# Appropriate Self Defense



## crazydiamond (Mar 20, 2015)

I am still fairly new but getting a wide variety of techniques from simple boxing to more brutal techniques. Some of the things I am trained in I know would seriously injure someone.

How does one learn to measure ones counter measures in self defenses in the heat (panic? fear?) of a real attack? I mean if a drunken guy throws a swing or two - how do you control to use simple blocking, and a few counter jabs, or restraint moves, versus responding out of fear or muscle memory and use moves that would be better served on a truly life threatening response?

I suspect even in a witnessed self dense situation, you might personally, morally, or legally not want to over counter? Is it just working on understanding your attacker well enough, or always starting lower and escalating  as needed? My instructors are pretty good about this - occasionally saying "you might not want to use this last move, unless you have to" but I just dont get how you handle this decision in the heat of an attack.


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## ShortBridge (Mar 20, 2015)

It's a very important question with a complicated answer. I'm sure you'll get a lot of good advice here. 

You might enjoy the book "Scaling Force", which is written on this exact subject.


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## Mephisto (Mar 20, 2015)

Street smarts and common sense are your allies when applying force. These are issues a legit self defense instructor will cover. But like short bridge added above, there's a lot of reading material available. I'd say generally if you're trying to maim or severely injure an opponent you'd better be able to prove to a judge and jury that you were afraid for your life. If a guy shoves you you're gonna have hard time explaining why you throat punched him and stomped his head. Now if he's significantly bigger or he was with a group, you might have more  of a chance in court. Of course, there's plenty of gray area. You could punch a guy who was punching at you and ko him and falls and hits his head and dies.


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## Shai Hulud (Mar 20, 2015)

You may want to check local laws. Where I'm taught, the general rule of thumb is that you use whatever force is necessary to get the target to stop and prevent another attempt on your person. That's anywhere from a joint lock or a KO to a dislocated limb or broken bone. Many possibilities, so long as you make sure you don't cross the boundary with your local authorities.


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 20, 2015)

My answer is simple albeit not always possible.  Walk away.
If you have to use offensive actions make sure your life depends on it. The actual fight is only the start. Assault charges will follow regardless of who started it. Someone will have it filmed on their phone for evidence. Then even  if you are not charged there will also be a civil suit, costing you your life savings to defend against.
So unless your life depends on it, walk away.   That's my version of the force continuum.


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## FriedRice (Mar 20, 2015)

crazydiamond said:


> I am still fairly new but getting a wide variety of techniques from simple boxing to more brutal techniques. Some of the things I am trained in I know would seriously injure someone.
> 
> I suspect even in a witnessed self dense situation, you might personally, morally, or legally not want to over counter?



You can kill someone with "simple boxing". Even if you're not even a good boxer, as a lucky haymaker that lands well can drop your opponent, usually falling backwards....can kill him if he cracks his head open and/or he goes into a coma or dies later at the hospital. It's almost guaranteed to cause some kind of head injury if anyone were to get punched and they crashed their head into the solid, concrete.I have about 4 videos of where this exact thing happened, resulting in death....with around 50 resulting in street KO's.

Contrary to most Self Defense beliefs, hitting someone in the throat or such, is not that brutal and rarely stops the fight. Eye gouging works and so does nut kicks, but just the same would be a KO with one punch as they all seek the similar goal of incapacitation (even temporal) to end the situation, and then to ie., run away. But in general, you may have to stay there until the cops comes even if you weren't the bad guy. So a nutshot may be the best option for proving your case to the cops, the judge, the jury, etc. as this is more of a wimpy move that's considered a womanly strike. But it's worth it if it saves you tens of thousands of $$$$ to maybe $100,000 + jail time, etc.....but if you had to wait for the cops, then you're still in danger once that guy's nuts stopped hurting. While eye strikes can be considered maiming and the bad guy, with a eye patch and missing eyeball, ain't going to admit that he's the attacker in court. 

In general, the more you train and get  good at fighting through hard sparring time, and really trying to KO your friends and partners in the gym, the less you'll care about needing to prove your skills in the streets, making it much easier to walk away. And if you had to, a decent fighter can just toy with someone in the street with jabs and/or just walk away. It's risky and can also threaten your own life, but it's also fun.


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## K-man (Mar 20, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> You can kill someone with "simple boxing". Even if you're not even a good boxer, as a lucky haymaker that lands well can drop your opponent, usually falling backwards....can kill him if he cracks his head open and/or he goes into a coma or dies later at the hospital. It's almost guaranteed to cause some kind of head injury if anyone were to get punched and they crashed their head into the solid, concrete.I have about 4 videos of where this exact thing happened, resulting in death....with around 50 resulting in street KO's.


Yes you can cause death or severe injury this way but what you have described is hardly 'simple boxing'. 



FriedRice said:


> Contrary to most Self Defense beliefs, hitting someone in the throat or such, is not that brutal and rarely stops the fight. Eye gouging works and so does nut kicks, but just the same would be a KO with one punch as they all seek the similar goal of incapacitation (even temporal) to end the situation, and then to ie., run away. But in general, you may have to stay there until the cops comes even if you weren't the bad guy. So a nutshot may be the best option for proving your case to the cops, the judge, the jury, etc. as this is more of a wimpy move that's considered a womanly strike. But it's worth it if it saves you tens of thousands of $$$$ to maybe $100,000 + jail time, etc.....but if you had to wait for the cops, then you're still in danger once that guy's nuts stopped hurting. While eye strikes can be considered maiming and the bad guy, with a eye patch and missing eyeball, ain't going to admit that he's the attacker in court.


Some really bad advice here. Firstly, 'nut shots' as you put it are notoriously unreliable. Secondly, if you know how to strike the neck it is highly effective and finally, in an altercation where you have survived the situation you *never* hang around to wait for the police. Too many things can go wrong. Leave while you can and contact police later. 



FriedRice said:


> In general, the more you train and get  good at fighting through hard sparring time, and really trying to KO your friends and partners in the gym, the less you'll care about needing to prove your skills in the streets, making it much easier to walk away. And if you had to, a decent fighter can just toy with someone in the street with jabs and/or just walk away. It's risky and can also threaten your own life, but it's also fun.


Walking away is the only good advice. 'Toying' with someone on the street is just plain dumb.


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## FriedRice (Mar 20, 2015)

K-man said:


> Yes you can cause death or severe injury this way but what you have described is hardly 'simple boxing'.



Tell me then, what did I just describe then?



> Some really bad advice here. Firstly, 'nut shots' as you put it are notoriously unreliable.



Obviously what's lacking here is your power and precision. 



> Secondly, if you know how to strike the neck it is highly effective



What's crazy here is that you think that a neck strike is more reliable than a nut kick. I've been punched and kicked in the neck, Adam's Apple, etc. by equally trained fighters who were trying to KO me and it never stopped the fight. I only feel a slight sore throat about an hour later in the showers and it goes away on it's own by the next day or so. While a nut kick have stopped me from fighting for 1-10 minutes. Although, as trained fighters, we have more skill, precision, power, killer instinct and ability to take a beating than you do.



> and finally,  in an altercation where you have survived the situation you *never* hang around to wait for the police. Too many things can go wrong. Leave while you can and contact police later.



It depends, your saying never, implies that you have a crystal ball. I'd rather talk to the cops than having others do it for me, especially if they may say that I was the attacker. And my assailant who's hurt, is certainly not going to paint a pretty picture of me. Many things can go wrong if I wait around, but it also depends on where I am, whether it's the ghetto at 2am or if I'm in my own neighborhood or whatever.



> Walking away is the only good advice. 'Toying' with someone on the street is just plain dumb.


 
Some of us enjoys it. It's obviously not for you, just like sparring for KO's in the gym or fighting in the ring for fun, because it takes balls.


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## Drose427 (Mar 20, 2015)

Im not sure how big you are size wise,

But everyone i work with in our self defense or free sparring is at least twice my size. 220+lbs, 5'11", etc. Free sparring we go hard, and SD, we go full speed. I dont react properly, i get a broken nose.

Even the guys i work with outside of the training hall are usually much larger and morr intimidating.

Everytime ive used my training in Self Defense,  theyve been a bit bigger then me, but not as big as some of the guys i work with.  

Hard for me to get intimidated of drunk guy because hes big and aggressive, whem im already working with people like that..

As for whats appropriate self defense? Leave.

Different places have different laws. Here in OH, i was nearly charged with battery cause i fractured a frat boys jaw with an elbow. Incidentally i was wearing the t shirt of my association and spent most of the night talking to the officer at the station. He daid because i had training, i over did it. Didnt matter that the frat boy started the whole thing, was known by Athens PD to start fights to and attack guys to feel macho about himself. Or that fact that he hit me in the back with a haymaker that started the whole thing.

I was the one with training, i should Have been able to take him down withiut significant injury

Most of the students in iur branch schools are from WV, and in similar incidents, that issue never came up. 

It hasnt came up any other time ive used my training either,

When it cimes to legalities, it can be a wildcard. You really need to speak to lawyers or Leo's


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## Jenna (Mar 20, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> And if you had to, a decent fighter can just toy with someone in the street with jabs and/or just walk away. It's risky and can also threaten your own life, but it's also fun.


.. awesome! I had never heard a real person - I mean non-tv/movie - say this before.. I am glad I came here tonight  Jxx


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## Drose427 (Mar 20, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Tell me then, what did I just describe then?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you fight in the ring?

Im the UFC, the highest level of trained fighters, guy het hit in the nuts, take 30 seconds and their fine. Sometimes they just wave it off.

Muay Thai kick to the neck is a regular fight ender...

A "haymaker" isnt Simple Boxing. Thats a wild punch, a lack of technique. Quite far from simple.boxing, which is the most refined punching style in the world. The gym I train at as well as the other in my area dont teach it. A haymaker is an idiotic waste of energy that opens you right up.

Eye gouges rarely end the fight. All theyre going to is make the guy start hitting you harder or break the limb if hes restraining you with any sort of submission.

And dont go with the "well youre just untrained" argument, cause that comes straight from bas ruttens mouth.

Many times youve given poor advice or an opinion and several people, many who do compete, have told you its inaccurate. You do not counter with anything i
o ther than "you guys just suck" and "i do MMA"  While many of the things you say make it seem like you dont actually train


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## FriedRice (Mar 20, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> you fight in the ring?
> 
> Im the UFC, the highest level of trained fighters, guy het hit in the nuts, take 30 seconds and their fine. Sometimes they just wave it off.



A nut shot would just depend on how direct it was hit and/or how hard. Not all the time do they only take 30 seconds. And I was talking about myself taking 1-10 minutes, so obviously I'm not a UFC fighter.



> Muay Thai kick to the neck is a regular fight ender...



Not that regularly. Show me 10 Muay Thai fights where a kick to the neck ended the fight. 



> A "haymaker" isnt Simple Boxing. Thats a wild punch, a lack of technique. Quite far from simple.boxing, which is the most refined punching style in the world. The gym I train at as well as the other in my area dont teach it. A haymaker is an idiotic waste of energy that opens you right up.



This is wrong. A Haymaker is merely a looping punch that usually falls under trickery shots and do work. It's not something that you throw all the time like a jab or straight cross. They're like Overhand Rights that are used sparingly. Look at how Chuck Liddell teach this weird, unorthodox punch. 




And there certainly are Haymakers thrown in Pro Boxing.



> Eye gouges rarely end the fight. All theyre going to is make the guy start hitting you harder or break the limb if hes restraining you with any sort of submission.



Once again, I never said that eye gouges ALWAYS or even OFTEN, ends the fight. I was responding to the OP, who's obviously not a fighter and seems to be very new, so eye gouging and nut strikes are usually his BETTER weapons. 

I got eye poked in a fight and started seeing double vision, could hardly open my eye, tears flowing and in immense pain. The next day, my eye looked like a horror movie and I went to the hospital. If the doc didn't stop that fight, I would have continued but would have just got the crap beaten out of me and suffer a concussion and other injuries, on  top of the eye damage.



> And dont go with the "well youre just untrained" argument, cause that comes straight from bas ruttens mouth.



Bas Rutten don't know everything nor does what he said in this instance that you're quoting, covers every aspect and situations of fighting. You're probably talking about the PODCAST with Joe Rogan where Bas was talking about some Self Defense bozos....and where the SD girl who's part of this group, said she'd gouge his eyes in an RNC situation. Bas then said, let me put you in the RNC hold, we say "Go", you eye gouge and I snap your neck. Again, I was referring to the OP's skillset, who's a new guy...you want me to advise him to fight like Mike Tyson?



> Many times youve given poor advice or an opinion and several people, many who do compete, have told you its inaccurate. You do not counter with anything i
> o ther than "you guys just suck" and "i do MMA"  While many of the things you say make it seem like you dont actually train



I refuted all of your arguments, if I recall correctly. Afterwhich, you quit from the previous threads. But I'm up for some friendly sparring if anyone wants to. I'm currently in the Washington DC area and move around to many different cities for this job. Let me know.


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## Drose427 (Mar 20, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> A nut shot would just depend on how direct it was hit and/or how hard. Not all the time do they only take 30 seconds. And I was talking about myself taking 1-10 minutes, so obviously I'm not a UFC fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Clearly you dont watch or train muay thai, since the neck is one of the most popular targets...i just youtube muay thai knockouts on my phone and found a highlight video where 90% of then were a roundhouse to the neck...

Haymakers dont usually get thrown in boxing till both fighters are winded. Even in UFC. When the fighter do start throwing them and wild punches, its brawling not boxing. 

Again, you throw a haymaker against an opponent staying tight and disciplined, youre wide open. Hell, last saturday on UFC fightnight on fox a guy got knocked out trying to throw one, hid opponent just immediately threw a beautiful left hook and knocked him out.

The definition of haymaker is listed as a "wild swing" 

And actually i was referring to bas and joe saying, doing something like that is only gonna make the attacker snap a limb or beat you harder. 

Gouges, nutshots, bites, hair pulls, theyre completely unreliable. I mean these are the last resorts in ANY self defense class, not reliable go to. 

Actually you seemed pretty confident that the bwere going to work before.

Finally, you never replied to me in other threads. Im in OH, youre more than welcome to come train with me and my guys.


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## crazydiamond (Mar 20, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> *Im not sure how big you are size wise,*
> 
> _6'3 250. _
> 
> ...


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## crazydiamond (Mar 20, 2015)

Interesting to hear counter arguments that strikes I though would be seriously injurious might not be - anymore than a strong jab/cross would be. I just assumed punching someone in the throat would result in more serious injury.


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## FriedRice (Mar 20, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Clearly you dont watch or train muay thai, since the neck is one of the most popular targets...i just youtube muay thai knockouts on my phone and found a highlight video where 90% of then were a roundhouse to the neck...



Clearly you lack reading comprehension skills. I was responding to the OP, who says he "NEW". He ain't going to throw any good high kicks to the neck, being a NEW. I told him to go for the eyes and nuts and you say to fight like Buakaw or other PRO Muay Thai fighters? Hahah.



> Haymakers dont usually get thrown in boxing till both fighters are winded. Even in UFC. When the fighter do start throwing them and wild punches, its brawling not boxing.



Once again, reading comprehension. Brawling certainly exists in Boxing. You obviously don't fight because at certain times and sparingly,  bad techniques do work. Notice how you conveniently dodged my argument about how Chuck Liddell throws punches. I even linked a YouTube video. What's the matter, former UFC Champion and Hall of Fame(r), Chuck Liddell, not good enough for you?



> Again, you throw a haymaker against an opponent staying tight and disciplined, youre wide open. Hell, last saturday on UFC fightnight on fox a guy got knocked out trying to throw one, hid opponent just immediately threw a beautiful left hook and knocked him out.



So this fight dictates all and every instances and occurrences of fights anywhere and everywhere....past, present and future. 



> The definition of haymaker is listed as a "wild swing"



That could be one definition of it. You're just electing to not list the other definitions. What do you think George Foreman throws a lot of?  Ding-ding-ding.





 


> Gouges, nutshots, bites, hair pulls, theyre completely unreliable. I mean these are the last resorts in ANY self defense class, not reliable go to.



This is baloney. Even K-Man will tell you to go for the eyes and nuts. He just won't tell you this when I'm around to risk having to agree with me  



> Actually you seemed pretty confident that the bwere going to work before.



Of course they work, it's just a wimpy way to fight.



> Finally, you never replied to me in other threads. Im in OH, youre more than welcome to come train with me and my guys.



What city in OH?  I will pass through there, late July.  We meet up at an LA Fitness ok?


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## Drose427 (Mar 20, 2015)

Generally,


FriedRice said:


> Clearly you lack reading comprehension skills. I was responding to the OP, who says he "NEW". He ain't going to throw any good high kicks to the neck, being a NEW. I told him to go for the eyes and nuts and you say to fight like Buakaw or other PRO Muay Thai fighters? Hahah.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First off, I wasnt responding to OP. 

You said neck strikes dont work, not him. Dont deflect simply because you were wrong.

Chuck Lidell also took a lot of nasty shots trying to get those in...

As do Brawlers in the ring or cage. When the point of SD is to not get rocked, why would I advocate a move for SD when it makes it easier for your attacker to drop you?

Yes, K-Man will say that_ as a last resort._ He knows exactly how unreliable they are. 

Again, thinking theyre going to work with a drunk or a man filled with adrenaline and anger shows you've never dealt with either.

Oh, you do realize that a lot of the punches in your foreman video werent Haymakers right? They were normal crosses, hooks, and uppercuts. Only a few were  haymakers..

Like these











Again, if youre talking SD, why would you even advocate something thats just as likely to get your student KO'ed?


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## FriedRice (Mar 20, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Generally,
> 
> 
> "First off, I wasnt responding to OP.



No kidding. I said I was responding to the OP who said he was new. 



> You said neck strikes dont work, not him. Dont deflect simply because you were wrong.



This is what I said, and it was to the OP: "Contrary to most Self Defense beliefs, hitting someone in the throat or such, is not that brutal and rarely stops the fight."

He's not a PRO MUAY THAI FIGHTER. You can't expect someone who says they're "NEW" to throw KO head kicks that lands in the neck. This is absurd.



> Chuck Lidell also took a lot of nasty shots trying to get those in...



Again, can you try to keep up, please? This was in response to you arguing that Haymakers aren't legitimate strikes, not that Chuck Liddell can't get hit because he has some unorthodox punching techniques.



> As do Brawlers in the ring or cage. When the point of SD is to not get rocked, why would I advocate a move for SD when it makes it easier for your attacker to drop you?



Then why did you bring up PRO MUAY THAI FIGHTERS, throwing HIGH KICKS to the neck causing KO's in the context of my replying to the OP as a "NEW" person.



> Yes, K-Man will say that_ as a last resort._ He knows exactly how unreliable they are.
> 
> Again, thinking theyre going to work with a drunk or a man filled with adrenaline and anger shows you've never dealt with either.



Once again, try to keep up and work on reading your comprehension. Again, it was directed towards the OP being new, which would make eye & groin strikes, his best strikes. And you just made a dumb implication that eyes and groin strikes would never work against someone "drunk" or filled with adrenaline and anger".



> Oh, you do realize that a lot of the punches in your foreman video werent Haymakers right? They were normal crosses, hooks, and uppercuts. Only a few were  haymakers..



Haha, show me where I said Foreman only throws Haymakers or even MOSTLY, Haymakers. Man, how old are you? I'm starting to question whether I'm talking to a child here. Post #11, you said:

"A "haymaker" isnt Simple Boxing. Thats a wild punch, a lack of technique. Quite far from simple.boxing, which is the most refined punching style in the world. The gym I train at as well as the other in my area dont teach it. A haymaker is an idiotic waste of energy that opens you right up." --Drose427

And you just admitted that Foreman does indeed throw Haymakers.  And quite a few that were significant to knock down punches in that video were, HAYMAKERS. Notice, because I know that this is a challenge for you....but I said "quite a few" and not ALL, not many, not most, not plethora, etc.....just QUITE A FEW.



> Like these
> Again, if youre talking SD, why would you even advocate something thats just as likely to get your student KO'ed?



Show me where I said that the Haymaker is a perfect technique? Do you even understand what this means? Anyone can get caught with a counter. There's a counter to everything.

This is what I said:

"A Haymaker is merely a looping punch that usually falls under trickery shots and do work. It's not something that you throw all the time like a jab or straight cross. They're like Overhand Rights that are used sparingly. Look at how Chuck Liddell teach this weird, unorthodox punch."--FriedRice

Do you see anywhere that I said it was a perfect technique and no one can get caught with a counter while throwing them?


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## Drose427 (Mar 20, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Duh, no kidding. I said I was responding to the OP who said he was new. Can you try to keep up?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



it isnt just Pro Thai fighters......Militaries teach neck strikes in H2H. It doesnt even have to be a kick. Heck, this is even taught in Womens Self Defense Weekend classes,

Whether hes new or not, gouges and nut shots are not good targets.... any LEO or Bouncer can tell you that...Adrenaline and Alcohol can let the body do amazing things.

you said, and I quote "What do you think George Foreman throws a lot of?" When  Haymakers were the minority punch in the video you provided for "evidence"

Its not a matter of perfect technique, its a matter of teaching a tech for SD thats irresponsible, overly risky, and dangerous for SD. Its just like your, "Im just gonna jab someone coming at me  with a knife" argument. Nowhere is teaching that for SD, just like nobody is telling their students, new or old, to just eye gouge and groin shot. 

This again, makes me question that you train in anything.

You can make personal attacks towards me all you want. But quite honestly, your personality, posting style and grammar, and lack of understanding of Basic SD makes you seem like a 16 - 20 year old MMA fan who hasnt trained and  wants the ego boost.


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## FriedRice (Mar 20, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> it isnt just Pro Thai fighters......Militaries teach neck strikes in H2H. It doesnt even have to be a kick. Heck, this is even taught in Womens Self Defense Weekend classes,



First, can you respond to the Personal Message that I sent you in regards to our meeting up for some friendly sparring?

And here, if you're saying that it doesn't have to be kicks to the neck, then WHY did you tell me about how PRO MUAY THAI FIGHTERS can KO with high kicks to the neck in the first place then, and then imply that a "NEW" person should use such high kicks?

I already know that SD, Military, etc. teaches strikes to the neck. That's why I clearly said that "neck strikes rarely work" as my argument and not that they never work.



> Whether hes new or not, gouges and nut shots are not good targets.... any LEO or Bouncer can tell you that...Adrenaline and Alcohol can let the body do amazing things.



Wait so you're saying here that a NEW GUY, should strike the NECK instead of the EYES or NUTS because the EYES and NUTS are less effective targets than the NECK?  Are you serious?

And if "Adrenaline and Alcohol can let the body do amazing things", then wouldn't they do the same to the NECK? Do you see how absurd your arguments are?

And why do you keep bringing up Bouncers and LEO's. There's a ton of LEO's and Bouncers training at the MMA gyms that I train at. I also bounce once in a while for cash and fun, this ain't no big deal. I even said that adrenaline will lessen the effects of neck strikes.



> you said, and I quote "What do you think George Foreman throws a lot of?" When  Haymakers were the minority punch in the video you provided for "evidence"



That was a highlight reel, But if you watch Foreman's fights, he does throw a lot of Haymakers. You still said this about Haymakers"

"A "haymaker" isnt Simple Boxing. Thats a wild punch, a lack of technique. Quite far from simple.boxing, which is the most refined punching style in the world. The gym I train at as well as the other in my area dont teach it. A haymaker is an idiotic waste of energy that opens you right up."--Drose427

So why do you keep dodging this? Tell me why does one of the biggest ICON of Boxing, not only throws Haymakers, but he trains such technique and is known to cause KD's and KO's with them?



> Its not a matter of perfect technique, its a matter of teaching a tech for SD thats irresponsible, overly risky, and dangerous for SD.



You obviously aren't a fighter nor an advanced student, so of course unorthodox techniques shouldn't be taught to you and jsut the basics.  But you don't need to teach someone a Haymaker, it's merely a wide, looping hook and I already told you this.



> Its just like your, "Im just gonna jab someone coming at me  with a knife" argument. Nowhere is teaching that for SD, just like nobody is telling their students, new or old, to just eye gouge and groin shot.



There are videos of this on YouTube.

Once again, you're wrong. And show me where I said "telling their students, new or old, to just eye gouge and groin shot."?

Can you show me where I said this? Otherwise you're making it up or lying, again.



> This again, makes me question that you train in anything.



I question whether you train at all, also, because usually you'd have to be at least a certain age to train MMA.



> You can make personal attacks towards me all you want. But quite honestly, your personality, posting style and grammar, and lack of understanding of Basic SD makes you seem like a 16 - 20 year old MMA fan who hasnt trained and  wants the ego boost.



I feel the same way about you. The only way to find out is in July, so I'm still waiting for you to answer my PM.


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## Drose427 (Mar 20, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> First, can you respond to the Personal Message that I sent you in regards to our meeting up for some friendly sparring?
> 
> And here, if you're saying that it doesn't have to be kicks to the neck, then WHY did you tell me about how PRO MUAY THAI FIGHTERS can KO with high kicks to the neck in the first place then, and then imply that a "NEW" person should use such high kicks?
> 
> ...



I brought up pro fighter because they get hit in the groin as well. Its not a match ender. Nor is it going to stop an assailant.

I've seen forman fight, and no  he doesnt throw a lot of haymakers. Particularly for his weight class foreman threw a lot of accurate, disciplined strikes.

And striking nerves and arteries in the neck, connected to the brain, does a hell of a lot more damage than an eye gouge or groin shot. Its the same as a liver shot, like it or not, theres a high chance youre going down.




FriedRice said:


> Contrary to most Self Defense beliefs, hitting someone in the throat or such, is not that brutal and rarely stops the fight. Eye gouging works and so does nut kicks, but just the same would be a KO with one punch as they all seek the similar goal of incapacitation (even temporal) to end the situation,.



Except this doesnt result in an incapacitate

Show me one video of jabbing a knife attacker working, one.




This video right here explains why thats bad.
Thinking it isnt shows a misunderstanding of knife defense,

Heres a bunch more, and what a surprise, they arent saying to box a guy......













Never in my life, and several people here from various backgrounds, have I ever seen or heard of a gym saying that. Only you. You reasoning in the other thread as to why we didnt advocate was, "Well you're boxing sucks" Well you must be the best boxer in the US if you think you can do that....or even teach it, thats simply irresponsible...

The reason people question you having any training at all, is you say you train MMA, but your concepts of SD are off. Instead of explanations of technique you deflect, and when we've explained why your technique is bad,  you just say "well you guys must suck" 

Your beligerence shows a youthful ego,

Your personal shots, show a lack of discipline,

 and your lack of concepts show a lack of training.

Im changing gyms soon, this is where Ill be at in the summer. Youre welcome to come any day and time

The nearest LA Fitness is 3 hours away, Im not roadtripping over a keyboard warrior.

MID Ohio Valley BJJ MMA Academy


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## FriedRice (Mar 20, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Im changing gyms soon, this is where Ill be at in the summer. Youre welcome to come any day and time
> 
> The nearest LA Fitness is 3 hours away, Im not roadtripping over a keyboard warrior.
> 
> MID Ohio Valley BJJ MMA Academy



Whew finally. I'm glad I went straight to the ending and not bother with reading the rest. I hope you don't mind as it's getting nowhere. That area is not a problem. We can meet at this Planet Fitness. I have a Blackcard membership and can go to any PF and bring 1 guest for free. You can be my guest.
Planet Fitness
104 Gihon Village Parkersburg WV 26101
304.893.9800


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 21, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> A "haymaker" isnt Simple Boxing. Thats a wild punch, a lack of technique. Quite far from simple.boxing, which is the most refined punching style in the world. The gym I train at as well as the other in my area dont teach it. A haymaker is an idiotic waste of energy that opens you right up.


And not to mention just about the easiest strike to defend against.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 21, 2015)

My advice would be to avoid trouble whenever possible. If you can talk your way out of it or walk away do so. If you end up having to defend yourself and you have tried to avoid using force or someone just attacks you without warning then you have to assess the situation and act accordingly. If you do that you shouldn't have to worry too much about getting into legal trouble. Of course it is entirely possible that you can do exactly the right thing and still end up in court and that is incentive enough to try to stay out of trouble. 

If someone is trying to start a fight with you then try to stay calm and remember that you have training to deal with physical attacks and use any deescalation techniques you have learned. If you get attacked just remember your training and only do what is necessary to end the threat and nothing more. Don't be overly concerned with how much you hurt your opponent as your first duty is to your own safety.

As far a physical techniques go you have to use your own judgment and be aware of your surroundings. For example if you are on concrete or the road you might not want to slam your attackers head to the ground or you might try for body strikes rather than head strikes.

Some targets:

Throat - hard to get to can have any effect from making them angry to making them dead.

Neck - Easier to get to than the throat, a good hard knife hand strike to the side or back of the neck would probably drop most people

Eyes - usually used as either a last resort or a distraction. A serious eye injury can end a fight b ut that would be more of a life or death situation as causing a permanent eye injury in a minor altercation can land you in hot water. A minor eye injury from a poke can be annoying but will not usually stop an attacker. I was poked in the eye during sparring once or twice and all I did was close one eye and kept going.

Solar plexus - A good hard accurate shot there will drop most people but will not usually cause too much damage.

Groin - If you kick someone in the groin hard enough you will drop them temporarily but not always. I have been kicked in the groin during sparring a number of times without having to stop.It is one of those targets that if its wide open go for it then use a finisher. There are dangers for the defender kicking to the groin, most people will natural protect their groin when it is being attacked (funny story; My Hapkido instructor had me on the ground once to demonstrate a groin stomp and I instinctively closed my legs and ended up getting him in the groin instead). Also you can break toes or damage your  foot or ankle if you catch a knee instead.

The level of success you have will depend on your accuracy and how  hard you hit each target. You have to use your own judgment as to the level of force you use and what techniques and strategies you will employ and that will just come with training and experience.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 21, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> And if you had to, a decent fighter can just toy with someone in the street with jabs and/or just walk away. It's risky and can also threaten your own life, but it's also fun.


I'm sorry but that is just wrong on many levels.

If you are toying with your attacker it is no longer self defense.You are also leaving yourself vulnerable to getting surprised by a lucky shot or his friends coming to his aid and getting charged with assault.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 21, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> K-man said:
> 
> 
> > 'Toying' with someone on the street is just plain dumb.
> ...


If by balls you mean stupidity then I would agree.


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## Shai Hulud (Mar 21, 2015)

crazydiamond said:


> Interesting to hear counter arguments that strikes I though would be seriously injurious might not be - anymore than a strong jab/cross would be. I just assumed punching someone in the throat would result in more serious injury.


While a pressure point and vital target for anyone looking to down another human being, it would still talk considerable force to effect death or serious injury. A jab/cross alone may not do it. The human anatomy is wonderfully resistant and can will surprise you with how much of a beating it can take before caving under the abuse.

That being said, and all other things held equal, you'd need a clear, clean shot at the throat with maximum pressure concentrated across a small impact zone, like an elbow or a strike with the sharp of your hand. The less spectacular way of doing it would be applying a lot of pressure to the windpipe. Chokes and "ripping" grappling pulls are efficient ways by which this may also be achieved.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 22, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Contrary to most Self Defense beliefs, hitting someone in the throat or such, is not that brutal and rarely stops the fight


It's not a self defense situation but getting hit in the throat can be brutal:

Mexican wrestler dies following match with ex-WWE superstar Rey Mysterio - Yahoo7


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2015)

crazydiamond said:


> I am still fairly new but getting a wide variety of techniques from simple boxing to more brutal techniques. Some of the things I am trained in I know would seriously injure someone.
> 
> How does one learn to measure ones counter measures in self defenses in the heat (panic? fear?) of a real attack? I mean if a drunken guy throws a swing or two - how do you control to use simple blocking, and a few counter jabs, or restraint moves, versus responding out of fear or muscle memory and use moves that would be better served on a truly life threatening response?
> 
> I suspect even in a witnessed self dense situation, you might personally, morally, or legally not want to over counter? Is it just working on understanding your attacker well enough, or always starting lower and escalating  as needed? My instructors are pretty good about this - occasionally saying "you might not want to use this last move, unless you have to" but I just dont get how you handle this decision in the heat of an attack.


Get used to being hit. It helps.


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## Buka (Mar 22, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> I brought up pro fighter because they get hit in the groin as well. Its not a match ender. Nor is it going to stop an assailant.
> 
> I've seen forman fight, and no  he doesnt throw a lot of haymakers. Particularly for his weight class foreman threw a lot of accurate, disciplined strikes.
> 
> ...





FriedRice said:


> Whew finally. I'm glad I went straight to the ending and not bother with reading the rest. I hope you don't mind as it's getting nowhere. That area is not a problem. We can meet at this Planet Fitness. I have a Blackcard membership and can go to any PF and bring 1 guest for free. You can be my guest.
> Planet Fitness
> 104 Gihon Village Parkersburg WV 26101
> 304.893.9800



Gentlemen, let's stay civil and away from any posts that might be misconstrued as challenges. We're all passionate here. We all need to keep that passion in check.


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## FriedRice (Mar 22, 2015)

Buka said:


> Gentlemen, let's stay civil and away from any posts that might be misconstrued as challenges. We're all passionate here. We all need to keep that passion in check.



Is it ok if it's a mutual desire for friendly sparring? He stated in post #13 that he wanted such in other posts way before I asked him for this friendly sparring, in this thread. Thanks.


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## mwebb (Jul 13, 2015)

Responding to the original posting (after wading through the macho posturing), a couple of things come to mind:
1) As you're still fairly new, your muscle memory is going to respond to what you've known the longest...basics.  You're not going to respond with the potentially dangerous technique that you learned last week or last month.
2) Use the "keep it simple" methods...block, evade, counter.  If you can get a good kick to the lower leg in, that disrupts the person's balance enough for you to strike effectively, or just leave.  A well placed kick to the knee is very effective and a lot easier than a muy thai kick to the neck.
3) When the situation is over...LEAVE.  Don't hang around waiting for police or applause (or the drunk friends of the drunk who took a swing at you).


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 13, 2015)

Regarding the original question: it does help simplify things if you are willing and able to walk away from a fight, run away from a fight, verbally de-escalate or otherwise avoid a physical confrontation if at all possible. That means that if you _are_ in a real fight, there's a good chance it's a serious self-defense situation where you are justified in using a fair amount of force to protect yourself. Even that isn't a guarantee though. If your grandpa with Alzheimer's has an episode and starts whacking people with his cane at the family picnic, you don't want to put him in the hospital. Being able to scale your force to the situation is a good thing.

For me, it's a matter of remembering my goal in a given situation and moving appropriately to reach that goal rather than doing any particular technique sequence out of "muscle memory."  If I'm driving to the movie theatre, I take the appropriate turns to get there. I don't just blindly work the pedal and steering wheel combinations that take me to the grocery store. It helps if you train your martial arts techniques with an awareness of what the situational appropriateness for each one is. It also helps to do different sparring and/or scenario training drills with different objectives and "victory conditions", so that you have the mental flexibility to remember your current goal and work towards it rather than blindly performing techniques which are not appropriate to the situation.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 13, 2015)

Regarding the question of targets - eyes, neck, throat, and groin are all good valid targets. (Although attacking the eyes may not always be a good option for various legal, ethical, or practical reasons depending on the situation.)

My only objection is when people think that the eyes or groin are a magic "I win" button that automatically negate all the other factors in a fight such as size or positional dominance. You _might_ win a fight with a single groin shot, just like you _might_ win a fight with a single punch to the jaw. It's just not a good idea to assume that will always be the case. Just as with any other target, your odds will be much better if you develop the ability to accurately hit the target with speed and power while protecting yourself from counter-attacks.


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## Buka (Jul 13, 2015)

"I win button". 

Awesome.


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## Sapphire (Jul 13, 2015)

Gotta say, these look an awful lot like haymakers to me!  And if they beat Robert Downey Junior, they must be pretty darn useful!  LOL.

But in reality, I totally agree with Tony above me.  Your best bet is to be diligent with your training.  Set aside some time OUTSIDE OF HOME to train.  Think about it.  The average class time in an MA school is anywhere from 30-90 minutes.  There are 168 hours in a week.  Even if you attend really good classes 3 days a week, you're still only spending at most 4.5 hours of your entire week on keeping yourself protected from an assault that you can't "just walk away from" (I definitely don't advocate sticking around for a fight if you have a way out).  So make your training time sacred -- devote half an hour more to training, and not just working out, but going over combos and perhaps even getting a classmate to practice locks and throws and various situations with you.

Also keep in mind that you don't know *who* you're going to be assaulted by.  Let's say you're at work and a coworker shows up piss drunk and upset at you for no reason.  He has no inhibitions, and therefore, doesn't care if he knocks you out.  Let's _also say_ that he's done amateur boxing for quite a few years.  That could make him _more_ dangerous, or perhaps _less _dangerous, but the fact is that _you don't know until it happens._  And the way my Sifu puts it is: "when the time comes, you can't hit the rewind button to train for this situation."


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 14, 2015)

Buka said:


> "I win button".
> 
> Awesome.



Yeah!  I want one too.

First, to the OP - if he is still around.  There is good advice in this thread, aside from the psudo-monkey dancing.  The best in my opinion is to avoid a fight by leaving or talking your way out of it if possible.  The second best is don't put all your eggs in one basket.  I have seen excruciating pressure points that are not excruciating to all people.  If you use a pressure point that has always worked and run across one of those people you may be in for a surprise if you apply it expecting that you have just ended a fight and can relax.  It is the same for other strikes mentioned here; groin kicks can be devastating, but are very easy to defend.  If your application of an eye gouge or throat strike is just a little off, due to your own inaccuracy or your opponent's avoidance movements, you may end up angering your opponent instead of taking the fight out of him.  So don't stop fighting until the fight is over.

As to how to avoid hurting someone too badly, it is called control.  When I first started learning TKD, that was what we were taught to practice and learn.  Once we could control our point of maximum strength, it was only a matter of choosing the appropriate target, 1/4 inch from the opponent, or an inch inside the opponent.  For some reason, that doesn't seem to be taught any more.

EDIT:  I meant to add my opinion on unarmed knife defense.  It is very dangerous.  If you must engage, the best techniques are those that move the opponent in ways the opponent would not expect, if you can.  Always practice, practice, practice.  Ask practice opponents to try and disrupt your moves so you can learn what is possible and what needs more attention.  Practice speed and accuracy.  When you look at videos, study them well.  There are problems with the three just above.  Recognize them and decide what would need to be done to counter the problems.  And the best defense, is not knowing your opponent had a knife, because you talked him out of his aggression, grated not always easy.

Always practice control for when avoidance isn't possible.


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## crazydiamond (Jul 19, 2015)

You have a good point on what works on many people wont work on all, a few locks or pressure points or hits my instructors have taught don't work well on me - to their and my partners surprise. Even groin strikes may not work as effectively on some.


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