# MMA is the fad right now I believe



## PhotonGuy

From what I've seen in the martial arts world. At one time grappling was viewed with skepticism. Lots of people thought striking arts were more effective than grappling arts because a striker could knock out a grappler. Then in the 90s, due to people such as the Gracies, grappling became very big. A good grappler was shown to be able to tie a striker up and neutralize their striking ability as the Gracies did very effectively. Now MMA is very big. MMA or Mixed Martial Arts combines the two. The way I see it, every style has their strengths and weaknesses. MMA is really good in that it makes you well rounded, you learn how to strike and grapple and how to combine it. but a weakness I see in MMA is that you can spread yourself too thin and become a "jack of all trades master of none." So, personally I think MMA is good if you already have experience in other martial arts. If you already have a good background in a striking art and a grappling art and you want to combine them.


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## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> From what I've seen in the martial arts world. At one time grappling was viewed with skepticism. Lots of people thought striking arts were more effective than grappling arts because a striker could knock out a grappler. Then in the 90s, due to people such as the Gracies, grappling became very big. A good grappler was shown to be able to tie a striker up and neutralize their striking ability as the Gracies did very effectively. Now MMA is very big. MMA or Mixed Martial Arts combines the two. The way I see it, every style has their strengths and weaknesses. MMA is really good in that it makes you well rounded, you learn how to strike and grapple and how to combine it. but a weakness I see in MMA is that you can spread yourself too thin and become a "jack of all trades master of none." So, personally I think MMA is good if you already have experience in other martial arts. If you already have a good background in a striking art and a grappling art and you want to combine them.



Ouch!


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## Tez3

Where to start.........


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## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> Where to start.........


I would say we start with striking as a goal, from there we can re-direct (slam people into walls and stuff), and finally we learn to grapple, It is the hardest, I think, but it is a base we need to cover. I think grapplers lose sight of the street aspect of their art sometimes, meaning, it should be your last resort. There are too many people involved to play "Cage Match" on the street, but it is a good skill to develop.


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## Dirty Dog

Tez3 said:


> Where to start.........



I find that a good old  is often the best place to start. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## drop bear

It used to be that you had to have a background in another art. Nowadays Not so much as mma schools create their own structured syllabus.

otherwise i Think it is quite good.


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## Mephisto

So whats your point photonguy? You didn't really tell us what you want from this thread, you didn't ask a question. Is MMA a fad? Maybe that should have been in the op. You make some good points. MMA may have silenced the grappling skeptics, of course some still ignore it as a very important range to train because "the streets", where you're always fighting a horde of people on asphalt covered with broken glass. I think mma has raised the bar as to what constitutes a good fighting system. It hasn't eliminated the need for striking specialists and grappling specialists. Mma may be popular right now but I'm not sure it qualifies as a fad. I suppose it means how you define a fad. Typically I think of a fad as something that reaches a peak of popularity than all but vanishes from the public eye. I don't think this will be the case with mma, it's popularity may decline some but I think it will still be quite visible in our culture. Just as boxing was once more popular and the popularity declined, but it has always been a presence and you'll see a boxing match on a a sports bar on any given weekend night. Like mma boxing set a precedent for the art of punching within its ruke set. You'd think with all the systems out there that punch another styke completely separate from boxing could enter the ring and give the boxers a run for their money but it's not the case. Boxing is still relevant and will remain that way.


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## drop bear

As far as the jack of all trades idea. You need to find quality specialists to either learn from or spar with. Which will make the individual aspects of your martial arts better.

It also makes those specialist styles better as well. It is a bit win. Win.


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## Transk53

Mmm, could have sworn fad was an ice lolly. Oh hang on, no that was a Fab ice lolly, like MMA. Lots of sugar, no stick.


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## Buka

I think MMA has gone way past any "fad" stage. And I believe it's still growing globally.


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## Andrew Green

drop bear said:


> It used to be that you had to have a background in another art. Nowadays Not so much as mma schools create their own structured syllabus.
> 
> otherwise i Think it is quite good.




This is the same way Kickboxing started in the west.  You did karate, then added boxing.  For a hobby level practitioner doing it all at once makes the most sense.  You don't need everything in wrestling, BJJ and Muay Thai for MMA.  A lot of the stuff in those "base" styles is not going to be useful in MMA.  Take the stuff that applies to MMA out of them, add in the specific things that are just relevant to MMA (ex G&P, cage/wall work, etc) and you have a complete system.  There is no reason to learn spider guard or low singles and a ton of other stuff that doesn't really apply.

For a pro trying to make a career out of it cross-training is going to have more benefit, but they have a lot more time to train and there is a point of diminishing returns.  But until the amateur side of the sport gets sorted out and can handle recreational practitioners and youth safely on a large scale most top level fighters are going to come in with a base in something else that they started competing in when they where young.


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## Tez3

I'm not sure grappling arts were ever viewed with scepticism, Judo has been going quite nicely in the UK at least since the late 19th century as well as local wrestling traditions and catch wrestling. Our native wrestling styles have been going for centuries. While I can only speak for the UK I believe it's much the same worldwide.
As for being a jack of all trades well no, an MMA fighter is a thing of it's own.
We have a tremendous amount of amateur fighters here who while fighting pro rules are what you call recreational fighters. They have a fight when they feel they want to. MMA has been going long enough here for newcomers into the sport are learning MMA as a whole rather than having a base art.


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## Danny T

MMA is still growing, is beyond being a fad, and has become a martial art training method in of its self. It will be with us for quite some time.


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## Kung Fu Wang

PhotonGuy said:


> "jack of all trades master of none."


Why do you want to learn the grappling art? Sometime you just don't want to meet your fist with your opponent's face. What's the option? You can either control your opponent while standing, or take him down and then control him on the ground. In either case, you can ask him if he is willing to stop bothering you.

Since you can test your grappling skill in safe environment, the grappling art will always be more popular than the striking art. The day that you realize that you can take your opponent down with full force, the day that you will like the grappling art.

Can you

- take your opponent down? You know you can.
- knock your opponent down? You may not too sure about it.


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## drop bear

Andrew Green said:


> This is the same way Kickboxing started in the west.  You did karate, then added boxing.  For a hobby level practitioner doing it all at once makes the most sense.  You don't need everything in wrestling, BJJ and Muay Thai for MMA.  A lot of the stuff in those "base" styles is not going to be useful in MMA.  Take the stuff that applies to MMA out of them, add in the specific things that are just relevant to MMA (ex G&P, cage/wall work, etc) and you have a complete system.  There is no reason to learn spider guard or low singles and a ton of other stuff that doesn't really apply.
> 
> For a pro trying to make a career out of it cross-training is going to have more benefit, but they have a lot more time to train and there is a point of diminishing returns.  But until the amateur side of the sport gets sorted out and can handle recreational practitioners and youth safely on a large scale most top level fighters are going to come in with a base in something else that they started competing in when they where young.



That is sort of time and pedigree. You are correct a six year old wont have come from a mma competition background. But might be bjjing. 

Having said that they are competing here at 14 i think.


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## drop bear

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why do you want to learn the grappling art? Sometime you just don't want to meet your fist with your opponent's face. What's the option? You can either control your opponent while standing, or take him down and then control him on the ground. In either case, you can ask him if he is willing to stop bothering you.
> 
> Since you can test your grappling skill in safe environment, the grappling art will always be more popular than the striking art. The day that you realize that you can take your opponent down with full force, the day that you will like the grappling art.
> 
> Can you
> 
> - take your opponent down? You know you can.
> - knock your opponent down? You may not too sure about it.



Striking is probably more popular here by the way. 

fighters were strikers.


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## drop bear

And as a side note you are not allowed to do mma as a school sport. 

we had a teacher that has tried.


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## RTKDCMB

The Yo Yo is a fad (an appropriate one since it goes away and comes back again periodically). MMA has been constantly round too long to be generally considered a fad. An individual can consider it one if they like to chop and change activities often.


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## Mephisto

Tez3 said:


> I'm not sure grappling arts were ever viewed with scepticism, Judo has been going quite nicely in the UK at least since the late 19th century as well as local wrestling traditions and catch wrestling. Our native wrestling styles have been going for centuries. While I can only speak for the UK I believe it's much the same worldwide.
> As for being a jack of all trades well no, an MMA fighter is a thing of it's own.
> We have a tremendous amount of amateur fighters here who while fighting pro rules are what you call recreational fighters. They have a fight when they feel they want to. MMA has been going long enough here for newcomers into the sport are learning MMA as a whole rather than having a base art.


You may not have experienced the skepticism toward the relevancy of grappling but it exists. Perhaps others will chime in and validate this from their experience too. One particularly hard headed poster here recently went on about how he or a true high level tkd master could easily handle a grappler. There are many who decry the benefits of grappling because it's "not good in the streets" allegedly. Many people still refuse to admit that a well rounded fighter needs some grappling knowedge especially in the needle ridden and broken glass covered streets!


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## drop bear

Mephisto said:


> You may not have experienced the skepticism toward the relevancy of grappling but it exists. Perhaps others will chime in and validate this from their experience too. One particularly hard headed poster here recently went on about how he or a true high level tkd master could easily handle a grappler. There are many who decry the benefits of grappling because it's "not good in the streets" allegedly. Many people still refuse to admit that a well rounded fighter needs some grappling knowedge especially in the needle ridden and broken glass covered streets!



and the belts as well. "you have been training five years and you are not a black belt? You cant be very good then"


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## jezr74

In my limited knowledge of MMA training, don't they focus on a few good moves of each category so to speak. eg. Strikes, Kicks, Grapples, Pins, etc.

I wouldn't call them jack of all trades, but have a focus group of moves that help in the cage. Of course, any style previous trained, or coached to use your strengths can still apply.

Also, agree with others. Not a fad.


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## Transk53

Transk53 said:


> Mmm, could have sworn fad was an ice lolly. Oh hang on, no that was a Fab ice lolly, like MMA. Lots of sugar, no stick.



You don't like ice lollies? Outrageous


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## Tez3

Mephisto said:


> You may not have experienced the skepticism toward the relevancy of grappling but it exists. Perhaps others will chime in and validate this from their experience too. One particularly hard headed poster here recently went on about how he or a true high level tkd master could easily handle a grappler. There are many who decry the benefits of grappling because it's "not good in the streets" allegedly. Many people still refuse to admit that a well rounded fighter needs some grappling knowedge especially in the needle ridden and broken glass covered streets!



I would say that scepticism is probably confined to the closed world of the internet warrior, I have seen the opposite on here too, that only grappling is the answer to everything. Out in the real world martial artists tend not to bother themselves with other arts and just get on with their own training.


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## Mephisto

Tez3 said:


> I would say that scepticism is probably confined to the closed world of the internet warrior, I have seen the opposite on here too, that only grappling is the answer to everything. Out in the real world martial artists tend not to bother themselves with other arts and just get on with their own training.


I train FMA and thus have a lot of friends that do it. Many of them also train RBSD. A lot of them have gotten the wrong idea about grappling. As you mentioned the opposite is true in many cases, I know some very close minded judo guys, but at least they test everything they do. My point was that mma did show that a striker can't rely on his striking ability alone to keep him from getting tied up in the clinch or taken down.


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## Tez3

Mephisto said:


> My point was that mma did show that a striker can't rely on his striking ability alone to keep him from getting tied up in the clinch or taken down.



That's one of those yes and no things, I've seen MMA fights that never went to the ground the entire fight and I've seen fights that had no stand up in. I think too many people's idea of MMA is gained just by watching the UFC which to me is a rather limited view. I've seen thousands of fights in over 15 years or so and I'm not sure that MMA proves a lot other than it's very good entertainment. Rather I should say people will use it to prove what they want, in many ways MMA is all things to all people. Grappling people will say as you said, it proves you need grappling, stand up people will say it proves you can fight off a grappler etc etc It does prove all those things of course which sounds like it's in danger of being an oxymoron but to be honest I wish people would see MMA as MMA rather than trying to use it to prove anything. It's full contact competition fighting in which fighters use techniques they find work for them in winning (hopefully!) fights.


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## Drose427

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why do you want to learn the grappling art? Sometime you just don't want to meet your fist with your opponent's face. What's the option? You can either control your opponent while standing, or take him down and then control him on the ground. In either case, you can ask him if he is willing to stop bothering you.
> 
> Since you can test your grappling skill in safe environment, the grappling art will always be more popular than the striking art. The day that you realize that you can take your opponent down with full force, the day that you will like the grappling art.
> 
> Can you
> 
> - take your opponent down? You know you can.
> - knock your opponent down? You may not too sure about it.



To clarify, Grappling is more on how to stop an opponent on the ground, not just take them down. Nearly all the striking styles teach a variety of Sweeps, locks, etc. But once the opponent is down, the choice is end it with a strike or walk away. Whereas, grappling  gives a middle ground of holding them down there.

I personally would rather just end it after the take down, but that brings up all kinds of legal troubles. Legally speaking, many cops will say when he's down you can't touch him unless he tries to attack you again. I roll with with my BJJ and old wrestling buddies, but thats so if I trip or get taken down I can handle myself. Frankly, If someones attacked me, I dont have an issue with a good right cross to his jaw, but I've been in gloves since I was young. Many people are shy about hitting anyone in general! 

     Another big misconception I've seen among grapplers (not as much here but I assume its because many people here are instructors and know this already), no matter how much you train there will never be a guarantee that you'll land any clinch or lock. I hear the "well thats what they train for 3 hours a day" argument all the time, but its irrelevant. I train for 3 hours in striking and take-downs, but there's no guarantee that I'll land a finisher. It's more about odds.

At the end of the day, it's really about preference. Even with BJJ, if the cop on the scene feels like being a jerk, you can get into some trouble. Especially after the Rear Naked being in the news so much lately

Not all of this was meant for you KF Wang, I'm sure you are far more experienced with grappling than I! I just wanted to break it down a little more for anyone else here


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## Tez3

So, off we go on the grappling train again.............................


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## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> So, off we go on the grappling train again.............................



Yep. I think the term "stand up" is lost in translation these days.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Transk53 said:


> Yep. I think the term "stand up" is lost in translation these days.


IMO, you have to take your opponent down first before you can control him on the ground.

If MA = kick + punch + lock + throw + ground game then

grappling = lock + throw + ground game

The throw is stand up throw, but lock can be both stand up lock and ground game lock.


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## Tez3

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, you have to take your opponent down first before you can control him on the ground.
> 
> If MA = kick + punch + lock + throw + ground game then
> 
> grappling = lock + throw + ground game
> 
> The throw is stand up throw, but lock can be both stand up lock and ground game lock.




Look, I don't want to cut you off in your prime but the thread is about " *MMA, whether it's a fad or not*". It's not about grappling and how good or not it is in any situation.


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## Transk53

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, you have to take your opponent down first before you can control him on the ground.
> 
> If MA = kick + punch + lock + throw + ground game then
> 
> grappling = lock + throw + ground game
> 
> The throw is stand up throw, but lock can be both stand up lock and ground game lock.



You are obsessed with grappling, I am with stand up. Don't get it about always going to ground.


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## Tez3

this thread is about MMA, the competition, the style, the promotions like Pride and UFC not whether grappling in the street is better than stand up, not whether you can fight off cops etc etc etc. It's on the MMA section and while I think the OP somewhat late in realising about MMA it is still about MMA......not just grappling.

Mephisto and I were discussing grappling *within an MMA fight* not grappling for the street or just grappling. While we may appear to disagree we do know what grappling is and what we are talking about!


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## PhotonGuy

Mephisto said:


> So whats your point photonguy? You didn't really tell us what you want from this thread, you didn't ask a question. Is MMA a fad? Maybe that should have been in the op. You make some good points. MMA may have silenced the grappling skeptics, of course some still ignore it as a very important range to train because "the streets", where you're always fighting a horde of people on asphalt covered with broken glass. I think mma has raised the bar as to what constitutes a good fighting system. It hasn't eliminated the need for striking specialists and grappling specialists. Mma may be popular right now but I'm not sure it qualifies as a fad. I suppose it means how you define a fad. Typically I think of a fad as something that reaches a peak of popularity than all but vanishes from the public eye. I don't think this will be the case with mma, it's popularity may decline some but I think it will still be quite visible in our culture. Just as boxing was once more popular and the popularity declined, but it has always been a presence and you'll see a boxing match on a a sports bar on any given weekend night. Like mma boxing set a precedent for the art of punching within its ruke set. You'd think with all the systems out there that punch another styke completely separate from boxing could enter the ring and give the boxers a run for their money but it's not the case. Boxing is still relevant and will remain that way.



I was just stating my observations of MMA. It seems to be the big thing in the martial arts world right now. Perhaps fad wasn't the proper term to use, I should've said it was really popular right now. Will that popularity stay where its at? Who knows.


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## PhotonGuy

Andrew Green said:


> This is the same way Kickboxing started in the west.  You did karate, then added boxing.  For a hobby level practitioner doing it all at once makes the most sense.  You don't need everything in wrestling, BJJ and Muay Thai for MMA.  A lot of the stuff in those "base" styles is not going to be useful in MMA.  Take the stuff that applies to MMA out of them, add in the specific things that are just relevant to MMA (ex G&P, cage/wall work, etc) and you have a complete system.  There is no reason to learn spider guard or low singles and a ton of other stuff that doesn't really apply.
> 
> For a pro trying to make a career out of it cross-training is going to have more benefit, but they have a lot more time to train and there is a point of diminishing returns.  But until the amateur side of the sport gets sorted out and can handle recreational practitioners and youth safely on a large scale most top level fighters are going to come in with a base in something else that they started competing in when they where young.



I once saw a small documentary that briefly discussed the history of kickboxing, that American boxers started adding in the basic kicks to their boxing styles and thus kickboxing came to be. I also heard once that Bruce Lee coined the term kickboxing and that those kicking shield started out as nothing more than those football shields that players run into that Dan Insanto incorporated into his martial arts training from when he used to play football.


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## drop bear

jezr74 said:


> In my limited knowledge of MMA training, don't they focus on a few good moves of each category so to speak. eg. Strikes, Kicks, Grapples, Pins, etc.
> 
> I wouldn't call them jack of all trades, but have a focus group of moves that help in the cage. Of course, any style previous trained, or coached to use your strengths can still apply.
> 
> Also, agree with others. Not a fad.



Not really. The classes are broken up into styles generally. So if you do wrestling,boxing,muay Thai,bjj etc. You do all of it.

so you wont be as good as a boxer who is training six days a week. But you are doing really real boxing against real boxers.

Even if you do mma striking against real boxers.

And that is the difference between mma and the concept of this pick the best moves and integrate them idea.


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## jezr74

drop bear said:


> Not really. The classes are broken up into styles generally. So if you do wrestling,boxing,muay Thai,bjj etc. You do all of it.
> 
> so you wont be as good as a boxer who is training six days a week. But you are doing really real boxing against real boxers.
> 
> Even if you do mma striking against real boxers.
> 
> And that is the difference between mma and the concept of this pick the best moves and integrate them idea.



But you wouldn't be doing the whole syllabus for each style right? Just the parts that would increase your success in a match?


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## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> You are obsessed with grappling, I am with stand up. Don't get it about always going to ground.



you are correct. The worst place you can be on the street is underneath a grappler.

(see what i did there?)


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## drop bear

jezr74 said:


> But you wouldn't be doing the whole syllabus for each style right? Just the parts that would increase your success in a match?



We don't because we don't have the syllabus trained guys. To a certain degree. (we are a small club in a rural town) but for those that do. They absolutely train the systems.

So when our judo guy actually turns up for example. It is gi on bow in and do judo. It is not mma no gi judo throws.


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## drop bear

So here is integrated mma.(one of the best in Australia)

here is there legitimate bjj course. Nd in that photo is Adrian pang. Mma fighter in a gi with a belt on.

BJJ Integrated MMA Brisbane Australia


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## Transk53

drop bear said:


> you are correct. The worst place you can be on the street is underneath a grappler.
> 
> (see what i did there?)



Yeah, but no. Do you like hairy armpits lol.


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## jezr74

drop bear said:


> We don't because we don't have the syllabus trained guys. To a certain degree. (we are a small club in a rural town) but for those that do. They absolutely train the systems.
> 
> So when our judo guy actually turns up for example. It is gi on bow in and do judo. It is not mma no gi judo throws.



I guess my understanding of what MMA is conceptually may be wrong. You literally do a mixture of different styles depending on the teacher and night?

Where I was thinking MMA was a coach that would teach strikes, kicks, grapple etc. based on what would work in the context of a cage\ring etc. Whether that coach had a background in a particular arts was irrelevant, but you would get the benefits of that knowledge.


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## drop bear

jezr74 said:


> I guess my understanding of what MMA is conceptually may be wrong. You literally do a mixture of different styles depending on the teacher and night?
> 
> Where I was thinking MMA was a coach that would teach strikes, kicks, grapple etc. based on what would work in the context of a cage\ring etc. Weather that caoch had a background in a particular arts was irrelevant, but you would get the benefits of that knowledge.



It is a common misconception because it is not intuitive. I had to have it pointed out to me because i hadn't really noticed.

But quite basically people who compete no gi. Train in gi. We are talking full time professional fighters.

And once you start noticing that,the rest falls in to place.


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## jezr74

drop bear said:


> It is a common misconception because it is not intuitive. I had to have it pointed out to me because i hadn't really noticed.
> 
> But quite basically people who compete no gi. Train in gi. We are talking full time professional fighters.
> 
> And once you start noticing that,the rest falls in to place.



Kinda lost me there.

Do you learn a mixture of complete MAs, or MA made up of a mixture of other MAs techniques?


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## Drose427

jezr74 said:


> Kinda lost me there.
> 
> Do you learn a mixture of complete MAs, or MA made up of a mixture of other MAs techniques?


How many MMA gyms work is this:

They'll have at least 2-3 Instructors, Usually many more to accommodate more students

You'll Train Kickboxing or Muay Thai on mondays and wednesdays

Tues/Thurs/Fri you'll roll.

Our local gym breaks it down even more

Want BJJ? You have to choose one of the programs (no gi, competition, SD, MMA, etc.) or bundle a couple for extra.

Want  International Kickboxing? You train with the Kickboxing instructor

Want MMA? You do both (at added costs)

edit: You train whatever for what you want to compete in. It's very much like college in that you have different instructors for different courses and you take what you need


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## drop bear

jezr74 said:


> Kinda lost me there.
> 
> Do you learn a mixture of complete MAs, or MA made up of a mixture of other MAs techniques?



both. You basically train twice as much.


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## drop bear

drop bear said:


> both. You basically train twice as much.



master of all trades. Because to fight and win you have to be.


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## Hanzou

I'm sure there's many out there who wish it was a fad and go away.

Sucks for them.

MMA changed martial arts for the better IMHO.


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## jezr74

Right, strange how you can take an assumption with you for years. Since I've always seen places that teach multiple martial arts for many, many years, I've always though that "MMA" was a hybrid MA. I have a number of guys at work that fight amateur promotions and they have said they only drill bits an pieces from no particular style, or they have no idea what the origins are since they have no interest in it beyond the physical. I've never thought to question the detail about it.


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## jezr74

Hanzou said:


> MMA changed martial arts for the better IMHO.



I think it's these comments that confuse me when on these topics, this makes me think of MMA as a hybrid style that is new. Where others are saying it's a club that teaches many styles. Which is not unique IMO.


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## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> I'm sure there's many out there who wish it was a fad and go away.
> 
> Sucks for them.
> 
> MMA changed martial arts for the better IMHO.



MMA. Makes traditional styles better. And that is what is really going to bite.

Because suddenly in your bjj club you get a mmaer who wrestles or. Judos, it doesn't matter. Because now your bjj has to man up and counter that either with better bjj or something else. And now that bjj can counter wrestling,mma has to counter bjj.

Our karate guys are becoming dangerous boxers. Because the first thing we did was apply ,karate does not punch face so punch face. And it worked for a while.

Now it doesn't and we eat head kicks.


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## drop bear

jezr74 said:


> Right, strange how you can take an assumption with you for years. Since I've always seen places that teach multiple martial arts for many, many years, I've always though that "MMA" was a hybrid MA. I have a number of guys at work that fight amateur promotions and they have said they only drill bits an pieces from no particular style, or they have no idea what the origins are since they have no interest in it beyond the physical. I've never thought to question the detail about it.



The thing is i cant train with the best guys if i cant at least approximate what they do.

gsp recently got in john Wayne parr to spar with. They sparred kickboxing because it is pointless to spar mma with a champion Thai fighter.

If i went and found a champion wrestler and punched him in the mouth he would tell me to get lost and i would gain nothing. Where i could learn wrestling.


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## jezr74

drop bear said:


> MMA. Makes traditional styles better. And that is what is really going to bite.
> 
> Because suddenly in your bjj club you get a mmaer who wrestles or. Judos, it doesn't matter. Because now your bjj has to man up and counter that either with better bjj or something else. And now that bjj can counter wrestling,mma has to counter bjj.
> 
> Our karate guys are becoming dangerous boxers. Because the first thing we did was apply ,karate does not punch face so punch face. And it worked for a while.
> 
> Now it doesn't and we eat head kicks.



I can't see it making any style better or worse, newer or older. Just the practitioner will get the benefits of more options and selection available to them. But don't want to see this thread go down another rabbit hole on that segue.

Definitely got some more questions for my friends at work next time I see them.


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## drop bear

jezr74 said:


> Just the practitioner will get the benefits of more options and selection available to them



That is enough to make a style better.


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## Andrew Green

drop bear said:


> master of all trades. Because to fight and win you have to be.



More like learn something about everything, and everything about something.  All of the top competitors are good at just about everything, but are only really "great" at a handful of things that they do to everyone.  Doesn't mean they can't do other things, just that they don't specialize in them to the same degree.

They will also bring in specialists to fine tune specific things.  If your takedown defence needs work you might go work with a wrestling coach.  But in the end it has all got to be viewed through a MMA filter.  As I said before, certain things just don't work in MMA.  You don't go learn low singles or spider guard for MMA.  You don't go working really deep bobbing and weaving for MMA.  But in any sport, competitors tend to specialize in certain aspects.


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## Buka

I think when most people think of MMA, they think of MMA style competition in a cage. Which is what I think of. I think we've come to a point where gyms open that specialize in MMA, and train in a cage. There has to be different instructors for it to work....right now. Fifty years from now there will be folks who grew up in MMA and will probably have a greater grasp on teaching all of it. But they'll still bring in people who specialize in the various aspects and nuances of open fighting.

I think the notoriety of MMA, especially it's massive television exposure and publicity, has helped the Martial Arts world more than anything in my lifetime. I thank Art Davie (put on the first UFC) and Dana White for that.


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## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> MMA. Makes traditional styles better.



Traditional styles makes MMA better. Someone had to say it, and all I had to do was rearrange some words.


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## jezr74

I happened across this sticky thread in the MMA section. It kind of contradicts what we are talking about here, but describes it more as a hybrid style with components picked from different arts or created to suit the area it is to work in. So is there possible two camps of thought on this?

What is MMA MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


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## jezr74

drop bear said:


> MMA. Makes traditional styles better.





RTKDCMB said:


> Traditional styles makes MMA better.



Combine these two and I'm in agreement.


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## drop bear

RTKDCMB said:


> Traditional styles makes MMA better. Someone had to say it, and all I had to do was rearrange some words.



Yes but that was pretty obvious. Of course mma is seeking out good stylists to help their game. Hence the mixed bit.


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## drop bear

Andrew Green said:


> More like learn something about everything, and everything about something.  All of the top competitors are good at just about everything, but are only really "great" at a handful of things that they do to everyone.  Doesn't mean they can't do other things, just that they don't specialize in them to the same degree.
> 
> They will also bring in specialists to fine tune specific things.  If your takedown defence needs work you might go work with a wrestling coach.  But in the end it has all got to be viewed through a MMA filter.  As I said before, certain things just don't work in MMA.  You don't go learn low singles or spider guard for MMA.  You don't go working really deep bobbing and weaving for MMA.  But in any sport, competitors tend to specialize in certain aspects.



but a good mma guy should be able to wrestle an elite wrestler. Mabye not win but at least hold their ground. And without resorting to bitching about not being allowed to throw punches.

They may not have to be able to do low singles but they have to be able to do something. At least defend it.

Because there is nothing stopping someone from doing a low single. Or spider guard.

Ben Askren does low singles by the way.


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## drop bear

jezr74 said:


> I happened across this sticky thread in the MMA section. It kind of contradicts what we are talking about here, but describes it more as a hybrid style with components picked from different arts or created to suit the area it is to work in. So is there possible two camps of thought on this?
> 
> What is MMA MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community



two camps at once. It is also a hybrid style.

Which make it a lot of information to process. So mma striking is different to boxing but theoretically you should still be able to do rounds with a boxer with the bigger gloves.

just your level drops a bit. So they are OK boxers but not great ones.


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## jezr74

drop bear said:


> two camps at once. It is also a hybrid style.
> 
> Which make it a lot of information to process. So mma striking is different to boxing but theoretically you should still be able to do rounds with a boxer with the bigger gloves.
> 
> just your level drops a bit. So they are OK boxers but not great ones.



Maybe one is Traditional MMA


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## Tez3

MMA is coached in various ways. There's no one 'right' way. Commercial gyms will have separate classes in stand up ( Muay Thai or kickboxing), grappling (usually BJJ) and often a traditional martial art or two plus a boxing class. They are likely to have fitness classes too, this, obviously, makes the money for the owners.  Most would be MMA fighters find they have to train separate classes and then probably have private sessions to put it together, some gyms have  'all in 'MMA classes though but to be commercially viable this would probably be once or twice a week. Would be fighters will have to go through their separate classes learning everything in that style, not necessarily a bad thing though.

For established fighters the training regime is different, they aren't restricted to having to take classes, they have sessions throughout the day with coaches interspersed with strength and conditioning, stamina and fitness training. this is where fighters can pick and choose what techniques they find work and they can do. The established people can meld all their techniques into the whole while being coached by an expert MMA coach, they will learn ringcraft, listening to corners (!) and all things pertaining to fighting. This however is no different from any sport. The commercial sector which is where most people start is the same place where non MMA fighters go. Once you show talent things change.


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## drop bear

jezr74 said:


> Maybe one is Traditional MMA



it depends how complicated you want to get as to how right that is. We enter a grey area.

So I will just use mma sub wrestling and bjj. Now a mma guy could roll in bjj and not be doing bjj but still fall in the rule set. So say mma can be more explosive. Fight to be on top or standing and not use gi grips. Now you can do all of that in the bjj rule set if you want. But it isn't sort off bjj.

A grey area.


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> MMA is coached in various ways. There's no one 'right' way. Commercial gyms will have separate classes in stand up ( Muay Thai or kickboxing), grappling (usually BJJ) and often a traditional martial art or two plus a boxing class. They are likely to have fitness classes too, this, obviously, makes the money for the owners.  Most would be MMA fighters find they have to train separate classes and then probably have private sessions to put it together, some gyms have  'all in 'MMA classes though but to be commercially viable this would probably be once or twice a week. Would be fighters will have to go through their separate classes learning everything in that style, not necessarily a bad thing though.
> 
> For established fighters the training regime is different, they aren't restricted to having to take classes, they have sessions throughout the day with coaches interspersed with strength and conditioning, stamina and fitness training. this is where fighters can pick and choose what techniques they find work and they can do. The established people can meld all their techniques into the whole while being coached by an expert MMA coach, they will learn ringcraft, listening to corners (!) and all things pertaining to fighting. This however is no different from any sport. The commercial sector which is where most people start is the same place where non MMA fighters go. Once you show talent things change.



Integrated as an example though still make their fighters do bjj. These are top pro fighters.


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Integrated as an example though still make their fighters do bjj. These are top pro fighters.




They make their fighters do BJJ but I bet they don't make them do the beginners class do they? fighters don't stop doing BJJ or Muay Thai, boxing etc they just do it at a higher and more intense standard. I didn't say they stopped doing different styles I said they won't do it in the commercial once or twice a week classes with the paying public, they will be doing it among themselves with the BJJ coach.


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> They make their fighters do BJJ but I bet they don't make them do the beginners class do they? fighters don't stop doing BJJ or Muay Thai, boxing etc they just do it at a higher and more intense standard. I didn't say they stopped doing different styles I said they won't do it in the commercial once or twice a week classes with the paying public, they will be doing it among themselves with the BJJ coach.



i will ask how they break it up. We have one of them coming down for a sneaky training session next week. 

But they do bjj. They don't do 6 days a week of mma. Which should make more sense.


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## Andrew Green

drop bear said:


> Ben Askren does low singles by the way.



Ben Askren is a exception there, not many could get away with it in MMA.


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## Tez3

One of the best MMA gyms going, these guys are absolutely beasts but really cool with it. Love them to bits.
A day in the life of a Griphouse Dinky Ninja Glasgow West News


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## Tez3

And one of the best MMA coaches there is. Interview John Kavanagh on coaching methods diet gurus fancy gym equipment more - Bloody Elbow


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> One of the best MMA gyms going, these guys are absolutely beats but really cool with it. Love them to bits.
> A day in the life of a Griphouse Dinky Ninja Glasgow West News



what point are you making?


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> what point are you making?



Dear me, it's the daily training of MMA fighters, did you not watch the video? You know, what we were talking about? how they train?


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Dear me, it's the daily training of MMA fighters, did you not watch the video? You know, what we were talking about? how they train?



So they just train mma? Or do they train individual systems?


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> So they just train mma? Or do they train individual systems?



Oh good grief. I know you don't read what I write or at least understand it but really?


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Oh good grief. I know you don't read what I write or at least understand it but really?



Do they just train mma or do they train other systems? Simple question. Part of the topic.

Is there some other point you are making? Then make it.


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Do they just train mma or do they train other systems? Simple question. Part of the topic.
> 
> Is there some other point you are making? Then make it.



Ok as you aren't going to read my posts re how gyms work and how established fighters train and are determined to be confrontational I'll just pop you back on ignore because I really can't be bothered with your sparring debating style.


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Ok as you aren't going to read my posts re how gyms work and how established fighters train and are determined to be confrontational I'll just pop you back on ignore because I really can't be bothered with your sparring debating style.



Obviously i have missed whatever point you are trying to explain here. Now you have wasted what? Three posts complaining .Where one post could have made your point understandable.

You are sparring here not me.


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## Mephisto

drop bear said:


> Obviously i have missed whatever point you are trying to explain here. Now you have wasted what? Three posts complaining .Where one post could have made your point understandable.
> 
> You are sparring here not me.


Oh God, now Tez is gonna accuse you of personally attacking her again.


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## Transk53

Huh, don't tell me yet another thread is going the way of a slag fest. Anywho, I don't personally care what MMA is supposed to consist of. You box, you grapple, you do whatever, it is all mixed to a personal flavour. Thus being MMA. Though I could be making that too simple. The boxing element not being so strong, then train that and let something else become the core. Still in my uneducated view it is all MMA. Frankly who cares if it ain't, we all have our own opinions. Why not keep the place nice and chilled. We take the piss out of each other and that is funny, personal attacks and trolling is boring. Oh well!


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## PhotonGuy

Hey now, lets all play nice, shall we?


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## drop bear

Mephisto said:


> Oh God, now Tez is gonna accuse you of personally attacking her again.



Yeah but she is not sparring.

Honest.


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## Reeksta

My experience in terms of MMA validating the usefulness of grappling arts is the same as @PhotonGuy and @Mephisto. I did judo since childhood and the common attitude amongst most people (even a lot of judokas) was that it was 'just a sport' and wouldn't be much use in a 'real' fight against 'proper' martial arts like karate or TKD coz they'd just knock you out before you could grab a hold of them. MMA showed us all that it's not that simple. To be fair it's always been popular here in the UK as @Tez3 has mentioned, but I feel people's perspective towards it has shifted.


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## Tez3

Reeksta said:


> My experience in terms of MMA validating the usefulness of grappling arts is the same as @PhotonGuy and @Mephisto. I did judo since childhood and the common attitude amongst most people (even a lot of judokas) was that it was 'just a sport' and wouldn't be much use in a 'real' fight against 'proper' martial arts like karate or TKD coz they'd just knock you out before you could grab a hold of them. MMA showed us all that it's not that simple. To be fair it's always been popular here in the UK as @Tez3 has mentioned, but I feel people's perspective towards it has shifted.




Judo here has gone into partnership with the UFC
British Judo announces new sponsorship deal with Ultimate Fighting Championship British Judo Association

. I think it's about time that people took MMA as itself and not as proof of anything else. So many people want to use MMA to prove that their style 'works' ( or someone else's style doesn't) that they miss the point of MMA which is what it says on the tin...mixed martial arts, watch the fights for what they are and enjoy the competition rather than looking for which styles work and which don't especially 'on the street'.


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## Reeksta

Tez3 said:


> Judo here has gone into partnership with the UFC


Canny move imo. It surprises me how anti-MMA a lot if the American wrestling establishment seems to be, as MMA has done a brilliant PR job for amateur wrestling. I bet participation rates in high schools and colleges have gone through the roof. Guess they're worried about losing potential international talent but I'd have thought the boost at grassroots would be a good trade-off for them? The BJA (who are not my favourite people but I won't get into that here lol) obviously think so


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## Dirty Dog

Folks, the off topic thread derailing personal shots need to stop. As in, now.
If you don't like someone, don't respond to them. If you can't help yourself, put them on ignore.
Keep the conversation polite, professional, and on topic. Or expect to see some points being issued.

Mark A Cochran
Dirty Dog
MT Senior Moderator


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## jezr74

Tez3 said:


> I think it's about time that people took MMA as itself and not as proof of anything else. So many people want to use MMA to prove that their style 'works' ( or someone else's style doesn't) that they miss the point of MMA which is what it says on the tin...mixed martial arts, watch the fights for what they are and enjoy the competition rather than looking for which styles work and which don't especially 'on the street'.



I agree, I watch MMA fights when I have time and enjoy it. It's got staying power IMO.


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## tshadowchaser

I just went back and read the OP and then looked at the thread heading.  Almost two different subjects.
However I will agree and disagree with the thought that MMA is a fad.
If we consider a fad to be the latest "thing" that everyone wants to study then yes it is a fad.  We can even look at the fads of the past;  first jujutsu, then judo, karate, TKD, kung fu etc.  all where the in thing to study at one time and now it is MMA.

If we consider a fad to be something that is around for a short period of time then gone , NO MMA dose not fall into that category because it is here to stay in one form or another.


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## RTKDCMB

PhotonGuy said:


> Hey now, lets all play nice, shall we?


Have you not read the forums around here?


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## drop bear

tshadowchaser said:


> I just went back and read the OP and then looked at the thread heading.  Almost two different subjects.
> However I will agree and disagree with the thought that MMA is a fad.
> If we consider a fad to be the latest "thing" that everyone wants to study then yes it is a fad.  We can even look at the fads of the past;  first jujutsu, then judo, karate, TKD, kung fu etc.  all where the in thing to study at one time and now it is MMA.
> 
> If we consider a fad to be something that is around for a short period of time then gone , NO MMA dose not fall into that category because it is here to stay in one form or another.



Also UFC was in the 90s  so we are looking at 20 years now.

yep I am old.


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## PhotonGuy

RTKDCMB said:


> Have you not read the forums around here?



I have and I must say Im quite disappointed. After all, this is supposed to be the FRIENDLY Martial Arts Community isn't it? That's what the title is after all. And even though I know not all martial artists are nice, courteous, and respectful of others that's how I was taught martial artists should be but unfortunately in the martial arts world it can be anything but that. There can be lots of bullying and its not uncommon to find martial artists who act like John Kreese from The Karate Kid. 

Anyway, that being said, since this is supposed to be a FRIENDLY martial arts community and I do believe there are rules here saying not to flame or insult other members, I think that's what we should do. Whenever we say anything here, we should be careful that it doesn't offend anybody. For a martial artist and for a Christian I believe its important to not offend people. Even if not everybody here is a Christian, the part that Christians should be nice and not offend people nevertheless I think is a good thing to apply here as well. So lets try to debate things in a civil manner and refrain from posting anything that might offend anybody. I won't mention names but some people here post really offensive stuff.


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## Steve

Hey, Photonguy, I agree with most of your post.  But I don't think that there is any mandate on the part of Christians to avoid offending anyone.  In fact, my understanding is that Christians are sometimes morally obligated to offend people.  

But that aside, I appreciate your efforts to be friendly, and this can be a healthy reminder for us all to stick to the topics and avoid making things personal.


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## PhotonGuy

Steve said:


> Hey, Photonguy, I agree with most of your post.  But I don't think that there is any mandate on the part of Christians to avoid offending anyone.  In fact, my understanding is that Christians are sometimes morally obligated to offend people.
> 
> But that aside, I appreciate your efforts to be friendly, and this can be a healthy reminder for us all to stick to the topics and avoid making things personal.



"And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." Ephesians 4:32

So there you have it, Christians are supposed to be nice and kind and aren't supposed to offend other people. 

As it is, though, Christian or not I don't think people are supposed to post stuff here that would offend somebody else, I thought the rules prohibited that, but as it is people get away with it, even staff members who should know better.


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## tshadowchaser

and now back to the topic of MMA being a fad please


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## drop bear

Ok. MMA as a fad. Cagercise in all its forms are definitely elements where it is.


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## PhotonGuy

I think most of us can agree at this point that MMA is not a fad, its here to stay.


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## Cirdan

PhotonGuy said:


> I have and I must say Im quite disappointed. After all, this is supposed to be the FRIENDLY Martial Arts Community isn't it? That's what the title is after all. And even though I know not all martial artists are nice, courteous, and respectful of others that's how I was taught martial artists should be but unfortunately in the martial arts world it can be anything but that. There can be lots of bullying and its not uncommon to find martial artists who act like John Kreese from The Karate Kid.
> 
> Anyway, that being said, since this is supposed to be a FRIENDLY martial arts community and I do believe there are rules here saying not to flame or insult other members, I think that's what we should do. Whenever we say anything here, we should be careful that it doesn't offend anybody. For a martial artist and for a Christian I believe its important to not offend people. Even if not everybody here is a Christian, the part that Christians should be nice and not offend people nevertheless I think is a good thing to apply here as well. So lets try to debate things in a civil manner and refrain from posting anything that might offend anybody. I won't mention names but some people here post really offensive stuff.



Allfather Odin on the other hand tells us to speak our mind, be brave, live life to the fullest, kill a few giants, have a drink, party with the valkyries all night and don`t give a frakk if that offends anyone. SKÅL!


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## Carol

drop bear said:


> And as a side note you are not allowed to do mma as a school sport.
> 
> we had a teacher that has tried.



Depends on the school.  Winchester (Mass.) High School has an MMA club.  It was started in 2008 or 2009 by a student named In-Goo Kwak who went on to attend Tufts University.


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## Drose427

Carol said:


> Depends on the school.  Winchester (Mass.) High School has an MMA club.  It was started in 2008 or 2009 by a student named In-Goo Kwak who went on to attend Tufts University.



What did theirs consist of? Most of the MMA clubs I've seen or heard of at the HS and College level were more Cardio Clubs than anything. A lot of them rolled, but didn't spar (striking).


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## Carol

Drose427 said:


> What did theirs consist of? Most of the MMA clubs I've seen or heard of at the HS and College level were more Cardio Clubs than anything. A lot of them rolled, but didn't spar (striking).



AFAIK it is lumped in with the wrestling program, so its probably very similar --  i.e., they hit pads and roll, but don't spar.


----------



## Jason Norin

PhotonGuy said:


> From what I've seen in the martial arts world. At one time grappling was viewed with skepticism. Lots of people thought striking arts were more effective than grappling arts because a striker could knock out a grappler. Then in the 90s, due to people such as the Gracies, grappling became very big. A good grappler was shown to be able to tie a striker up and neutralize their striking ability as the Gracies did very effectively. Now MMA is very big. MMA or Mixed Martial Arts combines the two. The way I see it, every style has their strengths and weaknesses. MMA is really good in that it makes you well rounded, you learn how to strike and grapple and how to combine it. but a weakness I see in MMA is that you can spread yourself too thin and become a "jack of all trades master of none." So, personally I think MMA is good if you already have experience in other martial arts. If you already have a good background in a striking art and a grappling art and you want to combine them.



I agree, bro. MMA just keeps on evolving that if you are a practitioner, you need to train hard enough so you won't get left behind and get beaten up by younger generations of fighters..


----------

