# Sanchin kata for slicing and dicing



## Victor Smith (Oct 6, 2007)

I've always done my own analysis. Sanchin kata as a tool for basic training never made much sense to me and after many years I took a different root.

Sanchin a way to slice into an opponent 100% of the time. I put this togheter about 7 or 8 years ago but as an beginning analysis of how Sanchin works in my mind I'm freely offering it. 

For a lot of reasons, more especially to find a more efficient energy release in technique I no longer do the huff and puff version of Sanchin, but only execute it full speed with natural breathing.

Beginning Sanchin Application Analysis

First do we all have a common reference, such as Morio Higaonna's Traditional Karatedo 2 with Sanchin in it. It would make for easier reference if we can do this.

Regarding Ueichi Sanchin, it is performed open handed, and does not use dynamic tension. I assume it is closer to the original Hiagonna used to derive his closed fist Sanchin from.

I think a fun place to start would be Myiagi Sanchin (the afforementeiond Higaonna text) PAGE 39 picture 8 as the text says " from musubi dachi, bending the knees slightly, use suri ashi to slowly slide the right foot forward in an inward arc into right sanchin dachi; at the same time bring both arms up in front of the chest, left arm over right"

This is just before performing the morote chudan yoko uke (the double side blocks).

To offer my beginning, lets start on the beginning movement. 

[By personal preference, I'm not into Rei breakdown.]

------------------------------ Sanchin Kata

"Slide the Right Foot Forward in an inward arch into right Sanchin Dachi, at the same time bring both arms up in front of the chest" - precursor to the following morote chudan yoku uke.

I would add left arm out, right crossed on top.

---------- -------

The first thing this reminds me of is the use of the movement as a stop hit. Sherman Harrill has a variation of this he's used on me.

As I see it, uke's coming out to punch me with his right hand (or to grab me with his right hand).

I step forward with my right and used the crossed hands to strike straight into his solar plexus as he's moving with my left. The crossing right can also strike into the chest at the same time (a double hit).

The throat can also be a target of opportunity. Especially used in some Aikido as an Atemi strike into the throat. I cite Mitsugi Saotome's "The Principles of Aikido" page 56 - 57. Shomenuchi irimi with atemi to the throat, and with atemi to the solar plexus. Great example. BTW works great, too.

Second opportunity, (from Harrill Sherman sensei), the left hand strikes into the lower right abdomen, the same time the right strikes across the body into the side of the attackers right forearm. (A different double strike) This is an opening movement for the following technique from the kata (Sanchin or Seisan).

Interesting strike. The lower abdomen of the punching arm is often very unprepared for a counter strike, as the body is preparing to deliver its own strike.

This ties into a thought of Rothrock Ernest (Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai) that the reason the Chinese chamber their punches on the side of the body is to protect the lower abdomen area. So it's interesting to find a reason to strike there.

Which ties into another story from Trevor Leggett's "Zen and the Ways", where a kenjutsu school had 3 of their seniors massacred one night, with single knife thrusts into the same area. But that's not germane to this topic. Just a plug for a fantastic book, if you can ever find a copy.


Sanchin 2nd Movement

After we have stepped out with the right foot and have brought both arms up in front of the chest, we execute Morote Chudan Yoku Uke (Double Outer Middle Blocks).

Among the application opportunities are:

Percussive Defense

Grappling counters From the front 
1. Uke LFF Lft Grab 
You turn 20 degrees left. The Left outer middle block turns the attackers grabbing arm over while The right middle block is used as a strike to the attackers left arm triceps.

2. Uke RFF Rt Grab
You turn 20 degrees left. The Left outer middle block turns the attackers grabbing arm over while the right middle block is used to strike into the side of the attackers neck or chest.

3. Uke RFF Cross hand grab of your right hand
Defense as in 2.

4. Uke RFF Double hand grab of both hands.
Defense as in 1.

Percussive Offense

5. Attacking to the opponents back/spine from behind with the back knuckle strikes.

6. Attacking to the opponents back/spine from behind or the side with the elbow strikes in the double outer blocke

Takedown counters from the front

7. Uke LFF Left Punch
You turn in 20 degrees to the left as your left outer block deflects the strike, your right foot hooks behind their left foot and at the same time your right arm strikes up under their punching left arm into their chest (upper pectorial area). The left deflection and the right upper body strike combine with the trapping of their foot to spin them down.

8. Uke RFF Right Punch
Your turn in 20 degrees to the left as your left outer block deflects the strike, your right foot hooks behind their right foot and at the same time your right arm strikes up under their punching right arm into their upper back just behind the armpit area. The left deflection and the right upper back strike combine with the trapping of their foot to spin them down.

Important to note, the double outer blocks create a plane of force between them to increase the power of both strikes. The simultaneous timing becomes very important to generate full power into these strikes. When the trapping of the opponents foot is used with the blocks, the opponents center of gravity is overtaken with your own to spin them down off balance.


Sanchin 3rd movement

Before I begin my analysis of this movement, today (02/15/00) on the CyberDojo Paris Janos made a great point about the circular nature of all movement. I quote from Paris with his permission.

"I agree with what Rusty and others are discussing about circular motion. 

"Elliptical might be a good description too, but we all get the idea. The good thing about circles is that they contain the possibility of power issuance along the whole curve, not at only one point. Circles also allow for more smooth transitions between techniques as they eliminate stop-and-go actions that are counter- productive in a martial sense. "

"There is no pause in power and technique as they merge into one continuous flow and circles are present in all techniques even when not visibly apparent. Knowing how to best exploit and utilize these curves and arcs is learned through correct kata practice and application. They are natural movements but require training and thought in order to maximize their effectiveness."

"Often times, kata techniques are studies in describing different circular directions at the same time while developing the ability to issue power in different or opposing directions. Compounded circular motion is difficult but paramount in our study of real fighting ability and attributes. "

"As we improve (hopefully) we learn how to decrease the size of our circles so as to retain the inherent concept and utilize it most realistically. "

This seems to tie into my suggested use of technique for the 'shearing forces' present, which are derived from the circular nature behind the techniques. 

-----
On the other hand, the flow of the circle now begins to strike me as a way of explaining the basic shifting I prefer to execute most techniques. If you've ever attempted to walk a circle you find the old adage about it being composed of an infinite number of straight lines each touching the circle at one point, It's making me rethink my entry against attacks as a very tight circling to the 20 degree crossing of their line of attack.

More food for thought.
--
Back to Sanchin.

You've completed the Step forward into Right Sanchin Dachi and executed the double outside blocks Next you chamber the Left Hand and follow this with a left reverse punch.

In the Goju (and Isshinryu) version I've see two methods of chambering. 
1) return the left hand directly to chamber 
2) Circle the left hand in alongside the right arm as it goes to chamber
The Ueichi version of this circles the left hand in alongside the right arm as it goes to chamber.

The first part of this motion can be 
1) simply chambering preparing for the punch
2) grabbing and pulling the attacker into the chamber
3) A slashing descending backfist striking into an uke's punching arm or kicking leg
4) A slashing strike into an opponents body

The second part of the motion is simply a punch with various targets
From the front
1) The solar plexus
2) The lower side of the abdomen From the side
3) The side of the ribs
4) The armpit From the back
5) The Spine
6) The Kidneys

Now to put some of these together.with Sanchin techniques 1 and/or 2.

Uke Left Foot Forward Left Punch
1. You step in with your right foot and use the cross hands strike into their upper left chest. (an interior line of defense)
2. You then execute your double outer strikes, the right deflecting their left punch out and the left striking into their chest (or the side of their head).
Uke then throws a right reverse punch
3. You slice your left backfist on the inside of their punching right hand as you chamber.
4. You then punch into the lower side of their abdomen with your left hand
5. a. If you strike there with a vertical punch turned to 1 o'clock, the strike will cause them to bend down
6. a. If you strike there with a vertical punch turned to 11 o'clock the force of the strike will travel back to their kidneys.

Uke Left Foot Forward Left Punch
1. You step in with your right foot and slide your left foot over so your center line will cross their attacking arm 20 degrees.
2. Your double outer strike has the right deflecting the left punch and the left hand back knuckles striking into their chest.
3. You then Slice a left backfist into the side of their ribs as you chamber.
4. Your right hand turns over and grabs their left wrist and pulls down as your left arm slices across their left ribs with the side of the arm. This will cause them to sag forward allowing a spin down with your right hand.

Uke Right Foot Forward Right Punch
1. You step forward with your right foot using a crescent step, to the outside of their punching arm. (an exterior line of defense). Then slide your left foot over so your centerline will cross their attacking arm 20 degrees.
2. Your double outer strike has the right deflecting the right punch and the left hand backfist striking into their chest (under the attackers arm).
3. You then slice a left backfist across the side of their ribs as you chamber.
4. You right hand turns over and grabs their left wrist and pulls down as your left arm slices across their right ribs with the side of your arm. This will cause them to sag forward allowing a spin down with your right hand.

Alternate ending
4. Your right hand stikes into their kidneys (or arm pit)


Uke Right Foot Forward Right Punch
1. You step forward with your right foot using a crescent step, to the outside of their punching arm (an exterior line of defense). You crossing hands strike into their armpit or the side of their right ribs.
2. You slide your right foot forward and execute a double outer strike, the right arm strikes into their back because you begin swinging your leg clockwise and end up in right sanchin dachi behind your attacker 
3. You now shift to a posterior line of attack.. Your left arm slices down across their spine as you chamber your hand.
4. You now punch a) their spine or b) their kidneys.

This covers some of the basic striking options I see with Sanchin through the first three movements.


The Sanchin - 4th Movement and 2nd Tnansition

Back to Sanchin.

Completing the reverse punch, you now do a left outer block with the
left arm.

Obviously this can be done as a Thumb knuckle strike from the fist
(block), or by using the forearm as a shearing plane of force.

This technique, while it can be used alone, to my mind seems strongest
as a follow up of 1,2,3. In that light I will continue with these
sequences adding the fourth technique.

Now to put some of these together.with Sanchin techniques 1, 2 and 3.

Uke Left Foot Forward Left Punch (Interior line of defense)
1. You step in with your right foot and use the cross hands strike into their upper left chest. (an interior line of defense) [This step is the first Transition.]
2. You then execute your double outer strikes, the right deflecting
their left punch out and the left striking into their chest (or the
side of their head).

Uke then throws a right reverse punch
3. You slice your left backfist on the inside of their punching right
hand as you chamber.
4. You then punch into the lower side of their abdomen with your left
hand
5. a. If you strike there with a vertical punch turned to 1 o'clock,
the strike will cause them to bend down
6. a. If you strike there with a vertical punch turned to 11 o'clock
the force of the strike will travel back to their kidneys.
7. Your left outer block is used as a strike into the left side of
their neck (or alternately into their left arm pit) (or into the left
side of their body in the floating ribs).


Uke Left Foot Forward Left Punch (Interior Line of Defense)
1. You step in with your right foot and slide your left foot over so
your center line will cross their attacking arm 20 degrees.
2. Your double outer strike has the right deflecting the left punch and the left hand back knuckles striking into their chest.
3. You then Slice a left backfist into the side of their ribs as you
chamber.
4. Your right hand turns over and grabs their left wrist and pulls down as your left arm slices across their left ribs with the side of the arm. This will cause them to sag forward allowing a spin down with your right hand.
5. As you are pulling down you can use the left outside block to strike up underneath their arm and behind their elbow, causing hyperextesion.


Uke Right Foot Forward Right Punch (Exterior Line of Defense)
1. You step forward with your right foot using a crescent step, to the
outside of their punching arm. (an exterior line of defense). Then
slide your left foot over so your centerline will cross their attacking arm 20 degrees.
2. Your double outer strike has the right deflecting the right punch
and the left hand backfist striking into their chest (under the
attackers arm).
3. You then slice a left backfist across the side of their ribs as you
chamber.
4. You right hand turns over and grabs their left wrist and pulls down
as your left arm slices across their right ribs with the side of your
arm. This will cause them to sag forward allowing a spin down with your right hand.
5. As you are pulling down you can use the left outside block to strike up underneath their arm and behind their elbow, causing hyperextesion.

Alternate ending
4. Your right hand stikes into their kidneys (or arm pit)
5. Your left outside strike srikes into their right armpit.


Uke Right Foot Forward Right Punch
1. You step forward with your right foot using a crescent step, to the
outside of their punching arm (an exterior line of defense). You
crossing hands strike into their armpit or the side of their right ribs.
2. You slide your right foot forward and execute a double outer strike, the right arm strikes into their back because you begin swinging your leg clockwise and end up in right sanchin dachi behind your attacker 
3. You now shift to a posterior line of attack.. Your left arm slices
down across their spine as you chamber your hand.
4. You now punch a) their spine or b) into or across their kidneys.
5. You finish using the left outer block/strike into their back.

Without doubt this also is used in combination with the other
techniques as a 'grab' defense, too.

A Sherman Harrill 'SunNuSu Kata' Variations.

Uke Left Foot Forward Left Punch
1. As you step out with the first transition, your right arm blocks
across the attackers left punch.
2. At the same time your left hand thumb strikes into the inner elbow
area (just behind the elbow). These two motions will bend their arm.
3. Your right arm circles counter-clockwise down and then up into the
outer right middle block. The left arm circles clockwise down and up
into a left thumb strike into the left side of uke's neck.
4. As the right arm continues to cirle down and up (behind uke's
scapula), the left hand descending backfists across uke's chest.
5. The right arm continues to circle counter-clockwise rolling the
attacker down. The left punch is used as a forearm strike into the left side of the attackers neck.
6. In that the attacker has been rolled down and stunned with the neck
strike. As their going down the left outer block is used as a
descending elbow strike into the back of the attackers neck.

Caution is urged in training.

Sanchin - 2d Transition (stepping movement.

Now step with the left foot forward into left sanchin dachi.

In my analysis, I don't always define a kata's technique sequences as
ending on the striking. Another technique is to use the movement
following a strike as a lower body technique. Most often this is seen
as a sweep to assist in completing the motion to down the opponent.

BTW, there is an interesting variation of using the sequence to take
the opponent down. They punch, you do your strike thing, take the next
step to sweep their leg taking them down. Then take the following step
as a knee strike into the arm you've pulled down to demolish the arm.

Without saying, as this series of techniques is first done out of Right Sanchin Dachi, then repeated in Left Sanchin Dachi and finally Right Sanchin Dachi. The bunkai appears to be the same regardless of size.
--
Separate issue, why are things being done in three's?

The most interesting answer I've ever come across comes from Ernie
Rothrock's instructor Sheum Leung. He explains in Tai Chi Chaun the
reason a technique is repeated a third time has to do with the need to
have the moving energy within one's body in the right location to enter the following movement.

Unfortunately my own studies (in karate or tai chi chaun) have not
progressed to the point that I can recognize the movement of my Chi in
technique execution <grin> so I can not attest to the validity of this
concept. But if that was the original reason behind doing techniques
in 'three's', it may explain why the concept is so prevalent.

Victor

Sanchin the Bunkai - 4th continues, 5th movement

After a brief hiatus on Sanchin Bunkai I'm back in the saddle. Some
days there are more things to address than I have hands to get to them.


SANCHIN the Bunkai - 4th Movement Continues

Rei and Opening

Sanchin Movement Review

1. Right foot forward and cross arms before your chest
2. Double outward middle blocks
3. Chamber left hand and then left reverse punch
4. Left outer middle block (both hand in double outward middle blocks)

Continues
4.a. Now you repeat after stepping out with the left foot and using
the right hand to punch followed with a right outer block.
4.b. Now you repeat 3-4 after stepping out with the right foot and
using the left hand to punch followed by a left outer block.
4.c. Then right punch followed by a right outer block
4.d. Then left punch followed by a left outer block

While you can work out a bunkai analysis for the repetition of the
punch and block, I do not feel there is a clear advantage to doing this.

I expect the reason the techniques are being repeated is from the goal
of using the kata to increase the energy of the Sanchin adept.

I intend to discuss my thoughts on the Sanchin-Energy connection when
I've completed my Sanchin Bunkai Analysis.

SANCHIN the Bunkai - 5th Movement

After completing the last double outer block from section 4, both
hands open and parry/block down circling in and out as they move down
like this diagram ")(" .

Personal note - I find myself raising my center (hara) and chest as
the hands descend.

1st potential - Double descending parry/shove against an attack
(interior or exterior)

2nd potential [interior defense] - Attacker Right Foot Forward Right
Punch/Grab.

a. pivot somewhat to the left on the lead right foot.
b. The left hand parries the attackers punch down and out
c. The right forearm slices across the attackers lower ribs with the
same movement

I do not see this as much a knockout as an opening to damage your
attacker and leave room for another attack to follow

I also do not believe you are constrained to do both techniques at the
same time . Joe Swift and I have been having some conversations
regarding the concept that double techniques may actually be done 1-2
with varying effects.

Erle Montague does much the same thing with his analysis for Tai Chi
Chaun double hand technique. By changing both hands timing, on some
occasions they generate an entirely different sort of power. This can
be found in Passai, Seipai, Saifa and SunNuSu kata to name but a few.

3rd Potential - [Exterior Defense] Attacker Left Foot Forward Left
Punch

a. Right foot forward with both hands still in the outer middle block
position, deflecting the punch to the left. The right foot is past the
attackers side.
b. Pivot 180 degrees counter-clockwise on the right foot, both hands
parry/strike down with the palms. The right palm is striking into the
attackers left kidney

Likewise I see this as creating an opening for a following attack.

4th Potential - Against double grabs, straight grabs and cross arm grabs

By shifting and executing this movement, with the one hand on top
moving first, the movement can be used to free yourself from the grabs.

5th Potential - I believe this can be shown as the opening of a
throwing technique too.

As this comes from Joe Swift, I'll just describe the basic mechanics
of the movement, and perhaps Joe can fill in the details.

Attacker - Right Foot Forward right punch/grab

a. With your left foot forward your double outer middle blocks uses
the right hand to deflect the punch to the right.
b. You then pivot 90 degrees to the right on the lead right for,
keeping Sanchin dachi (stance). As both hands turn over your right hand flows down to the attackers wrist and grabs it. Your left palm
continues to circle down and strikes into the groin.
c. As the groin is struck the right hand continues to pull down. 

The struck groin and the descending punching arm cause the opponents
center to shift over your arm and effect a throw.

Sanchin the Bunkai - 6th Movement

After completing the double descending parry/blocks of Section 5, you 
pull your elbows back, close your fists and rotate them palm up until 
they finish resting against both hips.

Next you open the hands and thrust two spear hand (palm up) forwards 
slowly. 

On completion of the nukite strikes, with slow flowing movement, the 
hands are turned over palm down.

[There is an alternative here, where after the nukite thrusts, the 
hands grab and close and turn over (pulling over).]

<At this point the section repeats 3 more times.>

While this may not appear the most interesting section of the kata, 
there are some important tools to develop here, too.

1st Potential (interior defense/attack). Attacker is stepping in
with a right hook punch to your head and their left hand ready to loosen a 2nd head punch with the right.

a. Right foot slides forward and strike into the armpits with both 
spear hands (a double Heart 1 strike?). After the strike use version 
two and grab the chest area from behind the arm pit with both hands, 
dig them into the muscle and pull over and down.

It seems to me this is quite painful. Of f hand I'm not sure how 
immobilizing it can be.

2nd Potential (interior line of defense) Attacker steps in with 
their left foot and grabs your left wrist with their left hand.

a. Turn your right foot to the left, slide your left foot over to 
re-orient your center line to cross the center line of the attackers 
arm.
b. You pull your two hands back into chamber. This pulls the
attacker forward, and overextends their arm.
c. You thrust your two hands out. Your right spears over their left 
arm, bending their grabbing wrist and weakening their grab. 
d. Your left haito strikes across their lower rib cage, the upraised 
thumb knuckle the striking area.
e. When you turn both hands over, your right hand becomes a palm 
strike to complete freeing your arm. Alternatively you might grab 
their wrist as a result of your actions.
f. Your left overturning palm becomes the 2nd of a multiple striking 
sequence, delivering a 2nd strike into the opponents ribs.

This Haito(RidgeHand) to Shuto strike is consistent with a Shotokan 
stylist I know whose system replaces their outer knife hand blocks 
with ridge hand then knife hand multiple strikes. On the other hand 
there's nothing to stop you from using the left ridge hand strike
into the opponents neck either.

Of the two strikes, the neck would obviously get a greater response, 
on the other hand the use of the multiple strike across the lower
ribs (or the solar plexus) gets a response creating an opening for further exploitation.

3rd Potential (exterior line of defense) Attacker grabs both hands

a. Right foot Circles forward, you left foot swings out as you
change your center line to the right. Your right open hand comes up 
underneath your left grabbed arm. As you turn it turns over (of 
course both hands are doing that) and effects a wrist grab release.

4th Potential - Offensive application for the overturning hands.

a. You execute this as the multiple strike (ridge hand turning over 
to shuto strike) with both hands for inreased power although only one 
hand is used.

5th Potential - Defensive or Offensive

a. You strike upwards with both spear hands, into the opponents neck 
area,
b. Then you grab their head and pull it down.

Sanchin Bunkai the Seventh

The Kata Sanchin continues:

From Right Foot Forward Sanchin Dachi you:
1. Draw the right hand back to the center line (palm up)
2. Place the left hand (palm down) underneath the right wrist
3. Step back with the Right foot in a reverse crescent step, ending 
in a left Sanchin Dachi
4. The left hand circles up and down (going counter clockwise) to
end at the left hip, palm forward and fingers down.
5. The right hand draws back to the hip, and when the left hand has 
rolled to 9 o'clock, begins rolling up to before the shoulder with
the fingers facing up and the palm facing front.
6. Both hands are thrust forth (with tension) into left high. Right 
low palm (or thumb) strikes.

Then you continue again:

From Left Foot Forward Sanchin Dachi you:
1. Draw the left hand back to the center line (palm up)
2. Place the right hand (palm down) underneath the left wrist.
3. Step back with the Left foot in a reverse crescent step, ending
in a right Sanchin Dachi
4. The right hand circles up and down (going clockwise) to end at
the right hip, palm forward and fingers down.
5. The left hand draws back to the hip, and when the right hand has 
rolled to 3o'clock, begins rolling up to before the shoulder with the 
fingers facing up, and the palm facing front
6. Both hand are thrust forth (with tension) into right high, left 
low palm (or thumb) strikes.

Finally we arrive at what I consider among the most powerful 
techniques in Karate. Goju's Tora Guchi (Tiger Mouth) or the
Mawashi Uke (or perhaps Uchi). The Roundhouse block/strike combination.

Application 1 - Attacker Right Foot Forward Right Punch to the chest

You respond with an interior line of defense.

1. Your right hand parries across, moving their arm to the left.
2. As your right foot steps back, you left arm (palm up) slides up 
your right arm and parries their arm further outside. 
3. Now slide forward, keeping your left foot forward). Your left
arm , now continuing the kata movement, pressing into the attackers 
center, with their arm causes their body to rotate, which opens the 
neck for a right attack.
4. Your right arm continuing the kata movement takes that opening to 
strike into the neck (or alternately the lower ribs) with the palm
(or thumb).
5. [Logical Continuation] You can always step forward with a right 
crescent step as you turn slightly left, so your leg ends up behind 
their lead leg and sweeps them down.

Variations involve using different tai sabaki (body shifting) to 
change the angle of insertion of the defense, as well as stepping 
forward instead of stepping away from an attack.

Application 2 - Attacker Left Foot Forward Left Punch to the chest

You respond with an exterior line of defense.

1. Your right hand parries across, moving their arm to the left.
2. As your right foot steps back, you left arm (palm up) slides up 
your right arm and parries their arm further outside. 
3. Your left hand hooks over their arm as it draws back to your hip, 
then to press in first roll your left fist up.
4. Your right forearm strikes into their upper arm just behind their 
elbow.

This variation came from Indenosian Pentjac Silyat, as a snake 
strike. Essentially they throw a punch and you work very hard to
break their arm.

Variations involve using different tai sabaki (body shifting) to 
change the angle of insertion of the defense, as well as stepping 
forward instead of stepping away from an attack.

Application 3 - Attacker Right Foot forward Right Punch to the Chest

You respond with an interior line of defense.

1. You step forward with your right foot, Your right hand parries 
across slightly moving their arm across to the left.
2. As your left arm (palm up) slides up your right arm to parry
their arm, you parry their arm with your left, and have it slide over their arm as you pivot on your right foot 180 degrees counter-clockwise to the left.
3. As your left arm presses down and in, your right arm continues
the Tora Guchi technique and strikes behind their elbow into the triceps.

The motion of pressing and striking into the arm as you spin into 
their attack will redirect them forward and continuing will cause
them to spin forward and down.

Application 4 - Attacker grabs both of your wrists with their hands.

You respond with an exterior line of defense.

1. You step forward with your right foot, Your right hand, palm up, 
parries across moving their arm to the left.
2. Your left arm (palm up) slides up your right arm, to turn out and 
parry across that arm, pressing it into their other arm on your left.
3. That press allows you to pull your right hand free.
4. You continue the mawashi uke movement into the back of their left 
arm as their hands are tied up by your left which continues its 
movement too.
5. 
This is a takedown/arm break combination.

Application 5 - Attacker throws a right Round house kick towards your 
head.

You respond with an interior line of defense.

1. You step for forward with your right foot, Your right hand, palm 
up, parries across their leg moving it to the left.
2. Your left arm (palm up) slides up your right arm, to turn out and 
parry across the leg.
3. As your left hand flows across their leg, your right hand circles 
down and strikes out into their solar plexus.
4. You complete the technique by sliding forward with your right 
foot to hook behind their standing leg. That trapping movement as 
well as the strike to the solar plexus will drive the opponent down.

Depending on the angle of insertion and the body shifting (Tai
Sabaki) utilized, you have a wide range of possibilities to address.

The ending section of Isshinryu's Seisan kata can be interpreted as a 
version of Mawashi Uke, likewise it can be found throughout various 
Goju kata, (including Sanchin), Shotokan Unsu kata, and even in some 
version of Matsumura No Hakutsuru (name pending ??), to name a few of 
its possible ailities.

Among the variations possible are shifting from Right Mawashi Uke to 
Left Mawashi Uke, as well as doubles, such as Left Mawashi Uke 
followed by Left Mawashi Uke.

I hope I've expressed some of the potential of Kata Sanchin with this 
bunkai analysis.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Sanchin - Three Battles within me

Sanchin - Three Battles within me (Historical, Utilization and Personal)

When I began my Bunkai analysis of Sanchin Kata (following the Miyagi Chojun version, passed down through Shimabuku Tatsuo and then Lewis Tom and Murray Charles to me), it was driven in many ways by the often repeated statement, 'Sanchin has No Bunkai.'. To my mind I have satisfied that is not the case.

But there is a larger question, 'Why Sanchin?' which still drives my thoughts.

My own three battles revolve around trying to understand the historical development of Sanchin, How it may be utilized in my current teachings and my Personal Battle over this training.

1. Historical Development Considerations

Sanchin Kata apparently came from some original form of Chinese training. Originally taught by Hiagonna Kanryo with Open Hand techniques, Miyagi Chojun changed the form to using Closed Fists, in his Goju Ryu. The form also uses a unique stance, Sanchin Dachi and unique breathing patterns.

The Higaonna's Sanchin incorporated turns and moving in several directions, in addition to the open hand version.

Miyagi reportedly changed the open hands to closed fists. Later he created a 2nd version of Sanchin that was done without turns. The form simply moves forward and moves backward.

A separate version, Ueichi Sanchin retains Open Hand techniques. 

Whether both forms came from the same source is an open question, although both Hiagonna and Ueichi trained in the same section of China.

It is believed that the Chinese form Happoren was the source from which Sanchin developed. While I see some similarity in some of the movement concepts between the two forms, I do not believe there is a clear case for this to be made.

In my opinion, the link to the Chinese origins of Sanchin remains only 
another hypothesis.

Taught by Hiagonna, it was transmitted to Miyagi who founded Goju Ryu. It was also transmitted to Mabuni Kenwa, founder of Shito-ryu.

In 1933 Mabuni first communicate Sanchin to the wider Japanese audience in his book 'Goshin Karate Kenpo - Defense and Attack'. In that he trained with both Hiagonna and Miyagi, I believe that his words are important in our understanding of the role of Sanchin kata. In there Mabuni writes:

"This basic exercise is very important in the practice of Karate.

This kata serves as the basis of all karate kata and it gives the opportunity to learn the practice of the open hand.

From the point of view of physical education, this kata allows first to reinforce all the muscles while preserving the balance and to form the sturdy body and the will that are necessary for the practice of budo, second it allows one to learn to harmonize the breathing, the contraction and the relaxation, and third it is very effective in developing tension resistance.

From the mental point of view, this kata permits augmentation of the vital spirit and practices the capacity of observation, of decision and of reflection. It contributes to form the value of being human.

This initial practice takes on a large importance for those who aim to go further into it, and practice with a calm and quiet spirit. " [Preliminary translation by the author March 2000]

2. Personal Development Considerations

It is my opinion; Sanchin is a derivative of Chinese Chi Kung (Energy 
Development) Forms and Training. In this context I would place Happoren, too. While the movement can be applied, that was most likely not the purpose of the training.

Now the question will be does this training actually carry over into improved martial practice?

I do not believe there is a clear causal link that the Practice of Sanchin kata will develop superior martial arts ability. Consider the many systems who do not utilize that training.

This is not to belittle the difficulty of correct Sanchin practice. Learning the correct sequencing of the tension, the correct tension itself and the unique breathing practices are not a simple study.

It is just my belief (and practice) that those practices do not necessarily develop superior fighting ability.

I think what did happen is the influence of the instructor. If Hiagonna's original instructor drove home extreme Sanchin training, who then in turn did the same to Miyagi and so forth, the profound influence of an instructor who was not to be questioned. And as the way was forged the students followed.

I passed through that causal instructor link. Murray Charles (Reverend and Lt. Col USAF) taught me Sanchin as he had studied it under Lewis Tom and Shimabuku Tatsuo. The version would be in the Miyagi Chojun Sanchin version lineage.

Several years later when I began my studies in Tai Chi Chaun I found those practices in conflict with my Sanchin Practice. As I was totally on my own in my Isshinryu practice (an event which has continued for the past 22 years or so) I decided to set regular Sanchin practice aside so not to cause conflict with my Tai Chi Chaun studies.

And except for instructing my students to give them the same choice, I have not wavered from that decision. I do not believe my students or my own abilities have suffered as a result of that decision.

Yes this becomes subjective, but that is my main contention. If our 
instructor tells us this is important and then we practice it as if it is important, it will so become.

While I fully recognize correct application of power in kata practice remains necessary to develop the adept, at the same time I feel it is the movement flow which overrides all, supported by correct alignment and power. I do not find Sanchin practice (in the Goju lineage) compliments this practice.

[Of note, the Ueichi Ryu practice of Sanchin, done at relatively normal karate speed and relatively normal breathing practice, does not follow those Goju traditions as they follow their Chinese source version of Sanchin Kata.]

3. Utilization Development Considerations

Having described how I set aside the normal practice of Sanchin Kata 
(Isshinryu version) decades ago, my current work on the Bunkai of said 
Sanchin has caused me to rethink this issue.

I currently see Sanchin as a basic exercise of traditional Okinawan karate technique. Where I had just been teaching it as a historical form to my students (alongside sporadic Ueichi Ryu Sanchin studies with Chan Tom of my dojo, a former Ueichi student) of late I have begun using it again, abet with some slight modifications.

I am working the kata at normal karate speed, with normal karate breathing. This is all I currently practice and teach.

I feel this is necessary to develop the bunkai abilities I've previously discussed. Most importantly the Circular roundhouse strikes which finish the form.

I admit this is subjective and perhaps controversial, but it does describe my own approach to Sanchin kata.

Respectfully submitted.

Smith Victor
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

References:

'Goshin Karate Kenpo - Defense and Attack' by Mabuni Kewnwa 1933
I was using my translation from the French, but Mario McKenna's one from the Japanese is a better choice, IMVHO.

'Unante - the Secrets of Karate' by John Sells 1995

'The Kata of Okinawan Isshinryu Karatedo - an Informal Discussion on their Possible Origins' by Joe Swift 2000


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## DavidCC (Oct 8, 2007)

Wow, that's a lot of material, I'm going to print this out and study it in depth. We've started training this form at my school now, this is good timing 

You mentioned a book in the post, it is available through Amazon at 

Zen and the Ways  it sounds good, I am going to add it to my book store.


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## Victor Smith (Oct 8, 2007)

David,

My copy of Leggett's "Zen and the Ways" goes back to the late 1970's. I haven't seen it since then. It may be out of print.


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu (Oct 8, 2007)

I have to admit that I was taught Sanchin a couple years ago but never really trained it seriously.  But after reading your post I'm definately going to go back and give it a second serious chance.  Kudos on an exceptionally informed post!​


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## DavidCC (Oct 8, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> David,
> 
> My copy of Leggett's "Zen and the Ways" goes back to the late 1970's. I haven't seen it since then. It may be out of print.


 
Actually, it may be out of print, but if you click that link above you can buy a copy (well, you don't need one, but anyone else... click the link)


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 8, 2007)

close to the version I know of the form but I know there are a few different ways of doing it. Some preform the kata with full tension on all moves , some with tension on only certian moves, and you say with no tension. It is all the basic same kata and there are many reasons for doing it and each system has its own reason why they do it there way.
I will say you have made a good breakdown of the moves


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## Flying Crane (Oct 8, 2007)

You guys might want to check out this thread:

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54495&highlight=fukien+white+crane&page=2

In my post, #19, I posted links to some video clips of Fukien White Crane kung fu.  The first link I posted was identified by another poster as Sanchin.  Apparently this is the root form that was adapted into the Okinawan arts.  Fukien White Crane had a lot of influence on the development of the Okinawan arts.

just thought you might like to see it...


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 8, 2007)

Three Battles dose look like sanchin done at full speed with a few variations of the way sanchin is done in some schools


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## Flying Crane (Oct 8, 2007)

tshadowchaser said:


> Three Battles dose look like sanchin done at full speed with a few variations of the way sanchin is done in some schools


 

It was suggested by another contributor to that thread that Sanchin actually translates as Three Battles.

I've never studied Fukien White Crane, nor the Okinawan arts, so I don't have any experience with this.  It was just a lucky find that I thought might be interesting and relevant.


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## Victor Smith (Oct 8, 2007)

While I see some parallel ideas in the White Crane forms I'm still a skeptic that Crane is a source for Karate's development. 

The stronger case of course is Sanchin which appears to be the Hiagonna-Miyagi connection and if the stories are correct are based on a Chinese import around the end of the 1800's. Of course Uechi also incorpoates Sanchin, but Uechi, the art and the family, didn't formally move to Okinawa till after WWII. 

That leaves the link to the older Shorin arts. It may be there or it may not be.  I doubt the Okinawan's today are doing serious research to find it, simply because they've developed their own traditions, regardless of what the source may be.

I think that's the true key, to practice your art and make it succeed. The history wasn't meant to be shared, it wasn't documented and in that the originators succeeded, for we cannot prove what they did. We can only experience their efforts ever expanding wavefront.


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## chinto (Oct 8, 2007)

cool analisis!  the system I study teaches the kata and I have started to lern it. It is one of the last kata tought. will have to print that out and look at it in detail. thanks.


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu (Oct 8, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> While I see some parallel ideas in the White Crane forms I'm still a skeptic that Crane is a source for Karate's development.




My appologies to everyone in advance for getting a little off topic (I have a really bad habit.)  But I did want to address the above particular statement.  I have discussed with my Okinawan instructors and they believe that quite a few of the forms in our style (Matsubayashi Shogen Ryu) relate directly back to White Crane.  One of our forms is Rohai which roughly translated is "Vision of a Crane" which includes a couple Crane stances.  There's also a form Gojushiho which includes a crane beak technique.  One of our instructors in the States trains both Shogen Ryu and White Crane and has said that the similarities between the two styles are vast.

Again my appologies for disrupting the thread please feel free to go back to the original topic!


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## chinto (Oct 8, 2007)

wow  cool analisis! will have to print it out and look closely at it! the style I study teaches sachin kata as one of the last kata tought in the system. I am starting to learn it and will be curious to see what your analisis is and how it aplies to what I am learning. ( there do seem to be some smaller diferences in sanchin... we learn the one that is what sensei Higaonna tought as I understand it, and it has some very slight diferences from the standerd Goju version I am told.)


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## shesulsa (Oct 9, 2007)

Admin Note: Duplicate threads combined. -G Ketchmark / shesulsa, MT Assist. Administrator


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## tellner (Oct 9, 2007)

A correction:

Uechi Ryu Sanchin does indeed use dynamic tension. That's how I learned it. That's how every Uechi Black Belt I ever met or talked to performed it. I've heard that in recent years the got rid of the truly dangerous version of reverse breathing they were doing, but DT is absolutely part of the program.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 9, 2007)

Tellner - how was the reverse breathing dangerous?  Isn't reverse breathing the tradition way of performing that kata?


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## tellner (Oct 9, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Tellner - how was the reverse breathing dangerous?  Isn't reverse breathing the tradition way of performing that kata?



The sort of reverse breathing we are talking about really is dangerous. This isn't the gentle reverse breathing you get in some Taoist and Yogic exercises. It involves almost constant tension and abdominal compression and exhalation only in short puffs on relaxation. Holding the breath and compressing the abdomen on exertion/striking causes a massive spike in blood pressure. That's why modern exercise science says you shouldn't do it. Back when Matson wrote his "Uechi Ryu Karate Do" book he noted that a lot of Karate masters died of circulatory system problems. That's a big part of the reason. 

A teacher in a different system watched me do Sanchin the old way and said "For the love of G-d don't do that. Your guts will shoot out your butt and you'll have a stroke." Some time after that I looked up my old UR teacher and asked if he still did the breathing that way. His response? "No. Guys were getting hemorrhoids and strokes."

It's dangerous. If you need some extra power it has some limited uses. But you'll hurt yourself if you practice it regularly. The better you are the more damage. Yes, it's "traditional". That doesn't mean that it's a good idea. In another post I say that if tradition doesn't serve important goals it should be tossed without hesitation. This is a classic example.


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## Senjojutsu (Oct 9, 2007)

tellner said:


> The sort of reverse breathing we are talking about really is dangerous. This isn't the gentle reverse breathing you get in some Taoist and Yogic exercises. It involves almost constant tension and abdominal compression and exhalation only in short puffs on relaxation. Holding the breath and compressing the abdomen on exertion/striking causes a massive spike in blood pressure. That's why modern exercise science says you shouldn't do it. Back when Matson wrote his "Uechi Ryu Karate Do" book he noted that a lot of Karate masters died of circulatory system problems. That's a big part of the reason.
> 
> A teacher in a different system watched me do Sanchin the old way and said "For the love of G-d don't do that. Your guts will shoot out your butt and you'll have a stroke." Some time after that I looked up my old UR teacher and asked if he still did the breathing that way. His response? "No. Guys were getting hemorrhoids and strokes."
> 
> It's dangerous. If you need some extra power it has some limited uses. But you'll hurt yourself if you practice it regularly. The better you are the more damage. Yes, it's "traditional". That doesn't mean that it's a good idea. In another post I say that if tradition doesn't serve important goals it should be tossed without hesitation. This is a classic example.


Todd, 

Thanks for this informative post.
Even as a MA newbie back in the day I always wondered about this breathing technique when I was first shown it twenty-five plus years ago. 
It seemed so unnatural and forced - I did not pursue Uechi Ryu study for long. (Damn short actually)


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## Flying Crane (Oct 9, 2007)

tellner said:


> The sort of reverse breathing we are talking about really is dangerous. This isn't the gentle reverse breathing you get in some Taoist and Yogic exercises. It involves almost constant tension and abdominal compression and exhalation only in short puffs on relaxation. Holding the breath and compressing the abdomen on exertion/striking causes a massive spike in blood pressure. That's why modern exercise science says you shouldn't do it. Back when Matson wrote his "Uechi Ryu Karate Do" book he noted that a lot of Karate masters died of circulatory system problems. That's a big part of the reason.
> 
> A teacher in a different system watched me do Sanchin the old way and said "For the love of G-d don't do that. Your guts will shoot out your butt and you'll have a stroke." Some time after that I looked up my old UR teacher and asked if he still did the breathing that way. His response? "No. Guys were getting hemorrhoids and strokes."
> 
> It's dangerous. If you need some extra power it has some limited uses. But you'll hurt yourself if you practice it regularly. The better you are the more damage. Yes, it's "traditional". That doesn't mean that it's a good idea. In another post I say that if tradition doesn't serve important goals it should be tossed without hesitation. This is a classic example.


 

Could you give a little more detailed explanation of the reverse breathing you are talking about?  How is inhaling and exhaling coordinated with the movement and the tension.  thx.


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## tellner (Oct 9, 2007)

Do you mean the Uechi Ryu reverse breathing or the other sort?

In Uechi Ryu's version of Sanchin most of the body's muscles are kept in severe tension. The diaphragm is contracted. The abdominal muscles are fully engaged. The breath is held during exertion and released quickly on recovery. Inhalation occurs upon resetting the muscular tension. 

The other sorts of reverse breathing with which I am familiar involve breathing in through the mouth and out through the nose as well compressing the abdomen during inhalation and expanding it during exhalation. I've never practiced that sort very much.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 9, 2007)

tellner said:


> Do you mean the Uechi Ryu reverse breathing or the other sort?
> 
> In Uechi Ryu's version of Sanchin most of the body's muscles are kept in severe tension. The diaphragm is contracted. The abdominal muscles are fully engaged. The breath is held during exertion and released quickly on recovery. Inhalation occurs upon resetting the muscular tension.
> 
> The other sorts of reverse breathing with which I am familiar involve breathing in through the mouth and out through the nose as well compressing the abdomen during inhalation and expanding it during exhalation. I've never practiced that sort very much.


 
I guess I wanted to get a description of the dangerous method, to see if I ever use that in any of my forms.  I do some tension in sil nim tao form in Wing Chun, and fu hok in Hung Gar, but it doesn't sound like I am doing the breathing as you describe.

Generally, I use tension on the movements which can be either extending or contracting movements, and the strikes, but I am exhaling thru the entire movement, in time with the duration of the movement which can be slow.  At the end of the movement I relax and exhale any remainder, and  then inhale.  Then, set the dynamic tension for the next movement and slowly exhale thru the movement again.  This sounds like it is different from the method you described above.  Would you agree?

It sounds like the difference is in actually holding the breath, which I do not do.

I have also heard that Goju and Hung Gar people tend to die at an early age due to heart disease.  Of course there are always exceptions: Hung Gar master Lam Jo in Hong Kong lived into his mid 90s, and was still fierce up to the end.  I'm not entirely sure he has passed away yet, he might still be alive.


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## Victor Smith (Oct 9, 2007)

Breathing hard.

I'm afraid it's another old tale that hard Goju-style sanchin will destroy your health. As most old tales it has its origins from several points.

1. Okinawans are among the oldest lived people on earth, so if you practice karate and die before your 90's, it must have been karate's fault.
2. Normal rivalry between people, always looking to criticize.

First if this is true, where is evidence that doing hard Sanchin had immediate physiological bad results. Who are the peoples who've died early becuase they practiced that way? What legitimate 'vetted' medical evidence exists for any of these claims.

There are many senior Goju masters who've lived very long lives even though they practiced Sanchin.

There are always other factors to consider. WWII caused great devistation about 1/2 of Okinawan died. There was starvation, there were horrible physical living conditions for many years. There were the psychological effects of being a survivor, of being conquered again, of losing so many famili members and friends. All of which may have legitmately impacted anyones life span too.

Folks, use a little logic when you hear and see these old tales being repeated.

Goju style Sanchin follows one level of tension.
Tou'on Ryu Sanchin (which came from the same source, Hiagonna Kanryo) uses a much softer breathing and power formula.
Uechi style Sanchin is not as tense as Goju's, and the breathing is more natural.

But there is so much variation between any one of the groups, no one description is really more than just generally descriptive.

My own personal choice was based on just one issue, I wanted to use Sanchin itself to drop people, after listening for years that Sanchin was just a basic kata. While I'm not unique, there are not many others who'e made the same choice.

Definitions are always difficult. Reverse Breathing has a number of different answers. One is instead of exhaling on striking, instead always 100% of the time inhale while striking. That is not the only answer, it does have it's internal logic for it's practice and you absolutely cannot do it on your own, it takes a ton of practice under a good instructor.

Myself I see value in both regular and 'reverse' breathing. It depends on the technique and more importantly how one defines a kata sequence.


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## tellner (Oct 9, 2007)

I'm afraid the dangers are real. It's not just rival karate politics. Abdominal compression raises blood pressure. Abdominal compression combined with holding your breath during exertion raises it more. You can get dangerous spikes in BP this way. We know it can lead to micro-hemorrhages  in the brain and add an unhealthy load to the circulatory system.

In other words, it's bad for you. We have good objective evidence from modern science. 

The sort of thing that Flying Crane is talking about is not nearly as bad. If it's done in reasonable doses it's probably not a danger to a healthy person. The other stuff? Not so good. And it's a core practice of Uechi Ryu. I'm glad they changed the way they did the form.


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## Victor Smith (Oct 9, 2007)

Tellner, I've had a surgeon in my program for many years with a strong Goju background (15 years training), he never found creedance that Sanchin would hurt you.  Again I would only ask for significent medical evidence of Sanchin causing harm and then I'd let Doc review it.  He made it clear that conversation is a very poor method to evaluate medical topics and I concur at that.

Of course hard sanchin does have a physiological result, but it would take very long term sustained training I'm sure to even register an effect.  In my experience even those schools I've seen that train in Sanchin rarely begin to use it to that level. But my experience does not constitute an average, just what I've seen.

Goju's source came from Hiagonna Kanryo who trained in China in the 1800's. From him came the Goju Ryu version and the Tou'on Ryu version.

Uechi's source also came from China in the late 1800's, but it is likely not the same source as Hiagonna's, hence the many differences.

Sanchin or 3 battles is found in many Chinese systems, is not the same from system to system and it is not known if any of the Chinese sanchin forms seen today were the progenetors of Hiagonna's training.


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## chinto (Oct 10, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> Tellner, I've had a surgeon in my program for many years with a strong Goju background (15 years training), he never found creedance that Sanchin would hurt you. Again I would only ask for significent medical evidence of Sanchin causing harm and then I'd let Doc review it. He made it clear that conversation is a very poor method to evaluate medical topics and I concur at that.
> 
> Of course hard sanchin does have a physiological result, but it would take very long term sustained training I'm sure to even register an effect. In my experience even those schools I've seen that train in Sanchin rarely begin to use it to that level. But my experience does not constitute an average, just what I've seen.
> 
> ...


 
I hate to say it but sustained training hard at sanchin ( as in every day) is not healthy for people who are midle aged .. or even younger.. can couse high blood pressure and things.
but like any thing else in moderation provably not a problem. 
I know that meany of the old senseis on Okinawa sugest that older practioners not do the full tensioning hard every day.


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## tellner (Oct 10, 2007)

Victor, I know you like your style. I'm not attacking it. But the things we are describing are not brain surgery. They are basic modern medicine. 

We know that this stuff raises blood pressure while you're doing it. Any first year medical student or grad student in biology/physiology can explain how and why with diagrams. 

We know that transient spikes in blood pressure can have bad effects on the circulatory system especially but not limited to the small cerebral and cardiac vessels.

We also know that the effects tend to be cumulative.

At the other end so to speak it's beyond any sort of question that severe abdominal compression can contribute to hemorrhoid's. 

This sort of thing has been such common knowledge in sports like weight lifting that it does not even need to be mentioned.

Sanchin as done by Uechi Ryu practitioners back in the day has all of these characteristics. The "old Uechi teacher" I referred to earlier was Frank Gorman. 100% dead center traditional Uechi Ryu from a very long time ago. 

If basic Western science does not convince you, perhaps the voice of long experience intimately involved in the subject matter will. As you recall I said that he confirmed what I had suspected and Guru Brandt Bollers had said. He and other senior practitioners noticed that there was a significant increase in the rate of vascular illnesses and injuries among long term practitioners. That is why he and many others modified their training.

A young person with elastic blood vessels would certainly be at less risk than a middle aged or older player, especially one with any sort of hypertension. But that doesn't mean the risk is not there and that it will not manifest later in life. 

We have science, anecdote and the advice of respected stylists with long experience. What more do you need? What would you consider an acceptable standard of evidence.


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## tellner (Oct 10, 2007)

There are some very deep questions here about what kata are and their proper use. I haven't done Karate in a long time, but the use of patterned movement in training works the same for humans everywhere. 

At one level it's just waving your arms and legs around. You do it because you're told to. It doesn't have anything to do with the way you fight. It might as well be marching band for all the good it's doing you. Unfortunately, that's the level that most schools teach at. You get fed some malarkey about how that is the "Art" portion of the program or "It contains all the self defense you'll ever need if you just do it a hundred thousand more times" or some such. What this usually means is that the teacher doesn't have the faintest idea how to use the kata, but that was what he was taught. So by gum he'll keep the Flame alive by passing it along.

The surest sign that you're dealing with someone at that level of understanding is that his fighting bears little or no relation to the structured movement exercises of the style. 

You're obviously well beyond that. 

Another way to look at it is as a collection of techniques to be used in different situations. This move is supposed to be applied that way. This sequence represents someone blocking a punch, doing a wristlock, pulling the opponent down, turning and throwing him and kicking him in the face when he tries to stand up. _[That one is actually straight out of the Uechi Ryu version of Sanchin] _

Sometimes a kata is designed for exactly that purpose. Not always.

There's a closely related phase of using kata in training. You are trying to get the way you fight in line with the curriculum. So you research the forms heavily to see what you can extract from them. Your teacher pulls applications out, and you learn what the moves can do. 

At other points along the line you come up with things. Or you see new stuff. After you pick yourself up off the floor and your eyes start tracking again you say "I need to remember this. It reminds me a lot of the Mutual Affection movement in Purple Dinosaur Expresses Universal Love." It becomes as much a destination for knowledge as a source. That's an awkward way of putting it. If that doesn't work try "You start to put stuff into the form so that you can organize what you know and access it quickly." 

Another way to look at it is as a way of learning proper movement and body mechanics. 

When you're at a considerably higher level you have more technique than you'll ever use, reams of information and good body mechanics. The form becomes a way of tying it all together. This is often the point where it starts getting simpler. You know the stuff. It's internalized enough so that you don't need constant reminders, just something to reference to. The form really does contain everything you know, so practicing it is a shorthand way of keeping everything in good working order. 

Eventually if you've stuck with it and done thirty hard years of training instead of going through the first year thirty times the forms become superfluous. 

Up in these last couple levels where the air is thinner a lot of the complicated explicit movements are a waste of time. If the forms are well designed you have a manageable set of root movements and fundamental body mechanics which stand for or can generate technique out the wazoo. 

I think that's why the couple of books I have (and the teacher I had) say Sanchin is karate for the master. It's entirely root movements from which you can derive or remember almost everything else. That's why there's not a lot there that _looks like_ technique. It isn't an explicit catalog of "He does this, you do that." It's the basis of the system or how you do karate. But that only has meaning if you've made the long trek through the rest of the process.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 10, 2007)

tellner:  thank you for several very interesting posts.


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## Victor Smith (Oct 10, 2007)

Tellner,

Sanchin, just to take Goju Sanchin as an example, covers a very wide range of practices, some harder, some softer and as in most martial discussions is not readily categorized as what the training is.

Evaluating the effects of Sanchin isn&#8217;t brain surgery, but it is still more than making assumptions of first year medical students or grad students too. That Sanchin training will have an effect long term on the circulatory system, etc. takes more than just assumptions.

To make an informed decision about any detrimental effects to hard Goju Sanchin practice, without qualified medical research on the issue, there are a number of questions that should be answered first, IMO.

1.	Who were the individuals that had their lives shortened because of Sanchin practice? Only by looking at the case histories involved can we determine if there were other factors that might have been the cause too.
2.	Who were the individuals that had those hemorrhoids you mentioned that Sanchin was the cause?
3.	What was the level of Sanchin practice involved? How frequent, how long in duration, what other physical practices did the individual engage in that might be contributing factors both in karate as well as their lives?
4.	Looking at the individual case histories, there are factors such as family traits, etc. that must also be involved.

I&#8217;ve associated with Goju stylists for over 30 years who have not evidenced your results. Likewise there are Seniors on Okinawa practicing Goju into their 90&#8217;s.

Without such information generalizations about the result of Sanchin training are but conversational logic. If the proof is there I&#8217;m not trying to dispute it, I just haven&#8217;t seen anything that resembles logical proof to make an assessment about Sanchin training.

It&#8217;s not that Western Science can&#8217;t convince me, after all I have a Surgeon among my students, it&#8217;s just that the science hasn&#8217;t been applied to study the way scientific study must take place.

I practice Sanchin differently than we&#8217;re discussing. This topic is not a result of my own practice or teachings.

I&#8217;ve also read George Mattson talk about Uechi from both a hard and a soft training perspective. Since Mattson Sensei was one of the earliest Uechi Instructors in the states, he claims the very hard Uechi he originally practices was incorrect and while he has worked for some time to soften the practice, there are many who have not come to his understanding.

Of course Sanchin touces on the use of kata. My personal take is Sanchin is to be used.

On the whole I see the use Kata as a combined tool house of technique, open to variable definition as to what a technique within a kata is. I also see kata as a tool to develop the energy in it&#8217;s technique execution, the more precise you can execute the greater physical energy you can place within those techniques (also open to variable definition as to what a technique within a kata is).

Then kata is combined with application study, from the early ones to the the more advanced applications to understand the potential. Next the study moves from planned attack to planned attack with variable responses to unplanned attack and unplanned defense with no limitation on techniques, except respect to not use the technique to destroy the other.

All of which is open ended because learning how to bind those developing energies into the applications causes never ending change.

Multiply all of the above by the system of training you actually follow and you&#8217;re talking decades of work.

None of which is really necessary, but the effective results of that study provide a lifetime of study into some of karate&#8217;s aspects.


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## tellner (Oct 10, 2007)

Therefore, I'll be glad to talk with you about the technical qualities of kata or combat. I will not say a single other word about matters of physiology or science absent some indication that we have anything to talk about.

You are defending what you see as an attack on the fundamental principles and practices of your style. I'm not attacking it or you. 

Now, as to your analysis of the kata...

You've definitely spent a lot of time drawing stuff out of it. It's a very worthwhile thing and a great accomplishment. From my perspective it's pretty clear that Sanchin - at least the version I've learned - is not a collection of techniques and applications. It's a fundamental technical kata embodying principles, body mechanics and root movements. That does not relegate it to some sort of second-class status because it's "basic". Rather, it elevates it to the level of something that only really comes into its own when you have put in time and internalized the system.


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## Victor Smith (Oct 10, 2007)

Tellner,

No problems at my end either.

The material I shared on Sanchin is about 8 or 9 years old in where I was looking at things at that time. I feel it is a useful way to begin to look at one aspect of kata application potential study.

I would suggest there is much more that can only be expressed over personal sharing during training. Working on the underlying principles behind the techniques application potential would be one aspect.

I only hope this inspires some work on those who are interested. It takes much more than words to get to the simple starting point that each aspect of a kata utilized will be able to drop anyone.

That's a larger journey.

Or the intersection of the arts finding everything in a kata works too. Of course for that I normally work on Chinto, which has almost the complete aikido vocabulary and a ton of the Indonsian tjimande I trained in a bit, as well as tai chi's da lu too.

But that's a topic for another day...


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## tellner (Oct 10, 2007)

Definitely. Personal communication and seeing and feeling it is much better. I've been through a number or teachers with a number of ways of using forms (whatever you want to call them). In retrospect most of them didn't have a clue as to how kata can be used in training. Your work is a huge step in the right direction. IT would be nice to meet some day and pursue some of these ideas a little further.


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## chinto (Oct 11, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> Tellner,
> 
> No problems at my end either.
> 
> ...


 

once again I guess my responce would be that like any thing else, moderation is a good thing.  the training that hard tensioning and 'iron body training' that is part of sanchin kata in meany styles is not a bad thing in moderation.  Age, health, and other things are a factor for any practioner to consider.  
The ability to take a hit as part of an attack is a factor in any fight. Please remember that on Okinawa at least entill after WWII the winner of any fight on the street was considerd the one still alive!  I would prepose the hypothisis that regardless if you are on the streets of naha,  or shuri, or portland oregon, or san francisco, or new york new york, or london england that if a man attacks you on the street the same criteria is not unreasonable! Survival is the core of karate regardless of style.  ( well at least as far as I am concerned)  
That being said, moderation is a good thing in almost anything you can name except in the mist of combat its self! so that would be a good thing to do in that regard, use moderation. So if you are just begaining, or some one who has 10 years training: I would sugest that you consult your Sensei and consider your Health and age in how you train. Like any thing else things change.


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## tellner (Oct 11, 2007)

Excellent advice, Chinto. 

Doing hard Sanchin training wasn't an issue when I was 17. A quarter century later I'm reaching the age where my parents' gift of hypertension has kicked in. I'd have to be a lot more careful. 

Being able to take a hit is definitely important. No matter how good you are one really solid punch at the right time and in the right place can ruin your day. My Shaykh said "When I was young I got into fights. I found that it was not the one who was willing to hurt the other one more who won. It was the one who was ready to be hurt more."


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## punisher73 (Oct 12, 2007)

Dynamic tension as done in sanchin does no more to stress the heart and blood pressure as hard exercise such as weightlifting when it is done correctly.  The part that IS dangerous is when you hold the breath while exerting it's called the valsalva manuever (sp?) and it will cause you to pass out.  Weightlifters do this and have died while holding their breath during a heavy lift and then passing out and having the bar kill them.

Here is an article where sanchin is medically tested as compared to an activity like weightlifting

http://www.olemiss.edu/orgs/karate/sanchin.html


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## tellner (Oct 12, 2007)

It's precisely that breath-holding which is the issue. And I'm glad that it's been largely abandoned.


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## JWLuiza (Oct 12, 2007)

Victor,

Quick Note:  Sanchin does translate as three battles and the white crane version is related to the sanchin that was brought over into Okinawa... much like humans and apes have a common ancestor...   (I'll let you decide which sanchin has opposable thumbs).

Wikipedia's article is pretty well documented.  There is another thread where the various versions of sanchin are all performed...  Two okinawan and two white crane versions all side by side.
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54286



best,

John


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## Flying Crane (Oct 12, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> Victor,
> 
> Quick Note: Sanchin does translate as three battles and the white crane version is related to the sanchin that was brought over into Okinawa... much like humans and apes have a common ancestor...  (I'll let you decide which sanchin has opposable thumbs).
> 
> ...


 

I wanted to see that as well, but the video attachment doesn't seem to work anymore.


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## Victor Smith (Oct 12, 2007)

John,

While I understand your points, and yes I've seen the 4 on one video, it depends on where you're standing. One person can see them and see the similarities, another will watch them and see the differences (which I guess is where I am).

Without outstanding documentation and/or seeing a Chinese version which really parallels what Okinawa's is I prefer to to remain a 'Doubting Thomas' on the issue.

For one thing I don't think to do good Sanchin of any type of practice you have to have anything to do with the White Crane. If you do and it helps you put on your hat, great to you too.

For example while I've been doing Isshinryu for 35 years I've also been doing Yang Tai Chi Chaun for 30 years. Yes the Yang does re-inforce my personal Isshinryu, but most of my students do not practice Tai Chi and their Isshinryu is fine on it's own, as are others who don't to tai chi too.

Until the day I see stronger proof I'll remain a skeptic, BUT in no case should my choices influcence anyone from making their own decisions.

It's what makes the world an interesting place after all.

PS. While the historical discussion is interesting what really fuels my fires is how to apply technique. Consider I am of the opinion Sanchin is a superior way to enter someone who boxes. Now can you figure out why I state that, from a tacitical point of view. There's an interesting topic.


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## cstanley (Oct 12, 2007)

There are things that Sanchin teaches that are more important than any bunkai you may reach for or try to assign to the kata. Stance, toes and feet gripping the floor, hip position and movement, control of hara, breath control, and other things are its primary purpose. We do not do Sanchin, Tensho, and Seisan kata with the heavy tension breathing that many kai use. It is audible, but much lighter. The inhale is faster, as is the exhale. The hara is pushed forward more quickly. There is some rising and sinking, but not over done. Those ryu that do not practice Sanchin get the same principles from Naihanchi. 

The dynamic tension argument is an old one. One of my senior students is a physician and he does not think the heavy tension is that good for you. We have never done it that way, so it doesn't matter. But, it is not necessary to do Sanchin that way to get the benefits.


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## JWLuiza (Oct 12, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> John,
> 
> While I understand your points, and yes I've seen the 4 on one video, it depends on where you're standing. One person can see them and see the similarities, another will watch them and see the differences (which I guess is where I am).
> 
> ...



Is your position that they have no relationship at all?


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## Victor Smith (Oct 13, 2007)

Is your position that they have no relationship at all?

From my perspective it remains a question.


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## chinto (Oct 13, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> Is your position that they have no relationship at all?
> 
> From my perspective it remains a question.


 
I would think that there is some relationship between them, as to how close and how much in each direction could be questioned resonably.

My personal OPINON.. please note it is Opinion is that Kanryo Higaonna brought back the basic kata and either combined it with a version already tought in naha, or perhaps modified it slightly to what he wanted it to do. remember he was trained in 3 styles of chinese boxing / Chuan Fa. namely Ryu Ryo Ko, also Ru Ru Ko and Wai Shin Zan  all styles from Fuchou provance of China. 

 So it makes sense that there was at least some influince on sanchin kata from these systems and provably from one of the several fuchou crane systems.


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## Victor Smith (Oct 13, 2007)

I understand your logic, but time has made me extremely cynical about any of the sources we have to use to make our assumptions.

Too many texts are just copying something that was written in the past with no supporting proof, and in time too much remains hazy.

It's just the seniors did a superb job keeping their arts hidden and the origins shrouded in mystery, leaving just oral history.

In the end what difference does it make? I don't see White Crane stylists really wanting to learn karate, and I don't really see the Goju seniors really wanting to learn White Crane. The arts are different and will remain that way.

Keyboard wishing aside, how does anyone really prove anything? Who did what when, who did what where, how did something really happen.

We can look at what we have today and try to extrapolate what occured before, and while useful if we find a use for our studies, it makes little difference in the end.

Authenticity is simply my fist smashing through your face a the right time.

How does it ever get more authentic than that.

In fact the most documentation we have is what was created in Japan in the 20's-40's, when the Okinawan seniors (Funakoshi, Mabuni, Motobu and supporters like Nagaimine) went out of their way to document their arts by sharing material that had never been released before.

But that material was written for a special audience, the ruling Japanese Martial Arts establishment, pre-WWII, to show the historical roots and the technical value of the Okinwan arts. They were trying to be a player in the Japanese universe, to protect their homeland, friends, family and themselves by gaining credibility than just being a poor island Japan ruled.

Even what they shared, such as the Bubishi in Mabuni's 'Seipai No Kata' in 1934, was only for a historical link, not as proof of anything else.

We can interpret or read into their sharings as we will, but that doesn't constitute proof either.

So we have questions what the truth actually was? Is that really a problem. I was trained to work and make my art work and have always done so. I was never trained that I needed to add xyz to make it happen.

Through the sharing of many friends I did gain some understanding of what else is there.

In fact one friend an extremely knowledgable Chinese stylist with 40 years work in those arts has his own opinion where the Okinawan arts came from. He feels the energy release in Hsing Yi is closest to what karate represents.

Which is based on his own experience and observation, and you won't see anyone else looking in that direction to my best experience.

Belife is wonderful after all, for NOBODY should BELIEVE anything I say. They should make up their own mind.

pleasantly,


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## chinto (Oct 14, 2007)

I was not there true, but I understand that there is no evedence that the training in china was not undertaken, and there are aparently some records that do indicate he went to china... I will except the goju folks history that he did study in china..  remember Higaonna tought Shorei ryu and not Goju.. that was Chojin Miyagi... I understand there was some slight changes made by Miyagi. I am not a Goju man so can not say for sure if there are changes or not between  what Higaonna and Miyagi tought, but assuming that as the goju folks say that Higaonna had some karate training before he went to china I can see where that training might influince how he saw and interpeteted some of what he learned in china and therefore  what became Shorei ryu.  I would still submit that chinese influince on and maybe even partial origan of Sanchin kata  seems resonable, perhaps not absolutely beyond doubt, but logical and resonable.


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## seasoned (Nov 8, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> You guys might want to check out this thread:
> 
> http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54495&highlight=fukien+white+crane&page=2
> 
> ...


 
I would definitely agree with you about Fukien white crane and its influence on the development of the Okinawan Arts. The bottom line of any Martial art is the development of power and the smooth transfer of that power into our techniques. The White Crane theory for moving hard qigong and Okinawan Sanchin draw a very convincing parallel. Sorry for the rant, but to understand Sanchin is to understand Okinawan GoJu.


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## seasoned (Nov 12, 2007)

cstanley said:


> There are things that Sanchin teaches that are more important than any bunkai you may reach for or try to assign to the kata. Stance, toes and feet gripping the floor, hip position and movement, control of hara, breath control, and other things are its primary purpose. We do not do Sanchin, Tensho, and Seisan kata with the heavy tension breathing that many kai use. It is audible, but much lighter. The inhale is faster, as is the exhale. The hara is pushed forward more quickly. There is some rising and sinking, but not over done. Those ryu that do not practice Sanchin get the same principles from Naihanchi.
> 
> The dynamic tension argument is an old one. One of my senior students is a physician and he does not think the heavy tension is that good for you. We have never done it that way, so it doesn't matter. But, it is not necessary to do Sanchin that way to get the benefits.


 
First of all I think that cstanley came closes to my understanding of kata Sanchin. The kata is not a dynamic tension kata, but it is the most important kata in Okinawan GoJu. It is all about Breath control, structure, and movement. These are principles that apply to any and all Martial Arts and not just Okinawan GoJu. It just so happens Okinawan GoJu focuses more on it. Breath control, not breath restriction are key to high blood pressure. I have seen the eye popping demos with the red faces with so much muscle tightness that you trembled. This is not good and also not right. The breath should flow freely out of the mouth while the tip of the tongue touches the roof of the mouth. This kata is all about gaining the connection with the ground where our power comes from and transferring that connection and power through our body and out our hands. There are no kicks in Sanchin because the kata is not about techniques but it is all about connection and power transfer. This power transfer is accomplished with body alignment or structure accompanied with breath to produce power. If anyone has ever done a bench press you know what I am talking about. In pushing weight off your chest you need to combine your breath with good body form and the weight with move off you chest. Because movement is involved in self defense you now have to learn to combine the structure with the breath corresponding with balance and movement. In sanchin movement, the foot goes out makes contact with the ground and the body weight follows. These are the important aspects of Sanchin. It is one of the first kata taught for the above reason. Without it you will try to get your power from muscle only instead of good body mechanics and this is not what true power transfer is all about. In GoJu, which means hard/soft you are learning to apply power and also have speed. If you apply to much power you sacrifice speed if you apply to much speed you sacrifice power. If I may use the pun "float like a butterfly and sting like a bee" then this is what kata Sanchin is all about and what it is trying to teach. I have heard it called effortless power. With Sanchin as the base in Okinawan GoJu you now go on to apply these principles to all other kata. I know I am writing in a post that is over a month and a half old but it is never to late to add input, I hope. J Cheer
Dont show me a thousand techniques but show me a few principles I can apply within my techniques. I dont know who coined this saying but it makes good sense.


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## Shinzen (Jan 30, 2008)

Nice information.  I have practiced alot of Sanchin versions, and I concur, despite its simplicity of motion, Sanchin has a lot to offer.  If you practice it...it will 'speak' to you.  You will see self-defense applications that others miss. Keep up the good work.


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