# Should You Stay Or Should You Go?



## MJS (May 14, 2010)

I have my own thoughts on this, but wanted to put this out for discussion.  In another thread in this section, a member made a comment, so I wanted to use what they said, as a basis for this thread. 

Here is the comment:



> The second best self-defense is to disable your attacker enough to allow you to run like hell.


 
So, the question is...do you take this advice and get the hell out of the area, or do you hang around, calling the police perhaps?


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## repz (May 14, 2010)

Go, I dont want to hang around when cops come. I have had bad experiences with cops in situations where their actions werent needed. Many people who I grew up with feel the same way about situations like this. I had to readjust myself through life to see cops as good guys with the way I used to see them as kid. 

Mind you, I respect good cops, and still have my fingers crossed that they call me in as a recruit. And those times have changed somewhat with cameras on phones and youtube.

I'm also dont want to be targeted because I look or dress a certain way that me defending myself would change to a gang fight, or some other nonsense.. So I learned to leave fast.

Plus, I like to add that someone getting their butt handed to them usually doesnt warrant an investigation unless you killed them, was a hate crime, or they were important. They wont extract dna for a black eye and broken arm, especially if the dude has a record, or is the type to start a fight.


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## thardey (May 14, 2010)

I'd be calling it in on my cell phone while heading to another part of town. If the cops want to know where I am, I'll meet them at the station.

Staying around a situation where violence occured once is a good bet to invite more violence.


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## Andy Moynihan (May 14, 2010)

*If it is possible to do so safely*, stay on scene.

If you leave the scene, you lose control of the witnesses and may lose the opportunity to be the first involved party to tell the police what happened. If it is possible for you to stay, you have a chance to stick in the minds of the witnesses that you are the *G*ood *P*erson ( For example-- once hostilities have ceased you might take the chance as you lower your muzzle and threat-scan 360 degrees, you might take that opportunity to make some eye contact with witnesses and start asking " Is everyone else all right"? If any approach you can take the opportunity to say "Get Back, Get back, he/they may still be dangerous!" Or "I can't stop you going over to check on him but I do not advise it because he may still be dangerous" (Because you want it understood that you are the *G*ood *P*erson( Which in fact you ARE) and who would stay on scene and ask and say these things to witnesses who was not the *G*ood *P*erson?)

This is the age of cellphones( and more to the point Cellphone CAMERAS). Use it to your advantage that way. If the DA decides to prosecute you WILL need every advantage you can get.

It also means you may not be the first to call 911. Do so ANYWAY. Do not delegate that to a witness, you want to be the first *involved party* to get your side told. Give your name and location twice (because the first time will probably be garbled by adrenaline stress) simply say "I was attacked, and had to (shoot, spray, stop, whatever) this person to save my life". If weapons were involved, TELL THEM. Don't let the cops roll up unprepared for weapons, they won't appreciate that.

If YOU use a weapon, please, please, please have the sense NOT to still have it in your hand when the cops roll up, and if I have to tell you why, you shouldn't be carrying in the first place.* As soon as it is possible to do so safely,* Either reholster it, or if safe, lay it on a vehicle or ground spot with the cylinder/slide open and all ammo removed if a firearm. The arriving officers will take it from there.



If it is NOT safe to stay (perhaps your intended stun/disable never fail technique sequence failed, or your spray failed to have the desired effect, or you've had to shoot, but this is his neighborhood and here come his homies around the corner) or it is otherwise tactically imprudent to stay, go, but refer again to calling 911 above *as soon as it is possible to do so safely* and follow all phone instructions above.


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## Archangel M (May 14, 2010)

If you run off and let the other guy be the first person to tell his side of the story...well lets just say it looks like you ran off for a reason.


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## tellner (May 14, 2010)

To the police flight == guilt. It really is just about that simple.

The "Shoot. Shovel. Shut up" macho garbage will ensure that your claim of self defense is laughed out of court.

As Andy and others have said, call the police as soon as it's safe to do so. If you are still at risk and have to go somewhere else, contact them as soon as you can.


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## Hudson69 (May 14, 2010)

I dont want to be a fence sitter but I have to say it depends; if I am on "my turf" and I am familiar with the location/ROE then I would probably sit tight/stand my ground.  If I am a stranger in a strange land then distance is your friend.

My .02 only.....


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## shesulsa (May 15, 2010)

I hate to be a fence-sitter, but self-defense situations are a flowchart in the making.  We can't win every fight - no one's juevos are that large.  

If I feel lucky to have escaped an attacker ... you're damn right I'm gonna run like hell.  My armchair plan is to try and find somewhere in the vicinity or perhaps seek safety in numbers so I can keep an eye on the person and call the police ASAP / will try not to run too far.  But the very next contact I aim to have (again, armchair plan in place) is with the authorities.  

This just *has* to depend on the situation.  

My humble opinion is that if you live a fairly clean life and don't invite trouble, stay aware, use tactics to avoid problems (been discussed before) the likelihood that you will suffer a *serious* beatdown focused solely on you is pretty minimal.  That said, however, *anything* is possible. You could be at the wrong place at the wrong time, attacked for NO reason whatsoever. It could be you've been noticed as a difficult target and a challenge for a serial criminal. You might be mistaken for some other jerk who should be getting the beat-down you might be the victim of.

That said ... if a 300-lb. guy manages to get me in his mitts, I'm broken and/or bleeding, I've been disarmed and I actually manage to get away ... yeah - I'm running!


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## repz (May 15, 2010)

Plus theres the threat of getting sued. I mean, if the question is would you escape, that means hes out, or you broke something on him that you have the option of leaving the scene. That can be easily titled deadly force, which can land you in jail anyway, or open you up to lawsuits. People have sued cops over this and won, I wont take that chance.


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## Touch Of Death (May 15, 2010)

Most of these posts deal in that hypothetical hits the Fan sort of thing. I'm not sure that is how most fights develop. Often times somthing got said and repeated, and you have this open threatening situation looming over your head. I find not running in these situations can help. Just act non-challant. Show a positive attitude, and sometimes the situation will disolve.
Sean


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## Kyosanim (May 16, 2010)

MJS said:


> I have my own thoughts on this, but wanted to put this out for discussion.  In another thread in this section, a member made a comment, so I wanted to use what they said, as a basis for this thread.
> 
> Here is the comment:
> 
> ...



That really depends on the area and what happened as well as if the guy needs a doctor.


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## seasoned (May 16, 2010)

If you do some defensive moves with witnesses around, then you need to stay. Going will only implicate you in wrong doing. Late at night, on a dark street, do what you have to do and leave, if you can.


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## Hawke (May 16, 2010)

As Guro Marc "Craftydog" Denny would say, "Prepare your witnesses."

Let the people around you know that you are defending yourself.

If the situation is safe enough to wait for an LEO to show up then I would stay, otherwise I like the cell phone idea.


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## Drac (May 16, 2010)

Andy Moynihan said:


> *If it is possible to do so safely*, stay on scene.


 


Archangel M said:


> If you run off and let the other guy be the first person to tell his side of the story...well lets just say it looks like you ran off for a reason.


 
Good thoughts...


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (May 17, 2010)

Back before everyone had a camera on their phone and Big Brother cameras were not all over urban areas and places of buisness, I would get out of dodge as soon as it was over (or I could get away) unless it was on my turf so to speak.

 Most witnesses can't ID someone after a violent , ugly situation happens, so then and if I was an Instructor back then I would say split.

 Violence was so pervassive where I lived from 87-94 that the BSO (cops there) did not give a damn about simple assults or even nasty fights as they had a rampant Crack problem and people shooting, stabbing and robbing each other, so if you were not there when BSO showed up, you were probably OK.

 Now we have cameras everywhere and you have to be more concerned with the law. (I dont like it, as most laws regarding use of force are written by people who have no idea of such situations and what it can take to protect yourself)

 If I can stay, I will stay and I will call 9-11 and say the following "There is an emergency, send emergency services. I am at ****. I can't stay on the phone, but I will leave it on." if it a situation that is pretty much over and doe not require me to deploy a weapon.

 If I have to hold a weapn on someone than I will tell the Operator I am an armed citizen defending myself and I will put the weapon down only after the police can secure us both.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (May 17, 2010)

Hawke said:


> As Guro Marc "Craftydog" Denny would say, "Prepare your witnesses."
> 
> Let the people around you know that you are defending yourself.
> 
> If the situation is safe enough to wait for an LEO to show up then I would stay, otherwise I like the cell phone idea.


 
 We train if confronted to adopt a natural ready stance with your palms forward and elbows bent an we say "I don't want any trouble, leave me be." 

 You just look like someone adopting a natural, non martial arts defensive posture as oppossed to throwing your fist up or doing some obvious MA stance, you dont look like you are looking to fight, but you are very close to a Muay Thai or Pekiti Tarsia fighting stance.


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## Archangel M (May 17, 2010)

Good point being made here is that "leaving the scene" shouldn't be confused with not reporting the incident. Some people seem to imply that leaving the immediate scene means not telling anybody about it in order to avoid criminal charges, civil suit, etc. If that is what you believe then you will most likely NOT come out looking like you were a victim.


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## Balrog (May 21, 2010)

MJS said:


> So, the question is...do you take this advice and get the hell out of the area, or do you hang around, calling the police perhaps?


LOL - that was my comment.  The complete text was:


> Having said that, assuming that the situation has degenerated to actual violence, the first and best self-defense is to run like hell. The second best self-defense is to disable your attacker enough to allow you to run like hell.


Note the common element: run like hell.  All of self-defense can be boiled down to a common formula:  distract, release, stun, run.  The idea is to get yourself to a place of safety where you can call for help.  

No, I wouldn't leave the area.  I'm a witness to what happened, so I need to make myself available to the officers ASAP, especially if I'm going to file charges.  But in order to do that, I've got to get to a place of safety first.


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## MJS (May 21, 2010)

In todays world, with 'big brother' being everywhere, and with everyone running around acting like they're a news reporter, filming things with a camcorder or cell phone cam, as tempting as it may be, to leave the guy in a heap, and take off, it is best to stay, if safe to do so, and call the police.  

Not long ago, I linked an article to a story that happened in New Haven, Ct.  A guy was having lunch in a park, guy comes up to him with a knife, and tries to mug him.  The other guy pulls out a gun, that he legally could carry, shot the guy, and then called the cops.  AFAIK, the guy was not charged for the shooting.  

Obviously this was in broad daylight, there were people around, so chances are, if the guy took off, something bad probably would've come out of that.  

Of course, as someone else mentioned, if you give any witnesses a good picture, chances are it'll work in your favor.  IE: hands up in a defensive, non threatening manner, saying things like "Hey man, I dont want any trouble.", etc., are things that will hopefully work in your favor.


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## sgtmac_46 (May 22, 2010)

MJS said:


> I have my own thoughts on this, but wanted to put this out for discussion. In another thread in this section, a member made a comment, so I wanted to use what they said, as a basis for this thread.
> 
> Here is the comment:
> 
> ...


 
Depends on the totality of the situation.


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## repz (May 22, 2010)

For someone whos muscled up, and goes through discrimination, staying on scene can have serious consequences. Thats the reality of the situation. No one built a clear picture to the situation, but in my head, it depends on many factors if you stay or go.

If you and him are the witness, and the guy doesnt have a record, whats makes you think your story would hold weight? Especially if you are standing above him while he tries to fix his face (which is assualt, and is the only evidence they can actually see, which is your red fists to their bleeding face). If anything, you'd both were probably be hit with some lesser crime like disturbing the peace, just so you can ride and they can get their pat on the back. And considering above where I am not the shirt and tie type guy and my look doesnt look like the guy who gets jumped, but does the jumping instead, I can easily see this outcome. If hes with a friend, since I am assuming by the question you are alone, you have two witnesses against your own.

Only way I would stay on scene, or close to it, is if theres a crowd with witness that are actually going to say something, or if its in my own neighborhood (which to be honest, I'll be worried he might find me again, so Id have no choice but to stay and point him out and hopefully me living in the area can appeal to the cop). I would call the cops if he tried to rob me or shoot me, because chances are he has a record, or would do it again. If its a, "hey, you looked at my girl!" "no i didnt", "yes you did!"... then you will both ride to jail. I seen it in clubs all the time, even with witnesses.


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## Archangel M (May 22, 2010)

repz said:


> If its a, "hey, you looked at my girl!" "no i didnt", "yes you did!"... then you will both ride to jail. I seen it in clubs all the time, even with witnesses.



And rightly so.


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## sgtmac_46 (May 22, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> And rightly so.


 
Yep, because usually instead of walking away, the guy who is being accused of looking at the girl wants to make a point (probably because he was actually looking at his girl) and that's how the fight starts.

In a bar situation, anyone who has half a brain can recognize someone eyeballing them 20 minutes before the confrontation starts. And if they don't want a confrontation, they should probably just leave.

That having been said, if one must get in a fight in a bar situation, it is probably best advised (contrary to some other situations) to flee the scene before the police arrive. The reality is that most of the other folks won't cooperate with the police investigation, including the injured other party, and those that do are probably too drunk to be effective witnesses anyway.

What's more, unless it's a very serious injury, the police don't have time to really investigate a bar brawl that's already been resolved. Staying on the scene risks being picked up on drunk and disorderly and spending the rest of the night in the drunk tank.

Because priority one in a bar brawl call is to establish civil order..........which may take a few minutes given that every drunk wants to be heard, and or continue to fight, after the police arrive. It'll take at least 20 minutes to get the crowd scene sorted out to determine who even caused what, if at all.

The odd's are good that if you have already left the scene, you may never come in contact with the police about this incident.  The odd's are better that if you remain on scene, even if you weren't the initial aggressor, you'll be arrested.  Because the primary concern of police responding units is to end the trouble and restore order.  Taking yourself away from the scene removes you from being a problem.

Now, if the other guy is serious injured, i.e. requires more than a few stitches, they might be looking for you.


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