# When WC falls apart....



## TMA17 (Dec 1, 2017)

One thing I noticed among most of the WC youtube videos is that WC folks when engaged in a fight end up throwing more wild punches and almost revert to sort of what looks like boxing or just heavy handed wild throws.  Why do they abandon their structure? 

This is honestly one of the only videos I've ever seen of WC where the WC maintains his WC structure, and it seems to have worked.

I really was impressed with this guy.  He didn't deviate from the WC style.  I have to say my experience at the MY school I was attending was that most of the guys there just didn't know how to fight.  One guy told me WC is a thinking man's art.  Two guys that were there for 4 years could hold their own reasonably well. 






Here are some interesting comments if found on a Wing Chun site:

"I teach wing chun, with 16 years of experience and 6 years teaching. I feel "Do not use brute force" Is a bit too final. It should be "know when to use force and know when to be passive". You need to be able to KO someone."

"Can I ask, why do they always use examples from opponents using wing chun... In a real life situation the average fighter on the street is going to be throwing haymakers.i just feel its counter productive to teach using technique against technique, but thats me. Either way wing chun is desinged to protect the center line, but I still think the examples should be more realistic. This is coming from a guy who trained under applied combatives founded by one of Master Lees students. I was taught wingschun and silat. I don't know maybe I haven't seen the right videos"

"I come across this problem a lot. In my school we specifically train against boxing, kick boxing, etc as well as against wing chun. The problem exists for a few reasons. 1. Practicality, the people you are training with only know wing chun (sometimes!) So you only have that to work with because of 2: politics/lineage problems. A lot of schools won't teach outside the box because they have an almost religious belief in what they were taught, And don't want to offend their master. 

I don't believe in that. I believe, learn all you can, use what you need. No matter where it comes from, if the technique is good it doesn't matter if it's wing chun, kick boxing or heck even real tai chi. 

Wing chun works best when mixed with other styles. It does well for the centre line, But doesn't deal with off centre until later on in it's syllabus, so my advice is mix in a dab of kick boxing to guard the sides better."


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## KPM (Dec 2, 2017)

I've brought up a similar point here several times.  One of the threads went on for many pages.


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## KPM (Dec 2, 2017)

Wing Chun Sparring


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## TMA17 (Dec 2, 2017)

Thanks KPM.  I wish I would have found it before posting this.  Sorry about that.


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## geezer (Dec 2, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> Here are some interesting comments if found on a Wing Chun site:
> "I teach wing chun, with 16 years of experience and 6 years teaching. I feel "Do not use brute force" Is a bit too final. It should be "know when to use force and know when to be passive". You need to be able to KO someone.  ...Wing chun works best when mixed with other styles..."



TMA --Could you tell us what WC site that was? ...I'd like to check it out.


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## geezer (Dec 2, 2017)

BTW the WC lineage I hail from has a saying regarding stages in training that's roughly worded like this:

First get rid of your own power.
Then get rid of your opponent's power.
Then learn to borrow your opponent's power.
Then you add back-in your power.

So the idea is to learn to relax so you can learn to softly parry and defend, then you can learn to borrow and exploit your opponent's movement. When you can do that, then put your power and KO the guy.

There was never the idea that WC guys are supposed to be weak! Just that you have to soften up and relax at first to really be able to use your force efficiently. Heck boxers learn the same thing. If you cant relax, you lose speed and you gas out.

 I think this idea that WC doesn't use power has gotten distorted over time because we don't spar enough, and because a lot of WC practitioners don't really want to engage in heavy contact.

Honestly? _Myself included_ ...especially after I moved into my 60s. So, like many others, in our group most of the time we play WC against WC, do a lot technical stuff, a lot of chi-sau and so on. It's fun, it's a challenging mental and physical game... but it is only _a part_ of what WC should be.

For younger guys and anybody who wants to use this stuff, you need a dose of reality too. I am totally honest with my student's about that, and we _can_ address that need through my friends Coach Martin, Coach Jeff, Coach Jay and the other great guys at the DTE MMA group.

The real problem comes from ego and money. My honesty about my own limitations doesn't bring in so many students. A con man (or a deluded "true believer") selling "magical" kung-fu where you have all the answers and you never need strength or sparring can probably build a much bigger club


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## geezer (Dec 2, 2017)

BTW ... I suppose I should explain my remarks above. Why so "confessional"? Well,  I'm kinda going through a martial arts depression right now as I'm dealing with some painful issues that are keeping me from being as physical as I was accustomed to be. 

So...  lately I feel like I've become another one of those guys that_ teaches but can't do_ ...At least not to the level I used to. Possibly, with some corrective surgeries I might be able to get back some of that. But for how long? I'd retire and turn my club over to one of my senior students, but they don't really want the responsibility. So for now, I'm carrying on as well as I can.


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## DanT (Dec 2, 2017)

The main reason why Wing Chun falls apart under pressure is poor training. A lot of schools don't train properly. Their techniques are weak and have no strength to them, and they never practice hiting anything or anyone.

As for Wing Chun not guarding the outside as much, we introduce using techniques to block hooks and round kicks right away. Luckily, our school also teaches Shaolin, so when the WC people spar the Shaolin people, they are forced to deal with hooks, round kicks, and other outside gate attacks.


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## drop bear (Dec 2, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> One thing I noticed among most of the WC youtube videos is that WC folks when engaged in a fight end up throwing more wild punches and almost revert to sort of what looks like boxing or just heavy handed wild throws.  Why do they abandon their structure?
> 
> This is honestly one of the only videos I've ever seen of WC where the WC maintains his WC structure, and it seems to have worked.
> 
> ...



Because you can't really see punches coming at speed.


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## Danny T (Dec 2, 2017)

What is shown on youtube isn't all of wing chun.
Much of what is shown on youtube unfortunately can be construed as poor wc.
Unfortunately much of what I have seen in many of the wc schools I've visited I consider to be poor wc.
That said I see a lot of poor boxing, muay thai, kali, wrestling, karate, mma,... etc.
I've also seen a lot of poor auto mechanics, doctors, lawyers, basketball, football...etc.

I don't do a huge amount of searching of anything on youtube...just not my thing.
The number 1 thing, in my opinion, that causes even relatively well trained chunners and other martial artists is the lack of any real pressure in their drills or sparring. Of those I've encountered there appears to me to be a huge lack of experience in getting hit. 

Not saying sparring is the most important thing but it is a very important element if the individual really wants to learn how to use their training for a physical confrontation. Form and drill is important. But to really understand timing, range control, controlling the pace of the action, being able to adapt immediately, etc, sparring and sparring a lot of different people who do things different than what you are accustom to is a necessary part of your training.


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## TMA17 (Dec 2, 2017)

Lately I've been obsessed with watching youtube videos of real fights.  I come across most of these via Wing Chun group on Facebook that will often post these videos.  Many are ridiculous, but you see a common element in most of them.  Punches are fast, unpredictable and wild.

You see people getting in each others face, some back off and start to box and throw wild haymakers and some end up on the ground.  I see far too many WC guys stand there with their guard up but waiting for the opponent or attacker to make first move.  I'm by no means a fight expert, but I do think more forward, aggressive pressure is what is needed.  Closing the gap as they say.  I've watched videos with Mark Philips too which suggest the same.

It's very hard, to almost impossible to block fast punches, rendering a lot of the WC blocks useless unless you're very close.  In those cases, as pointed out by others and those much more familiar with the art, is where it excels.

I have to say that for strictly self defense purposes, one could focus on throwing fast accurate jab/straight punches and hooks, dodging punches and ground work of some sort (BJJ/Wrestling/Judo etc.) and that would be your most effective overall style of real world self defense.  I don't think you need a real elaborate, overly complex art for every day self defense.  WC is definitely a good art for street fighting IMO.  As others have said it's the lack of training, sparing and poor WC that contributes to what we see.

From Look Beyond the Pointed Finger:
Wing Chun is a traditional martial art, but as practitioners of the Wong Shun Leung (WSL) system of wing chun know well,  it is first and foremost a deadly combat and protection-based art.  As Wong Shun Leung himself said, “_if you’re not attacking the attack, you’re not doing wing chun correctly._ ” Wong himself was no stranger to no-rules fighting and protecting his life in the street;


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 3, 2017)

Danny T said:


> But to really understand timing, range control, controlling the pace of the action, being able to adapt immediately, etc, sparring and sparring a lot of different people who do things different than what you are accustom to is a necessary part of your training.


This is probably my strongest belief in terms of learning how to apply martial arts techniques.  Most people say add something from another style. But if find that the "lack of a technique" isn't the problem.  It's the understanding of the technique in the context of what it's being used against that's the issue.

Wing Chun can be applied against boxer, but the approach can't be the same as if one is fighting another WC fighter.  The timing changes, the range changes, the movement changes and the .   I'm not a big fan of BJJ but they do an excellent job of adapting their existing techniques against other systems.  They aren't adding thing, but their approach changes as they go against various systems.  There approach to boxers is not the same approach they use for kickers or other grapplers.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 3, 2017)

If you train WC and your brother trains boxing. Whatever that you have learned from your WC class, you can test it on your brother at home. If you don't have a brother who train boxing, it should not be too hard to find someone outside of your family.

WC is great to protect center from inside out. When you are in WC guard, since your arms are already in your opponent's straight line striking path, it's difficult form your boxing opponent to throw jab and cross at you. But your WC guard won't protect your opponent's circular punch such as hook (or hay-maker). How to deal with the circular punches should be the modern WC #1 concern.


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## geezer (Dec 3, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> ....How to deal with the circular punches should be the modern WC #1 concern.



If that's true, then learning to counter takedowns would be a close second.

Then third would be what Jow Ga Wolf said. Learning how to make what you do best _work_ against a variety of opponents. It's not _how many_ techniques you know, it's whether or not you know how to set up an opponent so you can pull them off reliably. I think that's a good approach regardless of style.


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## KPM (Dec 3, 2017)

geezer said:


> Then third would be what Jow Ga Wolf said. Learning how to make what you do best _work_ against a variety of opponents. It's not _how many_ techniques you know, it's whether or not you know how to set up an opponent so you can pull them off reliably. I think that's a good approach regardless of style.



And how better to do that than to isolate a short section from the forms, work it independently....work it on the dummy...work it into a 2 man drill with a partner.... and then play with it to figure out how to make it work in "San Sau" against a variety of opponents.  Not to keep tooting my own horn.....but that's exactly how the Pin Sun San Sik function.


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## drop bear (Dec 3, 2017)

KPM said:


> And how better to do that than to isolate a short section from the forms, work it independently....work it on the dummy...work it into a 2 man drill with a partner.... and then play with it to figure out how to make it work in "San Sau" against a variety of opponents.  Not to keep tooting my own horn.....but that's exactly how the Pin Sun San Sik function.



I think your timing or the weight you place on importance of concept is out. And that comes back to recieving incorrect feedback.

When you go from half speed to full speed the concepts that begin to dominate change. This isn't just chun. This is everything. So you are placing weight on the concepts that work. But they are working in the wrong environment.

As soon as you go full noise you apply these half noise concepts and they fall apart.

If you can't really see punches coming at speed. You have to address punches before they happen or be some sort of genetic freak. So here as a simple concept example. Off the hand grab. He has to address a secondary punch to the head before the other guy thinks of it. Boxing would do this by moving off line. Wrestling would do this by closing the gap. This guy hasn't even considered it. So at speed you try this and your whole training gets nullified because you get smashed in the head before you can apply your kung fu.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 3, 2017)

geezer said:


> It's not _how many_ techniques you know, it's whether or not you know how to set up an opponent so you can pull them off reliably.


If you train the root - "enter strategy", you should also train branches such as:

- counters,
- counter to counters.


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