# Weapons: Artificially added or a part of the style



## MBuzzy

I'm starting this conversation as suggested by Astrobiologist here.  It does seem like a great discussion.

I currently train in Soo Bahk Do AND Haidong Gumdo.  My style of Tang Soo Do has no weapons in it, completely empty handed.  I personally feel that studying a solely weapon style in its entirety gives a much more full understanding and appreciation for the weapon.  It is quite obviously more than you could EVER learn by just learning a form or two.

So at your Dojang, do you use weapons, how are they taught?  To what depth are they taught?

And most importantly - Do weapons belong in Tang Soo Do?


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## JWLuiza

MBuzzy said:


> I'm starting this conversation as suggested by Astrobiologist here.  It does seem like a great discussion.
> 
> I currently train in Soo Bahk Do AND Haidong Gumdo.  My style of Tang Soo Do has no weapons in it, completely empty handed.  I personally feel that studying a solely weapon style in its entirety gives a much more full understanding and appreciation for the weapon.  It is quite obviously more than you could EVER learn by just learning a form or two.
> 
> So at your Dojang, do you use weapons, how are they taught?  To what depth are they taught?
> 
> And most importantly - Do weapons belong in Tang Soo Do?



I think weapons training could coincide with TSD training, but the Kobudo forms didn't translate as well as the empty handed forms and we now end up with.... very athletic bong hyung that don't have the depth of some of the kobudo kata....  I know at my school we added bong hyung in a very awkard fashion and we're still trying to figure out it's place in our training.


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## dancingalone

Anyone ever seen the Daniel Nolan Tang Soo Videos from Panther Productions?  As he performs the knifehand blocks in various hyung, his execution is very big & looping, almost like a figure eight by my recollection of years past.  He might have very sound reasons for doing this (I think it's pretty myself), but IMO this movement pattern would not fit the same motion as performed in basic kobudo with a weapon like tonfa or sai.  The same motions found in Okinawan kata reinforced those in kobudo and vice versa.


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## Blindside

dancingalone said:


> Anyone ever seen the Daniel Nolan Tang Soo Videos from Panther Productions? As he performs the knifehand blocks in various hyung, his execution is very big & looping, almost like a figure eight by my recollection of years past. He might have very sound reasons for doing this (I think it's pretty myself), but IMO this movement pattern would not fit the same motion as performed in basic kobudo with a weapon like tonfa or sai. The same motions found in Okinawan kata reinforced those in kobudo and vice versa.


 
I have no idea who you are talking about, but "knifehand" blocks performed on a figure 8 translate very well to bladed weapon application.


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## dancingalone

Within southeastern Asian MA, no doubt.  I'm speaking more from a kobudo approach. Yes, there are figure eight movements as it is a natural motion, but the patterns Mr. Nolan performed were introductory ones and from my martial tradition should be first taught as straight forward thrusts and slashes.


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## Montecarlodrag

It is difficult to say whether TSD incorporated weapons after the style was founded of before that.

All the styles of TSD I know use weapons. At least the Bong and knife. We do use Bong, knife, nunchaku and Katana. We even have Ho Sin Sul with weapons (knife).

Weapons are very ancient, its difficult to know their origin.


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## Yossarian

I know that GM Shin added weapons after he formed the WTSDA. This suggests to me there were none while he was part of the MDK.


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## astrobiologist

I figured I would let this build a little before I threw my two cents in again...

I am not the expert on whether or not TSD had weapons at the advent of the modern style.  But from what I've seen of modern day TSD weapons practise, I would have to think they were not.

This was my response in the previous thread:

"That baton-twirling mess is one of the reasons that a lot of TSD/TKD schools are looked at as McDojang. They bring in a few weapons that they don't have any kind of a curriculum for and they make up forms for them or take weapons forms that they've seen elsewhere and blend them. The students learn these and then think that they actually know the weapon. 

For instance, the McDojang I started at when I was a kid, Kim's Karate, taught 3 staff forms, a nunchaku form, and a knife form (when I was there at least). They didn't teach anything else about the weapon. There was no explanaition of movement, no basics, no sparring with the weapon, no application, no discussions about how weapons also teach skills for empty hands, and most of the movements were exagerrated. Now, having some Kobujutsu under my belt and a more anayltical approach to the martial arts, I've realized that what they were teaching is really lacking in martial application. So, pretty much, just baton-twirling...

Cross-training means actually delving into another art, not just adding some moves to your current system that you think may work or look cool in a form without having any knowledge of the technique."


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## MBuzzy

Montecarlodrag said:


> It is difficult to say whether TSD incorporated weapons after the style was founded of before that.
> 
> All the styles of TSD I know use weapons. At least the Bong and knife. We do use Bong, knife, nunchaku and Katana. We even have Ho Sin Sul with weapons (knife).
> 
> Weapons are very ancient, its difficult to know their origin.



Actually, It isnt' very difficult unless we are discussing the use of the term Tang Soo Do itself and more historical issues.  When GM Hwang Kee founded the Moo Duk Kwan in 1945, thereby creating Tang Soo Do officially, it was an empty handed art.  Today, Hwang Kee's organization (or his son's to be more precise) the US Soo Bahk Do Federation, still does not have any offensive weapons in its curriculum.  We do weapons defense, but no offensive weapons.

That says to me that as TSD organizations have separated and started independent organizations, those weapons have been added.  I am not sure how extensively the major organizations use them, but I have heard that there are some weapons forms at higher ranks.

So how much can you really learn like that?  It took me 2 years with constant training to be comfortable enough to use a live blade when training with a sword.  I can't imagine that these organizations are teaching one form, then putting live blades in the hands of students.....Let alone allowing them to cut.  

As for other weapons incorporated in TSD - there are several Korean weapons that are historically considered to be used in ancient Korea, now whether those weapons were imported from elsewhere or not is a matter of conjecture, although it is pretty coincidental how those neighboring countries used such similar weapons.  Many styles of TSD's weapons forms also look mysteriously close to some other styles!


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## Makalakumu

An interesting area of research would be to see what styles of kobudo were known or taught by Azato or Itosu.  My guess is that any styles of kobudo that are directly linked to our lineage would have a huge similarity to what we find in our empty handed forms.


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## JT_the_Ninja

We don't really practice weapons in my style, as far as I know.

We do have several bong forms (very basic at the start, but with increasing diversity of technique and complexity), but no bong sparring. We train in defense against knives and swords (and supposedly we're supposed to learn gun defense now). 

As to application of our bong forms, our instructors, and my sa bom nim in particular, very much stress the concepts behind movements. As far as my training has progressed, the bong for me is an extension of my hands with a few additional properties. I'm not so much concerned with being able to twirl a baton like a majorette (though I do practice, just for coordination-increasing purposes...and because it looks cool) as being able to defend myself, and that's really the focus of my school. In fact, we recently cut out all the flipping and twirling from our basic bong hyung, increasing the focus on focused, effective, basic techniques. 


@astrobiologist: I see you're from Pennsylvania...is the Kim's Karate you mention C.S. Kim? If so, you got the wrong impression or came in at the wrong time.


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## astrobiologist

JT_the_Ninja said:


> @astrobiologist: I see you're from Pennsylvania...is the Kim's Karate you mention C.S. Kim? If so, you got the wrong impression or came in at the wrong time.


 
There are two C.S. Kim's in the area.  Chun Sik Kim and Chung Su Kim.  I had trained under the latter for nearly 12 years.  My father trained under him for nearly 20 years.  A few years ago, a large portion of his instructors, schools, and students left him to get away from the greed and the politics.  He's suing them for the fourth time (three lawyers and three judges so far have told him he has nothing to sue for).  We were with that group for a bit while we started our own school and got things going for ourselves. 

I can't speak about Chun Sik Kim, who also has a Kim's Karate organization in PA, but Chung Su Kim's schools are known in this area as McDojang.  I see C.S. Kim and his sons around once in a while.  They were at a street fair in our town recently performing.  From the looks of it, they're still teaching the same stuff.  They have a few bong hyung, no applications, just movements.  Now that I'm studying Kobujutsu and learning more about the bo, I see how lacking the old bong hyung C.S. Kim taught me really are.    

I'm not trying to offend you J.T.  But with my 12 years and my fathers 20, I'm pretty sure we weren't in at "the wrong time".  And two decades is more than enough to get past an "impression".  I am thankful for what Chong Su Kim taught me when I was younger.  It was a pleasure to travel to Korea with him when I was a child.  I have some good memories from my training at Kim's Karate.  But it truly was amazing when I discovered how much more there was to the martial arts than the narrow vision that's shared at his schools.


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## seasoned

maunakumu said:


> An interesting area of research would be to see what styles of kobudo were known or taught by Azato or Itosu. My guess is that any styles of kobudo that are directly linked to our lineage would have a huge similarity to what we find in our empty handed forms.


 

Weapons are an extension of our hands.


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## JT_the_Ninja

@astrobiologist: Ah; I'd never heard of Chung Su Kim...I can see why that would cause confusion. I train at a Chun Sik Kim dojang...so that relieves me a bit. I've been training there for going on 10 years now, and never encountered anything to label it McDojang (from the teaching perspective...business models/practices are another thing). My sa bom nim in particular spends a good deal of time teaching application, once a student has mastered the basics of moving (have to try walking before you can learn what you can do with it). So I guess we don't have any issue.


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## astrobiologist

JT_the_Ninja said:


> @astrobiologist: Ah; I'd never heard of Chung Su Kim...I can see why that would cause confusion. I train at a Chun Sik Kim dojang...so that relieves me a bit. I've been training there for going on 10 years now, and never encountered anything to label it McDojang (from the teaching perspective...business models/practices are another thing). My sa bom nim in particular spends a good deal of time teaching application, once a student has mastered the basics of moving (have to try walking before you can learn what you can do with it). So I guess we don't have any issue.


 
Good to know!  I'm not here at MT to start battles (but I'm ready for them if they happen).

I'm not saying that all bong training currently used in TSD is bad, I'm just saying that from my experience many TSD/TKD schools that have staff forms have no other curriculum for the staff.  My old Jujitsu instructor, who also teaches TKD, told me that at his school for TKD they actually have a pretty decent curriculum of Bong Sul and Bong Hyung.  I never saw any of their training, but from talking to him it sounded like he had spent a lot of time training/learning technique and application for the staff.  I think that's the question here:  should weapons be part of a school's arsenal if they are only taught for the purpose of adding more forms but technique and application are not considered?  If the weapon is taught with technique and application in the curriculum, does it belong in TSD?

My answer to the first is No!  My answer to the second is Yes!  A good weapons curriculum blends very well with a study of TSD.


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## MBuzzy

While a good weapons curriculum does blend well and does compliment your empty handed technique well....I would question the "belong" part.  I mean, it can easily be integrated....but as it was originally intended, TSD was empty handed.  So it depends on your definition of "belong" I guess.  Hwang Kee obviously didn't see the need for it.  The individual instructors years later have incorporated it.  Many of which have added it for the "coolness" factor instead of the training factor though.


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## Makalakumu

Here's the thing, a good weapons program should compliment your curriculum.  It should flow from what you do with empty hand.  It should operate on the same principles.  If it doesn't then it's a separate art.  For example, when you take arnis de mano, you start with the weapons and then move into empty hand.  The weapons build the foundation of everything that you do so that when you move into the empty hand range, the very same principles you applied with weapons now apply with empty hands.  

The problem with adding weapons to TSD is that this kind of dovetailing is almost impossible.  I have never seen a weapon touched in a TSD dojang that didn't come from somewhere else and its use was completely different from its practice of empty hands unless that TSD dojang practiced the flippy dippy jump kicky weapon forms in sparkly gold dobaks.  

TSD was not conceived as a weapons art.  All of the weapons I've taught have been in a separate class that was devoted to their instruction.  I date not call it part of the art yet...

...and here's the rub...it goes back to my question I posed above.  TSD DID come from somewhere.  Okinawa.  TSD was shaped by Okinawans.  What if it were possible to discover a style of kobudo that Itosu Sensei or Azato Sensei practiced?  Perhaps this style of kobudo was at one time integrated into the teaching of the Te they practiced?  This isn't out of the question considering the fact that many Okinawan styles also dovetail nicely with kobudo.  

Craig and I had the change to visit Sensei Peter Carbone in Detroit MI.  He now the soke of a major Okinawan system of Kobudo and is currently building the new Honbu dojo in Detroit.  He is also perhaps one of the finest makers of Okinawan weapons in the world.  The masters from Okinawa order his weapons.

Anyway we drank his homemade booze and listened and asked questions.  One of the most interesting things he said was that all karate was ultimately weapon based.  He said that our skills with empty hand flowed from the use of weapons in exactly the same way that it does in Arnis.  IMO, if someone is really interested in adding weapons to a TSD or any Karate curriculum, then you need to explore that connection.  That is where you are going to find the real authentic connection that TSD has to weapons.


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## astrobiologist

maunakumu said:


> Craig and I had the change to visit Sensei Peter Carbone in Detroit MI. He now the soke of a major Okinawan system of Kobudo and is currently building the new Honbu dojo in Detroit. He is also perhaps one of the finest makers of Okinawan weapons in the world. The masters from Okinawa order his weapons.
> 
> Anyway we drank his homemade booze and listened and asked questions. One of the most interesting things he said was that all karate was ultimately weapon based. He said that our skills with empty hand flowed from the use of weapons in exactly the same way that it does in Arnis. IMO, if someone is really interested in adding weapons to a TSD or any Karate curriculum, then you need to explore that connection. That is where you are going to find the real authentic connection that TSD has to weapons.


 
Success!  The Okinawan Ryukyunote Kobujutsu that I am training in is coming directly from Sensei Carbone.  He is now my father's instructor and we are taking his approach to weapons and blending that with our Tang Soo Do.  We are also learning Isshinryu from Sensei Carbone.  Master Jay S. Penfil, who is instructing us in TSD, is also training with Sensei.  We will have Carbone at our school in about a week for a few days and then about two days after he leaves Master Penfil is coming down (yay!). 

I agree.  Sensei's weapons are amazing.  We have several of his bo, eku bo, nunchaku, tanbo, and sai.  Before too long we'll be bringing in tonfa, kama, and sword as well.  We are working from the beginning in his weapons curriculum.  He trained under Remy Presas in Arnis and is sharing that with us and his understanding of Okinawan weapons is amazing.  If anyone has a chance, check out Sensei's website
http://www.weaponsconnection.com/


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## Montecarlodrag

astrobiologist said:


> There are two C.S. Kim's in the area. Chun Sik Kim and Chung Su Kim. I had trained under the latter for nearly 12 years. My father trained under him for nearly 20 years. A few years ago, a large portion of his instructors, schools, and students left him to get away from the greed and the politics. He's suing them for the fourth time (three lawyers and three judges so far have told him he has nothing to sue for). We were with that group for a bit while we started our own school and got things going for ourselves.
> 
> I can't speak about Chun Sik Kim, who also has a Kim's Karate organization in PA, but Chung Su Kim's schools are known in this area as McDojang. I see C.S. Kim and his sons around once in a while. They were at a street fair in our town recently performing. From the looks of it, they're still teaching the same stuff. They have a few bong hyung, no applications, just movements. Now that I'm studying Kobujutsu and learning more about the bo, I see how lacking the old bong hyung C.S. Kim taught me really are.
> 
> I'm not trying to offend you J.T. But with my 12 years and my fathers 20, I'm pretty sure we weren't in at "the wrong time". And two decades is more than enough to get past an "impression". I am thankful for what Chong Su Kim taught me when I was younger. It was a pleasure to travel to Korea with him when I was a child. I have some good memories from my training at Kim's Karate. But it truly was amazing when I discovered how much more there was to the martial arts than the narrow vision that's shared at his schools.


 
I think everybody speaks depending of the way things developed for himself. We had a bad experience with WTSDA politics, but I still don't think or say bad things about Jae Chul Shin...

My school is under Chong Su Kim system. We affiliated with Him a year ago.
We decided to stay with Him because we saw very different and good things.
We have been members of ITF, WSTDA, WMDKTSD, and a few other. Most of them are more Tae Kwon Do than TSD, nothing related to true TSD.

We liked GM Kim because he is the opposite of a Mc Dojang, he does not sell ranks or certificates. I don't quite understand why you say that but I respect you opinion.
Chong Su Kim is going to come to see us training, to certify our ranks, and more important, to MEET Us. Nobody has done the same for us in the past, only Jae Chul Shin. It seems nobody cares about schools with less than 500 students ($$$), but Kim does care and He is going to travel from PA to Mexico with 7 of His senior members only to meet us, test two 3rd Dan BB and all of the gup members.

My Sah Bom Nim is a 4th Dan, 22 years experience in TSD (He is not easily impressed). He was examined and re-certified for his 4th Dan. The test was done in 4 days, very hard.
He says GM Kim is a very different master. He is not interested in money as all of the other we know are. I asked twice about a set of videos and some merchandise from his webpage, got no answer (it was before we affiliated with him). Now I know He does not sell anything to somebody he doesn't know.
He is widely respected, has several magazine covers and is member of the hall of fame of Black Belt Magazine and some others.

I am going to meet Him personally on march, when I will submit my 3rd Dan testing to Him. So, I will have a pretty good idea about Him.

Regards.


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## JT_the_Ninja

@ Montecarlodrag: I'd like to interject that, from what I've seen of ITF, training under Chun Sik Kim and his instructors (well, mostly from one of his instructors) that it is certainly nothing like "flippy dippy jump kicky" TKD. We strive for traditional and practical TSD training.

In fact, as relates to the topic of this thread, the ITF has taken out all the "flippy" moves from the first few bong hyung, leaving only basic blocks/strikes. Whenever I help someone with a bong form, one of my points of emphasis is that the bong is just an extension of your hands - you just have to adapt to how the staff works, making use of its advantages. 

Oh, and Chun Sik Kim has also been featured in several magazines, but I don't like to sound like a P.R. guy repeating all the stuff from the website. 

Interesting that both our organizations have schools down in Mexico, as well.


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## Montecarlodrag

JT_the_Ninja said:


> @ Montecarlodrag: I'd like to interject that, from what I've seen of ITF, training under Chun Sik Kim and his instructors (well, mostly from one of his instructors) that it is certainly nothing like "flippy dippy jump kicky" TKD. We strive for traditional and practical TSD training.
> 
> In fact, as relates to the topic of this thread, the ITF has taken out all the "flippy" moves from the first few bong hyung, leaving only basic blocks/strikes. Whenever I help someone with a bong form, one of my points of emphasis is that the bong is just an extension of your hands - you just have to adapt to how the staff works, making use of its advantages.
> 
> Oh, and Chun Sik Kim has also been featured in several magazines, but I don't like to sound like a P.R. guy repeating all the stuff from the website.
> 
> Interesting that both our organizations have schools down in Mexico, as well.


 
I was not refering to anyone in particular.

What is "flippy" ?

Which Bong Hyungs do you practice?


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## astrobiologist

Montecarlodrag said:


> I think everybody speaks depending of the way things developed for himself. We had a bad experience with WTSDA politics, but I still don't think or say bad things about Jae Chul Shin...
> 
> My school is under Chong Su Kim system. We affiliated with Him a year ago.
> We decided to stay with Him because we saw very different and good things.
> We have been members of ITF, WSTDA, WMDKTSD, and a few other. Most of them are more Tae Kwon Do than TSD, nothing related to true TSD.
> 
> We liked GM Kim because he is the opposite of a Mc Dojang, he does not sell ranks or certificates. I don't quite understand why you say that but I respect you opinion.
> Chong Su Kim is going to come to see us training, to certify our ranks, and more important, to MEET Us. Nobody has done the same for us in the past, only Jae Chul Shin. It seems nobody cares about schools with less than 500 students ($$$), but Kim does care and He is going to travel from PA to Mexico with 7 of His senior members only to meet us, test two 3rd Dan BB and all of the gup members.
> 
> My Sah Bom Nim is a 4th Dan, 22 years experience in TSD (He is not easily impressed). He was examined and re-certified for his 4th Dan. The test was done in 4 days, very hard.
> He says GM Kim is a very different master. He is not interested in money as all of the other we know are. I asked twice about a set of videos and some merchandise from his webpage, got no answer (it was before we affiliated with him). Now I know He does not sell anything to somebody he doesn't know.
> He is widely respected, has several magazine covers and is member of the hall of fame of Black Belt Magazine and some others.
> 
> I am going to meet Him personally on march, when I will submit my 3rd Dan testing to Him. So, I will have a pretty good idea about Him.
> 
> Regards.


 
This thread has gotten a little off topic.  But, to your response, if your school finds a place with Chung Su Kim, so be it.  If you are happy with his instruction, so be it.  I wish you the best in your training and in your life.  My take on Chung Su Kim, having known him for so long, is very different from what he has been showing you.  If he treats your school with respect, than I will be happy for you.  Those of us who know him though know where his intentions lie.  

Ask Kim to show you some applications from Pyung Ahn, Naihanchi, or Kong Sang Koon.  If you know much about applications of TSD hyung, then you will be under-impressed.  I'll leave it at that.

Back to the topic at hand.  Does anyone practice Dan Gum Hyung (a knife form)?  If so, do you teach applications for your knife form?


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## JT_the_Ninja

@Montecarlodrag: 

(1) Flippy = twirling the bong in a showy manner (like you'd see at a demo). Not really much practical application beyond confusing your opponent before you drop your bong. 

(2) I am not certain as to the origin of our bong hyung. I only know the first several (cho dan, e dan, sam dan, sa dan -- the latter I won't need until I'm a sam dan), but I've seen bong hyung o dan, and there may be one or two beyond that...maybe. The first couple are really basic...really basic. Later on there are some more complex movements, and they all have their own (often multiple) applications. We don't spar with bongs, and they are the only weapon for which we practice hyung -- they're just a complement to and extension of empty-hand techniques. If you happen to have a staff-like object nearby in a fight, it's a good idea to have some clue how to use it. As for defending, we have knife and sword defense, both of which are also adaptable (sword could be bat/pipe swinging).


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## astrobiologist

JT_the_Ninja said:


> @Montecarlodrag:
> Flippy = twirling the bong in a showy manner (like you'd see at a demo). Not really much practical application beyond confusing your opponent before you drop your bong.


 
Flippy = the unconscious jerking motion of the body while laying on the ground after getting slapped in the carotid while spinning a toothpick staff over the head and behind the back while in a fight.


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## JT_the_Ninja

@astrobiologist: Hah! That's great. 

Actually, my school uses the solid-width bongs, not those tapered "toothpicks," as you called them. I personally prefer it that way.


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## Montecarlodrag

Oh, I understand, thanks.

We use real weapons, including the knife, katana, nunchaku and bong. (of course we go easy with children and give them foam and fake weapons, we don't want anybody to get hurt)

Our bong is solid, made of strong wood. The heaviest the better, because when you practice with a heavy one, you later use a light one and is very easy (useful in tournaments).
We like to develop callous hands (sometimes is embarrasing, but is useful)
Some of us use a bong made of a wood called "mezquite" in spanish. Don't know of any translation, but is the strongest wood you can get, but it's harder and harder to find.
I personally use a 1 inch, aluminum bong, light and strong (and shiny, I can't deny my engineering background )

The hyungs we know are:

Three Bong hyung
Five kicho Bong

There are more, but i haven't learned them yet.

We practice Dan Gum hyung. The practical applications we teach are:

*Throat cuts
*Pointed attacks to the body
*Body cuts
*double hand cuts to the body
*Vital points very vulnerable to knife attacks (not to teach students how to kill people, but how to defend themselves against this attacks and survive)
*The most important thing, we make it serious and real. We make sure everybody understand our training is not to impress anyone, that bladed weapons are no joke, and the dangers involved.

Its not much, but is enough to cover this hyung, We don't really have a profound weapons background other than TSD.


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## MBuzzy

Montecarlo - what organization are you with?

I'm curious how you handle "katana" or "gum?"  Do you practice with mokgum or kagum?  When do you allow students to handle jingum?

Actually, I'm always VERY surprised when any KMA person refers to a Katana - especially with the Korean cultural aversion to all things Japanese.


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## Montecarlodrag

astrobiologist said:


> This thread has gotten a little off topic. But, to your response, if your school finds a place with Chung Su Kim, so be it. If you are happy with his instruction, so be it. I wish you the best in your training and in your life. My take on Chung Su Kim, having known him for so long, is very different from what he has been showing you. If he treats your school with respect, than I will be happy for you. Those of us who know him though know where his intentions lie.
> 
> Ask Kim to show you some applications from Pyung Ahn, Naihanchi, or Kong Sang Koon. If you know much about applications of TSD hyung, then you will be under-impressed. I'll leave it at that.


 
Sad you had a bad experience. 
We had several bad experiences with masters and federations too. Yet we choose not to tell everybody and burn him over the internet (by name), even if we are right.
There are different kinds of people, and our goals may not be always the same as our teachers. Many things should change, many thing shouldn't exist at all. But if we don't do anything positive to make things change, words are useless.

As someone said. "If you have nothing good to say, it's better not to say anything at all"

Nobody is the owner of the truth, and what is bad for you, may be god for somebody else. The problem may be a personal thing, who knows. But it may be only me, because I was taught to shut up and move on.

I'm not saying you are incorrect, it's even possible you are 100% correct. But who knows? I mean, it is not cool even if you're right.

Regards and back to topic.


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## Montecarlodrag

MBuzzy said:


> Montecarlo - what organization are you with?
> 
> I'm curious how you handle "katana" or "gum?" Do you practice with mokgum or kagum? When do you allow students to handle jingum?
> 
> Actually, I'm always VERY surprised when any KMA person refers to a Katana - especially with the Korean cultural aversion to all things Japanese.


 
I cannot trace our lineage to a single organization.
Currently I'm a member of Pan Am TSD, but we keep the best things we learn from each organization. WTSDA, ITF, MDKSBD, Jin shim Kwan, you name it

The "gum" is practiced with fake knifes by children or youngsters (if they have the rank of course).
All adults practice with real knifes. Nothing fancy, just real kitchen knifes.

The Katana is practiced only by us, the 3 senior dan Holders, so no worry there about fake weapons.
We practice with cheap and light katanas you find in stores.
However, we have real military katanas, 100% steel and very heavy, even a little rust. Of course they are not hand forged Samurai katanas, but they are real.

We don't have any aversion to Japanese MA. 
The Katana is 100% Japanese, is the finest weapon for a Martial Artist in my opinion. You could practice something similar to avoid any japanese conection, but it wouldn't be the same.
There are several 100% korean weapons, but we don't find them interesting.
Every MA has strenghts on something and has weakness on other things. All of them.
Is up to the Martial artist to learn good things here and there to complement his/her trainig, or to close his mind and pretend his MA is the best of the world.

I'm not sure what kagum, jingum or mokgum are. I think I have an idea, but could you please explain for me?

Regards.


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## MBuzzy

Montecarlodrag said:


> I cannot trace our lineage to a single organization.
> Currently I'm a member of Pan Am TSD, but we keep the best things we learn from each organization. WTSDA, ITF, MDKSBD, Jin shim Kwan, you name it
> 
> The "gum" is practiced with fake knifes by children or youngsters (if they have the rank of course).
> All adults practice with real knifes. Nothing fancy, just real kitchen knifes.
> 
> The Katana is practiced only by us, the 3 senior dan Holders, so no worry there about fake weapons.
> We practice with cheap and light katanas you find in stores.
> However, we have real military katanas, 100% steel and very heavy, even a little rust. Of course they are not hand forged Samurai katanas, but they are real.
> 
> We don't have any aversion to Japanese MA.
> The Katana is 100% Japanese, is the finest weapon for a Martial Artist in my opinion. You could practice something similar to avoid any japanese conection, but it wouldn't be the same.
> There are several 100% korean weapons, but we don't find them interesting.
> Every MA has strenghts on something and has weakness on other things. All of them.
> Is up to the Martial artist to learn good things here and there to complement his/her trainig, or to close his mind and pretend his MA is the best of the world.
> 
> I'm not sure what kagum, jingum or mokgum are. I think I have an idea, but could you please explain for me?
> 
> Regards.



Sir, thank you for your answer!  Very interesting!  I hope that my last response didn't come off wrong or disrespectful.  None was meant.  That makes much more sense being that you are from more of a "mixed" dojang.  The comment about Japanese aversion only refers to the Korean culture, not to any of the Martial Artists who practice it.  There are still very hard feelings, especially among the older Koreans about the atrocities done to them and their culture during the Japanese occupation.  I actually find it refreshing that some Japanese is brought in - as long as it is stated as such.  The thing that gives me heartburn is when weapons are imported and _called_ Korean, when they are using Japanese names and techniques.  I am a strong proponent of cross training and if the instructor is straightforward as to the lineage of the teachniques, I think it is great.  Just one of my little things I guess...

Also, I have a bit of a personal interest, since I also train in Haidong Gumdo, traditional Korean sword art.

I do have to argue a bit on the point that the Katana is 100% Japanese and that there are other weapons that are 100% Korean.  The NAME Katana is certainly 100% Japanese and the original forging techniques may very well have been, but Korea has a rich history of sword techniques and weapons.  There are several Korean martial arts built completely around the use of the Korean sword - which incidentally looks identical to a Katana and is forged in basically the same way.  If you look at the other traditional korean weapons, you will find their counterparts in Japanese arts and even in some chinese arts.  There was considerable cross talk between the cultures.  

As for the definition of terms - Mokgum is a wooden sword, aka Bokken; Kagum is an unsharpened practice sword, usually made of aluminum....the unsharpened steel version is called a Saegum; and a Jingum is a live blade, i.e. hardened and sharpened.  Jingum is the blade that cuts through people.  The others are used for practice.

Personally, I've been training in Gumdo (sword way) for about 2 years and the use of live blades is VERY restricted.  Until you reach Dan rank, you aren't allowed to own one and can only use them under supervision.  This is why I am so amazed when so many organizations teach a few sword forms, then give live blades to their students.  Personally, I still feel a bit weird when practicing with a live blade.  I won't roll with it, I won't cartwheel with it, and my spins (spinning sword, not to be "flippy," but to clean the blood off of the blade) are much slower than usual.  I can't imagine learning two forms and start using the a blade.


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## Montecarlodrag

MBuzzy said:


> Sir, thank you for your answer! Very interesting! I hope that my last response didn't come off wrong or disrespectful. *None was meant.*


 
None taken buddy 



> As for the definition of terms - Mokgum is a wooden sword, aka Bokken; Kagum is an unsharpened practice sword, usually made of aluminum....the unsharpened steel version is called a Saegum; and a Jingum is a live blade, i.e. hardened and sharpened. Jingum is the blade that cuts through people. The others are used for practice


Oh, thanks.
We do use some of them, but I didn't know them for their name. We call them in spanish names. I've never seen the aluminum version though
Very nice of you to share that info, thanks.


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## GINGERNINJA

i am a 1st dan BB , and i have always been taught weapons , bo staff , nun-chucks ,  short sword , long sword , knife , throwing knife , chop sticks , pretty much every M.A style weapon 
( I am not to particular about specific names SORRY  if that upsets anyone ) 
and i have never been taught any "kicky flippy jumpy stuff " ( i do like that phrase ! lol ) i have always been taught the full use of the weapon with sparring , weapons forms , i can honestly say that i have never once done a " helicopter spin " above my head or any another MOVIE  style nonsense , My Master has over 50yrs of T.S.D experience  , i came across a subject very similar to this post a few a weeks ago and asked my Master if weapons are / was / is original T.S.D  training and Master answer was  YES   I also asked if weapons training was taught  back in Korea when T.S.D was first starting , again my Master answered  YES   ! 
So to answer the original question I would say  YES  weapons do belong in T.S.D 
And for me a very enjoyable part of the journey of T.S.D we are on !


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## MBuzzy

GINGERNINJA said:


> i am a 1st dan BB , and i have always been taught weapons , bo staff , nun-chucks ,  short sword , long sword , knife , throwing knife , chop sticks , pretty much every M.A style weapon
> ( I am not to particular about specific names SORRY  if that upsets anyone )
> and i have never been taught any "kicky flippy jumpy stuff " ( i do like that phrase ! lol ) i have always been taught the full use of the weapon with sparring , weapons forms , i can honestly say that i have never once done a " helicopter spin " above my head or any another MOVIE  style nonsense , My Master has over 50yrs of T.S.D experience  , i came across a subject very similar to this post a few a weeks ago and asked my Master if weapons are / was / is original T.S.D  training and Master answer was  YES   I also asked if weapons training was taught  back in Korea when T.S.D was first starting , again my Master answered  YES   !
> So to answer the original question I would say  YES  weapons do belong in T.S.D
> And for me a very enjoyable part of the journey of T.S.D we are on !



Please don't take this the wrong way, as I mean no disrespect at all to question your instructor and I believe him/her.  But I am curious as to who he trained with and where the weapons were taught.  Was he under Hwang Kee at the time?  

I have run in to the opposite among many older Koreans in TSD.  My Korean instructor as well as his instructor both told me that Hwang Kee did not teach weapons as a part of TSD.  There were weapons curriculums, but they were always kept separate from TSD.  

Also, in Hwang Kee's work, there is no mention of any weapons being included in the style, including in the original kyobon and daegahm.   In fact, when referring to the Mooyedobo tongji, Hwang Kee specifically refers to his translations and work on the Kwon bup chapters.

Any background or more information would be much appreciated - I am very interested in this topic as someone who studies TSD and a separate Korean weapons style (Haidong Gumdo).


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## GINGERNINJA

Yes no trouble at all Mbuzzy , Ill shall ask my Master this evening, and sorry should of posted a little more info  .  My Masters name is Grand Master Kim Maltae I think he has been studying T.S.D since 1950 or 55 not to sure will confirm later, But if there was weapons curriculums being taught then doesnt that mean that there was a need for them and therefore weapons do belong in T.S.D ? So weapons were being taught in T.S.D from the start we agree on that ? so if weapons curriculums were being taught who structured the curriculums ? and what defines them as not part of TSD  or part of TSD ?


A bit of hot potato this one  !


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## MBuzzy

GINGERNINJA said:


> Yes no trouble at all Mbuzzy , Ill shall ask my Master this evening, and sorry should of posted a little more info  .  My Masters name is Grand Master Kim Maltae I think he has been studying T.S.D since 1950 or 55 not to sure will confirm later, But if there was weapons curriculums being taught then doesnt that mean that there was a need for them and therefore weapons do belong in T.S.D ? So weapons were being taught in T.S.D from the start we agree on that ? so if weapons curriculums were being taught who structured the curriculums ? and what defines them as not part of TSD  or part of TSD ?



No problem, thank you!

That is certainly the question here.  As Hwang Kee originally intended it, there are no weapons in Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do (for these purposes, I use the terms interchangeably).  To this day, the World Moo Duk Kwan does not incorporate any offensive weapons training.  There are bong defense and tanto defense techniques however.  

I can't say that I agree that TSD taught weapons from the beginning.  I also can't agree that they are necessary.  As for whether they are part of the curriculum and who defines that, I suppose it depends on your perspective.

If you are a "purist" or still in the Federation or World MDK, I would say that your opinion is probably that Hwang Kee, and Hwang, HC form the curriculum and dictate what is and isn't part of the style.  The splintered TSD organizations will take direction from their Kwan Jangs - all of whom were originally Hwang Kee's students though.  Some have gone their own way and I know for a fact that many of them do now incorporate weapons.

I would say that your organization makes the call.  As to whether they belong or not...well, it solely depends how much of a purist you are and whether you believe that we should do things how Hwang Kee originally intended them or if you believe that we should evolve and move on.

I would be VERY curious to know why Hwang Kee did not include them originally though.....

Personally, I believe that weapons are an important part of Martial Arts training, but that is why I'm in Haidong Gumdo!


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## Tim37200

Hello,
I'm a 2nd Degree Black Belt in Tang Soo Do.  We use weapons in our Dojang, we use the staff, escrima sticks, and the knife, but weapons training starts with staff techniques and a basic form at 1st Gup Red Belt, and then once you've been a Cho Dan for 6 months you begin learning the Escrimas.  Once you reach Sam Dan you learn a knife form, but I'm not there yet.
As for the way they're taught, we have one whole 45 min. class just for weapons, and we have fighting routines for both the staff and escrima sticks, the basic Bong Hyung forms (I think there are 4? I'm not sure.) as well as the Wang Bo forms which are a little fancier, longer, and more complex.  There are also 3 escrima hyungs and we do self defense against knives, staffs(plural? haha) and swords.  Hai Dong Gum Do is also taught at our school, but I don't train in it.  My instructor is great when it comes to weapon work because he is very open minded about it, I have learned the Nunchakus(Sang Jeol Bong or Ee Chul Bong in Korean) by myself and have competed in tournaments and he has even given me pointers here and there.  Others have learned the Kamas, Broadsword, 3 Sectional, etc. and have brought their previous weapon training into TSD for weapons.
I think weapons are an important part of TSD, plus, it's good to know how to defend against them.

Tang Soo!


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## Jimi

Nunchaku work in TSD I believe was added unless the instructor can trace the KOREAN weapon back to a system truly teaching Sang Jeol Bong or Ee Chul Bong, but it still is not TSD. To call it Nunchaku is using a more common Okinawan term & can be misleading in my opinion. The escrima sticks, (I have trained Inosanto Kali since 1983) are abosolutely not KOREAN or TSD, especially if the insructor teaches it as structured in the FMA's= Escala 9 count striking drill & outside snake disarm (Although if using Korean termonology & training as a Koren stick weapon, then it may be Korean, cause some korean arts do use sticks, just not TSD & they don't call it Escrima) Even if the instructor teaches the Escrima sticks competently, this must have been added. Kama's= Okinawan by Name, I have issue with that. Like the Nunchaku, the Kama's use in TSD was added again unless the instructor can trace it back to a true KOREAN sickle weapon, otherwise it is not TSD or Korean. Now the 3 Sectional Staff, my god that is a chinese weapon. If someone can trace this weapon back to TSD, or even Hwarang Do or something somehow, I would be very interested, Cause DAMN! Many instructors add weapons skills to their curriculum when cross training w/ associates in the M.A. community, but I doubt that TSD had all these Weapons skills when Kwang Kee set his standard. It is so common in the states to find someone training in a Korean system working with weapons like Nunchaku, Kama, Tonfa, Escrima sticks etc...(By another arts termonlogy saying it is TSD or Korean). I personaly would not trust a TSD instructor telling me the 3 sectional staff is TSD. Especialy if the form looks very Kung Fu/Wu Shu like. It was borrowed. I do agree that someone can train in TSD and also train weapons skill from outside the TSD system, but they should not call it TSD weapons skills. Just my opinion. (And yes I have trained in Kobudo Okinwawn Weapons since 1980, so I am sensitive to the whole Korean NUNCHAKU thing.)


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## MBuzzy

Jimi said:


> Nunchaku work in TSD I believe was added unless the instructor can trace the KOREAN weapon back to a system truly teaching Sang Jeol Bong or Ee Chul Bong, but it still is not TSD. To call it Nunchaku is using a more common Okinawan term & can be misleading in my opinion. The escrima sticks, (I have trained Inosanto Kali since 1983) are abosolutely not KOREAN or TSD, especially if the insructor teaches it as structured in the FMA's= Escala 9 count striking drill & outside snake disarm (Although if using Korean termonology & training as a Koren stick weapon, then it may be Korean, cause some korean arts do use sticks, just not TSD & they don't call it Escrima) Even if the instructor teaches the Escrima sticks competently, this must have been added. Kama's= Okinawan by Name, I have issue with that. Like the Nunchaku, the Kama's use in TSD was added again unless the instructor can trace it back to a true KOREAN sickle weapon, otherwise it is not TSD or Korean. Now the 3 Sectional Staff, my god that is a chinese weapon. If someone can trace this weapon back to TSD, or even Hwarang Do or something somehow, I would be very interested, Cause DAMN! Many instructors add weapons skills to their curriculum when cross training w/ associates in the M.A. community, but I doubt that TSD had all these Weapons skills when Kwang Kee set his standard. It is so common in the states to find someone training in a Korean system working with weapons like Nunchaku, Kama, Tonfa, Escrima sticks etc...(By another arts termonlogy saying it is TSD or Korean). I personaly would not trust a TSD instructor telling me the 3 sectional staff is TSD. Especialy if the form looks very Kung Fu/Wu Shu like. It was borrowed. I do agree that someone can train in TSD and also train weapons skill from outside the TSD system, but they should not call it TSD weapons skills. Just my opinion. (And yes I have trained in Kobudo Okinwawn Weapons since 1980, so I am sensitive to the whole Korean NUNCHAKU thing.)



This is my feeling also.  I see nothing wrong with working with weapons at all.  In fact, I do myself (Haidong Gumdo), I just have a problem with working with these weapons and trying to pass them off as historically Korean while still using Japanese names and techniques.  

I say that if you want to use the Japanese names, techniques, anything, that is fine, GREAT even, it enhances training.  But calling it TSD is a misnomer.  It is nomenclature of course, but to met at least, it is a big deal.  What would happen if you walked in to an Isshinryu Dojo and asked to train in the bong or jingum, or ee chul bong?  And yet it is ok to go into a TSD Dojang and ask to train in tonfa, katana, nunchaku, etc?  As long as your students know that what you are teaching is not traditional TSD and it comes from somewhere else - fine by me!

I do realize that a portion of it just has to do with the common names.  I myself call TSD "Karate" to people who don't know any better...and if you put up a sign saying that you teach ee cheol bong, you probably wouldn't get any response.  I just believe in paying homage to the culture through the use of their words or your native language.  (i.e. use either english or korean....but mixing in the Japanese without making it known specifically that you are doing it just doesn't sit right with me).


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## thesandman

This is why it is important to understand the difference between style and system.

For instance, most of my training was TSD, Aikido, Jujitsu and Modern Arnis.  These styles were taught as part of a system developed by my GrandMaster, Soke Michael Kinney.

So to me, weapons have always been a part of my martial arts but because of the Modern Arnis and Aikido, not because of the TSD.  

Most people, whether they know it or not, train in a system not a pure style.  Not that there's anything wrong with that, in fact it's probably better.  Just that pure styles are hard to come by and generally unpleasant to train in. (as most who only teaches the pure style tends to be pretty close minded and self important)

Most of the time you're learning "insert name of instructor here"-do and they call it whatever their instructor called it based on whatever art had the most influence on them.


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## Gi1

MBuzzy said:


> This is my feeling also.  I see nothing wrong with working with weapons at all.  In fact, I do myself (Haidong Gumdo), I just have a problem with working with these weapons and trying to pass them off as historically Korean while still using Japanese names and techniques.
> 
> I say that if you want to use the Japanese names, techniques, anything, that is fine, GREAT even, it enhances training.  But calling it TSD is a misnomer.  It is nomenclature of course, but to met at least, it is a big deal.  What would happen if you walked in to an Isshinryu Dojo and asked to train in the bong or jingum, or ee chul bong?  And yet it is ok to go into a TSD Dojang and ask to train in tonfa, katana, nunchaku, etc?  As long as your students know that what you are teaching is not traditional TSD and it comes from somewhere else - fine by me!
> 
> I do realize that a portion of it just has to do with the common names.  I myself call TSD "Karate" to people who don't know any better...and if you put up a sign saying that you teach ee cheol bong, you probably wouldn't get any response.  I just believe in paying homage to the culture through the use of their words or your native language.  (i.e. use either english or korean....but mixing in the Japanese without making it known specifically that you are doing it just doesn't sit right with me).



Yes I agree. in the original TSD MDK as taught by GM Hwang Kee and GM KU Lee I belive there is only one weapons form it is a knife form.


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## Montecarlodrag

I see some people think that if Hwang Kee didn't do  it, it isn't TSD or it isn't traditional.

Remeber Hwang Kee is not the first nor the only one to practice Tang Soo Do. TSD is a very old system and can't be defined only as the way Kee interpreted and taught it.
That's the reason TSD is different between countries and federations, because it has changed as the years passed.

You can't seriously expect a single person to define a complete and traditional Martial Art. Some things must be taken from here, others from there. Some masters add weapons, others contribute with empty handed techniques, etc.

I have seen TSD Black Belts which I knew they were TSD only because they had a TSD patch on their dobok. If they didn't I'd have tought they were any other MA.

Regards.


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## Jimi

Montecarlodrag, Although I understand your point that Kwang Kee was not all that is Tang Soo Do,  I must assert that Nunchaku, Sai, Kama, and even a 3 Sectional Staff is a mis-representation if calling these weapons Tang Soo Do skills. Most of Tang Soo Do is seen as an Empty Hand Art, (Not saying that TSD practitioners can not train with Weapons from outside their art, just don't call it Tang Soo Do Weapons Skills) so those trainning nowwa days in TSD using Nunchaku, (Insert Okinawan Weapon here) are not practicing the Ancient Art of the Korean *Empty Hand* Weapon. Find for me the Origins of Any TSD group that uses Traditional Korean Weapons Skills (As opposed to masking Okinawan Weapons as Korean) and I will celebrate the long lost TSD weapons skills of Korea. I am not saying that Korean Arts do not have Weapons Skills, although I doubt Nunchaku, Sai, Kama are among them. How far back do you think Tang Soo Do goes? Please don't tell me a thousand years.


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## MBuzzy

Montecarlodrag said:


> I see some people think that if Hwang Kee didn't do  it, it isn't TSD or it isn't traditional.
> 
> Remeber Hwang Kee is not the first nor the only one to practice Tang Soo Do. TSD is a very old system and can't be defined only as the way Kee interpreted and taught it.
> That's the reason TSD is different between countries and federations, because it has changed as the years passed.
> 
> You can't seriously expect a single person to define a complete and traditional Martial Art. Some things must be taken from here, others from there. Some masters add weapons, others contribute with empty handed techniques, etc.
> 
> I have seen TSD Black Belts which I knew they were TSD only because they had a TSD patch on their dobok. If they didn't I'd have tought they were any other MA.
> 
> Regards.



First off, you do have to pay some homage to the man that created the style.  It seems that we are talking about two different Tang Soo Do's.  The first TSD is the one that Hwang Kee CREATED, as an amalgamation of chinese and japanese styles and based very loosely on things that he read in the muyedobotongji.  The second Tang Soo Do is the literaly TSD.  The WORDS Tang Soo Do simply translate to Karate, empty handed style, martial arts.  TSD is a general term that has been used in Korean to represent any martial art - in general.  This is because the translation of the Hanmun characters are the words TSD....i.e. If you write the characters for Karate in Korea, it is pronounced TSD.

If we are talking about the general TERM - the translation of the hanmun characters, then it is perfectly legal to say that TSD is 1000 years old, 2000 years old, whatever...because in THAT case, all you are saying is that Martial Arts are that old.  But to say that TSD....the style that Hwang Kee created in 1945 is that old, is simply a misnomer.  He took some previously know material, re-organized it, re-packaged it, and gave it a new name, which soon changed to Soo Bahk Do, to show that it is not in fact a general term...it is a specific name of the style.

True, TSD has evolved, it has changed and it has grown since 1945, but Hwang Kee laid the foundations.  All martial arts must evolve, but it is simply a misnomer to say that something is "traditional TSD" if it violates the basic principles set forth by Hwang Kee.

I have to agree 100% with Jimi here, as I've said multiple times in the thread.  PRACTICE WEAPONS!  Everyone, please.  I think it is great, and that you should.  Weapons are great....but they just aren't Tang Soo Do _as it was originally intended_.  If they were, they would be at least mentioned in some of Hwang Kee's books.  They have been added, that is fine....but something still just doesn't set right with me when people use the Japanese names, teach the Japanese styles of weapons, and then call it Tang Soo Do.  That is no different than opening a school, calling it a Tang Soo Do Dojang, then teaching Kali.  

TSD schools are all different, some use weapons, some teach different forms, some do things differently, some look different....Things are changing.  I for one am interested to see what happens in the world of TSD in the future.


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## MBuzzy

Now here's the ironic part...with all of that said....I happen to know that the US Soo Bahk Do Federation is beginning to incorporate bong techniques into their curriculum.  Why...I'm not sure.  Hwang Kee passed the style to his son, and if HC Hwang feels that bong techniques belong, that is his right.  TSD will evolve.  But it is still a misnomer to say that weapons were an original part of Tang Soo Do.


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## Montecarlodrag

I agree, weapons used in TSD today are not traditional korean weapons. But most martial arts also use weapons developed or used by pure weapons based styles, like the samurai katana. 
There is nothing wrong with using weapons, many of them have no specific origin and many MA use them.

TSD was organized and structured by Hwang Kee, but the techniques used in it are very old, He didn't invent them. Much of the things we see in TSD are old okinawan or chinese or japanese.
TSD per se is a new style created by H. Kee, but the roots, history, techniques, philosophy and training methods are very old. TSD has modern parts and old parts, as any other MA.
You can't say TSD is a new MA created in 1945 and deny any ancient roots, fighting or training methods, because it isn't true. You can't also say TSD is a pure traditional style created 2000 years ago because that isn't true either. TSD is part modern, part ancient. It has evolved with time, changed names, etc.
You can't say any MA is thousands of years old, because in ancient times they didn't even use a name for a particular fighting system. All traditional MA have evolved over time. Even chinese Kung Fu can't say it's so old as a pure and consolidated system.

I can't talk for all TSD styles or schools, because even in my city they are different.
We train the hard way, old fashioned style of TSD. We do things I haven't seen in any "modern" MA.

Of course We have to give credit to Hwang Kee for his work. But we also have to think he was not the only one nor the first. He learned from others like everyone else. TSD is a legacy, a system made of old and new techniques, all structured and named by G.M. Hwang Kee, not old, not new, a mix of both.

Regards.


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## MBuzzy

As I've said, my biggest beef is people trying to pass this stuff off as TSD.  I personally train in weapons...but I just don't understand why some people try so hard to CALL it TSD or CALL it Korean, when it obviously isn't.  And to me, the #1 indicator that you are trying to pass something off as Korean or TSD that isn't....is when the schools call the weapons by Japanese names.  Then do Japanese forms....What is TSD about that?  What is Korean about that?  

I would rather people just call weapons by their English name than the Japanese name and try to pass it off as Korean.  Staff, Sword, Sickle....ok, nunchaku is kind of universal....I don't even know if there is an English name for that one!  But there is a Korean name!


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## Jimi

The* Nunchacku* = stick flail weapon is also called *Toyok* in the Phillipines. A Rose by any other name, Korean Instructors who truly know call it *Sang Jeol Bong* or *Ee Chul Bong*. I just don't agree that since Kwang Kee pulled from multiple sources (*Chinese, Japanese & Okinawan*) creating an empty hand system that TSD has Ancient roots,(*Not as TANG SOO DO, Those roots are Chinese, Japanese & Okinawan by other names*). That is like saying since kicking skills in many Martial Arts are of ancient origin and that the UFC allows kicks, that makes UFC an Ancient Art cause one of it's components is considered Ancient. I do not agree. I just do not feel that TSD encompasses weapons =IE: Nunchaku, Sai, Kama or even hooked cane. Korean Arts do have Weapons, such as *Gumdo* or even *Hwarang Do* have Korean Weapon Skills by Korean Origin. I fear my opinion is wasted on those who desire to see their art or organization as all emcompassing. *Nunchacku*, oh yeah we have that, *Sai*, oh yeah we have that. *Katana*, oh yeah we have that too, but I don't know the true Korean name for it so I call it by Okinawan terminology. Although my posts sound like TSD hating, I do not hate it. I started in the Okinawa Korea Karate Association & My first Instructor was Sensei Randy Wozin (Find him in an old copy of Who's Who in Karate in the 70's) he was a Black Belt in Okinawan & Korean Arts. He had some association to Kwang Kee through his own experience in TANG SOO DO MOO DUK KWAN and my Instructor never taught us Okinawan Weapons Skills Saying they were Korean or TANG SOO DO MOO DUK KWAN. Tang Soo Do will evolve no doubt, but because the Western Martial Arts Community has had a lot of POPULAR Weapons exchange does not make TANG SOO DO a Weapons Encompassing Art. Again these weapons that are not Korean by name or origin can be added for a more well rounded system, just recognize that these weapon skills come from somewhere other than the Tang Soo Do systems. I want evidence, show me a real 500 year old Korean Bong form and I will absolutely celebrate it. Show me any Sang Jeol Bong form more than 50 years old, I will celebrate it whole heartedly. I have respect for an Okinwawan Oar Eiku or Eku Bo Form that is approx a few hundred years old. It would be similar if someone was to state that since TSD was formed in part by Okinawan systems through Kwang Kee that this Eiku or Eku Bo is a Tang Soo Do weapons skills with Ancient origins. I hope some of you see my point.


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## DMcHenry

MBuzzy said:


> ... nunchaku is kind of universal....I don't even know if there is an English name for that one!


 
Sure, "num-chucks"


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## astrobiologist

DMcHenry said:


> Sure, "num-chucks"


 
Ha ha ha...


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## MBuzzy

Jimi said:


> The* Nunchacku* = stick flail weapon is also called *Toyok* in the Phillipines. A Rose by any other name, Korean Instructors who truly know call it *Sang Jeol Bong* or *Ee Chul Bong*. I just don't agree that since Kwang Kee pulled from multiple sources (*Chinese, Japanese & Okinawan*) creating an empty hand system that TSD has Ancient roots,(*Not as TANG SOO DO, Those roots are Chinese, Japanese & Okinawan by other names*). That is like saying since kicking skills in many Martial Arts are of ancient origin and that the UFC allows kicks, that makes UFC an Ancient Art cause one of it's components is considered Ancient. I do not agree. I just do not feel that TSD encompasses weapons =IE: Nunchaku, Sai, Kama or even hooked cane. Korean Arts do have Weapons, such as *Gumdo* or even *Hwarang Do* have Korean Weapon Skills by Korean Origin. I fear my opinion is wasted on those who desire to see their art or organization as all emcompassing. *Nunchacku*, oh yeah we have that, *Sai*, oh yeah we have that. *Katana*, oh yeah we have that too, but I don't know the true Korean name for it so I call it by Okinawan terminology. Although my posts sound like TSD hating, I do not hate it. I started in the Okinawa Korea Karate Association & My first Instructor was Sensei Randy Wozin (Find him in an old copy of Who's Who in Karate in the 70's) he was a Black Belt in Okinawan & Korean Arts. He had some association to Kwang Kee through his own experience in TANG SOO DO MOO DUK KWAN and my Instructor never taught us Okinawan Weapons Skills Saying they were Korean or TANG SOO DO MOO DUK KWAN. Tang Soo Do will evolve no doubt, but because the Western Martial Arts Community has had a lot of POPULAR Weapons exchange does not make TANG SOO DO a Weapons Encompassing Art. Again these weapons that are not Korean by name or origin can be added for a more well rounded system, just recognize that these weapon skills come from somewhere other than the Tang Soo Do systems. I want evidence, show me a real 500 year old Korean Bong form and I will absolutely celebrate it. Show me any Sang Jeol Bong form more than 50 years old, I will celebrate it whole heartedly. I have respect for an Okinwawan Oar Eiku or Eku Bo Form that is approx a few hundred years old. It would be similar if someone was to state that since TSD was formed in part by Okinawan systems through Kwang Kee that this Eiku or Eku Bo is a Tang Soo Do weapons skills with Ancient origins. I hope some of you see my point.


 
I've seen the exact same thinking in my academic career.  People take credit for things that aren't their....people want to built up their own work or style or whatever to be more than it is.

The thing is, the fact that Tang Soo Do did not originally have weapons is nothing to be embarrassed about and I don't see it as something that needs "fixed."  It seems to me that most TSD orgs incorporate weapons because they are "cool."  (this is personal opinion here, no offense intended to anyone)  You can't teach a few forms and say that you know how to use the weapon...TO ME, if you are only going to learn a few forms - why bother?  I joind Gumdo to learn the sword.  Not to swing it around for a while and not to learn a few forms to look cool.  To TRULY and INTIMATELY learn how to use the sword.  I joing TSD to truly learn an empty handed style.  I don't see why it is considered necessary to somehow improve TSD through the addition of weapons, other than to look cool.  

If you're going to do it, I say do it like Isshinryu does.  Start EARLY with the weapons, teach them in depth, teach applications, make them a true part of the system.  But even they admit that their weapons come directly from Kobudo....and yet in TSD people try to pass them off as organically TSD.  

Again, I can't say this enough, I fully support learning weapons, they are a great thing to learn.  There is nothing wrong with them.  Although there is also nothing wrong with TSD as Hwang Kee originally intended it.  Just tell people "Hey, this is Japanese." or "Hey, we borrowed this from Hapkido."  The names are only an indication.....if a school is calling it a Katana, or a bo, or a sai, or a nunchaku....well, that says it all.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil

This is an old thread by now... 
I will bring it back to life...

This coming weekend Sensei Peter Carbone will have his next 3 Day Weapons Training Camp in Northville, Michigan.

If you are interested in participating contact me at your earliest convenience: 248-444-0343.

Sensei Carbone is the senior most Kobujutsu instructor in the USA directly under Soke Nakamoto, Kiichi of Okinawa.

I will be going to Okinawa with Sensei Carbone, Gene and Amy Lau and a couple of other members of our association on April 23rd for 15 days of training with Soke Nakamoto and seeing Okinawa. When we return on May 5th we will begin training at the US Honbu in Northville for 3 weeks.

We will host one 3 Day Training Camp here in Northville, and another at Red Lion Karate in Red Lion, PA during the month of April.

*Everyone will be welcome to participate!!!*​ 
Soke Namakoto, Kiichi is now 83 years old. We had him here last year for the entire month of April. It was the best training that I have ever experienced in 37+ years of training. 

If you are able to participate in any of these sessions you will gain great benefit from it. I hope to see all of you come together with us for these sessions.

All the best,


Sensei Jay S.Penfil

*Master Penfil's Martial Artsd Academy*
28221 Beck Rd., Building A-8
Wixom, MI 48393

*masterpenfil@yahoo.com*
*248-444-0343*​


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## Jimi

That is great! I can not afford the money or time for this, but I am jealous Train well, my respects to your Soke.


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## Gi1

Yes a bit far for me I'm affraid, I'm in the UK


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## Master Jay S. Penfil

Jimi said:


> That is great! I can not afford the money or time for this, but I am jealous Train well, my respects to your Soke.


 
Jimi,
Where are you located?

I read your posting a couple of spots before this one. In response (we are on the same page);
In my school I teach sevseral systems:
Tang Soo Jutsu (My way of teaching Tang Soo Do)
Isshinryu Karate (Okinawan system)
Hakko-Ryu Ju Jutsu (Japanese Aiki Ju Jutsu system)
Kobujutsu (Okinawan Weaponry-Bo, Sai, Nunchaku, Tonfa, Gusan, etc.)

I don't call anything by any other name then what is is. When I teach what ever I am teaching I make sure that my students know what system it came from and who the instructor is that taught it to me.

I hate revisionist teaching. Those who choose to take what ever they see and claim it as a part of their traditional system's curriculum is nothing more then a lie... The worst part about those who do that is that they usually have a superficial understanding at best about what they are teaching. I have seen some of these guys that will attend one seminar or pick up a video/DVD and then claim to be a *"MASTER"* of the given material.

I have been training in Isshinryu Karate since 1972. I have learned one Bo Kata, Tokomini No Kun. I know it well (based on how it was taught to me back in 1977), but when I started training in Kobujutsu with my stud ent and we all went to my sensei's dojo to take our first testing on Bo Basics I came out on the training floor wearing a white best, just like my students. They asked me; Sir, why are you wearing a white belt (being that I am a 7th dan). I explained that I may have a 7th dan in Tang Soo Do, but in Kobujutsu I am still a white belt, just like all of you...

When ego is removed and practitioners are ready to just train and learn, things get better for everyone involved.

Call me when you have a chance... I will look forward to the conversation.

248-444-0343


All the best,


Sensei Jay S. Penfil


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## Jimi

Thank you Sir, When time allows I may call or send you a PM so we can carry on a conversation. I originally trained with Sensei Randy Wozin in the early 80's, And I also trained a great deal with some of his associates in the East Coast Martial Arts Demo Team, including Sensei Clarance Murry who is an excellent Sai pratitioner. This man made me understand the function of the weapon rather than how flashy it can look. Like I have mentioned before, I trained many Kobudo weapons against a Shinai and got knuckled a great deal to understand how they function, not Ninja Turtle Movie Moves. Weapons skills can complement many emtyhand styles, just respect where they came from. I meet an Instructor of the Vietnamese Martial Arts in College Park, MD, and I interviewed with him for part time work instructing. After he saw my FMA's skills, he said "I will hire you to teach stick weapons for me, but do not cal it fillipino stick, call it Vietnam stick and say that I taught it to you." I just walked out. Did not waste my time with him after that. Just an example.


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## Errant108

MBuzzy said:


> As I've said, my biggest beef is people trying to pass this stuff off as TSD.



Dangsudo is just the Korean pronounciation of a set of Chinese characters indicating a martial art derived from Chinese practices.

Think about that.


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## Makalakumu

Errant108 said:


> Dangsudo is just the Korean pronounciation of a set of Chinese characters indicating a martial art derived from Chinese practices.
> 
> Think about that.



Don't you think that's a little cheap?  We both know where TSD comes from.  I suppose if you want to throw some weapons in and call it Chinese, you could probably justify it, but that seems pretty flimsy to me.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil

Jimi said:


> Thank you Sir, When time allows I may call or send you a PM so we can carry on a conversation. I originally trained with Sensei Randy Wozin in the early 80's, And I also trained a great deal with some of his associates in the East Coast Martial Arts Demo Team, including *Sensei Clarance Murry* who is an excellent Sai pratitioner. This man made me understand the function of the weapon rather than how flashy it can look.


 
Among the dojo's that I train in here in Michiagn is thr dojo of GM Willie Adams. GM Adams is Sensei Murry's Isshinryu instructor. I think that Sensei Murry has 40+ years of training under GM Adams. I met him when he was in town this past year. We had a chance to discuss Bunkai, and I got to watch him train. It is easy to see when someone knows their stuff. Sensei Murrey is someone that knows his stuff. Please give him my regards when you see him again.

I will look forward to your call...


All the best,

Sensei Jay S. Penfil


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## Errant108

maunakumu said:


> Don't you think that's a little cheap?  We both know where TSD comes from.  I suppose if you want to throw some weapons in and call it Chinese, you could probably justify it, but that seems pretty flimsy to me.



Nope, I don't think that's a little cheap.  I think it's extremely costly.

What it tells me is that given that all of these things are inter-related & derived from each other, through training and research, it really doesn't matter what the hell I call it or what culture it comes from.

You have to put in the time & put in the effort, the kung fu.  You do not ad hoc a bunch of BS together like some kata kollector.  You simplify, you pare down.  You find the connections & you make the connections.  You become responsible for your training rather than being beholden to some long dead culture that you may not even ethnically be a part of.

The Chinese did it.

The Okinawans did it.

The Japanese did it.

The Koreans did it.

Westerners getting hung up on ethnic identity is disingenious.


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## Makalakumu

Errant108 said:


> Nope, I don't think that's a little cheap.  I think it's extremely costly.
> 
> What it tells me is that given that all of these things are inter-related & derived from each other, through training and research, it really doesn't matter what the hell I call it or what culture it comes from.
> 
> You have to put in the time & put in the effort, the kung fu.  You do not ad hoc a bunch of BS together like some kata kollector.  You simplify, you pare down.  You find the connections & you make the connections.  You become responsible for your training rather than being beholden to some long dead culture that you may not even ethnically be a part of.
> 
> The Chinese did it.
> 
> The Okinawans did it.
> 
> The Japanese did it.
> 
> The Koreans did it.
> 
> Westerners getting hung up on ethnic identity is disingenious.



Please correct me if I incorrectly isolate your thesis.  What you are basically saying is that adding elements to your training is fine because that's what all cultures do.


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## Errant108

I'm saying you own your martial art.  No one else does.


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## Makalakumu

Errant108 said:


> I'm saying you own your martial art.  No one else does.



Right.  I'm all for letting everyone have their own.  That's what people do regardless of teacher.  Things change, when you begin to teach, however.

For me, personally, I like it when things fit together and make sense, so when I add things to my practice, I try and find the best way to include it so that it bolsters everything else that I do.  I've experienced the approach where seemingly random things are thrown in and taught and you just need to memorize everything that comes your way because you know you'll be held accountable for it.  While one learns a lot that way, I wouldn't say its the most effective.  

Chunking weapon kata into a system without understanding the connection between the weapon basics and the rest of your practice is not the most effective way to train or to teach.


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## clfsean

maunakumu said:


> Chunking weapon kata into a system *without* *understanding the connection between the weapon basics and the rest of your practice is not the most effective way to train or to teach.*



*bolding mine*

....

or to learn....


Props.....


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## Errant108

You missed the part of my post where I said you have to put in the time & effort & make the connections.


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## Makalakumu

Errant108 said:


> You missed the part of my post where I said you have to put in the time & effort & make the connections.



No, I got it.  We are in agreement!


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## Master Jay S. Penfil

Jimi said:


> including Sensei Clarance Murry who is an excellent Sai pratitioner. This man made me understand the function of the weapon rather than how flashy it can look.



JIMI,
Sensei Murry is here in Detroit right now. We spent some time training a couple of days ago and just had lunch an hour ago. I mentioned this posting to him and he was happy to hear that you remembered him and spoke kindly of your experience with him. He would like to reconnect with you. Please contact me privately with your name, email address, phone number, etc. so that I can pass it on to him.

I will also look forward to getting to know you as well.

All the best,

Sensei Jay S. Penfil
masterpenfil@yahoo.com
248-444-0343*
Master Penfil's Martial Arts Academy*
28221 Beck Rd., Building A-8
Wixom, MI 48393


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## Master Jay S. Penfil

It's time again!!!

Those of you who are interested in Okinawan Weaponry can come and join us for our next 3 day training camp, the last weekend in August at Sensei Carbone's dojo in Northville, Michigan.

We have martial practitioners from several systems already registered from 9 different states. This will be the most diverse training camp that we have had yet.

If you are interested in participating, contact me directly to make arrangements.

All the best,

Sensei Jay S. Penfil

Master Penfil's Martial Arts Academy
28221 beck Rd., Bldg A-8
Wixom, MI 48393
masterpenfil@yahoo.com
248-444-0343


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## SahBumNimRush

JT_the_Ninja said:


> @astrobiologist: Ah; I'd never heard of Chung Su Kim...I can see why that would cause confusion. I train at a Chun Sik Kim dojang...so that relieves me a bit. I've been training there for going on 10 years now, and never encountered anything to label it McDojang (from the teaching perspective...business models/practices are another thing). My sa bom nim in particular spends a good deal of time teaching application, once a student has mastered the basics of moving (have to try walking before you can learn what you can do with it). So I guess we don't have any issue.


 

I know this is a bit off topic here, but JT, who is your sah bum nim?  I train under Grandmaster Sok Ho Kang (Charleston, WV).  Our two schools have a long history together.. . I've competed at you alls tourney and vica versa.  I haven't seen Master Bruno in a while, is he still teaching for Granmaster Chun Sik Kim?

Good to see some "locals" on here.


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## kbarrett

(I know this post any many other i've responded to are older posts, But I just joined and have started reading though them and replying)

I think weapons training is very important for over all martial arts training and TSD is no excerption to this rule, I do believe however that any weapon to train with you must also spar with, going though prearranged motions is not enough and it's not the same as sparring where somebody thinks and reacts to your movements, like with empty hand skills you must spar.

Ken


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## dancingalone

kbarrett said:


> I think weapons training is very important for over all martial arts training and TSD is no excerption to this rule, I do believe however that any weapon to train with you must also spar with, going though prearranged motions is not enough and it's not the same as sparring where somebody thinks and reacts to your movements, like with empty hand skills you must spar.



I agree with this alot.  Unfortunately, in my experience most students will not reach the level of skill where live sparring would be meaningful.  There are all sorts of subtle 'tricks' that are applicable only when working with weapon on weapon, sometimes specific ones like bo vs. bo or sai vs. long knife - I've had only one student thus far in years of teaching where he could benefit from practicing some of those techniques.


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## SahBumNimRush

dancingalone said:


> I agree with this alot.  Unfortunately, in my experience most students will not reach the level of skill where live sparring would be meaningful.  There are all sorts of subtle 'tricks' that are applicable only when working with weapon on weapon, sometimes specific ones like bo vs. bo or sai vs. long knife - I've had only one student thus far in years of teaching where he could benefit from practicing some of those techniques.



I would also agree with this, however, I haven't had any of my students reach this point.  I have one that is getting close though, if he doesn't leave for college before then.. .


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## dancingalone

SahBumNimRush said:


> I would also agree with this, however, I haven't had any of my students reach this point.  I have one that is getting close though, if he doesn't leave for college before then.. .



Take care of your prodigy.  It'll be a shame if students that come after him never learn any of the practical usages of kobudo for lack of teachers.  Doing a few solo forms does not = practicing kobudo.


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## Blindside

Can I ask how often these students are practicing their weapon material?  And what the training progression is?  Having two experienced instructors who have never taken a student to the point of free sparring seems odd to me.  I teach Kali as a primary art, and I usually have students freesparring by 6 months (padded weapons).  Yes there is a training regimen to build the students so that they aren't just flailing around out there, but if they aren't practicing landing their primary attacks and defenses (you know the gross motor basic stuff) they won't ever learn to apply the more subtle stuff.  The practitioner has to be able to instictively recognize posture and position of the opponent and understand what is available because of timing to ever be able to pull the more tricky material.  We use a training curriculum to go from basic technique practice to randomized attacks and application, to technical sparring, to full sparring.  By about one year the issues of unmatched weapons is brought into the application with the same builds, by two years they should be able to do it with non-padded training weapons. 

I realize that the Kali training method is different, but I guess I am curious why there seems to be such a large disparity.  

Thanks,


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## dancingalone

Lamont,

Kobudo simply isn't a vibrant art, as generally taught here in the US.  First, it's somewhat uncommon anyway, outside of Okinawan karate circles, which itself is somewhat dwindling as a training option here.  While there are a few Korean karate and taekwondo dojang that have also picked up some Okinawan weapons here and there, but it is not an organized, comprehensive effort.  The bulk of weapons work these days in sport competition seem to be of the modern variety with more flash than combative meaning.

Most people who learn kobudo usually are stuck at the solo form stage.  A few do manage to learn paired partner kata, but they don't deviate from the pattern.  Still fewer ever really practice striking a target like a wooden post or a tree, and even fewer progress onto semi-free sparring.  The learning progression is what you would expect:  fundamentals & solo work in the air -> solo kata -> striking with a wooden post/other target -> paired exercises -> paired kata -> semi-free sparring  -> free sparring (although I've only have run into 2 other dojo in my life that do that).

I really couldn't tell you for sure why this is.  I can tell you most of my karate students have little enduring interest in kobudo (so maybe it is my teaching method).  They do just the bare minimum to get by, but I can tell they'd rather be practicing something else.  Perhaps they don't see learning to fight with Asian farming tools as relevant to their martial practice, despite my attempts to explain otherwise.  Perhaps time comes in the picture.  I only see most of my students for 3-5 hours a week at most - it would be tough to get them up to speed with weapons unless I taught it exclusively and if I did that, I would wager that I would have no students in short fashion.  It's a fact that the classes and seminars I hold on kobudo are less attended than the ones I have on sparring or kata bunkai or even joint locking.


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## kbarrett

My students train with weapons every class, and don't start sparring with that weapon until Orange Belt Level, I feel there's no time to wait,  they must start learning how spar with weapons now not later, what good dose it do for student to train with these weapons to only wait for some day to spar with them, what happen when said student runs into somebody who has a weapon and they've never experience, sparing with weapon in a safe place like the dojang, and it can't well wait to your a Black Belt again what happen between the time their a white belt and black belt, that's a long time for most styles, a student may find themselves involved with an attacker long before that time comes. (my feelings on this subject)

Ken


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## Master Jay S. Penfil

If any of you are interested in learning and training in Okinawan Kobujutsu, my Sensei, Peter Carbone is a 9th dan directly under Sensei Nakamoto, Kiichi of Okinawa.
Sensei Carbone was charged with the responsibility of spreading this system all over the USA. He is the President and Chief Instructor for "Thee Weapons Connection Society".
We now have member schools in Michigan, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Florida and Colorado. 
All schools are welcome to join us.
In my 40 years of martial arts training I have found Sensei Carbone to be the finest instructor that I have ever trained under. We have seminars in all of the states that we have member schools in. If you are interested in participating, contact me at your convenience...

All the best to everyone for a safe, happy and healthy Holiday Season,

Sensei Jay S. Penfil


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