# Atrocities Like This Make You Wonder ...



## Sukerkin (Nov 28, 2012)

Remind me again why we are still spending the lives of our soldiers and a lot of money we cannot afford in this country?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20532037

Maybe we should partition the place, with all the women moved to somewhere safe from their menfolk?  

It's not often that I am left bereft of sensible comment but this story took the wind out of me .  It's the sort of emotional reaction that sets off a voice in the back of your mind that says, "Move the innocents out and nuke the place flat".


----------



## Big Don (Nov 28, 2012)

Damn those Methodists


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 28, 2012)

Sukerkin said:


> Remind me again why we are still spending the lives of our soldiers and a lot of money we cannot afford in this country?
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20532037
> 
> ...


You know if guys weren't stabbiing their girlfriends all the time in the West, I might tend to agree. Crazy things happen all the time due to requited love all over the world. I am just saying.
Sean


----------



## arnisador (Nov 28, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> You know if guys weren't stabbiing their girlfriends all the time in the West, I might tend to agree



The Afghanis need stalker laws too.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 29, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> You know if guys weren't stabbiing their girlfriends all the time in the West, I might tend to agree. Crazy things happen all the time due to requited love all over the world. I am just saying.
> Sean




Really? You do know that women are objects to be owned out there not objects of love? The girl belonged to her father who decides who she marries, her husband will be the one who can pay the most for her. Killing her was done to deprive him of his possession not to get at her. It's not a 'Muslim' thing either rather a cultrual one of the region, India, Pakistan and surrounding countries are the same regardless of religion.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 29, 2012)

Violence against women in Afghanistan is endemic. A nationwide survey of 4,700 women, published in 2008, found that 87.2 percent had experienced at least one form of physical, sexual, or psychological violence or forced marriage in their lifetimes.
* * *
Fifty-seven percent of all marriages that take place in Afghanistan are classified as child marriages by UNIFEM (under the legal age of 16), and 70 to 80 percent as forced marriages.


http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/201...-commit-suicide-in-afghanistan-each-year.html

Read the links in this article before you decide this is a lover's tiff gone wrong. ​


----------



## GrandmasterP (Nov 29, 2012)

Can't be right can it?
They seem to be about where we were a couple of hundred years ago in terms of equality.
Violence is everywhere though, not to condone this sort of thing but it's not just the moslems.


----------



## Tgace (Nov 29, 2012)

So obviously these countries dont REALLY have a problem with this..I mean "violence" is everywhere...people stab their girlfriends...nothing unusual here.

Whatev.


----------



## GrandmasterP (Nov 29, 2012)

Well we'll not change them that's for sure.
No recidivism following capital punishment, single round comes in a lot cheaper than social worker or probation officer salaries.
More effective too.
Chinese send the ammo bill to the relatives.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 29, 2012)

GrandmasterP said:


> Can't be right can it?
> They seem to be about where we were a couple of hundred years ago in terms of equality.
> Violence is everywhere though, not to condone this sort of thing but it's not just the moslems.



I would say we've never actually had the same mindset even a couple of hundred years ago. Women have never been treated with such violence here as in many Asian countries. Women here may not have been free but were seen at least as valuable, in Afghan as well as surrounding areas women are actually valueless and are murdered, rapes and brutalised with monotonous regularity. School girls have aid thrown in their faces or as in Pakistan they are shot in the head because they dare to want better. Again in Pakistan there's the parent who covered their daughter in acid and left her to die because they say she dishonoured them...by looking at a boy. In the UK we've just had the case of parents who killed their daughter for much the same thing. 
This is beyond men killing their girlfriends, this is the wholesale genocide of women. This is hating women so much they are used worse than domestic animals. Yes we have domestic violence in the west but it's specific men who are actually pursued by the law, there it's just about every male in a culture that accepts this is how things are. the problem many have in the west with this is that they , being PC, announce that we can't interfere with someones culture and politicians discourage any effort made by women outside these countries to help those in them. It's clear a culture change is needed to save these women and girls but too many think we shouldn't say anything.
Dismissing what goes in in Afghanistan as merely being unfortunate and such things happen here, well they don't actually, a guy slapping his girlfriend around is different from men killing a young underage girl because her father refused to let her marry one of them. The father I imagine was looking for a better price for his daughter so they deprived him of her, no thought for the girl and how she must have suffered, she wouldn't have gone to her death a virgin that's certain, if they hadn't killed her she would have gone to prison for being raped.
It's probably hard to many to understand here what lifes like for females in these countries, it's more than just random violence it's the horror of everyday violent slavery.


----------



## GrandmasterP (Nov 29, 2012)

I'm not defending anyone here, it's wrong and they should be shot.
If someone is looked at as nothing but property to be done with as the owner chooses........


----------



## WC_lun (Nov 29, 2012)

Tez, my heart goes out to anyone who suffers through such madness and I can sypathize with your outrage.  However, what can we do about it?


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 29, 2012)

Well seeing as you've asked.... first of all understand the problem, 'whatever' doesn't cut it I'm afraid, any man that can 'whatever' to a child being killed, and the girl in the OP is a child, needs to understand a lot more about what is happening.

secondly there are organisations that work to reduce violence in your own country, help them but moreover there needs to be a change in attitudes among some countries. It's not good saying well it's there culture. South Africa and it's policy of apartheid were pressured into changing by economic sanctions and world opinion. We need to put pressure on these countries governments and really I don't care nor should we care about whether their 'right's as a country are been hurt. We are looking as the genocide of a gender, women are dying therefore we have a duty to help stop this. Find organisations that lobby your government to put this pressure on the countries involved. Public and world opinion has done a lot already, the Pakistan government has taken note and when Malala the schoolgirl was shot by the Taliban in Pakistan for going to school they've pledged to help both her and school girls, it's a start. 

For those that say it's nothing to do with them, look at your wives, mothers, sisters, nieces and think there but for the grace of G-d ..........

for me, these women are my sisters under the skin. They are owed more than this miserable short brutish life, can you really turn your back on them so easily? If we each do one small thing, if we can help one life, samll things matter, they snowball into big things. this is beyond borders, beyond party politicians, this is something that everyone should be concerned about. 

sponsor a girl http://plan-international.org/ 

help an organisation 
http://www.afghanwomensmission.org/

Lobby your policitians http://www.womenforwomen.org.uk/help-women/support-afghan-women.php

Jewish proverb....Save a life, save the world.





We said after the Holocaust, Never Again! that doesn't just mean Jews it means anyone and everyone. What is happening to these women is  no different to the Holocaust, the women have no rights, no political clout, no voice, they are being killed, tortured and enslaved, we mustn't turn our backs on them, for our sake as much as theirs. What sort of society are we, what sort of humans are we if we don't do even just a little bit to help and what happens when it's our turn who will help then?


----------



## arnisador (Nov 29, 2012)

Tgace said:


> So obviously these countries dont REALLY have a problem with this..I mean "violence" is everywhere...people stab their girlfriends...nothing unusual here.



The point isn't that it isn't worse there--the point is that there is a continuum more than a sharp difference.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 29, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Well seeing as you've asked.... first of all understand the problem, 'whatever' doesn't cut it I'm afraid, any man that can 'whatever' to a child being killed, and the girl in the OP is a child, needs to understand a lot more about what is happening.
> 
> secondly there are organisations that work to reduce violence in your own country, help them but moreover there needs to be a change in attitudes among some countries. It's not good saying well it's there culture. South Africa and it's policy of apartheid were pressured into changing by economic sanctions and world opinion. We need to put pressure on these countries governments and really I don't care nor should we care about whether their 'right's as a country are been hurt. We are looking as the genocide of a gender, women are dying therefore we have a duty to help stop this. Find organisations that lobby your government to put this pressure on the countries involved. Public and world opinion has done a lot already, the Pakistan government has taken note and when Malala the schoolgirl was shot by the Taliban in Pakistan for going to school they've pledged to help both her and school girls, it's a start.
> 
> ...


So we bomb them into Western values?


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 30, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> So we bomb them into Western values?




What an odd mind you have. Who said anything about bombing them? Did anything I say to lead anyone to think I want them bombed? No one is saying they should adopt Western values, if bombing people is your idea of Western values perhaps we'd all be better without them. We are talking human rights, the right of women and girls not to be beaten, raped and forcably married off. To be able to go to school without being shot or having acid thrown over them, the right not to have to be pregenat at 13, the right to make choices. 

If you have to troll do you think you could either be cleverer at it or do it somewhere else?


----------



## GrandmasterP (Nov 30, 2012)

Rights are odd slippery things.
The rights we take for granted weren't always such.
Women voting, taking degrees, being able to make financial and physical choices for themselves all had to be fought for, legislated over, resisted then replicated into acceptance.
We will not and cannot effect changes on another culture by imposition of our values, try as we might.
What we can do as has been usefully suggested here is support those brave people working for change within and from the cultures in need of positive change.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 30, 2012)

http://plan-international.org/about-plan/resources/videos/because-i-am-a-girl-so-what-about-boys

http://plan-international.org/girls/

We didn't bomb the South Africans into stopping Apartheid, nobody was bombed to stop slavery though America took longer than Europe, we didn't even bomb the Soviets into dropping communism, we need to stop this cruel abuse of women and girls...*because it's the right thing to do.*


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 30, 2012)




----------



## Bill Mattocks (Nov 30, 2012)

It is difficult, in situations like these, to maintain perspective, but logic has to continue to play a role in even the worst of times, or we fall into error, which begets unfortunate consequences.

_'Post hoc ergo propter hoc'_ is the name of the logical fallacy which we seem to be flirting with in this thread. The variant in this case is known as 'correlation not causation'.

In other words, Sukerkin notes that this problem is endemic in many nations such as Afghanistan, where we are currently fighting and suffering the loss of our own troops.  Others have noted that this is true, and have seen the 'correlation' with the fact that Afghanistan is nearly 100% Muslim.  The flawed logic of 'post hoc' leads one to believe that being Muslim causes people to behead their daughters.  Big Don alluded to it when he replied _"Damn those Methodists,"_ a clear back-handed attack on Muslims, implying that Christians do not cut the heads off their daughters, while Muslims do.

_'Post hoc ergo propter hoc'_ does not mean that there is no connection, but it does mean that the assumption is false.  One would have to prove that it is a Muslim trait to perform the atrocities described in this thread.

However, there are many other possible explanations for this kind of horrific behavior, none of which are as easy to rail against (and therefore perhaps not as much fun to be indignant about, eh Don?).  Afghanistan is also, in addition to being mostly Muslim, an intensely poor nation.  Incredibly uneducated.  Tribal in nature.  In very nearly all ways, Afghanistan is a nation that has a primitive culture.  Is that a Muslim trait?  Well, it is seen in a lot of Muslim nations, but certainly not all of them.  Turkey is largely Muslim, but it's not primitive.  The UK and the USA have large Muslim populations, also not primitive.  So perhaps it is more true to say that this sort of thing happens in countries which are primitive, rather than countries which are Muslim.  If one wishes to imply that this is caused by being Islamic rather than by being tribal, destitute, and primitive, one would have to go some ways towards proving that.

Similar atrocities against women seem to take place in many locations around the world.  Many of them are in Africa, in areas of countries which are not Muslim, but Animist, people who are members of local religions or cults rather than one of the 'Big Three' religions.  Women are circumsized, killed as witches, and so on.  Yet we do not rise up and blame their Animist religions; we do not rise up at all, in fact.

This reported beheading is a tragedy, and it's one of many.  There is no denying that it happens in countries like Afghanistan, where there is a Muslim population, quite often.  The question is whether or not being Islamic has anything to do with it.  I do not think that proof has been made, nor even seriously raised.  I would caution against jumping to that conclusion.  As I said, drawing conclusions from logical fallacies leads to unfortunate consequences.  Don't just reach for the explanation with offers the most comfort that one's own culture or religion are 'good' and therefore safe from such atrocities, while the culture or religion of the 'other' is bad and therefore the cause of such atrocities.  Things are not that simple, I fear.


----------



## WC_lun (Nov 30, 2012)

It is sad that before Russia invaded Adganastan, the culture there was changing from the inside.  Women were allowed education in many parts, especially Kabul.  There were even women doctors practicing medicine.  Then Russia invaded and the Taliban took power over from them.  Then regression happened for women's rights in a large way.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Nov 30, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> It is sad that before Russia invaded Adganastan, the culture there was changing from the inside.  Women were allowed education in many parts, especially Kabul.  There were even women doctors practicing medicine.  Then Russia invaded and the Taliban took power over from them.  Then regression happened for women's rights in a large way.



If you go back through the history of moderate Islam, there are many lessons to be learned.  The middle east was at one time becoming quite cosmopolitan, very 'Western', very secular in some ways.  However, democracy was not the way this was occurring.  It was through strongman dictatorships and kings whom the West pandered to. The revolution in Iran that overthrew the US-supported Shah was the first crack in the foundation that was being built.  We almost had something good happening, but now it is all ruined; and the extreme right in the West aims to keep the extremist Muslims in power by insisting that all of Islam is our enemy.  We build our own enemy, empower him, drive the moderates into his corner, all because we're spoiling for a good long religious war.  So nice.  I can't tell you how many times I read the hatred and venom spilling out of our own people and just want to throw up.  Yes, the Soviets have some blame in this too, but so does the USA.  Not something most Americans want to hear.


----------



## granfire (Nov 30, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> It is sad that before Russia invaded Adganastan, the culture there was changing from the inside.  Women were allowed education in many parts, especially Kabul.  There were even women doctors practicing medicine.  Then Russia invaded and the Taliban took power over from them.  Then regression happened for women's rights in a large way.



Not sure how things went before the russians went in, but they certainly were supportive of the system.

Which meant in turn the West was against it, just because. So goody, we are at fault, for supporting and arming the reactionary forces. 
And fueling the 30 year civil war.

And yet, I get flak for stating that women's rights in the West are not that stable of a thing, that a great deal of men secretly envy their Middle Easter counterparts for being able to chain the woman to the hearth.


----------



## Tgace (Nov 30, 2012)

You should get flak...its untrue. A few nuts maybe, a "great deal"??? Only if you buy into that "war on women" pap.


----------



## granfire (Nov 30, 2012)

Tgace said:


> You should get flak...its untrue. A few nuts maybe, a "great deal"??? Only if you buy into that "war on women" pap.



good.
and you are deliberately obtuse.
Just READ the comments. About birth control for starters, abortion and 'legitimate rape'
Those are all attempts to turn the clock back and throw us into the stone ages again. 
There is no desire for equality. Let's keep the white male in power please.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Nov 30, 2012)

granfire said:


> And yet, I get flak for stating that women's rights in the West are not that stable of a thing, that a great deal of men secretly envy their Middle Easter counterparts for being able to chain the woman to the hearth.



I doubt that many men envy that; just basing that on over 50 years of being an American male and knowing a lot of American males.  I've never heard that sentiment expressed and I've never felt that way myself.

I will say, however, that those men who might want that sort of thing do not have to look far to find it.  From your basic conservative religious household to the more, shall we say, fundamentalist-type religious in America, families can be found that range from a more 'traditional' role for women in the family all the way to women as basic property in all but name.  And I'm talking about everything from the breakaway polygamist Mormon cults to the Lubavitcher to the Amish.  Men who want that sort of life can find it here in America without looking all the way to the Middle East or Islam.


----------



## GrandmasterP (Nov 30, 2012)

You got that right about the polygamist Mormons Bill.
Spent a while in Cedar City (plygville) Utah a couple of years back to do with work. Not much sign of female emancipation there.


----------



## aedrasteia (Nov 30, 2012)

Tgace said:


> So obviously these countries dont REALLY have a problem with this..I mean "violence" is everywhere...people stab their girlfriends...nothing unusual here.
> 
> Whatev.



your perspective duly noted.  and remembered.


----------



## granfire (Nov 30, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I doubt that many men envy that; just basing that on over 50 years of being an American male and knowing a lot of American males.  I've never heard that sentiment expressed and I've never felt that way myself.
> 
> I will say, however, that those men who might want that sort of thing do not have to look far to find it.  From your basic conservative religious household to the more, shall we say, fundamentalist-type religious in America, families can be found that range from a more 'traditional' role for women in the family all the way to women as basic property in all but name.  And I'm talking about everything from the breakaway polygamist Mormon cults to the Lubavitcher to the Amish.  Men who want that sort of life can find it here in America without looking all the way to the Middle East or Islam.



you are skirting the point.

Naturally they don't SAY it.
But express it.

By statements I referred to and the actions you are mentioning.
Non of those 'gentlemen' give two figs about women's rights. 
A woman has the right to cook his meals, wax his pole and bear his sons.
and to keep the yap shut.


----------



## WC_lun (Nov 30, 2012)

Gran, while there is definitley a segment of the population that views women through the lens you mention, most men in the US do not.  A large hint of this is our recent election.  If you'll notice, those far right canidates that had opinions regarding women and womens' right that were more in line with the 18th century were not elected.  It would be correct to say they lost a lot of the female vote, but they didn't do themselves any favors with most males either.

I think there definitley is a subset of our male population that view women as inferior, most men do view them as equalls.  For most of us, that is just the norm.


----------



## granfire (Nov 30, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> Gran, while there is definitley a segment of the population that views women through the lens you mention, most men in the US do not.  A large hint of this is our recent election.  If you'll notice, those far right canidates that had opinions regarding women and womens' right that were more in line with the 18th century were not elected.  It would be correct to say they lost a lot of the female vote, but they didn't do themselves any favors with most males either.
> 
> I think there definitley is a subset of our male population that view women as inferior, most men do view them as equalls.  For most of us, that is just the norm.



Dein Wort in Gottes Ohr....

Then ones _vocal_ about their ideas were not elected.

I don't believe that the sentiment is that rare. 
Especially in the US a lot of men have a hard time living up to certain male stereotypes. 
IMHO it makes a wonderful breeding ground for sexism and homophobia (another thing that is more common than different), add to that a large segment of the population that adheres to strict religious code....
No, they are not going to say it, they are not going to mean it when they stand across from you (though there are still pockets who prefer to go over a woman's head in certain areas, just ask women who drive big trucks or a shopping for such), but there is this disconnect.

 We have come a great long way in a few decades, but currently the pendulum seems to be swinging backwards again.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 30, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> What an odd mind you have. Who said anything about bombing them? Did anything I say to lead anyone to think I want them bombed? No one is saying they should adopt Western values, if bombing people is your idea of Western values perhaps we'd all be better without them. We are talking human rights, the right of women and girls not to be beaten, raped and forcably married off. To be able to go to school without being shot or having acid thrown over them, the right not to have to be pregenat at 13, the right to make choices.
> 
> If you have to troll do you think you could either be cleverer at it or do it somewhere else?


I should hope it is vastly different from yours, but why don't you take a look at the first thread and answer your own question.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Dec 1, 2012)

granfire said:


> you are skirting the point.
> 
> Naturally they don't SAY it.
> But express it.
> ...



I don't think I skirted the point at all; I addressed it head on.  I agree with you.

We also have to consider, in fairness, that some women choose that lifestyle of their own free will.  One can argue that they have been trained, raised, or otherwise enculturated to believe that their religion, their God, or their society requires they take on a submissive role or simply a more traditional role in a patriarchal society, but given the option, they choose to remain where they are, being who they are.  I don't know how you end that, or even if it is necessary to do so.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 2, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> I should hope it is vastly different from yours, but why don't you take a look at the first thread and answer your own question.




What first thread? No idea what you are talking about, I'm on this thread and I haven't said anything about bombing anyone.


As for it being about Moslems I've said several times it's isn't, it's about the customs of an area and there are several different beliefs and religions involved including Christians in these areas. The circumcision of women is campaigned against strongly I should add, I don't know what campaigns are active in America but I do know here female mutilation is a big issue in here and in Europe.

As for the idea that because it's a 'cultural' issue the fact thet women are so badly treated should be ignored is laughable. Should we ignore slavery, genocide, child soldiers just because it's not our 'culture'? the world found that South Africa's apartheid policies were unacceptable in modern time, they could not morally ignore it so political and economic pressure was brought to bear on the South Africans, civil rights groups campaigned all around the world. Anti Apartheid activists in South African were supported and helped....that's how we help these women. There are groups in these countries trying to help, they need support, we can lay both economic and political pressure to bear on these countries. It can be done, it's not good enough to wash your hands when so many are suffering. It's also no good excusing lack of action by saying that women chose to live like this, they don't have a choice at the moment, they need choices, if they still want to live like that after equality for women has been established then fine, at least they will have made informed choices. At the moment in Afghanistan the choice most women have is servitude or suicide. The few women who do step up, like the first female army officer were assassinated as was a female police chief. 

The one good thing the Soviets did do while they occupied Afghan was to push for the equality of women, it did make the women of a generation realise there was more for them, how cruel it must have been to have been pushed back into the ways of the Taliban.

Groups in Afghan   http://www.rawa.org/index.php and how they'd like help http://www.rawa.org/help.htm

http://www.afghanistanwomencouncil.org/ http://www.afghanistanwomencouncil.org/new-page-5.htm


http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime/violence-against-women-girls/female-genital-mutilation/

http://www.global-alliance-fgm.org/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2681191.stm


----------

