# Hong Kong



## KamonGuy2 (Nov 26, 2009)

Just came back from Hong Kong
Disastrous....

Our main aim was to go over and train with Ip chun and maybe a couple of other guys if we could

When I got there, Ip Chun claimed that his class was too full and busy to allow us to train (he had 5 students in his class)

The person who answered the phone for the Gary Lam school basically told us to get lost (no joke)

Wan Kam Leung was fantastic and allowed my students to train for 10 hours for arond 120 HKD, and it was prety much a one on one session (ie his class was empty)

Sam Lau was a complete gentleman and really friendly. Basically asked me to show my forms in front of his students (very embarrasssing), but in exchange he gave me some advice and allowed me to do a bit of chi sao with one of his students. Friendly bunch of guys

But at least I went over there and made the most of it. Very disappointed by Ip Chun. Used to be a bit of a hero of mine, but that image has kind of been tarred


----------



## jks9199 (Nov 26, 2009)

Had you prearranged any of those visits, or did you just show up?  That might have effected the welcome you received...


----------



## hunt1 (Nov 26, 2009)

Yes you really need to pre arrange your training when going over there.


----------



## mook jong man (Nov 26, 2009)

Kamon Guy said:


> Just came back from Hong Kong
> Disastrous....
> 
> Our main aim was to go over and train with Ip chun and maybe a couple of other guys if we could
> ...


 
Sorry to hear about that mate , but it sounds like one of those deals where you have to have a letter from someone to get into the joint.

For instance when people from our school were going to Hong Kong to train with Sigung Tsui they would have to have a letter from our master or Sigung would not teach them.

It seems a bit funny to our western way of thinking but thats the way they do things over there apparently.

But still you'd think they'd be a bit more welcoming , considering you came all the way from bloody England.

I don't know mate , if they want the art to die out they're going the right way about it , with some of the fees they charge and the way they act.

It wasn't a complete loss though mate , at least you still got a bit of training in and you will know better next time if you ever decide to go back there.


----------



## KamonGuy2 (Nov 27, 2009)

I had emailed the Ving Tsun address on the website (twice) and my old instructor regularly travels over there to train, and told them we would be coming over - although he is of Chinese descent...

The excuse given was that since the release of the Yip Man, his class has been busy and he can't accomodate everyone. A fact I would totally agree with if his class had been full!!

It was just very disappointing as I had heard that Ip Chun is usually very friendly and makes the effort to train with everyone
I was also very disappointed to hear him say both in person and on youtube that wing chun is more about health than combat and would not realy work against multiple attackers or in pressurised situations


----------



## hunt1 (Nov 27, 2009)

Yip Chun freely admits he never has had any kind of fight in his adult life so you have to take anything he says about fighting and how to use wing chun with a cup or two of salt.


----------



## KamonGuy2 (Nov 27, 2009)

hunt1 said:


> Yip Chun freely admits he never has had any kind of fight in his adult life so you have to take anything he says about fighting and how to use wing chun with a cup or two of salt.


 
Oh yeah I knew he hadnt had any fights (or none that he wants to admit to), but its a bit bad to say that wing chun isnt really for fighting, especially after all the good work his father put in to making it a useful style

But anyway, this isnt really a personal attack on Ip Chun - he is damn good at what he does, but its kind of like me opening a Yoga school and saying that Yoga wont get you flexible or fit - it is just for fun


----------



## bully (Nov 27, 2009)

Kamon Guy said:


> I had emailed the Ving Tsun address on the website (twice) and my old instructor regularly travels over there to train, and told them we would be coming over - although he is of Chinese descent...
> 
> The excuse given was that since the release of the Yip Man, his class has been busy and he can't accomodate everyone. A fact I would totally agree with if his class had been full!!
> 
> ...



Got any links to that?

Had a search but cant see it.


----------



## mook jong man (Nov 27, 2009)

Kamon Guy said:


> I had emailed the Ving Tsun address on the website (twice) and my old instructor regularly travels over there to train, and told them we would be coming over - although he is of Chinese descent...
> 
> The excuse given was that since the release of the Yip Man, his class has been busy and he can't accomodate everyone. A fact I would totally agree with if his class had been full!!
> 
> ...


 
Hmm , I think Wong Sheung Leung might have disagreed with him there.


----------



## geezer (Nov 27, 2009)

Kamon Guy said:


> Just came back from Hong Kong
> Disastrous....
> 
> Our main aim was to go over and train with Ip chun and maybe a couple of other guys if we could ...When I got there, Ip Chun claimed that his class was too full and busy to allow us to train (he had 5 students in his class) ...Very disappointed by Ip Chun. Used to be a bit of a hero of mine, but that image has kind of been tarred




A si-dai of mine and a couple of his friends were in Hong Kong a few years back and had a similar experience. When they stopped by Yip Chun's studio as arranged, apparently he wouldn't even answer the door. Then again, my si-dai was a student of Leung Ting at that time and what with WC/WT/VT politics being what they are, I can understand Yip Chun wasn't feeling especially welcoming on that occasion, no matter how sincere my si-dai was about meeting him.

So Kamon, you have my sympathy. I would love an opportunity to train under one of Yip Man's sons. On the other hand, I've heard several very high level people point out that Wing Chun is not something that's inherited... so I don't know if Yip Chun really merited "hero" status or not. I do know that _my_ former instructor didn't! If you've followed the news from Hong Kong, you know what I'm talking about. At any rate it's good to have you back and posting again.


----------



## Tensei85 (Nov 29, 2009)

Kamon Guy said:


> Just came back from Hong Kong
> Disastrous....
> 
> Our main aim was to go over and train with Ip chun and maybe a couple of other guys if we could
> ...


 
You have my sympathy as well but on the bright side atleast you got some training in, so it wasn't a completely worthless trip & I imagine you had an opportunity to check out some of the sites as well. Hong Kong is a great place & has a lot to offer in the realms of tourism.

Good luck with training


----------



## Laoshi77 (Dec 2, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Hmm , I think Wong Sheung Leung might have disagreed with him there.


 
Master Wong's WC was a little different though in the sense that it was modified for fighting.



			
				Tensei85 said:
			
		

> Hong Kong is a great place & has a lot to offer in the realms of tourism.


 
Absolutely, HK is one of the most interesting and friendly (major) cities I've ever visited. I'd love to go back soon!


----------



## MattB (Dec 3, 2009)

Hey I studied in Hong Kong a few years back I had a good time. I lived there for about a year. I can understand the problem what alot of pepole had when trying to train there. I joined a club at a college and through some the other club members I got to meet & train with other Wing Chun experts. It seems that the proplem for some of you is that you go right to the Master frist. In China personal realtionships or improtant so you cant just show up. 
Also I don't Ip Chun teaches publicaly anymore.

 Sorry for being offline in like forever


----------



## KamonGuy2 (Dec 4, 2009)

Laoshi77 said:


> Master Wong's WC was a little different though in the sense that it was modified for fighting


You can see that through Wan Kam Leung who was great 
A lot of good wing chun schools will use it practically. I admire teachers for being honest with arts that they teach (ie if something is a sports based art like TKD then say it is that etc)Too many instructors try and make out that their art is the best art in the world and had some link to Bruce Lee etc

Wing chun is an art that is ideal for street use. It has limited applications in sport (chi sao competitions etc), and there are much better arts for fitness (boxing, tai bo, BJJ). Why a master would suggest it is solely for fitness is beyond me. It is like George Foreman coming out and saying that boxing could never be used in the ring



Laoshi77 said:


> Absolutely, HK is one of the most interesting and friendly (major) cities I've ever visited. I'd love to go back soon!


 I wouldnt say friendly!! One woman started shouting 'immigant' at me in a supermarket! Most people shoved into me as I was walking down the road. 
The only friendly place there was Wan Chai and well...lets not go there...

It is certainly an interesting place though. Very colourful and busy.


----------



## Zero (Dec 4, 2009)

Kamon Guy said:


> I wouldnt say friendly!! One woman started shouting 'immigant' at me in a supermarket! Most people shoved into me as I was walking down the road.
> The only friendly place there was Wan Chai and well...lets not go there...
> 
> It is certainly an interesting place though. Very colourful and busy.


 
I think you should give HK another go sometime Maybe when you have a for-sure invite arranged for your students). The "immigrant" thing was probably a one-off and the streets are busy, with different "pedestrian" rules/etiquette. I have been there a half dozen times and the place is a great destination with a lot of fun to be had and is generally safe. Great cheap food too!


----------



## hunt1 (Dec 4, 2009)

Kamon Guy Yip Chuns comments about wing chun and fighting go back to the time he Kicked Sam Kwok out of his organization . I think that was 7 to 10 years or so ago. While he has since gotten over it and accepted Sam. The incident occured because Sam started training with Yip Ching  and made comments that Yip Chings wing chun was the fighting wing chun and Yip Chuns was not.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 4, 2009)

geezer said:


> A si-dai of mine and a couple of his friends were in Hong Kong a few years back and had a similar experience. When they stopped by Yip Chun's studio as arranged, apparently he wouldn't even answer the door. Then again, my si-dai was a student of Leung Ting at that time and what with WC/WT/VT politics being what they are, I can understand Yip Chun wasn't feeling especially welcoming on that occasion, no matter how sincere my si-dai was about meeting him.
> 
> So Kamon, you have my sympathy. I would love an opportunity to train under one of Yip Man's sons. On the other hand, I've heard several very high level people point out that Wing Chun is not something that's inherited... so I don't know if Yip Chun really merited "hero" status or not. I do know that _my_ former instructor didn't! If you've followed the news from Hong Kong, you know what I'm talking about. At any rate it's good to have you back and posting again.


 
 My Wing Chun sifu was/is a student of Ip Ching and he is very happy and rather skilled too. I meant Ip Ching once and he seemed like a good guy.

So there is always Ip Ching (the younger son) 

 
Kamon I am sorry to hear about the Ip Chun stuff, I know nothing about him actually other than his books I have read but from what little I know of Wing Chun politics nothing surprises me.


----------



## geezer (Dec 4, 2009)

hunt1 said:


> ...Sam started training with Yip Ching and made comments that Yip Chings wing chun was the fighting wing chun and Yip Chuns was not.


 
I'd heard something similar, but less polite from some Hong Kong Chinese Sifus way back in the 80's. It was something like, "Yip Chun only knows half of what Yip Ching knows... and that is _nothing!" _Personally, I felt this statement reflected very badly on the speakers and disregarded it. (And, if indeed that is the case, I would be quite content to reach the level of knowing _"nothing"_ someday).

On the other hand, I recall another occasion on which my former sifu commented, in reference to Yip Chun and Yip Ching that, "Everone thinks that it should be the older brother who is always the better one. But I tell you the truth, it is not always the case." 

Now I've never met either Yip brother, and if I did, I doubt that I have the knowledge to make such a judgement for myself. But Hunt, you seem to be privy to a lot of behind the scenes talk. In your experience, is there anything like a general concensus on this question about the Yips among their peers in Wing Chun?


----------



## blindsage (Dec 4, 2009)

Laoshi77 said:


> Master Wong's WC was a little different though in the sense that it was modified for fighting.


I'm confused, so what Yip Man taught wasn't for fighting?


----------



## Nabakatsu (Dec 4, 2009)

No Blindsage, that's not whats going on here, just the specific way the sons of yip man have trained and taught or perhaps more specifically Yip Chun. 
WSL and others certainly would not agree with his views.


----------



## geezer (Dec 4, 2009)

blindsage said:


> I'm confused, so what Yip Man taught wasn't for fighting?


 
Exactly. It was for _winning_ fights!


----------



## MattB (Dec 5, 2009)

Zero said:


> I think you should give HK another go sometime Maybe when you have a for-sure invite arranged for your students). The "immigrant" thing was probably a one-off and the streets are busy, with different "pedestrian" rules/etiquette. I have been there a half dozen times and the place is a great destination with a lot of fun to be had and is generally safe. Great cheap food too!


 
Me to! I realy liked Hong Kong myself. It is so different from my father's days when it was a pretty dangerous place to live with a lot of crime and political protests ect...  still there are places that it is best for westerners to stay out of. And also you have to remember that the Chinese can be very xenocentric and look down on non chinese, but mostly Hong Kongese seem to me to be  more tolerant about that. Unless you are shino-Vietnamese or Thai that is. Still  I want to go back as soon as I can hopefully for graduate school.


----------



## hunt1 (Dec 5, 2009)

Geezer kinda hard to answer since the opinions vary. First Yip Chun by his own writing admits to not taking wing chun seriously until 1967, Yip Ching started as soon as they moved to HK in 1962. 
 Moy Yat learned all that he did because he was best friends with Yip Ching. Also several of Yip Mans post 65 students say Yip Ching was Yip Mans helper for their private lessons.
 Both sons lived with their father and  were taught by him but also learned the basics from others. They learned like everyone else in public classes. The big difference is they were able to ask questions and get straight answers. Something few others were able to do.

 Of the two most liked Yip Ching more than Yip Chun. WSL couldn't stand Yip Chun for example. As to their wing chun. They are different but part of that is that yip Chun holds back. Can't say for sure about Yip Ching.  Duncan Leung has said he likes Yip Chuns wing chun and thinks Yip Chings is bad but I don't know on what he based his opinion. Overall I always had the feeling that Yip Ching was more respected among his peers in HK than Yip Chun.


----------



## KamonGuy2 (Dec 7, 2009)

The really funny thing is that when my students turned up to train with Ip chun and were turned away, Ip Ching offered to train them but they did not know who he was!! Idiots!

I saw Ip Ching doing the forms and it blew me away

Like I said the Hong Kong guys theory work is exceptional. Great at forms and great at chi sao. A couple of sifus over there (Wan Kam Leung) ar extremely good at the more practical side, and that to me is what wing chun is all about

I know people harp on about how Ip Chun has never had a fight (I dont think that bears too much relevance on martial art technique), but I would have thought he still would have had faith in his art


----------



## Laoshi77 (Dec 7, 2009)

blindsage said:


> I'm confused, so what Yip Man taught wasn't for fighting?


 
I didn't say that. However there is no actual eye-witness accounts of Yip Man fighting(?) or am I confused with Yip Chun? The man who tested WC was Wong Shun Leung as a result his WC became a modified form based on what he learned through testing WC in 'Beimo' against other stylists of martial arts be it boxing, Judo, Choy Li Fut etc.



			
				Kamon Guy said:
			
		

> I wouldnt say friendly!! One woman started shouting 'immigant' at me in a supermarket! Most people shoved into me as I was walking down the road.
> The only friendly place there was Wan Chai and well...lets not go there...
> 
> It is certainly an interesting place though. Very colourful and busy.


Sorry to hear that!
Although I've only been once I did think the people were friendly especially in comparison to mainland China and in particular Beijing.
I remember walking around looking lost several times and local HK people stopped to ask if I needed directions; little things like that make a big impact to me.


----------



## geezer (Dec 7, 2009)

Kamon Guy said:


> The really funny thing is that when my students turned up to train with Ip chun and were turned away, Ip Ching offered to train them but they did not know who he was!! Idiots!
> 
> I saw Ip Ching doing the forms and it blew me away...


 
Well then... I'd say your students have nothing to complain about. It sounds like an amazing  opportunity was presented and they didn't take full advantage of it. 

And for all your dissappointment, Kamon, now at least you've been to Hong Kong and met and trained a bit with these legends. I'm _still _jealous!!!


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 7, 2009)

Kamon Guy said:


> I wouldnt say friendly!! One woman started shouting 'immigant' at me in a supermarket! Most people shoved into me as I was walking down the road.


 
I was called Guilo in a Chinese Bakery in Boston, no big thing.

As for shoving into you, go to any Crowded Chinese Market in the US and you will get the same thing they will not only be shoving into you but each other as well and I ran into this same thing in crowded places in Beijing and on Buses too. 

I do not know exactly what your experience was but from my pov it was pretty much a cultural difference. The idea of personal space in China is VERY different from what it is here in the US.


----------



## KamonGuy2 (Dec 8, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> I was called Guilo in a Chinese Bakery in Boston, no big thing.
> 
> As for shoving into you, go to any Crowded Chinese Market in the US and you will get the same thing they will not only be shoving into you but each other as well and I ran into this same thing in crowded places in Beijing and on Buses too.
> 
> I do not know exactly what your experience was but from my pov it was pretty much a cultural difference. The idea of personal space in China is VERY different from what it is here in the US.


 
Yeah except I dont live in the US....

I go to Chinatown in London quite a lot and most people are fairly friendly

Hong Kong was extremely different - people were bouncing off me down the street and said nothing. When I held a door open for people I got around 50 Chinese guys walking through without any acknowledgment

Rude is rude. I know all about cultural differences (London is extremely multi-ethnic), and whilst rudeness can vary from culture to culture, bumping into someone in the street is a rude gesture

Being called Guilo is not a big thing. Just like being called a honky etc. Being shouted at in the middle of a busy supermarket, for doing nothing other than shopping, is


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 8, 2009)

Kamon Guy said:


> Yeah except I dont live in the US....
> 
> I go to Chinatown in London quite a lot and most people are fairly friendly
> 
> ...


 
Sorry you had such a bad time

Chinatowns in the US are fairly friendly as well but go into a crowded market and you will get bumped into just as much as the Chinese people that are shopping there.

And for the record I was also called a Geijin (rather loudly) in the middle of a bookstore in Beijing for no apparent reason what-so-everm which surprised me since it was a foreign Bookstore full of other people from other countries. But then I found that one rather humorous since I was in Beijing being insulted by a Japanese person who was likely less liked than I was in China. I was stared at, pointed out, bumped into and from time to time followed in Beijing since I was an obvious foreigner in areas foreigners don't go. I had even had some CMA People stop training when I approached, but all in all I had a good time (once I figured out how to get people to stop staring at me that is) and will go back&#8230; 

But then that is the North and things can be considerably different in the South. 

But we must face the fact that in reality we ARE foreigners in China


----------



## wkmark (Dec 15, 2009)

Kamon Guy said:


> The really funny thing is that when my students turned up to train with Ip chun and were turned away, Ip Ching offered to train them but they did not know who he was!! Idiots!
> 
> I saw Ip Ching doing the forms and it blew me away
> 
> ...




Feel free to drop me a PM the next time you are in Hong Kong.  We'd be more than happy to exchange Wing Chun ideas with your school.  Btw, we train under the WSL method.


----------



## David Peterson (Mar 11, 2010)

_


Laoshi77 said:



			Master Wong's WC was a little different though in the sense that it was modified for fighting.
		
Click to expand...

_


Laoshi77 said:


> Sorry, but I have to disagree with that statement - my Sifu, Wong Shun Leung, didn't "modify" the Wing Chun he learnt from Ip Man, ...he APPLIED IT!!! ...and in doing so, found better ways of both training and developing what was already (and STILL IS!!!) a brilliant combat system. The difference is the hard work and the constant effort that he put into his training, not to mention the science and logic that he applied to it at all times.
> 
> As a side point, my late Sifu had a lot of time for Ip Ching and considered him a good friend. As another poster has already mentioned, he couldn't stand Ip Chun (and based on the way in which Ip Chun behaved after my Sifu's passing, I'm not surprised!!!), and as far as the man's training is concerned, while his father was teaching Wing Chun and his Si-hing-dai (including his brother) practised their skills, it is commonly known that Ip Chun sat at the back of the classroom strumming his guitar and singing.
> 
> ...


----------



## hunt1 (Mar 12, 2010)

Dave a couple of WSL questions. After Yip Bo Ching died  WSL became the knife man and Yip Man taught him the 12 section form . Choreography bit different than YBC but sections the same. Did WSL ever teach this form to Yip Ching?

 I have seen WSL teach 2 different dummy forms. The older one and the one  Yip Man did on his final 8mm film. Did he have any preference or see any real difference in the forms as far the the practical information they contained?


----------



## David Peterson (Mar 13, 2010)

_


hunt1 said:



			Dave a couple of WSL questions. After Yip Bo Ching died WSL became the knife man and Yip Man taught him the 12 section form . Choreography bit different than YBC but sections the same. Did WSL ever teach this form to Yip Ching?
		
Click to expand...

_


hunt1 said:


> _I have seen WSL teach 2 different dummy forms. The older one and the one Yip Man did on his final 8mm film. Did he have any preference or see any real difference in the forms as far the the practical information they contained?_


 
Not sure where you get your numbers from, Hunt1, but there certainly aren't 12 sections in my Sifu's knife form - depending on how you want to count it, maybe 9 or 10. To the best of my knowledge, Sifu did NOT teach the form to anyone other than his own students, so I cannot substantiate any claim that he taught Ip Ching - from what I have seen of Ip Ching's form, they are VERY different from each other.

Sifu was constantly reviewing and refining his 'Muk Yan Jong' form, but I never saw him demonstrate or teach the form in the way that Ip Man originally did it (although on occasions he did describe the differences and show some of the ideas involved ), and even the "version" of the form that he was demonstrating just before his death (the so-called "normalised" form) is still at least slightly different from even the footage of Ip Man playing the 'Jong' shortly prior to his death. 
DMP


----------



## hunt1 (Mar 13, 2010)

Thanks for replying Dave,.
 I have tapes of WSL doing  both dummy forms never met him so just curious about his doing the different forms. Same for the knives. Yes Yip Ching form is different. Just wondered if WSL had also taught him the longer knife form since you said he got on with Yip Ching.


----------

