# Dennis prager explains the middle east in 5 minutes



## billc (Jan 20, 2011)

From Prager university, a quick guide to the conflict in the middle east, from one of my favorite people, Dennis Prager.

http://prageru.com/15.htm

All in 5 minutes.


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## granfire (Jan 21, 2011)

you can't list all the players in 5 minutes, much less explain it!


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 21, 2011)

I can do it in 1 word: Bollocks.


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## granfire (Jan 21, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I can do it in 1 word: Bollocks.



That's an adequate description, but no explanation...


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 21, 2011)

True....ok, I'll try again.
The Middle East suffers from a combination of delusions of adequacy compounded by a lack of respect for the other which is multiplied by an intense case of mass cranial-rectal inversion.


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## granfire (Jan 21, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> True....ok, I'll try again.
> The Middle East suffers from a combination of delusions of adequacy compounded by a lack of respect for the other which is multiplied by an intense case of mass cranial-rectal inversion.



I stand corrected and bow to your Greatness!
:asian:
:bow:


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## WC_lun (Jan 21, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> True....ok, I'll try again.
> The Middle East suffers from a combination of delusions of adequacy compounded by a lack of respect for the other which is multiplied by an intense case of mass cranial-rectal inversion.


 
You have a way with words


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## billc (Jan 21, 2011)

I think he did a great job.  "*B*revity is the soul of wit."


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 21, 2011)

billcihak said:


> From Prager university, a quick guide to the conflict in the middle east, from one of my favorite people, Dennis Prager.
> 
> http://prageru.com/15.htm
> 
> All in 5 minutes.


That little mentioning about how the Arabs were against this from the start is no small detail.
Sean


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## granfire (Jan 21, 2011)

billcihak said:


> I think he did a great job.  "*B*revity is the soul of wit."



Yes, Bob did one heck of a job!


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## billc (Jan 21, 2011)

I'm sorry, you thought I meant Bob, no, I actually meant that Dennis did a great job.  Bob, eh, you know.


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## Blade96 (Jan 22, 2011)

I doubt its something that can be explained in five months, let alone five minutes.

That is obvious when university offers 3 month courses on the middle eastern problems alone....

Mohandas (mahatma) k. gandhi opposed the creation of isreal (and pakistan, created at about the same time) he felt it would create more problems that it solved. And seeing how this is going on, seems like he was right.

http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/01/gandhi-opposed-creation-of-israel.html

I'd like to hear opinions from tez and canuckma on this, seeing as how they are jewish. And if there are any muslims on MT, them too.

Prager, Imo, seems to make it more simplistic than it actually is. No war is that simplistic as that clip makes it sound. "the arabs just want em dead" Come on. Gimmie a king size break.


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## CanuckMA (Jan 22, 2011)

I'm staying out of those threads as much as possible. It's better for my blood pressure.


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## Carol (Jan 22, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> I doubt its something that can be explained in five months, let alone five minutes.
> 
> That is obvious when university offers 3 month courses on the middle eastern problems alone....
> 
> ...



How convenient. 

A Hindu, from an overwhelmingly Hindu-majority country  opposed the idea of countries where non-Hindus would be the majority.


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## K-man (Jan 22, 2011)

If only it was so simple. Perhaps one step towards a solution would be to halt settlements in the occupied territories. This is an area that the UN designates as not belonging to Israel. Other contentous spots include East Jerusalem, the Golan Heights and the blockade of the Gaza Strip.

Now I watched in 1967 as it looked as though the Arab states would crush Israel and in fairness they got what they deserved when Israel took over all the territory in the vicinity. If you start a war for the wrong reasons you deserve a bloody nose. But that doesn't automatically mean that the victor can keep that territory and exclude the prior inhabitants. 

Sure Israel did a land for peace deal with Egypt but I'm not sure that the reason is as clear as Dennis Prager suggests. It is far more complex. The outcome was land returned for the acknowledgement of Israel's right to exist, not for peace as such. For Egypt it was a no brainer. They didn't want to fight in the first place, they lost a heap of oil rich territory and the provision of Palestinian Territory for the creation of the State of Israel didn't take an inch of Egyptian territory. Egypt was duped into the alliance with Syria for a start. The irony is then that the Eyptian President Nasser encouraged the others involved, including Arafat, not to do a deal, so the rest of the land, the Israel had agreed to return, was never relinquished. Some sort of convoluted logic at work here.

Prior to the 1967 war, Israel sent a large force into Jordan which undermined the agreement that the US had with President Hussain thus making the conflict almost inevitable.

In fairness the Palestinians also want acknowledgement that they also have the right to exist. In 2009, Benjamin Netanyahu accepted an eventual Palestinian state which must: 





> "clearly and unambiguously recognise Israel as the state of the Jewish people", meaning that Palestinian refugees must be settled outside of Israel's borders, since resettlement within Israel would undermine its existence as Jewish. The Palestinian state must be "demilitarised, namely, without an army, without control of its airspace, and with effective security measures to prevent weapons smuggling into the territory". The state would not be allowed to forge military pacts with other countries. Other "positions" included Israel's need for "defensible borders" and Jerusalem would remain as the united capital of Israel


Is this fair and reasonable? 

Both sides are to blame and both sides have a grievance against the other. Prager is happy to blame the arabs but the fault is equally shared IMHO. :asian:


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## Blade96 (Jan 22, 2011)

Carol said:


> How convenient.
> 
> A Hindu, from an overwhelmingly Hindu-majority country  opposed the idea of countries where non-Hindus would be the majority.



you saying he wanted only countries where hindu would be majority? I dont think he thought like that.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 2, 2011)

it is really simple

Israel:good guys
everyone else: bad guys


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## Sukerkin (Aug 2, 2011)

It really isn't that simple.  Treating it like it is is just riding for a fall.


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## CanuckMA (Aug 2, 2011)

It's a complex situation requiring a complex solution.  It may look simple, but as they say, the devil's in the details.


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## JohnEdward (Aug 2, 2011)

Prager explains in 5 mins the problem. I wish he could solve the problem in 5 mins.


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## CanuckMA (Aug 3, 2011)

That is the main problem with most discourse today, especially in the US. Everything is reduced to a small black and white sound bite. The nuances and complexity of the issues are being ignored, because to not do so would mean admitting the the 'other' guy may also have a point.


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## Tez3 (Aug 3, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> That is the main problem with most discourse today, especially in the US. Everything is reduced to a small black and white sound bite. The nuances and complexity of the issues are being ignored, because to not do so would mean admitting the the 'other' guy may also have a point.



Everything has to be said and done as if speaking to people with very short attention spans, it's partly the reason we have black belts in martial arts after a year of training etc, no one wants to spend time on a subject, it all has to be 'instant'. Interesting subjects on television documentaries are dumbed down and information repeated over and over again, it's rare to find any programmes that go into any depth on a subject any more.


The Middle East is a complex situation brought about by actions taken by other countries outside the regions decades even centuries ago, if the problems have taken a hundred years or so in the making they can't be _explained_ or solved in 5 minutes, it's naive to think you can. It's the same with European history and other situations like Afghanistan, China etc. Oh for a proper, informed, give and take discussion!


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## Twin Fist (Aug 3, 2011)

no, it really is that simple.

israel: protects children
Arabs: blow children up

if you cant figure out who the bad guy is in that sample, you cant be helped


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## Tez3 (Aug 3, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> no, it really is that simple.
> 
> israel: protects children
> Arabs: blow children up
> ...



And the dead Arab children? Are they good or bad then?


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## granfire (Aug 3, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> And the dead Arab children? Are they good or bad then?



practice targets.....


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## Tez3 (Aug 3, 2011)

granfire said:


> practice targets.....



Wouldn't want them growing up to be bad adults would we. Very distastful point of view tbh. It's like the saying' the only good Indian is a dead Indian' same mindset.


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## granfire (Aug 3, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Wouldn't want them growing up to be bad adults would we. Very distastful point of view tbh. It's like the saying' the only good Indian is a dead Indian' same mindset.



But you know I was being sarcastic.


Having that 'take no prisoner' kinda mood, can't deal with foolish thoughts like 'Israelis protect children, Arabs kill them' at the moment.

Can't very well call people names on the net (got a reprimant on another forum for using a non dictionary term for excrement on an animal forum....it happens but we can't say it...) though some do need to get the truth and nothing but at times.


back to my imported beer....it ain't German, nor a guiness, but it will have to do (before I dig up that imported cheap wine)

man, it's 5 PM here and still 97 farenheit/36 celsius here....


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## Twin Fist (Aug 3, 2011)

everyone knows full well that if the arabs would cut the ****, there would be NO dead arab kids, the israelis ANNOUNCE when they are comming, they dont just lob rockets into the air.....

there is no moral equivilency between the murdering arabs and the jews acting in self defense. Claiming there is just makes one look silly


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## elder999 (Aug 3, 2011)

billcihak said:


> From Prager university, a quick guide to the conflict in the middle east, from one of my favorite people, Dennis Prager.
> 
> http://prageru.com/15.htm
> 
> All in 5 minutes.



About the only thing Mr. Prager explains here is why you _sound like_ you do.

_Bob, eh, you know,
I meant Dennis, on the down low
brevity is the soul of wit,'
and all of my posts *sound like*......_
:lfao:


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## CanuckMA (Aug 3, 2011)

It still does not make it a simple situation. 

Just so we're clear TF, how often do you speak with Israelis?


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## granfire (Aug 3, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> It still does not make it a simple situation.
> 
> Just so we're clear TF, how often do you speak with Israelis?



well, I don't think you and Tez count....


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## Archangel M (Aug 3, 2011)

"We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." 
 Elie Wiesel


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## granfire (Aug 3, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> "We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented."
>  Elie Wiesel


:s529::sp87::sp24::sp68::sp102::s599::ea49he, look, Tez!)


:ea18:

Was still not the one I was looking for....
:bs:


AHHH, here we go, I do apologize for my ADOS moment...

I call BS on that statement.
it assumes one takes sides with the 'victim'.....Sometimes staying neutral saves your hide from being chewed up from both sides.


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## CanuckMA (Aug 3, 2011)

granfire said:


> well, I don't think you and Tez count....



I'm not Israeli.


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## granfire (Aug 3, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> I'm not Israeli.



My point.


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## CanuckMA (Aug 3, 2011)

granfire said:


> My point.



Yep.
And that black and white attitude, taken when you have nothing at stake gets to be quite bothersome. It's easy to be like that from half-way around the world.  That simpe Israel=good, Arabs =evil attitude gets my family and friends killed. 

It is a complex situation and will require a nuanced solution.


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## granfire (Aug 3, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> Yep.
> And that black and white attitude, taken when you have nothing at stake gets to be quite bothersome. It's easy to be like that from half-way around the world.  That simpe Israel=good, Arabs =evil attitude gets my family and friends killed.
> 
> It is a complex situation and will require a nuanced solution.



Well, it probably could be simple.
but easy? never.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 4, 2011)

few things are ever easy, but most things are simple.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 4, 2011)

except that it's true

the israelis are the good guys, the arabs are not.

are your family palistinian?


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 4, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> the israelis are the good guys



Nabatiyeh 21/03/1994(Lebanon)

Mnsuriah 13 April 1996

Nabatyaih 18 April 1996

Qana 18 April 1996

Janta 22/12/1998

Western Bekaa 29/12/1999

Jenin 2002


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## Tez3 (Aug 4, 2011)

Israelis are human, the Arabs are human, mistakes are made, postures taken, sides chosen.
You can believe one side is right and one side is wrong but allow for the frailities of humanity on both sides. It is a complex situation so much so that there are Arabs who fight for the Israelis and Israelis who believe the Arabs are right in certain respects. What it needs is for people to question their certainties and their so called knowledge of this situation and stop trying to turn it into a circus designed to make them look 'wise', it doesn't - it makes them look like a political commentator who has verbal diarroeha and mental constipation.


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## CanuckMA (Aug 4, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> except that it's true
> 
> the israelis are the good guys, the arabs are not.
> 
> are your family palistinian?



My family and friends live in Israel.

You make the mistake of seeing thins as back and white, Sesame Street level complexity, and you risk an all out war. It's easy for an American to say that. It's a lot harder when you know the people getting shot at personnaly.

Because I'm sure if we see a shooting war over Israel, it will get real nasty, real fast.


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## Tez3 (Aug 4, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> My family and friends live in Israel.
> 
> You make the mistake of seeing thins as back and white, Sesame Street level complexity, and you risk an all out war. It's easy for an American to say that. It's a lot harder when you know the people getting shot at personnaly.
> 
> Because I'm sure if we see a shooting war over Israel, it will get real nasty, real fast.




It's easy for certain Americans to look at war being an easy solution, look at Iraq, Afghanistan et al. America hasn't had a war on it's soil since it's Civil War. It's troops know what war is like but the civilian population has no idea, I think 9/11 came closest to showing them what a war on home soil could look like. Imagine that times every city, town and village in America,the sheer horror of it and understand why despite who are obviously the 'bad' guys and who are the 'good' guys no one is anxious to have a full scale war in the Middle East. If it can be avoided it should be.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 4, 2011)

now list the unprovoked rocket attacks INTO ISRAEL bob...............and the suicide bombers, and the car bombs and everything ELSE too.....




Bob Hubbard said:


> Nabatiyeh 21/03/1994(Lebanon)
> 
> Mnsuriah 13 April 1996
> 
> ...


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## billc (Aug 4, 2011)

Yes, a good first step would be for  one side to stop firing rockets into Israel on an almost daily basis.  I wonder how long any other country would take that before the also did something about it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/24/world/middleeast/24gaza.html

from the article:

At least one Katyusha-type rocket hit a street in the center of the southern Israeli city of Beersheva on Wednesday morning, slightly wounding one man and causing damage to nearby houses. Several mortar shells also fell on the Israeli side of the border with Gaza, the Israeli military said.
On Tuesday night, a longer-range rocket fell just short of the Israeli port city of Ashdod. The Israeli Air Force struck back at the spot from which the rocket was fired and killed a militant there, according to the Israeli military.
Gaza militants have fired a trickle of short-range rockets and mortar shells at southern Israel in recent months, but the longer-range weapons that reached deeper into Israel on Tuesday and Wednesday have been much rarer since the end of Israels military offensive in Gaza in January 2009.
-------------------------------


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## billc (Aug 4, 2011)

And from wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2011

from the article:

This is a detailed *list of Palestinian rocket* and mortar *attacks on Israel* in *2011* from the Gaza Strip.

[h=2]Contents[/h] [hide]​
1 Overview and notable developments
2 January
3 February
4 March
5 April
6 May
7 June
8 July
9 August


Yes, this should just be ignored.  Perhaps if the rocket attacks stopped, there might be some room for talking.


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## CanuckMA (Aug 4, 2011)




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## Tez3 (Aug 4, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


>




Know how you feel, the world according to the American right is a scary and weird place. It's cost many lives so far and I wonder when they will stop their march towards the destruction of the world. It worries me because of the right wing Christian movements in America are supporting Israel for their own ends not for that of the people in the Middle East.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 4, 2011)

*Sigh*

Some folks don't get it.

The "Good Guys" don't massacre children in school buses.

No matter what.

If you do, you are not the "Good Guys".

Not the Brits. Not the Israelis, and not the US.

I guess it was ok though.  A Muslim suicide bomber blows up in a cafe in Tel Aviv, it's perfectly ok for IDF stormtroopers to machine gun children in retaliation, hundreds of miles away. Guess it's just as ok for the US to drop bombs on schools in Afghanistan, because some Saudi crashed a plane 10 years ago.

Here's an idea.

EVERYONE stop blowing **** up and killing each other.

Yeah, I didn't think that would go over.

Back to the hate tank and ignorant justifications for stupidity.  Arguing here at times is about as useful as trying to build a wall by starting at the top. It's ok for the side you like to do what you condemn someone else for doing. Bollocks. Poppycock. and Bull ****.

I am so glad my time on this pile of dirt is winding down.


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## Tez3 (Aug 4, 2011)

If Canuck and I can see rights and wrongs, can see humanity and all its failings on all sides I'm damned if I can see why some are so stuck on everything being black and white. As I said there are Arabs in the IDF, have been since Israels inception, there are Israelis who demonstrate against what they see as Israeli wrongs. The Arabs and the Israelis are all people, the only way it will end is by negociation. Every war Great Britain has had against terrorists has ended by negociation and people sitting talking. It's not easy, there are fanatics on all sides but it has to be done, for all our sakes. If Americans take the view that Arabs are bad and Israelis are good it will end in disaster for many. Many Arabs say they won't stop until the Jews are all dead, driven into the sea but if the Americans say that the Arabs are so bad they should all be dead and driven into the sea where does that get us? We need peace, we need negociations not yet more hatred.


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## billc (Aug 4, 2011)

There are Arabs in the israeli Knesset, Arabs are allowed to vote in Israeli elections, there are Arabs in the IDF, there are Arabs who are Israeli citizens, there are arabs and israelis protesting against Israeli actions...hmmm...are there any Israelis in the PLO?  Any Israelis voting in Hamas elections?  What would happen if Arabs in the non-Israeli areas protested against the actions of the Arabs, would they perhaps be killed. I believe several times the Israelis have tried to negotiate, and they got that Intifada thing in return.  As one commentator pointed out, if the enemies of Israel put down their weapons, there would be peace that day.  If the Israelis put down their weapons, there would be driven into the sea.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 4, 2011)

we ALL know the truth 

if the arabs dropped the ****, the israelis would too

if the israelis disarmed? the arabs would wipe them from the face of the earth

THATS the difference

we all know this, does ANYONE deny it?


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## billc (Aug 4, 2011)

Unfortunately, Twin fist, they do.


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## Tez3 (Aug 4, 2011)

billcihak said:


> There are Arabs in the israeli Knesset, Arabs are allowed to vote in Israeli elections, there are Arabs in the IDF, there are Arabs who are Israeli citizens, there are arabs and israelis protesting against Israeli actions...hmmm...*are there any Israelis in the PLO*? Any Israelis voting in Hamas elections? What would happen if Arabs in the non-Israeli areas protested against the actions of the Arabs, would they perhaps be killed. I believe several times the Israelis have tried to negotiate, and they got that Intifada thing in return. As one commentator pointed out, if the enemies of Israel put down their weapons, there would be peace that day. If the Israelis put down their weapons, there would be driven into the sea.



Of course there are, they work for Mossad.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 4, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> we ALL know the truth
> 
> if the arabs dropped the ****, the israelis would too
> 
> ...



You really believe this don't you?

You're half right.
If Israel disarmed, they'd be wiped out in a weekend. I don't see anyone calling for them to lay down their arms and report to camps though.

But if you think this is all 1 sided aggression, that the IDF is just fighting defense, that they aren't murdering innocents, children and non-combatives....then you aren't paying attention to reality in that part of the mid east.

I could get into a long list here, but why bother? Minds are made up and no amount of reason, evidence or will change their mind.

They bombed a god damned US warship and fired on a former US Congresswoman's ship.
That's not innocent behavior. Thats not an 'opps'.
That's hostile acts of war against an ally.
That's bull ****.

You don't really think that 'well, if the arabs would stop bombing coffee shops, the jews will stop blowing up their school buses' is a reasonable argument do you?


Oh and anyone here who thinks it's ok to murder kids because of their religion, or some archaic idea of 'eye for an eye'?
Get the **** off my forum.

-ANYONE- murdering innocents is a scum bag, and if you're trying to justify it, you're not welcome here.

Israel has a right to defend itself, like ANY other sovereign nation.
They don't have a right to do whatever they will, whenever they want, to whomever they please.
You can't have it both ways.

They want to be seen as the 'good guys'?
Then they as a nation need to act like the 'good guys'.
Until then, they are a rogue nation that needs a serious smack down.


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## granfire (Aug 4, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Of course there are, they work for Mossad.



:duh:


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## Tez3 (Aug 5, 2011)

The whole idea of the existance of Israel is emotive and argumentative even among Jews, especially among Jews. The subject has a long history, the most recent of it started just after the First World War, it cannot be explained in five minutes, or five hours maybe not even in five years. 
There is no country I think which can stir up so many conflicting emotions and so many arguments from people who aren't either Jews or Arabs. Everyone has an opinion on Israel. It's like it belongs to the world.
When civil rights are infringed, when war crimes happen yes those responsible should be held to account, there's no doubts there but there's no country that can point a finger at any other without first looking at their own conduct. Britain behaved appallingly to the Jews just before Israeli Independance causing the deaths of many Jewish settlers when they disarmed them and armed the Arabs. The British put Jews from the concentration camps in Europe trying to get to Palestine as it was then into a concentration camp on Cyprus. There's more, there's massacres on all sides, there's horrors, there's mistakes, there's confusion, there's media spin, propaganda and downright lies. Each wrong doesn't make a right. Mistakes do happen and innocents do get killed, the Americans have killed children and innocents in Afghanistan in the fog of war. It's horrible but no one would suggest that the American soldiers deliberately killed innocents
What I find worrying is certain Christian sects/beliefs ( I don't know what you'd call them) look to Israel to fulfil what they think is the second coming and the end of the world, to this end they are supporting Israel's worst elements to help hasten this end of the world thing. I believe that there are many American high ranking politicians and military who follow this belief.

What is needed, however difficult, however impossible it seems is talks round the table not more wars. The problem may be the Arab's sides, there is a power struggle going on among them to maintain to take control. I do think there are enough Israelis who will talk though. The problem is the people/countries in the background each urging the Israeli's and the Arabs on to hostilities rather than negociations.


I think Americans need to look at why America supports Israel, is it because it's the only democracy in the Middle East at the moment and it's a buffer against radical Islam  or is it because the Christian fundamentalists are pushing their agenda? If the former and you are supporting Israel financially and morally then you should be pushing towards the moderates in Israel. At the moment you are supporting the hawks a la the fundamentalists agenda. I'm not saying that the wrongs Israelis may have done are down to you but I am saying you are supporting the wrong people if you want peace in the Middle East.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 5, 2011)

you are goddamn right i believe it. because it is true.

ONE side tries for peace
ONCE side acts in self defense
ONE side goes out of thier way to avoid casualties

your thinking is so clouded by moral relativism that you cant see straight 

Bob, you are wrong, and so wrong as to be termed 'full of ****" wrong

there are people, arabs, and HEADS OF ARAB STATES....... DAILY crying for the total and complete extermination of all jews, everywhere in the world..

there is  one jewish state, and they aint asking for, or trying to achieve the total extermination of arabs,

it just isnt happening, why?

jews =good guys

arabs=bad guys

it is very simple

thier book tells them to kill all jews, so thier priests tell them to kill all jews so their leaders tell them to kill all jews so the PEOPLE want to kill all jews. Everything from thier church to thier politicians to thier GOD tells them to kill all jews.


Israel has the right to exist, and to protect themselves. We HAVE seen the mettle of the groups involved. Every single cease fire BROKEN BY THE ARABS


Bob Hubbard said:


> You really believe this don't you?
> 
> You're half right.
> If Israel disarmed, they'd be wiped out in a weekend. I don't see anyone calling for them to lay down their arms and report to camps though.
> ...


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## Twin Fist (Aug 5, 2011)

oh, and i am not purely pro israel. I am in favor of cutting all US financial aid to that country, mostly cuz we cant afford it and they dont need it


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## CanuckMA (Aug 5, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> oh, and i am not purely pro israel. I am in favor of cutting all US financial aid to that country, mostly cuz we cant afford it and they dont need it



Can your defense contractors take that kind of financial hit?


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## Twin Fist (Aug 5, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I think Americans need to look at why America supports Israel




two reasons mainly

1) collective guilt over letting the holocaust happen

2) lots of jews in america, and they all vote, and many donate to politicians

also, to a lesser degree, America is the land of the underdog, and in the middle east, Israel is the underdog.

"What is needed, however difficult, however impossible it seems is talks round the table not more wars."

the arabs dont want to talk, nor do they want peace, they want one thing, the systematic and world wide slaughter of every single jew. Yourself included. They say so all the time.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 5, 2011)

So you are ok with murdering children, as long as they are Arab or Muslim.

You just said so.

"Going out of your way to avoid casulties" doesnt = indiscriminatingly shooting up school buses full of kids, or blatant acts of war such as a prolonged bombing attack on a US Warship.
Unless you are a blind, fool.
Only a fool would connect that with 'good guys'.

Your hatred blinds you to your own venom.



Twin Fist said:


> you are goddamn right i believe it. because it is true.
> 
> ONE side tries for peace
> ONCE side acts in self defense
> ...


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## Twin Fist (Aug 5, 2011)

now you sound obtuse bob

bad things happen in war, we all know that. 

Every single cease fire has been broken BY THE ARABS, we all know that too

doing bad things IN SELF DEFENSE is an entirely different animal than doing bad things ON PURPOSE

we all know that too

hell, thats why there is a difference between manslaughter and murder for ****s sake

but you are pretending that israel is just as bad as the arabs and you KNOW they are not.

pretending something is true when you know it isnt is a great example of being obtuse



and the warship thing? that was 45 ****ing years ago. 

and the school bus full of kids? you got any proof that was intentional? cuz if it want intentional, again, see manslaughter vs murder

better question, why even bring that up since you KNOW FULL WELL the arabs would **** thier  pants for a chance to kill that many jewish kids and would do so in a second IF THEY HAD THE CHANCE


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## Twin Fist (Aug 5, 2011)

perfect example, i am a good guy, but you attack me? screw being "good" i am gonna concentrate n being "the guy left alive"

i will use a friggin fork to stab you in the eyes if i HAVE TO, and that wont make me a bad guy, cuz it was in self defense.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 5, 2011)

John, I have hundreds of such things on file.
That's why I'm not so stupid as to go on and on and on about how they are the "Good Guys".

You know who the "Good Guys" are?
Whoever you want to support them.

In 1943, the SS were the "Good Guys", in a **** load of idiots minds.
Those 19 sorry sonsofbitches that flew those planes on 9/11?
Yup, good guys, all of them, to tens of thousands of other idiots.

Don't give me the 'fog of war' BS.
Don't give me the '40 years ago' ****.

You made a declaration.  
I'm just calling you on your blind spots, again.

Admit it.
You are fine with your chosen "Good Guys" doing -anything- they want, as long as it's against those you got a hard on against.
Admit it.

You're perfectly fine with thousands of Arab and Muslim kids and non-combatants blown to bits, but not if it's the kids of anyone you like.

You're ok with a bulldozer running over a protester. A peaceful protester. A bulldozer. Those move how fast?
Intentional Murder.
Rachel Corrie, 23, of Olympia, Washington, March 2003
You're ok with that though right, because she wasn't with the "Good Guys".



> "This morning, when she was killed, she was attempting to prevent the  Israeli military from destroying Palestinian civilian homes," Arraf  said.
> "She was raising her hands and yelling at the bulldozer  driver to stop," Arraf said. "The bulldozer driver paid no attention.  ... He buried Rachel with dirt, which ended up, obviously, knocking her  down. Then he ran over her, and then reversed and ran over her again."


 http://articles.cnn.com/2003-03-16/...el-corrie-israeli-military-source?_s=PM:WORLD

I'm sure the usual postings will follow. "That's irrelivant', '2003 is so long ago', and so forth.

I could post more, so very much more, but why?  Your world view is constrained by your hate.  You see everything so clearly. The root of all evil is Muslim.
You have 10,000 Mexican's invading your home state, but you see the danger being 6,000 miles away.  Such vision.
I'm sure glad to have you here on StormFront-East.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 5, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> perfect example, i am a good guy, but you attack me? screw being "good" i am gonna concentrate n being "the guy left alive"
> 
> i will use a friggin fork to stab you in the eyes if i HAVE TO, and that wont make me a bad guy, cuz it was in self defense.


Your definition of "Self Defense" would have you stabbing ME in the eye with a fork because someone in Frisco smacked your wife.
That's not Self Defense.
That's Assault.

Oh and John.  Better bring an extra fork. In fact, carry 7.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 5, 2011)

rachel corrie was a ****ing IDIOT who is responsible for her own death by jumping in front of a goddam bulldozer.

you have seven eyes? or are you chest puffing? you know, or ought to know i wasnt talking about YOU attacking me, that was a generic "you" bob.

"You are fine with your chosen "Good Guys" doing -anything- they want, as long as it's against those you got a hard on against.
Admit it."

*********, there are lines that israel could cross that i would not support. But thats the thing, Israel wont do those things because they are the good guys.  

Example, Israel, wether they admitt it or not, has nukes, pretty much everyone admits that right? well, why havnt they used them? 

good guys

you know FULL well that if they could? the arabs would have turned every single last jew in israel into air pollution by now.. do you deny that?


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## Twin Fist (Aug 5, 2011)

simple question

do you believe that there should be two seperate crimes called "manslaughter" and "murder"?


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## Twin Fist (Aug 5, 2011)

you know FULL well that if they could? the arabs would have turned every single last jew in israel into air pollution by now.. do you deny that?


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## Twin Fist (Aug 5, 2011)

does ANYONE here think that tomorrow they invented a Jew Killing Gas, and someone gave hammas enough to take out every last jew on the planet, that they WOULDNT do it?


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 5, 2011)

Yes John.  Every Arab out there wants nothing more than to sip aged Jew Blood out of fine china.
You're right. You are always right.
Israel can do no wrong.  Every single case where their armed forces ended the lives of children and non-combatants were just unfortunate accidents during war.
All of those killed could have prevented it, if only they hadn't been born Arab or Muslim, and known to not be where bombs and bullets were going to fall.
Israel is Gods chosen nation, and as soon as I'm done posting, I'm going to go find Uncle Ben and like his rice convert just so I'm one of the "Good Guys".


I quit.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 5, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> does ANYONE here think that tomorrow they invented a Jew Killing Gas, and someone gave hammas enough to take out every last jew on the planet, that they WOULDNT do it?



Anyone on the site think that if tomorrow they invented an Arab and Muslim killing gas that John would't use it?


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## Twin Fist (Aug 5, 2011)

i wouldnt, and DONT MAKE IT PERSONAL


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 5, 2011)

Apologies.


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## billc (Aug 5, 2011)

The Rachel Corrie incident:

http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2010/03/truth-about-rachel-corrie.html

from the blog:

Shaik and Clausen then sent our agency to speak with Corrie&#8217;s friends who were 
with her at the time she was crushed.

Corrie&#8217;s friend Joe Smith described 
how Corrie sat on a mound of dirt facing the IDF bulldozer making its way to the 
house it was about to demolish. &#8220;Rachel had two options&#8221;, Smith said. &#8220;When the 
bulldozer started to dig in the dirt pile, the pile started to move, and she 
could have rolled sideways quickly or fallen backwards to avoid being hit. But 
Rachel leaned forward to climb to the top of the dirt pile. The bulldozer&#8217;s 
digging drew her downward, and its driver could not see her anymore. So without 
lifting the scoop, he turned backward and she was already underneath the 
blade&#8221;

Smith&#8217;s description is very important, since the picture published 
by Reuters shows Corrie standing to the left of the bulldozer, in a location 
where the driver can see her very clearly, as she holds a megaphone in her hand. 
Beneath the picture&#8217;s caption was written: &#8220;Photographed before Rachel Corrie 
was run over by an IDF bulldozer.&#8221;

Everyone who looked at the picture and 
the text understood that the driver, who saw the American civilian standing in 
front of him, just continued crushing Corrie to death. But Joe Smith said that 
the picture was taken hours before she was run over, which happened at 5:00 
p.m., and not a few minutes beforehand. Smith emphasized that at the time of the 
incident and during it, there were no photographers in the area.

ALSO A VIDEO DISCUSSION OF THE EVENT WITH IDF FOOTAGE OF THE EVENT:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=052_1269301864

A review of the event from free republic:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2466903/posts


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## billc (Aug 5, 2011)

another article on the Rachel Corrie accident:

http://www.aish.com/jw/me/88182517.html

from the article:

A misleading photo published by the Associated Press gave the impression that Corrie was standing in front of the bulldozer and shouting at the driver with a megaphone, trying to prevent the driver from tearing down a building in the refugee camp. This photo, which      was taken by a member of Corrie's organization, was not shot at the      time of her death, however, but hours earlier. The photographer said      that Corrie was actually sitting and waving her arms when she was struck.[SUP]56[/SUP]


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## billc (Aug 5, 2011)

A different story about Jenin:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/04/jenin_and_iraq_the_usual_calum.html

from the article:

On the first night of Passover in late March 2002, a Palestinian suicide bomber walked into the Park Hotel in Netanya, Israel and blew himself up in the dining hall. About 200 mostly elderly Jews (some of them Holocaust survivors) were sitting down for the traditional Seder meal. The explosion killed 30 people, and injured over 100, many of them seriously. In the days that followed, the Palestinians unleashed a series of additional suicide bombing attacks in several Israeli cities. In all, 130 Israelis were killed in the attacks, the worst devastation in any period in the three and a half years of the current intifada.

Israeli Prime Minister Sharon decided that there was no longer any purpose in paying any allegiance to the fiction of the Oslo 'peace process'. Israeli forces moved to reoccupy the major Palestinian cities that had been surrendered to the Palestinian Authority in 1995 and 1996, and in certain cities, especially Jenin and Nablus, began house to house searches in the crowded refugee camps to locate the terror leaders who had recruited, trained, armed, and finally dispatched the suicide bombers on their deadly missions.

In Jenin, the IDF made a remarkably careful attempt to capture or kill the terrorists while avoiding harm to Palestinian civilians. The terrorists effectively exploitewd the narrow passages of the Jenin refugee camp, and used the civilian population as shields to trap and then kill 23 Israeli soldiers during the several day battle in the city. All in all, 53 Palestinians were killed in the battle, all but five of them terror group members and fighters.

At West Point, the Israeli operation became a case study, because Americans take the same care to target the enemy and avoid unnecessary civilian casualties. Our improved weapon systems and pinpoint bombing accuracy have served the same purpose. This, of course, is in sharp contrast to the suicide bombers in Israel, or the savages who desecrated the bodies of American civilians they had slaughtered in Fallujah last week. These killers seek maximum lethality. They are callous murderers.

Despite Israeli efforts to avoid civilian casualties, the Jenin battle today is the subject of several proPalestinian movies ('Jenin, Jenin' is one of them), and the source of a major myth. Saeb Erekat, a leading PA official, pointed to piles of dead Palestinians in Jenin, and claimed that Israel had committed, a massacre there, murdering over 500 civilians. In fact, the bodies Erekat pointed to, had, in some cases, been moved from a morgue after natural deaths, but theatrics is a big part of the Palestinian propaganda campaign, and has been for many years.

Major human rights groups were quick to condemn Israel, and slow to investigate what really had happened in Jenin. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are reflexively antiIsrael (and antiAmerican), and were quick to broadcast the Palestinian claims as real. Truth in the end may be uncovered, if anyone is still listening. The smear is what most people remember.


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## billc (Aug 5, 2011)

From the Weekly standard on Jenin:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/218vnicq.asp

from the article:

No, this was an all-out assault on the truth. There was a pitched battle in Jenin. But the "hundreds" of martyrs were a cynical invention. The death toll was 56 Palestinians, the majority of them combatants, and 23 Israeli soldiers


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## Twin Fist (Aug 5, 2011)

hugs


Bob Hubbard said:


> Apologies.


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## Grenadier (Aug 6, 2011)

Glad to see things settled down, but really folks, when it comes to sensitive topics like this, a lot of hassle can be avoided if you simply take a deep breath, re-read what you are about to post, and think about it for just a few seconds before hitting the "Reply" button.  Of course, since this is The Study, maybe a lot of folks are going to be hyperventilating...  

Let's keep this conversation civil.  

Thank you.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


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