# Split and Sent to Wing Chun Forum: Discussion on Sil Lim Tao



## ed-swckf (Jun 11, 2005)

bart said:
			
		

> (Shil Lum Tao, Advanced Shil Lum Tao, Chum Kiu, and Bil Jee),


What makes Advanced shil lum tao different from shil lum tao?


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## bart (Jun 11, 2005)

In the Wing Chun that I learned, the two versions of Shil Lim Tao were still treated as the same form, however the Advanced Shil Lim Tao contained the addition of vertical palm strikes following all of the huen sao in the first section, two additional sections comprising about 8 strikes, and the addition of a stepping pattern to one of the existing sections. In the TWCKF that I learned, both forms were given weight, but the Advanced version was understood to be a variation of the Shil Lim Tao. 

I've seen the variation demonstrated at other schools as well. It was thought to be one of the things that proved the "difference" and "validity" of TWCKF as compared to the other branches of WC. My instructor never pushed that himself though. He maintained that there were only 3 forms with the first having a variation. I have no opinion except that it is a good variation that works on some valuable things.


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## ed-swckf (Jun 11, 2005)

bart said:
			
		

> In the Wing Chun that I learned, the two versions of Shil Lim Tao were still treated as the same form, however the Advanced Shil Lim Tao contained the addition of vertical palm strikes following all of the huen sao in the first section, two additional sections comprising about 8 strikes, and the addition of a stepping pattern to one of the existing sections. In the TWCKF that I learned, both forms were given weight, but the Advanced version was understood to be a variation of the Shil Lim Tao.
> 
> I've seen the variation demonstrated at other schools as well. It was thought to be one of the things that proved the "difference" and "validity" of TWCKF as compared to the other branches of WC. My instructor never pushed that himself though. He maintained that there were only 3 forms with the first having a variation. I have no opinion except that it is a good variation that works on some valuable things.


Thats bizzarre, i've never seen stepping in sui lim tao but i've seen variations in all forms but that sounds like quite a variation.


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## bcbernam777 (Jun 23, 2005)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> Thats bizzarre, i've never seen stepping in sui lim tao but i've seen variations in all forms but that sounds like quite a variation.


Yourright there is no movement in Sui Lum tao for a very good reason


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## ed-swckf (Jun 24, 2005)

bcbernam777 said:
			
		

> Yourright there is no movement in Sui Lum tao for a very good reason


Well thats what you'd think but people here are saying they learn it with movement!  Its definitely not traditional wing chun but i am curious to see this variation with its extra sections to see where it would fit in my typicical yip man wing chun.


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## brothershaw (Jun 24, 2005)

I would imagine they use the moving sil lum tao as bridge between stationary SLT and chum kui. Depending on how serious your school takes chum kui, and how serious you practice it , it might take a while to get it down.

I am saying this hypothetically since I  have never seen or done moving SLT although it is very easy to add footwork if you chose to.

I havent  read phils article yet bit in any MA there is a high degree of repition its just a question of is the repetition boring you or not?
If you like to kick and are flexible you may not mind endless kicking combos, but you might not like getting thrown to the floor for a half hour.


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## ed-swckf (Jun 24, 2005)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> I would imagine they use the moving sil lum tao as bridge between stationary SLT and chum kui. Depending on how serious your school takes chum kui, and how serious you practice it , it might take a while to get it down.
> 
> I am saying this hypothetically since I have never seen or done moving SLT although it is very easy to add footwork if you chose to.
> 
> ...


Its easy to add or take away anything, but how valid is it would be my question.  In my school chum kui is taken seriously and whilst training sui nim tao students will be continually practicing stepping and turning as it does take a while to get these skills down.  But is it legitimate to the form, do you gain anything new and is it something you wouldn't aquire through chum kui training - this is what springs to mind for me when i think hypothetically of this, if anyone finds any online videos or examples of movement in sui lim tao please post them as i am intrigued by this.  As it stands i wonder if its just adding for the sake of adding.


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## bart (Jun 24, 2005)

Hey There,

First off I want to remind everyone that I said that the "Advanced" Sil Lum Tao was a variation of the Sil Lum Tao. The lineage of that variation is through William Cheung aka Cheung Chuk-Hing who is a well known direct student of Yip Man. The Sil Lum Tao variation with the stepping is attributed to Yip Man by William Cheung. So if we are to believe our teachers, which I do, then it is definitely traditional wing chun. 

Many different teachers have different versions of what Yip Man taught. The stepping in the variation does make it different than the Sil Lum Tao. The "Advanced" is taught as a variation not as a replacement. IMHO it is a worthwhile study and has value. I don't believe that it was added just for addition's sake, but that there are things with in it that make a better fighter. 

I'm not a long time practitioner like some here. I began earnest study in 1992 and since then I've heard a lot of the versioning arguments between the various "Wing Chun/Tsun's". It doesn't really get anywhere and the only thing that really gets settled is that more people turn to MMA. 

I don't intend any disparage, but I've never heard of bcbernam777's teacher. However, I think most Wing Chun people have heard of William Cheung either good or bad. And most know that he trained directly with Yip Man including at one point living with him. So if we are to believe William Cheung, which I have no reason not to, then the stepping in the "Advanced" variation of the Sil Lum Tao is authentic and traditional Wing Chun.


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## brothershaw (Jun 25, 2005)

Its possible that yip man showed it to william chueng( sp) to help him get a particular point, not that he really meant it was something everyone needed to do. OFten teachers may tell somebody to "do this" just until they gt it so they can move on to the real thing they are supposed to do. 
Its also possible william cheung created for training purposes and chooses to credit it to yip man.
I dont know anything is possible and the above is not said to discredit or insult anyone.

I do know that when different people study with the same teacher at different times they can all get different versions of the same stuff because the teacher has 
1- grown in knowledge/ skill
2- gotten older and cant perform certain things
3- chooses to emphasize different things ( see #1)
4- alters his teaching style to fit the student/students abilities

think about that in regards to wing chun/ yip man
everyone CLAIMS they got the real deal , but the real deal according to WHO? 

Look at aikido alot of the first generation students who trained TOGETHER under ueshiba went off in different directions soon as he died, and some sooner

I tend to think of it as 5 deadly venoms syndrome,


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## ed-swckf (Jun 25, 2005)

bart said:
			
		

> Hey There,
> 
> First off I want to remind everyone that I said that the "Advanced" Sil Lum Tao was a variation of the Sil Lum Tao. The lineage of that variation is through William Cheung aka Cheung Chuk-Hing who is a well known direct student of Yip Man. The Sil Lum Tao variation with the stepping is attributed to Yip Man by William Cheung. So if we are to believe our teachers, which I do, then it is definitely traditional wing chun.
> 
> ...


What are the things that make people a better fighter?  I am genuinely interested, i want to know if they are things that can be found in other forms or if they are something completely different?  I have tried searching out this advanced form and noticed a fair ammount of william cheung schools don't include it in their sylabus and the ones that did give no detail of it.  

I hope you don't think i was saying william cheung's wing chun doesn't constitute traditional, i wasn't, its just stepping in sui nim tao or the teaching of the advanced form you speak of doesn't tie in with what most call traditional wing chun, i mean i don't know any other yip man students that taught it.  I'm not trying to start some kind of lineage issue either i am just interested to learn of the type of stepping and extra movements that is put into this form.  I mean if its something that appears in other systems in a different fashion, then thats cool but as i don't know what these techniques are they could be something completely new to me and i would like to learn about it.  So please don't feel i am belittling your style, i am just curious to the variation


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## KyleShort (Jun 28, 2005)

Not much to add here but I found that if you do a google on "advanced sil lum tao" you will find lots of information...

examples:

http://www.navybase.net/gtmaa/NAWCA/wing_chun_kung-fu.htm

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-3044.html

http://www.wingchunonline.com/Wing_Chun/index.html

tons more examples.  Perhaps the spelling of sil lum tao is relevant when doing a google search as different lineages will use different spellings...and different lineages are likely to practice slightly different material.


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## ed-swckf (Jun 28, 2005)

KyleShort said:
			
		

> Not much to add here but I found that if you do a google on "advanced sil lum tao" you will find lots of information...
> 
> examples:
> 
> ...


Thanksd i was spelling it the way the gentleman had spelt it and came up with not much.  Still very little information on the type of stepping etc.


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## bart (Jun 28, 2005)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> Thanksd i was spelling it the way the gentleman had spelt it and came up with not much.  Still very little information on the type of stepping etc.



Transliteration of Chinese words to English is always complicated by problems of consistency. My apologies about the spelling. Shil Lim Tao, Sil Lum Tao, Siu Nim Tau, there are lots of different ways to spell it. For now I'll use SLT. Any successful search online is going to have get a little "creative" in order to be successful. In the following description, please excuse any transliteration differences. 

The Advanced SLT differs in the fook sao section by the introduction of a vertical palm strike after the delivery of the fook saos. An additional section is added between the tan sao section and the ban sao section composed of pak sao-tan sao-jut sao-tan sao-huen sao-vertical palm. The stepping is introduced in the fut sao section with the insertion of a diagonal step toward the direction of each fut sao in turn and the circle steps used to bring one back to center. The last section of the form is also differed by the introduction of a large huen sao to bring the hand to eye level before the alternate palm is scraped along it's length. 

Again, this is taught as a variation and not as a replacement.


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## bcbernam777 (Jun 29, 2005)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> Well thats what you'd think but people here are saying they learn it with movement! Its definitely not traditional wing chun but i am curious to see this variation with its extra sections to see where it would fit in my typicical yip man wing chun.


The reason there is no movement in Sui Lum Tao is so that you can learn to develop your centre of gravity ie Balance and strengthen your Stance, if you introduce movemnent at this stage you can short circuit the work Sui Lum Tao works in you. Movement is more dynamically introduced in Chum Kiu. In my opinion, after studying with a former student of Yip Man's to move in SLT would be to misinterpret the purpose of the form.


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## bcbernam777 (Jun 29, 2005)

bart said:
			
		

> Hey There,
> 
> I don't intend any disparage, but I've never heard of bcbernam777's teacher. However, I think most Wing Chun people have heard of William Cheung either good or bad.QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## brothershaw (Jun 29, 2005)

Good point that marketing/ prominence does not necessarily correlate to skill or ability to teach.


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## bart (Jun 30, 2005)

bcbernam777,

I disagree that movement from the Sil Lum Tao done with movement detracts from skill development once a practitioner reaches a certain level. Given, that proper attention needs to be paid to the Sil Lum Tao in regular practice, the movements from that form are employed with stepping all throughout advanced practice. I think here we simply are going to continue to have a difference of opinion. I do respect yours though and can see the logic behind it. 

About fame, it is not the sole determinant of validity or authenticity. My reason in bringing it up was to show that the source of the variation, William Cheung, did in fact have a verified and well documented relationship with Yip Man, whom he lived and trained under. This was in answer to statements that stepping in the Sil Lum Tao variation was not a part of the Yip Man lineage. According to William Cheung it is. According to your statements echoing the teachings of your Sifu, it is not. We can disbelieve either equally, but we know for a fact that Yip Man tailored his teachings to the individual student. It's reasonable thus to believe that your teacher Dereck Fung and my Sifu's teacher, William Cheung, may have been taught differently.


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## bcbernam777 (Jul 1, 2005)

bart said:
			
		

> bcbernam777,
> 
> I disagree that movement from the Sil Lum Tao done with movement detracts from skill development once a practitioner reaches a certain level. Given, that proper attention needs to be paid to the Sil Lum Tao in regular practice, the movements from that form are employed with stepping all throughout advanced practice. I think here we simply are going to continue to have a difference of opinion. I do respect yours though and can see the logic behind it.
> 
> About fame, it is not the sole determinant of validity or authenticity. My reason in bringing it up was to show that the source of the variation, William Cheung, did in fact have a verified and well documented relationship with Yip Man, whom he lived and trained under. This was in answer to statements that stepping in the Sil Lum Tao variation was not a part of the Yip Man lineage. According to William Cheung it is. According to your statements echoing the teachings of your Sifu, it is not. We can disbelieve either equally, but we know for a fact that Yip Man tailored his teachings to the individual student. It's reasonable thus to believe that your teacher Dereck Fung and my Sifu's teacher, William Cheung, may have been taught differently.


That's cool, I respect your opinion, peace.


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## ed-swckf (Jul 5, 2005)

bart said:
			
		

> Transliteration of Chinese words to English is always complicated by problems of consistency. My apologies about the spelling. Shil Lim Tao, Sil Lum Tao, Siu Nim Tau, there are lots of different ways to spell it. For now I'll use SLT. Any successful search online is going to have get a little "creative" in order to be successful. In the following description, please excuse any transliteration differences.


 Oh i know that, but what i was after was the paticular information on the advanced form, like what you have included in your post so after searching the internet in a rather creative manner i was still coming up with nothing that satisfied the questions i had.



			
				bart said:
			
		

> The Advanced SLT differs in the fook sao section by the introduction of a vertical palm strike after the delivery of the fook saos. An additional section is added between the tan sao section and the ban sao section composed of pak sao-tan sao-jut sao-tan sao-huen sao-vertical palm. The stepping is introduced in the fut sao section with the insertion of a diagonal step toward the direction of each fut sao in turn and the circle steps used to bring one back to center. The last section of the form is also differed by the introduction of a large huen sao to bring the hand to eye level before the alternate palm is scraped along it's length.
> 
> Again, this is taught as a variation and not as a replacement.


 Thank you very much for taking the time to explain this form in a little more detail, it is greatly appreciated.


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## ed-swckf (Jul 5, 2005)

bcbernam777 said:
			
		

> The reason there is no movement in Sui Lum Tao is so that you can learn to develop your centre of gravity ie Balance and strengthen your Stance, if you introduce movemnent at this stage you can short circuit the work Sui Lum Tao works in you. Movement is more dynamically introduced in Chum Kiu. In my opinion, after studying with a former student of Yip Man's to move in SLT would be to misinterpret the purpose of the form.


 I know, thats where i stand on the issue and i know all the reasoning behind sui nim tao but the advanced form obviously exists and  has movement in.  I'm not qualifying it or showing it contempt just attempting to gain an understanding of the why's and what for's within its teaching.


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## bcbernam777 (Jul 6, 2005)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> I know, thats where i stand on the issue and i know all the reasoning behind sui nim tao but the advanced form obviously exists and has movement in. I'm not qualifying it or showing it contempt just attempting to gain an understanding of the why's and what for's within its teaching.


No prob, to be honest with you, before I looked at this thread I had little idea that there was such a thing.


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