# If the master dies..



## jujutsu_indonesia (Feb 27, 2006)

Just curious & want to hear the opinions from all you good people..

If a Karate grandmaster dies without leaving a will, who is the most suitable person to succeed his position as the next grandmaster of his Karate organization? Choose one answer and explain your choice..

1. His son or daughter, regardless of ability. Blood are more important than technical skills.

2. The most senior student. Seniority counts!

3. The senior student with the best teaching skills (we need teachers not thugs!)

4. Delegate his duties to a committee consists of senior students and business sponsors.

5. All the senior should settle the matter by fighting no-holds-barred, the one left standing will be the next grandmaster (barbaric, but some would say this is the most fair option).

6. Other (explain your choice)

Thank you very much!


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## Flying Crane (Feb 27, 2006)

Just ask the Ed Parker Kenpo guys.  When Mr. Parker passed away unexpectedly, he had not left a designated heir to the system.  It splintered into a million fragments, each with a new self-promoted 10th degree in charge of their own version.  It creates a mess.

Personally, I don't know if there needs to be a Grandmaster.  People know what they know, maybe it's time to move on and develop the art in their own way.  Respect the fact that there are those who are more knowledgeable and more skilled, learn from those that you can, but why do people feel they need to follow a Grandmaster?


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## Andrew Green (Feb 27, 2006)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> 1. His son or daughter, regardless of ability. Blood are more important than technical skills.



Most likely, same as any other business, when someone dies there assets are passed down through there family.  Although it would depends entirely on how the organization was structured, but if the grandmaster "owns" it, it should go to his family as it is a business.

Doesn't mean anyone has to follow them, or should go off and do there own things.


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## evenflow1121 (Feb 27, 2006)

Initially, I would have said you have a group of the high ranking belts decide on who should be next, the downside is you will probably the have the same end result, the organization will break into fragments regardless.  With respect to GSM Parker, I am sure people that know him can correct me on this, as I never got the chance to know the man, but I am pretty sure that with his passing albeit will or none people would have left the organization anyways.  A will wont help all that much, it may keep it from totally obliterating the organization, but some senior students will always opt to leave and do their own thing when this happens. 

So in light of that I agree with Andrew give the organization to the family as an asset if he or she died intestate and see what happens from there.


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## TimoS (Feb 27, 2006)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> 1. His son or daughter, regardless of ability. Blood are more important than technical skills.



This kind of thing happened in our previous style, although then the father had chosen his son as a successor. This eventually led to the formation of (at least) one new style, the one that I'm currently practising.



> 6. Other (explain your choice)



As I understand it, in our system, should the head of style die (and let's hope he doesn't for a long long time), then the next head of style will be selected by a meeting of the senior-most students. Only time will tell, will everyone then go along with that decision. I can only hope so


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## Grenadier (Feb 27, 2006)

When the founder dies, even if he wills the style to a particular person, there stands a pretty good chance that some of the more senior sensei of the style, will splinter off.  This can happen regardless of whether it is left to his senior-most student, or one of his children.  Regardless of who comes out "on top," there are going to be some hard feelings, and those may last for a very long time.  

The ones that do manage to resist being splintered, usually have one hand-picked person who is considered the best, and that there's a committee consisting of the senior sensei of the style, that has given their unanimous approval.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 27, 2006)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> When the founder dies, even if he wills the style to a particular person, there stands a pretty good chance that some of the more senior sensei of the style, will splinter off.



Of course there are, why would someone suddenly start following someone who was there peer until the death?  If there are 4-5 guys with 30+ years in, chances are few, if any, will agree to follow one of the others.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Feb 28, 2006)

Ah, okay. Thank you all for your opinions. I think a wise Master should have appointed a successor while he still have breath on his body, yes? Like what Prof. Wally Jay did.

Still, it's not the ultimate solution, yes?

Example: The Wado style breaks into three factions because the senior students of the Founder did not want to accept the Founder's son as the next Grandmaster.

So, I guess



> All the senior should settle the matter by fighting no-holds-barred, the one left standing will be the next grandmaster (barbaric, but some would say this is the most fair option).


 
is not all that bad, yes?


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## terryl965 (Feb 28, 2006)

Family member first if they know the system if not it will be divided just like Ed Parker American Kempo everybody has there way of doing it.
What a mess it will be.
Terry


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## searcher (Mar 3, 2006)

I would like to see the group fighting it out scenario.   Could be fun.   I myself would tend to lean towards the group of seniors coming to an agreement, but with differing opinions that could be worse than letting each go their own way.   If I were in that situation I would hope My Wife or Children would take over.  My Wife is currently My highest ranking student.   And most lethal.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Mar 4, 2006)

I heard from Kuntao masters that, if a Kuntao master pass away without naming a successor, usually there will be a free sparring contest between the 1st most senior student with the 2nd most senior student, and the winner should be elected as the next master, while the loser should swear "eternal brotherhood" with the winner. And then they both co-rule the school together. And thus the contest is basically a formality 

Could this rule be applicable to Karate as well?


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 4, 2006)

In today's world of some people wanting more and others just maintaining the past, could not more than one person be titled a Grand Master?

I know some arts I have heard of like in some of the KMA the title is rank based. While in some of the FMA's they have multiple GM to show that more than one can obtain the capability of knowledge and teaching abilities. While there usually is a recognized senior, either by age or training time, or by a friendly match. 

So, if there is one not named by rank and title, or one not named to be the successor and there is no history of it passing to the eldest male child or to the highest ranking student, then there is a problem. There is also an issue if there are two or more second ranked members of the art. 

So, why cannot there be mroe than one and have it split, and have each to show they deserve it. 

Just curious.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Mar 5, 2006)

In pure Japanese arts like Jujutsu, the senior students are given menkyokaiden or license of full proficiency. then sometimes they are persuaded to make their own branch, thus ensuring that they will not challenge the authority of the grandmaster to appoint a successor (usually blood related).

that's why we have several legitimate lines of the same art, for example, the school Takagi-ryu Jujutsu founded by Takagi Oriemon in the 16th century has grown into several legitimate lines of Hontai Yoshin-ryu, Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu, Takagi Yoshin-ryu Jutaijutsu, Hontai Yoshin Takagi-ryu, Takagi-ryu Jujutsu Ishizaki-ha and several more lines..


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## twendkata71 (Jul 15, 2006)

*In Japan or OKinawa. Usually the case would be the oldest son. regardless of his skill.  Sometimes it is the most senior student. Which would make more sense.  GM Robert Trias tried to leave the sokeship to his daughter. But, many of his senior students stepped forward and tried to claim the head of the organization. It eventually splinted apart. I see where in Japan, when Kenzo Mabuni died he left the Sokeship of the Seito Shito ryu to his daughter. That has to be a first in Japan.*
*Kyan on Okinawa left his style to his senior student Shimabuku,when Shimabuku was only 35. Very young,for Okinawa. *
*In my opinion it should be the one that is most qualified. But, in many cases the Founder of the style,or Soke, is the one  that is really holding it together. When he passes away. People want to take over and many times it tears the style/organization apart.*










			
				jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> Just curious & want to hear the opinions from all you good people..
> 
> If a Karate grandmaster dies without leaving a will, who is the most suitable person to succeed his position as the next grandmaster of his Karate organization? Choose one answer and explain your choice..
> 
> ...


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 15, 2006)

> When the founder dies, even if he wills the style to a particular person, there stands a pretty good chance that some of the more senior sensei of the style, will splinter off.


true politics will always come into play or it just may be that some of the seniors can not get along with the new GM so they go their own way



> Family member first if they know the system


Knowing the system is what seems important the family member may b young or have much less knowledge in the system than many of the senior students.   If this is the case do you still make th family member had man/woman just to keep th system in the family name and ignor those who have a better understanding of the system


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## Robert Lee (Jul 15, 2006)

If you look at most styles Where you have a head instructor. Soke, When that person passes even though he may have requested a person to haed the style. There are senior students with rank that will branch off and form there own group/ organization. Even where there are a board of soke di. To give it to a family member. Well does that person have the skill to instruct it and hand it down to students . If not then would a  high level student help instruct the familymember to better be abl to lead the organization perhaps. After 5th dan one can go on and start there own group if they wish in several styles. Thats how new styles over the years came to be. It all boils down to how loyal the senior instructors are to the organization Where then they would have a group leadership that could be agreed  with on how to setup the continued instruction in a branch organization of instruction.  Most often in todays world Its money and prestige that people go after That brings the  problems. Then also others thinking they are more deserving So they seperate.


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## TimoS (Jul 15, 2006)

twendkata71 said:
			
		

> *Kyan on Okinawa left his style to his senior student Shimabuku,when Shimabuku was only 35. *



Which Shimabuku are you talking about? Tatsuo, Zenryo or Eizo? Because from what I've heard is that although Eizo Shimabuku is often said to have been left in charge of Kyan's style, in truth he received most of his karate education from his brother, Tatsuo Shimabuku. When Kyan passed away, his seniormost student was Zenryo Shimabuku. Eizo Shimabuku was only about 20 years old at the time (http://www.okinawankarateclub.com/shorinryu/Shimabukuro_interview.htm tells us that he was born in 1925. Kyan died in 1945). Zenryo Shimabukuro was born apparently in 1908


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## twendkata71 (Jul 15, 2006)

I was talking about Shimabuku Eizo.   Founded a different style. Did not claim to be the inheriter of Kyan's style. Tatsuo was Eizo's older brother so that makes since. But,there is documentation of Shimabuku Eizo's inheriting Kyan's style and the Karate that he teaches in not much like the Isshin ryu style of his brother. No vertical punches, twisting blocks with the forarm bone instead of the side of the arm. I can't remember weither he was promoted to 10th dan by Kyan or Toyama Kanken. It was at the age of 35 though.




			
				TimoS said:
			
		

> Which Shimabuku are you talking about? Tatsuo, Zenryo or Eizo? Because from what I've heard is that although Eizo Shimabuku is often said to have been left in charge of Kyan's style, in truth he received most of his karate education from his brother, Tatsuo Shimabuku. When Kyan passed away, his seniormost student was Zenryo Shimabuku. Eizo Shimabuku was only about 20 years old at the time (http://www.okinawankarateclub.com/shorinryu/Shimabukuro_interview.htm tells us that he was born in 1925. Kyan died in 1945). Zenryo Shimabukuro was born apparently in 1908


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## karateka (Jul 18, 2006)

The senior student with the best teaching skills in my opinion. this is because its not right for the family to inherit what would be alot better in the hands of someone who could ensure the upkeep of the association, and your fighting skills do not reflect your wisdom so that rules out the students free for all. 


what the master would have wanted is whats best for the association, so the most senior student with the greatest wisdom in my oppinion.


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## pstarr (Jul 19, 2006)

Our particular kung-fu association has already made preparations for this event and the system will be managed by a committee whose members have already been appointed...


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## chinto (May 27, 2007)

jujutsu_indonesia said:


> Just curious & want to hear the opinions from all you good people..
> 
> If a Karate grandmaster dies without leaving a will, who is the most suitable person to succeed his position as the next grandmaster of his Karate organization? Choose one answer and explain your choice..
> 
> ...


 

At least some of the time it is the senior student. this happend when hanshi judan Kyan died he left that position to his senior student Eizo Shimubukoro. he was young by the standerds of the okinawan tradition for that rank and positon, but he was and is the hanshi of shobayashi shorin ryu.   
However, in some instances the senior students end up splitting up and like in the case of hanshi soken they split with fusi kisei becomeing the head of kenshan kan and one of the other senior students becomeing the head of seito. ( as i remember from long ago fusi kesei was the senior student to hanshi hohan soken.) {i studeid seito as a kid a little, and later as a teen under the same sensei kenshankan as he stayed with fusi kesei and had studied under both on okinawa in the airforce.}


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## Victor Smith (May 28, 2007)

Shimabuku Ezio was never a senior student of Kyan Chotoku. He was a very young man when Kyan died after the war.  There is even some question because of the age differences that he had even trained with Kyan Sensei to any extent.

Some Japanese had called a meeting of all Okinawan karate-ka after the war to organize Okinawa by Japanese standards. Shimabuku Ezio showed up for the meeting but everyone else turned their backs.

The Japanese guy, losing much face, had to do something so he promoted Shimabuku Ezio to 10th dan.  

Shimabuku realized he was in hot water with the rest of the island. He trained with one of Kyan's senior students for a while, wearing a white belt, to show his desire to really link to the past.

But he accepted his rank.

I have no opinion either way whether that is a good or bad thing. 

Shimabuku Ezio is a qualified instructor in his own right. At that time rank was just starting to come into is own on Okinawa. During the American occupation, when it became obvious that Okinawa was going to return to Japanese control in 1972, the Okinawans started following Japanese standards, adopting dogi, rank, creating organizations.

Different groups used different approaches. 

Miyagi, Goju's founder, never awarded anyone black belts. After his death all Goju Karate-ka took up the practice.

What rank was Kyan? Think about that a minute. His generation didn't use rank, except those who moved to Japan where it was borrowed from the Judo-ka.

And none of the systems had successor issues because they weren't systems then, just individual instructors. Kyan's students founded a number of systems, Matsubashi Ryu, Isshinryu, Kobayshi Ryu, Shorinji Ryu, Seibukan and so forth.

All of the karate succession issues are a relatively modern one.

In the end there is just the dojo, and the instructor ought to have the skills to keep the rest training.


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## TimoS (May 28, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> He trained with one of Kyan's senior students for a while, wearing a white belt, to show his desire to really link to the past.



I've heard that the bulk his training was from his brother Tatsuo Shimabukuro. Do you know if this was the case?

As for who was Kyan's most senior student, my understanding is that it was another Shimabukuro, namely Zenryo


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## Victor Smith (May 28, 2007)

Shimabuku Ezio certainly trained with his brother, but there was a lot of rivarly between them later. Which was a shame, but a reality in families too.

With Shimabuku Tatsuo's passing and time I understand the old feelings have passed.

As for Kyan Sensei's senior student, I have seen various claims but have no way to independently verify any of them. Most books in time are found to have errors (often repeated from earlier texts) till verification of a point becomes impossible.

On the other hand, Kyan Sensei certainly inspired his students with his teachings and they kept the line alive. There is no finer tribute any instructor can receive than his knowledge passes along in future generations.

As we cannot go back to the past, deep questions about who/what/where/why/how will remain unaswered.

Isn't it more important to focus on what we have on hand today?


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