# Pacing out Siu Lim Tau



## Boozmork (Jun 17, 2010)

I've only really recently begun training in Wing Chun but am loving it so far. I practice Siu Lim Tau a couple of times every day. Maybe twice going through it slowly (at the proper pace) and five or so times just to keep the movements embedded in my head. 
I know that ideally it's supposed to take about 15-30 minutes from start to finish and I'm having real trouble making it last even as long as 5 mins, even that feels incredibly slow. 
Do you guys have any tips on how to go slower? I know it's a silly question where the answer is probably literally "do it slower" but perhaps you found different ways to help. 

My first thread here as well so go easy on me


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## CRCAVirginia (Jun 17, 2010)

Hello,

I train Siu Leem Tau many ways, if I want to do the slow section with reverse breathing it could take as long as I want it to. For Example:  I can do it with 4/3 breathing which can take about 15 minutes.  Which means I do 4 breaths out for the first Tan Sau and three from there out. (the first Tan Sau has longer to travel so 4 breaths) Or I up the time by doing 5/4 etc.  

In normal class Siu Leem Tau takes about two minutes.  You can also do it on one leg.  We also break down each movement and do them 108 times which can take over an hour.  I also do it with a larger rattan ring around the lower section of my thighs about three fingers distance from my knee.  This helps to maintain your stance.  

I have seen it done where you line your center up with a corner of a wall so that you have a reference point for your movements.  I have also seen it where you put your back against the Dummy to keep your shoulders from moving.  I am not one for practicing in the mirror but at times it can help correct bad form if you know what you are doing.


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## yak sao (Jun 17, 2010)

It is important to practice SNT slowly, but I would place even greater importance on being relaxed. 
In my lineage, most likely the same for yours, that means not becoming overly weak like a wet noodle, rather, to disengage muscles that are not utilized for a particular movement and focus only on theose muscles that are needed. But even then, try to relax those muscles. 
As you go slow, it is easier to concentrate on the proper muscle usage and remind yourself to relax. If you go fast with SNT from the start, you'll never learn to relax. But also remember, you can be doing the movements super slow but still have tension, so again RELAX.


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## Boozmork (Jun 17, 2010)

Thanks guys. I have been told about doing it whilst relaxed. It's trickier than I thought it would be, my inactive hand seems to curl up but I'm getting there. 

Great advice about the breathing as well. We haven't gone over the breathing really in class (as I say I've done 3 lessons so far so nothing to in depth) so thats a really interesting help. 

I'm going to forgo practicing it fast from now on I think and set aside a couple of 30min sessions a day to nail it slow. If nothing else it'll be good practice and good for my legs


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## mook jong man (Jun 17, 2010)

Time is pretty much irrelevant really in doing the form , obviously you shouldn't race through it either.

The main thing to be focused on is concentration , to be able to relax and fully concentrate on the task at hand and keep out distracting thoughts.

You must use your mind to initiate each and every movement , without this concentration the form just becomes a collection of empty physical movements.

15 or 30 minutes spent doing the form will do a lot for your stance , but to maintain a proper level of concentration for that long is a big ask.

 If you are not fully concentrating and instead you are thinking of what you are having for dinner that night then the results will be negligible. You might as well be just standing in front of the tv while you are doing it.

Personally I don't take any longer than 5 minutes to do the form  but I feel that the concentration I bring to bear in that 5 minutes is intense , and if I don't feel that my level of relaxation and focus was adequate then I will start it again.

But if you are just doing it for a long period of time for your stance then you would be better served to just stay still with both hands pulled back and meditate on your stance trying to consciously relax your thighs and keep your spine straight.

Or practice supplementary exercises like pivoting or walking in your stance for 30 minutes instead.

I suggest at your stage that you break the form into three sections and do them each separately , but with 100% focus on concentration , relaxation and correctness of movement.

It would be better to do these sections over and over again than to just do the whole form in one large chunk of 30 minutes.


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## Boozmork (Jun 17, 2010)

I do find it difficult to focus on the movements, but then I don't think I've been trying. I do admit I've been listening to the radio whilst doing it most times. 
I'll definitly try your advice though, I can understand that I'd get more benefits from focusing on the movements and concentrating. Although I've tried meditations before and I find it difficult to switch my brain off, it just runs off without me usually.


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## Domino (Jun 18, 2010)

Turn the radio off so you can concentrate and do it for as long as you choose to do.
http://www.kwokwingchun.co.uk/forms-applications/sil-lim-tau


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## zepedawingchun (Jun 18, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Time is pretty much irrelevant really in doing the form , obviously you shouldn't race through it either.
> 
> The main thing to be focused on is concentration , to be able to relax and fully concentrate on the task at hand and keep out distracting thoughts.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks mook jong man, you are so correct. Time is irrelevant.  When doing SNT slow, focus on the movements.  Many times people focus on the clock, making sure to stretch the movements out by watching the clock.  Get rid of the clock, move it or do your form where you can't see the clock.  Then you can focus entirely on the movements.  You should be relaxed when executing the hand positions.  Think of your arms as an outside water hose, with the hose having water flowing through it, water flowing out the end of the spout.  Same with you hand, energy flowing through your arm, travelling out your finger tips.  You have to use your imagination and visualize what you're doing as you focus on the movements.


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## matsu (Jun 18, 2010)

if time is limited i would take the breakdown aspect even further and take just 3 movements and do them slowly to get them right and then just keep repeating in sequence untill you can do them correctly at speed(the speed you are required by your sifu)
then move tothe next sequence of 2-3 moves etc. then at the end do the whole section that the sequence you picked and it should feel like its coming together.
it helped me?!!
matsu


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## mook jong man (Jun 18, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> Many times people focus on the clock, making sure to stretch the movements out by watching the clock. Get rid of the clock, move it or do your form where you can't see the clock. Then you can focus entirely on the movements. visualize what you're doing as you focus on the movements.


 
Thats right , the clock can be a big distraction and impediment to concentration.
Same goes for practicing the form in front of the mirror , once your movements are fairly correct you shouldn't use the mirror anymore.
It is ok every now and again just to check the correctness of your arm positioning though.


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## Boozmork (Jun 18, 2010)

Wow thanks for the advice everyone. I didn't expect so many responses. If I was more confident in the ways of the forum I would put some quotes that I found particularly helpful in here. 

I've been through the form a couple of times without distraction now, thinking of the movement that I'm on and not about what comes next and it really helps. I used to struggle with everything that was stationary moving as I did the slower movements but focusing helps a lot with that. 
It feels right as well, which is important I think, it doesn't feel awkward or painful, I feel in a more solid position.

Thanks again for the advice everyone. In a couple of months I'll be asking about Chim Kiu. Im sure I can find something in that to be confused about


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## mook jong man (Jun 18, 2010)

Boozmork said:


> Wow thanks for the advice everyone. I didn't expect so many responses. If I was more confident in the ways of the forum I would put some quotes that I found particularly helpful in here.
> 
> I've been through the form a couple of times without distraction now, thinking of the movement that I'm on and not about what comes next and it really helps. I used to struggle with everything that was stationary moving as I did the slower movements but focusing helps a lot with that.
> It feels right as well, which is important I think, it doesn't feel awkward or painful, I feel in a more solid position.
> ...


 
Try to focus your mind into your elbow , whether you are cutting down , raising the arm , moving the arm forward or bringing the arm back .
Use your mind to initiate the movement from the elbow.

Don't even worry about Chum Kiu , thats even harder , you have to apply the same level of concentration and focus , except that you are now MOBILE.


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## qwksilver61 (Jun 24, 2010)

Taking notes from my then Sihing Steve Brandon; when engaging...or practicing the Siu Nim Tau..."don't concentrate or even think..." he said your mind knows what to do...without a concerted effort....think of it as..almost getting into a wreck...responding...not thinking..and just simply reacting,If you were about to wreck,you would react rather than planning out a prescribed method or response." Siu nim tau should be practiced in a zen like state.... the mind knows what to do (form) response...without a prescribed plan.This has almost become a sort of gospel for me,my attention being placed primarily placed on placement..thoughts on zero..notta..zip...nilch....
when engaging,you do not have time to *think*.....this method has proven itself time and again without fail,call it an automatic response.My friends don't like it because it freaks them out,they don't know what to make of it.My enemies..well they didn't know what hit them.True that.


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## matsu (Jun 26, 2010)

qwksilver61 said:


> Taking notes from my then Sihing Steve Brandon; when engaging...or practicing the Siu Nim Tau..."don't concentrate or even think..." he said your mind knows what to do...without a concerted effort....think of it as..almost getting into a wreck...responding...not thinking..and just simply reacting,If you were about to wreck,you would react rather than planning out a prescribed method or response." Siu nim tau should be practiced in a zen like state.... the mind knows what to do (form) response...without a prescribed plan.This has almost become a sort of gospel for me,my attention being placed primarily placed on placement..thoughts on zero..notta..zip...nilch....
> when engaging,you do not have time to *think*.....this method has proven itself time and again without fail,call it an automatic response.My friends don't like it because it freaks them out,they don't know what to make of it.My enemies..well they didn't know what hit them.True that.


 
i am looking forward to being accomplished enough for "automatic response" to kick in.......
is it time put into the "gym/dojo" or is a natural occurrance ie you have it or you dont or is it a learnable thing?
i am certainly not a natural "fighter" esp with reaction times and instinc thing... in that sense i found karate and "point scoring" much easier almost like a chess thing setting people up and the like, i find this sooooo much harder....
sorry to digress from the original intention of the post....
matsu


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## qwksilver61 (Jun 27, 2010)

I believe this eventually  "kicks in" after performing Chi Sau training for extended periods.remember you are using Wing Tsun to defend against Wing Tsun..the more tools you have the greater the arsenal (ie;the sections of chi-sau),also feel......don't think..when rolling arms....this takes a while.Be patient.Two cents....input anyone..help? yes I am enrolled in EBMAS,and I used to train with My then Sihing Steve brandon,he was all about theory,very valuable lessons.EBMAS training is still Wing Tsun but with a great deal of emphasis being placed on combat from day one..theory too...eventually.I like it.


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## matsu (Jun 28, 2010)

oh thank god lol
i was hoping that my chi sau will pull it all together-thats what ive been told and how it was explained why we have not been introduced to it any earlier.
i look forward to being able to "just react" and surprise a few people how the "fat ole boy" is getting more difficutl to beat lol
thanks again
matsu


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## Boozmork (Jun 28, 2010)

hehe yeah, I was told that Chi Sau would help me understand the movements more. 
We did Chi Dan Sau in my last lesson which helped loads. It's still a little confusing but it really helps to start putting the pieces together.


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## matsu (Jun 29, 2010)

dan chi sau confused the hell out of me at first mate.but made so much more sense when we added and really emphasised footwork with it.
iv only done about 2 hours of real chi sau so i,m all over the place but it will get there in time..... patience grasshopper i keep telling myself, enjoy the journey.....blah blah..... i wanna be able to do it now dammit!!

matsu


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## cwk (Jun 29, 2010)

hello everyone this is my first post on this forum for a long time and I thought I'd just add my 2 pence worth.

To reply to the original topic-
I wouldn't focus too much on time taken when doing SLT if I were you. Instead focus on your structure, without it your techniques will have nothing backing them up.
First concentrate on stretching/straightening your spine, then try to completely relax so that your muscles "hang" off your skeletal structure but don't let your overall structure drop or get floppy.
just relax naturally. it'll take some time to get it right but it'll be worth it in the end.


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## Boozmork (Jun 29, 2010)

cwk said:


> hello everyone this is my first post on this forum for a long time and I thought I'd just add my 2 pence worth.
> 
> To reply to the original topic-
> I wouldn't focus too much on time taken when doing SLT if I were you. Instead focus on your structure, without it your techniques will have nothing backing them up.
> ...




Thanks, I do find that my structure slumps a little as I try to concentrate on where my hands are, especially during the slow tan/wu/fook part. I'm trying to relax, I think a lot of it will fall into place when I'm not trying to think what bits coming up next or how many times I've done the repititions. As soon as I can turn my mind off I think I'll be able to relax a lot more.

Thanks for all the advice though guys, I've noticed a definite improvement since I posted the OP


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## qwksilver61 (Jun 30, 2010)

Basic stuff ....relax without caving in........ maintain, keep structure,stay the course,all in this order...structure, speed,power............plain..enough....
c'mon people!


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## zepedawingchun (Jul 1, 2010)

Remember, don chi sao is a drill that has a purpose, to help you learn how to use your hand positions for chi sao:

Don chi sao (single hand) helps . . . .
A. Develop form (position), equalibrium (energy), stance
B. Develop elbow
C. Develop sticking
D. Develop roll
E. Develop tan sao
F. Develop bong sao
G. Develop jut sao
H. Develop dim jern
I. Develop relaxation

You learn how to transition from hand postion to hand position for:
A. Attack (dim jern)
B. Defend (bong & tan)
C. Ready (fook)

Both participants, while doing the exercise should be in a relaxed state, not forcing or putting too much energy in the drill. Many times, students put too much energy, or pressure, or force, and over extend the dim jern and the punch. The purpose of both is to teach your partner basic stick, defend, and counter to your movements. Remember, you are not trying to fight or strike your partner, but help train them to use the basic hand positions in the drill. If done correctly, the end product is everything listed above.


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## Boozmork (Jul 18, 2010)

Just a quick update for this thread I started a while back. 
I've been doing two classes a week for about two months I think now and I just got back from a six hour seminar about Siu Lim Tau specifically and the applications of the various little moves.
It helps a million times over knowing what the movements are and what they actually mean and are able to achive. Just knowing a little more about the little bits will make it a lot easier to slow down and think about what I'm doing because they aren't just faceless movements now, they have some meaning that I can work and tweak and stuff. 

I've also been trying everyones advice of course, soon I'll be able to make it last all day without thinking about it .


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## Nabakatsu (Jul 18, 2010)

Awesome, I'm glad to hear of your progress.
While we are on the topic of pacing things out, remember don't burn yourself out, if your like me, hearing that will mean nothing to you, until it's too late.
I think your comment referring to being able to do it all day, was more for a humorous effect, none the less, too much of a good thing..
I was practicing like 4 hours a day, for a good 3-4 months, it's just hard to do in today's society without losing your marbles, not to mention it get's a little boring without a partner.


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## Boozmork (Jul 18, 2010)

Thanks , I do feel a little burned out afterwards. My legs are still getting used to the sunken stance, I cramp up late in the first part of the form, which isn't too bad and I'm getting better. 
I try to go through the form at least twice a day though to keep it fresh in my mind.
My back starts to ache as well, I have fairly bad posture so Im constantly slumping forward and then correcting myself so yeah, twice a day is plenty for me at the moment before Im Siu Lim Tauered (Tired (sort of works as a pun))


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## zepedawingchun (Jul 18, 2010)

Boozmork said:


> My back starts to ache as well, I have fairly bad posture so Im constantly slumping forward and then correcting myself so yeah, twice a day is plenty for me at the moment before Im Siu Lim Tauered (Tired (sort of works as a pun))


 
Not good, your back shouldn't ache.  If it does then you're doing something really wrong.  Fix it, work on your stance (posture) before you go any farther.  If you've been doing Wing Chun and SNT as long as you state, it shouldn't be an issue.


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## Boozmork (Jul 19, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> Not good, your back shouldn't ache.  If it does then you're doing something really wrong.  Fix it, work on your stance (posture) before you go any farther.  If you've been doing Wing Chun and SNT as long as you state, it shouldn't be an issue.



Its really just the old habits of my posture keep rearing its head. So I start off straight and then subconciously slump over a little bit so as I go through the motions I'm slumping and correcting myself. I just have to be stricter in keeping my spine straight.


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