# 5th Dan Test?



## Cruentus (May 3, 2006)

I'll start by clarifying that I am not a Bujinkan student. This is only because lifes path hasn't taken me to a place to dedicate my training to to the art.

The art does facinate me, though, as far as combat relevency and skills go (had to clarify why it facinates me, because I care little about the ninja fantasy that often accompanies the inquiries about the art).

One thing that is very interesting to me is the 5th Dan test. From what I read, the student closes his eyes and is in a seated posture on the floor. GM Hatsumi approaches from behind, and hits at the student witha wooden bokken. The student has to evade the blow to pass the test. This is what I read; but correct me if I am wrong.

So, I was wondering if anyone can explain to me from a logical perspective as to how this is done. What skills does one practice or learn to be able to pass this test? Even if you aren't a 5th Dan, I am sure you might have some idea?

Anyways, my inquiry is genuine. If, for some reason, I am stepping over boundries by inquiring about this, then please let me know (and reasons why so that I understand) and I will apologize and drop the subject.

Thanks in advance...

Paul


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## rutherford (May 3, 2006)

As far as I know, there's no boundry here.  But I also don't think you'll get a lot of solid information.  Most folks will say that only training will prepare you for this test, but that training will indeed prepare you for this test.

I've heard some folks say that nothing prepares you for this test and that Hatsumi _moves_ the person out of the way of his strike and that only Hatsumi can decide if you will pass this test.

To further complicate the issue, sometimes Hatsumi isn't the one wielding the weapon.

Some interesting, possibly related, reading:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22382
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31315


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## Cruentus (May 3, 2006)

Thanks, I'll read up when I have time.



> I've heard some folks say that nothing prepares you for this test and that Hatsumi _moves_ the person out of the way of his strike and that only Hatsumi can decide if you will pass this test.


 
This would certianly make sense, but like I said, I'll read up. Anyone disagree with the quoted possability?


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 3, 2006)

Most people I know just say it is about letting go!  Hopefully, that will
help Paul.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Bigshadow (May 3, 2006)

The couple of 5th Dan I personally know who have passed the test have two different stories.  I believe the experience is not consistent across the board.  I have not taken it, so I do not speak with any authority other than my conversations with the two Shidoshi I know and train with.  One talks about letting go and truly believing "today is a good day to get hit".  The other one pretty much said, he closed his eyes and he don't know what happened, he just heard the bokken crashing to the mat, BTW, it was not Soke for the second guy, I spoke about, but Nagato.  The first guy I spoke about can also be seen on TLC's top 10 martial arts, BBT was #4 and they show him taking his godan test, given by Hatsumi.

This is how I understood what they experienced (in my words).  I have also read that Hatsumi gave the test to some non-ma people and someone passed it.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 3, 2006)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> I'll start by clarifying that I am not a Bujinkan student. This is only because lifes path hasn't taken me to a place to dedicate my training to to the art.



Don't worry, nobody's perfect. 



			
				Tulisan said:
			
		

> One thing that is very interesting to me is the 5th Dan test. From what I read, the student closes his eyes and is in a seated posture on the floor. GM Hatsumi approaches from behind, and hits at the student witha wooden bokken.


 
Most of the time a shinai is used, but there have been instances in which bokken as well as bo staffs have been used...



			
				Tulisan said:
			
		

> So, I was wondering if anyone can explain to me from a logical perspective as to how this is done.


 
Nope.
My best guess so far is that it is due to taijutsu training having enabled one to re-discover an ability which already exists inherently in humans as well as animals.



			
				Tulisan said:
			
		

> What skills does one practice or learn to be able to pass this test?


 
Taijutsu.

Now, take this for what it's worth, as I've long since accepted that I probably won't get the opportunity to even attempt the test personally.


PS. When Soke allows a shihan to perform the test under his supervision, don't look at the two persons actually doing the test. Keep your attention on Soke. "It's cool".


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## Don Roley (May 3, 2006)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> So, I was wondering if anyone can explain to me from a logical perspective as to how this is done. What skills does one practice or learn to be able to pass this test? Even if you aren't a 5th Dan, I am sure you might have some idea?



I think it should be pointed out that it seems as if those that try to prepare most for the test do the worst. There is no exercises or such that I have heard Hatsumi reccomend. The closest I think is his advice to take long walks. I _think_ he mentioned that in relation to the test.


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## Tenchijin2 (May 3, 2006)

Also, one minor point (or maybe not so minor if you get it): there is no 'eyes closed' requirement. Most people close their eyes in order to concentrate better.

I had my eyes open on my test, although I didn't realize it at the time.

*Proper* training will prepare you for the test.


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## Kreth (May 3, 2006)

Tenchijin2 said:
			
		

> I had my eyes open on my test, although I didn't realize it at the time.


Same here, although the first thing I remember seeing was people clapping after it was over...


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## Tenchijin2 (May 3, 2006)

The funny thing was that it was originally some obsession of mine to pass the test with my eyes open, because I'd read something that Noguchi had said about keeping your eyes open in order to use all your senses.

So when I passed, I mentioned to my instructor (Bill Atkins) that I was a bit disappointed that I wasn't able to keep my eyes open. He looked at me quizzically and said "Dude... your eyes were *wide* open and totally dilated. It was pretty cool."(I'm paraphrasing).

It took probably an hour or two before I could recall the event totally, but I can definitely remember the whole thing, including what I was seeing and the feelings and thoughts I had during the test, and how it felt to move out of the way.


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## Cruentus (May 4, 2006)

Thanks for the discussion so far, guys. This is incredably interesting to me. 

So, if you could, explain in your own words what you felt triggered the response to effectively move? I realize of course that this explaination will be limited, due to reason that it would seem that your utilizing parts of the brain and body not exactly existing in the consious mind.


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## Cruentus (May 4, 2006)

Also, does anyone ever "jump the gun," or move well before they should out of anticipation and adrinaline rather then the triggered response of the strike?


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## Don Roley (May 4, 2006)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Also, does anyone ever "jump the gun," or move well before they should out of anticipation and adrinaline rather then the triggered response of the strike?



Frequently. That is a failure as well. But usually you are allowed to sit back down and try again.


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## Cruentus (May 4, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Frequently. That is a failure as well. But usually you are allowed to sit back down and try again.


 
I figured as much, but I didn't want to assume. How many tries you get is decided by Hatsumi also, I assume?


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## Tenchijin2 (May 4, 2006)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> So, if you could, explain in your own words what you felt triggered the response to effectively move?.


 
I don't think we can honestly say what *triggers* the movement, but I can tell you that as I sat there the top of my head got very HOT. Then I just knew it was time to move without having to 'think' about it.

The experience is very different for everyone, though. It's not important what it feels like to someone else, what's important is what it feels like to YOU. And it might feel different every time. Part of the lesson (IMO) is to not expect something in particular but to accept what is actually happening right then.


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## Kreth (May 4, 2006)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> So, if you could, explain in your own words what you felt triggered the response to effectively move?


In my case, I had a strong feeling that I needed to move, NOW! Then I realized that I already had, and people started to clap (the test is done in front of a class at Honbu).


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## liuseongsystem (May 4, 2006)

My Teacher can do that at will.

we try to punch him.

havent touched him yet.

I can do it as well, but i am hit and miss, and 'get jumpy' still.


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## Cruentus (May 4, 2006)

That's neat. The mind/body state sounds almost zenlike.... from a non-practitioners perspective, I would compare it too the same kind of mind body state I let myself be in when I am leasurely walking with my dog out in the country? (I'll end that with a questionmark because for all I know I could be way off base...) Although, it seems that part of the "test" is can one be in that state to sense and move before being hit with the stress of KNOWING that someone is going to klonk you in the head if you fail - a lot more at stake then walking a dog I am sure.


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## ManOfVirtues (May 5, 2006)

just makes me glad Hatsumi uses padded bokken and shinai and not the real deal. 

Could you imagine how reluctent people would be to take the test if he used the real thing?


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## Kreth (May 5, 2006)

ManOfVirtues said:
			
		

> just makes me glad Hatsumi uses padded bokken and shinai and not the real deal.
> 
> Could you imagine how reluctent people would be to take the test if he used the real thing?


It's bad enough with the shinai. I've never seen anyone knocked out, but I've seen a few people who definitely had their bell rung.
I won't tell the story in detail since I heard it second-hand, but once Hatsumi sensei absolutely drilled a student who sat for the test after 2 years of training, then said "NO!"


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## MJS (May 5, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> It's bad enough with the shinai. I've never seen anyone knocked out, but I've seen a few people who definitely had their bell rung.
> I won't tell the story in detail since I heard it second-hand, but once Hatsumi sensei absolutely drilled a student who sat for the test after 2 years of training, then said "NO!"


 
Out of curiosity, what is the standard time line for ranking in the Bujinkan?  It seems like this is a test in which some time is required to build up the sensitivity or 'feeling' that you'll get when Hatsumi begins the downward cut.  2 yrs. seems like not much time in training to be ready for a test like this.

Mike


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## Cruentus (May 5, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, what is the standard time line for ranking in the Bujinkan? It seems like this is a test in which some time is required to build up the sensitivity or 'feeling' that you'll get when Hatsumi begins the downward cut. 2 yrs. seems like not much time in training to be ready for a test like this.
> 
> Mike


 
I think that would all depend on the training method, though. When your talking in terms of years rather then weeks or months, how effective your training is holds more weight then time spent. That's just been my experience, though.


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## Kreth (May 5, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, what is the standard time line for ranking in the Bujinkan? It seems like this is a test in which some time is required to build up the sensitivity or 'feeling' that you'll get when Hatsumi begins the downward cut. 2 yrs. seems like not much time in training to be ready for a test like this.
> 
> Mike


There really isn't a standard. I sat for the test after about 9 years in the Bujinkan. I've also seen the Japanese shihan tell a student to sit for the test.
A funny story about my test: A friend and I both ended up sitting for the test within a week of each other. He had successfully passed his test the week before I got to Japan. My first class on arriving in Japan was with Hatsumi sensei, at the Honbu dojo. There is typically a break in the middle of class for tea, at which time sensei usually does calligraphy for those attending. In the middle of break, knowing that I'll be testing at the end of class, my friend walks up and casually asks, "So... nervous yet?" :uhyeah:


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## MJS (May 5, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> There really isn't a standard. I sat for the test after about 9 years in the Bujinkan. I've also seen the Japanese shihan tell a student to sit for the test.


 
Thanks for the reply!  




> A funny story about my test: A friend and I both ended up sitting for the test within a week of each other. He had successfully passed his test the week before I got to Japan. My first class on arriving in Japan was with Hatsumi sensei, at the Honbu dojo. There is typically a break in the middle of class for tea, at which time sensei usually does calligraphy for those attending. In the middle of break, knowing that I'll be testing at the end of class, my friend walks up and casually asks, "So... nervous yet?" :uhyeah:


 
Ahh...nothing like saying something that would help you relax right!


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## ManOfVirtues (May 5, 2006)

man what we do without the support of our friends around us.


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## Cruentus (May 5, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> "So... nervous yet?" :uhyeah:


 
lol.

Besides differences in training methods, it sounds like whether someone is ready or not probably has a lot to due with their personal makup as well.


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## liuseongsystem (May 5, 2006)

'Besides differences in training methods, it sounds like whether someone is ready or not probably has a lot to due with their personal makup as well.'

actually just about anyone can do, it is just a matter of relaxing and focusing correctly.  

there are differing degrees of skill with it of course.  

me i can dodge a punch and mostly get a good read from where it is coming from.  

my Teacher can move as soon as you think about and is out of range before you can even step.  it is almost like as soon as you start to think about and generate the intention,  he picks up on it and moves.

it you cant relax it wont work however.

and beyond that, someone mentioned being able to do this while walking the door, in a natural setting.  now that is what is considered high skill....'defending unseen from the four sides and the four corners'.

thanx.


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## Kreth (May 5, 2006)

liuseongsystem said:
			
		

> actually just about anyone can do, it is just a matter of relaxing and focusing correctly.


Since this is a thread on the Bujinkan test, could you let us know about your experience in the Bujinkan?


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## Cruentus (May 5, 2006)

liuseongsystem said:
			
		

> 'Besides differences in training methods, it sounds like whether someone is ready or not probably has a lot to due with their personal makup as well.'
> 
> actually just about anyone can do, it is just a matter of relaxing and focusing correctly.
> 
> ...


 
Interesting. We are all capable of certain things, but certianly this isn't a thread or forum area where "me tooing" is appropriate. I was interested in what Bujinkan does in relation to a particular skill in the spirit of learning. I am not interested in looking at claimed comparitive skills.

So, if you have experience with Bujinkan, I would certianly like to hear about that.

Thank you.


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## liuseongsystem (May 5, 2006)

ah sorry didnt know this was Bunjinkan exclusive thread. often i dont read titles very well and generally search and pursue topics of interest.

my apologies.

and no, i do not have any Bujinkan exerience.

and btw, lets stay from referring to my activities as 'me tooing'.

since we are being polite.

peace.


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## Tenchijin2 (May 5, 2006)

Once cautionary note on this whole subject:

if you haven't experienced 'it', this type of conversation *can* be perilous to your development. It's very easy to think that you understand what is being discussed becuase it's *similar* to something you already know or do. But, very often it isn't the  same thing and you can easily mislead yourself into thinking you grasp something that you do not.

there are many levels to this type of skill, and Hatsumi sensei discusses this topic in several books (most recently "Ninpo Wisdom for Life" IIRC). The godan test isn't necessarily about avoiding an attack from behind, although it seems absurd to say that. Some say it isn't even about YOU at all!

As far as time and skill... let's just say that it would seem inconceivable to me that all 1000+ godan are highly skilled. I've trained with hundreds of them personally, so let's just say that I firmly believe that ambition and politics are alive and well even at this level of testing. I've seen people with NO training pass the test in demos. Does this mean they are godan? Or is there more to being a godan than passing the sakki test?

Just some things to think about. BTW, I'm not suggesting that anyone in this thread has been irresponsible with the information. Quite the contrary I think this is one of the best threads on the topic I've ever read!


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## Don Roley (May 5, 2006)

Tenchijin2 said:
			
		

> Once cautionary note on this whole subject:
> 
> if you haven't experienced 'it', this type of conversation *can* be perilous to your development. It's very easy to think that you understand what is being discussed becuase it's *similar* to something you already know or do. But, very often it isn't the  same thing and you can easily mislead yourself into thinking you grasp something that you do not.



Which is kind of why liuseongsystem got the reaction he did. If Kreth had not already answered, I would have. Other arts do things that are of great value. But we need to be very clear that we stick to how things are done in this art to avoid confusion with things that are similar in many ways, but have very, very important differences.


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## swiftpete (May 6, 2006)

How come a live blade is not used any more then anyway?


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## Cruentus (May 6, 2006)

swiftpete said:
			
		

> How come a live blade is not used any more then anyway?


 
Huh?


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## ManOfVirtues (May 7, 2006)

swiftpete said:
			
		

> How come a live blade is not used any more then anyway?



For two reasons I assume, laws of man. And if you start killing off your students it would be pretty hard to get any new members.


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## Cruentus (May 7, 2006)

ManOfVirtues said:
			
		

> For two reasons I assume, laws of man. And if you start killing off your students it would be pretty hard to get any new members.


 
Dudes, what are we talking about?


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 7, 2006)

Paul, the test used to be given with a live blade!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Cruentus (May 8, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Paul, the test used to be given with a live blade!
> 
> Brian R. VanCise
> www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


 
By Hatsumi or before him?


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## KyleShort (May 8, 2006)

Live blade by Hatsumi Paul, if I recall correctly.

It's interesting...I have been training in Bujinkan and Eskrima for some time now and I am starting to *feel* the two arts joining inside me in ways...in any case...I have taken many long breaks from the Bujinkan, thus I am not even Shodan yet...however I can certainly attest to the awareness that BBT develops. I believe that it is this awareness that the Godan test is all about. A few years back I was on business in Sydney, Aus. and I had not been actively training in BBT for about two years. I was walking down the street and all of a sudden my body took over, I dropped into a deep Hoko no Kamae which quickly transitioned into a back roll on the street. My coworkers were cracking up at me and I said something to the affect, "Dunno what the hell came over me..." That only made them laugh harder as they pointed behind me...I turned to see a small parrot zooming away in the air. According to their account, the parrot shot out from a fence and was about 1/2 an inch from clipping my head when I dropped...cognitively I did not see the bird.

Now I don't know if that is similar, but it was a real world testament to the awareness that the training builds. To tie it back to eskrima for both our sakes Paul...the awareness is similar in ways to when you are flowing in Sinawali or Hubud and all of a sudden your training partner throws something at you out of left field and you respond correctly before you even *see* it comming. A different training methodology, and very different mindset, but similar effect. In BBT, you want to loose your mind and be almost extra corporeal (I know that sounds dumb)...in eskrima you are white hot focused on razing your opponent to the ground...at least that's my personal perspective.

Insight from a perpetual newb.


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## swiftpete (May 8, 2006)

My instructor had the test done with a live blade. I don't think hatsumi actually killed the people if they failed it though, the strike was done with intention, but if the person didn't move then the cut was pulled. I must stress that I'm not claiming to be an expert on the matter, I'm just going from what I've heard.
My instructor said that he wasn't actually told the test was going to happen, he was just told to meditate and then after a while just felt a hot feeling down the side of his head and rolled to find hatsumi was standing behind him.

Although I'm not 5th dan or even 1st yet, we do a lot of energy training in my class and I actually was tested for it last week. But I'm not at the stage where I think I'd pass every time, mine was done in a similar way to my instructors, we were all meditating at start of class and i just felt an itchy sort of feeling on the side of my neck. Felt it a couple of times, moved my head out of the way each time and didn't really think about it, but at the end of the class my teacher told me he had walked up behind me with a sword and did the cut a couple of times. Quite a cool feeling to be told that, but to be honest I could give no guarantees I could do it again. Maybe one day I'll be developed enough to feel every attack when blind to it, but definitely not there yet.


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## Tenchijin2 (May 8, 2006)

Swiftpete, who is your instructor? Last I heard Doron Navon was the last to take the test with a live blade, and that was many years ago.

Just trying to sort out facts, not trying to disparage anyone.


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## Kreth (May 9, 2006)

Tenchijin2 said:
			
		

> Swiftpete, who is your instructor? Last I heard Doron Navon was the last to take the test with a live blade, and that was many years ago.
> 
> Just trying to sort out facts, not trying to disparage anyone.


I'm curious too. I had heard the same thing.


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## Don Roley (May 9, 2006)

Let me chime in as well.

Swiftpete, did you hear this from your instructor? I know of many cases where students have told stories of their teacher that missed the mark. I remember the time that people were running around the internet saying that Hatsumi had been made a national living treasure in Japan. If they had asked Hatsumi he would have set them straight, but few people do in cases like that. From their standpoint, why bother to check?

So, maybe you should ask your teacher if you heard this story from a student.


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