# Muay Chaiya, Muay Boran



## Ianchaiya

I've recently started training in Muay Chaiya here in BKK, Thailand. Anyone else out there practised this form before?


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## Fede

You should check this conversation and ask around, as you are in Bangkok you should get different opinions. 
Personally, I would drop it and find a muay thai camp.
http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/thaiboxing-kickboxing/36008-chaiya-grape-kool-aid.html


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## Ianchaiya

i personally find that quite insulting and shows a rather limited understanding and most definitely a lack of actually chaiya experience. what hes ranting about seems to be muay boran, which is nowadays being taught as a system in itself rather than the umbrella term much like 'kung fu'. and if that is the case, i share the frustration cos muay chaiya is muay boran but in the sense that its an old fighting style, not muay boran as a system of fighting (which as i said is modern creation and damaging to actually muay boran).

 u say personally, but have u trained with kru mud, kru lek or kru praeng in bkk? none of them will say its better than muaythai. muaythai is ring sport, muay chaiya is a martial art developed in and for use in war. and yes no one fights with it, cos no one has yet to train is such a way as to be able to use it. ignorance and inexperiece and keyboard warriors are the enemy of martial arts such as chaiya, which is almost lost. we should be celebrating and bringing it back. its not ring sport and shouldnt be compared to one.

come train with kru mud, if u hate it and think it sucks, so be it. at least give something a go before u knock it. i think tkd has very limited real life application. i would never. i do however see the benefits it has and my gf is a black belt in tkd. its not for me but i appreciate it.

god people like frustrate me, and they should anyone who repects martial arts for what they are.

before i am accused of being part of the cult, i like muay thai, but the purely hard style lack of martial aspects left me seeking more. so far chaiya has been filling the gap mauy thai couldnt fill. also there are loads of rubbish muaythai 'teachers' out there. chaiya has only 3 certified teachers in the WORLD. now that's quality control.

forgive my frustration.


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## Fede

I would like to know who the three certified Chaiya teachers are and by whom they were certified.
There are way more teachers than the three you mentioned, most of whom trained with kru Tong who passed away without naming successors. So again I would like who these three teachers are, if possible. 
I have trained in Thailand on and off since 2005 and I heard all the stories from different people, believe me. 
I started training in Chaiya four years ago but I dropped it after a while because I could see only a limited use, and that coming from a boxing perspective because that was my background. 
I also met kru mud three years ago and he gave free lessons to promote his chaiya, then again
I saw the same empty drills practiced and their little function, so that was not what I was looking for.

Chaiya wasn't used in war or in the battlefield just as muay boran wasn't used. What was used in war were weapon systems and the hand to hand system directly derived from their use-which is still being investigated and researched to say how little is known or better, shown about it. Muay Chaiya is a system but it was created later after the war ended and techniques were added later, one after the other, so they don't spring from the battlefield. 

Muay Thai has a strong martial aspect, these guys train very hard all day, are humble and respectful towards the art and teachers. If that is not martial then what is? Then if there are loudmouths as you say-I am sure mostly from foreigners-then they are directly and quicly shut down.


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## Fede

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?95578-Monks-and-training


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## Ianchaiya

the three grandmasters are Kru Mud, Kru Lek and Kru Praeng. I guess your experience wasnt quite the same as mine then. though that doesnt warrent righting off the art completely. if i were to right off karate, tkd or another much more established art, i would get a hurl of abuse.

respect the art, if you are a true martial artist you would give it that much.


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## Ianchaiya

i invite u to come back and train for a bit, without any animosity, to see that chaiya isnt crap, just cos some other people say it is.

i came onto to this forum to discuss my art, not defend it.


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## Cyriacus

This reminds me of a Youtube Comment i read once.

"Aikido is like the Joke of the Martial Arts World."*

Now, i know its a singular example, but its a Subjective Conclusion.
You have a Bad Experience with a Martial Art, therefore you can barely help but be SOMEWHAT Biased against it, due to YOUR Experience.
That, or you, personally, Dislike it.

Then theres Branching. Practitioners of a Style who go and make their Own Variants, whilst carrying the very same name.
Muay Thai is actually a good example - Some places are closer to just being Striking Gyms with Sparring, as oppose to teaching any Ring-Style whatsoever.
Some Instructers emphasise Power over Speed, or take out the Power and gain Speed, or emphasise Cardio over Conditioning, or any Variation you choose.

The bottom line is, dont Generalise things.
Theres a chance you just have bad reference Material, which may well not be your fault.
And you dont have to Like the other Style. Your free to Dislike any Martial Art or Style.
But that doesnt need to make it a Bad Style.

Just my Contribution.

*You may be thinking, 'how is this relevant'?
Simple. This Individual thinks Aikido is a Joke, and has for a long time. A Couple of People Agree with him. He builds on that conclusion subconsciously over time, until he Generalises that Conclusion to encompass not only his Opinion, but a belief in the Inferiority of the Style.
It isnt the same as whats happened here, but its the same Cycle. Just different outcomes.


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## Ianchaiya

Thank you very much for that balanced and unbiased comment. i thought i was fighting my corner all on my own.

"The bottom line is, dont Generalise things.
Theres a chance you just have bad reference Material, which may well not be your fault.
And you dont have to Like the other Style. Your free to Dislike any Martial Art or Style.
But that doesnt need to make it a Bad Style."

I agree with that paragraphy completely. karate and tkd wasnt for me. but im not about to say they are based on lies and useless (not assuming anyone as said as much).

Thank you again, Cyriacus.


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## Fede

Good point Cyriacus but off topic.  I didn't bash muay chaiya per se, I just said that I tried it and draw my own conclusions from my own perspective. The style has a long history and as pointed out in the martialtalk link I shared it was tested in bareknuckle competitions. That was 100 years ago and more and things have changed. 

Karate and TKD (and their sub-styles) have solid lineage and those who teach are recognized and certified by their teachers and so on so it's easy to see the genealogy with authorizations and so on.
This said, if you are eager to discuss muay chaiya, Ianchaiya, it's fine for me. Because if you say that kru mud , kru praeng and kru lek are the only teachers authorized to teach muay chaiya in the world, then I would like to know who gave them that credential.

As far as respecting the arts you can be sure I do so, what I don't respect selfserving empty politics and false statements that give a bad name and reputation to the arts (and with this I am not talking about you).


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## Cyriacus

Fede said:


> Good point Cyriacus but off topic.  I didn't bash muay chaiya per se, I just said that I tried it and draw my own conclusions from my own perspective. The style has a long history and as pointed out in the martialtalk link I shared it was tested in bareknuckle competitions. That was 100 years ago and more and things have changed.
> 
> Karate and TKD (and their sub-styles) have solid lineage and those who teach are recognized and certified by their teachers and so on so it's easy to see the genealogy with authorizations and so on.
> This said, if you are eager to discuss muay chaiya, Ianchaiya, it's fine for me. Because if you say that kru mud , kru praeng and kru lek are the only teachers authorized to teach muay chaiya in the world, then I would like to know who gave them that credential.
> 
> As far as respecting the arts you can be sure I do so, what I don't respect selfserving empty politics and false statements that give a bad name and reputation to the arts (and with this I am not talking about you).


It isnt Off Topic at all, My Good Man.
You said youd Tried and Viewed it, and Didnt Like what you Found.
I was Clarifying that there are other Factors which could be Relevant to that Outcome.
Hence my Addendum at the End, that the Situations werent the Same - Just the Logic Chain Pertaining to the Opinion.
Theres also the Possibility that our other Gentleman here, has had a Good Experience with it, and that many other Outlets have Slid into Fault.

This is Perhaps Merely a Matter of the Way you Communicated your Idealogy - And if you Wanted, I could also Praise some of what you Stated.
Your Initial Response could be Interprited as somewhat Hostile, even if it wasnt Intended to be.

Perspective


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## Fede

Yes it was my own opinion, without bashing the whole style. This especially in light of the old teachers who who are still teaching it in silence and integrity. So I should have rather have said that from my perpective "the chaiya I tried wasn't good for what I was looking for and expected" and it still my opinion, but better phrased.


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## Cyriacus

Fede said:


> Yes it was my own opinion, without bashing the whole style. This especially in light of the old teachers who who are still teaching it in silence and integrity. So I should have rather have said that from my perpective "the chaiya I tried wasn't good for what I was looking for and expected" and it still my opinion, but better phrased.


Yes - It makes a far clearer point, since it doesnt come accross as an outright Negative.


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## destructautomaton

Its an opinion, an opinion can be what it is. If you read across the boards over years, you will see chaiya guys one after another digging a hole from themselves.  The negativity mostly from them towards others and over time it seems it bounced back against them. I think also ian just started chaiya as he said so it takes a time to understand the style and what he believes is wonderful is not wonderful to others.  you gotta have thick skin to do martial arts or else maybe tennis or something like that is better.
fede said he tried it and it didnt work for him ---how is that negative?its called honesty.


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## Cyriacus

destructautomaton said:


> Its an opinion, an opinion can be what it is. If you read across the boards over years, you will see chaiya guys one after another digging a hole from themselves.  The negativity mostly from them towards others and over time it seems it bounced back against them. I think also ian just started chaiya as he said so it takes a time to understand the style and what he believes is wonderful is not wonderful to others.  you gotta have thick skin to do martial arts or else maybe tennis or something like that is better.
> fede said he tried it and it didnt work for him ---how is that negative?its called honesty.


Its Perspective.
The First Response, and the way the Second was Conveyed, could be interprited in many ways. The First, for example, pretty much says, "Go Learn Muay Thai Instead". Now, 'I' know that perhaps isnt the Intention. Which was the whole point of my responses - To maintain a Civil Chat, without Misconveyances of Information


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## destructautomaton

so what? its an opinon.  If someone doesnt like chaiya, they dont like chaiya. I dont understand what you are saying or trying to push through here.


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## Cyriacus

destructautomaton said:


> so what? its an opinon.  If someone doesnt like chaiya, they dont like chaiya. I dont understand what you are saying or trying to push through here.


Im not trying to push anything through - The Gentleman Fede has Approved Fairly of what i was saying, and seems to see where i was coming from about how things might be interprited by others.
I dont see the Problem.

And i Specifically said, that you dont need to Like any given Style. Your free to Dislike any given Martial Art. Or Style.


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## destructautomaton

this forum is an excellent forum. there are some high level people on here so i dont get your policing of this thread comes from. I dont care for chaiya after training it in thailand but so what i dont like tons of things.


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## Ianchaiya

im brand new to these forums, as for digging holes for themselves, im not those chaiya practioners.

im me. and i came here to discuss my art with people who were open-minded and willing to discuss it with me. i cant be held at fault for others. maybe they themselves were ignorant. a lot of people who do a less well practised martial art such as jkd develop a bit of a chip on their shoulder (i know i did 8 years ago) but why hold me personally responsable for it? im not finding myself under attack for wanting to discuss chaiya which wasnt the aim of me joining these forums. i was hoping to generate interest. hate me and hate chaiya if it makes you feel better.


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## Jenna

I say stick with the forum and do not be perturbed.  I say appreciate that your opinions are as valid as the opinions of anyone else, and that others are as valid as yours.  

If you are happy yourself with Chaiya then that is the only important thing.  

I hope you can take just a little time Ianchaiya and see that nobody is directing any attack at you personally.  Likewise, it is up to you to decide whether to defend your style or not.  You are never forced to post a reply and yet you are always at liberty to state your opinion. As are others.

Personally, I would welcome hearing some of your training experiences shared.

Take care, Janna.


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## Fede

Well put, destructo and Jenna, nobody directed attacks at Ianchaiya and Chaiya yet the response was as if this is what had happened. It was only a personal opinion-a badly phrased one at first. I too would like a discussion on chaiya, that's why I asked who accredited kru praeng, kru lek and kru mat as the ONLY teachers allowed to teach Chaiya in the world. That's a pretty solid statement so there has to be solid proof for that.


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## Ianchaiya

i didnt mean to imply they were the only teacher ALLOWED to teach. anyone can teach what they want! but they are recognised as the only three masters who have direct lineage from the the founders and who teaches chaiya as it existed then, without alterations. others, such as the Muay Sangha school teach chaiya but its been altered quite a lot.

i may be wrong, but my thai sources confirm. they are the only three teachers who teach classic, unaltered, muay chaiya.

as for who accredited them, i will find out that info if it's vital. as for kru mud, he started muay boran (inc. weapon forms) when he was 13 with kru nakchai jimet whom he studied with for seven years. then he studied with kru tonglor for three years when he was about 20. he then studied with his uncle, kru saman meanpong for another three years. then for one year he studied with kru lek.

i got that info from the short bio he wrote. i can show it to you but its in thai.


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## Fede

Thanks for your reply.
My question remains the same, who appointed them as the sole three depositaries of Chaiya or the "real" Chaiya. You speak of direct lineage, yet I was told by more than one person that Kru Mud never learned with kru Tong. I know kru Tong had many students and I know who some of his direct students are, one of them personally. Also, kru Tong (or Tonglor) never named a successor, and that's also why Chaiya is such a mess nowadays with many claiming this and that privilege, but there is no tangible proof of their claims. And also there are students of the late kru Kehtr so as you can see the claim of the only three teachers doesn't stand.
I believe you asked your teacher, but with time you will hopefully meet other teachers or students and hear other people's opinions in Thailand. I am sorry but you were fed lies by a man who married kru Tong's niece and who therefore feels the right to claim what he claims with documents his wife inherited from kru Tong. Seek the truth from sources other than your teacher, hear other people's opinions since you have the chance not only to speak Thai but to read it and write it, that's a powerful tool when in Thailand. The fact that claims come from a teacher a kruu or an ajarn doesn't mean they are real, despite all the respect and honours they receive.


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## Fede

Thanks for wanting to post the bio you talked about even if it's in Thai, I cannot read it but I can have it translated so I can see what kru Mud says in detail.


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## destructautomaton

you are talking students of kru tong and mud was never heard of until recently, he didnt finish the system under tong from what i hear and finished it with others. praeng altered the system and lek too from what i hear.  tong died and left no successor wand i think thats covered here somewhere in threads, tongs teacher has studnets still alive and tongs brother teaches, so its a total distortion from what i am hearing from the three who fight childishly among themselves and have driven people away from chaiya because of their actions and their studnets actions.


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## destructautomaton

accredited means certified--all they have to do is produce certificates from the teacher--the bio doesnt matter its all talk all the time.  Produce a certificate or letter signed by kru tong is enough for most people.


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## Ianchaiya

what i say maybe be fed from lies i accept that (most thai history is based on misinformation, but then most history is). but what u said may be just the same. do u really know? have u spoke to any of the masters? or is your information from second-generation sourses like my own? we both speak and use evidence which neither of us can really really prove but what does that really matter?

kru mud knows his stuff and hes a very good teacher and has been very kind to me and helped me a lot. the argument about chaiya seems to be someone lying here and there but who cares? chaiya is a very interesting martial art which i am really enjoying learning. whether kru mud really learnt from kru tonglor doesnt matter to me. what i care about is learning. and he is teaching me. and he isnt teaching me something he just made up one day.


people seem to be missing the point. i hope you can see my point. i like chaiya. end of.

p.s, i've said this before, there are plenty of false karate, tkd, kung fu, muay thai teachers out there that teach pretty rubbish stuff. kru mud isnt teaching anything rubbish which can be seen from his students i see everyday. they know what they are doing and they are good at it. lies or no, they deserve respect.


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## Ianchaiya

another thing, you think old Chinese and Japanese masters never disagreed with each other in the early history of their styles? of course they did. chaiya is not young but it is only really recently coming back into the limelight.

most of us Westerners suffer from an orientalist view on the east, where everything is like the films. people fight, people disagree and its only by our opinion that they have soiled themselves in terms of reputation. the true spirit of chaiya is being taught here. most people who are really very good at the martial art they practise can teach not only the techniques but the spirit too.

i say again, untrue or not, kru mud (as well as the other masters) teach chaiya and they do it well. us westerners are far too blinded by our arrogance to accept simple truths like that, we need evidence for everything, and who is to say we are right?

i dont want to argue with you, you may disagree with what i am saying, but i really started this thread to talk about learning chaiya and other boran forms, not to nitpick about details that in the grand scheme of things, matter very little.


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## destructautomaton

Ian you have a very childish view of the martial arts and science and reality doesnt seem part of it.

You are saying these three men are the sole authorities of chaiya and all i said is that their master must have certified them like most masters in the world and producing that certificate or letter would quell the people that call them all liars. Ive been to thailand and heard this all and its mostly immature masters fighting amongst themselves then getting gullible people like yourself to mouth off for them. 

you havent talk anything about chaiya or boran techjniques only about this teacher and that teacher and how great the style is. so you are part of the blame here. i read your other threads as well as many threads from all the students of chaiya teachers and they are all terrible and very sad to read


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## Fede

I understand your point with karate and tkd teachers, and as l said in a previous post all the lineage of these arts and their derivates can be checked with signed documents. What about Chaiya, since you made those strong claims there as to be solid proof from the older teacher that is kru Tong, as destructo said. 
The info I have came just from asking questions people who know Chaiya and the situation, I won't name names because I am not them, but you can already find some answer in these threads if you just take the time to read carefully, people took the time to give long and detailed explanations for us and shared their research. In time, the truth will come out and expose the lies-as it has done in other forums.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?84224-Thai-Bare-Knuckle

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?75441-Krabi-Krabong-USA


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## Ianchaiya

ok i see no one will ever understand that i just wanted to talk about training. i may be childish but at least i am not arrogant of gullible, i wont believe everything i read like you guys see to do. if i proven wrong, then so be it. but i dont care. as i said, i started this thread to talk about training. none of you who keep on going with this negative discussion seem able to understand that.


i wont come back to this forum. was hoping to find like-minded people but instead i find only harshness. just wanted to talk about training for chirsts sake. whats wrong with you people? have to bully everyone to share the same viewpoint as yourself? am i so wrong to like kru mud and want to train with him? i can see nothing i say will produce anything other than counter-criticism so i shall say no more. thanks for bullying me off this site. its pathetic.

last thing i WILL say. i like learning chaiya, more than i have any other martial art that i have done before. and no amount of nay-saying and bullying me will convince me otherwise. good day to you all.


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## Fede

Yes it's true, those old Chinese and Japanese masters and their students argued and fought for their arguments and it was witnessed and proved, what the these three Chaiya teachers do is just argue WITHOUT SIGNED OR OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS FROM THE OLD TEACHERS (Kru Tong) that are needed to back up their claims.  Again like in Karate and TKD, whose teachers have these kind of documents or yes, they can have problems like who authorized you to teach.
It means that anyone with some Chaiya training can come up and say hey I am one of the only three masters allowed to teach the pure chaiya, I trained here and there but I have no certificate or solid proof to back my statement.
I am just trying to help you so again as you are good at Thai use it and do your research, just ask around there is no harm in that, you are in Bangkok and there are different Chaiya teachers so take your time.


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## Fede

I don't believe everything I read, I asked around when I was in Thailand and confronted what I was told with others who were there and did their work. I also saw with my own eyes when I was in Thailand and everytime I was advised to check directly. Even my teacher in Thailand gave me other teachers' contacts and told me to check around so that I could see for myself and expand my knowledge. It's good not to believe everything you read and again, that's what I am advising you to do: see for yourself! and don't just blindly report to your teacher


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## Cyriacus

Ianchaiya said:


> i wont come back to this forum. was hoping to find like-minded people but instead i find only harshness. just wanted to talk about training for chirsts sake. whats wrong with you people? have to bully everyone to share the same viewpoint as yourself? am i so wrong to like kru mud and want to train with him? i can see nothing i say will produce anything other than counter-criticism so i shall say no more. thanks for bullying me off this site. its pathetic.
> 
> last thing i WILL say. i like learning chaiya, more than i have any other martial art that i have done before. and no amount of nay-saying and bullying me will convince me otherwise. good day to you all.



In The Event You Do In Fact Leave, As A Result Of Distasteful Exchange;
Have A Nice Day, My Good Sir.
Live Long, Train Hard, And Have Fun.

:s70:

And In The Event You Stay, As A Result Of Any Given Thought Process;
I Assure You, One Negative Is Not All Consuming.
Talk About Any Martial Art, And You Will Eventually Find Negativity To Your Perceptions.
How You Respond To That Negativity, Will Create Outcomes.

I Am Curious To See What, If Any, Resolution Comes Of This Discussion.


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## destructautomaton

excuse me but there was NO distasteful exchange here at all if you read through this thread. ther was a discussion
this is how all chaiya threads on numerous forums go. same exact way every time.  its childish more than anything. hes also totally ignoring facts that many people here trained in thailand for a long time some for decades but he doesnt want to listen or hear that...strange isnt ????


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## Cyriacus

destructautomaton said:


> excuse me but there was NO distasteful exchange here at all if you read through this thread. ther was a discussion
> this is how all chaiya threads on numerous forums go. same exact way every time.  its childish more than anything.


It was quite Distasteful.
In the Sense that it was an Entire Conversation about People trying to Prove each other Wrong, whatever the Motives.
Such things are Fine, in Moderation.
But can you really say that this Entire Conversation was in Good Taste, for Both Sides?
But only in the Sense that it was a Completely Avoidable Debate.
I take no Sides, here.
I have Refrained from even Stating my own Opinion on the Discussion Itself.


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## destructautomaton

thats your opinion. i have mine. if martial arts dont suit you take up table tennis or something. the thread about bringing details about chaiya that are well known and need to be discussed. ian didnt want part of it and started crying its us beating him down.

No sense continuing but you want to keep on.


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## Cyriacus

destructautomaton said:


> thats your opinion. i have mine. if martial arts dont suit you take up table tennis or something. the thread about bringing details about chaiya that are well known and need to be discussed. ian didnt want part of it and started crying its us beating him down.
> 
> No sense continuing but you want to keep on.


I was under the Impression that the Thread was about Whether or Not there were other People on here who Practitioned either of the Styles?
My Mistake, I Suppose.

And why wouldnt Martial Arts suit me? Thats Hardly the Topic here.

And how do I want to keep on going? I just bid him Farewell.
Out of Politeness.


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## Fede

It is distasteful for ianchaiya to have statements countering his claims, and it is distasteful for others not to have any proof whatsoever to the same IMPORTANT claims here or on any other forum to begin with, since this is what has been discussed and led to the problem, and since there has not been a credible answer to that.


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## destructautomaton

this thread has outlived its usefulness. its just spinning in a circle


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## Fede

Agreed, it always gets stuck at the same point.


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## VASI

Yo no need to quit the forum, the **** rocks here
i go to thailand all the time my thai cuz does chaiya and i did it but dont like it we argue and fight all the time
so thats the way it goes bro. but the chaiya dudes in thailand are way too full of themselves for my taste and it
seems people got fed up with their talking and now its war on everytime they push their stuff


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## PoolMan

So I passed by most of the comments on here. Too much arguing. But to get back to the original question; no I have not trained in either muay chaiya or muay boran. I have however been training in lerdrit, muay chao chur, and boar bando since 2008. I find them to be fascinating arts and very effective as well.


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