# Guntings!



## striker (Jun 9, 2005)

Just wondering what other arts train with Gunting strikes and how much emphasis they put on them


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## Simon Curran (Jun 9, 2005)

striker said:
			
		

> Just wondering what other arts train with Gunting strikes and how much emphasis they put on them


Whats a Gunting?


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## Franc0 (Jun 9, 2005)

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> Whats a Gunting?


Gunting is a form of limb weakening/destruction. I do an eclectic system that utilizes gunting. I like it alot. Helps to break down a strong guard.

Franco


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## Simon Curran (Jun 9, 2005)

masterfinger said:
			
		

> Gunting is a form of limb weakening/destruction. I do an eclectic system that utilizes gunting. I like it alot. Helps to break down a strong guard.
> 
> Franco


OK, thanks, in which case I guess most martial arts do at some level:idunno:


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## MJS (Jun 9, 2005)

striker said:
			
		

> Just wondering what other arts train with Gunting strikes and how much emphasis they put on them



Many of the FMAs as well as JKD include gunting or limb destruction into their training.  

Mike


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## pesilat (Jun 9, 2005)

striker said:
			
		

> Just wondering what other arts train with Gunting strikes and how much emphasis they put on them



The term "gunting" comes from Filipino martial arts and literally translates as "scissors." But it has come to mean, at least as far as a lot of American FMA practitioners are concerned, limb destructions in general. But many of them are scissoring motions either with the hands, or a hand and an elbow, or a hand and a knee, etc.

I've seen them in some Silat - not all that surprising given the amount of cross-pollenation between FMA and Silat.

But I've seen the concept - if not the specific techniques - used in most other arts I've been exposed to.

One phrasing I've heard of the concept from several other arts is "attack the attack."

In a lot of Karate it's "every block is a strike, every strike is a block." This ends up being the same concept when your "block" ends up being a strike intended to break the attacker's arm.

If any of this sounds familiar then you probably utilize the concept in your art 

Mike


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## silatman (Jun 9, 2005)

A typical gunting in our system is used when confronting a lead punch, slip the punch to the outside, monitor the arm and similtaneously strike the wrist / bicep on the inside with the knuckles or if attacking to the outside a backfist motion to the tricep works a treat.
 Of course any gunting aimed at any muscle is very destructive by its nature and will normally always result in what ever you hit not working real well afterwards.


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## Simon Curran (Jun 9, 2005)

If I understand the description correctly, then I would say that the technique in our syllabus called Glancing Salute would be an example of gunting (or scissoring) where we attempt to break the attacking arm by over-extension between our forearms...


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## rompida (Jun 9, 2005)

What I would be interested in is what your style teaches you about WHEN to use a gunting.  First response to an attack?  Using on a more diminished fighter?  or does your instructor/style even go into this?


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## Simon Curran (Jun 9, 2005)

rompida said:
			
		

> What I would be interested in is what your style teaches you about WHEN to use a gunting. First response to an attack? Using on a more diminished fighter? or does your instructor/style even go into this?


In the example I just gave, we use the gunting as a response to the initial attack (a cross-shoulder shove) and scissor the attacking arm


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## striker (Jun 9, 2005)

Guntings can be anything from, an elbow to an on-coming punch,  A knee to the opposite  leg of a round-house kick, Back fist to tricep.They are just a few examples.  Yes other-wise known as limb destruction or Bone shields!        Masterfinger, I would appreciate an insight into this electric system you mention as it sounds interesting,Thanks


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## Nanalo74 (Jun 9, 2005)

We have an article on our website entitled "Filipino Weaponry Leads to Empty Hand Skill". In it Sifu Barry Cuda explains the gunting.

Click here: www.combatartsusa.com/articles.html

Hope it helps.

Vic


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## arnisador (Jun 9, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Many of the FMAs as well as JKD include gunting or limb destruction into their training.


 Yes, we were doing guntings in JKD this morning. It's a scissoring motion from the FMA intended to manage the atacking limb with one hand (or weapon) while injuring it with the other. Think of someone thrusting to your abdomen with a knife--you block with your left hand and cut the forearm or upper arm with the knife in your right hand. That's a gunting. Substitute two knives, or two sticks, or one stick, or empty hand, where the weapon is a knuckle or similar.

 I'm sure other arts have similar ideas, but I wouldn't say it's the same as a Karateka's attacking block. Similar effect, but a different technique. A gunting is typically (not always) meant as a limb destruction, but not all limb destructions are guntings.


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## Whitebelt (Jun 9, 2005)

Ok i know this has nothing to do with Guntings but i wanted to know how to start a thread, the FAQ is useless in that field. Thank you.


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## MJS (Jun 9, 2005)

Whitebelt said:
			
		

> Ok i know this has nothing to do with Guntings but i wanted to know how to start a thread, the FAQ is useless in that field. Thank you.



Go to the section of your choice.  We'll use the General MA as an example.  When you click on that, it'll take you to that section.  Scroll to the bottom and you should see a button to hit that says "New Thread".  Click on that and start your thread.

Mike


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## Drifter (Jun 9, 2005)

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> If I understand the description correctly, then I would say that the technique in our syllabus called Glancing Salute would be an example of gunting (or scissoring) where we attempt to break the attacking arm by over-extension between our forearms...


 I would say that the technique Taming the Mace is the best example of a gunting in EPAK's techniques (of the tech's I have so far). :asian:


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## SAkenpo (Jun 9, 2005)

Leaping Crane as well.


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## psi_radar (Jun 9, 2005)

You can apply a gunting to almost any thrusting attack. My Kenpo teacher took a fair amount of Kuntao Silat and injected guntings as an option into a lot of our techniques.  In a straight punch attack, like was stated, slip the punch, then parry or hit with the outside hand while simultaneously hitting the nerve below or on the center of the bicep. Even lightly it kinda sucks to receive. 

There's a version of this that's a great knife disarm that I learned in Systema. On a knife thrust, smack the back of the hand and the lower part of the upper arm. The knife will pop right out. (Don't be in the way).

I also like Silat's Patu Koppola (I'm sure I'm butchering the spelling) in which you snake an arm around the back of the head and take your opponent to the ground. An arm caught with your open one as a lever makes it even more efective.


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 9, 2005)

_In a straight punch attack, like was stated, slip the punch, then parry or hit with the outside hand while simultaneously hitting the nerve below or on the center of the bicep. Even lightly it kinda sucks to receive. _

In my TKD self-defense training we do very similar.  As was stated earlier, a lot of 'blocks'  become 'strikes', if done to the proper target.  There is a nerve point at the center of the tricep that is pretty effective to strike, too.


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## arnisador (Jun 9, 2005)

psi_radar said:
			
		

> On a knife thrust, smack the back of the hand and the lower part of the upper arm. The knife will pop right out.


 The coolness of this technique, demonstrated on me by then green (?) belt Tim Hartman, was a big part of what hooked me on Modern Arnis.

  This was in 1984 or 1985, in my parents' backyard.


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## psi_radar (Jun 9, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> The coolness of this technique, demonstrated on me by then green (?) belt Tim Hartman, was a big part of what hooked me on Modern Arnis.
> 
> This was in 1984 or 1985, in my parents' backyard.



I consider it the best knife disarm I've ever learned! One of the only ones I'd really count on--and apparently one that crosses many ma's.
 :asian:


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## Simon Curran (Jun 10, 2005)

Drifter said:
			
		

> I would say that the technique Taming the Mace is the best example of a gunting in EPAK's techniques (of the tech's I have so far). :asian:


It is definately a limb attack, but maybe I am misunderstanding the description, but it seems like less of a scissoring motion than Glancing Salute is:idunno:


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## Nanalo74 (Jun 10, 2005)

This was the article I referred to in an earlier post. I hope the photos help clarify the technique. 
Vic www.combatartsusa.com


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## Drifter (Jun 10, 2005)

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> It is definately a limb attack, but maybe I am misunderstanding the description, but it seems like less of a scissoring motion than Glancing Salute is:idunno:


 Glancing Salute is kind of a reverse-gunting, if you will. Instead of compressing the limb, it hyperextends. I can't really explain it well, but it does have the same type of concept. If you look at the second picture in the above article, and change the foot positioning, and the knuckle strike to a handsword, you would have Taming the Mace.


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## arnisador (Jun 10, 2005)

Thanks for the pictures* Nanalo74*!

  I don't know Glancing Salute but the "reverse-gunting" to which *Drifter* refers is still a type of scissoring motion, although it doesn't necessarily pass through the way one usually thinks of a gunting. Sometimes we call that "shocking" the elbow. But, the idea is that I can do my gunting essentially the same way against either a left or right punch. (How I shift my body, or step, would probably change of course.) So, same idea. I guess I think of it as an "interrupted" gunting motion.


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## Jerry (Jun 10, 2005)

Perhaps I missed some of the others, but there seems to be a lot of emphasis on a single guntang strike (the guntang to the arm and wrist). I was taught and use the principle far more universally than that. I'll perform limb destructions which are not guntang strikes, and guntang strikes which are not limb destructions. 

Available both simultanious and staggered (try knocing their balance foreward then knocking their head backwards when they are falling), I'm more concerned with the principle than the technique.


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## arnisador (Jun 10, 2005)

You can certainly use guntings on other than just the arm--I think the discussion is focused on that because the thread title is "Guntings!" (not "Limb Destructions!" more generally), and in a text medium it's easiest to fix on one example. In person it'd be easier to show others. I often gunting the abdomen with a slapping technique, for instance, and the head/neck is another target for it.


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## Drifter (Jun 10, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Thanks for the pictures* Nanalo74*!
> 
> I don't know Glancing Salute but the "reverse-gunting" to which *Drifter* refers is still a type of scissoring motion, although it doesn't necessarily pass through the way one usually thinks of a gunting. Sometimes we call that "shocking" the elbow. But, the idea is that I can do my gunting essentially the same way against either a left or right punch. (How I shift my body, or step, would probably change of course.) So, same idea. I guess I think of it as an "interrupted" gunting motion.


 Yes, Glancing Salute places the left arm above the attacker's right elbow on the outside, and the right arm below the elbow on the inside, in sort of a 'temporary armbar limb destruction'. I'm just gonna keep on making up terms.

 If a gunting is done with a foot, is it still considered a gunting? For example, as a defense to a right punch, parrying with your left hand and blowing out the attacker's right knee with a low front kick.


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## psi_radar (Jun 10, 2005)

If you're looking for Kenpo body-type gunting attacks, think of the shearing groin/kidney attacks of Escape from Death and Grip of Death. The pain from the groin strikes cause the body to move into the kidney strike.

Those pictures are great but one thing they didn't express well is the timing. The hand-to-hand strike happens a millisecond before the arm strike, so that the upper arm is most definitely diverted toward the second strike, adding force and nervous disruption. 

I generally think of guntings as a nerve and soft tissue attacks, and Glancing Salute is more of a bone and ligament attack. I'm no gunting expert, though, just a fan.


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## Nanalo74 (Jun 10, 2005)

The example in the pics I posted above is one type of gunting. As someone else mentioned, the word "gunting" itself actually means scissors, and when applied to FMA it refers to the crossing or scissoring motion of the hands. The head, groin and limb can all be targets. The principle or concept is much more important than the technique as that concept can be applied several ways. 

Glad the pics were helpful.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com


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## Simon Curran (Jun 24, 2005)

Thanks for the clarification guys,
 I have'nt been around for a while, but I think I am (kind of) getting it:asian:


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## James Clifton (Apr 13, 2006)

Guys,
       I'm one of Bram Frank's people.We use the Gunting(knife)to do the Gunting.Visit Bram's site cssdsc.
Jim


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