# Martial Ethics...still taught?



## AceHBK (Feb 17, 2008)

I remember there being a thread on martial ethics a long time ago in another section on the board but I am making this one to focus on the martial ethics of CMA's

Are they evern still taught nowadays in schools and do you stress and teach them as well?

I thought about it while watching the tv show Wing Chin.  It is a continuation of the movie The Prodigal Son but this time Yuen Biao is grown with 2 20 something year old sons and refuses to teach Wing Cun.  Sammo also joins the tv show.  Great showing of WC I must admit.  Definately something to order and watch since it only came on tv in China.

But in the tv show there is a lot of talk and emphasis on martial ethics an how one should be.  I see that in CMA's it is something that is highly stressed.    Do you think as time has gone on we all have forgotten that part of it?  Have we all missed some of the major philosophical aspects of martial arts just to focus on self defense (and for others...beat someone up).  If you went your whole life without using your MA would you be happy or kinda sad that you couldnt apply it in a real situation?

I hate to admit that a tv show made me think about the reasons why we learn MA as well as what do we get from it?  Do we just learn how to fight or do we learn how not to fight and how to act?  

Your thoughts?


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## Sukerkin (Feb 17, 2008)

Any time you learn something that has the potential to harm someone else then you have a duty to take on board a certain ethical restraint too.  

For me, if I could go my whole life without having to use what martial skills I have on someone else I would be very happy - after all, "defence" comes in many forms and avoiding troble in the first place is the best of all.  

Sadly, it's too late for me as my 'record' is already blotted.  But I can still hope to make the _rest_ of my life without having to get physical in an unpleasant way.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 17, 2008)

I am short on time right now but I will say Sanda is basically for one thing, fighting and yet my sanda sifu will teach no one he feels will use it for figthing. If you want to use it to hurt other people he will not teach you . If you want to use it to keep in shape and defend yourself and family if necessary then he will teach and then only if he knows and trusts you


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## kidswarrior (Feb 17, 2008)

Well said *Skn*, as usual.  Am totally in agreement.

*X S*, hats off to your Sanda Sifu, and you for studying with such a person. :asian: This is what I aspire to be as a teacher also. *Ace*, unfortunately, I haven't seen this with all CMA schools.


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## terryl965 (Feb 17, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Any time you learn something that has the potential to harm someone else then you have a duty to take on board a certain ethical restraint too.
> 
> For me, if I could go my whole life without having to use what martial skills I have on someone else I would be very happy - after all, "defence" comes in many forms and avoiding troble in the first place is the best of all.
> 
> Sadly, it's too late for me as my 'record' is already blotted. But I can still hope to make the _rest_ of my life without having to get physical in an unpleasant way.


 
Excellent post


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## AceHBK (Feb 17, 2008)

Thanks for te responses.

It makes you wonder though that a lot of people taking up MA now want to fighters and don't care about the whole moral aspect of it.  It seems like the culture is more of trying to prove oneself against others.

Xue .... you said that your Sanda teacher will turn down some perspective students.  I wonder how many other Masters do the samething or just say "money is money...im here to get paid".  Makes you think because later on down the line that same student who may not have good ethical qualitites could end up becoming a master himself and opening a school with that same mentality and that cause an even greater harm.

Do you teach MA's as a lifestyle or just the self defense aspect?  
Do there still exists the MA teacher that teaches you self defense, ethics, healing medicine, etc?

We always tell people to check out schools and make sure it isnt a McDojo and to sit down and speak with the instructors to guage how they are as an individual.  It makes me wonder how many instructors sit down with perspective students and learn their background and say "yes I will accept you" or "sorry, i may not be the best instructor for you"

Question.....
If you had your choice which would you go with

A) Instructor who didn't teach martial ethics but from what you could tell, produced great fighters
B) Instructor that taught martial ethics but the fighters u saw weren't that great.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 17, 2008)

AceHBK said:


> Thanks for te responses.
> Xue .... you said that your Sanda teacher will turn down some perspective students. I wonder how many other Masters do the samething or just say "money is money...im here to get paid". Makes you think because later on down the line that same student who may not have good ethical qualitites could end up becoming a master himself and opening a school with that same mentality and that cause an even greater harm.


 
My Sanda sifu has had few students outside of his family and he does not run an official school and I knew him for a while before I even new he did sanda. He only tells people, outside of is family, that he already knows and trusts. 

I recently tried to get him to open a small school because I know a few people that are looking for something like Sanda and in today&#8217;s world he could make a bundle but he refused. As he said he has a fulltime job and Sanda (to him) is not about money. As a related side to this, my taiji sifu says much the same thing when you talk to him about expanding his school, Taiji is not about money, but he has a full time job too. 



AceHBK said:


> Question.....
> If you had your choice which would you go with
> 
> A) Instructor who didn't teach martial ethics but from what you could tell, produced great fighters
> B) Instructor that taught martial ethics but the fighters u saw weren't that great.


 
Neither

EDIT

I had to add to this after thinking about it a bit

I have never had a CMA sifu that openly taught ethics as part of the curriculum it is more of a by example thing and it is VERY hard to look at a CMA class, in my experience, and tell right away how the teacher is teaching. Looking for ethics in CMA to me is much like spirituality it is intrinsic and not overt in most cases


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 17, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> Well said *Skn*, as usual.  Am totally in agreement.
> 
> . *Ace*, unfortunately, I haven't seen this with all CMA schools.


 
My first CMA sifu will teach anybody anything for a buck, fortunately these days what he teaches is pretty useless


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## Steel Tiger (Feb 17, 2008)

AceHBK said:


> It makes you wonder though that a lot of people taking up MA now want to fighters and don't care about the whole moral aspect of it. It seems like the culture is more of trying to prove oneself against others..


 
There is a cultural consideration at variance here as well.  Martial arts in the west have traditionally been about just learning how to fight, whether that be for protection or for prizes.  The Marquis of Queensbury introduced rules, not to sanitise and give an ethical position to the art of Defence, but to limit the successes of the Scottish and French who were expert in kicking.  It wasn't about behaving properly it was about effectiveness and money.

In ancient Greece, athletes were professionals in a sense we would understand today.  They fought for money, it was how they made a living or supplimented their incomes, but they weren't necessarily nice guys.  some of the most successful and famous Olympic wrestlers were bullies and brutes who terrorised their hometowns but were still praised for winning the Olympics.

Compare that to the traditional CMA student.  They made a commitment to not only learn from their teacher but to obey him.  Many lived with their teachers and took care of them in exchange for the knowledge imparted.  It is true that China had many men who we would consider professional prize fighters as well, but I would think that if their teachers told them not to fight they would at least think very hard about if not just stop fighting.

It is clear that ethics and morality in the fighting arts were important to the Chinese or they would not have so many tales about noble warriors (Youxia) travelling the country righting wrongs.  The Chinese clearly expected something more from martial artists than did the west.  Unfortunately , they usually didn't get it.  Here is a Tang Dynasty poem which sums things up (kinda)



> For ten years I have been polishing this sword;
> Its frosty edge has never been put to the test.
> Now I am holding it and showing it to you, sir:
> Is there anyone suffering from injustice?
> ...


 




AceHBK said:


> Do you teach MA's as a lifestyle or just the self defense aspect?
> Do there still exists the MA teacher that teaches you self defense, ethics, healing medicine, etc?.


 
My teacher teaches fighting and traditional medicine.  He has always tried to impart the ethical concepts of Taoist philosophy even though he does not teach either ethics or philosophy directly.





AceHBK said:


> We always tell people to check out schools and make sure it isnt a McDojo and to sit down and speak with the instructors to guage how they are as an individual. It makes me wonder how many instructors sit down with perspective students and learn their background and say "yes I will accept you" or "sorry, i may not be the best instructor for you".


 
There is a big difference between "talking the talk" and "walking the walk".  I would bet that a lot of McDojo instructors can do a pretty convincing "talk the talk", its part of how they convince mothers to let their children join the class.  So talking with them would not get you very far I guess.  I know that I sit down with students and explain what training is going to involve (that's seems to be where I lose most prospective students, maybe I should stop doing that), but I do not speak of ethics or morality.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 17, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> I have never had a CMA sifu that openly taught ethics as part of the curriculum it is more of a by example thing and it is VERY hard to look at a CMA class, in my experience, and tell right away how the teacher is teaching. Looking for ethics in CMA to me is much like spirituality it is intrinsic and not overt in most cases





			
				Steel Tiger said:
			
		

> My teacher... has always tried to impart the ethical concepts of Taoist philosophy even though he does not teach either ethics or philosophy directly.



This communication-without-communicating is a dying art in the West, even (especially?) in public schools. There is the information, which is directly _taught_. Then there is the real learning, which can only be_ caught_. The latter takes time and patience, things the public seems to have little of whether for MA or children's development.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 17, 2008)

Nice expression there, my friend, about the distinction between information and learning.  It strikes me that it is similar to the difference between intelligence and wisdom.  

In my younger years, I was cursed with a surfeit of intelligence, which, tho' I was shy, made me think that I knew better than those who were decades my senior (particularly my father).  As I grew up, I came to realise that tho' I might *know* more than those who had been around longer than me, I did not really *understand* more.

Where this touches on eithics is tied into the old phrase "You were too busy thinking whether you could to consider whether you should".  I'm sure that that comes from a film or sci-fi series or somesuch but that doesn't make it any less an excellent precis of what an ethical martial artist should avoid.


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## grydth (Feb 17, 2008)

I had the aggressive know-it-alls, too, at a young age.

 My father told me that he noticed I was very quick with words or fists.... but that I should consider that just because I could do something did not mean that I should do it.  Hmmmmmm

Then another time I was spoiling for a fight, I am sure because of some trivial set back in life, when I ran across a friend who had suffered a genuine tragedy. After helping her, I was shocked to learn that I felt even better - much better in fact - than if I'd spread misery to somebody else. Hmmmmmm again - even I could learn from this.

I have had very few preacher type martial artist teachers, and yet anyone could see how they lived their lives and what they stood for. Actions, not words, define us.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 17, 2008)

Can't rep you at present, *Grydth* but I oh so agree with your last there :tup:.

I would perhaps modify it to extend to intentions tho'.  I know some of my actions have been prompted by the best of intentions and ended up being misinterpreted.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 17, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> This communication-without-communicating is a dying art in the West, even (especially?) in public schools. There is the information, which is directly _taught_. Then there is the real learning, which can only be_ caught_. The latter takes time and patience, things the public seems to have little of whether for MA or children's development.


 
Nicely put.

Both of the sifus I am referring to by the way are from China one North one South one has been at this for over 30 years the other for over 50 years.

But the one from the South's teacher was from the North and North people do not talk much they expect more following and use few words to get the point across, they tend to be direct. Both are actually and they are, as you put it, very good at getting the point across without communicating per say. But I think I am beginning to take this off topic so I will stop here.



Sukerkin said:


> Nice expression there, my friend, about the distinction between information and learning. It strikes me that it is similar to the difference between intelligence and wisdom.
> 
> In my younger years, I was cursed with a surfeit of intelligence, which, tho' I was shy, made me think that I knew better than those who were decades my senior (particularly my father). As I grew up, I came to realise that tho' I might *know* more than those who had been around longer than me, I did not really *understand* more.
> 
> Where this touches on eithics is tied into the old phrase "You were too busy thinking whether you could to consider whether you should". I'm sure that that comes from a film or sci-fi series or somesuch but that doesn't make it any less an excellent precis of what an ethical martial artist should avoid.


 
I was VERY guilty of this not to long ago with my Taiji sifu, we had a bit of a falling out that came from both sides of the fence actually but my contribution to the problem was thinking I knew more than him and that I knew what I needed to learn better than he did... He had trained Taiji and ONLY Taiji for over 50 years and I had been in MA for over 30 and in Taiji as his student for about 12 years at the time... I was wrong

I would like to take this away from CMA for just a minute to mention my first Sensei (first MA teacher) in Jujitsu that time and time again impressed me with his skill at Jujitsu in class but never once told any of us about any time that he used Jujitsu outside of class. HE only told us about the times he ran away and instilled in us that fighting was a very serious thing that if you did choose to fight that you had to live with the consequences of your actions. That was over 30 years ago and I still remember these lessons. I owe a lot to my first Sensei when it comes to MA ethics.


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## AceHBK (Feb 17, 2008)

Some very good imputs put up by you all.

I know we all say actions ar elouder than words and I certainly agree but with so many kids starting MA's at such a young a ge, instructors end up being a sort of parent and have to teach some lessons to their students.  I think leading a certainly lifestyle is important but also explaining things also helps put certain things that maybe unclear into perspective.  I know at 30 sometimes I need an explanation even after watching b/c I don't totally grasp the whole idea.  Funny for me that after watching this particular tv show made me rethink a lot of things.

I know with asian MA's, ethics and morality were more of a foundation but is it now something that has gone away due to instructors not wanting the responsibility?  Part of me feels that if you take the responsibility in teaching someone MA's you must also teach them the value's that come along with it in hopes they soak it up as well.

Steel Tiger you make a good point b/c after watching different MA movies made in the U.S. as compared to Asia you see a difference in how MA's is approached.  I wonder how much of a role does religion play in it.

I think it was the ethics and morals lessons that attracted me to Chinese MA's since I was a child.  The movies that told stories of Wong Fei Hung and others using MA as a last resort and Kung Fu masters also being skilled at healing people was the embodiment of MA's.   I feel bad that these other things aren't stressed more often.


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## AceHBK (Feb 18, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Nicely put.
> I was VERY guilty of this not to long ago with my Taiji sifu, we had a bit of a falling out that came from both sides of the fence actually but my contribution to the problem was thinking I knew more than him and that I knew what I needed to learn better than he did... He had trained Taiji and ONLY Taiji for over 50 years and I had been in MA for over 30 and in Taiji as his student for about 12 years at the time... I was wrong
> 
> I would like to take this away from CMA for just a minute to mention my first Sensei (first MA teacher) in Jujitsu that time and time again impressed me with his skill at Jujitsu in class but never once told any of us about any time that he used Jujitsu outside of class. HE only told us about the times he ran away and instilled in us that fighting was a very serious thing that if you did choose to fight that you had to live with the consequences of your actions. That was over 30 years ago and I still remember these lessons. I owe a lot to my first Sensei when it comes to MA ethics.


 
You know you don't find that too much nowadays.  It is all about showing trophies and certificates when you go to a school.  I understand schools needing to do so b/c it is what impresses parents and students to join the school.


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## oxy (Feb 18, 2008)

The trick to ethics is to learn by yourself if necessary. Ethics are being taught in a variety of places and not just the traditional teacher-student relationship.

Just like your English teacher probably doesn't teach you Calculus, so shouldn't martial arts teachers be expected to (and I say nor should they) teach ethics.

There are too many people trying to teach-it-all and too many people trying to look for some all-knowing source. Never worked before and never will.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 18, 2008)

oxy said:


> Just like your English teacher probably doesn't teach you Calculus, so shouldn't martial arts teachers be expected to (and I say nor should they) teach ethics.
> 
> There are too many people trying to teach-it-all and too many people trying to look for some all-knowing source. Never worked before and never will.


But your English teacher should teach you the power of words, including syntax, semantics, etc. and what the outcome might be by changing things around. For example, the cliched _You are nowhere_. The meaning will be drastically different depending on where we place the break in the last word: is it 'no' or 'now'?

Just so, the MA teacher imho should 'teach' (model, imply, state, whatever works for teacher and student) the power of the subject she or he is teaching. This power can work for good or not so good outcomes, and some of the responsibility for this falls on the teacher.


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## Steel Tiger (Feb 18, 2008)

AceHBK said:


> Steel Tiger you make a good point b/c after watching different MA movies made in the U.S. as compared to Asia you see a difference in how MA's is approached. *I wonder how much of a role does religion play in it.*


 
How much of a role does religion play?  Its a funnny thing, before the true explosion of Christianity ethics and morality could be viewed without reference to religion.  The Greek philosophers did not phrase their thoughts in terms of gods or worship, Marcus Aurelius wrote about Stoicism without associating it intimately with religion.  

In China ethical considerations do not have to be tied to religion.  Of course, from a Buddhist perspective they are because an ethical code is central to Buddhism, but remember that Buddhism did not start life as a religion but as a moral and ethical philosophy (Siddhartha was a Hindu and recognised the existence of the Hindu gods).  Taoism also started as a philosophical understanding of the world to which were later added religious aspects following China's animistic and polytheistic beliefs.

Nowadays it seems that the question of morality is intimately connected to religion, especially in the west.  The Judeo/Christian/Islamic religious posture has usurped ethics and morality to such a degree it is almost impossible to separate them.

But with the large numbers of atheists and non-Christians abounding in the west now, and in martial arts specifically, an individual teacher can choose how to approach this subject.  He can present a position based entirely on his faith, he can present a position partially based on his faith, or he can just ignore it altogether.  Religion has an effect, but it is not the same kind of effect you might have found in the 16th or 17th centuries.  It is no longer all-pervading.





kidswarrior said:


> But your English teacher should teach you the power of words, including syntax, semantics, etc. and what the outcome might be by changing things around. For example, the cliched _You are nowhere_. The meaning will be drastically different depending on where we place the break in the last word: is it 'no' or 'now'?
> 
> Just so, the MA teacher imho should 'teach' (model, imply, state, whatever works for teacher and student) the power of the subject she or he is teaching. This power can work for good or not so good outcomes, and some of the responsibility for this falls on the teacher.


 
Have to agree with you here.  

I'm not going to improve a child's vocabulary without showing them how to use those words and, to a lesser extent, the effect of that word use.

Equally I'm not going to teach someone fighting techniques without showing how to apply them and the consequences of that application.

It may not be ethics in a formal sense but it is still ethical.


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## oxy (Feb 20, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> But your English teacher should teach you the power of words, including syntax, semantics, etc. and what the outcome might be by changing things around. For example, the cliched _You are nowhere_. The meaning will be drastically different depending on where we place the break in the last word: is it 'no' or 'now'?
> 
> Just so, the MA teacher imho should 'teach' (model, imply, state, whatever works for teacher and student) the power of the subject she or he is teaching. This power can work for good or not so good outcomes, and some of the responsibility for this falls on the teacher.



You missed the major point of my post in that if your martial arts teacher isn't teaching ethics, then learn ethics on your own (I personally can't see any other way to learn ethics, but to each their own).

My point about english and calculus teachers were to add a related point that teachers, be they of martial arts or not, shouldn't be expected to teach everything. And also that students really shouldn't expect teachers to teach everything and to shoulder the responsibility for the student's own learning.

There's two parts to education: teaching and learning. And what we are seeing in martial arts is a total lack of motivation of students to learn by adding things to what they're taught. Hence the continued creation of "martial arts" that try to teach everything and thus teaches nothing (and very badly at that).


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## kidswarrior (Feb 20, 2008)

oxy said:


> You missed the major point of my post
> 
> There's two parts to education: teaching and learning. And what we are seeing in martial arts is a total lack of motivation of students to learn by adding things to what they're taught. Hence the continued creation of "martial arts" that try to teach everything and thus teaches nothing (and very badly at that).


OK, if your point was that the student must be responsible for learning, I can get on board with that. The teacher can only lead the student to the door; the learner must decide to step through.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 20, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> OK, if your point was that the student must be responsible for learning, I can get on board with that. The teacher can only lead the student to the door; the learner must decide to step through.


 
Yup


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## JadeDragon3 (Feb 26, 2008)

This is very interesting to me because I was just in a debate about this same topic on another chat forum (DL).  I am a total believer in that not only should a martial art teacher teach a student how to fight and defend themselves but also teach the student certain ethics such as right and wrong. Most systems founders formed a "code of ethics" so to speak that it's practitioners should live by.  Most schools have some type of creed or oath that they recite before and/or after class. My school had a student creed that we recited before each class.  It went like this:

To build stength, honor, and courage within ourselves and one another.
To promote a strong and peacefull community through friendship, cooperation, and leadership.
Never misuse our knowledge or fight to achieve selfish ends.
But to develop might for right.


It is my believe that the job of a m.a. teacher is more than just teaching a person to fight. He should guide his students in being a better person. Its more than a student/teacher relationship. IMO it's like he's a father figure in a sense. My teacher was like a second dad to me. I (and other students) went to tournaments with him. We (and other students) would go out to eat after practice and/or go to the movies whenever a martial art movie would come out. We were like a big family only it was a martial art family. He would tell us students right from wrong. This is how I feel it should be. 

I had people from this other forum (DL) tell me it isn't the place of the teacher to try to tell thier students how to live and that he/she shouldn't force thier beliefs on the students.  They also said that what the teacher thinks is right and wrong may not be true or hold true for someone else. I finally just gave up on the subject.  Whats your all's oppinion on what I have said?


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## Steel Tiger (Feb 26, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> I had people from this other forum (DL) tell me it isn't the place of the teacher to try to tell thier students how to live and that he/she shouldn't force thier beliefs on the students. They also said that what the teacher thinks is right and wrong may not be true or hold true for someone else. I finally just gave up on the subject. Whats your all's oppinion on what I have said?


 
While it is true that what one person considers to be right or wrong may be different to what another person might think, there are basic considerations that go into making that determination.  If I am teaching someone methods with which they can potentially kill another person I am going to make sure that my student understands, at least at a basic level, what that might mean.  I am not going to spoon feed them my opinion of right and wrong, but I am going to give them the tools to make informed decisions for themselves.

I don't think this is telling people how to live or forcing them to conform to my version of the world, that isn't ethical afterall.  I am merely giving them the level, they can move the world as they see fit.


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## JadeDragon3 (Feb 26, 2008)

Steel Tiger said:


> While it is true that what one person considers to be right or wrong may be different to what another person might think, there are basic considerations that go into making that determination. If I am teaching someone methods with which they can potentially kill another person I am going to make sure that my student understands, at least at a basic level, what that might mean. I am not going to spoon feed them my opinion of right and wrong, but I am going to give them the tools to make informed decisions for themselves.
> 
> I don't think this is telling people how to live or forcing them to conform to my version of the world, that isn't ethical afterall. I am merely giving them the level, they can move the world as they see fit.


 
I agree with you. You (as a teacher) can give your students the tools (knowledge) to make enformed decisions.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 26, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> I had people from this other forum (DL) tell me it isn't the place of the teacher to try to tell thier students how to live and that he/she shouldn't force thier beliefs on the students. They also said that what the teacher thinks is right and wrong may not be true or hold true for someone else. I finally just gave up on the subject. Whats your all's oppinion on what I have said?


 
My very first Martial Arts teacher was Jujitsu and I think I may have already talked about him in this post, but he instilled in me a lot of the Martial Arts Ethics I have today and he did not force his Beliefs on anyone nor did he did not tell us what he thought was right or wrong but he told us things that had happened to him and they were not the stories of how he beat this guy or defeated another they were stories about when he ran away and through this he taught us how serious a real fight is. He also did form time to time explain to us the seriousness of fighting and the consequences of that but he never forced anything on us. We also all knew he was highly skilled and very few doubted his ability to defend himself or his skill at Jujitsu. 

As far as I am concerned I could not asked or found a better teacher to start my martial arts training with.


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## funnytiger (Mar 27, 2008)

One of the things that really attracted me to MA (CMA in particular) was the ethical/spiritual/moral aspects of it. It wasn't just about fighting or learning how to to fight. It was about learning *when* to fight and how to be a better person. 

Five years later in a traditional school and I'm not sure I buy it anymore. 

I've seen that kind of thinking used as a means to look down on others (a direct contradiction, I know) or witnessed the double standards that come along with it and I just don't know how I feel about it anymore.

At times it comes across as a "holier than thou" kind of thing. I don't know.

There is a part of me that longs for a school where you just come, do you thing and then leave.

-ft


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## JadeDragon3 (Mar 27, 2008)

funnytiger said:


> One of the things that really attracted me to MA (CMA in particular) was the ethical/spiritual/moral aspects of it. It wasn't just about fighting or learning how to to fight. It was about learning *when* to fight and how to be a better person.
> 
> Five years later in a traditional school and I'm not sure I buy it anymore.
> 
> ...


 
Well then go to another school if you don't feel that they are sincere in what they preach/teach. Although I feel the CMA is the best thing around due to it's philosophy and thinking.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 27, 2008)

funnytiger said:


> ethical/spiritual/moral aspects


 
I have never seen this as something overt in any CMA but that is not to say it is not there



JadeDragon3 said:


> Well then go to another school if you don't feel that they are sincere in what they preach/teach. Although I feel the CMA is the best thing around due to it's philosophy and thinking.


 
Agreed


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## Steel Tiger (Mar 27, 2008)

funnytiger said:


> One of the things that really attracted me to MA (CMA in particular) was the ethical/spiritual/moral aspects of it. It wasn't just about fighting or learning how to to fight. It was about learning *when* to fight and how to be a better person.
> 
> Five years later in a traditional school and I'm not sure I buy it anymore.
> 
> ...


 
This is one of the great dilemmas of presenting an ethical point of view, perhaps the greatest.  This is especially so for those of us of European ancestry.  We have been instilled, through our culture, to compare and contrast things, to set them against one another to see the differences.  This generally leads to conclusions of one thing being better than another.

When this is done with philosophy and ethical and moral positions you end up with the situation you described.  There is an old saying that those who know the most about a system or code of beliefs are likely to be the ones who conform to it the least.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 27, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Most systems founders formed a "code of ethics" so to speak that it's practitioners should live by. Most schools have some type of creed or oath that they recite before and/or after class.


 

I gotta disagree with you here.  I've had numerous martial arts teachers, and none have had a code of ethics or a creed to recite or oath or anything.  A lot of the arts were developed during times when life was dangerous, and one needed to defend one's very life on a regular basis. The methods were meant to do serious damage and kill, and that's it.  I don't believe these founders tried to attach any code of ethics.  I think the code of ethics is really a modern development, as society has become safer and people have had the leisure to ponder this issue.

In my opinion, you can simply learn from the teacher thru his example, assuming you even need the instruction.  I believe most reasonable adults don't need the instruction, and most kids ought to be getting the instruction from their parents.  

But at any rate, when the teacher says "so if you do THIS to the guy, it leaves his neck broken and could very well kill him, so it's serious", that's a lesson in a way even if he isn't deliberately teaching ethics.  He's shown you something deadly, and he's indicated it's serious.  You need to put two and two together and recognize that this isn't something you do to someone who bumps you in the local pub.  If you aren't smart enough to make that connection without someone spelling it out for you, then you probably need more instruction in ethics and social behavior than your sifu can give you.


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## funnytiger (Mar 27, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Well then go to another school if you don't feel that they are sincere in what they preach/teach. Although I feel the CMA is the best thing around due to it's philosophy and thinking.



It is not a lack of sincerity that is the problem, its more like a difference of opinion.

I don't SOLELY go to my school for a lesson in ethics so I don't see it necessary to leave. There are more than a handful of things that the school has to offer that keep me coming back.



			
				Steel Tiger said:
			
		

> This is one of the great dilemmas of presenting an ethical point of view, perhaps the greatest. This is especially so for those of us of European ancestry. We have been instilled, through our culture, to compare and contrast things, to set them against one another to see the differences. This generally leads to conclusions of one thing being better than another.
> 
> When this is done with philosophy and ethical and moral positions you end up with the situation you described. There is an old saying that those who know the most about a system or code of beliefs are likely to be the ones who conform to it the least.



Good post!



			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I have never seen this as something overt in any CMA but that is not to say it is not there


Family structure, fighting philosophies, respecting the founders and each other, etc. You don't find that overt?

That is more specific to TCMA, but I didn't think it was necessary to split hairs. 

Just sharing my thoughts.


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## Steel Tiger (Mar 27, 2008)

funnytiger said:


> Family structure, fighting philosophies, respecting the founders and each other, etc. You don't find that overt?
> 
> That is more specific to TCMA, but I didn't think it was necessary to split hairs.
> 
> Just sharing my thoughts.


 
I think I get where Xue is coming from because my experience is simliar.  All those things you mentioned were there but they were pushed, as it were.  Its not like we all lined up and recited an oath or set of guiding principles as some TKD and Karate schools do.

My teacher created a set of guiding principles for his school, but they were never discussed, they were part of what we did.  They did occur on the first page of the curriculum handbook, but that didn't mean we had to read them.  

My teacher's teacher was, and is, always referred to as Chan Lao Shi (Teacher Chan), but no big deal was ever made of it (to this day I still don't know Chan Lao Shi's full name, and due to certain circumstances the lineage cannot be traced so our style begins with him even though he was not the founder).  It is just part of the whole structure.  Its not something that stands out and seems added on.

The most overt thing we did from an ethical/moral/philosophical point of view was a written test requirement at one of the higher level to know something of Taoist philosophy.

I think what I am trying to say is that is CMAs the ethical considerations, whatever they may be, are rolled into the nature of Chinese style teaching so they are less obvious than with Japanese or Korean style teaching.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 27, 2008)

funnytiger said:


> ethical/spiritual/moral aspects





funnytiger said:


> Family structure, fighting philosophies, respecting the founders and each other, etc. You don't find that overt?
> That is more specific to TCMA, but I didn't think it was necessary to split hairs.


 
Not in almost 17 years of CMA have I ever gone to a class and ever has any lessons or training in any of this and that is training with multiple sifus and one for almost 14 years now.



Steel Tiger said:


> I think I get where Xue is coming from because my experience is simliar. All those things you mentioned were there but they were pushed, as it were. Its not like we all lined up and recited an oath or set of guiding principles as some TKD and Karate schools do.
> 
> My teacher created a set of guiding principles for his school, but they were never discussed, they were part of what we did. They did occur on the first page of the curriculum handbook, but that didn't mean we had to read them.
> 
> ...


 
Exactly it is, as I have said many times, intrinsic


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## funnytiger (Mar 27, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not in almost 17 years of CMA have I ever gone to a class and ever has any lessons or training in any of this and that is training with multiple sifus and one for almost 14 years now.



I'm not sure what your point is here Xue Sheng.

I never said I had a lesson on this, but I have been witness to sifus (including mine) discuss such things in great lengths with their students. 



			
				Steel Tiger said:
			
		

> I think I get where Xue is coming from because my experience is simliar. All those things you mentioned were there but they were pushed, as it were. Its not like we all lined up and recited an oath or set of guiding principles as some TKD and Karate schools do.
> 
> My teacher created a set of guiding principles for his school, but they were never discussed, they were part of what we did. They did occur on the first page of the curriculum handbook, but that didn't mean we had to read them.
> 
> ...



My reply is the same to you Steel Tiger, it may not be as overt as it is in JMAs or KMAs but as you said, it's still there. 

I'm not sure why I am having to defend my thoughts. I only posted them to share my viewpoint on the subject.

My experiences are obviously different than the two of you, but that doesn't make them wrong or exceptional. 

- ft


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 27, 2008)

funnytiger said:


> I'm not sure what your point is here Xue Sheng.
> 
> I never said I had a lesson on this, but I have been witness to sifus (including mine) discuss such things in great lengths with their students.


 
My point was to respond to your statement of



> Family structure, fighting philosophies, respecting the founders and each other, etc. You don't find that overt?
> 
> That is more specific to TCMA, but I didn't think it was necessary to split hairs.
> 
> Just sharing my thoughts.



You asked me a direct question and I responded

I am not splitting hairs and if this has been your experience that is great, it has not been mine. I am not arguing or trying to start a problem here I am just not agreeing with your statement based on my experience and if your experience is different as I have said that is great. 

It is there but it is intrinsic and generally seen or learned by example.

I would like to ask this though are the sifus discussing this to great length born raised and trained on Mainland China?


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## kidswarrior (Mar 29, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not in almost 17 years of CMA have I ever gone to a class and ever has any lessons or training in any of this and that is training with multiple sifus and one for almost 14 years now.
> 
> ...it is, as I have said many times, intrinsic


I believe this is often how good classes are run in K-12 situations as well. The culture of a class (including ethical expectations) is just caught, more than overtly taught. Takes a little more time, but also runs deeper. I realize I'm inserting this into the middle of your gentle men's discussion, but have found it true for a long time in whatever teaching setting, so thought it worth sharing.


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## JadeDragon3 (Apr 4, 2008)

Martial art ethics were always taught and stressed in the school I took classes at. My teacher John Dufresne always taught us students to be polite, curtious, and never misuse our martial art knowledge or fight for personal gain or to bully. He always stressed that it was to be used for self defense only. He would always give us students a little history of our style and also give us a little bit of knowledge on the Chinese culture. He taught us to always respect our elders. 

I don't know if this is still taught or if it is how many schools still do teach this. If it isn't still taught it should be IMO. I feel that if you are going to teach something that has the potential to hurt someone then you should give them the tools to know how to act and use those tools so that no one gets hurt unless they absolutely have to. Just my thought on it.


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