# How long before you train with a "real" blade?



## Lisa (Mar 9, 2006)

For those of you who train in knife defence/offence, how long after you started training do you train with a real blade?


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## Jonathan Randall (Mar 9, 2006)

Lisa said:
			
		

> For those of you who train in knife defence/offence, how long after you started training do you train with a real blade?


 
Good question, but it depends upon whether you mean solo or paired work. While my own training was minimal compared to most on this forum, my instructor would have smacked us silly if we had even thought of doing paired work with a real blade. For solo work, he encouraged it (but not for minors!); preferrably with the blade you would most like have quick access to.


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## Lisa (Mar 9, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Good question, but it depends upon whether you mean solo or paired work. While my own training was minimal compared to most on this forum, my instructor would have smacked us silly if we had even thought of doing paired work with a real blade. For solo work, he encouraged it (but not for minors!); preferrably with the blade you would most like have quick access to.



Good point about the solo work or paired.  I was thinking more along the lines of paired work and how that would work without hurting each other but either is important.  Thanks for pointing it out.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 9, 2006)

When I first started looking at knife work I had to bring a "live" blade in and cut and stab with it against a target.  

We NEVER use a live blade in 2 person drills.​


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## Peter Steeves (Mar 10, 2006)

I've done live blade training with pair work in the past, and I am better now than I was then, even though I haven't done that in a long time.

I think/hope that if your training is intense in the right ways, you'll know when you got "cut" or "stabbed" with your partner's training knife and that is enough to sober you up to the reality of it, without sending you to the emergency room.

I agree with the earlier post that using a real blade on your own is good to do. I certainly do plenty of sword work with live blades on my own, but wouldn't even think of it with a partner.

Train hard enough, and even the unarmed techniques are scary. You don't need to introduce tools to get hurt even more to keep you on your game, I believe.

And, I don't believe anybody would want to do gun disarm practice against a loaded gun. Any other weapon is still meant to do a lot of harm, even though not quite as obviously. So, let's treat our lives, and our partner's lives and well being with that kind of thinking.


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## KenpoTex (Mar 10, 2006)

I use a live blade almost exclusively for solo training but NEVER with a partner.  I know opinions vary somewhat but I don't personally feel that use of a live blade in partner drills is any more beneficial than training with a metal/wood/hard-plastic trainer.  Really I think it's somewhat negligent.  I don't need to train gun-disarms with a live weapon (airsoft is just fine tyvm) to convince me of how bad it would be to get shot.  The same goes for knife work.

just my $0.02


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## green man (Mar 11, 2006)

A friend and I practiced knife techniques as part of our training in several martial arts. One day I showed up for class and he was running through knife takeaways with another friend...with his K-bar. I was actually a little freaked out but he was totally confident and he relaxed the hell out of me, so while friend #2 took a break, I practiced a couple techniques with him.

2 minutes later, we were both bleeding.

:uhyeah:

To this day I don't put on my red T-shirt without thinking about how wet it got before the blood stopped. And this was all *before* our class. I had to keep explaining to my other practice partners why one arm of my gi was red.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 11, 2006)

We introduce live blades at the advanced level.  We only do solo forms and tameshigiri...never partner drills.  People need to realize that even small cuts to the right areas can be devestating and with a sharp knife, it's easy to do that.  Mistakes happen in training (that's why it's called training), so its best to give yourself some margin for error.


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## bydand (Mar 12, 2006)

I voted never, based on training with a partner.  Alone, I have yet to see a "Live" blade in the training facility, but outside where there is more room, I have seen a couple instructors showing students some finer points with a real blade, but that was not during a "regular" class.  I think it all comes down to the whole safety and liability issue.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 12, 2006)

The first day my instructor ever taught me any knife work it was with a live blade.  I don't teach that way but I must admit I learned to respet the blade fast.  I have been cut enough time to not let my students use a live blade until they reach a high lvel of training


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## stickarts (Mar 12, 2006)

i trained with a live blade about one year after using wooden training knives, but it was only with my instructor and in a very controlled manner!!!! It was a reality check.


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## mrhnau (Mar 13, 2006)

our group used to use live blades. we changed locations and are working in a gym that would not smile upon their use! Kind of wish we could, at least I'd like to practice w/ them...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 30, 2006)

Live blade solo drill's are okay once you are very advanced but I would stay away from working with partner's with live blades, to much chance for something to go wrong! (Murphy's law)  Even a skilled person such as Bram Frank and other's have been severly hurt by using live blades while working out with partner's.  What is the point.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## mrhnau (Mar 30, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Live blade solo drill's are okay once you are very advanced but I would stay away from working with partner's with live blades, to much chance for something to go wrong! (Murphy's law)  Even a skilled person such as Bram Frank and other's have been severly hurt by using live blades while working out with partner's.  What is the point.



Well, I'll observe one... the other day we were doing a little bit of light sparring with practice wooden knives. we both wound up getting "cut" a good bit. I found myself wondering... would I have taken some of the same risks if the blades had been live? How does one decouple the inherent fear of being cut or dying from the training "safe environment"?

I'm not saying that you should throw live blades at your white belts, but it might help at higher levels to add a bit more realism... then again, I guess training will always training, you can't really go full force with blades w/out risking someones life...

:idunno:


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## Cruentus (Mar 30, 2006)

I wrote an article on this very subject, and Bob has been kind enough to post it. I think that you will find it relevent to this discussion:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29643&highlight=blade

As to "when" to start training live blade? I would say that one can start as soon as one is aware of the safety concerns. So, almost immediately.

Paul


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## SFC JeffJ (Mar 30, 2006)

Nice article.  Said pretty much what I think on the subject, but better.

Jeff


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## Flatlander (Mar 30, 2006)

I'd never train live.  The reason is, my inherent aversion to cutting someone unwittingly.  I see no reason to train _not_ to cut someone, which I'd need to do if the blades were live.

But, I do go live solo.  I'll take responsibility for how my body moves when I'm alone.  I think the purest form of edge awareness is borne out of moving with a live blade in your hand.  Because in the back of your mind, you always know whether it's live or not.  Things become more serious.

It's critical to begin slowly.  Heed this or learn the hard way.


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## KenpoTex (Mar 31, 2006)

Great article Paul.


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## Cruentus (Mar 31, 2006)

Thanks everyone...

Paul


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## bushidomartialarts (Apr 1, 2006)

never in partner work.  as soon as one feels comfortable for practice drills and kata.


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## Drac (Apr 1, 2006)

Never...I think that would be inviting SERIOUS trouble..The aluminum trainers available look and feel like the real thing..


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