# Defence with a knife: To show, or not to show...



## Christian Soldier (Jul 6, 2012)

So you guys have established on here a couple times that a knife is a viable self defence weapon in an emergency. I agree.

So, let's say you can see the attacker coming, you have some distance, you can't run away, and you have some kind of knife (folder, box cutter, large fixed blade, etc.) with you.

Do you show it or hide it?

On one hand, showing the knife could make you look less like a victim and the attacker will just run away (Ideal).

On the other hand, brandishing a blade could prod a fight into action.

On yet another hand, the attack could turn vicious and keeping it in your pocket may prevent you from easy access and defence. 

I think there's a lot of misconceptions about this and I know a lot of the Reverse grip advocates say that concealing the blade behind you arm is an advantage, I'm not so sure.

Anyway, what are your thoughts?


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## Cyriacus (Jul 6, 2012)

The Law will only care so much about how You hold Your knife. How much damage You do in relation to His attack will matter more.

That said, hiding it makes it harder to use efficiently.


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## MJS (Jul 6, 2012)

Christian Soldier said:


> So you guys have established on here a couple times that a knife is a viable self defence weapon in an emergency. I agree.
> 
> So, let's say you can see the attacker coming, you have some distance, you can't run away, and you have some kind of knife (folder, box cutter, large fixed blade, etc.) with you.
> 
> ...



I would strongly suggest that the situation fits, before you use a knife for SD.  Simply pulling it out for the sake of intimidation, could land you in jail.


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## Instructor (Jul 6, 2012)

Simply holding a knife isn't exactly the same as brandishing it to intimidate.


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## MJS (Jul 6, 2012)

Instructor said:


> Simply holding a knife isn't exactly the same as brandishing it to intimidate.



My sister works at a small store, with a handful of employees.  Guy walks in, who she, as well as other employees, have had issues with.  My sister was on a register.  She is also one of the asst. mgrs. at this place.  Sees this guy come in, and rather than deal with his usual ****, has another kid come over, open a register, and take this guy, as well as others, who're standing in line, because it happened to be busy at that moment.  Guy sees this and starts to mutter something, basically pulling the race card BS.  My sister tried to explain that had nothing to do with it, mainly because he's cashed him out in the past.  

Guy starts being a bigger ******* than he normally is, and puts on his macho suit, and starts walking towards my sister.  Kid who was ringing the register gets in between them.  He reaches into his pocket and pulls out a small pocketknife, simply holding it.  Guy now turns into the ***** that he really is, and calls the cops.  Long story short:  Mr. Macho gets arrested for the disturbance as well as outstanding warrants.  Kid who went to the defense of my sister got arrested for simply taking the knife out.  Oh yeah, and the Dist. Mgr. of the store fired the kid too.  

Crazy?  Sure.  After all, the kid was simply holding it.  This guy most likely made it out to be bigger than it really was, however, in the end, it was the cops decision.


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## frank raud (Jul 6, 2012)

Christian Soldier said:


> So you guys have established on here a couple times that a knife is a viable self defence weapon in an emergency. I agree.
> 
> So, let's say you can see the attacker coming, you have some distance, you can't run away, and you have some kind of knife (folder, box cutter, large fixed blade, etc.) with you.
> 
> ...



_*brandishing a blade could prod a fight into action*_.  If there is no fight,why are you brandishing a blade? Hard to justify using lethal force if there is no cause. Do you think an attacker will see a knife and think"OK it's on!"

The advantage of concealing your knife behind your arm(or leg) is that it remains a surprise to your attacker, it doesn't appear threatening to a bystander(He had a knife! And he was waving it in the other guy's face!) and it is readily accessible if bad things go down. It doesn't need to be in reverse grip to conceal it.


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## rickster (Jul 6, 2012)

A knife is like a gun (sort of)

You dont brandish it.

You use it only when you really need it


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## Supra Vijai (Jul 6, 2012)

frank raud said:


> _*brandishing a blade could prod a fight into action*_.  If there is no fight,why are you brandishing a blade? Hard to justify using lethal force if there is no cause. Do you think an attacker will see a knife and think"OK it's on!"
> 
> The advantage of concealing your knife behind your arm(or leg) is that it remains a surprise to your attacker, it doesn't appear threatening to a bystander(He had a knife! And he was waving it in the other guy's face!) and it is readily accessible if bad things go down. It doesn't need to be in reverse grip to conceal it.



What he said. 

Grabbing a knife as an equalizer? Fine. Pulling a knife out when there is no fight means you lose all ability to use self defense as a plea when the actual fight is over. 

I'd highly recommend getting a copy of Facing Violence by Lt. Rory Miller and reading over it a few times. I've had the pleasure of doing just that recently and it's been a total eye opener from both sides of the legal fence so to speak as well as exploring the psychology of violence and it's aftermath. As with all my posts on weapons and related matters though, I'm going to reiterate the best thing you can do is to study and understand your local laws concerning these matters because at the end of the day it's not worth scaring off a potential threat with a knife only to end up imprisoned because you didn't exercise your duty of retreat or for unlawful possession.


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## Christian Soldier (Jul 6, 2012)

I haven't been in such a situation but I've read the story of a guy on the CS forum (unfortunately I can't remember where) where he and his wife were walking out of a theater when a group of older teenage guys were looking for a fight and started to surround them, he pulled out a knife, convinceing them they really didn't want a fight and the belligerents ran away. In this scenerio, if he had kept the knife hidden and only used it when they attacked, he might have seriously injured or killed one of the guys. 

From your post, I've learned that it's largely situationally dependant. If you guys have any wisdom or insight on what situations you would do what, that would be helpfull. Thanks!


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## Supra Vijai (Jul 6, 2012)

Christian Soldier said:


> I haven't been in such a situation but I've read the story of a guy on the CS forum (unfortunately I can't remember where) where he and his wife were walking out of a theater when a group of older teenage guys were looking for a fight and started to surround them, he pulled out a knife, convinceing them they really didn't want a fight and the belligerents ran away. In this scenerio, if he had kept the knife hidden and only used it when they attacked, he might have seriously injured or killed one of the guys.
> 
> From your post, I've learned that it's largely situationally dependant. If you guys have any wisdom or insight on what situations you would do what, that would be helpfull. Thanks!



I take it this was in response to the post by MJS?

My personal self defense strategies are as follow: stay away from areas known for trouble, keep my wits about me and remain alert when out even if that means not drinking as much as my friends (and especially if they've been drinking), not look like an easy target, practice verbal de-escalation and pre-emptive striking as much as I can should I ever need it, take charge of any group I'm in and leaving any situation where things seem iffy and making sure everyone I'm with gets out as well no matter how unpopular that makes me at the time and being sure to know my rights and local laws.

Knock on wood, I've never been in a confrontation involving weapons so honestly I don't know what I'd do in that situation. Hopefully some training would kick in even if it was just getting things in the way as a barrier and getting the hell out of there. My ego isn't worth as much as my life


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## frank raud (Jul 6, 2012)

Christian Soldier said:


> I haven't been in such a situation but I've read the story of a guy on the CS forum (unfortunately I can't remember where) where he and his wife were walking out of a theater when a group of older teenage guys were looking for a fight and started to surround them, he pulled out a knife, convinceing them they really didn't want a fight and the belligerents ran away. In this scenerio, if he had kept the knife hidden and only used it when they attacked, he might have seriously injured or killed one of the guys.
> 
> From your post, I've learned that it's largely situationally dependant. If you guys have any wisdom or insight on what situations you would do what, that would be helpfull. Thanks!



Hopefully you can see a difference between drawing a weapon AFTER being threatened and surrounded by a group of thugs, and brandishing a weapon prior to an engagement.


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## Elite09g8 (Jul 6, 2012)

I showed it! my Sog trident tanto (folding knife) and a kubaton! 


i was headed to my car late at night by myself in Dec. 2011, when 1 man got out of a car and threatend to beat the 'crap' out of me... For what? I didnt bother even asking, i just dropped the grocerys in my one hand. The keys with the kubaton already in the left hand (i usually have it in my hand, especially at night), i held it up to the first guy, and told him 'back off!' didnt do the trick, in fact he kinda looked at me like whats that? Haha is that suppose to scare me kinda look? i saw another man in the car about 2 times bigger then me, 300lb give or take, me im (170lb 5'8), he gets out and thats when i yelled 'stay in the ******* car!' i put my hand on the back of my belt and whipped out my knife and told him and his buddy 'i dont need either of the weapons to kick both of your 'butts'' and told them i was a black belt and both put their hands up and told me to 'just chill with the knife dude' i decide to put the knife away when they complied to stop approaching me. i told them to get back to their car and drive away. 


they left, however after i thought about what i did that night, i regret having to pull the knife before i needed too...


Oddly enough i forgot the most important thing, im a 2nd degree black belt! I dont need a knife to protect myself! even tho i felt very threatened at the moment.


to this day i keep my knife in the car because if they called the cops its both of their words against my own and because i dont need it


Its just very hard to tell what a person, even yourself, will do while being threatened.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 7, 2012)

Elite09g8 said:


> I showed it! my Sog trident tanto (folding knife) and a kubaton!
> 
> 
> i was headed to my car late at night by myself in Dec. 2011, when 1 man got out of a car and threatend to beat the 'crap' out of me... For what? I didnt bother even asking, i just dropped the grocerys in my one hand. The keys with the kubaton already in the left hand (i usually have it in my hand, especially at night), i held it up to the first guy, and told him 'back off!' didnt do the trick, in fact he kinda looked at me like whats that? Haha is that suppose to scare me kinda look? i saw another man in the car about 2 times bigger then me, 300lb give or take, me im (170lb 5'8), he gets out and thats when i yelled 'stay in the ******* car!' i put my hand on the back of my belt and whipped out my knife and told him and his buddy 'i dont need either of the weapons to kick both of your 'butts'' and told them i was a black belt and both put their hands up and told me to 'just chill with the knife dude' i decide to put the knife away when they complied to stop approaching me. i told them to get back to their car and drive away.
> ...


Are You sure You didnt defeat them with a blend of Confusion and a Knife?


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## Supra Vijai (Jul 7, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Are You sure You didnt defeat them with a blend of Confusion and a Knife?



I was wondering how to reply....


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## Chris Parker (Jul 7, 2012)

To address the OP. 

There are no hard and fast rules, and if you're looking for them, you've missed the point. In other words, as the situation dictates or requires. What works in one situation is suicidal in another... or has you in jail for many years. The best advice is to understand the realities of potential action (and inaction), and work to maintain a calm mind under adrenaline so you can apply any action as needed.



Elite09g8 said:


> I showed it! my Sog trident tanto (folding knife) and a kubaton!
> 
> 
> i was headed to my car late at night by myself in Dec. 2011, when 1 man got out of a car and threatend to beat the 'crap' out of me... For what? I didnt bother even asking, i just dropped the grocerys in my one hand. The keys with the kubaton already in the left hand (i usually have it in my hand, especially at night), i held it up to the first guy, and told him 'back off!' didnt do the trick, in fact he kinda looked at me like whats that? Haha is that suppose to scare me kinda look? i saw another man in the car about 2 times bigger then me, 300lb give or take, me im (170lb 5'8), he gets out and thats when i yelled 'stay in the ******* car!' i put my hand on the back of my belt and whipped out my knife and told him and his buddy 'i dont need either of the weapons to kick both of your 'butts'' and told them i was a black belt and both put their hands up and told me to 'just chill with the knife dude' i decide to put the knife away when they complied to stop approaching me. i told them to get back to their car and drive away.
> ...





Supra Vijai said:


> I was wondering how to reply....



Oh, that's an easy one to reply to. There's nothing really unusual about the post, really. High adrenaline situation where the unconscious looks for it's most powerful option, which in this case was a weapon or two (knife and kubotan), as well as a fair amount of forced bravado. The antagonists were looking for a soft, or easy target, so chose someone smaller (and carrying groceries, therefore both hands were occupied), and didn't want to risk someone who might fight back. Monkey dance one, bad guys zero, really. I wouldn't advise yelling "I'm a black belt", though. But what's obvious is that the training that Elite has gone through wasn't (unconsciously) recognized as powerful enough to rely on... so he upped the stakes. It really could have gone either way... and honestly, if he didn't have the weapons out, saying he was a black belt would have more likely egged the bad guys on, not intimidated them. A black belt just doesn't have the mystique it used to have, for a number of reasons... quite a few of which are valid.


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## Supra Vijai (Jul 7, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Oh, that's an easy one to reply to. There's nothing really unusual about the post, really. High adrenaline situation where the unconscious looks for it's most powerful option, which in this case was a weapon or two (knife and kubotan), as well as a fair amount of forced bravado. The antagonists were looking for a soft, or easy target, so chose someone smaller (and carrying groceries, therefore both hands were occupied), and didn't want to risk someone who might fight back. Monkey dance one, bad guys zero, really. I wouldn't advise yelling "I'm a black belt", though. But what's obvious is that the training that Elite has gone through wasn't (unconsciously) recognized as powerful enough to rely on... so he upped the stakes. It really could have gone either way... and honestly, if he didn't have the weapons out, saying he was a black belt would have more likely egged the bad guys on, not intimidated them. A black belt just doesn't have the mystique it used to have, for a number of reasons... quite a few of which are valid.



Ahh that makes sense. My comment wasn't meant to sound sarcastic or condescending - which it sorta does looking back at it out of the context of my own head - so my apologies to Elite if that's how it came across. My issue was more the risk involved in introducing weapons or pulling out the black belt card which as you mentioned can be the catalyst for a situation to escalate rapidly. 

The other thing that stuck out was keeping the knife in the car should the police ever become involved. It's still in close enough proximity generally to rule out that it had ever been present during the confrontation described which as I understand it doesn't do a whole lot for the "defense" side of things?


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## Chris Parker (Jul 7, 2012)

Yeah, having the knife nearby (but not using it) doesn't help if there are legal issues with having it in the first place. For us (Victoria, Australia), there needs to be a reason for the knife to be present, and "self defense" isn't one.


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## Christian Soldier (Jul 7, 2012)

Thanks guys. 

Chris, it's a knife, they are supposed to have thousands of uses, I'm sure you can think of at least one if you had to to tell any kind of judicial system. 

I do know the difference between a heated argument and a confrontation. This scenario was just blatantly obvious it's going to be a confrontation. I guess I'll figure it out when I get there.


And yeah, I agree about the black belt thing. Too many kids (litterally kids) and adults boast about that kind of thing and any kind of arrogant belligerent (which is pretty much all of them) will want to have the story of how he whooped a black belt.

Verbal communication makes a big difference, and can be more influnecial on a fight than any blade.


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## Supra Vijai (Jul 7, 2012)

Christian Soldier said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> Chris, *it's a knife, they are supposed to have thousands of uses, I'm sure you can think of at least one if you had to to tell any kind of judicial system.
> *
> ...



That doesn't fly over here I'm afraid. I know people who have copped $1000 fines for carrying a box cutter in their bag because they use it for work. They weren't however going to work at the time and had simply not bothered to unpack it so the excuse was not accepted. From memory first strike over here is a monetary fine, second and any subsequent strikes are jail time. The same applies for our martial arts training gear - even the wooden stuff - so we generally need to have some proof of belonging to a club or organization and be en route to training or home from training to be allowed to carry the stuff without penalty. A few students at my school (myself included) have taken to transporting our gear in rifle cases with 3 separate locks that have the school logo matching our membership cards clearly displayed on the side as an added precaution for this. Even then, we'd think twice about having our metal training folders out in the open in the case as it's a whole new headache and we'd rather not deal with it. 

As for the part about verbal communication, yeah, agreed it makes a big difference but as I understand it, it's about knowing when to verbalize and more importantly, _how and what _to verbalize. Every time you engage an opponent in a discussion you run the risk of getting into the monkey dance mentioned above or accidentally bruising the other person's ego in some fashion and escalating the whole thing, not to mention the fact that your brain is so focused on what is being said that you can miss their friend moving into position or launching an attack.


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## MJS (Jul 7, 2012)

Christian Soldier said:


> I haven't been in such a situation but I've read the story of a guy on the CS forum (unfortunately I can't remember where) where he and his wife were walking out of a theater when a group of older teenage guys were looking for a fight and started to surround them, he pulled out a knife, convinceing them they really didn't want a fight and the belligerents ran away. In this scenerio, if he had kept the knife hidden and only used it when they attacked, he might have seriously injured or killed one of the guys.
> 
> From your post, I've learned that it's largely situationally dependant. If you guys have any wisdom or insight on what situations you would do what, that would be helpfull. Thanks!



As I said, laws will differ from state to state.  I'm sharing what happened where I live.  Use of force laws will come into play.  You don't see a LEO draw down on an unarmed person, do you?  They have a use of force policy to follow.  Perhaps something along the lines of empty hand first, OC, taser, baton, etc.  Again, depending on the state, and since you're in a situation where you're outnumbered, as you describe above, pulling the knife may be justified.  But, if its not, and those kids ran off and called the cops...well, you see where I'm going with this?


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## WC_lun (Jul 7, 2012)

If you see an attacker coming and pull a knife, don't pull it for show.  You pull it to use it.  Anything else is a waste of time.  Now having said that, if you pull a knife, you better damn well be versed in its use and the ramifications of that use, including personal morals and legalities.  Hopefully you will not have to use the knife, but never pull one without the express purpose of using it.  Don't ever carry a weapon for ego, as that is the fastest and easiest way to either get yourself hurt and/or in trouble with the law.

There are different ways to use a knife.  Whichever ways you have trained and are comfortable with are the ways you should use it.


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## Christian Soldier (Jul 8, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> If you see an attacker coming and pull a knife, don't pull it for show. You pull it to use it. Anything else is a waste of time. Now having said that, if you pull a knife, you better damn well be versed in its use and the ramifications of that use, including personal morals and legalities. Hopefully you will not have to use the knife, but never pull one without the express purpose of using it. Don't ever carry a weapon for ego, as that is the fastest and easiest way to either get yourself hurt and/or in trouble with the law.
> 
> There are different ways to use a knife. Whichever ways you have trained and are comfortable with are the ways you should use it.



I couldn't agree more. If I draw my knife during any kind of dangerous confrontation, it would be to use it. The question is if I should keep it hidden from the attacker untill he closses the distance and then cut him, or to put the blade out in front of you to possibly convinve the other guy it's not worth it.

MJS, there are very few, if any, fights that don't have any heavy legal ramifications. Bad things can happen, that's just the nature of the legal system and fights, even if they are clear self defence.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 8, 2012)

Christian Soldier said:


> I couldn't agree more. If I draw my knife during any kind of dangerous confrontation, it would be to use it. The question is if I should keep it hidden from the attacker untill he closses the distance and then cut him, or to put the blade out in front of you to possibly convinve the other guy it's not worth it.
> 
> MJS, there are very few, if any, fights that don't have any heavy legal ramifications. Bad things can happen, that's just the nature of the legal system and fights, even if they are clear self defence.


Closes the distance? You realise thats probably 1-3 steps, right?


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## MA-Caver (Jul 8, 2012)

Long time ago I wrote in detail in a thread relating to this topic. Long story short... I don't show you my blade. It'll flash out and cut you then go back into hiding. I've learned to switch hands quickly so you won't know which hand to watch for that has the knife. 
Years ago I was at a bus-stop (late night) in a not so friendly neighborhood but I was there on personal business, now going home. I observed two men walking towards me from several blocks away. Red flags and little hairs on my neck went up. I got my knife out and held it with the flat of the blade resting inside my jacket sleeve, against my wrist. When they attacked me, they were surprised that this little dog had teeth and nearly sliced one and stabbed the other in the first 10 seconds of the attack. Another slash from nowhere and they stepped back to reassess, at that opportunity I ran like hell. 
Turns out one of them had a gun and didn't pull it out until just moments before their attack. Had I exposed my blade I think I'd been shot by the guy from a safe distance. They closed their attack unknowingly to MY advantage not theirs because I chose to keep my blade hidden until the final moments. Their surprise and moving out of my (blade's) range gave me the opening I needed to escape and evade.  Henceforth I always carry and it's always within easy reach and it will never be revealed until exactly when I need it. 
If it were one on one I don't think I'd use my blade but 2:1 or more, screw that buddy, I'm unsheathing my claws.


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## MJS (Jul 9, 2012)

Christian Soldier said:


> MJS, there are very few, if any, fights that don't have any heavy legal ramifications. Bad things can happen, that's just the nature of the legal system and fights, even if they are clear self defence.



Hmm....seems we're talking about 2 different things here.  Fights, IMO, are usually ego driven events; things that happen at a set time/place.  SD, IMO, is when you've done everything you could, if possible, to defuse the situation, it failed, and now you must defend yourself; you're at the ATM and someone attempts to mug you.  So, yes, fighting will most likely land both parties in hot water.  SD not as much.  The thing is....using common sense, is IMO, the best defense, however, many times, people dont use it.  That is how alot of trouble happens...when they dont think.  Know the laws, know what you're legally allowed/not allowed to do.  As I said, using a knife, if the situation doesnt warrant it, well, chances are, you're going to find yourself in more trouble than you asked for.  Just because you carry a knife, doesnt mean that is the green light to pull it out whenever you want.


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## Master Dan (Jul 9, 2012)

This is a serious subject suggesting that novices or even the general MA population kids women youth and majority of adults should attempt to defend against a knife is beyond cute demonstrations life threatening and should be avoided at all costs if possible. I worked with knives for 12 years and have many scars lost possibly 3 gallons of blood over time. Since I am right handed even though you try to be amadextrous my left side has most of the damage. My left hand to this day has poor circulation even though after micro surgery they can put tendons nerves and aloth of things back together this hand gets cold fast and gets infected faster than the other. The one wound that I could have died from happend in the dark so when the lights went on the spurting blood was a surpise and my face went numb and about to pass out also nauseated I went to floor bent over put head down and regained slapped direct presure and had help getting to hospital I knew if I passed out I would bleed out.

There is no such thing as not getting cut in a knife fight period just assume that what you are trying to focus on not getting hit in a vital area and the other guy gets the mortal or dibilitating cut. Never telescope your intentions to an oponent strike by surprise never showing the blade walk away leave the impression if witnesses he cut himself maybe he is a bleeder? Worse thing anyone could do is yell I have a gun or a knife you just gave away an advantage and the Im a black belt maybe they were going to use thier hands now they pull a gun or weopons. 

Anything you carry has the potential to be used on you and if they are not armed you just helped them to be armed because you did not have the emotional mental and experience to use the weopon with out hesitation.

I don't mind being cut and I have no fear of seeing my own blood when a person pulls a gun or knife it just give me attitude and releases me from any obligation to worry about hurting them unless they are in a state that make them defenseless and they need help more than being hurt for having a weopon? Quick judgments in how to walk away if you can is never a bad choice if you can the cost to your body your family the other person is going to be substantial and has odds that can go either way.

I have gone against bats knive and guns in close physically but two times survived against guns only becuase of posturing and verbal usage that otherwise I would have been shot probably not surviviing. one example on a Thanksgiving day I am in a city of 300,000 people and as I pull into a gas station a man pull in behind me agitated gets out of his truck obviously holding a gun behind his back ready to gut shoot me becasue he thinks I have not signaled. I would not be able to get in close before he discharge the pistol so I posture non threating and tell him hey maybe the signals are not working he agrees to watch me test them and one side did not work he puts the gun back in his belly and gets in his truck screaming and driving erratically off other people pumping gas are white faced I get home call the Police to give a discription since he was high on drugs driving under the influence and armed the police dispatcher complained hey its Thanks Giving we are short handed and busy and hung up? 

Came out of no where you life flashes in front of you if a man has a gun and i can reach him before he pulls it I am not to worried but 10 to 15 feet away and no cover its not the movies your going to be shot. I hope none of you have to defend against a knife stay out of it avoid it if no choice get to cover or help if not stand your ground focus on the knife you have nothing to loose determine if there is any way you can talk them out of it do it unless you can take the pain and the blood.

Combat? something else the Korean knife comandos that relayed thier stories about the atack from the North into the South said those who stood thier ground were wounded but survived and those who ran out of fear died?


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## Supra Vijai (Jul 9, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> There is no such thing as not getting cut in a *knife fight* period just assume that what you are trying to focus on not getting hit in a vital area and the other guy gets the mortal or dibilitating cut.



I highlight this only because in my mind, there is a very real and very big difference between self defense against a knife and getting into a knife fight. A fight as MJS mentioned above implies some form of ego and relies on both parties having a knife in the equation. Self Defense with a knife or against a knife though is very different and yes you can expect to get cut every time you go up against a knife but what you do to your opponent needs to be appropriate to the situation. 

If someone is verbally abusing me from 10 feet away and I run up and shank them or cut them in any way - hell, even if I just run up and hit them - it's no longer self defense. If they are in my face and I honestly fear for my safety then yes I can respond but again how much force I use needs to be proportional. I do like your bit about not showing the knife to capture the element of surprise though. I don't know if "he stabbed himself repeatedly" would hold up too well but can definitely see it for something could truly be accidental like a slash. That said, if you have a knife and he has a knife, worry less about witnesses (they will see his knife as well as yours and know who attacked first if you draw attention to it straight away) so everything from that point is purely defensive. 

It sounds like you've had a bit of combat experience though, which allows you to retain your calm somewhat better than most civilians could? Would I be right?


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## Christian Soldier (Jul 9, 2012)

Master Dan, that may be one of the most impressive civilian expierience records I've read. 

From this thread I've gatherd that hiding the fact you are armed with a knife and the knowldge of how to use it from your enemy is the best option. Sure there are variables and probably situations that will require this strategy be modified, but I think that's a good general rule to follow.


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## Instructor (Jul 9, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> There is no such thing as not getting cut in a knife fight period just assume that what you are trying to focus on not getting hit in a vital area and the other guy gets the mortal or dibilitating cut. Never telescope your intentions to an oponent strike by surprise never showing the blade walk away leave the impression if witnesses he cut himself maybe he is a bleeder? Worse thing anyone could do is yell I have a gun or a knife you just gave away an advantage and the Im a black belt maybe they were going to use thier hands now they pull a gun or weopons.



With respect sir.  I survived a knife attack without getting cut.  Your statement is factual in actuality, I think maybe God was just looking out for me.


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## Supra Vijai (Jul 9, 2012)

Instructor said:


> With respect sir.  I survived a knife attack without getting cut.  Your statement is factual in actuality, I think maybe God was just looking out for me.



Just out of curiosity, was it verbal de-escalation that worked or did things get physical and you managed to get out unscathed? Either way, congrats! That's an awesome result!


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## Instructor (Jul 9, 2012)

I was attacked repeatedly by a knife wielding bi-polar person on the wrong meds.  I utilized a child car seat as a barricade.  The car seat was stabbed repeatedly.  I couldn't simply run away because I had two small children to look after.  Eventually I was able to dislodge the knife with the car seat.  At that point I switched to Hapkido and executed a trapping arm bar takedown.  I pinned the person and tied both hands behind their back with my leather belt.  I asked one of the kids to call the 911 and we all waited there like that till the cops showed up.


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## Supra Vijai (Jul 9, 2012)

Instructor said:


> I was attacked repeatedly by a knife wielding bi-polar person on the wrong meds.  I utilized a child car seat as a barricade.  The car seat was stabbed repeatedly.  I couldn't simply run away because I had two small children to look after.  Eventually I was able to dislodge the knife with the car seat.  At that point I switched to Hapkido and executed a trapping arm bar takedown.  I pinned the person and tied both hands behind their back with my leather belt.  I asked one of the kids to call the 911 and we all waited there like that till the cops showed up.



Again, awesome result and I can only imagine how scary that must have been especially with children there. Congrats on your presence of mind in using an object as a shield and using your training to subdue and restrain your opponent as opposed to letting ego come into play


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## Instructor (Jul 9, 2012)

The part of my training that contributed the most is to simply react and not freeze up.  I was more scared after it happened than during.  Felt tired and shaky afterwords.  I hate fighting.


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## Buka (Jul 9, 2012)

I guess it depends on context. There's tactics, and there's the real world we all live in with the aftermath of law, witnesses, cameras, court, guilt etc.

As for _tactics_ - I ain't showing my hand until you call.

As for the _real world_ - I'm glad some of my students are practicing attorneys.


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## Chrisoro (May 3, 2015)

Instructor said:
			
		

> I was attacked repeatedly by a knife wielding bi-polar person on the wrong meds. I utilized a child car seat as a barricade. The car seat was stabbed repeatedly. I couldn't simply run away because I had two small children to look after. Eventually I was able to dislodge the knife with the car seat. At that point I switched to Hapkido and executed a trapping arm bar takedown. I pinned the person and tied both hands behind their back with my leather belt. I asked one of the kids to call the 911 and we all waited there like that till the cops showed up.



Instructor's experience with a knife attack mirrors my own experience being attacked with an improvised pointy weapon some years ago.

At the time, I worked regular night shift as a milieu therapist at a locked door psychiatric ward(that is, the doors between the ward and the rest of the hospital were locked, not the individual doors to each patients room in the ward). This was a fairly high security ward for high risk patients with a history of violence, and the patient I was responsible for watching this night, had a complex history with many attempted suicides and pretty horrific episodes of self harm, and also many cases of attacking staff and attempting to attack other patients. He was also fiendishly strong for his size, usually requiring several staff to take him down whenever he freaked out.

As a long time drug addict, he had responded poorly to a wide range of the usual antipsychotics, and constantly switched between full out psychosis and relatively clearity of mind in a quite unpredictable fashion. Because of this, at the time he were to be confined to his room (which had it's own separate bathroom), unless there were good reasons for letting him out of it, and then only with two staff accompanying him at all times.

Usually we were also two people watching him at all times in his room, or sitting in a small room between his room and the corridor outside, which served as a small buffer between him and the rest of the ward (which we also used for temporary storage of garbage and dirty laundry from the patient), in case he decided he would make another attempt at escape or attacking someone.

However, as we had some staffing capacity problems, we were only three people on watch that night, with a responsibility to watch in total five patients. We did however have alarms in our belts, that if deployed would give us fast backup from nearby colleagues, and from colleagues in the other nearby wards in usually less than a minute. As the other four patients were asleep, and one of my colleagues had to write reports in the office at the end of the corridor, we decided that my other colleague should sit in a chair just out in the corridor, next to the door to the small room where I was sitting, while the patient slept in the innermost room. We thought that this would give my colleague good time to enter the smaller room where I was sitting, in case I needed backup.

Usually, the patients on this ward used a dedicated smoking room, but as this particular patient posed a threat to the other patients in his current condition, he was allowed to smoke in his own room. Because of this, the door between his room and the small room I was sitting in, was closed most of the time, to let staff (which primarily consisted of non-smokers) avoid breathe in the smoke from his constant use of cigarettes. As every patient and his belongings are searched thoroughly whenever entering the facility, and his room were searched every day for objects he could use to hurt us or himself, we thought that this was a safe setup.

Well, as I sat there reading a book and listening for activity in his room, around four in the morning he suddently opened the door and came at me with something that to me looked like a knife. As I sat in the chair with my back to a wall, I didn't have time or space to get up quickly enough, and the only thing I could do was to push him back into his room with my leg. This pushed him about two meters backwards. As I got up from the chair, he went at me again, and I figured that I didn't have time to turn around and pick up the chair I had been sitting in, so instead I picked up a partially full laundry basket(looking a bit like this) that was placed next to the wall a bit in front of me and to the side, and used this as a shield between him and me. By pushing myself forward with one leg against either the wall or the chair, I managed to push him backwards again with the laundry basket in front of me, and back into his room, and the momentum let me continue to push him until I reached the other wall. This gave me the opportunity to lean into the basket, and let go of it with one of my hands so that I could use it to trigger the alarm in my belt. The colleague in the corridor immediately entered the room, we got a hold of his arm, and continued to wrestle a bit with him until further backup arrived a short wile later, and we managed to take him down and pin him to the floor.

It turned out that what he had tried to stab me with, was a plastic toothbrush that he had partially melted with his lighter, and formed into a pointy triangular shank by melting and pressing the handle towards the table in his room. It may not have presented much danger of cutting me, but as a stabbing weapon, it would definitely have been effective enough to severely hurt me had he managed to stab me with it.

After nearly 20 years of martial arts training at the time, and with all my hours of training knife defenses in several different systems, what I ended up using for defense when attacked with a pointy weapon was a laundry basket. But it worked, so I'm not complaining.


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## BMhadoken (May 4, 2015)

Fun night, Chrisoro. Apparently there's basically nothing that can't be turned into a shiv with some misapplied ingenuity.

My own (untested) take on the subject: First of all, you'd better be damned certain your life is in real danger before you even put that knife in your hand, because anything you do with it after that is a felony waiting to be unleashed. Would I show it to them? Hell no. First of all, it tells them exactly what to expect, and if you're actually mentally preparing yourself and choosing targets for the moment they step in, that intent is gonna leak in your stance, body language, facial expression, etc. That intent is what might dissuade them, not waving the knife around like a cross before a vampire. That's just another raise in the monkey escalato game.

If you want advice on the legal issues of carrying and using a knife (or gun) for self defense, consult an actual attorney.


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## RTKDCMB (May 4, 2015)

Instructor said:


> Simply holding a knife isn't exactly the same as brandishing it to intimidate.


Unless you happen to be the one facing the pointy end.


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## Mad_Dog (May 4, 2015)

Straight up, if some jabroni pulls a blade on me I'm taking it from him and shoving it up his *** guaranteed.


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## donald1 (May 5, 2015)

pretty sure in many places that's illegal (funny) and maybe the person deserves it but realistically there should be more control. self defense might be take the knife away harming them with it would probably be retaliation.


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## Mad_Dog (May 5, 2015)

donald1 said:


> pretty sure in many places that's illegal (funny) and maybe the person deserves it but realistically there should be more control. self defense might be take the knife away harming them with it would probably be retaliation.


Whether it be legal or illegal, there's right and there's wrong.  If a man pulls a knife on me, he's doing wrong and you better believe it's going to be addressed, think the pencil trick the Joker did in the Dark Knight.  In fact, imagine that knife as Alice, and his rectal cavity the rabbit hole, if you catch my drift.


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## martiallightnin (May 6, 2015)

interesting thoughts here !


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