# Healing or aiding in psychosis



## SwindtPGH (Dec 19, 2007)

I am diagnosed with a psychotic disorder (possibly schizophrenia) and I was wondering if there were any healing arts that would aid in this disorder? Yoga? Tai chi? Meditation? Etc. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## tellner (Dec 20, 2007)

I'm not qualified to answer that question. But I would strongly urge you to follow your doctor's advice and use other healing methods as a supplement. Herbal remedies in particular can react with other medication in unpredictable ways. 

Fortunately, treatment for these disorders has improved dramatically in the last few decades. 

Good luck. G-d bless.


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## shesulsa (Dec 20, 2007)

First of all, don't stop your medications if you're taking any.  

I can't imagine that if you're healthy otherwise and any antipsychotic meds you may be taking aren't interfering with your balance that exercise would hurt you.

Talk to your doctors about something like Yoga - it is quieting, relaxing and all exercise helps map the brain.

But you should REALLY TALK TO YOUR DOCTORS.

A.L.A.E.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Dec 20, 2007)

> I am diagnosed with a psychotic disorder (possibly schizophrenia) and I was wondering if there were any healing arts that would aid in this disorder? Yoga? Tai chi? Meditation? Etc. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


 I think it would be best to speak with your doctor and look at the pro's and con's of the different alternative treatment.
From what I know alternative treatments do have methods of dealing with these types of disorders but because of other factors such as medicine and dosage, how severe, and other factors it can be hard to say which route to go. By becoming educated in your condition and educated in what other methods of healing provide and presenting this to your doctor can the right method be applied. Examples of alternative medicine that can cause problems certain herbs that relax can cause contraindication when taken with powerful antipsychotics. Certain visualization methods could cause problems. Alot of people think for example if they have heart problems to use beta blockers, aspirin, CQ enzyme and a cauldron of other herbs and supplments only to have more problems than they begin with. 
The thing with psychitrists is their scope in alternative medicine is limited so your research into it and presenting it to them could help in dealing with your condition.


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## jks9199 (Dec 20, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> First of all, don't stop your medications if you're taking any.
> 
> I can't imagine that if you're healthy otherwise and any antipsychotic meds you may be taking aren't interfering with your balance that exercise would hurt you.
> 
> ...


To repeat... 

*DO NOT STOP YOUR MEDS* without your doctor's support and guidance.  I've had to deal with too many folks who stopped their meds 'cause they felt better... leading to a rapid decline.

Beyond that, I'm not a doctor.  Your doctors are the best ones to consult for advice.  I suspect that they'd say that any exercise is generally a good thing; I bet they'll steer you more towards yoga or tai chi than something like MMA/kickboxing or kyukushin karate with lots of heavy, hard contact.  (Note that there are non-contact approaches -'cuz I doubt you need blows to to the noggin!- to training in many martial arts, and there ARE contact aspects to some forms of tai chi; I simply tried to pick out the extreme ends of the spectrum.)  And, be realistic in your expectations.  Yoga/martial arts aren't likely to cure a very serious psychological issue -- and psychosis, especially schizophrenia, is about as serious as they come.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 20, 2007)

SwindtPGH said:


> I am diagnosed with a psychotic disorder (possibly schizophrenia) and I was wondering if there were any healing arts that would aid in this disorder? Yoga? Tai chi? Meditation? Etc. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


 
Certain Psychotic disorders can be treated my Traditional Chinese Medicine, but it takes a highly trained Practitioner of TCM to successfully treat them which means a trained OMD usually a graduate from a TCM university in China with years of practice in Chinese Hospitals and someone that has specialized in the treatment of Psychotic disorders. And it would take a combination of Acupuncture and Herbal and possibly Qigong. However with that said I do not think that schizophrenia is one that they treat although I am not 100% sure about that. You also would need to find someone willing to treat it and that in the US would be difficult even from a person trained as I previously mentioned. They simply do not have the access both physically and legally to the needed Herbal and necessary treatment facilities and equipment.

Best advice is what has already been said Follow your doctors advice and discuss the pros and cons of alternative treatments but you may also want to discuss this with someone who is trained in TCM as I mentioned but those people are few and far between in the US, if they are here at all, I know of a few that are very well trained in TCM and graduates of TCM Universities in China and that worked in Hospitals there but they did not specialize in the treatment of psychological disorders and likely would not attempt to treat schizophrenia.

EDIT:
Also understand that if you do find someone that will talk to you about this (that is trained as I said) that they might be absolutely clueless as to what schizophrenia is. Not because they do not know of the disorder they simply know it in Chinese not English and they will need to look it up. So if they ask you to spell it that is what they are doing.


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## tellner (Dec 20, 2007)

There are MDs who are also fully certified doctors of TCM and Ayurvedic medicine. If you are interested in pursuing alternative therapies to supplement the Western approach you really need to get one of them to consult with your psychiatrist.

JCA is right about researching your treatment. It's always good to know about the alternatives and become an active participant in your care rather than a passive subject.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 20, 2007)

tellner said:


> There are MDs who are also fully certified doctors of TCM


 
Be very leery of these for anything TCM. They are not required to have anywhere near the training they should in TCM (in many states) to be very effective with it or have a full understanding of it


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## tellner (Dec 20, 2007)

At least in this state if you want to put "Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine" up there with your MD you need to go through exactly the same training and certification as anyone else who wants to be a DTCM.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 20, 2007)

I just checked and schizophrenia is treated in China by TCM but it is treated by people who specialize in its treatment in specialty hospitals that are specifically for psychological disorders


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Dec 21, 2007)

Xue is correct in regards to those who know proper treatment for mental disorders. Here in the states average TCM who graduates does so in about 24 month program. I would imagine someone using Acupunture would use Ghost points or other points to calm the spirit. The thing with most doctors in the west know very little outside their scope of practice.
But interesting is alternative medicine is becoming more recommended by western doctors. It is very important to educate yourself on your disease
and bring up the alternative medicine Example for me I got a bacteria from eating at Subway which caused Heart burn/Acid reflux doctors wanted to give me Nexum(was becoming a popular stomach drug at the time) I looked into what could cause Acid reflux what can relief Acid reflux. I ate Yogurt which has probiotics killing the bacteria Papaya which also has powerful enzymes
and banana  a cooling food . I cured my Acid reflux and have been problem free for 6 years with no heart burn or Acid reflux.
The point is Doctors may not know about food being able to cure problems as much as they know pills with a free steak dinner does. 
I was talking to a psy doctor friend of mine and the talk came up about Marijuna usuage to help people relax instead of anti anxiety medicines.
He said you do not know what is in the marijuna when you buy it on the street. I told him I agree but if it were legal again and pure the health benefits could be greater than most anti anxiety medicines which affect the liver and can make symptoms worse.


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## Empty Hands (Dec 21, 2007)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I would imagine someone using Acupunture would use Ghost points or other points to calm the spirit.



I would really love it if any chinese medicine devotees could explain to me how sticking needles in peripheral nerves will even out the flow of dopamine in the middle of the brain.

Also, schizophrenia is only an intermittent disorder of an "uncalm" spirit.  Most of the time someone with schizophrenia has blunted emotions and thought processes.  They feel less, not more.  Only during intermittent episodes will the dopamine flash over in the central circuits and cause psychotic episodes.



JadecloudAlchemist said:


> The thing with most doctors in the west know very little outside their scope of practice.



In the case of schizophrenia, they know enough to attack the root of the problem, dopamine circuits in the brain, instead of "ghost points" in the periphery.

The following link is to a meta-analysis of five studies looking at the use of acupuncture to treat schizophrenia.  In the words of the authors "We found insufficient evidence to recommend the use of acupuncture for people with schizophrenia."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/e...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Without large, well controlled studies, everyone claiming that this or that does so much good is simply relying on unfounded belief and anecdote.


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## kaizasosei (Dec 21, 2007)

i have heard that certain circles of psychology do not accept the notion of schizophrenia.  - 

most everyone has problems and fears of some sort.  it's just whether or not it becomes known to the outside.   after there is some sort of judgement of mental illness, measures like meds and other treatments, the individual becomes more and more at mercy of the external. literally spiraling out of control.  so it would depend if the external person that is helping is good or not.  
however, i think that a person is fully capable of being happy on their own.  not saying there arent good therapists, gurus or spiritual guides out there. but at the end of the day, everyone should be entiteled to a certain degree of dignity and independance. 

diagnosis by professionals are quite powerful.  often they are spot on.   whether or not certain treatments and judgements are correct or not is a different matter.  i would say that therapists often reach into the realm of the destructive.  and there are also plenty of instances where they are totally off and their diagnosis exaggerated.  after all, unlike ailments of the body, technically, anyone can just make up reasons for things or come up with theories, it is hard see their true motives. 
in my opinion tho, a therapist should always be someone that is very trustable.  someone that really reaches out somehow.

as far as meds go. i'm against them.  i think it's ok for someone to take medication when in an extremely difficult situation in life.  but then, the goal should be to get off the meds as soon as possible in a controlled way with the assistance of the physician that prescribed them.
i believe this because i have seen how powerful those drugs can be in various situations.  the brain can become quite unstable through the medications influence of dopamine synthesis.  that can cause all kinds of fears anxieties neurogenic shocks.  especially when one stops abruptly without the doctors advice. or if certain drugs or worse experiences persist or medication is not integrated well enough.  

usually, on the meds, one can be sure to be somewhat stable because the medication is designed to work that way.  

take care and get off the meds eventually.

i think youd be better off yet searching for herbs in some library.

j


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## kaizasosei (Dec 21, 2007)

well, if you act different, your dopamine will also become different.  so is it the chicken or the egg?   is the change in dopamine changing the experience ,or is the experience balancing the internal chemical situation?
  one thing i know for a fact from past experiences.  when you take phychopharmaceuticals, they override all your actions and all your nutrition as well as alter your brain chemistry to make you addicted to the altered state that is so dangerous to break off abruptly.  -  fact


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## Cruentus (Dec 21, 2007)

kaizasosei said:


> i have heard that certain circles of psychology do not accept the notion of schizophrenia.  -



That is because Schizophrenia tends to be used as a "garbage category;" where if the symptoms don't fit anything else in the DSM, they are inclined to label people as schizophrenic. A problem in psychological diagnosis is that doctors and patients tend to view these as lifetime labels. So if you are a "schizophrenic" then you will always be one in their minds. There leaves no room for any kind of cure or learning to function well with the abnormality. And, if your misdiagnosed (which is common for schizophrenia)? Well, you could find yourself carrying that label regardless of the truth behind it.

The key is, take everything with a grain of salt, but don't do anything on your own either. It would be very dangerous to stop taking meds and researching your own cures, for example. Continue with your doctor; and if you don't like his treatments then find another doctor who you think is a better fit. And try to find someone who is conservative with med perscriptions. 

That is the best you can do. Physical activity like martial arts or any of the mentioned activities is always helpful; but it will be a combo of things that will help the patient out, and mind/body exercise is just one of those things...


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## Empty Hands (Dec 21, 2007)

kaizasosei said:


> i have heard that certain circles of psychology do not accept the notion of schizophrenia.  -



Anyone that does not is an idiot.  It is one of the most common serious mental diseases out there, affecting about 1% of the population.  It has an identified mechanism in the dopaminergic pathways of the mesolimbic and mesocortical regions of the brain.  Anti-dopaminergic drugs have had a proven effect in reducing or eliminating psychotic episodes in patients for over 40 years now.

Disbelieving schizophrenia is like disbelieving asthma.



kaizasosei said:


> most everyone has problems and fears of some sort.  it's just whether or not it becomes known to the outside.   after there is some sort of judgement of mental illness, measures like meds and other treatments, the individual becomes more and more at mercy of the external. literally spiraling out of control.



You have no idea what you are talking about.  Serious mental illnesses such as clinical depression or psychosis have little to no cognitive component.  You can't think your way into or out of schizophrenia.



kaizasosei said:


> unlike ailments of the body, technically, anyone can just make up reasons for things or come up with theories, it is hard see their true motives.



Serious mental illnesses are amenable to the same scientific tools as any other illness, such as an infection or asthma.  No one just dreamed up schizophrenia.

Do you understand how the scientific process works in medicine, psychiatric or otherwise?



kaizasosei said:


> As far as meds go. i'm against them.  i think it's ok for someone to take medication when in an extremely difficult situation in life.  but then, the goal should be to get off the meds as soon as possible in a controlled way with the assistance of the physician that prescribed them.



Jesus H. Christ, have you ever known someone on psychiatric meds?  Even read about them?  There are serious conditions for which the meds offer the only hope of relief, and the condition never goes away.  Just like JKS says, such people feel better, go off the meds, and go right back into psychotic episodes.  Do you have the slightest idea what treatment was like for schizophrenics, for instance, prior to the invention of anti-psychotics?  It involved confinement, restraint, and beatings.  Now it involves a somewhat normal life.

Some people have serious conditions which require medication.  Belittling them for taking the meds is just as foolish as belittling the choice of a diabetic to take insulin or someone with an infection to take antibiotics.  



kaizasosei said:


> I think youd be better off yet searching for herbs in some library.



Oh yeah, much better off.   If a herb has any effect in your body, it is because it has some level of an effective drug in it.  Thus, taking a herb has the same potential complications as taking the synthesized, purified drug - and that's assuming the herb even works.

Anti-psychotics have a documented scientific history going back more than 40 years detailing how they work to curb psychotic episodes.  Anyone with a serious psychosis would be a fool to substitute with herbs until the herbs have at least as good a track record.


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## Empty Hands (Dec 21, 2007)

kaizasosei said:


> well, if you act different, your dopamine will also become different.  so is it the chicken or the egg?   is the change in dopamine changing the experience ,or is the experience balancing the internal chemical situation?



No, that just isn't true.  No trauma, no experience, no ill thought, no punishment from your mother, no psychosexual fantasies, nothing you can possibly think or feel or experience will cause psychosis.  No study has ever linked such experiences with schizophrenia or similar.  It is telling however that schizophrenia does have an inherited component.



kaizasosei said:


> one thing i know for a fact from past experiences.  when you take phychopharmaceuticals, they override all your actions and all your nutrition as well as alter your brain chemistry to make you addicted to the altered state that is so dangerous to break off abruptly.  -  fact



Well, I wouldn't doubt it now that you proclaim it as fact. 

No one claims that psychopharmaceuticals are without side effect.  One must always balance risk and reward.  Nonetheless there are people with severe enough illnesses that such meds offer the only chance at a normal existence.

Your alarmism is unbalanced.


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## kaizasosei (Dec 21, 2007)

trust me, i know what i am saying.  i know i may not have expressed myself clearly enough.  hope that it is enough.  

about the thing with schizophrenia and astmah being the same is very wrong in my opinion.   maybe it is you who doesnt know as much as you think you do. 

the question is, do you even know what it is like without meds if you have never taken a differnt approach.

keep in mind i wasn't completely against the meds. i just wanted to point out how dangerous they can be.


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## kaizasosei (Dec 21, 2007)

> No, that just isn't true. No trauma, no experience, no ill thought, no punishment from your mother, no psychosexual fantasies, nothing you can possibly think or feel or experience will cause psychosis. No study has ever linked such experiences with schizophrenia or similar. It is telling however that schizophrenia does have an inherited component.




i can't believe what i am reading here


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## kaizasosei (Dec 21, 2007)

i mean i do know that everything is inherited but everything else makes me wonder if that is exactly what You meant.  -no experience has effect on people.


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## Empty Hands (Dec 21, 2007)

kaizasosei said:


> trust me, i know what i am saying.  i know i may not have expressed myself clearly enough.  hope that it is enough.



No, I'm not just going to trust you.  I have a Master's degree in Neuroscience.  I spent three years reading and studying about this subject before I moved on to a PhD in heart research.  I can post all of my sources.  Can you, other than your personal experiences?



kaizasosei said:


> about the thing with schizophrenia and astmah being the same is very wrong in my opinion.   maybe it is you who doesnt know as much as you think you do.



I didn't say they were the same thing Mr. Strawman.  I said schizophrenia is as real as asthma and can be investigated using the same scientific tools.



kaizasosei said:


> the question is, do you even know what it is like without meds if you have never taken a differnt approach.



Yeah, we already found that one out more than 40 years ago.  Like I said, confinement, restraint and beatings.



kaizasosei said:


> keep in mind i wasn't completely against the meds. i just wanted to point out how dangerous they can be.



You said they should only be used in the most extreme circumstances, and should be gotten off of ASAP.  You also said one would be better off taking herbs.  Sounds pretty anti-med to me.


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## Empty Hands (Dec 21, 2007)

kaizasosei said:


> You meant.  -no experience has effect on people.



No, that is not what I meant and not what I said.

I said, no experience will make you *psychotic*.  There is a large difference between "an effect" and "psychosis."  PTSD is an effect, which can be caused by experience.  Delusions and auditory/visual hallucinations secondary to schizophrenia is a *psychosis*, and is not caused by experience.


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## kaizasosei (Dec 21, 2007)

> I didn't say they were the same thing Mr. Strawman. I said schizophrenia is as real as asthma and can be investigated using the same scientific tools.




yeah i know that's what you think. i wonder however, mr.brainiac, if you have the ability to understand what i am saying.  that would be appreciated.

however, you seem like someone i wouldn't even like to joke around with much less try to discuss in a serious way.
i trust you and your papers as little as you trust me.


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## kaizasosei (Dec 21, 2007)

> I said, no experience will make you *psychotic*. There is a large difference between "an effect" and "psychosis." PTSD is an effect, which can be caused by experience. Delusions and auditory/visual hallucinations secondary to schizophrenia is a *psychosis*, and is not caused by experience. 		 	 		 		 		 		 		 		 			 				__________________



this i can agree with and relate too. i have  sometimes spent time wondering what exactly is wrong with some cases....but most of the time, i think that brain chemistry and owns life circumstances go hand in hand.  it's almost impossible to separate.
of course grave imbalances within the brain as well as the household will have deep or longlasting effects that are hard to pinpoint.


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## Empty Hands (Dec 21, 2007)

kaizasosei said:


> yeah i know that's what you think. i wonder however, mr.brainiac, if you have the ability to understand what i am saying.  that would be appreciated.



What have I failed to understand?  I have addressed your points, and scientifically speaking, they are *wrong*.  Science is no respecter of niceties, politeness or personal opinions.  You are spreading falsehoods that have been shown to be incorrect using the scientific method, the best empirical tool available.  The fact that a sick person might take your advice and act on it makes me feel absolutely ill, which is why I have countered you so strongly in this thread.  

I have a schizophrenic aunt in my family.  She thinks the government is after her.  She sees laser rays from government owned mountaintops striking her home, and infecting her brain.  Her life is a shambles.  The fact that someone would stand in her way of getting the proper help she needs is enraging to a man of science.



kaizasosei said:


> i trust you and your papers as little as you trust me.



I don't trust you or distrust you.  I have no basis for either.  It is also completely, utterly, and totally irrelevant to our posts in this thread.

The fact that you distrust my "papers" however is very telling.  It says you will refuse to believe in science if it goes against your personal beliefs and opinions.  You and Big Don should discuss Global Warming.


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## kaizasosei (Dec 21, 2007)

ok. sorry to keep this going like this but i did mean what i said somehow.
about the delusions and the schizophrenia one must almost differentiate between different types and degrees of the conditions in questions. and even aside from all chemical evidence- one cannot so easily understand the totality of why people are as they are.  however, i am not arguing with science and accept much.  but i think there many things that could be improved in my opinion.

if i am not mistaken empty hands, you may have slightly prescribed your medication a little too heavy already because originally the theme of this thread seemed to me to be geared more towards general diagnosis as schizophrenic- psychotic.- drugs and what is the correct course of action. 
not really the heavy stuff although i understand your expertise may shed light as to the what is going on within the brain -

for all i know, focusing only on the brain chemistry may prove successful, because i have seen that many other approaches are not possible.  
still i think it would be  tedious process of analysis -that may even be traumatic for the patient.

k


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## kaizasosei (Dec 21, 2007)

> The fact that you distrust my "papers" however is very telling. It says you will refuse to believe in science if it goes against your personal beliefs and opinions. You and Big Don should discuss Global Warming.



yeah, that's exactly what i thought...keep telling yourself stuff -einstein.  just  don't be to rough on yourself ok..

peace


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## Empty Hands (Dec 21, 2007)

kaizasosei said:


> yeah, that's exactly what i thought...keep telling yourself stuff -einstein.  just  don't be to rough on yourself ok..
> 
> peace



Uhhh...what?  Look, if you refuse to believe the scientific evidence, than conversing with you has reached it's end.  I only hope the other readers in this thread have seen this rejection, as well as my willingness to post the scientific evidence.

Hopefully that will allow the readers the discernment to ignore your points about mental illness.


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## kaizasosei (Dec 21, 2007)

sounds fair to me---i was about to tell you to go back to the pill despensing machine---
but i would retract, sure-whatever- i'm open to learning more of your studies if you'll care to share.- if you think im full of it.it's all good, you have the right to your opinion.


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## jks9199 (Dec 21, 2007)

I'm not personally aware (and I've had a fair bit of psych education) of any psychotherapist that doesn't accept that some forms of schizophrenia exist.  Psychotic breaks do happen; functional MRIs and autopsies can even find definite differences in how those brains work.  But they don't agree on the reason or causation...  Some - but not all - definitely appear to be chemical or structural within the brain.

With regard to psych meds, prescribed and used appropriately, they're fantastic.  For chemical depression, for some forms of psychosis, for bipolar disorder, and more -- they make night and day differences for the client/patient.  The drugs are making or helping their brain work "normally"; some can be weaned, but many cannot.  However, used inappropriately, they can simply muddle the symptoms and vastly complicate the client's treatment.  An easy example is the prescription of Ritalin for kids; currently, some school systems are all but writing the prescription, without the necessary thorough evaluation by appropriate clinical specialists.  We're doping kids without knowing why they're have behavorial or learning problems...  and we're doping kids who would be better served by other treatment.  

The other problem with psych meds is that they all tend to have powerful, and often extremely unpleasant side effects.  As a result, the clients often cease taking their meds...  which can trigger even worse symptoms.


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## jks9199 (Dec 21, 2007)

kaizasosei said:


> trust me, i know what i am saying. i know i may not have expressed myself clearly enough. hope that it is enough.
> 
> about the thing with schizophrenia and astmah being the same is very wrong in my opinion. maybe it is you who doesnt know as much as you think you do.
> 
> ...


 
OK... what's your background to support your viewpoint.

In the course of obtaining my bachelor's degree in criminal justice, I took enough psych courses that I was well beyond the requirements for a minor (a minor in psychology wasn't offered at the college I attended), and was within something like 2 or 3 classes of a full major in psychology.  In addition to that, professionally, I've had to deal with psych patients, of many diagnoses, both on and off their meds.  I've taken people involuntarily into custody, and had my decision validated by psychologists when they committed the person.  

And I don't claim to be an expert!  I know enough to speak intelligently with the experts.  Instead of saying "acting strange and hearing voices", I can describe "a flattened affect, with auditory hallucinations."

What are your qualifications to dismiss the proven efficacy of appropriate psycho-pharmaceutical intervention, or the existence of recognized physical and psychological disorders?


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## jks9199 (Dec 21, 2007)

Empty Hands said:


> I have a schizophrenic aunt in my family.  She thinks the government is after her.  She sees laser rays from government owned mountaintops striking her home, and infecting her brain.  Her life is a shambles.  The fact that someone would stand in her way of getting the proper help she needs is enraging to a man of science.



Just on the note of causation of psychotic symptoms -- I have seen drugs cause psychotic symptoms.  I once was dealing with a woman in town who, on the first incident, called us to report that people delivering furniture had stolen her purse.  We learned a few days later that she'd hidden her purse... because she was sure that they were going to try to steal it.  She called again a few days later because she was sure that her bank was sending the "phone police" to steal her records... 

After discussing the case with her family -- we learned that she had recently changed a few meds (I don't know the details; I'm not a doctor!  I know some of them were blood pressure or heart related...)  Some adjustment of those meds by her doctor, and she no longer suspected that the phone police were lurking in wait for her...


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## kaizasosei (Dec 22, 2007)

> I'm not personally aware (and I've had a fair bit of psych education) of any psychotherapist that doesn't accept that some forms of schizophrenia exist. Psychotic breaks do happen; functional MRIs and autopsies can even find definite differences in how those brains work. But they don't agree on the reason or causation... Some - but not all - definitely appear to be chemical or structural within the brain.



i think that this is exactly what is happening here.  a subtle misunderstanding.  but it would really help to try to express the different viewpoints.  

i know that some people have such intense experiences or fear or panic that they would not be able to do seemingly normal activities without being on medication.  i can accept if someone feels that it is the best thing for them.  in that case, they wouldn't listen to me anyway.  but if possible, medling with the inner workings of the brain and basic wellbeing of ones brain and therefore entire self-should be avoided if possible.  if it is not possible for reasons of the medication being very helpful or the patient becoming addicted,     if the medication is truly helpful, it should not be changed in my opinion. any changes must be ordered with extreme care.

my advice for quiting the medication, was to do it with the assistance of the doctor that prescribed them and if possible their support. they will know how to be wheened off if it is so desired.  it must be done gradualy.


sorry to regress but, as far as herbs in libraries go, i meant earlier, there are no herbs in libraries.  
but libraries are a places of knowledge and herbs can be healing. 
of course there are poisonous herbs too.  conversely libraries too contain much madness as well as lies- .  so maybe it was a dumb line. i dunno- still no harm done i feel

j


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 22, 2007)

Just as a point of reference

schizophrenia

Any of a group of psychotic disorders usually characterized by withdrawal from reality, illogical patterns of thinking, delusions, and hallucinations, and accompanied in varying degrees by other emotional, behavioral, or intellectual disturbances. Schizophrenia is associated with dopamine imbalances in the brain and may have an underlying genetic cause. 

Also more here
http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/schiz.htm


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## BrandiJo (Dec 22, 2007)

Ok, really heated thread here i see. 

Treating mental illness of any kind involves control and balance. Meds have serious side affects, herbs are less proven in American culture, they both may be good and they both may be helpful, however when you cannot function in day to day life then something needs to be done. It would be irrational and dangerous to go check out a book from the library and treat yourself, if you wish to go for a more natural approach find a DR who supports that and can safely (SAFELY) help you.  

I know many people who cannot function with out the medication they are on. When they stop taking the meds or miss a douse they become ill, both from their mental illness and the withdrawal effects of the medication. I do tend to agree that medication is over used and over pushed by most Drs( mostly cold and add meds but thats another debate), however some people really do need them. I know one person very close and very dear to me would not be here today if she were not on medications to keep her stable and it took us a long time to find the right combination to help her. With proper use and proper prescribing the medications should not change who you are they should only help keep the real you in control. Not the one who thinks the world is out to get them and the only solution is to kill them selfs and anyone else. 

Science has prove many times that mental illness is real,we have shown chemical imbalances in the brains of those affected, and while i do not know the ins and outs of all those studies, i can share from my own experiences that medications do help when used properly and with care.


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## BrandiJo (Dec 22, 2007)

kaizasosei said:


> i know that some people have such intense experiences or fear or panic that they would not be able to do seemingly normal activities without being on medication.  i can accept if someone feels that it is the best thing for them.  in that case, they wouldn't listen to me anyway.  but if possible, medling with the inner workings of the brain and basic wellbeing of ones brain and therefore entire self-should be avoided if possible.  if it is not possible for reasons of the medication being very helpful or the patient becoming addicted,     if the medication is truly helpful, it should not be changed in my opinion. any changes must be ordered with extreme care.
> 
> 
> 
> j


I do not know of a single Dr who would prescribe a mind altering drug with out extreme care, to suggest that one does it on a whim is a slap in the face to the medical community as a whole. Also meddling with the inner workings of the brain sometimes is the only way to help... ohh like having a tumor removed. There you are cutting into the brain, removing tissue, and then putting in rather large does of a known toxin (kemo) yet i know very few people who would argue that the tumor is better left in place, and we can give them a herb and see if that makes it all better. Most people when faced with a decision of should i do this and  live or not do this and die (and yes people with mental illnesses face that too) they chose to live and medical intervention is sometimes the only way possible. Because believe me when you cant even get yourself out of bed in the morning because life feels so bad, death may just well be a preferable solution (not a good one mind you but preferable to staying in that situation) and with out medication they may not find relief.  Now i am not saying that herbs do not work and cannot treat some things, even many things, but when it comes down to quality of life, i would rather go with pills that have a track record of working.


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## kaizasosei (Dec 22, 2007)

well, i do think there are plenty of people who are not aware of the effects of their actions.  even doctors cannot know everything.  nor can the companies that make medication know everything.  however, on a whole an attempt is made to keep everything controlled. - that is why extreme care must be taken by everyone in general as i am not limiting this to the administering of medication(which really is a big responsibility) but everything in life that involves responsibility.

about the herbs.  i know that modern medication in the form of  asprin antidepressants  may seem  really  great  in  the bottles that it is packed in,  but  many if not most the ingredients for medication come from nature.- that means also herbs- even if something is synthesized in a lab, it often has natural origin.  but i get what you're saying -because on a whole-the meds are more concentrated and potent.

about the schizophrenia, as i feel uncomfortable without further explaining myself.  i really am not up for much arguing and bashing in this case.- basically, i believe that many disorders are labelled as schizophrenia to the point that the subject becomes less credible.  not saying there is no schizophrenia-although i mentioned that there are people that are professionals which believe that the causes and effects of schizophenia are something else.  i have some ideas, but i myself am not sure exactly what those professionals believe, but i know that they are out there.  whether or not their opinion makes them an idiot would depend on what the truth is-#

as far as i am concerned anyone is an idiot that is not enough aware of their actions.  

i didn't know -on a whole-that the medical community had a face to slap.  that makes me wonder how much slaping of their own they are doing.?  
what is a slap?  could you exlplain to me how it would be a slap in the face of the medical community?  as far as i see it, that should be like wrestling with a ghost.  

i know it was meant as an expression.  but honestly?, does the medical community on a whole(slightly idealistic sounding) even have the ability to be offended?  i mean, slap in the face sounds very hands on and physical.

also, life is not purely physical.  not like a tumor, people have experiences and suffering that cannot be cut away without understading cannot be removed without devotion.  that is why many extreme cases of illness are almost futile to heal without medication. because it would take a whole set of new experiences and from the genetic point of view possibly even more of a challenge. 

i would compare it saying life is a tumor.  there are good tumors and bad tumors right?? a normal person is like a good tumor and a 'ill' person is like a bad one.  and that is one tumor that you'd fist have to understand really well before you can even hold a blade to it.

j


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## jks9199 (Dec 22, 2007)

kaizasosei said:


> about the schizophrenia, as i feel uncomfortable without further explaining myself. i really am not up for much arguing and bashing in this case.- basically, i believe that many disorders are labelled as schizophrenia to the point that the subject becomes less credible. not saying there is no schizophrenia-although i mentioned that there are people that are professionals which believe that the causes and effects of schizophenia are something else. i have some ideas, but i myself am not sure exactly what those professionals believe, but i know that they are out there. whether or not their opinion makes them an idiot would depend on what the truth is-#


 
And, you'd be wrong.  Any reputable mental health professional is extremely reluctant to make a diagnosis of any form of schizophrenia, because that diagnosis is so far reaching and has such a powerful stigma attached.  Some diagnosises, like situational depression or chemical depression (yes, they're different), don't have nearly the stigma attached that they once did.  Not schizophrenia... In fact, if anything, I'd argue that due to increasing misuse and misunderstanding of the disorder, it's got a greater stigma than ever.

I'd accept your argument for overdiagnosis of ADHD/ADD and many other learning disorders; schools are encouraging the diagnosis for a number of reasons such as ease of labeling and managing the student or acquiring grant money.  Parents sometimes seek a diagnosis of some learning disorder to gain advantages for the kids on standardized tests*.  THEY AIN'T SCHIZOPHRENIA*.

Several of us posting on this have explained our qualifications and reasons for knowing about psychology and psychological disorders; I challenge you again to do the same.  You're spouting ideas without any support or logic behind them; tell us why we should be listening.


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## kaizasosei (Dec 22, 2007)

> OK... what's your background to support your viewpoint.
> 
> In the course of obtaining my bachelor's degree in criminal justice, I took enough psych courses that I was well beyond the requirements for a minor (a minor in psychology wasn't offered at the college I attended), and was within something like 2 or 3 classes of a full major in psychology. In addition to that, professionally, I've had to deal with psych patients, of many diagnoses, both on and off their meds. I've taken people involuntarily into custody, and had my decision validated by psychologists when they committed the person.
> 
> ...




sorry for doubling..

about me.  i don't have any formal qualifications.  i have studied some on my own but i am by no means anywhere close to being an expert in these fields. i do know enough or realize enough to have an opinion however.


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## kaizasosei (Dec 22, 2007)

through martial arts and close observation i have come to see things as i do.  i am not making that many final statements.
all i'm doing is telling you my opinion.  disgard anything you think is not true but please try to understand as i am trying to understand the other viewpoints. i would be really glad if anyone would correct me, i would accept  any  reasonable explainations.


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## tellner (Dec 22, 2007)

kaizasosei, I'm afraid your logic has been pretty thoroughly taken apart. And you haven't done too well on facts, evidence or the basics of scientific inquiry. The assertions backed up by weasel-words like "many", "some" and "I think" aren't cutting it.

Best to retire gracefully from the field and leave it to the ones who are doing a better job on these scores.


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## kaizasosei (Dec 22, 2007)

> i would compare it saying life is a tumor. there are good tumors and bad tumors right?? a normal person is like a good tumor and a 'ill' person is like a bad one. and that is one tumor that you'd fist have to understand really well before you can even hold a blade to it.




when i made this comparison. i left out that this is the attitude that i see you having.  not that it is wrong.  but it is an attitude. that's for sure. 
i wonder if everyone would be so mean and cocky if it we were discussing in person.  i myself value the ability to understand where people are coming from.  communication is very important i feel.  


hey tellner.  who asked you.  thanks for the tip but i'll retire when i feel like it- do you understand that?  if you had cared to explain why my logic has been taken apart you wouldn't come off as so heartless. 




j


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## BrandiJo (Dec 22, 2007)

kaizasosei said:


> \
> 
> 
> hey tellner.  who asked you.  thanks for the tip but i'll retire when i feel like it- do you understand that?  if you had cared to explain why my logic has been taken apart you wouldn't come off as so heartless.
> ...




He has pointed out a very simple fact we are using logic and personal experiences with explanations You however are not. You are refusing to accept our "proof" yet say you will, when shown it, and you are not using what most people would call sound logic.

Tellner however was rather polite, maybe the next person wont be as kind with their words as he was.


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## kaizasosei (Dec 22, 2007)

umm, you are the next person.


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## BrandiJo (Dec 22, 2007)

kaizasosei said:


> umm, you are the next person.


I am the next person? 

what does that mean? or what are you referring to?lol


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## kaizasosei (Dec 22, 2007)

i mean, you are the next person to be seemingly warning me of my errors.  i suppose that is not a bad intention...but about you being the next person. - but i get you- whatever- in your case, i didn't feel too offended, but even if someone gets really dirty whatever- most i might end up flattered.  but in the case of getting all indignant just because i shared my personal opinion in which i purposely mention that i am not a practicing professional,  i  find  childish as well as aggressive in a negative way.   

since when has it become a requirement on this forum to be a psychologist?


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## kaizasosei (Dec 22, 2007)

--
btw
i think we are really making progress!


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 23, 2007)

One question

What does any of the recent discussion have to do with the original question?



SwindtPGH said:


> I am diagnosed with a psychotic disorder (possibly schizophrenia) and I was wondering if there were any healing arts that would aid in this disorder? Yoga? Tai chi? Meditation? Etc. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


 
Please carry on this bickering is so productive


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Dec 23, 2007)

Here is a great article on Acupunture from Acupunture.com
http://www.acupuncture.com/conditions/schizo.htm 

I have been reading this thread and the orginal question dealt with HEALING ARTS and even listed some. The orginal post seems not interested in Pills and modern Psychology answers to their problem or not the ONLY answer to their problem. With that said The best approach is for the person to examine alternatives and present them to their doctor who is issuing treatment and knows their medical background and history.
To go on and say this works and this does not work or this is better and this is worse really does not address the person's quest for info in alternative healing which is the basis of their question because only their doctor and his patient can say is it or is it not the best treatment.
So to get back on track I presented the views of Acupunture, I cautioned the usage of herbs and mixing with precribed medicine.
Lets also look at Yoga, Shiatsu, Martial arts, that may not treat or cure a certain condition but may help a person outlook in coping with it.
Thats really all I have to say concerning this matter.


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## Cruentus (Dec 25, 2007)

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here (been gone anyways for a few days). Just want to throw some data into the mix:

We don't really know what Schizophrenia is, folks. We have a bunch of possible symptoms as described in the DSM, but we are not certain of many things about it, particularly causal factors. We have only theories, as well as theoretical solutions. Pharmacological treatments sometimes work, and sometimes don't; and in neither case are these treatments without consequence. Generally what occurs is that the person is displaying abnormal (and usually maladaptive) behaviors that don't quite fit any other category in the DSM; so they get labeled as a schizophrenic. Sometimes this is "correct," and sometimes it is not.

The thing is, it is hard to know if it is a correct diagnosis when we really don't know what the diagnosis really is. Again, no real understanding of causal factors; just a series of possible symptoms coupled with inconclusive theories. Well, because of this, people get misdiagnosed all of the time (although how often exactly is not certain or conclusive either):

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/s/schizophrenia/misdiag.htm

Furthermore, it gets even trickier when drugs enter the mix. How do you treat people with something that is supposed to be a somewhat empirical method (medication) when your diagnosis and understanding of the illness is  about as ambigious as you can get in the medical community? What you end up with, sometimes, is the treatments being more damaging then the "illness." For example, Neuroleptic drugs are generally given to schizophrenic or psychotic patients; but one of the side effects is TD which is a disfiguring disorder of the central nervous system resulting in a variety of involuntary movements, particularly of the tongue, lips, and jaw. muscle movements. This would of course make a "schizophrenic" person seem even more so, wouldn't you think?

There are many problems with the pharmacological approach that I don't even have the time to get into. The argument is quite far reaching among MD's and Psych PHd's; so there is know way that we'll crack it on an internet forum. 

On the other hand, though, a major problem with schizophrenic patients is that most (over 1/2) are not actually aware of their own illness. This further complicates things.

Anyway, I can go on and on, but the basic conclusion is this: 1. Medication is not without side effects, is not always the answer, and therefore should be used only as a last resort. And 2. If you have been diagnosed with schizophrenia or some other serious mental illness, DO NOT try to treat this or diagnose yourself, or do ANYTHING on your own -  always involve your doctor. If an entire medical field does not have all the answers regarding your illness, then you aren't going to find those answers on your own. Work with your professionals. And, your doctor should be someone who doesn't try to pretend to know all the answers, but who does want to find what will work for you to get you the help you need.

Anyway, I have no idea what else to say on the matter...


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## rabbit (Jan 3, 2008)

It can be pretty bad to look mental ill and be it too. Some people breathed through their mouths as childeren due to allergies and developed a pretty strange look. (according to the article - I've seen it too) Take a look at this article and imagine someone with an akward posture (neck forward, shoulders inward, and the eyes look lost in the top of his head almost so he is looking upward to look forward.), and mental illness, and poor hygiene (picking nose, yellow teeth, etc. etc.) 

I don't wish that stigma upon anyone.... It is *very* *very* sad.

Here is the link:
http://www.atlantadentist.com/Mouth_Breathing.html


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## theEXxman (Jan 28, 2009)

And on pursuing chi-kung or tai-chi as an alternative or supplament to any psyc. treatment there is a thing called chi poisoning.   Which means if the chi flow is blocked or is flowing wrong it could make you sick physically or mentally.   And if your taking any kind of psyc. medicine on top of that then like it's been said before could contraindicate the medicine.   Best thing is to include your martial teacher and your doctor on what your doing so that both could tailor your treatment.


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## theEXxman (Jan 28, 2009)

But with my dealings with doctors these days I seem to find two camps.  Those who feel medications should be used as a last resort and those who shell out medication like its candy.  Not being a doctor and IMHO the medications I'm taking personally I would like to quit taking.   I've read the little papers that come with the medications and I've read the side effects and it just seems like the cure is worse than the symptoms.
That seems true with a lot of modern pharmaceuticals that these companies shell out to us.  I think that's why a lot of people now a days are seeking alternatives medicine  from those that has to do with anything from heart disease to giving birth to like this original poster.  So don't jump on this original poster for wanting to seek alternative means to heal or treat or supplement treat this affliction.   Maybe he doesn't want to die later on in life from liver problems maybe he wants a healthier life when he's in his 60's or 70's.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 28, 2009)

As a note

Psychologists in China are few and far between. Most disorders of this type are the realm of TCM. Which means acupuncture, acupressure, herbal, etc.


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## redantstyle (Jan 28, 2009)

> I have a Master's degree in Neuroscience.


 
this is chock full of win.


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## myusername (Jan 28, 2009)

SwindtPGH said:


> I am diagnosed with a psychotic disorder (possibly schizophrenia) and I was wondering if there were any healing arts that would aid in this disorder? Yoga? Tai chi? Meditation? Etc. Any help would be greatly appreciated.



Hello SwindtPGH,

It is difficult to offer any definate advice as we have no idea of how your psychosis manifests itself in you personally. Mental health is very individual and what some people find useful and therapeutic others may not. An example of this would be that some people enjoy and benefit more from group work/counselling than 1-1 therapy, where as for another person they may find group work very anxiety provoking but find individual 1-1 therapy very useful.

In general though activities, hobbies and regular routines are very good for mental health. They can build self esteem, provide useful distractions, provide routine and most importantly can be fun and enjoyable! Just because someone has a mental health diagnosis should in no way preclude that person from enjoying life! The activities you have suggested like Yoga, meditation and Tai Chi could potentially have some lovely benefits like learning to relax and the gentle exercise would encourage your body to release natural endorphins. However, not knowing how your psychosis effects you I would also be mindful of potential stresses. For example if you experience mind racing or persistant disturbing voices you may find meditation very difficult and may need a different activity that is more likely to offer you a distraction from those symptoms. Alternatively you may find meditation helps you settle your mood. The only way to find out is by trying it out and if you find it helpful carry on but if you find it stressful try something else.

In terms of traditional chinese or alternative medication I suggest checking in with your doctor first. All you need to know is whether it interacts with your current medication. It does not matter if your doctor thinks that it is all hocus pocus as all that matters is whether you find it helpful and that it does not interfere with your prescribed medication.

I will now wade into the medication debate! But I do recognise that at no point did you yourself say anything about not taking prescribed medication so I am typing this more as a reaction to other posters on this thread.

Firstly I better reveal my bias, I am a mental health nurse working in the UK national health service, so like others, I will stress that you work closely with your doctor and certainly don't suddenly stop taking any prescribed medication. I am not saying that you have to just accept everything that your doctor says! The people that I have worked with that do best are the ones who have open and honest negotiations about medication and treatment with their doctor. All good doctors will recognise that medication can effect different people in different ways, one person may get side effects whilst the next person may not. There is a huge amount of choice now when it comes to psychiatric medication and it is well known that people respond individually to medication. What is important to remember is that some side effects will completely disappear after two weeks of starting a medication. Also, stopping some medications suddenly (such as Lithium) can have a rebound effect increasing the chances of relapsing and becoming ill again. Therefore always negotiate with your doctor, if you find that you have side effects to your medication and these are unbearable it may be the case that you need to reduce the current medication slowly whilst you are titrated on to a different medication. This sort of thing should only be done with the support of an expert, so again I say always, always consult with your doctor.

Anyway good luck with what ever you decide to do. I hope you find happiness and peace.


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## Flea (Feb 22, 2009)

Speaking as someone who also has a mental illness, I've found support groups to be a very powerful tool for recovery.  It can be lay-led, or done with a professional.  It's great because it challenges the isolating effect that mental illness can have, and members can learn coping skills from each other too.

Here's another tip ... it sounds weird, but do you have a pet?  They're great for companionship of course, but you can also train one to help you figure out what phenomena are real as opposed to hallucinations.  I know of a woman who hallucinated fire constantly after a brain injury.  She almost served jail time for calling in so many false alarms to the fire department.  One day she taught her dog to alert her to the presence of a real fire; now whenever she has any doubts, she has a command for her dog to confirm whether her "fire" is real.  He hasn't alerted her yet, and her reputation is clean at the fire department.

I hope this finds you well.  I know mental illness can be exhausting and frustrating; just remember that you're not alone in this.  You have a community of millions at your back if you choose to reach out for it.  Count me in ... you're welcome to PM me if you like.

Flea


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## theEXxman (Feb 24, 2009)

I'm going to put myself on a limb here, but being diagnosed with clinical depression I started seeing a therapist.  She works with a mental health firm.   She has been very encouraging with me on working on alternative health and meditation.  I told here that I had been studying Isshinryu karate since '98  and she has encouraged me to keep studying it and to keep doing the things I enjoy.   We've have a very good professional relationship and I've been bouncing some ideas of her of getting into the medical field, maybe becoming a physician or nurse or something ?.    For one thing I wanted to make sure everything was kosher as far as a background check and physical was conscerned. That being said and I'm not an expert by any means so take my advice with a grain of salt, but since you said you where diagnosed with schizophrenia why not talk to your psychiatrist(if you have one) or therapist and discuss with them that your very interested in alternative health maybe even martial arts.  You might be surprised that they might be very receptive and encouraging.   I was.


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