# "GM" Leung Ting - A big Fake?



## Dansel (Oct 21, 2008)

I found this article that is very interesting.
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63084


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## mook jong man (Oct 21, 2008)

Who cares mate ? 
Bringing that stuff up is just trying to start an argument , i thought we were all beyond that .


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## Dansel (Oct 21, 2008)

get a grip, this is a discussion forum.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 21, 2008)

Not really all that interesting considering all the infighting involved with all of the various Wing Chun/Wing Tsun organizations.  

Let them have their own feud.  I have no time for it.


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## skinters (Oct 21, 2008)

dansel 

as far as i can see from that article,the question seems to me if he was eligible to be head of the school,not if he was some sort of fake .  

he tried to bite of more that he could chew and got found out ...end of


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## theletch1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Not really all that interesting considering all the infighting involved with all of the various Wing Chun/Wing Tsun organizations.
> 
> * Let them have their own feud.  I have no time for it.*


Neither does the board.  If you were to read the rules, especially the last bullet point here, you'll see that MT isn't in the business of "fraud busting" or "rank validation".  Now, a good discussion on how much damage is done to the MA community as a result of bogus claims and in fighting as a result of stuff like your link... that might be a good discussion.


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## geezer (Oct 21, 2008)

Dansel said:


> get a grip, this is a discussion forum.


Well then, how 'bout some honest, _productive _discussion, rather than a reference to another forum where they pretty much think all Wing Chun/Tsun is bogus!

Besides, the inspiration for that whole thread was an article in a very political Hong Kong Kung-Fu magazine. Whatever you think of Leung Ting, he is a major figure in WC/WT/VT today, and it would be silly to dismiss him as a "fake". Now, if you disagree with particular claims he may have made, his commercialized marketing of the style, and so forth, that seems legitimate. But, why bother. You'll never resolve those issues here. 

Personally, I'm a whole lot more interested in what we can share and learn from each other, rather than in tearing each other down. This last weekend I assisted in giving an eskrima demonstration at a regional Filipino martial arts "gathering" organized by a friend. Practitioners of many branches of the FMAs were present including some renowned figures. Everyone was friendly, helpful and encouraging...even those from very different systems. Now if we WC/WT people could learn to work together like that, it would be really something!


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## Journeyman (Oct 21, 2008)

Leung Ting---->Milan Prosenica---->Crocop

Obviously the only way to settle this is for some wing chunner to put a beatdown on Crocop.:mst:


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## terryl965 (Oct 21, 2008)

How and why does this bother anybody, let him be and go on with your lifes.


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## qwksilver61 (Oct 21, 2008)

I don't care where you are from...he is no fake...the proof is in the pudding....tell you what....without telling anyone,please visit one of his schools in person..participate....then tell us what you think.Still don't know what this bashing bullsh#@t is all about.Check out anyone of his schools,no REALLY!


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## exile (Oct 21, 2008)

Folks, at this point, there's not much point talking to the OPer. Note that he's now a Banned User, and is in no position to respond to your well-taken points! :wink1:


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## skinters (Oct 22, 2008)

think this thread has been blown out of all propotion,if dansel think its fake,wich personaly is the wrong word to use,its no big deal we all adult enough to explain the situation without a panic.

there no bashing going on as far as im concerned ,if your from leung ting lineage,educate in a calm way,and move on . we supposed to be martial artists who can defend our corner and use a bit of rational.


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 22, 2008)

Cripes!!
I'm infamous for not having much time for Leung Ting, but I don't think this is a bash on him

Many wing chun instructors come under intense scrutiny and it is never a bad thing to get things out in the open. I have seen people bash Kevin Chan (my master) for using BJJ or being too aggressive etc. 

All I say to these people is go and see him in person and make your own judgement

I have seen Leung Ting so I know what he is like. I will never be a fan

Yet those who read one article and make a judgement based on that either have no common sense or really need to live life a bit more

The original post seemed to be an eager wing chunner who had seen an article and was interested as to what people thought of the article. He didn't ask what people thought of Leung Ting (unlike another post on here which seems to have never raised an eyebrow)


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## geezer (Oct 22, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> ...(unlike another post on here which seems to have never raised an eyebrow)


 
_Never_ raise your eyebrows when doing chi sau.


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 23, 2008)

What? That's my best move... Eyebrow attack!!


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## graychuan (Oct 23, 2008)

Dansel said:


> I found this article that is very interesting.
> [URL="http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63084"][URL]http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63084[/URL][/URL]


 
:lfao::lfao::lfao:




exile said:


> Folks, at this point, there's not much point talking to the OPer. Note that he's now a Banned User, and is in no position to respond to your well-taken points! :wink1:


 
:lfao::lfao::lfao:
:lfao::lfao::lfao:
:lfao::lfao::lfao:


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## BFL (Oct 23, 2008)

Brow Sau?


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## dungeonworks (Oct 23, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> What? That's my best move... Eyebrow attack!!



Bak Mei???


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 24, 2008)

http://www.gamerevolution.com/images/misc/Image/raised_eyebrow.jpg


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## profesormental (Oct 24, 2008)

Interestingly enough, he's been involved in the Board of Directors of the Ving Tsun Athletic Association (VTAA) in Hong Kong, and has been the president for a few terms...

I guess they forgave him a long time ago.

His Wing Chun is very good. His students have very good Wing Chun. 'Nuff said.


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 27, 2008)

Like I said, you never know how good someone is until you see or train with them in person

Video clips can help, but do not always give an accurate portrayal of how fast, powerful something is, especially in this day and age of video editing and fakery

When I trained with LT, I didn't like him and that's the opinion I formed. His wing chun was 'okay' but his theories were odd. 

The students/instructors who have come to me from WT were a little bit disillusioned with some of their ideas. Yet I am sure there are guys out there (especially people like Bozteppi etc) who are good. 

It is difficult judging WT as one package purely for the reason that everyone is an individual. Students of WT will have experience in other arts. They might have done 10 years of Kamon before going to WT for example!

Like Kamon, there are good students and bad students. Some students/instructors have had experience from other organisations
Therefore, they haven't just been taught solely by Master Chan (although that is their main influence). It would be unfair to judge Sifu Kevin Chan and his students in the same package


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## geezer (Oct 27, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> When I trained with LT, I didn't like him and that's the opinion I formed. His wing chun was 'okay' but his theories were odd.
> 
> Yet I am sure there are guys out there (especially people like Bozteppi etc) who are good...It is difficult judging WT as one package purely for the reason that everyone is an individual.


 
Yep. We are all individuals in WT and WC. I prefer to be judged for who I am rather than who I learned from...although I give my teachers a great deal of credit. And, Kamon Guy, I appreciate it that you actually trained under Leung Ting before forming a conclusive opinion. 

By the way, I don't think its off-topic to ask _which_ of GM Leung's theories struck you as particularly _odd _and why. As far as I know, he differentiates himself from other Yip Man lineage practioners primarily in two areas: 1. stance/steps with his insistence on keeping the weight entirely on the rear leg, and 2. his emphasis on yielding, "springy" forward energy in techniques. Other than that, I always felt that WT stands apart mainly in its standardized training drills and teaching methods, more than in what is taught. At any rate, I am very interested in your opinion.


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 28, 2008)

geezer said:


> By the way, I don't think its off-topic to ask _which_ of GM Leung's theories struck you as particularly _odd _and why. As far as I know, he differentiates himself from other Yip Man lineage practioners primarily in two areas: 1. stance/steps with his insistence on keeping the weight entirely on the rear leg, and 2. his emphasis on yielding, "springy" forward energy in techniques. Other than that, I always felt that WT stands apart mainly in its standardized training drills and teaching methods, more than in what is taught. At any rate, I am very interested in your opinion.


To be honest, I don't really want to get into another debate about WT's teachings....

People will get a rough idea what I am talking about if you watch him in Kick As* Moves with Chris Crudelli. Very odd. But like I say, don't form your whole opinion based solely on that - go see him in person

Good luck


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## yak sao (Oct 28, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> To be honest, I don't really want to get into another debate about WT's teachings....
> 
> People will get a rough idea what I am talking about if you watch him in Kick As* Moves with Chris Crudelli. Very odd. But like I say, don't form your whole opinion based solely on that - go see him in person
> 
> Good luck


 

OK, I watched it......??? he said the tricep extends the arm and the bicep bends the arm.......what's the odd part?


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 29, 2008)

yak sao said:


> OK, I watched it......??? he said the tricep extends the arm and the bicep bends the arm.......what's the odd part?


The bit with the lightbulb and the bit where he is introducing Sammo Hung to Crudelli. Suddenly the atmosphere switches because Crudelli asks very innocently whether Hung would show him something


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## geezer (Oct 29, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> The bit with the lightbulb and the bit where he is introducing Sammo Hung to Crudelli. Suddenly the atmosphere switches because Crudelli asks very innocently whether Hung would show him something


 
OK, that tears it. I don't care if I only have dial-up and it takes me forever to download anything. Where can I view this?

Besides, nobody can outdo my own personal hero, "Uncle Fester" Adams when it coms to lightbulb tricks. Now that's some Chi Kung!


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## yak sao (Oct 29, 2008)

geezer said:


> OK, that tears it. I don't care if I only have dial-up and it takes me forever to download anything. Where can I view this?
> 
> 
> I hear you geezer, we just recently got broadband. Before, when we had dial up and I would try to download anything, I swear I was ready to hang myself it was so freakin' slow.
> ...


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## mook jong man (Oct 29, 2008)

yak sao said:


> geezer said:
> 
> 
> > OK, that tears it. I don't care if I only have dial-up and it takes me forever to download anything. Where can I view this?
> ...


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## dungeonworks (Oct 30, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> The bit with the lightbulb and the bit where he is introducing Sammo Hung to Crudelli. Suddenly the atmosphere switches because Crudelli asks very innocently whether Hung would show him something




I saw it on YouTube, but it was only 4:50 long.  Maybe I missed this wasn't in the one I seen.  Any chance you could PM me about what happened in the video?


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 31, 2008)

Man it was so long ago that I saw it... 

Leung Ting was showing how his students could chain punch someone into submission (groan) 

He then starts talking about lightbulbs and compares knocking someone out to turning off a light
You can see Crudelli is confused and he is a pretty smart guy

The thing finishes with Sammo Hung coming down in a very odd pink coat. 
Leung Ting looks intimidated and Crudelli asks if Sammo can do something 
They both look at him very suspiciously and as though he has insulted them!! They dismiss his request - even though it was an honest question!!

You just have to see the clip for yourself

Like I said, its not a big thing, but gives you a rough idea of exactly what Leung Ting is like


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## geezer (Oct 31, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Man it was so long ago that I saw it...
> 
> Leung Ting was showing how his students could chain punch someone into submission (groan)
> 
> ...


 
Yes, that surreal description sounds all too familiar. Now you know why when I look back on my time as a disciple of GM Leung, whatever else you might say, it was always ...interesting.


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## KamonGuy2 (Nov 3, 2008)

Yeah but yopu might as well go to a comedy club or visit the zoo. Its cheaper and you'd learn more... lol


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## El_Nastro (Nov 11, 2008)

I'm no fan of Leung Ting. Anyone who would _voluntarily choose_ to call themselves the "Master of Almightiness" is an egomaniacal turd. I went to a Ting school for a while, and I know some guys that were part of his organization for years before switching to Ip Ching, not because Ting's _Wing Chun_ was fake or ineffective, but because he was just a sleezy dude. (note: while Ting's Wing Chun isn't horrible, one of the guys that left Ting said, after a short time under Ip Ching, "My Wing Chun is soooo much better now"!)

William Cheung is even worse, though only _slightly_ so. Ting may have his own issues, but at least the Wing Chun he teaches ultimately comes from Yip Man even if he really is a 2nd or 3rd generation student. Cheung just made up a bunch of stuff and tried to pass of this b.s. about how Yip taught everyone but him _wrong on purpose_. 

It's funny that the two most commercially successful Wing Chun guys are also the two biggest crooks. Hmmm...that's probably exactly WHY they are such successful businessmen.

I also love how they have that little feud. Shouldn't they be patting each other on the back, and high-fiving each other over their shared love of con-artistry?


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## KamonGuy2 (Nov 11, 2008)

That is why i love my style. There is no BS. Kevin Chan knows his level, knows that there are always people better than him (I haven't seen them yet!) and merely asks that you call hm Sifu, that's it

There is no expectation to bow before him and a beginner off the street can walk up to him and chat to him

I know federations where you cannot even approach the master
Its almost like a cult!!

Kevin Chan earns respect just by being him as with many Sifu's out there. 

I try and be very approachable in my classes. Sure we have rules (mainly for health and safety) and there is ettiquette - paying respects to your training partner before you train etc. 
Yet I would be horrified if I learnt that one of my students feared me to the point he couldn't talk to me!!


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## profesormental (Nov 11, 2008)

Greetings.

I think a good teacher should make you feel good around them. My teachers have always been funny guys that promote trust and comfortable atmosphere...

Yet I know on the mat they're drill sargents!

The important thing is to know that they are there to teach and help you. And have fun while doing it! 

I explicitly know that they have the best intentions at heart. That is the example I follow.

Juan M. Mercado


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## BFL (Nov 11, 2008)

I shall apparently remain poor from a monetary point of view as I would rather teach students with integrity and honor.  Not saying I'm any better than anyone else, but I compare myself to how "some" previously mentioned others teach and profit from it and I'll choose to remain not as wealthy but richer in my soul.  Of course I'm not above life's needs or the normal likeing of money.  If I could maintain my honor, integrity and dignity and make a crap load of money, I'm more than happy to do it.  I can at least look myself in the mirror and know I didn't lie, con anyone or hurt anyone that day.  Karma is a ***** and in the end it get's us one way or another.  What goes around comes around and when it does, loookout.  Sadly the con jobs out there taint Wing Chun deeply but maybe we can make up for it by teaching well and leading with good examples to our students.


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## KamonGuy2 (Nov 12, 2008)

I agree. Whilst I do make money out of the wing chun I teach, it wouldn't be enough to live on or go full time with. 

I make sure students get value for money when I teach them. If I thought for one second that they weren't learning anything or 

Also, you need to make money in order to keep the school running and promote the class etc. 

Yet there are federations (Choi Kwang Do, Fighting Fit, etc) that are deemed McDojos due to the nature of their teaching and reluctance to engage any other style

I trained with CKD for two years and was asked to grade every month (!!) 
I made excuses about not being able to attend the gradings and they did get funny with me. Gradings were £30, fees were £55 (I think they have gone up to £60). 

In Kamon, it is £48 per month meaning you can train 7 times a week, and gradings are very far apart 
I like a semi casual style that is more interested in progressing you than limiting you


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## qwksilver61 (Nov 15, 2008)

He still produces quality Instructors,heck just visit one of his schools


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## BFL (Nov 15, 2008)

skill does not equal honesty or integrity and I believe it was honesty and integrity in question, not skill.  The two are not related or interchangeable.  Mike Tyson was a heck of a fighter with a killer punch, but basically not a very decent person.  There's a Weng Shun Sifu in the Netherlands who might have been highly skilled but is in Dutch custody for raping multiple female students.  Skill has nothing to do with character.


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## geezer (Nov 16, 2008)

BFL said:


> skill does not equal honesty or integrity and I believe it was honesty and integrity in question, not skill... Skill has nothing to do with character.



I agree. Unfortunately, it is hard to separate our judgement of the two. When we find a person's character distasteful, it is all too easy to devalue all that they do. In the case of the complex personality of Leung Ting, I believe that his character and business practices have led people to overlook or even deny that he is _extremely_ skilful. Nevertheless, he and some of his more gifted followers have made significant contributions to the development of Wing Chun. Unfortunately, he has held back from sharing publicly a great deal of what he knows.

IMHO egotism, arrogance and greed are the bane of the Martial Arts and Wing Chun has suffered as much as any style. If people could just put all that garbage aside and share, we would all benefit. Imagine...


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## KamonGuy2 (Nov 17, 2008)

qwksilver61 said:


> He still produces quality Instructors,heck just visit one of his schools


 
I have and wasn't impressed. But like I said, one school should not represent his federation as a whole, which is why my complaint is really with the man himself

I have seen a few clips on youtube of WT guys who looked okay, but that is not my general experience in the UK

Sorry to be so up front, but you will always get a direct and honest response from me

In contrast, I have never met a bad instructor from Alan Orr's school or my own glorious Kamon (if there was a bad instructor, we would help him and make sure he was good!)

I think the trouble is, the bigger an organisation gets, the more it gets watered down if the top guys don't make regular visits to the classes

Indeed, even with Kamon, we know our limits. We have several senior students who Kevin Chan could promote to be an instructor (they are that level), but likes to make sure that instructors have the whole package (ie they are approachable, experienced, skilled fighters and knowledgable)

Too many federations (such as WT) promote their instructors as soon as they reach a certain grade


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## geezer (Nov 17, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Too many federations (such as WT) promote their instructors as soon as they reach a certain grade


 
Sure. Great idea. Promote 'em, push 'em into teaching, then hold back instruction and higher rank unless they recruit like crazy and open another branch school for you. And of course you collect all the new membership and testing fees, sell a zillion of your uniforms and products... a great way to make a fortune.

The real irony here is that the head sifu in question really cares about the quality of what he teaches. All of his early students can attest to that. Sadly, it's just that he cares about money more.


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## qwksilver61 (Nov 17, 2008)

And I would be inclined to agree with the both of you gentlemen! I stand corrected!


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## KamonGuy2 (Nov 18, 2008)

geezer said:


> Sure. Great idea. Promote 'em, push 'em into teaching, then hold back instruction and higher rank unless they recruit like crazy and open another branch school for you. And of course you collect all the new membership and testing fees, sell a zillion of your uniforms and products... a great way to make a fortune.
> 
> The real irony here is that the head sifu in question really cares about the quality of what he teaches. All of his early students can attest to that. Sadly, it's just that he cares about money more.


 
That tends to be the way with big organisations. I once thought Kevin Chan was like that (he used to increase fees etc), but found that he is a very generous person and really wants to improve his students 

Of course he likes making money, as do most people but I think the difference between Kevin Chan and Leung Ting is that he won't promote students to instructors just to make money

I would clarify (I've mentioned it before) that I have seen WT stuff that has impressed me and one or two of his instructors that I used to teach and swap ideas with really came up with some good stuff. But a lot of the fundamental stuff they were taught was just bad

My advice to WT guys is get to a Kamon class and see the difference for yourselves. If you do and don't like it, then at least you have seen it for yourselves and make that decision
But don't be so closed in that you get brainwashed by one style
It is one thing to enjoy a style and like the training and another thing to claim that is the best fighting system out there


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