# The lesson of MMA: A massive shift in belief about martial arts



## Freestyler777 (Aug 21, 2007)

For a long time, I tried to play judo, thinking 'since its the origin of BJJ, than it must be somehow better or at least equal to its descendent'.  But if you assess things according to the gold-standard of MMA (which you may approve or deny of in the first place) the two must successful styles are freestyle wrestling and BJJ.  Karatekas and Judokas did not fare well in the early MMA events, and later, most traditional styles (excluding judo, which is quite a combative sport) practically boycotted these events.

But now I have come to grips that I am a wrestler, not a judoka, and I should stop pretending.  I only did judo two years, and that does not qualify me to be an authority on the subject.  

However, it is my conclusion, based on objective analysis, that wrestling and BJJ seem to have dominated, and continue to dominate, the MMA events.  Even the kickboxers who do well in MMA have either wrestling or bjj backgrounds.  

So there are two approaches to groundfighting, the aggressive G n P guy or the passive guard expert.  Basically, top man and bottom man.

While I am a former wrestler, I am only a white belt in BJJ, but I see the efficiency and subtlety of my training buddies' technique.  I tap often. 

I am really happy to have wrestled, and now have the opportunity to learn BJJ.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Aug 22, 2007)

Both are great arts, untill someone pulls a knife and knows how to use it.


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## Freestyler777 (Aug 22, 2007)

But what can you do against a knife, or multiple attackers?  I ask you seriously, I know you are a traditional Jiu-jitsu guy.  Is it realistic to defend against weapons?


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## tntma12 (Aug 22, 2007)

It is quite possible to defend against weapons or multiple attackers.  The question isn't whether its possible, but whether its used in your style of training.  For instance, aikido is not used in mma or most competition, but is quite effective in defense against weapons and multiple attackers.  And aikido is not the only style that teaches this.  Most styles, if not all, have ways of defending weapons or against multiple attackers.  Its all a question of how and why you train.


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## Freestyler777 (Aug 22, 2007)

I will think that over (aikido vs weapons or multiple opponents).  But you do agree that in single, unarmed combat, wrestlers (Ground n Pound) and BJJers (submission experts) seem to dominate those with little to no mat experience?


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## tntma12 (Aug 22, 2007)

I agree if the fight goes to the ground, absolutly, the advantage would go to the wrestler or BJJ practitoner, no question.

  It doesnt matter what style you study, all have something to offer and can be useful in a combat situation.  Personally, I love BJJ and I study jiu jitsu, and both have amazing abilities, and techniques.  Wrestling and BJJ have very much to offer in a "combat" situation.  But it depends on the artist, not the art.


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## Freestyler777 (Aug 22, 2007)

BTW, I've been watching the IFL on Youtube, and I'm going to rent some more UFC DVDs today.  MMA has come a long way.  They know everything now!  Boxing(striking) wrestling (takedowns) and Jiu-jitsu (submission).  I think it is more fun to watch the modern MMA, which is polished and professional, than the older fights from the '90s, which where brutal.


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2007)

Try if you can to get more than UFC videos, a lot of the smaller promotions have better fights on them, far more technical and interesting. Have a look at the Bodog fights too men and womens.


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## Freestyler777 (Aug 22, 2007)

Which tapes/events/dvds do you reccommend? Blockbuster only has UFC, but I've seen some Pride and the ancient EFC.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Aug 22, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> But what can you do against a knife, or multiple attackers? I ask you seriously, I know you are a traditional Jiu-jitsu guy. Is it realistic to defend against weapons?


 

 I've done it before studying what I do now, what I trained in then was no where near as good as what I do now.

  So yes it is, but you must train for it a good deal, not just here and there. No one with a brain would say it's easy or that you can expect to come away unscathed. You would be surprissed the damage you can take when you are scarred, and odds are you will take some damage.

 Some of it is taken a hit or slice to prevent a bash or a stab and above all stay active and moving, stalling is death.

 Our style of Jujutsu deals with this, but I am also doing Pekti Tarsia and Silat now as well, to get even better at it. I also carry knives 95% of the time I am out of the house and sumtimes something a little meaner.
 I worry more about armed attackers and mulltiple attackers because that's what you get when being mugged or assulted, most 1 on 1 fights are avoidable (not all, or sometimes you might want a peice of them as well) I worry more aboout what gets forced on you and what can kill you.

 If they are to beleived, several Gracies have fought multiple attackers and armed attackers, and their art (Apparantly, we dont kow what goes on behined closed doors) is not big on training for multiples or trained or talented knifers.


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## Freestyler777 (Aug 23, 2007)

Aren't you worried about the law, if in the case that you are forced to defend yourself?  And why not carry a gun instead, since that is an even greater deterrent to a mugger?


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## Darth F.Takeda (Aug 23, 2007)

I worry about the law last, after worrying about my life.

 A knife is usually lighter and easier to carry than my gun's, if I am wearing shorts and a T, I just slip it in my pocket, it has a clip so I am not breaking the law by carrying it in this state and many others, ( We are a free people in Virginia, it's a big right to self defense state) My pistol requires I wear enough cloths to conceal it to a degree, this can be a pain in the Butt. I dont like open carry because weak nillys can get all bent out of shape about it, and  even some cops in Va are ignorent about the open carry laws here.

 A knife can be a better weapon close in than a gun, they are harder to take away from me than a gun, get my wrist and push it out of line and a gun is a noisemaker, grab my wrist when I have a knife and it will be used to lock your wrist and filet your forearm. 
 A knife offers more options, force wise. Some people will stop after you cut them, some will presist so you can sever a tendeon and their hand does not work right, I can slice your hamstring and drop you, so I dont have to kill you. I can cut your forehead, so theat blood pours into your eyes, I can butt strike you in the temple or brachial, sever the scrotum and do many seemingly vicious and unnerving things that do not immeidiatly kill. Or I can kill with it. I look at a knife as the fangs and claws God forgot to give me.
 I pull a gun and someone dies, period.

 Oh and guns jam, malfunction and run out of ammo, A knife never runs out of knife and pretty much functions 99.9% of the time. (My pistols are all real realiable though, but I have them worked on by someone who works on weapons for Spec Ops teams, lucky me.)


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## Darth F.Takeda (Aug 23, 2007)

I also forgot to mention that it is usually easier to deploy a knife than a gun, a gun must be pulled and pointed, the way I draw a knife is similar to the Japanese or the Romans, it is dangerous as soon as it clears my pocket. My first draw is also my first attack, it's a tad quicker than my gun draw (yes I traine for close in shooting) and I like the idea that that draw can cut or stab them, but they can disengaeg and live, the gun comes out and it's 2 in the pelvis, 2 in the chest and 2 in the head, if the 2 in the pelvis does not drop them quick enough. ( When I have done this with drop targets, the target gets stitched up the center, if it was a human, they would die for sure.)


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## Freestyler777 (Aug 23, 2007)

That is cool how you said "the fangs and claws that God forgot to give me".  It makes us realize that humans are relatively fragile (as far as predators go), and we are here to work together with tools, not to harm each other.  But I see what you are saying about a knife vs a gun's respective usefulness.  I guess if you live in a bad neighborhood or like to go to bars, then you have to protect yourself.  I live in suburbia on long island, so these issues are not of concern to me.  I am just interested in wrestling and BJJ as self-perfection.


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## Andrew Green (Aug 23, 2007)

Darth F.Takeda said:


> Both are great arts, untill someone pulls a knife and knows how to use it.



Well, we have Godwin's law, so here is Andrew's Law:

Somewhat different, but once someone makes a post that mentions MMA / Grappling or Brazilian Jui-jitsu by the end of the thread someone will mention weapons, getting kicked by friends or broken glass.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Aug 23, 2007)

We are getting OT here.

 I just want to say, I love MMA and BJJ, our Jujutsu has alot of grappling as well and I admire the mastery of the range that BJJ has, I crosstrain with people in it every chance I get.

 MMA is the best modern combat sport, I wish it was going on like it is today when I was a teen and wanted to compete, Karate point fighting and TKD "Full Contact" was always a joke to me, I had to many real fights to take that stuff seriously.

 The training method and sparring gear for MMA is awsome and a few of us utilize it durring invitration only training sessions.
 Yopu would be surprissed how much traditional Jujutsu, even stuff I considered esoteric, works durring these sessions against people who have done amateur MMA.
 I think you might see some of this creep into MMA in the future, my boy starts Judo next year=)
 Maybe he'll be in UFC 210?


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## Freestyler777 (Aug 23, 2007)

Your theory seems very logical, Andrew Green.  I've noticed also that every MMA/BJJ topic turns into a weapons/multiple attackers/cement floors or broken glass scenario debate.

But I am not going to get into a streetfight just to find out what it's like, so I will try to use observation and analysis to form my beliefs about Self Defense. 

And if the early MMA events UFC, EFC, WCC, etc...  are any indication, wrestlers/judoka (ground n pound) and BJJers (submission experts) defeated traditional martial artists almost with ease.

That is why I titled the topic "a massive shift in belief about martial arts"  i remember when i was a kid thinking karate, and later kickboxing, would make you a human weapon, when perhaps grappling is more realistic.  But I can only speak from observation, I never ground n pounded anyone, because i've never been in serious fights.


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