# distinguishing tsd



## Runs With Fire (Aug 10, 2017)

What is it that visualy sets Tang Soo Do apart from other korean arts? What techniqes and tendencies if you saw at an open tournament would incline you to think a practitioner is a TSD student? Other than hyung curriculum,  what does/ should it look like?


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## Martial_Kumite (Aug 12, 2017)

Lets take it bit by bit. (This is based on my knowledge and experience).

_"What is it that visualy sets Tang Soo Do apart from other korean arts?"_

The best way that I can describe the difference it that TSD is more "grounded". I like to view MA's via and elemental perspective ( I know it sounds ridiculous, just hear me out). TSD has movements that are like earth, strong, powerful, and a connection to the ground. They can deliver solid attacks with accurecy, mixing in both hands, legs, and in some cases arms. 

Naming a specific KMA to compare it to might be easier that using an umbrella. 
_
What techniqes and tendencies if you saw at an open tournament would incline you to think a practitioner is a TSD student?_

This one is harder to answer, due to moves being shares, interprested, and translated differently between diffrent style. Not too long ago, we had a Shotokan practitioner come and sighn up at our studio. They knew a great deal of curriculum that (almost) exactly matched what was in TSD. The main difference that set him appart were the details.
Tendencies wise,  he showed more reliance on upper body movment. His stances were also lighter that that of a full TSD practitioner. Sparing agenst him, he also kept his armes quite close to his body for how tall he was, and focused more on quick combos with the arms.
TSD preactioners will have a tendecy to use their legs to keep people with in a certin range, and follow with evation combos, or hand leg combos. TSD also have tendencies to have "heavier" stances, while being defencive, but this can depend on the instructor and the persons experience.

_Other than hyung curriculum, what does/ should it look like?
_
What dose the curriculum look like, or just in general? I assume you mean the first. What I have been taught is that one should learn via line, beauty, speed. Line, meaning that one is able to have the basic moves. Beauty is focusing on the fine details, the applications, and what exactly the move is doing. It is evolving it pass muscle memory, which is very easy to do if done correctly. Speed is just as it sounds. It is adding speed to the first to elements until it becomes seamless, and can be drawn upon in less than an instance. 

TSD, also hits on Mudo, determination, and other moral character mumbo that most places use (making finding a diffrence harder)

On the out side, from a non-practitioner perspective, it looks like being able to know how to defend agents any attack in over 50 ways. And instructors being exceptionally picky about details. 
TSD is known as a passive art, so defence is constantly taught. 


Hope this helps, I would realy like to hear what other differences I have missed are.


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## Buka (Aug 13, 2017)

Visually. Hmmm.

Well, there's the gis, patches and what not. The kicks in Tae-kwon-do seem to have more of an extension to them, more of an "open"hip, and there seems to be more kicks practiced. Seems to be differences in sparring as well. Tang-soo-do has some nice looking black belts, though. Got that black/bue thing going in some of their schools.

It's all good, though.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 15, 2017)

There was a TSD group that often practiced in the other side of the gym when I studied HKD.  They had an unusual set of kata if you would call it that.  Two students would face each other, then begin a slow set of movements.  They would mimic each others movements, kicks, punches, whatever.  I've never seen any other art do that.  I don't know if that is done TSD wide or just was that teacher's method.


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## Martial_Kumite (Aug 16, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> There was a TSD group that often practiced in the other side of the gym when I studied HKD.  They had an unusual set of kata if you would call it that.  Two students would face each other, then begin a slow set of movements.  They would mimic each others movements, kicks, punches, whatever.  I've never seen any other art do that.  I don't know if that is done TSD wide or just was that teacher's method.




I beleave that is an instructor thing. Havent seen that at my studio.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 16, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> I beleave that is an instructor thing. Havent seen that at my studio.



It could be, or maybe an obscure branch of TSD.  After I had seen that I read someone else stating he had seen that and implying it was a TSD thing.  But it was unusual.  I remember the teacher used to practice running up a wall in a semicircle.  Part prowess and part stunt.  But it was impressive to watch anyway.


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## Runs With Fire (Aug 28, 2017)

My experience is tsd focuses more on power and technique than tkd.  Tkd is more emphasis on speed.  As I have been taught,  tsd is comprised of linear, angular, and circular movements.  Where as tkd is mostly linear. Oh, and deep heavy stances.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 28, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> It could be, or maybe an obscure branch of TSD.  After I had seen that I read someone else stating he had seen that and implying it was a TSD thing.  But it was unusual.  I remember the teacher used to practice running up a wall in a semicircle.  Part prowess and part stunt.  But it was impressive to watch anyway.


I have a friend who used to (maybe still does) teach TSD. I've never seen anything like that in his school, nor heard any of his students (nor him) refer to such a practice. Of course, he could be the obscure offshoot.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 28, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> My experience is tsd focuses more on power and technique than tkd.  Tkd is more emphasis on speed.  As I have been taught,  tsd is comprised of linear, angular, and circular movements.  Where as tkd is mostly linear. Oh, and deep heavy stances.


I've seen some fairly circular movement from some advanced folks in TKD, so that may be dependent upon the instructor, too.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've seen some fairly circular movement from some advanced folks in TKD, so that may be dependent upon the instructor, too.



Or a movement in TKD to incorporate things from other MA that they think will make their version of TKD more effective.  But back when I was studying TKD, I didn't advance very far and if I saw circular movement, I probably wouldn't have recognized it.  But advanced teachers today would probably know things from advanced levels that most of us would not have been exposed to.

But there is the fact that there are movements in TKD forms that no one seems to know the reason for.


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## karatemom3 (Sep 8, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> What is it that visualy sets Tang Soo Do apart from other korean arts? What techniqes and tendencies if you saw at an open tournament would incline you to think a practitioner is a TSD student? Other than hyung curriculum,  what does/ should it look like?


This is an auditory, not visual thing that I have only noticed in TSD/SBD.  That  ?ssst sound at the end of a breath. I am curious if this originates from Grand Master Hwang Kee.


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## Runs With Fire (Sep 9, 2017)

karatemom3 said:


> This is an auditory, not visual thing that I have only noticed in TSD/SBD.  That  ?ssst sound at the end of a breath. I am curious if this originates from Grand Master Hwang Kee.


I've heard it done, but never done it.  No one at my school did the snake sounds. I always thought that sort of thing was silly.


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## dancingalone (Sep 11, 2017)

I've been told the reverse roundhouse kick (peet cha gi ? ) is a signature move in TSD.  It's true you can find lots of still photos of HC Hwang performing an excellent example of that kick.  

More on TSD (school specific? ) breathing here:  TSD Breathing


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## Runs With Fire (Sep 25, 2017)

dancingalone said:


> I've been told the reverse roundhouse kick (peet cha gi ? ) is a signature move in TSD.  It's true you can find lots of still photos of HC Hwang performing an excellent example of that kick.
> 
> More on TSD (school specific? ) breathing here:  TSD Breathing


Reverse roundhouse, I think that's what I know as an inverted kick ,or, inverted front kick.  Used it alot in sparring and tournaments. Kinda like a front kick with the kicking leg turned knee out ;ie sideways, or a short upward angle round kick going across my body instead of with it,  impacting with ball of the foot. Sound similar?


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## dancingalone (Sep 25, 2017)

That's the one.  Not sure how practical it is, but it's a pretty kick when done well.


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## dancingalone (Sep 25, 2017)

That's the one.  Not sure how practical it is, but it's a pretty kick when done well.


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## Runs With Fire (Sep 25, 2017)

dancingalone said:


> That's the one.  Not sure how practical it is, but it's a pretty kick when done well.


It can make for a nice gut shot/ solar plexus by reaching kinda around/ under the guards


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## Runs With Fire (Sep 25, 2017)

I'l often start with that one and follow with a quick side kick from the same leg.  Works quite well for me.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I've seen some fairly circular movement from some advanced folks in TKD, so that may be dependent upon the instructor, too.


My TKD teacher uses circular movement, but only two of the* many* black belts I have seen do circular movements.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> My TKD teacher uses circular movement, but only two of the* many* black belts I have seen do circular movements.


I remember a high-ranking Aikidoka talking with a high-ranking TKD practitioner some years ago. After sharing some thoughts and watching each other move, they came to the conclusion that - once they reached a certain level - the movement became strikingly similar. Aikido just started the circular part of the movement much earlier in the student's development.


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## pdg (Dec 29, 2018)

Runs With Fire said:


> Reverse roundhouse, I think that's what I know as an inverted kick ,or, inverted front kick.  Used it alot in sparring and tournaments. Kinda like a front kick with the kicking leg turned knee out ;ie sideways, or a short upward angle round kick going across my body instead of with it,  impacting with ball of the foot. Sound similar?



Another old post to reference...

In ITF tkd that sounds like a mid section twisting kick.

I've been told by people from 3 different schools (including mine) that they'd never seen anyone attempt to use it in sparring until I was their opponent.

Works very well actually - it's not a huge power kick but because it's utterly unexpected it knocks out wind every time 



Edit: it's a kick present in karate too - Jesse Enkamp did a video on it.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I remember a high-ranking Aikidoka talking with a high-ranking TKD practitioner some years ago. After sharing some thoughts and watching each other move, they came to the conclusion that - once they reached a certain level - the movement became strikingly similar. Aikido just started the circular part of the movement much earlier in the student's development.



I've said for a long time that the real difference between arts is focus. You'll learn to punch and kick in Aikido, but later. You'll learn to twist and throw in TKD. But later.
Aikido starts with big circles and as you progress they become smaller and more linear. TKD starts linear, and as you progress becomes more circular. TKD will always (probably) be more linear than Aikido, but they certainly become a lot closer.


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