# A baseball bat as home self defense?



## Zombocalypse (Dec 31, 2022)

I'll enroll at my local BJJ gym but... I don't know man. I think a would-be criminal who's gonna try to harm me at home is not gonna fight with just fists. I can't (and won't) carry a firearm. I also can't rely on some pointy dagger because that's a _concealed weapon _and I don't feel comfortable carrying that anywhere. So I guess before I gain actual grappling skills, can I just fight my way out of a bad situation if I have a baseball bat in my room?

Is it gonna make a difference in a fight? I heard opinions from both sides. I heard of some kid trying to kill a trained cop using a baseball bat and failing miserably, while the cop didn't even have a weapon with him. I also heard about a taekwondo black belt getting mauled by a pissed-off thug with one swing of his bat.


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## Jared Traveler (Dec 31, 2022)

Zombocalypse said:


> I'll enroll at my local BJJ gym but... I don't know man. I think a would-be criminal who's gonna try to harm me at home is not gonna fight with just fists. I can't (and won't) carry a firearm. I also can't rely on some pointy dagger because that's a _concealed weapon _and I don't feel comfortable carrying that anywhere. So I guess before I gain actual grappling skills, can I just fight my way out of a bad situation if I have a baseball bat in my room?
> 
> Is it gonna make a difference in a fight? I heard opinions from both sides. I heard of some kid trying to kill a trained cop using a baseball bat and failing miserably, while the cop didn't even have a weapon with him. I also heard about a taekwondo black belt getting mauled by a pissed-off thug with one swing of his bat.


There is a lot to unpack here, you imply you are morally opposed to firearms, but not to bashing someone's brains out? Or you have a criminal record preventing you from carrying a weapon?

The simple rule is the bigger the knife/stick, the less martial arts skills you need. In other words, you don't need a high level of skill to hurt someone with a sword, brick or bat. However their are extreme limitations to this.

Because ultimately even though you have a bat, you really will not have skill at using the bat, retaining control of the bat, getting the bat back if someone takes it from you. It can be a simple effective solution, but is more likely going to result in false confidence.

Predictably being able to defend yourself does not come from shortcut solutions.


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## Zombocalypse (Dec 31, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> There is a lot to unpack here, you imply you are morally opposed to firearms, but not to bashing someone's brains out? Or you have a criminal record preventing you from carrying a weapon?
> .



Okay I normally wouldn't reveal personal information about myself but... No, I don't have a criminal record. I'm just a bit of a pathetic old dude who still lives with his mother. And probably will stay that way. lol.

As far as the morals of it, it's more to do with the opinions of cops. A huge part of why I like the idea of learning a grappling art is because I can neutralize enemies without throwing a strike, which makes it easier for cops to understand my position if they get involved into the ordeal. It's the same with a weapon. If I shoot someone with a gun, it's game over. I'm in prison.

So you are saying that a heavy weapon doesn't require too much skill to use?


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## Jared Traveler (Dec 31, 2022)

Zombocalypse said:


> Okay I normally wouldn't reveal personal information about myself but... No, I don't have a criminal record. I'm just a bit of a pathetic old dude who still lives with his mother. And probably will stay that way. lol.
> 
> As far as the morals of it, it's more to do with the opinions of cops. A huge part of why I like the idea of learning a grappling art is because I can neutralize enemies without throwing a strike, which makes it easier for cops to understand my position if they get involved into the ordeal. It's the same with a weapon. If I shoot someone with a gun, it's game over. I'm in prison.
> 
> So you are saying that a heavy weapon doesn't require too much skill to use?


Options are great. Having tools in your tool box come in handy, but it's good to use the right tool for the job. Respectfully your understanding of the police and how they investigate situations and why the make arrests is non-existent. I don't mean that to be offensive, but honestly your concerns and reasoning is not based in how things actually work.

It is always less complicated if you can restrain someone instead of shoot them. But you can more easily be killed trying to do that obviously. On the other hand shooting someone or hitting them with a bat is the same level of force as far as the police are concerned.


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## Buka (Dec 31, 2022)

Bats are kind of big to use in close quarters. And then there's the problem of the knuckleballer.


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## Zombocalypse (Dec 31, 2022)

Buka said:


> Bats are kind of big to use in close quarters. And then there's the problem of the knuckleballer.



But why would the aggressor be stupid enough to be in close quarters if he can see me brandishing a bat? I'm no elite military soldier, but I've experienced some violent times in the past. If a certain would-be aggressor sees you brandishing a weapon and he feels that you're crazy enough to use it against him, he's gonna be scared shitless.

And the idiots who couldn't sense how serious you are at the possible use of it will get hurt. I'm not really proud of it but I was really violent in a hostile environment when I was young. I only stopped being that way when I was old enough to get jailed. But trust me, I've experienced a bad neighborhood before. lol. It's been my experience that violent bullies will really only engage you in close quarters if they feel like you're no match for them. But if you have intent to fight back, it scares them off. And why would they not be scared if they can see you in a fighting stance with a blunt weapon when they are doing home invasion?

I'm not trying to argue. Just honestly confused. lol


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## Zombocalypse (Dec 31, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Options are great. Having tools in your tool box come in handy, but it's good to use the right tool for the job. Respectfully your understanding of the police and how they investigate situations and why the make arrests is non-existent. I don't mean that to be offensive, but honestly your concerns and reasoning is not based in how things actually work.
> 
> It is always less complicated if you can restrain someone instead of shoot them. But you can more easily be killed trying to do that obviously. On the other hand shooting someone or hitting them with a bat is the same level of force as far as the police are concerned.



Oh hey, thanks for being polite. No offense taken. But although I'm not an expert, I've dealt with cops a few times. It's been my experience that they will give you a chance to explain your position.

I don't know man. In my state, cops are not notoriously corrupt and abusive. Is it different in other states? The ones that I've dealt with seem to make the right decisions when you show them you're not committing a crime.


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## OLD DOG NEW TRICKS (Dec 31, 2022)

Zombocalypse said:


> I'll enroll at my local BJJ gym but... I don't know man. I think a would-be criminal who's gonna try to harm me at home is not gonna fight with just fists. I can't (and won't) carry a firearm. I also can't rely on some pointy dagger because that's a _concealed weapon _and I don't feel comfortable carrying that anywhere. So I guess before I gain actual grappling skills, can I just fight my way out of a bad situation if I have a baseball bat in my room?
> 
> Is it gonna make a difference in a fight? I heard opinions from both sides. I heard of some kid trying to kill a trained cop using a baseball bat and failing miserably, while the cop didn't even have a weapon with him. I also heard about a taekwondo black belt getting mauled by a pissed-off thug with one swing of his bat.


Baseball bat's are useless unless your fighting a baseball. Any Martial Art will improve your chances. But if you are going to use a weapon go with a approximately 2+ foot heavy pipe or a machete. If they have a gun then you better act fast. A revolver pistol is the best way to fight another pistol if you become trained in using it. No to the baseball bat, very easy to take away by just stepping in on the bat. I've done it many times and beat some sense into them after taking the bat away.


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## Zombocalypse (Dec 31, 2022)

OLD DOG NEW TRICKS said:


> Baseball bat's are useless unless your fighting a baseball. Any Martial Art will improve your chances. But if you are going to use a weapon go with a approximately 2+ foot heavy pipe or a machete. If they have a gun then you better act fast. A revolver pistol is the best way to fight another pistol if you become trained in using it. No to the baseball bat, very easy to take away by just stepping in on the bat. I've done it many times and beat some sense into them after taking the bat away.



Makes sense. But what about the majority of would-be aggressors? Will they know how to deal with my wild bat-swinging?

I mean bro... I've hit somebody _on the shoulder _with a thick, heavy bamboo pipe before. This is not the shin or the head. This was his brawny shoulders and he writhed in pain. A baseball bat that will swing faster than that bamboo is gonna cause much more damage.

Plus, when someone closes in the distance, all you gotta do is forcefully push him back. That's just instinctive. People have gotten in my face before and I just pushed them back.

I'm not trying to argue. I'm just trying to understand how it works.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2022)

Zombocalypse said:


> try to harm me at home ... in prison.


As far as I know in Texas, when someone breaks into your house and if you kill him inside your house, it's 100% legal.

A weapon that require to swing (need more space) is not as effective as a weapon that only require to stab (need less space). Sword should be a better choice.

I find the following logic don't make sense.

A: Why do you stop punching on your heavy bag?
B: I don't want to develop too much punching power. I'm afraid too much punching power can hurt my opponet and give me some legal problem.

Do those guys who train traditional weapon all end up in jail? I don't think so.


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## Buka (Dec 31, 2022)

Zombocalypse said:


> But why would the aggressor be stupid enough to be in close quarters if he can see me brandishing a bat? I'm no elite military soldier, but I've experienced some violent times in the past. If a certain would-be aggressor sees you brandishing a weapon and he feels that you're crazy enough to use it against him, he's gonna be scared shitless.
> 
> And the idiots who couldn't sense how serious you are at the possible use of it will get hurt. I'm not really proud of it but I was really violent in a hostile environment when I was young. I only stopped being that way when I was old enough to get jailed. But trust me, I've experienced a bad neighborhood before. lol. It's been my experience that violent bullies will really only engage you in close quarters if they feel like you're no match for them. But if you have intent to fight back, it scares them off. And why would they not be scared if they can see you in a fighting stance with a blunt weapon when they are doing home invasion?
> 
> I'm not trying to argue. Just honestly confused. lol


You mentioned having the bat in your room. I figured a room is close quarters.


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## Zombocalypse (Dec 31, 2022)

Buka said:


> You mentioned having the bat in your room. I figured a room is close quarters.



Oh... Okay we're just having some definitional mismatch then. To me there's only two. Far enough for a gun, close enough for a baseball bat. I didn't realize there's such a thing as "hugging range". lmao

Nah man. If someone gets close to me like that, I'll just push him away. Or throw a hook. Not a problem. Who the heck gets close to that on anyone? That's just suicide.


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## Zombocalypse (Dec 31, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> As far as I know in Texas, when someone breaks into your house and if you kill him inside your house, it's 100% legal.
> 
> A weapon that require to swing (need more space) is not as effective as a weapon that only require to stab (need less space). Sword should be a better choice.
> 
> ...



Okay thanks. I didn't see it that way.

So aside from a bat, I should also have a dagger?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2022)

Zombocalypse said:


> So aside from a bat, I should also have a dagger?


I have both of my Walter PPK and my 4 feet long Miao Dao next to my bed. To protect my wife in my own home is basic self-defense 101.


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## Zombocalypse (Dec 31, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have both of my Walter PPK and my sharp long sword next to my bed. IMO, to protect myself in my own home is self-defense 101.



Any dagger brand recommendations?

I prefer to value aesthetics more than utility. Am I wrong in saying that all pointy daggers/knives are pretty much as deadly as each other? I of course would not have a kitchen knife in my room for self-defense. If I was really poor, I would. But my mom is well off and I live with her. lol. She would be weirded out if I kept our meat-cutting knife in my room.

I really prefer a beautiful, well-crafted dagger unless there is some kind of design flaw that will make it ineffective. If it's durable, I'll take it. Cheap or expensive.

This is home self defense, mind you. I'm an athletic guy, so when I'm outside and in a relatively dangerous place, I'd just shoo weird people and run away. And I'm not stupid enough to walk in some isolated back alley.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2022)

Zombocalypse said:


> Any dagger brand recommendations?


Not sure it's a good idea to talk about which dagger is the best for killing online.


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## Zombocalypse (Dec 31, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Not sure it's a good idea to talk about which dagger is the best for killing online.



Alright.


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## wab25 (Jan 3, 2023)

Zombocalypse said:


> I'll enroll at my local BJJ gym but...





Zombocalypse said:


> I didn't realize there's such a thing as "hugging range". lmao
> 
> Nah man. If someone gets close to me like that, I'll just push him away. Or throw a hook. Not a problem. Who the heck gets close to that on anyone? That's just suicide.


Are you sure you know what you are signing up for when you enroll in your local BJJ gym?

Anyway, I would highly suggest learning about use of force and lethal force where you live. Using a bat, a knife or a gun can all be considered lethal force. Since you are talking about having these in your room... do you have Castle Doctrine where you live? (in some places you may have a duty to retreat) 

I can't help much with corrupt and abusive cops... but, it would be better for you to at least be on the right side of the law. Understand that these laws vary, depending upon where you are. Knowing the local law would be step one.


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## Tez3 (Jan 3, 2023)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> As far as I know in Texas, when someone breaks into your house and if you kill him inside your house, it's 100% legal.



I imagine though that the investigating police don't take it at face value that the person broke in. At least I hope they don't turn up and when the householder says they  killed an intruder they just go "okay fine" and leave.
We've had cases in the UK of self defence killings, the press and public indignation at the police investigating what seems to them 'justice' is fierce. In most cases the police investigation proves it was justified force but in one case, quite famous here, the householder was guilty. The media championed a farmer who had shot an intruder, loads of righteous indignation and 'an Englishman's home is his castle ' stuff. However it turned out the farmer had illegal shotguns, he's threatened to shoot people, had lured the intruders into his house which he'd boobytrapped and then shot one in the back while he was running away.


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## Gyakuto (Jan 3, 2023)

I was a magistrate here in the U.K. (and hopefully will be again) and in the course of ‘sitting on the bench’, discovered the the term ‘reasonable force’ is extremely fluid and open to interpretation. If a U.K. resident hears an intruder in their house, my suggestion is to lock yourself in a room and call the police for assistance because despite the reports of the legal system being lenient towards defendants who’ve hurt or killed intruders, it is pretty much a myth.

There are phrases you can use if you’re up in court for maiming or killing an intruder, that might help your case, but even so…<shudders>


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 3, 2023)

Tez3 said:


> I imagine though that the investigating police don't take it at face value that the person broke in.


In Texas, it's legal to shoot someone if you catch them in the act of vandalizing your car.


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## Tez3 (Jan 4, 2023)

Dirty Dog said:


> In Texas, it's legal to shoot someone if you catch them in the act of vandalizing your car.


There's the same point though. Police officers turn up to a car, a body and a car owner with a gun. Do they just take the car owner's word for it or do they investigate?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 4, 2023)

Tez3 said:


> There's the same point though. Police officers turn up to a car, a body and a car owner with a gun. Do they just take the car owner's word for it or do they investigate?


To clarify, it's not specifically your car. Texas law allows the use of deadly force to protect property, as well as people. Other places limit it to people only.

Do the police in the UK investigate?

Of course they do. It's sort of a ridiculous question.


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## wab25 (Jan 4, 2023)

Dirty Dog said:


> To clarify, it's not specifically your car. Texas law allows the use of deadly force to protect property, as well as people. Other places limit it to people only.
> 
> Do the police in the UK investigate?
> 
> Of course they do. It's sort of a ridiculous question.


I think Tez is referring to all the flak the UK gets in online forums when they investigate a "self defense" shooting. She is making the point that investigations are made everywhere... not just in the UK.

I think the real issue is the difference between American English and UK English. The UK source will use words and phrases that, in the UK, clearly mean that an investigation has been started. However, if you read those same words and phrases from an American English point of view, it sounds like the investigation is over, and the one "defending themself" has already been found in the wrong. I am guilty of making that mistake in the past.... and have seen quite a few people make that mistake to this day.... Even though we both speak English.... its not quite the same.


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## Zombocalypse (Jan 4, 2023)

Dirty Dog said:


> In Texas, it's legal to shoot someone if you catch them in the act of vandalizing your car.



Is that a common thing on US states? Or is Texas a bit of an outlier when it comes to that?


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## Zombocalypse (Jan 4, 2023)

wab25 said:


> Are you sure you know what you are signing up for when you enroll in your local BJJ gym?



Yes sir! Don't worry, I understand it's a grappling art. I simply thought that striking range and grappling range are lumped together into "close quarters".


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 4, 2023)

Zombocalypse said:


> Is that a common thing on US states? Or is Texas a bit of an outlier when it comes to that?


I do not know. I'm not a lawyer. I know about Texas law because I lived there for a time, and I have a daughter who still lives there. Which means I go there to visit.

If I were to guess, I would say Texas is an outlier. But, again, I have no proof.

I'm not interested in googling the lethal force laws in 50 states, but if you really want an answer, you can.


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## wab25 (Jan 4, 2023)

Zombocalypse said:


> Is that a common thing on US states? Or is Texas a bit of an outlier when it comes to that?


Here is the thing.... its not important or even relevant, what happens in the 49 other states. It only matters what the law says in the state where you are during the altercation. Thats why it is important for people to find out what the local law is, where they are. If you live in an outlier state, where you have a duty to retreat... and you use your baseball bat, without retreating.... it does not matter that in most other states, you would be cleared.... you would still be guilty of not retreating. That may change what you did, from "self defense" into assault with a deadly weapon. You could be charged criminally and have jail time and or have a civil suit filed against you... even the lawyer you need to defend yourself will drain all your finances and probably put you in debt for a while....


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## mograph (Tuesday at 6:05 AM)

(I'm not a lawyer, nor do I have law enforcement experience.)

I'd go to the local cop shop and ask them how to defend myself if confronted by an intruder in my home in my neighbourhood. They might have ideas applicable to your locality, and have ideas on how to secure your home.
But I wouldn't appear eager to use deadly force -- I'd probably want to appear vulnerable, not itching for a fight.


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## drop bear (Tuesday at 1:16 PM)

A baseball bat would have less clean up that a gun in a break in.

Regardless of the state you still have to justify killing someone. Which I assume is generally a painful process best avoided. And at 3 in the morning possibly not something you want to have to do. 

Otherwise I have one of those cold steel beat you to death walking sticks. And my theory is it can be a walking stick untill it isn't. Which gives it a bit of camouflage.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Tuesday at 2:21 PM)

drop bear said:


> A baseball bat would have less clean up that a gun in a break in.
> 
> Regardless of the state you still have to justify killing someone. Which I assume is generally a painful process best avoided. And at 3 in the morning possibly not something you want to have to do.
> 
> Otherwise I have one of those cold steel beat you to death walking sticks. And my theory is it can be a walking stick untill it isn't. Which gives it a bit of camouflage.


Actually, justification varies as well. California has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation. In California there is a legal presumption that someone forcibly entering an occupied home is there to commit rape, robbery, murder, or mayhem, all of which are legally justified reasons to use deadly force with no requirement to retreat. This means that the attorneys of the perpetrator must first overcome that legal presumption before any sort of criminal charge can be initiated against the defender. The rub is that none of that will prevent civil cases being filed. It doesn’t matter what kind of weapon was used, if any.


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## wab25 (Tuesday at 3:36 PM)

While this video is primarily about Stand Your Ground doctrine... it does a good job of covering the use of lethal force... and what the law is looking for.... Even Duty to Retreat is covered briefly and is not what most people think it is.


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## jks9199 (Tuesday at 5:23 PM)

Zombocalypse said:


> Is that a common thing on US states? Or is Texas a bit of an outlier when it comes to that?


Texas is a bit of an outlier -- but not exclusive.  In most states, you'll have a hard time justifying lethal force to defend property (outside of some exceptions like nuclear secrets).  Texas has a very broad statutory interpretation of the Castle Doctrine.  In brief, the Castle Doctrine lets a person assume that that someone breaking into their home -- their "castle" -- intends to do them serious harm, and may justify the use of lethal force without further retreat.  That's a really brief summary, and there is a lot of nuance state-to-state.   The Texas law can be found HERE.  For comparison, HERE is an article on Virginia's self-defense laws.

That said -- I don't know that I'd want to be on the civil suit defense for the use of lethal force over vandalism or even auto theft.  It may be permitted under the criminal law, but that doesn't mean you'll survive the civil suit...


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## Zombocalypse (Wednesday at 6:49 PM)

Thanks everyone.

I’m not eager for a fight. I just sleep better at night knowing I have the means to kill people if at 2 AM in the morning for some extremely unlikely reason, my peaceful neighborhood decides to have a violent nutcase break in to my room.

The weapon stays in my room. I maybe batshit crazy who’s diagnosed with everything but I don’t go picking fights.

The psychological state of bloodlust changes everything. It’s sad that I’m familiar with it. I have learned to get along with people throughout these years.


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