# The Roots of MMA & Potential Link to Wing Chun



## Nobody Important (Jul 6, 2017)

Here's an interesting article on Old Style Boxing as it was prior to later rule sets & use of mufflers.

James Figg: The Lost Origins of the Sport of Mixed Martial Arts

Some suggest that this method was what also inspired the Chinese to create Wing Chun. 

Regardless of belief, it's hard to deny the similarities. Cudgel, sword & fisticuffs ( that included, wrasslin, hurling, gouging & purring). 

Naive, IMO, to think that Western martial arts were lacking sophisticated techniques & theory and that it didn't, in any way, potentially influence Asian martial arts. There are abundant old accounts of matches between east and west during the time of colonialism. Interesting stuff, no matter what you believe.


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## KPM (Jul 6, 2017)

^^^^^   Here is an oldie but goodie!  Of course, I don't believe any of it!

Black Belt


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## Charlemagne (Jul 6, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Here's an interesting article on Old Style Boxing as it was prior to later rule sets & use of mufflers.
> 
> James Figg: The Lost Origins of the Sport of Mixed Martial Arts
> 
> Some suggest that this method was what also inspired the Chinese to create Wing Chun.



Interesting article for sure. Where is the potential link to Wing Chun?  I saw nothing in there about that, and am having a hard time seeing how a fighting competition which was based upon swords, striking and grappling, and cudgels led to Wing Chun.


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## Nobody Important (Jul 6, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> Interesting article for sure. Where is the potential link to Wing Chun?  I saw nothing in there about that, and am having a hard time seeing how a fighting competition which was based upon swords, striking and grappling, and cudgels led to Wing Chun.


I'm not saying there is, and the article doesn't refer to it. There is a prominent theory out there that WB influenced WC, I don't know, but thought it interesting that boxing at one time included the practice of staff, sword, kicking & grappling, a format similar to Wing Chun. So I can see how the parallels could be drawn. Something to ponder.


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## Charlemagne (Jul 6, 2017)

I'm really not seeing that.


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## Nobody Important (Jul 6, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> I'm really not seeing that.


Some will, some won't.


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## Charlemagne (Jul 6, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Some will, some won't.




Going back to your original post, it sounds like the _some_ in the "Some suggest that this method was what also inspired the Chinese to create Wing Chun" statement means _you_.


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## Nobody Important (Jul 6, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> Going back to your original post, it sounds like the _some_ in the "Some suggest that this method was what also inspired the Chinese to create Wing Chun" statement means _you_.


You can make all the implications you want about what I believe, that doesn't make it true. I've already stated "I don't  know". 

If you want more information regarding any possible link between WC & WB just simply Google it. Its not a theory I came up with, it has been around a long time. 

I found the similar weapons integration interesting, as well as, the use of kicking, throwing & grappling before standardized rules were introduced. Thought others might as well.


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## drop bear (Jul 6, 2017)

Prize fighting is a common concept that spans many different cultures.


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## Nobody Important (Jul 6, 2017)

Another interesting article.

Dojo Rat: Western Boxing Influence In Asian Martial Arts

And link to an old thread with some interesting  input.

Western Boxing's influence on Chinese Martial Arts


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## Charlemagne (Jul 7, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> You can make all the implications you want about what I believe, that doesn't make it true. I've already stated "I don't  know".
> 
> If you want more information regarding any possible link between WC & WB just simply Google it. Its not a theory I came up with, it has been around a long time.
> 
> I found the similar weapons integration interesting, as well as, the use of kicking, throwing & grappling before standardized rules were introduced. Thought others might as well.



I'm not talking about the relationship or lack thereof between WB and WC.  I've seen that claim before as well.  I'm talking about the article and the idea that seems to be your proposal (with no apparent evidence) that this Old Style Boxing, as described in the article you linked, led to the development of WC.


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## Nobody Important (Jul 7, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> I'm not talking about the relationship or lack thereof between WB and WC.  I've seen that claim before as well.  I'm talking about the article and the idea that seems to be your proposal (with no apparent evidence) that this Old Style Boxing, as described in the article you linked, led to the development of WC.


In a previous comment to you I stated

" I'm not saying there is, and the article doesn't refer to it".

I have linked other articles that talk about boxing's influence on CMA, KPM did as well. Some of those articles discuss boxing's influence on WC. My statement of "& Potential Link to Wing Chun" is drawn from the theory going around that WB did influence the creation of WC. Since you're familiar with the claim, I'd assume you can see the relevance of the article that discusses the makeup of old style boxing. 

I'm not making any claims as you so adamantly suggest, I'm just putting information out there to be discussed. 

Britain has been trading with China since the 1600s. It's not absurd to assume that Figg's Fighting may have been exposed to the Chinese & had an influence on the native fighting systems. Was there any cross pollination that led to the development or alteration of Wing Chun? I don't know, but I suppose it's plausible considering some the similarities of old style boxing & WC.

I'm sure with a little investigation you are capable of coming to your own conclusions.


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## karatejj (Jul 7, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Here's an interesting article on Old Style Boxing as it was prior to later rule sets & use of mufflers.
> 
> James Figg: The Lost Origins of the Sport of Mixed Martial Arts
> 
> ...



Hey man, thank for the read, but it i mostly fantasy andthe writer guessing about stuff he read on teh internet.

Its one of the fakest thinks I have seen, and thats sayin smthing


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## Knapf (Jul 7, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Britain has been trading with China since the 1600s. It's not absurd to assume that Figg's Fighting may have been exposed to the Chinese & had an influence on the native fighting systems. Was there any cross pollination that led to the development or alteration of Wing Chun? I don't know, but I suppose it's plausible considering some the similarities of old style boxing & WC.


I'm not going to say yes or no to the subject raised.  Just want to state that Chinese masters during those times take loyalty very seriously. Adding moves from other kung fu styles would have been looked upon as sacrilege. Not to say that there weren't grandmasters in the past who made  exceptions  and learned different kung fu styles and mix them up. But still... this is Western martial arts we are talking about.


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## KPM (Jul 7, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> Going back to your original post, it sounds like the _some_ in the "Some suggest that this method was what also inspired the Chinese to create Wing Chun" statement means _you_.



Uh...did you read the article that I posted a link to???


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## Charlemagne (Jul 7, 2017)

KPM said:


> Uh...did you read the article that I posted a link to???



No.


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## Nobody Important (Jul 7, 2017)

Knapf said:


> I'm not going to say yes or no to the subject raised.  Just want to state that Chinese masters during those times take loyalty very seriously. Adding moves from other kung fu styles would have been looked upon as sacrilege. Not to say that there weren't grandmasters in the past who made  exceptions  and learned different kung fu styles and mix them up. But still... this is Western martial arts we are talking about.


I don't put much stock into anything these days. As far as the loyalty back then, nearly nonexistent. Commercial martial arts schools didn't start popping up until late 1800s, loyalty only became an issue once money became involved. Many foreign methods were taught in China as foreigners invaded, and many practitioners mixed and matched systems.


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## Knapf (Jul 7, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> As far as the loyalty back then, nearly nonexistent.  Many foreign methods were taught in China as foreigners invaded, and many practitioners mixed and matched systems.


Huh? Loyalty was a strictly enforced tradition.Ask any Chinese. Southern Mantis teachers didn't like students coming in and showing Hung Ga moves. In this case the reprimand would have been more severe if they performed boxing moves during class.


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## KPM (Jul 7, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> No.



Post #2 on this thread.  I think the author of that article and his followers are the "some" that NI was referring to.


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 7, 2017)

there is no link to WC.  imagination at best.
the entire article forgets history before america even existed.

 
"_boxer at rest"
330 to 50 BCE_


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## Charlemagne (Jul 7, 2017)

KPM said:


> Post #2 on this thread.  I think the author of that article and his followers are the "some" that NI was referring to.



Thanks for the clarification.  Cheers,


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## Nobody Important (Jul 7, 2017)

Knapf said:


> Huh? Loyalty was a strictly enforced tradition.Ask any Chinese. Southern Mantis teachers didn't like students coming in and showing Hung Ga moves. In this case the reprimand would have been more severe if they performed boxing moves during class.


Maybe after 1911, but certainly not before. Prior to and shortly after the Boxer Rebellion the Zhong Yi, Jing Wu & Hong Men associations were teaching numerous styles side by side. These organization were responsible for popularizing the martial arts and from them came many new systems, all through exchange.


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## Nobody Important (Jul 7, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> there is no link to WC.  imagination at best.
> the entire article forgets history before america even existed.
> View attachment 20871
> "_boxer at rest"
> 330 to 50 BCE_


You may be right, but it's not implausible.  If Boxing came from Greece as historians suggest then it would have been known to Alexander the Great. He was known to have instructed his troops in Pankration. The legend of Vajramushti states it was created from a mix of Indian Kalaripayettu and Greek Pankration. The two cultures shared much, there is even a Greek form of Buddhism. Vajramushti is said to be the system that was taught to the Chinese when Buddhism was introduced. Supposedly this was a major influence on the development of Shaolin martial arts, if so, then that's one possible link. Is it true? Who knows and it doesn't really matter but is interesting nonetheless.


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## Nobody Important (Jul 7, 2017)

Fun Wikipedia article on Boxing in China.

Boxing in China - Wikipedia


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## Martial D (Jul 7, 2017)

It's only logical. Students of combat are more likely than others to study and draw from past students of combat. It's all interrelated to various degrees, and I would imagine chasing all those links down would be impossible without an ouiji board or a sayonce.


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## Juany118 (Jul 7, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Here's an interesting article on Old Style Boxing as it was prior to later rule sets & use of mufflers.
> 
> James Figg: The Lost Origins of the Sport of Mixed Martial Arts
> 
> ...




True but one has to be careful, when speaking about different cultures coming into contact with one another, that one does not fall into the mental trap born of the "white man's burden."  

Also one has to look at the culture of China during that period.  The Nation which was once arguably the most innovative in the world had gone unchanged for centuries because of a sense of cultural superiority and then the more technologically advanced West coming in and forcing the doors of trade open at the point of a gun created what could have only been called rampant Xenophobia.  Heck YM himself reportedly had misgivings of teaching Bruce Lee because he was only half Chinese and he only wore a suit for his Hong Kong ID card picture, which he had to borrow from a student because he had much disdain for the West.

So even though the contact occurred, it is as much a leap to say Western methods were adopted as it is to categorically say they were not adopted.


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## Nobody Important (Jul 7, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> True but one has to be careful, when speaking about different cultures coming into contact with one another, that one does not fall into the mental trap born of the "white man's burden."
> 
> Also one has to look at the culture of China during that period.  The Nation which was once arguably the most innovative in the world had gone unchanged for centuries because of a sense of cultural superiority and then the more technologically advanced West coming in and forcing the doors of trade open at the point of a gun created what could have only been called rampant Xenophobia.  Heck YM himself reportedly had misgivings of teaching Bruce Lee because he was only half Chinese and he only wore a suit for his Hong Kong ID card picture, which he had to borrow from a student because he had much disdain for the West.
> 
> So even though the contact occurred, it is as much a leap to say Western methods were adopted as it is to categorically say they were not adopted.


You have a valid point, and it is something that still exists today. However,  I would surmise that prior to things turning sour before the Boxer Rebellion there was a fair amount of consensual cultural exchange. Many Chinese went to England in the early days of contact, hard to say what aspects of English culture they brought back with them. 

Then there is the Japanese. Jigoro Kano exploited the opening of Japan to the west to promote Judo. There are many accounts of western sailors having boxing & wrestling matches with  Japanese fighters. I'm sure their was some exchanging of methods going on, naive to think the Chinese didn't do the same.

Of course it's all speculation and conjecture, none of it can be proven, but interesting to ponder nonetheless.


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## karatejj (Jul 7, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> there is no link to WC.  imagination at best.
> the entire article forgets history before america even existed.
> View attachment 20871
> "_boxer at rest"
> 330 to 50 BCE_



Truth!

Its just people seeing smthing that looks a bit the same, but no understand of how it works! All surface level knowlege if u think this is deep theory


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## karatejj (Jul 7, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Then there is the Japanese. Jigoro Kano exploited the opening of Japan to the west to promote Judo. There are many accounts of western sailors having boxing & wrestling matches with  Japanese fighters. I'm sure their was some exchanging of methods going on, naive to think the Chinese didn't do the same.
> 
> Of course it's all speculation and conjecture, none of it can be proven, but interesting to ponder nonetheless.



Sound like standard catch wrestling inferior complex guys always showing on mma boards back in 2003, lol

Most people gru out of that tho...


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## Nobody Important (Jul 7, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Sound like standard catch wrestling inferior complex guys always showing on mma boards back in 2003, lol
> 
> Most people gru out of that tho...


Plenty of historical accounts are available of such interaction, investigate for yourself if you would like to know more. 

I'm not making any claims, just putting  some information out there about western martial arts having an impact on eastern methods.

Here's another article

Espada y Daga: Western Fencing’s Foremost Influence on the FMA


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## karatejj (Jul 7, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Plenty of historical accounts are available of such interaction, investigate for yourself if you would like to know more.
> 
> I'm not making any claims, just putting  some information out there about western martial arts having an impact on eastern methods.
> 
> ...



Lol biased opinion off the net from angry loozers is not info

Im not a lover of rolling on teh floor wrestling guys, but pretty obvius that catch wrestling is just a hobby horse for buthurt sad old guys


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## Nobody Important (Jul 7, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Lol biased opinion off the net from angry loozers is not info
> 
> Im not a lover of rolling on teh floor wrestling guys, but pretty obvius that catch wrestling is just a hobby horse for buthurt sad old guys


Catch as Catch Can wrestling has a long history, one based off of traditional methods like Lancanshire, Westmoreland & Devonshire, and it had a profound influence on bothJapanese & American pro wrestling. As to its efficacy, I don't know. It's something that has a complex evolution.

Anyways, not really the point of this thread. Seems you're the only one getting butthurt and insisting that Western culture has had absolutely no effect on Eastern culture, even though they have embraced nearly every aspect of Western society with open arms.


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## Juany118 (Jul 7, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Plenty of historical accounts are available of such interaction, investigate for yourself if you would like to know more.
> 
> I'm not making any claims, just putting  some information out there about western martial arts having an impact on eastern methods.
> 
> ...



I don't think northern FMA (the south is tied closer to Silat methods is the same though.  There are two working theories as to how Espada y Daga.  Your article sorta touches on them.  However I would say that the idea that it came down from Filipino "nobles" being taught fencing at a Spanish School is not accurate.  FMA has always be a very "common" art.  So common actually that some people in the Philippines complain how foreign arts are more popular and how the greatest FMA master's are typically poor and to overcome the poverty they actually had to go outside the country.  I once heard it described as "Tae Kwon Do and Boxing are taught in modern air conditioned buildings, FMA is taught in back yard and parks because there is a prejudice in the culture that the foreign arts are 'better'."

As for the things that were close...

1. That the Spanish colonial power actively taught the technique to help the locals aid them in fighting off Pirates from Mindanao.
2. That it was adapted simply by fighting against the Spanish.  Espada y Daga wasn't strictly limited to rapier fencing of the late 16th century onward.  In "old" Spanish sword, they taught using sword and buckler as well as sword and dagger.  This eventually became called simply esgrima (aka fencing, swordsmanship), esgrima antigua ( old fencing), esgrima vulgar (vulgar fencing.). The fencing the expert in your article seems to reference is what is sometimes called "true fencing".  The authors who wrote of this at the end of the 16th century referred to it as last verdadera destreza (or true skill)

I find the first one a bit off because the Spanish passed laws against the Filipinos practicing FMA.  

So the next possible option is simply the Filipino people studying their colonial master's methods and gaining inspiration.  While the use of a sword and dagger together seems is more similar to esgrima antigua while there is a notable difference.  First the purpose of the weapons is reversed.  In European swordsmanship the dagger is used most often to parry and, if designed to do so for "true" fencing, to trap or even break/bend the opponents blade, the sword to attack.  In Espada y Daga the roles are reversed because Filipino knives weren't designed with the large guards necessary to make them a good defensive weapon.  

Even accounting for this difference though the method would actually be related to the swordsmanship of soldiers of the period.  There are two books I know of (but have never read) regarding esgrima antigua that were written in 1474.  Here is a link referencing one, sadly they are lost to history... Pedro de la Torre ~ Wiktenauer ~☞ Insquequo omnes gratuiti fiunt

What is my point here?  That there is a difference between a centuries long insurgency adopting methods of their conquerors vs the dynamic that existed in China.  Again I am not saying that it didn't happen, I just don't think FMA and CMA are apples to apples comparison here.


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## Nobody Important (Jul 7, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> I don't think northern FMA (the south is tied closer to Silat methods is the same though.  There are two working theories as to how Espada y Daga.  Your article sorta touches on them.  However I would say that the idea that it came down from Filipino "nobles" being taught fencing at a Spanish School is not accurate.  FMA has always be a very "common" art.  So common actually that some people in the Philippines complain how foreign arts are more popular and how the greatest FMA master's are typically poor and to overcome the poverty they actually had to go outside the country.  I once heard it described as "Tae Kwon Do and Boxing are taught in modern air conditioned buildings, FMA is taught in back yard and parks because there is a prejudice in the culture that the foreign arts are 'better'."
> 
> As for the things that were close...
> 
> ...


I don't practice FMA and don't know much about the history. There is one undeniable fact though, the Moderization of Asia. Western culture has influenced the political structures, industries, militaries, religions, customs, philosophies, foods, sciences and arts of all Asian cultures to one extent or another, in some cases to extreme measures. Whether this is good or bad is irrelevant, it simply goes to show that Western culture's impact on Asian culture is more significant than vice versa. To assume that all other aspects of Asian culture have been impacted except martial arts is rediculous.


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## KPM (Jul 7, 2017)

^^^^Watch out man!  You're talking common sense!  And, as we've recently discovered here in other threads....common sense isn't always "common."


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## Nobody Important (Jul 7, 2017)

Interesting essay on Western society's impact on Japan & China, a big part of which was caused by the vast differences in the military.

China and Japan's Responses to the West in the 19th Century


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## Juany118 (Jul 7, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> I don't practice FMA and don't know much about the history. There is one undeniable fact though, the Moderization of Asia. Western culture has influenced the political structures, industrialization, religions, customs, philosophies, foods, sciences and arts of all Asian cultures to one extent or another, in some cases to extreme measures. Whether this is good or bad is irrelevant, it simply goes to show that Western culture's impact on Asian culture is more significant than vice versa. To assume that all other aspects of Asian culture have been impacted except martial arts is rediculous.



All agreed there's a lot of influence but sometimes the influence can be the opposite of what one might think.  I have actually been talking about this, in a non-issue arts context.  My girlfriend has a Master's in Anthropology and ran an NGOs mission in East Africa for about a decade.  She pointed out to me that there are three general ways the influence of a "colonial" or militarily victorious culture effects other cultures. 

1.You can have them adopt cultural elements of the "new"
2. double down on their native culture
3. a combination of the two. 

Which is actually at play takes a fair amount of work of the type that paid for her graduate school then and banked more to pay for the new Master's.  Dang woman loves school more than work lol.

Point being in terms of martial arts you can't just use appearance because as usual biomechanics is biomechanics. You really need to get down into the detailed academic work and that kind of research is time-consuming as all hell.


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## Tez3 (Jul 7, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Lol biased opinion off the net from angry loozers is not info
> 
> Im not a lover of rolling on teh floor wrestling guys, but pretty obvius that catch wrestling is just a hobby horse for buthurt sad old guys



Is English your first language or can you be childish in other languages as well?


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## karatejj (Jul 7, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Catch as Catch Can wrestling has a long history, one based off of traditional methods like Lancanshire, Westmoreland & Devonshire, and it had a profound influence on bothJapanese & American pro wrestling. As to its efficacy, I don't know. It's something that has a complex evolution.



Its fake! Like pro wrasslin



> Anyways, not really the point of this thread. Seems you're the only one getting butthurt and insisting that Western culture has had absolutely no effect on Eastern culture, even though they have embraced nearly every aspect of Western society with open arms.



Just sayin that idea boxing an wing chun are related is based off basic similar look of old days boxin to WC. Not any real info. Just guyz hopin for smthing they can feel big-hed and look down on otherz. 

It not history document, just guyz writin what tey feel and hope. Therez a guy does some history on WC but forgot his name now. You will need ur readin glasses tho, lol


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## Nobody Important (Jul 7, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Its fake! Like pro wrasslin
> 
> 
> Just sayin that idea boxing an wing chun are related is based off basic similar look of old days boxin to WC. Not any real info. Just guyz hopin for smthing they can feel big-hed and look down on otherz.
> ...


It has a checkered past, especially during the era it was competing with boxing for a fan base. I wouldn't call guys like Frank Gotch fake though.

Here an article on the history of Catch Wrestling.

History of Catch Wrestling | SnakePit USA Catch as Catch Can

These methods, along with the French created Greco-Roman method are what later became part of the high school and college wrestling pantheon. The method cannot solely be judged by the offshoot entertainment faction.

As for the rest of your comment, I do not believe that the world is flat, that the Sun revolves around the Earth, that evolution is a complete myth, that religion is truth or that societies have never been conquered or interacted with one another, sharing ideas, throughout the entirety of human history.

Feel free to believe that everything was created spontaneously out of a vacuum.  I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm sure you can form your own conclusions, I'm just presenting information to invoke thought and create talking points. Do with it what you like.


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## Tez3 (Jul 7, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Its fake! Like pro wrasslin
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's in the rules here that you write English not whatever you are writing.

Catch wrestling isn't fake at all by the way. It's been practised for a long time in the north of England.

There are good scientific reasons to believe  the Greeks and the Chinese had contact with each other, this shows in statues, pottery and other artifacts, there's no reason to believe that this was the only thing the Greeks shared with the Chinese and vice versa. Terracotta Warriors Inspired by Ancient Greek Art


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## Knapf (Jul 7, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Maybe after 1911, but certainly not before. Prior to and shortly after the Boxer Rebellion the Zhong Yi, Jing Wu & Hong Men associations were teaching numerous styles side by side. These organization were responsible for popularizing the martial arts and from them came many new systems, all through exchange.


Jing Wu isn't a good example to use. They wanted to promote the mixing of Chinese martial arts with the hope that Chinese martial arts can be improved,spread all across China and so they could hold their own against Japanese and Western martial arts.


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## Nobody Important (Jul 7, 2017)

Knapf said:


> Jing Wu isn't a good example to use. They wanted to promote the mixing of Chinese martial arts with the hope that Chinese martial arts can be improved,spread all across China and so they could hold their own against Japanese and Western martial arts.


That was exactly the reason for the post. To show that there wasn't this strict unwritten code that two or more styles of CMA couldn't intermingle. They could & did, so the post was a good example & appropriate. You're quoting me out of context by assuming that post was specifically about boxing mixing with CMA, it wasn't. It was about there not being a strict policy about mixing systems of CMA.


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## Juany118 (Jul 7, 2017)

Knapf said:


> Jing Wu isn't a good example to use. They wanted to promote the mixing of Chinese martial arts with the hope that Chinese martial arts can be improved,spread all across China and so they could hold their own against Japanese and Western martial arts.


It was also, so far as I understand, more so an organization that was set up in response to the Occupation of certain parts of China by foreign power and the social change they were bringing. 

Up to that point Martial Arts teaching in China was largely secretive but their hope was that in having the school teaching the Martial Arts openly would preserve the "proper" Chinese Traditions that the Martial arts were a part of in the face of the change the existing secrecy and social change the turn of the century and occupation was bringing.  They basically thought that these two dynamics would result in a slow death of traditional Chinese martial arts


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## Knapf (Jul 7, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> That was exactly the reason for the post. To show that there wasn't this strict unwritten code that two or more styles of CMA couldn't intermingle.


Are we even disagreeing?



> They could & did, so the post was a good example & appropriate. You're quoting me out of context by assuming that post was specifically about boxing mixing with CMA, it wasn't. It was about there not being a strict policy about mixing systems of CMA.


You're forgetting that that no matter what,they are still strictly *CMA *so they still could mix or as you say "intermingle" according to that current society's way of thinking.


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## Nobody Important (Jul 7, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> It was also, so far as I understand, more so an organization that was set up in response to the Occupation of certain parts of China by foreign power and the social change they were bringing.
> 
> Up to that point Martial Arts teaching in China was largely secretive but their hope was that in having the school teaching the Martial Arts openly would preserve the "proper" Chinese Traditions that the Martial arts were a part of in the face of the change the existing secrecy and social change the turn of the century and occupation was bringing.  They basically thought that these two dynamics would result in a slow death of traditional Chinese martial arts



While true, it still isn't what the post was addressing. My post was a response to this



Knapf said:


> I'm not going to say yes or no to the subject raised.  Just want to state that Chinese masters during those times take loyalty very seriously. Adding moves from other kung fu styles would have been looked upon as sacrilege. Not to say that there weren't grandmasters in the past who made  exceptions  and learned different kung fu styles and mix them up. But still... this is Western martial arts we are talking about.



Jing Wu mixed styles, the reason isn't as important compared to the fact that it happened. The response was to show it did happen and no one lost a head for doing it.

Trying to spin context to the inclusion of WMA to support an entrenched belief that CMA styles couldn't mix because "Sifu wouldn't allow it" doesn't support the false narrative. It wasn't part of that separate conversation.


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## Nobody Important (Jul 7, 2017)

Knapf said:


> Are we even disagreeing?
> 
> 
> You're forgetting that that no matter what,they are still strictly *CMA *so they still could mix or as you say "intermingle" according to that current society's way of thinking.


You said they couldn't. I showed they did.


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## Knapf (Jul 7, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> You said they couldn't. I showed they did.


I didn't say that. Check back my original post


> Adding moves from other kung fu styles would have been looked upon as sacrilege. Not to say that there weren't grandmasters in the past who made exceptions and learned different kung fu styles and mix them up.


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## Nobody Important (Jul 7, 2017)

Knapf said:


> I didn't say that. Check back my original post


You implied it with the statement "that it was looked upon as sacrilege". Maybe I read too much into that, either way, it's resolved now, let's move on.


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## Juany118 (Jul 7, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> While true, it still isn't what the post was addressing. My post was a response to this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh I was only responding to him with the idea that it was some how to make Chinese martial art no more competitive for lack of better term. They believed, at least from what I've read, that there Arts were already competitive they just feared that they would die out due to the older tradition of secrecy.  I agree that the way in which they taught allowed for the melting of different CMAs


----------



## Nobody Important (Jul 7, 2017)

Here's an interesting article on Western Boxing in China. It has a starting point of 1920 as becoming very popular, not to say it wasn't known before then. Either way, seems the Chinese took a real shining to it.

The Rise of Boxing in China Part I: The Evolution


----------



## KPM (Jul 7, 2017)

^^^^ Its a shame western boxing didn't influence CMA's even more!


----------



## anerlich (Jul 8, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Lol biased opinion off the net from angry loozers is not info
> 
> Im not a lover of rolling on teh floor wrestling guys, but pretty obvius that catch wrestling is just a hobby horse for buthurt sad old guys



These butthurt sad old guys are laughing at you from the backs of their hobby horses:

Kazushi Sakuraba - Wikipedia
Josh Barnett - Wikipedia

Hopefully you'll sound a bit more sensible once you get through puberty.


----------



## Charlemagne (Jul 8, 2017)

anerlich said:


> These butthurt sad old guys are laughing at you from the backs of their hobby horses:
> 
> Kazushi Sakuraba - Wikipedia
> Josh Barnett - Wikipedia



As are Eric Paulson, Chris Crossan, and many others.


----------



## karatejj (Jul 13, 2017)

anerlich said:


> These butthurt sad old guys are laughing at you from the backs of their hobby horses:
> 
> Kazushi Sakuraba - Wikipedia
> Josh Barnett - Wikipedia
> ...



You are being unrealistic dude. 

If you want the ground wrestling, then best way to do it is with bjj. All this catch wrestlin stuff is for losers with something against bjj. Its like "look at me, I am doin catch wrestling, not is bjj. I am special."

Pathetic really. Someone like Sakuraba totally different thing because lives in japan where different influence. Josh Barnett = the only grudge bearing guy with something against bjj who was actually successful!!


----------



## anerlich (Jul 13, 2017)

karatejj said:


> You are being unrealistic dude.
> 
> If you want the ground wrestling, then best way to do it is with bjj. All this catch wrestlin stuff is for losers with something against bjj. Its like "look at me, I am doin catch wrestling, not is bjj. I am special."
> 
> Pathetic really. Someone like Sakuraba totally different thing because lives in japan where different influence. Josh Barnett = the only grudge bearing guy with something against bjj who was actually successful!!



*Facepalm*

Ummmm ... where to start .... I have a black belt first degree in BJJ. Got my black in 2013.

I think I've got this particular subject covered.


----------



## karatejj (Jul 13, 2017)

anerlich said:


> Ummmm ... where to start .... I have a black belt first degree in BJJ. Got my black in 2013.



Well done. Not sure you know more about catch wrestling than anyone else tho- is mostly made up thing for people with hate chip on their shoulder against bjj.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 13, 2017)

karatejj said:


> You are being unrealistic dude.
> 
> If you want the ground wrestling, then best way to do it is with bjj. All this catch wrestlin stuff is for losers with something against bjj. Its like "look at me, I am doin catch wrestling, not is bjj. I am special."
> 
> Pathetic really. Someone like Sakuraba totally different thing because lives in japan where different influence. Josh Barnett = the only grudge bearing guy with something against bjj who was actually successful!!


Sort of. If you were to do MMA wrestling plays a big part because of the better positions to punch from.


----------



## karatejj (Jul 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Sort of. If you were to do MMA wrestling plays a big part.



Actual wrestling not catch wrestling. Legit approach!


----------



## anerlich (Jul 13, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Well done. Not sure you know more about catch wrestling than anyone else tho- is mostly made up thing for people with hate chip on their shoulder against bjj.



I'm very confident I know way more about catch wrestling than you.


----------



## karatejj (Jul 13, 2017)

anerlich said:


> I'm very confident I know way more about catch wrestling than you.



Ok Mr, its no great worry to me! Lol


----------



## Charlemagne (Jul 13, 2017)

karatejj said:


> You are being unrealistic dude.
> Its like "look at me, I am doin catch wrestling, not is bjj. I am special."



There are some with that attitude that I have seen, but I don't think it's most of them.  The guys in Erik Paulson's group that I have met and trained with have been very nice, humble guys, most of whom also do Jiujitsu.


----------



## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> There are some with that attitude that I have seen, but I don't think it's most of them.  The guys in Erik Paulson's group that I have met and trained with have been very nice, humble guys, most of whom also do Jiujitsu.



I did meet a few with that attitude myself!!


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 14, 2017)

karatejj said:


> All this catch wrestlin stuff is for losers with something against bjj. Its like "look at me, I am doin catch wrestling, not is bjj. I am special."





karatejj said:


> Well done. Not sure you know more about catch wrestling than anyone else tho- is mostly made up thing for people with hate chip on their shoulder against bjj.



You don't actually know what catch wrestling is do you?
The Snake Pit Wigan – Home of Catch-as-Catch-Can Wrestling | www.snakepitwigan.com


----------



## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> You don't actually know what catch wrestling is do you?
> The Snake Pit Wigan – Home of Catch-as-Catch-Can Wrestling | www.snakepitwigan.com



I sure do Sir! I can use nthe internet just like you!

Unless you are Josh Barnett and prepared to dedicate your life to finding alternative too bjj (while also training bjj, lol) then catch wrestling is fantasy land. I notice lots of bjj haters do it, and reason is because they hate the bjj and want to feel special with something different. No biggie.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 14, 2017)

karatejj said:


> I sure do Sir! I can use nthe internet just like you!



Two things. *One* I'm not a sir under any circumstances, I'm not male and I work for a living.
*Two*. I didn't use Google, I know the Snakepit guys and have sent my MMA fighters across the Pennines to train with them. A friend of mine who is now an instructor also used to train with them.

I will also add that catch wrestling is a style from the UK and is actually well known here, far more than BJJ. When you make these statements you don't understand that you are only voicing your opinion not facts.


----------



## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Two things. *One* I'm not a sir under any circumstances, I'm not male and I work for a living.
> *Two*. I didn't use Google, I know the Snakepit guys and have sent my MMA fighters across the Pennines to train with them. A friend of mine who is now an instructor also used to train with them.
> 
> I will also add that catch wrestling is a style from the UK and is actually well known here, far more than BJJ. When you make these statements you don't understand that you are only voicing your opinion not facts.



No catch wrestling is not more well known in UK than BJJ. That is just not true, lol.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 14, 2017)

Always interesting when you post some facts up and someone finds them 'funny'.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 14, 2017)

karatejj said:


> No catch wrestling is not more well known in UK than BJJ. That is just not true, lol.



Really and what makes you qualified to say that? considering we've had documentaries on the BBC, articles in the newspapers and have a lot of local clubs competing. There's been catch wrestling *for generations here* and BJJ is a relatively new thing so yes catch wrestling is more well known that BJJ here. Judo is also more well known here than BJJ.


----------



## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Always interesting when you post some facts up and someone finds them 'funny'.



It was the untrue bits I found funny, not the fact that "snakepit" exists in England


----------



## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Really and what makes you qualified to say that? considering we've had documentaries on the BBC, articles in the newspapers and have a lot of local clubs competing. There's been catch wrestling *for generations here* and BJJ is a relatively new thing so yes catch wrestling is more well known that BJJ here. Judo is also more well known here than BJJ.



 you are a funny guy

How many BJJ clubs and active people in UK? How many catch places and active catch wrestler??

Stop saying untrue things, looks not that clever.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 14, 2017)

karatejj said:


> you are a funny guy
> 
> How many BJJ clubs and active people in UK? How many catch places and active catch wrestler??
> 
> Stop saying untrue things, looks not that clever.



and you, my dear, are a troll.

*What basis do you have for calling me a liar?* I haven't said BJJ isn't popular, it's still fairly small here but getting bigger and better known. Catch wrestling ( Lancashire wrestling) has been around here for centuries, it's home grown and in the north of England where I am it was the big sport along with whippet racing for miners of which we used to have many. It's a pitman's sport so many know it from there. Other areas of the UK have their own styles of wrestling... Cornwall and Devon ( which is standup only) Cumberland, Scottish Backhold etc. all still reasonably popular. There's also Irish collar and elbow wrestling. These styles are still practised and there's competitions held around the country at places like County shows, Highland games etc as well as specific competitions.

People are very aware of Judo here it's been here since the 1890s at least, we have had Olympic Judoka do well and in the early days of martial arts in the UK was just about the only style you could do until the karateka arrived to teach karate. Catch and the other folk styles of course have been going for hundreds of years. BJJ didn't come to the UK until the early 2000s.

You seem to be the only one that has an issue with catch wrestling, and your propensity to be unpleasant and call people liars is a sign of your lack of knowledge. MMA is what it says it is, we take whatever techniques from whatever style and med it into our fighting style, somethings work better for some people, some things work really well, some don't work at all. Catch is one of many sources for the techniques fighters use, you don't like that, well I'm sorry that's just tough.
Don't call me a liar again, sweetie, it makes you look like a cockwomble.


----------



## Paul_D (Jul 14, 2017)

karatejj said:


> you are a funny guy


----------



## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> and you, my dear, are a troll.
> 
> *What basis do you have for calling me a liar?* I haven't said BJJ isn't popular, it's still fairly small here but getting bigger and better known. Catch wrestling ( Lancashire wrestling) has been around here for centuries, it's home grown and in the north of England where I am it was the big sport along with whippet racing for miners of which we used to have many. It's a pitman's sport so many know it from there. Other areas of the UK have their own styles of wrestling... Cornwall and Devon ( which is standup only) Cumberland, Scottish Backhold etc. all still reasonably popular. There's also Irish collar and elbow wrestling. These styles are still practised and there's competitions held around the country at places like County shows, Highland games etc as well as specific competitions.



This is complete lie. BJJ in UK is much bigger than all these added together. You could be right if it was 1920, but it is not so you are wrong. 

Also UK has sucked in wrestling since the year dot, soall those awesome folk styles added up to very little even in there hay days!!



> Don't call me a liar again, sweetie, it makes you look like a cockwomble.



Dude, don't tell tall tales and you won't get people calling you on it. Simples!


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 14, 2017)

karatejj said:


> This is complete lie. BJJ in UK is much bigger than all these added together. You could be right if it was 1920, but it is not so you are wrong.
> 
> Also UK has sucked in wrestling since the year dot, soall those awesome folk styles added up to very little even in there hay days!!
> 
> ...



So, BJJ is bigger than karate and Judo here, wow, you have serious delusion issues son.
I assume you are either trying ( note 'trying') to troll or you are a complete groin goblin with nothing better to do than attempt to cause trouble on here.
Now amusing as you are it's probably long past your bedtime.
Oh and about the UK and wrestling success, true we don't have any in the Olympics but there you see you are showing your ignorance because we don't do Freestyle or Greco-Roman apart from a literal handful of people, so you don't actually know the difference between any of those styles. We don't do 'high school or college' wrestling, so I'm making a wild guess at that's why we aren't successful at it.

Now, run along  and try not to put your foot in your mouth anymore than you already have.


----------



## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> So, BJJ is bigger than karate and Judo here, wow, you have serious delusion issues son.



No, but bjj is bigger than all folk style wrestling in UK witch was my point. You know its true. 



> Oh and about the UK and wrestling success, true we don't have any in the Olympics but there you see you are showing your ignorance because we don't do Freestyle or Greco-Roman apart from a literal handful of people, so you don't actually know the difference between any of those styles. We don't do 'high school or college' wrestling, so I'm making a wild guess at that's why we aren't successful at it



I don't see folkstyle in US havin any problems with cross over to freestyle. Dont see russian and mongolian jacket wrestle styles have any problem cross over to judo. Why would 100% of UK folk styles have zero cross over value?


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 14, 2017)

karatejj said:


> No, but bjj is bigger than all folk style wrestling in UK witch was my point. You know its true.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see folkstyle in US havin any problems with cross over to freestyle. Dont see russian and mongolian jacket wrestle styles have any problem cross over to judo. Why would 100% of UK folk styles have zero cross over value?



What on earth are you wittering about? Are you arguing with yourself or a pretend friend? You are making all sorts of things up here that nobody has mentioned. It's all very amusing but the men in white coats may well be calling on you soon. No one said anything about catch wrestling being more or less popular than any other style, your delusions are getting the better of you. You seriously need to go and have a stern word with yourself, you're rambling.
You made a stupid comment about catch being fake and only for people who hate BJJ, neither of which is true. I pointed out catch wrestling has a long history and is in fact real, I didn't actually say it was more popular than anything. I didn't say BJJ is more popular than anything either, it's a relatively new thing here. It is attracting more people, I've been doing it for 17 years now but isn't as popular as TKD, TKD and karate here, which is understandable as they have all been here longer. We don't have the same percentage of BJJ black belt instructors that there are in the US as yet but I'm sure we will have at some point which will be great. It takes time to build. We have BJJ comps here which are getting more numerous so the future looks good. BJJers don't hate catch and catch doesn't hate BJJ, in fact there's a fair bit of cross training as people explore new techniques for MMA.
Now I realise this is a lot to comprehend but do try to control yourself you are getting over excited and I don't want you to wet yourself, that would be more embarrassment for you, you said enough to embarrass yourself considerably already.


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## karatejj (Jul 14, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> No one said anything about catch wrestling being more or less popular than any other style



Right here:



			
				Tez3 said:
			
		

> I will also add that catch wrestling is a style from the UK and is actually well known here, far more than BJJ.



Complete untrue. Bjj far more well known in UK than catch


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 14, 2017)

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*
_
*Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.*

*-Brian R. VanCise
-MartialTalk Moderator-*


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 15, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Right here:
> 
> 
> 
> Complete untrue. Bjj far more well known in UK than catch



Being well known and being popular are two very different things. You are misunderstanding a lot of what is being said here. We aren't talking about people who practice either style, we are talking about people who know about them and catch is far more known about than BJJ. More people may actually do BJJ than catch but the public awareness is different. You are tying yourself up in knots because you don't understand what is being said. Boxing is very well known here but isn't the most popular style of martial art to actually do.

You have misunderstood and got abusive over nothing. You said catch was fake and was done only by people who hate BJJ neither of which is true. Catch came long before BJJ in the UK where catch comes from. I've shown you the history as well as telling you it's still practiced and people do know about it. You took this to mean it's more popular than BJJ and I'm lying. Not my fault you can't understand what I'm saying because I've said it plainly.
While people in the UK do know more about martial arts today than they have ever done, thanks mostly to the film industry and the Olympics in London, it is still a niche activity/sport. MMA is popular among a small group of people and practiced by an even smaller amount.  it's very easy to imagine that because you do an activity it's a popular one because the numbers seem huge to you. We don't get crowds coming to martial arts events in the same way they come to football, cricket and both the rugby rules games. We have a small amount of people here who play American football, there's even a league but it's by no means 'popular' to play but will have a huge number watching the Superbowl on the television. A lot of people know about American football but isn't popular here to play.
Here you will find people who knew their dad/granddad did catch wrestling, in the old working men's clubs there's trophies from the catch competitions. It's remembered and known about. There are still people who do it and more people who know about it.

I also think you are confusing catch with 'all in wrestling' which started in the 1930s and went on to be what is now the 'fake' type you see on the television. "ALL-IN" Wrestling History

I assume you will ignore all this and carry on trying to get threads locked as per the other CMA ones you've been on. So be it, I've tried to explain and I'm happy that what I've said is representative of where we are today as regards catch and BJJ. Despite what you may do most martial artists don't disrespect or 'hate' other types and styles, they carry on doing what they do and find other people's styles with their similarities and differences interesting. if you continually exhibit this aggressive attitude of yours you will find no one taking you seriously or inclined to discuss anything with you.


----------



## Paul_D (Jul 15, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Dude


So far that's "Sir", "guy" and now "Dude".


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 15, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> So far that's "Sir", "guy" and now "Dude".



He's not actually reading my posts is he.


----------



## Paul_D (Jul 15, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> He's not actually reading my posts is he.


Not properly, even the bits he is ready he is misinterpreting.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 15, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Not properly, even the bits he is ready he is misinterpreting.



It's a shame. The 'old' styles like catch are interesting, there's some great stories about comps and even fights. Not actually sure what it had to do with the OP though.  Ah well. I'm just about to settle down and watch the Tour de France. they are showing the whole race everyday in full, sheer bliss.


----------



## karatejj (Jul 15, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> we are talking about people who know about them and catch is far more known about than BJJ. More people may actually do BJJ than catch but the public awareness is different



Not true again. BJJ much more well known that catch in UK. Anyone that watches MMA know what bjj is, and that a lot of people!



Tez3 said:


> You said catch was fake and was done only by people who hate BJJ



This is what I found, maybe you think different



Tez3 said:


> While people in the UK do know more about martial arts today than they have ever done, thanks mostly to the film industry and the Olympics in London, it is still a niche activity/sport. MMA is popular among a small group of people



Untrue. The PPV number for Conor McGregor vs Alvarez in UK was 315000 people. Mike Tyson vs Lennox Lewis PPV audience in UK (huge fight) was 750000 people. How many people have heard of boxing in uk? With audience size 42% of boxing audience size, how many people do you think heard of MMA? All of those will know what BJJ is. Catch wrestlin? Not so much.



Tez3 said:


> We have a small amount of people here who play American football, there's even a league but it's by no means 'popular' to play but will have a huge number watching the Superbowl on the television. A lot of people know about American football but isn't popular here to play.



To compare the SKY (PPV) audience for NFL in UK is 100000-200000 people, less than UFC.



Tez3 said:


> Here you will find people who knew their dad/granddad did catch wrestling, in the old working men's clubs there's trophies from the catch competitions. It's remembered and known about. There are still people who do it and more people who know about it.



Not true, you make stuff up to try and save your argument. BJJ is much much more well known in UK than catch which is pretty much dead


----------



## Paul_D (Jul 15, 2017)

karatejj said:


> To compare the SKY (PPV) audience for NFL in UK is 100000-200000 people, less than UFC.


Neither the NFL nor UFC are PPV in the UK.


----------



## Paul_D (Jul 15, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Untrue. The PPV number for Conor McGregor vs Alvarez in UK was 315000 people. Mike Tyson vs Lennox Lewis PPV audience in UK (huge fight) was 750000 people. How many people have heard of boxing in uk? With audience size 42% of boxing audience size, how many people do you think heard of MMA?


No, it's not untrue.  MA is a niche sporting activity because only a small number (in comparison to other sports) of people take part in it.

Whilst yes lots of people have heard of MMA, very few have an interest in it.  Having heard of something and being a fan of it are not the same thing, it is a niche sport in the UK, not in terms of public awareness, but in terms of participants and number of fans, when compared to other sports.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 15, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Not true again. BJJ much more well known that catch in UK. Anyone that watches MMA know what bjj is, and that a lot of people!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don't know if you are being deliberately obtuse or are just plain thick because you are simply arguing for the sake of it.
As you've already been told *neither the UFC nor NFL* *is on PPV here.* The UFC is on a small channel here with a small coverage, BT sport, it has 900,000 television customers most of whom like myself get it free with our broadband and telephone landline services. the majority watch it for the football matches. The numbers you quote for watching boxing are good ones but considering that the population of the UK is over 64 million, it's not the figures you get for football, rugby, horse racing and cricket. Football has viewing figures of 3-4 million per match per week in the UK. 
The McConnor Alvarez fight was on BT2 here, non PPV. UFC 205 date, fight card, UK time, TV channel and odds for McGregor v Alvarez. A hint here... don't take your figures from the Daily Fail, it lies ... a lot.

The rest of your nonsense makes it clear you have little idea what I'm writing about, your confusion, your disrespect of other styles and your bewildered ramblings show us you are only determined to argue no matter what, probably until the thread is locked down.


----------



## wckf92 (Jul 15, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> So far that's "Sir", "guy" and now "Dude".



He's not the sharpest knife in the drawer is he...


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 15, 2017)

It's time to say enough already and get back to the OP. it would be a shame if another thread is locked.


----------



## Steve (Jul 15, 2017)

, I do have a question.   If catch wrestling is still popular in the U.K., why are brits, by your own admission, so mediocre at wrestling?  Tez3, you yourself have said many times that wrestling (broad use of the term) is not popular in the UK.  But now are saying the exact opposite.


----------



## anerlich (Jul 16, 2017)

My grappling base is BJJ. And without BJJ, I doubt I would have taken up grappling.

That said, other wrestling arts like Catch Wrestling and Sambo have a lot to offer a Jiu Jitiero. They have a huge number of techniques, many of which are illegal in Jiu Jitsu competition, but would work great in a defense situation. As well as many unusual positions, pins, techniques, and tweaks of BJJ techniques, which can be integrated in a competitive Jiu Jitsu athlete's game and surprise a less open minded opponent. The recent explosion of leglock technicians at high levels of competition did not come from the Gracies. 

Taking up one art (or more to the point for this forum, one particular lineage) doesn't actually require you to pour scorn on other arts. And such an attitude is immature and foolish.


----------



## anerlich (Jul 16, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> So far that's "Sir", "guy" and now "Dude".



Awaiting "Bro".


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 16, 2017)

The mistake many people make is reading something and thinking it says something else. Karatejj keeps insisting that 'popular' and known' are the same thing, they aren't. A great many things are known about but it doesn't make them popular. Catch wrestling as I have said many times now is *known* here, catch wrestling is genuine, not made up or fake. As I said many people up north can tell you stories about their family connections to catch, have medals, trophies etc won by fathers, grandfathers.  *This proves catch is real, not fake, it doesn't say that it's popular or trained everywhere, it doesn't mean people are doing it instead of BJJ, what it  does is prove is it's existence. *Kartejj stated catch was fake and done by people who hate BJJ, I am showing he is wrong and actually offensive.

BJJ is also known here and is growing in *popularity, *which is good. The two things don't contradict each other, only a thicko out to cause trouble would confuse them, karatejj was determined to prove I was saying catch wrestling is more popular than BJJ, I wasn't and it isn't. Judo is very well know here due to many factors eg Olympic success, the Diana Rigg and Cathy Gale characters from the Avengers, lots of Judo clubs and the fact it's been here since the late 19th century. It's always been the go to style for writers to have their characters doing.  Chinese styles became popular here after Bruce Lee burst into the public consciousness, martial arts as a whole got much more well known with it, a boost for everyone. In the sixties though 'all in wrestling' hit the televisions, think budget WWE, hugely entertaining though, grannies loved it.
When Lee Hasdell brought MMA ( 1995, known as shootfighting then) to our shores, Judo was the base 'ground' style for Brits. BJJ as homegrown instructors came through the ranks, (everyone knows how long it takes to grade in BJJ)  has grown and is still growing both as an adjunct to stand up for MMA and as a sport in itself. However as had been said, martial arts, all of them are a small niche activity in the UK, most know about 'kung fu' but don't practice, the same with 'karate'. I think the public differentiate between them by what they wear!

It's really tiresome trying to explain to karatejj something quite simple, he called catch fake....I have showed it's not. He said it's done by people who hate BJJ.... I have showed it's not. Catch wrestling has a small amount of practitioners, ie it's not done by many but it is *known *( that doesn't make it a 'popular' thing to do, putting ferrets down your trousers ...ferret legging... is a *well known* activity here but few do it, it's known but not popular, can't imagine why) by many especially up here in the north of England. There is a documentary that was shown on mainstream television here about catch, it received a lot of publicity and articles in the press.

The catch instructors are often invited to MMA gyms to pass on their knowledge because fighters are always looking for an advantage. I've been doing BJJ for quite a while, I find BJJ people inquisitive and always keen to see what others have. The catch people I've meet are likewise, both groups of people seem to want to challenge themselves, I know our BJJ instructor enjoyed himself immensely when he went across to train with the catch guys. the styles compliment each other.

For the record other types of wrestling, the ones that compete in the Olympics are rarer than hens teeth here, I don't even know where you would train them.

One last thing before I go. I am wondering if catch as catch can wrestling to give it it's proper name is something slightly or even quite a bit different in the US as opposed to here in the UK?


----------



## karatejj (Jul 16, 2017)

Steve said:


> , I do have a question.   If catch wrestling is still popular in the U.K., why are brits, by your own admission, so mediocre at wrestling?  Tez3, you yourself have said many times that wrestling (broad use of the term) is not popular in the UK.  But now are saying the exact opposite.



Catch wresting not popular in UK!! Also not well know. BJJ more popular and more well known than Catch in whole world include UK!!


----------



## karatejj (Jul 16, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I don't know if you are being deliberately obtuse or are just plain thick because you are simply arguing for the sake of it.
> As you've already been told *neither the UFC nor NFL* *is on PPV here.* The UFC is on a small channel here with a small coverage, BT sport, it has 900,000 television customers most of whom like myself get it free with our broadband and telephone landline services. the majority watch it for the football matches. The numbers you quote for watching boxing are good ones but considering that the population of the UK is over 64 million, it's not the figures you get for football, rugby, horse racing and cricket. Football has viewing figures of 3-4 million per match per week in the UK.
> The McConnor Alvarez fight was on BT2 here, non PPV. UFC 205 date, fight card, UK time, TV channel and odds for McGregor v Alvarez. A hint here... don't take your figures from the Daily Fail, it lies ... a lot.
> 
> The rest of your nonsense makes it clear you have little idea what I'm writing about, your confusion, your disrespect of other styles and your bewildered ramblings show us you are only determined to argue no matter what, probably until the thread is locked down.



Lol at argue now whether it PPV or not, nothing to do with numbers watchin NFL (which you said popular) or boxing (which is def popular) vs MMA. 

MMA on numbers more popular than NFL, and hald as popular as huge boxing match, so it is popular and many people heard of it and BJJ in UK. 

You just like argue about nothin I think, lol


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## Paul_D (Jul 16, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Lol at argue now whether it PPV or not, nothing to do with numbers watchin NFL (which you said popular) or boxing (which is def popular) vs MMA.
> 
> MMA on numbers more popular than NFL, and hald as popular as huge boxing match, so it is popular and many people heard of it and BJJ in UK.
> 
> You just like argue about nothin I think, lol


No, it isn't popular, it is a minority sport.  People knowing about it, and being interested in it are two _different_ things. It's not that we like to argue, it's that you don't seem to be able to understand the difference.


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## Nobody Important (Jul 16, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> The mistake many people make is reading something and thinking it says something else. Karatejj keeps insisting that 'popular' and known' are the same thing, they aren't. A great many things are known about but it doesn't make them popular. Catch wrestling as I have said many times now is *known* here, catch wrestling is genuine, not made up or fake. As I said many people up north can tell you stories about their family connections to catch, have medals, trophies etc won by fathers, grandfathers.  *This proves catch is real, not fake, it doesn't say that it's popular or trained everywhere, it doesn't mean people are doing it instead of BJJ, what it  does is prove is it's existence. *Kartejj stated catch was fake and done by people who hate BJJ, I am showing he is wrong and actually offensive.
> 
> BJJ is also known here and is growing in *popularity, *which is good. The two things don't contradict each other, only a thicko out to cause trouble would confuse them, karatejj was determined to prove I was saying catch wrestling is more popular than BJJ, I wasn't and it isn't. Judo is very well know here due to many factors eg Olympic success, the Diana Rigg and Cathy Gale characters from the Avengers, lots of Judo clubs and the fact it's been here since the late 19th century. It's always been the go to style for writers to have their characters doing.  Chinese styles became popular here after Bruce Lee burst into the public consciousness, martial arts as a whole got much more well known with it, a boost for everyone. In the sixties though 'all in wrestling' hit the televisions, think budget WWE, hugely entertaining though, grannies loved it.
> When Lee Hasdell brought MMA ( 1995, known as shootfighting then) to our shores, Judo was the base 'ground' style for Brits. BJJ as homegrown instructors came through the ranks, (everyone knows how long it takes to grade in BJJ)  has grown and is still growing both as an adjunct to stand up for MMA and as a sport in itself. However as had been said, martial arts, all of them are a small niche activity in the UK, most know about 'kung fu' but don't practice, the same with 'karate'. I think the public differentiate between them by what they wear!
> ...



Good post Tez, and to answer your question, no it does not. In USA Catch as Catch Can has a long history and means to get a hold any way you can. Depending on where you are it went by various names like, No Holds Barred or Rough & Tumble. I think people mistake it for WWF style a lot because it branched off into that from the circus back in 1940s.

Catch is very popular in USA but probably best known as the foundation of Freestyle. Freestyle, though doesn't use the illegal techniques (hooking, gouging & purring) in competition, lots of places don't even teach them. Most high schools offer wrestling here and it is all based on a mix of Irish Collar & Elbow, Westmoreland, Lancanshire, Devonshire, & Cornish methods along with Greco Roman. Pennsylvania is big on wrestling, it's a tradition that's been in my family for generations. Many of the styles above are also names of counties in PA, named after their predecessors in England, each bringing with them their English traditions, one of which was Wrasslin. I have many state & regional champions in my family & carry no doubt in their ability to successfully defend themselves. It is not a fake method, & IMO the only reason why MMA shot to popularity.


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## Tez3 (Jul 16, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Catch wresting not popular in UK!! Also not well know. BJJ more popular and more well known than Catch in whole world include UK!!



Look, for the final time son, no one is saying catch is popular, it's well known, something completely different. Theresa May the Prime Minster is well known, she is absolutely *not* popular, get it now?

Ooooo... _the whole world eh_, now you sound like a small child or a fanboy. neither of which is attractive.



karatejj said:


> You just like argue about nothin I think, lol



No, dear, we aren't arguing at all, we are telling you something. You are the one arguing as you seem to a lot here not just on this thread. If you can't tell the difference between  'known' and 'popular' it's no wonder you don't understand. 



karatejj said:


> MMA on numbers more popular than NFL, and hald as popular as huge boxing match, so it is popular and many people heard of it and BJJ in UK.



This is just plain silly.

Oh and as much as I wish it otherwise MMA isn't as popular as boxing, just because you think it is. I doubt that MMA is more popular than the NFL anywhere but that I'll leave to Americans to say yay or nay on that. I know very little about it, I'll stick to subjects I know about.


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## karatejj (Jul 16, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> No, it isn't popular, it is a minority sport.  People knowing about it, and being interested in it are two _different_ things. It's not that we like to argue, it's that you don't seem to be able to understand the difference.



Sure its a minority sport, but more peopl are know about MMA and BJJ that know about catch, thats for sure

Tez said this about NFL



			
				Tez3" said:
			
		

> We have a small amount of people here who play American football, there's even a league but it's by no means 'popular' to play but will have a huge number watching the Superbowl on the television. A lot of people know about American football but isn't popular here to play.



So "a lot" of people know about NFL in UK, and is "huge number" watching superbowl. But numbers for superbowl is lower than numbers for Connor McGreggor fight!!

So MMA must have more than "a lot" of people know about, and have more than "huge number" watchin!!

Teh problem with u an Tez is that you not honest.

BTW, what is you're avatar, is in mannequin wearining hoodie?


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## karatejj (Jul 16, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Good post Tez, and to answer your question, no it does not. In USA Catch as Catch Can has a long history and means to get a hold any way you can. Depending on where you are it went by various names like, No Holds Barred or Rough & Tumble. I think people mistake it for WWF style a lot because it branched off into that from the circus back in 1940s.



Catch even less well know in US than UK, and that sayin something!!

Only haters love in in US for sure.


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## Tez3 (Jul 16, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Catch even less well know in US than UK, and that sayin something!!
> 
> Only haters love in in US for sure.



You are burbling. 'Haters' of what? I suspect you are trying either to make your post count rise or to troll. Whatever you are doing though isn't making you look clever or serious about martial arts.


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## Nobody Important (Jul 16, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Catch even less well know in US than UK, and that sayin something!!
> 
> Only haters love in in US for sure.


Well, OK if you say so, you are obviously the authority.


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## Paul_D (Jul 16, 2017)

karatejj said:


> BTW, what is you're avatar, is in mannequin wearining hoodie?


It's my BOB (Body Opponent Bag).  I added a hoodie and a cap, in part to make him more intimdating and in part as I can stuff the sleeves to give him arms, which I can practice seizing and controlling whilst I strike.


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## karatejj (Jul 16, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> You are burbling. 'Haters' of what? I suspect you are trying either to make your post count rise or to troll. Whatever you are doing though isn't making you look clever or serious about martial arts.



Don't be a hater


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## Tez3 (Jul 16, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Don't be a hater



Oh my, you are a funny boy. ( I mean funny peculiar not funny amusing)


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## drop bear (Jul 16, 2017)

Steve said:


> , I do have a question.   If catch wrestling is still popular in the U.K., why are brits, by your own admission, so mediocre at wrestling?  Tez3, you yourself have said many times that wrestling (broad use of the term) is not popular in the UK.  But now are saying the exact opposite.



It won't even be close to the amount of participation and support that you get in America. The easiest reference point would be to look up UK highschool wrestling. And I think you would get almost nothing. 

Which is why the rest of the world is so crap at it.

Also why Australia dominates sports like swimming.

As far as catch goes. If a kid grew up doing any wrestling. Then he would have a good base to do catch or folk or even MMA, Judo,BJJ.


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## Steve (Jul 16, 2017)

drop bear said:


> It won't even be close to the amount of participation and support that you get in America. The easiest reference point would be to look up UK highschool wrestling. And I think you would get almost nothing.
> 
> Which is why the rest of the world is so crap at it.
> 
> ...


I think its useful to disringuish between popularity and awareness.   I believe more people in the UK might know what catch wrestling is but I would be surprised if it's anywhere near as popular as BJJ.


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## Tez3 (Jul 17, 2017)

drop bear said:


> And I think you would get almost nothing.



Not almost nothing...absolutely nothing. I wouldn't say the rest of the world is rubbish at it though, the East European and Asian countries do very well, in some it's a national sport. I watched the last Olympics where the majority of medals in all the weight categories were won by non Americans. Where Americans won it was against stiff competition. It was interesting watching the bouts once the rules were explained and following some real characters going through the rounds was fun. It's where  countries like Bulgaria, Mongolia, Kyrgyzstan, Azerbaijan, Turkey, Russia ( as it is now not the USSR as was) etc win their medals. They all do well in weight lifting as well, I don't know if that a coincidence lol. Seems they are doing much the same in BJJ.  ADCC European Trials: Eastern Europeans Dominate
The Middle East also has a history of very good wrestlers, Iran especially. If the situation ever gets sorted there we'll see them back on the world stage.
The USSR holds the record for winning the most medals at Olympic wrestling, now it's broken up the individual countries are winning them so to say the rest of the world is rubbish is simple not true.


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