# Wing Chun Misconceptions



## zepedawingchun (Aug 20, 2010)

In the *'Time Does Not Equal Skill'* thread, during one of the many banters back and forth between me and coffeerox, he made a comment about Wing Chun that irked me. It irked me because I hear it a lot from people who have never officially trained in the system at all or trained for a short period of time and quit.  I wanted to comment about it, but found the thread was getting too volitile.  Eventually, it was locked by an Administrator.

Here is what he said:

Quote *'Without the ties to Wing Chun, I can focus on fighting and become proficient in that. I don't need you telling me that I can only learn sensitivity from a Wing Chun teacher when I've thrown that entire system out the door and instead focus on accurate striking, footwork and evasion. The best MMA fighters don't use any trapping at all and they are successful.'* unquote.

The first line tells me he doesnt know or understand the art.  The same with a lot of other people, they dont know the truth about the art.  Much like JKD, it is a concepts based art, not driven by particular techniques.  Once you learn the system, you *ARE free* to express your martial arts in any way you see fit.  It does not bind you or hold you to any one thing, how can it?  It is a tool, a means to an end, nothing more.  You fight the way you want.  It has suggestions with ideas on how to punch, parry, move, ideas that we call concepts (every art does that, even JKD), but you are not bound by it in anyway, shape, or form.  Since it is an art form, you can express it anyway you want.

Even Bruce Lee agreed you must have some sort of form, a proper way or proper mechanics for a technique to be executed to be efficient.  I see it from JKD practitioners all the time.  JKD has an idea of how to throw a proper punch, kick, parry, etc.  But it doesn't command that you use the punch in this way or that way, or in a fight use it this way or that way.  You use the technique anyway you want.  Wing Chun is the same.  It has proper form to a punch or kick to make the technique you use more efficient, but doesnt tell you that you have to do it like this when this punch comes, or use this hand position only when that technique it thrown at you, etc.  You are free to use it or do it whatever way you please.   

Wing Chun may have this drill we call chi sao, something which some other arts may have or tries to emulate (Kali has hubud, tai chi has push hands).  But like the rest of the system, it gives you parameters to help you learn and *develop* sensitivity skills.  But when you develop that sensitivity, in the end, you are free to use it anyway you want.  That's why in the thread *Are the Best Chunners Chinese?* we saw so many different ways to chi sao.  In the links, everyone had their own idea on how to chi sao, but it was done several different ways.  None of them is right, or wrong, just not the way you, or I, or some other Wing Chun lines might do it.

As for trapping, just because the best MMA fighters dont use it, doesnt mean they wouldnt want to.  The comment about MMA fighters not using it tells me coffeerox doesnt know when, or understand how, or why, to use trapping. Anytime you can get an opponents hands immobilized momentarily and hit them at will, wouldnt you want to do that?  Ask any MMA fighter, I bet theyd love to get a hit or two on their opponent without getting hit back.  MMA fighters dont use trapping most times because they dont know how.  Plus, I cant trap you if you wont let me.  Trapping happens because you set yourself up for it and I notice the conditions are right for me to trap you.  Thats all.  You cant force trapping.

Wing Chun is not a restricting art.  The only thing restricting about it is you, your idea on how to use it, and that you have to use it this way or that way, you have to do this or have to do that.  Nothing could be further from the truth then that statement.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 20, 2010)

People think MMA fighters are the 'top dog' in martial arts. They aren't. They train fog competition, which has rules, limits and referees.  Wing Chun doesn't train you to win a belt or trophy, but a life-or-death fight. Self defense != sport competition, a fact often missed sadly.


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## KamonGuy2 (Aug 20, 2010)

Zepedawingchun, your passion for wing chun is clear and that is good to see. Whilst this is like John Candy telling someone to lose weight, I would say dont get too wound up by posters on these kind of forums

Over the years I have seen guys who have insisted that cage fighting is the ultimate etc, and yet they end up short in street confrontations because they werent prepared for it. MMA fighters and competition guys are usually very good at what they do and are often quite humble guys, but many do not realise the difference between sport and confrontational training. 

I will be the first to admit how impressed I am with a lot of the MMA guys work ethic and conditioning (ie the training is very intensive and full on). Yet no matter how built someone is, it doesnt stop things happening like thumbs in eyes, chops to the throat, ears being grabbed etc

Wing chun works for the average guy where a lot of MMA wouldnt (the average guy does not want to train everyday for 4 hours, ending up with bruises everywhere). 
The average guy needs a good art that deals with situations sensibly and with ease of movement

Wing chun offers more than just sensitivity. A lot of schools do in fact train very intensively, although I would not claim that chunners do as much exercise/conditioning as cage fighters. The reason chunners do not need to work on that much conditioning, is simply that a cage fighter is looking to work through the rounds and know that he will take a bash here and there. A wing chunner aims not to let the fight de-evolve into a brawl, but to finish very quickly

There is always a need to expand on an art and look for new ideas to keep it fresh, but I still believe in the idea of having a core art that you can refer back to. I myself train in around 7 arts, but always refer back to wing chun (its what Im best at)

I think Coffeerox strayed over to MartialTalk from another forum (you know the one.) and should perhaps go back there, where the arguments he seeks will be met with open arms
Just a friendly suggestion


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 20, 2010)

Also one must take into account that many of the most boisterous MMA defenders/attackers on many MA forums are couch MMAists with great expertise in what they see on TV or what they read somewhere.


Many of the actual MMA people I have talked to or meant are pretty good people who remind me of what TMA training (and banter) use to be.


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## Steve (Aug 20, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> People think MMA fighters are the 'top dog' in martial arts. They aren't. They train fog competition, which has rules, limits and referees. Wing Chun doesn't train you to win a belt or trophy, but a life-or-death fight. Self defense != sport competition, a fact often missed sadly.


 Bob, you train Wing Chun?  I didn't know that.  I thought you were an eskrima guy.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 20, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Bob, you train Wing Chun?  I didn't know that.  I thought you were an eskrima guy.


I've dabbled a bit in the past, and we had a WC instructor at one of our meets a few years ago.  Done more reading about it and chatting with a couple of much more experienced folk over the years though.


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## dungeonworks (Aug 20, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> In the *'Time Does Not Equal Skill'* thread, during one of the many banters back and forth between me and coffeerox, he made a comment about Wing Chun that irked me. It irked me because I hear it a lot from people who have never officially trained in the system at all or trained for a short period of time and quit.  I wanted to comment about it, but found the thread was getting too volitile.  Eventually, it was locked by an Administrator.
> 
> Here is what he said:
> 
> ...



I am going to differ with you on the MMA not having trapping.  They sure do have trapping as does other styles such as BJJ, wrestling, Muay Thai...ect.  Is not a crucifix a trap?  How about when somebody (say Anderson Silva) latches on a Thai clinch from hell and pressures the shoulders with the elbows?  BJJ guys trap more than anyone in MMA that I have seen, although I believe they call it "isolating", like when they are isolating an arm setting up an armbar.  Guys trap hands BIG TIME when they are in a tight guard underneath a smashing machine of a fighter such as Brock Lesnar or Mark Kerr, or Mark Coleman (going old skool!  ).  It isn't "Textbook Wing Chun Trapping" but traps are there.

As far as the perceived attitude of the average Joe Blow MMA fan, well, you have that in any sport...ESPECIALLY if we are talking any Detroit team fan and you add BEER! LOL  

To me, MMA is my favorite sport.  As with ALL SPORTS, some will like it while others will not.  Sometimes we give far too much weight to the Couch Potato MMA fans that frequent internet forums and post like they even remotely know what heck they are talking about.  I have been hooked since UFC #1 and have only missed a few PPV's during the near death dark ages prior to Zuffa reviving it from the mismanagement and misdirection of Roiron Gracie and Semaphore Entertainment Group (SEG).  It is not that far off from a real street fight when compared to other combat sports, so most non martial artist/boxers/kickboxers/wrestlers and others that have never traded hands ever will see MMA "as real as it gets!".  It is trendy to watch and wear the UFC, Affliction, or TapOut gear as well, so people have some odd urge to "represent".  I handle such people by engaging them in conversation.  If they seem like they are willing to hear me out, it usually ends up educating them that MMA is not the be all end all of fighting, although it is best competition we have in a controlled environment IMVHO. It's the Yin/Yang of when others do not understand Wing Chun and mindlessly dismiss it....just from the other side.

Like I said, I really enjoy MMA.  I really miss the early years when it was style vs style, but the evolved sport it became is fun for me to watch.  It helps me blow off steam the same way an avid NFL fan does watching their team play.

Excellent post and thread Zepeda!  As far as MMA guys dismissing Wing Chun, I believe those days are numbered.  I have met three local MMA fighters in the last few weeks that are looking into and/or training Wing Chun and one other that is training Jun Fan (Bruce Lee's early JKD curriculum).  As I have been seeing myself, Wing Chun is an art that will make what you may already know that much better.  Heck, of all things, Wing Chun has improved my ground game quite a bit on the sensitivity (BJJ uses their own "acquired" sensitivity while it's curriculum to Chunner's).

Just my $.02 on the credit card.


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## dungeonworks (Aug 20, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Also one must take into account that many of the most boisterous MMA defenders/attackers on many MA forums are couch MMAists with great expertise in what they see on TV or what they read somewhere.
> 
> 
> Many of the actual MMA people I have talked to or meant are pretty good people who remind me of what TMA training (and banter) use to be.




....and still can be in some circles.  Just like any sport's fans, you have those that know more than the coach or caddy!


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## matsu (Aug 20, 2010)

wow...great first post.
i just hope that coffeedude doesnt take this as a personal attack,it was so not!!
because this was a very passionate insightful paragraph into the concepts of wing chun.
thank you for posting and i hope "everyone" takes in the essence of what was said.
matsu


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 20, 2010)

dungeonworks said:


> I am going to differ with you on the MMA not having trapping. They sure do have trapping as does other styles such as BJJ, wrestling, Muay Thai...ect. Is not a crucifix a trap? How about when somebody (say Anderson Silva) latches on a Thai clinch from hell and pressures the shoulders with the elbows? BJJ guys trap more than anyone in MMA that I have seen, although I believe they call it "isolating", like when they are isolating an arm setting up an armbar. Guys trap hands BIG TIME when they are in a tight guard underneath a smashing machine of a fighter such as Brock Lesnar or Mark Kerr, or Mark Coleman (going old skool!  ). It isn't "Textbook Wing Chun Trapping" but traps are there.


 
Before this goes any further, let me clarify the no trapping comment.  I did not say there was no trapping done by MMA fighter.  It was the person I quoted who stated that.  I see it all the time and understand it.  However, it is like dungeonworks stated, it isn't textbook WC trapping.  It doesn't matter how it gets done, it's there.

Kamon Guy, I know I shouldn't get too involved bickering on a forum.  But after the insults thrown my way, I can't let anything get by without clarification.  Besides, I like a good fight and enjoy getting under some people's skin.


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## mook jong man (Aug 20, 2010)

The thing with trapping is that it is not something that can be learned overnight , it takes years like chi sau because it is an element of chi sau.

If we take a very simple trap such as a Pak sau and punch for example , very simple because the lead hand of the attacker is taken out of the equation for that split second needed for your hand to hit through.

Even with this seemingly simple trap it can always be refined and polished , you will notice with novices that they will sometimes use slight  one- two motion when they attack the guard of their opponent.

 Whereas the experienced students hands will spring out simultaneously with great force with the Pak itself almost becoming an impact weapon on the attackers wrists.

I've said it once and I'll say it again the best defence against trapping is good rolling , don't give them anything to work with like crossing your hands over the centreline and it will be very difficult for you to be trapped.

So in closing I believe the skill of trapping takes years to perfect under a qualified master , as does the skill of perfecting the counters to the various traps , something I find more enjoyable than executing the traps themselves.

Remember it is relatively easy to learn to hit someone , but to learn to stop someone hitting you is a lot harder.


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## coffeerox (Aug 20, 2010)

> The thing with trapping is that it is not something that can be learned  overnight , it takes years like chi sau because it is an element of chi  sau.


Exactly, that is why I made the comment.  Since I can't learn how to master trapping by myself then it's not going to be included in what I do *until I can be professionally taught*. 

I do have a few basic traps I learned when I *was* self training however I've adopted the JKD concept for trapping which is that it's a byproduct, not the main focus of combat.  Because it's a by-product, I need to first learn strikes and conditioning the body.

It's really not all that uncommon to find a combat style that doesn't trap, or trap in a very limited fashion.  Like Chinaboxer said, if you're young and fast, you can hit them before they hit you, you don't need trapping in that regard.  Boxing in fact has more evasion than trapping and that system works, we all know it.  That is one system that I am interested in signing up for.

Lastly, don't take what I've said to heart.  This is what I do, this is not what you do, so don't be concerned about it.  Lots of people are into "external" martial arts, me included so I'm not really being unique, it might seem so b/c we are on the Wing Chun board but in the grand scope of things, it's really a common occurrence.



> They sure do have trapping as does other styles such as BJJ, wrestling, Muay Thai...ect.


They sure do, but I said what I said because trapping as we know it from Wing Chun (and extent, JFJKD) doesn't really exist in current state of MMA.



> Wing Chun is not a restricting  art.  The only thing restricting about it is you, your idea on how to  use it, and that you have to use it this way or that way, you have to do  this or have to do that.  Nothing could be further from the truth then  that statement.


Of course. It's not a restricting art. I know that FULL well.  The concepts alone have gotten me far and I haven't had a teacher yet!!  What I meant by that comment is that, Chi Sao is something that I cannot train by myself.  You all have made that PERFECTLY clear.  I've also known from the start, that I cannot do this without someone else and that I needed professional training.  So it's pretty obvious why I made that decision to instead focus on striking, footwork, etc, something that I can do by myself for the time being.  Is it a bad thing? No.  Does that mean I don't understand the art? No. Hell no.  It is BECAUSE I understand it that I said what I said.

This thread was made because as an opponent, you don't listen closely to what I say and instead you focus on fighting it, which I can tell you as an experienced community manager, is wrong. Listen to me, and there's more to what I have to say then what's there.



> The comment about MMA fighters not using it tells me coffeerox doesn&#8217;t know when, or understand how, or why, to use trapping.



Wrong.  The comment about MMA fighters not using it is because they don't.  *Not in the way that Wing Chun or JFJKD does it.*  It's not because *I* don't understand it.  I do understand it.  So all my research for 1 year and 1/2 has been for nothing?


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 21, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> This thread was made because as an opponent, you don't listen closely to what I say and instead you focus on fighting it, which I can tell you as an experienced community manager, is wrong. Listen to me, and there's more to what I have to say then what's there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## matsu (Aug 21, 2010)

and that was a perfect articulate answer.
 zepede...... i,m emigrating to come and train with you mate!

matsu


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2010)

I don't use trapping in MMA...because I don't know how to. Saying it doesn't work in MMA or even comparing anythng badly to MMA really, really,really annoys me! No wonder MMA and its fighters get bad names. However as I've just had my third sesson in JKD (there's no WC class near at all) I'm at least one half a footstep on the road to finding out. I've enjoyed it so far and enough to be paying my insurance and signing up properly next week.
I don't believe that one can understand an art unless one actually does it, all the reading in the world won't teach you what an instructor can. That goes for a great many things, I can read up about being a surgeon, be word perfect in how to operate but I'm betting no one will want me operating on them!


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## matsu (Aug 21, 2010)

hi tez
when i watch ufc or some of the older pride stuff. i frequently talk to the tv as if it were the third person in the room lol. 
and i,m saying ah he should have pinned that down or trapped that arm and come over the top. or chopped there.... very easy for me to see and say as an armchair critic...
 and even more so with elbows, no one uses elbows as we are taught and they would be devastating in the right situation..
the more i watch the more i wonder if just the ufc/mma guys i have seen thus far have not been introduced/experienced real wing chun and some of its core principles.
as they step toe to toe its very much a point scoring attitude-similar to my karate days. bounce in bang and get out and the other guys is always backing off.... 
no one ive seen so far punches to bridge,thus staying their ground and finding a way in up and close as we do.
they get tangles and caught up but it seems very much more bjj style trying to control and not wing chun control.

as a relative beginner i may be off base and i certainly couldnt do what they do but i honestly think if they tangled with my sifu he would just tie them up,bring them in close and finish them very quickly with just  few simple wing chun principles that very few if any mma guys seem to know or use.
i dont think mma has a bad name. i think we all have a huge respect for them, they are versed in so many arts/techniques and are supreme athletes and it is a sport i very much enjoy but i do not think its the complete fighting "ART" that most people honour it with. i think a good martial artist of any art could compete with a good mma guy if all rules being equal.
just my 0.02
matsu


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 21, 2010)

> So all my research for 1 year and 1/2 has been for nothing?


I've got 10 years of research under my belt on Wing Chun. I don't claim to understand it. Zepeda, Geezer, etc who have years of actual serious training however, just might know what they talk about. I trust their insights and experiences more than I do mine.


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2010)

matsu said:


> hi tez
> when i watch ufc or some of the older pride stuff. i frequently talk to the tv as if it were the third person in the room lol.
> and i,m saying ah he should have pinned that down or trapped that arm and come over the top. or chopped there.... very easy for me to see and say as an armchair critic...
> and even more so with elbows, no one uses elbows as we are taught and they would be devastating in the right situation..
> ...


 

I don't understand what you mean about the rules being equal? The rules in UK MMA don't give the advantage to any one type of fighter and are specifically for MMA. To compete one would need to be able to match your opponent on the ground and on the floor. I've seen fighters use elbows to great effect, they are a staple of both karate and MT. Have a watch out for the UK MMA fights, you'll see a lot more techniques in there, look out too for Sami Berik's fights, he's WC. 
When watching MMA it's always easier to see stuff the fighters should be doing lol, thats why the fighters need good corner people to help spot things their opponent is doing and such like. 
I would hesitate to say any one particular style will beat an MMA fighter, one of the best things about MMA is that you learn to adapt very quickly to someone else's style. If WC alone could beat a fighter I think Sami wouldn't have trained in the ground work etc.  I will have to ask him.  I do think techniques from WC will more than likely be useful though as yet I don't know which ones, not all but then not all techniques in any style will help in an MMA competition.


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## matsu (Aug 21, 2010)

hey tez..the rules do apply when i wouldnt be allowed to stomp on his knee as he adanced or lift kick to the groin or thumb in the eye as he tried to take me to the floor, or nice chop across the throat as he tried to tie my hands in a bjj grapple. these are all very basic wing chun moves i have been taught from day one. so the rules of the ring and the fact i would be wearing gloves would limit me if i played only with wing chun.
 i wont take anything away from the mma guys, as i said before love the sport and huge respect for every single one of them.

and i know from when i,m training, that a fraction of a second after i missed an opportunity when sparring at 50% speed how difficult it is for a competitor to not see the openings as well as a coach or a sofa critic such as myself so that def wasnt a critiscm, 
it was an observation/question that do they know how many wing chun techniques could improve their game.
i have seen some great elbow shots but they were not wing chun elbow moves to my mind.and i did karate for quite a while so i can compare the two/three styles without being bias.
and i will def keep my eye out for sami berik.
thanks for the debate.. its all good.
 i learn,perhaps even more so if i,m proved incorrct with my observations.
matsu


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2010)

matsu said:


> hey tez..the rules do apply when i wouldnt be allowed to stomp on his knee as he adanced or lift kick to the groin or thumb in the eye as he tried to take me to the floor, or nice chop across the throat as he tried to tie my hands in a bjj grapple. these are all very basic wing chun moves i have been taught from day one. so the rules of the ring and the fact i would be wearing gloves would limit me if i played only with wing chun.
> i wont take anything away from the mma guys, as i said before love the sport and huge respect for every single one of them.
> 
> and i know from when i,m training, that a fraction of a second after i missed an opportunity when sparring at 50% speed how difficult it is for a competitor to not see the openings as well as a coach or a sofa critic such as myself so that def wasnt a critiscm,
> ...


 

Well, the rules apply because it's a competition and with few exceptions we all like each other too much to cause each other damage   We enjoy the competition, its a game of mind and body. I'm sure there's loads we could do to hurt each other but despite what some think that's not really the name of the game.

I think everyone thinks that MMA fighters should train in their style to improve their game but only the very few pro fighters we have could afford the time and effort involved in training as much as would be needed to integrate all styles. The rest of us can only train as much as most martial artists do and so must limit what we learn to what we know works. Ah well, when I win the lottery...........


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## mook jong man (Aug 21, 2010)

I don't think there would be a whole lot you could use to be perfectly honest.

Wing Chun is just not suited to that type of sport , gloves on the hands decrease the effectiveness of trapping and close range striking.
Fighting with no shoes on decreases the effect of low heel kicks to the knees and shins.

Which then leaves you with maybe a snap kick or knee strike to the groin , or  hook kicks with the shin to the outer and inner thighs which may or may not be effective against someone who is used to taking heavy impacts on their thighs day in and day out.

You might be able to knee strike the thighs ( I don't know what the rules are ) , elbows you might be able to use - but most of the time they are used off the end of a trapping technique so again we get back to having to know trapping first so that you are not eating punches while you are trying to finish with the coup de grace elbow strike.

There are a lot of forearm strikes to the throat and edge of the hand type palm strikes to the neck in Wing Chun and much like the chain punching these can be delivered in a rapid and continuous manner in conjunction with trapping , you wouldn't be able to use these unless you wanted to see someone on the floor with a crushed larynx.

The system was supposedly designed by a woman so that a smaller person could defeat a larger attacker so of course a very large percentage of the target areas are located on sensitive parts of the anatomy.

These sensitive areas are good for self defence but not so good for sport.

The problem as I see it is that in somebody who has been training quite a long time these moves can be very well ingrained and are integral parts of a lot of the techniques and may not be able to be switched off when under the effects of adrenaline.

I think it would take a very big shift in mind set from self defence to sport , the whole system would have to be re-jigged in order to make it more sports friendly.

Maybe someone might come up with some sort of sports hybrid Wing Chun where most of the lethal techniques are taken out and the normal target areas aren't used.

But its a bit like de-clawing a cat and expecting it to fight a dog , most of its ability to defend itself has been taken away.


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## matsu (Aug 21, 2010)

tez
does sami berik do wing chun?
i youtubed him and i saw kung fu but very little wing chun that i recognised.
having said that, the guy is tough and mad for it!!!
ill keep me eye on him for sure
matsu


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2010)

matsu said:


> tez
> does sami berik do wing chun?
> i youtubed him and i saw kung fu but very little wing chun that i recognised.
> having said that, the guy is tough and mad for it!!!
> ...


 
Yes he is WC as well as Tai Chi (fighting), see here from his website ( designed by his brother)

http://www.samiberik.com/hunsite.html

If you You Tubed did you see the Pride & Glory fight ( bad video, not an official one) of his fight with Jenkins? That's our promotion, it was a small fight night we had in Catterick Garrison, there's nowhere big enough to have a proper fight night of any size.


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## matsu (Aug 21, 2010)

thanks for the link, cool site.
he is atough bugger with real heart!
still not sure on his wc lol but he is great to watch
matsu


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2010)

matsu said:


> thanks for the link, cool site.
> he is atough bugger with real heart!
> *still not sure on his wc* lol but he is great to watch
> matsu


 

Are you saying you don't think he trained it or you don't see it in his fighting?


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## matsu (Aug 21, 2010)

I would Never question his intergrity his heart or his honour. But there is little wing chun in his cage techiques. He might use what he has learned in his understanding etc 
he doesn't check their kicks like we are taught. He swings wild leaving his centre line open and doesn't seek to control theirs. 
I am far from experienced and wouldn't last seconds in the ring with him I'm certain and my observations are purely that he might benefit from re looking at some of the things we are taught.
I wish him well in his comeback
matsu


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## geezer (Aug 21, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I don't use trapping in MMA...because I don't know how to. Saying it doesn't work in MMA or even comparing anythng badly to MMA really, really,really annoys me!...
> _*I don't believe that one can understand an art unless one actually does it,*_ all the reading in the world won't teach you what an instructor can. That goes for a great many things, I can read up about being a surgeon, be word perfect in how to operate but I'm betting no one will want me operating on them!



Ain't _that_ the truth! Thanks, Tez. Goodness knows, there has been an abundance of unqualified speculation flying about on this forum lately. I don't want to add to it.

I've got opinions about how well some WC approaches could work in MMA... but they're just _speculations_ until somebody better than I can get into the cage and try them out. My take is that the best MMA guys are great athletes, and they know what works. If WC concepts will help them win, somebody will pick up on it.


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## BloodMoney (Aug 21, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> I've been actively training and teaching WC for 28 years, so believe me when I say, with 1 and 1/2 years, you've only scratched the surface, you have a *lot* more to discover.



lol. Amen. I too took exception to coffeerox ignorant ramblings, and I too shouldnt have taken the trollbait....ive just heard it all too many times before to have the patience for it.




mook jong man said:


> (Edited version)
> 
> -Wing Chun is just not suited to that type of sport , gloves on the hands decrease the effectiveness of trapping and close range striking.
> Fighting with no shoes on decreases the effect of low heel kicks to the knees and shins.
> ...



Your post basically answers every "if Chun is so good why dont MMA guys use it?" argument ever made.

I dont think it would be possible to explain it any better man, honestly. These same points I have heard myself say time and time again (I also train BJJ so come across MMA guys a bit). Thankyou


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## profesormental (Aug 22, 2010)

Greetings.

It is important to note the following.

The training is supposed to be geared towards the situation.

If you train to defend yourself, most probably it will be against thug type, street puke offensives and self defense type situations. This means that they fight a certain way.

training against this type of attacker has certain specifics, including psychological aspects, like rage, lack of respect, surprise attacks and intent to KILL in the worst cases.

This is very different from a match and competition, where the intent is to dominate and win according to certain rules. Also, the opponents (notice "opponent" is different from "attacker") skill set is quite different from that of a street thug/assault criminal. The intent is different, the objectives are different, and the environment is different, physically and psychologically.

For example, trapping a guy that just wants to swing at you and hurt you, is different than trapping an opponent in a match where both parties know that they wanna "match" their skills in a game, so defense is focused on more. And the element of the surprise "sucker punch" is taken away, since the match begins with the bell.

You can train both, since each gives several attribute trainings. Yet you don't need to train for the ring if you just want the ability to survive a self defense type situation.

Hope that helps. There's a lot more, yet I have to get back to work and training.

Sincerely,

Juan Mercado
Wing Chun SiFu
American Kenpo Professor
Licensed MMA Trainer / Practitioner
(Thus I am not really qualified to make an educated opinion)


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## coffeerox (Aug 22, 2010)

geezer said:


> Ain't _that_ the truth! Thanks, Tez. Goodness knows, there has been an abundance of unqualified speculation flying about on this forum lately. I don't want to add to it.



But you did add to it, since you're not MMA you're not qualified to comment on it however what you said is common sense so there's no way you can go wrong.  Either way you contradicted yourself.

I would also like to add a bit of online community wisdom.  This comment right here is a prime example of arguing and debating online.  It comes down to who is on your side and who isn't.  Doesn't matter what the facts are.

Despite what many think (that we're not against each other, etc) we actually are, because you're not going to agree with me, you got your own set of beliefs.  The point is making me believe what you believe (like religion)  That is the goal of everything said here.  If you happen to already agree, then you're part of that group.

About the unqualified speculation, welcome to 2010.  Everybody makes unqualified speculations.  The beauty of a real debate is that it becomes a learning experience.  The problem is that people refuse to allow themselves to be enlightened by those they think are inferior to them (in some way, any way).  You have to realize that people come from all walks of life and there is ALWAYS something to learn.

I do not believe that there is 1 single person that has a capacity to go beyond this like I do.  In fact I don't know anybody that can.


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## yak sao (Aug 22, 2010)

[_quote=coffeerox;1317336]But you did add to it, *since you're not MMA you're not qualified to comment on it* however what you said is common sense so there's no way you can go wrong. Either way you contradicted yourself_.


and yet you continue to weigh in on every single WC thread that comes along. A subject you know absolutely nothing about except what you have read in books or seen on video.


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## dungeonworks (Aug 22, 2010)

profesormental said:


> Greetings.
> 
> It is important to note the following.
> 
> ...



I like your postings Juan.  You can add clairity to some things around here and in a tactful and respectful way.

Some people cannot understand that EVERY ART involved in the MMA game has to go by the same rules and be MODIFIED to fit within it's confines.  I see a few things where Wing Chun would be good for MMA, but in no way am I saying the whole style.  *NO MODERN MMA FIGHTER USES JUST ONE STYLE ANYMORE SINCE UFC 4!!!* MMA has become a freestyle form of sport fighting of it's own with bits here and there of many styles.  It works in the street as well (against the stereotypical looking thug that karate schools around America picture while they train) and I can show you videos from Felony Fights video series, which is a NO RULES AND NO GEAR underground competition.  Here are just two of them.  These are truly anything goes with no hold or strike barred.  Some of these actually have eye gouges and throat strikes to boot, but beware of some of the content as they include some horrid language (for those offended by such).  These two are tame but still, what is offensive to one may not be to another.

*FELONY FIGHTS MMA FIGHTER*


*mma fighter makes short work of chump*


(Beware of some language use for those offended by such.)


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2010)

yak sao said:


> [_quote=coffeerox;1317336]But you did add to it, *since you're not MMA you're not qualified to comment on it* however what you said is common sense so there's no way you can go wrong. Either way you contradicted yourself_.
> 
> 
> and yet you continue to weigh in on every single WC thread that comes along. A subject you know absolutely nothing about except what you have read in books or seen on video.


 


I 'do' MMA and I actually think any reasonably experienced martial artist is qualified to comment on it if they wish. It's not rocket science to a martial artist, there's kicks, punches, elbow, knees, takedowns and submissions along with KOs. You don't have to be be able to do them exactly the same way to know what you are seeing, WC as far as I'm learning punches with the hand a bit differently from a karateka who punches a bit differently from a boxer but you still know they are punches etc.

You can learn something from MMA whatever your style if you want to or you can just sit and enjoy the contests or you can ignore it altogether, getting pompous about it is pointless and only winds up good people as above. I think as pointed out above it's the height of cheek coming onto a specific section and lecturing them on their own style! Is WC any good for MMA, I don't know but I'm looking forward to finding out, I imagine it has things that will be useful, it may be the speed and the co-ordination, it may be more but always one should listen to the people experienced in actually doing the art, reading and watching videos just isn't going to cut it!


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## dungeonworks (Aug 22, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> ....I think as pointed out above it's the height of cheek coming onto a specific section and lecturing them on their own style! Is WC any good for MMA, I don't know but I'm looking forward to finding out, I imagine it has things that will be useful, it may be the speed and the co-ordination, it may be more but always one should listen to the people experienced in actually doing the art, reading and watching videos just isn't going to cut it!



I heard that brother! :BSmeter:

I agree Tez, and am excited to see where it goes in MMA....speaking as a Chun student and MMA fan.  I think the largest hurdle for WC in MMA is the time it takes to absorb and assimilate WC into a usable tool for MMA (...or street defense).


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2010)

geezer said:


> Ain't _that_ the truth! Thanks, Tez. Goodness knows, there has been an abundance of unqualified speculation flying about on this forum lately. I don't want to add to it.
> 
> I've got opinions about how well some WC approaches could work in MMA... but they're just _speculations_ until somebody better than I can get into the cage and try them out. My take is that the best MMA guys are great athletes, and they know what works. If WC concepts will help them win, somebody will pick up on it.


Great point.   

I think that people should remember this not only when someone comments on Wing Chun, JKD or what have you.  It seems to me that a lot of people are comfortable commenting on MMA, BJJ or any other style related to MMA that they only know by reputation and YouTube.  This goes both ways, folks.


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## matsu (Aug 22, 2010)

thanks for ur input steve.
i hope we as "group" dont  look down or criticise om mma/bjj or other arts from an uneducated point of view. we are lucky to hae a few members that do several arts and are able to steer us in the right direction if we dont understand a concept or a reason.
i know my observations/comments on mma esp,are from the sofa and as such are just observations FROM that point of view. and i make them as such hoping someone else will clarify/correct and effectively teach me something i dont know.
thanks again
matsu


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## KamonGuy2 (Aug 23, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> But you did add to it, since you're not MMA you're not qualified to comment on it however what you said is common sense so there's no way you can go wrong. Either way you contradicted yourself.
> 
> I would also like to add a bit of online community wisdom. This comment right here is a prime example of arguing and debating online. It comes down to who is on your side and who isn't. Doesn't matter what the facts are.
> 
> ...


 Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. You are seriously lacking in both awareness of this forum and how good some of its members are at their particular martial art, as well as lacking in any kind of humility. I have arguments/debates all the time with people on here, whether I like them or not. Most of its members have the same attitude

I have known Geezer through here for a couple of years now and find him to be a very insightful fellow. Therefore, you will probably find that people do 'weigh in' on his side.


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## MJS (Aug 23, 2010)

Just an FYI, coffeerox will no longer be able to reply to any messages here.  

However, please do not let that stop this thread, as it seems to be going well.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 23, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> Doesn't matter what the facts are.


 
Actually, yes it does and you are also rather guilty of what you are accusing other of doing on this point.

Do you train MMA?

For how long have you trained MMA?

Do you train at an MMA school or is this self training?

Do you train Wing Chun?

For how long have you trained Wing Chun?

Do you train at an Wing Chun school or is this self training?


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 23, 2010)

MJS said:


> Just an FYI, coffeerox will no longer be able to reply to any messages here.
> 
> However, please do not let that stop this thread, as it seems to be going well.


 
Oh sure NOW you tell me :uhyeah:


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 23, 2010)

I have posted these here before in other threads but it goes to show that true MMA tend to be open to any MA or any training that will help them win.

One was an MMA person I talked to that was competing and he had trained many many MA styles including TKD, Karate, Boxing, Baguazhang, Judo, Aikido, BJJ, Qigong and he was asking me a lot about taijiquan. Basically he was looking to learn anything that would help him win.

Another Taijiquan person I knew went to train MMA and he said it was a blast he was learning how to better deal with hardcore aggressive attacks and improving his root and the MMA people at the gym were learning how to deal with someone that had a strong root. At first he said the aggressive nature of it threw him but once he got use to it he just depended on his Taiji and his root and the MMA people were then having a real hard time dealing with someone with a strong root. All in all it was a win win for both sides.

Point being that we are better off learning from other styles and other MAist than we are berating them

Personally I have always felt if you want to be a well rounded MAist that a combination of Judo and Wing Chun would be a good mix but then so would a combination of Muay Thai and BJJ or Aikido and Karate or Shuaijiao and Long Fist. Or any other combination of various MA styles. Or you could train any one of them individually all are good a fighting if trained properly


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## mograph (Aug 23, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Point being that we are better off learning from other styles and other MAist than we are berating them.


This learning (and not berating) is a goal of the MartialTalk community, no?


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## geezer (Aug 23, 2010)

mograph said:


> This learning (and not berating) is a goal of the MartialTalk community, no?


 
Exactly why it (along with FMATalk) is about the only martial arts forum I bother with anymore.


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## shaolin_al (Aug 23, 2010)

This thread has become very entertaining. Haha.


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 23, 2010)

MJS said:


> Just an FYI, coffeerox will no longer be able to reply to any messages here.
> 
> However, please do not let that stop this thread, as it seems to be going well.


 
Is that for just this thread, or for the whole forum?


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 23, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Oh sure NOW you tell me :uhyeah:


 
Now we don't have to hold you back because we were affraid you might hurt the guy.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 23, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> Is that for just this thread, or for the whole forum?


Entire Forum.  His membership has been revoked after extensive consideration by the steering board.


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## BloodMoney (Aug 23, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Point being that we are better off learning from other styles and other MAist than we are berating them
> 
> Personally I have always felt if you want to be a well rounded MAist that a combination of Judo and Wing Chun would be a good mix but then so would a combination of Muay Thai and BJJ or Aikido and Karate or Shuaijiao and Long Fist. Or any other combination of various MA styles. Or you could train any one of them individually all are good a fighting if trained properly



Amen brother.



Bob Hubbard said:


> Entire Forum.  His membership has been revoked after extensive consideration by the steering board.



*applauds*

thankyouverymuch


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 23, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Entire Forum. His membership has been revoked after extensive consideration by the steering board.


 
Quotes from the _*'New to Wing Chun'*_ thread,

Matsu said: *'and i know you are an expert in reading people via the worldwide web and that you are probably gonna hunt me down across continents and oceans and put me to sleep permanantly with some ninja technique you hae perfected while levitating in an astral plane not of this dimension ........'*

Coffeerox said: *'I can actually do that lol! One time this guy was getting bad with me following me to other threads and I demonstrated that I found his mom, his real name, and phone number and threatened to call his mom due to his behavior, I even found the place he hangs out at, plus what he looks like. Have you seen what the 4chan guys do to people? Those guys are crazy and they're 10 times better at it than I am.'*


I guess we all have to start looking over our shoulder now for awhile because someone might hunt us down, call our moms, find the places we hangout (other than this forum), because 4 crazy guys were told they were 10 times better than us and they needed to kick our asses for some guy who thinks coffee rocks (or like rocks in his coffee).


That was funny matsu, you had me rolling all over the floor, laughing, when you wrote that. Best line in the whole thread.


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 23, 2010)

Quote from 'New to Wing Chun' thread.

Coffeerox: *'The only person here who have seen my SNT is geezer, so PM him and ask him what he thought of it as I can't post a video. He did make some corrections, feed me some new info and I still practice it to this day.'* 

Geezer, since he said to ask, I'm asking.  What did his SNT look like?  Did you have a lot of stuff to correct?  Did he seem like he was getting it right after you fixed his problems?  Also, what about is execution of the various hand positions, did he illustrate any of them to you for your opinion and correction?  

You don't have to discuss it if you don't want to, just curious.


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## Nabakatsu (Aug 24, 2010)

Not that it's ANY of MY business, but perhaps we should just let this blow over, as fun as it was to get some of our blood going a bit, it seems unnecessary to continue feeding into what has come to pass. I'm sure in part the fellow was just a bit understood. Although I wouldn't go so far as calling him a sweet little teddybear.. 
Anyways.. sort of on topic.. the biggest misconception I hear about wing chun is people thinking it's wang chun like the song..


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## KamonGuy2 (Aug 24, 2010)

Im sure he will be back....

But anyway, the classic misconception for WC is thinking it is a toilet (according to Leung Ting)....


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## WC_lun (Aug 24, 2010)

The concepts of Wing Chun can be used in MMA effectively. My instructor and two of my classmates have training in MMA.  Another classmate operates a JJ and Judo school.  There are several people with other martial arts backgrounds to a pretty high level.  This is pretty convenient as it means we get to test our Wing Chun against all different types of people and systems.

It does take a while to become proficient at Wing Chun enough to use it against other high level martial artist in a sporting enviroment.  That means a lot of time training it.  Most guys I know that do MMA prefer to pick up MT or western boxing instead because the basics are quicker to learn and they have already been proven in a sporting enviroment.

There is a difference between self defense and a sporting match.  MMA is a sporting match with rules and a certain mind set.  Self defense has no rules and it is far more chaotic.  However, too many guys think that because MMA is trained with rules and pretty simplistic stand up, it isn't dangerous on the street.  It is, if nothing else because they train with resisting opponents, applying thier technique %100.  It is good to know there is a difference between sporting and real street fighting.  Using that knowledge as an excuse is not helpful in the least if someone using sporting techniques manhandles you on the street.  I'm not saying anyone here is guilty of this fantasy, but I have seen it a lot.


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## Vajramusti (Aug 24, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> People think MMA fighters are the 'top dog' in martial arts. They aren't. They train fog competition, which has rules, limits and referees.  Wing Chun doesn't train you to win a belt or trophy, but a life-or-death fight. Self defense != sport competition, a fact often missed sadly.


-----------------------------------------
A good statement Bob.
In some ways wing chun is also a high tech art-mastering the details takes time and good direction and correct practice and experience.
Wing chun develops the reflexes in every direction.
I don't have to mix other things with my wing chun. It does not hurt to see what other systems do- but it is best to play a wing chun game with others- when the wing chun is properly developed.

joy chaudhuri


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## KamonGuy2 (Aug 24, 2010)

I think there is a danger that wing chunners get arrogant about their art (and usually why we get a bad rep on other forums)

Wing chun is not complete, in the same way that many other arts arent complete. A complete martial art would have strategies and techniques in ALL areas of fighting. Wing chun doesnt

Certainly a good wing chun practitioner will be a hard opponent, especially in a street scenario. Yet, there are still times where chunners will struggle

It is extremely important to utilize skills from other arts to make you a complete martial artist. It is not betraying wing chun to look outside the box. If a boxer came up to me and said that his art was a complete system, I would give him the same answer

It is great to have tradition and build a foundation art, whether it be karate, tai chi, aikido etc. Yet, to be a good fighter, you need to have an overall good game 

The answers most chunners give when faced with the ground game scenario is 'Id never get taken to the ground'. This isnt good enough. Especially when you consider classic examples such as Boztepe vs Cheung, or when you see extremely good martial artists get unwillingly taken to the ground in UFC or Bushido etc

Some chunners need to dip their toes in the pool and see whats out there.


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## Vajramusti (Aug 24, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> I think there is a danger that wing chunners get arrogant about their art (and usually why we get a bad rep on other forums)
> 
> Wing chun is not complete, in the same way that many other arts arent complete. A complete martial art would have strategies and techniques in ALL areas of fighting. Wing chun doesnt
> 
> ...


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## dungeonworks (Aug 24, 2010)

wc_lun said:


> the concepts of wing chun can be used in mma effectively. My instructor and two of my classmates have training in mma.  Another classmate operates a jj and judo school.  There are several people with other martial arts backgrounds to a pretty high level.  This is pretty convenient as it means we get to test our wing chun against all different types of people and systems.
> 
> It does take a while to become proficient at wing chun enough to use it against other high level martial artist in a sporting enviroment.  That means a lot of time training it.  Most guys i know that do mma prefer to pick up mt or western boxing instead because the basics are quicker to learn and they have already been proven in a sporting enviroment.
> 
> There is a difference between self defense and a sporting match.  Mma is a sporting match with rules and a certain mind set.  Self defense has no rules and it is far more chaotic.  *however, too many guys think that because mma is trained with rules and pretty simplistic stand up, it isn't dangerous on the street.  It is, if nothing else because they train with resisting opponents, applying thier technique %100.*  it is good to know there is a difference between sporting and real street fighting.  Using that knowledge as an excuse is not helpful in the least if someone using sporting techniques manhandles you on the street.  I'm not saying anyone here is guilty of this fantasy, but i have seen it a lot.



*finally* someone other than myself that sees this point too!!!!


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 24, 2010)

dungeonworks said:


> *finally* someone other than myself that sees this point too!!!!


 
Your not the only one 

I have said this before

If I was given a choice between fighting Cung Le - Sports Sanshou 

Or fighting my last Sanshou sifu - police Military Sanshou

I would choose running because my insurance does not cover acts of stupidity


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## BloodMoney (Aug 24, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> Wing chun is not complete, in the same way that many other arts arent complete. A complete martial art would have strategies and techniques in ALL areas of fighting.



I disagree with that. I think Chun _is _a complete system, in the same way that many other arts _are _complete. They are a system, an art, designed with a specific style or structure in mind. Go tell an Aikido guy hes system isnt complete lol, and your ground skills better be pretty amazing to get a senior Aikido practitioner to the ground thats for sure. So I find it hard to think of any well established art as incomplete to be honest. But at the same time I do agree with:



Kamon Guy said:


> The answers most chunners give when faced with the ground game scenario is 'Id never get taken to the ground'. This isnt good enough.
> 
> Some chunners need to dip their toes in the pool and see whats out there.



Ive heard the tried and true "id never get taken to the ground" many times, and when I was younger I believed it. To be fair I have personally never been taken to the ground in a street fight, nor have I seen many end up there (despite many assurances by people that "every fight ends up on the ground"). However I do train in BJJ, because I dont just want to be good at takedown defense and striking, I want a good ground game. Does Chun have a good ground game? Not really. Its strength is close quarter standup. But that doesnt mean that because its weakness could be considered ground work that the art is incomplete, its just not a specialized ground art. Chi Sau and one inch power work great on the ground, but not as well as a dedicated grappling art like BJJ. And vice versa, just because BJJ doesnt have a whole bunch of strikes doesnt make it incomplete imo, it just means its a specialized ground art.

Agreed that Chunners should dip there toes, but I would say the same for BJJ'ers or Aikido practitioners etc. I personally train one weapon art, one standup art and one ground art, but that certainly doesnt mean any of them are incomplete and NEED the others, its just because I wanna be a machine and take the elements from each arts strengths.


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## geezer (Aug 24, 2010)

Vajramusti said:


> I am nota TWC person and have no comment on the Cheung-Boztepe thing
> which was WT/TWC affair.Can't generalize for all based on that incident.
> joy chaudhuri



An interesting outcome of that well known fight from twenty-some-odd years ago was that Emin Boztepe continued to work and develop some very good techniques to deal with grapplers and to apply his "Wing Tzun" more efficiently and effectively on the ground. In other words, his ultimate concern wasn't how well he bested the other guy, but how to to improve from there. 

Regarding "completeness", I don't think Wing Chun was ever intended to be all things to all people... in fact quite the opposite. It began as an attempt to eliminate the unnecessary and focus on doing a limited amount of things very very well. Still, as Joy has suggested, WC's concepts and structures can be applied to a wider range of circumstances than many of our critics realize.


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## KamonGuy2 (Aug 25, 2010)

For the several people who have replied saying that wing chun is a complete art, can I ask what you do when you go to the ground?


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## WC_lun (Aug 25, 2010)

The concepts used in Wing Chun are equally valid on the ground.  Concepts such as space, timing, structure, fajing, center line, que sau, etc.  Just because you go to the ground does not make those things invalid.  Now having said that, if you don't ever do ground work you won't know how to apply the concepts in that setting.  The concepts of Wing Chun are indeed those of a complete art...  though most people do not train completely.


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## KamonGuy2 (Aug 25, 2010)

WC_lun said:


> The concepts used in Wing Chun are equally valid on the ground. Concepts such as space, timing, structure, fajing, center line, que sau, etc. Just because you go to the ground does not make those things invalid. Now having said that, if you don't ever do ground work you won't know how to apply the concepts in that setting. The concepts of Wing Chun are indeed those of a complete art... though most people do not train completely.


 
And yet I have NEVER seen a wing chunner apply wing chun on the ground (successfully). The only person to have come clsoe was Emin Boztepe, but even he has admitted that it isnt really wing chun he uses whilst on the ground

I would disagree with your assertion that going to ground does not maek the concepts of wing chun less valid. You can certainly use some concepts of wing chun whilst on the ground (sensitivity, etc), but going to ground changes the whole position of a person and does not allow that person (on the floor) to rotate their base and use their hips in the same way they would if they were standing. It is like arguing a boxer would have no problem on the ground because he can still punch, but this isnt correct. His leverage and movement has gone out of the window (as demonstrated in numerous UFC events)

This is where I get frustrated with people who insist that wing chun is a complete system, and then go onto say that if you dont know how to deal with an individual on the ground, you obviously havent trained wing chun long enough etc. Masters such as Alan Orr and Kevin Chan are extremely talented wing chunners and yet they decided to train other arts to perfect their ground game. Why do you think that is? If wing chun truly had a ground game, dont you think they would have just learnt that instead?

I have still yet to see any evidence of wing chun working on the ground, and I have been to some of the best practitioners in the world


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## Vajramusti (Aug 25, 2010)

We operate from different data bases of what we have seen or not seen.
Commonly we depend a lot on what he have seen in videos or the net and some stuff restricted to our locations or travel.

IMO and frankly, not enough people have good wing chun structure and experience in using wing chun.
IMO when one learns to train the body in the wing chun way enough and with detailed knowledge of the forms and the related drills and applications you can save yourself on the ground enough to get back up and not play the wrestlers game. Dabbling in the wrestler's game will only get you into deeper trouble against a good grappler.

I have experimented with wing chun against decent boxers and grapplers. judokas and akidoists and so have some of my better students and my best sihings.I have had a wrestling classmate of early UFC's The Beast-Severn- and a school coach wrestling coach visit my class. My nephew was number one seeded high school heavyweight wrestler in Oklahoma till he came back to Arizona and one of my best wing chun students is an All American in Greco Roman. I have had zero coaching in competitive wrestling.If you feel the need for learning grappling, I have no problem..I hope that what you learn in wrestling lessons can match an experienced grappler whose game is wrestling.

A common problem on the net is that of generalizing about all of wing chun 
based on what one has seen.

joy chaudhuri.


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## geezer (Aug 25, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> ...This is where *I get frustrated *with people who...


 
Don't let it get to you, Kamon. I hear what you ar saying. Just remember that this is the internet and we sometimes talk past each other. For example, I see a lot in common at the conceptual level between WC and grappling. You, an experienced grappler, see less. Well which concepts are we talking about and how much is "a lot"? It's just semantics. I don't believe WC is "complete". _Nothing is._ For example, my older brother is a nationally ranked long-range marksman. He competes with a high calibre rifle with open sights ant 1,000 yards. Try chain punching, ...or grappling that! But get him in an alley way or phone booth and it's pretty hard for him to get a bead on you. Well you get my point.


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## yak sao (Aug 25, 2010)

If you are looking at it from a sport perspective, then no, WC is not complete.
But in a self defense situation where you have a matter of seconds to dispatch your attacker, then I think it's second to none.
Rather than cherry pick elements from different styles, I am a strong believer in getting the most out of my WC. No, I'll never be the grappler a BJJ man is. My long pole or knives may never reach the level of a FMAist, and I'll never be able to go 10 rounds in the ring with a golden gloves boxer. But I know my WC is competant and will get me out of more than a few scrapes I may encounter.
The idea of training a little BJJ and then trying to use it against a BJJ stylist who may be an expert grappler sounds a little absurd to me. I'm better off sticking to my guns, and if I do end up on the ground, then fight to get back up from there instead of wallowing around pretending to be something I'm not.
And yes, we do train on the ground in our WC...it would be foolish to ignore.


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## Vajramusti (Aug 25, 2010)

yak sao said:


> And yes, we do train on the ground in our WC...it would be foolish to ignore.


----------------------------------------------------------------------Yes we also train on the ground from time to time-with wing chun-it can be done
but we spend a heck of a lot more time in devloping the wing chun upright and structurally sound dynamics and minimize the chance of being on the ground.

joy chaudhuri


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## Nabakatsu (Aug 25, 2010)

I can't claim to be knowledgeable about grappling.
What I can claim is to have practiced The EBMAS ground game material to some extent. I fully intend on testing some of it out on a jj/bjj practitioner eventually. I've only drilled so many of the things we do enough to really have any hope of using them, But I feel a lot more comfortable knowing them than not. We apply yap gerk, bong gerk, as well as most of the hand structures, depending on the range of grappling we have a decent enough array of things with which to work with. It'll probably be a few years before I really get to train this to the level I feel comfortable doing some free sparring on video to show some of the concepts and applications we have. But I will do just that within a few years. Until than!


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## yak sao (Aug 25, 2010)

Vajramusti said:


> ----------------------------------------------------------------------Yes we also train on the ground from time to time-with wing chun-it can be done
> but we spend a heck of a lot more time in devloping the wing chun upright and structurally sound dynamics and minimize the chance of being on the ground.
> 
> joy chaudhuri


 

Roger that!


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## KamonGuy2 (Aug 26, 2010)

The sad thing is that a lot of fights do end up on the ground or in a position similar to it (pressed up against a car/table etc), especially if a person is caught off guard

Vajramusti, not that I am calling you a liar, but I am highly sceptical that you held your own on the floor against a talented wrestler or BJJ practitioner

Even the best wing chunners out there (including Wan Kam Leung) admit that it is important to be familiar with other concepts and arts in order to enhance your martial skill

The point is, that wing chun comes very close to being a complete system, but has a big gap in the ground game

I would love to see videos of wing chun practitioners effectively using wing chun on the ground - certainly it would silence the critics on other forums


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## dungeonworks (Aug 26, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> The sad thing is that a lot of fights do end up on the ground or in a position similar to it (pressed up against a car/table etc), especially if a person is caught off guard
> 
> Vajramusti, not that I am calling you a liar, but I am highly sceptical that you held your own on the floor against a talented wrestler or BJJ practitioner
> 
> ...



Me too.  Not any *DEMOS*, but actual rolling or fighting footage would be great.


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## mook jong man (Aug 26, 2010)

Of course it would be absolutely stupid to play the grapplers game when ending up on the ground .

 While I'm going for a figure four arm lock or a choke , the blokes girlfriend is driving a broken beer bottle into the back of my neck.

These techniques are just too slow to be of any use in a self defence situation where there is the chance of more than one attacker.

Which is why I prefer to call what I do "Ground fighting" rather than grappling , there is a big difference in my opinion.

In ground fighting I am looking for striking opportunities where ever possible , as well as gouging , pinching , biting , ripping off ears etc.
These things can also be done to you so you must stay aware of that.

Basically I am doing what ever it takes to get me up in a standing position unencumbered and mobile , ready to deal with the threat from the attackers associates.

Grappling sort of implies that both parties are quite prepared for a long drawn out battle until one defeats the other by way of a submission.

Having said that , some things from Wing Chun will work on the ground some wont , or not without modification.

For example if we are flat on our back and we are mounted  and the attacker grabs both wrists , our arms must take the full weight of the man .

Ordinarily if the force became too much we would pivot , to both relieve the pressure and place him in a position of disadvantage.
But in this situation we are flat on our back and have no room to do a conventional Wing Chun pivot . 

But what we can do is place our arms in the Lan Sau position and use the bridge and roll technique from the grappling arts to roll him off the top of us and finish him with elbows and chain punching.

So now our bridge and roll has become our pivot , not exactly the same as  Wing Chun pivot but it gets the job done.

This is just taking a few reversal techniques and control positions of the grappling arts and tweaking them with some Wing Chun , to me its not sacrilegious it just makes good sense.

You can also have the person in your guard (trapped between your legs ) with your hips up and body straight so they can't strike you ,  and at opportune times drag them in with your legs  for a quick flurry of chain punches , then unlock your legs and kick them off you with multiple stamp kicks to the head and body or grab one of their arms and do a scissor leg sweep so that you end up on top of them.

The mount , bridge and roll , side control , sweeps etc
The point is these are tried and true techniques of the grappling arts , and to have an awareness of and working knowledge of these control positions does not mean you are playing into the grapplers game. 

 It just means that by using these control positions I can avoid common pitfalls and bring my striking to bear from a stronger position rather than flopping around on the ground like a fish out of water .

 All I am doing is  taking these elements and infusing them with Wing Chun so that they better fit the needs of self defence.


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## Vajramusti (Aug 26, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> Vajramusti, not that I am calling you a liar, but I am highly sceptical that you held your own on the floor against a talented wrestler or BJJ practitioner
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> It's ok- you can believe what you will.I don't play the wrestler's game or the bjj game-I play mine.
> 
> joy chaudhuri


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## KamonGuy2 (Aug 26, 2010)

Vajramusti said:


> Kamon Guy said:
> 
> 
> > Vajramusti, not that I am calling you a liar, but I am highly sceptical that you held your own on the floor against a talented wrestler or BJJ practitioner
> ...


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## MJS (Aug 26, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> And yet I have NEVER seen a wing chunner apply wing chun on the ground (successfully). The only person to have come clsoe was Emin Boztepe, but even he has admitted that it isnt really wing chun he uses whilst on the ground
> 
> I would disagree with your assertion that going to ground does not maek the concepts of wing chun less valid. You can certainly use some concepts of wing chun whilst on the ground (sensitivity, etc), but going to ground changes the whole position of a person and does not allow that person (on the floor) to rotate their base and use their hips in the same way they would if they were standing. It is like arguing a boxer would have no problem on the ground because he can still punch, but this isnt correct. His leverage and movement has gone out of the window (as demonstrated in numerous UFC events)
> 
> ...


 
I dont do WC, however, I have had this same discussion countless times with fellow Kenpoists, who insist that Kenpo can be done on the ground.  Yes, just like certain WC things, certain Kenpo things can be done, but as you said, the ground will change things.

Another member mentioned playing the grapplers game.  Id like to comment on that.  Yes, I've heard this before from Kenpo people.  I've talked alot about the ground and will repeat what I've said....I dont encourage or advocate playing their game.  If I end up there, no, I'm not going to intentionally look for an armlock, leg lock, etc., and turn it into a 30min UFC match.  However, I do advocate that people should have some basic ground knowledge.  Enough to escape/survive, long enough to get back to my feet.  IMO, nothing in Kenpo is going to help me with that, thus the reason why I train on the ground with BJJ.  

Now, if an arm presented itself to me, and I could go for some lock and/or break, if it meant me surviving, yeah, sure I'll take it, but to prolong my stay on the ground for the sole sake of an armlock....thats crazy, IMO.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 26, 2010)

I have little experience in Wing Chun, I have trained briefly with 2 different Sifus, one a student of Ip Ching the other a student of Augustine Fong and I saw something in the Augustine Fong lineage that would not likely be called ground fighting but it would make it damn hard to take things to the ground if the Wing Chun practitioner went down first. It was a kicking from the ground.

Now before this is called silly and worthless I will say I once sparred a Southern Mantis practitioner (who beat the heck out of me) that was trained this way and you are hard pressed to get close to him if he falls. The flurry of surprisingly powerful kicks and punches that come at you from the ground gives you few options, stand there a block all day, dive in and take a beating or backup and then he pops up like a weeble and continues with the pummeling. I tried 1 and 3 

Yes a fight can go to the ground, I have been in a few, but not all and I do not believe anywhere near as many as the hard to nail down statistics on the topic says.

But to be honest the fights I was in that went to the ground I took there for purposes of Qinna and restraint and there was no actual fighting once it got the ground. IMO, in that job (hospital security - with mental health and detox units) the ground was a great place to be since I could control it with body weight and qinna and not get sued for throwing punches and kicks.

As to Wing Chun being Complete it is as complete as Wing Chun is supposed to be. 

And you should not forget you have to get in close for ground work and if the Wing Chun person is a good fighter expect to get hit a lot... and hard trying to get there.


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## hunt1 (Aug 26, 2010)

I'll direct this at kamon Guy because Sam Kwok was the first person to tell me to start teaching so I know we have some things in common.

 First I think folks should learn ground fighting from a someone that really knows the stuff if they want to be well rounded. This leaves out most wing chun teachers me included. Besides with the job BJJ and other submission grappling forms like Sambo and catch have done why reinvent the wheel.

 However the Wing Chun concepts and mechanics I learned and teach are completely consistent with grappling and there fore lend themselves to use on the ground.

 Now for a true story, I have always told my students that to really learn WC you must go out and find non wing chun folks to spar and train with. 8 or so years ago a student of mine had a chance to try his wing chun at the Militich school. certainly at the time one of the top MMA/grappling schools in the world.

 After telling him that they had never seen any WC person that could make it in the cage they told him they didn't want him to get hurt with striking so first he had to try just grappling with out any striking at all. He agreed.

 Here's the thing he had never wrestled or grappled a day in his life other than for about 3 or 4 hours in class when I had taught him how to be comfortable on the ground with wing chun.  He faced 5 different people . The first 4 could not take him down at all. The last was an NCAA div 1 champ finalist. He took him down but could not submit him during the time allowed.

 Afterwords when he and the wrestler talked the wrestler was surprised to learn that they both shared the same understanding and use of the body. Use of hips spine and chest. 
 There lies both the secret and the problem with those that try to use wing chun from the ground.  Most folks haven't been taught how to use the hips spine chest shoulders. I know the complete usage is not taught by Sam or the Ip brothers or at least it wasn't up to the last time i saw Sam 8 years ago. Also there are several methods of chi sao training that help  train grappling skills that are also not widely practiced. For example in addition to the common luksau/poon sau platform. I also teach several other forms of chi sau such as Huen sau, Noi Lim /Oi Lim, elbow/shoulder and 2 other types.
 While these other forms were designed to teach the standing grappling aspects of wing chun the skills are used the same standing or lying on your back etc.

 My point being that if you have the full body mechanics and have the full set of standing skills including chest to chest then you can make the transition to ground fighting with wing chun. However again I will say to be truly competent on the ground you should train with groundd fighters not wing chun folks that dabble.


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## dungeonworks (Aug 26, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Of course it would be absolutely stupid to play the grapplers game when ending up on the ground .
> 
> While I'm going for a figure four arm lock or a choke , the blokes girlfriend is driving a broken beer bottle into the back of my neck.
> 
> ...



....and that my friend is what I have been saying here for a long time now but is somehow insulting to some.  It is essential to know what someone is likely to use on you or where they want to be to stage their attack on and from the ground you you can drill your sensitivity from these position and make your Wing Chun automatic on the ground as well.  Good post MJM.

Great way to put it.


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## dungeonworks (Aug 26, 2010)

MJS said:


> I dont do WC, however, I have had this same discussion countless times with fellow Kenpoists, who insist that Kenpo can be done on the ground.  Yes, just like certain WC things, certain Kenpo things can be done, but as you said, the ground will change things.
> 
> Another member mentioned playing the grapplers game.  Id like to comment on that.  Yes, I've heard this before from Kenpo people.  I've talked alot about the ground and will repeat what I've said....I dont encourage or advocate playing their game.  If I end up there, no, I'm not going to intentionally look for an armlock, leg lock, etc., and turn it into a 30min UFC match.  However, I do advocate that people should have some basic ground knowledge.  Enough to escape/survive, long enough to get back to my feet.  IMO, nothing in Kenpo is going to help me with that, thus the reason why I train on the ground with BJJ.
> 
> Now, if an arm presented itself to me, and I could go for some lock and/or break, if it meant me surviving, yeah, sure I'll take it, but to prolong my stay on the ground for the sole sake of an armlock....thats crazy, IMO.




Hey MJS, if an armbar or lock of ANY TYPE presents itself on the street, I would take it....and turn it into a BREAK! 

Ignoring the ground game completely brings one back twenty years in their training....to the days of the one punch kill mentality that was prevalent in Karate, TKD, TSD....and maybe other stand up arts.  I too like the ground training for escapes, positional dominance, and stand up skills.  Going for submissions is fun too and GREAT EXERCISE.  It is a fun and physically challenging game of "Man Chess"! LOL


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## mook jong man (Aug 27, 2010)

dungeonworks said:


> Hey MJS, if an armbar or lock of ANY TYPE presents itself on the street, I would take it....and turn it into a BREAK!
> 
> Ignoring the ground game completely brings one back twenty years in their training....to the days of the one punch kill mentality that was prevalent in Karate, TKD, TSD....and maybe other stand up arts. I too like the ground training for escapes, positional dominance, and stand up skills. Going for submissions is fun too and GREAT EXERCISE. It is a fun and physically challenging game of "Man Chess"! LOL


 
Yeah it is great fun and very demanding energy wise which is another reason you don't want to be down there too long , it just takes too damn much out of you.

A couple of other things I like to do to raise the level of desperation and get out of the comfort zone is where.

One person has to escape a nominated bad position and be up on their feet in a certain time frame before the timer goes off.
Grappling where one person has a knife , starting off sitting back to back.
Grappling where one person has a stick , starting off sitting back to back.
Starting the fight from a very bad position like flat on your belly , or from a RNC.
Practicing keeping your feet in the hips and using your shin and hip movement as they  try to pass your guard and hit you.
Survival mode - Where the one mounted has head gear on , and the other has boxing gloves on. We start from the premise that we haven't been able to off balance the opponent or make him post.

 So he starts raining punches down upon us , we must " weather the storm so to speak " as we come up with an appropriate cover bury our head  and grab his waist and slam him down into the floor. From where we can apply some things without being as vulnerable to the  strikes.

 As we are coming up for the waist grab we like to use a thing called the " Universal Shield " that I learned from my knife instructor Mr Ray Floro (thanks Ray).

 Its very similar to a Lan Sau but one arm is horizontal and the other is braced behind it diagonally with the shoulders shrugged and chin tucked down .

 Its strong structurally and gives a great level of protection all around the head . We usually use it for knife defence work but it all so works fantastically well against unarmed strikes too. 

We don't do this stuff as often as we should because my guys do love their Wing Chun , but when we do it we really get into it and go hard.


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## KamonGuy2 (Aug 27, 2010)

We seem to be going round in circles with no one really offering any new evidence to the contrary. The point is that if wing chun could handle itself adequately on the ground, you would hear of MMA guys training in it

People have mentioned Sam Kwok, but even he had a (famous) seminar with Carlos Gracie (its on youtube somewhere), emphasising the importance of ground work and clinching

There are certainly methods you can try on the floor from your wing chun training (Xue Sheng mentioned the example of kicking, which is effective up to a certain point), but generally, wing chun has no strategy for ground fighting

I work ground stuff all the time, and it is a combination of wing chun principles and BJJ techniques

Hunt1 gave a freat example of how wing chun faired in a stand up MMA game, which is good, but not really what I was talking about. My brother fended off most of the BJJ gusy when he went to America because his body mechanics and sensitivity allowed him to negotiate around their takedown attempts. Yet he still has been on the floor in fights (overpowered by two guys etc).

All I would advise, is those chunners who have never stepped outside of a wing chun school - go look around. Test your wing chun (im not advocating dong saos!). If it works against other martial artists, the good for you, but I think you will be surprised


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## mograph (Aug 27, 2010)

Tell me if I'm wrong, but in an MMA context, the goal is to stay on the ground and get a submission from your opponent if you can, because you are _required_ to engage. In "the street", the goal is to _disengage_ from your opponent and a) get the heck out of there or b) get back to a standup fight. 

So a successful ground game to a non-MMA fighter would be the one where he can _escape_, not force a submission. Right?

So comparing the MMA and WC would be problematic. If a non-MMA fighter wants to be prepared for ground work, at least he should train to disengage, right?


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## Tez3 (Aug 27, 2010)

mograph said:


> Tell me if I'm wrong, but in an MMA context, the goal is to stay on the ground and get a submission from your opponent if you can, because you are _required_ to engage. In "the street", the goal is to _disengage_ from your opponent and a) get the heck out of there or b) get back to a standup fight.
> 
> So a successful ground game to a non-MMA fighter would be the one where he can _escape_, not force a submission. Right?
> 
> So comparing the MMA and WC would be problematic. If a non-MMA fighter wants to be prepared for ground work, at least he should train to disengage, right?


 

No, the goal in MMA is to win the contest, not to stay on the ground. To win you play to your strengths and your opponents weaknesses, if the guys good on the ground you keep it standing, if he's good standing you try to take him down. A good many MMA fights don't spend long on the floor and the ability to get standing again quickly is a good one to train for. Most MMA fights are equal amonts of floor work with stand up, too many people think that it's stand up then goes to the floor where it stays. Escapes are very important to MMA fighters, we spend a lot of time drilling them.


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## jks9199 (Aug 27, 2010)

mograph said:


> Tell me if I'm wrong, but in an MMA context, the goal is to stay on the ground and get a submission from your opponent if you can, because you are _required_ to engage. In "the street", the goal is to _disengage_ from your opponent and a) get the heck out of there or b) get back to a standup fight.
> 
> So a successful ground game to a non-MMA fighter would be the one where he can _escape_, not force a submission. Right?
> 
> So comparing the MMA and WC would be problematic. If a non-MMA fighter wants to be prepared for ground work, at least he should train to disengage, right?


There are basically three ways to win in MMA: submission, knockout (or TKO or other ref stoppage), or points.  As Tez says - you play to your strengths.  If I'm going to play the MMA game -- I'm going to stay with stand up and any ground work would be to escape and get back to my feet. Someone from a heavy BJJ or wrestling background might instead use stand up to close in and take an opponent down.  If I'm on the street -- I don't want to be on the ground long, either unless I have a purpose (like cuffing someone).  Too much can happen there.


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## Tez3 (Aug 27, 2010)

There's rules in MMA to make sure people don't get hurt but there's no rules on how you want to fight. I've seen a lot of MMA fights where no one went to the floor as well as some that went to the floor and stayed there. It's part of the fun having to work out your tactics as you go along, that too may be a part of why MMA is good for practising for SD, the fact you have to think on your feet as it were. You may know what your opponents strengths and weaknesses and how you want the fight to go but you have to be prepared for surprises.


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## mograph (Aug 27, 2010)

Hmm ... interesting. Thanks!


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## Vajramusti (Aug 27, 2010)

Internet discussions on wing chun on the net often and very easily strays into what is really a mma discussion. Bits of wing chun plus bjj imo fwiw does not really equally wing chun.Though wing chun schools abound some instructors have arrested development of their wing chun.
In following a good wing chun route if the idea of body unity is developed rather than depending on fixed techniques one can deal with a horizontal(better) or horizontal(posture)-though it's not preferable in most cases   to deliberately go to the ground.If the body is developed asa cohesive unit lots of alternatives in uses of joints become possible
But incomplete wing chun training and the allure of watching ufc etc- makes it understandable as to why  making wing chun into a weak form of mma
is very much the thrust of many discussions.
Many martial arts schools offer a "mixed" curriculum for purposes of marketing- diversification.

joy chaudhuri


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## MJS (Aug 27, 2010)

dungeonworks said:


> Hey MJS, if an armbar or lock of ANY TYPE presents itself on the street, I would take it....and turn it into a BREAK!


 
Of course. 



> Ignoring the ground game completely brings one back twenty years in their training....to the days of the one punch kill mentality that was prevalent in Karate, TKD, TSD....and maybe other stand up arts. I too like the ground training for escapes, positional dominance, and stand up skills. Going for submissions is fun too and GREAT EXERCISE. It is a fun and physically challenging game of "Man Chess"! LOL


 
Agreed.  I do enjoy rolling during a class or workout, outside of class, going for subs, etc.


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## MJS (Aug 27, 2010)

mograph said:


> Tell me if I'm wrong, but in an MMA context, the goal is to stay on the ground and get a submission from your opponent if you can, because you are _required_ to engage. In "the street", the goal is to _disengage_ from your opponent and a) get the heck out of there or b) get back to a standup fight.
> 
> So a successful ground game to a non-MMA fighter would be the one where he can _escape_, not force a submission. Right?
> 
> So comparing the MMA and WC would be problematic. If a non-MMA fighter wants to be prepared for ground work, at least he should train to disengage, right?


 
Alot has changed since the early UFC events.  Back in the day, yeah, you'd see Rocye spend the entire time on the mat, looking for a choke.  Today, we see alot more standup, and G&P.  This isn't to say that subs. dont happen, but the fighters of today are much more adept than past fighters.  

As I said, for myself, no, I'm not going to intentionally look for a sub, but yeah, if something presents itself, and I can take advantage of a choke or break, then yes, I'd take it.  Again, that is not my main goal, but why pass up a gift? 

IMO, the ground arts to provide the standup fighter with a safe, solid way of getting back up.  I'll use an example that I use often....Mark Coleman vs. Maurice Smith.  Smith trained enough grappling with Frank Shamrock to survive Colemans ground attacks, which IMO, were limited, because it appeared at the time, that he didn't know that many subs, other than G&P.  Mo was able to get back up and ended up finishing with a kick that KOd Mark.


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