# Chi Sau - Can Different Styles/Branches Roll Together?



## Hong Kong Pooey (Nov 20, 2014)

So this other thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/63-wing-chun/116620-regarding-diverse-approaches-wc.html threw up something I found interesting - post 11 onward - and rather than derail it I thought I'd start a new one.

To put it very simply, my understanding was that the aim of Chi-Sau is to train you to be able to clear your opponents hands/arms if they are out in front in order to strike them (or unbalance, trip, etc), so when some people opined that in their experience it doesn't work when 2 practitioners of different styles meet I was rather surprised.

If one person easily defeats the other then for the defeated to claim it's because the victor was doing it 'wrong' seems rather hollow to me. 

What are your thoughts & experiences?

As stated in the other thread I'm still very much a learner and haven't got as far as full chi-sau yet so if my understanding is wrong please advise why. Thanks!


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## Kwan Sau (Nov 20, 2014)

Hong Kong Pooey said:


> ...my understanding was that the aim of Chi-Sau is to...



different wing chun families/lineages have different ideas in mind when they train chi sau. Some think it is "fighting". Some think its a game of patty-cake. Some think it is the heart/soul/bread/butter of WC. Others start with a "roll" but quickly add intense speed and aggression to overbear their "training partner" in order to get their patty-cake slaps in... And some people can't seem to make up their minds whether or not they want to "roll" in chi sau...or disengage and start "sparring".


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## yak sao (Nov 20, 2014)

I've rolled with others from different lineages and I had no problem being able to mesh with them.
And while I agree with LFJ that chi sau is about development, that's only one aspect because I also think that there are different areas of focus or at least levels of intensity when training chi sau.

Just like there are varying degrees of free sparring with a partner, everything from hands only or half speed all the way up to full out with headgear and gloves, chi sau can be approached the same way.

You can get together with someone from another lineage and roll without trying to bust their balls. If their energy is off or in a direction that you are not accustomed to, deal with it...that's kind of what chi sau is meant to do; teach you how to deal with various pressures placed upon the arms/body.


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## Kwan Sau (Nov 20, 2014)

yak sao said:


> You can get together with someone from another lineage and roll without trying to bust their balls. If their energy is off or in a direction that you are not accustomed to, deal with it...that's kind of what chi sau is meant to do; teach you how to deal with various pressures placed upon the arms/body.



I agree...however sometimes pride and ego may creep in. Doesn't lend well to a friendly exchange...


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## yak sao (Nov 20, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> I agree...however sometimes pride and ego may creep in. Doesn't lend well to a friendly exchange...



Yep...but then that's a whole other topic.


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## yak sao (Nov 20, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> I agree...however sometimes pride and ego may creep in. Doesn't lend well to a friendly exchange...



I would go on to argue that that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's one thing to train with your kung fu brothers or your teacher. It's good to add a little stress to the mix from time to time to see how you fare under fire.


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## geezer (Nov 20, 2014)

It's easier to roll with other people from other WC branches if you are a student rather than an instructor. Ever since I was forced by circumstances into instructing again, I have been reluctant to cross bridges with other groups. Too much ego involved. Theirs, ...and mine too. If they trounce me, I may not care, but it would look bad, word gets around and I'm sure I'd catch hell from my association. And that's a shame, because personally, I don't really give a rat's behind. I enjoy working with others, especially those more skilled than me. Even if they are with other groups. 

Fortunately I _am_ still a student in the _DTE Eskrima_ group I train with. So I can spar and try things out, and nobody seems to mind when I do something stupid. In fact they've come to expect it! :lol:


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## Takai (Nov 20, 2014)

yak sao said:


> You can get together with someone from another lineage and roll without trying to bust their balls. If their energy is off or in a direction that you are not accustomed to, deal with it...that's kind of what chi sau is meant to do; teach you how to deal with various pressures placed upon the arms/body.



I would have to agree with this. If you can only get your chi sao to work against someone in your own lineage then you haven't delved enough into what you are you should be learning.


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## Marnetmar (Nov 20, 2014)

uhhhhhh

I'm not sure if I buy this. Unless you're attempting to turn CS into a game to beat other WC people (which unfortunately a lot of people seem to do) instead of an actual form of training, good structure is good structure, and if you get hit it's because you're doing something wrong. Period.


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## yak sao (Nov 20, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> if you get hit it's because you're doing something wrong. Period.




Exactly!


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## yak sao (Nov 20, 2014)

geezer said:


> It's easier to roll with other people from other WC branches if you are a student rather than an instructor. Ever since I was forced by circumstances into instructing again, I have been reluctant to cross bridges with other groups. Too much ego involved. Theirs, ...and mine too. If they trounce me, I may not care, but it would look bad, word gets around and I'm sure I'd catch hell from my association. And that's a shame, because personally, I don't really give a rat's behind. I enjoy working with others, especially those more skilled than me. Even if they are with other groups. :lol:



It does suck being the big fish in the small pond sometimes. I just want to get in there and mix it up...hell, that's how we learned in the first place and what got us to where we are. But now, for whatever reason, we're expected to be infallible and if we're not, then there's something wrong with us.


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## LFJ (Nov 21, 2014)

yak sao said:


> Just like there are varying degrees of free sparring with a partner, everything from hands only or half speed all the way up to full out with headgear and gloves, chi sau can be approached the same way.



To an extent. There is a point where people take it too far, like _chi-sau_ competitions where they gear up and try to fight each other in a very unrealistic way. Some people like that, but I think you should just free spar if you want real pressure in a more realistic way. Being able to hit someone from mutual pre-contact, doesn't mean you'll be able to do the same when they don't give you their arms. Some people even rely on that contact, because that's where they are comfortable, and they'll search for arms that aren't there in a real fight and get trounced.



> that's kind of what chi sau is meant to do; teach you how to deal with various pressures placed upon the arms/body.



Maybe your _chi-sau_. For me, it's an abstract drilling format where from the beginning we are exchanging force to develop punching power and refine alignments. This requires force to be exchanged in a very specific way. Everything proliferates from there as we learn to sustain attacks through instinctive reactions to interrupted lines, without trying to feel for energies in our partner's arms and manipulate them with stickiness, because none of that happens in free fighting where there is no pre- or prolonged arm contact. No matter how fast we are going in _chi-sau_, we are still extending two arms equally in redundant arm contact using abstract shapes that won't be used in free fighting. So "fighting" from that position is really phony and will lead to a lot unrealistic theory based on pre- or prolonged arm contact.


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## yak sao (Nov 21, 2014)

LFJ said:


> To an extent. There is a point where people take it too far, like _chi-sau_ competitions where they gear up and try to fight each other in a very unrealistic way. Some people like that, but I think you should just free spar if you want real pressure in a more realistic way. Being able to hit someone from mutual pre-contact, doesn't mean you'll be able to do the same when they don't give you their arms. Some people even rely on that contact, because that's where they are comfortable, and they'll search for arms that aren't there in a real fight and get trounced.



I do see a lot of people get lost in the chi sau trap. They think good chi sau skills are all they need for effective fighting.
Equal time needs to be spent on closing the distance among other things.

What good are excellent chi sau skills if you get clocked by a right hook moving in to engage?


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## yak sao (Nov 21, 2014)

LFJ said:


> Maybe your _chi-sau_. For me, it's an abstract drilling format where from the beginning we are exchanging force to develop punching power and refine alignments. This requires force to be exchanged in a very specific way. Everything proliferates from there as we learn to sustain attacks through instinctive reactions to interrupted lines....



We do this as well. But you need to be able to apply WC against non WC and WC other than your own lineage. Otherwise you are just practicing what my old sifu referred to as martial incest.


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## LFJ (Nov 21, 2014)

yak sao said:


> We do this as well. But you need to be able to apply WC against non WC and WC other than your own lineage. Otherwise you are just practicing what my old sifu referred to as martial incest.



Ha, that's funny, and gross! 

As I said in that other thread, _chi-sau_, like form practice, is part of my personal training, my private time to work on areas in my system and correct errors according to my system with this developmental tool specific also to my system. Foreign ideas don't have a place in that part of training. I have no interest playing _chi-sau_ with people who have entirely different concepts of what we're doing. _Chi-sau_ doesn't leave the training hall.

What goes out to meet practitioners of other systems or styles is free sparring/ fighting. As long as you're doing that, you should be good, and you're testing your skills in a more realistic way too. If someone can convince you freehanded, then maybe it's worth a look into how things are done in their system. Ironically, I've seen people who could do cool things in _chi-sau_ but couldn't fight freehanded, without the mutual pre-contact. I'm not interested in that.


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## LFJ (Nov 21, 2014)

yak sao said:


> I do see a lot of people get lost in the chi sau trap. They think good chi sau skills are all they need for effective fighting.
> Equal time needs to be spent on closing the distance among other things.
> 
> What good are excellent chi sau skills if you get clocked by a right hook moving in to engage?



Exactly. Unfortunately, we also have people like that in our WSL lineage. Different branch of course. They say _chi-sau_ is "VT sparring" and is all that is needed, because there's nothing more a person will learn by you really cracking them as opposed to instead pushing or placing punches to show them where their gaps are.

I think this is ludicrous. Not only does moving through different ranges need to be addressed and different fighting styles dealt with, but you can take a light hit or disturbance and think you're fine and keep doing lots of things and think you're improving. If you've never been hit hard, you have no idea how you're really going to react when attacked for real and it hurts and you see stars. All your _chi-sau_ skills will fall apart, almost guaranteed. A huge importance in free sparring is the stress inoculation.


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## geezer (Nov 21, 2014)

LFJ said:


> Ironically, I've seen people who could do cool things in _chi-sau_ but couldn't fight freehanded, without the mutual pre-contact. *I'm not interested in that*.



What? Your objective isn't to become this guy?   Contact juggling presented by National Geographic. [VIDEO]


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## Cephalopod (Nov 21, 2014)

I'm a big believer in rolling with chunners from other schools and I grab every opportunity I can to do so.

I think we're blessed to have a platform, even an imperfect one, by which we can travel to any corner of the world, meet another WC/VT practitioner with a completely different outlook from your own, and test his skills and your own. Boxers have a platform, they can get in a ring anywhere in the world, BJJ'ers can get down on the mat. In these cases it will be very clear who the victor is. I see chisao (or gorsao or latsao) as being a way to measure skill not quantitatively but qualitatively. After a minute of rolling, I may have no idea who would be 'the last man standing' but that's really not the point. I will have had an opportunity to feel the practitioners skills and that might give me some food for thought.

Thus far, meeting up with other chunners, I've run into all sorts of situations. Some were way more skilled than I, some decidedly my junior. Some liked to root and be stationary others would float around. Some liked to hit hard, other threw kicks into their chisao... you get the idea. In all cases, I've walked away with something to think about. Sure, sometimes it had to do with improving my chisao skills for their own sake. But usually it was a consequence of the way the other practitioner was less predictable that the guys who I train with every week.

Something tells me that training to deal with unpredictability can't be bad for me!

The nice thing about chisao is that I can do this without lugging around a workout bag full of gear.
 And, on top of that, because I'm not too much of a douchbag, I often make good friends along the way


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## Vajramusti (Nov 21, 2014)

Cephalopod said:


> I'm a big believer in rolling with chunners from other schools and I grab every opportunity I can to do so.
> 
> I think we're blessed to have a platform, even an imperfect one, by which we can travel to any corner of the world, meet another WC/VT practitioner with a completely different outlook from your own, and test his skills and your own. Boxers have a platform, they can get in a ring anywhere in the world, BJJ'ers can get down on the mat. In these cases it will be very clear who the victor is. I see chisao (or gorsao or latsao) as being a way to measure skill not quantitatively but qualitatively. After a minute of rolling, I may have no idea who would be 'the last man standing' but that's really not the point. I will have had an opportunity to feel the practitioners skills and that might give me some food for thought.
> 
> ...


----------------------------------------------------
good post.


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## KPM (Nov 21, 2014)

Cephalopod said:


> I think we're blessed to have a platform, even an imperfect one, by which we can travel to any corner of the world, meet another WC/VT practitioner with a completely different outlook from your own, and test his skills and your own.


 
  Well, I think this attitude or perspective is a problem.  Too many people look at Chi Sau as if it was the litmus test of Wing Chun fighting ability.  Its not.  Why wouldn't the platform used to test skills between Wing Chun people be friendly sparring...just as for boxers?  Or rather Gor Sau with some protective equipment, if you want to look at it that way?  Don't we think of Wing Chun as a form of "Chinese Boxing"?  I think for many schools too much time and emphasis in put on Chi Sau, and that's why they can't spar or fight effectively.  I agree with LFJ on this one.


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## LFJ (Nov 22, 2014)

Cephalopod said:


> Thus far, meeting up with other chunners, I've run into all sorts of situations. Some were way more skilled than I, some decidedly my junior. Some liked to root and be stationary others would float around. Some liked to hit hard, other threw kicks into their chisao... you get the idea. In all cases, I've walked away with something to think about. Sure, sometimes it had to do with improving my chisao skills for their own sake. But usually it was a consequence of the way the other practitioner was less predictable that the guys who I train with every week.



And so... you go on looking to improve your _chi-sau_ skills against different styles of _chi-sau_, but... what about the free fighting?

I grab every opportunity to free spar with various styles, then go back to my _chi-sau_/_gwoh-sau_ to iron out errors that were drawn out under the pressure of free sparring. What is your _chi-sau_ in reference to? Just _chi-sau_? Is your goal nothing beyond that stage of training? If it's just a fun hobby then that's cool, I suppose. For me, I don't understand this fascination.


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## LFJ (Nov 22, 2014)

geezer said:


> What? Your objective isn't to become this guy?   Contact juggling presented by National Geographic. [VIDEO]



Whoa! Did he apprentice under Jareth, the Goblin King?


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## Argus (Nov 22, 2014)

As yak sao stated, I find it's pretty easy to mesh with other lineages when it comes to rolling.

I feel that, if you touch hands with another practitioner only to find that you are full of holes in the roll, then your understanding of position is poor; and the same with them. It's not a good thing, IMO, to get too used to partners who always keep their hands on a certain line, or chase hands even, and who may not take advantage of holes you present. Rolling with outside practitioners is one way you can learn to adapt better to more diverse feedback.

There definitely are those who misunderstand chisao, that I've crossed hands with, though. You've got the oxs with immoveable arms, and the crazy-fast-but-sloppy guys who try to over power you with quickly executed combinations. As dumb as it is to roll with these kinds of guys, and as much as sparring is a far better way of gauging skill at that point, it can nonetheless still be informative. You can usually find holes in the "Oxes" by taking a very soft approach and letting them open up lines of attack for you, and you can shut down the speedy-sloppy-slappy type with a bit of extra forward pressure and good lat-sao-jik-chung. It's usually not very safe to chisau with the latter type, though, and in either case you are better off just sparring if your goal is to compare skill.

The key difference is whether the other party treats chisao as an exercise to mutually develop skill, or some kind of sparring match. The former is good practice regardless of the lineages involved.


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## dlcox (Nov 22, 2014)

While I believe that "Sticking Hands" is a useful exercise for development of reflexes, timing and response I also find it limited, outdated and at times unrealistic. For me the problem lies in the framework, especially with "Rolling Hands" structure. To me "Rolling Hands" limits the practitioner's response to specific patterns based upon the limited range of movement and angles from which one is forced to respond from, especially in a boxing format. What if your natural reaction is to grapple? How does one effectively respond when what they are comfortable with is taken away because of the framework? This isn't always a bad thing as it forces the practitioner to develop a skill set that they are uncomfortable and limited with, but it also stifles the ability to perfect what they are naturally inclined to due. As KPM and LFJ have alluded to I believe that sparring is way more effective. It introduces a variety of ranges and methodologies that can be employed and allows the practitioners to focus on their strengths as well as when in "Trouble" work on their weaknesses, but it gives opportunity, opportunity that is not always present within the structure and format of "Sticking Hands". IMO it is an exercise that constantly suppresses the natural urges of some practitioners and forces them to conform to a method they are not comfortable with. As stated earlier this isn't necessarily a bad thing, as it makes one work on deficiencies, but this also suppresses natural reaction and forces one to "Work" within a limited frame with awkward positioning and structure, and this IMO isn't realistic. Conflict is way too organic and cannot be forced to fit into a neatly bundled package and expected to remain there. Starting from a distance without contact like in boxing or free-style wrestling is realistic and from here you can employ your personal preferences on strategy and use of Yong Chun technique and methodologies based upon your understanding of them not someone else's. It will require all the skill sets developed in "Sticking Hands" and a whole lot more, especially response to heavy pressure, which is really the only thing that matters in a "Real" situation. Though not useless, I don't find "Sticking Hands" or "Rolling Hands" a practical test of skill or the standard by which to judge one's level or understanding of Yong Chun. If it truly was the standard and as practical as many tout it to be, it would be seen and utilized by top fighters in professional MMA. Since it's not a secret known only to arcane Yong Chun masters and has been known to the general public for many years, I think it safe to assume that it isn't as practical or as effective as many may believe, it's just a skill developing tool, not a measure of prowess or a skill necessary to effectively defend oneself.


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## Vajramusti (Nov 22, 2014)

dlcox said:


> While I believe that "Sticking Hands" is a useful exercise for development of reflexes, timing and response I also find it limited, outdated and at times unrealistic. -------------------\
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## dlcox (Nov 22, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> dlcox said:
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> > While I believe that "Sticking Hands" is a useful exercise for development of reflexes, timing and response I also find it limited, outdated and at times unrealistic. -------------------\
> ...


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## Vajramusti (Nov 22, 2014)

dlcox said:


> Vajramusti said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps within the confines of Yong Chun, have yet to see it effectively employed against a good wrestler versed in "Pummeling" or a good Boxer versed in "Clinch Control" let alone against a decent Long Fist practitioner. I'm not saying it is a useless exercise just not convinced that it is the "Highest" achievement one can attain, let alone the most practical. IMO too limited in design, structure and use. I think it is an antiquated exercise that way too many place way too much emphasis on. It does have some good points of instruction, but for me too limited. I respect your viewpoint Joy, but I think on this we will have to agree to disagree.
> ...


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## yak sao (Nov 22, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> dlcox said:
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## Kwan Sau (Nov 22, 2014)

yak sao said:


> Chi sau training is not just the arms...it is the shoulder, the hips, the legs....the *whole body*.



Exactly! !!!!


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## KPM (Nov 22, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> One of my graduated students was an All American Greco Roman wrestler. Chisao  skills helped him immensely.I wont give you many other anecdotes.
> .



Helped him immensely to do what?   A better gauge would be whether one of your other "graduated students" was able to use his Chi Sau skills to easily shut down your All American when he chose to aggressively apply his wrestling skills to take them down and pin them.  Did that ever happen?


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## dlcox (Nov 23, 2014)

yak sao said:


> [QUOTEit uselessVajramusti;1669260]
> 
> I too have found chi sau immensely useful in dealing with grapplers.
> 
> Chi sau training is not just the arms...it is the shoulder, the hips, the legs....the whole body.



Like I said, I don't believe it a useless exercise just antiquated. Yes it does require full body movement, conceptually it is good and I believe lends itself well to grappling especially understanding "Pummeling". The problem for me lies in the framework and platform for which traditional "Sticking Hands" is performed. There have been numerous discussions on use of Chi Shou concepts versus traditional Chi Shou use. Many traditionalist have stated that anything that deviates beyond the platform and structure is not "Correct", etc. To me "Hand Fighting", "Pummeling" & "Grip Fighting" all share the same concepts as Chi Shou yet the platform, structure and theory of use has been vehemetly shot down as not being Chi Shou by many traditionalist. Now it seems many are recanting their stance, which is it? Can Chi Shou be conceptual and flexible or does it have to reside within the platform and framework to be considered Chi Shou? You can't have both or choose one or the other when it suits you then argue against the other. Also, as much as it saddens me, I have yet to see a strict traditional Yong Chun stylist perform well against another style in a full contact arena, where the majority of Yong Chun practitioners agree that what they are seeing is what they fundamentally regard as Yong Chun. I have seen modified Yong Chun concepts used in full contact and had many disagree with me that what they were seeing did not resemble Yong Chun as they understood it and if it wasn't labeled so wouldn't have guessed it. I think that when it comes to Chi Shou we can't have that gray area, everyone needs to pick a side. Traditional or conceptual.


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## Vajramusti (Nov 23, 2014)

dlcox said:


> Like I said, I don't believe it a useless exercise just antiquated. Yes it does require full body movement, conceptually it is good and I believe lends itself well to grappling especially understanding "Pummeling". The problem for me lies in the framework and platform for which traditional "Sticking Hands" is performed. There have been numerous discussions on use of Chi Shou concepts versus traditional Chi Shou use.  -----------------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Each to his own. Very likely you are doing a different kind of wing chun. Chi sao (you are using Mandarin?). IMO it is not antiquated. It deals with Ip Man's approach
> to the dynamics of motion---of angles, of timings, of lines, of distance of structure and function, and dealing with gravitational paths,and any incoming force. Good Ip Man wing chun is still rare despite the proliferation of the words "wing chun". Not being cantankerous.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 23, 2014)

Chinese &#40656;&#25163;
Cantonese _chi[SUP]1[/SUP] sau²_
Mandarin ch&#464;sh&#466;u

As to the main question 



> Chi Sau - Can Different Styles/Branches Roll Together?



I'm not a Wing Chun guy, I basically just play around with it, but I know that Wing Chun guys doing Chi Sau can roll with taiji guys doing push hands.


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## dlcox (Nov 23, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> dlcoxI1669291 said:
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## yak sao (Nov 23, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> An excellent summation of chi sau.


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## Vajramusti (Nov 23, 2014)

dlcox said:


> Vajramusti said:
> 
> 
> > Yes I use mandarin, because of my northern roots.
> ...


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## Vajramusti (Nov 23, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Chinese &#40656;&#25163;
> Cantonese _chi[SUP]1[/SUP] sau²_
> Mandarin ch&#464;sh&#466;u
> 
> ...


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes they can if the parties check their egos. A wing chun friend of mine- I have been out of touch with him for some time-actually entered push hand 
contest with taiji guys- he pushed with CXW protégé  Ren. Ren complained that he was using too much "force".


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 23, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yes they can if the parties check their egos. A wing chun friend of mine- I have been out of touch with him for some time-actually entered push hand
> contest with taiji guys- he pushed with CXW protégé  Ren. Ren complained that he was using too much "force".




Interesting, I am not anywhere near the skill level of Ren Guangyi, but that is the same thing I said. The only other thing I noticed is that they did not pay attention to their feet. Root was good, moving the root was good, but it was rather easy to get my foot next to theirs for a sweep, or a Chen style stomp. But please do not take this the wrong way, I was getting pummeled more often than not.


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## Vajramusti (Nov 23, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Interesting, I am not anywhere near the skill level of Ren Guangyi, but that is the same thing I said. The only other thing I noticed is that they did not pay attention to their feet. Root was good, moving the root was good, but it was rather easy to get my foot next to theirs for a sweep, or a Chen style stomp. But please do not take this the wrong way, I was getting pummeled more often than not.


----------------------------------------------
Good sharing of perspectives.


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## LFJ (Nov 23, 2014)

dlcox said:


> Yes I use mandarin, because of my northern roots.



I first learned CMA from a Korean guy who taught all the terminology in Korean. It was very annoying to have to figure out how everything translated back into Chinese so I could communicate with others in the wider community who use the native language the style is taught in...



> The various strategies and platforms of Chi Shou employed by the many branches of Yong Chun tend to lead me to believe that an all inclusive method that deals with all the ranges and methods of unarmed combat has yet to be achieved.



It's called free sparring... People should, in my opinion, look at _chi-sau_ as a training stage and tool like the forms. That way they might realize there is a further stage for free fight training, and it's not _chi-sau_!


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## dlcox (Nov 23, 2014)

LFJ said:


> I first learned MA from a Korean guy who taught all the terminology in Korean. It was very annoying to have to figure out how everything translated back into Chinese so I could communicate with others in the wider community who use the native language the style is taught in...
> 
> 
> 
> It's called free sparring... People should, in my opinion, look at _chi-sau_ as a training stage and tool like the forms. That way they might realize there is a further stage for free fight training, and it's not _chi-sau_!



I use mandarin simply because that is what I'm used to and don't see a need to use cantonese, sorry if it confuses anyone.

I agree with you and KPM here that Chi Shou is not the standard by which Yong Chun prowess or ability should be judged, free sparring should be the only standard as it is the most realistic approach. I'm simply stating, in my round about way, that I think for Chi Shou to be more effective it needs to be adapted and modified to the free sparring realm. What I mean by this is to be more lax on the "rules" of contact and structure typically employed by traditional Yong Chun practitioners, many may disagree with me, but until someone can effectively employ the typical Chi Shou platform against me under heavy duress I will not be convinced of it's practicality. There are IMO better practices that essentially strive to achieve the same goal. I have never cared about trying to conform to concepts that are counter productive to what I am trying to achieve when it comes to conflict, I will use whatever gives me results. Some may believe that this is not traditional but I don't care, I care about what is effective for me and yields higher percentage results, don't care what it looks like. Concepts are not bound by technique, Yong Chun for me is concept driven not technique driven. Again no one has to agree with my view, I'm not trying to convince anyone my way is better, just stating my point of view based upon my understanding and my experience no one else's.


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## LFJ (Nov 23, 2014)

dlcox said:


> I agree with you and KPM here that Chi Shou is not the standard by which Yong Chun prowess or ability should be judged, free sparring should be the only standard as it is the most realistic approach. I'm simply stating, in my round about way, that I think for Chi Shou to be more effective it needs to be adapted and modified to the free sparring realm. What I mean by this is to be more lax on the "rules" of contact and structure typically employed by traditional Yong Chun practitioners, many may disagree with me, but until someone can effectively employ the typical Chi Shou platform against me under heavy duress I will not be convinced of it's practicality.



I'm confused by the way you speak of _chi-sau_ and its "realism", "effectiveness", and "practicality" or lack thereof.

Its effectiveness and practicality depend on your objective in training it. If it's in relation to "realism" as compared to free sparring or actual fighting, I think you're misunderstanding the role of _chi-sau_.

It's an effective and practical exercise as a training stage and tool for developing things like punching power, structure, balance, coordination, distance, timing, reflexes, etc. and for correcting errors in these that get forced out under pressure in sparring and fighting. WSL kept a blackboard in the training hall that had everyone's names on it and what they had to work on. So-and-so: Bad _wu-sau_, for example. These things they'd have to improve through _chi-sau_ drilling and incremental pressure testing through _gwoh-sau_, free sparring, and actually fighting, if they were so inclined.

It's important that _chi-sau_ remains its own training stage and free sparring be done separately. To adapt and mix the two is absurd. If you're looking for it to be "effective" and "practical" when someone keeps to the standard _chi-sau_ structure while you give them "heavy duress", attacking them like you're free sparring, then you have indeed misunderstood its role in the training cycle entirely!

_Chi-sau_ is where I'm usually working to improve something specific in a controlled manner, even when it's free flowing, like training with the wooden dummy to fix my own positions, not fight anyone. Fighting me all out in _chi-sau_ would be like attacking me while I'm training on the dummy. Only a nut would do that, or someone who just doesn't understand what I'm trying to do at this stage in training.


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## dlcox (Nov 24, 2014)

LFJ said:


> I'm confused by the way you speak of _chi-sau_ and its "realism", "effectiveness", and "practicality" or lack thereof.
> 
> Its effectiveness and practicality depend on your objective in training it. If it's in relation to "realism" as compared to free sparring or actual fighting, I think you're misunderstanding the role of _chi-sau_.
> 
> ...


I understand your position clearly, perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been. I generally agree with your assessment. I don't want to diverge any further from th op than already has been. In short I believe that one's time is better spent on specific drilling and sparring as compared to Chi Shou. IMO too many focus too much on chasing mastery in Chi Shou and not enough on, what are IMO, more practical approaches to realistic practice. With that I won't argue any further, just my 2 cents, no one has to agree, sorry for all the fuss.


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## geezer (Nov 25, 2014)

dlcox said:


> IMO too many focus too much on chasing mastery in Chi Shou and not enough on, what are IMO, more practical approaches to realistic practice.



On one hand I agree with you, KPM and LFJ on this point. On the other hand, I _enjoy_ the chi-sau game, and would like to become better at it. The important thing is to _keep it in perspective._ Kind of like a guy at the boxing gym who can do all kinds of tricks with a jump rope and on the speed bag. It's fun, but nobody pretends that it's a substitute for sparring. After a certain age you might prefer to train the fun stuff, do less sparring and when you do spar, keep it very light. But you are honest with yourself and know that this isn't everything you need for fighting.

I think what people object to most about some of us in WC is that we are not really honest about our limitations. To me that shows a lack of confidence in our strengths. A confident person can admit his shortcomings.


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## Danny T (Nov 25, 2014)

geezer said:


> I think what people object to most about some of us in WC is that we are not really honest about out limitations.


.
There are those who understand their limitations but won't admit it, worse is those who don't understand their limitations because they have not pressure tested themselves but go about as experts. The same could be said of many in the other arts as well.... Then there are those who not only don't pressure test but don't ask questions simply accept whatever they are told and never prove it for themselves. And yes we have a lot of that in all of the WC families.


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## KPM (Nov 25, 2014)

geezer said:


> I think what people object to most about some of us in WC is that we are not really honest about out limitations. To me that shows a lack of confidence in our strengths. A confident person can admit his shortcomings.



This is true.  I'm also beginning to realize that one of the things people object to about WC and "classical" martial arts in general is that when they are seen sparring or fighting they look nothing like they do when training.


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## Thunder Foot (Nov 27, 2014)

Chi sau with other schools in my opinion should be a natural thing. All too often we have these separatist views of Martial Arts, let alone Wing Chun whereby its not encouraged to understand it in its entirety. There are so many ways to chi sau just as there is to spar, so why not enjoy the experience. Its just but one tool in the arsenal of free fighting and an extension of our Wing Chun principle Loi lau hoi sung, etc... I say don't limit ourselves and learn all we can.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 27, 2014)

Thunder Foot said:


> Chi sau with other schools in my opinion should be a natural thing. All too often we have these separatist views of Martial Arts, let alone Wing Chun whereby its not encouraged to understand it in its entirety. There are so many ways to chi sau just as there is to spar, so why not enjoy the experience. Its just but one tool in the arsenal of free fighting and an extension of our Wing Chun principle Loi lau hoi sung, etc... I say don't limit ourselves and learn all we can.



Exactly.

Only do things within your given style or given lineage and you could be in for a surprise when you find yourself outside of it.


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## Vajramusti (Nov 28, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Only do things within your given style or given lineage and you could be in for a surprise when you find yourself outside of it.


--------------------
Agree.


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## Pat M (Jan 7, 2015)

My view is that Chi Sau between different families or styles is possible depending on the approach of the practitioners. We are so lucky to have something as universal and transferable as Chi Sau, it is not combat; though can become a partial bridge between technique reflex and sensitivity training and combat. Ensuring no ego what so ever enters into your training will ensure Chi Sau remains that bridge as if you can not play well together you will no longer want to!

Entering into Chi Sau with other schools keeping a welcoming yet on guard approach will be doing your best in being able to share and grow within the Wing Chun family. Some travel to experience this is a great part of your journey.


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## BTrent (Jan 8, 2015)

The Wong Hon Fun lineage of 7 Star Mantis has been practicing Chi Sau with Wing Chun practioners since Hong Kong.  We use mantis techniques on the wooden dummy.  Hong Kong was a wonderful melting pot.

Here is a video I took of my then Si-Hing now Sifu at a tournament in NC.


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## Pat M (Jan 8, 2015)

BTrent said:


> The Wong Hon Fun lineage of 7 Star Mantis has been practicing Chi Sau with Wing Chun practioners since Hong Kong.  We use mantis techniques on the wooden dummy.  Hong Kong was a wonderful melting pot.
> 
> Here is a video I took of my then Si-Hing now Sifu at a tournament in NC.



Note the smile on the face of the guy in the white shirt at times. This is the approch required.    nice video.


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