# SKK Pinan 1& Kata 1



## Josh Oakley (Oct 28, 2009)

So one of my projects I've been doing, since I'm headed to Iraq, is mapping out the forms as reference for myself and my instructors. One of my instructors speaks Japanese and when he looked at it, commented that when we connect the dots, it kind of looks like the symbol _ki_. 

I also mapped out Kata 1, and showed him some odd relationships. When mapped out, there are three straight lines: one vertical, one diagonal meeting at the top of the vertical line, and one diagonal that parallels the other diagonal, , criss/crossing just above center. When he looked at it sideways, he says it looks a lot like the symbol _ka.

_I don't know jack squat about the symbols, so I thought I'd put it to you guys. Is there anything to this? is there any intention behind this, or is it an interesting coincidence? 

I'll tell you what, though. Coincidence or no, mapping out the forms has been enlighening. there were a lot of interesting relationships in the footwork.


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## Carol (Oct 28, 2009)

Best of luck in Iraq. Stay safe!

I don't have any clips of the pinans at my fingertips, but my impression was that Pinan 1 was taken from the Shotokan form Tai Kyoku Shodan.  If I'm mistaken, please ignore the rest of what I have to say.  

[yt]qggvJ4ZJIoE[/yt]


The movements are in an "I" shape.  I suppose if one has a creative eye, hat shape can be found within the hiragana and katakana for Ki, but that to me sounds like a bit of a stretch.  I don't really see it within the kanji for ki.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Japanese_Hiragana_kyokashotai_KI.png

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Japanese_Katakana_KI.png

http://learnakanji.blogspot.com/\


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## Josh Oakley (Oct 28, 2009)

More or less the same. We use a half-moon stance instead of a front stance. However, I'd like to point out that if you map out even her form, it doesn't fit a perfect "I" either. She ends slightly back from where she begins, and although her footwork isn't 100% the same each step, the pattern is pretty much the same.

Here's video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQDGz7CKRCQ&feature=related

When you map it out, and keep each half-moon exactly the same, it's not, in the strictest sense going to be an I. I always laugh a bit when a student who's had a different instructor, than me or my sensei insists that it _has_ to be an I, and you _have _to begin and end in the same spot.

Then I hand them a tape measure and electrical tape and make them prove it. I showed the paper version to a black belt instructor who outranks me and it's changed the way he does forms.


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## Josh Oakley (Oct 28, 2009)

But thank you. Now that I've seen the kanji for _ki, _it's almost _exactly_ the same as what we found.


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## punisher73 (Oct 28, 2009)

Can't say anything as to the symbol for "ka", but what would the meaning be for that word and does it relate to the theme of the kata in any way?

As to Pinan 1 being in an "I" shape, that follows the same pattern as the Japanese version of Taikyuko as has been pointed out.  Originally, the kata ends were "bent" at 45 degree angles <-->  (except on a vertical plane)  it was changed for aesthetic reasons later.  I also believe that the original pattern had something to do with military strategy/formations.

If you bend the top lines of Kata 1  from it's "T" shape to 45 degrees it resembles the old okinawan kata, Seuichin.


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## Josh Oakley (Oct 28, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> Can't say anything as to the symbol for "ka", but what would the meaning be for that word and does it relate to the theme of the kata in any way?
> 
> As to Pinan 1 being in an "I" shape, that follows the same pattern as the Japanese version of Taikyuko as has been pointed out. Originally, the kata ends were "bent" at 45 degree angles <--> (except on a vertical plane) it was changed for aesthetic reasons later. I also believe that the original pattern had something to do with military strategy/formations.
> 
> If you bend the top lines of Kata 1 from it's "T" shape to 45 degrees it resembles the old okinawan kata, Seuichin.


 
As far as pinan 1 goes, map it out.

I don't know. That's why I'm asking you guys.


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## Josh Oakley (Oct 29, 2009)

I guess I should have been more specific. We found it by connecting dots of lines we found in the footwork. Kata 1, for example, falls on three _very_ distinct lines. It was remarkable, frankly, to look at the patterns that show up in the forms. I've completed Pinans 1-5 and Katas 1-6.

Seeing relationships in the places for the footwork really is cool. I don't know if there is necessarily a relationship, but at least in pinan 1, using the process I did, the similarities between what we found and the symbol _ki_ are uncanny. When I have time, I'll post how we did it


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## punisher73 (Oct 29, 2009)

Josh Oakley said:


> More or less the same. We use a half-moon stance instead of a front stance. However, I'd like to point out that if you map out even her form, it doesn't fit a perfect "I" either. She ends slightly back from where she begins, and although her footwork isn't 100% the same each step, the pattern is pretty much the same.
> 
> Here's video.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQDGz7CKRCQ&feature=related
> ...


 
It depends on how you understand the concept of "embusen" in japanese arts.  Some will say that when done correctly you DO start and end in the same spot and you adjust your stances and footwork to make that happen.  Others define embussen as the "path" that the kata takes.  Either way, it is an "I" pattern (althought the sides are more extended).


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## Josh Oakley (Oct 29, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> It depends on how you understand the concept of "embusen" in japanese arts. Some will say that when done correctly you DO start and end in the same spot and you adjust your stances and footwork to make that happen. Others define embussen as the "path" that the kata takes. Either way, it is an "I" pattern (althought the sides are more extended).


 

The only way I can see beginning and ending in the same spot is if you change the lengths, or angles, of half-moons within the form. Then I could see it. But if you're telling me you'll begin and end in exactly the same spot using the same exact half-moon stance , I'll tell you it's not possible.

If you have a fax, I can send my work. PM me. But I used a ruler and square; everything is exact. If the conditions are that everything is supposed to be exact _and_ it's supposed to begin and end in the same spot, it can't be done.

However, I do want to go research old military formations to see if they match up. that would be really interesting. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## Josh Oakley (Oct 29, 2009)

But I will concede that if the concept is to begin and end in the same spot by adjusting, then that makes sense.


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## punisher73 (Oct 30, 2009)

Josh Oakley said:


> But I will concede that if the concept is to begin and end in the same spot by adjusting, then that makes sense.


 
That is why I said it depends one your understanding of embusen.  Some think that you HAVE to start and end on the same spot and for "performance" purposes you DO adjust your stances/footwork to make sure you end in the same spot.  Others approach embusen as the path that a kata takes, thus relating Pinan 1 to an "I" pattern even though it is not an exact pattern.

There are some katas though (Isshin-ryu's seisan comes to mind) that if you perform it with the proper stances and footwork you will end in the same spot.

You can also look into the relationship of kung fu sets and their use of a straight line to utilize their training hall space (long and linear) vs. changing of angles and directions (ending close to the same spot) to utilize the smaller training area found in okinawa/japanese dojos.

I'll shoot you a PM, I would love to see your work.


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## shaolinmonkmark (Jan 7, 2010)

pinan 1 in skk is at 2:54 mark.
you will also see some other forms as well)




 
grab a youtubedownloader and have fun.


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## shaolinmonkmark (Jan 7, 2010)

pinan2 is at 4:20 (no pun intended )


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## Jdokan (Jan 7, 2010)

Josh Oakley said:


> The only way I can see beginning and ending in the same spot is if you change the lengths, or angles, of half-moons within the form. Then I could see it. But if you're telling me you'll begin and end in exactly the same spot using the same exact half-moon stance , I'll tell you it's not possible.
> 
> If you have a fax, I can send my work. PM me. But I used a ruler and square; everything is exact. If the conditions are that everything is supposed to be exact _and_ it's supposed to begin and end in the same spot, it can't be done.
> 
> However, I do want to go research old military formations to see if they match up. that would be really interesting. Thanks for the suggestion.




Being an Original USSD guy I can tell you from the beginning....the pinions do not end on the start point....you end up 1 width different.....I'd be interested if your Instructor was/is somebody I know....I'll check out your site....
Peace.


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## mwd0818 (Jan 8, 2010)

I agree that at least the way SKK does the forms, you don't start and end on the same spot on 1 Pinan.  There is a way to make the form "fit" if you wanted to do it that way, but it changes some of the structure.  I've had classes redesign 1 Pinan to start and end on a spot, but it was more an exercise in understanding stance relationships than anything else - it was not the intent of the form.


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## shaolinmonkmark (Jan 8, 2010)

mwd0818 said:


> I agree that at least the way SKK does the forms, you don't start and end on the same spot on 1 Pinan. There is a way to make the form "fit" if you wanted to do it that way, but it changes some of the structure. I've had classes redesign 1 Pinan to start and end on a spot, but it was more an exercise in understanding stance relationships than anything else - it was not the intent of the form.


 

i concur with you, Mr. Doyle.


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## LawDog (Jan 17, 2010)

The early SKK forms did not end up in the same place as you started from, this was not their intent. You were supposted to end up facing the same direction as when you first started. You were supposed to end up at a certain location.
As far as the stances go, most colored belts and even some black belts, have one stance width when the strong side is forward and another when the weak side is forward. The reason for knowing your exact ending point was all about angles and stance width. By simply turning the wrong angle you would end up in the wrong place. 
The most common problem found was the strong side forward vs weak side forward,(different widths). Even during the pivoting footwork the various pivoting stance widths would change.
All of this would place you in the incorrect ending location / direction.


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## Xinglu (Jan 22, 2010)

Which symbol for qi/ki are we talking about? 
1. &#27683; 
2. &#27668;
3. &#12365;	
4. &#27671;

I don't see it in any of them....  Number three is the closest IMHO, but that would be a real stretch....


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## shaolinmonkmark (Feb 24, 2010)

Xinglu,
please explain, mate?


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## Yondanchris (Jul 30, 2010)

shaolinmonkmark said:


> pinan 1 in skk is at 2:54 mark.
> you will also see some other forms as well)
> 
> 
> ...


 
Prof. Cerio looks like he is "jumping" instead of Half-mooning in his demonstration of the Pinians.. 

My Humble and Ignorant .02 cents

Chris


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## Yondanchris (Aug 24, 2010)

LawDog said:


> The early SKK forms did not end up in the same place as you started from, this was not their intent. You were supposted to end up facing the same direction as when you first started. You were supposed to end up at a certain location.
> As far as the stances go, most colored belts and even some black belts, have one stance width when the strong side is forward and another when the weak side is forward. The reason for knowing your exact ending point was all about angles and stance width. By simply turning the wrong angle you would end up in the wrong place.
> The most common problem found was the strong side forward vs weak side forward,(different widths). Even during the pivoting footwork the various pivoting stance widths would change.
> All of this would place you in the incorrect ending location / direction.


 
yup, I cant tell you how many times students have tried to end up in the same spot and really get frazzled when they can't!!


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## Josh Oakley (Oct 2, 2010)

Nidanchris said:


> yup, I cant tell you how many times students have tried to end up in the same spot and really get frazzled when they can't!!


 
My old instructor did that to us on purpose. He told us to make our form start and end at the same point using perfect half-moons. 

After about thirty attempts, he said, "The reason you can't do it is it's impossible. Then he made us measure it out and tape out our forms on the ground.


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## Jdokan (Oct 2, 2010)

I move around so much when I do my forms I could NEVER end up in the same spot....


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## Josh Oakley (Oct 4, 2010)

Jdokan said:


> I move around so much when I do my forms I could NEVER end up in the same spot....



Well, for a couple, you're SUPPOSED to begin and end in the same place. Kata 5, for instance, and that bit of information came directly from George pesare.


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## punisher73 (Oct 4, 2010)

Nidanchris said:


> Prof. Cerio looks like he is "jumping" instead of Half-mooning in his demonstration of the Pinians..
> 
> My Humble and Ignorant .02 cents
> 
> Chris


 
But, if you watch closely, he ends almost in the exact spot that he started the form in.


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## Jdokan (Jan 13, 2011)

Josh Oakley said:


> Well, for a couple, you're SUPPOSED to begin and end in the same place. Kata 5, for instance, and that bit of information came directly from George pesare.


If a form was designed to do that...then I guess it matters...if the intent was to teach consistency in footwork...My point is that I no longer focus on getting my footwork to be exact...as long as the stance is correct...BUT then that's me and why I'm a free agent and part of a team...


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## Jdokan (Jan 13, 2011)

Jdokan said:


> If a form was designed to do that...then I guess it matters...if the intent was to teach consistency in footwork...My point is that I no longer focus on getting my footwork to be exact...as long as the stance is correct...BUT then that's me and why I'm a free agent and *NOT* part of a team...


funny how leaving out one word changes everything.....24 inches of snow has left me a little groggy..."sorry 'bout that chief"


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