# Stand by your stances?



## jazkiljok (Aug 2, 2002)

With all the emphasis on good stances in training- how many found themselves using them in actual battle? 

Opinions, perspectives, anecdotes- all comments welcomed.
:asian:


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## Wertle (Aug 2, 2002)

Well, after a hard day in the battlefield.... *cough* ¬_¬

Seriously though, I don't know how the stances in my system compare to everything else, but I know that some stance transitions are *extremely* important for me.

You see, i am a very small person (though I'm waiting for that last growth spurt, then everyone will see!  Hahaha!!), so I can't rely on strength alone to put the power behind my technique.  I've been concentrating a lot on hip transitions, like between back stance and forward stance, to generate the power I would need to throw a decent punch.

I can say that at first it required a lot of thought, but I've concentrated on it for so long that now I make the stance transition without thinking, it's just a natural movement for me.  Being small, I have to focus a lot on the power I can get from my hips and my shoulders, and stance transitions are an important part of that.

Fortunately, though, I've not had to use it yet. ^_^

I don't know if that's what you were looking for, but there it is nonetheless, hehe.


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _*
> With all the emphasis on good stances in training- how many found themselves using them in actual battle?
> *



All the time.
:asian:


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## Seig (Aug 2, 2002)

Being as I am nearly wide as I am tall, I find that good solid stances are a must; especially in combat.  I have a naturally low center of gravity and by combining that with a good solid stance, it makes me very near immovable.


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## KenpoTess (Aug 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *Being as I am nearly wide as I am tall, I find that good solid stances are a must; especially in combat.  I have a naturally low center of gravity and by combining that with a good solid stance, it makes me very near immovable. *



Man you're in need of a mirror.. you're not a Box ~!!

but he's right.. you want to try moving a brick wall.. well have a go at Seig~!!!

I tend to use a  low base stance. I find it drives alot of my opponents crazy when they  are standing straight up and I'm nearly on the ground..  plus with tecs.. I tend to take a wider stance as I have very muscular legs and am a  'on my toes type person'.


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 2, 2002)

if tippy toes Castillo can sweep him...... hee hee:rofl:
or bounce off.......


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## Blindside (Aug 2, 2002)

Hi Tess,

Do you guys use leg kicks in your sparring?

Just curious, people in really deep stances often suck up lots of damage to their legs if they are allowed.  Do you think that would be a problem for you given your stated "low base stance?"

thanks,

Lamont


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 2, 2002)

:asian:


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## Klondike93 (Aug 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _
> 
> *With all the emphasis on good stances in training- how many found themselves using them in actual battle?
> 
> ...




I find I'll use a neutral bow for just about everything, so I would say I do  



:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 2, 2002)

I think the most practical of the stances become the kneel's. When you start to progress (my opinion) your mind and body just start using the close & wide kneel stances. I have found for myself that it just becomes more mobile and natural of the stances plus the upper belt material your neutral & forward bow start getting less and less. Just an opinion though.
Jason Farnsworth


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## KenpoTess (Aug 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Blindside _
> 
> *Hi Tess,
> 
> ...



Hi Lamont,

Yes we use kicks in our sparring.. I find when I fire off a round or front kick when in my low stance.. it surprises my opponent because they have no clue how I did that.. there's only a couple of us that use the low stances.. and they are great for coming up with an upper cut to the 'target area'  .. 
also when in my low stance.. with weight bearing on back leg.. I can slide into a front twist stance .. and attack.. then right back  away.. with good distance attained.. hope this helps 

Tess


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## Blindside (Aug 2, 2002)

Hi Tess,

Actually I was referring to people using legs as targets of kicks, and whether that was allowed in your sparring.  Alot of deep stances go out the window when you introduce these targets to your sparring because the front leg of a deep stance makes way too good a target to pass up.  

Leg targets are usually the thigh, inside or outside, and the calf.   

Just curious,

Lamont


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## Sigung86 (Aug 2, 2002)

Frankly, if you don't have stances and aren't losing most all of your fights... You're just lucky ... so far! 

Dan


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _*
> I find I'll use a neutral bow for just about everything
> *



Well, that is the base....... you probably don't even realize the transitions yet.  Film yourself and watch it slow mo........ 

see how many stances you can find........

Remember..... 
the definition of Stance......
It is a snapshot of motion!

:asian:


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## Seig (Aug 3, 2002)

Leg kicks are restricted to the advanced belts that can execute them without leaving someone crippled.  Whay is a low stance for me would probably be considered normal for most others.  My legs are barely long enought to reach the ground.


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## KenpoTess (Aug 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Blindside _
> 
> *Hi Tess,
> 
> ...



Ahh ok Lamont, sorry bout that.. this Old age fusion comes on slow but deadly 

as Seig says.. the upper belts are only allowed to kick below the waist..   we use leg sweeps (front leg only) etc.. I'm  more of a hand person myself, and tend to get where I'm going without having to rely heavily on the kicks.. hence my ability to fight low stance .. I use alot of body movement when I fight too.. I'm not quite sure how to explain what I mean .. hahaa.. Maybe Seig or Stickdummy or someone who's sparred me can help out here  
Since I don't 'see' myself as others do 

Tess


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## RCastillo (Aug 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *Being as I am nearly wide as I am tall, I find that good solid stances are a must; especially in combat.  I have a naturally low center of gravity and by combining that with a good solid stance, it makes me very near immovable. *



Dang it, would you quit stealing my words, becuase that is ME you describe!(minus the tall part)


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## RCastillo (Aug 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *if tippy toes Castillo can sweep him...... hee hee:rofl:
> or bounce off....... *



We're both built the same way, good looking, talented, and dirty fighters!


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## RCastillo (Aug 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
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Uh, I'm already slow, so what else do you suggest?


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## RCastillo (Aug 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KenpoTess _
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I must agree with Tess.(Very rare here)I 'd rather save the leg kicking for the higher ranked people. As it is, the lower ranked need to develop better habits first.:asian:


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## KenpoTess (Aug 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> I must agree with Tess.(Very rare here)I 'd rather save the leg kicking for the higher ranked people. As it is, the lower ranked need to develop better habits first.:asian: *



*marks date on calender.. woohoo..Ricardo agreed with me.. ~ hahaaa..  *smug grin*


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## satans.barber (Aug 3, 2002)

Hmm, we don't restrict anything from the lower belts, they're allowed to use whatever works (which is the kenpo ethos after all!). As long as they're sparring well.

Most people don't use these kicks anyway though, there's no point. We don't points spar so it'd just be hurting each other for the sake of it.

Glen usually keeps and eye on everyone though when sparring's going on, we don't just leave the lower belts in a corner kicking the crap out of eachother!

Ian.


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## KenpoTess (Aug 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> 
> *Hmm, we don't restrict anything from the lower belts, they're allowed to use whatever works (which is the kenpo ethos after all!). As long as they're sparring well.
> 
> ...



everyone spars everyone in our school.. doesn't matter what rank.. but from day one we institute the 'rules'  the chest to belt is legal target.. nothing below.. only where headgear covers. .legal target.. no back contact.. 
when I fight a lower belt.. I go according to their rank.. adjusting my speed etc to them.. and kick it up a notch as they grow in their ability.  
The upper belts sparring each other can use the leg kicks with control.. but only on each other.   I have a lovely bruise on my left knee.. no clue who gave it to me or how... but last December when blocking a kick at the college .. I ended up with the most painful case of Cellulitis that hurt like hell.. so I protect my legs with shin guards now and try not to get them where they are could be injured.

Tess


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## satans.barber (Aug 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KenpoTess _
> 
> everyone spars everyone in our school.. doesn't matter what rank.. but from day one we institute the 'rules'  the chest to belt is legal target.. nothing below.. only where headgear covers. .legal target.. no back contact..



Hmm, we don't have any rules 

Well, not biting and eye poking obviously, but all targets are legal (we do try not to strike the side of the knee as it's too easy to permanently damage it, usually an air shot is made if this is open and acknowledged with a nod by the other person). 

I suppose that way it gets you used to street style sooner. 

In our school, if the groin is open then bang! A shot goes in. Teaches you to cover up better I can tell you (obviously this is controlled and we all wear the appropriate protection but still...)

As for back contact, again that's legal. If someone turns for a spinning kick there's nothing to stop you getting a kidney shot in, again not full power or anything but it's still there if our students want to use it.

We've not had many accidents though, in 5 or 6 years I can only think of two incidents that arose in sparring, one where a really tally guy who was a complete idiot hook kicked a smaller guy in the head and kinda knocked him out, and another time when another tall guy caught a guy above the eye with a spinning outside crescent kick and split it. Neither were that major though.

I just don't think it's good to restrict the freestlye section of the art to rules, if people get into that 'holds barred' mindset it might be difficult to get out of it again if they're forced into a real fight. 

I know there are issues with insurance and such like now though that are out of some instructors' hands though. There's a whole list of  exercises we're not even meant to do under our insurance policy!

Ian.


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## Klondike93 (Aug 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
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> *
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Cool idea!! I will try that.   


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 3, 2002)

One, never hit anyone below the soles of their feet...........

Two, never kick a woman in the testicles....

:asian:


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## Seig (Aug 5, 2002)

I understand everyone's points on not restricitng targets.  Now, also remember that we live in a litigious society here in the states.  The rules are more for my protection than they are for the student's.  Were I to be sued, it would still cost me dearly to defend myself.  So I had to apply Kenpo to my Kenpo.  (The best way to defend one's self is to avoid the attack altogether.)


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## jeffkyle (Aug 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *One, never hit anyone below the soles of their feet...........
> 
> ...


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## brianhunter (Aug 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *One, never hit anyone below the soles of their feet...........
> 
> ...



If someone is hanging by thier feet is that considered below??


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## Blindside (Aug 5, 2002)

> If someone is hanging by thier feet is that considered below??



Or one of those capoeira guys doing a handstand kick....?


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## brianhunter (Aug 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Blindside _
> 
> *
> 
> Or one of those capoeira guys doing a handstand kick....? *




Hey buckling branch would probably work on an arm too!


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _*
> Hey buckling branch would probably work on an arm too!
> *



Buckling Twig........

:asian:


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## jeffkyle (Aug 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> 
> *
> 
> If someone is hanging by thier feet is that considered below?? *




That is considered to be BatMan...and you shouldn't be messing with him, because Superman isn't far away!


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## FUZZYJ692000 (Aug 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KenpoTess _
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Okay Tess, I think I can try and explain how it is to spar with ya.  See Tess to me is really quick, especially with her hands.  When you spar her she is always in a deep stance with her head leaned back out of the way.  When she comes in trust me most of the time I don't see it.  I'm sure everyone has seen some crazy person weave in and out of traffic before.  Well, that's almost like sparring Tess.  One minute she's there in front of you and the next she's weaving her way behind, next to you, over you, under you, you can never tell.  She doesn't do sweeps so much, but she does have a killer front kick that will send you flying.   I think that's about it.  Watch out for those hands.  :asian:


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## satans.barber (Aug 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *I understand everyone's points on not restricitng targets.  Now, also remember that we live in a litigious society here in the states.  The rules are more for my protection than they are for the student's.  Were I to be sued, it would still cost me dearly to defend myself.  So I had to apply Kenpo to my Kenpo.  (The best way to defend one's self is to avoid the attack altogether.) *



Yeah, these things seem to govern the way schools are run more and more these days (which is why I was on about insurance and that...), I just hope it doesn't get to the point where it's so easy to sue someone (especially in America  *) that instructor's daren't let people spar anymore.

Ian.

* there was a story on the news here last week about a couple of big American lads who were taking McDonald's, BK and KFC to court in some sort of joint trial or something because they'd both had two heart attacks from fast food they were knowingly sold, and that is classed as a _legitimate case_ over there?? Made me laugh anyway (the ridiculousness of the legal precident, not the fact they'd had heart attacks..)!


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## Kirk (Aug 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> 
> ** there was a story on the news here last week about a couple of big American lads who were taking McDonald's, BK and KFC to court in some sort of joint trial or something because they'd both had two heart attacks from fast food they were knowingly sold, and that is classed as a legitimate case over there?? Made me laugh anyway (the ridiculousness of the legal precident, not the fact they'd had heart attacks..)! *



Yes ... the whole news story is posted here  in the locker room.  A friend of
mine from England had this to say about the lawsuit.  "In England,
they'd tell them to piss off!" :rofl:


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## satans.barber (Aug 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
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Ah, didn't see that, I don't usually read the locker room. Maybe I should!

He's quite right though, it'd never get off the ground here! Same as suing someone because you got kicked or whatever in a martial arts school, if you went in there of your own free will, and fought of your own free will, I don't see where the grounding is for a claim!

Just the way different legal systems work though I suppose.

Ian.


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## Stick Dummy (Aug 6, 2002)

KenpoTess wrote: 





> I have a lovely bruise on my left knee.. no clue who gave it to me or how...




Rudyard Kiplings 5 W's.................:asian: 


  Tess has a unique stance, my guess is adapted from Seig and further refined over time and experience sparring him. Very narrow frontal profile and good mobility.  Now its just working on transitionary technique Flow,  Tessmania has NO FEAR 


  I concur with Seig on class techniques, I can pretty much at will use the infamous "Stuffed Crust Shuffle" technique against round or angled kicks in sparring classes. ( Sparring for me is to teach  less senior students skills, and maybe do some live lab experimenting once in a while.)

  From my limited time training with the Mountaineers, I find Seig and myself use a lot of leg checks that could be quite easily converted to sumfin else.

  Some of his students have also experienced running into a variation of a twist kick that is suddenly just "there" at leg level.
  It NEVER connects, but its waiting patiently in the shadows.


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## kenpo3631 (Aug 6, 2002)

I find myself using a high wide kneel allot. I see allot of the seniors doing the same. I think it is a more natural stance - allowing greater mobility. I think it is something you pick up on as you grow in the art though. :asian:


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## brianhunter (Aug 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
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I guess thats why you are good at teaching jeff.....you can put it into terms that people understand


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## brianhunter (Aug 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
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Hey Ian....did you ever read about the lady who went through a McDonalds drive thru burnt her own mouth drinking hot cofee and was awarded a few million dollars for it???? Our civil litigation courts do need some reworking currently there are alot of grass roots movements to put some integrity back into it...it shouldnt be a get rich quick scheme it should be an honest means of recovery...lawyers have taken it wayyyy too far.


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## Kirk (Aug 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> 
> *
> 
> Hey Ian....did you ever read about the lady who went through a McDonalds drive thru burnt her own mouth drinking hot cofee and was awarded a few million dollars for it???? Our civil litigation courts do need some reworking currently there are alot of grass roots movements to put some integrity back into it...it shouldnt be a get rich quick scheme it should be an honest means of recovery...lawyers have taken it wayyyy too far. *



It was her inner thighs, she was in her 80's, and it was QUITE a
few million dollars.  The initial award was for something like 75
million ..of course there was an appeal, but she still walked away
a millionaire.

Then there's the story about a guy who sued his neighbor 
because his dog bit him.  He was only awarded $75,000 because
the jury felt the one biten was PARTIALLY at fault since the dog
was tied up in the owners fenced in yard, while the one bitten
was shooting it with b.b.'s.


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## fanged_seamus (Aug 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> 
> *I find myself using a high wide kneel allot. I see allot of the seniors doing the same. I think it is a more natural stance - allowing greater mobility. I think it is something you pick up on as you grow in the art though. :asian: *



"Inside Kung Fu" in the September 2002 issue has an article about reasons to keep your rear foot's heel raised in your stance ("The Rear Heel: Driving JKD's Fighting Machine").  When you look at a high wide kneel, it looks a lot like a neutral bow with your rear heel raised -- much like the fighting stance mentioned in the article.  The raised heel allows for great mobility and explosiveness when moving.  In fencing, you'll see the same thing (at least for foil and epee, I don't know about saber).

Personally, I think keeping the heel raised gives great mobility, and it can be dropped quickly to allow for bracing.  It seems to be a little more "natural" when sparring.

Tad Finnegan


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## jeffkyle (Aug 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
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But i get fired, for a very lame reason and they had no solid proof, and i can't get my job back, or become a millionaire for it!
It all depends on what state you are in I guess.


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## Robbo (Aug 6, 2002)

Time to try your hand at teaching Kenpo for a living.


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## satans.barber (Aug 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> 
> *
> 
> Hey Ian....did you ever read about the lady who went through a McDonalds drive thru burnt her own mouth drinking hot cofee and was awarded a few million dollars for it???? Our civil litigation courts do need some reworking currently there are alot of grass roots movements to put some integrity back into it...it shouldnt be a get rich quick scheme it should be an honest means of recovery...lawyers have taken it wayyyy too far. *



I hadn't no, but's that the kind of thing I was talking about! You just can't get away with stuff like that here, even no-win-no-fee solicitors wouldn't bother with it.

It's the amounts that get me! I mean if it was a few thousand quid then fair enough, but millions and million of dollars!?

We all love to hear these stories from accross the pond though! Always good for a laugh!

Ian.


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## Kirk (Aug 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
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> *
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Yeah... no idea what state it's in, I just read about it when it
happened.  A friend of mine lost his job, for b.s. reasons too ...
no lawyer will look at him, even though they all said he has a 
case .. just not one they think would pay huge amounts in a 
short amount of time.


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## jeffkyle (Aug 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
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It is like they say....99% of the bad lawyers give the other 1% a bad name.


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## Doc (Aug 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
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Same here. if you aren't using your stances then what are you doing? Of course the better you get the less your stances are discernable in a combat situation, but if they aren't there, then you won't be either.


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## jazkiljok (Aug 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> *
> 
> Same here. if you aren't using your stances then what are you doing? Of course the better you get the less your stances are discernable in a combat situation, but if they aren't there, then you won't be either. *




EXACTLY. less discernable perhaps but still there. I posted the question because in some past discussions with other AK'ers i have heard how some felt that stances "disappeared" during street confrontations and that some contemporary self defense systems that didn't use stances were  training "more realistically"-  One went as far as to point out that he had vid tape of Ed Parker himself and his stances were hardly "discernable":shrug: 

Twas simply curious as to others experience and viewpoints.

peace.


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## jeffkyle (Aug 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Robbo _
> 
> *Time to try your hand at teaching Kenpo for a living.  *



I am working on it!


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## OZman (Aug 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Blindside _
> 
> *Hi Tess,
> 
> ...



I don't think we in Kenpo use "Really Deep" stances like the Okinowans, but correct stances; and the use of them in transitions is one of the things that makes Kenpo "Unique" IMO.


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## WilliamTLear (Aug 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by OZman _
> 
> *
> 
> I don't think we in Kenpo use "Really Deep" stances like the Okinowans, but correct stances; and the use of them in transitions is one of the things that makes Kenpo "Unique" IMO. *



Sounds like you don't have a firm understanding as to the reason why the deep stances were developed in Okinawa... The environment they were born in made it quite necessary for their "correct" use.

Do you have any information that you can offer to support your implication of the *Kenpo Way* being the correct way? Do you know why the use of deep stances came about? And perhaps why they don't apply to everyday self defense situations today?

I'm not trying to be a smart ***, just trying to understand your point of view. Your statement seemed a little shallow, but perhaps I mis-understood the source.

Sincerely,
Billy Lear :asian: 

P.S. I'm an avid Kenpo practitioner too, I just don't like discrediting something without investigating it first.


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## Sigung86 (Aug 11, 2002)

Stances in Martial Arts are really as much cultural as they are technical.  Today, we use higher stances in Kenpo than we did back in the late 60s and early 70s.  Our culture is acclimated to having more room to move, and less discipline to stand in developmental stances for the length of time required to develop the deep strong stances, and the ability to move in them.

Dan


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## brianhunter (Aug 11, 2002)

So since weve gone onto deep stances.....I think they are great for development of strength and building power, but sometimes would seem not practical (at my job for instance) How many use them in practical applications such as SD techniques?


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## Sigung86 (Aug 11, 2002)

As I started out last post.  Stances are cultural, as are the various methods of applied self defense.  Deep stances are not practical for a self defense that is not attuned to the uses of stances like that.  In Kenpo, in the US, we have, perhaps, culturally, evolved, in this case, to a higher stance and more mobility.  American Kenpo types of blocks have evolved to fit that type of stancing and mobility, as well as have the attack weapons.

If we begin to involve modifications that change zones, balance, and bases for attack, and defense, then the techniques will have to follow suite.  They too will have to change.  Blocking will have to be different, more along the lines of Tracy's Kenpo or Sub-Level 4 (which also uses stancing and base in a different and highly interesting and enlightening manner).

Why is that?  Because when you go to a denser or more solid, and lower base, you change the zones that you have to defend, and how you defend them... You change areas of attack on the opponent's body that you have access to and how you get that access.  You also change the availability and accessibility of your natural weapons.

Since the door has been opened ... Even though we have higher stances, as it were, we still depend on those stances to provide a base for balance, and delivery of power both in defense and offense.  If you don't have a good solid base, and I've said this before, you aren't delivering your power.  It then follows that you aren't in a position to defend as well.  Granted, there are many other pieces that have to be fit in there, as well.  But the base or stance, if you will, is the ... base ... Gotta have a good one.

And I won't go into kicking applications here, as I'm running out of room.... :lol:

But on a serious note ... You ought to really investigate the physiology of stances and balance, and the advanced concepts that are contained therein.  Free up your head a little bit in how you move into and out of stances.  For instance, just as a suggestion ... What happens in a cat stance (use Delayed Sword), if instead of pulling back to the cat stance, you move  your left leg up the required space to come to the cat stance?  Particularly in the area of balance, distancing, speed of power application and almost as importantly, your base and mobility?
This is, of course, assuming, that you move back to a neutral bow as you perform the initial block.  If you don't, then this won't apply, and you are not using your distancing capabilities correctly.

Now, having said that, you don't have to use the stances.  You don't have to flow through the stances, but you are missing a large part of your capability if you don't.

To the person who said he didn't think SGM Parker went through his stances, I would like to suggest that you watch the films with a little more of a weather eye.  You will see, I think, that he flowed smoothly and quickly through his stances, and preserved his base.  If the stances aren't important, why would the system have them in it?

Just some thoughts on stances.

Dan


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## Robbo (Aug 11, 2002)

> To the person who said he didn't think SGM Parker went through his stances, I would like to suggest that you watch the films with a little more of a weather eye. You will see, I think, that he flowed smoothly and quickly through his stances, and preserved his base. If the stances aren't important, why would the system have them in it?



I've seen a few video clips of SGM Parker moving in forms and with SD techs. Trust me, even with my inexperianced eye his base looked stabilized when he hit. He just didn't hold it and scream out a kiai, he used it to get the job done and not impress anybody.

Rob


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## Doc (Aug 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Robbo _
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Very, very true. The stances were there. Ed Parker emphasized stances for those who would listen, but like everything else, if you didn't listen he let you do it your way. Many interpreted this incorrectly. He would show you something once, twice, maybe thrice. After that he would walk away and say, "that's fine." Many thought that meant they were doing it correct. It only meant you were doing the best you could do.

Additionally the comment regarding "stances being culturally influenced" is right on. The myth is the deep stances had to do with standing in rice paddys etc. More accurate would be the fact they were "training vehicles" misinterpreted from the Chinese. The Chinese did have applications for low stances mostly as fluid avoidance mechanisms. But when exported the Okinawan's and others seized onto the low training stances and attempted to find applications for them that didn't exist. 

Look to classic Hung Gar and Chinese Kenpo forms like "Tiger and the Crane" for examples of training and exrcise forms. It contains deep low stances for strengthening the legs combined with breathing exercises, with repetitive hand movements in place for dynamic upper body developenent as well. A "training form" dropped from Kenpo by Ed Parker from all of his evolutionary interpretations of his art long ago.


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Robbo _*
> I've seen a few video clips of SGM Parker moving in forms and with SD techs. Trust me, even with my inexperianced eye his base looked stabilized when he hit. He just didn't hold it and scream out a kiai, he used it to get the job done and not impress anybody.Rob
> *



LOL, correct.  Remember, stances are only "snapshots" of motion and not supposed to be "posed" as we do in the learning and development of basics or for the taking of pictures.  

In the usage of the material it runs at a much faster speed and appears smooth and fluid so you may visually miss a specific detail until you slow it down and view it "frame by frame".

Good observations.

:asian:


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## Doc (Aug 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> 
> *I think the most practical of the stances become the kneel's. When you start to progress (my opinion) your mind and body just start using the close & wide kneel stances. I have found for myself that it just becomes more mobile and natural of the stances plus the upper belt material your neutral & forward bow start getting less and less. Just an opinion though.
> Jason Farnsworth *



The kneeling stances are for height adjustments and are not for lateral or linear offensive stability. It is a common mistake because it is easier than putting your heels properly down. With the heels up your strikes rely almost completely on momentum and lack the Bracing Angle present with a properly rooted stance. Therefore this heels up position fits well with competition reverse punches and lead hand techniques. This popular use of the heels up position is a testiment to how much sport qapplication has dictated and corrupted the use of basics.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> *
> 
> The kneeling stances are for height adjustments and are not for lateral or linear offensive stability. It is a common mistake because it is easier than putting your heels properly down. With the heels up your strikes rely almost completely on momentum and lack the Bracing Angle present with a properly rooted stance. Therefore this heels up position fits well with competition reverse punches and lead hand techniques. This popular use of the heels up position is a testiment to how much sport qapplication has dictated and corrupted the use of basics. *



The  same could be argued about heel down stances.    The forward bow is absolutely useless against a front kick from an angle or from an oncoming attack to the upper portion of the body, it just won't support the mass from those angles.    I've demonstrated the use of stances and for what application and find the close/wide kneel stances are just as stable as the standard forward, neutral, or reverse, and that's using them laterally and linear and find no fault with them whatsoever when used correctly.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Rob_Broad (Aug 11, 2002)

It appears that this topic has been pretty well covered.  Fom my own perspectice all I can say is the Stances have to work hand in hand with the Foot Maneuvres i.e step -drag, step through, cover step etc...


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## hand2handCombat (Aug 11, 2002)

yup, makes it much easier to fight


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## Sigung86 (Aug 11, 2002)

Actually Clyde, I think your statement is not comprehensive.  I suspect this is one of those times when you and I will agree to disagree! (That's never happened before! :lol: )

In actuality, this whole discussion is based on use of the lower "Okinawan style" or traditional Chinese stances as opposed to what Kenpo has assumed to use as it's stances, currently.

I, personally mind you, see use for both stances that you are comparing.   Neither stance will fare well against a kick coming from an angle.  However, it stands to reason that the standard bow will fare better than a kneel stance.  Reason being, again, my opinion only, that you are based better and more solidly in the bow and arrow stance than in the kneel stances.  Simply, you have more "square foot" (pun intended) on the floor, and from a physiological point of view you are, over all, better balanced and rooted, as you naturally settle in a stance that your body perceives as better rooted.

The discussion that you are trying to invoke has been going on since long before it's biggest instigator, the late Bruce Lee.  I don't think that it has ever been conclusively settled outside of any of the divergent opinions.

Having also run the gamut of both sides, I feel, personally, better off with use of the standard, traditional stances, but have on occasion, used the kneels in an offensive fashion.   The one "advantage" of the wide kneel in an offensive or defensive role is that you have more "reach", than in the traditional stances.  But once again, your whole base of power generation has changed, and you are giving up some important things to gain speed.

On the other hand, I could have missed the entire point of your post.  In that case I take back everything I said and we don't have to disagree!  

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Dan "what? Me misconstrue what Clyde said?" Farmer


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> 
> *On the other hand, I could have missed the entire point of your post.  In that case I take back everything I said and we don't have to disagree!
> 
> ...



You're right Dan, I don't think we're on the same page on this one, so why don't you get the that Netmeeting thingy going so we can talk about it and maybe even demonstrate it, like I've been asking you to do for six months now LOL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Sigung86 (Aug 12, 2002)

I surrendered on this freakin' compuker a month ago.  Nothing gets the sound running again.  I think I have to go back to ME to get it back, and it's really not worth all the heartache that comes with ME to do that EVIL thing!  Especially now that I've upgraded my other hardware to be XP compliant.

Sorry Clyde ... You'll have to wait a while to hear the dulcet tones of my Ernest Borgnine-like voice. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan



> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


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## brianhunter (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> 
> *I surrendered on this freakin' compuker a month ago.  Nothing gets the sound running again.  I think I have to go back to ME to get it back, and it's really not worth all the heartache that comes with ME to do that EVIL thing!  Especially now that I've upgraded my other hardware to be XP compliant.
> 
> ...



XP was sooooo good on driver selection....you did not read the instructions that stated you had to sacrifice a chicken (a bucket of KFC should suffice) Throw salt over each shoulder and light a candle for bill gates to get xp drivers to work???


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## jeffkyle (Aug 12, 2002)

Is the spawn of evil!!!!


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## Wertle (Aug 12, 2002)

never trust a version of Windows that includes the emoticon for someone squinting their eyes and sticking their tongue out in the title.  XP thpppppppttt!


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> 
> *I surrendered on this freakin' compuker a month ago.  Nothing gets the sound running again.  I think I have to go back to ME to get it back, and it's really not worth all the heartache that comes with ME to do that EVIL thing!  Especially now that I've upgraded my other hardware to be XP compliant.
> 
> ...




Hey Dan, shoot me an email with your phone # and maybe I can talk you thru getting the sound back.   Can't wait to hear tha Gorgnine voice teehee.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Wes Idol (Aug 12, 2002)

I'm having similar problems with my computer...sound, video.  If there is something that you know, I would appreciate any assistance.  Win 2000 is such a stable environment, but I'm getting tired of the problems.  Let me know.

Your friend, 
WI


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _
> 
> *I'm having similar problems with my computer...sound, video.  If there is something that you know, I would appreciate any assistance.  Win 2000 is such a stable environment, but I'm getting tired of the problems.  Let me know.
> 
> ...




You know my phone #   I 'm home big guy

Clyde


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## Wes Idol (Aug 12, 2002)

I just posted!  Thanks brotha, I'm calling now.

WI


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _
> 
> *I just posted!  Thanks brotha, I'm calling now.
> 
> WI *




Wife is on phone, give me a call in a few

Clyde


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## Wes Idol (Aug 12, 2002)

Not a huge deal, but it sounds like you might be an advisor on a couple levels.......myself just gettin' hitched in June.  Anyhow, I'm off to a meeting that could keep me tied up until 10:00.  Please shoot me an email about what times at night I could ring you up when I'm at my home computer.

WI


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## Rob_Broad (Aug 12, 2002)

All this talk about netmeeting and such should be in that thread not in the stances thread.  When I get a little time later I will move the last several posts there.

Sorry for any inconvience.

Rob Broad
Mt Moderator


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 12, 2002)

Cool, wanted to watch Witchblade right now LOL, it's one of my favs I try not to miss and the computer is facing the TV  YEEEEEHAAA:")

Clyde


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## Doc (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> 
> *Actually Clyde, I think your statement is not comprehensive.  I suspect this is one of those times when you and I will agree to disagree! (That's never happened before! :lol: )
> 
> ...



The point is Mr. Farmer each stance is designed for a particular application, and the original question was with regard to punching and the "heels up" position. Extending a punch and having someone push on it while in a wide or close kneel will answer that question. Also any lateral pressure on those stances will yield and unbalanced posture. the stances are designed for offensive and defesive execution on a vertical plane.


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## Sigung86 (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> *
> 
> The point is Mr. Farmer each stance is designed for a particular application, and the original question was with regard to punching and the "heels up" position. Extending a punch and having someone push on it while in a wide or close kneel will answer that question. Also any lateral pressure on those stances will yield and unbalanced posture. the stances are designed for offensive and defesive execution on a vertical plane. *



:asian: 

dan


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 13, 2002)




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## brianhunter (Aug 13, 2002)

Okay in English now for the slow people


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## Kirk (Aug 15, 2002)

Come to find out in class this week that my stances weren't
where they should be.  My knees weren't out past my toes.
So working on them in class, and every free minute outside
of class, I'm working on it.  My legs are SOOOOOOOORE!!!!

I've been brushing my teeth in a horse stance, showering
in a horse stance, in the elevator alone in a horse stance, etc.
I also kind of bounce up and down a little from a horse stance.
Just to build up the strength to STAY in any stance during
class, or in a fight.  

Does anyone have any other exercises they could recommend
to help me along?


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## Doc (Aug 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *Come to find out in class this week that my stances weren't
> where they should be.  My knees weren't out past my toes.
> ...



The best way to improve your stances is to use them. Don't move any faster than your stances will allow. Otherwise your uppe rbody begins to move independently. What we call a "disconnect." You need your entire body on EVERY move. This practice will slow you down at first. I was taught to learn, move, and teach from the floor up. All that activity of the upper body must be supported by the proper stance at the proper time.


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## Seig (Aug 15, 2002)

Something else that is failry basic yet easily overlooked is when you move, move from your hips.  I have noticed that a lot of people tend to move from their shoulders first.  I never thought of it as disconnected, but it is a good a description as any I have heard.  When you turn or rotate, do it from the hips first.  When you step, keep your hips moving with your feet.  This is a hard medium to explain it, but this is an oversimpification that I hope helps.:asian:


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## Kirk (Aug 15, 2002)

Well after doing all that practice outside of school, I've acheived
unbelievably sore legs.  We warmed up, stretched, did some
calisthenics, hit the bags, and then went to do these really cool
drills, were you'd face a partner, and one would step drag, drag
step, step through, etc forward and backwards, and the other
guy had to do a mirror image of that.  The SECOND I got into
a right neutral bo, my legs were shaking, and HURTING!   I really
had a crappy workout, my legs just didn't have it in them


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## Sigung86 (Aug 15, 2002)

Keep at it kirk... You, unfortunately, have to tear 'em up to build 'em up!  Just remember ... Pain is Joy? 






Dan


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## RCastillo (Aug 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> 
> *Keep at it kirk... You, unfortunately, have to tear 'em up to build 'em up!  Just remember ... Pain is Joy?
> 
> ...



Or better yet, Misery loves Company?:rofl:


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## Kirk (Aug 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> Or better yet, Misery loves Company?:rofl: *



ROFLMAO!!! Couldn't have said it any better myself!


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