# Kicks Speed vs. Punches Speed



## sturmgewehr

I've opened this thread also in another forum, I have talked and discussed this thread with many other users so I thought I wanted to open this thread here too, this seems like a Nice forum and I would like to get members' opinions on this matter.

So, Punches are obviously Faster when you punch someone to the head but what about Kicks, when you low kick someone or middle kicks, you see many Muay Thai Fighters kick so fast even with high kicks.

Also about the Power, Kicks should generate more power, I don't know how much power can a high kick have but a middle kick and a low kick must have a lot of power.

What do you people think???

Argument 1:



> Punches hit faster because the weight of the limb moving is lower, and the distance from A to B is shorter.




but there is more power behind a kick which pretty much will add up to it's speed, I agree about the distance though.

*What do you think about this ???? Talking about the speed measured.*


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one of those Guy's kick was measured to be 130+ Miles per Hour or 210+ Kilometers per hour, the other guy had 99 Miles per Hour 155+ Kilometers per Hour the other guy had 71 Miles per Hour and the Muay thai guy also had a speed of 125 0r 130 Miles per hour.


Wonder how fast a punch can travel!!!!????


I just found this, I don't know how accurate it is.


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So if that boxer's Punch can accelerate faster than a drag race car that means his speed should be something like 100+ Miles per hour, I was trying to research something about this found some facts that is why I am saying this, I would like to see someone give his own opinion and disprove my claims if I am wrong, so please feel free cuz I am very curious about this.

OK I ran into this Vid where it shows Brandon vera throwing 2 High Kicks, one of those Kicks was delivered at a 1.22 sec and the other was delivered at 1.55 sec, taking into account that Brandon Vera is not even remotely the right person to be tested for kick speed I would say that there are Muay Thai or Kickboxers that can throw a High Kick faster than that, maybe 0.3 sec.


Also from all this I would guess that Low kicks and Middle Kicks MUST be way faster than High Kicks since they have less distance to travel they are easier to throw and you don't have to lift the leg as high as when you throw a HK.


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Check this vid where George St Pierre can kick Faster than he can punch and so do most of kickboxers or ESPECIALLY Nak Muay Thais, the only people that can punch Faster than THEY can kick are boxers cuz of course they can't kick at all.


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That you have to balance yourself before you throw a kick is a bunch of nonsense cuz you can't do that, there is no balance when u throw a kick, u stand in your Muay Thai Stance or Usual Kickboxing stance and u just shoot for a kick and when you throw the kick then you are out of balance since you are in one leg and I don't know if u been following kickboxing or Muay Thai but if u get caught with a punch or push kick while throwing a kick you will be flying like a bag of potatoes.


you don't need to balance yourself when throwing a kick cuz there is no balance once one of your legs is up and thrown with full power to crush bones.


And Yes I have trained Kickboxing before, not a pro but enough, and you don't need to train Kickboxing to know how kickboxing works, if you are careful enough and follow the sport enough u will see how it works.


Maybe High Kicks need to be set a little bit I mean set your balance but Low Kicks don't really need to be set or middle kicks cuz it is easier to throw, the hardest part of throwing a kick is the technique, if you master it you will be throwing kicks very fast and reflexive just like Nak Muay Thais do.


if u ask me I think Nak Muay Thais or Kickboxers can throw low kicks as fast as a boxer can punch if not faster, the leg has bigger muscles uses more energy and in the end the leg has greater impact which usually proves that the Greater the force the kick thrown the greater the power and more speed of course.

Shogun Rua Punches with 25 Mph whereas he kicks with a speed of almost 40 MPH


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I contacted this Physics professor names Rhett Allain Associate Professor
Ph.D., North Carolina State University and I asked him about the speed of a kick and all this sport and Science stuff that has been going on on TV and so on.


this is what I wrote him




> *ME:*
> Greetings professor Allain, I have been searching some random facts about the Science and Physics behind Martial arts, I ran into your blogs and I saw you have some pretty good explanations and you are using formulas to calculate different kicks and stuff like that.
> 
> 
> Mr. Allain I was wondering if you could explain me how the physics behind this work and are those data that those guys form Fight and Science or Sport Science accurate, I mean when they measure the PSI of a kick and punch or the speed of a kick and punch, is the measurement of a kick and punch in those commercial shows accurate or not ?????
> 
> 
> I was interested to know from these videos I am about to post you if you could tell me what is faster in terms of mph and object displacement, so what is faster in terms of MPH a Punch or a Kick and what is faster in terms of second or parts of the second of the limb displacement.
> 
> 
> Kicks seem to be more powerful, more powerful should mean faster since power is gained through acceleration and velocity, isn't it ?
> 
> 
> this are the VIdeos I have been watching and they somehow got me confused:
> 
> 
> YouTube - &#x202a;Fight Science Kick Test (Capoeira, Karate, Muaythai & Taekwondo)&#x202c;&rlm;
> 
> 
> YouTube - &#x202a;On Sports Science, Boxer Vs. Snake, Part 2&#x202c;&rlm;
> 
> 
> YouTube - &#x202a;Sport Science looks at Machida vs Shogun with Brandon Vera&#x202c;&rlm;
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzmUhhB8SmA&feature=player_embedded
> 
> 
> So this is the case, there is this Boxer who used to be some kind of middle weight Champ and they are comparing the speed of his punch with the speed of a snake bite, they said his punch speed was 30 - 35 feet per second which in MPH will be something like 20 - 25 MPH.
> 
> 
> In the videos where they compare kicks of different martial arts they measure kicks with speed of 70 Mp ( slowest one ), and the fastest one was 136 MPH.
> 
> 
> Is this true ???? how accurate is this.
> 
> 
> it seems that a kick is 4 - 5 times faster than a punch.
> 
> 
> Please do some explaining if you have the time for it.
> 
> 
> Thank you in Advance






> *Rhett Allain:*
> Yes, fight science seems to be quite popular.  However, there is a problem.  How exactly do you quantify an impact?  I am not really sure about the best answer.  Fight Science seems to continue to make things up (like the speed of the kick).  However, these are only part of the equation.
> 
> 
> PSI of the kick and stuff like that don't do it either.  If I had to measure one thing, it would be the acceleration of the person getting kicked.  That is the best I can think of.
> 
> 
> *As to the question of the speed.  I think those speeds seem to be realistic as they are easy to measure.*
> 
> 
> Hope that helps a little bit.
> 
> 
> Rhett




So after watching all those videos from fight and Science I got really confused when I saw that the speed of Chad Dawson's punch which was something over 30 feet/sec which in MPH would be something between 20 - 25 mph and the speed of those guys' kicks was 70mph, 100mph and the fastest 135 mph which means a kick is faster than a punch.


I also posted in this thread where they measure Brandon Veras head kick in terms of seconds and his hick kick was measured 1.22 sec, now taking into account that Brandon Vera is not really the adequate guy to be tested for a high kick and high kicks are usually slower than low and middle kicks due to the distance they have to travel.


I guess low and middle kicks are as fast or even faster than punches.

The last emails we exchanged with Professor Rhett Allain:




> *ME:*
> 
> 
> So from what I understand you are saying that the VIdeos I sent where they measured the speed of a Kick above 100 MPH and the speed of a punch somewhere 25 - 30 MPH is true and not biased and measured precisely.
> 
> 
> if the speed of a Kick is 100 MPH that means that the leg is faster than the arm, isn't it???
> 
> 
> I have been talking to many people that watch and some practice Martial Arts and it seems that there is a quite big misconception when it comes to what is faster a Kick or a Punch, most of them say a Punch is faster and when I watched those Videos I saw that a kick seems to be faster.
> 
> 
> How do you define faster??? and is what I said true or not???
> 
> 
> Thank you one more time
> 
> 
> Greetings






> *Rhett Allain:*
> 
> 
> I think it is safe to say that the *foot is faster* than the hand (rather than leg and arm) because if the leg is moving in a circular motion, different parts will be going at different speeds.  The end will be the fastest.  Also, since the leg is longer, it will make the end go faster.
> 
> 
> If you are talking about fast as in speed, then the above should be true (and also pretty easy to measure).  Some people may say a punch is faster.  What they might mean is that it takes a shorter time from start to finish.  However, it goes a shorter distance so that might not mean faster.




about him saying that the foot is faster than the whole leg is true because it was proven with Brandon Vera's kick, when he high kicked with the foot it was faster than when he kicked with his shin.


*So in the end the myth is busted, all people here saying kicks are slow were wrong, besides measuring the speed or a kick is an easy thing with those speedometers or accelerometers they tie around the fighter's leg, Kicks from guys relatively not important in the sport of Muay Thai and generally in the kicking department measured 70 MPH up to 135 MPH, Chad Dwason's punch who is a pretty decent boxer was measured 25 MPH max. *


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## oftheherd1

What are you asking?  Do you want to know the ultimate speed of a punch or kick, or the time from launch to connect?  Or do you think both are important?  Which do you consider most effective in a kick, high or low.  I was taught that Hapkido masters preferred mid to low kicks as they can be delivered faster.  Maybe that answers your question.  You have so much in your question, it gets a little confusing, at least to me.  Maybe others can answer you better.


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## sturmgewehr

First of all thanks for taking your time to respond to my thread 

Basically I wanna know all of that, I have posted my question then I have posted various answers I got to my question.

Kicks in those videos measured in the lab seemed to come in different speed and were faster than the fist or punch in terms of miles per hour.

So basically I wanna know if someone here knows what is faster in terms or Speed, Velocity and acceleration and the FROM LAUNCH TO CONNECT thing.

Can there be used any programs to see how fast is a kick in terms or seconds from Launch to connect.

I think Professor Allain said that Kicks have higher speed, velocity and I think he even said higher acceleration.


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## punisher73

If I have a top of the line radio controlled car and a porsche and have them race 50 feet, the RC can beat the porsche. Is the RC faster? In this test, yes it is. If I change the track to a one mile course which will be faster? The porsche because it can go faster top end speed than the RC car. The RC car reaches it's top end speed faster, but it is slower overall.

Now apply this to your kicks vs. punches question. The punch is "faster" because your fist to his face is a short track and it will accelerate faster and get their faster. Now, the kick may have a higher top end speed because it is using centrifugal force (roundkick) and a long track so it can get higher speeds because of the distance traveled.

Now, get a highly trained puncher and a highly trained kicker and have them stand in their ready position in striking range of the target and have the puncher throw a punch at the target, now have the other person throw a kick at the target, which do you think will get their faster? Now, it gets back to the short track analogy. The punch has faster acceleration so it gets to the target quicker. That is what people usually are referring to, not top end speed.


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## sturmgewehr

But the Kick has Higher Speed.

it travels faster than the fist plus the kick has to travel a longer distance ( when talking about High Kicks ), I believe low kicks are faster than punches due to the short distance they travel, even Middle kicks can be as fast if not faster than punches.


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## mook jong man

Depends on what the style is and the delivery system.
In the Wing Chun arsenal the fastest and most direct kick is the low heel kick to the shin or knee cap , it travels straight from the floor directly to the target with no pre-movement or wasted motion.

Even though it is a very fast kick with a minimum of movement , it still lags behind the speed of a Wing Chun punch.
My late Sifu could punch at the rate of ten punches a second and could chain kick at three different low kicks a second.

Like with Punishers analogy the legs have far more mass and take longer to accelerate than the hands.
There is a reason why Wing Chun mainly relies on the hands , they are always going to be faster , more coordinated and dexterous than the legs.


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## punisher73

sturmgewehr said:


> But the Kick has Higher Speed.
> 
> it travels faster than the fist plus the kick has to travel a longer distance ( when talking about High Kicks ), I believe low kicks are faster than punches due to the short distance they travel, even Middle kicks can be as fast if not faster than punches.



Reread what I wrote again.  The "kick has a higher speed"  so what?  The punch is already there before a kick can get to it's top speed.

Look at "fighting ranges" if you are at the optimal punching range you are closer to the target.  Less distance=faster.  

Let's use ANOTHER analogy...

Traveler A lives 3 miles from his destination and gets there walking in an hour
Traveler B lives 1000 miles from his destination and gets there flying in 2 hours

Who got there first?
Which one was faster?
Which one got there faster?

Even in a low kick there is more distance to travel to be in optimal/effectice range, so the punch will get there quicker to the target.


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## jks9199

Define "speed" or "faster" in this context...  

The definition of speed I use IN MY MARTIAL ARTS CLASS is "how fast the weapon covers the distance to the target."  In that sense, kicks are often slower because they often have more distance to cover to the target.  It's a relative term, however.   (By the way, I qualified where this definition applies for a reason.  In crash reconstruction, we use a different definition of "speed", for example.)

Think about a bicycle or car wheel or old fashioned record.  They all move at a constant number of revolutions per minute at any given moment, right?  In other words -- the whole wheel makes a revolution in the same time, whether that's 45 RPM or 200 RPM.   But... the outside edge is much longer than the inside edge, right?  So... the outside actually turns faster than the inside; it covers more ground in the same amount of time.

One other note on balance...  Kicking requires balance.  If you are not balanced and you don't maintain that standing balance dynamically, when you kick and impact something, you'll fall over.  Imagine firing a shotgun while wearing rollerskates...  In the same way, if you kick willy-nilly, without balance, you'll go down, not your opponent.


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## Cyriacus

Both Punches, and Kicks, can be fast as hell if well trained. But ultimately, a Punch often has a shorter distance to cover, and as such, is technically faster. However, even if a Kick is faster than a punch, it has more distance it needs to cover. 

And Kicks can generate more power, due to rotation and various other physical traits.

The better question should always be which technique is best suited to the situation at hand. If for example, you see an opening for a kick, you dont punch because you think itll be faster.


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## Buka

Speed in striking arts is a favorite subject of mine. Kind of hard to write out, though. 

As for MPH speed, I don't think it's all that important. If a punch/kick starts out slowly, even if it eventually increases to a high MPH, tactically it's useless. It's just too easy to see coming. It's also a very difficult thing to measure or compare strikes in the various arenas in which they reside. I've trained with boxers who had very fast hands. But to measure their speed against Karate men who are also very fast, is difficult to do. The striking is different. Some Wing Chun/JKD guys I've trained with are just blazing fast, but the distance and application of their strikes is different from the boxer and different from the Karateka. There is also the speed of a "counter puncher" to address. Counter punchers can give you fits because their timing speed is usually off the charts. I have no idea what the actual MPH speed of their strikes might be, but they tear you up.

Kicking is another matter. The speed and timing of a front leg kick is obviously different than the speed and timing of a kick from the back leg. And either of them in a combination with punches is different again.

Maybe it would be easier to break down the question to one thing at a time?  (I'm game if you are.)

Heck of a post for a thread opener, though.


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## sturmgewehr

mook jong man said:


> Depends on what the style is and the delivery system.
> In the Wing Chun arsenal the fastest and most direct kick is the low heel kick to the shin or knee cap , it travels straight from the floor directly to the target with no pre-movement or wasted motion.
> 
> Even though it is a very fast kick with a minimum of movement , it still lags behind the speed of a Wing Chun punch.
> My late Sifu could punch at the rate of ten punches a second and could chain kick at three different low kicks a second.
> 
> Like with Punishers analogy the legs have far more mass and take longer to accelerate than the hands.
> There is a reason why Wing Chun mainly relies on the hands , they are always going to be faster , more coordinated and dexterous than the legs.



Depending on the style of course, Usually when talking about kicks people mean Muay Thai, Kyukoshin Karate, Dutch Kickboxing and when talking about Punching of course boxing.

I highly doubt 10 punches per second can do any damage to anyone rather than score points in a competition.




punisher73 said:


> Reread what I wrote again. The "kick has a higher speed" so what? The punch is already there before a kick can get to it's top speed.
> 
> Look at "fighting ranges" if you are at the optimal punching range you are closer to the target. Less distance=faster.
> 
> Let's use ANOTHER analogy...
> 
> Traveler A lives 3 miles from his destination and gets there walking in an hour
> Traveler B lives 1000 miles from his destination and gets there flying in 2 hours
> 
> Who got there first?
> Which one was faster?
> Which one got there faster?
> 
> Even in a low kick there is more distance to travel to be in optimal/effectice range, so the punch will get there quicker to the target.



yeah that is kind of logical of course but when talking about Kicks, low kicks are also close to the target, the lead leg of your opponent with your front leg, middle kicks maybe have longer distance to travel but so do body punches so I  would guess because of the way Higher speed of the Kick to the body the body kick > body punch.

and u also said a punch accelerates faster which I don't think is all that true plus even if it accelerates faster it doesn't mean it is faster than a kick, plus who can accelerate more the kick that has more distance to cover or the punch, in this case the kick can accelerate more since it has more distance to cover, so it seems that a kick is faster in sense of Acceleration and speed ( mph ) and velocity plus speed has very little to do with acceleration and the rest since Speed is a scalar quantity that refers to "how fast an object is moving." Speed can be thought of as the rate at which an object covers distance.

The measured speed of a leg kick in those vids and punches was different, actually very different that I don't think it really matters how fast the punch accelerates since it won't reach the speed of the kick cuz it has very little distance to travel.




jks9199 said:


> Define "speed" or "faster" in this context...





jks9199 said:


> The definition of speed I use IN MY MARTIAL ARTS CLASS is "how fast the weapon covers the distance to the target." In that sense, kicks are often slower because they often have more distance to cover to the target. It's a relative term, however. (By the way, I qualified where this definition applies for a reason. In crash reconstruction, we use a different definition of "speed", for example.)
> 
> *Think about a bicycle or car wheel or old fashioned record. They all move at a constant number of revolutions per minute at any given moment, right? In other words -- the whole wheel makes a revolution in the same time, whether that's 45 RPM or 200 RPM. But... the outside edge is much longer than the inside edge, right? So... the outside actually turns faster than the inside; it covers more ground in the same amount of time.*
> 
> One other note on balance... Kicking requires balance. If you are not balanced and you don't maintain that standing balance dynamically, when you kick and impact something, you'll fall over. Imagine firing a shotgun while wearing rollerskates... In the same way, if you kick willy-nilly, without balance, you'll go down, not your opponent.




So you saying that because the leg is longer it is faster than the hand, that is what Professor Allain said as well.

That bicycle analogy has something to do with the size of the limb???




Cyriacus said:


> Both Punches, and Kicks, can be fast as hell if well trained. But ultimately, a Punch often has a shorter distance to cover, and as such, is technically faster.





Cyriacus said:


> *However, even if a Kick is faster than a punch, it has more distance it needs to cover. *
> 
> And Kicks can generate more power, due to rotation and various other physical traits.
> 
> The better question should always be which technique is best suited to the situation at hand. If for example, you see an opening for a kick, you dont punch because you think itll be faster.




Not all kicks have a long distance to travel, as I have mentioned above a Middle kick to the body or Body shot and a punch to the body pretty much have the same distance to travel and even if the kick has slightly more to travel it will make up because of it's higher speed.




Buka said:


> Speed in striking arts is a favorite subject of mine. Kind of hard to write out, though.





Buka said:


> *1.As for MPH speed, I don't think it's all that important. 2. * *If a punch/kick starts out slowly, even if it eventually increases to a high MPH, tactically it's useless.* It's just too easy to see coming. *3.* *It's also a very difficult thing to measure or compare strikes in the various arenas in which they reside.* I've trained with boxers who had very fast hands. But to measure their speed against Karate men who are also very fast, is difficult to do. *4.* *The striking is different. Some Wing Chun/JKD guys I've trained with are just blazing fast, but the distance and application of their strikes is different from the boxer and different from the Karateka.* There is also the speed of a "counter puncher" to address. Counter punchers can give you fits because their timing speed is usually off the charts. I have no idea what the actual MPH speed of their strikes might be, but they tear you up.
> 
> Kicking is another matter. The speed and timing of a front leg kick is obviously different than the speed and timing of a kick from the back leg. And either of them in a combination with punches is different again.
> 
> Maybe it would be easier to break down the question to one thing at a time? (I'm game if you are.)
> 
> Heck of a post for a thread opener, though.




1. Yes it is and we are discussing it now .

2. not it is not useless cuz the punch won't accelerate that much because of the distance and even if it does it has a very slow speed ( 40 mph max ) compared to a kick measured 135 mph.

3. Professor Allain said it is very easy to measure the speed of a kick since they use speedometers or accelerometers and when I asked him how accurate are those guys from Sport Science with those numbers he said they are pretty accurate.

4. True but usually when talking about Martial arts we would tend to think it is either Dutch Kickboxing, Kyukoshin Karate, Muay Thai and punching from Boxing, Wing Chun and 1000 punches per second doesn't count cuz I highly doubt there is even 20% force behind those all punches accumulated than one left hook from a boxer. So we discussion Muay Thai, Dutch Kickboxing, Kyukoshin Karate ( Kicking ) and Boxing ( Punching ).


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## mook jong man

Ten punches a second is the speed that is achieved after 40 years of training , and the power is penetrating power designed to damage internal organs.
This type of force is not generated by the normal torqueing of the upper body seen in other martial arts , this power is generated from internal muscle control , relaxation and coordinating forward movement in the Wing Chun stance .

There is power in high velocity and relaxation but it must be backed up and supported by a properly developed stance , I don't know why I'm bothering to educate you in this , because you already seem to have your mind made up that boxing , thai boxing , dutch kickboxing and karate have the only methods of generating power.


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## chinto

ok, a punch will take less time to get from stance to target because the distance is shorter and the limb is lighter.... kick is not as fast to target because its larger, heavier and has farther to go.... that is a given.... but mass times velocity squared over two equals force... so mass and muscle make a difference in a punch.. the front kick is intended to be fast and aimed low. to cripple by destroying joints and injuring other vitals... the punch is intended at least in Karate to be fast and powerful and strike vitals.  there is no guarantee any single strike will end the combat and get home to do so when its for real.  Karate and most of the more strait forward arts are aimed at rapid ending of the attack by multiple attackers.  capoara is forced to hide it to keep the original developers from getting hanged as I understand it... it ended up not being as economical in motion, but some of the techniques it would appear use some of that extra motion to add distance to the kicks travel, and there for perhaps a bit more power... I would not choose it though for myself.  others may find it works well for them.  but most martial arts are more about where and how to strike, and how to lock and brake and throw to make that strike that will end it easy to deliver.  in short martial arts are developed for survival, not for sport.


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## sturmgewehr

mook jong man said:


> Ten punches a second is the speed that is achieved after 40 years of training , and the power is penetrating power designed to damage internal organs.
> This type of force is not generated by the normal torqueing of the upper body seen in other martial arts , this power is generated from internal muscle control , relaxation and coordinating forward movement in the Wing Chun stance .
> 
> There is power in high velocity and relaxation but it must be backed up and supported by a properly developed stance , I don't know why I'm bothering to educate you in this , because you already seem to have your mind made up that boxing , thai boxing , dutch kickboxing and karate have the only methods of generating power.



I don't know how Wing Chun works but that is how I see it and that is how I perceive it plus there is no wing chun around here to practice so I am more exposed to Boxing and Kickboxing and I really like both of this sports.

What you say might as well be true and I am sorry for saying something that didn't make sense or was not true by my side, it is simply how I perceive it.

There is nothing more left for me than to thank you for taking your time to give part of your knowledge to me, thanks a lot .


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## Buka

With all due respect to Professor Allain... if he does not spar or fight he does not know squat about kick speed or punch speed.
Again, no disrespect meant, but It would be the same as listening to a food critic who does not actually eat.

And perhaps YOU might think of Martial Arts as Dutch Kickboxing, Kyukoshin Karate, Muay Thai and punching from Boxing" but my view is a bit broader.


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## sturmgewehr

Buka said:


> With all due respect to Professor Allain... if he does not spar or fight he does not know squat about kick speed or punch speed.
> Again, no disrespect meant, but It would be the same as listening to a food critic who does not actually eat.
> 
> And perhaps YOU might think of Martial Arts as Dutch Kickboxing, Kyukoshin Karate, Muay Thai and punching from Boxing" but my view is a bit broader.



You don't need to spar with anyone to know about kick speed, you don't need to go to the moon to know about the moon or u don't even need to be a car maker to know how fast a car goes.

I asked professor Allain which works in North Carolina University if those Clips I have posted from Fight Science and Sport Science are accurate and if the data collected from those videos is accurate, he said that it is relatively easy to measure the speed of a kick and they are accurate even though he had a lot of stuff he didn't agree with Sport Science he still said that the acceleration measured and the speed measured there is accurate since they use accelerometers and speedometers strapped to fighters legs to measure the speed.

I don't know if u saw the clips but that is the case.

In the beginning I though it was ******** that is why I was in a quest for the answer and I ran into professor Allain, I though it was ******** that a punch has a speed of 40 mph and a kick has the speed of 135 mph since I have always thought that a punch is faster than a kick but it wasn't the case.

a Kick is obviously faster than a punch in terms of acceleration, speed and velocity but a punch is faster than a kick in terms of time ( seconds ) since a punch is closer to the body but if an object was the same distance from ur fist and leg then obviously the leg will get there first.

I have trained boxing and Kickboxing since where I come from there i no Wing Chun no Kong fu or anything, I would love to train these arts too and I know for sure 100% they have a lot to offer me as a fighter.

I am here to discuss this topic not to disrespect martial arts, I was just curious if someone knew more about the Physics behind the kick or a punch even though I have read a lot about this.


Greetings


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## sturmgewehr

Any1Else????


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## jks9199

sturmgewehr said:


> Any1Else????


Depends.  To date, you haven't exactly seemed to want discussion so much as agreement.

A foot may indeed move "faster" in raw fps than a hand -- but it may still be "slower" to reach a target.  My hand is much more likely to make contact with an opponent's face than my foot, for a number of reasons mentioned by others.  It may be more of a tie to hit the stomach -- but there's still much more telegraphing for most people when kicking.

As I said before -- define "speed" for your discussion.


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## sturmgewehr

of course I am ready to discuss but I also wanna look at the facts.

You saying a foot may move faster whereas the studies have shown that the foot actually moves faster than the hand, I don't know if u checked the videos I uploaded where they put speedometers on fighters legs to measure the speed of the kick and when they also estimate the speed of that boxers punch with 30 feet/s.

and of course I agreed on the fact that a hand is WAY faster than a foot when u wanna punch someone in the face but then below I also wanted to discuss what happens if u wanna throw a punch to the body and a kick to the body.

I would guess in that case because of the approximately the same distance a foot will be WAY faster to reach the target.


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## Buka

"You don't need to spar with anyone to know about kick speed, you don't need to go to the moon to know about the moon or u don't even need to be a car maker to know how fast a car goes."

Sorry, but, actually, you do need to spar to know about kick/punch speed, you really do. I mean no disrespect by this and I LOVE Fight Science and Sport Science. But if you want to know about swimming you have to get into the water. (Bruce Lee)


----------



## sturmgewehr

Buka said:


> "You don't need to spar with anyone to know about kick speed, you don't need to go to the moon to know about the moon or u don't even need to be a car maker to know how fast a car goes."
> 
> *Sorry, but, actually, you do need to spar to know about kick/punch speed*, you really do. I mean no disrespect by this and I LOVE Fight Science and Sport Science. But if you want to know about swimming you have to get into the water. (Bruce Lee)



No you don't.

There are way more precise devices like Accelerometers and speedometers who collect precise data about the speed and acceleration.

This is not about knowing how to kick, this is not about learning how to kick or executing a kick this is about science and measuring the speed, just because you have been working with something it doesn't mean you can break it down scientifically, there is NO WAY in the world that you could tell the speed of a kick without having a device to measure it.

These people have the devices and they do measure it, these people never claimed to be professionals or boxers they simply measure the speed of the kick, when a police officer catches ur speed doesn't mean he is a car maker or he knows how the car works in details or even how the radar he is holding is made, he is simply measuring the speed, also these people measure the speed of the kick and punch and never claimed they can beat Floyr Mayweather or Petrosyan because they can measure the speed of the kick I mean that is nonsense, they are simply physicians and give us facts about how things work, people that execute the kicks in the videos are professionals while the speedometer measures the speed.

I think u are making this kick thing look like it is rocket science or finding cure for cancer, it is a sport, it is done by training and it is not rocket science and measuring the speed of a kick and punch is RELATIVELY easy.

You seem to ignore the scientific facts and if u do so then there is nothing more left to discuss, if you ignore physics and facts pulled out from a scientific lab then what is there to talk about.

I think u have misunderstood Bruce Lee's statement, Bruce Lee didn't say You have to spar to know the speed of the kick or u have to swim to know the speed u swimming, he says u need to swim to know about swimming but knowing about swimming doesn't really mean that you know how fast u go PRECISELY, for that u need a lab.


----------



## Buka

Maybe we can look at it this way - the tactical purpose of a kick (in Martial Arts) is to strike another human being. Yes? 
So.....let's start with that first video. Do you think that Capoeira kick has a chance to hit you if you have experience in fighting?
Do you think that slow Japanese front kick has a chance to hit you if you have experience in fighting?

As for me "making this thing look like rocket science or finding a cure for cancer"....er, no. Kicking is not that complicated. Defensively - You either get kicked or you don't. Offensively - you can either land some of your kicks or you can't. That Capoeira kick isn't going to hit anyone who has ever seen Capoeira for more than three minutes. That front kick has a far better chance to get in. I realize that does not change the MPH speed of those two kicks measured, but in their tactical application, in the very purpose for which they were designed, there is a large difference.

As for measuring devices, have you ever been subject to any of them? I'm sure they're better now than they once were, but they do have some flaws, especially ones that measure force.

Fighting, kicking, punching does not take place in the lab. And with all due respect I am not trying to "ignore physics and facts pulled out from a scientific lab", I'm just trying to put them in context. I believe the facts and physics are skewed and presented for entertainment purposes and entertainment purposes only. 

As for kicking being faster than punching - ain't gonna happen. At least not to a fighter. Custer had better odds than that.

But, brother, I love your passion! Passion is so important in training.


----------



## poollshark

You're not comparing properly here IMHO. 

You need to declare a target to do this properly, again IMHO.

Target A, the head. Which strike will get there first?

Target B, the Knee. Which strike will get there first?

Get it? It's not just about top speed, it's about total elapsed time from the moment you begin your strike to impact.

Top overall max speed, the kick. However if you're standing 2 feet in front of me and i want to hit you in the nose which strike would be *quickest* to impact?
So although the kick has a faster top speed it is not always *quickest* to the target.


----------



## jks9199

Again, it comes down to definitions of "speed."  

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that in feet-per-second (fps) or whatever units you want to use, a kick can travel faster than a punch.

But that's not really a meaningful measurement for the useful application of a punch versus a kick.  That's what I was trying to point out when I mentioned the record or wheel.  The outside edge moves faster in fps than the inner edge -- but they both move the same rate in revolutions per second, which is the meaningful measure for that purpose.  For a punch or kick, I don't care which moves faster in fps.  I care about which will cover the distance to the desired target most effectively.  Again -- "speed", for my purposes in fighting, is defined as "covering the distance to the desired target."


----------



## Flying Crane

OK, it is possible for a foot to move "faster" in some measurable way, than a hand.  

Now... So What?  Is there a point to all this?


----------



## sturmgewehr

jks9199 said:


> Again, it comes down to definitions of "speed."
> 
> I don't think anyone is disagreeing that in feet-per-second (fps) or whatever units you want to use, a kick can travel faster than a punch.
> 
> But that's not really a meaningful measurement for the useful application of a punch versus a kick.  That's what I was trying to point out when I mentioned the record or wheel.  The outside edge moves faster in fps than the inner edge -- but they both move the same rate in revolutions per second, which is the meaningful measure for that purpose.  For a punch or kick, I don't care which moves faster in fps.  I care about which will cover the distance to the desired target most effectively.  Again -- "speed", for my purposes in fighting, is defined as "covering the distance to the desired target."



nicely said, I agree.




Flying Crane said:


> OK, it is possible for a foot to move "faster" in some measurable way, than a hand.
> 
> Now... So What? Is there a point to all this?



yes there is, too bad you don't see it, the point is simple, we were discussing the speed of the punch and kick and it seems that you don't really carer about this, the I DON"T CARE attitude can be applied everywhere.

Someone could die and you would say SO WHAT?>?? is there a point. well depends if the person is related to u and you cared anbout him then of course there would be a point but if the person was someone that u didn't know then you could easily say SO WHAT??? thousands die every day should I be worried about that.


----------



## sturmgewehr

poollshark said:


> You're not comparing properly here IMHO.
> 
> You need to declare a target to do this properly, again IMHO.
> 
> Target A, the head. Which strike will get there first?
> 
> Target B, the Knee. Which strike will get there first?
> 
> Get it? It's not just about top speed, it's about total elapsed time from the moment you begin your strike to impact.
> 
> Top overall max speed, the kick. However if you're standing 2 feet in front of me and i want to hit you in the nose which strike would be *quickest* to impact?
> So although the kick has a faster top speed it is not always *quickest* to the target.



this is what I was thinking too, depends what you want to target, if u target the knee then u will kick if u target the head u will punch for sure.


----------



## backyardkempo.com

Here is some food for thought on this, when comparing the punch of the boxer to the capoeira kick given in the example videos.

The capoeira technique is a circular technique that generates the impressive speed by using centrifugal force.  The technique utilizes 2 circles. The length of the body from shoulder to foot is the radius of the 1st circle used - making the circle as large as possible which is what allows for such a high speed at the circumference (where the foot is).  The second circle uses a radius from the knee to the foot - this creates a whip like motion maximizing the final speed.

The boxer's jab is more of a "linear" technique.

Let's try to understand the distances in the techniques.

In watching the capoeira kick in the video, it seems the technique starts with the practitioners body perpendicular to the target and his foot 180 degrees.  If we assume that it is 5 feet from his shoulder to the striking area of the foot and it is 2 feet from the knee to the foot's striking area.  That means the foot would travel 14.13 feet by my calculations. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.  Understand that 5 feet is the radius of the larger circle and 2 feet is the radius of the smaller circle in the technique.  That means the diameters are 10 feet and 4 feet respectively.  So Circumference is 31.4 feet for the larger circle and 12.56 feet for the smaller.  The foot travels 180 degrees on the smaller circle or 1/2 or 6.28 feet.  The foot also travel 90 degrees on the larger or 1/4 or 7.85 feet.  Total distance traveled again is 14.13 feet.  The foot's speed is 136 MPH or 199.47 Feet per Second.  Impressive but the technique will take about .07 seconds from when he shifts from the crouch and plants his hand on the floor.

To be fair though we need to track boxer's jab's distance from when planted his lead leg because the capoeira kick distance is calculated after he has crouched and then placed his hand on the ground.  For the boxer then that would leave the fist approximately 6" from the target.  At 30 feet per second the punch only takes about .017 seconds meaning that the punch meets its target over 5 hundredths of a second faster.

What the videos prove is something anyone who takes martial arts longer than 6 months should understand.  You don't want someone to kick you - because it is a larger mass than the arms plus greater acceleration on impact so more potential damage.  What is not addressed is actual time needed for the technique or time needed to set up the technique.  This is actually clearer when you watch the section of the boxer video when he punched 26 times in 5 seconds.  There is no kick that can have that quick of a set up and recovery to execute at that rate except for Liu Kang's signature bicycle kick.


----------



## Cyriacus

backyardkempo.com said:


> _There is no kick that can have that quick of a set up and recovery to execute at that rate except for Liu Kang's signature bicycle kick._


Leading Leg Instep Kick? More commonly called a Front Leg Round Kick 
After the initial contact, you rechamber the leg, and kick again. And you can keep that up for as long as your quads can deal with it.
Naturally, someone might be thinking about whether that was practical - The Boxer was against a stationary defenceless target who let him hit it a set number of times.

But this isnt about situational practicality. A Kick is faster than a Punch once it starts moving, a Punch can have a shorter distance to travel; Albeit a Low Kick or Mid Kick can hit as quickly as a punch.

Set up and recovery is a factor, of course. But, with just about any Kick (Well, not any. NOT at ALL.) Set up is fast. Recovery is fast. Transitioning to another Kick is what can be slower, if its immediate.


----------



## backyardkempo.com

Cyriacus said:


> Leading Leg Instep Kick? More commonly called a Front Leg Round Kick
> After the initial contact, you rechamber the leg, and kick again. And you can keep that up for as long as your quads can deal with it.
> Naturally, someone might be thinking about whether that was practical - The Boxer was against a stationary defenceless target who let him hit it a set number of times.


Ok.  But not at a rate of 26 kicks in 5 seconds probably at most half that rate.  The boxer was working with 2 hands to get the 26 punches in 5 seconds what you describe is repeating with the same leg.  My guess would be that most Martial Artists would struggle to do repetitive roundhouses to a target (not in the air) at a rate of 10 kicks in 5 seconds.
Take a look at this video of French Kickboxer Jerome Le Banner.




Here's a pro fighter doing a same leg repetitive mid level roundhouse kick at a rate of 5 kicks in 3 seconds, hands and feet working furiously to do so.  This is a rate of 1.67 kicks per second.  Much slower than the boxer's rate of 5.2 punches per second.  If we extend Jerome's rate to 5 seconds he would only have 8 kicks.  Now we could debate which is worse 8 kicks to the ribs from a K1 Fighter or 26 punches to the head from a Light Heavyweight World Champion Boxer (my vote would be to protect the head) but it is clear in this case that the hand technique is delivered significantly faster than the foot - even with a mid level technique.

You have to bear in mind that even with a low lead leg round house the foot is traveling 6 to 8 feet to hit its target (say the opponents lead leg).  Let's say you have 70 MPH lead leg roundhouse, it would still take .078 seconds for the kick to hit.

Low lead leg front kick would be the shortest distance kick at around 2 feet from ground to the opponents shin but I would guess that the speed of this kick is closer to hand speed since it is more "linear" and doesn't utilize centrifugal force.  We can use 40 MPH for arguments sake and make it about 10MPH faster than the boxer's jab.  Still the low lead leg front kick would take .034 seconds to hit.  Fastest kick so far but still double the time it takes to throw the jab.

My money is on the hand techniques reaching high & middle targets faster and kicks reaching low targets faster.


----------



## Cyriacus

backyardkempo.com said:


> Ok.  But not at a rate of 26 kicks in 5 seconds probably at most half that rate.  The boxer was working with 2 hands to get the 26 punches in 5 seconds what you describe is repeating with the same leg.  My guess would be that most Martial Artists would struggle to do repetitive roundhouses to a target (not in the air) at a rate of 10 kicks in 5 seconds.
> Take a look at this video of French Kickboxer Jerome Le Banner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a pro fighter doing a same leg repetitive mid level roundhouse kick at a rate of 5 kicks in 3 seconds, hands and feet working furiously to do so.  This is a rate of 1.67 kicks per second.  Much slower than the boxer's rate of 5.2 punches per second.  If we extend Jerome's rate to 5 seconds he would only have 8 kicks.  Now we could debate which is worse 8 kicks to the ribs from a K1 Fighter or 26 punches to the head from a Light Heavyweight World Champion Boxer (my vote would be to protect the head) but it is clear in this case that the hand technique is delivered significantly faster than the foot - even with a mid level technique.
> 
> You have to bear in mind that even with a low lead leg round house the foot is traveling 6 to 8 feet to hit its target (say the opponents lead leg).  Let's say you have 70 MPH lead leg roundhouse, it would still take .078 seconds for the kick to hit.
> 
> Low lead leg front kick would be the shortest distance kick at around 2 feet from ground to the opponents shin but I would guess that the speed of this kick is closer to hand speed since it is more "linear" and doesn't utilize centrifugal force.  We can use 40 MPH for arguments sake and make it about 10MPH faster than the boxer's jab.  Still the low lead leg front kick would take .034 seconds to hit.  Fastest kick so far but still double the time it takes to throw the jab.
> 
> My money is on the hand techniques reaching high & middle targets faster and kicks reaching low targets faster.






 -- 45 seconds to 47 seconds - Someone could probably keep that up a while longer.


----------



## sturmgewehr

backyardkempo.com said:


> Ok.  But not at a rate of 26 kicks in 5 seconds probably at most half that rate.  The boxer was working with 2 hands to get the 26 punches in 5 seconds what you describe is repeating with the same leg.  My guess would be that most Martial Artists would struggle to do repetitive roundhouses to a target (not in the air) at a rate of 10 kicks in 5 seconds.
> Take a look at this video of French Kickboxer Jerome Le Banner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a pro fighter doing a same leg repetitive mid level roundhouse kick at a rate of 5 kicks in 3 seconds, hands and feet working furiously to do so.  This is a rate of 1.67 kicks per second.  Much slower than the boxer's rate of 5.2 punches per second.  If we extend Jerome's rate to 5 seconds he would only have 8 kicks.  Now we could debate which is worse 8 kicks to the ribs from a K1 Fighter or 26 punches to the head from a Light Heavyweight World Champion Boxer (my vote would be to protect the head) but it is clear in this case that the hand technique is delivered significantly faster than the foot - even with a mid level technique.
> 
> You have to bear in mind that even with a low lead leg round house the foot is traveling 6 to 8 feet to hit its target (say the opponents lead leg).  Let's say you have 70 MPH lead leg roundhouse, it would still take .078 seconds for the kick to hit.
> 
> Low lead leg front kick would be the shortest distance kick at around 2 feet from ground to the opponents shin but I would guess that the speed of this kick is closer to hand speed since it is more "linear" and doesn't utilize centrifugal force.  We can use 40 MPH for arguments sake and make it about 10MPH faster than the boxer's jab.  Still the low lead leg front kick would take .034 seconds to hit.  Fastest kick so far but still double the time it takes to throw the jab.
> 
> My money is on the hand techniques reaching high & middle targets faster and kicks reaching low targets faster.



What about Senchai ??


----------



## backyardkempo.com

sturmgewehr said:


> What about Senchai ??



What's your point?

50 Kicks in 22 seconds is very impressive.  That's a rate of 2.27 kicks per seconds - not quite half the boxer's speed of 5.2 kicks per second.  If we set Senchai's rate to 5 seconds then he only would deliver 11 kicks - not even close to the boxer's 26.

What was my guess about 4 or so posts earlier?



backyardkempo.com said:


> Ok. But not at a rate of 26 kicks in 5 seconds probably at most half that rate. The boxer was working with 2 hands to get the 26 punches in 5 seconds what you describe is repeating with the same leg. My guess would be that most Martial Artists would struggle to do repetitive roundhouses to a target (not in the air) at a rate of 10 kicks in 5 seconds.



There are 2 examples of elite fighters kicking as fast as they can.  
1.  Jerome Le Banner - A 265 lb. K1 Kickboxer who delivered at a rate of 8 kicks in 5 seconds.
2.  Senchai Sor Kingstar - A 130 lb. Muay Thai Fighter who delvered at a rate of 11 kicks in 5 seconds.

I think I made a pretty good guess.


----------



## sturmgewehr

backyardkempo.com said:


> What's your point?



My point is that even though a Kick like that ( middle kick ) has to travel 3 times the distance of Middle Weight CHAD DAWSON's it still was fast like lightning, u rarely see someone kick and cock his leg like that and kick again, that is more than impressive.

You were comparing the kicking speed of JLB who is a Heavyweight with Chad Dawson who was a former Middle weight title holder, not a good comparison if u ask me, whereas I posted u a guy who is approximately the same weight with the boxer that punched in that clip.

&#8203;





backyardkempo.com said:


> 50 Kicks in 22 seconds is very impressive. That's a rate of 2.27 kicks per seconds - not quite half the boxer's speed of 5.2 kicks per second. If we set Senchai's rate to 5 seconds then he only would deliver 11 kicks - not even close to the boxer's 26.



As I said it is more than Impressive, and yes that is 2.27 kicks per second, and keep in mind boxers 5.2 per second includes both of his hands if u divide 5.2 kicks per second by 2 hands it will be 2.6 which is approximately the same speed as Senchai's kicks plus KEEP IN MIND that Senchai's kick had to travel at least 3 times the distance of Chad Dwason's Punch and still made it 2.27 kicks per second which further proves my point that a kick is WAY faster than a punch in sense of SPEED, VELOCITY and god knows I contacted Professor Allain he said he is not sure about Acceleration but a kick MIGHT have a bigger acceleration at the point of impact.

&#8203;





backyardkempo.com said:


> What was my guess about 4 or so posts earlier?
> 
> There are 2 examples of elite fighters kicking as fast as they can.
> 1. Jerome Le Banner - A 265 lb. K1 Kickboxer who delivered at a rate of 8 kicks in 5 seconds.
> 2. Senchai Sor Kingstar - A 130 lb. Muay Thai Fighter who delvered at a rate of 11 kicks in 5 seconds.
> 
> I think I made a pretty good guess.



Ur guess was OK I just thought u made the wrong comparison when comparing Chad Dwason's Punches with JLB's Kicks cuz JLB is at least 2 weight classes higher than CD.


----------



## sturmgewehr

So this is it??? no one really has any facts to present.


----------



## Cyriacus

sturmgewehr said:


> So this is it??? no one really has any facts to present.


Plenty of facts have been presented.
There is no single answer, because some people can Kick fast as hell, and others can Punch as fast. It comes down to People, not the actual Techniques.
There are to Facts TO Present, besides the Fact that Answers Will Vary.


----------



## Buka

sturmgewehr said:


> So this is it??? no one really has any facts to present.



Who needs facts, we got you, brother.


----------



## Josh Oakley

I would like to add that which is faster also depends on the target. A punch to the head will likely be faster than a likely be faster than a kick to the head. A kick to the stomach may be faster than a punch, depending on distance and position. A kick to the legs will likely be faster than a punch to the legs.


----------



## sturmgewehr

Buka said:


> Who needs facts, we got you, brother.



I would assume that you are being ironical but when discussing something it is very important that we present different facts and argument from different sources so we make it more reliable in order to come to a conclusion, I have presented a couple of facts and scientific measurements made in the lab and I came here to discuss, I am not here to troll or whatever.




Josh Oakley said:


> I would like to add that which is faster also depends on the target. A punch to the head will likely be faster than a likely be faster than a kick to the head. A kick to the stomach may be faster than a punch, depending on distance and position. A kick to the legs will likely be faster than a punch to the legs.



yes and I also had a discussion with a guy form another forum, I will post it here so you can all read it.

he made some very good points.


----------



## sturmgewehr

xxxx said:
			
		

> You're comparing speeds from two different fighters in two different weight classes.
> 
> 
> Saying that, wasn't there a test done that determined *Ali's punch being faster then human reaction time?* I swear I've seen it, I'll see if I can find an article.




Lol that is a paradox.


that is like saying Waking up before waking up.


Faster than the average reaction time of a normal human being that sits in front of the TV and drinks beer.


Plus being able to react faster than a normal human reaction time doesn't mean the punch is faster, legs are usually able to react faster, the 100 meters sprinters have the fastest reaction.


Even if the Legs don't react the fastest still they are faster, the fact that a rabbit can react faster than a Leopard doesn't mean that he is faster than the Leopard, or the fastest reaction time of a living being is that of a Fly I think house fly still the house fly is not faster than the Leopard.


A blink is probably the fastest human reaction - maybe 1/10 of a second.


Fingertip Reaction Time


*In the Olympic 100 m final, Bolt broke new ground, winning in 9.69 s (unofficially 9.683 s) with a reaction time of 0.165 s.*


Taking into account that Bolt reacts with his legs with are way bigger than arms and for something 4 times bigger than an Arm Reacting in 0.16 is very fast.


Average Human reaction time is 0.2 it says it is somewhere between 0.15 to 0.3 sec so I take it in the middle someone can react in 0.15 someone in 0.3, 0.2 would be the average human reaction time.


Let's say Muhammed Ali or the fastest Boxer can punch 0.1, there is no way someone to react as fast as that since ur nervous system needs time to react and I read somewhere that it is impossible to react faster than 0.1.


Flies react 0.04 and that is the fastest creature that can react to a situation.


Still I think if we had something to measure that a low kick would be as fast or a kick to the inner thigh by Senchai would be as fast 0.1.


that still doesn't mean that a punch is faster than a kick, as I said Flies are the living beings that react the fastest but they are not faster than the Leopard.


also Look at the videos I posted where they measured those Kickboxer's kick speed who were same weight of Chad Dwason's and see CD punch speed who was kind of a Jab/Straight punch.




			
				yyyy said:
			
		

> That's a flawed analysis.
> 
> Saenchai fights at 130 lbs. Dawson fights at light heavyweight.
> 
> A better analysis would be if you compared Saenchai to Amir Khan, a 140 lb boxer, who threw 400 uppercuts in 60 seconds (that's an average of 6.67 punches a second). And, for the record, those were uppercuts not jabs/crosses which go in a straight line.




We don't have to Compare Senchai to Amir khan.


Go back and check *this video*, these guys are the same weight as Chad Dwason's weight and they still kicked way faster than Chad Dwasons Jab with 30 ft/s which is something between 20 - 30 MPH where the slowest kick was measured 70 mph.


Prove me Amir Khan threw 400 Uppercuts  in 60 Seconds.


let's see it, I am not saying it didn't happen I just wanna see it.


plus even if he did the Uppercut same as the jab has at least 2 times shorter distance to travel than Senchai's Middle kick.


The Distance from Khan's guard to the head is 2 times at least shorter than the distance from Senchai's leg where it had to travel from the ground in arch motion like the uppercut to the guys abdomen.


50 Kicks in 22 seconds = 136 Kicks in 60 Seconds taking into account that the distance that the kick has to travel 2 - 3 times more u will get the result.


Plus I bet u 100% that Amir Khan used his both Hands to Throw those 400 Uppercuts whereas Senchai used only one leg, so 136 Kicks in 60 Seconds with one leg 400 Punches with 2 hands divided by 2 makes 200 Punches in 60 sec which means 3.3 Punches in a Second with only one hand whereas Senchai's rate would be 2.27 Kicks per second still way faster than Khans Uppercut who had to travel AT LEAST 2 - 3 times shorter distance than Senchai's Kick.


Let me see Amir Khan's video or a pic to see what is his punchind distance compared to Senchai's kicking distance and we will make an approximate calculation.


Plus Kicks don't work like Punches in Bunches, kicks work one by one and there is no one that will throw too many kicks at once, so that round house kick to the mid section Senchai was throwing is Faster than Amir Khan's Upper cuts.


Chad Dwason's Jab was at most 30 Mph whereas that Karate guys front kick was 70 mph. I think they were both approximately the same weight.




			
				yyyy said:
			
		

> In general, kicks tend to be slower due to:
> 
> 
> - larger distance to travel
> - the fact that they have to travel in a roundhouse fashion (as opposed to a linear motion)




you make no sense, you saying the measured 130 Miles of the Muay Thai Kickboxer are slower than Chad Dwasons 30 Mph ????


not quite the case.


if a car traveling 2 miles with the speed of 30 miles per hour got faster to the target than a car traveling 130 mph a distance of 40 miles doesn't mean that the first car is faster it just means it has less distance to travel that is why it got there first otherwise the second car is faster as u can see the numbers.


a Kick is more powerful there is more power behind it which will make it travel faster and it has a longer distance to go which will get the chance to accelerate more, simple physics.


Plus I don't have to prove this, measurements prove it, they used speedometers and accelerometers to measure the speed of the kick.




			
				yyyy said:
			
		

> There are exceptions (such as buakaw etc) who have honed their kicks to the point where they rival the punch speed of some fighters, but, overall, punches tend to be slightly faster.




So Buakaw can kick faster than Senchai ??? that is funny.



			
				zzzz said:
			
		

> I think you also have to look at distancing. If both fighters are standing right outside of the rim, the kick is going to be faster because it's already within range where as the puncher has to make a step forward as he throws the punch to be able to get to his range.
> 
> 
> There's so many variables.


----------



## sturmgewehr

yyyy said:
			
		

> You're trying to prove that kicks are faster than punches in a scientific way but you're method is simply incorrect. There are too many variables that you're not accounting for.
> 
> Put it this way:
> 
> Lets say we cloned Saenchai. We would have two subjects that weigh the same, have the same level of athleticism, same technique, etc.
> 
> 
> If you make them stand in their fighting stances and tell the first subject to throw a kick (lets say a low kick) and tell the second subject to throw a punch (lets say a right cross), and both fighters start to throw their technique AT THE SAME TIME, the cross will land first.




of course that is because the punch compared to the low kick will have 2 times less distance to travel, even though I tend to think when watching fights that low kicks to the shin and inside thigh low kicks seem to be faster than punches.




			
				yyyy said:
			
		

> You're getting caught up in the "how many mph does the kick/punch travel" when, in reality, as mentioned earlier, those punches/kicks are being thrown in a rhythm and thus those figures aren't completely accurate.




So was Chad Dwason in a Rhythm when throwing 26 punches in 5 seconds and so what Amir Khan when Throwing those uppercuts in a rhythm.


That doesn't have to mean much cuz in Chad Dwason's case where he threw a SINGLE jab/straight his speed was measured 30 mph let's say 35 mph since I was reading that Speedometers and accelerometers have a error coefficient of 5 mph+-


Still in *this Video* where those guys' kicks are measured they didn't throw the kicks in Rhythem, they threw single kicks just like Chad Dwason did in *this video* where he threw 1 single punch where it was measured to be 30 something ft/second and then again they made him throw a barrage of punches but lets say that doesn't count since they were rhythmic, still even when they threw single strikes Kickboxers kicks were measured to have a WAY higher speed than Chad Dwason's Punch and these guys are pretty much the same weight.




			
				yyyy said:
			
		

> *You're trying to convince people that just because the karate guy's kick goes at 70 mph and the MT guy's kick goes at 130 mph, it proves that kicks land faster than punches. This is wrong. The higher speed of the kicks justifies and explains why the kicks are more powerful than punches. It DOES NOT mean that they will land faster than a punch.* Instead of digging up examples of sports science shows and kickboxers hitting dummies/pads, why don't you look up examples of when a kickboxer's kick landed before another kickboxer's punches (in a fight).




I agree with the Red Part, that is true.


Usually when a middle kick is thrown or a low kick is thrown it is fast and it is not very common to see the other guy countering him immediately even if he tries still the kick has a longer reach and in order the other guy to land the punch he needs to step in and by that time the Kickboxer steps out, I have trained kickboxing and we trained that when throwing low kicks or middle kicks we were supposed to move to the left and back so we don't get countered, of course someone really fast will counter u but usually when Kickboxers throw a kick they move a step back to the left so we don't get countered.








			
				yyyy said:
			
		

> Take this gif for example:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alves and Howard represent two fighters with similar levels of athleticism, same weight, etc. Howard threw the kick and Alves reacted by throwing the right cross. Despite the fact that Howard's kick started first, Alves' right cross still managed to land before the kick.




That is because Alves is a way better fighter than Haward, can't compare Alves to Haward, a good example would be parts taken from fights like Rampage vs Rashad or Machida vs Shogun, Alves and Haward is not an adequate example, plus howard is not known for his flashy kicks, much more like Alves is the better kicker in that match, I believe Alves to have better kicks than Howard and I know Alves is more talented and a better fighter than Haward.







			
				yyyy said:
			
		

> You misunderstood me. I'm not saying that a punch accelerates faster than a punch. I'm just saying that a kick is slower in arriving to its target than a punch is.




yeah I agree due to the kick having more distance to travel.




			
				yyyy said:
			
		

> A kick may have a faster absolute speed than a punch, but that does not mean that the kick will land first. Who do you think will win a race: a guy who only runs at 5 mph but is 10 feet away from the finish line, or a guy who runs at 10 mph but is 50 feet away from the finish line? The punch has a shorter distance to travel and thus usually lands first.




I think I gave a similar example to this.




			
				yyyy said:
			
		

> Again, you're assuming that Dawson is equal to the kickboxing guys just because they "are the same weight".




Dwason in the boxing world is 10 times more relevant than that guy who threw the 130 miles per hour Muay Thai Kick, who the hell is that guy, no one knows him.


Dwason in the Boxing world is way more relevant than Levi Kurtovich who is a no one in the world of Muay Thai, now imagine how fast would throw someone more relevant in the world of Muay Thai.


And I think they are the same weight if not the Kickboxers weighting more. I read somewhere Levi Kurtovich weights 170 pounds.




			
				yyyy said:
			
		

> Mike Tyson and David Tua were approximately the same weight and yet there was a vast difference in their level of athleticism. Dawson was never particularly fast or athletic. As Snubnoze pointed out above, there's too many variables involved for me or you to simply use these sports science clips. I could put Manny Pacquiao (at 145 lbs) on that show and have him go up against a Leonard Garcia and claim that "oh, Pacquiao's punch went faster than Garcia's kick). It would be a flawed analysis on account of the disparity in their levels of athleticism.




That is true, and Levi Kurtovich in comparison to Chad Dwason who was the former WBC, IBF & IBO light heavyweight champion and is still 29 years old, pretty young, is a no one in the world of Muay Thai and still managed to Kick faster than Dwasons punch ( in terms of Speed, velocity and acceleration ).




			
				yyyy said:
			
		

> Here's the vid of Khan throwing those uppercuts:
> Kammy Do It? Boxing | Sky Sports | Video | Boxing
> Yes, he's using both hands, and yes, he has a shorter distance to travel but that's the entire point. A punch will land faster than a kick for that very reason.




Impressive 




			
				yyyy said:
			
		

> When the hell did I say that Buakaw kicks faster than Senchai?




Maybe I got you wrong and you should have been more precise about what you said.


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## jks9199

You seem rather obsessed with numbers and lab experiments.  I don't think anybody has said that a kick can't move "faster" than a punch, in terms of feet/second or other similar measures.  But that's not really a meaningful measure.  You don't seem to be understanding that.

A kick requires much more body motion, more complex logistics to deliver successfully.  Watch an MMA or kickboxing match.  Except for thigh kicks, thrown at medium to close range, most of the kicks don't seem to land, do they?  It amazes me how so many fighters seem to simply fling a leg up, hoping to land, rather than use a strategy to set up that kick.  Many people can't throw an effective kick from medium to close range, as well.  (Again, that thigh kick is an exception.)  Look at how often a jab lands compared to a front kick...  So, even though that front kick may indeed be "faster" than the jab -- effectively, it's not.

Let me try another analogy.  The SR-71 Blackbird was many times faster than any other aircraft in the sky.  (We still don't openly know it's top speed; without opening it up all the way, the final flight set records for flying from the West Coast to the East Coast.)  And, for its jobs, it was fantastic.  Unrivaled.  The B-2 Spirit Stealth Bomber is much, much slower... but it can get in, and drop a bomb.  Each had a place, but that didn't make one "better" than the other except if you defined the task.  Kicks and punches each have their place and each is a great tool -- but that doesn't make one better than the other.


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## Zenjael

It would seem to me that the higher you kick, the more gravity you have to fight. No matter what you do, the physics mandates that no matter where you generate the power from, the higher it is the more energy it will require to lift it.

That being said, this doesn't mean high kicks are weak. Even going a fraction of what I am capable of can cause the person's head to rock. If you don't have enough control, this could easily cause a concussion.



> That you have to balance yourself before you throw a kick is a bunch of  nonsense cuz you can't do that, there is no balance when u throw a kick,  u stand in your Muay Thai Stance or Usual Kickboxing stance and u just  shoot for a kick and when you throw the kick then you are out of balance  since you are in one leg and I don't know if u been following  kickboxing or Muay Thai but if u get caught with a punch or push kick  while throwing a kick you will be flying like a bag of potatoes.



I disagree wholeheartedly. Even when you launch a kick, balance is required. I suppose you've never seen it happen, but some people overthrow a kick with force, and do not have the strength in the leg, or balance, to remain rooted and so end up throwing themselves along with the kick. It's rare, but it happens.

Balance occurs, and is required, at all points. But... with the execution of the technique, the shifting force through your body should cause the center of gravity to maintain itself. I've never tried it, and only now am just thinking about it, but I have never attempted to shift my center of gravity as I executed a technique. I am not even sure I can, to be honest.

Kicks to the middle of the body are the strongest, but there's not much to hit to be honest. I favor low or high kicks. Maybe 2/5ths of the time I'll do a mid level kick. What can I say, I'm a headhunter.

My question is if it is possible to do a front kick, or snap kick, in .5 of a second.


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## Touch Of Death

Zenjael said:


> It would seem to me that the higher you kick, the more gravity you have to fight. No matter what you do, the physics mandates that no matter where you generate the power from, the higher it is the more energy it will require to lift it.
> 
> That being said, this doesn't mean high kicks are weak. Even going a fraction of what I am capable of can cause the person's head to rock. If you don't have enough control, this could easily cause a concussion.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree wholeheartedly. Even when you launch a kick, balance is required. I suppose you've never seen it happen, but some people overthrow a kick with force, and do not have the strength in the leg, or balance, to remain rooted and so end up throwing themselves along with the kick. It's rare, but it happens.
> 
> Balance occurs, and is required, at all points. But... with the execution of the technique, the shifting force through your body should cause the center of gravity to maintain itself. I've never tried it, and only now am just thinking about it, but I have never attempted to shift my center of gravity as I executed a technique. I am not even sure I can, to be honest.
> 
> Kicks to the middle of the body are the strongest, but there's not much to hit to be honest. I favor low or high kicks. Maybe 2/5ths of the time I'll do a mid level kick. What can I say, I'm a headhunter.
> 
> My question is if it is possible to do a front kick, or snap kick, in .5 of a second.


I haven't read anything else on this thread, but I would say you want to commit your body into a kick, as you would commit to any step-through. You can't counter-balance your way through life. LOL "To hit, you must commit!"


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## Cyriacus

Unless He means like that, in which case, its just a different idealogy. As weird as I consider it to be


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## Touch Of Death

Cyriacus said:


> Unless He means like that, in which case, its just a different idealogy. As weird as I consider it to be


I hate Bob's because they fall down when I hit them.


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## Cyriacus

Touch Of Death said:


> I hate Bob's because they fall down when I hit them.



I remember being at a Gym once, and They had this Bob, just sitting there. So I just had to try it.
I essentially just stood with My feet parallel, and jammed out a punch, with no body rotation or anything. Just, Elbow Extention powered Punch. Other hand hanging relaxedly by My side.
The thing slowly fell back, and then dropped down, like it lost its balance and slipped, in slow motion.

I mean, in hindsight, it was more the push than the punch. And a bit of dumb luck.
But I just cant take the things seriously enough to every use one again


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## fightscience

Go to www.partingtheclouds.com it provides a listing of kicking and punching speeds and also the maximum force of impact that can be expected.
The data is taken from the book "Parting the Clouds - The Science of the Martial Arts" which has very good reviews in Amazon.
Hope this helps


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