# Chi Sau vs. The Flurry



## mook jong man (Sep 25, 2010)

If any of you blokes practice a four corner deflection drill , you might want  to ramp up the intensity by trying this.

In the typical four corner deflection drill the partner starts attacking his Wing Chun partner by throwing -

1. A left roundhouse punch to the head .
2. Then a right roundhouse punch to the head.
3. Then a left uppercut punch to the stomach.
4. Then a right uppercut punch to the stomach.

Its called four corner because its like the attacks are coming from the four points of a square .

The partner does these attacks one after the other in sequence , the Wing Chun defender counter attacks  each strike with a deflection and his own centerline punch.

Use whatever deflection you use in your lineage to counter such punches , and work on snapping your punch out as soon as you see the attack coming.

The attacking partner starts off slowly throwing his punches taking quite a circular path , then he gradually starts attacking faster and faster and making his punches less and less circular.

But not aimed directly down the centerline , you already are used to straightline attacks.

As he attacks faster and faster , the paths his punches are taking are becoming tighter and tighter , you will find that it becomes quite difficult to execute simultaneous counter attack , and keep up with his hands.

   The normal avenue for you to attack through becomes a lot smaller and his strikes seem to be all coming in at once.
In short it becomes a chaotic mess of hands , which is what we want .
Something similar to a brawl.
Its important that your partner is attacking you as fast as he possibly can.

Now at this point you could just start blasting straight through with chain punching and trying to run him down and overwhelm him with speed , not a bad option at all .

But you could already do that before couldn't you ?

Why not take the harder option and try to increase your skill level , it takes a bit of courage walking forward  into the mouth of the shark.
But one things for sure while his arms are free and you are hanging back not directly affecting his balance , you are eventually going to be hit.

Just go forward and try and intercept both his arms with your Chi sau this is what it is for , start rotating , stick to them , control them and strike through using your elbow positions to keep yourself safe from his strike as you hit through , tie him up and shut him down.

You will probably end up with both hands on the inside , doesn't matter rotate , stick , gain control and strike through
Keep moving forward all the way to gain stick and force him off balance with your stance.

After a bit of practice you will gain confidence in walking in against punches and find that you can use your Chi sau as a rotating type of shield against some very hard to deal with strikes. 

  You will also have gone up a notch in skill level rather than just trying to blast your way through his arms with chain punching.


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## CRCAVirginia (Sep 25, 2010)

Good drill Mook:

We use the 4 corner drill as well, I like to have small focus mitts on while attacking that way if they miss a block they don't get hurt but still feel some pain.  I know we practice centerline punches but they seem the hardest to stop for most students when you throw them in at random in the 4 corner drill.


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## mook jong man (Sep 25, 2010)

CRCAVirginia said:


> Good drill Mook:
> 
> We use the 4 corner drill as well, I like to have small focus mitts on while attacking that way if they miss a block they don't get hurt but still feel some pain. I know we practice centerline punches but they seem the *hardest to stop for most students when you throw them in at random in the 4 corner drill*.


 
Oh your definitely right there , in the course of four corner drills its great to throw a few random straight ones in , it teaches them to get there elbows back in quick and keep their guard up .

You can also do it the other way round and get them to defend the straight punches in sequence and throw in four corner strikes at random.

Actually , working off the four corner sequence , its not a bad idea to add other stuff into it too like random arm grabs , double or single attempted throat grabs , back fists , low straight punches , even tackles or kicks , your only limited by your imagination really.

Its just for the purposes of this drill we want to be able to get inside the arms and control , but there is no reason you couldn't do it the other way and have the partner throw a crap load of really fast straight punches.

 Its just that you would maybe then go into Lap Sau instead  and try to apply something from there.

But thinking back on it , I can't remember seeing many street fights where someone has thrown straight punches of any description really.
Straight-ish yes , but still deviating from the centerline as we would see it.
They mainly tend to be fast and furious , lots of upper body torque , shoulder driven , circular type stuff that is off the centerline.


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## CRCAVirginia (Sep 25, 2010)

Another related drill from YJKYM is to have your partner throw centerline punches and you are pocking (is that a word  than he/she suddenly drops their hands and you do three chain punches, than they throw a hook.  So the whole loss of hand contact go straight in...

I have a nice forward pressure (energy) drill if anyone wants to hear about it...

I am a drill freak and have a book of drills that my Sifu gives all his instructors and ones that I have come up with...


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## mook jong man (Sep 25, 2010)

CRCAVirginia said:


> Another related drill from YJKYM is to have your partner throw centerline punches and you are pocking (is that a word  *than he/she suddenly drops their hands and you do three chain punches, than they throw a hook. So the whole loss of hand contact go straight in...*
> 
> *I have a nice forward pressure (energy) drill if anyone wants to hear about it...*
> 
> I am a drill freak and have a book of drills that my Sifu gives all his instructors and ones that I have come up with...


 
Anything where you are incorporating reflex and integrating attack and defence techniques into the one exercise  is all good stuff in my opinion.

A lot of the drills come from the org. I was involved with , but the majority I have had to come up with to help a student overcome a particular difficulty in their training.

So you may teach your students , but your students can also teach you to become a better teacher.

Now tell us about your forward pressure drill mate.


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## bully (Sep 25, 2010)

I would love you guys to do some videos of your training drills.

Seriously.


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## BloodMoney (Sep 25, 2010)

Nice man, yeah we drill 4 Corners a lot. A start a bit slow and simple, and without the punch at first, so new students can get the idea of Chit Sau/ Dai Sau. With more seniors then we speed it up, and introduce random attacks.

So what your saying is to mix it up gradually have those attacks get tighter? Nice idea, I think ill try it actually. I imagine in a pattern of left, right, left, right it would be okay but random attacks at full speed could get quite tricky (we do this kind of thing as a line training/multiple attacker drill already, but I like this version).

Thanks man. Any and all drills bring em on, I need more variation.



CRCAVirginia said:


> I have a nice forward pressure (energy) drill if anyone wants to hear about it...
> 
> I am a drill freak and have a book of drills that my Sifu gives all his instructors and ones that I have come up with...



Bring em all on man, I always enjoy hearing of new drills to try


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## CRCAVirginia (Sep 25, 2010)

From YJKYM I straight punch, my partner pock's and than gives me pressure, pushing straight into my center through his pock.  I use my cotton body (sinking of upper body) to let my arm come back towards my body while maintaining slight forward pressure.  (I don't collapse my elbow, but my arm will go backwards about 2 inches) my partner will than let go of the pressure and do a centerline punch (optional) with his other arm, my arm should shoot forward upon loss of contact.  Rinse and Repeat.

Vary your pock pressure and release time.

Hope this is clear


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## mook jong man (Sep 25, 2010)

bully said:


> I would love you guys to do some videos of your training drills.
> 
> Seriously.


 
Apart from being a bit of a Luddite Bully and painfully shy , I'm lucky to be able to operate our DVD player.
But more importantly , a video would reveal my identity to my former organisation that I was with and we didn't part on the best of terms .

 They would not take too kindly to me handing out their techniques and drills as they are very guarded in that respect , and they might take some sort of action against me.
And believe me I don't need that bloody hassle.

I don't care for that sort of political crap at all , I only care about training and improving , there shouldn't be any secrets , Wing Chun is hard enough to learn with out that sort of crap going on .

If I can help someone with their training I will , if you have the motivation to actually get off your **** and do some training then you deserve to be helped.

So for the above reasons Bully you will have to be content with the written word I'm afraid , I will try to be as descriptive as I can in my explanations , but like the law , the long arm of the academy or their lawyers can reach far and wide especially through the internet.


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## mook jong man (Sep 26, 2010)

BloodMoney said:


> Nice man, yeah we drill 4 Corners a lot. A start a bit slow and simple, and without the punch at first, so new students can get the idea of Chit Sau/ Dai Sau. With more seniors then we speed it up, and introduce random attacks.
> 
> *So what your saying is to mix it up gradually have those attacks get tighter? Nice idea, I think ill try it actually. I imagine in a pattern of left, right, left, right it would be okay but random attacks at full speed could get quite tricky (we do this kind of thing as a line training/multiple attacker drill already, but I like this version).*
> 
> ...


 
Don't mix it up with random for this drill mate , save the random stuff for the more regular 4 corner drills or random arms.
This ones pretty much about just improving your raw hand speed and then attempting to control his arms when you can't keep up with his hands any more.
Your stock standard 4 corner drill pretty much goes , he punches , you do your Dai Sau and punch or your Chit Sau and punch , at normal speed there will be a slight pause before he punches again allowing you to comfortably complete your counter attack with both hands.

In this drill he starts off normally , LEFT HIGH , RIGHT HIGH , THEN LEFT LOW , RIGHT LOW with big looping punches then he goes faster and faster and gradually bringing his punching trajectories in tighter and tighter.
_( the attacker still keeps the same sequence left , right ,left , right it just becomes a faster and tighter circle , till the punches all seem to be coming at once.)_

Pretty soon you find yourself struggling to keep up the pace with the normal Dai Sau / Jit Sau counter attacks , its starting to get very messy and your in danger of being hit so you must go forward using your Chi Sau to try and get inside his arms , stick to and control both of them and then strike through.

I suppose you could say that at first we are using our visually based reflexes and once they start to fail because the action is becoming way to fast , then we must move forward and gain contact to rely on our touch based reflexes.


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## Dantian (Sep 26, 2010)

I share the same lineage as you Mr. Mook, but we call it 4 gates.

Its also a great drill for developing "no impact collision contact" with the arms of the person your drilling with, by aiming to achieve that smooth "shearing" whilst deflecting strikes.

You also know if you've redirected the force incorrectly, if you wake up with forearm bruising the next morning.


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## bully (Sep 26, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Apart from being a bit of a Luddite Bully and painfully shy , I'm lucky to be able to operate our DVD player.
> But more importantly , a video would reveal my identity to my former organisation that I was with and we didn't part on the best of terms .
> 
> They would not take too kindly to me handing out their techniques and drills as they are very guarded in that respect , and they might take some sort of action against me.
> ...



No worries mate, its a shame the world is now so motivated with lawyers and money.
I always enjoy reading your posts so will just have to keep on using my brain a bit more, not such a bad thing!!
Its a shame my travels are not taking me closer to your part of the world, but lets hope one day they will and I can buy you an orange juice to say thanks for your posts on here.


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## mook jong man (Sep 26, 2010)

Here you go Bully  this video shows a bit of four corner deflection using Dai Sau and punch to deflect the punches to the head and Chit Sau and punch to deflect the punches to the stomach.





 
It is at 2:13 to about 2:15 on the video.
And some more at 2:43 with two blokes , this time the attackers throwing a few straight ones in as well 
The bloke is attacking the young lady in the sequence of right high , left high , right low , left low.

See how she manages to deflect and get her punch out at each of his attacks .
That is your basic four corner deflection drill , as the student becomes more proficient you would do it in a random sequence.

Later on you add straight punch attacks hi and low and it becomes six point deflection , if I add hi and low backfists it becomes something like 8 point deflection all done in a pre set sequence and then when they can handle it you do it random.

The thing I was describing is exactly the same drill but picture the guy in front of her gradually speeding up going as fast as he can , chaining his punches together , and punching in a gradually tighter trajectories.

She wont be able to keep up and to stop from getting hit she will have to move forward , get inside his hands and use her Chi Sau to stick and control his arms and try and strike through.

Thats all it is , does that help a bit to understand ?


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## graychuan (Sep 26, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Apart from being a bit of a Luddite Bully and painfully shy , I'm lucky to be able to operate our DVD player.
> *But more importantly , a video would reveal my identity to my former organisation that I was with and we didn't part on the best of terms .
> *



I completely understand.



mook jong man said:


> They would not take too kindly to me handing out their techniques and drills as they are very guarded in that respect , and they might take some sort of action against me.
> And believe me I don't need that bloody hassle.



As far as Im concerned my former 'organization' may as well try to trademark the color blue. Im not selling their name so I OPENLY practice what I want. Might not be the smartest attitude but its the only one this free human being cares to have.:soapbox:



mook jong man said:


> I don't care for that sort of political crap at all , I only care about training and improving , there shouldn't be any secrets , Wing Chun is hard enough to learn with out that sort of crap going on .



   Ditto!


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## mook jong man (Sep 26, 2010)

graychuan said:


> I completely understand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Well its a bit like a plumber or something earning his qualifications , graduating from a trade school , and then when he goes to set up his business , the trade school says "Oh by the way we own that knowledge that we have taught you , its ours and you can't teach it to anyone else , and you can't set up your own business".
You can imagine what a plumber would say to that.


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## geezer (Sep 26, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Well its a bit like a plumber or something earning his qualifications , graduating from a trade school , and then when he goes to set up his business , the trade school says "Oh by the way we own that knowledge that we have taught you , its ours and you can't teach it to anyone else , and you can't set up your own business".
> You can imagine what a plumber would say to that.



...or imagine that you earn a university degree, but have to pay royalties (association dues) to your university, and only espouse views identical to those of your former professors' or they will rescind your degree! That would be absurd and illegal, yet it's the kind of attitude that we see most of the time in martial arts associations. And it really holds us back.


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## mook jong man (Sep 26, 2010)

geezer said:


> ...or imagine that you earn a university degree, but have to pay royalties (association dues) to your university, and only espouse views identical to those of your former professors' or they will rescind your degree! That would be absurd and illegal, _*yet it's the kind of attitude that we see most of the time in martial arts associations. And it really holds us back*_.


 
It sure does , and its the reason you get more and more instructors breaking away from the main org. and starting up splinter groups.
 Teaching out of garages , parks , and privately , to get away from all the crap , the politics , the uniforms , rank and titles , grading fees , fees for this , fees for that etc.

Just small informal groups concentrating on what matters , the training , and trying to reach their full potential whatever that maybe in this art of Wing Chun.


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## yak sao (Sep 26, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> It sure does , and its the reason you get more and more instructors breaking away from the main org. and starting up splinter groups.
> Teaching out of garages , parks , and privately , to get away from all the crap , the politics , the uniforms , rank and titles , grading fees , fees for this , fees for that etc.
> 
> Just small informal groups concentrating on what matters , the training , and trying to reach their full potential whatever that maybe in this art of Wing Chun.


 


get out of my head


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## mook jong man (Sep 26, 2010)

yak sao said:


> get out of my head


 
It's not your mind I want big fella , its your body  :wink2:


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## yak sao (Sep 27, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> It's not your mind I want big fella , its your body :wink2:


 

masher


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## mograph (Sep 27, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Well its a bit like a plumber or something earning his qualifications , graduating from a trade school , and then when he goes to set up his business , the trade school says "Oh by the way we own that knowledge that we have taught you , its ours and you can't teach it to anyone else , and you can't set up your own business".
> You can imagine what a plumber would say to that.



If these martial arts organizations are so protective of their intellectual property, they should have a non-compete clause in the initial waiver.

Imagine how that would go over.


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## mook jong man (Sep 27, 2010)

mograph said:


> If these martial arts organizations are so protective of their intellectual property, they should have a non-compete clause in the initial waiver.
> 
> Imagine how that would go over.


 
They probably did in the case of mine , I think it was you couldn't leave and open your own school until you had reached the rank of 6th level.
Which is something like 20 years plus of continuous training.

But who joins up thinking they are one day going to become an instructor , I know I didn't.
It was more like I'll keep going to the gym and pumping iron and go to the Wing Chun a few nights a week and learn self defence.

Then slowly but surely over the years it worms its way into your life , if your not doing Wing Chun your thinking about it , you climb up the grades , become a junior instructor , and then a full instructor.

Next thing you know your teaching a bazillion classes a week at the school and spending more time there than what you do at home.


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## BloodMoney (Sep 27, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Don't mix it up with random for this drill mate , save the random stuff for the more regular 4 corner drills or random arms.
> This ones pretty much about just improving your raw hand speed and then attempting to control his arms when you can't keep up with his hands any more.
> Your stock standard 4 corner drill pretty much goes , he punches , you do your Dai Sau and punch or your Chit Sau and punch , at normal speed there will be a slight pause before he punches again allowing you to comfortably complete your counter attack with both hands.
> 
> ...



Ah yup I get you. Awesome, im gunna try this drill with some of the boys tomorrow night methinks, awesome


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## zepedawingchun (Sep 28, 2010)

graychuan said:


> . . . . As far as Im concerned my former 'organization' may as well try to trademark the color blue. . . . .


 
Sounds like Paris Hilton, she's sueing some card company (like Hallmark or or one of those companies) for putting her so called trademark phrase 'That's Hot' on a greeting card. Stupid.


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## mook jong man (Sep 28, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> Sounds like Paris Hilton, she's sueing some card company (like Hallmark or or one of those companies) for putting her so called trademark phrase 'That's Hot' on a greeting card. Stupid.


 
Paris Hilton would be lucky to be able to spell 'That's Hot' I reckon.


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