# Tomorrow



## bully (Apr 2, 2009)

If it isnt too foggy in the morning (it was this morning) I am flying to Southampton to train with Kevin Chan for the day.

Really looking forward to it and cant wait to fuel my training with the basics he shows me. As a novice (due to the fact I was out of it so long) and I do truely consider myself that, I want him to start at the beginning and explain as much of the theory as possible. I wasnt told/taught this years ago and used my strength to get through sparring etc, now I am an unfit 38 year old I think its time to learn proper way ;-)

Hoping to start at 9-10am and finish around 5-6pm.

Doubt I will be able to type when I get back or even lift my arms so will report over the weekend.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Apr 2, 2009)

Thats great! Be sure to tell us how it goes! If I'll be going to the UK again, my first stop would be Kevin Chans school too. Acctualy, I might do something like that during the summer. And I hear the exchange rate from euro to pound is basicly 1:1 this days so it would be a lot cheaper to go than a few years back. And if I'm ever in America I would probably go to an Augustine Fong or an Ali Rahim school.


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## paulus (Apr 2, 2009)

That sounds a like a good solid session. How did you organise that? Is it a one to one session? Did you just ring him up on the off chance?

I'll check back for the report!


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## bully (Apr 2, 2009)

Kevin has some history here in Jersey with some of the guys I used to train with. 

The guy who taught me throttled back on teaching and one of his best students met Kevin when he was travelling, they spoke about Wing Chun and realised they had something in common and Kevin trained some of the Jersey guys. One who is a member on here was over training with Kevin the other week.

I had just stopped training in the late 90's so never met Kevin, which is a shame as maybe I wouldnt have stopped, but no point on dwelling on the past 

So when I got back into some training, I had heard so much about Kevin, it was natural for me to want to go to him as he knows the people I have trained with.  I also pm'd Kamonguy for a chat too.

I just sent an email to the contact on the Kamon website and arranged it with him like that. Really easy, just gave some dates and we agreed on tomorrow.

It is one to one and he advised me to bring a video camera, which is pretty cool as alot of people wouldnt let you do that.

Right, off to bed as I have an early start!!

Fingers crossed the fog isnt too bad.


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## dnovice (Apr 2, 2009)

Be like sponge grasshopper and absorb all knowledge will you. Yoda says.


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## paulus (Apr 3, 2009)

bully said:


> It is one to one and he advised me to bring a video camera, which is pretty cool as alot of people wouldnt let you do that.


Now that is interesting. Are you going to make DVDs of the videa and post them to all your MT friends?

Good luck with the fog!


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 3, 2009)

I have a private with Kevin Chan on Sunday

He is the best teacher I have ever had and everything he will teach you will be no nonsense - truly, ask him anything and he has an answer

Don't be afraid to ask questions
If you don't think a move works, don't dismiss it (it annoys him if you do that), but give it a bit of time and you will find that the move does work
Try and get him to do the one leg demo. He hasn't done it for years, but basically, he lets you grab him any way you want and manages to stay on one leg, no matter how you try to throw him. It's just freaky. 
He is a very down to earth nice guy and you should have a fun time

Are you training at the Portsmouth class whilst you're down there? There is some real talent there, namely Alberto, Ken, Howard, Karl, Ivan and many more
Sometimes Sifu's brother Simon trains there as well and he is an extremely good fighter, but a very nice guy

If you have time, give me a bell and we can meet up and do some training. I'm not exactly in Kevin's league, but I can help drill into you what he will teach you


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## bully (Apr 4, 2009)

I feel as though I have been run over

What a day, very intense with alot to take in...as expected really.

Wont go into loads of detail as I doubt its much different from what any of you would do in a private with your Sifus.

Punching - Planting and making every punch count. I could feel the difference. Wouldn't want to take a dig from him anytime soon!! The power he can generate is awesome. There is no secret etc and Kevin is a normal guy not some superhuman, he just knows how to get explosive power and understands the body mechanics/structure...and the years of practice probably help ;-)

Stance - Gripping the floor, having a strong core, like has been said many times on here. I thought my core was strong after working on it for my back....not strong enough. Structure is everything.

Footwork - mine is terrible, imagine a shop dummy and you would be about right. KC gave me some drills to practice, most stuff you guys do anyway. He said training with some boxers would help...there are a few guys here I know, so will have a chat. We done the toe to toe thing with KC wearing boxing gloves throwing punches and me not being allowed to move my feet, just duck/weave etc. Then after that added moving around with me trying to get better angles etc....he didnt hit me but he was just being nice ;-)
Going to continue practicing this with the missus, she cant believe her luck, being able to smack me in the face with no comebacks!!

Chi Sau - I am not good at all, but it has been 12 years. Kevin explained things, the importance of stick/hit etc, we practiced and he showed me traps etc. I just need to go and practice for a few years now.

Feeding techniques - The importance of randomness and pressure testing. Its not what you put up to stop the first attack, its what you do after. As long as something goes up you can work off that.

 We worked on bridging too, the first form and applications, we talked about all sorts, the changes in WC, the importance of sparring.

KG, yep he done the one leg thing, no way could I get him down. I was only over for the day otherwise I would have tried to meet up with you. I will be coming again at the end of the summer I think, so will see then. In the meantime if work send me over again I will try and do an evening class where ever I am. Was in London last Friday, I should have stayed overnight and done a class.

Didnt do loads of video, but no way would I post it anywhere. The guy needs to make a living so I would say buy the official ones off the Kamon website. I also made some notes of what to practice.

All in all a great day which I want to do again after alot of practice. You guys should count yourselves lucky that you have classes and Sifus where you are. I do now have a training partner who has really good knowledge so things are looking up here.

If you get a chance to work with Kevin Chan then do it. 

The scariest part of the day was the aborted first plane landing when we broke through the fog and saw buildings at a couple of hundred feet. The plane started climbing with the engines flat out:mrtoilet: Second time lucky we made the landing.

Cheers

A very tired, aching Bully.


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## paulus (Apr 4, 2009)

Sounds like you had a great time.

I need to work on my fotwork too. Any chance you could tell us what those drills were?


bully said:


> Footwork - mine is terrible, imagine a shop dummy and you would be about right. KC gave me some drills to practice, most stuff you guys do anyway.


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 4, 2009)

bully said:


> Didnt do loads of video, but no way would I post it anywhere. The guy needs to make a living so I would say buy the official ones off the Kamon website. I also made some notes of what to practice.


 
Bully, 
Glad you had a good time - hope you softened him up for my private tomorrow!!
If you still have those vids, I'd love to see them. I don't think Kevin would begrudge you showing one or two drills in a kind of 'teaser' format. 
You can't really learn much from a video anyway (otherwise I would have learnt all how to fight like Jet Li by now!)
Anyway, hope you recover soon!
KG


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## dungeonworks (Apr 4, 2009)

Eru Ilúvatar;1150616 said:
			
		

> Thats great! Be sure to tell us how it goes! If I'll be going to the UK again, my first stop would be Kevin Chans school too. Acctualy, I might do something like that during the summer. And I hear the exchange rate from euro to pound is basicly 1:1 this days so it would be a lot cheaper to go than a few years back. And if I'm ever in America I would probably go to an Augustine Fong or an Ali Rahim school.



Me too...I'd really like to train with Sifu Ali Rahim and Co. equally as well as Sifu Kevin Chan!


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 4, 2009)

dungeonworks said:


> Me too...I'd really like to train with Sifu Ali Rahim and Co. equally as well as Sifu Kevin Chan!


 
I've never heard of Ali Rahim - does anyone have any links for him?
Augustine Fong is apparently very good - my friend used to be an instructor of his and he is pretty good


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## dnovice (Apr 5, 2009)

bully said:


> Feeding techniques - The importance of randomness and pressure testing. Its not what you put up to stop the first attack, its what you do after. As long as something goes up you can work off that.


 
This alone is gold. This alone would have made your practice worthwhile. Sounds like you got some good training; i envy you. 

Now grasshopper put videos up make Yoda see. Pretty please.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Apr 5, 2009)

> I've never heard of Ali Rahim - does anyone have any links for him?
> Augustine Fong is apparently very good - my friend used to be an instructor of his and he is pretty good


 
Acctualy Ali Rahim used to be a member of this forum. And a very knowladgable on if I may add, but then he got banned becouse of a missunderstanding. Graychuan is a student of his. Here's his youtube chanell: http://www.youtube.com/user/alirahim1

Forgot to mention Gary Lam and Wan Kam Leung-this Wong Shun Leung guys are pretty awsome.

Thanks for the review bully, sounds like a cool training session!


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 6, 2009)

Eru Ilúvatar;1151813 said:
			
		

> Acctualy Ali Rahim used to be a member of this forum. And a very knowladgable on if I may add, but then he got banned becouse of a missunderstanding. Graychuan is a student of his. Here's his youtube chanell: http://www.youtube.com/user/alirahim1
> 
> Forgot to mention Gary Lam and Wan Kam Leung-this Wong Shun Leung guys are pretty awsome.
> 
> Thanks for the review bully, sounds like a cool training session!


 
He got banned? Oh no, why was that? I've been banned on other forums before. I got banned from the International Wing Chun (Jim Fung's) forums because I kept accidentally mentioning BJJ on there!

There's a Gary Lam seminar in the UK soon (keep meaning to look it up) and I trained with Wan Kam Leung - he is an extremely interesting wing chunner and very humble. I love his youtube clips

I've not seen much of Wong Shun Leung's stuff - does he have any schools in the UK?

Had my private with Kevin Chan and he said my forms were spot on, which almost mae me cry with happiness. Couldn't even get close to catching him in chi sao. The guy is an amazing talent


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## chisauking (Apr 7, 2009)

Kamon guy: You say you have trained with sifu Wan Kam Leung. May I asked, what did you train in, and did you chisau \ gwohsau with him?

Also, you say you can't get close to kevin chan in chisau, but do you actually try to take his space and control him with full power, or is it like a tai chi session?

This isn't some sort of trick question. Just curious to see how you actually apply \ interpretate chisau, since you'd mention on quite a few occassions that you were a BIG guy.


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 8, 2009)

chisauking said:


> Kamon guy: You say you have trained with sifu Wan Kam Leung. May I asked, what did you train in, and did you chisau \ gwohsau with him?
> 
> Also, you say you can't get close to kevin chan in chisau, but do you actually try to take his space and control him with full power, or is it like a tai chi session?
> 
> This isn't some sort of trick question. Just curious to see how you actually apply \ interpretate chisau, since you'd mention on quite a few occassions that you were a BIG guy.


Certainly, no problem

It was a seminar taken by Wan Kam Leung and organised through James Sinclair
It lasted a few hours and I got to touch hands with him. He is really quick but in a subtle way. ie, his hands almost teleport into new positions

As for Kevin Chan, basically he starts off nice and light helping you to work positions etc and then he says 'let's do free chi sao' and makes you feel like a little child!! His movement is so good that he just outpositions me everytime. We do chi sao numerous ways in Kamon (ie we try to learn all the different ways and then find a way that suits us)
For example, we have a senior level instructor Roy Fretwell who trains with us and who is like a rock. His gung lik is such that my arms ache after about two minutes of rolling! He trains his chi sao in a similar style to that of people under Ip Chun (ie good structure and little movement)

With Kevn, I can grab his arms and attempt to close space but he is always one step ahead. It is weird, as like you say, I'm three times his size, but that doesn't matter. It is similar to how a large boxer would fight a small boxer. The small boxer would outpace the big boxer every time. Sure the big guy can hit hard, but if he can't catch him, he can't hit him!!!


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## chisauking (Apr 8, 2009)

I was going to see sibak Wan Kam Leung at the seminar, but I'd injured myself badly the week before, so I'd decided it was best I stay away. If I'd attended, I wouldn't have been able to resist chisauing with all the people, and therefore risk injuring myself further.

Sifu Wan pocess genuine wing chun skills, and people stepping up to chisau \ gwohsau with him would have a measure of their own skills. Like all the outstanding wing chun sifus, he's willing to put his reputation on the line by chisauing with anybody and everybody.

Being such a BIG guy, you would have problems finding a good training partner. Most people that train with you would have to use indirect wing chun -- using evasive actions -- rather than face you head on. It's good for your smaller partner, but it makes it difficult for you to train your suong-ma structure. If you ever get the chance to chisau \ gwohsau with a good big guy, don't miss it. It's a different experience.

Any way, it's good that you are willing to meet other wing chun practitioners and chisau with them. I meet a lot of big wing chun guys since I frequently visit Germany with Gary (a lot of the German guys are BIG), so I already have a good idea in my mind how you would chisau. Now that you've explain yourself a little, I have a clearer picture.

I don't want to digress Bully's thread too much, so I will leave it here.


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 9, 2009)

chisauking said:


> I was going to see sibak Wan Kam Leung at the seminar, but I'd injured myself badly the week before, so I'd decided it was best I stay away. If I'd attended, I wouldn't have been able to resist chisauing with all the people, and therefore risk injuring myself further..


You don't have to chi sao hard. Chi sao should be fun and humble. Who cares who hits who? Like I say to my students, when I chi sao or spar at class, I don't really remember if someone dominated or if I dominated - I'm more concerned with learning something
Kevin Chan helps you to get hits in - he isn't bothered if you get a lucky shot in, but obviously if I was catching him repeatedly then sure he would need to reassess his positions. But I wouldn't think Kevin Chan was crap. 
I didn't get anywhere close and that said more about my own training and what I have to do



chisauking said:


> Sifu Wan pocess genuine wing chun skills, and people stepping up to chisau \ gwohsau with him would have a measure of their own skills. Like all the outstanding wing chun sifus, he's willing to put his reputation on the line by chisauing with anybody and everybody..


His reputation would never be on the line if he chi sao'd with me and I caught him. Who cares? The guy has 40 years or so experience in wing chun and I would be more interested in learning than trying to catch him out. I think many sifus out there are worried to chi sao or spar because they think that if they get caught they will be dismissed. It's sad to see that. Anyone is welcome down after my class to play and spar if it is done with pure intentions. It is like a game of tage you play as a kid. Do you remember who tagged who? I played numerous games of rugby when I was younger and I honestly can't remember who won which game



chisauking said:


> Being such a BIG guy, you would have problems finding a good training partner. Most people that train with you would have to use indirect wing chun -- using evasive actions -- rather than face you head on. It's good for your smaller partner, but it makes it difficult for you to train your suong-ma structure. If you ever get the chance to chisau \ gwohsau with a good big guy, don't miss it. It's a different experience..


Thanks in part to Kamon having massive guys - http://www.kamonwingchun.com/News.aspx#28
I can get good wing chun done when I train. 

I'd love to chi sao with someone like Sammo Hung or Chow Yun Fat who are a little bigger than the average kung fu guy and considerably talented

Hopefully when I go to Hong kong this year I'll get to go with a whole range of guys



chisauking said:


> Any way, it's good that you are willing to meet other wing chun practitioners and chisau with them. I meet a lot of big wing chun guys since I frequently visit Germany with Gary (a lot of the German guys are BIG), so I already have a good idea in my mind how you would chisau. Now that you've explain yourself a little, I have a clearer picture.


I'm actually very light for my size. I have a long way to go with regards to chi sao, but it is only one part of my training and I would rather work on realistic techniques as the threat is always out there (only last week my mate got 'done over' in broad daylight)


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## chisauking (Apr 9, 2009)

kamon guy:You don't have to chi sao hard. Chi sao should be fun and humble. Who cares who hits who? Like I say to my students, when I chi sao or spar at class, I don't really remember if someone dominated or if I dominated - I'm more concerned with learning something
Kevin Chan helps you to get hits in - he isn't bothered if you get a lucky shot in, but obviously if I was catching him repeatedly then sure he would need to reassess his positions. But I wouldn't think Kevin Chan was crap. 
I didn't get anywhere close and that said more about my own training and what I have to do

csk: No one said you had to chisau hard, but that is part of the equation. Also, if you don't care and don't remember the results of the session, what are you learning? As far as who cares who hits who, I think the teacher, for one, would.

His reputation would never be on the line if he chi sao'd with me and I caught him. Who cares? The guy has 40 years or so experience in wing chun and I would be more interested in learning than trying to catch him out. I think many sifus out there are worried to chi sao or spar because they think that if they get caught they will be dismissed. It's sad to see that. Anyone is welcome down after my class to play and spar if it is done with pure intentions. It is like a game of tage you play as a kid. Do you remember who tagged who? I played numerous games of rugby when I was younger and I honestly can't remember who won which game

csk: Well, he's not only chisauing with you, is he? If a sifu has over 40-years' experience, and he looks bad in chisau \ gwohsau with shorter term students, off course it reflects badly on him. In other words, he's putting his reputation on the line. If you purport to teach boxing, and any tom, dick or harry can hit you easy, it doesn't look good on you, does it? By comparing good chisau with tag, I seriously question your comprehension of chisau. Good chisau has power, structure, hitting, control of opponent's balance, etc., etc. It's nothing like tag, as you say. Tag is when you touch your opponent, and he touches you. Poor analogy. Even still, I would be concerned if my opponent could tag me at will, and I can't 'tag' them. If I were to lose at any game, I would remember it, because I try to learn from my mistakes. I try to analyse what I had done to let my opponent in.

I'd love to chi sao with someone like Sammo Hung or Chow Yun Fat who are a little bigger than the average kung fu guy and considerably talented

csk: since neither summo or chow yun fat actually practice wing chun, I think your wish is pretty difficult, don't you think?

Hopefully when I go to Hong kong this year I'll get to go with a whole range of guys

csk: Sure you would, but don't expect anyone near your size.

I'm actually very light for my size. I have a long way to go with regards to chi sao, but it is only one part of my training and I would rather work on realistic techniques as the threat is always out there (only last week my mate got 'done over' in broad daylight) 

csk: The way I read this (above) is you feel chisau \ gwohsau isn't realistic as what you prefer to train in. Well, all techniques contained within chisau is as realistic as the practitioner is capable of applying. Off course, it's far easier just to kick \ box.

It's quite clear our understanding of chisau is worlds apart, but I'm sure with your experience of wing chun from a master, it's very obvious you are right.

I bow to your knowledge & experience, my big friend.


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 10, 2009)

chisauking said:


> csk: No one said you had to chisau hard, but that is part of the equation. Also, if you don't care and don't remember the results of the session, what are you learning? As far as who cares who hits who, I think the teacher, for one, would..


I'm not talking about remembering the results of the session
If I chi sao with someone for an hour and in that hour they hit me 40 times, I'll probably remember they got in me easily, but if I learnt something from that session I'd remember that more, and CARE about that more. In my private session with Kevin, I think I might have caught him once, but he still defended it adequately. Yet ask me in a year and I probably won't remember. However what he showed me with regards to structure alignment will stick with me forever
I teach wing chun, and if one of my students caught me (one did last week), I wouldn't get all pissy and beat him up. I would be proud that I have taught him so well that he is getting better than me!!



chisauking said:


> csk: Well, he's not only chisauing with you, is he? If a sifu has over 40-years' experience, and he looks bad in chisau \ gwohsau with shorter term students, off course it reflects badly on him. In other words, he's putting his reputation on the line. If you purport to teach boxing, and any tom, dick or harry can hit you easy, it doesn't look good on you, does it? ..


That is the nature of sparring. Muhammed Ali had a famous incident in his early days where an absolute nobody was sparring with him and caught him with a jab. Ali was extremely impressed and complimnted the guy, before beating seven bells of ***** out of him in the ring
When I spar in the gym, I don't know who I'm up against or what background they have. Certainly at Kamon, we have beginners who have done years in boxing and so sometimes surprise you. I enjoy that. I get more out of that than me just beating the crap out of someone. My favourite phrase - you can learn more from one defeat than a thousand victories



chisauking said:


> By comparing good chisau with tag, I seriously question your comprehension of chisau. Good chisau has power, structure, hitting, control of opponent's balance, etc., etc. It's nothing like tag, as you say. Tag is when you touch your opponent, and he touches you. Poor analogy. Even still, I would be concerned if my opponent could tag me at will, and I can't 'tag' them. If I were to lose at any game, I would remember it, because I try to learn from my mistakes. I try to analyse what I had done to let my opponent in..


Exactly and now you are getting into the right mindset. There is no win or lose in chi sao, but you are always working on improving your chi sao
If someone hits me, I look to work on closing those gaps or neutralising the attack. I don't preoccupy myself with trying to hit the guy

csk: since neither summo or chow yun fat actually practice wing chun, I think your wish is pretty difficult, don't you think?..[/quote]
What the hell was Sammo doing in Warriors Two then? lol
I know they aren't masters of wing chun, but they do know it, just as Jackie Chan does, as well as Jet Li
Hung is very good friends with several chun masters (Ip Chun and dare I say it Leung Ting...  yeuch)



chisauking said:


> csk: Sure you would, but don't expect anyone near your size...


 When my two friends went over, they met three guys who were a foot taller than them. Remember that we aren't alone in our desire to train with Ip Chun and people from all over the world usually stop by. Hence we could be playing with Americans or Russians (ie big guys!)etc



chisauking said:


> csk: The way I read this (above) is you feel chisau \ gwohsau isn't realistic as what you prefer to train in. Well, all techniques contained within chisau is as realistic as the practitioner is capable of applying. Off course, it's far easier just to kick \ box...


Yes but its like me saying I can spar in boxing which means I can fight well in the street. Sparring is just a drill to help work position
Whilst I don't like equating chi saoing to sparring, they are both tools martial arts use to improve you. That isn't how you should fight in the street etc
What we gain from chi sao is the ability to recognise gaps and changes in energy which is very useful in the real world, but you won't poon sao with someone who is attacking you



chisauking said:


> It's quite clear our understanding of chisau is worlds apart, but I'm sure with your experience of wing chun from a master, it's very obvious you are right.
> 
> I bow to your knowledge & experience, my big friend.


no no, i can be just as wrong as the next guy


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## chisauking (Apr 10, 2009)

Kamon guy: I'm not talking about remembering the results of the session
If I chi sao with someone for an hour and in that hour they hit me 40 times, I'll probably remember they got in me easily, but if I learnt something from that session I'd remember that more, and CARE about that more. In my private session with Kevin, I think I might have caught him once, but he still defended it adequately. Yet ask me in a year and I probably won't remember. However what he showed me with regards to structure alignment will stick with me forever
I teach wing chun, and if one of my students caught me (one did last week), I wouldn't get all pissy and beat him up. I would be proud that I have taught him so well that he is getting better than me!!

csk: No one suggested counting every hit within chisau, but it's important to file away, mentally, the session so that one can review their performence afterwards, and it's isn't 'who cares' as you'd stated previously. Nor had I expressed in any way that one would seek vengence if they got hit within chisau.

kamon guy: That is the nature of sparring. Muhammed Ali had a famous incident in his early days where an absolute nobody was sparring with him and caught him with a jab. Ali was extremely impressed and complimnted the guy, before beating seven bells of ***** out of him in the ring
When I spar in the gym, I don't know who I'm up against or what background they have. Certainly at Kamon, we have beginners who have done years in boxing and so sometimes surprise you. I enjoy that. I get more out of that than me just beating the crap out of someone. My favourite phrase - you can learn more from one defeat than a thousand victories

csk: The analogy you chose to use doesn't reflect my point. No one is perfect and there will be times when they will be caught out, but if most of Ali's opponent could hit him at will, he wouldn't be the champion he was, would he? It's no different when a proffesional wing chun instructor steps up to chisau \ gwohsau with anyone and everyone. I'm sure not many students would follow him if most people can hit him easy. My orginal point was that not many wing chun teachers are willing to chisau with all, and if they did, they would be putting their reputations on the line. How many times do you see teachers \ instructors chisauing with other people besides their own students? When was the last time you'd attended a wing chun seminar and the instructor offered to chisau with everyone?

kamon guy: Exactly and now you are getting into the right mindset. There is no win or lose in chi sao, but you are always working on improving your chi sao
If someone hits me, I look to work on closing those gaps or neutralising the attack. I don't preoccupy myself with trying to hit the guy

csk: So, the results of the chisau is important, and not 'who cares' and 'don't remember' as you'd stated. If you don't remember, how would you know what to work on?

kamon guy: What the hell was Sammo doing in Warriors Two then? lol
I know they aren't masters of wing chun, but they do know it, just as Jackie Chan does, as well as Jet Li
Hung is very good friends with several chun masters (Ip Chun and dare I say it Leung Ting... yeuch)

csk: Summo is just the choreograher, and sometimes have a vested interest in the films. Just in case you don't know, it's just films -- make beliefs. Michelle yoeh was in wing chun, do you really think she knows wing chun? LOL. Frankie chan played the part of the emperor's son in prodigal son, do you really think Frankie knows gungfu? Jackie comes from Peking opra, and Li lin kit comes from wushu -- they know as much wing chun as my mum! Next you will be telling me Leo is a great wing chun practitioner because he was the ONLY wing chun person acting as consultant for the yip man film, lol.

kamon guy: Yes but its like me saying I can spar in boxing which means I can fight well in the street. Sparring is just a drill to help work position
Whilst I don't like equating chi saoing to sparring, they are both tools martial arts use to improve you. That isn't how you should fight in the street etc
What we gain from chi sao is the ability to recognise gaps and changes in energy which is very useful in the real world, but you won't poon sao with someone who is attacking you

csk: If you can spar in boxing, it's an indication you can use boxing techniques in a fight. If you can't spar in boxing, there's no chance you can use boxing in a fight. The same is true of chisau \ gwohsau in wing chun. In wing chun, chisau \ gwohsau is our method's way of guaging our skills. We can tell many things about ourselves and our opponent by their chisau skills. If we can apply the tools of wing chun within chisau \ gwohsau, then it's an indication that we can apply those tools in a fight. If you can't apply it even in chisau, then you have no chance of applying it in real time. Sure, people can still win you without displaying skills in their respective style. It's like a lot of wing chun people don't actually use wing chun in a real fight to defeat their opponent. It was just that they were stronger and bigger than their opponent.

In a good wing chun school, all the tools taught are applicable in a real fight. Yes, even poon-sau is used in a fight, if not, why learn it? Only someone that don't comprehend wing chun fully would say they learn things in class which has no fuctional application in a fight. In which case, it would be foolish to spend time on it.


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 11, 2009)

chisauking said:


> csk: The analogy you chose to use doesn't reflect my point. No one is perfect and there will be times when they will be caught out, but if most of Ali's opponent could hit him at will, he wouldn't be the champion he was, would he? It's no different when a proffesional wing chun instructor steps up to chisau \ gwohsau with anyone and everyone. I'm sure not many students would follow him if most people can hit him easy. My orginal point was that not many wing chun teachers are willing to chisau with all, and if they did, they would be putting their reputations on the line. How many times do you see teachers \ instructors chisauing with other people besides their own students? When was the last time you'd attended a wing chun seminar and the instructor offered to chisau with everyone?.


Do you know the reason for that? It is because chi saoing with people from other schools is like asking a tiger to fight a shark. If the tiger fights his way on land, the shark will die. If the shark fights his way in the sea, the tiger will drown. Every chunner does chi sao differently, which is half the reason I'm going to Hong Kong. I'm not expecting to go there and start attacking Ip Chun etc - what is the point? I've been to numerous seminars where the instructor chi sao'd with as many people as they could
It is just a drill. It is not a sign of how good a fighter you are. I know loads of chunners who think that way, and in all honesty, I would destroy them in a fight, mainly because they think because they can chi sao well, they can fight well. It is not the same thing. It is just like saying, I can skip rope really well, so I can fight well. Chi sao is building your arms and footwork to be better, but realistically, chi sao covers around 20% of your fighting game
If I had played chi sao the way Kamon played chi sao, I would have caught Wan kam Leung out. That is not because he is rubbish, but merely because I am doing the drill on my terms. An example I will give was the Alan Orr chi sao competition that was held at SENI last year. Everyone was excited, but when they looked at the rules, people were horrified. You weren't allowed to step backwards and the rules limited down the normal movements that you came to expect in chi sao. It wasn't Orr's fault - he was trying to organise an event to get all the chunners together. The point was that it was on his terms, ie his school had practised not moving back. I don't think he intended it deliberately, but that is what happens in that kind of thing. People train chi sao differently. Some use gung lik, some use sung lik, others move more, others don't move their feet. If you play that persons game, then of course they will catch you. But that is why you need to start seeing chi sao as a drill rather than a way of fighting. The best (and most extreme) example is like me saying to you come and spar with me using punching/boxing and then me kicking you as well as punching. It just depends on the rules you have trained the drills in



chisauking said:


> csk: So, the results of the chisau is important, and not 'who cares' and 'don't remember' as you'd stated. If you don't remember, how would you know what to work on?.


I'm talking about not caring about being hit. If a person shows me something to work on (as Kevin Chan did with me), then I will remember that and go away and study. I am saying that I won't care or remember if a person hit me numerous times in one session. In Kamon people at my level always catch each other and there are only a handful of people that can really dominate (ie someone you can't catch at all). I'm not going to go away and cry just because they tore apart my chi sao. 
Quite frankly I would get bored if I went round and no-one could get a hit in.



chisauking said:


> csk: Summo is just the choreograher, and sometimes have a vested interest in the films. Just in case you don't know, it's just films -- make beliefs. Michelle yoeh was in wing chun, do you really think she knows wing chun? LOL. Frankie chan played the part of the emperor's son in prodigal son, do you really think Frankie knows gungfu? Jackie comes from Peking opra, and Li lin kit comes from wushu -- they know as much wing chun as my mum! Next you will be telling me Leo is a great wing chun practitioner because he was the ONLY wing chun person acting as consultant for the yip man film, lol..


This made me chuckle. A lot. Are you serious with this? Donnie Yen spent hours with Ip Chun working on chi sao (there is a great clip of him on youtube doing it). Of course they aren't masters of wing chun - that would be like saying Keanu Reeves could teach kung fu. The point is that these guys DO train kung fu. Sammo was training a huge amount of wing chun for prodigal son. Of course he won't be as knowledgable as some of the wing chun masters around, but he will be able to chi sao and due to his skill in other systems he will be quick and powerful
As for Leo, I made my feelings clear on another thread where I was berated for calling him an idiot. Ironically, he is using his choreography as a basis for promoting his school ("come and train with the guy who choreographed 'Yip Man'"... No joke)



chisauking said:


> csk: If you can spar in boxing, it's an indication you can use boxing techniques in a fight. If you can't spar in boxing, there's no chance you can use boxing in a fight. The same is true of chisau \ gwohsau in wing chun. In wing chun, chisau \ gwohsau is our method's way of guaging our skills. We can tell many things about ourselves and our opponent by their chisau skills. If we can apply the tools of wing chun within chisau \ gwohsau, then it's an indication that we can apply those tools in a fight. If you can't apply it even in chisau, then you have no chance of applying it in real time. Sure, people can still win you without displaying skills in their respective style. It's like a lot of wing chun people don't actually use wing chun in a real fight to defeat their opponent. It was just that they were stronger and bigger than their opponent..


That is a great misconception. If you are a good sparrer, you are not necessarily going to be able to use boxing in a fight. Generally, if you box well, you can hold your own, but there are so many factors that limit you when you spar. This is the same argument as why cage fighting is not the same as street fighting. In a spar, you know who you are fighting, you are generally wearing protection, you have time to warm up, you have a set space to work within (which is usually flat and easy to move on). The list goes on



chisauking said:


> In a good wing chun school, all the tools taught are applicable in a real fight. Yes, even poon-sau is used in a fight, if not, why learn it? Only someone that don't comprehend wing chun fully would say they learn things in class which has no fuctional application in a fight. In which case, it would be foolish to spend time on it.


That is utter nonsense. You use sil nim tao in a fight? You use lok sao in a fight? You might take aspects of these drills into the fight arena, but you train these drills to build up your muscle memory, sensitivity and speed. If you truly believe that you will poon sao with someone in a streetfight, then good luck to you


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## chisauking (Apr 11, 2009)

Kamon guy: If I had played chi sao the way Kamon played chi sao, I would have caught Wan kam Leung out.

csk: What can I say, Kamon's chisau must be at an extremely high level. Should have proved that to yourself when you had the chance.

Your skill & experience must be at a very high level. I won't emberrass myself anymore by saying things which shows my lack of understanding of wing chun.

I will try harder to improve on my wing chun before making a fool of myself by speaking to you, so you might not hear from me any time soon.

thanks for the lesson, big guy.


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 11, 2009)

chisauking said:


> Kamon guy: If I had played chi sao the way Kamon played chi sao, I would have caught Wan kam Leung out.
> 
> csk: What can I say, Kamon's chisau must be at an extremely high level. Should have proved that to yourself when you had the chance.
> 
> ...


 
You missed the point entirely (and I think you are being a little sarcastic). It is not a question of being good. It is how you play the game. If I play a game of baseball with you (I love my analogies), and at the last minute say to you that you are not allowed to hit the ball with bats, you would be at a disadvantage because that is how you trained. Kamon has some very good chi sao players, but we do things very differently from many other schools (ie we collapse structure)

When I went to the seminar, I considered myself a 'guest' in Wan Kam Leungs 'house', so trying to catch him out or embarass him when he is there helping to show us what he does would not be very nice. He is a very good practitioner of wing chun and probably would have put a hole in my chest for my troubles. With 40 years experience, he knows a lot, but no-one is untouchable. People can be 'awkward' to train with and people get lucky hits in or have an on day

I went to another seminar with two of Ip Chun's oldest/best students. They were great guys and very old. When they chi sao'd with me however, they were stumped. Not because I am some kind of wing chun superman, but because they had not trained with someone like me before
Yet I didn't come away thinking 'oh they weren't good at all, they couldn't hit me in chi sao'. I came away impressed that they were still training at their age and on some of their theories

The second point you missed was that chi sao is not a win or lose drill. It is a tool used to enhance several parts of you. By hitting Wan Kam Leung, I would have just shown myself to be an absolute idiot

I love the beginning part of Yip Man when Yip spars with the kung fu master. The kung fu master gets owned, but is excited by it. That is how everyone should train.


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## matsu (Apr 12, 2009)

chisauking..can i ask, is it just me or was it your complete intention just to find fault with kamon guy or just be argumentative or the sake of it and wether it benefitted any of us or even yourself or that matter?

i,m sure thet you are way more knowledgable than i,but this was not a constructive debate from where i was sitting!

just my tuppence.
matsu


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 12, 2009)

matsu said:


> chisauking..can i ask, is it just me or was it your complete intention just to find fault with kamon guy or just be argumentative or the sake of it and wether it benefitted any of us or even yourself or that matter?
> 
> i,m sure thet you are way more knowledgable than i,but this was not a constructive debate from where i was sitting!
> 
> ...


 
Thankyou Matsu
I am hoping that chisauking was not being sarcastic (as his tone implied), as this is the kind of attitude that makes it difficult for chunners of other schools to train with each other

Training shoudl be fun and playful without egos

I know that Yip Man (in his early life) used to 'reckon himself' before he was beaten by another chun practitioner who eventually became his teacher. That kind of stuff happens. We can all learn from each other

Those that know me know that I'm an average martial artist with a passion for wing chun kung fu

Sadly some people thank that martial arts is all about winning and losing
Yet they don't realise that it comes down to a simple fact
Martial arts are fluid

If I go into a cage match with a guy tomorrow and beat him, there is nothing to stop him training for two years and coming back and beating me. Who was better?

Royce Gracie found that. He used to rule the cage but then lost and then people were saying he wasn't that good. Yet, if he offered to teach me something I would jump at the chance. You can learn something from anyone. Of course there are people better than others, but trying to quantify how good you are in comparison to other martial artists is impossible. Sure you can beat a man in a fight, but was it through luck? Was it through knowing more than he did? Was it through being mentally tougher then your opponent? So many factors, and yet people will continually judge a persons skill on winning and losing

That's just sad


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