# How would a high level Tai Chi martial artist do against a high level MMA?



## cpthindsight

Both about the same height n weight etc. 

Absolutely no rules. Eye gouges etc fully allowed. 

Would it be a case that the Tai Chi man would end up on his back unable to defend the x2 leg takedown and pounded out in no time like with many single styles vs the MMA mixed style? 

I


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## Steve

In order to play this game, I need more information on the Tai Chi man and on the MMAist.  Can you provide a detailed profile of each using the template provided below?  Try to provide as much detail as possible.  The more detail you include, the more accurate I can be with my prediction.  Thanks!

*Character Profile Worksheet*

*Basic Statistics*

Name:
Age:
Nationality:
Socioeconomic Level as a child:
Socioeconomic Level as an adult:
Hometown:
Current Residence:
Occupation:
Income:
Talents/Skills:
Salary:
Birth order:
Siblings (describe relationship):
Spouse (describe relationship):
Children (describe relationship):
Grandparents (describe relationship):
Grandchildren (describe relationship):
Significant Others (describe relationship):
Relationship skills:


*Physical Characteristics:*

Height:
Weight:
Race:
Eye Color:
Hair Color:
Glasses or contact lenses?
Skin color:
Shape of Face:
Distinguishing features:
How does he/she dress?
Mannerisms:
Habits: (smoking, drinking etc.)
Health:
Hobbies:
Martial Arts background (including length of time studied, specific styles, lineage, etc):
Favorite Sayings:
Speech patterns:
Disabilities:
Style (Elegant, shabby etc.):
Greatest flaw:
Best quality:


*Intellectual/Mental/Personality Attributes and Attitudes*

Educational Background:
Intelligence Level:
Any Mental Illnesses?
Learning Experiences:
Character's short-term goals in life:
Character's long-term goals in life:
How does Character see himself/herself?
How does Character believe he/she is perceived by others?
How self-confident is the character?
Does the character seem ruled by emotion or logic or some combination thereof?
What would most embarass this character?


*Emotional Characteristics*


Strengths/Weaknesses:
Introvert or Extrovert?
How does the character deal with anger?
With sadness?
With conflict?
With change?
With loss?
What does the character want out of life?
What would the character like to change in his/her life?
What motivates this character?
What frightens this character?
What makes this character happy?
Is the character judgmental of others?
Is the character generous or stingy?
Is the character generally polite or rude?


*Spiritual Characteristics*

Does the character believe in God?
What are the character's spiritual beliefs?
Is religion or spirituality a part of this character's life?
If so, what role does it play?


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## Mephisto

I'm not sure if Steve's questionnaire is to prove a point or if he's serious, but to me it does a fair job of illustrating the futility of these kind of comparisons and arguments.

That being said i''l play the game. Some guys will say MMA wins in the cage and Tai chi in the street in an effort to be fair and reasonable. I still would say that's probably not accurate. A lot of it would come down to the individual but I'd at least consider the Tai Chi guy the underdog and give the MMA guy the advantage. MMA has the advantage because it has been through a few generations now of testing to see what works on a resisting opponent. The MMA guy will have an arsenel of high percentage techniques to choose from, and he can cite the success that others have had in the ring as evidence that his moves will most likely work. A professional MMA fighter potentially has access to the knowledge of experience gained through generations of professional high level fighting. While the Tai Chi guy is most likely blazing new territory. His instructor and Tai Chi peers may have had some fights but they most likely won't have experience comparable to the collective base of knowledge of MMA (unless perhaps he also incorporates MMA techniques or has fought San Shou). Even if the Tai Chi guy uses foul blows i'd still give the MMA guy the advantage. That being said I'd look at a fight between an MMA fighter and just about any other single style the same way, if it is a competitive style the fighter may fair slightly better but still a pure boxer, or bjj fighter, vs MMA? The MMA fighter will have the advantage.

I've seen some nice Tai Chi before and some of the push hands competitions seem to have competitors that would compare to judo players. But if someone was looking for a style (specifically for fighting) I still wouldn't recommend Tai Chi because odds are they aren't going to be able to find a fighting Tai Chi school.


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## Steve

I was TOTALLY serious.  I don't know how much writing you guys do, but I do a lot of writing.  And the first step is to flesh out the characters. in the world of make believe, literally anything is possible.  If the OP wants me to write a work of fiction about two make believe martial artists duking it out, I need to know more about the characters involved.  The worksheet I provided is a pretty standard questionnairre intended to help the OP flesh out his story.

I'm happy to write a fictional vignette about these two, but to do so, I need more information.  Ultimately, I'm not going to put more work in our writing exercise than the OP.  If he's willing to give me characters worth writing about, I won't let him down.


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## clfsean

cpthindsight said:


> Both about the same height n weight etc.
> 
> Absolutely no rules. Eye gouges etc fully allowed.
> 
> Would it be a case that the Tai Chi man would end up on his back unable to defend the x2 leg takedown and pounded out in no time like with many single styles vs the MMA mixed style?
> 
> I



Y'know .... even the most die hard trolls / fan boys / armchair types stop by Meet & Greet to at least introduce themselves & give a little backstory ...


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## paitingman

I would put money on the MMA guy almost every time. 

It's just numbers.

How many times as the tai chi practitioner controlled and eye gouged a fully resistant opponent at full speed? 
Odds are zero.

How many times has the mma practitioner delivered a right cross to/taken down/etc a fully resistant opponent at full power and full speed? 
Probably thousands


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## Tez3

paitingman said:


> How many times as the tai chi practitioner controlled and eye gouged a fully resistant opponent at full speed?



About as many times as the MMA fighter has...eye gouges aren't allowed in MMA despite the OP stating they could use them.

Why are 'eye gouges' used as being representative of what 'hardman' fighting is? it's as if doing an eye gouge is considered something special.
I wouldn't put my money on either until I'd seen them train, fight and gauged their fighting spirit as well as their fitness.
These style v style threads can be amusing but rarely informative and usually end up in a squabble.


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## drop bear

You know in a eye gouge only fight I would put my money on a decent boxer over an eye gouge specialist.


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## Mephisto

Tez3 said:


> About as many times as the MMA fighter has...eye gouges aren't allowed in MMA despite the OP stating they could use them.
> 
> Why are 'eye gouges' used as being representative of what 'hardman' fighting is? it's as if doing an eye gouge is considered something special.
> I wouldn't put my money on either until I'd seen them train, fight and gauged their fighting spirit as well as their fitness.
> These style v style threads can be amusing but rarely informative and usually end up in a squabble.


No they don't!


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## Tez3

Mephisto said:


> No they don't!




Oh yes they do.


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## mograph

If we want to go full armchair, why don't we _name_ two fighters?


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## Steve

mograph said:


> If we want to go full armchair, why don't we _name_ two fighters?


 That's actually the very first question in my character profile!     I have to say, I'm disappointed that the OP isn't interested enough in his own thread to flesh out his fantasy.  I think he expects us to be creative for him.


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## mograph

Steve said:


> That's actually the very first question in my character profile!


Oops. Observant? Moi? 

Yeah. I don't even know if there's any point in setting up a fantasy Georges St-Pierre vs. Chen Zhenglei match.


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## Tez3

mograph said:


> Oops. Observant? Moi?
> 
> Yeah. I don't even know if there's any point in setting up a fantasy Georges St-Pierre vs. Chen Zhenglei match.




I do however see every point in setting up a GSP fantasy or is this not the place for that


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## mograph

Tez3 said:


> I do however see every point in setting up a GSP fantasy or is this not the place for that


Blow-by-blow? You're on!


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## Xue Sheng

Will there be Qi energy balls allowed..... knowing that is of the utmost importance


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## Tez3

mograph said:


> Blow-by-blow? You're on! [/QUOTE
> 
> Ooo er!


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## Danny T

cpthindsight said:


> Both about the same height n weight etc.
> 
> Absolutely no rules. Eye gouges etc fully allowed.
> 
> Would it be a case that the Tai Chi man would end up on his back unable to defend the x2 leg takedown and pounded out in no time like with many single styles vs the MMA mixed style?
> 
> I


I do some Tai Chi, not really high level as a practitioner. Also do several other arts and am rather high level compared to many. In a absolutely no rules confrontation that I am in immediate bodily danger I would create distance while also angling and use my extremely high velocity projectile weapon. Now if you are referring to an agreed upon competition, ie. NHB the average Tai Chi person would most likely get pounded out. I don't know the average age of the average Tai Chi person but world wide it is probably over 50 years of age. Most average 50 years old of any martial art in a ring or cage competition with a high level mma person would lose.


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## paitingman

I just used eye gouges as a generalization.

It just comes down to training norms. The amount of times mma stylists or boxers execute their techniques in real time on fully resistant opponents usually far outnumbers the same for a tai chi practitioner.

That being said if a tma or tai chi practitioner had trained in that way it would be very interesting to see. 
Real time, real resistance training is very enlightening and useful and cannot be overlooked when wanting to face off against someone with serious training.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Tez3 said:


> These style v style threads can be amusing but rarely informative and usually end up in a squabble.


Agree! I don't think we should get involve with style vs. style discussion. No matter what you may say, you will upset people on the other side.


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## Tez3

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! I don't think we should get involve with style vs. style discussion. No matter what you may say, you will upset people on the other side.




I don't think there's anything new to be said now that we haven't already had a thread on over the years.


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## mograph

The OP asked about a "high level" Tai Chi practitioner, so talking about training _norms_ may not be appropriate.

Besides, reading the OP, and other "white belt" posts here, leads me to believe this is another "let's go over to a TMA forum and tell the TMA guys how weak their style is" thread. Not polite, guys.


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## Steve

I don't know about you guys, but if the Tai Chi guy is a Wookie, my money's on the Tai Chi guy.


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## Xue Sheng

What if he is a Klingon.. Warf did Klingon Tai Chi you know


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## Tez3

Xue Sheng said:


> What if he is a Klingon.. Warf did Klingon Tai Chi you know




Don't ask me, I'm lost in a very nice fantasy about GSP.


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## paitingman

I think norms are still relevant to define exactly what high level is. 

High level mma is pretty clear, but there are many facets of tai chi and tma that can be used to describe high level I think. On what grounds is it high level? High level form? High level energy control? High level fighting? Tma are pretty vast and aren't as cut and dry on the surface level as western styles, so I think training, focus, and norms are useful to qualify what high level might be for some people.


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## Kung Fu Wang

paitingman said:


> On what grounds is it high level?


IMO, anything that you can apply in combat is high level, otherwise it's low level. If you can use your "single leg" to take down your opponent 7 times in a role, your "single leg" is "high level" by definition.


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## Steve

I'd say high level is anything above the waist.  Low level is anything below the knee.  So, the real question is, who would be more disadvantaged by giving up low level techniques.  I think the MMA guy.  I've never seen a Tai Chi technique that involved a low single leg takedown. 

But, if there were, would it be called something like 'repulsing the gopher?'


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## Danny T

Steve said:


> I'd say high level is anything above the waist.  Low level is anything below the knee.  So, the real question is, who would be more disadvantaged by giving up low level techniques.  I think the MMA guy.  I've never seen a Tai Chi technique that involved a low single leg takedown.
> 
> But, if there were, would it be called something like 'repulsing the gopher?'


Snake Creeps.


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## mograph

Don't forget to keep the sound on.


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## Mephisto

mograph said:


> Don't forget to keep the sound on.


Obviously that wasn't real MMA. MMA guys are all meatheads, brutes, and jerks. That guy didn't even have any visible tattoos no tribal armband showing or anything.


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## Xue Sheng

Steve said:


> I'd say high level is anything above the waist.  Low level is anything below the knee.  So, the real question is, who would be more disadvantaged by giving up low level techniques.  I think the MMA guy.  I've never seen a Tai Chi technique that involved a low single leg takedown.
> 
> But, if there were, would it be called something like 'repulsing the gopher?'



OBVIOULSY you have never heard of Flying Five Finger One Armed Eight Pole Wudang Exploding Death Touch Taijiquan


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## Steve

Xue Sheng said:


> OBVIOULSY you have never heard of Flying Five Finger One Armed Eight Pole Wudang Exploding Death Touch Taijiquan


Heard of it, but I get your point.  Although I am well trained in the Seven Pole and Nine Pole variations of the style, in all of my travels, I could never find a master of the Eight Pole.  I understand that there is only one, true heir to the secret of the Eighth Pole. 

Interesting story.  There used to be a lot more people who were well trained in the Eight Pole Wudang Exploding Death Touch.  But somewhere along the way, it was understood to be the Ate Pole, and so they did.  It was grizzly.  Like a scene out of the The Road.  Only one person survived...  known for his insatiable appetite and willingness to eat his training partners.  I'm not sure he gained any martial skill, but I sure wouldn't mess with him.


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## Xue Sheng

ahhh yes... Ate Pole Wudang Exploding Death Touch Cannibalismfu.... but that is no longer considered Taijiquan...only the true Eight Pole is Taijiquan...usually you need to learn how to shoot Qi balls which you learn form DVDs


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## Flying Crane

Before we go further, we need to know what they rolled in the following traits:
Strength
Charisma
Wisdom
Intelligence
Dexterity

And how many experience points they have earned so far, on their various adventures.  I mean, if they just rolled up these characters yesterday and the only module they've  been thru so far is the Keep on the Boarderlands, well they just haven't been around the block enough yet.  Hardly high level.  We need to know these things in order to pass judgment on how this ought to play out.

And who would be the DM on this exercise?????


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## Steve

Flying Crane said:


> Before we go further, we need to know what they rolled in the following traits:
> Strength
> Charisma
> Wisdom
> Intelligence
> Dexterity
> 
> And how many experience points they have earned so far, on their various adventures.  I mean, if they just rolled up these characters yesterday and the only module they've  been thru so far is the Keep on the Boarderlands, well they just haven't been around the block enough yet.  Hardly high level.  We need to know these things in order to pass judgment on how this ought to play out.
> 
> And who would be the DM on this exercise?????


You forgot constitution.


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## Flying Crane

Steve said:


> You forgot constitution.


Damn, I knew there was something missing.  It's been a long, long time.

But I stand by my observations.


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## Xue Sheng

You are both forgetting the importance of shoe size and whether or not they like right or left twix


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## Steve

Flying Crane said:


> Damn, I knew there was something missing.  It's been a long, long time.
> 
> But I stand by my observations.


Lol.   I didn't even ask which version, because when you said "keep on the borderlands," I know you're old school.   I got that module in my very first, basic d&d set when I was in the 6th grade, around 1981.


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## Steve

Xue Sheng said:


> You are both forgetting the importance of shoe size and whether or not they like right or left twix


Wait a minute.   Is that code?


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## Shai Hulud

So many factors to consider, including the preferences of the two high-level practitioners in question. It's a lot like asking who's stronger with regard to a professional strongman and an Olympic powerlifter.


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## Buka

In walks an MMA guy who retired in 97 and went back to the Tai Chi he did as a child, and says, "Who's the Master? 

Obviously it would be Sho'nuff.


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## Flying Crane

Steve said:


> Lol.   I didn't even ask which version, because when you said "keep on the borderlands," I know you're old school.   I got that module in my very first, basic d&d set when I was in the 6th grade, around 1981.


You and I had the same childhood.  In 81 I believe I would have been in fifth grade.


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## clfsean

Flying Crane said:


> You and I had the same childhood.  In 81 I believe I would have been in fifth grade.



1981 ... 7th Grade, new city/school & started TKD that November.


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## Tez3

1981, married with five year old son and we were packing up to leave RAF Germany to new posting in Blighty.


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## Xue Sheng

hmm...1981....I was an Auto mechanic training TKD


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## mograph

Well, since this thread has gone off the rails, not having been that stable to begin with ... Xue, have you read _Shop Class as Soul Craft_? Good book.
_
 “Philosopher and motorcycle repair-shop owner Crawford extols the value of making and fixing things in this masterful paean to what he calls “manual competence,” the ability to work with one’s hands. …With wit and humor, the author deftly mixes the details of his own experience as a tradesman and then proprietor of a motorcycle repair shop with more philosophical considerations.”_—Publishers Weekly (starred review)

Shop Class as Soulcraft Matthew B. Crawford


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## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> Well, since this thread has gone off the rails, not having been that stable to begin with ... Xue, have you read _Shop Class as Soul Craft_? Good book.
> _
> “Philosopher and motorcycle repair-shop owner Crawford extols the value of making and fixing things in this masterful paean to what he calls “manual competence,” the ability to work with one’s hands. …With wit and humor, the author deftly mixes the details of his own experience as a tradesman and then proprietor of a motorcycle repair shop with more philosophical considerations.”_—Publishers Weekly (starred review)
> 
> Shop Class as Soulcraft Matthew B. Crawford



No, I'm in IT now and we don't have souls 

I have not read that, but I am about to make an Amazon order and that has been added, thanks.

Now to get this thread back on track..... since there was no MMA, per say, in 1981 but there were Taiji masters would the length of time the art existed come into play as to who would win...AND....do both of the combatants have souls....or are one or both of them soulless freaks of nature...... all of this could make a difference

see what I did there


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## mograph

XueSheng's thread-fu is indeed strong.

I must seek revenge.


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## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:


> No, I'm in IT now and we don't have souls
> 
> I have not read that, but I am about to make an Amazon order and that has been added, thanks.
> 
> Now to get this thread back on track..... since there was no MMA, per say, in 1981 but there were Taiji masters would the length of time the art existed come into play as to who would win...AND....do both of the combatants have souls....or are one or both of them soulless freaks of nature...... all of this could make a difference
> 
> see what I did there


It depends.  What are their alignments?  Good? Evil? Neutral? 
Chaotic or lawful?  

If they are lawfully evil, they may have a soul tho it will be rotten.  If chaotic evil then they may not have one at all since I doubt they would recognize a higher power.

If they are good or neutral, I'm afraid the answer is the same.


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## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:


> It depends.  What are their alignments?  Good? Evil? Neutral?
> Chaotic or lawful?
> 
> If they are lawfully evil, they may have a soul tho it will be rotten.  If chaotic evil then they may not have one at all since I doubt they would recognize a higher power.
> 
> If they are good or neutral, I'm afraid the answer is the same.



But what if the MMA person is basically good with neutral leanings towards evil AND he has just eaten a Peanut butter and jelly sandwich while the Taiji master is mostly evil with neutral leanings towards goodness but he prefers Jasmine Green tea...and I understand the flipping these by referring to the MMA person as mostly evil with neutral leanings towards goodness and the Taiji master as basically good with neutral leanings towards evil would not only change the outcomes but possibly threaten the very fabric of the universe.... and would not even take their food and or drink preferences into account at that point because a suspect that would cause a complete breakdown of the system and we may all disappear in a poof of logic and then we would never find the answer of who would win....


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## Tez3

Peanut butter and jelly...ugh ( that's peanut butter and jam to us, jelly is a dessert), sandwiches should be proper Wensleydale cheese and home made chutney,  that's what heroes eat!


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## mograph

Cracking good thread, Gromit!


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## Flying Crane

Well, whoever had the Jolt Cola would take it all, I'm afraid.  It's as simple as that.


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## mograph

American or Canadian Jolt?


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## Steve

Jolt cola is still around?????


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## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:


> Well, whoever had the Jolt Cola would take it all, I'm afraid.  It's as simple as that.



But not if the other had just had a healthy lunch of cotton candy and pixie sticks with a Latte chaser


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## Xue Sheng

Steve said:


> Jolt cola is still around?????



Jolt Cola Long Necks

And I am as surprised as you are


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## blindsage

Lord you people are old.  I was six in '81 and I turned 40 this year.  Don't you all have some kids on your lawn to yell at?  Hey, do any of you know the form that uses this?


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## Hyoho

Steve said:


> In order to play this game, I need more information on the Tai Chi man and on the MMAist.  Can you provide a detailed profile of each using the template provided below?  Try to provide as much detail as possible.  The more detail you include, the more accurate I can be with my prediction.  Thanks!
> 
> *Character Profile Worksheet*
> 
> *Basic Statistics*
> 
> Name:
> Age:
> Nationality:
> Socioeconomic Level as a child:
> Socioeconomic Level as an adult:
> Hometown:
> Current Residence:
> Occupation:
> Income:
> Talents/Skills:
> Salary:
> Birth order:
> Siblings (describe relationship):
> Spouse (describe relationship):
> Children (describe relationship):
> Grandparents (describe relationship):
> Grandchildren (describe relationship):
> Significant Others (describe relationship):
> Relationship skills:
> 
> 
> *Physical Characteristics:*
> 
> Height:
> Weight:
> Race:
> Eye Color:
> Hair Color:
> Glasses or contact lenses?
> Skin color:
> Shape of Face:
> Distinguishing features:
> How does he/she dress?
> Mannerisms:
> Habits: (smoking, drinking etc.)
> Health:
> Hobbies:
> Martial Arts background (including length of time studied, specific styles, lineage, etc):
> Favorite Sayings:
> Speech patterns:
> Disabilities:
> Style (Elegant, shabby etc.):
> Greatest flaw:
> Best quality:
> 
> 
> *Intellectual/Mental/Personality Attributes and Attitudes*
> 
> Educational Background:
> Intelligence Level:
> Any Mental Illnesses?
> Learning Experiences:
> Character's short-term goals in life:
> Character's long-term goals in life:
> How does Character see himself/herself?
> How does Character believe he/she is perceived by others?
> How self-confident is the character?
> Does the character seem ruled by emotion or logic or some combination thereof?
> What would most embarass this character?
> 
> 
> *Emotional Characteristics*
> 
> 
> Strengths/Weaknesses:
> Introvert or Extrovert?
> How does the character deal with anger?
> With sadness?
> With conflict?
> With change?
> With loss?
> What does the character want out of life?
> What would the character like to change in his/her life?
> What motivates this character?
> What frightens this character?
> What makes this character happy?
> Is the character judgmental of others?
> Is the character generous or stingy?
> Is the character generally polite or rude?
> 
> 
> *Spiritual Characteristics*
> 
> Does the character believe in God?
> What are the character's spiritual beliefs?
> Is religion or spirituality a part of this character's life?
> If so, what role does it play?


 Lol, don't forget his ability to fight. Because that's what it about, not what art he does.


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## Xue Sheng

blindsage said:


> Lord you people are old.  I was six in '81 and I turned 40 this year.  Don't you all have some kids on your lawn to yell at?  Hey, do any of you know the form that uses this?



Now that you mention it yes....... HEY YOU!!!!!!! Get the heck off my lawn you young wiper snapper...and take you ding dang walker with ya....mumble mumble...kids today......mumble....no respect......I otta....YEAH....DON'T MAKE ME COME DOWN THERE!!!!!!! gall dang wet behind the ears....mumble..... no respect... mumble mumble...probably all hoped up on goofballs anyway....... now where'd I leave that dang cane of mine....... time to go watch my shows anyway...BAH!!!!! kids today


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## donald1

my grandpa does that a lot... except he is usualy the hees the only one in the room... i remember once he looked in the mirror and thought some old guy was trespassing


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## punisher73

Just for discussion.  I remember seeing this video on Chen Tai Chi awhile back.


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## Xue Sheng

He is 20th generation Chen family, I'm thinking Chen Bing, but I could be wrong. The 20th generation guys are real big on Sanda and Shuiajiao in Chen style. Basically he had the big guys center the entire time. There are a few videos out there of Chen 20th training at Chenjaigou and on competition, if you can find those they get pretty hard and rather nasty.


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## Hyoho

Considering this is a martial arts forum I'm amazed how many disrespecting a'holes there are in here towards those that have practiced, taught and semi retired/retired. Some of those getting older have done more MA than


blindsage said:


> Lord you people are old.  I was six in '81 and I turned 40 this year.  Don't you all have some kids on your lawn to yell at?  Hey, do any of you know the form that uses this?


Considering this is an MA forum some of you guys show an amazing amount of disrespect for older people.


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## Xue Sheng

Hyoho said:


> Considering this is a martial arts forum I'm amazed how many disrespecting a'holes there are in here towards those that have practiced, taught and semi retired/retired. Some of those getting older have done more MA than
> 
> Considering this is an MA forum some of you guys show an amazing amount of disrespect for older people.



Considering I am over a half century old, been in MA for over 40 years,  spent considerable time on crutches and using a cane not to long ago, have bad knees a arthritic hip and a shoulder to match and I. train with a guy who is in his late 70s who can throw me around like a rag doll all I can say is I thought it was funny and you really need to lighten up.....


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## mograph

Yeah, I think that because Blindsage is part of the in-group (as far as I can tell), the rest of us took it as a poke from "one of us." No offense taken, so it's cool. (I'm 55.) But thanks for the defence. (... with no irony, no sarcasm from me.)

Context is everything, ain't it?


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## zzj

Xue Sheng said:


> He is 20th generation Chen family, I'm thinking Chen Bing, but I could be wrong. The 20th generation guys are real big on Sanda and Shuiajiao in Chen style. Basically he had the big guys center the entire time. There are a few videos out there of Chen 20th training at Chenjaigou and on competition, if you can find those they get pretty hard and rather nasty.



That's Chen Ziqiang in the clip. He's smaller in stature than his cousin Chen Bing, and in this case he weighs about half as much as the Wrestler guy he is throwing around.


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## Xue Sheng

zzj said:


> That's Chen Ziqiang in the clip. He's smaller in stature than his cousin Chen Bing, and in this case he weighs about half as much as the Wrestler guy he is throwing around.



Thank You, I was not sure, I don't know all the 20th Gen names. But I have seen him before, I believe he was in one of those TV matches in China too and he controlled that match just as easily


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## Steve

punisher73 said:


> Just for discussion.  I remember seeing this video on Chen Tai Chi awhile back.


Neat video.  Is there any context for,this?


----------



## Hanzou

Steve said:


> Neat video.  Is there any context for,this?



While "neat", I don't find it very reliable. According to the comments (and how the "wrestler" threw himself backwards), it was just a very fancy demonstration.


----------



## K-man

Tai Chi name that I would put forward is Erle Montaigue. Unfortunately he passed away just over four years ago. My regret is I never got the chance to train with him.

As for 1981 ... that was about the time I started training with my, then seven year old, son. Seems like not so long ago really.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> While "neat", I don't find it very reliable. According to the comments (and how the "wrestler" threw himself backwards), it was just a very fancy demonstration.



From my instruction of wrestling. Which is brief but high quality. They don't stand like that or wrestle like that. 

Because I did and have gotten in trouble for it.


----------



## drop bear

I showed that vid to my coach and he was like nup.  That isn't legit wrestling.


----------



## zzj

Hanzou said:


> While "neat", I don't find it very reliable. According to the comments (and how the "wrestler" threw himself backwards), it was just a very fancy demonstration.



I take issue with that comment about the wrestler throwing himself backwards.

The alleged incident is probably referring to 0.50 in the video, take a look for yourself and see if you agree with the comment.

For me the comment is obviously wrong due to 3 main reasons:

1) The wrestler was thrown backwards like a ragdoll, if you threw yourself backwards you wouldn't be able to replicate the ragdoll quality and the dynamics of the fall would look very different overall. To fall backwards as he did in the video, there would have to be a significant external force.

2) To non Tai Chi practitioners, it would seem like there was little in the way of any real strike that would have resulted in such a dramatic fall, but to us Tai Chi nuts the move was very obviously a 'Kao'. The thing with 'Internal' MA's like Tai Chi is not that we use some mysterious energy to throw chi balls and such (although for some reason that is still an oddly popular misconception), but that the focus and intricacies of our MA is not apparent externally, but the effect is often disproportionate to the move.

EDIT: just to add.. there is a lot more going on during the session that meets the eye, if you get in a clinch with an accomplished Tai Chi player you will immediately feel that your balance is taken from you, there would be a lot of back and forth between the 2 of them even without externally visible moves being attempted.

3) There are many videos of the person (Chen Ziqiang) engaging in tuishou (push hands) sparring sessions on his overseas visits very much like this one. The Kao move is used on numerous occasions to similar effect.

Lastly, also to address Steve's question, the wrestler is also a Tai Chi student. They were not engaged in a demonstration but Tui Shou sparring, and as I have mentioned, there are numerous other videos of other similar tuishou sparring videos on youtube, just have a look...

I would only agree with the sentiment that labeling the video as 'Wrestling vs Tai Chi' is somewhat misleading, when in fact it is a Tai Chi student with wrestling background engaged in sparring with his Teacher who happens to be one of the best Chen Style Tai Chi exponents of his generation.


----------



## Hanzou

zzj said:


> I would only agree with the sentiment that labeling the video as 'Wrestling vs Tai Chi' is somewhat misleading, when in fact it is a Tai Chi student with wrestling background engaged in sparring with his Teacher who happens to be one of the best Chen Style Tai Chi exponents of his generation.



So after that lengthy post you admit that this was nothing more than a demonstration, and that the entire title of the video is misleading? Given that this guy was a student of the Taiji exponent, why would we believe that this guy was doing everything in his power to overpower his instructor? We've already established that the guy wasn't really wrestling, and his reactions to the impacts were laughable.

I'm not going to argue what you see versus what I see. My issue is the misleading title and content.


----------



## mograph

The movements of proficient Taijiquan practitioners often have an effect without the large displacement (e.g. a big windup or follow-through) we normally expect from a move. In other words, a short push can send an opponent a long way. This isn't magic or energy balls, this is efficiency and distribution of effort throughout the body.


----------



## zzj

Hanzou said:


> So after that lengthy post you admit that this was nothing more than a demonstration, and that the entire title of the video is misleading? Given that this guy was a student of the Taiji exponent, why would we believe that this guy was doing everything in his power to overpower his instructor? We've already established that the guy wasn't really wrestling, and his reactions to the impacts were laughable.
> 
> I'm not going to argue what you see versus what I see. My issue is the misleading title and content.



Firstly, my issue was with the assertion (from the video comment) that he was throwing himself backwards deliberately, as I stated in the first statement of my post. 

I have no problem with the opinion that the title was misleading.

Secondly, it is a sparring session, not a demonstration. I do not know how it is in your dojo or school, but in both my judo and taichi classes, if you do not try earnestly when you have a chance to do randori/tuishou with your teacher, then you are simply wasting each other's time.

And why is it that I can assert it is not a demonstration?

1) This video has been posted under different descriptions, such as ....






...that reflect the context better.

2) Similar videos that record other seminar sessions more comprehensively ....

For example, these videos for 1 particular seminar.
















... I'm not going to post all 7 videos. 

Or this video from Denver..







These are all sparring videos, the only difference is, the 'wrestler' video was conducted in a venue with mats, which allowed for the full execution of throws, strikes, takedowns, resulting in greater effects.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Hanzou said:


> While "neat", I don't find it very reliable. According to the comments (and how the "wrestler" threw himself backwards), it was just a very fancy demonstration.



Not arguing either way but this is posted under the video on YouTube



> Video by M Christovano Pacelli‎. Here's his few words regarding the event in this video:
> 
> Well, in the immortal words of my belated teacher Michael Rosario-Graycar... I was concussed!
> 
> Definitely puked a few times and am still a bit blurry, but here is something to spread out to everyone. Please keep in mind that, as far as I could tell, he was using about 50% of his power with me (The highest he has ever used on a video... everything else your going to see from the weekend was at the lower level of his fajin. Chen Laoshi was a gentleman for not hitting me with every strike in the book.
> 
> That is about all your going to see (Litigation and Liability are not words that go well with this stuff). The things you see him doing were thoroughly reviewed. Since he knew I wouldn't bee suing him... I got the brunt. But the man will take on any challenger, and use full force (in China!!) height and weight not important.
> 
> I want to thank all of the wonderful practitioners that supported this seminar. Everyone knows I don't have a school, and I don't teach... but I will bang!!! I am happy to offer my body on the alter of Chen Taijiquan. I can't list everyone, but you know who you are and I will continue to make the effort. You are all worth it!
> 
> As far as the ensuing comments... I am in a lot of pain, and seeing a little funny, but I can remember using all of my force. The man is no joke! Please enjoy. I need to lay down now..!



Also note that Taijiquan is not wrestling it is Taijiquan and in it you find things like Shuaijiao which is the closest you will get to wrestling. Also if you are so inclined there are videos out there of Chen Ziqiang in competition in China. I have no plans to supply links because frankly it really does not matter much to me since the entire premise of this post, as set up by the OP, is silly and not to be taken seriously IMO


----------



## Steve

I actually like the video.  I don't know how much wrestling training (or tai chi training, for that matter) the student has.  He seems to move okay, and I recognize the techniques he's attempting.  On the down side, he doesn't seem to commit to any take down and so never progresses past the entry (ie, at one point he drops about 5 inches for a leg and then stops, and at another he half heartedly attempts an arm drag), and his cardio is (remarkably) worse than mine!  That's saying a lot.  He seems to be relying a lot on his size and weight, rather than technique.  Which kind of undermines any useful comparison.  In other words, a high level A versus a low level B is likely to make "B" look inneffective.

The other guy, the teacher, looks pretty solid.  His positioning is good and his hands are always in a good place to keep the big dude at range.  Where I get a little wonky is when the big guy goes flying.  I personally believe that he's "going" with the technique.  how much?  I don't know.  But some, I'm sure.


----------



## Xue Sheng

There is something else to think about here, none of this is fighting, because if it was, Chen stylist will go for the knees if they feel it is the thing to do at the time, they train it in some lineages (Chen Family, and he is Chen family) in their push hands and tuishou


----------



## zzj

Steve said:


> I actually like the video.  I don't know how much wrestling training (or tai chi training, for that matter) the student has.  He seems to move okay, and I recognize the techniques he's attempting.  On the down side, he doesn't seem to commit to any take down and so never progresses past the entry (ie, at one point he drops about 5 inches for a leg and then stops, and at another he half heartedly attempts an arm drag), and his cardio is (remarkably) worse than mine!  That's saying a lot.  He seems to be relying a lot on his size and weight, rather than technique.  Which kind of undermines any useful comparison.  In other words, a high level A versus a low level B is likely to make "B" look inneffective.
> 
> The other guy, the teacher, looks pretty solid.  His positioning is good and his hands are always in a good place to keep the big dude at range.  Where I get a little wonky is when the big guy goes flying.  I personally believe that he's "going" with the technique.  how much?  I don't know.  But some, I'm sure.



I don't blame you for feeling a bit wonky about it, the aftermath of many Tai Chi moves have the fortunate/unfortunate distinction of looking somewhat fake. However, it is a sparring session, not a competition or life/death struggle, in that sense both sides would reasonably hold back or follow through to a degree.


----------



## Transk53

I have seen Man of Tai Chi and that was real. The MMA guy would have his backside handed to him on a spoon lol.


----------



## mograph

Transk53 said:


> I have seen Man of Tai Chi and that was real. The MMA guy would have his backside handed to him on a spoon lol.


----------



## Steve

zzj said:


> I don't blame you for feeling a bit wonky about it, the aftermath of many Tai Chi moves have the fortunate/unfortunate distinction of looking somewhat fake. However, it is a sparring session, not a competition or life/death struggle, in that sense both sides would reasonably hold back or follow through to a degree.


I'd be interested in feeling it for myself.  The only way I'd know for sure is if it's done to me.  I get that they're holding back somewhat, and at 45, believe me, I'm not interested in breaking myself or anyone else.

I'll say this, though.  This is the first video of a tai chi guy I've ever seen where I could think, "Yeah, that looks like it could work."  I don't know about all of it, but the way he moves, where he puts his hands, and most importantly, where his hips are in relation to the big guy, all make sense to me.  It looks like he's favoring technique over mystical powers, and his techniques seem like they're grounded in reality.  It looks less like chi balls and trickery and really resembles a high level judoka sparring with a lower level judoka who used to wrestle (and needs to run a few laps  )


----------



## Xue Sheng

Steve said:


> I'd be interested in feeling it for myself.  The only way I'd know for sure is if it's done to me.  I get that they're holding back somewhat, and at 45, believe me, I'm not interested in breaking myself or anyone else.
> 
> I'll say this, though.  This is the first video of a tai chi guy I've ever seen where I could think, "Yeah, that looks like it could work."  I don't know about all of it, but the way he moves, where he puts his hands, and most importantly, where his hips are in relation to the big guy, all make sense to me.  It looks like he's favoring technique over mystical powers, and his techniques seem like they're grounded in reality.  It looks less like chi balls and trickery and really resembles a high level judoka sparring with a lower level judoka who used to wrestle (and needs to run a few laps  )



He is a Chen guy and a 20th generation Chen guy, and a damn good fighter trying to make his name with his family style, but he is focusing more on Sanshou than Taiji. My Taiji sifu is in his 70s, and a yang guy and there are no  mystical powers, and his technique is grounded in reality and he will not look like that at all. He will be relaxed and looked relaxed (disturbingly so) and he will not force anything nor fight strength with strength. Would he stand there and challenge that guy, hell no, he's 70. however attack him and you might think it is  mystical power not grounded in reality but you could end up on the floor just as easily. All he is doing is relaxing, finding your center and redirecting and his qinna is the best I have ever come across.

Basically just because you can't see it and it does not fit your style to make you feel it will work, does not make it  unrealistic and mystical powers.


----------



## Hanzou

zzj said:


> Firstly, my issue was with the assertion (from the video comment) that he was throwing himself backwards deliberately, as I stated in the first statement of my post.



And frankly he was. He was also exaggerating the impacts. Sorry, but I don't buy that this guy was getting internally damaged by a guy knocking him down, or shoulder throwing him on a matted surface.



> I have no problem with the opinion that the title was misleading.
> 
> Secondly, it is a sparring session, not a demonstration. I do not know how it is in your dojo or school, but in both my judo and taichi classes, if you do not try earnestly when you have a chance to do randori/tuishou with your teacher, then you are simply wasting each other's time.



In my school when we spar, we utilize our entire toolkit. In that vid, the wrestler never attacked the legs or the hip area, he never went for an arm drag, he never attempted to break the other person's structure by putting his hand on the back of the head or neck. The wrestler went for a high clinch every time.

Now, when I demonstrated a move with my instructor, he told me what he wanted me to do in order to demonstrate a principle. When I spar against my instructor, I use everything in my bag of tricks to subdue him.

That video classifies as a demonstration.



> These are all sparring videos, the only difference is, the 'wrestler' video was conducted in a venue with mats, which allowed for the full execution of throws, strikes, takedowns, resulting in greater effects.



Where were the strikes and takedowns? All I saw was a big guy trying to muscle down a smaller guy and get thrown, or pushed backwards. Don't get me wrong, its a cool demonstration, but to call that a sparring session is laughable.


----------



## blindsage

Hyoho said:


> Considering this is a martial arts forum I'm amazed how many disrespecting a'holes there are in here towards those that have practiced, taught and semi retired/retired. Some of those getting older have done more MA than
> 
> Considering this is an MA forum some of you guys show an amazing amount of disrespect for older people.


Really?  Considering this is a forum of mostly adults, some of you guys show an amazing amount of lack of humor and grown up ability to decipher context.  But it's ok, the people who were supposed to get it got it.


----------



## Steve

Hanzou said:


> And frankly he was. He was also exaggerating the impacts. Sorry, but I don't buy that this guy was getting internally damaged by a guy knocking him down, or shoulder throwing him on a matted surface.
> 
> In my school when we spar, we utilize our entire toolkit. In that vid, the wrestler never attacked the legs or the hip area, he never went for an arm drag, he never attempted to break the other person's structure by putting his hand on the back of the head or neck. The wrestler went for a high clinch every time.
> 
> Now, when I demonstrated a move with my instructor, he told me what he wanted me to do in order to demonstrate a principle. When I spar against my instructor, I use everything in my bag of tricks to subdue him.
> 
> That video classifies as a demonstration.
> 
> Where were the strikes and takedowns? All I saw was a big guy trying to muscle down a smaller guy and get thrown, or pushed backwards. Don't get me wrong, its a cool demonstration, but to call that a sparring session is laughable.


 
I agree that there were some times he was at least failing to engage in the clinch, and he seemed to go with the throws a bit.  But I did see him move a couple times for an arm drag.  Frankly, it seemed very much like what I've seen a lot of big, out of shape wrestlers do, which is to work mostly from the clinch.   Good observation regarding the head control, but mostly, it looked like he was working for underhooks and just really failing to commit. 

Laughable seems a little overstated to me.  To me, this is about what i'd expect to see in medium intensity sparring.  It doesn't look like big guy was discouraged from using all of his tools.  Rather, it looks like the big guy is just lacking some fundamental tools to use.

How good is the little guy?  Really hard to tell in this video, but I didn't see anything that screamed shenanigans to me.


----------



## Steve

blindsage said:


> Really?  Considering this is a forum of mostly adults, some of you guys show an amazing amount of lack of humor and grown up ability to decipher context.  But it's ok, the people who were supposed to get it got it.


 I got it, but then I put some ointment on it and it went away.   What were we talking about again?


----------



## Hanzou

Steve said:


> I agree that there were some times he was at least failing to engage in the clinch, and he seemed to go with the throws a bit.  But I did see him move a couple times for an arm drag.  Frankly, it seemed very much like what I've seen a lot of big, out of shape wrestlers do, which is to work mostly from the clinch.   Good observation regarding the head control, but mostly, it looked like he was working for underhooks and just really failing to commit.
> 
> Laughable seems a little overstated to me.  To me, this is about what i'd expect to see in medium intensity sparring.  It doesn't look like big guy was discouraged from using all of his tools.  Rather, it looks like the big guy is just lacking some fundamental tools to use.
> 
> How good is the little guy?  Really hard to tell in this video, but I didn't see anything that screamed shenanigans to me.


 
Well saying that this guy is a "wrestler" when he's clearly lacking any wrestling skill, and is a student of the person tossing him around, I would definitely say there's some shenanigans afoot. Also having this guy pretending to be significantly injured by shoves and a shoulder throw is also purely shenanigans. If they had simply said that this is Taiji against some big guy off the street, I'd have no problem with it. However the video is propped up as an expert in one style versus an expert in another style, and that's simply misleading.

I also don't agree that its sparring. It looks like more of a demonstration of a principle because neither is going all out with their entire toolkit. When I spar my instructor, I'm using everything to beat him. If he's using me to demonstrate a technique to the class, I'll moderately resist while he chokes me, throws me, locks me up, or something.

In the end, there's simply no reason for the deception. That's unfortunately been the MO of many Kung Fu styles trying to prove their relevancy in the modern era. They need to prove their practicality to the world at large, but there's always some sort of catch, something hiding behind the curtain.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> Well saying that this guy is a "wrestler" when he's clearly lacking any wrestling skill, and is a student of the person tossing him around, I would definitely say there's some shenanigans afoot. Also having this guy pretending to be significantly injured by shoves and a shoulder throw is also purely shenanigans. If they had simply said that this is Taiji against some big guy off the street, I'd have no problem with it. However the video is propped up as an expert in one style versus an expert in another style, and that's simply misleading.
> 
> I also don't agree that its sparring. It looks like more of a demonstration of a principle because neither is going all out with their entire toolkit. When I spar my instructor, I'm using everything to beat him. If he's using me to demonstrate a technique to the class, I'll moderately resist while he chokes me, throws me, locks me up, or something.
> 
> In the end, there's simply no reason for the deception. That's unfortunately been the MO of many Kung Fu styles trying to prove their relevancy in the modern era. They need to prove their practicality to the world at large, but there's always some sort of catch, something hiding behind the curtain.


Where have you been?  We've missed you.


----------



## zzj

Hanzou said:


> Well saying that this guy is a "wrestler" when he's clearly lacking any wrestling skill, and is a student of the person tossing him around, I would definitely say there's some shenanigans afoot. Also having this guy pretending to be significantly injured by shoves and a shoulder throw is also purely shenanigans. If they had simply said that this is Taiji against some big guy off the street, I'd have no problem with it. However the video is propped up as an expert in one style versus an expert in another style, and that's simply misleading.
> 
> I also don't agree that its sparring. It looks like more of a demonstration of a principle because neither is going all out with their entire toolkit. When I spar my instructor, I'm using everything to beat him. If he's using me to demonstrate a technique to the class, I'll moderately resist while he chokes me, throws me, locks me up, or something.
> 
> In the end, there's simply no reason for the deception. That's unfortunately been the MO of many Kung Fu styles trying to prove their relevancy in the modern era. They need to prove their practicality to the world at large, but there's always some sort of catch, something hiding behind the curtain.



Again. The title of the video IS misleading. But any shenanigans lie on the part of the poster, who is a 3rd party.

Different MA's have different 'Sparring' formats: you don't grapple in Tae kwon do, karate or Muay Thai... You don't exchange punches and kicks in judo, or for that matter in wrestling. The type of sparring you saw in the video is called tuishou, which is generally a standing affair without punches or kicks, with maybe allowances for secondary strikes like shoulder strikes as was seen. There is sanshou sparring in tai chi too which allows for a more complete range of techniques, but that is not what was going on in the video.

Lastly, whether the guy was significantly injured by the 'shove'. What I see in the video is that he fell in an awkward manner which knocked the wind out of him, something which was exacerbated by his size.


----------



## Hanzou

zzj said:


> Again. The title of the video IS misleading. But any shenanigans lie on the part of the poster, who is a 3rd party.
> 
> Different MA's have different 'Sparring' formats: you don't grapple in Tae kwon do, karate or Muay Thai... You don't exchange punches and kicks in judo, or for that matter in wrestling. The type of sparring you saw in the video is called tuishou, which is generally a standing affair without punches or kicks, with maybe allowances for secondary strikes like shoulder strikes as was seen. There is sanshou sparring in tai chi too which allows for a more complete range of techniques, but that is not what was going on in the video.



Isn't Tuishou Pushing Hands? I've seen some pushing hand drills, and they don't look like that.



> Lastly, whether the guy was significantly injured by the 'shove'. What I see in the video is that he fell in an awkward manner which knocked the wind out of him, something which was exacerbated by his size.



Well, you can see whatever you wish to see. From what I saw, the level of impact didn't justify that level of response. I've seen novices in Judo and Aikido hit the ground harder than that, and pop right back up again regardless of size.


----------



## Tez3

zzj said:


> you don't grapple in Tae kwon do, karate or Muay Thai...



Actually...in some karate we do.  I hesitate to post this because there's usually a lot of 'stuff' coming from non karateka when we say this and it gets circular ( a nicer way to say it goes to hell in a handcart lol) and there's enough 'circular' arguments going on here at the moment.


----------



## zzj

Hanzou said:


> Isn't Tuishou Pushing Hands? I've seen some pushing hand drills, and they don't look like that.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you can see whatever you wish to see. From what I saw, the level of impact didn't justify that level of response. I've seen novices in Judo and Aikido hit the ground harder than that, and pop right back up again regardless of size.



There are tuishou drills but there is also free sparring in tuishou. There are numerous videos of tuishou sparring sessions and competitions on YouTube.

There are instances when one takes a bad fall, whether or not that was the case in this video I cannot say for sure although it looks possible to me.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> Isn't Tuishou Pushing Hands? I've seen some pushing hand drills, and they don't look like that.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you can see whatever you wish to see. From what I saw, the level of impact didn't justify that level of response. I've seen novices in Judo and Aikido hit the ground harder than that, and pop right back up again regardless of size.


And in your vast experience in push hands, you have seen it all?  You are the expert?  

Now THAT is funny stuff.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Hanzou said:


> Isn't Tuishou Pushing Hands? I've seen some pushing hand drills, and they don't look like that.



Then you have not really ever seen much tuishou then have you.

stationary, 1-step, 3-step, 4-corners, with applications, free style...... seen those have you?


----------



## mograph

Hanzou said:


> Isn't Tuishou Pushing Hands? I've seen some pushing hand drills, and they don't look like that.


Try this: it's on Facebook, so YMMV.
Gawain Siu Facebook


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Actually...in some karate we do.  I hesitate to post this because there's usually a lot of 'stuff' coming from non karateka when we say this and it gets circular ( a nicer way to say it goes to hell in a handcart lol) and there's enough 'circular' arguments going on here at the moment.



You grapple in muay Thai as well.


----------



## K-man

mograph said:


> Try this: it's on Facebook, so YMMV.
> Gawain Siu Facebook


Loved the way he kept his structure while destroying the structure of his opponent.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Chen Ziqiang San shou


----------



## mograph

Well, yeah, but ... What if the MMA guy had a pointed stick?


----------



## Xue Sheng

I'm act


mograph said:


> Well, yeah, but ... What if the MMA guy had a pointed stick?




I'm actually more concerned about a bunch Raspberries


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Since some folks didn't care for the clip of a Tai Chi master grappling with a bigger, but relatively unskilled wrestler, I'll just post this video of "Tuishou" Chen Chi Cheng working takedowns with Marcelo Garcia:




Marcelo is dominant, but I'm not going to cite that as proving the superiority of BJJ. Marcelo Garcia is a world-class grappler regardless of system. As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Chen demonstrates genuine skill and does much better than I would have done against Marcelo.


----------



## mograph

Tony Dismukes said:


> Marcelo is dominant, but I'm not going to cite that as proving the superiority of BJJ. Marcelo Garcia is a world-class grappler regardless of system. As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Chen demonstrates genuine skill and does much better than I would have done against Marcelo.


Good clip. So, would "it depends on the fighter" answer the original question? 

I hope so.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Tony Dismukes said:


> Since some folks didn't care for the clip of a Tai Chi master grappling with a bigger, but relatively unskilled wrestler, I'll just post this video of "Tuishou" Chen Chi Cheng working takedowns with Marcelo Garcia:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marcelo is dominant, but I'm not going to cite that as proving the superiority of BJJ. Marcelo Garcia is a world-class grappler regardless of system. As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Chen demonstrates genuine skill and does much better than I would have done against Marcelo.



That's awesome, by the way Chen Chi Cheng is the Tai Chi World Cup Champion in Tuishou. I do not think he is a Chen taijiquan family member, but I could be wrong there


----------



## zzj

Tony Dismukes said:


> Since some folks didn't care for the clip of a Tai Chi master grappling with a bigger, but relatively unskilled wrestler, I'll just post this video of "Tuishou" Chen Chi Cheng working takedowns with Marcelo Garcia:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marcelo is dominant, but I'm not going to cite that as proving the superiority of BJJ. Marcelo Garcia is a world-class grappler regardless of system. As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Chen demonstrates genuine skill and does much better than I would have done against Marcelo.



It's actually great to see a video like this. I'm all for more interaction with other arts, and it shows that us tai chi guys have to learn and develop the strategies to counter the strengths of other well tested arts like BJJ in this case. 

Overall it was still a credible performance on the part of Chen Chi Cheng (I'm quite sure he is not a Chen Family Member; Chen is one of the most common Chinese Surnames so it wouldn't be a surprise). He executed a few pushes/moves that would have resulted in a win in a tuishou match, but outside of tuishou rules they wouldn't seem quite as significant.


----------



## Xue Sheng

I really like watching that clip, the atmosphere great, martial artists being martial artists and enjoying what they are doing and neither trying to show off and the the interaction between the two, relaxed, happy and learning was great. That is the way it should be.

I would also like to add watching that clip; Marcelo Garcia is very good at maintaining and controlling his own center, a rather awesome display of skill actually


----------



## Steve

Xue Sheng said:


> I really like watching that clip, the atmosphere great, martial artists being martial artists and enjoying what they are doing and neither trying to show off and the the interaction between the two, relaxed, happy and learning was great. That is the way it should be.
> 
> I would also like to add watching that clip; Marcelo Garcia is very good at maintaining and controlling his own center, a rather awesome display of skill actually


 Marcelo Garcia is truly one of the greats.  He is elite among the elite.


----------



## Hanzou

Tony Dismukes said:


> Since some folks didn't care for the clip of a Tai Chi master grappling with a bigger, but relatively unskilled wrestler, I'll just post this video of "Tuishou" Chen Chi Cheng working takedowns with Marcelo Garcia:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marcelo is dominant, but I'm not going to cite that as proving the superiority of BJJ. Marcelo Garcia is a world-class grappler regardless of system. As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Chen demonstrates genuine skill and does much better than I would have done against Marcelo.



If a wrestler doesn't know how to do double leg takedowns or ankle picks, he's quite a bit below "unskilled".

That Garcia clip is more of what I was looking for. Attacking the legs is more of what I'd expect from a wrestling/ grappling exponent. Kind of surprising that there's no answer for that in Tuishou.


----------



## Steve

Hanzou said:


> If a wrestler doesn't know how to do double leg takedowns or ankle picks, he's quite a bit below "unskilled".
> 
> That Garcia clip is more of what I was looking for. Attacking the legs is more of what I'd expect from a wrestling/ grappling exponent. Kind of surprising that there's no answer for that in Tuishou.


 To be fair, the tai chi guy seems to do a pretty good job of controlling distance and framing up to avoid the takedowns to his legs.  While Marcelo Garcia does clearly manage to take him down often, it's effing Marcelinho, one of the best ever.  No one looks good sparring with him.


----------



## Hanzou

Steve said:


> To be fair, the tai chi guy seems to do a pretty good job of controlling distance and framing up to avoid the takedowns to his legs.  While Marcelo Garcia does clearly manage to take him down often, it's effing Marcelinho, one of the best ever.  No one looks good sparring with him.



Eh, I think he did a good job not being controlled above the waist, which is important. However, the lack of DLT and pick defenses was quite surprising. That's pretty elementary stuff right there.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Hanzou said:


> Kind of surprising that there's no answer for that in Tuishou.



Here is the thing about that statement, you are judging all Taiji tuishuo by what you see Chen Chi Cheng doing and if you knew tuishou you would know that was simply not correct. What Chen Chi Cheng trained for was World Cup Tuishou competitions and leg takedows like that are simply not allowed. As a matter of fact the stuff you see Chen Ziqiang when he turns somebody and takes their legs out from under them is not allowed in World Cup Tuishou either. Traditional Tuishou, Traditional Tuishou with Sanshou, and competition Tuishou are not the same things.

What I would like to see is someone at the level of a Marcelo Garcia do a similar thing with Chen Ziqiang or another of the Chen family 20th generation, whose name escapes me at the moment, who is into the fighting of it.

Now it could be that Chen Ziqiang gets his butt kicked, or it could be real interesting to watch, but he is more likely to know how to deal with leg takedowns and such attacks and he is more likely to try and take his opponants legs out from under him than Chen Chi Cheng is. And that is because what Chen Ziqiang is doing is a more traditional Tuishou with Sanshou in it.


----------



## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:


> Here is the thing about that statement, you are judging all Taiji tuishuo by what you see Chen Chi Cheng doing and if you knew tuishou you would know that was simply not correct. What Chen Chi Cheng trained for was World Cup Tuishou competitions and leg takedows like that are simply not allowed. As a matter of fact the stuff you see Chen Ziqiang when he turns somebody and takes their legs out from under them is not allowed in World Cup Tuishou either. Traditional Tuishou, Traditional Tuishou with Sanshou, and competition Tuishou are not the same things.
> 
> What I would like to see is someone at the level of a Marcelo Garcia do a similar thing with Chen Ziqiang or another of the Chen family 20th generation, whose name escapes me at the moment, who is into the fighting of it.
> 
> Now it could be that Chen Ziqiang gets his butt kicked, or it could be real interesting to watch, but he is more likely to know how to deal with leg takedowns and such attacks and he is more likely to try and take his opponants legs out from under him than Chen Chi Cheng is. And that is because what Chen Ziqiang is doing is a more traditional Tuishou with Sanshou in it.


Well since hanzou decided to open up this silly little door, couldn't just appreciate the video for what it is, here goes some more stupidity:  hey, did anyone notice that nobody was throwing any strikes?  Looks to me like the Chen guy was willing to go in there and play by the bjj rules.  That was pretty sporting of him to do so.

But I saw a ton of places where the Chen guy could have hit the bjj guy, but in what I must assume was a show of camaraderie and good sportsmanship, he didn't.  

So if this was a real fight, that whole unexplored striking bit remains a bit of a mystery as to how it would have played out.

And yes, the striking could have gone both ways.

Some people (hanzou) just have no class.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:


> Well since hanzou decided to open up this silly little door, couldn't just appreciate the video for what it is, here goes some more stupidity:  hey, did anyone notice that nobody was throwing any strikes?  Looks to me like the Chen guy was willing to go in there and play by the bjj rules.  That was pretty sporting of him to do so.
> 
> But I saw a ton of places where the Chen guy could have hit the bjj guy, but in what I must assume was a show of camaraderie and good sportsmanship, he didn't.
> 
> So if this was a real fight, that whole unexplored striking bit remains a bit of a mystery as to how it would have played out.
> 
> And yes, the striking could have gone both ways.
> 
> Some people (hanzou) just have no class.



Had a similar thought about striking as well and also thought sportsman ship and MAist comradery (which is another thing that impressed me about the video, but I'm an old school MA guy so we think of such things), and the truth is Chen Ziqiang can hit too, and rather hard, if he were to go that route


----------



## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:


> Had a similar thought about striking as well,  and the truth is Chen Ziqiang can hit too, and rather hard, if he were to go that route


That's what I figured.  I wasn't going to raise the issue because it was clear from the video that this was a fun, good-willed get together that wasn't meant to be an all-out match.  But ya know, then  certain people open their mouths and this is the turn the discussion takes.


----------



## Hanzou

Xue Sheng said:


> Here is the thing about that statement, you are judging all Taiji tuishuo by what you see Chen Chi Cheng doing and if you knew tuishou you would know that was simply not correct. What Chen Chi Cheng trained for was World Cup Tuishou competitions and leg takedows like that are simply not allowed. As a matter of fact the stuff you see Chen Ziqiang when he turns somebody and takes their legs out from under them is not allowed in World Cup Tuishou either. Traditional Tuishou, Traditional Tuishou with Sanshou, and competition Tuishou are not the same things.
> 
> What I would like to see is someone at the level of a Marcelo Garcia do a similar thing with Chen Ziqiang or another of the Chen family 20th generation, whose name escapes me at the moment, who is into the fighting of it.
> 
> Now it could be that Chen Ziqiang gets his butt kicked, or it could be real interesting to watch, but he is more likely to know how to deal with leg takedowns and such attacks and he is more likely to try and take his opponants legs out from under him than Chen Chi Cheng is. And that is because what Chen Ziqiang is doing is a more traditional Tuishou with Sanshou in it.



I'm judging it on the fact that you had two guys grappling, and one guy wasn't able to stop or counter leg takedowns, something which is fairly elementary in wrestling and grappling in general. It seems bizarre that you would use the excuse that he was training for a competition. Why would you train for a competition that didn't allow leg attacks with a guy who is going to use leg attacks?


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> Well since hanzou decided to open up this silly little door, couldn't just appreciate the video for what it is, here goes some more stupidity:  hey, did anyone notice that nobody was throwing any strikes?  Looks to me like the Chen guy was willing to go in there and play by the bjj rules.  That was pretty sporting of him to do so.
> 
> But I saw a ton of places where the Chen guy could have hit the bjj guy, but in what I must assume was a show of camaraderie and good sportsmanship, he didn't.
> 
> So if this was a real fight, that whole unexplored striking bit remains a bit of a mystery as to how it would have played out.
> 
> And yes, the striking could have gone both ways.
> 
> Some people (hanzou) just have no class.



That's a pretty silly argument considering that it was a *grappling* match. In *grappling* the legs are always fair game, which makes it strange that the Tai Chi exponent didn't utilize any counters for those attacks. For any grappler, its pretty common sense that if you can't push around a guy above the hips, you start going for the legs. Hell, that's what I use against Judo guys, since they're almost impossible to throw.

Also, Bjj practitioners have already established that they can deal with strikers.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Hanzou said:


> That's a pretty silly argument considering that it was a *grappling* match. In *grappling* the legs are always fair game, which makes it strange that the Tai Chi exponent didn't utilize any counters for those attacks.


 Is Greco-Roman wrestling not considered grappling? How about judo under the new rules which don't allow grabbing the legs? Is that not grappling either?



Hanzou said:


> It seems bizarre that you would use the excuse that he was training for a competition. Why would you train for a competition that didn't allow leg attacks with a guy who is going to use leg attacks?



I very much doubt he considered this bout with Marcelo to be preparation for any sort of competition. The two were obviously just having a good time trying stuff out with each other and sharing a learning experience as martial artists. It just so happens that Mr. Chen's _background_ is in a form of grappling competition which (like Greco-Roman or the modern judo ruleset) does not allow grabbing the legs.


----------



## Steve

Hanzou said:


> I'm judging it on the fact that you had two guys grappling, and one guy wasn't able to stop or counter leg takedowns, something which is fairly elementary in wrestling and grappling in general. It seems bizarre that you would use the excuse that he was training for a competition. Why would you train for a competition that didn't allow leg attacks with a guy who is going to use leg attacks?


 It's clear that this is a friendly sparring session to the takedown only.  It's a terrific example of how solid taichi can be when trained well and performed by an experienced practitioner. 

I can understand where you're coming from, Hanzou, in that it doesn't seem like the legs were declared off limits for this sparring session and the tai chi guy did seem to have some trouble with that.   But, you're drawing some tenuous conclusions. 

Personally, I think it's a great thing that he's willing to open up his toolkit and work out with guys like Marcelo Garcia, and while he might not have the experience right now, he's certainly doing the right hting, which is to be willing to expose his weaknesses in order to improve.  I have nothing but respect for that.


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> I'm judging it on the fact that you had two guys grappling, and one guy wasn't able to stop or counter leg takedowns, something which is fairly elementary in wrestling and grappling in general. It seems bizarre that you would use the excuse that he was training for a competition. Why would you train for a competition that didn't allow leg attacks with a guy who is going to use leg attacks?



Because hes still a world class level grappler maybe?

Should MMA guys not work with  world class Judo students or Gi BJJ students at their schools because they'll inevitably take advantage of their opponents gi whereas the MMA guys couldnt in the ring?



Hanzou said:


> That's a pretty silly argument considering that it was a *grappling* match. In *grappling* the legs are always fair game, which makes it strange that the Tai Chi exponent didn't utilize any counters for those attacks. For any grappler, its pretty common sense that if you can't push around a guy above the hips, you start going for the legs. Hell, that's what I use against Judo guys, since they're almost impossible to throw.
> 
> Also, Bjj practitioners have already established that they can deal with strikers.



No, legs are not always fair game. Tony listed a couple different competitions where they are not, and in Chens competitions they are not.

As for your BJJ comment, 

nobody was questioning his BJJ ability against a striker so Idk why you felt the need to imply "BJJ dominance"

Their point was could Chen and Marcelo were clearly grappling in a friendly sporting environment (not a challenge) and were Chen allowed to grapple and strike, it could have been a very different video. 

Or not.

The point was it was never meant to be a realistic or serious match and theres no reason to treat it as such.


----------



## Dirty Dog

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite, on topic, and professional. Further violations of the MartialTalk TOS will result in points being issued.

Mark A Cochran
Dirty Dog
MT Senior Moderator


----------



## Hanzou

Tony Dismukes said:


> Is Greco-Roman wrestling not considered grappling? How about judo under the new rules which don't allow grabbing the legs? Is that not grappling either?



Where did I say that the Tuisho wasn't grappling? I was simply pointing out how erroneous FC's comparison was since both men were clearly engaged in a grappling contest.



> I very much doubt he considered this bout with Marcelo to be preparation for any sort of competition. The two were obviously just having a good time trying stuff out with each other and sharing a learning experience as martial artists. It just so happens that Mr. Chen's _background_ is in a form of grappling competition which (like Greco-Roman or the modern judo ruleset) does not allow grabbing the legs.



I didn't say that either, Xue did.


----------



## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> Because hes still a world class level grappler maybe?
> 
> Should MMA guys not work with  world class Judo students or Gi BJJ students at their schools because they'll inevitably take advantage of their opponents gi whereas the MMA guys couldnt in the ring?



If your goal is to increase your chances of winning a competition with a very specific rule set, no. That would be like me training with a boxer for a Bjj competition.



> No, legs are not always fair game. Tony listed a couple different competitions where they are not, and in Chens competitions they are not.



If legs weren't fair game, why could Garcia use them and not Chen? Garcia's ability to attack the legs gave him a strong advantage, and was frankly a big hole in Chen's game.



> As for your BJJ comment,
> 
> nobody was questioning his BJJ ability against a striker so Idk why you felt the need to imply "BJJ dominance"



Did you read FC's response?



> Their point was could Chen and Marcelo were clearly grappling in a friendly sporting environment (not a challenge) and were Chen allowed to grapple and strike, it could have been a very different video.



Chen was allowed to grapple though, and again the lack of defenses against leg attacks was quite obvious. Again, great top defense, but no grappler worth their salt is going to stay there if they're not making headway.




> Or not.
> 
> The point was it was never meant to be a realistic or serious match and theres no reason to treat it as such.



Where did I say it was a serious match? Im just pointing out the hole in Tuisho's takedown defenses. Frankly, I suspected it as soon as I saw the "Tai Chi vs Wrestling" vid.


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> If your goal is to increase your chances of winning a competition with a very specific rule set, no. That would be like me training with a boxer for a Bjj competition.
> 
> 
> 
> If legs weren't fair game, why could Garcia use them and not Chen? Garcia's ability to attack the legs gave him a strong advantage, and was frankly a big hole in Chen's game.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you read FC's response?
> 
> 
> 
> Chen was allowed to grapple though, and again the lack of defenses against leg attacks was quite obvious. Again, great top defense, but no grappler worth their salt is going to stay there if they're not making headway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where did I say it was a serious match? Im just pointing out the hole in Tuisho's takedown defenses. Frankly, I suspected it as soon as I saw the "Tai Chi vs Wrestling" vid.



Chen most likely didnt use them because he cant in his comps, but being a friendly session saw no reason to limit his opponent. Walking in to any boxing/Kickboxing gym you'll see boxers spar with kickboxers and have no issue with them throwing kicks, while not throwing any of their own.

And I did read FC's response and again, he wasnt disparaging BJJ whatsoever. 

Chen was grappling, within the confines of his style and rules of his competitions.


----------



## Hanzou

Steve said:


> It's clear that this is a friendly sparring session to the takedown only.  It's a terrific example of how solid taichi can be when trained well and performed by an experienced practitioner.
> 
> I can understand where you're coming from, Hanzou, in that it doesn't seem like the legs were declared off limits for this sparring session and the tai chi guy did seem to have some trouble with that.   But, you're drawing some tenuous conclusions.
> 
> Personally, I think it's a great thing that he's willing to open up his toolkit and work out with guys like Marcelo Garcia, and while he might not have the experience right now, he's certainly doing the right hting, which is to be willing to expose his weaknesses in order to improve.  I have nothing but respect for that.


 
I agree with all of that. The only conclusions I'm drawing is that Tuisho lacks defense against leg attacks due to the Tai Chi exponent's clear skill in stopping Marcelo from undercooking or arm dragging him. Yet against Picks and DLTs, nada.


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> I agree with all of that. The only conclusions I'm drawing is that Tuisho lacks defense against leg attacks due to the Tai Chi exponent's clear skill in stopping Marcelo from undercooking or arm dragging him. Yet against Picks and DLTs, nada.



So one practitioner (who regularly competes in a style where leg picks are illegal) is representative of a style?


----------



## Steve

Drose427 said:


> So one practitioner (who regularly competes in a style where leg picks are illegal) is representative of a style?


This. ^^^

God help the reputation of bjj if my skills are the sole measure of efficacy.


----------



## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> Chen most likely didnt use them because he cant in his comps, but being a friendly session saw no reason to limit his opponent. Walking in to any boxing/Kickboxing gym you'll see boxers spar with kickboxers and have no issue with them throwing kicks, while not throwing any of their own.



Yeah, because a boxer wouldn't be as proficient in kicking as a kick boxer.



> And I did read FC's response and again, he wasnt disparaging BJJ whatsoever.



He was stating that a Bjj exponent would be lacking against a striking opponent, just like Chen was lacking against an opponent who attacked his legs. Not seeming to realize that Bjj offers quite a bit of training against striking opponents.



> Chen was grappling, within the confines of his style and rules of his competitions.



More likely within the confines of his knowledge and experience. His training simply didn't offer the necessary solutions on how to counter that line of attack. The same issue exists in modern Judo due to decades of rule enforcement.


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, because a boxer wouldn't be as proficient in kicking as a kick boxer.
> 
> 
> 
> He was stating that a Bjj exponent would be lacking against a striking opponent, just like Chen was lacking against an opponent who attacked his legs. Not seeming to realize that Bjj offers quite a bit of training against striking opponents.
> 
> 
> 
> More likely within the confines of his knowledge and experience. His training simply didn't offer the necessary solutions on how to counter that line of attack. The same issue exists in modern Judo due to decades of rule enforcement.



Theres also all the guys who dont throw leg kicks (because they arent allowed in their style or comps) and have no issue with the sparring partners doing it

Or the kickboxers who let MT guys throw elbows and backfists without doing so themselves.

Training is training, and if you're training for a specific comp youre going to do so within the rules of that comp regardless of who you're working with.

No, FC was saying where Chen allowed to grapple and strike it could have affected the outcome, not that any BJJ practitioner is going to be lacking against a striking opponent. You drew that conclusion on your own

Oh are you an expert on Chens training now? Or Tai Chi in general? I thought you trained MT and BJJ

Modern Judo has a lot of the same counters in wrestling for ankle pics and shots (Sprawling, high legs, etc) so Im not sure why you're using it as an example, other than they dont regularly use them.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Hanzou said:


> Where did I say that the Tuisho wasn't grappling?





Hanzou said:


> That's a pretty silly argument considering that it was a *grappling* match. In *grappling* the legs are always fair game, which makes it strange that the Tai Chi exponent didn't utilize any counters for those attacks.



Either I'm seriously misunderstanding your comments or you're seriously misunderstanding mine.

You made the claim that in grappling matches leg attacks are always allowed. I simply pointed out that there are many forms of grappling competition (including the one Mr. Chen practices) where they are not.

There's nothing strange about the fact that someone who is primarily experienced in a more restrictive rule set will take a while to adjust to sparring under a more open rule set against someone who is used to using the additional techniques allowed in that context. Suppose the video showed a boxer sparring with a Muay Thai practitioner. Would you be saying "in *striking*, kicks and knees are always fair game, which makes it strange that the boxer didn't have any counters ready for those leg kicks and those knees in the clinch"?


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> That's a pretty silly argument considering that it was a *grappling* match. In *grappling* the legs are always fair game, which makes it strange that the Tai Chi exponent didn't utilize any counters for those attacks. For any grappler, its pretty common sense that if you can't push around a guy above the hips, you start going for the legs. Hell, that's what I use against Judo guys, since they're almost impossible to throw.
> 
> Also, Bjj practitioners have already established that they can deal with strikers.


----------



## Hanzou

Tony Dismukes said:


> Either I'm seriously misunderstanding your comments or you're seriously misunderstanding mine.
> 
> You made the claim that in grappling matches leg attacks are always allowed. I simply pointed out that there are many forms of grappling competition (including the one Mr. Chen practices) where they are not.



I'm thinking that the confusion lies in my use of "match" instead of "friendly sparring"? When I said match, I wasn't talking about competition, I was talking about two grapplers rolling with each other just like those two were.



> There's nothing strange about the fact that someone who is primarily experienced in a more restrictive rule set will take a while to adjust to sparring under a more open rule set against someone who is used to using the additional techniques allowed in that context. Suppose the video showed a boxer sparring with a Muay Thai practitioner. Would you be saying "in *striking*, kicks and knees are always fair game, which makes it strange that the boxer didn't have any counters ready for those leg kicks and those knees in the clinch"?



I would say that in a friendly spar between two strikers, everything is fair game.

I wouldn't say that the lack of kicks, kees, etc. is strange in boxing, because I know the limits of boxing. I was under the impression that Tuisho was a complete grappling system. If I'm mistaken, then I apologize.


----------



## Flying Crane

Go back and re-read the part where i said, and yes, the striking could have gone both ways.

Hanzou is becoming famous for his comic relief.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Hanzou said:


> I'm judging it on the fact that you had two guys grappling, and one guy wasn't able to stop or counter leg takedowns, something which is fairly elementary in wrestling and grappling in general. It seems bizarre that you would use the excuse that he was training for a competition. Why would you train for a competition that didn't allow leg attacks with a guy who is going to use leg attacks?



First it is not an excuse and second I do not write the rules for tuishou competitions, third you obviously don't know what those rules are nor do you have the slightest idea what tuishou is.

Its bizarre that you think that a guy that trains tuishou competitions should train leg attacks when he is not going to be allowed to use then against a guy who also does not train leg attacks and will not use them since they are not allowed in a tuishou competition. It is also bizarre that you just don't seem to understand what was going on in that video and it is equally bizarre that you seem to think everything is wrestling. It is also bizarre that you seemed to absolutely ignore the rest of what I posted on tuishou that explained the differences


----------



## Hanzou

Xue Sheng said:


> First it is not an excuse and second I do not write the rules for tuishou competitions, third you obviously don't know what those rules are nor do you have the slightest idea what tuishou is.



Except that video wasn't a Tuisho competition, it was a friendly roll between two grapplers. 

Again, if Tuisho isn't a complete grappling system then my apologies for thinking it was.


----------



## mograph

Hanzou said:


> Again, if Tuisho(u) isn't a complete grappling system then my apologies for thinking it was.


It could be described as pre-grappling, I suppose. Once the opponent's balance is upset and he goes down or out of a space, the point is awarded. It's not a complete system at all; it's a very limited means of testing structure and balance. Check this out:

_"The purpose of pushing hands is to train our listening ability, sensitivity, reaction speed and in methods of applying techniques to disrupt our opponent's balance. "_

Pushing hands tai chi


----------



## Hanzou

Yang Taiji vs Bjj:


----------



## mograph

Clearly, that's a high-level Tai Chi martial artist. I guess this is settled, then.

Confirmation bias - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


----------



## Hanzou

mograph said:


> Clearly, that's a high-level Tai Chi martial artist. I guess this is settled, then.
> 
> Confirmation bias - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia



Even if that's true, the Bjj exponent is a white belt, so I'm not seeing the problem.


----------



## Steve

mograph said:


> Clearly, that's a high-level Tai Chi martial artist. I guess this is settled, then.
> 
> Confirmation bias - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


Lol.  I told you guys.


----------



## mograph

Hanzou said:


> Even if that's true, the Bjj exponent is a white belt, so I'm not seeing the problem.


What was the thread title again?


----------



## mograph

Steve said:


> Lol.  I told you guys.


Point taken.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Hanzou said:


> Except that video wasn't a Tuisho competition, it was a friendly roll between two grapplers.
> .



Except no one ever said it was a tuishou competition and no one ever said it was BJJ or a grappling meet up either, they did however label it "Marcelo Garcia and Tuishou Chen Do Karate-do". It was a friendly meet up between to Martial arts practitioners., I am sorry and saddened that you cannot see that



Hanzou said:


> Again, if Tuisho isn't a complete grappling system then my apologies for thinking it was.



Well we have established, multiple times now, based on your posts, that you have no idea what Tuishou is.

For example;

1) it is not a system, it is part of multiple systems that use differently based on that system and basically it is used as a two-person training system within those systems for various reasons and applications

2)  did you even bother to read, with an unbiased eye, the post I made giving a general explanation that there are different types of Tuishou and the one the person in the video does is "Competition".


My guess is you didn't, you won't and likely do not care to. So I have said all I can say to you on the subject, you obviously have strong , albeit incorrect, views of all things that are not called "Grappling" so any further discussion with you on this topic would be a complete waste of my time.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Hanzou said:


> I didn't say that either, Xue did.



You didn't understand what he posted did you


----------



## Hanzou

mograph said:


> What was the thread title again?



Well that was the only example I could find of a Tai Chi practitioner participating in a MMA-style competition. If you find an example of a "high-level" practitioner fighting at a similar event, feel free to post it.

I personally don't believe that the results would be all that different, but I'm open to being "pleasantly" surprised.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> Except that video wasn't a Tuisho competition, it was a friendly roll between two grapplers.
> 
> Again, if Tuisho isn't a complete grappling system then my apologies for thinking it was.


It was a friendly roll between two people.  Not two grapplers, or at least not two grappling specialists.  They apparently agreed to play by some sort of grappling rule set.


----------



## Xue Sheng

yeah as I expected, when you can't say anything then hit the disagree


----------



## Hanzou

Xue Sheng said:


> yeah as I expected, when you can't say anything then hit the disagree



You said that further conversation would be a waste of your time, so why would I continue the conversation?


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> It was a friendly roll between two people.  Not two grapplers, or at least not two grappling specialists.  They apparently agreed to play by some sort of grappling rule set.



Actually he would be considered a grappling specialist due to the nature of the sport. Competitive Tuisho looks very similar to sumo wrestling, which is also a form of grappling.

Clearly it isn't a complete system of grappling in of itself, but merely a grappling subset of a martial art.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> Actually he would be considered a grappling specialist due to the nature of the sport. Competitive Tuisho looks very similar to sumo wrestling, which is also a form of grappling.
> 
> Clearly it isn't a complete system of grappling in of itself, but merely a grappling subset of a martial art.


No he isn't.


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> No he isn't.












Looks like grappling to me.


----------



## mograph

Hanzou said:


> Well that was the only example I could find of a Tai Chi practitioner participating in a MMA-style competition.


Was "in a MMA-style competition" in the thread title?


----------



## Hanzou

mograph said:


> Was "in a MMA-style competition" in the thread title?



Pretty much, since the best way to determine how a tai chi exponent would do against a MMA exponent would be in a format with as little rules as possible.


----------



## mograph

Hanzou said:


> Pretty much,


"Pretty much?" Sure. Whatever.


Hanzou said:


> ... since the best way to determine how a tai chi exponent would do against a MMA exponent would be in a format with as little rules as possible.


Wouldn't "the street" have fewer rules than an MMA environment?


----------



## Hanzou

mograph said:


> "Pretty much?" Sure. Whatever.
> Wouldn't "the street" have fewer rules than an MMA environment?



Sure, but it's highly doubtful you'd have two high level practicioners engaged in a street fight. Much less a practitioner who does Tai Chi.

So the next best bet is a format similar to the vid I posted.


----------



## mograph

MMA-style? Sure. Whatever you say.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> Looks like grappling to me.


On again, you are wrong.


----------



## Hanzou

cpthindsight said:


> Would it be a case that the Tai Chi man would end up on his back unable to defend the x2 leg takedown and pounded out in no time like with many single styles vs the MMA mixed style?I



Based on the evidence provided in this thread, I'm afraid the answer would be yes.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Flying Crane said:


> On again, you are wrong.


While I disagree with Hanzou on a number of issues, I do agree that this looks like grappling to me as well. How are you defining grappling so that what is shown in those clips would not qualify?


----------



## Flying Crane

Tony Dismukes said:


> While I disagree with Hanzou on a number of issues, I do agree that this looks like grappling to me as well. How are you defining grappling so that what is shown in those clips would not qualify?


Taiji is not a grappling system in the dedicated sense that bjj is.  Push hands is one training method of Taiji, one of many methods found within Taiji training.  While elements of grappling can be found within push hands, and within Taiji systems, it still is not a dedicated grappling method.  Hanzou does not and cannot understand this kind of distinction.  My initial comment was that the earlier video of the match was not between two dedicated grapplers.  It was between two martial artists, one of whom is a dedicated grappler (or at least more so) and the other is not.

Hanzou has one tool in his tool box: a hammer.  So to him everything looks like a nail and he tries to force everything to be the same thing.  He cannot recognize nor understand that there are differences.


----------



## Tez3

Flying Crane said:


> Taiji is not a grappling system in the dedicated sense that bjj is.  Push hands is one training method of Taiji, one of many methods found within Taiji training.  While elements of grappling can be found within push hands, and within Taiji systems, it still is not a dedicated grappling method.  Hanzou does not and cannot understand this kind of distinction.  My initial comment was that the earlier video of the match was not between two dedicated grapplers.  It was between two martial artists, one of whom is a dedicated grappler (or at least more so) and the other is not.
> 
> Hanzou has one tool in his tool box: a hammer.  So to him everything looks like a nail and he tries to force everything to be the same thing.  He cannot recognize nor understand that there are differences.




I find threads less frustrating with Hanzou on ignore for the very reasons you put here, I recommend it. 
You can only explain things so many times until it becomes insulting that someone won't listen.


----------



## Flying Crane

Tez3 said:


> I find threads less frustrating with Hanzou on ignore for the very reasons you put here, I recommend it.
> You can only explain things so many times until it becomes insulting that someone won't listen.


True.  I am willing to explain it to Tony, however.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Flying Crane said:


> Taiji is not a grappling system in the dedicated sense that bjj is.  Push hands is one training method of Taiji, one of many methods found within Taiji training.  While elements of grappling can be found within push hands, and within Taiji systems, it still is not a dedicated grappling method.  Hanzou does not and cannot understand this kind of distinction.  My initial comment was that the earlier video of the match was not between two dedicated grapplers.  It was between two martial artists, one of whom is a dedicated grappler (or at least more so) and the other is not.
> 
> Hanzou has one tool in his tool box: a hammer.  So to him everything looks like a nail and he tries to force everything to be the same thing.  He cannot recognize nor understand that there are differences.


I get that Tai Chi is not  a pure grappling system. Push hands does feel to me very much to be a grappling exercise. (A specialized exercise for developing certain aspects of grappling skill, not a comprehensive grappling system.)


----------



## Flying Crane

Tony Dismukes said:


> I get that Tai Chi is not  a pure grappling system. Push hands does feel to me very much to be a grappling exercise. (A specialized exercise for developing certain aspects of grappling skill, not a comprehensive grappling system.)


Well, push hands is not fighting.  It is a training exercise meant to help the participants develop their root and their ability to perceive and control their training partner's center and balance.  It is a training drill, not a competition.  At least that is what it was originally meant to be.

The problem is, people want to turn everything into a competition, and push hands translates very poorly into that.  When used as a competition, it breaks down and turns into a shoving match, more than anything else.  Genuine push hands is not a shoving match.  When people approach it as a competition, it changes the whole thing and nobody benefits for it because it has been twisted into something it was never meant to be.

That is the same thing that happens with kata competition.  Kata was never meant to be a competition.  Nobody was ever meant to see it.  It was simply a training method, not meant to be performance art.  But when turned into competition, it becomes little more than performance art.  It's a bit like building a house and then wanting to show everyone your hammer and drill and saw.  Or wanting to make a competition out of pounding nails into a board.  That's pointless and not what the exercise was ever meant for.

So when you see push hands competition, you see a perversion of push hands, and it resembles a shoving match and poor grappling.   But hey, the judges need SOMETHING to use as a basis for determining a winner, in something that was only meant to be a cooperative two-person drill and not a winner/loser engagement.


----------



## Flying Crane

Tony Dismukes said:


> I get that Tai Chi is not  a pure grappling system. Push hands does feel to me very much to be a grappling exercise. (A specialized exercise for developing certain aspects of grappling skill, not a comprehensive grappling system.)


And, my comments also stem from an earlier post where Hanzou tried to label the Chen Taiji guy as a grappling specialist. Whether you see push hands competition as legit or not, or you see it as a grappling exercise, a Taiji person is still not a grappling specialist, definitely not in the way a bjj guy is.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> Actually he would be considered a grappling specialist due to the nature of the sport. Competitive Tuisho looks very similar to sumo wrestling, which is also a form of grappling.
> 
> Clearly it isn't a complete system of grappling in of itself, but merely a grappling subset of a martial art.


Here is where he said it.


----------



## Hanzou

I would label any professional athlete who participates in sport grappling to be a "grappling specialist".  That doesn't make my viewpoint wrong simply because Flying Crane doesn't agree with the purpose behind the grappling sport in question.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> I would label any professional athlete who participates in sport grappling to be a "grappling specialist".  That doesn't make my viewpoint wrong simply because Flying Crane doesn't agree with the purpose behind the grappling sport in question.



Where as you should have said he was a grappling subset specialist.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Flying Crane said:


> Well, push hands is not fighting.  It is a training exercise meant to help the participants develop their root and their ability to perceive and control their training partner's center and balance.  It is a training drill, not a competition.  At least that is what it was originally meant to be.


We are not talking about skill "development" but skill "testing" here.

If the Taiji system uses push hands as "skill development" process then what will be the Taiji system "skill testing" process? When you "test" your skill against people from other systems, you will need "sport" format no matter you like it or not. Without proper "testing" in "sport", how will you be able to know that your skill will work against non-cooperative opponents from other systems?

A good "single leg" is a skill that can be used to take down boxers, MT guys, BJJ guys, CMA guys, and ...

A good "Taiji skill" is a skill that can be used to deal with boxers, MT guys, BJJ guys, CMA guys, and ... . So where and how you are going to test it if you don't use the "sport" format?


----------



## Tez3

Kung Fu Wang said:


> We are not talking about skill "development" but skill "testing" here.
> 
> If the Taiji system uses push hands as "skill development" process then what will be the Taiji system "skill testing" process? When you "test" your skill against people from other systems, you will need "sport" format no matter you like it or not. Without proper "testing" in "sport", how will you be able to know that your skill will work against non-cooperative opponents from other systems?
> 
> A good "single leg" is a skill that can be used to take down boxers, MT guys, BJJ guys, CMA guys, and ...
> 
> A good "Taiji skill" is a skill that can be used to deal with boxers, MT guys, BJJ guys, CMA guys, and ... . So where and how you are going to test it if you don't use the "sport" format?



You can test things perfectly well without making it into a competition, you train, it really is as simple as that. You train, then you train some more then some more.
Once you start turning things into a competition it changes the form of it, you have to have rules, then you have to have a scoring system then...it goes on and on so it becomes not what it was to start with. people become competitive, they start training ways to win the competition and not test the technique. It defeats the object of the exercise. The techniques change to become 'sports' techniques.
I train MMA to compete, to enjoy the fight to win not to test any self defence techniques and you will find that is true of all competitors. I used to fight in full contact karate comp to win, to compete, I never trained once and thought to myself I would 'test' any technique. In fact it was the opposite we trained techniques we knew would win us fights, things already tried and tested, one didn't try new things out in a fight, far too much of a risk! So no one doesn't need a 'sports' format to test anything at all.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> You can test things perfectly well without making it into a competition, you train, it really is as simple as that. You train, then you train some more then some more.
> Once you start turning things into a competition it changes the form of it, you have to have rules, then you have to have a scoring system then...it goes on and on so it becomes not what it was to start with. people become competitive, they start training ways to win the competition and not test the technique. It defeats the object of the exercise. The techniques change to become 'sports' techniques.
> I train MMA to compete, to enjoy the fight to win not to test any self defence techniques and you will find that is true of all competitors. I used to fight in full contact karate comp to win, to compete, I never trained once and thought to myself I would 'test' any technique. In fact it was the opposite we trained techniques we knew would win us fights, things already tried and tested, one didn't try new things out in a fight, far too much of a risk! So no one doesn't need a 'sports' format to test anything at all.



Rather than sport the term alive or resisted training is applicable here. Competition is alive/resisted but not all the options out there.

Otherwise I don't think you can speak for what is true of all competitors.


----------



## drop bear

Kung Fu Wang said:


> We are not talking about skill "development" but skill "testing" here.
> 
> If the Taiji system uses push hands as "skill development" process then what will be the Taiji system "skill testing" process? When you "test" your skill against people from other systems, you will need "sport" format no matter you like it or not. Without proper "testing" in "sport", how will you be able to know that your skill will work against non-cooperative opponents from other systems?
> 
> A good "single leg" is a skill that can be used to take down boxers, MT guys, BJJ guys, CMA guys, and ...
> 
> A good "Taiji skill" is a skill that can be used to deal with boxers, MT guys, BJJ guys, CMA guys, and ... . So where and how you are going to test it if you don't use the "sport" format?



Which is why we are using a sport guy as the example of quality taiji in the first place.


----------



## drop bear

Regarding takedown defence and holes in games. If the other guy is really good it doesn't count as a hole in your game. You can be doing everything right and still get owned.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> I would label any professional athlete who participates in sport grappling to be a "grappling specialist".  That doesn't make my viewpoint wrong simply because Flying Crane doesn't agree with the purpose behind the grappling sport in question.


It actually does make your viewpoint wrong.  You don't even know what you are looking at.


----------



## Flying Crane

Kung Fu Wang said:


> We are not talking about skill "development" but skill "testing" here.
> 
> If the Taiji system uses push hands as "skill development" process then what will be the Taiji system "skill testing" process? When you "test" your skill against people from other systems, you will need "sport" format no matter you like it or not. Without proper "testing" in "sport", how will you be able to know that your skill will work against non-cooperative opponents from other systems?
> 
> A good "single leg" is a skill that can be used to take down boxers, MT guys, BJJ guys, CMA guys, and ...
> 
> A good "Taiji skill" is a skill that can be used to deal with boxers, MT guys, BJJ guys, CMA guys, and ... . So where and how you are going to test it if you don't use the "sport" format?


Nope.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Rather than sport the term alive or resisted training is applicable here. Competition is alive/resisted but not all the options out there.
> 
> Otherwise I don't think you can speak for what is true of all competitors.




The term 'sport' that came from Kung Fu Wang who is saying that the only way to test anything is by taking part in competitions. It's not a good way to test self defence techniques, I'd agree that 'alive' or resisted training is by far a better way.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> The term 'sport' that came from Kung Fu Wang who is saying that the only way to test anything is by taking part in competitions. It's not a good way to test self defence techniques, I'd agree that 'alive' or resisted training is by far a better way.



Sometimes I think you need to read past what a person says and try to understand what a person means.

You did notice all the quotations? So when he says "sports format" it is designed to be read in a fairly liberal context.


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> Sometimes I think you need to read past what a person says and try to understand what a person means.
> 
> You did notice all the quotations? So when he says "sports format" it is designed to be read in a fairly liberal context.


Kung fu wang's post was full of nonsense.  Tez got it right.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> Kung fu wang's post was full of nonsense.  Tez got it right.


Nope.


----------



## mograph

drop bear said:


> You did notice all the *quotations*? So when he says "sports format" it is designed to be read in a fairly liberal context.


I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Link: Purdue OWL Quotation Marks


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> Nope.


Care to explain what part Kung fu wang got right?


----------



## K-man

Push hands as an exercise is no different to kakie in Goju or 'trapping' if you want to look that up. It is not designed for continuous fighting, it is something to train sensitivity and balance that you might use for a fraction of a second in a real fight. To consider it grappling makes absolutely no sense to me at all.


----------



## drop bear

mograph said:


> I do not think that word means what you think it means.
> 
> Link: Purdue OWL Quotation Marks



Different use of quotations. Language evolves.


----------



## Steve

It's perfectly fine to use a quotation mark to indicate words that are used with some reservation, as was done in this thread.   And how might I know this?   Why, I read it on the link below the link provided, ip under their header, "extended rules for quotation marks." 

Once again demonstrating that it's always a good idea to read the entire reference when you're trying to be a smart alec.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> Care to explain what part Kung fu wang got right?



The bit where you need to test against resisting guys and test against other systems. In an environment where you can fail and grow from the experience.

That way when there is a method of attack that represents kryptonite to your superman you can recognize that and fix it. 
Look it is nice for the ego to be Capitan awesome in your own head or in your own school. But if you never take your martial arts out of the box and use it it will never grow into something special.

Or is there a reason you cant do taiji and be able to defend leg takedowns?


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> Push hands as an exercise is no different to kakie in Goju or 'trapping' if you want to look that up. It is not designed for continuous fighting, it is something to train sensitivity and balance that you might use for a fraction of a second in a real fight. To consider it grappling makes absolutely no sense to me at all.



Have we just watched like 10 videos of it being used continuously and apparently effectively.

That is untill it didn't work and then it is not the real push hands.


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> Have we just watched like 10 videos of it being used continuously and apparently effectively.
> 
> That is untill it didn't work and then it is not the real push hands.


Not at all. Perhaps you could explain the martial application of what you saw in those 10 videos, perhaps in the environment of a pub altercation.


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> Not at all. Perhaps you could explain the martial application of what you saw in those 10 videos, perhaps in the environment of a pub altercation.



I don't know the clip with the wrestler where he knocks the guy back 10 feet on to his ***. Seems pretty applicable.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Kung Fu Wang said:


> So where and how you are going to test it if you don't use the "sport" format?


Just to be clear, the "sport" format is a method that you can still have someone who is willing to spar with you. If you just kill every single sparring partner that you can find, pretty soon, nobody will spar with you.


----------



## drop bear

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Just to be clear, the "sport" format is a method that you can still have someone who is willing to spar with you. If you just kill every single sparring partner that you can find, pretty soon, nobody will spar with you.



Honestly that did come across in your other post.


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> I don't know the clip with the wrestler where he knocks the guy back 10 feet on to his ***. Seems pretty applicable.


Perhaps I should have asked you to repost the clip that you think provides a technique that we could train to use the next time we are attacked by a thug in the street, or better still one that you think would stand up against a trained fighter in an MMA bout.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> Have we just watched like 10 videos of it being used continuously and apparently effectively.
> 
> That is untill it didn't work and then it is not the real push hands.



You noticed that too?

Funny how that happens.


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> Care to explain what part Kung fu wang got right?



He got it right when he said the best way to test something  outside of walking the streets and beating people down, or dojo storming and beating fellow martial artists down is in a sportive environment.

Chen and Garcia were messing around in a sportive environment. Ideas were exchanged, and both parties came out as friends. 

That Bjj white belt who smashed that Taiji practicioner did so in a sportive environment. The only more realistic alternative to that is the Bjj guy going to the Taiji guy's house and beating the crap out of him.


----------



## K-man

Hanzou said:


> You noticed that too?
> 
> Funny how that happens.


I'm not talking about 'real' push hands and whether it works or not. I am asking what you think is its place in the martial arts.


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> Perhaps I should have asked you to repost the clip that you think provides a technique that we could train to use the next time we are attacked by a thug in the street, or better still one that you think would stand up against a trained fighter in an MMA bout.



Then I would post the clip of the tai chi (taiji?) guy manhandling a wrestler. Or hanging with Marcello.


----------



## Hanzou

K-man said:


> I'm not talking about 'real' push hands and whether it works or not. I am asking what you think is its place in the martial arts.



I think Tuishou could evolve into a grappling method (and possibly its own martial art), that rivals Judo, Aikido, and Greco-Roman wrestling once it fixes it's leg grabbing issue.

And honestly it can do that by simply incorporating leg takedown defenses from other grappling forms. 

Real push hands can continue being a practice set for Tai chi.


----------



## mograph

Steve said:


> It's perfectly fine to use a quotation mark to indicate words that are used with some reservation, as was done in this thread.   And how might I know this?   Why, I read it on the link below the link provided, ip under their header, "extended rules for quotation marks."
> 
> Once again demonstrating that it's always a good idea to read the entire reference when you're trying to be a smart alec.



I see. I was commenting on Drop Bear's specific _interpretation_ of quotes as being the usage of terms "in a fairly liberal context." To me at least, "with reservation" is not the same as "in a fairly liberal context," which was not allowed for in the OWL link. The former refers to the relative _inapplicability_ of the terms in quotes (where "sport" etc. might _not_ apply, or only be applied with reservation, or in a limited context) to the discussion; while the latter would describe a _broad application_ of the quoted terms to multiple contexts (where "sport" _would_ apply to multiple environments). 
In the former, "sport" applies narrowly if at all; while in the latter, "sport" applies broadly.

Sophistry? Perhaps. I was reacting to DB's sarcasm ("did you see the quotation marks?") and felt my own need to respond to what I saw as a smart alec(k). But in the end, I'll concede the point to you, lest we diverge too much.


----------



## Steve

mograph said:


> I see. I was commenting on Drop Bear's specific _interpretation_ of quotes as being the usage of terms "in a fairly liberal context." To me at least, "with reservation" is not the same as "in a fairly liberal context," which was not allowed for in the OWL link. The former refers to the relative _inapplicability_ of the terms in quotes (where "sport" etc. might _not_ apply, or only be applied with reservation, or in a limited context) to the discussion; while the latter would describe a _broad application_ of the quoted terms to multiple contexts (where "sport" _would_ apply to multiple environments).
> In the former, "sport" applies narrowly if at all; while in the latter, "sport" applies broadly.
> 
> Sophistry? Perhaps. I was reacting to DB's sarcasm ("did you see the quotation marks?") and felt my own need to respond to what I saw as a smart alec(k). But in the end, I'll concede the point to you, lest we diverge too much.


We could all stand to lighten up.  Me included.


----------



## mograph

Apologies for the grammar sophistry before. How about some slapping around?

Link: Tai chi tuishou for striking and mid range grappling - Tai Chi Central


----------



## mograph

Steve said:


> We could all stand to lighten up.  Me included.


Now _there's_ a martial artist.  Respect.


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> The bit where you need to test against resisting guys and test against other systems. In an environment where you can fail and grow from the experience.
> 
> That way when there is a method of attack that represents kryptonite to your superman you can recognize that and fix it.
> Look it is nice for the ego to be Capitan awesome in your own head or in your own school. But if you never take your martial arts out of the box and use it it will never grow into something special.
> 
> Or is there a reason you cant do taiji and be able to defend leg takedowns?


I'll welcome you to go back and read my earlier post, #162, where I explain what the real purpose of push hands is.  

Testing ones skills is another discussion.  Whether or not competition is the best way to do it, is another.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> He got it right when he said the best way to test something  outside of walking the streets and beating people down, or dojo storming and beating fellow martial artists down is in a sportive environment.
> 
> Chen and Garcia were messing around in a sportive environment. Ideas were exchanged, and both parties came out as friends.
> 
> That Bjj white belt who smashed that Taiji practicioner did so in a sportive environment. The only more realistic alternative to that is the Bjj guy going to the Taiji guy's house and beating the crap out of him.


And do you still hold that Mr. Chen is a grappling specialist?


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> Then I would post the clip of the tai chi (taiji?) guy manhandling a wrestler. Or hanging with Marcello.


Then, I would say, you are totally wrong as *Flying Crane* pointed out in an earlier post where he explained its use.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Flying Crane said:


> Testing ones skills is another discussion.  Whether or not competition is the best way to do it, is another.


If you have spend a lot of your training time to develop your "single leg", how are you going to test it? IMO, you can test it in the following 2 different ways.

1. full testing (test all your skills) - You can get into a ring or, step on the mat and spar/wrestle for 15 rounds. In this format, you will test all your skills and you are not just test your "single leg" skill. Most people may call this "sport".

2. partial testing (test one of your skills) - You can also set up a "sport format" such as if your opponent's punch or kick can land on your body, your opponent wins that round. For safety, a full powerful knock out is not needed. If you can use your "single leg" to take your opponent down before his punches and kicks can land on your body, you win that round. You test your "single leg" in this format for 100 rounds. You then record your successful ratio and failure ratio. That will be where your "single leg" skill will stand.

Besides these 2 different methods of testing, and also assume that you just meet your opponent from other MA system the first time, what can be the other suitable testing method?


----------



## Flying Crane

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you have spend a lot of your training time to develop your "single leg", how are you going to test it? IMO, you can test it in the following 2 different ways.
> 
> 1. full testing (test all your skills) - You can get into a ring or, step on the mat and spar/wrestle for 15 rounds. In this format, you will test all your skills and you are not just test your "single leg" skill. Most people may call this "sport".
> 
> 2. partial testing (test one of your skills) - You can also set up a "sport format" such as if your opponent's punch or kick can land on your body, your opponent wins that round. For safety, a full powerful knock out is not needed. If you can use your "single leg" to take your opponent down before his punches and kicks can land on your body, you win that round. You test your "single leg" in this format for 100 rounds. You then record your successful ratio and failure ratio. That will be where your "single leg" skill will stand.
> 
> Besides these 2 different methods of testing, and also assume that you just meet your opponent from other MA system the first time, what can be the other suitable testing method?


I would test any technique with my training partners.  Not in any way that you describe.


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> Then, I would say, you are totally wrong as *Flying Crane* pointed out in an earlier post where he explained its use.




I am going off the descriptions here. Some people are saying taji is not to be messed with some are saying its a concept. Mabye there is more than one version.

Personally I prefer the more realistic resisted version. Which may be watered down but at least seems to have some merit.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> I would test any technique with my training partners.  Not in any way that you describe.



And so how do you yes your technique?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Flying Crane said:


> I would test any technique with my training partners.  Not in any way that you describe.


What method will you use?

In order to test my "rhino guard", I would test it in the following way:

- If my opponent's punch can hit my head or body, he wins that round.
- If I can get into a successful clinch from my "rhino guard" before my opponent can hit me, I win that round.

I would test my "rhino guard" like this for 100 rounds and record my testing result. If you have a good testing method to suggest, I would like to hear and keep my options open.


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> And so how do you yes your technique?


See the following.


----------



## Flying Crane

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What method will you use?
> 
> In order to test my "rhino guard", I would test it in the following way:
> 
> - If my opponent's punch can hit my head or body, he wins that round.
> - If I can get into a successful clinch from my "rhino guard" before my opponent can hit me, I win that round.
> 
> I would test my "rhino guard" like this for 100 rounds and record my testing result. If you have a good testing method to suggest, I would like to hear and keep my options open.


I work through it with my sifu, classmates, and training partners, as much as we feel is necessary. I would never jump into a competition ring for it, or for any other reason for that matter.  I just don't give a rat's *** about competition in any way, shape, or form. By the way:  how many times have you jumped into a ring, since you've been advocating it?

And, I sure as **** would never count rounds and tally up a percentage on my techniques.  Sorry, but that makes no sense at all.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> I work through it with my sifu, classmates, and training partners, as much as we feel is necessary. I would never jump into a competition ring for it, or for any other reason for that matter.  I just don't give a rat's *** about competition in any way, shape, or form. By the way:  how many times have you jumped into a ring, since you've been advocating it?
> 
> And, I sure as **** would never count rounds and tally up a percentage on my techniques.  Sorry, but that makes no sense at all.



Worked through as in?

And not in the ting often enough and my martial arts suffers for that lack of exposure.

As does yours.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Flying Crane said:


> I work through it with my sifu, classmates, and training partners, as much as we feel is necessary.


Even if you just test your skill against your teacher, classmates, and training partners, you are still using some kind of "sport" format and apply "rules" that both persons will agree.

If you only test your skill within your own MA system, you may not test your skill enough against people from other MA systems. For example,

Without testing your skill against

- BJJ guys, you may never experience the "pull guard" and "jump guard"
- MT guys, you may never experience the "flying knee".
- ...


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> Worked through as in?
> 
> And not in the ting often enough and my martial arts suffers for that lack of exposure.
> 
> As does yours.


You know nothing of what my training does or does not need.


----------



## Flying Crane

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Even if you just test your skill against your teacher, classmates, and training partners, you are still using some kind of "sport" format and apply "rules" that both persons will agree.
> 
> If you only test your skill within your own MA system, you may not test your skill enough against people from other MA systems. For example,
> 
> Without testing your skill against
> 
> - BJJ guys, you may never experience the "pull guard" and "jump guard"
> - MT guys, you may never experience the "flying knee".
> - ...


No, it is not sport.  
Of course there are some rule that apply.  Nobody said any differently.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> You know nothing of what my training does or does not need.



Because being insular is the way to go?


----------



## Tez3

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Even if you just test your skill against your teacher, classmates, and training partners, you are still using some kind of "sport" format and apply "rules" that both persons will agree.
> 
> If you only test your skill within your own MA system, you may not test your skill enough against people from other MA systems. For example,
> 
> Without testing your skill against
> 
> - BJJ guys, you may never experience the "pull guard" and "jump guard"
> - MT guys, you may never experience the "flying knee".
> - ...





I think you misunderstand what you are testing. You are fixated on techniques.

Over the back of my house is the moors and the army training area. last night the Infantry recruits were out on exercise, getting ready for their final exercise where they are tested. You could hear the fire fights going on and see the shemoulies lighting up the area. Now, when it comes to that final exercise what do you think the instructors are going to be testing?
They *won't *be testing the recruits weapon handling, their leadership skills, their drill, their field craft etc etc the instructors know they can do all of that, after all they taught them over the past few months but they don't know that when push comes to shove if the recruits can do it under pressure. They will be testing the man not the techniques..

This is what you do when you pressure test your techniques in the cage/ring/mat. You aren't testing your techniques (it doesn't matter what style either), if you have drilled them and drilled them they come as second nature, you know they work, what you are testing is YOU. Will you hold your nerve when there's a flurry of punches coming at you? will you get up if you are knocked down or curl up like a baby? Can you keep calm, assessing as you go along or are you going to lose your rage and flail in? The questions aren't about techniques, they work, it's about you, have you got 'it'.
Plenty of people haven't, ask any promoter. People phone on the morning of a fight with an 'injury, I've seen people take their medical then disappear never to be seen again, one lad even got as far as the cage door, turned around and went back to the changing room. It happens a lot.

Techniques work, you know they do, you've practised them on resisting people, you know all the various ways to put them on and if that doesn't do it you know how to transition to do another technique then another. You don't have to test them against anyone but you do have to test your nerve. Until you test yourself, until you know yourself and how you behave under pressure it won't matter how many different styles you train with because sure, you can use them in a 'sports' context but can you use them when you really need to or will you go to pieces?
It's not your MA skills that need testing, it's you.

After the first fight, fighters know whether they can compete or not so then it's still not about testing techniques it's about winning fights, doing what you know, using tactics to win against opponents.


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> And do you still hold that Mr. Chen is a grappling specialist?



Yes. He's a competitive grappler.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Flying Crane said:


> The problem is, people want to turn everything into a competition, and push hands translates very poorly into that. When used as a competition, it breaks down and turns into a shoving match, more than anything else. Genuine push hands is not a shoving match. When people approach it as a competition, it changes the whole thing and nobody benefits for it because it has been twisted into something it was never meant to be.



Competition push hands may not match up with your use of the exercise, but that "shoving match" involves genuine skill and technique. From my standpoint, I can see martial application for that skill, so I would say that there is benefit to be had. I'm not saying those benefits are any better or worse than what you get out of your approach to push hands, but I'm saying they are definitely there.



K-man said:


> It is not designed for continuous fighting, it is something to train sensitivity and balance that you might use for a fraction of a second in a real fight. To consider it grappling makes absolutely no sense to me at all.



Just because you can apply something in a fraction of a second doesn't make it not grappling. Ronda Rousey will practice continuous uchikomis in the gym so that she can throw someone in the cage in a fraction of a second.



K-man said:


> I'm not talking about 'real' push hands and whether it works or not. I am asking what you think is its place in the martial arts.



For me, it's an exercise for developing sensitivity, balance, and structure in the context of medium-to-close range contact with another person.  Furthermore, it helps develop skill in manipulating the other person's balance and structure. For a minority of tai chi practitioners, it's also a competitive martial sport.



K-man said:


> Perhaps you could explain the martial application of what you saw in those 10 videos, perhaps in the environment of a pub altercation.



Okay, in the pub altercation, an aggressor might initiate contact through shoving, or tackling, or throwing a punch which the defender might block and stick to. In this period of contact (which might be short or extended), the defender could use the skills and attributes developed through push hands to maintain his own balance and disrupt his attacker's balance, possibly even applying a throw or armlock.

Using said attributes to apply and defend against strikes would be more the province of sticky hands than push hands, but there is some overlap in the skills being developed between the two training methodologies.



Flying Crane said:


> I would test any technique with my training partners. Not in any way that you describe.





Flying Crane said:


> I work through it with my sifu, classmates, and training partners, as much as we feel is necessary.



I'm curious - how exactly are you working with your training partners to test your techniques?



Flying Crane said:


> And, I sure as **** would never count rounds and tally up a percentage on my techniques. Sorry, but that makes no sense at all.



Eh, Kung Fu Wang's methodology as described is oversimplified for a variety of reasons, but there is some definite value to the underlying concepts he is working with. I think I may write up a post soon examining some of those concepts.



Tez3 said:


> I think you misunderstand what you are testing. You are fixated on techniques.
> 
> Over the back of my house is the moors and the army training area. last night the Infantry recruits were out on exercise, getting ready for their final exercise where they are tested. You could hear the fire fights going on and see the shemoulies lighting up the area. Now, when it comes to that final exercise what do you think the instructors are going to be testing?
> They *won't *be testing the recruits weapon handling, their leadership skills, their drill, their field craft etc etc the instructors know they can do all of that, after all they taught them over the past few months but they don't know that when push comes to shove if the recruits can do it under pressure. They will be testing the man not the techniques..
> 
> This is what you do when you pressure test your techniques in the cage/ring/mat. You aren't testing your techniques (it doesn't matter what style either), if you have drilled them and drilled them they come as second nature, you know they work, what you are testing is YOU. Will you hold your nerve when there's a flurry of punches coming at you? will you get up if you are knocked down or curl up like a baby? Can you keep calm, assessing as you go along or are you going to lose your rage and flail in? The questions aren't about techniques, they work, it's about you, have you got 'it'.
> Plenty of people haven't, ask any promoter. People phone on the morning of a fight with an 'injury, I've seen people take their medical then disappear never to be seen again, one lad even got as far as the cage door, turned around and went back to the changing room. It happens a lot.
> 
> Techniques work, you know they do, you've practised them on resisting people, you know all the various ways to put them on and if that doesn't do it you know how to transition to do another technique then another. You don't have to test them against anyone but you do have to test your nerve. Until you test yourself, until you know yourself and how you behave under pressure it won't matter how many different styles you train with because sure, you can use them in a 'sports' context but can you use them when you really need to or will you go to pieces?
> It's not your MA skills that need testing, it's you.
> 
> After the first fight, fighters know whether they can compete or not so then it's still not about testing techniques it's about winning fights, doing what you know, using tactics to win against opponents.



I'd say both the person _and_ the techniques have to be tested. Ideally in as many ways possible (for both the person and the techniques).


----------



## Tez3

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'd say both the person _and_ the techniques have to be tested. Ideally in as many ways possible (for both the person and the techniques).



The thing is the techniques in themselves don't need to be tested, they work, what you are doing is testing whether you can do the techniques when you need to, physically the techniques are easy, doing them under duress with a calm mind rather than a panicking one not so easy. People are concentrating on techniques as if they've just been invented and they don't know they work, of course they do, you are testing your ability to use them not the actual techniques themselves.
A roundhouse kick to the head works, no one can dispute that so it's not the roundhouse kick you are testing it's your abilities to use it. people need to separate the technique from the ability to make the technique work, if _you_ can't make it work it's not the techniques fault is it?


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> Because being insular is the way to go?


Are you making random guesses now?


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> Yes. He's a competitive grappler.


Then you continue to be wrong.


----------



## Flying Crane

Tony Dismukes said:


> Competition push hands may not match up with your use of the exercise, but that "shoving match" involves genuine skill and technique. From my standpoint, I can see martial application for that skill, so I would say that there is benefit to be had. I'm not saying those benefits are any better or worse than what you get out of your approach to push hands, but I'm saying they are definitely there.
> 
> 
> 
> Just because you can apply something in a fraction of a second doesn't make it not grappling. Ronda Rousey will practice continuous uchikomis in the gym so that she can throw someone in the cage in a fraction of a second.
> 
> 
> 
> For me, it's an exercise for developing sensitivity, balance, and structure in the context of medium-to-close range contact with another person.  Furthermore, it helps develop skill in manipulating the other person's balance and structure. For a minority of tai chi practitioners, it's also a competitive martial sport.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, in the pub altercation, an aggressor might initiate contact through shoving, or tackling, or throwing a punch which the defender might block and stick to. In this period of contact (which might be short or extended), the defender could use the skills and attributes developed through push hands to maintain his own balance and disrupt his attacker's balance, possibly even applying a throw or armlock.
> 
> Using said attributes to apply and defend against strikes would be more the province of sticky hands than push hands, but there is some overlap in the skills being developed between the two training methodologies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious - how exactly are you working with your training partners to test your techniques?
> 
> 
> 
> Eh, Kung Fu Wang's methodology as described is oversimplified for a variety of reasons, but there is some definite value to the underlying concepts he is working with. I think I may write up a post soon examining some of those concepts.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say both the person _and_ the techniques have to be tested. Ideally in as many ways possible (for both the person and the techniques).


I've seen those push hands competitions live and in person.  The skill is minimal.  It's mostly brute strength shoving.


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> I've seen those push hands competitions live and in person.  The skill is minimal.  It's mostly brute strength shoving.



So now all of the sudden competitive Tushiou requires minimal skill? 

Interesting.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> So now all of the sudden competitive Tushiou requires minimal skill?
> 
> Interesting.


When you try to cram a square peg into a round hole, that's what happens.  That's what happens when you turn push hands into a competition. 

But when your only experience with Taiji is thru YouTube videos, well you are going to have a piss-poor understanding of what is really going on.  I am happy to keep pointing out to you that you know nothing of Taiji.  You are welcome to wallow in your ignorance and ignore the education that people here are willing to give you.  But when you keep spouting nonsense, well I'll keep telling you that you are wrong.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tez3 said:


> The thing is the techniques in themselves don't need to be tested, they work, ... People are concentrating on techniques as if they've just been invented and they don't know they work, of course they do, ...



Really? Which techniques? All of them? You think every technique taught in every martial art is fully proven and equally valid? I don't.

I would say that _most_ techniques taught in a martial arts school _could_ work, given the right context and circumstances. That doesn't mean that they are all good and any failure to apply them is down to the individual being able to hold up under pressure.

I wrote a blog post a while back about high-percentage vs low-percentage techniques.

Some techniques are relatively useful and reliable in a wide variety of situations and don't rely on having skill and attributes vastly superior to your opponent. Those would be high-percentage techniques.

Other techniques are useful in fewer circumstances or rely on having superior attributes. Those are lower percentage.

Some techniques can work, but are risky. Others are safer and carry less of a penalty for failure.

Some techniques can be effective, but only in certain specific circumstances. Depending on the instructor, those circumstances may not be correctly explained.

Some techniques were valid as applied in their original context, but through generations of teachers who have never used them in a combative setting, the details and understanding to make them functional have been lost.

Some techniques could theoretically work, but would require superior skill and attributes, an incompetent opponent attacking in an unnatural way, and quite a bit of luck.

When I was in the Bujinkan, I was taught some techniques that I can guarantee have never been used by anyone in a real fight ever and never will be. That can happen when an instructor gets creative working with a compliant uke who feeds a highly stylized and unrealistic attack. (I'm not dissing everything taught in the Bujinkan, just some specific moves.)

Testing a technique is about establishing where it falls in the categories above. You really need a community of martial artists testing the techniques in a variety of settings over time to do it right. If I find a technique that works well for me, but only 1% of practitioners can get it to work, then it's probably not the best move to make the mainstay of my schools curriculum. Contrariwise, there might be another technique that just isn't reliable for me, but works well for lots of other people.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Flying Crane said:


> I've seen those push hands competitions live and in person.  The skill is minimal.  It's mostly brute strength shoving.



Hmm. I've been watching some push hands competition and I can absolutely see genuine skill. The technique may not be the same as what you are used to. It may not be the kind you like. It may not be very pretty. You may not be able to see it, but it is definitely there. It is not just a test of who is stronger.


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> When you try to cram a square peg into a round hole, that's what happens.  That's what happens when you turn push hands into a competition.
> 
> But when your only experience with Taiji is thru YouTube videos, well you are going to have a piss-poor understanding of what is really going on.  I am happy to keep pointing out to you that you know nothing of Taiji.  You are welcome to wallow in your ignorance and ignore the education that people here are willing to give you.  But when you keep spouting nonsense, well I'll keep telling you that you are wrong.



I'll just state that it takes quite a bit of skill to keep a skilled grappler like Marcelo Garcia from taking you down. So Chen being able to keep Garcia from establishing a grappling top game shows that there's definitely some skill involved in Tushiou practice.


----------



## Flying Crane

Tony Dismukes said:


> Hmm. I've been watching some push hands competition and I can absolutely see genuine skill. The technique may not be the same as what you are used to. It may not be the kind you like. It may not be very pretty. You may not be able to see it, but it is definitely there. It is not just a test of who is stronger.


Fair enough. I see otherwise.

As I keep saying, push hands was not meant as a competition.  It was meant as a training drill.  Turning it into competition bastardized it and, in my opinion, undermines the very skills it was meant to develop.  And judging Taiji by these competitions, or the skill of a taiji guy by his involvement in these competitions, fails in a huge way to  understand what Taiji is and what it has and what it is all about.


----------



## mograph

FWIW ... when I timed a push-hands competition, I saw a lot of guys shoving each other around, using strength against strength. Yep, that can be useful in a number of contexts, but it's not high-level sensitivity _according to taijiquan yin-yang principles_.

But there was _one_ guy who competed according to principles: he waited (while both players were touching) and deflected investigative attempts at pushing or controlling him ... then all of a sudden, he threw the opponent. He won his matches very quickly, and with no back-and-forth shoving. 10 points was a win, and he won with 12 each time: four throws x 3 points each.

Did he win? No. In the end, he just ran out of gas and lost the final, if I recall. My (likely baseless) speculation may be that because he was very sensitive and won his training matches very quickly (and rarely experienced shoving matches), he never had to sustain his effort through a tournament.

The point? If I were to compete, I'd want to experience shoving matches _and_ wait-sense-throw (my shorthand for what the short-match guy did).

(edit: I'm not sure making it a competition is bad in itself, but I do understand about "investing in loss" as a push-hands training concept. My guess is that if everyone competed according to principles, it would be a boring competition where players would just stand touching each other ... but things would probably get interesting just before time ran out.  )


----------



## Tez3

Tony Dismukes said:


> Really? Which techniques? All of them? You think every technique taught in every martial art is fully proven and equally valid? I don't.
> 
> I would say that _most_ techniques taught in a martial arts school _could_ work, given the right context and circumstances. That doesn't mean that they are all good and any failure to apply them is down to the individual being able to hold up under pressure.
> 
> I wrote a blog post a while back about high-percentage vs low-percentage techniques.
> 
> Some techniques are relatively useful and reliable in a wide variety of situations and don't rely on having skill and attributes vastly superior to your opponent. Those would be high-percentage techniques.
> 
> Other techniques are useful in fewer circumstances or rely on having superior attributes. Those are lower percentage.
> 
> Some techniques can work, but are risky. Others are safer and carry less of a penalty for failure.
> 
> Some techniques can be effective, but only in certain specific circumstances. Depending on the instructor, those circumstances may not be correctly explained.
> 
> Some techniques were valid as applied in their original context, but through generations of teachers who have never used them in a combative setting, the details and understanding to make them functional have been lost.
> 
> Some techniques could theoretically work, but would require superior skill and attributes, an incompetent opponent attacking in an unnatural way, and quite a bit of luck.
> 
> When I was in the Bujinkan, I was taught some techniques that I can guarantee have never been used by anyone in a real fight ever and never will be. That can happen when an instructor gets creative working with a compliant uke who feeds a highly stylized and unrealistic attack. (I'm not dissing everything taught in the Bujinkan, just some specific moves.)
> 
> Testing a technique is about establishing where it falls in the categories above. You really need a community of martial artists testing the techniques in a variety of settings over time to do it right. If I find a technique that works well for me, but only 1% of practitioners can get it to work, then it's probably not the best move to make the mainstay of my schools curriculum. Contrariwise, there might be another technique that just isn't reliable for me, but works well for lots of other people.




I disagree, the techniques you know work you will have worked out by training them, by drilling them and by 'testing them' where you train, you don't take a random technique then go off and 'test' in a competition. You don't watch your instructor demonstrate a roundhouse kick, do it yourself a few times them go off to fight an opponent in a full contact fight with only a sketchy knowledge of whether it works or not. That's what I mean, the techniques you do will be the ones you've trained.

Frankly if you are being taught techniques that have been used with a compliant uke then the blame isn't on the technique is it, it's the instructor who is at fault.

You should know whether techniques are reliable long before you get into a competition.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> I'll just state that it takes quite a bit of skill to keep a skilled grappler like Marcelo Garcia from taking you down. So Chen being able to keep Garcia from establishing a grappling top game shows that there's definitely some skill involved in Tushiou practice.


I'll agree with your first part.

Regarding how he got his skill, I'd say it comes more from the other practices in Taiji, and yes, quite possibly from his push hands practice.  But not from push hands competition.

And no matter how you want to present it, he is still not a grappling specialist.  His training does include some elements of grappling.  But he's not a specialist in the same way a bjj guy is. And yes, his skill in Taiji enabled him to make Marcelo work for what he got.


----------



## Flying Crane

mograph said:


> FWIW ... when I timed a push-hands competition, I saw a lot of guys shoving each other around, using strength against strength. Yep, that can be useful in a number of contexts, but it's not high-level sensitivity _according to taijiquan yin-yang principles_.
> 
> But there was _one_ guy who competed according to principles: he waited (while both players were touching) and deflected investigative attempts at pushing or controlling him ... then all of a sudden, he threw the opponent. He won his matches very quickly, and with no back-and-forth shoving. 10 points was a win, and he won with 12 each time: four throws x 3 points each.
> 
> Did he win? No. In the end, he just ran out of gas and lost the final, if I recall. My (likely baseless) speculation may be that because he was very sensitive and won his training matches very quickly (and rarely experienced shoving matches), he never had to sustain his effort through a tournament.
> 
> The point? If I were to compete, I'd want to experience shoving matches _and_ wait-sense-throw (my shorthand for what the short-match guy did).
> 
> (edit: I'm not sure making it a competition is bad in itself, but I do understand about "investing in loss" as a push-hands training concept. My guess is that if everyone competed according to principles, it would be a boring competition where players would just stand touching each other ... but things would probably get interesting just before time ran out.  )


Interesting observations, and illustrates my point exactly.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tez3 said:


> I disagree, the techniques you know work you will have worked out by training them, by drilling them and by 'testing them' where you train, you don't take a random technique then go off and 'test' in a competition. You don't watch your instructor demonstrate a roundhouse kick, do it yourself a few times them go off to fight an opponent in a full contact fight with only a sketchy knowledge of whether it works or not. That's what I mean, the techniques you do will be the ones you've trained.
> 
> Frankly if you are being taught techniques that have been used with a compliant uke then the blame isn't on the technique is it, it's the instructor who is at fault.
> 
> You should know whether techniques are reliable long before you get into a competition.


I think you're missing the point. Absolutely no one is talking about randomly picking a technique, doing it a couple of times, then going off to test it for the first time in a full-contact fight. If you think that this is what Kung Fu Wang or anyone else in this thread is advocating, then you are misunderstanding what was meant.

We're talking about testing techniques (actually it goes beyond specific techniques, but let's stick with just those for now) with a non-compliant partner/opponent. This can be done with a huge range of formats and intensities and I personally think it's a good idea to explore as much of that range as possible.

There is a huge amount of stuff being taught in the martial arts world that has not gone through that testing process. As a result, a lot of people are being taught crap. In other cases they are being taught material that has validity in the right context, but neither instructor nor students understand what that context is.

If you actually disagree with something I'm saying, that's cool. You've got a lot of experience and I respect your opinion. However, please go back to my previous post and point out what specifically I said that you disagree with instead of arguing against a straw man idea that neither I nor anyone else is putting forth.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

mograph said:


> But there was _one_ guy who competed according to principles: he waited (while both players were touching) and deflected investigative attempts at pushing or controlling him ... then all of a sudden, he threw the opponent. He won his matches very quickly, and with no back-and-forth shoving. 10 points was a win, and he won with 12 each time: four throws x 3 points each.
> 
> Did he win? No. In the end, he just ran out of gas and lost the final, if I recall. My (likely baseless) speculation may be that because he was very sensitive and won his training matches very quickly (and rarely experienced shoving matches), he never had to sustain his effort through a tournament.



Yeah, that kind of performance is beautiful to see and in my opinion demonstrates some of the highest level of technique, whether you see it in push hands, judo, or sumo.

The problem is, it's not easy to develop the level of skill and sensitivity to pull it off against a tough, non-compliant opponent. In my experience, many of the people who can demonstrate those sort of beautiful blending energy throws in a compliant setting struggle to make them work in a non-compliant context.



mograph said:


> The point? If I were to compete, I'd want to experience shoving matches _and_ wait-sense-throw (my shorthand for what the short-match guy did).



Agreed. I think there's a tricky balance to figure out. Being able to blend with your opponent's energy and defeat his strength with minimal use of your own is the highest level of technique. The folks I've seen who can pull that off against tough, strong, skilled, non-compliant opponents have come through the trenches of working through those shoving matches, rather than spending all their time with more flowing, compliant practice. On the other hand, it takes a while to get there and so many competitive grapplers don't get past the approaches that work at the lower levels. I think the best approach is to experience both the rough-and-tumble shoving matches but _also_ work the more idealized forms of practice that remind you of what you are ultimately aiming for.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Tony Dismukes said:


> We're talking about testing techniques (actually it goes beyond specific techniques, but let's stick with just those for now) with a non-compliant partner/opponent. This can be done with a huge range of formats and intensities and I personally think it's a good idea to explore as much of that range as possible.


Agree!

In the following "individual technique testing" clip, the "rhino guard" is tested against "punching". It should be also tested against

- kicking,
- locking,
- throwing, and
- any combination of the above.


----------



## K-man

Tony Dismukes said:


> Competition push hands may not match up with your use of the exercise, but that "shoving match" involves genuine skill and technique. From my standpoint, I can see martial application for that skill, so I would say that there is benefit to be had. I'm not saying those benefits are any better or worse than what you get out of your approach to push hands, but I'm saying they are definitely there.


Competition push hands is just that, competition. It is just a way of training a very important concept and it certainly has a martial application.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Just because you can apply something in a fraction of a second doesn't make it not grappling. Ronda Rousey will practice continuous uchikomis in the gym so that she can throw someone in the cage in a fraction of a second.


Quite true. It is knowing when to utilise what you are training. In your example of Ronda Rousey you have describe exactly how it would be utilised, but you might notice that in the example you are citing, she doesn't start in the same way that you would start the push hands competition.



Tony Dismukes said:


> For me, it's an exercise for developing sensitivity, balance, and structure in the context of medium-to-close range contact with another person.  Furthermore, it helps develop skill in manipulating the other person's balance and structure. For a minority of tai chi practitioners, it's also a competitive martial sport.


Exactly.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Okay, in the pub altercation, an aggressor might initiate contact through shoving, or tackling, or throwing a punch which the defender might block and stick to. In this period of contact (which might be short or extended), the defender could use the skills and attributes developed through push hands to maintain his own balance and disrupt his attacker's balance, possibly even applying a throw or armlock.


You are describing exactly as I teach it to be used in my training. I wasn't questioning its martial application in the general sense. I was questioning *Hanzou*'s or *Drop Bear*'s understanding of it which seems to be simply black or white.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Using said attributes to apply and defend against strikes would be more the province of sticky hands than push hands, but there is some overlap in the skills being developed between the two training methodologies.


What starts as sticky hands transitions into push hands, or a lock or strike for that matter, as the opportunity arises.



Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm curious - how exactly are you working with your training partners to test your techniques?


Although the question is not directed to me I will describe the way we test it. Against an unscripted attack, with or without a weapon, the defender must engage and redirect or control the attacker's arms to provide the opportunity to counter.



Tony Dismukes said:


> I'd say both the person _and_ the techniques have to be tested. Ideally in as many ways possible (for both the person and the techniques).


Agree totally.


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## Kung Fu Wang

I don't mine to play the "moving step push hands" but I don't like to play the "fix step push hands". The reason is simple. I don't like to "yield". I like to "move out of the way". 

When my opponent pushes me, I want to

- use my "stealing step" to move my body out of his pushing path,
- borrow his force,
- add my force, and
- lead him into the emptiness.

I can use the "moving step PH" format to develop something that's useful in fighting. I can't do that in "fix step PH" format. Unfortunately, the last push hands tournament judge I was assigned to (in Houston), there was only "fix step PH" and there was no "moving step PH".

For some unknown reason, In US, the "fix step PH" is more popular than the "moving step PH".


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## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> When you try to cram a square peg into a round hole, that's what happens.  That's what happens when you turn push hands into a competition.
> 
> But when your only experience with Taiji is thru YouTube videos, well you are going to have a piss-poor understanding of what is really going on.  I am happy to keep pointing out to you that you know nothing of Taiji.  You are welcome to wallow in your ignorance and ignore the education that people here are willing to give you.  But when you keep spouting nonsense, well I'll keep telling you that you are wrong.



The issue is that when tested against brute force and shoving it falls apart which is your observation of competition. And you blame the comp and not the taiji.

Yet monograph has observed technical taiji working against shoving. Still in competition.

So the testing is refining the taiji into a usable system that has demonstrable evidence rather than being watered down.

This is true with a lot of technique and what people don't understand if they haven't used their stuff under pressure.

I do this to the wrong sort of bjjer as an example. In that I will just maul the guy and see if he holds up.


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> The issue is that when tested against brute force and shoving it falls apart which is your observation of competition. And you blame the comp and not the taiji.
> 
> Yet monograph has observed technical taiji working against shoving. Still in competition.
> 
> So the testing is refining the taiji into a usable system that has demonstrable evidence rather than being watered down.
> 
> This is true with a lot of technique and what people don't understand if they haven't used their stuff under pressure.
> 
> I do this to the wrong sort of bjjer as an example. In that I will just maul the guy and see if he holds up.


Nope.  People who compete don't understand what skills push hands is supposed to develop.  The competition becomes something else, not push hands.  Push hands is not meant to be competitive in the way a competition like that makes it.

Face it:  Taiji and push hands is something you simply to not understand.  It's something you will ever understand from watching you tube.


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## drop bear

K-man said:


> You are describing exactly as I teach it to be used in my training. I wasn't questioning its martial application in the general sense. I was questioning *Hanzou*'s or *Drop Bear*'s understanding of it which seems to be simply black or white.



You have this idea that a complete system exists anywhere.

And it just doesn't. Boxing does not have good takedown defence but has martial application.

You were trying to overcomplicate things.


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## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> Nope.  People who compete don't understand what skills push hands is supposed to develop.  The competition becomes something else, not push hands.  Push hands is not meant to be competitive in the way a competition like that makes it.
> 
> Face it:  Taiji and push hands is something you simply to not understand.  It's something you will ever understand from watching you tube.



I don't have to. I can understand shoving and i have countered the taiji.


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## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> I don't have to. I can understand shoving and i have countered the taiji.


Oh now that is funny.

Again, you show your ignorance.


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## Flying Crane

Nobody says you shouldn't train to develop realistic skills.  If you want to be able to fight, then of course you have to.  Nobody says otherwise.

What people apparently don't understand is that push hands is not the way to do that.  As I've said a few times now, push hands is not fighting.  Push hands translates poorly into a competition.  Push hands is a drill meant to develop certain skills.  How one does directly with push hands when it's forced into a competition method is no indicator of how well he can fight.  The skills he develops in training push hands, however, do translate into fighting and are useful in other context.  But push hands itself is a very poor platform from which to claim fighting ability. 

I realize a lot of people have little or no direct experience with this, and may not be able to understand it.  So some of us try to explain it.   But without some actual quality experience, apparently you may never understand it.  That's the way it is with some of these things.


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## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> Oh now that is funny.
> 
> Again, you show your ignorance.



I am not saying I am not ignorant on the subject. I am just working off what I am reading here. 

And there seems to be a taiji that works in competition,that works in sparring,that works across systems. But your taiji doesn't.

We have been told that even a technical taiji works in those environments. Just not your version.

So apart from you learning the super secret that honestly as an argument translates to no justification

 I am just not sure how you are justifying your position here.


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## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> I am not saying I am not ignorant on the subject. I am just working off what I am reading here.
> 
> And there seems to be a taiji that works in competition,that works in sparring,that works across systems. But your taiji doesn't.
> 
> We have been told that even a technical taiji works in those environments. Just not your version.
> 
> So apart from you learning the super secret that honestly as an argument translates to no justification
> 
> I am just not sure how you are justifying your position here.


Because you don't understand it.  

And no, I didn't learn it.  I studied long enough to understand that it's not a good method for me.  But I do have a sense of it.

Try this.  Balance is useful in fighting.  But you would never base someone's ability to fight on how well he trains on the balance beam.

Likewise, strength can be useful.  But you would never equate doing push ups with being able to fight.

That's what push hands is.  It develops useful skills, but itself is not fighting.  Push-ups develop useful strength, but is not fighting.  Working on a balance beam develops useful skills, but is not fighting.  Hell, even hitting a heavy bag develops useful skills, but is not fighting.  You would never (I hope, at least) develop a competition centered around hitting a heavy bag and pretend that equates to one's true fighting skills.

If you can't understand these comparisons, you will never get it. Hey, I've tried to educate you on it.  It's up to you to get it or recognize that without some direct experience of a certain quality you will simply never get it.


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## mograph

I think that you guys may not be so far away from each other. Would you all agree that:

valid competitions do not _always_ need to involve skills that one might use in combat (e.g. fitness competitions)

push hands (alone) is not suitable for combat
shoving matches are force-against-force: not high-level taijiquan sensing/yin/yang skill
players in a push hands competition may or may not display high-level taijiquan sensing skills


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## drop bear

mograph said:


> I think that you guys may not be so far away from each other. Would you all agree that:
> 
> valid competitions do not _always_ need to involve skills that one might use in combat (e.g. fitness competitions)
> 
> push hands (alone) is not suitable for combat
> shoving matches are force-against-force: not high-level taijiquan sensing/yin/yang skill
> players in a push hands competition may or may not display high-level taijiquan sensing skills



The shoving is important or people get to caught up with the technical and move away from the practical.

I have seen people who are technically skilled get bullied into defeat. And that is also something you have to experience to understand.

If you can overcome that you gain a new skill set.


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## mograph

drop bear said:


> The shoving is important or people get to caught up with the technical and move away from the practical.


So you disagree with point #1?


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## drop bear

mograph said:


> So you disagree with point #1?



I agree with all of your points.


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## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> Because you don't understand it.
> 
> And no, I didn't learn it.  I studied long enough to understand that it's not a good method for me.  But I do have a sense of it.
> 
> Try this.  Balance is useful in fighting.  But you would never base someone's ability to fight on how well he trains on the balance beam.
> 
> Likewise, strength can be useful.  But you would never equate doing push ups with being able to fight.
> 
> That's what push hands is.  It develops useful skills, but itself is not fighting.  Push-ups develop useful strength, but is not fighting.  Working on a balance beam develops useful skills, but is not fighting.  Hell, even hitting a heavy bag develops useful skills, but is not fighting.  You would never (I hope, at least) develop a competition centered around hitting a heavy bag and pretend that equates to one's true fighting skills.
> 
> If you can't understand these comparisons, you will never get it. Hey, I've tried to educate you on it.  It's up to you to get it or recognize that without some direct experience of a certain quality you will simply never get it.



Like speed bag championships.


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## K-man

drop bear said:


> You have this idea that a complete system exists anywhere.
> 
> And it just doesn't. Boxing does not have good takedown defence but has martial application.
> 
> You were trying to overcomplicate things.


I don't know what you are talking about. Push hands is not a complete system. It is a means of training a very small but important part of a system.


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## Flying Crane

mograph said:


> I think that you guys may not be so far away from each other. Would you all agree that:
> 
> valid competitions do not _always_ need to involve skills that one might use in combat (e.g. fitness competitions)
> 
> push hands (alone) is not suitable for combat
> shoving matches are force-against-force: not high-level taijiquan sensing/yin/yang skill
> players in a push hands competition may or may not display high-level taijiquan sensing skills


I can agree with that, with the caveat that for the first one, it needs to be understood that it is no indicator of ones ability to fight.


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## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> Like speed bag championships.


Exactly.  He has some skills from training the speed bag that may well be useful in fighting.  But what he can do on the bag in and of itself is no guarantee that he can fight at all.  And whether or not I can match his skills on the bag is no indicator one way or the other if I could defeat him in a real fight.


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## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> The shoving is important or people get to caught up with the technical and move away from the practical.
> 
> I have seen people who are technically skilled get bullied into defeat. And that is also something you have to experience to understand.
> 
> If you can overcome that you gain a new skill set.


I understand what you are getting at here, but that is what undermines the purpose of push hands.  Competition drives the desire to "win" and that can get in the way of the process of learning and developing a skill.  When people go for the win in push hands and start shoving like that, it disrupts the learning.  People have "success" with the shoving and they then believe that they are good at push hands, and they believe that is what push hands is all about.  But it simply isn't.  That's why I keep saying, push hands is a training drill. It is not fighting, it is not sparring, and it is an extremely poor platform for competition.

Competition push hands is kind of like getting together with someone to work on some defense skills off of punching attacks, but the first thing you do is start kicking your training partner in the shins and never is a punch thrown.  You just turned the whole experience into something else, but you still want to pretend that you trained some good punch defenses.

If a Taiji guy wants to spar and compete in some venue, that is his choice to make.  But push hands is a poor way to do it, and it's a poor way to judge someone's skills.


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## mograph

I think there may be differences regarding the definition and goals of the concept of a competition?


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## Tony Dismukes

Yeah, I don't think anyone is saying that performance in a push hands competition is proof of how well someone can fight.


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## mograph

It could probably be said that sensitive push-hands skill is a _necessary, but not sufficient_ condition for high-level taijiquan skill.


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## drop bear

K-man said:


> I don't know what you are talking about. Push hands is not a complete system. It is a means of training a very small but important part of a system.



So is boxing.


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## sinthetik_mistik

I didn't read all 13 page of this forum, and i really don't know enough about either martial art to say with conviction which would win (though i would guess MMA to be honest) one fact i found interesting is that Bolo Yeung's favorite martial art is Tai Chi. not what you'd expect from a man with muscles the size of... well i don't want to come across as being prejudiced


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## Kung Fu Wang

One time I asked a Taiji instructor, "Which move will you use to kill your opponent if you have to?" He looked at me as if I came from another planet.

IMO, you need "finish moves" to finish a fight. What kind of "finish moves" will Taiji guys likes to use? As far as I can remember, no Taiji guy like to talk about this and I don't know why.


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## mograph

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One time I asked a Taiji instructor, "Which move will you use to kill your opponent if you have to?" He looked at me as if I came from another planet.
> 
> IMO, you need "finish moves" to finish a fight. What kind of "finish moves" will Taiji guys likes to use? As far as I can remember, no Taiji guy like to talk about this and I don't know why.



If a student had asked that of my Yiquan sifu, he would have turned away and ignored the student until he left. (That might explain the look you got.) Such a question would indicate to a teacher that the inquirer were more belligerent than he were wise ... or that the inquirer watches too many sport matches or Kung Fu movies and doesn't understand the real, lasting consequences of street fighting. As a result, a taijiquan teacher would not want to teach that student, much less tell him what move could be used to kill somebody. Not only would it give someone ideas on how to kill somebody, it might get back to the teacher if things go wrong and the student were to actually kill somebody. Reflect on this, please.

A taijiquan aim is to end the fight, not to end the person. How? If we can't talk them down, discourage them, or run away (and we had to fight), we might stomp on their instep or we might break the knee with a low kick (from the side) so they can't stand or walk. Then we'd walk away, or stand at a distance and call 911 or whatever.

Now, before you reply, I know you wrote "if you have to," but that leads me to ask: when does a law-abiding civilian have to _kill_ somebody in hand-to-hand combat? If the opponent were belligerent, we would just need to take away their means to be belligerent: take the knife, the gun, the mobility (hence the foot/knee stomp/kick). Or maybe we'd break their arm. Then we'd walk/run away or stand at a distance and call the cops as I described above. 

If someone doesn't understand the concept of fighting that I've just described (along with its inherent distaste for street fighting), then sorry, no taijiquan teacher worth his salt would teach him anything.


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## Tez3

mograph said:


> If someone doesn't understand the concept of fighting that I've just described (along with its inherent distaste for street fighting),



_This is such a good answer for many reasons_.

 I know some people enjoy these style v style 'conversations', they like imagining some sort of film scenario where fighters from different styles go around challenging each other but most mature martial artists don't think like that. MMA is for people who like to fight competitively, not brawl on the street, they enjoy the mental challenge of outwitting their opponents with physical moves. Most MMA fighters are very sportsmanlike and while it may look like it during bouts don't' actually want to hurt their opponents. Thinking of them as thugs who brawl on the street is a huge disservice. I enjoy taking part in MMA it's a challenge and it's fun. I also practice Wado Ryu karate, have done for many years, it was designed as other karate styles were for civilian self defence again not for brawling or challenging people to see who is best. It is for defending yourself and like taijiquan not for destroying people.


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## mograph

Tez3 said:


> _This is such a good answer for many reasons_.
> 
> I know some people enjoy these style v style 'conversations', they like imagining some sort of film scenario where fighters from different styles go around challenging each other but most mature martial artists don't think like that.
> 
> ... Most MMA fighters are very sportsmanlike and while it may look like it during bouts don't' actually want to hurt their opponents.
> 
> ... I also practice Wado Ryu karate, have done for many years, it was designed as other karate styles were for civilian self defence again not for brawling or challenging people to see who is best. It is for defending yourself and like taijiquan not for destroying people.


Yes. Thanks for reminding us of the point of martial arts, not just Taijiquan.


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## Tez3

mograph said:


> Yes. Thanks for reminding us of the point of martial arts, not just Taijiquan.




The thanks are mine to you for such a good, common sense post. ( I wish we had the little bowing chap emoticon back!)


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## mograph

Thanks. Yeah, it used to be :asian: , but that seems to have been lost. Oh, well ...


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## TSDTexan

My money is on the guy who has "fully" mastered the 113 movement (long form) Yang style. He is going to be taken for a weakling, and therein, the pride of the MMA fighter will be his undoing.


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## Tez3

TSDTexan said:


> My money is on the guy who has "fully" mastered the 113 movement (long form) Yang style. He is going to be taken for a weakling, and therein, the pride of the MMA fighter will be his undoing.




What 'pride'? MMA fighters are sportsmanlike and as humble as any other martial artist, discount what you see on the television, that's showmanship designed by promotions to bring in the ticket money.
 I also know good MMA fighters who are CMA trained.


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## Hanzou

TSDTexan said:


> My money is on the guy who has "fully" mastered the 113 movement (long form) Yang style. He is going to be taken for a weakling, and therein, the pride of the MMA fighter will be his undoing.



I would love to see that happen, and I'm not being sarcastic. That would shake the MMA world to its core, and make things even more interesting.

However, we both know that's never going to happen for whatever reason.

Until then, we'll always have this;





[/QUOTE]


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## TSDTexan

Tez3 said:


> What 'pride'? MMA fighters are sportsmanlike and as humble as any other martial artist, discount what you see on the television, that's showmanship designed by promotions to bring in the ticket money.
> I also know good MMA fighters who are CMA trained.



Well, my answer (to the OP) was part tongue in cheek. But if I were going to be serious...
I assert that just because the pride is not "supposed to be" in an MMA fighter doesn't mean it isn't there. Almost every hard stylist I know believes they could take a tai chi guy, almost to the degree that "I wouldn't fight that guy, I would hurt or kill him. It wouldn't be fair".

That level of admitted confidence doesn't extend to EVERY hard stylist. Being a gentleman has nothing to do with it, and at the same time shows that a certain element of pride is present.


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## Tez3

TSDTexan said:


> Almost every hard stylist I know believes they could take a tai chi guy,  QUOTE]
> 
> Tai Chi to most people is the slow moving style that old people and others do for exercise, not a fighting style. If you said to most MMA people about fighting a Tai Chi person they'd look at you as if you were mad, only CMA people tend to know about Tai Chi as being anything other than an exercise system.
> I'm certainly no gentleman when it comes to anything never mind martial arts.


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## TSDTexan

Yeah.. I was saying the same thing back on the bunkai thread, that you were saying here. My first intro to tai chi was a short staff weapons form. And that was it. I didn't even know it was called tai chi, at the time. I didn't know the name, cause my neighbor who taught me knew zero English, as He was a Chinese immigrant old man. And apparently that was all he knew or was willing to teach.


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## Jacknplan

Hi guys!

New to the forum and I am a Tai Chi practitioner. I'm bewildered by how simplistic many of you think fighting is... There it's lots of variables to take into account to judge 2 people's skills.

MMA is sport orientated, thus includes lots of aerobic and stamina building exercises - Tai Chi can also be seen as a combat sport if entered into competitions.

A man with no fitness cannot take on a fully fledged athlete - which many MMA fighters are.

Now, here is an example of a UFC fighter, who studies Yang Style Tai Chi and fights within UFC against MMA stylists. If you observe, this man walks and talks Tai Chi - with his fists. I know his trainer and can vouch for the authenticity of Nicks Tai Chi - his trainer being a man highly respected in the WCK community.


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## Tez3

I'm very aware of Nick, I've watched him for a while now but would remind you that when competing in MMA he is an MMA fighter, he isn't _just_ doing Tai Chi no more than any other fighter is_ just_ using a single style.
Many people are still missing the point of MMA even though it's name gives it away, it's mixed martial arts. Yes, many fighters will have a primary art but in an MMA competition they are using as many as needed to win. No single style is 'best' in MMA, that would negate the point of MMA, the whole point is to mix up styles, and not have a style versus style fight.


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## TSDTexan

punisher73 said:


> Just for discussion.  I remember seeing this video on Chen Tai Chi awhile back.


Ragdoll'd


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## Tony Dismukes

Jacknplan said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> New to the forum and I am a Tai Chi practitioner. I'm bewildered by how simplistic many of you think fighting is... There it's lots of variables to take into account to judge 2 people's skills.
> 
> MMA is sport orientated, thus includes lots of aerobic and stamina building exercises - Tai Chi can also be seen as a combat sport if entered into competitions.
> 
> A man with no fitness cannot take on a fully fledged athlete - which many MMA fighters are.
> 
> Now, here is an example of a UFC fighter, who studies Yang Style Tai Chi and fights within UFC against MMA stylists. If you observe, this man walks and talks Tai Chi - with his fists. I know his trainer and can vouch for the authenticity of Nicks Tai Chi - his trainer being a man highly respected in the WCK community.


A few things concerning Osipczak ...

From what I understand, he primarily trained in Tai Chi during his 5 year hiatus in MMA competition from 2010 to 2015. He returned to MMA this year but has only one fight (a win) so far as a self-identified Tai Chi exponent. The video above was posted 2 years ago - so the fights depicted are prior to his immersion in the internal arts.

Based on an interview from shortly before his return to MMA, it sounds like the primary influence of the Tai Chi on his fighting style is the stuff he's learned about principles and quality of body movement, rather than specific techniques. This makes perfect sense to me.

As Tez points out, Tai Chi is just one of the elements of Osipczak's style.


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## TSDTexan

Tony Dismukes said:


> A few things concerning Osipczak ...
> 
> From what I understand, he primarily trained in Tai Chi during his 5 year hiatus in MMA competition from 2010 to 2015. He returned to MMA this year but has only one fight (a win) so far as a self-identified Tai Chi exponent. The video above was posted 2 years ago - so the fights depicted are prior to his immersion in the internal arts.
> 
> Based on an interview from shortly before his return to MMA, it sounds like the primary influence of the Tai Chi on his fighting style is the stuff he's learned about principles and quality of body movement, rather than specific techniques. This makes perfect sense to me.
> 
> As Tez points out, Tai Chi is just one of the elements of Osipczak's style.


Hi Tony.

I am in agreement here... and I pretty much think until MMA really gets serious coverage and traction in China we are not going to see traditional CMA on film. Even then with rulesets we will only see part of the self defense applications.


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## Tony Dismukes

Osipczak actually posted on MartialTalk a couple of times back in 2013 to talk about himself in the third person and promote his website, but he didn't stick around to actually carry on a conversation. Too bad. I'd love to hear more detail about how he feels his Tai Chi training has benefited his MMA.


----------



## Xue Sheng

I said this before on MT, I had a conversation a few years back with an MMA guy and he was willing to train anything that he felt would help him win. At that time he was training Qigong because he felt it helped his relaxation in the ring. He also had a whole lot of questions about taijiquan.

Also talked with a taiji guy who decided to go off and train MMA for a bit and he was having a ball. He was learning how to better use what he had learned under pressure, and the MMA folks were learning how to deal with someone with a good root. As far as he was concerned it was a win win situation on both sides


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## Tez3

Xue Sheng said:


> I said this before on MT, I had a conversation a few years back with an MMA guy *and he was willing to train anything that he felt would help him win*. At that time he was training Qigong because he felt it helped his relaxation in the ring. He also had a whole lot of questions about taijiquan.
> 
> Also talked with a taiji guy who decided to go off and train MMA for a bit and he was having a ball. He was learning how to better use what he had learned under pressure, and the MMA folks were learning how to deal with someone with a good root. As far as he was concerned it was a win win situation on both sides



and this is how it's done... mixed martial arts.


----------

