# Katana



## Fiendlover (Mar 1, 2008)

ok so my katana sucks.  the inside of my sheath always gets wax on my blade and the butt of my handle keeps falling off so i need a new one.  

my question is where i can i buy one that includes the three set and where i can a get a really good one thats not going to cost me an arm and a leg.  um i would prefer actual places and not websites because i want to see it b4 i purchase it.  thanks


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## Blindside (Mar 1, 2008)

Fiendlover said:


> o
> my question is where i can i buy one that includes the three set and where i can a get a really good one thats not going to cost me an arm and a leg.


 
Generally, you can't, though swinging around a cheap one may literally cost you an arm or leg.

Can you define a price range?

Lamont


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## Sukerkin (Mar 1, 2008)

This is not going to be advice you want to hear, *Fiend* as you are not going to get anywhere playing around with wallhangers and the 'three-set' you're speaking of is classic wallhanger {expletive deleted}.  _Please_, I implore you, don't play around with decorator quality SLO's - you may be lucky but the odds are there for you to hurt either yourself or someone else when it comes apart on you.

A safe-ish quality, basic, non-sharp, non-steel, iaito is going to cost in the region of £150-£200 (double the numbers for Dollar ball-park).  A good one a *lot* more.  

My iaito is balanced to replicate an identical shinken and is sized correctly for me.  I got it cheap at £350 (then shipping on top of that) from Tozando because they had a blade ready made that was the right size from a cancelled order.  A shinken of equivalent quality is looking to cost me more than £1000 as I cast about looking for one before the law changes over here.

As you specifically request 'local only' there's not a lot I can do to advise you other than that which I've already mentioned.  I can't even say "Go to a martial arts store" as they're as guilty as anyone else of selling sword-shaped ornaments.

Your best bet is to look for an iaido school in your region, get accepted (if they're koryu joining is not automatic) and get advice from there as to where to find a sword.

One note, before you think that I'm being unfair and snobby - nearly *all* of us in our school started out waving wallhangers around in our living room before seeking training, so there's nothing to be embarassed about.  Just don't continue using such things now you know what a katana (whether live-blade or iaito) should be like (and costs).


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## exile (Mar 1, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> This is not going to be advice you want to hear, *Fiend* as you are not going to get anywhere playing around with wallhangers and the 'three-set' you're speaking of is classic wallhanger {expletive deleted}.  _Please_, I implore you, don't play around with decorator quality SLO's - you may be lucky but the odds are there for you to hurt either yourself or someone else when it comes apart on you.
> 
> A safe-ish quality, basic, non-sharp, non-steel, iaito is going to cost in the region of £150-£200 (double the numbers for Dollar ball-park).  A good one a *lot* more.
> 
> ...



I'm just a guest on this forum, but I heartily second Sukerkin's point. Be guided by his advice&#8212;quality may _well_ cost you and arm and a leg. 

A great live blade can easily run you more thousands of dollars than there are letters in your username, and then some. Even a very good practice blade, with the right weighting and handling characteristics, will (and _should_) be running you near, at or well into the four figure range. 

That's just the way it is, alas...


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## grydth (Mar 1, 2008)

I third Sukerkin's advice, which I pray you will listen to. 

Katana incidents are not pretty. Parts falling off indicate, "Unsafe! Danger!"

I, also, did well with Tozando. Check out the site. Better to save, wait and get a fine item than bear the consequences.


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## LuzRD (Mar 1, 2008)

http://www.chenessinc.com/
http://www.oniforge.com/
http://www.casiberia.com/cat_japanese.asp (order from Themeditativewarrior@comcast.net for discount)

not knowing your budget, training or your intentions for the katana i imagine its hard to suggest specifics. the links i provided are (to my understanding) where to get practical (SHARP) blades that are some of the lower priced usable swords that ive heard of.

i have not purchased any katana from anywhere, however these are the places that i would go to and not break the bank on what are by reputation pretty good swords.

the 3rd link "casiberia" is the manufacturer (ive just recently heard of. so i would suggest that you get feedback from people who are familiar with them) and the email address is a dealer who has a special right now (advertised on kutaki "a bujinkan website"). if you reference "the papa san offer" they will take 10% off the MSRP from any Japanese Sword and 50% of the profit will go to Ed "Papa San" Martin (a bujinkan shihan) to help his family while he recovers from heart surgery.


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## jks9199 (Mar 1, 2008)

Fiendlover said:


> ok so my katana sucks.  the inside of my sheath always gets wax on my blade and the butt of my handle keeps falling off so i need a new one.
> 
> my question is where i can i buy one that includes the three set and where i can a get a really good one thats not going to cost me an arm and a leg.  um i would prefer actual places and not websites because i want to see it b4 i purchase it.  thanks


I've got a couple of comments.  Take 'em or leave 'em as you wish.

First... Barring the very, very rare freak yard sale event, you get what you pay for.  Buy a 3-sword set that's "only" a couple of hundred dollars, and you won't get much beyond pot metal and crappy wood.  Spend that same couple of hundred bucks on a single, good quality sword, and you'll have a blade you can train and work with for years.

Second... Before you spend money on a live blade, buy a decent boken.  Learn to use the boken properly before you inadvertently slip a body part into the path of the blade.  Bruises are far more preferable to amputations...

Third... which should probably be first...  Don't try to learn on your own.  Get proper, personal instruction.  And I bet your instructor will be able to tell you where to get a sword WHEN YOU'RE READY.


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## Fiendlover (Mar 1, 2008)

hmmmmmmm i was thinking along the lines of in the $100's and i already have a decent bokken and ive been taught with both.   alright i agree to getting one good katana instead of three crappy ones because my other 2 r fine its just the katana (the one i use the most) that sux but i kinda wanted it all matching but i guess ill scratch that idea.  
btw ur advice is appreciated whether good or bad.


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## Decker (Mar 5, 2008)

Is there any way to tell a decent iaito from an SLO, apart from price? A shop I get my MA stuff from sells a relatively cheap and very dull-looking (compared to decorative SLOs) sword they called an iaito.

If I'm not wrong, we're supposed to be looking for a full tang (among others that I've forgotten) for a sword to be considered a non-SLO, right? I'm pretty sure that needs disassembly, and I don't know how to disassemble a sword, nor whether the shop would allow it...

Said iaito costs about US$172's equivalent in SGD.

Thanks.


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## cdunn (Mar 5, 2008)

Decker said:


> Is there any way to tell a decent iaito from an SLO, apart from price? A shop I get my MA stuff from sells a relatively cheap and very dull-looking (compared to decorative SLOs) sword they called an iaito.
> 
> If I'm not wrong, we're supposed to be looking for a full tang (among others that I've forgotten) for a sword to be considered a non-SLO, right? I'm pretty sure that needs disassembly, and I don't know how to disassemble a sword, nor whether the shop would allow it...
> 
> ...


 
An iaito is just a sword used to practice iaido, though, it is often used to sell dull steel practice blades, differentiating them from live cutting blades.

The store should be able to disclose to you the kind of steel or alloy that the sword is made of. If it's stainless, it's probably a deal breaker - Stainless needs some exotic treatment to handle the stresses of a sword. Most good iaito are going to be made of either 1000 series steel ("spring" steel), or aluminum-zinc alloys, while a shinken, a live sword, is going to be some form of 1000 series steel, or preferably, traditional folded steel. 

The tsuka - the handle - should tightly wrapped with a silk or leather ito - the wrapping cord. Between the folds of the cord, you should be able to see either one or two bamboo pins, called mekugi. If you push the mekugi through, you shoule be able to slide the tsuba off of the tang, though it should be a tight fit. The tang should seem like a continuation of the blade in a katana, and any shoulders in the blade to the tang should be rounded. You should not need to remove the endcap - if you have to to get at a bolt, the sword is not traditionally constructed, and probably has a 'rat tail' tang, which can break during normal performance of kata. If the tang looks cracked or welded, it probably is, and you don't want it.

There are, of course, about ten million other factors, but those are the first to look at. But the first place to check is always your instructor.


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## Blindside (Mar 5, 2008)

Decker said:


> If I'm not wrong, we're supposed to be looking for a full tang (among others that I've forgotten) for a sword to be considered a non-SLO, right?


 
Traditionally made katanas do not/did not have a full tang.


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## cdunn (Mar 5, 2008)

Blindside said:


> Traditionally made katanas do not/did not have a full tang.


 
Expanding on this for Decker: The tang should be about 2/3rds the length of the tsuka, plus or minus. What it can't be is welded on rod or bar.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 5, 2008)

*Decker*, as with any purchase that is relatively expensive, knowledge is your friend and the best way of getting that is a friend with knowledge.  In the case of potentially dangerous and expensive purchses, such as a sword, then the best friend of all is your sensei and fellow students.

If you are buying an SLO for decorative purposes then any advice here is redundant.  If you're buying a sword to 'play' with because you're interested, you are very strongly encouraged to go an enroll at a JSA school.  They will have all the information about what is suitable and what is not.

As a visual guide, not very useful really but a starting point:

http://www.tozandoshop.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=NT_XT2

This is what a beginner-ish level iaito might look like.

This is what a dangerous piece might look like:

http://www.blades-uk.com/large_pic.php?product_id=2139

Can't really tell much from pictures on the Net and no amount of description will help either.

Trust me, whilst looking for a school I spent a lot of money buying _expensive_ rubbish because I didn't know any better.  Once you've been around the real thing for a while you'll learn to judge what is good and what is not - there simply is no substitute for experience and that only comes from a good sensei at a good dojo (or parting with a great deal of cash 0.


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## Fiendlover (Mar 5, 2008)

wow thankx for the advice.  it is much appreciated.


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## chinto (Mar 5, 2008)

http://www.chenessinc.com/

i have 2 katana from that company.. both have been very good blades at reasonable prices.


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## shesulsa (Mar 6, 2008)

Admin. Note: Thread moved from General Weapons Discussion to Sword Arts Talk.

G Ketchmark - shesulsa
MT Assist. Administrator


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## Charles Mahan (Mar 6, 2008)

For those recommending that our young friend find an instructor in his area, you're probably going to run into problems.

From his profile.


> I train at Red Dragon karate studio and my Shihan is Chris Casamassa.


 
Presumably his instructor approved of the previous junker he was training with.


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## cstanley (Mar 7, 2008)

Our instructor required that we obtain, preferably, a true katana. We were sent scurrying  to antique shops, placing want ads, etc. Many of us found gunto (our instructor has contacts for people that will re-furnish swords and saya), and some of us found quite old, valuable swords. Depending on how old and how valuable, he would or would not allow us to draw it until we had achieved a degree of skill and an understanding of how to care for the sword. Some of us were lucky and found WWII era swords for a couple of hundred bucks. Then, we figured 800 to 1000 for re-furnishing and minimal polishing (and this was in the 80's). Others of us spent several thousand bucks on older swords. 
The other option was a high quality modern iai to. Good ones are not cheap, but they are more affordable than old ones in full polish. A couple of guys found modern sword makers and purchased swords from them...again, not cheap.
Obviously, our class was very small...about 5 students. My point is this, if you are serious about learning iaido/kenjutsu it will not be cheap initially. Anything worth doing is worth doing well and properly. 

If you are serious about kenjutsu, find a good instructor and a good class. This may not be easy to do, depending on where you are. I know students who drive 100 miles or so twice a week to train. Do some research about the traditional ryu...don't get taken in by the "Johnny Hanshi's down by the gas station." 

Kenjutsu is hard to learn. It is even harder to become really skilled at. (no, I am not skilled at it, but have trained a while). Do not be fooled by people doing karate or kempo while holding a sword. They are not swordsmen.

If you are not willing to invest at least a thousand dollars or so in a good sword, don't even consider it. The BB magazine, Sharper Image, Century swords are garbage plain and simple. They are for businessmen to keep on display in their office or lobby in order to give the false impression of sophistication or for HS kids to keep in their room and fantasize about.

Good luck!


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## Sukerkin (Mar 7, 2008)

Charles Mahan said:


> For those recommending that our young friend find an instructor in his area, you're probably going to run into problems.
> 
> From his profile.
> 
> ...


 
Aye, Charles, I didn't like to say anything specific so as not to offend ... I might have been being a bit *too* subtle when I snuck in the 'find a JSA school' bit .

That really is the key thing for anyone wanting to learn one of the sword arts - go and get accepted at a school the sole purpose of which is the teaching of those arts.  

I intend no slight or derisory comment when I say that the little bits of sword work seen in Karate and Aikido dojo do not really represent what the JSA are like.  If anything, they represent what a _bad_ swordsman would do, for against a good, properly trained swordsman, many of the anti-weapon techniques are a last ditch effort when you have nothing to lose by trying i.e. the training is for those occaisions where you have a chance of success.


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## howard (Mar 7, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> I intend no slight or derisory comment when I say that the little bits of sword work seen in Karate and Aikido dojo do not really represent what the JSA are like.  If anything, they represent what a _bad_ swordsman would do, for against a good, properly trained swordsman, many of the anti-weapon techniques are a last ditch effort when you have nothing to lose by trying i.e. the training is for those occaisions where you have a chance of success.


Hi Sukerkin,

I suspect that legitimate Aikidoka will take exception to part of your comment.

For context, it's worth noting that the founder of Aikido, as a licensed teacher of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, had considerable experience with the sword. Also, the sword art Ono Ha Itto Ryu was an integral part of Daito-ryu training in those days. In fact, Tokimune Takeda said on record that one cannot learn Daito-ryu without a thorough knowledge of the sword. His father, Sokaku, was a very accomplished swordsman, and was the primary one who integrated sword work into the unarmed techniques of Daito-ryu.

Many of Daito-ryu's techniques were originally defenses against sword attacks, or against attempts by an attacker to neutralize your ability to wield your own sword. Again, for a bit of context, when you sit in seiza in Daito-ryu, you fold your thumbs into your palm, to protect them from the tactic of severing the thumb to prevent the enemy from being able to use his sword.

If you'd like to see an example of fine integration of sword techniques into an art that is closely related to Daito-ryu, search youtube for clips with Don Angier sensei, the headmaster of Yanagi ryu. There's one from the 70s that includes sword offense, sword defense and unarmed techniques against unarmed enemies, and against sword attacks.


I'm not familiar enough with modern Aikido to comment on how it has evolved from its origins, but Ueshiba's original art definitely included viable sword defenses and influence from offensive sword techniques that are representative of what was going on in JSA during his time.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 7, 2008)

Not a problem, *Howard*.  

It is ever going to be impossible to make a one-size-fits all comment when talking about any art and that becomes even worse when we start to think about arts that intermix .

We can only ever speak from our own experiences and observations (and those of our teachers) and our words are opinions not facts at the end of the day.

I sense that a thread might be in the making on this but I'm at work right now so I can't be starting it until tonight at the soonest ... and I've just had a call from reception thelling me that my cars got a puncture  ... ever had one of those days when you regret getting out of bed :lol:.


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## jks9199 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think Sukerkin's comment was a reasonable, broad assessment about a lot of aikido and karate schools.  Even though founders of the arts may have had a solid background, the art in question isn't a sword art.  Generally, enough ends up being taught or passed along to go through a few kata or drills, but that's not the same thing as real training with the sword.  I've seen aikido and karate students swing a bokken around with little concept of the cutting motion -- just like I've seen students in both throw "puches" during kata, one-steps, or similar exercises that wouldn't scare -- let alone harm! -- a fly.  Nor does that limited training necessarily involve training in the assessment of the quality of a blade.  Of course, there are schools that are the exception, where the students really learn the traditional sword art along with aikido or jujitsu or karate.  But they are exceptions...

I know enough of the use of several blades to apply them, and to go through a form with them.  I don't claim to be an expert in them.  Of those, I'd feel confident assessing perhaps three or four types of blades, most of which are related to each other.  I'd be absolutely out of my depth assessing a katana -- though I probably can recognize the difference between a very good blade and a very bad blade.  I've owned they apochryphal "sword like object" or wall hanger, so I can recognize one of them...


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## Fiendlover (Mar 7, 2008)

Charles Mahan said:


> For those recommending that our young friend find an instructor in his area, you're probably going to run into problems.
> 
> From his profile.
> 
> ...


 
hmmmm.  i bought my katana and ive only been to three classes with it and my shihan wasnt the one teaching the class so he didnt expect it nor did he sell it.  another sensei sold it to me.  but today i was told that the sword i hav is *for show and to be mounted on a wall*.  he told me to call headquarters where *my sensei*  gets his sword straight from japan nd they are strictly made for battle.  they're supposed to be very high quality swords and knowing my sensei id believe him.

*PS. im a female thank you.*


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## Sukerkin (Mar 8, 2008)

Nice to see another lass taking an interest in the sword arts :tup:.

The good advice given in previous posts still stands tho'.  If you want to learn how to use a katana go to a dojo where that is what they teach.  Of course, if your karate sensei holds grade in iai or somesuch then that is a moot point .

One small aside tho', to refer to any sword, not just a katana, in terms akin to 'battle ready' is a warning sign - it's an advertising term and one best avoided as it's not well thought of.


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## tahuti (Mar 8, 2008)

Practical demonstration what bad sword is:


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## Fiendlover (Mar 8, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Nice to see another lass taking an interest in the sword arts :tup:.
> 
> The good advice given in previous posts still stands tho'.  If you want to learn how to use a katana go to a dojo where that is what they teach.  Of course, if your karate sensei holds grade in iai or somesuch then that is a moot point .
> 
> One small aside tho', to refer to any sword, not just a katana, in terms akin to 'battle ready' is a warning sign - it's an advertising term and one best avoided as it's not well thought of.



thank you.  lasses rock lol. yeah sensei and shihan do hold grades in katana teaching and my sensei is a friend of mine and he knows swords so i know he wouldnt sell me a bad one.  hed check it over for me first.


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## Fiendlover (Mar 8, 2008)

tahuti said:


> Practical demonstration what bad sword is:



oh that sucks!  but thats what he gets for trying to sell that lol


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## jks9199 (Mar 8, 2008)

Fiendlover said:


> thank you.  lasses rock lol. yeah sensei and shihan do hold grades in katana teaching and my sensei is a friend of mine and he knows swords so i know he wouldnt sell me a bad one.  hed check it over for me first.


What is "katana teaching"?

There are several (maybe several dozen!) extant schools of Japanese swordsmanship.  Each has its own name, and its own special techniques or tactics.  If you're interested in learning  a Japanese sword art, I'd think that learning the name of the art you'll be taught would rank pretty high in importance -- or at least learning the specific origin of the created style you're learning.

Of course, I'm also more than a little shocked that anyone would let you use a wall hanger to learn a Japanese sword art without inspecting it...


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## howard (Mar 8, 2008)

Just in case anybody's interested, here's the Yanagi ryu clip I referred to above.






This is a classic example of the integration of sword techniques into empty-hand techniques, which you'll see in few arts these days. Mr Angier is one of the best. The sword work, like the Aikijujutsu, is top-notch.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 8, 2008)

Thanks for the link, *Howard*.  I'm not all the way through it yet but have seen the initial 'swordwork' segment.  

It highlights the problem we all have when discussing our arts, in that I'm not qualified to judge whether it's good or bad as it's quite different from Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, which is what I study.  

From an MJER perspective there were things that I saw that do not sit comfortably with what I have been taught (e.g. 'weak' grip one handed rear thrusts); even the katana design was 'incorrect' (tsuka far too long and blades too long for the practitioners size) .

That doesn't mean it was bad, just different from what I do.  Plus, I'm notoriously critical (especially of my own performance), even having the cheek to point out minute faults which high Dan grades in my own art commit to video :lol:.

There is also the point that video is never going to substitute for being there and observing.  Feeling the zanshin and seme within a kata is a whole lot different than watching the moves on tele .  After all, on video, I look terrible ... what? ... I don't understand? ... you mean I *am* that bad? :faints:.


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## howard (Mar 9, 2008)

Hi Sukerkin,

Yes, it's different from MJER. But it was a proven sword method, in that it was used in real combat.

The very long tsuka is characteristic of Yanagi-ryu. I don't know nearly enough about its history to explain why.

The thing I most like about the clip is that one can see the relationship between the sword techniques and the Aikijujutsu techniques. For example, the sword vs. sword defense of stepping into your enemy's right side, cutting diagonally upward across his body, continuing your step through, under his right arm, pivoting and cutting downward diagonally across his back is represented movement for movement in the Aikijujutsu technique known as _shihonage_ (which differs from Aikido's version of the technique with the same name).

I realize this point is not really on topic, but to my eye, Angier sensei's Aikijujutsu is at a very high level indeed. His is a very interesting and unique history.

Nice chatting with you. :asian:


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## Sukerkin (Mar 9, 2008)

Swordwork from different ryu and different genres is always fascinating to me as viewing it can show you that there's truth in the old adage that "there's only so many ways to skin a cat".  

For example, the movements you described above sound very similar in intent to an Eishin ryu Batto Ho kata called "Shatto".

It can also open your eyes with surprise at an application of the sword to a situation that you had not come across before - that's never a bad thing either.

I do, reluctantly, concur that we've strayed away from the OP at this juncture but also agree that it's been nice to chat, especially in the sword forums for a change .  Hopefully this is the start of a new trend and we sword-slingers (of any ilk) can get a few posts going in our fora :tup:.


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## Senjojutsu (Mar 11, 2008)

&#8220;Muto-dori&#8221; is the general Japanese term used describing disarming techniques against a swordsman opponent while being unarmed. In full disclosure mode, it is also a current thread over on SFI with JSA adherents about this very subject.

There are historical tales of famous sword masters, who appeared to have honed this muto-dori skills and could perform it in &#8220;demonstrations&#8221; &#8211; and some war story examples. But overall I feel the cold-hearted Bushi class always thought of it as a last ditch effort. As in - it beats dying, but you probably will end up dead. Warfare isn&#8217;t about sportsmanship and fair play - it&#8217;s about defeating your enemy. If you happened to end up unarmed on a battlefield, duel or during an attack, well, we now call that having a bad day at the office. And the military mind, back then and now, should train for worse case scenarios; try staying awake all night, have no food or water, strenuously working out for 4-5 hours, then try out your techniques (on a muddy field). Or some &#8220;muto-dori&#8221; techniques were derived from both opponents being armed - but the distance was closed to armpit-to-armpit thereby limiting long sword cutting techniques and leading to grappling movements.

Which is why I want to talk about the different perspectives presented in some previous posts.

To the unarmed martial styles, as in Aikido and Daito Ryu, usage of these muto dori techniques help &#8220;validate&#8221; their art&#8217;s effectiveness. Like, see me using this technique I can defeat my fellow stylist who is armed & attacking with a sword.

To the JSA-centric artists if practicing muto dori techniques, they use it as a &#8220;verification&#8221; of the obvious - the house odds are clearly on the man holding the long, sharp, pointy thingy. Their mindset, distancing and movements are that of a swordsman. If I had to place a wager out of my wallet, I would place money on the most experience swordsman successfully using a muto dori technique, not the most experienced Aiki practioner. 

Doesn&#8217;t mean it can&#8217;t be done &#8211; just very, *very *unlikely &#8211; I mean the best team doesn&#8217;t always win on the field, _e.g.,_ February 3rd, 2008, Phoenix, Arizona. 

Sorry, some cuts will never heal.
:wink1:


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## Sukerkin (Mar 11, 2008)

That's an excellently worded post, *Senjo*.  It was the point I was trying to make but I failed the eloquence challenge .

The techniques are not worthless, far from it but they are far from a 'safe bet' unless there's a disparity in skill levels.  It's still a shot worth taking if it's the only one left to you tho'.

When I talked about "bad swordsman" in my earlier post, I did not mean to imply that the art had only bad swordsmen but rather that the openings presented for the aikido techniques would be generally present only when the swordsman made a mistake or was less skilled.

As an example, in watching the video linked by *Howard* I could see the sacrifice of kensen that was happening in the disarming demonstrations i.e. the sword wielder was pulling the sword back and away from Sensei, thus presenting the opening, rather than keeping the threat present during furikaburi.  It still wouldn't be impossible to come in under the blade but I wouldn't like to try it .


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## howard (Mar 11, 2008)

Senjojutsu said:


> To the unarmed martial styles, as in Aikido and Daito Ryu, usage of these muto dori techniques help validate their arts effectiveness. Like, see me using this technique I can defeat my fellow stylist who is armed & attacking with a sword.
> 
> To the JSA-centric artists if practicing muto dori techniques, they use it as a verification of the obvious - the house odds are clearly on the man holding the long, sharp, pointy thingy. Their mindset, distancing and movements are that of a swordsman. If I had to place a wager out of my wallet, I would place money on the most experience swordsman successfully using a muto dori technique, not the most experienced Aiki practioner.


Hi,

A couple of points, if I might.

- As I noted above, I can't speak for modern Aikido. I can, however, speak from experience in Daito-ryu.

The only point I was trying to make is that in original Aikido, as in Daito-ryu, there is an integration of technique and principles between the sword and unarmed combat. Many of Daito-ryu's techniques are defenses against either sword attacks, or attempts to prevent you from using your own sword. Given the context of Daito-ryu's techniques, your own sword would most likely have been a wakizashi rather than a katana, because you were inside the threshold of the lord's house, and you didn't carry your katana in your obi there.

Daito-ryu training does not aim to "validate" its techniques against a swordsman. While a number of the techniques derive from sword techniques, the techniques themselves apply general principles that can be used against a variety of attacks.

No legitimate Daito-ryu instructor will ever try to convince you that if you get proficient at executing _ippondori_ or any other technique that derives from a sword attack defense, you will be able to defend yourself against an attack by a competent swordsman. Quite the contrary... such people are smart enough to know that your odds against a swordsman who knows what he's doing are pretty bad. Theres' a parallel in other Jujutsu ryu, and in the Hapkido kwans that have remained faithful to what Choi Yong Sul taught after returning from Japan, in knife defenses. Similar to what you describe for sword attack defenses, knife defenses competently taught are identified as a last resort. You have two choices: certain serious/lethal injury, or near-certain serious/lethal injury. I think the rational man chooses near-certain every time.

While I agree fully that the smart money would be on the skilled swordsman against an unarmed opponent, I don't believe that concerns the connecton between sword techniques and unarmed techniques. What about the situation of a two skilled swordsman facing each other - one armed with a katana, the other unarmed? Does the swordsman win that exchange every time?

Out of curiosity, do you train in any form of empty-hand combat in addition to JSA?


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## Sukerkin (Mar 12, 2008)

howard said:


> Out of curiosity, do you train in any form of empty-hand combat in addition to JSA?


 
I'm not sure if you were asking *Senjo* or me there, so, to be on the safe side I'll 'fess up .

I did Lau Gar Kung Fu for more than a decade until my near fatal bike accident but I have not trained per se in any of the Japanese empty-hand arts (the closest being weekly sparring matches against Shotokan and Shukokai students).

Nice post above by the way; it elaborated and clarified your points very well :tup:.


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## Senjojutsu (Mar 12, 2008)

Hello Howard, 

Since you have asked, yes I have trained in Shotokan katate, TKD and American Kempo styles, and have experienced some Daito Ryu and Aikido by osmosis (via training partners).

BTW, I did not want to appear to bash unarmed arts, I respect them.

I do think training for weapons defenses have been deemphasized within some of the unarmed arts during the past few decades, or certainly watered down &#8211; from the historical roots of the training bias that your opponent would be armed. Or worse - in some USA commercial schools weapons training have become the segmented/privilege knowledge area open only to the advanced students. I see that is another active interesting thread over in Karate about weapons and their impact to movements, once they stop talking about Hamlet.

During the past few years I have noticed a new buzz-word has appeared, &#8220;aliveness&#8221;, or the concept of resisting opponents. If you read some of the keyboard warriors on other boards &#8211; you get the idea that MMA/derivatives are the only real deal out there. I remember my original Shotokan instructors from my youth were pretty &#8220;alive&#8221; - as if you didn&#8217;t block they would hit you.

I also think of when someone states; &#8220;You know, the U.S. Military really needs to teach more H2H skills&#8221;. Well what should be the training focus and objectives of a modern-day foot soldier? Maybe better proficiency using M16A2s, M4 Carbines, M9 Berettas, Long-range Sniper rifles, M240B Machine Guns _et. al. _Only then if those don&#8217;t work maybe it is time for bayonets and H2H. 

Much as the Bushi would have focused on using the most efficient weapon against the opponent&#8217;s distance and the tactical situation &#8211; such as your indoor example. Romanticized thoughts it was not. It has been cataloged that a Samurai warrior would have been exposed to at least eighteen martial arts disciplines, with some more esoteric/conceptual ones also thrown in &#8211; maybe that is why it was considered a full time job.


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## pgsmith (Mar 14, 2008)

> yeah sensei and shihan do hold grades in katana teaching and my sensei is a friend of mine and he knows swords so i know he wouldnt sell me a bad one.


This brings up an interesting point that should definitely be made in my opinion. Sukerkin touched on it a bit when he mentioned that Aiki-ken doesn't really relate to the Japanese sword arts. This is a truism by the way, aiki-ken is specifically to teach better aikido, not better sword arts. Anyway, the "katana" training that is done in the vast majority of karate dojo, especially American karate, has no real relation to the Japanese sword arts. Anyone that has seen both traditional Japanese sword arts and karate tournament weapons kata can vouch for that fact. It's an important distinction to make whenever discussing the sword arts as what is done for karate tournament weapons kata is _distinctly_ different than what is done in the Japanese sword arts. They require different tools of different dimensions to perform very different movements.


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## Fiendlover (May 21, 2008)

So I finally got my new katana!  It very much looks like the sword you see next to the title "Sword Arts Talk".  It's a little longer than my other katana and it's extrmely sharp.  My sensei, (the one I mentioned already) said that it could cut through 7" of bamboo.  He also gave me two extra subas, a cloth (other than the sheath) to wrap it around, and a cleaning kit for free.  The suba that's already attached has a samuri on a horse which looks pretty awesome!  Another one has two samuri's on horseback charging one another and the other one has a dragon that looks like you would see in parades.  I was happy when I finally got it yesterday.  It is a really good quality sword and I can tell the differences between that one and my old one.  :boing1:


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