# Meeting your instructor in the street



## bluemtn (Oct 30, 2005)

I'm not really a beginner, but I thought this is as good of a place to ask as any.  What is the norm in the way of showing respect to your instructor when you just run into them on the street?  This happened to me the other day while going to a restaurant-  he seemed fine with shaking hands, but someone said in a book, to bow, like you're in class.  I know I've had the tendency to bow just because it was habit.  I'm curious on what everyone around has to say about it.


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## Jade Tigress (Oct 30, 2005)

Good question. I'm curious to see other replies. I don't have a good one myself. I only ran into my instructor once outside of class. We have a pretty good relationship in class so we just greeted each other as friends except I still would have a hard time calling him by his name outside of class because I'm so used to addressing him as Sifu. 

However, I was in a store shortly after I started MA and saw a couple high ranked students from another location of our school there. They _subtley_ hand saluted and nodded to each other.


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## mantis (Oct 30, 2005)

Sil Lum TigerLady said:
			
		

> Good question. I'm curious to see other replies. I don't have a good one myself. I only ran into my instructor once outside of class. We have a pretty good relationship in class so we just greeted each other as friends except I still would have a hard time calling him by his name outside of class because I'm so used to addressing him as Sifu.
> 
> However, I was in a store shortly after I started MA and saw a couple high ranked students from another location of our school there. They _subtley_ hand saluted and nodded to each other.


 i met my instructor online he was like stop calling me "Sir" we're out of class


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## 7starmantis (Oct 30, 2005)

It all depends on your instructor and how he teaches. Some are stricter than others on these aspects.

7sm


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## bignick (Oct 30, 2005)

Pretty informally, outside of class they're just people like me or you, however, there's nothing wrong with referring to anybody as sir or ma'am just out of politeness...


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## swiftpete (Oct 30, 2005)

Personally I'd just say "hi, how you doing?". My instructor doesn't have us saying sir or bowing to him or anything like that. After class we all usually go for a drink together and talk rubbish about films, computer games, women and stuff like that. It doesn't make me respect him less as a martial artist or anything, i prefer it this way than having him acting like a superior being!


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 30, 2005)

you should be able to talk to your instructor outside of class the same way you would speak to any other acquaintance.
i think it is a ridiculous display of ego when a martial arts teacher wants to be referred to as sensei or master outside of class, yes, this does happen.


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## Jade Tigress (Oct 30, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i think it is a ridiculous display of ego when a martial arts teacher wants to be referred to as sensei or master outside of class, yes, this does happen.



LOL! I agree. Hard to believe that actually happens but I know it does. Thank God I haven't run across anyone like that personally.


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## 7starmantis (Oct 30, 2005)

Grant it, but its not only that type of situation. There are those who refer to their instructor in this way of their own accord desiring to show respect.


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## Jade Tigress (Oct 30, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Grant it, but its not only that type of situation. There are those who refer to their instructor in this way of their own accord desiring to show respect.



Yeah but that's different than being _required_ to do it. Choosing to do it should make the repect of the action much more meaningful to the instructor greeted that way than to one who demands it.


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## Blindside (Oct 30, 2005)

We are pretty informal, and all the instructors at the school are pretty close so it would just a "Hi Jim" situation.  If it was in the summertime I would probably make fun of his shorts, but thats another story. 

Lamont


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## Danny T (Oct 30, 2005)

I have been an instructor and school owner for better than 15 years and the only thing I have ever asked my students to call me is by my name. I do ask the youth to refer to me as Mr. or Sir only to enforce a protocol of courtesy to all adults. As to the other instructors in the training center they are referred to as Sifu or Guro within the confines of the school or at martial art events only. Most all of the members of our school do refer to me as Sifu however I have never asked for or require it. When asked as to what my title is or how am I to be called I simply say my name is Danny. Respect is given once I earn it. Courtesy is returned after I give it, never required or expected. I find it very amusing that someone would require another to give them respect before requiring it from themselves first and then earning from others. 

When out of the school I have always refered to my instructors as Sir, or Mister. I have had only one who required his students to refer to him by title outside of the school yet I always refer to him as Sir as he always refer to me. Never called me by name only "Sir". I returned the same. Other than he all of my other instructors call me by name and I always refered to them as Sir or Mister outside of the martial art arena.

Danny Terrell
Progressive Martial Arts Training Center


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## Eternal Beginner (Oct 30, 2005)

Usually my instructors greet me with a big hug outside of class.   Not caught up in all "stuff" and their egos at all, plus it helps that I'm older than one of my instructors and the other I've know for 20 years as a friend and instructor.


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## Tgace (Oct 30, 2005)

This aint feudal Japan....outside the scope of class he/she is just another person. Common courtesy and politeness is all thats required IMHO.


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## Solidman82 (Oct 30, 2005)

I think it's mostly a matter of the student's choice. Nobody is going to think it is weird that you use formal traditions and show respect for a superior rank. But on the othe hand, no instructor is ever going to get mad at you for speaking to him as a normal human being that puts his pants on in the morning like everyone else.



> Common courtesy and politeness is all thats required IMHO.


 
What he said, it's all that's required, maybe not all that's requested but hopefully not all that's received.


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## bluemtn (Oct 30, 2005)

During our class, we are expected to show respect- say sir, mam, master...  Outside of class, it's real relaxed for us.  They ask us any question your friend you've had for a while would ask.


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## shesulsa (Oct 30, 2005)

Well, I call my instructor my teacher, because he does much miore than instruct - but some people say that's semantics and I suppose it is for those who don't know what I'm talking about.

I don't necessarily think that it should be _required_ to bow to your martial arts superiors in public.  I bow to my teacher and my fellow martial artists outside of class (usually) because we're a tight-knit group, like family, really, and it's usually followed by a hug - certainly for my teacher and two of my fellow black belts.  I do this because I have enormous respect for my teacher both in and out of class - it's just something that feels right for me to do for him.


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## Loki (Oct 30, 2005)

Wow. This sounds weird. I'm just so used to helping my instructor and being ivolved with instruction generally that the whole distance idea is kept very minimal. Hell, we went to a wedding together in the summer... another instructor was getting married!


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## shesulsa (Oct 30, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> Wow. This sounds weird. I'm just so used to helping my instructor and being ivolved with instruction generally that the whole distance idea is kept very minimal. Hell, we went to a wedding together in the summer... another instructor was getting married!


We're not distant in the least - we're all very close.  See, I knew it would be hard to grasp.


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## Rick Wade (Oct 30, 2005)

When ever we meet him or any person senior to me whether it be on the street, at a function or in the studio I will always approach with my left fist clinched with the right hand covering the left (an abreviated salutaion).  


V/R

Rick


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## bluemtn (Oct 30, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> We're not distant in the least - we're all very close. See, I knew it would be hard to grasp.


 
It's cool-  that's how you show your respect, even out of class.  There are no right or wrong answers I'm looking for, just seeing how people feel on this issue.  It might be better if I could have it as a poll, but I can't do that.:asian:


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## Lisa (Oct 30, 2005)

I greet him the same way I would in the school.  However, I must admit it was strange seeing him the first time in his street clothes.   I was with another student of his at the time and he said "this is weird, you should be in gi pants and a tshirt" lol.


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## TimoS (Oct 30, 2005)

Whenever I meet my instructor out of dojo, I always refer to him as "sensei". I don't know, but I just couldn't talk to him using his first name. I'm kind of used to talking about him with others as "sensei" or "Matsuoi sensei". On the other hand, whenever he calls me, he always starts "Hi, it's Yuji". When talking with my seniors, I just use their names


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## hemi (Oct 30, 2005)

I live in a small town with two TKD schools, although I do not attend either of these schools I do from time to time come into contact with the instructors of these schools. And every so often when I go to the daycare to pick up my youngest daughter I run into one of the TKD instructors in uniform. He teaches a class at the daycare. I dont know if it was right or wrong but since he is a 4th Dan I did approach with my right fist clinched with the left hand covering the right (an abbreviated salutation).  And he just returned the salutation. Since this is how I salute my instructor as I enter the school that is how I would approach my instructor if I saw him on the street.  Just my .02


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## arnisador (Oct 30, 2005)

It's different with different instructors. Some want an always-formal relationship, but others think the dojo is the dojo and McDonalds is not. I have no problems either way, but it is hard to know what approach to take sometimes! I err first on the side of formality.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 30, 2005)

tkdgirl said:
			
		

> During our class, we are expected to show respect- say sir, mam, master... Outside of class, it's real relaxed for us. They ask us any question your friend you've had for a while would ask.



When I would me GM Presas, I would say, "Hey Professor how is it going?", he once explained to me the Grand Master sounds too much like Grand Father and salutes and bows were not necessary off the "mats". 

When I meet with Manong Ted Buot, I say, "Hi Sir", or "How are you Manong Ted?". This allows for a respectful greeting as did the professor title, without telling everyone you are a martial artist. 

When I first started and the local instructors were either my friends, and I called them by their first name off the mats and out of uniform, otherwise ie was Sir or Mr in class or in uniform.


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## Marvin (Oct 30, 2005)

I have all of the adults call me by my first name. The kids use Mr. Diem. All my curent instructors have me call them by their first name.
This has not always been the case, when I was training in Aikido wherever I was I had to bow and in a loud voice say osu!


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## terryl965 (Oct 30, 2005)

The adult usally say hello Terry and the childern address with sir or MR. but never ever Master outside the MA enviroment.
Terry


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## Jonathan Randall (Oct 30, 2005)

bignick said:
			
		

> Pretty informally, outside of class they're just people like me or you, however, there's nothing wrong with referring to anybody as sir or ma'am just out of politeness...


 
That's a darn fine point. Good manners don't cost anything and I think our society would be better served if, while retaining the subsequent advances in equal rights, we treated each other with the courtesy of half a century ago.

Regarding the original question, it depends upon the instructor and the system. A slight, but barely noticeable to those not looking for it, bow is usually the best course, IMO.


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## Jonathan Randall (Oct 30, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> It's different with different instructors. Some want an always-formal relationship, but others think the dojo is the dojo and McDonalds is not. I have no problems either way, but it is hard to know what approach to take sometimes! I err first on the side of formality.


 
... usually the safest and best course.


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## searcher (Oct 31, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> This aint feudal Japan....outside the scope of class he/she is just another person. Common courtesy and politeness is all thats required IMHO.


 
Right on the mark!    You should treat them as you would want to be treated.  It is the basic Golden Rule.   Keep it short and simple.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 31, 2005)

I have always made a short bow and shook hands.  Called them sir.  But, then, I stall call my 7th grade music teacher Mrs


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## Sam (Oct 31, 2005)

In the studio we call all the instructors by their first names (except for one, who goes by "mr".) So I see em at schnucks (grocery store) I say, hey, whats goin on steve? and that's that.


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## Epson (Oct 31, 2005)

I would say "sir" if it is a breaf encounter. 
I would keep saying it, untill the instructor would ask me not to do that.


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## Navarre (Oct 31, 2005)

I follow my extensive training received by watching old kung-fu movies: 

I sneer and mock my teacher when encountered as my rogue band of assassins attack him. As he falls in defeat I loudly declare the superiority of my style over his and proclaim myself "Master".

This has worked well on many separate occasions.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Oct 31, 2005)

I am surprised at the variety of answers on this thread.  There is only one correct procedure.

First, drop down to your knees.
Second, bend down and kiss your instructor's shoes.
Third, immediately jump to your feet with a kiai.
Finally, buy your instructor a beer.


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## Sam (Oct 31, 2005)

what if your not old enough to buy alcohol?


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## Navarre (Oct 31, 2005)

Samantha said:
			
		

> what if your not old enough to buy alcohol?


 
Then my approach is your best option. A 17 yr old female should have no trouble in convincing many rogue assassins to do her bidding.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Oct 31, 2005)

Samantha said:
			
		

> what if your not old enough to buy alcohol?


 
Then your instructor will need to settle for non-alcoholic beer and your next belt test will be more difficult as a result.  It is the only way.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 31, 2005)

tkdgirl said:
			
		

> I'm not really a beginner, but I thought this is as good of a place to ask as any. What is the norm in the way of showing respect to your instructor when you just run into them on the street? This happened to me the other day while going to a restaurant- he seemed fine with shaking hands, but someone said in a book, to bow, like you're in class. I know I've had the tendency to bow just because it was habit. I'm curious on what everyone around has to say about it.


I guess that would depend on two things, the country you live in and the size of the instructor's ego.  

If you were in, say Japan, the culture is different there, so maybe bowing is in order. But.. I think that in the USA where I am, a "greeting" and possibly a handshake should be sufficient. All the instructors I know are people like everyone else I know. Just my .02 cents worth.


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## jfarnsworth (Oct 31, 2005)

I say hey Steve, what's going on? Smile, and then move on.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 31, 2005)

Solidman82 said:
			
		

> Nobody is going to think it is weird that you use formal traditions and show respect for a superior rank.



Outside of the dojo?  I think it would be completely opposite.  Most people wouldn't have a clue as to why someone is acting that way.


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## Sam (Oct 31, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> Then my approach is your best option. A 17 yr old female should have no trouble in convincing many rogue assassins to do her bidding.


 
and how would one go about this?

*is suddenly very interested*


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## Navarre (Oct 31, 2005)

Samantha said:
			
		

> and how would one go about this?
> 
> *is suddenly very interested*


 
And how would you expect me to appropriately answer this question to one of your regrettable minor status? Are you baiting me? lol

Um, obviously I am suggesting that you should read poetry to them or perhaps tell them about the beauty of rainbows. 

*tries to look as innocent as possible*


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## hemi (Oct 31, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> And how would you expect me to appropriately answer this question to one of your regrettable minor status? Are you baiting me? lol
> 
> Um, obviously I am suggesting that you should read poetry to them or perhaps tell them about the beauty of rainbows.
> 
> *tries to look as innocent as possible*


 

LOL looks like you have opened a Big can of worms


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## Solidman82 (Oct 31, 2005)

> Outside of the dojo? I think it would be completely opposite. Most people wouldn't have a clue as to why someone is acting that way.


 
Actually what I meant to say was. Who cares what anybody thinks other then the two people involved in the greeting. Not I. Hopefully not Sensei/SiFu/Guro/Sir or Ma'am


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## JAMJTX (Oct 31, 2005)

"What is the norm in the way of showing respect to your instructor when you just run into them on the street?"

The same as in class or any other place.  Show due respect.


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## bluemtn (Oct 31, 2005)

Navarre, you remind me too much of my brothers.


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## cali_tkdbruin (Nov 1, 2005)

Outside of the dojang I would still address our master instructor as sabumnim or sir. I do it just as a sign of respect since he's shared so much with me and taught me so much about our beloved MA... :asian:


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## Navarre (Nov 1, 2005)

While I believe it is the instructor's right to determine out-of-class protocol, I would have some concerns about a sensei who required dojo-etiquette on the street. If I took this to be ego then I would carefully examine my desire to study under this person. 

If it is a cultural trait or even simply a deep respect for the Art that overrides typical social custom, that is fine. I would then gladly adhere to his system (and be tolerant if outsiders snickered).



			
				tkdgirl said:
			
		

> Navarre, you remind me too much of my brothers.


 
TKDgirl, should I take this as a compliment or not? lol


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## Icewater (Nov 1, 2005)

I always address them courteously with Sir or Sifu.  I do not bow like I do in class as it is not the custom for a hillbilly out on the street, but offer to shake their hand as a sign of mutual respect.


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## Bigshadow (Nov 1, 2005)

Solidman82 said:
			
		

> Who cares what anybody thinks other then the two people involved in the greeting. Not I. Hopefully not Sensei/SiFu/Guro/Sir or Ma'am



I agree with that sentiment, but at the same time you don't want to draw undue attention to yourself, or at least we don't.  Drawing that kind of attention could be seen as advertising/boasting of your training in a very subtle way (to the untrainined person).  In my opinion, I don't want to let anyone know I know anything.  I just want to blend in.

Just my opinions.


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## Gemini (Nov 1, 2005)

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> The same as in class or any other place. Show due respect.


 
Yep. I still bow and say sir. I don't really care what anyone thinks. To me, it's the right thing to do. If someone feels they need to make an issue of it, so be it.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Nov 1, 2005)

Outside of the dojo, I prefer that my student's address me as "Dude."


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## Navarre (Nov 1, 2005)

Well, I prefer _all_ people address me as "Master"...but it's not gonna happen.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Nov 1, 2005)

This whole topic really cracks me up.

About 25 years ago I was at a local party, mostly college kids...

One of the student's saw me holding a beer in my hand...

He came up to  me, jaws agape..."Mr. Wortman?  Are you breaking training?"

To which I replied.  "Yep, almost every Friday night."


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## Solidman82 (Nov 1, 2005)

> About 25 years ago I was at a local party, mostly college kids...
> 
> One of the student's saw me holding a beer in my hand...
> 
> He came up to me, jaws agape..."Mr. Wortman? Are you breaking training?"


 
This sounds like the script to a really bad kung fu flick


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Nov 1, 2005)

Solidman82 said:
			
		

> This sounds like the script to a really bad kung fu flick


 
Martial arts in the US in the early / mid '80s REALLY WAS all about trying to emulate all the really bad kung fu flicks...


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## TimoS (Nov 1, 2005)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Martial arts in the US in the early / mid '80s REALLY WAS all about trying to emulate all the really bad kung fu flicks...



To an outsider like me it seems that it still goes on


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## bluemtn (Nov 1, 2005)

TKDgirl, should I take this as a compliment or not? lol[/quote]

Take it as a compliment


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## bluemtn (Nov 1, 2005)

People (especially those not in MA) still take the arts way out of context!  I don't know how many people still think it's all about kicking someone's "but", it sure seems like a lot (at least in my area).


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## Gemini (Nov 1, 2005)

tkdgirl said:
			
		

> People (especially those not in MA) still take the arts way out of context! I don't know how many people still think it's all about kicking someone's "but", it sure seems like a lot (at least in my area).


 
The majority, I think. Being surrounded by people of like mind, we tend to become separated from the way outsiders (the majority of the population) perceive MA's. Take a step outside sometime and look in. You'll see what I mean.


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## Navarre (Nov 1, 2005)

You're right, Gemini. I could walk into someplace wearing a jacket that read "Varsity Football" or ""All-State Wrestling Champion" and ppl would simply be interested.

If I walk in wearing anything that identifies me as a martial artist, suddenly everyone wants to ask me if I can break concrete and then try to cheap shot me to prove they can get the drop on me.  Bizarre.

...and I'll be glad to take it as a compliment, TKDgirl. I'm sure you are fond of your brothers. No doubt you meant that they, like me, are witty and charming. 

I'm sure you wouldn't imply that your brothers would make barely-concealed suggestions about the seductive allure of 17 year old girls. *hums a little tune while continuing to look innocent*


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## skyguy (Nov 1, 2005)

Following the proper etiquette is very important at my dojo.

If I ran into my Sensei at the mall I would bow and refer to him as Sensei.

Its not uptight or uncomfortable, he is a very cool guy.
Thats just the way we do it.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Nov 1, 2005)

OK, here is something to ponder for all of you who bow to your sensei in public or call him Sensei, Sifu, or whatever.

What if your instructor only teaches part time?  What if he is with his co-workers?  What if his co-workers don't know he is a martial arts instructor?  What if he doesn't want his co-workers to know he is a martial arts instructor?

This happened to me in the late '80s.  It caused me a lot of ribbing, a challenge match from a co-worker with no training and a pea-brain, and an unsolicited attack from behind by a co-worker who took one in the nuts as a result.  

Sometimes, the greatest sign of respect is simply some discretion.


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## Solidman82 (Nov 1, 2005)

If an instructor doesn't want to be known as such then they shouldn't have themself referred to as an instructor at all, simply a person who trains with another person and knows more. If someone higher ranked wanted to keep it a secret then he or she should tell his or her students.


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## Tgace (Nov 1, 2005)

I think Ill now start demanding that people refer to me as "officer" even when Im off duty........


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## Solidman82 (Nov 1, 2005)

Wel, I tried to get people to call me God all the time, but then some people started trying to excorcise me.


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## ed-swckf (Nov 1, 2005)

i pay much respect to my sifu but when i meet him out and about we just go by first name basis.  I expect the same from my students really, so long as respect is still there.


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## Tgace (Nov 1, 2005)

I agree...even in the military you dont salute officers when you are both in civilian clothes. And I typically refer to someone I do not have a personal relationship of some sort with as Sir or Ma'am, unless they have specifically asked me do do otherwise.


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## ed-swckf (Nov 1, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I agree...even in the military you dont salute officers when you are both in civilian clothes. And I typically refer to someone I do not have a personal relationship of some sort with as Sir or Ma'am, unless they have specifically asked me do do otherwise.


 
Yeah i'm the same on the sir/ma'am thing too.


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## Tgace (Nov 1, 2005)

You typically find (in the US at least) that after a few Sir's or Ma'ams people usually tell ya to just call them by their first names.


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## Gemini (Nov 1, 2005)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> OK, here is something to ponder for all of you who bow to your sensei in public or call him Sensei, Sifu, or whatever.
> 
> What if your instructor only teaches part time? What if he is with his co-workers? What if his co-workers don't know he is a martial arts instructor? What if he doesn't want his co-workers to know he is a martial arts instructor?
> 
> ...


Different scenario. I would do as you do. But when your Sabumnim is Korean, and that is their custom, to not do so is considered rude. If my situation where as you described, I would act accordingly. It's just a question of manners. Different cultures, different manners.


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## bluemtn (Nov 1, 2005)

The other day, I was talking to this stranger and kept calling him sir.  He gave me a kind of weird look, and said that he wasn't used to be called sir.  My general rule is, if someone on the street is older than me, they're automatically a sir/ma'am.  Although I have called those younger than me that as well.  I think I called my instructor "mr..." (again, he seemed fine with that).


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## Grenadier (Nov 1, 2005)

Difficult to answer, so I'll cite some more specific cases from my own experiences.  I'll limit my focus to those instructors of mine who were significantly higher in rank than I ever achieved in that specific style.  

First of all, the most important factor is what the instructor wants.  If a senior instructor insists that we must refer to him by his title outside of the dojo, then that's what I'll do.  

I've only had one instructor that did this, but at the same time, that's where the line is drawn.  I'll speak to him casually when we're discussing non-serious matters, and I'll even slug back a few rounds of beer when my fellow instructors and the chief instructor goes out for a few.  We'll crack some jokes here and there, so it's not an imposing thing.  Still, though, if he wants to be addressed by the title, then there's no argument from me.  

Now, if a senior instructor does not say anything, as to how he wishes to be addressed, I'll still use the title outside of the dojo, until he either tells me that I shouldn't use the title anymore.  The way I see it, it's simply best to err on the side of caution. 

If a senior instructor says that we can call him by his first name outside of the dojo, then I'll do that if that's what he prefers.  

Which one is the right way?  They can all be correct under specific circumstances.  I've made mental notes of all of the senior instructors that I've trained under, and their preferences, but if I ever forget, or am not 100% sure of their preferences, I'll default to the title.  As I stated earlier, it doesn't hurt to err on the side of caution.

On another note, none of the senior instructors under whom I've trained, have ever insisted that I bow to them outside of the dojo.  I'll still give a small nod of the head when addressing them, regardless of whether titles are used or not.  Maybe it's just habit, since I was required to give a quick nod of the head when addressing all of the other Korean parents when I was a kid.  

My preferences, when dealing with my students, are simple: use the title when inside the dojo or doing dojo-related functions.  If, however, we meet outside of the dojo in a non-dojo related function, then they can call me either by first name, if they're adults, or by my other "title" of Dr. (insert last name here) if they're children.  

If they're friends of mine, they'd better call me by my first name or even by my last name only, or else I'll be grumbling something about how they shouldn't be using titles in a sarcastic manner.


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## arnisador (Nov 2, 2005)

Bowing seems excessive to me. Using "Mr./Ms." and "Sir/Ma'am" should suffice, no?

I'm a Ph.D. so I don't use Dr. except at the college. If my college students run into me in town, I'd expect to be addressed as Mr. That's the general type of reasoning I use in the martial arts--formal and polite, but not dojo etiquette in the supermarket.


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## cali_tkdbruin (Nov 2, 2005)

cali_tkdbruin said:
			
		

> Outside of the dojang I would still address our master instructor as sabumnim or sir. I do it just as a sign of respect since he's shared so much with me and taught me so much about our beloved MA... :asian:



This is sort of like when I was in the military some years back. If I came across some of my superiors, like our division officers, in town going about their business, I was still expected to refer to them as sir/ma'am and show the decorum of respect that was expected of our unit. Not necessarily hand salute while in civies, but still call them sir or ma'am. Anyway, the martial arts are after all military in nature, hence the name MAs right?


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## Maltair (Nov 2, 2005)

My brother told me about a situation:
There was a visiting black belt, she was all of 14 years old, very talented though. In his TKD, they were expected to bow and greet just like in the dojo, very formal school. 
He saw her outside the school once and she was with a bunch of friends, my brother was getting ready to bow and saw the look on her face, he stopped and just said hi, waving his hand.
Later, back in class she said thanxs for not being so formal, that would have really imbarresed me. She's pretty humble about her skills. 
And it does depend on the situation and the person.


----------



## IcemanSK (Nov 10, 2005)

I think "Sir" or "Ma'am" is appropriate. Bowing probably not. My 1st instructor was a Korean guy & it was always "yes sir. No sir" inside & outside or class. Which made trips to the pizza place next door very funny. I was in high school, so it was ingrained very strongly for me. To this day when I meet a Korean adult, its a hard habit to break. There's a Korean man in his early 50's that I box with @ the gym. I always greet him in Korean. We're buddies, & its helped bond us a bit.

With my students, I tell them inside of class is more formal, outside, they don't have to call me, sir. Some still do.


----------



## Drac (Nov 11, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Bowing seems excessive to me. Using "Mr./Ms." and "Sir/Ma'am" should suffice, no?


 
That about sounds right..My first Sensei use to frequent the bar I worked at and I was permitted to use his first name because that's how I was introduced to him..I won't bore you with what happened the one time in the Dojo where I slipped and addressed him by his first name and not Semsei..


----------



## Navarre (Nov 11, 2005)

I had the advantage in that my sensei was also my high school social studies teacher. I started martial arts at 15 but had already had him for regular classes for 2 years. 

So, referring to him as "Mr. __" was already the norm, even outside of school. After a short while though, I sometimes had to stop before I spoke in my social studies class so as not to call him "sensei".


----------



## Sam (Nov 11, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> I had the advantage in that my sensei was also my high school social studies teacher. I started martial arts at 15 but had already had him for regular classes for 2 years.
> 
> So, referring to him as "Mr. __" was already the norm, even outside of school. After a short while though, I sometimes had to stop before I spoke in my social studies class so as not to call him "sensei".


 
WOW!

That's cool. I am actually thinking about doing the same thing - becoming a middle school or high school teacher while teaching at my studio. ( the latter which wont happen for another 2 years or so, and the former, more like 6, but still.)


----------



## Navarre (Nov 11, 2005)

Sam, I think that's wonderful. I also have a degree to teach grades 5-college but fate took me in a different direction.

I think many of the qualities that make us true martial artists also lend themselves to teaching in general.  The development of self, refusal to accept boundaries, and ability to alter perspective to approach a situation with confidence are all abilities young people need. 

My sensei, in his role as my social studies teacher, was the very first person to regard me as a vital human being. After 13 years of being hated by those who were obligated to raise me, friendless and alone, he spoke to me with dignity and a keen perception.

It took me 2 years of fighting with those who raised me to pay the $10 a month (yeah, that's right; they didn't want to part with 10 dollars for me) to allow me to take karate. I wanted to work a job or something to get the money but they refused that too and I was too beaten down at that point to fight for anything.

But, from the very first class I knew I had found a family at last.  If I had not had the encouragement of my social studies teacher I never would have him as my sensei and my life would have been so terribly dark and different.

If you are dedicated to being a true teacher, not of lesson plans but of life's lesson, then you are a wonderful person. I hope you too can reach many young people in your lifetime and make their world a better place too.


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Nov 11, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> Sam, I think that's wonderful. I also have a degree to teach grades 5-college but fate took me in a different direction.
> 
> I think many of the qualities that make us true martial artists also lend themselves to teaching in general. The development of self, refusal to accept boundaries, and ability to alter perspective to approach a situation with confidence are all abilities young people need.
> 
> ...


 
Navarre, that's a great story. It's so good when I hear people who had a hard childhood feel a sense of responsibility to help others as a result of their own experiences. Too many see it as license for their own bad behavior. I'd rep. you, but I'm maxed out!


----------



## Navarre (Nov 12, 2005)

Thank you, Jonathan. I'm only providing my own perspective, perhaps not that different from others here who are less inclined to open up so easily.

I have many times pondered on where my life might have gone without martial arts as my guide. At best I would have remained in the dead world, never seeking to push beyond the emotional limits instilled into me by my "family".

But, I've said elsewhere, I've often felt that the martial arts found me not the other way around. I think there is something inside of the true martial artist that refuses to accept mental defeat. Although the Art cultivates that skill, perhaps the innate power within us would invariably draw us toward a brighter destiny.

In any event, I owe my life and quality thereof, to martial arts and my sensei. I have never forgotten that.  I work hard every day to open the world for all around me by exhibiting all the spirit I have gained from my training.

Thanks again. Sorry to digress from the topic.


----------



## Navarre (Nov 12, 2005)

Yeah, let me try and get back on track.

I don't prefer that my students refer to me as "sensei" out of the dojo. In the dojo it is part of the training to form a disciplined mind and a cohesive class.

Beyond that, I don't need the title to let me know what I have or have not achieved. I am a unique individual, beyond a simple title. I prefer to be addressed as one by those in my true family.

Of course I understand why others may see it differently. It truly is a matter of your instructor's preference.


----------



## autumn1973 (Nov 14, 2005)

Heck, I don't even really know what to call the older instructor _in_ class so I don't address him by anything (I wonder if he notices this). I was told by other students NOT to call him sensei, that he does not like it, so I don't go there. If I saw him on the street I would say Hi, as I address people I know from the bingo hall and such. I should actually go out on a limb and ask him how he thinks he should be addressed. He seems to be pretty easygoing so probably would not want any "Your Highness" type greeting anyway.

The younger one (younger of the 2 anyway- he is the same age as me) is the one who instructs myself and my daughter most of the time...I address him with his first name and so do all the other students. 
His personality allows for this, I think, he is extremely easy for _me_ to talk with and I certainly don't say that often about anybody, I am the most bashful person in the universe. I can joke around with him, talk football and TV shows, and have even pulled minor pranks on him (paid for one of those just today with many sit-ups though). 

I have actually run into him a couple of times outside of the dojo and just talked to him like any other acquaintance, actually come to think of it he was rather sarcastic both times, he knows thats what I like...I think, heh heh.


----------



## splazzatch (Nov 15, 2005)

I thought I would add an interesting twist to this...My Sensei is also my Pastor so I see him frequently in capacaties other than class. I simply call him Sir or Pastor when in Church and Shihan when I am in class. I am found that to shake hands and lock eyes it's difficutl to describe but I simply shake hands and that mutual respect is there and we both know it.


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## DeLamar.J (Dec 24, 2005)

tkdgirl said:
			
		

> I'm not really a beginner, but I thought this is as good of a place to ask as any. What is the norm in the way of showing respect to your instructor when you just run into them on the street? This happened to me the other day while going to a restaurant- he seemed fine with shaking hands, but someone said in a book, to bow, like you're in class. I know I've had the tendency to bow just because it was habit. I'm curious on what everyone around has to say about it.


When I meet other martial artists, or instructors in public, I shake hands with them while putting my left hand on the top of my forearm. This shows them respect as a martial artist, and keeps low profile. I will not bow in public because that brings alot of unwanted attension to the encounter. 
Its always best to conceal your martial arts knowledge if you can, the instructor realizes this.


----------



## bluemtn (Dec 28, 2005)

autumn1973 said:
			
		

> Heck, I don't even really know what to call the older instructor _in_ class so I don't address him by anything (I wonder if he notices this). I was told by other students NOT to call him sensei, that he does not like it, so I don't go there. If I saw him on the street I would say Hi, as I address people I know from the bingo hall and such. I should actually go out on a limb and ask him how he thinks he should be addressed. He seems to be pretty easygoing so probably would not want any "Your Highness" type greeting anyway.


 
You should definitely ask your head instructor on how he should be addressed by the students.  Personally, I like knowing the "name", and not going around saying (so to speak) "hey you, so-n-so..."  I feel weird doing that.


----------



## Fluffy (Dec 28, 2005)

tkdgirl said:
			
		

> I'm not really a beginner, but I thought this is as good of a place to ask as any. What is the norm in the way of showing respect to your instructor when you just run into them on the street? This happened to me the other day while going to a restaurant- he seemed fine with shaking hands, but someone said in a book, to bow, like you're in class. I know I've had the tendency to bow just because it was habit. I'm curious on what everyone around has to say about it.


 
You need to show them the respect they expect.  That means if you call them Master in the studio, call them master on the street.  I would ask him/her what they expect.  My instructor is "Master Pierce" to me.....though I've known him for 21+ years.......and is "Jack" to my parents, and will be known as Grandmaster to my son.  I think it's up to the instructors them selves.......ask them.

Master Fluffy


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 28, 2005)

DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> When I meet other martial artists, or instructors in public, I shake hands with them while putting my left hand on the top of my forearm. This shows them respect as a martial artist, and keeps low profile. I will not bow in public because that brings alot of unwanted attension to the encounter.
> Its always best to conceal your martial arts knowledge if you can, the instructor realizes this.


 
Whoa!  Your art has a secret handshake!?!


----------



## hongkongfooey (Jan 4, 2006)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Whoa! Your art has a secret handshake!?!


 
And probably a decoder ring!

artyon:


----------



## Sam (Jan 4, 2006)

This actually happened to me last week. He said, "Hey Sam!!"

And I said, "Hey Dan!" (we were across the parking lot from each other)

It would have been weird to shout "Hello Honorable Sensei!" across the Kinko's/Fedex parking lot. Actually, it would be weird for me to say that to him at all, unless I was joking around.


----------



## Henderson (Jan 4, 2006)

Happened to me too about 2 weeks ago in the Wal*Mart parking lot.  Except it was actually my Iaijutsu teacher's teacher.  I probably would have taken a beating if I'd have called him Sensei instead of Jeff.

Frank


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## Seig (Jan 5, 2006)

In EPAK, Mr. Parker laid out in Infinite Insights that all instructors are to be adressed as Sir/Ma'am or Mr./Mrs./Ms. <surname>. I hold to that tradition. When a student of mine has developped a personal relationship outside of the studio, I allow them the use of my given name outside of the studio.


----------



## Drac (Jan 5, 2006)

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> And probably a decoder ring!
> 
> artyon:


 

I want one too....


----------



## bluemtn (Jan 5, 2006)

Drac said:
			
		

> I want one too....


 
Me too- I wonder what the secret password is...


----------



## Navarre (Jan 5, 2006)

tkdgirl said:
			
		

> Me too- I wonder what the secret password is...


 
Don't be fooled. The secret message is "Be sure to drink your Ovaltine."


----------



## green meanie (Jan 5, 2006)

Navarre said:
			
		

> Don't be fooled. The secret message is "Be sure to drink your Ovaltine."


 
LOL That's priceless. :rofl: 

But, I still want a secret decoder ring...


----------



## rziriak (Jan 5, 2006)

I am a purple belt about to receive my blue this Friday.  I've been involved in Kenpo for about 4 years.  2 in Vegas and 2 in Eureka area in California.  Since I changed schools I had to start over again.  Ugh.  However, my instructor is Dan Pribble.  His instructor is Jeff Speakman.  Even though my instructor has let us know we can greet him by name on the street, it is MY decision to greet him with the respect his proficiency deserves.  He will always and forever be, "Mr. Pribble" to me.  I'm grateful he takes the time to share his talents and knowledge with me.  Yes, I pay for it...physically and monetarily.  But it is my decision to attend classes every week.  It is my decision to pay the money and receive the "instruction".  It is my decision to greet my instructor as Mr. Pribble.  He tells us we are his family.  He treats us like family.  Everyone knows they are loved deeply by this caring and generous man.  He does not demand the respect...he has completely, undeniably, irrefutably earned it.

My 2 cents worth.


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## bluemtn (Jan 5, 2006)

Sorry I haven't had the chance to formally greet you- welcome to martial talk.  I feel the same way- I say hi mr... and shake hands.  I'm glad you have that kind of relationship in your dojo.


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## Shrfu_Eric (Jan 5, 2006)

I seen someone said "it's a matter of the choice on the student's behalf".

I think that statement should be switched to ... it's a matter of a the teacher's preference or what is dictated to you by the system.

I bow to my teacher and anyone else in my system. It's not a big long bow ... it's quick one. Our way of showing respect to each other regardless of rank. 

I bow to BB in other systems. I have no trouble in doing that. I respect everyone until they prove they shouldn't deserve any.

I call me teacher Shr fu. His teacher Shr Gung ... etc. I am close friends with my teacher but that is his title and he deserves to be called by that.

My student's call me Shr fu and call him Shr fu Toby... etc down the line.

Eric   ... that's the way I / we do it.


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## hongkongfooey (Jan 5, 2006)

Navarre said:
			
		

> Don't be fooled. The secret message is "Be sure to drink your Ovaltine."




LOL!


----------



## arnisador (Jan 5, 2006)

Shrfu_Eric said:
			
		

> I call me teacher Shr[...]



I want to buy a vowel.


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## Kacey (Jan 5, 2006)

When I first met my instructor, I only saw him in class - and in class, I called him "sir" or Mr. Arnold.  I have been doing that for so long (nearly 19 years) that, while he has told me not to call him Mr. Arnold in public, it would be hard for me to call him Doug - it's just habit and practice.  Do people think it's strange?  Occasionally; my mother once asked me if he HAD a first name, or if it was Arnold (it's hard to tell in this case).  However, I find that I enjoy and appreciate the courtesy inherent in this level of formality.  I know that there are people who think it's silly - but I find that it demonstrates respect, as in this quote from William Tuning's novel Fuzzy Bones:

"I've noticed,", Holloway said to Helton, "that you don't 'sir' very many people, Phil."
"Only the ones I respect a lot - sir," Helton said.
​ While it is certainly possible to be outwardly courteous to someone you dislike or do not respect, it is, in my opinion, a sign of respect to address some with more formality than would otherwise be used in a particular situation.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jan 5, 2006)

OK, so what if you run into your instructor at the local cat house? 
Do you bow? 
Do you salute and say "Honorable Sensei!" 
Do you loudly greet them with "HELLO Mr. <Name Here>, SIR!" 
Please discuss.


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## BrandiJo (Jan 6, 2006)

with my inst if we arnt in class we are allowed to call them by their first names, but i normaly stick with Mr and Mrs unless its one of my school sponserd events (pot luck BBQ type thing)


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## Jonathan Randall (Jan 6, 2006)

Fluffy said:
			
		

> You need to show them the respect they expect. That means if you call them Master in the studio, call them master on the street. I would ask him/her what they expect. My instructor is "Master Pierce" to me.....though I've known him for 21+ years.......and is "Jack" to my parents, and will be known as Grandmaster to my son. I think it's up to the instructors them selves.......ask them.
> 
> Master Fluffy


 
Whoa! A Mr. Jack Pierce who taught TKD in Sacramento, California during the early 1980's and also held a Tang Soo Do dan? If so, he was briefly one of my instructors, although he left to open another school around the time that I started. I guess he would be a master now. He was already close back then.


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Jan 6, 2006)

Seig said:
			
		

> In EPAK, Mr. Parker laid out in Infinite Insights that all instructors are to be adressed as Sir/Ma'am or Mr./Mrs./Ms. <surname>. I hold to that tradition. When a student of mine has developped a personal relationship outside of the studio, I allow them the use of my given name outside of the studio.


 
That's probably the best and most respectful policy. We are training in the martial arts and our training needs to be about more than just fighting. Respect and discipline are just as important; perhaps more so, in fact, because many preventable altercations are caused by simple disrespect.


----------



## Ceicei (Jan 6, 2006)

Outside of the dojo, I call my instructor by his first name since we are also friends.  When in the dojo, it is Mr. (Surname).  When I am talking to my children about him, both inside and outside of dojo, I will refer to him as Mr. (Surname).  He is their instructor too, so I want my children to maintain the respect and manners for adults.

- Ceicei


----------



## arnisador (Jan 6, 2006)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> OK, so what if you run into your instructor at the local cat house?



Eh, I don't even like cats.

I've known my arnis instructor since high school, so it takes an extra mental effort to say "Mr. so-and-so" in class. He refers to me the same way (or "Dr. so-and-so" though I only use that at the college), so it's fair...but I need to think about it.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jan 6, 2006)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> OK, so what if you run into your instructor at the local cat house?
> Do you bow?
> Do you salute and say "Honorable Sensei!"
> Do you loudly greet them with "HELLO Mr. <Name Here>, SIR!"
> Please discuss.



I was in an entertainment house once and a well known instructor told me to use his first name, as I would scare away the entertainment with titles.

After that like I said before, on the matts of training floor, Sir or official title, yet off the matts, it was first name basis. Although when others were around who did not have a personal relationship like I did, meaning it was different, Iwoudl use sir so as not to cause them heart ache or to get upset.


----------



## Sam (Jan 6, 2006)

what the hell is a cat house?


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jan 6, 2006)

Sam said:
			
		

> what the hell is a cat house?


 Bordello.


----------



## Drac (Jan 6, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> LOL That's priceless. :rofl:
> 
> But, I still want a secret decoder ring...


 
LMAO..Maybe you can buy one on e-Bay..They sell everything else there..


----------



## Rick Wade (Jan 6, 2006)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> OK, so what if you run into your instructor at the local cat house?
> Do you bow?
> Do you salute and say "Honorable Sensei!"
> Do you loudly greet them with "HELLO Mr. <Name Here>, SIR!"
> Please discuss.


 
I usually ask him if he needs a ride home it looks like he has been drinking to much.

R/
Rick


----------



## green meanie (Jan 6, 2006)

Drac said:
			
		

> LMAO..Maybe you can buy one on e-Bay..They sell everything else there..


 
We're in luck. 

Set of 2: $5.75
Set of 10: $ 25.00

http://search.ebay.com//search/search.dll?from=R40&satitle=Secret+Decoder+Ring


----------



## Drac (Jan 6, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> We're in luck.
> 
> Set of 2: $5.75
> Set of 10: $ 25.00
> ...


 
With my luck there will be an attached notice saying "Some Assembly Required" and "Batteries Not Included"..


----------



## Sam (Jan 6, 2006)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Bordello.



I had to look that up.

Anyway, my intructor's married...to a model.

It'd never happen.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jan 6, 2006)

Sam said:
			
		

> I had to look that up.
> 
> Anyway, my intructor's married...to a model.
> 
> It'd never happen.


 
Really? Have you ever heard of Hugh Grant and Elizabeth Hurley


----------



## Rick Wade (Jan 6, 2006)

Sam said:
			
		

> I had to look that up.
> 
> Anyway, my intructor's married...to a model.
> 
> It'd never happen.


 
Ah to be young again and know how the world runs.  it must be great.

Sam I used to have a saying when I was a younger man.  "I will grow old but I will never grow up."  Then one day I accidentally grew up.  

OFK was just kidding as was I.

I am sure instructor is a upstanding individual.
A man can be married to the most beautiful woman in the world but she is still a woman and he is still a man.

V/R

Rick


----------



## jsdduke (Jan 6, 2006)

Maybe my opinion is a little old fashioned,but in light of that the question it's  a matter of respect. Do you call your school teacher,priest,reverend,mayor or President by their first name? Is'nt your instructor a teacher.For that matter weren't your parents,grandparents,aunts and uncles the same,yet you woudn't call them by their first name,would you? Respect is earned not implied and don't they deserve respect if warrented? Just a thought.


----------



## Sam (Jan 6, 2006)

times are a-changing.

I had more than one teacher in high school (which technically I should still be in) who we could  call by their first name

and many more in college, now.


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Jan 6, 2006)

Sam said:
			
		

> times are a-changing.
> 
> I had more than one teacher in high school (which technically I should still be in) who we could call by their first name
> 
> and many more in college, now.


 
Oh, my goodness. When I was in school, calling a teacher or administrator by their first name would likely put you before the "board" of education. I liked college better.


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Jan 6, 2006)

Sam said:
			
		

> times are a-changing.
> 
> I had more than one teacher in high school (*which technically I should still be in*)


 
You'll learn more in your college classes. I left high school after my junior year and went to the university instead. Better textbooks, more material covered, and no detention for cutting class.


----------



## BrandiJo (Jan 7, 2006)

i have many profs i call by first name, and when i was in high school i had a few but it not as common as college


----------



## arnisador (Jan 7, 2006)

When I taught in California many students would assume (incorrectly) they could call me by my first name, but on the East Coast everyone would use Dr. So-and-So. It's a cultural thing!


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jan 7, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> When I taught in California many students would assume (incorrectly) they could call me by my first name, but on the East Coast everyone would use Dr. So-and-So. It's a cultural thing!



I can see that. 

Like I said, in class or on school grounds it was Dr or Professor. Even the beer drinking "Bud Man - Lab Coat" Chem instructor I had was Dr in the bar, as we referred to that as the extension lab.  Had to do lots of research. 

Yet, in a store or what have you, it depends upon the relationship. If it is jsut a teaching relations at a university, I would call them Dr or Mr(s) *lastname* and move on. For an instructor of Martial Arts, that I did not train with, even if I knew their Rank and or Title, I woudl call them Mr(s) *lastname* as well. If they were friends then it was first name basis. 

Part of this is because, I do not want to draw attention to their rank or title in a public place, in case they are practicing their own self defense of not advertising who they are. 

I have a friend from High School, I walked into his place, and asked for him by first name. This person looked at me like I as crazy there was no one there with that name. So I said first and last name, and then they said oh you mean, "Master *lastname*". I smiled and said, "Yes, and I apologize for not being clear." My friend was not upset, he just smiled. Most of his students only knew him by his martial arts rank and title. 

No harm no foul. 

So I think it depends upon the relationship you have with the instructor.


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Jan 7, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> When I taught in California many students would assume (incorrectly) they could call me by my first name, but on the East Coast everyone would use Dr. So-and-So. It's a cultural thing!


 
Good for you! Respect doesn't cost anything and I think that it would be great if we could return to some of the formality and courtesy that we had in the 1950's while yet retaining the advances made against race and sexual discrimination.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jan 7, 2006)

Some yes but not all I think it was a little over done at times back then.  Still I bow to my old instructor if and when I see him and I don't care where i am.


----------



## IcemanSK (Jan 8, 2006)

I still call my grad school mentor, "Dr Tuttle", even tho he signs his emails, "Bob". I asked him once if he wanted me to lighten up & call him Bob. I got no response. I think it was an oversight...it was a long email.

There were a lot of profs. we called by their 1st names. And a few that it would never occur to us to do so...Cuz we all respected them too much. (Regardless if they would have said it was ok.)


----------



## bluemtn (Jan 8, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> We're in luck.
> 
> Set of 2: $5.75
> Set of 10: $ 25.00
> ...


 
Maybe we should have martial talk decoder rings, a secret password, and a secret handshake!  Anyone up for it?


----------



## bluemtn (Jan 8, 2006)

Around here, everyone calls their instructors by whatever they want to be called.  Either they tell you, or you ask, or you assume.  Again- cultural thing?  I'm not very close to a "big city"- except for DC, etc., and there are a lot of commuters.  Basically I live in a DC "bedroom" community.


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Jan 8, 2006)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Some yes but not all I think it was a little over done at times back then. Still I bow to my old instructor if and when I see him and I don't care where i am.


 
Perhaps we need a comfortable middle? Something between the super formality of the 40's and 50's and today's wearing of pants without belts that need to be pulled up about 8 inches, and greetings to elders such as Yo, Bob, what's kickin'?


----------



## Kacey (Jan 10, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Perhaps we need a comfortable middle? Something between the super formality of the 40's and 50's and today's wearing of pants without belts that need to be pulled up about 8 inches, and greetings to elders such as Yo, Bob, what's kickin'?



For myself, I would rather start polite/formal and be asked to be more casual than start too casual - few people are offended by courtesy, but once someone has been addressed in a familiar manner, it can be hard to for them to ask for a more formal address, and often embarrassing.


----------



## bluemtn (Jan 11, 2006)

I agree- it's best to start a bit more formal and change it if told different.


----------



## kenpo0324 (Jan 11, 2006)

My Instructor and I Call each other by our first Names, Outside of the School or Even in the School.


----------



## AceHBK (Jan 30, 2006)

Me and my Master have a obi-wan/anakin thing going on so I always call him Master in and out of class.
Hell we even hit a bar and stuff like that together. *no homo*
I was his only adult student for a long time when he first opened up his business so it is more of a big brother lil brother type of thing.
There is respect on both parts.


----------



## Carol (Jan 30, 2006)

One or my instructors was talking about a couple of thing in class (I think the subject was respect, but not sure) and mentioned in passing that we should refer to him by his last name, not by his first name.  We also had a lot of teens in class that day, which was probably why he mentioned it.

I'd generally prefer to be too formal rather than too casual.


----------



## Tony (Jan 31, 2006)

Well because we call our sifu by his first name its not so hard to use it when we see him out of training. BUt we all have respect for him and respect isn't always about calling someone by their title.


----------



## Zarnyk (Feb 24, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> you should be able to talk to your instructor outside of class the same way you would speak to any other acquaintance.
> i think it is a ridiculous display of ego when a martial arts teacher wants to be referred to as sensei or master outside of class, yes, this does happen.


 
Very true and totally agree.  I so glad that my Sifu doesn't have an ego problem like that.  And because he doesn't, he'll always be Sifu in or out of class.


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## Hand Sword (Feb 28, 2006)

From my experience, I've only run into my instructor outside the dojo 3 times. Each time I walked over to greet him with a smile and a respectful nod of the head, or quiet hello. From there he would take over the conversation, introducing me to his friends, or asking "how are you?" etc...


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## funnytiger (Feb 28, 2006)

My experience seems a bit different then a lot of the responses I read. Okay, well actually the ones on the first couple pages, 10 pages is a lot to swallow at nearly 9:30 in the AM!

I call my sifu, Sifu. In class, out of class wherever. Its kind of like calling my mother 'mom'. I would never call her by her first name because I think that's disrespectful. He has never actually said, "Call me Sifu outside of class." We just kind of do.

I see Sifu out of class all the time. He likes to hang out with us when we go out to eat after class, or have a party. 

We don't always salute in public, but we do so on occassion depending on the situation. My school goes by a family structure. So everyone is a brother or sister. We don't call each other 'brother' or 'sister' even in class, but we still show the respect we would as if we were in class. The term 'Sifu' does translate to being "father/teacher". I guess we take that pretty seriously.

And, scene.


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 6, 2006)

Having been an instructor for 8 years I find a weird paradox in my own thinking on this.

First, I'm quite informal off the mats.  If I meet somebody on the street, I shake their hands.  I feel vaguely uncomfortable if somebody bows or even uses my title -- like I'm putting on airs.

On the other hand, if I bump into one of my instructors on the street I'm bowing all over myself and saying sir this and sensei that.  I've known my instructor for 14 years and still can't bring myself to call him by his first name.

On the other other hand, I also realize that even though formality is unimportant to me, it's often quite important to my students that they greet and treat me formally.  

No conclusions here today.  Just thoughts.

Peace & Strength,

Jason Brick


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## stone_dragone (Jun 4, 2006)

My instructor and I have more of a Father-adult son relationship than a teacher-student relationship.  Whenever I return home, I render him a formal seated bow and when I leave...in between, such as when we go out on saturday nights, there is a slight bow, almost a nod, and then either a friendly punch or hug...and then we proceed to get fershnickered as our wives talk like a mother-daughter relationship and make fun of us.


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## Martial Tucker (Jun 4, 2006)

stone_dragone said:
			
		

> My instructor and I have more of a Father-adult son relationship than a teacher-student relationship.  Whenever I return home, I render him a formal seated bow and when I leave...in between, such as when we go out on saturday nights, there is a slight bow, almost a nod, and then either a friendly punch or hug...and then we proceed to get fershnickered as our wives talk like a mother-daughter relationship and make fun of us.




On the mat : Sir, Yes Sir.....

Off the mat : Hey, have time for a pint or two?...


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## bluemtn (Jun 4, 2006)

Thanks everyone on your responses!  It's wonderful to see how a lot of you have a close "relationship"!  My instructor just touched (again) on this subject last week.  In public, a simple handshake and Mr... does fine.  Boy, does he talk!  I say that because I'm not the most talkative person in the world (not shy, just semi- quiet).


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## Swordlady (Jun 4, 2006)

Maybe I'm being a *little* too formal, but if I ever met my instructor on the street, I would still call him "Sensei".  He is still my instructor whether we're in the dojo or not.  Some of my dojo mates call him by his first name, but I'm simply not comfortable with that level of informality.


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## IcemanSK (Jun 5, 2006)

I teach at the community center where I work. On the mat, I tell them they call me Mr. Jensen or sir. Off the mat, its Tom because everyone else at the center is called by their 1st name. I tell them that this is not the case for many MA instructors. 

I call mine Grandmaster Sell or sir, all the time. And that's ok with me. But, now that I think about it, he always calls me Mr. Jensen, also. He certainly knows my 1st name, but he chooses to show respect to me in this way. It may be formal, but its reciprical (sp?).


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## matt.m (Jun 5, 2006)

With my dads black belt students who I have known since 2nd grade or jr. high, I am 32 now...just threw that out as a point of reference, I will call them by name when not in class.  That is the way it has always been.  However, dads peers I will call Mr. or Mrs. etc.

It is just a point of reference.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 6, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i think it is a ridiculous display of ego when a martial arts teacher wants to be referred to as sensei or master outside of class, yes, this does happen.


There are way to many like this and I won't give into that that unless I have a great respect for the person.  I just sent a email out to my students parents talking about the use of Master and how it really makes my skin crawl.


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## trueaspirer (Jun 7, 2006)

If you know your instructor well, do what you think he would like you to do. But if you are not sure at all, try a small bow. See how he takes it. You can always shake his hand afterwards. That still works fine after bowing. Also another idea is to bow while shaking. That's what we do for semi-formal things at our dojang.

G'luck


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## fnorfurfoot (Jun 8, 2006)

It would depend on what kind of person your instructor is.  For my first instructor, I would just call him by his name.  That school wasn't overly formal.  My second instructor was called Kyoshi even by his own children and his wife, so calling him that seemed natural.  I prefer to be called by my own name with my adult students.  The children either call me Mr. French or Sensei.


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## BigMike (Jun 21, 2006)

In my experience, my American born teachers are pretty casual.  They don't like to advertise that they're Artists, so I don't call them Sensei or Sir when people are around.  I've done it outside of class when nobody is around though.  If I have people with me, I'll introduce them as Mr. so and so and leave it at that.

I couldn't refer to my Japanese born teachers by their first names.  (One because I didn't know how to pronounce it.)  But it never occurred to me to try.  They were just Sensei, and a bow of the neck was par for the course when we saw each other away from MA activities.

Big Mike


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## Cirdan (Jun 21, 2006)

If I met any of my instrutors outside the Dojo I would call them by their first name. An exception being if I met the national head of the Kobudo school I trained with earlier. Then I would definately use Sensei unless told otherwise.


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