# Style



## Shin71 (Sep 3, 2010)

How do you tell if someone has style when it comes to the martial arts, specifically ninjutsu (or ninny-jutsu as my Genbukan friend calls it)?

First I think if you break away from one of the X-kans for whatever reason you dont call your "new" art ninjutsu or even "formally known as."

If you got legit creds you probably claim it without advertising it, usually only if asked about it.

Most important of all you dont make up a bunch of stuff or organize all your training into something that works for you (or doesn't) and then call it ninjutsu, post 50 things in the ninjutsu boards and whine when you get called out on it.  If you got skills then that will show itself, if they are something you want to pass on then that is something else and takes different skill sets.

Just because someone is in the Infantry/Airborn/Air Assault/Rangers/SF or other is a level 4 Combatives instructor, knows how to use camo, used lots of weapons, can patrol and use tactics doesn't mean they can suddenly say "Hey, that is kind of historical ninja like, I think I will open the Army-Ninjutsu school of Combatives today" (unless I can get rich quick off of it.... anyway)

To say otherwise is foolish.  Be proud of your self and if you have a system that works and you can translate those skills into something that others can learn and use in the way you are telling them they are meant then call it what it is; dont use ryu, do, po, jutsu unless you are really teaching a core system with some variation and then note that.....

How does everyone else feel about this?  I am asking because I stumbled across something by some Zapata guy and I have never seen that many orange dots in a rep?


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## Chris Parker (Sep 4, 2010)

Er, what? Didn't really follow much of that, to be honest....


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## Omar B (Sep 4, 2010)

LOL Chris.  I read that post last night before I went to bed and thought I was just tired.  After sleep, coffee, workout and shower it still makes no sense.  

I swear, the internet is a written medium for the most part yet still people can't put together coherent, grammatically correct sentences.


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## Cryozombie (Sep 4, 2010)

Omar B said:


> I swear, the internet is a written medium for the most part yet still people can't put together coherent, grammatically correct sentences.



What you say?  Main screen turn on!


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## Omar B (Sep 4, 2010)

Cryozombie said:


> What you say?  Main screen turn on!



Wait?  What am you sazy?


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## Shin71 (Sep 14, 2010)

Shin71 said:


> How do you tell if someone has style when it comes to the martial arts, specifically ninjutsu (or ninny-jutsu as my Genbukan friend calls it)?
> 
> First I think if you break away from one of the X-kans for whatever reason you dont call your "new" art ninjutsu or even "formally known as."
> 
> ...


 
Let me clarify here, I was on a flight line, it was around 0300, I was typing using a Blackberry so I was tired and rushed, I had just read some stuff by this Zapata guy and it didn't help that I was polling other SF guys about martial arts in general - most of whom think that anything not MMA is useless.

I was trying to comment on how many people think that by calling their system a form of Ninjutsu it suddenly makes it ...better or "legitimate?"  And they catch hell for it regardless of their training background - sometimes with little or no taijutsu/ninjutsu at all.  

I was trying to compare that to the people out there who were with a legitimate x-kan for years (or even decades) that have, for whatever reason, decided to go in a new direction and still teach but do not title their teachings "ninjutsu" in order to make it stand out.


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## Omar B (Sep 14, 2010)

Shin71 said:


> Let me clarify here, I was on a flight line, *it was around 0300, I was typing using a Blackberry* so I was tired and rushed, I had just read some stuff by this Zapata guy and it didn't help that I was polling other SF guys about martial arts in general - most of whom think that anything not MMA is useless.
> 
> *I was trying to comment on how many people think that by calling their system a form of Ninjutsu it suddenly makes it ...better or "legitimate?"  And they catch hell for it regardless of their training background - sometimes with little or no taijutsu/ninjutsu at all*.
> 
> I was trying to compare that to the people out there who were with a legitimate x-kan for years (or even decades) that have, for whatever reason, decided to go in a new direction and still teach but do not title their teachings "ninjutsu" in order to make it stand out.



Don't post threads from a Blackberry.  For all our sakes and the sake of making a clear point use a computer, reread, edit then post.

People should be called out for pulling a bait and switch, no matter what.  If I opened a ballet school and my only knowledge of the subject was what I've gleaned from my sister over the years then I would be a fraud with no credentials claiming to teach ballet.  Same with any martial art, if you can not show lineage to one of the true systems then it's a bait and switch.

It's a compeltely different situation from someone who learns a whole system then breaks away.  Like the Alvin Aily school of dance where the peopel here spent many years learning the classical forms and even perform traditional pieces but also perform modern dance.  It's a ligitamate school, they have all the credentials, they can perform all the stuff as good and even better than other ballet schools, but it's not because their focus is on American forms.

There is a difference between knowing then changing something that have worked with for years to suit your own value judgments as opposed to making something up off the top of your head.


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## Steve (Sep 14, 2010)

My impression is that claiming ninjutsu is actually detrimental to your reputation, and what quality schools that do exist are continuously fighting the poor impression that subpar schools have given the general martial arts community.  I'm not involved in ninjutsu directly, but through these boards and others, that's been the gist of what I've seen.  

If I were inventing my style and looking for instant "cred", I'd claim MMA or some kind of RBSD over any false association with ninjutsu.


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## Indagator (Sep 14, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Wait? What am you sazy?


 
Lol that reminds me of the time I ended up watching a pirated version of Ip Man 2, where the subtitles gave the direct literal English translation of the Chinese speech.
Very hard, in places, to decipher what was being said lol.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 15, 2010)

Okay, this is still more than a little convaluted to my mind, but I'll try to go through as much of it as I can to see if we can get to something close to what you are trying to get at. Let's see how we go, then, shall we?



Shin71 said:


> How do you tell if someone has style when it comes to the martial arts, specifically ninjutsu (or ninny-jutsu as my Genbukan friend calls it)?
> 
> Below is a clarifying PM you sent me, which I feel could help others reading this to understand what you are trying to get at:
> 
> ...


 


Shin71 said:


> Let me clarify here, I was on a flight line, it was around 0300, I was typing using a Blackberry so I was tired and rushed, I had just read some stuff by this Zapata guy and it didn't help that I was polling other SF guys about martial arts in general - most of whom think that anything not MMA is useless.
> 
> Okay, as Omar said, try to avoid doing such things if you want to be understood. As for MMA, well, it's certainly got it's place, but is very removed from the reasons that arts such as Ninjutsu exist. Neither is better, by the way, just existing for different reasons, which will suit one person and their needs more or less than the other.
> 
> ...


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## BADASSBUDO (Sep 15, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Now that depends. My organisation, for instance, broke away from the Bujinkan about 10 years ago, *and we use the Ninjutsu name. The main reason is that we focus pretty much entirely on the Ninjutsu-related systems (Koto Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Togakure Ryu, with Kukishinden Ryu and the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki rounding out the "classical" material*), leaving off the more pure "samurai" ones (Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu). So it could be argued that the resultant *curriculum is more "Ninjutsu" than the Bujinkan is*, as we don't deal with the "samurai" systems, whereas they do, making their art of Budo Taijutsu both Ninjutsu and Samurai Bugei. The same goes for the Genbukan focusing on the Ninjutsu (or Ninpo) related sysyems, and teaching the "samurai" ones in the KJJR (Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei).


 
Interesting,
Could you list the "ninjutsu" techniques that you teach/study, that make your school more ninjutsu based that taijutsu/bujutsu based?


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## Omar B (Sep 15, 2010)

You do realize that would be a list of hundreds of separate techniques?  Maybe you meant to ask him to explain the various disciplines rather than enumerate each individual unit?


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## BADASSBUDO (Sep 16, 2010)

Omar B said:


> You do realize that would be a list of hundreds of separate techniques? Maybe you meant to ask him to explain the various disciplines rather than enumerate each individual unit?


 
Sure I can appreciate that. It's not really what I was asking.

Chris is saying that his schools teach more ninjutsu elements than the bujinkan. I am truly interested in this because I have many tiomes thought that I do not see ANY ninjutsu truly taught in any of the Xkans or splinter groups apart from a spattering here and there...

Since Wayne Roy's original ninjutsu training comes from Hatsumi, and Hatsumi classes his ninjutsu to be made up of about 18 skillsets, perhaps Chris could break down his training time with % beside each skillset (in particular those highlighted bold which I would consider more Ninjutsu based than others.

Taijutsu (striking & grappling) 
Kenjutsu (sword ) 
B&#333;jutsu (hanbo and staff) 
S&#333;jutsu (spear techniques) 
Kayakujutsu (pyrotechnics) 
*Hens&#333;jutsu (disguise and impersonation) 
Shinobi-iri (stealth and entering methods) 
Shurikenjutsu (shurikan and shinken) 
*Bajutsu (horsemanship) 
*Sui-ren (water training)* 
*B&#333;ryaku (tactics)*
Naginatajutsu (naginata) 
Kusarigamajutsu (kusarigama) 
*Ch&#333;h&#333; (espionage) 
Intonjutsu (escaping and concealment)* 
Tenmon (meteorology) 
Chi-mon (geography)
Seishinteki ky&#333;y&#333; (spiritual pursuit) 

I would then be interested to learn how much time Wayne Roy spent in the 2 years total training he had in Japan that he spent learning those skillsets in Japan.

Thanks in advance, Chris.
It would be great getting to have that kind of understand into your system.
One of the guys at our dojo was saying he may even pop into your dojo on the way to training to say hello.


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 16, 2010)

BADASSBUDO said:


> Interesting,
> Could you list the "ninjutsu" techniques that you teach/study, that make your school more ninjutsu based that taijutsu/bujutsu based?



Rather than list the individual techniques, an explanation is perhaps in order.
The Bujinkan (for example) consists of the nine schools. Some of which are ninjutsu, and some of which are not. Forget about techniques for the moment, since techniques are an expression of the concepts that underpin the art. Even though most systems have e.g. wristlocks, they are done for different reasons of with different intention.

Anyway, what Chris is saying is that of the nine schools, they focus only on the ninjutsu (and ninjutsu related) ones, and not on the 'samurai' ones. As a result, they focus more on the ninjutsu aspect than the Bujinkan, which has renamed their system from Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.


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## BADASSBUDO (Sep 16, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Anyway, what Chris is saying is that of the nine schools, they focus only on the ninjutsu (and ninjutsu related) ones, and not on the 'samurai' ones. As a result, they focus more on the ninjutsu aspect than the Bujinkan, which has renamed their system from Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.


 
Well, not really. if school a teaches ichimonji no kamae from Togakure ryu and school b teaches it from Gyakko Ryu that IMO does not make it more ninjutsu based than the other due to a hand position.

To me, it is the elements of ninjutsu such as stealth, evasion, tactics, esacape, etc that which really is what seperated "ninja" from a samurai. 

Even Tenshin Sh&#333;den Katori Shint&#333;-ry&#363;, a Koryu system with a recognized and verified ninjutsu sylabus do not class the ninjutsu element as any more than intelligence gathering and analysis tactics.

So if you are claiming to be more ninjutsu based than the school you learnt it from in the first place, just saying you "shift focus" is not enough. I'd like to see what exactly at its core you have shifted focus to.

Looking at Chris's website:



> *Warm-up Basics*
> To prepare the body for training, practitioners exercise a series of basic techniques using the weapon of the month.
> *Stretching*
> Practitioners are then guided through a full-body stretching routine.
> ...


 
looks like a bujinkan class to me. 
Hence my interest in more detail.

Not trying to start trouble.
Just wanted some detailed clarification if it's not too much trouble.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 16, 2010)

Well, this is fun.

BADASSBUDO, from your earlier posting you are a former member of our schools, so you have some idea of what we train in (or did 10 years ago). To clarify, Bruno is on the money there, I wasn't meaning that we have "more" Ninjutsu than the Bujinkan, just that the Bujinkan then has other non-Ninjutsu systems as well (might think of it as Ninjutsu Plus....), whereas we limited ourselves to the Ninjutsu-related systems as detailed above. And as Togakure Ryu is one of the ones we teach, and your list from Hatsumi Sensei is a list of the component teachings of Togakure Ryu, well, that would be a clue as to whether or not we teach them (both in traditional forms and modern, so you know). But just for fun, a student asked me recently this exact question on another forum via PM, here is my answer to that student:

So anyway, I was looking at the 18 skills of ninjutsu...

Seishinteki ky&#333;y&#333; (spiritual refinement)

Seishin Teki Kyoyo is more an end result, rather than something specificly worked on. Part of the idea is that as you train the art you gain greater control over yourself (your emotions etc), as well as becoming more compassionate towards your fellow human beings as you become more and more aware of your own mortality (by being exposed to techniques that symbolically "kill" you, such as weaponry kata). We then also have various devices, such as the meditations that start each class (guided in specific ways for specific results, if you hadn't realised), as well as methods of personal development that you will be exposed to as you progress (certain other meditative methods, Therapy Trees, Timeline Therapy, and more).

Taijutsu (unarmed combat)

This is really the cornerstone of all Ninjutsu schools these days, rather than the weaponry that would have been more likely in ages past. As I'm sure your aware, that is a big part of every class, for us and all others.

Kenjutsu (sword techniques)

Again, very commonly covered. Our approach (due to my personal interest and study of the sword, as well as other reasons) lends us to be more "technical" than the Bujinkan, for instance. We cover this weapon 4 times a year (at least), and it is the "attacking" weapon for many other months.

So you know, though, this is not Kenjutsu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXOVVn6prrI It is frankly embarrassing. So we won't be doing things like this.

B&#333;jutsu (stick and staff techniques)

Bojutsu is the fundamental weapon of the Kukishin traditions, and is taught in various forms, including Hanbo (covered every 3 months, or four times a year), Jo (which we are going through now), and Bo (there was a workshop a few months ago, and we will be covering it again early next year in Preston, however the room in the City is a little prohibitive, which is really the only reason we don't cover it as much these days.

S&#333;jutsu (spear techniques)

It's actually rare to find someone who knows what they are doing in Sojutsu, and rarer to have the essential equipment to do it properly. Fortunately, I have spent a number of years researching this weapon, have the complete scroll for Kukishinden Ryu Sojutsu, and a range of training spears. It's coming up at Preston when we do Kukishinden Ryu, which will be early 2012. There may be a workshop or two leading up to that, but more likely that will be for the next topic.

We have in the past done workshops on Kama Yari, the sickle spear from Kumogakure Ryu, and that may make another appearance.

Naginatajutsu (naginata techniques)

This was the original primary weapon for Kukishin Ryu, but the current form only has a small section. It also includes Bisento (like a Naginata on steroids...), and will most likely make an appearance as a workshop at some point in the next year to year and a half or so.

Kusarigamajutsu (kusarigama techniques)

This and Kyoketsu Shoge are due to be taught (again at Preston, as we have the room there) when we go through Togakure Ryu in the second half of next year. I am currently looking at getting training equipment for us to go through this topic (it's a lot of fun, by the way). We have done these in the past as well.

Shurikenjutsu (throwing weapons techniques)

A big part of Togakure Ryu, and will be covered in more detail then. The last time we went through them was about a year ago.

Kayakujutsu (pyrotechnics)

The use of incendiary devices is not an overtly practical thing these days, as setting the room we are renting on fire isn't really encouraged.... that said, most of it is orally taught, and includes such things as how to best employ fire against old-style Japanese castles, how to light fires in the rain, and so forth, and isn't really taught anywhere (Hatsumi was asked about it once, and said "Why do you need to know that? Can't you get a lighter or some matches?"). If you really want, I can take you through some of the details as I have come across them.

Hens&#333;jutsu (disguise and impersonation)

Again, this is taught through stories, and I've certainly gone through a number of those over the years. Add to that that amongst my background is training as an actor, and if you want more detail, I can certainly take you through it. For your information, though, there were traditionally seven groupings for disguise, based on the Japanese social structure at the time.

Shinobi-iri (stealth and entering methods)

Rarely taught in the Bujinkan, the Jinenkan seems to deal with it the most these days. We will be covering it as part of the traditional scroll teachings of Togakure Ryu, so you know.

Bajutsu (horsemanship)

Horseriding is another topic that we have gone out and done as a workshop before, realistically the modern version of it would be simply leraning to drive a car.... with that said, there are things we teach such Protective Driving skills, which come from Bodyguarding principles, and focus on not being a vicitm of road rage or carjacking.

Sui-ren (water training)

We have, in the past, gone through these skills, and they may be touched on again as part of the Togakure Ryu skills we go through. Shinden Fudo Ryu Jutaijutsu also teaches a range of principles for fighting in water as well (whereas the Togakure Ryu ones are more about silent swimming, silent entry and exit into water, and so on).

B&#333;ryaku (tactics)

Tactics make up the basis of each and every technique, as they are realistically just symbolic representations of tactics themselves. You will probably hear me use these terms (strategies and tactics) fairly often....

Ch&#333;h&#333; (espionage)

This ties into the Inton and Hensojutsu sections, and again is taught through oral stories and teachings. Not really a practical aspect, so almost never taught, but I enjoy the old stories, which is where it really comes from.

Intonjutsu (escaping and concealment)

Again, a part of Togakure Ryu's teachings, and will be dealt with then.

Tenmon (meteorology)

Well, I've actually put some of those teachings on another forum before.... not really taught, as there are modern scientific weather bureaus, daily and nightly weather reports, and so on, but if you want to know, I can take you through some aspects.

Chi-mon (geography)

Same as Tenmon, really. The equivalent would be knowing how to read a Melways, or how to find your way if you didn't have one. For this reason, I don't have a GPS, I don't like relying on technology, and prefer to keep my sense of direction sharp. But that's my approach.


Now, as to why we class it as Ninjutsu, well, to me at least, Ninjutsu is a historically linked system to the appropriate groups in Japan, and the systems we teach were chosen as they demonstrate that link (Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu both passed through Momochi Sandayu, without getting to the Hattori clans, that's about as "ninja history" as you can get, Togakure Ryu, well, that's always been acknowledged as a Ninjutsu system, and the origins of the Kukishinden Ryu involve the actions of a Kishu Ninja [either a member of the Kishu Ryu, or a Ninja from Kishu Han] according to Hatsumi Sensei, as well as Ishitani Sensei being said to have an ancestor in the Kami Hattori clan of Hanzo Hattori. To be frank, that is the most tenuous of the links, but it's still there, and provides most of the weaponry training). We also include the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki (Takamatsu version), which is said to be Takamatsu's take on what he felt was most important in Ninpo. We don't include the Shinden Fudo Ryu or the Takagi Yoshin Ryu, as these we class as "samurai" systems, and therefore not in keeping with our approach. 

Obviously all of these systems are included in the Bujinkan's make-up, my point was not that we had "more", just that we focused only on these aspects.

Hope that helped. Oh, and if yourself, or your dojo-mate wanted to drop in to say hi, obviously they would be most welcome. We're focusing on Gyokko Ryu at the moment, so you know. Just make sure to introduce yourselves, be good to meet some of you (and see if I remember you.... or vice versa!).


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## Indagator (Sep 16, 2010)

To be fair, my training is encompassed within the Bujinkan, and we focus heavily on stealth - including training in public places (at night of course) without being observed or detected.
So some Bujinkan practitioners do incorporate the shinobi-iri that you refer to.
Also, as I was taught, stealth involves detection of other's intent towards you, interpreting their own stealth and defending against it.


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## Yaiba (Sep 16, 2010)

When I was part of Wayne Roy's group, we did mostly 
a) some stretching, 

b) followed by some rolling (which sometimes included throwing a soft padded training tanto or hanbo in front of us then rolling to pick it up).

c) single man kata which we were all given a print-out (called scrolls) of the kata we should know by a certain rank...like by 9th kyu just taking a 45 degree and blocking etc

d)working the kata with a partner but wearing a mouth guard, mitts and groin guard, even though we were barely touching eachother

e)then there would be a sit-down time with a whiteboard were we discussed "concepts" There was a time when Wayne Roy came down for a seminar and he discussed the associations of being "lucky in love" or "lucky in business" with "lucky in combat"

f)then Richard cootes would either show some hojo but using an obi, or we would massage eachother, or we would work sakki by one person standing there while the other guy stood behind us and did a very slow punch to the back. The person with the back to the other would have to try and "feel the intent" and turn around.

In the year that I was there, I don't recall working anything else.



			
				Chris Parker said:
			
		

> To clarify, Bruno is on the money there, I wasn't meaning that we have "more" Ninjutsu than the Bujinkan, just that the Bujinkan then has other non-Ninjutsu systems as well (might think of it as Ninjutsu Plus....), whereas we limited ourselves to the Ninjutsu-related systems as detailed above.


 
Earlier you said:



			
				Chris Parker said:
			
		

> My organisation, for instance, broke away from the Bujinkan about 10 years ago, and we use the Ninjutsu name. The main reason is that we focus pretty much entirely on the Ninjutsu-related systems.../...leaving off the more pure "samurai" ones .../...So it could be argued that the resultant curriculum is more "Ninjutsu" than the Bujinkan is.


 
To me that doesn't make sense.

Your school teaches, as you claim, the Tenchinjin and focus on Koto Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Togakure Ryu, with Kukishinden Ryu (its a shame you dropped SDFR... works so well with Koto, but anyway)

But firstly, the Tenchinjin is the core for the bujinkan, and most schools use this as the standard for what a student should know by shodan. If you are also using the tenchinjin, then there is really very little difference between the two.



			
				Chris Parker said:
			
		

> And as Togakure Ryu is one of the ones we teach, and your list from Hatsumi Sensei is a list of the component teachings of Togakure Ryu, well, that would be a clue as to whether or not we teach them


 
Who did Wayne Roy learn his Togakure Ryu techniques from? I remember reading somewhere that he spent most of his training with Nagato-sensei


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## Chris Parker (Sep 17, 2010)

Hi Yaiba,

As I've said many times, the instructor is far more important than things like the system (and I include my instructors and myself in that.... some will gel with us, others won't), so please realise that if there are persons such as yourself, BADASSBUDO, and others who didn't find something that was for them with us, that's really fine with me. I'm happy that you've found somewhere that works for you. That said, I wouldn't mind clarifying a few things (and answering your questions to the point that I am able).



Yaiba said:


> When I was part of Wayne Roy's group, we did mostly
> a) some stretching,
> 
> b) followed by some rolling (which sometimes included throwing a soft padded training tanto or hanbo in front of us then rolling to pick it up).
> ...


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## Yaiba (Sep 17, 2010)

Yaiba said:
			
		

> When I was part of Wayne Roy's group, we did mostly
> a) some stretching,
> 
> b) followed by some rolling (which sometimes included throwing a soft padded training tanto or hanbo in front of us then rolling to pick it up).
> ...


 
Chris, just to clarify,
I wasn't putting down this part of the training...I was just pointing out that it wasn't much different to other bujinkan classes I have attended.



			
				Chris Parker said:
			
		

> Well, maybe it wasn't the clearest choice of words on my part. I didn't mean to imply that we had more Ninjutsu than the Bujinkan, just that our entire syllabus is based on such systems, whereas the Bujinkan has them, plus more, leaving us as more "pure" Ninjutsu, and the Bujinkan both Ninjutsu and samurai (as I said, Ninjutsu Plus!).
> 
> Essentially, the argument is simple. If there is a restaurant that only serves French food, it is a French restaurant. If they serve French food, Italian food, and Spanish food, you may call them a European restaurant, or a Mediterranean restaurant, but to simply refer to them as a French restaurant would be to dismiss the rest that the establishment has to offer. Does that make more sense?


 
That makes more sense


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## ElfTengu (Sep 19, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> My impression is that claiming ninjutsu is actually detrimental to your reputation, and what quality schools that do exist are continuously fighting the poor impression that subpar schools have given the general martial arts community. I'm not involved in ninjutsu directly, but through these boards and others, that's been the gist of what I've seen.
> 
> If I were inventing my style and looking for instant "cred", I'd claim MMA or some kind of RBSD over any false association with ninjutsu.


 
You're not wrong. Many of us who do have a qualification with one of the X-kans which do teach ninjutsu as part of their curriculum, are very reluctant to tell people that ninjutsu is what we do, or even mention the words ninjutsu or ninja when describing it. I call it taijutsu because that's what it is, and I describe it as just another word for jujutsu, which again is not incorrect. Not many people require me to then differentiate between 'my' jujutsu and the Brasilian variety or other sportive versions so it's all good and I can usually leave it at that.

So basically, most of us who do have some training in ninjutsu, do not want to be associated with the term ninjutsu, so it is both amusing and bemusing that so many people who do have never studied authentic ninjutsu feel that they can call their own (usually laughable) antics 'ninjutsu/ninjutsu'.


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## Tanaka (Sep 19, 2010)

ElfTengu said:


> You're not wrong. Many of us who do have a qualification with one of the X-kans which do teach ninjutsu as part of their curriculum, are very reluctant to tell people that ninjutsu is what we do, or even mention the words ninjutsu or ninja when describing it. I call it taijutsu because that's what it is, and I describe it as just another word for jujutsu, which again is not incorrect. Not many people require me to then differentiate between 'my' jujutsu and the Brasilian variety or other sportive versions so it's all good and I can usually leave it at that.
> 
> So basically, most of us who do have some training in ninjutsu, do not want to be associated with the term ninjutsu, so it is both amusing and bemusing that so many people who do have never studied authentic ninjutsu feel that they can call their own (usually laughable) antics 'ninjutsu/ninjutsu'.


In western martial art circles it will get you to be the center of everyone's joke.(especially with modern martial art practitioners. Traditional martial artist will probably ask you if you are from a takamatsu lineage, and if you say no. Then you become center of the joke)
BUT
In western society it will get you money from lots of people who want to be Ninja.
For evidence look at ChosonNinja's channel. He gets thousands of comments a day, from people thanking him for teaching them how to be Ninja.


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## ElfTengu (Sep 19, 2010)

Tanaka said:


> In western martial art circles it will get you to be the center of everyone's joke.(especially with modern martial art practitioners. Traditional martial artist will probably ask you if you are from a takamatsu lineage, and if you say no. Then you become center of the joke)
> BUT
> In western society it will get you money from lots of people who want to be Ninja.
> For evidence look at ChosonNinja's channel. He gets thousands of comments a day, from people thanking him for teaching them how to be Ninja.


 
Surely you mean thanking him for teaching them to be 'Dedicated to God Karateka'?

 He admitted a while ago that it aint ninjutsu that he is 'teaching', and btw, teaching is an interactive process, and in martial arts requires teacher and student to be in the same room, not watching them on a little youtube screen. You tube doesn't give much feedback when you try to copy what people are doing on there. I found this out when I tried to learn a Pussycat Dolls dance routine. 

And by 'people' you mean impressionable children and teenagers. If he is one of the 'ninjas' getting lots of money, as you have suggested, and if so it can only be from impressionable children and teenagers (or the type of adult that watches Simon Cowell's talent shows on TV) because he could not get it from discerning adults then he is not such a nice person as he tries to appear to be.

And I'm sure there is a comandment for Christians about not lying, and telling people that you are a ninja and that you are showing them ninjutsu when your techniques and skills have nothing to do with Japan's historical ninja or samurai, is lying, simple as that.

But if people want to dress in movie ninja costumes and do taekwondo moves and inflate each others' fragile egos then what's the harm?


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## Tanaka (Sep 19, 2010)

ElfTengu said:


> Surely you mean thanking him for teaching them to be 'Dedicated to God Karateka'?
> 
> He admitted a while ago that it aint ninjutsu that he is 'teaching', and btw, teaching is an interactive process, and in martial arts requires teacher and student to be in the same room, not watching them on a little youtube screen. You tube doesn't give much feedback when you try to copy what people are doing on there. I found this out when I tried to learn a Pussycat Dolls dance routine.
> 
> ...


HeeHee, hes always changing what he says.
But hes still determined that he has Korean Ninja lineage. Lol Anyways back to topic. I don't want to derail this topic to ChosonNinja, since I'm pretty sure a lot of people are tired of him.


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## ElfTengu (Sep 22, 2010)

Tanaka said:


> HeeHee, hes always changing what he says.
> But hes still determined that he has Korean Ninja lineage. Lol Anyways back to topic. I don't want to derail this topic to ChosonNinja, since I'm pretty sure a lot of people are tired of him.


 
If he keeps all the spotty teenagers glued to their monitors and practicing spinny kicks in the privacy of their own bedroom, and out of our authentic dojo, then he's not all bad.

He does seem to want to be loved though, not a great personality trait for an effective ninja. 

I am surprise he didn't jump on the sulsa bandwagon though, he looks like he has the hips for a bit of sulsa.

(Sulsa, along with Lin Kuei and all sorts of other oriental shenanigans, popped up in the late 80's as apparently 'equivalent' to Japan's ninja, and allegedly practiced something called Sulsado, which looked very much like Taekwondo in ninja outfits (or even ordinary Taekwondo suits), in fact it reminds of someone, I can't think who though.......!)


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## Vulcan (Sep 22, 2010)

What a fascinating thread.



Regardless of one's conclusions on the validity of ninjutsu as an art form, it seems that some have taken more pains to be authentic than others (such as C.Parker), and thus should be commended for their tenacity and efforts.



It takes a lot of courage for a Westerner to run such a school circa 2010. It probably takes an enormous amount of work to do it "correctly" and be convincing.


One question though: how does an independent Ninpo school reinforce it's teacher's training and keep the lineage connection alive after 10 or more years of doing it without an umbrella?


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 23, 2010)

Vulcan said:


> One question though: how does an independent Ninpo school reinforce it's teacher's training and keep the lineage connection alive after 10 or more years of doing it without an umbrella?



Good question. The answer is: by going independent, you can't keep the connection alive. That is why -when looking at such schools- it is important to consider whether the new headmaster got a complete transmission of the art or not. In traditional systems this is easier because of the menkyo system.

With Bujinkan this is more difficult because they don't (at least in public) use it anymore. So then you have to look at what rank and understanding the person had when he left, and whether that would constitute a complete transmission, or at least complete enough to be considered 'whole'.

If that is the case, then the headmaster can keep his art alive by continuing to train his art, just like Hatsumi sensei, Tanemura sensei and Manaka sensei did after they became 'independent'.


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## Yaiba (Sep 23, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> With Bujinkan this is more difficult because they don't (at least in public) use it anymore. So then you have to look at what rank and understanding the person had when he left, and whether that would constitute a complete transmission, or at least complete enough to be considered 'whole'.


 
I think you need to look at time in the art also...due to the fact that in the bujinkan you can come across a 5th dan that has been training for 3 years one that has been training for 25 years. Rank means nothing. It's time put in.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 23, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Good question. The answer is: by going independent, you can't keep the connection alive. That is why -when looking at such schools- it is important to consider whether the new headmaster got a complete transmission of the art or not. In traditional systems this is easier because of the menkyo system.
> 
> With Bujinkan this is more difficult because they don't (at least in public) use it anymore. So then you have to look at what rank and understanding the person had when he left, and whether that would constitute a complete transmission, or at least complete enough to be considered 'whole'.
> 
> If that is the case, then the headmaster can keep his art alive by continuing to train his art, just like Hatsumi sensei, Tanemura sensei and Manaka sensei did after they became 'independent'.


 
Yep, agreed. 

The only difference I would state is that with the Bujinkan, honestly, rank is less of an indication than most other places. There are some very skilled people with very high ranks (15th Dan holders), and there are some frankly terrible ones with very high rank (.... holding myself back from naming names here.... not the easiest thing in the world...), and the same is seen down the entire rank spectrum. There are some that are ranked much lower who are far better, and those ranked lowerer who are definately worse. So, for the Bujinkan, I would look to the individual rather than the rank. I've even heard of responces from Hatsumi Sensei when asked about the less-than-ideal high rankers along the lines of "Well, that's so the bad students have somewhere to train..."


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## Vulcan (Sep 23, 2010)

Yaiba said:


> I think you need to look at time in the art also...due to the fact that in the bujinkan you can come across a 5th dan that has been training for 3 years one that has been training for 25 years. Rank means nothing. It's time put in.




But training for 25 years under someone who has not received full transmission, is not recognized by a traditional Japanese organization, or has been separated from these factors by a matter of degrees due to being a part of an independent school...what does that mean? Does that also mean "nothing" in terms of being recognized as a qualified practitioner or teacher of Ninjutsu? 


The conundrum seems to be: 

- one has practiced authentically (to an extent) Ninpo, but without oversight by a recognized entity in from Japan.

- one has practiced authentically Ninpo, in Japan, with oversight by a recognized entity but in a ryu that is not considered "All Ninpo, all the time" or that has promoted unskilled teachers.

-one has started off with a recognized entity/teacher, practicing authentically, but then branched off into an independent school, thus breaking the chain of lineage and the continuous reinforcement of transmission.


Which leaves a person to wonder, what makes a style authentic? 

If a person legitimately trains for years and dedicates her life to an art, but never gets graded or receives transmission from a recognized Japanese authority, then is that person an authentic practitioner (not qualified to teach, just very, very skilled, adept, and knowledgeable in practice)?

What about those that have vast resources of knowledge, owns many books, weapons, or possibly even a school, speaks/reads/writes fluent Japanese,
and has dedicated their entire life to the art, yet is one degree removed from a Japanese authority, due to being an independent ? Are they qualified to teach "authentic" Ninpo?


Finally, I call Ninpo, Ninjutsu, et. al., a "lost" art because there is so much dispute over what was actually practiced historically, or even the nature and contents of that practice. A lot of speculation exists, which puts serious and dedicated enthusiasts in a difficult position. Either to embrace the Bujinkan (and other "X-kans") where they will not necessarily be given full transmission or even the full catalog of knowledge, but rather focus on Taijutsu (at which point one is not Ninja, but Taijutsuka that knows a bit about Ninpo), or go off on your own to either join or establish a "real Ninja" school....with no living connection to Japan, thus embracing the art but not being recognized by any official organization. This is not usually the case with traditional JMA which were "sporterized" post WWII, but were revived as their budo form later on, thus preserving the living connection with the original form, because there was enough evidence recorded and living practitioners around to know definitively what the form consisted of.


Unfortunately much of the anthropological data about Ninpo is in dispute, so one just has to rely on A). lineage or B.) faith or both to consider oneself an authentic Ninja. And even then...


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## bribrius (Sep 23, 2010)

It appears i have alot to learn. About half this thread is over my head. :uhyeah:


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 24, 2010)

Well, if you want to be technical about it ...

Anyone can learn authentic ninjutsu if the teachings come either directly or indirectly from one of the ninjutsu ryuha. However, you cannot master it without the guidance / instruction of someone who has got a full transmission. The menkyo system does have its benefits, and one of them is that it is perfectly visible whether someone got a complete transmission or not.

For example, in Genbukan we all learn some of it from day one. In that respect we can argue that we all learn some true ninjutsu (plus a whole lot of other stuff). It is possible to attain full menkyo kaiden in Genbukan, and if someone was then to break away and do his own thing while having a full transmission of e.g Togakure ryu, then that new system could rightfully be called ninpo as well.

But I agree, a lot of it comes down to semantics.


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## TedBraid (Jun 27, 2015)

It has been many years, But I was Dojo Cho of the Genbukan Sanmitsu Dojo in Maryland. Mt license to teach was Hand written by Kancho Shoto Tanemura during a seminar in Long Island. I have lost touch and the organization is difficult to get past to contact the Kancho, but we used to write each other weekly. I was trained traditionally for 14 years and was his escort on his first trip to America. Now I don't know everything but if you can count in Japanese the number of techniques is referred to as Sanjuhappen, which is either 36 or 38 I think. And these were not weapons techniques, these were referred to as Po or the concept of. So you did not learn Kenjutsu per se, you learned Tojustu (blade), Taijutsu (body) Shurikenjutsu (not throwing stars... THROWING EVERYTHING AS A WEAPON FOR DEFENSE, DISTRACTION, EVASION). So Chris is on the most accurate track, especially as some techniques for weapons like the bow, the spear, and the Naginata, which, by the way started as a pole arm type weapon, but became the chosen weapon of the lady of the house as it is perfect for covering an entrance against multiple attackers. That is why the technique has become one of the more graceful wazas to watch. And I have to give credit to Chris for bringing up Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei. The grandmaster is related to Hatsumi and Tanemura, I have studied this technique and still believe it was a cover for those Ninja who at the time were Samurai as well (spies, spies everywhere). But that was the limit to my education. I used to have the full genealogy tree back to Hanzo (supposedly) and it is quite interesting. A ryu was a different concept than a style is today and nearly every great master was related. O-Sensi's teacher was a JuJutsu grandmaster and his ryu was related to both Kokusai and Takage Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu. And that is still taught down the road from Kancho's home town. Oh and shame on all of you for forgetting Teppo. The Ninja were among the first to use hand held cannons and then guns. Kancho was a detective for Tokyo metro police and taught Teppo. In fact we taught the Long Island Swat team a the seminar and I have taught guards at one of the local military facilities. Finally I suggest the title Ninja remain tied to the classical teachings. Warriors like Seals are SEALS. That title needs no embellishment.

Submitted humbly,

Ted Braid


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## Chris Parker (Jul 21, 2015)

TedBraid said:


> It has been many years, But I was Dojo Cho of the Genbukan Sanmitsu Dojo in Maryland.



Hi Ted, welcome aboard!



TedBraid said:


> Mt license to teach was Hand written by Kancho Shoto Tanemura during a seminar in Long Island. I have lost touch and the organization is difficult to get past to contact the Kancho, but we used to write each other weekly.



Sounds great!



TedBraid said:


> I was trained traditionally for 14 years and was his escort on his first trip to America. Now I don't know everything but if you can count in Japanese the number of techniques is referred to as Sanjuhappen, which is either 36 or 38 I think.



Sanjuhappan is a reference to 38 (sanjuhachi - pretty literally: three tens [thirty] and eight)… that said, I haven't come across a Sanjuhappan… commonly, you will encounter the Bugei Juhappan (18 martial skills of the samurai) and the Ninja Jukahhei (18 powers/skills of the ninja), which would be combined to come up to 36 methods, although of course there was a fair bit of cross-over… and the ideas of what was included in each list, as well as what was intended by each, changed depending on the era, location, ryu-ha, and so on.



TedBraid said:


> And these were not weapons techniques, these were referred to as Po or the concept of.



Well… "Ho" (法 - method/law/concept)… it becomes "po" when used as the suffix to certain consonants.



TedBraid said:


> So you did not learn Kenjutsu per se, you learned Tojustu (blade), Taijutsu (body) Shurikenjutsu (not throwing stars... THROWING EVERYTHING AS A WEAPON FOR DEFENSE, DISTRACTION, EVASION).



Sure… but again, dependant on the age, the ryu, and so on… 



TedBraid said:


> So Chris is on the most accurate track, especially as some techniques for weapons like the bow, the spear, and the Naginata, which, by the way started as a pole arm type weapon, but became the chosen weapon of the lady of the house as it is perfect for covering an entrance against multiple attackers.



As well as providing a reach advantage, and other reasons… but, of course, this was not universal for all naginatajutsu ryu-ha… 



TedBraid said:


> That is why the technique has become one of the more graceful wazas to watch.



That and the nature of the weapon itself… remember that the name of the weapon translates roughly as a "mowing down blade"… which implies large, sweeping actions… which are naturally graceful in and of themselves.



TedBraid said:


> And I have to give credit to Chris for bringing up Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei. The grandmaster is related to Hatsumi and Tanemura, I have studied this technique and still believe it was a cover for those Ninja who at the time were Samurai as well (spies, spies everywhere).



Most "ninja" were samurai, of course… but I'm a little unsure as to who you're referring to as the "grandmaster" of the Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei there… the Kancho of the KJJR is Tanemura Sensei… there is no "grandmaster" of the KJJR, as it's an organisation, not a ryu-ha itself, with a homogenised syllabus drawn from a number of ryu-ha, most notably Asayama Ichiden Ryu and Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu (Hontai Yoshin Ryu Takagi Ryu).



TedBraid said:


> But that was the limit to my education. I used to have the full genealogy tree back to Hanzo (supposedly) and it is quite interesting. A ryu was a different concept than a style is today and nearly every great master was related.



Well, I agree that a ryu was (and is) a different concept to a simple "style" (not that that was what the thread was actually about when it was started 5 years ago), but the idea that all of the masters were related… no. That I don't agree with. Many warriors would claim, or create a family connection back to the Minamoto clan, or some other famous family, but that wasn't really something that could be taken as factually correct.



TedBraid said:


> O-Sensi's teacher was a JuJutsu grandmaster and his ryu was related to both Kokusai and Takage Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu. And that is still taught down the road from Kancho's home town.



Yeah… you've lost me again. By "O'Sensei", are you referring to Ueshiba Sensei of Aikido? Or to Takamatsu (some X-Kan groups have applied the title to him)? Or someone else? And, again, Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei isn't a style itself, or a ryu… there can't be a "relation" between it and a ryu in the way that there can be for Takagi Yoshin Ryu.



TedBraid said:


> Oh and shame on all of you for forgetting Teppo. The Ninja were among the first to use hand held cannons and then guns.



Yeah… I don't know that I quite believe that story… I know it's popular in certain circles, but it's not supported by any verifiable history. After all, the first firearms brought into Japan were bought by the Daimyo of Tanegashima Island, who purchased three for his head swordsmith to copy for his samurai. Within a few decades, Japan was producing more guns than Europe… and were very much used by samurai… 



TedBraid said:


> Kancho was a detective for Tokyo metro police and taught Teppo. In fact we taught the Long Island Swat team a the seminar and I have taught guards at one of the local military facilities.



Cool.



TedBraid said:


> Finally I suggest the title Ninja remain tied to the classical teachings. Warriors like Seals are SEALS. That title needs no embellishment.



This, I agree with.



TedBraid said:


> Submitted humbly,
> 
> Ted Braid



Good to have you here, Ted.


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