# RBSD training suits



## samurai69 (Dec 2, 2005)

Do you have any opinions on the various protective suits for RBSD training

I use a mixture of equipment at the moment, but will probably go with the balance of high ger equipment

at the moment i have a high gear "trainer chest guard, hockey shin gaurds and foot protectors a steel muay thai box with an additional spar trainers external box over the top

Head guard at the moment is normal sparring with cage and a modified neck brace (not the best as its bulky - but it works for full on neck blows even witha weapon)

I have seen bulletman and FAST suits, but they look quite bulky

any pointers thaughts comments greatly recieved


----------



## Andrew Green (Dec 2, 2005)

My view -> Riddiculously expensive and not needed.


----------



## Makalakumu (Dec 2, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> My view -> Riddiculously expensive and not needed.


 
Why is that?


----------



## BallistikMike (Dec 2, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Why is that?


 
Andrew Green trains in MMA with full power shots. Hard sparring with rules. He doesnt need that equipment for his Martial Art.

I almost agree with him to a point. 

For the most part you do not need the equipment. Active drills with the correct "attitude" will get you to where you want to go imho. Of course you may need focus mitts, thai shields, heavy shields, maybe a head gear or two to deaden the blow a bit, that would be up to you and where you want to take your training. 

Others view things different and can see a need for the equipment, like myself, Im just not going to spend the money on something like that. Not when you put a bit of ingenuity and testing together and come up with something that works. 

What are you looking for? A Moddle Mugger type of suit, something that will allow you to throw full power kicks into a compliant adversary?
Someone who "acts" being bad as oppossed to what you will really see on the street?

Thats the main problem I see with the suit. They profess realism when infact its just acting. I would rather drill focus mitts, or shields and then get blindsided by a tackle or something to induce fear or something like that. 

Also how can you really know your shots are effective when you are striking armor? Because a coach whistles "Stop" and says so? Or a training partner grabs his/her gut and shakes off "Nice  shot" ?

Money would be better spent on a few free standing "Spar pros" or things like that nature.


----------



## Tgace (Dec 2, 2005)

Not everybody wants to subject their bodies to full contact blows on a day in day out training basis. Why use gloves, mouth guards, etc. at all then?


----------



## Makalakumu (Dec 2, 2005)

You only have one body for the rest of your life.  Mine has had quite a few broken bones (ribs, fingers, toes, wrists, hand, collarbone)...from striking and falling.  It's no fun and it puts a big damper on one's training.  What's the point of risking all of that for an unlikely event?

I'm skeptical of the whole full contact mma crowd.  One would imagine that they'd be breaking their bodies to bits on a regular basis and that the longevity of such activity would be severely limited _or_ they are exaggerating their claims.  And then there are the people who I know do it for real...like a friend of mine who trained at the Lion's Den with Frank and Ken Shamrock.  The man is 35 and his back hurts so much he can hardly walk.

IMHO, this gear provides an opportunity to train smarter.  It provides an element of realism _and_ safely.  I can deliver a full power shot that would break bones and not have to worry about hurting someone.  And I can take one of those shots without have to head to the ER.  I wish I would have used it more, because from the times that I have used it, I have benefitted far more then I did laying on my back waiting for bone to regrow.

upnorthkyosa


----------



## Tgace (Dec 2, 2005)

I concur sir!


----------



## Andrew Green (Dec 2, 2005)

No one trains full contact every day, and I can protect myself just fine with gear that costs a lot less then one of those suits.

Ok, maybe they can hit harder in day to day training, but in doing so aren't going to learn to protect themselves as well.

Finding that mid point between not enough protective gear and too much is the trick.


----------



## Makalakumu (Dec 2, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> No one trains full contact every day, and I can protect myself just fine with gear that costs a lot less then one of those suits.
> 
> Ok, maybe they can hit harder in day to day training, but in doing so aren't going to learn to protect themselves as well.
> 
> Finding that mid point between not enough protective gear and too much is the trick.


 
Andrew, I know it is possible to train mma safely.  I've done so and I've had a lot of fun!  However, I think that it if you are going to balance the amount of protective gear, then you MUST also balance the amount of realism one trains with...or one is just not going to last.

These suits provide a unique opportunity to do some things that _aren't done typically in a normal day of training_.  One has the opportunity to his as hard they wish and be hit with that force...and even if it doesn't injure you, I think the experience will be educational.  It was for me.

So, I disagree, using this protective gear in smart ways, will definitely help one protect themselves.


----------



## MJS (Dec 3, 2005)

TGace and Upnorth made some good points and I agree.  The gear will allow you to do things on a higher level more often.  I, as well as everyone else here has a job to go to the next day.  I for one, can't afford to take time off due to constant training injuries.

Mike


----------



## BallistikMike (Dec 3, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> TGace and Upnorth made some good points and I agree. The gear will allow you to do things on a higher level more often. I, as well as everyone else here has a job to go to the next day. I for one, can't afford to take time off due to constant training injuries.
> 
> Mike


 
I guess it depends on what you think a higher level is. 

Using a suit requires less precision in your strikes, doesnt acknowledge a solid blow that is delivered and it breeds sloppiness. 

Granted through "Reality" scenario based training you may get that all coveted "Adrenalin" dump that so many claim by using the suit to simulate reality as much as possible. It is acting though. That in and of it self makes me suspect. 

I have to agree with Andrew and finding the fine line between getting as close to realism and just beating on a moving heavy bag is a very fine line. 

I also agree with trying to protect yourself with as much care as possible. Heck we all need to work everyday and going to work looking like a "Fight Club" member just doesnt work for nearly all of us.

Full power shots landing on a suit of armor may have meritt. It may also give you a very false sense of security. That is my main fear.

Basically what is need is just a girdle protection that allows full power shots to the groin, bladder and hip joint region, head protection that also protects the neck from whip lash. All the other material can be just normal padding. 

Training is not easy and well...it hurts sometimes. I just have a very strong belief that if you try and minimze the pain so much that it alters the reality of an encounter just so you can land full power shots, well you arent doing anything productive. Now it protects against injury, but pain is still felt, then I can see that benefitting.

I understand where everyone is coming from and as time passes I just dont want to get hit as much anymore, yet I also want to try and stay sharp. So what to do? Is "Body Armor" the way to go?


----------



## Makalakumu (Dec 3, 2005)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> I understand where everyone is coming from and as time passes I just dont want to get hit as much anymore, yet I also want to try and stay sharp. So what to do? Is "Body Armor" the way to go?


 
I think it is really the only safe way to go full contact, full power, full intensity.  Your point about feeling what its like to get hit is noted, however, I think that one can accomplish this with medium power sparring and the gear that you mentioned.  Btw - this type of sparring is what most people, in my experience, call full contact.  There is enough power behind the strikes to cause a reaction, but it is controlled so that it rarely leaves a lasting injury.  

On a side note, one thing I try to remind my students is that when they strike full blast, full power, their is a good likelihood that they will injure themselves as well.  One might have the best technique in the world, but they cannot control everything that an opponent will do in a fight.  If you punch someone in the head, and they flinch right before impact, you just broke your hand (this one I know from experience).

So I guess my point is, train smart.  Train safe.  Have fun.  RBSD suits give the opportunity to do all three.


----------



## MJS (Dec 3, 2005)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> I guess it depends on what you think a higher level is.


 
Take a look at many of the MA schools today.  This sort of training is rarely seen, but IMO, it is something that is important.



> Using a suit requires less precision in your strikes, doesnt acknowledge a solid blow that is delivered and it breeds sloppiness.


 
Actually, the idea of the suit is to allow more precise shots w/o injury on the part of the 'attacker.'



> Granted through "Reality" scenario based training you may get that all coveted "Adrenalin" dump that so many claim by using the suit to simulate reality as much as possible. It is acting though. That in and of it self makes me suspect.


 
You're correct, it is acting, and like a movie, there are good actors and poor ones.  The part of the 'actor' in this case needs to be able to put the defender into the proper mindset in order to get the most out of this training.  Take a look at Peyton Quinn.  He regularly uses both the suits and this type of training.  




> I also agree with trying to protect yourself with as much care as possible. Heck we all need to work everyday and going to work looking like a "Fight Club" member just doesnt work for nearly all of us.


 
Agreed.



> Full power shots landing on a suit of armor may have meritt. It may also give you a very false sense of security. That is my main fear.


 
And what merit do full contact shots to the head have?



> Basically what is need is just a girdle protection that allows full power shots to the groin, bladder and hip joint region, head protection that also protects the neck from whip lash. All the other material can be just normal padding.


 
The suits are not cheap, and I'm certainly not disputing that.  I would think that if you're not using a suit, the material you choose, would still have to be sturdy enough to handle those shots.  



> Training is not easy and well...it hurts sometimes. I just have a very strong belief that if you try and minimze the pain so much that it alters the reality of an encounter just so you can land full power shots, well you arent doing anything productive. Now it protects against injury, but pain is still felt, then I can see that benefitting.


 
I believe the idea of the suit is to protect the 'attacker' against injury while allowing the defender to be able to get a feel for going all out.  Again, many MA schools, out of fear of getting sued, losing students, etc. do not do this, and instead rely on a game of tag, which in many cases finds the student pulling his/her shots.



> I understand where everyone is coming from and as time passes I just dont want to get hit as much anymore, yet I also want to try and stay sharp. So what to do? Is "Body Armor" the way to go?


 
I guess sir it all comes down to how one wants to train.  Padding, no padding, little padding...what is the goal that we want to acheive?  

Mike


----------



## BallistikMike (Dec 3, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Actually, the idea of the suit is to allow more precise shots w/o injury on the part of the 'attacker.'


 
This is about the only thing I will disagree with fully.

Large bulky helmets (those used by Mr. Quinn) do not develop sound striking fundementals. It breeds the exact opposite with such a wide target to strike. 

Even Mr. Blauer's suits have an oversized head, although I would agree they are much smaller and closer to actual head size.

If, and it is an IF, people rely on the "Suits" themselves as a judge for effective striking under stressfull conditions it is doing an injustice. Maybe even installing a false sense of security. 

I have witnessed how the acting "Bad guy" moves and it isn't even close to a real world altercation, let alone a trained fighter.

I understand the  idea of wanting a "body armor" so scenarios can be played out & 3/4 to full power shots can be delivered so we do not hurt our training partners and vice verse. The thing I see is you can use kicking shields, mitt work, hard sparring and a number of other training drills to get the same benefit and maybe even exceed it.

I am just playing the devils advocate here and wanting to make sure you do not spend 1000's of dollars on equipment and training that you do not need. 

Hard grappling, Hard forward pressure with shields and mitts, Hard sparring (every once in awhile), Negative training from disadvantged points of reference, Surprise attacks during normal drill work, so many things can be used to get that all coveted "Adrenal" dump. 

I can now see that it is the "Body armor" suits that triggered my response and it isn't neccessarily the suits themselves that bug me, its the claim of the people using these "Super" suits that does.

Its my bad for jumping on the suits themselves. I now see where you are taking it with them. I apologize.


----------



## BallistikMike (Dec 3, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> And what merit do full contact shots to the head have?


 
Very valid point.

It is very hard to connect with a full power shot to a persons head. Count how many times a trained fighter misses another trained fighter during any boxing, mma or any fighting contest? Many.

Granted that is a specific sporting skill, for the sport they are doing. It doesnt count for the fact of ambush or preemption or any number of factors a street encounter can bring. Even on the street it is hard to hit a persons head effectively. 

How does an oversized training helmet help this? or does it hinder it?


----------



## arnisador (Dec 3, 2005)

The suits are useful when not both parties want to do MMA. Someone can suit up and _not_ be beaten to a pulp!


----------



## MJS (Dec 4, 2005)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> This is about the only thing I will disagree with fully.
> 
> Large bulky helmets (those used by Mr. Quinn) do not develop sound striking fundementals. It breeds the exact opposite with such a wide target to strike.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, you bring up a good point.  I've seen tapes of Vunak using a motorcycle helmet.  This may be a better option for the reason you mention above...the oversized head.

Mike


----------



## arnisador (Dec 4, 2005)

At the PFS school where I train we do use motorcycle helmets on occasion. Other types of helmets have failed in the past, I'm told--including one broken nose through a face shield.

We used kendo facemasks at a different school recently--I find them uncomfortable!


----------



## tellner (Dec 5, 2005)

It's all tradeoffs. The oversized head isn't completely realistic. But they do a decent (not perfect but at least decent) job of protecting your brain and your face. No matter how tough you are, every really hard shot to the head that you take kills brain cells. I plan on using mine for a while.

The Model Mugging sorts of suits are useful in context. I've used them for about fourteen years in teaching self defense. Even with the protection I've had concussions, broken ribs, a damaged trachea, and broken fingers and toes. My wife got a broken leg. If you can take full power elbows, knees, headbutts, Thai kicks and a stomping when you hit the ground without getting hurt it's pretty obvious that you've done a criminally lousy job of teaching your students. And if each person only gets in one or two good shots, by the end of the night you can have a pretty serious ***-whipping going on.


----------



## MJS (Dec 5, 2005)

tellner said:
			
		

> It's all tradeoffs. The oversized head isn't completely realistic. But they do a decent (not perfect but at least decent) job of protecting your brain and your face. No matter how tough you are, every really hard shot to the head that you take kills brain cells. I plan on using mine for a while.


 
Good point!!  I realize that the goal of these suits is to provide protection, and while I admit that they are bulky and may lead to people being careless with their shots, I would hope that the instructor would still make a point to make sure that the students are aiming for proper targets, not just swinging away.

Mike


----------



## still learning (Dec 5, 2005)

Hello, Never did put one of those suits on or hit anybody with one on!

But from what I have read.  This is one of the closest thing to the real thing.  To hit someone with all your might (full power) who is standing up and ready to attack you.  The comments you hear is, this is different and they learn what works  or don't work for them.  Very realistic!  

Hate to be in suit! ..........................Aloha


----------



## Makalakumu (Dec 5, 2005)

When one pounds one of these suits, one learns why muey thai is so effective.  One can dish out a beating quickly and without any complicated motions.


----------



## samurai69 (Dec 6, 2005)

http://www.rmcat.com/realfightingpage.htm  nice article on the suits and uses in RBSD


----------

