# Espada Y Daga Drills ?



## Seigi (Mar 19, 2003)

Hello,

Can Anyone give me some good Sword & Dagger drills to teach in my class. I really like how they help develop Eye/hand speed, timing etc...

Thank-you in advance.

Peace & Harmony always

Enoch


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## Cruentus (Mar 19, 2003)

What's up...! 

I'm leaving in a few days for New York City til' April 12th. I know quite a few espada y daga drills that you might like. Some of them you might have seen already, but I might have a few things you haven't seen, but would like.

Out of all of the drills I know (which are probably alot compared to most arnisadors) I had just asked Rich Parsons and Tim Hartman at the Dr. Gyi seminar at Jaye Spiro's school (a-hem, Scott Vanderzee was at the seminar, where were you! ) about this same issue. My concern wasn't with learning new drills, however, but it was with building a method for Semi-sparring, or full out sparring, with espada y daga. I feel I'm at a level where I can just pick up a short and long stick (immulating sword and dagger) and just "go at it" with someone no problem, but when it comes to building students up to a level where they can free play w/ espada y daga, that is a completely different story. I have a fairly sound method for building students to this level with single cane, because this is easier to execute control. I have a hard time preparing a student for sparring when there is 2 weapons involved, because this can get very messy from a control aspect. Since I am a firm believer in playing with hard weapons w/ little to no protective gear, I have a stronger emphasis on "good technique" with the ability to control your weapons then many instructors. It's o.k. to let someone know you got 'em, but I don't want to lose sparring partners & students to injury!  

Anyways, Rich Parsons runs a class in flint; he was able to give me some sound advise on teaching espada y daga to students, and building them up to a semi-sparring level. Datu Tim was also very helpful, as always.

Anyways, most of this stuff is better shown then explained. If you want, we can get together and play with some espada y daga stuff (or whatever other stuff you want) when I get back. I have plans to go visit Rich in flint and play with his group. Rich is my senior in Modern Arnis and in Balintawak, so I can play with him at a different level then I am able to with my own students. You can go up there with me if you want, also (with Rich's permission of course, which I am sure would be O.K.).

So, if you want, I'll give you a ring when I get back, and we can talk about it.

Later!
:asian: 
Paul Janulis


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 19, 2003)

Paul,


You and your friend Enoch are welcome. 

Just contact me to make sure I am around and not traveling about the country side or the globe .

And thank you for the kind words. :asian: One last word, My Senior, Master Jim Power is actually in charge of the club. :asian:


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## Cruentus (Mar 19, 2003)

> One last word, My Senior, Master Jim Power is actually in charge of the club.



This is true....I am sorry I forgot to mention this. Senior Master Jim Power is also very experienced in Modern Arnis. I believe he started with Professor in the late 70's. :asian:


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## Dan Anderson (Mar 19, 2003)

Seigi,

What I do with my students is:
1.  Block an incoming strike and check/cut with the dagger
2.  Block an incoming strike and counter with a _style_ of striking such as rompida, figure 8 and the like inserting a stab with the dagger after the completion of the strike.
3.  Same a 2 except to insert the stab mid-strike.
4.  Do any of the counter for counter drills (give & take, 6 count etc.) using the dagger cut as the check action.

This will give you something to work on until you can hook up with Rich.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Guro Harold (Mar 19, 2003)

Hi Rich,

Another good set of forms that incorporate Espada Y Daga are the "Seven Seguidas" from Pekiti Tersia.  The Dog Brothers are a source for it for video.

The 80's GM Remy Presas's tapes had alot of techniques too.  Its easier for someone to show you and/or to look them up than to explain them.

Palusut


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## Guro Harold (Mar 19, 2003)

Sorry Rich, Seigi,

I accidentally addressed the wrong person with my previous post.  My 5 month year old daughter was trying to assist me typing and I got distracted..

The scary thing is that her words per minute is faster than mine.:erg: 


Take care,

Palusut


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## Samurai (Mar 20, 2003)

The late Edgar Sulite of Lameco has a tape out from Unique Publications on Espada Y Daga.  It has some good drills and things in it.  

I just watched it last night. 
Thanks
Jeremy Bays


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## lhommedieu (Mar 20, 2003)

Our style has several amara (striking patterns), that are taught to beginners and later placed in a longer form.  One of the amara is called "Downward" because the defender steps back with his or her left foot and delivers a forehand diagonal downward cut with the stick or espada, before continuing with the striking pattern.  Here's a drill adapted from this amara:

(Assuming you are both holding the espada w/ your right hands):

A. Step rt. foot forward w/ forehand downward strike w/ espada
D. Step lf. foot backwand w/ forehand downward strike w/ espada

A. Thrust w/ daga to chest (overhand)
D. Flywheel (redondo) to daga hand w/ espada

A. (Waits)
D. Continue to daga thrust (overhand) to daga hand and monitor daga hand with daga

A. Backhand downward strike w/ espada
D. Backhand downward strike w/ epada

A. Thrust w/ daga to chest (overhand)
D. Daga thrust (overhand) to daga hand and monitor daga hand with daga

A. (Waits)
D. Forehand upward strike to daga hand with espada

A. Forehand horizontal strike w/ espada
B. Cross-step right foot behind left and flywheel (redondo) 2X with espada to cover center-line

A. Flywheel (redondo) w/ espada
D. Continue motion of 2nd Flywheel to backhand horizontal strike w/ espada - no followthrough.  This is called "media" or half-strike

A.  Thrust w/ daga to chest (overhand)
D.  Step rt. foot forward to "Forward Uno Dos."  This is:  1.  Step rt. foot forward as you flywheel to daga hand w/ espada; 2. Thrust w/ daga to daga hand; 3. Step lt foot forward as you backhand downward strike to A's rt. collar bone with espada (cut through to his lf. hip); 4. Thrust to chest w/ daga as lf. foot lands.

Repeat by D stepping back with lf foot as A steps forward w/ rt. foot to recycle the drill.  

This drill teaches to alternate your defense between both of his weapons, and to attack his daga hand with both weapons, where possible.  In addition, it teaches the defender to keep his lt. foot light at the end because he/she must step back w/ it again to repeat the drill.  This helps you to learn not to commit too much on the last thrust, which is the _only_ daga thrust to the chest by the defender.  

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Seigi (Mar 21, 2003)

Thanks to everyone for their advice!


Paul, My Brother in-law had a pace maker put in his chest that weekend, i could'nt make Gr Gyi. Seminar. Scott told me it was great , sorry!

& I would love to train with you & Mr Parsons.
E-mail me (do you still have my e-mail).


Thanks again to everyone for thier great tips.

Peace & Harmony always!


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## Cruentus (Mar 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seigi _
> *Thanks to everyone for their advice!
> 
> 
> ...



No need to apoligize about not making it to Dr. Gyi; I was just giving you a hard time, anyways.  

I do still have your E-mail; I'll use it when I return from NYC.

I hope your brother-in-law is doing well.

:asian:


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## arnisandyz (Mar 21, 2003)

One of my teachers used to have us substitute the dagger for the live hand, and instead of checking, cutting.  Another teacher said that if you are lost and do not know what to do with your live hand, put a knife in it.  With this in mind, you can do most drills you already do with single stick, numerada, sombrada, hubad, even some tapi-tapi.  Try this, start out right on right tapi-tapi, when you insert the bait, instead of the empty hand hitting, draw a blade and feed that instead-  your partner should seem more anxious to take the bait when he sees a knife coming his way!  Haven't done this in a while, maybe well do it tonight!  Experiment and play, take what you already know, stick a knife in your other hand and go with what happens.

Andy


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## Seigi (Mar 21, 2003)

Great advice Andy, thats a great way of looking at it.

Peace


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Palusut _
> *Sorry Rich, Seigi,
> 
> I accidentally addressed the wrong person with my previous post.  My 5 month year old daughter was trying to assist me typing and I got distracted..
> ...




Palusut,

No reason to apologize  

I hope your little one had fun! helping you ! 

Good Advice you gave anyways

:asian:


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## Guro Harold (Mar 22, 2003)

Thanks Rich,

The fun never ends. Can't wait for her to hold her own bottle, then I can show her 12 strikes.

The cool thing about threads like this is that we expand and preserve the reference base for everyone, which is excellent!

Great training to you,

Palusut


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## Dan Anderson (Mar 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Palusut _
> *Thanks Rich,
> 
> The fun never ends. Can't wait for her to hold her own bottle, then I can show her 12 strikes.
> ...


Pal,
I didn't know you had a little one.  Is she your first?  I know the feeling.  Mine has learned the 12 strikes but is more into karate.  She's already told me that when I retire, she's taking over for me.

Yours,
Dan


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## Seigi (Mar 27, 2003)

?


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## moromoro (Mar 27, 2003)

Hello,

Can Anyone give me some good Sword & Dagger drills to teach in my class. I really like how they help develop Eye/hand speed, timing etc...

Thank-you in advance.

Peace & Harmony always

Enoch"


you are pathetic!! 

how can you call yourself a teacher when you do not know what to teach and you are asking an internet forum for help on what to teach your class??? 
i feel sorry for your students..... i know plenty of espada y daga and also garrote y daga drills, some of the basics include, arko, suyop, palakaw but you cannot learn them from a forum you must study with a qualified teacher....preferably the main teacher of the style (grandmaster)......

once again you are pathetic

terry


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## Seigi (Mar 27, 2003)

I know plenty of drills from Inosanto Kali.

I asked for more options to share?

I thought that was what this forum was for?


Sorry to offend you.

Peace


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## Cruentus (Mar 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *Hello,
> 
> Can Anyone give me some good Sword & Dagger drills to teach in my class. I really like how they help develop Eye/hand speed, timing etc...
> ...



Moromoro,

I'm only going to say this once. Don't be a dick. You know nothing about Enoch. He was just trying to get some different opinions from other practitioners of Filipino Martial Artists, and there is nothing wrong with that.

If you knew him you would know that he isn't one of those people who claim to teach and know everything about "Kali," but who really only teach their style of Karate with sticks and knives, while barely even take the time to take a FMA seminar. Enoch has been active in Modern Arnis and other FMA, and he actively seeks knowledge in FMA wherever he can find it. We need more instructors like him who claim FMA; who are always trying to learn from others.

So, don't jump to conclusions until you know all the details.

Respectfully,
PAUL


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## moromoro (Mar 27, 2003)

paul i will say this again because i dont think you understood my reply.....

enoch said Can Anyone give me some good Sword & Dagger drills to teach in my class. I really like how they help develop Eye/hand speed, timing etc...

and then paul said
We need more instructors like him who claim FMA; who are always trying to learn from others.


hey paul we do not need FMA instructors who ask for advice on what to teach their class from an internet forum... hahahahahaha 
the notion of this makes me sick,  you tell this to any grandmaster in the philippines and they will also burst out laughfing....

paul.. who are always trying to learn from others.

yes by all means this is what people should be doing i myself am a personal student of two great FMA grandmasters...

BUT TRYING TO LEARN FROM OTHERS IN A FORUM TO TEACH THEIR CLASS THE NEXT NIGHT.... COME ON THIS IS TOO MUCH....

LEARNING FROM OTHERS IN THIS FORUM AND ASKING ADVICE FOR YOUR PERSONAL TRAINING IS OK IF YOU DONT HAVE A GOOD TEACHER,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, BUT IAM AGAINST WHAT HE JUST SAID WANTING TO LEARN TECHNIQUES TO TEACH HIS STUDENTS....

THANKS

TERRY


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## Pappy Geo (Mar 27, 2003)

I am sure there was nothing but good intentions asking for drills. 

First of all drills are very hard to describe converting physical motion to written word .....but more importantly without intertrepation and connection of the techniques, understanding the application of the motions of a drill it becomes a form without value.

There are many videos available that break down forms into techniques applicable to combat but better when studied under a knowledgeable instructor, the depth of the drill, application of the movements, etc., gives a deep understanding to the overall utility.

If you are just doing the motions of a drill or form you may have the "ART" but not the "MARTIAL."

Even trying express the above is difficult in written words. Please don't take this as criticism, the instructor that started this thread was reaching out for information and sources of education and that is a better use of these forums than political in fighting. 

 Some of postings on this thread offered to hookup and share knowledge with him and also referred other qualified instructors for him to seek. Those were informational and correct answers that I am sure he was seeking, so see there is value in these forums when encouraged to be educational and informational.

2-cents


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *paul i will say this again because i dont think you understood my reply.....
> 
> enoch said Can Anyone give me some good Sword & Dagger drills to teach in my class. I really like how they help develop Eye/hand speed, timing etc...
> ...




Terry,

First, are you Filipino? or Austrailian? or ???

Second, I have heard and been told that the term Moro is derogatory to the Muslims in the PI's., So, please I find this name to be offensive and please remove it from this site. Choose another name. (* Do I actually think you will? Nope? But, from my knowledge it should not be allowed. Just my opinion *)

Third, ever since you joined you have been enthusiastic, which is great, yet you have also been very insulting. Your way is the only way. Your way and your teachers ways are the best. I am glad you are happy with your art and instructors. 

I agree the best way to learn is from a qualified instructor, one on one.  And yes the higher up you go on the food chain or in rank the better instruction I would expect. Yet you seem to assume the worst of everyone who posts. So, I guess I have to assume the worst about you. You are new and excited, and have been shown some knew thecniques and skills. This is great, yet remember others out there could and do have the skills and techniques you have had the priviledge to have seen.


As to you nationality, it matters not, only trying to figure out of English is your first language or not.

Have a Nice Day I know I will. 

(* This time Jill is right *)


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## moromoro (Mar 27, 2003)

huh

ok firstly  iam filipino born and raised in zamboanga city, but now i live in australia but i spend 1 -1.5 months of the year in zamboanga and sorsogon also i have houses in both zamboanga and sorsogon and 99% of my family are in the philippines..

the term moro is the chavacano word for muslim, although the rich (higher class muslims) do not like to be called this is the term people use in zamboanga....

one more thing how dare you mock the term moromoro my master GM Abrian use this name in his system in honour of a moro eskrimador who he saw practice in the island of samar, GM abrain is the best i have seen with pinuti and sundang as well as empty hands. HOW DARE YOU MOCK HIS ART.... YOU TRULY ARE A NOBODY BUT A LITTLE PIECE OF CRAP WHO TRAINS WITH ANOTHER NEVER WILL BE, i think i know you you train with your GM once or twice a year.... GM Abrian is highly respected many instructors and now GM have ask for his instruction and where refused, ernesto presas was one of them.. GM Abrain has sparred with the best manila has had to offer including GM tatang illustrisimo GM joe mena and who he considers the best out of the lot Tatang celo illustrisimos uncle... please buy mark wileys filipino fighting arts theory and parctice... it also has my other master GM navarro who i train with 4 times a wekk on a one on one basis while iam here in australia....also these masters asked me to keep them a promise and that was to alway accept a challenge this is due to the high level i am in both there arts..

if you find the term moro derogatory pls email me and i will give you GM Abrians home phone number please tell him your views tell him you find it offensive remember you will be talking to a master who has had plenty of real death fights in samar as well as manila... i will call him tonight and tell him he will be expecting a call from you (an american master who does not like his arts name (which has been in use since 1955).....remember email me... ok


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## Dan Anderson (Mar 27, 2003)

Terry,

This is from another source this time.  First of all, chill out and re-read Rich's post.  

_Second, I *have heard and been told* that the term Moro is derogatory to the Muslims in the PI's., So, please I find this name to be offensive and please remove it from this site._

I know Rich.  If he is incorrect or has been incorrectly told something regarding terminology, he will also be the first to correct it.  If the term _moro_ has a different translation, let him know rather than take it so personally.  

_one more thing how dare you mock the term moromoro my master GM Abrian use this name in his system _

Re-read his post.  He said *nothing* about the term moromoro in a mocking manner nor said anything about your master.

_i will call him tonight and tell him he will be expecting a call from you (an american master who does not like his arts name (which has been in use since 1955)_

????????

Re-read his posts, slowly and carefully, and you will find nothing to lose your temper about.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## moromoro (Mar 27, 2003)

hi dan it is his second paragraph.. which is

Second, I have heard and been told that the term Moro is derogatory to the Muslims in the PI's., So, please I find this name to be offensive and please remove it from this site. Choose another name. (* Do I actually think you will? Nope? But, from my knowledge it should not be allowed. Just my opinion *)


now dan i have never used the term moro i use moromoro which is what rich does not want to be used.. this is what iam so angry about....


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## Dan Anderson (Mar 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *now dan i have never used the term moro i use moromoro which is what rich does not want to be used.. this is what iam so angry about.... *



And I bet there's where the confusion lies, the difference between moro and moromoro.  In one post could you give the difference between the two?  Thanks in advance.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *huh
> 
> ok firstly  iam filipino born and raised in zamboanga city, but now i live in australia but i spend 1 -1.5 months of the year in zamboanga and sorsogon also i have houses in both zamboanga and sorsogon and 99% of my family are in the philippines..
> ...





Terry,

You see, you say this and I say that. It all comes from different people from the PI and nothing is constant. There are no absolutes. 

Go Search the Eskrima Digest for Moro and see how upset some Filipinos get about the term.

Never once did I insult you GM. First, he is a Manong to me and deserves respect. Yet, I wonder if you truly are respecting him with your rants?

As for my Training, yes you may call that into question.

I train with Manong (GM) Ted Buot of Balintawak from Cebu City.

Manong Buot was the only student to teach at GM Anciong Bacon's club beside GM Bacon. I train at least once a week every week. Yes I cannot train more, and for that I am sorry. Yet I train with at least two of his regular students two other times a week. On average I put in 5-7 hours a week on this. Yes this is not much time. I cannot train from dusk to dawn everyday, and for that I have to pay with people like you calling into question my schooling.

I have seen it with FMA, CMA, JMA and KMA. If it is not straight from the country of origin and trained in that country your training does not count. To this I say becareful, if you ever run across someone who does know and you do not show the proper respect for their knowledge.



Now as to being a piece of crap. So be it. As for training with nobodies, well you little piece of crap, I will e-mail you and I will try to contact your GM. You see I will take the beating he is willing to give me for the chance to learn. You on the other hand are not worth the time. I never insulted your lineage nor your instructor, only told you I found the word derogatory. There are word for Caucasians, Africans, Orientals, Islanders, Jews, Catholics, etc, ..., that are all derogatory in nature. I try not to be insulting, unless someone comes off on me or others.

So, I have a little piece of knowledge for you. Watch and Learn. Do not yell and ignore. Allow for someone else besides you and your instructor the chance to be knowledgeable. Add to the discussion do not be insulting and derogatory.



As to GM Abrian being the Best of the Best, I leave that to him to claim and or defend. Yet since Ising Attillo also claims to be the best of the best, maybe your two schools should get together and discuss this.

Please pass along my respects to Manong Abrian the next time you talk or see him. I have no quarrel with him, only your approach to how you represent and possible threaten others on this forum. 

Study your art, learn your art. If you are in the US, even California let me know I will do my best to get out that way to see you. Also If I get back to Asia, China or Japan for work I will try to stay over and see if I cannot stop by.

Just my opinion and thoughts.

Have a nice Day I know I did!


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## moromoro (Mar 27, 2003)

yes, rich, i respect your training with ted bout you should keep this up for we (this generation) are going to be the last link to great masters from the past..

one more thing, you said 
As to GM Abrian being the Best of the Best, I leave that to him to claim and or defend.  "what" 
i said he is the best i have seen with pinuti and sundang as well as empty hands, never "best of the best" dont try to change things to make yourself look good.. 

"maybe your two schools should get together and discuss this."
theres the problem he doesnt have a school in fact he has told me he doesn't have a style in that sense of the word he also has no basics taught in his system.... feel free to email me...

THE BOTTOM LINE IS DO YOU STILL WANT ME TO STOP USING THE TERM MORO  (MOROMORO)......

OK 

THATS SETTLED

KEEP TRAINING 
SOME PEOPLE IN FORUMS LOSE THEIR COOL OVER THE SMALLEST THINGS LOOK AT YOU RICH YOU GOT ANGRY WITH ME USING THE TERM MORO, WHEN MY POST WAS ORIGINALLY ADDRESSED TO SEIGI....


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *yes, rich, i respect your training with ted bout you should keep this up for we (this generation) are going to be the last link to great masters from the past..
> 
> one more thing, you said
> ...



(* BTW: All Caps means you are yelling on the internet. Just for your information *)

Not trying to change the subject.

If you claim your GM is the best and others claim it then how can this be? Just another question to be asked in a civil manner is all.
I would agree that he is most likely very respected. 

Let me say this. Since you are Filipino you can use it. You see as a Caucasian if I use Honkey or ..., that is fine, I cannot use a term that other races or religions may find insulting. It is kind of like if you are one of the people in question then you can use it as a term of pride. So, my opinion really does not manner, just do some research as I mentioned and see how some really get violent about this term.

As to the no basics, issue, I am no expert in all FMA by no means, yet I would find it hard to believe that your instructor does not have basics that he teaches first. They may not be taught in a manner of this has to be first, yet I would believe that there are some things he cannot teach until you learn the right technique, the right body position (* Foot work and Leaning *) and the right time to use it.  

As to a commercial school like other arts, Yes I would believe that does not exist. As you and I both said, it is best to learn one on one from a respectable instructor.


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## moromoro (Mar 27, 2003)

i just emailed you..

but believe it he has no basics, he does not take new students and he only has a handfull of students, yeah like all the older filipino's they are all respected actually Ernesto presas asked him what do you teach if you have no basics, tatay Abrian said i have no basics..


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *i just emailed you..
> 
> but believe it he has no basics, he does not take new students and he only has a handfull of students, yeah like all the older filipino's they are all respected actually Ernesto presas asked him what do you teach if you have no basics, tatay Abrian said i have no basics.. *




Terry,

Yes and I had sent you two already. I see you have also replied.

If you wish to take this discsusion to e-mail that is fine.


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## moromoro (Mar 27, 2003)

thanks rich


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