# full contact sparring?



## ralphmcpherson (Apr 20, 2012)

Firstly, please dont let this become a sport vs old school debate. Im having a few friday night beers with a mate and the subject of full contact sparring came up. Do you guys spar full contact in day to day classes or is it something done rarely or even not at all? The club my friend trains at (differnt to where I train) said he has no contact at all in sparring but the club holds a separate class each week to cater for full contact sparring (for black belts only). Is this normal? what do you guys do, would you spar full contact every lesson, once a week, once a month etc etc? Also, do you increase the level of contact as the student progresses or just limit full contact to black belts etc?


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 20, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Firstly, please dont let this become a sport vs old school debate. Im having a few friday night beers with a mate and the subject of full contact sparring came up. Do you guys spar full contact in day to day classes or is it something done rarely or even not at all? The club my friend trains at (differnt to where I train) said he has no contact at all in sparring but the club holds a separate class each week to cater for full contact sparring (for black belts only). Is this normal? what do you guys do, would you spar full contact every lesson, once a week, once a month etc etc? Also, do you increase the level of contact as the student progresses or just limit full contact to black belts etc?



Not sure what you mean by 'full contact'.  Do you mean full power?  Or do you mean actual hitting each other?

We spar in the dojo.  We use light to medium contact when wearing pads.  Sometimes we spar without pads, and then we use very light contact.  Our goal is to work our techniques and test our ability to put what we're learning to use, not to destroy each other.  In tournament, we spar in gear and point-sparring is supposed to be light-touch but can sometimes get out of control.  Continuous sparring is a bit more heavy, but still not like the karate brawls they called tournaments of days gone by.  I've seen black belt sparring tournaments get quite fierce, some heavy hitting, but again with gear on.  Hopefully still something short of 'full power', though.

There are always rules, however.  Generally, in dojo, no hitting in the face, no blind techniques, no sweeping the base leg.  No kicking in the groin, or to the back.  Throws must also assist the person down to land safely.

We're not all young men and women.  We have jobs and families.  We can't be coming to work missing teeth and with broken noses all the time.


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## StudentCarl (Apr 20, 2012)

Those of us who compete spar full power, full contact in practice. How often we do that depends on where we are in the training cycle and the timing of tournaments. Even with modern protective gear, some injuries happen. I'd say it averages out to weekly, though some weeks we might go hard 2-3 times, and some months we might only go hard once. Many drills involve contact with a partner, but that is often focused on technique or speed. Every practice we'll spend at least some time working on movement and sparring with light contact (no gear). Yellow belts and up can train with the team.

For those who aren't interested in competition, it's less common but occasionally part of regular class.


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## Manny (Apr 21, 2012)

Friday class is sparrin class, at the end of the class sambonim ask the studentes to wear the safety gear and put the chiuldren, teens and moms to do kyorugy, it's full contact in the meaning that kicks are sent with speed,power and acuracy however remeber it's WTF style and thya use that set of rules. Friday night is my night off so I don't go to the dojang however the times I've been there on friday I sparr with the young studs, and believe me thera are 3 teens well built with nice kicks and it's not easy do kyorugi with them cause they are very fast and strong so I have to fight with brains with them and there is a 24 years old kid that trains with some people of the national team once in a while and this guy is really really fast and kicks pretty nasty.

In the other hand in the clkass I teach we do light contact to medium contact the two men below my wing are office workers and some times they got scare to see a full kick gfoing to the head so we are doing right now light to medium contact only using the shin/instep pads BUT once they get use to the kicks we will increase the rithm and the power TRYING to not get use to the hogu and helmet, in other words our kyorugy will follow the WTF rules but we are going to not use the hogu and helmet.

I must tell you that even in full contact kyorugy we try to take care of our partner, I mean there is no reason to rip of the head of our clasmate or to hurt so bad to a fellow.

These days I am not doing so much sparring but this is something is changin because I don't wana rust to acumulate in the old Manny and yes maybe I am not so fast but at least I don't go backwards so that's why I am doing some sparring with my students a marroon belt and a blue belt.

Manny


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 21, 2012)

We spar without pads. Children and geup ranks do this with no contact. Dan ranks are expected to practice control and spar with touch-level contact.
We spar with pads. Children and geup ranks do this with light to moderate contact. Adults and Dan ranks spar with whatever level of contact both are comfortable with. We have one Chodanbo who does not like heavy contact. With her, it's light to moderate contact. The rest of us, while not trying to knock out or hurt eac other, use heavy contact. I wouldn't say FULL contact, because we're all certainly capable of delivering more power than this. But you have no doubt when a shot lands...

We do not use hogu, generally, though there is one older female student who chooses to wear one. A couple students  wear headgear. We do not strike the face with power.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 21, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> We spar without pads. Children and geup ranks do this with no contact. Dan ranks are expected to practice control and spar with touch-level contact.
> We spar with pads. Children and geup ranks do this with light to moderate contact. Adults and Dan ranks spar with whatever level of contact both are comfortable with. We have one Chodanbo who does not like heavy contact. With her, it's light to moderate contact. The rest of us, while not trying to knock out or hurt eac other, use heavy contact. I wouldn't say FULL contact, because we're all certainly capable of delivering more power than this. But you have no doubt when a shot lands...
> 
> We do not use hogu, generally, though there is one older female student who chooses to wear one. A couple students  wear headgear. We do not strike the face with power.


Sounds sort of similar to what we do. We have the options of pads if we want them and that varies from student to student . Some  just wear shin and instep guards, some just a hogu, but most choose not to wear anything, except for gadings where all protective gear must be worn. We dont spar till 6th gup, and coloured belts spar medium contact, but on occasion will be instructed to go full hard contact. Black belts decide between themselves what level they wish to do, most like to go pretty hard from my experience and we have one or two in our current class who go really hard. We would spar every second lesson if you averaged it out, but we can sometimes go two weeks with no sparring at all but then might spar every night for a month. Leading into grading we cut back on sparring to avoid injuries. Sparring at gradings is very hard contact, as the goal is to knock the other guy down as quick as possible. From my experience, people who spar full contact all the time seem to have a better respect for getting hit, thus they get hit less. When I did karate it was light contact so you always knew in the back of your head you couldnt really get hurt, so you tend to attempt things you just wouldnt do in full contact. Thats one of the things I really like about tkd, full contact sparring seems to be the go at most places regardless of organisation.


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## tkdgirl (Apr 24, 2012)

Hi I am new on MT but wanted to answer your post. In my adult class we spar full contact every week. Brown belt and above do not have to wear head gear. I wear head gear and shin pads ( due to a bone contusion I got due to bone to bone contact with a kick ouch!) I do not wear a chest/rib protector. I only spar men. I tell then to not go easy on me because I need to learn to take a hit/block etc.  Part of my training routine is to have someone throw the weight ball on my stomach and on each sides for a series of reps similar to what boxers do. Currently I am a blue belt which means no face contact. Tomorrow I test for brown stripe which means WHEN I earn my brown stripe tomorrow night I will then be able to make face contact and receive face contact.


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## WC_lun (Apr 25, 2012)

We don't free spar at full power often, but do it sometimes.  Normally we work on a set of three or four techniques that are reinforcing the concepts Sifu wants us to work on.  As the class goes on, we gradually increase the contact level to test what we are doing.  We do feel that we must test what we know to iron out the links.  You can't do that unless you bring up the contact level.


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## jda (Apr 25, 2012)

At our school, we spar full contact for a couple of weeks three or four times a year.  We wear the hogus and pads and we do full contact, Olympic style sparring. When we're working with the lower rank belts we tend to take it easy and adjust the sparring to their level and maybe not hit so hard, but when the black belts spar each other we tend to beat the snot out of each other. Its great fun!  In our school the general rule is hit only as hard as you want to be hit.
Jim


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 25, 2012)

StudentCarl said:


> Those of us who compete spar full power, full contact in practice. How often we do that depends on where we are in the training cycle and the timing of tournaments. Even with modern protective gear, some injuries happen. I'd say it averages out to weekly, though some weeks we might go hard 2-3 times, and some months we might only go hard once. Many drills involve contact with a partner, but that is often focused on technique or speed. Every practice we'll spend at least some time working on movement and sparring with light contact (no gear). Yellow belts and up can train with the team.
> 
> For those who aren't interested in competition, it's less common but occasionally part of regular class.



I have to say I still do not understand what it meant by 'full power' sparring. If I spar someone 'full power' and I connect with a kick, they're going to be on the ground crying.  If I connect with a 'full power' strike, I'll be crushing noses, and breaking jaws or orbital sockets.  What do you mean by 'full power'?  To me, full is full.  Meaning it's  a real fight, all I have, nothing held back.  I would not spar in such a fashion; I have no desire to hurt anyone that badly, nor can I afford to be hurt like that myself.  I understand injuires in the dojo; I've hurt my knees, gotten a bruised rib, broken a toe, that kind of thing.  But if sparring in the dojo mean eating nothing but soup through a straw for the next several months, then no.  I am an adult, I have a job and responsibilities.  I have to go to work in the morning, and that's frankly a LOT more important than how hard I can hit.


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## StudentCarl (Apr 25, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I have to say I still do not understand what it meant by 'full power' sparring. If I spar someone 'full power' and I connect with a kick, they're going to be on the ground crying.  If I connect with a 'full power' strike, I'll be crushing noses, and breaking jaws or orbital sockets.  What do you mean by 'full power'?  To me, full is full.  Meaning it's  a real fight, all I have, nothing held back.  I would not spar in such a fashion; I have no desire to hurt anyone that badly, nor can I afford to be hurt like that myself.  I understand injuires in the dojo; I've hurt my knees, gotten a bruised rib, broken a toe, that kind of thing.  But if sparring in the dojo mean eating nothing but soup through a straw for the next several months, then no.  I am an adult, I have a job and responsibilities.  I have to go to work in the morning, and that's frankly a LOT more important than how hard I can hit.



Full is full on, Bill. You understood me right. We moderate it when there are mismatches, and with teammates it's not always full power to the head. However that's what it is in tournaments, so why train different than you fight. As far as putting people on the ground crying, there are two things that diminish that: 1) we train to handle full power shots, and 2) there's a reason footwork is king in the ring--taking full power shots is the exception rather than the rule because nobody is going to sit still for you. It may sound harsh, but you build up to it through training.


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## SahBumNimRush (Apr 25, 2012)

We spar with no gear (outside of head gear and groin protectors), and we spar with light to heavy contact depending on the rank and age of the individual sparring, but never 100% power.  I have extremely limited experience with Olympic style sparring, as I haven't done it since I was a teenager.  But even then we didn't go full contact.  In fact both my student and myself were warned for excessive contact in the 1997 Louisville Junior Olympics (and it wasn't something that we were doing any harder than we trained in class).  Things obviously have changed a lot since then, but I'd be scared to get hit with someone who REALLY knows how to execute a devastating kick to the face at 100% power, headgear or no headgear.  People get knocked out easily enough with 70% full power.  We all have jobs to get up for the next day, so we don't go "full contact i.e. 100% power"  that's what breaking is for in our dojang.  

I think that "hard sparring" is a great, but I personally have reservations about hitting as hard as you can in sparring.  I foresee a great deal of liability with that, particularly with discrepancies between skill and strength in students at a smaller dojang.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 25, 2012)

StudentCarl said:


> Full is full on, Bill. You understood me right. We moderate it when there are mismatches, and with teammates it's not always full power to the head. However that's what it is in tournaments, so why train different than you fight. As far as putting people on the ground crying, there are two things that diminish that: 1) we train to handle full power shots, and 2) there's a reason footwork is king in the ring--taking full power shots is the exception rather than the rule because nobody is going to sit still for you. It may sound harsh, but you build up to it through training.



Yeah, no.  Jaws break the same way if you're trained or not.  There's no makiwara board for noses.  And I realize nobody sits still and waits to be hit.  That doesn't mean they won't be hit, even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then.  Full power means jaws and noses get broken, testicles get driven up into the tonsils.  If you guys do that, my hat is off to you; but no way would I do that.  Hey, to each their own.  I still have a little trouble believing you're putting people in the hospital on a daily basis, and I fully believe that's what 'full power' results in (especially mine).  I may not be good and I may not be fast, but I hit a ton.  I only need one lucky punch and it's liquid nose.  That really OK for a daily thing  in the dojo?


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## SahBumNimRush (Apr 25, 2012)

jda said:


> In our school the general rule is hit only as hard as you want to be hit.
> Jim



That is precisely how we practice as well, problem is, no one WANTS to be put in the hospital, so no one spars 100% power.  There are people who do, from time to time, and then they get put up against a well trained black belt that can dish out the same power, which abruptly puts a stop to it.  Again, I'm all for hard and heavy sparring, we just don't spar 100% power in our dojang.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 25, 2012)

I think injurieS are kept to a minimum as long as its an even match. Two good black belts can go at it for a few minutes and rarely, if ever, is someone seriously hurt. People who spar full contact all the time generally have great evasive and defensive skills. It's all good and well to say that if you kick someone hard they will go down crying, but just try landing that kick on a good black belt who sparse full contact all the time, it isn't easy. Olympic sparring is full contact and most bouts end with both competitors still standing.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 25, 2012)

Olympic sparring is full contact Bill, and competitors arent going to hospital "on a daily basis". And those guys hit real hard.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 25, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think injurieS are kept to a minimum as long as its an even match. Two good black belts can go at it for a few minutes and rarely, if ever, is someone seriously hurt. People who spar full contact all the time generally have great evasive and defensive skills. It's all good and well to say that if you kick someone hard they will go down crying, but just try landing that kick on a good black belt who sparse full contact all the time, it isn't easy. Olympic sparring is full contact and most bouts end with both competitors still standing.



I could be mistaken, but I do not think Olympic sparring (TKD, right?) is 'full contact' as in full power.

And no, I do not agree that injuries are kept to a minimum if two evenly-matched competitors go at it full bore.  One mistake and it's broken noses, jaws, orbital sockets, major testicular trauma, etc, etc.  Come on, that's fantasy-land stuff.  MMA fighters go all out; and they get damaged.  A lot.


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## WC_lun (Apr 25, 2012)

Safety equipment is a must.  It won't stop injury, but it will lessen how often it happens.  You also have to have someone outside the match keeping absolute control over it.  Full contact does not mean wild, crazy, non thinking.  You are still working on something...or should be.  However, injuries still happen occasionally.  This is part of the risk we take to really learn our martial art.  We do what we can to minimize risk, but in the end, this is not a game...at least not the way our school trains.   Every school is different and the goals to be pursued there are different.  Meaning the training will be different.  Nothing wrong with that, as long as you are aware.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 25, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I could be mistaken, but I do not think Olympic sparring (TKD, right?) is 'full contact' as in full power.
> 
> And no, I do not agree that injuries are kept to a minimum if two evenly-matched competitors go at it full bore.  One mistake and it's broken noses, jaws, orbital sockets, major testicular trauma, etc, etc.  Come on, that's fantasy-land stuff.  MMA fighters go all out; and they get damaged.  A lot.



Yes, Olympic sparring is full power, and a knockout wins. And, those guys kick like a mule.


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## jda (Apr 25, 2012)

Thanks, Ralph.  Olympic sparring is full contact.  I am 6'1" and 220 pounds and very strong and the guy I partner up with in class is about the same size and trust me, he kicks like a mule. Can I deliver a roundhouse kick hard enough to break your head? Probably, but why would I if I'm sparring.  I am not defending myself in a life or death situation, I am fighting in a match and the goal is to win not kill.  In a tkd tournament a knock out is an instant win so we train to that end.  We do however, take it easy on the head kicks in class.  A light tap to the head gets the message across just fine.  Most of the injuries I've gotten in class are self inflicted.  A broken foot from kicking some one in the elbow, broken toes from bad round house kicks, and broken fingers from not keeping my hands tight when blocking. We teach the kids to kick hard (they do light contact to the head) and punch hard.  With some judges thats the only way to score a point. There are rules in a tournament against certain maiming strikes; testicles, knees, ankles, mouths and noses are all off limits.  When training for a tournament we leave those out of the curriculum and save those techniques for the self defense classes.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 25, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Yes, Olympic sparring is full power, and a knockout wins. And, those guys kick like a mule.



I stand corrected - it is 'full contact', but they opponents do wear protective gear; same stuff I wear.  That still doesn't mean full power.  I think maybe there's some confusion there, and I'm sorry if I contributed to that.  I don't have a problem with full contact; full power implies hitting with all my power, and that, uh, no.  For reasons described.


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## bugatabugata (Apr 25, 2012)

In our regular practices, we do "no contact" sparring. In the Wednesday and Friday "special" practices (and in a case of "be careful what you wish for" for anyone that remembers my earlier post on sparring), it's full protective gear, full contact (head included), but no kicks to the face/groin for, well, obvious reasons. I'm pretty confident that it's not "full power" for the pro guys, otherwise someone would likely have to scrape me off the wall at the end of every class. 

But that's not really the point of sparring, is it? Isn't it supposed to be more about outmaneuvering/outlasting your opponent than about causing them pain?


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 25, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I stand corrected - it is 'full contact', but they opponents do wear protective gear; same stuff I wear.  That still doesn't mean full power.  I think maybe there's some confusion there, and I'm sorry if I contributed to that.  I don't have a problem with full contact; full power implies hitting with all my power, and that, uh, no.  For reasons described.


This does make for an interesting topic, as Im unsure of exactly where I stand on this. Are you implying, that in an olympic bout when one guy smashes the other accross the hogu at full speed and just drops his opponent, that he has not hit with his full power? Or when, in an olympic bout, someone gets ko'd and is off with the fairies for a while, that he has not been hit with full power?  Im not saying you're wrong, as Im undecided myself, but Ive seen these guys train and if its not full power, then I can assure you they are not holding much back. I agree that if one of them just stood there with his arms in the air and was kicked full power he would have all his ribs broken into little pieces, but these guys have amazing reflexes and I would say its extremely rare that anyone could get a nice clean shot on them. Because it doesnt look to me that these guys are holding much back, and this isnt a great vid to demonstrate, just the first I found -


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## leadleg (Apr 25, 2012)

People do get broken ribs if caught flat footed, broken arms while trying to block,broken noses from punches gone awry, broken fingers etc.... years ago a competitor died at the US Open, head trauma that had some medical history associated with it. Full Contact- Full Power.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 26, 2012)

leadleg said:


> People do get broken ribs if caught flat footed, broken arms while trying to block,broken noses from punches gone awry, broken fingers etc.... years ago a competitor died at the US Open, head trauma that had some medical history associated with it. Full Contact- Full Power.


Thats what Im trying to figure out. Isnt full contact and full power the same thing?


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## WC_lun (Apr 26, 2012)

I'm not seeing the distinction Bill.


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## StudentCarl (Apr 26, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I think that "hard sparring" is a great, but I personally have reservations about hitting as hard as you can in sparring. I foresee a great deal of liability with that, particularly with discrepancies between skill and strength in students at a smaller dojang.



We're careful about controlling power when there's a difference in strength and skill. The junior, though, has a green light.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 26, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> I'm not seeing the distinction Bill.



I am taking full contact to mean hits anywhere are legal.  Full power means hit them anywhere as hard as you can hit them.  At least, that's how I'm seeing it.  Also, apparently Olympic sparring is still done with padding; helmets and gloves and such.  I kind of had this mental image of 'full power' meaning bare-knuckle brawling.  Which I realize was done in the early days of karate in the US, but not so much now.  And I certainly would not be participating in it if it was.  Full respect for those who can or want to do it, but not for me; I have to go to work in the morning.


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## StudentCarl (Apr 26, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Yeah, no. Jaws break the same way if you're trained or not. There's no makiwara board for noses. And I realize nobody sits still and waits to be hit. That doesn't mean they won't be hit, even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then. Full power means jaws and noses get broken, testicles get driven up into the tonsils. If you guys do that, my hat is off to you; but no way would I do that. Hey, to each their own. I still have a little trouble believing you're putting people in the hospital on a daily basis, and I fully believe that's what 'full power' results in (especially mine). I may not be good and I may not be fast, but I hit a ton. I only need one lucky punch and it's liquid nose. That really OK for a daily thing in the dojo?



What you write helps explain why the rules have evolved as they have: nothing below the belt and no hand techniques to the face. Closed mouths help protect jaws, but yes, noses get broken sometimes. The groin shots are accidents, but they do happen sometimes. Trips to the hospital are very rare, but bruises are not. Even knockouts are pretty uncommon, but people do get their wind knocked out, and some of us have had ribs cracked. There are techniques you can use to take less impact...those aren't things you learn by going light. 

I realize it's not for everyone. Sparring in regular classes is lighter, as those folks don't spar often and are likely to hurt themselves as each other. But for those who compete in WTF type tournaments, you train the way you fight. By the way, perhaps it's also clear why those of us who do this call it fighting. Yes, it's not a streetfight with no rules, but you are in a fight and will get hurt if you don't defend yourself.


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## StudentCarl (Apr 26, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> That is precisely how we practice as well, problem is, no one WANTS to be put in the hospital, so no one spars 100% power. There are people who do, from time to time, and then they get put up against a well trained black belt that can dish out the same power, which abruptly puts a stop to it. Again, I'm all for hard and heavy sparring, we just don't spar 100% power in our dojang.



That's how we handle sparring in class too. My comments related to those who train for and spar in tournaments. We train separately, and it's at that training that we go 'hard and heavy'.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 26, 2012)

StudentCarl said:


> What you write helps explain why the rules have evolved as they have: nothing below the belt and no hand techniques to the face. Closed mouths help protect jaws, but yes, noses get broken sometimes. The groin shots are accidents, but they do happen sometimes. Trips to the hospital are very rare, but bruises are not. Even knockouts are pretty uncommon, but people do get their wind knocked out, and some of us have had ribs cracked. There are techniques you can use to take less impact...those aren't things you learn by going light.
> 
> I realize it's not for everyone. Sparring in regular classes is lighter, as those folks don't spar often and are likely to hurt themselves as each other. But for those who compete in WTF type tournaments, you train the way you fight. By the way, perhaps it's also clear why those of us who do this call it fighting. Yes, it's not a streetfight with no rules, but you are in a fight and will get hurt if you don't defend yourself.



I think it's clear we just don't use the same words.  Yes, I get bruises.  Yes, we've had a few people break ribs in the dojo, and a few broken toes.  People have been knocked down.  I got a bo through my protective goggles, shattering the lens.  One of our sensei failed to block a bo and got several stitches in his head.  We do all that stuff and those things do happen.

But we don't call it 'full contact' or 'full power'.  We're still expected to use control when we hit and kick each other.  Like I said, if we can break ribs hitting hard but using control, 'full power' means even worse damage.

I agree we do what you say you do.  I don't agree it's full power or anywhere even close to that.  I've been sat down by a side kick to the solar plexus that knocked me back several feet and took my wind away - but it wasn't even close to a full power kick.  I hate to think what a full power kick in the same spot would have done to me.

I guess that's why I'm confused.  We do what you say you do, but no, it's not full power.


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## andyjeffries (Apr 26, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I guess that's why I'm confused.  We do what you say you do, but no, it's not full power.



The difference is you're "expected to use control", we're expected to put everything in to it and explicitly not control/reduce the amount of power put in.

This is similar to ITF guys that say "we kick hard in competition too, we get people knocked out etc" - the difference is for them it's a deduction factor, for us it's a point/win.


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## StudentCarl (Apr 26, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I am taking full contact to mean hits anywhere are legal. Full power means hit them anywhere as hard as you can hit them. At least, that's how I'm seeing it. Also, apparently Olympic sparring is still done with padding; helmets and gloves and such. I kind of had this mental image of 'full power' meaning bare-knuckle brawling. Which I realize was done in the early days of karate in the US, but not so much now. And I certainly would not be participating in it if it was. Full respect for those who can or want to do it, but not for me; I have to go to work in the morning.



Thanks for clarifying Bill. One of the challenges on a forum like this is that it's easy to assume we're talking about the same thing when we're not. We wear helmets and hogus, gloves, forearm and shin pads, foot pads, cups and mouthguards. People are partnered by weight and experience level. Colored belts are only allowed light head contact, and young colored belts have no head contact. Black belts are allowed full power, but we often train with light head contact. That said, it's important to train how you fight so you're not nervous in the ring. It's important to learn how to protect your head both with movement and blocking, and it's not the same when people go light because their technique is slower and different.

I have to go to work in the morning too, and I turn 50 this year. Like all that we train, building ability in sparring happens over time. I still take more hard shots than I should, but improve with practice. There's no doubt that it's hard on the body; there aren't as many folks sparring at tournaments in my age group as the younger ones. If I was more senior it might be different, but I enjoy it and have loads to learn. 

The other thing that's worth saying is that the black belt ring is different from the colored belts'. Because of the risks, black belts fight more cautiously; opponents usually are pretty skilled and doing something stupid will get you hit hard. But everyone I know makes it to work on Monday.


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## StudentCarl (Apr 26, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I don't agree it's full power or anywhere even close to that. I've been sat down by a side kick to the solar plexus that knocked me back several feet and took my wind away - but it wasn't even close to a full power kick. I hate to think what a full power kick in the same spot would have done to me.
> 
> I guess that's why I'm confused. We do what you say you do, but no, it's not full power.



I see what you're saying but I read it differently. Was the person who knocked you back purposely using less than full power? I doubt it if you were sparring. The power that we can generate in a board break, from a great stance with great focus and carefully controlled range is what I think you mean as full power. Is that what you mean?

The reality of sparring is trying to maintain good stance and technique while moving and facing an opponent doing the same. It's harder to generate power when you're continuously adjusting and anticipating. What I mean as full power when sparring is that you are not holding back--you're trying to hit as hard as you can both to score, dominate, and break the focus of your opponent...so you can control the match and win. If I can crank you with a hard back kick, it may mess with your head and give me more openings or put you in retreat. That's the game of sport Taekwondo as a black belt.


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## SahBumNimRush (Apr 26, 2012)

StudentCarl said:


> We're careful about controlling power when there's a difference in strength and skill. The junior, though, has a green light.



Total agreement with this one.  It is the responsibility of the junior rank to "bring it."


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## SahBumNimRush (Apr 26, 2012)

This has been a very informative thread of discussion, and I appreciate Ralph, Bill, Carl and Andy weighing in on it.  From my limited experience in Olympic style sparring, the focus appears to be on speed, it does not matter so much on technique.  If I hit you as hard as I can without proper hip rotation, body mechanics it won't be as hard as a 70% maximum power technically good kick, IMHO.  

For example, look at the lack of waist/hip rotation and kinetic linking in this series of kicks:






U.S. Olympic Trials:






@2:36, the kick was certainly not 100%
@3:03, ditto
@3:29, ditto
and the whole hour and a half of footage, contains much of the same.

I'm not putting any of this down, please do not take it that way.  But from my perspective both sides are correct in their positions on full contact.  Because you are trying to make contact within a scoring zone as many times as you can during the round, I think that the rules make it easier for less "quality" of technique, er go, less power, even if you are hitting as hard as you can.  

Just my observation.

I've never been to an ITF competition, so I cannot speak to that end.  However, from my experience in the "traditional" tournament circuits, K.O.'s are not disqualification, they are a win.  Blood drawn is typically a D.Q. though, so it discourages uncontrolled and blind techniques (unless it is the BB divisions).  

Really, I wouldn't want to get hit by an Olympian with a back kick or back wheel kick, but I'm honestly not that concerned about their round kicks.  Not that they couldn't hurt you, but we spar hard enough in our dojang that I'm confident I can take one through a hogu.  Depending on how you look at it, fortunately or unfortunately, the ruleset discourages the use of side kicks, which can potentially deliver much more power than a round kick.  I say the ruleset discourages it, because it is difficult to score with it and not get hit yourself with a technically "inferior" round kick.  Again, this isn't putting down the athletes, they have to adapt the technique to suit the rules.  

I would like to emphasize that this is only my observation and limited experience sparring in this ruleset.  I've seen Olympians fight in traditional tournaments and excel with good technique and hit with devastating power, and I know they weren't going full power.  Greg and Doug Baker come to mind, both great fighters back in the day.


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## WC_lun (Apr 26, 2012)

I don't train for sports.   Kudos to those that do.  So when we go hard, everything is a target.  Thta doesn't mean common sense isn't used and if someone if very vulnerable you don't have to finish them.  Our view of fighting is that on the first exchange you get your opponent into a recovery mode.  Miss it and you have to go through another exchange to do it.  When we are testing ourselves, to know if we have trained something properly into our bodies, we go full out.  It is more dangerous and to be honest, there is some fear there.  That is the point though.  To do what we do when frightened and being attacked by someone who really wants to hit you.

Martial arts isn't a non-contact activity.  To learn to use it in a bad situation, or sporting situation, you must occasionally train in an atmosphere that reflects the end goal of your training.  If that goal is full contact, then you must accasionally train at that power level.  You do have to be smart about it, because as Bill says, we all got lives outside of the kwoon that we can't partici[ate in if we are injured.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 26, 2012)

StudentCarl said:


> I see what you're saying but I read it differently. Was the person who knocked you back purposely using less than full power? I doubt it if you were sparring. The power that we can generate in a board break, from a great stance with great focus and carefully controlled range is what I think you mean as full power. Is that what you mean?



The student who kicked me and knocked me back and onto my keister was not kicking me as hard as he could have; he has great power and I have little doubt that if he did it 'for real', my entrails would be my extrails.

I can't relate as much to your board-breaking example; we don't break boards.  We do break concrete, but we do 'soft breaks' that require focus, body mechanics, and (for those who believe in it) ki flow.  Power will actually disrupt the process.

But as an example, the person who managed  to break another student's ribs with a punch; it was accidental of course.  A hard blow, but hardly the hardest he could hit.  If he went around applying that kind of power all the time in the dojo, he'd break ribs all the time as well.  He doesn't, because he (generally) has excellent control.  Is that 'full power'?  If so, I guess we just mean different things by 'full power'.  To me, it means 'as hard as you can', not 'hard but with control'.

No offense intended.


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## StudentCarl (Apr 26, 2012)

No offense taken. Thanks for the reply.


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