# Some Shotokan help please?



## Tez3 (Oct 24, 2007)

I'm having a problem with the grandfather of one of the children I teach, I'm 1st Dan TSD and 1st Kyu Wado Ryu and have been doing martial arts for probably about 15 years now. I was teaching TSD to the childrens class last night and as usual this grandfather calls me over to point out the various problems he thinks I'm having! The first time it was because his grand daughter was moving the wrong foot, something I was aware of but I wanted to sort her arms out first, I don't believe in giving a child a catalougue of things they are doing wrong! The second time he said that the front stance surely was wrong!

 It seems 30 years ago he knew a Shotokan instructor who taught him a lot of 'stuff' (his words) and he was positive that the front stance -what I know as Junzuki, was very wrong. He stated strongly that both feet should be in line with each other more like a Chinese style. When I said no the feet should be a shoulder width apart, he said that they must have changed Shotokan then. It got a bit heated on his part, I keep quiet, something very hard for me to do but I wouldn't argue in front of the children. 

Okay I've never done Shotokan but I don't think they have ever changed the front stance? In Wado it was pointed out that we did the same stances as Shotokan but shorter. Never at any point is one foot placed in line behind the other as surely you'd be unbalanced? You don't walk as though you are on a line ( Like the drunk test) you walk with your feet approx a shoulder width apart.

The grand-daughter is mildly brain damaged but is doing wonderfully well so for her sake too I swallow a lot of the criticism and try to explain things to him (we also have a big lack of what he calls 'reinforcement' ie badges!) but with another syle I'm not that familiar with it's a bit hard.

Sorry but it's a bit of a rant too lol! Cheers for listening!


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## Ray B (Oct 24, 2007)

*YOU,* are the Sensei.


I get this all of the time. Grand/Parents are too close to the subject.
You are an independent opinion. You see things from outside the game.
I would continue doing what you think is best. If the Grand/Parent
disagrees, then fine, they can walk. 

Junzuki is front punch. Junzuki-dachi is front punch stance.
See:http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~tcs/karate_glossary.html#JUNZUKI-DACHI

You are correct, if feet are aligned one behind the other, you will lose
balance. Your hips will not allow for this unless you are standing
sideways. Then it will be more like shiko-dachi or kiba-dachi. 
Feet will be pointing in different direction, not forward.

Maybe you can ask this man for his teacher's name and you can
contact him directly? Either this or his Menkyo kaiden. LOL...


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## jks9199 (Oct 24, 2007)

Easy answer for the grandfather.

"This isn't Shotokan; it's Wado ryu (or TSD).  This is how we do it."

I recommend a similar approach for other issues; "I know about her feet; right now I'm worried about her hands.  We'll get to her feet."


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## Brian S (Oct 24, 2007)

I think it's good practice for parents and such to find something else to do during class time. They are just a distraction.

 Why didn't he just teach her at home since he already knows everything?

 :shock:


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## exile (Oct 24, 2007)

Simple solution, Tez: get him to adopt the hare-brained stance he seems to have gotten into his head as a result of seriously misinterpreting whatever `stuff' he learned long before. When he assumes the feet-in-a-line configuration, approach him from the side and give him a short, hard push causing him, 100 times out of a 100, to topple over. Then, as he's getting back to his feet, smile sweetly and say, `You see, that's what we're trying to avoid. Keep your feet on a diagonal between one and two shoulder widths apart and that can't happen.' And then a biiiiiig smile... :lol:


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## jks9199 (Oct 25, 2007)

Brian S said:


> I think it's good practice for parents and such to find something else to do during class time. They are just a distraction.
> 
> Why didn't he just teach her at home since he already knows everything?
> 
> :shock:


I agree...  We've got one student who's dad started training with him, but stopped in part because dad ended being a distraction.

One of the most frustrating things we run into sometimes is that one of my partner's kids is one of our lead students...  The mom-son dynamic is sometimes a hindrance to learning.


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## stone_dragone (Oct 25, 2007)

I think that you chose the right course of action.  I know that it can be incredibly frustrating when someone who is only peripherally associated with the class interjects not only distracting but wrong information "based on their experience" a lifetime ago.  

It seems by your description that the gentleman isn't really doing this maliciously but is seeking a way to be "helpful."  Unfortunately, his assistance is more of a hindrance than assistance.

Brian S hit the nail right on the head, too.  Parents/Guardians/etc should find something else to do during practice.  Watching the occasional practice is good and coming to gradings and things like that are wonderful, but when it comes time to get some practice done, especially when children are involved, it tends to be a major distraction more than not.

My .02


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## Brandon Fisher (Oct 25, 2007)

This guy is wrong on the forward stance and correcting you.  Its not his place to correct you at all.  As far as how he remembers it or they must have changed shotokan both are wrong, nothing changed which tells me he got some really poor training.


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## jim777 (Oct 25, 2007)

I think that to approach a black belt and tell them their business without having studied their style or earned a black belt themself tells you all you need to know about this grandparent's understanding of Karate-do. I guess the "stuff" he was shown in his youth didn't include respect for instructors. I could almost expect that behaviour from someone without a karate background, but to hear that about a person with some karate background makes me cringe.

I do watch my children at practice every time they go, but I go to the school as well, in the adult class. Same instructors for both classes. I wouldn't dream of putting myself between the instructors and the students, even my 4 kids. I like watching the classes because I learn while watching, about technique as well as about teaching. I'd like to instruct there myself someday.


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## chinto (Oct 25, 2007)

my answer would be : "this is the way we do it in this style, and it correct for this form/kata in this style. In the future we can discuss such things after class perhaps?  I have to get back to teaching the students now." and then after I would ask him if he aproches you what his training  and rank is respectfully, and who tought him. Then If this kept up I would say " I'm sorry 
this is the way we do things here."


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## Margaret Lo (Nov 21, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I'm having a problem with the grandfather of one of the children I teach, Sorry but it's a bit of a rant too lol! Cheers for listening!


 
He's wrong. Front stance - zenkutsudachi - in shotokan is feet shoulder width apart.


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## Jai (Nov 21, 2007)

To really drive a point home here that has been said, YOU are in charge of the class, not him. Never forget that, and never let this grandfather push what he "thinks" onto you. If he wants to push an issue with you, simply ask him to wait until after class and speak privately with him away from students if possible.


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## Margaret Lo (Nov 21, 2007)

Complain to the paying customers, the parents that gramps is interfering with the lessons. That'll get you the results you want.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 21, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> The first time it was because his grand daughter was moving the wrong foot, something I was aware of but I wanted to sort her arms out first, I don't believe in giving a child a catalougue of things they are doing wrong!


 
The other side of things has been covered quite well here, Irene, so I just wanted to say that this bit in particular is absolutely spot-on.  

Altho' I by no means consider myself a capable 'teacher' I do instruct fairly regularly now and that statement of yours rang so true.  There's no point telling a student that *everything* they are doing is wrong.  Okay, in some cases it is true that they're only getting some aspects right by accident but there's no training benefit in belittling them for it.

You pick a thing to work on and get that acceptable.  Then another thing ... then another thing and pretty soon the student is starting to recognise for him or herself what needs work and what will do 'for now'.


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## Kacey (Nov 21, 2007)

To build on Sukerkin's response (which I agree with completely) - try to make the grandfather understand that your teaching style (either personally or the style you are teaching) relies more on positive reinforcement than negative reinforcement - that you get better results building on what is _right_ that dwelling on what is _wrong_.  Also, try make it clear that you are concentrating on one thing at a time, and that to try to do more than one thing (especially in light of the girl's mild brain damage) will be more detrimental than allowing the "error" to go uncorrected while you work on a different aspect.

Good luck, and let us know how it's going - it's been several weeks since you first posted this; has anything helped/changed?


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