# Are ITF and WTF the only notable styles?



## Kenlee25 (Mar 28, 2012)

Just wondering. I see a lot of different acronyms thrown about when it comes to Taekwondo, including ATA, ITF, WTF, and USTT and others I can not remember.

What organizations are offshoots of what? And generally, which are bad ( everyone seems to hate ATA for example ) and which are good?

Also, I would like to know what the ATA hate is about. Is it because they are known for Mcdojo's? What's up.


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 28, 2012)

WTF is not a style. WTF is a sport sanctioning body. 

The style you mean is Kukkiwon.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 28, 2012)

The org doesn't make the TKD good or bad. The instructor does.

The ATA has plenty of fans, or they'd be defunct by now. They also have a number of practices (5 year old black belts, for example) that many practitioners find objectionable.

The KTA would have to be considered the oldest org, so nearly all TKD organizations could be considered offshoots of the KTA.
When General Choi died in 2002, the ITF splintered into at least 3 groups, all of which claim to be "the" ITF. There are tons of other orgs (such as the GTF) and unafiliated schools that can be traced back to ITF training. The Kukkiwon has done a better job, I think, of keeping schools "in the fold".
You can get a pretty good idea of the schools background by looking at their forms. Do they use the Chang Hon (ITF), Palgwe (original KTA/WTF), or Taegeuk (modern Kukkiwon/WTF) forms?

Unless you (generic you) have a specific goal in mind (you must [currently] have Kukkiwon certification for the olympics, for example) then I wouldn't worry about which org a school is affiliated with. I'd look at the quality of the instruction, as shown by the quality of the students.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 28, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> WTF is not a style. WTF is a sport sanctioning body.
> 
> The style you mean is Kukkiwon.



He didn't say style. He said organization. The WTF is certainly an organziation.


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 28, 2012)

"Are ITF and WTF the only notable styles"

Yes, the WTF is an organization. They still have nothing to do with curriculum.


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## Kenlee25 (Mar 28, 2012)

So ITF would be considered under the "Traditional" Category? If I'm correct, Traditional is the type the Korean Army uses?


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 28, 2012)

You'd first need to define "traditional"...

If you're talking about sport orientation, then no. All TKD orgs (so far as I am aware)have some form of free sparring, and thus have at least some degree of sport orientation. 
The ITF training I had was not very sport oriented, but neither is the Moo Duk Kwan/Kukkiwon school I train at now. 
Again, it's the individual school and it's masters who determine these things.


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 28, 2012)

Although I'm not sure I'd bet anything that the South Korean army trains in Kukkiwon Taekwondo, not ITF. Choi aligned himself with North Korea early on.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 28, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Although I'm not sure I'd bet anything that the South Korean army trains in Kukkiwon Taekwondo, not ITF. Choi aligned himself with North Korea early on.



Actually,  General Choi was greatly responsible for TKD in the Korean military before he moved to Canada. 

At this time, though, since the South Korean government runs the Kukkiwon, it's safe to say that their schools are KKW affiliated.


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## dancingalone (Mar 28, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> At this time, though, since the South Korean government runs the Kukkiwon, it's safe to say that their schools are KKW affiliated.



Anyone ever heard of Tukong Moosul?  I know of 2 different groups that use this name and they both claim they are the South Korean 'military martial art'.


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## puunui (Mar 28, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> The KTA would have to be considered the oldest org, so nearly all TKD organizations could be considered offshoots of the KTA.



I would have said that the kwan are the oldest organizations, but you mentioning the KTA made me stop and think. I have to think more about this.


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## puunui (Mar 28, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Anyone ever heard of Tukong Moosul?  I know of 2 different groups that use this name and they both claim they are the South Korean 'military martial art'.



I believe the story behind tukong musul is that some captured North Korean soldiers and tested their hand to hand combat ability. Hapkido, Judo, Taekwondo trained people went up against them, and the result of these experiments was the creation of tukong musul. I think.


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## dancingalone (Mar 28, 2012)

puunui said:


> I believe the story behind tukong musul is that some captured North Korean soldiers and tested their hand to hand combat ability. Hapkido, Judo, Taekwondo trained people went up against them, and the result of these experiments was the creation of tukong musul. I think.



So the claim that it is taught to the South Korean army is legit?


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## puunui (Mar 28, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> So the claim that it is taught to the South Korean army is legit?



I don't know if it is taught to the south korean army. Perhaps in some specialized units today, maybe. I think the only art that is taught to south korean soldiers is taekwondo. I think I have a book on it at home, let me go see what it says. Hopefully it is in english.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 28, 2012)

puunui said:


> I would have said that the kwan are the oldest organizations, but you mentioning the KTA made me stop and think. I have to think more about this.



I thought about the kwans being the oldest, but they were, essentially, independent schools directly under the control of their kwan jang. In todays world, unaffiliated strip mall dojangs. That's neither good or bad, in and of itself, but to my way of thinking it does keep them from being an organization. I see organizations as being somewhat more corporate (that's not worded exactly right, but it's the best I can do - I'll give it more thought).


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## RobinTKD (Mar 29, 2012)

I wouldn't particularly like to call any Taekwondo 'traditional', nothing to do with it's history, more to do with the fact that it is a martial art based on modern scientific principles. Theory of power generation comes from body mechanics in place of something like Ki/Qi/Chi. Also, it should evolve around what is proven to work, that's why the KKW change things, it's why you have some people in the ITF trying to change things, to fit in with modern knowledge of what works and what doesn't, how to train and fight for longevity, not training to a point where you reach 40 years old and your news are gone and you can't make a fist through arthritis. To me, the true essence of Taekwondo, regardless of organisation, is evolution.

I realise that's quite off topic, but if you're looking to train in Taekwondo, forget which 'style' or organisation you should train with, and concentrate on the school and instructor. Who knows, if there's an ATA dojang in your area with an amazing teacher, why would you disregard him to go with an inferior ITF or KKW teacher?


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## Instructor (Mar 29, 2012)

I would avoid trying to label or lump into groups.  It just doesn't wash anymore.  It's about the individuals.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 29, 2012)

Kenlee25 said:


> Just wondering. I see a lot of different acronyms thrown about when it comes to Taekwondo, including ATA, ITF, WTF, and USTT and others I can not remember.
> 
> What organizations are offshoots of what?


Readers Digest version:
The Kukkiwon is the actual style that is promoted via the WTF, and the Kukkiwon is the result of the merger of the nine kwans extant prior to Unification act of 1973 (?). 

The WTF is the World Taekwondo Federation and is the sport sanctioning body of Kukki Taekwondo and the governing body for Olympic taekwondo.  

The USTU was the US Taekwondo Union and was the national governing body for Olympic Taekwondo in the US.  It was reorganized into USAT, which is USA Taekwondo.  

 The ITF is the International Taekwondo Federation and promotes Chang Hon taekwondo.  The ITF was established by General Choi Hong Hi. The ITF developed, if I'm not mistaken, prior to the completion of unification efforts and predates the Kukkiwon.   

The ATA is the American Taekwondo Association and promotes Songahm taekwondo.  It was founded in 1969 by Haeng Ung Lee.  I was led to believe that they originally used the Chang Hon forms prior to establishing the Songahm forms and I also have heard that he came out of the ITF (not sure of the details there).

There are some smaller organizations:

Jhoon Rhee Taekwondo, which promotes 'Might for Right' taekwondo, is an offshoot of the ITF.  I trained at the Jhoon Rhee dojang back in the late seventies in Kensington Maryland.  Fond memories.  I know that early on, he taught Chang Hon forms.  I have no idea what they teach now.

The NPTA, National Progressive Taekwondo Association, which I'm pretty sure uses Chang hon forms and is an offshoot of the ITF.

The ITA; International Taekwondo Alliance, which promotes Ho-Am (Tiger rock) taekwondo, and is an offshoot of the ATA.

There is a small, but present contingent of ITA members here, but I haven't seen any presence of the NPTA here at all.



Kenlee25 said:


> And generally, which are bad ( everyone seems to hate ATA for example ) and which are good?


Not so much a good or bad, but a 'good' for you based on what you are looking for.  If you want to be part of a large, international organization that has portability of rank and through which you can potentially go to the Olympics, Kukkiwon/WTF/USAT is your ticket.  Way more schools than pretty much any of the others, using mostly the same curriculum, with dan grades registered with a central body in Korea, so rank portability is actually meaningful on a worldwide basis.

ITF folks frequently call the Chang Hon TKD 'traditional' or 'original' TKD.  Whatever the nomenclature, it is a very well developed system that incorporates a more ballanced sparring style (more hands and feet) and incorporates some elements of hapkido.  The organization is somewhat fractured (I believe that there are three different groups claiming to be the 'real' ITF), so I don't know what rank portability is like.  Earl Weis or Chris Pillars could tell you a lot more than I can.

The ATA is pretty huge in the states, though there are no schools anywhere near my own area, and within the organization, there is portability of rank like the Kukkiwon has.  Their sparring style is a light contact style that resembles WTF's full contact style with regards to how it looks and what the available targets and techniques are.  They aim at suburban kids and teens and hit the mark very well, though they do have adult programs as well.  

Smaller orgs will tend to mirror whatever larger org they came out of.

The school that is 'good' has more to do with the instructional staff than it does with the organization.  A lot comes down to what type of sparring you like.  



Kenlee25 said:


> Also, I would like to know what the ATA hate is about. Is it because they are known for Mcdojo's? What's up.


Mainly they are criticized for issuing black belts and first dans to young children (five), light contact/heavy padding sparring, having a bilevel, eight tiered belt system (each belt has two levels), the camo belt, and for having a commercial feel.  The schools tend to be financially successful and the ATA seems to have mechanisms to support school owners on the business side.  This brings me to the last criticism: they're expensive, though that criticism cannot be leveled at them alone.

I've seen youtube videos of ATA practitioners posted on various forums, only to receive snyde comments and harsh critique, and seen videos of people of other styles who look no better lauded as being technically gifted.  

By and large, I think that the 'hate' comes from the fact that the ATA promotes itself as a family organization and makes no pretenses about being the 'uber tough style'.  The ATA demographic reflects the demographic that I see in most of the MA schools in my area: kids, moms, and some dads, along with a smattering of suburban teens and adults.  And they seem to embrace the image.  

Perhaps some see themselves reflected in that image a bit too clearly for their own liking?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 29, 2012)

RobinTKD said:


> I wouldn't particularly like to call any Taekwondo 'traditional', nothing to do with it's history, more to do with the fact that it is a martial art based on modern scientific principles. Theory of power generation comes from body mechanics in place of something like Ki/Qi/Chi. Also, it should evolve around what is proven to work, that's why the KKW change things, it's why you have some people in the ITF trying to change things, to fit in with modern knowledge of what works and what doesn't, how to train and fight for longevity, not training to a point where you reach 40 years old and your news are gone and you can't make a fist through arthritis. To me, the true essence of Taekwondo, regardless of organisation, is evolution.
> 
> I realise that's quite off topic, but if you're looking to train in Taekwondo, forget which 'style' or organisation you should train with, and concentrate on the school and instructor. Who knows, if there's an ATA dojang in your area with an amazing teacher, why would you disregard him to go with an inferior ITF or KKW teacher?


Had to rep you for this one!!  Especially the last paragraph!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 29, 2012)

Kenlee25 said:


> So ITF would be considered under the "Traditional" Category? If I'm correct, Traditional is the type the Korean Army uses?


I trained under two Korean masters who served in the ROK special army.  Both said something to the effect that you get a Kukkiwon ildan and a black belt for serving your tour.  They also indicated that the 'taekwondo' that they received in the ROK was more along the lines of functional H2H and some hapkido-esque grappling.  The art that they learned in the special army was called Teuk Gong Mu Sul if I remember correctly.

Regardless, both had excellent taekwondo and were a blast to work with.


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 29, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Actually,  General Choi was greatly responsible for TKD in the Korean military before he moved to Canada.
> 
> At this time, though, since the South Korean government runs the Kukkiwon, it's safe to say that their schools are KKW affiliated.



Yes, with the Oh Do Kwan, before the Kukkiwon existed and predating Choi's North Korean connection


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## miguksaram (Mar 29, 2012)

puunui said:


> I believe the story behind tukong musul is that some captured North Korean soldiers and tested their hand to hand combat ability. Hapkido, Judo, Taekwondo trained people went up against them, and the result of these experiments was the creation of tukong musul. I think.



It was my understanding that this was developed in the mid to late 70's within a specific SK military unit called Tukgong as a counter measure to the N.K. commando unit.  The martial arts practiced was developed by 5 men and taught specifically to the Tukgong unit and not to the whole SK army.


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 29, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Although I'm not sure I'd bet anything that the South Korean army trains in Kukkiwon Taekwondo, not ITF. *Choi aligned himself with North Korea early on*.



At the risk of causing massive thread drift and starting some people off on yet another Gen. Choi bashing, the bolded part of your statement is incorrect.

As for what kind of Taekwon-Do the ROK army trains in, it started out as Oh Do Kwan. Now? Well, since CISM first recognized the WTF and Gen. Choi exiled himself from South Korea in the early 70's if they have any sort of official program it would be WTF/KKW Taekwon-Do.

Pax,

Chris


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 29, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> As for what kind of Taekwon-Do the ROK army trains in, it started out as Oh Do Kwan. Now? Well, since CISM first recognized the WTF and Gen. Choi exiled himself from South Korea in the early 70's if they have any sort of official program it would be WTF/KKW Taekwon-Do.


If I remember correctly, wasn't Oh Do Kwan simply the military gym?  I had thought that the bulk of the members, the General included, were CDK.


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 29, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If I remember correctly, wasn't Oh Do Kwan simply the military gym? I had thought that the bulk of the members, the General included, were CDK.



Yes, the Oh Do Kwan was the military gym. Many of its members were Chung Do Kwan members because the CDK was the largest civilian gym and thus had the most recruits. Gen. Choi was a member of the CDK in the sense that he was the honorary Kwan Jang at one point. This meant that CDK members didn't have to re-test of they already were yudanja. Members of other Kwans did have to be re-evaluated. But anyone training in the army was part of the Oh Do Kwan. 

Edit: It should be noted that there were some civilian Oh Do Kwan schools, too.

Pax,

Chris


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 29, 2012)

puunui said:


> I believe the story behind tukong musul is that some captured North Korean soldiers and tested their hand to hand combat ability. Hapkido, Judo, Taekwondo trained people went up against them, and the result of these experiments was the creation of tukong musul. I think.


I completely missed this part of the discussion before posting.  When I saw Miguksaram's post quoting you, I thought that maybe it was from another thread.  Then I went back and sure enough, it was there on the first page of this one.  

One of my former sabeom (still a good friend) had trained in this in the ROK special army.


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## terryl965 (Mar 29, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> So the claim that it is taught to the South Korean army is legit?



I do not know if I would say legit, but they certainly by some accounts had alot to do with it. It is how one would look at a half glass of water- is it half full or half empty. That is how much of TKD is.


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## mastercole (Mar 29, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> Yes, the Oh Do Kwan was the military gym. Many of its members were Chung Do Kwan members because the CDK was the largest civilian gym and thus had the most recruits. Gen. Choi was a member of the CDK in the sense that he was the honorary Kwan Jang at one point. This meant that CDK members didn't have to re-test of they already were yudanja. Members of other Kwans did have to be re-evaluated. But anyone training in the army was part of the Oh Do Kwan.
> 
> Edit: It should be noted that there were some civilian Oh Do Kwan schools, too.
> 
> ...



Yes, at that time all military members were members of the Oh Do Kwan and for a time many had to re-test. However, not all of them practiced the Oh Do Kwan curriculum. My Jidokwan seniors told me that they never learned the Oh Do Kwan curriculum, they spent their Taekwondo time sparring, just as they did at their Jidokwan Dojang. I was told that only if you were stationed in Wonju the main Oh Do Kwan HQ base, or one of the other few locations that were considered Oh Do Kwan Jidoja centers would you have to practice the Oh Do Kwan curriculum.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 29, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Yes, with the Oh Do Kwan, before the Kukkiwon existed and predating Choi's North Korean connection



You keep trying to make a connection between General Choi and North Korea that doesn't exist. The claims have been disproven several times, and continued efforts to bring that nonsense into the thread has resulted in at least one thread closure. Please stop it.


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## mastercole (Mar 29, 2012)

I do think there is a difference in technique, what you learn, and what you are supporting by your involvement with a Taekwondo organization. 

I trained in various Taekwondo groups, from Chang-hon/ITF to Kukkiwon. I found that I preferred Kukkiwon, for technical reasons at first, then other reasons later on. I saw some skilled people in other organizations that had impressive skill, but not to the level I encountered in Kukkiwon Taekwondo. That said, I have seen unskilled people in all Taekwondo organizations, including Kukkwion, but I never thought everyone had to be perfect, but I did expect to see some impressive black belts at least.

However, I have never seen a pure ATA black belt that impressed me with their fighting skills, not that some might not exist, over the past 4 decades, I just never saw one and there are a lot of ATA schools around me and across the country.


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## mastercole (Mar 29, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> You keep trying to make a connection between General Choi and North Korea that doesn't exist. The claims have been disproven several times, and continued efforts to bring that nonsense into the thread has resulted in at least one thread closure. Please stop it.



Wrong, CHOI Hong Hi's "connections" to North Korea have never been disproved, where did you get that at?  CHOI Hong Hi's own son, former ITF senior members, North Korean news papers, North Korea and their United Front Department disagree with you. But that can be a thread of it's own if you want, not need to get into details in this thread.


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 29, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> You keep trying to make a connection between General Choi and North Korea that doesn't exist. The claims have been disproven several times, and continued efforts to bring that nonsense into the thread has resulted in at least one thread closure. Please stop it.



I think you're incorrect since I don't remember ever mentioning Choi's connection with NK.

You're also not right about his connection with NK but that's another topic.


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## puunui (Mar 29, 2012)

RobinTKD said:


> I wouldn't particularly like to call any Taekwondo 'traditional', nothing to do with it's history, more to do with the fact that it is a martial art based on modern scientific principles. Theory of power generation comes from body mechanics in place of something like Ki/Qi/Chi. Also, it should evolve around what is proven to work, that's why the KKW change things, it's why you have some people in the ITF trying to change things, to fit in with modern knowledge of what works and what doesn't, how to train and fight for longevity, not training to a point where you reach 40 years old and your news are gone and you can't make a fist through arthritis. To me, the true essence of Taekwondo, regardless of organisation, is evolution.



The traditional part of taekwondo for me is the culture and values, showing respect to our teachers and seniors, taking care of our students and juniors, the building of relationships. But you are entirely correct that taekwondo is based on science and biomechanics, which should include methods which do not lead to injury. Everyone should be able to practice taekwondo, regardless of their age. If you are always suffering from injuries, then that is a sign that something is wrong.


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## puunui (Mar 29, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> Yes, the Oh Do Kwan was the military gym. Many of its members were Chung Do Kwan members because the CDK was the largest civilian gym and thus had the most recruits.



The Moo Duk Kwan was the largest civilian kwan, not the Chung Do Kwan.


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## puunui (Mar 29, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> You keep trying to make a connection between General Choi and North Korea that doesn't exist. The claims have been disproven several times, and continued efforts to bring that nonsense into the thread has resulted in at least one thread closure. Please stop it.



The connection between General Choi and North Korea is established fact. General Choi is buried in North Korea.


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## puunui (Mar 29, 2012)

puunui said:


> I don't know if it is taught to the south korean army. Perhaps in some specialized units today, maybe. I think the only art that is taught to south korean soldiers is taekwondo. I think I have a book on it at home, let me go see what it says. Hopefully it is in english.



I looked at the tukong mu sul book that I have. It is in english and korean, but for some strange reason, the history section is only in hangul. Irrespective of that, there are a lot of photos in the book with huge group photos with people who look to be wearing military uniforms. The techniques demonstrated to me look like kuk sool won, which isn't a bad art.


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## dancingalone (Mar 29, 2012)

puunui said:


> I looked at the tukong mu sul book that I have. It is in english and korean, but for some strange reason, the history section is only in hangul. Irrespective of that, there are a lot of photos in the book with huge group photos with people who look to be wearing military uniforms. The techniques demonstrated to me look like kuk sool won, which isn't a bad art.



Thank you for looking.

The local group have a variety of soft forms they claim descends from the Shaolin temple.  They are practiced with an emphasis on fluidity like KSW forms likewise are.


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## jks9199 (Mar 29, 2012)

Folks, 
I don't quite see what the connections between General Choi and North Korea have to do with the various taekwondo organizations.  If you want to talk about that, you may wish to take it to a new thread.  Keep this one to sorting out the general differences of the organizations, OK?


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 29, 2012)

Not interested in going through your nonsense about the ITF being a terrorist org again. Enjoy yourselves.


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## mastercole (Mar 29, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not interested in going through your nonsense about the ITF being a terrorist org again. Enjoy yourselves.



Then why did you bring it up? I told you to go make another thread if you want to start that discussion.


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## mastercole (Mar 29, 2012)

puunui said:


> I believe the story behind tukong musul is that some captured North Korean soldiers and tested their hand to hand combat ability. Hapkido, Judo, Taekwondo trained people went up against them, and the result of these experiments was the creation of tukong musul. I think.



I just asked my Taekkyon instructor about Tukongmusul and he said the same thing. He also said it is only practiced by some special units of the military in addition to Taekwondo. He said all military personnel take at least some Taekwondo, especially in basic. In basic they don't wear a dobok, but the training with kicking and punching just like they do running, shooting, climbing, etc. It's simply part of basic training. 1 year military personnel does not have to get 1st Dan in Taekwondo, 2 years or more does, unless you already have Kukkiwon Dan.

He said that Tukongmusul was designed for intense "crazy" training, like running and diving high in the air and landing on your chest, breaking objects with your head, throwing knives at the trainees, etc. It was their intention to create something that seemed more extreme than their North Korean counter parts.  Foreigners don't practice it. But now there are several off shot organizations market their brand of Tukongmusul, but it is not like the original, it is packaged for foreigners. 

That said, Taekkyon is offered in only one place in the Korean Military, it's Korea's equivalent of USA's West Point, called "Yuk-kun Sakwan Hak Kyo", these Cadet's learn Taekkyon in addition to Taekwondo.


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 29, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not interested in going through your nonsense about the ITF being a terrorist org again. Enjoy yourselves.



Hey, I just stated a fact, didn't say anything remotely untrue. ODK did teach the military and Choi did associate with the North Korean government. I will point out though I've never said anything negative about Choi personally or his decisions or methods.


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## puunui (Mar 30, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I thought about the kwans being the oldest, but they were, essentially, independent schools directly under the control of their kwan jang. In todays world, unaffiliated strip mall dojangs. That's neither good or bad, in and of itself, but to my way of thinking it does keep them from being an organization. I see organizations as being somewhat more corporate (that's not worded exactly right, but it's the best I can do - I'll give it more thought).



Thought about it overnight. These are my opinions on it. The kwan were more than strip mall type dojang, especially starting in the 1950s when branches (ji kwan) started spreading all over the country. Back then, it was a race to see who could expand the fastest. During this period, the kwan were competing against each other and were not truly interested in coming together. 

Also in the 50's there were "organizations" that sprouted up which attempted to unify the arts into a single group. These early efforts all failed because the kwan jang could not agree. This was for many different reasons, one of the big ones was there was a discrepancy between the older generation of practitioners (although not necessarily divided by seniority) and the younger generation of practitioners who all started training in the 1940s and were all roughly about the same age. It wasn't until the younger generation became empowered that taekwondo began to unify, under the KTA. This happened starting around 1961 and continued through the late 70s. 

So as far as organizations go, I would agree with you that the KTA is the oldest organization in taekwondo, because it, like you said, was the first to really unify taekwondo, which I believe is the function of organizations, in taekwondo.


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## puunui (Mar 30, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The Kukkiwon is the actual style that is promoted via the WTF, and the Kukkiwon is the result of the merger of the nine kwans extant prior to Unification act of 1973 (?).



Close. The Kukkiwon serves as the World Taekwondo Headquarters and is entrusted with three main functions, among others: 1) rank certification; 2) establishment of the technical standards of taekwondo; and 3) the training of leaders for taekwondo, whether at an instructor course, coach course, etc. I believe the Kwan Unification Proclamation was signed in 1965, and another more final one was signed in 1978. There were nine main kwan that participated in the unification process, including the Oh Do Kwan, but there were ten kwan who signed the 1978 proclamation. The tenth was the Kwan Ri Kwan, which included members of the Moo Duk Kwan that got separated. Never understood why there was a need for two kwan for Moo Duk Kwan members, but that is what happened. However, with the building and development of the Taekwondowon in Muju, the Kukkiwon's function and purpose main change.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> The WTF is the World Taekwondo Federation and is the sport sanctioning body of Kukki Taekwondo and the governing body for Olympic taekwondo.



Correct. The WTF serves as the International Federation for taekwondo with the IOC and the Olympic movement, and as such focuses mainly on the competition aspects of taekwondo. However, this may also change, with the building of the Taekwondowon in Muju. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> The USTU was the US Taekwondo Union and was the national governing body for Olympic Taekwondo in the US.  It was reorganized into USAT, which is USA Taekwondo.



Correct. The USTU served as both the Member National Association for the WTF, and the National Governing Body for taekwondo under the US Olympic Committee. In 2004-2005, there was a reorganization and remediation of the USTU and during that process, the name was changed from USTU to USAT. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> The ITF is the International Taekwondo Federation and promotes Chang Hon taekwondo.  The ITF was established by General Choi Hong Hi. The ITF developed, if I'm not mistaken, prior to the completion of unification efforts and predates the Kukkiwon.



Yes, the ITF was created in 1966 and therefore predates the kukkiwon, which was established in 1972. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> The ATA is the American Taekwondo Association and promotes Songahm taekwondo.  It was founded in 1969 by Haeng Ung Lee.  I was led to believe that they originally used the Chang Hon forms prior to establishing the Songahm forms and I also have heard that he came out of the ITF (not sure of the details there).



Close. The ATA was first created as the US Member National Association of the ITF. I don't remember the exact date of the ATA's creation but do know that the organization was founded by a group of practitioners, composed of mainly students of GM KANG Suh Chong, who served as the ATA's first president. GM LEE Haeng Ung was one of GM Kang's students from Incheon, where GM Kang's dojang was located. GM Lee was a refugee from North Korea during the Korean War, and like many other refugees from North Korea, landed and settled in the Incheon area. While there, he learned taekwondo from GM Kang, and later got a job at Osan AFB. He and his friends opened the Osan Chung Do Kwan, he had an american student who sponsored him, and that is how he came to the US. Later, GM Kang resigned from the ATA and GM Lee took over as President. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> There are some smaller organizations:
> 
> Jhoon Rhee Taekwondo, which promotes 'Might for Right' taekwondo, is an offshoot of the ITF.  I trained at the Jhoon Rhee dojang back in the late seventies in Kensington Maryland.  Fond memories.  I know that early on, he taught Chang Hon forms.  I have no idea what they teach now.



I don't know how large GM Rhee's organization is at this point. I don't think very large, compared to other groups out there, only because many of his senior students have broken away and are now doing their own thing. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> The NPTA, National Progressive Taekwondo Association, which I'm pretty sure uses Chang hon forms and is an offshoot of the ITF.



Never heard of this organization. 



Daniel Sullivan said:


> The ITA; International Taekwondo Alliance, which promotes Ho-Am (Tiger rock) taekwondo, and is an offshoot of the ATA. There is a small, but present contingent of ITA members here, but I haven't seen any presence of the NPTA here at all.



I heard of this organization but am not familar with it, other than I believe Dr. He Young Kimm serves as a technical advisor of sorts.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 30, 2012)

puunui said:


> Close. The ATA was first created as the US Member National Association of the ITF.


Now that I did not know.



puunui said:


> I don't know how large GM Rhee's organization is at this point. I don't think very large, compared to other groups out there, only because many of his senior students have broken away and are now doing their own thing.


I suspect that it is fairly wide, but very thinly, spread, with concentrations in certain areas.  Jhoon Rhee is a pretty big deal around here.  Everyone has heard of him and his organization probably has the most schools after the KKW/WTF.  There are virtually no other large organizations with a presence in this area; I think that there might be an ITF school in Baltimore (the one in Montgomery County that mentions the ITF on their website is not an ITF school) and I don't think that there are any ATA schools at all in the state, though I could be wrong on that.  I think that there is, or at least was, one ITA school out in Takoma Park.  There are five Jhoon Rhee schools in Maryland (Frederick, Potomac Valley, Jefferson, Walkersville, and Columbia) and two in Northern Virginia (Falls Church and Arlington).  



puunui said:


> I heard of this organization but am not familar with it, other than I believe Dr. He Young Kimm serves as a technical advisor of sorts.


Granfire could tell you more, as I'm pretty sure that she is ITA.  I think that there are a couple of other MT members who are also ITA.


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## dancingalone (Mar 30, 2012)

puunui said:


> Close. The ATA was first created as the US Member National Association of the ITF. I don't remember the exact date of the ATA's creation but do know that the organization was founded by a group of practitioners, composed of mainly students of GM KANG Suh Chong, who served as the ATA's first president. GM LEE Haeng Ung was one of GM Kang's students from Incheon, where GM Kang's dojang was located. GM Lee was a refugee from North Korea during the Korean War, and like many other refugees from North Korea, landed and settled in the Incheon area. While there, he learned taekwondo from GM Kang, and later got a job at Osan AFB. He and his friends opened the Osan Chung Do Kwan, he had an american student who sponsored him, and that is how he came to the US. Later, GM Kang resigned from the ATA and GM Lee took over as President.



There's been some rewriting of history in the ATA, whether intentional or not.  GM Kang's contributions are largely unknown to the broad base.  Perhaps it's because they regard the establishment of Songahm, which occurred after GM Kang left, to be the true birth of their group?



puunui said:


> I don't know how large GM Rhee's organization is at this point. I don't think very large, compared to other groups out there, only because many of his senior students have broken away and are now doing their own thing.



I think there are lots of schools in Texas which still refer to him in their histories but they have no day-to-day ties with him.  My first dojang was one such.  We teamed together with a number of our sister schools to bring in GM Rhee for a shim sa, so I was honored to have him as the chief examiner for my chodan test, but we otherwise had no regular contact with him.


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## dancingalone (Mar 30, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Granfire could tell you more, as I'm pretty sure that she is ITA.  I think that there are a couple of other MT members who are also ITA.



They don't call it ITA anymore.  It's something like TRMAI now, doubtlessly the change had to do with changing company structures and such.  My niece used to be an ITA black belt but she's ATA now.  The ITA was a split off from the ATA, and her transition from one org to the other was pretty seamless.

Both the ITA/TRMAI and ATA are strong in the southern parts of the US.  They outnumber every other TKD option in my market.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 30, 2012)

And here's the website: http://tigerrockmartialarts.com/


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## puunui (Mar 30, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Now that I did not know.



I believe that was the original goal of the ATA to be the national body for the ITF. But other groups popped up, like the USTF and I think that sort of fell apart and the ATA moved into a different direction. But the original ATA group was composed of students of GM Kang, people like Dr. He Young Kimm, GM Lee Park, and GM Haeng Ung Lee. GM Hee Il Cho was also a member of the ATA, but I don't know if he was a direct student of GM Kang. I vaguely remember that GM Cho spent time or was raised in Incheon when he was young, so there might be some training time with GM Kang mixed in. I can go ask him, he lives on the same island as I do and he is my kwan senior.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 31, 2012)

GM HU Lee was a Chung Do Kwan product originaly  and General Choi apparently remained friends since I have a video the ATA did in NK in early 2000 or so and GM Lee is shown sitting and observing with General Choi.


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## puunui (Apr 1, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> GM HU Lee was a Chung Do Kwan product originaly  and General Choi apparently remained friends since I have a video the ATA did in NK in early 2000 or so and GM Lee is shown sitting and observing with General Choi.



I don't know if General Choi and EGM Haeung Ung Lee "remained friends". I think the reason why EGM Lee was in North Korea was because that is where he was born, before he became a North Korean refugee, landing in Pusan after the Korean War, which is where his teacher, GM KANG Suh Chong was teaching.


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