# "Canadian Response" technique brings quick restraint of combative, super-strong subjects



## Lisa (Mar 11, 2008)

A technique for "working smarter rather than harder" to restrain unusually strong, combative subjects was described by an advisor to the Force Science Research Center at a recent international conference on in-custody deaths that featured presentations by nearly 20 of the worlds leading authorities on excited delirium (ED).


 The technique, which requires a coordinated effort by several officers, involves humanely misaligning a struggling suspects muscles and joints to control his movements and reduce his capability of resisting while restraint devices are applied, explains Chris Lawrence, who outlined the tactic at the 2nd annual symposium of the Institute for the Prevention of In-Custody Deaths last month in Las Vegas. 




Full Article


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 11, 2008)

Lisa said:


> The technique, which requires a coordinated effort by several officers, involves humanely misaligning a struggling suspects muscles and joints


 
Riiiiiiight.


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## MA-Caver (Mar 11, 2008)

You mean *this* wouldn't work just as well?


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## Lisa (Mar 11, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Riiiiiiight.



???


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## jks9199 (Mar 11, 2008)

Interesting tactic.  The biggest headache I see is actually doing it under pressure without extensive training and rehearsal.  Most cops by now have probably learned to grab whatever limb is available in a "pig pile"; I like the idea of using effective positioning instead of just laying on the limb or holding i.  

But this also requires lots of cops on one suspect, which isn't always a reality.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 11, 2008)

Lisa said:


> ???


 

Oh come on, you can't tell me you can't see the humor in any kind of talk of "humanely" misaligning joints and muscles.


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## arnisador (Mar 11, 2008)

> The Canadian Response works best with 4-5 officers concentrating on a subject who&#8217;s on the ground, front side down.



_Everything _works better with 5 LEOs sitting on a person who is face-down on the ground.


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## Lisa (Mar 11, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Oh come on, you can't tell me you can't see the humor in any kind of talk of "humanely" misaligning joints and muscles.



Lack of smilies threw me a little, that and the fact that I am a little tired


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## MJS (Mar 12, 2008)

Lisa said:


> A technique for "working smarter rather than harder" to restrain unusually strong, combative subjects was described by an advisor to the Force Science Research Center at a recent international conference on in-custody deaths that featured presentations by nearly 20 of the worlds leading authorities on excited delirium (ED).
> 
> 
> The technique, which requires a coordinated effort by several officers, involves humanely misaligning a struggling suspects muscles and joints to control his movements and reduce his capability of resisting while restraint devices are applied, explains Chris Lawrence, who outlined the tactic at the 2nd annual symposium of the Institute for the Prevention of In-Custody Deaths last month in Las Vegas.
> ...


 
Well, I think we've all seen countless youtube clips of 1 officer in a struggle with a suspect.  There was one which depicted the cop fighting with the guy, and people driving/walk by as if nothing was going on.  IMHO, this shows that there are many depts. in which control techniques are lacking. 

As for what is shown in this link...yes, it is effective.  This is pretty much the same method that the Ct. Dept of Corrections uses for cell extractions.  A 5 member team is used.  Difference between what they do and what is shown in the link, is that the one of the people is armed with a shield.  They are the first person in, followed by the other 4.  They basically slam into the inmate, while the other 4 each grab an arm and leg.  I've seen this live and it does work.


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## jks9199 (Mar 12, 2008)

MJS said:


> Well, I think we've all seen countless youtube clips of 1 officer in a struggle with a suspect.  There was one which depicted the cop fighting with the guy, and people driving/walk by as if nothing was going on.  IMHO, this shows that there are many depts. in which control techniques are lacking.
> 
> As for what is shown in this link...yes, it is effective.  This is pretty much the same method that the Ct. Dept of Corrections uses for cell extractions.  A 5 member team is used.  Difference between what they do and what is shown in the link, is that the one of the people is armed with a shield.  They are the first person in, followed by the other 4.  They basically slam into the inmate, while the other 4 each grab an arm and leg.  I've seen this live and it does work.


Yep... the "shield sandwich" works great, whether you're doing cell extractions or making entry into a house through & over its resident's reluctance to welcome your visit...  But it still requires several people.  

I do take exception to your comment about control techniques being lacking.  In the real world, with someone seriously resisting, it's a lot harder to apply than in a dojo, with a partner who's going to go along with the plan (even if they're being somewhat resistant).  Sweaty people get slippery, clothes rip, cars and mailboxes and other stuff get in the way, and people just don't feel pain.  One-on-one, they're just harder to apply.  Add to that excessive prattling about liability and use-of-force in academies (which causes hesitation), and limited training and practice time...  as well as the body armor and other stuff cops are carrying, and many "control techniques" don't work so well.  The simple truth is that a real fight is nowhere near as pretty as a choreographed movie fight, or even a sparring match.  I do agree that cops do need and should be given the training and practice time to be able to be more successful -- but I won't make the comparison between a trained & practiced team effort (usually with the stated intent to use it from the git-go) with an officer dealing alone with a suddenly resisting subject.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 12, 2008)

"humanely misaligning"  I like it 

From now on, no submissions, just humane misalignments of joints and muscles


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 12, 2008)

That's the problem with those darned Canadians...always trying to complicate things with humane treatment and responsible action. Now, if you had shoot-happt cops that'd just cap a bad guy for kicks and giggles, and a court system that would give them a medal for it instead of disciplinary action, there would be a lot fewer injuries to PD on the line, and greater citizen compliance to begin with.

When "lay face down on the concrete with your arms spread wide, or I'll shoot you in the thigh. Do it now." is known to immediately precede a popping sound sans compliance, more people are apt to comply.

5 cops risking injury versus one with a capgun...See all the complications and logistic problems caused by insisting on human rights? 

D.


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## Archangel M (Mar 12, 2008)

Must be a hell of a lot of Canadian cops on patrol. Just taze him bro.
Looks like a corrections technique to me.


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## jks9199 (Mar 12, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> Must be a hell of a lot of Canadian cops on patrol. Just taze him bro.
> Looks like a corrections technique to me.


Yep -- that's about what I said.  It's a nice technique -- but you gotta have 4 to 5 bodies to do it.  Sometimes, my whole patrol squad was only 3, counting the supervisor.

The article also did kind of gloss over the whole issue of getting the guy to the ground in the first place...  Do it right (like, say, with a Taser), and you shouldn't need 5 more guys!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 13, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Yep -- that's about what I said. It's a nice technique -- but you gotta have 4 to 5 bodies to do it. Sometimes, my whole patrol squad was only 3, counting the supervisor.
> 
> The article also did kind of gloss over the whole issue of getting the guy to the ground in the first place... Do it right (like, say, with a Taser), and you shouldn't need 5 more guys!


 
Yes four or five to one is always a good match up.  Still you hit the nail on the head in that those numbers will not always be on your side.


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## MJS (Mar 13, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Yep... the "shield sandwich" works great, whether you're doing cell extractions or making entry into a house through & over its resident's reluctance to welcome your visit... But it still requires several people.


 
True.



> I do take exception to your comment about control techniques being lacking. In the real world, with someone seriously resisting, it's a lot harder to apply than in a dojo, with a partner who's going to go along with the plan (even if they're being somewhat resistant). Sweaty people get slippery, clothes rip, cars and mailboxes and other stuff get in the way, and people just don't feel pain. One-on-one, they're just harder to apply. Add to that excessive prattling about liability and use-of-force in academies (which causes hesitation), and limited training and practice time... as well as the body armor and other stuff cops are carrying, and many "control techniques" don't work so well. The simple truth is that a real fight is nowhere near as pretty as a choreographed movie fight, or even a sparring match. I do agree that cops do need and should be given the training and practice time to be able to be more successful -- but I won't make the comparison between a trained & practiced team effort (usually with the stated intent to use it from the git-go) with an officer dealing alone with a suddenly resisting subject.


 
So what options are left?


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## MJS (Mar 13, 2008)

Well, here is an option.  I do agree with you, that more time should be spent working on things in the academy and the training perhaps a bit more realistic, to attempt to simulate a real situation.


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## MJS (Mar 13, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I do take exception to your comment about control techniques being lacking. In the real world, with someone seriously resisting, it's a lot harder to apply than in a dojo, with a partner who's going to go along with the plan (even if they're being somewhat resistant). Sweaty people get slippery, clothes rip, cars and mailboxes and other stuff get in the way, and people just don't feel pain. One-on-one, they're just harder to apply. Add to that excessive prattling about liability and use-of-force in academies (which causes hesitation), and limited training and practice time... as well as the body armor and other stuff cops are carrying, and many "control techniques" don't work so well. The simple truth is that a real fight is nowhere near as pretty as a choreographed movie fight, or even a sparring match. I do agree that cops do need and should be given the training and practice time to be able to be more successful -- but I won't make the comparison between a trained & practiced team effort (usually with the stated intent to use it from the git-go) with an officer dealing alone with a suddenly resisting subject.


 
Actually, I was thinking a little more about this.  Granted, we can't replicate 100%, a real life situation, but we can get close.  Whenever you're training your techniques, be it a civilian or LEO, we should be actively resisting.  Anyone who just stands there and lets the defender do as they please, is doing a great dis-service to not only them, but their partner as well.  If what people are learning in the academy is not working, then it would be wise for the individual to seek out training that is more applicable.  You cant tell me that every cop who also trains in the arts, has never fell back on 'outside' training.

Looking thru the web, I came across two interesting sites, which IMO, seem to be teaching things that address the situations we're talking about here.

http://www.gracieacademy.com/graple_police.html

http://www.controlledforce.com/training.html

I know nothing about either one, other than what I've read, but it seems to me that they take the training a step further.  I remember when I was in the Corrections academy.  There were many times, when working hand to hand, I was thinking, "My God, I hope I never have to use this, because I may not make it out alive."


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## jks9199 (Mar 13, 2008)

MJS said:


> Actually, I was thinking a little more about this.  Granted, we can't replicate 100%, a real life situation, but we can get close.  Whenever you're training your techniques, be it a civilian or LEO, we should be actively resisting.  Anyone who just stands there and lets the defender do as they please, is doing a great dis-service to not only them, but their partner as well.  If what people are learning in the academy is not working, then it would be wise for the individual to seek out training that is more applicable.  You cant tell me that every cop who also trains in the arts, has never fell back on 'outside' training.
> 
> Looking thru the web, I came across two interesting sites, which IMO, seem to be teaching things that address the situations we're talking about here.
> 
> ...


There are a number of very realistic approaches to training and to adding very close to real opposition.  But we can't match the real deal; a role player (or training partner) isn't going to go to the point of injury to avoid being placed into cuffing position or to get away.  And if you did go that far -- you'll run out of role players or training partners pretty quick.  Any simulation training has to include safety rules and protections, to ensure that everyone participating gets to go back to work.  Our military would be pretty useless if they went on drill and really killed each other during a force-on-force exercise!  Same thing with cops.

Add another wrinkle for cops...  Some guys do go out and train hard at MMA or aikido or silat or kun tao or karate or whatever.  Not all of those schools encourage, permit, or are even willing to entertain realism in training.  If you spend a lot of time practicing point fighting, the transition to full contact is hard.  If you spend a lot of time with cooperative partners (even those who resist to a point) -- the real world can be tough transition sometimes.  And there are issues like presumed compliance (I still remember the first guy who took a swing at me; I stood there in shock -- despite years of martial arts training -- that someone would actually swing on me, a COP!).

I even agree that more training, supported and encouraged by the agency (there are a few that actively DISCOURAGE it!) would be good.  But to leap from the relative handful of videos and say that cops are inneffective is as bad as leaping from the press coverage of the small number of bad cops to say all cops are dirty.


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## MJS (Mar 14, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> There are a number of very realistic approaches to training and to adding very close to real opposition. But we can't match the real deal; a role player (or training partner) isn't going to go to the point of injury to avoid being placed into cuffing position or to get away. And if you did go that far -- you'll run out of role players or training partners pretty quick. Any simulation training has to include safety rules and protections, to ensure that everyone participating gets to go back to work. Our military would be pretty useless if they went on drill and really killed each other during a force-on-force exercise! Same thing with cops.


 
I agree.  As I said, we can't get close, but its impossible to replicate 100%.  I do have to wonder though, how much of this type of training is actually done in the academy.



> Add another wrinkle for cops... Some guys do go out and train hard at MMA or aikido or silat or kun tao or karate or whatever. Not all of those schools encourage, permit, or are even willing to entertain realism in training. If you spend a lot of time practicing point fighting, the transition to full contact is hard. If you spend a lot of time with cooperative partners (even those who resist to a point) -- the real world can be tough transition sometimes. And there are issues like presumed compliance (I still remember the first guy who took a swing at me; I stood there in shock -- despite years of martial arts training -- that someone would actually swing on me, a COP!).


 
I've always been a believer that if you train in the arts, the #1 goal should be for SD.  I don't need a martial arts school to help me lose weight, make friends, socialize, etc.  I can't do all that and then some on my own.   Of course, I understand that everyones goals are different, and some do attend for the reasons I mention.  But, if SD is what you're looking for and the training isn't what you expected, I'd say leaving would be a wise move.  Its like rolling in BJJ.  You start off slow, allowing each other to get the moves, locks, etc., but you then pick up the pace and it becomes alot harder to get those things.  But, its putting you in a different setting. 



> I even agree that more training, supported and encouraged by the agency (there are a few that actively DISCOURAGE it!) would be good. But to leap from the relative handful of videos and say that cops are inneffective is as bad as leaping from the press coverage of the small number of bad cops to say all cops are dirty.


 
So..what are the options left for the officers?  The stuff that they're doing is working to a point.  I say this because while they're in a bad position they're still hanging on and doing their best.  I say lacking because it seems that they're operating on limited material.  With all of the grappling arts out there and the success of grappling, I find it a little hard to believe that there is no way to successfully take someone to the ground and put them in a position that greatly limits their movement, to allow them to be cuffed, or at least control easier until help can arrive.


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