# How to stop rapists...



## billc (Aug 9, 2014)

Well, over on the political sister site I posted about three women who have started a new group to help women learn self defense, in particular with guns.  One of the founders,is the woman who was raped 50 feet from the college police station after the police station had closed for the evening.

In response to this post, someone gave the reply..."Teach men not to rape."


My question...okay...how do you do that?   since the vast majority of mean don't rape already, how do you stop the bad men who are not constrained by the law?  any Ideas...?  I know how I answered...


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## Steve (Aug 10, 2014)

I don't think we need a play by play.  I may be wrong, but the idea of posting politics over there is that they stay over there.


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## billc (Aug 10, 2014)

Steve, please...reread the post..it came from the political side but the question isn't political...I think you can make that distinction...right...?  and considering the post came from their firearm thread, and concerned the creation of a group for women's self defense?  Your latent hostility is showing...


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## donald1 (Aug 10, 2014)

50 ft from campus police,  we're they even there?  If they were there that's sad to do nothing of it 


Wait are second is this a rhetorical question I get those mixed up cause the answer is usually obvious
I think they should know self defense


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## billc (Aug 10, 2014)

It wasn't rhetorical...I am just curious what answers there may be besides "teach men not to rape."  I believe most men already know that it is wrong to rape, and I don't think you can teach the bad guys not too...I think you have to make them stop...



> 50 ft from campus police, we're they even there? If they were there that's sad to do nothing of it



Apparently, the campus station had been closed for four hours before she was attacked...

She is a black belt in TKD and has a concealed carry permit and a gun...but couldn't carry it because the campus was a posted "gun free zone"


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 10, 2014)

billc said:


> Well, over on the political sister site I posted about three women who have started a new group to help women learn self defense, in particular with guns.  One of the founders,is the woman who was raped 50 feet from the college police station after the police station had closed for the evening.
> 
> In response to this post, someone gave the reply..."Teach men not to rape."
> 
> ...


Rape is a crime of opportunity. Take away the opportunity.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 10, 2014)

Steve said:


> I don't think we need a play by play.  I may be wrong, but the idea of posting politics over there is that they stay over there.


While he is leading us, he seems within reason.


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## Tames D (Aug 10, 2014)

Well, it's obvious... They need to create " rape free zones". That should solve the problem.


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## billc (Aug 10, 2014)

for the record...this was my answer...



> Hmmm...interesting strategy...any thoughts on how to make the bad guys stop raping? I know of a tried and true method that comes in several different "formats," 9mm, .45, and .40...those are the most popular...it usually only takes one "session" with the violent, thug rapist and usually the problem is solved,or he is taken into long term care/custody....after a period of time recuperating in a hospital...or in the morgue...


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## drop bear (Aug 10, 2014)

Aversion therapy. I mean if it is good enough to cure homosexuality then it should work for rapists.

Clockwork Orange cinematic aversion therapy ? Critical Commons


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 10, 2014)

Tames D said:


> Well, it's obvious... They need to create " rape free zones". That should solve the problem.


It is becoming harder and harder, with modern technology, to just make off with someone. It still goes on, but the rapists have to be smarter these days.
Sean


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## Hanzou (Aug 10, 2014)

billc said:


> It wasn't rhetorical...I am just curious what answers there may be besides "teach men not to rape."  I believe most men already know that it is wrong to rape, and I don't think you can teach the bad guys not too...I think you have to make them stop...



Honestly, women should learn Bjj or Judo for self defense. Not saying that women shouldn't learn Karate, TKD, or another striking art,  but they should really have a strong foundation in those grappling arts first before learning striking arts for self defense. Why? Because those arts don't rely on brute force like the striking arts, and can be performed from compromising positions, like on the back, or all fours. Furthermore, a woman practicing those arts are going to have a lot of experience practicing with men larger than themselves at full speed and power.


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## billc (Aug 10, 2014)

Hanzou, size and weight matter and brute,force,does,matter,when we are,talking about life or death, and even rape.  Besides, the rapist,violated,the "gun free zone" and used a gun to subdue his victims...she on the other hand complied with the "gun free zone" and left her concealed,carry gun off campus...and out of the "gun free zone". 

Besides, guns are an even greater equalizer than empty hand martial arts training...


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## K-man (Aug 10, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Honestly, women should learn Bjj or Judo for self defense. Not saying that women shouldn't learn Karate, TKD, or another striking art,  but they should really have a strong foundation in those grappling arts first before learning striking arts for self defense. Why? Because those arts don't rely on brute force like the striking arts, and can be performed from compromising positions, like on the back, or all fours. Furthermore, a woman practicing those arts are going to have a lot of experience practicing with men larger than themselves at full speed and power.


Sorry but that is false thinking. I have one student in my Krav class who is barely 5ft tall. She would have bugger all chance on the ground against a bigger guy but on her feet she can put 6ft guys on their arses. The rationale is hit first and hit hard. And, for what it's worth, nothing I teach relies on strength and speed.
:asian:


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## Chris Parker (Aug 10, 2014)

billc said:


> Well, over on the political sister site I posted about three women who have started a new group to help women learn self defense, in particular with guns.  One of the founders,is the woman who was raped 50 feet from the college police station after the police station had closed for the evening.
> 
> In response to this post, someone gave the reply..."Teach men not to rape."
> 
> ...



Hmm&#8230; I get where you're coming from, and where the reply you got comes from&#8230; but none of it's as simple as either of you are making out. I'll give an attempt to look at the idea here&#8230; 



billc said:


> It wasn't rhetorical...I am just curious what answers there may be besides "teach men not to rape."  I believe most men already know that it is wrong to rape, and I don't think you can teach the bad guys not too...I think you have to make them stop&#8230;



Yeah&#8230; that's part of the issue you're having, Bill&#8230; this is going to sound rather&#8230; well&#8230; wrong&#8230; but the simple thing is that not all, in fact, not many rapists are what would be classed as "bad guys" the way you tend to use the term. It's a much greyer area than that&#8230; which is where the idea of "teach men not to rape" comes into it.

Now, before anyone jumps to a deeply wrong conclusion here, I am in no way condoning, accepting, or promoting the idea that rape is normal, good, acceptable, or anything less than a deeply traumatic, mentally and physically scarring, horrendous act that is utterly reprehensible. This will need some filling out, but we'll get to that in a bit.



billc said:


> She is a black belt in TKD and has a concealed carry permit and a gun...but couldn't carry it because the campus was a posted "gun free zone"



Yeah&#8230; to be frank, I'm going to say "So?" to that&#8230; 



billc said:


> for the record...this was my answer...
> 
> 
> 
> > _Hmmm...interesting strategy...any thoughts on how to make the bad guys stop raping? I know of a tried and true method that comes in several different "formats," 9mm, .45, and .40...those are the most popular...it usually only takes one "session" with the violent, thug rapist and usually the problem is solved,or he is taken into long term care/custody....after a period of time recuperating in a hospital...or in the morgue..._



Honestly, Bill, that's an easy, incomplete, inaccurate, and largely naive rhetoric as an answer there. And, if I really want to be honest (and possibly a bit offensive), as a thought process, it's actually quite a close echo to the mentality of rape itself&#8230; purely concerned with personal power over others. It's fantasist, and dangerous. Bluntly, it's not a healthy mentality.



drop bear said:


> Aversion therapy. I mean if it is good enough to cure homosexuality then it should work for rapists.
> 
> Clockwork Orange cinematic aversion therapy ? Critical Commons



I don't know if you're being serious, or simply blatantly homophobic here&#8230; there isn't anything in that Clockwork Orange clip about "curing homophobia" (whatever the hell that ludicrous idea could be about&#8230; there's nothing to damn well "cure"&#8230

Can you clarify before I write you off completely?



Hanzou said:


> Honestly, women should learn Bjj or Judo for self defense. Not saying that women shouldn't learn Karate, TKD, or another striking art,  but they should really have a strong foundation in those grappling arts first before learning striking arts for self defense. Why? Because those arts don't rely on brute force like the striking arts, and can be performed from compromising positions, like on the back, or all fours. Furthermore, a woman practicing those arts are going to have a lot of experience practicing with men larger than themselves at full speed and power.



To be frank, I'd agree that BJJ is the best (martial arts) option&#8230; but not really for many of the reasons that Hanzou says here&#8230; 

My primary reason for encouraging/suggesting BJJ is that the most common way for a woman to be assaulted is for her to be grabbed... followed by having a weapon used to gain compliance&#8230; and, as far as the first aspect, BJJ is one of the best systems for dealing with such attacks/situations. Not so much against weapons, but it's a good start.



billc said:


> Hanzou, size and weight matter and brute,force,does,matter,when we are,talking about life or death, and even rape.



And the girl in question can just put on size and strength when being assaulted? Most women can't ever get anywhere near as "big" or "strong" as men&#8230; so this is kinda pointless thinking. Additionally, you're still looking at only one version of these situations, the "worst case" version&#8230; which isn't the reality, and doesn't actually have a lot to do with the concept of "teach men not to rape".



billc said:


> Besides, the rapist,violated,the "gun free zone" and used a gun to subdue his victims...she on the other hand complied with the "gun free zone" and left her concealed,carry gun off campus...and out of the "gun free zone".



(Hmm, what's happening with all these comma's?) Yeah&#8230; you're looking at entirely the wrong thing there&#8230; but I might point out that none of that (the rapist being armed) is anywhere in this thread for anyone to have that information. You mentioned that this was in a firearms thread on the other forum, but as the topic is a womens self defence group focusing on use of firearms, that didn't tell us anything about the particular assault you're using here at all. 



billc said:


> Besides, guns are an even greater equalizer than empty hand martial arts training...



No, they're not. For one thing, a gun is not an "equaliser"&#8230; unless the other person has a gun as well. Then it'd be "equal"&#8230; but that's not the point&#8230; you don't want it to be an "equaliser", you want it to be an advantage over the other person.

Okay, to the rest of the ideas.

Let's clear something up. Rapists aren't always, or even commonly, "bad guys". By that, I mean that they are not "career criminals", inherent thugs, drug addicts, or anything of the kind. Some are, certainly&#8230; but not all, and far from most. In fact, statistics suggest that it's more likely to be a friend, a date, or someone else close to the woman. So, before we get to look too much at rape defence, we need to come to some understanding of not only how it happens, but why, and by whom. 

The sad reality is that probably the majority of rapists/sexual predators would never consider themselves as such. The reason isn't that they are living in denial, so much as it's due to a failure to recognise what their actions actually are, Various statistics indicate that anywhere between 1 in 10 to 1 in 4 men, at least at one time in their life, will be guilty of sexual assault in one way or another (the stats aren't that easy to rely on, due to it not being properly recognised&#8230; personally, I'd suggest that it's actually a lot higher, to be blunt). This runs the gamut from verbal/non-physical harassment, through overly physical contact (unwanted/unsought), to violent aggressive assault itself. The reasons that these behaviours aren't recognised as a form of sexual assault are myriad&#8230; part of it is biology&#8230; part is social convention and perceived permissive societies&#8230; part is the social concept of shame and guilt&#8230; but a big part of it is that there is a sense of "normalcy" to most behaviours. Men are meant to "chase"&#8230; women are supposed to be "chased" ("chaste"? Hmm&#8230&#8230; and they're supposed to be "hard to get"&#8230; resistance is normal, it's a way of testing the quality of the man, whether he gives up quickly (fail), or he perseveres&#8230; 

This then leads to a particular behaviour&#8230; a way of justifying pushing past a womans resistance&#8230; feeling, believing in many ways, that it's what she really wants. She wants him to push past her objections&#8230; and, in a number of cases, that's true&#8230; but it's hardly universal. The problem is when men are unable to identify the difference between a flirtatious resistance, a testing of character and quality, and a genuine rebuking or refusal of his advances. Some guys simply are unable to differentiate (hell, I'd say most are unable to really, consistently tell the difference), some have an internal belief that all resistance is flirtatious, and therefore won't register any difference&#8230; others go the other way, thinking that all resistance is "real"&#8230; neither approach is correct, or good for anyone involved. But this is where the idea of "teach men not to rape" comes from.

The idea is that men need to learn how to respect a genuine refusal from women. Sadly, the reality doesn't seem to be that well understood on either side&#8230; the women's side is basically that men need to be educated that rape is wrong, bad, unforgivable, and so on&#8230; that women and their decisions are to be respected and listened to, that any transgressions are on the men, and so on. Men, on the other hand, by and large are relatively lost when it comes to the subtleties of going from flirtatious to genuine resistance and refusals&#8230; the mixed signals, the difficulty of knowing if you should keep pursuing or step back, is just not that obvious to the vast majority of guys&#8230; add to that various outside factors, such as alcohol, social pressure, bad advice from others that also don't get what's really going on, and so on, all contribute to the poor understanding on mens' side.

I will be absolutely clear here, no woman is ever to blame for any form of sexual assault. However, an argument can be made for mitigating fault in some (emphasis here: some) cases on the mens' side&#8230; not that it minimised the act, or the blame associated&#8230; and, obviously, the more severe the assault, the more blame is on the man.

So, from there, we get to the initial question&#8230; how do you teach men not to rape? Sadly, it's not as simple as just telling them not to&#8230; or expecting that they'd realise that themselves. As I've said, most wouldn't classify any transgressions or assaults as actually being what they are&#8230; they would dismiss them as something like the woman not being clear&#8230; or that she was just playing the game (flirtatious resistance)&#8230; or that what they did might have pressured the girl into something she didn't want to do initially, but I'm sure she enjoyed it&#8230; or anything else. How do you teach someone not to do something they're not aware they're doing, at whatever level it's occurring? Honestly, the first step is to make them aware. And, for that, we need the help of women. We need help to learn to differentiate between "flirtatious resistance" and genuine refusal. We need help to learn to identify how the behaviour is being received. And we need men to realise that their actions are not what they necessarily think they are&#8230; and to be willing to accept that things aren't as we think they are&#8230; as well as have the courage to face it and move past it.

The problem is that this is largely unrealistic. That's the simple reality. So we get hashtag movements, which have the purported aim of raising awareness&#8230; but honestly, don't do much even in that regard. They're a purely conscious mind action&#8230; and what needs to happen is an unconscious re-wiring&#8230; a new way of interacting socially&#8230; a greater empathy between both sides. To begin with.


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## drop bear (Aug 10, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Honestly, women should learn Bjj or Judo for self defense. Not saying that women shouldn't learn Karate, TKD, or another striking art,  but they should really have a strong foundation in those grappling arts first before learning striking arts for self defense. Why? Because those arts don't rely on brute force like the striking arts, and can be performed from compromising positions, like on the back, or all fours. Furthermore, a woman practicing those arts are going to have a lot of experience practicing with men larger than themselves at full speed and power.



And proven on the battlefield.

Female US Navy Sailor Puts Rapist To Sleep With Triangle Choke In Dubai | Bjj Eastern Europe


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## Hanzou (Aug 10, 2014)

billc said:


> Hanzou, size and weight matter and brute,force,does,matter,when we are,talking about life or death, and even rape.


 

Where did I say none of that matters? Of course all of that matters, which is why women taking a grappling art is so important. They force women to fight against larger and stronger men constantly. The women at my Bjj school constantly roll with men a lot bigger than themselves, and both parties go full speed and full power the entire time. You simply cannot do that in the striking arts due to the risk of injury.



> Besides, the rapist,violated,the "gun free zone" and used a gun to subdue his victims...she on the other hand complied with the "gun free zone" and left her concealed,carry gun off campus...and out of the "gun free zone".
> 
> Besides, guns are an even greater equalizer than empty hand martial arts training...



So what exactly is the purpose behind this thread? You're asking us in a martial arts forum what a unarmed woman should do against a rapist with a gun? Well the choice is clear: She can either fight back or get raped. If she chooses to fight back, then my post above is still relevant.


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## drop bear (Aug 10, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> Wall of text..........
> 
> 
> I don't know if you're being serious, or simply blatantly homophobic here&#8230; there isn't anything in that Clockwork Orange clip about "curing homophobia" (whatever the hell that ludicrous idea could be about&#8230; there's nothing to damn well "cure"&#8230
> ...



It was a joke. 

The premis was that it is not possible to cure homosexuality with aversion therapy as evidenced by examples of bob brown and exodious folding and apologising. And the same idea strung on to clockwork orange where the aversion therapy did not work either.

(I was also going to go with the equally effective pray the gay away)

It would be a ridiculous concept to cure men of rape. Especially as a preventative which is how it would have to be used effectively.

I have no issues with gays that just means there are more girls for me.

I assume people got it but for those who didn't there it is.

Boom boom tish.

You are such a weird guy.


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## Hanzou (Aug 10, 2014)

K-man said:


> Sorry but that is false thinking. I have one student in my Krav class who is barely 5ft tall. She would have bugger all chance on the ground against a bigger guy but on her feet she can put 6ft guys on their arses. The rationale is hit first and hit hard. And, for what it's worth, nothing I teach relies on strength and speed.



Sorry, but your wunderkind isn't the norm. The norm is that someone 4'11 is at a serious height, weight, and strength disadvantage against someone who is 6', and hitting hard and hitting first is more than likely not going to end that confrontation.

I'm also disturbed by you saying that your student would have no chance on the ground against someone bigger than her. THAT is false thinking, and pretty dangerous. Regardless of her chances, she should know ground fighting in case the fight ends up there. Given that she's so small, there's a very good chance that it will.

Btw, if she's so proficient at knocking down guys so much larger than her, tell her to become a professional fighter. She should have no problem knocking out the top women fighters in the world. You both will become millionaires.


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## drop bear (Aug 10, 2014)

OK size and weight and gun-fighting and anti rape.

If you have to fight to get the gun out and into position. Say if you were ambushed. Size and weight will be a determining factor.

So a gun does not necessarily negate size and weight.


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## drop bear (Aug 10, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Sorry, but your wunderkind isn't the norm. The norm is that someone 4'11 is at a serious height, weight, and strength disadvantage against someone who is 6', and hitting hard and hitting first is more than likely not going to end that confrontation.
> 
> I'm also disturbed by you saying that your student would have no chance on the ground against someone bigger than her. THAT is false thinking, and pretty dangerous. Regardless of her chances, she should know ground fighting in case the fight ends up there. Given that she's so small, there's a very good chance that it will.
> 
> Btw, if she's so proficient at knocking down guys so much larger than her, tell her to become a professional fighter. She should have no problem knocking out the top women fighters in the world. You both will become millionaires.




It gets complicated. There is a lot of theoretical that gets applied. It is not just a force on force resisted training thing.


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## Hanzou (Aug 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> It gets complicated. There is a lot of theoretical that gets applied. It is not just a force on force resisted training thing.



I will say this with confidence; There is a low chance that the average woman can knock out or disable the average man with strikes alone. Can it be done? Certainly. I would even add that a woman trained in MA can raise that chance from low to moderate. A woman should do everything in her power to prevent a rape, including punching and kicking. However, women should add grappling to their arsenal in case the first line of defense fails, as in the case of this TKD black belt.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 10, 2014)

Leaving the political stuff out....my thoughts.

It's all of the above.

For the women (and men, because men are raped too.) to avoid being a victim:
1 - Environmental Awareness.  Be aware of your surroundings at all times. Before getting into your car, check the back seat. Have your house keys ready when exiting. Don't park in areas that are going to be dark. And so forth.

2 - Learn a solid self-defence art.  Not a sport art.  Winning trophies or a sport fight isn't the same as learning how to escape grabs, reverse locks, and inflict debilitating pain.  Anything that assumes that attackers line up and take turns is out.

3 - Where practical, go out armed.  Knife, Gun, Pepper Spray, pocket stick, audio alarms, stun gun, etc.  My keys are a weapon, one that gets past TSA screeners.  Rings can be dangerous. Etc.

4 - Be aware of where the "Bad" parts of town are, and avoid them.  (See #1)

5 - Lock all doors and windows at night. (See #1)

6 - Don't be a "Tease".  It's fine to change your mind or get cold feet.  It's not fine to deliberately lead someone on, work them up, then put the breaks on just to watch them squirm. 

7 - Use common sense and do your best to avoid putting yourself in vulnerable situations, to be able to defend yourself against attacks, and escape when possible.  

8 - Where laws or other regulations put you at a disadvantage, look for legal ways to even the odds.  (See #3)


For the men (and women, because women rape too) to avoid being the attacker:

- No means No.  Period.  "She teased me. I had a right to get off.", No, you had a right to respect the "No" and go spank it when you got home.

- Learn Respect.   Respect for others. Respect for yourself.

- "She was asking for it". No, she wasn't.  Even if she was, that is still no excuse.


You'll notice, I don't list "Dont dress provocatively" as an option.  That's because, no matter what the person is wearing, or not wearing, it's not an invitation.  Assless chaps, a half shirt and porn-star makeup isn't a request to be dragged behind a dumpster, beaten and violated.  If you think it is, you need therapy. 


For the Cops, DA's and Courts:

1 - Stop blaming the victim.  A crime was commited. A person was assaulted. They were bodily violated.  Have the decency to treat them with respect.  I don't care if the person is a 2 bit prostitute who trades BJ's for beer money.  It's still a crime. It's still assault.  If you can't grasp that, you need to change careers and let someone with human decency take your place.

2 - Treat each case as serious.  

3 - Do proper evidence collection, storage and information recording.

4 - Did I mention, treat the victim with respect and act professionally?  Comments like "I'd **** you too", or "You shouldn't have been advertising like that" are not professional, and signs that you're not fit for the job.  Your job isn't to judge the victims attire, physical attributes or choice of career. It's to deal with a sexual assault crime.

5 - Decriminalize Prostitution.  Rape shouldn't be an occupational hazard. 



My thoughts on the matter.


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## jks9199 (Aug 10, 2014)

Rape is a complex issue.  So is victim blaming, which is what this thread is really about.  Let me take each in turn... and realize that I'm really giving a superficial treatment of both issues.

First -- victim blaming.  Only in the realm of sexual assaults and rape do we try to argue that the victim has no role in preventing a crime.  We routinely advise people not to leave valuables in plain view in a parked, unattended car.  We tell them to lock their doors.  We encourage the use of security alarms.  We tell people to be aware of their environment  And nobody argues that we're blaming the victim or being unreasonable.  Nobody suggests "just teach people not to steal/rob" as a reasonable premise.  (Yes, it is part of the solution -- but that opens a whole 'nother can of worms if we get into general societal crime prevention!)  We can even tell someone who got punched in the face after being a dumbass in a bar that they were an *******, and brought it on themselves.  The offender can still be prosecuted -- but we can tell the guy he was an ***.

But if the crime in question is a rape or sexual assault...  We can't suggest that getting drunk at a party filled with horny kids is unwise.  We can't suggest that maybe walking down that particular street at that particular hour was unwise.  We can't tell someone that by flirting with the offender for an hour, they helped to set themselves up.  If you attempt to suggest that the victim bears any responsibility for prevention -- you're "victim blaming" and as bad as the offender.  In the case of rape, we've even created a really bizarre double standard targeting men.  A guy and girl both are drinking at a party, get equally drunk, and sleep together.  In the morning, the guy might get arrested for rape because the girl was too drunk to consent.  Even if she initiated everything, and without considering that he was just as drunk and therefore unable to judge her ability to consent. 

 Please, note, I am in absolutely no way suggesting that the ultimate and primary responsibility for a rape or sexual battery lies with the offender.  No must mean no, even if you've been flirted with mercilessly for hours.  It doesn't matter what's been done, or how far things have gone, no or stop means just that, immediately.  (Though you can't roll the clock back before the no was said, assuming that everything was consensual to that point.)

Chris brought up some of the complexity of rape.  I'll propose that just like there're social and asocial forms of violence -- there are social and asocial forms of rape.  Social rapes or sexual batteries cover the range from misunderstood signals leading to an undesired kiss through date rape.  These might be an unwelcome grope during a dance, too.  These are the ones that Chris suggests are probably unreported, and where the offender could very reasonably believe they did nothing wrong, or at least that it wasn't rape.  You can educate both parties so that these are less likely.  Potential victims can learn not to send unclear signals and to stay alert; potential offenders can be taught to recognize the messages and helped to understand.

There's no question that an asocial rape is a rape.  No matter the tactics used -- these are about the offender committing rape, and the victim's role is simple that of target.  Ted Bundy was able to be charming and seem nice to get his victim to drop their guard, but that ploy was really nothing different than fisherman using a fake fly to snare a trout.  Preventing these is all about teaching the victim to be aware, to recognize the set-ups, and developing self defense skills because you're not going to "teach <this> man not to rape."  He knows it's wrong, and he just doesn't care.  He knows what he wants, and he's going to get it.


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## Steve (Aug 10, 2014)

Lol.  Okay.  So the political question on the table is whether or how society could teach men not to rape.  

My political opinion is that you cannot deter a person who has some emotional or psychological chip broken that compels him to rape.   But you can teach men to recognize mysogeny when they see it.   

And to answer the unstated question, yeah.  You're very smart bill and sure showed that dumb liberal over there.  Nice job. I can't wait to hear how you get them with the 2nd amendment rhetoric.


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## Tgace (Aug 10, 2014)

Stop rape?

May as well make stopping murder, theft and war objectives.

Nothing is ever going to "stop".

Other than that, anything I would add would just be repeating what JKS said above...

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 10, 2014)

i have been teaching and writing on line about rape defense for years.  i am not going to go into a 5 page disertation here but for the most part the belief most people have including martial artists is complete made up fiction.  
as usual Chirs Parker has a very thoughtfull well written post.  but still this is not the entire picture. i do agree with most of what chris wrote.  i would like to add that the reality is even more complex than that.



> Rape is a crime of opportunity


this comment is not accurate but is also not 100 % wrong.  there are clasifications for serial rapists and there is a small sub-sect that fall under the opportunity rape, usually a home invasion/ bugerlary where the opportunity is there as a secondary crime. but it is totaly inaccurate as a blanket statement.

any defense put forth must take into account that the majority of rapes are commited by someone the victim knows.  we can generally divide rapists into two groups, the ones who the victim knows and the ones she doesnt in most cases if she doesnt know the perpetrador then he is a serial rapist, even if this is his first attempt (these are formaly catagorized also but ill deal with that later) .    for this thread and to make my point lets assume that the term and crime, serial rapists can also be associated as a serial killer since serial rapists often kill their victim. so how often does a women find herself facing a serial killer?  not often. so the boogie man model of self defense and handgun solution while idealistic is not reality.  you can arm every women in the world with a loaded handgun but she will not use it against ...her step father, brothers friend, sisters boyfriend, best friends older brother, co-worker ect ,,,  you get the point.  i am very pro-gun but i am also realistic about the human psychology of using lethal force.  
there is an alarming growing trend of rape. however it is not clear if the crime is being commited more often or if it is a refection of more crimes being reported.  my opinion is that amoung younger men the crime is being commited more often.  there is an internet generation culture where phone pics, "sexting", "sefies", and "cam chatting" has paved the way for "upskirts" pics and other non- consensual acts of sexual behavior becoming accepted.   
in many of these senarios martial arts training does not factor into its prevention.  in other cases where there is physical violence your every day martial art falls very short of preparing the women for the intensity of sheer brutal violence. martial art training pales when held beside the reality.


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## Hanzou (Aug 10, 2014)

hoshin1600 said:


> in many of these senarios martial arts training does not factor into its prevention.  in other cases where there is physical violence your every day martial art falls very short of preparing the women for the intensity of sheer brutal violence. martial art training pales when held beside the reality.



While I agree with that, I still think its vital for women to arm themselves with martial arts. I also stick by my original assertion that Judo or Bjj would be the ideal unarmed self defense methods to counter a rape-style attack. I would also probably edge Bjj a bit ahead of Judo due to Bjj's more intense focus on fighting from positions of weakness (i.e. on the back, on your side, on all fours, etc.). 

While no art can mirror reality completely, again I believe that rolling with burly men day in and day out at combat speed will make a woman a lot more effective at handling herself when a burly man is on top of her trying to take her pants off. These arts will also allow this woman to subdue her attacker without permanently injuring him (if she so desires of course).


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## donald1 (Aug 10, 2014)

billc said:


> It wasn't rhetorical...I am just curious what answers there may be besides "teach men not to rape."  I believe most men already know that it is wrong to rape, and I don't think you can teach the bad guys not too...I think you have to make them stop...



I don't think they want to learn some people make excuses to believe the wrong is acceptable in some situation.  But maybe some people just don't care and only see their side of the story


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## Transk53 (Aug 10, 2014)

donald1 said:


> I don't think they want to learn some people make excuses to believe the wrong is acceptable in some situation.  But maybe some people just don't care and only see their side of the story



I concur, you can no longer teach a common thief that they are doing wrong. It is all habitual, if one man creates an idea that violating women and the womb is acceptable, then is only one recourse. Take away the ability, you have to quash the urge. Cut them off and be done with it, if they are psychologically scared, so be it!


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 10, 2014)

> I believe that rolling with burly men day in and day out at combat speed will make a woman a lot more effective at handling herself when a burly man is on top of her trying to take her pants off.



this is true BJJ will make a women more skilled at wrestling with a man.  but martial artists have a hollywood  picture in their heads about how a rape will happen and a fantasy response to that attack.  reality says otherwise.
case:
The Power Assertive rapist.
a woman has finished her grocery shopping and is putting her bags in the trunk of her car. it is about 2:00 in the afternoon. a car pulls up next to her but pays no attention because it is a parking lot. a man steps out of the car and is in a rage.  before she realizes he is there, he punches her repeatly in the back as he holds her head down into the trunk of the car. he continues to bash her head untill she is almost unconscious.  he then proceeds to tear off her skirt and rapes her as he continually bashes her in the back of the head.  the entire crime only took 5 minutes.  store cameras caught the license plate and he was later arrested.  

how does your gun, mace, stun gun, martial arts or BJJ fantasy hold up to this real life crime?  do you really think what you teach in your classes prepare someone for this?
these fantasy defenses and hollywood style crimes are not real.  ask yourself what does a rape look like in your head and imagination, then ask yourself where did this image come from?  unless you do case studies you are probably very wrong in your assumptions.


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## Hanzou (Aug 10, 2014)

hoshin1600 said:


> this is true BJJ will make a women more skilled at wrestling with a man.  but martial artists have a hollywood  picture in their heads about how a rape will happen and a fantasy response to that attack.  reality says otherwise.
> case:
> The Power Assertive rapist.
> a woman has finished her grocery shopping and is putting her bags in the trunk of her car. it is about 2:00 in the afternoon. a car pulls up next to her but pays no attention because it is a parking lot. a man steps out of the car and is in a rage.  before she realizes he is there, he punches her repeatly in the back as he holds her head down into the trunk of the car. he continues to bash her head untill she is almost unconscious.  he then proceeds to tear off her skirt and rapes her as he continually bashes her in the back of the head.  the entire crime only took 5 minutes.  store cameras caught the license plate and he was later arrested.
> ...



We're not looking at it in terms of "Hollywood" rape. We're looking at it from the perspective of being able to fight back. Clearly every scenario doesn't provide that oppurtunity. That doesn't mean that women (and men) shouldn't be prepared if such an oppurtunity presents itself.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 10, 2014)

hoshin1600 said:


> i have been teaching and writing on line about rape defense for years.  i am not going to go into a 5 page disertation here but for the most part the belief most people have including martial artists is complete made up fiction.
> as usual Chirs Parker has a very thoughtfull well written post.  but still this is not the entire picture. i do agree with most of what chris wrote.  i would like to add that the reality is even more complex than that.
> 
> 
> ...


Don't limit the word, opportunity, to serial rapists. First time rapists, friends, and co-workers are presented with it too. I'm sure you have lots to offer, but I am just telling you what they teach in school. If they say on the news that certain parts of town are high rape areas, rape will actually go up in that area. They have studied this stuff, they know, and I still say it is a crime of opportunity.


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 10, 2014)

Hanzou, just to clarify i am not actually disagreeing with you about training or saying anything personal to you.  i am speeking in a general sense.  when i speek of a hollywood style assault i didnt say you in specific please dont take it personal if i came across that way.  what i said was martial artists.  instructors for years have used hypothetical senarios to teach self defense.  
your comment was...


> We're not looking at it in terms of "Hollywood" rape


my question to everyone is , are you sure?  it has been said the number one rule of training is to not assume.  we all make assumptions.  many martial art instructors teach a womens self defense or a rape defense type of class.  as i read posts in this thread i am not so sure about your comment.
i posted that specific case because it defies many stereo typical assumption.  it was not in a "scary" isolated spot.  it was not dark and late at night.  the victim was not laying on her back. she did not have any access to defend.  no one came to her rescue.  there was no "interview" stage or warning of the impending attack. ect..
yes every situation is different.  but i have heard MA instuctors saying "your attacker is going to..... when you are in this position.... you can do this..."  it drives me nuts whenever i hear things like that.  they are making assumptions on how an assault happens and what responses can be used.  
1.  have you ever been raped?
2. have you ever done case studies on what happens and what actions where taken during a rape?
3. have you ever done first hand interviews with the victims of a rape?
if the answer for these is no then we can reasonably say that you (general sense) have no idea what can be expected or might happen.  thus my previous posts question..


> ask yourself what does a rape look like in your head and imagination, then ask yourself where did this image come from?


when a martial arts instuctors decides to teach a womens class that person is also taking on the resposibility to give honest accurate information.  is it unreasonable to expect that the instructor do their due diligence and actually study the known facts on the topic in which they are going to teach?


> That doesn't mean that women (and men) shouldn't be prepared if such an oppurtunity presents itself.


absolutely!  but how do you prepare if you are not familiar with the senario?


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 10, 2014)

Touch of death,  maybe semantics are getting in the way.   when you say "rape is a crime of opportunity" this to me implies that there was no intent untill that opportunity presents itself.   that it was incidental. while this does happen, like i pointed out that it even has its own sub catagory in law enforcement, that more often then not the intent was there prior.  to say that rape is only based on opportunity is to diminsh the intent and put an undeserved bias of responsibilty on the victim.  with that logic " if she did not present the opportunity the rape would never have happened".  we know that this is not the case.


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 10, 2014)

> I am just telling you what they teach in school. If they say on the news that certain parts of town are high rape areas, rape will actually go up in that area.


so i am curious about your opinion.  why do you think this happens?


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 10, 2014)

> the NWS gathered information about new cases that happened to adult women during the two-year follow up period. This information on the 41 such cases provides excellent information about the breakdown for new rapes experienced by adult women (Kilpatrick, Resnick, Saunders, & Best, 1998) (Dohrenwend book chapter).
> 
> 24.4% of offenders were strangers.
> 21.9% were husbands.
> ...



https://www.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/sa.shtml


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## Hanzou (Aug 10, 2014)

hoshin1600 said:


> Hanzou, just to clarify i am not actually disagreeing with you about training or saying anything personal to you.  i am speeking in a general sense.  when i speek of a hollywood style assault i didnt say you in specific please dont take it personal if i came across that way.



I'm not taking anything personal. I'm just a bit annoyed by the constant moving of the goal posts. 



> when a martial arts instuctors decides to teach a womens class that person is also taking on the resposibility to give honest accurate information.  is it unreasonable to expect that the instructor do their due diligence and actually study the known facts on the topic in which they are going to teach?
> 
> absolutely!  but how do you prepare if you are not familiar with the senario?



There are thousands of scenarios. It's impossible to train for every single possible scenario that you could encounter. All you can do is hope your training encompasses as many potential scenarios as possible.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 10, 2014)

hoshin1600 said:


> so i am curious about your opinion.  why do you think this happens?


It ties in to what someone else said just now, most men don't believe themselves to be bad people, but one in four have a propensity to do it. This number goes even higher in times of war. I recently read that the battle of Berlin was ended with the largest mass rape in world history; and, those were good men. So my point is that we can lay the blame on men, and I don't think we can socialize our way out of it. So, getting back to my point we limit the opportunity in every way possible. Western culture used to just accept this as a present sickness of the human condition, and sought to keep the sexes separate. There were women's colleges and even the children were kept apart, but that was then and this is now. 
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 10, 2014)

There is another thing about just men in general. When they go up to Alaska to work in the fishing industry, a lot of those first timers just go nuts. They no longer have their friends and family holding them to a real or imaginary standard, and all bets are off! I'm sure they even have a name for it, but I don't happen to know it.


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## Urban Trekker (Jun 4, 2021)

billc said:


> Well, over on the political sister site I posted about three women who have started a new group to help women learn self defense, in particular with guns.  One of the founders,is the woman who was raped 50 feet from the college police station after the police station had closed for the evening.
> 
> In response to this post, someone gave the reply..."Teach men not to rape."
> 
> ...



I realize that I'm reanimating a corpse of a thread here, but here goes: the intent is not to get you to teach other men to not rape, the intent is to shut you up.

Your possible responses are:

1.  To agree to their suggestion, but now you're a toady.
2.  To not agree to it, and explain why.  The problem is that if you do; now you're making lame excuses.  That, or you're exposing yourself as someone who lacks the basic social skills necessary to persuade others, and is therefore someone no longer worth engaging in conversation with.
3.  To not agree to it and give no explanation.  Now you're just an a-hole contributing to the problem.
4.  No response.  They win.

So you've gotta find ways around this.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 4, 2021)

Thread locked. Political discussion needs to be taken to our sister site over at http://www.usmessageboard.com/


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