# Closed vs. Open stance



## skribs (Nov 16, 2013)

I did a lot of sparring as a kid, but I had no concept of strategy other than "low block and kick" at that age.  Now that I'm starting sparring again, I'm wondering if someone can explain the advantages and disadvantages of an open stance vs. a closed stance.  Just to clarify - I'm assuming open stance is a mirror image and closed stance is the same leg back?

Specifically, I'm thinking about what types of strikes would be good from each stance.  This way I know what to expect from my opponent and I know what would be more effective from myself.

Thanks for helping a newbie out.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 16, 2013)

When you are in mirror stance (closed stance), if you draw a line from your chest center and also from your opponent's chest center, both lines will intersect a point in front of you. If you can move to that point, your opponent's body will be completely open for your attack (such as a side kick to the chest). It works for your opponent as well. Also both you and your opponent's powerful back leg roundhouse kick can both kick at the other's chest. 

You don't have such issue in uniform stance (closed stance) because those 2 lines won't have intersection.

The mirror (open) stance is more risky than the uniform (closed) stance.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Nov 16, 2013)

I don't know if it is as simple as "Advantage" as it is a question of strategy. Different rules may affect one more versus the other. For instance open stance would be a typical right handed boxer vs lefty. If you stay to the outside of the opponents foot it poots you slightly behind them which generaly makes it easier for you to attack.  WTF Style which favors rear leg kicks needs to launch from open stance to access more legal target areas.  If you can score with front or rear leg you can use both staces well.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 16, 2013)

Assume your opponent may be a grappler. In grappling, while in uniform stance or mirror stance, your opponent will have to use different set of techniques to attack you. 

For example, in 

- uniform stance, your opponent's back leg can sweep your leading leg if his leading leg is at the right place and at the right time. 
- mirror stance, he won't be able to sweep you because his back leg can't reach to your leading leg ankle, and his leading leg is too close to your leading leg to make "foot sweep" effective.

- uniform stance, your opponent's has to make a big turn in order to make his hip to touch your belly to apply his hip throw. It's very risky to make that turn.
- mirror stance, he only need to move forward for his hip throw. Since he doesn't have to take risk for his body spinning, his hip throw can be more effective.

If you know exactly what set of techniques that can be used in both stances (such as to watch for "foot sweep" while in uniform stance, and to watch for "hip throw" while in "mirror stance"), you can be one step ahead of your opponent.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 16, 2013)

skribs said:


> I did a lot of sparring as a kid, but I had no concept of strategy other than "low block and kick" at that age.  Now that I'm starting sparring again, I'm wondering if someone can explain the advantages and disadvantages of an open stance vs. a closed stance.  Just to clarify - I'm assuming open stance is a mirror image and closed stance is the same leg back?
> 
> Specifically, I'm thinking about what types of strikes would be good from each stance.  This way I know what to expect from my opponent and I know what would be more effective from myself.
> 
> Thanks for helping a newbie out.


With a closed stance, You can really nail the back of his leg with a round house kick and or sweep the leg, which leaves them open of a back-knuckle to the face.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 16, 2013)

skribs said:


> I did a lot of sparring as a kid, but I had no concept of strategy other than "low block and kick" at that age.  Now that I'm starting sparring again, I'm wondering if someone can explain the advantages and disadvantages of an open stance vs. a closed stance.  Just to clarify - I'm assuming open stance is a mirror image and closed stance is the same leg back?
> 
> Specifically, I'm thinking about what types of strikes would be good from each stance.  This way I know what to expect from my opponent and I know what would be more effective from myself.
> 
> Thanks for helping a newbie out.


Consider, that you should fight your fight, and forget all this crap. If you are left eye dominant fight with your right leg forward; if you are right eye dominant fight with your right leg forward. Assume your opponent might kill you if you aren't giving them your best, and it is best to fight how you fight, not the opposite, or the same as how they fight.
Sean


----------



## skribs (Nov 16, 2013)

This is WTF taekwondo.  Grappling and leg kicks aren't allowed in sparring.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 16, 2013)

skribs said:


> This is WTF taekwondo.  Grappling and leg kicks aren't allowed in sparring.


Good point, but you are the better fighter in your stance.
Sean


----------



## skribs (Nov 16, 2013)

I guess what I was looking for is tips on footwork, primarily when would I want to switch feet.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 16, 2013)

skribs said:


> I guess what I was looking for is tips on footwork, primarily when would I want to switch feet.


Oh sorry. Well, a good time would be after a punch off the rear hand. You simply punch, step up with the rear foot, bring your feet together, knees bent, and step back with the lead foot. Jump switching is fine, but less safe. 
Sean


----------



## Thousand Kicks (Nov 18, 2013)

As far as footwork goes the general strategy is to circle away from the power side. If you are in a righ leg back stance and your opponent is as well, you would typically cirlce to your right. If they switch then you would circle to your left. Once again this is a general strategy and not concrete, there are reasons why you would not do this, but I'm trying to keep this short. 

The main reason people want to stay in a closed stance is to reduce the chance of getting countered with back kicks or wheel kicks. If your are a rear leg fighter and your are in a closed stance the opponent cannot spin counter against a rear leg kick. If you are in an open stance and attack with the rear leg the spin counter is open to your opponent. However, because TKD fighters typically land with the kicking leg in front, we are always going from open to close. You just have to be aware of the stance you are in before you launch the next kick. 

Lastly, only switch stance for strategic reasons. Never switch simply becuase you opponent has switched. If you are right hand and right leg dominant, don't give up the power advantage to maintain a stance. There are other ways to attack and defend while maintaining your preferred stance.


----------



## WaterGal (Nov 18, 2013)

From closed stance, it's very easy to do a quick front-leg kick on your opponent, and vice-versa.  From open stance, you're pretty much stuck to side kick or hook kick for front-leg kicks (ETA: and the opponent's arm is usually in the way if they've got their hands up).


----------



## WaterGal (Nov 18, 2013)

Thousand Kicks said:


> The main reason people want to stay in a closed stance is to reduce the chance of getting countered with back kicks or wheel kicks. If your are a rear leg fighter and your are in a closed stance the opponent cannot spin counter against a rear leg kick.



But if you're kicking with the front leg in a closed stance, you're totally open to a back kick.


----------



## skribs (Nov 18, 2013)

> As far as footwork goes the general strategy is to circle away from the power side. If you are in a righ leg back stance and your opponent is as well, you would typically cirlce to your right. If they switch then you would circle to your left. Once again this is a general strategy and not concrete, there are reasons why you would not do this, but I'm trying to keep this short.


 
So, the basic circle strategy here is circle to front leg.  This would tell me that if an opponent circles to my front leg, it would be a good idea to switch and strike when they&#8217;re more in my crosshairs.



> The main reason people want to stay in a closed stance is to reduce the chance of getting countered with back kicks or wheel kicks. If your are a rear leg fighter and your are in a closed stance the opponent cannot spin counter against a rear leg kick. If you are in an open stance and attack with the rear leg the spin counter is open to your opponent. However, because TKD fighters typically land with the kicking leg in front, we are always going from open to close. You just have to be aware of the stance you are in before you launch the next kick.


 
One of the early sparring drills we do is a quick switch followed by a spin kick.  Now that you mention this I understand why a bit better.



> Lastly, only switch stance for strategic reasons. Never switch simply becuase you opponent has switched. If you are right hand and right leg dominant, don't give up the power advantage to maintain a stance. There are other ways to attack and defend while maintaining your preferred stance.


 
I&#8217;m equally bad with both legs 



> From closed stance, it's very easy to do a quick front-leg kick on your opponent, and vice-versa. From open stance, you're pretty much stuck to side kick or hook kick for front-leg kicks (ETA: and the opponent's arm is usually in the way if they've got their hands up).


 
This is the type of detail-oriented information I was hoping for.  Because of my penchant for front leg kicks, it makes sense then that closed stance would be more my style. 



> But if you're kicking with the front leg in a closed stance, you're totally open to a back kick.


 
That&#8217;s why I just use the front leg kick as a closer to get in and throw some punches


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 19, 2013)

skribs said:


> I&#8217;m equally bad with both legs


Not true.


----------



## Thousand Kicks (Nov 19, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> But if you're kicking with the front leg in a closed stance, you're totally open to a back kick.



This is true. However, front leg kicks are usually less powerful, and more importantly, less commited than rear leg kicks. Back kick and wheel kick counters are more difficult against front leg kicks. When sparring against a person who likes to use a lot front leg kicks I like to use traps to bait the kick and then counter. I don't usually counter on pure reaction


----------



## Thousand Kicks (Nov 19, 2013)

skribs said:


> So, the basic circle strategy here is circle to front leg. This would tell me that if an opponent circles to my front leg, it would be a good idea to switch and strike when theyre more in my crosshairs.



Think about it this way and assume right leg back closed stance for now. If I circle to my right, your rear leg roundhouse, axe kick, side kick are less effective. A spin kick, while still viable is not very likely as hitting somebody with a spin kick off the line is a low percentage attack. Front leg attacks are probably the simplest and least risky thing to do for my opponent. If I can condition them to try front leg kicks because of the way I'm moving, I have an easier time setting up my own counters. If I move and they kick I have to read maybe 3-4 techniques versus 8-9 if I just stand in front of them.


----------



## skribs (Nov 19, 2013)

Next time we do sparring I'll try to think about my footwork as I'm doing it, now that I have a bit better idea of the strategy involved.  My big problem right now is we're not likely to do much contact sparring in the near future, as most people in my class don't have gear yet


----------



## credmc (Feb 9, 2014)

I don't know if I'd describe it as an advantage but being aware of stance allows you to look for openings in your opponent, noticing your opponents stance and then switching your stance to allow for you to attack an opening or maybe taking advantage of something your opponent has shown in his attack/defense. I think every fighter has a preferred side but a good opponent will constantly force you to change your stance, which is why we train both sides, so we have no weak side.


----------



## Thousand Kicks (Feb 10, 2014)

credmc said:


> I don't know if I'd describe it as an advantage but being aware of stance allows you to look for openings in your opponent, noticing your opponents stance and then switching your stance to allow for you to attack an opening or maybe taking advantage of something your opponent has shown in his attack/defense. I think every fighter has a preferred side but a good opponent will constantly force you to change your stance, which is why we train both sides, so we have no weak side.



I will have to respectfully disagree with your statement. Regardless of what your opponent is doing, you don't have to switch stances. There are ways to counter techniques from closed and open stances. And, you will always have a stance you are less comfortable with (I don't like saying weak side).

My advice to people about sparring is to have a reason for doing something. I'm okay with people switching stances if it's part of your strategy to remain in open or closed stance. But, don't switch just to switch and don't switch because your opponent switched. 

Play your game, not theirs


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 10, 2014)

credmc said:


> I don't know if I'd describe it as an advantage but being aware of stance allows you to look for openings in your opponent, noticing your opponents stance and then switching your stance to allow for you to attack an opening or maybe taking advantage of something your opponent has shown in his attack/defense. I think every fighter has a preferred side but a good opponent will constantly force you to change your stance, which is why we train both sides, so we have no weak side.



Congratulations. By allowing your opponent to determine your stance, you've come a long ways towards allowing them to control the entire fight.

Not my idea of good planning...


----------



## credmc (Feb 10, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Congratulations. By allowing your opponent to determine your stance, you've come a long ways towards allowing them to control the entire fight.
> 
> Not my idea of good planning...




Let me explain a bit further, I wouldn't switch stances simply because my opponent switched stances, like im switching out of panic, I would switch when certain things present itself like a certain pattern of attack, an opening, something that I can take advantage. I'm not automatically switching, its when I feel I can take advantage of something, similar to a boxer that fights both hands might switch stances in fights to take advantage of something he notices in the other mans defense. Catch a guy enough times, they will take notice and eventually change to match your stance, so every time you switch, they switch and hell you might even switch for nothing just to mess them up and throw them off their game.


----------



## Thousand Kicks (Feb 11, 2014)

I can see we have different views of sparring. Like a lot of Olympic TKD fighters, I switch stances while fighting. But, a lot of it is the fact that when we throw kicks, our kicking leg lands in front causing us to switch stance. So if I start with my right leg back (preferred) and throw a kick or combo I might end up with my left leg back. Mostly, I will stay in the stance I'm in unless the situation has gone back to neutral and I can switch without worrying my opponent will take advantage of me switching.

As far as boxers go. Very very few boxers can fight effectively from both stances. Switching in boxing is usually seen as a gimmick or an act of desperation because nothing else is working. You are taught to stay in your base stance and find a way to solve the puzzle. Switching adds another variable to the situation. By that I mean even if you manuever yourself into a good position, now you must deliver punches from a stance you're not completely comfortable with. So instead of landing a meaningful shot, you just get a shot in.


----------

