# Fat



## JourneymanDave (Jun 4, 2009)

I was watching the Reno 911 movie a while ago and a particular line stood out for me: "I'm not chubby, its protective karate fat!" 
It made me laugh, but I also thought about it. I know alot of MMA fighters are ripped up to make weight and also its better conditioning as you would lighter and presumably quicker, but if one is in good shape and not morbidly obese anything, it doesn't really seem like it would be too horrible.  It could provide some protection from body blows, and, God forbid, a few inches of protection from a mortal wound if attacked with a knife.  There are a good deal of martial artists who do really well, even if they are a bit chubby (Sammo Hung comes to mind)

This is not, however, an excuse to skimp out on conditioning. 
at all.

Thoughts? Opinions?


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## David43515 (Jun 4, 2009)

Professional fighters do so much conditioning because they need the stamina, and because they want to be in the lowest weight class they can as far as weight/strength ratios go. 
      I`m a fat bastid, no doubt about it. But I`ve also found I hit harder with a few more pounds on my frame than I do without it. I also absorb shots easier with less grief than my skinny cohorts. I don`t have the best set of lungs in class, I start sweating and puffing long before most. But I still have better wind than guys half my age who think they can smoke two packs a day just because they have wash board abs.
      If you can get a six-pack, more power to you. But I fight better with a keg.


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## Seth T. (Jun 4, 2009)

It seems that Roman Gladiators liked to pack on some protective flab: http://www.archaeology.org/0811/abstracts/gladiator.html 

I'm no Roman Gladiator though, so I am working hard to shed my mine. I want more stamina.


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## theletch1 (Jun 4, 2009)

Seth T. said:


> It seems that Roman Gladiators liked to pack on some protective flab: http://www.archaeology.org/0811/abstracts/gladiator.html
> 
> I'm no Roman Gladiator though, so I am working hard to shed my mine. I want more stamina.


You beat me to it, Seth.  I remember seeing a show on the History channel dealing with just this thing.  'Course I think there is certainly a difference between being "fat" and not being a body builder type as well.  Gabriel Iglesias (comedian) gives five levels of fatness:
Big, Healthy, Husky, Fluffy, and "DAMN!" 

As long as you're not at any health risk from obesity you're alright... right up to "Damn!"


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## dancingalone (Jun 4, 2009)

JourneymanDave said:


> I was watching the Reno 911 movie a while ago and a particular line stood out for me: "I'm not chubby, its protective karate fat!"
> It made me laugh, but I also thought about it. I know alot of MMA fighters are ripped up to make weight and also its better conditioning as you would lighter and presumably quicker, but if one is in good shape and not morbidly obese anything, it doesn't really seem like it would be too horrible.  It could provide some protection from body blows, and, God forbid, a few inches of protection from a mortal wound if attacked with a knife.  There are a good deal of martial artists who do really well, even if they are a bit chubby (Sammo Hung comes to mind)
> 
> This is not, however, an excuse to skimp out on conditioning.
> ...



I believe heavier martial artists do well IN SPITE of their weight challenges rather than because of it.  If you think Sammo Hung was really good for being overweight, imagine what if he had been as trim as his younger kung fu brother Jackie Chan?

Medically you're way better off being within your ideal weight.  Heart disease, diabetes, etc.  

I am not judging anyone.  I work hard myself not to put on weight, since I do like to eat well.  So it's with that in mind, that I just suggest we all be honest to ourselves about being overweight.  It's not a good thing, and your martial arts can only get better as you strengthen and burn excess fat from your body.


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## Nolerama (Jun 4, 2009)

I'm not ripped by any means. But I prefer to keep the flab off and MMA training is a great way to do that. I don't think most fighters (of any style) think about losing fat as a way to become quicker in the ring. They think of what's best for their body in preparation for competition and that probably doesn't include aesthetics or a means to protect themselves.

It just comes with the training.

I'd rather be fit, and be the best prepared for fighting in any situation. That includes stamina and explosive energy. A few flabby pounds is not going to make my punch devastating. I think improving your technique/mechanics is better for your striking.


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 4, 2009)

For what it's worth, I remember Ken Shamrock saying once (in his prime) that he wasn't so muscular because he wanted to bodybuild, but that it made for great padding.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 4, 2009)

I've always enjoyed being large.  My 'weight limit' for the Marines was 192 lbs, but I never felt comfortable at that weight.  When I got out, I went to 235 and always felt pretty good there.  Even when I was in good physical condition, running up and down stairs, lifting weights, etc, I kept about that weight, and yes, there was some flab there.  I did not care.

Over the years, I began to gain weight, and finally ended up at a very large number.

Then I lost 50 lbs in two months - turns out to be diabetes.  I have a family history of it, but I have no doubt my weight was a factor.

I'd like to lose another 30 lbs, in a more healthy way.  But that will still leave me at around 200 lbs.  And now I find out that the height-weight standards have changed over the years - now the doctor says I should weigh around 165 lbs.  To heck with that noise.  I'll never weigh that, and what's more, I don't want to weigh that.

All I want is good cardio-vascular fitness, my diabetes under control, and a weight I feel comfortable with.  I'm a big guy and I like that.  I know skinny people cannot comprehend it, but a small girdle of belly not only doesn't bother me, I like it.  That's the way it goes.

And my sensei was pointing out the other day not to kick a fat guy in the gut - chances are good it won't have as much effect as it otherwise might.  He's right.

Health first, yes ... but all things in moderation, including moderation.


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## Omar B (Jun 4, 2009)

Not a fan of fat.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 4, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Not a fan of fat.



I do believe you've mentioned that.

You do appear to be a fan of 'obnoxious'.  Just saying.


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## Omar B (Jun 4, 2009)

Fan of obnoxious?  Is there a person or band named Obnoxious I don't know of you are referring to?


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## Phoenix44 (Jun 4, 2009)

I say, wait till you're my age and then let's discuss flab.  I train hard--MA, weights, cycling--but that layer of flab around the middle that materialized around age 50 is tough, seriously.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 4, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Fan of obnoxious?  Is there a person or band named Obnoxious I don't know of you are referring to?



Nothing personal, and I actually like you - but I can't think of you without thinking of your avatar photo, which I presume is you.  A smart-*** smirk and a '_punch me_' face like one of my nephews has.  It's cool and all, but at times your need to make snotty comments gets a tad tired.  I'm sure I have similar negative attributes, perhaps like recognizes like.

I'm fat, I'm aware that there are people like yourself who find fat people physically revolting, and I'm fine with it as long as people keep a civil tongue in their heads around me.  

I did have one gent ask me if I knew how bleeping fat I was back in the day when I still weighed a ton.  Since he was kind of enough to ask, I hip-checked him into the wall and waddled off - fat but on my feet.  He was skinny and on his narrow ***.  I guess I did know how bleeping fat I was.


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## Omar B (Jun 4, 2009)

Yes  that is my picture with the "punch me face" though I don't know what you are trying to imply (maybe some threat).

If you find the 5 words of my comment uncivil then fine, but I don't see where it's in any way rude or off topic or in any way attacking anyone in a thread about fat (that is the title right?).  It's a message board and we post our opinions, if you don't like it too bad, no one was attacked, defamed or any other rule violated.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 4, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Yes  that is my picture with the "punch me face" though I don't know what you are trying to imply (maybe some threat).



Good lord, no, no threat.  I'm a MA newbie, I have no doubt you'd wipe the floor with me.

One of my nephews has a 'punch me' face as well.  If you are not familiar with the term, it's just a visceral reaction to someone with a smirk like that on their mug.



> If you find the 5 words of my comment uncivil then fine, but I don't see where it's in any way rude or off topic or in any way attacking anyone in a thread about fat (that is the title right?).  It's a message board and we post our opinions, if you don't like it too bad, no one was attacked, defamed or any other rule violated.



No, I don't find your comment uncivil.  But you might note that you've stated before that you dislike fat people, and when pressed on the matter, you made it clear your disgust.  So, forgive me, I remembered that.

My question to you was probably off-topic and I apologize for that.  I was legitimately wondering if you were aware that your statements are often, shall we say, lacking in '_tact_' if not downright snotty, and if so, if that was actually your intent, of just a facet of your personality?


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## Omar B (Jun 4, 2009)

Bill, I'm a journalist, I get paid for my lack of "tact" as you put it (plus I'm a New Yorker).  I say what people don't want to say or what they don't want to hear.  I'm the guy who tells a band their stuff sucks and they need to go back to the practice studio if they ever want to sell to more than their family.

And no I don't want to wipe the floor with anyone at all, least of all you.  Heck,  can't even watch fighting on TV.  As I said many times, I don't even watch the UFC.  But thinking about a fight between members here, it would either be the coolest fight ever or over in a snap.


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## zDom (Jun 4, 2009)

Omar B said:


> But thinking about a fight between members here, it would either be the coolest fight ever or over in a snap.



Couldn't it be BOTH?


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## jeff5 (Jun 4, 2009)

My goal is to be healthy. Whether that means fat, skinny, etc., is up for debate, but I think you can make a broad general assumption that carrying a lot of weight (and this number is different for everyone), is not good for your long term health. I will say though that the ideal height/weight thing is a myth. Everyone is built differently and is comfortable at a different weight.

That being said I know there are thin people who are extremely unhealthy, and I know there are heavier ones who are healthy and physically fit. I've also learned never to judge someone's martial arts skill by their size. (either way)

Personally, I've lost a lot of weight over the past few years and am extremely proud of myself. Until I lost weight, I didn't realize how bad my self image was when I was heavier and that I didn't feel good about myself at all.

How does this relate to martial arts? Being stronger, faster, in better cardio shape, than your opponent can only aid you in coming out ahead in a confrontation or in sport. It's another piece in the puzzle so to speak, and combined with a good level of skill can drastically increase your chances of success. 

Staying fit and eating right can also protect you against the one opponent you can't avoid...old age =).


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## teekin (Jun 4, 2009)

Bill Darlin, I hate to do this but Type II is your bodies way of telling you that you *MUST* change your life style. If you specialist says 165 then 165 it is at least until the blood sugar is under control. We want you around for a long long time. OK? 
 Omar, sometimes it's not the message but the attitude you cop. It's like you don't think anyone has feelings and if they do, well isn't that just too bad. Boo-hoo. Bullies act like that, and most MA ists Hate Hate Hate bullies.
lori


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 4, 2009)

Grendel308 said:


> Bill Darlin, I hate to do this but Type II is your bodies way of telling you that you *MUST* change your life style. If you specialist says 165 then 165 it is at least until the blood sugar is under control. We want you around for a long long time. OK?



So far, I haven't been told to lose weight down to 165.  I mean the charts for height/weight say 165, and for me, that's ridiculous.  I weighed 145 when I got out of Marine Corps boot camp when I was 18 years old, and I looked like a death camp survivor.  I had a 29 inch waist and hips like a girls, my face looked like a skull.  It was the wrong weight for me, no matter what the charts say.

I will follow doctor's orders.  But at the moment, without having been given a weight goal, I'm aiming at 200, and I think that's a fine weight for me.  Much better than where I was two months ago.


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## shihansmurf (Jun 5, 2009)

Before I begin this post, I am going to offer a blanket apology to anyone that I offend by what I am about to type. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular but the fat issue tends to rile people and I've got a really unpopular view.

Sorry.


Now here goes...

Being fat is a sign of mental weakness. Our appetites for food, drink, and leisure are what determines if we are fat. Indiscipline in these areas manifests itself in the form of obesity. Laziness in reference to conditioning and fitness are not virtues to be courted and neither is the resultant blubber.

Wow, I'm a jerk!

Now, I understand that most people reading this are formulating the counter positions of glandular condition, genetic predisposition, ethnic back ground, and varied assorted rationalizations as to why they can't control their actions in reference to their eating and exercise habits. Its all a load of BS. Work hard, eat right, and have a bit of self respect and the results are astounding.

Look, 14 months ago I weighed 235 pounds, at 5'8".  It was disgusting. Oh, I was still able to pass the physical fitness test (APFT)in the Army. I could still pass the body fat percentage since I had a thick neck, but I looked like crap. I didn't do PT well. It was embarrassing. 

Then my karate instructor called me up to inform me that I would be grading to godan in April of 2009. Cool, I thought. This would be a cinch. I hate to grade but no worries. 

Then I started training. The weight was killing me. It was like trying to perform kata with a rucksack on.  All of my movements were like I was in slow motion. My cardio was appalling.  I couldn't even perform all 26 shotokan kata in a row due to fatigue. Note that I don't mean that I couldn't do those 26 kata sequentially several times though each after performing a bunch of reps of kihon.  I ment that I couldn't do the 26, once.

This was bad.

Then I took a trip home to attend my most senior students grading to sandan. Now, in order to be eligeble to grade to godan, I had to produce a student that could pass a sandan exam in front of a board that I coulnd't sit. It was a good test. I was allowed to assist, in the form of sparring with Matt. I had trouble keeping up. Skill wasn't an issue. Conditioning was. See, he hadn't packed on the equivilant of a third grader whereas I had.

Well, he passed.

A couple of weeks later, he sent me the pictures of his promotion. I was shocked. Seeing exactly how disgustlingly huge I had became was the straw that broke the camels back.  The picture is awfull. I was repellant.

I didn't want to step up to a godan grading in the kind of terrible shape that I had allowed myself to get into. I  absolutely didn't want to be one of those guys that couldn't see their belt knots past their fat tub of lard guts.

So, I decided to make conditioning a priority.

I learned about nutrition. I began the SlimFast shakes for breakfast, since I hadn't been eating in the mornings. I weaned myself off of regular soda and now only drink diet. Eventually, I'll give those up as well. I learned about basal metebolic rate and adjusted my caloric intake accordingly. I started eating healthily. I stopped the grazing. I've cutout junk food(except for a cheat day about once every three weeks to a month), and my portion sizes are down to what a person actualy needs to eat as opposed to the absurd overindulgences that we cram into our faces at most meals.

Then, I put together a workout plan that I thought would kill me. I lift weights three days a week. I lift to absolute exhaustion in my entire body.
I do Army PT 3 days a week at this duty station, which consists of a few push ups and a few sit ups and lots of cardio. I hit the gym the other three mornings(I go in on Saturday specificaly to hit the gym) for an hour on the tread mill. I do karate 3 times a week.
12 work outs a week. It sucks, but its worked.

I weighed this morining, 04 June 09, 178 pounds.

I've lost 11% body fat, and 57 pounds in the last fourteen months.

I was able to accomplish this because I accepted responsibility for the fact the the reason that I was out of shape was because I was a lazy and gluttonous drunkard.Sometime it sucks to take stock of yourself. The talley sheet comes out in the red on occasion. Now I have a pin in my right knee. I could have used that as an excuse to avoid putting in the training. Hell, I did. At the end of the day, I was tired of being fat. So I took the steps to fix it. I made the mess, I cleaned it up.I'm glad I did.

My senior student, probably not so much when we sparred the next time....

This is why I get bent out of shape when I hear the excuses from fat people about why they are fat. I know why they are fat. They're fat for the same reasons I was. They'll stay that way untill they decide to quite rationalizing the grossly self-destructive behaviors that manifest themselves as rolls of lard.

Every aspect of my performance as a martial artist has improved with the weight loss and the resultant increase in physical fitness.  I'm stronger(I was strong before, my bench is still at 275), but I am much faster. My cardio is insanely better.  I feel better, I look much better. Hell, I can see my belt knot when I look down.

Unless you're a sumo wrestler, fat is not good for a martial artist.

Look, I know I started this post harsh. I mean it with good intention. If any of y'all reading this are struggling with weight issues, I understand. I've been there. Don't rationalize away you're responsibility for your conditioning and fitness.  Take an honest assessment of yourself, and make the adjustments to your diet and exercise plans that you have to. The results are so worth it that I don't really know how to describe it. Be accountable and invest in yourself.

:soapbox:

Again, I'll extend an apology to anyone I offended. Well, unless I made you mad enough to really start training hard as a means of counter point then please let me know. I'll send you private messages calling you Fatty every day to help out..
:wink1:

Mark


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## Omar B (Jun 5, 2009)

Great post man.  Can't tell you how many people I know who attribute their weight issues to their glands or some disease that seems to allow them to do everything but work out.  I had an ex room mate who was all about her thyroid problem which never came up unless it came to going out and doing something physical, but it never stopped her from smoking like a chimney or eating crap and drinking like a fish.

But then, people may be comfortable where they are and not wish to change.  That's as it should be, be happy with yourself and your body.

Again, great post and congrats on your weight loss.


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## teekin (Jun 5, 2009)

Well Bill I think the charts are crap too, people can't be broken down into 3 types and pasted with an "ideal" weight. If you're blood sugar stabilizes at 200 fantastic. If that is where you feel the happiest and your body is happy then perfect!!!. :drinky:
 I commend you for not letting anyone else's opinion (problem) become your problem.:asian:
lori


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## teekin (Jun 5, 2009)

Smurf, that is a very well written post. It does address some hidden issues.
lori


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## Zakky (Jun 5, 2009)

Excellent post Mark, the way you explained it was top notch. I know a lot of people that fit that description and it really makes you wonder.

Your perception on weight loss is inspirational. Congratulations on the significant change.


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## Bruno@MT (Jun 5, 2009)

shihansmurf said:


> Being fat is a sign of mental weakness. Our appetites for food, drink, and leisure are what determines if we are fat. Indiscipline in these areas manifests itself in the form of obesity. Laziness in reference to conditioning and fitness are not virtues to be courted and neither is the resultant blubber.



I have never been fat, but I was well on my way of becoming it.
I was trimmed lean in college, but once I started working, life happened, and got in the way of training. Living on my own didn't help 

I never got fat, but slowly and surely, my weight creeped up on me.
Last year on holiday, I was standing in the bathroom which had a large mirror, and I looked at myself in the mirror when I was standing in profile.
.
.
.
And I was non too pleased with the fact that I was starting to get a real potbelly. At that time I weighed around 83 kilos, which is 182 pounds, and I am 1.76 meter , which is 5.7 feet

So I changed my diet. Not drastically, but I just cut out soda and beer, potato chips and other junk snacks. I stopped eating candy in between meals, things like that. I also started doing cardio again, and 4 months ago I started MA again.

Over the last months, I dropped to 165 pounds. My weight has now stabilized. My goal is to get to 160 pounds. I don't care if I get there, but under no circumstance do I want to get above 167. If I weigh more than that, it's not because there is anything wrong with me, it's just because I am slacking or overindulging.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 5, 2009)

shihansmurf said:


> Being fat is a sign of mental weakness. Our appetites for food, drink, and leisure are what determines if we are fat. Indiscipline in these areas manifests itself in the form of obesity. Laziness in reference to conditioning and fitness are not virtues to be courted and neither is the resultant blubber.



I appreciated your post and your reasons for losing weight. I applaud you for it.

With that said, I have to take slight exception to the statement above.

Being fat may be a sign of mental weakness, perhaps.  It can also be a lifestyle choice.  Not in the sense that a person chooses to be fat intentionally, but rather that a person puts other considerations in front of being thin.

Something like 3/4 of the USA is 'overweight' according to the charts.  That means overweight is 'normal' by the standards of our citizenry.  Many of us are lazy, don't get enough exercise, eat too much and eat food that is bad for us.  Many of us do that not necessarily by choice, but by circumstance.

Could we all take control of our lives and eat better, exercise more?  Probably a lot of us could.  Not all of us, not realistically.  I think of one of my younger sisters, a single mother of three boys, who tried desperately to lose weight for years as they were growing up.  No time to exercise, she worked full time and was a full time mother to them.  No money for decent food - cheap food is usually not that good for you.  She spent twenty years exhausted and fat.  Now that they're just about out of the house, she's got time and a little extra money and can indulge in things like exercise.

Then you've got people like me, who make decisions about what kind of life they want.  Obviously some of my decisions were bad - I've got diabetes now (although some would consider that my own fault exclusively, it appears to run in my family and doctors say it is hereditary, so I might have gotten it anyway).  And I am working hard to get in good physical shape, as I was before I was diagnosed.  And that includes losing weight - I'm not happy at the weight I was at.

However - and I think this is important - I have no interest in joining the ranks of the six-pack abs and v-shaped chests.  That's not me.  I'm a big guy and I like being a big guy.  5-10 and 200 is about where I'm happiest, so that's what I'm aiming for, presuming my blood sugar is under control at that point.  I know what my body 'likes' to be at, and 200 is about it.  Does it look good?  I DO NOT CARE.

My aim is my health and well-being and (important to me) comfort.  That means I won't deny myself a burger now and again to try to reach some weight where I look good - but don't feel good.  All I want is to be healthy - how I look does not enter into it.

The point?  I'm not hung up on my looks.  I've seen photos of myself, and I totally get what you're saying.  I also know I don't care.  I am me.  Fitness, I care about.  Weight, not so much.  Lazy?  I call it a choice.


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## terryl965 (Jun 5, 2009)

Well for me being fat is not a mental weakness but a cry for the use of steroids, you see I take 6 10 milligrams of them daily to help me breath, they are also in my inhaulers so I am screwed by all means. Sometime there are health issue behind the reason and sometimes you are right it is because we get lazy at best. I workout twice a day, i walk/jog three milesw every morning at the high school track and then I workout in my dojaang for about an hour everyday somdays harder tham others depend on my mood.

I appreciate the post and I also appreciate everyone right to accept or dislike fat people, but remember whatever you decide to do every single person has feelings and it is not your job to belittle anybody. Society needs to remember the common thread we all have to walk and that is though the gates to heaven, see everyone there one day.


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 5, 2009)

A choice? Maybe...but for how long? 

How long before the government steps in the way they did with smokers? 

Their ruling based on health issues caused from smoking set a legal precedent. Overall, health problems caused from being overweight are more than those caused from alcohol and tobacco combined. 

Personally, I don't care if you smoke or eat cheeseburgers for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Your choice as are the consequences. 

It's none of my business what you eat. If you're happy then what difference would it make what I thought anyway? 

As far as I'm concerned it's only an issue if you're not happy with your weight and/or appearance. If that's the case then there are several options to get the weight off regardless of why it's there.


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## geezer (Jun 5, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Bill, I'm a journalist, I get paid for my lack of "tact" as you put it (plus I'm a New Yorker).  I say what people don't want to say or what they don't want to hear...



Yeah, Omar... it's that edgy, smart-*** exterior, what Bill called a "punch-me face", that some people are responding to. When you go on past the one liners, it becomes apparent that you have a lot to say. It's just that some of us get hung up on that abrasive first impression. ...Kinda like some people that get hung up on whether someone is fat or not.


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## Jenna (Jun 5, 2009)

JourneymanDave said:


> I was watching the Reno 911 movie a while ago and a particular line stood out for me: "I'm not chubby, its protective karate fat!"
> It made me laugh, but I also thought about it. I know alot of MMA fighters are ripped up to make weight and also its better conditioning as you would lighter and presumably quicker, but if one is in good shape and not morbidly obese anything, it doesn't really seem like it would be too horrible.  It could provide some protection from body blows, and, God forbid, a few inches of protection from a mortal wound if attacked with a knife.  There are a good deal of martial artists who do really well, even if they are a bit chubby (Sammo Hung comes to mind)
> 
> This is not, however, an excuse to skimp out on conditioning.
> ...


I think your point is right... "but if one is in good shape and not morbidly obese anything, it doesn't really seem like it would be too horrible" - I had two favoured senseis in my past who were what would be described as excessively heavy for their frame, yet their competence in the art was to me unparalleled.  I know I could out chin-up and outsprint either of them and but I never once got the better of either of them on the mat (and when were chin ups ever a good defence!).  I think we adapt our techniques to ourselves.  I think there is no "norm" for any art.  I have the opposite problem in figuring out how I am to move potential opponents who are bigger than I am.  I have had to adapt my art to fit me better, like tailoring a trouser suit.  

I do not know about the mechanics.  I suspect that fat on a face, chest, kidneys would not much impede a proper blow and likewise where there is significant blood loss, a flesh wound is a flesh wound irrespective of a person's bodily fat percentage I think.  Similarly bodybuilders that consume excesses of calories do tread a fine line between rapid weight-gain and gain in muscle mass.

And but in all my years of training, I think I have learned never to allow my ill-informed prejudice to colour judgement of any of my opponent's fighting abilities.  Overweight or under, tall or short, I have found anecdotally that shape and size are irrelevant if the fighter is proficient and has made their art fit them.

I think the other fact that a lot of us forget is that our bodies can change over time and through circumstance or injury or age and so anyone who imagines they have perfected now the ideal system for all their days will I think travel for part of that journey with no art worth having.  Adaptability is my word for the day.  If a fighter can adapt to their body type, then their body type is irrelevant.  If they can adapt and have done so with a pragmatic mind then they will use that body type as a positive fighting advantage.

Class dismissed   Safe home everybody 
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## geezer (Jun 5, 2009)

shihansmurf said:


> I've got a really unpopular view...
> 
> Being fat is a sign of mental weakness. Our appetites for food, drink, and leisure are what determines if we are fat. Indiscipline in these areas manifests itself in the form of obesity. Laziness in reference to conditioning and fitness are not virtues to be courted and neither is the resultant blubber.
> 
> Wow, I'm a *jerk!*



A jerk? Me too. I'm also 5'8' and have a medium to small frame. When I passed 190, I was really turning into a slob. Like you, I made excuses for a few years and then decided to do something about it. I copped an attitude a lot like yours, and got my lazy **** into gear. I lost forty pounds and got lean and mean. That was two years ago. Now I've gained a bit back, and I'm up to 160. But since I've been running and lifting regularly, most of that is muscle. And it's not easy to put on muscle in your mid fifties! 

Sometimes being an obnoxious, intolerant jerk is a _good thing_. Like when it's directed toward yourself (or, to reference Omar, when reviewing a rotten band!). When it comes to self motivation, use whatever works. On the other hand, my instructor and some of my valued training partners are overweight. And they can still throw me around like nothing. Be harsh on yourself if it works, but be very careful how you judge others!

BTW-- I've lost the extra weight. But I still suffer from being a "mentally weak" lazy slob. But a fit slob! So there's some consolation.


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## CoryKS (Jun 5, 2009)

I can understand why people may find fat unappealing for aesthetic reasons, but I don't understand why it has to be judged as a moral lapse.  Why can't people be fat without also being lazy, weak, and gluttonous?  Fat occurs when caloric intake > caloric expenditure, right?  So it's possible that someone could be busting their *** daily but eating more than needed (gluttonous, perhaps, but not lazy or weak), or eating sensibly but not burning it off (perhaps lazy, not necessarily weak, and not gluttonous).  Or maybe they were formerly lazy and gluttonous but now exercise and eat sensibly, but not to a degree that it results in a caloric deficit (maintaining).  


I don't know how people manage to hold on to extra weight while training in MA, though.  That's a LOT of calories being burned.


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## jeff5 (Jun 5, 2009)

I'd like to respond to comments in several posts.

The stat that 3/4 of Americans are overweight - True, and should add overweight and out of shape.  That may be the norm but it's an extremely bad norm.  Overweight is probably not a good way to state it, it should probably be, out of shape or just in bad physical condition.  I'm not talking about looks, just basic fitness.  Most people can't do a pull up or push up or run a mile.  As a culture we've gotten more sedentary, are eating huge portion sizes (some are sick, really), and don't eat right.  It's bad for our country if you ask me, and needs to change.

Bill, if your healthy at 200 and that's what you like being at, I think you should stay there.  Imo, the look part (V chest, 6 pack abs, etc.), is optional.  People should exercise, eat right, and be active, and if you want to look a certain way, fine, but to me that's not required to be fit.  

Eating is a huge part of your health and weight.  I have read arguements that state it is harder to eat right/healthy when you are economically disadvantaged.  I don't have a solution for this, and I wouldn't use it as an excuse for people, but I do think that it has to be much harder to eat right/exercise when you are working two or three jobs and are on food stamps.  (note I said harder, not impossible)

The whole thyroid thing - I've seen some statistics that this actually affects less than 5% of the population.  That's not to say that some people don't have medical conditions, because I know they do and others should be sensitive to that. (or are on medications that cause weight gain) However for the VAST majority it's an issue of self discipline and motivation.  And again, even if you are heavy or look fat, you can still exercise and be in decent or even very good physical condition.


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## mook jong man (Jun 5, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> I don't know how people manage to hold on to extra weight while training in MA, though. That's a LOT of calories being burned.


 
As you get older your metabolism slows down and you have to train a lot harder and eat more sensibly to get the same results as when you were younger.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 5, 2009)

Just sing this song:


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## shihansmurf (Jun 5, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I appreciated your post and your reasons for losing weight. I applaud you for it.
> 
> With that said, I have to take slight exception to the statement above.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for the compliment.

First off, you are 100% right on the accuracy of the body weight charts. The weight screaning tables that we use in the Army are likewise skewed. The problem isn't that the charts are inaccurate because 3/4ths of the population are overweightaccording to them. The problem is that the charts themselves demonstrate an unrealistic BMI. The argument that since 3/4ths of the people are fat, then the definition of healthy weight is obviously wrong is faulty. The plethora of health issues related to obesity demonstrates that. Additionally, changing to standard to allow people that fail to meet the standard to suddenly pass, merely lowers the bar. It doesn't change the performance, so to speak.

In other words, grading on the curve doesn't produce smarter students and gauging your comaprative obesity against the blubbery masses does nothing to address the underlying problem if you happen to be overweight.

I'm not part of the V shaped chest and 6 pack ab crowd either. I'm in good shape, but I'll never be built like Jay Coulter or Dexter Jackson. I don't have the genes to get to their size and builds. I do think that, however, the fact that my pecs protrude futher than my gut is a good thing. I don't train for the bar body. I train for strength and to enhance my performance at my sport. To that end I do a lot of high weigh, low rep sets of compound excercises and tons of cardio. It has been effective.

That's the important thing. I realize that in my previous post, I ranted a bit about how I looked. I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a factor in my choice to alter my lifestyle, but the absolute most important moment for me came on my student's sandan grading. I was exhausted from sparring two rounds at full contact in gear. That's all I did. Six minutes, with a three minute break between minutes three and four and I was spent. I found the experience humiliating. I had gotten to the point that I couldn't perform well as a martial artist. Worse, I was a hypocrit.

See, as instructors we have this unfortunate tendency stand up in front of a class and preach about all these positive benefits of martial arts training. Discipline, self-control, strength of will, character, and so forth. How much self discipline and self control was I exhibiting by preaching about controling oneself when I was fifty pounds overweight? As martial artists we like to spout all this touchy feely crap about the lessons of the martial arts and how they transcend fighting, how martial art training is about walking a path in life, about a "Do", right? Well, here is the thing, if all that is true then for those teachings about self control, and self denial to have any meaning then we have to actually apply them to ourselves and not just recite them roboticaly to our students, or repeat them back lifelessly to our teachers. We have to ingrain them into our daily routines and inculcate them into our patterns of behavior, if not then they are nothing more than meaningless drivel at best and empty platitudes designed to distract from the fact that we are practicing a fighting art at worst.

I found myself being a hypocrit.See, in order to practice any real degree of self discipline one has to understand that every action we take is the result of a consious choice. Once we come to that realization it leads to the obvious conclusion that we are then absolutely responsible for the results of our choices. Since I had been choosing to cram disproprtionate amounts of food in my pie hole, drink way too much beer, and top it off with being lazy, I was being a hypocrit each time I opened my mouth and spoke of the positive benefits the martial arts. Once I accepted that I was the reason I was a fat, lazy, tub, the choice was clear. It wasn't easy but it was clear. 

When we are faced with a choice to make, and we choose to take an easy wrong over a hard right, then it is a moment of moral weakness. Do this often enough and it becomes habituated. Internal failings have extrnal manifestations, in the case of diet and excercise, it tends to become rolls of lard. That's why I view it as moral weakness. 

You are right. It is a choice. We all have to make our choices and own the reprecussions. I just don't tuck with calling weakness by another name. I made the hard choices. I'm no better, or mentally tougher than anyone else. If I am able to do this, than anyone else can as well. Self-determination is a wonderful thing.

One last thing, I don't deny myself a burger now and then either. Gluttony isn't a matter of the occasional splurge. It is habituated overeating. I have beer with my supper most nights, that doesn't make me a drunkard. Now, when I was putting away a six pack a night...

Point is, when we take our patters of behavior to unhealthy extremes we start ourselves down a path that will only serve to do us harm. Overindulgence in food, drink, leisure, or even exercise can ultimately serve to injure us. We can become slaves to our appetites with great ease.

Mark


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 5, 2009)

shihansmurf said:


> Point is, when we take our patters of behavior to unhealthy extremes we start ourselves down a path that will only serve to do us harm. Overindulgence in food, drink, leisure, or even exercise can ultimately serve to injure us. We can become slaves to our appetites with great ease.



Agreed again!  I absolutely see your point of view.  And although I am not an epicurean, I still feel compelled to say that as we both agree, a healthy lifestyle is a choice.  There are people who know full well the risks and who choose to overeat because they want to.  They do not exercise because they do not want to.  In a free society, they have to be free to make those choices if they wish.  When we get into the area of nationalized health care, then the argument changes - perhaps.  That's a different argument, though - a 'good of society/financial' issue instead of a personal choice/freedom issue.

I used to smoke.  I smoked a lot.  Too much.  It was unhealthy.   I knew it then, and I know it now.  I did not care.  That's a personal choice, and so long as my choice doesn't make anyone die but me, in a free society, I should be allowed to make it.  I quit - but that was my choice too.  I don't now go around telling smokers to quit - that's their business.

And just a funny anecdote I just recalled - I remember when I was in Marine Corps boot camp, back in the 1970's.  During boot camp, we spent a week at Camp Pendleton, CA, for rifle marksmanship training.  But that's not all we did there, we also did some serious forced marches - up the side of a mountain known as Mount M*(@*F@&*er, if you know what I mean.

You know who used to find those 10 hour marches no problem?  Fat-*** me.  Know who fell out of every single one of them?  A super-fit body-builder guy in our platoon who could run 3 miles in 18 minutes on flat land during our PFT tests.  Not all fitness is the same, not all endurance works alike, and looks can be deceiving.  I could do it - he couldn't.  Neither of us could believe it about the other, but it was true.


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## shihansmurf (Jun 5, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Well for me being fat is not a mental weakness but a cry for the use of steroids, you see I take 6 10 milligrams of them daily to help me breath, they are also in my inhaulers so I am screwed by all means. Sometime there are health issue behind the reason and sometimes you are right it is because we get lazy at best. I workout twice a day, i walk/jog three milesw every morning at the high school track and then I workout in my dojaang for about an hour everyday somdays harder tham others depend on my mood.
> 
> I appreciate the post and I also appreciate everyone right to accept or dislike fat people, but remember whatever you decide to do every single person has feelings and it is not your job to belittle anybody. Society needs to remember the common thread we all have to walk and that is though the gates to heaven, see everyone there one day.


 
There are people that have health issues that do impact their weight, but in all honesty, the overwhelming majority of fat people are that way because of the reasons I cited. The workout rourine that you put yourself through each day is testament alone to the fact that you are not one of the type of people that you feel I am insulting.

Nonetheless, I think that should point out that I don't dislike fat people. Hell, I was one. I can relate. That doesn't mean that we should turn a blind eye to people that are engaging in self-destructive behavior and pretend that what they are doing is fine and a valid health choice, especially if we purport to care about those people. By saying to them, "I don't want to hurt your feelings, so go ahead and pile on another helping there. By the way 340 pounds is a great weight at 5'9", and you should feel great about yourself", is empowering them to continue to engage in behavior that is detrimental to their health and well-being.  Sometimes hurting a persons feelings is a small price to pay if in exchange, we are able to get the person to break damaging habits.

A truthful assessment of a persons traits is not in any way belittling. Should someone read these posts that I have written on this subject and conclude that I am an arrogant, mean, condescending jerk. I don't think they would belittle me by pointing it out. They would be accurate, but the truth is never an insult. If a truth is unpleasnet to hear, then one should probably examine whay that particular truth is upsetting, and rectify things accordingly.

Mark

P.S. I find it damned impressive that you can wlk/jog three miles each morning given that you need an inhaler. Since I PCS'd to Arizona I've learned I'm allergic to several of the pollens out here in the desert. Until I started taking meds, I could barely breath, and certainly cardio was challenging to say the least.


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## Brian King (Jun 5, 2009)

Rats, no time currently to add to this conversation other than to take a moment to say I enjoyed reading this thread, found it educational and inspirational. A subject that could easily turn personal being handled honestly and helpfully. The honesty people are putting into their posts is truly humbling. Thank you and I hope this keeps going

Warmest wishes
Brian King


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## Empty Hands (Jun 5, 2009)

About 4-5 years ago, I got my *** in gear.  I went from not being able to run a mile to running a half marathon.  I went from not being able to handle a round of fighting, to fighting for an entire class and loving every minute.  I lost about 70 or so pounds, and I've kept it off.

Somehow, that didn't turn me into an *******.  Guess what guys, fat people know they are fat.  You don't have to be an *** about it.


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## shihansmurf (Jun 5, 2009)

Empty Hands said:


> About 4-5 years ago, I got my *** in gear.  I went from not being able to run a mile to running a half marathon.  I went from not being able to handle a round of fighting, to fighting for an entire class and loving every minute.  I lost about 70 or so pounds, and I've kept it off.
> 
> Somehow, that didn't turn me into an *******.  Guess what guys, fat people know they are fat.  You don't have to be an *** about it.



I was an ******* before I got back into shape. Now I still am, I just happen to be a well  conditioned *******.

:wink1:

Seriously, I don't go around poking fat people with sticks, but I also don't think that treating the matter with kid gloves is a good solution, especially if we are talking about students that you are responsible for being rotund. Round may be a shape but it sure ain't one you want to be in.

 As martial artists, we are athletes. I am amazed every time I hear a martial artist rationalize a lack of conditioning. As instructors, I feel it is incumbent upon us to set a standard for physical fitness and live up to it. We also owe it to our students to make conditioning a major part of our training. I'm not saying that we all need to be top notch athletes or Olympic level performers, but man if you can't see your belt past your gut that is unacceptable. If you can't perform your systems requirements because your rolls of blubber get in the way, then maybe it is time to adjust the way you train.

I don't know if that makes me an ***, but if it does I'm oddly fine with that. See, I'd rather accept things as they are instead of sugar coating them. I took a hard look at myself( a lengthy process, I was pretty chubby), and I realized that through my own weakness I had allowed myself to become fat, out of shape, and lazy. All of those things are easy to do, our appetites are all to easy to loose control of, in fact they are all to ready to gain control of us, and I allowed them to do so. The struggle back to being in control of my eating hbits, my drinking habits, and my exercise habits began with the realization that every action I took was predicated with a choice. I chose each time I overate. I chose each time that I didn't hit the gym and plopped down in front of the TV instead. I chose.

Everybody chooses.

Every time.

Now, heres the thing that made it hard. After my third deployment I was diagnosed with PTSD. One of the ways it manifested for me was in compulsive eating. I snacked all the time. I couldn't help my self. Sunflower seeds were the worst of it. Losts of calories there when you goe through three bags a day. I would eat candy bars, chips, fruit you name it. Kept me busy.I did so unconciously.  Oh, and soda. Coca Cola Classic. Two of the 2 liter bottles a day, plus a couple of cans at lunch.

Impressive, huh?Looking back I don't know how I only managed to gain 50 pounds.

Everybody chooses.

Every time.

It was an uphill battle, but when I made the choice to get back into shape I fought all that. Each time I wanted to eat that I hadn't accounted for, I had to fight a small war with myself. I lost a bunch of times. I won more often. Eventually I won most of the time. Now, I control my eating habits.

We all choose, no matter how difficult the choices are, we all choose. So I have a hard time feeling sympathy for the grossly fat that blame their weight problems off on anything but themselves and their own decisions. A sedentary lifestyle and gluttony are a deadly combination and all to common. 

Still though, I would hope that should I begin back down that path that some one would be enough of an *** to get me back on track. All of the health problems associated with obesity, the way my karate suffered, my work performance(inasfar as pt goes) suffered, the bouts of depression, and how much fewer problems I have with my knee that has the pin since I dropped the weight are worth the trade of having my feelings hurt in the short term by someone that cares enough about me to show me the truth of things, no matter how unplesant.

One last thing, well done on the half-marathons. I've started training up and hope to be able to run my first one this fall. Well, providing my knee holds out.

Mark


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## jarrod (Jun 5, 2009)

i look like a smaller version of chuck libelly most of the time.  

jf


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 6, 2009)

Since the thread was titled fat, specifically, I will comment on fat. 

The overweight/underweight thing is technically different, since according to the charts, I am overweight at 202 pounds. At 6'4 and sporting a 34 waist, nobody confuses me for being fat or thinks that I am overweight, but according to the charts, I should be 180. In his prime, Schwarzenegger was also overweight (I have no clue what his current weight is). Dolph Lundgren is overweight. Ali was overweight. 

Since muscle weighs more than fat, the same volume of muscle on you instead of fat will actually make you weigh more. 

Technicalities aside now, on to fat. Omar stated that he is not a fan of fat. I am not particularly keen on *fat* myself. Fat *people* are okay with me. It is actual fat and what it does inside of the body that I am not a fan of. Specifically, increased risk of heart disease, stroke, and diabetes. Apparently, being fat is also a cancer risk according to some study I read last year. 

So long as a person's mobility is not impaired, being fat will not prevent them from being good in a martial art. As some have observed, it may actually help in terms of absorbing impact or preventing a foreign object, such as a knife, from getting as close to one's vitals.

It is not until one gets into competative MA or a particularly demanding grading that it becomes an issue. In sport or competition, fat is the enemy. It inflates your weight without inflating your strength, it is counteractive to maintaining stamina, and it does slow you down, whether or not you realize it.

In self defense, being fat is not such an issue.  Chances are that an encounter will end in less time than a single round in a UFC match. But for those that do not end so quickly, such as one that involves being chased for an extended distance or an opponent that just will not go down but cannot gain an advantage, it can potentially cost you your life.

Personally, I feel that a student should be taught accounting for what he or she currently is, not what they should be ideally. I do not start white belts out in kendo sparring nito ryu. Likewise, I do not expect a white belt to be a Marine Corp pushup machine, regardless of their weight.

Daniel


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## thetruth (Jun 6, 2009)

Just my 2 cents.    If an instructor is fat well that is up to them.  But they can't go preach the fitness benefits of their martial art when it clearly does not work for them.   A little bit of weight i can deal but those that are really fat to the point the knot on their belt points at the ground or they can no longer see it then they should give it away.  There is no excuse for someone to be that overweight in the martial arts unless that art is Sumo.   

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 6, 2009)

thetruth said:


> Just my 2 cents. If an instructor is fat well that is up to them. But they can't go preach the fitness benefits of their martial art when it clearly does not work for them.


I said essentially the same thing in another thread about blackbelt testings when this subject came up.  If your literature touts the fitness benefits of whatever MA you instruct, you had better look the part.



thetruth said:


> A little bit of weight i can deal but those that are really fat to the point the knot on their belt points at the ground or they can no longer see it then they should give it away. There is no excuse for someone to be that overweight in the martial arts unless that art is Sumo.


Well, it depends on what type of school they are running.  If they are running a fitness center with a martial arts theme, then I agree.  But in all honesty, if they can perform the techniques and can communicate that ability to their students, fitness club atmosphere aside, being fat has no impact on their ability to instruct.

Sumo brings up an interesting point.  I would not really want to pit my karate against a sumo wrestler in a competative environment unless it were strictly point fighting, and even then I would be very careful.

Sumo is one art where being fat is an actual benefit, but I do not see many sumo schools.  Given the statistics about weight gain in the US, perhaps some enterprising entrepreneur should start trying to capitalize on it and start a chain of sumo stables.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Jun 6, 2009)

Originally Posted by *thetruth* 

 
_*Just my 2 cents. If an instructor is fat well that is up to them. But they can't go preach the fitness benefits of their martial art when it clearly does not work for them*._

_here is one of my problems alot of football conditioning coaches are fat but yet they are able to preach about physical fitness and of course so many high physical fitness instructor are fat6 but yet they preach physical fitness, hell my cardio instructor at the gym has a mid section but yet he can run a marathon. I do not see the logic behind this, I know so many skinny people that cannot get out of the gate ina marathon._

_Originally Posted by *thetruth* 

 
*A little bit of weight i can deal but those that are really fat to the point the knot on their belt points at the ground or they can no longer see it then they should give it away. There is no excuse for someone to be that overweight in the martial arts unless that art is Sumo.*

Again I can only say I disagree, believe me I am fat but yet I can teach all the application and still get down and dirty when need be, am I as fast as yester year hell no but then again I am alot smarter and know what I need to do to get the beeter end of the stick.

Remember everybody is not into fitness but they maybe into Martial Arts alot. Two different aspect we are talking about.
_


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## geezer (Jun 6, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> _here is one of my problems alot of football conditioning coaches are fat but yet they are able to preach about physical fitness and of course so many high physical fitness instructor are fat6 but yet they preach physical fitness, hell my cardio instructor at the gym has a mid section but yet he can run a marathon. I do not see the logic behind this, I know so many skinny people that cannot get out of the gate ina marathon._



Is the fat football coach a stereotype or something? I didn't know. But the head coach at the high school I teach at is really heavy,  and has been for decades. A cool guy and great coach. But fat. And it doesn't adversely effect his performance as a coach either. But I'm sure it's not great for his health.

The JV coach was even heavier. Maybe 450 pounds? Maybe 500? A textbook case of "morbid obesity". And he really struggled with it. Other members of his family had exactly the same shape. It has to be genetic, ...some aspect of their metabolism. There's no way most people could put on that much weight if they tried. After going through gastric bypass procedure, he's managed to control his weight some, but it's still a battle. 

Now I'm basically not a "fat type". If I get overweight, it's pretty much because I'm indulging myself. So I berate and cajole myself back into a fitness program and drop some pounds. That works for me. But each person is different, and some of the finest human beings I've met have struggled with weight problems. Why do we, as a society still deride people with weight problems? It's not acceptable to go around criticizing folks with other kinds of health problems... so why do some people think its OK to dump on fat people?

Oh, and I know a lot of good martial artists who have weight issues. One is my instructor. He's still an awesome teacher.



terryl965 said:


> _Remember everybody is not into fitness but they maybe into Martial Arts alot. Two different aspect we are talking about._
> [/I]


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 6, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Originally Posted by *thetruth*
> 
> 
> _*Just my 2 cents. If an instructor is fat well that is up to them. But they can't go preach the fitness benefits of their martial art when it clearly does not work for them*._
> ...


Well, from a marketing perspective, if you are touting fitness as a primary benefit, it really weakens your pitch if you do not look the part and has nothing to do with how effective you are as an instructor. 

Football coaches are hired for their ability to win games. The players have trainers who are independent of the coaches. The coaches preach about physical fitness because having physically fit players helps them to win games. 

If obese players were more effective, they would tout McDonalds. 

If skinny players were more effective, the defensive line would be composed of guys weighing less than 150 and the offense would all be 100 pounds a piece.

Obviously, neither extreme is effective in football, so you generally have a bunch of very strong, muscular guys, some of whom have a bit of paunch. 

The coach's main attribute is his or her ability to inspire their players and to be a tactician, neither of which is dependent upon physical fitness.



terryl965 said:


> _and of course so many high physical fitness instructor are fat6 but yet they preach physical fitness, hell my cardio instructor at the gym has a mid section but yet he can run a marathon. I do not see the logic behind this, I know so many skinny people that cannot get out of the gate ina marathon._


You are confusing two separate issues. While being fat is bad for one's long term health, it is simply a single disadvantage when it comes to performing physical tasks. 

The fact that your cardio instructor *can* run a marathon simply means that he has good endurance and has trained to a point where his advantages overshadow his disadvantages. Having said that, being able to run a marathon does not make him competative. I could finish last place and twenty minutes behind everyone else and say that I ran a marathon. 

In any kind of race, weight is *generally* the enemy. There is a reason why jockeys are teeny tiny. 

And jockeys are generally very fit. But they do not train to run marathons. Having been a competative cyclist and a cross country runner in high school, I can say that the training for each is specialized, and both are very different from training to race a horse. Thus a jockey may be _fit_, but not able to run a marathon.

Same with motorcross. A competative motorcross racer *needs* endurance and a degree of physical strength. But it is not the same as running a marathon.

Lastly, one of the guys that used to come to kendo class was an avid runner but had less endurance in kendo that I do. I have no doubt that he could outrun me; he runs regularly, was a high school track and field wiz, and was almost twenty years my junior. And he made *me* look fat, and that is hard to do. But he had never trained to fight with bogu and running does not require nearly as much upper body use as kendo.

Yes, he got better, but he never could outlast me. At the same time, one of our 1st kyu kendoka is definitely fat and a year older than I am, but he can nearly hang with me in terms of endurance and outlasted the runner without a problem.

Kind of a long winded post Terry, but I felt that you made some good observations that people with a weight problem can certainly have endurance and be very effective in an activity that they train in.

Daniel


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## matt.m (Jun 6, 2009)

Hey Shihan Smurf, "Mental Weakness?" Not in all cases, some of us served our country, went into combat and had to do stuff you couldn't possibly fathom. "Mental Toughness" or any other popular catch phrase is so ridiculous and overused. Passing high school doesn't take mental toughness.  Stretching and doing calesthenics along with physical therapy while dealing with 10 medications, hairline knee fractures that will never heal and coping with post traumatic stress disorder takes "Mental Toughness."  I didn't get offended, I just thought you made a knee jerk statement to something you just don't fully understand.

Hey Bill, you served like me in the Corps. I understand and Semper Fi. I should be about 155 not 175. However, I am wearing 2 titanium leg braces from combat injuries, have a bad back from combat injuries. I was in from 92 - 97 and well ya know. So yeah I have had days when I comfort eat and have to call the vet hotline.

Yeah I know I need to loose 20 lbs but ya know, don't talk about being overweight as a "Mental Weakness" as a blanket statement like all and everyone their Smurf. That is just so weak.


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## shihansmurf (Jun 6, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> _Remember everybody is not into fitness but they maybe into Martial Arts alot. Two different aspect we are talking about.
> _




Interesting point, but one that I have to respectfully disagree with the logic behind. Martial arts are physical. To say the you can be into performing martial arts and not be into fitness is like saying you can be into mechanics and not be into tools. The only way those statements can be true is if you contain your involvment in the martial arts or mechanics ti the theorectical.
When the actual physicality of performing the arts or doing mechanic work happens, then fitness matters as do tools, respectively.

Now, if you mean that a particular martial artist isn't into a fitness routine seperate from doing martial arts, then sure, I agree with you, but the aspects of physical fitness and skill performance are inseperable.  You simply can't have one without the other.

There are different aspects of fitness, and different athletes will focus on different ones as suits their needs so comparisons between sports are only so useful, however I think that the football coach analogy is especially flawed. I hear i brought up a lot and it is invalid.

See, that coach isn't expected as part of his coaching duties, to perform the skill set well. He just needs to know how to coach football. There also isn't this additional baggage of  touting the long term benefits, health and character wise, of playing football. Sure, you hear them talk about the life lessons of sportsmanship and teamwork, but the coach is still held to that standard. The coach, however, isn't stilll one of the athletes. As martial arts instructors, we are. In theory we always will be, so for one of us to preach fitness and be out of shape is to be a hypocrit, not for that football coach.

Again, different athletes will develop particular aspects of fitness such as speed, strength, cardio endurance, as dictated by the demands of their sport.  We are no different in the martial arts world.  Different arts require the development of physical attributes in different proportions to be successful. Most martial artists experince this development organicaly, through the routines performed in class. Some develop those attributes through supplimental fitness routines. It has been my experience that the most successfull performers are the ones that suppliment,although I have encountered an exception or two.

Mark


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## shihansmurf (Jun 6, 2009)

matt.m said:


> Hey Shihan Smurf,  "Mental Weakness?"  Not in all cases, some of us served our country, went into combat and had to do stuff you couldn't possibly fathom.  "Mental Toughness" or any other popular catch phrase is so ridiculous and overused.



matt.m,

I am a professional soldier with three combat deployments since 2003. I have Bronze Star with a "V" device and two Purple Hearts. I have risked my life for my country, killed men in combat, and lost soldiers.

I can fathom quite a bit.

You may have been offended that I am a judgemental jackass because I hold people accountable for their physical fitness. I think that people are responsible for their actions. See, when people sit on their butts cramming food into their pie holes, they get fat. I'm sorry if this hurts your feelings.


Mantal toughness isn't a catch phrase, it is an accurate descriptor.
One last note, some us have served our country. Some of us went into combat and did some things that we would rather not have had to. In an earlier post, I commented on the fact that I was diagnosed with PTSD. One of its manifestations for me was compulsive eating. I worked through it. I used "Mental Toughnes". 

Oh wait, I couldn't have since its just a ridiculous catch phrase. I guess instead what I should have done was to keep carrying around the extra weight and balming everyone but myself? Or should I have blamed my combat experiences, you know the ones that I could't possibly fathom?

I chose to take responsibility for my actions and fix the problem, you will I hope forgive me, as  I think that other people have the same underlying strength to do the same. Patting them on the back and telling them its okay to put their health at risk because they can't control their appetites is unacceptable.



Mark


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 6, 2009)

matt.m said:


> Hey Shihan Smurf, "Mental Weakness?" Not in all cases, some of us served our country, went into combat and had to do stuff you couldn't possibly fathom. "Mental Toughness" or any other popular catch phrase is so ridiculous and overused. Passing high school doesn't take mental toughness.
> 
> Yeah I know I need to loose 20 lbs but ya know, don't talk about being overweight as a "Mental Weakness" as a blanket statement like all and everyone their Smurf. That is just so weak.


Mental toughness is a fairly general term, but one can be mentally tough in one area and be horribly weak in others.  I know people who are incredibly, rigidly disciplined and definitely have a general mental toughness, but cannot resist select self destructive behavior.  

One person I know cannot manage his money.  He sees something cool and needs to buy it, always justifying it with some sort of rationale.  Another struggles with weight, mainly because when he is hungry, he just *must* have chips.  His wife has similar issues and I knew her when she was merely pleasantly plump.  Now both of them are morbidly obese.  It is due to two things: chips and world of warcraft.  

Both of them are aware of their weight gain and the causes of it.  Both know what they need to do to fix it.  He actually started doing somethng and went from over 300 pounds to less than 250, and that was just dietary changes.  He still does not get any exercise.  She has severe mobility problems due to her weight gain (over 200 pounds and under 5'4 and small boned) and has to stop and catch her breath every five or so feet from the car to her front door.  No exaggeration.

Both of these people are very disciplined in other areas of their life and certainly have 'mental toughness' in those areas.  But they have a decided mental weakness in certain other areas, and unfortunately, that impacts their bodily health negatively.

Just like physical training, mental training is not all encompassing.  There are different mental disciplines that one can strengthen and strengthening those in certain areas does not automatically translate to gains in other areas.

Daniel


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## JDenver (Jun 6, 2009)

To suggest that compulsive eating means that you are weak minded is to also suggest that a compulsive gambler, heroin addict, smoker, and alcoholic all lack mental toughness.

Addictive behaviour has nothing to do with your will or mental toughness.


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## Ronin74 (Jun 6, 2009)

In regards to the topic of the OP, martial artists (like most of mankind) will come in all shapes and sizes. A person's height, girth, or any other physical appearance won't change how well they do their art. Please notice I'm referencing appearance and not conditioning. There's probably just as many out of shape, skinny folks as there are decently-conditioned big folks.

For myself, I could definitely stand to lose some weight. The demands of a recent job offer will need me to be in good shape, including being able to run for an undetermined time (sometimes having to carry extra weight). In those circumstances, I need to make sure I'm at a weight my joints can handle. However, that doesn't mean I need to be slimmed down like a fitness guru. It just means I need to be in good enough shape to do the job efficiently. And as far as unhealthy vices are concerned, I'll admit to a nice pairing of a good scotch and a medium to mild cigar.

As for the whole tactfulness thing, it's a tricky one to navigate. On one hand, we should all be able to state our honest opinions without fear of repercussions. On the other hand, it never hurts to demonstrate some measure of civility and tact. If we view our verbal skills in a similar light to our martial arts abilities, it's a GOOD thing to have a nice, well-kept arsenal, but it's a GREAT thing to know when to use it.

But that's just my opinion.


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## shihansmurf (Jun 6, 2009)

JDenver said:


> To suggest that compulsive eating means that you are weak minded is to also suggest that a compulsive gambler, heroin addict, smoker, and alcoholic all lack mental toughness.
> 
> Addictive behaviour has nothing to do with your will or mental toughness.



I'm not suggesting it, I'm outright stating it.

They all lack mental toughness, that's why they are addicts. They engage in habitual behavior that is self-destructive, and and they do so out of choice.

A drunk is a drunk because he elects to drink. No one if holding him down and pouring booze down his throat.

A heroin addict is an addict because they elected to use a substance and then now lack the will to endure the torturous process of getting clean. They are choosing which path to take.

Smokers smoke because they choose to continue to engage their addiction instead of enduring, like the above mentioned heroin addicts, the torturous effects of quitting.

Gambling addicts are weak minded fools that choose the thrill of gambling over everthing else of value in their lives. House payment? Not important. 
Black Jack? Hell yeah!

What they all have in common is that the person makes a choice in everything that they do. You may not wat to hold people accountable for their actions, thats fine. Its better to keep them as victims, right?

See, in order to get better you have to admit that you have a problem, and that you can take ownership of your actions so as to break free of a cycle of self-destructive behavior. You can't do that if you are shifting the accountability away from the actor to the condition. Mental toughness and strength of will are essential for persevering through the horrific process of breaking addictions. It's how it works. It worked  for my dad when he decided to crawl out of the bottle that he stayed in after Vietnam for 40 or so years, it worked for my peer that I came up through the belts with when she went through re-hab for cocaine, and its is how, under all the fuzzy language, all the twelve step programs work

I just don't soften how I phrase things.

Mark


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## shihansmurf (Jun 6, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Sumo is one art where being fat is an actual benefit, but I do not see many sumo schools.  Given the statistics about weight gain in the US, perhaps some enterprising entrepreneur should start trying to capitalize on it and start a chain of sumo stables.
> 
> Daniel



Seems as though one could go into business with a chain of combination Sumo schools and bulk food stores. It would go hand in hand. 

:wink2:

Maybe they could get sponsorship deals from Sizzler?

Mark


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 6, 2009)

shihansmurf said:


> I'm not suggesting it, I'm outright stating it.
> 
> They all lack mental toughness, that's why they are addicts. They engage in habitual behavior that is self-destructive, and and they do so out of choice.



You're wrong.


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## JDenver (Jun 6, 2009)

shihansmurf said:


> I'm not suggesting it, I'm outright stating it.
> 
> They all lack mental toughness, that's why they are addicts.
> 
> Mark



We'll just disagree, which is okay.  

I will say that psychologists, social workers and mental health experts will disagree with your assertion that addiction is due to lack of will.  A mental defect cannot be overpowered anymore than depression or psychosis.  Addiction is a disease.  By the by, will is centred in your pelvis, which could lead us to an entire, massive thread on it's relationship to mental toughness.

As a side note, I've never met a morbidly obese person or alcoholic who wasn't a broken person.


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## shihansmurf (Jun 6, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> You're wrong.



Outstanding post, Bill. Glad you could participate. Its always good to have people contribute somethings usefull to the discussion apart from declarations.

By the way.


I am right.

See, that was usefull. Notice how I supported my position? Awesome, wasn't it? 

If you think I'm wrong, demonstrate it. My experiences the I've had have shown me otherwise. But please enlighten me. Just attempt to elucidate you position, cause you see, you simply saying I'm wrong doesn't make me so any more than my counter point makes me right.

This being a discussion board, try discussing the matter. 

Mark


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## bluekey88 (Jun 6, 2009)

You're opinions about addicition just don't hold water or hold up to the research.  Addicition isn't about mental weakness...addicition is not really a choice.  A person can be discipplined in many areas if life...but somewhere in the neurochemical makeup is this prediliction to a certain behavior.  It may be dirnking, could be using certian drugs, could be gambling, eating...whatever.  It sites there lurking. When presented with the addicitve stimulus, your brain sabotages you.  Your 'willpower' goes right out the window....you're hooked.  

Here's the thing....you don't know what that hook is until you've been exposed to it.  An alcoholic who never is exposed to alcohol will not manifest the addicittion...but have a drink or two and it's game over.  Conversely, there are plenty of stories of soldiers in the Vietnam era who turned to heroine in times of extreme stress...became physically addicted....had to go through detoix and never touched the stuff again once back in the states.  Plenty of others spent their lives chasing the dragon as it were.

With things like eating, shopping, etc.  They are even more insidioous becasue, unlike drugs or alcohol, one needs to eat and shop, etc to get through day to day life.  One has the unenviable task to learn to manage the addicitve stimulus rather than just avoid it all together.  It takes more than the usual amount of "willpower" to do something...most people (soldier or no) are simply not up to the task.  It takes a life time of hard trials and persistence to make any headway.

To those who have not had to struggle with any sort of addicition, thank your lucky stars that you've been so lucky.  To those of you have are struggling...know that some of us respect your strength and are silently pulling for you.

Peace,
Erik


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 6, 2009)

shihansmurf said:


> Outstanding post, Bill. Glad you could participate. Its always good to have people contribute somethings usefull to the discussion apart from declarations.
> 
> By the way.
> 
> ...



Not this time.  Your attitude makes my skin crawl, and I need to go out and get some sunshine.  I would never want to be in your head with you, it appears be a very ugly place.  Sorry, but although we've had cordial conversation, your recent statements make me sick to my stomach.  I'm truly revolted.


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## shihansmurf (Jun 6, 2009)

JDenver said:


> We'll just disagree, which is okay.
> 
> I will say that psychologists, social workers and mental health experts will disagree with your assertion that addiction is due to lack of will.  A mental defect cannot be overpowered anymore than depression or psychosis.  Addiction is a disease.  By the by, will is centred in your pelvis, which could lead us to an entire, massive thread on it's relationship to mental toughness.
> 
> As a side note, I've never met a morbidly obese person or alcoholic who wasn't a broken person.



Fair enough, I see you point, and though I don't agree with you I have to say that I think your last observation is spot on. 

Mark


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## shihansmurf (Jun 6, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Not this time.  Your attitude makes my skin crawl, and I need to go out and get some sunshine.  I would never want to be in your head with you, it appears be a very ugly place.  Sorry, but although we've had cordial conversation, your recent statements make me sick to my stomach.  I'm truly revolted.



Wow, personal attack, Bill.
Can't defend your position so you run and hide from the discussion, I thought you were made of something sterner. I guess 48 year old ex-marines aren't that tough?

There is a function called an ignore list, if I bother you so much add me to it.I would hate to think that holding people accountable for their action, not moly coddling drunks, addicts, and the like is so offensive.

I hope you have a better day
Mark


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## Ronin74 (Jun 6, 2009)

Just wanted to throw this out there: are crack babies mentally weak?


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## shihansmurf (Jun 6, 2009)

Ronin74 said:


> Just wanted to throw this out there: are crack babies mentally weak?



Oh good. lets use the obvious extreme example that bears no relevance.

That crack baby didn't engage in the behavior that lead to its affliction. The Mother did and inflicted that horror on that baby.

but, hey it isn't the addicts fault, right? I means it isn't like she chose to engage in behavior that lead to her addiction. Hell, she didn't choose to continue to use drugs during her pregnancy. I mean,  all of these things were magically inflicted on her through no fault of her own, and she was powerless to stop them from happening, right?

I mean, none of these things were choices, right?

But of course, I'm the mean guy for not viewing the mother as a victim.

Mark


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## Ronin74 (Jun 6, 2009)

shihansmurf said:


> Oh good. lets use the obvios extream example that bears no relevance.
> 
> That crack baby didn't engage in the behavior that lead to its affliction. The Mother did and inflicted that horror on that baby.
> 
> ...


Relax Hoss. I'm just bringing up a VERY relevant point here, not trying to get you riled up.

If by your definition, an addiction is a sign of mental weakness, and that a person who works to overcome that addiction is demonstrating mental strength, then doesn't it stand to say that anyone who's done the work to overcome their own personal demons or afflictions were at one point "mentally weak" before they were "mentally strong"?

The point I'm making here is that it's easy for us to point fingers when we're not going through it. However unless we know the exact circumstances of how they got there, is it really fair to throw them under the "mental weakness" blanket? And if we're disgusted by people who may be going through the same trials we've overcome, perhaps the issue isn't with them.

Now I'm not saying our own personal opinions are wrong. They're just that- personal opinions. However there's that fine line we (I'm guilty of it too) cross when we try to classify someone else who may not fit into what we consider acceptable.


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## shihansmurf (Jun 6, 2009)

bluekey88 said:


> You're opinions about addicition just don't hold water or hold up to the research.  Addicition isn't about mental weakness...addicition is not really a choice.  A person can be discipplined in many areas if life...but somewhere in the neurochemical makeup is this prediliction to a certain behavior.  It may be dirnking, could be using certian drugs, could be gambling, eating...whatever.  It sites there lurking. When presented with the addicitve stimulus, your brain sabotages you.  Your 'willpower' goes right out the window....you're hooked.
> 
> Here's the thing....you don't know what that hook is until you've been exposed to it.  An alcoholic who never is exposed to alcohol will not manifest the addicittion...but have a drink or two and it's game over.  Conversely, there are plenty of stories of soldiers in the Vietnam era who turned to heroine in times of extreme stress...became physically addicted....had to go through detoix and never touched the stuff again once back in the states.  Plenty of others spent their lives chasing the dragon as it were.
> 
> ...



Here's the thing.

I've been through this. As I stated in earlier posts, I was dignosed with PTSD and compulsivly ate as a coping mechanism. I'm not speaking from the perspective of someone that hasn't had to deal with this sort of problem.
It sucks, and its hard. I had to go through counseling and get help to beat it, but all that help came down to the same things.

1.Everything that you do is a choice, no matter how difficult that choice or unpleasent the consequences are for those choices.
2. Take accountability for your actions.
Every "addiction" that we face is a battle that we wage. We can choose to fight this battle, or not. Some times we choose to fight and loose. Tha sucks too, but it is better than not fighting.
3. Shifting responsibility for our actions from ourselves to whatever condition we have is self0defeating. It takes away our accountability and without that, we don't fight the battle. We don't fight we don't get better.

Now, I've parahphrased the hell out the process and maybe that is the problem here. The terminology that I use isn't soft and cuddly. Sorry about that, I think that euphamisms are a sort of lying. Calling a drunk anything else is a euphamism that serves to help keep that person bound to the bottle. Calling a glutton a "compulsive eater" is a polite way of handing him more food. I know because I've been there.

This what pisses me off about this sort of thing, I've been told in this thread that its not mental weakness to be overweight if you've served in combat. I was also told that I couldn't fathom what that was like. 

Well, I sure as hell ended up with an eating disorder(not to mention sleeping problems and an anger management issue) as a result of combat. I grew up watching my dad try to embalm himself due to the effects of his combat experiences. But, I guess my opinion isn't valid since I'm not polite about calling drunks by a nice name.

Now, here's the fun fact. Both of us worked through those problems. But, I suppose that can't be true since addiction and will aren't linked. It can't be true since we were not the ones that were accountable for our actions, or "diseases" were.


I've also been told that my head must be an ugly place. Probably is. I would however think, that the fact that I have endured the very thing that I am writing about allows me to speak honestly about it without being insulted, but that isn't the case. I mean, obviously, my first hand experience is trumped by pontification and pronouncements of my erroneous viewpoint, a viewpoint tempered by having had to work through this sort of thing but nonetheless. I am well and truly humbled.

At the end of the day, holding people accountable for their actions is the only way to help them. I may be wrong but I have yet to ancounter a singe person that was able to successfully quite a self0destructive habit that did so while still clinging to the view that they were not the one that was to blame for their condition.

Mark


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## bluekey88 (Jun 6, 2009)

shihansmurf said:


> Here's the thing.
> 
> I've been through this. As I stated in earlier posts, I was dignosed with PTSD and compulsivly ate as a coping mechanism. I'm not speaking from the perspective of someone that hasn't had to deal with this sort of problem.
> It sucks, and its hard. I had to go through counseling and get help to beat it, but all that help came down to the same things.
> ...


 Not making light of your experiences...but were you mentally weak prior to your trauma?  How about after?  

Your experinces highlight my points exactly.  One's brain can really high-jack ones life.  It's not pleasant, but it is hardly a sign of weakness.

that being said, we are responsible for our actions, our behaviors, and our recovery.  But being in recpovery and struggling with addicition (or trauma or whatever the cas may be) isn't what makes one weak.  Giving up and saying one cannot change is a different thing...but most of us struggling with various addicitions are hardly saying that.

Peace,
Erik


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## shihansmurf (Jun 6, 2009)

Ronin74 said:


> Relax Hoss. I'm just bringing up a VERY relevant point here, not trying to get you riled up.
> 
> If by your definition, an addiction is a sign of mental weakness, and that a person who works to overcome that addiction is demonstrating mental strength, then doesn't it stand to say that anyone who's done the work to overcome their own personal demons or afflictions were at one point "mentally weak" before they were "mentally strong"?
> 
> ...



My apologies, I fired off that post right after the one to Bill.  I didn't mean to be that harsh. I'm sorry.

Your second paragraph is *EXACTLY* what I'm getting at. Working through these issues takes tremedous strength, getting into them in the first place, however. No one is perfect. We all fail. Recognizing that in order get better we have to own our failures is difficult. Its painful. But its how we get past our shortcomings. 

Look, I was a fat and gluttonous before I decided to make these changes. The process sucked, made harder by the fact that my brain was trying to sabotage me as bluekey88 pointed out on a chemical level. Nonetheless, I was able to push through and now I'm past it.

My dad endured horrible dt's and still fight his war with the bottle to this day.  He is incredibly different as a person now, and the reserves of mental strength that he has shown with this, and his recent cancer dignosis have been amazing.

The circumstances that got people into the situations, while important, ultimately don;t account for that much when you are trying to get past the specific addiction. In my case, I know why I was cramming food ito my face, it didn't stop things, and I couldn't change any of the things that got my to that point. I could change things from that point onward.

As I've stated, I don't dislike fat people. I don't go around initiating converstions with them by saying things like.."Hey, do you want me to tell you what your obesity is doing to your health?"
I don't offer open critique of my associated even, unless asked, and then I am more tactfull but still honest. I thinkl it is the only real way to help a person that is suffering from addiction.

Mark


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## JDenver (Jun 6, 2009)

GETTING TO THE ORIGINAL POST - 

My own experience just gave me some insight into something.

I used to run alot.  Since doing more MA, I rarely run anymore.  I don't have time to run for 45 minutes, then do another 45 minutes of MA every day. You'd really have to be dedicated to do so much working out (and I literally do my MA stuff 20-40 minutes everyday...sometimes more of course).

So, maybe some MA folks do their practice, which isn't significant enough cardiovascular activity to burn excess calories?


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## shihansmurf (Jun 6, 2009)

bluekey88 said:


> Not making light of your experiences...but were you mentally weak prior to your trauma?  How about after?
> 
> Your experinces highlight my points exactly.  One's brain can really high-jack ones life.  It's not pleasant, but it is hardly a sign of weakness.
> 
> ...



This is what I've been trying to get at this whole time.

Was I weak before? I don't think so. I think that I allowed myself to become that way as I leaned on food as a coping mechanism. Its a fine distinction, but an important one. There was a cause(the PTSD) and a really bad series of decisions as to how to deal with the effects of that which lead to the problem. 

I think that the way we get ourselves into these situations is what determines what sort of people we are. 

The struggle to get past these hurdles is hard, and overcoming them is a sign of great mental strength. Being in recovery is a positive thing, it means that you have elected to fight the battle, not just continue along in your addictions. Continuing to enslave oneself to whatever sickness is destroying your life, is unacceptable.

I decided not to live on my knees. The way I see it, if a person chooses to crawl, thats weak.

Mark


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## shihansmurf (Jun 6, 2009)

JDenver said:


> GETTING TO THE ORIGINAL POST -
> 
> My own experience just gave me some insight into something.
> 
> ...



Yeah, there was a different intent of this thread wasn't there?

MA training alone has a weird point of diminishing return for a lot of practitioners. At first the movements are alien and the body struggles to perform them correctly so the work outs are a lot harder. As the Art gets internalized the movements get quite a bit easier, this coupled with the fact that in most martial arts classes there is a lot of start and stop activity to allow the teacher to explain things it makes MA alone pretty poor as far as a cardio activity goes. As silly as I found the whole Tae Bo thing, I tried it a couple f times and I gotta admit that its a good workout. I think that adding more cardio elements o most martial arts classes would help.

Mark


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## bluekey88 (Jun 6, 2009)

You're right...it is a very fine distinction.  I have issues with drugs and alcohol.  growing up, no one in my family had those problems.  I didn't realize i was an addict until after that first drink.  I wouldn't say I was weak...all my friends were drinking.  I wasn't even being particularly risky in my behavior.  Problem was that once started, it was very hard to stop.  Maybe it's just semantics, but I find it veyr hard to hold someone accoutable for a trait that they had very little control in acquiring 9be it genetics, trauma, what have you).  We all have to work with the cards we've been dealt in life...it's jsut that oftentimes, we don't know we're holding jokers until after it's too late.

i think we're closer in philosophy than not.  

Peace,
Erik


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## Zakky (Jun 6, 2009)

> We all have to work with the cards we've been dealt in life...it's jsut that oftentimes, we don't know we're holding jokers until after it's too late.


 So true. Well said Erik, excellent post.


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## matt.m (Jun 6, 2009)

shihansmurf said:


> matt.m,
> 
> I am a professional soldier with three combat deployments since 2003. I have Bronze Star with a "V" device and two Purple Hearts. I have risked my life for my country, killed men in combat, and lost soldiers.
> 
> ...


 

Mark,
Thanks for your service. What is your branch and M.O.S.? Are you in braces for mobility? Do you have P.T.S.D.? Oh wait, you are cured......so you were cured of a mental disease that there is no cure for.....only denial. I have been dealing with it since 94 so don't tell me. Anyway, there is no x-marine unless it was adishonorable. Funny, In Hati etc. we went in lit the place up and secured the area so the members of the Army could set up tents and serve chow. The problem with us strong willed military folk is that we just have to be right. I was that way until I left the Marines 12 yrs. ago and see how the P.T.S.D. wards and prostethics units are filled with the Marines who were fired upon. Combat is indeed ugly, I know I have that t-shirt plus some. I was the N.C.O. that got the letters from mom saying "Keep Johnny Safe." Yep my attitude on mental toughness is more "Survival" than "Hard Core". But I digress, I am not going to have a pee up the tree contest with you. I just know that living through a helicopter crash and being one of the only survivors after being shot down in africa is a big deal.

I was an N.C.O. who has seen a lot of lost life and hurt.  "Mental Toughness" is as much a catchphrase as "Army Strong" and "Pain Is Weakness Leaving The Body." 

Also spare me the lost land mines, bombs, etc in the middle east. Their is more unaccounted for in Bosnia, Albania, Kosovo than anywhere else in the world. It was true then and it is true now. 

Holding people accountable for their own physical fitness isnt your job, you thinking so makes you a jackass. So tell me man, what's your b.m.i.? What is your body fat percentage. Ya know, unless you are an olympic champion or Mr. Olympia, world champion of something you have no room to talk. That is your superiority complex coming out. I was a member of the Marine Judo and Wrestling teams, I decided to try and help not shun others. This is what I think you were doing.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 6, 2009)

JDenver said:


> To suggest that compulsive eating means that you are weak minded is to also suggest that a compulsive gambler, heroin addict, smoker, and alcoholic all lack mental toughness.


Firstly, nobody said weak minded as I recall.  And the compulsive gambler has a lack of mental toughness in that area.  

The heroin addict's mental toughness is eroded by the drug, so yes, they lack mental toughness as a result of the drug.  

Same for the smoker and the alcoholic.  These areas are areas where those persons' mental toughness is lacking, even though they may have it in abundance in other areas.

A compulsive eater has an issue with being able to resist the urge to overeat.  Thus they lack mental toughness in that paricular area.  



JDenver said:


> Addictive behaviour has nothing to do with your will or mental toughness.


Actually, it very much has to do with your will, though depending upon the behavior in question, chemical dependency and physiological issues can also be a factor.

Daniel


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## thetruth (Jun 6, 2009)

WOW!!!  Hasn't this discussion got heated in a short time.    I'm not an addict by any definition so I am not going to assume that all addicts are weak minded however I will just say one thing.    Was it not a choice to have the first smoke or shot of heroin?    Regardless of how easily someone can quit they clearly made a choice in the first place.  Also if 1 person can quit and be considered strong willed in doing so doesn't that by it's very nature make those who can't quit not as strong willed?

Also on the fat thing again.   This clearly comes from poor choice a vast majority of the time.  Very few people have gland issues or food addiction or and other medical issues that cause it.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## yorkshirelad (Jun 6, 2009)

First of all, there are numerous pleasantly plump, rotund....ok  fat martial artists, who have not only proved their worth as teachers, but who were top notch in their sport. Tom Kelly, Frank Trejo, Ron Chapel, Mas Oyama, Chojun Miyagi and even Ed Parker can be put in the 'fat' category, but they are/were top notch teachers and practitioners.
I don't drink (often), don't smoke, don't do drugs, don't gamble and train every day, but there are facets of my personality that may be considered 'weak'. For instance, I run up to six miles per day, but take me for a hike in the mountains with a 60lb pack and you'll probabaly get me crying like a six year old girl. Am I weak, YES, in the mountain hiking department. I like to spar hard and in the past I loved taking offense at idiots and starting stupid fights. Then again, give me an M16 and throw me in a combat team against a group of pissed off Taliban in Kabul and I'd probably **** myself and drop like a pair of knickers. Am I weak, in the "engaging pissed off Taliban ' department, yes. 
We can all pick out pieces of people's character or body shape and make judgements, but it doesn't mean those judgements are correct.
I had an uncle, who sadly died in '07. He was hardworking and built a small business up in a small town in Co Kerry,Ireland to the point were many people relied on it to make a living. He sacrificed his health for those people and his family. He had little time to do anything other than work and when he ate, he would eat whatever he could get his hands on in the little time he had. He was fat and out of shape, but I never saw anyone more disciplined and hardworking than him. If I had heard anyone who saw him say "I'm not a fan of fat", I would've gotten quite angry.
My brother was on prednisone for years as a kid, because of his asthma. The drug made him balloon in weight. His face was bloated and working out was hard, because he had trouble breathing and osteopirosis in his legs because of the medication. I suppose he was weak also.
I'm not getting a Ssmurf in this post. I know you are speaking from experience, have served your country and have battled weight yourself. I just think that we all have to look at each case seperately. Of course there are fat people who are undisciplined, but there are thin people that are just as undisciplined. matt, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, who cares, your all heros in my book, Shihan Smurf, you and Bill. Kudos gentlemen.


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## JDenver (Jun 6, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The heroin addict's mental toughness is eroded by the drug, so yes, they lack mental toughness as a result of the drug........
> 
> Daniel



Certainly, in some instances, by sheer will power, some may overcome personal issues.  Shades of grey I suppose.  But I'll also stick with what mental health practicioners know - that addiction is a disease.


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## teekin (Jun 6, 2009)

Ohhhh Noooo SSmurf isn't getting off so easy. Mr. Smurf I am heavily addicted, hardwired in fact to a number of psycho-active drugs. My personality changes in a big way when I take these, (or if I don't ) and I do so to make my life easier. Could I give them up, yah, I guess so, but you know what, I don't want to. Judge away! They do make my life easier, and if that in YVHO makes me weak so be it.
lori


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 7, 2009)

JDenver said:


> Certainly, in some instances, by sheer will power, some may overcome personal issues. Shades of grey I suppose. But I'll also stick with what mental health practicioners know - that addiction is a disease.


...which causes one to suffer a weakness in a specific area or set of areas, and generally requires more than sheer willpower to overcome.

In any case, the issue of fat is not generally one of compulsive eating or addiction.  It is generally the result of our individual lifestyles, be they chosen, thrust upon us, or a bit of both.

Daniel


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## bluekey88 (Jun 7, 2009)

shihansmurf said:


> Yeah, there was a different intent of this thread wasn't there?
> 
> MA training alone has a weird point of diminishing return for a lot of practitioners. At first the movements are alien and the body struggles to perform them correctly so the work outs are a lot harder. As the Art gets internalized the movements get quite a bit easier, this coupled with the fact that in most martial arts classes there is a lot of start and stop activity to allow the teacher to explain things it makes MA alone pretty poor as far as a cardio activity goes. As silly as I found the whole Tae Bo thing, I tried it a couple f times and I gotta admit that its a good workout. I think that adding more cardio elements o most martial arts classes would help.
> 
> Mark


 
Having said my piece on the other stuff...I will say that while MA activities did get me in shape inbitially...their biggest benefit was the motivation they provided to engage in other health related activities.  In order to do well in the MA, I needed better fitness...that led me to go ot the gym more and lift and such...to enagge in more cardio, tha tin turn made me look harder at my diet and make changes there....that imporved my MA and led to new goals (like competing) which led to betetr training and better diet...etc.  Wouldn't have bothered with the gym and diet were it not for MA.

Peace,
Erik


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## Bruno@MT (Jun 7, 2009)

I would never call addicts weak minded. What I would say is that they need more than average willpower to stay away from whatever it is they are addicted to.

For example, I am alleric to strawberry. I once had a violent allergic reaction to it that could have killed me. I don't even remember what it tastes like, but I find the smell alone revolting. I don't need much willpower to stay away from strawberries, even when I am hungry.
Otoh, someone who thinks strawberry is the best taste in the world would have to exert a lot of willpower to stay away from a plate of strawberries when he is hungry.

1 scenario: 2 different persons, 2 different amounts of willpower.
Whether your vice is the taste of good food / drink, or the chemical reaction of your brain to chocolate, or something else... if you have to eat or drink to do it, then you have to have much more willpower than the average Joe in order to stay lean.


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## terryl965 (Jun 7, 2009)

Here is another twist to this fit **** you all talk about because of fat people, they all should be in shape because they are Martial Artist but yet I see so many that smoke like a ****ing smoke house and drink until they cannot see. Does this not have any less value to ones health? Does this not cause liver failure, lung disease and other long term effects? Why is it lets attack the overwieght people, it makes me sick when I see a instructor light up but who am I to say stop they are adults and choose to live there life in this manner. What about the ones that take enhancement drugs to build that chisel body and please do not tell me it is all natural, does that not contane long term effects as well? So please that your disgusting attitudes about instructors being over wieght and put it where the sun does not shine. I for one would like to see some of you when you have been beat on for 40 pkus years and the training we did back in those days would be consider child abuse, OK I am done and off my soapbox and will get back in line with the thread just had to point some stuff out.

Have a wonderful smoke free, alcohol free and fat free day


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## geezer (Jun 7, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> ...which causes one to suffer a weakness in a specific area or set of areas, and generally requires more than sheer willpower to overcome.
> 
> In any case, the issue of fat is not generally one of compulsive eating or addiction.  It is generally the result of our individual lifestyles, be they chosen, thrust upon us, or a bit of both.
> 
> Daniel



I'd have to agree. 

BTW-- regarding the relationship between "willpower" and addiction. My personal observations have been different from Mark's. My big brother is a tough little guy. He's 5'3" and will always be my "Big Brother" --that pretty well describes his achievements. He was a State Champion wrestler, an Alpinist who did some hairy-*** ascents including big faces in the Alps and Sea-Cliffs in England. Academically, he worked his way through an Ivy League education and a fellowship to Oxsford, and career wise he has done well too. Growing up, I was never tough enough mentally or physically to keep up with him. He was always the guy with the _willpower._

On the other hand, he has also struggled through alcoholism and tobacco addiction in a way that I never had to. I'm way more laid back. In my youth I drank, smoked cigarettes, used weed, and made other stupid choices. But when I matured a bit, I left all that behind. It was no big deal. Didn't take a lot of willpower. Heck I don't even have the _willpower_ to keep the lawn mowed! 

My point? Sometimes people with a lot of willpower and drive, who are leaders and risk-takers struggle more with addictive behaviors than the rest of us. It's not just about mental toughness or will.


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## shihansmurf (Jun 7, 2009)

matt.m said:


> Mark,
> Thanks for your service. What is your branch and M.O.S.? Are you in braces for mobility? Do you have P.T.S.D.? Oh wait, you are cured......so you were cured of a mental disease that there is no cure for.....only denial. I have been dealing with it since 94 so don't tell me. Anyway, there is no x-marine unless it was adishonorable. Funny, In Hati etc. we went in lit the place up and secured the area so the members of the Army could set up tents and serve chow. The problem with us strong willed military folk is that we just have to be right. I was that way until I left the Marines 12 yrs. ago and see how the P.T.S.D. wards and prostethics units are filled with the Marines who were fired upon. Combat is indeed ugly, I know I have that t-shirt plus some. I was the N.C.O. that got the letters from mom saying "Keep Johnny Safe." Yep my attitude on mental toughness is more "Survival" than "Hard Core". But I digress, I am not going to have a pee up the tree contest with you. I just know that living through a helicopter crash and being one of the only survivors after being shot down in africa is a big deal.



Matt,
  Thank you for your service and your sacrifice. No matter what else transpires in this conversation between you and I, know that I consider you to be one of my brothers, like anyone else that has ever worn the uniform.

 I am Staff Sergeant(P) in the Army. Nowadays I work in M.I., during my first two deployments I was a 19D,  cav scout.  I don't have braces, although I do have a pin in my knee(Track roll over), and a plate in my skull(IED, I got to be unconsious for three weeks from that one), and I took a bullet through the right side of my chest. I still suffer with  PTSD. I simply took control of my eating habits. It was difficult, but I was able to do so. The compulsive eating was symptomatic of the problem, it was how I, as the weak willed piece of crap that I was being at the time, coped. I decided to stop being a slave. I had a rude wake up call, I got to see exactly how out of shape I had become.  It was a galvanizing moment for me. It isn't denial...so , to paraphrase you, I've been living with this since 2003, so don't tell me.

Am I in denial, no. I still have a few other associated problems with the PTSD that I struggle to work through, I have a damn good handle on this particular problem though. But maybe I don't, after all since according to most of the upset people in this thread force of will and self-discipline don't have any bearing on our habits I must still be compulsively eating. Its good to know that all of the work I out into changing this problem is moot.
We are not automotons, all of our actions are controled by choice, therefore our will and self-control determine what we do. 

Wait, of course that can't be the case. Somene else was holding me down and forcing me to eat cheeseburgers. Man, I'm going find that guy and have a talk with him.



 I was in Fallujah in 2004 when we turned the AO over to the Marines. Funny that, for all of the bravado of the USMC, most of the heavy lifting has been born by us.Nice dig with the Haiti reference.

I didn't imply that your service, and the helicopter crash wasn't a big deal. Before you mentioned them, I didn't know about them. Hell, I didn't even know that you had been a marine untill this conversation. That's the point, though. You and I don't know each other. The fact that you elected to fire off a condescending, "Some of us served our country, went to combat, and seen things you couldn't possibly fathom", comment, given my service pissed me off so I fired back. The arrogance in your attitude was stunning, yet you have the gall to chastise me for having a "superiority complex".

Pot, meet kettle.



> Also spare me the lost land mines, bombs, etc in the middle east. Their is more unaccounted for in Bosnia, Albania, Kosovo than anywhere else in the world. It was true then and it is true now.



Not sure what this has to do with anything, but in couterpoint, Iraq has more IED attacks and direct fire casualties than anywhere in the world. For someone that didn't want to get in a pee up the tree contest, you seemd to fire of a really interesting factoid. You've been to Bosnia, yes? 



> Holding people accountable for their own physical fitness isnt your job, you thinking so makes you a jackass. So tell me man, what's your b.m.i.?



Actually, for a platoon of 22 people that I serve as the platoon sergeant for, holding people accountable for their physical fitness(to include meeting height/weight standards) is part of my job.Thanks for letting me off the hook for that, though. I'll call up my First Sergeant and let him know I can't pt my soldiers because matt.s, says it isn't my job. 

 It is also to a lesser extent, part of my job for the students I teach shotokan to, what with martial arts being a physical endevor and all. I know its heretical around these parts to think that a martial arts teacher should be in shape and expect his students to be so, but I tend to that.

Now, other than those people, I agree with you. I couldn't care less what people do to themselves. As I've said many times already in this thread I don't go up to random fat people and launch into tirades about how they are harming themselves with their habits. I leave drunks alone unless they are posing an immediate danger to themselves or others(i.e. I won't let one drive, for example) but I've put more than one of my soldiers into the Army Substance Abuse Program due to problem drinking. I leave drug addicts alone, unless they are posing a danger to me or others.  The only time I express my opinion to these sorts of ppeople are when I am asked for input and assistance. See, I think the best way to help someone isn't to sugar coat the facts of what they are doing. Making them accountale for their actions is, while not pleasent, an absolute requisite for them to affect the changes that they are looking to facilitate.

If this means I'm a jackass, the so be it.

My B.M.I. is 13%. I was at 24% a year ago. I want to hit 10% Whats yours?



> Ya know, unless you are an olympic champion or Mr. Olympia, world champion of something you have no room to talk.


 
Sure I do. I have lots of room to talk, I was one of the fat, slovenly out of shape tubs that took positive control of his diet and exercise habits and was was acordingly able to affect significant change in my fitness and health. The mindset of needing to be at the pinacle of performance in a field inorder to be able to offer critique, advice, and example is asanine.

Let me ask you, you were a judo player, right. Were you an olympian? Was your coach? Maybe, but if not does your lack of olympian or world champion status mean that you are not qualified to teach osoto-gari? How about offer training tips? Or tell a less experienced judo player when they are making errors?

As an aside if the requirements to be able to criticize behavior in others is peak performance, what are your qualifications for critiquing my viewpoint? 




> I was a member of the Marine Judo and Wrestling teams, I decided to try and help not shun others. This is what I think you were doing.



Impressive. I've won several Army combative tournaments, and two Golden Gloves titles in my youth, so you know what that means?

Absolutely nothing in refrence to our discussion. 

For someone that is dead set against a pissing contest you seem to wanna pull out our tool an awfull lot. Simple fact of the matter is this, I don't see things in the way you. I think that people are capable of controling themselve and are not slaves to their problems. You sure don't seem to think that way. It has nothing to do with shunning people, I am willing to do whatever I can to help people that ask for it, I just don't think that the best way is patting them on the back and saying "There, there, your problems are not your responsibility. Someone else did all this to you. Maybe we can find a way to help you that doesn't involve you being accountable for your actions."



> That is your superiority complex coming out.



I seem to be in good company.


Mark


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## shihansmurf (Jun 7, 2009)

bluekey88 said:


> Having said my piece on the other stuff...I will say that while MA activities did get me in shape inbitially...their biggest benefit was the motivation they provided to engage in other health related activities.  In order to do well in the MA, I needed better fitness...that led me to go ot the gym more and lift and such...to enagge in more cardio, tha tin turn made me look harder at my diet and make changes there....that imporved my MA and led to new goals (like competing) which led to betetr training and better diet...etc.  Wouldn't have bothered with the gym and diet were it not for MA.
> 
> Peace,
> Erik



Good point, the competition side of the MA is a great motivator for getting into a good fitness routine. Glad to hear your MA training lead to halthier lifestyle choices.
Mark


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## JourneymanDave (Jun 7, 2009)

I think I was somewhat misinterpreted, what I am talking about is 10-15% body fat here rather than elite athletes around 5% or less.  Also your fitness and stamina being pretty much equal either way.

also, just an opinion here, but I don't think its really fair to compare the addictions of compulsive eating, versus a substance that is physically and mentally as say heroin.  how many people have lost their jobs, homes, and families to compulsive eating really?
Yes, it was an elective choice to begin using in the first place, but stopping is a whole other ball park. 

I speak from personal experience as I am a recovering addict.
I have never really heard of anyone being able to stop using using willpower alone.  Its not about shirking accountability or responsibility, its just that perhaps you are looking at the wrong kind of willpower. If one wants to stop using it takes tremendous willpower and courage to admit it and ask for help.  

The Japanese have a quote I like on this

First, the man takes a drink,
then the drink takes a drink,
and then the drink takes the man.

If you really do still feel that it just boils down willpower alone,
at least try to be openminded enough to go to an open AA/NA meeting (you do not have to be an addict to attend open meetings) and voice this opinion.

you will not be attacked, as this is one of the biggest misconceptions on addiction out there.

just remember "You can't measure the world by your own yardstick." -Yiddish proverb


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## Cryozombie (Jun 7, 2009)

JourneymanDave said:


> also, just an opinion here, but I don't think its really fair to compare the addictions of compulsive eating, versus a substance that is physically and mentally as say heroin. how many people have lost their jobs, homes, and families to compulsive eating really?


 
Lets compare complusive eating to sex addiction instead, then I'd have somthing to say. Not that I am addicted to sex mind you, but I love to eat and I love to ****, and it would be a big toss up if I had to give up one or the other... both make me extremely happy in a world where little else does.  And if that Makes me weak, cuz I dont find happiness in... I dunno... fishing... then so be it.

Which begs the question, should one choose to be Fat and content, or skinny and miserable, to be socially acceptable?


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## JourneymanDave (Jun 8, 2009)

haha, I like the way you think cryozombie, but I would think bumpin uglies all the time would keep you skinny and happy 

I do agree that people should care alot less of what people think of them.
Haters tend to hate themselves the most


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 8, 2009)

Here is a question for everyone here, regardless of how you feel about the underlying causes of weight gain:

What do *you* mean when you say that either yourself or someone else is "fat"?

Everyone was saying how fat Britney Spears had gotten when she did her MTV appearance last year and showed her midrift.  By my estimation, she was still smokin' hot and looked perfectly fine.  She was not hanging out of her clothes; she looked fit.  

Jonathan Frakes, towards the end of Star Trek: The Next Generation, was a bit chunky, but I certainly would not have called him 'fat'.  I would say that he had gained some weight that was not muscle, but so what?  He sure was not ready to be Santa Claus.

John Goodman in his role last year as "Pops" in Speed Racer, however, was fat.  I still think that the man is a good actor and seeing his name on the marquee is a good sign when I am considering a movie.  I cannot say that I have ever seen him turn in a bad performance.  But yes, he is fat.

My point is that being fit does not mean being ripped.  According to my doctor, I am extremely fit.  When I raced bicycles and went to karate class five times a week and worked out in addition back when I was twenty, I had a body fat percentage of 5.  Today, it is definitely not five.  I do not know what my BMI was back then; I do not know that the term even existed.  Now, it is 18.5 roughly.  

My ideal weight is supposedly 180.  At 6'4, 180 is skinny.  At 202, I look good, feel good, and according to my doctor, I should get my full 120 years if I keep doing what I am doing.

I am not a health nut; I try to eat healthily, but I like to snack here and there and I do like the occasional cheesecake.  

As a culture (in the US, at least), we placed such a premium on being thin.  Not just fit, but specifically "thin."   Really, we do not need to look like sticks to be fit.  BMI has come up in this conversation, and honestly, BMI is not a good measure of overall fitness.  Not to say that it is useless, but it is not a measure of fitness in and of itself.  You *can* be skinny and be woefully out of shape too.  You can be a body builder and have a comparatively horrible BMI as well.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Jun 8, 2009)

Well I am fat at 5' 9" and coming in at 238, but I am down from about 270 and I am fit as far as working out everyday. I guess people would love to see everybody rib cage and only eat about 70 calories a day. I know back when I was thirty I was around 164 but over the last twenty years bad habilts and health issue have really been bad on me. It takes me longer to loose a pound than it does to gain one but that is life.


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 8, 2009)

Im 56, 190#, ideally Id like to be 10  15# lighter. I weight train, run and do MA. My Dr says that not to worry about BMI because I carry so much muscle. 15 years ago I was 200# and my waist was 4 smaller..good old days. Sigh.

At the gym I see people of all shapes and sizes working out. Weights, running whatever, and I think to myself, good for them. Unlike so many people they are trying to stay healthy. Being healthy is more important than being in shape, IMHO. 

I know it sounds strange but, you can almost tell if someone is overweight and healthy vs. someone overweight and unhealthy, there is a difference that seems to be projected by them.  

Someone once told me, it doesnt matter what you do, as long as you do something. That holds true in everything we do, dont sit around and moan, dont wish you were smarter, fitter, healthier, had a better job, better education, get up off your bum and do something/anything.

As long as you try, youre healthy.


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## JourneymanDave (Jun 9, 2009)

I personally don't like BMI much at all, it doesn't take alot into account, such as muscle mass.  I feel that body fat percentage is a much more reliable measuring stick so to speak.

I grabbed this chart straight off of wikipedia and it sounds reasonable to me:

Description:----Women----------Men
Essential fat----10&#8211;12%-------2&#8211;4%
Athletes---------14&#8211;20%-------6&#8211;13%
Fitness----------21&#8211;24%-------14&#8211;17%
Acceptable------25&#8211;31%------18&#8211;25%
Overweight-----32-41%-------26-37%
Obese-----------42%+---------38%+

understand though, that each person is different so it varies, but I think its real decent.

Fat to me is like Garfield the cat.  Or being too lazy to reach for the remote that fell between your feet.


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## shihansmurf (Jun 9, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Here is a question for everyone here, regardless of how you feel about the underlying causes of weight gain:
> 
> What do *you* mean when you say that either yourself or someone else is "fat"?
> 
> ...


 
I gotta say I agree with you 100%

I'm going to weigh back in on this issue in a way that is hopefully less incendiary. Way back in my first post, I spoke about the fact that the biggest issue for me was the way that the extra weight was impacting my performance of my martial art and my physical fitness, which is a component of my job. I think that that is the most important factor there.
A few extra pound aren't that big of a deal to  a martial artist provided that he can still execute the skill set at the level thet they are wanting to be able to.

That being said, an overweight martial artist that will assuredly perform the movements of his art better by shedding the pounds, presuming that the weight is made out of fat, he will also be better able to perform for extended periods of time compared to what he could with the extra pounds of fat. 

Using those caveats, I would say that to answer your question, that I don't think that there is a single magic definition of "FAT" that applies to every single individual or athlete. The term isn't universal or easy to nail down. It varies by the individual. Your examplea above relect that quite well. Some people can carry some extra weight without a serious impact on their health and performance, some cannot. I can't, I think that most can't , but there are some that can.

I think that we, as a culture do place an unhealty obsession on thinness as the yardstick and it is a polarizing issue, as this thread illustrates. I tend to fall in the camp of health obsessed, I know this, but I don't think that the skeleton with a bit of skin stretched across it look that is, to be honest deadly, is the ideal that anyone should be trying for. A ripped physique is a nice fitness goal but hardly  neccessary to possess to be in shape. Like most things a bit of common sense and perspective helps a great deal, and exercise can become just as dectructive and obsessive of a habit as anything else to include overeating, drinking, and drugs(especially as Terry pointed out when performance enhancing chemicals are added into the mix).Self control in this, as in everthing else, is essential.

Cheesecake is awesome, I just don't indulge in the amounts I onced did. Although a couple of weeks ago I got introduced to  Key Lime Cheesecake and I could see how that could spell trouble for me.

Mark


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## shihansmurf (Jun 9, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Here is another twist to this fit **** you all talk about because of fat people, they all should be in shape because they are Martial Artist but yet I see so many that smoke like a ****ing smoke house and drink until they cannot see. Does this not have any less value to ones health? Does this not cause liver failure, lung disease and other long term effects? Why is it lets attack the overwieght people, it makes me sick when I see a instructor light up but who am I to say stop they are adults and choose to live there life in this manner. What about the ones that take enhancement drugs to build that chisel body and please do not tell me it is all natural, does that not contane long term effects as well? So please that your disgusting attitudes about instructors being over wieght and put it where the sun does not shine. I for one would like to see some of you when you have been beat on for 40 pkus years and the training we did back in those days would be consider child abuse, OK I am done and off my soapbox and will get back in line with the thread just had to point some stuff out.
> 
> Have a wonderful smoke free, alcohol free and fat free day


 

I agree with you on the smoking and excessive drinking issue. My biggests problem with martial art instructors that are overweigt comes when they stand in front of a class and tout all of these benefits of martial art training like fitness and such wile being grossly over weight. On a similar note, I have a problem with any instructor standing up infron of a class and preaching about the discipline that one can learn fom the study of the martial arts whilst displaying a gross level of indiscipline in their own life, it is the hypocricy of it that bothers me. I was guilty of myself  so I affected the needed changes.

Mark


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 9, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Here is another twist to this fit **** you all talk about because of fat people, they all should be in shape because they are Martial Artist but yet I see so many that smoke like a ****ing smoke house and drink until they cannot see. Does this not have any less value to ones health? Does this not cause liver failure, lung disease and other long term effects? Why is it lets attack the overwieght people, it makes me sick when I see a instructor light up but who am I to say stop they are adults and choose to live there life in this manner.


For one, not not *all* of us are saying the same thing on this subject.

And since this thread was specifically about fat, it is unlikely that the subject of smoking and alcohol would come up, though as a segue, beer, ale, malt liquor, and some other alcoholic beverages contain a lot of empty calories and will certainly contribute to a weight problem.

So, if you (the general you, not you Terry) knock a few back after class or on frequent basis, even you are not getting wasted, it is impacting your caloric intake in a big way. 

Conversely, a lot of people gain weight when they quit smoking; apparently, smokers do not snack as much? Models also smoke to stay thin, as nocotine boosts the heartrate. Of course, smoking is full of its own inherent health risks.

Whether or not you are involved in martial arts, smoking is just plain silly and taking it up in the first place is just plain stupid, especially if you have taken it up within the past forty four years after they started putting surgeon general warnings on the darned packages back in 1965.

Smoking elevates the heartrate and constricts blood vessels, thus making the heart work harder. They also have an adverse effect on one's breathing. Given that circulatory and respiratory systems are both taxed in the practice of a martial art, and indeed, any athletic event, the foolishness of smoking is self evident. 

But then, so what? 

The fact that smoking at all and drinking too much are unhealthy does not alter the effect that excess fat has on the human body, irrespective of how well one can still practice their art.



terryl965 said:


> What about the ones that take enhancement drugs to build that chisel body and please do not tell me it is all natural, does that not contane long term effects as well?


What about them? They are idiots who sacrifice their longterm health for quick benefits and competition victories, possibly risking legal consequences and sanctions from whatever organizing body they compete in. 

The fact that performance enhancing drugs are illegal and unhealthy does not alter the effect that excess fat has on the human body, irrespective of how well one can still practice their art.



terryl965 said:


> So please that your disgusting attitudes about instructors being over wieght and put it where the sun does not shine.


Not everyone's attitude is disgusting. To be honest, I do not know that any of the opinions expressed in this thread could be classified as disgusting, though I am not going to go through each response again to verify. 

Pretty much everyone, regardless of weight, seems to agree that excess fat is usually the result of greater caloric intake than exercise and that there are some people who have a weight gain for other reasons, such as genetics, medical complications, or medication for other maladies that have the side effect of adding weight.

I also would like to point out that a good number (not a majority, but a good number) of people who overeat do so due to depression and use food to self medicate, so to speak (eating makes them feel better) and generally choose comfort foods, such as macaronni & cheese, chips, fries, etc., all of which tend to be fattening.

Someone earlier pointed out economic reasons. Healthy food costs money and if you are unable to afford it, you eat what you can and deal with the consequences.



terryl965 said:


> I for one would like to see some of you when you have been beat on for 40 pkus years and the training we did back in those days would be consider child abuse,


I hear you. Though I do not have quite so many years in, I have enough to remember when that kind of training was commonplace. With the amount of training that I do, combined with my age, I do feel it and can relate.



terryl965 said:


> OK I am done and off my soapbox and will get back in line with the thread just had to point some stuff out.


Well, I think that what you pointed out is certainly legitimate and indeed, is food for at least two or three threads.



terryl965 said:


> Have a wonderful smoke free, alcohol free and fat free day


That is every day for smoking, as I am not nor have ever been a smoker, and most every day for drinking, as I drink very little.

As I stated earlier, the only time that I see excess weight as being an issue for a martial arts instructor to be specifically physically fit (as opposed to fit for fighting) is if the school literature touts physical fitness, specifically weight loss. And personally, I think that use of weight loss and fitness as a means of bringing in students has a negative impact on the martial arts because it brings in people who really have no intention of being competent aikidoka/hapkidoin/karateka/kendoka/taekwondoin/whatever; they just want to get into shape and do not want to go to the gym. By and large, these are the wrong type of customers unless your school is Taebo.

The above is just my opinion, though I try to be as objective as possible.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 9, 2009)

shihansmurf said:


> I think that we, as a culture do place an unhealty obsession on thinness as the yardstick and it is a polarizing issue, as this thread illustrates. I tend to fall in the camp of health obsessed, I know this, but I don't think that the skeleton with a bit of skin stretched across it look that is, to be honest deadly, is the ideal that anyone should be trying for. A ripped physique is a nice fitness goal but hardly neccessary to possess to be in shape.


One of the problems with thinness being a yardstick is that it creates a false premise that being this is automatically being fit. Sometimes people have a false confidence just because they are thin when in fact, an overweight and seemingly fat person who exercises may have better cardio and cholestorol numbers.

Also, some people simply cannot be thin. They are not built for it and will not attain it. Not that they will be 'fat', but they will always be stocky. My older son is like that. He is lighter than I am and almost the same height, but a stockier build and will always have a bit of a chin. He lifts regularly and goes to class multiple times a week and practices at home, but he just cannot get ripped like he wants.

Speaking being ripped, human beings are not supposed to be ripped. We carry a degree of fat in order to have reserves for when we need to exert ourselves more than usual for an extended period of time and to provide some insulation.

Without some fat, our bodies will canibalize themselves. And if you live in a colder climate and do not like being cold, a ripped look is counterproductive unless you are alright with a higher heating bill.

Also, fat is not automatically unattractive. Some of the most attractive women that I know and have known would be considered fat by most people, and at least two were definitely fat. At the same time, being thin does not automatically make one good looking either.

Lastly, as we age, it is more difficult to burn calories. For some women, menopause causes changes that make it impossible for them to be 'thin' afterward, even with a good diet and a lot of hard work. For people in general, as we age, our bodies not only burn calories less efficiently, but for us MA-ists, accumulated injuries can also make certain exercises less feasible. Not to mention arthritis and other maladies that make working out more challenging.

Really, it is important to be as healthy as you can be for the size that you are and then establish more specific goals from there.

Daniel


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## zDom (Jun 9, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Some of the most attractive women that I know and have known would be considered fat by most people, and at least two were definitely fat.



But would they not have been even BETTER looking if they had a leaner, more toned build?


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## shihansmurf (Jun 9, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Also, fat is not automatically unattractive. Some of the most attractive women that I know and have known would be considered fat by most people, and at least two were definitely fat. At the same time, being thin does not automatically make one good looking either.
> 
> Lastly, as we age, it is more difficult to burn calories. For some women, menopause causes changes that make it impossible for them to be 'thin' afterward, even with a good diet and a lot of hard work. For people in general, as we age, our bodies not only burn calories less efficiently, but for us MA-ists, accumulated injuries can also make certain exercises less feasible. Not to mention arthritis and other maladies that make working out more challenging.
> 
> ...


 
1. True. Scarlette Johansen springs to mind.  The starved look may work for some but I'm not a fan. I like healthy.

2. Age and injuries do indeed factor into ones levels of fitness, but given the vast range of training option out there for low impact cardio I tend to think that if a person sets physical fitness as a priority then they will be able to attain it. Now a guy in his fourties most likely isn't going to be able to achieve the same type of results a a man in his twenties,  that would require herculean effort and a peculiar combination of genetics so unlikely that its as close to impsooible as you can get, but they can still achieve very good results if they wish to. Guys like Randy Courture are the exception. 

3. On your last point, I wholeheartedly agree.  Well said.

Mark


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 9, 2009)

zDom said:


> But would they not have been even BETTER looking if they had a leaner, more toned build?


No.  They are perfect as is.  I am sure that they would be just as good looking if they were leaner and more toned, but it would have been a different kind of attractive; not better.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Jun 9, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> For one, not not *all* of us are saying the same thing on this subject.
> 
> And since this thread was specifically about fat, it is unlikely that the subject of smoking and alcohol would come up, though as a segue, beer, ale, malt liquor, and some other alcoholic beverages contain a lot of empty calories and will certainly contribute to a weight problem.
> 
> ...


 

I would rep you but I need to spead some love around, great thread and comments.


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 9, 2009)

All I got to say is...


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## terryl965 (Jun 9, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> All I got to say is...


 

Looks like he is fit to me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 :rofl:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 9, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> All I got to say is...


Godzilla would approve!

Daniel


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## Cryozombie (Jun 9, 2009)

Not that this contributes anything productive to the discussion, but I have to.





 
Enjoy.


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## dancingalone (Jun 10, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> All I got to say is...



Wow.  I believe I would simply bow off the mat faced with a monster like that with grappling rules only.  

I've seen some other funny pictures where a guy is pinned by another biggie, but his face is covered by his opponent's armpit.  Yucky.


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## prairiemantis (Jun 11, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> Not that this contributes anything productive to the discussion, but I have to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lmao


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 11, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Wow. I believe I would simply bow off the mat faced with a monster like that with grappling rules only.
> 
> I've seen some other funny pictures where a guy is pinned by another biggie, but his face is covered by his opponent's armpit. Yucky.


I would be willing to contest with a guy that big, but I would pay him off in advance to keep my face out of his pits, with the promise of an equal amount afterward if he follows through.

Daniel


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## JourneymanDave (Jun 12, 2009)

win or lose, I'd try em. We only learn by constantly challenging ourselves


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