# Diferences in karate



## Manny (Mar 16, 2010)

What are the diferences amoung Shoto Kan, Shito Ryu and Goju Ryu?

Manny


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## dancingalone (Mar 16, 2010)

I don't really think it's accurate since the type karate is so dependent on the instructor instead of style, but I'll play the game.

These are obviously generalities, so don't take this as a criticism if one of them is your chosen style.

Shotokan:  plenty of kata, deep stances, extreme focus on hip turn, very linear and forceful, strong tournament component  

Shito-ryu:  lots of kata (founder combined kata from Shuri, Tomari, and Naha traditions), quite graceful and stylistic looking, focus on speed in kumite

Goju-ryu:  fewer kata than either Shotokan or Shito-ryu, heavy emphasis on body conditioning and vestiges of Chinese Iron Body/Vest training remain in the system, close range system with perhaps more breathing subtleties than the other two if you have good instruction.


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## Manny (Mar 16, 2010)

Somethings I like about japanese karate is it's speed,focus and power. Last year I went to a national torunament from Okinawa Dojo's here in my city and I really like the performing of the katas, very graceful and powerful at the same time and offcourse the kunites were very nice, very traditional.

I want to know something about the main four styles of Karate (Shoto Kan, Shito Ryo, Goju Ryu nad Wado Ryu).

Manny


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## dancingalone (Mar 16, 2010)

You also have to keep in mind that most of the karate styles have fragmented in various ryu-ha and/or associations.  One of the so-called Shotokan styles don't look anything at all like the others because their founder chose to emphasis speed and natural movement.  And don't even let me get started on goju-ryu kata and how many different versions there are, depending on which line, Meibuken, Jundokan, Shoreikan, Goju-kai, whatever, you follow.

I'm really not focused so much on these arbitrary style labels these days.  They're only useful to set a certain expectation in one's mind (and that's assuming one is educated enough to have these dogmatic expectations in the first place) about the karate you expect to see, but then the fulfillment upon seeing the instructor and his students is another matter.  I've seen 'Goju-ryu' vids on Youtube that are anything but Go and Ju....


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## dancingalone (Mar 16, 2010)

Manny said:


> Somethings I like about *japanese* karate is it's speed,focus and power.



Yeah, many would state the Japanese karate styles are Shotokan, Goju-ryu, Shito-ryu, and Wado-ryu.  Depending on whom you ask, some in Shito-ryu actually dislike being classified as "Japanese".  They sometimes proudly state they are Okinawan instead since Mabuni Kenwa was Okinawan.  And of course Goju-kai and its derivates are Japanese, but arguably the primary ryu-ha are all Okinawan in lineage, and none of them would probably describe their strong suit to be speed.

I guess this is yet another example of the karate world being anything but homogeneous.  And I like it that way.


Japanese:  Shotokan, Goju-kai, Shito-ryu, Wado-ryu
Okinawan:  Goju-ryu, Shito-ryu (hee-hee), Shorin-ryu, Isshin-ryu
American:  Isshin-ryu (another hee-hee)


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## seasoned (Mar 16, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I don't really think it's accurate since the type karate is so dependent on the instructor instead of style, but I'll play the game.
> 
> These are obviously generalities, so don't take this as a criticism if one of them is your chosen style.
> 
> ...



Very good points. The ideal GoJu dojo is one that is kata based with minimal sparring, as apposed to one that is sparring centered with minimal kata. Once too much sparring gets involved they all kinda look the same.


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## Manny (Mar 16, 2010)

Sorry because my ignorance about the many Ryus in Karate, in my city most of the karate dojo's are Shotokan or something alike, one strong organizatios is Okinawa Karate Do of master Antonio marquez Lopez (a pioneer of the karate do in Mexico) but don't know if the style or Ryu of the Okinawa karate Do is Shito Ryu or Shoto Kan.

Manny


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## dancingalone (Mar 16, 2010)

No reason to apologize, Manny.  We're all here to have some fun and occasionally learn something.  Anyway, keep asking your questions.  It would be nice to build up more discussion here in the karate forum.


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## Omar B (Mar 16, 2010)

Don't put too much into it, Karate is Karate, the different styles are just variances on what Karate is as filtered through the grand master's value judgments.  One can look on each style and plainly discern what it's founder though was most important to learn but it's still all similar enough that you can catch on in another environment quite easily.


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## dancingalone (Mar 16, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Don't put too much into it, Karate is Karate, the different styles are just variances on what Karate is as filtered through the grand master's value judgments.  One can look on each style and plainly discern what it's founder though was most important to learn *but it's still all similar enough that you can catch on in another environment quite easily.*



I'll disagree with all due respect.  Consider the pan gai noon/Uechi styles vs. standard JKA karate.  It's almost night and day difference in both objectives and technique.

Even a cursory review of the kata Tensho across USA Goju vs Okinawan Goju vs. Kyokushin reveals some fundamental differences in tensioning and rooting and breathing.  I don't think they are trivial either. 

It's true that if you stay within the same "style" the chances of similarity are greater, but even then there's no guarantee.


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 16, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I don't really think it's accurate since the type karate is so dependent on the instructor instead of style, but I'll play the game.
> 
> 
> Shotokan:  plenty of kata, deep stances, extreme focus on hip turn, very linear and forceful, strong tournament component



I practice Moo Duk Kwan TKD, which derives the majority of its heritage from Shotokan.  I agree with dancingalone on his take on it.  We are extremely focused on waist snap/hip turn, as well as stances and forms.  Although my association is not very tournament heavy, we do compete on the limited east coast traditional circuit (not many of them left anymore, since all the old Koreans are either retired or dead).

I have limited exposure to other Japanese ryus, but I have trained with some Isshin-ryu and Shorei Ryu people (but those are Okinawan, and not part of the OP).


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## Omar B (Mar 16, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I'll disagree with all due respect.  Consider the pan gai noon/Uechi styles vs. standard JKA karate.  It's almost night and day difference in both objectives and technique.
> Even a cursory review of the kata Tensho across USA Goju vs Okinawan Goju vs. Kyokushin reveals some fundamental differences in tensioning and rooting and breathing.  I don't think they are trivial either.
> It's true that if you stay within the same "style" the chances of similarity are greater, but even then there's no guarantee.



I hear what you are saying but I do disagree.  As I said, differences are there and they are more due to the founder's value judgments as to what is important and what he wishes to focus on.  Some styles are kata heavy, some not, some have a lot of body hardening, some don't.  But there's no escaping that karate is karate and at the end of the day there's a recognizable core skillset that all styles have.  Nobody's trained in karate ever going to look some other style and mistake it for karate.

Cars have 4 wheels, and we rocognize them as cars.  If we saw a vehicle with more or less wheels we would recognize it as a vehicle, but something different.  It is important to remember that a definition implies _all_ the  characteristics of the units, since it identifies their _essential_, not their _exhaustive_, characteristics; since it designates _existents_, not their  isolated aspects; and since it is a condensation of, not a substitute for, a wider  knowledge of the existents involved.

So they may be different, but they are karate because of core concepts and skillsets.


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## dancingalone (Mar 16, 2010)

Omar, you're taking the broad view on this, which is fine.  It's true enough to say something like all karate styles have punches and kicks.

The devil is in the details.  The Uechi family styles have a fairly unique 'universal' block called the wai-uke, and they spend a lot of time on esoterical things like toe kicks.  They're probably the best example of dissimilar karate as there can be without drifting into Chinese systems proper.

As an Goju instructor I've have had students enrolled with prior experience in other karate styles.  It's really not an easy transition to adopt the sanchin stance as the primary training stance.  People from one of the systems that favor zenkutsu-dachi frequently bow out their knees too much and they don't understand how to root without dropping completely low to the ground.  It's a real struggle for them to relearn how to base themselves the Goju way.


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## Omar B (Mar 16, 2010)

I hear what you're saying man and understand the differences.  But I also stand by the fact that karate as a concept has more in common than simple kicking and punching.  Just like the concept for "table" is quite broad, we know what a table is and would never mistake a chair for a table.

I do totally get the the stance differences, but we all learned all those same stances.  Just that in Seido I used more zenkutsu-dachi and regular fighting stance than sanchin.  I did learn sanchin though much like I expect you to have taught your students all the stances we use more frequently.  As I said before, it's all more similar than different and the differences can be traced back to what our fore-bearers found more valuable in their view of things.

Yeah, I take a broad view of things because karate is a broad subject.


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## dancingalone (Mar 16, 2010)

Omar B said:


> I do totally get the the stance differences, but we all learned all those same stances.  Just that in Seido I used more zenkutsu-dachi and regular fighting stance than sanchin.  I did learn sanchin though much like I expect you to have taught your students all the stances we use more frequently.  As I said before, it's all more similar than different and the differences can be traced back to what our fore-bearers found more valuable in their view of things.



Yeah, but it's not just a matter of learning how to assume the stance for a split second in a nominally correct fashion.  One has to work hard enough to where the feeling and structure of sanchin rooting can come to you even when you're NOT in the classical hourglass position.  This requires holding your leg and core muscles in a certain fashion at first... And as I said that comes with difficulty for those with prior experience in another style.  It's actually easier for me to teach someone WITHOUT experience at all.  

Seems like we just have different perceptions of what is going on, so I'll let it drop.  No biggie.  Good training to you.


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## Omar B (Mar 16, 2010)

Good training to you too.  But I will say that I've not assumed sanchin for split seconds, in fact I learned sanchin kata, proper breathing and would even get caned on the back and legs by my sensei.  I won't presume to think that I spent as much time on sanchin or body hardening as you guys do, but it's not a foreign concept either.

I will point out again that differences come from our foudners.  Mas Oyama studied Goju, he founded Kyokushin which was different and Tadashi Nakamura founded Seido which was still further removed.  But at the end of the day aside from differences in focus (us on fighting) you can still see the same genetic material there.  It's the horse, the donkey and the mule.  LOL.


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## repz (Mar 16, 2010)

All schools run their styles differently, as it was pointed out already. You have a better chance in comparing organisations styles, like jka shotokan, and Japanese goju under the Urban organisation (for example, i dont know the organisations in goju), you might get a good comparison in this way, but it still gets difficult since they usually have to follow the syllabus of the organisation but some instructor still add differences.

In a broad sense, I was always told Goju was more circular and has more self defense orientated skills, Wado Ryu is shotokan mixed with japanese jujitsu techniques, and as for shotokan, shotokan uses deep stances and more linear attacks (i used to train in shotokan). You also have to take into account if they train for sport or not, which could mean they have a higher focus on footwork and other attributes that some karate coaches like to emphasize.

Its a very hard question to answer reagardless, even within a style. Like for example, many shotokan schools dont teach weapons or bunkai, but some do. Some shotokan schools have quick footwork, others dont and they seem glued to the floor. Shotokai puts their back leg in the reverse punch differently than jka shotokan, and so on.


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## JohnASE (Mar 17, 2010)

Manny said:


> I want to know something about the main four styles of Karate (Shoto Kan, Shito Ryo, Goju Ryu nad Wado Ryu).


Yes, there are variations on every style, but I believe these "main four styles of karate" are officially recognized by the Japanese government and have official versions.  If I remember correctly, in JKF, WKF, and USANKF competition, there are official versions of kata (shitei kata) for these four styles and none others.  When you compete, you _have to_ do the official versions.  We sell a couple of WKF shitei kata instructional videos and Shotokan, Shito Ryu, Goju Ryu, and Wado Ryu are the only styles represented.


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## dancingalone (Mar 17, 2010)

JohnASE said:


> Yes, there are variations on every style, but I believe these "main four styles of karate" are officially recognized by the Japanese government and have official versions.  If I remember correctly, in JKF, WKF, and USANKF competition, there are official versions of kata (shitei kata) for these four styles and none others.  When you compete, you _have to_ do the official versions.  We sell a couple of WKF shitei kata instructional videos and Shotokan, Shito Ryu, Goju Ryu, and Wado Ryu are the only styles represented.



Thanks, John.  I wish you well in your business endeavors, but I won't be buying one of those videos... I find the concept of shitei kata to be abhorrent.


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## Ray B (Mar 18, 2010)

While I do not practice shitei kata, they have their place.

Shitei kata is just homogenous mei kata. They are for visual purposes
only. They were created or modified so that different ryuha could compete
against each other on a level field. Though martial application can be
applied to them, their main purpose is for competition.

If this is what is important to you, then best of luck to you.


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## Grenadier (Mar 18, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Thanks, John. I wish you well in your business endeavors, but I won't be buying one of those videos... I find the concept of shitei kata to be abhorrent.


 
The idea of Shitei kata has its place in competition, though, in that it supposedly puts everyone on the same playing field.  Thus, one person's way of performing Shotokan's Kanku Dai or Jion will not be favored from another one's, since everyone has to do it with the same sequence.  

Let's face it: judges are going to be biased, even if they try not to be biased.  This way, judges who know how each Shitei kata is supposed to be performed, can render a fairer judgement.  

I do wonder, though, what the Wado Ryu folks were thinking when they decided to use Seisan as a Shitei kata?  I can certainly agree with using Chinto, since it shows very well, but Seisan?  I would have figured they would have used Wanshu instead...


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## seasoned (Mar 18, 2010)

Although there are style differences in karate, and it may all look similar, the Main differences lie within. Where does the power come from? Here is where you will find a few differences in opinion. Some arts are distance oriented and some are close in, and it will show up to a certain extent in their kata.


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## JohnASE (Mar 19, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Thanks, John.  I wish you well in your business endeavors, but I won't be buying one of those videos... I find the concept of shitei kata to be abhorrent.


I didn't realize there was such an aversion to shitei kata.  I always just thought of them as versions of a kata that a group had decided would be the official version.  i didn't realize they were so far removed from traditional kata that people would find them so without merit.

Dancingalone, thank you for your well wishes.  Not too many people are interested in WKF Shitei Kata videos.  We rarely sell them to anyone other than USANKF coaches.  A lot of people like the competitions though!


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