# Koryu Karate



## The Kai (May 30, 2005)

Hey
I've heard about Koryu Karate.  Supposedly a native japanese art, older than the okinwan importThoughts??


----------



## arnisador (May 30, 2005)

I think koryu is a general term referring to classical JMA (not Karate). Try www.koryu.com which is a good reference site.


----------



## The Kai (May 30, 2005)

No, this is specifically a "karate" type art


----------



## Andrew Green (May 30, 2005)

Karate is Okinawan, Not Japanese.

 Prior to importing it from Okinawa in the early 1900's there was no Karate in Japan.

 "History" is one of those things that is always changing


----------



## TimoS (May 31, 2005)

Here's a possible explanation. Some instructors here in Finland call what they teach koryu karate, but they don't mean it as a separate style, rather a way of practising karate. Here's a loose translation (by me) from the web page of one such group (they're doing Wado ryu karate): 



> Koryu-karate
> 
> The koryu karate practised in our club is not a separate karate style, rather it is way of practising karate. Koryu karate means 19th century Okinawan approach to karate. Back then karate was known as Tode-jutsu, chinese hand art.
> 
> ...



Another possible explanation came when I was searching for that information with google: it is part of Genbukan (look e.g. here)



> Koryu means old school, Karate means China hand
> (although it can also be read as empty hand but this is the case for Karate schools from Okinawa).
> 
> The Koryu Karate system is mainly focused on Kijin Chosui Ryu Dakenjutsu and Tenshin Ryu Kenpo techniques which can be traced back to the Amatsu Tatara scrolls Tora no Maki and Ryu no Maki (Tiger and Dragon scrolls).  It was the original intention of Grandmaster Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei to teach this system to the public (as Dankojutsu) which he could unfortunately not fulfill due to lack of time. Grandmaster Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto Sensei learned those Ryu-Ha from Grandmaster Kobayashi Masao (Hosho) Sensei and from Grandmaster Kimura Masaharu (Masaji) Sensei and also added Shizen Ryu Karate/Chinese Karate (from Grandmaster Sato Kinbei Sensei) to it.
> Those Grandmasters received the teachings from Grandmaster Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei and from Grandmaster Ueno Takashi Sensei.


----------



## The Kai (May 31, 2005)

It's the second one that I am talking about.  is there any validity behind these claims??


----------



## TimoS (May 31, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> It's the second one that I am talking about.  is there any validity behind these claims??



Don't know, never seen it, but it would be interesting to know. Tanemura himself is a highly respected martial artist, so I think there must be _something_ there


----------



## The Kai (May 31, 2005)

I was wondering if there were any other sources for the idea of a Karate art existing on japan before the introduction from okinwan


----------



## eyebeams (May 31, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> I was wondering if there were any other sources for the idea of a Karate art existing on japan before the introduction from okinwan


 Hatsumi regularly referred to koppojutsu as karate in his books (usually using both terms together), but not in a way intended to imply a connection with Okinawan martial arts.


----------



## The Kai (May 31, 2005)

But, yet it is referred to as Koryu Karate


----------



## TimoS (May 31, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> But, yet it is referred to as Koryu Karate



True, but the "kara" in this case means "China", not "empty". 

I checked with a Bujinkan guy about this and what he said is that, while they don't have this specific style, they have something that this is based on, Hontai Kijin Chôsui Ryû Kukishin Ryû Dakentaijutsu. According to him, in Bujinkan at least, these techniques are based on unarmed combat by samurai in armor. It contains kicks, punches, throws, counterthrows, etc.

He also said that the "china hand" rendering of karate was used by some legendary ninja leader in 16th century (Iga-ryû Karate).


----------



## The Kai (May 31, 2005)

:bs:


----------



## TimoS (May 31, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> :bs:



That's a bit harsh. You could ask the same question over in ninjutsu, see what they think


----------



## arnisador (May 31, 2005)

The term 'judo' was used centuries before Kano, I believe--but just by one or two idiosyncratic schools. So, I can believe someone called something 'karate' but not that it was Karate as we think of it.


----------



## Kizaru (Jun 1, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> :bs:


 
Hi there!

On the left wall of the entry way to the Bujinkan Honbu dojo in Japan is a framed piece of paper stating the "intention" of ninpo. The signature line reads "Sandayu Momochi, Koto ryu Karate Koppojutsu Soke". Sandayu Momochi was known to be the head of a particular Iga ryu ninjutsu tradition, as well as rumored to be the head of a Koga tradition. In this case, the "Kara" is written with the character for "Tang" as in "the Chinese Tang Dynasty"; which is when Koto ryu was said to have been brought to Japan. If you search on Martial Talk under "_Bugei ryuha Daijiten_" you should be able to find some translations I did with related information. 

There are other koryu in Japan that trace their roots to "_Karate_" with the "kara" being the character for "Tang" (rather than the popular Okinawan writting style where the character for "empty" is used).

As someone else in this thread mentioned, the term "judo" was also used before Kano Jigoro decided to use it, and, there is a koryu being practiced today known as "Takeda ryu Aikido" that is completely unrelated to Ueshiba's modern Aikido.

All the best,

Richard Maloof


----------



## YouAgain (Jun 7, 2005)

Koryu Uchinadi by Patrick McCarthy


----------



## Andrew Green (Jun 7, 2005)

= Okinawan in inspiration, not Japanese


----------



## The Kai (Jun 7, 2005)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> Hi there!
> 
> On the left wall of the entry way to the Bujinkan Honbu dojo in Japan is a framed piece of paper stating the "intention" of ninpo. The signature line reads "Sandayu Momochi, Koto ryu Karate Koppojutsu Soke". Sandayu Momochi was known to be the head of a particular Iga ryu ninjutsu tradition, as well as rumored to be the head of a Koga tradition. In this case, the "Kara" is written with the character for "Tang" as in "the Chinese Tang Dynasty"; which is when Koto ryu was said to have been brought to Japan. If you search on Martial Talk under "_Bugei ryuha Daijiten_" you should be able to find some translations I did with related information.
> 
> ...


Actuaaly doing a quick search on the Takeda ryu, turns out Takeda is the original namer of daito ryu.  There is a lineage and historical connection to the roots of Aikido-why the name is streamlined I don't know

_Hatsumi regularly referred to koppojutsu as karate in his books (usually using both terms together), but not in a way intended to imply a connection with Okinawan martial arts_

Once you use the Karate term aren't you automatically in reference to Okinwan rooted systems.  Since japan was closed during the devolpmental time period of Karate, allthough I am sure that they punched each other it was not systemized

If I pick up an escrima stick and fence with it can I now say I teach escrima (fencing), never mind the implication that there is a methology that I am unaware of, but I am fencing right?


----------



## TimoS (Jun 7, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Once you use the Karate term aren't you automatically in reference to Okinwan rooted systems.



Not necessarily. If a japanese koryu had roots in chinese arts, then I don't see why they wouldn't have called it karate (with the kanji for China). It doesn't have to have any connection to Okinawan arts. People just assume when hear karate that it is the originally okinawan martial art. They just assume wrong  Before this thread I was one of those people, so live and learn


----------



## The Kai (Jun 7, 2005)

Outside of references to karate by hatsumi-did it exist??


----------



## YouAgain (Jun 7, 2005)

Does Koryu not just mean Oldschool? So it would just be oldschool karate?


----------



## Kizaru (Jun 7, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Outside of references to karate by hatsumi-did it exist??


Yes.


----------



## Kizaru (Jun 7, 2005)

YouAgain said:
			
		

> Does Koryu not just mean Oldschool? So it would just be oldschool karate?


No.


----------



## Kizaru (Jun 7, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Actuaaly doing a quick search on the Takeda ryu, turns out Takeda is the original namer of daito ryu. There is a lineage and historical connection to the roots of Aikido-why the name is streamlined I don't know


The "Takeda" involved with Daito ryu and the "Takeda" who founded "Takeda ryu Aikido" were two different people living a few hundred years apart. A "quick search" may turn up some information, but I would suggest doing a search in Japanese, or better yet, getting a copy of the "All Japan Dojo Directory" from BAB Publications, coming to Japan and checking it out for yourself.


----------



## Andrew Green (Jun 7, 2005)

TimoS said:
			
		

> Not necessarily. If a japanese koryu had roots in chinese arts, then I don't see why they wouldn't have called it karate (with the kanji for China).


 toudi = China hand

 But it is more of a slang "China", the character actually refered to the Tang Dynasty.

 The Japanese and the Chinese did not get a long, at all.

 Thats why the changed to Karate when it went to Japan, to dissassociate it with China.  "China Hand" would not have been practiced in Japan.


----------



## Kizaru (Jun 7, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> toudi = China hand


Which Chinese characters are you writing it with here?



			
				Andrew Green said:
			
		

> But it is more of a slang "China", the character actually refered to the Tang Dynasty..


"Slang"? Interesting. I've never heard that before. How long have you studied Japanese for? I've studied Chinese for about 3 years, Japanese for about 6. I've been living in Japan for about 4 or 5 years now and feel pretty comfortable with my language abilities.



			
				Andrew Green said:
			
		

> The Japanese and the Chinese did not get a long, at all..


 Then can you explain why they imported Buddhism, Sun T'zu, Confucian values, the fundamentals of Feng Shui and Chinese characters as a system of writing? If they didn't get along "_*at all*"_ I think that would be a little difficult.



			
				Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Thats why they changed to Karate when it went to Japan, to dissassociate it with China. "China Hand" would not have been practiced in Japan.


Have you read the posts I wrote above?

&#21776;&#25163; (KARA TE) "Tang" or "Chinese" Hand. Typically used to classify martial arts systems arriving in Japan during or before the "Warring States" period.

&#31354;&#25163; (KARA TE) "Empty Hand". Typically used as a catch all phrase for Okinawan martial arts systems.


----------



## Gene Williams (Jun 10, 2005)

I have never heard, until recently, the term "koryu" applied to any karate. Koryu usually refers to the older Japanese arts related to sword and the aiki/jujutsu arts. The people I know who use the term in relation to karate are using it to try to give lineage to what is basically a mix of Shotokan and a few Shorin kata. Hardly "koryu."


----------



## Martin h (Jun 19, 2005)

Ive know of Mr McCarthys recreated style that occationaly use the term Koryu karate to indicate that it tries to be what karate once was long ago, but in japan there are rules about who gets to term themself koryu. Rules that include verifiable lineage, paper trails to prove age of the established style since (3-400 years (or so, I dont have the exact age requirement handy -so I picked a number) and so on. It is part of the administration of their cultural history and heritage. You know you practice koryu if you learn how to defeat, or specialiced throw against, opponents wearing armour that went out of style in the 1600 century.
Karate, simply does not have the documents to qualify. Too many changes and crosstraining between the old masters, no established ryu´s old enough, no papertrails preserved.

However koryu is on occation used used as we would use "Oldschool", but not in any official capacity.

Regarding the karate of Bujinkan and Hatsumi. Ive heard of it from Bujinkan people. But it is only a matter of parallell evolution of a obscure term, and nothing to do with what is concidered karate today.


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Jul 27, 2005)

> Koryu means old school, Karate means China hand
> (although it can also be read as empty hand but this is the case for Karate schools from Okinawa).
> 
> The Koryu Karate system is mainly focused on Kijin Chosui Ryu Dakenjutsu and Tenshin Ryu Kenpo techniques which can be traced back to the Amatsu Tatara scrolls Tora no Maki and Ryu no Maki (Tiger and Dragon scrolls). It was the original intention of Grandmaster Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei to teach this system to the public (as Dankojutsu) which he could unfortunately not fulfill due to lack of time. Grandmaster Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto Sensei learned those Ryu-Ha from Grandmaster Kobayashi Masao (Hosho) Sensei and from Grandmaster Kimura Masaharu (Masaji) Sensei and also added Shizen Ryu Karate/Chinese Karate (from Grandmaster Sato Kinbei Sensei) to it.
> Those Grandmasters received the teachings from Grandmaster Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei and from Grandmaster Ueno Takashi Sensei.


I have the video where Tanemura sensei demonstrate the Kijin Chosui-ryu. It doesn't looks like modern Karate (Shotokan etc) at all but yes it does involve lots lots of striking techniques. So, this is a Koryu style which does not came from Okinawa but rather developed in Japan. I am sure the confusion will not occur if Tanemura sensei uses the term Koryu Kenpo. I dont know why he uses the word "Karate". But it's his Ryuha and therefore his rights to call it whatever he wants & teach it however he feels fit.


----------



## Akashiro Tamaya (Jul 28, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> The term 'judo' was used centuries before Kano, I believe--but just by one or two idiosyncratic schools. So, I can believe someone called something 'karate' but not that it was Karate as we think of it.




The original name of "Karate" was simply called "te"  or Tode It was the masters of Shuri that were at that time calling the art " Te"   or "Tode" Sakugawa used this term in honor of his teacher Peichin Takahara.   Takahara was a master of the Okinawan version of Chuanfa.  

"Tode" written in Kanji means "Chinese Hand"  The same character is also used in Korean and pronunced as Tang Soo.

Bear in mind that the term "Karate" is not as old as we think.  In fact karate from Okinawa is about 150 years olds.  The kata practiced is about less than 100 years old.  Hell, the uniform we wear is about 80 years old. 


Hope this helps !


----------



## Akashiro Tamaya (Jul 28, 2005)

Martin h said:
			
		

> Karate, simply does not have the documents to qualify. Too many changes and crosstraining between the old masters, no established ryu´s old enough, no papertrails preserved.



Hi Martin  !

Thought I could add a little fun fact.

The "Karate" in Shuri was practice in secret.  We know this for a fact because Japan, under the penalty of death forbids any Okinawan to  armed or practicing any martial arts training.  

The Okinawan masters may not have built a library or DVD's :ultracool , but we can be sure of the fact that they kept "secret" notes on their training techniques.

It was the battle of Okinawa in 1945 that forever took much and destroyed many of these Masters notes on "Karate" . 

In 1945 the US needed a strategic base to be used against Japan.  Okinawa was the best choice for location.  The japanese also believed that Okinawa was a great piece of property worth fighting for.  The Japanese imperial army decided  used the ancient and beautiful old Shuri castle as a headquarters.  

It was the battleship "Missouri" who moved in closer to the shore and bombarded the ancient castle to dust.  Every building in the Naha coastline as well as Shuri were also reduced to rubbles.  Along the rubbles were the homes of many masters of okinawan karate that were gutted by fire along with all their possesions.

Sadly, this is probably why few of "traditional"  Karates history  is often at this point a "word" form mouth of the remaining survivors.


----------



## arnisador (Jul 28, 2005)

Many if not most of the kata are older than 100 years--esp. the older Chinese ones--but most are not more than 200 years old, I'd wager.


----------



## Ippon Ken (Jul 28, 2005)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> &#21776;&#25163; (KARA TE) "Tang" or "Chinese" Hand. Typically used to classify martial arts systems arriving in Japan during or before the "Warring States" period.
> 
> &#31354;&#25163; (KARA TE) "Empty Hand". Typically used as a catch all phrase for Okinawan martial arts systems.


There was a lot of animosity towards the Chinese in the early 1900's. THe Japanese have always had a superiority complex and although they adopted and identified Chinese religion and philosophy to a certain degree (as well as a superficial, simplified form of their "alphabet"), they began to think of the Chinese (and all non-Japanese "races") as inferior. Surely you know this fact. As a consequence Gichin Funakoshi, and before him, Chomo Hanashiro used the characters that signified the "empty hand" definition (the first characters you listed). Prior to this on Okinawa the Okinawans used the term "Toudi" which meant "Tang Hand". This was signified by the second kanji you listed. In fact that is the kanji used on my yudansha certificates (Tang Hand) to name the Okinawan MA I am ranked in.

I wouldn't doubt that some warring factions against the ruling Shogunate that were exiled, like the Satsuma Clan, learned some methods from Okinawa's Toudi Jutsu in exchange for teaching Shuri royal guards like Sokon Matsumura their system of kenjutsu (i.e.: Jigen Ryu).

Maybe folks like Chen Gempin who helped influence the grappling of JJJ by bringing the knowledge of certain Chuan Fa (Kempo) techniques to Japan, also influenced the atemi aspect of certaain Aikijutsu and JJ schools.

I would tend to believe that Toudi or Tang Hand which is what Okinawa Te was originally called became karate and Hatsumi Sensei adopted some karate principles and integrated them with the Bujinkan.

Anything is possible though. Who knows.

Just understand that the term and kanji for karate actually defined the Okinawan MA as "Tang Hand" until the Dai Nippon Butokukai adopted it as a true Japanese Budo. The change to the "Empty Hand" designation was made to please the Japanese governing body. That is the known history of Tang Hand.


----------



## The Kai (Jul 29, 2005)

_I would tend to believe that Toudi or Tang Hand which is what Okinawa Te was originally called became karate and Hatsumi Sensei adopted some karate principles and integrated them with the Bujinkan.
_

_S_o then it would'nt, by definition, be KoRyu but a newer art


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Jul 29, 2005)

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> I would tend to believe that Toudi or Tang Hand which is what Okinawa Te was originally called became karate and Hatsumi Sensei adopted some karate principles and integrated them with the Bujinkan.
> 
> Anything is possible though. Who knows.


True, anything is possible. I have seen Genbukan teachers demonstrating their "Koryu Karate", and it is not a modernized Okinawan Karate nor Jujutsu with Karate thrown in... From what I have seen, what is known in the Genbukan as "Koryu Karate" is more like a blend of two ancient Jujutsu Ryuha (Shinto Tenshin Ko-ryu Kenpo and Kijin Chosui-ryu Daken Taijutsu). I think Tanemura sensei called them "Koryu Karate" because it is written in the lineages of these two arts that these arts has influences from "China Hand" (Tang Hand), just like Kito-ryu was influenced by Chen Yuan Ping (Chin Genpin) or Shinto Yoshin-ryu was influenced by what Akiyama learned in China...


----------



## Gene Williams (Jul 29, 2005)

Karate ain't koryu. Forget it. Ninjutsu isn't either. Quit trying to claim something to which you aren't entitled. I have trained traditional Okinawan karate for 35 years and I don't lose any sleep about not being considered koryu. The wannabee's have just learned a new word, "koryu," so they want to include it on their list of ridiculous claims. Get back to the dojo and train and quit worrying about whether your art is koryu. If you have to ask the question, you aren't koryu.


----------



## Akashiro Tamaya (Jul 29, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Many if not most of the kata are older than 100 years--esp. the older Chinese ones--but most are not more than 200 years old, I'd wager.




Can you list which Kata(s) you believe is more than a hundred years old ?


----------



## arnisador (Jul 29, 2005)

One hundred years only takes you back to 1905. There are many kata that were practiced in the 1800s. When would Gichin Funakoshi have learned Karate, after all? For example, Sanchin is a variant of a Southern Chinese form of a fairly similar name (sam chien of, for example, Five Ancestor Fist kung-fu).


----------



## Gene Williams (Jul 29, 2005)

There are Okinawan kata going back into the 1800's. Kushanku is one, Sanchin (in some form) is probably another. We can't be sure about some others. When you get into Chinese kata (which is where many Okinawan ones came from) there are some older. However, that does not make karate koryu.


----------



## arnisador (Jul 29, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> However, that does not make karate koryu.


  Yes, I made that point in post #2 of this thread. The term koryu is for certain older arts that are from Japan, not Okinawa.


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Jul 31, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Yes, I made that point in post #2 of this thread. The term koryu is for certain older arts that are from Japan, not Okinawa.


Yes. Indeed GM. Tanemura's Koryu Karate came from Japan, not Okinawa, as he describes in his website www.genbukan.org


----------



## The Kai (Aug 1, 2005)

Gotta love the revisionist history


----------



## George Kohler (Aug 6, 2005)

Looks like there is a lot of confusion about Koryu Karate.

The kanji for "Karate" is the same as "Tode" but just pronounced differently. It is not that same kanji as what is used these days like in Shotokan or Shito-ryu, which means "empty hand".

"Koryu Karate" is a mix of two schools; Hontai Kijin Chosui-ryu Kukishinden dakentaijutsu and Shindo Tenshin-ryu (aka Tenshin Ko-ryu). These two are japanese ryuha that can be found in the book _Bugei Ryuha Daijiten_, but have quite a bit of Chinese MA influence before the Meiji restoration. That is why Tanemura Sensei uses "Chinese hand" instead of "empty hand". It does not look like Shito-ryu, Goju-ryu, Shotokan, Wado-ryu, ect.


----------



## Gene Williams (Aug 7, 2005)

There is no such thing as "koryu karate" except in some modern martial arts folks heads who, for some reason, feel they need that either for marketing purposes or to try and legitimize themselves. But, if it makes you feel better, go ahead and call it that.


----------



## The Kai (Aug 8, 2005)

Marketing Ploy


----------



## r erman (Aug 8, 2005)

You know, I'm not a part of the Genbukan, and I have no idea why Mr Tanemura is using the term koryu karate--aside form the fact that several of Takamatsu's documents described koppo systems as karate koppojutsu, thus emphasizing that they were a chinese import--but I have no clue as to why people think it is a marketing ploy.  

With the overwhelming popularity of jujutsu right now that would seem to be the term to use as most people don't know the difference between modern sport 'jits' and classical japanese jujutsu.  That and the label 'ninjutsu' would--and do--attract a lot more attention from a marketing standpoint than karate...


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Aug 8, 2005)

George Kohler said:
			
		

> Looks like there is a lot of confusion about Koryu Karate.
> 
> The kanji for "Karate" is the same as "Tode" but just pronounced differently. It is not that same kanji as what is used these days like in Shotokan or Shito-ryu, which means "empty hand".
> 
> "Koryu Karate" is a mix of two schools; Hontai Kijin Chosui-ryu Kukishinden dakentaijutsu and Shindo Tenshin-ryu (aka Tenshin Ko-ryu). These two are japanese ryuha that can be found in the book _Bugei Ryuha Daijiten_, but have quite a bit of Chinese MA influence before the Meiji restoration. That is why Tanemura Sensei uses "Chinese hand" instead of "empty hand". It does not look like Shito-ryu, Goju-ryu, Shotokan, Wado-ryu, ect.


George-san, I understand that the name "Koryu Karate" really strikes a nerve for some people, thus the "marketing ploy" accusations. Well, I guess not everybody had the privilege of experiencing the Kukishinden/Kijin Chosui-ryu Dakentaijutsu & understand that they are completely different with modern Karate 

Now that we are in Kijin Chosui-ryu and Tenshin Ko-ryu Kenpo mode, I'd like to know more about the VCD/Videos that Tanemura sensei made about these two Ryuha.. are these VCDs shows all required Katas, or just a few Katas as an overview? I am very interested in seeing Ryuha techniques in action, and thinking of buying VCDs from Takagi, Kijin Chosui-ryu and Tenshin Ko-ryu Kenpo from the Genbukan site..


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Aug 8, 2005)

r erman said:
			
		

> You know, I'm not a part of the Genbukan, and I have no idea why Mr Tanemura is using the term koryu karate--aside form the fact that several of Takamatsu's documents described koppo systems as karate koppojutsu, thus emphasizing that they were a chinese import--but I have no clue as to why people think it is a marketing ploy.
> 
> With the overwhelming popularity of jujutsu right now that would seem to be the term to use as most people don't know the difference between modern sport 'jits' and classical japanese jujutsu. That and the label 'ninjutsu' would--and do--attract a lot more attention from a marketing standpoint than karate...


Yes, that's true Mr. Erman, I tend to think that way as well


----------



## arnisador (Aug 8, 2005)

George Kohler said:
			
		

> "Koryu Karate" is a mix of two schools; Hontai Kijin Chosui-ryu Kukishinden dakentaijutsu and Shindo Tenshin-ryu (aka Tenshin Ko-ryu).


 Are you saying that _ko-ryu_ is the proper name of the style here, not a general adjective, as in the koryu arts of Japan?


----------



## Gene Williams (Aug 8, 2005)

George Kohler said:
			
		

> Looks like there is a lot of confusion about Koryu Karate.
> 
> The kanji for "Karate" is the same as "Tode" but just pronounced differently. It is not that same kanji as what is used these days like in Shotokan or Shito-ryu, which means "empty hand".
> 
> "Koryu Karate" is a mix of two schools; Hontai Kijin Chosui-ryu Kukishinden dakentaijutsu and Shindo Tenshin-ryu (aka Tenshin Ko-ryu). These two are japanese ryuha that can be found in the book _Bugei Ryuha Daijiten_, but have quite a bit of Chinese MA influence before the Meiji restoration. That is why Tanemura Sensei uses "Chinese hand" instead of "empty hand". It does not look like Shito-ryu, Goju-ryu, Shotokan, Wado-ryu, ect.


That is the most ridiculous nonsense I ever heard.


----------



## RRouuselot (Aug 17, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Hey
> I've heard about Koryu Karate. Supposedly a native japanese art, older than the okinwan importThoughts??


Can you tell us where you heard about this?
What was said about it?


----------



## The Kai (Aug 18, 2005)

It's a ninjitsu thing


----------



## RRouuselot (Aug 18, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> It's a ninjitsu thing


   That doesnt explain much..Can you expand on that a bit? Perhaps you can tell us where or from whom you heard about it....things like that. 


   Also, if its a Ninja thing then shouldnt it be in their forum and not here.


----------



## The Kai (Aug 18, 2005)

Here's a link

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?koryu

The reasom i put it here was to see if there was any other schools of ancient japanese karate


----------



## RRouuselot (Aug 18, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Here's a link
> 
> http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?koryu
> 
> The reasom i put it here was to see if there was any other schools of ancient japanese karate


    I just had a look at the website and the mpegs.

 The guy obviously is trying to copy a few other arts, namely Chinese Kung Fu and Japanese Judo and claim it is some ancient art that only a few select people know. 

    His claims are doubtful at best. 

    Basically its a bunch of crap.
 In the Masters section the guy named Sato Kinbei even states he studied Isshin ryu.as well as Ba Gua.


----------



## JAMJTX (Aug 18, 2005)

Thw only way you can consider "karate" to be ancient or "koryu" is if you apply the term according to age of the parent arts.   But still that would be nothing but a marketing ploy.

As for what the Genbukan is teaching I can speak from experience. A fried took her kids and signed them up for classes.  They were told they were learning "Ninjutsu".  It looked to me like a combination of Tae Kwon Do and some basic Judo.

As for Ninjutsu, there is such an ancient art, it's just not what salesman like Hatsumi, Hayes and the Genbukan folks say that it is.  Ninjutsu is/was a surveilence art which would include camoflage, etc.  It was taught as part of ancient military arts.  I believe it is still part of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu.  Other than that, Ninjutsu is just a code word for McDojo, as is "Koryu Karate".


----------



## Blindside (Aug 18, 2005)

> Other than that, Ninjutsu is just a code word for McDojo, as is "Koryu Karate".



*Gets popcorn and a soda, gets prepared to watch the flamewar.*


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Aug 19, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> In the Masters section the guy named Sato Kinbei even states he studied Isshin ryu.as well as Ba Gua.


From what I know, Sato Kinbei did not study the Isshin-ryu karate of Okinawa (Shimabukuro style), but he studied an older Koryu Jujutsu system with the same name (Isshin-ryu Jujutsu) from Onno Soukichi, who learned from Satsuma Katsusuke. Sato sensei's Bagua Zhang training came from Li Zi Ming sensei. Please visit www.jujutsu.com (Sato Kinbei sensei's website) for more info.


----------



## George Kohler (Aug 24, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> That is the most ridiculous nonsense I ever heard.



Gene,

I'm not sure which part of my post is ridiculous.

"Koryu Karate" is the name of a system that Tanemura Sensei *has put together* from *several* schools. This has nothing to do with Ninpo/Ninjutsu. Those schools are:

Hontai Kijin Chosui-ryu Kukishinden dakentaijutsu (aka Kijin Chosui-ryu)
Shindo Tenshin-ryu kenpo (aka Tenshin Ko-ryu)

Now, if you think that the above ryuha are ridiculous maybe you need to do some research as to who actually has studied one of these schools. I'll give some examples.

Who studied Shindo Tenshin-ryu kenpo:
Mabuni Kenwa (hey Gene, don't you study Shito-ryu?)
Sakagami Ryusho (Shito-ryu fame)
Fujitani Masatoshi (Shito-ryu)
Fujita Isamu (Fujita Seiko)

Would you tell the people above that the school they studied was ridiculous?


----------



## George Kohler (Aug 24, 2005)

Test. Having issues posting.


----------



## Martin h (Aug 25, 2005)

Genbukan is a splintergroup from Bujinkan and the founder (Tanemura) was a student of Hatsumi (and of the same teachers as Hatsumi). But they had a falling out and parted ways.
Bujinkan consist of 9 ryus where Hatsumi is the current head. 

According to Hatsumi, the one of the 9 (now known as "Koto Ryu Koppojutsu") was once known as "Shinden Koto-ryuu Karate". And was founded byTaro Kunishige around 1300 (no I have no idea if this is recognised by japanese historians or if he has valid documentation for its lineage -but it is what he claims).
Hatsumi is also careful to point out that this is not a type of karate as karate is known today, it is merely a case of a term (karate=chinese hand) being used in the same way for similar reasons (to indicate chinese roots) at different places at different times. Also he uses the term "karate" only in historical references, he does not use it on the current ryu.

Genbukan uses the mostly same history as bujinkan, but does not claim to teach exactly the same ryus (and varies a bit with names). It does not look like tkd+jujutsu as some described it, but being a "ninjutsu" style I guess they might have problem with "quality controll" of their gaijin teachers -so I would not be that supprised to find a tkd+jujutsu guy teach what he calls "genbukan" without realy knowing the real stuff.

But even if they dont claim their karate is the same thing as okinawan karate, I realy wish they would use the more generic word "kempo" instead.


----------



## Brother John (Aug 25, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> The Japanese and the Chinese did not get a long, at all.
> Thats why the changed to Karate when it went to Japan, to dissassociate it with China.  "China Hand" would not have been practiced in Japan.


Actually, Japan and China had gone back and forth....
friends / enemies / friends / enemies....etc. for a long long time. 
BUT: For the most part, from what I've read, they were 'friendly' more often than not. 
For instance, in the raising of young Samouri in the Buke (Samouri families) a good portion of their young lives were spent memorizing, line for line, the "Chinese" classics, ranging across several subjects. Also: The very way of writing is very connected. 

Your Brother
John


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Aug 25, 2005)

Martin h said:
			
		

> Genbukan uses the mostly same history as bujinkan, but does not claim to teach exactly the same ryus (and varies a bit with names). It does not look like tkd+jujutsu as some described it, but being a "ninjutsu" style I guess they might have problem with "quality controll" of their gaijin teachers -so I would not be that supprised to find a tkd+jujutsu guy teach what he calls "genbukan" without realy knowing the real stuff.


That is very true... I have practiced Judo (only several months but enough to spar a bit) and I have practiced Taekwondo (only a year to get yellow belt). So I can tell that the Genbukan-KJJR techniques that I have seen practiced here in Indonesia by a Genbukan teacher does not even remotely looks like Judo+Taekwondo... for starter, no jumping spinning kicks, no prolonged grappling on the ground, and no sparring for points... in fact most of what they do looks very much like Hakko-ryu Jujutsu that one of my teachers taught.. lots of techniques done while sitting, using wristlocks... Wristlocks are not prominent in Judo and Taekwondo as far as I know..


----------



## JAMJTX (Aug 28, 2005)

"for starter, no jumping spinning kicks, no prolonged grappling on the ground, and no sparring for points"

This is just what was being taught at Long Island Ninjutsu.  I had some students there demonstrate for me what they were learning.  As I understand, this is still part of the Genbukan.

Jim Mc Coy


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Sep 6, 2005)

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> "for starter, no jumping spinning kicks, no prolonged grappling on the ground, and no sparring for points"
> 
> This is just what was being taught at Long Island Ninjutsu. I had some students there demonstrate for me what they were learning. As I understand, this is still part of the Genbukan.
> 
> Jim Mc Coy


Ah.. if I am not mistaken, that is the Dojo of Allie Alberigo Renshi, am I right? One of the more successful Genbukan Dojo in the USA, or so I am told


----------



## JAMJTX (Sep 8, 2005)

Probably financially successful yes.  But martial arts wise it's a joke.

Like I said, I know students there, or at least who were there, and got a good overview of what they were learning.  It was pretty sad.

Jim Mc Coy


----------



## searcher (Sep 8, 2005)

Do they have a website?


----------



## Gene Williams (Sep 9, 2005)

George Kohler said:
			
		

> Gene,
> 
> I'm not sure which part of my post is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


I am very familiar with the lineage and history of Mabuni and Sakagami. Just because some wannabee blended a bunch of styles and called it koryu doesn't make it a koryu art. It is the blend and the pretense/marketing BS that is ridiculous.


----------



## TonyU (Sep 9, 2005)

Didn't they all start training _after_ the Meiji restoration? thus their art and subsequent styles after make it gendai.


----------



## chinto (Jun 12, 2007)

The Kai said:


> Hey
> I've heard about Koryu Karate. Supposedly a native japanese art, older than the okinwan importThoughts??


 

to answer simply... NO.  its that simple. Karate did not come from okinawa to japan till between 1915 and 1922, and was not really excepted till funikoshi modified it a fair amount in or around 1922 to 1928 or so. 

Karate was founded and developed in Okinawa. So if it is called Karate it has a very large influince from Okinawan Karate at the least.


----------



## TimoS (Jun 12, 2007)

chinto said:


> to answer simply... NO.  its that simple. Karate did not come from okinawa to japan till between 1915 and 1922, and was not really excepted till funikoshi modified it a fair amount in or around 1922 to 1928 or so.
> 
> Karate was founded and developed in Okinawa. So if it is called Karate it has a very large influince from Okinawan Karate at the least.



This karate doesn't really have anything to do with the Okinawan version. It just happens to use the same words (China hand in this case, I believe), as it was "imported" from China. Confusing, yes, but not unheard of. E.g. I believe there has been a sword style called kendo before the modern kendo. Read e.g. Martin h's reply to the topic earlier on on this page


----------



## chinto (Jun 13, 2007)

TimoS said:


> This karate doesn't really have anything to do with the Okinawan version. It just happens to use the same words (China hand in this case, I believe), as it was "imported" from China. Confusing, yes, but not unheard of. E.g. I believe there has been a sword style called kendo before the modern kendo. Read e.g. Martin h's reply to the topic earlier on on this page


 

the term Karate refers to the Okinawan blend of chinese martial arts and the native Okinawan arts. also Kobujistu/kobudo as I have been exposed to it over the years is refering to the Okinawan use of weapons. Meany of these weapons were farm and fishing tools and a few were some what weapons availeble at diferent times depending on the laws of the time. kendo is a relitivly modern version of the use of the katana from what I understand. I have been Told by thoes who are much more knowledgeble then myself in the Japanese martial arts that Kenjitsu is the actual use of the katana in combat and that kendo is a sportorized version that was developed after the majji restoration.  But, I can say this, the Okinawan version of Kobujitsu/kobudo is the use of farm and fishing tools in the most part used in enerist and in deadly efficency agenst both unarmed and armed persons.  as to which predates which between Okinawan Kobujitsu/kobudo and kenjitsu, my money would with out question be on Okinawan Kobujitsu/kobudo.


----------



## TimoS (Jun 13, 2007)

chinto said:


> the term Karate refers to the Okinawan blend of chinese martial arts and the native Okinawan arts



Usually, yes, but there are exceptions to the rule. E.g. the China hand term has apparently been used by some famous ninja already in the 16th century, he called it Iga ryu karate. See e.g here http://www.winjutsu.com/source/sandayu.html. 

This is very confusing


----------



## chinto (Jun 14, 2007)

Akashiro Tamaya said:


> The original name of "Karate" was simply called "te" or Tode It was the masters of Shuri that were at that time calling the art " Te" or "Tode" Sakugawa used this term in honor of his teacher Peichin Takahara. Takahara was a master of the Okinawan version of Chuanfa.
> 
> "Tode" written in Kanji means "Chinese Hand" The same character is also used in Korean and pronunced as Tang Soo.
> 
> ...


 

that does depend on the kata.  some of them are a bit older.  seisan may be easily about 200 years old or perhaps more. and kusanku is similer in that kind of posible age.  karate or tode was practiced for a long time with out kata persay but some drills in strikes and other techniques.


----------



## Bushikai (Jul 13, 2008)

Hello everyone,

Before you talk, is better to study first, or know about the person whe are talking about.

In spirit,

Henry.


----------



## chinto (Jul 14, 2008)

The Kai said:


> Hey
> I've heard about Koryu Karate.  Supposedly a native japanese art, older than the okinwan importThoughts??




my first thought is LOL!!!   

by definition Karate came from Okinawa.  so I do not in any way buy that.  that is not to say that jujitsu, the old Samurai styles do   not have any strikes, they do, just as Karate has locks and sweeps and throws and brakes and grapples. 
but no there is no style of Karate from japan that did   not come from a modification of an Okinawan style or a Japanese style that had been derived from an Okinawan one.


----------



## TimoS (Jul 14, 2008)

chinto said:


> by definition Karate came from Okinawa



The karate as we know it now, yes, but as was said on the first page of this thread, this karate has nothing whatsoever to do with the karate that originates from Okinawa. It just happens to use the same ideograms that the okinawan karate of old times, China hand. There never was and never will be any copyright on the word "karate", so while it is highly unlikely that there is any connection whatsoever between these two martial arts, I don't see it as an impossibility that someone somewhere back in time on mainland Japan had called his style karate, especially if his art was chinese in origin.


----------



## terryl965 (Jul 14, 2008)

TimoS said:


> The karate as we know it now, yes, but as was said on the first page of this thread, this karate has nothing whatsoever to do with the karate that originates from Okinawa. It just happens to use the same ideograms that the okinawan karate of old times, China hand. There never was and never will be any copyright on the word "karate", so while it is highly unlikely that there is any connection whatsoever between these two martial arts, I don't see it as an impossibility that someone somewhere back in time on mainland Japan had called his style karate, especially if his art was chinese in origin.


 

This so true


----------



## Hyper_Shadow (Jul 15, 2008)

> I don't see it as an impossibility that someone somewhere back in time on mainland Japan had called his style karate, especially if his art was chinese in origin.



I do, the japanese were incredibly funny about their culture. They would (and a lot still do) regard everyone else as beneath them. Chances are they'd rather eat their own head than admit they recieved help from the Chinese, especially in war.



> But, I can say this, the Okinawan version of Kobujitsu/kobudo is the use of farm and fishing tools in the most part used in enerist and in deadly efficency agenst both unarmed and armed persons. as to which predates which between Okinawan Kobujitsu/kobudo and kenjitsu, my money would with out question be on Okinawan Kobujitsu/kobudo.



The most dangerous thing to a retreating Samurai was a farmer who was hungry. Ever seen the film Seven Samurai? It's probably the best Samurai film ever.

The absolute fact is that despite claims for lineage and written records passed down we didn't live in that time. We weren't there and we don't know how it all worked. So we should take what we've got and use our own common sense. Some things aren't realistic to even attempt in the dojo so you should discard them. Think effective. These guys wanted to kill one another as fast as possible without getting hurt themselves. So you need to use your common sense and try to think from that perspective. That's the essence of koryu tode jutsu.


----------



## TimoS (Jul 15, 2008)

Hyper_Shadow said:


> I do, the japanese were incredibly funny about their culture. They would (and a lot still do) regard everyone else as beneath them. Chances are they'd rather eat their own head than admit they recieved help from the Chinese, especially in war.



Could be. On the other hand, they adopted the chinese writing and they also regarded the chinese culture quite highly. One of the legends of jujutsu is of a chinese man called Chin Gempin (this going from memory, I didn't check), so I still think that "china hand" is a possibility in mainland japanese martial arts


----------



## Hyper_Shadow (Jul 15, 2008)

Can't disagree too much with that, good point.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist (Jul 15, 2008)

I don't know why he calls it "Koryu Karate" though lit. it means old school China hands it can be seen as deceptive. I don't know why he chose that and since he creates his own style Chugoku Kenpo and has visions of resurrecting dead Iga ryuha on airplanes he can call his arts what ever he wants I guess.


----------



## Hyper_Shadow (Jul 15, 2008)

How about, The Way Of The intercepting Sandwich? That's got a nice ring to it..... Maybe we should do poll for this...... check out the funnies.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist (Apr 23, 2009)

Thought I would add some more info on the subject:

&#21776; This Kanji is read as Tang or China. This &#21776;&#25163; is read as Tang/China Hand. Koryu &#21476;&#27969; meaning old school.

The problem is the Okinawan arts were already using the term Kara te meaning China hand before Funakoshi changed or popularized the term empty hand.

 As Mr. Kohler said



> Koryu Karate" is the name of a system that Tanemura Sensei *has put together* from *several* schools.


 If so then it is a Gendai art and not a koryu art because the system is created in the modern times. It is like calling an art Koryu Aikido even though it is based off Daito ryu. It is a sly,deceptive use of terminology IMO used as a marketing ploy.


----------



## chinto (Apr 24, 2009)

OK Karate was defined in the 1920's or so, as a term for the Okinawan art that before had been known as china hand. it became empty hand at that point. but I have not seen any documented source of the term karate for any martial art before that time.   The Japanese have been extremely ethnocentric, in fact down right extremely racist in the past, and to some extent now.  The Japanese used the jujitsu arts for what they did, and while they may over time have adopted some of the Chinese techniques they were exposed to, they were slow to do so from what i can see.   if it was not japanese and invented there they did not tend to use it.   hell the Jujitsu systems they had were effective and worked with their other arts of the sword and such very well.

so my final say is  that the claim is B.S.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist (Apr 24, 2009)

Here's a question:

If something is merged together in the Gendai(modern) period how can it be still called Koryu?


----------



## Bruno@MT (Apr 26, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Here's a question:
> 
> If something is merged together in the Gendai(modern) period how can it be still called Koryu?



Because the term is used as a name or description, and not to indicate an art that is acknowledged by the major koryu organizations? Afaik, it IS a valid use of the term koryu.

You really have an axe to grind with Tanemura sensei, no?
You might as well harp on the fact that taekwondo is deceptive marketing because it translates to 'way of the foot and the fist' or something like that, while I have yet to see a taekwondo match in which either fighter uses his fists.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist (Apr 26, 2009)

> Because the term is used as a name or description, and not to indicate an art that is acknowledged by the major koryu organizations? Afaik, it IS a valid use of the term koryu.


 
It is kinda of misleading and misrepresenting.

Its like calling Aikido Koryu Aikido because it comes from Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu or Koryu Judo because it comes from Kito ryu Jujutsu.

 Calling an art that was put together in a gendai area does not make it koryu any more than say Aikido or Judo.



> You really have an axe to grind with Tanemura sensei, no?


 No. I will question claims,oddities that are put on the web by Mr.Tanemura and the Genbukan for clarity purposes and I encourage others to do the same. But before I make my statements I do check with a native on the use of the terminology if they as well find it odd then I ask the question.


> You might as well harp on the fact that taekwondo is deceptive marketing because it translates to 'way of the foot and the fist' or something like that, while I have yet to see a taekwondo match in which either fighter uses his fists.


 You are more than welcome to bring this up to the Taekwondo people on the board From my limited understanding they do have strikes with fist. However on your point IF Taekwondo was created in the modern area but called itself ancient Taekwondo then yes I would question it. If the art translated as Fist and Foot way but there is absoultely no use of either foot or fist I would question it.


----------



## Sukerkin (Apr 26, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Here's a question:
> 
> If something is merged together in the Gendai(modern) period how can it be still called Koryu?


 

It can't and that really is the end of the story.  No amount of debate in this thread will change that simple truth.  

_koryu_ does not mean "Old school" in the sense of "the old methods" - it literally means "Old school".  To call an art _koryu_ which does not come from one of those schools is misrepresentation.  It's that pure and simple.

An example I think I have used before is that it is like taking a couple of old scrap cars, welding them together, hammering them into the shape of an SLK 320 and putting a Mercedes Benz badge on the front.  It's not a Mercedes and never can be and if it was built with the intent to make people think it *is* a Mercedes then it's an infringement of patent and copyright.


----------



## Bruno@MT (Apr 26, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> _koryu_ does not mean "Old school" in the sense of "the old methods" - it literally means "Old school".  To call an art _koryu_ which does not come from one of those schools is misrepresentation.  It's that pure and simple.



Difficult. I suppose it comes down to semantics and liguistics. I'll ask my sensei about this when I see him tomorrow. He is a Gebukan member and he knows Japanese and Japanese history.

It's not like I want to argue with people, but I considered they term koryu to be used in the sense of 'old school' as it is used today: to indicate 'like _they did way back when'_, and not _'what they did then'_. (I hope I managed to make the distinction clear)

Anyway I'll check with Sensei and see what he says.


----------



## Haze (Apr 26, 2009)

As a practitioner of Goju I found this little tidbit about what is  considered koryu


There are two years that define the way Goju-ryu has been considered by the Japanese establishment: the first, 1933, is the year G&#333;j&#363;-ry&#363; was officially recognized as a budo in Japan by Dai Nippon Butoku Kai, in other words, it was recognized as a modern martial art, or gendai budo. The second year, 1998, is the year the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai recognized Goju-ryu Karatedo as an ancient form of martial art ( koryu) and as a bujutsu. This recognition as a _koryu bujutsu_ shows a change in how Japanese society sees the relationships between Japan, Okinawa and China. Until 1998, only martial arts practiced in mainland Japan by samurai had been accepted as _koryu bujutsu_.

Seems like the Japanese have changed the way they see things quite a few years ago.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist (Apr 26, 2009)

Here is the Kanji for Koryu. Ko=&#21476;  here is the Hiragana for Ko=&#12371;
For Ryu=&#27969; if we translate this Ko=means old Ryu=style/school
Koryu is also used as a dating period:


> While there is no "official" cutoff date, the dates most commonly used are either 1868, the first year of the Meiji period, or 1876, when the _Hait&#333;rei_ edict banning the wearing of swords was pronounced.


 
Gendai on the other hand:



> meaning "modern martial way," are modern Japanese martial arts which were established after the Meiji Restoration (1866-1869). Kory&#363; are the opposite: ancient martial arts established before the Meiji Restoration.


 So again if You take two arts that are koryu and merge them together in modern times it is not Koryu but gendai thus the term Koryu Karate is incorrect. Also there is no such art called Koryu Karate. The name Koryu Karate is Mr.Tanemura's creation and is not a legit koryu style. As noted:


> what he teaches comes from the techniques of Kijin Chosui Ryu Dakenjutsu (striking hand technique) and Tenshin Koryu Kenpo (fist method).


 Kukishin or kukishinden ryu is considered Koryu but again it is similar to say Daito ryu Aikijutsu and calling Aikido Koryu Aikido because it comes from Daito ryu.



> Difficult. I suppose it comes down to semantics and liguistics. I'll ask my sensei about this when I see him tomorrow. He is a Gebukan member and he knows Japanese and Japanese history.


 Sukerkin practices a Koryu art, I can speak and read Japanese,My wife is a Japanese native,Memebers on this thread also say it is incorrect.


> but I considered they term koryu to be used in the sense of 'old school' as it is used today: to indicate 'like _they did way back when'_, and not _'what they did then'_. (


 As I said earlier Ko-means old Ryu-means school in a way Koryu and Gendai are used as dating periods to tell the difference between Before Meji and after Meji.


----------



## Errant108 (Apr 28, 2009)

chinto said:


> OK Karate was defined in the 1920's or so, as a term for the Okinawan art that before had been known as china hand. it became empty hand at that point. but I have not seen any documented source of the term karate for any martial art before that time.



Are you the be all & end all of knowledge of pre-Meiji era Japanese arts?

Do you read Kanji?

What actual research have you done into this subject?



chinto said:


> The Japanese have been extremely ethnocentric, in fact down right extremely racist in the past, and to some extent now.



The Japanese have also gone through periods where they slavishly copied Chinese culture.  Further, Japanese culture has always been adept at syncretism, & has never had any compulsion against learning from the Chinese, adapting this new knowledge, and making it their own.

Your statements accusing the Japanese of racism & ethnocentrism, in light of the historical inaccuracy of your critique, could in turn, be considered an exposition of your own ethnocentrism.



chinto said:


> The Japanese used the jujitsu arts for what they did, and while they may over time have adopted some of the Chinese techniques they were exposed to, they were slow to do so from what i can see.   if it was not japanese and invented there they did not tend to use it.   hell the Jujitsu systems they had were effective and worked with their other arts of the sword and such very well.



This is blatantly your opinion & not backed up by historical fact.



chinto said:


> so my final say is  that the claim is B.S.



Good for you.

It is a historical fact that there are pre-Meiji era Japanese systems known as "Karate".  This is written with the Kanji &#21776;&#25163;.  Pre-Meiji era, in Japan, these would not be referring to the Okinawan arts, given that in Okinawan, these characters are pronounced Toudi, and pronouncing Karate is a linguistic mondernism thanks to influence of the Japanese on Okinawan speech.

The Genbukan karate systems have every right to be called Karate.  Their status as Koryu is a completely different animal.


----------



## Sukerkin (Apr 28, 2009)

Errant108 said:


> Your statements accusing the Japanese of racism & ethnocentrism, in light of the historical inaccuracy of your critique, could in turn, be considered an exposition of your own ethnocentrism.


 
Hmm, not a boat that I would chose to sail on, I have to say, from my own study of Japanese history and culture.  It has been a very strong trait in the Japanese psyche for a very long time after all.


----------



## Errant108 (Apr 28, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> Hmm, not a boat that I would chose to sail on, I have to say, from my own study of Japanese history and culture.  It has been a very strong trait in the Japanese psyche for a very long time after all.



The issue is not whether or not those traits exist within Japanese culture, but rather, dismissing something WITHOUT PROPER RESEARCH, based on accusations of Japanese racism & ethnocentrism.  That shows faith in an assumed stereotype, rather than otherwise.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist (Apr 28, 2009)

> http://www.mardb.com/karate/whats-in-a-name.html


 Great work on the Kanji differences.

Its some what hard press to say that back then they used the word Karate in verbalization of the kanji. Obviously the Kanji can be read as Kara or Tou and in modern Japanese it would most likely be read as Kara. I think a Japanese historian or the likes would be best at answering that. Maybe Karl Friday or someone on Koryu.com can shed some light on it.

Since the Genbukan Karate is put together in modern times I suppose calling it Karate is fine. I suppose also calling it Karate because Takamatsu wanted to call it that is fine. It could lead some people to wonder why not call it Dakenjutsu,or Kenpo or any other Striking name. Even odder is why call it Koryu if it is a modern art.


----------



## Sukerkin (Apr 28, 2009)

*Errant*, I don't know if I'm misreading you or not, given the limitations of the format but you seem (to me at least) to be agitated, either by this topic or by *Chinto*. 

Descent into 'bullet point wars' is usually a sign of empassioned disagreement and I've never seen such threads reach a satisfactory conclusion.

I can see I shall have to read through this thread more deeply and see where the roots lie.


----------



## Errant108 (Apr 28, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> *Errant*, I don't know if I'm misreading you or not, given the limitations of the format but you seem (to me at least) to be agitated, either by this topic or by *Chinto*.
> 
> Descent into 'bullet point wars' is usually a sign of empassioned disagreement and I've never seen such threads reach a satisfactory conclusion.



Hardly.

I use the quote function because it allows me to address key points in someone's arguments.  This allows for a clear point to point conversation.  There should be no confusion as to what I am addressing, because I've quoted it, and responded to it directly.



Sukerkin said:


> I can see I shall have to read through this thread more deeply and see where the roots lie.



Feel free, but it's all there in my previous two posts in this thread.


----------



## chinto (May 3, 2009)

I have not found any reference to Karate before the 20th century. that was a term adopted in the 20th century. it was a change in the pronunciation of  Tode,  china hand.. that was changed to empty hand in the last century.

as to the Jujitsu systems effectiveness..  do you doubt that they were and are efficient and effective systems of unarmed combat that the samurai used in conjunction with their weapons systems ?  or do you think that they used something else as their main unarmed systems of combat? I am not clear on that.


as to the Japanese being very much people who practiced the 'It was not invented here reflex,' and ' it is not our way! and has not been our way!' why do you think that they outlawed fire arms so long ago in japan? or closed off the whole country with a death penalty to any intruders..this was only ended by Admiral Parry's visit and his ships cannon.. 

why is every one who is not an ethnic Japanese transitionally called  barbarian?


if you wish to say that there are arts that strike and are older Japanese arts.. ok.. like I said, Funikoshi who was a student of Master Itosu asked a jujitsu expert after a demo in the 1920's or so if he "was not a student of  Okinawan Todi?" 

 If this is a true story , then surely there can be argued that some of the jujitsu systems used a lot of strikes as well as locks, just as Okinawan martial arts traditional use locks and throws and brakes too.

but if as has been argued  Koru refers to pre majji restoration arts... can you show me what art was called Karate and still is from that time to this?

I can document as well as any one the linage and style from Okinawa that I train in. the linage goes back to sakagowa and Iwah and  Ason then to Sokon Matsumura and down the linage.  so that linage is back into the 18th century AD...( 1700's A. D.)

does that make it Koru?  NO, not as far as I can see. the definition of Koru is that of a Samurai practiced traditional Japanese system of martial arts.  the broadest definition I have seen for Koru is  Traditional Japanese practiced art ( IE practiced on the Japanese home islands, and not the *Ryukyu Islands...*)so the Okinawan art of Karate is not by definition Koru.


----------

