# Edged Weapons



## MJS (Oct 31, 2007)

****WARNING- GRAPHIC CONTENT****

I came across this clip on youtube. Its a clip from the "Surviving Edged Weapons" tape that features Tuhon Leo Gaje. 

There are some very important things mentioned in this clip. It just goes to show how dangerous a knife is, especially in the hands of someone who knows how to use one. Certainly an important area for Correction Officers and LEOs, as well as those who train in the Martial Arts. 

After seeing the tape, as well as seeing Tuhon in person, it made me re-evaluate my knife defenses. This is the main reason why I look towards the FMAs for my knife and stick work. IMHO, no better place to go, than to an art that uses those tools as the main focal point of the art.

Mike


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## Blotan Hunka (Oct 31, 2007)

MJS said:


> ****WARNING- GRAPHIC CONTENT****
> 
> I came across this clip on youtube. Its a clip from the "Surviving Edged Weapons" tape that features Tuhon Leo Gaje.
> 
> ...


 
Agreed. But I posit that its the man(woman) thats dangerous. A good sturdy bic pen in his hand (or a fork) would be just as dangerous.


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## dubljay (Oct 31, 2007)

That is an excellent video!  Thanks for posting that.  I think it really shows how the average joe can underestimate the threat of a knife.  Personally after having experienced some of the FMA knife/stick work I realized that a knife was far more dangerous than I had thought.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 31, 2007)

Anyone who thinks of training with edged weapons should watch that


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## MJS (Oct 31, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Agreed. But I posit that its the man(woman) thats dangerous. A good sturdy bic pen in his hand (or a fork) would be just as dangerous.


 

Agreed!!  Pen, pencil, fork, screwdriver...certainly don't under-estimate those.


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## MJS (Oct 31, 2007)

dubljay said:


> That is an excellent video! Thanks for posting that. I think it really shows how the average joe can underestimate the threat of a knife. Personally after having experienced some of the FMA knife/stick work I realized that a knife was far more dangerous than I had thought.


 
A few weeks ago, I was at a seminar with Bram Frank, another well know FMA fellow.  The stuff he was showing was more knife on knife, but still...I was thinking, "Damn, this guy knows how to use a knife!!!"

Good times and I walked away with alot! 



tshadowchaser said:


> Anyone who thinks of training with edged weapons should watch that


 
Absolutely!  There is alot of fluff out there and when I see that, then look at a clip like this, I can't help but shake my head.


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## newGuy12 (Oct 31, 2007)

My gosh those knives are dangerous!


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## tellner (Oct 31, 2007)

Going to have to disagree with you BH. A pen or fork is not nearly as effective as a knife or a gun. That's why soldiers carry guns and there are more knife-fighting videos than pen-fighting videos. The person makes a lot of difference, but the tool is important.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 31, 2007)

Nice Video MJS!


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## Blindside (Oct 31, 2007)

I remember seeing that video when I was 17 or 18, but I recall Dan Inosanto's section against the attempted arrests better than Tuhon Gaje.  Even then, I remember thinking "hey moron, don't wrestle with the guy!" 

Having just spent another weekend with Tuhon Gaje, I must say that if I ever felt stupid enough to go after the man, I'd be much happier if he had a pen than a knife.  It probably wouldn't help, but in the 3 seconds before that pen lodges in my brain, I'd feel much better about the situation. 

Lamont


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## Blotan Hunka (Oct 31, 2007)

Exactly, tools are just tools, some are more effective than others but its the intent to use them that matters. While all have the potential to be lethal, its the person thats "dangerous".


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## still learning (Oct 31, 2007)

Hello, Just about all of us have some kind of knife self-defence techniques that is taught to us.

In case we cannot escape....better to learn something, than nothing at all.

This video is a good example "WHY"..we should NEVER try to defend against a knife attack...if we can escape!  or use things around us to equalize the situations.  

Our Coats/Jackets, shoes, leather belts, use any object around you to throw or use as a weapon.

One method we use is face our back of the hands/arms for defence instead of standard fighting positions of our arms. (Palms facing you)
Reason? ...getting cut on the back of the arms is less harmful than getting cut in the veins of your wrist. (plus less change of cutting the more important mucscles too).

Conclusion: after watching the Video? ....ESCAPE IS THE BEST DEFENCE!

"C" cut....most experts use this method to cut you to bleed....learn about this more........

Aloha,  Expect to get cut in every knife encounter.  If cut three things will happen....one lots of blood, a ride to the hospital or the morgue? ..can be all three too!

PS:  Always keep your knife sharp!   ...easier to cut tomatoes!


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## arnisador (Oct 31, 2007)

Yes, very educational!


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## searcher (Oct 31, 2007)

I, also, am going to start looking at my knife defenses and those of other styles.   I am going to have to re-write my entire knife defense program.

I am still a firm believer in the use of a handgun against a knife, if you have one on you.


And a great point on ANY type of sharp or edged weapon.   I have been throwing pens through thick cardboard for a few years now.   Being able to use anything as a weapon is a much needed skill for everyone.


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## tellner (Oct 31, 2007)

SL, I'm not sure where you're coming from, but it's a very strange place indeed. Never try to defend yourself? What do you do when you can't outrun the other guy or it's someone who has a reason to go after you personally or there's someone else to defend? Do you just roll over and die?


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## jks9199 (Nov 1, 2007)

tellner said:


> SL, I'm not sure where you're coming from, but it's a very strange place indeed. Never try to defend yourself? What do you do when you can't outrun the other guy or it's someone who has a reason to go after you personally or there's someone else to defend? Do you just roll over and die?


I'd have to agree that as a loose rule, the best way to defend against a knife (if you don't have a gun or other way to offset the knife's inherent advantages) is to run away.  But, as you rightly point out, that's not always possible.  

Anytime you go empty hand (or even armed with a knife or short to medium stick) against a knife -- you can expect to be cut.  But I'll take being cut over being dead any day!  And if you get close enough to cut me, you're close enough for me to do some serious harm in return.

Knife defense isn't easy, and there are lots of tool out there to help you de-fantasize it.  It's highly unlikely that you can crescent kick a knife out of someone's hand without incurring major injury yourself... but that doesn't mean every disarm is a fantasy.  Work 'em; experiment with 'em and see what works or doesn't work.  Because if you have to do it for real, you won't have any room for experimenting.

Unless, of course, you want to be the guest of honor at a funeral!


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## newGuy12 (Nov 1, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Anytime you go empty hand (or even armed with a knife or short to medium stick) against a knife -- you can expect to be cut.  But I'll take being cut over being dead any day!  And if you get close enough to cut me, you're close enough for me to do some serious harm in return.



I've heard teachers say that if you are attacked by multiple attackers, or an attacker with a gun or a knife, that is deadly force.  I will admit that I dismissed the attack with multiple attackers or a knife as being less than deadly force.

After seeing that movie, I now say I understand.  An attack with a knife is a threat to your life.  So, you can use lethal techniques in response, with no moral problem.  That's for sure.

I of course hope that I am never attacked, much less attacked with a knife.  The knife now demands my respect!


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## tellner (Nov 1, 2007)

newGuy12 said:


> I've heard teachers say that if you are attacked by multiple attackers, or an attacker with a gun or a knife, that is deadly force.  I will admit that I dismissed the attack with multiple attackers or a knife as being less than deadly force.



No offense, but you were living in a really dangerous fantasy world. Eight guys with clubs can beat a tiger to death. Three or four of them can kick you into a meat patty without much difficulty. And if a knife isn't deadly force I'm not sure what is.

Glad you got a wake up call that didn't involve exploratory surgery.


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## newGuy12 (Nov 1, 2007)

tellner said:


> No offense, but you were living in a really dangerous fantasy world. Eight guys with clubs can beat a tiger to death. Three or four of them can kick you into a meat patty without much difficulty. And if a knife isn't deadly force I'm not sure what is.
> 
> Glad you got a wake up call that didn't involve exploratory surgery.


Me too.


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## jks9199 (Nov 1, 2007)

newGuy12 said:


> I've heard teachers say that if you are attacked by multiple attackers, or an attacker with a gun or a knife, that is deadly force. I will admit that I dismissed the attack with multiple attackers or a knife as being less than deadly force.
> 
> After seeing that movie, I now say I understand. An attack with a knife is a threat to your life. So, you can use lethal techniques in response, with no moral problem. That's for sure.
> 
> I of course hope that I am never attacked, much less attacked with a knife. The knife now demands my respect!


 
Deadly force is *any* force likely to cause serious injury or death to the person facing it.  Serious injury typically means broken bones, serious bleeding, maiming, and the like.  The calculus includes things like numbers of attackers, relative age and fitness, special training (like martial arts skills), weapons, weather conditions, and lots more.  It's complicated; there have been several threads in recent memory about it where it's discussed at length.  (Check the Self Defense sub-forum)  But the bottom line is that a club or bat IS lethal force.  If I can dig them up, I'll provide some very clear object lessons to that effect from some old cases around here.

By it's very definition, a knife IS a deadly weapon.  Some laws may argue about the nature of a knife as a concealed weapon, getting into arcana like blade length, whether or not it's got a fixed blade or hand guard, and so on...  But, when it's used on a person, it's always a deadly weapon.


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## still learning (Nov 1, 2007)

tellner said:


> SL, I'm not sure where you're coming from, but it's a very strange place indeed. Never try to defend yourself? What do you do when you can't outrun the other guy or it's someone who has a reason to go after you personally or there's someone else to defend? Do you just roll over and die?


 
Hello, I a little loss here? ...nor sure what you are asking? We practice knife defence,...showing the back of our arms...came from our Professor a few years ago at a Seminar.  (If we are unarm) or just one arm is the other has a knife.

We practice alot of different ways to defend against the knife, takeways, takedowns, locks, breaks as well as how to use the knife in a fight....hence "C" cutting,weaving,etc....(NOTE: our club and gun defense is almost the same as the knife defences...just minior changes here and there...)

Most experts including our Professor...mentions if one can escape first...this is best way to survival......If NO choice find things to equalize the situation in your flavor!

Thank-you.....I am not very good at putting ALL my thoughts down correctly and rightly....by the many misunderstood feedbacks.....SORRY!

Just trying to share my thoughts..........Aloha ( I lost my knife my pocket knife, the one you can open with one hand...short blade...need to get another one....left handed one too!

Aloha

PS: VERBAL JUDO....can help in those situations too!  ( Out running the other person....usually is a good win-win uless they know who you are and where you live or can find you? )

Palms facing you or palms out? ....experiment with this method of defending against a knife? ...Which side is better to received the cut? ....both ways still gives you a chance to do your techniques....


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## SKB (Nov 1, 2007)

Does anyone have the video clip showing him covering 21 or so feet and stabbing the cop before he can pull his gun?

What is a "C" cut? All those fancy names for cuts and ideas of how to hurt or kill some on with a knife are funny. If someone is going to try and kill you with a knife they will put it in you or cut you wide open with it. All they fancy stuff goes out the window in reality.


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## arnisador (Nov 2, 2007)

SKB said:


> What is a "C" cut?



A cut that moves in a continuous C-shaped path over the torso. I've heard it described as a way to cut the straps on a backpack or vest, for example.


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## MJS (Nov 3, 2007)

SKB said:


> Does anyone have the video clip showing him covering 21 or so feet and stabbing the cop before he can pull his gun?


 
I don't.  Unfortunately, the link I posted it only a portion of the Edged Weapons video.  What you're looking for is on the full video tape.



> What is a "C" cut? All those fancy names for cuts and ideas of how to hurt or kill some on with a knife are funny. If someone is going to try and kill you with a knife they will put it in you or cut you wide open with it. All they fancy stuff goes out the window in reality.


 
IMO, the average person will do what you describe...try to stab you with that knife.  However, if someone knows how to use a knife, they just may try that 'fancy stuff', considering that from what I've seen, the average MA school covers the basic defenses.  Many times they neglect the fact that the attacker has two hands and will most likely use his other hand in his assault on you.  The FMAs are big into using both hands.

Mike


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 3, 2007)

> Does anyone have the video clip showing him covering 21 or so feet and stabbing the cop before he can pull his gun?


 
I do not have that one but have seen one put out I belive by the Chec police, I'll see if I can find it later today, if no one comes up with one


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## tellner (Nov 3, 2007)

It's called the Tueller Drill. It's a staple of firearms training. Two students are placed seven yards apart. One has a knife. The other has a holstered pistol. On a signal the first tries to close and stab. The second tries to draw and fire. The one with the knife almost always succeeds. Other studies have shown that when the knife wileder goes on his own timing the dangerous range increases significantly.


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