# Succesfully fighting two attackers: myth or reality?



## Bushido (Jun 30, 2002)

Not running away, fighting!

-Bushido


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## Kirk (Jun 30, 2002)

It's been done by many.


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## sweeper (Jun 30, 2002)

I think alot of more skilled fighters could take on multiple unskilled fighters.


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## LanceWildcat1 (Jul 8, 2002)

We practice it in theory, and we've even sparred two on one or three on one, just to see how to put theory into action.  Some things work, somethings don't-that's why we practice, right!! :soapbox:
Lance Hyatt


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## SolidTiger (Jul 8, 2002)

will in most forms it's about fighting more then one person...
and I think I can take two at once...

it's hard but it can happen, some people can fight four people
at once it depend on you skill...

Thank you

SolidTiger


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## arnisador (Jul 8, 2002)

I once fought three muggers to a standstill. They just jumped me at 2AM one morning when I was out walking (which was not very smart self-defense on my part).

The untrained fighters are apt to have one group assault strategy that has worked for them in the past and if you can break that up and keep moving you've got a chance. Obviously, this isn't a great situation to be in.


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## Monkey King (Jul 8, 2002)

MOst untrained fighters have the same M.O. 
One usually starts the attack while the other tries to blindside you. The time frame between the two actions can be either instantaneous or prolonged. The key, IMHO, is to become the agressor. This will ensure success.  Unleash the tiger that is most often chained.

In all of the fights I've been in against multiple opponents, this has never failed.

Is it realistic? *Absolutly!* 

When the Group Assault strategy is displayed, follow Arnisador's advice. It's right on the money.

My 2


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## SolidTiger (Jul 8, 2002)

You go for walks around 2am?

Thank you

SolidTiger


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## arnisador (Jul 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by SolidTiger _
> 
> *You go for walks around 2am? *



I was young and foolish--taking a break from a writing/research project. I work best at night and would usually stay up working until 3AM or so. But I took a break to clear my heand and ended up in a bad section of town because I wasn't paying attention to my environment, just to what was in my head--and was attacked on the bridge that leads right to the steps of the RI state capitol building in Providence. Another 100 feet and I'd have been on the capitol lawn. The NCAA tournament was in town and I think that was part of it.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bushido _
> 
> *Not running away, fighting!
> 
> -Bushido *



How do you define Successfully?

Winning? Taking no damage? or just surviving?

The reason I ask, is that in all of my serious confrontations, with two or more people, I have never come away unharmed. I have held my own against two, three, and four people before. Am I that good or am I that lucky? Well as I have not won the lotto I assume I have used my luck elsewhere. 

Arnisador has a good point to break their plan or rhythm. Also, if one or two can tie you up it is the next one in line that gets the strikes in.

So, I guess it depends upon your definition of successfully. Did I get a black eye, and lived where they got bruised or broken ribs? is this success?

In my limited opinion, I am happy to have survived all the stupid and ignorant things and places I have done and seen. 

Good question.

With respects

Rich


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## MTisGreat (Jul 8, 2002)

depends on the number of ppl. i can probably take 3. the objective when fighting many ppl is to disable them. a kick in the face would take care of one. tripping another would temporarily take them out. the 3rd guy would hit u, but who minds that when worse can happen. when they see what u can do, no one wants to go in anymore, they.re intimidated.

PS : its not as easy as it sounds, it requires lots of training


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## sweeper (Jul 9, 2002)

fighting untrained fighters is one thing, I tihnk it would be alot more difficult to take on multiple skilled or even lightly skilled fighters, I remember sparring two on one about a year ago in my JKD class, it was me and one of my freinds against a much more experienced fighter (that easily had mopped the floor with either of us) but two on one we did fine..


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## Cruentus (Jul 9, 2002)

The worse I had it was when I was attacked by 4 people when I was 19 years old. Their ages, according to the police, ranged between 24-29 yrs old. They were construction guys out in the sticks, had been drinkin,' and were lookin' to scrap. I only weighed 155 lbs then, and they where all a lot bigger then me (ranging from aprox. 165-220-ish). They all had fighting experience, even if it was only street experience, and I had almost no experience street fighting. 

It was a huge reality check for me. I did suffer a black eye, but they where a lot worse off. One of them had a wrist broken so bad that I'm sure it'll never heal right.

I'm not going to get into too many details, mostly because when something like that happends it happends so fast that the details are cloudy. I wasn't afraid; I actually didn't have any emotion during the incident, only a job to do. I just had to survive.

I think that God was with me because I made it out alive. All it would have took was one false move, and I might not be writing this today. I do believe they might have killed me, or at least hospitalized me. I think the police agreed because, for my sake, they let me go without filling out a report.  Some of the attackers were damaged badly enough to have the grounds to try to sue me. I didn't want to persecute them; their damages and embarresment was better then any charges I could have pressed.

Afterwords, I felt like S**t. I felt sick, and upset. I couldn't believe that I could hurt someone as badly as I had, or that a group of grown men could be as blood thirsty and irrational as they. I was younger, so what do you expect.

I think that to answer Rich's question, and to leave off with some sort moral, is that no one ever wins in any fight. Even though I "won" I suffered (mostly) psychological damage from it. If you have a soul, you really don't want to know what your capabilities are in respect to hurting others. I think if you fight at all, you already lost. I survived, though, and that's what counts

In fighting, I think that's the only thing that counts.

Sorry for the ramble....

Peace.:asian:


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## Ravensign (Jul 9, 2002)

I think a powerful thing working for/against people in a mugging scenarios is the predator/prey behaviors.

Muggers are acting in a predatory manner, and they are keying psychologically off of prey signals. They can see somone unconfident, nervous, starting to get rattled, and know they have it easy.  I think that as they being to approach the time of the encounter as they are prepping, their psychological state becomes even more emotional and less rational, and these signals carry more weight.

If you turn into them, and use you MA training in an agressive manner, I bet you one of the guys just bolts if not loses initiative from complete surprise.


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## Yari (Jul 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bushido _
> 
> *Not running away, fighting!
> 
> -Bushido *



Stupid question. You can't win this one. 

It really depends on the attackers, who and what do they know, and after that is established, it's  quesiton of yourself. Have you been drinking, or have a fever ro your arm is broken, and then there's the situation your in. Do you have a child with youm or GF or an old person. 

You can't define all this, so it boils down to worst case scenario, and that's that they are at least as good as you are. then do the math. You'll loose.

But if you asking if somebody ever did this, we'll I 've never seen it but heard that people have. But what you want with this info. I don't understand.

/Yari


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## Cruentus (Jul 10, 2002)

> If you turn into them, and use you MA training in an agressive manner, I bet you one of the guys just bolts if not loses initiative from complete surprise.



Ravensign: You make a lot of really good points and conjectures, so please don't think I'm going to try to deminish that, but I do want to reinerate a point. It is important to realize that much of what we do ( is only "in theory". In the scenario I described previously, these dudes weren't running from me, a little 155 lb 19 year old, for nothing. Even when I was hurting them, they didn't want to stop because they couldn't believe that some baby-faced kid was beating them. You are correct about the preditor mentality, though, and rational going out the window. I feel that it is just important for everyone to realize that there is no one good answer, and that anything could happend regardless of what you train for. One of the attackers "bolting" or "lossing initiative" is good in theory, but that can't be the expected outcome. No one outcome can ever be anticipated or expected.



> You can't define all this, so it boils down to worst case scenario, and that's that they are at least as good as you are. then do the math. You'll loose.



Yari: Some good points also. It is true that the dynamics of the situation are undefinable until afterwards. I wish, though, that it was as imperical as "do(ing) the math" to determine who'll win or lose. I guess one of the things I have learned is that truely ANYTHING can happend. Some fluk could happend I could get my butt kicked by a 12 year old woman midget, or I could get attacked by 4 people with the odds totally against me and I could come out on top. It's the "David and Goliath" scenario, in a sense. We train, but I think that truely anything can happend. It is good to keep that in mind, though; then we will remain humble realizing we could get beat at any time, but we will also have the courage we need by realizing we could win at anytime also.

Just my opinions.


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## Yari (Jul 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Agree....
To fight, you have to accept loosing.


Concerning the math -part. What I was trying to say was that the "weapon vs. unarmed, or two vs. on" situations, are not discussable. But if you expect all 3 (2 against 1) to be at the same level of MA, the chances of getting your butt kicked are large. 

I belive that the most important thing is not to worry about what can happen, but worry about how I can improve myself, and when something happens do your best.

/Yari


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## Ravensign (Jul 10, 2002)

> No one outcome can ever be anticipated or expected.



You have a good point Paul.

I was just trying to say that these factors can work for you, not that that's going to happen.

You can take any scenario and add, "..but then one of the guys pulled a gun" and it radically changes things.

My Kali guru would have a pretty good chance against several unarmed attackers I feel, but a big fat 0% against someone with a gun 20 feet away.

It's not very sexy, but the best self defense I guess is total avoidance. Don't be in that alley in the first place, etc.


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## Bod (Jul 10, 2002)

OK - my credibility is about to go out of the window.

I succesfully fought 9 - 12 opponents!

Let me qualify this - I didn't actually hit anybody. I was about 23 and a group of youths of 17-19 were walking towards me, of which two were my size or bigger. So individually I'd have been laughing. The biggest chap was standing at the back, on the left. There was a high wall on the right, and the road was on the left.

I was alerted about 10 yards away by the fact that for such a big group of lads they were awfully quiet.

I did not have the option of running from them as they were between me and the only viable way out of the situation.

Somehow I 'felt' their plan: attack when I got to the middle of their spread out pack. I could see the two ringleaders in the middle trying to look inconspicuous though they were clearly the most wired. They would most likely make the first move. It sounds like I had done a lot of thinking, but I didn't, it all just clicked.

I figured I would move with their plan until the final moment. Exactly how Arnisador suggests: 'break their plan or rhythm'.

So I drifted from the street side towards the the leftmost of the two ringleaders, making sure I had my left foot forward as I reached him. He grabbed my trouser pocket, and as he did so I sprang into life and did a big two steps diagonally towards the big guy at the back left, aiming a massive low slung ninpo style punch at him. He moved to the left and I ran through the gap swearing my head off. They sniggered as I ran off swearing, to the minicab office 50 yards beyond them, but they didn't follow me.

The surprise, and sudden change of pace got me out of there. Also they clearly had a plan - wait for the ringleaders to make their move and surround me. All the time I played dumb. One on one or even two I might have tried to appear alert, but on that many I guess they were going to give it a go whatever. 

At the time I had been meditating heavily on Musashi's advice on fighting multiple opponents, which was lucky. He assumes that you will be more skillful than your attackers, which is sensible because otherwise you would die back then with swords and everything. It certainly would have turned out completely differently if my opponents were all prepared to fight me individually, yet still attacked en masse.


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## arnisador (Jul 10, 2002)

An untrained observer would have no idea how much strategy went into relatively little movement. Congratulations! _That's_ self-defense!


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## Zujitsuka (Jul 11, 2002)

Some may feel that "mass attack randori" in the dojo or kata/forms helps prepare them for these scenarios.  However, "mass attack randori" and kata/forms makes a presumption that your attackers will fight honorably - they won't pounce on you at once.

Do you guys remember the old "GI Joe" cartoon with Duke, Snake Eyes, Cobra Commander, Destro and the rest of the gang?  Remember how bad guys used to jump on the good guys and beat them silly?  Well, that is how fighting multiple attackers really is.  Take it from me because I've had my butt kicked by multiple attackers a few times.

I'm not saying that "mass attack randori" or kata/forms is not an important part of training, but please don't develop a false sense of security that the will prepare you for a street fight.

In my humble opinion, the best way to be prepared is to train hard in your martial art, commit to becoming a well-conditioned combat athlete (so you can "take a licking and keep on ticking", and so you will have the endurance to escape), and to always be aware of what is going on around you.

All the best,

Tyrone Turner
(A Zujitsuka from NYC)
http://www.tyroneturner.com


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## Cruentus (Jul 11, 2002)

> Do you guys remember the old "GI Joe" cartoon with Duke, Snake Eyes, Cobra Commander, Destro and the rest of the gang?



GI Joe kicks @$$!!! I used to love that cartoon. My favorite was snake eyes (of course!)


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## Cruentus (Jul 11, 2002)

What the hell is a "repy"??!?! I ment reply. My spelling is off today....


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## Bushido (Jul 11, 2002)

It happens...


-Bushido


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## Bushido (Jul 11, 2002)

Personnaly, I think that fighting a single opponent can sometimes be difficult, 2 or 3 could be damn hard. This is not an conclusion, it COULD be. I think there are many factors: 

1- the number of opponents :idunno:

2- the size of opponents :jediduel:

3- the mental state of opponents :drink2tha or :rpo: or :anic:

4- the type of altercations :argue: or :boxing:

5- the place that you're in :uhoh:

6- is there weapons involved :uzi:

But in general, i would practice the ancient art of Running-Fu :2xbird:


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## Nightingale (Jul 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



a fight you walk away from with no permanant damage is a fight you have won.

also, what I've been told is try to position yourself so they can't get behind you. Put a wall at your back or something (still give yourself room to back up, just give yourself one side they can't get at you from) because it is very difficult to defend against something you can't see coming at you.

I think the degree of success here has to do with the skill of the victim versus the skill of the attackers.  If you have a very well trained victim versus a couple of common street thugs, the victim may have a good chance.  however, if you have a well trained victim versus a couple of well trained attackers, the victim is probably going down.


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## arnisador (Aug 28, 2003)

Thread moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## OULobo (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nightingale _
> *
> 
> also, what I've been told is try to position yourself so they can't get behind you. Put a wall at your back or something (still give yourself room to back up, just give yourself one side they can't get at you from) because it is very difficult to defend against something you can't see coming at you.
> ...



This is a little off topic but here goes. I had a friend who used to go out with us on occation to the bars, but he would never drink. never dance and he would always take the stool that was at the end of the bar in the corner and nearest the emergency exit. It may have been the safest and smartest place to be, but why come to the bar or club if that's what you are going to do. The only reason I could think is that he was covering the rest of us. Sorry for the rant but, my whole point is that there is a fine line between preparedness and paranoia.


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## Lawman9 (Sep 11, 2003)

I have successfully taken down multiple suspects to handcuff them. One of my students took down two armed robbers and one had a gun. He didn't realize the suspect was armed until after he put hands on, so he just followed through as we trained. He had two armed robbers in handcuffs before his backup ever got there. 
  Point to be made: he didn't see an armed robbery and progress and jumped in. He saw two guys beating up a third guy and thought it was a regular fight...
  Just my 2....


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## arnisador (Sep 12, 2003)

Any advice from that experience?


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## Lawman9 (Sep 12, 2003)

The only advice i can give is to try to control the tunnel vision. We work on that extensively sense most of my students are also cops. Tunnel vision can get you killed really quick. In a multiple attacker situation the stress level is already incredibly high and it can be easy to slip into tunnel vision. Once you lose your periperal vision and your stress control, you start missing things (i.e. gun, knife, another attacker). Not to mention your senses, such as hearing, start shutting down. 
    The person that can stay the most relaxed and move freely will always win.


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## MA-Caver (Sep 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bod _
> *OK - my credibility is about to go out of the window.
> No, I don't think your credibility would suffer... not here anyway... perhaps with the folks that know you and don't share your MA enthusiasm... have had that happen before.
> 
> ...



Had my 8 attackers (similiar situation as yours) attacked me en masse then yes I'd be hurt seriously or dead. The TWO attackers DID attack simultaneously but their timing was off enough that I was able to attend to one at a time... all very quickly of course and one had a gun. VERY very scary situation. 
The three went after me one at a time and it struck me funny during the fight that the remaining two didn't take the hint after I broke the arm of the first and had him holding his crotch while he writhe on the ground. I was actually giggling while fighting the remaining two. Fortunately they were push-overs which made it easier for me.  Had they been burly/bigger/heavier and meaner I think I'd be in bad shape.

All that experience had taught me one very valuable lesson. And the first two I had done both as soon as it was possible. Whenever possible R-U-N. There is NO shame to it at all. If you want to get technical about it or lay shame somewhere let it be on THEM as they allowed you (presumably easy prey) to escape. 

:asian:


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Sep 14, 2003)

In my own experience, the primary disadvantage a single defender has against a multiple assault is the fact that it usually happens very quickly, allowing little time to formulate strategy or tactics.  The primary advantage the single defender often (not always, not always!) has is that many times the group has no coodinated plan of attack and may (may, may!) either get in each other's way or hold back in fear of doing so.  In this case, the defender may take advantage of this by taking on as few attackers as possible at one time while using said attackers as a blockade against the others (all the while looking to get out of Dodge). IMHO, of course. :asian:


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## Lawman9 (Sep 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MACaver _
> *Had my 8 attackers (similiar situation as yours) attacked me en masse then yes I'd be hurt seriously or dead. The TWO attackers DID attack simultaneously but their timing was off enough that I was able to attend to one at a time... all very quickly of course and one had a gun. VERY very scary situation.
> The three went after me one at a time and it struck me funny during the fight that the remaining two didn't take the hint after I broke the arm of the first and had him holding his crotch while he writhe on the ground. I was actually giggling while fighting the remaining two. Fortunately they were push-overs which made it easier for me.  Had they been burly/bigger/heavier and meaner I think I'd be in bad shape.
> 
> ...


No offense here, but maybe  a little more environmental awareness would help keep you guys out of these major fights. I have successfully avoided fights for 28 years, except while i'm at work. What type of situation arises where you pi@# off 8 guys?!?!  And what type of area were you in?? Just my curiousity.


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## NoSuchChick (Sep 14, 2003)

Well, I'll have to start off by stating the disclaimer that I haven't met multiple attackers on the street.

What I have done, however, is train against multiple attackers (up to 15) and done alright.  I have also done tactical defensive training (for police, fed agents, etc.) to train for this scenario, and held my own.

Three things that I find helpful:

Remain calm.

Keep moving.  If you stay squared off, they will keep coming: but a moving target is harder to lock onto, and it interferes with an attacker's psychology: granted, only for seconds, but that gives you a few more seconds to prepare.

Next, I would say to keep your form: try not to allow yourself to be bent (inasmuch as you can) as it makes you weaker and easier to take down.  Squat if neccessary.

Granted, every situation is different, and even in the dojo, you don't always win: that's ok- better to lose in the dojo and learn, than not to learn and lose on the street.

For the record, I have many friends who have had to fight multiple attackers, and they have all walked away with minor injuries.

It is not impossible.

Jennifer


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## MA-Caver (Sep 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lawman9 _
> *No offense here, but maybe  a little more environmental awareness would help keep you guys out of these major fights. I have successfully avoided fights for 28 years, except while i'm at work. What type of situation arises where you pi@# off 8 guys?!?!  And what type of area were you in?? Just my curiousity. *



Well it wasn't a situation where I had intentionally pissed off 8 guys because nobody is really THAT stupid (are they?).  But it was about 20 years ago and I was with a (deaf) friend in downtown St. Louis and we were attending a confrence and during a two hour break we decided to go tour the city. It was on a Sunday afternoon and we were together and it was a nice day. Enroute back to the hotel (near the river) we had passed a group of young men. We didn't look their way or even bother to notice. They were a group of teenagers hanging out and we were just passing by. 
My friend and I were signing animatedly because of a choice topic and thus that does draw attention where-ever you are. It wasn't until we were about a block away from the hotel that I designed to look back over my shoulder and saw the group of kids (police told me later they ranged from 14 to 16 yrs) in a tight group following us about 50 yards back. 
My own instinct raised a red flag because I didn't see one of them smiling and all of them focused on the two of us. I warned my friend (in signs) that there "might" be trouble and that we were to go straight to the hotel without detouring to his car as originally planned. 
When we crossed the street and made contact with the hotel parking lot's boundries I thought we were safe but the group continued on straight at us like a pack of wolves. When THEY arrived at the parking lot they broke up and began trying to flank us on either side. My friend and I wove our way (still walking calmly and together) between the cars to shorten the distance to the front door of the hotel and also to break up the pack.  
I heard them calling at us (to get us to stop so they could surround us and thus do whatever!) but we ignored them because "hey we can't hear you guys we're deaf". 
When the small rocks flew by us and bounced off the parked cars I knew the game was for real and when a glass bottle shattered a windshield of a car next to us is when I gave my friend the signal to RUN. 
The chase was on and my friend made it to the hotel but I got cut off by one of the kids and had to change course, another cut off THAT route and thus I was forced to run full speed all the way around the hotel. I stopped at every side entrance hoping against hope that at least ONE of them might've been unlocked. 
At that time I saw I was able to at least keep a good 35 to 50 yard distance between me and my attackers. A quick count showed that I had six after me which meant two more were unaccounted for... I guessed rightly that they circled opposite the building hoping to catch me.  I mangaged to circle 3/4 of the hotel before being caught between kids. 
Placed my back immediately against the wall so I'd at least have a 180 degree view and no worries of any of them behind me. 
By the time the Hotel's doorman made it around the side of the building shouting "hey you kids leave that man alone!" I had disabled three of them though one of them tore my watch off my wrist. The doorman scared the kids off (and sirens wailed in the distance) and caught up with me and escorted be to the front of the hotel. 

Basically I was a victim of a group of bored kids with a tendency to do bad things.  I saw that they were just young inexperienced kids and tried to minimize what damage I could inflict on the ones that got too close. Had they all gone for me en-massed then the outcome would've been radically different.  I went ahead and pressed charges against the six that were caught because my watch was gone and therefore it was assault-robbery. 
I assumed that the six were either let off because I could not hang around for the week it would've taken for the case to go to trial. The police had my written testimony but obviously that's not enough. This was roughly 20 years ago. 
So I don't PUT myself in these situations .. I don't think a lot of people intentionally do. Just my bad luck and those kids boredom that led to the incident.  At least I gave them a run for their money, and hopefully taught them to think twice about taking on someone unknown.


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## Reprobate (Sep 15, 2003)

I've been in multiple fights against multiple attackers four times. 

The most hazardous situation I was in was after an argument in a discotheque. The two persons I quarrelled with were removed from the discotheque, but I stayed.
Stupid, I should've left right away, preferably through another exit.

When I came out of the discotheque I received a glancing blow against the head that threw me to the ground. 
Lying on my side on the bricks I was surrounded by a couple of men who were kicking at me. I think it was four or five of them, but I can't be sure. I cradled my head and received a kick against my hand that ripped the skin. The pain made me furious and I realized I had to fight back or I'd kicked to death.

One was standing in front of me, kicking me in the belly. I managed to hook one hand behind his calf and broke his kneecap with my elbow. When he went down I crawled on top of him, ignoring the others as I grabbed him by the ears and slammed the back of his head against the bricks. A hand grabbed me by the shoulder to pull me off and I grabbed the hand and broke the fingers. As I came to my feet I was alone, standing over the unconscious attacker with the broken knee. The others had fled.

The next morning I woke up sporting a jacket of bruises. I went to the hospital for an x-ray, but none of my ribs was cracked. I walked like an old man for a week, taking shallow breaths.

I was lucky - very lucky. A week or so later a man called Meindert Tjoelker was kicked to death by a couple of men because he said something about them vandalizing bicycles. That could've been me, except that I wasn't kicked in the head and remained conscious and able to fight back. And as I attacked the guy kicking my belly, the others didn't attack me all at once, which would've been the end of me as I was totally focused on the guy with the broken kneecap.

They were cowards, who ran when they saw the tables turning on them, but if they had a little more courage they would've taken me down.

My advice - if you get into an altercation and you're not bound to remain at the location - get out. Don't do what I did and stay around while the opposition gets reinforcements.


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## MA-Caver (Sep 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Reprobate _
> <snip>*I've been in multiple fights against multiple attackers four times.
> 
> <snip>They were cowards, who ran when they saw the tables turning on them, but if they had a little more courage they would've taken me down.
> ...



It seems that most attackers and multiple attackers tend to be of the hyena variety, brazen in a group but cowardly should they see that there's a chance of getting injured or killed. Only the over confident and stupid hangs around. 

But the advice (above) is sound and I heartly agree with it. If there's a chance to get away then do so and quickly. If you have to protect someone get them to run while you hold off the attackers then follow quickly or run with your companion. There is NO shame at all from the high ranking black-belt to a white belt in running from a fight. 
It's the sensible thing to do. You just cannot guess what the attacker may or may not know and what weapons they may or may not have.  Assume the worse.
We learn MA to protect/defend ourselves (among other reasons) but only when there is no alternative. Then and only then bring every ounce of your training to bear and take the attacker(s) down asap...then run.  I'm still alive because of that method of thinking.:asian:


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## lost_tortoise (Sep 16, 2003)

ATIENZA KALI!   www.atienzakali.com


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## SpiritFists936 (Oct 29, 2003)

if there is more then one attacker, your chances are slim and none, its not like the movies they all come at you at the same time, and from different directions, the only way you can come out on top is with lots of luck.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SpiritFists936 _
> *if there is more then one attacker, your chances are slim and none, its not like the movies they all come at you at the same time, and from different directions, the only way you can come out on top is with lots of luck. *




Amen Brother. If I was not lucky I would not be here typing 

You can train to think about multiple people. 

You can train to not stop when two or more people are touching you.

Yet, Luck and intention and awareness are what I find that makes the difference.

:asian:


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 1, 2003)

> Not running away, fighting!



At my age, running away isn't a viable scenario.  They'd catch me.  Running to a better place to make a stand might be possible, though.

Somebody brought up the different variables concerning this situation.  In a one on one fight, there are a ton of them.  In this scenario, the variables are multiplied.  Size of the attackers, who has what weapons, size of the defender, etc.  The list goes on.

I think we should train for the eventuality of a multiple attacker scenario...but only with our eyes open to the very real problems attendant with it.  

Some of the younger martial artists out there buy into the myth that its a perfectly acceptable challenge...hey, Bruce, Jackie and Chuck pulled it off, right?

Its a basic rule of war...seek mass in the offensive.  Try and have at least three to one in an attack on the enemy.  Don't piecemeal the attacks.  

In other words...the guy who is outnumbered is in a REALLY bad situation.  But again, its not impossible to deal with.  

SCS


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## Titan Uk (Nov 2, 2003)

We all train for multiple attackers but when the chips are now you will revert back to primal motor functions if you are not careful.

Try to always be aware of your surroundings and avoid trouble if possible.  Don't go looking for it as if will fing you and  you will get injuried.
As several of my friends have found out.
Avoid tunnel vision and the red mist, which will cloud your assessment

Any multiple attacker situation you will sustain injuries.

As other have mention if you can get out of that location, they generally choose it for a reason.

Hopeful you will not have to find out but if you do, Good luck.


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## stickarts (Nov 2, 2003)

quite a long time ago, I had 3 guys come after me. I dropped the one that i thought was the main instigator, and fortunately for me, the others changed their minds about coming after me!


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 2, 2003)

One of my students, long ago when he was young and stupid, and long before I met him, got into a one on four altercation and won by accident.  Or luck.  Or something.

He was drunk and walking home from a party when the four accosted him.  He figured he was going to get stomped, but was going to make the best of it.  He hauled back to hit the guy in front of him, and in doing so accidentally poleaxed a guy behind him with his elbow.  He then completed the punch, nailing the first guy.  The remaining two grabbed their buddies and they fled...apparently they thought he knew what he was doing.  He hadn't a clue.

I would have loved to see that one.  It sounds like it could have made "America's Funniest Home Videos".  

If at first you succeed, try not to look surprised.

SCS


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## Titan Uk (Nov 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *One of my students, long ago when he was young and stupid, and long before I met him, got into a one on four altercation and won by accident.  Or luck.  Or something.
> 
> He was drunk and walking home from a party when the four accosted him.  He figured he was going to get stomped, but was going to make the best of it.  He hauled back to hit the guy in front of him, and in doing so accidentally poleaxed a guy behind him with his elbow.  He then completed the punch, nailing the first guy.  The remaining two grabbed their buddies and they fled...apparently they thought he knew what he was doing.  He hadn't a clue.
> ...



I've seen this happen on a couple of occasions whilst at work. It can work for you but you never know. It is extremely funny when it does happen,


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## DeLamar.J (Dec 27, 2003)

If you are a good fighter, when you land a clean hit on someone they are going down or will be dazed. If your fighting two people you just have to make sure not to miss when you are trying to take out the first guy. You have to take at least one of them out quick and nasty. If not then your in trouble. And your really in trouble if your going up against two fighters who know what they are doing.


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## 7starmantis (Dec 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DeLamar.J _
> *If you are a good fighter, when you land a clean hit on someone they are going down or will be dazed. If your fighting two people you just have to make sure not to miss when you are trying to take out the first guy. You have to take at least one of them out quick and nasty. If not then your in trouble. And your really in trouble if your going up against two fighters who know what they are doing. *



I don't think I agree with that first statement. regardless of how good of a fighter you are, the person going down is relative not only to you but them as well. Saying that infers that if you do not daze or knock out your opponent the first clean hit, then you are not a good fighter. I think many would disagree with that, including fighters like Bruce Lee or Mohammed Ali maybe?

I do agree you have to take out the first guy as quickly and nasty as possible. I had an encounter with a couple of road ragers who followed me and attacked me outside my car. There was three of them and they cam running up to me. The first guy was several steps in front of the other two, and he took a bubba swing at me. I dil sau, ping choy to the head, then immediatly a nice push kick to the groin. He went down hard and the other guys just grabbed him and took off. I calmly went home and changed my shorts.

7sm


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## Mark L (Dec 29, 2003)

> _The primary advantage the single defender often (not always, not always!) has is that many times the group has no coodinated plan of attack and may (may, may!) either get in each other's way or hold back in fear of doing so.  In this case, the defender may take advantage of this by taking on as few attackers as possible at one time while using said attackers as a blockade against the others (all the while looking to get out of Dodge). IMHO, of course. :asian: [/B]_


_ 

We practice the multiple attacker scenario every few weeks, and always on test day.  We don't reherse the attack.  When I'm thugging, I find it uncomfortable to be one of the multiple attackers.  Maybe I'm used to one on one too much, and am waiting my turn.  I seem to jockey for position, look for a clean shot, etc., not really engaging agressively.  It feels like just an all out attack would result in everybody getting in everybody elses way, defeating the purpose.  However, if one of my thug friend(s) has engaged the target thoroughly there are often openings for a single shot to end it all.  I guess that could be the mindset of the experienced attacker._


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## DeLamar.J (Dec 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *I don't think I agree with that first statement. regardless of how good of a fighter you are, the person going down is relative not only to you but them as well. Saying that infers that if you do not daze or knock out your opponent the first clean hit, then you are not a good fighter. I think many would disagree with that, including fighters like Bruce Lee or Mohammed Ali maybe?
> 
> I do agree you have to take out the first guy as quickly and nasty as possible. I had an encounter with a couple of road ragers who followed me and attacked me outside my car. There was three of them and they cam running up to me. The first guy was several steps in front of the other two, and he took a bubba swing at me. I dil sau, ping choy to the head, then immediatly a nice push kick to the groin. He went down hard and the other guys just grabbed him and took off. I calmly went home and changed my shorts.
> ...


 I should have re phrased that. If you land a clean hit on an avereage thug they will go down.


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## bob919 (Jan 1, 2004)

yeh its more than reality. when i was 14 i was jumped by 2 18 yearolds at this time my knowledge of artial arts was just copying jackie chan and i won some how each of them was alot bigger than me  one of them picked me up by my jacket and i slammed 3 roudhouse elbows into his temples then he was down the otehr came up and tried to kick me; i aimed a punch at his chin but it hit his throat and he was on the floor gasping.

i was very proud


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## 7starmantis (Jan 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by DeLamar.J _
> *I should have re phrased that. If you land a clean hit on an avereage thug they will go down. *



Yeah, I guess I see what your saying, and I agree. But, just dont expect them to go down the first hit, because thye may very well not be an average thug.

7sm


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## Phil Elmore (Jan 2, 2004)

I don't think it's possible to generalize in that fashion.  Everybody's different.  

(Even the "average thug" isn't average -- because that would be a value created by measuring the above-average and below-average thugs and then dividing by the total thugs.   )


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## 7starmantis (Jan 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *I don't think it's possible to generalize in that fashion.  Everybody's different.
> 
> (Even the "average thug" isn't average -- because that would be a value created by measuring the above-average and below-average thugs and then dividing by the total thugs.   ) *



  Wow, we better not make a habit of this!!

I have to say, we agree again.

7sm


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## Phil Elmore (Jan 2, 2004)

I tend to be quite blunt but I'm really _not_ a jerk.  Keep being right and I'll keep agreeing with you.


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## hardheadjarhead (Jan 6, 2004)

> I should have re phrased that. If you land a clean hit on an avereage thug they will go down.



What is an average thug?  

How big is he?

Has the average thug served hard time?  What did he learn when he was in there?

Where do we find these average thugs?  The streets of Detroit?  The hills of Tennessee?  A trailer court in Indiana?

Has the average thug ever been hit before?  Can he take a shot?  


I'm just pointing out a few things to consider here.  Lately on the forum I've noted people throwing out absolute statements or blanket generalities to describe how they'd handle someone in a confrontation.  The notion of a clean hit on an "average thug" fits that description.  

Who is throwing the "clean hit?"  Me?  You?  A sixteen year old female green belt?  

I've thrown some VERY hard shots and hit people and they've failed to go down.  They've stayed in the fight.  I've received some good wallops and was able to stay in the fight myself...and sadly, I've taken a few that put me into Lala land...but I digress.  A "clean shot" isn't necessarily going to put anyone down.  Sometimes combinations don't.

There was a video out on the net some time back that Burton Richardson showed a bunch of us at a seminar.  It was a vid of a street fight taken by a security camera at a bar.  A guy delivered THREE full power and essentially perfect headbutts (by my estimate...and I consider myself a minor luminary on this topic) to another guy's face and head...all to no avail.  The receiver of these very clean shots stayed in the fight, much to the dismay of his antagonist, I imagine.  Adrenaline and willpower make a pretty powerful combination.

I'd say "there are no sure things", but I never use absolutes.  

Never.  

And I never will again.


Regards,


Steve


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## loki09789 (Jan 6, 2004)

Why would I be fighting two or more attackers?  Is it a lifestyle risk (work related, or just risky habits - drugs/party crowd/bad choice of friends...)?  Am I not sizing up my surrounding well?  Am I so stupid/drunk/emotional... that I think it is smart to stay there when it is obvious that I am in the stinky pile?  

I am not interested in 'fighting' two or more attackers, I am interested in setting up the situation so I can hit and run or just run!

If I absolutely can not run, it really depends on SO many variables it is hard to generalize, but some basics would be to get the best weapon (gun, brick, car...) and set myself up in the best place based on the terrain and always look for the best chance to get out of there.

I mean really, I have a kid and wife to get home to at this point in my life.  Even when I was military/infantry/leo the motto was to work smarter and not harder.  Get the job done but remember the purpose that you are trying to accomplish and get it done with the best tactics.

Paul Martin


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## 7starmantis (Jan 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *Why would I be fighting two or more attackers?  Is it a lifestyle risk (work related, or just risky habits - drugs/party crowd/bad choice of friends...)?  Am I not sizing up my surrounding well?  Am I so stupid/drunk/emotional... that I think it is smart to stay there when it is obvious that I am in the stinky pile?  *



I had two guys jump in my car and try to basically kill me. I hadn't put myself in the wrong situation, I was driving home from work. Now you could say its my fault because I didn't have my door locked, but I think thats a little faulty logic. There was absolutely nothing I could do to get away, and there was really nothing I could get to as a weapon. Although in that situation with me in the car and two of them on top of me, I don't think I would have tried to produce a weapon since that would mean I would have to stop defending myself and get a weapon that would probably have been taken away from me and used against me.

I'm just trying to show that there are situations beyond your control that can happen and put you in this situation.

7sm


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## loki09789 (Jan 7, 2004)

I would never say that it would was your fault that you got jumped, just like I would never say a rape victim asked for it.  I would say that locking the doors or all the other little habits that fall under tactical thinking reduce the likelyhood of a successful ambush.  I would say that knowing the crime stats of the area can be helpful, or varying your routes when traveling creates some randomness that make you hard to pin down if someone is scouting you (doesn't sound like it in this case).

     I got jumped on my way to visit a friend at college years back.  I was in the country, in an area I knew well and stopped out of the blue at a convenience store that didn't have a high crime history.  I 'fell asleep at the wheel' though because of where I parked in relation to the building when there were smarter places to choose.  I didn't help myself because I wasn't paying attention as well as I could have been.  I didn't at least register the fact that the two guys were lounging around the place when I went in - that would have helped with the police report for description and ID at the very least.

     By weapons I mean anything that you can use quickly in a given situation.  Your body/mind is the most accessible and after that it depends on what you have that extends beyond that: guns, rocks, bottles, knives... I meant weapons in the theoretical/conceptual definition.

     Like you, I didn't cause the attack, but, at 19 years old, 130 lbs and 5'4" I also didn't do the little things that would have made me a less appealing target.   Luckily, I got away with only some bruises and a good scare, but I remember in the moment that I had no interest in 'fighting' them.  I had all the passion in the world for getting away very quickly.

     The other stuff about lifestyle choices is part of what I think to be the bigger picture of martial arts training:  Knowing yourself inside and out honestly and with no illusions.  If you - meaning a hypothetical you - were a drug abusing, broke prostitute living in a high crime area then obviously the set up is going to lead to a lot of bad things coming your way.  Choices, lifestyle and a healthy mental state can greatly reduce the 'random' violence that people might experience.

If we had total control, I would have won the lottery by now.

Paul Martin


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## 7starmantis (Jan 7, 2004)

Good post, however I don't think I can completely buy into the mentality that a person can prevent anything by being completely observative. Don't get me wrong, a majority of bad situations can be prevented by observing and knowing your surroundings, but to look back on situations and think man I could have prevented it by doing this is only hindsight. There are situations that happen that you have no control over and could not have avoided or prevented by any amount of observation.

I am *not* saying it isn't good to be obervant, or that knowing your surroundings isn't worth much. Quite the contrary, however you can't stop every situation that is going to end up bad. I refuse to live my life in fear. I am of the belief that part of my happiness is not having to worry about locking the doors every time I'm in the car. Don't get me wrong, I do that by habit, but I don't want to have to worry about it. I guess its a mental game I'm talking about, but being observant is wonderful, just don't over fill your head with notions that you can prevent every bad situation from hurting you. Thats why we train in MA in the first place.

7sm


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## loki09789 (Jan 7, 2004)

I agree with you about the happiness through habit thing.  I hope I didn't come off saying that observation skills can be honed to a JEDI mind reading level of skill - No way.  We seem to be on the same wave length that it is possible to reduce the opportunity for someone to see us as targets through good habits and observing situations.  It is by no means a catch all.

I like the comment about happiness though.  I use to tell  students who talked about self defense classes stirring up their fear of getting attacked and I responded with something like your locking the door post.  I do these tactical habits because they are good for me now, not because I am afraid.  

It sounds like a contraction but I see it as freedom and joy through discipline and habit.  You take charge of the things you can, evaluate the past to learn from it- not for criticism and self abuse, and do the best you can along the way.

Sorry this is off topic, but it is and interesting tangent!  Next time it will be more on topic
Paul Martin


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## loki09789 (Jan 7, 2004)

sounds like a contradiction even - some english teacher!


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## 7starmantis (Jan 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *I agree with you about the happiness through habit thing.  I hope I didn't come off saying that observation skills can be honed to a JEDI mind reading level of skill - No way.  We seem to be on the same wave length that it is possible to reduce the opportunity for someone to see us as targets through good habits and observing situations.  It is by no means a catch all.
> 
> I like the comment about happiness though.  I use to tell  students who talked about self defense classes stirring up their fear of getting attacked and I responded with something like your locking the door post.  I do these tactical habits because they are good for me now, not because I am afraid.
> ...



I wasn't trying to point my post at you, I just wanted to say a couple of things.

I think we are on the same wavelength, habit is good, its just kind of sad when you run into those who let this "fear" overtake their lives. Thats when I think its too much.

7sm :asian:


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## loki09789 (Jan 7, 2004)

back on the actual physical attack...

I think that one advantage - and there aren't many - to the single defender is that multiple attacks are confusing to the attackers as well.  Luckily I wasn't in the mix, but I remember in High School I went to a party that got out of hand (wrong crowd, lifestyle choice...) and one of the guys I knew who took martial arts beat up four guys because they didn't know how to coordinate their attack and got in each other's way.

So much depends on the environment and the attackers, but on a strategic level, I think that it is simpler - not easier by any means, but simpler - to coordinate your own body to fight off the attack if you  are trained well than it is to coordinate multiple bodies that you have no control over to make a successful attack on a single point/person.  More room for fumbling and mistakes that could lead to the single person finding an escape route.

Consider how much time and effort goes into military fire and maneuver training so that multiple attackers move well together as well as sports where coordinated 'attack' is drilled and drilled.  When I first started playing hockey, I would constantly be bumping into my own team mates because I was out of position or didn't know where they were going.  

Paul martin


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## bob919 (Jan 13, 2004)

i dont know if anyone has mentioned this yet bt a great strategie to use when fighting multiple attackers is to use one as a shield by positioning yurself so only he can hit you and al the others are behind him then pound on him and start it all over again.

you cant afford to have mercy when it comes to multiple attackers remember hey wouldn't show mercy to you


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## Mark Lynn (Jan 18, 2004)

Reading this thread got me thinking of an incident that happened to me back in the mid 80's.

My wife, her brother and I all went to a mud drag event in a arena in Waco TX.  As we were walking out we were making our way to our car that was in a part of the parking lot (area) where the light was very poor.  We were walking in between the cars trying to get to our car when a car stopped in front of us in the main isle (it was stop and go and the car was in line to try and work it's way out of the exit).  I went around the rear end of the car with my wife right behind me and my brother in law (B I L) a little further back.

Next thing I hear is someone yelling at a guy with a purple shirt, my awareness heightened (a fight where) and I started trying to figure out who was yelling and where the possible fight was.  My brother in law comes up and we continued to my wife's car.

When we get there I go around to the driver's side and my wife and B I L go around to the passenger's side when a much bigger guy (than I) comes from the front and slams his fist on the hood of the car cussing at us and threatening to kick our @#%$# and I'm like whoa!

Trying to figure out is going on and get out from inbetween the van on my left and my wife's car on my right I started to back up and tried talking to the guy to calm him down.  When I was hit and knocked up against the side of the car ripping off the dirver's side mirror.

Some how I managed to get to the rear of the car and I think I hit one of them. But the last I remembered was "Well hit the Bi#%.


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## Mark Lynn (Jan 18, 2004)

When I came to I was clutching my wedding ring in my hand face down in the mud behind the car.  My wife and her brother weren't around.  I got up and went and opened the car door placing my wedding ring inside and then I was going to hunt the guys down and hurt them.  Because all I remembered was the guy saying hit the bi#@ refering to my wife.

I started looking for them (her) when I made it to a gate and some guards/police saw me and I think everything got weird where I didn't know what I was doing there or anything.  All of the sudden my wife comes up and gets me and we report the incident to the guards/police.  (It was like being on some kind of a drug trip cause I was out of it and everyone seemed distorted)  Anyway we went back to the car and we got wittnesses statements etc. etc. and it was from talking to them and my wife that I later learned what had happened.

There were two of them and one came around from behind the van and hit me upside the back of the head as I was trying to talk the guy in front of me down.  He proceeded then to hit my B In L who was coming around from the other side of the car when this guy hit me.  My B In L got hit and went down as I was getting up from hitting the side of the car and made it to the rear of the car where I think I Thai kicked one in the leg (nothing much behind it though) cause someone said "Oh a fighter".

The one who hit me got me from behind and pulled me to the ground where he held me in a sitting position where the first guy went to kicking or hitting me.  My wife came up from behind the guy who was holding me down and tried to kick him in the nuts as he was bent over holding me down.  All she ended up doing was ticking the guy off by kicking him in the butt.  Which is when the guy trying to kick my face in told him to hit her.

He turned around to hit her when (she felt) he recognized that he was going to start beating on a women and maybe that was going over the line (like they hadn't crossed that already).  Anyway they took off without hitting her.  My B In L got up and she took off after them.


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## Mark Lynn (Jan 18, 2004)

My wife knowing that I had been in the martial arts for 5-6 years I think at the time and seeing me get my butt kicked all over the dojo mat by my instructor figured that I could take a beating and keep on ticking (like Timex), so she left me in the mud and took off after the guys to get their license number.  As they ran back to their car, I guess their date who had been put in charge to drive took of and moved the car.  So they looked all over the place for it while my wife running around behind them and hiding behind cars and people keeping an eye on them.  Seriously she would run up to a group of people act like she was part of the group as these guys searched for their car and then take off after them again.

Finally they found their car and my wife got their license #.  And then she found her brother and they came looking for me where they found me at the gate with the guards wondering around.  I was covered in mud and looked rough.

So with a license # and a good description of the assailents car and them.  Wittnesses names and phone numbers in hand we went to the emergency room to get checked out.  We both came out alright, me with a slight concussion.  My B In L was moaning while we were sitting in the waiting area "Why did this happen?  I thought you knew martial arts.  Why would they do this to us?"  I told him we came out pretty good.  "Look be thankful your sister wasn't raped or hurt, and nobody was shot or stabbed."


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## Mark Lynn (Jan 18, 2004)

Reporting this to the police was another lesson in what can happen in a assault.

First my wittensses didn't want to talk to the police except to back up that they attacked me and I didn't do anything to them.  In fact in talking to them (the wittness and his family) the guy said he was scared in how violent the attack was and he feared they might come and get him.  The police detective (whomever) who was investigating the assault when my B In L  and I showed up to talk to him about the assualt said he had investigated who owned the car and talked to them.  He said one of us hit their car.

I said "what? nobody hit their car"  "They hit me/us"  Well it seemed that my B In L when we came out from inbetween the cars as they were parked (or rolled to a stop) in front of us (we came at a 90 degree angle to the car) that while my wife and I walked around the back of the car.  My B In L hit his knee in the rear quarter panel (behind the passenger rear tire) and slapped his hand on thier roof/trunk of their car.  He finally admitted this while we are talking to the detective.

Supposedly he damaged their car and this justified our beating in their eyes (and the police's really).  When I brought up the fact that I had not touched their car and I was the first one who was assualted and that I was the one who took the beating and I still wanted to press charges against them.  I was informed that they wanted to file counter charges against us and that it was better to let it go.  And that was it.  Over done.

This had a lot of lessons for me and I relate to people in self defense classes as to what can happen when when an assualt takes place. 

Mark


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## OULobo (Jan 19, 2004)

Sounds to me like you should have pressed the issue and pressed charges anyway. Damage to property in any instance is not justification for assult and battery, especially if you didn't do the damage. I know some people prolly won't like this, but this is an example of when a lawyer will have a better idea of what is best, not a police officer. 

Of course, this did happen at a tractor pull.


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## Mark Lynn (Jan 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *Sounds to me like you should have pressed the issue and pressed charges anyway. Damage to property in any instance is not justification for assult and battery, especially if you didn't do the damage. I know some people prolly won't like this, but this is an example of when a lawyer will have a better idea of what is best, not a police officer.
> 
> Of course, this did happen at a tractor pull.  *



Well I did go to a lawyer after the police didn't want to do anything about it.  He wanted to sue the Heart Of Texas Colusium (which was where it happened) for poor or inadaquate lighting in the parking area.  But he had no intention of going after the people who assualted us because the money wasn't in going after them it was in going after the HoTC.

To be honest I dropped it after that.  I wasn't going to sue HoTC when they had nothing to do with the matter but only to line this guys pockets.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 19, 2004)

The results of that story are familiar, as I was jumped by two guys who entered my car as I was stopped. I've told the story before, but during the year it took to hit the court room, I was asked if I had done anything to piss them off in trafic before the attack. I told them not that I was aware of. I was then told that if I had flipped them off (which I hadn't) that it would most likely be ruled as double aggressivness or something to that matter, and would result in the case being thrown out. 
I couldn't believe that if someone in America fliped off another person they could legally beat the crap out of them. Doesn't make sense, but then when has our court system made sense?

7sm


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## OULobo (Jan 19, 2004)

I don't mean to miff any of the LEOs on the forum, but often times it seems the police just don't want to do the paper work or think they know what the situation is. There is a reason we have a court system in the US, so the enforcers (police) don't get to judge, the people do. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you tell the police you want to file charges, I don't have a problem with them telling their opinion, but you still have the right to demand charges be filed and they have the legal duty to investigate. If you find a lawyer that has his targets set on big venue money, get another lawyer. They work for you, let them know that. I think if I were in that situation I would thank the officer for his opinion and then ask him for the paperwork needed to file the charges. Aggressive words or gestures and damage to property are still no cause for violence. Just look at how the "I fear for my life" argument holds up in court now-a-days. I doesn't, you still have to prove real threat or intent of harm. "He started it" only works with your siblings, lethal force and equal levels of retaliation.


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## Bod (Jan 20, 2004)

Earlier in this thread I was asked about my situational awareness after ending up in a place surrounded by a large number of thugs, and recieved well meant suggestions that this might be related to lifestyle choices.

I was in a strange and (known to me) dodgy area of South East London. I had got on the wrong train and ended up there, and the next train was in an hour, after an hour long wait in a dark rail station.  If I was in the same situation today, I would have got a cab out of there when I had the opportunity. That's because now I can afford one. 

At the time I was a student, living in a nearby, and only slightly better, part of London on a rent of £15 (say $25) a week. I couldn't afford any more than that so I had little choice about where to live. When I had my first opportunity to get a cab out of the place I knew I would be very short of money (for food and stuff) if I did so. After a fruitless search for a bus home I was returning to the rail station when turning a corner I almost ran into the guys mentioned in the earlier post.

I had already figured out that if I got into trouble I'd hot foot it to the cab office as soon as possible, which is why I didn't turn and run. They were between me and relative safety.

If I remember rightly I had to cycle to college for the next week, to make up for the money spent on the cab fare. Dangerous on London roads.

Now I have my degree, and sufficient spare cash to make some 'lifestyle choices'. Still, with the close proximity of poor and wealthy areas in London, you can only be so safe.


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## loki09789 (Jan 21, 2004)

the lifestyle/situational awareness comments were not directed at any individual post or poster.  It was a general checklist of things that I take into consideration personally and have been able to use fairly well to avoid the majority of problems in my life.  

As far as lifestyle choices and location and such, of course money is a huge issue.  How many reported cases of violent crime do you get in suburban/better income housing versus other areas?  Very few relatively speaking.  Compare the number of massacres and 'ethnic cleansing'/religious freedom fighters actively operating in third world versus first world countries.  When the money is good and quality of life is higher, fewer people will act up.  Prosperity is not evil if you stay moral. 

Within police circles they use the term the broken window theory.  Basically, if the neighborhood is loaded with run down buildings and broken windows on houses and the yards are full of trash and overgrown, chances are there is little community pride/financial support and those living there don't care as much about where or how they get their money/thrills.

Paul Martin


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## Bod (Jan 21, 2004)

I see where you're coming from and didn't take offense at your post. I just believe that, although the principle that 'lifestyle choices help to keep you safe' is true, the converse doesn't hold, i.e. 'If you were in a bad situation you are to blame', and I wanted to emphasise that point.

During the 39-45 war London was bombed extensively, each bomb taking out about 3 houses. The holes were filled with 'Bomb damage flats', low cost 3 or four story appartment blocks with typically 10 to 12 flats (U.S. = apartments).

On top of this around the turn of the last century, many housing charities set up blocks of apartments in estates, very close to better housing. The apartments were far better than the slums of the time, but as housing quality has risen, they are at the bottom of the heap.

These schemes were designed to avoid ghettoisation, and to some extent they have succeeded. Thus, most of London is poor areas interspersed closely with much wealthier areas, apart from the very centre that is, with its £2000 ($3000) per month rents.

That's the background I'm coming from, which is different from many towns and cities in the world.

Cheers,


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## loki09789 (Jan 21, 2004)

The converse of the lifestyle choice is not, in my opinion it's your fault if you get in a bad situation either.  I do believe that you can stack the deck in your favor by using your head and making the best choices you can given the reality of your particular situation.

No one would blame a woman, dressed like a Britney Spears look alike, drunk and out of it at a house party where she doesn't know anyone away at college for being raped, but she could be accused of poor judgement that made the rape more statistically likely.  Not blame as much as choice and accepting the fact that not all things just happen to us, we do exercise some control, though not total, over our lives.

Paul Martin


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## James Kovacich (Jan 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Bushido _
> *Not running away, fighting!
> 
> -Bushido *



Yes, but idealy I would try to use my skill to make the best of it. If they were armed, then it would be a bad idea to even try.

If they both attacked simultaniously then it would be an unlevel playing field in their favor.

:asian:


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## arnisador (Feb 5, 2004)

http://www.peterboroughet.co.uk/ViewArticlemore2.aspx?SectionID=845&ArticleID=733652



> WORLD karate star Clifton Findley had part of his ear bitten off when a brawl broke out in a Peterborough pub.


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## mandirigma (Feb 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *...one of the guys I knew who took martial arts beat up four guys because they didn't know how to coordinate their attack and got in each other's way.
> 
> ...*





This is a great point.  Perhaps someone already mentioned it, but with multiple opponents I immediately think of stacking. 

Luckily, most bad guys don't quit their jobs at NASA to lead a life of crime.  Unless they are well rehearsed and organized, you stand an ok chance of taking the initiative (OODA loops).  Aggressive lateral movement both moves you off the line of force and might enable you to stack up the BGs.  (To stack them up in a line in front of you, thus requiring at least one of the BGs to go over his buddy to get to you.)

To be tactically sound with/against a firearm, stacking can be a literal life-saver.  Even unarmed, however, this tactic makes a great deal of sense.  Stacking gives you more of an opportunity to attack one person at a time while attenuating the BGs' chances of simultaneous attacks.

Granted, if they are coordinated, they'll probably be able to effect their pincer movement.  But you never know.

If the attackers aren't totally committed, then our total committment to our survival, coupled with our pre-planning, can make a difference.



:asian:


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## Skyline22 (Mar 21, 2004)

It's not a myth, in fact you can fight more than two depending your knowledge of multiple attacker situations.  I'm not saying you can stand in the middle of a crowd and dispatch them Bruce Lee or Matrix style..but you CAN keep mobile, use your surroundings to limit their options, use natural weapons in the area, tie your opponents up, and begin taking some of them out of the equation.  I come from a combative background with the military, and I've engaged in several hand to hand scenarios..YES, you can handle several attackers, if you use what's available to you and understand what you see around you.


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## 8253 (Mar 23, 2004)

%-} Definatly can be done.  If your viscious enough. %-}


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## Tony (Mar 24, 2004)

I think it also depends on the skill of your opponents, and if they have had any Martial Arts or fight experience. But if your will to survive is so strong I believe you can defend yourself against more than one attacker. But only if you are prepared to be ungentlemanly and use some nasty tricks!
I remember my instructor saying that once one opponent is down on the floor and hurt his friends will have no interest in fighting you! It kind of makes sense if you can really hurt one so bad that he needs immediate help from his friends, which means that fighting you is not an option. However whats to say that won't enrage them and make them more eager to hurt you even more!?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 25, 2004)

have done it many a time bouncing some bonehead out of a club, then having his friend come to his aid. Can be done, definitely. Meanness counts. And I personally prefer it if they know some MA...seems to lock people into a familiar pattern of combat predictabilities. (i.e., hand a guy a bat, and you can guess within a small margin of error what he's likely to do with it).

It's never Matrix or Bruce Lee pretty, which is why I advocate for training in MA, but fighting like a savage brute.  Viking berserker-ryu, with some honed basics.


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## Kevin Walker (Jul 10, 2004)

Since I have successfully defended myself against two attackers on more than one occasion, it is not a myth, but a brutal necessity and, what was once called, a factual actual.


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## shrek (Feb 2, 2007)

Bushido said:


> Not running away, fighting!
> 
> -Bushido


 
Yep.  But I definitely notice a change in my style and tactics depending on how many people are involved.  1-1 I tend to be nice if possible...the old "Show the attacker what a fool he is for attacking".  Aikido is my style of choice for this purpose.

With two or more it goes to niceness is OUT and ten second fight rule is in.  "If a fight lasts for more than ten seconds you've already lost".   Krav Maga is most useful for this stage.

Four or more and/or weapons involved it goes straight to kill/disable strikes.  In that case I ran like heck to get them separated, found a nice spot for a stand then ambushed the first guy with time to spare before the second could arrive.  Corners are your friend!   Tactical running I find quite acceptable


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## Munkyjitsudo (Feb 4, 2007)

As someone who has grown up in the ghetto and ont he streets, I can say I have  taken on 6 people at once, but this is why. I was always told by my older uncles that when your getting mugged you usually have only one person who is really gung ho and all about fighting and mugging and the rest are followers and fools who would never stand toe to toe with someone. So as long as you keep your head held high and dont show any fear take out the first guy to come lunging at you and then you most likely are left with a bunch of people who want no part of you. As in what happened with my case, we were getting mugged in front the high school, we ran and all got away except my one friend who got cornered in some gates, 6 of the 7 people who were in the car came out, I saw the first guy go up to my friend and try to put my his hand in my friends pocket and they were all focusing on my friend, also to mention thee guys were all in there twenties and thirties, I ran up and blind sided him with a running flying ghetto superman punch to the jaw and knocked him clear out and continued with the rain of punches to show a message in all the chaos my shoe fell off and I grabbed and continued to beat o another guy and then they just turned and high tailed it, cops were called and the guys were actually caught, haha.


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## KenpoTex (Feb 4, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> It's never Matrix or Bruce Lee pretty, which is why *I advocate for training in MA, but fighting like a savage brute. Viking berserker-ryu, with some honed basics*.


  Well put...



			
				shrek said:
			
		

> With two or more it goes to niceness is OUT and ten second fight rule is in. "If a fight lasts for more than ten seconds you've already lost". Krav Maga is most useful for this stage.
> 
> Four or more and/or weapons involved it goes straight to kill/disable strikes. In that case I ran like heck to get them separated, found a nice spot for a stand then ambushed the first guy with time to spare before the second could arrive. Corners are your friend! Tactical running I find quite acceptable.


  I'm not going to waste time even if there are "only" two...
IMO, multiple attackers, armed or not, are a justification for deadly force from the outset of the engagement due to the disparity of force that exists.  
If you're willing to take a chance on using a lesser degree of force to handle groups of less than 4, good luck to you...I'm not going to be that charitable.


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## evenflow1121 (Feb 4, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> It's never Matrix or Bruce Lee pretty, which is why I advocate for training in MA, but fighting like a savage brute. Viking berserker-ryu, with some honed basics.


 

I totally agree, and piggy backing this, I would say few know how to teach this than the majority that claims they can teach you to fend off multiple attackers.


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