# Jujutsu



## arnisador (Feb 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Sub-Styles:
> *



I have heard it said that there is only one style of jujitsu; I cannot agree with this. Still it's much more common in my experience to see jujitsuka not mentioning their substyle than karateka, that is, karateka are more likely to say "I practice _Shotokan_ karate" than jujitsuka are to say "I practice _Danzan-ryu_ jujitsu" and furthermore it seems that the more recent the creation of the jujitsu style, the more likely that it's name will be emphasized. Similarly for books--jujitsu books seem to be labeled simply Jujitsu (or Jujutsu or what have you) and karate books are more likely to emphasize the style though certainly not always.

Stylistic differences just don't seem to be as strongly emphasized in jujitsu, it seems to me, with some exceptions of course.


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## Jay Bell (Feb 1, 2002)

hrm...I'd have to disagree with that honestly.  I've seen more the opposite.

For instance..."What style do you study?"

"Takagi Yoshin ryu"

*blank stare*

"It's a Jujutsu school"

"Oooh...Like Judo?"

"No"

Very few Jujutsuka refer to their art as Jujutsu....they tend to refer by name of the Ryuha.  Danzen ryu and the more "American" schools tend to stick with "Jujutsu" in my experiances.

What part of the country are you from, arnisador?  Maybe that has some to do with it..

Honestly...if I told people that I studied Jujutsu, that would be telling them nothing.  (haha...like Takagi Yoshin ryu would be any more clear?)


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## arnisador (Feb 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *Very few Jujutsuka refer to their art as Jujutsu*



My experience has been different, growing up on the east coast. I also think if one looks at martial arts books here in the States that the jujitsu ones are more likely to say Jujitsu (no style) on the cover than the karate books (which may also do that). I started thinking about it while at a martial arts store Thursday night looking at a board of seminar flyers and seeing each list its styles save the jujitsu seminar (by George Kirby).

But I do disagree with the notion that it's all "just jujitsu".



> *
> Honestly...if I told people that I studied Jujutsu, that would be telling them nothing.  *



I agree! Well, this has just beem ny experience.


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## arnisador (Feb 3, 2002)

This person has *9* black belts:
Rokudan (6th Degree Black Belt), Heiwashin Ryu Jujutsu
Rokudan (6th Degree Black Belt), Shihan Ryu Ju-Jitsu
Rokudan (6th Degree Black Belt), US Ju-Jitsu, USJJF/JJIF
Godan (5th Degree Black Belt), Seki-Ryu Ju-Jitsu
Godan (5th Degree Black Belt), Shihan Ryu Karatedo
Sandan (3rd Degree Black Belt), Shorin Ryu Karatedo
Samdan (3rd Degree Black Belt, Yudo
Sandan (3rd Degree Black Belt), Judo
Nidan (2nd Degree Black Belt),  Minami Ryu Jujutsu

I realize that some of these arts are rather similar _but_ I still think that 9 arts is a bit much.


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## Jay Bell (Feb 3, 2002)

*chuckle* Yep


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## Robert Carver (Feb 5, 2002)

Since I am the subject of arnisador's "too belts too many" post, and the author of the article in Grapping magazine, I would like to address these issues and a few others from around the board.

Too many black belts? Yeah, I agree, but after over 30 years doing this stuff (with almost 15 in the Marine Corps) and studying with multiple Sensei, it happens. You are right that most arts listed are similar, and that may be the point you should consider. I have been blessed with several influential and excellent Sensei over the years. As their deshi, if they feel that recognition of previous experience is proper and wish to award me rank based on my training with them and that previous experience, then that is their perogative. Because of my _respect_ for them, I don't tell them to shove their certificate where the sun does not shine, but instead, I bow and say "thank you". As a deshi, it is my obligation to respect their judgement. To do otherwise would be insulting. Likewise, the listing of those rankings on my official bio is also an obligation. By not listing them, I would risk possibly insulting them, or at least giving the impression that I do not find worth in the training they have given me. Like it or not, politics is all part of the deal. At least I have integrity to place my biography on record for all to examine and I use my real name on these message boards. I did notice arnisador that you do neither in your profile. Oh, and as a matter of record, I teach at a YMCA here in Baton Rouge. The students pay the Y, I do not accept "fees" for testing, I am not paid by the Y, and I do not and never have accepted money for teaching martial arts. So if you are thinking that the listing of the various rank is "just marketing", no it is a matter of obligation to and respect for my Sensei. So deal with it.

With regard to the article in Grappling magazine. I personally agree with Yari that Jujutsu is NOT a sport. However, as the VP for the USJJF, it is my obligation (the obligation word keeps popping up!) to support the policies and agenda of my organization. I am however NOT obligated to teach "competition" Jujutsu to my students. For me, Jujutsu is NOT about sport, it is about a "life and death" art. If others however want to compete, then more power to them. The USJJF has many members that do not compete, but are more interested in Jujutsu as an art. Part of the service of the organization is to provide an outlet for Jujutsu practitioners no matter their preference. Not to mention, by offering the competitive aspect, it gets members in the door and is a great way to expose them to the "other" side of the art.

As far as the spelling of Jujutsu vs Jujitsu, I personally prefer the Jujutsu spelling. It IS the more correct Romanization of the kanji. However, the spelling Jujitsu was one of the early Romanizations of the Kanji when the art was first introduced in Europe, and is STILL the more dominate spelling used in Europe. The Ju-Jitsu International Federation (JJIF) evolved from several European organizations that all used the "jitsu" spelling. When the JJIF was formed, they continued to use that spelling. The USJJF, in order standardize the spelling and conform to spelling used by our International organization chose to use the "jitsu" spelling. Since it was a little before my time with the USJJF, I did not have a lot of input into the matter.

Another matter brought up in this thread is the use of the term Jujutsu in describing your art, vice defining the Ryu or Ryuha. The statement "Honestly...if I told people that I studied Jujutsu, that would be telling them nothing" is total hogwash.

Let's take this same standard and apply it to other arts, such as karatedo, kempo/kenpo, kung fu, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Ninpo, Arnis, Escrima, etc, etc. Each of these are baseline arts and are defined by certain characteristics and all have separate ryu, ryuha, kwon, systems, styles etc. For instance, karatedo is defined as a "kick and punch" art, Arnis is defined by its use of sticks (which represent knives and short sword like the bolo), etc. Jujutsu is no different. Jujutsu is not defined by its techniques, or even that it is a "self-defense" art. Rather it is defined by principles such as "ju no ri", or the principle of suppleness (flexibility or "gentleness" if you prefer). If you visit, http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=224 you will note that we discussed some of these characteristics that define what Jujutsu is. So while many Ryu/Ryuha may have a particular emphasis on one type of technique over the other and indeed are more specific in that regard, the term Jujutsu itself is defining of an art that uses certain principles. If those principles are not present, then it is not jujutsu.

Last, I noted in another thread, "November 2001 Martial Talk Access Stats" that Arnisador had the silliness to state, "Most of these boards are much more narrowly focused--many even more so than E-Budo--and perhaps these posters are on these specialized boards. I can't think of another webboard that covers, or at least attempts to cover, such a wide variety of arts". You really do not get around much huh? For your information, *BudoSeek!*  has been around since 1997, a full year even before E-Budo (which John Lindsey has been kind enough to acknowledge). Since it's beginning, BudoSeek! has covered a wide variety of arts and it's basic structure has remained unchanged since that time. I recently noted that after Kaith joined BudoSeek! as a member, he totally restructured and reorganized MartialTalk with new categories and forums. Now it bears a remarkable likeness to BudoSeek! So if imitation is the highest form of flattery, then based on the recent changes here at MartialTalk, I am very flattered.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 5, 2002)

Mr Carver, well said. 
If you read through enough posts in this forum i think you will find not only some  wounderful and informative posts but Also some very caustic unflattering and downright rude childish comments.Some have been made in fun and i belive we can all accept that,others seem to be made out of ignorence or because someone thinks he/she is being funny when they rea;yknow nothing of the subject at hand and just want to sound important  
We are all have  our own opion but lets state it as such not as fact if we do not know.
This is a great forum and I have learned much from it  but lets state facts and not make fun of what we do not know.
Then again maybe some have never been taught to respect others
aka Shadow
Sheldon Bedell


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## Robert Carver (Feb 5, 2002)

Thank you Sheldon for your comments. 

You are right, many folks out on the internet and in our martial arts community still have a LOT to learn. Maybe with moderating influences like you and many on this site, that will change. I agree with your comments about this site (and others) that there are some terrific folks here and it is an excellent source of education. Much thanks goes to Kaith for emphasizing a positive atmosphere where folks can really have a "friendly" discussion on the martial arts. 

I noted in your profile that you are a practitioner of the Filippino arts. I spent almost 4 years (early 80's) in the Phillippines (in fact my two kids, ages 18 and 17, are half Filippino. Great kids!) and it was one of the best experiences of my life. The Filippino people are some of the kindest, most genteel people on the Earth, and I dearly miss the place. One of the things I discovered about the Philippines is that they are also blessed with some of the finest martial artists in the world. Something they do not get enough credit for. I was fortunate to have found an outstanding Karatedo Sensei there and really got an education as to what real karatedo was like (loads of bruises  ). One of my best friends was an Aikido instructor and we used to "cross-train" with him teaching me Aikido and me showing him the jujutsu variation on the techniques. Considering the lack of tatami, it was an interesting and often painful experience! I also had the chance to train in a little Arnis, and would love to do more of it sometime.

Good luck in your training and thanks again for your comments.


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## arnisador (Feb 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Robert Carver _
> *Since I am the subject of arnisador's "too belts too many" post, and the author of the article in Grapping magazine, I would like to address these issues and a few others from around the board.*



Mr. Carver: Thanks for coming here and stating your position. I understand your position on accepting the belts.

Your history of the jitsu/jutsu issue was informative.



> *
> Last, I noted in another thread, "November 2001 Martial Talk Access Stats" that Arnisador had the silliness to state, "Most of these boards are much more narrowly focused--many even more so than E-Budo--and perhaps these posters are on these specialized boards. I can't think of another webboard that covers, or at least attempts to cover, such a wide variety of arts". You really do not get around much huh? For your information, BudoSeek!  has been around since 1997, a full year even before E-Budo (which John Lindsey has been kind enough to acknowledge). Since it's beginning, BudoSeek! has covered a wide variety of arts*



I had only ever used the directory features there which I had used to find web sites. I was unfamiliar with the BudoSeek! fora and was not attempting to be silly. I see now that you have fora that are similar in software platform and coverage to, but obviously predate, those here at MartialTalk. I stand by my statement that most martial arts web boards have a narrow focus but BudoSeek! is clearly not one of those. Good luck!


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## Jay Bell (Feb 6, 2002)

> The statement "Honestly...if I told people that I studied Jujutsu, that would be telling them nothing" is total hogwash.



And how many Jujutsu schools are around, Robert?  Hence...it would not be hogwash.  Each school has different methods and approaches.  Jujutsu means as much as saying one studies Karate.


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## Robert Carver (Feb 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *
> 
> And how many Jujutsu schools are around, Robert?  Hence...it would not be hogwash.  Each school has different methods and approaches.  Jujutsu means as much as saying one studies Karate. *



Jay, I will take each sentence in turn.

First: LOTS.

Second: yes it is hogwash (my opinion)

Third: I agree, that is why you have individual ryu, ryuha, schools, systems, styles, kwons, etc within each art.

Fourth: I think I already said that. It does tell them as MUCH as saying one is studying karatedo, or Ninpo, or Hapkido, etc. It certainly doe not say "nothing". All arts have certain characteristics that distinguish them from others. It is the individual ryu, ryuha, schools, systems, styles, kwons, etc that define the "different methods and approaches".

Definition of Ju-jutsu from the _Tuttle Dictionary of the Martial Arts of Korea, China and Japan_.

*ju-jutsu* (J) [Style] (_lit_ Flexible Way, Way of Flexibility) Techniques for close combat, including throwing, pinning, joint-locking, striking and kicking, and choking and strangling, which were used by the _bushi_. The roots of this art have been traced to before the eleventh century. Today, many different branches and styles exist, as well as modern derivatives such as aikido and judo.

Hmm... that would seem to be an aweful lot for "nothing". Would you also like for me to provide the definitions of Karate, Tae Kwon Do, etc? I think you would find them equally filled with "nothing". I could also add some definitions of the individual ryu/ryuha, etc that are listed too.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 6, 2002)

Just want to interject a few minor points:

*real names* Unlike many other forums, we do not require members post with their real names.  Mines on the record (Bob Hubbard), as are several others, and there is a field in the profiles to add it, but its optional.




> I recently noted that after Kaith joined BudoSeek! as a member, he totally restructured and reorganized MartialTalk with new categories and forums. Now it bears a remarkable likeness to BudoSeek! So if imitation is the highest form of flattery, then based on the recent changes here at MartialTalk, I am very flattered.



I found BudoSeek many months after we opened Martial Talk.  I've checked out the other martial arts forums and in most cases, found them quite lacking.  This is not a dig at the operators, more so the software/organization.  Other forums such as E-Budo (where I'm a member also), Swordforums, etc are more focused on certain arts, vs a general audience.  My goal with Martial Talk is to reach as broad an audience as we can.  In that, when I see something that looks good, I'll borrow the idea, and see how it fits in here.  I also take a lot of feedback from our members, and tweak it as we go.  Plus, I'm still learning the vB softwares features, so we're constantly evolving.  

Regarding BudoSeek - Wonderful site, I highly recomend our members check them out.  There is a wealth of information there, especially in their directories that is invaluable.  There are similarities, but diferences in focus, structure, etc. We both have our own identities, etc.  Well, other than the fact that both guys running the sites are named "Robert" and that has had at least 1 confusing moment on the email front.  (Hint - I'm the balding guy with the goatee)  

:asian:

PS - just as an aside, you'll all notice the "Vote for this site" button at the bottom of the page...you click on it, and we get a vote.   Go vote for us.    (Note - you only get 1 vote, additional clicks are not counted, so don't spam the bloody thing.)


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## Jay Bell (Feb 6, 2002)

> Hmm... that would seem to be an aweful lot for "nothing".



And still not tell anything about the styles themselves.   Chokes, throws, joint locks and striking are methods in the majority of martial arts.  The thing that seperates "jujutsu" schools are the specifics of the ryu.

Yes, Robert.  You were first.  That seems like a rather important point for you to repeatedly make?


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## Cthulhu (Feb 6, 2002)

I think since the mid-nineties, when you tell someone you're taking jujutsu, they will assume you mean Brazilian 'jiu-jitsu', and probably ask some inane question about the UFC or something.

If I were a jujutsu practitioner, I know I would specify what specific system I was studying, if only to distinguish it from Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

Cthulhu


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## Kyle (Feb 6, 2002)

Or you could just start taking Brazilian Jiu-jitsu and avoid such an awkward situation.   

    - Kyle


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## Robert Carver (Feb 6, 2002)

Kaith, thank you for the kind words concerning BudoSeek! I am very proud of what I have accomplished with BudoSeek!, but I was not meaning to detract from the accomplishment that you have here with MartialTalk. What I said in the second post is absolutely true and you are definately to be commended for creating an environment where people are comfortable to discuss relavent topics no matter their differences in opinion. MartialTalk (like BudoSeek!) is unique in this regard since many of the bulleting boards are not only not diverse in their topics, but also seem to condone inappropriate behavior. So my congrats for a job well done. It must be something about us Roberts that make good things happen, regardless of whether a goatee is present or not. 

Jay, second point you made first. I have brought up the "firstness" of BudoSeek! two times that I am aware of. Once here, and once at E-Budo. As I mentioned above, I am understandably proud of BudoSeek! as I have dumped a lot of time, effort and my money into it. I have received nothing in return except for the knowledge that I have a good site and the acknowledgement of that by others. If I get defensive about BudoSeek!, then that is my shortfall, but I am sure there are things in your life that you are proud of and would equally defend. Since you did not bring up this point in your first reply however, I can only assume that by mentioning it, it was intended as a "dig". Normally when someone is losing an argument, the tactic of personal attack is a good diversion. So that brings me to the first point...

Apparently you are having difficulties dealing with the differences in an "ART" vs a "SCHOOL". I may not be able to persaude you from your minority view on this subject, but luckly the majority are not so tight that they cannot allow for a little flexibility of thought, but here goes...

The ART, be it Jujutsu or Karatedo is a GENERAL classification, that denotes GENERAL characteristics about an ART. For instance, we can say that in a general sense, an art by it's general term (karatedo, Jujutsu, etc) is concerned with kicking, punching, joint locking, or whatever. A SCHOOL (system, ryu/ryuha, kwon, etc) deals with SPECIFIC characteristics of the GENERAL classification to include technical variations, structure, etc. 

Remember, ART deals with GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS and SCHOOL, RYU/RYU, etc, deal in SPECIFICS.

Let me give you an example. When I set up BudoSeek! forums and Kaith here at MartialTalk, we had to think in terms of an easy to navigate structure. Therefore, we used general terms to denote each art. Following your line of thought, since Jujutsu, Karatedo, etc means nothing, then we should have set up a specific forum for each system of Karatedo, Jujutsu, Aikido, Hapkido, TKD, etc, etc. Now, can you imagine how LONG and difficult to navigate just the forum home page if it were set up that way. If you had a question about a certain throw, then you would have to decide which of the hundreds of Jujutsu forums in which to post that question and hope that someone actually sees it. However, by using the general term, Jujutsu (since throwing is a general but not necessarily unique characteristic of Jujutsu) you have one place to make a post that is related to Jujutsu and probably get your question answered. Obviously it has worked for you, since you managed to make your posts into the correct forum.

Cthulhu, extremely funny that you would mention what you did. As a general rule when I mention Jujutsu, I do get the assumption that I mean BJJ. I just jokingly tell people, "it's that other kind that doesn't spend all of its time rolling around on the floor".  They usually get a chuckle out of that, and mention that we do indeed do some newaza, but not to the extent of BJJ. If that is what they are interested in, then I try and refer them someplace where they can get more of what they want. As far as telling them what specific system, if they ask, I tell them. However most folks with an inkling of martial arts knowledge know what I am talking about without getting specific. Geeze, if I was that specific in every aspect of my life, can you imagine how I would drive people crazy! (Yes, I live in a multi-family two story complex for human dwelling" rather then just an "apartment".)

Kyle, at one time I did BJJ. At that time, it was called Judo.  Really after 30 years of this and advanced osteoarthritis in my hip, teaching is about as physical as I want to get. So while I am really interested in BJJ, it is not really my cup of tea anymore.


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## Kyle (Feb 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Robert Carver _
> *
> Kyle, at one time I did BJJ. At that time, it was called Judo.  Really after 30 years of this and advanced osteoarthritis in my hip, teaching is about as physical as I want to get. So while I am really interested in BJJ, it is not really my cup of tea anymore. *



  Well, it's been rehashed many times, but to say that BJJ is Judo is like saying the United States is the same as England.  Did BJJ come from Judo, yes, but they are different.

    - Kyle


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## jeffbeish (Feb 6, 2002)

I wonder when you had that photogrpah taken.  You don't look more that 30!  I have a son, 36, and daughter, 31, that appear older than you 

30 years in martial arts.  I started 50 years ago.  But, I could care less about rank.  I began to live by this simple rule:

  The Master said: The ancients were reserved in their speech, lest their actions might not come up to their words.


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## Robert Carver (Feb 6, 2002)

Kyle, that was a joke! and I DO know the difference. It was intended to inject a little humor in response to your injection of humor.  

Jeff, that photo was taken about two years ago and I really DO look that young! Looking young has some real advantages, but also has some major disadvantages as well. 

As one of the "old timers" of Judo, I stand back and bow humbly to you. Like you, I too could care less about rank, but I do care about showing proper respect to my senseis. I also care about protecting my reputation when it is brought into question, thus my reason for even responding to the "too belts too many" post.


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## Kyle (Feb 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Robert Carver _
> *Kyle, that was a joke! and I DO know the difference. It was intended to inject a little humor in response to your injection of humor.
> *



Ok, I guess I took ya too seriously, my apologies.  That won't happen again 

I don't think a BJJ class would be too tough on your hips.  It's all rolling around on the ground, fun!  (that's ne-waza stuff for you Judo types )

    - Kyle


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## Robert Carver (Feb 6, 2002)

Kyle:

No problem. I can understand taking things a bit too seriously. Not like I haven't done that before. 

Actually much of the things that we take for granted I cannot do anymore because of the hip. Basically I was diagnosed with advanced osteoarthritis of the hip. The doctor basically said that I have the hip of a 70 year old man, and the only thing they could do for me was a total hip replacement. Considering that at the time I was not even forty, and was always a very active athelete and martial artist, being told that my "career" was over was pretty tough. Since 40 is a bit young for a hip replacement (it wears out in about ten years and would have to be done again), my goal of to try and take care of it and try to last another 10 years with the original equipment.

You never realize how much of your hips are an important part of your martial arts training until you can't use them the same way anymore, or not without a considerable amount of pain. I used to do the splits, now I cannot even bring my left leg upward past 90 degrees. I can still put my palms on the floor, but it hurts like heck. Just teaching class with a lot of tai sabaki leaves me with a serious limp for a day or so after class. So as much as I would LOVE to train in BJJ, those days are a bit past. On the other hand, I do plan on bringing in a BJJ friend to teach some clinics at my dojo for my students. At least I recognize my limitations and I am determined to not let it hurt my students. Not to mention, I realize who the "real" newaza experts are! 

Good luck in your training!


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## Jay Bell (Feb 7, 2002)

> Apparently you are having difficulties dealing with the differences in an "ART" vs a "SCHOOL".



Difficulties of what, Robert?  Seeing your point of view though rather small and....well....self-adjusted?  I train in koryu jujutsu as well as koryu kobudo.  Unfortunately your "authoritative attitude" seems to be scraping the bottom of the barrel to back your opinions and views.  That must really be a downer...

Be careful, man...that high horse is a long way to the ground.  Better work on that ukemi.



> Since you did not bring up this point in your first reply however, I can only assume that by mentioning it, it was intended as a "dig".



No...the above was a dig.  Please pay attention.  



> Normally when someone is losing an argument, the tactic of personal attack is a good diversion. So that brings me to the first point...



What arguement is there exactly...maybe I'm a bit lost in the whole scheme of your expertise...but I don't recall you and I arguing.  I recall you and I giving our opinions on things.  Is typing on a board really that confrontational?



> Obviously it has worked for you, since you managed to make your posts into the correct forum.



Especially since I moderate it.

Be well, Robert.


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## Robert Carver (Feb 7, 2002)

Jay, you are right, we are not arguing. We are two experienced individuals, with strong personal opinions that are voicing our opinions. I apologize for taking this as a confrontation and implying that you are either uninformed or misguided. You are entitled to you opinion, just as I am. I respect you and your opinion, I just do not share it.

It is apparent at this stage that it is unlikely that we will be changing each others opinion. We have both managed to dig our heels in and we are both firm on our stance. Therefore, rather than let this continue to go back and forth, and continue to slide into "unfriendly" discussion (thus violating Kaith's charter for this BB), I am going to let this debate drop. Again, you are entitled to your opinion and so am I. We will just have to agree to disagree.

BTW, you may have moderation priveledges, however, if you note above you are not listed as a moderator for this forum. It currently shows:

"(Moderated by: arnisador, Cthulhu, Kaith Rustaz, Renegade)"

So you might want to ask Kaith to add you to the moderators list for this forum.

Best O' Luck...


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 7, 2002)

I think the ref is to another forum.  All our mods are listed.     Unless someone got promoted and I didnt tell me?  (That happens sometimes.  Too many days as Uki.)


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## Jay Bell (Feb 8, 2002)

Another forum, yes


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## JDenz (Sep 26, 2002)

Lol ya Jay he has a little "authoritative attitude"  lol check out the usjjf posts.  But I have to say one thing at least he stands up for his organization and he served his country.


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## Jay Bell (Sep 27, 2002)

I think you meant Mr. Carver, not myself.


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## JDenz (Sep 27, 2002)

Yes I guess I should have put a comma in.  I was speaking to you not about you lol


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## Jay Bell (Sep 27, 2002)

Oooh   Those posts in this thread are almost a year old


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