# Kenpo technique video clips. Any comments?



## howardr (Apr 8, 2005)

http://www.reddragonmaa.com/Kenpo Training Videos.htm


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## kenpo3631 (Apr 8, 2005)

Back Breaker looks somewhat familiar. I had a hard time telling what it was due to the poor body mechanics

The others...well...are they Tracy Kenpo Techniques? They *somewhat  * resemble Parker Kenpo. Five Swords was horrible, if you performed that on someone in the manner it is done in the clip you'd be laughed at (before or after your beating is optional).


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## Sam (Apr 8, 2005)

if they are tracy, they are not on the modified list we learn (there are 40 techniques per belt, we learn 20 per belt, and another 10 per belt at shodan. afaik we dont learn the other 10)


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## dubljay (Apr 8, 2005)

That has to be the worst display of body mechanics I have ever seen.


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## masherdong (Apr 8, 2005)

Hmm, E for effort.  More practice and they should be fine.


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## Bode (Apr 8, 2005)

What irritates me is not the lack of body mechanics (though that warrants enormous corrrection), but the head instructors lack of responsibility to his students. I'm sure he believes he is teaching somethig that works, but it appallingly clear that his students are being taught something that will only get them killed. He is instilling false physical confidence (which translates to mental confidence) in people who probably came to him looking for confidence. If I was responsible for teaching someone to use a gun and taught them to aim the barrel AT themselves then I shouldn't teach! 
  Five swords WILL NOT work the way he teaches it! 
  Notice his credentials and take note. All the certificates and titles in the world does not a good person/instructor make. 

 Does anyone agree that we should have some governing body determine if someone is allowed to teach martial arts? I am not an advocate of big government at all, but certain things should be controlled. Doctors are required to pass exams by a larger governing body in order to practice. Same with psychologists. 
 Shouldn't someone who is responsible for teaching someone how to defend themselves in possible life or death situations require the same? 
 Or perhaps the problem is that we call it an "Art", which means it is interpretational. Oh, to each his own, I'll just put flowers in my hands when attacked and have the attacker be overwhelmed with my kindness. People will flock to me and I will make money. Life will be great... for me. 

 This man should not teach. And if he does, he should tell his students that his teaching should not be relied upon. (I'd be ok with that)


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## Bode (Apr 8, 2005)

oh, one more thing. Before everyone comes down on me for being to harsh and critical regarding anothers art...
 I have seen many videos on the web, but none quite like this. Other videos at least demonstrates decent basics and lay a foundation for improvement. 
 The instructor himself moves exactly like his students in this video. He is a black belt, he should not move as sloppily as he does, thus the students will immitate and end up moving as bad or worse than their instructor.


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## Sapper6 (Apr 8, 2005)

that was entertaining.  the most i've laughed all week.  i'm usually more reverent than that, but geez, he calls that American Kenpo, and it's obviously not.

i really enjoyed the instructors page.  how many arts was this guy certified in?  a bunch.  trained with Seal team 6 members...?  ok.

it's one thing to post videos of something you made up.  it's quite another to call it something it clearly is not.


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## MJS (Apr 8, 2005)

I've seen clips online before with people doing techs., but I have to say that this is certainly one that can use a ton of improvement.  Now, anytime someone puts videos online, you can bet that they will take some bashing.  People have said, "Well, if you think you can do better, why don't you put your own techs. online?"  I have no interest in putting a clip online, but I give credit to those that do.  However, IMHO, if I did put a clip online, I would certainly want it to look better than the ones we just viewed.  

Mike


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## Doc (Apr 8, 2005)

howardr said:
			
		

> http://www.reddragonmaa.com/Kenpo Training Videos.htm


The real entertainment begins when a student finds out what they were taught doesn't work outside the school. 

You know, now I remember why it is so hard for non students to get their hands on the SL-4 Kenpo Uniform Crest. It scares me to death someone might show up in a video looking like crap. - or worse like the example shown here.

Teachers have a duty and a resposibility to students if the claim to teach students to defend themselves. Although I don't feel government intervension is the answer, I also admit I don't know what is beyond - caveat emptor.*


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## Rick Wade (Apr 8, 2005)

I am not one to bash videos because for the most part I think we can learn something from most videos even if it is  Hey I wouldnt do it that way. HOWEVER, HOLY SHIZNIT Batman 

Bravo to the students for doing the best that they have been taught.  If they are reading this please do some research and visit other Parker schools or a Seminar.

To the Instructor what the heck are you thinking man! You should also visit a seminar close shop and take some lessons I am sure Doc would be happy to give you one or two for free but please quit passing this crap off as American Kenpo.  It is the equivalent of a chocolate cake make of mud instead of chocolate.  It looks bad taste bad and doesn't really deserve to be called American Kenpo.


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## howardr (Apr 8, 2005)

I'm sorry to say that when I watched those clips, I was reminded of Kip from Napoleon Dynamite.

Now, I'm sure I'd look like somewhat of a goof ball on video, so posting this link wasn't meant to say that "I'm all that" in comparison. But, I figure if you are going to post video of your martial art on the Internet for all to see, you should make sure it is damn good and representative (like don't predominantly demonstrate with beginners unless they are damn good). So, that leaves me to conclude that they were either (a) foolish for not heeding that advice, or (b) actually demonstrating a representative sample of their skills and quality. Unfortunately, it appears that (b) is the answer since "back breaker" displays the prowess of the head instructor (I'm pretty sure it's him). Apple does not fall far from tree. Wow!

On the one hand, I feel kind of bad for posting the link knowing the likely response (after all at least it looks like they're smiling and having fun; that's gotta count for something...  ), but on the other hand this instructor is claiming this is Kenpo and is presumably teaching this to unwitting students as viable self-defense. Can this be anything other than irresponsible?

ps, I have to say of all the hundreds of clips that I've seen over the years from dozens of schools in dozens of Kenpo flavors, I think this is the worst by far. It's almost like they are intentionally trying to look goofy and be utterly ineffective. I know that's harsh, but this is truly bad. There I said it.


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## dubljay (Apr 8, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> The real entertainment begins when a student finds out what they were taught doesn't work outside the school.


 I wouldn't call it entertainment though.  I truly feel sorry for the students being scammed by this instructor.



 The way "5 Swords" is done looks more like something that would be taught to someone learning to be a masseuse.


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## Doc (Apr 8, 2005)

Bode said:
			
		

> What irritates me is not the lack of body mechanics (though that warrants enormous corrrection), but the head instructors lack of responsibility to his students. I'm sure he believes he is teaching somethig that works, but it appallingly clear that his students are being taught something that will only get them killed. He is instilling false physical confidence (which translates to mental confidence) in people who probably came to him looking for confidence. If I was responsible for teaching someone to use a gun and taught them to aim the barrel AT themselves then I shouldn't teach!
> Five swords WILL NOT work the way he teaches it!
> Notice his credentials and take note. All the certificates and titles in the world does not a good person/instructor make.
> 
> ...


Dam that was close. I thought my name was among the list of people that taught him. He listed everybody.


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## howardr (Apr 8, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Dam that was close. I thought my name was among the list of people that taught him. He listed everybody.


While he lists that he's trained/trains under Larry Tatum, at least he also says the same for Royce Gracie...   :ultracool


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## KenpoDave (Apr 8, 2005)

kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> Back Breaker looks somewhat familiar. I had a hard time telling what it was due to the poor body mechanics
> 
> The others...well...are they Tracy Kenpo Techniques?



"Sifu Robert Teodorczy is also a Full Instructor in Kali, Apprentice Instructor in Silat and Nidan in *American Kenpo * under Bruce Corrigan"


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## TaiChiTJ (Apr 8, 2005)

i went out to the home page, where you can look at some jkd focus mitt training and some kali knifework. 

it would be interesting to hear jkd and kali people comment on what he shows.


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## TChase (Apr 8, 2005)

Ummmmm....no comment.  But I will say the majority of Kenpo schools in my area are exactly like that. :idunno:


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## Sam (Apr 8, 2005)

TChase said:
			
		

> Ummmmm....no comment. But I will say the majority of Kenpo schools in my area are exactly like that. :idunno:


where do you live?


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## howardr (Apr 8, 2005)

TChase said:
			
		

> Ummmmm....no comment.  But I will say the majority of Kenpo schools in my area are exactly like that. :idunno:


That's really sad.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 9, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Damn... that was close.
> I thought *my name* was among the list of people that taught him.
> He listed everybody.


  No, he didn't list everybody ........ I was absent from the list also.......LOL:supcool: (thank goodness)!!!!!!!


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## Bill Lear (Apr 9, 2005)

Someone from that studio is either going to get seriously hurt or killed. My heart literally sank while I watched those videos. That was sad. Really, really sad.

:shrug:


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## Dr. Kenpo (Apr 9, 2005)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> No, he didn't list everybody ........ I was absent from the list also.......LOL:supcool: (thank goodness)!!!!!!!


Not true, I heard you had it removed!:whip:


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## Rick Wade (Apr 9, 2005)

is this more tails of the goldendragon tha twe haven't heard.

Have you been moonlighting on the east coast?

V/R


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## Dr. Kenpo (Apr 9, 2005)

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> is this more tails of the goldendragon tha twe haven't heard.
> 
> Have you been moonlighting on the east coast?
> 
> V/R


Yes, I've been absent as of late, but more controversy stirs from the nest of the Goldendragon. 

No, I don't hang on the East Coast. That's where all the Mafioso types hang out, like Kaith, Seig, and a few others.


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## howardr (Apr 9, 2005)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Someone from that studio is either going to get seriously hurt or killed. My heart literally sank while I watched those videos. That was sad. Really, really sad.
> 
> :shrug:


Yup, me too (heart sinking). That's why I said that while I don't enjoy poking fun at the instructor and students (who are certainly the least culpable in this case), I'm bothered that the students may think they are capable of defending themselves. Yup, hurt or killed.


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## Ceicei (Apr 9, 2005)

Well, some thoughts...  it is easy to criticize while being armchair quarterbacks.

 Remember they are still students with varying degrees of skill. Some of the videos shown were of yellow belts and they are hardly "very good" at that level. They are still working on timing, control, power, etc., and that hopefully will come along better the more they learn. Some principles aren't very easy to pick up. I would give more slack with the beginners and give suggestions how they can improve.

 I do agree the brown belts should have been much better. Which level brown does make a difference though in their abilities and skill.

 It can be challenge sometimes to be very smooth and execute the techniques properly with correct body mechanics while on camera. People sometimes try too hard when they know they are under "the eye". At least, they appear to enjoy what they are doing. I do hope that as they progress through the ranks, they become more realistic with what they do and focus on making things actually work, not just simply going through the motions.  They should be made *very aware* that even the best martial artist will not always come out unscathed in a conflict.

  - Ceicei


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 9, 2005)

TChase said:
			
		

> Ummmmm....no comment. But  I will say the majority of Kenpo schools in my area are exactly like that. :idunno:


I'm not really clear here..... are you saying that "the majority of Kenpo schools in my area " are similar to the quality of skills demonstrated in the videos we are discussing?

 If so.....  then,

 I would have to say this is not a *NEW* issue or problem.  The  internet has been a wonderful tool for communication _but_ at the same time it is a double edged sword. While information can be found on any subject that one can imagine, it also has made available a "billboard of opportunity" for anyone to display what they do or offer. (actually a good thing if you think about it, it allows the viewers further insight as to what is being offered)

 An old saying in business has been for eons..... {as *Doc*  pointed out in a prior post} ...  _*Caveat Emptor*_ which is Latin for "Let the buyer beware."    The idea that buyers take responsibility for the condition of the items they purchase and should examine them before purchase. This is especially true for items that are not covered under a strict warranty. While this may work ok for 'tangible" goods..... how does one check the "intangible" such as instruction where there is no warranty at all......:idunno: there in lies the problem. Anyone is free to do or offer anything for any amount regardless of the quality or in this case, what appears to be *the serious lack of.*

 What hurts us is..... when we  find something like this that has the same name of the "so called" Art or  product that *WE* also use!   We poke fun at "the other" style, art, guy etc. all the time, but when it is one of our own.... OMG! No one wants to be "associated" with a bad or poor product, especially in the martial arts [specifically Kenpo in this case] where we are deeply emotionally, psychologically, intellectually, and physically involved to the degree that most of us fanatics are!  

 Many have expressed concerns and feelings for the *Students* that are being possibly mislead or taught poorly, this shows concern and compassion on our part and that is admirable.  I don't believe anyone "blames" the students but rather the instructors which are in the responsible position of  leading or teaching of material that could very well effect the life of an individual.  

 Yes, it is sad, but what is more upsetting to me is the helplessness of what I can personally do to help them.    The best answer I can come up with,  is to use these _examples_ as motivation to teach to the best of MY  abilities to MY students so I can sleep comfortably at night knowing that I have  done my best to inform, guide, teach, share, and train truthfully and  responsibly.

This issue is universal, and it is not going to go away anytime soon. Quality is something we will address over and over again with virtually every type of product and business out there. The best we can do is to keep each other informed {word of mouth}, expose the frauds and recommend or indorse the good. I guess that is what we are doing with this forum and others..... LOL

  :asian:


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## parkerkarate (Apr 9, 2005)

I do not mean to be roude but that must have been the ugliest display of Kenpo Karate I have ever seen. I do not mean to talk bad about people but those high ranking belts need to get their yellow belts back. I am sorry if I have offended anybody, but to be a black belt or anything around there you need to be alot better than what I saw. To me a black belt needs to be a master, that is probably a wrong word to use, but they need to be very fluent and very powerful. They should not still move like a yellow belt lets put it that way.
Again I am sorry if I have offended anybody


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## Bill Lear (Apr 9, 2005)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Well, some thoughts... it is easy to criticize while being armchair quarterbacks.
> 
> Remember they are still students with varying degrees of skill. Some of the videos shown were of yellow belts and they are hardly "very good" at that level. They are still working on timing, control, power, etc., and that hopefully will come along better the more they learn. Some principles aren't very easy to pick up. I would give more slack with the beginners and give suggestions how they can improve.
> 
> ...


Ceicei,


What is your definition of an armchair quarterback? Around here that term identifies someone as a mere spectator that comments on a professionals performance without ever being in the profession himself. If that's the case I think you're looking at this from a narrow prespective. There are years of experience on this board. Most of the people commenting are people that have experience and are themselves practitioners in the art presented.


:idunno: 

While the people in the video are probably nice people (I don't know them) that doesn't change the fact that the demonstrated material on the videos is bad (and I mean really bad). 

Joe Montana is arguably one of the best quarterbacks of all time. If he were watching a game and commented on how bad it was being played, would he be considered an armchair quarterback? I mean, sheesh, if the players were running down the feild with their helmets on backwards I think it would be his obligation to say something before someone got hurt.

Just my opinion.


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## Mark Weiser (Apr 9, 2005)

Sorry Guys I had to put in my two sense worth here. As a beginning student in EPAK. What I saw how should I say had a lot to be desired. In the Five Swords there was no Stepping up the circle to gain torque. There was no power at all in the Technique. 


In the Grip of Death again no power in Stance changes oh there was no stance changes that is why lol lol. 

The only explanation is that these were new students maybe a few days into Kenpo? But what does that say about the Instructor and why would he put such low quality video on his Website?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 9, 2005)

Schools like this are where people get the "Yeah, I saw a Kenpo black belt once, and gave him a whoopin" from.

Some people miss the intent presented in the name of technique, and how that should drive focus. Consider the name "5 swords". Swinging a sword to bury in an opponent, or dismember him, how much "oomph" should be present?  "Thundering Hammers"...not "Tinkling Drumsticks".  Get it? Should hear the impact from accross a field, as thunder, breaking things wherever they land, as hammers.

This video of flashing mace might be better named "flashing old women in Central Park"?

D.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 9, 2005)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Well, some thoughts... it is easy to criticize while being  armchair quarterbacks.
> - Ceicei


 Very True! We can only see what is there to see. We are not able to have seen what the "starting skills" were of these students, as well as personal mental and physical abilities. However, as "*Billy Lear*" stated, many of the viewers that have commented,  do have reasonable skills and experience (refer to Billy's Joe Montana analogy) and are more than capable of reasonable observations and comments due to their level of expertise.



			
				Ceicei said:
			
		

> Some of the videos shown  were of yellow belts and they are hardly "very good" at that level.
> -  Ceicei


 Well, even though the "yellow belt" is a beginning belt to most of us, I know of many students that are well on their way to a wonderful journey in Kenpo and other martial arts as well, that demonstrate a much higher level of understanding and skill development than what was captured on these particular videos.



			
				Ceicei said:
			
		

> They (the students recorded) are still working on timing, control, power, etc., and that hopefully will come along better the more they learn. Some principles aren't very easy to pick up. I would give more slack with the beginners and give suggestions how they can improve.
> - Ceicei


  Ceicei, I don't find anywhere :idunno: in this thread where anyone was criticizing any of the particular students but rather the quality of the material and training (or lack there of)  that they have been given.



			
				Ceicei said:
			
		

> I do agree the brown belts should have been much better. Which level brown does make a difference though in their abilities and skill.
> - Ceicei


 Once again, we don't know what the progression level of each of these individuals are either. They may be demonstrating a great deal of skill for themselves compared to where they started or they may be grossly deficient (in the developmental department) of skills that are necessary. This could either be due to poor instruction and training or lack of sufficient personal practice.



			
				Ceicei said:
			
		

> It can be challenge sometimes to be very smooth and execute the techniques properly with correct body mechanics while on camera. People sometimes try too hard when they know they are under "the eye".
> - Ceicei


  Also very true, however I can still recognize good  movement from bad.



			
				Ceicei said:
			
		

> At least, they appear to enjoy what  they are doing.
> - Ceicei


 Affirmative....... I think we all agree on that point, but the main concerns of most who have commented, is more for the reality of what the martial arts skills that you have been taught, can offer you when in true time of need on the street.



			
				Ceicei said:
			
		

> I do hope that as they progress through the ranks, they become more realistic with what they do and focus on making things actually work, not just simply going through the motions.
> - Ceicei


  I am sure we all hope for the  most positive outcome for the students.



			
				Ceicei said:
			
		

> They should be  made *very aware* that even the best martial artist will not always come out  unscathed in a conflict.
> - Ceicei


 Again, a very important issue. We have no control over that, we can only hope that the instructors will do just as you have stated.

  BTW ... _*Great discussions*_ and interactions from all who have commented.... this platform gives us a great vehicle to "bounce' off of each other and learn.  Either you see a new perspective that you may not have considered before _*or*_ you validate an impression or opinion that you already have formulated.

 :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 9, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Schools like this are where people get the "Yeah, I saw a Kenpo black belt once, and gave him a whoopin" from.
> 
> Some people miss the intent presented in the name of technique, and how that should drive focus. Consider the name "5 swords". Swinging a sword to bury in an opponent, or dismember him, how much "oomph" should be present? "Thundering Hammers"...not "Tinkling Drumsticks". Get it? Should hear the impact from accross a field, as thunder, breaking things wherever they land, as hammers.
> 
> ...


 OMG....... you are bad   artyon:


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## Ceicei (Apr 9, 2005)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Ceicei,
> 
> What is your definition of an armchair quarterback? Around here that term identifies someone as a mere spectator that comments on a professionals performance without ever being in the profession himself. If that's the case I think you're looking at this from a narrow prespective. There are years of experience on this board. Most of the people commenting are people that have experience and are themselves practitioners in the art presented.


 Bill,
 I'll agree with you there. Probably a poor choice of words on my part to use the term "armchair quarterback" that loosely. What I was saying is a person making comments about something without actually being at that site and the situation that day when they were taped. I wasn't necessarily comparing this as a "professional performance" (and the clips certainly were not). 

 Nevertheless, is the problem just the individuals themselves who weren't simply that good (in other words, there are others there who are better), or is the problem rampant throughout the entire school that were being videotaped? If it is just the individuals and there are others who were better, then they didn't make a good choice of who to tape. If it is a school wide problem, then.... well, the instructor has to bear the responsibility.

 There are plenty here on this forum, as you've pointed out, who's been around the kenpo block more than once, and even were there with the original kenpo master. Who else, better than them, to be able to make comments on the kenpo performance of others? 



> While the people in the video are probably nice people (I don't know them) that doesn't change the fact that the demonstrated material on the videos is bad (and I mean really bad).


 Agreed. The material could and *should* have been shown much better. Was quality of techniques the focus of the video clips or did he have a different purpose, just simply to show "students are having fun" at that school? I suppose the average John and Jane Q with no MA background wouldn't know the difference if they were just looking around for a school. 



> Joe Montana is arguably one of the best quarterbacks of all time. If he were watching a game and commented on how bad it was being played, would he be considered an armchair quarterback? I mean, sheesh, if the players were running down the feild with their helmets on backwards I think it would be his obligation to say something before someone got hurt.
> 
> Just my opinion.


 A professional should indeed say something, of course. No, Joe Montana wouldn't be an armchair quarterback. I apologize again for my poor choice of words.

 Just at what level do you expect them to become really good, well enough to demonstrate properly on video? Do you expect the white-yellow-orange belts to be able to show timing, control, power, etc. from day one, or do you make allowance for them to learn and develop along the way? If so, when is your benchmark (just curious) that you measure the average student against for these skills to finally come together?

  - Ceicei


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## ikenpo (Apr 9, 2005)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> In the Five Swords there was no Stepping up the circle to gain torque.


 Is the primary purpose of moving up the circle in five swords to "gain torque"? 

jb :ubercool:


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Apr 9, 2005)

jbkenpo said:
			
		

> Is the primary purpose of moving up the circle in five swords to "gain torque"?
> 
> jb :ubercool:


No

DarK LorD


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Apr 9, 2005)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> There are plenty here on this forum, as you've pointed out, who's been around the kenpo block more than once, and even were there with the original kenpo master. Who else, better than them, to be able to make comments on the kenpo performance of others?
> A professional should indeed say something, of course. No, Joe Montana wouldn't be an armchair quarterback. I apologize again for my poor choice of words.
> 
> Just at what level do you expect them to become really good, well enough to demonstrate properly on video? Do you expect the white-yellow-orange belts to be able to show timing, control, power, etc. from day one, or do you make allowance for them to learn and develop along the way? If so, when is your benchmark (just curious) that you measure the average student against for these skills to finally come together?
> ...


 
I've got Yellow and Orange Belt that look 100 times more efficient than the Blue and Black Belts performing the techs, and I'm constantly bitchin' at them for everything LOL.   I've yet to see worse Kenpo than that, but I'm sure I'll see something worse down the road.   In fact, I've seen the UFAF (Chuck Norris' org.) guys do Kenpo techs. better than this as they've made some techs. (ie. Destructive Twins)  part of their curriculum as well.




DarK LorD


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## ikenpo (Apr 9, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> No
> 
> DarK LorD



Duuuuude, the question was for Mark.....lol...

jb


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## Ceicei (Apr 9, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> I've got Yellow and Orange Belt that look 100 times more efficient than the Blue and Black Belts performing the techs, and I'm constantly bitchin' at them for everything LOL.


  That's the way it should be.  I am really glad you care about the quality of your students.



			
				Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> I've yet to see worse Kenpo than that, but I'm sure I'll see something worse down the road. In fact, I've seen the UFAF (Chuck Norris' org.) guys do Kenpo techs. better than this as they've made some techs. (ie. Destructive Twins) part of their curriculum as well.
> 
> DarK LorD


 I didn't realize there would be other styles that aren't Kenpo based using Kenpo techs. Interesting! I suppose this shouldn't be surprising since Mr. Parker and Mr. Norris were acquainted with each other. I wonder how much sharing they did....

  - Ceicei


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## MJS (Apr 9, 2005)

As for the armchair quarter backing.  I've seen forums where people are bashing Kenpo left and right.  People have a habit of seeing something and right away, forming an opinion of it, even if they have not seen all that there is to see.  People who don't know any better, look at clips like this, and automatically assume that ALL Kenpo is like this, when in reality it is not, as there are many excellent people out there that can give a true demonstration as to what the art is really all about.

As I said before...anytime someone puts a clip out for the world to see, its a given that there will be some strong comments..some good and some bad.  However, I'd want to give the best display that I possibly could.

Mike


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## Brother John (Apr 9, 2005)

WOW......

5 Swords looks like a Happy little massage to the upper chest.

Your Brother (tooo bad)
John


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## mj-hi-yah (Apr 9, 2005)

I watched all of the video clips and I speak on this as a video editor and a person who studies Kenpo.  If that was the best I had to work with in terms of footage, and that was all that I was producing,  I probably would not have put it out there on the net.  Who knows how many takes they did to get clips that someone felt were strong?  To me these clips were not just a snapshot in time - a decision was made as to which clips would be worthy of representing the school, and these in my opinion were not clips of people learning but rather demonstrating a learned skill.  So if that is the best footage of the demonstrated techniques, than I am sorry to say the rest (the stuff that hits the editing room floor) must be really weak.  The only thing I did note from a videographer's perspective is that the girl in 5 Swords looked camera shy and perhaps was not taking it seriously (not that a hidden camera would necessarily change it much), but in all, there was not one redeeming clip and most disappointing was the black belt's performance.  

I do respect their willingness to try though, and I hope that if any of you who are in the clips read this you accept it as a learning experience and use it as a stepping stone to improve your Kenpo.  :asian:


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## Maltair (Apr 10, 2005)

They were deff practicing what my instructer calls "polite Kenpo" No intensity, Used while still learning the moves of a new tech. (In addition to all the other stuff said above). 
I'm not so afraid to post clips on the web now  I'll have to work on that...


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## hammer (Apr 11, 2005)

Wow Funny!


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 11, 2005)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> I watched all of the video clips and if that was the best I had to work with in terms of footage, I probably would not have put it out there on the net.
> 
> To me these clips were not just a snapshot in time - a decision was made as to which clips would be worthy of representing the school, and these in my opinion were not clips of people learning but rather demonstrating a learned skill.
> 
> ...


  "Those that do not know that they are walking in darkness will never see the   light."  

 If that's what they have been taught as good Kenpo, and not  been exposed to seminars or seen any of Kenpo's better practitioner's, then they  (like so many others) will have a rude awakening when they finally run across  someone that *IS* good.

 I just wonder if they know the difference  between what's "good" and what's "developmental" at what level or belt rank? 

 :idunno:


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 11, 2005)

Maltair said:
			
		

> They were practicing what my instructer calls "*polite Kenpo*" No intensity.


 Hey, I like that term!



			
				Maltair said:
			
		

> I'm not so afraid to post clips on the web now


 Yes, we can't wait!

 :asian:


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## Kenpodoc (Apr 11, 2005)

4 examples of the technique I like to call Fluttering Moth. I particularly like doing flashing mace inside the arms.

Jeff


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 11, 2005)

And y'all wonder why people dis Kenpo?  Of course, our good freind Clyde posted these same links on Bullshido.com in PR crusade for good Kenpo.  

But you know, it is pretty easy to embarass yourself via video...and make a perfectly respectable Kenpo school look cheesy:

You could do a school demo where you have people standing in square horses doing inward blocks...
http://dragonflyvillage.com/johnc

You could post a video of delayed sword that you created just to test your camera and website creation capabilities...
http://www.kenpoprofessor.com/Clyde_Video.html

You could venture outside your primary area of expertise...
http://www.ltatum.com/movies/Week22/TipOfTheWeekMedW22.html 

Or, you can make your quickly prepared Kenpo demo look cool by:

Hitting hard and Kiaing loudly...
http://www.stanford.edu/group/kenpo/demo.mov

Or, you can disguise your Kenpo by:

Diming the lights, positioning the camera far away, editing heavily, and adding cool music...
http://www.losaltoskarate.com/ 
(click the neon sign for the demo video)


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 11, 2005)

And that instructor bio was the first time I have ever seen anyone claim to train with both George Dilman AND Royce Gracie. :roflmao


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## Ceicei (Apr 11, 2005)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> And y'all wonder why people dis Kenpo?
> 
> But you know, it is pretty easy to embarass yourself via video...and make a perfectly respectable Kenpo school look cheesy:


  Actually, even those links you provide show much better kenpo than in the clip that was in the original post of this thread.

  - Ceicei


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 11, 2005)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Actually, even those links you provide show much better kenpo stuff than the one that was in the original post of this thread.
> 
> - Ceicei



Agreed.  Those Red Dragon videos are terrible!   

But my point is that it is pretty easy for a good Kenpoist to do something that really embarrasses themselves.  There was a lot of negative discussion about Clyde's Delayed Sword on the KenpoNet, lot's of negative discussion about Tatum's ground technique on several fora, and Santa Clara Kenpo is a top notch school--though you certainly couldn't tell from the demo clip.  

On the other hand, it is pretty easy for a good video producer to make you look good.  The lower ranking students I've seen at the Los Altos school sure don't move like the instructor instructor in the video.


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## Ceicei (Apr 11, 2005)

Yes, I recall those arguments over at KenpoNet....     Who's to say that Kenpo stylists don't love an "intense discussion"?  :wink:

   I do get your point.  At least these other clips didn't shy from displaying some power.

    - Ceicei


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## swiftpete (Apr 11, 2005)

this guy is the worst instructor i've ever seen. he actually looks like a white belt trying out a technique for the first time when he demonstrates. if i walked into the class and saw this guy instructing after laughing a lot i would walk out again. funny but completely gay, i'd love to see his limp floppy unsure style at one of our training sessions!

i actually reckon my 7 stone girlfriend would fare well against this guy in a full contact match up and she's never trained in her life.

the students are getting bumthraped if they're paying this guy anything.


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## swiftpete (Apr 11, 2005)

in case i was unclear i meant the original videos from when the thread was first started. pretty obvious but thought i'd add that.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 11, 2005)

swiftpete said:
			
		

> this guy is the worst instructor i've ever seen. he actually looks like a white belt trying out a technique for the first time when he demonstrates. if i walked into the class and saw this guy instructing after laughing a lot i would walk out again. funny but completely gay, i'd love to see his limp floppy unsure style at one of our training sessions!
> 
> i actually reckon my 7 stone girlfriend would fare well against this guy in a full contact match up and she's never trained in her life.
> 
> the students are getting bumthraped if they're paying this guy anything.



Gee, I'd love to see a ninjitsu video that was even half as good as the Red Dragon Kenpo videos.  Gotta link?


----------



## rmcrobertson (Apr 11, 2005)

First off, I'm not sure I see--well actually, I don't see at all--what's so terrible about a video showing a class of students starting out and warming up with a set of strong inward blocks. Even if the instructor's horse stance could stand a little work (and how good are yours?), looks pretty damn good to me. (I know, I know....Bruce Lee...the mess of tradition....they're not GRAPPLING!)

Second off, I'm not sure I see how anything Clyde or Mr. Tatum...actually, ya know what? The hell with it. Mr. Wortman, you simply don't know what you're talking about. Keep crusading! I know...the Emperor has no clothes? You're here to clean up martial arts? Good for you. Go git 'em. But I just permanently lost interest.

Now as for those videos in question, well, you don't even need to animate them to see that the yellow belt chic is in trouble from the git-go--she's never going to recover from the head-lock, not that there really was one. 

There were two nice comments here, one from Mr. Wortman, to the effect that it's one thing to do the stuff well, and another thing to look good on video. It was a good point, too, to say that this is "polite kenpo--" the moves are sorta there in embryonic form (for one thing, they're too little), but there's no stance, no power, no spirit.

What I find more interesting is that those videos suggest something about the, "internal," aspect to kenpo, which we often don't think about. That's partly why Mr. Chap'el insists on his "sub-level," kenpo--I suspect, from what I've read, that he's gotten more and more interested in all the stuff you DON'T see on those movies.

They're also a useful warning about what can happen to our own kenpo. For one thing, we can easily get all wrapped up in our own school--so much so that we lose sight of the world outside, or forget how we've manipulated to give ourselves a false sense of accomplishment. 

For another, how many times have you watched someone waving their hands, asked them what they were doing, and gotten the reply, "Oh, I was just remembering Long 5?" No stance, no movement, no focus--but they're remembering Long 5 or whatever. How different is that from those videos?

And last--what Das Clyde calls, as others have, "the spirit of the attack," and, "emotional content." There isn't any. And it's not because those guys aren't swaggering and beating each other with sticks--you can see emtional content in good t'ai chi, if you choose to look. To me, what was significant--and what's embarassing--about those videos--is that if you're honest, they exemplify tendencies that we all have to fight against. They may be extremes--but they're not nearly as different as we'd all like to think.

So here's the real question: suppose you got parachuted in to Help Those Poor Bastits. How would you do it? Me, I'd probably start teaching stance sets--then after they couldn't walk, I'd probably teach 'em how to dummy up and let nature take its course....


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 11, 2005)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Well, good to see that hobbyhorse, Alan.
> 
> First off, I'm not sure I see--well actually, I don't see at all--what's so terrible about a video showing a class of students starting out and warming up with a set of strong inward blocks. Even if the instructor's horse stance could stand a little work (and how good are yours?), looks pretty damn good to me. (I know, I know....Bruce Lee...the mess of tradition....they're not GRAPPLING!)
> 
> ...



First off, SC Kenpo are doing a KENPO demo in a HIGHLY COMPETITIVE Geography and they show the most basic and unimpressive movement possible...  Do you think they will attract anybody who is shopping around via the internet?  They are only a few miles from Cung Le, Ernie Reyes West Coast Martial Arts, a Gracie Academy, AKA Kickboxing, and about 80 others.  If your school was surrounded by competition of that level, wouldn't you put something more impressive on your website...  Well, lets seeyour school is in that kind of environment, and you do have many many very impressive video clips.  Dozens in fact.

Second off, you sure do write a lot for someone who has completely lost interest.  My only point  in linking to those two videos of your mentors was to show how easy it is for even good Kenpoists to make a video people might not like.  

As to the original videos in question, I will never be as eloquent as you.  I would simply say:  they suck.   The technique videos, and the sparring videos suck.  But, the point of my post was that they may not be wholly representativejust like Clydes Delayed Sword or SC Kenpos inward block demo.  

As to how to help these folks if I were parachuted inId suggest just a few things:  Think through the message you want to communicate via the demos, 
Do some heavy bag work and learn how to deliver power.
Do the attacks for real!
If the defender cant make the technique work, fight backmake it real!
Hit hard!  Techniques work better if you hit the Uke.


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Apr 11, 2005)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> On the other hand, it is pretty easy for a good video producer to make you look good.


This is a good point, and definitely true. It's possible to, and I have made a fight look like it had a whole different outcome from the truth just through editing. 

I also agree that at any given moment if a camera were to capture just anything I was practicing in Kenpo I for one would probably not want it out there for criticism, because the context would be unclear to the viewer, but in this instance these clips were chosen to represent the school's teaching and the students' capabilities, bad editing choices, maybe but I doubt it, but as a consolation they can always blame it on the editor! :uhyeah: Could there be some good things happening at that school? It's possible...

Goldendragon 7 parachute in there and show them the power of the force:jedi1: because honestly they looked like very nice people and I'd hate to see them get hurt because of a possible false sense of security.:asian:


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## The Kai (Apr 12, 2005)

My thought is that it is unlikely the people did'nt know they ere being filmned-so they should've been extra sharp.

The techniques, power and focus are horrible.  I can guarenntee you every karate person has has watched these videos has thought "See, kenpo is B.S."

If I could they would work on stances, Basics, Body Conditioning, getting used to getting hit, getting used to hitting.  Then start them on white belt stuff


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## rmcrobertson (Apr 12, 2005)

Well, the issue of presentation is a valid one--for example, it's often hard to tell on these Forums if a writer is actually a jerk, or if they're just not very good at presenting their ideas.

I recollect, years ago, that somebody I was in a technique line with who happened to be an actor said, "It's all just acting---you have to SELL the technique to the audience." I remember thinking, "No, you don't." And I'd still a lot rather see good blocks than the clever stuff that often gets passed off as significant.

And I often notice that martial students, when they try to improve, focus entirely on the external and entirely on the upper case. For example, they swing harder when the problem is really with where their feet are--or they fuss over what other students are doing, when the problem lies in their own training.


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## Amknpo (Apr 12, 2005)

In response to those that have mentioned Santa Clara Kenpo Karate.

Santa Clara has some of the most talented and gifted martial artists around.  Their hard work and strong work ethics from all of those involved at Santa Clara, from Mr. Sepulveda, Mr. Beltramo, to Mr. Chivers all speak for themselves.   They DO NOT and NEVER will need a video on the internet to sell their school.  Their reputation alone will continue to do that.  


Denise Plowman
Boise Valley Kenpo Karate


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## Seabrook (Apr 12, 2005)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> And I often notice that martial students, when they try to improve, focus entirely on the external and entirely on the upper case. For example, they swing harder when the problem is really with where their feet are--or they fuss over what other students are doing, when the problem lies in their own training.


Or they try to go as fast as possible to cover up their precision...I used to do that years ago!

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 12, 2005)

Amknpo said:
			
		

> In response to those that have mentioned Santa Clara Kenpo Karate.
> 
> Santa Clara has some of the most talented and gifted martial artists around.  Their hard work and strong work ethics from all of those involved at Santa Clara, from Mr. Sepulveda, Mr. Beltramo, to Mr. Chivers all speak for themselves.   They DO NOT and NEVER will need a video on the internet to sell their school.  Their reputation alone will continue to do that.
> 
> ...



I agree that SC Kenpo is a top Kenpo school.  I studied there briefly in 1997 - 1998 and had been acquainted with Mr. Sepulveda for more than 15 years prior to that via local tournaments co-sponsored by our two schools.   Mr. Beltramo personally handed me my most complete and most painful tournament sparring defeat ever.  I have a friend who trains there and he also has nothing but superlatives for the school and staff.

I am sure that Kenpo cognoscenti in the San Jose area will continue to make SC Kenpo a first choice as they have for over 25 years.

But, for those who have not yet selected EPAK or who are not familiar with the school's reputation, how will they decide?  The San Jose area is one of the most competitive martial arts markets in the US (perhaps only L.A., OC, and NYC are more competitive).  The internet has replaced the Yellow Pages as the primary marketing tool for martial artists.  If I was unfamiliar with the local schools, and had to pick a dozen schools to visit out of the 200 or so within a 1/2 hour drive, based on what I found via Yahoo and Google, then Mr. Chivers video demonstrations would not earn him a spot on my short list.


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## swiftpete (Apr 12, 2005)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Gee, I'd love to see a ninjitsu video that was even half as good as the Red Dragon Kenpo videos. Gotta link?


hey..i'm not slagging off the martial art, just the practitioner. This guy is supposed to be the instructor and highly graded as well. Surely you don't think he looks effective do you? I'm sure he's not a true representative of the art done properly, so don't get your knickers in a twist!

And in response to your question, no i don't know any links to ninjutsu videos if i did i would happily post. I'd actually like to watch some good ones myself.


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## Marcus Buonfiglio (Apr 12, 2005)

Santa Clara has some of the most talented and gifted martial artists around.  Their hard work and strong work ethics from all of those involved at Santa Clara, from Mr. Sepulveda, Mr. Beltramo, to Mr. Chivers all speak for themselves.    


Denise Plowman
Boise Valley Kenpo Karate[/QUOTE]

I will wholehartedly agree with your statement. Having spent the first 14 years of my Kenpo journey with the group at Santa Clara Kenpo I can attest to the work ethic and talent that John Sepulveda has demanded and willingly recieved of his students. Allthough I haven't seen the video of Mr. Chivers, I can attest to his tallent. Like many of the students there he is solid and bangs at all aspects of Kenpo.  
Mr. Wortman, could you please provide a link if possible to the video of Mr. Chivers? I would love to see it.

Regards
Marcus Buonfiglio


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 12, 2005)

Hello Marcus,  How are you?

Here is the link:  http://dragonflyvillage.com/johnc

Hey, I have some video of you from a tournament in 1992 or 93 in Santa Clara.  You won the Grand Championship.  You won 1st place doing Form 6, got 3rd place in Self-Defense Technique Demonstration (I got 2nd), and I think you got 1st place in light or middle-weight freestyle (I was pulverized by Larry Beltramo for a 1st round elimination).


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## Marcus Buonfiglio (Apr 12, 2005)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Hello Marcus,  How are you?
> 
> Here is the link:  http://dragonflyvillage.com/johnc
> 
> Hey, I have some video of you from a tournament in 1992 or 93 in Santa Clara.  You won the Grand Championship.  You won 1st place doing Form 6, got 3rd place in Self-Defense Technique Demonstration (I got 2nd), and I think you got 1st place in light or middle-weight freestyle (I was pulverized by Larry Beltramo for a 1st round elimination).



Hi Allen,
Thanks for the link. I am doing well, thanks. Still training and teaching. Allen, if at all possible I would love to see that video or better yet I would be happy to compensate you for a copy of that video. I have very little in the way of video from that part of my training and I would welcome the memories. 
I remember the tourney. They knocked me down in the technique division because I forgot to include a weapon defense. Hell I didn't even know that I was supposed to! (that'swhat happens when you don't read the rules lol) I remember sparring with Beltramo. A lesson in frustration. And the thing is, he is a lot better now than he was back then. Thanks for the stirring of fond memories and let me know about the video.

Regards
Marcus Buonfiglio


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## Marcus Buonfiglio (Apr 12, 2005)

Marcus Buonfiglio said:
			
		

> Hi Allen,
> Sorry about the mispelling of your name Alan. I was typing and not checking.
> 
> Markuss


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 12, 2005)

Marcus Buonfiglio said:
			
		

> Hi Allen,
> Thanks for the link. I am doing well, thanks. Still training and teaching. Allen, if at all possible I would love to see that video or better yet I would be happy to compensate you for a copy of that video. I have very little in the way of video from that part of my training and I would welcome the memories.
> I remember the tourney. They knocked me down in the technique division because I forgot to include a weapon defense. Hell I didn't even know that I was supposed to! (that'swhat happens when you don't read the rules lol) I remember sparring with Beltramo. A lesson in frustration. And the thing is, he is a lot better now than he was back then. Thanks for the stirring of fond memories and let me know about the video.
> 
> ...



It's a 2nd generation copy--so not the best picture quality.  I will try to get the good sections copied.  Fortunately, nobody filmed Larry mopping the floor with me in Freestyle.  I'll PM you with my e-mail address.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 12, 2005)

Marcus Buonfiglio said:
			
		

> Marcus Buonfiglio said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Michael Billings (Apr 12, 2005)

I know Mr. Chivers personally (and Mr. Beltramo, Mr. Bonfigliano, and of course Mr. Sepulveda).  That school is undoubtedly one of the most well rounded ones I have ever EVER, seen.  From Mr. Beltramo's Friday night banging class, 2 hour workout then he fights everyone who attended ... to serious grappling and submission.  Mr. Chivers is a great guy who just bought the school when Mr. Sepulveda retired.  He had been teaching there for years.  

 I have seen and felt him work.  The video in no way represents what goes on at the school, it is an advertisment guys, a "hook" for the public.  The few seconds of video watching inward blocks, probably looks to the neophyte like "gee mom, here is some real karate".  Don't let it fool you regarding how he moves, what his students learn, or how well rounded the school is.  It would be a serious underestimation of what goes on there.

 -Michael


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 12, 2005)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> I know Mr. Chivers personally (and Mr. Beltramo, Mr. Bonfigliano, and of course Mr. Sepulveda).  That school is undoubtedly one of the most well rounded ones I have ever EVER, seen.  From Mr. Beltramo's Friday night banging class, 2 hour workout then he fights everyone who attended ... to serious grappling and submission.  Mr. Chivers is a great guy who just bought the school when Mr. Sepulveda retired.  He had been teaching there for years.
> 
> I have seen and felt him work.  The video in no way represents what goes on at the school, it is an advertisment guys, a "hook" for the public.  The few seconds of video watching inward blocks, probably looks to the neophyte like "gee mom, here is some real karate".  Don't let it fool you regarding how he moves, what his students learn, or how well rounded the school is.  It would be a serious underestimation of what goes on there.
> 
> -Michael



I agree completely.  And that was my point in posting the link to the video.  You can't judge the school by the video.

This thread started out as a bash on Red Dragon because of the poor Kenpo demonstrated in their videos.  Is Red Dragon Kenpo bad Kenpo?  I don't know.  If all I had to judge them by was the videos, then I'd say "yes."


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## The Kai (Apr 12, 2005)

In most of the "other videos" sited the basics and control were there

Red dragon had no powere, focus...etc


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 12, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> In most of the "other videos" sited the basics and control were there
> 
> Red dragon had no powere, focus...etc



Yup, agree.  But has anyone here visited the school?


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## Doc (Apr 12, 2005)

howardr said:
			
		

> http://www.reddragonmaa.com/Kenpo Training Videos.htm



http://www.ackks.com/returning_thunder.avi

At least he has the "pose" down to go with those double bars.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 12, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> http://www.ackks.com/returning_thunder.avi
> 
> At least he has the "pose" down to go with those double bars.



Big gut, lotsa patches, double red bars, slappy strikes...looks like me, except I don't have patches or double red bars.


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## Maltair (Apr 13, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> http://www.ackks.com/returning_thunder.avi


That was cool, I liked the way it sounded.


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## lonekimono10 (Apr 13, 2005)

Being that this man is from New Jersey and thats where i live , called him and asked him where did he get his kenpo from? he told me that sometimes he go's to tatum camps and gets it, and that he has no real kenpo teacher.
 then i remerber going to his school in early feb to drop off some imfor for my camp, i have to say that the videos ,there are no words. but after talking with him(Robert) we are going to get together.


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## The Kai (Apr 13, 2005)

Well that's a step in the right direction!!
Hopefully you can get him some quality!!


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## lonekimono10 (Apr 13, 2005)

well now if you guys want to talk about me it's not nice to say bad things about someone ,and by the way what to you mean i have a BIG GUT and talking about my rank??? what did i do to have people talk about ME like that.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 13, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> well now if you guys want to talk about me it's not nice to say bad things about someone ,and by the way what to you mean i have a BIG GUT and talking about my rank??? what did i do to have people talk about ME like that.



No offense Mr. Elmer.  Mine's as big as yours.  And, I don't dispute any individual's Kenpo rank.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 13, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> well now if you guys want to talk about me it's not nice to say bad things about someone ,and by the way what to you mean i have a BIG GUT and talking about my rank??? what did i do to have people talk about ME like that.


Now, keeping in mind my own background had some skeletons in the closet...

It's all about the red bars. Too many guys in kenpo walking around wearing the same rank Parker wore in his last days with us. Only a handful of men have the background to wear them...years of close training and relationship with the founder of American Kenpo. Even among the closest disciples, there are some who won't approach wearing a 10th. Like Clyde said once...if you're doing your own thing, wear your own thing. Wearing the Parker kenpo indicators places your self with Parker. Far cry.

Regards,

Dave


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## lonekimono10 (Apr 13, 2005)

i'm sorry i took it the wrong way , but Alan you have got to send me a picture of yourself, or if you hav a web site i'll go there and look,(bald head do u really?)


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## lonekimono10 (Apr 13, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Now, keeping in mind my own background had some skeletons in the closet...
> 
> It's all about the red bars. Too many guys in kenpo walking around wearing the same rank Parker wore in his last days with us. Only a handful of men have the background to wear them...years of close training and relationship with the founder of American Kenpo. Even among the closest disciples, there are some who won't approach wearing a 10th. Like Clyde said once...if you're doing your own thing, wear your own thing. Wearing the Parker kenpo indicators places your self with Parker. Far cry.
> 
> ...


 

 Well Dave i think that would be better to say to some others,but if you go to my site then you will see what i'm about, and look at this whe Mr Parker
 was still here it was not like it is today, but i don't see anyone saying anything about what the rest of Parkers right hand men,and what they did when he died, 
 and i want to say this i teach" American chinese kenpo" yes i know Parker kenpo, but i don't give rank in AK,only ackks. now who was the frist one to put the double bars on when Mr Parker passed ?? mmmm now who could that be?


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## Doc (Apr 13, 2005)

For the record, I personally am a tad sensitive about anyone wearing the double bars attributed to Ed Parker's rank. Although many would insist they are not doing any version of Ed Parker's Kenpo, the "double bar" rank is directly from Mr. Parker's method of designating rank. No one wore it before him, (the idea origintes with Sibok Tom Kelly) and unfortunately, many are wearing it now. As far as I'm concerned, no one is qualified. (I told you I was sensitive about it)


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 13, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Now, keeping in mind my own background had some skeletons in the closet...
> 
> It's all about the red bars. Too many guys in kenpo walking around wearing the same rank Parker wore in his last days with us. Only a handful of men have the background to wear them...years of close training and relationship with the founder of American Kenpo. Even among the closest disciples, there are some who won't approach wearing a 10th. Like Clyde said once...if you're doing your own thing, wear your own thing. Wearing the Parker kenpo indicators places your self with Parker. Far cry.
> 
> ...



Since this thread appears to be taking a slightly different direction I would like to say that...I said it before...and I'll say it again...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8067&highlight=time+promote+kenpo+grandmasters



			
				Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Since the passing of Ed Parker more than a few of the most-senior Kenpo grandmasters have ascended to 10th Dan. Some in the Kenpo community believe that only Mr. Parker deserves 10th Dan and that any other 10th Dan promotions are disrespectful of Mr. Parker's great achievements.
> 
> As all who wear the two large red-bands upon their belt are far above me in skill, achievement, experience, and contribution, I am unable and unwilling to dispute any of these promotions. Certainly, these Senior Kenpoists are now and have been making significant contributions to keeping the Kenpo flame going. Certainly these Seniors are continuing to improve their skill, knowledge, and teaching and deserve recognition for this.
> 
> ...


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 13, 2005)

ok, i have a question on this sensitive subject. 
does the fact that someone created their own system make them a master, and should that person hold the rank of judan (from my knowledge, this rank in japan was usually awarded after a great master died in respect of their contributions)?
personally, i think judan is something that should be awarded by a group of ones peers as acknowldgement of both skill and continuing contribution to the education of "all" martial artists.
i say all martial artists simply because when one has such a high level of skill, their teaching usually transcends stylistic boundries and offers all students something of substance to learn in their personal art.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 13, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> ok, i have a question on this sensitive subject.
> does the fact that someone created their own system make them a master, and should that person hold the rank of judan (from my knowledge, this rank in japan was usually awarded after a great master died in respect of their contributions)?
> personally, i think judan is something that should be awarded by a group of ones peers as acknowldgement of both skill and continuing contribution to the education of "all" martial artists.
> i say all martial artists simply because when one has such a high level of skill, their teaching usually transcends stylistic boundries and offers all students something of substance to learn in their personal art.



I believe Judan was awarded posthumously to Jigoro Kano the founder of Judo.  I do not believe anyone else in any Japanese style was ever awarded this rank.

But this is America and we are a free country!  And if we want to promote each other to 12th degree then I say G_d Bless America!!!


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 13, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> i'm sorry i took it the wrong way , but Alan you have got to send me a picture of yourself, or if you hav a web site i'll go there and look,(bald head do u really?)


Check my avatar.


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## lonekimono10 (Apr 13, 2005)

LOL u r crazy:ultracool


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 13, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> LOL u r crazy:ultracool



Certifiable.  Thank you.  
P.S.  my company makes WebCams...


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## Michael Billings (Apr 13, 2005)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Certifiable.  Thank you.
> P.S.  my company makes WebCams...


 Glad to put a face with a name ... 
 -Michael


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## lonekimono10 (Apr 13, 2005)

Michael how the hell r u?? it's been a long time pizaino


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## Sapper6 (Apr 13, 2005)

well, while we're in the business of changing the topic at hand...

OFK...nice mug

lonekimono...why the 10th degree?  why did you create your own organization based upon material of the last 2 belts?  it seems you followed the Parker curriculum all the way up to brown and then made some new stuff.  i know this is an entirely new discussion altogether but...oh well.

american chinese?

i'm sorry, i'll stop now.

back to the topic at hand, irregardless of how you look at it, the videos posted claim it's orgin as American Kenpo.  it is not.  it sucks.  if this is what the virgin public views American Kenpo as, then we all have a pretty bad rep already.  what is clearly shown as Five Swords is not.  i'm sorry, a block/check and 4 chops on the chest is NOT Five Swords.  don't call it what it clearly is not!

there is much to be learned from this sort of bizarre behavior.  learn from it what you wish.  call it what you wish.  the truth lies elsewhere.


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## lonekimono10 (Apr 13, 2005)

Sapper i don't know what you are looking at, when it comes to my teq's
 oh and another thing "American chinese" (and you should have done your homework) the American part of it is from Parker Kenpo, the chinese part of it is from Tracy kenpo.
 now i see that you were born in 1978, so if that is when you were born what year did you START YOUR TRAINING IN KENPO? you see what i mean????
  now don't get mad when i say this, but young man i was doing kenpo 
 when you were still playing with toys,so before you start saying stuff about other people in the arts look and see who they are and what there backgroung is.
  and sapper i was 10 when i started kenpo that was in 1965.

  have a good day


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## howardr (Apr 13, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> Sapper i don't know what you are looking at, when it comes to my teq's


I might be wrong but I think he wasn't criticizing your videos but the first videos in the link I posted here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=376441&postcount=1


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## Sapper6 (Apr 14, 2005)

correct howard.  my reference to Five Swords is directed back at the original topic of this thread, not at Elmer.

Mr Elmer, no offense taken.  i respect the fact you have so many years behind what you do.  still not as many as others, especially the few who still hold reverence for the Senior Grandmaster title in Kenpo.


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## The Kai (Apr 14, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> ok, i have a question on this sensitive subject.
> does the fact that someone created their own system make them a master, and should that person hold the rank of judan (from my knowledge, this rank in japan was usually awarded after a great master died in respect of their contributions)?
> personally, i think judan is something that should be awarded by a group of ones peers as acknowldgement of both skill and continuing contribution to the education of "all" martial artists.
> i say all martial artists simply because when one has such a high level of skill, their teaching usually transcends stylistic boundries and offers all students something of substance to learn in their personal art.


Yet the higher in rank you are the more signitures you have.
A shotokan looks more like a Shotokan stylist
A Kenpo man looks more Kenpo
Etc
Each system has its own take on basics, presentation of techniques
Allthough a high ranking Kenpoist might incorporate throws into his system he will perform, enter into and finish like a Kenpo Guy not so much a Judo Guy.  Sure there will be similiarities in postures.  by the same token there are similarties between a Airplane and a car!
BTW the techine in the red dragon video still suck


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## lonekimono10 (Apr 14, 2005)

i'm going to be in touch with the guy who teachers that stuff, and like i said early on maybe he will see what motion is all about,
  when i get there the frist thing i will look at is the star block, and short one,
  and then i will go from there, (i love to see what the N.bow looks like)


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## The Kai (Apr 14, 2005)

I don't think your gonna want to get to technical on him


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 14, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> Well Dave i think that would be better to say to some others,but if you go to my site then you will see what i'm about, and look at this whe Mr Parker
> was still here it was not like it is today, but *i don't see anyone saying anything about what the rest of Parkers right hand men,and what they did when he died, *
> *and i want to say this i teach" American chinese kenpo" yes i know Parker kenpo, but i don't give rank in AK,only ackks. now who was the frist one to put the double bars on when Mr Parker passed ?? mmmm now who could that be?*


For the record, I have been a vocal critic of the behavior of many of Mr. Parker's top guys after his passing. I have stated in the past quite clearly that I thought the behavior of several seniors was shameful, bothering Mrs. Parker to name them the next big cheese before the news of Mr. Parkers dance to the next life had even been made public. Many, upon NOT recieving blessings from the family to be the next "King", self-appointed themselves Monarch and started their own organizations to support their claims. Much of this done even before services were held. Many guys jumped from 4th to 8th, 9th, or 10th, with nothing in between but opportunity for self-advancement. 

Their behavior was shameful. Using theirs to justify yours lacks honor at best.

I support each man in doing what floats his boat. The problem I have is with how you've elected to indicate rank/position within your respective organization. The double bars have been the Parker's Kenpo designation for 10th degree black for decades; indicators no other system used prior to Parker. There are a few who wear the red today who were long-time associates of Parker, some on good terms; some on uneven terms. In my mind, when you put on the bars, you are saying you are on par with not only Parker, but the senior 1st generation professors who came after, and wear the bars: Tatum, Planas, etc.  Balls to do this, considering there are several 1st gen seniors who still refuse to wear them, and know significantly more about Parker kenpo in it's various incarnations than you will likely ever. Mr. Chapel wears a plain old black belt with no fancy colorations. The last couple of times I saw Mr. White, he was wearing a plain old black belt with no colors on it. The people who need to know who they are, do. Nobody else really matters.

Wearing double bars says to the world that you are on the same knowledge and skill playing field as the Parker's, Chapels, Whites, Tatums, Palanzo's, Trejos' & Planas' of the world, and from what I've seen of the videos on your website, it ain't so. 

What I'm saying is basically this: If you want to teach ACKKS as a 10th founder in ACKKS, then design your own indicator of that status, instead of copying one that has an established meaning for a worldwide comunity. Wear a red belt. Wear a red & white or black paneled belt. Wear a gold belt with your name and phone number on it. But, out of respect for the men who were there in the trenches with the founder of kenpo in the US as its mostly known today, hold off on the red bars. Seniors who were with him before I was born in 1965 don't even do it out of respect for the man and his memory.

My opinion; you can take it or leave it.

Regards,

Dave Crouch, DC


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 14, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> For the record, I have been a vocal critic of the behavior of many of Mr. Parker's top guys after his passing. I have stated in the past quite clearly that I thought the behavior of several seniors was shameful, bothering Mrs. Parker to name them the next big cheese before the news of Mr. Parkers dance to the next life had even been made public. Many, upon NOT recieving blessings from the family to be the next "King", self-appointed themselves Monarch and started their own organizations to support their claims. Much of this done even before services were held. Many guys jumped from 4th to 8th, 9th, or 10th, with nothing in between but opportunity for self-advancement.
> 
> Their behavior was shameful. Using theirs to justify yours lacks honor at best.
> 
> ...



C'mon Dave:  All those other belts have meanings in other styles as well.  And there are plenty of Kenpo/Kempo folks in lots of associations with 10th degrees wearing double red bars, red belts, plain black belts, lotsa red stripes, lotsa white stripes, gold borders, black borders, etc.. 

George has his own Kenpo curriculum and in America anybody can wear any belt they want.

It is up to the uninitiated and uninformed American consumer to exercise their G_d-given responsibility of Caveat Emptor when undertaking any course of instruction in our wonderful unregulated industry.


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 14, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Yet the higher in rank you are the more signitures you have.
> A shotokan looks more like a Shotokan stylist
> A Kenpo man looks more Kenpo
> Etc
> ...


hey todd
what i am basically saying has nothing to do with what the guy looks like when he is practicing his art. it has everything to do with the fact that no matter what style you practice, this person can offer you something because of his vast knowledge. if that wasnt the case, people wouldnt be so curious to go  and participate in seminars that these people hold. oftentimes a lot of these guys that have been martial artists for 35 or 40 years pick up stuff off of each other, and they are able to do it because as they get older their egos shrink (im not saying this is true of everyone).


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## Doc (Apr 14, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Yet the higher in rank you are the more signitures you have.
> A shotokan looks more like a Shotokan stylist
> A Kenpo man looks more Kenpo
> Etc
> ...


I'm sorry but I believe the expression "SUCK" is my defacto copyright on MartialTalk, however if you use it in proper context - you may continue to utilize it.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 14, 2005)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> C'mon Dave: All those other belts have meanings in other styles as well. And there are plenty of Kenpo/Kempo folks in lots of associations with 10th degrees wearing double red bars, red belts, plain black belts, lotsa red stripes, lotsa white stripes, gold borders, black borders, etc..
> 
> George has his own Kenpo curriculum and in America anybody can wear any belt they want.
> 
> It is up to the uninitiated and uninformed American consumer to exercise their G_d-given responsibility of Caveat Emptor when undertaking any course of instruction in our wonderful unregulated industry.


You know, I'm usually with you on things Alan. This on, though...

Just cuz some guys pee in the pool, doesn't mean every Tom, Dick & Harry with a full bladder should avoid taking themselves out of the water and visiting the mens room. 

I got me a 5th in CK, then worked with a bunch of guys from different kenpo sub-systems, BJJ, and some other things to put together an eclectic training program. Teaching my own thing, I still didn't go out and throw on a coupla bars. The black belts for the system had the name of the style written on them in red. The core team of co-developers had the same thing written on thiers, but in gold...our gift to our ego's to seperate us from the guys we taught. That's it. Writing. Why? Because bars would have communicated to the surrounding world that I held myself as an equal to the clever Hawaiian who started this whole movment.  Not only would I not go there out of respect for the memory and life work of the man, I would like to think that the guys in my area who ARE near or at that level would have called me to task over it and beaten the crap outta me. That's how business used to be done.

But then again, maybe I'm just an old-fashioned romantic.

Regards,

Dave


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## rmcrobertson (Apr 14, 2005)

I dunno--makes sense to me.

But then, I never understood why people would bother to lie in the first place--quite frankly, some of those who pull this stuff seem more than impressive enough for my taste, without all the fantasy.


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## lonekimono10 (Apr 15, 2005)

I don't know guy's everyone wants to talk about what the person has around his/her gi, peeing in a pool?? and tom, dick, and Harry (i went to school with them) LOL but anyway people will always have somethig to say about this person, that person,thats why when we go to a camp you don't see the UNDER BELTS hanging with the Blackbelts (unless family) .
 It seems to me that the young people in the arts have something to say about peoples rank(and some young Blackbelts VERY YOUNG Blackbelts)
   now thats something that should be adressed, but i don't see anyone having
 a ***** about that??people say "oh look little joey got his blackbelt," but little joey is only 7 years old, whats up with that??no, no, people say thats ok but then they talk about the person who wears a 8th, 9th AND 10th
   hope i made the point, now i have to go pee in my pool.


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## The Kai (Apr 15, 2005)

1.) _say all martial artists simply because when one has such a high level of skill, their teaching usually transcends stylistic boundries and offers all students something of substance to learn in their personal art._

_2.)what i am basically saying has nothing to do with what the guy looks like when he is practicing his art. it has everything to do with the fact that no matter what style you practice, this person can offer you something because of his vast knowledge_

Shawn
While I am in complete agreement about the second point, the first point I would still dispute.  While a JudoKa might punch, he would strike differently for different reasons and of varing targets from that of say a Kenpo man


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 15, 2005)

hi todd
sure there might be differences in the way a judoka strikes in comparison to kempoka. but understanding the differences and seeing the way they might appraoch a situation is exactly the reason you would look at it. the only reason people refuse or hesitate to incorporate new knowledge is ego and comfort level. 
doc has said that he has had his share of skeptics in his class and invites people to ask questions or put what he does to the test to find out for themselves. the people that discount it altogether are the ones who arent able to accept something outside of their comfort zone, its easier to pretend its not there rather than deal with it.
just like in medicine, there are many ways to skin a cat, or treat disease. all approaches do not work on all people, but there are a few proven ones that do work on all people. 
i also stated that the person would be able to offer something of substance to apply to their "personal" art. while a person might study kempo or karate, it isnt exactly the same as another guy learning at the same school.


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 15, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> I don't know guy's everyone wants to talk about what the person has around his/her gi, peeing in a pool?? and tom, dick, and Harry (i went to school with them) LOL *1.* *but anyway people will always have somethig to say about this person, that person,thats why when we go to a camp you don't see the UNDER BELTS hanging with the Blackbelts (unless family) .*
> It seems to me that the young people in the arts have something to say about peoples rank(and some young Blackbelts VERY YOUNG Blackbelts)
> now thats something that should be adressed, but i don't see anyone having
> a ***** about that??*2. people say "oh look little joey got his blackbelt," but little joey is only 7 years old, whats up with that??no, no, people say thats ok but then they talk about the person who wears a 8th, 9th AND 10th*
> hope i made the point, now i have to go pee in my pool.


1. i think that a lot of people that have black belts and especially the ones that have high ranking black belts have egos that are way out of control. thats why the "underbelts" dont hang with them.......they make themselves unapproachable like they are a freaking rockstar. most guys on the street couldnt give a rats behind about someones martial art ranking, and will treat you like they would treat anyone else. as soon as the gi and belt come out, some guys want all kinds of respect bestowed upon them. i dont know if johnny 10th dan has acheived that rank legitimately, or just decided to wear it when he started quack-fu. you can ususally pick out those guys though......they are the ones walking around with their chests all puffed out thinking they are the shiznit. i dont think people should be worried about voicing an opinion, and they shouldnt have to worry if all things need to be settled on the mat. if you are a 10th dan, you should be the most approachable guy in a place, because you are advertising that you pretty much have all the tools.

2. i think people are laughing at the teacher that gave little joey his blackbelt. its obvious this teacher doesnt know squat, and if the teacher that gave little joey his shodan is an 8th, 9th, or 10th, people should be talking about him.....saying stay far away.

face it....people are opinionated. the frauds know who they are and some of them make a good buck at it.
i couldnt care less if i ever get above a shodan, the only person it should matter to is me........ive been wearing the same belt for the last 6 years and will probably continue to wear it if my gut allows it.


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## The Kai (Apr 15, 2005)

.) _say all martial artists simply because when one has such a high level of skill, their teaching usually *transcends* stylistic boundries and offers all students something of substance to learn in their personal art._
 I'm sorry I understood your first post to have the all arts become one thingy, not so much all arts can learn from each other. Inso far as many ways to skin a cat, you are still skinning a cat.  There are many ways to do kenpo, you are still doing kenpo-not joda, aikido or kung fu
So, doc is in a class (no offense to doc, but your name was cited)-he is running a vigerous program relating sl4 concepts.  A young Tae kwon Do Black Belt demonstraates a jumping kick.  Is it egitistical to say SL4 concepts have nothing to do with Jump kicks?


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 15, 2005)

well i cant and wont speak for doc......but id say its a fair guess on my part to say that the concepts he teaches would be applicable no matter what you're studying


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 15, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> You know, I'm usually with you on things Alan. This on, though...
> 
> Just cuz some guys pee in the pool, doesn't mean every Tom, Dick & Harry with a full bladder should avoid taking themselves out of the water and visiting the mens room.
> 
> ...



You know, I do agree with you.  I think the whole concept of advanced rank in Kenpo is way out of control.  But, I treasure the freedom we have as Americans to engage in all sorts of puffery.


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## The Kai (Apr 15, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> well i cant and wont speak for doc......but id say its a fair guess on my part to say that the concepts he teaches would be applicable no matter what you're studying


Sure but they would be most appliciable and most effective studying SL4.  Given enough time and enough force I could force a round peg into a square hole


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 15, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> I'm sorry but I believe the expression "SUCK" is my defacto copyright on MartialTalk, however if you use it in proper context - you may continue to utilize it.


Now you are starting to upset me, with all your claiming of "copyrights and exclusivity's" of rants etc. on Martial Talk!  If you keep this up..... the GoldenDragon is going to be forced to challenge you to a meeting at Won Kok!!!! {at your expense}

:flammad:


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## rmcrobertson (Apr 15, 2005)

OK, that's it. I'm trademarking Intellectual Pomposity.

From now on, nobody but me is allowed to cite Freud and medieval literature when we're discussing inward blocks. Without a low-priced licensing agreement, that is.


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## The Kai (Apr 15, 2005)

That's just your Id talking!


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 15, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I support each man in doing what floats his boat. The problem I have is with *how* you've elected to indicate rank/position within your respective organization.
> 
> The double bars have been the Parker's Kenpo designation for 10th degree black for decades (actually a Tom Kelly suggestion); indicators no other system used prior to Parker.
> 
> ...


Agreed
:asian:


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 15, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Sure but they would be most appliciable and most effective studying SL4. Given enough time and enough force I could force a round peg into a square hole


todd, i think you're missing the point. any sound principle is applicable to any art. you seem to want things in a tidy little package. in an earlier post you mentioned kicking......do people not kick in kempo?
i realize that the purpose of the techniques is to have a tidy package of technical movements, but their purpose is designed to teach the underlying principles, which should be applicable to any movement, whether you're studying judo, kempo, karate etc.


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## lonekimono10 (Apr 15, 2005)

wow all this reading is making my eyes water .

       "we do what we do because we do it"
       but if we don't do it the same way as the other person(same style of course)
      than thats when people will have something to say.
 why?? look i don't give a rats *** what belt someone wears, because when it comes down to getting down(on the floor) you will know for sure.
 now getting back to what this was all about, it was that kenpo clip, now we all know that it was really rocky and yes i will say this 5 swords was messed up
 and that backbeaker was well we all now,but the man went to Tatum camps and picked this stuff up like i said i called him and we are going to get together(he has no teacher in kenpo)
 let me ask everyone something,, if i was in a boat and i fell overboard and i only just learned how to swin, and a couple you guys were there would some one jump in and save me /help me??


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## Doc (Apr 15, 2005)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Now you are starting to upset me, with all your claiming of "copyrights and exclusivity's" of rants etc. on Martial Talk!  If you keep this up..... the GoldenDragon is going to be forced to challenge you to a meeting at Won Kok!!!! {at your expense}
> 
> :flammad:


Yeah right. You sneak into California, and sneak out, and won't even answer your dam phone. That "sucks."


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## Doc (Apr 15, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> well i cant and wont speak for doc......but id say its a fair guess on my part to say that the concepts he teaches would be applicable no matter what you're studying


I'd like to think you are correct sir. Most that visit me are NOT from Kenpo. Too many egos in Southern Cal or simply happy where they are. Either way, I interact and have helped students and instructors from Penjak Silat, W.A.R., Aikido. Jiujitsu, and Sanuces Ryu on an ongoing basis. Tae Kwon Do, Muey Tai, Bando, Capoeira, Shotokan, and Shorin Ryu, etc as well. I have a gentleman who stops into the school and sits for two night a week while on patrol until he gets a call for the last year, from a well known knife fighting system without fail. All of these have told me they have been helped by my instructioon and sharing of information. The only "Kenpo" visditor I have had has been Robert Temple from the BKF, who in his own words was, "Stunned." I am not looking to "fix" anyone, only share information with those genuinely interested. Through this I not only honor my promise to my teacher, but I maintian the integrity of what I teach with the "science" first and everything, and everyone else, second.


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## KENPOJOE (Apr 15, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> http://www.ackks.com/returning_thunder.avi
> 
> At least he has the "pose" down to go with those double bars.


Hi Folks!
I saw this thread go from Red Dragon Martial arts in New Jersey to Santa Clara and now to George Elmer...Since I know Mr. Elmer I felt I should write regarding him and my experiences with him.
I first saw Mr. Elmer on the "sportchannel" or "ESPN" network demonstrating a double stick form at Dominic Gacobee's Taj Mahal Tournament. I remembers the swift dynamic,explosive movements and placed a "mental bookmark" to try to find out who this person was at another date. Later, I would attend the New England UKS kenpo camp in Springfield,Massachusetts,sponsored by Mr. Steve Swereki [sp] featuring Bryan Hawkins,Tommy Burke,Howard Silva,Steven Sears as well as many others. This was the first time that I met george elmer. If you knew me at that time, you knew about my "perm" days [why I would opt to have pseudo "pubic hair" on my head I'll never know!  :rofl: ] But,anyways, I watched george as he demonstrated his version of the techniques of ACKKS, Again, I saw him move with explosiveness and power and couldn't help but think for a brief moment "He moves like Mr. Parker..." He had formulated his own techniques based on his primary training in the Tracy and Parker systems, with his own unique slant on the actions with his own unique terminology. Simply stated, the man could do Kenpo and do it well and "make it work"! As he did his various techniques I would explain exactly what he was doing in EPAK terminology and could easily describe the technique and it's application. He told me at the time "Joe, you are the first person that has been able to explain what I do and how I do it!"

Since that time I've been a "twin son of a different mother" to George and helped him out in regards to the ACKKS as a style and organization. I've been asked to detail out techniques and for my opinion and viewpoint on various aspects over the years. It was on my recommendation that Mr. Elmer changed his patch so as to reflect his unique system and elements of the emblem are there throughout the design. The ACKKS crest was designed by Kristi Gualco & myself several years ago. I did this because I knew that the EPAK community would question Mr. Elmer on his art and format. I also mentioned to him that he should alter the sysmbol of HIS tenth in HIS art so as to differenciate himself from the EPAK format of rank, but to make it obvious that it indeed is from that influence and indirectly from that lineage.(as chuck sullivan of the IKCA did] As of that date he has not taken my advice and that is his perogative. American -Chinese Kenpo Karate is its own unique entity in the kenpo world and George Elmer is it's founder and creator. He has created techniques,terminology,sets and forms that are uniquely his creation. He acknowledges his foundation and gives credit to those sources. He has chosen to leave distinct footprint in the kenpo sand & realizes that there are those out there who would rather kick sand at him. ACKKS is a "work in progress" and as such will grow and evolve into it's own. It never ceases to amaze me how people are so free to state who should or shouldn't be a "founder". The basic premise of being a founder is to have "found" their own innovation and be proud enough of their accomplishment and claim it as such. Many times I personally have seen martial artists come up with their unique innovations or different slants on a given art, but give all the credit to someone else whose name is "more respected" or "well known" rather than accept the recognition for their own accomplishment. That is truly sad and it does a disservice to the creator of the idea. George Elmer has the "intestinal and testicular fortitude" to claim ACKKS as his own. 
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
ACKKS Technical advisor


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## KENPOJOE (Apr 15, 2005)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Big gut, lotsa patches, double red bars, slappy strikes...looks like me, except I don't have patches or double red bars.


Hi Folks!
Alan, you think he wears alot of patches? HA! I am EMBLEM MAN! George is merely patch boy, my not so youthful sidekick! LOL!!!!!!!!
As far as a big bellies go, George is not all that fat in comparison to several individuals including myself, although, I do remember years ago when some low life scumbag created a "KENPOGUT" webpage that had Dennis conatser,George and myself pictured! I would still like to meet this individual to insure he had a lump in his throat that he used to go to the bathroom with!!! As far as the "slappy strikes", I've been hit by george and he can hit with the best and those are more like "Thunderclaps". As far as donning the double bars, that ws his personal decision, not mine.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## michaeledward (Apr 15, 2005)

As an enjoyable aside ... I would like to refer my friends to Todd Weeks ... no doubt an upcoming Grand Poh-bah of all things Martial Arts ... 

If you are familiar with ifilm ... ( www.ifilm.com ) ... go exploring to Viral Videos ... Todd Weeks .... Karate Man ..

It's a clever video.


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## mj-hi-yah (Apr 15, 2005)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> As an enjoyable aside ... I would like to refer my friends to Todd Weeks ... no doubt an upcoming Grand Poh-bah of all things Martial Arts ...
> 
> If you are familiar with ifilm ... ( www.ifilm.com ) ... go exploring to Viral Videos ... Todd Weeks .... Karate Man ..
> 
> It's a clever video.


That was um _different_ in an artistic sort of way, but what of the poor kitty cats?


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## KENPOJOE (Apr 15, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Now, keeping in mind my own background had some skeletons in the closet...
> 
> It's all about the red bars. Too many guys in kenpo walking around wearing the same rank Parker wore in his last days with us. Only a handful of men have the background to wear them...years of close training and relationship with the founder of American Kenpo. Even among the closest disciples, there are some who won't approach wearing a 10th. Like Clyde said once...if you're doing your own thing, wear your own thing. Wearing the Parker kenpo indicators places your self with Parker. Far cry.
> 
> ...



Hi Folks!
Dear Dave,
In regards to the "double bar" issue, if you research EPAK history, you'll find that the whole "bar" aspect was a fairly recent innovation that was initially a black belt thesis recomendation! I believe it was Tom Riskas, not Tom Kelly, who recommended the use of the bar as opposed to the 5 individual stripes and also recomended the use of the "titles" for each rank [junior instructor,etc...] and  Mr Parker started wearing it at late 8th,early 9th degree, as well as impliment it in writing in the infinite insights series [circa 1980]. George Elmer is doing doing as clyde and others mention and "doing their own thing" with techniques,patches,etc...
I do not know if you knew Mr. Parker personally, but those who did and continue to teach his system or a slight variant because of their preferences are worthy to wear the tenth and history will applaud them or condemn them for that act. I remember when the IKKA officially recided to "retire" the tenth degree black belt and the title of "senior grandmaster of the martial arts" [a title Mr. Parker never used during his life], now, a decade and a half after Mr. Parker's death, there are several people that now wear the tenth and rightfully so! Those who know "who's who in the zoo" easily can tell you who they are, as well as those who are considered the "what the ..." folks. 
As far as I know, George makes no delusions about trying to be "the next ed parker", he's just working on being himself. 
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 15, 2005)

back onto the subject of this video........on this guys website he states that he is a "nidan" in american kenpo under bruce corrigan. 
what happened here?


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## Doc (Apr 15, 2005)

KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> Hi Folks!
> I saw this thread go from Red Dragon Martial arts in New Jersey to Santa Clara and now to George Elmer...Since I know Mr. Elmer I felt I should write regarding him and my experiences with him.
> I first saw Mr. Elmer on the "sportchannel" or "ESPN" network demonstrating a double stick form at Dominic Gacobee's Taj Mahal Tournament. I remembers the swift dynamic,explosive movements and placed a "mental bookmark" to try to find out who this person was at another date. Later, I would attend the New England UKS kenpo camp in Springfield,Massachusetts,sponsored by Mr. Steve Swereki [sp] featuring Bryan Hawkins,Tommy Burke,Howard Silva,Steven Sears as well as many others. This was the first time that I met george elmer. If you knew me at that time, you knew about my "perm" days [why I would opt to have pseudo "pubic hair" on my head I'll never know!  :rofl: ] But,anyways, I watched george as he demonstrated his version of the techniques of ACKKS, Again, I saw him move with explosiveness and power and couldn't help but think for a brief moment "He moves like Mr. Parker..." He had formulated his own techniques based on his primary training in the Tracy and Parker systems, with his own unique slant on the actions with his own unique terminology. Simply stated, the man could do Kenpo and do it well and "make it work"! As he did his various techniques I would explain exactly what he was doing in EPAK terminology and could easily describe the technique and it's application. He told me at the time "Joe, you are the first person that has been able to explain what I do and how I do it!"
> 
> ...



Well, considering you posted your lengthy endorsement under my quote for reasons unknown; for the record, I stand by my comment and what I meant it to be and further, I tend to formulate my own opinion about people in the arts exclusive of what you think and Mr. Elmer knows that and he also knows what I meant. I also stand by my comment that Tom Kelly envisioned and talked Mr. Parker into the 5th degree bar. Also for the record, no, you were not of some service.


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## KENPOJOE (Apr 15, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Well, considering you posted your lengthy endorsement under my quote for reasons unknown; for the record, I stand by my comment and what I meant it to be and further, I tend to formulate my own opinion about people in the arts exclusive of what you think and Mr. Elmer knows that and he also knows what I meant. I also stand by my comment that Tom Kelly envisioned and talked Mr. Parker into the 5th degree bar. Also for the record, no, you were not of some service.



Dear Doc,
I posted the general reply regarding the thread only because you posted the link to Mr. Elmer's video and It's difficult to post every response on this thread in one post by quoting all the replies. If you take that as a personal affront it was not intended as one. I've read your posts and stand by the right that you are a wealth of information and a credit to the futher development of EPAK as a whole. You're certainly entitled to your opinion and agree with your right to do so, just as it is my right to have my opinions as well. But it is our "privilage" to be able to post on this board and I will always appreciate that privilage. As far as my not being of some service, well, that's your opinion.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 15, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Yeah right. You sneak into California, and sneak out, and won't even answer your dam phone. That "sucks."


Hey!  I apologized for that a while back! :asian:  LOL .. :idunno: give me a break!


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## MJS (Apr 16, 2005)

Lets try to return to the topic of the thread..Kenpo technique video clips.  We can start a seperate thread for the discussion of rank in American Kenpo.

Thanks,

Mike


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## dogboy (Apr 16, 2005)

I personally know Bruce Corrigan, and I remember this guy when he visited Bruce in Virginia around 1994 or so.  He joined an association that Bruce headed up - and was issued a certificate of recognition in American Kenpo because that is what the guy claimed he was a Black Belt in.  Bruce doesn't even teach American Kenpo.  SHortly thereafter, Bruce stopped association with the organization because he saw what was happening with people like this.  All you have to do is read the website, and you will see this guy is a collector who probably has never trained consistently with one single person for more than a few months.  The rest of his stuff looks as bad as the Kenpo.


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## The Kai (Apr 16, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> todd, i think you're missing the point. any sound principle is applicable to any art. you seem to want things in a tidy little package. in an earlier post you mentioned kicking......do people not kick in kempo?
> i realize that the purpose of the techniques is to have a tidy package of technical movements, but their purpose is designed to teach the underlying principles, which should be applicable to any movement, whether you're studying judo, kempo, karate etc.


While the underlying principles are the same, say the Fitting motion, it is done differently and for different reason between arts like Judo and Karate.   So in a sense your are not transcending style but defining style


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## Doc (Apr 16, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> While the underlying principles are the same, say the Fitting motion, it is done differently and for different reason between arts like Judo and Karate.   So in a sense your are not transcending style but defining style


If I may sir - I agree with you with the exception that I might say, "In a sense you are not transcending ARTS, but defining style." What do you think?


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## Bill Lear (Apr 16, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> "if i was in a boat and i fell overboard and i only just learned how to swim, and a couple you guys were there would some one jump in and save me / help me??"


That would depend on...

A. Do I have something to pull you out of the water with? 

B. Do I know how to swim? :uhohh:

C. Are there sharks in the water? :anic:  

D. Do I like you enough to wanna risk my life saving you? :idunno:


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 16, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> If I may sir - I agree with you with the exception that I might say, "In a sense you are not transcending ARTS, but defining style." What do you think?


doc, the reason i stated that the principles transcend style is simply because any sound principle should be applicable to any style. 
i guess maybe i have a much simpler outlook than others, because to me walking is walking.
i think the movements define the style. but no matter how hard you try, you cant change physics.


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## Doc (Apr 17, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> doc, the reason i stated that the principles transcend style is simply because any sound principle should be applicable to any style.
> i guess maybe i have a much simpler outlook than others, because to me walking is walking.
> i think the movements define the style. but no matter how hard you try, you cant change physics.


Agreed. My problem is most give lip service to the thngs you speak of, but have no idea in reality how to achieve same.


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 17, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Agreed. My problem is most give lip service to the thngs you speak of, but have no idea in reality how to achieve same.


i totally agree with you there


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## The Kai (Apr 17, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> If I may sir - I agree with you with the exception that I might say, "In a sense you are not transcending ARTS, but defining style." What do you think?


If you are using the same definitions that SGM Parker did for those terms


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## The Kai (Apr 17, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> doc, the reason i stated that the principles transcend style is simply because any sound principle should be applicable to any style.
> i guess maybe i have a much simpler outlook than others, because to me walking is walking.
> i think the movements define the style. but no matter how hard you try, you cant change physics.


Deferent applications is what define the style.  If you say you can't change physics that is true however, how apply those physiscs defines the appliction.

The idea that by practing karate you are also becoming a expert at Judo is a little far fetched!


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 17, 2005)

but to say that karate guys never throw, or that judo guys never strike is even more far fetched


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## The Kai (Apr 18, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> but to say that karate guys never throw, or that judo guys never strike is even more far fetched


But the hows, where's and when will be differnent.  Which is what I stated earlier.  Of course a Karate Man will throw but it will be done in "context and character";  of course the more general the principle you are talking the easier it will be to apply to generally


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## rattlerbrat (Apr 24, 2005)

> First off, SC Kenpo are doing a KENPO demo in a HIGHLY COMPETITIVE Geography and they show the most basic and unimpressive movement possible... Do you think they will attract anybody who is shopping around via the internet?


 Yes, because heaven knows that the first thing you should look for in a school is impressive-looking, flashy kicks.


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