# Naval Shipyard Shooting



## Grenadier (Sep 17, 2013)

Condolences to the victims, and their families.  

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/09/17/active-shooter-at-washington-navy-yard/



> Navy veteran Aaron Alexis, who killed 12 people at a Navy building in  Washington Monday morning, had been suffering a host of serious mental  issues, including paranoia and a sleep disorder, law enforcement  officials told the Associated Press.
> 
> 
> Alexis had been hearing voices in his head and had been treated since  August by the Veterans Administration for his mental problems, the  officials said. They spoke on condition of anonymity because the  criminal investigation in the case was continuing.
> ...





Not surprisingly, even though the blood of the victims was still warm, the gun-grabbers seized this opportunity to screech about their political ends:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/16/navy-yard-shooting-revives-gun-control-fight/

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013...ecutive-actions-following-navy-yard-shooting/


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## K-man (Sep 17, 2013)

> The dead gunman has been identified as 34-year-old civilian contractor Aaron Alexis, originally from Fort Worth, Texas. His identity was confirmed by photographic ID found on his body.
> 
> 
> He is believed to have a criminal record and hold a concealed carry weapon permit.
> ...


Seems to me that with his record he shouldn't have been able to own a gun, but I'm probably more on side with the gun-grabbers. :asian:


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## arnisador (Sep 17, 2013)

Grenadier said:


> Not surprisingly, even though the blood of the victims was still warm, the gun-grabbers seized this opportunity to screech about their political ends:



Not surprisingly, that's what you did in the second sentence of your post on this here.


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## Grenadier (Sep 17, 2013)

arnisador said:


> Not surprisingly, that's what you did in the second sentence of your post on this here.



You are free to interpret it as you please.  I have simply condemned those dancing around in a blood bath.


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## Tgace (Sep 17, 2013)

The simple fact that the grabbers are already trying to make a case against the AR15 when it's starting to look like the shooter either shot a guard with a Biden approved shotgun and took the rifle..or never had a rifle at all...only goes to show how little they care about facts as long as a tragedy supports their politics.


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 17, 2013)

Tgace said:


> The simple fact that the grabbers are already trying to make a case against the AR15 when it's starting to look like the shooter either shot a guard with a Biden approved shotgun and took the rifle..or never had a rifle at all...only goes to show how little they care about facts as long as a tragedy supports their politics.



When did they care about anything other than themselves though?  That harpie Feinstein's already cackling gleefully and dreaming up ways to exploit this.  These agenda pushing nannys will only see the word gun in the discussion.  They'll skip over things like "he had mental issues", "he had a shotgun", "he smuggled it into a secured location", "his victims were unarmed and unable to defend themselves" because "Eek, it was a scary gun. Damn the facts, eek it was a gun".

People like Feinstein are disgusting cowards.


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## Steve (Sep 17, 2013)

Sure glad you guys aren't dancing gleefully in the blood bath.  Wow.

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## arnisador (Sep 17, 2013)

Tgace said:


> The simple fact that the grabbers are already trying to make a case against the AR15 when it's starting to look like the shooter either shot a guard with a Biden approved shotgun and took the rifle..or never had a rifle at all...only goes to show how little they care about facts as long as a tragedy supports their politics.



The simple fact that the gun nuts' first concern is for their guns tells me a great deal. People like me who favor greater gun control do so _because _of tragedies like this. But the gun nuts aren't at all bothered that this individual was able to obtain a firearm to carry out a massacre--that's just the system working as intended, apparently.


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## Grenadier (Sep 17, 2013)

arnisador said:


> The simple fact that the gun nuts' first concern is for their guns tells me a great deal. People like me who favor greater gun control do so _because _of tragedies like this.



You're getting caught up in the hype.  While such tragedies have occurred, they're but a miniscule portion of the murders that go on otherwise.  

From Bloomberg.com

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...uel-fear-account-for-fraction-of-murders.html



> The mass slaughters listed in the report caused the deaths of 547  people. Over the same three decades through 2012, that&#8217;s less than a  tenth of 1 percent of the 559,347 people the Federal Bureau of  Investigation estimates were murdered in America.
> 
> 
> &#8220;It is a very, very small percentage,&#8221; said James Alan Fox, who teaches criminology at Boston&#8217;s Northeastern University and co-authored a book about mass shootings called &#8220;Extreme Killing,&#8221; published in 2011.
> ...








			
				arnisador said:
			
		

> But the gun nuts aren't at all bothered that this individual was able to obtain a firearm to carry out a massacre--that's just the system working as intended, apparently.



Exactly who are the "gun nuts" to which you are referring?  All I see are people logically pointing out that the gun-grabbers are in an emotional frenzy, and trying to rely on emotional hype to get laws passed that wouldn't have done *anything* to stop this madman.  

Painting law-abiding firearms owners with a broad brush stroke isn't going to help your argument.  You'll find that the overwhelming majority of firearms owners are wondering exactly *why* this guy wasn't placed on the prohibited person's list, since he did have quite a history of mental health issues:


http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/09/17/aaron-alexis-profile-insight-into-d-c-navy-yard-shooter/

You're pointing the finger of blame at the wrong entity.  The system should have worked, but someone failed to update the database properly.  

In the end, it wouldn't have made a single difference.  The madman would have simply found a way to obtain firearms illegally.  If anything, preliminary reports show that he was able to steal more firearms from the base.  


If your assertion held any merit, then someone should be able to point a finger of blame at you for favoring the ease at which people can obtain driver's licenses each time some illegal alien goes out and causes a traffic-related death.  

As it stands, you are obviously not responsible for such drivers wreaking havoc any more than the law-abiding folks are for the lunatic going on this rampage.  You obey the laws, and do not bear any of the responsibility each time some illegal alien causes bad things to happen with vehicles.


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## arnisador (Sep 17, 2013)

Grenadier said:


> Exactly who are the "gun nuts" to which you are referring?  All I see are people logically pointing out that the gun-grabbers



Sheesh.



> Painting law-abiding firearms owners with a broad brush stroke isn't going to help your argument.



Double-sheesh.


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## Grenadier (Sep 17, 2013)

arnisador said:


> Sheesh.
> 
> 
> 
> Double-sheesh.



Since you haven't answered the question, I suggest that you look at the facts of the situation.  

Cliffs notes:

Navy yard shooter (abbreviated NYS from here on out) was mentally unstable.  

NYS had quite a checkered past, including several incidents that should have been resulted in felony convictions, and should have been reported to BATF / FBI.  

NYS should have been declared mentally unfit.  Medical records should have been sent to the BATF / FBI.  They weren't.  

NYS even held a security clearance that he should not have held, given his mentally unstable condition.


Where exactly does the fault lie when it comes to law-abiding firearms owners who obey the laws?


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## Tgace (Sep 17, 2013)

Who at this point knows how this guy got ahold of his gun?


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## Grenadier (Sep 17, 2013)

Tgace said:


> Who at this point knows how this guy got ahold of his gun?



He did purchase the shotgun (a Remington 870 slide action shotgun) at a firearms store.  He did pass the ATF4473 check, since none of the medical records had been put into the FBI NICS database, and because criminal charges were apparently never pursued properly.


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## Tgace (Sep 17, 2013)

Grenadier said:


> He did purchase the shotgun (a Remington 870 slide action shotgun) at a firearms store.  He did pass the ATF4473 check, since none of the medical records had been put into the FBI NICS database, and because criminal charges were apparently never pursued properly.



So what law do we pass to prevent that???


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 17, 2013)

Grenadier said:


> Cliffs notes:
> 
> Navy yard shooter (abbreviated NYS from here on out) was mentally unstable.
> 
> ...




This is the crux of this particular situation.

*Agencies need to report and communicate with other agencies. * 

I can remember back in almost another lifetime when I was responsible for doing background checks on employees.  I did a customary State police background check on all individuals as well as an interview before they were hired by their employer.  One time an individual passed the State background check, passed all interviews but I was still iffy but pressured into letting him through the door. (they needed the person)  This kept nagging at me so a few day's later I started doing background checks through local counties and after about six checks I came back with a Breaking and Entering Felony conviction on him.  Needless to say he was immediately released based on his lying on his application. (no felony convictions)  However, the crux of that situation is that the county did not report as they should have to the State.  Which screwed everything up on the background check.  See where I am going with this.  *Communication between county, state and the federal government needs to improve!* In this situation no one was talking to each other and reporting.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 17, 2013)

I would also add that communication between mental health agencies to local, state and federal law enforcement needs to improve as well!


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 17, 2013)

Tgace said:


> So what law do we pass to prevent that???



Doesn't matter, as long as it does "something", does it "fast" and makes the fools pushing it feel good.  Anything else like rational thought, careful deliberation and weighing things is to be avoided.  Pass something now while emotions are high, before people have time to think.  It's better that way. /sarcasm


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 17, 2013)

[h=1]Feinstein calls for new gun control laws again after Navy Yard shooting[/h]





> California Democratic Sen. Dianne Feinstein is renewing her call for  new gun-control laws because of Monday&#8217;s deadly Navy Yard shooting.
> ...&#8220;There are reports the killer was armed with an AR-15, a shotgun and a  semiautomatic pistol when he stormed an American military installation  in the nation&#8217;s capital and took at least 12 innocent lives,&#8221; she said.
> Feinstein has long been an anti-gun rights activist. After last  year&#8217;s Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, she unsuccessfully pushed  to ban more than 150 types of firearms, including rifles, pistols and  shotguns.
> On Monday, she reiterated a call for new legislation in light of the Navy Yard shootings.
> &#8220;This is one more event to add to the litany of massacres that occur  when a deranged person or grievance killer is able to obtain multiple  weapons &#8212; including a military-style assault rifle &#8212; and kill many  people in a short amount of time,&#8221; Feinstein said.


http://dailycaller.com/2013/09/16/f...-control-laws-again-after-navy-yard-shooting/

Vulture Feinstein will let no tragedy, reality or respect for the victims stand in her way of her agenda.  

1 - The FBI said there is no indication that an AR-15 was used.  But it sure is a nice boogyman to wave around.

2 - FBI is reporting that the shooter had -1- weapon, the shotgun.  He obtained the other weapons from his victims.

Now if those guards hadn't been armed, the killer couldn't have taken them.  Maybe the guards can be arrested for negligence in allowing their duty weapons to be taken from them.  After all, isn't that another thing the agendaists want - gun holders held responsible for what happens to their guns when out of their control?

3 - "Stormed".  I picture him charging, machine gun in each hand, blazing away, thousands of rounds flying, puppies being cut in half.  Not driving calmly through a gate, handing over ID, saying "Morning Frank" to the guard, parking, then opening the trunk and calmly removing a shotgun from under his duffle.  But hey, that "Storming" image sure sounds impressive.

Feinstein is bat **** crazy, an enemy of the Constitution, an enemy of freedom, and the sooner she is retired the better for the nation.  If we need more laws can be decided later.  Right now, let the guys in law enforcement finish their investigation and come up with the actual facts and truth in this tragedy, before going off half cocked and emotionally charged to fastpass bad and useless laws.  Only a fool would rush.


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## Takai (Sep 17, 2013)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Only a fool would rush.



Or a Senator. Aren't they about the same thing these days?


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## Big Don (Sep 17, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> This is the crux of this particular situation.
> 
> *Agencies need to report and communicate with other agencies. *


Copyright the 9/11 commission report...
I thought we learned that lesson.


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## Steve (Sep 17, 2013)

I agree mostly with the gun advocates on the issue.  On the issues themselves, I think there are few laws that could be passed which would prevent this sort of tragedy.  This guy, it turns out, did have some gun related incidents in his past.  But nothing to preclude him from owning the shotgun he used.   The sad truth is that the first time someone goes bonkers, it will likely be a surprise.  The best we can really do is to prevent them from doing it twice.

But, man, the bodies are barely cold and I see two threads joyfully flouting the "gun grabbers" and using intentionally inflammatory language to bait an argument.  Even as you guys accuse the "gun grabbers" of dancing gleefully in the blood, you can't wait to start a politically charged thread doing exactly that.


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 17, 2013)

You'll recall I asked repeatedly the last time for time for proper  investigation and was shouted at that it couldn't wait for rational  thought, but needed to be discussed while emotions were hot. The problem Steve is 1 side respects the victims and would like to table these discussions until the investigation is over.  The other side has an agenda they need to push and a tragedy to exploit.  If we remain quiet, they will fast track more panicked useless laws. It's because of vipers like Feinstein that this dance is happening.  Pro-2nd Amendment groups would prefer to allow decency to prevail, but have learned that to do so, allows rights to be stolen, and regaining them is a slow, expensive and iffy road.


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## Tgace (Sep 17, 2013)

Joy?

Please Steve...which "side" is the one scrambling to pass legislation on all of us the moment tragedy strikes?

There's a difference between "sides" in this situation. 

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## Tgace (Sep 17, 2013)

I'm waiting for the NYSAFER Act to be passed while sleep now. 


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## jks9199 (Sep 17, 2013)

Grenadier said:


> Since you haven't answered the question, I suggest that you look at the facts of the situation.
> 
> Cliffs notes:
> 
> ...


*Could* have resulted in felony convictions.  Unless you're privy to the details of each proceeding, should is making an assumption.





> NYS should have been declared mentally unfit.  Medical records should have been sent to the BATF / FBI.  They weren't.


It's unclear why this wasn't done -- and it's unclear what, if any, diagnosis was reached.





> NYS even held a security clearance that he should not have held, given his mentally unstable condition.
> 
> 
> Where exactly does the fault lie when it comes to law-abiding firearms owners who obey the laws?



It's rather early in the investigation to point fingers or even try to figure out what was what...


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## ballen0351 (Sep 17, 2013)

How come every time this happens the Govt wants to go after the guns of the innocent?  They should make military bases a gun free zone


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