# Most effective Fighting Systems?



## Atlanta-Kenpo

I recently brought up the question who do you think is the most impressive martial artist that you have personaly seen.  After viewing some of the post it got me thinking about styles/systems.

What do you think are the most effective fighting Systems/Styles?  

I am of the thought that Kenpo, Kali, JKD, BJJ, Wing Chung & Systema are some (Not All) of the most effective fighting systems.  Of course it is also my opinion that one should cross train.

What do you think?


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## Seabrook

EPAK is one of the best, if taught by a great instructor.


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## MJS

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> I recently brought up the question who do you think is the most impressive martial artist that you have personaly seen. After viewing some of the post it got me thinking about styles/systems.
> 
> What do you think are the most effective fighting Systems/Styles?
> 
> I am of the thought that Kenpo, Kali, JKD, BJJ, Wing Chung & Systema are some (Not All) of the most effective fighting systems. Of course it is also my opinion that one should cross train.
> 
> What do you think?


 
I agree with Jamie.  Kenpo is one of the best, but like he said, having a good instructor can really influence your views, understandings, etc. of the art.  

As for the other arts...everything has its pros and cons, some being geared more towards a sport aspect and some more towards combat/SD.  I certainly see nothing wrong with taking a look at what else is out there.

Mike


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## kenpocowboy

The beauty of Kenpo is its in analysis of motion and the instruction in the efficiency of movement. I have stared to learn Modern Arnis and it is easy to for me.


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## TheBattousai

I side with Kempo, but if I had to train in something else, I would think Tai Chi, or an old jujutsu system would be also good (for me anyway).


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## evenflow1121

I side with Kenpo because I had to use my Kenpo against others out there, that and well I am a bit biased too.  But if I had to go with others then JKD and Kali come to mind.   Though all you wrote down there are effective.


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## fuhok

I love Kenpo but when i sparred my Wing Chun buddy he devistated me. What really impressed me was his ability to fight blind folded. I am not kidding! He put a blindfold on and we started with our hand touching. Once we started sparring i could not fight back or get away from him. It was a very eye opening experence.


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## Flying Crane

fuhok said:
			
		

> I love Kenpo but when i sparred my Wing Chun buddy he devistated me. What really impressed me was his ability to fight blind folded. I am not kidding! He put a blindfold on and we started with our hand touching. Once we started sparring i could not fight back or get away from him. It was a very eye opening experence.


 
Wing Chun's Chi Sau drills help develop sensitivity based on touch rather than sight.  If someone has highly developed Chi Sau skill, then yes, he can fight blind folded.  

I wonder how well it would work if he was blind folded and you DIDN'T start with your hands touching.  Might be a bit different outcome, but once that contact is made, it works quite well.


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## Atlanta-Kenpo

That is interesting that you had and experience with Wing Chung because I have also had a similar experience but completely opposite.  I recently me a very nice guy who has trained in Wing Chung as well as several styles of Kung Fu and during our sparring sessions I completely destroy him (Please don't take this as bragging because I say this very being humble.).  I was very suprised myself because his Kung Fu expereince is close to my experience in EPAK.  Although I do have experience in Kali, JKD, wrestling and BJJ but I was mainly using EPAK movements.  Though,  I do agree that doing alot of sensitivity training is great and it help alot.  I think being able to be 3 moves ahead really helps me more and I owe that to professr Zach Whitson's Counterpoint Tactical System.  That has realy help me be able to contol what my opponet can or will do and I have several options to deal with it once I am there.  

If anyone out there has not see this or tried it I highly recomed it to ALL EPAK folks out there.  You could get a taste by ordering his DVD fm him web site (www.zachwhitson.com) and you could work on that alone for a year or 2 but rest asure that that is just the tip of the iceburg.  

Has anyone else had a similar expereince?


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## Flying Crane

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> That is interesting that you had and experience with Wing Chung because I have also had a similar experience but completely opposite. I recently me a very nice guy who has trained in Wing Chung as well as several styles of Kung Fu and during our sparring sessions I completely destroy him


 
I think this illustrates the point: there is no truly "superior" style, only superior practitioners.

Any style could be great in the right hands.  Likewise, any style could be lousy in the wrong hands.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I think this illustrates the point: there is no truly "superior" style, only superior practitioners...


 
And, one might say..truly LOUSY practitioners. I have, unfortunately, seen too many kenpo black belts who hit like kids when the heat is on, and subsequently get their heinies handed to them. I visited a kenpo school recently and watched what I thought was a beginners class (nobody wears unifroms...just bottoms and t-shirts). Turned out, I was watching the black belt class working on "advanced" fighting techniques. They were doping some good grafting, though...for purple belts.

Regards,

Dave


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## yipman_sifu

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> That is interesting that you had and experience with Wing Chung because I have also had a similar experience but completely opposite. I recently me a very nice guy who has trained in Wing Chung as well as several styles of Kung Fu and during our sparring sessions I completely destroy him (Please don't take this as bragging because I say this very being humble.). I was very suprised myself because his Kung Fu expereince is close to my experience in EPAK. Although I do have experience in Kali, JKD, wrestling and BJJ but I was mainly using EPAK movements. Though, I do agree that doing alot of sensitivity training is great and it help alot. I think being able to be 3 moves ahead really helps me more and I owe that to professr Zach Whitson's Counterpoint Tactical System. That has realy help me be able to contol what my opponet can or will do and I have several options to deal with it once I am there.
> 
> If anyone out there has not see this or tried it I highly recomed it to ALL EPAK folks out there. You could get a taste by ordering his DVD fm him web site (www.zachwhitson.com) and you could work on that alone for a year or 2 but rest asure that that is just the tip of the iceburg.
> 
> Has anyone else had a similar expereince?


 
Asking what is the best martial art is like asking what is the best cloth I can wear?!, I mean that there is no cloth better than other, each was made for certain circumstances to be weared by us. Same goes for martial arts. I personally like the effective fast fighting rather than submission ocatagon sport arts. Wing Chun is considered to be my choise in any encounter. you cannot say that you have same level as your friend if you are training in different systems. It is like saying that he has the same level of knowledge in Biology as you posses in Physics!. How come we campare, we can't?.

The first poster mentioned about the best fighter. well no idea, but in the 50's, master Wong Shun-Leung was considered to be the best in street encounters, it is said that he defeated many martial artist of varoius systems and styles, and it was known that he finished most of his fights in the first seconds of the encounters. this guy had a big influence on Lee jun fan life and JKD, check about him.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> Though, I do agree that doing alot of sensitivity training is great and it help alot. I think being able to be 3 moves ahead really helps me more and I owe that to professr Zach Whitson's Counterpoint Tactical System. That has realy help me be able to contol what my opponet can or will do and I have several options to deal with it once I am there.
> 
> If anyone out there has not see this or tried it I highly recomed it to ALL EPAK folks out there. You could get a taste by ordering his DVD fm him web site (www.zachwhitson.com) and you could work on that alone for a year or 2 but rest asure that that is just the tip of the iceburg.
> 
> Has anyone else had a similar expereince?


 
Counterpoint is counterproductive, it involves what-ifs, and what-ifs plan failure, and learning something counterproductive will decrease your chance of actually using a technique when you need to.   I don't teach failure.


BTW, read the tag on options at the bottom of my posts, 

DarK LorD


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## celtic_crippler

fuhok said:
			
		

> I love Kenpo but when i sparred my Wing Chun buddy he devistated me. What really impressed me was his ability to fight blind folded. I am not kidding! He put a blindfold on and we started with our hand touching. Once we started sparring i could not fight back or get away from him. It was a very eye opening experence.


 
Does your Kenpo school not train in the concepts of contouring and tracking? 

BTW, I'm a bit biased, but I'd have to say American Kenpo. But I feel most MA's have something to offer.


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## Danny T

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> I recently brought up the question who do you think is the most impressive martial artist that you have personaly seen. After viewing some of the post it got me thinking about styles/systems.
> 
> What do you think are the most effective fighting Systems/Styles?
> 
> I am of the thought that Kenpo, Kali, JKD, BJJ, Wing Chung & Systema are some (Not All) of the most effective fighting systems. Of course it is also my opinion that one should cross train.
> 
> What do you think?




What do I think?
I think I need more information on your question. What do you mean by effective and against what or whom?

First off, Systems/Styles dont fight, the individual fights. I believe all of the systems are good just different. Different emphasis on the different aspects of fighting.
To attempt to make a blanket statement about one being better or more effective would be wrong. Take boxing for example. Would you say boxing is an effective system? How about boxing against Kali where the Kali person has a bolo? What about a Kenpo player vs. a wing chun practitioner where the wing chun person is holding firearm?

I dont believe in absolutes in combat nor is any one way better all the time. Lets look at the UFC last night with Couture and Liddell. Who had the better style? Chuck with his hands down and face open or Randy who had a very good guard which covered his face well. Randy got rocked and lost so which style was more effective?



Danny


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## Doc

In my years I've seen some take an inferior non-combat style and wipe the floor with somebody with it. And I've seen lots of really good styles that are the 'ultimate in self defense' that someone was taught so badly they couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

Style? What style? Can he fight?


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## SAVAGE

I think MMA is the most effective fighting system!

I mix boxing, Hapkido, Judo and Goju Ryu Karate!

I dont learn elements, I learn systems...I wish to attain 4th or 5th dan in each system! Well except boxing of course!

But by learning more than one style, you learn to fight in more ranges and therefore makes you a more complete fighter!

*bows respectfully*


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## Flying Crane

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Counterpoint is counterproductive, it involves what-ifs, and what-ifs plan failure, and learning something counterproductive will decrease your chance of actually using a technique when you need to. I don't teach failure.
> 
> 
> BTW, read the tag on options at the bottom of my posts,
> 
> DarK LorD


 
I personally know nothing of Counterpoint, but maybe Atlanta-Kenpo has had some success with this.  Maybe it doesn't work for you, or you prefer a different approach, but maybe for others it has proven its worth.

We all have our opinions about what things are out there that are no good.  But that doesn't mean it is true.  I am sure that every system that you or I think is no good has plenty of practitioners who could hand us our heads on a plate.


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## JamesB

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I personally know nothing of Counterpoint, but maybe Atlanta-Kenpo has had some success with this. Maybe it doesn't work for you, or you prefer a different approach, but maybe for others it has proven its worth.
> 
> We all have our opinions about what things are out there that are no good. But that doesn't mean it is true. I am sure that every system that you or I think is no good has plenty of practitioners who could hand us our heads on a plate.


 
I've had some experience of Counterpoint and found it to be a really well put-together set of exercises. The flow+sponteneity that can develop from practising the drills is quite significant in my opinion. I've got both Counterpoint DVDs (base+knife techs) which I bought from the kenponet-mall, and....they are well worth looking into imho.

I understand what DKL says about "training for failure".... one problem that I perceive with the exercises is that you never do a "real" technique in the sense that ideal-phase is never accomplished. But really I equate them to sensitivity drills, sticky-hands kind of thing (whatever that is, see other thread!).... they are not intended to replace anything at all, instead to provide an additional help for a specific area of training.

But the group that put together Counterpoint (Mr Zach Witson who I've not ever met) probably train these exercises far more extensively + effectively than most.

Personally I found a lot of value in Counterpoint techs  

James


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## Seabrook

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I am sure that every system that you or I think is no good has plenty of practitioners who could hand us our heads on a plate.


 
You make some good points, but trust me, VERY FEW could hand Clyde his head on a plate, LOL.


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## Flying Crane

Seabrook said:
			
		

> You make some good points, but trust me, VERY FEW could hand Clyde his head on a plate, LOL.


 
That may be true, I have never met him so I can't really argue the point, but it is a big world, with lots of people in it....

This is a thread about what people believe to be effective fighting systems.  Instead of posting the thread in the General category, it was posted in the EPAK category.  This has, in my opinion, slanted the answers heavily in favor of various aspects of Kenpo.  If it had been posted in the General category I think the responses would have been more varied which might have lead to some other interesting conversations.  But hey, it is what it is.

At any rate, I don't see the reason to belittle what someone else posts under the circumstances.  Someone posted their opinion, and someone else belittled what they said.  And what gets me, is that both posters are Kenpo people who feel that Kenpo, or some version of it, is an effective system.  But for some, that apparently isn't common ground enough.  Only THEIR version of kenpo merits respect.  I just don't get that mentality.

Sometimes it just comes across as a basic lack of respect and poor manners.  We can often learn the most where we least expect it.


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## cloak13

with enough dedicated practice and work with a body I believe many martial arts can become effective for self-defense. One of the reasons I like Kenpo is that I did not have to train for years before being able to use it. I've studied a couple different martial arts and found that Kenpo is the best fit for me. I always encourage my students to go out and see what else is out there. In our school we've gotten a lot of students from other styles. I always encourage students to keep their eyes open and if they see something better for them to go for it. 

So, I like Kenpo but strongly encourage my students to see what else is out there as well.


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## donald

Probably the most impressive practioner I have witnessed. Would have to be Mr.Planas. His command of the material was very evident just in the way he moved.


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