# How old before you are a 10th degree black belt?



## MisterMike (Aug 20, 2004)

What's the earliest age you think someone should be a 10th dan?
Or at what age would you be skeptical of seeing someone with such a rank?
Does rank really mean anything anymore or do people just 1-up each other?
What kind of traits would you look for in a 10th dan?


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## Disco (Aug 21, 2004)

What's the earliest age you think someone should be a 10th dan?
At least 12.............. Mabey 11 if it's from a MacDojo   

Or at what age would you be skeptical of seeing someone with such a rank?
7 or 8......Don't care if it is a MacDojo, that's boarderline too young.  :uhyeah: 

Does rank really mean anything anymore or do people just 1-up each other?
Thought it was 7up....... :idunno: 

What kind of traits would you look for in a 10th dan?
Be able to tie their own belt and have their mommy drop them off at least 3 times a week.   

artyon:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Aug 21, 2004)

If you're young enough to ask, the answer is "No."


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## Han-Mi (Aug 21, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> What's the earliest age you think someone should be a 10th dan?
> Or at what age would you be skeptical of seeing someone with such a rank?
> Does rank really mean anything anymore or do people just 1-up each other?
> What kind of traits would you look for in a 10th dan?


60
under 60
I keep my 1-ups. I always get stuck on the castle level.
10 stripes, and the ability to say really cool MA things, like flying monkey biting tiger claw attack.

Seriously though, the people who deserve to be 10th dans, often would not want the title because they look down on it for one reason or another.


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## terryl965 (Aug 21, 2004)

To answer your question the miminum age is 60 yrs old. I myself have been the same rank for twenty years for rank has no meaning anymore to many water down self proclaim master of there own art. So many 7,8,9 Dan that it is not funny anymore, I've even seen 5th dan 7 years old my GOD they out rank me and I've beeen in the MA for 41 years. GOD BLESS AMERICA and all those self proclaim Master........!!!!!!!!!


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## TigerWoman (Aug 21, 2004)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> To answer your question the miminum age is 60 yrs old. I myself have been the same rank for twenty years for rank has no meaning anymore to many water down self proclaim master of there own art. So many 7,8,9 Dan that it is not funny anymore, I've even seen 5th dan 7 years old my GOD they out rank me and I've beeen in the MA for 41 years. GOD BLESS AMERICA and all those self proclaim Master........!!!!!!!!!



He must of been the son of the 7,8,9th Dan.  What do you do when you have to judge a tournament with a 7 yr. old 5th dan sitting next to you? Or when they introduce you to the audience and he comes before you or even after you.  I would think it makes "rank" pretty worthless.  I've gotten to that stage too.  TW


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## Firona (Aug 21, 2004)

Personally I think rank is just a way of someone trying to define where respect should be placed. Because MAs are generally strictly based on respect for teacher and a definition between students and instructors we have to have some way of building a hierarchy. When it comes down to it I don't think the 10th dan is necessary, because every person is different you can't say that each 10th dan is at the same skill level esspecially when crossing schools.


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## Ceicei (Aug 21, 2004)

Isn't 10th dan reserved for founders or for those who have spent a L-O-N-G lifetime doing their styles?

- Ceicei


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## MisterMike (Aug 21, 2004)

Well, since the Dan grading system came out of Judo we'd probably have to go back about 90 years to find out what the levels meant to that system and how many 10th Dans there were walking around in the early 20th century.

Evidently, this system of ranking took quite a hold on other styles as well and once it came to the U.S. Dan grade competition pretty much spread like wildfire.

"Why are you studying with so-and-so 4th Dan when so-and-so 5th Dan is up the street?"

I've read Aikido systems will not give out rank over 8th Dan to anyone living. Kinda makes you wonder about the levels of respect people have from "I'm my own 10th dan" to "I don't ever want a 10th Dan."

Generally, ranks of 6th dan and up are given for time and contributions to the art. So 10th dan to me would at least have a time requirement on it no matter what system. I just wonder about the 10th dans running around in their late 30's early 40's.


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## Mark Weiser (Aug 21, 2004)

IF I remember correctly 10th Dan is an honorary title given to those that either founded a system or have at least 30 years or more in the Martial Arts in a paticular system. 10th Dan is usually given by a group of peers aka Black Belts for reconginition of acheivements within your system of MA. Or at the order of the Founder of a system in order to perserve the purity of the Art names a successor upon his or her death will be given the rank of 10th Dan. 

I think honestly there should only be a single 10th Dan in any system meaning the head of that Art the final decision maker and the embodiment of that Art. You can have all the 9th Dans you want but only one 10th Dan the Living Senior Grand Master.


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## auxprix (Aug 21, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> Well, since the Dan grading system came out of Judo we'd probably have to go back about 90 years to find out what the levels meant to that system and how many 10th Dans there were walking around in the early 20th century.
> 
> Evidently, this system of ranking took quite a hold on other styles as well and once it came to the U.S. Dan grade competition pretty much spread like wildfire.
> 
> ...



There have been very very few 10th dans in Judo. And there will never be another 10th dan, because only Kano can award them. And he's, well...long dead.


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## DeLamar.J (Aug 22, 2004)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> To answer your question the miminum age is 60 yrs old. I myself have been the same rank for twenty years for rank has no meaning anymore to many water down self proclaim master of there own art. So many 7,8,9 Dan that it is not funny anymore, I've even seen 5th dan 7 years old my GOD they out rank me and I've beeen in the MA for 41 years. GOD BLESS AMERICA and all those self proclaim Master........!!!!!!!!!


I dont belive a person under the age of 18 should be allowed to hold the rank of 1st dan black belt until there 18th birthday IMO.


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## AaronLucia (Aug 22, 2004)

Everything is circumstancial...


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## Andrew Green (Aug 22, 2004)

I believe 70 is the age requirement in many forms of traditional Japanese arts.

Personally I'd say be skeptical of ANYONE claiming that rank.


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## bignick (Aug 22, 2004)

auxprix was correct on that...10th dan's in judo are reserved for kano and his original students...of which very few are left alive today...one of the only ones i know Sensei Keiko Fukuda...


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## John Bishop (Aug 23, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> auxprix was correct on that...10th dan's in judo are reserved for kano and his original students...of which very few are left alive today...one of the only ones i know Sensei Keiko Fukuda...


I have been told in the past that Kodokan Judo ranks go up to 12th dan.  Is this incorrect?


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## SMP (Aug 23, 2004)

After looking around a bit I was unable to find any acknowledgements of a 12 dan.



I did find this answer to a question on ranking at the International Judo Federations web page.



http://www.ijf.org/info/faq.php

Again, each judo club and National Federation has a different system of assigning judo ranks. Achievement in Judo is recognized by awarding different color belts. The six student ranks are called kyu. The ten black belt, or expert, ranks are called dan. Juniors under 17 years old earn different color belts than seniors. ( I did the underlining for the sake of our conversation.)





Another good source of info can be found at http://judoinfo.com/obi.htm


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## Mark Weiser (Aug 23, 2004)

*Promotion to 9th Degree Black Belt: (HANSHI-GO)*

Is eligible to be promoted after devoting 40 years to the practice and
teaching of Isshin Ryu Karate


_I did some research and here is some interesting facts. Assume you started training at age 10._

THE AMERICAN FEDERATION OF JUJITSU 
1st Degree Black Belt is 3 years of training. A basic time guide for further advancement is as follows:

2nd Degree after 2 years as a 1st Degree Black Belt
3rd Degree after 3 years as a 2nd Degree Black Belt
4th Degree after 4 years as a 3rd Degree Black Belt 
5th Degree after 5 years as a 4th Degree Black Belt
6th Degree after 6 years as a 5th Degree Black Belt
7th Degree after 7 years as a 6th Degree Black Belt
8th Degree after 8 years as a 7th Degree Black Belt
9th Degree after 9 years as a 8th Degree Black Belt
10th Degree after 10 years as a 9th Degree Black Belt

Total Time = 59 years


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## auxprix (Aug 23, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> I have been told in the past that Kodokan Judo ranks go up to 12th dan. Is this incorrect?


the only 12thy dan I've ever heard of was Kano, who was promoted to that rank posthumanously. I may have been wrong in my post. It could be the 11th dan that I was thinking of. I'll look it up.


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## MichiganTKD (Aug 23, 2004)

In WTF Tae Kwon Do, I believe you must be at least 60 years old to be considered for 9th Dan (there is no 10th Dan). This is after significant promotion of Tae Kwon Do on the worldwide level. The only exception I ever knew was our Grandmaster, who was allowed to test 9th Dan in Korea before reaching 60 due to his acknowledged contribution to World Tae Kwon Do. Lest anyone question, the certificates he was issued were made of marble and issued from the Kukkiwon. I held them myself.

I would beware of anyone who lists their own rank as 9th or 10th Dan, especially if it is through an organization they founded. Sounds absurd, but it happens.
Double beware: any Tae Kwon Do Instructor who lists their rank as 10th Dan. Tae Kwon Do does not issue 10th Dan ranks.


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## bignick (Aug 23, 2004)

i thought 10th dan was awarded as an honary title in tkd...not something you could earn...but could be bestowed upon you

the wtf website lists the number of each dan's in korea and overseas

and they list 5 10th dans in korea
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/promotion/yudanja.asp?div=5


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## terryl965 (Aug 24, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> i thought 10th dan was awarded as an honary title in tkd...not something you could earn...but could be bestowed upon you
> 
> the wtf website lists the number of each dan's in korea and overseas
> 
> ...


 
That is true to a point they list only 5 but in actuallity there are houndreds from the US alone. See here in the good old Art of TKD you can buy that rank for alot of money and never get it register through the Kukkiwon, people will buy anything these days for the right price, that is why TKD is so water down everywhere. Not saying that is the case everwhere but for my own experiences it can be done with little or no problem. I have had people tell me they could promote me to Grand Master for $10,000.00 dollars and I've refuse for the rank has no meaning for me anymore. I train for the love of the Art not for the pubilicies some people need in life.. REMEMBER MY OPION ONLY. so please do not bash me about what I've said... GOD BLESS AMERICA


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Aug 24, 2004)

Interesting question esp since there are a lot of people out there under 40 who are 10th deg. If we looked at it in 3 years gap between degrees and a person started at 10. We would get 40 years old. If they started at 20 they would be 50 years old. 
I guess a person can wear any rank they want but what will really determine if the stripes are real is when push comes to shove and they have to show what they know.
I am one of those people who is a white belt with many shades of gray.
I picked up that great saying from the Doc.

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian:


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## Brother John (Aug 24, 2004)

I think that too much attention is given to rank.

I say let people wear what they want, I'll judge them in my own mind...
white belt w/one stripe
or
Black Belt w/ten

Your Brother
John


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## DeLamar.J (Aug 24, 2004)

Every system is different when promoting someone to 10th dan. My master is a 10th dan and holds high ranks in many othe styles. He is a 7th deg in judo, 4th in aikido, 9th in ju jitsu, and a few others I belive. Im not sure how old he is but he has been in the arts for all his life, so I think that qualifies him to hold a 10th dan. By the way here is his credentials http://www.usjujitsu.net/bio/mcclanahan/, his ranks are all certified by well know organizations, so they are valid. Alot of people try to tell me I train at a mc dojo when I tell them about the ranks my master holds. I guess there are so many wanna be fakes out there that people just assume the worst.


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## GAB (Aug 24, 2004)

Hello Brother John,

I have to agree with you, I have always believed it and still support the very idea. But when in the various schools it is nice to be able to give some one a feeling of getting something for their money.

I feel people are not as secure in the assessment of this as you and I are, it comes with age. Or a not give a care attitiude. 
To many Mc Dojos and not enough investigation into the art that some want to get into, nor for the right reasons. 
One of the best places to get a fast education is the local Gym (boxing) lots of information in those smelly little out of the way spots.

Regards, Gary


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## Shurikan (Aug 24, 2004)

Ranks should only be considered with in its own organization. As in ours you must be 18 to recieve a Sho-Dan(1st degree black belt) and we have strict requirements all the way thru our Dan ranks. I would never compare a 4th Dan to a 4th Dan in another system as we require a different curiculum then any other orgnaization. As for 10th Dan in our system that rank is held for the leader of our system and until he dies there will not be another one, regardless of age, time in the system, or any other instances.


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## Brother John (Aug 25, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Hello Brother John,
> I have to agree with you, I have always believed it and still support the very idea. But when in the various schools it is nice to be able to give some one a feeling of getting something for their money.
> I feel people are not as secure in the assessment of this as you and I are, it comes with age. Or a not give a care attitiude.
> To many Mc Dojos and not enough investigation into the art that some want to get into, nor for the right reasons.
> ...


Hey Gary, What's up??
Please understand, I feel that rank plays an important roll in the martial arts... but NOT the central one that most people make it play. In my school...I'm VERY strict about what a person of a certain rank must know/be able to do/and understand. In my association I'm proud of their standards.
Outside of these two venue...I'll judge by what I see. Character first, ability and understanding second. The belt color should give you a decent guess at these...but I hate 'guessing'. 

I especially liked what you last sentence there had to say!! I've always thought that I should judge a person as a martial artist not by belt, nor by trophy   ...but by how long, how frequently and how dilegently they pour their sweat onto the gym floor.
If I can't lift your DNA from your dojo floor....yer a "McDojo".
Or you've got some GREAT antiseptic cleaner that you use religiously. ((in which case...hook a brother up))
Your Brother
John


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## gyaku-zuki queen (Aug 25, 2004)

i cant see anyone getting their 10th dan before they are at least 60 years old. 5th dan untill they are at least 30-40 and have been training their whole life.


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## bignick (Aug 25, 2004)

my friend and i often joke about how we're gonna start our own art...and declare ourselves to be 38th degree black belts...we'll wear black belts...and obviously, people need to know about us...so we have to wear our degree stripes on our belts...like an inch of black and then just an insane number of stripes...that should be impressive enough


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## willjones282000 (Nov 5, 2013)

I met gentle man who is 32 years old and he is a 10th Dan. But also he has his own style I'm guessing if your creating your own art that makes you automatic 10th Dan


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 5, 2013)

As has been said many times here before, rank only has meaning within the system/school that it applies to.  In Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu there are no living 10th degree black belts.  In Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu there are a zillion of them (and 10th dan isn't even the highest rank.)  Does that mean that BJJ is better than BBT or vice-versa?  No, it just means that the rank means something very different in the two arts.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 5, 2013)

willjones282000 said:


> I met gentle man who is 32 years old and he is a 10th Dan. But also he has his own style I'm guessing if your creating your own art that makes you automatic 10th Dan



Not quite.  If you create your own style, you get to decide what rules apply to rank.  You could decree that as the founder you are a 537th dan or you could decree that you are a white belt.  It's up to you.


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 5, 2013)

If you are the first to call your self a 10th Dan then you most certainly are not one.  If other in the arts call you a tenth dan then they consider that you are one.  if others are using that term for your rank and you are asked I would think it ok to say you are that rank or maybe just to say you are the head instructor for the system.
I think 60 would be a starting point for a person to be called a 10th dan.


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## Mauthos (Nov 6, 2013)

This is quite interesting to me as I currently only hold a 2nd degree in Kenpo and I will hopefully be going for my third next year, I will be 37 then and will have spent 12 years studying and teaching this style.  I avoided my 2nd degree for a long time (spent 6 years as a 1st degree) and have never really thought much about obtaining my next rank.

I know in my organisation it is laid out that it will take a minimum of 25 years to reach 6th degree as we grade for each of those and then 7 - 10th are awarded when you are deemed ready for them.  At that rate I know that it is very unlikely that I will ever become a 10th degree and quite honestly it doesn't concern me.

On the subject of age though, my instructor has been told he should be awarded his 9th degree in 2015 which will make him 65 and the two seniors in our art, one of them recieved their 10th degree at 63 and the other will recieve his next year at 61.  Seems about right.

Like I said though if I keep going the way I am going I will be 52 before I can grade for my 6th degree, so the likelyhood of receiving another 4 grades by the time I am 60 is incredibly minimal lol.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 6, 2013)

tshadowchaser said:


> If you are the first to call your self a 10th Dan then you most certainly are not one.


Your statement assumes uniformity between arts regarding what a 'dan' is.  But while my sympathies lie with your sentiment, intellecutally, I cannot agree with this.  

If a person creates their own system, determines the ranking system, and is the highest ranking person in the system, then they have every right to call themselves by that rank.  Just as anyone who owns a business can call themselves the owner, CEO, or president and actually _*be*_ the owner, CEO, or president.  

If you develop your own system and get ranking through an organization, such as the World Blackbelt Bureau, people call you a fraud.  If you develop your own system and are awarded your rank by your students, people call you a fraud.  If you develop your own system and award yourself your rank, people a fraud.  If you get people in other arts to award you your rank, people call you a fraud.

So no matter what you do, people call you a fraud.  So long as you don't make a big point of going around questioning everyone else's legitimacy, I don't really care how you get your grade.  Your system and your ability will be readily apparent, and you and your system will either fade away inside of a century or you will establish a lasting legacy.  History will judge you, but I have better things to do in the mean time.


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## Hyoho (Nov 6, 2013)

Who actually grades a Judan, his juniors?


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## Hyoho (Nov 6, 2013)

willjones282000 said:


> I met gentle man who is 32 years old and he is a 10th Dan. But also he has his own style I'm guessing if your creating your own art that makes you automatic 10th Dan



Any idiot can create their own and call themselves whatever they like, but will have little credibility. 

The  yudansha system it relatively new applying to the more moden arts. In a lifetimes practice a simple licence was more than sufficient. 

After near 50 years study and teaching I had around 27 certificates, the majority taken in Japan by the time I was 42. It's just 'pieces of paper'. The chairman of the Kendo association encouraged me to try for more saying, "Your students will be very proud". But its the heart and spirit taught us by our teachers that counts the most.

Yagyu handed a Yagyuryu certificate to the Lord Hosokawa. Its contained all the teachings of the Ryu on paper......It was blank!


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## Balrog (Nov 12, 2013)

Mark Weiser said:


> IF I remember correctly 10th Dan is an honorary title given to those that either founded a system or have at least 30 years or more in the Martial Arts in a paticular system. 10th Dan is usually given by a group of peers aka Black Belts for reconginition of acheivements within your system of MA. Or at the order of the Founder of a system in order to perserve the purity of the Art names a successor upon his or her death will be given the rank of 10th Dan.
> 
> I think honestly there should only be a single 10th Dan in any system meaning the head of that Art the final decision maker and the embodiment of that Art. You can have all the 9th Dans you want but only one 10th Dan the Living Senior Grand Master.



ATA kinda did that.  GM H. U. Lee, the founder of the organization, was posthumously promoted to 10th Degree and given the title of Eternal Grandmaster.  ATA will never award another 10th Degree.  We currently have two living 9th Degrees: our current Grandmaster and the Grandmaster Emeritus, who retired a couple of years ago.  He's still active in the ATA, but he's not the captain of the ship any more, so to speak.


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## chinto (Nov 14, 2013)

in Okinawan Karate, and many other arts, there is one hanchi judan ( 10th degree/dan)  perhaps 2 or so 9th dan, and all others are UNDER that level of rank.


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## Tripitaka of AA (Nov 16, 2013)

This chap, is a reason why people wonder about the 10th dan thing. If anyone is interested in learning from a Grandmaster, Professor, Doctor, Soke Master Instructor... he has a dojo in his garage filled with certificates and memberships of every known association and paper mill. At the time of the article, he was 42.. with half a dozen 10th dans, more 9th dans, some 8th dans, a clutch of 7th dans.. and a partridge in a pear tree.


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## Kong Soo Do (Nov 16, 2013)

Tripitaka of AA said:


> This chap, is a reason why people wonder about the 10th dan thing. If anyone is interested in learning from a Grandmaster, Professor, Doctor, Soke Master Instructor... he has a dojo in his garage filled with certificates and memberships of every known association and paper mill. At the time of the article, he was 42.. with half a dozen 10th dans, more 9th dans, some 8th dans, a clutch of 7th dans.. and a partridge in a pear tree.




I recently had this individual solicit membership in the IKSDA.  The individual sent me his bio and ranks via email and persisted for about a month.  He had over a half-dozen rankings in various arts, including a couple of 10th Dans.  Now to me, this always sends up a red flag.  I don't mind someone creating an art and taking the 10th Dan position....IF...they have the training and experience to back it up.  There has been a lot of martial historical precedence to support this practice.

 But claiming TWO 10th Dans in made-up arts?  Why?  Aren't you happy with one 10th Dan?  Additionally the other rankings were medium to high.  Now for full disclosure, I had no intentions of allowing this individual into the IKSDA.  The whole thing screamed 'wall candy collector'.  And several times I tried to turn him away nicely.  Telling him that the IKSDA was KSD-only and of his plethora of ranks, only one was Korean (a supposed 5th Dan in Hapkido).  Yet he persisted.  So okay, here's the deal;


The IKSDA only goes up to 9th Dan and only has one GM.
You would be placed in the IKSDA at an equal rank to one you have *earned* and must demonstrate training from white belt to whatever high rank your claiming.  In otherwords, I'm not interested in any rank you claim unless you can offer me documentation that you've actually trained with a person who then promoted you in a progressive fashion.   Good ole boy promotions, and promotions awarded simply because you joined a dubious organization or self-promoted don't cut it.
And of course adhere to all the other requirements i.e. send in video of what you teach, apply for membership, get voted on etc.


 Surprise, surprise...he changed his tune and no longer wished to join.  What a shock!   I suspect that the plethora of ranks were either made up or doled out from suspect sources.  

 I used it as a source of entertainment value, but really it was a waste of time.  I wonder if these people really think they're impressing people with six, eight or a dozen high Dan rankings in their bio?  Don't they realize it makes them look like crap to serious martial artists?  

 Show me a progressive training schedule from white belt up to your claimed rank(s) and I'll be impressed.  If you can't...go solicit membership in the millions of other organization who take your money with no questions asked.  The IKSDA isn't for you.


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## Kong Soo Do (Nov 16, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Your statement assumes uniformity between arts regarding what a 'dan' is.  But while my sympathies lie with your sentiment, intellecutally, I cannot agree with this.
> 
> If a person creates their own system, determines the ranking system, and is the highest ranking person in the system, then they have every right to call themselves by that rank.  Just as anyone who owns a business can call themselves the owner, CEO, or president and actually _*be*_ the owner, CEO, or president.
> 
> ...



+1

Bottom line is the ability to walk the walk.


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## CK1980 (Nov 16, 2013)

I like how this thread mentions people starting their own art form and declaring themselves the master of that art...

I would be wary of anyone who gives themselves an inflated ranking to make them seem better than they really are though.

If I were to ever start teaching my "personal style" to others, I would probably shy away from using any type of formal ranking.  For that reason, my teaching will probably be limited to teaching my son and (if I am able) his children one day.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 16, 2013)

Tripitaka of AA said:


> This chap, is a reason why people wonder about the 10th dan thing.


I don't wonder about the tenth dan thing.  I don't really care.


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## donald1 (Nov 17, 2013)

Usually when they actually earn a tenth degree no mcdojo but truly earn it usually the ages are very old.  I have heard when someone dies they get promoted one last time (that could possibly have no relevance to the question)  but it does give sort of a picture to see how old 

My knowledge isn't the sharpest,  still learning,  I'm going to ask my instructor this question he is a seventh degree or 8th (i forget that too)


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## Hanzou (Nov 17, 2013)

I'm pretty sure that you can't reach 10th degree BB in my art (Bjj) unless you're one of Helio Gracie's older kids. However, in Bjj, you can't obtain a blue belt until you're 16, and you can't obtain a black belt until you're 18. I think any art that allows their students to go up to 10th Dan and beyond is suspect. Arts like Judo reserve 10th dan for Jigoro Kano for example.


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## TimoS (Nov 17, 2013)

Hanzou said:


> I think any art that allows their students to go up to 10th Dan and beyond is suspect. Arts like Judo reserve 10th dan for Jigoro Kano for example.



So judo is suspect? After all, there are 10th dans in judo http://judoinfo.com/judan.htm


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## donald1 (Nov 17, 2013)

That does make you think but isn't impossible.  Once you reach a certain age and rank when you get promoted you're skills are looked at but mainly stuff like how well you teach and things like that.


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## Hanzou (Nov 17, 2013)

TimoS said:


> So judo is suspect? After all, there are 10th dans in judo http://judoinfo.com/judan.htm



No, because Judo is well established and there's only a handful of living 10th dans in Judo in the world. Its pretty easy to find out who they are via their federation. 

Now if someone creates a style called "Combat Judo" and proclaims themselves 10th dan, you know you have a fraud on your hands.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 18, 2013)

Hanzou said:


> Now if someone creates a style called "Combat Judo" and proclaims themselves 10th dan, you know you have a fraud on your hands.


On what basis are they a fraud?  I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you; but what makes them a fraud?  What makes their art fraudulent?  As opposed to being overinflated?

Declaring one's self tenth dan in their own system without forging promotions, inventing false histories, or anything of that nature isn't fraudulent.  The rank might be optimistic, delusional, or egotistical, but is it really fraudulent?  

One of the problems that the inventor of a new system (regardless of said system's merit) faces is promotion.  In short, if you're the top, who is going to promote you?  If you apply the highest grade in the system to yourself, you neatly sidestep the problem.

So the only questions remaining are:


What is the merit of the system?  (does it do what it says it does?  Does it make unrealistic claims?  etc., etc.)
Are the business practices of those who promulgate the system ethical?
What is the teaching pedagogy?

So, if the art does what it says it does and the claims made are realistic, if the organization maintains ethical business practices, and if the teaching pedagogy is effective, then does arbitrary merit badge worn by the system founder really matter than much?  Does it somehow make him/her a fraud?

Note: I'm neither upholding nor deriding the practice.  But being a self appointed judan is not itself fraudulent.  Problematic, perhaps, but not automatically fraudulent.


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## chinto (Nov 18, 2013)

in Okinawan karate at least if he is not old, and not Okinawan, he is a fraud if he claims Judan rank.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 18, 2013)

chinto said:


> in Okinawan karate at least if he is not old, and not Okinawan, he is a fraud if he claims Judan rank.


Sure, but my question was to Hanzou's comment saying, "if someone creates a style called "Combat Judo" and proclaims themselves 10th dan, you know you have a fraud on your hands."

Now you're dealing with a new system with its own organization.

Just to be clear, I don't stump for the idea that creating your own system or being unaffiliated means that it's a good idea to declare yourself judan.  Personally, I think it's a bad idea.  I just won't go so far as to automatically call them a fraud in this particular scenario (maybe they are, but I would need more information).


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## Mauthos (Nov 19, 2013)

Just for information one of the guys in our Kenpo organisation was awarded his 10th dan this weekend in Dublin from Larry Tatum and I believe he is either 59 or 60.  Definitely a good Kenpoist and probably deserving of the rank as I know he has done a lot to push the art in Ireland and the UK.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 19, 2013)

Hanzou said:


> No, because Judo is well established and there's only a handful of living 10th dans in Judo in the world. Its pretty easy to find out who they are via their federation.
> 
> Now if someone creates a style called "Combat Judo" and proclaims themselves 10th dan, you know you have a fraud on your hands.



Not true. It's pretty silly to claim that if a senior judoka branched off and formed "Combat Judo" that their training, knowledge and experience would be magically invalidated just because they named themselves head of their new system.


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## oftheherd1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Your statement assumes uniformity between arts regarding what a 'dan' is.  But while my sympathies lie with your sentiment, intellecutally, I cannot agree with this.
> 
> If a person creates their own system, determines the ranking system, and is the highest ranking person in the system, then they have every right to call themselves by that rank.  Just as anyone who owns a business can call themselves the owner, CEO, or president and actually _*be*_ the owner, CEO, or president.
> 
> ...



I had never heard of the World Blackbelt Bureau, so I googled it.  Wow, maybe I can become a 10th Dan after all!  (And I wouldn't mind being one from there so long as I never had to admit where and how I came by it to anyone above white belt.)  I was a little surprised and disappointed to note that Ameri-do-te was not an art I could get my 10th dan in.  Secretly, in the hidden chambers of my heart, I have always wanted that.:rofl:

At some point I guess one just has to stop being amazed at the chicanery loose in the martial arts world.


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## oftheherd1 (Nov 19, 2013)

In the Hapkido I studied, 8th dan was the highest.  At one point they decided to go to 10th dan, but as I understand, they eventually backed off from that.  I know my Grand Master, an 8th Dan, decided not to go through with getting promoted.  He seemed to feel he wasn't going to learn any more, and it was just going to be a big paperwork drill.

FWIW, when I studied TKD under Jhoon Rhee, he was a 6th Dan, and in TKD, 8th dan was the highest.  Only the Japanese styles were known to have 10th dan, and it was understood that it was mostly an honorary title/rank.

Times change.


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## Aiki Lee (Nov 22, 2013)

Ranking is meaningless outside of the organization one is ranked in. In my art for example anyone can achieve 10th dan, but they have to complete the entire curriculum which could take many, many years. It doesn't mean one is done with the training, it just means one has learned everything in the system.


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