# Kung Fu is CRAP?



## leehoicheun (Apr 23, 2003)

Kung Fu is CRAP?
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 I fancy myself to be a pretty humble person. I like to maintain this state of mind because it keeps me hungry and never allows me to become arrogant. But.... I am confident in my skills and train constantly to maintain and further them.

Today a new student of mine (Frank) told me he had a funny story for me after class. We had a great session and while everyone was gearing up to go home he proceeded to tell me his story. It's goes a little something like this.

A friend of his has a son who is around 19 years old. This young adult has been going to a Karate school here in Syracuse called Tearny's. The father asked Frank about our Wing Chun school. Frank told him what he thought of our training open and honestly. The father told Frank that the reason the young man wants to leave Tearny's is because he keeps beating up his instructors and that he feels he hasn't learned a thing other then the fact that the school he is in now works in patterns and can't deal with unpredictable situations. He heard about the effectiveness of Wing Chun and wants to check us out. Frank told him that he was welcome.... and he is..... to come here and watch our class. Well...... the young man, obviously excited, told his instructor at Tearny's that he was looking into joining our school. The Tearny's instructor replied with this, *"You don't want to do that Kung Fu..... it's CRAP!"* 

When I was told this story I didn't get mad..... not even slightly. It actually amused me..... and reconfirmed something that I have known for over twenty years. That the MacDonald's (fast food) like martial art studios truly live up to their reputation. This so called "master" showed his complete and total ignorance with that statement. As stated before, I myself stay humble....and never bad mouth ANY style of martial art. I honestly feel that anyone who does is compensating for something.

on another note. A few months ago a student of mine (Scott) told me something that tickled me inside. Scott has been training at another martial art school.... for about 2 1/2 years. Scott at the time had only taken 3 lessons with me. He was taught some very basic Wing Chun principles like guard the center, using two hands at the same time to deflect and strike simultaneously, not fighting force with force and fighting on the blind side. He was also taught a very VERY simple technique called Lop Da (grabbing hand punch) using a half front step. All of the White sashes (1st level) know these things and apply them in constant drills. Well to make a long story short.... Scott went to his other school on "sparring day" and proceeded to beat EVERYONE in his class.... even some of the brown and black belts using what he learned with us. Everyone in his school was shocked... and curious. They wanted to know where he learned these skills. He openly said "The Wing Chun Academy". Now you might think that his master got mad.... but he didn't. He put his hand on Scott's shoulder, gave a wink and a smile and said  *"Well done, very good."  *  and continued class. 

This shows two complete extremes. on one hand we have an arrogant school that teaches people to be superior and unchanging.... and the other, a school that is open and honest and accepting to new points of view.

thanks for reading, 

Ami To Fo


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## arnisador (Apr 23, 2003)

I studied Goju-Ryu in Syracuse with Vinnie Grace many years ago--fantastic and very open instructor.

I also briefly studied with the CNY Aikido group and thought very highly of them.


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## gravity (Apr 23, 2003)

The majority of martial artist are very proud of their system and school and in some instances believe other arts are inferior. My brother did a bit of Jujitsu and after awhile felt it wasn't for him, he spoke to a wing chun instructor and when he mentioned he learned a bit of Jujitsu the instructor mumbled a "hmmpp" in a negative manner. 

I supose the best martial arts instructors are the ones who are open minded about different arts while at the same time conscious about having a solid base system and not simply mixing and matching techniques. My Kenpo instructor was very cool when I mentioned I learned Ju JItsu before. In fact he has in the past; invited a Wing Chun instructor to demonstate Chi Sao and a FMA instructor to demonstate weapon defenses. I'd rather have an instructor who is aware of his limitations and isn't afraid to say so then one who is under the illusion he can do it all. 

I think if you are honest with your students (I'm a student) you are more likely to showcase the merits of your system and school and as a result be more likely to retain students.


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## leehoicheun (Apr 23, 2003)

My oldest and dearest friend (known eachother 30 years) is the owner of a very successful Kenpo school in the Bronx NY. He has invited me many times to do seminars on Chi Sau and more. He is open minded and works hard to bring the best to his students. I have heard of Wing Chun people turning their nose up to other systems. This is arrogance and ignorance. 

Here's the cool thing....... very high level and skilled masters almost 99% of the time are cool with other styles. It's the not so good, wanna be masters that resort to bad mouthing. 

I personally think Ju-Jitsu is a great art. Like I always say... *"It's not the Martial Art, but rather the Martial Artist that makes it great."* 

have agreat day


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## Kope (Apr 23, 2003)

My sifu is sort of amusing with regard to other martial arts. 

He makes it a point that we should never degrade another art.

Then proceeds to explain the differences between how our style would handle a particular type of attack versus how JKD would do it with the obvious implication that JKD is inferior.

I don't think he means to say this -- and would never do so outright. He's trying to show the differences between the styles and he is rightly proud of our own heritage. But it's amusing as can be when he does it right after warning a student to not disparage another art


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## Tony (Mar 1, 2004)

Just been reading this post and found it very interesting! If I had more time I would love to learn more Martial Arts just to get and all round knowledge!
What good is it to say one Martial Art is better than other, if it were true we would all be learning the same Art and there would be no need for any others!
There are always limits to each Art, but then again Martial Arts is more than just fighting! I would love to study Wing Chun myself, although in my system we have touched upon some of the basic principles! But at this present moment I don't want to confuse myself! We do from time to time practice Chi sau and other sensitivity training!
My Sifu has told us never told us never to underestimate anyone or any Art for that matter!


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## ShaolinWolf (Mar 1, 2004)

Yeah, My instructor is open to any Martial Art. I think it's all a matter of whether you can use the style in self-defense. I'm open to just about any Martial Art. We teach at my ATA school the full TKD cirriculum, then on the side we teach Judo/Jujitsu/Grappling, Aikido, some Hapkido, a little Kick-boxing, and maybe something else every once in a while. Tai chi chuan is available at some of the other schools, but my instructors don't use it, well not yet. 

We have seminars at the tournaments and at the school for alot of different types of weapons, even outside of ATA weapons. ATA is not just TKD but a few other arts for external use.


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## Mwolfe (Mar 1, 2004)

The only time I'll say Kung Fu is crap when they try to tell me about their anti grappling manuevers.  I always get a good laugh about that stuff.


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## Zepp (Mar 1, 2004)

Mwolfe said:
			
		

> The only time I'll say Kung Fu is crap when they try to tell me about their anti grappling manuevers.  I always get a good laugh about that stuff.



Doesn't that depend on the particular style of Kung Fu?


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## Mwolfe (Mar 2, 2004)

Doesn't matter what style.  There is no anti-grappling manuevers.  It's stupid to say that to combat the grappler phenomenon.

Every demo I've seen (I've seen a few), they always show these techniques.  They do not work.  Anway, I don't want to take the thread more off topic than it has been.


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## KennethKu (Mar 2, 2004)

Mwolfe said:
			
		

> Doesn't matter what style.  There is no anti-grappling manuevers.  It's stupid to say that to combat the grappler phenomenon.
> 
> Every demo I've seen (I've seen a few), they always show these techniques.  They do not work.  Anway, I don't want to take the thread more off topic than it has been.



That only shows what you have witnessed may be ineffective. However, it does not prove your statement,"There is no anti-grappling manuevers.  It's stupid to say that to combat the grappler phenomenon." is valid.   

FYI, the Gracies do teach anti-grappling manuevers. Of course, one may simply argue that is BJJ and not KungFu. Oh well....


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## bart (Mar 2, 2004)

_
Originally Posted by Mwolfe
The only time I'll say Kung Fu is crap when they try to tell me about their anti grappling manuevers. I always get a good laugh about that stuff.
....Doesn't matter what style. There is no anti-grappling manuevers. It's stupid to say that to combat the grappler phenomenon.
...Every demo I've seen (I've seen a few), they always show these techniques. They do not work. 
_ 

Hmmm...interesting thought. I would have to say that statement is wrong. There are a lot of good moves to counter grappling, mostly they have to do with controlling distance and then doing vital strikes to vulnerable areas on the approach. Another method is to change venue to an area that environmentally is not good for grappling. 

Some of the stuff you've seen probably is hokey, a lot is. I've seen some real stinkers myself. I think the biggest mistake that non-grapplers do when dealing with grapplers is they attempt to grapple as well. When that's not your specialty, you're not going to outperform somebody who works on that almost exclusively. If you're not a grappler, don't play the grappling game. Play the game that you're good at.  Most likely that's exactly what the kung fu types you saw did NOT do, and thus in your opinion, the technique didn't work and made you "laugh".

Dealing with grapplers is not easy, but then again it's never easy to fight a skilled person.


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## loki09789 (Mar 3, 2004)

The original post reminds me of a quote my friend is fond of:

Skills are like tools, if all you have is a hammer, you can only drive nails.  Martial artist system/art arrogance is petty, and counter to any successful combatives tradition.  Pride, self confidence are good, arrogance is deadly.

Paul M


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## 7starmantis (Mar 10, 2004)

People tend to write off as useless or ineffective, those things they truly do not understand. It happens outside of MA as much as it does inside. Its a small minded human tendency that I believe we all have a tendency towards. The difference being that with an open mind you stop yourself from falling into that trap and learn a little about it before writing it off. In kung fu this happens alot because people don't truly understand it at all. Thats ok though, kung fu is not for everyone.


7sm


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## loki09789 (Mar 10, 2004)

I think, too, the territorialism/combatives nature of martial training can feed this self inflated status of 'your art' in the small minded person if the personal/spiritual goals of training are not clearly stated along with the competetive/combative goals.

I read in a website for sports that confidence was respect without fear.  I like the sound of that because it allows the person to have a level of belief in himself and his art/training BUT a healthy view of other arts as well.


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## leehoicheun (Apr 28, 2004)

Mwolfe said:
			
		

> The only time I'll say Kung Fu is crap when they try to tell me about their anti grappling manuevers.  I always get a good laugh about that stuff.



Mwolfe.... I surprised at you. I thought you were smarter then this. 

Let me tell you a little story about a Kung Fu friend of mine. He was at a BJJ school visiting the instructor who is a friend of his. They were talking about ways to pass thr gaurd and so on. The instructor asked my friend to get on the floor and then asked one of his sneior students to get on top of him. My friend asked _"I can do anything I want?"_ The instructor replied with a nod of the head. As soon as they said go.... *WHAM!!!!!!* My friend nailed the guy in the groin. Needless to say.... the senior BJJ student had abolutely NO FIGHT left in him to do ANYTHING other then crumble up into a ball clenching his now very sore groin. 

Moral of the storry....... there is INDEED anti-grappling technique. It all depends on the RULES being placed into effect at the moment. If you are fighting a tournement style fight where rules do not allow that sort of thing then grapplers are tough to deal with. But in a no rules situation Im just as comfortable on the ground as I am on my feet. 

second story......... one of my fellow instructors, a man certified in Jun Fan/ Jeet Kune Do, Kali-escrima and BJJ once walked in while I was giving a ground fighting lesson. Now mind you, my ground fighting is about real life fighting.... NOT the rules infested UFC stuff. He watched for a while and knows that I welcome his input. He started using his vast knowledge of ground fighting to prove that what I was teaching had merrit. Simply because we have no rules placed on us. He showed the class VERY effective BJJ locks, chokes and so on and then asked me to "do what I do" against these various positions. Of course I didn't injure him in any way but I showed the class how I could get out of each by fighting for survival like an animal. Biting, clawing, elbows, head butts.... you name it...... survival is the name of the game. 

I am a Kung Fu man. And I proudly say.......I anti-grapple.  :boing2:


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## Sapper6 (Apr 30, 2004)

Mwolfe said:
			
		

> Doesn't matter what style.  There is no anti-grappling manuevers.  It's stupid to say that to combat the grappler phenomenon.
> 
> Every demo I've seen (I've seen a few), they always show these techniques.  They do not work.  Anway, I don't want to take the thread more off topic than it has been.



im gonna take a wild guess and say that you must be a ground-fighter...?  if so, that just proves my theory that every grappler/ground fighter feels they are invincible and that no other system or style could stand-up against them.

regardless if you are or not, it shows your ignorance to make such a statement about something you know nothing about.

so you saw a couple of demos and know everything there is to know about Kung-Fu...?  gimmie a break...


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## sumdumguy (May 7, 2004)

This is a great post!
I am not personally a Kung-Fu man, but have enjoyed some demonstrations and such over the past 20+ yrs. I do have a grappling story that I think fits in.
    One of my students, lives in Hawaii and was over to the mainland for school and training with me. On one of his trips back the the Island he had the opportunity to work out with some grapplers at their school. Now, mind you I had not taught him very much about actually grappling but more so about tools of locking and choking. As he contested with the various levels of students in the school he was told repeatedly "you can't do that". He was only taking advantage of some the smaller locks and such that he had been taught through techniques and various lessons that he had. I had to laugh when he told me the story, because he ended up besting all but one of the people he had contested with. In his mind there where no limitations to what he could or couldn't do, from finger locks to biting he was using all the tools in his tool box.... 
Just a another funny story.
 :asian:


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## sumdumguy (May 7, 2004)

Incidently,
I don't believe that any system Is crap, Like another poster has stated previously, it is the person not the system. I have met some very effective Kung-fu stylists. On the flip side I have seen some bad ones. Holds true with all systems.
 :asian:


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## Black Tiger Fist (Jul 11, 2004)

Mwolfe said:
			
		

> Doesn't matter what style. There is no anti-grappling manuevers. It's stupid to say that to combat the grappler phenomenon.
> 
> Every demo I've seen (I've seen a few), they always show these techniques. They do not work. Anway, I don't want to take the thread more off topic than it has been.


You can always tell ppl that come from a grappling background ,they always say something like this.:rofl:

Grappling is alot older than any other martial art out there ,so to make that statement is showing ignorance to martial arts. 

The reason grappling hit the martial arts world by storm some yrs back is very simple. Many styles had simply stop training or preparing for grapplers. The Mongolians were renowned for their grappling ,so grappling was nothing new to Traditional Chinese martial Arts.

The problem was that strikers became so good at striking and avoiding grapplers grasp that many grapplers began to focus on striking. If everyone is striking why waste time training on grappling?  So that's what happened many striking styles began to focus only on other striking arts.

It's a never ending cycle.

Striking arts and grappling arts have been around since hand to hand combat started ,what would make anyone think striking does not have an answer to grappling? 

If that was the case there would be no striking arts everyone would be grappling.

jeff


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## hedgehogey (Jul 11, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> Hmmm...interesting thought. I would have to say that statement is wrong. There are a lot of good moves to counter grappling, mostly they have to do with controlling distance and then doing vital strikes to vulnerable areas on the approach. Another method is to change venue to an area that environmentally is not good for grappling.


Hold on. I have nothing against kung fu, but "controlling distance and then doing vital strikes to vulnerable areas" does not work, unless by that you mean sprawling, establishing a neck clinch then doing multiple skip knees.

And if by "change venue" you mean fight in the broken glass, that's an even worse idea. If I fail a shot the worst I get is a scraped knee (only if i'm wearing shorts). If I get a succesful shot, you are lying on the broken glass etc.



> Some of the stuff you've seen probably is hokey, a lot is. I've seen some real stinkers myself. I think the biggest mistake that non-grapplers do when dealing with grapplers is they attempt to grapple as well.


Most of the time, you don't have a choice! If I ANY part of you, we are automaticaly grappling! 



> When that's not your specialty, you're not going to outperform somebody who works on that almost exclusively. If you're not a grappler, don't play the grappling game. Play the game that you're good at. Most likely that's exactly what the kung fu types you saw did NOT do, and thus in your opinion, the technique didn't work and made you "laugh".[/quotes]
> 
> So, when are we gonna see this stuff on the anything goes circuit? Cause "strikes to vital areas" are allowed in almost every vale tudo event and the gracie challenge. You could make a lot of money that way.
> 
> ...


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## leehoicheun (Jul 11, 2004)

sorry to inform you but... you are wrong. 

vital strikes are NOT ALLOWED in Val Tudo or any other sport competition. If they were.... a lot of eyes would be gone and throats ruptured. Get real man.......  


I am not saying that grappling skills are not good but from EXPERIENCE I can tell you that I am an anti-grappler. I will make sure I dont go to the ground.... but here's the twist....... I train for the ground as well. Just because I dont want to be there doesn't mean I'm not skilled at it. 

I hear that BS all the time "why aren't you guys fighting in k-1 or pride or whatever." Truth be known...... the arts that are suited for those COMPETITIONS (that right... they are sports competitions) are the grapplers and the Thai boxers. Do I have anything against them???  heck no.... I love those arts..... but I also know that in a TRUE no holds barred fight that vital strikes work........ why?   because I have used them with great success on THE STREET..... not in a ring.

get real man.


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## Kevin Walker (Jul 12, 2004)

NO, Kung Fu is one of the few fully integrated and effective fighting systems left on the planet.  I have a lot of respect for Chinese Kung Fu, probably more than for Karate or Tae Kwon Do, as a versitile and adaptable method of fighting.

Kung Fu is capable of adapting to more awkward fighting situations than most other systems I've observed.  Kung Fu also contains a philosophy, lacking in a lot of other martial arts, that allows the kung fu practitioner to cope with life situations other than combat.

What weapons training is inherent in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu?  How does Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu cope on a battlefield?  Both kung fu and classical jiu-jitsu are capable of surviving and thriving on a battlefield, which is where they evolved in the first place.

Kung Fu is in no danger of dissapating or becoming extinct anytime soon.


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## leehoicheun (Jul 12, 2004)

look at incredible grapplers like Eric Paulson. There is no denyng that he is effective in the ring. But here's a funny bit of info for you jar head grapplers who think you have all the answers. He is also a fully certified instructor in Jeet Kune Do under Guru Dan Inosanto, that's right.... a Kung Fu based concept. Eric Paulson knows the difference between the ring and the street. Do you?

we had an indicent here recently that was so funny I had to turn my head. A gentleman in our area who owns a martial arts school was talking about the superiority of grappling against traditional martial arts, boxing and so on. It just so happened there was a friend of ours observing who was a champion ametaur boxer (middle weight class). The boxer disagreed and the grappling instructor invited him to the mat for a friendly sparring match. The instructor shot in very fast only to meet with a devestating uppercut to the face. The instructor went flying back and looked like he wasn't all there  :whip: 

he said "Oh I slipped" ok... I'll accept that excuse.... but can you explain the other five attempts that all ended with you getting your face and body lit up by this boxer?  :boing2: did the boxer ever go to the ground???..... nope. Effectively ANTI-GRAPPLING!  :ultracool 

these people have to understand something. Grappling is a good TOOL to have... thar's right.... I said TOOL... because that's all it is. I am a Kung Fu man who uses all the arts I have studied and the art I specialize in as my deliverer of punishment. I know the reality of the street and the ring because I have been to both. 

this is a tired arguement headed by people who have no real life experience. get out there and walk the walk... stop talking the talk.


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## Kevin Walker (Jul 12, 2004)

leehoicheun said:
			
		

> look at incredible grapplers like Eric Paulson. There is no denyng that he is effective in the ring. But here's a funny bit of info for you jar head grapplers who think you have all the answers. He is also a fully certified instructor in Jeet Kune Do under Guru Dan Inosanto, that's right.... a Kung Fu based concept. Eric Paulson knows the difference between the ring and the street. Do you?
> 
> we had an indicent here recently that was so funny I had to turn my head. A gentleman in our area who owns a martial arts school was talking about the superiority of grappling against traditional martial arts, boxing and so on. It just so happened there was a friend of ours observing who was a champion ametaur boxer (middle weight class). The boxer disagreed and the grappling instructor invited him to the mat for a friendly sparring match. The instructor shot in very fast only to meet with a devestating uppercut to the face. The instructor went flying back and looked like he wasn't all there :whip:
> 
> ...


Yes, many years ago before the advent of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, wrestling was considered superior to many fighting styles.  Again, a very good wrestler invited a very good boxer to go at it in the ring.  And again, the wrestler attempted a single leg dive and received a flurry of shots to the back of his noggin, the boxer was wearing  bag gloves  (remember the boxing adage: "Throw bunches of punches").  The wrestler excused himself from anymore fighting.  Grappling is good, but it is not the epitome of fighting.


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## Angelusmortis (Sep 18, 2004)

As somone who has studied "classical" ju jitsu, and has a desire to learn Wing Chun, I can appreciate both grappling and traditionally striking matial arts. How about this for an idea, study ju jitsu based MA for specialised grappling, and WC for the striking??? Jees Louise...There is validity to most MA, the quote about it being the martial artist and not the art is a poignant statement. Utterly true, straight to the point. I have founf my previous jitsu training to be a tad reactive, as opposed to pre-active, and a little lacking in effective strikes, but pretty much all encompassing in terms of self defence. I'm fascinated by Kung fu too, particularly WC. In my mind they complement each other. My mind is like a shopping mall on Xmas Eve, open for business.


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## ed-swckf (Sep 19, 2004)

well i'm pretty sure that a guy who trains full time in groundfighting and bjj is going to be very dangerous, but he can be beaten simply if he is put in a situation where he can't fight his fight, and when he can fight his fight the opponent is still unpredictable.  Now i'm sure you all know this, and i think every wing chun school i have been to would advocate this:  Know yourself and know your enemy and in 100 battles you will never be defeated.  when you are ignorant to the enemy but know yourself you will loose 50% of the time.  If you are ignorant to your enemy and yourself then you will only know defeat.  Now i don't know how sun tzu would fair in ufc but i'm sure he wouldn't play the game of being grappled - remember "all warfare is based on deception"


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## Angelusmortis (Sep 19, 2004)

Good point mate. Fight your fight, not his....Or hers. Let's not be sexist bout this, mind you, if yer gettin into a fight with a girl, you're a wuss.


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## ed-swckf (Sep 19, 2004)

Angelusmortis said:
			
		

> Good point mate. Fight your fight, not his....Or hers. Let's not be sexist bout this, mind you, if yer gettin into a fight with a girl, you're a wuss.


wrong, if you are getting into a fight with a girl you are a fool, especially if its your wife/girlfriend - you can be the greatest kung fu master but you have to sleep sometime

I am strongly against sexism, females place in martial arts should not be overshadowed  by mens - obviously there is a scale issue as more men do martial arts but i wonder sometimes if you looked at it who trains hardest?  I know some women martial artists and they train really hard.  and lets not forget the classical history of this very art coming from ng mui.


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## Angelusmortis (Sep 20, 2004)

That wasn't my point, I meant on the street. Getting into a fight with a woman when the odds are more inclined in your favour to avoid it on the street, in my book shows cowardice. I also am against discriminating against a person merely on the grounds of gender, and have known some damn good female MA's, but like I said, my point wasn't in the dojo, or training facility, it was for picking a fight with a woman on the street. There nuff said...


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## ed-swckf (Sep 20, 2004)

Angelusmortis said:
			
		

> That wasn't my point, I meant on the street. Getting into a fight with a woman when the odds are more inclined in your favour to avoid it on the street, in my book shows cowardice. I also am against discriminating against a person merely on the grounds of gender, and have known some damn good female MA's, but like I said, my point wasn't in the dojo, or training facility, it was for picking a fight with a woman on the street. There nuff said...


that wasn't my point either, that was an afterthought on sexism.  But does it also mean its cowardice to fight another man when the odds are in your favour?  I see unfair match ups all the time.  

Is it cowardice to hit back when a women is kicking the **** out of you? 

Or do you believe in values such as you should never hit a woman?

If so, when is this value over ridden, when policemen have to control violent or criminal women?  when soldiers have to attack female soldiers? does this value only ever apply on the streets?  

I do agree with you in the essence of what you are saying, but these questions do arise, i have been in postions before where i have had to use restraint on a women but i have never hit a women but theres a world of difference between self defence and bullying i'm sure you'll agree - so would you hit a women if your personal safety depended on it?


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## Angelusmortis (Sep 20, 2004)

I see your point.  About the self defence. Any woman not getting a hint to NOT try and start a fight with my good self, and then proceeds towards violence is getting a ***** slap..good n' proper. However, I stand by my initial point that picking a fight with a girl, like picking a fight with a weedy bloke is just cowardice.


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## ed-swckf (Sep 21, 2004)

Angelusmortis said:
			
		

> I see your point. About the self defence. Any woman not getting a hint to NOT try and start a fight with my good self, and then proceeds towards violence is getting a ***** slap..good n' proper. However, I stand by my initial point that picking a fight with a girl, like picking a fight with a weedy bloke is just cowardice.


completely, cowardice, which wouldn't be a trait many people harbouring sexist ideals would often be without.


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## Angelusmortis (Sep 22, 2004)

Quite true...quite true.


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