# Parker vs. Tracy Systems?



## jcraigking (Jan 19, 2006)

Can anyone tell me the differences between the Parker and Tracy systems? 

Please give me real information, not the "******'s system sucks!" commentary.

Thanks!


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## KenpoEMT (Jan 19, 2006)

I think that Tracy's Kenpo revolves around developing muscle memory (the system having more than 600 techniques).
EPAK revolves around exploring the concepts of motion. Each technique is an "idea" used for developing spontaneity.

Which is superior? I don't know.  I like EPAK because that is what I've been exposed to.  I like to think that both systems have great value.

There are Tracy people here who can expound about their side of the coin.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 19, 2006)

The claim of the Tracys is that they kept everything that they learned from Mr. Parker in the early days (mid 1950s to early 1960s).  Later, Mr. Parker began to change and make innovations to kenpo that the Tracys didn't agree with.  They chose to not follow Mr. Parkers changes, and instead kept the older system in tact.  They refer to their kenpo as "Traditional Kenpo."  In making changes, Mr. Parker eliminated some things, added some things, and changed some things. 

The formal curriculum of the Tracys consists of 10 Self Defense techniques for Yellow Belt; 30 each for Orange, Purple, Blue, Green, Brown 3-1, and Black 1-4; and 41 for 5th Black.  Most of the techniques for 5th black are additional variations on the earlier techniques.  Many of these techniques have several variations to them.  The formal number of techniques is 381, but the Tracys claim with all the variations it is about 600.  In my opinion, many of the techniques are repetitive.  Some techniques taught at Brown Belt are very very similar to techniques taught at say, blue belt, but they are given a new name and treated like something different.  In my opinion, many of the techniques are unrealistic, but there are also many solid, worthwhile techniques in the system.  I do feel that the number of techniques and variations makes for a cumbersome system.  It is just way too many to practice, much less be able to truly master.

Many of the kata are the same for both systems.  They had already been created by the time the Tracys split, and they kept them.  Each system may have some kata and sets that the other doesn't have, however.

I haven't studied EPAK, so I cannot comment on it.  I have heard various sources claim that the Tracy's system produces better fighters, but I have also heard people claim the opposite.

They Tracys claim that Mr. Parker eliminated much of the "true kenpo" (whatever that means) from what became EPAK, and that EPAK is no longer really kenpo, compared to the old style.  (I'm paraphrasing, so there is probably more to it than that).  The Tracys seem more concerned with lineage and tradition, then Mr. Parker was.  Mr. Parker was, I think, more concerned with looking for ways to improve the system.  Whether or not his changes actually lead to an improved system is something I cannot judge.

If you visit the Tracys website, they list a curriculum that has clearly adopted elements from other Chinese systems.  Rather than examining kenpo and looking for ways to improve it, I think they brought in elements of these other systems to perhaps broaden the system, and maybe to plug any holes that they perceived (this is my opinion and suspicion, I might be wrong about their reasons for bringing in this other material).


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## cloak13 (Jan 19, 2006)

Well, I'm not the most knowledgable about this topic but have had a workout session with Mr. Zach Atkins down in Lexington KY where we looked at AKKI material and Tracey material in a positive compare and contrast method not a "well my style's best so you should do my style."

First off I'd like to say that I really enjoyed working with Mr. Atkins and crew. I had never really dealt with Tracey Kenpo prior so it was a nice introduction. I found that one big difference in the Tracey material that hit me right away was the linear-ness. It reminded me a little of Shotokan in the use of straight lines and hard stances. Also, a big difference was the way they extended techniques as they progressed through the ranking system. It was like every couple of belts a technique would have a little more added to it. I like that approach because it seems to help internalize the base motion.

Again, as I've said there are better people field this question. These are just some of my observations from working out with a couple of Tracey guys. I'd say send your questions to Mr. Atkins. He usually hangs out around Kenponet. He's a really nice guy and is extremely knowledgable about his system. Also, if you get the chance, pick his brain a little about anatomy...another topic he knows pretty darn well.

Hope this helps,
Tim Kulp
Westminster, MD


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## jdinca (Jan 19, 2006)

Flying Crane had an excellent post but I would guess there's going to be some disagreement. 

From my experience at a school that is based in Tracy kenpo but has a number of other styles, including EPAK in it, I would say one of the main differences is the way movement is taught. Both systems are aiming for the same results, the path is somewhat different. The Tracy system uses techniques to teach the core concepts. The Tracy system does have a lot of repetetive variations, which is why we don't do all of them in our system. Even though EPAK was marketed as a business, as well as a MA, I think the Tracy system takes the business aspect a bit farther.

I'm curious to see how the EPAKers view the two systems.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 19, 2006)

jdinca said:
			
		

> Flying Crane had an excellent post but I would guess there's going to be some disagreement.
> 
> From my experience at a school that is based in Tracy kenpo but has a number of other styles, including EPAK in it, I would say one of the main differences is the way movement is taught. Both systems are aiming for the same results, the path is somewhat different. The Tracy system uses techniques to teach the core concepts. The Tracy system does have a lot of repetetive variations, which is why we don't do all of them in our system. Even though EPAK was marketed as a business, as well as a MA, I think the Tracy system takes the business aspect a bit farther.
> 
> I'm curious to see how the EPAKers view the two systems.


 
Good points and yes, Tracys are certainly business driven.  I think that was a lesson Mr. Parker learned from them, to some degree at least.


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## evenflow1121 (Jan 19, 2006)

I studied EPAK all my life but I know of two Tracy schools that were within the area I lived in several years back that produced very good fighters. The styles are somewhat different, and like flyingcrane said there are more techniques in the Tracy system than Parker's but the outcome is the same for both. Neither system is superior to the other, and I think that is one of the greatest misconceptions, Tracy is better or Parker is better none of that is accurate. I ve seen Tracy style students switch over to EPAK and never look back, like I ve seen EPAK students switch over to the Tracy System and never look back. A lot of it has to do with the student, his/her progression and how they grasp concepts of motion, some people like to have a little leeway or freedom to variate, others feel better if they have technique for every possible angles.


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## Sapper6 (Jan 19, 2006)

although i'd only studied EPAK for about a year before moving on, and never studied Tracy's, i don't know that i can offer much. 

of all the EPAK vs. Tracy's stuff i've ever read, i've most often found that the EPAK people are more respectful toward the Tracy stuff. on the other hand, i see alot of ill feeling coming out of the Tracy camp aimed toward the Parker people. why? because they sought change and improvement? kinda odd. the following link i've posted to a Tracy school proves my point. why do they feel this way?

http://www.tracyskenpokarate.com/Kenpo%20vs.%20American%20Kenpo.htm

there's alot of EPAK bashing in that article.  claiming Parker created AK as a religious mormon cult that hated blacks and women.

are these people on drugs?

after reading that article, i don't think i could find myself studying in a Tracy's school, ever.  the amount of disrespect toward a dead human being that has no way of defending himself is absurd.  it's disrespectful.  and all this only after Ed Parker had already died.

it's disgraceful.


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## jdinca (Jan 19, 2006)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> although i'd only studied EPAK for about a year before moving on, and never studied Tracy's, i don't know that i can offer much.
> 
> of all the EPAK vs. Tracy's stuff i've ever read, i've most often found that the EPAK people are more respectful toward the Tracy stuff. on the other hand, i see alot of ill feeling coming out of the Tracy camp aimed toward the Parker people. why? because they sought change and improvement? kinda odd. the following link i've posted to a Tracy school proves my point. why do they feel this way?
> 
> ...


 
Am I right that this was written by Will Tracy? Had he left out the religious/bigot stuff and toned down the obvious rancor, it would have been a much more provocative piece. 

There was obviously a huge falling out between Parker and some of his top students, i.e., the Tracy brothers. I hope the members here who trained under Parker and possibly know the other side of the story will weigh in.


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## Sapper6 (Jan 19, 2006)

jdinca said:
			
		

> Am I right that this was written by Will Tracy? Had he left out the religious/bigot stuff and toned down the obvious rancor, it would have been a much more provocative piece.
> 
> There was obviously a huge falling out between Parker and some of his top students, i.e., the Tracy brothers. *I hope the members here who trained under Parker and possibly know the other side of the story will weigh in.*


 
i hope so as well.


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## Jonathan Randall (Jan 19, 2006)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> although i'd only studied EPAK for about a year before moving on, and never studied Tracy's, i don't know that i can offer much.
> 
> of all the EPAK vs. Tracy's stuff i've ever read, i've most often found that the EPAK people are more respectful toward the Tracy stuff. on the other hand, i see alot of ill feeling coming out of the Tracy camp aimed toward the Parker people. why? because they sought change and improvement? kinda odd. the following link i've posted to a Tracy school proves my point. why do they feel this way?
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for the link. I think, though, that it would be unfair to hold every Tracy Kenpo stylist responsible for an article written by one person - even a Tracy. The article does have a lot of trash talk in it, which, IMO, is unfortunate. It would have been far better and more respectful simply to have laid down the differences between the two styles and point out why you (Wil Tracy) thought yours was better rather than trash the other.

However, regarding any question as to which is better? The better fighter is better. Both systems produce very good martial artists. Can't the MA community grow up?

For the original poster; in my experience, Tracy Kenpo is more linear than American Kenpo and Tracy Kenpo has more techniques; although whether this is better is a matter of dispute. Pick a good school and don't worry too much whether it is one system or the other.


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## kenpo0324 (Jan 20, 2006)

I study Tracy's and I have friends who do EPak, 
(IMO) Just Pick a good school and don't worry too much whether it is one system or the other.
As long as you enjoy it, Nothing else matters.
We are all on the same Journey, Just Diffrent Paths.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 20, 2006)

I couldn't finish the article.  They claim Mr. Parker didn't teach Real Kenpo yet ***** when he said the Tracy's were not versed in his style of Kenpo. Isn't that a contradiction?
Sean (Cult Member)


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## Jonathan Randall (Jan 20, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Thank you for the link. I think, though, that it would be unfair to hold every Tracy Kenpo stylist responsible for an article written by one person - even a Tracy. The article does have a lot of trash talk in it, which, IMO, is unfortunate. It would have been far better and more respectful simply to have laid down the differences between the two styles and point out why you (Wil Tracy) thought yours was better rather than trash the other.
> 
> However, regarding any question as to which is better? The better fighter is better. Both systems produce very good martial artists. Can't the MA community grow up?
> 
> For the original poster; in my experience, Tracy Kenpo is more linear than American Kenpo and Tracy Kenpo has more techniques; although whether this is better is a matter of dispute. Pick a good school and don't worry too much whether it is one system or the other.


 
On second thought, I equivocated here. On a second reading it is clear that the article is offensive and totally unecessary. I respect the Tracy style and Tracy practioners, but the sentiments expressed in this article are unworthy of the martial arts. Without SGM Parker and his contributions, most of us would not now be practicing "Karate", Kenpo or anything else.

It is time for Martial Artists to grow up. Why quarrel over which is the "most besterest" style when a 16 year old punk with a handgun would trump an unarmed grandmaster in most situations?


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## Seabrook (Jan 20, 2006)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> on the other hand, i see alot of ill feeling coming out of the Tracy camp aimed toward the Parker people. why? because they sought change and improvement? kinda odd.
> 
> i don't think i could find myself studying in a Tracy's school, ever. the amount of disrespect toward a dead human being that has no way of defending himself is absurd. it's disrespectful. and all this only after Ed Parker had already died.
> 
> it's disgraceful.


 
I agree 100% brother.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## jdinca (Jan 20, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Thank you for the link. I think, though, that it would be unfair to hold every Tracy Kenpo stylist responsible for an article written by one person - even a Tracy. The article does have a lot of trash talk in it, which, IMO, is unfortunate. It would have been far better and more respectful simply to have laid down the differences between the two styles and point out why you (Wil Tracy) thought yours was better rather than trash the other.
> 
> However, regarding any question as to which is better? The better fighter is better. Both systems produce very good martial artists. Can't the MA community grow up?
> 
> For the original poster; in my experience, Tracy Kenpo is more linear than American Kenpo and Tracy Kenpo has more techniques; although whether this is better is a matter of dispute. Pick a good school and don't worry too much whether it is one system or the other.



I really don't think either one is better, they're just different. The school and the instructor is what matters.

As for the article, it was written in '94, yet it was posted in '05 on this school's website. Personally, I would avoid the school just because of this article.

That said, there are a number of "factual" claims about the early days of kenpo in the article. Bad blood and derogatory comments aside, it would be nice to have the definitive facts, not to determine who's better, who did what, etc., but for the historical perspective.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 20, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> On second thought, I equivocated here. On a second reading it is clear that the article is offensive and totally unecessary. I respect the Tracy style and Tracy practioners, but the sentiments expressed in this article are unworthy of the martial arts. Without SGM Parker and his contributions, most of us would not now be practicing "Karate", Kenpo or anything else.
> 
> It is time for Martial Artists to grow up. Why quarrel over which is the "most besterest" style when a 16 year old punk with a handgun would trump an unarmed grandmaster in most situations?


 
It is very unfortunate the path this article took.  There may or may not be some truth in the historical events as stated in the article, but I suspect we will never know for sure.  Everyone has their side of the story and few people are still around who were there to witness the events.  Nevertheless, even if there is some truth to it, what does it even matter today?  Some people get really bogged down in what happened years or decades or centuries ago.  While those events may have shaped what we do now, at the same time they are now irrelevant.  Unless you were personally present and personally insulted or wronged by what happened in the 1950s and 1960s, why would you care one way or the other?  When a student splits from a teacher, it can be an ugly scene and often neither side behaves in a clear-headed and reasonable manner.  There were probably slights delivered on both sides.  Lets accept that as history and move forward.

There are many people who practice the Tracy material but have never been directly associated with their organization.  There are probably also many people who are involved with their organization who are good martial artists, and good people who don't concern themselves with history or politics.  Lets not judge a whole group of people by the number and names of the techniques they practice.

Bok Mei is still a popular style of kung fu, even tho legends say the White Eyebrow Monk was the one who betrayed the Shaolin Temple and caused its burning.  That doesn't mean someone who practices Bok Mei today somehow shares guilt for what happened a few centuries ago.


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## hongkongfooey (Jan 20, 2006)

jdinca said:
			
		

> I really don't think either one is better, they're just different. The school and the instructor is what matters.
> 
> As for the article, it was written in '94, yet it was posted in '05 on this school's website. Personally, I would avoid the school just because of this article.
> 
> That said, there are a number of "factual" claims about the early days of kenpo in the article. Bad blood and derogatory comments aside, it would be nice to have the definitive facts, not to determine who's better, who did what, etc., but for the historical perspective.


 
The articles were also posted on the main Tracy's site a few years ago.
Apparently, there wasn't enough courage from the Tracy's camp to trash Ed Parker when he was alive.


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## jdinca (Jan 20, 2006)

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> The articles were also posted on the main Tracy's site a few years ago.
> Apparently, there wasn't enough courage from the Tracy's camp to trash Ed Parker when he was alive.



Don't be so sure. It wouldn't surprise me if it went both ways. This however, is a written document that shows an insight into some sort of animosity on one side of the equation.

What bothers me about it the most is it puts Tracy Kenpo in a bad light. It's actually a very good system.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 20, 2006)

Let's be a little bit careful about where we are going with this.  Interesting discussion, but we might be drifting a little close to "my style is great and yours sucks", which is exactly what the originator of this thread asked us all to avoid.


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## Sapper6 (Jan 20, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Let's be a little bit careful about where we are going with this. Interesting discussion, but we might be drifting a little close to "my style is great and yours sucks", which is exactly what the originator of this thread asked us all to avoid.


 
i don't see that happening here.  

there are many,many comparisons of these two systems' techniques in the thread and across MT.  agree?

where the thread is going now is somewhere entirely different, but not necessarily wrong.  he's asked the "system vs. system question".  and if you are going to fairly assess any two things, you must consider ALL things; not just techniques, forms, and belts.

the link i've posted above links to an article written by a Tracy, a rather prominant one.  i posted it so that readers have an understanding of what honor, integrity, and respect is, and is not.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 20, 2006)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> i don't see that happening here.
> 
> there are many,many comparisons of these two systems' techniques in the thread and across MT. agree?
> 
> ...


 
Agree, i'm not trying to stifle discussion.  Some things seemed like they were getting close to "Tracy bashing", which seemed like it could lead down a road of nastyness.  Just thought I'd make a comment before it went there.  Of course I'm not a moderator so what I say about it doesn't mean anything anyway.


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## Sapper6 (Jan 20, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Agree, i'm not trying to stifle discussion. Some things seemed like they were getting close to "Tracy bashing", which seemed like it could lead down a road of nastyness. Just thought I'd make a comment before it went there. Of course I'm not a moderator so what I say about it doesn't mean anything anyway.


 
yeah man, i see what you were saying.  no worries.  

i only posted the article for the simple reason that if people are going to compare things, they need as much as possible; and that means viewpoints and opinions originating from at least one of the camps.  although i searched far and wide across the net, i couldn't find a single article written by an EPAK practitioner that anything close to what was linked to above.  if anyone else does, i emplore them to post it.

please don't construe what i've posted above as support for EPAK.  i don't even study it.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 20, 2006)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> yeah man, i see what you were saying. no worries.
> 
> i only posted the article for the simple reason that if people are going to compare things, they need as much as possible; and that means viewpoints and opinions originating from at least one of the camps. although i searched far and wide across the net, i couldn't find a single article written by an EPAK practitioner that anything close to what was linked to above. if anyone else does, i emplore them to post it.
> 
> please don't construe what i've posted above as support for EPAK. i don't even study it.


 
I actually think posting the link to the articles was good and informative for people who might not have seen them before, so my comment wasn't even aimed at that.  It just seemed like a couple reactions to the articles might have been heading toward hostility and I didn't want it to turn into an argument that moved away from the spirit of the thread.  Maybe I was reading too much into what was being said and I am wrong about it, but I just wanted to remind us all that we are trying to have a positive discussion about the two systems, and we aren't here to point fingers at certain personalities, even if those personalities might be abrasive.

I've said before, I suspect there is _some_ truth in the articles but they were written in an inflamatory way.  I suspect we will never know the real truth about what insults and slights may have passed between Mr. Parker and the Tracys.  I suspect they went both ways.  As far as I am concerned, it is history (a bit colorful and perhaps with some fireworks to boot, but history nonetheless).  Two separate but similar and related arts have grown from that era.  Both arts have merit.  They approach training and learning from different angles but I bet in the hands of competent practitioners they have equal potential.

We have had a discussion going about Kosho Shorei Ryu here: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29947&page=6
Around page 6 and 7 of the thread some interesting ideas came up regarding the kenpo curriculum.  It was an idea that struck me based on the discussion in the thread and some contemplation that I have had about the system for a long time.  You might find the discussion enteraining.

Anyway, have a great weekend.


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## Sapper6 (Jan 20, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Anyway, have a great weekend.


 
yeah, you too...for monday brings more tedious training.


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## KenpoDave (Jan 24, 2006)

*Copy of the same post @ kenpotalk.com:*

*Tracy's*
The Tracy brothers began their martial training in fencing, boxing, and wrestling. They embarked on their study of Kenpo with Ed Parker and his first Black Belt, James Ibrao, in 1957, while attending college as pre-law students. Over time they developed a close relationship with Mr. Parker, and soon after Mr. Parker turned all the teaching of beginner and intermediate classes over to the Tracy brothers, who would develop an order in which the techniques would be taught, and the advanced classes were run by James Ibrao.
Al Tracy was the powerhouse of Ed Parkers studio, and, as seen in the brochure used in 1962-64 by Ed Parker, Al Tracy did all the breaking demonstrations. The Tracy brothers would also run Mr. Parkers studio when he would periodically return to Hawaii.
There has been question as to whether or not Al and Jim Tracy received their Black Belts (Shodan) from Ed Parker. In the Family Treelisted in the original "Infinite Insights", by Ed Parker, you can see that Al and Jim Tracy are listed as Black belts under Ed Parker, first generation. They also have the largest number of Black Belts listed undertheir tree! 
Al Tracy was the fifth person promoted to Black Belt (Shodan) January 2,1962. Certificate dated January 7, 1962.
Jim Tracy was the sixth person promoted to Black Belt (Shodan) January 2,1962. Certificate dated January 7, 1962.
Will Tracy received his Black Belt (Shodan) in 1961, under both William K.S. Chow and Great Grand Master Fusae Oshita (James Mitoses sister). 
In the spring of 1962, the Tracy brothers opened their first studio in San Francisco, which was named Kenpo Karate Studio and was the northern branch of Ed Parkers organization. It was there that the Tracy brothers created the three new Kyu ranks and the Kenpo "colored belt system". Ed Parker adopted the new 8-kyu system, but rejected the colored belts until finally converting to the Tracy color belt system in 1966. The Tracy brothers also created belt manuals (which contained 40 techniques per belt at that time) and gave the techniques names, like Attacking Circle, Raising the Staff, etc.
The Tracy brothers opened a second school, in Sacramento, in 1962, and a third, in San Jose, in 1963, and later changed the name of the schools to Tracys Kenpo Karate.
Ed Parker turned the Kenpo Karate Association of America (KKAA) over to the Tracy brothers and then formed the International Kenpo Karate Association (IKKA). The Tracy brothers agreed to join the IKKA, on the condition that they could keep the standards of teaching of the KKAA for their own students.
In 1964, the Tracy Brothers were promoted to 3rd Degree Black Belt (Sandan). 
Ed Parker promoted Al Tracy to 3rd Degree Black Belt on December 4, 1964. 
The certificate is from the IKKA and is signed by Ed Parker, Mills Crenshaw, Stan Hall, and Charles Sullivan, and witnessed by Charlotte Connor, the wife of Tom Connor.
The Tracy brothers later opened schools throughout California, as well as other states, and formed the *Tracys International Studios of Self-Defense.*
By 1982, Ed Parker had changed what he called American Kenpo, so much so as to make it in Parkers own words, "no more than 10% Kenpo." It was around this time that the Tracys completely broke from Ed Parker. 
Al Tracy's Kenpo Karate remains to this day teaching "Original/Traditional" Kenpo, as taught to him by Ed Parker, one of the most realistic combat scenario based systems of self-defense available.
The Tracys International Studios of Self Defense is a worldwide organization, based out of Lexington, Kentucky, comprised of over 1,000 schools. It is the largest system of affiliated schools and the longest-running self-defense chain in the world.
Al Tracy has organized the largest gathering of Kenpoist in the world. A true historic event called the Gathering of Eagles, which took place in Las Vegas, Nevada, February of 1999. 
The Gathering brought together over seventy masters, representing Kenpo, American Kenpo, Shaolin Kenpo, Wun Hop Kuen Do, Lima Lama, Kajukenbo, etc., and included some of the biggest names in Westernized Kenpo; James Ibrao, Thomas Mitose, the son of the late James Mitose, Al Dacascos, Ralph and Rob Castro, William Chun, Sonny Gascon, Bart Vale, Larry Tatum, Dave Simmons, Adriano Emperado, Richard Lee, Sig Kufferath, Tino Tuiolosega, John McSweeney, and the list goes on and on. 
Between 1100-1200 people attended the event, coming from all over the globe, with a choice of five seminars at any one time and eighty overall.
The second Gathering took place in 2001 and was attended by approximately 1500-1600 people. The event also included the son of Choki Motobu, Chosei Motobu, and others included K*oshiro Tanaka, *Ron Sanchez, Steve Labounty, and Bob White. 
__________________


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## Carol (Feb 12, 2006)

I've noticed that Tracy and EPAK differ over names of techniques, even when a technique iis shared or very similar.  How did the different names come about?


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## Sigung86 (Feb 21, 2006)

lady_kaur said:
			
		

> I've noticed that Tracy and EPAK differ over names of techniques, even when a technique iis shared or very similar.  How did the different names come about?



According to Al Tracy, in a nutshell, He and his brothers named the techniques based on some particular noteworthy aspect of each technique.  If you ever have an opportunity to see any Tracy training vids, you will, on at least one occasion, hear Al say that he does not remember why a name/names were given to certain techniques, after all these years.

Apparently, again, according to Al, although the technique names were copyright material, he offered to let SGM Parker use them.  SGM Parker, apparently, declined the offer and came up with his own naming convention.  SGM Parker's naming convention was based on a more useful naming paradigm than the Tracy Method.  Or so it would seem, as it is based on the actual physical attributes of the techniques.

Hope I've helped clear up a question or two.

Dan Farmer


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## Doc (Feb 21, 2006)

evenflow1121 said:
			
		

> I studied EPAK all my life but I know of two Tracy schools that were within the area I lived in several years back that produced very good fighters. The styles are somewhat different, and like flyingcrane said there are more techniques in the Tracy system than Parker's but the outcome is the same for both. Neither system is superior to the other, and I think that is one of the greatest misconceptions, Tracy is better or Parker is better none of that is accurate. I ve seen Tracy style students switch over to EPAK and never look back, like I ve seen EPAK students switch over to the Tracy System and never look back. A lot of it has to do with the student, his/her progression and how they grasp concepts of motion, some people like to have a little leeway or freedom to variate, others feel better if they have technique for every possible angles.


Actually I would suggest that has more to do with the students and their teachers than anything else. The "brand" is probably irrelevant.


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## KenpoDusty (Mar 5, 2006)

KenpoDave, 

 That is probably the best piece of information Ive read regarding Parker/Tracy history without a particular bias. Thanks!

Keep Smiling 
Dusty


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## Doc (Mar 6, 2006)

KenpoDusty said:
			
		

> KenpoDave,
> 
> That is probably the best piece of information Ive read regarding Parker/Tracy history without a particular bias. Thanks!
> 
> ...


I hope you're kidding.


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## KenpoDave (Mar 9, 2006)

KenpoDusty said:
			
		

> KenpoDave,
> 
> That is probably the best piece of information Ive read regarding Parker/Tracy history without a particular bias. Thanks!
> 
> ...


 
Thanks, but the credit goes to Scott Heaney.  He originally had it posted at his website, and I think he may have authored it.  It is not really a Parker/Tracy history, though, more of a Tracy history.


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## stickarts (Mar 10, 2006)

I asked about the differences once from a high level Parker practicioner and he said the main difference is "how it is applied on the body"
I personally haven't studied both sytems equally so i don't have a qualified opinion.


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## donald (Mar 11, 2006)

What I know from my limited knowledge of both systems comes from being involved with each. The Tracy studios I was involved in were not as readily influenced by the Chinese systems. They seemed to exhibit more of the Okinawian/Japanese influences. Not really to say one is better than the other. My honest opinion is that they are really two sides to the same coin. One side reflects one image, and the opposite side details another. Very different in some respects, and very much alike in others. I think the best way to measure for yourself is to check out a couple of the studios. Because in the end it really depends on who is teaching the material.


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## Carol (Mar 11, 2006)

stickarts said:
			
		

> I asked about the differences once from a high level Parker practicioner and he said the main difference is "how it is applied on the body"
> I personally haven't studied both sytems equally so i don't have a qualified opinion.


 
How it is applied on the body?  

That is an interesting comment, but I'm struggling to understand what it means.  

Can anyone explain more?


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 11, 2006)

i've trained extensively in both systems.  it's mostly the same -- two slightly different delivery vehicles for the same core concepts.

technically, you'll find tracy is a little more ornate and epak techniques are longer.  

i feel there's less solidarity in the tracy line where i live now (in fact, that's how i ended up in epak.  i moved and the three tracy teachers in town all focused on what jerks the other two were.  unimpressed i went to the epak school).  that may be different in other parts of the country.

hope that helps.  both are fine, really.  it's the teacher that matters.


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## Danjo (Mar 12, 2006)

One should be careful to consider the source of one's information. Will Tracy, in addition to not practicing Tracy's Kenpo or EPAK has more than a slightly bizzare take on things in life. He called Parker a cult leader, and then he pulls stuff like this:

http://www.subgenius.com/subg-digest/v0/0082.html


http://www.goddess.org/

http://www.godulike.co.uk/faiths.php?chapter=24&subject=who

You ask yourself how reliable this guy is.


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## Doc (Mar 12, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> One should be careful to consider the source of one's information. Will Tracy, in addition to not practicing Tracy's Kenpo or EPAK has more than a slightly bizzare take on things in life. He called Parker a cult leader, and then he pulls stuff like this:
> 
> http://www.subgenius.com/subg-digest/v0/0082.html
> 
> ...


Will was always 'differrent.' At one point we were looking at him for practicing law without a license. He had claimed to be an attorney, and wanted to act as his own council. Some of his perspectives were so 'out there,' he ultimately fell out with Al as well.


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## Danjo (Mar 13, 2006)

Another off the wall assertion by Will Tracy (and by the rest of the Tracy camp) is that Mitose was taught by his sister who supposedly out ranked him in Kenpo. Well, they use the idea that since Mitose was uke for this "unknown girl" in his first book, that the girl must have been his superior due to the fact that the Japanese were very strict about protocol etc. and that a Master would never uke for his student.

Well, two (at least two) problems with this:

1) Sijo Emperado says that the girl in the photograph was Mitose's girlfriend and that everyone knew her.

2) The idea that someone would not uke in for a woman in a sequence that was designed to demonstrate "women's self defense" is proven wrong by the fact that Okazaki did the same thing in his book in 1929 by using Watanabe as uke for some unknown female.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 13, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Will was always 'differrent.' At one point we were looking at him for practicing law without a license. He had claimed to be an attorney, and wanted to act as his own council. Some of his perspectives were so 'out there,' he ultimately fell out with Al as well.


 
well, claiming to be an attorney when you don't have a license to practice law is of course wrong and illegal, but anyone can represent themselves in a court of law if one so chooses, regardless of whether or not he has legal training or licenses.  Of course the common thought on doing that is if you represent yourself, you have a fool for a client...


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## KenpoDave (Mar 13, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Another off the wall assertion by Will Tracy (and by the rest of the Tracy camp) is that Mitose was taught by his sister who supposedly out ranked him in Kenpo.


 
No, Dan, you have made that up.  What we claim is that the girl in the book is Mitose's sister and that she was of equal status or rank to him.  Gary then asked if anyone thought that perhaps she was his teacher.  As far as I know, no one answered.



> Well, they use the idea that since Mitose was uke for this "unknown girl" in his first book, that the girl must have been his superior due to the fact that the Japanese were very strict about protocol etc. and that a Master would never uke for his student.


 
Almost true.  She was his equal in rank.



> 1) Sijo Emperado says that the girl in the photograph was Mitose's girlfriend and that everyone knew her.


 
But Lisa Chun said it was his sister.



> 2) The idea that *someone* would not uke in for a woman in a sequence that was designed to demonstrate "women's self defense" is proven wrong by the fact that Okazaki did the same thing in his book in 1929 by using Watanabe as uke for some unknown female.


 
"Someone" and a japanese man following a strict protocol are not the same thing.

Dan, you're just making a bunch of stuff up, and I am not sure what it has to do with the topic.

To everyone else, don't take my word for it, the threads are all there over at www.sanjosekenpo.com


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## HKphooey (Mar 14, 2006)

Energy would be better used for breaking down a technique, than breaking down a man or history.  

Both men had their own ideas.  That is what made them human.  

I have studied both styles and found them both to be fulfilling.  Great people in both "camps"

In the words of Rodney King- _"Can't we all just get along?" _

Happy birthday Danjo!


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## Danjo (Mar 14, 2006)

No, Dan, you have made that up. What we claim is that the girl in the book is Mitose's sister and that she was of equal status or rank to him. Gary then asked if anyone thought that perhaps she was his teacher. As far as I know, no one answered.

*My mistake then. So you all claim she was of equal rank? Sigh*


Almost true. She was his equal in rank.

*See above*

But Lisa Chun said it was his sister.

*She was wrong. The photos don't even match.*


"Someone" and a japanese man following a strict protocol are not the same thing.

*Where is your evidence that Mitose was following strict protocol any more than Okazaki or Watanabe? After all, Mitose was already teaching non-Asians which was a breach in their protocol.*

Dan, you're just making a bunch of stuff up, and I am not sure what it has to do with the topic.

*Bunch? That means more than one thing right?*

To everyone else, don't take my word for it, the threads are all there over at www.sanjosekenpo.com

*Yes, Please go over there and watch the Kool-Aid drinking take place *


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## Danjo (Mar 14, 2006)

HKphooey said:
			
		

> Happy birthday Danjo!


 
Thanks


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## KenpoDave (Mar 15, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> *My mistake then. So you all claim she was of equal rank? Sigh*




*Those of us on the board seem to be in agreement on that point.*

*



			She was wrong. The photos don't even match.
		
Click to expand...

* 
*I can't tell from the photos I have seen.  Too old and scratchy.  But Ms. Chun knew plenty of stuff.  I talked to her first hand.  Did you talk to Emperado?*

*



			Where is your evidence that Mitose was following strict protocol any more than Okazaki or Watanabe? After all, Mitose was already teaching non-Asians which was a breach in their protocol.
		
Click to expand...

* 
*You are correct about the non-asians being a breach of japanese protocol, though it is in line with the political leanings of the Yoshidas who were not so isolationist.  As far as evidence towards the former, where else in the book is their a breach of that protocol?  Every other photo in the entire book follows the protocol of a senior never ukeing for a junior.  That one photo could have been thrown is because the original for the sequence was bad, or it could have been placed on purpose.  The latter is more in line with the type of stuff that Mitose told Ray Arquilla.*

*



			Bunch? That means more than one thing right?
		
Click to expand...

* 
*Yes, it does.  And thanks for admitting that you made at least one thing up.  It is a step in the right direction.*


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## Danjo (Mar 16, 2006)

I think that people should be able to get a feel for what goes on over there now. Thanks Dave.


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## Doc (Mar 16, 2006)

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> i've trained extensively in both systems.  it's mostly the same --


"In your expereince."


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## hongkongfooey (Mar 17, 2006)

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> i feel there's less solidarity in the tracy line where i live now (in fact, that's how i ended up in epak. i moved and the three tracy teachers in town all focused on what jerks the other two were. unimpressed i went to the epak school). that may be different in other parts of the country.


 

Welcome to Kenpo in the 21st century. This kind of thing is the same all over. Kenpo is destined to be the new Tae Kwon Do. That's why I am glad that my school is independent of the political BS.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 17, 2006)

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> Welcome to Kenpo in the 21st century. This kind of thing is the same all over. Kenpo is destined to be the new Tae Kwon Do. That's why I am glad that my school is independent of the political BS.


Time will tell; eventualy, the black belts you have around you or some colored belts for that matter will start there own schools and politics will follow.
Sean


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## Doc (Mar 17, 2006)

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> Kenpo is destined to be the new Tae Kwon Do.


Kenpo *IS* the new TKD.


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## Sigung86 (Mar 17, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Kenpo *IS* the new TKD.



Amen... And without the kimpshee....


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