# if you could change a thing or things.....



## Manny (Jun 5, 2018)

Right now if you could change a thing or a number of things on TKD what would you change?

Manny


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## skribs (Jun 5, 2018)

I have a few questions first:

What style or lineage of Taekwondo?
Are we talking generic (i.e. ALL Kukkiwon schools or ALL ATA schools) or specific to our school?
Personally, for me, it would be more training on the applications of the forms.  At our school, we do forms, sparring, and self defense.  There are several techniques in the various forms that we haven't drilled on an actual person.  For example, the forms include spearhand techniques, augmented blocks, double blocks (such as a scissor block or a low block in one direction and high block in another), which don't really show up in our practical application.

What I would like is to know is what the application is of these techniques, or barring that, at least why they're included.  Regarding spearhand, if we're going to use it in the forms, why are we not conditioning or drilling to use it on a target?

This is something I do want to ask my Master, but I haven't really found a good time yet.


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## pdg (Jun 5, 2018)

skribs said:


> Regarding spearhand, if we're going to use it in the forms, why are we not conditioning or drilling to use it on a target?



Specifically on this technique...

We don't drill it 'for safety reasons' - apparently it takes the majority of people too long to learn how to apply it without hurting themselves more than the target.

That said, there are two BBs and me who do practice it against pads and rebreakable boards, so there is some leeway for us...


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## Buka (Jun 5, 2018)

Hand strikes to the face target.


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## pdg (Jun 5, 2018)

Buka said:


> Hand strikes to the face target.



Elaborate?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 5, 2018)

How to catch a kicking leg.

It makes no sense that if you train how to kick but you don't train how to catch a kicking keg.


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## JR 137 (Jun 5, 2018)

pdg said:


> Elaborate?


I’m pretty sure he means there’s an overall lack of head/face punching in TKD.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 5, 2018)

skribs said:


> Personally, for me, it would be more training on the applications of the forms.  At our school, we do forms, sparring, and self defense.  There are several techniques in the various forms that we haven't drilled on an actual person.  For example, the forms include spearhand techniques, augmented blocks, double blocks (such as a scissor block or a low block in one direction and high block in another), which don't really show up in our practical application.



So... why haven't you come up with applications yourself? Seriously. If the only applications you know are the ones you're spoon fed by your instructor, you're missing out on more than you're learning. Teaching a specific application of a movement is just a tool to try to get you to understand the principles behind it. Nothing more.



> What I would like is to know is what the application is of these techniques, or barring that, at least why they're included.  Regarding spearhand, if we're going to use it in the forms, why are we not conditioning or drilling to use it on a target?



Because it takes more time and conditioning to do safely than most people will commit. The conditioning is fairly painful, and carries a significant risk of broken fingers. So people don't do it right. And then they end up with broken fingers. If you want to condition for spearhand strikes, great. Do so. But for most people, the risk/benefit ratio just doesn't add up. I did it when I was much younger, and like anything else it's easier to maintain than develop. But if I were starting over, I don't think I'd do it.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 5, 2018)

Manny said:


> Right now if you could change a thing or a number of things on TKD what would you change?



I wouldn't change anything about TKD.
There are certainly things I'd like to see changed in things like the Olympic sparring rules, though.


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## skribs (Jun 5, 2018)

pdg said:


> Specifically on this technique...
> 
> We don't drill it 'for safety reasons' - apparently it takes the majority of people too long to learn how to apply it without hurting themselves more than the target.
> 
> That said, there are two BBs and me who do practice it against pads and rebreakable boards, so there is some leeway for us...



If we're not going to do anything to train for it outside of forms, then why is it in the forms?  This is my question.



Buka said:


> Hand strikes to the face target.



I assume you mean in WTF sparring rules?  We teach several head punches in our basic curriculum and just ban them in the sparring.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> How to catch a kicking leg.
> 
> It makes no sense that if you train how to kick but you don't train how to catch a kicking keg.



We cover this at my school in our defense portion.  But like head punches, they are banned in sparring (because Olympic rules).



Dirty Dog said:


> So... why haven't you come up with applications yourself? Seriously. If the only applications you know are the ones you're spoon fed by your instructor, you're missing out on more than you're learning. Teaching a specific application of a movement is just a tool to try to get you to understand the principles behind it. Nothing more.



So first I must understand the principles behind it.  

As an example, we practice front fall and back fall at our school.  The back fall position is essentially on your back, chin tucked in, hands down on the ground, feet straight in the air.  When asked why we practice this, one girl explained "it's because our feet are stronger than our head, so if someone punches at our head, we get our head out of the way and we get our feet in the way so they punch our feet instead of our head."

This is what happens when you have someone trying to understand the application of a technique with no understanding of the initial application.

I'd rather have the Master's answer first and then apply my own possible twists and ideas.

Some of this has been the cycle I get myself into A LOT which goes something like this:

STEP 1:  Have a question, but don't have a chance to ask it or too embarrassed to ask it
STEP 2:  It's been too long and I should know it by now, so if I ask then not only is it embarrassing I didn't know, it's embarrassing I didn't ask before.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 5, 2018)

skribs said:


> If we're not going to do anything to train for it outside of forms, then why is it in the forms?  This is my question.



1 -Cultural inertia. They're in the forms because they've always been in the forms.
2 - Some people (if only a few) will choose to do the necessary conditioning for these techniques.
3 - A spearhand strike requires a lot of risky conditioning. But a spearhand is only a strike sometimes. Go think of some other ways it could be used. Let's start with just two. Tell us what you come up with.



> So first I must understand the principles behind it.



Nope. Finding applications (beyond the obvious) is one of the ways you learn to understand the principles.



> As an example, we practice front fall and back fall at our school.  The back fall position is essentially on your back, chin tucked in, hands down on the ground, feet straight in the air.  When asked why we practice this, one girl explained "it's because our feet are stronger than our head, so if someone punches at our head, we get our head out of the way and we get our feet in the way so they punch our feet instead of our head."



She's ahead of you, because she's at least _*trying*_ to understand, rather than have everything spoon fed to her. And I'd always rather work with someone who is thinking. 
I'd tell her "ok, let's try that" and then when it doesn't work (obviously) I'll ask her to think of another reason why being able to fall is good.
I'll also add that I wouldn't teach a back fall the way you describe. If you're falling backwards, it would be much, much smarter to continue the movement so you roll backwards and come back to your feet. Because ending in the position you describe is a good way of saying "go ahead, kill me." I'm also willing to bet that it's a lot easier to understand why you'd roll back to your feet when you're knocked down than why you'd be doing some funky headstand thing. I say that because I have never, not even once, had a student who didn't intuitively understand that not getting hurt when you fall, and getting back to your feet quickly in a fight, are both Good Things.


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## skribs (Jun 5, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> 3 - A spearhand strike requires a lot of risky conditioning. But a spearhand is only a strike sometimes. Go think of some other ways it could be used. Let's start with just two. Tell us what you come up with.



I assume you mean the motion of sticking your arm straight out with your fingertips being used for something other than striking with your fingertips?

I can think of several grappling applications that can apply strikes, such as a leg sweep using the motion of an elbow strike or ridge-hand, or a palm strike to trap the attacker's fingers, but I'm completely blanking out on how a spearhand can otherwise be used.



Dirty Dog said:


> Nope. Finding applications (beyond the obvious) is one of the ways you learn to understand the principles.



I'm saying I must at least have an application in mind as a starting point.  For example, an augmented block (what I mean by that is an outside block with one arm, and the other arm supporting the elbow).  What is the application of that?  I have a basis to start with the spearhand, but I don't even know what the purpose of augmenting the outside block is.

With no basis to start from, to me it's just an abstract motion I learn as part of the form.



Dirty Dog said:


> She's ahead of you, because she's at least _*trying*_ to understand, rather than have everything spoon fed to her. And I'd always rather work with someone who is thinking.
> I'd tell her "ok, let's try that" and then when it doesn't work (obviously) I'll ask her to think of another reason why being able to fall is good.



Well, on the one hand, how do you know I haven't been trying to understand?

On the other hand, why is it not valuable to learn from my master?  If I should just figure everything out for myself, I might as well stop training under a Master and just watch Bruce Lee movies and figure out how he did all his stuff.

As to the last bit, if someone is trying to figure out the application of the fall (i.e. what purpose might a fall serve in a fight) they might be down a different track of mind than what the question is (why it's important to know how to fall safely if you happen to fall).


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## andyjeffries (Jun 6, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How to catch a kicking leg.
> 
> It makes no sense that if you train how to kick but you don't train how to catch a kicking keg.



I completely disagree with this! If you train your kicks _perfectly_ they're too powerful/quick to be caught. So the proper defence to a proper kick isn't to catch it but to evade/cover it. I've trained with some elite-level Koreans and there's no way on earth I'd ever want to try to catch one of their kicks!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 6, 2018)

andyjeffries said:


> I completely disagree with this! If you train your kicks _perfectly_ they're too powerful/quick to be caught. So the proper defence to a proper kick isn't to catch it but to evade/cover it. I've trained with some elite-level Koreans and there's no way on earth I'd ever want to try to catch one of their kicks!


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## pdg (Jun 6, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I’m pretty sure he means there’s an overall lack of head/face punching in TKD.



If you count "overall" as WT rules, then yes.

But we train them, and use them in sparring.

A head/face punch scores, a jumping punch scores higher.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> I assume you mean the motion of sticking your arm straight out with your fingertips being used for something other than striking with your fingertips?
> 
> I can think of several grappling applications that can apply strikes, such as a leg sweep using the motion of an elbow strike or ridge-hand, or a palm strike to trap the attacker's fingers, but I'm completely blanking out on how a spearhand can otherwise be used.



Let’s start with one then. A simple one. How can you use this motion as a release?




> I'm saying I must at least have an application in mind as a starting point.  For example, an augmented block (what I mean by that is an outside block with one arm, and the other arm supporting the elbow).  What is the application of that?  I have a basis to start with the spearhand, but I don't even know what the purpose of augmenting the outside block is.
> 
> With no basis to start from, to me it's just an abstract motion I learn as part of the form.



Well, I’ll admit I never teach anything in a vacuum, so there’s always at least one obvious application. But can you truly not think of one reason why you’d bring the supporting arm forward while blocking with the other?



> Well, on the one hand, how do you know I haven't been trying to understand?



I don’t. But she’s come up with more ideas than you, apparently.



> On the other hand, why is it not valuable to learn from my master?  If I should just figure everything out for myself, I might as well stop training under a Master and just watch Bruce Lee movies and figure out how he did all his stuff.



Like any teacher, our job is to teach you to learn. To figure out ways to use movements in this case. But that requires you to come up ideas on your own. If all you do is parrot applications that you’ve been told about, you’re essentially crippled. If the attack isn’t EXACTLY as described, you’re helpless.



> As to the last bit, if someone is trying to figure out the application of the fall (i.e. what purpose might a fall serve in a fight) they might be down a different track of mind than what the question is (why it's important to know how to fall safely if you happen to fall).



Ok. So what purpose might a fall serve? I can think of a couple without any effort. And for one of them (rolling out of range) this young lady is on the right track. She’s just being hampered (in my opinion) by the silly way you’re being taught to back fall.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 6, 2018)

andyjeffries said:


> I completely disagree with this! If you train your kicks _perfectly_ they're too powerful/quick to be caught. So the proper defence to a proper kick isn't to catch it but to evade/cover it. I've trained with some elite-level Koreans and there's no way on earth I'd ever want to try to catch one of their kicks!



Sorry, but that's just silly. The vast majority (by far) of people who throw a kick at you are not going to be elite-level (nationality is irrelevant) and even the best in the world are not perfect. Especially since training to catch a kick does *not* necessarily mean letting that kick hit you. Nor does it mean you can/will catch every kick a given person throws. I honestly believe I can catch a kick from anyone. Admittedly, the better you are, the lower my chances are of catching a given kick, but since training to catch a kick includes covering/evading/blocking/redirecting the kicks I fail to catch, I'll get my chance. Eventually. As long as I can cover/evade/block/redirect effectively, as well as catch effectively.


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 6, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Seriously. If the only applications you know are the ones you're spoon fed by your instructor, you're missing out on more than you're learning. Teaching a specific application of a movement is just a tool to try to get you to understand the principles behind it. Nothing more.
> 
> .



While I agree that the "Textbook" application(s) is but a tool to help you understand there is a good reason for learning only that application, especially at lower ranks. The reason is finite resources.   Time, energy, ability to assimilate information.     Many students train 3-4 hours a week.   The rank syllabus contains a certain volume of information that needs to be learned and performed with competence.     Learning and teaching numerous applications for pattern moves expands the volume of material tremendously.


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 6, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> .....
> I'll also add that I wouldn't teach a back fall the way you describe. If you're falling backwards, it would be much, much smarter to continue the movement so you roll backwards and come back to your feet..



Rolling breakfalls where you continue the roll and come back to your feet are great to learn. But you need to learn the "Landing" breakfall as well. The reason why is simple .  If you are "Thrown" or taken down in a method like an outer reaping throw or double leg  takedown there is little chance you would be able to continue the roll.


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## _Simon_ (Jun 6, 2018)

I would totally change the name to Dokwontae!


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> If we're not going to do anything to train for it outside of forms, then why is it in the forms?  This is my question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Could a spear hand be a little more difficult to block if it reaches a little further than a fist, even if not with as much power?  Could it be used against pressure points?  Work with that a while.

Break falls are first of all to get one to the ground as safely as possible.  Generally they try to spread out the contact with the ground over several points of the body, to lessen one part of the body taking all the force.  That is taught in parachute jumping in the military, or at least was, and I don't see how it could be different, except in special units who have parachutes different from mass jumping paratroops.  You didn't mention getting one foot back (rare), or your buttocks.  You didn't mention slapping the ground with your hands to absorb some of the momentum.  Were you just leaving them out for brevity or do you do them exactly how you described them?  Do you have a different explanation for sticking your feet and legs up in the air?  

If you can translate yourself into a standing position from any break fall, so much the better, and if that isn't taught, you should explore it on your own.  But remember you first have to land uninjured to be able to continue defending yourself.

I don't know your instructor.  But the instructors who taught me, and my GM, always answered my questions, and if they saw me be doing something wrong, whether I asked or not, corrected me.  You should always have a chance to ask questions.  I would think the nature of Hapkido instruction should make that very easy.  But if not, during a break or after class.  Never be embarrassed to ask!  Have you ever heard the old saw that the only dumb question is the one that isn't asked?  I hope the impediment to your learning is your own ego for the embarrassment, not your teacher's way of responding.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 6, 2018)

andyjeffries said:


> I completely disagree with this! If you train your kicks _perfectly_ they're too powerful/quick to be caught. So the proper defence to a proper kick isn't to catch it but to evade/cover it. I've trained with some elite-level Koreans and there's no way on earth I'd ever want to try to catch one of their kicks!



Maybe a definition of catching is in order.  You have provided 1/2 of the answer as I understand it. Even if you aren't an elite level kicker, I would not normally like to stand there and try to catch your kick as in my cupped hand.  But I can step back or to the side and grab your ankle dislocate the ankle, knee or hip, or all three.  Or I can lift your leg up too high for you to stay on your feet.  My best bet is to make contact just as you end you kick, so your power is of less value to you.  And as I always say in Hapkido, speed and accuracy are paramount since we so often move into an attack.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 6, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


>



I enjoyed those videos.  Always nice to have new tools in the tool box.  I wonder if a couple of those take down defenses might not be legal in his wrestling?  I will check.

Thanks.


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## skribs (Jun 6, 2018)

andyjeffries said:


> I completely disagree with this! If you train your kicks _perfectly_ they're too powerful/quick to be caught. So the proper defence to a proper kick isn't to catch it but to evade/cover it. I've trained with some elite-level Koreans and there's no way on earth I'd ever want to try to catch one of their kicks!



The kick is very powerful at the foot and shin.  The kick is not very powerful at the hip and thigh.  If you attack the foot you're in for a bad time.  If you attack the thigh you can easily control your opponent.



Dirty Dog said:


> Let’s start with one then. A simple one. How can you use this motion as a release?



Are you talking about a release from a grab?  If so, almost every release I have looks more like a crossing elbow strike or outside block than a spearhand.



Dirty Dog said:


> Well, I’ll admit I never teach anything in a vacuum, so there’s always at least one obvious application. But can you truly not think of one reason why you’d bring the supporting arm forward while blocking with the other?



I can think of reasons to bring the other arm forward, but not in that exact motion or position.



Dirty Dog said:


> I don’t. But she’s come up with more ideas than you, apparently.



I think you're missing the additional step that I am doing, which is to _*reject those ideas which do not make sense*_.  For example, in your question about spearhands, here have been my thoughts:

To make an impact to the shoulder/chest with my forearm while I perform a sweep with that leg.  But if I'm doing that, the motion I use would more likely be a ridgehand, so I rule that out
To escape a wrist grab.  But as I mentioned above, the motion for that is more similar to other techniques
To trap a hand for the purpose of a wrist lock.  But those motions are more similar to a palm block or palm strike than a spearhand
To reach past an opponent to hook their arms or neck.  But that motion would end up being more like a hook punch, chop, or ridgehand strike than a spearhand strike
To poke into the throat, groin, solar plexus, or to find a pressure point, but that doesn't meet your qualifications of "not a strike" for this exercise
To tickle my nephew, but that also doesn't seem applicable to this exercise

So I've thought of several ideas, but I've rejected them as the motion, even though it contains an open hand, is not a spearhand.  



Dirty Dog said:


> Like any teacher, our job is to teach you to learn. To figure out ways to use movements in this case. But that requires you to come up ideas on your own. If all you do is parrot applications that you’ve been told about, you’re essentially crippled. If the attack isn’t EXACTLY as described, you’re helpless.



And I've done that with a lot of our techniques.  I've come up with plenty of ways to use kicks in new combinations.  I'm pretty sure I invented a new kick because I've searched for it online to find ways to improve it and haven't seen anyone else perform it (540 back kick).  I've done plenty of things in sparring that weren't directly taught to me.  The 540 back kick is one - I came up with it as someone was backing away from me so I jumped and spun around to bring me closer to them for my kick.  Using a front roll to escape an armbar in hapkido class was another.

But I can't do this for all of the techniques in the kata.  I've tried, but some I just can't figure out the practical application.

There's three other points I'd like to bring to this particular quote:

I am not talking about only parroting applications.  I am talking about at least being trained on the applications. 
Even if I come up with my own ideas, I would like to know the original intent of the technique.  This kind of goes into the discussions in general about "hidden" techniques in forms, which were really just because the student didn't have the time to learn all the applications of the kata, so they made up their own.
Sometimes instruction IS the way to learn, at least as a starting point.



Dirty Dog said:


> Ok. So what purpose might a fall serve? I can think of a couple without any effort. And for one of them (rolling out of range) this young lady is on the right track. She’s just being hampered (in my opinion) by the silly way you’re being taught to back fall.



Maybe you can think of some practical applications for that fall as opposed to a roll.

I've got a few in mind.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 6, 2018)

Earl Weiss said:


> While I agree that the "Textbook" application(s) is but a tool to help you understand there is a good reason for learning only that application, especially at lower ranks. The reason is finite resources.   Time, energy, ability to assimilate information.     Many students train 3-4 hours a week.   The rank syllabus contains a certain volume of information that needs to be learned and performed with competence.     Learning and teaching numerous applications for pattern moves expands the volume of material tremendously.



Sure, but again, I'm not advocating teaching 20,000 applications. I'm advocating teaching people to figure out how to apply the concept. Nor am I talking about having a student demonstrate 4700 applications of a technique in their testing.


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## andyjeffries (Jun 7, 2018)

skribs said:


> The kick is very powerful at the foot and shin.  The kick is not very powerful at the hip and thigh.  If you attack the foot you're in for a bad time.  If you attack the thigh you can easily control your opponent.



But I don't get how you'd get there. Modern WT sparring has very defensive chambers (where the knee blocks forward access), the footwork is very fluid and we train to be able to still kick from pushing distance (which is likely the distance you're talking about). Plus I can't imagine trying to kick from close range as a default (outside of sport contexts), only if starting from range - and I think a fighter will have a hard job coming in close on a correct kick.

However, when I got to Korea in a month, we're having a seminar with a self defence expert and one of the parts he's prepared for us is "kick defence", so we'll see what he teaches then.


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 7, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure, but again, I'm not advocating teaching 20,000 applications. I'm advocating teaching people to figure out how to apply the concept. Nor am I talking about having a student demonstrate 4700 applications of a technique in their testing.


Nor am I . Lower rank  students have plenty to absorb by learning the textbook application(s) , how that helps them understand the beginning position (Chamber) The ending position, and how the technique travels to get there, the angle, distance, height  of the opponent / target  for the attack or defense, plus of course proficiency  and everything else in the syllabus for that rank.  Of course all those things will help with other applications, but that is mostly addressed later.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 7, 2018)

andyjeffries said:


> But I don't get how you'd get there. Modern WT sparring has very defensive chambers (where the knee blocks forward access), the footwork is very fluid and we train to be able to still kick from pushing distance (which is likely the distance you're talking about). Plus I can't imagine trying to kick from close range as a default (outside of sport contexts), only if starting from range - and I think a fighter will have a hard job coming in close on a correct kick.
> 
> However, when I got to Korea in a month, we're having a seminar with a self defence expert and one of the parts he's prepared for us is "kick defence", so we'll see what he teaches then.



I think every martial art wants to think it has outfoxed all others.  And sometimes perhaps that may be so.  But people from other arts can observe and learn just as you can.  Also, it sounds like @Dirty Dog tries to counter that with his encouragement to think of different applications of moves in forms.  I like that idea.

In the Hapkido I studied we learned many techniques; some are specific to kicks.  I have been trying to imagine how a bent knee at the beginning of a kick would affect our defenses.  I don't think it would since I think any good kick, if it is to have power and speed would have to camber the kick using both hip and knee.  An opponent's speed might if they are sufficiently faster than I am.  But faster speed might not if I have gotten to where the kick can't possibly touch me before the speed gets it to where I was.  Interesting to think about no matter.

What is the art of the defence expert whose seminar you are going to?  I would first guess TKD since that is your art?


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## andyjeffries (Jun 7, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I think every martial art wants to think it has outfoxed all others.



Don't get me wrong, I *definitely* don't think that way. I think if we went for a head kick and someone covered well MMA style, then closed the distance and took us down - most Taekwondoin would be in real trouble. I just (currently) see catching a kick as a valid defence. We've had broken hands in our class when people try to block a (non-full contact) kick instead of keeping the fist tightly closed and cover the target - so I struggle to see how intentionally keeping them open to catch lower limbs will help at all.

But I'm always open to learning.



oftheherd1 said:


> In the Hapkido I studied we learned many techniques; some are specific to kicks.  I have been trying to imagine how a bent knee at the beginning of a kick would affect our defenses.  I don't think it would since I think any good kick, if it is to have power and speed would have to camber the kick using both hip and knee.  An opponent's speed might if they are sufficiently faster than I am.  But faster speed might not if I have gotten to where the kick can't possibly touch me before the speed gets it to where I was.  Interesting to think about no matter.
> 
> What is the art of the defence expert whose seminar you are going to?  I would first guess TKD since that is your art?



It's Taekwondo, but I think from having seen him in the past, he's also done both Hapkido and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. It's GM Deuk Moo Hur, of the International Police Martial Arts Federation in Korea - he's also one of a few gentleman defining the Kukkiwon's new self-defence/step sparring syllabus (that was shown in 2016 on the Kukkiwon Master Course and then subsequently at other courses).

It's a private seminar just for me and my students. I'll post back after the seminar to let you know what he advocates and how I feel about it.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 7, 2018)

andyjeffries said:


> Don't get me wrong, I *definitely* don't think that way. I think if we went for a head kick and someone covered well MMA style, then closed the distance and took us down - most Taekwondoin would be in real trouble. I just (currently) see catching a kick as a valid defence. We've had broken hands in our class when people try to block a (non-full contact) kick instead of keeping the fist tightly closed and cover the target - so I struggle to see how intentionally keeping them open to catch lower limbs will help at all.
> 
> But I'm always open to learning.



When I studied TKD I once tried to block a kick that was coming so fast I didn't have time to close my hand.  So I was really interested in why anyone would want to do that.  Then I began studying Hapkido, and realized, it's called grappling.  

As I mentioned, you aren't using a spear hand to try and block a kick, or even hand strike, head on with full force of your hand against the full force of the opponent's kick.  You block, side step, or in some way not be where the kick or strike is going to be.  Then you strike some part of his hand/leg, or grab it.  I think I mentioned that I did learn one strike close to what you are talking about.  It was a step back to be out of range, then a reverse knuckle strike to the pressure point just above the ankle.  But usually we would strike some other part of the leg or body.



andyjeffries said:


> It's Taekwondo, but I think from having seen him in the past, he's also done both Hapkido and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. It's GM Deuk Moo Hur, of the International Police Martial Arts Federation in Korea - he's also one of a few gentleman defining the Kukkiwon's new self-defence/step sparring syllabus (that was shown in 2016 on the Kukkiwon Master Course and then subsequently at other courses).
> 
> It's a private seminar just for me and my students. I'll post back after the seminar to let you know what he advocates and how I feel about it.



Thanks for willingness to share.  I have a sneaking suspicion that I will recognize some Hapkido in what he will teach you, not all, but some.  It will be interesting to see.


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## wab25 (Jun 7, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'll also add that I wouldn't teach a back fall the way you describe. If you're falling backwards, it would be much, much smarter to continue the movement so you roll backwards and come back to your feet. Because ending in the position you describe is a good way of saying "go ahead, kill me." I'm also willing to bet that it's a lot easier to understand why you'd roll back to your feet when you're knocked down than why you'd be doing some funky headstand thing.


I agree that if you are falling backwards the back roll is probably the best way to deal with it, for the reasons you stated. However, there are some throws where you invert uke, with both his feet in the air, and drop him straight down to his rear. In some, uke is in free fall traveling straight down, upside down with his head at hip level... In other cases, ukes legs or hips are being caught and held up by tori. If you are thrown backwards, with some altitude, causing your feet to be higher than your head, a back roll is out and you need to learn how to land from that type of fall.


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## Buka (Jun 7, 2018)

On the subject of falling backwards - kicking your heels to your buttocks will stop backwards momentum, stopping the roll over effect. Good for covering if they want to jump on you and great if you need to draw a weapon.

If you've not played with it, especially after reading this..


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 7, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> 1 -Cultural inertia. They're in the forms because they've always been in the forms.
> 2 - Some people (if only a few) will choose to do the necessary conditioning for these techniques.
> 3 - A spearhand strike requires a lot of risky conditioning. But a spearhand is only a strike sometimes. Go think of some other ways it could be used. Let's start with just two. Tell us what you come up with.
> 
> ...


Different brains need different approaches. Some folks do very well working from form and figuring out on their own. If they get something wrong, they're okay with that and can easily learn a different approach. This girl has come up with something pretty off-the-wall, and if she had gotten there from my teaching, I'd have to wonder what I'd done wrong. Yes, she's thinking, but she doesn't seem to be following key principles in her thinking (which can be good or bad - depending where it leads her). Other brains do their best thinking by starting from a model. In this case, the form doesn't necessarily present a model for application, except as a spearhand strike (which you've already discussed).

Some of my best students have been people in that latter category. They needed a solid starting point, but then could come up with thoughts, questions, and applications I didn't expect of their level.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 7, 2018)

Buka said:


> On the subject of falling backwards - kicking your heels to your buttocks will stop backwards momentum, stopping the roll over effect. Good for covering if they want to jump on you and great if you need to draw a weapon.
> 
> If you've not played with it, especially after reading this..


I'm trying to picture that, and failing. Not sure I want to try to search for a video of feet and buttocks....


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## Buka (Jun 7, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm trying to picture that, and failing. Not sure I want to try to search for a video of feet and buttocks....



Picture it? If you have a floor handy...


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## wab25 (Jun 7, 2018)

Found an example of one of our throws where it may be hard to back roll out of. (hopefully the youtube link at a specific time works... if not *go to 7:10* and watch the next throw )






Extra credit if you recognize one of the two gentlemen doing that set of techniques... is is quite well known in the martial arts world.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 7, 2018)

wab25 said:


> Found an example of one of our throws where it may be hard to back roll out of.


If you hold on one of your opponent's legs (don't release that holding) and sweep/hook/break his other leg, he cannot do any rolling.


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## skribs (Jun 7, 2018)

Buka said:


> On the subject of falling backwards - kicking your heels to your buttocks will stop backwards momentum, stopping the roll over effect. Good for covering if they want to jump on you and great if you need to draw a weapon.
> 
> If you've not played with it, especially after reading this..



So, what I've come up with:
1.  If your opponent has hold of your arm, rolling through the take-down might be a good way to break free, or a good way to get your wrist, elbow, or shoulder dislocated.  In the later, being able to fall is a good thing.
2.  Some of our later techniques start with a fall, like a scissor sweep.
3.  Sometimes when you take someone down for a chokehold, you don't want to roll as you will give up your position.  
4.  Sometimes there isn't room to roll out.
5.  Sometimes the nature of the throw has downward momentum and there isn't momentum for a roll.

The main purpose of the fall is to learn how to backfall without hitting your head, and how to stop your momentum.  Even if you do roll, you still want to tuck your chin and keep the back of your skull from slamming into the ground.


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## Buka (Jun 7, 2018)

wab25 said:


> Found an example of one of our throws where it may be hard to back roll out of. (hopefully the youtube link at a specific time works... if not *go to 7:10* and watch the next throw )
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I miss him. One of the coolest guys ever in the Arts.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 7, 2018)

skribs said:


> keep the back of your skull from slamming into the ground.


In Chinese wrestling, one will use one of his arms as soft pillow to protect the back of his head. He will also uses the other arm to protect the head in case of his opponent drops elbow or knee onto his head.

Instead of using the arm to do the break fall, a Chinese wrestler likes to use leg to do the break fall.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 7, 2018)

wab25 said:


> Found an example of one of our throws where it may be hard to back roll out of. (hopefully the youtube link at a specific time works... if not *go to 7:10* and watch the next throw )
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey, what is the name you guys use for the technique used multiple times in the sequence right after that - pulling the arm straight down (sort of)  to throw? We have a similar one, and I've been trying to find some videos from other arts that have it for research.


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## wab25 (Jun 8, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Hey, what is the name you guys use for the technique used multiple times in the sequence right after that - pulling the arm straight down (sort of) to throw? We have a similar one, and I've been trying to find some videos from other arts that have it for research.


The technique immediately following the high back fall at 7:10 is actually called Sandan Gaeshi. It takes 3 different techniques from other parts of the Shinnin List and Oku list and puts them together, with uke and tori trading slots back and forth. (tori gets countered and becomes uke then counters and becomes tori again) I believe the art you are interested in is the arm whip throw in the middle. That art we call Gyakute Gaeshi, which is a series of 3 arm whip throws. This video shows both of those techniques a bit slower and better quality video. (no Wally Jay this time though  ) Gyakute Gaeshi occurs at 2:44, Sandan Gaeshi occurs at 11:14 (with Gyakute Gaeshi composing the middle segment).






If that is the art you are researching... I can look through some of the offline info I have about the DZR version, if you are interested. Hope that helps!


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## dvcochran (Jun 8, 2018)

Buka said:


> Hand strikes to the face target.



If a school purely follows the WTF TKD curriculum, it lessons the overall effectiveness as a self defense. If a WTF TKD school  augments the program to include other SD aspects I think they are much more effective. I do advocate TKD (in my experience)as far and away the best style for overall fitness and many of the mental aspects of training in MA. What would I change? More transparency in the promotion schools as TKD sport schools vs. traditional, well rounded schools. If that could somehow happen then the practical reintroduction of punching the face should happen.


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## pdg (Jun 8, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> If a school purely follows the WTF TKD curriculum, it lessons the overall effectiveness as a self defense. If a WTF TKD school  augments the program to include other SD aspects I think they are much more effective. I do advocate TKD (in my experience)as far and away the best style for overall fitness and many of the mental aspects of training in MA. What would I change? More transparency in the promotion schools as TKD sport schools vs. traditional, well rounded schools. If that could somehow happen then the practical reintroduction of punching the face should happen.



I didn't think the WTF (or more correctly these days WT) had a curriculum at all, what with being a sport governing body.

Isn't the curriculum the job of the KKW (for the schools who follow that path)?

Even then, there's more facets to TKD than just WT/KKW...


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> I didn't think the WTF (or more correctly these days WT) had a curriculum at all, what with being a sport governing body.
> 
> Isn't the curriculum the job of the KKW (for the schools who follow that path)?
> 
> Even then, there's more facets to TKD than just WT/KKW...



You are 100% correct. But plenty of people just don't get it.


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## skribs (Jun 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> I didn't think the WTF (or more correctly these days WT) had a curriculum at all, what with being a sport governing body.
> 
> Isn't the curriculum the job of the KKW (for the schools who follow that path)?
> 
> Even then, there's more facets to TKD than just WT/KKW...



From what I can tell, there is a very heavy link between KKW and WTF.  Most KKW schools will train for olympic-style sparring, and WTF-rules tournaments I go to typically use your KKW rank, if I'm not mistaken.  However, the base KKW curriculum doesn't cover much in regards to self defense, and the WTF rules are rules for a game, not rules for a fight.

So if a school uses only the KKW curriculum and the WTF sparring rules, then blows to the face are pretty much not covered.  A master supplementing the curriculum with more traditional TKD or another martial art can fill in the gaps.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 9, 2018)

wab25 said:


> The technique immediately following the high back fall at 7:10 is actually called Sandan Gaeshi. It takes 3 different techniques from other parts of the Shinnin List and Oku list and puts them together, with uke and tori trading slots back and forth. (tori gets countered and becomes uke then counters and becomes tori again) I believe the art you are interested in is the arm whip throw in the middle. That art we call Gyakute Gaeshi, which is a series of 3 arm whip throws. This video shows both of those techniques a bit slower and better quality video. (no Wally Jay this time though  ) Gyakute Gaeshi occurs at 2:44, Sandan Gaeshi occurs at 11:14 (with Gyakute Gaeshi composing the middle segment).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, that is the technique! I would very much appreciate any information you have on how that is taught in Danzan-ryu. I've been going through some of the NGA techniques and looking for similar techniques in other arts, to get a better understanding of their mechanics.


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## andyjeffries (Jun 11, 2018)

skribs said:


> However, the base KKW curriculum doesn't cover much in regards to self defense



Based on what?

I attended the Master Instructor Course at Kukkiwon in 2016 and there was a self-defence module on that course, that covered defence to punches in the face, weapons defence, grappling, etc. The Kukkiwon definitely officially has a very full self-defence curriculum. There as a 20 minute rough cut video they showed us (they don't want us sharing it, because they're producing a proper professional one and this was just in various dojangs showing the range of the syllabus).


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## skribs (Jun 11, 2018)

andyjeffries said:


> Based on what?
> 
> I attended the Master Instructor Course at Kukkiwon in 2016 and there was a self-defence module on that course, that covered defence to punches in the face, weapons defence, grappling, etc. The Kukkiwon definitely officially has a very full self-defence curriculum. There as a 20 minute rough cut video they showed us (they don't want us sharing it, because they're producing a proper professional one and this was just in various dojangs showing the range of the syllabus).



Based on what I've heard from several different sources that the only requirement in the KKW curriculum is the Taegeuk forms.


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## andyjeffries (Jun 11, 2018)

skribs said:


> Based on what I've heard from several different sources that the only requirement in the KKW curriculum is the Taegeuk forms.



There is certainly more to Dan grading requirements (also + WT-sparring and admittedly relatively easy destruction), however Kukkiwon acknowledges those are bare minimum specs and not the entire curriculum.

I would also say (if you're a KKW 2nd Dan upwards) that if you can afford it - attend the course. You'll learn a lot about what Kukkiwon Taekwondo is about and the entire syllabus.


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## dvcochran (Jun 11, 2018)

skribs said:


> Based on what I've heard from several different sources that the only requirement in the KKW curriculum is the Taegeuk forms.


It is misleading and often poorly presented by KKW. Taegeuk are the official forms but requirements get pretty loose after that. A school can fly the flag and still create their own curriculum. I have attended their self defense mod and feel it leaves a lot to be desired. IMHO.


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## dvcochran (Jun 11, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> So... why haven't you come up with applications yourself? Seriously. If the only applications you know are the ones you're spoon fed by your instructor, you're missing out on more than you're learning. Teaching a specific application of a movement is just a tool to try to get you to understand the principles behind it. Nothing more.
> 
> 
> 
> Because it takes more time and conditioning to do safely than most people will commit. The conditioning is fairly painful, and carries a significant risk of broken fingers. So people don't do it right. And then they end up with broken fingers. If you want to condition for spearhand strikes, great. Do so. But for most people, the risk/benefit ratio just doesn't add up. I did it when I was much younger, and like anything else it's easier to maintain than develop. But if I were starting over, I don't think I'd do it.


Agree with your first comment, not so much with the second. The purpose behind each move can be taught and explained. Of course they cannot be repeatedly practiced at full speed/power for the  reasons you mentioned. Breaking down poomse is one of my favorite learnings. 
Curious, on a different note, in your MDK do you punch to the face during sparring?


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## dvcochran (Jun 11, 2018)

skribs said:


> I assume you mean the motion of sticking your arm straight out with your fingertips being used for something other than striking with your fingertips?
> 
> I can think of several grappling applications that can apply strikes, such as a leg sweep using the motion of an elbow strike or ridge-hand, or a palm strike to trap the attacker's fingers, but I'm completely blanking out on how a spearhand can otherwise be used.
> 
> ...



As I was taught, augmenting the block, i.e. an outside block is pretty straight forward. Something really big or heavy is unavoidably coming your way.


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 11, 2018)

andyjeffries said:


> But I don't get how you'd get there. Modern WT sparring has very defensive chambers (where the knee blocks forward access), the footwork is very fluid and we train to be able to still kick from pushing distance (which is likely the distance you're talking about). Plus I can't imagine trying to kick from close range as a default (outside of sport contexts), only if starting from range - and I think a fighter will have a hard job coming in close on a correct kick.
> 
> However, when I got to Korea in a month, we're having a seminar with a self defence expert and one of the parts he's prepared for us is "kick defence", so we'll see what he teaches then.



I catch round kicks using cover punch as an entry.  It’s easy against people who bring the knee around. Against the front kick style chamber you have to be really fast, have perfect timing, or use footwork to move inside and slightly away from the kick. I “grab” the leg from underneath by wrapping/lifting my arm in the bend of the knee. If you move in correctly, you won’t even be hit by a high kick (even with your cover hand down). 

I can catch a kick by allowing a kick to the ribs and wrapping over the top, too, as long as I use some footwork to mitigate the damage from the kick. If you know the round kick is coming, it’s actually not that difficult. The problem is when you don’t know what’s coming. If you wanted to have no friends at the dojang you could probably catch round kicks and take people down all day since the default attack is round kick. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 11, 2018)

I don’t think I’d change anything about Taekwondo. I love it just as it is. I think Taekwondo has something for just about everyone, and it’s diverse enough to allow people to focus in their favorite area(s) should they choose to do so. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 11, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Agree with your first comment, not so much with the second. The purpose behind each move can be taught and explained. Of course they cannot be repeatedly practiced at full speed/power for the  reasons you mentioned. Breaking down poomse is one of my favorite learnings.



There is no "the" purpose behind any move. That's sort of the point I've been trying to make.
You can teach A purpose, and I do, but not THE. The difference is significant.



> Curious, on a different note, in your MDK do you punch to the face during sparring?



Not usually, because sending your friends home with a black eye isn't super cool. But yes, sometimes, primarily with more advanced students who have good control.


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## skribs (Jun 12, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> There is no "the" purpose behind any move. That's sort of the point I've been trying to make.



I think there is a primary purpose for most movements.  In general, applying a move into a different technique usually involves changing it somehow.  For example, a knife-hand block and a knife-hand strike use a similar movement, but the block will use more of the shoulder than the strike and will be more of a push than a strike, and your forearm will be at a different angle.  If you looked at me do a knife-hand block and then do a knife-hand strike, you will clearly see two different techniques, and each one has a purpose.  Heck, even the chamber is different (with the block I chamber with my elbow next to my chest, with the strike I have my elbow pointed at the target).

Now if I were to take each and find another application, besides the block or the strike, I could.  For example the motion of the knife-hand block can be used against the chest or neck as part of a leg sweep.  However, if I'm doing a sweep, I will probably do the motion in my arm slightly different (my forearm will be turned so I can push with my palm instead of the blade of my hand), so is that a different application of the knife-hand block motion, or a different move entirely?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

skribs said:


> Based on what I've heard from several different sources that the only requirement in the KKW curriculum is the Taegeuk forms.


There ought to be a difference between testing requirements and curriculum. Admittedly, there sometimes isn't.


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## skribs (Jun 12, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> There ought to be a difference between testing requirements and curriculum. Admittedly, there sometimes isn't.



Do you mean what CAN be taught at the school, or what IS taught at the school?

For example, we generally do obstacle games for the kids, and the rolling and cartwheels (more of a vault than an actual cartwheel) is done routinely in class, but doesn't show up on the test.  It's basically part of the curriculum, even if it isn't tested.

Alternatively, sometimes I'll show a wrist grab escape or something flashy like a superman punch, which isn't something we normally teach.  But it's something I CAN teach, because it's something I know.

If this all makes sense.

To apply this specifically to self defense, what I mean is - do you teach self defense concepts regularly, especially practicing specific things regularly?  Or do you consider it part of the curriculum if every once in a while the instructor says "today, we're going to practice if someone grabs you from behind, what you should do.


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## wab25 (Jun 12, 2018)

skribs said:


> I think there is a primary purpose for most movements.


This is correct. However, the primary purpose is not the application. The primary purpose is to teach you a set of proper principles. As a general rule, they should teach balance, movement, power generation... The application is secondary. In fact, in many cases, confining yourself to one application does a great job of limiting what that move is teaching you. I could be a punch, a block, an application of an arm bar, a choke a throw.... or lots of other things. But, if you can not make the movement correctly, none of those will work. If you make the movement correctly, you have a lot more options of what it could be. Change the distance, the set up, the angle... You should be able to find lots of applications for the same movement. Don't limit yourself to "this is a punch" or this is a "fingertip strike."


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

skribs said:


> Do you mean what CAN be taught at the school, or what IS taught at the school?
> 
> For example, we generally do obstacle games for the kids, and the rolling and cartwheels (more of a vault than an actual cartwheel) is done routinely in class, but doesn't show up on the test.  It's basically part of the curriculum, even if it isn't tested.
> 
> ...


The difference I'm talking about is easiest to describe from a self-defense curriculum, but I think applies to other approaches. I cover a pretty wide range of Arm Bar applications, for instance. I only test one (in addition to the form) - and the student gets to choose which one. I also teach a near endless number of applications that start from a basic straight punch (whether rear straight or jab, or even a formal straight punch), and don't specifically test any of them. During their testing, they'll face straight punches. I'm pretty much okay with it if their response to those doesn't touch grappling techniques (which are the only things we actually refer to as "techniques", and so the only "applications" in our vernacular).

So, there's a huge curriculum that takes many years to cover. Testing is meant to check overall level, and to ensure some specific points are up to snuff, rather than to ensure they can do everything in the curriculum.


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## skribs (Jun 12, 2018)

wab25 said:


> This is correct. However, the primary purpose is not the application. The primary purpose is to teach you a set of proper principles. As a general rule, they should teach balance, movement, power generation... The application is secondary. In fact, in many cases, confining yourself to one application does a great job of limiting what that move is teaching you. I could be a punch, a block, an application of an arm bar, a choke a throw.... or lots of other things. But, if you can not make the movement correctly, none of those will work. If you make the movement correctly, you have a lot more options of what it could be. Change the distance, the set up, the angle... You should be able to find lots of applications for the same movement. Don't limit yourself to "this is a punch" or this is a "fingertip strike."



On the one hand, where this whole discussion started was me seeking *at least one* application of some of the techniques, or at the very least seeking which one was the originally intended application of the technique.

On the other hand, I've seen quite a few students whose knife-hand block and strike both look exactly the same.  I think finding another application for the blocking motion is actually a hindrance to them learning the proper striking motion.


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## wab25 (Jun 12, 2018)

skribs said:


> On the one hand, where this whole discussion started was me seeking *at least one* application of some of the techniques


I believe you were asking about the spear hand. Why do we practice the spear hand, but don't condition our fingers to make that strike? I am studying Skotokan, not TKD, but I think they are similar for this discussion. Step forward into right front stance, right arm extended, right hand in spear shape, with left hand supporting under the elbow.


Finger tip strike - this is out because very few condition their fingers.
Its a reach into the gi / jacket, for the lapel (the back of your spear hand is against their chest, fingers reaching into the label) to set up a gi / jacket choke.
Its the application of an arm bar, think ulna press, after exposing the back of his arm using your left hand, you step forward running your spear hand across his arm, rotating his arm into the arm bar as you extend past. (you left hand was grabbed in a cross grab, you executed your knife hand block by bringing your left hand up to your face, palm towards you, then making the blocking motion, putting you hand on top, and breaking his grip... this also exposed the back of his arm to you... your left hand hooks his wrist, as it goes back into chamber as you spear hand over applying the arm bar... this one is a two'fer)
If you start in a judo style lapel and sleeve grip, right hand one the lapel, you can step forward into front stance, with a low block, which should off balance uke. You then advance across the front of him, extending your spear hand with your fingers in his lapel... makes a nice throw.
I am going to cheat here, get much closer to uke than in #4. Everything is the same, except that your spear hand goes around his waist, this turns into a hip throw, o'goshi from judo. Without the other guy, your spear hand is showing the direction your power should be going to properly throw uke over your hip.
Thats just 5. I am sure there are a ton more applications to that motion. Only the first one required finger conditioning.



skribs said:


> On the other hand, I've seen quite a few students whose knife-hand block and strike both look exactly the same.


I am not sure I see a problem with that. (it may be that in TKD, these two arts have differences...) At the end of the day, the same motion you use for a knife hand block, will work quite well as a strike, if you move close enough. Your knife hand strike will work great as a block, if you are too far for the strike.


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## skribs (Jun 12, 2018)

wab25 said:


> I believe you were asking about the spear hand. Why do we practice the spear hand, but don't condition our fingers to make that strike? I am studying Skotokan, not TKD, but I think they are similar for this discussion. Step forward into right front stance, right arm extended, right hand in spear shape, with left hand supporting under the elbow.
> 
> 
> Finger tip strike - this is out because very few condition their fingers.
> ...



That was one part of the discussion, but wasn't the only question.  For example, I have a primary application of a spearhand strike (to strike with the fingers).  The question there is why is it practiced in forms if never practiced in drills?  (And if it was in a drill and used a different application than what the form suggests, that might be the primary application).

2.  I can see this if a grab motion is next.  If not, then I don't really see it as a primary application of the technique.
3.  I'd have to see it in action to see what you're thinking, but in general our spearhand strikes are straight out, and our wristlocks/armbars generally involve lateral or vertical movement of the knife-hand on the elbow joint.
4&5.  I may have to see it in action to understand what you're describing.

---

The knife-hand block and strike have two very different ways in which they operate.  Just like a snap front kick to the chin is completely different from a teep kick to the stomach.  You don't throw a teep to knock someone out and you don't throw the snap kick to launch someone back several feet.

Similarly, the knife-hand block is designed to put a vertical bar between you and your attacker's arm.  It's more of a shove than a hit.  If you do happen to strike the opponent's arm, that's a bonus, the primary application is to push the attacker's arm away from your head.  The knife-hand strike is designed to apply penetration damage from the edge of your hand into the attacker's neck.

Now, if you use the motion of the knife-hand block, what you might have happen:

Hit the shoulder instead of the neck, because you are using a more vertical arm position
Push the neck instead of strike the neck, because the motion you are using isn't optimized for striking
Strike with the wrong part of the hand, because you do the motion of the block and then extend the arm straight out, which means you're more likely to hit with your fingers than the blade of your hand
I'm not saying you can't take a knife-hand block and apply it as a strike.  Nor am I saying you can't take the motion of the knife-hand block and build that into your practice towards a strike.  I am saying that the motions aren't exactly similar, and so if I practice a knife-hand block, I can't neglect practicing the strike as well.

---

Going back to my discussion on what the discussion was about...the other aspect are things in which it's not clear at all *to me* what the primary application is.  Things like augmented blocks, double blocks, etc.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 13, 2018)

skribs said:


> On the other hand, I've seen quite a few students whose knife-hand block and strike both look exactly the same.



This is a Good Thing (tm). A knife hand block IS a knife hand strike. If I do a knife hand block to your arm, it's going to hurt. Because it's a strike. And I'm likely to target one of the pressure points in your arm, so it might well hurt a LOT.


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## skribs (Jun 13, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> This is a Good Thing (tm). A knife hand block IS a knife hand strike. If I do a knife hand block to your arm, it's going to hurt. Because it's a strike. And I'm likely to target one of the pressure points in your arm, so it might well hurt a LOT.



A knife-hand block to an incoming punch is going to be a slightly different motion than a knife-hand strike to the neck.

Just like a jab is a different motion than a lead hook punch.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 13, 2018)

skribs said:


> A knife-hand block to an incoming punch is going to be a slightly different motion than a knife-hand strike to the neck.
> 
> Just like a jab is a different motion than a lead hook punch.



Sure. Because the arm is a lot closer than the neck. If you think ANY movement in a fight is going to be exactly the same as it is in forms, you are mistaken. Principles. Not carbon copy movements.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 13, 2018)

skribs said:


> A knife-hand block to an incoming punch is going to be a slightly different motion than a knife-hand strike to the neck.
> 
> Just like a jab is a different motion than a lead hook punch.


You're using radically different targets in those examples. If I were chopping a target at a similar range and angle to where I'd block, my chop looks like my knife-hand block. In fact, it looks exactly like it (because I use a chop to block), unless I'm altering the block into something else/more (like using the block to drive down to break structure). Once I do that, it has a different purpose. Still starts out quite like the chop, though.


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## dvcochran (Jun 13, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> This is a Good Thing (tm). A knife hand block IS a knife hand strike. If I do a knife hand block to your arm, it's going to hurt. Because it's a strike. And I'm likely to target one of the pressure points in your arm, so it might well hurt a LOT.


If you were able to get the attacker in semi-static position the knife hand pressure point attack might make sense. But at full speed or more so in an unexpected attack, does a knife hand strike make any sense? It's a very narrow surface. I would call the application of a knife hand BLOCK an advanced skill.
I also teach the KH strike as a penetration or crease strike, working its way around blocks and body parts because of its small surface area.


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## wab25 (Jun 13, 2018)

skribs said:


> A knife-hand block to an incoming punch is going to be a slightly different motion than a knife-hand strike to the neck.


You are focusing on the wrong end... the hand. Try focusing on the other end first, the feet, then the hips, then the body and shoulders. Where is the power coming from? How is it being generated? How are you arresting it? What direction is the power moving in? What is your body alignment? ... When you make your punch or block or spear hand strike... look more at what your body is doing and less at what your hand is doing.

As for my examples... I wish I were better with words to explain those applications. I have demonstrated those applications to both Danzan Ryu guys and Shotokan guys. What I find very interesting is how little I have to change from the "spear hand strike" technique in order to demonstrate these applications on an uke, causing him to tap, choke or be thrown. I am sure there are many more applications of this technique.

If thinking of it as a finger tip strike, helps you do it properly in your kata... keep doing it. Don't worry about the finger conditioning... unless you want to go that route. Now, focus on what your body is doing, and don't limit yourself to one application.


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## skribs (Jun 13, 2018)

wab25 said:


> You are focusing on the wrong end... the hand. Try focusing on the other end first, the feet, then the hips, then the body and shoulders. Where is the power coming from? How is it being generated? How are you arresting it? What direction is the power moving in? What is your body alignment? ... When you make your punch or block or spear hand strike... look more at what your body is doing and less at what your hand is doing.



First off, I'm actually focusing on the elbow and forearm, not the hand itself.  


The feet & hips - both are typically done in a back stance in our curriculum.  
The direction of power from our rear leg is usually more forward in a strike than in a block, which is more lateral.  The power in the block is more generated from the shoulder, while the strike is generated from the elbow.
The block is usually arrested by purposefully stopping the motion before we swing too wide.  It might transition into grabbing the attacker's arm, into a strike with that hand (as in a palm strike), or into a technique with the other hand.  The strike is arrested by the extension of your arm (as in, if the strike continued, you'd break your elbow), and we typically follow up with the other hand, or else grabbing the lapel for a sweep (which is a slightly different grab than grabbing a wrist).

The only similarity is that the technique is typically done in back stance with the lead arm.  The way my feet press against the mat, the direction of power through my core are both different.  The chamber is different, the elbow is completely different, the arm is oriented different and the motion is completely different.

Both a snap front kick and a teep kick (front pushing kick) will feature a similar motion, but it is a completely different chamber and motion to do a push than to do a strike.



> As for my examples... I wish I were better with words to explain those applications. I have demonstrated those applications to both Danzan Ryu guys and Shotokan guys. What I find very interesting is how little I have to change from the "spear hand strike" technique in order to demonstrate these applications on an uke, causing him to tap, choke or be thrown. I am sure there are many more applications of this technique.



Maybe a video would help.


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## wab25 (Jun 13, 2018)

skribs said:


> The power in the block is more generated from the shoulder, while the strike is generated from the elbow.


Maybe TKD is different. But in Shotokan, there is the idea of body unification. You want your body to move together as a single unit rather than as a collection of separate and independent entities. In Shotokan, the power for the block would be generated from the hips, utilizing the power of the legs. The power for the strike would be generated from the hips, utilizing the power of the legs. You can generate much more power using your entire body, instead of just your shoulder or elbow.



skribs said:


> The feet & hips - both are typically done in a back stance in our curriculum.


This is similar to Shotokan. So, you are learning to do 2 different things here, from the back stance.



skribs said:


> The direction of power from our rear leg is usually more forward in a strike than in a block, which is more lateral.


 Correct. You are using your rear leg differently in these 2 techniques. In one, you are learning to generate forward power from the rear leg, while in back stance. In the other, you are learning to generate lateral power from the rear leg, while in back stance. The application of that power, you are generating, can be used for what ever you want (strike, block, lock, choke, throw...). It just so happens that a block and a strike are used to teach those 2 methods of power generation. It makes teaching the technique easier... but don't limit yourself to only learning about the teaching aids. (Note that there are a lot more things going on here... but I will leave you to look for them)

Please understand that I am not trying to argue here, but rather help you to see past your hands (and forearm and elbow) to see what is in these kata / forms. You are noticing a lot of detail about the hands, the elbows, the shoulders, the feet, the targets... Look at your center, your balance, your body unification... basically all the things between your knees and elbows... with that same degree of detail. There is a lot there to find. At least I think so.


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## skribs (Jun 13, 2018)

wab25 said:


> Maybe TKD is different. But in Shotokan, there is the idea of body unification. You want your body to move together as a single unit rather than as a collection of separate and independent entities. In Shotokan, the power for the block would be generated from the hips, utilizing the power of the legs. The power for the strike would be generated from the hips, utilizing the power of the legs. You can generate much more power using your entire body, instead of just your shoulder or elbow.



As I said in the previous sentence, I understand it starts from the foot.  Did you seriously separate these sentences in the quotes so you could post some high-and-mighty "it's not in the arm, it's the whole body" speel?  Is this to make yourself look better or to cut down my argument?  

Would it help if I phrased it like this?  "With the block, the main upper-body joints that are moving are the rotation of the shoulder and the twist of the wrist, whereas with the strike the shoulder and wrist are relatively static and the elbow is the joint with the most movement."



> This is similar to Shotokan. So, you are learning to do 2 different things here, from the back stance.



Yes.  I don't really see the relevance at this point in discussing this, though.



> Correct. You are using your rear leg differently in these 2 techniques. In one, you are learning to generate forward power from the rear leg, while in back stance. In the other, you are learning to generate lateral power from the rear leg, while in back stance. The application of that power, you are generating, can be used for what ever you want (strike, block, lock, choke, throw...). It just so happens that a block and a strike are used to teach those 2 methods of power generation. It makes teaching the technique easier... but don't limit yourself to only learning about the teaching aids. (Note that there are a lot more things going on here... but I will leave you to look for them)



Are you looking at two isolated techniques and trying to extrapolate our entire curriculum based on that?  The application of that motion is going to change what you do with your hand (as I've discussed plenty in this thread), but also going to change how you apply the strength and position of your legs.

For example, let's take the knife-hand block from a back stance.  If I want to use it as a strike (for example, a forward strike to the throat or collarbone) I will add a forward motion to it, which will change the direction of my power and change the interaction with the various joints in my arm.  I'm having trouble seeing how the motion of an outward block would be used for a joint lock (to set up one, yes, to apply one directly, no).  For a choke I would end up putting even more forward pressure than with the strike, probably combined with upward presser into the throat, which again changes the direction of everything.  For a throw, I would turn into a horse stance so that my knee is pointing in the direction of force against my leg when I make the throw.  This gives me more stability and less risk of injury.

The more you look at it, the less similar these techniques become.  The more details you add, the more that must be changed to go from one application to another.  



> Please understand that I am not trying to argue here, but rather help you to see past your hands (and forearm and elbow) to see what is in these kata / forms. You are noticing a lot of detail about the hands, the elbows, the shoulders, the feet, the targets... Look at your center, your balance, your body unification... basically all the things between your knees and elbows... with that same degree of detail. There is a lot there to find. At least I think so.



Everything you've asked me about the differences between these two techniques are things I've already known.  You haven't made me think harder about the techniques at all.  All you've done is highlight to me that these are different techniques, and that the entire body is doing different things with a knife-hand block to an incoming punch than with a knife-hand strike to an opponent's neck.  

And it does seem like you're trying to argue, since you've taken points of mine, broken them up, and then pointed out how the individual sentences don't cover caveats that the other half of the point talks about.


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## wab25 (Jun 13, 2018)

skribs said:


> *The application of that motion* is going to change what you do with your hand (as I've discussed plenty in this thread), *but also going to change how you apply the strength and position of your legs*.


The bolded part is where we disagree. All of the applications I presented were for the spear hand art. When I do each one I discussed, my feet, legs, hips, and body move exactly the same, as for the spear hand art. The only time my arm changed, was for the hip throw, but even then, everything else moved exactly the same. If I get a chance to make a video, I may post that to demonstrate. The only differences I added were the setup moves. For some I did the knife hand block into back stance, prior to stepping forward into the spear hand art. The other times I step forward into a left side front stance, before stepping forward into the spear hand. The whole point being that how I apply the strength and position of my legs, hips and body does not change for different applications. Each application can be done by stepping forward into the spear hand art, exactly as done in the kata / form.



skribs said:


> All you've done is highlight to me that these are different techniques, and that the entire body is doing different things with a knife-hand block to an incoming punch than with a knife-hand strike to an opponent's neck.


Again, I disagree, assuming that both the strike and the block are horizontal in nature, and done from the back stance. Whether my knife hand impacts a forearm for a "block" or a neck for a "strike," they are the same. (my feet may be closer to his feet for one though, so that I don't have to reach) If one is moving the power forward, that is a second technique and that can also be used as a strike or block (or throw, lock, choke...) The target or application does not change the body motions. 

I don't wish to argue. I apologize if coming off that way. We will just have to agree to disagree here. I will move on to other threads.


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## skribs (Jun 13, 2018)

wab25 said:


> Again, I disagree, assuming that both the strike and the block are horizontal in nature, and done from the back stance. Whether my knife hand impacts a forearm for a "block" or a neck for a "strike," they are the same. (my feet may be closer to his feet for one though, so that I don't have to reach) If one is moving the power forward, that is a second technique and that can also be used as a strike or block (or throw, lock, choke...) The target or application does not change the body motions.



With a strike, the payload you are moving is the hand.  With the block, the payload you are moving is the forearm.  This is because it is a lot easier to hit a relatively still target like the neck, than a rapidly moving target like a punch. 

If I do the block like a strike, then I've significantly increased the margin for error, as I have to exactly hit their arm with my hand, or I fail to block and their attack lands.  Instead, I make my forearm, elbow, and knifehand into one large bar that I use to deflect the strike.  If I'm 6 inches high or low, I will still block the strike.  If it's just my hand, or if everything is level, then I need to be within an inch to be successful.

On the other hand, if I do a strike like the block, then I'm shortening the lever arm to make my strike more accurate, when what I need is more speed and strength.  Even if I want to use the forearm instead of my hand, the goal becomes to deliver my power to a specific location, whereas with the block, the goal is to provide a barrier to my enemy.

You can hit people with a shield and you can block attacks with a sword, but that doesn't mean you want to primarily use a shield to strike or a sword to block, and all 4 combinations of weapon/technique are going to involve different motions.


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## dvcochran (Jun 13, 2018)

skribs said:


> First off, I'm actually focusing on the elbow and forearm, not the hand itself.
> 
> 
> The feet & hips - both are typically done in a back stance in our curriculum.
> ...



I agree. However, I don't think I have ever seen a knife hand from a back stance. I assume the motion is from the back side of the body, not across the front like an outside block? I have never been a fan of power strikes from a back stance; they seem somewhat awkward if I am the slightest bit off balance of out of stance. Any chance you have a video?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 13, 2018)

skribs said:


> With a strike, the payload you are moving is the hand.  With the block, the payload you are moving is the forearm.  This is because it is a lot easier to hit a relatively still target like the neck, than a rapidly moving target like a punch.
> 
> If I do the block like a strike, then I've significantly increased the margin for error, as I have to exactly hit their arm with my hand, or I fail to block and their attack lands.  Instead, I make my forearm, elbow, and knifehand into one large bar that I use to deflect the strike.  If I'm 6 inches high or low, I will still block the strike.  If it's just my hand, or if everything is level, then I need to be within an inch to be successful.
> 
> ...


I don't see the difference you see. If you put a striking target where I can hit it with my hand (so I'm now focused on a strike, rather than a block), not much changes. In both motions to that target area, my hand moves faster than my elbow, but the entire arm is in motion (shoulder is moving, elbow is moving). I am a bit more circular with the block, to ensure it covers more area in the middle, but that's a change by degrees.


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 13, 2018)

I personally don’t see a need to come up with 20 different applications for techniques in poomsae. Part of that stems from the fact that I don’t need to be able to use every technique in sparring/fighting/self defense. The other part for me is that I don’t believe that Taekwondo only includes techniques found in poomsae. No one seems to take issue with this when it comes to kicking techniques, as many kicks recognized as Taekwondo are not found in poomsae. 

I include joint locking and some groundwork in my Taekwondo curriculum, but I don’t need to connect everything to poomsae to make it work. I’d rather spend my time practicing techniques and applications without forcing a connection that may or may not be there. For me, there are better uses of my time than reverse engineering techniques because I want my poomsae to have something in there. Having said that, I don’t really care if someone else wants to do that, as long as they’re not high and mighty about it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2018)

Jaeimseu said:


> I personally don’t see a need to come up with 20 different applications for techniques in poomsae. Part of that stems from the fact that I don’t need to be able to use every technique in sparring/fighting/self defense. The other part for me is that I don’t believe that Taekwondo only includes techniques found in poomsae. No one seems to take issue with this when it comes to kicking techniques, as many kicks recognized as Taekwondo are not found in poomsae.
> 
> I include joint locking and some groundwork in my Taekwondo curriculum, but I don’t need to connect everything to poomsae to make it work. I’d rather spend my time practicing techniques and applications without forcing a connection that may or may not be there. For me, there are better uses of my time than reverse engineering techniques because I want my poomsae to have something in there. Having said that, I don’t really care if someone else wants to do that, as long as they’re not high and mighty about it.
> 
> ...


I like that approach. I don't mind if someone borrows movement from forms to help students understand part of a technique/application ("so here, you're going to step and move your right hand like X in Y form"). That makes the form useful shorthand. I don't see a big need to find depth in forms - they are movement, and can be used in any way that serves the practitioner/student. Some folks are by nature rule-followers, and I suspect their brains are more likely to want - and see - those ties back to forms. I don't have a problem with them doing that, so long as they don't expect me to follow their line of reasoning, because I'm more conceptual than that.


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## pdg (Jun 14, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I agree. However, I don't think I have ever seen a knife hand from a back stance. I assume the motion is from the back side of the body, not across the front like an outside block? I have never been a fan of power strikes from a back stance; they seem somewhat awkward if I am the slightest bit off balance of out of stance. Any chance you have a video?



Is a back stance the same as an L stance?

If so, in the Dan-Gun pattern there are knifehand guarding blocks (moves 1 and 3) and knifehand strikes (moves 18 and 20) in L stance.

There are more instances of the same (and different) knifehand techniques in other patterns too, which I can cite if you like?


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## dvcochran (Jun 14, 2018)

pdg said:


> Is a back stance the same as an L stance?
> 
> If so, in the Dan-Gun pattern there are knifehand guarding blocks (moves 1 and 3) and knifehand strikes (moves 18 and 20) in L stance.
> 
> There are more instances of the same (and different) knifehand techniques in other patterns too, which I can cite if you like?


Yes, I have heard L stance and back stance used synonymously although I suspect weighting is different. I watch a video of Dan-Gun and I think we are back to semantics. I see the knife hand moves you mention and we use them in various forms but I have never seen a spear hand in back stance.  I don't see how the mechanics would work.


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## dvcochran (Jun 14, 2018)

Jaeimseu said:


> I personally don’t see a need to come up with 20 different applications for techniques in poomsae. Part of that stems from the fact that I don’t need to be able to use every technique in sparring/fighting/self defense. The other part for me is that I don’t believe that Taekwondo only includes techniques found in poomsae. No one seems to take issue with this when it comes to kicking techniques, as many kicks recognized as Taekwondo are not found in poomsae.
> 
> I include joint locking and some groundwork in my Taekwondo curriculum, but I don’t need to connect everything to poomsae to make it work. I’d rather spend my time practicing techniques and applications without forcing a connection that may or may not be there. For me, there are better uses of my time than reverse engineering techniques because I want my poomsae to have something in there. Having said that, I don’t really care if someone else wants to do that, as long as they’re not high and mighty about it.
> 
> ...



I agree that there are inherent differences with forms in totality compared to say, chained sparring techniques especially in modern sparring. I see more connections with forms and many SD techniques. What is often missed in the use and benefit of forms is the mental requirements. I feel they apply, and therefore connect to all aspects of a MA that properly teach forms.


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## pdg (Jun 15, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Yes, I have heard L stance and back stance used synonymously although I suspect weighting is different. I watch a video of Dan-Gun and I think we are back to semantics. I see the knife hand moves you mention and we use them in various forms but I have never seen a spear hand in back stance.  I don't see how the mechanics would work.



In that case, yes, semantics.

L stance is 70/30 weight distribution, and:


 

Not sure how that relates to back stance, but the two look otherwise similar from an image search...

That to me is a knifehand - the 'tool' is the side of your open hand, from little finger (pinky?) to wrist.

A reverse knifehand is from index finger to wrist with you thumb tucked out of the way (is that ridge hand to others?)

Those are used to perform strikes or blocks.


"Straight fingertip" is what I think of when you say "spearhand" - mechanics like a 'normal' punch, but using the fingertips?

That's not used for a strike, but for a thrust (which is a kind of strike admittedly, but different...)



I don't recall seeing one in L (back) stance, but I'm intrigued enough to look now. 

We have punches performed in L stance, so I would assume the mechanics would translate to a fingertip thrust?


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 15, 2018)

Semantics, Semantics. - For the Chang Hon system i.e. Dan Gun pattern as mentioned.  In General Choi's 1965 Book the term back stance was used.  From 1972 text onward it was L stance and parameters while better defined  remained with a 70/30 weight distribution.    Techniques using the fingertips (among others) are generally "Thrusts" more on that in a moment- and the 3 most common depending on orientation of the palm are "Straight" ,  (perpendicular to the floor) , "Flat"   (Downward) , "Upset" (Upward) .    There are 3  basic  types of attacking motions   (There are more than 3 , but these are the most common, ) Being "Piercing" "Striking"  and "Thrusting" . It is explicitly stated that their is overlap in methodology and application, but with regard to "Thrust" the purpose is to "Cut Through" (better word might be "Penetrate")   a soft vital area.    So, while you can condition the fingertips for hard targets and many demonstrate wood breaks with such, that is not designated as among the optimal application.   (I will leave to to others to expand on the terminology as it may apply to other systems. )


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## pdg (Jun 15, 2018)

@Earl Weiss - do you know of a fingertip thrust performed from L stance being demonstrated in any of the Chang Hon patterns?


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## GreatSayiaman (Jun 15, 2018)

In my honest opinion when it comes to TKD as a former practitioner and former Black Belt of the art this is what I would love to see in general with in all organization. First would be take a more practical approach to the art, start to discard techniques that are not practical within a self defense or fight situation as well as discarding the Forms . 2nd get rid of the point sparring and work on a more practical technical sparring by adding some different style techniques such as throws, sweeps, clinches, takedowns,  catches similar to how Muay Thai does it's sparring adds a bit more practical elements within TKD. The last slowing it down with the quick belting promotions within the art as I feel black belts are given out like candy and they should really have a age limit on when you are eligible for a black belt. 

Personally this is my take and views on TKD in general and will always have love for the first martial art that got me introduce to the wonderful Martial Arts Community. But changes do need to happen within TKD.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 15, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> If you were able to get the attacker in semi-static position the knife hand pressure point attack might make sense. But at full speed or more so in an unexpected attack, does a knife hand strike make any sense? It's a very narrow surface. I would call the application of a knife hand BLOCK an advanced skill.
> I also teach the KH strike as a penetration or crease strike, working its way around blocks and body parts because of its small surface area.



What can I say, other than it works for me, and has in far too many confrontations for me to stop doing it.


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## pdg (Jun 15, 2018)

GreatSayiaman said:


> In my honest opinion when it comes to TKD as a former practitioner and former Black Belt of the art this is what I would love to see in general with in all organization. First would be take a more practical approach to the art, start to discard techniques that are not practical within a self defense or fight situation as well as discarding the Forms . 2nd get rid of the point sparring and work on a more practical technical sparring by adding some different style techniques such as throws, sweeps, clinches, takedowns,  catches similar to how Muay Thai does it's sparring adds a bit more practical elements within TKD. The last slowing it down with the quick belting promotions within the art as I feel black belts are given out like candy and they should really have a age limit on when you are eligible for a black belt.
> 
> Personally this is my take and views on TKD in general and will always have love for the first martial art that got me introduce to the wonderful Martial Arts Community. But changes do need to happen within TKD.



Stripping out all the stuff you listed would make it no longer TKD to be honest.

So you don't like patterns? Pick another art.

The stuff you listed are all part and parcel of it - if you think it's not what you want because "meh, it's not self defence" go do a SD class instead.

A move doesn't work? Prove it. I'll bet there are moves you consider impractical that I can make work just fine.

Also - we have age limits for belts as well as minimum terms between gradings, so don't tar all of TKD with the mcdojang label please.

Changes that suit you and make it more what you think it should be certainly don't suit everyone.


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## GreatSayiaman (Jun 15, 2018)

pdg said:


> Stripping out all the stuff you listed would make it no longer TKD to be honest.
> 
> So you don't like patterns? Pick another art.
> 
> ...



Well no it not just the Meh it's not self defense its what I feel is reasonable feedback on what needs to be evolved within TKD within a Whole, Sure there are TKD schools that do have age limits for belts and minimum terms withing grading, But I feel all of the TKD organizations should meet so they can address the issues and give each other feedback about situations they feel they do not agree with. 

Like I said I was a former TKD student and I'm belted and certified under the Kukkiwon but these are my personal views and not an attack on TKD as a whole. But to each its own.


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## GreatSayiaman (Jun 15, 2018)

GreatSayiaman said:


> Well no it not just the Meh it's not self defense its what I feel is reasonable feedback on what needs to be evolved within TKD within a Whole, Sure there are TKD schools that do have age limits for belts and minimum terms withing grading, But I feel all of the TKD organizations should meet so they can address the issues and give each other feedback about situations they feel they do not agree with.
> 
> Like I said I was a former TKD student and I'm belted and certified under the Kukkiwon but these are my personal views and not an attack on TKD as a whole. But to each its own.


 BTW I fully respect in what you say about TKD and Kudos to the Belt Age Limit where you train at.


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## pdg (Jun 15, 2018)

GreatSayiaman said:


> Well no it not just the Meh it's not self defense its what I feel is reasonable feedback on what needs to be evolved within TKD within a Whole, Sure there are TKD schools that do have age limits for belts and minimum terms withing grading, But I feel all of the TKD organizations should meet so they can address the issues and give each other feedback about situations they feel they do not agree with.
> 
> Like I said I was a former TKD student and I'm belted and certified under the Kukkiwon but these are my personal views and not an attack on TKD as a whole. But to each its own.





GreatSayiaman said:


> BTW I fully respect in what you say about TKD and Kudos to the Belt Age Limit where you train at.



Maybe it's more a KKW thing with the apparent focus on the Olympic style of point sparring - we don't spar like that...

The age limits are down to the organisation we're affiliated with, not just the school itself.

If I chose a KKW school instead then apparently I could be almost 2nd dan by now - but where I'm in an ITF school I'm 3rd kup after just over 2 years, and that's taking into account I've graded each time after minimum time in grade...


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## GreatSayiaman (Jun 15, 2018)

pdg said:


> Maybe it's more a KKW thing with the apparent focus on the Olympic style of point sparring - we don't spar like that...
> 
> The age limits are down to the organisation we're affiliated with, not just the school itself.
> 
> If I chose a KKW school instead then apparently I could be almost 2nd dan by now - but where I'm in an ITF school I'm 3rd kup after just over 2 years, and that's taking into account I've graded each time after minimum time in grade...


Not Bad  I only knew the KKW Org and ATA that is all. Now I'm strictly a Muay Thai and BJJ  guy and within Muay Thai there are no Belts and BJJ I know different art but very hard to get Rank in BJJ. I understand how Dans work how do the Kup work within ITF


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## pdg (Jun 15, 2018)

GreatSayiaman said:


> Not Bad  I only knew the KKW Org and ATA that is all. Now I'm strictly a Muay Thai and BJJ  guy and within Muay Thai there are no Belts and BJJ I know different art but very hard to get Rank in BJJ. I understand how Dans work how do the Kup work within ITF



Kind of the same as KKW colour belts as far as I know. But there's more than one ITF...

White belt is 10th kup, count down to red/black for 1st kup then into 1st dan BB.

There are minimums between belts (elapsed time and number of classes attended) as well as technical and practical knowledge.

For someone my age (well above any age limits ) the fastest it's possible to get to 1st dan is 3 years 9 months (maybe 4 years now, I heard about the possibility of extending time at 1st kup), but the quickest one I know currently took 5 years.

PM me if you want to know more, rather than derail the thread more...


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 15, 2018)

pdg said:


> Stripping out all the stuff you listed would make it no longer TKD to be honest.
> 
> So you don't like patterns? Pick another art.
> 
> ...


I'm not convinced forms are inherent to any art. The principles (and the techniques based upon them) make the art what it is. A TKD instructor could teach the art without forms (obviously, probably not within any major organization), and a boxing coach could develop some forms to work footwork and combo's. They'd still be teaching TKD and boxing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 15, 2018)

GreatSayiaman said:


> Well no it not just the Meh it's not self defense its what I feel is reasonable feedback on what needs to be evolved within TKD within a Whole, Sure there are TKD schools that do have age limits for belts and minimum terms withing grading, But I feel all of the TKD organizations should meet so they can address the issues and give each other feedback about situations they feel they do not agree with.
> 
> Like I said I was a former TKD student and I'm belted and certified under the Kukkiwon but these are my personal views and not an attack on TKD as a whole. But to each its own.


It's not really necessary for all - or even most - organizations within an art to agree on those things. Heck, one organization could get all self-defense oriented, while another focused on the Olympic sport/competition aspect, and so on.


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## dvcochran (Jun 16, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> What can I say, other than it works for me, and has in far too many confrontations for me to stop doing it.



I have been having a brain fart. I have been thinking about a spear hand the whole time we have had this conversation. Someone else mentioned watching a Dan-Gun video and I figured out my mistake. 

That said, I very much agree that the knife hand is very useful and possibly the most natural block we do.


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## dvcochran (Jun 16, 2018)

pdg said:


> In that case, yes, semantics.
> 
> L stance is 70/30 weight distribution, and:
> 
> ...



My apologies, I was having a brain fart throughout the whole conversation be having the knife hand in mind. Amazing how long these senior moments get sometimes. Haha
It got me thinking about other hand strikes/blocks and I created a new post about it. Hopefully I will not pass gas again.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 16, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I have been having a brain fart. I have been thinking about a spear hand the whole time we have had this conversation. Someone else mentioned watching a Dan-Gun video and I figured out my mistake.
> 
> That said, I very much agree that the knife hand is very useful and possibly the most natural block we do.



Now I understand why you said you thought this was a very advanced technique. I let it go without comment, but my immediate response was "Are you nuts? It's one of the easiest."


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 16, 2018)

pdg said:


> @Earl Weiss - do you know of a fingertip thrust performed from L stance being demonstrated in any of the Chang Hon patterns?


I cannot think of any off the top of my head.    The reason for this question?


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 16, 2018)

GreatSayiaman said:


> First would be take a more practical approach to the art, start to discard techniques that are not practical within a self defense or fight situation as well as discarding the Forms . .


If  you only want to do stuff for   You don't need a "Martial Art"


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## pdg (Jun 16, 2018)

Earl Weiss said:


> I cannot think of any off the top of my head.    The reason for this question?



The reason is that that was what I interpreted @dvcochran was working toward (with his whole senior moment episode with the knifehand/spearhand/fingertip confusion) and you knowledge is exponentially greater than mine...


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> The reason is that that was what I interpreted @dvcochran was working toward (with his whole senior moment episode with the knifehand/spearhand/fingertip confusion) and you knowledge is exponentially greater than mine...


 Sir, Thank you. I see it now - post #81.


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## skribs (Jul 22, 2018)

I think one thing I might change is the terminology.  Instead of "inside" and "outside" I would use "inward" and "outward."  Because the "inside axe kick" starts inside and the "inside block" ends inside.  If you say "outward" you imply a direction, so an outward axe kick or an outward block both mean the same direction.


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## pdg (Jul 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> I think one thing I might change is the terminology.  Instead of "inside" and "outside" I would use "inward" and "outward."  Because the "inside axe kick" starts inside and the "inside block" ends inside.  If you say "outward" you imply a direction, so an outward axe kick or an outward block both mean the same direction.



We use inward and outward...

For instance, an inner forearm inward block is obviously different to an inner forearm outward block


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2018)

pdg said:


> We use inward and outward...
> 
> For instance, an inner forearm inward block is obviously different to an inner forearm outward block


I just can't picture what an inner forearm outward block is. It seems it would require a dislocation.


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## pdg (Jul 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I just can't picture what an inner forearm outward block is. It seems it would require a dislocation.



Grab your belt buckle - that can be where you start.

Then, move your arm so that:

High section - look at your palm.

Low section - put the back of your knuckles on your knee.

That's kind of where you finish.



In this nomenclature, the radius is your inner forearm, the ulna is your outer forearm.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2018)

pdg said:


> Grab your belt buckle - that can be where you start.
> 
> Then, move your arm so that:
> 
> ...


Ah, I was picturing it as an upper-body block. Makes much more sense (and is less self-destructive) the way you describe. Maybe it's better if you teach that one.


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## skribs (Jul 22, 2018)

pdg said:


> We use inward and outward...
> 
> For instance, an inner forearm inward block is obviously different to an inner forearm outward block



Yeah, there are more ways to break it down from there.  But at least you'd have a consistent direction!

One thing a former student of my school was complaining about is that at her new school, an "outside block" is done with the palm out, while at our school an "outside block" is done with the palm in.












The top image is how we do it at our school, the bottom image is how they do it at her school.  (At my school we teach the bottom block with the knife-hand, and call it "knife-hand block".  Later on we learn the top version with the open hand, but we don't really do the bottom version with fist).


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## pdg (Jul 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> Yeah, there are more ways to break it down from there.  But at least you'd have a consistent direction!
> 
> One thing a former student of my school was complaining about is that at her new school, an "outside block" is done with the palm out, while at our school an "outside block" is done with the palm in.
> 
> ...



We do both of those with the closed hand.

The top one is inner forearm outward, the bottom one outer forearm outward - both of those would be mid section as pictured.

Well, that's if they're travelling in an outward direction.

AFAIK, we don't have anything called an "outside block" - we undoubtedly have the technique, but not so named.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> Yeah, there are more ways to break it down from there.  But at least you'd have a consistent direction!
> 
> One thing a former student of my school was complaining about is that at her new school, an "outside block" is done with the palm out, while at our school an "outside block" is done with the palm in.
> 
> ...


I teach both of those as the "outside block". And I teach the knife-hand block as "one hand block", just to be crystal clear.


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## dvcochran (Jul 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I teach both of those as the "outside block". And I teach the knife-hand block as "one hand block", just to be crystal clear.


Son Kal Maki - Knife-hand block or Hon for one handed block.


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## dvcochran (Jul 22, 2018)

pdg said:


> We do both of those with the closed hand.
> 
> The top one is inner forearm outward, the bottom one outer forearm outward - both of those would be mid section as pictured.
> 
> ...


I guess I am too simple minded. We look at it with the blocking palm up, (closed hand); if you block with the inside of the forearm it is an inside block, likewise, if you block with the outside of the forearm it is an outside block. An open hand block is named as such. There is a KKW form with a very slow outside motion with the palm out but I can't remember which one at the moment.


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## pdg (Jul 22, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I guess I am too simple minded. We look at it with the blocking palm up, (closed hand); if you block with the inside of the forearm it is an inside block, likewise, if you block with the outside of the forearm it is an outside block. An open hand block is named as such. There is a KKW form with a very slow outside motion with the palm out but I can't remember which one at the moment.



But if I use my outer forearm I can block in an inward or outward direction. They can't both be outside blocks, surely?

And an open hand block - well, I can do a knifehand or a palm block inward or outward, or rising (upward) or pressing (downward) or pushing (forward), or say an upset palm (low to mid section, palm up - really more of a catch but termed as a block). I can't see the logic in lumping them all under one name... Unless you do have different names that all include the term "open hand"?


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 23, 2018)

skribs said:


> I think one thing I might change is the terminology.  Instead of "inside" and "outside" I would use "inward" and "outward."



Chang Hon uses both "xxxwrd"   refers to direction of travel i.e. Inward   left arm moving from left shoulder line toward center line   and outward moving the opposite way. "xxxisde"   refers to where in relation to opponents body the block mkes contact.  i.e. opponent in front of you right arm extended palm down.  Contacting on the side of the arm closes to their center line is inside. Other side is outside.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I just can't picture what an inner forearm outward block is. It seems it would require a dislocation.



The thumb side of the arm is inner forearm. Small finger side is outer forearm.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2018)

Earl Weiss said:


> The thumb side of the arm is inner forearm. Small finger side is outer forearm.


Ah! I call the soft part of the forearm (palm-side) the "inside" or "inner". It makes much more sense with your definition. So my "outer block" (high closed-hand block to the outside of the shoulder) is both "inner block" and "outer block" to you, since I allow it both palm-in and palm-out.


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## pdg (Jul 23, 2018)

Well, I now have part of my "Monday night question time" sorted 

I was happy with my interpretation of inner/outer/inward/outward - but @Earl Weiss has now added inside and outside which I now must research as to whether our ITF branch uses the same nomenclature...


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> Well, I now have part of my "Monday night question time" sorted
> 
> I was happy with my interpretation of inner/outer/inward/outward - but @Earl Weiss has now added inside and outside which I now must research as to whether our ITF branch uses the same nomenclature...


If you're like me, two or three hours of research should be sufficient to answer any relatively unimportant question.


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## pdg (Jul 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> If you're like me, two or three hours of research should be sufficient to answer any relatively unimportant question.



Oh I'll look, but I've got this kind of tradition going.

After class on Monday I approach my instructors with a (/ a list of) questions.

I usually have something like "I found xyz info/technique/application, what is our system's take on it?"

It's quite entertaining


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> Oh I'll look, but I've got this kind of tradition going.
> 
> After class on Monday I approach my instructors with a (/ a list of) questions.
> 
> ...


After class? Heck, if any of my students ever did that, they'd be late getting home. I love stuff like that.


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## pdg (Jul 23, 2018)

I'm usually late getting home - generally the only time I'm not the last to leave is when I don't turn up...


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Ah! I call the soft part of the forearm (palm-side) the "inside" or "inner". It makes much more sense with your definition. So my "outer block" (high closed-hand block to the outside of the shoulder) is both "inner block" and "outer block" to you, since I allow it both palm-in and palm-out.


  FWIW in the Chang Hon system the palm side of the forearm is "Under forearm"  and the knuckle side is the "Back Forearm".


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> Well, I now have part of my "Monday night question time" sorted
> 
> I was happy with my interpretation of inner/outer/inward/outward - but @Earl Weiss has now added inside and outside which I now must research as to whether our ITF branch uses the same nomenclature...


The terminology is from General Choi's text.  I think I saw an article on this in Totally TKD  called "Can You talk TKD?"   if you PM me with your e-mail I will send you a copy.   For General Choi, things can get a little more interesting as to when he uses "Inward" in a name to designate technique stops at chest line.   You could have a block that moves inward but is called a " Front Block" to designate it stops at center / solar plexus line . (Vol III)


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> If you're like me, two or three hours of research should be sufficient to answer any relatively unimportant question.


If you follow general Choi's text and have access to hard copy or volume III    it's less than a 10 minute exercise to find these terms in that volume.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> whether our ITF branch uses the same nomenclature...



What branch would that be?


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## pdg (Jul 23, 2018)

Earl Weiss said:


> The terminology is from General Choi's text.  I think I saw an article on this in Totally TKD  called "Can You talk TKD?"   if you PM me with your e-mail I will send you a copy.   For General Choi, things can get a little more interesting as to when he uses "Inward" in a name to designate technique stops at chest line.   You could have a block that moves inward but is called a " Front Block" to designate it stops at center / solar plexus line . (Vol III)



I found the references in the edition of the encyclopaedia I have, but it's an old edition and some things I've tried to research before have been changed or superceded in more recent editions - and also reinterpreted...

This means I usually have the personal need to seek clarification from my seniors so I can get the current info as well as the historical aspect - both of which interest me.

I'll send you a pm, as I'm definitely interested.



Earl Weiss said:


> What branch would that be?



Directly (at least I believe directly), UKITF.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2018)

Earl Weiss said:


> If you follow general Choi's text and have access to hard copy or volume III    it's less than a 10 minute exercise to find these terms in that volume.


That's not nearly enough time to spend on such an insignificant issue. Clearly, I'd need to read four Wikipedia articles, watch a half dozen videos about Wing Chun (why? I don't know - they show up when I look at TKD videos sometimes), and start a new thread on MT.


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## dvcochran (Jul 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> But if I use my outer forearm I can block in an inward or outward direction. They can't both be outside blocks, surely?
> 
> And an open hand block - well, I can do a knifehand or a palm block inward or outward, or rising (upward) or pressing (downward) or pushing (forward), or say an upset palm (low to mid section, palm up - really more of a catch but termed as a block). I can't see the logic in lumping them all under one name... Unless you do have different names that all include the term "open hand"?


Why can't they? The motion of the arm is to the outside, regardless of the hand position. You don't use the exclusively the hand to block with anyway (closed hand) so hand position is not as important as arm motion. Same is true for an open hand, whatever, that is the position or condition of the hand, it has nothing to do with the arm motion. IMHO. I suppose I can see some conflict with open hand blocks, but a high or rising block is so named because of the motion of the arm same is true for a down or low block.


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## dvcochran (Jul 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> But if I use my outer forearm I can block in an inward or outward direction. They can't both be outside blocks, surely?
> 
> And an open hand block - well, I can do a knifehand or a palm block inward or outward, or rising (upward) or pressing (downward) or pushing (forward), or say an upset palm (low to mid section, palm up - really more of a catch but termed as a block). I can't see the logic in lumping them all under one name... Unless you do have different names that all include the term "open hand"?


Yes, there is, to the best of my knowledge, a unique name for each block. In generic sections maybe? There are many flavors of high, low, middle, inside, and outside blocks among other (palm, pressing, etc...). And some I am sure I am forgetting.
When you teach/learn your first form what do you call the first learned block?


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## pdg (Jul 23, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Why can't they? The motion of the arm is to the outside, regardless of the hand position.



The point is, that it's not.

With an outward block, the arm moves from around the centreline to or slightly past the shoulder line.

With an inward block, the arm moves from outside the shoulder line in towards the centreline.

So, an inward block moves inward, an outward block moves outward, a downward block moves downward and a rising block moves upward.

The hand is unimportant, except that the orientation of the hand dictates whether the inner or outer forearm is being used. Or if the blocking tool is the hand.

That said, I did confirm that I can in fact use the terminology "outer forearm inward outside block" perfectly legitimately, or "inner forearm outward inside block"


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## dvcochran (Jul 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> The point is, that it's not.
> 
> With an outward block, the arm moves from around the centreline to or slightly past the shoulder line.
> 
> ...


My simple mind again. We are saying much the  same thing(s) until you get to the 5 word, multi-adjective vernacular using conflicting terms. "Outer, outside, inside all in the same block description? It took me a while to get in step with inside to outside and vice-versa. Do you do the outer forearm Outward outside block (closed hand) often? I have been trying to think of where we use them and can only think of a higher BB form done very slow and as a  SD move I suppose. It is much to do with repetition in action and in word so it is whatever a person gets used to hearing.


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## pdg (Jul 23, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> When you teach/learn your first form what do you call the first learned block?



The first block generally taught is a low block.

More accurately, it's a low section outer forearm outward block.

This can be an inside block or an outside block, but I don't know which until I know what it's being used against and in which orientation.

Say I'm using my right arm against my opponent doing a snap kick with his right leg - that would now be a low section obverse outer forearm outward outside block.

My right arm against his left leg? Low section obverse outer forearm outward inside block.

But, the "obverse" bit depends on the stance. If I have my right leg forward in walking stance it's obverse (initially, pretty much everything it taught obverse). If I have my right leg forward in L stance, using my right arm makes it a reverse technique (so, low section reverse outer forearm outward outside/inside block).

Simple eh?


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## pdg (Jul 23, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Do you do the outer forearm Outward outside block (closed hand) often?



Well, the low block is generally done as outer forearm outward block with a closed fist - unless it's a knifehand technique.

There's a high section obverse outward outer forearm front side block in Do-San, again in Yul-gok, and a couple of instances in higher patterns (but I'd have to look those up as I'm not at that level yet).

Those can't be classified as inside or outside though, because they're not being performed against anything.

The front arm in a forearm guarding block is doing pretty much the same thing too.

I think it's safe to say that in my class, I do these blocks as an outside technique more than anyone else, where it's used in set step sparring it's generally done as inside, mostly...


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## dvcochran (Jul 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> The first block generally taught is a low block.
> 
> More accurately, it's a low section outer forearm outward block.
> 
> ...


Clear as mud. So even though you are using your front arm in the L stance block you call it a reverse technique? I have never heard that one.


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## pdg (Jul 23, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Clear as mud. So even though you are using your front arm in the L stance block you call it a reverse technique? I have never heard that one.



In L stance, the majority of the weight (75%) is on the rear leg.

So, left leg forward means it's a right L stance.

Because it's a right stance, (almost) anything done with the left arm (front arm) is a reverse technique.

In walking stance, the weight distribution is equal so the stance is handed by the front leg. Left leg forward means a technique done with the left hand is an obverse technique.

To add to the fun, fixed stance is like L stance but one foot length longer with equal weight distribution, so it's also handed by the lead leg.

It's great - the look of confusion if you tell someone you want an obverse block in walking stance followed by a reverse punch in L stance followed by, say, an obverse backfist in fixed stance (without stepping, just repositioning the feet slightly). 

The amount of "Jackie Chan face" when you tell them afterwards it's supposed to be all done with the same hand 



Then of course you have reverse kicks, which are something else entirely.


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## dvcochran (Jul 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> In L stance, the majority of the weight (75%) is on the rear leg.
> 
> So, left leg forward means it's a right L stance.
> 
> ...


I would be interested to hear other peoples interpretation of this. In 30+ years I have never heard of any front hand technique being called a reverse. I very much like the KISS principal. It is hard enough to get someone to perform a technique correctly without worrying about an overly elaborate name.


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## pdg (Jul 23, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I would be interested to hear other peoples interpretation of this. In 30+ years I have never heard of any front hand technique being called a reverse. I very much like the KISS principal. It is hard enough to get someone to perform a technique correctly without worrying about an overly elaborate name.



There was a discussion about the obverse / reverse thing a while back, I'll see if I can find it.

What you think of as overly elaborate I think of as increased descriptiveness.

To me, it means that if I want someone to do a specific technique (or someone wants me to do it) the name fully describes what's expected.

Now do it in Korean...


And this is why when, in class, the instructor says to do a low block then asks "what is it in Korean?" they never pick me to answer. Most other people will say "najunde makgi", or rarely "najunde bakat palmok makgi". Only me, with my OCD level of sadness would contemplate responding with "wen gunnan so najunde baro bakuro bakat palmok makgi" - and then I might point out that I'm unsure if  that's entirely grammatically correct 


(My mum always said I was special...)


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## pdg (Jul 23, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I would be interested to hear other peoples interpretation of this. In 30+ years I have never heard of any front hand technique being called a reverse.



I said I'd find it

Breaking down the spinning wheel kick


----------



## TSDTexan (Jul 24, 2018)

Manny said:


> Right now if you could change a thing or a number of things on TKD what would you change?
> 
> Manny


1.
I would branch out a Sub TKD branch that did full contact sparing and competition.

Like Kyokushin.
A style of stand-up, full contact karate, founded in 1964 by Korean-Japanese Masutatsu Oyama.

 Since we are asking for wishes.... and impossible things...

2.
That the Koreans would look past the ultranationalist PR and historical revisionism that has truncated TKD from its Okinawan upstream source.
2b.
The Koreans would send a delegation to Okinawa and train there and restore the lost (at least in transmission to Korea) bunkai, Uchinadi tegumi drills, and Kubudo training to Korean Hongsoodo/Tangsoodo.

3.
Hand strikes get counted, or count higher in WTF Tournament rules, by the WTF Standards Body.

4.
That the KKW would recognize Tangsoodo formally as a parallel branch (parallel to TKD) in the KKW.

Codify a tsd based course, and certify it as KKW TSD.

Allow TSD folks a route besides becoming a Subakdo Subsidiary of a corporation that likes to sue you for citing that your art was created by GM Hwang Kee at his Moo Duk Institute.

5.
Reconciliation between ITF and WTF&KKW in exactly the same way the KKW would recognize TSD.

Another way of saying of creating a branch under the KKW umbrella that recognizes the ITF curriculum, and bring ITF GMs in house to supervise the master instructor courses, and ITF curriculum.

6. 
A KKW non sport SD curriculum that draws something from All Korean HSD, TSD, TKD branches
but taught in a non traditional format... like Krav Maga. Almost 90% Hosinsul, weapon defenses and weapons training. Something that isn't all flashy kicks that is quick to deploy. 


That's a start.


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## TSDTexan (Jul 24, 2018)

skribs said:


> With a strike, the payload you are moving is the hand.  With the block, the payload you are moving is the forearm.  This is because it is a lot easier to hit a relatively still target like the neck, than a rapidly moving target like a punch.
> 
> If I do the block like a strike, then I've significantly increased the margin for error, as I have to exactly hit their arm with my hand, or I fail to block and their attack lands.  Instead, I make my forearm, elbow, and knifehand into one large bar that I use to deflect the strike.  If I'm 6 inches high or low, I will still block the strike.  If it's just my hand, or if everything is level, then I need to be within an inch to be successful.
> 
> ...




Just to muddy the waters even further, you can enter on the 45°  sidestepping the attack, and strike with the radius instead of the ridgehand. It's a very thick bone.... Or strike with the ulna instead of the shuto uchi or hammerfist. Of course... This is very intimate range fighting... closer than punching but not within the clinch.


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## TSDTexan (Jul 24, 2018)

pdg said:


> 1.
> That to me is a knifehand - the 'tool' is the side of your open hand, from little finger (pinky?) to wrist.
> 2.
> A reverse knifehand is from index finger to wrist with you thumb tucked out of the way (is that ridge hand to others?)
> ...



in karate number one is a Shuto Uchi, knifehand strike or Sonnal Chigi or Sudo in Korean. can be palm up..



 
 or 
palm down.


 

number two is a Haito Uchi, or ridge hand or in korean Sonnaldeung Bakkat Chigi or Yeogsudo


 

number three is a Nukite Uchi spearhand or Gwansu


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## TSDTexan (Jul 24, 2018)

pdg said:


> But if I use my outer forearm I can block in an inward or outward direction. They can't both be outside blocks, surely?
> 
> And an open hand block - well, I can do a knifehand or a palm block inward or outward, or rising (upward) or pressing (downward) or pushing (forward), or say an upset palm (low to mid section, palm up - really more of a catch but termed as a block). I can't see the logic in lumping them all under one name... Unless you do have different names that all include the term "open hand"?



It's an outside block if crossed the centerline to end, in front of, the sholder the blocking arm is attached to. Wrist direction doesn't matter.
in the first gif... the closed fisted arm is doing a Uchi Uke... outside block.



 
wrist facing away (as seen in NahaTe, mawashi uke)


 


It is an inside block, if it starts outside, stops directly in front of, or crosses the centerline in the direction of the other arm.

Such as the open palmed arm... in this one. Soto Uke.



 

When you perform the Uchi Uke simultaneously with the Soto Uke... you perform a pass parry, and open a gate on your opponent.


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## pdg (Jul 24, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> in karate number one is a Shuto Uchi, knifehand strike or Sonnal Chigi or Sudo in Korean. can be palm up..
> View attachment 21627
> or
> palm down.
> ...



And this shows direct translations to and from Korean aren't always consistent...

No.1, knifehand strike - sonkal taerigi.

No.2, ridgehand strike - sonkaldeung taerigi.

No.3, spearhand - straight fingertip thrust - sun sonkut tulgi.


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## pdg (Jul 24, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> It's an outside block if crossed the centerline to end, in front of, the sholder the blocking arm is attached to. Wrist direction doesn't matter.
> in the first gif... the closed fisted arm is doing a Uchi Uke... outside block.
> 
> View attachment 21629
> ...



To me, all 3 of those GIFs are showing an outward block.

I can't say if they're inside or outside without knowing what they are blocking.


Edit: wrist direction only matters to describe the part of the arm used for blocking, whether it's inner or outer forearm.

The first gif is an inner forearm outward block.

The second would be an outer forearm outward block, if the hand was closed to suggest the arm is the tool.

As the hand is open, that suggests it's either a knifehand or palm block, where again the wrist direction only matters because it physically has to follow what the hand is doing.


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## TSDTexan (Jul 24, 2018)

pdg said:


> To me, all 3 of those GIFs are showing an outward block.
> 
> I can't say if they're inside or outside without knowing what they are blocking.
> 
> ...



In the second, it is a forearm block, with the hand ready to grab and pull, or to strike up the same line... see the first video opening around the 07 second mark.
pay attention to the left hand. 





Here is the same block being combined with Makiwara striking. In the beginning of this video.





In the third...
it's a palm block, that redirects and incoming strike, into position for the outside block to windshield wiper it all the way offline.


inside block
The starting position is the same arm, same side moving and clearing the center, to end across the body.

If the right arm is starting on the right side of the it will cross over, ending on the left side.

If the left arm is starting on the left side of the it will cross over, ending on the right side.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 24, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> "Outer, outside, inside all in the same block description? It took me a while to get in step with inside to outside and vice-versa. Do you do the outer forearm Outward outside block (closed hand) often?


As with many things in MA the terms are defined within the system and do not necessarily cross over to other systems let alone other languages. 

General Choi defines terms thusly for arm blocks.  (If you don't use his system or don't care you may want to stop reading now. )

1. Outer - Refers to part of forearm making contact.   Small finger side of arm. 
2. Outward - Direction of travel* (From center line toward shoulder line.)
3. Outside - Can only be determined in relation to where opponent is blocked. Without opponent present can not be determined. Position  Example: Opponent facing you right foot forward right hand extended  palm down in a punch at your shoulder level .  You step right foot forward right arm moves outward and your outer forearm contacts the  Small finger side of their arm.   You are to the outside of them and this is an outside block.*
* Note, terminology is further refined so that half and side facing techniques are denoted as "Side"  So the direction of arm travel is not necessarily used in the formal block name.  The block described in # 3 above is done half facing and is technically named a "Side Block" with outer forearm.  Direction of travel - outward is simply a characteristic used to describe it.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 24, 2018)

pdg said:


> But, the "obverse" bit depends on the stance. If I have my right leg forward in walking stance it's obverse (initially, pretty much everything it taught obverse). If I have my right leg forward in L stance, using my right arm makes it a reverse technique (so, low section reverse outer forearm outward outside/inside block).
> 
> Simple eh?



This is due to the naming convention for stances (One of the things General Choi could have done better but I heard it stems from translation issues) 
Stances are named for the lead leg when weight distribution is equal and for the leg with the most weight when unequal. Since L stance has more weight on the rear leg it is named for the rear leg. So, using a limb that is on the side not named for the stance is a "reverse" technique.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 24, 2018)

pdg said:


> In L stance, the majority of the weight (75%) is on the rear leg.
> 
> .


70%   but whose gonna measure


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## pdg (Jul 24, 2018)

Earl Weiss said:


> 70%   but whose gonna measure



Looks like I'm getting the bathroom scales out again 



Edit: I knew it was 70/30, but sometimes even I make mistakes 

Also, measuring it - technically you'd have to slightly alter your stance position to maintain 70/30 when doing a reverse punch as opposed to a reverse inward knifehand, because I'm quite sure the difference in arm position could throw the balance off by at least 5%...


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## pdg (Jul 24, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> In the second, it is a forearm block, with the hand ready to grab and pull



Which is almost what 'we' would term a hooking block.



TSDTexan said:


> In the third...
> it's a palm block, that redirects and incoming strike, into position for the outside block to windshield wiper it all the way offline.



I'll be entirely honest, I didn't notice the palm move was part one 

So in that case, it would make it an inward palm block and outward inner forearm block combination in 'our' terms.



TSDTexan said:


> inside block
> The starting position is the same arm, same side moving and clearing the center, to end across the body.
> 
> If the right arm is starting on the right side of the it will cross over, ending on the left side.
> ...



And this is where my point lies...

Both of those are inward blocks (they start on the side of the arm being used, and travel inward toward or past centre).

Whether they are inside or outside depends upon how you are countering your opponent's move, and with no opponent present can only be classified as inside or outside in an imaginary context (I'm pretending my invisible opponent is throwing a right hand punch, so I'll use my left arm to perform an inward outer forearm outside block, or my right arm to perform an inward outer forearm inside block).


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## pdg (Jul 24, 2018)

Earl Weiss said:


> This is due to the naming convention for stances (One of the things General Choi could have done better but I heard it stems from translation issues)
> Stances are named for the lead leg when weight distribution is equal and for the leg with the most weight when unequal. Since L stance has more weight on the rear leg it is named for the rear leg. So, using a limb that is on the side not named for the stance is a "reverse" technique.



Whether or not translation problems were a factor I'm not sure "better" is the actual term I'd use. Just different. Possibly easier to translate to other arts.

Sure, it's initially confusing to some but once you understand the formula and how to apply it becomes extremely descriptive and very consistent.

Well, until you try explaining it to someone used to using a different formula...


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## pdg (Jul 24, 2018)

@TSDTexan - what did you dislike about this post?

I'm not uppity, just curious as to why you disliked me explaining where the terminology differs...



pdg said:


> Which is almost what 'we' would term a hooking block.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## TSDTexan (Jul 24, 2018)

pdg said:


> @TSDTexan - what did you dislike about this post?
> 
> I'm not uppity, just curious as to why you disliked me explaining where the terminology differs...



I do that sometimes on my phone, it's a thing.
Martialtalk buttons have misrepresented my likes as dislikes, a number of times, over the years.

It was not a dislike! it was a like. My ape fat fingers vs tiny little buttons.

Reposting this related image.





I prefer my laptop. (new image to this subject)


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## pdg (Jul 24, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> I do that sometimes on my phone, it's a thing.
> Martialtalk buttons have misrepresented my likes as dislikes, a number of times, over the years.
> 
> It was not a dislike! it was a like. My ape fat fingers vs tiny little buttons.



Ah, I've hit any number of ratings when scrolling on my phone 

I did think that maybe I'd worded the post so that you interpreted it as me trying to "correct your wrong terminology" or something!


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## dvcochran (Jul 24, 2018)

pdg said:


> I said I'd find it
> 
> Breaking down the spinning wheel kick


???


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## dvcochran (Jul 24, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> 1.
> I would branch out a Sub TKD branch that did full contact sparing and competition.
> 
> Like Kyokushin.
> ...



I think 2 & 2b are ridicules. You be controlled by a "communist" government for decades and see how you feel. TKD evolved from much more than just Okinawa. 
3 will never happen at least partly because of the strong intent to be different form boxing. Scoring has changed over the years. 
4 is a great idea I have advocated for often. 
5 The fracture started with the ITF. With the success and differences of both systems I have a hard time seeing it happen.
6 I think a lot of it is the responsibility of the instructor(s) to offer a broad range of skills. I do think a purely WTF school lacks a lot and is a poor representation of TKD from my perspective.


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## pdg (Jul 24, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I would be interested to hear other peoples interpretation of this. In 30+ years I have never heard of any front hand technique being called a reverse. I very





pdg said:


> I said I'd find it
> 
> Breaking down the spinning wheel kick





dvcochran said:


> ???



You and I had a very similar discussion in the thread I linked.


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## dvcochran (Jul 24, 2018)

pdg said:


> You and I had a very similar discussion in the thread I linked.


Well, there was a lot of semantics back and forth but my post was about kicks and yours about blocks.


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## pdg (Jul 24, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> The fracture started with the ITF.



That is a hotly contested viewpoint and one that is hard to substantiate when you take into consideration that the ITF predates the kukkiwon by a number of years.

How can one organisation (the ITF) be responsible for "the split" when the organisation it supposedly split from (the KKW) was created in direct competition and because of political and idealogical differences?

One could say in fact that the government of the time liked the idea of a national martial art, liked the name and liked the showmanship but didn't support the desire of that organisation's founder to promote full reconciliation between the north and south...


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## TSDTexan (Jul 24, 2018)

pdg said:


> That is a hotly contested viewpoint and one that is hard to substantiate when you take into consideration that the ITF predates the kukkiwon by a number of years.
> 
> How can one organisation (the ITF) be responsible for "the split" when the organisation it supposedly split from (the KKW) was created in direct competition and because of political and idealogical differences?
> 
> One could say in fact that the government of the time liked the idea of a national martial art, liked the name and liked the showmanship but didn't support the desire of that organisation's founder to promote full reconciliation between the north and south...



Ahhh... the sad squabbling of the Kwans, and the ultranationalist Government and ultraconformist citizens.... and the Korean war...

The truth about who split from who.... is boring, and short sided.

Hwang Kee did well to run away from that nonsense after a while. Too bad the family business is more important than keeping your word to people. No disrespect to a great man, RIP.

Not to be accused of racism... because I dearly love a fair number of Korean individuals. They are a beautiful people, with a great culture.... 

But there exists a category of insanity unlike anything on planet earth when it comes to The Politics of Korean Martial Arts.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 25, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> But there exists a category of insanity unlike anything on planet earth when it comes to The Politics of Korean Martial Arts.



Perhaps because of it's mother country and it's politics. I think those of us who grow up in a country like the USA   have a hard time identifying with what it must have been like to be in a country that was occupied and controlled by various powers, was split in two, had military coups and Presidents who were jailed.


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## TSDTexan (Jul 25, 2018)

Earl Weiss said:


> Perhaps because of it's mother country and it's politics. I think those of us who grow up in a country like the USA   have a hard time identifying with what it must have been like to be in a country that was occupied and controlled by various powers, was split in two, had military coups and Presidents who were jailed.




Yeah, you may have a point there.


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