# Will Wonders never cease?



## Xue Sheng (Apr 17, 2007)

It appears that an old limb cut off of the Yang family tree has grown back...AMAZING!!!  

And here they were saying it didn't exist...  must have been a miracle

Yang Shouhou's line was not there and look now it is. 

The old family tree
http://web.archive.org/web/20010702114650/www.yangfamilytaichi.com/info/images/familytree.jpg

The New Family Tree
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/yang/tree/images/familytree.jpg

Surprisingly enough Yang Shouhou's line has reappeared all the way up to a birth in 1989, even though it was allegedly it went no further than his son.


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## bigfootsquatch (Apr 17, 2007)

Yang Style Tai Chi has always left a bitter taste in my mouth, even though it is what I practice. No one in the family seems to do the form the same. Take old videos of Fu Zhong Wen(supposedly identical to Yang Cheng Fu) and then watch the Yang Zhenduo and Jun, even they are somewhat different! Of course you can go on to older videos such as 



 and even he does it differently! The Yangs seem to really have trouble with keeping their form's straight; now they can't even keep their family geneology straight!

If my Yang style wasn't mostly self taught, and there were another decent Tai Chi instructor around, I would definitely change styles.


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## oxy (Apr 17, 2007)

> No one in the family seems to do the form the same. Take old videos of Fu Zhong Wen(supposedly identical to Yang Cheng Fu) and then watch the Yang Zhenduo and Jun, even they are somewhat different! Of course you can go on to older videos such as
> 
> 
> 
> and even he does it differently! The Yangs seem to really have trouble with keeping their form's straight; now they can't even keep their family geneology straight!



As I understand it (extrapolated from a few comments on other Taiji threads), the forms need not seem like they were mass produced (ie, complete resemblance to everyone). The Yang's 10 essences are the guiding factors of the style rather than anal retentativeness on being completely "blue-print" resemblant. It's not like anyone can be blue-print resemblant when they're defending themselves from harm.

Learning and teaching, on the other hand, is better if you have a standard version to work from. But once you move to a high enough level, it's better if you do some exploration with your own form. If people never branched out and preferred to keep everything the same as before then we wouldn't have Taiji in the first place.

I don't see why the change in geneaology says anything. It's better than a geneaology that doesn't change in light of the facts. Would you prefer that the Yang family continued to ignore the existence of that branch knowing that it does exist?


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## Flying Crane (Apr 17, 2007)

Lazarus rises from the dead.


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## East Winds (Apr 18, 2007)

oxy,

Well done!!! I agree with you 100%. You'r right on the money.


Very best wishes


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## East Winds (Apr 18, 2007)

bigfootsquatch,

Forms may LOOK different due to age, physique, speed and ability, as in Yang Shou Zhong, Fu Zhong Wen, Yang Zhen Ji, Yang Zhen Duo. In fact they are indeed all doing the same form. They are all showing the essences left to us by Yang Cheng fu and THAT is the real secret of Yang style taijiquan. If ALL the essences are in EVERY posture than the outward manifestation of the form matters little. If the essences are in place, the form will be effective as a martial art and a health giving exercise and more to the point, will be correct.

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 18, 2007)

oxy said:


> I don't see why the change in geneaology says anything. It's better than a geneaology that doesn't change in light of the facts. Would you prefer that the Yang family continued to ignore the existence of that branch knowing that it does exist?


 
What it says is that a branch of the family that they claimed was DEAD.... was not. And it makes me wonder why they did any of this at all. Either say right from the start he and his lineage is there or continue the lie. Why the change? Also why the previous claims that the style of Shouhou no longer exists? And now POOF Shouhuo and his line reappear.

And to add to this, NONE of the current Yang family people that most in Taiji know have absolutely NO idea how to do the form of Shouhou. But I for one would like to find someone form the newly added branch to see what it is suppose to look like. This would end a whole lot of "I do the style of Luchan" garbage. Or my teacher was a student of Shouhou or Banhou. We would know what it is suppose to look like.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 18, 2007)

bigfootsquatch said:


> Yang Style Tai Chi has always left a bitter taste in my mouth, even though it is what I practice. No one in the family seems to do the form the same. Take old videos of Fu Zhong Wen(supposedly identical to Yang Cheng Fu) and then watch the Yang Zhenduo and Jun, even they are somewhat different! Of course you can go on to older videos such as
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Yang style from teacher to teacher will change a bit, however if it changes to much it becomes another style that is why you got Yang from Chen. 

But then again there is an awful lot of sloppy Yang style out there. But what you see from Fu or Yang or Tung will vary and it is simply up to the practitioner to decide which one they wish to follow. My own personal opinion is that I am incredibly happy with what I get form the Tung line and I do not think I would be happy studying with the Yang family at all. But that is just my opinion. 

But now it is likely we may have 2 different Traditional Yang styles to deal with and if this is the case, who knows, I may like what comes from the Shouhou line better than Tung.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 18, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> Lazarus rises from the dead.


 
Incredible...isn't it


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## oxy (Apr 18, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> What it says is that a branch of the family that they claimed was DEAD.... was not. And it makes me wonder why they did any of this at all. Either say right from the start he and his lineage is there or continue the lie. Why the change? Also why the previous claims that the style of Shouhou no longer exists? And now POOF Shouhuo and his line reappear.



I absolutely agree with all of your points.

I was merely pointing out that the restoration of Shouhou's line does not say anything about Yang Taiji in general. I was specifically responding to this comment by bigfootsquatch and his general dissatisfaction of Yang Taiji:



> The Yangs seem to really have trouble with keeping their form's straight; now they can't even keep their family geneology straight!



As to why the line would suddenly reappear...

I think I brought up Hanlon's Razor in another thread: never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. To generalise this, it is generally more closer to the truth that there was no intention to prevent the lineage from being included.

With all these history things, especially the turmoil going on the middle of last century in China, it's simply not possible to document everything. Maybe the Yang's did not believe they previously had enough evidence, but now they do. It's not like martial arts geneaology is somehow immune from being imperfect unlike normal geneaologies. The LHBF community itself is still on the process of uncovering legitimate lines. My teacher's teacher, even though he was a student of Chan Yik Yan for 8 years before his death, is not really known to the rest of the LHBF community even though he and his students established himself well in Hong Kong.

I don't know about the politics of the Shouhou line, but it is generally safe practice to not include something until there is sufficient evidence. Prefer to add to correct mistakes rather than subtract.



> And to add to this, NONE of the current Yang family people that most in Taiji know have absolutely NO idea how to do the form of Shouhou. But I for one would like to find someone form the newly added branch to see what it is suppose to look like. This would end a whole lot of "I do the style of Luchan" garbage. Or my teacher was a student of Shouhou or Banhou. We would know what it is suppose to look like.



That would be for the best.


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## East Winds (Apr 18, 2007)

Xue Sheng,

It would be interesting to know whether any of the sons of  Yang  Zhen Sheng in fact inherited their grandfathers form (Shou Hou) and whether in fact they taught/teach it. If they do they certainly don't advertise it!!! And as you know, female members of the Traditional Chinese family are not credited with inheriting the family line. These could be the simple reasons for not including the family previously in what is after all a Taji lineage chart.

Very best wishes


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## bigfootsquatch (Apr 18, 2007)

Hey everyone, 
I agree that the form should be adapted when the stylist reaches a higher level, but like Xue said, there are a WHOLE lot of sloppy practioners in Yang Style. Yes there are sloppy practioners in all Tai Chi, but Yang seems excessively so. Examples of proper form adaptation would be along the lines of the Tung family, whose form still resembles the traditional form to some extent. Form adaptation that completely changes moves for the sake of changing it does not make any sense. Watch Erle Montaigue's opening Yang(Cheng Fu) form and you have the Chen Pan Ling(and Wu style I think) form. Take Terry Dunns(instructor who in the states) opening form and you have Cheng Man Ching's form! 

If the form is changed so much that it does not even resemble the original form, then it is time for a name change. Yang Tai Chi IS the traditional 108 family form handed by Yang Cheng Fu, and now the 49 shortened form. Sorry guys, Michuan is not a hidden family tradition either as said in another post. Michuan is what Yang Lu Chan taught to a bunch of foreign invaders that most Chinese hated. Now, maybe the new family line will add another form, but until then the above forms are the only Yang forms. I can handle anyone calling their forms Yang-derived/influenced/modified etc, but to call it Yang STYLE and it does not resemble Yang style, nor does the Yang family acknowledge it as their form, then it sounds like a cash in to me.  

 If one could simply follow the principles of Yang Cheng Fu and be doing Yang Tai Chi, why wouldn't someone take the Sun or Wu styles for instance, and adapt them to his principles. Would that then qualify as Yang Tai Chi??  

(Sorry if my message sounds sketchy, I had to get up a few times, so it may not flow good, lol)


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## East Winds (Apr 18, 2007)

bigfootsquatch,

I think you are right. And yes, there is a huge amount of sloppy "Yang" style taijiquan out there. This mostly came about through Instructors who claimed that Yang Cheng-fu had "removed all the Fa Jin" from Lu Chang's form and therefore began teaching a form that contained no Fa Jin. Some Instructors even claimed to do Lu Chan's form and put back the so called "overt Fa Jin" that they thought Lu Chan had in his form. In fact Lu Chan himself began to develop and "hide" the Fa Jin in his form and of course the difference was that where Chen does Silk Reeling (Chan Si Gong) in their form to produce obvious Fa Jin movements, Lu Chan developed Silk Pulling (Chou Si Gong) where the emphasis was on the Yin or gathering of energy to produce Fa Jin.  This is the element that is still taught in Traditonal Yang Family Taijiquan today. This is also why Tung style succeeds and Cheng Man Ching style fails.

Very best wishes


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## oxy (Apr 18, 2007)

East Winds said:


> This is also why Tung style succeeds and Cheng Man Ching style fails.



At what?


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## East Winds (Apr 18, 2007)

oxy,

Sorry, that was badly phrased. What I meant was that the Tung form could be considered Yang style, whilst Cheng Manching's form could not. The Tung Ying Chieh form contains Cheng Fu's essences - Cheng Manching form only pays lip service to them. (I'll now sit back and await the onslaught from CMC pratitioners!!!!):shrug:  But before they do, would they please tell me in which part of their form they practise Chou Si Gong (or Chou Si Jin if you prefer).

Very best wishes


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## dmax999 (Apr 18, 2007)

East Winds said:


> Cheng Manching form only pays lip service to them. (I'll now sit back and await the onslaught from CMC pratitioners!!!!):shrug: But before they do, would they please tell me in which part of their form they practise Chou Si Gong (or Chou Si Jin if you prefer).


 
First I will have to assume that William CC Chen's style is close enough to CMC to use that for discussion (I have never actually done CMC, but do practice William CC Chen's style). If you disagree with that assumption, ignore the rest of this post.

I am a bit confused by your statement. What part does not follow the essences set down by Cheng-Fu? I could very well make the argument that for beginners the CMC style would be easier to follow the essences then traditional Yang family style. I actually believe that is the reason CMC made most of the changes he did make. You ever watch a strong Kung-Fu guy try to do Yang Tai Chi? You teach Tai Chi, if you were willing to throw out tradition and change the form to make it easier for others to learn proper technique quicker what changes would you come up with, and would they be much different then CMC style?

You also imply that there is no issuance of energy in CMC style, or at least that is what I am reading. I completely disagree, it is expressed in the same way that it is in the traditional Yang family form. It looks different, and probably looks absent to most, but under a good teacher it becomes blatently obvious and teaches you a new way of thinking about strikes (at least it did for me). I use the strikes I learned from William CC Chen whenever I practice on a heavy bag and I believe I can hit it much harder now then before I learned how to strike his way, not to mention faster and I don't get tired nearly as fast.

I understand people wanting to say CMC is not Yang Family style, and I don't really have any problem with people making that statement. For one, it is done differently enough it probably warrents it, but mostly the Yang Family says it is not their style and I believe they should have the right to say so.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 19, 2007)

OK this is going off post but I feel I should say that I do not feel that Cheng Manching style is Yang style and the Yang family also says that, this is one of the few things the Yang family and I actually agree on (not that it matter to them). 

But I do feel CMC style is a very good style and if you train it you get very much involved with the internal aspects of Taiji. 

I do not know how much of CMC from William CC Chen is like the original form from Cheng Manching, but I am VERY impressed with William CC Chen. I am also VERY impressed with the writings of Cheng Manching. As a matter of fact I Highly recommend one of his books (Cheng Tzus 13 Treatises) to all those that train Taiji, it is very insightful. 

But none of this is related to the miraculous return of Shou Hou and if family to the Yang family tree


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## oxy (Apr 19, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> I am also VERY impressed with the writings of Cheng Manching. As a matter of fact I Highly recommend one of his books (Cheng Tzu&#8217;s 13 Treatises) to all those that train Taiji, it is very insightful.



I haven't read much of his writings. But my LHBF teacher was very influenced by Cheng Manching's writings and holds them in high regard. They are apparently also quite compatible with LHBF, but that's another thread.


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## East Winds (Apr 19, 2007)

Dmax999

   Thanks for the very thoughtful and considered post. As you know, Im not exactly a fan of CMC form but I have always conceded that it is an excellent fighting form especially if taught by knowledgeable teachers like William CC Chen. As you also know I had the chance to work with him for a week on a visit he made to Scotland, so I had an opportunity to push with him as well as watch his form. (I also had the opportunity of working with Katy Cheng (CMCs daughter) when she visited Scotland and it was her in fact who gave me a copy of the essences as used by CMC practitioners). And yes, I have to agree with your distinction between William CC Chen and some other CMC practitioners I have met here in Scotland and elsewhere.

   I hope you will agree that if you look at CMC doing Single Whip and Cheng-fu doing Single Whip, there is a marked difference in postural stance. I think CMC violates the first and possibly the second essences and of course we teach in Traditional Yang, that the essences are cumulative. i.e you cannot be doing essences 2 (Sinking shoulders and elbows) if essence 1 (High Spirit) is missing and so on. There are similar differences in many other postures like Brush and Push. I think CMC misunderstood the repetitions in Cheng fus form. For instance CMC says* The complete Tai Chi Chuan form consisted of more than one hundred and twenty movements. Among these there were many repetitions, executed over and over endlessly. This was a great waste of mental energy without any benefit to either theory or practise. *(Cheng Man-Chings Advanced Tai Chi Form Instructions p.18). I suggest that this would be like putting on a great play or opera and missing out one or two acts. You might get the flavour of what was happening, but you would lose the subtleties of the whole plot.

   I agree about the striking or the issuing of energy, but again I think William CC Chen comes at that from a different perspective. The week I spent with him he was teaching his 3 nails concept and whilst it was certainly impressive, I felt that it came from an external pugilistic or boxing form, rather than from an internal arts form.  As I said in my previous post, it was Lu Chan who first started to hide the Fa Jin by using Chou Si Gong principles, incorporating the 10 essences ( or in his case the 13 postures) and doing the repititions and I suggest that Cheng Fu far from removing Fa Jin, merely completed the process of hiding it. I could feel the difference in emphasis when William CC Chen pushed me and when my own Master pushed me, which I put down to the different ways of issuing energy (Jin).

   Anyway, thank you for your valuable input.

   Very best wishes


P.S. My "Rogues Gallery" contains a photo of me and Willaim CC Chen. One of my prized possession.


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## East Winds (Apr 19, 2007)

Xue Sheng,

Sorry, you a correct. we have wandered way off post.

Apologies

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 19, 2007)

One more thing off post. 

I have read a lot of comparisons of CMC and Yang that are both good and bad, but my interest has been peaked so here is what I'm going to do. 

As soon as I finish the reread of CZL's book I am going to sit down with Yang styles treatises and essences and CMC book the 13 treatises and compare them on that basis and that basis only, not form or posture and after I am done I will post what I think about the whole thing. That is if people are interested. 

Now please back to Shou hou if there is anymore to say about it beyond the best comment and comparison I have heard so far from Flying Crane



Flying Crane said:


> Lazarus rises from the dead.


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## marlon (Apr 19, 2007)

:shrug: But before they do, would they please tell me in which part of their form they practise Chou Si Gong (or Chou Si Jin if you prefer).

Very best wishes[/quote]


Eastwinds,
 as i am learning the 108 form from a taiji student and through readings could you explain to me  (or anyone) where and how is thios silk pulling practiced.  I study the 10 essences often and i love the writings of cmc (which i find closer in spirit to chen style than what is being said by the yang family these days).  Cultivation of internal power is foremost in his writings and i imagine in his teachings.  But this is the first i have heard of silk pulling...anywhere

respectfully,
marlon


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## bigfootsquatch (Apr 19, 2007)

I'm still waiting on a reply from some emails I sent to various officers listed on the Yang family site. I did get this from the adminstrator of the discussion board under "Questions for Yang Family."

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]*JerryKarin*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Administrator [/FONT]   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 [FONT=Verdana, Arial]posted 04-19-2007 12:04 PM     

 

 

 [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]I believe that at the time the family tree was originally published on the site, Yang Zhenduo's branch of the family had lost contact with Yang Shaohou's descendants. Then a fellow popped up in Tai Chi magazine claiming to be a descendant of Yang Shaohou, so Yang Zhenduo did some research to determine if the claim was true and as a result got back in touch with the YSH branch.[/FONT]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe this will lead to greater things, such as the shou hou branch coming out and wanting to make their version public. Maybe it is just so no one can claim kinship, only time will tell.


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## East Winds (Apr 19, 2007)

marlon,

This is not the correct thread to discuss this particular aspect. I will PM you.

Very best wishes


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## oxy (Apr 19, 2007)

bigfootsquatch said:


> I'm still waiting on a reply from some emails I sent to various officers listed on the Yang family site. I did get this from the adminstrator of the discussion board under "Questions for Yang Family."
> 
> [FONT=Verdana, Arial]*JerryKarin*[/FONT]
> [FONT=Verdana, Arial]Administrator [/FONT]
> ...



Good stuff.

Hanlon's Razor and all that.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 20, 2007)

bigfootsquatch said:


> I'm still waiting on a reply from some emails I sent to various officers listed on the Yang family site. I did get this from the adminstrator of the discussion board under "Questions for Yang Family."
> 
> [FONT=Verdana, Arial]*JerryKarin*[/FONT]
> [FONT=Verdana, Arial]Administrator [/FONT]
> ...


 

Actually this is believable, in China during the Cultural Revolution it could have easily happened.

Thank you and please keep me posted.


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## Xue Sheng (May 2, 2007)

bigfootsquatch said:


> I'm still waiting on a reply from some emails I sent to various officers listed on the Yang family site. I did get this from the adminstrator of the discussion board under "Questions for Yang Family."
> 
> [FONT=Verdana, Arial]*JerryKarin*[/FONT]
> [FONT=Verdana, Arial]Administrator [/FONT]
> ...


 
OK Not so believable anymore.

A recent interesting conversation leads me to another question

If what was said on the Yang family site is true then how come my Sifu knew Shou Hou had family there in the 50s and he still knows theyre there today?


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## bigfootsquatch (May 16, 2007)

An email I received about the new lineage: Just so you will know, since you generously offered to help with this.  I havegiven the basic information to several very knowledgeable people in China.  TwoPhD level people (& their staff) are professional martial arts researchers. Another is an extremely knowledgeable amateur expert on many aspects of thehistory and the current scene in martial arts in China.  The general agreement is the claim is likely fraudulent.  Some believe it may bean attempt to add weight to the current family's claim re Chengfu's receivedtransmission (he received an incomplete transmission having ran away from hometo escape the severity of the training, including beatings from his father),until after the death of his father.  It is notable nothing has been mentionedon the chatlist or anywhere else, except on the mainland, about Zhenji's recentdeath.  In fact, he was the 'gatekeeper' of the family's art after the death ofZhenming.The two professional history researchers at the U advised that they checked allmagazines they had and could not find anything by anyone claiming to beShaohou's descendant.  Of course, it's still possible it's out there somewhere -the truth is there has been a recent explosion in m.a. mags in China.  But,little by little,it begins to appear like a mysterious, unfounded but somehow aconvenient claim.  The webmaster was specific about Tai Chi magazine.  I askedSmalheiser, the owner & publisher, and he has not done any such article. Nothing has been found in a Chinese publication on this.  People very familiarwith current topics in m.a. in China have not heard of it.  It begins to lookquite suspicious. Week after next there is a gathering of the Yang family fifth generation peopleincluding my fourth generation master.  Maybe something will come out of that.Thanks again & best of luck.This is all.


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## Xue Sheng (May 17, 2007)

bigfootsquatch said:


> An email I received about the new lineage: Just so you will know, since you generously offered to help with this. I havegiven the basic information to several very knowledgeable people in China. TwoPhD level people (& their staff) are professional martial arts researchers. Another is an extremely knowledgeable amateur expert on many aspects of thehistory and the current scene in martial arts in China. The general agreement is the claim is likely fraudulent. Some believe it may bean attempt to add weight to the current family's claim re Chengfu's receivedtransmission (he received an incomplete transmission having ran away from hometo escape the severity of the training, including beatings from his father),until after the death of his father. It is notable nothing has been mentionedon the chatlist or anywhere else, except on the mainland, about Zhenji's recentdeath. In fact, he was the 'gatekeeper' of the family's art after the death ofZhenming.The two professional history researchers at the U advised that they checked allmagazines they had and could not find anything by anyone claiming to beShaohou's descendant. Of course, it's still possible it's out there somewhere -the truth is there has been a recent explosion in m.a. mags in China. But,little by little,it begins to appear like a mysterious, unfounded but somehow aconvenient claim. The webmaster was specific about Tai Chi magazine. I askedSmalheiser, the owner & publisher, and he has not done any such article. Nothing has been found in a Chinese publication on this. People very familiarwith current topics in m.a. in China have not heard of it. It begins to lookquite suspicious. Week after next there is a gathering of the Yang family fifth generation peopleincluding my fourth generation master. Maybe something will come out of that.Thanks again & best of luck.This is all.


 
And yet my sifu knew of the existance of Shouhou family in Hong Kong in the 50s. My sifu is also a doctor and very well trained in Yang Taiji by Tung Ying Chieh (student of Chengfu) in Hong Kong where he grew up. He also did say that Chengfu did not really take taiji seriously until after his father's death. Chengfu was trained, he just would not practice.


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## Nobody (May 17, 2007)

I have had that question for some time what really happened right before the cultural revolution happened in china cause all of the sudden during this area of time there seems to be a time when all these books information an thing was being destroyed so it leaves out what happened to certain people an why.  I have always thought the cultural revolution was meaning there culture had gotten so heavy with controls that this caused the lose of information an poor book keeping at this time.  This from a country that has records of aqueducts that are more advanced than anything the world would see for 500 year about.

The thing that can be found out i would think cause they have the actual records i assume of the travel of people in China when you travel from town to town even in the days preceding the cultural revolution they did this you first go to your local magistrate.

I don't get why this continues to happen mainly in martial arts do to the fact that in china they keep still to this day a list of people that are teaching martial arts an family list of people involved in something similar to this.  

What i mean Cultural Revolution in China it seems there was less blood shed than would have been in America that still gets me when there was so much document destroying going on.  I understand that the weight of all the land control was what was fought over still don't get why they would lose all these thing related to family an inheritance!?  

This is what i have had the hardest time understanding cause they have a written knowledge of Hsing Yi an Tiger  systems but all the other system end up losing there family list an heritage at the same time as the cultural revolution. Why?

This thing is common to all system oddly but Hsing Yi an Tiger system cause there is so much info left on these to system again Why?

I know this seem like i went off topic but i think it deals directly with what was happening at the time in Taiji.  1850 to the 1900.


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## Xue Sheng (May 17, 2007)

Nobody said:


> I have had that question for some time what really happened right before the cultural revolution happened in china cause all of the sudden during this area of time there seems to be a time when all these books information an thing was being destroyed so it leaves out what happened to certain people an why. I have always thought the cultural revolution was meaning there culture had gotten so heavy with controls that this caused the lose of information an poor book keeping at this time. This from a country that has records of aqueducts that are more advanced than anything the world would see for 500 year about.
> 
> The thing that can be found out i would think cause they have the actual records i assume of the travel of people in China when you travel from town to town even in the days preceding the cultural revolution they did this you first go to your local magistrate.
> 
> ...


 
Simplest answer, they were killing martial arts masters and just about anyone else linked to the older ways in China. So people stopped keeping records that would get them killed. But the Cultural revolution started in 1966 Shouhous branch of Yang was originally ended in 1939, but then you had a lot of other issues going on in China at that time as well. 

See here 
http://encarta.msn.com/sidebar_461501118/1939_China.html


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## Nobody (May 17, 2007)

Yea i should have just went to encyclopedia your right.

But there has always seemed a lose of records around the 1900 not during the 1950 this has been what gets me on why they seem to just stat say always around such time as 1850 to about 1900 in most thing from China.

I agree on the Time frame you are saying but it is what i see that they were building for more than a hundred years towards that.  You know like the culture got top heavy with records an land controls so lets go Communist makes perfect sense.  Not a joke does make perfect sense cause to many people had land rights that the governement needed to maintain the society.  my OP


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## Xue Sheng (May 17, 2007)

Nobody said:


> Yea i should have just went to encyclopedia your right.
> 
> But there has always seemed a lose of records around the 1900 not during the 1950 this has been what gets me on why they seem to just stat say always around such time as 1850 to about 1900 in most thing from China.
> 
> I agree on the Time frame you are saying but it is what i see that they were building for more than a hundred years towards that. You know like the culture got top heavy with records an land controls so lets go Communist makes perfect sense. Not a joke does make perfect sense cause to many people had land rights that the governement needed to maintain the society. my OP


 

The Qing Dynasty Ended in 1911
The last Emperor of the Qing Dynasty was put on the thrown in 1908 at about 1 year old

China was in upheaval during the Empress Dowager Cixi who controlled China from 1861 to her death in 1908
There were a lot of foreign powers attempting to divide China up at this time which brought on the Boxer rebellion in 1900

The republic started in 1911 and ended in 1949 

Republic of China (in Taiwan) 1949 - They took a lot of stuff with them

The Communists started in 1949

To Chinese it is the Mandate of Heaven, all dynasties start out with the blessing of heaven and for a while all is well but as time goes on these dynasties become corrupt and are no longer in the favor of heaven and the next guy that has the blessing of heaven takes over. However at the end of Dynasties it is generally pretty much a lot of fighting and disarray so the records are not kept as well during these times.


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## Nobody (May 17, 2007)

These are the thing that really i first remember getting from China there record keeping.  other thing money-paper800's , 1200 cross bow, 400 they had kilns that worked with double baffle. Typeset in 1000's. the list is epic just seems sad that during the time that they could have had the greatest possible effect on the world they would falter so. 

This all seems to relate often to when martial arts from China often say they had lost contact with the people that had once been involved with there system.

Yea right after you suggested i went out an looked in the encyclopedia.


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## Xue Sheng (May 17, 2007)

Nobody said:


> These are the thing that really i first remember getting from China there record keeping. other thing money-paper800's , 1200 cross bow, 400 they had kilns that worked with double baffle. Typeset in 1000's. the list is epic just seems sad that during the time that they could have had the greatest possible effect on the world they would falter so.
> 
> This all seems to relate often to when martial arts from China often say they had lost contact with the people that had once been involved with there system.
> 
> Yea right after you suggested i went out an looked in the encyclopedia.


 
Part of the problem with the downfall of in the late 1800s was Empress Dowager Cixi. She did not want to change anything militarily and lived in a bit of a fantasy world inside the walls of the Forbidden City. She was also a rather nasty person the killed her way to the top. 

While the rest of the world was modernizing their military she was watching grand plays inside the Forbidden City believing in the China that once was and its power it once had.


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## Steel Tiger (May 17, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Part of the problem with the downfall of in the late 1800s was Empress Dowager Cixi. She did not want to change anything militarily and lived in a bit of a fantasy world inside the walls of the Forbidden City. She was also a rather nasty person the killed her way to the top.
> 
> While the rest of the world was modernizing their military she was watching grand plays inside the Forbidden City believing in the China that once was and its power it once had.


 
She did build a beautiful stone ship with the money raised to develop a modern navy.  What was left was used to build a single small steam gunboat, in Beijing.  I don't think it ever saw the sea, or any water for that matter.

The Cultural Revolution was particularly bad for my own school's lineage because we can only trace things back to the early '70s.  So I can't imagine the difficulties for an art that has spanned numerous dynastic changes like taiji.  Of course, modern taiji has really only had to deal with three plus the Cultural Revolution, but that more than enough to muddy already pretty murky waters.  That the Yang family has such comprehensive records is astounding and perhaps a little suspicious.  Maybe they have always had friends in high places.


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## Xue Sheng (May 17, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> She did build a beautiful stone ship with the money raised to develop a modern navy. What was left was used to build a single small steam gunboat, in Beijing. I don't think it ever saw the sea, or any water for that matter.


 
Yes and I mus say it is a rather impressive stone ship. It sits there at the Summer palace. I remeber thinking when I saw it how impressive it was and how it must have beena great place for parties and yet not so good against invaders. 



Steel Tiger said:


> The Cultural Revolution was particularly bad for my own school's lineage because we can only trace things back to the early '70s. So I can't imagine the difficulties for an art that has spanned numerous dynastic changes like taiji. Of course, modern taiji has really only had to deal with three plus the Cultural Revolution, but that more than enough to muddy already pretty murky waters. That the Yang family has such comprehensive records is astounding and perhaps a little suspicious. Maybe they have always had friends in high places.


 
Yes, and I am still working on that, I found a reference to snake bagua and then promptly lost it and I have not been able to find it since.

I too have my doubts about the Yang family motives in this, but as my sifu said. "There is no way you can ever prove anything... they control the lineage rather well."

What amazes me as that just about all the other Taiji families know where their lineage went and is. Even the Chen family knows of a branch in Shandong that they no longer teach.


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## Steel Tiger (May 17, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yes and I mus say it is a rather impressive stone ship. It sits there at the Summer palace. I remeber thinking when I saw it how impressive it was and how it must have beena great place for parties and yet not so good against invaders.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
My recent research has suggested a definite Emei connection.  We do have a Liu style linear form to go with circle-walking.  There is an Emei snake school which includes qinna, as do we.  There might even be a connection to Bai Mei through the Golden Bell qigong (bit iffy though).

It is strange that the Yang family seems to know more about its past than about the current living branches.  This is especially cogent as they make such stringent claims on maintaining control of the development of the style.


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## Xue Sheng (May 17, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> My recent research has suggested a definite Emei connection. We do have a Liu style linear form to go with circle-walking. There is an Emei snake school which includes qinna, as do we. There might even be a connection to Bai Mei through the Golden Bell qigong (bit iffy though).


 
That gave me an idea



Steel Tiger said:


> It is strange that the Yang family seems to know more about its past than about the current living branches. This is especially cogent as they make such stringent claims on maintaining control of the development of the style.


 
There is a place that lineages of the Yang family can be checked but it will take some research and some foot work and an ability to read traditional Chinese and I am working on that... but it is going painfully slow.

Unless of course the Yangs have taken up hammers and chisels it should be able to be checked


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