# How long to complete your style?



## DanT (Jan 18, 2017)

Basically I asked my Sifu (he teaches white crane, wing chun, and northern shaolin) how long it takes to complete (attain a high level of skill and be proficient in all aspects of the system) each style. His answer was that it depends on the student, but generally an average Joe who works his butt off (minimum 20 h of training a week) could do:

-wing chun in 8 years 
-northern shaolin in 12 years
-white crane in 20 years

How about in your style?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 18, 2017)

DanT said:


> Basically I asked my Sifu (he teaches white crane, wing chun, and northern shaolin) how long it takes to complete (attain a high level of skill and be proficient in all aspects of the system) each style. His answer was that it depends on the student, but generally an average Joe who works his butt off (minimum 20 h of training a week) could do:
> 
> -wing chun in 8 years
> -northern shaolin in 12 years
> ...


In Nihon Goshin Aikido, the 20h/wk is a stretch. Because of the nature of the art, the core of it isn't easily practiced solo until you get well into the art. Thus, 20h would probably translate to 10-15 classes per week, plus a bit of solo work on strikes and stances. That's way beyond anything I've seen anyone do consistently to be able to judge by, and 10 classes a week is a brutal number of falls until you get really good at falling, then it's only very rough (I did about that level for several-month stretches a few times).

So, I'll go with 4 classes per week, plus a bit of home study - about 8-10h. At that rate, a reasonably athletic person could probably become proficient in all aspects of the system in 10-15 years. Being proficient in the basics, allowing for leveraging the non-aiki portions of the art more, would shorten that a bit, so more like 7-12 years. Depending upon how the art is viewed, this latter measure is a reasonable place for someone to teach the art, though they'll be "harder" in it than they're likely to be a few years later.


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## O'Malley (Jan 18, 2017)

There's an inside joke among aikidoka that says "ok you only need to practice 20 more years to figure out this technique".

It applies to all of our techniques, even the ones that you can kind of apply on your first try.

My teachers are 30+ years in and say that if after all this time you still feel like you have no idea of what you are doing it's perfectly normal. You learn to live with that feeling.


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## drop bear (Jan 19, 2017)

It would be 10 plus years to compete at MMA at a top level.

Wait.  20 hrs a week? That is full time plus some.


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## Kickboxer101 (Jan 19, 2017)

DanT said:


> Basically I asked my Sifu (he teaches white crane, wing chun, and northern shaolin) how long it takes to complete (attain a high level of skill and be proficient in all aspects of the system) each style. His answer was that it depends on the student, but generally an average Joe who works his butt off (minimum 20 h of training a week) could do:
> 
> -wing chun in 8 years
> -northern shaolin in 12 years
> ...


Yeah no one trains 20 hours a week


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## Tames D (Jan 19, 2017)

If it takes 20 years to become proficient in a martial art, while training 20 hours a week, then you are a 'well below average Joe'.


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## Tames D (Jan 19, 2017)

Double post.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 19, 2017)

You can't complete Kenpo, but I figure four, maybe five, lifetimes.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 19, 2017)

Tames D said:


> Double post.


If you train from, say, the age of seven, you are a badass, by the age of 27. That ain't bad.


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## Buka (Jan 19, 2017)

I think it takes a good ten years to know what the hell is up concerning fighting. That's what Ali, Oyama, Lee and all the other greats always said. I happen to think they're right. They also said it takes about thirty years, give or take, to really understand your style. I agree with that as well.

As far as no one trains twenty hours a week - say what? Every professional I ever knew trained that much....on an off week. On a regular week, you do that much by Wednesday.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 19, 2017)

I don't think you can ever "complete" any art. There's always something new, if you're doing it right. 
I think 10 years to get a good solid grounding is not unreasonable.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jan 19, 2017)

In October 2016 one of our instructors recently passed his final grading, where he had to perform all 20 of our White Crane patterns one after the other (it took him an hour to do this during the grading). He has been training White Crane since 2002. He is only one of three people who have managed this, with the other 2 being the other 2 instructors.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 19, 2017)

Tames D said:


> If it takes 20 years to become proficient in a martial art, while training 20 hours a week, then you are a 'well below average Joe'.


I don't know, Tames. If someone trained in NGA 20 hours a week, they'd be so beat up from the falls it might take them 20 years.


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## DanT (Jan 19, 2017)

Tames D said:


> If it takes 20 years to become proficient in a martial art, while training 20 hours a week, then you are a 'well below average Joe'.





Kickboxer101 said:


> Yeah no one trains 20 hours a week


How can you be so sure? I train more than 20.


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## DanT (Jan 19, 2017)

Tames D said:


> If it takes 20 years to become proficient in a martial art, while training 20 hours a week, then you are a 'well below average Joe'.


 the thing specifically about white crane is that there are 18 weapons to learn, plus 90+ hand forms, and 20 set fighting routines, plus sparring and weapons sparring and ground work. I personally don't train it, but it's a very complicated system. I have a Kung fu brother at my school who has trained it for the last 15 years and still has another third of the system to learn, and he's excellent at Kung fu.


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## DanT (Jan 19, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know, Tames. If someone trained in NGA 20 hours a week, they'd be so beat up from the falls it might take them 20 years.


20 hours a week doesn't seem that much to me, I mean it's not all falling down right? There could be footwork and other things to practice? I have a question, how do you guys break down say an hour of training?


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## DanT (Jan 19, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> In October 2016 one of our instructors recently passed his final grading, where he had to perform all 20 of our White Crane patterns one after the other (it took him an hour to do this during the grading). He has been training White Crane since 2002. He is only one of three people who have managed this, with the other 2 being the other 2 instructors.


Our white crane style (flying crane) has over 90 patterns and 18 weapons so like only two people have "completed it" in 50 years lmao.


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## DanT (Jan 19, 2017)

drop bear said:


> It would be 10 plus years to compete at MMA at a top level.
> 
> Wait.  20 hrs a week? That is full time plus some.


Top level mma fighters train 30+ h a week.


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## DanT (Jan 19, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't think you can ever "complete" any art. There's always something new, if you're doing it right.
> I think 10 years to get a good solid grounding is not unreasonable.


 i agree


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## marques (Jan 19, 2017)

For 20h/month, perhaps less than 5 years to attain a good level. But no beginner was training that much. So it was always 5+ years. No 2 people are the same, but it is a good indicative figure for most of the styles. Decades of great and regular training to attain high level.

Just indicative figures because the level is very relative. One black belt 1st Dan may be years-light from another. In some places I feel I could teach the instructor (and the instructor's instructor...) and in another places I am just the average Joe.


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## Danny T (Jan 19, 2017)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Yeah no one trains 20 hours a week


I no longer train 20 hrs a week I'm down to between 15-18
I have fighters who average 4-5 hrs a day 5 day a week plus road work on their off days.


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## Kickboxer101 (Jan 19, 2017)

DanT said:


> How can you be so sure? I train more than 20.


Bull so you don't work or go to school or anything because if you work or go to school there's no way you can train 20 hours a week


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## mograph (Jan 19, 2017)

Someone might be able to train 2 hours on the 5 weekday evenings, then 5 hours Saturday plus 5 hours Sunday to make up the 20.


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## DanT (Jan 19, 2017)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Bull so you don't work or go to school or anything because if you work or go to school there's no way you can train 20 hours a week


I study health science full time, see my girlfriend daily, and train 5pm-9:30 4 days a week. On Saturday I train 9am-1pm. I then work on Saturday and Sunday's part time at night to pay for school. and when I graduate with my degree in physical therapy I'm going to open my clinic and teach night.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 19, 2017)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Yeah no one trains 20 hours a week


Actually, I did until my son was born.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jan 19, 2017)

DanT said:


> 20 hours a week doesn't seem that much to me, I mean it's not all falling down right? There could be footwork and other things to practice? I have a question, how do you guys break down say an hour of training?



15 minutes warm-up, 30 minutes conditioning and drills, 15 minutes forms. 
15 minutes warm-up, 15 minutes conditioning and drills, 30 minutes forms.
15 minutes warm-up, 15 minutes conditioning and drills, 15 minutes forms, 15 minutes sparring. 

As a general guideline unless I want to focus on something specific for longer.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 19, 2017)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Yeah no one trains 20 hours a week





Kickboxer101 said:


> Bull so you don't work or go to school or anything because if you work or go to school there's no way you can train 20 hours a week



Plenty of people train 20+ hours per week. They're mostly either professionals (fighters/competitors/teachers/performers) who do it for a living or else young guys without much else going on in their lives except an obsession with martial arts.

I'm an un-athletic 52 year old with a desk job and I train 12-15 hours per week. I have on rare occasions put in 20 hours of training in a single week, but my body can't really heal up fast enough to handle that these days. If I won the lottery and could quit my day job, hire a personal nutritionist, massage therapist, and sports medicine doctor, and get 10 hours of sleep per night, then I could probably bump my training up to a consistent 20 hours per week.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 19, 2017)

You can actually complete a style? News to me


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 19, 2017)

DanT said:


> 20 hours a week doesn't seem that much to me, I mean it's not all falling down right? There could be footwork and other things to practice? I have a question, how do you guys break down say an hour of training?


Once you get into the core, it is either 90% falling, or you replace part of that with painful locks. In a normal class (90 minutes), I'll spend maybe 10 minutes on warm-up, and the rest is all active training. Some of this might be practicing blocks and strikes, but that's intermittent. Most of the time is spent actually throwing and locking, and the strikes become part of the overall defense during those techniques. It's not unusual for an experienced student to take several dozen falls in a single class. When we're working hard, that can easily be more 3-4 falls per minute at times (exchanged between partners). Mind you, some of the throws can be escaped with rolls, which are far less exhausting and easier on the body.

For beginning students (in their first year), there's more time spent on stances, static striking, etc. Most of that goes away, as we incorporate all of that into our overall technique. Most of the footwork training happens within the "Classical Form" or "Classical Technique", which is a 2-person single-technique short kata with specific footwork. Those still involve throwing/locking each other.

I've actually added some long-form kata to the curriculum to provide more material that can be done without falling. I did this in part so folks can practice more at home, and in part because I seem to attract students over age 40. Starting at that age, the falls are harder on the body, because new students fall "harder" than experienced students.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 19, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> You can actually complete a style? News to me


I took the OP to mean getting the complete curriculum to a reasonable level of proficiency.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 19, 2017)

DanT said:


> Basically I asked my Sifu (he teaches white crane, wing chun, and northern shaolin) how long it takes to complete (attain a high level of skill and be proficient in all aspects of the system) each style. His answer was that it depends on the student, but generally an average Joe who works his butt off (minimum 20 h of training a week) could do:
> 
> -wing chun in 8 years
> -northern shaolin in 12 years
> ...


The thing about "high level of skill" is that it's totally subjective and dependent on who you are comparing yourself to.

BJJ has been my primary art for around 17 years (although I had some exposure to it before that). I have a black belt and teach regular classes in that art. Some days, with some training partners, I feel like I do indeed have a high level of skill. Other days (especially when watching people like Demian Maia or Marcelo Garcia), I feel like should be demoted down to no higher than purple belt, maybe lower. Even on the days when I feel like I'm pretty skilled I'm still very aware that I have more potential improvement ahead of me than I could possibly make in one lifetime.

"All aspects" is also problematic. Even if I were to magically become skilled in every technique currently practiced in BJJ today, the art is constantly evolving. Practitioners are coming up with new techniques and strategies way faster than I can learn them. That's part of why, even though I appreciate the new material, I'm primarily a fundamentals oriented guy.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 19, 2017)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Bull so you don't work or go to school or anything because if you work or go to school there's no way you can train 20 hours a week


Sure someone could. 3 hours a day of training (either classes or solo work) is 21 hours.


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## marques (Jan 19, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> "All aspects" is also problematic. Even if I were to magically become skilled in every technique currently practised in BJJ today, the art is constantly evolving. Practitioners are coming up with new techniques and strategies way faster than I can learn them.


That is a new point in this thread. (If not new, at least a relevant one.) Sometimes where the art finishes is not obvious.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 19, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> "high level of skill" ...


IMO, "high level skill" is you know how to

- set up that technique,
- execute that technique,
- apply counters to that technique,
- apply counters to those counters.
- ...

The technique set up is the root.  The technique is the main trunk. The counter is the joint. The counter to counter is the branch.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 19, 2017)

marques said:


> That is a new point in this thread. (If not new, at least a relevant one.) Sometimes where the art finishes is not obvious.


In a traditional art, it may be more easily defined. For NGA, for example, there are 50 Classical Techniques that comprise the majority of the formal core curriculum. Beyond that there are about 15-20 strikes, a handful of blocks, and some miscellania (depending upon which curriculum you're looking at). That's divided up into 5 sets, so nobody gets the full core curriculum until they get through those 5 sets. There's a bit of other work that comes later in at least one curriculum, but I wouldn't consider it core to the art. So there's a distinct point at which someone has received the entire core curriculum. In some arts, the curriculum may only take 3 years (then time to become proficient). In others, the curriculum extends much longer (like some mentioned with White Crane, for instance). There's certainly a lot to work with and learn beyond that core curriculum, and I assume that's true of every art.


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## DanT (Jan 19, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> 15 minutes warm-up, 30 minutes conditioning and drills, 15 minutes forms.
> 15 minutes warm-up, 15 minutes conditioning and drills, 30 minutes forms.
> 15 minutes warm-up, 15 minutes conditioning and drills, 15 minutes forms, 15 minutes sparring.
> 
> As a general guideline unless I want to focus on something specific for longer.


Thanks for the input


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## DanT (Jan 19, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Plenty of people train 20+ hours per week. They're mostly either professionals (fighters/competitors/teachers/performers) who do it for a living or else young guys without much else going on in their lives except an obsession with martial arts.
> 
> I'm an un-athletic 52 year old with a desk job and I train 12-15 hours per week. I have on rare occasions put in 20 hours of training in a single week, but my body can't really heal up fast enough to handle that these days. If I won the lottery and could quit my day job, hire a personal nutritionist, massage therapist, and sports medicine doctor, and get 10 hours of sleep per night, then I could probably bump my training up to a consistent 20 hours per week.


This.


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## DanT (Jan 19, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> You can actually complete a style? News to me


Like I said, complete meaning having reached a decent level of skill and not having any more formal part of the system to learn.


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## DanT (Jan 19, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> In a traditional art, it may be more easily defined. For NGA, for example, there are 50 Classical Techniques that comprise the majority of the formal core curriculum. Beyond that there are about 15-20 strikes, a handful of blocks, and some miscellania (depending upon which curriculum you're looking at). That's divided up into 5 sets, so nobody gets the full core curriculum until they get through those 5 sets. There's a bit of other work that comes later in at least one curriculum, but I wouldn't consider it core to the art. So there's a distinct point at which someone has received the entire core curriculum. In some arts, the curriculum may only take 3 years (then time to become proficient). In others, the curriculum extends much longer (like some mentioned with White Crane, for instance). There's certainly a lot to work with and learn beyond that core curriculum, and I assume that's true of every art.


Thanks for the input


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 19, 2017)

DanT said:


> Like I said, complete meaning having reached a decent level of skill and not having any more formal part of the system to learn.



Then that depends on the style and the person training the style and I understand the desire to have answers to this, and I wish I had an answer, but I must confess that after 45 years in martial arts (various styles), which includes 25 years of Taijiquan (with my shifu telling me I can teach whatever I want - so no more formal training at then moment, but I am looking at other styles of Taiji as well as revisiting an old one I use to do), and probably 10 or so years of Xingyiquan (and at the moment I don't think there is anyone in my area I could get formal training from, but there are those in other areas of the continent I could that I feel are highly skilled) that I rarely feel I have a decent level of skill in any of it. But then I also know, and have been told, I am my own worst critic too.


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## marques (Jan 19, 2017)

DanT said:


> I have a question, how do you guys break down say an hour of training?


Self defence: 15 min warm-up (which was already a chaotic fighting environment), 15 min grappling (most stand up), 15 min striking, 15 min sparring.

Muay Thai: warm-up, combinations and sometimes sparring.


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## Buka (Jan 19, 2017)

Spent twenty years training well over twenty hours a week, sometimes thirty. That's not counting taking eight hours a week of instruction as well. (hard instruction from good men) As well as teaching classes. As well as competing in hundreds of competitions.Ten of those years was working a full time job, too. All the while caring for an elderly parent and two dogs.

It's why I always brought my instructors down to do seminars, all the time. Then they could teach class instead of me, and I could train in the seminar, which were not only instructional, but massive workouts. It's called time management. Took me years to set things up that way, but it worked like a Swiss watch.

Day started at 4 a.m. Usually ended at midnight or so. Hardly enough sleep, but you napped when you could.

Twenty years, bro. No time off, other than a couple rest days a week, where you would only dabble for a few hours of stretching and maybe do a thousand sit ups.

One of my instructors, Billy Blanks, made that schedule look like being unemployed. He trained all day, every day (other than when flying some place.) Never missed a day training, not on his wedding day, not when his kids were born, not when he broke a leg and was in a cast. Crazy, I know, but here's a lot of that out there.

If you think any of that is BS, you really have no idea how a lot of people train. a LOT of people.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 19, 2017)

I am going to kind of define "completing the style" as having learned all of the formal curriculum, with some reasonable level of competency.

My system has something like 16 or 18 empty hand forms, and just about the same number of weapons forms.

The problem is, different branches sometimes incorporate material from other systems, or create some of their own forms. Of course this material would only be present in those particular lineages, so it makes it difficult to definitively identify the "official" curriculum of the system.  Keep in mind, these older systems developed over time, and often the material currently in the system was developed or adopted by different people along the way.  It usually was not created in its current incarnation all at once.  So this is a natural process, and what the curriculum is now may not have been what it was 100 or 200 years ago, or what it will be 100 or 200 years from now.

I've not learned the whole system, as far as it exists within my lineage.  Having a child and some other personal obligations, cut short my time with my sifu, but I learned a lot from him, certainly enough, or more than enough.  

One ought to have developed skill and competence long before completing the system.  Once that is accomplished, it is debateable whether or not learning the rest of the system adds any real value.  My position is, the material is all just a training tool meant to help you train and develop your skill.  You don't need it all, in order to develop that skill, and once you develop that skill, learning the rest may not be important at all.

I feel that if you learn additional material, it is valuable to have.  But at the same time, if you do not learn the additional material, you aren't actually missing anything.  

That being said, I think that a dedicated student could complete the system in my lineage in somewhere between ten and fifteen years. 

Something else to keep in mind: a huge system with a never-ending curriculum is unwieldy and becomes impossible to practice.  There isn't enough time in the day or days in the year to practice it all with any real depth and meaning.  At some point ya gotta be willingto say, "I've got enough".


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## marques (Jan 19, 2017)

Buka said:


> (...) If you think any of that is BS, you really have no idea how a lot of people train. a LOT of people.


I admire that motivation. In the old times, we could say that there were not many things to do or so (being true or not), but these days... 
I train 1.5h one day, and only 48h later I am motivated for more 1.5h.  And in the past, I did not even find the time to go to the doctor to ask for the required cert to start training... God(s) bless you.


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## Buka (Jan 19, 2017)

marques said:


> I admire that motivation. In the old times, we could say that there were not many things to do or so (being true or not), but these days...
> I train 1.5h one day, and only 48h later I am motivated for more 1.5h.  And in the past, I did not even find the time to go to the doctor to ask for the required cert to start training... God(s) bless you.



I always considered myself one of the luckiest people on earth. Because, man, you can imagine how much fun that actually is. You know, if you like Martial Arts and all that.

_After_ my twenty years of full time Martial Arts, I lived here on Maui in the nineties. Used to fly to L.A every month and spend a week at Billy's house. (Blanks) I'd catch a red eye on Sunday night. Our days started by getting up at 5, s, shower and shave, get to his gym by six (which was already opened and running by his assistant instructors)

 He would teach a Tae-bo class at six, which I would take. Then at seven, I would teach a fitness class, he'd teach another Tae-bo class. At eight I'd teach a fighting class, usually consisting of grappling and street fighting. At nine I'd teach a Tae-kwon-do class to his morning students. From ten to eleven, we'd lift, every day, keying on different parts of the body (obviously). Then, sometimes we'd do road work, sometimes bag work, sometimes spar. At noon, we would leave (classes still going on, they went on all day, it was the busiest dojo, or busiest gym I have seen to this day.)

We would go the plaza next door, pick up food, whole chickens, sandwiches, salads, eat while we drove, go back to his house, fall on the couches, eat, yack and nap. At three thirty we'd shower and head back to the gym - where the main work started. We'd teach class, spar, do pushups, sit ups and planks, do Tae-bo, grapple, skip rope, teach or take Tae-kwon-Do class, fitness class, boxing class. I'd usually teach a couple of privates, (at ridiculous L.A prices, but work out along with the client)

We would leave at ten (sometimes nine thirty) He call three different restaurants on the way home and have them deliver massive amounts of food to his house. We'd gorge and talk about the day, about so and so getting better, and so and so being a lazy bum and did you see that kick, and what a great choke that was blah, blah blah. Then we'd go to bed, falling asleep in about three and a half seconds. We did that Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday - the dojo was closed on Sunday and I'd fly home. This went on for four years. Every month. The rest of the time I trained here. Fitness, Tae-bo, BJJ, taught in a Tang-Soo-do school several nights a week, worked out with some other old guys. We called ourselves "The snap, crackle pop club".

How many hours a week was that? All of them, I guess.   

To this day, it's the most fun I ever had.

EDIT - P.S.
I'll bet my bottom dollar that anyone here would have done the same thing given the opportunity to do so if your lifestyle allowed it. (Oh, yes you would!)


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## DanT (Jan 19, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Then that depends on the style and the person training the style and I understand the desire to have answers to this, and I wish I had an answer, but I must confess that after 45 years in martial arts (various styles), which includes 25 years of Taijiquan (with my shifu telling me I can teach whatever I want - so no more formal training at then moment, but I am looking at other styles of Taiji as well as revisiting an old one I use to do), and probably 10 or so years of Xingyiquan (and at the moment I don't think there is anyone in my area I could get formal training from, but there are those in other areas of the continent I could that I feel are highly skilled) that I rarely feel I have a decent level of skill in any of it. But then I also know, and have been told, I am my own worst critic too.


Interesting. What style of tai chi do you do? Yang or Chen? Also I'm interested in tai chi's curriculum, do you have multiple forms or just a few, and is the combat throw based or striking base?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 19, 2017)

Buka said:


> I always considered myself one of the luckiest people on earth. Because, man, you can imagine how much fun that actually is. You know, if you like Martial Arts and all that.
> 
> _After_ my twenty years of full time Martial Arts, I lived here on Maui in the nineties. Used to fly to L.A every month and spend a week at Billy's house. (Blanks) I'd catch a red eye on Sunday night. Our days started by getting up at 5, s, shower and shave, get to his gym by six (which was already opened and running by his assistant instructors)
> 
> ...


Sounds like fun, Buka. I think I always had too many other interests for that to happen. Not sure I ever had that exercise ethic, either.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 19, 2017)

DanT said:


> Interesting. What style of tai chi do you do? Yang or Chen? Also I'm interested in tai chi's curriculum, do you have multiple forms or just a few, and is the combat throw based or striking base?



Traditional Yang, Tung Ying Chieh lineage, multiple forms (both slow and fast), weapon forms, push hand drills, associated qigong. There is a lot of Qinna in the Yang I do. 

Chen from various people, no claimed lineage, but mostly on the Chen Zhenglei side of things, fewer forms and some push hand drills.

There are throws and strikes in both.

Taijiquan, to use it properly takes a long time. To apply it and use it improperly does not take as long.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 19, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm an un-athletic 52 year old with a desk job and I train 12-15 hours per week


I just thought about it and realized that this hasn't been true in over a year. I'm down to averaging 8-12 hours per week, which is probably more sustainable for me. The year I was awarded my BJJ black belt I bumped up my training to 12-15 hours weekly in an effort to catch up to what I felt should be the standard for the rank. It was fun, but exhausting and did take time/energy from other pursuits.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 19, 2017)

DanT said:


> Basically I asked my Sifu (he teaches white crane, wing chun, and northern shaolin) how long it takes to complete (attain a high level of skill and be proficient in all aspects of the system) each style. His answer was that it depends on the student, but generally an average Joe who works his butt off (minimum 20 h of training a week) could do:
> 
> -wing chun in 8 years
> -northern shaolin in 12 years
> ...


I don't think Jow Ga has an end point.  For example, no one that I know of has ever said if you train for X amount of time, the you would complete Jow Ga.  Proficient in all aspects would be a moving bar based on what the Sifu would consider proficient. Not once in my own mind have I thought that I would complete Jow Ga.  To become Proficient in as many techniques as possible is pretty much where I am now so I guess there won't be an end for me.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 19, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> One ought to have developed skill and competence long before completing the system. Once that is accomplished, it is debateable whether or not learning the rest of the system adds any real value. My position is, the material is all just a training tool meant to help you train and develop your skill. You don't need it all, in order to develop that skill, and once you develop that skill, learning the rest may not be important at all.


Quoted for Truth.

In Western Boxing, you can "learn" the entire curriculum in an afternoon. Becoming really _good_ at it takes many years of hard work.

In contrast, BJJ has a potentially infinite number of "techniques". I'm not sure anyone really knows all of them, since new ones are being developed practically every day. Nevertheless, I don't think anyone would accuse someone like Rickson Gracie of not having mastered the art just because he's not familiar with the latest developments in application of the Worm Guard. All those myriad techniques are just applications of a much smaller number of fundamental principles. Once you've internalized the concepts you can always invent new techniques to express them.


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## DanT (Jan 19, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Traditional Yang, Tung Ying Chieh lineage, multiple forms (both slow and fast), weapon forms, push hand drills, associated qigong. There is a lot of Qinna in the Yang I do.
> 
> Chen from various people, no claimed lineage, but mostly on the Chen Zhenglei side of things, fewer forms and some push hand drills.
> 
> ...


I'm very interested in tai chi but have little time for an extra style. Improving and learning two is enough for me rn. I really wish I could learn it because it seems so interesting to me. Striking wise are there many types of punches (hooks, straights, uppercuts, etc?) and what about kicks?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 19, 2017)

DanT said:


> I'm very interested in tai chi but have little time for an extra style. Improving and learning two is enough for me rn. I really wish I could learn it because it seems so interesting to me. Striking wise are there many types of punches (hooks, straights, uppercuts, etc?) and what about kicks?



In the Yang I do there are palm strikes, elbow strikes, back fist,  jab and a hook, but not so much. In the little Chen I know there is pretty much the same with a few added strikes. But the focus in not on striking, it is however an option. It is far from the amount of striking you see in other arts.

There are not all that many these days that are interested in Taiji as a martial art and of those that are not many want to take the time it takes to develop it as it should be. Back when I did teach I had people get offended and walk out when I mentioned it was a martial art.


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## Tames D (Jan 19, 2017)

DanT said:


> the thing specifically about white crane is that there are 18 weapons to learn, plus 90+ hand forms, and 20 set fighting routines, plus sparring and weapons sparring and ground work. I personally don't train it, but it's a very complicated system. I have a Kung fu brother at my school who has trained it for the last 15 years and still has another third of the system to learn, and he's excellent at Kung fu.


I apologize for not being clear. My comment wasn't in regards to completing a system. I was referring to being proficient in a system. Not mastering it but being proficient. I believe you and be skilled in an art without knowing the "complete" system.


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## paitingman (Jan 19, 2017)

You cannot complete taekwondo but I would agree that after about 10 years you have proficiency. By then you are probably considered a master, or even earlier who knows. 

Idk if anyone here has experience with straight razors but I sort of view it like this: 
It doesn't take much to get a shaving sharp edge (proficiency). You can get an edge to cut hair off 800 grit sandpaper if you wanted. You can use it now sure. But there's no way in a hell you should want to shave with it. Passed this point you need to refine and polish this edge and take it to higher and higher grits. (True mastery and beyond) 
Visually it's hard to see the difference and both edges will shave. But you will definitely FEEL the difference. 

How far you polish your edge(skills) and how long it takes depends on the person. But a few years will get you sharp for sure. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Flying Crane (Jan 19, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Quoted for Truth.
> 
> In Western Boxing, you can "learn" the entire curriculum in an afternoon. Becoming really _good_ at it takes many years of hard work.
> 
> In contrast, BJJ has a potentially infinite number of "techniques". I'm not sure anyone really knows all of them, since new ones are being developed practically every day. Nevertheless, I don't think anyone would accuse someone like Rickson Gracie of not having mastered the art just because he's not familiar with the latest developments in application of the Worm Guard. All those myriad techniques are just applications of a much smaller number of fundamental principles. Once you've internalized the concepts you can always invent new techniques to express them.


Bingo.  I've been saying this for a few years.  The curriculum shouldn't be about solutions.  Rather, they are about building principles, with enough examples and suggestions to then be able to come up with your own solutions regardless of what happens.

I've trained in some systems that seem to me to try and offer all of the solutions.  ALL of them.  Very cumbersome approach, in my opinion.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 19, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Bingo.  I've been saying this for a few years.  The curriculum shouldn't be about solutions.  Rather, they are about building principles, with enough examples and suggestions to then be able to come up with your own solutions regardless of what happens.
> 
> I've trained in some systems that seem to me to try and offer all of the solutions.  ALL of them.  Very cumbersome approach, in my opinion.


Agreed. In my approach to NGA, there are some "Classical Techniques" I teach as being esoteric. They teach useful principles and force the student to use them in interesting isolations that are not directly related to application (specific solutions). In helping a student solve a problem in applying a specific technique to a specific attack, I often draw on a principle taught in a different Classical Technique. The core curriculum (the Classical Techniques) is about learning the principles and developing a wide range of approaches. The more advanced the student gets, often the more they play in what I call the "grey spaces" between techniques.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 19, 2017)

The monkey king declared that Jacob Stone completed his training after only 2 months. 

Anyone?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 19, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> The monkey king declared that Jacob Stone completed his training after only 2 months.
> 
> Anyone?


Who?


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## Tames D (Jan 19, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> The monkey king declared that Jacob Stone completed his training after only 2 months.
> 
> Anyone?


I heard it was 5 weeks.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 20, 2017)

I guess I'm the only one who watches "The Librarians". Sorry, not a meaningful contribution to the thread.


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## Juany118 (Jan 21, 2017)

drop bear said:


> It would be 10 plus years to compete at MMA at a top level.
> 
> Wait.  20 hrs a week? That is full time plus some.



It's a lot of time indeed but I think @Danny T and his Sifu are taking into account that you can do a fair amount of it solo.  I can only make so many classes a week because of work but I probably spend at least an hour each day (sometimes 2 or more if I am really trying to get something down), even on class days, doing various drills some shadow boxing, others using some home apparatus, and forms.  Then class is 90 minutes long 2 days a week.  I could see someone more fanatical than making that 2 + hours I do occassionally a more consistent thing.


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## Juany118 (Jan 21, 2017)

Let me add that I agree that you never complete a system.  Once you are competent, even if you can do every technique, form and drill in your sleep, you make the art yours.  Since we constantly change as we age, that means we are also constantly, for lack of a better term, reinventing your art.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 21, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Since we constantly change as we age, that means we are also constantly, for lack of a better term, reinventing your art.


This is true. The longer that you have trained your art, the more new idea that you may come up yourself. One day when you are old, you come up some new idea. But since your tournament testing time is over. You no longer spar/wrestle. You don't have change to test your new idea. If you teach those new idea to your students, you will pass down some non-tested MA skill. Sometime we can see some unrealistic skill online video just because that. So the idea of "reinventing your art" can be a 2 edges sword.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 21, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is true. The longer that you have trained your art, the more new idea that you may come up yourself. One day when you are old, you come up some new idea. But since your tournament testing time is over. You no longer spar/wrestle. You don't have change to test your new idea. If you teach those new idea to your students, you will pass down some non-tested MA skill. Sometime we can see some unrealistic skill online video just because that. So the idea of "reinventing your art" can be a 2 edges sword.


It can also be an issue that the old martial artist is so very good at very subtle use of principles that he manages to make something work that won't be feasible for a beginner or intermediate student. He then decides this thing is wonderful and should be taught to all, and the art starts to take longer and longer to become effective.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It can also be an issue that the old martial artist is so very good at very subtle use of principles that he manages to make something work that won't be feasible for a beginner or intermediate student. He then decides this thing is wonderful and should be taught to all, and the art starts to take longer and longer to become effective.


Agree! This can be another issue too. This is why I have always started with "rhino guard" and move into "zombie guard". I will never start from "zombie guard" and by pass the "rhino guard".


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 21, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! This can be another issue too. This is why I have always started with "rhino guard" and move into "zombie guard". I will never start from "zombie guard" and by pass the "rhino guard".


I need to look those terms up. To me, they sound like made-up terms, though I know they refer to something very real. Or are you Master Ken in disguise?


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## DanT (Jan 21, 2017)

I wish I could find a better way of saying "complete the system"... I hope you all know what I mean. Sort of like anything else, you complete your formal training, but that doesn't mean you stop learning. I guess I mean, at what point would you be ready to teach, on your own, without your sifus guidance.


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## DanT (Jan 21, 2017)

I wish I could find a better way of saying "complete the system"... I hope you all know what I mean. Sort of like anything else, you complete your formal training, but that doesn't mean you stop learning. I guess I mean, at what point would you be ready to teach, on your own, without your sifus guidance.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I need to look those terms up. To me, they sound like made-up terms, though I know they refer to something very real. Or are you Master Ken in disguise?


You won't be able to find those terms anywhere online. I created these 2 terms myself.

The

- rhino guard can close (shut down) your center 100%. It's used for beginner who doesn't have skill to protect his center.
- zombie guard can open your center. It's used for those who already has the skill and be able to close his center whenever he needs to.

The main idea is during fight, if you can extend your

- right arm between your opponent's left arm and his head,
- left arm between your opponent's right arm and his head,

you can separate his arms away from his body and disable his striking ability. The CMA original term was "分手(Fen Shou) - separate hands". In order to achieve this goal, you can start from "rhino guard", or you can start from "zombie guard" depending on your skill level.

This is how the "zombie guard" looks like.


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## Juany118 (Jan 21, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is true. The longer that you have trained your art, the more new idea that you may come up yourself. One day when you are old, you come up some new idea. But since your tournament testing time is over. You no longer spar/wrestle. You don't have change to test your new idea. If you teach those new idea to your students, you will pass down some non-tested MA skill. Sometime we can see some unrealistic skill online video just because that. So the idea of "reinventing your art" can be a 2 edges sword.




I was more talking about the effects of age on the body vs coming up with new ideas.  You get less flexible, or the knee problems start so leaping kicks and or "high kicks" stop being common in your tool box.  You loose muscle mass so maybe you start focusing more on techniques that are about where you hit vs how hard you can hit.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 21, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> I was more talking about the effects of age on the body vs coming up with new ideas.  You get less flexible, or the knee problems start so leaping kicks and or "high kicks" stop being common in your tool box.  You loose muscle mass so maybe you start focusing more on techniques that are about where you hit vs how hard you can hit.


And then someone asks you why the techniques you focus on don't show up in UFC matches.


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## KangTsai (Jan 23, 2017)

NONE SHALL EVER "COMPLETE"


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 23, 2017)

KangTsai said:


> NONE SHALL EVER "COMPLETE"


That point has been clarified, and without shouting.


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## DanT (Jan 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That point has been clarified, and without shouting.


Thanks haha


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## JR 137 (Jan 23, 2017)

DanT said:


> I wish I could find a better way of saying "complete the system"... I hope you all know what I mean. Sort of like anything else, you complete your formal training, but that doesn't mean you stop learning. I guess I mean, at what point would you be ready to teach, on your own, without your sifus guidance.



I think you're saying two different things, actually.

How long does it take to complete the syllabus (not learning any new material such as a new kata)?
- Every art's syllabus ends at a different point/rank.  

How long until you can be recognized as a chief instructor?
- Every organization has different criteria for opening your own school.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 23, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I think you're saying two different things, actually.
> 
> How long does it take to complete the syllabus (not learning any new material such as a new kata)?
> - Every art's syllabus ends at a different point/rank.
> ...


Agreed. In the NGAA, for instance, the core curriculum is complete before brown belt (there's a bit more after shodan, but it's rarely seen, so not part of the core). Instructor certification (full instructor, can run a school) is at shodan. Many styles have even bigger distances between those two points.


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## wingerjim (Feb 16, 2017)

DanT said:


> Basically I asked my Sifu (he teaches white crane, wing chun, and northern shaolin) how long it takes to complete (attain a high level of skill and be proficient in all aspects of the system) each style. His answer was that it depends on the student, but generally an average Joe who works his butt off (minimum 20 h of training a week) could do:
> 
> -wing chun in 8 years
> -northern shaolin in 12 years
> ...


That is an interesting question you bring up. I think it depends completely on the opponent. I can imagine from a master's perspective or another trained individual a high level of proficiency is a "higher" level vs the proficiency needed against an average Joe. I think one who trains in most any martial art diligently for 2-3 years is more proficient that an average Joe. Now take a boxer that will one day be the World Heavy Weight champion, he may be very proficient in fighting in 1 year but likely spends 50 hrs per week training, which most of us do not have this kind of time. On the flip side I have seen students with very weak athletic skills work as hard as any other student for 2-3 years or more and just miss the mark on good adaptation and lack proficiency, so obviously they take much more time and simply never reach the higher applications.


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