# The Remains of Sodom & Gomorrah Found



## grumpywolfman (Mar 26, 2013)

[video=youtube_share;oG3QsisQrkc]http://youtu.be/oG3QsisQrkc[/video]

PeaceWithGod.net


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## grumpywolfman (Mar 27, 2013)

...


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## The Last Legionary (Mar 27, 2013)

2 things

1:


> [h=2]Historicity[/h]The historical existence of Sodom and Gomorrah is still in dispute by archaeologists, as little archaeological evidence has ever been found in the regions where they were supposedly situated.[SUP][_citation needed_][/SUP] The Bible indicates they were located near the Dead Sea (Genesis 14:1-3, 14:8-10, 34:3).
> Strabo states that locals living near Moasada (as opposed to Masada) say that "there were once thirteen inhabited cities in that region of which Sodom was the metropolis". Strabo identifies a limestone and salt hill at the south western tip of the Dead Sea, and Kharbet Usdum ruins nearby as the site of biblical Sodom.[SUP][8][/SUP]
> Archibald Sayce translated an Akkadian poem describing cities that were destroyed in a rain of fire, written from the view of a person who escaped the destruction; the names of the cities are not given.[SUP][9][/SUP] However, Sayce later mentions that the story more closely resembles the doom of Sennacherib's host.[SUP][10][/SUP]
> In 1976 Giovanni Pettinato claimed that a cuneiform tablet that had been found in the newly discovered library at Ebla contained the names of all five of the cities of the plain (Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboim, and Bela), listed in the same order as in Genesis. The names _si-da-mu_ [TM.76.G.524] and _ì-ma-ar_ [TM.75.G.1570 and TM.75.G.2233] were identified as representing Sodom and Gomorrah, which gained some acceptance at the time.[SUP][11][/SUP] However, Alfonso Archi states that, judging from the surrounding city names in the cuneiform list, _si-da-mu_ lies in northern Syria and not near the Dead Sea, and _ì-ma-ar_ is a variant of _ì-mar_, known to represent Emar, an ancient city located near Ebla.[SUP][12][/SUP] William Shea points out in 1983 that on the 'Eblaite Geographical Atlas' [TM.75.G.2231], _ad-mu-ut_ and _sa-dam_ are good readings by Pettinato and correspond to Admah and Sodom, and they are contained in a list of cities that traces a route along the shores of, or quite possibly within the Dead Sea, whose position may have since shifted along its fault.[SUP][13][/SUP] Today, the scientific consensus is reported as being that "Ebla has no bearing on ... Sodom and Gomorra."[SUP][14][/SUP]
> ...



2:


> *4.8 "Bumping" Threads:
> 
> 
> No senseless "bumping" of threads. If your thread has merit, then it will stay at the top on its own.
> ...


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 27, 2013)

"The Real Sin City: Sodom and Gomorrah" episode of Digging for the Truth.
Can't find it on youtube, but it's on Netflix.


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## elder999 (Mar 27, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> ...


It's entirely likely that the places that history has come to call "Sodom and Gomorrah" actually existed, and were destroyed in some sort of massive disaster-there are several candidates for sites, as well as disasters. In the end, though, if worship of the Roman gods had continued to overtly be the dominant religion of Europe, we might well be discussing how Jupiter (or Venus, both of whom were associated with Vesuvius) destroyed Pompeii and Herculaneum for their wickidness...


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## arnisador (Mar 27, 2013)

They were pretty wicked in Herculaneum.


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## Carol (Mar 27, 2013)

arnisador said:


> They were pretty wicked in Herculaneum.



I always forget where that falls on the periodic table...


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## grumpywolfman (Apr 1, 2013)

elder999 said:


> It's entirely likely that the places that history has come to call "Sodom and Gomorrah" actually existed, and were destroyed in some sort of massive disaster-there are several candidates for sites, as well as disasters. In the end, though, if worship of the Roman gods had continued to overtly be the dominant religion of Europe, we might well be discussing how Jupiter (or Venus, both of whom were associated with Vesuvius) destroyed Pompeii and Herculaneum for their wickidness...



What makes these sites so convincing is the fact that they are indeed located where the Bible states. The brimstone (encased sulfur) found at the sites are 98% pure compared to the 40% concentration that would be found from volcanic activity! The two ashen cities are an amazing discovery that I think you'll find interesting, if you haven't already, please take the time to watch the video ~ thank you.


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## elder999 (Apr 1, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> What makes these sites so convincing is the fact that they are indeed located where the Bible states.


Generally speaking, perhaps-but no more so than some other archaeologically likely sites.





grumpywolfman said:


> The brimstone (encased sulfur) found at the sites are 98% pure compared to the 40% concentration that would be found from volcanic activity! .


 _Brimstone_, translates as "burn stone," or, sulfur, which, for all of human history has been found in nearly pure concentrations of its elemental form at volcanic sites-hence the name......on what, then, is the "98% pure compared to the 40% concentration that would be found from volcanic activity" based, especially since it's *wrong???* Try harder.


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## arnisador (Apr 1, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> The brimstone (encased sulfur) found at the sites are 98% pure compared to the 40% concentration that would be found from volcanic activity!



Peer review, please?


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## grumpywolfman (Apr 9, 2013)

arnisador said:


> Peer review, please?



The brimstone has been tested at Galbraith Laboratories, Knoxville, Tennessee, USA, and independently by Ross Patterson in New Zealand. Sulfur is usually found in crystalline form, but this sulfur is unique to the world as it is round, white and has the consistency of compact powder. Sulfur is ordinarily 30-40% sulfur, whereas these sulfur balls are 95-98% pure sulfur. The impurities in the sulfur are metals that would add to the heat given off; they burn at 5000-6000 degrees Fahrenheit.


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## elder999 (Apr 9, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> The brimstone has been tested at Galbraith Laboratories, Knoxville, Tennessee, USA, and independently by Ross Patterson in New Zealand. Sulfur is usually found in crystalline form, but this sulfur is unique to the world as it is round, white and has the consistency of compact powder. Sulfur is ordinarily 30-40% sulfur, whereas these sulfur balls are 95-98% pure sulfur. The impurities in the sulfur are metals that would add to the heat given off; they burn at 5000-6000 degrees Fahrenheit.


Sorry, but I'm still in class, and only have the phone, but this post demonstrates a profound ignorance of geology....


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 9, 2013)

Well I would look at this thread in more detail but I am afraid I would turn into a pillar of salt so..... averting eyes and moving along


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## arnisador (Apr 9, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> The brimstone has been tested at Galbraith Laboratories, Knoxville, Tennessee, USA, and independently by Ross Patterson in New Zealand.



Have they published their results in a peer-reviewed journal?


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## elder999 (Apr 9, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> . Sulfur is usually found in crystalline form, but this sulfur is unique to the world as it is round, white and has the consistency of compact powder.


 There are several natural _allotropes_ of sulfur-even the powdery form you speak of, though, would be _crystalline_ in structure, under mere microscopic examination, never mind gas chromatography or spectroscopy. 





grumpywolfman said:


> .Sulfur is ordinarily 30-40% sulfur, whereas these sulfur balls are 95-98% pure sulfur.


 Crap, and *double crap*. :lfao: Virtually pure elemental sulfur has been found in a variety of places-especially volcanic-throughout human history.





grumpywolfman said:


> . The impurities in the sulfur are metals that would add to the heat given off; they burn at 5000-6000 degrees Fahrenheit.


Triple crap, and try harder-most metals "burn" as in oxidize and make flame-at temperatures between 2500F (iron) and 3500F (zirconium) sulfur also naturally bonds with a variety of metals: mercury and  lead come to mind, but I was thinking of iron, in your case. Iron and sulfur make _iron pyrite_, a lustrous yellow metal known as _*Fool's Gold*_, which is, after all, all that you've posted....:lfao:


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## grumpywolfman (Apr 9, 2013)

*elder999*,

Galbraith Laboratories, Inc. is a contract analytical testing laboratory with over 59 years experience in the global marketplace. Please click *here* for their contact information ~ Thank you


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## arnisador (Apr 9, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> Galbraith Laboratories, Inc. is a contract analytical testing laboratory with over 59 years experience in the global marketplace.



Peer review is the standard.


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## elder999 (Apr 9, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> *elder999*,
> 
> Galbraith Laboratories, Inc. is a contract analytical testing laboratory with over 59 years experience in the global marketplace. Please click *here* for their contact information ~ Thank you


Anyone here will tell you, elder999 is a PhD physicist, with over 30 years experience himself.and, while geology isn't my field, it is a matter of more than passing interest...in any case,I looked up the lab, and they're legit, but sulfur's....well....*sulfur*, dude......we've known about it forever, and we've learned an awful lot about it since then.....like, it's *always* crystlalline-even in "powdery form hitherto unseen by the eyes of man and clearly touched by the Hand of God..." ....:lol:...oh, and your information about metals is all wrong. Sulfur bonds with mercury-mercury has a burning temperature of 850F.....it bonds with lead, which burns at about 950F......it bonds with iron,.....all of  those medals burn pretty well in an igneous volcano-if it'll melt basalt, it'll burn most metals. (and, before I was a physicist, many people here can tell you, I worked with metal..)....sulfur is found in a virtually pure (your never before seen clearly touched by the hand of God 98%  ) EVERYWHERE ON THE PLANET. Your information is simply wrong-a _ponderous puerile pusillanimous parade of pretentions parading pseudo prophecy_ in other words...*PUKE* :barf:


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 10, 2013)

elder999 said:


> Anyone here will tell you, elder999 is a PhD physicist, with over 30 years experience himself.and, while geology isn't my field, it is a matter of more than passing interest...in any case,I looked up the lab, and they're legit, but sulfur's....well....*sulfur*, dude......we've known about it forever, and we've learned an awful lot about it since then.....like, it's *always* crystlalline-even in "powdery form hitherto unseen by the eyes of man and clearly touched by the Hand of God..." ....:lol:...oh, and your information about metals is all wrong. Sulfur bonds with mercury-mercury has a burning temperature of 850F.....it bonds with lead, which burns at about 950F......it bonds with iron,.....all of those medals burn pretty well in an igneous volcano-if it'll melt basalt, it'll burn most metals. (and, before I was a physicist, many people here can tell you, I worked with metal..)....sulfur is found in a virtually pure (your never before seen clearly touched by the hand of God 98%  ) EVERYWHERE ON THE PLANET. Your information is simply wrong-a _ponderous puerile pusillanimous parade of pretentions parading pseudo prophecy_ in other words...*PUKE* :barf:




Oh sure pull the PhD physicist on us,,I will have you know I have a minor in....aaa... physical Geography....and ummm...well...we mostly studied..aaaa...Fluvial geomorphology... in the geology part of the minor...and....aaa....nevermind :uhyeah:

However, and not that you need the backup.... but as far as my feeble mind can remember.... on sulfur.... you are correct sir


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## arnisador (Apr 10, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Oh sure pull the PhD physicist on us



Get back to me when you're a mathematician, *elder999*! Top of the heap, baby!


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## elder999 (Apr 10, 2013)

arnisador said:


> Get back to me when you're a mathematician, *elder999*! Top of the heap, baby!


Dude-I make electricity from the sun or the atom..., set machines in motion...... smash particles to make others, and play with some of the most powerful forces known.......I get mathematicians to check *my* math, or do my grunt calculations......I may even _need_ them for that, but I *make things, and make them move.....*Oh, and I probably make more.....*...Top of the heap baby*! :lol:


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## arnisador (Apr 10, 2013)

elder999 said:


> set machines in motion......



hHey--mathematically, I can set them in _perpetual _motion. Beat that!


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## Carol (Apr 11, 2013)

I managed to not fall asleep in CHON...er...I mean...organic chemistry...


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## grumpywolfman (Apr 11, 2013)

elder999,

The video below is of somebody lighting some of the brimstone they picked up from the site.

[video=youtube_share;iGdZd4BQhRk]http://youtu.be/iGdZd4BQhRk[/video]


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## grumpywolfman (Apr 11, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Oh sure pull the PhD physicist on us,,I will have you know I have a minor in....aaa... physical Geography....and ummm...well...we mostly studied..aaaa...Fluvial geomorphology... in the geology part of the minor...and....aaa....nevermind :uhyeah:
> 
> However, and not that you need the backup.... but as far as my feeble mind can remember.... on sulfur.... you are correct sir



Hmm... your link to on the sulfur is interesting. I'll have to do some research to see if there was ever salt domes present in that region (which will probably be more effort than Dr. Puke would be willing to offer).


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## CanuckMA (Apr 11, 2013)

elder999 said:


> set machines in motion



So you're George Jetson then.


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## elder999 (Apr 11, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> elder999,The video below is of somebody lighting some of the brimstone they picked up from the site.[video=youtube_share;iGdZd4BQhRk]http://youtu.be/iGdZd4BQhRk[/video]


KwLet me get this straight: I'm supposed to be impressed because sulfur _burns??_ :lfao: just :lfao:


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## elder999 (Apr 11, 2013)

elder999 said:


> KwLet me get this straight: I'm supposed to be impressed because sulfur _burns??_ :lfao: just :lfao:


  I mean, you do know what _"brimstone_" means, right:lfao: *"Burn*stone?:lfao:...Ya know what else burns?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 11, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> [video=youtube_share;oG3QsisQrkc]http://youtu.be/oG3QsisQrkc[/video]
> 
> PeaceWithGod.net



I watched the video from beginning to end.  Well produced, not cheesy, and interesting, but also likely only to be watched by people who already believe in the existence of Sodom & Gomorah and who are already believers of some stripe of Christianity.

Of course, I need no convicing of the existence of Sodom and Gomorah.  I also believe that Atlantis was an historical city as well (another city consumed by divine wrath which archaeologists have occasionally claimed to have found).

Presumably, the end portion regarding giving one's life to Christ is the point of your posting this.  As this isn't really an invitation to discuss an archaeological find, but an attempt at evalgelization, let's skip past the debate about whether or not Wyatt really found Sodom (I'll give it to him.  I'll even go so far as to say I'm reasonably swayed that he really was standing in a city cosnumed by fire and brimstone rained down from the heavens) and cut to the chase.

The real question is this: how do you reconcile the inexhaustable patience and love of God with the destruction of a city and all of its inhabitants, including children to young to be engaged in whatever wickedness the cities adult inhabitants were guilty of?

How do you reconcile the various accounts of God in the pentatuch with the portrayal of God in the NT?  Even within Genesis, you see a variations in the writing and clearly have more than one story by more than one author combined into a complete book.  You even have the shift from El to Yahweh along with accompanying shifts in personality.  Preaching the Gospel from the OT is, in my personal opinion, highly problematic. 

If one cannot evangelize based upon Jesus message of love one another, love your neigbor, love your enemy, and abundant life, throwing in the OT isn't going to help.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 11, 2013)

Carol said:


> I managed to not fall asleep in CHON...er...I mean...organic chemistry...



My brain broke in Calc III and Linear Algerbra


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## grumpywolfman (Apr 11, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I watched the video from beginning to end.  Well produced, not cheesy, and interesting, but also likely only to be watched by people who already believe in the existence of Sodom & Gomorah and who are already believers of some stripe of Christianity.
> 
> Of course, I need no convicing of the existence of Sodom and Gomorah.  I also believe that Atlantis was an historical city as well (another city consumed by divine wrath which archaeologists have occasionally claimed to have found).
> 
> ...



Thank you for watching the video. I think that you are actually the first person to actively participate.

About the video: These definitely look like destroyed cities in my opinion. It's amazing to me how intense the heat must have been to cause this - buildings and bones not covered in ash, but made into ash. I think that it's a fair description to say that the burning sulfur balls (brimstone) appear to have rained down upon the city. Xue's link to a description of sulfur leads to an interesting question - could the sulfur have come from some underground salt mound? Could volcanic activity have caused the mounds to erupt and cause all of this destruction? Of course this would take more field research and acquiring a more in depth geological survey.  

What I find intriguing, is that the location of these cities match the Biblical description, and there is some notable distance between them, and they were destroyed in the same manner at the same time. A counter argument could now be made like elder999 to say that any other religion could claim a divine punishment by their god or goddess too of this tragic, but natural phenomenon.

_"So, o.k. grumpywolfman, let's just say (hypothetically) that these are the true cities and there is a God who did this. Why?" _

"What did these people do to deserve this punishment? Did God leave this for us to see as an example - even unto the present age? Is there a lesson we are meant to learn? What is required of us to be right with God? Is there a certain way in which He wants us to live?" I believe the answers to these questions can be found within the Bible itself.

Thank you again Daniel, for taking the time to watch the video to draw your own conclusion; of course, you already know mine.


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## grumpywolfman (Apr 11, 2013)

elder999 said:


> I mean, you do know what _"brimstone_" means, right:lfao: *"Burn*stone?:lfao:...Ya know what else burns?View attachment 17835



Let me guess, I self portrait of you at the second coming of Christ?


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## elder999 (Apr 11, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> Let me guess, I self portrait of you at the second coming of Christ?


Nah, man-that "Second coming of Christ" was _yesterday_.....oh, no, wait a minute-it was *today*.....oops, no-*it's tomorrow.



*.....in any case, according to just about everything Jesus is recorded as saying, I'm ready-but your science still *sucks* to the point of virtual nonexistence-which makes it stupid...that burns....:lfao:


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## The Last Legionary (Apr 11, 2013)

irateboo

If this is a big discovery, why doesn't Wikipedia say so?  Ron "I'm nucking futz" Wyatt died in August 1999, that is to say 13, I say, *13 years ago*.
You would think that if he actually had found it, the rest of the scientific community wouldn't be "wandering the wastelands".



> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah[h=2]Historicity[/h]The historical existence of Sodom and Gomorrah is still in dispute by archaeologists, as little archaeological evidence has ever been found in the regions where they were supposedly situated. The Bible indicates they were located near the Dead Sea (Genesis 14:1-3, 14:8-10, 34:3).
> Strabo states that locals living near Moasada (as opposed to Masada) say that "there were once thirteen inhabited cities in that region of which Sodom was the metropolis". Strabo identifies a limestone and salt hill at the south western tip of the Dead Sea, and Kharbet Usdum ruins nearby as the site of biblical Sodom.[SUP][8][/SUP]
> Archibald Sayce translated an Akkadian poem describing cities that were destroyed in a rain of fire, written from the view of a person who escaped the destruction; the names of the cities are not given.[SUP][9][/SUP] However, Sayce later mentions that the story more closely resembles the doom of Sennacherib's host.[SUP][10][/SUP]
> In 1976 Giovanni Pettinato claimed that a cuneiform tablet that had been found in the newly discovered library at Ebla contained the names of all five of the cities of the plain (Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboim, and Bela), listed in the same order as in Genesis. The names _si-da-mu_ [TM.76.G.524] and _ì-ma-ar_ [TM.75.G.1570 and TM.75.G.2233] were identified as representing Sodom and Gomorrah, which gained some acceptance at the time.[SUP][11][/SUP] However, Alfonso Archi states that, judging from the surrounding city names in the cuneiform list, _si-da-mu_ lies in northern Syria and not near the Dead Sea, and _ì-ma-ar_ is a variant of _ì-mar_, known to represent Emar, an ancient city located near Ebla.[SUP][12][/SUP] William Shea points out in 1983 that on the 'Eblaite Geographical Atlas' [TM.75.G.2231], _ad-mu-ut_ and _sa-dam_ are good readings by Pettinato and correspond to Admah and Sodom, and they are contained in a list of cities that traces a route along the shores of, or quite possibly within the Dead Sea, whose position may have since shifted along its fault.[SUP][13][/SUP] Today, the scientific consensus is reported as being that "Ebla has no bearing on ... Sodom and Gomorra."[SUP][14][/SUP]
> ...



Now, you're here pushing this discredited asshat's BS so hard, one might start to think that you were him. Except he's dead. In a box. Rotting in to worm food and plant chow. So, unless his buttbox was wired, and hell has high speed, you ain't him buckyo.  What you are though smells of agenda troll. I'd say spammer, but the only thing you're pushing is crappy video, and that's not against the rules. I mean, if it were, we'd lose half the TKD folks. iratehi: So really, what is your game? iratewhe


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 12, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> Thank you for watching the video. I think that you are actually the first person to actively participate.


You're welcome.



grumpywolfman said:


> About the video: These definitely look like destroyed cities in my opinion.


Some of it certainly had the look of ashen remains of man made structures.  Some of it, though was a bit of a reach.  Where he was seeing a sphinx, I saw a big mound of .... something.  On the other hand, there are some really interesting rock formations in the American southwest where a case could be made that such things are man made and do not occur in other parts of the country, so I got the feeling that at least some of his conclusions were being drawn based more on what he wanted to see than what may have actually been there.  But the larger objects certainly had the appearance of structural remains, so I'm fine giving him the nod.

In the end though, I'm not a geologist, archaeologist, nor an historian, and I have so little vested interest in the remains of Sodom that my giving him the nod is meaningless.  I already believe that the cities existed, they have to have been somewhere, and since nobody else seems to have found them, his proposed location is as good as any other.



grumpywolfman said:


> It's amazing to me how intense the heat must have been to cause this - buildings and bones not covered in ash, but made into ash. I think that it's a fair description to say that the burning sulfur balls (brimstone) appear to have rained down upon the city. Xue's link to a description of sulfur leads to an interesting question - could the sulfur have come from some underground salt mound? Could volcanic activity have caused the mounds to erupt and cause all of this destruction? Of course this would take more field research and acquiring a more in depth geological survey.
> 
> What I find intriguing, is that the location of these cities match the Biblical description, and there is some notable distance between them, and they were destroyed in the same manner at the same time. A counter argument could now be made like elder999 to say that any other religion could claim a divine punishment by their god or goddess too of this tragic, but natural phenomenon.



Have you ever considered that Jesus' heavenly father was the same being that was worshipped as Jupiter, which actually means 'heavenly father,' but seen through a Jewish lens and either transformed into or conflated with a monotheistic god?  The Hebrew god went through changes in portrayal in the OT.  He went from El to Yahweh.  El had a wife, Asherah (also called Astarte) who was worshiped well into the prophetic period, including by King Solomon (this is recorded in 1 Kings 11:5).  According to the Biblical record, the Israelites did essentially what the US government did; left a land where their freedoms were curtailed and entered a land where their freedoms were not, displaced the native cultures, virtually wiped them out, and demonized their beliefs.  The difference was that the Caananite religion was not just that of the Caananites, but the basis of that of the Israelites religion as well (El is the same as Baal).



grumpywolfman said:


> _"So, o.k. grumpywolfman, let's just say (hypothetically) that these are the true cities and there is a God who did this. Why?" _
> 
> "What did these people do to deserve this punishment? Did God leave this for us to see as an example - even unto the present age? Is there a lesson we are meant to learn? What is required of us to be right with God? Is there a certain way in which He wants us to live?" I believe the answers to these questions can be found within the Bible itself.


There is no explanation given that would satisfy my question about why every single living being in five cities had to perish.  All women and children?  I'm sorry, but the idea of a three year old rating vaporization defies not only any secular notion of morals and justice, but also defies notions of morals and justice recorded in other parts of the Bible.  

Compare the account of Sodom and Gomorah to 2Peter 3:9, where Peter says "The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent."  

Is this really the same guy??

God who destroyed Sodom and Gomorah, killed the wife of the one righteous man he found just for taking a backward glance, ordered the genocide of the Caananites excepting the women (so that they could be raped), gave Moses a law that called for death by stoning for even some fairly trivial offenses, and burned up his own priest's son because he monkeyed around with the gold box that contained a couple of stone tablets cannot be the same god portrayed in the NT, or in certain parts of the OT. 

Either that or God is being misrepresented in part of or all of the Bible.  The god who did this is definitely *not* the God that I know through Jesus.

Also, different parts of the Bible portray different morals and ethics.  This makes sense, as it is a collection of history, mythologized history, and myth spanning hundreds of years.  Morals and ethics in the US have changed radically in just the last century.

The catch is that if the books are literally penned by God using human pens, God should always be portrayed the same.  The Bible states that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, but the Bible does not portray God in that manner.

Paul said that "All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right (New Living Translation)," but it does not say that all scripture is literal or even inerrant.  All scripture is inspired by God because all scripture is written about God.  Inspiration is inspiration.  Biblical authors were inspired by God.  Raphael was inspired by beautiful nude women.  Go figure.  

Incidentally, at the point that Paul said this, the Gospels hadn't been penned and the various letters of himself, Peter, James, Jude, John, and whoever wrote the letter to the Hebrews were not scripture.  The only scripture was the OT, which the apostles were already saying new non-Jewish believers did not have to conform to (Council of Jerusalem AD 50).  

So yes, scripture is useful to teach us what is right and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives.  Just keep in mind that when Paul said this, it was the first century, and that Mosaic law was penned hundreds of years prior to that and served as the legal basis for a nomadic people who wandered the desert.  I doubt that it was particularly unusual in its day.



grumpywolfman said:


> Thank you again Daniel, for taking the time to watch the video to draw your own conclusion; of course, you already know mine.


Yes, but the accuracy of Ron Wyatt's find honestly of little importance.  Clearly, it is being used to undergird an evengelical tool, not to further archaeology.

I hope that my response above does not come off as combative or disrespectful, as that is not my intent.


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## cdunn (Apr 12, 2013)

arnisador said:


> Peer review, please?



Purely technically, a simple lab result isn't quite subject to peer review - It is, however, subject to repetition. We also look to the lab's accreditation and soundness of methodology. Now, Galbraith is accredited for several methods that would be well suited to sulfur analysis - And can probably be reasonably trusted to get the 98% right. I would want to see the actual report from them, however. 

What's wrong, deeply, and on the face of it, however, and -is- subject to peer review, is what our dear Doctor has already covered. Burnstone ain't uncommon.


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## arnisador (Apr 12, 2013)

cdunn said:


> Purely technically, a simple lab result isn't quite subject to peer review - It is, however, subject to repetition. We also look to the lab's accreditation and soundness of methodology. Now, Galbraith is accredited for several methods that would be well suited to sulfur analysis - And can probably be reasonably trusted to get the 98% right. I would want to see the actual report from them, however.
> 
> What's wrong, deeply, and on the face of it, however, and -is- subject to peer review, is what our dear Doctor has already covered. Burnstone ain't uncommon.



Yes, not a knock against the lab.--the interpretation, the totality of the argument for the site being legit., is the big issue. Peer review it!


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## grumpywolfman (Apr 14, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Compare the account of Sodom and Gomorah to 2Peter 3:9, where Peter says "The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent."
> 
> Is this really the same guy??
> 
> ...



Thousands of years is very patient in my opinion for the final judgement of all mankind.


_"Is this really the same guy??"_


"And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; but the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." ~ Luke 17:26-33 KJV

"And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me." ~ Luke 24:44 KJV


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## grumpywolfman (Apr 14, 2013)

[video=youtube_share;eJlN9jdQFSc]http://youtu.be/eJlN9jdQFSc[/video]

PeaceWithGod.net


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## arnisador (Apr 14, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> Thousands of years is very patient in my opinion for the final judgement of all mankind.



Ragnarok is closer than you think. Are you worthy of going to Valhalla? Accept Thor as your personal lord and savior, wear a hammer pendant around your neck, and kill 3 frost giants to be sure.


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## arnisador (Apr 14, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> [video=youtube_share;eJlN9jdQFSc]http://youtu.be/eJlN9jdQFSc[/video]
> 
> PeaceWithGod.net



I'm not quite sure what the video clip, or the link, proves about S&G having been found.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 15, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> Thousands of years is very patient in my opinion for the final judgement of all mankind.


That is not an answer.  People do not live for thousands of years.  A child in Sodom being burned alive is not addressed in "the judgement of all mankind."  And even that is done on an individual basis.

Also, the idea of God ordering the Israelite warriors to take the Caananite women as plunder.... well, doing that is itself sinful.  Rape is rape.  Jesus illustrates that everyone is your neighbor.  Jesus commands us to love our enemies.  The God of the OT directs us to shun our enemies.  He directed the Israelites to go into a land that they did not posess and commit genocide.

Let's not forget that the Promised Land was not forcibly taken from the Israelites; per the Biblical record, they left of their own accord and went to Egypt because it wasn't economically depressed.  Also per the Biblical record, the Israelites didn't leave a land that they posessed; they left a land where they dwelt.  It was very clear from Genesis that the land of Israel was not a nation ruled by the Hebrews, but was a region where they happened to live along side other cultural groups.  

Prior to the Israelites arriving in Caanan, the Caananites weren't their enemies.

I'm not going to debate the justness or unjustness of a God leading his chosen people in a campaign of invasion and genocide, only to get upset with them later and subject them to invasion and scatter them.  I will only say that this portrayal of God is inconsistent with that of the NT and that the very things that God commands (invading a nation that has not attacked you is mass murder, which breaks the commandment of though shalt not kill).

For the record, I'm not criticizing the Israelites; the Irish have a similar account of a leader from the Iberian Penninsula (Milesius) leading the Milesians into Ireland and conquering the land, wresting it from the Tuatha de Danan, who agreed to give up the land in exchange for worship, and who then retreated into the Sidhe mounds.  Populations shifted, moved, conquered and displaced, and established themselves.  I don't judge ancient people by modern standards.  I am only pointing out that the God is definitely operating under a different set of parameters from the God of the OT.

So, _"Is this really the same guy??"

_Not of God is eternal and unchanging.




grumpywolfman said:


> "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; but the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." ~ Luke 17:26-33 KJV
> 
> "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me." ~ Luke 24:44 KJV


If you're interested in having an actual discussion, please discuss.  Don't spout scripture at me.  I can spout it right back.  That isn't a discussion; that is one upsmanship through Bible quotes.  I took the time to watch the video and to give you a thoughtful response.  If you are not interested in actual discussion but only in issuing warnings of God's judgement, that is fine and I can respect that, but it does place you in violation of the terms of services.

Nothing in your post above addresses anything (not a single thing) in the post of mine which you quoted.  That includes Christ's reference of a commonly known tale of the destruction of Sodom.  Until the twentieth century, nobody questioned whether or not Sodom existed or that it had been destroyed, and many cautionary tales have been told over the years using the destruction of Sodom and Gomorah.  Even if the cities never existed (I believe that they did), it doesn't diminish the value of the cautionary tale.  Do we not reference characters from fables and literature when making analogies?  This is done frequently.  The point Jesus was making was in no way dependent upon God actually being the destructive agent, or even upon the cities actual existence.  

The idea that we should turn away from sin and wrongdoing and never look back is well illustrated in Luke 17:26-33, but as you well know, this is an ideal.  Christians look back at, and indeed often fall back into, the sins of their old life.  It is the very reason for God's forgiveness, something beautifully illustrated in the NT.  However, if God is eternal and unchanging, then the question arises as to whether the portrayal of God in the OT is accurate, as that God is definitely different from the God of the NT.  

In any case, this debate between you and I is academic; I believe that Sodom and Gomorah existed, am not disputing that Ron Wyatt found the cities, believe that Jesus existed, died for the salvation of all, and that he was divine and rose from the dead on the third day.  So in that regard, you're preaching to the converted.

If you wish to evangelize people who deny the need for Jesus, then I would suggest a better starting point than Sodom and Gomorah.  I would also suggest that you look at all of the things that people have said in response to your efforts.  You have to be able to connect the Gospel you preach to the needs of the people you preach to.  If you think otherwise, look at Paul's letters.  He put a great deal of thought into making a case for Christ, being convincing, and addressing issues that were of importance to his audience.  If he didn't, his letters would have been simple regurgitations of existing scripture along with a paragraph or two of him telling you to believe it just because it's scripture.  

Incidentally, Paul also challenged his readers to evaluate what he said in light of scripture and to subject his words to critical thinking.  He specifically asked the reader to use their brain and not to simply take his word for it.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 15, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> [video=youtube_share;eJlN9jdQFSc]http://youtu.be/eJlN9jdQFSc[/video]
> 
> PeaceWithGod.net


Good song.   I also liked Elvis' rendition.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 15, 2013)

Here's the king singing Run on:


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 15, 2013)




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## arnisador (Apr 15, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


>



Speaking of which, just how is Vegas escaping judgment?


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 15, 2013)

arnisador said:


> Speaking of which, just how is Vegas escaping judgment?



The Angel of Death got comped a room at the Rampart because he's an old friend of Sam Braun?


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 15, 2013)

Bob Hubbard said:


> The Angel of Death got comped a room at the Rampart because he's an old friend of Sam Braun?



And don't forget the gambling debts at the Black Jack table


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## elder999 (Apr 15, 2013)

View attachment $las-vegas-diablos.jpg_Las Vegas??Las Vegas is *de Debbil!!!*_ :lfao:


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## arnisador (Apr 15, 2013)

You know, apart from the tail...I mean, I'm just saying...


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 16, 2013)

arnisador said:


> Speaking of which, just how is Vegas escaping judgment?


Judgement comes in many forms.  Paul refers to handing a hardened sinner over to satan.  The idea being that such a person is left to sin and the hope is that the misery they experience because of their sinful actions will cause them to turn back to God.  This is also illustrated in the parable of the Prodigal Son.

Remember that the NT portrays judgement very differently.  Calamity, illness, injury, etc. are no longer considered to be the end result of sin in one's life, while wealth and good fortune are not considered the just rewards of righteousness.  

With the exception of the book of Revelation, there is very little in the way of external judgement in the NT.  People live their lives and give an accounting after they're finished, leading to reward or punishment.  In fact, you even have a shift from that as the NT progresses.  Jesus exhorts his audience to charitable deeds, good works, and to love others, be they friend or foe, family or no, or even the same cultural group or no.  As you get past the gospels and Acts, you see some of the writers emphasize good works, all of them emphasize love. 

Then you get to Paul, who takes things a step further.  It is no longer just good enough to* do *good.  You must also* be *good.  He argues that this is impossible without the grace of Christ.  There are many interpretations of Paul's theology.  

Calvin argued that nobody can be saved, and nobody can even come to God of their own free will, so God will elect a finite number of people to be saved, while the rest, regardless of how they believe or act, will perish.  The logic is that if God didn't do this, then nobody would be saved at all.  

Most mainline Protestant and Evangelical theology involve acceptance of Christ, with the Holy Spirit calling all, but only some choosing to answer.  All who are found to be "in Christ" at the final judgement are saved, while all others perish.  

Catholic theology teaches that everything good that anyone does is due to the Holy Spirit and God, and that there is a basic element of God's commands ingrained in all.  Those who are Catholic are sanctified through belief in Christ and through the sacraments of the church, which is Christ's means of dispensing his grace.  Those who are outside of the Catholic Church can still be saved, but will face greater challenge, as they do not have the Papal-GPS to guide them.  With the doctrine of Purgatory, one who has died not fully sanctified can have that work finished in Purgatory through the grace of Christ and enter Heaven (the doctrine of Purgatory is one of the doctrines that caused the reformation; aside from being inherenly unscriptural, it also was connected to the sale of indulgences).

There are other variations besides these as well.  One factor is that most of the Bibilical support for the various doctrines on salvation are primarilly found in Paul's letters.  Given that Paul wrote the bulk of the NT, one could argue that Christianity as a formal religion was actually formulated and codified, and indeed invented by Paul.


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