# Incoming punch - counter with block - inside or outside?



## lianxi (May 15, 2018)

I'm new here and a martial artist of 30 years and most of my fighting / sparring experience is temple fighting, fighting forms, etc. as opposed to real-world fighting or MMA. Recently there was some discussion regarding an MMA fight and how to deal with an incoming punch. I've never had training in boxing but apparently one technique is to side parry or push the incoming punch to the inside. For ex - facing the opponent, he or she throws a straight right at you - you come at their arm from the outside pushing it toward the centerline between you and then away. This is the opposite of using say a uechi circle block (wax on, wax off) and coming at the arm from the inside and directing it away from the centerline. Any thoughts on these two opposite approaches?


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## wab25 (May 15, 2018)

Well, they put you in different places, giving you different options and different vulnerabilities.

The wider the punch is (the more round) the harder it is to get to the outside... without some type of duck under. The straighter the punch is, the more you have to work to get to the inside of it. I am just lazy enough that most of the time, I will take the easier route. No point in using more energy than needed. But this means you need to understand and be proficient from inside and outside.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 15, 2018)

lianxi said:


> Any thoughts on these two opposite approaches?


Definition:

1. front door - space between your arms.
2. side door - space outside of your arms.

If you think that you are

1. better than your opponent, you block his punch from inside out and then enter his front door.

PRO: All your opponent's body is open for your attack.
CON: You have to deal with his other hand too.

2. not better than your opponent, you block his punch from outside in and then enter his side door.

PRO: You can use his leading arm to jam his own back arm. You may only need to deal with his leading arm.
CON: Your attacking area may be limited.


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## lianxi (May 15, 2018)

wab25 said:


> Well, they put you in different places, giving you different options and different vulnerabilities.
> 
> The wider the punch is (the more round) the harder it is to get to the outside... without some type of duck under. The straighter the punch is, the more you have to work to get to the inside of it. I am just lazy enough that most of the time, I will take the easier route. No point in using more energy than needed. But this means you need to understand and be proficient from inside and outside.



Great points and makes sense in the general way I was looking for -  a rounder punch - maybe a right cross, would be harder to get to and parry from the outside, while a straighter punch might lend itself to the side parry. Thanks.


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## lianxi (May 15, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you think that you are
> 
> 1. better than your opponent, you block his punch from inside out and then enter his front door.
> 
> ...


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## Danny T (May 15, 2018)

Parry to the inside and rotating the body creating the parry and as the opponent recovers his punch you counter rotate striking through is guard as he recovers his punch. You will be striking into what KFW calls the front door.


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## lianxi (May 15, 2018)

Thanks to all of you in advance for these responses and insights.


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## lianxi (May 15, 2018)

This is another helpful answer - the inside block puts YOU inside if you're confident enough to be in there! As a less aggressive and more defensive fighter, I like the idea of the side parry if it could be executed, turning the opponent away and dealing with his side, rather than being right in his center space.


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## Buka (May 15, 2018)

And welcome to Martialtalk, Lianxi.


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## lianxi (May 15, 2018)

Thanks Buka. Um - what's the difference between a post and a thread here? Seems I created a thread, not sure if that's the ideal way to do it - ??


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 15, 2018)

Your opponent will respect you

- more if you can defeat him through his front door (you have shown your courage, for example a hip throw).
- less if you can only defeat him through his side door (you have not shown enough of your courage, for example a foot sweep).


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## Ryan_ (May 15, 2018)

lianxi said:


> Thanks Buka. Um - what's the difference between a post and a thread here? Seems I created a thread, not sure if that's the ideal way to do it - ??


A post is anything you post, including replies to threads.
A thread is the entire topic (meaning the entirety of "incoming punch - block with counter inside or outside")


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## lianxi (May 15, 2018)

Got it.


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## marques (May 15, 2018)

Directing to the inside, makes every continuation a bit more difficult for the opponent and a counter a bit easier for me. I don’t want my opponent face to face, but in a position where I can strike better.

I am sure the other way also works, just not the best way for me.


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## marques (May 15, 2018)

lianxi said:


> This is another helpful answer - the inside block puts YOU inside if you're confident enough to be in there! As a less aggressive and more defensive fighter, I like the idea of the side parry if it could be executed, turning the opponent away and dealing with his side, rather than being right in his center space.


That’s about what I would advise. BUT sometimes you may want to be less predictable and still use both ways; sometimes there is only one way open (in competition, training, or self defence) and it forces you go to or across his centre space.


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## JowGaWolf (May 15, 2018)

lianxi said:


> Any thoughts on these two opposite approaches?


The only one that I have is to use the block that is appropriate for the situation.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 15, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> The only one that I have is to use the block that is appropriate for the situation.


If my hands are

- up, I will use outward block to protect my center from inside out.
- down, I will use inward block to protect my center from outside in.

If my opponent attacks with

- hook or hay-maker, I will use outward block to protect my center from inside out.
- jab or cross, I will use inward block to protect my center from outside in.

I like to follow this plan and never change it. This way I can accumulate my experience.


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## Martial D (May 15, 2018)

lianxi said:


> I'm new here and a martial artist of 30 years and most of my fighting / sparring experience is temple fighting, fighting forms, etc. as opposed to real-world fighting or MMA. Recently there was some discussion regarding an MMA fight and how to deal with an incoming punch. I've never had training in boxing but apparently one technique is to side parry or push the incoming punch to the inside. For ex - facing the opponent, he or she throws a straight right at you - you come at their arm from the outside pushing it toward the centerline between you and then away. This is the opposite of using say a uechi circle block (wax on, wax off) and coming at the arm from the inside and directing it away from the centerline. Any thoughts on these two opposite approaches?


Boxers/kickboxers/MMA guys tend to parry outside in  on the mirror hand because it's quick and doesn't leave you open. If you parry inside out cross hand your head is there to be knocked off.


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## drop bear (May 15, 2018)

Rule of thumb if you go inside. (And I will just use the right hand.) You have to be striking back or you get clocked with the left.

A lot of this has to do with creating distance and reaction time.

So if my block pushes the right hand inwards. His left hand needs to travel further where my right hand is closer. (These are the hands ready to fire the next shot.)

Although if I push his right hand outside. His left hand is closer. But there is a trick to this because I can still cover his left hand side.

Now the opening is created on his right hand side. So I can block and punch with the same hand through that gap.

Works really neat with elbows.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 15, 2018)

lianxi said:


> I'm new here and a martial artist of 30 years and most of my fighting / sparring experience is temple fighting, fighting forms, etc. as opposed to real-world fighting or MMA. Recently there was some discussion regarding an MMA fight and how to deal with an incoming punch. I've never had training in boxing but apparently one technique is to side parry or push the incoming punch to the inside. For ex - facing the opponent, he or she throws a straight right at you - you come at their arm from the outside pushing it toward the centerline between you and then away. This is the opposite of using say a uechi circle block (wax on, wax off) and coming at the arm from the inside and directing it away from the centerline. Any thoughts on these two opposite approaches?


My short answer: if you find yourself moving out, block them in. If you find yourself moving in, block out. When you train, you have to explore both, because there will be times you don't get to make the choice. Given a choice, I'd prefer to be on the outside - less opportunity for them, and I have plenty of tools to use.

There's more to it than that, but I'm short on time at the moment.


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## jks9199 (May 15, 2018)

Block to the inside or the outside?  

Yes.

Blocking to the inside has a lot of advantages; you will be on the outside, limiting their ability to throw another punch or kick being on of the biggest.  But it can limit your options on where and how to attack.

Blocking to the outside means you're inside; odds are that many of their centerline targets will be more available.  But... you're in position to eat their next punch or kick, too...

So, which is better?  Neither.  Where am I in relation to them? How did I react to their strike?  Am I simply trying to escape -- or destroy them?  These are some of the questions that would shape my preference of the moment...


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## JowGaWolf (May 15, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> My short answer: if you find yourself moving out, block them in. If you find yourself moving in, block out. When you train, you have to explore both, because there will be times you don't get to make the choice. Given a choice, I'd prefer to be on the outside - less opportunity for them, and I have plenty of tools to use.
> 
> There's more to it than that, but I'm short on time at the moment.


Some people make the mistake of passing up opportunities just because they want to block or punch a certain way.  If a person sees that his or her opponent really wants to block "outside-in," then that person will do whatever possible to prvent the opportunity to block that way.  Some people will give up 20 opportunities for the sake of having only one.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 15, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Some people make the mistake of passing up opportunities just because they want to block or punch a certain way.  If a person sees that his or her opponent really wants to block "outside-in," then that person will do whatever possible to prvent the opportunity to block that way.  Some people will give up 20 opportunities for the sake of having only one.


This is very common. In fighting, you

- want to use your most powerful weapon.
- don't want to use your weak weapon.

If your right punch has knocked down people before but your left hand has not, you may give up your left hand knock down opportunity and try to create your right hand knock down opportunity.


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## lianxi (May 16, 2018)

Thanks gpseymour. More good reasoning here - you can block them in if you're not going to be there! When I originally asked this question yesterday, it was because of reading an analysis of an mma fight - ie - the practicality of what to do with an incoming straight punch in a real fighting situation. All of this has made me realize that I've spent the past 32 years mastering the 'art' of martial arts, which at 64 has helped me develop strong chi, balance, proprioception, range of motion and more (I practice solo) - but however artistic and graceful I might be, I'm unprepared for real fighting. This is what I've learned here on this forum already! - thanks guys.


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## JR 137 (May 16, 2018)

Countering inside vs outside depends on a lot of factors, as mentioned previously.

My very general rule of thumb is I counter straight punches (jab, cross) with an outside-in block.  This pushes the punch past me and across the opponent’s body.  It opens up targets that the opponent can’t defend very well, gets me off-line, and makes it harder for the opponent to keep punching.  This is my ideal place to be - I can hit him easily, he can’t hit me.

I block circular punches like a hook with an inside-out block.  The punch is pushed away from the attacker’s body. He’s still squared up in front of me and has his other hand and both feet to counter.  It’s the least ideal place for me to be.  However, blocking a hook punch like this requires less movement and time; to block it the other way, I’d have to slip/duck/and or back up.  Basically, I’d have to let the punch go past me.

Sparring “blocks” shouldn’t be those exaggerated “textbook” 2 hands winding up and one hand going to chamber blocks.  They should be quick, more of a hook block.

And I don’t like the term block, as I think it’s too literal.  I like deflect/parry more.

Last thought - the actual block where the arm meets the opponent’s arm is the smallest part of it all.  The main part is the footwork and torso and head movement.  Get all those right, and you don’t even have to actually make contact.  The contact you make will just move the punch further away, creating a bigger target and/or off-balancing the opponent.

All this applies to kicks too.  Straight kicks like front and side kick, and circular kicks like roundhouse and crescent kicks.

Very last thought for now...

Get Joko Ninomiya’s Sabaki Method: Karate in the Inner Cirlce.  It’s great at explaining the why and how to use blocks and movement to get to an advantageous position.


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## JowGaWolf (May 16, 2018)

lianxi said:


> Thanks gpseymour. More good reasoning here - you can block them in if you're not going to be there! When I originally asked this question yesterday, it was because of reading an analysis of an mma fight - ie - the practicality of what to do with an incoming straight punch in a real fighting situation. All of this has made me realize that I've spent the past 32 years mastering the 'art' of martial arts, which at 64 has helped me develop strong chi, balance, proprioception, range of motion and more (I practice solo) - but however artistic and graceful I might be, I'm unprepared for real fighting. This is what I've learned here on this forum already! - thanks guys.


This is the most honest self reflection and acceptance that I've heard in a while.  The reason is that many martial arts practioners would find it difficult to say something like that .  

The good news is that this realization is the start of a great journey.  At least for me it was.


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## hoshin1600 (May 16, 2018)

lianxi said:


> This is the opposite of using say a uechi circle block (wax on, wax off) and coming at the arm from the inside and directing it away from the centerline.



being the token Uechi guy here......your understanding of the Uechi  wa uke is incorrect.  a Uechi circle block utilizes both hands.  the first hand , called the "top hand"  is a push inward block as you described here...


lianxi said:


> you come at their arm from the outside pushing it toward the centerline between you and then away.



then the second hand circles from underneath making that wax on wax off type of motion.
the end result is you use the same hand actions to either open the person up exposing the chest and vitals or you close the person down with you off the center line shutting down their line of force and attack. being on the outside allows you to "take the persons back" and it is a safer position but your return on vital targets not as good.  if you open them up the return for vital strikes is higher but its not as safe a position because you have to deal with the continuous line of power and more attacks.


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## oftheherd1 (May 16, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Parry to the inside and rotating the body creating the parry and as the opponent recovers his punch you counter rotate striking through is guard as he recovers his punch. You will be striking into what KFW calls the front door.



Good enough.  You can also do a simultaneous punch to his lower ribs, or kidney if he lunges, far enough.  You can also continue you rotation around so you are back to back, squatting as you do, reach up and around with both hands to under his chin and throw him over your shoulder.  Your opponent will never look at a jab the same way again.

Another technique is to step in and to your right, grabbing his striking arm with both your hands.  You come close to his body, rotating counter-clockwise (assuming a defense against a right jab) and throw him over your hip or shoulder as opportunity best presents itself.  Two things make this work.  As you are stepping quickly into his body, even if he manages to strike with his left hand, his strike will have little strength.  Very importantly, you are not encircling his striking arm.  You are grabbing skin and/or muscle of the upper forearm and the upper arm, as hard as you can grip (we practice grips 50 to 100 or even more at each warm up).  Done correctly that is quite painful and directs most of you opponent's attention to what is going wrong with his upper arm and upper-forearm, and some on how did you get where you are, and why is the world upside down.  That move is a little hard to describe, but when demonstrated, seems much simpler.


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## JR 137 (May 16, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> being the token Uechi guy here......your understanding of the Uechi  wa uke is incorrect.  a Uechi circle block utilizes both hands.  the first hand , called the "top hand"  is a push inward block as you described here...
> 
> 
> then the second hand circles from underneath making that wax on wax off type of motion.
> the end result is you use the same hand actions to either open the person up exposing the chest and vitals or you close the person down with you off the center line shutting down their line of force and attack. being on the outside allows you to "take the persons back" and it is a safer position but your return on vital targets not as good.  if you open them up the return for vital strikes is higher but its not as safe a position because you have to deal with the continuous line of power and more attacks.


I somehow read “uechi” as in uechi ryu, as “uchi” as in uche-uke (inside-out block).  Uechi Ryu blocks are different than the mainstream Japanese karate blocks.

Working out with the Uechi Ryu guys in Pittsfield, MA (we talked about a while back) showed me how much different Uechi Ryu is than the norm.  I loved Uechi Ryu.  But I think it’s quite easy to butcher the application of Uechi stuff.  Mainstream Japanese/Okinawan stuff gets butchered often enough, but Uechi stuff seems far easier to mimic yet far harder to fully understand.  In a good way.


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## JR 137 (May 16, 2018)

@lianxi
So everyone’s on the same page, what style karate do you study?  It would help people better explain specifics about your style.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 16, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> And I don’t like the term block, as I think it’s too literal.  I like deflect/parry more.


1. block
2. deflect/parry
3. deflect/parry + grab + pull

IMO, 3 > 2 > 1


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## lianxi (May 16, 2018)

@lianxi
So everyone’s on the same page, what style karate do you study? It would help people better explain specifics about your style.

JR137 - I began with uechi ryu and hayashi ha shito ryu, nearly 30 yrs ago and each for less than a year. I studied the zen martial art of shim gum do for many years and still practice its 20 forms - (shin beop - empty hand- a bit like tkd). Due to its creator, it's more about zen mind-body training than fighting efficacy - it's largely unknown and unrecognized, if not entirely dismissed in the martial arts world, but unique and brilliant in how it links movements, and uses gravity and momentum. I practice solo (barefoot) and my practice also includes chi kung and baguazhang's circle walking. So, this is what I mean about not really being a fighter, despite practicing martial arts seriously for over 30 yrs. I'm afraid I'm exactly what Bruce Lee railed against - someone who practices and enjoys forms and choreography - which can freeze you into patterns and aren't going to make you a good, spontaneous fighter. I'm not apologizing, because I make progress every day in the way of proprioception, balance, intention, range of motion and coordination - I'm 64 and feel like I'm 20. I still believe martial arts are about fighting first and foremost, I'm just 'cursed' with a compassionate nature! For ex - I enjoy the UFC fights regularly, both male and female, because at its best it's a real match between the fighters' styles and spirits. But I hate many aspects of it, such as ground and pound - there's no art to that for me - it's just not who I am. Still, I'm fascinated by mechanics and by what works which is why I asked my original question and learned so much from the answers here.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 16, 2018)

If you block your opponent's arm from

- outside in, you can push his elbow joint and pull his wrist joint and apply pressure on his arm.
- inside out, you don't have that advantage.


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## wab25 (May 16, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you block your opponent's arm from
> 
> - outside in, you can push his elbow joint and pull his wrist joint and apply pressure on his arm.
> - inside out, you don't have that advantage.


No, for inside out, you have a different advantage. If you block his right forearm from the inside, with your left forearm... you can move it away from you and down. If you catch his right elbow with your right forearm and pull it towards you and up at the same time... either he gets both his feet in the air for a high back fall or a lot more range of motion in his shoulder... for a short period of time. 

Blocking to the outside verses the inside is not as black and white as you are making it. One is not better than the other. Sure there are different opportunities and different dangers to each. Assuming you understand both sides, use the one that is appropriate for the situation. If you don't understand one side, go learn about it. Trying to force your favorite technique into a situation it does not belong in, will bite you sometime.


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## Flying Crane (May 16, 2018)

lianxi said:


> Thanks gpseymour. More good reasoning here - you can block them in if you're not going to be there! When I originally asked this question yesterday, it was because of reading an analysis of an mma fight - ie - the practicality of what to do with an incoming straight punch in a real fighting situation. All of this has made me realize that I've spent the past 32 years mastering the 'art' of martial arts, which at 64 has helped me develop strong chi, balance, proprioception, range of motion and more (I practice solo) - but however artistic and graceful I might be, I'm unprepared for real fighting. This is what I've learned here on this forum already! - thanks guys.


That may or may not be true.  I would not automatically write you off.  It depends.

Solo training is very valuable, and you can develop useful skills in that way.  You likely will not be as confident with those skills if you have not done much interactive training along the way.  But those skills might still be there underneath it all.

I suspect that it would not take a whole lot of interactive training, if done with the right people, to polish those skills into a more useable understanding and build that confidence.  Perhaps not to be a champion MMA competitor, but that is not the yardstick against which all things must be measured, in spite of what some people will claim.  At any rate, at a level to be able to trust in your skills in the unlikely event you might need to defend yourself against an unruly fellow someday.


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## Flying Crane (May 16, 2018)

lianxi said:


> @lianxi
> So everyone’s on the same page, what style karate do you study? It would help people better explain specifics about your style.
> 
> JR137 - I began with uechi ryu and hayashi ha shito ryu, nearly 30 yrs ago and each for less than a year. I studied the zen martial art of shim gum do for many years and still practice its 20 forms - (shin beop - empty hand- a bit like tkd). Due to its creator, it's more about zen mind-body training than fighting efficacy - it's largely unknown and unrecognized, if not entirely dismissed in the martial arts world, but unique and brilliant in how it links movements, and uses gravity and momentum. I practice solo (barefoot) and my practice also includes chi kung and baguazhang's circle walking. So, this is what I mean about not really being a fighter, despite practicing martial arts seriously for over 30 yrs. I'm afraid I'm exactly what Bruce Lee railed against - someone who practices and enjoys forms and choreography - which can freeze you into patterns and aren't going to make you a good, spontaneous fighter. I'm not apologizing, because I make progress every day in the way of proprioception, balance, intention, range of motion and coordination - I'm 64 and feel like I'm 20. I still believe martial arts are about fighting first and foremost, I'm just 'cursed' with a compassionate nature! For ex - I enjoy the UFC fights regularly, both male and female, because at its best it's a real match between the fighters' styles and spirits. But I hate many aspects of it, such as ground and pound - there's no art to that for me - it's just not who I am. Still, I'm fascinated by mechanics and by what works which is why I asked my original question and learned so much from the answers here.


For what it’s worth, I believe Bruce Lee was wrong.


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## Buka (May 16, 2018)

lianxi said:


> @lianxi
> So everyone’s on the same page, what style karate do you study? It would help people better explain specifics about your style.
> 
> JR137 - I began with uechi ryu and hayashi ha shito ryu, nearly 30 yrs ago and each for less than a year. I studied the zen martial art of shim gum do for many years and still practice its 20 forms - (shin beop - empty hand- a bit like tkd). Due to its creator, it's more about zen mind-body training than fighting efficacy - it's largely unknown and unrecognized, if not entirely dismissed in the martial arts world, but unique and brilliant in how it links movements, and uses gravity and momentum. I practice solo (barefoot) and my practice also includes chi kung and baguazhang's circle walking. So, this is what I mean about not really being a fighter, despite practicing martial arts seriously for over 30 yrs. I'm afraid I'm exactly what Bruce Lee railed against - someone who practices and enjoys forms and choreography - which can freeze you into patterns and aren't going to make you a good, spontaneous fighter. I'm not apologizing, because I make progress every day in the way of proprioception, balance, intention, range of motion and coordination - I'm 64 and feel like I'm 20. I still believe martial arts are about fighting first and foremost, I'm just 'cursed' with a compassionate nature! For ex - I enjoy the UFC fights regularly, both male and female, because at its best it's a real match between the fighters' styles and spirits. But I hate many aspects of it, such as ground and pound - there's no art to that for me - it's just not who I am. Still, I'm fascinated by mechanics and by what works which is why I asked my original question and learned so much from the answers here.



Love this post. Good for you, bro.


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## lianxi (May 16, 2018)

Thanks guys - feel at home here and really getting benefit from the many different perspectives. I guess that's the real treasure of martial arts - there are so many aspects. I've come to love practicing solo for the freedom of it but I'm thinking now that I need to add some sparring and interaction with another person - it's been too long and I'm missing that important dimension.


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## frank raud (May 18, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Your opponent will respect you
> 
> - more if you can defeat him through his front door (you have shown your courage, for example a hip throw).
> - less if you can only defeat him through his side door (you have not shown enough of your courage, for example a foot sweep).


Is this a Chinese cultural thing?


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 18, 2018)

frank raud said:


> Is this a Chinese cultural thing?


This kind of thinking has existed in Chinese wrestling (not sure about other CMA) for thousands years. The Chinese wrestling is popular in the Chinese Muslim. So this may be the Chinese Muslim cultural thing.

If you take me down with a foot sweep, I may say that you are lucky. But if you use hip throw to throw me over your back, I will admit that you have defeated me.


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## lianxi (May 18, 2018)

JR 137 said "I don’t like the term block, as I think it’s too literal.  I like deflect/parry more."

OP here - I keep thinking about this correction and like that you pointed it out - it shows how I've come to think of my practice movements a little too literally. The term 'block' is to me, one of my many rote  exercises and seems to say it's a preset response - a one size fits all response, whereas to deflect or parry suggests a more fluid, spontaneous, improvised reaction to what's happening or about to happen. Funny how that change of term made me rethink my defensive response.


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## JR 137 (May 20, 2018)

lianxi said:


> JR 137 said "I don’t like the term block, as I think it’s too literal.  I like deflect/parry more."
> 
> OP here - I keep thinking about this correction and like that you pointed it out - it shows how I've come to think of my practice movements a little too literally. The term 'block' is to me, one of my many rote  exercises and seems to say it's a preset response - a one size fits all response, whereas to deflect or parry suggests a more fluid, spontaneous, improvised reaction to what's happening or about to happen. Funny how that change of term made me rethink my defensive response.


Something to keep in mind...

I’m not a Japanese speaker.  My only Japanese language skills are dojo Japanese.  That being said, I’ve heard several times from native Japanese and Okinawan speakers that the term uke, as in jodan uke/high block, is better translated as “receive” rather than “block.”  Block isn’t an all-out bastardization of uke, but from this perspective it seems like it’s somewhat being butchered.

When I think of “block,” I think far closer to how boxers put their hands up and absorb the punches and/or striking the hand/arm/foot that’s coming at you.  When I think “receive,” I think kind of along the lines of catching a water balloon or an uncooked egg; or as I said deflect/parry.  Sure there’s a time for hard blocks, but far more often footwork and body movement combined with pushing the strike along the way is far more effective.

All IMO.  I’m no expert.  I’m sure someone who actually communicates in Japanese and/or Okinawan outside the dojo could improve on my interpretation and/or prove me completely wrong.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 20, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Something to keep in mind...
> 
> I’m not a Japanese speaker.  My only Japanese language skills are dojo Japanese.  That being said, I’ve heard several times from native Japanese and Okinawan speakers that the term uke, as in jodan uke/high block, is better translated as “receive” rather than “block.”  Block isn’t an all-out bastardization of uke, but from this perspective it seems like it’s somewhat being butchered.
> 
> ...


Also not a Japanese speaker - not even really fluent in Dojo Japanese. So I'm going to authoritatively add my tiny bit of knowledge. 

In grappling, "uke" also refers to the person receiving the throw. "Ukemi waza" is the skills used as uke (falls, rolls, etc.). That seems to support your interpretation.


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## JR 137 (May 20, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Also not a Japanese speaker - not even really fluent in Dojo Japanese. So I'm going to authoritatively add my tiny bit of knowledge.
> 
> In grappling, "uke" also refers to the person receiving the throw. "Ukemi waza" is the skills used as uke (falls, rolls, etc.). That seems to support your interpretation.


Uke refers to the person receiving/defending the attack in karate too.  The attacker is referred to as the tori (I’m not sure of the spelling there).


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## Gerry Seymour (May 20, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Uke refers to the person receiving/defending the attack in karate too.  The attacker is referred to as the tori (I’m not sure of the spelling there).


Tori/dori (same word, pronunciation situational I've been told by someone who isn't entirely authoritative) I was taught referred to grip and thrower (which means it's either a conceptual word for "doing" or the words are different). We reverse the usage in NGA (and in Aikido, as I understand) - tori is the person executing the technique, uke is the person receiving it (thus, the one initiating the attack). Confusing, but both are logical - just applying "receiver" from the opposite perspective.


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## Danny T (May 20, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Countering inside vs outside depends on a lot of factors, as mentioned previously.
> 
> And I don’t like the term block, as I think it’s too literal.  I like deflect/parry more.



The thing is there are checks, jams, parries, blocks, and strikes all available within the same movement. 
The problem with giving a movement a particular nomenclature such as 'block' then all the other potentials become overlooked, misunderstood, or even lost.


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## Buka (May 20, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Something to keep in mind...
> 
> I’m not a Japanese speaker.  My only Japanese language skills are dojo Japanese.  That being said, I’ve heard several times from native Japanese and Okinawan speakers that the term uke, as in jodan uke/high block, is better translated as “receive” rather than “block.”  Block isn’t an all-out bastardization of uke, but from this perspective it seems like it’s somewhat being butchered.
> 
> ...



"Dojo Japanese" What a great term, JR.


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## Danny T (May 20, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Something to keep in mind...
> 
> I’m not a Japanese speaker.  My only Japanese language skills are dojo Japanese.
> 
> All IMO.  I’m no expert.  I’m sure someone who actually communicates in Japanese and/or Okinawan outside the dojo could improve on my interpretation and/or prove me completely wrong.


On top of that there are the many different Dojo Japanese dialects.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 20, 2018)

Danny T said:


> The thing is there are checks, jams, parries, blocks, and strikes all available within the same movement.
> The problem with giving a movement a particular nomenclature such as 'block' then all the other potentials become overlooked, misunderstood, or even lost.


I see them as extensions and variations of each other. I use different terms for block/parry/deflection/redirection, but the terms overlap generously.


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## oftheherd1 (May 21, 2018)

wab25 said:


> No, for inside out, you have a different advantage. If you block his right forearm from the inside, with your left forearm... you can move it away from you and down. If you catch his right elbow with your right forearm and pull it towards you and up at the same time... either he gets both his feet in the air for a high back fall or a lot more range of motion in his shoulder... for a short period of time.
> 
> Blocking to the outside verses the inside is not as black and white as you are making it. One is not better than the other. Sure there are different opportunities and different dangers to each. Assuming you understand both sides, use the one that is appropriate for the situation. If you don't understand one side, go learn about it. Trying to force your favorite technique into a situation it does not belong in, will bite you sometime.



Good moves.  Just a couple of variations:  With the first block from the inside out, you might want to block and simultaneously grab his wristt with your right hand, forcing and keeping your left hand inside the crook of his elbow.  Pull his wrist towards you and push back at the same time, to hyper-extend his elbow.  If he decides to continue the fight, he has one less hand/arm to use.  For the second you mentioned, step in to grab/deflect/block his and grab his right wrist with your right hand, then step back quickly and forcibly, lifting it up and then snapping it down.  Done properly, you will slam his face/head onto the ground.  A heel down kick (our terminology, I don't what you might call it or if you even have that kick) to his spine, if he can get up after all that, will probably have him thinking thoughts of peaceful resolutions to offer you.


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## dvcochran (May 21, 2018)

An important consideration is your stance relative to your opponent. If you are open (bodies facing the same way), and they lead jab, which typically would be straight, an inside to outside lead hand block will open the opponent up even more without exposing your body. Advantage back leg kick/punch. In the same scenario, if you are a spinner, outside to inside block and back leg spin simultaneously. The block/spin should mildly carry you opponent forward into you kick.
If you are closed stance and quick with the front leg, inside to outside block and  front, side, jam kick to the mid section is very effective. If you are a spinner close position and when you opponent move toward you (punch, step, etc...) throw a very tight spinning side kick to the mid section. Keep you back hand up as it will become your lead blocking hand. Don't want to remember how many times I have been kicked in the face because I forgot to keep my spinning hand up. 
I always try to mentally stay 2-3 moves ahead when sparring. Play the "what if" game when sparring in class. Go through each scenario for lead hand and back hand relative to your position.
The outside to inside block is a much more natural and flowing movement allowing you to more easily move your opponent into the desired position.
The inside to outside block a is much more arresting or stopping motion. Think about the advantages & disadvantages of both relative to your position


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## oftheherd1 (May 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I see them as extensions and variations of each other. I use different terms for block/parry/deflection/redirection, but the terms overlap generously.



Its simple.  If you stop the movement of a strike or kick  with a blow to the striking object, directly against the movement, which few of our blocks do, then it is in fact a block.  Now, as is more common, if you move a strike or kick enough to the side that it goes past you that is a parry.  Oh, wait, is that a deflection?  Well let's see what Marriam_Webster online says:
intransitive verb
1: to ward off a weapon or blow

_parried_ forcefully and knocked his opponent's sword out of his hand
2: to evade or turn aside something  Deflect or redirect?

can parry and thrust … without losing the thread of his argument
—Stewart Cockburn
transitive verb
1: to ward off (something, such as a blow)

_parried_ the thrust of his opponent's sword
2: to evade especially by an adroit answer

_parried_ the question
OK, got it, now just to cinch the bet one more online dictionary, Cambridge Dictionary: 

... to defend yourself from a weapon or an attack by pushing the weapon away or by putting something between your body and the weapon  ?

Maybe gpseymour has it right, except gpseymour, what is the difference between a deflection and redirection.  Help me here man, inquiring minds are all agog with the possibilities.     

I need your help as I have certainly confused myself (an easy exercise)


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## Danny T (May 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I see them as extensions and variations of each other. I use different terms for block/parry/deflection/redirection, but the terms overlap generously.


Ok...What about throws, takedowns, breaks, etc. utilizing the same movement/s? 
For example a down block is throw. An inside block is an arm break. An upper block combined with an inside block creates a setup for a figure 4 shoulder lock. From there the down block creates a takedown.


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## JR 137 (May 21, 2018)

Going back to the original question of which way is better suit when to use each...

Get a partner.  Have your partner throw a punch or kick.  Block it.  Both of you freeze and hold it.  Analyze everything about it - what targets are available on both of you, which targets aren’t, are both of you close or far enough away for an effective counter/follow-up, which country’s are available and are they good counters, etc.  Analyze the crap out of it.

Then do the same strike, but blocked another way.  Repeat analysis.

Same blocks, but moving forward when blocking, moving backward, laterally, and circularly.

Now add multiple strikes coming at you.  Did your initial blocks prevent them?  Did they put you in an advantageous, dangerous, or neutral position?  Just when you think you’ve got it all figured out, more punches come and everything changes again. 

Analyze everything and every possibility.  What’s most effective for you should determine what blocks you’re using, when you’re using them, and how you’re moving.  What’s best for you might not be the best for anyone else.

The only thing you need is a partner who’s willing and just as interested.  Sometimes that’s a bit hard to come by.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 21, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Its simple.  If you stop the movement of a strike or kick  with a blow to the striking object, directly against the movement, which few of our blocks do, then it is in fact a block.  Now, as is more common, if you move a strike or kick enough to the side that it goes past you that is a parry.  Oh, wait, is that a deflection?  Well let's see what Marriam_Webster online says:
> intransitive verb
> 1: to ward off a weapon or blow
> 
> ...


Okay, here are my vague definitions (I purposely keep them vague, so they can overlap) and some notes on where they are vague and/or overlapping:

Block: stopping a strike. This has both hard (force-on-force) and soft (invovles blending, and the striker doesn't feel "blocked", but never gets to target). The latter is part evasion, and almost always includes some redirection.
Parry: A block that circles, causing the strike to cross over (high or low) to the other side of the body. A strong deflection, which requires redirection.
Deflection: Similar to a block, with a dash of parry added, so the strike is blocked and sent down (but not fully parried). Can also apply to a soft block that has some "push away" added to it, to continue the strike's momentum forward (from the striker's perspective), which is a bit like a redirection.
Redirection: similar to a deflection, but purposely causes a shift in the striker's momentum.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 21, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Ok...What about throws, takedowns, breaks, etc. utilizing the same movement/s?
> For example a down block is throw. An inside block is an arm break. An upper block combined with an inside block creates a setup for a figure 4 shoulder lock. From there the down block creates a takedown.


I teach all blocks (the generalized "all" that doesn't really mean "all") have a down component, to start breaking structure, because the block/parry/redirect/deflection is actually the beginning of the throw. If the two are separate, you either got lucky, or he let you throw him.


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## wab25 (May 21, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Going back to the original question of which way is better suit when to use each...
> 
> Get a partner.  Have your partner throw a punch or kick.  Block it.  Both of you freeze and hold it.  Analyze everything about it - what targets are available on both of you, which targets aren’t, are both of you close or far enough away for an effective counter/follow-up, which country’s are available and are they good counters, etc.  Analyze the crap out of it.
> 
> ...


I like what you are saying, especially the try it out and analyze it bit. (we really need to be doing that a lot more than we do)

However, I think the question is wrong. We should not be asking which is better as I think they are both needed, *because* they are different. I would add to your set up, block to the outside and follow up with a technique. Block to the inside and follow up with a technique. Analyze that follow up technique, get a small set that you can do using "muscle memory," and practice those a lot. 

The issue is that in some situations you can block to the outside much easier than you can block to the inside and vice versa. Trying to force the "better" technique, when the situation is not set up for it is much more dangerous. Whether you should go outside or inside can be very subtle. A slight change in angle, your weight distribution and or momentum, what part of your foot work he catches you in, how he moves... so many things. I would rather learn both, and drill block and immediate response, in both directions... Then allow the right one to happen. Set up more drills, where one or more attacks are being made and learn to apply both. When you walk into something, analyze why and try again. 

I just don't like saying one is better than the other here, as both can be very good when applied in the right situation. Let the situation determine how you respond.


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## oftheherd1 (May 21, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Going back to the original question of which way is better suit when to use each...
> 
> Get a partner.  Have your partner throw a punch or kick.  Block it.  Both of you freeze and hold it.  Analyze everything about it - what targets are available on both of you, which targets aren’t, are both of you close or far enough away for an effective counter/follow-up, which country’s are available and are they good counters, etc.  Analyze the crap out of it.
> 
> ...



I like the idea except I would caution not to be too quick to say something is subjecting you to strikes or kicks without considering the speed of your defense and how much it will break your opponent's structure.  I don't mean that to be insulting, but I see it so often here on MT where somebody jumps up and declares something will not work because at some point you are vulnerable.  Maybe you are, and that is the point of the analysis, but don't be fooled by the stop for that analysis.


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## JR 137 (May 21, 2018)

wab25 said:


> I like what you are saying, especially the try it out and analyze it bit. (we really need to be doing that a lot more than we do)
> 
> However, I think the question is wrong. We should not be asking which is better as I think they are both needed, *because* they are different. I would add to your set up, block to the outside and follow up with a technique. Block to the inside and follow up with a technique. Analyze that follow up technique, get a small set that you can do using "muscle memory," and practice those a lot.
> 
> ...


I was thinking that stuff too, but I couldn’t post every single thought in my head.  And some thoughts left as I was typing out others.


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## JR 137 (May 21, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I like the idea except I would caution not to be too quick to say something is subjecting you to strikes or kicks without considering the speed of your defense and how much it will break your opponent's structure.  I don't mean that to be insulting, but I see it so often here on MT where somebody jumps up and declares something will not work because at some point you are vulnerable.  Maybe you are, and that is the point of the analysis, but don't be fooled by the stop for that analysis.


It’s all about analysis IMO.  Nothing you do is going to be 100% effective and zero risk.  Move one way, you open up targets.  Move the opposite way, there’s some new one.  Don’t do anything, and you’ve got other open targets.

The analysis will show what’s open and what’s not.  With this stuff, it’s picking your poison.  Everything’s a trade-off.  It’s a balance between protecting, attacking, and being mobile enough.  And every opponent is going to change those priorities and force you to compensate for any of those aspects; a faster fighter vs a stronger fighter vs long reach fighter vs...

It’s all about trade offs.  Least harm done to you and all that.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 21, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> It’s all about analysis IMO.  Nothing you do is going to be 100% effective and zero risk.  Move one way, you open up targets.  Move the opposite way, there’s some new one.  Don’t do anything, and you’ve got other open targets.
> 
> The analysis will show what’s open and what’s not.  With this stuff, it’s picking your poison.  Everything’s a trade-off.  It’s a balance between protecting, attacking, and being mobile enough.  And every opponent is going to change those priorities and force you to compensate for any of those aspects; a faster fighter vs a stronger fighter vs long reach fighter vs...
> 
> It’s all about trade offs.  Least harm done to you and all that.


I tend to state this in business terms (too much time spent as a consultant) - it's all about risk-reward analysis.


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## FriedRice (Jun 28, 2018)

lianxi said:


> I'm new here and a martial artist of 30 years and most of my fighting / sparring experience is temple fighting, fighting forms, etc. as opposed to real-world fighting or MMA. Recently there was some discussion regarding an MMA fight and how to deal with an incoming punch. I've never had training in boxing but apparently one technique is to side parry or push the incoming punch to the inside. For ex - facing the opponent, he or she throws a straight right at you - you come at their arm from the outside pushing it toward the centerline between you and then away. This is the opposite of using say a uechi circle block (wax on, wax off) and coming at the arm from the inside and directing it away from the centerline. Any thoughts on these two opposite approaches?



Only you can answer this question for yourself, by sparring a lot from light to (sometimes) hard, for KO's and maybe fight in the ring to figure out what type of a fighter you are. But even then, you may change how you fight by a little or even drastically. Just about everything trained to deal with a punch to the face, will work. But someone better than you will usually whoop you.


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## dvcochran (Jul 1, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Only you can answer this question for yourself, by sparring a lot from light to (sometimes) hard, for KO's and maybe fight in the ring to figure out what type of a fighter you are. But even then, you may change how you fight by a little or even drastically. Just about everything trained to deal with a punch to the face, will work. But someone better than you will usually whoop you.


It depends largely on you intent and opportunities to/from the incoming attack. An inside block leaves you closed to the attacker reducing the quality targets, very good targets but fewer of them. The outside opens up the attacker, but has drawbacks as being a lower % block, slower, and can open you up to more counter-attacks. Work both blocks from various attacks to help figure out the best answer for you.


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## FriedRice (Jul 1, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> It depends largely on you intent and opportunities to/from the incoming attack. An inside block leaves you closed to the attacker reducing the quality targets, very good targets but fewer of them. The outside opens up the attacker, but has drawbacks as being a lower % block, slower, and can open you up to more counter-attacks.



They both work, although these Karate looking blocks don't seem to work well vs. fighters who can throw fast hands, ie. Boxers.  You rarely, if ever, see these blocks in Kickboxing...and KB was even created by Karatekas. 



> Work both blocks from various attacks to help figure out the best answer for you.



Yea, that's what I said.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 1, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> They both work, although these Karate looking blocks don't seem to work well vs. fighters who can throw fast hands, ie. Boxers.  You rarely, if ever, see these blocks in Kickboxing...and KB was even created by Karatekas.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, that's what I said.


The "Karate looking" blocks are, IMO, the beginner's version of the blocks.


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## dvcochran (Jul 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> The "Karate looking" blocks are, IMO, the beginner's version of the blocks.


Agreed. Somewhere in the normal transition from color belt to BB most people learn that the "over-exaggerated" motion of blocks in segmented practice and forms is more about the purposes of conformation and repetition. Seldom do you have the time or need to make the large motion but you understand the purpose and when to use it. 
One point I did not mention earlier, if you are already standing closed to you opponent, a Front hand outside block (really more of a parry) can set up a front leg middle kick or, if you are quick, a back leg kick. It is a medium % kick and is helped by the fact that when you are standing closed, spinning kicks are often used and expected.


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## skribs (Jul 6, 2018)

In my experience it depends on what you want to do.

Blocking outside is generally better if:

There's multiple enemies, especially if going outside puts the puncher between you and them 
You want to go for an arm lock and take control
You want to take the back or neck
You want to take out the legs (i.e. kick to the knee
Blocking inside is better for:

Multiple enemies would be to the outside
You want to engage in a throw (i.e. hip throw)
You want to strike (i.e. kick to the groin, palm to the face, punch to the gut

Now, that's not to say you can't strike outside.  You can punch to the face or kick to the ribs.  It also doesn't mean you can't go for control inside.  It's just a general rule of thumb from what I've learned.


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## evan.fedora (Jul 7, 2018)

For me pushing it outwards, the central line helps most of the times.


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