# Apologize? I would have tackled them!



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 15, 2011)

I actually feel sympathy for Alaska Airlines:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/15/airline-apologizes-for-plane-prayer-scare/?iref=NS1



> Alaska Airlines has apologized for a weekend incident  in which three Orthodox Jewish businessmen triggered security concerns  by conducting a prayer ritual on board a flight to Los Angeles.
> The men began praying out loud in Hebrew shortly after takeoff on  Flight 241 from Mexico City. Flight attendants alerted the flight deck,  which then called the tower and alerted law enforcement. When the plane  arrived at Los Angeles International Airport, it was met by the FBI,  Customs and Border Protection and airport police.


But wait, there's more...


> Flight attendants instructed everyone to stay seated with their  seatbelts fastened as the aircraft flew through turbulence shortly after  takeoff. The three passengers *disregarded repeated requests*, however,  and stood up several times to retrieve objects from their luggage in the  overhead bin that the crew had never seen, including small black boxes  fastened with what appeared to be black tape. The crew learned after the  plane landed that these were tefillin boxes worn during the prayer  ritual.
> The men *prayed aloud together in a language unfamiliar to the crew*  while wearing *what appeared to be black tape and wires strapped to their  forearms and foreheads and wires on their chests*. Their actions and  behavior made some other travelers and the crew uneasy. The three  passengers responded, but provided very little explanation, to a flight  attendants questions about the tefillin boxes and what they were doing.


Yes, I know what Tefillin is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tefillin

And this has happened before on airplanes.  I remember reading about a similar incident a couple years back.

However; I don't much care who is doing the praying or what they're praying about.  Strapping little boxes to their heads whilst chanting and ignoring safety instructions gets you tackled and tied down, in my opinion.  I'll apologize later, after we land; I have no intentions of being blown to little tiny bits because I'm afraid to offend someone's religious practices.  Too bad for them; the airplane is not the place for it.  Jewish, Muslim, Christian, whatever.  Knock that crap off whilst on the plane, please.

I've only had one experience with someone wearing this religious article.  I was trying to walk from a hotel parking garage to the main hotel, and there was a narrow passageway I had to walk down.  One of the men wearing this was literally standing in front of the only exit, eyes shut, bowing and chanting, with this on his head.  He utterly ignored everyone who was trying to get past him, he had completely blocked the doorway.  People were trying to get his attention, he pretended he could not hear them and chanted louder.  I finally pushed him out of the way.  Sorry if I offended you, sir, but I need to get by and frankly, you don't have the right to block the doorway just because you chose that moment to respond to some religious requirement you have.  I'm all for the right to do whatever you need to do, but don't get in my way and don't freak me out on a plane, thanks.


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## Empty Hands (Mar 15, 2011)

While I understand the concern, this:





is clearly not a man wearing a bomb.  A little religious education would do everyone some good, and at least prevent unnecessary panic.  

That said, they certainly didn't acquit themselves well.  Some sort of charge sounds appropriate, although it had better not be one of these new, ridiculous terrorism-related charges that we've invented in the past 10 years.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 15, 2011)

or, they could NOT be asshats and do this silly **** ON A PLANE and scare the living crap out of everyone on the plane


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 15, 2011)

You may find it silly, but they take it seriously. What they should have done was explain clearly to the crew what they were going to do.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 15, 2011)

at the least.....


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 15, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> While I understand the concern, this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I do not know how the people on the plane in question were dressed.  However, I have spent plenty of time in NYC, and we also have a Hasidic community here in Detroit; some dress somewhat more, er, conservatively than that.  All black, black hats, huge long black beards, sidelocks, and so on.  It can get a little intimidating-looking.  Now have them all chanting at a loud volume, ignoring instructions from the crew and doing some of the things they were said to have done, like all go to the bathroom at the same time, with one guy 'standing guard' while the other two used the facilities...ah, that's not something I'd be feeling comfortable with.

And I'd react the same way if they rolled out prayer rugs and started chants to Allah with little boxes strapped to their heads.  Or to Vishnu.  Whatever.


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 15, 2011)

Chance of dying in a terrorist attack: approximately 1 in 650,000 - and this is all terrorist attacks. I found no data for terrorist attacks on planes only.

Situations that are more common by at least an order of magnitude: getting a hole in one, bowling a 300 game, fatally slipping in the shower, dying in a car crash, being murdered (not terrorist), getting away with murder, finding a 4-leaf clover on the first try, dying from suicide, dying in a fall and dying from a catastrophic collision with an asteroid in the next 100 years.

The chances that the crackpot praying with a phylactery on his head, or a tinfoil hat to protect him from alien control, is gonna blow up the plane are astronomically low. It's this kind of thinking that's responsible for the TSA agent fondling me whenever I travel.

I wish we'd all just settle down a bit. Or at least hire better looking TSA agents.


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## Empty Hands (Mar 15, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I do not know how the people on the plane in question were dressed.



Right, I was getting at the tefilin themselves, I didn't mean to imply that the men were all dressed in shawls and yarmulkes.  My point is that the tefilin are obviously not explosives, and a little education would help anyone realize what they are when confronted with someone wearing one.  That isn't meant to excuse their behavior, it was clearly a problem.

What I find funny is that my first and longest exposure to phylacteries was from Dungeons & Dragons, it's what a lich wears to preserve its undead life.  Imagine my confusion when I read about Jews wearing phylacteries when I was much older.


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 15, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> What I find funny is that my first and longest exposure to phylacteries was from Dungeons & Dragons, it's what a lich wears to preserve its undead life.  Imagine my confusion when I read about Jews wearing phylacteries when I was much older.



+1 for geek solidarity


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 15, 2011)

bushidomartialarts said:


> Chance of dying in a terrorist attack: approximately 1 in 650,000 - and this is all terrorist attacks. I found no data for terrorist attacks on planes only.
> 
> Situations that are more common by at least an order of magnitude: getting a hole in one, bowling a 300 game, fatally slipping in the shower, dying in a car crash, being murdered (not terrorist), getting away with murder, finding a 4-leaf clover on the first try, dying from suicide, dying in a fall and dying from a catastrophic collision with an asteroid in the next 100 years.
> 
> ...



I wish people understood statistics a bit better.

The odds are low as applied to a group.  Not applicable to individuals.  Let's put it another way.

The odds of winning a raffle are low.  But someone will win the raffle.  Would you like to be that person?  If you don't buy a ticket, you can't be, you've excluded yourself from that group.

The odds of getting cancer are low.  But someone will get cancer.  Would you like to be that person?  If you smoke, you might be increasing the risk that you are that person, but you can't exclude yourself from the group that might get cancer no matter what you do.

The odds of being in a bar fight are low.  Lower for an individual who never goes in bars.  Higher for a person who does.  Higher still for a person who goes into bars in certain cities, and certain neighborhoods.  The odds for the individual vary quite a bit based on lots of factors, but the only way to exclude oneself from the risk group is to not go in bars.

The odds of dying in a terrorist attack are of course very low.  But people die in terrorist attacks.  There are risk factors that make it more or less likely that you, as an individual, will be a member of the group that represents the victims of terrorist attacks.  Certain occupations, such as a member of a military stationed in a war zone, or living in a particular geographical area, or being a passenger in a conveyance struck by terrorists such as bus, train, plane, or enroute to or from same, such as an airport terminal, etc.  Again, you might be able to eliminate yourself from the risk group by not traveling, but if you travel, your risk is higher than a member of the general public.

All this said means this - companies sell insurance because the members of a risk group represent a predictable cost which can be offset by charging more for a premium than the anticipated payout will be.  People buy insurance despite the fact that they have a low risk in the aggregate because if they happen to be the one ill fortune befalls, they wish to have the benefits of insurance applied to them.

By the same token, the chances of me being in a plane attacked by terrorists is quite low.  But if I detect people behaving in an odd or frightening way on a plane, and ignoring employee instructions to sit down, etc, I'm going to have a problem with it.  The 'odds' have very little to do with it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 15, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> Right, I was getting at the tefilin themselves, I didn't mean to imply that the men were all dressed in shawls and yarmulkes.  My point is that the tefilin are obviously not explosives, and a little education would help anyone realize what they are when confronted with someone wearing one.  That isn't meant to excuse their behavior, it was clearly a problem.



I don't think they are 'obviously' not explosives.  And asking every airline passenger to be up-to-date on the religious practices of some rather obscure sects (and yes, tefilim wearers are quite rare) is asking a bit much.  There is simply no need for them to perform their rituals on the plane and especially not to ignore airline employee instructions.

Let me put it this way - if the flight attendant tells ME to sit down and I ignore him or her, I get hog-tied and handed over to the FBI when we land.  But if I'm ignoring them for religious reasons it's OK?  Not seeing that.



> What I find funny is that my first and longest exposure to phylacteries was from Dungeons & Dragons, it's what a lich wears to preserve its undead life.  Imagine my confusion when I read about Jews wearing phylacteries when I was much older.



Yeah, never did the D&D thing.  For that matter, I'm an IT guy who doesn't play computer games.  Never have.  I don't get the idea of why they're supposed to be entertaining.  No Gameboy, Xbox, or PlayStation for me.  Never had 'em.


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 15, 2011)

The "it matters to this starfish" argument doesn't indicate not understanding statistics. It indicates having a different set of values.

Had the airline trained their staff better on identifying dangerous behavior, this would never have happened. 

On the other hand, if I decide to blow up a plane I'm definitely planting a bomb in a phylactery after this.


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## granfire (Mar 15, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Yeah, never did the D&D thing.  For that matter, I'm an IT guy who doesn't play computer games.  Never have.  I don't get the idea of why they're supposed to be entertaining.  No Gameboy, Xbox, or PlayStation for me.  Never had 'em.




GASP!!!

<feint>


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## MJS (Mar 15, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> While I understand the concern, this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I'm going to respectfully disagree with you.  First, its not my job to learn about every single religion out there, except for the one I choose to practice.  Second, given the fact that these **** bag terrorists will use every trick in the book to smuggle explosives on board a plane, yeah, I'd be a bit on edge if I saw guys that're in this pic. on a plane.


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## MJS (Mar 15, 2011)

bushidomartialarts said:


> Chance of dying in a terrorist attack: approximately 1 in 650,000 - and this is all terrorist attacks. I found no data for terrorist attacks on planes only.
> 
> Situations that are more common by at least an order of magnitude: getting a hole in one, bowling a 300 game, fatally slipping in the shower, dying in a car crash, being murdered (not terrorist), getting away with murder, finding a 4-leaf clover on the first try, dying from suicide, dying in a fall and dying from a catastrophic collision with an asteroid in the next 100 years.
> 
> ...


 
And I'll respectfully disagree with this as well.  IMHO, its the relaxed type of attitude that people have, that the terrorist dirtbags take advantage of.  Seems to me there've been quite a few terror attempts lately.  That being said, I'd rather be more cautions than think it'll never happen.


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## MJS (Mar 15, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I actually feel sympathy for Alaska Airlines:
> 
> http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/15/airline-apologizes-for-plane-prayer-scare/?iref=NS1
> 
> ...


 
IMO, given the strong effects 9-11 had on people, I for one, wouldn't offer any apology for anything.  I mean really, did these idiots actually think that by doing this stuff, that it wouldnt cause a stir?  Are they that dumb?  Apparently so, or they just dont give a ****.  I may say a silent prayer to myself when I fly, hoping that we all have a safe trip.  But I dont disregard the flight attendants, get up when I'm not supposed to, pray loud enough for the others to hear me and in another language and strap weird looking things to myself.  

Sorry, doing stuff like that, is just inviting an *** whoopin!


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## David43515 (Mar 15, 2011)

bushidomartialarts said:


> The "it matters to this starfish" argument doesn't indicate not understanding statistics. It indicates having a different set of values.
> 
> *Had the airline trained their staff better on identifying dangerous behavior, this would never have happened. *
> 
> On the other hand, if I decide to blow up a plane I'm definitely planting a bomb in a phylactery after this.


 
I would say that ignoring the instructions of the flight crew IS dangerous behavior. That`s why it is usually considered a crime as well.


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 15, 2011)

David43515 said:


> I would say that ignoring the instructions of the flight crew IS dangerous behavior. That`s why it is usually considered a crime as well.



This is a lot like use of force situations. The best use of force training teaches police how to avoid escalating a confrontation into a fight.

Had the flight crew been educated on this kind of behavior, they may not have needed to take it further.

On the other hand, I'm not discounting the possibility that these guys were being asshats and would have pushed the situation regardless.


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## Ken Morgan (Mar 15, 2011)

Perhaps a dumb question but is there specific times of the day when those of the Hebrew or Muslim faith HAVE to pray? Like they get kicked out of the club, or get a penalty or something if they don't? Can it be made up for later, no problems? Surely there must be circumstances when you can't pray at the time as your community requires you to do.

There needs to be some common sense, you're on a friggn airplane, what till it lands.


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## granfire (Mar 15, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> Perhaps a dumb question but is there specific times of the day when those of the Hebrew or Muslim faith HAVE to pray? Like they get kicked out of the club, or get a penalty or something if they don't? Can it be made up for later, no problems? Surely there must be circumstances when you can't pray at the time as your community requires you to do.
> 
> There needs to be some common sense, you're on a friggn airplane, what till it lands.



I am sure there are provisions for make-up prayers though....


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## LuckyKBoxer (Mar 16, 2011)

MJS said:


> IMO, given the strong effects 9-11 had on people, I for one, wouldn't offer any apology for anything. I mean really, did these idiots actually think that by doing this stuff, that it wouldnt cause a stir? Are they that dumb? Apparently so, or they just dont give a ****. I may say a silent prayer to myself when I fly, hoping that we all have a safe trip. But I dont disregard the flight attendants, get up when I'm not supposed to, pray loud enough for the others to hear me and in another language and strap weird looking things to myself.
> 
> Sorry, doing stuff like that, is just inviting an *** whoopin!


obviously most of us, myself included, think this action is bat **** crazy...
but I am sure these guys hang out with a bunch of other guys who do the same exact thing, see it in virtually all their social gatherings and do not think its wierd.
I would venture to guess they are not dumb as much as they are ignorant to other people.... just a guess though


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 16, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> obviously most of us, myself included, think this action is bat **** crazy...
> but I am sure these guys hang out with a bunch of other guys who do the same exact thing, see it in virtually all their social gatherings and do not think its wierd.
> I would venture to guess they are not dumb as much as they are ignorant to other people.... just a guess though



Fair point. A lot of orthodox religious groups do tend to be....insular.


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## Phenix_Rider (Mar 16, 2011)

bushidomartialarts said:


> Had the airline trained their staff better on identifying dangerous behavior, this would never have happened.


 
It still would have happened. These guys would still be pricks, and the other passengers would still be spooked. The ONLY thing that would have changed is that the flight crew would have made another dumb announcement saying "It's okay, our lawyers say we have to be nice to the kooks. Please don't panic."


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## CanuckMA (Mar 16, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> Perhaps a dumb question but is there specific times of the day when those of the Hebrew or Muslim faith HAVE to pray? Like they get kicked out of the club, or get a penalty or something if they don't? Can it be made up for later, no problems? Surely there must be circumstances when you can't pray at the time as your community requires you to do.
> 
> There needs to be some common sense, you're on a friggn airplane, what till it lands.


 

Yes, there is a specific time. Actually a range, but airline schedules may make it impossible to not pray while in flight. They would have been wearing a kippa, all the time, and would have put on a tallit. Morning individual prayer takes about 10 minutes. I don't think it's too much to ask that flight crews have a basic understanding of rituals they may encounter on board.

The prayers must be said. They don't have to be shoulted, but be at least audible. When done individually, it usually comes out as a mumble. Congregating near the washroom usually occurs on North and Southbound flights, as we pray facing East and the washroom/galley areas are the only place in the plane where we can turn in that direction. On  East or West bound flights, we'll jut face the front or back of the plane.

Not all Orthodox men look like Hasidim. A lot of times you could not pick me out of a crowd. I dress conservatively but not in a black suit. I have a braed, trimmed. While I do wear my sideburns longer than most, they do not stand out. And at times will just wear a baseball cap, or any other type of hat.

While in hindsight they could have let the flight crew know what they were about to do, it is something that is so natural and ingrained in our daily life that we do not think it is anything unusual.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Mar 16, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> While in hindsight they could have let the flight crew know what they were about to do, it is something that is so natural and ingrained in our daily life that we do not think it is anything unusual.


 
That's an interesting comment.  Not being judgemental about it, I would find it curious if anyone had said it.

You see, I do alot of things that are ingrained.  When in public, in a restaurant for instance, I sit with my back to the wall, always facing with a view to the front door / cash register area.  It's something that I do without thinking.  But I recognize that most people don't do it.  

I sometimes go off into my own little world while waiting (in a line, in the doctor's office, etc.) and do some minor martial arts thing.  It's a habit that just occurs.  But that doesn't mean that I don't get that people look at me funny when I do it.  

How is it that these individuals could do something so out of the norm for the society in which they live, and not understand that it could be singled out as peculiar (no matter what the interpretation of the actual behavior).


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## MJS (Mar 16, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> obviously most of us, myself included, think this action is bat **** crazy...
> but I am sure these guys hang out with a bunch of other guys who do the same exact thing, see it in virtually all their social gatherings and do not think its wierd.
> I would venture to guess they are not dumb as much as they are ignorant to other people.... just a guess though


 
Yes, you make a valid point.  My point was simply perhaps there's a time and place for everything.  Sure, you hang out with people who share similar beliefs, habits,etc., yes, of course you're not going to see anything wrong with it.  But its common sense.  Just because a family lets their kids act like wild animals at home, jumping and climbing all over the furniture with their shoes on, doesnt mean that when they come to my house, I'm going to automatically share their views.  Again, a time and place, and my house is neither the time nor the place.   Just like the plane wasn't the time or the place.


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## MJS (Mar 16, 2011)

bushidomartialarts said:


> The "it matters to this starfish" argument doesn't indicate not understanding statistics. It indicates having a different set of values.
> 
> Had the airline trained their staff better on identifying dangerous behavior, this would never have happened.
> 
> On the other hand, if I decide to blow up a plane I'm definitely planting a bomb in a phylactery after this.


 
Well, I'll give you part of that....training for ALL airline employees is certainly in need.  Just look at all the TSA threads that're posted on here. LOL.  But as others have said, this no doubt still would've happened.  

Lets say there was better training.  Then what?  The only people that would've known what was going on, was possibly the airline employees.  As I said, its not the job of the average Joe public, to learn and know about every single religion in the world.  So, if there was better training, what would or should the airline people have done?  Nothing?  Made an announcement to the passengers?  "Ladies and Gentlemen.  You'll notice a group of men seated in section 2, seats a,b,c.  They're going to begin chanting and acting weird, disregarding all of our instructions, and strapping things to their bodies.  But have no fear.  Everything is ok."  Sorry, thats what I grab my **** and get the hell off the plane or tackle the guys who're not doing what 95% of the plane is doing.


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## jks9199 (Mar 16, 2011)

The problem is actually simple.  The religious artifacts only compounded it.  

They refused to comply with the reasonable directions of the flight crew to remain in their seats, with the seatbelts on.  They then did further acts that added to the suspicion.

The flight crew had a duty to report it, just like I have the duty to investigate a possible crime.  Would things have been helped had the flight crew been aware of the religious ritual?  Sure.  But there was still a combination of specific actions that led to reasonable and articulable suspicions.  The flight crew reported their concerns, and the law enforcement authorities on the ground conducted an investigation.  When the situation was understood and the suspicions allayed, the travelers went on their way.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 16, 2011)

Likely because of scheduling, it was the time and the plane happenned to be the place. I'm not going to try to explain why it is of prime importance. It just is. 

And if the crew was trained, when a passenger raised concerns, they could have explained what is happening. 

Training does not have to delve deep into religions. It's rather simple, Jews pray 3 times, morning, late afternoon and evening. Morning prayers involve a prayer shawl and little boxes on their forehead and left arm. That's it. No more training than that is really needed.


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## punisher73 (Mar 16, 2011)

Ok, maybe I'm missing a big part of this.  How many flights have people of this religion taken?  How many times have the airlines had a problem with this?  This is the first one I can think of or heard of that makes me wonder two things.

1) They obviously weren't the first ones to fly during their prayer time.  Do they HAVE to kneel on the floor blocking the aisles or could it be done while seating?

2) It sounds like they _wanted _to draw attention to themselves by ignoring request to be in their seats like everyone else was required to do, and kneeling in the aisles.

While working with alot of INS detainees.  I also was in charge of alot of Muslim people.  They were all devote, but some of them would do their prayers in private so they wouldn't be disturbed or make a scene.  There were others who always chose to do their prayers in a public area of the jail to make it known what they were doing.  Those guys were also the biggest pains in the butt about all the other rules that they had to obey but didn't want to.  Same thing with many Christians, the ones that make the biggest stink about their religion are usually the biggest pains in the butt about other things non-religious in nature.

Wonder why that is?


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 16, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> Perhaps a dumb question but is there specific times of the day when those of the Hebrew or Muslim faith HAVE to pray? Like they get kicked out of the club, or get a penalty or something if they don't? Can it be made up for later, no problems? Surely there must be circumstances when you can't pray at the time as your community requires you to do.
> 
> There needs to be some common sense, you're on a friggn airplane, what till it lands.



Almost every religion I know of has dispensations for when you CANNOT comply reasonably with the requirements of your faith.  The Jewish faith is, to the best of my knowledge, particularly well-versed in common sense - you do what you must do by law, then attend to your religious requirements as soon as you can later.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 16, 2011)

All but 3 mitzvot can be suspended to save a life. 

Prayers should be done standing. OTOH, I've prayed sitting. However, for morning prayers tallit and teffilin must be worn. 

The greater question is was it the standing, or the putting on of teffilin and praying in a 'strange' language? There is movement in prayer. So it's not like the person can just sit quietly. Parying will attract attention. Better training of flight crews can mitigate this.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 16, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> All but 3 mitzvot can be suspended to save a life.
> 
> Prayers should be done standing. OTOH, I've prayed sitting. However, for morning prayers tallit and teffilin must be worn.
> 
> The greater question is was it the standing, or the putting on of teffilin and praying in a 'strange' language? There is movement in prayer. So it's not like the person can just sit quietly. Parying will attract attention. Better training of flight crews can mitigate this.



The example I witnessed - the man who blocked the door to the hotel I was trying to enter - he was swaying back and forth, chanting in (I presume) Hebrew, with his eyes closed.  He completely ignored all comments and requests to move from in front of the door he was blocking, and when I 'moved' him by shoving as politely as I could, he never acknowledged the fact that I was doing it.  He didn't stop doing what he was doing, and I had to literally shove him out of the way so that I and others could get by him.

I frankly find it difficult to believe that he was required to stand in that very spot; or that he was incapable of responding to polite requests to step aside.  If that's a requirement, then yeah, that's kind of a problem.  On a plane, more so.  I mean what if they guy I ran into had been crossing the street when overcome by the need to begin his prayers?  Is traffic supposed to stop and wait quietly whilst he does his thing?

But as noted; although I have had quite a bit of experience amongst the Orthodox communities, I've seen very few people wearing teffilin or chanting loudly in Hebrew.  It is unusual for most Americans, I'd wager.  Even in communities of Hassidim, you just don't see it that much; either because they mostly perform their religious rituals in private, or because they don't do all those various things.

When my best friend converted to Judaism (reformed), I asked him a lot of questions, because I was curious.  Some of the answers he gave startled me with their sheer common sense and respect for others.  For example, he chose to keep kosher.  But when I asked him if he'd eat pork if it was the only food available, he said of course he would, without hesitation, and he wouldn't feel bad about it either.  He said his first commandment was to preserve his life, to survive.  He also said that if he lived in a town where he was the only clergy and a man died who was of another faith, he was commanded to perform the appropriate ritual for that man's faith if he could, like a chaplain in the military does.  I found that compassionate and very decent.  A religion I can have a lot of respect for.

Point being, even though I have deep respect for Judaism, I am not at all interested in experiencing what these gentlemen appeared to have done on the plane.  Yes, I would have known what they were doing, having seen it before.  But I'm not surprised that most people wouldn't, and it was outrageous - in my opinion - that the men chose to ignore the instructions of the flight crew.  I'd have had them strapped into their seats toot sweet.  Religious requirements come second to passenger safety - or in this case, that perception.


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## crushing (Mar 16, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> While I understand the concern, this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
In the context of the above picture, especially now with the knowledge of what they are, they do not appear to be dangerous.  It doesn't have to be a bomb to be dangerous.  Now imagine three men refusing to follow instructions to remain seated and begin pulling these black _devices_ and _electrical tape_ out of their bags.






This incident also says something about the confidence in the security theater screening procedures prior to the flight.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 16, 2011)

First off, realize that a lot of 'choices' for Reform Jews are not so for Orthodox. And that is the segment you will find praying in public.

As I said earlier, we pray 3 times daily. Morning, afternoon and evening. Dailight hours are divided into 12 'hours'. The 'hour' can be as short as 45 minutes in winter, and as long as 72 minutes in summer. Prayer times are fixed.

Morning prayer must be in the first 4 hours.
Afternoon, between 1/2 hours after noon time to just before nightfall
Evening after nightfall.

While most times they are done at home or in synagogue, it is not always possible for travellers. It is easier in the summer. 

You do not need to stand in a certain spot. I find it hard to imagine why one would need to do it in a hallway, blocking a door. And while standing is prefered, mandatory for some, it is possible to accomodate sitting when absolutely necessary. 

And nothing short of a life threatening emergency will interupt an Orthodox man while he is praying.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 16, 2011)

crushing said:


> In the context of the above picture, especially now with the knowledge of what they are, they do not appear to be dangerous. It doesn't have to be a bomb to be dangerous. Now imagine three men refusing to follow instructions to remain seated and begin pulling these black _devices_ and _electrical tape_ out of their bags.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

It's not tape, they are leather straps.

And you are right, one would think that at least the flight crew should have more confidence that any object allowed on board is safe. 

The greatest hassle is security, as I'm often asked to open them, they are nor designed to be opened regurlaly, and idiot security trying to examine them. These things are fragile and expensive. A decent set of teffilin can cost around $1K.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 16, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> First off, realize that a lot of 'choices' for Reform Jews are not so for Orthodox. And that is the segment you will find praying in public.
> 
> As I said earlier, we pray 3 times daily. Morning, afternoon and evening. Dailight hours are divided into 12 'hours'. The 'hour' can be as short as 45 minutes in winter, and as long as 72 minutes in summer. Prayer times are fixed.
> 
> ...



OK, thanks for the information.  However, whilst being understanding of these requirements and respectful of them to the extent that they do not infringe on my life, well-being, or in cases, just my ability to pass through a simple doorway, I also note that my respect for the religious requirements of others does not extend to the need to be bound by their rules myself.  I will do whatever I can reasonably do to accommodate their needs.  They key, however, is 'reasonable' and I get to decide what that is for me (as others do for theirs).


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## CanuckMA (Mar 16, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> OK, thanks for the information. However, whilst being understanding of these requirements and respectful of them to the extent that they do not infringe on my life, well-being, or in cases, just my ability to pass through a simple doorway, I also note that my respect for the religious requirements of others does not extend to the need to be bound by their rules myself. I will do whatever I can reasonably do to accommodate their needs. They key, however, is 'reasonable' and I get to decide what that is for me (as others do for theirs).


 
That I have to agree with. There is not much that can be done about the plane. If I catch a cross country flight that leaves before sunrise and takes over 4 hours, I'll have to pray in the plane. Once I'm off the plane however, I'll find an unobtrusive corner to pray. It is possible that in your encounter, it was the only place available, but I find it hard to believe. However, if I'm in a public place and have to pray, I expect to not be disturbed providing I'm not impeding traffic or safety.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 16, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> That I have to agree with. There is not much that can be done about the plane. If I catch a cross country flight that leaves before sunrise and takes over 4 hours, I'll have to pray in the plane. Once I'm off the plane however, I'll find an unobtrusive corner to pray. It is possible that in your encounter, it was the only place available, but I find it hard to believe. However, if I'm in a public place and have to pray, I expect to not be disturbed providing I'm not impeding traffic or safety.



Yeah, I didn't get it either.  The guy was standing in the entrance of a doorway that was adjacent to a large empty lobby type room.  About all I could imagine was that maybe he thought it was an alcove and the door would be unused while he stood in it.  But I can't imagine why he could not move once he started and realized that people were lining up trying to get in and out of the door.  A mistake is easy to understand, but a bit less so to close one's eyes and pretend nobody is being inconvenienced by that mistake.  God won't understand if the guy shuffles his feet a few yards over?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I also think that sometimes there is cultural insensitivity that goes both ways.  Here in Detroit, we've had some problems with orthodox folks walking to synagogue in neighborhoods that are no longer as safe as they once where; they've been harassed and even assaulted a few times.  While demanding additional police protection (which is reasonable, I feel), they were also approached by a local Christian church, who offered to give rides and walk with them to synagogue to add 'strength in numbers' as a solidarity offer.  They were rebuffed, in my opinion, rather rudely.  The response?  *"Nobody asked you for help."*  Period.  OK, then.  No help.  Got it.  Good luck to ya.

I respect the Hasidim.  Some of them could use a few lessons in manners, IMHO.  Yes, I know they have their own way - but they live in a society that observes a few other rules, like politeness.  We respect them; they could maybe insert the words 'please' and 'thank you' in a few of their sentences.

I hope you understand, this is not an attack.  Just an observation based on my experiences; cultural understanding and respect goes both ways.


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## crushing (Mar 16, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> It's not tape, they are leather straps.


 
I know, that is why I italicized the words. My comments were in regards to what they were perceived to be.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 16, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Yeah, I didn't get it either. The guy was standing in the entrance of a doorway that was adjacent to a large empty lobby type room. About all I could imagine was that maybe he thought it was an alcove and the door would be unused while he stood in it. But I can't imagine why he could not move once he started and realized that people were lining up trying to get in and out of the door. A mistake is easy to understand, but a bit less so to close one's eyes and pretend nobody is being inconvenienced by that mistake. God won't understand if the guy shuffles his feet a few yards over?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Yeah, I get you. Rides they could not have taken. But walking? There is a precept that I cannot ask a Gentile to perform an action that is prohibited to me, to benefit me. Could the fear that the helper would have, say, pushed the 'walk' button on a traffic light come in play? sure. But it could have been handled better. There is a segment of Orthodoxy that is a bit too insular, and truly don't get that the rest of the world may not understand them.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 16, 2011)

crushing said:


> I know, that is why I italicized the words. My comments were in regards to what they were perceived to be.


 

Which brings us back to the question, had they prayed sitting in their seat, wearing tallit and tefilin and chanting Hebrew, would the reaction been the same? Sadly, I'm inclined to say yes.


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## granfire (Mar 16, 2011)

crushing said:


> In the context of the above picture, especially now with the knowledge of what they are, they do not appear to be dangerous.  It doesn't have to be a bomb to be dangerous.  Now imagine three men refusing to follow instructions to remain seated and begin pulling these black _devices_ and _electrical tape_ out of their bags.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In these times, how can one be sure, if even shoes and underwear are not safe. These things are alien looking....

(however, praying like that on a plane can very well turn into a life threatening even...we are living in interesting times...)


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## Empty Hands (Mar 16, 2011)

crushing said:


> I know, that is why I italicized the words. My comments were in regards to what they were perceived to be.



I understand your point, but I do wonder why anyone would be scared of electrical tape.  It insulates, not conducts, and thus would make a very poor bomb making material.


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## granfire (Mar 16, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> I understand your point, but I do wonder why anyone would be scared of electrical tape.  It insulates, not conducts, and thus would make a very poor bomb making material.




I suppose we watch too much TV: Massive amounts used to tie sticks of dynamite together...


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## Empty Hands (Mar 16, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> There is a segment of Orthodoxy that is a bit too insular, and truly don't get that the rest of the world may not understand them.



There is a certain type of person, of any religious faith, ethnicity or similar, who takes pride in not being a part of the world, in a way that approaches ostentation and arrogance.  I'm sure that such people do not make your life any easier as you attempt to reconcile life in a secular country with restrictive religious requirements.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 16, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> There is a certain type of person, of any religious faith, ethnicity or similar, who takes pride in not being a part of the world, in a way that approaches ostentation and arrogance. I'm sure that such people do not make your life any easier as you attempt to reconcile life in a secular country with restrictive religious requirements.


 

It's not so much that they take pride in it, it's more that in a large way they don't have to. They live and work in small, mostly self contained, communities. 

Thet are not the ones that make it easier. On the contrary, it's the more liberal individuals that make it harder to reconcile secular and religious. ry explaining to your boss that I have to be home before sundown on Friday and that I'm not available on Saturday, when he'll just retort "well, David there is also a Jew and works Saturdays". Or worse yet whe the boss himself is a secular Jew. I've had much easier time working for devout Xtians than secular Jews. The Xtians may not 'get' my religion, but they do understand religious commitments.


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## jks9199 (Mar 16, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I also think that sometimes there is cultural insensitivity that goes both ways.  Here in Detroit, we've had some problems with orthodox folks walking to synagogue in neighborhoods that are no longer as safe as they once where; they've been harassed and even assaulted a few times.  While demanding additional police protection (which is reasonable, I feel), they were also approached by a local Christian church, who offered to give rides and walk with them to synagogue to add 'strength in numbers' as a solidarity offer.  They were rebuffed, in my opinion, rather rudely.  The response?  *"Nobody asked you for help."*  Period.  OK, then.  No help.  Got it.  Good luck to ya.
> 
> I respect the Hasidim.  Some of them could use a few lessons in manners, IMHO.  Yes, I know they have their own way - but they live in a society that observes a few other rules, like politeness.  We respect them; they could maybe insert the words 'please' and 'thank you' in a few of their sentences.
> 
> I hope you understand, this is not an attack.  Just an observation based on my experiences; cultural understanding and respect goes both ways.



If they are very orthodox, they cannot accept a ride on the Sabbath, absent extreme emergencies, as I understand it.  I forget all the details, but as part of honoring the Sabbath they don't work or cause others to work unnecessarily -- and some interpretations go so far as to say turning on a light bulb is work.


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## crushing (Mar 16, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> I understand your point, but I do wonder why anyone would be scared of electrical tape. It insulates, not conducts, and thus would make a very poor bomb making material.


 
On occasion, people have been known to connect pieces or lengths of conductive material with strips of insulating material.    For kicks I googled electrical tape bomb and found some interesting projects.


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## Empty Hands (Mar 16, 2011)

crushing said:


> For kicks I googled electrical tape bomb and found some interesting projects.



You may hear a sudden knock on the door in the next few minutes.


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## KELLYG (Mar 16, 2011)

I have never seen teffilin before. I think that it would have freaked me out.  That and not obeying the commands of the flight attendants would probably freaked me out further.  However, if I was instructed as to what they were doing and why, then I would say go for it, as long as it did not hurt anyone or cause a hazardous situation.  Thanks for this thread I learned a lot.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 16, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> If they are very orthodox, they cannot accept a ride on the Sabbath, absent extreme emergencies, as I understand it. I forget all the details, but as part of honoring the Sabbath they don't work or cause others to work unnecessarily -- and some interpretations go so far as to say turning on a light bulb is work.


 
Something like that. It gets very complex and technical, there is a reason why we produce so many lawyers :ultracool

It's not work per say. I can move a piano from room to room all day on Shabbat, but I can't turn on a light. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activities_prohibited_on_Shabbat is a good explanation.

The light thing comes from the idea that we are not allowed to complete someyhing, and throwing a switch completes the circuit. Incadescent bulbs also fall under the prohibition of cooking.

Work started prior to Shabbat can continue. That's why I can leave a crock pot on, or a light burning. It's also how using a timer on a light is permitted. It is set in motion prior to Shabbat. 

I'm also not permitted to ask someone to do prohibited to me. I can't knock on my neighbours door on Friday night and ask hime to come turn on a light. 

All but three of the 613 commendments can be broken to directly save a life. The 3 are: desecrating the name of G-d, taking of a life unless in self defense or doing a prohibited sexual act. 

The rules around the taking a life are interesting, and when explained the right way sound very much like the Three Laws of Robotics, not so surpringly.


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## jks9199 (Mar 16, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> Something like that. It gets very complex and technical, there is a reason why we produce so many lawyers :ultracool
> 
> It's not work per say. I can move a piano from room to room all day on Shabbat, but I can't turn on a light.
> 
> ...


Thanks.  I knew it was complicated; there was an issue recently in the DC area with some sort of real estate boundary related to Sabbath activities, and there was an extensive article about it.  I knew that some observant Jews essentially set up everything on Friday afternoon so that they wouldn't have to turn lights on, cook, etc. on Saturday.


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## granfire (Mar 16, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> Something like that. It gets very complex and technical, there is a reason why we produce so many lawyers :ultracool
> 
> It's not work per say. I can move a piano from room to room all day on Shabbat, but I can't turn on a light.
> 
> ...




I suppose cussing and getting it on does not necessarily save lives...

But pardon me a really dumb question: If you can't cook....what about the coffee?
Make it Friday and hope the thermos keeps it fresh (oh, yeah, the time...  never mind then)


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## granfire (Mar 16, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> You may hear a sudden knock on the door in the next few minutes.


No kidding....


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## CanuckMA (Mar 16, 2011)

granfire said:


> I suppose cussing and getting it on does not necessarily save lives...
> 
> But pardon me a really dumb question: If you can't cook....what about the coffee?
> Make it Friday and hope the thermos keeps it fresh (oh, yeah, the time...  never mind then)


 

Coffee, make it Friday or do without.

In the winter, the typical Saturday lunch meal is cholent, a slow cooked stew, started Friday before sundown in a crockpot.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 16, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Thanks. I knew it was complicated; there was an issue recently in the DC area with some sort of real estate boundary related to Sabbath activities, and there was an extensive article about it. I knew that some observant Jews essentially set up everything on Friday afternoon so that they wouldn't have to turn lights on, cook, etc. on Saturday.


 

What you are likely refering to is called an Eruv. Essentially, you can't carry between domains, private and public. There is also a restriction on how far you can walk. An Eruv is an 'enclosed boundary designated as a private domain where you can walk and carry. In an urban environment, something is trung usually around the light poles. The wire must be contigous, and someeone is responsible to walk the length of the Eruv friday afternoon to ensure it's not broken.

It's complex, but you get used to it. 

There is somethng absolutely about a mandated day where all normal activities are suspended. It just slows you down and helps you focus and friends and family.


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## MJS (Mar 16, 2011)

granfire said:


> In these times, how can one be sure, if even shoes and underwear are not safe. These things are alien looking....
> 
> (however, praying like that on a plane can very well turn into a life threatening even...we are living in interesting times...)


 
Exactly!  I think thats the point some of us are trying to make.  Nowadays, these guys can turn pretty much anything into a bomb.  Who would've thought they'd try to put a bomb in a pair of shoes.


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## jks9199 (Mar 16, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> What you are likely refering to is called an Eruv. Essentially, you can't carry between domains, private and public. There is also a restriction on how far you can walk. An Eruv is an 'enclosed boundary designated as a private domain where you can walk and carry. In an urban environment, something is trung usually around the light poles. The wire must be contigous, and someeone is responsible to walk the length of the Eruv friday afternoon to ensure it's not broken.
> 
> It's complex, but you get used to it.
> 
> There is somethng absolutely about a mandated day where all normal activities are suspended. It just slows you down and helps you focus and friends and family.


There is at that.

I do think it was an eruv; apparently, as I recall, there were some zoning changes or road construction that was complicating the ability to make that contiguous perimeter.  In fact, I think dug up the article.


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## granfire (Mar 16, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> Coffee, make it Friday or do without.
> 
> In the winter, the typical Saturday lunch meal is cholent, a slow cooked stew, started Friday before sundown in a crockpot.



(do without coffee?! )

I bet the stew is awesome... 

can I come over for latkes though? I promise I bring Geld... (I know, long time off still)


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## CanuckMA (Mar 16, 2011)

Stew is awesome.

Latkes are arteries clogging monsters. We also produce a lot of doctors because the diet can be unhealthy.

I mean, the year is peppered with holidays that can prety much be all summed up the same way: Someone tried to wipe us out, we kicked their butts, let's eat.

RoshHaShana and Yom Kippur ar the notsable execptions. 

RH is more like: Yeah, New Year, let's eat.
YK is a lot more complex: We're about to fast 25 hours, let's eat. followed by a long fast then, we've just fasted 25 hours, let's eat.

Detect a pattern??


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## granfire (Mar 17, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> Stew is awesome.
> 
> Latkes are arteries clogging monsters. We also produce a lot of doctors because the diet can be unhealthy.
> 
> ...


Let's eat!

(I think Chanuka (sp?) with the oil is the kicker tho)

can you eat the Latkes with apple sauce? Or put some salmon, shrimp and horseradish sauce with it? Creamed of course?


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## Archangel M (Mar 17, 2011)

Start chanting and ignoring commands on a plane these days? You deserve what you get.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 17, 2011)

granfire said:


> Let's eat!
> 
> (I think Chanuka (sp?) with the oil is the kicker tho)
> 
> can you eat the Latkes with apple sauce? Or put some salmon, shrimp and horseradish sauce with it? Creamed of course?


 

Latkes are usually eaten with either apple sauce or sour cream.


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## MJS (Mar 17, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> That I have to agree with. There is not much that can be done about the plane. If I catch a cross country flight that leaves before sunrise and takes over 4 hours, I'll have to pray in the plane. Once I'm off the plane however, I'll find an unobtrusive corner to pray. It is possible that in your encounter, it was the only place available, but I find it hard to believe. However, if I'm in a public place and have to pray, I expect to not be disturbed providing I'm not impeding traffic or safety.


 
I'm not against people praying.  I'm against people doing something that will no doubt cause a stir or concern amongst the rest of the group.  If someone wants to pray, fine, pray away.   But, please do it in a way thats not going to make people think that the plane they're on is going to blow up.  People start standing and moving about when they're not supposed to, strapping things onto them, etc., yeah, thats causing a disturbance.


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## granfire (Mar 17, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> Latkes are usually eaten with either apple sauce or sour cream.


I have not tried sour cream yet 

Ok, foodie thoughts being reined in now.


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## SensibleManiac (Mar 17, 2011)

I wish people would behave themselves when on an airplane.

I don't know what it is, I have a theory that maybe it's the fact that they paid the airfare and feel entitled because of it, I'm not sure.

In general I have seen more selfishness and stupidity on the few planes I've taken in the last few years. I admit I don't fly frequently anymore and don't see myself flying anytime soon.

A few months after 911 I had to take a plane through the US, back then tensions were still high concerning the terrorist attacks.

I remember taking those flights (there and back) with the attitude that if anyone gets up and acts suspisciously or starts screaming something out, I'm going to attck them as fast and furiously as possible including anyone who might be with them.

I also remember people behaving themselves and no one so much as even looking at me with the exceptions of a couple of people around me who politely asked me something about the overhead compartments. 

Flash forward this to a few years ago when I took a plane on my honeymoon with my wife.
On the way back people were arrogant, impatient, took my overhead compartment and glared at me, and behaved like overall a$$rags. One weirdo kept jumping out of his seat and telling the stewardess he wasn't comfortable, the seats were uncomfortable... blah blah blah, whining until she let him sit in the back where a few seats next to each other were empty.

Had I not been with my wife, I'm almost positive I would have knocked one of these idiots out.

My point being that people need to remember that because they're on a plane they have extra reason to behave themselves.
As for the Teffillin, I rememeber MANY years ago, I saw a Rabbi blessing or praying for people with these on. It looked weird for someone who had never seen it, but under the circumstances I had witnessed it, it appeared harmless.
On a plane, where tensions are high, I don't think it's asking much to tell the stewardess, what they are intending to do, and if she says no, well too bad. I think we have to think of others as well and our freedoms have to end where others begin.

Personally, it is my OPINION that religious artifacts and such should be limited to religious institutions or private use.
But of course that's just my opinion.

If you want to pray on a plane, go ahead, just keep it to yourself and don't freak everyone else out.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 17, 2011)

MJS said:


> I'm not against people praying. I'm against people doing something that will no doubt cause a stir or concern amongst the rest of the group. If someone wants to pray, fine, pray away.  But, please do it in a way thats not going to make people think that the plane they're on is going to blow up. People start standing and moving about when they're not supposed to, strapping things onto them, etc., yeah, thats causing a disturbance.


 

The standing we can do. The strapping things on is not optional. Have we become sucha paranoid peoplke that the sight of something we have not encountered before sends us into a panic? If so, then 'they' have already won.


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## granfire (Mar 17, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> The standing we can do. The strapping things on is not optional. Have we become sucha paranoid peoplke that the sight of something we have not encountered before sends us into a panic? If so, then 'they' have already won.



Well, it's not like the strapping on has not already been done. Luckily the sneakers and boxers didn't go off. 

But I think there was a great deal of insensitivity going on. I am sure if these gentlemen had addressed their fellow passengers and let them in on their intentions to fulfill their daily worship requirements, little would have been said. Maybe a cautious 'can you do it seated' followed by some inquireries about those curious boxes they strapped to their heads. 

Seems to me it was a case of 'finger in your eye' thing. I see enough of it around here: if you object to my actions, you are a hater. And no, it is probably not linked to religious believes though it seems prevelent in some factions of the devout, but not denomination specific)

Kind of strange, with all them new devices, phones, and computers and such that let us talk to people all over the world all the time...we really lost the means of communicating with each other.


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## MJS (Mar 17, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> The standing we can do.


 
Sure, when they say you can stand.  Otherwise, stay in your seat.  In this case, according to the article, they disregarded repeated requestes to stay seated.



> The strapping things on is not optional. Have we become sucha paranoid peoplke that the sight of something we have not encountered before sends us into a panic? If so, then 'they' have already won.


 
I wouldn't call it being paranoid, I'd say its better to be alert and cautious.  I take it you would be calm?  Theres a difference between flying into a panic and being alert to some guys disregarding instructions, and acting weird.  

Again, as I said, I'm not against someone praying, but if its going to cause a disruption and possibly be viewed as an attempt at blowing up the plane, theres a time and place for everything, and these guys didn't exercise common sense.  Seems like thats lacking alot these days.


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## David43515 (Mar 17, 2011)

I think you misunderstood what CanukMA meant when he said "The standing we can do". If I understood him correctly, (AND CORRECT ME IF I`M WRONG.) he meant "The standing we can work with you on, it`s not a set-in-stone requirement the way that vocal prayer is."

This whole thing is a tough situation. A little understanding on *both *sides would have helped alot. I think that if the men in question knew they would have to make their prayers in flight they might have mentioned it to the flight crew before hand. But I can see where such a regular part of your daily routine becomes so commonplace that you don`t think about mentioning it. It`s like telling the guy in the seat next to you that you`ll be getting up later too brush your teeth. Who would think to do that?

@CanukMA: Now you`ve got me curious about Orthadox Judahism. I`m going to have to read up on it and find out more. I hate when my curiousity gets the better of me, but it happens all the time.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 18, 2011)

David, you are corect. They were wrong to insist on standing while the seat belt sign was on. While standing is preffered, we can pray sitting down, However, laying teffilin is not optional during morning prayers.


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## MJS (Mar 18, 2011)

My apologies on the misunderstanding.  :asian:


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## punisher73 (Mar 18, 2011)

David43515 said:


> This whole thing is a tough situation. A little understanding on *both *sides would have helped alot. I think that if the men in question knew they would have to make their prayers in flight they might have mentioned it to the flight crew before hand. But I can see where such a regular part of your daily routine becomes so commonplace that you don`t think about mentioning it. It`s like telling the guy in the seat next to you that you`ll be getting up later too brush your teeth. Who would think to do that?


 
I agree about the communication aspect.  But, as to the toothbrush analogy.  Everyone is cognizant of the fact of behaviors not associated with mainstream culture.  Everyone brushes their teeth (well most people do) in this country, not everyone places a religious icon on their forehead and wraps their wrists to pray out loud.

Especially post 9-11, it would seem that they would want to let others know what they were doing so as not cause alarm.  This really has nothing to do with religion and just has to do with someone acting like rules don't apply to them and using religion as an excuse.


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## granfire (Mar 18, 2011)

Kind of funny how things keep popping up.
After reading this thread I had an unusual encounter.

I play World of Warcraft and in the middle of a dungeon group one player excuses himself 'I'll be AFK for a few minutes I have to go pray' 

I mean, in 4 years or so I had never had that happen. (Sadly he left group before I could ask him.) 
I tried to remember the time incorrelation the prayer, but then again, he did not necessarily belong to the Jewish faith (and I know I expressed that not quiet right)


And of course, it has nothing to do with this thread, other than the reaches of education from it.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 18, 2011)

AFAIK, only Jews and Muslims have fixed prayer times. And Jews have a little more flexibility on the times.


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## granfire (Mar 18, 2011)

It just made me smile. ^_^

One of the good things about internet interaction:
While we are deprived of gestic and mimic or the sound of voice, we are also restricted to the content of the message. And so we do end up listening to a person we might otherwise overlook, be it because of age, color, gender or whatever. 
(and you never know if that hot Bloodelf you are following is not really controlled by some crusty old dude in his mom's basement...)


(PS, I would have been rolling on the floor if you had just now said that it was you I was playing with! I was just considering that he might have had his schedule messed up and had been cutting it close...)


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## jks9199 (Mar 18, 2011)

Several Christian churches use various forms of the Liturgy of the Hours.  HERE is a link to what seems to be an online breviary.  I don't vouch for its complete accuracy... but it seems pretty well done to me.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 18, 2011)

But are they obligated to pray a number of times a day, at fixed times?


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## Twin Fist (Mar 18, 2011)

why is someone's religious obligation more important than the peace of mind of a plane full of people?


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## jks9199 (Mar 18, 2011)

Priests and religious are obligated to pray several times a day in the Catholic Church; many lay people also pray the Liturgy of the Hours.  From the Wikipedia page I linked above:


> *Traditional Roman Breviary*
> 
> By the end of the fifth century, the Liturgy of the Hours was composed of seven offices, of which Compline seems to be the last to appear, since the fourth-century Apostolic Constitutions  VIII, iv, 34 do not mention it in the exhortation: "Offer up your  prayers in the morning, at the third hour, the sixth, the ninth, the  evening, and at cock-crowing".[3]
> An eight hour, Prime, was added by Benedict of Nursia in the sixth century. These eight hours are known by the following names:
> ...


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## granfire (Mar 18, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> why is someone's religious obligation more important than the peace of mind of a plane full of people?



Are you this abrasive in person?


----------



## Twin Fist (Mar 18, 2011)

if you consider THAT abrasive, you need a thicker skin my friend. And yes I am. Why do you think I got into martial arts?


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Mar 18, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> if you consider THAT abrasive, you need a thicker skin my friend. And yes I am. Why do you think I got into martial arts?


 
Says the one who constantly accuses others of making personal attacks and violating the TOS.

:roflmao:


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## granfire (Mar 18, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> if you consider THAT abrasive, you need a thicker skin my friend. And yes I am. Why do you think I got into martial arts?



Actually I think it was one of your milder responses. Just a thought that struck me.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 18, 2011)

i didnt think it was abrasive at all, i guess i need to re-calibrate


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## Sukerkin (Mar 19, 2011)

I happen to think that it was a fair question myself.  

I've been staying out of this one because it triggers my anti-religion gene too strongly but I have been thinking the same thing as I have been following the thread.

I understand the strength of feeling belief in organised mythology engenders but I do not understand how someone with such beliefs feels it makes them exceptions to the same rules that everyone else has to follow.  

None of what I have read so far makes that clear for me (tho' of course it may be that I have not fully read what posters have meant, in which case I'll be happy to sit corrected).


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## granfire (Mar 19, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> I happen to think that it was a fair question myself.
> 
> I've been staying out of this one because it triggers my anti-religion gene too strongly but I have been thinking the same thing as I have been following the thread.
> 
> ...



If you referring to my question to Twin Fist, it was just on the tip of my tongue (or fingers) since it was actually by far not his strongest response.

As to the original incident....
you are right I suppose.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 19, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Priests and religious are obligated to pray several times a day in the Catholic Church; many lay people also pray the Liturgy of the Hours. From the Wikipedia page I linked above:


 

Thanks JKS.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 19, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> I happen to think that it was a fair question myself.
> 
> I've been staying out of this one because it triggers my anti-religion gene too strongly but I have been thinking the same thing as I have been following the thread.
> 
> ...


 

I've already stated that they were wrong to insist on praying standing up. For that, their fault. But wearing a tallit and teffilin for morning prayer is not optional. Why should I give up my beliefs because of your ignorance?

It would take a few minutes in a flight attendant's training schedule to instruct them in the morning prayer accoutrement of an Orthodox Jew. Jut add a half day for the 5 minute toour of the religions of the world in the training.


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## granfire (Mar 19, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> I've already stated that they were wrong to insist on praying standing up. For that, their fault. But wearing a tallit and teffilin for morning prayer is not optional. Why should I give up my beliefs because of your ignorance?
> 
> It would take a few minutes in a flight attendant's training schedule to instruct them in the morning prayer accoutrement of an Orthodox Jew. Jut add a half day for the 5 minute toour of the religions of the world in the training.



Well, considering the chances that coming up (I am sure it will be included for the future, at least on that airline...).

However...for the future I'd be personally even more suspicious...I mean, we know the screening is crap, so what keeps a would be terrorist from using such harmless device...

Ah, yes, buying into the paranoia now.... slap me please!

It's a matter of miscommunication. I am not sure how the rules are in packing those babies into a case that can be stored in the foot room under the seat in front of you, but that would scrap the need to get up in mid flight (I mean, that's were you pack the stuff you are likely to need often during the flight...)


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## Sukerkin (Mar 19, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> Why should I give up my beliefs because of your ignorance?



There's the disjunct that prevents a discussion on a pragmatic level.

You don't give up your beliefs because of my ignorance; that wasn't the question.  I was just supporting what was asked i.e. why it was assumed that a group of peoples 'scary' behaviour in an already 'scary' space being prompted by a mythological belief system allows them more leeway than anyone else.  It's a fair question.

Surely the sensible route is to follow the legal channels available to obtain exemption and until then abide by the pertinent regulations?

For me, I would not be 'freaked out' by such behaviour as I have the priviledge of actually having had a religious studies education of all the major faiths whilst at school (with a teacher who was an agnostic, thankfully, so he had no particular sect to promote).  On top of which I was brought up from birth in a staunchly religious environment, achieving enlightenment of my own as I hit my 'teens and leaving such matters behind but still retaining the memories of what I was taught.

Others are not so fortunate in the plurality of their experience and react very badly when confronted with the 'weird' when they can't get away from it.


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## Archangel M (Mar 19, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> I've already stated that they were wrong to insist on praying standing up. For that, their fault. But wearing a tallit and teffilin for morning prayer is not optional. Why should I give up my beliefs because of your ignorance?
> 
> It would take a few minutes in a flight attendant's training schedule to instruct them in the morning prayer accoutrement of an Orthodox Jew. Jut add a half day for the 5 minute toour of the religions of the world in the training.



It would also take a few minutes of the worshipers time to explain "dont freak out, but I have to pray right now. This object has a sacred script in it see?" Understanding and consideration doesn't fall entirely on one sides shoulders.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 20, 2011)

granfire said:


> I am not sure how the rules are in packing those babies into a case that can be stored in the foot room under the seat in front of you, but that would scrap the need to get up in mid flight (I mean, that's were you pack the stuff you are likely to need often during the flight...)


 
The teffilin contains verses of Torah. They can't not be stored underfoot.


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## granfire (Mar 20, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> The teffilin contains verses of Torah. They can't not be stored underfoot.


Figured there would be a problem....


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## SensibleManiac (Mar 21, 2011)

> "They can't not be stored underfoot."



You mean cannot be stored underfoot, right?

Either way, a little explanation on their part would have prevented much trouble.


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## shesulsa (Mar 21, 2011)

I have never, ever seen these contraptions. Ever.  I'm 45 and I've flown before.

I've also never seen a faithful Jew block traffic or even go off to the side to say prayers in public.

I'm pretty open-minded and am the kind of person to say, 'can the boxes be x-rayed' and 'it would be more than appropriate to train flight attendants about cultural or religious paraphernalia,' etcetera.

I'm also one to say, 'if you don't want the FBI up your *** about these things you're strapping to your body during a flight, you'd better ****ing answer all questions about them and have as much discussion with the flight attendants as they need to be reasonably comfortable or at least make an informed decision as to whether the will allow the wiggle room or not.

I have to agree with Bill on this one.  

And I'd prefer to err on the side of safety (and yes, perhaps ignorance) than just sit on my hands like a mook.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 21, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> I have never, ever seen these contraptions. Ever. I'm 45 and I've flown before.


 
You need to be on a long haul flight (4+ hours) that takes off before sunrise.



> I've also never seen a faithful Jew block traffic or even go off to the side to say prayers in public.


 
Because most of us pary before or after the fliht, or if we need to do it onboard, stay seated.



> I'm pretty open-minded and am the kind of person to say, 'can the boxes be x-rayed' and 'it would be more than appropriate to train flight attendants about cultural or religious paraphernalia,' etcetera.


 
Yes, they can be x-rayed, just not opened for inspection. So much easier to educate flight crews.


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## shesulsa (Mar 21, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> You need to be on a long haul flight (4+ hours) that takes off before sunrise.


I admit I've only been on such a flight about six or seven times over my lifetime; between here and New York, Houston (always a connected flight, usually into O'Hare or St. Louis), Hawai'i or Nashville (also a connected flight).


> Because most of us pary before or after the fliht, or if we need to do it onboard, stay seated.


I assumed this - and I've seen the shawls but never the tefflin and I truly am sensitive to religious ritual ... it's just that these are sensitive times and, truthfully, when others are lighting their tennis shoe laces on fire, it's easy (I think) to be suspicious of small boxes strapped in such a fashion.  Not many, I think, have seen this.
[/quote]


> Yes, they can be x-rayed, just not opened for inspection. So much easier to educate flight crews.


I *still* think the flight crews should be educated to things like this - I'm rather shocked they are not, but then unexpected ignorance usually does.  I'm a little embarrassed that I didn't know anything about tefflin.

I appreciate your understanding here.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 21, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> I admit I've only been on such a flight about six or seven times over my lifetime; between here and New York, Houston (always a connected flight, usually into O'Hare or St. Louis), Hawai'i or Nashville (also a connected flight).
> 
> I assumed this - and I've seen the shawls but never the tefflin and I truly am sensitive to religious ritual ... it's just that these are sensitive times and, truthfully, when others are lighting their tennis shoe laces on fire, it's easy (I think) to be suspicious of small boxes strapped in such a fashion. Not many, I think, have seen this.


 
I *still* think the flight crews should be educated to things like this - I'm rather shocked they are not, but then unexpected ignorance usually does. I'm a little embarrassed that I didn't know anything about tefflin.

I appreciate your understanding here.[/quote]

The conditions have to be just right. You need to be on a flight with Orthodox Jews. It needs to take off before sunrise and be long enough to land after the latest permitted time for morning prayer. There are not many such flights.

I agree that flight crews should be instructed. If I'm about to start morning prayers, do I inform a) people next to me?, b) across the aisle? c) in front?, d) behind?, e) flight crew?

Accounting for the rudeness of some people, it would be a lot simpler for everyone if the flight crews would have an understanding of what I'm doing should queries arise.


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## MJS (Mar 21, 2011)

If the flight crew had more training, does anyone think that this would help to ease the tension, fear, concern, etc, amongst the other passengers on the plane?  I mean, people (why I dont know) put faith in TSA to screen luggage and passengers, yet we've seen how reliable they are with that.  That being said, I wonder how many passengers would actually take the word of the flight crew that everything will be ok, and the people chanting things in another language, disregarding orders to stay seated, acting odd and strapping things to their bodies, are just praying.  Everything will be ok.


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## shesulsa (Mar 21, 2011)

MJS said:


> If the flight crew had more training, does anyone think that this would help to ease the tension, fear, concern, etc, amongst the other passengers on the plane?  I mean, people (why I dont know) put faith in TSA to screen luggage and passengers, yet we've seen how reliable they are with that.  That being said, I wonder how many passengers would actually take the word of the flight crew that everything will be ok, and the people chanting things in another language, disregarding orders to stay seated, acting odd and strapping things to their bodies, are just praying.  Everything will be ok.



I dunno. I would hope that it would help breed understanding and it would probably indicate the need for continued vigilance on the part of the crew or air marshall ... but then I'm an untrusting soul meself.

What do you think??


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## MJS (Mar 22, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> I dunno. I would hope that it would help breed understanding and it would probably indicate the need for continued vigilance on the part of the crew or air marshall ... but then I'm an untrusting soul meself.
> 
> What do you think??


 


Well, IMO, training is something thats very important but many times, neglected.  Would it benefit the airline staff?  Who knows.  IIRC, I asked a silimar question earlier.  Oh yeah, right here. May've missed it, but I dont recall ever getting an answer to that question.  Hmm...oh well.....anyways....

As I said, I'm all for making everyone involved in the flight, as far as staff goes, more aware, but it seems to me that some think that THAT is the end all, be all answer.  What about the people on the flight?  Just because the crew, TSA, etc, may've gone thru extra training, doesnt mean the passengers have.  Some people who fly on a regular basis, probably still to this day, all these years later, cringe at the thought of getting hijacked.  I dont fly nearly as much as some do, but yeah, these things cross my mind when I do fly.  Paranoid?  Not at all. But yes, if I saw a group of people doing what these guys did, I'd expect some answers.  Again, I'm not against praying, but, if its going to cause a stir, well, people need to exercise something that many times is lacking, and thats common sense!!!!!!

So, once again, how is training crew going to ease the passengers potential fears or concerns?  Given the wonderful track record of the folks (TSA) who're supposed to be entrusted with making sure nothing suspect gets on the plane, are people really going to take the word of the flight crew, who probably went thru 1 8hr class, if that, on religion, that the folks that're acting weird, are really ok?


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## shesulsa (Mar 22, 2011)

MJS said:


> Well, IMO, training is something thats very important but many times, neglected.  Would it benefit the airline staff?  Who knows.  IIRC, I asked a silimar question earlier.  Oh yeah, right here. May've missed it, but I dont recall ever getting an answer to that question.  Hmm...oh well.....anyways....



I guess my scan/read interpreted it as more of a rhetorical question rather than a serious one.  I suppose what I envision myself doing in that situation would be to have a presence in the cabin so if other passengers asked or expressed concern about the situation I could answer them and reassure them for safety.  I do, however, remain abjectly defensive of the point that these men should have 1. answered the queries to the satisfaction of the crew and 2. followed the directions given to them.  I'm sensitive to their ritual for prayer, but it doesn't seem logical to schedule a flight for yourself if you're going to have to disobey all safety laws and regulations to the detriment of all passengers.  If it's something that can't be avoided, special arrangements should be made with the airline and crew in advance.



> As I said, I'm all for making everyone involved in the flight, as far as staff goes, more aware, but it seems to me that some think that THAT is the end all, be all answer.  What about the people on the flight?  Just because the crew, TSA, etc, may've gone thru extra training, doesnt mean the passengers have.  Some people who fly on a regular basis, probably still to this day, all these years later, cringe at the thought of getting hijacked.  I dont fly nearly as much as some do, but yeah, these things cross my mind when I do fly.  Paranoid?  Not at all. But yes, if I saw a group of people doing what these guys did, I'd expect some answers.  Again, I'm not against praying, but, if its going to cause a stir, well, people need to exercise something that many times is lacking, and thats common sense!!!!!!


 
I don't disagree.



> So, once again, how is training crew going to ease the passengers potential fears or concerns?  Given the wonderful track record of the folks (TSA) who're supposed to be entrusted with making sure nothing suspect gets on the plane, are people really going to take the word of the flight crew, who probably went thru 1 8hr class, if that, on religion, that the folks that're acting weird, are really ok?



The average Joe Citizen will, I think, allow themselves to be placated.

The passenger like you and me will remain uncomfortable and on top guard the entire time and will likely complain afterwards.  As I said, when people are lighting shoes on fire and etcetera on planes, small boxes with straps on them JUST LOOK VERY SUSPICIOUS - and it would be EASY, I'm sure, to emulate this item and stock it with very real explosives or remote devices.


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## Archangel M (Mar 22, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> I'm sensitive to their ritual for prayer, but it doesn't seem logical to schedule a flight for yourself if you're going to have to disobey all safety laws and regulations to the detriment of all passengers. If it's something that can't be avoided, special arrangements should be made with the airline and crew in advance.


 
Thats where I'm at.  A little common sense and some foresight on the worshipers part should be part of the equation here as well. Somehow these situations always seem to get played out as "look at the insensitive bigots" by the media.


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## jks9199 (Mar 22, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> The conditions have to be just right. You need to be on a flight with  Orthodox Jews. It needs to take off before sunrise and be long enough to  land after the latest permitted time for morning prayer. There are not  many such flights.
> 
> I agree that flight crews should be instructed. If I'm about to start  morning prayers, do I inform a) people next to me?, b) across the aisle?  c) in front?, d) behind?, e) flight crew?
> 
> Accounting for the rudeness of some people, it would be a lot simpler  for everyone if the flight crews would have an understanding of what I'm  doing should queries arise.


 
The conditions have to be just right. You need to be on a flight with Orthodox Jews. It needs to take off before sunrise and be long enough to land after the latest permitted time for morning prayer. There are not many such flights.

I agree that flight crews should be instructed. If I'm about to start morning prayers, do I inform a) people next to me?, b) across the aisle? c) in front?, d) behind?, e) flight crew?

Accounting for the rudeness of some people, it would be a lot simpler for everyone if the flight crews would have an understanding of what I'm doing should queries arise.[/quote]
Can you be interrupted in your prayers?  Or, once begun, must they be completed without interruption barring life-threatening emergency?

I ask because this may explain some aspects of the original incident, and would guide who I'd suggest advising.  If you can't be interrupted, I'd suggest notifying your nearest seatmates (same row or right behind), and the flight crew.  Nothing major, just a simple statement along the lines of "I'm an Orthodox Jew, and about to begin my morning prayers.  These are tefelin,and part of the ritual, and I'll be praying in Hebrew."  If you can be interrupted -- just the people closest to you, just like you would if you were going to open a big book or something else that might be a mild disruption.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 22, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Can you be interrupted in your prayers? Or, once begun, must they be completed without interruption barring life-threatening emergency?
> 
> I ask because this may explain some aspects of the original incident, and would guide who I'd suggest advising. If you can't be interrupted, I'd suggest notifying your nearest seatmates (same row or right behind), and the flight crew. Nothing major, just a simple statement along the lines of "I'm an Orthodox Jew, and about to begin my morning prayers. These are tefelin,and part of the ritual, and I'll be praying in Hebrew." If you can be interrupted -- just the people closest to you, just like you would if you were going to open a big book or something else that might be a mild disruption.


 
Can't be interrupted. 

And I must say, the only times I've had to pray morning prayers aboard a plane were on flights to Israel, and there a LOT of men stand up to pray, and the overwhelming majority of the remaining passengers know what's going on. 

Morning prayers, when said alone, only takes about 10, maybe 15 minutes at most.


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## MJS (Mar 22, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> I guess my scan/read interpreted it as more of a rhetorical question rather than a serious one. I suppose what I envision myself doing in that situation would be to have a presence in the cabin so if other passengers asked or expressed concern about the situation I could answer them and reassure them for safety. I do, however, remain abjectly defensive of the point that these men should have 1. answered the queries to the satisfaction of the crew and 2. followed the directions given to them. I'm sensitive to their ritual for prayer, but it doesn't seem logical to schedule a flight for yourself if you're going to have to disobey all safety laws and regulations to the detriment of all passengers. If it's something that can't be avoided, special arrangements should be made with the airline and crew in advance.


 
Agreed.  Like I said, common sense. 





> I don't disagree.


 






> The average Joe Citizen will, I think, allow themselves to be placated.
> 
> The passenger like you and me will remain uncomfortable and on top guard the entire time and will likely complain afterwards. As I said, when people are lighting shoes on fire and etcetera on planes, small boxes with straps on them JUST LOOK VERY SUSPICIOUS - and it would be EASY, I'm sure, to emulate this item and stock it with very real explosives or remote devices.


 
I probably would not only complain afterwards but at the moment as well.  Personally, I'd rather not wait until we're in the air before I raised my concerns.


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## granfire (Mar 22, 2011)

MJS said:


> I probably would not only complain afterwards but at the moment as well.  Personally, I'd rather not wait until we're in the air before I raised my concerns.



If you know before hand...


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## shesulsa (Mar 23, 2011)

granfire said:


> If you know before hand...



Or, again, if the crew are trained and can answer questions and reassure people....

There is, however, the matter of safety.  Asking passengers to sit during the takeoff process is a matter of cabin safety - and not just the safety of the passengers who aren't buckled into their seats.  If something happens during takeoff or not long after and the plane jolts somehow and bodies fly, they could fly into other people and seriously injure and/or kill other people.

It's not really a matter of religious intolerance, I think.  It could be, and it certainly does have an element of ignorance ... but it is about safety.


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