# How hard is it to become proficient in weapons based martial arts compared to physical fighting ones?



## Flyingknee (Jun 25, 2021)

And would you recommend training in one weapon at a time or in more and how many?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 25, 2021)

That really depends on what weapon you are talking about. A bow and arrow is different than a gun is different than sticks/knives.

I would guess though that for most weapons (and the ones I've done all found this to be true) is that it takes about the same amount of time to be proficient. And certain weapons go well together, while others don't. For instance, if you do hema or arnis, you'll find that they teach you a couple weapons together and principles translate. I probably wouldn't recommend learning olympic fencing and iaido at the same time though, if your goal is to become proficient in one quickly, as those have different principles and what you learn in one won't easily translate to the other.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 25, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> And would you recommend training in one weapon at a time or in more and how many?


It depends on what you call proficiency, I suppose.  Anyone can learn to use a weapon in basic fashion, and if I get hit over the head by a baseball bat, it probably won't matter how proficient the person was who smacked me with it.

In the style of karate I study, there are three weapons as part of the kobudo, and several kata for all but one.  Proficiency in at least one weapon is required for promotion to black belt in our system, although by proficiency, we mean that the student can perform the kata, not that they are a deadly killer with it.

There is another kobudo associated with our dojo which I do not hold rank in, which has many weapons and nearly 50 katas.  I have no proficiency in any of those weapons.  I suppose I could learn them if I chose to.  It would probably take several years of dedicated study.

I hope that helps.


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## Flyingknee (Jun 25, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That really depends on what weapon you are talking about. A bow and arrow is different than a gun is different than sticks/knives.
> 
> I would guess though that for most weapons (and the ones I've done all found this to be true) is that it takes about the same amount of time to be proficient. And certain weapons go well together, while others don't. For instance, if you do hema or arnis, you'll find that they teach you a couple weapons together and principles translate. I probably wouldn't recommend learning olympic fencing and iaido at the same time though, if your goal is to become proficient in one quickly, as those have different principles and what you learn in one won't easily translate to the other.



I had in mind canes (particularly canne du combat) and knives in particular.


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## Flyingknee (Jun 25, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That really depends on what weapon you are talking about. A bow and arrow is different than a gun is different than sticks/knives.
> 
> I would guess though that for most weapons (and the ones I've done all found this to be true) is that it takes about the same amount of time to be proficient. And certain weapons go well together, while others don't. For instance, if you do hema or arnis, you'll find that they teach you a couple weapons together and principles translate. I probably wouldn't recommend learning olympic fencing and iaido at the same time though, if your goal is to become proficient in one quickly, as those have different principles and what you learn in one won't easily translate to the other.



I had in mind canes (particularly canne du combat) and knives in particular 


Bill Mattocks said:


> It depends on what you call proficiency, I suppose.  Anyone can learn to use a weapon in basic fashion, and if I get hit over the head by a baseball bat, it probably won't matter how proficient the person was who smacked me with it.
> 
> In the style of karate I study, there are three weapons as part of the kobudo, and several kata for all but one.  Proficiency in at least one weapon is required for promotion to black belt in our system, although by proficiency, we mean that the student can perform the kata, not that they are a deadly killer with it.
> 
> ...



By proficient I meant advanced/quite advanced (I probably should've just said so).


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 25, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> I had in mind canes (particularly canne du combat) and knives in particular.


I can't say much regarding canne du combat, but sticks and knives go very well together-it's what most FMA will focus on as well. The movements that you use for one are almost identical to the movements that you use for the other, with the main difference being range and tactical differences that you have to differentiate. Also certain strikes that are safe with a cane aren't with a knife. And you can learn both but you'll probably gravitate more towards one as personal preference. 

As to proficiency length: For most people the learning curve is about the same as it is for striking arts, from my experience.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 25, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> I had in mind canes (particularly canne du combat) and knives in particular


I can't speak to those weapons, so I will leave that to others.


Flyingknee said:


> By proficient I meant advanced/quite advanced (I probably should've just said so).


I don't mean to be blunt and I hope you take this the right way, but in my opinion, what you seek takes a lifetime.  I have been studying Isshinryu karate and its kobudo for 15 years now.  I hold a black belt and am considered and advanced student.  I do not consider myself one and I don't anticipate reaching that in my lifetime.

Put another way, there's no such thing as a free lunch.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 25, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> And would you recommend training in one weapon at a time or in more and how many?


For me I train one weapon at a time. For me Training is the path to application so I don't want to try to cram too much into my training schedule at once.  I rather train the staff 4 hours a week, Instead of training it only 2 hours a week. By being dedicated it to it, I can learn it faster in a shorter amount of time.  Even if I had an extra hour a on  those same training days.  I rather turn it into 8 hours of staff training instead of 4 hours of staff and 4 hours of daggers.

Keep in my this is just my training preference.  It's not a one size fits all


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## Flyingknee (Jun 25, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I can't speak to those weapons, so I will leave that to others.
> 
> I don't mean to be blunt and I hope you take this the right way, but in my opinion, what you seek takes a lifetime.  I have been studying Isshinryu karate and its kobudo for 15 years now.  I hold a black belt and am considered and advanced student.  I do not consider myself one and I don't anticipate reaching that in my lifetime.
> 
> Put another way, there's no such thing as a free lunch.



At what point did you gain a black belt? How many hours per week had you been training before that?


I don't see why you felt the need to use the free lunch idiom. I'm not under the impression that this could be achieved quickly nor have I written anything that would reasonably make you think otherwise. I guess you just didn't want to waste an opportunity to be moralistic.


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## drop bear (Jun 25, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> I had in mind canes (particularly canne du combat) and knives in particular
> 
> 
> By proficient I meant advanced/quite advanced (I probably should've just said so).



Go find a club that fights with sticks, pretty much.

Same as any skill. You have to do a thing.

For us unarmed. We can put a dedicated person in to a full contact fight in about 3 months. At which point they have a usable skill.

Advanced after that stage depends on the other guy.


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## donald1 (Jun 25, 2021)

Your question is a bit oooodd... weapons vd 'physical' fighting? I don't understand that... If I hit someone with a rokushakubo, I'm hitting them with 'physical' blunt force. This ain't no chi strike flowing through my weapon. But I digress...

As someone who has experience in both empty hands and weapons... in my experience... it all boils down to simply that... experience... weapon forms and hand to hand forms can be easy to do and effective, but you need to practice practice practice to be any good.


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## Flyingknee (Jun 25, 2021)

donald1 said:


> Your question is a bit oooodd... weapons vd 'physical' fighting? I don't understand that... If I hit someone with a rokushakubo, I'm hitting them with 'physical' blunt force. This ain't no chi strike flowing through my weapon. But I digress...
> 
> As someone who has experience in both empty hands and weapons... in my experience... it all boils down to simply that... experience... weapon forms and hand to hand forms can be easy to do and effective, but you need to practice practice practice to be any good.



And would you recommend training in one weapon at a time or in more and how many?


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 25, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> And would you recommend training in one weapon at a time or in more and how many?


It takes as long as it takes, and that varies from person to person, as well as over time for the same person. 
The deeper you want to dive into it/them, the longer it will take.
Train many, add complexity, add time.


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> For me I train one weapon at a time.


I will _train_ a couple of different weapons at a time (I find the change from one to the other keeps my interest and focus at a higher level) but l_earn_ just one, to, as you say, "dedicate" my meager learning skills to this one task.

Without prior MA experience, I think weapons are harder to learn than empty hand, since many empty hand TMA concepts and techniques lend themselves to weapons.  With this experience, you have a head start.




Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> sticks and knives go very well together-it's what most FMA will focus on as well. The movements that you use for one are almost identical to the movements that you use for the other, with the main difference being range and tactical differences


While the flow of FMA knife and stick are very similar, there are the differences you note, so for me, one at a time is preferred for _serious_ study. Although, learning both at the same time stresses the differences between the two and could be a positive learning experience as well.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 25, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> At what point did you gain a black belt? How many hours per week had you been training before that?


Five years, thrice per week, 2 hours per session.



Flyingknee said:


> I don't see why you felt the need to use the free lunch idiom. I'm not under the impression that this could be achieved quickly nor have I written anything that would reasonably make you think otherwise. I guess you just didn't want to waste an opportunity to be moralistic.


Best of luck to you.


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## Flyingknee (Jun 25, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> I will _train_ a couple of different weapons at a time (I find the change from one to the other keeps my interest and focus at a higher level) but l_earn_ just one, to, as you say, "dedicate" my meager learning skills to this one task.
> 
> Without prior MA experience, I think weapons are harder to learn than empty hand, since many empty hand TMA concepts and techniques lend themselves to weapons.  With this experience, you have a head start.
> 
> ...



How many weapons do practitioners of Arnis, Silat, Krabi Krabong and so forth actually study at a time? Do they end up specialising in one or two?


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## donald1 (Jun 25, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> And would you recommend training in one weapon at a time or in more and how many?


I've learned multiple weapon forms around the same time. Though in order to do that I did a ton of practice in my spare time. Personally I recommend focusing on one weapon at a time unless you just have so much free time your willing to spend training. 

Dirty dog gave a great response. The way I see it... if you can learn multiple weapons, cool? All the weapon forms I learned were from the same guy, so that was super helpful. 

Practicing multiple weapons can be fun... I have rokushakubo from goju Ryu. And I know kwandao form from a kung fu style. The reason why I'm mentioning these two weapons is because I have tried the kwandao form with my staff and even tried staff forms with my kwandao. Sone of the moves in bo forms don't transition well when your holding a top heavy kwandao. Its difficult but kinda interesting. Theres other weapons that are fun to switch as well. Doing a nunchaku form with tonfa or a staff form with an eku or a sai form with tanbo. I love seeing similar movements in weapon forms and stuff but you still wanna be actually good at the stuff as well. 

Doing multiple different weapons can be both fun, but also really challenging. Its a lot of work. I did a lot of training in my free time. I'd assume it would be important to know what your instructor thought.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 25, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> It takes as long as it takes,


This is the answer for all training of any kind from mental stuff to physical stuff.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 25, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> I will _train_ a couple of different weapons at a time (I find the change from one to the other keeps my interest and focus at a higher level) but l_earn_ just one, to, as you say, "dedicate" my meager learning skills to this one task.


lol give me a pencil, tell me that it's a weapon and I'll enjoy finding all the ways I can use it.  Weapon training and non-weapon training is like that for me.  My teacher used to get frustrated because I wanted to stay on the beginner form longer than he wanted me to.  My staff is my Mistress.  My wife an I walk every night right after dinner and I decided to do a little less than a mile of staff strikes.

My wife saw the staff and told me that I must want to walk alone lol.    But we got the walk in.  During that entire time I only worked on 2 strikes.  I'll keep working the staff until fighting with it and using it is easy and as effective as punching or kicking.  Once I get halfway of mastering those techniques at a "masters level" then I'll probably pick up either the spear, sword, or double daggers.  But I still have quite a way to go until I'm satisfied with the staff.  I don't feel like I'm strong enough physically.  I still need to work on my grip strength and wrist strength.  I've been really slack on those things.  Still gotta lose some belly weight as well.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is the answer for all training of any kind from mental stuff to physical stuff.


Of course it is. We should add a bit of code so any "how long will it take" question is auto-answered.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 25, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Without prior MA experience, I think weapons are harder to learn than empty hand, since many empty hand TMA concepts and techniques lend themselves to weapons. With this experience, you have a head start.


Also trusting the application is very difficult to do as well.  The fear that it may not work screws up a lot of people.  I could teach Jow Ga for free, show that it works, but when it comes to the student's turn to try and use it,  There's going to be that fear, and it's a hard one to get over.  With weapons, it's going to be even more difficult to master that fear.






If a person is trying to master that fear without a foundation then yeah it's going to be really difficult to learn a weapon in terms of application and functional use.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 25, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Of course it is. We should add a bit of code so any "how long will it take" question is auto-answered.


it'll be the best auto response ever


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 25, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Of course it is. We should add a bit of code so any "how long will it take" question is auto-answered.


Also, the assumption that black belt = mastery.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 25, 2021)

And as I'm sure many here have experienced, none of these last a month in actual training. It's not the fantasy they imagined, so they move on.


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## Blindside (Jun 25, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> I had in mind canes (particularly canne du combat) and knives in particular
> 
> 
> By proficient I meant advanced/quite advanced (I probably should've just said so).



As a FMA practitioner that would pretty much be standard training weapons for us.  If you are referring specifically to the French martial art of canne du combat and not a similarly sized stick, I can't help you there.

Anyway, those weapons are pretty much what we focus on and I have taken reasonably talented students from 0 to full contact stickfighting (and doing so well) in 5ish years.  I had one talented student who forced me to change my game to deal with him in less than three years and I don't suck at stickfighting.  But much of this will depend on having a school available for you to train at and whether or not they are a fighting school, there are plenty of FMA schools that will bang sticks and do cool drills and don't produce fighters.  Outside of testing yourself in fighting I have no metric for what "proficient" means.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 25, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Also, the assumption that black belt = mastery.


Not to take away any proud feeling for reaching a specific belt rank in a school.   As someone who didn't train under a belt system, belts ranks are just so unreliable that I don't factor them. The belt rank system has been greatly exploited.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not to take away any proud feeling for reaching a specific belt rank in a school.   As someone who didn't train under a belt system, belts ranks are just so unreliable that I don't factor them. The belt rank system has been greatly exploited.


They have their uses. But magical they are not.


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## Flyingknee (Jun 26, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> And as I'm sure many here have experienced, none of these last a month in actual training. It's not the fantasy they imagined, so they move on.



Oh and you're back. Keep your rude comments to yourself.


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## Blindside (Jun 26, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> How many weapons do practitioners of Arnis, Silat, Krabi Krabong and so forth actually study at a time? Do they end up specialising in one or two?



This again is dependent on style, some Filipino martial art styles are literally just a stick or just a short staff or just a knife, others like mine are very broad.  The overall curriculum contains; single stick/machete, single knife, double stick/machete, double knife, staff/spear, and flexible weapons.  Personally I spend my time on stick/machete, knife, double stick/machete, and staff/spear.  I can do and teach the rest but I am not good at them and don't have much intersest.  Our core curriculum starts with single stick/machete and knife and bulds from there so everyone has those two to a good level, then double sticks are taught, and then the remainder.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 26, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> By proficient I meant advanced/quite advanced (I probably should've just said so).


Okay, now we need to define “advanced.” What counts for advanced in my curriculum is different from what they expect in the one Bill’s trained in. And that only scratches the surface of how much that definition will vary.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 26, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> At what point did you gain a black belt? How many hours per week had you been training before that?
> 
> 
> I don't see why you felt the need to use the free lunch idiom. I'm not under the impression that this could be achieved quickly nor have I written anything that would reasonably make you think otherwise. I guess you just didn't want to waste an opportunity to be moralistic.


You seem to have interpreted Bill’s post as snarky. I don’t think it was. He was sharing his experience and how he views “advanced”.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Go find a club that fights with sticks, pretty much.
> 
> Same as any skill. You have to do a thing.
> 
> ...


For folks not familiar, the gym DB trains at had a pretty intense 12-week program for first fight prep. That 3 month point isn’t something you can achieve on 3-6 hours a week. Have to put in big work and stay committed.


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## frank raud (Jun 26, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> I had in mind canes (particularly canne du combat) and knives in particular.


As you are asking about an obscure form of martial arts, the first question would be is there a school near you? Second question is what do they say about how long it takes to be proficient? In 38 years of training martial arts, I've seen a demonstration of canne de combat once.

Knives? Do you consider proficient to be able to use one against an unarmed opponent? Give me five minutes, I will show you one grip, explain pointy end goes in other guy, repeat as necessary.  Do you consider proficient to be able to use a knife to defend against someone else armed with a knife? Suddenly things become much more complicated. What if they have two knives and know how to use them?  A simple question with no real answer. Learning a weapon is a skill to develop, and then a skill to maintain.  If as an example, you can be competent at at an art in 3 or 5 years, if you stop training, don't expect that after a 10 year period, you can pick up where you left off. Your skill level and timing will have dropped dramatically.  Find something you want to practice, and practice. How long it takes to get good is irrelevant.


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## Flyingknee (Jun 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> You seem to have interpreted Bill’s post as snarky. I don’t think it was. He was sharing his experience and how he views “advanced”.



In that case you should read the argument I made one more time...and that guy's post as well.


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## Flyingknee (Jun 26, 2021)

Blindside said:


> This again is dependent on style, some Filipino martial art styles are literally just a stick or just a short staff or just a knife, others like mine are very broad.  The overall curriculum contains; single stick/machete, single knife, double stick/machete, double knife, staff/spear, and flexible weapons.  Personally I spend my time on stick/machete, knife, double stick/machete, and staff/spear.  I can do and teach the rest but I am not good at them and don't have much intersest.  Our core curriculum starts with single stick/machete and knife and bulds from there so everyone has those two to a good level, then double sticks are taught, and then the remainder.



And what is the style you practice called?


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## drop bear (Jun 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Also trusting the application is very difficult to do as well.  The fear that it may not work screws up a lot of people.  I could teach Jow Ga for free, show that it works, but when it comes to the student's turn to try and use it,  There's going to be that fear, and it's a hard one to get over.  With weapons, it's going to be even more difficult to master that fear.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think that is a bit of a false experiment. It suggests that it puts people under real fear or stress but takes away options like cracking the guy with a chair or something.

So given those choices. I would run away as well.


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## Blindside (Jun 26, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> And what is the style you practice called?



Pekiti-Tirsia Kali

PTK is one of the more popular FMA systems in the world, its growth in the past 20 years is fairly ridiculous.

Attaching an overly dramatic hype video because it features my instructor and one of my training partners.


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## Flyingknee (Jun 26, 2021)

Blindside said:


> Pekiti-Tirsia Kali
> 
> PTK is one of the more popular FMA systems in the world, its growth in the past 20 years is fairly ridiculous.
> 
> Attaching an overly dramatic hype video because it features my instructor and one of my training partners.



Can you paint me a picture how much it has grown in the last 20 years then? And what do you think draws people to this style in particular?


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## Blindside (Jun 26, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> Can you paint me a picture how much it has grown in the last 20 years then? And what do you think draws people to this style in particular?



Part of the popularity has been driven becasue the head of the system has spent the past 30 years constantly touring and giving seminars.  Aside from being a really good martial artist he is very charismatic and has a gift of showmanship.  When I started in this art in 2004 there was only one or two instructors on the west coast of the United States, now there are 12 in my state from 4 different lineages.  It was an art that was largely in the Philippines and the US and now has expanded to many countries in Europe and Asia.  Mind you that is close to the growth of say BJJ in that time period but it is still pretty impressive. 

Part of the attraction is the functional end of the sytem, GT Gaje (Grand Tuhon, think grandmaster, same difference) has kept a focus on it being a fighting art and it not becoming something that sticks black belts on 10 year olds.  It has been widely marketed to police and military as practical for their needs and for better or worse some people find that "badass" affiliation appealing.  To me it is appealing because at its core it offers a system that moves between different weapon platforms with relative ease.


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## Flyingknee (Jun 26, 2021)

Blindside said:


> Part of the popularity has been driven becasue the head of the system has spent the past 30 years constantly touring and giving seminars.  Aside from being a really good martial artist he is very charismatic and has a gift of showmanship.  When I started in this art in 2004 there was only one or two instructors on the west coast of the United States, now there are 12 in my state from 4 different lineages.  It was an art that was largely in the Philippines and the US and now has expanded to many countries in Europe and Asia.  Mind you that is close to the growth of say BJJ in that time period but it is still pretty impressive.
> 
> Part of the attraction is the functional end of the sytem, GT Gaje (Grand Tuhon, think grandmaster, same difference) has kept a focus on it being a fighting art and it not becoming something that sticks black belts on 10 year olds.  It has been widely marketed to police and military as practical for their needs and for better or worse some people find that "badass" affiliation appealing.  To me it is appealing because at its core it offers a system that moves between different weapon platforms with relative ease.



Just how popular is Arnis/Kali/Eskrima in the Philippines? To which sport in the US would you compare it in terms of popularity?


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I think that is a bit of a false experiment. It suggests that it puts people under real fear or stress but takes away options like cracking the guy with a chair or something.
> 
> So given those choices. I would run away as well.


If cracking the guy with a chair is your preferred option then, it's your preferred offer because you believe that it will produce the results that you want in that situation as a result you have less fear about that failing you, which is why you decide to pick up the chair in the first place.  You trusted the "technique of picking up a chair and hitting someone with it."   You don't know if it will produce the results that you want, but you believe in the validity enough to try it.

With Kung Fu techniques.  The person must be able to use the techniques with that same believe and confidence.  It's difficult to be all in on a kung fu technique like that, the first time you try to use it.  It took one student 6 months before he got comfortable enough.  When I teach, one of the biggest problems is that students bail out of a technique because they think doing the technique will get them hit.


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## Blindside (Jun 26, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> Just how popular is Arnis/Kali/Eskrima in the Philippines? To which sport in the US would you compare it in terms of popularity?


Technically it is the national sport and it gets taught in various schools and universities but beyond that not very popular.  According to some Filipino instructors it is more respected as a martial art outside of the Philippines than it is within it.


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## Flyingknee (Jun 26, 2021)

Blindside said:


> Technically it is the national sport and it gets taught in various schools and universities but beyond that not very popular.  According to some Filipino instructors it is more respected as a martial art outside of the Philippines than it is within it.



And one last question (two actually) about it: What ages do the people that take part in Arnis competition tend to have...I mean is it common to see people in their 30's or 40's or even more?? I also wanted to ask if you happen to know how widespread Krabi-Krabong is in Thailand?


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## Blindside (Jun 26, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> And one last question (two actually) about it: What ages do the people that take part in Arnis competition tend to have...I mean is it common to see people in their 30's or 40's or even more?? I also wanted to ask if you happen to know how widespread Krabi-Krabong is in Thailand?



So there is the more popular sport version of arnis that is generally called WEKAF that is actually used in competition.  In my opinion it looks generally ridiculous and doesn't translate the martial art well.  But it looks like this: 




Then those of us who aim to do the more realistic end of the martial arts there isn't a widespread sport format, but the most common might be something like this which is a point scoring system similar to fencing.  



 or 



  and you would see stuff like this for stick as well.  But that is the formal competition sides of things, there is fortunately a growing pool of people and events where people are getting together and just fighting at a variety of levels.  That might look like: 




As for age for for the WEKAF competition I don't really know, I imagine it skews younger.  But for what I do the average age is probably 35 with a lot of us coming from other martial arts prior to FMA.  I know that the average age in my school is proabably mid-30s (I don't teach kids.)


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## Flyingknee (Jun 26, 2021)

Blindside said:


> So there is the more popular sport version of arnis that is generally called WEKAF that is actually used in competition.  In my opinion it looks generally ridiculous and doesn't translate the martial art well.  But it looks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks.
So you don't know much about the situation of Krabi-Krabong in Thailand?


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## Blindside (Jun 26, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> Thanks.
> So you don't know much about the situation of Krabi-Krabong in Thailand?


I know nothing.


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## drop bear (Jun 28, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If cracking the guy with a chair is your preferred option then, it's your preferred offer because you believe that it will produce the results that you want in that situation as a result you have less fear about that failing you, which is why you decide to pick up the chair in the first place.  You trusted the "technique of picking up a chair and hitting someone with it."   You don't know if it will produce the results that you want, but you believe in the validity enough to try it.
> 
> With Kung Fu techniques.  The person must be able to use the techniques with that same believe and confidence.  It's difficult to be all in on a kung fu technique like that, the first time you try to use it.  It took one student 6 months before he got comfortable enough.  When I teach, one of the biggest problems is that students bail out of a technique because they think doing the technique will get them hit.



Yeah. But he can't really towel up the instructor in that specific scenario because it would be pretty frowned upon. 

Where he might if it was some random Joe in a dark alley. 

So the instructor escalates. Of course the other guy is going to run. 

So the conclusion the instructor makes there. I think is false.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jun 28, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If cracking the guy with a chair is your preferred option then, it's your preferred offer because you believe that it will produce the results that you want in that situation as a result you have less fear about that failing you, which is why you decide to pick up the chair in the first place.  You trusted the "technique of picking up a chair and hitting someone with it."   You don't know if it will produce the results that you want, but you believe in the validity enough to try it.
> 
> With Kung Fu techniques.  The person must be able to use the techniques with that same believe and confidence.  It's difficult to be all in on a kung fu technique like that, the first time you try to use it.  It took one student 6 months before he got comfortable enough.  When I teach, one of the biggest problems is that students bail out of a technique because they think doing the technique will get them hit.


Best of both worlds.


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## Flyingknee (Jun 29, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> Best of both worlds.



Savate used to entail chair fighting as well.


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## Gyakuto (Jun 29, 2021)

Three years😐


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## Flyingknee (Jun 29, 2021)

Gyakuto said:


> Three years😐



Rrrreally?


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## AIKIKENJITSU (Jun 29, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That really depends on what weapon you are talking about. A bow and arrow is different than a gun is different than sticks/knives.
> 
> I would guess though that for most weapons (and the ones I've done all found this to be true) is that it takes about the same amount of time to be proficient. And certain weapons go well together, while others don't. For instance, if you do hema or arnis, you'll find that they teach you a couple weapons together and principles translate. I probably wouldn't recommend learning olympic fencing and iaido at the same time though, if your goal is to become proficient in one quickly, as those have different principles and what you learn in one won't easily translate to the other.


I've been practicing and teaching my version of American Kenpo for fifty years. I'm still strong and fast. As for weapons, I rely on mostly practicing open hand techs. But, that said, I do practice with double sticks. I practice for reality. If needed, I could always grab something that could be used like a stick, for a weapon. I always practice some stick techniques (single stick also) after empty hand. Don't worry about proficiency. If you practice every week, in time you will be proficient. Good enough to defend myself is the way I look at my art. I don't try to be the best in the world, I just try to be the best I can be for myself.
Sifu


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## Alan0354 (Jun 29, 2021)

I did not read the whole thread, my experience is really depends on how hard and how many hours you train everyday. Say if you spend 1 hour a day 3 times a week, then just one weapon, you barely have enough time for one weapon and condition your body.   BUT if you are dedicated and train like 2 hours and 5 days a week, then I would say you can train at least 2 or more.

The reason is from my experience ( not just MA and stick, but in life), a lot of them depend on muscle memory and training your nerve in response. It takes time to get that, it's not like you double the training a day and you can cut time in half. There comes a time of law of diminish return. You cannot push it.

Don't you ever notice if you train very hard and progress is slow, you take a week off and all of a sudden, you get better and actually can look at things in a different perspective and improve? Key is knowing when is enough is enough. Particular if you are old like me, over train means injuries. Train wise, not too hard.

I do weight training also, it is very common knowledge that if you are a serious weight lifter, you do one part of the body ONCE A WEEK. You give the body part plenty of time to recover. Like you do 5 days a week, you only spend one day in chest like bench press, flies and all, work hard, but that's it for the week, then next day, you do say legs, then bicep and tricep etc. etc. You do same body part everyday, you end up injure yourself.

I am NOT a MA or weapon expert by a long shot, but I do training ( mix in MA and weight training, MA more for aerobics) average 3 hours a week in the last 36 years. Believe me, I have my share of injuries. Neck, Back, knee, wrist, even foot. It doesn't get better as you age. Lately because of picking up cane fighting, I am up to 7 hours a week. My neck hurts, my right knee hurts and my carpal tunnel of my right hand gets worst...................

JMHO


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 29, 2021)

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> Don't worry about proficiency. If you practice every week, in time you will be proficient. Good enough to defend myself is the way I look at my art.


Perhaps you did not express your thought well, but I take exception with this statement.  Just because one can play a recognizable tune on an instrument does not mean one is a musical artist, or being able to brush stroke a readable ideograph make one a calligrapher.  Being just "good enough" is not part of my definition of following an "art."  It is contrary to the idea of art; certainly martial art.

The idea of constant striving for excellence, beyond being just "good enough," is one of the basic imperatives of MA.  To use those words means there is an end to the journey - "I'm good enough so I can stop further development."  If being "good enough" was enough, I'd have quit my MA practice 30 years ago.  But I'm still working along the endless path to the unreachable goal.


AIKIKENJITSU said:


> Sifu


Call me picky, but it is considered bad form (at least in TMA) to refer to oneself with a title such as this.  

Your MA background in how you were taught may have been different from others, but reconsider these two points.  Even the elderly (I'm soon to be 70) should be open to new ways of looking at things.


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## ap Oweyn (Jun 29, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> How hard is it to become proficient in weapons based martial arts compared to physical fighting ones?​And would you recommend training in one weapon at a time or in more and how many?


​I think it's really going to come down to how you define proficiency. And I know that I'm not the first to say that in this thread. Likely, I won't be the last. But I'm not trying to be pithy. You have to establish for yourself a metric by which you'll judge proficiency. Or find one that's been established that you can accept.

At the end of the day, that's all we have. Whether it's a belt system, a competition format, etc., all we can really do is identify a metric by which to judge our work. 

I went from taekwondo to Filipino martial arts personally. I went into a system that featured a belt system and worked my way through it. I competed in the WEKAF format that took a bit of a beating up thread. I earned a rank with a colour and a name (Lakan Guro). I studied other styles of FMA and incorporated them into my practice. I studied other related arts (e.g., Western fencing, JKD, etc.). But I have never, for all that, landed on a satisfactory definition of proficiency. Just a shifting and evolving series of metrics with which I'm comfortable, and the priorities that guide them.

What do I mean by the priorities? Well, when I was younger, I probably felt more confident of my chances in a knife fight. I was almost certainly wrong, but I felt more confident. Now, I view that weapons training as a personal challenge rather than a realistic preparation. And, ironically, in doing so, I might be more likely never to get stabbed with a knife.

How many weapons you train with at once depends as well. In FMA, there are certain baseline mechanics that enjoy commonality regardless of the weapon. (Yeah, edged and blunt weapons are fundamentally different and that's valid.) So in FMA, it's not unusual to learn stick along side knife, for instance. It's not uncommon to apply the same principles to the stick and to the machete, even though there are other principles that won't carry from edged to blunt and vice versa. Regardless of all that, the number of weapons you can effectively train is going to be dependent on the level of crossover. To what extent are you training staff concepts even as you're actually training stick techniques?

Some styles pointedly have very different approaches from one weapon to another. The jian in Chinese martial arts is very different from the dao (broad sword). Intentionally so. So the crossover might be less than in FMA, where commonality in principles is a stated priority.

That same logic holds when you think about going from empty hand to weapons. A kerambit has specialized applications, but at the same time, if you were a strong boxer, you'd be really dangerous with a kerambit in each hand. But put a polearm in your hands, and you might be as big a danger to yourself as anyone else. It just depends.

You set metrics for yourself. But your level of training and experience will inform your metrics. As will your priorities. For me, learning a form (kata, sayaw, whatever) isn't going to make me feel proficient. I'm going to want to know about application. Then you need a sparring format of some sort. And if you master that, there's always the argument about rules not reflecting reality. So how far are you prepared to go in determining proficiency? Hopefully not to the logical extreme. 

So explore your priorities, learn your lessons, establish your metrics, and test yourself. That's all there is, really.


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## Buka (Jun 29, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> Oh and you're back. Keep your rude comments to yourself.


I’m not sure how you’re interpreting  
those comments as rude.

I’m sure they were not meant that way.


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## Flyingknee (Jun 29, 2021)

Buka said:


> I’m not sure how you’re interpreting
> those comments as rude.
> 
> I’m sure they were not meant that way.



Vom.


----------



## Hyoho (Jun 29, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> And would you recommend training in one weapon at a time or in more and how many?


Speaking as the head of one Japanese school, licence holder of another and a kodansha in other weapon arts and professional instructor in Japan: Each weapon has it's own specifics and methods of use and body movement. To learn one weapon is like starting another art. There are only certain similarities. But if anything the problem is one weapon art bleeding into the other one as you try to progress. Will you ever be any good at it? Like hand to hand there are those that have natural ability and those that do it because they love it. Nothing at all wrong with the latter. We all should practice as a group and support each other.


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## Hyoho (Jun 29, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not to take away any proud feeling for reaching a specific belt rank in a school.   As someone who didn't train under a belt system, belts ranks are just so unreliable that I don't factor them. The belt rank system has been greatly exploited.


In Japan belts have zero to do with weapons when it comes to classical schools. Associations award belts.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 29, 2021)

ap Oweyn said:


> Some styles pointedly have very different approaches from one weapon to another. The jian in Chinese martial arts is very different from the dao (broad sword). Intentionally so. So the crossover might be less than in FMA, where commonality in principles is a stated priority.


I’m gonna say yes and no and kinda, to this.  The different weapons have different approaches, different techniques, etc., but with commonalities.  The better instruction that I have received, In the Chinese methods, focuses on the principles that power the techniques which makes it possible to recognize the commonalities.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 29, 2021)

Hyoho said:


> In Japan belts have zero to do with weapons when it comes to classical schools. Associations award belts.


I like it better this way.  One day someone asked me how can I tell who the senior students were.  I grinned and said "Easy. The ones who have been here the longest are usually the ones who do the best and appear to know what they are doing.  Those who have only been there for a short time still have trouble."   I thought it was a strange question

It's like everything else.  The skill at which people perform says a lot about their training and their ability.  The advanced student will never look like the beginner student.  There's no way to fool people when it comes to showing skill level.

Experienced fighters never look nor move like beginner fighters.
Experiences forms /kata performers never look like beginner performers
Experienced weapon's user never move or look like beginners

To me it's clear but to many Americans this is confusing and a belt is needed to  tell who is better and more skilled.  That's why stuff like this happens.  Even though he's pretending to be a beginner.  There are things that should be hints that make people question that he's a beginner even before they spar (roll).





I think belts often make people pay attention to the wrong thing instead of being observant about the movement of the person in front.  But that's just me.  I know that for some belts are a good thing.  I can accept that.  Pros and Cons to everything.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 29, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> Vom.


Vom?


----------



## ap Oweyn (Jun 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I’m gonna say yes and no and kinda, to this.  The different weapons have different approaches, different techniques, etc., but with commonalities.  The better instruction that I have received, In the Chinese methods, focuses on the principles that power the techniques which makes it possible to recognize the commonalities.


Yeah, fair. I guess a better way to say it might have been that, in FMA, the transferability of movement and principle from one weapon to another is an explicitly stated training objective. So, when you're learning a new weapon, its commonality to other weapons is explicitly referred to. 

Now, it could well be that you're about to say "yep, that's the same in CMA." At which point, I'll conclude that I should have said something other than CMA. I have no first-hand background in it. Just a lot of reading when I was younger. Based on what Hyoho said above, perhaps JMA would have been a better contrast.

But really, I suppose a contrast isn't really needed. My best bet was probably simply to say that it depends on the degree to which the teaching of new weapons is explicitly related to those that you've already learned.

I'm my own worst enemy sometimes.


----------



## Hyoho (Jun 29, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I like it better this way.  One day someone asked me how can I tell who the senior students were.  I grinned and said "Easy. The ones who have been here the longest are usually the ones who do the best and appear to know what they are doing.  Those who have only been there for a short time still have trouble."   I thought it was a strange question
> 
> It's like everything else.  The skill at which people perform says a lot about their training and their ability.  The advanced student will never look like the beginner student.  There's no way to fool people when it comes to showing skill level.
> 
> ...


I am not against the system and should now grade people in the association I belong to. I had taken 27 Dan grades in Japan and gave up taking any more at the age of 42. I simply wanted to practice more classical. The wording translated on my Menkyo Kaiden tells me "You still have lot to learn".

Someone bows and enters. One can immediately see by their deportment and dress who they probably are. It's not about how long you did it. Some love what they do and will never be particularly good at it. But a lot rubs off on them. We watch kids enter the system and among them are born fighters. As they work there way up through education practicing seven days a week they are the ones that get picked to fight. But still ever week there is a fight off to see who will be on the squad. For sure the main difference is no one pays to study. Even here where I am now in the Philippines MA is part of the education Phys/Ed curriculum. 120 students just waiting for this Covid to die down so we can get back to full time practice.


----------



## Flyingknee (Jun 30, 2021)

And the next related question: You start training in one or two weapons (which is what most people in this thread seem to advise), you reach a level that you're satisfied with and you move on to studying other weapons, how often do you then practice the first two so you don't loose the skills you've gained in them?


----------



## Gyakuto (Jun 30, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> Rrrreally?


Two, if you buy these magic beans from me.


----------



## Gyakuto (Jun 30, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Call me picky, but it is considered bad form (at least in TMA) to refer to oneself with a title such as this.


It’s Master Ken posting..American Kempo = Ameridote 😀


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 30, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> And the next related question: You start training in one or two weapons (which is what most people in this thread seem to advise), you reach a level that you're satisfied with and you move on to studying other weapons, how often do you then practice the first two so you don't loose the skills you've gained in them?


This, again, depends what level you're trying to maintain them at. I'll use empty-hand fighting skills as an analogy. If you want to be able to hold your own in some light sparring, that's a different level than being able to hold your own in a low-level amateur MMA match, which is a different level from being competitive in MMA, and so on. Just as each of those levels takes more time and effort to reach, they also take more time and effort to maintain. To stay competitive in MMA, you'd have to put in a lot of effort. If you're quite good, you might be able to maintain one of those other levels fairly easily with just some occasional sparring and ongoing fitness work.


----------



## wolfeyes2323 (Jun 30, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> And would you recommend training in one weapon at a time or in more and how many?


The difference is in your mind,  and related to Maai or distance and timing (interval) .  Weapons are a extension of the body,  the body most be taught First to express the intentions of the Heart/mind efficiently and effectively without thought,   or training with a weapon will leave you vulnerable in some environments .     In the book  "Heiho Okugisho"  The secret of high strategy , by Yamamoto Kansuke , Samurai (1501-1561) Translated by Toshishiro Obata, pg 50    
"If the Bo is learned first , it will help in the training and usage of other long weapons,  People who are learning to use long weapons must learn Bo first. Learning how to use the Bo will improve your body movement and your usage of other weapons"


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## Flying Crane (Jun 30, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> And the next related question: You start training in one or two weapons (which is what most people in this thread seem to advise), you reach a level that you're satisfied with and you move on to studying other weapons, how often do you then practice the first two so you don't loose the skills you've gained in them?


If you stop training, you will lose the skills.  Like everything.  So no, you don’t get to “move on to the next” if that means stop working on what you’ve already done. Not if you want to keep up that skill.

That can be a problem with training multiple weapons.  How much time to you have for your training, over the long haul?  Spread yourself too thin, it gets difficult to build and then maintain your skill.


----------



## Flyingknee (Jun 30, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> If you stop training, you will lose the skills.  Like everything.  So no, you don’t get to “move on to the next” if that means stop working on what you’ve already done. Not if you want to keep up that skill.
> 
> That can be a problem with training multiple weapons.  How much time to you have for your training, over the long haul?  Spread yourself too thin, it gets difficult to build and then maintain your skill.



With regards to your first paragraph: That's not what I think...quite the contrary actually...read my post again.

With regards to your second paragraph : That's exactly what I'm asking...why repeat it instead of trying to answer it (if you think you're able to of course).

......


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 30, 2021)

Hyoho said:


> Even here where I am now in the Philippines MA is part of the education Phys/Ed curriculum.


I wish this was the case in the U.S. school.  I think it would go a long way in correcting many of the social issues that are present in the schools here.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 30, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> With regards to your first paragraph: That's not what I think...quite the contrary actually...read my post again.
> 
> With regards to your second paragraph : That's exactly what I'm asking...why repeat it instead of trying to answer it (if you think you're able to of course).
> 
> ......


I'm not sure why you choose the eyeroll, just because someone (with likely more experience) gives an answer you don't like.

I'll reiterate both of FC's points: 

If you don't stay in practice, your proficiency level will drop. As far as I know (including from actual studies on the topic), that's pretty much inarguable. How much you lose, and how quickly, depends on how good you were when you backed off. The higher the level of skill (and the harder it was to attain), the more quickly it fades to a lower level. An elite athlete out for a few months loses more than I do, because what they do takes more maintenance.

Dividing your time among multiple weapons means you have less time to maintain each weapon. If you decide you're happy with your staff skill level and move on to practice knives (dropping the staff training), your staff skill degrades over time. If you work out a maintenance schedule for the staff (keep practicing a couple of hours a week, you have less time to commit to the next thing, unless you increase your total training time with each new weapon.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 30, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> With regards to your first paragraph: That's not what I think...quite the contrary actually...read my post again.
> 
> With regards to your second paragraph : That's exactly what I'm asking...why repeat it instead of trying to answer it (if you think you're able to of course).
> 
> ......


Then the answer is you need to train every day.  And you need to add more time to each session, so you can practice the new stuff too and not compromise the old stuff.

But over the long haul, that is not realistic for most people.  So the real answer is, you practice as much as your lifestyle allows, and you need to be satisfied with the results because there isn’t much you can do about it.  If your lifestyle doesn’t allow for more training, then that is all you get.  If you are not happy with the results, then maybe you are trying to do too many things for the time that you have available, and something needs to be jettisoned.

there is no simple answer to this.  Different people have different capabilities and different amounts of training time available to them.  The only simple answer is: as much as you can.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 30, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure why you choose the eyeroll, just because someone (with likely more experience) gives an answer you don't like.
> 
> I'll reiterate both of FC's points:
> 
> ...


This is especially true when taking the "Fast path" to learning things.  The longer path means it takes longer to be good, but it also means that there is no quality loss by stopping one skill set in order to get a higher concentration in another.  The other option is that empty hand techniques use similar movements as your weapon techniques.


----------



## Flyingknee (Jun 30, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure why you choose the eyeroll, just because someone (with likely more experience) gives an answer you don't like.
> 
> I'll reiterate both of FC's points:
> 
> ...



The issue wasn't that it was an answer I didn't like. The issue was that it was a non-answer answer. Try really hard to focus...


----------



## Buka (Jun 30, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> The issue wasn't that it was an answer I didn't like. The issue was that it was a non-answer answer. Try really hard to focus...


Flying Knee, you seek advice, yes? That presumably is why you joined this forum?


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## Flyingknee (Jun 30, 2021)

Buka said:


> Flying Knee, you seek advice, yes? That presumably is why you joined this forum?



Yes, as in coherent answers. You should try to focus as well...since you've joined this forum.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 30, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> Yes, as in coherent answers. You should try to focus as well...since you've joined this forum.


You're asking a non-question, which is why you got a non-answer. Technically asking any of us how often we practice our old weapons is something we can answer, but that answer provides no actual information. 

For instance: I practice my kempos about once a month now, since moving to a different art/focus. Sometimes more, sometimes less. I don't fence at all anymore, and have likely lost most of my skill over the past 6 years.

Does that provide any useful information to you? Because to me it doesn't seem like it would.


----------



## Flyingknee (Jun 30, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You're asking a non-question, which is why you got a non-answer. Technically asking any of us how often we practice our old weapons is something we can answer, but that answer provides no actual information.
> 
> For instance: I practice my kempos about once a month now, since moving to a different art/focus. Sometimes more, sometimes less. I don't fence at all anymore, and have likely lost most of my skill over the past 6 years.
> 
> Does that provide any useful information to you? Because to me it doesn't seem like it would.



It certainly does. And I certainly was NOT asking a non question my friend.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 30, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> It certainly does. And I certainly was NOT asking a non question my friend.


If you genuinely think that my habits listed above, without having any idea of what my goals were, what my current goals are, what my level were in either art, how much time I spend on my current art, what the quality of any of those practices are, and how much free time I have, provides you with useful information I don't think there's a purpose in continuing this. There are just too many variables for that information to meaningfully guide you at all.


----------



## Flyingknee (Jun 30, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> If you genuinely think that my habits listed above, without having any idea of what my goals were, what my current goals are, what my level were in either art, how much time I spend on my current art, what the quality of any of those practices are, and how much free time I have, provides you with useful information I don't think there's a purpose in continuing this. There are just too many variables for that information to meaningfully guide you at all.



It's certainly better than the non-answer above. And if you don't think there's a purpose in continuing this then...don't.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 30, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> The issue wasn't that it was an answer I didn't like. The issue was that it was a non-answer answer. Try really hard to focus...


Nice attitude. Insults, however oblique, dont further your cause. Both his post and mine do actually answer your question.


----------



## Flyingknee (Jun 30, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Nice attitude. Insults, however oblique, dont further your cause. Both his post and mine do actually answer your question.



No oblique insults and no, they don't answer my question.


----------



## Flyingknee (Jun 30, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Nice attitude. Insults, however oblique, dont further your cause. Both his post and mine do actually answer your question.



Your emoticons are certainly oblique insults. I guess the cat just got your tongue.


----------



## ap Oweyn (Jun 30, 2021)

Add me to the list of people baffled by your attitude. I feel like you're looking for a precise formula to address a question that's full of vague definitions and personal interpretations. There's no magic answer that details precisely how many hours, what sequence, etc. that would require. Because what you asked was about the abstract idea of proficiency. Define it in concrete terms and you might have something to work with. How do you define proficiency and how are you measuring it? Start there and you might get more precise answers.


----------



## Flyingknee (Jun 30, 2021)

ap Oweyn said:


> Add me to the list of people baffled by your attitude. I feel like you're looking for a precise formula to address a question that's full of vague definitions and personal interpretations. There's no magic answer that details precisely how many hours, what sequence, etc. that would require. Because what you asked was about the abstract idea of proficiency. Define it in concrete terms and you might have something to work with. How do you define proficiency and how are you measuring it? Start there and you might get more precise answers.



I'll add you to the list of people I don't want to hear from then.


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## Buka (Jun 30, 2021)

Fellas, cut Flying Knee some slack, he's new here.

Tell ya what, Flying Knee, if you ever vacation on Maui I'll hook you up with some guys that train the weapons your interested in. For free, they just train.

I'll even meet you at the airport.


----------



## Flyingknee (Jun 30, 2021)

Buka said:


> Fellas, cut Flying Knee some slack, he's new here.
> 
> Tell ya what, Flying Knee, if you ever vacation on Maui I'll hook you up with some guys that train the weapons your interested in. For free, they just train.
> 
> I'll even meet you at the airport.



I'm not sure....


----------



## ap Oweyn (Jun 30, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> I'll add you to the list of people I don't want to hear from then.


That's your call. But the questions I asked and the suggestions I made were sincere. I genuinely believe that clarifying those things is the key to as concrete an answer as you're going to get. And as for your attitude, I said I was baffled. And I stand by that. I'm confused by it. I genuinely think people are telling you what you need to hear. But by all means, build your list. I just think you're going to find that you consigned a lot of very useful voices to that list, which will damage your cause in the long run. A thing can be what you didn't want to hear without being the wrong answer.


----------



## Flyingknee (Jun 30, 2021)

ap Oweyn said:


> That's your call. But the questions I asked and the suggestions I made were sincere. I genuinely believe that clarifying those things is the key to as concrete an answer as you're going to get. And as for your attitude, I said I was baffled. And I stand by that. I'm confused by it. I genuinely think people are telling you what you need to hear. But by all means, build your list. I just think you're going to find that you consigned a lot of very useful voices to that list, which will damage your cause in the long run. A thing can be what you didn't want to hear without being the wrong answer.



I thought you were done with this thread.


----------



## ap Oweyn (Jun 30, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> I thought you were done with this thread.


Did I say as much? I said it was your call whether you wanted to listen. Nothing more.


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## Flyingknee (Jun 30, 2021)

ap Oweyn said:


> Did I say as much? I said it was your call whether you wanted to listen. Nothing more.



Byeee, big man. Byeee.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 30, 2021)

ap Oweyn said:


> Did I say as much? I said it was your call whether you wanted to listen. Nothing more.


Nah, he decided you were done with the thread so you must be done with it.


----------



## Flyingknee (Jun 30, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Nah, he decided you were done with the thread so you must be done with it.



Yes.


----------



## Flyingknee (Jun 30, 2021)




----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 30, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> I thought you were done with this thread.


Because you don't actually read. You just rant about what you think was said.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 30, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> Yes.


You're adorable.


----------



## Flyingknee (Jun 30, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> You're adorable.



Unlike others.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jun 30, 2021)

I started with a weapon based art (FMA - Modern Arnis) and later picked up Balintawak. 
I am one of the seniors of the later, and one of two specially asked to teach and carry on for the Grandmaster who taught us personally. 
..
I like weapons, I like how they teach movement. 
..
There are similarities. There was differences or optimization. 

Thrusting / Piercing weapons have certain attributes. 
Slashing have other attributes. 
Chopping & Bludgeoning have very similar attributes with very different weapons, 
..
Body work can be optimized for each
Hand position and techniques can also be optimized. 
So very much similar and very much different. 
One cannot say the one without the other. 

..

As to teaching and then moving on, then just go get your belt or stripe or patch for that weapon and then move on.
Your Skill Set would at best stay close, and normally would decrease over time with lack of timing and precision and practice. 
Staying in the game, is important. Of course one can have a favorite and practice that one more. That is human nature. 

...


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jun 30, 2021)

TL;Dr read for all the replies, but i would reccomend one, but youd probbly find a lot of places that do more than one may move you onto the next one pending how well you do, and previously stated some use similar in principles weapons back to back and may opt for the safer weapon first out of the two.    Say a knife and a stick.    A stick is safer than a knife, and some may start you off with a stick with full intention you will only use a knife once confident in the basics.

Its honestly quickr and better to get good at one thing if you focus on that one thing, its why people tend to break down training into compotent parts now and then and work on potetionally lacking compotent parts.   Best example that comes to mind is say spending a week just doing drawing practise for pistols.

Edit:  I would say in my view, you may become more competitive with weapons quicker just in general.  The fact a knife is a fair bit more lethal [than fists] tends to lead to some disuasion about getting cut by it.

Addendum:  I forgot the economic aspect to this, just know financies is a reason for some things as well.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 30, 2021)

Rat said:


> TL;Dr read for all the replies, but i would reccomend one, but youd probbly find a lot of places that do more than one may move you onto the next one pending how well you do, and previously stated some use similar in principles weapons back to back and may opt for the safer weapon first out of the two.    Say a knife and a stick.    A stick is safer than a knife, and some may start you off with a stick with full intention you will only use a knife once confident in the basics.
> 
> Its honestly quickr and better to get good at one thing if you focus on that one thing, its why people tend to break down training into compotent parts now and then and work on potetionally lacking compotent parts.   Best example that comes to mind is say spending a week just doing drawing practise for pistols.
> 
> ...


Do you have any experience with knives/sticks/pistols that you're drawing those recommendations from?


----------



## Flyingknee (Jul 1, 2021)

Rat said:


> TL;Dr read for all the replies, but i would reccomend one, but youd probbly find a lot of places that do more than one may move you onto the next one pending how well you do, and previously stated some use similar in principles weapons back to back and may opt for the safer weapon first out of the two.    Say a knife and a stick.    A stick is safer than a knife, and some may start you off with a stick with full intention you will only use a knife once confident in the basics.
> 
> Its honestly quickr and better to get good at one thing if you focus on that one thing, its why people tend to break down training into compotent parts now and then and work on potetionally lacking compotent parts.   Best example that comes to mind is say spending a week just doing drawing practise for pistols.
> 
> ...



Great answer (especially by the standards of this forum).


----------



## Flyingknee (Jul 1, 2021)

Rat said:


> TL;Dr read for all the replies, but i would reccomend one, but youd probbly find a lot of places that do more than one may move you onto the next one pending how well you do, and previously stated some use similar in principles weapons back to back and may opt for the safer weapon first out of the two.    Say a knife and a stick.    A stick is safer than a knife, and some may start you off with a stick with full intention you will only use a knife once confident in the basics.
> 
> Its honestly quickr and better to get good at one thing if you focus on that one thing, its why people tend to break down training into compotent parts now and then and work on potetionally lacking compotent parts.   Best example that comes to mind is say spending a week just doing drawing practise for pistols.
> 
> ...



And please ignore Monkey Turned Wolf...


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 1, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> Great answer (especially by the standards of this forum).


Except that - based on his past discussions of his own experience - it's mostly based on internet research, rather than experience or review of actual studies of the topics involved. But you've previously made it clear you don't really care for knowledge unless it comes the way you want it to.


----------



## Flyingknee (Jul 1, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Except that - based on his past discussions of his own experience - it's mostly based on internet research, rather than experience or review of actual studies of the topics involved. But you've previously made it clear you don't really care for knowledge unless it comes the way you want it to.



Emphasis on what I wrote in brackets.


----------



## Stablades86 (Jul 1, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> And would you recommend training in one weapon at a time or in more and how many?


It depends on the person. Nunchakus, Chinese broad swords, Katana, and Bo staff came easy to me. I'm self taught so I really pushed my self. Took as few as 4 months to be proficient. I'm working on kamas, 3 sectional, and rope dart currently.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 1, 2021)

Stablades86 said:


> It depends on the person. Nunchakus, Chinese broad swords, Katana, and Bo staff came easy to me. I'm self taught so I really pushed my self. Took as few as 4 months to be proficient. I'm working on kamas, 3 sectional, and rope dart currently.


What is your measure for proficiency? And what was your goal?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 1, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> Emphasis on what I wrote in brackets.


Emphasis on the last part of my post.


----------



## Flyingknee (Jul 1, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Emphasis on the last part of my post.



The deluded part? No thanks.


----------



## Flyingknee (Jul 1, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Emphasis on the last part of my post.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 1, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Do you have any experience with knives/sticks/pistols that you're drawing those recommendations from?


Define experience, because the lack of holster i have for any airsoft pistol really does hamper any ability to do drawing practise.     (for any weapon actually, training knives dont tend to come with sheaths, institutional problem there, i know )

When/If we determine what experience here is, i can answer.  





gpseymour said:


> Except that - based on his past discussions of his own experience - it's mostly based on internet research, rather than experience or review of actual studies of the topics involved. But you've previously made it clear you don't really care for knowledge unless it comes the way you want it to.


Thats dishonest, its from internet research AND swinging broom handles in the back garden.  


Hardly anyone cites any studies either, i dont think there are many actual studies into many martial arts concepts etc, and if there are, no ones linked me to them or they are behind a paywall or are more for the police/military so not really useful for civlian digestion.             
Without going onto a 2 hour essay tangent rant on this.  I dont think anyones actually given me studies, they always go "studies have shown" or "the science shows us" and doesnt actually cite the source.   I have not seen any study or statistic on concussions or linked about concussions in boxing yet people still go "Studies have shown" x100 without linking the actual piece.    Its poor science at best, fradulent at worst.

Some people may have but its so far and few between that i have probbly forgotten it.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 1, 2021)

Rat said:


> Define experience, because the lack of holster i have for any airsoft pistol really does hamper any ability to do drawing practise.     (for any weapon actually, training knives dont tend to come with sheaths, institutional problem there, i know )
> 
> When/If we determine what experience here is, i can answer.


Have you trained with knives, or sticks, with an actual instructor? What art have you trained in that involves weapons, and how long have you been training that art?

Have you been to a shooting range with a pistol that you have to draw, and taken classes on gun safety/how to shoot with an actual instructor? There are a lot of different types of classes in that regard, so just listing the ones that you've done should be fine.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 1, 2021)

Rat said:


> Hardly anyone cites any studies either, i dont think there are many actual studies into many martial arts concepts etc, and if there are, no ones linked me to them or they are behind a paywall or are more for the police/military so not really useful for civlian digestion.
> Without going onto a 2 hour essay tangent rant on this.  I dont think anyones actually given me studies, they always go "studies have shown" or "the science shows us" and doesnt actually cite the source.   I have not seen any study or statistic on concussions or linked about concussions in boxing yet people still go "Studies have shown" x100 without linking the actual piece.    Its poor science at best, fradulent at worst.
> 
> Some people may have but its so far and few between that i have probbly forgotten it.


Here you go:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00913847.2020.1856631
and A Neurosurgeon’s Guide to Sports-related Head Injury

The relevant part of that second (not article, but source that cite's articles: 


> According to the _Journal of Combative Sport_, from January of 1960 to August of 2011, there were 488 boxing-related deaths. The journal attributes 66 percent of these deaths to head, brain or neck injuries; one was attributed to a skull fracture.
> There are boxers with minimal involvement and those that are so severely affected that they require institutional care. There are some boxers with varying degrees of speech difficulty, stiffness, unsteadiness, memory loss, and inappropriate behavior. In several studies, 15-40 percent of ex-boxers have been found to have symptoms of chronic brain injury. Most of these boxers have mild symptoms. Recent studies have shown that most professional boxers (even those without symptoms) have some degree of brain damage.



The issue with actually quoting the sources to read though, which you might notice with the first one, or if you look at the links in the second-they cost money to read. So while one person may have an account that allows them to read it (my old school account still works, and provides a database), other people can't access those databases or read the articles in question. Which is fine if you're in a scholarly forum with other people that you know have access to the same databases/sites. But doesn't work as well in a forum like this.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 1, 2021)

Rat said:


> Define experience, because the lack of holster i have for any airsoft pistol really does hamper any ability to do drawing practise.     (for any weapon actually, training knives dont tend to come with sheaths, institutional problem there, i know )
> 
> When/If we determine what experience here is, i can answer.
> 
> ...


There are plenty of studies about human skill learning, and that's the base of what we're talking about.


----------



## Flyingknee (Jul 1, 2021)

Rat said:


> Define experience, because the lack of holster i have for any airsoft pistol really does hamper any ability to do drawing practise.     (for any weapon actually, training knives dont tend to come with sheaths, institutional problem there, i know )
> 
> When/If we determine what experience here is, i can answer.
> 
> ...



Just ignore the trolls in this thread.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 1, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Have you trained with knives, or sticks, with an actual instructor? What art have you trained in that involves weapons, and how long have you been training that art?
> 
> Have you been to a shooting range with a pistol that you have to draw, and taken classes on gun safety/how to shoot with an actual instructor? There are a lot of different types of classes in that regard, so just listing the ones that you've done should be fine.


I wouldnt call that "do i have any experience" thats "do i have any offical instruction", in which case, no for weapons (cant find it anyway) and no for pistols (cant find it anyway)

But, i have practised with stick and knife, and i have spordically done shooting when avalible with legal firearms for my country.  I have done force on force for neither, but some "arts" done inclide force on force training or nomially do it.   And the bulk of tactical shooting instruction is not force on force as far as i can tell.      I dont think anyones going to argue that a knife is more lethal than a fist, if they wernt there wouldnt be two seperate crimes to if you stabbed somone comapared to punching.  (GBH and ABH/Assaualt respectively where i am)

the statement of instruction brings me to the final point, not all instruction is equal, and several "arts" dont do force on force, and dont do training methods others do and vice versa.  Would me seeking offical isntruction in a "art" validate or invalidate anything i have written more or less?     You are effectively doing the same thing, you are just training somone for the privilage to be told how to bash somones head in with a stick. (in other words, their hints and tricks)   And what explitly would it validate or invalidate?   I made no statemnt on a specfic "art", so i am not coming from the base of knowledge anyone in said "art" would have.     Id only be able to comment on said "art" if i did it, and qualfiications would only relate to that.   I made a general statement more on general information i have found scanning articles etc and doing things on my own. 

Hopefulyl that got the point across, i forgot how to combine it at points.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 1, 2021)

Rat said:


> I wouldnt call that "do i have any experience" thats "do i have any offical instruction", in which case, no for weapons (cant find it anyway) and no for pistols (cant find it anyway)
> 
> But, i have practised with stick and knife, and i have spordically done shooting when avalible with legal firearms for my country.  I have done force on force for neither, but some "arts" done inclide force on force training or nomially do it.   And the bulk of tactical shooting instruction is not force on force as far as i can tell.      I dont think anyones going to argue that a knife is more lethal than a fist, if they wernt there wouldnt be two seperate crimes to if you stabbed somone comapared to punching.  (GBH and ABH/Assaualt respectively where i am)
> 
> ...


Ok cool, so no actual experience, and not even any pressure testing. Just wasn't sure if that had changed.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 1, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> There are plenty of studies about human skill learning, and that's the base of what we're talking about.


The issue was the citation and linking to them and the consistency in doing so.     Not directly related to this thread, i dont know if any sources were linked or not, nor have i read the entire thing but its besides my general point.     I have seen plenty of "studies have shown" with no actual citation to a reliable source if any source.     

(and i am getting around to replying to monkies post on that)


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 1, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Ok cool, so no actual experience, and not even any pressure testing. Just wasn't sure if that had changed.


No, i have experience[Per definition], what i dont have is offical paid for instruction.   

Definition(s) of expereince from dictionaries i use:





__





						experience_1 noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com
					

Definition of experience_1 noun in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. Meaning, pronunciation, picture, example sentences, grammar, usage notes, synonyms and more.




					www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com
				



[uncountable] the knowledge and skill that you have gained through doing something for a period of time; the process of gaining this









						experience
					

1. (the process of getting) knowledge or skill from doing, seeing, or feeling…




					dictionary.cambridge.org
				



(the process of getting) knowledge or skill from doing, seeing, or feeling things:

I will not persue semantics any further.





Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> The issue with actually quoting the sources to read though, which you might notice with the first one, or if you look at the links in the second-they cost money to read. So while one person may have an account that allows them to read it (my old school account still works, and provides a database), other people can't access those databases or read the articles in question. Which is fine if you're in a scholarly forum with other people that you know have access to the same databases/sites. But doesn't work as well in a forum like this.


No real rebuttal, i agree with the point.  I know the issues of sourcing and finding them, but those issues existing doesnt mean its not proper to cite sources.     Ok that doesnt sound right in my head, but what ever i dont want to spend anymore time on this.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 1, 2021)

Rat said:


> No, i have experience[Per definition], what i dont have is offical paid for instruction.
> 
> Definition(s) of expereince from dictionaries i use:
> 
> ...


Yes, but reading articles and practicing by yourself does not provide knowledge or skill. By the same logic that me reading articles and practicing to swim on land does not provide experience in swimming. I agree on no more time on this though. Really I just wanted to check to see if anything had changed, or if you are still providing advice, in a way that makes it sound like you know you are doing, without having done anything.


----------



## Flyingknee (Jul 1, 2021)

With regards to studies, there is a replication problem in research and it's a HUGE problem. It's big even in the hard sciences let alone in social science.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 1, 2021)

Rat said:


> The issue was the citation and linking to them and the consistency in doing so.     Not directly related to this thread, i dont know if any sources were linked or not, nor have i read the entire thing but its besides my general point.     I have seen plenty of "studies have shown" with no actual citation to a reliable source if any source.
> 
> (and i am getting around to replying to monkies post on that)


I wasn't talking about citaiton. It's more about the habit of where the information comes from. YouTube information is a poor substitute for doing some actual research on a topic. Sometimes that research is experiential, sometimes it academic.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 1, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> With regards to studies, there is a replication problem in research and it's a HUGE problem. It's big even in the hard sciences let alone in social science.


Yes, there is. Using nothing as an alternative source is worse.


----------



## Flyingknee (Jul 1, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Yes, there is. Using nothing as an alternative source is worse.


 I wasn't talking to you...


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 1, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> I wasn't talking to you...


Perhaps you're not aware how public forums work.


----------



## Flyingknee (Jul 1, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Perhaps you're not aware how public forums work.



Perhaps you're unimportant....


----------



## John dye (Jul 1, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> And would you recommend training in one weapon at a time or in more and how many?


It is easier to become proficient with your hands then a weapon you cannot fully practice with weapons forms just give you a base and reminders proficiency can only be gained in combat and its profiency or death unlike. Hand to Hand no tap outs. As for how many weapons. 18 was limit @ shaolin. But many are variations. Short mid long range.  So knife. Sword spear. Or today hand or stick knife gun.  More then two very difficult to master. But you should have three ranges. No different then. Jujitsu Boxing kickboxing 
Philipino arts are very weapons based and profficient much more then traditional kungfu or karate. Silat is also good. Indonesian arts


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## drop bear (Jul 1, 2021)

Rat said:


> Define experience, because the lack of holster i have for any airsoft pistol really does hamper any ability to do drawing practise.     (for any weapon actually, training knives dont tend to come with sheaths, institutional problem there, i know )
> 
> When/If we determine what experience here is, i can answer.
> 
> ...



I am getting my cold steel rubber knife sheath 3d printed hopefully. I will let you know how that works out.

Otherwise. Training folders will allow you to train draw options. (Which seems to get used a bit in dog brothers fights)

And yes that is the irony of asking for weapons experience. Where it is the subject in which it is most likely whole systems are drawing their experience from who knows where. Because not a lot of people out there in weapons fights.

I did about 3 years of hocks weapons systems. And it didn't really help me with real weapons fights. Sort of.

I could have taken some of the simpler stuff and drilled live and been a lot better off. Rather than the new cool tricks that tended to be pushed forward.

In other words. Go find a friend, a couple of foam bats and some headgear.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 1, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Yes, but reading articles and practicing by yourself does not provide knowledge or skill. By the same logic that me reading articles and practicing to swim on land does not provide experience in swimming. I agree on no more time on this though. Really I just wanted to check to see if anything had changed, or if you are still providing advice, in a way that makes it sound like you know you are doing, without having done anything.



Play the ball. Not the man.


----------



## Blindside (Jul 1, 2021)

Practice drawing your folding knife under pressure, this could as easily be done with a firearm:





To use a Dog Brother Martial Arts term "In Fight Weapon Access." (And yes we are well aware that the scenario of going from stick dueling to firearm draw is silly, part of the training is being aware of what the other guy's hands are doing at all times, so this is training for both fighters.)


----------



## Flyingknee (Jul 1, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> Perhaps you're unimportant....


😇


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 1, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I am getting my cold steel rubber knife sheath 3d printed hopefully. I will let you know how that works out.
> 
> Otherwise. Training folders will allow you to train draw options. (Which seems to get used a bit in dog brothers fights)
> 
> ...




In fairness, i wouldnt be drawing anything from my hip etc, if anyone invaded my house it would be a grab it case, one of the reasons i cant do sheaf work is clothing options, the other is the lack of sheaths.      And id also have the thing in my hand if i thought somone broke in. 

force on force with weapons is 50/50, its harder to do it safely and in general harder to do it well than unarmed, and i can see logic in both ways, plus the type that would put pressure on you to draw is not 99% of weapon martial arts, thats more found in a self defence class.    although there is the middle between no sparring and sparring and thats paired kata.  

I really dont know where they draw it from, as long as you swing your preffered weapon around a bit and get a feel for it before you use it, your probbly on equal or better footing than most people out there, what is really the diffrence in doing that under supervison and hoping they know how to use it as a weapon, or just seeing what works for free?   Sure if you can do it safely you could throw some force on force in there, but a lot of shooting training doesnt have that and many people use firearms successfully.      Although pressure testing is normally done in shooting classes beyond basics, but a argument for anothe day of what comprable pressure testing is.  

Addendum:  although, good luck finding a target for a quater staff, your probbly going to wreak your heavy bag quicker.  Or the staff.


----------



## frank raud (Jul 2, 2021)

Rat said:


> Define experience, because the lack of holster i have for any airsoft pistol really does hamper any ability to do drawing practise. (for any weapon actually, training knives dont tend to come with sheaths, institutional problem there, i know )


If you buy a training knife that is an actual copy of a particular knife, they often do come with a sheath. If you are buying a generic training blade, what is stopping you from have a sheath made from leather or kydex to practice drawing from? Or using the sheath from a real blade.

As you acknowledge the lack of a holster is a definite shortcoming in your "training", the obvious question is why don't you get one?


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 2, 2021)

frank raud said:


> If you buy a training knife that is an actual copy of a particular knife, they often do come with a sheath. If you are buying a generic training blade, what is stopping you from have a sheath made from leather or kydex to practice drawing from? Or using the sheath from a real blade.
> 
> As you acknowledge the lack of a holster is a definite shortcoming in your "training", the obvious question is why don't you get one?



The few i have looked into dont, the only company i have found that do combos are benchmade, that is they sell training versions of some of their knives as a optional accessory with it, dont know if the real blades sheath would work for the training one though. (they may have discontinued that from my short searching to re check that while writing this)   Or if the training one gets a sheath. 

Its basically just sourcing, the cost and utility and actually finding one, and the fact id want one for a knife i own now or plan on getting as opposed to my generic cold steel one i got and i have no plans on getting that knife. (the cold steel one serves its purpose, with or without a purpose made sheath)   Sheaths in particular may run up a bit.      

I wouldnt call it a shortcoming, the draw isnt in my training criteria currently, as previously mentioned the type of knife isnt one you can quick draw, and retriving it would be opening a draw,  "thats my suitable for combat knife", the generic cooking ones would be retrived from either a draw or a knife block, so not really off my persons.   Not having a reliable way to carry it is annoying, and may turn into a shortcoming  but it currently isnt.     Anyway id be a moron not to take my knife to a potetional house invasion ready to go. 

Training it would be much better to say lay in my bed and go "oh no the house is being invaded"  open the draw, remove it from its pouch and draw the knife, retrive my torch and go.    although i have "played around" with it a little in regards to stabbing etc.    Correction tha tmay be better described as my "quick draw", actual training for it would just having the mindframe to deploy the thing before i need it or cant deploy it.  

Addendum: the training knives are age gated a decent amount here, and knife sourcing in this country is a pest now days, and "tactical" knives tend to be a primiem, i dont own many so any are somewhat precious to me.     Oh, by all means id get a sheath if i need one as well.   My clothing choices impacts my ability to carry such a thing anyway and caryring in public is unlawful here, so this is more a home defence context legally speaking.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 2, 2021)

Rat said:


> The few i have looked into dont, the only company i have found that do combos are benchmade, that is they sell training versions of some of their knives as a optional accessory with it, dont know if the real blades sheath would work for the training one though. (they may have discontinued that from my short searching to re check that while writing this)   Or if the training one gets a sheath.
> 
> Its basically just sourcing, the cost and utility and actually finding one, and the fact id want one for a knife i own now or plan on getting as opposed to my generic cold steel one i got and i have no plans on getting that knife. (the cold steel one serves its purpose, with or without a purpose made sheath)   Sheaths in particular may run up a bit.
> 
> ...



In that case just buy a mag light.









						Rubber Mag-light Flashlight
					

Rubber Mag-light Flashlight



					www.westernstageprops.com


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 2, 2021)

drop bear said:


> In that case just buy a mag light.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did not know they did them.  I wonder what other obscure things there are.    I tried to get a tomohawk trainer once, and rhe irony is the trainers were Id on sale, yet a actual knife wasnt listed as such.       no idea what came from that.


----------



## Hyoho (Jul 2, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> And the next related question: You start training in one or two weapons (which is what most people in this thread seem to advise), you reach a level that you're satisfied with and you move on to studying other weapons, how often do you then practice the first two so you don't loose the skills you've gained in them?


I scrolled down but cant find a post that actually tells us what you practice and who you are. My advice is as a professional in Japan for many years. Weapons art "all differ". At least in Japan they do. You will "never" reach a high level unless you separate them. Picking up this weapon that weapon is just playing with them. It would be like giving rank to a back yard slasher. I would guess from the name you chose you practice Chinese arts. Don't you have a sense of learning etiquette and decorum that goes along with learning weapons?


----------



## Flyingknee (Jul 2, 2021)

Hyoho said:


> I scrolled down but cant find a post that actually tells us what you practice and who you are. My advice is as a professional in Japan for many years. Weapons art "all differ". At least in Japan they do. You will "never" reach a high level unless you separate them. Picking up this weapon that weapon is just playing with them. It would be like giving rank to a back yard slasher. I would guess from the name you chose you practice Chinese arts. Don't you have a sense of learning etiquette and decorum that goes along with learning weapons?



???


----------



## drop bear (Jul 2, 2021)

Rat said:


> I did not know they did them.  I wonder what other obscure things there are.    I tried to get a tomohawk trainer once, and rhe irony is the trainers were Id on sale, yet a actual knife wasnt listed as such.       no idea what came from that.



Cold steel does them for the trench hawk. But it is a hard plastic trainer.


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## drop bear (Jul 2, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> ???


It's a linage thing.

Basically without the correct pedigree you are not skilled in weapons. 

I don't get it either to be honest.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 12, 2021)

drop bear said:


> It's a linage thing.
> 
> Basically without the correct pedigree you are not skilled in weapons.
> 
> I don't get it either to be honest.


Say that to a Chav Drug addict who just stabbed you to death with a £20 knife, or left you permenetly injured.        The sewing machine is quite a thing.


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## drop bear (Jul 13, 2021)

Rat said:


> Say that to a Chav Drug addict who just stabbed you to death with a £20 knife, or left you permenetly injured.        The sewing machine is quite a thing.



Yeah. But he probably attacked me wrong.


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## tim po (Dec 14, 2021)

Flyingknee said:


> And would you recommend training in one weapon at a time or in more and how many?


weapons training is handled differently over different schools and arts, and i don't much expect there is one right and a bunch of wrong ways. My feeling is that movement training is movement training, moving with a weapon is not so different where the principles of movement themselves are concerned, but a weapon changes some things. bad habits you might not notice in empty handed training may come to light when you wield a staff or sword, and in this way weapons training can inform your overall movement practice. likewise, refining your empty handed technique(especially footwork) will improve your ability to handle and learn new weapons.  

 i had a teacher once who would get 'into' a thing, whether it was grappling, sword, staff, throws or something else, we'd do that for weeks, sometimes months, and little else. then we didn't do it again for just as long. this back and forth actually worked well, as changing things up informed the learning process in other areas.


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