# Article on Judo and BJJ



## TMA17 (Sep 25, 2018)

Interesting take on the two:

Judo for BJJ - Grapplearts


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## Hanzou (Sep 26, 2018)

I think this thread would have some movement if you expressed your thoughts on both arts.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 26, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Even top sport judoka specialize in just 3-5 throws that they know inside and out, and then develop combinations between them.  For example, most judo throws and trips have classic combinations where the opponent defending the first attack will leave an opening for the 2nd technique.


This is a very important principle in the throwing art. For example, you can use single leg to set up more than 10 different throws such as:

- single leg, downward pull.
- single leg, foot sweep.
- single leg, inner hook.
- single leg, twist and spring.
- single leg, leg lift.
- single leg, hand block.
- single  leg, hand harmony.
- single leg, embracing.
- single leg, knee pressing.
- single leg, leg block.
- ...


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## TMA17 (Sep 26, 2018)

Judo is an awesome art from everything I've read about it.  I think in your later years, it's better to study BJJ and add in other lower risk takedowns either from wrestling or low risk Judo takedowns.  Judo requires a lot of time invested into throws, which can be really effective, but very hard on your body.  It's a lot of time invested for perfecting throws.  The learning curve seems to be high.

I found this interesting:
"Learn to deal with stances that are overly defensive.  Most BJJ matches will have both competitors in a bent over *defensive posture* that would be a defensive penalty in judo. Secondly, double leg takedowns are popular in BJJ but prohibited in the current judo rules, so the BJJ player must use a lower stance to defend against that attack. Judoka in contrast use a very *strong upright stance*."

Wrestlers are in a more hunched over stance, which is more defensive.


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## PiedmontChun (Oct 2, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Judo is an awesome art from everything I've read about it.  I think in your later years, it's better to study BJJ and add in other lower risk takedowns either from wrestling or low risk Judo takedowns.  Judo requires a lot of time invested into throws, which can be really effective, but very hard on your body.  It's a lot of time invested for perfecting throws.  The learning curve seems to be high.
> 
> I found this interesting:
> "Learn to deal with stances that are overly defensive.  Most BJJ matches will have both competitors in a bent over *defensive posture* that would be a defensive penalty in judo. Secondly, double leg takedowns are popular in BJJ but prohibited in the current judo rules, so the BJJ player must use a lower stance to defend against that attack. Judoka in contrast use a very *strong upright stance*."
> ...



You could probably say the learning curve is pretty high in lots of arts, but otherwise I would agree with this. BJJ guys will favor a lower stance that keeps their hips back. It makes perfect sense since the sport rule set doesn't discourage it and a lower center of gravity = more stable.Throws that require turning in and "loading" the uke, like most hip throws, are just harder to setup when someone is being really defensive and keeping their hips back and low. When I tryto put Judo techniques to use against BJJ guys, I have better luck with attacking the legs, or have to chaining leg attacks together to really force a reaction to setup a throw that requires turning in. But my Judo is weak. Never underestimate a good Judoka in a BJJ match.


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## wab25 (Oct 2, 2018)

Great article!
I would like to add my two cents as a Danzan Ryu guy. Learn to fall correctly. There are quite a few counter techniques that can be done, while your are being thrown. However, you have to be comfortable taking the fall. When I show some of these mid throw reversals to Judo guys, they don't like them as you land properly and the ref shouts "Ippon!" Even though you choke him out right after or bar his arm right after. Since we are discussing BJJ (and possibly other non-judo grappling) these mid throw reversals start to come in handy, because there is always someone out there who can throw you. Why not come out of the throw with a submission? Anyway, the first step is to get comfortable falling. Once you are no longer concerned with taking the fall, you can start learning what you can do while going over.


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## Hanzou (Oct 2, 2018)

Frankly if you're over 35, I would avoid taking up serious Judo practice. The risk of injury dramatically increases the older you get, and the chance of injury will be compounded over time since you'll be making beginner mistakes as you're performing throws and breakfalls.

Obviously if doing Judo is one of your lifelong ambitions, by all means, but if your goal is to simply learn a grappling art for health or self defense, I would look elsewhere.


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## now disabled (Oct 2, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Frankly if you're over 35, I would avoid taking up serious Judo practice. The risk of injury dramatically increases the older you get, and the chance of injury will be compounded over time since you'll be making beginner mistakes as you're performing throws and breakfalls.
> 
> Obviously if doing Judo is one of your lifelong ambitions, by all means, but if your goal is to simply learn a grappling art for health or self defense, I would look elsewhere.




If he over 35 absolute rubbish total crap ....are you saying that anyone over 35 cannot take up Judo seriously ...................are you for real? jeez a person over 35 i just as capable of learning break falls as one under 35 ...you are amazing ...truly ....sorry but no and just bigger no any person can take up an Art and at any age and do it seriously


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## Hanzou (Oct 2, 2018)

now disabled said:


> If he over 35 absolute rubbish total crap ....are you saying that anyone over 35 cannot take up Judo seriously ...................are you for real? jeez a person over 35 i just as capable of learning break falls as one under 35 ...you are amazing ...truly ....sorry but no and just bigger no any person can take up an Art and at any age and do it seriously



Did you actually read what I wrote? I simply said that I don't recommend serious Judo practice once you're over 35. I even said later in the same post that if you really want to do it, go ahead, just recognize that you have a pretty high chance of getting injured due to the rigors of the sport.

Please actually read my post before you quote me and fly off the handle.


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## now disabled (Oct 2, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Did you actually read what I wrote? I simply said that I don't recommend serious Judo practice once you're over 35. I even said later in the same post that if you really want to do it, go ahead, just recognize that you have a pretty high chance of getting injured due to the rigors of the sport.
> 
> Please actually read my post before you quote me and fly off the handle.




Yes I did .....read it and what do you term as serious Judo practice ....as people can be serious at any age in MA .................You wouldn't recommend omg .... seriously are you really serious that people over 35 cannot practice judo or take it up seriously over 35 ...............?????????????????


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## TMA17 (Oct 2, 2018)

I'm "guessing" judo would have a much higher injury rate than BJJ, and that's the general view I get from reading about it.  If you're not careful, hip replacemetns, knee injuries etc. could be a problem down the road.  However, I think that can apply to any rigorous physical activity and can also depend on genetics and how well you take care of yourself. 

I've been enjoying BJJ, but it is a bit ground heavy for me.  I liked my 6am class this morning which had only 4 students LOL.  If you prefer standing takedowns and pins and not so much submissions then, I'm sure Judo is the way to go. If you like submissions and not much standing then BJJ is the way to go.

I'm 42 and in average shape I'd say.  My flexibility is awful and always has been going back to the days when I played soccer as a kid.


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## Hanzou (Oct 2, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I'm "guessing" judo would have a much higher injury rate than BJJ, and that's the general view I get from reading about it.  If you're not careful, hip replacemetns, knee injuries etc. could be a problem down the road.  However, I think that can apply to any rigorous physical activity and can also depend on genetics and how well you take care of yourself.
> 
> I've been enjoying BJJ, but it is a bit ground heavy for me.  I liked my 6am class this morning which had only 4 students LOL.  If you prefer standing takedowns and pins and not so much submissions then, I'm sure Judo is the way to go. If you like submissions and not much standing then BJJ is the way to go.
> 
> I'm 42 and in average shape I'd say.  My flexibility is awful and always has been going back to the days when I played soccer as a kid.



Yeah, my main point is that over 35 you need to be extremely careful if you're starting Judo practice. Obviously if you've been doing it since you were a kid, it's not a huge deal, but if its your first time doing it, you could be in for some serious injuries as you progress in the sport. That isn't a knock against the art, but people should really know what they're getting into as an older adult looking to begin Judo practice. One wrong fall can put you out of practice for a very long time.

Part of the reason Bjj has edged Judo out in the US is because it is less hard on the body (and the sheer size of practitioners and talent pool of wrestling in the states).


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## now disabled (Oct 2, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I'm "guessing" judo would have a much higher injury rate than BJJ, and that's the general view I get from reading about it.  If you're not careful, hip replacemetns, knee injuries etc. could be a problem down the road.  However, I think that can apply to any rigorous physical activity and can also depend on genetics and how well you take care of yourself.
> 
> I've been enjoying BJJ, but it is a bit ground heavy for me.  I liked my 6am class this morning which had only 4 students LOL.  If you prefer standing takedowns and pins and not so much submissions then, I'm sure Judo is the way to go. If you like submissions and not much standing then BJJ is the way to go.
> 
> I'm 42 and in average shape I'd say.  My flexibility is awful and always has been going back to the days when I played soccer as a kid.




Bro if you wanna try Judo then go for it on't let anyone put you off at all ...got try it


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## TMA17 (Oct 2, 2018)

Interesting:

Sport Science: Jiu-Jitsu Competitors Lowest Injury Rate Among Combat Athletes

Injury Rate per 1000 Athlete-Exposures:


MMA : 236-286
Taekwondo: 20.5-139.5
Judo : 25.3-130.6
Wrestling : 9.0-30.7
BJJ : 9.2

*There are many many people though that train in Judo that are in their 70's.  It can be done but certainly comes with a higher risk.


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## now disabled (Oct 2, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Interesting:
> 
> Sport Science: Jiu-Jitsu Competitors Lowest Injury Rate Among Combat Athletes
> 
> ...




Judo is not necessarily a sport btw it first a Martial Art. ang if you train diligently and to your highest ability then you are taking it seriously .......It depends on you the school and I doubt very much until you are looked on as able to take the hard falls and do the more difficult break falls I very much doubt any one would put you down hard ...ok accidents do happen but hey you could slip in bath tub fall and crack your skull...............just go try it if you are keen to do same


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## TMA17 (Oct 2, 2018)

Comments are interesting.

hhahaha


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## Hanzou (Oct 2, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Interesting:
> 
> Sport Science: Jiu-Jitsu Competitors Lowest Injury Rate Among Combat Athletes
> 
> ...



Yep that looks about right. Considering that you're 42, you made the right choice.


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## now disabled (Oct 2, 2018)

Eh no if you wanna try Judo then you try it ....don't go with what @Hanzou says just go try and see if you like and want etc


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## PiedmontChun (Oct 2, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, my main point is that over 35 you need to be extremely careful if you're starting Judo practice. Obviously if you've been doing it since you were a kid, it's not a huge deal, but if its your first time doing it, you could be in for some serious injuries as you progress in the sport. That isn't a knock against the art, but people should really know what they're getting into as an older adult looking to begin Judo practice. One wrong fall can put you out of practice for a very long time.
> 
> Part of the reason Bjj has edged Judo out in the US is because it is less hard on the body (and the sheer size of practitioners and talent pool of wrestling in the states).



I started Judo at 34 and am in the Ultraheavy weight division. Aside from some sprained toes, bruised ribs once, and a sore tailbone after a tournament - I had no injuries in a year's time. Nearly a year of BJJ has given me numerous small injuries (bruised ribs again, seriously jammed fingers, tweaked knee and shoulder). Its anecdotal and a small sample size for sure, but I think the notion of Judo being that dangerous is a bit inflated. Unless you are reckless or have really bad mats.

I do think that BJJ can be practiced in such a way that is very technical and softer; i.e. you can control the intensity. You can't say the same for Judo. You're either getting thrown, or not getting thrown. Not a lot of in between. I'll admit that.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 2, 2018)

The hazards of Judo training can vary considerably based on how it is trained.


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## Hanzou (Oct 2, 2018)

PiedmontChun said:


> I started Judo at 34 and am in the Ultraheavy weight division. Aside from some sprained toes, bruised ribs once, and a sore tailbone after a tournament - I had no injuries in a year's time. Nearly a year of BJJ has given me numerous small injuries (bruised ribs again, seriously jammed fingers, tweaked knee and shoulder). Its anecdotal and a small sample size for sure, but I think the notion of Judo being that dangerous is a bit inflated. Unless you are reckless or have really bad mats.
> 
> I do think that BJJ can be practiced in such a way that is very technical and softer; i.e. you can control the intensity. You can't say the same for Judo. You're either getting thrown, or not getting thrown. Not a lot of in between. I'll admit that.



Well to be fair Piedmont, you weren't 35 and older when you started. 

But yeah, I'm certainly not calling Judo dangerous, I'm simply saying that there's more of a chance to get hurt in Judo than other martial arts. That said, there's far worse things you can do to your body after 35 than joining a Judo club.


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## PiedmontChun (Oct 2, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Well to be fair Piedmont, you weren't 35 and older when you started.
> 
> But yeah, I'm certainly not calling Judo dangerous, I'm simply saying that there's more of a chance to get hurt in Judo than other martial arts. That said, there's far worse things you can do to your body after 35 than joining a Judo club.



Fair enough. I suppose if its a choice between recreational crocodile wrestling, or taking up Judo instead..... there is a clear winner If a choice between Judo and BJJ, BJJ has a marginal advantage, safety wise.


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## Hanzou (Oct 2, 2018)

PiedmontChun said:


> Fair enough. I suppose if its a choice between recreational crocodile wrestling, or taking up Judo instead..... there is a clear winner If a choice between Judo and BJJ, BJJ has a marginal advantage, safety wise.



Agreed, but @Tony Dismukes has a point about where you're training too. My first Judo club was full of sadists who liked to use white belts as practice dummies. I was in my early 20s when I practiced there, and I would come home pretty banged up.

My second experience with Judo (via my old Bjj gym) was much better.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 2, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Agreed, but @Tony Dismukes has a point about where you're training too. My first Judo club was full of sadists who liked to use white belts as practice dummies. I was in my early 20s when I practiced there, and I would come home pretty banged up.
> 
> My second experience with Judo (via my old Bjj gym) was much better.


Yeah, I’ve trained Judo with people who will make sure you are absolutely as safe as can be while doing a contact sport. I’ve trained with other people ... let’s just say that your ukemi better be on point.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 2, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Judo is not necessarily a sport btw it first a Martial Art.



Depending on who you talk to, they would reverse this. I'd consider judo first a sport, then a martial art. IMO, it's the sport version of classical jujutsu.


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## now disabled (Oct 2, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Depending on who you talk to, they would reverse this. I'd consider judo first a sport, then a martial art. IMO, it's the sport version of classical jujutsu.




Yeah I can see that, I just view it as a MA first then sport, but probably to most it will be the other way


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 2, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Yeah I can see that, I just view it as a MA first then sport, but probably to most it will be the other way


Like I said, depends who you talk to. When I was working with judoka, maybe one in five of them competed. They all could have competed if they wanted to, but they didn't have a desire to compete...they just enjoyed the art.


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## now disabled (Oct 2, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Like I said, depends who you talk to. When I was working with judoka, maybe one in five of them competed. They all could have competed if they wanted to, but they didn't have a desire to compete...they just enjoyed the art.




And still I bet took it just as seriously as the ones that did choose the sport path


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Frankly if you're over 35, I would avoid taking up serious Judo practice. The risk of injury dramatically increases the older you get, and the chance of injury will be compounded over time since you'll be making beginner mistakes as you're performing throws and breakfalls.
> 
> Obviously if doing Judo is one of your lifelong ambitions, by all means, but if your goal is to simply learn a grappling art for health or self defense, I would look elsewhere.


I don't remember my early Judo training being that hard on the body. Of course, I was in my early teens, so maybe that explains it. But the falls in NGA are pretty similar to the falls in Judo, and while it's hard to start learning to fall in your 40's, I've started people into the art as late as their 60's (and that's not exceptional people) who managed well enough. Maybe it differs more than I think, though.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2018)

now disabled said:


> If he over 35 absolute rubbish total crap ....are you saying that anyone over 35 cannot take up Judo seriously ...................are you for real? jeez a person over 35 i just as capable of learning break falls as one under 35 ...you are amazing ...truly ....sorry but no and just bigger no any person can take up an Art and at any age and do it seriously


ND, that's a bit over the top, man.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> My flexibility is awful and always has been going back to the days when I played soccer as a kid.


You, too, eh? I have never had any significant flexibility in my legs, not when I played soccer (including in high school), not when I was rock climbing, not in any of my MA training. I blame it on genetics. I don't know if that's true or not, but it's my chosen excuse.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, my main point is that over 35 you need to be extremely careful if you're starting Judo practice. Obviously if you've been doing it since you were a kid, it's not a huge deal, but if its your first time doing it, you could be in for some serious injuries as you progress in the sport. That isn't a knock against the art, but people should really know what they're getting into as an older adult looking to begin Judo practice. One wrong fall can put you out of practice for a very long time.
> 
> Part of the reason Bjj has edged Judo out in the US is because it is less hard on the body (and the sheer size of practitioners and talent pool of wrestling in the states).


That's probably more true if you compete than if you just train the art.


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## pdg (Oct 2, 2018)

I think the problem with any age thing is assigning a number...

Some people are 'older' at 30 than others are at 60...

I'm not denying that age plays a role (it'll generally be harder for someone at 40 than the same person at 20), but overall condition is more important than age.


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## TMA17 (Oct 2, 2018)

Very true pdg.


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## TMA17 (Oct 6, 2018)

I attended my first Judo class today where I participated.  (same place I observed a few weeks ago).  I loved it.  Started with conditioning, then we moved to footwork/grabs and breakfalls.  I then transitioned to a pully system they have with bungee cords attached to the wall.  Worked 25 reps each side.  I then took my belt and wrapped it around the sensei's belt and tried to do the same movement, only pull him off the wall.  After that I transitioned to throws on a mat with a higher level student.  At the end of class he has everyone climb a tall 20-30 ft rope.  The other students worked on ground today.  I was the only one doing throws.  Saturdays are their ground days.  It was a great workout and fun.  The instructor trained in Germany.

BJJ and Judo are both fantasatic and I have enjoyed both so far.  I enjoyed Judo more, possibly because it's more standup focused.  I got a little bored with these crazy intricate moves on the ground I was learning in BJJ, but it was still great overall.

Judo so far seems more intense and aggressive.  I like how I felt after leaving Judo class.


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