# Effective Technique



## tkdwarrior (Dec 25, 2014)

Hello everybody first of I just want to greet everybody here a Merry Christmas

On topic, I have been studying the effectiveness of a throat punch or strike.

I think it is a very effective technique even to those inerbriated or on some time of psychotic or mind aktering drug.

I have found that it is best that you use an open hand technique, the web between the thumb and forefinger, striking the area from the lowest part of the neck in an upward motion or straight on the adam's apple. 

Applied with sufficient force it is guranteed to temporarily incapacitate any attacker.

Anyone else has experience on this?


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 26, 2014)

tkdwarrior said:


> Hello everybody first of I just want to greet everybody here a Merry Christmas
> 
> On topic, I have been studying the effectiveness of a throat punch or strike.
> 
> ...


Why not use the Touch of Death? (Badump! Tsssss)


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 26, 2014)

But seriously folks, you are better off using your finger tips to simply push the guy away, not strike!!!, push. Other wise, lay off the throat or you will be teaching Karate in prison.


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## drop bear (Dec 26, 2014)

I knew a guy who was nicknamed the craw. (not the craw. The craw) for his ability to c choke people into submission. 

he had really developed that technique.

and yes cutting of a persons air does seem to penetrate amphetamine brain. But it can also kill people.


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## tkdwarrior (Dec 26, 2014)

If it were me or him, just in case, I would rather that it be the other person. 

Touch of death? How is it done?

Yes must be avoided if it can be avoided at all, but done correctly guaranteed to end most fights.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 26, 2014)

First of all I'm about to report this post, but before I do, you reach in like you are taking their pulse, and gently push. They will move like the hand of God is pushing them away.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 26, 2014)

I don't believe talk of throat strikes is a good thing for a family site; so, for the sake of your freedom, and the freedom of the readers, I gotta tell ya, throat strikes are unuseful and therfore not worth practicing.


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## tkdwarrior (Dec 26, 2014)

As you say so it must indeed be so unterribly useful and ineffective if you have the death touch


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 26, 2014)

tkdwarrior said:


> As you say so it must indeed be so unterribly useful and ineffective if you have the death touch


You are really better off forgetting these strikes. Freedom rocks!


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## tkdwarrior (Dec 26, 2014)

A yes words from a true master.


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## tkdwarrior (Dec 26, 2014)

But I still like to practice throat striking just for the hell of it, a novelty, and maybe add something from your arsenal. Tickle and pinch techniques. That is as they say awesomeness.


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## drop bear (Dec 26, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> You are really better off forgetting these strikes. Freedom rocks!



in fact forget punching at all. Pretty much.

one punch can kill.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 26, 2014)

drop bear said:


> in fact forget punching at all. Pretty much.
> 
> one punch can kill.


It sounds to me like you are trying to hurt your hand.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 26, 2014)

Lets just say if you use the technique described in the OP and you end up in court for any reason connected with the altercation you have been you most likely will be charged with using a deadly technique and/or attempted murder. 
As for practicing such a technique if you slip up and hit to had the above is also possible even if your in a school/club when you do it, you and your instructor can be charged and the school can be held responsible for any and all court,hospital, recovery bills as well as funeral coasts if necessary. The instructor could also be charged for allowing such a deadly technique to take place in his school as the power and damage can not be truly be supervised in a safe manner.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 26, 2014)

tkdwarrior said:


> Anyone else has experience on this?


Sometime the sparring rule-set can be set more safely. Instead of punching on the face and knock your opponent down, if your palm can hold on his throat, it's as good as a punch on his face.

The "封 (Feng) - neck hold" can be an excellent "contact point" used in grappling. When you push your opponent's

- right shoulder, he can spin to his right,
- left shoulder, he can spin to his left,
- neck, he can'ts spin at all.

If your hand can hold on your opponent's neck, in order to take him down, all you need is to add your leg into it.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 26, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> Lets just say if you use the technique described in the OP and you end up in court for any reason connected with the altercation you have been you most likely will be charged with using a deadly technique and/or attempted murder.
> As for practicing such a technique if you slip up and hit to had the above is also possible even if your in a school/club when you do it, you and your instructor can be charged and the school can be held responsible for any and all court,hospital, recovery bills as well as funeral coasts if necessary. The instructor could also be charged for allowing such a deadly technique to take place in his school as the power and damage can not be truly be supervised in a safe manner.


Exactly. In fact, I think I have said too much, already. The first rule about being The Touch Of Death is that you don't talk about the touch of death.


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## tkdwarrior (Dec 26, 2014)

Oh touch of death please do not strain yourself too much.


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## Transk53 (Dec 26, 2014)

tkdwarrior said:


> Hello everybody first of I just want to greet everybody here a Merry Christmas
> 
> On topic, I have been studying the effectiveness of a throat punch or strike.
> 
> ...



No, pretty much a right cross or an elbow suffices. In terms of a hold, jab you're fingers into the upper jaw and hold. Back of the jaw with back of the head Leverage, IE the hold and pivot.


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## Transk53 (Dec 26, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> Exactly. In fact, I think I have said too much, already. The first rule about being The Touch Of Death is that you don't talk about the touch of death.



No of course not, I have a Federation Phased Rifle


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## tkdwarrior (Dec 26, 2014)

I am overwhelmed at all your techniques but I guess I have to keep my jedi mind control abilities a secret or else all those women will know why they fell for me


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## Transk53 (Dec 26, 2014)

tkdwarrior said:


> I am overwhelmed at all your techniques but I guess I have to keep my jedi mind control abilities a secret or else all those women will know why they fell for me



What, get out of here, you saying you cannot perform a "Jedi mind trick" Oh dear


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## tkdwarrior (Dec 26, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> What, get out of here, you saying you cannot perform a "Jedi mind trick" Oh dear


No. I just have to keep it a secret

The head crank technique that you described is a good one. As the saying goes where he head goes the body follows


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## Transk53 (Dec 26, 2014)

tkdwarrior said:


> No. I just have to keep it a secret
> 
> The head crank technique that you described is a good one. As the saying goes where he head goes the body follows



Head Crank, I just know it the "jaw breaker" No I have not BTW, just theory!


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## Elbowgrease (Dec 26, 2014)

It's most likely going to get you in trouble if you do it, but hitting the throat does work if you can pull it off. I like using the thumb, index and middle finger and latching on just about as high as you can get on the throat. Right around the windpipe (trachea? whatever.). If you can get behind or beside the opponent and get one hand over the top of the head and latch onto the upper part of the eye socket at the same time, they are definitely not going to like it. You've really got to have some fast hands to pull it off. Ever try snatching peas out of boiling hot water?


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 26, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> What, get out of here, you saying you cannot perform a "Jedi mind trick" Oh dear


I am Mr. Jedi mind trick, but at nine an 1/2 weeks on the dot, the force mocks me.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 26, 2014)

Elbowgrease said:


> It's most likely going to get you in trouble if you do it, but hitting the throat does work if you can pull it off. I like using the thumb, index and middle finger and latching on just about as high as you can get on the throat. Right around the windpipe (trachea? whatever.). If you can get behind or beside the opponent and get one hand over the top of the head and latch onto the upper part of the eye socket at the same time, they are definitely not going to like it. You've really got to have some fast hands to pull it off. Ever try snatching peas out of boiling hot water?


Leave no witnesses. LOL


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## Transk53 (Dec 26, 2014)

Elbowgrease said:


> It's most likely going to get you in trouble if you do it, but hitting the throat does work if you can pull it off. I like using the thumb, index and middle finger and latching on just about as high as you can get on the throat. Right around the windpipe (trachea? whatever.). If you can get behind or beside the opponent and get one hand over the top of the head and latch onto the upper part of the eye socket at the same time, they are definitely not going to like it. You've really got to have some fast hands to pull it off. Ever try snatching peas out of boiling hot water?



No not really. Thumbs under the chin, the fingers going down to towards the jaw join. Add pressure with a elbow clamp, just push for resistance. Again just theory here, a sane lunatic I am


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## Elbowgrease (Dec 26, 2014)

I'm really not recommending it. Just saying, striking the throat (or the eyes, spine, knees...) is probably going to be effective. If you can pull it off. If you think it's really necessary to go that far. If you can manage to grab onto it and you can do so without immediately causing irreparable damage, the conversation might  start moving in your favour. But you'll also only have one hand free then, and it's getting into some pretty nasty business once you move from bruising to crippling.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 26, 2014)

Elbowgrease said:


> I'm really not recommending it. Just saying, striking the throat (or the eyes, spine, knees...) is probably going to be effective. If you can pull it off. If you think it's really necessary to go that far. If you can manage to grab onto it and you can do so without immediately causing irreparable damage, the conversation might  start moving in your favour. But you'll also only have one hand free then, and it's getting into some pretty nasty business once you move from bruising to crippling.


I prefer to spend my time practicing, "The rule of thumb". That is where you watch and wait, like a jungle cat, for your opponent to go long with their arm; then, you simply smack the elbow in the direction opposite their thumb, whilst pulling the arm longer with the other hand. They get to live; you broke their arm; everyone is happy!


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## Transk53 (Dec 26, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> I prefer to spend my time practicing, "The rule of thumb". That is where you watch and wait, like a jungle cat, for your opponent to go long with their arm; then, you simply smack the elbow in the direction opposite their thumb, whilst pulling the arm longer with the other hand. They get to live; you broke their arm; everyone is happy!



Interesting!


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## tkdwarrior (Dec 26, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> I prefer to spend my time practicing, "The rule of thumb". That is where you watch and wait, like a jungle cat, for your opponent to go long with their arm; then, you simply smack the elbow in the direction opposite their thumb, whilst pulling the arm longer with the other hand. They get to live; you broke their arm; everyone is happy!


Ah the wisdom of the master. I did this once but did not break the arm, it was a crazy street lady who was harrassing our students in a parade. I had to apply the arm bar on her to stop her from harrasing and hurting our students. Not too proud of it though but it had to be done. Works well too


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## Transk53 (Dec 26, 2014)

Elbowgrease said:


> I'm really not recommending it. Just saying, striking the throat (or the eyes, spine, knees...) is probably going to be effective. If you can pull it off. If you think it's really necessary to go that far. If you can manage to grab onto it and you can do so without immediately causing irreparable damage, the conversation might  start moving in your favour. But you'll also only have one hand free then, and it's getting into some pretty nasty business once you move from bruising to crippling.



Yes I know, as l said, theory


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## tkdwarrior (Dec 26, 2014)

Elbowgrease said:


> I'm really not recommending it. Just saying, striking the throat (or the eyes, spine, knees...) is probably going to be effective. If you can pull it off. If you think it's really necessary to go that far. If you can manage to grab onto it and you can do so without immediately causing irreparable damage, the conversation might  start moving in your favour. But you'll also only have one hand free then, and it's getting into some pretty nasty business once you move from bruising to crippling.


Of course intended for a life or death situation but I am coming from a point of view that if you hurt me or my family and I am not doing anything to you, then be prepared for the consequences.


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## Transk53 (Dec 26, 2014)

tkdwarrior said:


> Of course intended for a life or death situation but I am coming from a point of view that if you hurt me or my family and I am not doing anything to you, then be prepared for the consequences.



Fair enough.


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## tkdwarrior (Dec 26, 2014)

I guess as to the extent of its effectiveness the throat punch or strike is indeed effective but must be used with caution.  Experimenting with this I have found it most effective in an upward motion or straight on. Learn from nature, you will see the predators immediately going for the neck for an easy kill.

The less you do the better. Long drawn out physical altercations/brawls/fist fights are for the movies.


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## tkdwarrior (Dec 26, 2014)

Thanks for all the knowledgeable replies


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## drop bear (Dec 26, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Head Crank, I just know it the "jaw breaker" No I have not BTW, just theory!


this?


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## tkdwarrior (Dec 26, 2014)

drop bear said:


> this?


I think what he is referring to is a rip the jaw of technique. Interesting technique theory but you must be very strong and skilled to apply it


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## tkdwarrior (Dec 26, 2014)

Interesting technique though and love the screaming and grunting that guy gave out while the technique was applied to him


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## Buka (Dec 26, 2014)

And it has more nutritional value than fresh corn, too.


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## tkdwarrior (Dec 27, 2014)

Buka said:


> And it has more nutritional value than fresh corn, too.


I tend to agree with you great master


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## Transk53 (Dec 27, 2014)

Elbowgrease said:


> It's most likely going to get you in trouble if you do it, but hitting the throat does work if you can pull it off. I like using the thumb, index and middle finger and latching on just about as high as you can get on the throat. Right around the windpipe (trachea? whatever.). If you can get behind or beside the opponent and get one hand over the top of the head and latch onto the upper part of the eye socket at the same time, they are definitely not going to like it. You've really got to have some fast hands to pull it off. Ever try snatching peas out of boiling hot water?



Er no, although I have caught flies with chop sticks. The upper part of the eye socket, did not count the eyes.


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## Transk53 (Dec 27, 2014)

drop bear said:


> this?



Blimey, that looks so simple, but quite deadly. The head movement I guess, but I was more along the lines of this. You have an opponent in front of you, in this case I'll use the obvious on the door scenario. No idea if this viable, I will make that clear. Right, bloke in front and getting quite close to the personal zone. You grab via the upper neck to the sides of the head. 

Thinking about a little more, you put the thumbs under the front of the chin, grasp the head by the ears and lock your elbows in towards the chest. You apply pressure front to back, and the sides. Plus you have fingers free to jam into the nose. As I say, no sure if that would work. Don't have too peeps around who will let me try. And bogies on the fingers would not be pleasant


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## Transk53 (Dec 27, 2014)

tkdwarrior said:


> I think what he is referring to is a rip the jaw of technique. Interesting technique theory but you must be very strong and skilled to apply it



No, but as a technique I knew about one, but not the name. Googling that, I found this Wiki page. Looks quite interesting, but maybe a few urban myths there. I have not known anybody that would use a bite for example.

EDIT.> forgot the linkage 
*Clicky*


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 27, 2014)

Elbowgrease said:


> If you can get behind or beside the opponent and get one hand over the top of the head and latch onto the upper part of the eye socket at the same time, they are definitely not going to like it. You've really got to have some fast hands to pull it off. Ever try snatching peas out of boiling hot water?


 
There is a pressure point there, but you need to keep in mind that a slight slip of the hand in that area can lead to a detached retina. Make sure you can justify blinding the guy before you try this. It might be kind of difficult to explain in court.


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## tkdwarrior (Dec 27, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> No, but as a technique I knew about one, but not the name. Googling that, I found this Wiki page. Looks quite interesting, but maybe a few urban myths there. I have not known anybody that would use a bite for example.
> 
> EDIT.> forgot the linkage
> *Clicky*


Yeah exactly my thoughts in ending a fight as soon as possible.


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## drop bear (Dec 27, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Blimey, that looks so simple, but quite deadly. The head movement I guess, but I was more along the lines of this. You have an opponent in front of you, in this case I'll use the obvious on the door scenario. No idea if this viable, I will make that clear. Right, bloke in front and getting quite close to the personal zone. You grab via the upper neck to the sides of the head.
> 
> Thinking about a little more, you put the thumbs under the front of the chin, grasp the head by the ears and lock your elbows in towards the chest. You apply pressure front to back, and the sides. Plus you have fingers free to jam into the nose. As I say, no sure if that would work. Don't have too peeps around who will let me try. And bogies on the fingers would not be pleasant



i have done it. It works ok.

i wasn't going yarghhhhhhh  garhhhhhhhh At the time though.

and i don't grab the chin i grab the middle of the face.


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## drop bear (Dec 27, 2014)

Sorry i have done your under the chin thumb thing without the nose. And that works ok as. Well.


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## Transk53 (Dec 27, 2014)

@drop bear. Cool, I should really start writing this stuff down lol. Guess you have to work through this kind of stuff.


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## Buka (Dec 27, 2014)

drop bear said:


> this?



You have to play close attention to the sound/kiai he's making. I figure that guy is using the Close Encounters of the Third Kind technique - (first thirty seconds of clip)






He's hitting him with all kinds of Semi-Quavers of sound. The man had _NO_ chance.

What he's attempting to do is called bulldogging. Jaw Control in military or Law Enforcement.......but Semi-Quavers in that clip. 

That stuff will make you quake in your boots.


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## tkdwarrior (Dec 31, 2014)

The person on the clip is master sang h lee. I have some of his training materials when vhs was in vogue. Very good to deal with.


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## Shai Hulud (Jan 1, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Why not use the Touch of Death? (Badump! Tsssss)


Dim Mak?


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## tkdwarrior (Jan 1, 2015)

Here is an example of a technique that is romanticized but in actuality is one used with a force multiplier. Wherein a poison that acts topically is applied with a supposed martial art technique.

In theory, it may be possible to disrupt the bodies nervous system by activating certain pressure points. So far I have only heard of legends or stories of the dim mak but no actual forensic case study. Now I could be wrong. If there is someome with first hand knowledge kindly chime in


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## Transk53 (Jan 1, 2015)

tkdwarrior said:


> Here is an example of a technique that is romanticized but in actuality is one used with a force multiplier. Wherein a poison that acts topically is applied with a supposed martial art technique.
> 
> In theory, it may be possible to disrupt the bodies nervous system by activating certain pressure points. So far I have only heard of legends or stories of the dim mak but no actual forensic case study. Now I could be wrong. If there is someome with first hand knowledge kindly chime in



Only seen that a Donny Yen movie. Vegus? nerve got wacked and then good night Vienna.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 1, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Only seen that a Donny Yen movie. Vegus? nerve got wacked and then good night Vienna.



You've never seen anybody dropped by a shot to the solar plexus? That's what you're doing there; stimulating the vagus nerve, which can cause (amoung other things) the diaphragm to spasm, the stomach to spasm and the heart rate and blood pressure to drop. These responses cause you to (in order) get the wind knocked out of you, puke, and pass out.
Even clenching the abdominal muscles can stimulate the vagus. There's a not at all uncommon thing called bathroom syncope. It's people passing out because they're straining to poop, which stimulates the vagus, and down they go.
Pressure points work. As with most things, they don't work as they're portrayed in the movies, but they do work.


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## Transk53 (Jan 1, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> *You've never seen anybody dropped by a shot to the solar plexus?* That's what you're doing there; stimulating the vagus nerve, which can cause (amoung other things) the diaphragm to spasm, the stomach to spasm and the heart rate and blood pressure to drop. These responses cause you to (in order) get the wind knocked out of you, puke, and pass out.
> Even clenching the abdominal muscles can stimulate the vagus. There's a not at all uncommon thing called bathroom syncope. It's people passing out because they're straining to poop, which stimulates the vagus, and down they go.
> Pressure points work. As with most things, they don't work as they're portrayed in the movies, but they do work.



I'm sure I must, but genuinely don't remember one instance at the moment. My knowledge on the vagus nerve is only from what I saw in a movie. Thanks for the info.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 1, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> Dim Mak?


De' Mack Truck!


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## Transk53 (Jan 1, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> De' Mack Truck!



Lol.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 1, 2015)

Also known in some Countries as the, "Lori Load".


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 1, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Also known in some Countries as the, "Lori Load".



Hey, I like Lori... she's nice.


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## Transk53 (Jan 1, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Also known in some Countries as the, "Lori Load".



Lori Mack?


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 1, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Lori Mack?


McLori


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## tkdwarrior (Jan 1, 2015)

A solar plexus strike if you get to hit that area in an ongoing fight will definitely work. But you do not dim mak it, ie touch, you strike it as hard as you can.


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## Buka (Jan 2, 2015)

Anyone like liver shots? A thing of beauty, they are.

Unless you get caught with one.


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## Transk53 (Jan 2, 2015)

Buka said:


> Anyone like liver shots? A thing of beauty, they are.
> 
> Unless you get caught with one.



No, they are the invention if Satan


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## Tez3 (Jan 2, 2015)

Buka said:


> Anyone like liver shots? A thing of beauty, they are.
> 
> Unless you get caught with one.




Hell yes and yes again! I would rather be KO'd than take a liver shot.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 2, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Hell yes and yes again! I would rather be KO'd than take a liver shot.


I know my liver hates when I do shots


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## tkdwarrior (Jan 3, 2015)

I think I saw two throat punches there.


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## tkdwarrior (Jan 3, 2015)

Interesting argument for the open palm technique.


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## Transk53 (Jan 3, 2015)

Will have to try an watch on a PC. My mobile just keeps freezing, or the vid


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## Paul_D (Jan 3, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I don't believe talk of throat strikes is a good thing for a family site; so, for the sake of your freedom, and the freedom of the readers, I gotta tell ya, throat strikes are unuseful and therfore not worth practicing.


Attacking the most vulnerable part of the body is unuseful?  I would disagree.  I would say they are highly useful, particularity for smaller people and/or ladies against much larger/stronger opponents. 

You keep talking about them leading to you begin imprisoned.  But you have to remember that not everyone is subject to the same self defence laws that you are subject to in your area.  Perhaps where you live there is legislation to that effect, but not not were I live.  There is nothing in UK SD law that would make me hesitate for a second in using them if I felt they were necessary.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 3, 2015)

Paul_D said:


> Attacking the most vulnerable part of the body is unuseful?  I would disagree.  I would say they are highly useful, particularity for smaller people and/or ladies against much larger/stronger opponents.
> 
> You keep talking about them leading to you begin imprisoned.  But you have to remember that not everyone is subject to the same self defence laws that you are subject to in your area.  Perhaps where you live there is legislation to that effect, but not not were I live.  There is nothing in UK SD law that would make me hesitate for a second in using them if I felt they were necessary.


Then, by all means, Kill away.  In America, any move you can't practice in the studio or on your friends. is unuseful; because YOU CAN'T PRACTICE IT!


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## Tez3 (Jan 3, 2015)

Paul_D said:


> Attacking the most vulnerable part of the body is unuseful?  I would disagree.  I would say they are highly useful, particularity for smaller people and/or ladies against much larger/stronger opponents.
> 
> You keep talking about them leading to you begin imprisoned.  But you have to remember that not everyone is subject to the same self defence laws that you are subject to in your area.  Perhaps where you live there is legislation to that effect, but not not were I live.  *There is nothing in UK SD law that would make me hesitate for a second in using them if I felt they were necessary*.



Absolutely correct. I also believe that one can practise _any _strike, it would take a sad lack of imagination not to be able to practise even the 'worse' strike. I can easily practise a throat strike on any standing/hanging bag as well as a 'Bob' which is very good for practising things like this.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 3, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Absolutely correct. I also believe that one can practise _any _strike, it would take a sad lack of imagination not to be able to practise even the 'worse' strike. I can easily practise a throat strike on any standing/hanging bag as well as a 'Bob' which is very good for practising things like this.


Practicing Hail Marys on a Bob is empowering; so, fine. LOL


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## Tez3 (Jan 3, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Practicing Hail Marys on a Bob is empowering; so, fine. LOL



I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I don't know what a Hail Mary is nor do I find anything 'empowering' about a Bob.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 3, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I don't know what a Hail Mary is nor do I find anything 'empowering' about a Bob.


Then you should throw it away. They fall down all the time anyway.


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## Tez3 (Jan 3, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Then you should throw it away. They fall down all the time anyway.



 I'm really not sure what page you are on quite honestly as it seems your posts are designed to baffle.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 3, 2015)

A Hail Mary is what this whole thread is about. Its that last ditch effort to save your life, or win the fight. Watch Tyson lose to Buster Douglas, again. He was all Hail Mary at the end.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 3, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I'm really not sure what page you are on quite honestly as it seems your posts are designed to baffle.


I explained, but I am baffled that you haven't heard the term.


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## Tez3 (Jan 3, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I explained, but I am baffled that you haven't heard the term.




Why would I have heard the term?


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 3, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Why would I have heard the term?


I thought you might watch the TV, here and there, or watched a sporting event. It was forward of me.


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## Tez3 (Jan 3, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I thought you might watch the TV, here and there, or watched a sporting event. It was forward of me.




well I googled the expression, this is what I got Hail Mary pass - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

I don't watch American football, husband does but I don't and expressions from American football rarely get used in the UK so it wouldn't be on television programmes that I watch.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 3, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> well I googled the expression, this is what I got Hail Mary pass - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> 
> I don't watch American football, husband does but I don't and expressions from American football rarely get used in the UK so it wouldn't be on television programmes that I watch.


Fair enough.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 3, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Fair enough.


So I will use an expression you have heard. They are OVER THE TOP.


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## Tez3 (Jan 3, 2015)

Er ........over the top or OTT means someone has gone a bit overboard or a little too far when they done something ie Lady Gaga is over the top, I can't equate OTT with anything to do with fighting.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 3, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Er ........over the top or OTT means someone has gone a bit overboard or a little too far when they done something ie Lady Gaga is over the top, I can't equate OTT with anything to do with fighting.


People go to far when fighting all the time, Tez3. That is why they go to prison and stuff. Catsup! LOL


----------



## drop bear (Jan 3, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Why would I have heard the term?



it is a mma term.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 3, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> People go to far when fighting all the time, Tez3. That is why they go to prison and stuff. Catsup! LOL



Really? over the top doesn't mean going _too_ far just means going a little over the top


----------



## Steve (Jan 3, 2015)

drop bear said:


> it is a mma term.


I always thought Hail Mary was a reference to the NFL football pass by roger staubach and the Dallas Cowboys.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 3, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Really? over the top doesn't mean going _too_ far just means going a little over the top


Go buy a Steve Hacket CD. and you will know the true meaning, of over the top.


----------



## tkdwarrior (Jan 3, 2015)

I thought spandau ballet was over the top.....it also tends to make me think of sly stallone...


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 3, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Go buy a Steve Hacket CD. and you will know the true meaning, of over the top.




Never heard of him. The 'true' meaning of going _over the top_ comes from the First World War when the soldiers had to leave their trenches and go over the top of them to fight, usually they went straight into machine gun fire and were cut down. The war started 100 years ago last year and went on for four bloody years. _16 million_ died, _20 million_ were injured, hundreds of thousands would die in a couple of hours after going over the top.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 3, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Never heard of him. The 'true' meaning of going _over the top_ comes from the First World War when the soldiers had to leave their trenches and go over the top of them to fight, usually they went straight into machine gun fire and were cut down. The war started 100 years ago last year and went on for four bloody years. _16 million_ died, _20 million_ were injured, hundreds of thousands would die in a couple of hours after going over the top.


That, my friend, is not what it means at all.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 3, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> That, my friend, is not what it means at all.



Going Over the Top - World War I - Meaning History


----------



## drop bear (Jan 3, 2015)

Steve said:


> I always thought Hail Mary was a reference to the NFL football pass by roger staubach and the Dallas Cowboys.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



yeah used in mma. Not made up by it. I was going to add that but i cant edit.


----------



## Steve (Jan 3, 2015)

Okay.  Haven't heard that before.  It's always been a football reference for me.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 3, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I don't know what a Hail Mary is nor do I find anything 'empowering' about a Bob.



A "Hail Mary" is a desperation play. It's often used in American football.
There's, say, 4 seconds left in the game. If the team with the ball scores, they win. If not, they lose. They're, say, 70 yards from scoring.
The quarterback flings the ball as far as he can and hopes that it's caught. "Hail Mary Full Of Grace, Let Him Catch This Pass!"

And I agree, there's nothing empowering about a BOB. I like mine, but they're just  a heavy bag. With anatomical landmarks for targeting.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 3, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> A "Hail Mary" is a desperation play. It's often used in American football.
> There's, say, 4 seconds left in the game. If the team with the ball scores, they win. If not, they lose. They're, say, 70 yards from scoring.
> The quarterback flings the ball as far as he can and hopes that it's caught. "Hail Mary Full Of Grace, Let Him Catch This Pass!"
> 
> And I agree, there's nothing empowering about a BOB. I like mine, but they're just  a heavy bag. With anatomical landmarks for targeting.



it is kind of fun to punch a crash test dummy.

just sayin.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 3, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Going Over the Top - World War I - Meaning History


You had to add "Going".


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 3, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> And I agree, there's nothing empowering about a BOB. I like mine, but they're just  a heavy bag. With anatomical landmarks for targeting.


Fun but not the least bit empowering. LOL I can Live with that. Kind of a drag, you might say, then?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 3, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Going Over the Top - World War I - Meaning History


I can agree that that is what, "Going over the top", means, but that isn't what I said.  You were right the first time.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 4, 2015)

drop bear said:


> it is a mma term.



Really? I know it as a arm wrestling term. Could be wrong though.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 4, 2015)

tkdwarrior said:


> I thought spandau ballet was over the top.....it also tends to make me think of sly stallone...



I was thinking of the film too


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 4, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> You had to add "Going".



Amusing yourself or playing with yourself adds nothing to the conversation you know.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 4, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Amusing yourself or playing with yourself adds nothing to the conversation you know.


Just pointing out the obvious.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 4, 2015)

Folks, let's remember that this is a family friendly environment and keep the conversation reasonably clean, shall we?


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 4, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Folks, let's remember that this is a family friendly environment and keep the conversation reasonably clean, shall we?



? Someone is being obtuse and someone else is thinking his posts are pointless but no one is being rude. I'm lying in bed with flu and am on my tablet I don't have the will or the wit at the moment to be rude.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 4, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> ? Someone is being obtuse and someone else is thinking his posts are pointless but no one is being rude. I'm lying in bed with flu and am on my tablet I don't have the will or the wit at the moment to be rude.


All my post have a point until you challenge the very meaning of the words I use. Being over the top, and going over the top, mean different things. I didn't make the rules. I'm sorry you are sick, but this is getting sick. LOL


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 4, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> All my post have a point until you challenge the very meaning of the words I use. Being over the top, and going over the top, mean different things. I didn't make the rules. I'm sorry you are sick, but this is getting sick. LOL



As in you mean this cool? It ain't LOL


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 4, 2015)

It's not about 'challenging' the meaning of words but it is hard to understand when you use phrases that are basically unknown in other cultures, often, as has been noted before,  different words have different meanings in different countries. Often mis-spellings or the use of a word in a different way from accepted norms make understanding very difficult. I did tell you I didn't understand your posts, your explanations did little to help frankly as you were amusing yourself mistaking obtuseness for drollery. Even by saying 'this is getting sick' can be misunderstood, 'sick' is used here by younger people as meaning 'very good', us older people understand 'sick' to be something perverted.
You were, I believe, looking for a synonym for an expression equivalent to yours of 'Hail Mary', I would suggest 'last ditch' 'precipitate' 'temerarious' or perhaps even 'reckless'.  Now, let that be an end to it and we can resume the OP's intentions of discussing an 'Effective Technique'.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 4, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> It's not about 'challenging' the meaning of words but it is hard to understand when you use phrases that are basically unknown in other cultures, often, as has been noted before,  different words have different meanings in different countries. Often mis-spellings or the use of a word in a different way from accepted norms make understanding very difficult. I did tell you I didn't understand your posts, your explanations did little to help frankly as you were amusing yourself mistaking obtuseness for drollery. Even by saying 'this is getting sick' can be misunderstood, 'sick' is used here by younger people as meaning 'very good', us older people understand 'sick' to be something perverted.
> You were, I believe, looking for a synonym for an expression equivalent to yours of 'Hail Mary', I would suggest 'last ditch' 'precipitate' 'temerarious' or perhaps even 'reckless'.  Now, let that be an end to it and we can resume the OP's intentions of discussing an 'Effective Technique'.


Ok, but lets get back to the word, "Empower"; you have stated Bob's don't empower; well, of course they do. Just as the military has the new recruits shoot a man shaped targets, so that they are used to shooting at man shaped targets, when battle really occurs, a Bob also, has new martial art recruits hitting a man shaped targets, for when a fight really happens. I admit I was being snarky, but there is even truth in my snarkiness, or I wouldn't be doing it. And, before you say it, my computer is telling me, "Snarkiness" is not a word.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 4, 2015)

I said *it didn't empower ME. *You can't argue with that because that's my personal experience. I don't really care whether it empowers anyone else or not, you are arguing for the sake of it.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 4, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I said *it didn't empower ME. *You can't argue with that because that's my personal experience. I don't really care whether it empowers anyone else or not, you are arguing for the sake of it.


But then Dirty Dog agreed with you and it made me mad,


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 4, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I said *it didn't empower ME. *You can't argue with that because that's my personal experience. I don't really care whether it empowers anyone else or not, you are arguing for the sake of it.


I doubt you wouldn't have brought Bob up if you were not, somehow, empowered by him


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 4, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I doubt you wouldn't have brought Bob up if you were not, somehow, empowered by him



I don't have the sort of character that needs to be '_empowered'_ by working with a tool. And if you are trying to wind me up you aren't doing very well, I will stick to working with useful tools like Bob.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 4, 2015)

Look it up. It isn't a bad term. LOL


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 4, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I don't have the sort of character that needs to be '_empowered'_ by working with a tool. And if you are trying to wind me up you aren't doing very well, I will stick to working with useful tools like Bob.


Useful things are empowering.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 4, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Look it up. It isn't a bad term. LOL


dude enough she says it didn't empower her. Give it a rest


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 4, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> dude enough she says it didn't empower her. Give it a rest


I am telling you to look up the term.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 4, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I am telling you to look up the term.


If you did, to give ability and empower mean the same thing. I didn't make up the English language to start this argument; it already exists.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 4, 2015)

I would do, but I cant spell it lol. Anyway seriously dude, are Photon Guy is disguise lol


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 4, 2015)

Bump "are you"


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 4, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I am telling you to look up the term.


I don't care to "look up" anything.  Your being condescending.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 4, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Bump "are you"


I know not of Photon Guy, although I remember reading the name.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jan 4, 2015)

tkdwarrior said:


> On topic, I have been studying the effectiveness of a throat punch or strike.
> 
> I think it is a very effective technique even to those inerbriated or on some time of psychotic or mind aktering drug.
> 
> ...




People above is the OP. 
Looking back over the last few pages I see nothing to do woth that post. Mostly I see people telling each other that certain words have different meanings and do or do not mean something else.  Lets get back to the OP or at least something close to it or start a new thread


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 4, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> People above is the OP.
> Looking back over the last few pages I see nothing to do woth that post. Mostly I see people telling each other that certain words have different meanings and do or do not mean something else.  Lets get back to the OP or at least something close to it or start a new thread


You do this on like every thread is this like your new job on the forums?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 4, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> I don't care to "look up" anything.  Your being condescending.


Why? Scare to learn a new term?


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 4, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Why? Scare to learn a new term?


Nope


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 4, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Nope


Charity means empower too.  In fact just about any word or name beginning with "CHAR" means power.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 4, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Charity means empower too.  In fact just about any word or name beginning with "CHAR" means power.


and?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 4, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> and?


And Bobs are empowering.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 4, 2015)

Okay guys, think this one going to get locked for review, if it diverges anymore. Anyway effective technique does not have to be physical.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jan 4, 2015)

@ Ballen  and everyone else: 
NO my job is to try to keep posts on topic with the OP and stop threads from drifting to far from that OP.
This Forum is for friendly discussions about topics posted in the OP's.  It is not anyone's playground where they can derail as many threads as they can post in
There are some here who seem to think they can say whatever they want and take  any thread somewhere completely in a direction not of the OP. 
If you want to discuss something other than the  op start a new thread or go to a different forum that carters to those subjects you wish to discuss  Anyone contributing to a conversation is welcome to post but stay close to the subject matter 
Did you ever read the rules of the forum if not please take the time to do so
Now folks back to the op PLEASE


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 4, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> And Bobs are empowering.


to you.  Not to me or Tez apparently


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 4, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> to you.  Not to me or Tez apparently


Dictionary....


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 4, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> . Anyway effective technique does not have to be physical.


True


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 4, 2015)

It is however incumbent on posters to use words and phrases that are understood. If they aren't understood and an explanation is asked for, that explanation should be given in such a way as to go over clearly what was meant, not to make fun of the person who doesn't understand.

I'd be interested to know if anyone has used the techniques described in the OP and if so what were the consequences?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 4, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> It is however incumbent on posters to use words and phrases that are understood. If they aren't understood and an explanation is asked for, that explanation should be given in such a way as to go over clearly what was meant, not to make fun of the person who doesn't understand.
> 
> I'd be interested to know if anyone has used the techniques described in the OP and if so what were the consequences?


I taught a girlfriend how to attack the jugular with the finger tips, and told her never to use it. She did it the next day on her ex. I don't do that anymore.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jan 4, 2015)

Many years ago when I first became an instructor I was showing the strike with the web of the hand to a student and foolishly said go ahead try it.  That was a mistake I never did again. Yes it hurt and caused me breathing troubles. Thankfully the student did not use excessive force


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 4, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Many years ago when I first became an instructor I was showing the strike with the web of the hand to a student and foolishly said go ahead try it.  That was a mistake I never did again. Yes it hurt and caused me breathing troubles. Thankfully the student did not use excessive force


I once got a call to a juvenile detention facility for an out of control 14 yr old.  This was a private run facility with no guards just staff that wasn't allowed to touch the kids they had to call police if there was a problem.  Well I get there and the staff asked me to "scare" him a little.  So I go drill instructor on him.  He stands up balls his fists.  So I say "you think your tough you don't have the guts to hit me.  Your just a punk kid do it"  Well he did punched me right in the face.
You and I both learned a valuable lesson don't ever tell someone to hit you............  they just might


----------



## yak sao (Jan 4, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> You and I both learned a valuable lesson don't ever tell someone to hit you............  they just might



Especially if its Batman


----------



## jks9199 (Jan 4, 2015)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please return to the original topic.  Please keep the conversation polite & respectful.  

jks9199
Administrator

Just in case you're missing the point, thread drift and shots are getting to be a major issue.  We're getting tired of it.  Keep it up, and we'll be issuing Warning Points.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 4, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> I once got a call to a juvenile detention facility for an out of control 14 yr old.  This was a private run facility with no guards just staff that wasn't allowed to touch the kids they had to call police if there was a problem.  Well I get there and the staff asked me to "scare" him a little.  So I go drill instructor on him.  He stands up balls his fists.  So I say "you think your tough you don't have the guts to hit me.  Your just a punk kid do it"  Well he did punched me right in the face.
> You and I both learned a valuable lesson don't ever tell someone to hit you............  they just might



Though if they throw their best shot and you are still stood there with a smile on your face it does shake them........and of course you then say 'my turn'.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 4, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Many years ago when I first became an instructor I was showing the strike with the web of the hand to a student and foolishly said go ahead try it.  That was a mistake I never did again. Yes it hurt and caused me breathing troubles. Thankfully the student did not use excessive force



So was that the case of the instructor becoming instructed  Anatomy is not a strong point, can never remember a back from forehand, not that has ever mattered. So the web of the hand inside right, like the palm. Can were you was struck and the name of strike? Obviously an effective technique. Just curious??


----------



## drop bear (Jan 4, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> It is however incumbent on posters to use words and phrases that are understood. If they aren't understood and an explanation is asked for, that explanation should be given in such a way as to go over clearly what was meant, not to make fun of the person who doesn't understand.
> 
> I'd be interested to know if anyone has used the techniques described in the OP and if so what were the consequences?



the bulk of mine were grabs. And the result was they made a gurgling sound and slowly collapsed.

it is interesting that although they had their hands free nobody ever hit me. 

and i agree with op on the effectiveness of throat attack on a guy on drugs. It seemed high percentage.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 4, 2015)

drop bear said:


> the bulk of mine were grabs. And the result was they made a gurgling sound and slowly collapsed.
> 
> it is interesting that although they had their hands free nobody ever hit me.
> 
> and i agree with op on the effectiveness of throat attack on a guy on drugs. It seemed high percentage.



I don't think you can term that an effective technique. Half strangling someone, anybody with enough bulk and strength can do that all night. That is not technique, just brute force imho.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jan 4, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> So was that the case of the instructor becoming instructed  Anatomy is not a strong point, can never remember a back from forehand, not that has ever mattered. So the web of the hand inside right, like the palm. Can were you was struck and the name of strike? Obviously an effective technique. Just curious??



Palm facing downward strike was with the web between the first finger and the thumb. I was struck in the throat across the Adams apple.  And yes I differently was instructed by the student that day.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 4, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> I don't think you can term that an effective technique. Half strangling someone, anybody with enough bulk and strength can do that all night. That is not technique, just brute force imho.



there is a technique to it.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 4, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Palm facing downward strike was with the web between the first finger and the thumb. I was struck in the throat across the Adams apple.  And yes I differently was instructed by the student that day.



Right got it. Across the apple eh. Crikey that would have to be precise no?


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jan 4, 2015)

most strikes to the throat seem to have a nasty effect. A correctly placed one can be devestating


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 4, 2015)

drop bear said:


> there is a technique to it.



Yes you right there is technique to it. It is a collection of techniques that have crapped out. Thus the resorting to brute force. That was my point there. It is not an effective technique, you would still be open to being struck wherever someone being chocked would react.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 4, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> most strikes to the throat seem to have a nasty effect. A correctly placed one can be devestating



Yeah no doubt. I have been shown some stuff regarding the throat.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 4, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Yes you right there is technique to it. It is a collection of techniques that have crapped out. Thus the resorting to brute force. That was my point there. It is not an effective technique, you would still be open to being struck wherever someone being chocked would react.



you would think that. But it doesn't happen.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 4, 2015)

drop bear said:


> you would think that. But it doesn't happen.



Oh right, you are a 100 per center that never fails. Now is that slightly ambiguous reply directed towards me, or just dismissing someone's voice as per usual. Sorry, I am stupid, state thread intentions clearly please


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Oh right, you are a 100 per center that never fails. Now is that slightly ambiguous reply directed towards me, or just dismissing someone's voice as per usual. Sorry, I am stupid, state thread intentions clearly please



it would make sense that if i grab someone by the throat he has his arms free so he just punches me untill i let go.

but it just doesn't happen.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

what does this prove?

nothing. But i thought it was pretty funny.

is he drunk?


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

all right this is the one i was looking for.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 5, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Oh right, you are a 100 per center that never fails. Now is that slightly ambiguous reply directed towards me, or just dismissing someone's voice as per usual. Sorry, I am stupid, state thread intentions clearly please



Right, well being heavily dyslexic, the posts are sometimes very difficult to follow


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> what does this prove?
> 
> nothing. But i thought it was pretty funny.
> 
> is he drunk?



Yes, it would appear so lol.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Right, well being heavily dyslexic, the posts are sometimes very difficult to follow



it is a discussion. Considering I can waste pages on flame wars. I think i can take the time to expand or explain stuff.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> it is a discussion. Considering I can waste pages on flame wars. I think i can take the time to expand or explain stuff.



Hey dude, you ain't been in no flame war, trust me on that one  I don't mind what you post, that is none of my business, but I'm here to keep my nose clean, and take what I see as just that. That is the problem I have, and likely vice versa with my appalling grammar some time. However, I try to correct and make legible what I write. That is all I am asking. That is not too much is it. Secondly, you don't explain anything, you just expand on a point and close the other one down, it is not even a tangent. Just for me, please use proper grammar as best as you can, that is all I ask


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Hey dude, you ain't been no flame war, trust me on that one  I don't mind what you post, that is none of my business, but I'm here to keep my nose clean, and take what I see as just that. That is the problem I have, and likely vice versa with my appalling grammar some time. However, I try to correct and make legible what I write. That is all I am asking. That is not too much is it. Secondly, you don't explain anything, you just expand on a point and close the other one down, it is not even a tangent. Just for me, please use proper grammar as best as you can, that is all I ask



no.......


glad we got that sorted out.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> no.......
> 
> 
> glad we got that sorted out.



Well I tried. Oh well, guess the Effective Technique would be to hit the ignore button!


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Well I tried. Oh well, guess the Effective Technique would be to hit the ignore button!



if you want.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> it would make sense that if i grab someone by the throat he has his arms free so he just punches me untill i let go.
> 
> but it just doesn't happen.


I'm not sure where you get the idea it doesn't happen


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> I'm not sure where you get the idea it doesn't happen



I used to do it a lot. And was taught it by a guy who was even more effective with it.

And in my experience a good throat grab pretty much paralyzes people.


----------



## K-man (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I used to do it a lot. And was taught it by a guy who was even more effective with it.
> 
> And in my experience a good throat grab pretty much paralyzes people.


Perhaps it might be fair to say it might paralyse an untrained person because his attention is on the potential danger. You see it all the time when you train newbies. They will try to take your hands off by grabbing the wrists. They can't believe how simple it is when the roles are reversed and you reach for the eyes.

I'm with *ballen*. Grab my throat and make sure you protect your eyes and groin. One way or the other you are going to wish you hadn't done it.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I used to do it a lot. And was taught it by a guy who was even more effective with it.
> 
> And in my experience a good throat grab pretty much paralyzes people.


Well that's good to know.  I'll never need to learn another technique again.  Just grab their throat and the fights over it paralyzes the opponent.


----------



## K-man (Jan 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Well that's good to know.  I'll never need to learn another technique again.  Just grab their throat and the fights over it paralyzes the opponent.


Mmm! In fairness, DB may be talking from the perspective of perceived authority. To an untrained person, being grabbed anywhere by someone with an air of confidence is confronting. 

What I would be interested in finding out from your experience is how many times do people really resist when you are cuffing them? What I am suggesting is that in reality they may put up a token struggle but they have accepted the inevitability of the situation.

Now the reason for me asking is one of my senior guys is ex-cop. When he first started with me years back I asked him how he would control someone to cuff him. We had a very interesting training session.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

K-man said:


> Perhaps it might be fair to say it might paralyse an untrained person because his attention is on the potential danger. You see it all the time when you train newbies. They will try to take your hands off by grabbing the wrists. They can't believe how simple it is when the roles are reversed and you reach for the eyes.
> 
> I'm with *ballen*. Grab my throat and make sure you protect your eyes and groin. One way or the other you are going to wish you hadn't done it.



eyegouges are slow to work though. I have been eye gouged a few times now. And if my head was free I could pretty much shake it off.

I had a mate who was groin grabbed and punched his way out of it.

airway is fast. It is a tangent but i will find a video of a water boarding. Which demonstrates how quickly a clogged airway messes with people.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Well that's good to know.  I'll never need to learn another technique again.  Just grab their throat and the fights over it paralyzes the opponent.



yes that is exactly what it does.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

water boarding.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> yes that is exactly what it does.



Really..... all the time in every single throat grab...  interesting...so that defense against a throat grab I learned in Jujutsu, that seemed to have worked, was a complete waste of time...who knew


----------



## K-man (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> eyegouges are slow to work though. I have been eye gouged a few times now. And if my head was free I could pretty much shake it off.
> 
> I had a mate who was groin grabbed and punched his way out of it.
> 
> airway is fast. It is a tangent but i will find a video of a water boarding. Which demonstrates how quickly a clogged airway messes with people.


I'm not talking about eye gouging. If you have both hands on my neck your shoulders are square. My reaching for your eyes will elicit a flinch response. If you are serious about choking me, I'm serious about blinding you. And I'm not talking about grabbing your groin. I will be hammering your groin. If you can withstand that then fair enough. But in a less threatening situation I'll be out of your grip in a fraction of a second anyway, without hurting you.  

Where water boarding comes into it is anyone's guess. If by that you reckon you can hold my throat long enough for me to feel threatened you're dreamin'.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> yes that is exactly what it does.


No it doesn't.  I've had people grab my throat.  Guess what I didn't freeze.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

K-man said:


> I'm not talking about eye gouging. If you have both hands on my neck your shoulders are square. My reaching for your eyes will elicit a flinch response. If you are serious about choking me, I'm serious about blinding you. And I'm not talking about grabbing your groin. I will be hammering your groin. If you can withstand that then fair enough. But in a less threatening situation I'll be out of your grip in a fraction of a second anyway, without hurting you.
> 
> Where water boarding comes into it is anyone's guess. If by that you reckon you can hold my throat long enough for me to feel threatened you're dreamin'.



sometimes there is a difference between what should happen and what does happen.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> No it doesn't.  I've had people grab my throat.  Guess what I didn't freeze.



if that is you experience with chokes then that is your experience.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> sometimes there is a difference between what should happen and what does happen.



Yeah. On that you are correct. I am curious about one thing. Basically I have been unable to separate fact from fiction, MMA bout, or on the door. Which is it. You are on the door with the intention of knocking someone out. Nothing wrong with knocking someone out, but not with a hunting outlook. In the cage, ring or whatever fair enough.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Yeah. On that you are correct. I am curious about one thing. Basically I have been unable to separate fact from fiction, MMA bout, or on the door. Which is it. You are on the door with the intention of knocking someone out. Nothing wrong with knocking someone out, but not with a hunting outlook. In the cage, ring or whatever fair enough.



i am not sure what you are asking here.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> no.......
> 
> 
> glad we got that sorted out.



Actually no we have not. You are to disingenuous for me to actually know what you mean. Actually I do know what you, but you're motives are somewhat obscure still. You say you do not get offended, that is absolute fishhook's. You are being passive yes, but do you realise that you were using passive aggression in that post. Of course you do, that sorts nothing, which you know of course!


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> i am not sure what you are asking here.



Yes you do


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 5, 2015)

K-man said:


> Mmm! In fairness, DB may be talking from the perspective of perceived authority. To an untrained person, being grabbed anywhere by someone with an air of confidence is confronting.
> 
> What I would be interested in finding out from your experience is how many times do people really resist when you are cuffing them? What I am suggesting is that in reality they may put up a token struggle but they have accepted the inevitability of the situation.
> 
> Now the reason for me asking is one of my senior guys is ex-cop. When he first started with me years back I asked him how he would control someone to cuff him. We had a very interesting training session.


Most folks don't actively resist.  It's more passive like refusing to put their hands behind there back.  Failing to follow directions.  Usually if they are really trying to keep from being cuffed they will lay on their stomachs and pull their hands under their bodies.  Or they will pull away and try to run.  Very rare for someone to stand and want to fight you.  It happens every now and again.  I usually nip and resistance in the bud with a quick hard take down that usually let's them know I'm not playing around and they comply.  Sometimes it takes more.  Few strikes or pressure point.  Other guys have been known to use the taser.  I'm not a big tasers guy and I don't carry one.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> if that is you experience with chokes then that is your experience.


And your claim was everyone is paralyzed so. ...


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> And your claim was everyone is paralyzed so. ...



i do a better choke.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> i do a better choke.


How do you know


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Yes you do



no really i don't.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> How do you know



because my choke works and the ones done on you didn't.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> because my choke works and the ones done on you didn't.


Lol ok.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> no really i don't.



Yes you do. Come now, are really sure that MMA is a praticle tool to use on the door. No it is not. Look, I had the same aggressive intentions, we all do. Now I really know that you know what I am alluding to here


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> eyegouges are slow to work though. I have been eye gouged a few times now. And if my head was free I could pretty much shake it off.
> 
> I had a mate who was groin grabbed and punched his way out of it.
> 
> airway is fast. It is a tangent but i will find a video of a water boarding. Which demonstrates how quickly a clogged airway messes with people.



You've been eye gouged a few times...really.... can you still see, or can you still see like you did (20/20 or whatever it was on the scale) prior to the eye gouge?

And you should take into account there is a rather big difference in human reaction between someone trying to choke them and some one being choked by water (or any foreign object) in the throat



drop bear said:


> sometimes there is a difference between what should happen and what does happen.



Sometimes it is the difference in reality (experience) and fantasy too... particularly YouTube based fantasy


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> no really i don't.



Huh, gone silent now have you. Oh that is boring


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 5, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> You've been eye gouged a few times...really.... can you still see, or can you still see like you did (20/20 or whatever it was on the scale) prior to the eye gouge?
> 
> And you should take into account there is a rather big difference in human reaction between someone trying to choke them and some one being choked by water (or any foreign object) in the throat
> 
> ...



Concur. Nice


----------



## K-man (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> because my choke works and the ones done on you didn't.


Well I will guarantee that you have never put a choke on anyone with any training, and here I am talking of a single or double hand grab to the throat (not guillotine or RNC). One it is a dumb move and two, you are out if it in less than a quarter second. Unless you are posturing you would never do it. As an effective technique I would rate it zero unless you are on the ground and even then there would be a dozen better choices.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 5, 2015)

@K-man. RNC?


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 5, 2015)

Funny thing is I go to domestic assaults all the time where the man chokes the woman and I know several who fought back and won and none of them had any training


----------



## K-man (Jan 5, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> @K-man. RNC?


Rear naked choke.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 5, 2015)

K-man said:


> Rear naked choke.



Thanks


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I used to do it a lot. And was taught it by a guy who was even more effective with it.
> 
> And in my experience a good throat grab pretty much paralyzes people.



Well, no, you actually need to break their neck to paralyze them...


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 5, 2015)

Cmon drop bear, you must have a response to this? Huh!


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 5, 2015)

Or maybe not


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Funny thing is I go to domestic assaults all the time where the man chokes the woman and I know several who fought back and won and none of them had any training


It sort of tells you what kind of guy thinks that is a good move. LOL


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Yes you do. Come now, are really sure that MMA is a praticle tool to use on the door. No it is not. Look, I had the same aggressive intentions, we all do. Now I really know that you know what I am alluding to here



mma isn't all ground an pound

highly practical martial art for security guard. Just like anything with strong wrestling.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

K-man said:


> Well I will guarantee that you have never put a choke on anyone with any training, and here I am talking of a single or double hand grab to the throat (not guillotine or RNC). One it is a dumb move and two, you are out if it in less than a quarter second. Unless you are posturing you would never do it. As an effective technique I would rate it zero unless you are on the ground and even then there would be a dozen better choices.



from your practical experience with it?


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well, no, you actually need to break their neck to paralyze them...



not if you are using the English language.



par-a-lyze


 Translate Button  

[par-uh-lahyz]      


verb (used with object), paralyzed, paralyzing.  
1. 
to affect with paralysis. 



2. 
to bring to a condition of helpless stoppage, inactivity, or inability to act: 
"The strike paralyzed communications."


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Funny thing is I go to domestic assaults all the time where the man chokes the woman and I know several who fought back and won and none of them had any training



obviously there is more than one way to do this choke. And the way you and k man do it does not work.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> not if you are using the English language.



You're going to tell me what paralysis is? :rofl:

There is a vital difference between "cannot" and "does not". Cannot, meaning incapable, will require that their spinal cord be severed. Otherwise, it is a case of "does not" rather than "cannot".

That is, if you're using the English language, of course.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> You're going to tell me what paralysis is? :rofl:
> 
> There is a vital difference between "cannot" and "does not". Cannot, meaning incapable, will require that their spinal cord be severed. Otherwise, it is a case of "does not" rather than "cannot".
> 
> That is, if you're using the English language, of course.



Did you read the dictionary meaning of that word?


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> It sort of tells you what kind of guy thinks that is a good move. LOL



No that is a dog whistle.

Wife beaters use chokes so if i use a choke i am a wife beater?

Is that really the level you are going to play at?


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> obviously there is more than one way to do this choke. And the way you and k man do it does not work.


I don't choke people.  If we are going to use the English language a choke is internal like when you choke in food.  External would be strangulation.  Either way I do neither.  I've had it attempted on me it failed.  Both from front and rear.  I've also seen several cases of woman who's boyfriends or husband's tried to strangle then and they were not frozen in fear or paralyzed or whatever other nonsense you want to spout.  No in fact they fought back and we're able to get away and call the police.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> You've been eye gouged a few times...really.... can you still see, or can you still see like you did (20/20 or whatever it was on the scale) prior to the eye gouge?
> 
> And you should take into account there is a rather big difference in human reaction between someone trying to choke them and some one being choked by water (or any foreign object) in the throat
> 
> ...



my eyes did not pop out of my skull driving me into a screaming ball of fight finishing agony.

there is kind of a misconception about that.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> I don't choke people.  If we are going to use the English language a choke is internal like when you choke in food.  External would be strangulation.  Either way I do neither.  I've had it attempted on me it failed.  Both from front and rear.  I've also seen several cases of woman who's boyfriends or husband's tried to strangle then and they were not frozen in fear or paralyzed or whatever other nonsense you want to spout.  No in fact they fought back and we're able to get away and call the police.



ok. So you don't have experience using that technique.

you are saying what now? The rear naked or sleeper choke is also ineffective?

oh. And good for that girl.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> oh. And good for that girl.


Wasn't just one.  It was several over the years.  None were trained and they had no problems not being "paralyzed"


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> ok. So you don't have experience using that technique.
> 
> you are saying what now? The rear naked or sleeper choke is also ineffective?
> 
> oh. And good for that girl.


Carotid artery, means choke artery, in English!!!!!; so, don't EVER let anyone pull that.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 5, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Carotid artery, means choke artery, in English!!!!!; so, don't EVER let anyone pull that.



Well, no... Carotid is Latin and means "stupefy". In English it means "that big *** artery in your neck".


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 5, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well, no... Carotid is Latin and means "stupefy". In English it means "that big *** artery in your neck".


Lies! It is Greek, but I mean that it is long understood.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Carotid artery, means choke artery, in English!!!!!; so, don't EVER let anyone pull that.



And technically you can either go for the airways or the blood supply.

mma is often the airway because you get a quicker submission. Which i found a bit weird when i was first taught it.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Wasn't just one.  It was several over the years.  None were trained and they had no problems not being "paralyzed"



well then good for all those girls. I guess we should just be thankful that bad guys don't know how to choke people.


----------



## K-man (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> obviously there is more than one way to do this choke. And the way you and k man do it does not work.


If you had a BJJ instructor that couldn't pass the guard on his students you would reckon he was a crap instructor. If I couldn't teach any adult to escape your choke I'd give the game away.

This is one of the first releases I teach my students. None of them have failed yet and there are a lot of big strong guys there trying to hold them. You must have hands that could hold a dinner plate, balls of steel and buttons for eyes. I for one don't believe you have ever been eye gouged by someone trying to really harm you. I'll guarantee you that if I did it to you your eyes would be hanging down your cheeks. 

You are arguing rubbish for the sake of arguing. A two handed front or side choke will not work against a trained person.

Here is a BJJ version of escaping. Mine is even simpler.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

K-man said:


> If you had a BJJ instructor that couldn't pass the guard on his students you would reckon he was a crap instructor. If I couldn't teach any adult to escape your choke I'd give the game away.
> 
> This is one of the first releases I teach my students. None of them have failed yet and there are a lot of big strong guys there trying to hold them. You must have hands that could hold a dinner plate, balls of steel and buttons for eyes. I for one don't believe you have ever been eye gouged by someone trying to really harm you. I'll guarantee you that if I did it to you your eyes would be hanging down your cheeks.
> 
> ...



Wrong choke. 

There is a difference between what you think will happen in a fight and what does happen. 

And this is what i am arguing. Not what might happen according to dogma or what feels right but what does happen according to real world experience.

I am sorry that does not match your training methods. But there is nothing i can do about that.


----------



## K-man (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Wrong choke.


Well that is your problem. I described the choke I was talking about at the beginning, but maybe it is just your memory. 



drop bear said:


> There is a difference between what you think will happen in a fight and what does happen.
> 
> And this is what i am arguing. Not what might happen according to dogma or what feels right but what does happen according to real world experience.
> 
> I am sorry that does not match your training methods. But there is nothing i can do about that.


Is this meant to mean anything? Just what are you arguing?



drop bear said:


> it would make sense that if i grab someone by the throat he has his arms free so he just punches me untill i let go.
> 
> but it just doesn't happen.


This is what you first posted ... and it is obviously a silly statement. No one will just stand there while you choke them out. That's about as good as a no touch knockout.



drop bear said:


> what does this prove?
> 
> nothing. But i thought it was pretty funny.
> 
> is he drunk?


Then you showed this which is even easier to escape than two hands.



drop bear said:


> all right this is the one i was looking for.


Then you showed this which is not a choke. The cop just takes him to the ground and immediately releases.


drop bear said:


> it is a discussion. Considering I can waste pages on flame wars. I think i can take the time to expand or explain stuff.


So seeing you are so brilliant at flame wars perhaps you could take a little time to read what I post so you can explain your stuff better.



drop bear said:


> I used to do it a lot. And was taught it by a guy who was even more effective with it.
> 
> And in my experience a good throat grab pretty much paralyzes people.


Now you are back to the throat grab, which as Dirty Dog explained doesn't paralyse anyone. If it did I'm sure it would have been one of the first points I would have been shown in Kyusho.



drop bear said:


> obviously there is more than one way to do this choke. And the way you and k man do it does not work.


No, the choke will work just fine as long as your victim is happy to leave your hands there.  If you haven't got a compliant victim it is a Monty that it won't work, especially if the person has some rudimentary self defence knowledge. In my earlier post I did exclude a choke where the victim was on his/back but from your extensive MMA background you would recognise the problems associated with having your arms in a position where you can be arm-barred.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

K-man said:


> This is what you first posted ... and it is obviously a silly statement. No one will just stand there while you choke them out. That's about as good as a no touch knockout.



You say, having no real clue about that technique. You don't know you haven't done it. You are taking what you think will happen and using that to refute what does happen.

And you do that a fair bit.

yes. I believed the same thing as you until i saw it done and then did it myself.

but having done it successfully I can tell you that you are wrong here. I can guess as to why this happens. I think that the effect of having your wind pipe compressed in that manner is such a primal fear that it is incredibly difficult to function.

you may with training acclimate to it. But i am pretty sure when you say trained. You don't mean squeezed on hard with intent to really hurt the guy.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

K-man said:


> Now you are back to the throat grab, which as Dirty Dog explained doesn't paralyse anyone. If it did I'm sure it would have been one of the first points I would have been shown in Kyusho.



Dirty dogs explanation does not comply with the dictionary meaning of paralyze. So while i am sure he is a wonderful guy. The dictionary is probably right here.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

K-man said:


> Then you showed this which is even easier to escape than two hands.



No it is harder. And your hand gets a better grip on their wind pipe. Your understanding of this technique is really limited.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

K-man said:


> No, the choke will work just fine as long as your victim is happy to leave your hands there.  If you haven't got a compliant victim it is a Monty that it won't work, especially if the person has some rudimentary self defence knowledge. In my earlier post I did exclude a choke where the victim was on his/back but from your extensive MMA background you would recognise the problems associated with having your arms in a position where you can be arm-barred.



there are a whole bunch of things that makes it hard to arm bar. If you find me someone who understands the mechanics of an arm bar I could discuss it with them.

but it would get really complicated.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

K-man said:


> Is this meant to mean anything? Just what are you arguing?



That you don't have the experience to make that call pretty much.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Dirty dogs explanation does not comply with the dictionary meaning of paralyze. So while i am sure he is a wonderful guy. The dictionary is probably right here.



The dictionary is right. So am I. What's incorrect is your apparent inability (or unwillingness) to grasp the difference between "cannot" and "does not". A person may react in a sub-optimal way to an attack of any kind. That doesn't mean they're paralyzed. It means they reacted badly.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 5, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> The dictionary is right. So am I. What's incorrect is your apparent inability (or unwillingness) to grasp the difference between "cannot" and "does not". A person may react in a sub-optimal way to an attack of any kind. That doesn't mean they're paralyzed. It means they reacted badly.



did you read the example sentence that used the word paralyzed. It does not fit your criteria. And certainly does not imply broken necks.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> did you read the example sentence that used the word paralyzed. It does not fit your criteria. And certainly does not imply broken necks.



I've read enough of your posts to know that if I said "the sky is blue", you'd say I was wrong because I didn't define the particular shade of blue. 
That's ok. You can declare yourself the winner of the "conversational sparring". 
Have a nice day.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I've read enough of your posts to know that if I said "the sky is blue", you'd say I was wrong because I didn't define the particular shade of blue.
> That's ok. You can declare yourself the winner of the "conversational sparring".
> Have a nice day.



Who exactly started this sparring match over the meaning of the word paralyzed?

i am pretty sure it was you arguing the metaphorical shade of blue here.


----------



## K-man (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Dirty dogs explanation does not comply with the dictionary meaning of paralyze. So while i am sure he is a wonderful guy. The dictionary is probably right here.


He is also highly trained in emergency medicine. You are wrong!


----------



## K-man (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You say, having no real clue about that technique. You don't know you haven't done it. You are taking what you think will happen and using that to refute what does happen.
> 
> And you do that a fair bit.
> 
> ...


Just what don't I understand. I could invite anyone to do that choke and I would be out of it before any pressure could be applied. Your blowing smoke. I've been playing with chokes since way before you were born. And, for what it's worth, when I am demonstrating this I do ask them to try to apply the choke. It just can't be done. If it can be done to you then you have no decent training. I teach the escape to schoolgirls in SD class. Get over it.


----------



## K-man (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> No it is harder. And your hand gets a better grip on their wind pipe. Your understanding of this technique is really limited.


Are you for real?


----------



## K-man (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> That you don't have the experience to make that call pretty much.


LOL! That from someone with no qualification in the martial arts. Right!


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

K-man said:


> He is also highly trained in emergency medicine. You are wrong!



lol.

That does not make him a dictionary.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

K-man said:


> LOL! That from someone with no qualification in the martial arts. Right!



Qualification in martial arts does not always equal ability.

I actually use this stuff.


----------



## K-man (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Qualification in martial arts does not always equal ability.
> 
> I actually use this stuff.


Hmm! I must remember that! What a classic. Now where the hell is that bunny with the pancake on its head?


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Qualification in martial arts does not always equal ability.
> 
> I actually use this stuff.


Where?  Where do you run around choking people and causing them to freeze in fear and not fight you back.  If your that good why are you not a professional fighter you could just walk in the ring slap on the WWE choke and boom you win


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 6, 2015)

K-man said:


> If you had a BJJ instructor that couldn't pass the guard on his students you would reckon he was a crap instructor. If I couldn't teach any adult to escape your choke I'd give the game away.
> 
> This is one of the first releases I teach my students. None of them have failed yet and there are a lot of big strong guys there trying to hold them. You must have hands that could hold a dinner plate, balls of steel and buttons for eyes. I for one don't believe you have ever been eye gouged by someone trying to really harm you. I'll guarantee you that if I did it to you your eyes would be hanging down your cheeks.
> 
> ...


If you were going to attack a trained traditional martial artist the two handed throat grab would be one of the last things you would want to do, it will tie both your hands up whilst leaving their arms free to strike. It is one of the most common self defense techniques to be taught and there is a buttload of ways to get out of it. The one in that video does not appear to be a very good one. The grabber might be able to stop the escape by bending their arms as he begins to roll his head out (I will have to test it out to be sure). One of my personal favorites is to just tilt my head back and clap the grabber's hands together.and kick to the groin.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> No it is harder. And your hand gets a better grip on their wind pipe. Your understanding of this technique is really limited.


Nope, two handed grip is harder, two hands are stronger than one, you can compress the trachea with both your thumbs with a two handed grip.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> eyegouges are slow to work though. I have been eye gouged a few times now. And if my head was free I could pretty much shake it off.


I just saw an old UFC event where one fighter was poked in the eye and it stopped the fight immediately, he was rolling around on the mat in agony, he did not shake it off. It probably did not help that he had eye surgery a few months before for a detached retina, but still.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 6, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Nope, two handed grip is harder, two hands are stronger than one, you can compress the trachea with both your thumbs with a two handed grip.



If you're compressing the trachea, you're doing it wrong. Or at least, you're doing it in a way that will take much longer to be effective.
Compression of the carotids will result in loss of consciousness much much sooner than compression of the trachea.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 6, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> If you're compressing the trachea, you're doing it wrong. Or at least, you're doing it in a way that will take much longer to be effective.
> Compression of the carotids will result in loss of consciousness much much sooner than compression of the trachea.


Compressing the trachea, and/or the Adam's apple would be very uncomfortable. Making someone suffer might be the goal of an attacker instead of making someone unconscious.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 6, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Compressing the trachea, and/or the Adam's apple would be very uncomfortable. Making someone suffer might be the goal of an attacker instead of making someone unconscious.



I suppose it could be. Personally, my goal is always, 100% of the time, to end the threat as quickly as possible. If I believe that pain compliance will do it, there are better ways to do that. Ways that won't lead to accidental death. Like, say, if I squeeze too hard and fracture the larynx, or collapse the cartilage rings in the trachea.
I'm doubtful that I would ever have "[m]aking someone suffer" as a goal, since the implication there is one of inflicting needless pain or harm.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> my eyes did not pop out of my skull driving me into a screaming ball of fight finishing agony.
> 
> there is kind of a misconception about that.



You have a misconception as to what an eye gouge actually is (or can be) and I am basing that on your original post where you claimed to have had a few done to you and your above description..... bottom-line, I doubt you every had one preformed on you....


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 6, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm doubtful that I would ever have "[m]aking someone suffer" as a goal, since the implication there is one of inflicting needless pain or harm.


Neither would I but my attacker might. I would more likely use it as a defense where I deflect a throat grab, grab there just to do a knee strike to the groin or solar plexus.


----------



## Steve (Jan 6, 2015)

Having been choked a lot, I will say that a carotid choke is more effective at putting me to sleep, but the air choke (such as is often the case with a guillotine, thumb choke or the like) is panic inducing.  A carotid choke is almost comfortable, if that makes sense.  The air choke is painful and can cause physical damage to your throat.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 6, 2015)

Steve said:


> Having been choked a lot, I will say that a carotid choke is more effective at putting me to sleep, but the air choke (such as is often the case with a guillotine, thumb choke or the like) is panic inducing.  A carotid choke is almost comfortable, if that makes sense.  The air choke is painful and can cause physical damage to your throat.



Which would be why an air choke makes perfect sense in a competitive environment, where the goal is to get your opponent to tap out. It's less sensible in a self defense environment, where it's better to replace "tap" with "pass".


----------



## Steve (Jan 6, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Which would be why an air choke makes perfect sense in a competitive environment, where the goal is to get your opponent to tap out. It's less sensible in a self defense environment, where it's better to replace "tap" with "pass".


 I think it's just the opposite.  An air choke has a much greater chance of causing injury and would be somewhat irresponsible.  Also, in a competition, guys are often entering with a combative attitude in which they have mentally prepared themselves not to tap out.  It's stupid, but it happens.

It just seems reasonable to me that, intellectually, it would seem that a carotid choke would be more sensible for self defense.  But practically, if your goal is to end an altercation, an air choke would likely deflate any resistance faster.  I've put new guys to sleep before, because they just had no idea they were being choked.  They were so comfortable, could still breath and just went night night. 

One other thing to consider is that a blood choke has to be applied correctly to work, and against a person who doesn't want you to do it, that can be tricky.  An air choke doesn't even have to work.  Just the threat, along with the pressure on the adam's apple, is enough to get people to give up.  It's a mental thing thing AND a physical thing. 

Just to be clear, I am not saying that I am an expert.  I don't go around choking people.  What I am saying is that what drop bear suggests seems reasonable to me, based upon my own experience with both kinds of chokes.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 6, 2015)

Steve said:


> I think it's just the opposite.  An air choke has a much greater chance of causing injury and would be somewhat irresponsible.  Also, in a competition, guys are often entering with a combative attitude in which they have mentally prepared themselves not to tap out.  It's stupid, but it happens.



I don't disagree. If I were to compete in this sort of event, I'd be much more likely to use a blood choke. But that's my mindset - end it quickly.



Steve said:


> It just seems reasonable to me that, intellectually, it would seem that a carotid choke would be more sensible for self defense.  But practically, if your goal is to end an altercation, an air choke would likely deflate any resistance faster.  I've put new guys to sleep before, because they just had no idea they were being choked.  They were so comfortable, could still breath and just went night night.



Or, conversely, the feeling of air starvation can trigger a large adrenalin dump and your opponent becomes more difficult to control. Especially for the length of time it takes to put them out. While I'm not about to say it's universal, I will say that in my experience (I avoid air chokes, but I've seen plenty applied) this is the more likely scenario.



Steve said:


> One other thing to consider is that a blood choke has to be applied correctly to work, and against a person who doesn't want you to do it, that can be tricky.  An air choke doesn't even have to work.  Just the threat, along with the pressure on the adam's apple, is enough to get people to give up.  It's a mental thing thing AND a physical thing.
> 
> Just to be clear, I am not saying that I am an expert.  I don't go around choking people.  What I am saying is that what drop bear suggests seems reasonable to me, based upon my own experience with both kinds of chokes.



I think the difference here is setting. You're accustomed to, and thinking about, a competitive setting. I'm accustomed to, and thinking about, a violent person in a non-competitive setting.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear,

I am having a hard time actually picturing the choke you are talking it about. If it is the choke I think you are talking about and that I think the other's believe you to be talking about then it really is the most basic and primitive form of attack. It is extremely simple to get out of. If someone panics because of a lack of training or experience then that is an issue with that individual; it does not mean that it does not have a simple solution.

Also if you're choking people as you have stated then you are opening yourself up to some serious lawsuits or criminal charges.

Regarding the "eye gouge", if you can still see out of it then you were poked in the eye, you did not have it gouged. Gouging implies permanent damage to the tissue.


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## Steve (Jan 6, 2015)

[QUOTE="Dirty Dog, post: 1681115, member: 20725]
I think the difference here is setting. You're accustomed to, and thinking about, a competitive setting. I'm accustomed to, and thinking about, a violent person in a non-competitive setting.[/QUOTE]I agree completely.  Which gets back to the point that you have practical experience.  Others here also have practical experience.  It's helpful to differentiate this from theoretical expertise. 

Someone works as a bouncer, that person, in that context, has a lot of experience.  A cop can also have a lot of experience, but in a slightly different context.  Working in the ER, your experience is just as valid, but in a different context.  I think that the discussions based upon experience can be very interesting and informative. 

But, if you have no actual experience, that's important to recognize, as well.  Often, people who are inexperienced don't know what they don't know.  It's unconscious incompetence.  In order to learn, you have to first recognize that you have a lot to learn (conscious incompetence).


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> You have a misconception as to what an eye gouge actually is (or can be) and I am basing that on your original post where you claimed to have had a few done to you and your above description..... bottom-line, I doubt you every had one preformed on you....



did the person who taught you the effects of the eye gouge have any personal experience with it?


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Compressing the trachea, and/or the Adam's apple would be very uncomfortable. Making someone suffer might be the goal of an attacker instead of making someone unconscious.



Yeah, get wrong though, banged up for life, or six months on good behaviour!


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Steve said:


> I think it's just the opposite.  An air choke has a much greater chance of causing injury and would be somewhat irresponsible.  Also, in a competition, guys are often entering with a combative attitude in which they have mentally prepared themselves not to tap out.  It's stupid, but it happens.
> 
> It just seems reasonable to me that, intellectually, it would seem that a carotid choke would be more sensible for self defense.  But practically, if your goal is to end an altercation, an air choke would likely deflate any resistance faster.  I've put new guys to sleep before, because they just had no idea they were being choked.  They were so comfortable, could still breath and just went night night.
> 
> ...



Competition wise. I always wen blood choke. This was consistent in a lot of styles I did. Including reality based ones. And i have choked guys out on the job.

Anyway the reason we all started mma here is because we had a fresh of the boat btt brown belt come down for an extended holiday and start teaching us.

he teached across the throat. And i pulled him up on it at the time because i thought it was a hack choke. But it gets a quicker tap.

now everybody has a personal preference.(which seems to be lost in this thread replaced with my way or the high way) but that choke is done by reputable guys.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Yeah, get wrong though, banged up for life, or six months on good behaviour!



as opposed to the throat punching that we started with?


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> did the person who taught you the effects of the eye gouge have any personal experience with it?



That actually makes me quite queasy. Dunno, but if someone tried to, or actually did, reckon I would pretty much want to kill them for the audacity. Reckon I would take the lunacy defense lol.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Which would be why an air choke makes perfect sense in a competitive environment, where the goal is to get your opponent to tap out. It's less sensible in a self defense environment, where it's better to replace "tap" with "pass".



yes . And i almost always went with the blood choke. I don't even do that any more cos of legals.

 But like anything it depends what you want to do. Say someone was going in hard with the eye gouge and you come up behind and want him off quick.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> as opposed to the throat punching that we started with?



Throat punch someone on the sweet spot, yeah you're pretty much shoving a biro into the throat.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> yes . And i almost always went with the blood choke. I don't even do that any more cos of legals.
> 
> But like anything it depends what you want to do. Say someone was going in hard with the eye gouge and you come up behind and want him off quick.



Still pretty much lost on what a blood choke is?


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> That actually makes me quite queasy. Dunno, but if someone tried to, or actually did, reckon I would pretty much want to kill them for the audacity. Reckon I would take the lunacy defense lol.



biting riles me up worse because you don't need to lock the body in place to make it work.

mostly the eye gouge is a hail Mary move.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> biting riles me up worse because you don't need to lock the body in place to make it work.
> 
> mostly the eye gouge is a hail Mary move.



Yes it would be wouldn't it. Incapacitate the opponent, while causing maximum pain. Or at least painful incapacitation.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Still pretty much lost on what a blood choke is?



ok the rear naked. Which i describe as the ground version or the sleeper which i use for the standing can either be applied with the pressure across the front of the throat blocking the airway or across the side blocking the blood vessels. And just to ad a third option you don't even need the neck. You can crush the face with that move and get a submission. But it is seen as a bit dirty for your average bjj school.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> did the person who taught you the effects of the eye gouge have any personal experience with it?



Here's the thing, since I believe you are basing much of this on YouTube videos and making the rest of this up, especially the "eye gouge bits" I do not see any reason to pursue this with you at all....so you have a nice day.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> ok the rear naked. Which i describe as the ground version or the sleeper which i use for the standing can either be applied with the pressure across the front of the throat blocking the airway or across the side blocking the blood vessels. And just to ad a third option you don't even need the neck. You can crush the face with that move and get a submission. But it is seen as a bit dirty for your average bjj school.



Ah, BJJ again. No next to nothing on that art.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> ok the rear naked. Which i describe as the ground version or the sleeper which i use for the standing can either be applied with the pressure across the front of the throat blocking the airway or across the side blocking the blood vessels. And just to ad a third option you don't even need the neck. You can crush the face with that move and get a submission. But it is seen as a bit dirty for your average bjj school.


you get a patch to wear on your uniform if that guy chokes you out.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Still pretty much lost on what a blood choke is?



Any choke that relies on restriction of blood flow rather than air flow. Basically, clamping the carotid arteries in any of a number of ways. No blood flow to the brain = Good Night Gracie. Obviously, this can also cause damage to the brain.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Ah, BJJ again. No next to nothing on that art.



Our coach subbed a bjjer with a face crush. And received the most severe scowling faces for it. I received the same response subbing one with a can opener.

mma has a slightly different outlook on submission wrestling.


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## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Any choke that relies on restriction of blood flow rather than air flow. Basically, clamping the carotid arteries in any of a number of ways. No blood flow to the brain = Good Night Gracie. Obviously, this can also cause damage to the brain.



Due to oxygen deprivation. What it is like 15 minutes or so? Yes some real nasty permutations.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Our coach subbed a bjjer with a face crush. And received the most severe scowling faces for it. I received the same response subbing one with a can opener.
> 
> mma has a slightly different outlook on submission wrestling.



Yeah guess it does, but you are loosing me in terminology. Maybe put in another term for me please.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Here's the thing, since I believe you are basing much of this on YouTube videos and making the rest of this up, especially the "eye gouge bits" I do not see any reason to pursue this with you at all....so you have a nice day.



that is a no.

Look if they could pin my head the eye gouge becomes a threat. But if i don't let them it is more of an irritation.

i mean if they are in mount and have both thumbs in i am in serious trouble.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Yeah guess it does, but you are loosing me in terminology. Maybe put in another term for me please.



most of my post is pretty unimportant.
this is the face crush.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Due to oxygen deprivation. What it is like 15 minutes or so? Yes some real nasty permutations.



Umm... no... you will be dead in far less than that. 
Without blood to the brain, damage will start in just 3-4 minutes. Damage, in this case, mean death of brain tissue. Same thing that happens in a stroke, except it's not confined to a relatively small area the way most strokes are.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Where?  Where do you run around choking people and causing them to freeze in fear and not fight you back.  If your that good why are you not a professional fighter you could just walk in the ring slap on the WWE choke and boom you win



Well i am not allowed to do that choke. And if i was then the other guy would be as well.

You are un chokeable yourself aren't you?

So you should use your super powers for your own ring career.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Nope, two handed grip is harder, two hands are stronger than one, you can compress the trachea with both your thumbs with a two handed grip.



go find something heavy that has a handle Try to lift it with your two thumbs.

then just lift it with one hand.


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## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Umm... no... you will be dead in far less than that.
> Without blood to the brain, damage will start in just 3-4 minutes. Damage, in this case, mean death of brain tissue. Same thing that happens in a stroke, except it's not confined to a relatively small area the way most strokes are.



Crikey, no wonder it I did not know that at 13. My grandad died of a second stroke  3 to 4 minutes. Guess I am thinking of a fellow member too.


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## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> most of my post is pretty unimportant.
> this is the face crush.



Damn I wish I had known of that long ago. Used to put the forearm under the chin, but mostly took the neck and dropped them.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 6, 2015)

Since we are talking about choke, here is an ancient assassin technique. You can do it with your arm.


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## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since we are talking about choke, here is an ancient technique. You can do it with your arm.



Interesting, but what is going on at the neck?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 6, 2015)

I don't think I'm likely to walk up behind someone and attack them...

Unless they say something mean about me online, of course... :rofl:


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Interesting, but what is going on at the neck?



You can't see it very clearly, but he's got a rope around his neck.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Interesting, but what is going on at the neck?


May be both air and blood won't be able to reach to your brain. Your feet are off the ground. Your hands can't reach to your opponent. It's a helpless position when some one attacks you from behind like this.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> You can't see it very clearly, but he's got a rope around his neck.



Rope, what rope?? Jeez Louise, I need an eye test.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be both air and blood won't be able to reach to your brain. Your feet are off the ground. Your hands can't reach to your opponent. It's a helpless position when some one attacks you from behind like this.



Thanks, you could have mentioned the rope though


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Rope, what rope?? Jeez Louise, I need an eye test.



Maybe someone used an ineffective eye gouge on you and you didn't notice. Because it's not effective.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 6, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't think I'm likely to walk up behind someone and attack them...
> 
> Unless they say something mean about me online, of course... :rofl:


You can also 

- stand in front of your opponent, 
- move in through his side door, and 
- reach to this back door.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since we are talking about choke, here is an ancient assassin technique. You can do it with your arm.



I have used that (sort of) to take people out of clubs. Reverse guillotine.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 6, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can also
> 
> - stand in front of your opponent,
> - move in through his side door, and
> - reach to this back door.



And whip out the rope that I'm carrying, wrapped around my waist...

But then I'll only have one hand to choke them with, otherwise my pants will fall down.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Maybe someone used an ineffective eye gouge on you and you didn't notice. Because it's not effective.



Sod off, that is not funny


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Thanks, you could have mentioned the rope though


You can use your arm too. If you just keep "dragging your opponent backward", there will be very little that he can do until his is out.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> You can't see it very clearly, but he's got a rope around his neck.



sorry i missed the rope. That is a belt strangle. Ultimately a shoulder throw. But you just hang them there.

you can do it with your gi belt without killing someone. It is not very pleasant though.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can use your arm too. If you just keep "dragging your opponent backward", there will be very little that he can do until his is out.








This is a different throw but the same sort of concept.

your one without the rope starts off with a close line entry. And yeah it works. I have done both.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 6, 2015)

You can use foot sweep to pass your opponent's leg, use arm jam to pass his arm, If you are shorter than him, you use your arm to wrap around his waist and "hip throw" him backward. If you are taller than him, you use your arm to wrap around his neck and choke him.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can use your arm too. If you just keep "dragging your opponent backward", there will be very little that he can do until his is out.



Yeah, and more besides going backwards. That is pretty much the goal, get them on the deck!


----------



## K-man (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> did the person who taught you the effects of the eye gouge have any personal experience with it?


Only someone with no understanding of eye gouging could ask such a question.
Eye-gouging - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


----------



## Steve (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Still pretty much lost on what a blood choke is?


it's pressure to the sides of the neck, constricting the blood flow to the brain.  Will make you go nighty night in about 3 to 5 seconds.  I was put to sleep with a carotid choke once on a take down.  It was a baseball bat choke.  The guy took me down and I was out before I hit the mat.  It was that fast.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

K-man said:


> Only someone with no understanding of eye gouging could ask such a question.
> Eye-gouging - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia



See i would have said a person who does not have practical experience with eye gouging does not understand it.

but then i don't have a qualification i just have done it had it done to me and worked with guys who have done it and had it done to them.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Well i am not allowed to do that choke. And if i was then the other guy would be as well.


Lol if your scared say so


> You are un chokeable yourself aren't you?


Nope but I am un-paralizable (if thats even a word).  Ive never froze.  Ive never been choked out but Im sure its possible just not likely 


> So you should use your super powers for your own ring career.


Naa I dont play games


----------



## K-man (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Look if they could pin my head the eye gouge becomes a threat. But if i don't let them it is more of an irritation.
> 
> i mean if they are in mount and have both thumbs in i am in serious trouble.


Some one in a mount with both thumbs in makes you an incompetent grappler. If he had both thumbs in I doubt he is trying to gouge. Gouging he would have one or two fingers in and removing the eyeball. Let's get serious. There is a poke in the eye and there is an eye gouge. Both are nasty, one is permanent. If you can still see you haven't been eye gouged.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can use foot sweep to pass your opponent's leg, use arm jam to pass his arm, If you are shorter than him, you use your arm to wrap around his waist and "hip throw" him backward. If you are taller than him, you use your arm to wrap around his neck and choke him.



Almost any take the back move would do it.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

K-man said:


> Some one in a mount with both thumbs in makes you an incompetent grappler. If he had both thumbs in I doubt he is trying to gouge. Gouging he would have one or two fingers in and removing the eyeball. Let's get serious. There is a poke in the eye and there is an eye gouge. Both are nasty, one is permanent. If you can still see you haven't been eye gouged.



You have beet told the wrong thing about eye gouges. And are now passing that on to me.

pretty sure they just have to go for the eye. It doesn't have to pop out before it is classed as an eye gouge.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

Steve said:


> it's pressure to the sides of the neck, constricting the blood flow to the brain.  Will make you go nighty night in about 3 to 5 seconds.  I was put to sleep with a carotid choke once on a take down.  It was a baseball bat choke.  The guy took me down and I was out before I hit the mat.  It was that fast.



Oh blinking hell, would you please stop blinding me with BJJ terminology  Please. 3 - 5 seconds, that sounds like impossible to me. That quick would suggest a neck break.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Oh blinking hell, would you please stop blinding me with BJJ terminology  Please. 3 - 5 seconds, that sounds like impossible to me. That quick would suggest a neck break.



how long did it take gene lebell in that video?


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> you get a patch to wear on your uniform if that guy chokes you out.



reposted.


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## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> how long did it take gene lebell in that video?



No idea, I have a pretty strict boringometer. Plus I have no dedicated line to stream.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You have beet told the wrong thing about eye gouges. And are now passing that on to me.
> 
> pretty sure they just have to go for the eye. It doesn't have to pop out before it is classed as an eye gouge.


You have been told the wrong thing about eye gouges and are now passing it along to us


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## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> reposted.



Staged. He does not have the bearing imho.


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## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Staged. He does not have the bearing imho.



fair enough.


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## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> You have been told the wrong thing about eye gouges and are now passing it along to us



Ah good evening


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Ah good evening


You too sir


----------



## K-man (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> See i would have said a person who does not have practical experience with eye gouging does not understand it.
> 
> but then i don't have a qualification i just have done it had it done to me and worked with guys who have done it and had it done to them.


ROFL. So you work in an environment where everyone walks around with a white stick or a seeing eye dog. 

Do an eye gouge on the door and I'll guarantee you'll spend years a in less than salubrious environment and that's without considering civil damages.

Let's be truthful, I doubt anyone on MT has actually eye gouged anyone.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

K-man said:


> ROFL. So you work in an environment where everyone walks around with a white stick or a seeing eye dog.
> 
> Do an eye gouge on the door and I'll guarantee you'll spend years a in less than salubrious environment and that's without considering civil damages.
> 
> Let's be truthful, I doubt anyone on MT has actually eye gouged anyone.



Agree. Going for the eyes is a reprehensible act. You would have to be some #### to do so imho.


----------



## K-man (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You have beet told the wrong thing about eye gouges. And are now passing that on to me.
> 
> pretty sure they just have to go for the eye. It doesn't have to pop out before it is classed as an eye gouge.


So what is the truth about eye gouges? Eye gouging is like choking. You don't have to take it to the end point. But the truth is, it would be quite difficult to eye gouge with the thumb as you need to get behind the eyeball to remove it.  In reality it is a million to one shot that we would ever need to do this in real life.

You are talking about competition rules.


----------



## K-man (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Agree. Going for the eyes is a reprehensible act. You would have to be some #### to do so imho.


Quite the contrary. Going for the eyes is a very valid form of defence. Remember, I'm not coming at this from a sporting perspective. If you were a small woman being attacked the eyes are a legitimate target. Also to escape certain chokes you can attack the eyes.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Agree. Going for the eyes is a reprehensible act. You would have to be some #### to do so imho.



He was biting me at the time.


----------



## Steve (Jan 6, 2015)

@Transk53. Seriously.  Nap time in just a few seconds.    If you were local, I'd offer to demonstrate.  And it doesn't hurt and isn't even uncomfortable if applied correctly.  And you wake up a little disoriented, hopefully not having crapped your pants.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Almost any take the back move would do it.


Yes! A simple "arm drag" will work on the wrestling mat.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

K-man said:


> ROFL. So you work in an environment where everyone walks around with a white stick or a seeing eye dog.
> 
> Do an eye gouge on the door and I'll guarantee you'll spend years a in less than salubrious environment and that's without considering civil damages.
> 
> Let's be truthful, I doubt anyone on MT has actually eye gouged anyone.



you make a lot of guarantees.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 6, 2015)

Steve said:


> @Transk53. Seriously.  Nap time in just a few seconds.    If you were local, I'd offer to demonstrate.  And it doesn't hurt and isn't even uncomfortable if applied correctly.  And you wake up a little disoriented, hopefully not having crapped your pants.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That was a game among teens at on time.  Making each other pass out to get a quick high


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> you make a lot of guarantees.


Kinda like your amazing power to paralyze people with one hand


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

K-man said:


> So what is the truth about eye gouges? Eye gouging is like choking. You don't have to take it to the end point. But the truth is, it would be quite difficult to eye gouge with the thumb as you need to get behind the eyeball to remove it.  In reality it is a million to one shot that we would ever need to do this in real life.
> 
> You are talking about competition rules.



so you say never having done it.

competition rules for eyegouges and c chokes?


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

K-man said:


> Quite the contrary. Going for the eyes is a very valid form of defence. Remember, I'm not coming at this from a sporting perspective. If you were a small woman being attacked the eyes are a legitimate target. Also to escape certain chokes you can attack the eyes.



Hey, I don't agree. But that is just my belief that the eyes are a no no. Anyway, I have given advice to women to grab for the bollocks. Even grab or kick. This came from my ex head doorwomen. As far as I am concerned, and no disrespectful attitude here, her voice is sound. It is reprehensible


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Kinda like your amazing power to paralyze people with one hand



not at all. I don't make guarantees. I have said what i did and what happened.

not what i haven't done and think will happen like k man is saying and like you are supporting him on.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

Steve said:


> @Transk53. Seriously.  Nap time in just a few seconds.    If you were local, I'd offer to demonstrate.  And it doesn't hurt and isn't even uncomfortable if applied correctly.  And you wake up a little disoriented, hopefully not having crapped your pants.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yeah sure you would, and it would no doubt be fun  However, I choose when I sleep


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> He was biting me at the time.



So? He was still open. No excuse!


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> not at all. I don't make guarantees. I have said what i did and what happened.
> 
> not what i haven't done and think will happen like k man is saying and like you are supporting him on.


AND Im saying your wrong and full of


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> So? He was still open. No excuse!



fair enough


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> AND Im saying your wrong and full of



I did get that impression and look you are welcome to your opinion.

for what it is worth.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I did get that impression and look you are welcome to your opinion.
> 
> for what it is worth.



Hey Bear, stop baiting, we all have our opinions, we would not be human.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Hey Bear, stop baiting, we all have our opinions, we would not be human.



he is fun to bait though. He gets all enraged and comes up with cool smilies.

look if he treats me seriously i will return the favor. But i am not his punching bag.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> he is fun to bait though. He gets all enraged and comes up with cool smilies.
> 
> look if he treats me seriously i will return the favor. But i am not his punching bag.



You are leaving yourself open, think about SD for a moment. They are closing the distance.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> he is fun to bait though. He gets all enraged and comes up with cool smilies.


Whos enraged?  IfI were mad I wouldnt use smileys


> look if he treats me seriously i will return the favor.


Start acting like you deserve to be treated seriously 


> But i am not his punching bag.


yeah you kinda are


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> You are leaving yourself open, think about SD for a moment. They are closing the distance.



there is no defence. There is attack and counter attack.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> there is no defence. There is attack and counter attack.



Rubbish, you cannot counter without substance. Counter attack is opposing force!


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Whos enraged?  IfI were mad I wouldnt use smileys
> 
> Start acting like you deserve to be treated seriously
> 
> yeah you kinda are



i don't think they are the friendliest of smileys. And that is fine you just keep on being you.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Rubbish, you cannot counter without substance. Counter attack is opposing force!



probably going to be worth its own thread but. Can you explain that?


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> i don't think they are the friendliest of smileys. And that is fine you just keep on being you.


Better?


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> probably going to be worth its own thread but. Can you explain that?



Yes I can drop bear. I face some twat, I observe, he throws, I react on experience.


----------



## K-man (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> you make a lot of guarantees.


BBC News - Tina Nash eye-gouge attacker Shane Jenkin jailed for life

Father of boxing champion Tyson Fury jailed for gouging a man s eye out after a 12 year feud over a bottle of beer - Manchester Evening News

Long jail term for eye-gouging attack - Courtnews.co.nz Courtnews.co.nz

I think there is enough case law to guarantee it.


----------



## K-man (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> so you say never having done it.
> 
> competition rules for eyegouges and c chokes?


Sure I admit, I have never taken out anyone's eyes. Then again I have never popped an eardrum, I have never broken anyone's arm, I have never dislocated anyone's shoulder and I have never broken anyone's neck either. I have never shot anyone and I have never used a knife on anyone.

That doesn't mean I haven't been taught to do all of those things.

I have also trained to put my aircraft down in an emergency. Fortunately I haven't had to use that skill but it worked for my wife when she needed it. We trained what to do in an underwater emergency, never expecting to use it. The training worked in zero visibility in a silted up submarine. It worked again when my wife's air supply failed at 25 metres.

But I suppose martial arts are different. Nothing we train will work if we haven't already used it in real life. Have I got that right?


----------



## K-man (Jan 6, 2015)

Oh! I almost forgot the rules bit.



> *Fouls*
> As set out by the Association of Boxing Commissions:[7]
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## tkdwarrior (Jan 6, 2015)

That is why you train just in case. Yeah the law can really muck you up when you had to do what you have to do to defebd yoyrself or your loved ones, but when push comes to shove....

When you do gouge eyes, kick the privates, break bones wherever those bones are without provocation....that is a whole different world.

Makes us really aware of the responsibilities we as martial artists have. 

That is why as much as possible it is always best to stay out of trouble.


----------



## K-man (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Hey, I don't agree. But that is just my belief that the eyes are a no no. Anyway, I have given advice to women to grab for the bollocks. Even grab or kick. This came from my ex head doorwomen. As far as I am concerned, and no disrespectful attitude here, her voice is sound. It is reprehensible


I wouldn't give that advice to anyone. Groin grab without a huge yank probably isn't going to work. As for going for the eyes. Ask any woman if she was about to be raped and possibly killed if she would prefer that to surviving relatively unscathed and living with the knowledge that she blinded her potential killer. I reckon I know the answer already. 

So with no knowledge of your lady of the door, her advice might well be fine for the door but that advice has no place on the street.


----------



## Steve (Jan 6, 2015)

K-man said:


> BBC News - Tina Nash eye-gouge attacker Shane Jenkin jailed for life
> 
> Father of boxing champion Tyson Fury jailed for gouging a man s eye out after a 12 year feud over a bottle of beer - Manchester Evening News
> 
> ...


Skimming those articles, none of them look like self defense.  Do you think that would matter?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 6, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Oh blinking hell, would you please stop blinding me with BJJ terminology  Please. 3 - 5 seconds, that sounds like impossible to me. That quick would suggest a neck break.



3-5 seconds is an entirely reasonable time frame. Seriously.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

K-man said:


> BBC News - Tina Nash eye-gouge attacker Shane Jenkin jailed for life
> 
> Father of boxing champion Tyson Fury jailed for gouging a man s eye out after a 12 year feud over a bottle of beer - Manchester Evening News
> 
> ...



then there is enough case law to guarantee a punch kills you. You may want to re think your evidence there.

i am not saying that it is impossible to take a guys eye out.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 6, 2015)

K-man said:


> Sure I admit, I have never taken out anyone's eyes. Then again I have never popped an eardrum, I have never broken anyone's arm, I have never dislocated anyone's shoulder and I have never broken anyone's neck either. I have never shot anyone and I have never used a knife on anyone.
> 
> That doesn't mean I haven't been taught to do all of those things.
> 
> ...



if you do not train evidence based. You will develop inconsistencies and create misconceptions. Like you have now. You will pass on those misconceptions to the people you train. They will create their own and pass them on. From a small flaw in your untested theory. You will have a much bigger problem later on.


----------



## K-man (Jan 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> then there is enough case law to guarantee a punch kills you. You may want to re think your evidence there.
> 
> i am not saying that it is impossible to take a guys eye out.


Then I ask you to provide any evidence to support your claim. Without searching I would suggest there is not only no case law of the kind but as we all know, there is no guarantee that one punch will kill. There is ample evidence to show that a person can die or suffer permanent disability as a result of a punch. Even then, it is not normally the punch that kills but the damage caused by the head hitting the ground. 

So if there is 'case law' backing your claim it should be easy to find. Do you actually understand what case law is? At this stage in Australia there are new laws on one punch to try to stem the violence but much less case law. Very few cases have gone to court and until there are more with the associated appeals going to higher courts you haven't any case law.

So returning to my 'guarantee'. There is case law in the case of eye gouging and those convicted went to jail. That provides the precedent for future cases.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 7, 2015)

K-man said:


> Then I ask you to provide any evidence to support your claim. Without searching I would suggest there is not only no case law of the kind but as we all know, there is no guarantee that one punch will kill. There is ample evidence to show that a person can die or suffer permanent disability as a result of a punch. Even then, it is not normally the punch that kills but the damage caused by the head hitting the ground.
> 
> So if there is 'case law' backing your claim it should be easy to find. Do you actually understand what case law is? At this stage in Australia there are new laws on one punch to try to stem the violence but much less case law. Very few cases have gone to court and until there are more with the associated appeals going to higher courts you haven't any case law.
> 
> So returning to my 'guarantee'. There is case law in the case of eye gouging and those convicted went to jail. That provides the precedent for future cases.



ao you are saying i cant find three cases where a person died from a punch?

which is apparently enough evidence to suggest that it is not a punch unless they die. Mabye a fist poke or something.


----------



## K-man (Jan 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> if you do not train evidence based. *You will develop inconsistencies and create misconceptions. Like you have now. *You will pass on those misconceptions to the people you train. They will create their own and pass them on. From a small flaw in your untested theory. You will have a much bigger problem later on.


Please state what you believe is the misconception. You are speaking in riddles and making no sense. 

You have no formal MA training yet you know more than those of us who have trained for decades. How does that work?


----------



## K-man (Jan 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> ao you are saying i cant find three cases where a person died from a punch?
> 
> which is apparently enough evidence to suggest that it is not a punch unless they die. Mabye a fist poke or something.


Not at all. You claimed there was case law to support your case. So where is it? Newspaper reports are sufficient. 

And again, your second sentence makes no sense at all.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 7, 2015)

K-man said:


> Please state what you believe is the misconception. You are speaking in riddles and making no sense.
> 
> You have no formal MA training yet you know more than those of us who have trained for decades. How does that work?



ok. That a really hard correctly applied frontal choke is as easy to get out of as you believe.

i suggest you may have gotten out of a light choke not applied with intent. Which is easy.


You have no formal MA training yet you know more than those of us who have trained for decades. How does that work?[/QUOTE]

ok. That a really hard correctly applied frontal choke is as easy to get out of as you believe.

i suggest you may have gotten out of a light choke not applied with real intent.

"You have no formal MA training yet you know more than those of us who have trained for decades. How does that work"

honestly that would be your issue to address as i said. There is nothing i can do about that.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 7, 2015)

K-man said:


> Not at all. You claimed there was case law to support your case. So where is it? Newspaper reports are sufficient.
> 
> And again, your second sentence makes no sense at all.



Man jailed over Rye one-punch death


----------



## drop bear (Jan 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Man jailed over Rye one-punch death



One-punch death Craig Field pleads not guilty to murder


----------



## drop bear (Jan 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> One-punch death Craig Field pleads not guilty to murder



Raynor Manalad dies after alleged one-punch assault at Rooty Hill party


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> go find something heavy that has a handle Try to lift it with your two thumbs.
> 
> then just lift it with one hand.


If I am pushing my thumbs into someone's throat i am not trying to lift them up so I don't know what that would prove.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> See i would have said a person who does not have practical experience with eye gouging does not understand it.
> 
> but then i don't have a qualification i just have done it had it done to me and worked with guys who have done it and had it done to them.


What's to understand? Stick finger in eye, pull finger out, not much more than that really.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 7, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can also
> 
> - stand in front of your opponent,
> - move in through his side door, and
> - reach to this back door.


Sounds a bit rude.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> he is fun to bait though. He gets all enraged and comes up with cool smilies.
> 
> look if he treats me seriously i will return the favor. But i am not his punching bag.


Maybe you're his grappling dummy?


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> there is no defence. There is attack and counter attack.


There is no attack or counter attack there is only defense.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Raynor Manalad dies after alleged one-punch assault at Rooty Hill party


Out of all the victims on those three stories you posted all but one died of injuries as a result of their head hitting the ground.


----------



## K-man (Jan 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Man jailed over Rye one-punch death


Death was from the fall, not the punch.


> Mr Cassai fell straight backwards, *hitting his head on the pavement and fracturing his skull.* He died of his injuries at The Alfred hospital about 4pm on December 31.





drop bear said:


> One-punch death Craig Field pleads not guilty to murder


More difficult to find the cause of death. Nothing to say it was the punch.


> Justice Fullerton said after Mr Kane fell to the ground Field left the pub without checking on him and has never shown remorse for his actions.






drop bear said:


> Raynor Manalad dies after alleged one-punch assault at Rooty Hill party


Again the facts aren't stated in the article you are quoting. Nothing in the article giving the cause of death. 



> It is alleged Garth punched Mr Manalad once to the head shortly after 1am on Saturday, *causing him to fall onto the concrete*, after the 21-year-old nursing graduate tried to intervene during a fight between his accused attacker and his girlfriend at a party in Minchinbury.
> .....
> Mr Manalad, who was also 21, suffered extensive bleeding on the brain and died in Westmead Hospital the next day.


Extensive bleeding of the brain could be as a result of a punch but is far more likely to be from the head striking the ground.

However his solicitor made a claim that means that you might have difficulty with case law because even his solicitor said there is none.


> Garth's lawyer, Riyad El-Choufani, told the court Garth should be granted bail because he needed full access to his legal team to build a defence to *the charges, which are new and have no legal precedent.*



If anyone gets into a fight and one party falls to the ground hitting his head it is likely that the assailant will go to jail. But nothing here supports your claim of case law proving that one punch kills. The case law is that if you get in a fight and someone dies you will go to jail unless you are the innocent party. I can guarantee the likelihood of that too. 

My 'guarantee' is if you gouge someone's eye you will go to jail and I gave you three examples where the courts sent people to jail for gouging eyes. 



drop bear said:


> then *there is enough case law to guarantee a punch kills you.* You may want to re think your evidence there.


Perhaps you need to rethink your evidence!


----------



## K-man (Jan 7, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Out of all the victims on those three stories you posted all but one died of injuries as a result of their head hitting the ground.


And the third one just states that the guy was left unconscious on the ground without care. Could have died from head injury or could have choked.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 7, 2015)

K-man said:


> And the third one just states that the guy was left unconscious on the ground without care. Could have died from head injury or could have choked.


The one I was referring to died because his jaw was broken the jaw bone severed an artery.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 7, 2015)

K-man said:


> I wouldn't give that advice to anyone. Groin grab without a huge yank probably isn't going to work. As for going for the eyes. Ask any woman if she was about to be raped and possibly killed if she would prefer that to surviving relatively unscathed and living with the knowledge that she blinded her potential killer. I reckon I know the answer already.
> 
> So with no knowledge of your lady of the door, her advice might well be fine for the door but that advice has no place on the street.



Yeah point taken!


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 7, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> 3-5 seconds is an entirely reasonable time frame. Seriously.



Don't disagree. Did not know it could be that quick. Guess I watch too much TV.


----------



## tkdwarrior (Jan 7, 2015)

Hmmmm....ok if you are in a situation where you had to defend yourself, you do what you have to do. I wonder if a woman or anyone who is about to be attacked thinks of the legal conseqeunces or how to preserve herself/themselves from harm? 

As I say if you do not want to be whacked,  stay clean do not bother or hassle people. Very simple. If you do then be sure you will be able to live with the consequences of your actions.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 7, 2015)

tkdwarrior said:


> Hmmmm....ok if you are in a situation where you had to defend yourself, you do what you have to do.


depends on the situation.  Sometimes its safer to just comply sometimes its safer to just run and sometimes you need to fight


> I wonder if a woman or anyone who is about to be attacked thinks of the legal conseqeunces or how to preserve herself/themselves from harm?


Im sure some think about it.  Unfortunately there is alot of misconceptions about whats legal and whats not 


> As I say if you do not want to be whacked,  stay clean do not bother or hassle people. Very simple. If you do then be sure you will be able to live with the consequences of your actions.


Very simple but sometimes even innocent people are made victims


----------



## drop bear (Jan 7, 2015)

K-man said:


> And the third one just states that the guy was left unconscious on the ground without care. Could have died from head injury or could have choked.



regardless. You show three examples where eye gouging sent people to jail. Three examples do not mean everybody who eyegouges someone goes to jail. Just they have in three instances.

And if they did go to jail every time you could not really support teaching it could you?


----------



## drop bear (Jan 7, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> If I am pushing my thumbs into someone's throat i am not trying to lift them up so I don't know what that would prove.



it would prove that it is a terrible grip. I tried to lift a kettle bell with it. And couldn't. So no wonder people break out of it around the neck.


----------



## Steve (Jan 7, 2015)

there are a few issues here.  First, I don't think a news report of someone going to jail is necessarily "case law".  I'm not a lawyer, so take this for what it's worth, but my impression is that case law are cases that are establishing or changing existing precedent.   A random story about a dude who attacks his girlfriend isn't case law.  At least, I don't think it is.

Second, that an eye gouge or a punch were associated with a case doesn't mean the eye gouge or the punch were salient to the decision.  A news report about a guy who assaults his girlfriend without provocation and pokes her eye out doesn't make the eyegouge salient. He could have cut her finger off or in any other way maimed her and the results would be the same. The salient point is that he wasn't defending himself. He was attacking her.  A quick glance at all of these news links you both shared, none of them involve self defense, that I could see.

I really don't think this entire line of discussion is very meaningful or sensible.  It's just chaff muddying up the discussion.  That's my opinion, at least.


----------



## Aiki Lee (Jan 7, 2015)

This thread is starting to make less and less sense the more I read it.
I'm following ballen0351 and K-man's arguments okay, but I'm understanding the points some of the rest of you are trying to say.

It sounds like people are not distinguishing between an eye poke and an eye gouge. Eye gouges cause serious damage and eye pokes are irritating best used as a set up tactic.

The choking thing has me lost; it sounds like some of you are talking about RNC and others about "Frankenstein" choke where you coke with two hands from the front.

Would people mind summarizing their views?


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 7, 2015)

Himura Kenshin said:


> This thread is starting to make less and less sense the more I read it.
> I'm following ballen0351 and K-man's arguments okay, but I'm understanding the points some of the rest of you are trying to say.
> 
> It sounds like people are not distinguishing between an eye poke and an eye gouge. Eye gouges cause serious damage and eye pokes are irritating best used as a set up tactic.
> ...



For me it is quite simplistic, but probably somewhat naive. I don't think that eye gouges in any context. Messing with someone's sight is just plain wrong. That is my concerted viewpoint!


----------



## drop bear (Jan 7, 2015)

Himura Kenshin said:


> This thread is starting to make less and less sense the more I read it.
> I'm following ballen0351 and K-man's arguments okay, but I'm understanding the points some of the rest of you are trying to say.
> 
> It sounds like people are not distinguishing between an eye poke and an eye gouge. Eye gouges cause serious damage and eye pokes are irritating best used as a set up tactic.
> ...



Ok. For me it started with neck attacks and i mentioned that i have had a lot of success with c chokes.

it was then mentioned that there are easy escapes. Which i disagreed with.

it was suggested the two handed Frankenstein is a stronger technique which i disagreed with. 

and that i can be effectively enough eye gouged from that position to release the choke. Which i disagreed with.

otherwise there seemed to be a lot of semantics.


----------



## K-man (Jan 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> regardless. You show three examples where eye gouging sent people to jail. Three examples do not mean everybody who eyegouges someone goes to jail. Just they have in three instances.
> 
> And if they did go to jail every time you could not really support teaching it could you?


Then show me one instance of an eye gouge where the person did not go to jail. Remember, we are not talking about poking someone in the eye or pushing with the thumbs in the eye socket. We are talking of actually eye gouging.

But that is beside the point. I gave three illustrations to demonstrate 'case law'. What I showed was three instances where an attacker eye gouged a victim. I know of no instances where a victim has gone to jail for eye gouging their attacker.

I justify teaching it by saying in a serious situation it is a valid technique, especially for females. I teach several techniques that can be lethal. Doesn't mean people are necessarily going to use those techniques, but they have them available in an emergency.


----------



## K-man (Jan 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Ok. For me it started with neck attacks and i mentioned that i have had a lot of success with c chokes.
> 
> it was then mentioned that there are easy escapes. Which i disagreed with.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure anyone suggested an eye gouge against the choke.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jan 7, 2015)

K-man said:


> I'm not sure anyone suggested an eye gouge against the choke.



No one did, what they did do was say they doubt the eye gouge story is true


----------



## drop bear (Jan 7, 2015)

K-man said:


> Perhaps it might be fair to say it might paralyse an untrained person because his attention is on the potential danger. You see it all the time when you train newbies. They will try to take your hands off by grabbing the wrists. They can't believe how simple it is when the roles are reversed and you reach for the eyes.
> 
> I'm with *ballen*. Grab my throat and make sure you protect your eyes and groin. One way or the other you are going to wish you hadn't done it.



yeah cant imagine who mentioned eye attacks.


----------



## Steve (Jan 7, 2015)

K-man said:


> Then show me one instance of an eye gouge where the person did not go to jail. Remember, we are not talking about poking someone in the eye or pushing with the thumbs in the eye socket. We are talking of actually eye gouging.
> 
> But that is beside the point. I gave three illustrations to demonstrate 'case law'. What I showed was three instances where an attacker eye gouged a victim. I know of no instances where a victim has gone to jail for eye gouging their attacker.
> 
> I justify teaching it by saying in a serious situation it is a valid technique, especially for females. I teach several techniques that can be lethal. Doesn't mean people are necessarily going to use those techniques, but they have them available in an emergency.


Can you show me an example of a victim successfully eye gouging an attacker?  I think it would be interesting to see a news story about a person who successfully fended off an attacker with an eye gouge.  I looked but maybe my google-fu is not as strong as yours.
For what it's worth, I'm still not sure you're using the term "case law" correctly, but I would welcome correction from someone who knows better.

Not sure if k-man is still ignoring me or not, so if anyone else could find a relevant example, I'd appreciate it.


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## drop bear (Jan 7, 2015)

Steve said:


> Can you show me an example of a victim successfully eye gouging an attacker?  I think it would be interesting to see a news story about a person who successfully fended off an attacker with an eye gouge.  I looked but maybe my google-fu is not as strong as yours.
> For what it's worth, I'm still not sure you're using the term "case law" correctly, but I would welcome correction from someone who knows better.
> 
> Not sure if k-man is still ignoring me or not, so if anyone else could find a relevant example, I'd appreciate it.



Cookies must be enabled. The Australian

found one against a shark.


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## Tez3 (Jan 7, 2015)

K-man said:


> Then show me one instance of an eye gouge where the person did not go to jail. Remember, we are not talking about poking someone in the eye or pushing with the thumbs in the eye socket. We are talking of actually eye gouging.
> 
> But that is beside the point. I gave three illustrations to demonstrate 'case law'. What I showed was three instances where an attacker eye gouged a victim. I know of no instances where a victim has gone to jail for eye gouging their attacker.
> 
> I justify teaching it by saying in a serious situation it is a valid technique, especially for females. I teach several techniques that can be lethal. Doesn't mean people are necessarily going to use those techniques, but they have them available in an emergency.




I know a case where the person who did gouge out eyes didn't go to prison. He was a soldier in Aldershot Garrison, he got angry at his mate, attacked him, beat him and gouged his eyes out, literally. That soldier is now blind and the attacker is not in prison, he's in a secure mental hospital (Broadmoor) as he's regarded as dangerously insane, he didn't go to trial because he was 'sectioned' and it's very unlikely he will ever be released.


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## Steve (Jan 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Cookies must be enabled. The Australian
> 
> found one against a shark.


LOL. Well, that's interesting.  Not quite what I was looking for, but it's good to know that if I'm attacked by a shark, an eye gouge works.   And, as a bonus, it doesn't look like this guy was prosecuted for assault.  So, win-win.


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## K-man (Jan 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> yeah cant imagine who mentioned eye attacks.


Oh boy! You really don't get anything do you? Reaching for the eyes is nothing to do with eye gouging, not that I would bother to do that against a front choke anyway. It is an option but not the best option.


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## K-man (Jan 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Cookies must be enabled. The Australian
> 
> found one against a shark.


Lol! Good one, but even then I would have said that the shark was the attacker and the swimmer the victim. As I said in my post I am not aware of a victim being jailed. Even so, in this instance it doesn't say it was an eye gouge. It was an eye poke. I think you would have great difficulty eye gouging a four metre Great White.

But in a circular way this has backed up what was said in the first place. I said that attacking the eyes was a valid technique. You said it wasn't and you could withstand someone with his thumbs in your eyes. That makes you far stronger than the shark and everyone else I know. Congratulations. Perhaps we could get the crew out from _Fight Science _to document it.


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## K-man (Jan 7, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I know a case where the person who did gouge out eyes didn't go to prison. He was a soldier in Aldershot Garrison, he got angry at his mate, attacked him, beat him and gouged his eyes out, literally. That soldier is now blind and the attacker is not in prison, he's in a secure mental hospital (Broadmoor) as he's regarded as dangerously insane, he didn't go to trial because he was 'sectioned' and it's very unlikely he will ever be released.


I stand corrected and suitably chastised.


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## Tez3 (Jan 7, 2015)

K-man said:


> I stand corrected and suitably chastised.




I should think so!
It was a horrible case, he was brought up to the psyche unit at Catterick first, he had two huge Fijian soldiers with him at all times, ( he wasn't Fijian it's just they are big handy lads, I expect you have seen plenty of them) and an armed escort to Broadmoor. I think to look at it unemotionally the only way the eye gouge worked was because he was rabid and attacked in a frenzy, so the victim didn't stand a chance. It's a far more difficult thing to do than I think people imagine, not because there's an emotional holding back but because the eyes are actually more protected than people think. If you are attacked you want easy techniques not difficult ones.


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## K-man (Jan 7, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I should think so!
> It was a horrible case, he was brought up to the psyche unit at Catterick first, he had two huge Fijian soldiers with him at all times, ( he wasn't Fijian it's just they are big handy lads, I expect you have seen plenty of them) and an armed escort to Broadmoor. I think to look at it unemotionally the only way the eye gouge worked was because he was rabid and attacked in a frenzy, so the victim didn't stand a chance. It's a far more difficult thing to do than I think people imagine, not because there's an emotional holding back but because the eyes are actually more protected than people think. If you are attacked you want easy techniques not difficult ones.


Interesting that *Drop Bear* brought up about going for the eyes to make a shark release you, something I've kept at the back of my mind when diving. We have big salt water crocodiles in Northern Australia, our number one predator. I heard people say and thought that you could do the same thing with them until a guy talking about the crocs pointed out that salties can actually retract their eyes in and back behind the bone. Moral of the story, don't tangle with either.


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## Tez3 (Jan 7, 2015)

K-man said:


> Interesting that *Drop Bear* brought up about going for the eyes to make a shark release you, something I've kept at the back of my mind when diving. We have big salt water crocodiles in Northern Australia, our number one predator. I heard people say and thought that you could do the same thing with them until a guy talking about the crocs pointed out that salties can actually retract their eyes in and back behind the bone. Moral of the story, don't tangle with either.




Seems eyes aren't best bit to aim for on a shark  Poking Sharks Eyes and Noses - HowStuffWorks


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## K-man (Jan 7, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Seems eyes aren't best bit to aim for on a shark  Poking Sharks Eyes and Noses - HowStuffWorks


Actually, I find swimming with sharks one of the most rewarding experiences you can have diving. Sharks are just like Ferraris ... beautiful, fast and potentially lethal. They are graceful and swim without effort yet when they push the button their acceleration is phenomenal. For them to allow you to swim with them is a privilege that most people could never understand.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 7, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> For me it is quite simplistic, but probably somewhat naive. I don't think that eye gouges in any context. Messing with someone's sight is just plain wrong. That is my concerted viewpoint!



I disagree with your view then. While it is extremely unlikely that most people would need to resort to that level of violence, I see no moral reason preventing this tactic to secure your own safety.



drop bear said:


> Ok. For me it started with neck attacks and i mentioned that i have had a lot of success with c chokes.
> it was then mentioned that there are easy escapes. Which i disagreed with.
> it was suggested the two handed Frankenstein is a stronger technique which i disagreed with.
> and that i can be effectively enough eye gouged from that position to release the choke. Which i disagreed with.
> otherwise there seemed to be a lot of semantics.



Then I supposed I do not understand what you mean by "c choke". Is it this? 



 Please keep in mind I selected the first short example of the attack I believe people are discussing. I did not pick what I would have considered the best demonstration of such an attack.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 7, 2015)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I disagree with your view then. While it is extremely unlikely that most people would need to resort to that level of violence, I see no moral reason preventing this tactic to secure your own safety.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you practice something you use only one percent of the time, you will be tempted to use it in more cases. There is a moral issue here. You are playing to close to the tree of knowledge, there Eve. LOL


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## K-man (Jan 7, 2015)

Looks like it might even work against a rapist.

Woman gouges eyes of attempted rape suspect to escape Astoria at - KPTV - FOX 12


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## K-man (Jan 7, 2015)

And I'm not the only one who teaches it.
Women learn self-defense techniques in UTPD class The Daily Texan


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## Steve (Jan 7, 2015)

K-man said:


> Looks like it might even work against a rapist.
> 
> Woman gouges eyes of attempted rape suspect to escape Astoria at - KPTV - FOX 12


I thought an eye gouge resulted in the loss of an eye.   Did she gouge his eyes or just poke them.? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Buka (Jan 7, 2015)

What a great thread!


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## ballen0351 (Jan 7, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> If you practice something you use only one percent of the time, you will be tempted to use it in more cases. There is a moral issue here. You are playing to close to the tree of knowledge, there Eve. LOL


Nonsense.  I go to the range and shoot all the time.  I've never felt the urge to shoot someone.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 7, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Nonsense.  I go to the range and shoot all the time.  I've never felt the urge to shoot someone.


On the contrary, Spokane Police has a real bad reputation for helping people commit suicide. Local Tribal Authorities are helping them to stop that crap; so, you anecdotal experience is just that.


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## drop bear (Jan 7, 2015)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I disagree with your view then. While it is extremely unlikely that most people would need to resort to that level of violence, I see no moral reason preventing this tactic to secure your own safety.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



no i would have called that your Frankenstein choke.

c choke is one handed.  Anchored on either like a Thai grapple or a wrestling clinch. And in my case i cut in behind the wind pipe so that i have a better handle. 

so you grab a bit further back. Slide the fingers forward across the neck. Which gives you some slack in the skin. The shoot your fingers forwards again behind the wind pipe and try to make them touch. (which you can get pretty close)


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## Buka (Jan 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> no i would have called that your Frankenstein choke.
> 
> c choke is one handed.  Anchored on either like a Thai grapple or a wrestling clinch. And in my case i cut in behind the wind pipe so that i have a better handle.
> 
> so you grab a bit further back. Slide the fingers forward across the neck. Which gives you some slack in the skin. The shoot your fingers forwards again behind the wind pipe and try to make them touch. (which you can get pretty close)



Might be the easiest countered technique there ever was. For some, anyway.


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## drop bear (Jan 7, 2015)

Buka said:


> Might be the easiest countered technique there ever was. For some, anyway.



might be.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Seems eyes aren't best bit to aim for on a shark  Poking Sharks Eyes and Noses - HowStuffWorks


If you can turn the shark upside down it will go into some kind of trance and just float there not moving. I saw it demonstrated in a video once.

The Shark Trust - Tonic Immobility

Now I know how to defend against a Tiger shark.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 8, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Nonsense.  I go to the range and shoot all the time.  I've never felt the urge to shoot someone.


Not even after reading posts on MT?


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## ballen0351 (Jan 8, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> On the contrary, Spokane Police has a real bad reputation for helping people commit suicide. Local Tribal Authorities are helping them to stop that crap; so, you anecdotal experience is just that.


What?  Where is the pancake bunny


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## K-man (Jan 8, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> What?  Where is the pancake bunny


OK buddy. Take it easy. I'm here.


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## Transk53 (Jan 8, 2015)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I disagree with your view then. While it is extremely unlikely that most people would need to resort to that level of violence, I see no moral reason preventing this tactic to secure your own safety.



Sure, no probs.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 9, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> If you practice something you use only one percent of the time, you will be tempted to use it in more cases. There is a moral issue here. You are playing to close to the tree of knowledge, there Eve. LOL



I disagree. I believe what you are saying only is the case if I train eye gouging as an instinctual response to being attacked. Attacks to the eyes are trained strategically not instinctually. Just because I know a target is available does not mean I will immediately seize it.

Also "Eve"?


drop bear said:


> no i would have called that your Frankenstein choke.
> 
> c choke is one handed.  Anchored on either like a Thai grapple or a wrestling clinch. And in my case i cut in behind the wind pipe so that i have a better handle.
> 
> so you grab a bit further back. Slide the fingers forward across the neck. Which gives you some slack in the skin. The shoot your fingers forwards again behind the wind pipe and try to make them touch. (which you can get pretty close)



I'm sorry. I still have a difficult time imagining the situation you described. Could you post a video of what you are talking about, or if you already did that, point out where the example was?


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## drop bear (Jan 9, 2015)

drop bear said:


> what does this prove?
> 
> nothing. But i thought it was pretty funny.
> 
> is he drunk?



the choke looks pretty much like above.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 11, 2015)

Thank you for clearing it up and providing that example again.

I would disagree with the effectiveness of the hold; it could be "paralyzing" to those who are not used to such aggression, but there are numerous simple defenses to break that grip so long as one does not panic.


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## drop bear (Jan 11, 2015)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Thank you for clearing it up and providing that example again.
> 
> I would disagree with the effectiveness of the hold; it could be "paralyzing" to those who are not used to such aggression, but there are numerous simple defenses to break that grip so long as one does not panic.



what would those defences be?


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## Transk53 (Jan 11, 2015)

drop bear said:


> what would those defences be?



The human mind is the first line of defense. It called flight or fight! Everything flows from there. Defense is individual. Technique applied from there.


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## Zero (Jan 11, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> The human mind is the first line of defense. It called flight or fight! Everything flows from there. Defense is individual. Technique applied from there.


That's a great post and response, it's something which I completely agree with but also totally disagree with at the same time!!  : )  Nice one!


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## Transk53 (Jan 11, 2015)

Zero said:


> That's a great post and response, it's something which I completely agree with but also totally disagree with at the same time!!  : )  Nice one!



So do you mean that one still has to be in the zone via training?


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## Zero (Jan 11, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> So do you mean that one still has to be in the zone via training?


No I didn't but that actually can often be the case (so good point), not for everyone, some people this comes naturally to, for whatever reason (maybe the environment they grew up in or maybe "just because") and some people struggle with this immensely. For most training so that one is prepared on both a physical/technique level and mental level/mind-set (which is what I take from your reference to "in the zone") is needed or at least goes a long way to make their self defence actions effective and successful.

I agreed with you in that the mind is the best defence one has.

I agreed with the "defense is individual" in that it will always come down to the individual.  But the response itself may not be so individual at all (as Bruce Lee said, possibly quoting someone else in turn, "we all have only two arms and two legs").

I disagreed because (as said above), for most, unless they have trained in effective techniques to negate such a choke, the "fight or flight" and "everything flowing from there" just won't cut it on its own.   And the technique that is applied needs to be effective and the appropriate one(s) for the situation.


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## Transk53 (Jan 11, 2015)

Zero said:


> No I didn't but that actually can often be the case (so good point), not for everyone, some people this comes naturally to, for whatever reason (maybe the environment they grew up in or maybe "just because") and some people struggle with this immensely. For most training so that one is prepared on both a physical/technique level and mental level/mind-set (which is what I take from your reference to "in the zone") is needed or at least goes a long way to make their self defence actions effective and successful.
> 
> I agreed with you in that the mind is the best defence one has.
> 
> ...



Yeah cool Zero. I see what you mean now. Thankyou for explaining that, you very knowledgeable to me. I have gaps obviously, but you're replied provide that bridge as it were.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 11, 2015)

drop bear said:


> what would those defences be?


Learn not to piss off the cops.


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## Zero (Jan 12, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Learn not to piss off the cops.


Especially those, or anyone else that is, that outweigh you by at least 200 pounds...


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## Transk53 (Jan 12, 2015)

Zero said:


> Especially those, or anyone else that is, that outweigh you by at least 200 pounds...



Yeah, may get a doughnut thrown at you lol


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## Zero (Jan 12, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Yeah, may get a doughnut thrown at you lol


No way, that kind of guy never gives up the donut dude!!  : )


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 12, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Learn not to piss off the cops.


Actually if you piss off a cop enough, you can walk on the crime. I don't commit a whole tot of crime, but I have a close relative that swallowed the Key to his car and laughed at the cops. They got so mad and broke into his car to find POUNDS of drugs, but to bad they were so mad, he was only out the cost of the drugs.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 12, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Oh blinking hell, would you please stop blinding me with BJJ terminology  Please. 3 - 5 seconds, that sounds like impossible to me. That quick would suggest a neck break.



Trust me, it can definitely happen that fast. Seen it many times.


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## Transk53 (Jan 12, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Trust me, it can definitely happen that fast. Seen it many times.



Yeah no, as with DD, I don't disagree. Never been in that position before. Was a bit hard to visualize. Been in plenty of head locks, but no where near peeps know. It is food for though, so I have at least had another little snippet come my way. So I find that pleasing.


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## tkdwarrior (Jan 12, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Actually if you piss off a cop enough, you can walk on the crime. I don't commit a whole tot of crime, but I have a close relative that swallowed the Key to his car and laughed at the cops. They got so mad and broke into his car to find POUNDS of drugs, but to bad they were so mad, he was only out the cost of the drugs.


What do you mean by this?The supposed evidence, "pounds of drugs", was not accepted in court?


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 12, 2015)

tkdwarrior said:


> What do you mean by this?The supposed evidence, "pounds of drugs", was not accepted in court?


Yes, if the police break the law, the arrest is invalid, and the perp walks. It is a well known trick.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 12, 2015)

I have to tell you he went to prison, because he made a name for himself. It was only a matter of doing right the next time.


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## tkdwarrior (Jan 12, 2015)

I see anyway....


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## drop bear (Jan 12, 2015)

Well if we are doing police stepping over the line stories. One of our local cops got caught water boarding someone.

Which was a bit embarrassing at the time.


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## Transk53 (Jan 12, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Well if we are doing police stepping over the line stories. One of our local cops got caught water boarding someone.
> 
> Which was a bit embarrassing at the time.



Now that is supprising. Bet he thrown off the force then?


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## drop bear (Jan 12, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Now that is supprising. Bet he thrown off the force then?








did time for it i think.


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## Buka (Jan 12, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Trust me, it can definitely happen that fast. Seen it many times.



So have I. Too many times to remember, actually.


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