# Wing Tsun or Wing Tsjun?



## Thapir (Aug 11, 2009)

Greetings,

first of all hello..I'm new to this forum, but luckily not to Martial Arts. I've (only) been training Jodo for about one year, but I feel it's time for me to pick up another Martial Art. One which puts its emphasize on more 'realistic' fighting than, the Art of weapon-wielding.

I've been searching, mailing, ... around for quite some time now. And I'm mainly interested in the great Martial Art Wing Chun. In September I'll be moving to some other City for my school, and so I started looking around for a club over there. And this is where my issue comes from.

I've found two 'different' schools, where one is the well-known Wing Tsun Leung Ting system school. Where Sifu Krause is the Head at our province.

The other school, is called Wing Tsjun and comes from Allan Wong's "departement" and bigger organisation called Martial Arts International (www.wingtsjun.com).

Now I was wondering if any of you has any experience with both these schools. Because the price for both is the same when taking 2 trainings/Week. Even though, the Leung Ting school "gives" 1 hour more training for the same price I do have to travel to a city nearby for the second training. Which ofcourse will costs some aswell, especially as I do not own my own car just yet.

I'm going to check out both school-trainings in about two weeks, but it would be nice if I could get a hold already about what the difference would be.

I'm sorry for this newbie question, but I love to be as well-informed as I can possibly be. And since I can't go out try-out for the upcoming 2 weeks just yet, I've decided to gather as much info as possible already!

Thanks already,


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## Thapir (Aug 11, 2009)

Thapir said:


> Greetings,
> 
> first of all hello..I'm new to this forum, but luckily not to Martial Arts. I've (only) been training Jodo for about one year, but I feel it's time for me to pick up another Martial Art. One which puts its emphasize on more 'realistic' fighting than, the Art of weapon-wielding.
> 
> ...



I made an important typo, I ment Allan Fong! 

Cheers,


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## yak sao (Aug 11, 2009)

Leung Ting started teaching Wing Tsun in Hong Kong back in the 60's. To differentiate his method from other Wing Chun/Ving Tsun clans, he chose that particular spelling. Also, there's a story that "WC" is the abbreviation for water closet and he didn't want his style to be thought of as the bathroom style.
Allan Fong was a student of Leung Ting, in fact he was with Leung Ting when the system was brought to Germany in the 70's. This became the start of Keith Kernspecht's EWTO organization.
Mr Fong moved to the USA from HK in 1983, in 1989, I believe, he left LT's organization to teach on his own.
LT is very much the businessman, and his spelling of WingTsun is copywrited. But you'll see that many of LT/KK students keep the WT initials to show their link to this branch. ( Emin Boztepe : Wing Tzun,
Sergio Iadorola : Wing Tjun, Allan Fong/ Thommy Bohlig: Wing Tsjun.)
Both Sergio and Thommy Bohlig were former students of the EWTO and left the organization to train with Allan Fong.
Bottom line, if you're wanting to train the WT system then I think you will be happy whichever route you take. Both are quality instructors teaching sound martial arts.
.Good Luck.


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## Thapir (Aug 11, 2009)

yak sao said:


> Leung Ting started teaching Wing Tsun in Hong Kong back in the 60's. To differentiate his method from other Wing Chun/Ving Tsun clans, he chose that particular spelling. Also, there's a story that "WC" is the abbreviation for water closet and he didn't want his style to be thought of as the bathroom style.
> Allan Fong was a student of Leung Ting, in fact he was with Leung Ting when the system was brought to Germany in the 70's. This became the start of Keith Kernspecht's EWTO organization.
> Mr Fong moved to the USA from HK in 1983, in 1989, I believe, he left LT's organization to teach on his own.
> LT is very much the businessman, and his spelling of WingTsun is copywrited. But you'll see that many of LT/KK students keep the WT initials to show their link to this branch. ( Emin Boztepe : Wing Tzun,
> ...



Thanks! I'm going to check both out, to see which sifu (+ his way of giving training) works the best for me. I just thought that there could be some big difference between them (the reason for splitting up or so..).

I'll keep it up to date!


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## geezer (Aug 12, 2009)

yak sao said:


> Leung Ting is very much the businessman, and his spelling of WingTsun is *copywrited.*


 
Actually this is what you are *supposed* to believe. But, in the USA at least, it is _not_ copyrighted. I got this from an inside source...the guy that hired the lawyer for LT. But since Emin and almost everone else believes this copyright _bluff_, people have become very creative at inventing new ways to spell WT! My favorite would be _Wing Txun_... I think it has a sort of Mayan look, and since I'm an ex-WT man, the X would be perfect!


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## yak sao (Aug 12, 2009)

geezer said:


> Actually this is what you are *supposed* to believe. But, in the USA at least, it is _not_ copyrighted. I got this from an inside source...the guy that hired the lawyer for LT. But since Emin and almost everone else believes this copyright _bluff_, people have become very creative at inventing new ways to spell WT! My favorite would be _Wing Txun_... I think it has a sort of Mayan look, and since I'm an ex-WT man, the X would be perfect!


 


I have noticed that LT spells his all as one word.Is that what is copywrited? Also that J Webb and Ingo Weigel (may be wrong on the last name) continue to spell it as Wing Tsun here in the states. It always bothered me how LT himself said he felt that spelling was a proper romanization of the chinese then somehow is able to copywrite it?????
BTW the Wing txun spelling is a new one for me


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## geezer (Aug 13, 2009)

yak sao said:


> ..It always bothered me how LT himself said he felt that spelling was a proper romanization of the chinese then somehow is able to copywrite it?????


 
I think the one-word version is just to distinguish LT's organization from splinter groups. But you are exactly right about trying to copyright the name. If it is a correct romanization of a long established martial art, then you can't copyright it. The best LT can do is include his own name, since that is protected.



yak sao said:


> BTW the Wing txun spelling is a new one for me


 New? I hope so, since I made it up. It would really bother me if somebody else was already a grandmaster of that! Worse, if they'd already _copyrighted_ it. LOL


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## yak sao (Aug 13, 2009)

You may think you made it up. Check out you tube. There's a guy there named Luigi Rossi, obviously an EWTO offshoot, doing wing tXun.

OK, so what other possible spellings could we use?
Wing Tbun, nah, Wing Tcun.....possible, Wing Tdun...nope.....This could be a great party game.


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## profesormental (Aug 14, 2009)

Greetings.

In the end, the punch you give someone to defend yourself won't leave a trademark! 

Anyway, I was thinking about the new nickname given to me by Mr. Geezer.

I could write King Night Owl, 

or King Knight Owl.

In the end both are cool, and essentially the sam ting.

Juan Mercado-Robles
King Night Owl and/or King Knight Owl


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## Thapir (Aug 14, 2009)

profesormental said:


> Greetings.
> 
> In the end, the punch you give someone to defend yourself won't leave a trademark!
> 
> ...



I understand that you probably get so many questions about this, but I asked this mainly because of the thought that there are *huge* difference between the two Schools (why else should they split up in my opinion). But now that I know the answer, I don't care and will be checking them out, knowing that the difference isn't that big.

Thapir,


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 14, 2009)

yak sao said:


> OK, so what other possible spellings could we use?
> Wing Tbun, nah, Wing Tcun.....possible, Wing Tdun...nope.....This could be a great party game.


 
How about 'Wing Jun' or 'Xin Chun' or 'Xin Jun' or 'Ving Jun'.


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## geezer (Aug 14, 2009)

yak sao said:


> You may think you made it up. Check out you tube. There's a guy there named Luigi Rossi, obviously an EWTO offshoot, doing wing tXun.


 
Man that sucks. I came up with that "Txun" thing back in '07. Now I find out that Luigi is already using it. Well those Italians are known for their sense of style. And it looks like he's another WT "rebel", judging from the logo with the vertical fist in the triangle. Now *that *maybe copyright infringement. It's very similar to a logo with a WT fist in a triangle that I believe Leung Ting did succed in getting copyrighted (like anybody really cares?). 



yak sao said:


> OK, so what other possible spellings could we use?


 
I suppose you could go with _Wing Tshun_ since that's the way it sounded to me when Leung Ting pronounced it. But you better look online first. If _Luigi's_ using Wing Txun, _Mario's_ probably got this one wrapped up too.

I'm going to go with Mexican versions, since we have a huge Latino population down here. How about _Huing Chun_ o, a lo mejor, _Guintzon_. Orale, eso me cae bien, guey. It may not have the initials "WT" but at least nobody will copy me!


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## dungeonworks (Aug 14, 2009)

Good grief!  Another spelling of WVTSUING CHTSXUN???  Holy Canolli!  How is a guy supposed to Google around for schools in his area with all of this??? :xtrmshock:lol:


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## MattB (Aug 16, 2009)

Hey
just a side note in maderian pin yin spelling its yong chun, and  some Wing Tsun guys in Germany would say that WT is different from WC. Something bout it being closer to What Ip Man taught or somthing like that.


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## geezer (Aug 16, 2009)

MattB said:


> Hey
> just a side note in maderian pin yin spelling its yong chun, and  some Wing Tsun guys in Germany would say that WT is different from WC. Something bout it being closer to What Ip Man taught or somthing like that.



In my opinion _WT is indeed different from WC_. WT is Leung Ting"s particular take on the system and has certain distinct characteristics regarding stance, technique and training methods. WC is generic and can refer to any of the other versions, so it varies a lot in approach.

As far as whose WC/VT/WT is closer to what Ip (Yip) Man taught at any given point, or whose is "best", ...well, I'm not touching that. In fact, I don't care. I just like what I'm involved in now. And I have friends in different groups who are also very content.


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## MattB (Aug 16, 2009)

I know right. Thats why I hate WC froums sometimes cause everybody gets caught up in the politics. I have had the luck to travel and see different branches of WC in action.


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## Thapir (Aug 17, 2009)

Greetings,

I got another questions but since this is my topic I better keep it in this thread.

Is there any difference between the different lineages about the membershipcosts? Since the two schools I've taken info on are (in comparison to other MA's) quite expensive. Is this something which has to do with the lineage (Leung Ting one), or in general that Wing Chun is quite expensive?

Thanks,


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## Tensei85 (Aug 17, 2009)

MattB said:


> Hey
> just a side note in maderian pin yin spelling its yong chun, and  some Wing Tsun guys in Germany would say that WT is different from WC. Something bout it being closer to What Ip Man taught or somthing like that.



Personally I think each system of Wing Chun varies a bit, so not one system is the exact same as the other. And sometimes this changes from Sifu to Sifu as well, as they've found different elements that they would concentrate on and others they've eliminated or mutated/evolved however you want to state. And this takes place throughout the systems methods from Tek Faat, Da Faat, Bou Faat, Gerk Faat, Chi Sau Faat etc... 

And then there are some that have added elements form other systems of CMA or elsewise. 

But as long is it doesn't stray from the principles of Wing Chun one can't really say its right or wrong it just is.


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## yak sao (Aug 17, 2009)

Thapir said:


> Greetings,
> 
> I got another questions but since this is my topic I better keep it in this thread.
> 
> ...


 

It's always been my understanding that WT/WC/VT has always been on the expensive side. For generations it was very secretive. In fact Yip Man was one of only 13 students.
As for the LT organization and its derivatives, yes they are pricey. It is also very effective martial arts training taught very systematically. So it becomes a matter of whether or not you want to shell out the money.


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## Ken Morgan (Oct 18, 2009)

Hey, I just noticed this post where you say you train at jodo.

I think that brings the total people training in it here, up to two or three!!

Seitei jo or koryu jo?


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## geezer (Oct 18, 2009)

Latest word on Wingtsun or WT spelling: Apparently some unaffiliated WC folks got into trouble with Leung Ting for using this spelling. The rumor is that their lawyer told them that it was _not_ protected by copyright and they had the legal right to use it, _but_ they would have to go to court and spend some big bucks to defend this right if sued. So unless you are with Leung Ting, I'd avoid using that spelling... it's really not worth the hassle!

As for myself, I see us all as extended family anyway, however you spell it. _What counts is how you do it! _


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## chinaboxer (Oct 18, 2009)

i just copywrited the term "WF" or "Wing Fun"!

i'm j/k, lots of good advice from everyone, here's my advice, and what i do whenever i go to visit a martial arts school. i always make sure to focus on the students that have been there the longest, why? because the students are a reflection of the instructor and will pick up many of his "traits". some instructors are very good at showing and demonstrating, but can he "teach", you will see by the quality of the students that have been there the longest.

most importantly, have Wing Fun!

Jin


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## Poor Uke (Oct 19, 2009)

Thapir said:


> I understand that you probably get so many questions about this, but I asked this mainly because of the thought that there are *huge* difference between the two Schools (why else should they split up in my opinion). But now that I know the answer, I don't care and will be checking them out, knowing that the difference isn't that big.
> 
> Thapir,


 
Hi Thapir The differences are mainly down to who gets the money! There isnt really 'huge' difference between various Ip Man lineages it more of a sales ploy IMO.

I do Judo as well as _ing _un good combo. Did you say you were looking for a weapons based art? If so check out some Fillipino Martial Arts in your area.

Good luck.


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## Thapir (Oct 19, 2009)

Ken Morgan said:


> Hey, I just noticed this post where you say you train at jodo.
> 
> I think that brings the total people training in it here, up to two or three!!
> 
> Seitei jo or koryu jo?



Greetings fellow Jodoka!

I am a follower of the Seitei-jo, even though we get to see some Koryu every now and than to spice up the classes! I actually went to check out both Kendo & Iaido, but found Jodo to be more interesting for me. As I it had the perfect balance, of having the "kendo-fight" with the artistic part of Iaido. Nowadays I wish that I could spar though, but maybe I'll pick up Kendo later on! 

This thread is a bit old by now, and I've checked 2 WT schools already and one Silat school. None of them am I a member of now though. Where one WT-instructor was nice, I wasn't so keen on his PR-talk when it came down to the price. And the 2nd one, was quite frankly not nice at all. Silat was an awesome experience, but somehow I found it a bit too much all at once for me at that point.

So I went to check out Wudang Taichi Chuan (Dan Docherty's), and I found it to give (once again) a perfect balance between the artistic calm part (training the Form), and the "fighting part" as I aswell do self-defence + pushing hands. Pushing hands, which I love so much..since it feels almost like Wing Tsun aswell.. I'm still a bit sad, that there isn't the perfect Wing Tsun/Chun school near me, since the style keeps me spellbounded like no other MA. But here in Belgium, it's hard to find any other school outside the WT-class.


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## Thapir (Oct 19, 2009)

All thanks for the info btw!


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