# Do you need to hate your attacker?



## Joab (Mar 12, 2009)

One teacher in my past emphasized hating your attacker. Now to be fair, he was referring to somebody out on the streets who has attacked you without provocation who is trying to kill or rape you or both, a very serious situation to be sure. "You've got to hate!" he would say why we were doing our drills. This caused much tension and a feeling of being uncomfortable, even out and out anxiety on my part, and I do suffer from an anxiety, disorder, as I am a Christian, and it is clearly against the teachings of Jesus to hate anybody, even your enemy, in fact your supposed to love everyone, including your enemy. Is it necessary to hate your attacker, or can you merely be determined to stop the attack by any means necessary, running if at all possible without hating your attacker? Does hatred actually give you the edge you need to survive, or is this teacher something of a radical in his philosophy? (Well, I think he is something of a radical, but that's an aside) All opinions appreciated.


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## Empty Hands (Mar 12, 2009)

It can be helpful, but it can also make you stupid.  I think that more times than not, determination and a cool head will do you more good.


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## terryl965 (Mar 12, 2009)

Empty Hands said:


> It can be helpful, but it can also make you stupid. I think that more times than not, determination and a cool head will do you more good.


 
I would have to agree with you.


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## Omar B (Mar 12, 2009)

Emotions cloud the mind.  Don't hate, act.


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## elder999 (Mar 12, 2009)

IF you're attacked, there'll be enough in the way of "feelings" going on, like _fear_, for you to use-and learn to use. Manufactured ones-like "hate"-are not only irrelevant, but completely unnecessary.


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## MA-Caver (Mar 12, 2009)

Joab said:


> One teacher in my past emphasized hating your attacker. Now to be fair, he was referring to somebody out on the streets who has attacked you without provocation who is trying to kill or rape you or both, a very serious situation to be sure. "You've got to hate!" he would say why we were doing our drills. This caused much tension and a feeling of being uncomfortable, even out and out anxiety on my part, and I do suffer from an anxiety, disorder, as I am a Christian, and it is clearly against the teachings of Jesus to hate anybody, even your enemy, in fact your supposed to love everyone, including your enemy. Is it necessary to hate your attacker, or can you merely be determined to stop the attack by any means necessary, running if at all possible without hating your attacker? Does hatred actually give you the edge you need to survive, or is this teacher something of a radical in his philosophy? (Well, I think he is something of a radical, but that's an aside) All opinions appreciated.


He is something of a radical but what he says does make sense. Problem is hate is not like Anger which really should be the motivating fuel to fend off attacks. Hatred usually happens after the fact and not during. You can be angry with someone for something they're doing (or trying to) right at that moment but to instantly bring up hatred is something else entirely. You can already hate something before  it happens but the end result is still anger. Hatred and anger are two separate emotions but they're symbiotic of each other. You can hate a person after they've done or tried to do wrong by you... but IMO it's non-productive. Hatred can lead to all sorts of things. Racial prejudice and so on. 
As far as hating the attacker after the fact (successful or not) well that's up to you of course. I would prefer to *hate the* *act* and _pity_ the actor. I understand Christ's last words of "forgive them for they know NOT what they do"... 
Oh sure they know what they're doing but they don't understand the consequences of their actions and more n likely not given them much thought... 
Please understand that if I were attacked the guy would be in a world of hurt or dead (if necessary) but I would still feel sorry for them that they had to stoop to barbarism to obtain whatever it was that they wanted or thought they needed. My pity would not be IN the moment but afterwards. 
I'm a supporter of the death penalty and severe jail time for heinous crimes but I realize that many criminals, not all are trying to survive themselves... particularly robbers who just want your money, watch, etc. 
As for rapists/molesters/sexual predators however; my pity is almost non-existent... unless they truly desire help and desire to stop their compulsion, which is possible as I've seen during my experiences as an intern. 
Hate? "It takes too much energy to hate". Hatred is for the weak, the ignorant, the barbarians of this world. 
Get angry because it doesn't last... hatred can stretch out your whole life and destroy you as a decent human being from within.


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## chinto (Mar 12, 2009)

no,  just dispatch the attacker as quickly and disputatiously as you can.  no emotion needed, just get the job done efficiently and quickly.


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## seasoned (Mar 12, 2009)

Empty Hands said:


> It can be helpful, but it can also make you stupid. I think that more times than not, determination and a cool head will do you more good.


Excellent point. Emotions have no boundaries. If you let one out of the box, then you make room for others.


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## exile (Mar 12, 2009)

In a critical situation, what you need most of all is a way to mobilize your _will_&#8212;your unconquerable determination to force the outcome to your advantage. Can anger do that? Up to a point, I think it can. I've done some of my best work in a fury of _cold_ anger, which gave me the energy to sift through plausible-seeming stupidity and find its vulnerable points. And it's also true that someone in a physical confrontation, radiating white-hot hatred toward the attacker, will likely present a genuinely fearsome appearance that can stop the attacker in his tracks. I've been in that situation a few times in the past, and, with an intimidating weapon in my hand, it does tend to damp down a purely opportunistic attacker's game plan most marvelously.

But that said, there is the greater danger that you'll lose your way, your ability to think things through to the end, which is absolutely critical when your life is on the line. In the end, the cold clear mobilization of will without the distraction of violent emotion is probably going to give you better odds than a berserker fury. Berserkers were incredibly formidable enemies, but from what little we have in the way of records, there's reason to think that many of them died of their wounds after the battle, eh?

And if you hate you attacker enough, and have brought him to the ground, there's an excellent chance that you may damage him further in a way that will get you into way more trouble with law than you'd ever bargained on. Why give him even that kind of victory? The temptation to kick the face in of someone you hate is much greater than it is when it's someone you merely need to dispose of cleanly and move on&#8212;and so are the legal and long-term personal costs.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 12, 2009)

Joab said:


> This caused much tension and a feeling of being uncomfortable, even out and out anxiety on my part, and I do suffer from an anxiety, disorder, as I am a Christian, and it is clearly against the teachings of Jesus to hate anybody, even your enemy, in fact your supposed to love everyone, including your enemy.



Since you put it in these terms, let me try this with you.

God hates.  Yes, God is love, but God hate sin, God hates evil.  Isn't that right?

I had to ask my own priest, when I was growing up - how could God 'hate' anything, when God is love and God loves everyone?

That's when I learned about different kinds of hate.  There are different kinds of love, right?  Agape, Eros, Philia.  Well, there are different kinds of hate too.  God doesn't 'hate' sin like I hate broccoli, or like a seething anger that one person might feel for another - God hates sin like it is completely alien to Him, it must never be near Him, He will not permit it.  When God 'hates', He is rejecting.

So if you 'hate' your attacker, you're rejecting him.  He is all that you stand against, the opposite of decent the opposite of righteous, the opposite of good.  He must be fought, he must be rejected, he must be defeated.  It's not a deep seething personal dislike, it is a necessity, an expelling, even an exorcism of sorts - this must end now!  Hate your attacker like God hates sin.

Well, just a thought, anyway.  Your remark about not 'hating' as a Christian reminded me of questions I had long ago - which the answer made sense to me, so perhaps it will to you too.


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## Aikicomp (Mar 12, 2009)

Hate your attacker? Never. As others have said it clouds the mind and may become an asset for your attacker. However, you do need to stop them from hurting you.

No anger, no hatred.....just focused intensity of technique allowing you to do what you were trained to do and hate will hinder this greatly. Fear may enter your mind, but, if used and focused properly it can become a great asset and companion.

As for being Christian and defending yourself, there IS no conflict, evil must be confronted, rejected and defeated to the best of our ability. 

Bill, you put it very well.

 When I was talking to our Bishop one time and this came up in conversation his response was " Your attacker does not love you, he is trying to hurt you and you by virtue of being Christian can not and should not let evil prevail, it must always be fought... spiritually, mentally and sometimes unfortunately physically." 


Michael


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## Omar B (Mar 12, 2009)

To quote The Dragon himself "Emotional content, not anger."


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 13, 2009)

Joab said:


> One teacher in my past emphasized hating your attacker. Now to be fair, he was referring to somebody out on the streets who has attacked you without provocation who is trying to kill or rape you or both, a very serious situation to be sure. "You've got to hate!" he would say why we were doing our drills. This caused much tension and a feeling of being uncomfortable, even out and out anxiety on my part, and I do suffer from an anxiety, disorder, as I am a Christian, and it is clearly against the teachings of Jesus to hate anybody, even your enemy, in fact your supposed to love everyone, including your enemy. Is it necessary to hate your attacker, or can you merely be determined to stop the attack by any means necessary, running if at all possible without hating your attacker? Does hatred actually give you the edge you need to survive, or is this teacher something of a radical in his philosophy? (Well, I think he is something of a radical, but that's an aside) All opinions appreciated.



Honestly, I don't think you really have enough time in an attack for such a conscious concept as 'hate'.......anger is a different story, so long as it's cold anger. Disregard for their well-being is probably a better state of mind.  

The ideal mindset is one of cold deliberation coupled with extreme malice.


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## ErickUngarelli (Mar 13, 2009)

Dear Joab,

Personally, I believe it is pointless to hate your opponent.
Actually it is pointless and kinda useless to hate anyone, it just blurs your mind.

I leave the words of Col. Mikhail Ryabko:






See you soon.

Sincerely,

Erick Ungarelli


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## teekin (Mar 13, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Honestly, I don't think you really have enough time in an attack for such a conscious concept as 'hate'.......anger is a different story, so long as it's cold anger. Disregard for their well-being is probably a better state of mind.
> 
> The ideal mindset is one of* cold deliberate logic coupled with extreme malice.*
> 
> ...


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 13, 2009)

Grendel308 said:


> sgtmac_46 said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly, I don't think you really have enough time in an attack for such a conscious concept as 'hate'.......anger is a different story, so long as it's cold anger. Disregard for their well-being is probably a better state of mind.
> ...


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 13, 2009)

No. 

You need not to "hate" or "fear" you need to not even CARE.

Your own body will tell you when it's "go time" by giving you the signals of the "dump" that keeps getting mistaken as fear, but all it is is shifting gears to make ready.

This person is not an "object of hate" or a "scary, intimidatiing guy" he is *J*ust *A*nother *J*ob.


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## searcher (Mar 13, 2009)

Hate your attacker if you want, but make sure you can shut it off once the threat has been stopped.    If you can't shut it off, you can get yourself in some deep legal trouble(if you keep going after them and they are no longer a threat).


With all the hate we have in the world, do we really need to be making more?


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 13, 2009)

Instead of hating, I try to come from a place of righteous anger. Just try to make the situation feel real. If you are attacked on the street it may not be that you hate the guy, but are rather offended by him. Use that and things flow better, at least for me they do.


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## MJS (Mar 13, 2009)

Joab said:


> One teacher in my past emphasized hating your attacker. Now to be fair, he was referring to somebody out on the streets who has attacked you without provocation who is trying to kill or rape you or both, a very serious situation to be sure. "You've got to hate!" he would say why we were doing our drills. This caused much tension and a feeling of being uncomfortable, even out and out anxiety on my part, and I do suffer from an anxiety, disorder, as I am a Christian, and it is clearly against the teachings of Jesus to hate anybody, even your enemy, in fact your supposed to love everyone, including your enemy. Is it necessary to hate your attacker, or can you merely be determined to stop the attack by any means necessary, running if at all possible without hating your attacker? Does hatred actually give you the edge you need to survive, or is this teacher something of a radical in his philosophy? (Well, I think he is something of a radical, but that's an aside) All opinions appreciated.


 
I'll start my post by saying this....while I am not anti God, (I was raised in a Catholic household) I don't like to bring religion of any kind into a martial arts debate.  That being said...IMO, if someone were to attack you, and this can range from a heated verbal exchange to an actual physical confrontation, they obviously have no remorse or respect for you, therefore, I certainly am not going to have any for them.  

I think it would be more anger, as it was said by a few others, instead of hate.  Sure, hate may play a part, but I would say primarily anger...anger for what this person is attempting to do to me.


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## Deaf Smith (Mar 13, 2009)

Depends.

Blind hate? No. That makes you do stupid things.

But a cooler hate, one where you take them as the enemy and don't care if you hurt them yet you are not compelled to attack them at the first moment you can, thats' better. You sort of lose your empathy for them. Instead, with that kind of hate, you look for a good moment to attack.

But hate helps because it jacks you up. It gets the adrenaline flowing but does not immobilize you like fear does.

In fact, fear can be turned into hate. It's just a mental step you have to make.

Deaf


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## searcher (Mar 13, 2009)

Relying on any emotion to drive your defense is a huge danger.    If you need that hate or anger to get adrenal dump for pumping you up, then you need to do something else.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 14, 2009)

searcher said:


> Relying on any emotion to drive your defense is a huge danger.    If you need that hate or anger to get adrenal dump for pumping you up, then you need to do something else.


 I wouldn't go that far.......anger is a pretty useful tool, when you learn to control it......and anyone who doesn't get ANGRY when another person is trying to bite their ear off, or gouge their eyes out, probably isn't human.

That's why human beings developed anger...I mean the evolutionary process developed the adrenal state in mammals (or God, or whatever you believe)..the purpose of anger and fear is to cause the adrenal state that allows us greater strength and stamina.  

Hate really doesn't enter in to that equation because it's a higher level conscious idea.....and we really don't have time for hate in the heat of battle....anger and fear, however, are part of the mid-brain response to aggression.

In truth, those cold customers who don't appear to have fear or anger in the middle of a fight usually do......they've just learn to cool it down to the level they need it at, and dial it up and down like a rheostat through training and experience.......they know how to turn it in to COLD anger.


In fact, the coolest customers, the stone cold killers, they feel the fear and anger, too, even though you wouldn't recognize it on them......they feel it and have learned to ride it.....most of them enjoy that feeling, which is why it doesn't overwhelm them and isn't as recognizable in the same way it is in someone who is overwhelmed by the adrenal state.  Adrenaline is a drug......and like many drugs, constant exposure too it increases our tolerance too it, to the point we need higher and higher levels to experience the same response.


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## jarrod (Mar 14, 2009)

when attacked, i like to develop a feeling of hatred which i then temper with a compassionate feeling of connectedness to my attacker.  this helps me channel my aggression toward him while simultaneously keeping my spiritual values.  then i wonder where my wallet is, & what day it is.  

jf


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 14, 2009)

jarrod said:


> when attacked, i like to develop a feeling of hatred which i then temper with a compassionate feeling of connectedness to my attacker.  this helps me channel my aggression toward him while simultaneously keeping my spiritual values.  then i wonder where my wallet is, & what day it is.
> 
> jf


 You might want to take it easy with those Irish Cremes! :cheers:


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## jarrod (Mar 14, 2009)

you're right, i'm switching to bushmill's!

jf


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## exile (Mar 14, 2009)

jarrod said:


> you're right, i'm switching to bushmill's!
> 
> jf



No, lad_Jamieson's_. Not nearly as smoky in flavor (if you're going to drink Bushmill's, might as well drink Scotch...)

I do think anger, hatred or whatever can be a useful _tool_ for redirecting the adrenaline surge in responding to the threat from an attacker that for so many people takes the form of fear. A lot of writers on streetwise SD, people like Peyton Quinn and Lorne Christiansen, spend a good deal of time talking about the psychololgical and physiological effects of that surge, and cautioning that your SD methods must take into account things such as the reduced visual field, the loss of fine motor control, and other constraints on fancy complex moves, in favor of relatively simple, immediately effective and easily trained and retained responses to common assault initiations. They emphasizeand these are guys with years of serious bouncing/security experiencethat you have to channel that intense adrenaline reaction into focused, outward-directed energy to drive your counterattack. One good thing about anger, and hatred to some extend, is that it can trump the existential terror of being under deadly threat: if you can focus outward on what you really long to do, permanently, to the face, teeth and eyes of this bastard who's putting your life at risk for no good reason, you can switch from self-preservation fear mode to combat mode much more easily. 

The trick I think is to not let it get in the way, to use it to get your fighting blood up, but not to let it take over. Confidence and determination to take the fight to the attacker and put _him_ on the defensive_good_. Blind rage that causes you to forget that this is all about keeping yourself alive and healthy, not about crippling the other guy regardless of whether that's necessary to end the fight, or about rushing in too soon without watching carefully what he's doing_bad_. Classic good servant/bad master issue.


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## Jenna (Mar 14, 2009)

Hatred is not instinctive but a conscious afterthought.  Anger is the instinctive emotion and but is an outwardly directed energy and will [excepting your yogic adeptness] subject you to loss of your own control.  The preferred mindset imho is one focussing on self-preservation ie. not their destruction; YOUR survival.
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## zDom (Mar 14, 2009)

Nah, I don't even need to dislike them 

Simply a matter of:

Threat level = X

So strike THIS deep or throw THIS hard or ...


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## morph4me (Mar 14, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> No.
> 
> You need not to "hate" or "fear" you need to not even CARE.
> 
> ...


 

Beat me to it


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## Joab (Mar 14, 2009)

MJS said:


> I'll start my post by saying this....while I am not anti God, (I was raised in a Catholic household) I don't like to bring religion of any kind into a martial arts debate. That being said...IMO, if someone were to attack you, and this can range from a heated verbal exchange to an actual physical confrontation, they obviously have no remorse or respect for you, therefore, I certainly am not going to have any for them.
> 
> I think it would be more anger, as it was said by a few others, instead of hate. Sure, hate may play a part, but I would say primarily anger...anger for what this person is attempting to do to me.


 
Well, it's the conflict I had with the teacher saying "you have to hate!" and eventually resulted in my dropping out of the school. To divource this conflict from the One who I follow and worship, namely Jesus Christ, takes away the entire origin of where the conflict comes from. I am a follower of Jesus Christ, and of course His teachings against hate and pro love of everyone, including your enemy is where this conflict comes from. There would be no point in writing the post without including why I have a problem with hating anyone, including an attacker, even if they are in the wrong. I believe I could even kill an attacker if there was no other alternative, but I would pray for his soul afterwards, hate what he is doing but not hate the man himself.


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## Joab (Mar 14, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Instead of hating, I try to come from a place of righteous anger. Just try to make the situation feel real. If you are attacked on the street it may not be that you hate the guy, but are rather offended by him. Use that and things flow better, at least for me they do.


 
I like the righteous anger idea, kind of like when Jesus cleansed the Temple by driving out the money changers. I'll keep that in mind, I like that concept. Yours was the post that spoke to my heart the best, although there were many fine other posts as well, a special thanks for your post.


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## thardey (Mar 14, 2009)

Joab said:


> I like the righteous anger idea, kind of like when Jesus cleansed the Temple by driving out the money changers. I'll keep that in mind, I like that concept. Yours was the post that spoke to my heart the best, although there were many fine other posts as well, a special thanks for your post.


 

My take on it (as a fellow Christian) is that in loving your friends, and enemies, is that you can focus on being angry, or "hating" the evil that the attacker intends to do. In fact, that is not a bad place to be legally, or in the sense of dealing with the emotional fallout yourself. Your job, in defending yourself, and your loved ones, is to detroy the "evil action" that the attacker is doing. Once that action is destroyed, or stopped, or avoided, you do not need to continue to keep fighting the person himself.

That's also a kind of "hate" that you don't have to "turn on" in the moment -- it's the cool, deliberate kind of hate that others have been talking about. It's not right to harbor hate towards people, but it's fine to hate actions that hurt people, or, more importantly, actions that separate and destroy relationships.

That is, hate the attack, not the attacker.


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## Joab (Mar 14, 2009)

thardey said:


> My take on it (as a fellow Christian) is that in loving your friends, and enemies, is that you can focus on being angry, or "hating" the evil that the attacker intends to do. In fact, that is not a bad place to be legally, or in the sense of dealing with the emotional fallout yourself. Your job, in defending yourself, and your loved ones, is to detroy the "evil action" that the attacker is doing. Once that action is destroyed, or stopped, or avoided, you do not need to continue to keep fighting the person himself.
> 
> That's also a kind of "hate" that you don't have to "turn on" in the moment -- it's the cool, deliberate kind of hate that others have been talking about. It's not right to harbor hate towards people, but it's fine to hate actions that hurt people, or, more importantly, actions that separate and destroy relationships.
> 
> That is, hate the attack, not the attacker.


 
Amen!


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## MA-Caver (Mar 14, 2009)

thardey said:


> That is, hate the attack, not the attacker.


Yep, totally agree.


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## Guardian (Mar 14, 2009)

Not hate, I'm just going to do as much damage to them as I possibly can.  Has nothing to do with hate or love in my book.


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## Josh Oakley (Mar 14, 2009)

actually, I choose to love my enemy. I do everything to avoid a fight, and when I'm in a fight I do as little damage as possible to get out of it. I only kill if actually necessary.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 15, 2009)

Jenna said:


> Hatred is not instinctive but a conscious afterthought.  Anger is the instinctive emotion and but is an outwardly directed energy and will [excepting your yogic adeptness] subject you to loss of your own control.  The preferred mindset imho is one focussing on self-preservation ie. not their destruction; YOUR survival.
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 I respect the opinion, but I humbly believe just the opposite.  There are situations where aggression will save you, when caution won't.  Meaning that thoughts of your own survival, and whether or not you will get through, will make you hesitate and ensure just the opposite.

There are times when following Bruce Lee's statement apply.....



> "Forget about winning and losing; forget about pride and pain. Let your opponent graze your skin and you smash into his flesh; let him smash into your flesh and you fracture his bones; let him fracture your bones and you take his life. Do not be concerned with escaping safely - lay your life before him." -Bruce Lee



Worrying about surviving makes you reactive.......some situations call for being pro-active, aggressive.


It's a lot like race car driving or poisonous snake handling......if you're focusing on NOT hitting the wall or NOT getting bitten, you probably WILL hit the wall or you WILL get bitten.  That's why so many martial arts spend so much time focusing on 'No Mind'.........fixating on the possible outcomes slows the response.

Again, there are times when aggression will save you when caution won't........fortunately for most folks in our society they are likely to never be confronted by those situations, because we are a relatively safe society.


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## MA-Caver (Mar 15, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Again, there are times when aggression will save you when caution won't........fortunately for most folks in our society they are likely to never be confronted by those situations, because we are a relatively safe society.


Yeah, true... but for how long?


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## Jenna (Mar 15, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I respect the opinion, but I humbly believe just the opposite.  There are situations where aggression will save you, when caution won't.  Meaning that thoughts of your own survival, and whether or not you will get through, will make you hesitate and ensure just the opposite.



I do not disagree with your opinion and but I think there is a delineation between and between anger and aggression.  The aggression that you refer to, I agree is necessary, whereas the anger that I referred to is detrimental to the focussed mindset or the calm-yet-alert mind that you alluded to.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## MJS (Mar 15, 2009)

Joab said:


> Well, it's the conflict I had with the teacher saying "you have to hate!" and eventually resulted in my dropping out of the school. To divource this conflict from the One who I follow and worship, namely Jesus Christ, takes away the entire origin of where the conflict comes from. I am a follower of Jesus Christ, and of course His teachings against hate and pro love of everyone, including your enemy is where this conflict comes from. There would be no point in writing the post without including why I have a problem with hating anyone, including an attacker, even if they are in the wrong. I believe I could even kill an attacker if there was no other alternative, but I would pray for his soul afterwards, hate what he is doing but not hate the man himself.


 
If we really want to get technical about this, then we really should not be fighting at all or training for anything more than inner peace and the history and enjoyment of the art, nothing more.  I say this, because if we can't bring ourselves to hate or be angry at someone, then instead of trading blows, we should just be as peaceful as possible, always resolve any conflict with kind words instead of angry ones, etc.

IMHO, and this goes back to what I've said in thread about prison and reform...if people really wanted to reform, they'd never end up back behind bars.  We all control how we are, and what path we want to take.  

That being said, if someone chooses to take the wrong path, and attempt to inflict harm upon me or someone else, then no, I do not feel any remorse for them, nor do I feel sorry for anything that happens to them, either by me or someone else.  Hopefully the guy would think back and reflect back on what he did, and maybe think twice about doing the same thing again, but no, I'm not going to pray for him and hope that he gets better.  He's the one that needs to do the praying, not me.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 15, 2009)

I think Hate can have a place after a conflict.

If you feel sorry for your opponent, for what you have done to him/her, the outcome of the battle and whatnot... who's to say that if it happens again, you will not hesitate... and wind up injured, dead, or Scarred mentally in a worse way.

Hating someone for what they did/tried to do is a good defense mechanism againts that guilt that we build "post conflict"... as are feelings of contempt, disgust, and self-rightousness.

I think these things have their place... I just dont think they are DURRING combat.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 16, 2009)

Jenna said:


> I do not disagree with your opinion and but I think there is a delineation between and between anger and aggression.  The aggression that you refer to, I agree is necessary, whereas the anger that I referred to is detrimental to the focussed mindset or the calm-yet-alert mind that you alluded to.
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 Anger can certainly take over and cloud judgment, especially for those unused to dealing with the effects of anger and aggression.  

For those who can control the adrenal response, who have learned to do it through training and experience, it's an extremely powerful biological tool.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 16, 2009)

It's kind of a contradiction........those who live their lives with a high degree of caution avoid the kind of situations that tend to get them killed.  Ironically, however, their caution is MORE likely to get them killed if they accidentally find themselves in dangerous situations that require aggressive action.

Conversely, those who have a more aggressive bent tend to find themselves in situations that are more likely to get them hurt or killed........but are, likewise, more capable of surviving those types of situations.

And this paradox is the source of many arguments about what is the best suggestion for self-defense and survival.......folks of either camp disagree with the other......but both are correct......at different times.


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## exile (Mar 16, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> And this paradox is the source of many arguments about what is the best suggestion for self-defense and survival.......folks of either camp disagree with the other......but both are correct......at different times.



And sometimes the same person can be in both camps, at different times. You see this in, of all places, _Hamlet_, where early in the play Hamlet, praising his loyal, stoic friend Horatio, says,

_Give me that man that is not passion's slave,
And I will wear him in my heart's core, ay, in my heart of hearts_.

&#8212;i.e., that Horatio's careful control of his feelings, his lack of impulsiveness and emotional extravagance ('passion'), is a great and endearing character strength. The funny thing is that much later in the play, after the cock-up with Rosencrantz and Guildenstern and the pirates that leaves Hamlet free and them dead, he tells this very same Horatio,

_And praised be rashness for it&#8212;let us know, 
Our indiscretion sometimes serves us well, 
When our deep plots do pall..._

seeming to endorse the view that impulsive reaction trumps reasoned, careful planning. 

Mind you, it's hard to say from the outcome which view was correct.... _neither_ of them seems to have worked out too well, going by the body count by end of Act V... :shrug:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 20, 2009)

Joab said:


> One teacher in my past emphasized hating your attacker. Now to be fair, he was referring to somebody out on the streets who has attacked you without provocation who is trying to kill or rape you or both, a very serious situation to be sure. "You've got to hate!" he would say why we were doing our drills.


Not real keen on this type of training logic.  I think that his intent was to have you train with an intensity that would help you to be effective in an SD situation, but there are better ways to do that.  



Joab said:


> This caused much tension and a feeling of being uncomfortable, even out and out anxiety on my part, and I do suffer from an anxiety, disorder, as I am a Christian, and it is clearly against the teachings of Jesus to hate anybody, even your enemy, in fact your supposed to love everyone, including your enemy. Is it necessary to hate your attacker, or can you merely be determined to stop the attack by any means necessary, running if at all possible without hating your attacker? Does hatred actually give you the edge you need to survive, or is this teacher something of a radical in his philosophy? (Well, I think he is something of a radical, but that's an aside) All opinions appreciated.


Hatred requires an emotional investment.  It also requires that I desire to do harm to another, not merely prevent them from harming you.  The goal of self defense is to extricate yourself from danger.  Sometimes, this can only be accomplished through the application of physical force.  But even then, the goal is personal safety, not retibutive strike.  

Also, hate can lead you to do sloppy things, such as prolong a fight in order to gain some personal satisfaction.  The longer a fight goes on, the greater the chances of _*you*_ being injured, which is the main reason that I stated that I don't care for your former teacher's training methodology in this respect.

Do what you must to get out of harm's way.  Do _whatever_ you must, but do not do so with malice.  If the attacker is injured or even killed as a result, so be it; he attacked and now suffers the consequences.  Just remember that there could be legal consequences for you if you inflict injury or death after the attacker is rendered suitably harmless.

Also, hatred does not give you a survival edge.  If anything, it can cause you to be angry when you needn't be and thus increase emotional stress and therefore shorten your life.  It can lead you to do unreasonable things that you might not otherwise do, things which can cost you personally, professionally, and even physically.  This is because hate and anger can artificially induce a phisiological fight or flight response when there is no present threat.  Precisely the reasons that Jesus tells us to love our enemies.   

Lastly, Jesus' words about living boil down to love God and your neighbor.  If everyone did just the second half of this, our world would be a much nicer place.  Remember that love does not mean being a doormat, nor does it absolve an attacker of wrongdoing.  

We are to live peacably with our neighbors to the best of our ability.  When our neighbors assault us and prevent that from happening, it is up to us to resolve the situation as peacably as possible.  Sometimes, peacably as possible means putting your neighbor in the hospital, as that is the only way to end the attack without killing said neighbor.  Hate should never enter the equasion.

As a believer in Christ myself, I can see where you are coming from.  Given that the last Gallup poll that I recall (about five years ago) claimed that 80% of the country claims to Christian of some denomination, I think that it is a worthy topic of discussion.

Daniel


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## Em MacIntosh (Mar 20, 2009)

You can't hurt smeone without malice.  We learn that malice is a bad thing and unless we are combatants for a living we spend more time trying to get along with society than we do fostering traits that only serve to hurt.  Sometimes you need those abilities but rarely.  I think it's a matter of terminology.  Hate is a poorly defined word but it implies dehumanization to make it easier to hurt someone.  Once you declare to yourself you are the force of good and declare someone else the force of evil you've taken away that respect of considering them human.  This helps close off your empathy and reduces your reluctance to injure them.  Needless to say this makes you more capable of defending yourself.  I'd say that what he's referring to is the correct use of the "fight response" in the "fight or flight" scenario.  You don't have much time to second guess yourself so if you've made the split decision to fight remember that a threat has to be neutralized to ensure your safety.  If hate (however you define it) gives you an edge use that edge, just understand the limitations.


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## TV954 (Mar 25, 2009)

I agree that for those who are trained, excessive emotion of any type may cause hesitation or misjudgment or may cause a response out of proportion to the force initiated. For an untrained person, however, using emotion as a trigger or motivating energy might be the only thing that allows them to cross that line in their head that divides not wanting to hurt another from being able to exert force for personal protection. For an untrained person, the thought and action and sheer violence of what is involved in an attack is a shock on many levels and strong emotion, if harnessed in the right way, can be positive.


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## morph4me (Mar 25, 2009)

Em MacIntosh said:


> You can't hurt smeone without malice. We learn that malice is a bad thing and unless we are combatants for a living we spend more time trying to get along with society than we do fostering traits that only serve to hurt. Sometimes you need those abilities but rarely. I think it's a matter of terminology. Hate is a poorly defined word but it implies dehumanization to make it easier to hurt someone. Once you declare to yourself you are the force of good and declare someone else the force of evil you've taken away that respect of considering them human. This helps close off your empathy and reduces your reluctance to injure them. Needless to say this makes you more capable of defending yourself. I'd say that what he's referring to is the correct use of the "fight response" in the "fight or flight" scenario. You don't have much time to second guess yourself so if you've made the split decision to fight remember that a threat has to be neutralized to ensure your safety. If hate (however you define it) gives you an edge use that edge, just understand the limitations.


 
I disagree, people are hurt everyday without malice. People are trampled by others trying to survive a fire, or escape gunshots, no malice. You don't need malice to hurt someone who's trying to hurt you, you need the will to survive and the skill and luck to make it happen. You also don't have to declare yourself a force for good, or your attacker a force for evil, you just have to have the desire to live. You are responsible for your own survival, as is your attacker. If an attacker chooses the wrong victim and gets hurt, it isn't the victims responsibility, it's the attackers. No attack means there's nothing to defend against and no one gets hurt.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 25, 2009)

Em MacIntosh said:


> You can't hurt smeone without malice. We learn that malice is a bad thing and unless we are combatants for a living we spend more time trying to get along with society than we do fostering traits that only serve to hurt.  Sometimes you need those abilities but rarely.


Malice means that you are setting out to do harm to another.  If I am attacked and I defend, even with lethal force, I did not *set out* to do harm to another.  Huge difference.  

If attacked and my *goal* becomes to harm or kill an attacker, whether or not the attacker breaks off the attack, then that is malice.  

If I derive pleasure from hurting my attacker, that is malice.

Keep in mind that I only brought up defending without malice towards the attacker because I am responding to someone who is trying to maintain a Christian approach to self defense.  



Em MacIntosh said:


> I think it's a matter of terminology. Hate is a poorly defined word but it implies dehumanization to make it easier to hurt someone. Once you declare to yourself you are the force of good and declare someone else the force of evil you've taken away that respect of considering them human.


What does this have to do with hate?  Declaring myself as a force for good doesn't mean that I'll _hate_ the guy who attacks me.  Even if I consder my assailant a force for evil, it does not follow that I _hate_ them.



Em MacIntosh said:


> This helps close off your empathy and reduces your reluctance to injure them. Needless to say this makes you more capable of defending yourself. I'd say that what he's referring to is the correct use of the "fight response" in the "fight or flight" scenario. You don't have much time to second guess yourself so if you've made the split decision to fight remember that a threat has to be neutralized to ensure your safety.


Yes, I agree that that is what his teacher was trying to convey.  But fight response isn't hate.  That is why I don't approve of teaching fight response in that way.  Neutralization of a threat is a matter of urgency, not emotional hatred.  I don't _hate_ the tree that is falling towards my car, but I have a strong survival response to swerve to avoid being hit by it. If a tiger springs from its cage at the S/F Zoo, eats the guys who taunted it, then decides that I look tastey too, I don't hate the tiger.  But I'll do whatever I need to do not to get eaten, including shooting it dead if I am so equipped, though I'd prefer not to have to kill the animal.



Em MacIntosh said:


> If hate (however you define it) gives you an edge use that edge, just understand the limitations.


Hate cannot give you an edge in a confrontation.  Hatred requires thought.  You don't have time to formulate hate when you're attacked.  The issue of hatred towards an attacker doesn't come until after the attack has passed and you have time to think about what was done to you.  Hardly helpful during the attack, but potentially harmful to you (the general you, not you personally) down the road in the form of holding a grudge and internalizing anger over an event that has already passed.

Daniel


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## BLACK LION (Apr 1, 2009)

training to hate your attacker brings with it a level of emotional mismanagement....   hate does not equate to violence... it is merely an emotional fixation on something which you really shouldnt have...  

I look at it from a neutral standpoint...  I derive no pleasure or no sorrow... just move throught the target and on to the next... its time to work so be as professional as possible...   habituating violence does not bring with it a level of hate for anyone... not even a sociopathic axe murderer...  it brings acceptance of the task at hand and with no emotion in the matter one can clearly be un biased and decisive...  

If you must hate you would be attacker then you would hate everyone in the world including friends and family becuase everyone has the potential and capacity to commit violence agaist you and all should be suspected as capable of such....   

If you are too busy hating people then you are not at 100% emotionally... I can politely crush someones throat at anytime of anyday and have no emotinal attachment to doing it... I can go right back to eating my bigmack like it never happened....    controlled violence has no emotion and no preference of any kind...  its there to use when you need it and turn off when you dont....  hating something binds you to it entirely and you dont want that baggage...   

I would rather kill out of instinct than out of hate for someone or something...  taking a life with hate as a motive is like murder in cold blood...   habituate violence by making it instinctual not emotional...


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## shihansmurf (Apr 12, 2009)

I view any person that I have to inflict harm upon as an obstacle, nothing more. I have no emotional investment in them at all. I don't hate, I don't love. I just look at them and dehumanize them to just being a fleshy thing that I must injure or kill to meet whatever goal I have at that moment. Worked well for me during my deployments, works well for me in self defense situations. 

Just my view
Mark


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## nigebj (Jul 27, 2021)

Your attacker has signalled an intent to hurt or even kill you, they simply need to be stopped. They are most likely acting irrationally for any number of reasons - mental health, alcohol, drugs. Concentrate on the job at hand - see another day. Hopefully your reflexes and training will cause you to be able to stop the attack, make sure it is stopped (immobilize or significantly restrict the attacker) and then get out of there. Emotion will come when you reflect on the situation, you'll not have time to engage emotion during the attack, you'll likely experience surprise and fear, at best you can harness what nature gives you in terms of your fight-or-flight response.


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## Tez3 (Jul 27, 2021)

The problem with a resurrected thread is that it reminds us of so many members who don't post here anymore, so many on this one. 😢


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 27, 2021)

Joab said:


> hating your attacker.


You don't have to hate the attacker. It gives you a chance to test your MA skill.


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## nigebj (Jul 27, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> The problem with a resurrected thread is that it reminds us of so many members who don't post here anymore, so many on this one. 😢


The advantage is, the question and replies are as relevant today as 12 years ago.


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## Steve (Jul 27, 2021)

I would hope that the answer is always no.


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## jayoliver00 (Jul 27, 2021)

Joab said:


> One teacher in my past emphasized hating your attacker. Now to be fair, he was referring to somebody out on the streets who has attacked you without provocation who is trying to kill or rape you or both, a very serious situation to be sure. "You've got to hate!" he would say why we were doing our drills. This caused much tension and a feeling of being uncomfortable, even out and out anxiety on my part, and I do suffer from an anxiety, disorder, as I am a Christian, and it is clearly against the teachings of Jesus to hate anybody, even your enemy, in fact your supposed to love everyone, including your enemy. Is it necessary to hate your attacker, or can you merely be determined to stop the attack by any means necessary, running if at all possible without hating your attacker? Does hatred actually give you the edge you need to survive, or is this teacher something of a radical in his philosophy? (Well, I think he is something of a radical, but that's an aside) All opinions appreciated.



When you're a Noob, it's good to get amped up & hateful to go full blast. Probably will gas out fast, but that's usually the best bet for people who aren't good at fighting yet in a RL situation.

After years of real training and sparring from light to KO power, is when you get more relaxed, know how to conserve energy, etc. and you fight like it's just another day of KO sparring time. 

At the Fighter level w/5-10 fights at least (IMO), you can chose to be playful if it helps, or switch back & forth from full blast "11" to playful.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 27, 2021)

Do you need to hate your attacker?​
Someone attacks you in the street, Your front kick knock him down without thinking. While he is on the ground, you tell him, "I don't mean to hurt you this bad. Please don't hate me."


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## Tez3 (Jul 28, 2021)

nigebj said:


> The advantage is, the question and replies are as relevant today as 12 years ago.




I don't think it is relevant, if you've been on this site for the past few days you'll know there's been a quite acrimonious discussion on anger, resurrecting this seems more than accidentally picking a thread that has the same theme as that discussion.


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## drop bear (Jul 28, 2021)

Steve said:


> I would hope that the answer is always no.



I have to admit when I was working I kind of did. 

It just really irritated me that people couldn't behave like adults.


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## Ivan (Jul 28, 2021)

Joab said:


> One teacher in my past emphasized hating your attacker. Now to be fair, he was referring to somebody out on the streets who has attacked you without provocation who is trying to kill or rape you or both, a very serious situation to be sure. "You've got to hate!" he would say why we were doing our drills. This caused much tension and a feeling of being uncomfortable, even out and out anxiety on my part, and I do suffer from an anxiety, disorder, as I am a Christian, and it is clearly against the teachings of Jesus to hate anybody, even your enemy, in fact your supposed to love everyone, including your enemy. Is it necessary to hate your attacker, or can you merely be determined to stop the attack by any means necessary, running if at all possible without hating your attacker? Does hatred actually give you the edge you need to survive, or is this teacher something of a radical in his philosophy? (Well, I think he is something of a radical, but that's an aside) All opinions appreciated.


I think it's important not to confuse aggression and intent with emotions. Real confrontations are unlikely to last more than 10 seconds. You don't have time to formulate such emotions in that time. You should focus on aggression not hate. It is possible to be a brutal opponent without letting emotions become involved.


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## MrBigglesworth (Nov 23, 2021)

Not sure how you have time to hate an attacker until afterwards.
If you need that sort of motivation to get busy, you're in trouble from the outset.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 23, 2021)

Andy Moynihan said:


> No.
> 
> You need not to "hate" or "fear" you need to not even CARE.
> 
> ...


Yes I agree, trust your body. Well said and familiar.


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## mograph (Nov 23, 2021)

I can see the teacher's desire to overcome the student's fear of injuring an opponent, but I don't think hating the opponent is the way to go. Hatred is based on fear and anger, where anger is based on a perceived threat. It's also entwined with a desire to protect something with which you identify: your tribe, your ideals, and so on. 

There's way too much baggage in hating your opponent. Too much attachment that takes you out of the moment.

I agree with the others: just respond. Quickly, no thought, just trained habit.


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## caped crusader (Nov 24, 2021)

mograph said:


> I can see the teacher's desire to overcome the student's fear of injuring an opponent, but I don't think hating the opponent is the way to go. Hatred is based on fear and anger, where anger is based on a perceived threat. It's also entwined with a desire to protect something with which you identify: your tribe, your ideals, and so on.
> 
> There's way too much baggage in hating your opponent. Too much attachment that takes you out of the moment.
> 
> I agree with the others: just respond. Quickly, no thought, just trained habit.


Although hate and Anger can make even a small man very dangerous. Never underestimate it. Your opponent might have high uncontrolled rage. Bi polar people are sometimes like this.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 24, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Although hate and Anger can make even a small man very dangerous. Never underestimate it. Your opponent might have high uncontrolled rage. Bi polar people are sometimes like this.


This is a ridiculous idea that uncontrolled rage is somehow useful.


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## caped crusader (Nov 24, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> This is a ridiculous idea that uncontrolled rage is somehow useful.


you have misunderstood what i wrote. Please read it again, think then write.
Hope this helps. 
CC.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 24, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Although hate and Anger can make even a small man very dangerous. Never underestimate it. Your opponent might have high uncontrolled rage. Bi polar people are sometimes like this.





caped crusader said:


> you have misunderstood what i wrote. Please read it again, think then write.
> Hope this helps.
> CC.


What would help is if you try being civil instead of trolling my posts. I would have messaged you directly but you limit who can see your profile.


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## caped crusader (Nov 24, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> What would help is if you try being civil instead of trolling my posts. I would have messaged you directly but you limit who can see your profile.


I do not want you to message me. Please respect my privacy 
Thank you  
CC.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 24, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> you have misunderstood what i wrote. Please read it again, think then write.
> Hope this helps.
> CC.


You wrote that rage and anger make even a small man dangerous. I disagree. Rage and anger cloud decision making and get in the way of the body acting in a controlled way. The idea that rage or anger make a person more dangerous is ridiculous.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 24, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> I do not want you to message me. Please respect my privacy
> Thank you
> CC.


Don’t start it up then. You should know that without me having to tell you.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 24, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You wrote that rage and anger make even a small man dangerous. I disagree. Rage and anger cloud decision making and get in the way of the body acting in a controlled way. The idea that rage or anger make a person more dangerous is ridiculous.





caped crusader said:


> I do not want you to message me. Please respect my privacy
> Thank you
> CC.


You mad bro? That anger and uncontrolled rage building you up to dangerous yet?


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## caped crusader (Nov 24, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You mad bro? That anger and uncontrolled rage building you up to dangerous yet?


This site is about opinions and discussions. Most opinions are valid, some not so much. Please try to stay civil.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 24, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> This site is about opinions and discussions. Most opinions are valid, some not so much. Please try to stay civil.


Take your own advice.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 24, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> What would help is if you try being civil instead of trolling my posts. I would have messaged you directly but you limit who can see your profile.





caped crusader said:


> you have misunderstood what i wrote. Please read it again, think then write.
> Hope this helps.
> CC.


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## caped crusader (Nov 24, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Take your own advice.


please stop stalking me.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 24, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> please stop stalking me.


Stalking? LMAO it’s a forum. You start with such strong words and opinions, but now you sound like you are begging. i like the new you, it suits you well.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 24, 2021)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Let me me blunt here. Knock off the bickering. Return to the topic and keep it polite and professional. Or warnings, suspensions, or bannings will be forthcoming.

Mark A. Cochran
@Dirty Dog 
MartialTalk Senior Moderator


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 24, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> ATTENTION ALL USERS:
> 
> Let me me blunt here. Knock off the bickering. Return to the topic and keep it polite and professional. Or warnings, suspensions, or bannings will be forthcoming.
> 
> ...


10-4


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## mograph (Nov 24, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Although hate and Anger can make even a small man very dangerous. Never underestimate it. Your opponent might have high uncontrolled rage. Bi polar people are sometimes like this.


But if they "lose it," they are at a disadvantage if you are in control and observant, and if you are able to manipulate them. They're only dangerous if their anger catches you by surprise. 

It's the cucumber-cool psychopaths you have to watch out for.


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## caped crusader (Nov 24, 2021)

mograph said:


> It's the cucumber-cool psychopaths you have to watch out for.


maybe


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## CB Jones (Nov 26, 2021)

Hate may just be the wrong word.  I prefer Josey Wales analogy.  You just have to get plumb mad dog mean.

When fighting for survival you to lose hesitation, sympathy, and/or remorse for your attacker...your only goal is your survival.


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## caped crusader (Nov 26, 2021)

you do get some weird mentalities though..  i remember a very Far Left guy telling me he hated war, which is ok.  I asked how he deals with conflicts and because of his opinions on war i said so what would you do if you were a soldier and another man was going to put a bayonet through you or your friend. would you kill him?
He said no i would put up my arms and let him kill me...


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## mograph (Nov 26, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> you do get some weird mentalities though..  i remember a very Far Left guy telling me he hated war, which is ok.  I asked how he deals with conflicts and because of his opinions on war i said so what would you do if you were a soldier and another man was going to put a bayonet through you or your friend. would you kill him?
> He said no i would put up my arms and let him kill me...


Eh, he's lying. Extreme positions are based on limited direct experience.


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## ThatOneCanadian (Nov 26, 2021)

If you are in a non-life-or-death situation, *no*. There is no reason to have a burning hatred over some drunk 5ft4 guy trying to shove you around.

If you are in a life-or-death situation, *yes*. People don't go to war with a smile on their face.


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## mograph (Nov 27, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> If you are in a non-life-or-death situation, *no*. There is no reason to have a burning hatred over some drunk 5ft4 guy trying to shove you around.
> 
> If you are in a life-or-death situation, *yes*. People don't go to war with a smile on their face.


I think the point of martial arts is to fight with neither a frown _nor_ a smile, but a *blank* expression ... or one of *concentration and focus*.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 27, 2021)

I dont think I have ever hated anyone.  Ive been attacked by and have "attacked" (for lack of a better word) hundreds of people as a police officer.  Never hated a single one.  Even killed someone once and didnt hate him.  I feel bad I was put in that situation and I feel bad for his family but I know he wasnt of sane mind.  Ive always looked at physical confrontations more like a business transaction dont get to high or to low just do what needs to be done to end it as quickly and safely as possible.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 27, 2021)

ballen0351 said:


> I dont think I have ever hated anyone.  Ive been attacked by and have "attacked" (for lack of a better word) hundreds of people as a police officer.  Never hated a single one.  Even killed someone once and didnt hate him.  I feel bad I was put in that situation and I feel bad for his family but I know he wasnt of sane mind.  Ive always looked at physical confrontations more like a business transaction dont get to high or to low just do what needs to be done to end it as quickly and safely as possible.


Quoted for truth. This. Always this.
People who are overly emotional in confrontations will make bad choices. People will end up hurt or dead, when they didn't need to be. Do what needs to be done. No more, no less. And that requires a mind still capable of applying judgement.


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## MrBigglesworth (Nov 30, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Although hate and Anger can make even a small man very dangerous. Never underestimate it. Your opponent might have high uncontrolled rage. Bi polar people are sometimes like this.


Can see for and against with this.

It can cloud their judgement and cause you to do something that leaves them open.
OTOH, if they get the upper hand it may lead them go places no sane person would. Prison biatches or death row be damned.


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## dvcochran (Dec 1, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Quoted for truth. This. Always this.
> People who are overly emotional in confrontations will make bad choices. People will end up hurt or dead, when they didn't need to be. Do what needs to be done. No more, no less. And that requires a mind still capable of applying judgement.


It is scary amazing what a person who is on drugs and gets jacked up on adrenaline can and is willing to do. 
We had a guy who was shot in the head in Vietnam in our town. Very mentally altered but as long as he was on his med's he did not cause much trouble. 
One very cold night on patrol I passed a car dealership and saw Tommy buck naked. He would take a step then jump, over and over. I got out and opened the back door and he just walked over and jumped in, never saying a word. I got in the car and immediately blasted the heat. Tommy quickly said "can you turn off the heat, I am burning up". About 30 minutes later we were at the back of the PD and just talking (waiting for intake approval to carry him to the VA). A young officer came out and said something to the effect of "we have the paperwork". What transpired next you just had to be there to believe. 
Tommy was slim, maybe weighing 140lbs. For the next several minutes he was the strongest person I have ever met. Part of this was trying to subdue him without hurting him but man oh man did he make that hard. And the noises he would make could only be described as animalistic. Totally scared the young officer off. That is another story.
Crazy stuff.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> It is scary amazing what a person who is on drugs and gets jacked up on adrenaline can and is willing to do.
> We had a guy who was shot in the head in Vietnam in our town. Very mentally altered but as long as he was on his med's he did not cause much trouble.
> One very cold night on patrol I passed a car dealership and saw Tommy buck naked. He would take a step then jump, over and over. I got out and opened the back door and he just walked over and jumped in, never saying a word. I got in the car and immediately blasted the heat. Tommy quickly said "can you turn off the heat, I am burning up". About 30 minutes later we were at the back of the PD and just talking (waiting for intake approval to carry him to the VA). A young officer came out and said something to the effect of "we have the paperwork". What transpired next you just had to be there to believe.
> Tommy was slim, maybe weighing 140lbs. For the next several minutes he was the strongest person I have ever met. Part of this was trying to subdue him without hurting him but man oh man did he make that hard. And the noises he would make could only be described as animalistic. Totally scared the young officer off. That is another story.
> Crazy stuff.


When young men come out of anesthesia it is common for them to come up swinging. These are post surgical patients, so you can’t just manhandle them. It can get pretty wild sometimes. More than once the nurse has become a patient.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 2, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> It is scary amazing what a person who is on drugs and gets jacked up on adrenaline can and is willing to do.
> We had a guy who was shot in the head in Vietnam in our town. Very mentally altered but as long as he was on his med's he did not cause much trouble.
> One very cold night on patrol I passed a car dealership and saw Tommy buck naked. He would take a step then jump, over and over. I got out and opened the back door and he just walked over and jumped in, never saying a word. I got in the car and immediately blasted the heat. Tommy quickly said "can you turn off the heat, I am burning up". About 30 minutes later we were at the back of the PD and just talking (waiting for intake approval to carry him to the VA). A young officer came out and said something to the effect of "we have the paperwork". What transpired next you just had to be there to believe.
> Tommy was slim, maybe weighing 140lbs. For the next several minutes he was the strongest person I have ever met. Part of this was trying to subdue him without hurting him but man oh man did he make that hard. And the noises he would make could only be described as animalistic. Totally scared the young officer off. That is another story.
> Crazy stuff.


In the ED, we call things like this "Monday"...
Just as an aside, any time I hear a patch that boils down to "wandering around naked in the snow" I think "Meth". For some reason, meth users end up naked in the snow with amazing frequency.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> In the ED, we call things like this "Monday"...
> Just as an aside, any time I hear a patch that boils down to "wandering around naked in the snow" I think "Meth". For some reason, meth users end up naked in the snow with amazing frequency.


Glad the ED gets them BEFORE they come to the OR. Bless you guys for the work you do.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 2, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> When young men come out of anesthesia it is common for them to come up swinging. These are post surgical patients, so you can’t just manhandle them. It can get pretty wild sometimes. More than once the nurse has become a patient.


When I had my foot surgery, I am told I came out of anesthesia swinging.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> When I had my foot surgery, I am told I came out of anesthesia swinging.


We never take it personal. I typically position myself on transfer so as not to catch a wild swing or groping hand. There have however, been a few rodeos. It’s not ideal and I blame the anesthesiologist.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 3, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> We never take it personal. I typically position myself on transfer so as not to catch a wild swing or groping hand. There have however, been a few rodeos. It’s not ideal and I blame the anesthesiologist.


I told my surgeon, “Hey, you came after me with a knife. What did you expect?”


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 3, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> When I had my foot surgery, I am told I came out of anesthesia swinging.


When my eye was removed, I came out of anesthesia swinging. But not to hurt. I was hitting on the absolutely stunning young Indian nurse in the recovery room. I wasn't obscene, but I have always been somewhat reserved, and I was ready to marry her on the spot. Or at least get a date.
I was 17 at the time. And when my brain began to function properly, I was mortified.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 3, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> In the ED, we call things like this "Monday"...
> Just as an aside, any time I hear a patch that boils down to "wandering around naked in the snow" I think "Meth". For some reason, meth users end up naked in the snow with amazing frequency.


That doesn't sound right...you guys don't know what snow is. Just ask @Xue Sheng


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 3, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That doesn't sound right...you guys don't know what snow is. Just ask @Xue Sheng


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 3, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> When my eye was removed, I came out of anesthesia swinging. But not to hurt. I was hitting on the absolutely stunning young Indian nurse in the recovery room. I wasn't obscene, but I have always been somewhat reserved, and I was ready to marry her on the spot. Or at least get a date.
> I was 17 at the time. And when my brain began to function properly, I was mortified.


At least your attempt had a potential positive payoff.  😂


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 3, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I told my surgeon, “Hey, you came after me with a knife. What did you expect?”


Lol!


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 3, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> At least your attempt had a potential positive payoff.  😂


Often, the versed has an amorous effect on ladies over 40. Not sure why, but many of them seem to lose all inhibition.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 3, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Often, the versed has an amorous effect on ladies over 40. Not sure why, but many of them seem to lose all inhibition.


They used Pentothol back then. In large doses it's a damned good anesthetic induction. In smaller doses, it basically seems to disconnect the filter between your brain and your mouth. If you think it, you say it. 
There are quite a few of these drugs; scopalamine,  midazolam (brand name Versed),  and thiopental are examples I can come up with off the top of my head. I feel like there is a barbiturate and at least one more benzo that are also known for this effect, but I can't recall which ones. Oh, and ethanol, but everyone knows that one.


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## Steve (Dec 3, 2021)

I have been told I get very funny when I'm coming out of anesthesia.  Missed my calling in standup, I guess.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 3, 2021)

Steve said:


> I have been told I get very funny when I'm coming out of anesthesia.  Missed my calling in standup, I guess.


Between us, I think we might have a show.


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## Steve (Dec 3, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Between us, I think we might have a show.


I'm down... maybe after I retire we can workshop something.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 3, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That doesn't sound right...you guys don't know what snow is. Just ask @Xue Sheng



Back in my security days at a hospital I did once find a whining drunk sitting in a snow bank trying to find the entrance to the ER...on the wrong side of the hospital


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 3, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> Back in my security days at a hospital I did once find a whining drunk sitting in a snow bank trying to find the entrance to the ER...on the wrong side of the hospital


I had that a couple times with them trying to leave. Get called to a code to talk one of my patients down as he was trying to AMA. Rushing out of there, but no idea where he's actually going so really just angrily walking around the hospital for a half hour until he tires himself out and I talk to him.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 3, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> They used Pentothol back then. In large doses it's a damned good anesthetic induction. In smaller doses, it basically seems to disconnect the filter between your brain and your mouth. If you think it, you say it.
> There are quite a few of these drugs; scopalamine,  midazolam (brand name Versed),  and thiopental are examples I can come up with off the top of my head. I feel like there is a barbiturate and at least one more benzo that are also known for this effect, but I can't recall which ones. Oh, and ethanol, but everyone knows that one.


Ethanol is my personal fave!


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 3, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I had that a couple times with them trying to leave. Get called to a code to talk one of my patients down as he was trying to AMA. Rushing out of there, but no idea where he's actually going so really just angrily walking around the hospital for a half hour until he tires himself out and I talk to him.


Lmao! That’s a good one! I got to a Dr. Strong code in ICU as the 108 lbs. Craniotomy pt. Was climbing out the third story window to escape. When I asked him to return to his bed for his safety, he came back in and squared off with me in a fighting stance because he thought I was challenging him. When I giggled at him a little and backed away a step he just got back into bed without saying another word. Strange days sometimes.


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## mograph (Dec 3, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> View attachment 27688


Snow way to talk!


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 4, 2021)

mograph said:


> Snow way to talk!


Why do we not have a groan emoji?


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## Steve (Dec 5, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Why do we not have a groan emoji?


😩


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## tim po (Dec 14, 2021)

Joab said:


> One teacher in my past emphasized hating your attacker. Now to be fair, he was referring to somebody out on the streets who has attacked you without provocation who is trying to kill or rape you or both, a very serious situation to be sure. "You've got to hate!" he would say why we were doing our drills. This caused much tension and a feeling of being uncomfortable, even out and out anxiety on my part, and I do suffer from an anxiety, disorder, as I am a Christian, and it is clearly against the teachings of Jesus to hate anybody, even your enemy, in fact your supposed to love everyone, including your enemy. Is it necessary to hate your attacker, or can you merely be determined to stop the attack by any means necessary, running if at all possible without hating your attacker? Does hatred actually give you the edge you need to survive, or is this teacher something of a radical in his philosophy? (Well, I think he is something of a radical, but that's an aside) All opinions appreciated.


of all the purported 'higher purposes' of martial arts training, overcoming hate may be the most important in our age.

Hatred is a poison to the spirit. some choose it, sometimes it can be forced upon us. it can provide tremendous rage to fuel aggression, but any who have acted upon it will tell you that whatever catharsis was gained in vengeance, there is no antidote for the poison. 

you don't have to consider yourself a Bodhisatva to understand why compassion and serenity are cultivated in Warrior training, it is to protect you, not your enemy. hate will consume you. not to be a cheeseball, but have you seen Star Wars? pretty much the theme.


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