> When I have been training and someone is able to punch me, kick me, or whatever, means I have not affected them correctly, so I go back and revisit what I am doing or not doing to resolve the issue.


I hope for your sake you have the resourcefulness and presence of mind to do this against someone genuinely intent on harming you.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 18, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings once again, but if you haven't experienced problems like these, odds are you haven't trained with a large enough amount of people, or people are being TOO cooperative with you.


 Dude, the training partners I train with don't give you nothing. So I don't think anyone is being cooperative, so if you aren't doing it right, it won't work. Don't get me wrong, there are times when it is a new movement or something, we will be cooperative for the first few tries, but I can guarantee you, three of the people I train with the most don't give me anything, likewise, I do the same for them. As uke, if we can get a punch, get out of a lock or submission we will do it, to let each other know where things went wrong. 




			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> I hope for your sake you have the resourcefulness and presence of mind to do this against someone genuinely intent on harming you.


 Certainly.... I have had my share of dings from these guys. 

    I still disagree with you  In all friendliness, I would like to see and feel some examples of what you are talking about, because I am still trying to figure out how your gonna punch or kick when I have control of your balance and spine (both of which you desparately need to punch or kick or anything else other than Sandbad No Kamae). Try delivering a good punch or kick when you are off balance or your spine is being twisted and compressed like a jack-in-the-box. In all honesty, I just don't see it, although, I am still just a relative beginner.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 18, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Dude, the training partners I train with don't give you nothing. So I don't think anyone is being cooperative, so if you aren't doing it right, it won't work.


By not being cooperative, do you mean that people don't do the techniques "on themselves" (good) or do you mean that they're actively resisting and countering whatever it is you're doing (bad unless you're told to)?



			
				Bigshadow said:
			
		

> As uke, if we can get a punch, get out of a lock or submission we will do it, to let each other know where things went wrong


Obviously, you're not doing this enough, or nobody would learn anything...it's always easier to screw people over when they're moving in slow motion.



			
				Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Certainly.... I have had my share of dings from these guys.


It appears that you're avoiding my question, correct me if I'm wrong. 



			
				Bigshadow said:
			
		

> examples of what you are talking about, because I am still trying to figure out how your gonna punch or kick when I have control of your balance and spine (both of which you desparately need to punch or kick or anything else other than Sandbad No Kamae).


As I've said before, people who pick fights with others tend to be in pretty good physical shape, which means that they don't need to utilize taijutsu principles to hit hard enough to do damage. Secondly, no lock, crank or controlling hold has a zero percentage failure rate. Anyone who says differently is lying. Wild defensive squirming and flailing about either while lying or standing always brings with it the possibility to disrupt your lock long enough for him to break free, and as all budoka know, while arms and legs may be pinned down it is considerably harder to stop someone from moving his hips - which, BTW, is the key to getting out from quite a lot of submission holds. Now, as much as I would love to daze people with dakentai so that they remain docile at times, that isn't something we can successfully replicate during training.



			
				Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Try delivering a good punch or kick when you are off balance or your spine is being twisted and compressed like a jack-in-the-box. In all honesty, I just don't see it, although, I am still just a relative beginner.


Let's say you give us an example of a specific technique you had in mind and we'll take it from there.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 19, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> By not being cooperative, do you mean that people don't do the techniques "on themselves" (good) or do you mean that they're actively resisting and countering whatever it is you're doing (bad unless you're told to)?


 They don't let the technique just happen, as you say "on themselves". Sometimes when told, we will attempt counters and so forth.



			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> it's always easier to screw people over when they're moving in slow motion.


 I am aware of how easy it is to screw people over when moving slow. Yes, it certainly helps the Uke to screw the tori when they anticipate what is going to happen and they move at twice the pace of the tori. Of course this isn't an example of a good uke.




			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> It appears that you're avoiding my question, correct me if I'm wrong.


 I didn't think I avoided the question. My point was yes I train with people who don't let the technique be done on themselves and who will keep you honest as well as attack with intention.



			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> As I've said before, people who pick fights with others tend to be in pretty good physical shape, which means that they don't need to utilize taijutsu principles to hit hard enough to do damage. Secondly, no lock, crank or controlling hold has a zero percentage failure rate. Anyone who says differently is lying.


 However they really have to rely on HEAVILY on isolated muscle to deliver a blow with any kind of force, but then again, it isn't static, I am not just standing there. I agree, with the zero percentage. I wasn't implying that. Also, flowing and often times letting them do what they think they want to do and sticking to them puts them at more of a disadvantage, progressively, until there is nothing else that can be done. So I really don't see where musles or being extremely fit on the part of the attacker make any significant difference in the effectiveness of our art.




			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> Wild defensive squirming and flailing about either while lying or standing always brings with it the possibility to disrupt your lock long enough for him to break free, and as all budoka know, while arms and legs may be pinned down it is considerably harder to stop someone from moving his hips -


 If they are squirming and flailing about, in my opinion they are not under any kind of control. What I mean is... Just because I have the wrist twisted doesn't mean they can't get out, I have to have more control than that. Or even if they were on the ground face down, depending on where I pin them and/or their arms determines just how much mobility they are going to have. Give them the space and they feel it, they will wiggle into it and get out. So don't give them the space to squeeze into or roll into. 






			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> Let's say you give us an example of a specific technique you had in mind and we'll take it from there.


 No examples or specific techniques in mind. These things are far easier to FEEL than WRITE. Also, this wasn't a challenge, it was a humble exploratory statement.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 19, 2005)

Folks, I apologize... I think Nimravus and I have hijacked this thread. It may need to be split off. I think we have drifted beyond the original question of the thread. :uhohh:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 19, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I am aware of how easy it is to screw people over when moving slow. Yes, it certainly helps the Uke to screw the tori when they anticipate what is going to happen and they move at twice the pace of the tori. Of course this isn't an example of a good uke.


Exactly, and if there are people who like to take advantage of these things during training. what do you think the average real life aggressor is going to behave like?



			
				Bigshadow said:
			
		

> My point was yes I train with people who don't let the technique be done on themselves and who will keep you honest as well as attack with intention.


And MY point was that I find it a tad farfetched that you claim the ability to stop and start over again whenever a technique didn't go as planned. Not something I would count on being able to do against a real aggressor. The fact of the matter is that different people have different limitations. There are people who don't feel full power slaps to the thighs, chest, arms and so forth. There are people who can pop their joints out of their sockets and back again at will. There are people who can touch the inside (and outside) of their forearms with the fingers of the same side hand. There are people who can bend their elbows almost 90 degree in the "wrong" direction. 



			
				Bigshadow said:
			
		

> but then again, it isn't static, I am not just standing there.


Neither are they, but I understand what you mean.



			
				Bigshadow said:
			
		

> So I really don't see where musles or being extremely fit on the part of the attacker make any significant difference in the effectiveness of our art.


If he is strong enough to hold your entire bodyweight with an outstretched arm and you don't have an equalizer of some sort, it's fairly safe to say that you're going to die. Here's a good tip: don't take on people like that. It is of course extremely unrealistic to go around thinking that there are that many people around who are that strong - some, of course, but very few. I've met two personally, however, none of whom were very prone to get into a lot of fights.

Generally speaking, I've found that the legs are a pretty good indicator of when you can handle someone and when you're better off beating a hasty escape. If you feel stability through your own legs when faced with someone, you have at least the possibility to emerge successful. If not, put your legs to better use by putting one foot in front of the other quickly and in the opposite direction...:asian: 



			
				Bigshadow said:
			
		

> If they are squirming and flailing about, in my opinion they are not under any kind of control.


That's not necessarily the case, it's just that kansetsu waza has a higher failure rate against people who can think clearly. In the book "Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu" there is a passage where Hatsumi tells of an incident in which a very large Israeli soldier was practicing some sort of arm lock with a smaller student. The smaller guy didn't seem assured that his technique was really effective, but the larger man calmly said that everything was working perfectly. However, Hatsumi could see the confidence in the bigger man's eyes, and that he could probably defeat the smaller person even if his arm was broken.



			
				Bigshadow said:
			
		

> No examples or specific techniques in mind. These things are far easier to FEEL than WRITE. Also, this wasn't a challenge, it was a humble exploratory statement.


Now I'm not saying anything about your personal ability to do this, since I've never met you. It's just that it is folly to think you can control everybody in the world in the same manner without any sort of adaptation, because different people have different limitations and different degrees of difficulty to deal with.


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## Don Roley (Oct 19, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> My totally unqualified, unsupported and unfounded assumption is this: if someone who started training this year were to immediately try to copy the Japanese shihan the way they move today, ten years from now, his taijutsu would look _less_ like the Japanese than if he had taken the time to acquire the skills necessary to elaborate on and/or copy their movements correctly.



Obviously, as a Japan Elitist, I feel differently. :supcool: 

I think that you are thinking of just going through the higher level stuff with the Japanese shihan. That is not what I am saying. While working out with them, they have often pointed out problems I have due to flawed basics passed on to me by my old American instructor (i.e. "The Evil One.") They show me how using the basics correctly help make the advanced stuff work as it is supposed to.

The thing is, the basics I had/have pass muster outside of Japan. Based on my observarions, I would say that only about three percent or (probably) less of people teaching have all the skills in the _Tenchijin_ to a somewhat decent level. I know I am not going to make friends by saying that.

So, I have to wonder aloud if your teachers really do know the kihon happo and are able to integrate what they learned with what is being shown in Japan now.

As I said, I look at people from all over the world training here in Japan and they do not look like what the Japanese teachers are doing. I can see where they think that taking things like _Osoto-gari_ from judo is close enough for taijutsu. Some of them have used be to ask, beg even, the Japanese to show them the very basics and assume they know nothing. In ten years, I can count those types on one hand. Most often, the Japanese don't bother to correct these mistakes if people don't seem to be trying to do EXACTLY what they were showing.

I think the greatest influence on the Bujinkan overseas is from people like the Evil One, who I know is very active right now in making money off of Gyokko ryu even though he does not seem to have been to Japan this year, or more than a week the last year it was taught. He teaches things that he claims are Bujinkan basics, but really are taken from things like aikido, judo or other arts like the subject of this thread is about, or from videos and books filtered through his experiences in other arts and not actual Bujinkan instruction.

He is very influential, and he is not the only one who has taught a lot of Bujinkan stuff while actually being more influenced by other arts.

That is why I say that you should not try to learn other arts too early and that you should go to the Japanese shihan to train, begging them to show you the basics to make sure you are doing a Bujinkan technique rather than one borrowed from another martial art. 

I honestly think more people should be questioning their basics than trying to learn basics from other arts.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 19, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Obviously, as a Japan Elitist, I feel differently. :supcool:
> 
> I think that you are thinking of just going through the higher level stuff with the Japanese shihan. That is not what I am saying.


Well, that was what I had in mind, and I have no objections to anything else you're saying.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 19, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Exactly, and if there are people who like to take advantage of these things during training. what do you think the average real life aggressor is going to behave like?


  That is why we train.  Better to find these things out on the mat and not on the street.



			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> And MY point was that I find it a tad farfetched that you claim the ability to stop and start over again whenever a technique didn't go as planned. Not something I would count on being able to do against a real aggressor.


 That wasn't precisely what I meant. Why I meant by the "starting over" is I keep working on the drill to find out why I am getting clocked. Not that I stop at that point and start over (this is bad to do). Sorry for the confusion.



			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> If he is strong enough to hold your entire bodyweight with an outstretched arm and you don't have an equalizer of some sort, it's fairly safe to say that you're going to die.


  I don't think I have to worry too much about that! 




			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> Now I'm not saying anything about your personal ability to do this, since I've never met you. It's just that it is folly to think you can control everybody in the world in the same manner without any sort of adaptation, because different people have different limitations and different degrees of difficulty to deal with.


 First, I don't think *I* can control everyone in the world. However, I feel confident the principles are there to do so, if I ever get mastery of them. Also, I never said without adaption.  I am not talking about trying to apply the densho verbatim, what I am talking about are the principles they embody. During training, doing the same thing on two different people is going to look different each time and even moreso different each successive time with the same person, each attack is never EXACTLY the same. Of course when training it is the responsibility of the uke to do the attack (within their ability) the SAME way every time unless told otherwise by the instructor. That said, I feel adherence to the principles of proper movement will be effective no matter what strength or size the human is. Also, I think proper movement is NOT always the exact same movement across the board, the movement must "fit" the shape of the attack and each persons physical characteristics WILL shape that attack.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 19, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I don't think I have to worry too much about that!


It MAY also be enough to cause you trouble for someone to have enough strength to RESIST your bodyweight for a brief period of time.



			
				Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Of course when training it is the responsibility of the uke to do the attack (within their ability) the SAME way every time unless told otherwise by the instructor.


Well, if you've never experienced any anomalies in regards to that rule of thumb, I maintain that you've not trained with a large enough number of people.:asian:


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## Bigshadow (Oct 19, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> It MAY also be enough to cause you trouble for someone to have enough strength to RESIST your bodyweight for a brief period of time.


  My reply to that was tongue-n-cheek.  Maybe you haven't seen my picture lately HAHAHA  However, I understood what you meant.

  :asian:


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## Dale Seago (Oct 19, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> It MAY also be enough to cause you trouble for someone to have enough strength to RESIST your bodyweight for a brief period of time.



I have a couple of students with that level of strength. Makes absolutely no  difference, as they can't use it when they're off-balance/out of position. . .which is part of any taijutsu technique.

Bigshadow, my sincere compliments to your teachers.  :asian:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 19, 2005)

Of course, actually GETTING them off balance is never as easy as we would like, though I doubt my own ability a tad more than yours (Dale).:asian:


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## Kizaru (Oct 19, 2005)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> I have a couple of students with that level of strength. Makes absolutely no difference, as they can't use it when they're off-balance/out of position. . .which is part of any taijutsu technique.


Thank you!
:asian:


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