# Tai Chi Combat Self Defense



## macher

Just curious. Since Tai Chi is a martial art for combat and / or self defense does anyone know how it was originally taught to be functional and effective as quick as possible?


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## Flying Crane

The slow forms are only a portion of the system.  Originally taiji had fast forms as well, and in Chen Village those who really understand the method still train in ways that are very similar to what you might see in any other school teaching a viable combat method.  They use heavy contact and application drills, conditioning and strength training, etc. slow form is only a part of it.

In the West where the combat side is largely not understood, people tend to focus on slow form and often do not realize there is much more to it.


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## macher

Flying Crane said:


> The slow forms are only a portion of the system.  Originally taiji had fast forms as well, and in Chen Village those who really understand the method still train in ways that are very similar to what you might see in any other school teaching a viable combat method.  They use heavy contact and application drills, conditioning and strength training, etc. slow form is only a part of it.
> 
> In the West where the combat side is largely not understood, people tend to focus on slow form and often do not realize there is much more to it.



Thanks. There is a Chen teacher in Philly. I’m going to visit one of his classes. Well he only teaches once a week at Boat House Row in Philly.


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## lansao

One thing we can learn from Tai Chi, apart from the specific forms, is how to practice movement slowly and smoothly enough to write an efficient and continuous network of abstract and angular "tracks" for our muscle memory to traverse. I practice Wing Chun, please don't think me a know-it-all for it. I'm always looking to learn new and carry a beginners mind with me wherever I go. Recently, I recorded my wooden dummy form as it helps me correct mistakes in my practice. In this video, I aim to be as silent as possible, working the dummy slowly with Tai Chi'ish movement in mind. Similarly, the same skill is also useful to Chi Sao practice.
YouTube


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## macher

lansao said:


> One thing we can learn from Tai Chi, apart from the specific forms, is how to practice movement slowly and smoothly enough to write an efficient and continuous network of abstract and angular "tracks" for our muscle memory to traverse. I practice Wing Chun, please don't think me a know-it-all for it. I'm always looking to learn new and carry a beginners mind with me wherever I go. Recently, I recorded my wooden dummy form as it helps me correct mistakes in my practice. In this video, I aim to be as silent as possible, working the dummy slowly with Tai Chi'ish movement in mind. Similarly, the same skill is also useful to Chi Sao practice.
> YouTube



Video isn’t there.


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## lansao

macher said:


> Video isn’t there.



It was just too fast...


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## lansao

lansao said:


> It was just too fast...









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## Flying Crane

lansao said:


> One thing we can learn from Tai Chi, apart from the specific forms, is how to practice movement slowly and smoothly enough to write an efficient and continuous network of abstract and angular "tracks" for our muscle memory to traverse. I practice Wing Chun, please don't think me a know-it-all for it. I'm always looking to learn new and carry a beginners mind with me wherever I go. Recently, I recorded my wooden dummy form as it helps me correct mistakes in my practice. In this video, I aim to be as silent as possible, working the dummy slowly with Tai Chi'ish movement in mind. Similarly, the same skill is also useful to Chi Sao practice.
> YouTube


Well, I would say that taiji is not so much about moving slowly as it is about full body connection.  It is just that the slow practice can help you recognize and understand the connection.  

But slow does not equal taiji.


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## lansao

Flying Crane said:


> Well, I would say that taiji is not so much about moving slowly as it is about full body connection.  It is just that the slow practice can help you recognize and understand the connection.
> 
> But slow does not equal taiji.



That’s way more than fair.


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## lansao

lansao said:


> That’s way more than fair.



Here’s one that I think better demonstrates the body connection you can find with slow practice. I try to let her rip here and make a few mistakes.


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## ChenAn

What Chen village offered today is very far from traditional Chenshi taijiquan.

Modern wrestling aka competitive  tui shou only good within Chen tai chi circles. It’s also modern creation. Tui shou never meant to be for competition. 

It may look impressive but when proficient judo players enters Chen push hands competitions they usually win. Unfortunately, Chinese usually keep quiet about such occasions , so not many people simply don’t know. 

First example comes to mind is Mario Napoli - a yang taiji practitioner with heavy judo background. He won tui shou competition by beating the village “bad ***” older Wang Xian son. There is may be still video on YouTube of this.

The sport fighting exhibited by younger Chenjiahou generation has little or nothing to do with traditional Chen style, it’s more modern sanda training .

Traditional fighting skills slowly washed and faded away. There were few branches which able more less to keep authentic Chenshi  fighting method. Among others Feng Ziqian (although late FZQ was not interested in combative aspect), some representatives of so call small frame xiojia , and some practitioners from Chen Zhaokui line. Chen Zhaokui line best representatives would be his son Chen Yu( my line), Zhen Maozheb and few other CZK students who’s name escapes my mind at the moment.


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## ChenAn

I have a bits and pieces of traditional Chen method on my website here
http://chentaijistudy.com/resources.html


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## JowGaWolf

Flying Crane said:


> Well, I would say that taiji is not so much about moving slowly as it is about full body connection.  It is just that the slow practice can help you recognize and understand the connection.
> 
> But slow does not equal taiji.


correct.  To piggy back on  your statement.



lansao said:


> practice movement slowly and smoothly enough to write an efficient and continuous network of abstract and angular "tracks" for our muscle memory to traverse.



The slow movement helps the practitioner become more aware of the body, how it moves, the muscles involved, subtle shifts in balance, connection of movement and breathing.  As you say it's a full body connection.  Everything begins and ends together.  Everything flows together not so much in the context of transition but in the context of flowing together for the same purpose.  

In boxing pivot the hips to generate power for the punch.  In Tai Chi hit with the entire body..  There's no separation.  If we look at some of the striking arts the strikes are spoke of as "stages" and people will often break it down and explain how each part moves.  With Tai Chi is like one big movement of "relax and move everything together."

it sounds easy but it's very difficult, especially if you are naturally a stiff or tense person.

The good news is that practicing slowly does help but not in the same way that slow movement in Tai Chi has.

Tai Chi is like trying to become aware that that your blood is actually moving through your veins and you can feel it against the wall of your veins with every movement.  Once you learn that then you learn how to feel the same thing from your opponent.  In terms of fast learning.  It's definitely not that. Train  Tai Chi and last, and you'll be guaranteed to have better patience lol.


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## JowGaWolf

ChenAn said:


> What Chen village offered today is very far from traditional Chenshi taijiquan.
> 
> Modern wrestling aka competitive  tui shou only good within Chen tai chi circles. It’s also modern creation. Tui shou never meant to be for competition.
> 
> It may look impressive but when proficient judo players enters Chen push hands competitions they usually win. Unfortunately, Chinese usually keep quiet about such occasions , so not many people simply don’t know.
> 
> First example comes to mind is Mario Napoli - a yang taiji practitioner with heavy judo background. He won tui shou competition by beating the village “bad ***” older Wang Xian son. There is may be still video on YouTube of this.
> 
> The sport fighting exhibited by younger Chenjiahou generation has little or nothing to do with traditional Chen style, it’s more modern sanda training .
> 
> Traditional fighting skills slowly washed and faded away. There were few branches which able more less to keep authentic Chenshi  fighting method. Among others Feng Ziqian (although late FZQ was not interested in combative aspect), some representatives of so call small frame xiojia , and some practitioners from Chen Zhaokui line. Chen Zhaokui line best representatives would be his son Chen Yu( my line), Zhen Maozheb and few other CZK students who’s name escapes my mind at the moment.


From experience on the wrong end of Tai Chi.  It hurts.  A system that is design to attack and counter during points of little to no resistance.    If punch is traveling in a linear direction then tai chi is attacking the punch lateral direction.  The more force the punch has, the more damaging the lateral counter is.

If often reminds me of how American football players get nailed.  Look for the blocks that aren't head-on block.  Look for the blocks that occur where there is the least amount of resistance.  These are often called blindside blocks.  When I was doing push hands this is exactly the feeling I got.  My attacks were constant being blind sided.


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## ChenAn

Lol I have problem with usage of the word “relax”. I’ve seen multiple taiji “noodles” landing on their butt during simple pressure test. Whatever original meaning of that “fan song” relative to martial art, the best way to describe it is “not stagnant” I have Chinese student who often laughs at western translation of original taiji transcript 

By the way slow work usually referred as “jibengong”  a gradual process of grinding gong fu. There are prerequisite however. It’s not just “relax” and feel your muscles with energy. It’s new age hippy things. “Body work” has a specific function, and strict rules are applied on how structure is held during motion. That is why practice is very slow which is quite beater .

For example first Chen form traditionally take 40+ minutes to finish from the beginning to the end. And if all rules apply it’s not easy even for advance practitioner .




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## ChenAn

JowGaWolf said:


> From experience on the wrong end of Tai Chi.  It hurts.  A system that is design to attack and counter during points of little to no resistance.    If punch is traveling in a linear direction then tai chi is attacking the punch lateral direction.  The more force the punch has, the more damaging the lateral counter is.
> 
> If often reminds me of how American football players get nailed.  Look for the blocks that aren't head-on block.  Look for the blocks that occur where there is the least amount of resistance.  These are often called blindside blocks.  When I was doing push hands this is exactly the feeling I got.  My attacks were constant being blind sided.



Yes traditional Chen method prefer less resistance. However, circumstances may present very fast and proficient aggressor. In this case taiji practitioner will discover hard time complying with ideal principles. My  line provides with “ tools” in this case. It’s quick and dirty but still internal and somewhat less resistance(thanks for 20th century upgrade)

By the way exposure to proficient western boxing opponent may contribute to re-evaluation of some orthodox concept . Unfortunately most taiji practitioners using fellow taiji players as partner which often give illusion that things seemingly work. We all saw a vid how taiji guru was beaten by a mean and lousy Chinese MMA guy?


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## JowGaWolf

ChenAn said:


> Lol I have problem with usage of the word “relax”. I’ve seen multiple taiji “noodles” landing on their butt during simple pressure test. Whatever original meaning of that “fan song” relative to martial art, the best way to describe it is “not stagnant” I have Chinese student who often laughs at western translation of original taiji transcript


I was the opposite.  For me Relax was the right translation because I'm naturally tense and Jow Ga training just makes that worst for me.  When I first started Tai Chi it was like I was doing the robot. lol.

A lot of westerners tend to believe that power comes form tension and as a result, we lose a lot of the power that we would have if we relaxed.     But, you are exactly right, the translations aren't as accurate as they could be or should be.


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## JowGaWolf

ChenAn said:


> Unfortunately most taiji practitioners using fellow taiji players as partner which often give illusion that things seemingly work.


Yep.  It's always necessary to "play outside of the box."  Style A vs Style A will often skew understanding of applications and it's not until someone gets into a Style A vs Style B exchange that one will learn if he or she really understands the concepts as well as they thought think they do.  

This is something we see happen over and over again.


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## macher

JowGaWolf said:


> Yep.  It's always necessary to "play outside of the box."  Style A vs Style A will often skew understanding of applications and it's not until someone gets into a Style A vs Style B exchange that one will learn if he or she really understands the concepts as well as they thought think they do.
> 
> This is something we see happen over and over again.



Traditionally how do you learn Tai Chi to start to learn how to defend yourself? Ok I understand it takes many years to master Tai Chi. But there has to be elements of training to so a practitioner can use something right away or quickly.


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## macher

Been watching this guys channel...

formlessfighter

He seems to teach in a way to apply the functionality of the forms. I visited 3 Tai Chi schools and so far haven’t seen Tai Chi taught this way.


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## ChenAn

macher said:


> Traditionally how do you learn Tai Chi to start to learn how to defend yourself? Ok I understand it takes many years to master Tai Chi. But there has to be elements of training to so a practitioner can use something right away or quickly.



You have to find a good qualified teacher to start with. It’s not easy to say the least. I had to travel overseas to find mine.


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## JowGaWolf

macher said:


> Traditionally how do you learn Tai Chi to start to learn how to defend yourself?


It's like everything else.  Before you learn how to do use it to defend yourself, you have to learn how to do the basics and understand the concepts and mechanics of it.  You'll learn how to use the foundational concepts and principals long before you actually learn how to apply the actual techniques.  These will actually start to bleed into what you already know.

For example, I suck at Tai Chi push hands, but I practice it enough to where I became more sensitive to the movements of my opponent, and as a result, this helped me greately with my grappling.  I could feel where my opponent was weak in structure, so instead of trying to meet force with force, I apply force where there is least resistance.  Real world application of this would be.  Someone tries to take me down with a single leg or take down, or even a double leg take down.    All of their energy is moving forward, so instead of me trying to stop forward movement, I can feel where they aren't pushing.  In this case if everything is moving forward then there is no resistance against side way movement,  Even better there is no resistance to twisting motion.  So instead of sprawling I simply allow my opponent's forward motion while I add twisting motion to it. 
See 1:03 on in the video below.  Play it at the slowest speed and you'll see me apply this.





The technique that I did wasn't a Tai Chi technique,  but I did use what I learned in Yang Tai Chi to know when to start the twisting and how to allow the forward movement to continue.  When you watch it in slow motion you can see that the forward movement never stops.


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## JowGaWolf

ChenAn said:


> good qualified teacher to start with. It’s not easy to say the least.


Very difficult.  When I first started, I found people who were good at Tai Chi movement but, I couldn't find anyone who had a real understanding of the applications and the techniques.  It was like I was only finding people who had half of the knowledge.  I didn't find a good Tai Chi teacher until I joined a martial arts school  for the purpose of learning something other than Tai Chi.  Had my teacher not been interested in the the fighting uses of Tai Chi, I would have never learned what I currently know.

Now I get to start my search all over again so I can continue my Tai Chi studies.  I just don't know if it will be Yang or Chen style.  I just want a good teacher who sees it as a martial arts vs a fitness exercise.


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## ChenAn

JowGaWolf said:


> Very difficult.  When I first started, I found people who were good at Tai Chi movement but, I couldn't find anyone who had a real understanding of the applications and the techniques.  It was like I was only finding people who had half of the knowledge.  I didn't find a good Tai Chi teacher until I joined a martial arts school  for the purpose of learning something other than Tai Chi.  Had my teacher not been interested in the the fighting uses of Tai Chi, I would have never learned what I currently know.
> 
> Now I get to start my search all over again so I can continue my Tai Chi studies.  I just don't know if it will be Yang or Chen style.  I just want a good teacher who sees it as a martial arts vs a fitness exercise.



Yes it tough especially for someone who is not familiar with taiji. There are lot of misleading information and teachers that can use carrot stick that leads to nowhere.

P.S. Nice vid ! That’s is the spirit!


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## macher

JowGaWolf said:


> It's like everything else.  Before you learn how to do use it to defend yourself, you have to learn how to do the basics and understand the concepts and mechanics of it.  You'll learn how to use the foundational concepts and principals long before you actually learn how to apply the actual techniques.  These will actually start to bleed into what you already know.
> 
> For example, I suck at Tai Chi push hands, but I practice it enough to where I became more sensitive to the movements of my opponent, and as a result, this helped me greately with my grappling.  I could feel where my opponent was weak in structure, so instead of trying to meet force with force, I apply force where there is least resistance.  Real world application of this would be.  Someone tries to take me down with a single leg or take down, or even a double leg take down.    All of their energy is moving forward, so instead of me trying to stop forward movement, I can feel where they aren't pushing.  In this case if everything is moving forward then there is no resistance against side way movement,  Even better there is no resistance to twisting motion.  So instead of sprawling I simply allow my opponent's forward motion while I add twisting motion to it.
> See 1:03 on in the video below.  Play it at the slowest speed and you'll see me apply this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The technique that I did wasn't a Tai Chi technique,  but I did use what I learned in Yang Tai Chi to know when to start the twisting and how to allow the forward movement to continue.  When you watch it in slow motion you can see that the forward movement never stops.



Nice. Looks like you spar a lot? Many years ago when I was practicing Bagua our teacher focused on application as much as form and we sparred a lot. Unfortunately he moved to the west coast and haven’t found a Bagua or Tai Chi teacher similar since.


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## JowGaWolf

macher said:


> Been watching this guys channel...
> 
> formlessfighter
> 
> He seems to teach in a way to apply the functionality of the forms. I visited 3 Tai Chi schools and so far haven’t seen Tai Chi taught this way.


 I don't know enough to say that he's wrong, but I watched some of the videos of techniques that I was familiar with and I can only say, that's not how I learned the technique or understand it.  I'm specifically referring to this technique.





Keep in mind I watched this without sound, so I can't here what he's saying,  I'm just going on what I'm seeing.

Here's how I understand it.  The move that he's referring to is one of those techniques where 2 things happen at the same time.  One hand "defends" the other hand "prepares", There is forward body movement like it is in the form.  It's like what we were saying before.  Everything moves together.  I'm not saying that it can't be applied as he's showing it.  I'm just saying that I would have never been train to do one thing at one time, which is what he's showing.

In reality there is 3 things going on at the same time if you count the preparation of forward movement with the footwork which he's not using. My sifu would have had me flow through the entire movement which is done in Yang Tai Chi.  The movement looks simple, but there is a lot of stuff that is actually working when you do it.   I don't know if he intentionally left stuff out, or if what you see is how he understands it.  It's difficult to tell without the sound lol.


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## JowGaWolf

macher said:


> Nice. Looks like you spar a lot? Many years ago when I was practicing Bagua our teacher focused on application as much as form and we sparred a lot. Unfortunately he moved to the west coast and haven’t found a Bagua or Tai Chi teacher similar since.


I try to spar whenever I can.  It's just so important when it comes to learning martial arts. It has to be light enough for you to be able to make mistakes and take risks without going to the hospital for it lol.  A lot of understanding is gained with sparring and failing.  When I was teaching I had one day out of the week dedicated to sparring and learning how to apply techniques in sparring. The class was for 2 hours, which was longer than the regular classes. There was a lot of lecturing, concepts, drilling, and me shouting "trust the technique,"  "deal with the lead hand," and "stop bailing out of the technique." 

It's really difficult to find teachers like that because most people don't want to take martial arts to learn how to fight.  They want to take it for health and exercise and for the assumption that they can use it, when the need arises.  If people train it to actually learn how to fight using it, then they would gain everything that they seek and more.


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## JowGaWolf

ChenAn said:


> P.S. Nice vid ! That’s is the spirit!


 Thanks.  it's like riding a bike.  I can talk about it all day, but eventually I'll have to get on it, if I ever hope to be able to ride it. lol


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## macher

JowGaWolf said:


> I was the opposite.  For me Relax was the right translation because I'm naturally tense and Jow Ga training just makes that worst for me.  When I first started Tai Chi it was like I was doing the robot. lol.
> 
> A lot of westerners tend to believe that power comes form tension and as a result, we lose a lot of the power that we would have if we relaxed.     But, you are exactly right, the translations aren't as accurate as they could be or should be.



When I was learning Bagua years ago to learn how to strike for example we were taught loose strikes like being a rag doll which would transition into Fa Jin.


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## DanT

True Tai Chi combat training involves more sparring and conditioning than anything else. Do your forms after you sparred 20 rounds and ran 5 miles and see how you feel.


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## ChenAn

DanT said:


> True Tai Chi combat training involves more sparring and conditioning than anything else. Do your forms after you sparred 20 rounds and ran 5 miles and see how you feel.



Authentic taiji involve hard work, but nothing what you describe here. 


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## macher

ChenAn said:


> Authentic taiji involve hard work, but nothing what you describe here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I guess my question should be how to make Taji functional.


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## ChenAn

macher said:


> I guess my question should be how to make Taji functional.



Taiji is not about beat **** out of  yourself to make things factional . There are plenty of combative sports that can embrace that physical approach.

Few thing to consider. Taiji will not work for everyone. It requires more time spent to get even little combative skills. Taiji can be practiced into advanced age and practitioner still can retain combative skills.  Not of that is true for those method that require external approach and therefore can only be used while practitioner young and fit




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## JowGaWolf

macher said:


> I guess my question should be how to make Taji functional.


Tai chi techniques are already functional.   It's not the system that you have to make function. You are the one that has to be be made functional and the only way to do that is to spar with the purpose of learning how to use Tai Chi techniques.  If you go in with the mind set of winning or beating someone then you'll greatly slow down your learning process.  Spar just hard enough so that you can afford to be hit or kicked in the face when you get a Tai Chi application wrong.  When this happens try to figure out what you did wrong or at least try to figure out why you got hit when you tried to apply the technique.

Video tape your sparring so you can spend hours trying to understand what happened.  Did you apply the wrong technique? was your timing off? did you bail out on the technique? Did you force the technique? Did you almost get the technique right? and Did you shortcut your technique?  are just some of the few questions that you should ask yourself.  

After that go back and practice, and drill until it's time to spar again.  Try again. Fail again.  Try again. Gain some understanding. Succeed.  Move to the next technique and repeat until you Gain some understanding of how the technique works and not how you think it should work.

There will be a lot of failures but don't think of it as failure.  Think of it as learning.  When people learn to play an instrument, they will have a lot of failures and a lot of mistakes before they get it right.  Martial Arts is the same way.   Learn by doing. Learn by failing.


You also have to have a lot of patience with the learning process and yourself.  Tai Chi is very complex in comparison to some of the other Martial Arts systems so it's going to take a while just to grasp some of the basic concepts.  This doesn't mean you are dumb.  It just means that Tai Chi is very complex.  You'll be fine as long as you have the patience for it and a good teacher.


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## DanT

ChenAn said:


> Authentic taiji involve hard work, but nothing what you describe here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Whatever "authentic" means is irrelevant. OP is interested in effective training for combat, not old people martial arts. Training should be external if you want combat skills. "Internal" Chi power is all nonsense.


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## ChenAn

DanT said:


> Whatever "authentic" means is irrelevant. OP is interested in effective training for combat, not old people martial arts. Training should be external if you want combat skills. "Internal" Chi power is all nonsense.



Lol whatever fits your believes. One thing for sure - there no way to avoid getting old  except dying young 


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## JowGaWolf

DanT said:


> not old people martial arts. Training should be external if you want combat skills. "Internal" Chi power is all nonsense.


I think the entire concept of Internal Chi is often abused and greatly misunderstood.  Too many people make it out to be something magical and it's not.   Then you have the "Zen" people that make it into something that it's not.  Like trying to connect with the universe and be all about peace.  Stuff like that breeds an inaccurate understanding of Tai Chi and Internal systems in general.

If you were to train Tai Chi you will discover that all of your focus is Internal  with external systems you will discover that almost all of your focus is External.  I think if people kept it this simple then it would lose a lot of the mystical nonsense that people have about it.


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## ChenAn

“fa li”  can be translated into external physical force. However, the question is not whether one can exert a force, but rather how this force is generated. That where I think most taiji mysteries are born from. What people attribute to “internal” is actually finesse  of gongfu - meaning same amount of power produced with  less physical  demand. And the reason for that is not mystery but rather different biomechanics from conventional combative methods.


Now, in my line we do have our own conditioning that involve a lot of equipment/tools. Each tools serves its purpose in developing stamina and physical fitness within the method. But for example my competitive full contact experience earlier in life brought absolutely no value to taiji ( which I discovered only later in life). Well may be a little - I can fight without taiji lol 

In my practice, I had to teach a fitness  and marine corps martial art instructors . Both well conditioned guys, yet struggled a bit with Chen conditioning. Are they weak ? Of course not. But whenever  we went over usage they laid back on their excess physical strength. Where I could spend 30% they used 110%. And also many techniques did not work for them and often they had to force it in, which quickly lost meaning of taiji in the first place. 








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## macher

DanT said:


> Whatever "authentic" means is irrelevant. OP is interested in effective training for combat, not old people martial arts. Training should be external if you want combat skills. "Internal" Chi power is all nonsense.



If Taiji is similar to Bagua then it can be learnt to get skilled for fighting or self right away. The way I was taught Bagua years ago was loose striking that was to be a transition to Fa Jin. Our teacher said it takes at least 5 years and another 5 years to start on higher levels of Fa Jin but that doesn’t mean you can’t start to learn how to fight right away with Bagua principles.

Bagua speaking I think there’s a big misconception out there that if you’re not doing Fa Jin you’re not doing Bagua similar with Taiji.

I find it hard to believe that originally Taiji wasn’t taught in a way to start to learn to defend yourself without Fa Jin but the use of loose striking or body mechanics.

Why do you have to wait the time it takes for Fa Jin before you’re able to utilize your Taiji?


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## mograph

macher said:


> I understand it takes many years to master Tai Chi. But there has to be elements of training to so a practitioner can use something right away or quickly.


You might want to look into why you would make that assumption. I think it's because many schools want to keep students, and most of us (westerners or urbanites) have short attention spans, and we want to learn a technique that (we think) will defend ourselves right away. 

In my opinion, many "old school" schools teach slowly because they want you to get the _basics_ so you can practice _properly_. A good teacher will teach you in a way that will allow you to fight without too much thinking, so it has to be ingrained through repetition, and accessible through implicit memory ("boom! done!"), not explicit ("do this like this, then do this next") memory. Also, there has to be a consistent set of principles that need to be ingrained, usually full-body usage, and most westerners don't grasp that easily. Once those principles are ingrained implicitly, they can be applied quickly and intuitively.
I think that old school teachers also assume that you want to learn to fight against good fighters rather than drunks, and that the quick 'n' dirty techniques only work against poor fighters.


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## mograph

DanT said:


> "Internal" Chi power is all nonsense.


No, it is just misunderstood. It is just a means of learning how to _distribute_ physical force through the entire body in order to better coordinate movements and structure for greater effect from less effort per-muscle. Many fighters know that the distribution is a good thing ("turn your waist, use your legs"): they just don't call it "internal style," or they just haven't refined it to the level that some internal types have. Or maybe they have. 

The internal types just refer to it as "chi" power because it is _undifferentiated_ (e.g. not using only your triceps) and distributed through a greater volume of the body, so you can't point to specific muscles.

We shouldn't try to imagine, or think that good internal artists are trying to imagine some special, real, magical radiation-energy substance as the basis of their skills. Chi (qi) is more a model, construct, metaphor than many westerners think, and good internal stylists and TCM folk _know_ it's a metaphor or model.

But yes, there's no Jedi-like radiation, electricity sent through your opponent, chi-ball zapping and so on. _That's_ nonsense.


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## JowGaWolf

mograph said:


> A good teacher will teach you in a way that will allow you to fight without too much thinking, so it has to be ingrained through repetition, and accessible through implicit memory ("boom! done!"), not explicit ("do this like this, then do this next") memory.


Yep. as a Good Teacher.  I can say that you are correct.  lol.  But seriously the part about fighting without too much thinking is not easy to come by when trying to apply a technique.  It takes time and the stuff that takes the most time to master isn't the fighting components.  Just understanding the principles and concepts can take a long time to truly understand vs just knowing the answer of what techniques do.

As skilled as MMA fighters are, you'll still see some that can't do the "oblique kick" properly and even fewer actually try to do it at all.  Some things just takes a lot of time and patience in order to learn.


----------



## mograph

JowGaWolf said:


> But seriously the part about fighting without too much thinking is not easy to come by when trying to apply a technique.  It takes time and the stuff that takes the most time to master isn't the fighting components.  Just understanding the principles and concepts can take a long time to truly understand vs just knowing the answer of what techniques do.


Exactly, Good Teacher!  This is why we shouldn't assume that a good teacher will give us something to defend ourselves with _against a good opponent_ right away.


----------



## macher

mograph said:


> Exactly, Good Teacher!  This is why we shouldn't assume that a good teacher will give us something to defend ourselves with _against a good opponent_ right away.



Why not? I would expect a good teacher to show me the principles not just the form.


----------



## JowGaWolf

macher said:


> Why not? I would expect a good teacher to show me the principles not just the form.


The risk with this is that you are shown something that you assume you are ready and able to use.  It breeds false confidence.  It's o.k. to show principles but you have to be careful of how much you show and monitor the students assumptions about what they are doing.  When they get too far beyond what they can actually do, then you'll need to bring them back to reality and simply tell them that they aren't ready to apply the technique.

I've done this on multiple occasions with students.  I do it to myself, and sometimes my sparring partner will hit me in a way to remind me that I still have things to learn.  A perfect example, I was sparring with a student from another school.  He was able to land light "stomp kicks" on my knee.  I couldn't see them coming and he asked me, "You know that I'm thinking of breaking your knee when I kick you there."   I replied yes, and I'll get my act together soon.

Had it been a real fight, I would have been in grave danger with those kicks that I couldn't read.

We always want to make sure that how we see ourselves matches our actual ability to perform the principles of martial arts.   As the Tai Chi vs MMA guy.  I'm pretty sure he felt good about it going into the match and all that changed when he ate some punches.


----------



## macher

JowGaWolf said:


> The risk with this is that you are shown something that you assume you are ready and able to use.  It breeds false confidence.  It's o.k. to show principles but you have to be careful of how much you show and monitor the students assumptions about what they are doing.  When they get too far beyond what they can actually do, then you'll need to bring them back to reality and simply tell them that they aren't ready to apply the technique.
> 
> I've done this on multiple occasions with students.  I do it to myself, and sometimes my sparring partner will hit me in a way to remind me that I still have things to learn.  A perfect example, I was sparring with a student from another school.  He was able to land light "stomp kicks" on my knee.  I couldn't see them coming and he asked me, "You know that I'm thinking of breaking your knee when I kick you there."   I replied yes, and I'll get my act together soon.
> 
> Had it been a real fight, I would have been in grave danger with those kicks that I couldn't read.



Most altercations in real like you won’t be subject to those kicks. Yes you can’t assume that but most of the time it’s not against a skilled fighter.

Against an average Joe all you need is a little more skill. But skill isn’t the key. The key is mentality. For instance a couple of months ago I tested a co worker of mine. I started pushing him and yelling at him. What did he do? He froze. I know for a fact I wouldn’t have froze and wouldn’t let anyone push me. After the first push I would have done something I wouldn’t have froze.


----------



## JowGaWolf

macher said:


> Most altercations in real like you won’t be subject to those kicks. Yes you can’t assume that but most of the time it’s not against a skilled fighter.


Not a risk I'm willing to take because if I'm wrong then I'll get a busted knee for being wrong and thinking that someone was an average Joe and wouldn't do it.  The fix for the problem is to adjust my stance.  I rather just do that be safe and come out with my knees intact.



macher said:


> But skill isn’t the key. The key is mentality.


I'm pretty sure skill is the key.  More specific.  I'm sure it's applicable skill that is the key.  Mentality will only get you so far case in point.  One person's mentality about his fighting ability exceeds his skill set.


----------



## ChenAn

Oh this kiai master is just delusional dude who lives in his imaginary word. His skills only work within close circle of his followers, who in turn brainwashed themselves to believe in his crap.

I don’t think it would be good example of “underestimated” opponent. The guy is just a joke


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## macher

JowGaWolf said:


> Not a risk I'm willing to take because if I'm wrong then I'll get a busted knee for being wrong and thinking that someone was an average Joe and wouldn't do it.  The fix for the problem is to adjust my stance.  I rather just do that be safe and come out with my knees intact.
> 
> I'm pretty sure skill is the key.  More specific.  I'm sure it's applicable skill that is the key.  Mentality will only get you so far case in point.  One person's mentality about his fighting ability exceeds his skill set.



Right but all the skill doesn’t mean anything unless you’re not afraid to defend yourself. I know MA practitioner’s who have the skill but will freeze. I might not be a skilled fighter but I’m certainly not afraid to defend myself. I’m not afraid to fight. The skill such as MA training gives you the edge in the real world.


----------



## JowGaWolf

ChenAn said:


> I don’t think it would be good example of “underestimated” opponent


It's meant to be an example, of how someone who thinks they have the skills and principles to fight when in reality they are missing key components. The same thing happens when someone tries to teach fighting principals right away.  Students walk away without the necessary foundation to use the techniques.  They also walk away with the assumption that they can use those techniques and principles to fight.


----------



## macher

JowGaWolf said:


> It's meant to be an example, of how someone who thinks they have the skills and principles to fight when in reality they are missing key components. The same thing happens when someone tries to teach fighting principals right away.  Students walk away without the necessary foundation to use the techniques.  They also walk away with the assumption that they can use those techniques and principles to fight.



Bad example and proves my point. After the first hit he was done he was scared. His skill is BS anyway look at the beginning of the video.


----------



## JowGaWolf

macher said:


> Right but all the skill doesn’t mean anything unless you’re not afraid to defend yourself.


When you have the skill set and know without a doubt that you can apply it, then that helps to build the courage to stand up.  It's not based on confidence.  It's based on ability and that ability creates confidence.   Many martial arts schools will build confidence without ability and when this happens, the people aren't able to actually use the techniques that they have been training.  

If those MA practitioners skill was based on their ability to apply the techniques then they wouldn't freeze.  They wouldn't freeze because of the type of training that's required to get to the point where you can use against different fighting styles, won't produce a "freeze response."


----------



## JowGaWolf

macher said:


> Bad example and proves my point. After the first hit he was done he was scared. His skill is BS anyway look at the beginning of the video.


His skills are irrelevant because he had the mentally that he could fight.  Having the mentality is all that is needed to defend one's self right?

Just because someone is afraid doesn't mean they can't stomp the mess out of you.

This is why cornered animals and people are so dangerous.


----------



## JowGaWolf

macher said:


> Against an average Joe all you need is a little more skill. But skill isn’t the key. The key is mentality.


This is the statement I'm addressing with the Kai video.  Skill is the key.  More specifically applicable skills.  They guy had the mentality that he could fight and no skills,  If the mentality was the key then he would have done well. 

It's just like singing. There are people who know they can sing because they trained their ability to do so, and as a result have the ability and confidence to sing.  Then there's people who think they can sing, but don't train their ability to sing.  The result is that they don't develop the skill to sing so they go on the mental belief that they can sing 

There is mentality and there is applicable skill, and applicable skill is the key.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

JowGaWolf said:


> Skill is the key.


The important of the following elements in fighting.

1. Courage,
2. Force,
3. MA skill.

1 > 2 > 3.


----------



## macher

JowGaWolf said:


> It's meant to be an example, of how someone who thinks they have the skills and principles to fight when in reality they are missing key components. The same thing happens when someone tries to teach fighting principals right away.  Students walk away without the necessary foundation to use the techniques.  They also walk away with the assumption that they can use those techniques and principles to fight.



I’m not referring to fighting someone in the ring as a sport. But self defense in the real world. Honestly that guy I could tell right away he was scared.


Kung Fu Wang said:


> The important of the following elements in fighting.
> 
> 1. Courage,
> 2. Force,
> 3. MA skill.
> 
> 1 > 2 > 3.



Yep I agree. You first need courage. If you ha e courage you can handle yourself somewhat in most situations. Where I grew up there were people yes even girls/women that had courage and force and nobody messed with them even though they didn’t have trained skill.

Are you goIng to freeze when a situation arises whether you have skill or not.


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## ChenAn

1. Intelligence 


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## macher

ChenAn said:


> 1. Intelligence
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



All the intelligence in the world means nothing if you don’t have the courage. Many many people who MA intelligence will freeze when the situation arises.


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## Buka

macher said:


> For instance a couple of months ago I tested a co worker of mine. I started pushing him and yelling at him. What did he do? He froze. I know for a fact I wouldn’t have froze and wouldn’t let anyone push me. After the first push I would have done something I wouldn’t have froze.



What do you mean by "tested"? Was he in on it, or did you just decide to bully him?


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## ChenAn

macher said:


> All the intelligence in the world means nothing if you don’t have the courage. Many many people who MA intelligence will freeze when the situation arises.



If one is not aware that he freezes under pressure than one had lack of intelligence  Didn’t we just saw a kiai master who had courage to challenge outside fighter and skills to brainwash his students, but unfortunately lacked intelligence to avoid place in  himself in such ridiculous situation?

Courage alone won’t fix stupid 


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## macher

Buka said:


> What do you mean by "tested"? Was he in on it, or did you just decide to bully him?



I bully him. Apologized after he was scared sh*tless.


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## ChenAn

macher said:


> I bully him. Apologized after he was scared sh*tless.



Next time try it Texas  


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## Buka

My old sparring partner, Billy Blanks, is a beast of man. And Billy has trained with, or fought, just about everyone all over the world at one time or another. I asked him once, who the baddest man he ever met in the Martial world was.

He didn't even hesitate. He said his Tai Chi instructor from Pennsylvania, a Master Chan. Told me some great stories. He also said Master Chan's mom, also a life long Tai Chi practitioner, a little bitty woman, was pretty scary. In a nice way.

I never forgot that.


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## macher

ChenAn said:


> If one is not aware that he freezes under pressure than one had lack of intelligence  Didn’t we just saw a kiai master who had courage to challenge outside fighter and skills to brainwash his students, but unfortunately lacked intelligence to avoid place in  himself in such ridiculous situation?
> 
> Courage alone won’t fix stupid
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Obviously he had faulce


Buka said:


> My old sparring partner, Billy Blanks, is a beast of man. And Billy has trained with, or fought, just about everyone all over the world at one time or another. I asked him once, who the baddest man he ever met in the Martial world was.
> 
> He didn't even hesitate. He said his Tai Chi instructor from Pennsylvania, a Master Chan. Told me some great stories. He also said Master Chan's mom, also a life long Tai Chi practitioner, a little bitty woman, was pretty scary. In a nice way.
> 
> I never forgot that.



When I practiced Bagua years ago we went to this school in PA. She was a small Chinese woman and we were there to spar with her students. I would say she was in her mid to upper 70’s. Didn’t know we could spar with her. Being young I decided I wanted to spar with her. She kicked my *** and my pride.  I’ll never forget she used her whole body without any space and I went hard into the wall. Like a shoulder bump. Damn I forget the name.


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## JowGaWolf

macher said:


> I’m not referring to fighting someone in the ring as a sport. But self defense in the real world.


For me it's not this way.  For me it's still the same.  Applicable skill sets develops courage.  Many in my generation used to speak that courage stuff, and some of those same people are dead because they felt they had to prove their courage.

Biggie Smalls and Tupac are like the poster kids for this type of behavior.



macher said:


> All the intelligence in the world means nothing if you don’t have the courage. Many many people who MA intelligence will freeze when the situation arises.


If they are freezing then it's most likely they don't have the applicable skill sets to deal with the situation that they are in.


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## JowGaWolf

macher said:


> I bully him. Apologized after he was scared sh*tless.


lol.. well can't fault you for being honest


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

macher said:


> Most altercations in real like you won’t be subject to those kicks. Yes you can’t assume that but most of the time it’s not against a skilled fighter.



From what you're saying here I don't get why you would want to train tai chi. All you want is something to teach you the quick ways to deal with an untrained fighter? Learn krav maga or an RBSD, that's what their focus is.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

macher said:


> Against an average Joe all you need is a little more skill. But skill isn’t the key. The key is mentality. For instance a couple of months ago I tested a co worker of mine. I started pushing him and yelling at him. What did he do? He froze. I know for a fact I wouldn’t have froze and wouldn’t let anyone push me. After the first push I would have done something I wouldn’t have froze.





macher said:


> I bully him. Apologized after he was scared sh*tless.



I'm assuming that you're friends with the guy, otherwise you wouldn't have done this? I'm also assuming you're at work since you specified coworker? Correct me if either of those are wrong.

If not...are you certain that if a friend came up to you at work and started pushing and yelling at you, that you wouldn't freeze? That's a very specific scenario and different than a fight. If someone does that at a bar, I'm pretty sure I know how I'll respond because I've been in fights before. If someone I know and don't expect violence from were to all of a sudden assault me (not using the legal sense, but overwhelm me from the physical/verbal aspect), that's a lot tougher to call. I may do the same thing in the bar...or my brain may try to process what is going on (different than lack of courage, as again, I've been in enough fights to know I have that), and 'short circuit' in a sense. 

What my brain may go through: 

"Am I being attacked? Should I fight back? Wait that's Steve...do I attack him and hurt him, or refrain him. Wait...I'm at work. Is it a good idea for me to fight at all here? Can I just run away, or would that cause issues? Hang on a second, why is Steve attacking me? And why would he do that at work? He's yelling...is he actually attacking me or pushing me out of the way of something? Should I go back farther? Should I just stay still where he pushed me? Did I do something to him...do we need to talk this out before it gets really violent? Wait a second...is it worth that risk...should I just attack him now? But it's Steve. I like Steve. I don't want to hurt Steve. But I don't want Steve to hurt me. Well he only pushed me once...and he's not yelling anymore. I think I'm good, let's just ask him what happened." 

And if there's a weapon involved, add: "Do I take out my weapon? If I do will I/will I have to use it? I'm at work, am I even allowed to have a weapon? What if my supervisor sees it? What if he does the same, and now it's a knife fight in the office?"

That entire thought process could happen from someone trained fight, with every confidence in the world that he could beat Steve. Personally, that thought process would be very different from, at a bar. "That guy just swung at me!" Followed by either "I'm going to protect myself.", "Is X okay?" or "Let me back up and see what's going on.". That's a split second process, that's decided by the other circumstances involved.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

kempodisciple said:


> I'm assuming that you're friends with the guy, otherwise you wouldn't have done this? I'm also assuming you're at work since you specified coworker? Correct me if either of those are wrong.
> 
> If not...are you certain that if a friend came up to you at work and started pushing and yelling at you, that you wouldn't freeze? That's a very specific scenario and different than a fight. If someone does that at a bar, I'm pretty sure I know how I'll respond because I've been in fights before. If someone I know and don't expect violence from were to all of a sudden assault me (not using the legal sense, but overwhelm me from the physical/verbal aspect), that's a lot tougher to call. I may do the same thing in the bar...or my brain may try to process what is going on (different than lack of courage, as again, I've been in enough fights to know I have that), and 'short circuit' in a sense.
> 
> What my brain may go through:
> 
> "Am I being attacked? Should I fight back? Wait that's Steve...do I attack him and hurt him, or refrain him. Wait...I'm at work. Is it a good idea for me to fight at all here? Can I just run away, or would that cause issues? Hang on a second, why is Steve attacking me? And why would he do that at work? He's yelling...is he actually attacking me or pushing me out of the way of something? Should I go back farther? Should I just stay still where he pushed me? Did I do something to him...do we need to talk this out before it gets really violent? Wait a second...is it worth that risk...should I just attack him now? But it's Steve. I like Steve. I don't want to hurt Steve. But I don't want Steve to hurt me. Well he only pushed me once...and he's not yelling anymore. I think I'm good, let's just ask him what happened."
> 
> And if there's a weapon involved, add: "Do I take out my weapon? If I do will I/will I have to use it? I'm at work, am I even allowed to have a weapon? What if my supervisor sees it? What if he does the same, and now it's a knife fight in the office?"
> 
> That entire thought process could happen from someone trained fight, with every confidence in the world that he could beat Steve. Personally, that thought process would be very different from, at a bar. "That guy just swung at me!" Followed by either "I'm going to protect myself.", "Is X okay?" or "Let me back up and see what's going on.". That's a split second process, that's decided by the other circumstances involved.


As a side note, it was a lot of fun imagining what I might think in that situation. I just let my mind ramble, and out it came


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## zzj

I have more than 4 years of tai chi training, but the only person I can confidently win is my six yr old son


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## Zeny

Taiji is obviously a martial art, is there ever any doubt about that?


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## ChenAn

The bottom line is: taiji comes in package of two wellness/longevity/health and martial arts. 
Taiji is not for everyone. 
Taiji is not efficient way to learn combative usage quickly and requires time
Spending years practicing taiji doesn’t guarantee success. 
A good qualified teacher is a key. 
Until body method is learnt and understand applications/usage will only work with brute physical strength. 
Compensating for lack of skills by vigorous none taiji related conditioning defeating the purpose of practicing taiji on the first place. 

Do we agree ?


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## Xue Sheng

ChenAn said:


> The bottom line is: taiji comes in package of two wellness/longevity/health and martial arts.
> Taiji is not for everyone.
> Taiji is not efficient way to learn combative usage quickly and requires time
> Spending years practicing taiji doesn’t guarantee success.
> A good qualified teacher is a key.
> Until body method is learnt and understand applications/usage will only work with brute physical strength.
> Compensating for lack of skills by vigorous none taiji related conditioning defeating the purpose of practicing taiji on the first place.
> 
> Do we agree ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Speaking as a Yang Style guy who has been at it for over 25 years...yes...we agree


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## Zeny

The infamous limp noodle arms say:

Taiji is a martial art which follows ying and yang. Out of this, there are a thousand different forms, which are in turn practised by a million people, of different backgrounds, age, race, and build. Everyone has their own understanding of taiji. But as long as we follow the concept of ying and yang, of softness to defeat hardness, of change to defeat stagnancy, we are practising taiji.

Taiji comes in only one package, which is ying and yang. If we only practise ten minutes a day, we will gain wellness and health, but will only scratch the surface of taiji.

Taiji is obviously not for everyone. One man’s honey is another man’s poison.

Taiji, if practised correctly under 24/7 guidance of a grandmaster, is the most efficient way to learn fighting, as in one year spent practising taiji is better than a year spent in any other art. But not everyone has 24/7 access to a grandmaster.

Hard work doesn’t guarantee success in anything.

A good qualified teacher is the key to learning anything.

Brute physical strength is the baseline for all healthy adults. From there, taiji and the different arts improve this baseline. Taiji especially, molds the body into steel wrapped in cotton able to express true internal strength, conveniently named as ‘jin’.

To condition a taiji body, the form is the best method. All other methods, vigorous or not, may or may not help to a lesser or greater extent. So don’t waste time, just practise the form.

Thus the limp noodle arms hath spoketh.


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## Kung Fu Wang

ChenAn said:


> The bottom line is: taiji comes in package of two wellness/longevity/health and martial arts. ... Do we agree ?


I don't agree that Taiji is even good for longevity/health. The reason are:

1. No weight training - You may lose bone density in old age.
2. No heart stress test - The slow Taiji movement does not make your heart to work enough.
3. Not enough single leg balance training - You may lose balance and fall in old age.


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## ChenAn

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't agree that Taiji is even good for longevity/health. The reason are:
> 
> 1. No weight training - You may lose bone density in old age.
> 2. No heart stress test - The slow Taiji movement does not make your heart to work enough.
> 3. Not enough single leg balance training - You may lose balance and fall in old age.



It doesn’t seem like you know much about traditional taiji


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## Kung Fu Wang

ChenAn said:


> It doesn’t seem like you know much about traditional taiji.


If you don't agree with my opinion just give your reason. There is no need for personal attack.

Here is my teacher's Taiji.


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## Xue Sheng

OK, this will likely not end well.

But based on this



Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you don't agree with my opinion just give your reason. There is no need for personal attack.
> 
> Here is my teacher's Taiji.



I can see why you say this



Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't agree that Taiji is even good for longevity/health. The reason are:
> 
> 1. No weight training - You may lose bone density in old age.
> 2. No heart stress test - The slow Taiji movement does not make your heart to work enough.
> 3. Not enough single leg balance training - You may lose balance and fall in old age.



And I agree with ChenAn  post...and I will critique the video no further



ChenAn said:


> It doesn’t seem like you know much about traditional taiji
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I leg postures in traditiaonal Yang
右蹬脚 Right Heel Kick
左蹬脚 Left Heel Kick
转身右蹬脚 Turn Body and Right Heel Kick
左金鸡独立 Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg, Left
右金鸡独立 Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg, Right
十字腿 Cross Kick

My flavor of Yang












The Chen I use to do











And to clarify, none of these people are me.

The side by side Yang is Tung Ying Chieh and his Son Tung Hu Ling
Tung Ying Chieh is my Shigong and was my teacher's teacher

The Chen is Chen Zhenglei
I learned Laojia Yilu from Chen Zhenglei and some of his students
I learned the 18 form from one of hie students

I also have done a Wu style competition form and of course like many taiji folks the Beijing 24 form. but these I do not consider traditional and I no longer do the Wu form

Going back to the Yang that I do from Tung Ying Chieh
The style also includes
2 Fast forms
1 Jian Form
2 Dao forms
1 staff form
and various types of push hands training including stick and sticky
As well as various qigong forms


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## ChenAn

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you don't agree with my opinion just give your reason. There is no need for personal attack.
> 
> Here is my teacher's Taiji.



Sorry for my ignorance but I don’t know much about person on this video. I’m practicing Chenshi Dajja taiji and not familiar with other branches, but for what it worth here is bid of 92 years old practitioner practicing my frame





Here is article about him (he is around 100 now)
http://kuaibao.qq.com/s/20180318G0URDJ00?refer=spider


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## Kung Fu Wang

ChenAn said:


> Sorry for my ignorance but I don’t know much about person on this video.


We may have some generation gap here. 

Here is my student's Taiji. This video was filmed 35 years ago.


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## ChenAn

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here is my student's Taiji. This video was filmed 35 years ago.



And again it doest’s ring a bell. Sorry. It’s not my system  and whatever pitfalls and advantages comes with it I can’t really tell.

In my line we practice first form xinjia yi lu (83 postures) in average 30-40 minutes . One would fall a sleep of boredom watching it on video lol Very different from other branches that may practice same thing other ways.

In any case I have counter example of Jet Li whose gong fu admired by millions on movie screens suffers from serious illness . And frankly looks way older than his age 


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## Kung Fu Wang

Xue Sheng said:


> 右蹬脚 Right Heel Kick
> 左蹬脚 Left Heel Kick
> 转身右蹬脚 Turn Body and Right Heel Kick
> 左金鸡独立 Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg, Left
> 右金鸡独立 Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg, Right
> 十字腿 Cross Kick


IMO, if you keep your spine vertical all the time, you are not training your single leg balance to the maximum.

Here is a good single leg balance training - *舍身探海* *(She Shen Tan Hai) Sacristy body and dive into ocean. If you can still do this posture when you are 80 years old, you don't have to worry about falling down from stairs.*


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## Kung Fu Wang

People have said that Taiji is good for weak, sick, old. What if you are not weak, sick, old? When you are young, if you do this posture daily, when you get old, you will never get a hump back.

Taiji training just doesn't bend your body back like this.

*羅漢观天* *(Luo Han Guan Tian) - Lou Han looks at sky *


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## ChenAn

Kung Fu Wang said:


> People have said that Taiji is good for weak, sick, old. What if you are not weak, sick, old? When you are young, if you do this posture daily, when you get old, you will never get a hump back.
> 
> Taiji training just doesn't bend your body back like this.
> 
> *羅漢观天* *(Luo Han Guan Tian) - Lou Han looks at sky *




Fallacy of hasty  generalization 


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## mograph

Submitted for your approval:

Courage is the engine. 

Intelligence is the rudder.
Wisdom is the governor.


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## Xue Sheng

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, if you keep your spine vertical all the time, you are not training your single leg balance to the maximum.
> 
> Here is a good single leg balance training - *舍身探海* *(She Shen Tan Hai) Sacristy body and dive into ocean. If you can still do this posture when you are 80 years old, you don't have to worry about falling down from stairs.*



Speaking as a Taijiquan guy who also does Yoga, whose favorite yoga posture is half-moon. We don't agree, but that is nothing new.,

But if that is your standard than from a yoga perspective that is not enough either...why stop at a bad warrior 3 position

Proper warrior 3 by the way






you should then also do a half-moon pose





and of course there was a balance exercise I got the idea for form Bruce Lee's first book. Bring your leg up in front of you stop in the position for an heel kick and t hen horizontally rotate it to the rear and then swing through back to a heel kick...all done slowly....and I could say if you are not doing that, as well as warrior 3 and half-moon.....then you are not working enough on balance

However the reality of the situation as far as it applies only to balance.... a tree pose works just fine (You may want to try it) as do many taijiquan poses, when done properly and the proper speed. They also train how to maintain that balance while in motion.

I recommend starting with this one


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## Kung Fu Wang

Xue Sheng said:


>



That's a good one - *烏龍戏水* *(Wu Long Xi Shui) Black dragon plays with water




*


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## ChenAn

Chen sword aka jian has exactly the same posture as in yoga 


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## JowGaWolf

1. No weight training - You may lose bone density in old age.
2. No heart stress test - The slow Taiji movement does not make your heart to work enough.
3. Not enough single leg balance training - You may lose balance and fall in old age.[/QUOTE]

1. The slow movement makes  your body weight more than enough for weight training.  In addition forms is not the only conditioning that is done for Tai Chi.  There are medical studies that actually show that it increases bone density
2. No heart stress test - You don't have move fast to stress the heart. There is both slow practice and fast practice for Tai Chi (the martial version, not the "health only" version)
3. Not enough single leg balance training.  When I practice that's all that it ever seems like I'm doing because it takes me so long to transition weight from one foot to the other.  My legs actually gained muscle mass because of Tai Chi.


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## Kung Fu Wang

JowGaWolf said:


> 2. No heart stress test - You don't have move fast to stress the heart. There is both slow practice and fast practice for Tai Chi (the martial version, not the "health only" version.


We are talking about whether "Taiji for health" is good enough for health. If you train "Taiji for combat" and spar 15 rounds daily, you won't have any health issue.

I just had my heart stress test 3 months ago. In that test, I had to run 30 degree uphill in quite fast speed in order to push my heart rate to the required level. I do believe that the common slow Taiji sole form training won't be able to achieve that.


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## ChenAn

Kung Fu Wang said:


> We are talking about whether "Taiji for health" is good enough for health. If you train "Taiji for combat" and spar 15 rounds daily, you won't have any health issue.
> 
> I just had my heart stress test 3 months ago. In that test, I had to run 30 degree uphill in quite fast speed in order to push my heart rate to the required level. I do believe that the common slow Taiji sole form training won't be able to achieve that.



And you didn’t really see video of 93 years old taiji practitioner above ? Lol  


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## ChenAn

Off topic: I’m in aviation business so I know little bit about heart test. Usually stress test is not required unless doctor suspect that you have heart problems or you had heart problems before . EKG is sufficient during routing test. 

When patient submitted to stress test no one asks to run because if patient do have a problem doctor don’t want to cause cardiac arrest. Most patient usually asked to walk fast uphill .

My question -?did you elect to have stress test yourself or you suspected problems?



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## Xue Sheng

Kung Fu Wang said:


> We are talking about whether "Taiji for health" is good enough for health. If you train "Taiji for combat" and spar 15 rounds daily, you won't have any health issue.
> 
> I just had my heart stress test 3 months ago. In that test, I had to run 30 degree uphill in quite fast speed in order to push my heart rate to the required level. I do believe that the common slow Taiji sole form training won't be able to achieve that.



My taijiquan sifu is pushing 80 and he always surprises his physicians as to how healthy he and his heart is


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## JowGaWolf

Kung Fu Wang said:


> We are talking about whether "Taiji for health" is good enough for health.


Oh ok.  "Taji for health" as in people who only do half of the training.  People who only do the "health part"   I'm really big on training martial arts as a fighting system.  Even if people don't want to use it for fighting, they would a lot of health benefits from the training.  I'm not a fan of splitting Tai Chi into 2 separate components (one for health and one for fighting).  Train it for fighting and the health portion will be a by product.

I understand that there will be limits on to how much of the training one can do. A punch practiced as a punch uses different muscles then a movement that look like a punch but isn't a punch.  Standing on one leg is easy, but standing on one leg as done in Yoga or Martial Arts takes a lot more muscle engagement to do.

Are are standing on one leg, but all don't engage the same muscles and as a result only will give a person maximum results.    Westerners have a tendency to shortcut stuff.


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## ChenAn

There was health related documentary where one doctor said “ life is like a car without brakes. If you accelerate to fast you come to finish sooner”

I think it can be said about taiji. Balance of yin and yang. Either end of extreme is out of balance


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## JowGaWolf

ChenAn said:


> Balance of yin and yang. Either end of extreme is out of balance


I try to live my life like this.  Because there are so many examples of it all through out life.  I will definitely be using "Either end of extreme is out of balance." Very well put.


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## Kung Fu Wang

ChenAn said:


> My question -?did you elect to have stress test yourself or you suspected problems?


One of my SC brothers passed away in his sleep last Christmas. My wife forced me to check my heart. After that, I have checked my lung, kidney, and colon.

Taiji was my 1st CMA system that I have trained when I was 7. Today, I just don't feel like to train Taiji any more. About 1 hour ago, I just finished running 4 miles on the beach. Did XingYi Pi Chuan 1000 time in 40 minutes. I then did XingYi Beng Chuan 200 times. That was my 2 hours work out for today.


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## ChenAn

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One of my SC brothers passed away in his sleep last Christmas. My wife forced me to check my heart. After that, I have checked my lung, kidney, and colon.



I got my checked as well. But in my line of business if you got your heart checked next medical renewal could have more consequences.

My friend, a retired airline pilot, who used to worked for TWS got a heart attack several days after checking his heart. Life is full of surprises - just saying 


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## Zeny

There are so many senior taiji masters/students in this thread. Why don’t we share videos of our own forms instead of just linking other people’s?


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## Kung Fu Wang

JowGaWolf said:


> Standing on one leg is easy, but standing on one leg as done in Yoga or Martial Arts takes a lot more muscle engagement to do.


I have trained single leg balance all my life. It's one ability that I try to maintain through my old age


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## Kung Fu Wang

Zeny said:


> There are so many senior taiji masters/students in this thread. Why don’t we share videos of our own forms instead of just linking other people’s?


You are right. Here is my Taiji form. Just throw a brick to invite some jade.


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## Zeny

Kudos to you for taking the initiative. Which one are you in the video? Is your taiji form usually done at that speed?


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## Kung Fu Wang

Zeny said:


> Kudos to you for taking the initiative. Which one are you in the video? Is your taiji form usually done at that speed?


I'm the only Chinese there.

For Chang style Taiji, that's the normal speed. Each move should be either 1 inhale, or 1 exhale. After my 4 miles running, I'll do my Taiji form much faster than that.


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## Zeny

Ok if chenAn, mograph and xue sheng would share short clips of their forms (min 30 seconds), I will share mine as well and you will get to see my infamous limp noodle arms in action.


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## ChenAn

Zeny said:


> Ok if chenAn, mograph and xue sheng would share short clips of their forms (min 30 seconds), I will share mine as well and you will get to see my infamous limp noodle arms in action.



Oh man I need to make new one! lol


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## Zeny

The author of this video thinks taichi is not effective as a martial art. See 5:25.


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## mograph

Given that so few groups _practice_ taijiquan as a martial art, rarely use it in _fighting_ competitions, and if they do, it's not _recognizable_ as taijiquan ... videos like this are understandable.


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## Xue Sheng

Zeny said:


> Ok if chenAn, mograph and xue sheng would share short clips of their forms (min 30 seconds), I will share mine as well and you will get to see my infamous limp noodle arms in action.



This will not make me friends and likely make me a target but...

Sorry, no, I do not video myself and put it on YouTube, nor does my Shifu. I lost a good Sanda Shifu by simply talking about it on MT, I will not lose my Taiji shifu by posting videos. There are videos of his teacher out there, of his teacher oldest son (and friend of my shifu) and of his teachers Grandsons, that is as close as I can get you to it. The videos of my teacher's teacher (my shigong)  teacher and his teachers oldest son were put there by my Shigong's grandchildren and possibly great grand children.


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## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> Given that so few groups _practice_ taijiquan as a martial art, rarely use it in _fighting_ competitions, and if they do, it's not _recognizable_ as taijiquan ... videos like this are understandable.



Taiji trained and done properly as a martial art is rare these days. There is a lot of "Combat Tai Chi" that is a taiji form done with the intent of an different (usually hard) style


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## ChenAn

I will make a short video soon. It’s not a big deal. I’m not a master and have nothing to loose lol

As far as people who don’t want to make video. I understand personal reasons, anxiety and etc, but if it’s related to secrecy it no longer make sense . Taiji is dead anyway. We have a slight chance to pass to the new generations, but there are so many washed out, misinterpreted versions out there that even if we wanted preserve it we may never will.

Even when we have dedicated student followers there is no guarantee they will able to learnt to required extent . 

Having studying with famous teacher absolutely doesn’t guarantee a success - it’s just a chance. What makes your gong fu is you, not your teacher. 




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## ChenAn

And quick and dirty vid. This just a small part of xinjia erlu in casual training format. 

If you noticed samurai facial expression  during 搬拦肘 (elbow block) it’s my right shoulder that bothers me a bit after injury. Will eradicate it soon 







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## Kung Fu Wang

ChenAn said:


> but if it’s related to secrecy it no longer make sense.


My teacher always said, "I will ask 3 questions. If anybody can answer those 3 questions, I'll pay that person $10,000."

Those 3 questions are (those are the exactly words that he used):

1. What's trapping hand, cover hand, pulling hand?
2. What's body tie?
3. What's 3 sections control?

When China published a Chinese wrestling book, answers for all these 3 questions can be found in that book.

IMO, if my teacher could write a book to include those information, people will give him credit for it. Now he had passed away and he had lose that chance forever.

My senior SC brother C. K. Lin passed away last Christmas. But his MA will be remembered because he was willing to share. As far as I know, he was the 1st person who created a video that show both form and application at the same time.


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## lansao

Zeny said:


> The author of this video thinks taichi is not effective as a martial art. See 5:25.



Surprised he didn’t include wing chun! Haha


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## Zeny

He did haha, at part 1 of the series, see 7:40.


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## ChenAn

So Zeny your turn 


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## Zeny

ChenAn said:


> And quick and dirty vid. This just a small part of xinjia erlu in casual training format.
> 
> If you noticed samurai facial expression  during 搬拦肘 (elbow block) it’s my right shoulder that bothers me a bit after injury. Will eradicate it soon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Wow nice. Any chance to see your yilu?


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## Zeny

ChenAn said:


> So Zeny your turn
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I already posted mine, see:

Our form videos


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## JowGaWolf

Zeny said:


> The author of this video thinks taichi is not effective as a martial art. See 5:25.


lol.. crazy video.


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## ChenAn

Zeny said:


> Wow nice. Any chance to see your yilu?



Yes, I need few days. My backyard is pretty busy place lol


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## ChenAn

Zeny said:


> I already posted mine, see:
> 
> Our form videos



Got it thanks. That is a good speed ! In my line sometimes we do erlu as yilu and yilu as erlu lol


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## Zeny

ChenAn said:


> Got it thanks. That is a good speed ! In my line sometimes we do erlu as yilu and yilu as erlu lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Do you wish to do a repost of your video at that new thread? So that we can have a collection.


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## JowGaWolf

ChenAn said:


> As far as people who don’t want to make video. I understand personal reasons, anxiety and etc, but if it’s related to secrecy it no longer make sense .


When I think of this, I think of 2 realities. 
1.  Look how long it took for me to learn it with the resources I have.  So what makes me think someone is going to learn just by watching a video of me doing a form
2.  Look at the effort it took me to learn.  How many people are willing to make that effort.  There were people who took the same classes I did at the same time I did and they didn't have any effort.

Three's a big difference between seeing and taking the time and commitment to actually do it.  How often do we see musicians play instruments and singers perform.  Now how many of us would even give it that much dedication?    This is how I look at Martial Arts.  

Trying to keep it in a box as a secret is not good for it's survival.  Secrecy causes fraud, simply because no one knows what it is supposed to look like except for a handful of people.   In other cases videos may embarrass higher ups.  This is where ego starts to come into play. This is where the mentality of "No one can be better than the Master" takes over.  There are some good reasons not to show videos, but most really aren't good reasons.

History has shown that restricted information is eventually lost information.


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## JowGaWolf

ChenAn said:


> And quick and dirty vid. This just a small part of xinjia erlu in casual training format.
> 
> If you noticed samurai facial expression  during 搬拦肘 (elbow block) it’s my right shoulder that bothers me a bit after injury. Will eradicate it soon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for sharing


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## lansao

Zeny said:


> He did haha, at part 1 of the series, see 7:40.



Embarrassing.


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## JowGaWolf

lansao said:


> Embarrassing.


lol  not for me.


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## lansao

JowGaWolf said:


> lol  not for me.



Whatever helps you sleep at night.


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## ChenAn

JowGaWolf said:


> When I think of this, I think of 2 realities.
> 1.  Look how long it took for me to learn it with the resources I have.  So what makes me think someone is going to learn just by watching a video of me doing a form
> 2.  Look at the effort it took me to learn.  How many people are willing to make that effort.  There were people who took the same classes I did at the same time I did and they didn't have any effort.
> 
> Three's a big difference between seeing and taking the time and commitment to actually do it.  How often do we see musicians play instruments and singers perform.  Now how many of us would even give it that much dedication?    This is how I look at Martial Arts.
> 
> Trying to keep it in a box as a secret is not good for it's survival.  Secrecy causes fraud, simply because no one knows what it is supposed to look like except for a handful of people.   In other cases videos may embarrass higher ups.  This is where ego starts to come into play. This is where the mentality of "No one can be better than the Master" takes over.  There are some good reasons not to show videos, but most really aren't good reasons.
> 
> History has shown that restricted information is eventually lost information.



I look at this from different angle. Video could serve  a guiding purpose for those who is in search. Curious mind will lead to the right direction.




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## Zeny

JowGaWolf said:


> When I think of this, I think of 2 realities.
> 1.  Look how long it took for me to learn it with the resources I have.  So what makes me think someone is going to learn just by watching a video of me doing a form
> 2.  Look at the effort it took me to learn.  How many people are willing to make that effort.  There were people who took the same classes I did at the same time I did and they didn't have any effort.
> 
> Three's a big difference between seeing and taking the time and commitment to actually do it.  How often do we see musicians play instruments and singers perform.  Now how many of us would even give it that much dedication?    This is how I look at Martial Arts.
> 
> Trying to keep it in a box as a secret is not good for it's survival.  Secrecy causes fraud, simply because no one knows what it is supposed to look like except for a handful of people.   In other cases videos may embarrass higher ups.  This is where ego starts to come into play. This is where the mentality of "No one can be better than the Master" takes over.  There are some good reasons not to show videos, but most really aren't good reasons.
> 
> History has shown that restricted information is eventually lost information.



Besides, it’s fun to watch each other’s videos!


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## JowGaWolf

ChenAn said:


> I look at this from different angle. Video could serve  a guiding purpose for those who is in search. Curious mind will lead to the right direction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Valid too


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## JowGaWolf

Zeny said:


> Besides, it’s fun to watch each other’s videos!


I like seeing the learning process and the reality that everyone isn't perfect.  I come from a school where everything had to be perfectly done like a dance routine.  It drove me nuts.  People are only human.  Ironically, when I got the boot, my Sigung posted a video of his bloopers and a message.  "Don't take your kung fu too seriously " 

It was a year late for my school but I like the new videos from the main school.  Now they look human.


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## Kung Fu Wang

JowGaWolf said:


> 1.  Look how long it took for me to learn it with the resources I have.  So what makes me think someone is going to learn just by watching a video of me doing a form.


I stole a form by hidden behind a tree and watched my long fist teacher who taught that form to more advanced students. A year later, my long fist teacher asked me to perform that form in my high school event. I then knew that he didn't mind that I had stolen that form from him.

IMO, to steal a form is easy. To understand the application is not.


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## ChenAn

In my opinion a “form” has to have a purpose, a content  and a function. 

How people interprets it depends their knowledge  in the area. 

In my line each movement supported by separate drills. Drills give rough idea of the function. After practicing both drills and movement they give birth to a jin. This is when things start clear up and make sense. Lol

In turn jins open gates for usage “on demand” and change/adaptation to situation. One jin turns to another and so on. That is where taiji mma  taking place. Lol

The problem of modern taiji is lack of transmission . That is why majority of proficient taiji players came with heavy combative background before hand. Those pure taiji practitioners usually falls in the rough patch of discovery which usually comes under the stress. The dilemma is - if one wants to learn self defense from real punches and kicks he/she must learn how to do those first. Then he/she can learn how to defend it. Otherwise, the training is is just an impression what seems to be punches and kicks.

Of course it’s easy for me to say I have spent over decade prior taiji in full contact competitions/sparrings. Not that I was good in it, but at least I got an exposure mixing up with practitioners outside of my style. And yes I was owned many times  An eye opening experience of shining difference between imagination and reality. So in a sense, I’m fortunate to be not delusional about my skillset and limitations, and have healthy respect for others. That’s why you don’t see me doing stupid challenges and swim comfortably in my taiji swamp lol 



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