# Jeff Speakman and Kenpo 5.0



## MJS

Looking at the Jan. 07 issue of Black Belt, there is an article on Jeff, one of his students, and his new Kenpo 5.0 material.

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on where he is taking the art.  Lets not turn this into a bash session on the man.  

Mike


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## Doc

MJS said:


> Looking at the Jan. 07 issue of Black Belt, there is an article on Jeff, one of his students, and his new Kenpo 5.0 material.
> 
> I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on where he is taking the art.  Lets not turn this into a bash session on the man.
> 
> Mike



Start by designating it as HIS art not THE art.


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## matt.m

I found it a very interesting read


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## Danjo

Looks like he slapped on some BJJ to what he already had. He teaches this on video?


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## MJS

Doc said:


> Start by designating it as HIS art not THE art.


 
Ok, lets start again.  I'm curious to know what everyone thinks of what he is doing to *his* version of the art.  

Mike


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## MJS

Danjo said:


> Looks like he slapped on some BJJ to what he already had. He teaches this on video?


 
Apparently he has a video series that is supposed to be coming out.  There has been alot of talk about it on the KN.  I was just looking to see what everyone else thought of what he was doing.

Mike


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## Danjo

MJS said:


> Apparently he has a video series that is supposed to be coming out. There has been alot of talk about it on the KN. I was just looking to see what everyone else thought of what he was doing.
> 
> Mike


 
Well, I think you can learn certain things from a video such as kata if you already have the basics down, but the idea of learning anything beyond that I am very sceptical of as I have said before. They're great for supplemental work, but not for actual instruction on anything very technical. I REALLY don't see how you can get good at grappling from watching videos.


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## dianhsuhe

Well I finally read that article today...I enjoyed it and it seemed to me to be well thought-out and a logical progression based in a post 1993 UFC world.  I like fish-hooking as much as the next bloke but it seems like my fingers might get bit off!  

I did not catch the "video learning" part however.  I am not a fan of learning via video but I suppose that is up to the individual...

In my opinion the ground should be avoided as much as the opponent- it will be more unpredictable, it will hit just as hard, and even be more forgiving than my opponent.  My first move when on the ground is to try my darndest to get back up.


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## James Kovacich

Danjo said:


> 1) Well, I think you can learn certain things from a video such as kata if you already have the basics down,
> 
> 2) but the idea of learning anything beyond that I am very sceptical of as I have said before. They're great for supplemental work,
> 
> 3) but not for actual instruction on anything very technical.


 
It's easy to "flip the coin" on that one.

1) I think many will post that learning  kata through video training one misses all the fine-tuning and "can" ingrain error into their muscle memory.

2) Supplemental, definately. 

3) As you stated in #1 having the basics down is a plus but I think from a technical standpoint, training via video is far more effective training a systems fight attributes rather than something complex like a kata which at the end of the they will not be able to use. 

If you just want to go through the motions, then you can learn practically anything in the martial art with video. But if you want to learn something with substance through video it wouldn't be kata. Even learning from an instructor, it takes many years to decifer the kata and to be able to apply the techniques in a real situation. 

"Just about anyone" can effectively learn fight attributes through video.


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## Jonathan Randall

Danjo said:


> Well, I think you can learn certain things from a video such as kata if you already have the basics down, but the idea of learning anything beyond that I am very sceptical of as I have said before. They're great for supplemental work, but not for actual instruction on anything very technical. I REALLY don't see how you can get good at grappling from watching videos.


 
If it's the same, or nearly the same, art then I think you can learn Kata passably well - provided you have hundreds of actual class hours under your belt. Right now I'm rather successfully (so far, at least!) re-learning the Heian Katas via DVD. However; for the life of me, I don't see how someone without grappling training could pick up grappling skills from video. Perhaps a few useful tricks (I did from BJJ videos - but I already had 4+ years of Judo), but not the art itself. This concerns me if Mr. Speakman actually intends to teach, test and certify students via video. Heck, even the Karate Connnection (one of the first video training orgs.) admits that groundwork is important to well rounded self-defence skills - but it is not possible to teach effectively strictly from video.


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## MJS

Danjo said:


> Well, I think you can learn certain things from a video such as kata if you already have the basics down, but the idea of learning anything beyond that I am very sceptical of as I have said before. They're great for supplemental work, but not for actual instruction on anything very technical. I REALLY don't see how you can get good at grappling from watching videos.


 
I agree.  Trying to learn from a tape is not the best way to learn.  It seems that Jeff is adding this material to fill a void.  Do you think that this is necessary?  If grappling really is in Kenpo, why would he be taking the time to add this material in?


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## Danjo

akja said:


> It's easy to "flip the coin" on that one.
> 
> 1) I think many will post that learning kata through video training one misses all the fine-tuning and "can" ingrain error into their muscle memory.
> 
> 2) Supplemental, definately.
> 
> 3) As you stated in #1 having the basics down is a plus but I think from a technical standpoint, training via video is far more effective training a systems fight attributes rather than something complex like a kata which at the end of the they will not be able to use.
> 
> If you just want to go through the motions, then you can learn practically anything in the martial art with video. But if you want to learn something with substance through video it wouldn't be kata. Even learning from an instructor, it takes many years to decifer the kata and to be able to apply the techniques in a real situation.
> 
> "Just about anyone" can effectively learn fight attributes through video.


 
1. No doubt. By having the basics down, I mean REALLY having them down.

3. Like I said, I'm sceptical. not like I haven't been wrong before though.


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## Danjo

MJS said:


> I agree. Trying to learn from a tape is not the best way to learn. It seems that Jeff is adding this material to fill a void. Do you think that this is necessary? If grappling really is in Kenpo, why would he be taking the time to add this material in?


 
I think it has to do with a basic problem in Kenpo and Karate as taught in the USA for the past forty years or so. Tournaments, and the techniques required to be successful in them had taken the front seat ever since these arts have been introduced to the public at large. After the PKA etc. was established, you saw a slight move away from the tournament fighting and a move into kick-boxing skills. Then, when the UFC came in 1993, everyone realized that they had been leaving out a very important part of their studies: GROUND WORK. I think that many didn't realize that their art ever contained effective groundwork originally because they had never been taught it. So, when they realized the need for it, they simply tried to insert BJJ or whatever they could find (Including freestyle wrestling). Those that never left groundwork out of their teaching pretty much kept on doing what they were doing.

Most of the original ground work in the Karate and Kenpo styles had to do with take downs, throws and locks and holds. Not a lot of wrestling. If you went to the ground, you escaped and got back up. Motobu, Funakoshi, Chow etc. all had grappling techniques in their original curriculum. It just didn't really involve very much rolling around on the ground.

If you notice that the Gracies are not nearly as dominant in the MMA stuff as they were ten years ago, you might also notice it's because people have largely learned how to sprawl and get back to their feet if they're taken down. People like Chuck Liddell are prime examples of this. can he grapple? Yes, but he mainly uses it to avoid takedowns and get back to his feet so he can start hitting again.


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## MJS

Danjo said:


> I think it has to do with a basic problem in Kenpo and Karate as taught in the USA for the past forty years or so. Tournaments, and the techniques required to be successful in them had taken the front seat ever since these arts have been introduced to the public at large. After the PKA etc. was established, you saw a slight move away from the tournament fighting and a move into kick-boxing skills. Then, when the UFC came in 1993, everyone realized that they had been leaving out a very important part of their studies: GROUND WORK. I think that many didn't realize that their art ever contained effective groundwork originally because they had never been taught it. So, when they realized the need for it, they simply tried to insert BJJ or whatever they could find (Including freestyle wrestling). Those that never left groundwork out of their teaching pretty much kept on doing what they were doing.
> 
> Most of the original ground work in the Karate and Kenpo styles had to do with take downs, throws and locks and holds. Not a lot of wrestling. If you went to the ground, you escaped and got back up. Motobu, Funakoshi, Chow etc. all had grappling techniques in their original curriculum. It just didn't really involve very much rolling around on the ground.
> 
> If you notice that the Gracies are not nearly as dominant in the MMA stuff as they were ten years ago, you might also notice it's because people have largely learned how to sprawl and get back to their feet if they're taken down. People like Chuck Liddell are prime examples of this. can he grapple? Yes, but he mainly uses it to avoid takedowns and get back to his feet so he can start hitting again.


 
I still havent read the full article in BB, but it seems to me that this is along the lines Jeff is trying to take it...simple moves to get back up, rather than prolong the process by staying on the ground rolling.

In your opinion, do you feel that some of the techniques in the system, or parts of them, can be used laying down?


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## Danjo

MJS said:


> I still havent read the full article in BB, but it seems to me that this is along the lines Jeff is trying to take it...simple moves to get back up, rather than prolong the process by staying on the ground rolling.
> 
> In your opinion, do you feel that some of the techniques in the system, or parts of them, can be used laying down?


 
Boy do I feel silly now. You're right. It doesn't really advocate staying on the ground.I read too hastily and thought the article advocated adding ground work to Kenpo, but it looks like it was saying the opposite. 

Well, looking at it more carefully....I'd say his idea is pretty sound. The techniques do look like they came out of BJJ though: side-mount, guard, sweep etc.

_"What would you do if you were taken to the ground in the street by someone with a knowledge of MMA?" says Speakman, "There really wasn't a system indigenous to kenpo to deal with that problem."_

However, I still argue that there WERE grappling moves in Kenpo from the beginning. Even a quick look at Mitose's first book shows a LOT of grab defenses and escapes. Just because it was left out of mainstream teaching for years, doesn't mean it was never there.


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## Jonathan Randall

MJS said:


> I still havent read the full article in BB, but it seems to me that this is along the lines Jeff is trying to take it...simple moves to get back up, rather than prolong the process by staying on the ground rolling.
> 
> In your opinion, do you feel that some of the techniques in the system, or parts of them, can be used laying down?


 
I'd go along with that. Just teaching someone how to sprawl, bridge, guard and, for life and death matters, apply a collar choke, will have doubled, IMO, the stand up fighter's chances in a self-defence encounter. Maybe we're, myself, at least,  too quick to judge Mr. Speakman?


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## Danjo

Jonathan Randall said:


> I'd go along with that. Just teaching someone how to sprawl, bridge, guard and, for life and death matters, apply a collar choke, will have doubled, IMO, the stand up fighter's chances in a self-defence encounter. Maybe we're, myself, at least, too quick to judge Mr. Speakman?


 
Right. He's basically saying that the Kenpo he learned had no way to deal with grappling, and so he had to find a way to deal with that. It doesn't mean that no one else's Kenpo had no way to deal with it, but his was lacking that component.Sort of brings back the stuff that Doc has said over the years about what was being taught at the end of Mr. Parker's life publicly eh?


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## MJS

Danjo said:


> _"What would you do if you were taken to the ground in the street by someone with a knowledge of MMA?" says Speakman, "There really wasn't a system indigenous to kenpo to deal with that problem."_
> 
> However, I still argue that there WERE grappling moves in Kenpo from the beginning. Even a quick look at Mitose's first book shows a LOT of grab defenses and escapes. Just because it was left out of mainstream teaching for years, doesn't mean it was never there.


 
I agree.  I consider a grab or choke along the lines of standing grappling.  While I'm not familiar with the book you mention, I curious if there were defenses when you were on the ground.  

With the MMA 'craze', I think that having some basic knowledge is a big plus.  Looking at some of the pics., I see a bad position being reversed, some strikes, an escape and a finishing move done while standing, ie: a stomp, kick to the downed opponent.


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## MJS

Jonathan Randall said:


> I'd go along with that. Just teaching someone how to sprawl, bridge, guard and, for life and death matters, apply a collar choke, will have doubled, IMO, the stand up fighter's chances in a self-defence encounter.


 
Agreed.  Looking at some of the UFC fighters such as Maurice Smith, who trained with Frank Shamrock, he did just enough ground work to survive the initial assault, fend off any further attack, and get back to his feet, to finish where he was stronger.




> Maybe we're, myself, at least, too quick to judge Mr. Speakman?


 
IMHO, I tip my hat to Jeff.  I have not been 'around the block' as many times as some others have, so I can only go by what I have seen in the Kenpo world, and that wasn't too much ground work.  There are elements of grappling and weapons in the art.  However, I personally like to expand upon that area.  IMO, if one really wants to learn to defend against something, its good to understand what it is that we're trying to defend against.  

Looking outside the box is never a bad thing, and as I said, IMO, Jeff is on the right track.


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## MJS

Danjo said:


> Right. He's basically saying that the Kenpo he learned had no way to deal with grappling, and so he had to find a way to deal with that. It doesn't mean that no one else's Kenpo had no way to deal with it, but his was lacking that component.Sort of brings back the stuff that Doc has said over the years about what was being taught at the end of Mr. Parker's life publicly eh?


 
I for one, would be very interested in hearing from those that did have that way in their Kenpo.


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## Danjo

MJS said:


> I agree. I consider a grab or choke along the lines of standing grappling. While I'm not familiar with the book you mention, I curious if there were defenses when you were on the ground.


 
Well, i don't have Mitose's book in front of me. It's in a storage space at present, but looking at Parker's first book, it sure had a lot of grappling counters in it. Bear hugs, wrist grabs, chokes, side head locks, arm bars, traps, two-on-one grab counters, hammer locks, full nelsons, takedowns, legs sweeps. etc. It's the first book published in 1960 "Kenpo Karate: Law of the Fist and the Empty Hand" It says right in it that it is not a comprehensive manual of techniques, so I wonder if he also taught how to deal with being on the ground and escaping that? That will have to be answered by those that were there. But again, from what it shows, there was a lot of grappling in Kenpo Karate in the beginning.


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## Jonathan Randall

Danjo said:


> Well, i don't have Mitose's book in front of me. It's in a storage space at present, but looking at Parker's first book, it sure had a lot of grappling counters in it. Bear hugs, wrist grabs, chokes, side head locks, arm bars, traps, two-on-one grab counters, hammer locks, full nelsons, takedowns, legs sweeps. etc. It's the first book published in 1960 "Kenpo Karate: Law of the Fist and the Empty Hand" It says right in it that it is not a comprehensive manual of techniques, so I wonder if he also taught how to deal with being on the ground and escaping that? That will have to be answered by those that were there. But again, from what it shows, there was a lot of grappling in Kenpo Karate in the beginning.


 
Well, given that Parker was a Judo BB, I'd be surprised if there weren't - at least in the beginning.

The stuff Speakmans described as teaching sound like what I wish I had learned in Kenpo.


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## Gufbal1982

Actually, there's a picture that if you look closely it's unrealistic.  He's still in "Kenpo land" and doesn't expect the person to do any type of attacking back.  there's a technique that i remember seeing where he's doing a double leg takedown to get into side control.  he's doing the double leg wrong and he will be kneed in the head...so much for his bjj additions.  you have to understand where to use your ranges and how to place them correctly together.  it's like a puzzle.  kenpo gives you the pieces and you have to figure out where the glue goes to put those pieces together.  speakman is trying to do that, but he's not there...yet.  not to say that i am all knowing and powerful and i know where everything goes, but i will say that i am an avid student of vale tudo...that's where you learn where everything goes because "everything goes" in vale tudo.  for those of you that don't speak portuguese, vale tudo translates to "everything goes."  all the really good fighters in pride fighting championship study it.  it has all the elements of kenpo and then some!  kenpo has sooo many holes, and it's kind of cool that speakman is trying to figure out how to fill the holes in the kenpo game, but just taking some bjj isn't going to help.  he should learn to incorporate greco roman wrestling because that's actually the gap between striking to grappling...


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Gufbal1982 said:


> Actually, there's a picture that if you look closely it's unrealistic. He's still in "Kenpo land" and doesn't expect the person to do any type of attacking back. there's a technique that i remember seeing where he's doing a double leg takedown to get into side control. he's doing the double leg wrong and he will be kneed in the head...so much for his bjj additions. you have to understand where to use your ranges and how to place them correctly together. it's like a puzzle. kenpo gives you the pieces and you have to figure out where the glue goes to put those pieces together. speakman is trying to do that, but he's not there...yet. not to say that i am all knowing and powerful and i know where everything goes, but i will say that i am an avid student of vale tudo...that's where you learn where everything goes because "everything goes" in vale tudo. for those of you that don't speak portuguese, vale tudo translates to "everything goes." all the really good fighters in pride fighting championship study it. it has all the elements of kenpo and then some! kenpo has sooo many holes, and it's kind of cool that speakman is trying to figure out how to fill the holes in the kenpo game, but just taking some bjj isn't going to help. he should learn to incorporate greco roman wrestling because that's actually the gap between striking to grappling...


 
ex-So. Cal. USSD mentions Vale Tudo...I'm gonna swag here. You training with Ruas in south OC? I think his crew had a better demeanor than some of the MMA dens that opened in that area. But that's my own perspective.

Regards,

Dave


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## Danjo

Gufbal1982 said:


> Actually, there's a picture that if you look closely it's unrealistic. He's still in "Kenpo land" and doesn't expect the person to do any type of attacking back. there's a technique that i remember seeing where he's doing a double leg takedown to get into side control. he's doing the double leg wrong and he will be kneed in the head...so much for his bjj additions. you have to understand where to use your ranges and how to place them correctly together. it's like a puzzle. kenpo gives you the pieces and you have to figure out where the glue goes to put those pieces together. speakman is trying to do that, but he's not there...yet. not to say that i am all knowing and powerful and i know where everything goes, but i will say that i am an avid student of vale tudo...that's where you learn where everything goes because "everything goes" in vale tudo. for those of you that don't speak portuguese, vale tudo translates to "everything goes." all the really good fighters in pride fighting championship study it. it has all the elements of kenpo and then some! kenpo has sooo many holes, and it's kind of cool that speakman is trying to figure out how to fill the holes in the kenpo game, but just taking some bjj isn't going to help. he should learn to incorporate greco roman wrestling because that's actually the gap between striking to grappling...


 
I think the guy he's in the picture with has an MMA background as both a fighter and referee. Which picture are you referring to?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Gufbal1982 said:


> Actually, there's a picture that if you look closely it's unrealistic. He's still in "Kenpo land" and doesn't expect the person to do any type of attacking back. there's a technique that i remember seeing where he's doing a double leg takedown to get into side control. he's doing the double leg wrong and he will be kneed in the head...so much for his bjj additions. you have to understand where to use your ranges and how to place them correctly together. it's like a puzzle. kenpo gives you the pieces and you have to figure out where the glue goes to put those pieces together. speakman is trying to do that, but he's not there...yet. not to say that i am all knowing and powerful and i know where everything goes, but i will say that i am an avid student of vale tudo...that's where you learn where everything goes because "everything goes" in vale tudo. for those of you that don't speak portuguese, vale tudo translates to "everything goes." all the really good fighters in pride fighting championship study it. it has all the elements of kenpo and then some! kenpo has sooo many holes, and it's kind of cool that speakman is trying to figure out how to fill the holes in the kenpo game, but *just taking some bjj isn't going to help. he should learn to incorporate greco roman wrestling because that's actually the gap between striking to grappling*...


 
BJJ is, basically, the submissions of judo/japanese jujutsu, with wrestling transitions to achieve them. Since you're in (or were) So. Cal (and possibly, OC), there was an old wrestler of olympic fame around Lake Forest. For all I know, he's passed away or retired...this was about 12-15 years ago. My BJJ commuting and training partner (used to have to drive to Torrance to the Gracie Academy to get the stuff) joined the wrasslers for some conditioning, having wrestled himslef in college. Mentioning Rorion to the wrestler, he sez, "How is little Rorion?". 

Little? Yep. He was hired to come down to the Gracie compound waaaay back in the day when Rorion was about 12 years old, and train the gang in greco-roman and freestyle. Speakman may not be using it, or the guys who he picked it up from may not be teaching it (or may not have been taught it, but I find that hard to believe), but in BJJ proper, the wrestling transitions are certainly there.

Be good and train hard,

Dave


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## Gufbal1982

I don't remember which picture it was because I didn't buy the magazine, and am still waiting for my copy in the mail.  However, I think it's the 3rd in the series of pictures...don't quote me on it though.  

DAVE:  I don't live in Orange County.  I don't train with Marco Ruas.  I train in a garage with a partner that I trust that's trained in the styles.  

However, before you start attacking me, realize I did give props to Speakman for trying to fill in the kenpo holes with BJJ...I just don't think he represented it well in the magazine.


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## James Kovacich

Danjo said:


> If you notice that the Gracies are not nearly as dominant in the MMA stuff as they were ten years ago, you might also notice it's because people have largely learned how to sprawl and get back to their feet if they're taken down. People like Chuck Liddell are prime examples of this.
> *1)* *can he grapple? Yes, but he mainly uses it to avoid takedowns and get back to his feet so he can start hitting again*.
> 
> *2)* However, I still argue that there WERE grappling moves in Kenpo from the beginning. Even a quick look at Mitose's first book shows a LOT of grab defenses and escapes. Just because it was left out of mainstream teaching for years, doesn't mean it was never there.


1)Thats the key. The truth comes from the "understanding" of the secondary art. How long it takes to achive that understanding varies but to achieve the understanding takes more than "thinking" I already have it because it's somewhere in my system.

2) True but most standup arts could use a better understanding of the ground. You already answered the best answer with the Lidell analogy. 

Lidell dosent mention it much but he has a purple belt in BJJ.


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## Tenguru

Pretty much every single MMA fighter trains BJJ.  Even if they don't like to grapple, they train it so they know how to defend against it's attacks.

As far as learning grappling from your "stand up" teacher .... that's rediculous.  Learn grappling from a grappler.  I trained Ke(n|m)po for about 6 years. Even the grappling defenses that we practiced were flawed because the grappling attacks were done incorrectly.  Do you see the problem?


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## Ray

Tenguru said:


> Pretty much every single MMA fighter trains BJJ. Even if they don't like to grapple, they train it so they know how to defend against it's attacks.
> 
> As far as learning grappling from your "stand up" teacher .... that's rediculous. Learn grappling from a grappler. I trained Ke(n|m)po for about 6 years. Even the grappling defenses that we practiced were flawed because the grappling attacks were done incorrectly. Do you see the problem?


 
Here's a quote from you from a different thread


Tenguru said:


> Let me point out that MY IMPRESSION of the entire Shaolin Kempo ranking structure is that it is designed to make money for the company, not to provide any accurate measure of fighting ability. In fact, MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE is that most of the practitioners I trained with (and learned from) sucked at actual hand-to-hand combat.


 
Does this just mean that the kenpo training your received before switching to MMA (or BJJ) was just plain faulty?


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## Danjo

Tenguru said:


> Pretty much every single MMA fighter trains BJJ. Even if they don't like to grapple, they train it so they know how to defend against it's attacks.
> 
> As far as learning grappling from your "stand up" teacher .... that's rediculous. Learn grappling from a grappler. I trained Ke(n|m)po for about 6 years. Even the grappling defenses that we practiced were flawed because the grappling attacks were done incorrectly. Do you see the problem?


 
It's only ridiculous if the stand up instructor doesn't know about grappling. I'm not arguing against cross training, but rather that it was too broad of a statement to make to say that Kenpo had no way to deal with MMA fighters before 5.0.


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## Tenguru

Ray said:


> Does this just mean that the kenpo training your received before switching to MMA (or BJJ) was just plain faulty?



Yes, some of it was flawed.  My problem with some of the training was the methodology.  I like Ke(m|n)po, but in general I'm not so sure it's taught the way it used to be.  Of course, there are exceptions.


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## Tenguru

Danjo said:


> It's only ridiculous if the stand up instructor doesn't know about grappling. I'm not arguing against cross training, but rather that it was too broad of a statement to make to say that Kenpo had no way to deal with MMA fighters before 5.0.



Let me clarify.  I'm saying that learning grappling from a non-grappler does not make sense.  If your instructor, be it Kempo, KungFu, Tae Bo, etc, is an experienced and competent grappler, then take advantage of the instruction.  If your instructor is competent at a non-grappling art, but is teaching you grappling techniques he learned off of the internet or DVD's, then that will get  one in to trouble.


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## Danjo

Tenguru said:


> Let me clarify. I'm saying that learning grappling from a non-grappler does not make sense. If your instructor, be it Kempo, KungFu, Tae Bo, etc, is an experienced and competent grappler, then take advantage of the instruction. If your instructor is competent at a non-grappling art, but is teaching you grappling techniques he learned off of the internet or DVD's, then that will get one in to trouble.


 
No doubt.


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## Tenguru

Danjo said:


> It's only ridiculous if the stand up instructor doesn't know about grappling. I'm not arguing against cross training, but rather that it was too broad of a statement to make to say that Kenpo had no way to deal with MMA fighters before 5.0.



I don't think I implied that Kenpo had no way to deal with MMA fighters.  I'm saying that it is better to learn grappling from someone who has specialized experience in grappling.  Why not learn from an expert, and then incorporate it into your existing skill set?


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## Danjo

Tenguru said:


> I don't think I implied that Kenpo had no way to deal with MMA fighters. I'm saying that it is better to learn grappling from someone who has specialized experience in grappling. Why not learn from an expert, and then incorporate it into your existing skill set?


 
Speakman said it, not you. See the quote from him in one of the above posts.


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## Tenguru

Danjo said:


> Speakman said it, not you. See the quote from him in one of the above posts.



Oh ok. I missed that.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Gufbal1982 said:


> I don't remember which picture it was because I didn't buy the magazine, and am still waiting for my copy in the mail.  However, I think it's the 3rd in the series of pictures...don't quote me on it though.
> 
> DAVE:  I don't live in Orange County.  I don't train with Marco Ruas.  I train in a garage with a partner that I trust that's trained in the styles.
> 
> However, before you start attacking me, realize I did give props to Speakman for trying to fill in the kenpo holes with BJJ...I just don't think he represented it well in the magazine.



I had no intention of attacking you. I was trying to guess at where you might train, based on your posts. Sorry if anything I said seemed antagonistic. 

D.


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## MJS

Gufbal1982 said:


> Actually, there's a picture that if you look closely it's unrealistic. He's still in "Kenpo land" and doesn't expect the person to do any type of attacking back. there's a technique that i remember seeing where he's doing a double leg takedown to get into side control. he's doing the double leg wrong and he will be kneed in the head...so much for his bjj additions. you have to understand where to use your ranges and how to place them correctly together. it's like a puzzle. kenpo gives you the pieces and you have to figure out where the glue goes to put those pieces together. speakman is trying to do that, but he's not there...yet. not to say that i am all knowing and powerful and i know where everything goes, but i will say that i am an avid student of vale tudo...that's where you learn where everything goes because "everything goes" in vale tudo. for those of you that don't speak portuguese, vale tudo translates to "everything goes." all the really good fighters in pride fighting championship study it. it has all the elements of kenpo and then some! kenpo has sooo many holes, and it's kind of cool that speakman is trying to figure out how to fill the holes in the kenpo game, but just taking some bjj isn't going to help. he should learn to incorporate greco roman wrestling because that's actually the gap between striking to grappling...


 
Before I comment on your post, I would like to say one thing.  In the beginning, I stated that I *do not* want this thread to turn into a bashing session on Speakman.  If that is your intention, either with this post or with future ones, I suggest its ends now.  

Now, as for your post.  Perhaps you picked up the issue in the store and glanced through it, but I have my copy sitting in front of me.  Let me ask you...do you study BJJ or any grappling related arts?  I see nothing that resembles a double leg.  If you're talking about the pics on page 76, it states that he uses his left hand to strike to the groin. He is not making an attempt to double leg.  He is lifting the leg leg, as clearly shown in the pic.  If you've watched any UFC type fights, you should see this type of lift/takedown.


----------



## MJS

Tenguru said:


> Let me clarify. I'm saying that learning grappling from a non-grappler does not make sense. If your instructor, be it Kempo, KungFu, Tae Bo, etc, is an experienced and competent grappler, then take advantage of the instruction. If your instructor is competent at a non-grappling art, but is teaching you grappling techniques he learned off of the internet or DVD's, then that will get one in to trouble.


 
I agree that learning from a book, tape or dvd is not the best route, and I've said this many times in the past.  A live inst. is the best way to go.  However, that was not the point of this thread.  I was looking for thoughts on what he is doing as far as the grappling goes, with his Kenpo.  

Mike


----------



## donald

I thought the question was, what do we think of the direction of Mr.Speakman's kenpo? I would like to know what his kenpo is about. I read on a post by Amylong. That she went from 24/Tatum, to 16-20/Speakman. Why, is there a big difference in the "systems"? If so, what are the major differences? Am I correct in stating that Mr.Tatum's kenpo is more of a traditional version? In other words more of what Mr.Parker taught him. Rather than a "version" of what he was taught. Thanks for your consideration.
1stJohn1:9


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## Brian Jones

donald said:


> I thought the question was, what do we think of the direction of Mr.Speakman's kenpo? I would like to know what his kenpo is about. I read on a post by Amylong. That she went from 24/Tatum, to 16-20/Speakman. Why, is there a big difference in the "systems"? If so, what are the major differences? Am I correct in stating that Mr.Tatum's kenpo is more of a traditional version? In other words more of what Mr.Parker taught him. Rather than a "version" of what he was taught. Thanks for your consideration.
> 1stJohn1:9


 
  Donald, 
    Essentially, yes.  Mr. Tatum teaches what Mr. Parker taught him with, as I udnerstand it no changes.  Now remember Mr. Speakman was also one of Mr. Tatum's students.  It appears, without my knowing for sure, that Mr. Speakman is simply taking the Kenpo he has been taught and looking at some different applications and scenarios.

Brian Jones


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## donald

I was not aware of Mr.Speakman's ties to Mr.Tatum! I had been under the impression that he(Mr.S.)was a private student of Mr.Parker's?


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## Brian Jones

I am not under Mr. Tatum or Mr. Speakman's lineage, so I will try to get this as straight as possible. Mr. Speakman began with Mr. Tatum and then toward the end of Mr. Parker's life, he became a private student of Mr. Parker.  But there are probably more knowlegable people who can verify this.

Brian Jones


----------



## Flying Crane

Danjo said:


> Well, i don't have Mitose's book in front of me. It's in a storage space at present, but looking at Parker's first book, it sure had a lot of grappling counters in it. Bear hugs, wrist grabs, chokes, side head locks, arm bars, traps, two-on-one grab counters, hammer locks, full nelsons, takedowns, legs sweeps. etc. It's the first book published in 1960 "Kenpo Karate: Law of the Fist and the Empty Hand"


 
All of this is still in Tracys kenpo.  I don't know the EPAK curriculum.  Has this stuff been removed?


----------



## Brian Jones

No it hasn't been removed.  In fact most of the attacks are the same, but the response to the attacks has changed. But you will still find EpAK techniques against headlock, hammerlock, bear hug, bear hug whiel somoenone else is punching you, come alongs and figure four come alongs.

Brian Jones


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## Gufbal1982

MJS said:


> Before I comment on your post, I would like to say one thing. In the beginning, I stated that I *do not* want this thread to turn into a bashing session on Speakman. If that is your intention, either with this post or with future ones, I suggest its ends now.
> 
> Now, as for your post. Perhaps you picked up the issue in the store and glanced through it, but I have my copy sitting in front of me. Let me ask you...do you study BJJ or any grappling related arts? I see nothing that resembles a double leg. If you're talking about the pics on page 76, it states that he uses his left hand to strike to the groin. He is not making an attempt to double leg. He is lifting the leg leg, as clearly shown in the pic. If you've watched any UFC type fights, you should see this type of lift/takedown.


 
First off, I do study BJJ (which has its roots in JJJ)as well as Japanese JuJitsu (which is strictly standing joint locks.) and a bunch of other styles that go very well with Kenpo. I got my copy in the mail today.  I will honestly say I didn't read the captions until I got my copy today.  Just glancing at it quickly though in the store, you do have to admit that it looks like a really bad double leg.  After reading the captions, I saw that it isn't and that's why I questioned what he was doing.  However, don't take this the wrong way, but in that picture on 76, what is Speakman doing with his right arm after the groin strike?  I'm not trying to attack him or this thread, but I'd like to know as a martial artist.  It doesn't look like it's doing anything functional, really.  I actually do watch UFC all the time as well as Pride FC, IFL, WEC, The Gracie Fighting Challenge and any other tournaments/bouts I can get a hold of.  I also study Greco Roman wrestling, so let me ask another question.  In the sequence with the roundhouse kicks followed by a takedown, how would the takedown be effective with Speakman having double underhooks when Trever Sherman has the better position for a takedown?  Just asking about the effectiveness.  I will repeat I'm not trying to attack anyone.


----------



## James Kovacich

Brian Jones said:


> I am not under Mr. Tatum or Mr. Speakman's lineage, so I will try to get this as straight as possible. Mr. Speakman began with Mr. Tatum and then toward the end of Mr. Parker's life, he became a private student of Mr. Parker. But there are probably more knowlegable people who can verify this.
> 
> Brian Jones


Short version from Speakmans mouth at a seminar in '04. I doubt he would lie especially with Tom Kelly in the room wathching everything.

Speakman was a Goju black belt under Lou Angel and was headed for California. Angel sent him to Parker. Speakman started with Parker but Parker sent him to Tatum who he felt would teach Speakman well. Later Parker changed his mind and called Speakman to train under him.

I think thats the story he told. I wasn't really interested at the time but he gave us a brief version of his history.


----------



## MJS

Gufbal1982 said:


> First off, I do study BJJ


 
Out of curiosity, who do you study with?




> Just glancing at it quickly though in the store, you do have to admit that it looks like a really bad double leg.


 
To be honest with you, the thought of a double leg never entered my mind.  Looking at that pic., he's not in a correct position, so I never even thought that he'd be attempting a move like that, from the position he is in.



> but in that picture on 76, what is Speakman doing with his right arm after the groin strike?


 
Having an arm over the shoulder, should take some of the pressure off of the neck.  From there, it looks like he's going for that lift/takedown, to get side control.




> In the sequence with the roundhouse kicks followed by a takedown, how would the takedown be effective with Speakman having double underhooks when Trever Sherman has the better position for a takedown?


 
Pic #6.  Jeff is taking his right foot, placing it behind Trevors left.  From there, the foot is trapped, and Jeff  drives backwards, effecting a takedown.  Pic #7 pretty much has Jeff in a mount.

One thing to keep in mind...we can speculate about pics all day long.  Fact remains, this is one reason why having a live inst. to show the proper sequence is key.  Trying to figure something out from a picture, tape or dvd is going to be pretty hard.

Mike


----------



## Gufbal1982

I train with a friend of mine in his garage because I trust him to not injure me.  I had a shoulder surgery (ACH reconstruction) from some guy that I grappled with when I had no experience, and well he did.  Long story and I'm not going to tell it because I'll be bashing.  However, I am going to start training with John Machado soon...just as soon as my shoulder finishes the last of it's rehab. from a surgery that happened almost 3 years ago.


----------



## Brian Jones

akja said:


> Short version from Speakmans mouth at a seminar in '04. I doubt he would lie especially with Tom Kelly in the room wathching everything.
> 
> Speakman was a Goju black belt under Lou Angel and was headed for California. Angel sent him to Parker. Speakman started with Parker but Parker sent him to Tatum who he felt would teach Speakman well. Later Parker changed his mind and called Speakman to train under him.
> 
> I think thats the story he told. I wasn't really interested at the time but he gave us a brief version of his history.


 
Yep: That's pretty much the story as I heard it as well.

Brian Jones


----------



## Flying Crane

I have read thru the article.

I also have minimal instruction in judo.  Grappling and ground fighting are by far the weakest chink in my armor and I know that and never try to claim any sort of expertise in that arena.

I have no connection to Mr. Speakman at all, and I am not even an EPAK guy, I'm a Tracys guy.

That being said, I think there might be a bit of over analyzing going on here on the basis of a magazine article.  I don't think this article, nor the photos attached to it, are designed nor intended to instruct in the finer points of what Mr. Speakman is doing with kenpo.  This is a magazine article, not an instruction manual.  He is simply showing and discussing brief and simple examples.  In this context, I don't think he would be concerned about presenting things exactly right, because it's not the venue to do so.  Photos that get taken for a magazine article are chosen for aesthetic reasons, and that may preclude and ignore the finer points of technique.  But I am sure if one were to study with Mr. Speakman, these finer points would be addressed.  Actual training would be the proper venue for this, not a brief magazine article that is simply meant to inform the public, in the briefest, shallowest way possible, of what Mr. Speakman has been up to.

I think it needs to be kept in perspective.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Flying Crane said:


> All of this is still in Tracys kenpo. I don't know the EPAK curriculum. Has this stuff been removed?


 
Hey Michael.  I wouldn't say removed..more like moved to a different place in the system.  Buat as far as the strict sequence of the techniques.....yes some of the techniques in the book "Kenpo Karate: Law of the fist and of the Empty Hand" have been removed.


----------



## Doc

donald said:


> I was not aware of Mr.Speakman's ties to Mr.Tatum! I had been under the impression that he(Mr.S.)was a private student of Mr.Parker's?



Jeff Speakman received his black belt from Lou Angel in Goju, than relocated to Southern California to study kenpo at the West Los Angeles (previously Santa Monica) school. He trained with and was promoted to black, under and by Larry Tatum, as many other Parker black belts who have bad memories where they actually got there black from. Larry Tatum taught and promoted most of them.

After Larry Tatum was dismissed from Mr. Parker's employ, those not black became students of Larry's black belt Brian Hawkins. Ed Parker than began teaching most Thursday nights when he was available, to keep the school together and retain those Tatum black belts. Thus they all became occasional one day a week, group class Parker students. Parker was not there every week, but was reasonably consistent.

When the movie opportunity presented itself, Parker worked with Jeff on the movie project and fight choreography, as well as in a small group session on Wednesday's at noon for an hour at his house along with Brian Hawkins, and Barbera Hale. This was in an effort to capitalize on the publicity and "branding" of Kenpo in the movie, and to expand his business by opening more schools under his direct control. (He only had 2 and only the Larry tatum run West LA school made money.) Parker was teaching his last ideas for his commercial school expansion.

After Parker passed, Jeff became a student of mine for less than a year and started his own organization in partnership with Brian Hawkins. When they decided to part company, Jeff started his current organization.

Occasionally you will hear stories of students caliming they 'lived' with Ed Parker while they trained. In listening to these claims you must define 'lived.' Dennis Conatser 'lived' with Mr. Parker. Tom Kelly 'lived' with Mr. Parker, Steve LaBounty 'lived' with Mr. Parker, etc. Many of us spent the night at Parker's house at one time or another, (usually around Internationals time), so we all 'lived' with Ed Parker. No one however lived with Mr. Parker for any extended period of time beyond a week or so.


----------



## MJS

Flying Crane said:


> That being said, I think there might be a bit of over analyzing going on here on the basis of a magazine article. I don't think this article, nor the photos attached to it, are designed nor intended to instruct in the finer points of what Mr. Speakman is doing with kenpo. This is a magazine article, not an instruction manual. He is simply showing and discussing brief and simple examples. In this context, I don't think he would be concerned about presenting things exactly right, because it's not the venue to do so. Photos that get taken for a magazine article are chosen for aesthetic reasons, and that may preclude and ignore the finer points of technique. But I am sure if one were to study with Mr. Speakman, these finer points would be addressed. Actual training would be the proper venue for this, not a brief magazine article that is simply meant to inform the public, in the briefest, shallowest way possible, of what Mr. Speakman has been up to.
> 
> I think it needs to be kept in perspective.


 
Good points!   While the topic seems to have drifted a bit towards the article, this was and is not my intention to discuss that.  As you said, it is just that..an article.  My point of the thread however, was to talk about what he is doing with Kenpo and grappling.  There are a few folks here, who have been around a long time, and had the chance to train with Mr. Parker on a regular basis.  I'd be very interested in hearing if any of the ground situations were addressed as in-depth, as what Speakman is doing.

HIS art, THE art....this is what I would like to talk about. 

Mike


----------



## thatdude

How many schools does speakman have?

What rank is he now?


----------



## OneKickWonder

I recently came across the issue of Black Belt that has an article about Jeff Speakman's Kenpo 5.0  The principles of this curriculum are that he took Ed Parker's system and adapted it to the ground. A few techniques or basics were dropped and new ones added. He worked together with his senior student who is also a well versed grappler to create the new curriculum. My instructor and I were thinking about doing the same thing before we saw this. What are some peoples thoughs on this. I am sure everyone knows that Mr. Speakman was a student of Mr. Parker so I am sure there are mixed feelings out there.


----------



## Blindside

OneKickWonder said:


> I recently came across the issue of Black Belt that has an article about Jeff Speakman's Kenpo 5.0 The principles of this curriculum are that he took Ed Parker's system and adapted it to the ground. A few techniques or basics were dropped and new ones added. He worked together with his senior student who is also a well versed grappler to create the new curriculum. My instructor and I were thinking about doing the same thing before we saw this. What are some peoples thoughs on this. I am sure everyone knows that Mr. Speakman was a student of Mr. Parker so I am sure there are mixed feelings out there.


 
similar discussion at:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42140

Lamont


----------



## MJS

Just as a note, I merged these two threads together seeing that they're on the same topic.  We have a good discussion going so far, and I'd really be interested in hearing more feedback.

Mike


----------



## Dkjr86

my instructor had a copy of the demo he sent out to some of his akks guys and honestly his grappling seemed to be less than impressive. i will give him credit for trying to be innovative and i do believe grappling is something that is worthwhile for any martial artist but if his demo is any indication kenpo 5.0 will not be worth learning. Much better off learning how to grapple from one of the traditional grappling arts, that shouldnt be a shocker


----------



## OneKickWonder

I dont think his intent was to produce outstanding grapplers. I think his intent is to orient students to the ground not so that they can dominate there but to make them comfortable there so they can still be effective. Learning the basics of grappling and then learning how to adapt kenpo basics to the ground is a good idea i think. Most grappling arts in present time teach grappling as a sport form, not a self defense. Kenpo is made for self defense. Using tactics like an eagle's claw to the throat or a hammerfist to the groin are illegal in competition but perfectly ok if you are attacked and dragged to the ground. Kenpo 5.0 reminds people of this fact.


----------



## Danjo

Doc,
Does SL4 have techniques that allow one to deal with takedowns and escapes from the ground? I know Kajukenbo does since it's regularly covered By Prof. Bishop in our classes.

I'm trying to figure out how original this idea is to Kenpo. Seems like it would have been covered before 5.0.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Dkjr86 said:


> my instructor had a copy of the demo he sent out to some of his akks guys and honestly his grappling seemed to be less than impressive. i will give him credit for trying to be innovative and i do believe grappling is something that is worthwhile for any martial artist but if his demo is any indication kenpo 5.0 will not be worth learning. Much better off learning how to grapple from one of the traditional grappling arts, that shouldnt be a shocker


 
Agreed.


----------



## DavidCC

Danjo said:


> Doc,
> Does SL4 have techniques that allow one to deal with takedowns and escapes from the ground? I know Kajukenbo does since it's regularly covered By Prof. Bishop in our classes.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out how original this idea is to Kenpo. Seems like it would have been covered before 5.0.


 
I can't speak for anyone who is regularly at MSU, but I can tell you my 1st hand experience there.

While at MSU I saw them working on a technique wherein the Kenpo student was on the ground and the attacker was standing over them striking downwards.  Since we do some JJ at my school I had to give that a try. So I volunteered to be the attacker and before I could spell "GnP" I was on my back in a painful wrist-lock / elbow compression / cross-face (all at the same time) under side control.  He could have broke my wrist, dislocated my elbow, and gouged out my eye with very little I could do about it (thereby effecting an escape LOL)

Once you can do a horse-stance up to the SL-4 specification you can resist a _significant_ amount of forward pressure.  Is that sufficient to avoid a decent single or double leg takedown (pressure + leverage)?  Not by itself.  But, it gives you more options on where to go from there.  You've got 2 choices - avoid or resist.  Sprawl = avoid... 

Grappling is just a "range"   Control your depth LOL


----------



## Doc

Danjo said:


> Doc,
> Does SL4 have techniques that allow one to deal with takedowns and escapes from the ground? I know Kajukenbo does since it's regularly covered By Prof. Bishop in our classes.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out how original this idea is to Kenpo. Seems like it would have been covered before 5.0.



Hello sir. Yes these things are an integral part of the Kenpo curriculum, and always has been. However, much of these elements were NOT included in the commercial curriculum based on "motion."

When you go back to those who were around before the current crop of "seniors," you'll find teachers like the late Dave German, Dan inosanto, Dave Hebler, Steve LaBounty, Steve Hearring, Jim Grumwald, etc who remember when breakfall training was a part of 'basics' in preparation for the throws, takedowns, and groundwork.

A visit to old film of Ed Parker performing techniques with Chuck Sullivan in the late fifties, will show all of the techniques ended with a takedown and/or breakfall.

Even a reasonable examination of the commercial motion system curriculum indicates 3/4's of the techniques are in concept, for some form of 'hands on' grappling that, unfortunately are never explored by the bulk of its instructors because they were never taught how to deal with these technique responses.

However, I have Parker video as recently as the early seventies, showing 'breakfalls and rolls' were still included in the 'basics' for the commercial system. But, these things proved to be 'too physical' and limited the market potential and were dropped by most.

That's not to suggest that very physical kenpo schools do not exist. Take a stroll down to Bob White's and bring your heavy duty cup, mouthguard, and your "I know I'm going to get tagged" attitude, if you want to survive. Some of the old "Ironworker" teachers still teach these things.

I submit Jeff is just attempting to fill the holes in his own training as well as find a marketing niche for information neither Parker or I gave him. Considering the commercial systems general weaknesses, it's probably not a bad idea, if implimented correctly.

In my teaching, these things are taken for granted. As an example, last night students were required to perform techniques on padded attackers who were instructed to ignore all controlled strikes and attempt to grapple and smother the defender. They were oblidged to use 'torso contact only' to control the depth of the attacker and finish the technique sequence regardless of the intensity of the attempted 'grappler.' No one left their feet, and al completed the technique sequences.


----------



## Kenpodoc

Doc said:


> In my teaching, these things are taken for granted. As an example, last night students were required to perform techniques on padded attackers who were instructed to ignore all controlled strikes and attempt to grapple and smother the defender. They were oblidged to use 'torso contact only' to control the depth of the attacker and finish the technique sequence regardless of the intensity of the attempted 'grappler.' No one left their feet, and al completed the technique sequences.


Now I'm really jealous. sounds like a great class.

Jeff


----------



## Danjo

Doc said:


> Hello sir. Yes these things are an integral part of the Kenpo curriculum, and always has been. However, much of these elements were NOT included in the commercial curriculum based on "motion."
> 
> When you go back to those who were around before the current crop of "seniors," you'll find teachers like the late Dave German, Dan inosanto, Dave Hebler, Steve LaBounty, Steve Hearring, Jim Grumwald, etc who remember when breakfall training was a part of 'basics' in preparation for the throws, takedowns, and groundwork.
> 
> A visit to old film of Ed Parker performing techniques with Chuck Sullivan in the late fifties, will show all of the techniques ended with a takedown and/or breakfall.
> 
> Even a reasonable examination of the commercial motion system curriculum indicates 3/4's of the techniques are in concept, for some form of 'hands on' grappling that, unfortunately are never explored by the bulk of its instructors because they were never taught how to deal with these technique responses.
> 
> However, I have Parker video as recently as the early seventies, showing 'breakfalls and rolls' were still included in the 'basics' for the commercial system. But, these things proved to be 'too physical' and limited the market potential and were dropped by most.
> 
> That's not to suggest that very physical kenpo schools do not exist. Take a stroll down to Bob White's and bring your heavy duty cup, mouthguard, and your "I know I'm going to get tagged" attitude, if you want to survive. Some of the old "Ironworker" teachers still teach these things.
> 
> I submit Jeff is just attempting to fill the holes in his own training as well as find a marketing niche for information neither Parker or I gave him. Considering the commercial systems general weaknesses, it's probably not a bad idea, if implimented correctly.
> 
> In my teaching, these things are taken for granted. As an example, last night students were required to perform techniques on padded attackers who were instructed to ignore all controlled strikes and attempt to grapple and smother the defender. They were oblidged to use 'torso contact only' to control the depth of the attacker and finish the technique sequence regardless of the intensity of the attempted 'grappler.' No one left their feet, and al completed the technique sequences.


 
Thanks Doc, Somehow I knew this would be your answer.


----------



## Tenguru

OneKickWonder said:


> Most grappling arts in present time teach grappling as a sport form, not a self defense. Kenpo is made for self defense. Using tactics like an eagle's claw to the throat or a hammerfist to the groin are illegal in competition but perfectly ok if you are attacked and dragged to the ground. Kenpo 5.0 reminds people of this fact.



I'm not sure if you are implying that people who compete within rule sets don't know the difference between sport and streetfighting.  I would bet that someone trained in grappling would not have a problem eye poking, eagle clawing, thumb to the temple, etc, in a street fight.  In fact, knowing how to grapple would probably allow them to get into better positions to apply those type of attacks.


----------



## OneKickWonder

Tenguru said:


> I'm not sure if you are implying that people who compete within rule sets don't know the difference between sport and streetfighting. I would bet that someone trained in grappling would not have a problem eye poking, eagle clawing, thumb to the temple, etc, in a street fight. In fact, knowing how to grapple would probably allow them to get into better positions to apply those type of attacks.


 

I am not saying that they would not know how or not be comfortable. The BJJ schools that I have attended did not practice any kind of striking at all. To a Kenpo practitioner fighting "dirty" for self preservation comes as instinct because that is what we are taught from the very beginning. But to the people who dont practice this, they may not think about it. If they do think about it then I am sure they will not hesitate to use it, but it would probably be more instinct for them to reach for a submission or choke, which is also an effective manuever, unless you have a finger in your eye. All I am saying is that Mr. Speakman's training makes it more natural and instinctive to transition with these strikes and teq.s on the ground.


----------



## MJS

OneKickWonder said:


> I am not saying that they would not know how or not be comfortable. The BJJ schools that I have attended did not practice any kind of striking at all. To a Kenpo practitioner fighting "dirty" for self preservation comes as instinct because that is what we are taught from the very beginning. But to the people who dont practice this, they may not think about it. If they do think about it then I am sure they will not hesitate to use it, but it would probably be more instinct for them to reach for a submission or choke, which is also an effective manuever, unless you have a finger in your eye. All I am saying is that Mr. Speakman's training makes it more natural and instinctive to transition with these strikes and teq.s on the ground.


 
Good post!  I've said similar things in the past.  If the old saying, "You fight like you train" holds true, then one would think that if someone was not training for an eye poke, but instead more for the submission game, doing that eye poke is not going to be second nature.  

Of course, I think that some are missing the point of what Speakman is doing.  He program is, AFAIK, not geared towards submissions, but instead, how to get out of a bad position.  The last place I want to be in a fight, is on the ground, so I'm going to want to get back to my feet asap.

Mike


----------



## Doc

MJS said:


> ... If the old saying, "You fight like you train" holds true, then one would think that if someone was not training for an eye poke, but instead more for the submission game, doing that eye poke is not going to be second nature.



Correct sir. However more importantly, by ignoring certain facets of a street fight because it is not allowed or a part of competition lulls one into defensive lapses. Consider how many submission moves, locks, holds, etc you would not do if you knew up front that your attacker was allowed to thrust his thumbs as deep into your eye socket as he could. Or even more simply, how many of these things could you do and still avoid being bitten? Something to think about, yes?

Grapplers are good at what they do for a couple of reasons. From day one they train to be physically dominant and effective. There is no, "I coulda got you in a lock." You can either do it or you can't, and their opponant is actively physically resisting them. There is no physical ambiguity about anything they do. They prove it, as opposed to "I coulda exploded your speen with my devastating reverse punch to the body." On the other hand, because of this method of training, much is excluded or never considered in their quest for dominance in competition. Bottom line, if you want to learn how to not get bitten or eye poked, you need to train in an environment where the possibility is considered AND accounted for.


----------



## MJS

Doc said:


> Correct sir. However more importantly, by ignoring certain facets of a street fight because it is not allowed or a part of competition lulls one into defensive lapses. Consider how many submission moves, locks, holds, etc you would not do if you knew up front that your attacker was allowed to thrust his thumbs as deep into your eye socket as he could. Or even more simply, how many of these things could you do and still avoid being bitten? Something to think about, yes?
> 
> Grapplers are good at what they do for a couple of reasons. From day one they train to be physically dominant and effective. There is no, "I coulda got you in a lock." You can either do it or you can't, and their opponant is actively physically resisting them. There is no physical ambiguity about anything they do. They prove it, as opposed to "I coulda exploded your speen with my devastating reverse punch to the body." On the other hand, because of this method of training, much is excluded or never considered in their quest for dominance in competition. Bottom line, if you want to learn how to not get bitten or eye poked, you need to train in an environment where the possibility is considered AND accounted for.


 
Points taken sir.:asian:


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## Rich_Hale

Jeff was a classmate of mine at Larry's for a number of years and Doc, as usual, laid out the basic info exactly right.

All I can add is that I was there when Jeff trained for and received his black, under Larry and that he did have a close relationship with Mr. Parker, even before Larry left the Santa Monica school.

Jeff was always a great workout partner and a good friend. Considering all his involvement in Kenpo, I can appreciate him trying to add a little something of his own to the art.

Keep in mind that Jeff isn't trying to change Mr. Parker's art, as Larry and Mr. Parker taught it to him, he is just doing what a lot of us are doing - which is trying to keep up with our potential opponent's skill sets.

Jeff just happens to be a more famous than the rest of us, so let's not be overly critical of him, just because he is so well known.

I'll post one of our Thursday night group photos - in a separate post, so you can pick out some of the group. It should be easier that the last one Doc had me post.


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## Kenpo1981

*I think we need to realize that groundfighting is grappling, but all grappling is not groundfighting. I think Mr. Speakman is taking kenpo in a new and useful direction by including ground defenses. He just got into it so let's give him a chance to work on it, form it, revise, etc.*

*I have studied some groundfighting in the past and I can assure you it is for real and changes a fight dramatically. I'm a retired police officer who used groundfighting in the street where necessary and it worked great. That's real world, not practice on the mats. I used standup kenpo stuff, too, on the streets, for real, not practice on the mats.*

*There's a lot of knowledge out there and some of it is useful to graft into kenpo. There's nothing wrong with knowledge and adaptibility. Mr. Speakman is on a good road. Let's not bash him for trying something different. It took Mr. Parker a lot of years to bring kenpo to where it was when he passed from where it was as he received it. I salute Mr. Speakman for his efforts. Keep kenpo a brotherhood, not a bunch of backstabbing naysayers.*


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## Monadnock

Rich_Hale said:


> Jeff was a classmate of mine at Larry's for a number of years and Doc, as usual, laid out the basic info exactly right.
> 
> All I can add is that I was there when Jeff trained for and received his black, under Larry and that he did have a close relationship with Mr. Parker, even before Larry left the Santa Monica school.
> 
> Jeff was always a great workout partner and a good friend. Considering all his involvement in Kenpo, I can appreciate him trying to add a little something of his own to the art.
> 
> Keep in mind that Jeff isn't trying to change Mr. Parker's art, as Larry and Mr. Parker taught it to him, *he is just doing what a lot of us are doing - which is trying to keep up with our potential opponent's skill sets.*
> 
> Jeff just happens to be a more famous than the rest of us, so let's not be overly critical of him, just because he is so well known.
> 
> I'll post one of our Thursday night group photos - in a separate post, so you can pick out some of the group. It should be easier that the last one Doc had me post.


 
Or trying to stay ahead 

I also think it's great he has continued to evolve his Kenpo. I believe that was Mr. Parker's intentions. Kenpo was never a closed box.


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## TigerCraneGuy

Hi everyone,

As someone currently training in 5.0 here in Oz (the other end of the world), I'd like to reassure all concerned that there are no video-ranking certifications. Nada. Zip. Thankfully, to progress in our art, we still need to actually practice with a qualified instructor at a proper 5.0 School.

No easy way to excellence. 

And no rest for the wicked

Best regards,
TCG

P.S. - And yes, it's constantly drilled into us that a) we are strikers, and that b) when it comes to the ground, the strategy is to escape and get back on our feet. Moreover, the transition from standup to the ground and back happens frequently and dynamically in heavy-contact 'alive' sparring sessions.


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## toejoe2k

TigerCraneGuy said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> As someone currently training in 5.0 here in Oz (the other end of the world), I'd like to reassure all concerned that there are no video-ranking certifications. Nada. Zip. Thankfully, to progress in our art, we still need to actually practice with a qualified instructor at a proper 5.0 School.
> 
> No easy way to excellence.
> 
> And no rest for the wicked
> 
> Best regards,
> TCG
> 
> P.S. - And yes, it's constantly drilled into us that a) we are strikers, and that b) when it comes to the ground, the strategy is to escape and get back on our feet. Moreover, the transition from standup to the ground and back happens frequently and dynamically in heavy-contact 'alive' sparring sessions.


 
I also train in 5.0. I closed a JJJ school to begin training here due to the very obvious hole in my skill set. I traveled to San Antonio to view several different systems and schools. When I saw how the 5.0 guys trained I new that I needed to look no further.

The ground fighting aspects of Kenpo 5.0 are taught in the "ideal phase" - just like everything else. So, when a skilled grappler who normally conducts "alive" training views the application of what I call "dirty grappling" in the SD techniques, he may not care for it. However, when we spar, it's all alive. Since training there, I've had both eyes "dotted", a broken nose, broken bones in my hand, fingers and toes, and numerous bruises and sprains. I would not have it any other way. We fight all the way to the ground with groin strikes and everything else just short of fingers into the eye. Instead, we lay fingers across the eye or put pressure against the bony socket.

From that perspective, the ground fighting techs are suprisingly sound...though not quite perfected. Luckily, "5.0" indicates room for adjustments and improvements as Mr. Speakman has indicated to me explicitly.

I'm only a blue belt in the system now but, I'd be glad to field any questions to the best of my ability. For those I cannot answer, I can ask my instructor.

All I can say about it is I've been in the M.A. game for most of my life and I really love Kenpo and the people in it.  

Peace,


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

toejoe2k said:


> I also train in 5.0. I closed a JJJ school to begin training here due to the very obvious hole in my skill set. I traveled to San Antonio to view several different systems and schools. When I saw how the 5.0 guys trained I new that I needed to look no further.
> 
> The ground fighting aspects of Kenpo 5.0 are taught in the "ideal phase" - just like everything else. So, when a skilled grappler who normally conducts "alive" training views the application of what I call "dirty grappling" in the SD techniques, he may not care for it. However, when we spar, it's all alive. Since training there, I've had both eyes "dotted", a broken nose, broken bones in my hand, fingers and toes, and numerous bruises and sprains. I would not have it any other way. We fight all the way to the ground with groin strikes and everything else just short of fingers into the eye. Instead, we lay fingers across the eye or put pressure against the bony socket.
> 
> From that perspective, the ground fighting techs are suprisingly sound...though not quite perfected. Luckily, "5.0" indicates room for adjustments and improvements as Mr. Speakman has indicated to me explicitly.
> 
> I'm only a blue belt in the system now but, I'd be glad to field any questions to the best of my ability. For those I cannot answer, I can ask my instructor.
> 
> All I can say about it is I've been in the M.A. game for most of my life and I really love Kenpo and the people in it.
> 
> Peace,


 
Mr. Richardson:

It is I -- Dr. Dave from KenpoTalk -- in disguise (sorta). I just had to tell you: One of my big kvetches about modern kenpo is the lack of intensity and contact. I pretty much yearn for the days of yore, when we trained hard enough to break hands, noses, fingers & toeses, get a couple of raccoon eyes & split lips, etc. 

I read your above post and smiled, deeply pleased to know that this level of intensity in training still lives on. I have my own complaints about the 5.0 system, and Jeffs need to avoid bridges while his pocket's full of matches, but I just hadda tell ya -- I loved this post.

Train hard, work whatever parts ain't broken (until you break them too), and keep livin' the martial spirit in kenpo.

D.


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## toejoe2k

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Mr. Richardson:
> 
> It is I -- Dr. Dave from KenpoTalk -- in disguise (sorta). I just had to tell you: One of my big kvetches about modern kenpo is the lack of intensity and contact. I pretty much yearn for the days of yore, when we trained hard enough to break hands, noses, fingers & toeses, get a couple of raccoon eyes & split lips, etc.
> 
> I read your above post and smiled, deeply pleased to know that this level of intensity in training still lives on. I have my own complaints about the 5.0 system, and Jeffs need to avoid bridges while his pocket's full of matches, but I just hadda tell ya -- I loved this post.
> 
> Train hard, work whatever parts ain't broken (until you break them too), and keep livin' the martial spirit in kenpo.
> 
> D.


 
Hello Dr. Dave,

Thanks for the kind words...I believe you to be in California, correct?  If I ever get around that way, it would be my honor to try to keep you from busting me in the mouth and to return the favor....lol

It's no secret that Mr. Speakman has no problem taking occassion with certain people and calling them by name. What I can appreciate, is that I've never heard him (or read about him) picking on a particular system. He tends to go after individual people. I can respect that because, in my attempts to be intellectually honest, I really hate it when people make claims of McDojo-ism about any system or school without ever having set foot in it...it's just a pet peeve of mine.

Suffice it to say, I respect that he doesn't do that. And yes, I'm challenging anyone to walk into a 5.0 school, spend some time with the instructor and tell me that the system is worthless. Granted, some schools and instructors are better than others but, there is always sweat and (nominal) pain involved :ultracool. 

It may not be for everyone but, at least such a person would have grounds to express an informed opinion.

Though my wife always gets very angry when I have to go get something that's busted looked at in the local clinic, she always comes to the realization that it's not worth getting divorced over...


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

toejoe2k said:


> Though my wife always gets very angry when I have to go get something that's busted looked at in the local clinic, she always comes to the realization that it's not worth getting divorced over...


 
That alone makes her sound like a real keeper.

D.


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## thecrow

my teacher and ed worked together on projects, and through round ideas, and more, and i have trained with some of the first kenpo students, and i like what jeff is doing,  he reminds me alot of ed, i did not know ed personally, but stories, books rare videos and old students, i see him as keeping in the spirit of kenpo, the one thing i don't like and only a little, is his take on grappling, it is true we need to know some of this to a point, but here is the thing, we are trying to fight them on there own ground, it can be done, but why, i think we should stay on our own ground with them, keep in the spirit of kenpo, this means pressure points, deadly strikes, bruise the liver, explode a bladder, stop the heart, take out the eyes, and there is a whole system on biting, this is kenpo ground, i look at it is they are trying to take my life when i get on the ground or break a joint, which means i may not be a martial artist any more, or if i am a crippled one, so the ground is deadly ground to me, not play time, it is war, and people die in war, my teacher always said fighting is war, if there going to knock you out, you knock them out, if they are going to break a bone you take something from them, eyes hearing, organ etc, and if they are going to permanently disable you, you take there life, these were the rules of war, sorry but if i go to the ground, it's deadly ground, if some of the grapplers start dying things will change, i do not say this lightly, i value humane life, and love martial arts and it brings me great peace, but it can't be forgotten wu shu-military tactics.


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## Hudson69

Looks good, Kenpo can use a ground game to be more all around but like someone mentioned; it is his version of Kenpo.  In that BB magazine article or the issue before that wasn't there someone else in Kenpo who did something similar?


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## shaolinmonkmark

Hudson69 said:


> Looks good, Kenpo can use a ground game to be more all around but like someone mentioned; it is his version of Kenpo. In that BB magazine article or the issue before that wasn't there someone else in Kenpo who did something similar?


 


keith hackney is doing MMA now too, his fighters are very skilled.
(my school is incorporating it as well!)

http://www.hackneyscombat.com/

cheers!


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## Bigdavid5.0

I have trained under Mr. Speakman for many years and now train under Mr. Pribble.I like the evolution of the system.It's not just throwing Bjj in the mix.It's solving the equation of the way people fight today.It always has been.


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