# Just started Karate and I have a starter question



## MosheBiton (Aug 10, 2018)

Hi everyone,

My name is Moshe, I've started practicing Karate with a teacher two month ago.

I have a test on Kata Kihon in few weeks, which is pretty easy but I do not understand one thing - how do you determine the direction you turn. I will explain:

The first move in the kata is downward defense and you do it after taking a 90 degree turn from the left, why not 270 degrees from the right? I know that specifically on this move, it's pretty obvious but on the 17th move, it isn't.

Thank you,
Moshe B.


----------



## pdg (Aug 10, 2018)

The moves are determined by the kata, for whatever reason during it's creation.

Direction of turn (or anything else) is to do with whatever the person who made the kata felt gave the best flow, transition or aesthetics.

To be honest, this is the sort of thing your teacher should be teaching - especially so if you're being tested based on these things.


----------



## pdg (Aug 10, 2018)

Oh, but as a very general thing with many exceptions - the direction is led by the following technique.

I don't know the kata (not a karate person) but I'd lay money on the transition from position 16 to 17 being a 270° turn.



Edit: looking closer at the image, there's even an arrow showing foot movement...


----------



## Michele123 (Aug 10, 2018)

16 to 17 should be a long turn over your left shoulder. In most katas (at least in Shutokan) you always turn toward the center of your kata. So if you can picture the image your feet draw while you perform your kata, find the middle spot and when you turn, you should always turn with your front passing that spot. 

In this kata, you are basically follow a capital “I” so facing the center of the letter is the way you turn. 

Clear as mud?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 10, 2018)

MosheBiton said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> My name is Moshe, I've started practicing Karate with a teacher two month ago.
> 
> ...


Try the block that youre supposed to do there turning the other way...its not particularly effective. And one of the key aspects of that kata is the continuous repitition of the two blocks.


----------



## _Simon_ (Aug 11, 2018)

G'day Moshe, welcome to the forum!

I'm not too sure I understand the question sorry... do you mean why is there the 270 degree turn at certain points, but 90 degrees at the start? Hard to say exactly, but it's a basic kata designed to teach basic movement patterns, all in forward stance. It's good they have that transition. And while it's a tricky turn the 270 degree one, it helps to teach your body to stay upright with good posture, and maintain your centre point so to speak whilst turning.

And awesome you've started karate, let us know how you go


----------



## MosheBiton (Aug 11, 2018)

Michele123 said:


> 16 to 17 should be a long turn over your left shoulder. In most katas (at least in Shutokan) you always turn toward the center of your kata. So if you can picture the image your feet draw while you perform your kata, find the middle spot and when you turn, you should always turn with your front passing that spot.
> 
> In this kata, you are basically follow a capital “I” so facing the center of the letter is the way you turn.
> 
> ...



I think I get it. It's the only explanation that makes sense. So, to recap, I should look at the "symbol" the kata creates and mark the middle of it, then the turns should be towards that middle.


----------



## Michele123 (Aug 11, 2018)

MosheBiton said:


> I think I get it. It's the only explanation that makes sense. So, to recap, I should look at the "symbol" the kata creates and mark the middle of it, then the turns should be towards that middle.



Basically, yes. At least that’s how it is in Shutokan. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MosheBiton (Aug 11, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> G'day Moshe, welcome to the forum!
> 
> I'm not too sure I understand the question sorry... do you mean why is there the 270 degree turn at certain points, but 90 degrees at the start? Hard to say exactly, but it's a basic kata designed to teach basic movement patterns, all in forward stance. It's good they have that transition. And while it's a tricky turn the 270 degree one, it helps to teach your body to stay upright with good posture, and maintain your centre point so to speak whilst turning.
> 
> And awesome you've started karate, let us know how you go



Even if it meant to teach the basics, it was designed in someway, and I find it very hard to believe that it was designed without any thought. There are many other ways of teaching the basic that in my opinion, are better than the Kihon but they chose it anyway, which means, it should follow the other Katas construction. "MICHELE123" gave a reasonable explanation; I checked a few Katas and it really works.


----------



## MosheBiton (Aug 11, 2018)

Michele123 said:


> Basically, yes. At least that’s how it is in Shutokan.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I'm not sure what Karate style I'm learning; I'll check it in the next lesson. Your explanation works well for our Katas, Thanks


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 11, 2018)

MosheBiton said:


> There are many other ways of teaching the basic that in my opinion, are better than the Kihon but they chose it anyway,



How long have you been training karate to come to this conclusion? Oh that's right …………….


MosheBiton said:


> I've started practicing Karate with a teacher *two month ago.*







MosheBiton said:


> I'm not sure what Karate style I'm learning;



Why would you start learning karate without knowing what style it is? I'm sorry that sounds harsh but the style is important in many ways. Knowing the history, the type of style it is informs your training, how can you train something you know nothing about?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 11, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> How long have you been training karate to come to this conclusion? Oh that's right …………….
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because not everyone cares. If youre just doing it for fun, who cares where it comes from? I would bet the place is just called 'Joe's karate' or something similar


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 11, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Because not everyone cares. If youre just doing it for fun, who cares where it comes from? I would bet the place is just called 'Joe's karate' or something similar




If they don't care they will make poor students. Imagine coming into train just 'anything' and finding out you are in full contact Gojo Ryu or that being a small person you would have done better in Wado Ryu rather than Shotokan and vice versa.
If it's called 'Joe's karate' and nothing else, the instructor hasn't explained anything about the style then that is a big red light, whether you are 'just doing it for fun' or not.

It's much more fun ( and safer) if you actually go to a proper karate school.


----------



## _Simon_ (Aug 12, 2018)

MosheBiton said:


> Even if it meant to teach the basics, it was designed in someway, and I find it very hard to believe that it was designed without any thought. There are many other ways of teaching the basic that in my opinion, are better than the Kihon but they chose it anyway, which means, it should follow the other Katas construction. "MICHELE123" gave a reasonable explanation; I checked a few Katas and it really works.



Ah yep, it does have that "I" or sideways "H" pattern, and some say it was designed that way so that it ends in the same spot, and also for symmetry (training both sides of the body, and it's mostly symmetrical). Alot of other katas do use this pattern, but not all of them. But alot do work alot of balance/symmetry in them.

I wasn't sure of the question sorry bud


----------



## now disabled (Aug 12, 2018)

I do not want to sound like the kill joy in this (if I do it unintentional) 

I do get why you want to know all students who start in martial arts want to run before they even can crawl let alone walk ...again not being nasty ... but stick with it as the longer you do the more things will make sense and then onve you have reached a certain level then start to question ...to me then you will have to base to question from, gain the base then ask the questions why as at the bottom it could be viewed more as well arrogance (I am not saying you are btw) and even being impertinent ...just a thought  and not a crit of you personally


----------



## MosheBiton (Aug 12, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> How long have you been training karate to come to this conclusion? Oh that's right …………….
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I didn't have a choice... There is only one school of karate in my area...

About what you said of me being newbie - I may have just started Karate, but I do know one thing or two about studying. Karate hasn't changed even though the science about the brain, specifically, about how human learn, changed a lot recently. So, I prefer not to conclude that the Katas are built without any link to the other Katas.

* Just so we are on the same page; my only indication of Karate study is my school. As of now, I don't have broader knowlege than this.


----------



## MosheBiton (Aug 12, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I do not want to sound like the kill joy in this (if I do it unintentional)
> 
> I do get why you want to know all students who start in martial arts want to run before they even can crawl let alone walk ...again not being nasty ... but stick with it as the longer you do the more things will make sense and then onve you have reached a certain level then start to question ...to me then you will have to base to question from, gain the base then ask the questions why as at the bottom it could be viewed more as well arrogance (I am not saying you are btw) and even being impertinent ...just a thought  and not a crit of you personally





now disabled said:


> I do not want to sound like the kill joy in this (if I do it unintentional)
> 
> I do get why you want to know all students who start in martial arts want to run before they even can crawl let alone walk ...again not being nasty ... but stick with it as the longer you do the more things will make sense and then onve you have reached a certain level then start to question ...to me then you will have to base to question from, gain the base then ask the questions why as at the bottom it could be viewed more as well arrogance (I am not saying you are btw) and even being impertinent ...just a thought  and not a crit of you personally



I totally understand you but I do prefer to know what I am doing. It may allow me to study Karate much faster. In the class, I do follow my teacher and his method of teaching.


----------



## MosheBiton (Aug 12, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Because not everyone cares. If youre just doing it for fun, who cares where it comes from? I would bet the place is just called 'Joe's karate' or something similar



The place is run by Yoel Be Harush:
יואל בן הרוש - אומנויות לחימה (use google translate). He is 6th Dan and 5 times Israeli Champion.

I study to learn how to defend my self.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 12, 2018)

MosheBiton said:


> I totally understand you but I do prefer to know what I am doing. It may allow me to study Karate much faster. In the class, I do follow my teacher and his method of teaching.




There is no fast track my friend and at the start trying go deeper can be counter productive


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 12, 2018)

A couple of things to help along a new student...

The kata pictured is most commonly known as Taikyoku 1/Shodan/Sono Ichi (all different ways of numbering it number 1).  Taikyoku can be translated as “taking the overview.”

It is less commonly know as Kihon kata, although that name is somewhat popular and definitely not obscure.  Kihon means basics or fundamentals.  So it’s translated as “basic kata” or “fundamental kata.”

Keeping both of those names in mind, it becomes apparent that the kata is typically taught to beginners to introduce them to kata and help teach more advanced kata easier once that kata has been performed successfully and consistently.

What the movements mean and why those movements were put in there to begin with has no definitive answer.  There are no books, videos, etc. by the developers of this and every other kata that predates it telling us what, why, and how with any depth at all.  So most people have to reverse engineer kata and come up with functional interpretations (bunkai).

Regarding why the turns are 90 degrees, 180 degrees, and 270 degrees, IMO it’s because your opponent will start at different places relative to you, and/or you’re moving them to different places.  If you’re really interested in why, here’s a pretty good intro video.  It’s not the exact kata you’re asking about, but it’s quite similar.





Different schools have different interpretations and reasons for doing kata.  Some do them as simply agility exercises, some do them solely for competition or rank advancement, some do them as a tool from which all of their techniques, strategy, etc. come from them.  And everywhere in between. The best advice I have and everyone else here has had is listen to your teacher.  He/she should be able to tell you why they do kata.

You’ve just started, so don’t get too hung up on anything.  Your teacher probably won’t get too in depth with explanations simply because a lot of it will go over your head at this point.


----------



## dvcochran (Aug 12, 2018)

MosheBiton said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> My name is Moshe, I've started practicing Karate with a teacher two month ago.
> 
> ...


It is based on the attack the kata is designed for. Turning to the left is quicker and the block is coming from the correct direction for the attack. I believe the 17th move is purposed for another attacker.


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 12, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> It is based on the attack the kata is designed for. Turning to the left is quicker and the block is coming from the correct direction for the attack. I believe the 17th move is purposed for another attacker.


Or you could use the “low block” as a joint lock or throw.  Turning 270 degrees while you’ve got the opponent locked up with the proper technique, footwork, mechanics, etc. could be effective.  If all you’re doing is low blocking a kick from someone at your right shoulder (or would it be left shoulder in this instance?), a 90 degree turn and block would be significantly quicker, more effective, and less risky; looking at it as an opponent in front of you (or pretty close to that) and forcing him off in a completely different direction makes more sense to me.

Everyone’s got an opinion.  None are inherently right or wrong, except when you can’t get it to work no matter what.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 12, 2018)

MosheBiton said:


> The place is run by Yoel Be Harush:
> יואל בן הרוש - אומנויות לחימה (use google translate). He is 6th Dan and 5 times Israeli Champion.
> 
> I study to learn how to defend my self.




Cheers, luckily I don't need Google to translate 

The thing is you don't 'study' karate or any martial art, you 'do' it. it's not an academic subject you study in the way you do maths or geography but a very physical learning, you may know learning but martial arts is always going to be different, you can't compare it with classroom learning. Your profile says your 25 so I'm wondering why you haven't learnt any Krav Maga already for SD. 
(Just as a side note my mother was taught KM in Israel at about the time of the War of Independence, she was Haganah )


----------



## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 12, 2018)

I am curious, how many of these Kihons do you learn, 3 or 5. I ask, because if you do, then this pattern, will be seen a lot in your system of Karate. Also, have you heard of any forms in your school called, Hein or Pinan? These forms have various names inside various systems, but the pattern is still pretty similar and the names should be able to tell you, what style you are training in, maybe. 

The pattern and the turn vary between systems, but in the system I train in, 

Standing in a forward stance, right foot forward, left foot back.
Take your left rear foot, circle the foot to your right  behind you. Continue until your left foot is slightly past your right foot.
At this time, your upper body, (left shoulder) will be rotating towards the rear, the same direction as your left foot.
Finish the motion by completing the turn towards the right or left ( I say r/l simply because we do this at both the top and bottom of the kata) if you execute this move at the top of the I pattern then you would spin to the right. At the bottom to the left. 

Then you would execute a downward Hammer strike ( or block )

*Right/Left-Direction being from the starting position

This might be similar to what you do, but I will stress the fact that there could be some differences and you should direct your questions, to your Instructor. Not to say that advice from others isn't useful, but you will want to make sure you ask the person that is directly teaching you.

Good Luck and I hope you enjoy your experience in Karate. I know it has helped me and it is something I value till this day.

Have a great work


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 12, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Why would you start learning karate without knowing what style it is? I'm sorry that sounds harsh but the style is important in many ways. Knowing the history, the type of style it is informs your training, how can you train something you know nothing about?


In my experience, that's not all that uncommon. In fact, in NGA schools, it's become common practice to include that as a question on the first written test, just to make sure nobody can get past that point without paying attention to it. I've even had serious students who didn't really pay much attention to the history material I provided.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 12, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Cheers, luckily I don't need Google to translate
> 
> The thing is you don't 'study' karate or any martial art, you 'do' it. it's not an academic subject you study in the way you do maths or geography but a very physical learning, you may know learning but martial arts is always going to be different, you can't compare it with classroom learning. Your profile says your 25 so I'm wondering why you haven't learnt any Krav Maga already for SD.
> (Just as a side note my mother was taught KM in Israel at about the time of the War of Independence, she was Haganah )


That's being a bit pedantic, Tez. Most folks I know in MA will actually refer to "studying" an art.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 13, 2018)

MosheBiton said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> My name is Moshe, I've started practicing Karate with a teacher two month ago.
> 
> ...




Something just dawned on me ...if your located where I think you are then do you not have mandatory military service still ? 

If you do then going by a few of the guys I've run into ummm you will get taught how to defend yourself and pretty methodically. 

It might be an idea as @Tez3 suggested look into Krav as your in the home of it so to speak


----------

