# Knee pain suggestions.



## Ironbear24 (May 14, 2017)

I been working on my roundhouse kicks a lot lately, and other kicks as well. And my knees ache. I looked at the anatomy of the knee pinned thread for advice but the page it has linked there is no longer available.

I mean I could go to the doctor but they are just going order and x-ray and that takes awhile. I will still do it to be safe but I'm wondering if there is anything you guys do for knee pain and treatment.


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## Flatfish (May 14, 2017)

Ice and rest, if it doesn't get better see a doc. Is it in both knees?

Also make sure you stretch well after. Tight muscles can put pressure on your joint and make them hurt even if there's nothing wrong with the joint itself


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## Bill Mattocks (May 14, 2017)

See a doctor. You don't know what they may do.

Consider that if roundhouse kicks make your knees hurt, you may have incorrect body mechanics.


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## Danny T (May 14, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> See a doctor.
> 
> Consider that if roundhouse kicks make your knees hurt, you may have incorrect body mechanics.


^^^^^^ This.


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## JowGaWolf (May 14, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> I'm wondering if there is anything you guys do for knee pain and treatment.


  I do a combination of what is advised by Flatfish and Bill
My choices are one of these two things depending on how bad my knee hurts.  The worse the pain is the more likely I would need to see the doctor.  Not every knee pain demands a trip to the doctor, but you are the only one that can tell if your pain is a result of over-training and wearing your knee out.  Or if it's a more serious issue.  

For me, my first step is to ice and Rest even if you are going to see a doctor.  I follow the R.I.C.E method from when I took 3 years of sports medicine in high school.  In reality I don't always use the compression because the injuries that I get don't always involve swelling.  I treat all of my injuries regardless of how small.  The bigger injuries usually require me to use compression.  You should always take care of an injury regardless of how small.  I give my knees a rest when I feel a small discomfort, I don't push like I used to do when I was younger.  When I was younger it was always about pushing through, but I learned the hard way that sometimes, pushing through makes the problem worse.  Had I slowed things down when I felt the discomfort then I could have completely healed within one or two days of rest.

Don't let injuries heal on their own. Always treat them.  If the injuries are still bad then see a doctor.   Some doctors will actually tell you that if a pain persist beyond a certain amount of time then you should see the doctor.  But they usually follow that up with. "listen to your body."  You known when something isn't right and might need more attention than what you can do.

I would also do what Bill suggested which is to pay attention to my body mechanics of how I do a round house kick.  When my knee is better I would do a round house kick slow enough where I can pay attention to what's going on with my standing leg.  I need to see if I'm twisting on my knee or not.  If you kick too fast then you may not be able to detect the twisting.  You don't need to kick in slow motion, but the kick has to be at a speed that will allow you to take note of your body mechanics.  Keep in mind it may not be a big twist.  It may be small twisting that you don't notice when you are kicking hard.  Take a video of you doing a round house kick to help you analyze your kicking mechanics. 

Also ask your teach to take a look at your round house.  Let him know what trouble you are having. He may be able to see something you don't.   

My guess is that you either over-trained and wore your body out or your kicking mechanics are off and you are twisting on the knee.


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## JR 137 (May 14, 2017)

I like this, and no it isn't a shot at you personally, Ironbear.  People say "my knee (or whatever else) hurts; what's wrong with it?" all the time.  I always say "how am I supposed to know when all you've said is it hurts?"

What are you supposed to do about knee pain?  What you need to do could range from nothing at all to full knee replacement or amputation.  It all depends on what is wrong with it.

Tell us more about your knee.


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## Headhunter (May 14, 2017)

Learn to kick properly


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## Gerry Seymour (May 14, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> I been working on my roundhouse kicks a lot lately, and other kicks as well. And my knees ache. I looked at the anatomy of the knee pinned thread for advice but the page it has linked there is no longer available.
> 
> I mean I could go to the doctor but they are just going order and x-ray and that takes awhile. I will still do it to be safe but I'm wondering if there is anything you guys do for knee pain and treatment.


A good kick to the kneecap usually....oh, wait, you wanted to know....ah, right, then.

Do go to your doctor if it's sharp (doesn't sound like it, since you used the word "ache") or lasts more than a few days. He can tell you a lot about the pain without x-rays and MRI. The location of the pain, the type of pain, and when you feel it will all be indicators of what is injured and how badly. Some knee pain is insignificant. Some is significant, but just needs rest from aggravating activity for a few days. Some is an indicator of a weakness somewhere in the knee's support system. A small portion of knee pains indicate something that would require therapy or surgical intervention, and you want to rule those out before you make them worse.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 14, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> See a doctor. You don't know what they may do.
> 
> Consider that if roundhouse kicks make your knees hurt, you may have incorrect body mechanics.


I've been wondering this about my own kicks lately. I've put more power practice in than I've done in a long time, and my knees (and one hip) have been griping about it. I need to find someone who's really good at teaching kicks to get a refresher, because I think I've let something creep into my kicks that's causing trouble.

That, or my knees are just being b*tchy. They do that sometimes.


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## JowGaWolf (May 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've been wondering this about my own kicks lately. I've put more power practice in than I've done in a long time, and my knees (and one hip) have been griping about it. I need to find someone who's really good at teaching kicks to get a refresher, because I think I've let something creep into my kicks that's causing trouble.
> 
> That, or my knees are just being b*tchy. They do that sometimes.


What type of kick are you doing? Side?


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## Gerry Seymour (May 14, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> What type of kick are you doing? Side?


Mostly round kicks. I've never favored side kicks, and my front kicks are rarely for power - more for controlling space or setting up the round kicks. My front kicks can't reliably reach the face, but my round kicks can reach the head.


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## Bill Mattocks (May 14, 2017)

When I do mawashigeri or otoshigeri, I find I'm more apt to injure the knee on the planted leg than the kicking leg. Generally I'm not allowing my planted foot to reposition leading to twisting the knee. I try to watch that. Worse for us heavy guys.


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## drop bear (May 14, 2017)

loose weight strengthen your legs.

Capoeira gave me knee pain for about 6 months getting used to it.


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## Buka (May 14, 2017)

What kind of knee pain are we talking about? And where on the knee, exactly? Is it the exact same thing in both knees? Is it constant, or just when you're kicking, when you're walking, when you're sitting? Did it come on suddenly, or have you been dealing with this for a bit?


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## CB Jones (May 14, 2017)

I've heard eating a tablespoon of cinnamon every morning helps with strengthen joint ligaments and tendons.


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## Ironbear24 (May 14, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> See a doctor. You don't know what they may do.
> 
> Consider that if roundhouse kicks make your knees hurt, you may have incorrect body mechanics.



But I don't wanna have bad body mechanics . People at the dojo say my low roundhouse has bad mechanics because I tend to not "drop my weight into it each time" but the higher it goes they say the better I am at doing them. 

If it is bad from I guess I can post a video later to see what's going on.


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## Ironbear24 (May 14, 2017)

Buka said:


> What kind of knee pain are we talking about? And where on the knee, exactly? Is it the exact same thing in both knees? Is it constant, or just when you're kicking, when you're walking, when you're sitting? Did it come on suddenly, or have you been dealing with this for a bit?



When standing up, squatting and kicking, it is in both but more severe on the right.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 14, 2017)

As mentioned before get checked out by a physician!

Then have your instructor help correct your mechanics so that you get it right according to your system.

I have suffered from knee pain in my left knee.  I teach roughly 10 to 15 private and group lessons a week plus I run two to three times a week, lift weights, etc.  A while ago it was really starting to bother me so I on a whim tried the copper fit Brett Favre knee sleeves.  I haven't had knee pain since then.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 14, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> As mentioned before get checked out by a physician!
> 
> Then have your instructor help correct your mechanics so that you get it right according to your system.
> 
> I have suffered from knee pain in my left knee.  I teach roughly 10 to 15 private and group lessons a week plus I run two to three times a week, lift weights, etc.  A while ago it was really starting to bother me so I on a whim tried the copper fit Brett Favre knee sleeves.  I haven't had knee pain since then.


You know, I have a pair of copper fit sleeves. They don't seem to help much, no matter what pocket of my training bag I leave them in.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 14, 2017)

I love mine I hardly train without them anymore.


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## JowGaWolf (May 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> My front kicks can't reliably reach the face


Here's a kung fu secret.  Front kicks don't have to reach the face in order to be useful.  Use them to destroy everything from the lower ribs down and you'll have a dangerous weapon.  Not all kicks have to travel to the face.  Hopefully this will help you to gain more use out of your front kick. 

I can't help you with the other kick as we do not have them in Jow Ga and as a result we don't train them much.


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## JR 137 (May 14, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I've heard eating a tablespoon of cinnamon every morning helps with strengthen joint ligaments and tendons.



And a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down, the medicine go down.  In the most delightful way.


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## Bill Mattocks (May 15, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> But I don't wanna have bad body mechanics . People at the dojo say my low roundhouse has bad mechanics because I tend to not "drop my weight into it each time" but the higher it goes they say the better I am at doing them.
> 
> If it is bad from I guess I can post a video later to see what's going on.



I have a question here.  If the "people at the dojo" know enough to know your body mechanics are bad, why are they not fixing them with you?  If they are, why are you not following your instructions?

I'm not adverse to seeing your video, but don't you think you should be asking your instructor about the issue and seeking his or her advice on how to fix it?


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## tkdmaster78 (May 15, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> I been working on my roundhouse kicks a lot lately, and other kicks as well. And my knees ache. I looked at the anatomy of the knee pinned thread for advice but the page it has linked there is no longer available.
> 
> I mean I could go to the doctor but they are just going order and x-ray and that takes awhile. I will still do it to be safe but I'm wondering if there is anything you guys do for knee pain and treatment.



I have the same problem and I've had it for years. It doesn't get better with time. The snapping motions inherent in most kicks are punishing to the knees. When you kick air with no bag or target, it makes the problem worse. 

Best you can do is not snap your kicks at 100% during training. Go maybe 75% snap at the most during class. Always hold something back. Be sure to rest between classes, take time off occasionally, and cross train.


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## Flatfish (May 15, 2017)

Cut off your leg.....it's not like you don't have another one


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## JowGaWolf (May 15, 2017)

tkdmaster78 said:


> The snapping motions inherent in most kicks are punishing to the knees. When you kick air with no bag or target, it makes the problem worse.


If it hurts when kicking at 100% while doing air kicks, then my guess would be that you are sending the energy (force) incorrectly when you kick.  Similar when people try to "snap" their jabs, where the force is sent out through the elbow and not the end of the fist.  Similar things happens with kicks, such as the front heel kick, front snap kick.  I can only assume that this issue would exist in roundhouse kicks that "snap."  I think the problem starts with terminology because you really aren't snapping the kick.  You are pulling the kick back and not actually snapping it.  I understand not all styles kick this way and actually snap the kick which works for performance and show of skill but not practical in fighting as leaving the leg up would put the person at risk.   

I think students get the wrong visualization when kicks and punches are described to student as "snapping."  When the student first feels a snapping in their limbs then he or she may assume that they are doing it correctly.  With the exception of conditioning and strength building.  None of the kicks and punches should inflict self-damage when punching or kicking in the air.  This is where the saying "if it hurts then you are doing it wrong." applies; either that or you your body naturally does not like the kick due to it's physical make up (weak ligaments and tendons, out of place tendons, old injuries, age, etc)


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## tkdmaster78 (May 15, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> If it hurts when kicking at 100% while doing air kicks, then my guess would be that you are sending the energy (force) incorrectly when you kick.  Similar when people try to "snap" their jabs, where the force is sent out through the elbow and not the end of the fist.  Similar things happens with kicks, such as the front heel kick, front snap kick.  I can only assume that this issue would exist in roundhouse kicks that "snap."  I think the problem starts with terminology because you really aren't snapping the kick.  You are pulling the kick back and not actually snapping it.  I understand not all styles kick this way and actually snap the kick which works for performance and show of skill but not practical in fighting as leaving the leg up would put the person at risk.
> 
> I think students get the wrong visualization when kicks and punches are described to student as "snapping."  When the student first feels a snapping in their limbs then he or she may assume that they are doing it correctly.  With the exception of conditioning and strength building.  None of the kicks and punches should inflict self-damage when punching or kicking in the air.  This is where the saying "if it hurts then you are doing it wrong." applies; either that or you your body naturally does not like the kick due to it's physical make up (weak ligaments and tendons, out of place tendons, old injuries, age, etc)



I should mention that it doesn't hurt at the time. It hurts _over time_ as repetitions increase from 10s to 100s to 1000s to 10000s, etc. I didn't start to have any knee pain at all until I had been doing Taekwondo and Hapkido full time for about five years, so it wasn't a question of doing the technique wrong. *Basically, once I got up around the 1000th class mark, that's when my knee problems started.*

It's not uncommon to see master instructors having hip replacements, knee replacements, and other surgery to fix problems caused by repetitive kicking exercises.

When I say "snapping", I am referring to the additional whip-like motion that is commonly placed on kicks to add force rather than swinging the limb through the air purely on momentum. It would take about 10 pages to describe this in text but I won't attempt that here because it's outside the scope of the post.


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## TSDTexan (May 15, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> And a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down, the medicine go down.  In the most delightful way.



Tez3?
Are you hacking JR's account ?


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## JowGaWolf (May 15, 2017)

tkdmaster78 said:


> It's not uncommon to see master instructors having hip replacements, knee replacements, and other surgery to fix problems caused by repetitive kicking exercises.


  This would be more than enough to make me question the training, conditioning and strengthening exercises, and the technique. 

It's like when people say that Kung Fu injures the knees.  When I hear that I think if they are using the correct structures or if they are doing conditioning exercises that help strengthen the tendons.

Then you have the challenge of doing 1000 kicks perfectly.   As the body loses endurance, the more the person is at risk for doing the technique incorrectly. 

Then there is also the issue of not giving the body enough time to repair especially as we age.


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## JR 137 (May 15, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Tez3?
> Are you hacking JR's account ?



I don't think there's really a way to prove my account wasn't hacked, but no.  Still me.


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## TSDTexan (May 15, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> This would be more than enough to make me question the training, conditioning and strengthening exercises, and the technique.
> 
> It's like when people say that Kung Fu injures the knees.  When I hear that I think if they are using the correct structures or if they are doing conditioning exercises that help strengthen the tendons.
> 
> ...



Bad kung fu(an oxymoron) injures knees whether it's bad in student who knows what the correct technique is, but doesn't do it, or  bad instructor passing on incorrect training.

But this isn't limited to CMA... it applies to all fighting arts.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 15, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I love mine I hardly train without them anymore.


I should try that for a while.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 15, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Here's a kung fu secret.  Front kicks don't have to reach the face in order to be useful.  Use them to destroy everything from the lower ribs down and you'll have a dangerous weapon.  Not all kicks have to travel to the face.  Hopefully this will help you to gain more use out of your front kick.
> 
> I can't help you with the other kick as we do not have them in Jow Ga and as a result we don't train them much.


Oh, I still use them, just not as often for power. I don't tend to go low with power strikes, so there are fewer targets for power with a front kick than for the round kicks. And then there's my crappy toe - can't really front kick with the left foot with any power, nor low. Besides, round kicks are more fun to practice.


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## tkdmaster78 (May 15, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> This would be more than enough to make me question the training, conditioning and strengthening exercises, and the technique.
> 
> It's like when people say that Kung Fu injures the knees.  When I hear that I think if they are using the correct structures or if they are doing conditioning exercises that help strengthen the tendons.
> 
> ...



I wouldn't say the martial art injures the knees. In most cases it comes down to overuse, wear and tear, etc. 

*A perfect example would be a runner:*  If you run once in a while, chances are your knees will be fine. If you run 10k (or miles if you prefer) every single day, that accumulated pounding on the joints _will_ cause knee injuries. You can _lessen_ it by stepping correctly, reducing body weight, and wearing proper shoes, but it can't be _eliminated_. 

Since martial arts is preparation to defend oneself in a fight, and given that the actions taken in a fight are violent and cause extreme stress on the body, it only makes sense that students will experience injury to the joints (especially the knee) over time because of the incredible amount of torque that is placed on them during kicking exercises, especially if they always kick full force and pile up many years doing it. Your body is like a car: it's not the age, it's the _mileage_ that does you in. You can be old at 30 or young at 50, depending on how you live your life. 

A kick or punch isn't powerful unless the body is "loaded" immediately prior to executing it. That "loading" refers to the built-up spring-like tension that the body has to produce prior to releasing a kick. Everything from tension in the feet and knees to tension in the hips and upper body (like a snake coiling before striking). Without that loaded spring, the kicks are empty and powerless. By its very nature, loading up that spring involves putting pressure on the ligaments in the knees. 

I'm no doctor by any means, but I've got entire books on improving Knee health written by doctors, and I've discussed it at length with my family doctor.

Today, my knees are doing a lot better than they were. They'll never be 100% again, but a reduction in kicking combined with using less kicking force during training has helped immensely.


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## TSDTexan (May 15, 2017)

for the Op

BIOMECH Breakdown: The Roundhouse Kick


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## Ironbear24 (May 16, 2017)

The issue seemed to be excessive training and occasionally rotating on the balance leg improperly. It was so small I didn't catch the mistake so over time it added more strain in the knees.


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## JowGaWolf (May 16, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> The issue seemed to be excessive training and occasionally rotating on the balance leg improperly. It was so small I didn't catch the mistake so over time it added more strain in the knees.


Glad you found out what was going on.


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## TSDTexan (May 16, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> The issue seemed to be excessive training and occasionally rotating on the balance leg improperly. It was so small I didn't catch the mistake so over time it added more strain in the knees.


Did you read the link I posted


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## Ironbear24 (May 16, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Did you read the link I posted



Yes.


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## TSDTexan (May 16, 2017)

This was posted in a Facebook group that I follow... good read

Knee Pain in Martial Arts: Causes and Remedies | Full Potential Martial Arts


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