# Any good advice to a non ground fighter??



## Jenna (Jun 23, 2015)

Like in the other thread about striking from below, in some defensive situation, if I am on my back mounted by an attacker, whatis the simplest / most effective advice for me I am a non-ground fighter???

I want up!!  can you tell me how you would suggest? Like I mean keep it simple because I do not really know about nothing.. I do not want to specifically gain a ground advantage nor take years learning ground skills.. I am too lazy and short on time for that.. Just for this one situation how, mechanically, am I to go about getting back to upright most expediently?  What, beyond the obvious, getting him off of me, am I aiming to do and how to do it?? I have little to no advantage against half decent ground fighters or larger opponents who have managed a takedown and mount until I am up.. or.. at the very least suwari or seiza like seated or knees where I regain some mechanical advantage or have some thing to work with.. thank you for your advice Jx


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 23, 2015)

Okay, this is the most basic approach I teach to brand new students for self-defense purposes:

Step 1) Shut down the striking. It may be technically possible to win a striking contest from the bottom, but it is highly unlikely to work out well for you. If your opponent is sitting up to rain down punches on you, sit up and grab him around the torso with your head glued tight to his chest. Drive both feet into the ground and use the power of your legs and back to drive your own shoulder blades to the ground, pulling the opponent forward so that he has to put his hands on the ground and can't use them to punch you.

Step 2) Scootch your body up towards your opponents head so that your arms are now holding him around shoulder level. Keep hugging his back and keep the side of your head glued against his chest so that he can't hit you.

If you are facing to your left, keep hugging your opponent's back with your right arm. Use your left arm to overhook your opponent's right arm and pull it in tight to your body so he can't post out with his arm. Use your left foot to trap your opponent's right ankle so he can't post out with his leg.

Step 3) Bridge your hips up and then go to your left, rolling your opponent to his back and coming up onto your knees. As you come over, swim your hands to the inside of your opponent's biceps so he can't strike, eye-gouge, or hair-pull from the bottom. You will end up in your opponent's guard.

Step 4) Make sure you end up in good posture, with your head over your hips. Since you are not a ground fighter, stand up and back out of your opponent's guard immediately. If your opponent is a jiu-jitsu fighter, that might take some technique, but the odds of you ever getting mugged by a jiu-jitsu practitioner are very small. Against most folks, you will probably just be able stand up as long as your posture is good.

There are a lot of additional "what-ifs", I could go into (what if I can't overhook his arm? what if he grapevines my legs? what if he grabs my head?, what if he's trying to choke me instead of punch me?, etc, etc), but this is one of the very first lessons I teach to new white belts.


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## Jenna (Jun 23, 2015)

This is exactly what I was wanting thank you so much Tony for taking time to lay this out step by step! It is clear enough I can even visualise though it would need a dose of practice to get this even half right.. Yes if he is to grapevine my legs I imagine he is versed at ground fighting and it is beyond what I am asking here.. just this simple escape sounds very useful to me, great help.. thank you! you have got me interested in finding more out, Jxxx


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 23, 2015)

Actually sometimes even untrained fighters will sometimes grapevine the legs, either by instinct or because they've seen trained grapplers do it. It's not too hard to deal with, though. Just some extra steps you have to get familiar with.


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## Hanzou (Jun 23, 2015)

Tony pretty much nailed it. However, if you're unable to sit up and grab his torso while he's sitting on top of you, you can also bump your hips forward in order to make him fall forward. This should make it easier to wrap him up.

Btw, there's really no reason you shouldn't learn ground fighting.


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 24, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Btw, there's really no reason you shouldn't learn ground fighting


Even if you do not go fully into ground fighting having a few basic techniques for the ground is always a good idea.


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## Hanzou (Jun 24, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Even if you do not go fully into ground fighting having a few basic techniques for the ground is always a good idea.



Well the days of getting away with a few basic techniques is slowly coming to an end. At least here in the states. I'm starting to see more grappling and MMA schools than any other form of martial art in many U.S. cities, and more meatheads opening grappling garages where they're learning Bjj and CACC from videos.

That just means that there's an ever increasing chance of running into someone with solid grappling skills. Unless you're drilling on a consistent basis, basic techniques might not be enough.


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## drop bear (Jun 24, 2015)

Jenna said:


> This is exactly what I was wanting thank you so much Tony for taking time to lay this out step by step! It is clear enough I can even visualise though it would need a dose of practice to get this even half right.. Yes if he is to grapevine my legs I imagine he is versed at ground fighting and it is beyond what I am asking here.. just this simple escape sounds very useful to me, great help.. thank you! you have got me interested in finding more out, Jxxx








Tony's bridge and roll in video form.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 24, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Tony's bridge and roll in video form.


Pretty close. The main thing I teach differently is a tight fit to prevent the opponent from posturing up to punch before you complete the reversal.


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## drop bear (Jun 24, 2015)

Q





Tony Dismukes said:


> Pretty close. The main thing I teach differently is a tight fit to prevent the opponent from posturing up to punch before you complete the reversal.



Nice.

I knee them in the bum as well.


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## kuniggety (Jun 24, 2015)

If you don't already know it, I would recommend learning the technical stand up. It is the most expedious way of hopping up from the ground while maintaining a good defensive position.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 24, 2015)

kuniggety said:


> If you don't already know it, I would recommend learning the technical stand up. It is the most expedious way of hopping up from the ground while maintaining a good defensive position.


Yep. It's not a direct answer to the original question of how to escape bottom of mount, but it's a fundamental skill that everybody should know. I generally teach it to new students on their very first day of class.


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## Langenschwert (Jun 25, 2015)

If someone's in full mount, getting up is hard. Tony's advice is solid. However, you're going to need to drill it often. It's like knife defence: it's a horrible situation to be in, so drill it consistently. Just doing it a few times will not suffice. Also, if you're small, it's even harder. Give yourself permission NOW to do what it takes... biting eye gouging, what have you. 

Also, try not to end up flat on your back. Easier said than done. However, you can do a lot on the ground from a sitting position to avoid getting pinned in the first place. It's much easier to roll someone when you can get a foot on their knee and push it away from you.

Practice bridges and shrimping as part of your normal warm-up.


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## drop bear (Jun 25, 2015)

And hit the escape.(and that is pretty much any escape) as they are moving in to mount because that is when they are the most unsettled.

This is not actually intuitive as most people want to take a little rest and consolidate before trying to get up. This works in favor of the guy on top.

Once you have rolled out of mount and are in guard. Grab their heels and stand up with your hips forwards and your head up. This will help you not get kicked in the face. And something a lot of people don't do.

Throw the feet to one side. Now if you want to lay a beat down on the guy. Throw the feet to the left as example. Drop your left knee In their guts. And hit them left hand left hammer fist.

Or run off. Either way.


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## Jenna (Jun 25, 2015)

Thank you so much for taking time to reply @Tony Dismukes, @Hanzou, @RTKDCMB, @drop bear @kuniggety, @Langenschwert every thing here is very much appreciated and just exactly what I was after: no-nonsense clear and simple good advice and stuff for me to think on too Jxxx


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## Buka (Jun 25, 2015)

I was taught to roll over the collarbone rather than the shoulder.


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## Chrisoro (Jul 20, 2015)

Tim Cartmell's Ground Proofing DVD looks promising, if your aren't interested in investing a lot of time on learning grappling. Tim Cartmell is a BJJ black belt, btw., so this is probably solid stuff.


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 20, 2015)

Taking you at your word that you don't want to be a ground person, still I would recommend a couple more ideas.  In the misfortunate circumstance you should find yourself on the ground with your opponent pinning your arms with his knees, forcefully raise one arm as you twist your body to roll him off to one side, escape however seems easiest in the other direction. 

If he grabs your lapels, straight or cross grab, with his knees at your sides, reach up and place your right hand behind his head, and place your left on his chin.  Your right hand should be open reaching around his head somewhat, and your left should be turned with your inner palm on the left of his chin.  A quick twist as you turn right will take him right off you.  If you think it is life or death, twist rapidly and forcefully as far as you can twist.  You will probably paralyze or kill if you do it forcefully.

Hopefully you will never find yourself in position to need either, or Tony's excellent defense either.


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## crazydiamond (Jul 20, 2015)

Bite a chunk out of what ever you can sink your teeth into ?


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## Steve (Jul 20, 2015)

crazydiamond said:


> Bite a chunk out of what ever you can sink your teeth into ?


Yuck.


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## crazydiamond (Jul 20, 2015)

Steve said:


> Yuck.


 
We are talking self defense and not ring fight right?


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## crazydiamond (Jul 20, 2015)




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## Steve (Jul 20, 2015)

Can't see the video.  What's it about?


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## crazydiamond (Jul 20, 2015)

Steve said:


> Can't see the video.  What's it about?


 
Basically Bruce Lee saying and or showing if your on the ground - about to be hurt badly - do what you need to do - bite.

In fact in my own class we had a ground session where my teacher said - "watch where your leg is - you can be bit"


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## Steve (Jul 20, 2015)

Ah ok.  I still think yuck.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hanzou (Jul 21, 2015)

crazydiamond said:


> Bite a chunk out of what ever you can sink your teeth into ?



If you don't care about losing your teeth, and possibly escalating the violence to the point where your face gets turned to hamburger, sure.

A better idea is to learn how to escape the chokes, holds, and positions. There's an escape for each and every one of them, and they're more reliable than attempting to bite from an inferior position.

However, if you're unskilled, desperate, or simply screwed, then yeah, bite away.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 21, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> If you don't care about losing your teeth, and possibly escalating the violence to the point where your face gets turned to hamburger, sure.
> 
> A better idea is to learn how to escape the chokes, holds, and positions. There's an escape for each and every one of them, and they're more reliable than attempting to bite from an inferior position.
> 
> However, if you're unskilled, desperate, or simply screwed, then yeah, bite away.


It also depends on how much training that you have put into your "biting".

Beginner level: Get a raw pig leg and sink your teeth all the way into the bone.
Intermediate level: Try to bite a dog's leg off, or a snake's head off before it gets you.
Advance level: Go to a zoo and test your biting skill against tiger or lion.

Whenever your opponent applies "arm bar" on you, his leg is always close to your mouth. If you have AIDS, your biting will be very powerful.

If you can bite one of your opponent's fingers off his hand, the amount of blood and also the fear that he will lose that finger for the rest of his life will make him to give up that fighting.












If you have watched "The Shawshank Redemption" movie, you will agree how powerful a biting can be.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 22, 2015)

One should never underestimate the power of "biting". Watch this clip between 18.48 - 19.25.

"Anything that you put into my mouth, you are going to lose it ..."


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## drop bear (Jul 22, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It also depends on how much training that you have put into your "biting".
> 
> Beginner level: Get a raw pig leg and sink your teeth all the way into the bone.
> Intermediate level: Try to bite a dog's leg off, or a snake's head off before it gets you.
> ...



Can you bite through a persons leg? That is a big muscle. He only need a second to break that arm. You are going to hurt him. But it will take a while to damage that leg to the point where you can get out.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 22, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Can you bite through a persons leg? That is a big muscle. He only need a second to break that arm. You are going to hurt him. But it will take a while to damage that leg to the point where you can get out.


For that "biting vs. arm bar" situation, more testing will be needed in order to draw the conclusion whether arm bar can cause more pain, or biting can cause more pain.

You should not wait for your opponent to get you into an arm bar before you start biting. You should start your biting when the ground game start. Also biting should be your "additional solution" and should not be your "main solution".

But if you don't have any ground skill, to have biting skill will be better than nothing.


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## crazydiamond (Jul 22, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> If you don't care about losing your teeth,* and possibly escalating the violence* to the point where your face gets turned to hamburger, sure.
> 
> A better idea is to learn how to escape the chokes, holds, and positions. There's an escape for each and every one of them, and they're more reliable than attempting to bite from an inferior position.
> 
> However, i*f you're unskilled, desperate, or simply screwed, then yeah, bite away*.



yes - My response was assuming this was a true self defense situation (not on the mat), were your pinned on the ground being beaten horribly, or your health and life is at risk, and you don't have the ground skills.  Bite, eye gouge, what have you.


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## Hanzou (Jul 22, 2015)

crazydiamond said:


> yes - My response was assuming this was a true self defense situation (not on the mat), were your pinned on the ground being beaten horribly, or your health and life is at risk, and you don't have the ground skills.  Bite, eye gouge, what have you.



Which comes back to my earlier point; if you're concerned about having to fight off the ground, why not simply learn some ground skills? That way, you won't have to rely on biting or eye gouging.

There's a lot of positions where there's almost no chance to pull off a bite or a gouge. Someone sitting on top of your chest or back dropping bombs on your face and head for example.


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## Hanzou (Jul 22, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It also depends on how much training that you have put into your "biting".
> 
> Beginner level: Get a raw pig leg and sink your teeth all the way into the bone.
> Intermediate level: Try to bite a dog's leg off, or a snake's head off before it gets you.
> ...



I mean, if you think a bite will get him to release the lock, go for it. At that point your pretty screwed either way. In all reality, the shock from the bite will cause him to crank your arm even harder, snapping it.

I agree that the best advice is to not end up in an arm bar. However, if you're not trained, you're not going to know how to avoid an arm bar in the first place.


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## marques (Jul 22, 2015)

Cut distance, embrasse him if he is 'low' (and them you will have other problems...). If he is 'high', make him jump 'up' with your hips (and hands). If he is well 'centred'... No very easy way, I guess. Try push hard left (and usually isn't enough), then 'explosively' change and push right (and help with hips this time; your hand is already there before...). He should fall to the side easily.

Isn't easy to explain more than that by worlds. Basically, as in Aikido (I'm right??) you should be moving, and to know where to go. But I will not control you with Aikido techniques, even if you give me the best tricks. 

There is one very easy way that I love to show (because it's VERY easy at it seems that no one no (and use) it! Sadly I don't find the video (I don't know the technique name). That is a body choke with legs on the floating ribs. (Not clear, I guess.) He just can't be much bigger than you. If I want to 'win' this is my first choice. 0,5 secondes, no risk. Plan B if it doesn't work for some reason...

Or... try it:




(joke)


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## Steve (Jul 22, 2015)

I think we're talking about defense from under mount, not guard.  In mount, your opponent's hips are in front of yours, meaning your legs are not in a position to squeeze the ribs. 

This is a tough one, and I've avoided chiming in, not because I don't know counters/escapes from under mount.  Really, it's just that it's never, ever easy.  The defense Tony shared is BJJ 101 and it's solid.  There are others where you can regain guard, which would then give you a lot more options for engaging or disengaging.  But the truth is, under mount is just a crappy place to be, and the only good way to learn to deal with it is to be there often and just practice. 

Rather than share a specific technique, I'll just share some general guidelines that I find helpful. 

In general, the further your elbows are from your body, the less strength you have in your arm.   I try to think about using what I call T-Rex arms when defending.  You are stronger against a heavier/stronger opponent when you build a strong frame with your arms rather than trying to push your opponent away.  This is also true when executing techniques like Tony described.  When you trap your opponent's arm with your own, think about pinching your elbow in tight to your side.  It's going to make your control over his arm much tighter and you will be much stronger.

In general, it's easier to move yourself than to move your opponent.  Often, the guy on top has all the leverage and gravity to help them.  If you need your arm to over or underhook his, move yourself to where you can do that, rather than trying to drag his arm to where you need him.  If your hips should be under his, (such as on a sweep or reversal), rather than off to one side, do what you need to do to move your hips to where they need to be, rather than trying to drag him where you want him.  This sounds straightforward, but when grappling, you would be amazed at how many techniques fail because the person is trying to move the other guy rather than simply move himself.

In general, look for or create a dead angle on a reverse.  Basically, just look for the flat side.  In the technique Tony outlined, you're creating an opportunity to reverse the position by controlling the top guy's arm and leg on the same side so he can't "base out."   he's flat on that side.  Someone sitting in seiza is pretty stable, sitting back on the heels with the knees out forming a stable triangle on the mat. If you were to try and push him to either side or straight back, he would easily resist.  But if you push him to a 45 degree angle, he'd fall over pretty easily.  This simple concept of dead angles is at the root of most sweeps or reversals. 

Don't forget to breathe.

Don't forget that on the ground you have arms and legs and a head.  That's five tools that can help you create and control space, including the space you'll need to disengage.

Hopefully this helps.  As I said before, this is such a tough situation, and truthfully, the technique Tony shared is solid, but I would not expect that a 120 lbs female would be able to successfully execute this against a 200 lbs male without some training.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 22, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> I mean, if you think a bite will get him to release the lock, go for it. At that point your pretty screwed either way.


If you don't bite at that moment, your opponent will still break your arm any way. If you know that you will be killed, you want to at least take some of your opponent's fresh and blood with you.

Either Shuai Chiao (SC) or Judo are requirement course for the 4 years Central Police University in Taiwan. Before those police officers can graduate , they will need to compete a wrestling tournament to prove their skill and obtain black belt. Since the SC class didn't teach ground skill but the Judo class did, some SC students used biting in their ground game. When that happen, the chief Judo referee and the chief SC referee had a big argument. They finally went to the head of the university.

- The SC chief referee (my teacher) asked, "Are we teaching our police officer how to survival in the street?"
- The chancellor said, "Yes."
- My teacher then asked, "When a criminal got an arm bar on our police officer, if our police officer just tapped, will that criminal let our police officer go free?"

My teacher won that argument. In that university, the biting was then part of the ground game since then.

Here is an old picture to prove that "biting" was taught to the students. That's exactly the "arm bar" position.


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## marques (Jul 23, 2015)

@Steve, Good observation / correction. Thanks. Too much fluidit in my brain...
Well, at least the other suggestions are (actually) from the correct position.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 23, 2015)

marques said:


> There is one very easy way that I love to show (because it's VERY easy at it seems that no one no (and use) it! Sadly I don't find the video (I don't know the technique name). That is a body choke with legs on the floating ribs. (Not clear, I guess.) He just can't be much bigger than you. If I want to 'win' this is my first choice. 0,5 secondes, no risk.


It sounds like you are talking about Do-jime, which is banned in Judo for some reason.




It's not likely to get great results against anyone who has a strong core or is bigger than you.


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## Hanzou (Jul 23, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you don't bite at that moment, your opponent will still break your arm any way. If you know that you will be killed, you want to at least take some of your opponent's fresh and blood with you.
> 
> Either Shuai Chiao (SC) or Judo are requirement course for the 4 years Central Police University in Taiwan. Before those police officers can graduate , they will need to compete a wrestling tournament to prove their skill and obtain black belt. Since the SC class didn't teach ground skill but the Judo class did, some SC students used biting in their ground game. When that happen, the chief Judo referee and the chief SC referee had a big argument. They finally went to the head of the university.
> 
> ...




Yeah, I have no doubt it was taught, I just have a real issue substituting technical skill with biting.  You're simply not going to be able to bite your way out of a bad situation. Better to learn to avoid getting in that position in the first place.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 23, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, I have no doubt it was taught, I just have a real issue substituting technical skill with biting.  You're simply not going to be able to bite your way out of a bad situation. Better to learn to avoid getting in that position in the first place.


Not "substitute" but "addition". The ground skill and biting doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.

biting + ground skill > ground skill
biting + nothing > nothing

When a Judo guy trains "single leg", he will not try to substitute his Judo by "single leg".

single leg + Judo > judo


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## Hanzou (Jul 23, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Not "substitute" but "addition". The ground skill and biting doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.
> 
> biting + ground skill > ground skill
> biting + nothing > nothing
> ...



There isn't any skill involved in biting. People bite others with no training whatsoever. Those SC guys took the biting route because they lacked the skill to counter the Judo newaza with technique.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 24, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> There isn't any skill involved in biting. People bite others with no training whatsoever. Those SC guys took the biting route because they lacked the skill to counter the Judo newaza with technique.


People also punch and choke each other with no training.

Every human activity can be done with more or less skill. People have gotten amazingly good at just about anything you can imagine. (Ever see videos of championship cup stacking?) I don't see why biting would be any different. Paul Vunak has some interesting ideas on building biting skills.

This is not to say that the SC folks in question necessarily had developed their biting skills to any high degree, but it's certainly possible.


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## Hanzou (Jul 24, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> People also punch and choke each other with no training.



Yeah, but there's a marked difference between skilled and unskilled punching and choking. I don't see a marked difference in biting skill between a "skilled" practicioner, or an "unskilled" practitioner.



> Every human activity can be done with more or less skill. People have gotten amazingly good at just about anything you can imagine. (Ever see videos of championship cup stacking?) I don't see why biting would be any different. Paul Vunak has some interesting ideas on building biting skills.
> 
> This is not to say that the SC folks in question necessarily had developed their biting skills to any high degree, but it's certainly possible.



Yeah, I've seen Paul's biting stuff, and I stand by the notion that you're better off learning the counters to various holds and locks. Not only are they more reliable than biting, but it gives you a higher chance of regaining control of the situation without escalating the violence while in an inferior position.

For example, if you bite my leg while I have you in an arm bar, you got a pretty good chance of me snapping you arm. Probably higher than before you bit me.


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## marques (Jul 25, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It sounds like you are talking about Do-jime, which is banned in Judo for some reason.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you!! 
Now I know the name and know why it is not seen more often (maybe it can damage liver and spleen, ribs...). And yes, that's it!!
With strong people or big people still can work if you can 'to join' your legs and use surprise... Even if it only work with 20% of people is still great. Easy, useful, fast, no risk...

This looks better (on free ribs):





The defense is hold breath (that works for a while) and/or turn the body (when possible). Or to be too fat.


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## Steve (Jul 25, 2015)

marques said:


> Thank you!!
> Now I know the name and know why it is not seen more often (maybe it can damage liver and spleen, ribs...). And yes, that's it!!
> With strong people or big people still can work if you can 'to join' your legs and use surprise... Even if it only work with 20% of people is still great. Easy, useful, fast, no risk...
> 
> ...


Or you can use good technique to force your opponent to open his guard.


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## drop bear (Jul 25, 2015)

Steve said:


> Or you can use good technique to force your opponent to open his guard.



Or sit back on your heels


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## Hanzou (Jul 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Or sit back on your heels



There's no Hip bump sweep in Judo?


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## drop bear (Jul 25, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> There's no Hip bump sweep in Judo?



No idea.


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## Chrisoro (Jul 26, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> There's no Hip bump sweep in Judo?



Officially, there are only 29 ne-waza techniques in Kodokan Judo(just as there are only 67 different official throws) , based on what's in katas such as Katame-no-kata and other techniques found to be usefull in Kano's time. In practice, however, everything that employs Judo's concepts of leverage, balance breaking, maximum effect with minimum power, etc., and which fit within the limits of judo competition rules, _is judo. _ 

If you look in the books of Judo greats such as Kyuzu Mifune, you'll see a bunch of techniques that aren't in the list of the official 29 ne-waza techniques, which just shows that Judo was a living and developing art back then just as it is now. Comparing competition footage from the sixties and today, clearly shows this, and looking at old videos from competitions held under the Kosen-ruleset(highschool judo with an emphasis of groundfighting in order to minimize injury potential), you'll see a lot of techniques that would remind you of what is used in BJJ today.


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## Hanzou (Jul 26, 2015)

Chrisoro said:


> Officially, there are only 29 ne-waza techniques in Kodokan Judo(just as there are only 67 different official throws) , based on what's in katas such as Katame-no-kata and other techniques found to be usefull in Kano's time. In practice, however, everything that employs Judo's concepts of leverage, balance breaking, maximum effect with minimum power, etc., and which fit within the limits of judo competition rules, _is judo. _
> 
> If you look in the books of Judo greats such as Kyuzu Mifune, you'll see a bunch of techniques that aren't in the list of the official 29 ne-waza techniques, which just shows that Judo was a living and developing art back then just as it is now. Comparing competition footage from the sixties and today, clearly shows this, and looking at old videos from competitions held under the Kosen-ruleset(highschool judo with an emphasis of groundfighting in order to minimize injury potential), you'll see a lot of techniques that would remind you of what is used in BJJ today.



So the answer would be no.

Gotcha.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 26, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> So the answer would be no.
> 
> Gotcha.


That's not what he said.

The hip bump sweep is not part of the official list of techniques in Kodokan Judo. *However*, there is *significantly* more to Judo than the official list of techniques.


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## Chrisoro (Jul 29, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> So the answer would be no.
> 
> Gotcha.



1. Kodokan isn´t the only judo authority in the world, not the one who decides how and what is taught everywhere, nor the only one who issues IJF-recognized dan degrees in Judo.
2. Taking my answer above as a "no", is akin to saying with a straight face that anything that has happened in BJJ since the original 40 lesson self defense course held by Carlos and Helio at the original academy, isn´t BJJ. (Yes, I am aware that Maeda taught others as well as the Gracies.)


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## Koshiki (Nov 7, 2015)

I don't really want to re-open this can of worms, but...

As a dedicated stand-up guy with zero ground skills (ok, not zero, but close enough!), as a guy who loves to spout out about how you should _never_ got to the ground, and when there, getting back up is your first priority, as that guy, I've got to say this.

1. I put more time into the ground than my school in general, so that tells you something about how much my school is _not_ ground fighters. However, there is a final portion of our test from Red belt to Black, the most strenuous test. You do all your pretty kata, you do sets of applied bunkai, a majority of them going to the ground, many of them with rudimentary ground defense, you spar for half an hour in continuous two minute rounds with fresh opponents, and THEN. Then, before you get your belt, the biggest black belt there gets on you in mount, and you have to get out from under to get your belt. The fact that a stand up school puts THAT as the coup de gras of the Black belt test shows what an absolutely essential skill getting out of mount is. If you've been mounted and you can't get out, unless your a skilled ground guy, you've lost. It's possibly _the _most dominant position you are likely to encounter, in general terms, aside from a back mount.

2. Biting. I don't discount it, but there are three major objections, no of them to be ignored.

-If you can bite, your opponent can bite, and if biting is your last ditch defense, you're already losing. Don't introduce the concept of biting at that point. There's a good chance he can bite something too, and if he's got control, he can probably bite something worse.

-Pain compliance requires, wait for it, _compliance._ We can quibble about whether a chunk of missing leg hurts more than a broken elbow, but in the end, he's missing some skin, you're missing a functional arm. You're gambling, hard core if you go the "who'll give up first route," and if the other guy's savvy at odds, he knows who has more to lose. Sure, bite if you have to, but don't in any way think it's likely to help you avoid getting your arm broken, neck cranked, or lose consciousness. So let's say it's an armbar, you bite a chunk out, he breaks your arm, you both scream and disengage, and stand back up to continue the fight. He just sacrificed a pawn for your queen. Can you still win? Yeah, but if you weren't doing well with two arms, i don't fancy your chances with one. And even if you do, a broken arm victory is Pyrrhic at best.

-Depending on where you bite, be prepared to lose teeth. I learned at, I don't know, about eight years old that if you're wrestling and a kid decides to chomp on a forearm, you don't pull away. You push in, you grind your forearm into their mouth, and quickly _they_ decide that the _last_ thing they want in their mouth is your arm. If it's a leg, you better hope they don't twitch and bash your teeth in, and your head of the floor.


The takeaway is this. If you're truly training for self defense, and if you want to be able to fight at your preferred range, you need to learn a bit about the other ranges.

Closing distance on a ranged striker is far easier and requires far less knowledge than beating a ranged striker at long distance. If you're not a ranged striker (I'm not) learn enough to survive there for two seconds and get to your preferred range. Or run, they're already six feet away!

Getting space from a close fighter, or taking them down is far easier and requires far less knowledge of infighting than beating an infighter in a clinch. I know. I'm pretty good at fighting from anything in the range from chest to chest to about three feet away, especially if I have contact. break contact and create space, and I'm in trouble. Take me down and I'm in trouble. If you're not an infighter, learn enough about clinching and arm control and restricted striking to survive for two seconds and get to your preferred range.

And finally, this is the one where we seem to run into trouble in the upright fighting world. If you're dealing with a ground fighter, there's a solid chance they can take you down. You need to know what to do when you're down there. Now, you don't need to know enough to win a ground fight against a ground fighter on the ground. To do that, you need to be a better ground fighter, or lucky. (Or insanely vicious, that unfortunately counts for a lot.) But you do need to learn enough legitimate ground fighting to survive for a few seconds and get back on your feet.

You wouldn't substitute biting at flying fists and clawing and groin strikes for a bit of training in ranged striking, because at that range, the ranged striker can do all those things better. You wouldn't substitute those "dirty" tricks for in fighting, 'cause guess what, if you're not an infighter, we can do all those things better when we're locked up close, and we can better position your teeth where we want them.

So you can't expect it to be a viable strategy against a ground fighter. Ground fighting is the range at which the skilled practitioner has the most control, because the ground is a wall severely limiting movement. If you can't control them enough to not get mounted, arm barred, choked, etc, then there's a good chance they can control you enough to not get bitten, or at least to bite you somewhere better.

Now, should you completely discount bites? No. They're a weapon, if a messy one. I wouldn't suggest removing any other pain compliance from your repertoire either. But it is simply _not _going to substitute for a modicum of skill in the various ranges.

Especially when it comes to ground fighting. Ground fighters are fast, but the pace and duration of a ground fight is generally far slower and more drawn out than upright fights. This gives people more time for clarity of thought. Sudden pain from a bite in a strike fight might give you that split second of pause to get in a good chin shot, especially since minds are racing and things are moving at 50 miles an hour, or however fast fists travel. In a ground fight, the better fighter can immobilize things to the point where not much is moving. The amount of mental clarity is higher, and your bite might create a much more rational reaction, in other words, not a spazzy flinch, but a concerted determination to hurt you more, and faster.

----------

I just want to say once more, I'm a stand up guy. I suck at the ground. But really, if you want to have some answer to being mounted, learn a little bit about the ground. You don't need a BJJ black belt, but you do need more than agility, struggling, and biting.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Nov 15, 2015)

Sorry but all the people suggesting. Buck your hips control the torso. Stuff like that, if you try that in a real situation without training you're going to get hurt. You need to go easy and simple. Scratch the eyes, rip the ears, hit the throat, grab the groin, bite whatever you can reach. That will get them off you. Look at these mma guys if someone even touches their eye their on the ground in pain


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 15, 2015)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Sorry but all the people suggesting. Buck your hips control the torso. Stuff like that, if you try that in a real situation without training you're going to get hurt. You need to go easy and simple. Scratch the eyes, rip the ears, hit the throat, grab the groin, bite whatever you can reach. That will get them off you. Look at these mma guys if someone even touches their eye their on the ground in pain


Against an untrained opponent, that might work or might get you hurt worse. Against someone trained that's going to get you knocked out or get your arm broken.

Serious offer here. Come to my gym and try starting out under my mount and I'll give you permission to attack the eyes/ears/groin, bite or what have you. You can do them for real, not just simulate. I'll even be nice and not do any of those things back to you. I'll even start out hitting light so you have a chance to evaluate whether you want to keep trying those things.

Important note - do not try any of those with a training partner who has not agreed in advance to let you try them. If you try eye gouging me and we haven't agreed that's okay, then I will be taking your arm off as a souvenir.

Edit - I don't want to run afoul of the "no challenges" rule. This isn't a challenge to a fight. It's an offer to experiment and see what escapes work from a certain position.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Nov 15, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Against an untrained opponent, that might work or might get you hurt worse. Against someone trained that's going to get you knocked out or get your arm broken.
> 
> Serious offer here. Come to my gym and try starting out under my mount and I'll give you permission to attack the eyes/ears/groin, bite or what have you. You can do them for real, not just simulate. I'll even be nice and not do any of those things back to you. I'll even start out hitting light so you have a chance to evaluate whether you want to keep trying those things.
> 
> Important note - do not try any of those with a training partner who has not agreed in advance to let you try them. If you try eye gouging me and we haven't agreed that's okay, then I will be taking your arm off as a souvenir.





Tony Dismukes said:


> Against an untrained opponent, that might work or might get you hurt worse. Against someone trained that's going to get you knocked out or get your arm broken.
> 
> Serious offer here. Come to my gym and try starting out under my mount and I'll give you permission to attack the eyes/ears/groin, bite or what have you. You can do them for real, not just simulate. I'll even be nice and not do any of those things back to you. I'll even start out hitting light so you have a chance to evaluate whether you want to keep trying those things.
> 
> Important note - do not try any of those with a training partner who has not agreed in advance to let you try them. If you try eye gouging me and we haven't agreed that's okay, then I will be taking your arm off as a souvenir.




Lol do you really think I'm going to pay to go travel to some random guy from the internets gym.

So your telling me that anyone who trains can take getting eye poked. Look at all these mma guys they get a glancing groin shot and they're done on the ground for 5 minutes. Or if anyone even gets a touch on the eyes they're covering their eyes in pain


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 15, 2015)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Lol do you really think I'm going to pay to go travel to some random guy from the internets gym.



Nah, but if you're ever in the area you're welcome to come by. I'll even cover the mat fee for you. If you're not anywhere close, you might be able to find a BJJ instructor in your area who is up for the experiment.



Kenpoguy123 said:


> So your telling me that anyone who trains can take getting eye poked.



Not exactly. I'm telling you that

a) if I'm mounted on you I'm not going to let you eye poke me and
b) if you do manage somehow to eye poke me I am in a position to immediately return the pain three-fold.

This isn't really theoretical for me. I've been doing martial arts for 34 years, groundfighting for 20 years. I've been eye poked and I've been hit in the groin. They both really suck, but they won't make me give up the mounted position. Also, I don't need to see in order to finish someone on the ground. It's all a matter of feel. I can and frequently do tap people out with my eyes closed. I've even armbarred someone with my eyes shut from an accidental eye poke. (The eye poke happened while we were standing, but I was able to get hold of him and complete the takedown by feel.)



Kenpoguy123 said:


> Look at all these mma guys they get a glancing groin shot and they're done on the ground for 5 minutes. Or if anyone even gets a touch on the eyes they're covering their eyes in pain



Like Yuki Nakai? Gerard Gordeau permanently blinded him in one eye with an illegal eye gouge in their fight. Nakai still won the match by submission.

Eye pokes and groin shots are damaging attacks that are illegal in MMA. When a fighter receives one of those shots (accidentally or not)  in the standup portion of the fight, they generally play up the effects so that the ref will notice and give them a little recovery time and they won't have to trade strikes with an opponent while half blind. When the ref doesn't see it, they keep fighting. I've seen fighters win fights while suffering from the effects of groin strikes and eye pokes.

In any case, you'll notice that these groin strikes/eye pokes never happen to the fighter on top of mount.


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## Jenna (Nov 18, 2015)

@Zack Cart, hey there I think your points are well put and all have merit thank you! Do you think at all though that these depend a deal on individual pain thresholds which not only vary from one individual to another and but also vary for any given individual in differing situations.. I mean I do not want him to feel the bite pain only after he is all done with me because he is too full of adrenaline to notice it when he is on top of me.. Does this make sense?  You know you some times only notice fight injuries when you are getting fixed up afterwards yes?  

So that is why I would prefer the simplest mechanical means as I had asked in OP in order to get him off of me so I can get up, Jx


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## drop bear (Nov 18, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Zack Cart, hey there I think your points are well put and all have merit thank you! Do you think at all though that these depend a deal on individual pain thresholds which not only vary from one individual to another and but also vary for any given individual in differing situations.. I mean I do not want him to feel the bite pain only after he is all done with me because he is too full of adrenaline to notice it when he is on top of me.. Does this make sense?  You know you some times only notice fight injuries when you are getting fixed up afterwards yes?
> 
> So that is why I would prefer the simplest mechanical means as I had asked in OP in order to get him off of me so I can get up, Jx



If you know the mechanics. You will be able to street more effectively.

You can't just be under there chewing off an ear with no plan. It has to be working towards the goal of getting up. Getting up has all these structural rules that you have to follow. (Until you know the rules well enough to not follow them but that is a different story)

The last time I got eyegouges from the top it did stuff all. Unless you can secure the head I am not sure how you get much damage. The guy on top with gravity and position could eyegouge you back and generally win.

That was my head after I had been eye gouged. My face was a bit prettied up. But no major damage.


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## Koshiki (Nov 18, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Zack Cart, hey there I think your points are well put and all have merit thank you! Do you think at all though that these depend a deal on individual pain thresholds which not only vary from one individual to another and but also vary for any given individual in differing situations.. I mean I do not want him to feel the bite pain only after he is all done with me because he is too full of adrenaline to notice it when he is on top of me.. Does this make sense?  You know you some times only notice fight injuries when you are getting fixed up afterwards yes?
> 
> So that is why I would prefer the simplest mechanical means as I had asked in OP in order to get him off of me so I can get up, Jx



That was kind of the main point of my post. Biting, scratching, pinching, tickling, gouging, etc. all only work if three things are true:
1. You do them well and in time.
2. The other guys notices in time.
3. He decides to stop whatever he's doing instead of just do it more.

It's not exactly the best plan.

A better plan is to spend a little time learning how to physically move him off of you. If pain-compliance is then an add-on that you train to possibly _assist_ with your already functional technique, then sure. Just don't expect that pinching a little skin on a guy's waist is going to get him off you. And yes, I've seen that taught as amount escape!

So yes, I think it depends entirely on people's various pain thresholds, which is why I advocate against pain compliance as a general strategy.


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## Star Dragon (Nov 19, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Like in the other thread about striking from below, in some defensive situation, if I am on my back mounted by an attacker, whatis the simplest / most effective advice for me I am a non-ground fighter???
> 
> I want up!!  can you tell me how you would suggest? Like I mean keep it simple because I do not really know about nothing.. I do not want to specifically gain a ground advantage nor take years learning ground skills.. I am too lazy and short on time for that.. Just for this one situation how, mechanically, am I to go about getting back to upright most expediently?  What, beyond the obvious, getting him off of me, am I aiming to do and how to do it?? I have little to no advantage against half decent ground fighters or larger opponents who have managed a takedown and mount until I am up.. or.. at the very least suwari or seiza like seated or knees where I regain some mechanical advantage or have some thing to work with.. thank you for your advice Jx



Hello Jenna,

I suggest you build on your existing skill set rather than learning a new one from the ground up.  Your profile tells me that you have been studying Aikido for a couple of decades. Now, Aikido techniques can be readily adapted to ground fighting. I have a pretty interesting book on that, _Aikido Ground Fighting: Grappling and Submission Techniques_ by Walther G. Von Krenner.

http://www.amazon.com/Aikido-Ground...944222&sr=8-1&keywords=aikido+ground+fighting

This would surely give you some ideas. Among general principles and some specific Aikido techniques, it also goes into some variations of the sleeper hold (carotid choke), a very basic and effective grappling technique that you want to familiarize yourself with in any case. Provided you can get it on, you can neutralize even the baddest dude within mere seconds.

I really don't recommend biting a mugger. If you survive an attack just to succumb to the attacker's Hepatitis B or C or what not later, he got you after all. Yes, there may be situations when you have to use whatever there is at your disposal, but other than what I already outlined, it's best to train some simple knee and elbow techniques, head butts and various strikes to the neck, groin and eyes - not least to avoid being taken to the ground in the first place!

Hope this helps.


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## Hanzou (Nov 19, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> That was kind of the main point of my post. Biting, scratching, pinching, tickling, gouging, etc. all only work if three things are true:
> 1. You do them well and in time.
> 2. The other guys notices in time.
> 3. He decides to stop whatever he's doing instead of just do it more.
> ...



As do I.

Frankly, if your goal is to counter the mount without paying for a Bjj class (why you wouldn't want to go and experience Bjj, I have no idea...), I would just go to Youtube and look up Bjj mount escapes. Find one that you think is simple, get a partner, and practice it until you feel confident. Make sure in the latter stages, your partner is giving you as much resistance as possible.

Obviously the best case scenario is actually going to a Bjj gym and learning it from a qualified instructor, but I personally feel that that knowledge of getting someone off of you is too important to ignore.

Especially for women.


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## GiYu - Todd (Nov 19, 2015)

Jenna said:


> So that is why I would prefer the simplest mechanical means as I had asked in OP in order to get him off of me so I can get up, Jx


I just stumbled upon this posting. For the most part, I would write exactly what Tony did in his first response to you.  Control distance, then use legs/hips to thrust them forward off-balance and roll so you come up in their guard. 

A couple other important points would be energy management and structure. 
Energy management:  Often when someone gets on top mount, they can play "wet blanket" and wear you down.  If the attacker is larger/heavier, it doesn't take much effort for them to control your arms and just lay weight on your torso to pin you.  Unless you're in great cardio shape, most people have about a 60 second energy reserve in a panic and flail defensive situation.  So try to control your breathing and wasted moves.  Easier said than done in that situation, but if you can maintain presense of mind, try to preserve some of your energy.
Structure:  As the attacker is attempting to top mount, you can frustrate their efforts by maintaining structure between you and them.  Keep putting elbows/knees in the way.  Your bone structure will sustain their weight easier and cause them to burn their energy reserves in the effort.  No... this won't work against a trained fighter, but for someone untrained it might buy you some extra time, wear them down some, or cause them to attempt a less advantageous position allowing you to break free. 

A last option is to feign a surrender.  This is one of the concepts Gracie Women Empowered uses.  If you simply can't move a much larger attacker from on top of you, then feign surrender BEFORE you have expended all your energy.  If their goal is sexual assault, they can't do that from top mount and will have to move to your guard.  Once you've feigned surrender (actually say "I give up.  Do what you want, just please don't hurt me."), they may briefly let their defenses down.  During their transition to your guard, you attack explosively with punches, elbows, kicks as you move backward to gain distance and get up.  The kicks must be strong enough to push them backward away from you.


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## Koshiki (Nov 19, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> As do I.
> 
> Frankly, if your goal is to counter the mount without paying for a Bjj class (why you wouldn't want to go and experience Bjj, I have no idea...), I would just go to Youtube and look up Bjj mount escapes. Find one that you think is simple, get a partner, and practice it until you feel confident. Make sure in the latter stages, your partner is giving you as much resistance as possible.
> 
> ...



Gotta be careful with the Youtube thing though. It doesn't have to be BJJ, but it _does_ have to be someone who understands competent ground work. No matter what the system, make sure that the escape both works, and places you where you want to be. For example, escapes that place you in guard are going to be less useful to a stand up guy than they will be to a BJJ player.

Watch out for stuff like this:


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 19, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Watch out for stuff like this:


Not the worst I've seen, but pretty bad.


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## Hanzou (Nov 19, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Gotta be careful with the Youtube thing though. It doesn't have to be BJJ, but it _does_ have to be someone who understands competent ground work. No matter what the system, make sure that the escape both works, and places you where you want to be. For example, escapes that place you in guard are going to be less useful to a stand up guy than they will be to a BJJ player.
> 
> Watch out for stuff like this:



Stuff like that is why I said stick to the Bjj videos. I recommend anything from Grapplearts.com, Connection Rio, Submissions 101, Greg Jackson's vids, anything from the various Gracie schools, etc. There's some really good instructional stuff on the web that's free.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 19, 2015)

The ground skill used in competition can be more realistic (at 0.30).





[/QUOTE]


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## Jenna (Nov 21, 2015)

@Star Dragon, book looks interesting thank you.  Thing is, in all of my time I had never trained for fighting on my back and worse, my own hubris told me I would not need to.  Fingers crossed I have not and will not though came a little close for comfort a time back hence my original question to which I have had some v helpful ideas, Jxx

@GiYu - Todd, I like these ideas.. from here I can discern your experience so it is appreciated what you wrote, thank you! Conservation of energy, I think that is an excellent point, I rely so much on technique as strength can be limited for me, and but your feign surrender, I like a lot at least to provide some kind of opening to use what has been listed above.  Is good! thank you again, Jxxx


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## Old Judoka (Dec 11, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Well the days of getting away with a few basic techniques is slowly coming to an end. At least here in the states. I'm starting to see more grappling and MMA schools than any other form of martial art in many U.S. cities, and more meatheads opening grappling garages where they're learning Bjj and CACC from videos.
> 
> That just means that there's an ever increasing chance of running into someone with solid grappling skills. Unless you're drilling on a consistent basis, basic techniques might not be enough.



Agree with you TOTALLY. Just in my town of about 90,000, there are about 7 or 8 places where you can go that claim they'll teach you MMA and BJJ. Four of them are in kinda bad area's of town. A lot of wannabes hanging around some of these places. Only two of them are run by stand up, known, credentialed guys. I'm worried enough about it that after decades away from Judo, I'm back at a club. I'm bringing my daughters with me, so that I can work with them there and away from the Dojo. Jenna, the days where you can avoid ground fighting have been over for a while and it's only going to get more so. I think you should consider at least a year of Judo, BJJ, Japanese Ju Jitsu, Shuai Chiao or some other grappling system.


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## Jenna (Dec 14, 2015)

Old Judoka said:


> Jenna, the days where you can avoid ground fighting have been over for a while and it's only going to get more so. I think you should consider at least a year of Judo, BJJ, Japanese Ju Jitsu, Shuai Chiao or some other grappling system.


Understand your points there friend, thank you  wonder why you say this above: days of avoiding ground fighting have been over a while?? I find I am doing not so bad without.. just looking to close off my weaker areas as a stand-up fighter.. would not have it in me to retrain a whole other art  thank you Jx


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## Old Judoka (Dec 14, 2015)

The main thrust of my point is I'm agreeing with Hanzou. I think that since  everyone nowadays is trying to fight like an MMA fighter, statistically, one is going to run into the chance of facing ground work if they fight very much. In my own case, I'm not trying turn my daughters into mini-Rousey's, I just want them to have a small arsenal of throws they can use in combinations, in case the first throw attempt fails, they still can probably get someone on the ground and run like hell. I want them also to be able to do some ground work if they have to. Judo isn't just all arm bars, it has a nifty array of chokes as well. We are fortunate enough that my girls are friends with a girl (yes, a girl) who is on the wrestling team.  They can already shoot and defend against shoots. I also want them to learn a striking art, partially using striking as a way to setup for throws. I'm leaning toward Wing Chun or JKD, since there are schools for both with a reasonable distance of me. Jenna, I'd appreciate your input with regard to that. Anyhow, I hope you have a great day!


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## Hanzou (Dec 14, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Understand your points there friend, thank you  wonder why you say this above: days of avoiding ground fighting have been over a while?? I find I am doing not so bad without.. just looking to close off my weaker areas as a stand-up fighter.. would not have it in me to retrain a whole other art  thank you Jx



Honestly, if you're looking to "close off a weaker area", then you really should just take Bjj for 6-12 months. Learning that range of fighting is really worth your time.

I've seen plenty of examples of "expert" stand up fighters ending up on the ground, and looking like complete buffoons. Even someone with a few months training would be better off than they were.


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## drop bear (Dec 14, 2015)

I still think mma would be a bit more applicable for strikers to integrate ground work.  Plus the whole getting back up emphasis.


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## Jenna (Dec 15, 2015)

Old Judoka said:


> The main thrust of my point is I'm agreeing with Hanzou. I think that since  everyone nowadays is trying to fight like an MMA fighter, statistically, one is going to run into the chance of facing ground work if they fight very much. In my own case, I'm not trying turn my daughters into mini-Rousey's, I just want them to have a small arsenal of throws they can use in combinations, in case the first throw attempt fails, they still can probably get someone on the ground and run like hell. I want them also to be able to do some ground work if they have to. Judo isn't just all arm bars, it has a nifty array of chokes as well. We are fortunate enough that my girls are friends with a girl (yes, a girl) who is on the wrestling team.  They can already shoot and defend against shoots. I also want them to learn a striking art, partially using striking as a way to setup for throws. I'm leaning toward Wing Chun or JKD, since there are schools for both with a reasonable distance of me. Jenna, I'd appreciate your input with regard to that. Anyhow, I hope you have a great day!


It is best parenting that you are teaching your daughters a thing or two about this x.. and but why WC or JKD and not your Judo? you find Judo is not sufficient? Do you also train multiple arts? I am Aikido and so probably not best to dispense advice.. it has held me up ok over the time though I had concerns over inadvertently getting caught and ending up like a beetle wriggling upside down on my back so hence the earlier questions about mechanical righting.. good answers, I experiment with what was explained here and have a way that functions for emergencies  let us know how your girls get along if you take them to either wing chun or jeet kune do, I would be interested. Thank you


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## Old Judoka (Dec 15, 2015)

Jenna said:


> It is best parenting that you are teaching your daughters a thing or two about this x.. and but why WC or JKD and not your Judo? you find Judo is not sufficient? Do you also train multiple arts? I am Aikido and so probably not best to dispense advice.. it has held me up ok over the time though I had concerns over inadvertently getting caught and ending up like a beetle wriggling upside down on my back so hence the earlier questions about mechanical righting.. good answers, I experiment with what was explained here and have a way that functions for emergencies  let us know how your girls get along if you take them to either wing chun or jeet kune do, I would be interested. Thank you


I am working with them on judo, but being older and out of touch with it so long, I'm experiencing my own sort of learning curve. Some of the muscle memory is there, but I have to stretch a lot longer. I'm basically putting together about 7 or 8 throws for them that they can use in combinations if the first throw attempt fails. I'm looking at striking as a means of entry for throws. In the old old judo days (older than me even), I understand that they used to use atemi-waza with some throws for entry. A nice concept for using Judo for self defense. It almost makes me wish I had been exposed to Judo even earlier than I was. When I was taking it, there were only 40 throws.


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## Langenschwert (Dec 15, 2015)

Judo is a great base for SD, but if your girls are smaller it could get them in trouble. The last thing a smaller female wants is to tie up with a larger aggressor. The could just get pancaked. The striking doesn't need to be sophisticated pugilism, it needs to get them into a position where they can run away. Attempting to throw someone who may outweigh you by 100 lbs is seldom a good idea. In the unlikely event the throw is successful, you'll go down in a heap with the opponent, so you'll be outweighed AND on the ground. Risky on so many levels. Sure, I incorporate takedowns in my SD training, but I'm just shy of 200 lbs, train Judo twice a week, combatives once a week, and medieval wrestling once a week. Even then I'd be reluctant to tie up with someone if I could just feed them strikes instead and run away.


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## Old Judoka (Dec 16, 2015)

Langenschwert said:


> Judo is a great base for SD, but if your girls are smaller it could get them in trouble. The last thing a smaller female wants is to tie up with a larger aggressor. The could just get pancaked. The striking doesn't need to be sophisticated pugilism, it needs to get them into a position where they can run away. Attempting to throw someone who may outweigh you by 100 lbs is seldom a good idea. In the unlikely event the throw is successful, you'll go down in a heap with the opponent, so you'll be outweighed AND on the ground. Risky on so many levels. Sure, I incorporate takedowns in my SD training, but I'm just shy of 200 lbs, train Judo twice a week, combatives once a week, and medieval wrestling once a week. Even then I'd be reluctant to tie up with someone if I could just feed them strikes instead and run away.


This is why I'd like to get them into a striking art as well. As far as throwing, we are staying away from hand and hip techniques, unless they want to learn them later. Two techniques we drill heavily on are kouchi and ouchi-gari and they perform them on me (200 lbs.). I'm being pretty selective with what I'm teaching them.  I want strikes if they are on the outside, but if the aggressor has closed the gap or gotten hands on them, then strikes as a means for entry of a take down. I'm not looking for them to be Olympic Judoists, or to go toe-to-toe with anyone. Strike and run, or strike, take down and run. They are going to go to the mat with me as well. Since a lot of altercations go to the ground. I feel like they should know how to handle the ground, get loose and get away.


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## Skullpunch (Dec 16, 2015)

If you don't know how to fight on the ground and your attacker does you're not getting out from underneath that person unless you manage to weasel a knife out of your pocket and into his/her ribs.  That's not a knock against striking arts or aikido, it's just how physics and leverage work.  Larpy idealism vs. physics is a battle that physics always wins.  Also, if I gain full mount on someone in the first place it means I'm probably better than that person (unless he fell on a banana peel) and will be very difficult to escape from even if he knows what he's doing.  And this is if I'm talking about male vs. male.  You specified "him" in your post so male vs. female...let's put it this way, Hillary Williams is a bjj world champion in the female division and even she isn't fully confident that she could handle herself with an especially strong male on top of her.  At her best she still got tapped by male purple belts, and she was the world's highest level black belt at one point in time.

Even biting and eye gouging is far from a sure thing.  If I take someone down, I'm a grappler and my opponent is not, and he tries to bite and eye gouge me, I'm doing it right back and since I have 100% of the control and 100% of the leverage and he has 0% of both, I can put myself in a position to rip his eyes out at will while the best he can do is flail at vulnerable areas and hope to get lucky.  Anyone who says "I'd just bite/eye gouge my way out of mount if a bjj guy/wrestler/judoka took me down" has a woefully false sense of security.  I mean, if it's all they got then yeah it makes sense to use it but the assumption that it's going to be some silver bullet self-defense tactic that eliminates grappling from being a factor in a real fight is dangerously misguided.

If you want practical advice that doesn't fill your head with ******** that will get you killed, raped, maimed, robbed, etc. then get a concealable weapon and learn how to use it.


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## Old Judoka (Dec 16, 2015)

Skullpunch said:


> If you don't know how to fight on the ground and your attacker does you're not getting out from underneath that person unless you manage to weasel a knife out of your pocket and into his/her ribs.  That's not a knock against striking arts or aikido, it's just how physics and leverage work.  Larpy idealism vs. physics is a battle that physics always wins.  Also, if I gain full mount on someone in the first place it means I'm probably better than that person (unless he fell on a banana peel) and will be very difficult to escape from even if he knows what he's doing.  And this is if I'm talking about male vs. male.  You specified "him" in your post so male vs. female...let's put it this way, Hillary Williams is a bjj world champion in the female division and even she isn't fully confident that she could handle herself with an especially strong male on top of her.  At her best she still got tapped by male purple belts, and she was the world's highest level black belt at one point in time.
> 
> Even biting and eye gouging is far from a sure thing.  If I take someone down, I'm a grappler and my opponent is not, and he tries to bite and eye gouge me, I'm doing it right back and since I have 100% of the control and 100% of the leverage and he has 0% of both, I can put myself in a position to rip his eyes out at will while the best he can do is flail at vulnerable areas and hope to get lucky.  Anyone who says "I'd just bite/eye gouge my way out of mount if a bjj guy/wrestler/judoka took me down" has a woefully false sense of security.  I mean, if it's all they got then yeah it makes sense to use it but the assumption that it's going to be some silver bullet self-defense tactic that eliminates grappling from being a factor in a real fight is dangerously misguided.
> 
> If you want practical advice that doesn't fill your head with ******** that will get you killed, raped, maimed, robbed, etc. then get a concealable weapon and learn how to use it.



Hey Skullpunch, cool name. I like this thread because everyone makes good points. There's always someone bigger, faster, stronger, leaner and meaner. That being said, I'd no doubt feel the most reassured if I could send my girls to the high school with concealed weapons, but we know how that would turn out. Since I can't do that, all I can give them is some guidance, caution them about situational awareness, give them some techniques that may get them out of a life threatening jam, Which is better than saying; "well, if some stronger guy gets them in a full mount, there's nothing they can do anyway, so we better not waste our time.....". I want them to have a fighting chance, with emphasis on the fighting. I've never seen a full mount that occurs in one second or less. There's a time window, as for myself if someone is within seconds of having me in a full mount and I have my arms around their waist and my head between their navel and their nips, and it's either chew my way to their back bone or die, guess what I'm going to do....if I do die, then a whole bunch of their skin is going to have my salivary DNA all over it when they have to go to the hospital. Just sayin'.


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## Jenna (Dec 17, 2015)

@Skullpunch, hello to you I understand your advice and you have my gratitude that you took time to give it.. It is sound advice I would not present any arguments against it. Though for me personally and that is not to speak for every one at all.. for me personally I want some thing very specific is why I asked.. I want to get back up, that is all, I will not require advice from that point.. just to get up or even to seiza, is that possible from there and how.. I have tried what was suggested and have found it adequate to achievce this which I would not have known prior  Personally I do not wish to inflict injury upon the person at this point if it is possible I can get out and get up.. you are saying this is not possible with a trained fighter already I am mounted or in his guard, I would not argue, just specifically in my situation they are not trained like that here, I am quite certain of this.. there is just a different attitude towards women that I am one or two times uncomfortably aware of is all.. Still, your advice is good, just to get up though not weapons.. for me personally speaking that is all  thank you x


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## Paul_D (Dec 17, 2015)

Skullpunch said:


> At her best she still got tapped by male purple belts, and she was the world's highest level black belt at one point in time.


I am not sure how this is relevant to women being attacked by men?  Do many rapists train BJJ to purple belt in order to be able to rape women who may be trained to fight on the ground?



Skullpunch said:


> If you want practical advice ......then get a concealable weapon and learn how to use it.


Not everyone  lives in a country where the carrying of concealed weapons is legal.  It is therefore not "practical" advice, instead it is illegal, dangerous,and highly irresponsible advice.  By all means present it as your "opinion", which is what it is, but please don't present it is "practical".


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## Skullpunch (Dec 17, 2015)

Old Judoka said:


> Hey Skullpunch, cool name. I like this thread because everyone makes good points. There's always someone bigger, faster, stronger, leaner and meaner. That being said, I'd no doubt feel the most reassured if I could send my girls to the high school with concealed weapons, but we know how that would turn out. Since I can't do that, all I can give them is some guidance, caution them about situational awareness, give them some techniques that may get them out of a life threatening jam, Which is better than saying; "well, if some stronger guy gets them in a full mount, there's nothing they can do anyway, so we better not waste our time.....". I want them to have a fighting chance, with emphasis on the fighting. I've never seen a full mount that occurs in one second or less. There's a time window, as for myself if someone is within seconds of having me in a full mount and I have my arms around their waist and my head between their navel and their nips, and it's either chew my way to their back bone or die, guess what I'm going to do....if I do die, then a whole bunch of their skin is going to have my salivary DNA all over it when they have to go to the hospital. Just sayin'.



Just to clarify, I am not by any means denouncing hand to hand self defense training for women - or anyone for that matter.  I think it's awesome and a highly valuable skill to have.  But there's an element of realism that needs to be injected into these discussions that a lot of people aren't comfortable with.  This doesn't mean you just accept that there is nothing you can do against a grappler, but keep your expectations realistic.  Train as much as you can and be prepared to do what you can but understand that brute strength and various forms of wrestling/grappling have been two of the most dominant forces in hand to hand combat since the beginning of humanity.  How could that be if either one of them were so insanely easy to overcome that all you need is an escape someone told you about on the internet that you drill from time to time and a thought to yourself that you can just bite your way out of whatever?

As for your daughters, and this goes for pretty much anyone who's in a situation where weapons are not allowed, the next best thing (or perhaps the best thing up there with having a weapon) is strength in numbers.  A lone woman walking home alone at night - or hanging out by herself after class or wherever - appears to be an easy target.  A group of 4 or 5 (or more), where 2 (or more) of them know how to handle themselves and carry themselves accordingly, is far less likely to even be looked at with predatory eyes.  During my high school years I was a loner who trained a lot and thought I was a badass, and maybe compared to a lone untrained teenager I was, but compared to a group I was weak as fukk even if I was delusional enough to tell myself otherwise at the time.



Paul_D said:


> I am not sure how this is relevant to women being attacked by men?  Do many rapists train BJJ to purple belt in order to be able to rape women who may be trained to fight on the ground?



No but most women also aren't Hilary Williams.  The difference between an average purple belt and a world champion black belt is like the difference between an average 3 stripe white belt and an average black belt.  The relevance is by spelling out just how massive of a technical advantage a woman - on average - is going to need to overcome a male attacker with her bare hands.  This is underestimated by many people in these discussions because it's a reality that many people are not comfortable with accepting.

On your point about weapons, obviously I wouldn't suggest this to someone who lives in a country where it's going to get them beheaded or imprisoned lmao.  Regarding this, refer to my discussion with old judoka.


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## Skullpunch (Dec 17, 2015)

Edit:  Double Post


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## Paul_D (Dec 17, 2015)

Skullpunch said:


> No but most women also aren't Hilary Williams. The difference between an average purple belt and a world champion black belt is like the difference between an average 3 stripe white belt and an average black belt. The relevance is by spelling out just how massive of a technical advantage a woman - on average - is going to need to overcome a male attacker with her bare hands.


I am not sure I am understanding you correctly.

You state women, on average, need a massive technical advantage to fight off a male attacker.  Yet point out that Hillary Williams, who is a World Champion Black Belt, and has a huge technical advantage over male purple belts, doesn't have enough skill to fight them off.


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## Old Judoka (Dec 17, 2015)

Skullpunch said:


> Just to clarify, I am not by any means denouncing hand to hand self defense training for women - or anyone for that matter.  I think it's awesome and a highly valuable skill to have.  But there's an element of realism that needs to be injected into these discussions that a lot of people aren't comfortable with.  This doesn't mean you just accept that there is nothing you can do against a grappler, but keep your expectations realistic.  Train as much as you can and be prepared to do what you can but understand that brute strength and various forms of wrestling/grappling have been two of the most dominant forces in hand to hand combat since the beginning of humanity.  How could that be if either one of them were so insanely easy to overcome that all you need is an escape someone told you about on the internet that you drill from time to time and a thought to yourself that you can just bite your way out of whatever?
> 
> As for your daughters, and this goes for pretty much anyone who's in a situation where weapons are not allowed, the next best thing (or perhaps the best thing up there with having a weapon) is strength in numbers.  A lone woman walking home alone at night - or hanging out by herself after class or wherever - appears to be an easy target.  A group of 4 or 5 (or more), where 2 (or more) of them know how to handle themselves and carry themselves accordingly, is far less likely to even be looked at with predatory eyes.  During my high school years I was a loner who trained a lot and thought I was a badass, and maybe compared to a lone untrained teenager I was, but compared to a group I was weak as fukk even if I was delusional enough to tell myself otherwise at the time.
> 
> ...



I like this discussion, because this definitely needs addressed. Realistically, my daughters are only 15 months apart in age, they both are in the same extra curricular activities, so they are together nearly all the time. If I can get them to some decent competency, I believe I won't have to be quite so concerned as I am at this point. They are going to get plenty of practice throwing my big old a$$ around, learn a few submissions, a few chokes, and hopefully a bit of atemi, or some kind of striking. Will they be like Ronda Rousey during her Olympic heyday or Tammy Hostetler from back in my day? No, but they won't be sitting ducks either.


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## Skullpunch (Dec 17, 2015)

Paul_D said:


> I am not sure I am understanding you correctly.
> 
> You state women, on average, need a massive technical advantage to fight off a male attacker.  Yet point out that Hillary Williams, who is a World Champion Black Belt, and has a huge technical advantage over male purple belts, doesn't have enough skill to fight them off.



When her technical advantage > a male's strength advantage, she has a >50% chance of winning.  When her technical advantage < a male's strength advantage, she has a <50% chance of winning.  Make sense?


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## Paul_D (Dec 18, 2015)

Skullpunch said:


> When her technical advantage > a male's strength advantage, she has a >50% chance of winning.  When her technical advantage < a male's strength advantage, she has a <50% chance of winning.  Make sense?


That's much clearer thanks.

What data are you using to base your percentages on, can you post a link?


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## Skullpunch (Dec 18, 2015)

Paul_D said:


> That's much clearer thanks.
> 
> What data are you using to base your percentages on, can you post a link?



The percentages are an educated guess based on discussions with her over at the sherdog f12 forum.  It's also the conclusion I've drawn in general terms  through training with a range of partners who are weaker/stronger/more technical/less technical than myself.  I can usually beat a guy who's better than me if he/she is a LOT weaker, and vice versa.  The more the gap in technique closes, the more of a difference strength makes.


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## Paul_D (Dec 18, 2015)

Skullpunch said:


> The percentages are an educated guess based on discussions with her over at the sherdog f12 forum.  It's also the conclusion I've drawn in general terms  through training with a range of partners who are weaker/stronger/more technical/less technical than myself.  I can usually beat a guy who's better than me if he/she is a LOT weaker, and vice versa.  The more the gap in technique closes, the more of a difference strength makes.


Ok, thanks.


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## lklawson (Dec 18, 2015)

Paul_D said:


> I am not sure how this is relevant to women being attacked by men?  Do many rapists train BJJ to purple belt in order to be able to rape women who may be trained to fight on the ground?


No.  But it has happened.  Made a *HUGE* stink in the BJJ community too.  To say that the BJJ community was "outraged" would be an understatement.

To be honest, ground-fighting/grappling skills are more popular than ever in living memory and, therefore, more trained than ever.  The likelihood of an attacker having some training in newaza keeps going up and up.  Statistically speaking, I'd guess that the percentage of attackers trained in any martial art at all would be small, but of those, the fraction which trains in some form of ground-grappling is increasing.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Old Judoka (Dec 19, 2015)

One thing does surprise me though, with the Rousey Phenomenon, I'm surprised that Judo Dojo's didn't explode with new membership.


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## drop bear (Dec 19, 2015)

Old Judoka said:


> One thing does surprise me though, with the Rousey Phenomenon, I'm surprised that Judo Dojo's didn't explode with new membership.



There is this awkward issue with judo trying to separate itself from mma.

What is judo's problem with mixed martial arts?


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## Old Judoka (Dec 20, 2015)

So...if a boxer goes to a boxing match or a Taekwondo guy goes to a Taekwondo tournament, or a Judoka goes to a Judo tournament that's not ok? They all are still separate sports with separate regulating bodies. Judo is still its own Olympic sport. If you go into the Olympic Games slinging MMA in a Judo championship, you're going to get shown the door. Everything didn't just become all MMA. What's MMA's problem with all the other sports?


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## drop bear (Dec 20, 2015)

Old Judoka said:


> So...if a boxer goes to a boxing match or a Taekwondo guy goes to a Taekwondo tournament, or a Judoka goes to a Judo tournament that's not ok? They all are still separate sports with separate regulating bodies. Judo is still its own Olympic sport. If you go into the Olympic Games slinging MMA in a Judo championship, you're going to get shown the door. Everything didn't just become all MMA. What's MMA's problem with all the other sports?



You can't compete in mma and still judo. You get kicked out. It is the only time I have heard of any organisation doing that.


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## Steve (Dec 20, 2015)

Old Judoka said:


> What's MMA's problem with all the other sports?


I think that's backwards.


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## Langenschwert (Dec 20, 2015)

Old Judoka said:


> the days where you can avoid ground fighting have been over for a while and it's only going to get more so. I think you should consider at least a year of Judo, BJJ, Japanese Ju Jitsu, Shuai Chiao or some other grappling system.



They've been over for well, forever. It was only for what, the 19th and 20th century that people who expected to have to fight didn't have grappling as a core part of their training. HS 3227a (circa 1389) states "all fencing comes from wrestling".

The only way to beat a grappler is to be able to grapple well enough yourself. By which I mean well enough that it's not worth it to your opponent to continue the engagement. If a non-grappler gets taken down and the wrestler decides to pursue the engagement on the ground, then that's where it's going to end, barring outside intervention.

Besides all that, wrasslin' is fun! Why wouldn't you take a year and have a bucketload of fun at a BJJ/Judo/Catch school? You'll become much tougher and way less scared of ending up on the ground.


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## lklawson (Dec 21, 2015)

Langenschwert said:


> They've been over for well, forever. It was only for what, the 19th and 20th century that people who expected to have to fight didn't have grappling as a core part of their training.


Actual *real* professional and amateur wresting was popular in the 19th and early 20th Centuries.  Used to be a common part of the early equivalent of gymnastics and health clubs.  Everybody did Catch wrestling, even amateur boxers and regular old health nuts.  Wrestling manuals were nearly as common as boxing manuals.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Old Judoka (Dec 21, 2015)

Wouldn't know about getting kicked out of anything. I'm 56 years old, I'm not going to start doing MMA at this junction of my life. I'm doing good to be able to do randori with college kids which is my current situation. As I've said in many posts now, I'm looking for enough striking for my daughters for Selfdefence. So in the end they will have a bit of MMA background. If they decide they want to be Holly Holm, I'm sure they will move in that direction.


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## FriedRice (Jan 13, 2016)

Jenna said:


> I do not want to specifically gain a ground advantage nor take years learning ground skills.. I am too lazy and short on time for that.. Just for this one situation how, mechanically, am I to go about getting back to upright most expediently?



Many to a hell of a lot of BJJ-only guys, all the way up to Black Belts, wouldn't be able to escape or submit a trained striker while they're throwing full punches at them, because they don't train full MMA....and their face have never really been tested with full fists, knees, etc.    There's a reason why many people train only BJJ or train only Muay Thai.....they're _USUALLY_ not comfortable with the other major aspect, of fighting. It's quite optimistic to think that you can figure this out from merely reading text postings. It takes a lot to be able to escape or sweep someone who has you in full mount. Much worse if it's a much stronger man while he's raining punches to your face. There are no shortcuts to this.


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## Hanzou (Jan 13, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Many to a hell of a lot of BJJ-only guys, all the way up to Black Belts, wouldn't be able to escape or submit a trained striker while they're throwing full punches at them, because they don't train full MMA....and their face have never really been tested with full fists, knees, etc.    There's a reason why many people train only BJJ or train only Muay Thai.....they're _USUALLY_ not comfortable with the other major aspect, of fighting. It's quite optimistic to think that you can figure this out from merely reading text postings. It takes a lot to be able to escape or sweep someone who has you in full mount. Much worse if it's a much stronger man while he's raining punches to your face. There are no shortcuts to this.



Right on the money. You can watch MMA bouts and see just how hard it is to counter someone in full mount raining blows down on you. This is why Guard retention and learning escapes are so important. You really need to do everything in your power to prevent the full mount (or side mount) from happening.


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## drop bear (Jan 13, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Right on the money. You can watch MMA bouts and see just how hard it is to counter someone in full mount raining blows down on you. This is why Guard retention and learning escapes are so important. You really need to do everything in your power to prevent the full mount (or side mount) from happening.



Most people shouldn't be comfortable in guard either. 

Unless you are kron


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## Hanzou (Jan 13, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Most people shouldn't be comfortable in guard either.
> 
> Unless you are kron



Agreed. However, if you're stuck on your back with someone on top of you, the Guard is where you want to be.

Of course if you're as skilled as Kron Gracie, you can purposely put people in closed guard and destroy them.

Must be nice....


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## Hurly Burly (Jan 13, 2016)

Jenna said:


> This is exactly what I was wanting thank you so much Tony for taking time to lay this out step by step! It is clear enough I can even visualise though it would need a dose of practice to get this even half right.. Yes if he is to grapevine my legs I imagine he is versed at ground fighting and it is beyond what I am asking here.. just this simple escape sounds very useful to me, great help.. thank you! you have got me interested in finding more out, Jxxx


Learn to sprawl. Train with a wrestler for a few weeks.


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## Hurly Burly (Jan 13, 2016)

Hurly Burly said:


> Learn to sprawl. Train with a wrestler for a few weeks.


You might also learn the snapdown series. You can easily adapt it to complement your stand up


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