# Christian Kenpo Schools



## Kenpsy7

As a christian Kenpo teacher, I am curious. Is your Kenpo school a Christ centered school? Where is it located? Mine is in Puyallup,Washington.


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## Tenguru

Kenpsy7 said:


> As a christian Kenpo teacher, I am curious. Is your Kenpo school a Christ centered school? Where is it located? Mine is in Puyallup,Washington.




What is a "Christ centered" kenpo school?  I have never heard of such a thing.  I thought kenpo was a "killing art".


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## ArmorOfGod

Here is something that may interest you:  http://www.kenpokarateforchrist.com/

Check out their belt requirements.  They are a school within Karate For Christ, which I am a member of.

I teach a style that has its roots in Kempo, but is mixed with other styles, so calling it Kempo would be wrong.  Still, I am a certied instructor from Karate For Christ International, so I freely share my faith in my class.  I have a seperate curriculum for a karate class that would be taught out of a church, but I got the local rec center before I got a chance to teach in my church's gym, so I am using the standard curriculum.

AoG


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## ArmorOfGod

Tenguru said:


> What is a "Christ centered" kenpo school? I have never heard of such a thing. I thought kenpo was a "killing art".


 
No martial art is a "killing art," particularly Kempo.  Kempo is a self-DEFENSE system, not an assasin style.

Plus, Kempo is such a beautiful and unique style that I would have problems calling it something as brutal as a killing art.

AoG


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## Ray

Kenpsy7 said:


> Is your Kenpo school a Christ centered school?


I try to live a Christ-centered life.

My kenpo school is a kenpo-centered school and its purpose is to teach kenpo.  My students know that I am a believer and I am prepared to answer any (religious or otherwise) question they have but, I do not use the school as a proslytizing (sp?) tool.


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## Jade Tigress

Ray said:


> I try to live a Christ-centered life.
> 
> My kenpo school is a kenpo-centered school and its purpose is to teach kenpo.  My students know that I am a believer and I am prepared to answer any (religious or otherwise) question they have but, I do not use the school as a proslytizing (sp?) tool.



I think this a good perspective to keep.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Kenpsy7 said:


> As a christian Kenpo teacher, I am curious. Is your Kenpo school a Christ centered school? Where is it located? Mine is in Puyallup,Washington.


 
This logic makes me nervous, and is potentially dangerous. One of my more technically influential early instructors on my kenpo journey taught, specifically, for the purpose of creating a guerilla warfare unit to maintain a state of preparedness against the upcoming forces of the anti-christ. Our focus was on "killer kenpo", along with resistance-level low-tech weaponry, akin to survivalists cookbook stuff. We started and closed each class in prayer. Techniques were modified and grafted along the logic lines of defending surviving evangelists from SS-type forces predicted by absurd end-of-the-world christian authors.

Although a club can be whatever it wants, I like the idea of keeping philosophy, spirituality and religion OFF the mat. Too much room for the insanity of unbalanced minds once they've merged. I live a deeply examined, rich spiritual life, the crux of which I'd be glad to share with anyone who asks. Up to that point, however, kenpo is about concepts, theory, and mechanical application. Not church.

My own thoughts.

Dave


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## Brian Jones

I see where you are coming from but I don't know that I completley agree.   I don't think you can keep your faith or philosophy off the Mat.  And I don't know that you should.   There is nothing wrong with having a "faith based" School, as long as you are being upfront with your perspective students.  If you say to them, this is what we are about, then fine.  But if you are doing a bit of a "bait and switch" (Hey I am teaching Kenpo, but my real purpose is to bring you to Christ) then I have a problem.

Brian Jones


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## ArmorOfGod

Brian Jones said:


> I see where you are coming from but I don't know that I completley agree. I don't think you can keep your faith or philosophy off the Mat. And I don't know that you should. There is nothing wrong with having a "faith based" School, as long as you are being upfront with your perspective students. If you say to them, this is what we are about, then fine. But if you are doing a bit of a "bait and switch" (Hey I am teaching Kenpo, but my real purpose is to bring you to Christ) then I have a problem.
> 
> Brian Jones


 
Agreed!

AoG


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## Andrew Green

How would a "Islam Kenpo" or "Pagan Christian" school go over?  would your views of it be any different?


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## IWishToLearn

I'm an Agnostic - and I teach Agnostic Kenpo.


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## Flying Crane

ArmorOfGod said:


> No martial art is a "killing art," particularly Kempo. Kempo is a self-DEFENSE system, not an assasin style.
> 
> Plus, Kempo is such a beautiful and unique style that I would have problems calling it something as brutal as a killing art.
> 
> AoG


 
Actually, I would have to disagree.  

Back in the day, even just a couple generations ago, in certain parts of the world where the martial arts that we practice today, including kenpo, have their roots, martial arts was a deadly endeavor.  They were considered a true line of defense against bandits and ruffians in a time when the local police force and legal system could not be counted on to protect the individual.  So the individual took it upon himself to protect himself and his family and friends and village.  The arts at that time were most definitely for killing: quickly, efficiently, and repeatedly if need be.

This notion of the martial arts being purely defensive, and then only using enough force to subdue an attacker and then escape, is a product of our modern society with a trustworthy police force and complex legal system.  We now have the leisure and freedom to act with less finality in a fight.  We can choose to not kill someone if we don't want to.  But that was not always the case in the past, when the choice to not kill might very well mean that you were killed instead and there would be no help from the police or the county prosecutor.

Also, this notion that the arts are about self-betterment and whatnot is also a product of our modern, safer world.  We have the freedom to contemplate things like self-betterment, meditation, using the arts as a spiritual endeavor, etc, because we have less real need to hone our skills for real killing.


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## bushidomartialarts

we have a 'christian kenpo' school in our neck of the woods.  i've watched their adult students act pretty poorly at tournaments, though i'm certain there are those who don't.

their website is pretty spooky, too. the instructor goes on for pages talking about how he's not worshiping idols or allowing demons into his soul.  and - get this - how martial arts were actually invented by Abraham and taught to his army.

i know many (many! many!) christians who practice martial arts and are fantastic practitioners and good people.  but this guy appears to be something of a whack job.


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## mrhnau

Andrew Green said:


> How would a "Islam Kenpo" or "Pagan Christian" school go over?  would your views of it be any different?



Pagan Christian is a bit of an oxymoron. I think you meant Pagan Kenpo?

On to your point...  I don't think people have problems with Buddhist principles being taught or Zen type meditation being practiced. I hold these are fundamentally religious. I don't hear an uproar from most students. I think people that would have an issue with Christian schools would have the same issue with Islamic/Pagan schools. Now, Islamic would be a bit different, considering the current political climate, but I'd be just as scared of Christain looneys teaching students how to kill abortion doctors/nurses.


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## bushidomartialarts

mrhnau said:


> I don't think people have problems with Buddhist principles being taught or Zen type meditation being practiced. I hold these are fundamentally religious.



I think that's the crux of why many Christians have trouble with the martial arts, and it's really in many ways a misconception.

The meditation taught in most schools is fundamentally no different from many Christian meditations:  breathing prayers, the Rosary, labrynth walking for instance produce the same effect in the brain and accomplish the same tasks.

Language barriers can sometimes be quite limiting, but it's often helpful to understand Zen as a philosophy rather than a religion.


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## Ray

bushidomartialarts said:


> and - get this - how martial arts were actually invented by Abraham and taught to his army.


I happen to have a book written by a Japanese man, head of a Japanese style, that says Moses, Christ and Abraham visited Japan for instruction (as I recall, it says Moses learned how to use the staff and Jesus learned philosophy in Japan).

Of course this has nothing to do with the subject of the thread.


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## mrhnau

Ray said:


> I happen to have a book written by a Japanese man, head of a Japanese style, that says Moses, Christ and Abraham visited Japan for instruction (as I recall, it says Moses learned how to use the staff and Jesus learned philosophy in Japan).



While interesting, I'd love to hear his proof.


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## bushidomartialarts

Ray said:


> I happen to have a book written by a Japanese man, head of a Japanese style, that says Moses, Christ and Abraham visited Japan for instruction (as I recall, it says Moses learned how to use the staff and Jesus learned philosophy in Japan).
> 
> Of course this has nothing to do with the subject of the thread.



i've heard of that book a couple of times before.  what was the name of it?  do you think the author believed what he was writing?  of course, there's some evidence to suggest jesus visited the mayans...


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## Flying Crane

mrhnau said:


> Now, Islamic would be a bit different, considering the current political climate, but I'd be just as scared of Christain looneys teaching students how to kill abortion doctors/nurses.


 
Actually, there is a Chinese Islamic Longfist style.  In certain areas of China there are large Muslim populations.  Generally it just means that this is the art practiced by the people in that area, who are predominantly Muslim.  But in Asia, I don't believe the religion, per se, is taught alongside the art.  I think the "creep factor", if you will, enters in when somebody tries to use their art as a vehicle to promote their religion.  Obviously, people of all kinds of religions practice martial arts.  It's just when they get used as an evangelical tool, regardless of the religion being promoted, that I think they get a bit wacked out and creepy.

If someone is a religious individual and they try to instill honorable behavior in their teaching of the martial art, there is certainly nothing wrong with that.  But like someone earlier commented, if they are using a bait and switch to get you into their school and suddenly start pushing their religion on you unexpectedly and unwelcomed, they have crossed a line.  People of a like mind can certainly join together and mix elements of their religion with their martial arts training and that is OK, because everyone is there for that reason.  But it should be openly understood by everyone entering into that kind of training.

as far as trying to trace martial arts origins back to the Bible and whatnot, that's just silly.  Obviously people have been fighting each other and making war upon each other since we first climbed down from the trees.  All cultures had some form of fighting systems that they used.  Many of these systems have been lost to the ages, and you cannot trace those specific methods as the ancestors of today's arts.


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## matt.m

I may be out of my element but when I learned judo we were not allowed to wear jewelry of any kind.....watch, necklace, etc.  No religious medallions or cross/crucifix.  In hapkido and tae kwon do it is the same from my experience.

You are there to learn an art not chit chat so that is why it was always dobok, belt and practitioners....period.

Just a thought.


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## Touch Of Death

Tenguru said:


> What is a "Christ centered" kenpo school? I have never heard of such a thing. I thought kenpo was a "killing art".


You thought wrong.
Sean


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## bushidomartialarts

Touch Of Death said:


> You thought wrong.
> Sean



not so very far wrong.

kenpo techniques are pretty gruesome stuff.  and lots of the kenpo old-timers were pretty gruesome folks.

on the spectrum of 'buy them candy and flowers arts' on one side and 'killing arts' on the other, kenpo is pretty far towards the killing end.


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## Touch Of Death

bushidomartialarts said:


> not so very far wrong.
> 
> kenpo techniques are pretty gruesome stuff. and lots of the kenpo old-timers were pretty gruesome folks.
> 
> on the spectrum of 'buy them candy and flowers arts' on one side and 'killing arts' on the other, kenpo is pretty far towards the killing end.


While I agree Kenpo is not all rainbows and butterflies, you have to understand that to study kenpo is to better yourself. You improve your base, you improve your breathing, you improve your fitness, you improve your attitude, and you improve your logic. With these new found skills, you may Kill, protect, or improve others. Just because you can run people over with your car, doesn't make you the proud owner of a killer car. Its just a car. You own a car to improve your life.
Sean


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## Carol

This is a subject I can relate to very well.  I never trained in a Christ-centered Kenpo school, but I currently train in an art that is generally associated with Islam. 

Personally I have no issue with a school being Christ-centered (or any other faith for that matter).  For a serious student, martial arts are part of life, so is one's faith.  If the two coincide, they coincide.

Where I would take issue is in HOW the school will be run.

I do have an issue with the idea that only a particular faith should study Kenpo (or any other art).

I also disagree with the notion that (in the vein of the example) only Christians should study Kenpo, or that the true benefits of Kenpo can only be realized by Christians.

I would take particular issue if the school denigrated another martial artist for their faith, or perceived lack of it.

As said by others, I would take issue with the school being used as a schill for proseletyzation and conversions.

The aversion to killing also makes me very nervious.  I have heard from some folks, many who self-identify as Christians, state vehemntly that they will not kill.

I find the concept to be irresponsible and dishonest.

If you fight someone, you must accept the responsibility that you may kill them.  One's faith does not preclude one from that responsibility.

They may not drop dead at your feet, they may die hours, days, or even weeks later.  But a prolonged death sourced injuries you caused is still a death that lies upon your hands, morally and legally.   

If there is anyone that doesn't believe that people can die from allegedly non-lethal force then please visit these links:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="Victoria+Snelgrove"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=death+from+non-lethal+force

I am not suggesting that Christians shouldn't train, or shouldn't kill. 

I simply have a HUGE problem with the emotions of Christians being intentionally baited with by using innacurate phrases like such as "not killing" and "non-lethal".  In Kenpo we hit people and hurt people.  If you cannot accept what results from that, train elsewhere.


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## Touch Of Death

While shooting people may kill them, the reason for shooting them is to stop or disable them; so, even gun use is not about killing.
Sean


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## ArmorOfGod

Ray said:


> I happen to have a book written by a Japanese man, head of a Japanese style, that says Moses, Christ and Abraham visited Japan for instruction (as I recall, it says Moses learned how to use the staff and Jesus learned philosophy in Japan).


 

Jesus could have studied in Japan, as the cave where his body was placed for three days is in Japan now.

AoG


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## morph4me

Interesting thread. Personally I prefer to keep my training and my spirituality separate, but that's my choice. If someone wants to practice martial arts and religion together in a responsible manner, to each his own. That being said, I'm curious about how you would reconcile  the turn the other cheek philosophy with the potentially lethal techniques taught in the dojo?


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## exile

Touch Of Death said:


> While shooting people may kill them, the reason for shooting them is to stop or disable them; so, even gun use is not about killing.
> Sean



This kind of argument leads you to the following reductio: while pinpoint tactical bombing may kill people, the reason for tactically bombing them is to destroy the facilities they use to produce war materiel (or whatever), so even tactical bombing is not about killing. 

At this point, it looks as though the position you're taking is that X is only `about' killing if the deliberate intent of the action is specifically to kill, and if X merely is very likely to kill _as a side effect_ of its main objective, then X is not `about' killing. Fine. Then let's rephrase the point: someone who applies kenpo, or any other martial art, implicitly does so on the understanding that while their goal may not be to kill someone (but merely to immobilize them to prevent them from whatever dangerous activity they are trying to carry out), there is an excellent chance of permanent severe damage or death to that person from the maximally effective use of that MA. And it's true that a lot of people who'd rather not kill anyone nevertheless believe that if someone threatens you physically, you may well (depending on the circumstances) be justified in bringing _any_ level of force to bear on them that protects you or whoever else they may be threatening, even if the result of that force is to severely maim or kill the assailant. 

Unpleasant as it may be, it's a fact that the more effective your application of any MA is, the more efficient you are in inflicting a potentially lethal level of damage on an assailant. That's just a nasty truth about the MAs, and as long as your ideology, or religion, or creed, or whatever, is compatible with that truth, there's no problem. But let's not try to pretend that a competent and effective application of MA techniques doesn't have a good chance of damaging someone permanently and possibly fatally, depending on how hard a surface their head bounces against after you've brought their upper body down low with an armlock and then punched, kicked , or elbow-rammed them in the face.


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## Ray

Touch Of Death said:


> While shooting people may kill them, the reason for shooting them is to stop or disable them; so, even gun use is not about killing.


Cops that I've ever talked to have told me that if they ever have to fire a single round at some one, then they will empty the clip into the person they are firing at. In a nice pattern, in the chest. 

I hope that stops or disables the perp.


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## Kenpsy7

The kenpo school that I teach at is not a covert christian school. I clearly tell each perspective student that I am an unashamed blood washed christian and that the school is Christ centered. Furthermore, I tell each perspective student that we will begin each class with prayer in the name of Jesus Christ and then I preach a message straight out of the Holy Bible. Not one student or perspective student has ever been told anything else. I tell everyone up front that the school is a christian ministry with the goal of reaching the lost for Christ so that they can have forgiveness of their sins through faith in Christ's death (for their sins), burial, and ressurrection three days later, and that when a person believes this and sincerly calls out in repentance for The Lord Jesus Christ to forgive them and to save them, then he will eternally forgive and save them as God promises in the bible. 
   Another goal is to encourage and teach fellow christians through the preaching of Gods word, fellowship with likeminded christians in an environment cunducive to their spiritual growth. 
   Now to the Kenpo... I am a legitimate 2nd generation American Kenpo Black Belt in the Ed Parker kenpo Line. I teach the entire system of American Kenpo as Ed Parker taught it to my teacher, and he subsequently taught it to me for nearly 20 years now. I teach the 154 technique system of Kenpo (with other kenpo techniques not in the 154 taught as additional material). All Forms short1 through long 8, finger sets, blocking sets, kicking sets,stance sets, co-ordination sets, staff sets, two-man set ect..( as well as rebounding sets and tiger and dragon forms)..these last forms and sets are my teachers. We then end in Prayer.


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## Andrew Green

So here would be my worry, what qualifies you to work as a ministry?  Are you recognized and ordained by any major branch of Christianity?  I know nothing of you, or what you do so I won't suggest this applies to you, but, do you suppose that someone using a similar sales pitch could use Christianity through martial arts to teach there own "version" of it, and walk that slippery slop that could lead to near cult like behaviour?

As a martial arts school falls outside the normal boundaries of a religious institution, and the instructor is running what amounts to a personality driven business, using it as a ministry, with no training in acting as a minister and without the bounds of a church, this seems a dangerous thing.  

If I wanted to open a Roman Catholic church to spread the word and reach the lost, I imagine there would be some pretty tight requirements, a system of checks and balances, I would answer in some sense to others from the branch, have to recieve formal training, etc.  With a "Christian martial arts school" there is none of that, just me, my bible, my interpretation of it, and a bunch of people depending on me for spiritual guidance and "saving there soul"

Now I find the idea of someone in that position, without any training or checks and balances in place, a rather scary thought.


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## IWishToLearn

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> This logic makes me nervous, and is potentially dangerous. One of my more technically influential early instructors on my kenpo journey taught, specifically, for the purpose of creating a guerilla warfare unit to maintain a state of preparedness against the upcoming forces of the anti-christ. Our focus was on "killer kenpo", along with resistance-level low-tech weaponry, akin to survivalists cookbook stuff. We started and closed each class in prayer. Techniques were modified and grafted along the logic lines of defending surviving evangelists from SS-type forces predicted by absurd end-of-the-world christian authors.
> 
> Although a club can be whatever it wants, I like the idea of keeping philosophy, spirituality and religion OFF the mat. Too much room for the insanity of unbalanced minds once they've merged. I live a deeply examined, rich spiritual life, the crux of which I'd be glad to share with anyone who asks. Up to that point, however, kenpo is about concepts, theory, and mechanical application. Not church.
> 
> My own thoughts.
> 
> Dave


 
Preach on, brotha Dave.


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## Carol

*shrug*  It's one heckuva way to bunk out of paying taxes.

An ordination can be had as easily as "click here to download".  Then, a few hours with an attorney that specializes in non-profit orgs runs the paperwork to get one established as a religious organization....and...voila!  No tax for you!


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## Tenguru

Touch Of Death said:


> You thought wrong.
> Sean



Have you let the many benefits of your training blind you?  Look at the strikes, targets, and sequencing of kenpo/kempo.  When properly applied by a skilled practitioner, do you not think the results exceed simple "self defense"?  Perhaps my kenpo training was unusual.

Or maybe you thought wrong.

I also find it ironic that you practice kenpo and your handle is "Touch of death".  LOL


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## Flying Crane

Kenpsy7 said:


> The kenpo school that I teach at is not a covert christian school. I clearly tell each perspective student that I am an unashamed blood washed christian and that the school is Christ centered. Furthermore, I tell each perspective student that we will begin each class with prayer in the name of Jesus Christ and then I preach a message straight out of the Holy Bible. Not one student or perspective student has ever been told anything else. I tell everyone up front that the school is a christian ministry with the goal of reaching the lost for Christ so that they can have forgiveness of their sins through faith in Christ's death (for their sins), burial, and ressurrection three days later, and that when a person believes this and sincerly calls out in repentance for The Lord Jesus Christ to forgive them and to save them, then he will eternally forgive and save them as God promises in the bible.
> Another goal is to encourage and teach fellow christians through the preaching of Gods word, fellowship with likeminded christians in an environment cunducive to their spiritual growth.
> Now to the Kenpo... I am a legitimate 2nd generation American Kenpo Black Belt in the Ed Parker kenpo Line. I teach the entire system of American Kenpo as Ed Parker taught it to my teacher, and he subsequently taught it to me for nearly 20 years now. I teach the 154 technique system of Kenpo (with other kenpo techniques not in the 154 taught as additional material). All Forms short1 through long 8, finger sets, blocking sets, kicking sets,stance sets, co-ordination sets, staff sets, two-man set ect..( as well as rebounding sets and tiger and dragon forms)..these last forms and sets are my teachers. We then end in Prayer.


 

I don't see anything wrong with this, the key being that you are open and honest with all your students, so they enter your school knowing what to expect, and if they stay, that is apparently what they want.  I think honesty is the key, and it sounds like that is what you are giving them.


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## Touch Of Death

Tenguru said:


> Have you let the many benefits of your training blind you? Look at the strikes, targets, and sequencing of kenpo/kempo. When properly applied by a skilled practitioner, do you not think the results exceed simple "self defense"? Perhaps my kenpo training was unusual.
> 
> Or maybe you thought wrong.
> 
> I also find it ironic that you practice kenpo and your handle is "Touch of death". LOL


The goal of sequencing and targeting is to control with timimg factors: pain, fear, respect, or death. You have been sold a line. Secondly Touch of Death was a video game on the Simpsons. A game Bart felt was easier than Kenpo class; so, in a sense. Touch of Death is a testiment to how ridiculous the claim is that Kenpo is a Killing Art.
Sean


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## bushidomartialarts

gotta go with tenguru on this one.  perhaps they teach it differently up there in spokane (i'd blame all those wholesome religious touchy-feely types at gonzaga).  

touch of death, i agree that the ultimate goal of martial study has little to do with combative ability.  it's about personal evolution, self-expression, self-improvement and making the world a better place.

but of all the martial arts one can choose to take on the journey, kenpo is some brutal stuff.  think about striking serpent's head (crushed trachea, anyone?)...back breaker (pretty much just what it sounds like)...leap of death (where you kick him in the head after breaking his neck).

and if you've read or heard anything about the history of our beloved art...those guys were not in it for the flowers.  well, maybe lillies.  three words for ya, mate: professor william chow.

kudos to your instructor for taking some of the testosterone out of your kenpo experience -- it's a move in the right direction.  but let's not be slapping down folks until we're sure we know of what we speak.


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## Ray

Touch Of Death said:


> The goal of sequencing and targeting is to control with timimg factors: pain, fear, respect, or death. You have been sold a line. Secondly Touch of Death was a video game on the Simpsons. A game Bart felt was easier than Kenpo class; so, in a sense. Touch of Death is a testiment to how ridiculous the claim is that Kenpo is a Killing Art.


Question: If gloved boxers occaisionally and without intent strike and kill their opponents, if Mas Oyama could kill bulls with a heel palm, then can striking in kenpo kill someone?  (Personally, I haven't killed anyone but you never know when you might need/want to).


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## Touch Of Death

Ray said:


> Question: If gloved boxers occaisionally and without intent strike and kill their opponents, if Mas Oyama could kill bulls with a heel palm, then can striking in kenpo kill someone? (Personally, I haven't killed anyone but you never know when you might need/want to).


You can die by bumping into a counter top and having a blood clot go straight to your brain. Death is not the issue, its timing. I think Oyama would have had a different experience if they let two or three Bulls loose after him, but that's beside the point. What can result from Kenpo and what the art essentialy is, are two different things. Any fool can gouge an eye out, or crush a trachea but the art is not about specialized moves. They are simply tactics made more lethal by refined motion. Its like saying foot-ball is all about the occassional compound fracture.
Sean


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## bushidomartialarts

again, i have to respectfully disagree.

the history of our art is pretty clear:  many of the moves were designed to maim, disfigure and kill.

again, i admire your teacher for moving away from our -- interesting -- past.  but pick up some of the source material or read interviews with chow or mitose.  awareness of past orthodoxy is key to moving beyond them.


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## Tenguru

Touch Of Death said:


> You can die by bumping into a counter top and having a blood clot go straight to your brain. Death is not the issue, its timing. I think Oyama would have had a different experience if they let two or three Bulls loose after him, but that's beside the point. What can result from Kenpo and what the art essentialy is, are two different things. Any fool can gouge an eye out, or crush a trachea but the art is not about specialized moves. They are simply tactics made more lethal by refined motion. Its like saying foot-ball is all about the occassional compound fracture.
> Sean



I have the impression that you can't reconcile your personal belief system with the legacy of the art that you practice.

In no way am I suggesting that Kenpoka are killers.  I'm stating that kenpo is an art designed to inflict serious injury and possibly death.  It wasn't designed primarily as a feel-good, get-in-touch-with-your-inner-child hobby.


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## Tenguru

Touch Of Death said:


> ...
> What can result from Kenpo and what the art essentialy is, are two different things.
> ...
> Sean



Exactly.  There are many positive things that come out of training kenpo/kempo.  But do not try to sweep the essence of the art under the proverbial rug.


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## kosho

Not totally getting in to this here, BUT  for me the highest level of KEMPO/KENPO is no physical contact. the lowest is the war arts. and we all know the war arts of Kempo/Kenpo are truly devistating.
Thats it Im out.
 kosho


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## bushidomartialarts

a good point and good post, kosho.

the greatest warrior wins without fighting, or words to that effect.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

As a non-Christian, this is quite confusing to me...  There are many varieties of Kenpo and many varieties of Christianity.  Does the type of Kenpo you practice have to align with your branch of Christianity?

For instance, is EPAK a Protestant thing?   Is Tatum lineage Baptist and Planas Pentacostal?  Is Tracy's a Catholic Kenpo?  Is Nick Cerio's Kenpo Eastern Orthodox?  What if you aren't a Christian?  Would it no longer be Kenpo?   For instance, if you learned Kenpo at a Buddhist temple, that wouldn't be "true" Kenpo anymore, right?   What if you learned Kenpo from a Shaolin Monk, would it be Shaolin Kenpo?  If you combined Jiu Jitsu with Kenpo, would you have to join Jews  for Jesus?

Please discuss.


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## CoryKS

It could be as simple a thing as creating an environment where the instructors and students feel comfortable talking about such things, whether or not it applies to training.

The manager of one of our schools wrote an essay in our regional newsletter in which he drew heavily from his Christian upbringing.  Didn't bother me, but during subsequent classes the instructors at our school felt it necessary to announce that the writer's views were his own, did not necessarily reflect those of the organization, etc.  

If you specify up front that that is the environment you are trying to establish, the burden is on your potential customers to filter themselves out if they have a problem with it rather than make the school change its policies.  This will probably reduce your potential customer base, however.


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## Ray

Touch Of Death said:


> Any fool can gouge an eye out, or crush a trachea but the art is not about specialized moves. They are simply tactics made more lethal by refined motion.


By logical extension, any fool can knock out another by striking the head...In actual practice only a well trained fool can KO one of the top contenders in the ring. 

Any fool can gouge an eye out if a bigger fool lets him?


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## Touch Of Death

bushidomartialarts said:


> again, i have to respectfully disagree.
> 
> the history of our art is pretty clear: many of the moves were designed to maim, disfigure and kill.
> 
> again, i admire your teacher for moving away from our -- interesting -- past. but pick up some of the source material or read interviews with chow or mitose. awareness of past orthodoxy is key to moving beyond them.


 I won't step on the sales tactics of Mitose and Chow other than to call their description of the art a sales tactic. Even moves meant to disfigure are a means of controlling that person as a lesson to him, her, or others. Control is the big principle; death and disfigurment are sub catagories of control. The history of the art is also about control. The methods of control are not what the art is about. The word Kenpo means Fist Law not Fist methods.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death

Ray said:


> By logical extension, any fool can knock out another by striking the head...In actual practice only a well trained fool can KO one of the top contenders in the ring.
> 
> Any fool can gouge an eye out if a bigger fool lets him?


That well trained fool must have a lot of control.:ultracool


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## Touch Of Death

Tenguru said:


> Exactly. There are many positive things that come out of training kenpo/kempo. But do not try to sweep the essence of the art under the proverbial rug.


Death is not the essence of anything.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death

Tenguru said:


> I have the impression that you can't reconcile your personal belief system with the legacy of the art that you practice.
> 
> In no way am I suggesting that Kenpoka are killers. I'm stating that kenpo is an art designed to inflict serious injury and possibly death. It wasn't designed primarily as a feel-good, get-in-touch-with-your-inner-child hobby.


When did I say it was anything other than being about control? 
Sean


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## Kenpsy7

In reply to several of your posts. First, the kenpo school is a ministry of a local Independent Baptist church, and is taught under the direction of the church as a ministry. Second, I do not charge any monies for classes. The only requirements are hard work, dedication, respect, patience ect. For belt promotions I do charge $5.00 for the cost of the belt and printing of the colored certificate and I pay sales tax on all material, so there is no tax shelter. I freely offer my time and help to any student willing to learn. A student does not have to be a professing christian to attend classes, earn belt promotions ect. Again, I tell all persons before they attend the class that it is a christian ministry and all that that entails as described in my previous post.
   I still have not heard from any christian kenpo school teachers on this site. Perhaps it is like asking a group of vegitarians where their butcher shop is... This may not be a forum that christians feel comfortable expressing themselves in..I don't know. Please don't take my last comments as insulting or cutting...they were not ment to be in any way.


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## Brian Jones

Actually there are several teachers who frequent this site who do exaclty what you are tlakign about. At the very least they make a point of professing thier faith.  They may simply not have had a chance to read this thread. I teach at a school and do the same.  And I have never had any problems.  Mainly because I do what you do. Simply be very up front about the schools focus and ministry. 

Brian Jones


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## donald

Touch Of Death said:


> I think Oyama would have had a different experience if they let two or three Bulls loose after him, but that's beside the point.
> 
> Are you saying one was'nt enough? I don't remember hearing about Mr.Oyama slaying any bulls, but I do recall the reports of his shuto chopping horns off!!!  I don't think those demos really reflected anything, but Mr.Oyama's machismo... Although it probably did wonders for his membership rolls.
> 
> 1stJohn1:9


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## ArmorOfGod

Kenpsy7 said:


> I still have not heard from any christian kenpo school teachers on this site. Perhaps it is like asking a group of vegitarians where their butcher shop is... This may not be a forum that christians feel comfortable expressing themselves in..I don't know. Please don't take my last comments as insulting or cutting...they were not ment to be in any way.


 
Mine is a Christian school.

AoG


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## Seabrook

I am a Christian, but I teach people of all faith backgrounds. My students are there to WORK HARD and learn how to defend themselves so that is my focus for my school.


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## distalero

Old Fat Kenpoka said:


> As a non-Christian, this is quite confusing to me...  There are many varieties of Kenpo and many varieties of Christianity.  Does the type of Kenpo you practice have to align with your branch of Christianity?
> 
> For instance, is EPAK a Protestant thing?   Is Tatum lineage Baptist and Planas Pentacostal?  Is Tracy's a Catholic Kenpo?  Is Nick Cerio's Kenpo Eastern Orthodox?  What if you aren't a Christian?  Would it no longer be Kenpo?   For instance, if you learned Kenpo at a Buddhist temple, that wouldn't be "true" Kenpo anymore, right?   What if you learned Kenpo from a Shaolin Monk, would it be Shaolin Kenpo?  If you combined Jiu Jitsu with Kenpo, would you have to join Jews  for Jesus?
> 
> Please discuss.




The whole issue is an ignorance thing, with it's traditional odor and all the usual buzzing flies. However, you can make a case for the following: we all took Kenpo out of fear of physical attack; some of us gravitate to other viewpoints out of the knowledge that we will soon cease to exist. Some of these folks feel compelled to align these two (and every other practice in life) resulting in one or the other stance being adulterated. Interesting thing is, this ignorance began soon after any wisdom found in any teaching, and long, long before anybody here was a twinkle in some equally clouded eye. It's all ignorance, from Zen being a "philosophy" to Jesus being entombed in Japan. (And here I thought that was Batman)


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## Monadnock

A martial art school should be that first and formost, otherwise it isn't. The religious underpinnings are up to the owner. Many Japanese dojo have a kamidana as there is a Shinto following in Japan and the term dojo has a little more depth than the American "studio." It is not there to convert people to Shinto, it is a symbol of past teachers and a focal point for the dojo, to say the least.

Nobody's asking if you go to a Shinto Karate School, or a Shinto Jo School. It's already engrained. It's a given there will be some sort of undertones of Shinto in the class, if it is claiming to be some sort of traditional Japanese dojo. In America, most of us know who Jesus is and some actually try to follow His teachings. I find it hard to understand the shock and awe of having to come to terms with a Christian martial arts school in America. If you don't like it - if Chrisitanity offends you, then don't train there.

Most people looking for a studio just want to learn how to hang onto their purse or eye gouge someone with their keys. They seek their spirituality elsewhere, and all the power to them.


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## hongkongfooey

Touch Of Death said:


> While I agree Kenpo is not all rainbows and butterflies, you have to understand that to study kenpo is to better yourself. You improve your base, you improve your breathing, you improve your fitness, you improve your attitude, and you improve your logic. With these new found skills, you may Kill, protect, or improve others. Just because you can run people over with your car, doesn't make you the proud owner of a killer car. Its just a car. You own a car to improve your life.
> Sean


 

Maybe your Kenpo is for self improvement, but mine is too help me through an attack if need be.


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## hongkongfooey

ArmorOfGod said:


> Jesus could have studied in Japan, as the cave where his body was placed for three days is in Japan now.
> 
> AoG


 

HUH? How so?


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## mrhnau

hongkongfooey said:


> HUH? How so?



I was wondering that myself. I thought the discipled lacked teleport technology (well, under normal circumstances LOL).


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## hongkongfooey

Must have been Scotty! Beam me up!


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## ArmorOfGod

hongkongfooey said:


> Must have been Scotty! Beam me up!


 
Are you finished mocking my religion?  I have to admit that I am incredibly disapointed in you.  I thought this was a community of tolerance, not bigotry.

Now, back to the subject.  I had an old article that debated the location of the cave of the resurrection.  It pointed to India, Jerusalem, and a small spot in Japan.  It turns out, it is in Jerusalem, according to this article here:  http://www.mustardseed.net/html/pjrugrdd.html and a few other articles I found just now.
I was wrong in the other post I did, but I don't mock other people.

AoG


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## hongkongfooey

At sign your name when you leave a red chicklet. If you were disappointed by that little remark, you would be frothing at my remarks I made on the Jesus Camp thread a few moths back. Besides, the remark wasn't making fun of Christianity, it was making fun of the notion that the tomb of Jesus was in Japan. Don't take things so seriously. Especially thing said on a message board.


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## MJS

_ATTENTION ALL USERS:

_Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Mike Slosek
-MT Super Moderator-


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## Touch Of Death

hongkongfooey said:


> Maybe your Kenpo is for self improvement, but mine is too help me through an attack if need be.


So, you aren't looking to control the confrontation? How do you intend to be "helped" by your art?... (respectfully)
Sean


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## bushidomartialarts

Touch Of Death said:


> Death is not the essence of anything.
> Sean



according to the hagakure, book of five rings and bubishi (for a start), a warrior lives with the thought of death at all times.  this is not a morbid thing, but simply a reminder to live absolutely in the moment, always fulfill your responsibilities and to treat people with respect every time you interact with them.  (for example, if you storm out of a tiff with your spouse, the thought that you may die before coming home will turn your butt around to go apologize toot sweet).

one could say that death is the essence of the warrior spirit.  for many hear, that means death is the essence of everything.


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## Touch Of Death

bushidomartialarts said:


> according to the hagakure, book of five rings and bubishi (for a start), a warrior lives with the thought of death at all times. this is not a morbid thing, but simply a reminder to live absolutely in the moment, always fulfill your responsibilities and to treat people with respect every time you interact with them. (for example, if you storm out of a tiff with your spouse, the thought that you may die before coming home will turn your butt around to go apologize toot sweet).
> 
> one could say that death is the essence of the warrior spirit. for many hear, that means death is the essence of everything.


To establish control over your natural fear of death would be the purpose of the Bushido code; you imagine the day of your death, and say things like, "This is a good day to die" to establish further domination of that fear. By mastering that fear and praying for that day, you become a more effective tool to your warlord, master, wife, or self. The idea is not to simply extinguish yourself, but to be as effective as possible. The best way to establish dominance and control is to use effective tools. Life wins!:angel: 
Sean

P.S. If you die when leaving home in a tiff, your wife and children now have less control over their destiny.


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## bushidomartialarts

that's certainly a way to look at it, ya hippie. :angel:

god i'm glad a sense of humor is seeping back into this thread.


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## youngbraveheart

Kenpsy7 said:


> As a christian Kenpo teacher, I am curious. Is your Kenpo school a Christ centered school? Where is it located? Mine is in Puyallup,Washington.


 
"_Whoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father, which is in heaven.  But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father, which is in heaven_."
Matthew 10:32,33

Good for you Kenpsy7!


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## Touch Of Death

bushidomartialarts said:


> that's certainly a way to look at it, ya hippie. :angel:
> 
> god i'm glad a sense of humor is seeping back into this thread.


When ever I teach chess, I explain that the knights are your Samurai and every time one backs down from a fight, it must now go home and kill itself because none of the other peices will ever have anything to do with it. 
Sean


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## bushidomartialarts

well done, touch


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## Rich_Hale

I find it interesting that anyone could be so bold as to say what "THE" purpose of Kenpo is or is not. The same thing goes for the purpose of a gun, knife, club or a rock.

In themselves these weapons have no singular purpose - unto themselves. 

It is you and I who give weapons (natural or man-made) their purpose.

To say the purpose of Kenpo, or a gun, is not to kill but to control, is like a catcher telling a pitcher that a baseball's purpose is not to be thrown, but to be caught.

If someone were to attempt me harm, I would defend myself as best I can.

If someone were to attempt my family harm, I would possibly hunt them down with the intent of killing them (maybe) with my 44 magnum, that I have used (to date) exclusively on tin cans and paper targets, then I would (likely) chop their head off with my machete, and mount it on a stake - the same machete that (to date) I have used only to trim bushes.

But surely if the guns purpose is only to control my opponent, and not kill him, it will not fire when I aim for the heart, nor will my machete be capable of cutting off a human head, as its purpose is only to cut vegetation.

One day, a potential student walked into my school and said she wanted to learn karate, but not the offensive kind. She only wanted to learn how to defend herself, so she had no need for offensive tactics.

I told her I could do this, but first I wanted her to go to a local gun shop and ask to purchase a defensive hand gun, as she didn't want to rob, or murder anyone, so all she needed was a gun that would work during defensive and not offensive situations.

She looked at me like I was crazy. Then I said, honestly; all I can do is teach you Kenpo and if you only use it to defend yourself, that's okay, but if you change your mind, go home and beat up your husband, well . . .

As for addressing the original question, yes, I am a Christian, and no I don't have a Christ centered school, nor do I think I'm smart enough to figure out how to manage the conflicting questions involved in turning the other cheek, just to have my opponent hit me on the other cheek . . . unless maybe I was to claim I did it in order to fulfill the requirements of category completion . . .


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## Touch Of Death

Rich_Hale said:


> I find it interesting that anyone could be so bold as to say what "THE" purpose of Kenpo is or is not. The same thing goes for the purpose of a gun, knife, club or a rock.
> 
> In themselves these weapons have no singular purpose - unto themselves.
> 
> It is you and I who give weapons (natural or man-made) their purpose.
> 
> To say the purpose of Kenpo, or a gun, is not to kill but to control, is like a catcher telling a pitcher that a baseball's purpose is not to be thrown, but to be caught.
> 
> If someone were to attempt me harm, I would defend myself as best I can.
> 
> If someone were to attempt my family harm, I would possibly hunt them down with the intent of killing them (maybe) with my 44 magnum, that I have used (to date) exclusively on tin cans and paper targets, then I would (likely) chop their head off with my machete, and mount it on a stake - the same machete that (to date) I have used only to trim bushes.
> 
> But surely if the guns purpose is only to control my opponent, and not kill him, it will not fire when I aim for the heart, nor will my machete be capable of cutting off a human head, as its purpose is only to cut vegetation.
> 
> One day, a potential student walked into my school and said she wanted to learn karate, but not the offensive kind. She only wanted to learn how to defend herself, so she had no need for offensive tactics.
> 
> I told her I could do this, but first I wanted her to go to a local gun shop and ask to purchase a defensive hand gun, as she didn't want to rob, or murder anyone, so all she needed was a gun that would work during defensive and not offensive situations.
> 
> She looked at me like I was crazy. Then I said, honestly; all I can do is teach you Kenpo and if you only use it to defend yourself, that's okay, but if you change your mind, go home and beat up your husband, well . . .
> 
> As for addressing the original question, yes, I am a Christian, and no I don't have a Christ centered school, nor do I think I'm smart enough to figure out how to manage the conflicting questions involved in turning the other cheek, just to have my opponent hit me on the other cheek . . . unless maybe I was to claim I did it in order to fulfill the requirements of category completion . . .


The best defense is a good offense; I always say. I really have no problem with you thinking the art is about death. God knows I've driven to Kenpo Blasting Danzig's "Bringer Of Death" more than a few times; however, going on the offensive is primarily defensive in nature. We can argue all day but the bottom line is that Kenpo is a defensive art. If you teach timing concepts, they too are defensive or why use them. 
Sean


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## Kenpsy7

Please allow me to explain from a biblical viewpoint how I as a christian Kenpo teacher deal with the turn the other cheek issue. First, there is no biblical example of any christian fighting back when being persecuted soley for their christian faith. We have the Lord Jesus Christ as our primary example. He was falsely accused, illeagally tried and convicted (at night which was against Jewish law). He was then beaten (with a cat of 9 tail whip, and human fists and palms), his beard was ripped out (scourged), a crown of thorns was forcibly thrust through his head, he was stripped naked in public,spat upon and mocked, and finally nailed naked to a rugged cross through his hands and feet, yet he never once resisted (verbally or physically). The apostle John was boiled in oil (but he was not killed), Paul was stoned beaten and eventually martyered (Killed) as were the other apostles. Stephen did not fight back when persecuted soley for his faith, but rather, willingly gave his life for the testimony of Jesus Christ. However, if I were to be driving home and witness a woman being assaulted by a group of men, I would be olligated to intercede on the womans behalf. If it is within my power to defend some weaker person and did not do it, then I would be as guilty as the person or persons that were commiting the crime itself by not stopping it when I may have, and allowing it to continue. If someone breaks into my home and attempts to harm my family, then I have the God given responsibility to defend those that God has placed in my care. If I were a police officer and I was called to defend myself or another person then it would be my responsibility to act in such a manner. If I were a soldier and my government legitimately sent me to war, then according to the bible I would go to war and fight. Ecclesiastes states the "there is a time for war and a time for peace". The only time that there is no clear biblical example of a christian defending themselves or others is in a clear case of christian persecution, in which we have the biblical example of laying down our life for the testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ. He Gave his life for the salvation of others, and did not resist even though it was certainly within his power to do so. I could cite many, many other examples but I hope that the few I have given will suffice. I hope this helps to clear up this seeming contradiction, which truly is no contradiction at all.


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## Touch Of Death

Kenpsy7 said:


> ...this seeming contradiction, which truly is no contradiction at all.


I fail to see the contradiction as well.
Sean


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## tellner

Like Carol I practice an art that has strong Muslim roots. It's taught by a devout Christian. My guru is always willing to share his faith with those who are interested, but he keeps it out of class. About the closest he ever comes is "Silat is to fight evil, not do evil" and a refusal to do any of the animist or spirit possession stuff that is traditional among some aliran. He's had Protestants, Mormons, pagans, Jews, Muslims, atheists, Catholics, Buddhists and one closeted Satanist come through the doors and has treated them all fairly, not trying to use his authority as a teacher to prostelytize. A "Christ-centered" school is no different I suppose.

I'm also involved with a Muslim aliran connected with a Sufi Tariqa (although several members of the steering committee aren't Muslims. One is an atheist.) Prayer, spiritual exercises and Sufi training methods are an explicit and integral part of the system. But everyone who steps through the door knows this. People who aren't members of the Tariqa are welcome, and teachers are explicitly forbidden to use their authority to convert people. As the Quran says "There is no compulsion in religion." It's still a tricky thing that requires a lot of maturity and honesty to pull off.

That's one of the real dangers. Your students aren't just people in the same room. By becoming your students they are ceding you a certain amount of power over them. They have agreed to take a lot of what you tell them on faith and submit to your authority. That's why "purer than Caesar's wife" is the only standard which can apply when it comes to sexuality, prostelytization, personal aggrandizement, politics or other important personal matters. If you use your position of power to change their religion, bolster your own ego at the expense of theirs, get access to their money, have sexual relations with them or any of a number of other things you have violated important boundaries. Your fitness as a teacher is in question _*at best*_. The relationship is not one between equals even if all are equal before Christ. It's a relationship involving a substantial power differential that is easy to abuse.


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