# 2 Hour Intro to Wing Chun Class



## wingchun100 (Jan 2, 2017)

I will be teaching a 2-hour Intro to Wing Chun course at a local college. I'm assuming that the attendees may be newbies not just to Wing Chun, but to martial arts in general. I'm trying to come up with an outline for the class, but I need some suggestions because I am not sure if what I have will last 2 hours.

*Warm-up and stretching (15-20 minutes tops)
*Describe what I feel are the 3 main features of the system
*Run them through a handful of basic techniques. One would be the punch, of course. Then I was thinking of doing 3 blocks: Pak Sao, Gan Sao, and Biu Sao.
*Practice these in the air, then with a partner.
*Practice the blocks in the air again while adding an attack. Then do it with a partner.
*After that, I was thinking of doing 3-5 self-defense scenarios. ("How would you use Wing Chun if someone did ______?")

Does anyone else have any ideas? I was thinking forms would NOT be important, since it is just a 2-hour, one-shot class.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 2, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I will be teaching a 2-hour Intro to Wing Chun course at a local college. I'm assuming that the attendees may be newbies not just to Wing Chun, but to martial arts in general. I'm trying to come up with an outline for the class, but I need some suggestions because I am not sure if what I have will last 2 hours.
> 
> *Warm-up and stretching (15-20 minutes tops)
> *Describe what I feel are the 3 main features of the system
> ...


That's an ambitious amount to fit into the 100 minutes you have left after stretching. Remember, there will be questions (maybe a few, maybe a lot - depends upon the group). Remember, also, that to teach blocks and have them work with a partner, you'll have to teach at least some rudimentary striking principles at that point (some will be just awful if you don't). Imagine you had a brand new student who came to class, who was going to work with another brand new student. How much could you cover with that student in the first class?

Have you decided what the desired outcome of the class is? Do you want them to understand WC, or do you want them to have a taste of self-defense? You seem to be trying to reach both, and that (IMO) is too much for 2 hours. If the class is supposed to be an intro to WC, then I'd omit the SD scenarios at the end. Instead, with each technique you teach them, you can demonstrate the self-defense usage for them. They simply aren't going to have any skill in that amount of time.

Here's my primary concern: if you put them through those few techniques, then have them try to defend even a very slow attack, most of them are likely to still be very bad at it - improper structure making the blocks feel weak, etc. So, at the end of 2 hours, they don't feel the effectiveness and don't get a good feeling for WC. On the other hand, if they learn two good blocks and two good strikes, then they can actually get to feel what a good block/strike feels like. Let them get a little bit of a feel for the repetition. Still include the talk about the features of the system. If you want to save some time, you could actually reduce the warm-up. You are unlikely to get them moving much in that amount of time (footwork adds to the learning times), so they have less chance to hurt themselves. Show them a form that has all of the techniques (hopefully there is one) you'll be teaching. Show it with some speed and fluidity to make it more interesting. Then, as you teach each technique, you can point out where it is in the form. 

Now, all that said, whatever you plan for, have an extension plan in your back pocket, too. As sure as I am of what I've said, sometimes you get the freak group of people who learn really fast. So, in this case, maybe be ready to teach a short sequence of the techniques they learned. Or just keep those SD scenarios handy, just in case.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 2, 2017)

I want to give them an overview of WC so that I can maybe get some people to hang on as future students. As for the SD scenarios, that is because people often wonder how WC would be used against this or that attack. So I wanted them to see how it would work by having them finish the question, "What if..."

The first form does indeed have all the techniques in it that I wanted to teach (the 3 blocks and the punch). 

Last but not least, I was thinking for the SD scenarios that I might just have them watch me defend against whatever they suggest. Then again, I don't want to do too much of that (putting them in positions where they just watch) because this class is going to cost them some money. They don't want to pay and then just stand there watching me. They want to get a feel for it themselves.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 2, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I want to give them an overview of WC so that I can maybe get some people to hang on as future students. As for the SD scenarios, that is because people often wonder how WC would be used against this or that attack. So I wanted them to see how it would work by having them finish the question, "What if..."
> 
> The first form does indeed have all the techniques in it that I wanted to teach (the 3 blocks and the punch).
> 
> Last but not least, I was thinking for the SD scenarios that I might just have them watch me defend against whatever they suggest. Then again, I don't want to do too much of that (putting them in positions where they just watch) because this class is going to cost them some money. They don't want to pay and then just stand there watching me. They want to get a feel for it themselves.


I wouldn't take the SD situation suggestions from them, for reasons I mentioned before. Pick a few you consider valuable, fairly common, and good illustrations of how WC is used in SD. Don't be afraid of them standing and watching you - that's literally the only way they're going to find out in 2 hours how WC actually works. 

Here's an idea - start with a brief demo of using WC in a defensive situation. Plan it so you can use in that one situation all the strikes and at least one of the blocks you're going to work with. Yeah, it'll be overkill (remember to restomp the groin), but it lets them see at reasonable speed what the stuff looks like. Then you can explain the points of the art and how forms fit into the training. You can show them the form (again, at speed), then highlight the first technique they're going to learn. One way to pair up the techniques would be to teach a strike first, then teach a block they can use against it. Now they have a workable pair of techniques for a short drill. Repeat.

Of course, if someone asks a specific scenario - and it's a reasonable one - then you can go with it. Just remember your demonstration partner isn't trained in WC, so anything outside the stuff you've practiced might get an unexpected reaction from him.


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## Danny T (Jan 2, 2017)

Stance, Structure, Centerline & Gate theories, Punching.
Pak Sao, Bil Sao, Pak/Sot, and countering.


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## Juany118 (Jan 2, 2017)

Is this differ by than the 6 week course you already asked about.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 2, 2017)

You can teach them how to deal with:

- straight punch (jab, cross, ...),
- circular punch (hook, uppercut, ...),
- straight kick (front kick, side kick, ...),
- circular kick (roundhouse kick, spin kick, ...),
- foot sweep,
- leg shooting,
- ...

Teach your new students how to solve those problems before get into more detail.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 2, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I will be teaching a 2-hour Intro to Wing Chun course at a local college. I'm assuming that the attendees may be newbies not just to Wing Chun, but to martial arts in general. I'm trying to come up with an outline for the class, but I need some suggestions because I am not sure if what I have will last 2 hours.
> 
> *Warm-up and stretching (15-20 minutes tops)
> *Describe what I feel are the 3 main features of the system
> ...


Keep in mind that you are doing an Introduction to Wing Chun so your 2 hours is better spent on educating the people about the system.  Show a couple of basics and let them play around with the basics.  Talk about the fighting theory of the system, the advantages, the disadvantages, and benefits.  Explain the difference between Chinese Martial Arts, Japanese Martial Arts, and Korean Martial Arts people get those things mixed up big time.

Explain the concepts of the basics (stance, basic punch, and basic movement) and what is learned as an advanced student so they can have a comparison. Talk about the type of training that is done at your school.  Give them a chance to experience doing some of the basics.  Don't forget to mention that intermediate students learn how to generate power with their punches so that they don't think that their weak punch is all that's to Wing Chun

Give a little general historical background about Wing Chun talk about the famous people who practice Wing Chun which helps people to create some kind of connection about what you do.  Ip Man, Donnie Yen, Bruce Lee.. go for the big names because they many won't know anyone beyond the big names.

The other thing you can do is teach them a basic escape move and let them work on that. with each other.   Make sure they walk away from your Intro course with something that they can actually use.  If they can walk away with something they can use, then they will most likely come back to you to learn more.

If I had 2 hours to do a Jow Ga Course I would use those 2 hours to educate the participants on the reality and myths of kung fu so that they can at least recognize legitimate kung fu for fighting vs kung fu for entertainment.  
I would explain the training, let them experience part of the training.  Maybe do a horse stance challenge to see how long they can maintain their stance.  Anything that would help make Kung Fu less mystical and more practical and realistic.  Then I'll teach a really simple technique, explain how to do it correctly and explain when it fails.  Let them learn that so that they can go to their friends and to the grabbing scenario with their friends. 

I would also ask them to leave their emails if they want to receive my newsletters.  Even if I didn't have one, I would still send out an invite to watch sparring at the school or to be part of a special event or beginners class.   People who have contacted me in the past about Jow Ga but didn't join gets an email every time a new student joins.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 3, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Keep in mind that you are doing an Introduction to Wing Chun so your 2 hours is better spent on educating the people about the system.  Show a couple of basics and let them play around with the basics.  Talk about the fighting theory of the system, the advantages, the disadvantages, and benefits.  Explain the difference between Chinese Martial Arts, Japanese Martial Arts, and Korean Martial Arts people get those things mixed up big time.
> 
> Explain the concepts of the basics (stance, basic punch, and basic movement) and what is learned as an advanced student so they can have a comparison. Talk about the type of training that is done at your school.  Give them a chance to experience doing some of the basics.  Don't forget to mention that intermediate students learn how to generate power with their punches so that they don't think that their weak punch is all that's to Wing Chun
> 
> ...


Some great points in here. Do give them some info about what they should expect from training in WC, and specifically in your school.  I like the "horse stance challenge" - especially if this is something you guys train at your school. You could do that during the intro - talking in horse stance while they try to match you. It becomes part of the warm-up, then.

Be willing to mention some of the limitations of WC, and why those are an acceptable compromise for you (and, in your view, for the art).

Definitely invite them to the school. Have flyers, or at least business cards for the school.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Have flyers, or at least business cards for the school.


definitely make sure they walk away with one or both of these things. Even if they don't join, they will have enough information to refer someone and an experience to share on what you were like as an instructor.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 3, 2017)

One thing I am leaving out: I have no school yet. I was offered the chance to teach once a week at a gym not far from me, but I don't have the amount of rent he needs up front. I was trying to build up a possible student body BEFORE I tell him I want the space. (What if I tell him yes, and then a month later have to stop because no one comes to class and I can't afford it anymore?) This way I could get people interested ahead of time and, if they want to join, I could give them a discount on that first month for having attended the one-shot college course.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 3, 2017)

As for explaining differences between other styles...I think that would be better suited for a longer class. If someone comes in and they have never done a martial art AT ALL, then they won't even know what differences I mean. I think this 2-hour class needs to focus simply on Wing Chun. Like GP said, in the name of transparency I could go over Wing Chun's flaws and explain why the systems still works (in my opinion).


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 3, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> One thing I am leaving out: I have no school yet. I was offered the chance to teach once a week at a gym not far from me, but I don't have the amount of rent he needs up front. I was trying to build up a possible student body BEFORE I tell him I want the space. (What if I tell him yes, and then a month later have to stop because no one comes to class and I can't afford it anymore?) This way I could get people interested ahead of time and, if they want to join, I could give them a discount on that first month for having attended the one-shot college course.


Have you looked into rec centers and the like? There may be a place you could hold classes for the interim (and which may even turn out to be a good long-term home). Give me a holler if you want to talk about some of those possibilities. It will be difficult to gauge what your actual student body is before you open. There will be many who say they are interested, but who won't show up and pay for classes for a variety of reasons.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Have you looked into rec centers and the like? There may be a place you could hold classes for the interim (and which may even turn out to be a good long-term home). Give me a holler if you want to talk about some of those possibilities. It will be difficult to gauge what your actual student body is before you open. There will be many who say they are interested, but who won't show up and pay for classes for a variety of reasons.


 
The rec centers around here are even worse when it comes to money I will need up front. First, they are more like $50 per hour, whereas the gym is more like $25. Second, they want me to have insurance up front too. The most affordable I have found is $350 per year. I know having insurance is important, as well as forming an LLC, but I don't have that much money ahead.

The good news is, I don't need to pay rent for this college course, nor do I need to worry about insurance because, for those 2 hours, I am considered an employee of the college and therefore covered under THEIR insurance.


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## Danny T (Jan 3, 2017)

As an intro I think it important to give the attendees something that:
1.  Makes them excited about having attended
2.  They walk away with something that they can actually do within the short period of the session.
3.  They gain a bit of understanding of the training system.
4.  They know where and how to get more information/training.


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## wayfaring (Jan 3, 2017)

How did this opportunity open up for you?  

As far as approaches to one-day seminars, the best I have seen is Grandmaster Garrett Gee.  He takes one concept and unpacks it, working throughout the day.  Some of the day topics have been covering:  pak sau, the backfist, yjkym and footwork, chi sau are a few of the topics I have seen him cover.   The days start out with building concepts.  Sometimes we demonstrate how another art does a technique.   Then the explanation of the art and how the technology in the art handles this particular concept.   Then there are specific drills to build up an understanding of this not just conceptually, but in body expression.   Several drills are done in succession, each one building upon the last one, and there are checkpoints built into the drills to show the student when they are wandering off track, like there are certain points where you can hit, or take someone's balance to illustrate the boundaries of the exercise and expression.

If I had to put together a 2 hour seminar I would completely model one of those Saturday workshops and try and break it down similarly.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 3, 2017)

wayfaring said:


> How did this opportunity open up for you?
> 
> As far as approaches to one-day seminars, the best I have seen is Grandmaster Garrett Gee.  He takes one concept and unpacks it, working throughout the day.  Some of the day topics have been covering:  pak sau, the backfist, yjkym and footwork, chi sau are a few of the topics I have seen him cover.   The days start out with building concepts.  Sometimes we demonstrate how another art does a technique.   Then the explanation of the art and how the technology in the art handles this particular concept.   Then there are specific drills to build up an understanding of this not just conceptually, but in body expression.   Several drills are done in succession, each one building upon the last one, and there are checkpoints built into the drills to show the student when they are wandering off track, like there are certain points where you can hit, or take someone's balance to illustrate the boundaries of the exercise and expression.
> 
> If I had to put together a 2 hour seminar I would completely model one of those Saturday workshops and try and break it down similarly.


 
I remembered that, when I went to college, they had several martial arts classes on campus in the evening. So what I did was call around and ask all the local colleges if I could hold a class on campus. With Hudson Valley, they said, "No, you can't hold a regular class. However, you could recommend it as a course for our Continuing Education classes." The rest is history.


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## marques (Jan 3, 2017)

I think it is ambitious for a 2 hours class. Besides, I like it. Warm up and cool down will consume some time. I would consider also a 5-10 minutes interval (drinking water, toilet, chatting...). About 1.5 hours remaining.

If you are afraid of showing too little, perhaps you can find a trained partner (did you get better friends lately?  ) just for showing the potential of WC (several techniques, drills, sparring...) perhaps in the last 10 min, when they are less motivated and concentrated to train theirselves.

Ask them their emails (for inscription). And invite them to your school, when it happens.


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## wayfaring (Jan 3, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I remembered that, when I went to college, they had several martial arts classes on campus in the evening. So what I did was call around and ask all the local colleges if I could hold a class on campus. With Hudson Valley, they said, "No, you can't hold a regular class. However, you could recommend it as a course for our Continuing Education classes." The rest is history.



Thanks for the tip.  I have a small local club I have just started up in the last year or so.  I have been teaching privates and in the park.  I also train ground at a BJJ school, and spar at a MMA school.   Those are more my test labs than they are a club co-host, but as things progress I will keep options open.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 3, 2017)

wayfaring said:


> Thanks for the tip.  I have a small local club I have just started up in the last year or so.  I have been teaching privates and in the park.  I also train ground at a BJJ school, and spar at a MMA school.   Those are more my test labs than they are a club co-host, but as things progress I will keep options open.


 
I wish the weather around here was good enough year-round to teach in the park. Right now the weather is miserable, so I have run out of options...except for things like this.


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## wayfaring (Jan 3, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I wish the weather around here was good enough year-round to teach in the park. Right now the weather is miserable, so I have run out of options...except for things like this.



Yes me too.  And again thank you for expanding my thoughts as to resources.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 3, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> As for explaining differences between other styles...I think that would be better suited for a longer class. If someone comes in and they have never done a martial art AT ALL, then they won't even know what differences I mean. I think this 2-hour class needs to focus simply on Wing Chun. Like GP said, in the name of transparency I could go over Wing Chun's flaws and explain why the systems still works (in my opinion).


By explaining the differences, I mean a general overview so that they won't say that they are learning a karate called Wing Chun or that they are learning a martial art that is similar to Wing Chun.  Something as simple as Wing Chun is from China, taekwondo is from Korea, Karate is from Japan, etc. is about as deep as you need to go.  Sifu is for Chinese martial arts, Sensai is for Japanese martial arts.  Although this information is basic, it will help them to avoid scams where a school says they do Kung Fu yet the teacher is called Sensai.  This way they can as the important questions like "Why do you call yourself Sensai instead of Sifu?"   Kung fu schools usually practice with shoes on, Japanese and Korean martial arts schools do not. Simple things like that are quick and easy things to remember.

I know I will be happy when people where live stop asking me.  "Kung fu? Is that some kind of Karate?"


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 3, 2017)

Here is something that work for me in finding a building to save our Jow Ga school after my Sifu went overseas.  I went to linkedin.com and looked for networking groups that were in my area.  I simply told my story and what I was looking for and what my goals were.  I got a response and some helpful suggestions from others.  The networking group you should look for is a small business networking group. A group that helps small businesses get started.  Sometimes people in these groups are willing to barter, if you have additional skill sets that may be helpful to them.  It doesn't matter if you have the skill set or if one of your most dedicated students has the skill set and is willing to help your school grow.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 3, 2017)

I also forgot.  Invest in a website if you don't already have one.  (don't use weebly, wix, or any of the other DIY websites)  It's cheaper to buy hosting from a web host provider and to have the website made to fit your current needs.  Wordpress and Joomla makes operating a website easier.

The reason why you want a website is so you can use it as an extension of your school.  If you can't afford a website at this time then use Facebook as a last resort.  Overall you want the website to be an extension of your school and Facebook for marketing purposes.  Your own dot com website is like having a business card.  It makes you look official and it helps to show the that your school is "here to stay."


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## wingchun100 (Jan 4, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Here is something that work for me in finding a building to save our Jow Ga school after my Sifu went overseas.  I went to linkedin.com and looked for networking groups that were in my area.  I simply told my story and what I was looking for and what my goals were.  I got a response and some helpful suggestions from others.  The networking group you should look for is a small business networking group. A group that helps small businesses get started.  Sometimes people in these groups are willing to barter, if you have additional skill sets that may be helpful to them.  It doesn't matter if you have the skill set or if one of your most dedicated students has the skill set and is willing to help your school grow.


 
Thank you for these tips. However, there is one thing I want to make clear: I have no school or students yet. I was recently given permission to teach, but I have yet to find anyone. So far all I have is a Craigslist ad up, which has gotten 3 replies. Out of those 3 replies, I met only one guy who was not interested in what I was offering.

Another guy was reluctant to meet in a public place like a park because he said "cops are suspicious of a black man in the park after sunset." (Those were his words, not mine.) Then he went on to admit he'd been in trouble with the cops before. From there, he proceeded to ask if we could just meet at my place instead. I said, "No offense but I don't know you, and I live with my girlfriend and her two kids." A few days later he texted me and said, "Are we still meeting?" I said, "Well you never confirmed whether or not you would be okay with my wish to meet in public at first, so I scheduled a lesson with someone who didn't mind meeting in a park." This was a bluff meant to see what his response would be...if he would cave in and comply to my wish. Nope! All he wrote back was, "Okay."

Last contact from the ad was a guy asking how much the lessons were. I told him first one is complimentary, so he could see if he liked it without any risk. Then I gave him the price for a private lesson...and never heard back.

It was my hope that I could get a couple students who were willing to invest a little BEFORE I tried renting anywhere. I would set aside the money from those private lessons for rent and insurance. So far, I have had next to NO bites...which, of course, bites!


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 4, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Thank you for these tips. However, there is one thing I want to make clear: I have no school or students yet. I was recently given permission to teach, but I have yet to find anyone. So far all I have is a Craigslist ad up, which has gotten 3 replies. Out of those 3 replies, I met only one guy who was not interested in what I was offering.
> 
> Another guy was reluctant to meet in a public place like a park because he said "cops are suspicious of a black man in the park after sunset." (Those were his words, not mine.) Then he went on to admit he'd been in trouble with the cops before. From there, he proceeded to ask if we could just meet at my place instead. I said, "No offense but I don't know you, and I live with my girlfriend and her two kids." A few days later he texted me and said, "Are we still meeting?" I said, "Well you never confirmed whether or not you would be okay with my wish to meet in public at first, so I scheduled a lesson with someone who didn't mind meeting in a park." This was a bluff meant to see what his response would be...if he would cave in and comply to my wish. Nope! All he wrote back was, "Okay."
> 
> ...


If you don't want to invest in a website at this time then you'll need to set up a Facebook page for your school and a Meetup.com page.  The reason that I keep saying school is because you are the teacher which makes you the school. You just don't have students at this time.
If the term school is uncomfortable to use then use the term "wing chun club." The main thing is that you need some way for people to learn more about what you teach, on their own time without having to contact you directly.   A Facebook page + a MeetUp page will allow you to market yourself and your club without spending tons of money.

 It may be a slow student build-up, depending on how deep the interest for Wing Chun is, but a slow build-up is better than no build-up.  The other thing you can do is to practice your Wing Chun where you plan to hold your class.  Even if it's just you in the park, be there at the time the class will normally be there and get your practice on.

And keep any email that you get with people who expressed interest and ask them nicely if they want to receive your club newsletter.  If they say no, then lose their email.  If they say yes, then it gives you a door way to market to them even if they don't want to do your class, they may know someone who does. Don't underestimate the power of word of mouth.


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## PiedmontChun (Jan 4, 2017)

The idea of meeting in a park or public space is very cool in theory but I would think it has disadvantages to overcome, like the weather, you might get hassled by police, lots of nosy onlookers. I know some 'private lesson' type sifus have made it work though, it really depends on your location I suppose. I would not give up on that idea, but have you considered your local YMCA or any privately owned gyms? YMCAs often have multi-purpose rooms they rent or allow use of. The town I live in has at least one or two mom and pop gyms in addition to the big corporate places like LA Fitness and Gold's Gym, that could be amiable to letting someone use some of their space if it sent a few dollars their way and didn't leach their customers. I personally know someone who owns a crossfit gym that is struggling financially with their overhead and actively looking for people to sublet space to. Depending on your area, there could be some opportunities like that to be had.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 4, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you don't want to invest in a website at this time then you'll need to set up a Facebook page for your school and a Meetup.com page.  The reason that I keep saying school is because you are the teacher which makes you the school. You just don't have students at this time.
> If the term school is uncomfortable to use then use the term "wing chun club." The main thing is that you need some way for people to learn more about what you teach, on their own time without having to contact you directly.   A Facebook page + a MeetUp page will allow you to market yourself and your club without spending tons of money.
> 
> It may be a slow student build-up, depending on how deep the interest for Wing Chun is, but a slow build-up is better than no build-up.  The other thing you can do is to practice your Wing Chun where you plan to hold your class.  Even if it's just you in the park, be there at the time the class will normally be there and get your practice on.
> ...


I'd encourage at least a single-page website to start with. It's easy enough to create a generic placeholder in Wordpress (or Joomla) and add your text to it (someone on Fiverr.com  or Gigbucks.com will do it for about $5-10). And you can add posts and pages as you see fit later.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 4, 2017)

PiedmontChun said:


> The idea of meeting in a park or public space is very cool in theory but I would think it has disadvantages to overcome, like the weather, you might get hassled by police, lots of nosy onlookers. I know some 'private lesson' type sifus have made it work though, it really depends on your location I suppose. I would not give up on that idea, but have you considered your local YMCA or any privately owned gyms? YMCAs often have multi-purpose rooms they rent or allow use of. The town I live in has at least one or two mom and pop gyms in addition to the big corporate places like LA Fitness and Gold's Gym, that could be amiable to letting someone use some of their space if it sent a few dollars their way and didn't leach their customers. I personally know someone who owns a crossfit gym that is struggling financially with their overhead and actively looking for people to sublet space to. Depending on your area, there could be some opportunities like that to be had.


I know the OP has already been looking at those, and is investigating some new ideas there. Finding space is one of the hardest parts of starting a new program if you can't afford to take a bunch of losses and/or it's going to be a very small program.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 4, 2017)

PiedmontChun said:


> The idea of meeting in a park or public space is very cool in theory but I would think it has disadvantages to overcome, like the weather, you might get hassled by police, lots of nosy onlookers. I know some 'private lesson' type sifus have made it work though, it really depends on your location I suppose. I would not give up on that idea, but have you considered your local YMCA or any privately owned gyms? YMCAs often have multi-purpose rooms they rent or allow use of. The town I live in has at least one or two mom and pop gyms in addition to the big corporate places like LA Fitness and Gold's Gym, that could be amiable to letting someone use some of their space if it sent a few dollars their way and didn't leach their customers. I personally know someone who owns a crossfit gym that is struggling financially with their overhead and actively looking for people to sublet space to. Depending on your area, there could be some opportunities like that to be had.


 
Many of the other replies to this thread have suggested YMCA's and gyms. I have already addressed the problems I have run into with those.

As for the park: yes, the weather is a problem. As for nosy onlookers, I couldn't care less if people are staring at us or mocking us or what have you. The police usually don't hassle anyone in the park unless it is after dark.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 4, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'd encourage at least a single-page website to start with. It's easy enough to create a generic placeholder in Wordpress (or Joomla) and add your text to it (someone on Fiverr.com  or Gigbucks.com will do it for about $5-10). And you can add posts and pages as you see fit later.


Gpseymour is right.  Having some kind of website (non-facebook, non-meetup).  Sometimes we just have to invest in what we really need.  Free is nice but, it doesn't make the road any easier to travel.  Getting a domain + website (running off Wordpress or Joomla) is a worth while investment and he would have a year to break even from that investment.

Facebook and MeetUp.com are great marketing tools, but shouldn't be thought of as a permanent solution for not having a webpage.  Sooner or later, by force or by choice, you will have a website.  When people look for martial arts schools in the area, the first thing they will do is google for a Wing Chun school.  If you don't pop up on that list then your customers won't find you.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 4, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Gpseymour is right.  Having some kind of website (non-facebook, non-meetup).  Sometimes we just have to invest in what we really need.  Free is nice but, it doesn't make the road any easier to travel.  Getting a domain + website (running off Wordpress or Joomla) is a worth while investment and he would have a year to break even from that investment.
> 
> Facebook and MeetUp.com are great marketing tools, but shouldn't be thought of as a permanent solution for not having a webpage.  Sooner or later, by force or by choice, you will have a website.  When people look for martial arts schools in the area, the first thing they will do is google for a Wing Chun school.  If you don't pop up on that list then your customers won't find you.


 
Right. The problem is having the funds ahead of time for that. I am trying to save, but it isn't easy. I was hoping the money from a few private students would help out. LOL


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## PiedmontChun (Jan 4, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Many of the other replies to this thread have suggested YMCA's and gyms. I have already addressed the problems I have run into with those.
> 
> As for the park: yes, the weather is a problem. As for nosy onlookers, I couldn't care less if people are staring at us or mocking us or what have you. The police usually don't hassle anyone in the park unless it is after dark.



Sorry, that was my fault for skipping from the first couple posts on to the 2nd page in haste while here at work. Best of luck to you though - in finding something that allows you to retain students, but doesn't create a bunch of overhead to manage on top of teaching.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 4, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Right. The problem is having the funds ahead of time for that. I am trying to save, but it isn't easy. I was hoping the money from a few private students would help out. LOL


You can get a first year for just a few bucks. I'll PM you.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 4, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Right. The problem is having the funds ahead of time for that. I am trying to save, but it isn't easy. I was hoping the money from a few private students would help out. LOL


 I'll give you a push lol. 
Get a hosting account at Hostgator.com  You want the Baby plan which you can now get with 25% off on the price for 1 year. This will allow you to host unlimited domains on the same account. Don't get any of the extra hosting mess like backup and whatever else they check for you.  Make sure your domain name is something that someone can easily spell and remember if you were to tell someone in person. WhiteCrane+WingChun or yourlastname+WingChun, your city name+WingChun, or wingchunacademy etc.  If you plan moving out of your city in the next 5 years then don't use city name as part of your domain. 

Right now the cost of your website is around $107.41 
WordPress and Joomla are free so there's no additional cost there.  

Still too much go to www.Joomla.com
Get a free website with them using Joomla. They offer free joomla website templates that you can use.

or go to www.wordpress.com and get a free wordpress website

You now have 3 options.  The free options will get you started with something simple until you can pay the 107.41 with a better domain name than  mywebsite.joomla or mywebsite.wordpress


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## wingchun100 (Jan 4, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'll give you a push lol.
> Get a hosting account at Hostgator.com  You want the Baby plan which you can now get with 25% off on the price for 1 year. This will allow you to host unlimited domains on the same account. Don't get any of the extra hosting mess like backup and whatever else they check for you.  Make sure your domain name is something that someone can easily spell and remember if you were to tell someone in person. WhiteCrane+WingChun or yourlastname+WingChun, your city name+WingChun, or wingchunacademy etc.  If you plan moving out of your city in the next 5 years then don't use city name as part of your domain.
> 
> Right now the cost of your website is around $107.41
> ...


 

Oh, I had already thought of the free site, but when you said avoid Weebly and so on, I figured free was out. I mean, as you can see from my signature, I already have one free site on there. The thing is, it doesn't have the most memorable URL at the moment.

Thanks for all this help.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 4, 2017)

The problem with Weebly and Wix is that they are very limited and you'll have difficulty in transferring them to a better hosting company.  In most cases you'll have to redesign your website and retype the wording unless you do a copy and paste.

Wordpress and Joomla can be transferred to any hosting company so there's no need to change redesign it when you transfer your site to a different hosting company.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 4, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Gpseymour is right.  Having some kind of website (non-facebook, non-meetup).  Sometimes we just have to invest in what we really need.  Free is nice but, it doesn't make the road any easier to travel.  Getting a domain + website (running off Wordpress or Joomla) is a worth while investment and he would have a year to break even from that investment.
> 
> Facebook and MeetUp.com are great marketing tools, but shouldn't be thought of as a permanent solution for not having a webpage.  Sooner or later, by force or by choice, you will have a website.  When people look for martial arts schools in the area, the first thing they will do is google for a Wing Chun school.  If you don't pop up on that list then your customers won't find you.


I'm not on facebook, so when I see some reference to checking out someone's facebook page for their martial arts, i stop there.  Can't sign in, can't see what they have.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 12, 2017)

Update: the class is now scheduled for February 23 at 7:15pm. My friend came over, and we "rehearsed" what I will do and say as the class progresses. Things ran pretty smoothly. The only thing I could not factor into my time estimate was, of course, how long it might take to introduce people, how long it might take for questions, going around to correct everyone's form, and so on.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 12, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I'm not on facebook, so when I see some reference to checking out someone's facebook page for their martial arts, i stop there.  Can't sign in, can't see what they have.


Yep that's the downside.  But if you have a school then a facebook page for your school can greatly reduce marketing costs.  In short, it's free and effective advertising.

Websites are still a must because it shows that the person is serious enough about what they are doing to invest in a website.  Website has other benefits as well such as being an extension of the physical school.


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## JR 137 (Jan 13, 2017)

I haven't read through the all the posts, so please forgive me if it's already been covered/said...

Keep the talking minimal in the beginning.  Yes, introduce yourself, give a brief overview of Wing Chun and what they'll do, but don't get carried away.  Keep it brief and to the point.  Get them up and moving soon, as that's what they're there for.  Save the "selling points" of Wing Chun for the closure.  Coming from a phys ed teaching background, you'll lose some students' interest if you're taking too long to get to it.

Demo something at the end as part of your closure.  This will give them a better idea of what you and your system are about.  If you taught the basic blocks you spoke of and they're in a form, demo the form.  Then demo an application of the form.

The closure will probably be what they remember most, from a talking standpoint.  It should cover what they did, why they did it, and what to expect if they become actual students.

Telling the Wing Chun was Bruce Lee's original art will probably get their attention.  Perhaps open with that.

Edit:  PM sent.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 13, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yep that's the downside.  But if you have a school then a facebook page for your school can greatly reduce marketing costs.  In short, it's free and effective advertising.
> 
> Websites are still a must because it shows that the person is serious enough about what they are doing to invest in a website.  Website has other benefits as well such as being an extension of the physical school.



My problem is I don't have a lot of Facebook friends who are in my area. Those who are, are not interested in studying martial arts. And those who are interested in studying martial arts, are usually already studying OTHER martial arts. LOL


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> My problem is I don't have a lot of Facebook friends who are in my area. Those who are, are not interested in studying martial arts. And those who are interested in studying martial arts, are usually already studying OTHER martial arts. LOL


Your program's FB page isn't so much for your friends as for folks searching on FB. Apparently there's a of folks who use FB like I once used AOL.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Your program's FB page isn't so much for your friends as for folks searching on FB. Apparently there's a of folks who use FB like I once used AOL.


 
Right. Well, there is still a way to teach people even if they find me only on Facebook: video and/or Skype instruction, although I loathe the idea of learning online. You cannot get a feel for the sensitivity involved in Chi Sao. Then again, learning ANY martial art via online is bad. For example, how can you tell you have the proper distance needed to land a Tae Kwon Do side kick if you have no partner?

However, for some people living in remote areas, it may be the only option.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Right. Well, there is still a way to teach people even if they find me only on Facebook: video and/or Skype instruction, although I loathe the idea of learning online. You cannot get a feel for the sensitivity involved in Chi Sao. Then again, learning ANY martial art via online is bad. For example, how can you tell you have the proper distance needed to land a Tae Kwon Do side kick if you have no partner?
> 
> However, for some people living in remote areas, it may be the only option.


If you make it localized (which you can do once you have a space to work with), the folks that find it will probably mostly be local.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If you make it localized (which you can do once you have a space to work with), the folks that find it will probably mostly be local.


 
I was thinking of changing things up a bit. Rather than go to the place I have described in the past where I would have to pay rent, I can always reserve rooms at local libraries. Believe it or not, they actually do allow their big meeting rooms to be reserved for things like that, as long as they are free to the public. If I don't have to pay rent, then it doesn't matter if I have to make it a free class because I am losing NO investment.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I was thinking of changing things up a bit. Rather than go to the place I have described in the past where I would have to pay rent, I can always reserve rooms at local libraries. Believe it or not, they actually do allow their big meeting rooms to be reserved for things like that, as long as they are free to the public. If I don't have to pay rent, then it doesn't matter if I have to make it a free class because I am losing NO investment.


That may be effective for starting out, give you a chance to get used to teaching. Just know that folks who join a free program will likely not become paying students - there's a reason they chose the free program. You'll either have to grandfather them in (let them stay free) or just accept that many will vanish when you get ready to start charging. Still, nothing lost in the process, and if you picked up one or two people who got hooked on the classes and could afford to pay, that's a start.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 13, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> free class ...


Free class is a bad idea. People won't respect your art.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Free class is a bad idea. People won't respect your art.


I don't know about that. Nobody has cost-related disrespect for the yoga class I attend, and it's free. There are certainly some who won't have the same level of respect, and many may wonder why it's free, but most who have real interest will end up with the same level of respect if they try it out, whether it's free or not. Now, they'll definitely tend to be more casual about attendance when it's free - we tend to work harder to get our money's worth when we pay.


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## Cephalopod (Jan 13, 2017)

Hey '100, it seems like your intention is simply to get a group together to practice the art you love rather than dive into a profit generating endeavor. I like that and I think that you should present it that way to those who choose to join you.
However...
You can also be upfront with them and say that you want to build the group to the point where you can afford to rent a space that can be equipped for better training (with mook, wall bags, etc.). To that end, you are looking for participants who are willing and able to contribute some monthly dues. Doesn't have to be right away...the library will suffice for a month or two to see if people are interested. But be upfront with your plan.
I think that those who would make worthy students would stick around and the others...well, who needs 'em anyway.


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## Cephalopod (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know about that. Nobody has cost-related disrespect for the yoga class I attend, and it's free. There are certainly some who won't have the same level of respect, and many may wonder why it's free, but most who have real interest will end up with the same level of respect if they try it out, whether it's free or not. Now, they'll definitely tend to be more casual about attendance when it's free - we tend to work harder to get our money's worth when we pay.



It can become disheartening when you try hard to teach your best, and people drift in and out of the group.  They will do this more it its free IMHO...it's human nature to take for granted that which costs nothing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

Cephalopod said:


> Hey '100, it seems like your intention is simply to get a group together to practice the art you love rather than dive into a profit generating endeavor. I like that and I think that you should present it that way to those who choose to join you.
> However...
> You can also be upfront with them and say that you want to build the group to the point where you can afford to rent a space that can be equipped for better training (with mook, wall bags, etc.). To that end, you are looking for participants who are willing and able to contribute some monthly dues. Doesn't have to be right away...the library will suffice for a month or two to see if people are interested. But be upfront with your plan.
> I think that those who would make worthy students would stick around and the others...well, who needs 'em anyway.


Agreed. My point was just that the OP has to take that into account when figuring how many students he needs to pay for a space.


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## yak sao (Jan 13, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I was thinking of changing things up a bit. Rather than go to the place I have described in the past where I would have to pay rent, I can always reserve rooms at local libraries. Believe it or not, they actually do allow their big meeting rooms to be reserved for things like that, as long as they are free to the public. If I don't have to pay rent, then it doesn't matter if I have to make it a free class because I am losing NO investment.



You could then offer private classes which of course you would charge for to the students who are interested, and have them in a different location


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## JR 137 (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know about that. Nobody has cost-related disrespect for the yoga class I attend, and it's free. There are certainly some who won't have the same level of respect, and many may wonder why it's free, but most who have real interest will end up with the same level of respect if they try it out, whether it's free or not. Now, they'll definitely tend to be more casual about attendance when it's free - we tend to work harder to get our money's worth when we pay.



The average cost of MA in my (and Wing Chun 100's) area is about $125/month with an annual contract.  There's places that charge more in a "black belt plan" way.

My CI charges $55/month for adults, $45 for kids.  Discount is $10 off each person (1 person is full price) for families.

I have several friends who send their kids to the McDojos.  I've told them about where I train and how much it costs.  They always, always give me the same look - they're getting premium instruction for their premium tuition, and I'm getting clearance quality instruction for a clearance price.  Two people send their kids to the McDojo that's 5 blocks away and on the same road, so it's not like it's out of their way.

My CI says he always wondered how many students he'd get if he jacked up the price.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 13, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Right. Well, there is still a way to teach people even if they find me only on Facebook: video and/or Skype instruction, although I loathe the idea of learning online. You cannot get a feel for the sensitivity involved in Chi Sao. Then again, learning ANY martial art via online is bad. For example, how can you tell you have the proper distance needed to land a Tae Kwon Do side kick if you have no partner?
> 
> However, for some people living in remote areas, it may be the only option.


Don't do it. It's a slippery slope once you compromise your standards once.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 13, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Free class is a bad idea. People won't respect your art.


The teaching I have done has been for free, and my students definitely see the quality in it.

And, it gives me the power to say no to anybody I don't want to teach, for any reason or for no reason at all.

I guarantee you, I will never have a problem student who last more than about two classes.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> ou'll either have to grandfather them in (let them stay free) or just accept that many will vanish when you get ready to start charging.


I would grandfather them in because at least then you can use those students as marketing material to get paying students to join.  People are more likely to join when they see that you have students. The new student's automatically assume that the current students at the school are paying, so if they are paying then the class must be worth the money.  Once people get hooked on the classes and the friendships that are created from the classes, then they will be willing to pay if it helps to keep the school open which in terms helps to keep that part of their social life available.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Nobody has cost-related disrespect for the yoga class I attend, and it's free.


When I taught free in UT Austin, I had 2 students. 3 months later, when I charged the normal fee, I got 50 students.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I taught free in UT Austin, I had 2 students. 3 months later, when I charged the normal fee, I got 50 students.


That's not a respect issue, it's about perceived value, and it applies to everything (we think wine is better if we're told it's more expensive).


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I would grandfather them in because at least then you can use those students as marketing material to get paying students to join.  People are more likely to join when they see that you have students. The new student's automatically assume that the current students at the school are paying, so if they are paying then the class must be worth the money.  Once people get hooked on the classes and the friendships that are created from the classes, then they will be willing to pay if it helps to keep the school open which in terms helps to keep that part of their social life available.


This would be my approach, too. I'd rather have a few non-paying students who are committed and helping make the classes more interesting.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 13, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> My CI charges $55/month for adults, ...


That's pretty low. I used to charge $30/month back in 1973. That was 43 years ago.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's pretty low. I used to charge $30/month back in 1973. That was 43 years ago.


The last amount I paid was somewhere around $90/month. I charge $50, because that's what folks expect at the facility I use. If I don't pick up more students soon, I'm raising rates and running a new marketing campaign.


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## JR 137 (Jan 13, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's pretty low. I used to charge $30/month back in 1973. That was 43 years ago.


My CI retired from one of the trade unions last year.  His wife retired around the same time from a state job.  They've both got pretty good pensions/retirement plans.  It's always been a way for him to continue his training.  The rent is cheap.  I think it probably pays the overhead, pays for him to go to NYC to train every month or so and assist with black belt tests a few times a year.  Maybe even a vacation or two every year.  I can't imagine it making much more money than that.

Come to think of it, he started the dojo because the 2 guys who were in charge in the area had a falling out and left the organization.  He was an assistant instructor under both of them and about 4th dan at the time.  So instead of leaving the organization, choosing between those two, or stopping training, he started a dojo.  That was about 30 years ago.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 13, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> And, it gives me the power to say no to anybody I don't want to teach, for any reason or for no reason at all.


I agree that to have the freedom to stop a class whenever you want is important. I don't charge monthly. I only charge a set fee for 2 hours class. This way, after 1 class, I can also quit whenever I want to.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The last amount I paid was somewhere around $90/month. I charge $50, because that's what folks expect at the facility I use. If I don't pick up more students soon, I'm raising rates and running a new marketing campaign.


 I charge $50 per individual and $60 for the family package.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I charge $50 per individual and $60 for the family package.


That's a good deal on the family package. I just knock the price down $10 on each subsequent family member. So one person is $50, two are $90, three are $120, four would be $140, and anything beyond that I'd get tired of counting.


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## JR 137 (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That's a good deal on the family package. I just knock the price down $10 on each subsequent family member. So one person is $50, two are $90, three are $120, four would be $140, and anything beyond that I'd get tired of counting.



My CI does the same.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That's a good deal on the family package.


It is a good deal.  Here's the effect of it.

*Family members=17*
2 mothers now train with their son.
2 fathers now train with their son
A family of 3
1 couple (boy friend + girlfriend)
1 married couple
1 father and daughter

*Individuals=3* 
1 male who couldn't get his girlfriend to join
1 female who is single
1 teenage girl


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> It is a good deal.  Here's the effect of it.
> 
> *Family members=17*
> 2 mothers now train with their son.
> ...


I'd probably think about it if I accepted anyone under 16. I've only had one family get above 2 people in class, and that was just while a college-age daughter was home for the Summer. I've been thinking of expanding the discount to friends. So, if someone training with me brings in a friend, they get $10 off for as long as that friend is a student. Bring in enough friends, and you'd pay nothing.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'd probably think about it if I accepted anyone under 16. I've only had one family get above 2 people in class, and that was just while a college-age daughter was home for the Summer. I've been thinking of expanding the discount to friends. So, if someone training with me brings in a friend, they get $10 off for as long as that friend is a student. Bring in enough friends, and you'd pay nothing.


That actually sounds good.  I'll have to see how I can market martial arts as a group activity for college students.  Sort of like how friends go workout at the same gym.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> That actually sounds good.  I'll have to see how I can market martial arts as a group activity for college students.  Sort of like how friends go workout at the same gym.


My thinking is that it would build that sense of community faster, and it gives a simple, no-embarrassment way for someone in financial straits to cover their tuition if they can manage to bring people in.

And people with friends in class have better attendance.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 14, 2017)

For some reason it is not letting me quote people in replies today, so...

Cephalopod:

Those were my thoughts exactly. Give them a heads up the intention would be to change to somewhere where I WILL be paying rent, and that would mean tuition. However, I could keep track of those who joined and stuck with me when it was free, and they could get a lifetime discount for that.

Originally I was a bit concerned about the money, but for a very good reason: if I don't get paid, then I CANNOT afford the rent or insurance right out of pocket. Luckily, the gym that offered me space was okay with me not having insurance right away, as long as I created a waiver for people to sign.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 14, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I would grandfather them in because at least then you can use those students as marketing material to get paying students to join.  People are more likely to join when they see that you have students. The new student's automatically assume that the current students at the school are paying, so if they are paying then the class must be worth the money.  Once people get hooked on the classes and the friendships that are created from the classes, then they will be willing to pay if it helps to keep the school open which in terms helps to keep that part of their social life available.



Oh NOW it lets me quote people.

I would really prefer to grandfather people in. However, there would still be the concern of me having the rent up front. Maybe if I get anyone who sticks with me, I could do something like starting a fundraise: "Hey, folks, I want to move to a place where we can have more equipment and the space is ours, but since I don't charge tuition, I don't have the first month's rent and security deposit that the place wants, so I am starting a fundraiser." 

If no one donates, then...oh well. But I could make it worth their time by offering free private lessons or something of that nature...maybe.

Nothing I say is definite. I am just brainstorming right now. 

One other great option: if this class at Hudson Valley goes well, I can offer another that would be longer. Then another that is longer. And then maybe one more. And save the money they pay me toward the same fees I mentioned above.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This would be my approach, too. I'd rather have a few non-paying students who are committed and helping make the classes more interesting.



Right, and then newbies would have "senior" students to train with and learn from, people who would give them something to aim for.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. My point was just that the OP has to take that into account when figuring how many students he needs to pay for a space.



The space is asking $100 for one month. I think I could easily get away with asking $100 per month tuition, and break even after ONE student.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 14, 2017)

yak sao said:


> You could then offer private classes which of course you would charge for to the students who are interested, and have them in a different location



My thoughts exactly. Group classes free at library, private lessons cost.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> The space is asking $100 for one month. I think I could easily get away with asking $100 per month tuition, and break even after ONE student.


Since on any given month there's a chance someone will quit, you'd need a minimum of two paying students to cover costs (the second is in case the first quits). Still a fairly low target. And your insurance for a small program will probably be about $500-700/year, unless something's significantly different in NY (and it often is, especially with insurance). So three students covers all of your expenses, plus a bit to hold back for equipment, even allowing that one may quit. When you get to 7 or 8, the math gets easier, and you may actually get to take some home.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 14, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I would really prefer to grandfather people in. However, there would still be the concern of me having the rent up front.


If they enjoy your company and the exercises then they will probably be willing to chip in to help get a place to train especially if they don't have to pay the full price.  The trick is to get them to a point were training with you becomes an important part of their social life.  Once training reaches that level, then it's really difficult to just drop it after they have made friends and personal connections.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> If they enjoy your company and the exercises then they will probably be willing to chip in to help get a place to train especially if they don't have to pay the full price.  The trick is to get them to a point were training with you becomes an important part of their social life.  Once training reaches that level, then it's really difficult to just drop it after they have made friends and personal connections.


And this social connection is part of why it's easier to keep students when you have more students. That way, when one leaves, it doesn't change the entire feel of the room.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 14, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> The space is asking $100 for one month. I think I could easily get away with asking $100 per month tuition, and break even after ONE student.



I would recommend don't charge anything per month and don't teach martial arts as a money making enterprise. 

If you do need to charge to cover your time and/or premises then charge by attendance. Monthly charges are a big turn off to many people, and they make you a business, which changes the way you teach.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> I would recommend don't charge anything per month and don't teach martial arts as a money making enterprise.
> 
> If you do need to charge to cover your time and/or premises then charge by attendance. Monthly charges are a big turn off to many people, and they make you a business, which changes the way you teach.


Charging anything makes you run like a business, and that's not necessarily going to change the way anyone teaches. And many of us actually expect monthly charges. I don't want to have to pay every time I walk into a school if I have a choice to pay for the whole month in advance.

Those differences may all be due to cultural differences. In the US, charging by the month is the norm.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Charging anything makes you run like a business, and that's not necessarily going to change the way anyone teaches. And many of us actually expect monthly charges. I don't want to have to pay every time I walk into a school if I have a choice to pay for the whole month in advance.
> 
> Those differences may all be due to cultural differences. In the US, charging by the month is the norm.



In Europe also the norm, but not popular with some learners who tend to be worth teaching. Running like a health club attracts a certain tyoe of student. Running ike a low cost boxing gym or a personal contact based on trust attracts a different type. 

Charging to cover time and/or rental is not running like a business, it is covering costs only.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> In Europe also the norm, but not popular with some learners who tend to be worth teaching. Running like a health club attracts a certain tyoe of student. Running ike a low cost boxing gym or a personal contact based on trust attracts a different type.
> 
> Charging to cover time and/or rental is not running like a business, it is covering costs only.


I know of very few people around here who don't prefer monthly. My students have the choice, and they choose monthly unless they're only going to make a couple of classes that month. Mind you, I charge less on a monthly basis. I can afford to, because the math to cover expenses is easier and more consistent. That's the same math a business has to do to cover profit margin, a non-profit has to do to cover salaries, and a hobbyist has to do to cover expenses.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> I would recommend don't charge anything per month and don't teach martial arts as a money making enterprise.
> 
> If you do need to charge to cover your time and/or premises then charge by attendance. Monthly charges are a big turn off to many people, and they make you a business, which changes the way you teach.



How do you charge by attendance?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> How do you charge by attendance?


Folks can pay by the class. They show up with cash-in-hand for the day. Most of the schools I know would call it a "mat fee".


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> Charging to cover time and/or rental is not running like a business, it is covering costs only


So how will you have enough money to invest in training equipment and other things for students if you are only covering costs?  If your rent is $100 and you are only covering costs then you can't afford to invest into the training beyond $100


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Folks can pay by the class. They show up with cash-in-hand for the day. Most of the schools I know would call it a "mat fee".


 ohhhhhhh.. mmm.  nope. definitely wouldn't work where I live. I would actually lose students.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 14, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> How do you charge by attendance?



They pay when they come for a class. Otherwise they don't.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 14, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> ohhhhhhh.. mmm.  nope. definitely wouldn't work where I live. I would actually lose students.



Why would you lose students by removing charges when they don't attend class and by removing pay in advance?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> ohhhhhhh.. mmm.  nope. definitely wouldn't work where I live. I would actually lose students.


It's a good solution for folks who are going to be out most of a month (something that happens regularly with my students), but nobody seems to be interested in it otherwise. I could see someone considering it when they start, but the cost for a month is the same as the cost of 5 classes, so they lose money if they come in twice a week for 3 weeks. I've considered letting folks buy a 10-class or 20-class package, to get a price similar to the monthly cost. Right now it would be too difficult to keep track of. If I ever get that database program to a beta stage, that kind of tracking would be part of what I'd have available.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> Why would you lose students by removing charges when they don't attend class and by removing pay in advance?


Most folks attend 6-12 classes per month. The monthly fee is usually lower than that many classes of individual class payments. And people who haven't paid in advance are statistically less likely to show up for a class, which makes class planning less predictable.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I know of very few people around here who don't prefer monthly. My students have the choice, and they choose monthly unless they're only going to make a couple of classes that month. Mind you, I charge less on a monthly basis. I can afford to, because the math to cover expenses is easier and more consistent. That's the same math a business has to do to cover profit margin, a non-profit has to do to cover salaries, and a hobbyist has to do to cover expenses.



This doesn't change the fact that different payment methods attract different kinds of people. 

And if you have students that you trust and who are committed, there is no reason not to charge by attendance. Monthly only necessary in an impersonal situation where you are unsure if people will turn up when they say they will.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> This doesn't change the fact that different payment methods attract different kinds of people.
> 
> And if you have students that you trust and who are committed, there is no reason not to charge by attendance. Monthly only necessary in an impersonal situation where you are unsure if people will turn up when they say they will.


My experience is that, in the US, pay-per-class attracts students who don't come on a regular basis.

And, yes, there are many reasons not to use pay-per-attendance. I've outlined some. Here are a few I can think of (some are repeats): people attend more regularly when they pay in advance (better for their learning), more predictable math (less need to focus on it), it's typically less expensive for regular students.

If the monthly is the same price as the per-class, and folks are planning to come on a regular basis, there's really no benefit to them in paying on a per-class basis. The only advantage in a per-class basis is for those who won't be attending regularly. That's why I have that option. You seem convinced that folks would much prefer to pay by the class, but at one time I had a per-class that was 1/7 of the monthly (meaning if they missed just one class a month, they'd do as well or better with the per-class rate). Folks only went with the per-class rate on months when they didn't know if they'd be attending, or if they knew for a fact they were only going to be in for 2 weeks (maximum 4 classes). Clearly, they preferred the monthly payment. It's easier for them, and they will often choose it even if it's a few bucks more expensive.

Because the monthly rate is easier for me, I actually make it a really good deal, compared to the per-class rate.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> people who haven't paid in advance are statistically less likely to show up for a class, which makes class planning less predictable.



I would say the opposite is the case. Lots of peope start payment plans for gyms, leasure activities and martial arts and never or rarely attend. This is because they like the idea of it but don't like the reality. Later they cancel their payment. 

If you work the opposite way around, make the class so that only committed people are likely to be interested, and make the charge (to cover costs) based on personal trust making it obvious that attendance is necessary, then I think much more likely to get a group of self motivated students really interested in learning who are prepared to go the extra mile. Obviously not an option if you are trying to make money from teaching, but I think that is a bad idea anyway.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> I would say the opposite is the case. Lots of peope start payment plans for gyms, leasure activities and martial arts and never or rarely attend. This is because they like the idea of it but don't like the reality. Later they cancel their payment.
> 
> If you work the opposite way around, make the class so that only committed people are likely to be interested, and make the charge (to cover costs) based on personal trust making it obvious that attendance is necessary, then I think much more likely to get a group of self motivated students really interested in learning who are prepared to go the extra mile. Obviously not an option if you are trying to make money from teaching, but I think that is a bad idea anyway.


I don't know where you're getting your ideas. Mine comes from research by both businesses and psychologists.

You seem convinced there's something bad about monthly pay. Yet committed students nearly universally prefer it around here. Perhaps there's a bit of a cultural difference between your experience and mine?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> Obviously not an option if you are trying to make money from teaching, but I think that is a bad idea anyway.


I'm not sure why you think it's a bad idea for someone to make money teaching. They do it with science classes every day.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If the monthly is the same price as the per-class, and folks are planning to come on a regular basis, there's really no benefit to them in paying on a per-class basis.



It is always beneficial in any financial transaction to pay later rather than earlier. Keeping your own money in your own pocket for the maximum time is advantageous. If your students don't recognise this then I would say they are not like people I have experience of


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> It is always beneficial in any financial transaction to pay later rather than earlier. Keeping your own money in your own pocket for the maximum time is advantageous. If your students don't recognise this then I would say they are not like people I have experience of


Not unless they are earning interest on it. And if they pay less by paying early, there's zero advantage if they're going to spend the money eventually.

So, you're just convinced you know the reality here. I wasn't aware you ran a program in the US. Or lived in the US. Or had done the research on how people react to pricing and how payments affect attendance.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know where you're getting your ideas. Mine comes from research by both businesses and psychologists.



Experience 



> You seem convinced there's something bad about monthly pay. Yet committed students nearly universally prefer it around here. Perhaps there's a bit of a cultural difference between your experience and mine?



It isn't sensible to pay in advance if you can avoid it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> Experience


In the US? And with teaching martial arts? 



> It isn't sensible to pay in advance if you can avoid it.


Do the math.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Not unless they are earning interest on it.



Everyone is earning interest with time, unless they are mismanaging their finances?


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure why you think it's a bad idea for someone to make money teaching. They do it with science classes every day.



I think a good idea with science classes, but a bad idea with martial arts classes


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> Everyone is earning interest with time, unless they are mismanaging their finances?


Entirely untrue. There are almost no personal checking accounts (and few business checking accounts) that pay any interest on deposited money in the US. And even Savings accounts pay a trivial amount, such that the amount a person would add to their finances over a year of delaying payments by 1-3 weeks (as opposed to paying monthly) would be less than $0.10. And then you factor the time and effort of managing paying twice a week for a year, rather than once a month (transferring the money from Savings each time), and they've spent at least an hour of their time to earn those ten cents.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> I think a good idea with science classes, but a bad idea with martial arts classes


You still haven't explained why. Martial arts aren't a religion. It's a skill. If someone teaches painting, science, automotive repair, physical education, or any other topic, they should have the option of making money. The same holds for martial arts, and always has.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Entirely untrue. There are almost no personal checking accounts (and few business checking accounts) that pay any interest on deposited money in the US. And even Savings accounts pay a trivial amount, such that the amount a person would add to their finances over a year of delaying payments by 1-3 weeks (as opposed to paying monthly) would be less than $0.10. And then you factor the time and effort of managing paying twice a week for a year, rather than once a month (transferring the money from Savings each time), and they've spent at least an hour of their time to earn those ten cents.



Why would anyone have their money in place not earning interest


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> Why would anyone have their money in place not earning interest


Because there's not a short-term storage method that provides any significant interest.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You still haven't explained why. Martial arts aren't a religion. It's a skill. If someone teaches painting, science, automotive repair, physical education, or any other topic, they should have the option of making money. The same holds for martial arts, and always has.



I tend to think that martial arts is full of frauds, and that there are very few decent teachers. Given this I feel that personal trust and lack of a financial motive is very important. Plus there are so many easier and better ways to make money than teaching MA- in the end why bother, better to do it for the love


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Because there's not a short-term storage method that provides any significant interest.



I think you are mistaken


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If someone teaches painting, science, automotive repair, physical education, or any other topic, they should have the option of making money. The same holds for martial arts, and always has.


I can teach

- 200 different throws. If I just charge $10 each, that will be 200 x 10 = $2,000.
- 50 different forms. If I just charge $50 for each form, that will be 50 x 50 = $2,500.

Sometime I think to treat MA as "retail business" is not a bad idea.

A: I also want to learn counters for "hip throw".
B: I can teach you 10 different counters. That will be $2 each. But if you want to learn all 10 counters, I can give you for $16.99.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> I tend to think that martial arts is full of frauds, and that there are very few decent teachers. Given this I feel that personal trust and lack of a financial motive is very important. Plus there are so many easier and better ways to make money than teaching MA- in the end why bother, better to do it for the love


All irrelevant to the person teaching martial arts, putting in their best effort, and setting aside a lot of their personal and/or professional time for it. I make next to nothing teaching (probably less than nothing), but I have no problem with those who earn a living at it. I'm not willing to teach kids (almost necessary) nor that many evenings (absolutely necessary) so I'll never support myself on martial arts. Others have a higher level of commitment to the activity of teaching, and they should be paid commensurate with that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> I think you are mistaken


I've been living in the US for 46 years. I've been working with banks for 25. Want to tell me where I'm mistaken?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I can teach
> 
> - 200 different throws. If I just charge $10 each, that will be 200 x 10 = $2,000.
> - 50 different forms. If I just charge $50 for each form, that will be 50 x 50 = $2,500.
> ...


If only it worked that way, eh? Instead, I teach an hour an make a few dollars. In my case, all of those end up going back to new stuff for the students to play with.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If only it worked that way, eh? Instead, I teach an hour an make a few dollars. In my case, all of those end up going back to new stuff for the students to play with.


If you don't want your students to learn, you will teach them new material everyday and never review it.

MA teaching can also be like car service. You can have

- oil change,
- 20,000 miles maintenance,
- ...

You can charge different fee for different service.

A: I would like to polish and enhance my "single leg" again.
B: That will be $4.99 for polishing and $5.99 for enhancing.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> All irrelevant to the person teaching martial arts, putting in their best effort, and setting aside a lot of their personal and/or professional time for it. I make next to nothing teaching (probably less than nothing), but I have no problem with those who earn a living at it. I'm not willing to teach kids (almost necessary) nor that many evenings (absolutely necessary) so I'll never support myself on martial arts. Others have a higher level of commitment to the activity of teaching, and they should be paid commensurate with that.



Depends who you want to teach really. The way you set it up determines who will come. 

People should be paid depending upon how others value what they do. Making a business of MA is inviting lowered standards, low quality students, and so on. Depends what is most important to you, how you choose to do it.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've been living in the US for 46 years. I've been working with banks for 25. Want to tell me where I'm mistaken?



Not really on the martial talk forum 

I am sure if you put your very experienced mind to it you will think of a way


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> Depends who you want to teach really. The way you set it up determines who will come.
> 
> People should be paid depending upon how others value what they do. Making a business of MA is inviting lowered standards, low quality students, and so on. Depends what is most important to you, how you choose to do it.


Again, you're making assumptions not supported by research, nor by my experience in the US. Your assumptions, as you've said, are based upon your experience. That's experience elsewhere. Cultural differences actually matter.

As for your attitude that running a business is a bad thing, tell that to a doctor. Tell him he's cheapening what he does and inviting lower standards by earning a living.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> Not really on the martial talk forum
> 
> I am sure if you put your very experienced mind to it you will think of a way


You've being arrogant. You don't know an answer that can counter mine.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Since on any given month there's a chance someone will quit, you'd need a minimum of two paying students to cover costs (the second is in case the first quits). Still a fairly low target. And your insurance for a small program will probably be about $500-700/year, unless something's significantly different in NY (and it often is, especially with insurance). So three students covers all of your expenses, plus a bit to hold back for equipment, even allowing that one may quit. When you get to 7 or 8, the math gets easier, and you may actually get to take some home.



I found a place that offers the insurance for $350 per year. Someone on one of the other threads directed me to them.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 14, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> So how will you have enough money to invest in training equipment and other things for students if you are only covering costs?  If your rent is $100 and you are only covering costs then you can't afford to invest into the training beyond $100



I don't really need much in the way of equipment. Maybe 2-3 pairs of focus mitts. Since the place I am renting would not be exclusively mine, I would not install anything like a wooden dummy or anything like that. Also, not for nothing, but since there is an MMA class there, I would also be able to share some of the gear they already have there.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Again, you're making assumptions not supported by research, nor by my experience in the US. Your assumptions, as you've said, are based upon your experience. That's experience elsewhere. Cultural differences actually matter.
> 
> As for your attitude that running a business is a bad thing, tell that to a doctor. Tell him he's cheapening what he does and inviting lower standards by earning a living.



I don't think that running a business is a bad thing, just that running a martial arts teaching business is often a bad thing. MA very different to medicine because results are difficult to measure for most people in normal lives.

Again the charging method makes a big difference to the kind of person you attract in MA classes. Depends what you want really.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You've being arrogant. You don't know an answer that can counter mine.



This is not true, there are many ways for you to earn interest on money you can access quickly. Putting it in the bank is the last thing you should do at the present time


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I found a place that offers the insurance for $350 per year. Someone on one of the other threads directed me to them.


PM me with that info, please.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> This is not true, there are many ways for you to earn interest on money you can access quickly. Putting it in the bank is the last thing you should do at the present time


Care to share just one that's a good idea, and which exists in the US?


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> Why would you lose students by removing charges when they don't attend class and by removing pay in advance?



Because paying for a month is a commitment and most people will try to take as many classes as possible within that time period. They will show up even when they really don't feel like practicing because they know they have paid money for the month and want to get the most out of that investment.

Would you pay for a month and not show up?  .

When you pay per class then you have nothing to lose and no incentive to show up even on the days when you don't feel like it.  What you see as a benefit to a student who doesn't have to pay when they don't attend class. I see as a risk for that student of getting  lazy with their  training. 1 missed day turns into 3 missed days and then it turns into only seeing the student 3 days in one month to no days.  

Say the same student tries my martial art school and pays $50 a month for 20 classes.  That student will show up at my school but will not show up at your school because they have nothing invested in your school. No loss for not being at your school, no commitment. 

Paying once every month is also easier for the student than paying every time he or she shows up.  The student pays on one day of the month and the rest of the days he or she focused on training and not paying to train.

My school charges $50 a month for individuals.  Students pay during the first week of the month. This means that my students can spend more time focused on training than feeling like someone is taking money from them each time they show up.  Paying for class attendance would mean every time I see a student on training day they owe me $2.50 and every time that they see me they pay me $2.50.  It's hard to think of someone as friend  or a mentor if you are always giving that person $2.50 every time you should up to the school for training.

Nothing screams business as "pay me every time you see me."  It's not a good feeling for people who are interested in building student and instructor relationships.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It's a good solution for folks who are going to be out most of a month


This is a small group in comparison to the majority who attends the schools.  For people like that, an exception can be made instead of trying to make it the norm.

Something like that gives us, as instructors, an opportunity to show students that we are willing to work with them so that they can train at your school.  This is where the instructor becomes less like business and more like a caring person which in turn can strengthen the relationship.  

If you normally have 5 classes, then make 3 of the classes regular classes and 2 of the classes special class.  For example, my school does 5 classes a week.  3 regular classes, 1 sparring class, and 1 day for extra training if the student missed a lot of classes.   The extra training day also can be used like a personal training opportunity if 1 or 2 people show up.  This is a bonus for the student because learning is usually accelerated for the student.

Here's how it looks when you market it.
School A
Trains 5 days a week
Students have 5 regular classes

School B
Trains 5 days a week.
Students have 3 regular classes, 1 sparring class and 1 day extra for students who need additional training or for students who may have missed some of the regular classes during the week.

Both schools train the same amount of days but School B looks like it has more options and it appears to have a special day of training set aside for students who may need additional training.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Most folks attend 6-12 classes per month. The monthly fee is usually lower than that many classes of individual class payments. And people who haven't paid in advance are statistically less likely to show up for a class, which makes class planning less predictable.


 It not only makes class planning less predictable, but it makes paying the rent less predictable as well.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> PM me with that info, please.


 I would like to know this as well.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> Why would anyone have their money in place not earning interest


If you are only making enough money to cover costs, then what interest are you talking about?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is a small group in comparison to the majority who attends the schools.  For people like that, an exception can be made instead of trying to make it the norm.
> 
> Something like that gives us, as instructors, an opportunity to show students that we are willing to work with them so that they can train at your school.  This is where the instructor becomes less like business and more like a caring person which in turn can strengthen the relationship.
> 
> ...


I just have a more limited availability. I teach 2 classes a week. I added a "study group" session one other day. If I'm in town, it's a class. If not, the most senior student available keeps things safe and people just practice what they have. That limited availability is what originally drove me to have a per-class fee available (at the time, I was only able to offer one class a week). All of my students are currently over 40, and most have travel commitments either for work or for their kids' sports, so they have periods where they miss entire weeks. The per-class also solves them having to decide if it's worth paying for a month when they're not around for 2 weeks of it.

If I had more availability, the per-class wouldn't be an issue. My instructor never offered it, but I had 6 days a week of classes to choose from. If I was traveling every week that month (happened a lot back then), I could usually still manage to make 8 classes in the month.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 14, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I don't really need much in the way of equipment. Maybe 2-3 pairs of focus mitts. Since the place I am renting would not be exclusively mine, I would not install anything like a wooden dummy or anything like that. Also, not for nothing, but since there is an MMA class there, I would also be able to share some of the gear they already have there.


Your situation would be different were resources are available.  But when you have a place where it's just you then the 3 pairs of focus mits aren't going to be enough as you grow.  In reference to Hazards reasoning of only charging just enough to cover costs means that a person would not be able to earn more than the rent costs.  This also means that the more people attend the less hazard will have to charge, in order to avoid making a profit.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you are only making enough money to cover costs, then what interest are you talking about?


He's suggesting that the students could make some significant financial gain by paying weekly. There's no financial vehicle I can think of that would make that a viable option for the amount of time and effort it would take, to say nothing of the fact that managing that much payment interaction would mean more hours for the instructor, so he'd charge more, which would entirely obliterate an supposed gains.

And he continues to ignore that students CHOOSE monthly when both monthly and per-class are available.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> You situation would be different were resources are available.  But when you have a place where it's just you then the 3 pairs of focus mits aren't going to be enough as you grow.  In reference to Hazards reasoning of only charging just enough to cover costs means that a person would not be able to earn more than the rent costs.  This also means that the more people attend the less hazard will have to charge, in order to avoid making a profit.


Agreed. It also assumes the teaching becomes less valuable if the teacher is good enough to attract more students. Nonsense. Complete and utter nonsense.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 14, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> You situation would be different were resources are available.  But when you have a place where it's just you then the 3 pairs of focus mits aren't going to be enough as you grow.  In reference to Hazards reasoning of only charging just enough to cover costs means that a person would not be able to earn more than the rent costs.  This also means that the more people attend the less hazard will have to charge, in order to avoid making a profit.



I thought you were referring to me because I have certain people blocked. It leads to confusion, but also to being annoyed a lot less.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> managing that much payment interaction would mean more hours for the instructor, so he'd charge more, which would entirely obliterate an supposed gains



It doesn't require a lot of management to charge peope when they show up 



gpseymour said:


> students CHOOSE monthly when both monthly and per-class are available.



Depends on the type of student. In my experience pay monthly is offputting to the kind of student I want.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I don't really need much in the way of equipment. Maybe 2-3 pairs of focus mitts. Since the place I am renting would not be exclusively mine, I would not install anything like a wooden dummy or anything like that. Also, not for nothing, but since there is an MMA class there, I would also be able to share some of the gear they already have there.


As you have more options, start thinking long-term. When you can take on a space, you'll suddenly have a lot of new options for equipment. Saving up from early in the program will make that an easy step. And there are definitely bits and pieces of equipment you may decide to pick up along the way to make improvements in the program. In my case, I picked up some really inexpensive sparring gear so brand new students don't have to buy any. Eventually, they'll need their own, but I can spend a few bucks and take care of all the new folks until that time. I carry a bag of gear in my car, and I fish out what I think I'll need before each class. Occasionally, I'll drag the whole bag in, if I'm not sure what approach I want to take that day.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> He's suggesting that the students could make some significant financial gain by paying weekly. There's no financial vehicle I can think of that would make that a viable option for the amount of time and effort it would take, to say nothing of the fact that managing that much payment interaction would mean more hours for the instructor, so he'd charge more, which would entirely obliterate an supposed gains.
> 
> And he continues to ignore that students CHOOSE monthly when both monthly and per-class are available.



Weekly payments would be a nightmare.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I just have a more limited availability. I teach 2 classes a week. I added a "study group" session one other day. If I'm in town, it's a class. If not, the most senior student available keeps things safe and people just practice what they have. That limited availability is what originally drove me to have a per-class fee available (at the time, I was only able to offer one class a week). All of my students are currently over 40, and most have travel commitments either for work or for their kids' sports, so they have periods where they miss entire weeks. The per-class also solves them having to decide if it's worth paying for a month when they're not around for 2 weeks of it.
> 
> If I had more availability, the per-class wouldn't be an issue. My instructor never offered it, but I had 6 days a week of classes to choose from. If I was traveling every week that month (happened a lot back then), I could usually still manage to make 8 classes in the month.


That's definitely a different situation because of your availability.  A second instructor would help to provide the classes for the days that you aren't there. This will allow you to attract more students who can attend regularly and don't travel.  This way you can cover your costs with the regular students and those who can only make it a few times a month can have a separate plan.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> It doesn't require a lot of management to charge peope when they show up


Tracking 10 people's payments, doing the accounting of perhaps 80 payments a month (rather than 10) and the few minutes before each class to actually handle the payments. That time adds up. And it either takes time from teaching (bad for students) or takes time from something else in life (so it should be compensated).



> Depends on the type of student. In my experience pay monthly is offputting to the kind of student I want.


Again, in the culture you're in. Don't assume you know what happens elsewhere.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's definitely a different situation because of your availability.  A second instructor would help to provide the classes for the days that you aren't there. This will allow you to attract more students who can attend regularly and don't travel.  This way you can cover your costs with the regular students and those who can only make it a few times a month can have a separate plan.


Unfortunately, there's no second instructor available. Even if I wanted a mainline NGA instructor, the closest are in one of the other cities in the area (more than an hour away) and either don't train NGA anymore, or already teach somewhere. If I had a second instructor, I'd actually probably get them to teach kids classes, then we could afford to consider our own space.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> He's suggesting that the students could make some significant financial gain by paying weekly


  But people take martial arts for martial arts and not a financial gain.  If anything they don't mind paying for quality training.  If the school is really good then the student will be getting a lot more than training out of being a part of the school.  Just like you and I were talking about the value of the social interaction. Other things like staying fit, learning self-defense, getting stronger, gaining confidence, being able to compete in tournaments, making friends, having cookouts, school trips.  If the school is full of adults then things like traveling as a group to tourist places, are things that would be worth the small price of paying membership fees.  People also know that membership fees help support the school, without the fees, there is no school.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Tracking 10 people's payments, doing the accounting of perhaps 80 payments a month (rather than 10) and the few minutes before each class to actually handle the payments. That time adds up. And it either takes time from teaching (bad for students) or takes time from something else in life (so it should be compensated).



No need to track anything . Accounting? 

Just take cash and put what remains after hiring the room in your pocket. If not enough to cover hiring the room then stop.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 14, 2017)

The first Wing Chun school I went to was up to $125 per month. Those who wanted to learn Wing Chun didn't mind paying it.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Unfortunately, there's no second instructor available.


There's no second instructor yet.  One of your student may reach the role of instructor one day.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 14, 2017)

Just the thought of all the receipt books you would tear through, or all the time you would spend at your computer entering things into Quickbooks...yikes.


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## wckf92 (Jan 15, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> It doesn't require a lot of management to charge peope when they show up



Agreed. This is how I instruct. You show up, you pay, you learn. Simple.
I'm like a vending machine! Put money in...get something out! haha


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 15, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Agreed. This is how I instruct. You show up, you pay, you learn. Simple.
> I'm like a vending machine! Put money in...get something out! haha


You still have to track it.  From a business and marketing side of things, knowing who shows up how often and and when becomes more important because now your monthly revenue is based on how much you make daily.  Each month your business revenue will rise or fall based on how many days someone shows up.


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## wckf92 (Jan 15, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> You still have to track it.



I disagree. Says who? You may be correct if you teach for a living...I don't...



JowGaWolf said:


> From a business and marketing side of things, knowing who shows up how often and and when becomes more important because now your monthly revenue is based on how much you make daily.  Each month your business revenue will rise or fall based on how many days someone shows up.



I know who shows up and how often.... when they contact me for a lesson and walk in! haha.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> But people take martial arts for martial arts and not a financial gain.  If anything they don't mind paying for quality training.  If the school is really good then the student will be getting a lot more than training out of being a part of the school.  Just like you and I were talking about the value of the social interaction. Other things like staying fit, learning self-defense, getting stronger, gaining confidence, being able to compete in tournaments, making friends, having cookouts, school trips.  If the school is full of adults then things like traveling as a group to tourist places, are things that would be worth the small price of paying membership fees.  People also know that membership fees help support the school, without the fees, there is no school.


True enough. All that aside, what he's suggesting would have a significant burden on the instructor (though he doesn't seem to recognize it) to manage the extra paperwork (oh, and if it's not run as a business, you don't get to write off the expenses, so every penny you take in is taxable income). And the amount of financial gain someone could potentially make would be so negligible as to be more than offset by the extra time it would take to access the money and make those weekly or per-class payments.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> I disagree. Says who? You may be correct if you teach for a living...I don't...
> 
> 
> 
> I know who shows up and how often.... when they contact me for a lesson and walk in! haha.


If you're okay with paying taxes on every penny that comes in (no expense offset, if you don't run it as a business), then you could just not track it. Of course, if you aren't tracking it, it's possible that revenue will fall below expenses (you're still stuck paying taxes on all that revenue). Unless you're willing to take those losses, that can make it less likely the program continues. Anytime you have expenses to deal with, and revenue to deal with, you are best served by treating it at least a little like a business, even if you do it for the love of teaching (which is why I do it).


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 15, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Agreed. This is how I instruct. You show up, you pay, you learn. Simple.
> I'm like a vending machine! Put money in...get something out! haha



Glad someone does the same, seems a lot of very serous martial arts business owners here on the forum. I am not suggesting doing it this way for profit


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> True enough. All that aside, what he's suggesting would have a significant burden on the instructor (though he doesn't seem to recognize it) to manage the extra paperwork (oh, and if it's not run as a business, you don't get to write off the expenses, so every penny you take in is taxable income). And the amount of financial gain someone could potentially make would be so negligible as to be more than offset by the extra time it would take to access the money and make those weekly or per-class payments.



No burden on the instructor that I can think of apart from turning up and delivering the lesson


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> No need to track anything . Accounting?
> 
> Just take cash and put what remains after hiring the room in your pocket. If not enough to cover hiring the room then stop.


I don't know the tax laws where you are, but you have to track it in the US. Any money coming in that's not offset by business expenses is taxable. If you don't run it as a business, there are no "business expenses" allowed (including the cost of the space), so you pay taxes on it all. And that "then stop" means the students aren't getting taught. How's that helping them out? Running it like a business helps keep the program open.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> No burden on the instructor that I can think of apart from turning up and delivering the lesson


Yes. Remember, you are not in the US. Taxes are payable on that income here. That means paperwork.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know the tax laws where you are, but you have to track it in the US. Any money coming in that's not offset by business expenses is taxable. If you don't run it as a business, there are no "business expenses" allowed (including the cost of the space), so you pay taxes on it all. And that "then stop" means the students aren't getting taught. How's that helping them out? Running it like a business helps keep the program open.



When we talk about teaching some hobby like martial arts, I would ask "what is tax"?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> I know who shows up and how often.... when they contact me for a lesson and walk in! haha.


If you're talking about private lessons, that's a different matter. I've always charged per-lesson on those, because those aren't an ongoing thing I offer on a regular basis. Those have to be scheduled separately.


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## wckf92 (Jan 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If you're talking about private lessons, that's a different matter. I've always charged per-lesson on those, because those aren't an ongoing thing I offer on a regular basis. Those have to be scheduled separately.



Yes, those too.
Group classes, privates, etc ...all are "on call" and paid 'per lesson' and per person. For me and my hectic life...it's just easier that way. I track nothing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> When we talk about teaching some hobby like martial arts, I would ask "what is tax"?


In the US, it being a hobby doesn't exempt you from paying tax on the income.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Yes, those too.
> Group classes, privates, etc ...all are "on call" and paid 'per lesson' and per person. For me and my hectic life...it's just easier that way. I track nothing.


How can group classes be "on call"? I don't understand that. If it's a regularly scheduled class, that doesn't seem to be "on call". Or are we using the term differently.

As for tracking nothing, if you're in the US, you have to track that income. It's taxable.


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## wckf92 (Jan 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> How can group classes be "on call"? I don't understand that. If it's a regularly scheduled class, that doesn't seem to be "on call". Or are we using the term differently.
> 
> As for tracking nothing, if you're in the US, you have to track that income. It's taxable.



Yeah, to be more clear...it's not a regularly scheduled class at all...in fact it's quite sporadic. When a small group gets together...and schedules align...I hold class. And that holds true for privates etc. I realize it may not be optimal, but it is what it is for my life.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Yeah, to be more clear...it's not a regularly scheduled class at all...in fact it's quite sporadic. When a small group gets together...and schedules align...I hold class. And that holds true for privates etc. I realize it may not be optimal, but it is what it is for my life.


Ah. Of course, if it's not regularly scheduled, there's really no way to make monthly payments make sense. And I understand the "not optimal, but what I can do" approach. My distractions are different from yours, and I have to make a different set of compromises. We do what we can, do the best we can for our students.


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## wckf92 (Jan 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> As for tracking nothing, if you're in the US, you have to track that income. It's taxable.



Not true. Yes, you are correct if making a certain amount...which I do not.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Not true. Yes, you are correct if making a certain amount...which I do not.


If your total income meets that requirement, all your income (including anything you make from a hobby) is reportable. If your total income falls below that requirement, you are correct.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> True enough. All that aside, what he's suggesting would have a significant burden on the instructor (though he doesn't seem to recognize it) to manage the extra paperwork (oh, and if it's not run as a business, you don't get to write off the expenses, so every penny you take in is taxable income). And the amount of financial gain someone could potentially make would be so negligible as to be more than offset by the extra time it would take to access the money and make those weekly or per-class payments.


It seems to me that what they are talking about is Personal Training and not opening a school.  If someone tries to run any education type business as they are suggestion then they would quickly run into difficulties.  One only has to look at what people currently do in terms of martial arts schools to determine viability of what they suggest.  It is most likely that they do not have the facilities that will allow them to get the most out of training unless they are operating out of their homes.

*Edit:*  Also keep in mind that our comments may be based off more information about the direction of the Wing Chun class and what the OP wants to accomplish.  From what the OP has stated in the past, he is talking about something that is a regular scheduled based opportunity and not a sporadic "call me when you are ready" opportunity.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 15, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Yes, you are correct if making a certain amount...which I do not.


This statement tells me that you are tracking your income.  You would not know if you were making the "certain amount" or not, if you weren't tracking it in some manner.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> It seems to me that what they are talking about is Personal Training and not opening a school.  If someone tries to run any education type business as they are suggestion then they would quickly run into difficulties.  One only has to look at what people currently do in terms of martial arts schools to determine viability of what they suggest.  It is most likely that they do not have the facilities that will allow them to get the most out of training unless they are operating out of their homes.
> 
> *Edit:*  Also keep in mind that our comments may be based off more information about the direction of the Wing Chun class and what the OP wants to accomplish.  From what the OP has stated in the past, he is talking about something that is a regular scheduled based opportunity and not a sporadic "call me when you are ready" opportunity.


Yes, what @wckf92  is talking about is a different thing. In his situation, pay-per-class is the best approach. And in the context of the culture @Hazardi172 is in, it may be a viable option there, as well. In the US, based on the research I've looked at and the experience of the instructors I've talked to and the choices my students make, per-class payment isn't a strong option for recurring classes.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> This statement tells me that you are tracking your income.  You would not know if you were making the "certain amount" or not, if you weren't tracking it in some manner.


If he's talking about the minimum amount at which you're required to file a tax return (roughly $10,000 annually), it may not require tracking. If he's only bringing in a couple hundred a month, he'll get nowhere near the minimum requirement and only needs a vague idea rather than a firm number. Mind you, that only applies if he's not making more than that ~$10,000 in total (_including _the martial arts program, not just _from_ the martial arts program).


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## Juany118 (Jan 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If you're okay with paying taxes on every penny that comes in (no expense offset, if you don't run it as a business), then you could just not track it. Of course, if you aren't tracking it, it's possible that revenue will fall below expenses (you're still stuck paying taxes on all that revenue). Unless you're willing to take those losses, that can make it less likely the program continues. Anytime you have expenses to deal with, and revenue to deal with, you are best served by treating it at least a little like a business, even if you do it for the love of teaching (which is why I do it).




You can also do what my Sifu did.  He has the school structured as a non-profit.  We do the "typical" Martial Arts stuff but also  do charity stuff for Veterans groups, the Kapitbayan Filipino American Association among others.  Still need to do paperwork though.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> You can also do what my Sifu did.  He has the school structured as a non-profit.  We do the "typical" Martial Arts stuff but also  do charity stuff for Veterans groups, the Kapitbayan Filipino American Association among others.  Still need to do paperwork though.


Yes. Perhaps more paperwork (and, IIRC, you need a Board), but some advantages from an expense/write-off perspective. At some point, I might go that route, myself.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> In the US, it being a hobby doesn't exempt you from paying tax on the income.



Neither in Europe, but it's not visible so..


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> Neither in Europe, but it's not visible so..


So, you're advocating bypassing the law?


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> So, you're advocating bypassing the law?



I don't think necessary or desirable to set up as a visible business when all I want to do is teach some VT to friends or train with likeminded people. I have other visible ways in which to earn a relevant income. It seems silly to make such tiny sums visible to the government, involving more work to me that the tax paid would be worth. Just a complete waste of my time 

I don't feel as if tax is something I should be working hard to pay.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Not unless they are earning interest on it. And if they pay less by paying early, there's zero advantage if they're going to spend the money eventually.



In addition to having the option of making your money work for you until you decide to part with it (therefore keeping it longer being better), there is also the opportunity cost of paying monthly. I prefer to keep my money until I have received the goods or services I want so that I do not close other potential options. Basic common sense I would say


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## Transk53 (Jan 15, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> In addition to having the option of making your money work for you until you decide to part with it (therefore keeping it longer being better), there is also the opportunity cost of paying monthly. I prefer to keep my money until I have received the goods or services I want so that I do not close other potential options. Basic common sense I would say



Yeah agree. Common sense to play the middle as it were, especially with the Euro.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 15, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> I don't think necessary or desirable to set up as a visible business when all I want to do is teach some VT to friends or train with likeminded people.


In the U.S. and for me, running the school like a business is a liability issue.  If a student get hurt because they are learning martial arts from me, then it's possible for the student to sue me, and depending on the amount I can lose my personal possessions as a result of being sued.. If I treat the school as a business (an LLC ) then I can avoid the risk that come with unlimited liability.  If a person is just teaching to friends then there is some flexibility as to the risks that you'll have.  At that point it's just people training an activity together more so than teaching in a school setting.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> I don't think necessary or desirable to set up as a visible business when all I want to do is teach some VT to friends or train with likeminded people. I have other visible ways in which to earn a relevant income. It seems silly to make such tiny sums visible to the government, involving more work to me that the tax paid would be worth. Just a complete waste of my time
> 
> I don't feel as if tax is something I should be working hard to pay.


So you are, in fact advocating not paying taxes as the law requires.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> In addition to having the option of making your money work for you until you decide to part with it (therefore keeping it longer being better), there is also the opportunity cost of paying monthly. I prefer to keep my money until I have received the goods or services I want so that I do not close other potential options. Basic common sense I would say


Not opportunity cost if you are going to pay eventually. If not, then that supports the research I mentioned that people,who pay monthly attend more regularly. As for making your money work, that makes sense only if enough money is involves, at a high enough rate of return, to be worth the time spent earning it. The interest income on $10 held for 3 weeks is less than a penny unless you are earning a very high rate (not available in short-term lossless vehicles).


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

Transk53 said:


> Yeah agree. Common sense to play the middle as it were, especially with the Euro.


Only if the amounts make it worth it. As for the opportunity cost, that only applies if you might not attend class. His assertion was that people paying on a per-class basis attend more regularly, not less.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> In the U.S. and for me, running the school like a business is a liability issue.  If a student get hurt because they are learning martial arts from me, then it's possible for the student to sue me, and depending on the amount I can lose my personal possessions as a result of being sued.. If I treat the school as a business (an LLC ) then I can avoid the risk that come with unlimited liability.  If a person is just teaching to friends then there is some flexibility as to the risks that you'll have.  At that point it's just people training an activity together more so than teaching in a school setting.


It also allows you to deduct expenses, rendering the program less expensive than running it as a hobby.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If he's talking about the minimum amount at which you're required to file a tax return (roughly $10,000 annually), it may not require tracking. If he's only bringing in a couple hundred a month, he'll get nowhere near the minimum requirement and only needs a vague idea rather than a firm number. Mind you, that only applies if he's not making more than that ~$10,000 in total (_including _the martial arts program, not just _from_ the martial arts program).



I thought the minimum you had to earn above was the standard deduction, which if you are single like me is around $7500? So if I earned $7499, I would not have to claim it because the standard deduction wipes that out.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I thought the minimum you had to earn above was the standard deduction, which if you are single like me is around $7500? So if I earned $7499, I would not have to claim it because the standard deduction wipes that out.


I think the minimum for filing is actually a different number. I forget why, but I recall it being around $10K. Once you earn that much in total (all forms of income), however, all income has to be declared. So, if you only earn $5,000 for the year, you don't file (and wouldn't owe taxes on your MA earnings). However, if you have a job that pays $35,000, and earn $5,000 via MA, your MA earnings are stacked onto your other earnings (minus any allowable expenses).


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## JR 137 (Jan 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It's a good solution for folks who are going to be out most of a month (something that happens regularly with my students), but nobody seems to be interested in it otherwise. I could see someone considering it when they start, but the cost for a month is the same as the cost of 5 classes, so they lose money if they come in twice a week for 3 weeks. I've considered letting folks buy a 10-class or 20-class package, to get a price similar to the monthly cost. Right now it would be too difficult to keep track of. If I ever get that database program to a beta stage, that kind of tracking would be part of what I'd have available.



Sorry... there's far too many posts between yours and the last one, but anyway...

It's very easy to keep track of.  Sell them a "punch card" (don't know what else to call it).  If each class is $10, sell a 5 class card for $50 and a 10 class card for $100.  Every time they come to class, punch a hole in the card.  When no more classes remain, they buy a new card.

I used those dollar amounts and class numbers because they were easy.  Charge whatever you want.  Give a discount on larger dollar amounts like 12 classes for $100 if you'd like.  

My former sensei's wife ran cardio kickboxing in the dojo at non-karate times.  That system worked great for them.  He didn't do that for karate, but I can't see it not working.  And it's pretty hard to scam - have your own card, and hand sign it when sold.  Unless you can't recognize your own signature, there's no way I know of to get away with phony cards (not that they had any issues).


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## wingchun100 (Jan 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think the minimum for filing is actually a different number. I forget why, but I recall it being around $10K. Once you earn that much in total (all forms of income), however, all income has to be declared. So, if you only earn $5,000 for the year, you don't file (and wouldn't owe taxes on your MA earnings). However, if you have a job that pays $35,000, and earn $5,000 via MA, your MA earnings are stacked onto your other earnings (minus any allowable expenses).



Aha! You see, someone tried pulling a fast one on me many moons ago. Unfortunately, by now they have long since gotten away with their deceit.

Brief rundown: I have twin daughters. When they were still young enough to need daycare, their mother and I split up. Their mother got HER mom to handle the babysitting. Well, here's the thing: Grandma said she wanted $250 per week from us. That mean $125 for my half. (Naturally, we all know $125 was ALL she was getting because she was not taking a dime from my ex, but that's a tale for another thread.)

So $125 per week times 52 weeks in the year: $6500. Grandma was trying to be slick, earning just enough under that standard deduction without having to declare it.

However, as you just said, she SHOULD have claimed it  because she was also working a state job at the time and, at the top of her pay grade, was earning about $35,000 per year.

I wish I had known this stuff back then. I thought it was based on the income earned from each job separately, not combined!


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Sorry... there's far too many posts between yours and the last one, but anyway...
> 
> It's very easy to keep track of.  Sell them a "punch card" (don't know what else to call it).  If each class is $10, sell a 5 class card for $50 and a 10 class card for $100.  Every time they come to class, punch a hole in the card.  When no more classes remain, they buy a new card.
> 
> ...


That's not a bad idea. I need to think how that works with accrual-basis accounting (I've been advised to switch, and will have to if I start keeping an inventory of uniforms to sell). With cash-basis, it's easy. With accrual-basis, those cards are liabilities until they're used up, so each "punch" should technically be accounted for to offset the liability. I've been working on a database application that would handle attendance and payment tracking, and that would solve the problem, but it's probably going to take me months to get it to some finished state. In the meantime, I haven't opted to switch to accrual-basis yet, so maybe the punch cards are a solution for now.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Aha! You see, someone tried pulling a fast one on me many moons ago. Unfortunately, by now they have long since gotten away with their deceit.
> 
> Brief rundown: I have twin daughters. When they were still young enough to need daycare, their mother and I split up. Their mother got HER mom to handle the babysitting. Well, here's the thing: Grandma said she wanted $250 per week from us. That mean $125 for my half. (Naturally, we all know $125 was ALL she was getting because she was not taking a dime from my ex, but that's a tale for another thread.)
> 
> ...


In today's tax regulations, you'd have had to file a 1099 on her, anyway (anything over $600, usually), which would have put it in the IRS system.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> In today's tax regulations, you'd have had to file a 1099 on her, anyway (anything over $600, usually), which would have put it in the IRS system.



Well, unfortunately that was all in 2005. I don't think they audit back that far.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Well, unfortunately that was all in 2005. I don't think they audit back that far.


They are generally limited to about 6 years, so no help there.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> They are generally limited to about 6 years, so no help there.



Yes. Well, live and learn.


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## JR 137 (Jan 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That's not a bad idea. I need to think how that works with accrual-basis accounting (I've been advised to switch, and will have to if I start keeping an inventory of uniforms to sell). With cash-basis, it's easy. With accrual-basis, those cards are liabilities until they're used up, so each "punch" should technically be accounted for to offset the liability. I've been working on a database application that would handle attendance and payment tracking, and that would solve the problem, but it's probably going to take me months to get it to some finished state. In the meantime, I haven't opted to switch to accrual-basis yet, so maybe the punch cards are a solution for now.



I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about (I'm a science teacher, not a business guy).

Not sure about the liability;  they have a card with a bunch of squares on it.  After every square has a hole punched into it, they buy a new card.  Sell a card, document the money taken it as you currently do.  I wouldn't sell more than a dozen or so classes at a time; allowing them to pay for 50 classes at once seems like nothing but problems. 

It's their responsibility not to lose the card.

Keep track of attendance the same way you currently do.

Or perhaps none of this is what you were referring to.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 15, 2017)

I need to go back through this thread with a notebook and write down some of the ideas because there were quite a few good suggestions, especially when I mentioned the idea of starting out for free and then moving to paid classes, but I have lost track of them!


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about (I'm a science teacher, not a business guy).
> 
> Not sure about the liability;  they have a card with a bunch of squares on it.  After every square has a hole punched into it, they buy a new card.  Sell a card, document the money taken it as you currently do.  I wouldn't sell more than a dozen or so classes at a time; allowing them to pay for 50 classes at once seems like nothing but problems.
> 
> ...


It's accounting gobbledygook. Most folks won't be aware of it, even if they have to deal with it. Their accountant or bookkeeper will simply tell them some things to do, and the issue will be covered. I am a management consultant, so I get into a lot of business fine points. I've used some of that to help small business owners get their businesses going the right way, so I'm reasonably well versed in some minutia like that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I need to go back through this thread with a notebook and write down some of the ideas because there were quite a few good suggestions, especially when I mentioned the idea of starting out for free and then moving to paid classes, but I have lost track of them!


Probably because I've been involved in three different discussions here that were all off-topic for the original post, Steve.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Probably because I've been involved in three different discussions here that were all off-topic for the original post, Steve.



Around here, it's par for the course. However, there were some great ideas in here.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 16, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> It's their responsibility not to lose the card.


what happens if they lose the card?


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> So you are, in fact advocating not paying taxes as the law requires.



I'm advocating not making extra work for myself over something trivial. If friends wish to give me gifts of cash after we spend a bit of time learning VT then great . Taxing it would only make it disappear.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Not opportunity cost if you are going to pay eventually. If not, then that supports the research I mentioned that people,who pay monthly attend more regularly. As for making your money work, that makes sense only if enough money is involves, at a high enough rate of return, to be worth the time spent earning it. The interest income on $10 held for 3 weeks is less than a penny unless you are earning a very high rate (not available in short-term lossless vehicles).



Opportunity cost is only accrued when money or time is spent. Before that point the option to do otherwise is still available, and so no opportunity cost 

In general it is more sensible to keep options open rather than closing them, and to use money to make other money for as long as possible, rather than give it to someone else in exchange for goods and services that you don't need right now!

Some people recognise this while others don't. The people I tend to like training with are mostly in the first group, as I am


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 16, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> what happens if they lose the card?


If you're not tracking it, that would be on them. If you're tracking attendance against the card, you could issue them a new card with the remainder on it. Mind you, you'd have to track the card numbers then (giving each card a unique number) to avoid someone saying they lost it, then finding it a few months later and using it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 16, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> I'm advocating not making extra work for myself over something trivial. If friends wish to give me gifts of cash after we spend a bit of time learning VT then great . Taxing it would only make it disappear.


You're rationalizing. You're charging them for training. It's not a gift, unless you don't expect them to pay. You want to keep all the money, rather than paying the taxes that are due on it. That's called "tax evasion".


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 16, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> Opportunity cost is only accrued when money or time is spent. Before that point the option to do otherwise is still available, and so no opportunity cost
> 
> In general it is more sensible to keep options open rather than closing them, and to use money to make other money for as long as possible, rather than give it to someone else in exchange for goods and services that you don't need right now!
> 
> Some people recognise this while others don't. The people I tend to like training with are mostly in the first group, as I am


You're misusing the term "opportunity cost". You can only apply that term when the alternative use is an option. If you're planning to actually go to that next class, then that money is allocated and is not available for alternative spending.

And you keep ignoring the fact that monthly payment is actually cheaper (significantly) for the student. They are losing money by paying per-class. You keep making the same derogatory comment over and over, without being able to provide a single explanation of how they would earn more money by holding a few dollars for a few weeks, nor are you able to address the loss by paying more frequently. You clearly don't actually understand the time-value of money, so I'm done with this discussion. 

When you teach, you do what seems best for you (except for that part about evading taxes - that's just wrong). I'll do what's best for my students, and stick to following the laws.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If you're not tracking it, that would be on them. If you're tracking attendance against the card, you could issue them a new card with the remainder on it. Mind you, you'd have to track the card numbers then (giving each card a unique number) to avoid someone saying they lost it, then finding it a few months later and using it.


Could be a customer service nightmare if they lose the card and the person is not tracking it which is why I asked.  I was curious to know what he did when someone lost the card.  Did he just say tough luck or did he try to work with the student who lost the card to come up with a solution that would allow the student to train.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'll do what's best for my students, and stick to following the laws.


Yep "Tax Man" always wins when they catch the scent of someone skipping out on taxes.  lol.. Which is actually an Opportunity Cost within itself lol.


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You're misusing the term "opportunity cost". You can only apply that term when the alternative use is an option. If you're planning to actually go to that next class, then that money is allocated and is not available for alternative spending.



Actually my friend, as long as the alternative use is possible, there is no opportunity cost. The alternative is always an option until the money or time is spent. There are always potential circumstances where alternative use will be preferable. This is the essence of the understanding of opportunity cost. Don't worry, it isn't a trivial concept and many people get confused thinking about it 



gpseymour said:


> And you keep ignoring the fact that monthly payment is actually cheaper (significantly) for the student. They are losing money by paying per-class.



Training as and when with me is significantly cheaper than monthly payment with other people because I have no overheads, no accounts, no nothing but training with friends and receiving a gift as thanks which I pocket and then spend! . It is pocket money quantities and I am not motivated to be the tax collector for the government against myself when the amount involved is so trivial. 



gpseymour said:


> You keep making the same derogatory comment over and over, without being able to provide a single explanation of how they would earn more money by holding a few dollars for a few weeks, nor are you able to address the loss by paying more frequently. You clearly don't actually understand the time-value of money, so I'm done with this discussion.



I don't think I have been derogatory? I also don't think that time value of money means in this example what you think it does 

There are so many ways to use money to make money, and in fact this is what I do in my everyday life. All it takes is a little imagination.



gpseymour said:


> When you teach, you do what seems best for you (except for that part about evading taxes - that's just wrong). I'll do what's best for my students, and stick to following the laws.



Clearly it would be better for some of your students to pay whenever they wanted to turn up, and not have to make the choice of either paying you when they don't turn up, or turn up when they don't want to. For example those who often have other things to do, don't value what you are teaching all that much, sometimes have a life on nighs when you are running your class, that kind of thing . 

My own experience of pay monthly is that it tends to be more expensive, because it is done by people who approach MA as a business. If those people give an option to pay by class then they overcharge, both in order to funnel people into their money stream of pay monthly, and also because they are not approaching it as fun and a hobby, but rather a business, and a business exits to maximise returns to the owner. I personally don't like being taught MA by someone doing it as a business because MA is so full of awful ideas and bad teaching. I prefer to train with people doing it for the love, who have other ways to make money, and who don't have to be doing it .


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## Hazardi172 (Jan 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You're rationalizing. You're charging them for training. It's not a gift, unless you don't expect them to pay. You want to keep all the money, rather than paying the taxes that are due on it. That's called "tax evasion".



When tax will by its imposition end the economic activity that it seeks to exploit, then that tax is not worth putting your head above the parapet in order to acknowledge. It seems pretty stupid to volunteer to end the value you bring to others just because you have a burning desire to comply with someone else's rules


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## wingchun100 (Jan 19, 2017)

Some good news: I met a young woman who teaches a sewing class that is also part of Hudson Valley's Community Ed Series.

Turns out she teaches the same course at Schenectady County Community College, and also at Albany High School. I was completely unaware that any other schools offered this, and believe me: I had looked into teaching at colleges.

So it is time to brush up my marketing skills even further and offer this course elsewhere!


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## wingchun100 (Jan 19, 2017)

Also, I think this course might benefit from me making a video to share not only with people that I am approaching to sign up, but one I could also send to the people who determine if they will let me offer the course through them. Got to make something that looks "cool," although I am not exactly an expert or even a novice on figuring out what might look "cool" to other people.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 19, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Also, I think this course might benefit from me making a video to share not only with people that I am approaching to sign up, but one I could also send to the people who determine if they will let me offer the course through them. Got to make something that looks "cool," although I am not exactly an expert or even a novice on figuring out what might look "cool" to other people.


What you're talking about is called a "flash reel" among professional speakers. For your purposes, you'll want to show some cool sparring, some instructional-looking stuff (where you are explaining, with or without sound), some forms that look cool to those who have no idea what's going on, etc.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 19, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> What you're talking about is called a "flash reel" among professional speakers. For your purposes, you'll want to show some cool sparring, some instructional-looking stuff (where you are explaining, with or without sound), some forms that look cool to those who have no idea what's going on, etc.


 
So it wouldn't matter if the forms I show are the ones they would actually see in the class? The reason I say that is because the first form (Sil Lum Tao) is, to be honest, not all that visually impressive or dynamic. In MY mind, the most visually impressive is either Biu Jee or the Mook Jong (dummy) forms. However, those are definitely not ones that would be shown in a 2-hour introduction class.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 19, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> So it wouldn't matter if the forms I show are the ones they would actually see in the class? The reason I say that is because the first form (Sil Lum Tao) is, to be honest, not all that visually impressive or dynamic. In MY mind, the most visually impressive is either Biu Jee or the Mook Jong (dummy) forms. However, those are definitely not ones that would be shown in a 2-hour introduction class.


No, I wouldn't worry about trying to show them what will be in the class. Show them why they want to be in a class about WC.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 19, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Also, I think this course might benefit from me making a video to share not only with people that I am approaching to sign up, but one I could also send to the people who determine if they will let me offer the course through them. Got to make something that looks "cool," although I am not exactly an expert or even a novice on figuring out what might look "cool" to other people.


Think about what type of students you want and set your marketing efforts to attract those students.  If your audience likes flashy stuff then you can market using flashy demos,  If your audience likes practical things then you can market using practical demos.   If you aren't sure then you can throw both into the video.

I wouldn't worry about trying to figure out what looks cool. That's what video editing is for.  Strip the sound add some music and call it a day. 
Nothing in this video is as cool as exciting as video makes it appear.  If you saw the original videos it would just be regular sparring, nothing special.





Just do what you do, take some video of you training, drilling, and sparring.  add some music to create the mood that you want and you'll be fine.  This way you don't have to do an over the top and unrealistic demo.  You can take clips from Sil Lum Tao and those pieces during the slow parts of a music score and then use a different form or drill for the more upbeat parts of the music.  

*IMPORTANT:*  when you create your marketing videos to beginners, make sure you have things in there that looks like something a beginner can do and then towards the end of the video clip have just a few advanced things.   For example:  The video should tell a hidden story.   "Here's what you'll train, Here's what you can become."   Make sure you take pictures and get permission to use photos from your intro class.  Have someone take pictures while you teach and be sure they capture the smiles and the amazement that the students will have during the 2 hours.  You'll need those pictures and video to help promote your next intro class and full class.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 20, 2017)

I will need to find someone good at video editing too. As much as I try to study all that software, none of it ever makes sense to me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 20, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I will need to find someone good at video editing too. As much as I try to study all that software, none of it ever makes sense to me.


I'll PM you about that.


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## wckf92 (Jan 20, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I will need to find someone good at video editing too. As much as I try to study all that software, none of it ever makes sense to me.



Ditto. Yeah dude...this barrier is what hampers me as well.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 20, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Ditto. Yeah dude...this barrier is what hampers me as well.


I'll send you the same PM.


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## JR 137 (Jan 21, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> So it wouldn't matter if the forms I show are the ones they would actually see in the class? The reason I say that is because the first form (Sil Lum Tao) is, to be honest, not all that visually impressive or dynamic. In MY mind, the most visually impressive is either Biu Jee or the Mook Jong (dummy) forms. However, those are definitely not ones that would be shown in a 2-hour introduction class.



You could demonstrate an advanced form toward the end of the class as an example of what they'd expect during advanced training.  Not sure dragging in a wooden dummy is worth it though.

As far as making a video look cool, slo mo always makes things look cool.  Ever watch Dave Chappelle's show?


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## JR 137 (Jan 21, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> So it wouldn't matter if the forms I show are the ones they would actually see in the class? The reason I say that is because the first form (Sil Lum Tao) is, to be honest, not all that visually impressive or dynamic. In MY mind, the most visually impressive is either Biu Jee or the Mook Jong (dummy) forms. However, those are definitely not ones that would be shown in a 2-hour introduction class.



You could demonstrate an advanced form toward the end of the class as an example of what they'd expect during advanced training.  Not sure dragging in a wooden dummy is worth it though.

As far as making a video look cool, slo mo always makes things look cool.  Ever watch Dave Chappelle's show?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 21, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> In MY mind, the most visually impressive is either Biu Jee or the Mook Jong (dummy) forms. However, those are definitely not ones that would be shown in a 2-hour introduction class.


If I'll teach a 2 hours WC class, I will use partner training to train the wooden dummy forms in that 2 hours and nothing else. I like to point out the "destination" first. If people are interested, I then point out the "path" that can lead them to it. 

The 

- destination is "how to fight". 
- path is to "use WC method".


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## wingchun100 (Jan 25, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> You could demonstrate an advanced form toward the end of the class as an example of what they'd expect during advanced training.  Not sure dragging in a wooden dummy is worth it though.
> 
> As far as making a video look cool, slo mo always makes things look cool.  Ever watch Dave Chappelle's show?


 
Yes, I could show the form in class. However, in that particular post I was referring to what I should or could show in a video.


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## JR 137 (Jan 25, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Yes, I could show the form in class. However, in that particular post I was referring to what I should or could show in a video.



Without going back and digging through the thread, someone mentioned something about not having a more advanced form in the video because everything was going to be beginner stuff, or something like that.  I don't remember exactly.

I was saying that you could demo it while recording, killing two birds with one stone.  Sorry for the confusion.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 25, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Without going back and digging through the thread, someone mentioned something about not having a more advanced form in the video because everything was going to be beginner stuff, or something like that.  I don't remember exactly.
> 
> I was saying that you could demo it while recording, killing two birds with one stone.  Sorry for the confusion.


 
Oh, for some reason it read like you meant demo it in class. You mentioned dragging in the dummy. There is no way in hell I would do that. LOL However, I WOULD consider doing the dummy form on the video.


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## JR 137 (Jan 25, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Oh, for some reason it read like you meant demo it in class. You mentioned dragging in the dummy. There is no way in hell I would do that. LOL However, I WOULD consider doing the dummy form on the video.



I thought I said DON'T drag in the dummy.  If I didn't, sorry.  I'm too lazy to check.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 25, 2017)

When you said don't drag in the dummy, I thought you meant for the video LOL


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 25, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> Depends who you want to teach really. The way you set it up determines who will come.
> 
> People should be paid depending upon how others value what they do. Making a business of MA is inviting lowered standards, low quality students, and so on. Depends what is most important to you, how you choose to do it.



I can't speak for other arts, but the overwhelming majority of the best BJJ instructors in the world teach as a commercial business. Likewise the overwhelming majority of the best BJJ practitioners in the world train at academies which are run as commercial businesses. I consider that empirical evidence that running a martial arts school as a business does not have to lead to low standards or low quality students.


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