# Seeking authentic Jujutsu



## Brother John (Mar 12, 2004)

Hi everyone.
I've been training in what I'd call "stand up, balistic" styles for right at 19 years now (started when I was Very young). I've always found the traditional, grappling-predominant, martial arts of Japan to be VERY interesting and I'd really like to begin training in...probably Jujutsu; but I've got some questions first. Answer however you may...
BUT: Before that, here's my stance on things.
1. I'm not a dojo hopper. Anytime I've changed arts it's been because my instructor moved (died once, cancer), I moved..etc. I'd like to find a Jujutsu (Aikijutsu) dojo, and CALL IT HOME. 
2. I'm very into my current "striking-predominant" style of American Kenpo Karate, and I don't intend on giving it up whatsoever. To me training in Jujutsu would be rounding out my knowledge/skill base to reflect my training/fighting philosophy. I would like to be able to blend/merge and complement my Kenpo ability/knowledge.
3. I'm not into competition! I did that for some time, did it well. It's just not my thing anymore. Toe to toe with classmates in order to learn from a good session of sparing...GREAT. Not a competitor anymore, simply could care less; I've got enough little golden-plastic men with one leg in the air...don't need more. (PS: not into BJJ...I respect them...but there's that 'not a competitor' thing again.)

SO...having said all of that, can you help me out.
I've looked in my local phone book (Wichita Kansas) to try to find instruction. The only thing I can find is an Aikido club at the college campus (think you have to be a student there first, the college that is) and a karate guy who also teaches Judo classes on the side.
Help!

With much thanks
Your Brother
John


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Mar 15, 2004)

John:  I did a Yahoo Yellow Pages search for Martial Arts Instruction in Wichita, KS...Man!  I feel sorry for you!  I hope your restaurant selection is better.   

I think you should talk to the guy about Judo classes.  You can do that without competing.  Judo combines standup throwing with ground grappling.  It is a good complement to Kenpo.

Good luck.


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## Brother John (Mar 16, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> John:  I did a Yahoo Yellow Pages search for Martial Arts Instruction in Wichita, KS...Man!  I feel sorry for you!  I hope your restaurant selection is better.
> 
> I think you should talk to the guy about Judo classes.  You can do that without competing.  Judo combines standup throwing with ground grappling.  It is a good complement to Kenpo.
> 
> Good luck.


Thanks Bro.
I did find an Aikido class, but I'm not so sure about it being in line with the way I train/fight. I KNOW I've heard other people in Wichita talk about "back yard/basement Dojo" for Jujutsu. I'll keep holding out for that. I will check into the Judo bit too though.
Thanks man...
was worried that once one of my Kenpo-mates discovered I was looking outside our art for instruction I'd get branded a heretic.  
Your Brother
John


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## M F (Mar 16, 2004)

John, you heretic.  Just kidding.  Jujitsu seems like it would fit perfectly with Kenpo.  In fact, a friend of mine practices a very effective combination of Jujitsu, Aikido, and AKKI Kenpo.  Do what you like, I say.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Mar 16, 2004)

> was worried that once one of my Kenpo-mates discovered I was looking outside our art for instruction I'd get branded a heretic.



John:  As long as you say that you haven't learned anything new from these other styles and that everything they do is really just a subset of Kenpo, then Kenpoists won't call you a heretic.


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## Brother John (Mar 16, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> John:  As long as you say that you haven't learned anything new from these other styles and that everything they do is really just a subset of Kenpo, then Kenpoists won't call you a heretic.


You are so bad Kenpoka!

Thanks for the encouragement guys.

Your Brother
John


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## Bushigokoro9 (Mar 18, 2004)

Brother John,

I might be of assistance.  What is it exactly that you are looking at Jujutsu for?    I read your post but if you could enlighten me (privately if you wish) I believe that I can help.

Your friend in quiet little Abilene, KS.

Best Regards,
Jeff


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## Bushigokoro9 (Mar 19, 2004)

Bushigokoro9 said:
			
		

> Brother John,
> Dear broher john,  I hope you are doing well.  We have not spoken in some time,  I do believe  that I have some of the answers you speak/ looking for,   I need to ask several questuions that you might want to answer off line????  I would have no problem communicating like this wth you in  private or public .  I beleive that I have some infomartion that can assist you with on your journey'
> 
> Your friend from quiet little abilene, KS
> ...


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## Brother John (Mar 19, 2004)

Bushigokoro9 said:
			
		

> Bushigokoro9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Michael Billings (Mar 19, 2004)

I also like the Japanese Jujitsu. I use a Wally Jay Small Circle mix. Awesome tapes from the 50's with Wally Jay and friends and it was rough and tumble with the goal getting back up to your feet fast (multiple opponents), and combined a lot more striking than I thought.

 Combat Hapkido may have something to offer also. Lots of what we call contact manipulations (as does Kuk Sul Won), but not enough combination strikes for me, and lacks some sophistication, but that may have been the school I was visiting. The Kuk Sul is more shophisticated, generally speaking, in the schools I have visited. The hapkido throws & holds may combine nicely with your Kenpo. I like the Akijitsu if you can find it or even[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Kysho-Jitsu, or an equivalent.  

 Is there any Chin-Na in the area? That can be interesting to add to the mix. Learning Aikido is sorta weird, I like some of the blending, and have been known to throw some into my Kenpo parry drills or flow drills, you really "get" the concept of getting off the line and "feeding". 

 Judo is just always good. You have to be able to roll on the ground and like some pain, but obviously with your background, this is a non-issue for you. My age and catagories of prior injuries don't allow me to continue this, but the principles and "feel" you get for your own body, and your uke's is invaluable.

  Keep up the great work,
  -Michael
[/font]


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## Brother John (Mar 20, 2004)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> I also like the Japanese Jujitsu. I use a Wally Jay Small Circle mix. Awesome tapes from the 50's with Wally Jay and friends and it was rough and tumble with the goal getting back up to your feet fast (multiple opponents), and combined a lot more striking than I thought.
> 
> Combat Hapkido may have something to offer also. Lots of what we call contact manipulations (as does Kuk Sul Won), but not enough combination strikes for me, and lacks some sophistication, but that may have been the school I was visiting. The Kuk Sul is more shophisticated, generally speaking, in the schools I have visited. The hapkido throws & holds may combine nicely with your Kenpo. I like the Akijitsu if you can find it or even[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Kysho-Jitsu, or an equivalent.
> 
> ...


Those are some great thoughts there Mr.Billings, thanks. I agree about Aikido, very interesting art but it's footwork is just too different from what I already do in Kenpo...just not a good blend I think. Aikijutsu is great! Just none of it around here..that I know of. Small Circle is also interesting, I've had his book for some time, though it's rather cursory. Interesting stuff, seems like he took some of the Jujutsu material and used some Chin-Na with it.
I'd love to study some Chin-Na. Same problem though, none of it around here. 
Truth be known, I rather have my heart set on Japanese Jujutsu. It's a well rounded program that has lots of different aspects to it. I could make it a life-time study very easily; just like I am my Kenpo.

Your Brother
John


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## Kempojujutsu (Mar 20, 2004)

Original Okinawa Kempo did have jujutsu techniques in it. I did not know why American Kenpo does not. But to answer your question they both work very good with each other, Brother John.


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## wadokai_indo (Mar 24, 2004)

Hello brother John. If you have time, try to find an authentic Wado-ryu Dojo, the ones which does not focus too much on sport Karate and still teach the old Shindo Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu techniques as taught by GM. Otsuka. When this style was registered in Tokyo Butokukai in mid 1930s, it was recognized as a Jujutsu Kenpo combination style (Shinshu Wado-ryu Jujutsu Kenpo), and it contains both Okinawan Kenpo Kata and paired Jujutsu Kata's (with all the joint locks, throws, chokes, knife defenses, etc).

I think my website has videoclips of GM. Otsuka showing his stuff (Jujutsu Kenpo techniques), the URL is

www.geocities.com/wadokai_indonesia

Hope this helps! 

Ben Haryo


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## RevelationX (May 11, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> Hi everyone.
> I've been training in what I'd call "stand up, balistic" styles for right at 19 years now (started when I was Very young). I've always found the traditional, grappling-predominant, martial arts of Japan to be VERY interesting and I'd really like to begin training in...probably Jujutsu; but I've got some questions first. Answer however you may...
> BUT: Before that, here's my stance on things.
> 1. I'm not a dojo hopper. Anytime I've changed arts it's been because my instructor moved (died once, cancer), I moved..etc. I'd like to find a Jujutsu (Aikijutsu) dojo, and CALL IT HOME.
> ...


I was doing a search for you... Call this guy, not sure if he is jujistu but he was on a page with other jujistu schools.

*Bell Martial Arts*
*Mr. Stephen K. Bell*
11527 W. 14th Circle,  Wichita, KS  67212
Home: (316) 721-3117
EMAIL:  sbell28@cox.net


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## RevelationX (May 11, 2004)

Also here is a web page with many blackbelts in KS, but im not sure how close they are to Witchita. Hope it helps.

http://www.combat-ajj.com/site/view/FamilyTree.pml


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## Brother John (May 13, 2004)

RevelationX said:
			
		

> I was doing a search for you... Call this guy, not sure if he is jujistu but he was on a page with other jujistu schools.
> 
> *Bell Martial Arts*
> *Mr. Stephen K. Bell*
> ...


Strange thing is that I worked with Mr. Bell (back then he was just 'Steve') for two years...I knew he did Jujutsu. Since I've decided to seek out Jujutsu I've tried contacting him...to NO avail. I've tried this number and got nothing but a day care.
I'll keep trying him.
Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (May 13, 2004)

RevelationX said:
			
		

> Also here is a web page with many blackbelts in KS, but im not sure how close they are to Witchita. Hope it helps.
> 
> http://www.combat-ajj.com/site/view/FamilyTree.pml



Thanks!
They aren't so close to my home town. Not close enough to study with them on any kind of a regular basis...
but I'll try my questions/seeking on them.

Your Brother
John


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## RevelationX (May 14, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> Thanks!
> They aren't so close to my home town. Not close enough to study with them on any kind of a regular basis...
> but I'll try my questions/seeking on them.
> 
> ...


Here is another page I found. Doesent have the phone numbers, but all of them are in Wichita (or used to be, lol) I sugest trying the ones that do not state that they are Karate. 

http://www.sports-info.us/martial/KS/Wichita.asp

Also I found a name from a WBA website (World Budo Assosiation, I believe it was) of a 4th Dan in Sento Taijutsu, he is from Wichita so you might what to investigate it further. It is _Renshi_ Rob Diericks.  He did not have a website that I could find as of yet, but Ill let you know if I run across something. 

Take Care and Good Luck in your search.


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## Ronin Moose (Jul 4, 2004)

Brother John:  Have you considered looking into *KAJUKEMBO*?  It's a really interesting style that is rooted in Kenpo, with the addition of techniques from other styles of karate with Judo, jujutsu and Chinese boxing (hence KA-JU-KEM-BO).  Anyway, I don't know what might be in your area, but I suggest contacting Mr. John Bishop on this net - Martial Talk.com

Mr. Bishop is a senior sensei in Kajukembo and also a moderator on the kenpo forums.  Just a thought..........

Yours in Kenpo,

Garry


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 4, 2004)

Actually I have met and trained with Steve Crawford he is a great gentleman. Him and Steve Dollins out of Topeka as well as myself used to train together about 3 or 4 years ago.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser


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## hedgehogey (Jul 4, 2004)

> 3. I'm not into competition! I did that for some time, did it well. It's just not my thing anymore. Toe to toe with classmates in order to learn from a good session of sparing...GREAT. Not a competitor anymore, simply could care less; I've got enough little golden-plastic men with one leg in the air...don't need more. (PS: not into BJJ...I respect them...but there's that 'not a competitor' thing again.)



Where did you get the idea that you have to compete to learn bjj?


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## arnisador (Jul 4, 2004)

I study BJJ, but don't compete. We do of course grapple in class, but I've never done it with a referee, etc.--just "OK, start!" and we grapple away.


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## Kevin Walker (Jul 8, 2004)

Curious, I was wondering what 'style' of authentic Jujutsu you were looking for?

I studied Hakko-ryu jiu-jitsu for quite a while, and practiced some Kodokwan Jiu-jitsu.

Did you have a particular style of Jujutsu in mind?


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## Saitama Steve (Jul 8, 2004)

By authentic Jujutsu, do you mean Classical Japanese jujutsu?

Regards,


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## Brother John (Jul 9, 2004)

Ronin Moose said:
			
		

> Brother John:  Have you considered looking into *KAJUKEMBO*?  It's a really interesting style that is rooted in Kenpo, with the addition of techniques from other styles of karate with Judo, jujutsu and Chinese boxing (hence KA-JU-KEM-BO).  Anyway, I don't know what might be in your area, but I suggest contacting Mr. John Bishop on this net - Martial Talk.com
> 
> Mr. Bishop is a senior sensei in Kajukembo and also a moderator on the kenpo forums.  Just a thought..........
> 
> ...


Nice art!
But there is no Kajukenbo anywhere close to my area.

ahhhh...Kansas...

Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Jul 9, 2004)

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> Where did you get the idea that you have to compete to learn bjj?



Ya know, it probably IS my own presumption. But the few that I've met and the handful I've corresponded with have made it seem as though it's primarily structured for competition. Even if this is nothing but a trend w/in the BJJ groups... it's a trend that doesn't interest me.

Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Jul 9, 2004)

Kevin Walker said:
			
		

> Curious, I was wondering what 'style' of authentic Jujutsu you were looking for?
> 
> I studied Hakko-ryu jiu-jitsu for quite a while, and practiced some Kodokwan Jiu-jitsu.
> 
> Did you have a particular style of Jujutsu in mind?



I'm very interested in Hakko Ryu, from what I've read it's a very good school.
I must confess complete ignorance of "Kodokwan". Could you please tell me something about it?
As far as "Style" I guess I've not given it enough thought. I want to become adept at grappling skills that are applicable in a real life or death confrontation.... not skills that are geared toward competition.
NOTHING wrong with competition nor competitors in Jujutsu/Judo. I know that a good competitor will probably be VERY able to deal with a life or death situation...
Just not looking to be a competitor. It's my own personal bent.

Your Brother
John
PS: Where are you from?


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## Brother John (Jul 9, 2004)

Saitama Steve said:
			
		

> By authentic Jujutsu, do you mean Classical Japanese jujutsu?
> 
> Regards,


I would prefer it, yes. 
Though I've come across people from more modern styles/American associations that have really impressed me as well.

Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Jul 9, 2004)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I study BJJ, but don't compete. We do of course grapple in class, but I've never done it with a referee, etc.--just "OK, start!" and we grapple away.


OK.
But my premise is that the system itself is geared/crafted with the end goal of competitive prowess...
which it obtained....BULLSEYE-
I'm not saying that every practitioner or even every Dojo is sport oriented. But from what I understand from communicating with some BJJ people and from reading different interviews with the Gracies and especially Hellio (SP?) it seems to me to be created on the foundation of competition.

Hope I'm not offending anyone for saying this. It is not a put down.

Your Brother
John


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 9, 2004)

Brother John:  Not all BJJ players compete.  Actually, most probably don't.  

There is a BJJ school in Wichita:

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu of Wichita Kansas
658 North St. Paul
Wichita, KS

http://stompingass.com/brazilianjiujitsu.html


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## Shogun (Jul 9, 2004)

I am positive it has already been mentioned, but Aikido is probably your best bet. Remember, Koryu Jujutsu styles were focused not so much on "wrestle to the ground, then armbar" types of techniques, they were about finishing a fight quickly. "ju" simply means pliable, adaptable, or flexible....not soft, which is commonly thought. The concept of Koryu Jujutsu (most of the time) was when one lost his sword, knocked from his horse, attacked while sleeping, etc
While I respect BJJ, and have even comtemplated practicing it, it is by no means similar to traditional Japanese Jujutsu. If by Authentic you meant Koryu, then I recommend Aikido. if not, disregard.....Aiki (do or jutsu) is basically modern Koryu Jujutsu.


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## Kevin Walker (Jul 10, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> I would prefer it, yes.
> Though I've come across people from more modern styles/American associations that have really impressed me as well.
> 
> Your Brother
> John


There is something called: AMERICAN JIU JITSU being taught, and after some investigation, I discovered it is heavily based on Hakko-ryu ju jitsu and Judo.

There is only one Hakko-ryu jiu jitsu dojo left in New England to the best of my knowledge and it is located in Holliston Massachusetts.  It is taught by the senior student of my Shihan who opened his own Hakko-ryu school after having a falling out with the Shihan.  More dratted martial arts politics.


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## Kevin Walker (Jul 11, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> I'm very interested in Hakko Ryu, from what I've read it's a very good school.
> I must confess complete ignorance of "Kodokwan". Could you please tell me something about it?
> As far as "Style" I guess I've not given it enough thought. I want to become adept at grappling skills that are applicable in a real life or death confrontation.... not skills that are geared toward competition.
> NOTHING wrong with competition nor competitors in Jujutsu/Judo. I know that a good competitor will probably be VERY able to deal with a life or death situation...
> ...


Hi,

Yes, Hakko-ryu is a very good school of Jiu Jitsu, and to be perfectly honest, it has satisfied all of my self-defense needs.  It was basically all I needed when I worked as a bouncer, and shore patrol in the Navy (plus some of the various street fights I've had along the road).

Hakko-ryu jiu jitsu emphasizes 'pain-only' techniques.  In 1941 Hakko Ryu was founded by Ryuho Okuyama (1901-1987) and its lineage can be traced back to 8th century a.d.  It was kept confidential and Okuyama gave private lessons to members of the Royal Japanese Family and the aristocracy in Hakko-ryu Jiu Jitsu.

In fact, even today, students should be hand picked by a responsible sensei and are asked to keep what they learn a secret.

The term 'Hakko Ryu' means "Path of Eight Lights" or "School of Eight Lights".

Hand techniques predominate Hakko Ryu and an emphasis on control-through-pain methods which Hakko Ryu employs very efficiently.

You begin learning Hakko Ryu from the kneeling position (suwari-waza) then progress to the standing position (Tachi-waza).  You learn from Hakko Ryu that "nobody can hold you", and this comes pretty close to the truth.

For example, you constantly practice throughout your Hakko Ryu career to escape from the classic lapel grip where the bully grabs you by the shirt with one hand, then pulls back his fist with the other and threatens you with it.  After about a year of constant practice you drop the bully in seconds, with the bully in shrieking pain.  There are dozens and dozens of other applications you will learn and practice, practice, practice.......


Now Kodokwan Jiu Jitsu hasn't been around the U.S. for awhile.  It is what you would call basic self-defense manuevers; such as: escaping from a bear hug by bending down and reaching between your legs to grab the leg of your opponent and then pulling.  Kodokwan consists of those type of semi-wrestling techinqes.  It would be considered a 'primitive' form of jiu-jitsu as compared to some of the finer approaches found in Hakko-ryu, Aikido, or any of the Aiki-jitsu styles.  Hope this helps!

And to answer your P.S. - I'm from South Boston, Massachusetts.


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## Brother John (Jul 21, 2004)

FOUND IT!!!!

Tell yall more later

Your Brother
John


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## Shogun (Jul 26, 2004)

American Jujutsu style are good for fighting, MMA comptetitions, and grappling tourneys. However, they are not Traditional Jujutsu systems.


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## Brother John (Jul 26, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> American Jujutsu style are good for fighting, MMA comptetitions, and grappling tourneys. However, they are not Traditional Jujutsu systems.


Thanks Shogun
The one I found IS an 'American Jujutsu' instructor.
"good for fighting" is what I'm after over and above 'tradition'.
Your Brother
John


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## Shogun (Jul 27, 2004)

Yes, good for fighting is good. Both modern and classical offer this, but as far as the other stuff, they are very different.


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## Brother John (Jul 27, 2004)

Well...I said I'd tell you about it, so here goes:
I begin this Saturday. The instructor is a very nice guy that I used to work with... his name is Steve Bell. I asked him (by e-mail) what style he teaches. He said that he's in the lineage of "O'Sensei Phil Porter" and that I should look him up to find out more. 
So I did:
http://www.mararts.org/biography/porter.shtml
From his resume (of sorts) there, I'll be in very good hands...
litterally...in his hands, flying through the air....

Tell you more after I begin.
Any experienced Jujutsuka/Judoka....I'm very open to suggestions and recomendations/advice as I begin my journey.
 :asian: 
Your Brother
John


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## Shogun (Jul 28, 2004)

In the beginning......Patience. this is key. Patience is necessary in any Jujutsu/judo/jujitsu/jiu jitsu etc class.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 29, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> Any experienced Jujutsuka/Judoka....I'm very open to suggestions and recomendations/advice as I begin my journey.



If your stomach is in good shape (on the inside), you can take 3 advil every 8 hours for a total of 9 per day even though the instructions say 6 per day max.  Advil is crucial in my ability to tolerate Jujitsu and/or Jiu-Jitsu.


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## Brother John (Jul 29, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> If your stomach is in good shape (on the inside), you can take 3 advil every 8 hours for a total of 9 per day even though the instructions say 6 per day max.



 :roflmao:  
Gotcha!
Medicated martial artist...
:barf: 
 :ultracool 

Your Bro.
John


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## Brother John (Jul 29, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> In the beginning......Patience. this is key. Patience is necessary in any Jujutsu/judo/jujitsu/jiu jitsu etc class.



Thank you Shogun.
This may indeed be my greatest hurdle. Luckily, I've got what it takes to make it through the frustration of being a newbie again....
enthusiasm. 
I will work to be patient.

Your Brother
John


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 29, 2004)

I am completely serious about the extra ibuprofin.


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## Shogun (Jul 29, 2004)

Back and wrist pains......aaahhhhhh. love em.


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## Brother John (Jul 30, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> I am completely serious about the extra ibuprofin.


Noted.
Thanks

Your Brother
John


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## Shogun (Jul 30, 2004)

IMO, give any Jujutsu/aikido/judo school at least 4 months. this is the adjusting period.


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## martial artis (Sep 3, 2004)

i would say take jujutsu hakko denshin ryu its all about self defense and its one of the most best jujutsu martial arts out there! (de best!!!!)they have every thing you would want in a martial art


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## bignick (Sep 3, 2004)

this advice may be coming in a little late...but don't worry so much about the actual techniques first...focus on learning how to fall...


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## Brother John (Sep 3, 2004)

good advice Nic

Your Brother
John


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## bignick (Sep 3, 2004)

thanks...not to get anybody who's starting out discouraged...but i've been doing judo and jujitsu for about two years solid...and i'm finally getting the hang of this whole ukemi situation...just like anything else...the basics come fast, but you spend a long time refining them...i've learned countless throws, variations, wrist locks, pins, armbars, chokes, pressure points, etc...but the most important thing i've learned so far is falling


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