# Do you know your karate lineage?



## twendkata71 (Aug 12, 2006)

*I am just wondering if all of the members know the lineage of their karate style/or system?  Or their personal training lineage. How far does it go back? *
*Here is the lineage of the style of karate that I currently study.*
*Takahara Peichin& Kusanku                *
*          |*
*   Sakagawa Tode`                             /       Ruruko*
*         |                                                                |*
*Matsumura Sokon                                 /  Hiagoanna  Kanryo*
*         |                                                                |*
* Itosu Tausutsune                                  /  Kyoda  Juhatsu*
*       |                                                                 |*
* Toyama Kanken                                            |*
*     |                                                                   |*
*Onishi Eizo          <  ---------------             - |*
*   |*
* Don Madden*
*   |*
*Me*


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 12, 2006)

I am knowledgeable of my lineage in Sikaran but have to admit that a few of the styles of "Karate" that i have studied in the past i never learned the whole lineage of ( my bad). 
After becoming a member here i learned more about the lineage of most of the systems I have studied (Thank you to all that have posted knowledge of the different systems)


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## stone_dragone (Aug 12, 2006)

I can verifiably trace back only two generations and am having difficulty finding the linking individual that can make it go all the way back to late 1700's okinawa.  All attempts at finding the said individual have been fruitless.  So, in theory I can give my lineage, but since I can't verify, I'm not going to give what could be a lie.


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## twendkata71 (Aug 12, 2006)

[*Perhaps if you give me the style name I could do some research. At my teachers dojo. We have a lineage chart from Japan. It has the lineages of all of the main Karate and Jujitsu schools of Japan. Once I get a few of the teachers in your lineage, I can usually find where the link to the lineage is.*








quote=stone_dragone]I can verifiably trace back only two generations and am having difficulty finding the linking individual that can make it go all the way back to late 1700's okinawa. All attempts at finding the said individual have been fruitless. So, in theory I can give my lineage, but since I can't verify, I'm not going to give what could be a lie.[/quote]


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## stone_dragone (Aug 12, 2006)

twendkata71 said:
			
		

> [*Perhaps if you give me the style name I could do some research. At my teachers dojo. We have a lineage chart from Japan. It has the lineages of all of the main Karate and Jujitsu schools of Japan. Once I get a few of the teachers in your lineage, I can usually find where the link to the lineage is.*
> 
> The issue is finding records of the missing link.  My teacher's instructor is the problem.  I am told that he is a man named Larry White (Goju Ryu).  I am further told that Larry White studied under Peter Urban in Philadelphia (possibly new york). Peter Urban's lineage is easliy tracked from there (Yamaguchi Gogen and Richard Kim and then further back).
> 
> ...


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## Brandon Fisher (Aug 12, 2006)

Only to a certain point.  My Shorin Ryu Shorinkan training lineage is clear but I didn't recieve a black belt with them.  Only with my original instructor and he never was clear on who taught him.


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## twendkata71 (Aug 12, 2006)

*I was unable to find that name anywhere in the lineage charts of the Shuri ryu/ Shorei goju styles. And I looked at he Urban USA Goju sites and could not find the name.  They only have active schools listed.  I have heard that name before. The Larry White that I have heard of is a kenpo master.  On the Shuri ryu linage charts there is a Ray White, and a Gary White,but no Larry White.  Perhaps he did train with Master Urban,but separated from the organization some time ago. Many times when a person leaves an organization their name is ommited from any lineage charts.  Sometimes even their dan rank is revoked by the organization. That would make it impossible to do a adequate research on a persons lineage. Where is this person's school located now? I will do somemore digging. *
*If the style that you practice works for you and is effective, then your instructor and his teacher must have done something right.  The point of my posting the question is to see how many people know their lineage, not weither or not it is from certain lineage. It doesn't matter to me if it is Japanese,Okinawan,Korean, Chinese,etc.*










			
				stone_dragone said:
			
		

> twendkata71 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## twendkata71 (Aug 12, 2006)

*From Master Balas's web site. Apparently his background is in Shotokan karate and Tang soo do, as well as Jujitsu and Aikido.*
*With that information it is easy to get some sort of lineage. It does have his Korean instructor's name listed,but it does not have his Shotokan teacher in Japan name listed.   I have heard of the contributions that Master Balas has made to the martial arts in Ohio.*










			
				Brandon Fisher said:
			
		

> Only to a certain point. My Shorin Ryu Shorinkan training lineage is clear but I didn't recieve a black belt with them. Only with my original instructor and he never was clear on who taught him.


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## stone_dragone (Aug 12, 2006)

twendkata71 said:
			
		

> *I was unable to find that name anywhere in the lineage charts of the Shuri ryu/ Shorei goju styles. And I looked at he Urban USA Goju sites and could not find the name. They only have active schools listed. I have heard that name before. The Larry White that I have heard of is a kenpo master. On the Shuri ryu linage charts there is a Ray White, and a Gary White,but no Larry White. Perhaps he did train with Master Urban,but separated from the organization some time ago. Many times when a person leaves an organization their name is ommited from any lineage charts. Sometimes even their dan rank is revoked by the organization. That would make it impossible to do a adequate research on a persons lineage. Where is this person's school located now? I will do somemore digging. *
> *If the style that you practice works for you and is effective, then your instructor and his teacher must have done something right. The point of my posting the question is to see how many people know their lineage, not weither or not it is from certain lineage. It doesn't matter to me if it is Japanese,Okinawan,Korean, Chinese,etc.*
> 
> 
> ...


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## JasonASmith (Aug 13, 2006)

I will post my lineage when I start in a few weeks, but if I rememer correctly, it's: G. Funakoshi, then the elder Sutrisno(who has passed on), then Tristan Sutrisno, then Gladfelter Sensei....And it seems to me that Gladfelter Sensei mentioned a Sensei Brooks, who was his original Sensei....
When Sensei Brooks passed on, Gladfelter Sensei began his association/training with the Sutrisno clan...Their organization is called Bushi no Te, if I remember correctly...


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## Haze (Aug 13, 2006)

Chojun Miyagi (Goju)
Seikichi Toguchi                                                   
Masanobu Shinjo (Shobukan)
Frank Van Lenten (Goshinkai)  
James W Coker                    
Me


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## TimoS (Aug 13, 2006)

Without checking reference books or web sites, my lineage looks (approximately) like this:

Chotoku Kyan -> Zenpo Shimabukuro and Joen Nakazato (mainly Shimabukuro to the best of my knowledge) -> Isamu Tamotsu -> Motomu Ikubo -> Yuji Matsuoi -> me

Isamu Tamotsu may have had some other teachers as well, but their names aren't known to me. Motomu Ikubo has had other karate teachers, but to my understanding, Tamotsu was his main teacher


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## twendkata71 (Aug 13, 2006)

*Do you do the bogu fighting in your faction of Shorinji ryu? *


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## Shrewsbury (Aug 13, 2006)

shobayashi shorin ryu;

matsumura
itosu
kyan
arakaki
shimbaku 
*Emil Motonick*

Ted Ricketts
Joseph Panachone
will duncan
jay shrewsbury


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## TimoS (Aug 13, 2006)

twendkata71 said:
			
		

> *Do you do the bogu fighting in your faction of Shorinji ryu? *



Yes we do. Our style is basically a spin-off from Renshinkan.


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## TimoS (Aug 13, 2006)

Oh damn! Made a small mistake in the lineage: it should be the older Shimabukuro! Zenryo Shimabukuro and not Zenpo


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## twendkata71 (Aug 14, 2006)

*I enjoy doing the bogu type of kumite.  The Koei kan which my teachers style comes from does bogu kumite with the kendo face masks. I like the modern head gear with the plastic cover much better.*


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## twendkata71 (Aug 14, 2006)

*Have you ever thought of going to Okinawa and training with Shimabuku Eizo Hanshi personally. He is still teaching. He is now in his 80's, but I hear he is still quite agile and alert. It would be a great experience. I am planning a trip to Japan next year to visit the Koei kan. Even though we are no longer affiliated with the Koei kan it will be good to see where our style comes from. *










			
				Shrewsbury said:
			
		

> shobayashi shorin ryu;
> 
> matsumura
> itosu
> ...


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## TimoS (Aug 14, 2006)

twendkata71 said:
			
		

> *I enjoy doing the bogu type of kumite.  The Koei kan which my teachers style comes from does bogu kumite with the kendo face masks. I like the modern head gear with the plastic cover much better.*


We don't use the kendo style helmets, mostly I guess because they are quite expensive. Here's an image that shows the style of helmets in use here in Finland


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## Henderson (Aug 14, 2006)

For what it's worth, mine is.....

Ryuru Ko (Xie Zhongxlang)
Kanryo Higaonna
Chojun Miyagi
Ei'ichi Miyazato / Gogen Yamaguchi
Peter Urban / Yamamoto
Chuck Merriman
Ron Martin
Bob Cook
Me


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## stone_dragone (Aug 14, 2006)

I regretably left out my instructor in Tennessee. After thinking about it, I decided to follow it, so here goes...

*Chatan Yara > Tode Sakugawa > Sokon Matsumura > Itosu Yositsune > Gichen Funakoshi > Hidetaka Nishiyama > David Baize > Bill Kellett > Me*

Since I spent less time with him, I normall didn't consider him when I am asked this question, but he is a teacher of mine an I spent the last three years with him. I suppose that if I begin under another teacher, I will claim lineage under them, too, if it is verifyable. Although he did not affect what I teach nearly as much as my main instructor (in PA), I did learn a great deal from him (and hope to continue in the future).


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## chinto01 (Aug 15, 2006)

twendkata71 said:
			
		

> *Have you ever thought of going to Okinawa and training with Shimabuku Eizo Hanshi personally. He is still teaching. He is now in his 80's, but I hear he is still quite agile and alert. It would be a great experience. I am planning a trip to Japan next year to visit the Koei kan. Even though we are no longer affiliated with the Koei kan it will be good to see where our style comes from. *



I know this was posted for someone else but I have been to Okinawa to train with Shimabukuro Sensei within the last couple of years. He is still in GREAT shape and has the fastest front kick I have ever seen. If you have the chance to train with him and stay at his house do so. You will never forget it!!

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob


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## twendkata71 (Aug 16, 2006)

*So, I assume that you are of Shimabuku Eizo Hanshi's lineage? I have heard so many great things about him.  He was the youngest 10th dan ever promoted on Okinawa.  At age 35.  *








			
				chinto01 said:
			
		

> I know this was posted for someone else but I have been to Okinawa to train with Shimabukuro Sensei within the last couple of years. He is still in GREAT shape and has the fastest front kick I have ever seen. If you have the chance to train with him and stay at his house do so. You will never forget it!!
> 
> In the spirit of bushido!
> 
> Rob


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## Cirdan (Aug 17, 2006)

We have many instructors with diverse backgrounds at our club, but the main lineage would be this:

(Shindo Yoshin Ryu) ---> Shinzaburo Nakayama ->
Sakugawa -> Matsumura -> Itosu -> Funakoshi -> Ohtsuka -> Takamizawa -> Olafsen -> me


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## TimoS (Aug 17, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> Sakugawa -> Matsumura -> Itosu -> Funakoshi -> Ohtsuka -> Takamizawa -> Olafsen -> me



Don't forget that Ohtsuka trained with Choki Motobu also, so you can add him to your lineage as well


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## Cirdan (Aug 17, 2006)

TimoS said:
			
		

> Don't forget that Ohtsuka trained with Choki Motobu also, so you can add him to your lineage as well


 
I could add Mabuni Kenwa too I guess. I also heard Ohtsuka learned from Morhei Ueshiba but I am not sure this is true.


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## TimoS (Aug 17, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> I could add Mabuni Kenwa too I guess.



True



> I also heard Ohtsuka learned from Morhei Ueshiba but I am not sure this is true.



First time I heard about this, but then again, I'm not into Wado (or aikido for that matter). However, there might be something to this, at least several pages seem to be referring to it. A really quick look seems to indicate that they were training together at some stage


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## chinto01 (Aug 17, 2006)

twendkata71 said:
			
		

> *So, I assume that you are of Shimabuku Eizo Hanshi's lineage? I have heard so many great things about him.  He was the youngest 10th dan ever promoted on Okinawa.  At age 35.  *



I am proud to say that I am. My first instructor was of his lineage also but did not speak with him. Upon seperation from my first instructor we made contact with OSensei and went to Okinawa to train with him as well as sponsoring a stop when he toured the states. No matter what people say he is a kind man with a HUGE heart. I feel he genuinely cares for his students as well as the transmisson of his teachings. I am forever indebted to him for showing me what I believe the true spirit of karatedo is!

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob


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## jasonearle (Aug 17, 2006)

starting from my teacher moving backwards with just most of the bigger names. there are lots of names in between I realize but this is a short, general list.   
James Kelly-Ed Parker Sr. & Jr.-William & Frank Chow-Chow Family-Tamo(the monk)- China.     
there is alot of names and years between William Chow and Tamo but my teacher chose to have us remember these bigger ones.  I could list them all but there gets to be so many and such hard names to pronounce.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Sep 6, 2006)

TimoS said:


> Don't forget that Ohtsuka trained with Choki Motobu also, so you can add him to your lineage as well



yes, from what my sensei told me, Otsuka sensei learned basic kihon techniques and the basic 9 katas from funakoshi sensei. then he learned more advanced katas from mabuni sensei (rohai etc). mabuni sensei also influenced the pinan katas that we have in wado. From motobu sensei, otsuka sensei refined his Naihanchi kata and learned also Kumite techniques. 

His jujutsu techniques came from Nakayama Tatsusaburo sensei of Shindo Yoshin-ryu, and also from Motoo Kanaya sensei (of Yoshinko-ryu jujutsu). He also trained, if I am not mistaken, with a Kubo sensei who teaches swordmanship (if not mistaken Yagyu-ryu).


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Sep 6, 2006)

Cirdan said:


> I could add Mabuni Kenwa too I guess. I also heard Ohtsuka learned from Morhei Ueshiba but I am not sure this is true.



yes I heard about this but when I asked sensei, he said he isn't sure. What he know was, that Otsuka sensei and Uyeshiba sensei are both very highly regarded by the Japanese government, and both were instructors to the military, so it is very possible that they are, at least, good friends. If  I am not mistaken, Otsuka sensei received a medal of honor from the Emperor himself, and the title of Meijin Jyudan (wise man, 10th Dan) from the imperial Uncle, for his efforts. Uyeshiba sensei is known to teach high ranking officials also, including Navy admirals.


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## chinto (May 22, 2007)

twendkata71 said:


> *I am just wondering if all of the members know the lineage of their karate style/or system? Or their personal training lineage. How far does it go back? *
> *Here is the lineage of the style of karate that I currently study.*
> *Takahara Peichin& Kusanku *
> *|*
> ...


 

Yes I do, and it is similer to the other shobayashi shorin ryu people who posted.


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## Ray B (May 22, 2007)

Tode Sakugawa
Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura
Anko Itosu
Chosin Chibana
Katsuya Miyahira
Latino H. Gonzalez
Ven Saldajeno
Me  

I do not find it nessesary to list the periferal teachers.
If you have study about the Masters, you will know this.
If you do not, then there is no need to know it.

Lineage should only get your foot in the door.
You need to back-up your claims with ability
knowlege and humility.

Peace.


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