# i feel mma can present struggles for further study at particular, non mma martial arts



## martial sparrer

I have been studying mma for 5 years now.  the mma that I have been studying is of course a mixture of: karate, muay thai, boxing, jeet kune do etc.   so now I am sparring with opponents, and presently I have found that I need a step up in sparring opponents.   I am very interested in joining a non-mma dojo to learn a traditional martial art.  I feel like if I do though I will be starting at zero and learning a whole bunch of stuff that I already know and can apply - for example karate, well I have been practicing a whole range of kicks for 5 years.  taekwondo, same thing, wing chin, I have done lots of boxing, kenpo - the instructor told me its like boxing with some kicks, and I wont be sparring until 6 months in.  now Im kinda discouraged.  IS MY THINKING WRONG HERE  thanks rocco.


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## Cyriacus

Plenty of MMA people learn other stuff to concentrate on learning certain things, or to focus on certain areas. You wont be starting from nothing. Consider the you before you did any sort of training ever, and thats starting from nothing. Youre starting with alot, and probably just either learning new ways to use the same stuff, or some new stuff you can use in ways youre already familiar with. The important thing is the type of training youll get, and what it is exactly youre being trained to do.

With that being said, 6 months is a hefty investment for *maybe* getting something out of it. If it were me, i wouldnt do it. Youre not wrong in your thinking. Unless its something you really think youre going to benefit from that you couldnt get from somewhere else.


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## Blindside

martial sparrer said:


> I have been studying mma for 5 years now.  the mma that I have been studying is of course a mixture of: karate, muay thai, boxing, jeet kune do etc.   so now I am sparring with opponents, and presently I have found that I need a step up in sparring opponents.   I am very interested in joining a non-mma dojo to learn a traditional martial art.  I feel like if I do though I will be starting at zero and learning a whole bunch of stuff that I already know and can apply - for example karate, well I have been practicing a whole range of kicks for 5 years.  taekwondo, same thing, wing chin, I have done lots of boxing, kenpo - the instructor told me its like boxing with some kicks, and I wont be sparring until 6 months in.  now Im kinda discouraged.  IS MY THINKING WRONG HERE  thanks rocco.



How about martial arts that don't have an unarmed focus?  As an example say the Filipino martial arts, focus on using and defending against knives, sticks, machetes etc.  Practical, yet in an area that you haven't had much overlap in.  Alternately you might look at some of the historical western martial art recreations.


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## rframe

If a particular dojo/style values a solid base and spends hours upon hours practicing kihon and kata, but you feel you already know that and all you want to do is spar then you'll probably just be frustrated and you may be disruptive to the goals of the rest of the class.  In my primary art, we spend a lot of time drilling basics and 2nd degree black belts are still working basic strikes and blocks right along with white belts.  The movements might be the same but the focus of the drills is very different.  So, if someone is not open to learning and improving what they "already know" then they are going to be very frustrated at best. 

If you want to learn a traditional martial art, you should be open to learning it the way they teach it. You can modify it and use it your own way in free sparring or in the octagon, but be respectful to the school and teacher while learning and do it their way.  

If you only want to spar against people of different styles and not learn the details of those arts, then I'd say you should talk with the instructors of those dojos and be honest about your desires.  They might simply not see it as a productive use of their limited time, or they may very well welcome the chance to have some of their students work with you in some sparring-focused sessions.  But this way, your intentions are clear and everyone is on the same page.

Private lessons can also be very productive when a student has specific goals and interests that aren't ideal for the whole group.

Good luck.


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## Touch Of Death

martial sparrer said:


> I have been studying mma for 5 years now.  the mma that I have been studying is of course a mixture of: karate, muay thai, boxing, jeet kune do etc.   so now I am sparring with opponents, and presently I have found that I need a step up in sparring opponents.   I am very interested in joining a non-mma dojo to learn a traditional martial art.  I feel like if I do though I will be starting at zero and learning a whole bunch of stuff that I already know and can apply - for example karate, well I have been practicing a whole range of kicks for 5 years.  taekwondo, same thing, wing chin, I have done lots of boxing, kenpo - the instructor told me its like boxing with some kicks, and I wont be sparring until 6 months in.  now Im kinda discouraged.  IS MY THINKING WRONG HERE  thanks rocco.


Correction: You will be learning stuff you think you already know.


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## Tony Dismukes

martial sparrer said:


> I have been studying mma for 5 years now.  the mma that I have been studying is of course a mixture of: karate, muay thai, boxing, jeet kune do etc.   so now I am sparring with opponents, and presently *I have found that I need a step up in sparring opponents*.   I am very interested in joining a non-mma dojo to learn a traditional martial art.  I feel like if I do though I will be starting at zero and learning a whole bunch of stuff that I already know and can apply - for example karate, well I have been practicing a whole range of kicks for 5 years.  taekwondo, same thing, wing chin, I have done lots of boxing, kenpo - the instructor told me its like boxing with some kicks, and I wont be sparring until 6 months in.  now Im kinda discouraged.  IS MY THINKING WRONG HERE  thanks rocco.



Please clarify - do you mean that you need opponents who are a step up (i.e. tougher sparring partners) or that you yourself need to take your skills up a step in order to handle the sparring partners you have?  Also, do you have any other reasons for wanting to study another martial art?


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## frank raud

martial sparrer said:


> I have been studying mma for 5 years now.  the mma that I have been studying is of course a mixture of: karate, muay thai, boxing, jeet kune do etc.   so now I am sparring with opponents, and presently I have found that I need a step up in sparring opponents.   I am very interested in joining a non-mma dojo to learn a traditional martial art.  I feel like if I do though I will be starting at zero and learning a whole bunch of stuff that I already know and can apply - for example karate, well I have been practicing a whole range of kicks for 5 years.  taekwondo, same thing, wing chin, I have done lots of boxing, kenpo - the instructor told me its like boxing with some kicks, and I wont be sparring until 6 months in.  now Im kinda discouraged.  IS MY THINKING WRONG HERE  thanks rocco.



 In the Training Partners Wanted thread you said  "  new to martial arts...been training some boxing and karate principles, some thai boxing, now reading up on bruce lees jeet kune do.been learning martial arts stuff for about 4 years now.  what I would like to do is some light sparring and training exercises."

So a question which immediately comes up is, do you actually train MMA at a club(for the last 4 or 5 years) or have you been teaching yourself "principles" for that period of time? Your thread on combining weightlifting and punching bag workouts is cause for concern that you are not working under any guidance from a qualified instructor. Very few people in Toronto teach JKD, even fewer MMA instructors would list it as a core art, especially with no additional reference to BJJ or wrestling. My spider senses are tingling.


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## martial sparrer

hey thank you so much guys for yur responses! I am leaning towards either a muai thai gym or mma gym I think....to answer franks question I train in home and invite sparring partners in home.  I am a professional and I can afford a little mini dojo slash mma gym that can comfortbly accommodate 5-7 people.  one of my goals slash dreams along with my business partners is too start another mma gym in Toronto.  that would be very exciting! cheers.


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## Tony Dismukes

So you've been teaching yourself based on what, books and videos?  In that case, please let go of the idea that you already know any of what you will be learning in whatever dojo you end up attending.  You may think "oh that's a front kick, that's a left hook, I know how to do that," but there will be a lot of important details you have missed that your instructor will be able to correct you on.


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## martial sparrer

so what your saying is even though I can apply various skills in self defense and simulated fighting, a dojo will teach me the subtle skills and movement I may be lacking.....I can see that.  I tend to talk to blackbelts and instructors for advice.....and they have been confusing me.  many blackbelts will say go to a dojo....no matter what.  some blackbelts say you can learn whatever you want on your own....the real test is applying what you think you know to sparring.   well I can do that quite well so far, hence my need for a gym for higher level sparring.  so what is martial arts:  fighting or something else.....I feel mma in particular is more geared towards fighting, it uses all the best from ma for fighting I find.


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## frank raud

martial sparrer said:


> hey thank you so much guys for yur responses! I am leaning towards either a muai thai gym or mma gym I think....to answer franks question I train in home and invite sparring partners in home.  I am a professional and I can afford a little mini dojo slash mma gym that can comfortbly accommodate 5-7 people.  one of my goals slash dreams along with my business partners is too start another mma gym in Toronto.  that would be very exciting! cheers.



Out of curiousity, what is you a professional in? Are you like a software engineer or an investment banker?


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## martial sparrer

I am a teacher and a stock trader.  my father in law started his own venture capitalist firm after becoming ceo of a large mutual fund company.  and yes, I married a very wealthy woman. I believe along with business partners at the firm that an mma gym would be good for Toronto.  the ufc calls Toronto the mecca of mma but there are only a couple mma gyms.  much better than a casino or brothel!


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## martial sparrer

frank...are you from Toronto.....I would love to get some bjj teaching from a blackbelt......


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## frank raud

martial sparrer said:


> I am a teacher and a stock trader.  my father in law started his own venture capitalist firm after becoming ceo of a large mutual fund company.  and yes, I married a very wealthy woman. I believe along with business partners at the firm that an mma gym would be good for Toronto.  the ufc calls Toronto the mecca of mma but there are only a couple mma gyms.  much better than a casino or brothel!



So, you're a teacher who questions the value of learning under someone qualified to teach? Do you consider yourself to be auto-didactic?


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## frank raud

martial sparrer said:


> frank...are you from Toronto.....I would love to get some bjj teaching from a blackbelt......



I'm in Ottawa. My black belt is in a modern style of jiu jitsu. The tag under my name reflects the amount of posts I have made, not my rank in any martial art. There are several BJJ/MMA/ Muay Thai either in Scarborough or close by.


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## martial sparrer

frank raud said:


> So, you're a teacher who questions the value of learning under someone qualified to teach? Do you consider yourself to be auto-didactic?


 no not at all....the place has to fit my needs though....if I want to train against good high quality opponents that will make my strategy better I cant go to a place that wont let me spar for four months.  I found open mat at yonge and bloor...they have wrestling, bjj, thai etc.  anyways if yu wanna beat someones *** while in Toronto hit me up frank!


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

This is (slightly) off topic, but just want to mention it...I have no problem with you doing your own sparring, and teaching yourself, especially if you can spar capably against bb's and other fighters. BUT, id seriously suggest getting a legitimate instructor and going to a dojo/gym you dedicate yourself to if you're planning on becoming an instructor, if for nothing else then to make sure you dont have any bad habits, know the logical reason behind body-mechanics/certain moves if a student asks, and most importantly see how someone else teaches MMA...its a lot different to learn and teach, completely different mindset you have to have, and different from the mindset of teaching at a school too, so that might not help you as much as you think (might still help though)


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

frank raud said:


> I'm in Ottawa. My black belt is in a modern style of jiu jitsu. The tag under my name reflects the amount of posts I have made, not my rank in any martial art. There are several BJJ/MMA/ Muay Thai either in Scarborough or close by.


But you did say youre a bb in jiu jitsu (although you didnt specify what type) in your profile


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## frank raud

kempodisciple said:


> But you did say youre a bb in jiu jitsu (although you didnt specify what type) in your profile



That would be because I am a black belt in Jiu jitsu, not BJJ.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

frank raud said:


> That would be because I am a black belt in Jiu jitsu, not BJJ.


Yeah, I know, just saying that that at least explains the reason for the assumption you were a blackbelt, not just the tag under your name


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## Aiki Lee

So what do you feel are the "struggles for further study at particular, non mma martial arts"? Are you saying that you feel an mma practitioner would possible have a harder time fitting in at a traditional school?


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## Chris Parker

Let's take this back to the beginning.... or, to start with, the end of the beginning....



martial sparrer said:


> IS MY THINKING WRONG HERE



Yes. Very.

Let's recap why.



martial sparrer said:


> I have been studying mma for 5 years now.



Hmm. Not sure about that, based on your other comments... It sounds more like you've been doing what you think MMA is for the last 5 years... which is a vastly different thing.



martial sparrer said:


> the mma that I have been studying is of course a mixture of: karate, muay thai, boxing, jeet kune do etc.



"Of course"? Why would that mix be "of course"? Especially considering the addition (if it's actually there, rather than just reading books and thinking that's the same thing) of JKD... 

Honestly, I don't think you understand anything about what MMA is, nor indeed any martial arts... but we'll get back to that.



martial sparrer said:


> so now I am sparring with opponents, and presently I have found that I need a step up in sparring opponents.   I am very interested in joining a non-mma dojo to learn a traditional martial art.



Okay, why? I'm serious, why are you "very interested in joining a non-mma dojo to learn a traditional art"? It sounds like you want to train in what you want to train, and only do what you want to do... which is kinda the opposite of wanting to train in something like a traditional, non-mma martial art.



martial sparrer said:


> I feel like if I do though I will be starting at zero and learning a whole bunch of stuff that I already know and can apply - for example karate, well I have been practicing a whole range of kicks for 5 years.  taekwondo, same thing, wing chin, I have done lots of boxing, kenpo - the instructor told me its like boxing with some kicks, and I wont be sparring until 6 months in.  now Im kinda discouraged.



You're already at zero. In fact, you're worse than zero, you're thinking you already know. I mean, you talk about "for example karate, well I have been practicing a whole range of kicks for 5 years"... so what? Who says you're doing them properly, or the way karate teach them? What do you know of karate strategy and methodology? Being able to throw some kicks doesn't mean a thing, you realize... I've had students come from a range of backgrounds, and in each case, it's up to me to take them back to zero from where they think they know what they're doing... not because what they are doing is wrong, or bad, but that it's not the way things are done in my system. What's worse is when students come in having convinced themselves (without any real experience) that, based on books they've read, or things "friends have shown them", or even from "sparring with friends", that they know something. Invariably, they don't.

If you go to learn a martial art, go to learn it. Not to try to do what you already do (whether well or badly) in their school... it's damn rude, for one thing. It's like going into a French class, and insisting that you get to speak Italian there, instead of French, as you think the accent is sexier. So, if you do take this path, do it to learn what they teach you. And, understand that the reason you don't spar for the first six months might be because, until that point, you don't have anywhere near enough experience or understanding of how things are done in the system to actually employ it in a sparring context... I mean, what's the point in letting you spar in, say, a karate class, if you can't actually do the basic kicks the way they're taught there? And yes, different forms of karate will teach the same, or similar kicks quite differently... Kempo even more so (oh, and the comment about Kempo being like "boxing with some kicks" was a simplification, not an accurate description. These things aren't easy to describe to someone unless they are already involved in such practice, so that comment was really about giving some basic frame of reference, due to the detail that you don't actually have any real experience).



martial sparrer said:


> IS MY THINKING WRONG HERE  thanks rocco.



Completely.



martial sparrer said:


> so what your saying is even though I can apply various skills in self defense and simulated fighting, a dojo will teach me the subtle skills and movement I may be lacking.....I can see that.  I tend to talk to blackbelts and instructors for advice.....and they have been confusing me.  many blackbelts will say go to a dojo....no matter what.  some blackbelts say you can learn whatever you want on your own....the real test is applying what you think you know to sparring.   well I can do that quite well so far, hence my need for a gym for higher level sparring.  so what is martial arts:  fighting or something else.....I feel mma in particular is more geared towards fighting, it uses all the best from ma for fighting I find.



You may be able to scrap, but that's not saying that you can apply karate, or TKD, or anything, really, just that you feel you can apply (to a degree of success) your impression of what such arts are... and, really, your posts don't lead me to believe you really know what they are. If you just want to scrap, fine. If you want to learn and know a martial art, then learn one. You haven't started that yet. It's not just the "subtle skills and movement", you (so far) don't have any martial art knowledge. Oh, and the black belts who say the real test is applying what you know to sparring, well, I'd disagree with them. But firstly, I'd point out that you need to look at what it is you're applying... if you haven't learnt karate, how can you apply karate in sparring? Again, you might be able to scrap, but that's not the same thing. And, bluntly, what MMA is most geared towards is being successful in MMA competition. That's it. And no, it doesn't "use all the best from martial arts for fighting"... comments like that really do show that you don't have any real understanding here.



martial sparrer said:


> I am a teacher and a stock trader.  my father in law started his own venture capitalist firm after becoming ceo of a large mutual fund company.  and yes, I married a very wealthy woman. I believe along with business partners at the firm that an mma gym would be good for Toronto.  the ufc calls Toronto the mecca of mma but there are only a couple mma gyms.  much better than a casino or brothel!



You and some "business partners at the firm" believe that an MMA gym would be good for Toronto?!? What on earth do you base that on? I'm not arguing that an MMA gym wouldn't be a good thing, but what makes you think you could offer such a thing, seeing as you seem to have no experience in actual MMA, have no experience in any martial art, and only have books and "sparring sessions", not actual experience or education, in anything related? Additionally, how about these places:

http://mechamma.com/

http://openmat.ca/#

http://actionreactionmma.com/

http://revmma.com/

http://grantbrothersmma.com/

http://blackdevilmma.com/home/

http://innercitymma.com/

Are they not enough properly set up gyms, with qualified instruction from people who have spent years learning their art under instruction? Is there really a need for a small gym with no qualified instruction? Really?



martial sparrer said:


> frank...are you from Toronto.....I would love to get some bjj teaching from a blackbelt......



Then join a school. You have plenty around to choose from, including the above MMA gyms (many feature BJJ-only classes), or:

http://www.salvosabjj.com/v3/

http://torontobjj.com/home.cfm

http://www.budokanbjj.ca/jiujitsu/

http://www.torontonogi.com/

Not enough? These were all found on a simple google-search, on the first or second page... all I searched was "Toronto BJJ" and "Toronto MMA"... not really that difficult to find... 



martial sparrer said:


> no not at all....the place has to fit my needs though....if I want to train against good high quality opponents that will make my strategy better I cant go to a place that wont let me spar for four months.  I found open mat at yonge and bloor...they have wrestling, bjj, thai etc.  anyways if yu wanna beat someones *** while in Toronto hit me up frank!



So, you, with no experience, no knowledge or insight into why things are done the way they are in a particular school, want to go in only if they "fit your needs"?!? Can you see that as being potentially arrogant, as well as not actually helping you in the slightest? You want to go and spar against "good, high quality opponents"... who says they want to spar against you? Who are you to train with them? You've come off the street, with no real experience to speak of, no real background, insisting that you need to train with "higher quality opponents" to improve.... why would they take you seriously? Besides that, let's look at whether or not it's actually a way for you to improve, as I'm not convinced it really would. I mean, you might be a mean tennis player among your family, and can beat everyone around you... does playing against Serena Williams improve you? Or do you just get beat? Now, let's change things slightly.... you're a decent tennis player, and can easily beat your family and friends. Now, you get Serena Williams as a coach, not an opponent... how much do you think you could improve then?

The point is, you are sounding like you're limited not so much by sparring partners, but by the simple fact that you just haven't learnt properly in the first place. Better sparring partners might not help, they'll just beat you. But getting actual lessons, joining an actual school, training under someone better (rather than focusing on training against someone better)... that has some potential to improve your skills.

I don't want this to sound too negative, it's aim is to help you, and help you understand just why your discussions with black belts has confused you... it's because you don't have the experience you think you do. You have enthusiasm, which is fantastic... but you need to do something with that enthusiasm. And it needs to be realistic. So far, it just isn't.


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## martial sparrer

hey chris...I appreciate your posts because you know how to discuss things with respect. everyone has lost respect in this world.  I completely see where your at with this.  we differ in that my philosophy is that one can teach themselves and learn about anything, especially with the internet now with tutorials etc..  I think you can teach yourself knowledge and skills but you have to apply them to problem solving and challenges.  hence sparring.  I think I have realized that I do need to take lessons, but karate, tkd, boxing is not for me.  I think an mma gym fits me best.  there is a place that does muay thai classes, wrestling, bjj, and also sparring classes.  I am still flirting with the idea of ninjutsu but I do not think there is a proper school in Toronto.  have to research more.  the instructors and blackbelts that I have talked to have one of two opinions:  join a school period vs. learn whatever you want but the real test is application in sparring and fighting.  I guess because I am rooted as a teacher, I realize that information is overflowing out of everywhere.....we have to apply critical thinking and problem solving.  so yes.....I realize that I need continual lessons from one instructor at a school.


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## martial sparrer

oh....and I think there is something to be said about fighting vs. the "martial art".  I think by nature I am more the fighter than martial artist....although I love all the theory behind being a martial artist, the Way, etc.  I do think that mma as a whole is geared more towards the fighter....for example gsp is the martial artist, nick diaz is the fighter....


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## Chris Parker

martial sparrer said:


> hey chris...I appreciate your posts because you know how to discuss things with respect. everyone has lost respect in this world.



Thanks.



martial sparrer said:


> I completely see where your at with this.  we differ in that my philosophy is that one can teach themselves and learn about anything, especially with the internet now with tutorials etc..



Hmm, I don't think you quite get where I am with this... you can't teach yourself martial arts (a specific martial art). All you can do is fumble through some techniques. That's coming up on three decades of experience saying that, by the way, including studying certain arts from videos and books, then to later take actual classes in them. You cannot learn a martial art from books, videos, or self teaching. There are a large number of reasons, but the biggest is that, without the guidance of an instructor, you don't actually have any way of telling where you're going wrong. And, believe me, it's not a case of "if" you're going wrong, it's where. The other big reason is that, if all you're doing is trying to learn "techniques" (a certain kick, or strike, or throw etc), you might do a passable imitation of it, but you won't understand any of the "why" of the action.... you won't get "why" the foot needs to be turned just that way... or "why" the hips are so important. Most of this can't be really written down, as it takes an instructor watching you to see where you're missing something, and to then point it out.

It's not a philosophy. You cannot learn a martial art by yourself. Internet tutorials can give ideas, but really are only good (the same as any other resource, such as books, videos, even forums like this) as a reference. There has to be a grounding in actual training under an instructor.



martial sparrer said:


> I think you can teach yourself knowledge and skills but you have to apply them to problem solving and challenges.  hence sparring.



You can give yourself knowledge, in the form of facts, names, dates, figures, theories etc, but you can't get real experience or insight. And that's where the learning happens, not in the "knowledge", but in the doing. And, unless you're under an instructor, what you're doing is likely not what you're meant to be doing... so there's really no actual experience there, which leads to no insight.

It's very obvious to the experienced people here when members come along without any genuine experience or insight. It's not a problem, except where the new member thinks that they genuinely do have some form of insight/real knowledge, and we do what we can to help them (such as here). But the thing to remember is that it is really, truly, painfully obvious. It shines through in the posts... we can see when "knowledge" has come from reading and not understanding, and we can see when "knowledge" comes from believing that their "common sense" rationalization is the right answer... and we can see when it's genuine knowledge, gained from experience and insight. I could list dozens of examples of the first two... and less of the latter... but that's just reality. It's not bad, or even negative, it just is. And, in this case, you don't genuinely have any knowledge or insight. You do need an instructor to help you understand the "why"... which teaches why the techniques are the least important part.

Sparring, by the way, is only good at preparing you for sparring. It's only one form of problem solving, or challenge, and (to me), not a really serious one. That's not an attack against sparring arts, for their approaches, it's integral... but, from my side of things, it's just not important or particularly useful.



martial sparrer said:


> I think I have realized that I do need to take lessons, but karate, tkd, boxing is not for me.  I think an mma gym fits me best.  there is a place that does muay thai classes, wrestling, bjj, and also sparring classes.



Cool. So go join an MMA gym. Check out as many around you as you can, and go with the one where you like the vibe, the students, and the coach(es) the most. I would say, though, that I don't think you have any way of judging whether or not karate, or TKD are for you... so far, you don't have any experience with them to make that call. Your karate textbooks aren't really exposure to the art, or to training in it.



martial sparrer said:


> I am still flirting with the idea of ninjutsu but I do not think there is a proper school in Toronto.  have to research more.



Firstly:

http://www.bujinkantoronto.com/

http://bufuikan.com/

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?1712&cxDatabase_databaseID=1&id=39

As with the other schools I linked for your earlier, I'm not endorsing any of them, but this is a quick list that came immediately up when I did a search.

Now, that said, given what you've said about your ideas on martial arts, it's not for you. There's no sparring (some randori, depending on where you go, but that's fairly different), and it just doesn't fit with your idea of what a martial art should be, or should contain. Check it out if you want, but you're not really drawn to anything but a super-imposed image you don't understand.



martial sparrer said:


> the instructors and blackbelts that I have talked to have one of two opinions:  join a school period vs. learn whatever you want but the real test is application in sparring and fighting.



To learn a martial art, you have to join a school, otherwise, you can't learn it. To apply it in sparring and fighting, you need to learn it first, which means you need to join a school... otherwise you don't have anything to "apply".

One more time, though, techniques are not the answer, or even the important thing.



martial sparrer said:


> I guess because I am rooted as a teacher, I realize that information is overflowing out of everywhere.....we have to apply critical thinking and problem solving.  so yes.....I realize that I need continual lessons from one instructor at a school.



Martial arts are not about conscious mind problem solving. They are not about applying critical thinking, either, when it all comes down to it. Doing that can get you killed. Martial arts are about exposure to the lessons (of whichever art) through physical techniques. The aim is to get the mind completely out of the way. In other words, your only thinking of "learning" in an intellectual fashion... that has nothing to do with learning martial arts (which is why you can't learn them from a video, you-tube series, book, or anything else).



martial sparrer said:


> oh....and I think there is something to be said about fighting vs. the "martial art".  I think by nature I am more the fighter than martial artist....although I love all the theory behind being a martial artist, the Way, etc.  I do think that mma as a whole is geared more towards the fighter....for example gsp is the martial artist, nick diaz is the fighter....



What is the "theory behind being a martial artist"? What is "the Way"? You're watching too many movies... Nick and George are as much fighters (competitive athletes in a combat sport) as each other, and as much martial artists as each other. You're letting your personal viewpoints colour the reality.

I heartily recommend you forget everything you think you know, find a school, and learn. From zero, if you can get there (you'll have to... how quickly will depend on how quickly you can forget what you think you know already). Until then, you're not in much of a position to think anything about martial arts. We're more than happy to answer any questions you have... but bear in mind that, at the moment, the most common thing you'll hear is "no, wrong". If you can handle that, then there is hope of a good future for you... if not, then you'll continue the way you are, and, well, frankly it won't amount to anything.


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## martial sparrer

kempodisciple said:


> This is (slightly) off topic, but just want to mention it...I have no problem with you doing your own sparring, and teaching yourself, especially if you can spar capably against bb's and other fighters. BUT, id seriously suggest getting a legitimate instructor and going to a dojo/gym you dedicate yourself to if you're planning on becoming an instructor, if for nothing else then to make sure you dont have any bad habits, know the logical reason behind body-mechanics/certain moves if a student asks, and most importantly see how someone else teaches MMA...its a lot different to learn and teach, completely different mindset you have to have, and different from the mindset of teaching at a school too, so that might not help you as much as you think (might still help though)


oh wow I would never feel comfortable teaching strangers.....the only person I teach is my wifes cousin....and that is just some advice when we spar....for example if I am pressuring him and making him go back I would advise a knee or uppercut to back me off...


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## martial sparrer

chris, I think with a particular traditional martial art you MUST take classes...because there is a history,tradition,culture, set of values etc. that should be and must be adhered too...otherwise it isn't the martial art, it is something else........am I correct here?  in mma there is not so much of a history and culture, so you can dabble and mix and match what works for you.....people think bruce lee was the father of mma because he said study lots, reject what is not useful, keep what is, make it all yur own.  the "Way" comes from book of five rings where the way is when you don't think in martial arts its all one with you.....which you talked about in your post.  you know what I don't mind getting told I am wrong....what I have read and studied in my 5 years has help me tremendously with teaching, raising children, dealing with people....and yes...problem solving!  I hope I can learn about martial arts for the rest of my life....


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

martial sparrer said:


> hey thank you so much guys for yur responses! I am leaning towards either a muai thai gym or mma gym I think....to answer franks question I train in home and invite sparring partners in home.  I am a professional and I can afford a little mini dojo slash mma gym that can comfortbly accommodate 5-7 people.  one of my goals slash dreams along with my business partners is too start another mma gym in Toronto.  that would be very exciting! cheers.


If you started an mma gym, you would have to teach strangers...just fyi...


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## Gnarlie

You know MS, I am inclined to agree with Chris Parker here. You probably would benefit from some time working with an instructor, but you might have to adjust your outlook a little for that to work.

Books that you might read about martial arts are usually written by people who have spent a lot of time training a martial art under an instructor. Typically, those who write about mixing arts have a solid grounding in one art before mixing with others. They didn't just read a bunch of books and then write one of their own, or start inventing their own arts. In most cases, they didn't learn solely from fighting either. There are reasons for those things.

One needs to spend time training the physical aspects of an art correctly and with guidance in order to understand how the art and it's philosophy and strategy work, and _why_ the movements are the way they are. That said, knowing and understanding those things is actually pretty useless. One can understand the theory, and think one knows and can apply it. But when it comes to the crunch, the conscious brain forgets it under pressure. In contrast, when you train a movement correctly hundreds of thousands of times, your body knows it. Then there's nothing for your brain to forget.

Before you go spending time trying to drill and implant movements into your deepest subconscious, isn't it a good idea to know that you are doing them correctly first? It's not something you can learn from a book, or teach yourself without an instructor. 

Though the philosophy, strategy and tactics of an art are typically embedded in its movements and techniques, you need to know what you are looking for under pressure in order to learn those valuable lessons that people write books about. Those lessons are what come from the sweat and hard work, but only when the goal is good.

I don't want to devalue any of the effort you might have put in up to now, but the critical thing here is not 'learning_* about *_martial arts for the rest of my life', but '_*learning martial arts*_ for the rest of my life'. It's your body doing the learning, and your brain that does the support role with ancillary knowledge only. You need a coach, to help you move your body right in the first place. Continued training under an instructor would go a long way towards helping you further clarify, realise and work towards your goals.


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## martial sparrer

so, advanced techniques are fundamentals done really well!


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

martial sparrer said:


> so, advanced techniques are fundamentals done really well!


Not sure what post you got this from, but that is a pretty big oversimplification I've heard before of the idea that fundamentals are present in more advanced techniques, and the advanced techniques are impossible without the proper grounding in fundamentals...I dislike it because it oversimplifies the idea so much that it turns it into something else, which IMO is false.


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## martial sparrer

kempodisciple said:


> Not sure what post you got this from, but that is a pretty big oversimplification I've heard before of the idea that fundamentals are present in more advanced techniques, and the advanced techniques are impossible without the proper grounding in fundamentals...I dislike it because it oversimplifies the idea so much that it turns it into something else, which IMO is false.


You are completing a chain reaction....starting from your mind out through your body.....its instantaneous.....perfect technique and movement...perfect power generation


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

martial sparrer said:


> You are completing a chain reaction....starting from your mind out through your body.....its instantaneous.....perfect technique and movement...perfect power generation


Ok, I'm honestly confused. How is this a response to my post, and what does that have to do with the difference between advance and basic techniques? To be perfectly honest, this post makes absolutely no sense to me.


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## Gnarlie

martial sparrer said:


> so, advanced techniques are fundamentals done really well!



No. That's not what I said. Advanced techniques require just as much specific practice as basics if you want them to work.  You just won't be able to do them right without decent basics. Even with good basics, the complexity of a technique is inversely proportional to its likelihood of success. 

My point was you're not going to get anywhere with any technique without an instructor, and you're certainly not going to get past learning techniques and into the essence of martial arts.

Gnarlie


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## Cyriacus

Gnarlie said:


> No. That's not what I said. Advanced techniques require just as much specific practice as basics if you want them to work.  You just won't be able to do them right without decent basics. Even with good basics, the complexity of a technique is inversely proportional to its likelihood of success.
> 
> My point was you're not going to get anywhere with any technique without an instructor, and you're certainly not going to get past learning techniques and into the essence of martial arts.
> 
> Gnarlie



I shall attempt to turn that into laymans terms, just incase: Some things are easier to learn and do than other things, but after learning those things it can make more difficult things easier to learn.


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## Gnarlie

It's not difficult to understand. It is next to impossible to teach yourself martial arts from scratch without the aid of an instructor. Without an instructor, you'll just be thrashing away at techniques thinking you have them right when you don't, and will not be seeing the principles and lessons that underpin them.

Gnarlie


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## Chris Parker

martial sparrer said:


> oh wow I would never feel comfortable teaching strangers.....the only person I teach is my wifes cousin....and that is just some advice when we spar....for example if I am pressuring him and making him go back I would advise a knee or uppercut to back me off...



That's really not teaching, as you said, it's just advice... and not really much more than a suggestion, rather than advice. The obvious question is that, if this is the level of teaching you can apply, what benefit is it for people to train at your gym? I understand the desire for sparring partners, but without a coach (who knows what to watch for, and how to develop skills in other people, particular to the context), it's still very limited in terms of benefits. I mean, I have some senior students who get together to train outside of class, and they often ask for some advice on what they should do, and how they should structure the sessions... yet, despite them (in cases) having near onto a decade of experience, they aren't in a position to have anyone there as a "teacher"... and still manage to go off the rails every now and then. Luckily, they have guidance, and can be pulled back in the right direction.

Now, this next part I'm going to break down... as it needs some clarification, and correction.



martial sparrer said:


> chris, I think with a particular traditional martial art you MUST take classes...because there is a history,tradition,culture, set of values etc. that should be and must be adhered too...otherwise it isn't the martial art, it is something else........am I correct here?



No, not quite.

To begin with, any and all martial arts require classes/a teacher. The history/tradition side of things are part of it, but the degree varies wildly. Basically, the reason you need a teacher, and classes, is that that's the only way to learn. You need to be watched and guided by someone who already knows the way things are supposed to be done. Books and videos can't correct you, and, more importantly, can't point out what is your imaginings about the way you think something is done, versus the way they actually are. And that is far more common than you might think. Additionally, there isn't just one way of doing things... and each art will have it's own preference, with it's own reasons. Without being guided through the methods of a particular art, how do you know that you're actually doing things the way they should, rather than just random collections of (potentially) contradictory and incompatible methodologies? How do you know that you're not missing the important aspects? 

I'll put it this way: Can you describe the main aspects of your martial art(s)? Can you describe the power source, and differentiate it from other methods? Do you know the primary strategies and tactics, and why they are chosen for that system? How about the striking approach... why are certain strikes or kicks used, but not others? 

Something that might interest you to learn is that the term "sensei" literally refers to "someone who has come before"... meaning that a teacher is someone who has experience in what they're teaching you... and has already learnt the system.



martial sparrer said:


> in mma there is not so much of a history and culture, so you can dabble and mix and match what works for you.....



Do you really think there isn't a culture for MMA? There really is. And the idea of being able to "dabble and mix and match" is also rather inaccurate... MMA, today, really is it's own system, which is more a training and testing/competing methodology than a strict curriculum of techniques. And that methodology is what makes it MMA, rather than techniques, for the record. As a result, you need an MMA coach, someone who understands the culture of MMA, it's context, what works in it's context, the development of the art, and so on. In other words, someone who already knows what MMA is, and can teach you. It's not just throwing things together that you think work... as the immediate question is "works for what?".



martial sparrer said:


> people think bruce lee was the father of mma because he said study lots, reject what is not useful, keep what is, make it all yur own.



Yeah... Dana was really incredibly wrong when he said that, and has been made to eat those words on forums ever since. Bruce was the father of Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do (well, and Brandon and Shannon... but I don't think that's where we were going...), not MMA. To look to the history of MMA, you need to look to Vale Tudo events, as well as similar events in Japan, prior to the original UFC. Even the original UFC, although that's where we get the term from, isn't really the origin of MMA (as it is today). There are certain elements that do trace back to that, but the real origin was in the take over (by Dana White) of the company, and it's re-birth seeking legitimacy as a sport. Hmm, history and culture... 

As far as the quote of Bruce's (adopt was is useful, reject what is not), that's not really what MMA is about either. MMA is about training for success in MMA competition... which is a multi-ranged combat sport. There are certain restrictions, which make some very useful things unable (or unfeasible) to be adopted, as you can only ever look to adopting things that are useful for the context you're addressing. Oh, and while Bruce may have enjoyed MMA as a sport, the very idea of it being a sport really goes against the ideas that Bruce was aiming for with his approach, so to think that his words support the idea of him as the "father of MMA" is to not understand either (yeah, Dana, I'm looking at you...)



martial sparrer said:


> the "Way" comes from book of five rings where the way is when you don't think in martial arts its all one with you.....which you talked about in your post.



Hmm. Look, I'm going to be gentle here, and say that talking to me about the Gorin no Sho is, well, let's just say you're out of your depth here.

What should be understood about Musashi's use of the term "the way" is that it's not something he came up with, and is highly influenced by his studies of buddhism, and that the way he was using the phrase was very much a way of expressing his own thoughts of his approach to martial arts. And I'm not sure you understood what I was saying earlier.... 



martial sparrer said:


> you know what I don't mind getting told I am wrong....what I have read and studied in my 5 years has help me tremendously with teaching, raising children, dealing with people....and yes...problem solving!



Ha, good! Glad you don't mind being told you're wrong... It's a major part of learning.... and I'm glad you have gotten some benefit from your reading... but it shouldn't be mistaken for actually studying martial arts (yet).



martial sparrer said:


> I hope I can learn about martial arts for the rest of my life....



Cool. I'd suggest starting by learning one.


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## martial sparrer

your a great teacher chris, I am assuming you must be an instructor.  you have greatly allowed me to understand what it means to study a martial art vs mixed martial arts. you have allowed me to admire and respect this whole martial arts umbrella even more. I will continue on.


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## Gnarlie

http://real-self-defense.com/unbreakable-umbrella/

Gnarlie


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Gnarlie said:


> http://real-self-defense.com/unbreakable-umbrella/
> 
> Gnarlie


Do you have on/can attest t its durability? Cause if so, that is friggin useful!!


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## Gnarlie

kempodisciple said:


> Do you have on/can attest t its durability? Cause if so, that is friggin useful!!



Sadly not, but I bet someone here has bought one!

Gnarlie


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## rframe

What on earth does that have to do with the topic?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Gnarlie said:


> Sadly not, but I bet someone here has bought one!
> 
> Gnarlie


Bueller? Bueller?


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## Gnarlie

rframe said:


> What on earth does that have to do with the topic?





martial sparrer said:


> you have allowed me to admire and respect this whole martial arts umbrella even more. I will continue on.



Ok, from this point forth, only discussion of the metaphorical martial arts umbrella. Literal martial arts umbrellas will have to have their own thread.

Gnarlie


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## Chris Parker

martial sparrer said:


> your a great teacher chris, I am assuming you must be an instructor.  you have greatly allowed me to understand what it means to study a martial art vs mixed martial arts. you have allowed me to admire and respect this whole martial arts umbrella even more. I will continue on.



Hmm, I feel that perhaps you're still missing a fair bit of what I'm saying, though. For example, mixed martial arts (MMA) is a form of martial art... so studying a martial art and studying MMA are really the same, just different approaches. Like studying Kendo or Wing Chun... both are martial arts, but different approaches.


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## martial sparrer

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm, I feel that perhaps you're still missing a fair bit of what I'm saying, though. For example, mixed martial arts (MMA) is a form of martial art... so studying a martial art and studying MMA are really the same, just different approaches. Like studying Kendo or Wing Chun... both are martial arts, but different approaches.


You kmow what chris....I think your last quote is how I feel.....if I lived in australia, quite framkly I would come and train and fight you.....your an attacker of ideas but I respect that!


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## Chris Parker

Tonality isn't easy to convey via the written word, so I'm not entirely sure how to take what you're writing... it could be read as being rather sarcastic, or it could be genuine, and simply phrased a little awkwardly... making the assumption it's the second one, I'll clarify why I said you might not quite get what I'm saying. You still separated "learning a martial art" from "learning mixed martial arts", which isn't really correct (MMA being a martial art itself). There's a fair bit more, including the lack of answers to any of the questions I've posed (which are really for me to determine just what your understanding is, so that I can see how to best answer your posts), but I'll leave that for now. The idea of you coming here to train is fine... but coming to "fight me", well, that's not a good plan. We don't spar in my system, for very good reasons (I don't consider it realistic in the slightest, particularly in the context we deal with), so if you were to come to "fight", you'd find that it'd get pretty real pretty quick... so I'll take that as thinking you'd come and "spar"... And, for the record, I'm not an attacker of ideas. I am, however, concerned with correcting misunderstandings... and, due to a real lack of experience and education, you have a fair bit of that. None of my posts have been attacks towards yourself, or even your ideas, but corrections to them, so you can see why your ideas aren't reality.


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## MJS

martial sparrer said:


> I have been studying mma for 5 years now.  the mma that I have been studying is of course a mixture of: karate, muay thai, boxing, jeet kune do etc.   so now I am sparring with opponents, and presently I have found that I need a step up in sparring opponents.   I am very interested in joining a non-mma dojo to learn a traditional martial art.  I feel like if I do though I will be starting at zero and learning a whole bunch of stuff that I already know and can apply - for example karate, well I have been practicing a whole range of kicks for 5 years.  taekwondo, same thing, wing chin, I have done lots of boxing, kenpo - the instructor told me its like boxing with some kicks, and I wont be sparring until 6 months in.  now Im kinda discouraged.  IS MY THINKING WRONG HERE  thanks rocco.



If its something you want to try, give it a shot.  If you don't like the traditional training, nothing says you have to stay.  One thing you will see, is the similarity in things.  For example, chances are you'll see similar kicks, punches, etc, however, the application will most likely be different.  

As for Kenpo being similar to boxing..if I was reading that right...well, IMO, after 20+yrs in Kenpo, I wouldn't say its like boxing with kicks.  I transitioned from Kenpo to Kyokushin and while I'm doing alot of the same strikes and kicks, the application is very different.


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## martial sparrer

Chris Parker said:


> Tonality isn't easy to convey via the written word, so I'm not entirely sure how to take what you're writing... it could be read as being rather sarcastic, or it could be genuine, and simply phrased a little awkwardly... making the assumption it's the second one, I'll clarify why I said you might not quite get what I'm saying. You still separated "learning a martial art" from "learning mixed martial arts", which isn't really correct (MMA being a martial art itself). There's a fair bit more, including the lack of answers to any of the questions I've posed (which are really for me to determine just what your understanding is, so that I can see how to best answer your posts), but I'll leave that for now. The idea of you coming here to train is fine... but coming to "fight me", well, that's not a good plan. We don't spar in my system, for very good reasons (I don't consider it realistic in the slightest, particularly in the context we deal with), so if you were to come to "fight", you'd find that it'd get pretty real pretty quick... so I'll take that as thinking you'd come and "spar"... And, for the record, I'm not an attacker of ideas. I am, however, concerned with correcting misunderstandings... and, due to a real lack of experience and education, you have a fair bit of that. None of my posts have been attacks towards yourself, or even your ideas, but corrections to them, so you can see why your ideas aren't reality.


I would come and join your school if I was  closer....thats what I meant....if I have learned anything ninjutsu is life and death apllication, survival....so sparring would be painful!


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## martial sparrer

[Qthe kenpo instructor also does samurai sword cutting techniques.....forgot the name of it....sounds interesting....UOTE=MJS;1563390]If its something you want to try, give it a shot.  If you don't like the traditional training, nothing says you have to stay.  One thing you will see, is the similarity in things.  For example, chances are you'll see similar kicks, punches, etc, however, the application will most likely be different.  

As for Kenpo being similar to boxing..if I was reading that right...well, IMO, after 20+yrs in Kenpo, I wouldn't say its like boxing with kicks.  I transitioned from Kenpo to Kyokushin and while I'm doing alot of the same strikes and kicks, the application is very different.[/QUOTE]


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## Chris Parker

martial sparrer said:


> I would come and join your school if I was  closer....thats what I meant....if I have learned anything ninjutsu is life and death apllication, survival....so sparring would be painful!



No, that's not really the point... just regular (non-sparring) training is painful as it is, so that's not the reason for not sparring. It's that sparring is unrealistic, and directly counter to the skills we wish to develop and tactics we wish to employ.



martial sparrer said:


> the kenpo instructor also does samurai sword cutting techniques.....forgot the name of it....sounds interesting....



Not sure of the relevance... but, so you know, if a sword practitioner hears of a karate instructor (Kenpo here being a form of karate) teaching swordsmanship, we tend to get a cold shiver down our spines... it's rarely a good thing...


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## martial sparrer

hmmm.....so the kenpo guy told me that kenpo is like wing chun with kicks....and the wing chun instructor told me that wing chun has no kicks but only hand strikes....karate has no swordsmanship in it does it?  on a side note, im a bit of a weapons collector, and I got a nice double sword sheath that goes on your back.....think I will go to the kenpo guy with new swords holder and see what he says!  not....


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## mook jong man

martial sparrer said:


> _*hmmm.....so the kenpo guy told me that kenpo is like wing chun with kicks....and the wing chun instructor told me that wing chun has no kicks but only hand strikes.*_...karate has no swordsmanship in it does it?  on a side note, im a bit of a weapons collector, and I got a nice double sword sheath that goes on your back.....think I will go to the kenpo guy with new swords holder and see what he says!  not....



Other than them being both martial arts there is no similarity at all.

Hmmm , a Wing Chun instructor that says Wing Chun has no kicks.
Where did he get his qualifications from? , a corn flakes packet.

Wing Chun has just as many kicks as any other martial art , it's just that usually the hands are more than sufficient to do the job so they aren't always needed.
But if the opportunity presents itself then you can rest assured a low kick will find its mark.

In the old days in the traditional Wing Chun kwoons , kicking was not taught until the student had completed about four years of training.
The reason being that the stance and balance had to be developed to a sufficient level before attempting to use kicks in a real fight , as kicking can put the novice practitioners balance at risk.


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## Chris Parker

Oh boy.... 

I don't want to come down hard on anything here, but this whole thing is, well, bad.



martial sparrer said:


> hmmm.....so the kenpo guy told me that kenpo is like wing chun with kicks....and the wing chun instructor told me that wing chun has no kicks but only hand strikes....karate has no swordsmanship in it does it?  on a side note, im a bit of a weapons collector, and I got a nice double sword sheath that goes on your back.....think I will go to the kenpo guy with new swords holder and see what he says!  not....



Right, the idea of Kenpo being like Wing Chun with kicks, or (as you mentioned earlier) boxing with kicks, is not any real indication of the arts mentioned at all (Wing Chun or boxing), or any real similarity between them and Kenpo. What the instructor is saying is that Kenpo is a hands-oriented system (as both Wing Chun and boxing are), but with a higher focus on kicks in addition. The use of the other arts for comparison is an attempt to simplify the idea of what Kenpo is, but I feel just makes it more inaccurate.

Wing Chun has no kicks.... really? It doesn't do a lot of kicking, as it's preferred range is hands-range or closer (getting into trapping), but there most certainly are kicks found in the system. Mostly low-line, and always very direct, as well as to very powerful targets, but it definitely has them.

No, karate has no sword in it. Most karate instructors who "teach" sword are essentially making it up, or emptily (and incorrectly) copying something they've stolen, such as Seitei Iai, or some Kenjutsu Ryu-ha's kata, with only a very few having any grounding in the use of the weapon. And, if they do have such a grounding, it has not come from karate, and would need to have been learnt outside of that system.

"Double sword sheath that goes on your back"? Hmm... if it's for Japanese swords, it's not really correct (that's me being gentle here...). I have seen some Chinese-style blades worn that way, but incredibly rarely. Realistically, it's movie-style fantasy wear, and nothing to do with real weaponry or usage at all. So you know.


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