# Fighting versus sparring



## kroh (Feb 18, 2004)

Hey there all... 

Just wondering what the sparring is like in other JKD schools out there.   I know there is a lot of sparring going on and that it is good to do because it gives you an active forum for practicing your fighting.   But in reality, does sparring train us for "reality."   I know a lot of the stuff i would do in a real fight i can only simulate in sparring or have to work on a bag because it is too dangerous ( nothing goofy, just stuff like kick at the ankles and knee, poke the eyes...etc).   

Thanx for the minute
WalT


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## pesilat (Feb 18, 2004)

kroh said:
			
		

> Hey there all...
> 
> Just wondering what the sparring is like in other JKD schools out there.   I know there is a lot of sparring going on and that it is good to do because it gives you an active forum for practicing your fighting.   But in reality, does sparring train us for "reality."   I know a lot of the stuff i would do in a real fight i can only simulate in sparring or have to work on a bag because it is too dangerous ( nothing goofy, just stuff like kick at the ankles and knee, poke the eyes...etc).
> 
> ...



Sparring isn't fighting. Even things like the UFC - a sterile environment, predefined ring size, known number of opponents and weapons, and a ref - isn't "fighting" in the street sense of the word. The UFC is still sparring - just turned up quite a few notches from what people can do on a daily basis in training.

However, the UFC is as close to a real fight as you're ever going to see on TV (except for the occasional news clip or shows like Cops). And sparring is the best tool we have for training to fight. It approximates many elements of a fight - the rush of the biological chemical cocktail, giving and receiving pain, chaotic action, etc. And sparring can be taken to a level, like the UFC or (even moreso) like the Dog Brothers or (moreso still) some underground stuff that would be shut down if the authorities found out about it (these things aren't as common as the movies make out and are likely never as well organized as they tend to be in the movies but they do exist), that comes as close to real fighting as possible.

So sparring is a very useful tool. But people who mistake sparring for fighting are in for a rude awakening at some point. There's always someone willing to turn things up. A guy used to point sparring will get woken up when he eats a hard shot or gets tackled. A guy used to full contact stand up sparring will get woken up when he gets taken to the ground. A guy used to groundfighting will get woken up when he gets laid out by a good shot before things get to the ground. A guy used to MMA fighting will get woken up when a weapon is brought into the equation. There's always another aspect or different elements that can throw things for a loop. 

We can't train for everything. Of course, if someone is really worried about getting into a real fight then they need to push their training harder than someone who's just interested in developing their abilities in a less urgent manner or over a longer span of time. So all we can do is train at whatever intensity level we feel we need, keep training and developing, enjoy ourselves, and, if something really goes down, do the best we can and let the chips fall where they may.

Mike


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## kroh (Feb 18, 2004)

I whole heartedly agree with the last statement that when it comes down to it, the chips are going to fall the way they fall.   Time and training can do a lot to alter how and when they hit the dirt... But ultimately, it is very hard to train for the real thing due to the potential lethality posed by a real fight.

I mean...If you went into the studio everynight for a real fight...Brain damage or worse could happen as a result of the prolonged exposure to that level of trauma.  Unless you were so good that the other guy never lays  hand on you... but what about if you are the other guy?  

I like the chaotic nature of sparring in the training hall...it provides a proving ground for what I can reasonably pull off.  The only thing that I don't like is that i don't get the terminal effect i would be striving for in a real fight.  I was told on more than one occasion that you should train for the three second fight.  It happens, you end it as quickly as possible, and you get out.  Whether that happens in 3 seconds or not is probably a gross exaggeration.  The point is a continual fight as perpetuated in the schools and in the rings and in films are not the types of fights i want to be in.   The longer I am in "fight mode," more opportunities for me to get hurt by the other knuckle throwing idiot, present themselves.   Sparring does not adress this as I am doing it now.  It is more like kick boxing with the occasional advanced technical skill thrown in.   

How bout others out there...  I realize that sparring allows practice for targeting...and a few well placed shots will end it quick... But if that is the case...Why am i learning all these other skills...and is there a bridge out there for me to train with them in a more chaotic enviornment??

Thanx again for the great post Mike...

WalT :cheers:


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## moving target (Feb 18, 2004)

A lot of people I know treat sparring like a game. They don't take it seriously like they take the rest of training, they don't treat it like a training tool they treat it like a competition.

When used it can work well to train virtualy anything short of giving someone actual fear of being hurt realy bad or killed. So basicly anything outside of a real fight. (Provided you are comfortable sustaining any injury that might be posable/probable with whatever you are doing.)


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## Mormegil (Mar 2, 2004)

kroh said:
			
		

> The only thing that I don't like is that i don't get the terminal effect i would be striving for in a real fight.  I was told on more than one occasion that you should train for the three second fight.  It happens, you end it as quickly as possible, and you get out.  Whether that happens in 3 seconds or not is probably a gross exaggeration.  The point is a continual fight as perpetuated in the schools and in the rings and in films are not the types of fights i want to be in.   The longer I am in "fight mode," more opportunities for me to get hurt by the other knuckle throwing idiot, present themselves.   Sparring does not adress this as I am doing it now.  It is more like kick boxing with the occasional advanced technical skill thrown in.
> 
> How bout others out there...  I realize that sparring allows practice for targeting...and a few well placed shots will end it quick... But if that is the case...Why am i learning all these other skills...and is there a bridge out there for me to train with them in a more chaotic enviornment??
> 
> ...




That's a good point.  Something I've noticed in my Jun Fan/JKD class is when train partner drills, we typically do the Muay Thai style 3 punches and a kick after an entry.  We carry this into the sparring, where we spar for 1 minute or less rounds.  It's good for cardio, conditioning and coordination, but in a real fight, I would probably want to go for the takedown.  

At the same school, in Kali or Silat, we have a definite progression from entry (Masook or Pasook), to softening up, to take down (like a biset), to finishing move (usually a limb break)


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## Gary Crawford (Mar 2, 2004)

I was talking to a Kung Fu master one day and he told me a guy came into his school and said he wanted to learn how to "fight".They let him watch his class and afterward they asked him if he wanted to have a drink with them,he accepted.When they arrived at the bar,the Master ran up to the bar,grabbed someones drink,drank it and told the owner of the drink"please sir,don't hurt me!"pointed at the prospective student and said " he told me he would beat me up if I didn't do this!"The owner of the drink carried the prospective outside and proceeded to beat the living S&^T out of him!The next day,the prospective student returned to the school and asked the master "Why did you do that?'the master replied "You said you wanted to learn how to fight!"


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## moving target (Mar 3, 2004)

Well I disagree with that attitude. Whenever you are learning anything the best method of teaching is not to just throw a novice student into the end act to teach them how its done.


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## Gary Crawford (Mar 3, 2004)

I dissagree with that kind of attitude also,I was just sharing what "Bucky" Buchanon told me


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## KennethKu (Mar 3, 2004)

99% of the sparring people do are no use in a real fight. Good exercise for health benefit though.  But since most of these people would never have to use their skills to save their asses anyway, so all is good, I suppose.


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## ThuNder_FoOt (Mar 18, 2004)

I agree with Mike on the notion that sparring is not real fighting. Whenever any type of rule is implemented, or guidlines are followed, it ceases to be the unpredictable chaos that is fighting. Of course, it doesn't hurt to spar either. This will broaden your chances of protecting yourself and others if need be. The UFC and NHB type events, I don't really see as fighting. Most altercations that I've witnessed almost always involve more than 1-on-1 type situations. Let alone the fact that there are no weapons used. As Mike stated, there's always going to be an element missing that is over-looked. But that also doesn't dismiss the fact that all these are great training tools.

Kroh, as far as the learning of all those other tecgniques... the 3second fight principle is not foolproof, as I'm sure you already know. There will be many a times where your reaction technique may not be as effective because you didn't hit squarely, or any number of variables. I believe we learn all those "other" techniques to better address the dofferent possible variables as they present themselves. ANd also, it depends on the given situation, you may need to protect yourself in a continual fight. Its possible your opponent may be able to take some punishment, or maybe you are protecting someone. One has to appraciate the variability that is fighting.


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## kroh (Apr 14, 2004)

Hey there T.F., 

You bring up a very good point about the variety of technique representing the variety of situation that could occour.  The problem I see more often than not is that the fighter trains these skills day in and day out but then never applies them in a more lively enviornment.  One of the guys that trains with us is the senior martial arts instructor for a certain style at a local university.  His fighting using some of the strategies that he learns in the school really shines.   When you fight him you feel as though you are sparring an octopus that can kick ( silly Hapkido guys ). Anyway, fighting him is more than impressive because you see him experimenting and training the skills that he trains with the university program and ours. A punch could end up transitioning into a trap-counter hit- into a throw. The things is...even if he eats one to try it...he tries it.

 Fighting some of our students who have not been doing this kung foolery as long, you see that they tend to kick box and never apply the vast array of skills that they learn.   So is the problem that they just haven't put 2 and 2 together and realized that they SHOULD be expereimenting in sparring?  Or is it that EGO gets in the way of taking a shot in order to build skill in a particular area.  Have things gone that far south that students are more concerned with looking tough rather than learning skills?  

Any thoughts?


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## pesilat (Apr 14, 2004)

kroh said:
			
		

> I like the chaotic nature of sparring in the training hall...it provides a proving ground for what I can reasonably pull off.  The only thing that I don't like is that i don't get the terminal effect i would be striving for in a real fight.  I was told on more than one occasion that you should train for the three second fight.  It happens, you end it as quickly as possible, and you get out.  Whether that happens in 3 seconds or not is probably a gross exaggeration.  The point is a continual fight as perpetuated in the schools and in the rings and in films are not the types of fights i want to be in.   The longer I am in "fight mode," more opportunities for me to get hurt by the other knuckle throwing idiot, present themselves.   Sparring does not adress this as I am doing it now.  It is more like kick boxing with the occasional advanced technical skill thrown in.
> 
> How bout others out there...  I realize that sparring allows practice for targeting...and a few well placed shots will end it quick... But if that is the case...Why am i learning all these other skills...and is there a bridge out there for me to train with them in a more chaotic enviornment??



For me, learning other skills just gives me options. I've been trained to never rely on anything to work. I just keep flowing until something _does_ work. But flowing means I have to have options. And, past that, it means I have to be able to reflexively - both on a physical and mental level - recognize the options and flow from one to the next without hesitation.

I don't think the "3 second fight" is much of an exaggeration. It may last longer than that - but, at least in my experience, it's usually decided within the first few seconds (maybe up to 5 seconds but not much more). At least, this has been the case where 1 or more of the fighters is _really_ trying to finish the fight ASAP. Fights where neither is really committed to finishing it can go longer - usually between drunks who _can't_ finish even if they want to or between friends who don't really want to hurt each other, they just need to vent some frustrations.

A way to spar for the "3 second fight", though, is with "kills shots." It requires that you have a partner you can trust to be honest about things and that you, in turn, be honest about things. You show "finishers" - i.e.: a shot to the throat, a kick to the knee, etc. - and acknowledge them as probably deciding the fight. Then you start over - kind of bringing some realism into point sparring. Also, using scenarios in this can help. Basically, you spar from a scenario and when one of you feels that the fight would probably be decided (not necessarily over), you mention it. This concept can also incorporate multiple opponents/friends/bystanders (depending on scenario), weapons, and environmental training. Put some foam chairs (i.e.: the foldable futon chair things), some focus mits, maybe a heavy bag or two on the floor to simulate chairs/tables/whatever environment. Put some empty plastic drink bottles around that can simulate weapons - put them on "tables", "the bar", floor, whatever you have in the mock environment. You can grab them and use them to simulate bottles, glasses, etc. Set up a "kitchen" environment and put some training knives in a drawer, some tupperware bowls as "pots & pans" - etc. Then use the "kill shot" method in your mock environment. Another interesting thing for environmental training is to get a bunch of those rubber BBs (airsoft style) and put them on the floor to simulate gravel  And, of course, you can also train outside on slopes and such. Get creative. Get wild. Get "real." 

Mike


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## loki09789 (Apr 14, 2004)

Sparring, that I have experienced, works best when the goals and desired skill/training outcomes are specified in advance (for training purposes, competitive sparring is pretty clear from the get go).  If the idea is to use sparring as a training tool to develop reaction time, power striking, forward agressiveness, evasive footwork, grappling entries.... or what ever the preset goal is, that needs to be explained in advance.

Any sparring gives players the chance to work on bearing, control, angerless agression, fear response control, frustration, pain (emotional and physical).... regardless of whether it is free form or limited or otherwise.

The confusion seems to be when people put too much value in sparring as 'fighting'- or more accurately, self defense.  Self defense is observing, avoiding (if it is reasonably safe), hitting (if it is necessary, and only with reasonable force), running  and reporting (something else that benefits from training and repetition).  Each phase of this process needs to be identified and trained to some degree if self defense truly is the desired goal of training.

Sparring generally only addresses or trains that 'fighting' is the desired response in that one phase of the entire process.  It is generally timed or sustained so that there is some  repetition of a specific skill for development.  That could be a bad training habit if sparring is defined as the epitomy of self defense training.


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## kroh (Apr 14, 2004)

Excellent post mike...Very cool to the scenario training.  When I was in the Army we did things like that but in the dojo we tend to stear clear of it.  Bottles and chairs might mess up the floor.   :asian: 

Hey Loki...You hit the nail right on the head.  My fear for some of my training buddies is that they take the sparring *as THE epitome of self defense training* .  Yes it toughens and trains them up and works on their skills, but what about the other things they are training.  IF they spend a quarter of their class time working on a certain way to address a punch, wouldn't they want to try it out *beyond* the static fixed position drilling?  

Personally, one thing that always stood out was an analogy to the Roman method of training where they used to litter the training grounds with garbage ( in some places knee high) and tell the troops to train their fighting methods amidst the piles.  The obstacles and stench would prepare troops to fight amid the stink and pitfalls of dead bodies strewn about the battlefield.  Train as you fight  i guess...(this of course goes back to Mike's previous post.).  

Great posts guys ...thank you...

WalT


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## loki09789 (Apr 15, 2004)

Back when I ran a commercial self defense program, we use to do the footwork and warm ups with the aerobic classes steps and lifters thrown all over, jackets, keys, chairs... and they had to move (safely as reasonably possible) through and around and over these things while maintaining a level head position.  My reasoning was that it was 'silhouetting' or 'telegraphin' because it would trigger a visual acuity reaction from the bad guys if they didn't control the motions.  Not to mention that if there are firearms involved, upright bodies going over an obstacle tend to make better targets.  And in this day and age, firearms should be reasonably assumed.


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## kroh (Apr 15, 2004)

Good  point Paul...

Do you do any firearms training in your personal program and when you had a school did you incorporate it into the program there?  I used to be a soldier so firearms just work for me ( as comfy as a knife or stick in the hand).

IN the context of sparring Vs. fighting, does anyone out there do any type of sparring or fight training empty Vs. gun at extreme close range?

WalT


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## ThuNder_FoOt (Apr 16, 2004)

kroh said:
			
		

> Hey there T.F.,
> 
> You bring up a very good point about the variety of technique representing the variety of situation that could occour.  The problem I see more often than not is that the fighter trains these skills day in and day out but then never applies them in a more lively enviornment.  One of the guys that trains with us is the senior martial arts instructor for a certain style at a local university.  His fighting using some of the strategies that he learns in the school really shines.   When you fight him you feel as though you are sparring an octopus that can kick ( silly Hapkido guys ). Anyway, fighting him is more than impressive because you see him experimenting and training the skills that he trains with the university program and ours. A punch could end up transitioning into a trap-counter hit- into a throw. The things is...even if he eats one to try it...he tries it.
> 
> ...



You bring up an excellent point Kroh. I agree with you, sparring should be as alive as one can permit it to be. However, there are times where two students spar to perfect a certain technique. For example, certain rules are put into the sparring to bring out a given technique. But if we are talking open sparring, then I agree that one should keep the sparring alive. This means experimenting, in which you will take a few hits here and there like you stated. But I would rather take it sparring, than in a situation where I may need to defend myself. My only concern is that some people just don't have enough repoire established between them to spar in such a manner. I think that repoire plays a big part in sparring.

 :asian:


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## loki09789 (Apr 17, 2004)

kroh said:
			
		

> Good  point Paul...
> 
> Do you do any firearms training in your personal program and when you had a school did you incorporate it into the program there?  I used to be a soldier so firearms just work for me ( as comfy as a knife or stick in the hand).
> 
> ...



Firearms training... more for hunting and sport shooting, but like tribal warriors of earlier days, the hunting skills translate to combatives applications.  My military service days are behind me too, and I haven't had time or money to get my pistol permit here in NY state.

In my commercial school, a former Marine friend who is ranked/trained by ESI in Exec. Protection and works for INS now came and did a seminar program for us with weapon retention/neutralizing drills... I loved how the girls were better at getting the job done that some of my male students.  I remember one guy (nice enough fella, but more interested in 'appearing' real than training reality) who was suppose to be role playing the Bad Guy ended up trying to crawl away from my Exec. Protection friend (with him sitting on this guys back like a rodeo king) instead of trying to get to the principle being protected or taking way my friends weapon.

As far as regular firearms training for students, I found that it was too much reality for some to take until they had developed some skill and confidence in other simulated scenarios first.  The training was more weapons recognition and familiarization (revolvers vs autos, long vs side arm, safety, loading/unloading and general operation....) more than a shooting program.  Defenses were generally redirecting the muzzle, controlling the weapon and pounding the SH*# out of the BG.  If he was too far to touch it was a tactical call of run or cooperate or fake cooperation until you could run.... something like that.

Krav Maga has some really simple and devastating defenses against firearms.

From my FMA background, I use some of the same 'de fanging the cobra concepts' that are usually applied to stick and knife/sword defense.  THey take some tweeking, but they apply.


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## kroh (Apr 20, 2004)

Hey there...

I totally agree with the statement that the average person's ( even martial artist ) view of firearms is extremely reserved.  Most people today view them in much the same light as a sword was viewed hundreds of years ago  The basic understanding is that if some one is going to attack some one, they are going to do it with the simplest and most inexpensive weapon possible...After all, since most criminals that would simply assault some one are stupid, there is no way they would be able to get their hands on a gun....Right?

Even in the martial arts classes of today where pajamas and funny colored sashes are the norm, gun defense is rarley taught and gun use is almost non-existant.  ONly in classes such as those taught by Hochheim (great instructor, I highly recomend him) or wagner ( never trained with him, but he seems credible) do you see the subject of firearms come up with any regularity.  Too bad, all the kung fu in the world won't stop a bullet from 20 feet away, that is where dodge ball training comes in handy...

Anyway...How about some others out there? What are some of the things that you gother people are doing to make things more realistic in your sparring?  Or do you feel that sparring is fine the way that it is and needs no help.

WalT


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## FasterthanDeath (Jun 10, 2004)

When it comes to sparring or fighting you have alot of side effects from training that seriously. My teacher used to take us out to eat or take us to a movie and throw the occasional punch or kick at us to provoke a response. It got to the point where if anyone would get within 3 feet of me I would automatically put up my guard and strike or block the first thing within firing distance. I have taught my students the same way, but what I found very uneasy about it is that since it is a reflexive action you can hit or attack people who walk up to you to shake your hand or just want to be friendly, even your own family and friends can be victims. Its kind of like a post tramatic syndrome type thing. It does make you very effective and quicker and ends fights very fast, it is very hard to control. I havent found a medium yet to balance out the reflex so it can be controlled. But yes by training with fighting all the time you have a post tramatic syndrome like one of war. Any type of action that seems familar will produce the reflex that you have trained to perform. But sparring is to light and doesnt give the necessary fear and stress that real fighting does. Its a double sided sword. Find the middle.


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## Cruentus (Jun 10, 2004)

kroh said:
			
		

> Hey there all...
> 
> Just wondering what the sparring is like in other JKD schools out there.   I know there is a lot of sparring going on and that it is good to do because it gives you an active forum for practicing your fighting.   But in reality, does sparring train us for "reality."   I know a lot of the stuff i would do in a real fight i can only simulate in sparring or have to work on a bag because it is too dangerous ( nothing goofy, just stuff like kick at the ankles and knee, poke the eyes...etc).
> 
> ...



Sorry, I have only time for a quick reply, and I have not read the entire thread, but...

JKD schools are very diverse. I have seen everything to full contact NHB type fighting to no sparring at all in JKD schools.

My opinions...

you gotta have some element of "live" training, or training with a resisting, unpredictable opponent. This is where your "sparring comes in. 

Where people make the mistake is they mistaken their kickboxing, grappling, or NHB for the real deal. Sparring in the dojo with rules will never fully simulate the real deal. But, as long as you understand that, then live sparring is one of your greatest tools, because you study what adjustments you would make on the street.

The key is, if you want combative application rather then sport, train for the real deal, and have your sparring revolve around that, rather then train for the sport, and hope you can transition to the real deal when that comes.

Just IMHO...I hope I made sense...

 :asian:


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## hedgehogey (Jun 14, 2004)

What I wonder about is people who say "SPARRING NOT REAL FIGHT. SPAR NOT PREPARE YOU FOR THE CHAOS OF THE STREET." Yet usually people who say this are practicing on static, predictable opponents who just STAND THERE and let the student do their techniques. 

You can eye gouge a compliant partner a million times, but what use is it if you've never actually used it on someone hitting back?

You and your partner trying to throw each other to the ground is much more realistic, in that case.


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