# Etiqutte in the Dojang



## SamT (Jun 13, 2008)

This post deals with appropriateness of things that could accidently come across as sexual. Just a warning.

When working on self-defense, I'm usually paired up with our 2nd Gup, who's female. While training, her dobak will loosen up. She does wear a sports bra underneath, but I just look straight ahead and focus on what we're doing. However, this does make me somewhat uncomfortable. I know it shouldn't and I should be level headed, but being 17 and male, nature is against me. Should just keep ignoring it, or should I talk to either her or one of our instructors about it? I don't want to sound like a pervert for noticing it, but at the same time, it certainly can't be bad to limit distraction.

Another thing I'm curious about, also pertaining to self defense, is when you have someone from behind (bear hug, Full Nelson, headlock) or are ontop of them. Should the groin be held back, or given that we're working with self defense, is it appropriate to come at them exactly as an assailant would? We don't wear cups, and I'm concerned about things coming across as sexual that shouldn't, especially when I'm working with two of our new students, who are 10th Gup like me.


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## terryl965 (Jun 13, 2008)

First off you are 17 and have special urges at this age , so I say go talk to your instructor and tell them you are uncomfitable with doing SD with her and why. I am sure he will amke adjustments for you.


On the second part I am confused by why you would not be wearing a cup during SD, just for the sake of having it.


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## Kacey (Jun 13, 2008)

SamT said:


> This post deals with appropriateness of things that could accidently come across as sexual. Just a warning.
> 
> When working on self-defense, I'm usually paired up with our 2nd Gup, who's female. While training, her dobak will loosen up. She does wear a sports bra underneath, but I just look straight ahead and focus on what we're doing. However, this does make me somewhat uncomfortable. I know it shouldn't and I should be level headed, but being 17 and male, nature is against me. Should just keep ignoring it, or should I talk to either her or one of our instructors about it? I don't want to sound like a pervert for noticing it, but at the same time, it certainly can't be bad to limit distraction.



She may not be aware of it; she may be discounting it because of the setting.  If you are not comfortable talking to her (which, like your distraction, is perfectly normal - there's nothing perverted about it), then talk to your instructor in a calm, non-judgmental, objective way about why it's a _training_ problem for you.  You're unlikely to be the first one to have that problem.  



SamT said:


> Another thing I'm curious about, also pertaining to self defense, is when you have someone from behind (bear hug, Full Nelson, headlock) or are ontop of them. Should the groin be held back, or given that we're working with self defense, is it appropriate to come at them exactly as an assailant would? We don't wear cups, and I'm concerned about things coming across as sexual that shouldn't, especially when I'm working with two of our new students, who are 10th Gup like me.



It does very little good, however polite it may seem, to attack in any way _other_ than how a real attacker would - although I agree with Terry - why _aren't_ you wearing a cup?  Nonetheless, there is a difference between a normal posture and pushing the groin forward - it's the latter that creates a problem.  If you're wearing a cup, however, the cup is what will make contact if anything does... and tends to restrain notice of any instinctual or reflexive responses.


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## SamT (Jun 13, 2008)

Groin cups are mandatory according to the rules, but my instructors have never discussed it with me or pushed me for it. I will be investing in one soon. Do they create a very noticeable bulge, or do they tend to be more subtle? And thanks for the advice. I really didn't want a Sam Dan to think I was doing something I shouldn't be, my pain tolerance wouldn't handle it.

Unfortunately we only have four students right now, me included. I really don't want to cause any troubles or inconvenience the other student, especially given that her mother is currently in the hospital. I'll probably talk to my instructors about it, and see if they'll simply assign another student to work with her or if something will be worked out. I doubt she'd have a problem with tightening her dobak up a bit, but hopefully something will work out.


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## MBuzzy (Jun 13, 2008)

I've even known some women to install a "snap button" into their dobaks...although I wouldn't know a tactful way to suggest it!


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## Kacey (Jun 13, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> I've even known some women to install a "snap button" into their dobaks...although I wouldn't know a tactful way to suggest it!


Velcro - much better than anything stiff like a snap!  Kick a snap just wrong, and it'll hurt... kick velcro, and who cares?


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## CrimsonPhoenix (Jun 13, 2008)

In our class women are allowed to wear a white t-shirt underneath our dobak. It's quite necessary especially since we do a lot of self defense and the dobak loosening up is a problem. If you do talk to her or your instructor, would suggesting that she wear a plain white t-shirt underneath be a plausible option?


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jun 13, 2008)

It's standard practice, at least at my dojang, to wear a t-shirt underneath the dobok, partly for that exact reason. 

Hope things work out...worse comes to worse, just keep ignoring it.


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## Lynne (Jun 15, 2008)

I'm busty and my dobok is open at all times.  There is nothing I can do about it.  Some of the tanks I bought were too low cut!  So, I went to the men's department at Target and bought a lightweight Champion short sleeve tank that does not have a scoop neck. It's long enough to cover my skin under my dobok pants, too. Problem solved.

Personally, I think sports bras alone are a dumb idea.  They may give some support but they don't cover very much.

It would be helpful is the dojang owner would make it mandatory for women to wear t-shirts under their doboks.

Often, women don't realize they are distracting males.


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## JoelD (Jun 15, 2008)

Like others posted above, the females in our dojang are required to wear t-shirts under their dobaks. Frankly, i feel sorry for them... if i had to i would probably die of heat stroke....

I doubt i would find a female's naughty bits very distracting in the dojang anyways... i usually have to put so much effort into getting my technique right i dont have time to notice that sort of thing...


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## dortiz (Jun 15, 2008)

Please watch the movie "theres something about Mary. You need to get rid of all of that energy before class.


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## mijemi (Jun 17, 2008)

Your distraction is normal but it's not necessarily isolated to men. I think it's something you will learn to deal with.


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## Montecarlodrag (Jun 21, 2008)

SamT said:


> This post deals with appropriateness of things that could accidently come across as sexual. Just a warning.
> 
> When working on self-defense, I'm usually paired up with our 2nd Gup, who's female. While training, her dobak will loosen up. She does wear a sports bra underneath, but I just look straight ahead and focus on what we're doing. However, this does make me somewhat uncomfortable. I know it shouldn't and I should be level headed, but being 17 and male, nature is against me. Should just keep ignoring it, or should I talk to either her or one of our instructors about it? I don't want to sound like a pervert for noticing it, but at the same time, it certainly can't be bad to limit distraction.
> .


 
When I was 8th gup I had a similar situation. 
I was training with a beautiful brunette girl, 2 years older than me, 3rd gup.
She always used sport bra, very sexy indeed, but it didn't cover enough. She didn't notice (or didn't care, I don't know ) 
T-shirts were suggested but not mandatory, because summers are very hot here.

When doing Ho sin sul, it was impossible not to look at her breasts. I was 16, a lot of energy and hormone. It is just a natural thing, the very nature of being male, nothing to be ashamed of.
But it was uncomfortable for me, and I didn't say anything because I was too shy. 
Later I realized I was not the only one, so I just focused on the training. Later, things changed. Exercises were more difficult, the girl quit, so I focused only on the training.

Now, I teach. I have a class filled with women, some of them very beautiful (I have a class just for women, to teach them self defense). 
As the instructor I have to make an example of respect and be a gentleman. I have developed a high mental state. I can see a woman without thinking anything sexual. I just see the kick, or if she isn't doing something correctly. I see her like any other person. It wasn't easy, but I achieved it.


You just need to take it easy, focus on the training. Make it part of your mental training by controling any sexual attraction and stay focused. You will develop a good mental state and nothing will distract you.


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## Tez3 (Jun 21, 2008)

I do MMA and a lot of grappling, I don't always wear a Gi but if I do I wear either a Tshirt or a rashguard underneath it. What I always wear when sparring of any sort is a chest protection likewise the men always wear a groin protector (cup to you lol) it's necessary because getting kicked, punched/elbowed/kneed etc _there_ hurts!


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## Errant108 (Jun 21, 2008)

Truthfully,  just deal with it.

This isn't her issue, it's yours.  You're attaching to this idea, this thought, and letting it run you.

Consider it a challenge to your focus.  Deal with it as such.  You're likely going to find yourself in much more compromising positions as you mature, and will have to deal with them tactfully.  This is just another part of your training.  You can make an issue of it, or you can chose not to.  Do you ever see a male's breast inside his dobok?  Why is she any different?  Merely because you have attached to her sexuality.

A glimpse at a sports bra covered breast under a dobok during practice is nothing.  Literally nothing.  It's your thoughts, your attachment to it that becomes the issue.

Two monks were once walking down a road, where they found a young woman who was tired and unable to walk.  One monk picked her up and carried her to a town where she was able to get help.  He had long ago taken a vow of chastity, and touching a woman, holding her close to his body like he did, was forbidden.

The two monks continued on their journey.  As they went their way, it became obvious  that the second monk was very troubled.  The first monk asked him, "Brother, what is the matter?"

"You touched a woman, you carried her and held her next to your body!  You have broken your vows to carry a woman!" the second monk explained.

The first monk smiled at his brother monk, and replied, "I set the woman down several miles ago.  You are still carrying her."


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## Sukerkin (Jun 21, 2008)

An interesting last point there, *errant*.  

However, much as I agree with the philosophical intent and agree that it is something to aspire to, most of us are not monks and are genetically programmed to like women very much indeed.

Now, I do concur that it is up to us, as well bred men, to do our best to not be overly distracted by such things but also it is our female co-students responsibility to be sensitive to certain biological realities.

Wearing a tee-shirt or similar to maintain modesty is by far the easiest way of containing the problem (that's two days in a row that I intended no pun, I must be sickening for something ).

Also, by way of reassurance to the OP, you do get used to it with time - tho' advancing age helps too .


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## MBuzzy (Jun 21, 2008)

I have to agree with Errant here.  While women should exercise some care to keep things covered, it is more up to the men to be mature about it do their best to not be distracted.

Afterall, if a women ends up filing a sexual harrassment suit, will the man be responsible for looking or will she be responsible for not covering properly?


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## Sukerkin (Jun 21, 2008)

I do believe that we should attempt to think on this as we would on any other 'distracting' behaviour in the dojo.

Whilst it is is up to all of us to try *not* to be distracted, it is also beholden on those inducing the distraction to try to minimise it.

It is becoming all too common in these PC days to apportion blame, regardless of equity, to those not favoured by the PC spotlight.  It's unlikely to stop anytime soon but it doesn't make it any less unfair.


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## Errant108 (Jun 22, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> However, much as I agree with the philosophical intent and agree that it is something to aspire to, most of us are not monks and are genetically programmed to like women very much indeed.



Monks share the same genetic programming as you and like women very much indeed as well.  That is the point.  Sexual desire is not "turned off" once you take vows.

We determine our relationship to things by how we hold them in mind.



Sukerkin said:


> Now, I do concur that it is up to us, as well bred men, to do our best to not be overly distracted by such things but also it is our female co-students responsibility to be sensitive to certain biological realities.
> 
> Wearing a tee-shirt or similar to maintain modesty is by far the easiest way of containing the problem (that's two days in a row that I intended no pun, I must be sickening for something ).



If you don't require the men to wear a T-shirt, then why require the women?

Making extra requirements for women for fear of their sexuality smells like fear.  This isn't the Victorian age.  A woman's body is not an evil thing that needs to be covered so as to avoid tempting young men.

If the momentary glimpse of a woman's *covered *breast (sports bra, underneath a dobok/gi/whatever) is enough to shatter concentration, then you need to work on your concentration.  This is MARTIAL ART we're speaking of.



Sukerkin said:


> I do believe that we should attempt to think on this as we would on any other 'distracting' behaviour in the dojo.
> 
> Whilst it is is up to all of us to try *not* to be distracted, it is also beholden on those inducing the distraction to try to minimise it.



There is no "behavior" here.  There is a young woman, properly clothed, indeed, already wearing more clothing than the other male students, practicing the same techniques as the males.  She is not behaving, not doing, anything other than what anyone else in the class is doing.  By treating this as "behavior", you are saying she is responsible for the actions of others.

This young woman is not doing anything, not behaving, in any way that is any different from any other student in the class.

Classifying this as "behavior" is not logical.



Sukerkin said:


> It is becoming all too common in these PC days to apportion blame, regardless of equity, to those not favoured by the PC spotlight. It's unlikely to stop anytime soon but it doesn't make it any less unfair.



This is not an issue of blame on any side.  It only becomes that if you make it so.

It is an issue of mindset.  We determine our relationship to phenomena by the mindset we chose to impose on it.  Look at your posts, viewing this as an issue of "behavior" and "blame".  That is how you've chosen to view this issue.  The OP views it in terms of sexuality.  While his mindset may be completely natural, that does not mean he cannot reframe it.

Imagine if this young man was practicing no-gi Brazilian jujutsu with this young woman in class.  T-shirt or not, he's going to have to deal with the fact that he is now in intimate physical contact with her breasts, her legs, her body.  If he's too worried about that, if he cannot let that go, not attach to it, chances are he will be tapping out to her very quickly.

I know, because that was me at age 17.  Believe me, I do have empathy with the young man in the OP.  I have grown because of my experiences.

We all wear a dobok or gi because that is the uniform for our class.  Men were cups and the like to protect their genitals from injury.  Women wear sports bras to support their breasts during movement and to cover them.

*Requiring *a woman to wear a T-shirt would not be an action of enforcing "modesty".  She is all ready more covered than she would be at a competative swimming or gymnastics event.  It would literally be requiring her to cover her breasts because the men just can't handle it.  That's weak.

Errant108
*who has decided he will toss Playboy Centerfolds at his opponents before striking from now on*


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## Sukerkin (Jun 22, 2008)

A nicely laid out reply, *Errant*; I'm assuming that the uses of "you" within it were plural rather than personal?  

Clearly an attempt to show that there can be a sensible middle-ground became interpreted as something else.  

I happen not to agree fully with your views on this but I do not disagree either, certainly not intensely enough to get into an argument about it.


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## Errant108 (Jun 22, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> A nicely laid out reply, *Errant*; I'm assuming that the uses of "you" within it were plural rather than personal?



Unless I was specifically referring to something you said, of course.


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## Tez3 (Jun 22, 2008)

I require myself to wear a t shirt or rashguard not from modesty but from vanity. While I'm not big busted and I think I'm holding up well for my age lol the rest of me is not in the first flush of youth and there's no way I'm flashing a less than toned midriff! I'm not alone in this as we have a couple of chaps who also wear t shirts and rashguards to cover their middles for the same reason. 
We have no problem if a girl wanted to train in a sports top and shorts but would suggest they cover up when grappling because of 'mat burn', painful.


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