# Do any of these stances/forms/motions look familiar?



## Ninjamom (Feb 25, 2007)

I have been trying for quite a while to research some of the roots of a very obscure Korean martial art called "Gicheon".  A few practitioners of the art have speculated that it had roots in some Northern Chinese styles,  but I have not been able to verify this.  Until recently, I couldn't find any really good, representative video clips of gicheon practitioners, either.

Some representative video clips of gicheon have finally turned up on youtube.  Could some of you who practice different Chinese styles please view these clips and comment: do any of the motions, stances, or technique names look/sound familiar?  Do you think this art is at all related to Chinese martial styles?  If so, which ones?  Care to hazard a guess about how long ago any link or split might have ocurred?

Thanks in advance!

Video clips of Gicheon:





 




 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00eOUyfaay4&mode=related&search=

A collection of clips showing all the basic stances may be found here.


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## Cathain (Feb 25, 2007)

Lau Gar (Southern style) novice here - it doesn't look much like anything I've seen before, sorry.


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## clfsean (Feb 26, 2007)

Eh... I saw some Piqua like motions in the first vid & the stepping looked a bit like NPM to me, but I don't see that much about actual CMA in it.

The second vid didn't really strike me at all.

The last video looked unnatural in their postures & tension they appeared to hold. IME qigong while making you work, don't make you uncomfortable & those folks looked uncomfortable to me.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 26, 2007)

*watch?v=NJGkYpJPHO0*
Clip 1 - the initial strikes look very much like Northern Long Fist except long fist would use a fist not an open hand. It would be interesting to hear a Crane stylist take on this form

*watch?v=fBAd4mw8OlA
*Clip 2 - A dash of Chen Style Taiji but only a dash. Not enough to say it has any connection to Chen however

*watch?v=00eOU...related&search=
*Clip 3 - The very beginning looks like Sil Lum Tao of Wing Chun, but only the very beginning. He bends at the waist and the knees to much for it to be a Wing Chun stance. Other than that it looks like Qigong, but I could not tell you the style. I can only say it does not look like any style of qigong I do or have done.


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## East Winds (Feb 26, 2007)

I would have said that the 2nd clip was almost identical to a form of Liu Ho Pa Fa.

The other two clips were unknown to me.

Very best wishes


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## Flying Crane (Feb 26, 2007)

Hmmm... some of the more open, fluid movements have a vague similarity to some of the longarm southern systems like Choy Lay Fut or Tibetan White Crane.  Only very vague, tho. Can't say I saw anything that was really identifiable, other than in the same general flavor...

Overall, these seem more "Chinese" in flavor of movement, very different from what you see in a typical TKD or TSD school.  Can't say much about it, other than that.


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## Ninjamom (Feb 26, 2007)

Thank you all very much for your responses and thoughts.  I have been trying to find some 'roots' to this art for about two years, now, and all my research hit a snag, so any ideas/leads you have are greatly appreciated.



clfsean said:


> The last video looked unnatural in their postures & tension they appeared to hold. IME qigong while making you work, don't make you uncomfortable & those folks looked uncomfortable to me.


Yes, this pose is actually nicknamed in Korean "The Pain", and it shows something that GiCheon claims as unique - stances in GiCheon include all joints locked at maximum extension.  Practitioners hold these poses for hours at a time to 'unlock chi flow'.



Xue Sheng said:


> *watch?v=00eOU...related&search=*
> Clip 3 - The very beginning looks like Sil Lum Tao of Wing Chun, but only the very beginning. He bends at the waist and the knees to much for it to be a Wing Chun stance. Other than that it looks like Qigong, but I could not tell you the style. I can only say it does not look like any style of qigong I do or have done.


I've never heard of Sil Lum Tao.  Do you have any favorite websites you'd recommend (preferably with some video clips) for a little more background info?



East Winds said:


> I would have said that the 2nd clip was almost identical to a form of Liu Ho Pa Fa.


Another one I've never heard of.  Is that a particular style or a particular form within a style?



Flying Crane said:


> Overall, these seem more "Chinese" in flavor of movement, very different from what you see in a typical TKD or TSD school.


I completely agree, and that has made tracing the art more difficult.  As far as I can tell, it is one of the oldest continuously-practiced Korean martial arts still taught today, and its roots do seem much more Chinese than Japanese.

Thank you all again, for your insights.  If anyone comes across any more information, please feel free to PM me.


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## clfsean (Feb 26, 2007)

Ninjamom said:


> Thank you all very much for your responses and thoughts. I have been trying to find some 'roots' to this art for about two years, now, and all my research hit a snag, so any ideas/leads you have are greatly appreciated.


 
No worries



Ninjamom said:


> Yes, this pose is actually nicknamed in Korean "The Pain", and it shows something that GiCheon claims as unique - stances in GiCheon include all joints locked at maximum extension. Practitioners hold these poses for hours at a time to 'unlock chi flow'.


 
Yeah... that's not good. Locking joints is just as bad as bending too far in joints. It restricts chi flow. Plus it's not good for the body to "lock" a joint out, especially for long periods of time like you suggest. 

Ever watch somebody pass out from locking their knees while standing? Same deal... 



Ninjamom said:


> I've never heard of Sil Lum Tao. Do you have any favorite websites you'd recommend (preferably with some video clips) for a little more background info?


 
It's the first Wing Chun hand form.



Ninjamom said:


> Another one I've never heard of. Is that a particular style or a particular form within a style?


 
It's a Chinese Internal martial art.



Ninjamom said:


> I completely agree, and that has made tracing the art more difficult. As far as I can tell, it is one of the oldest continuously-practiced Korean martial arts still taught today, and its roots do seem much more Chinese than Japanese.


 
Where'd you hear that from?



Ninjamom said:


> Thank you all again, for your insights. If anyone comes across any more information, please feel free to PM me.


 
No worries.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 26, 2007)

Yip Man Performing Sil Lum Tao




 
And now that I look at it teh stance in your clip is wider as well.

Liuhe bafa
http://www.answers.com/topic/liuhe-bafa


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## dmax999 (Feb 26, 2007)

If they wern't Korean, I would have guessed it was the Taoist Tai Chi Society doing Ba Gua.  TTCS has modified their form to be more like Lie Hu Ba Fa, minus the effective fighting parts, which is probably why that looks like them to me.

My second guess would be an offshoot of Lie Hu Ba Fa, much like Oom Yung Do was a Korean offshoot of Ba Gua.


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## Trent (Mar 3, 2007)

It appears to be a Korean version of some internal Chinese art.  Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be well done at all.


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## Ninjamom (Mar 3, 2007)

dmax999 said:


> ........much like Oom Yung Do was a Korean offshoot of Ba Gua.


Interesting!  I had heard that there were some very active, very good Guan fa stylists in Korea, but I hadn't been able to pin down any specific styles that had migrated there.


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## Trent (Mar 4, 2007)

Ninjamom said:


> Interesting!  I had heard that there were some very active, very good Guan fa stylists in Korea, but I hadn't been able to pin down any specific styles that had migrated there.



Baguazhang and Northern Preying Mantis styles have a large following in Korea.  There are surely other Chinese styles that have migrated with families that remain in the family.


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## Kin Mon (Mar 16, 2007)

I studied Bak Sil Lum (Northern Shaolin) with Lai Hung in San Francisco in the 70s, and some of this does indeed bear a family resemblance.

Perhaps this is to Northern what Kenpo is to Southern, that is, a karate form derived from gung fu?


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## Taijiman (Mar 31, 2007)

First one looks Pigua inspired (axe boxing) 




To tell the truth it all looks more "inspired by" different kungfu styles than something with a direct link.


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## Taijiman (Mar 31, 2007)

Liu He Ba Fa example:


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## Steronius (Aug 19, 2007)

Some things here had some similarities to things i've seen or practiced.

Seems like the on-guard hand position is very BaGua.

First Vid:  first exercise: although the hand motions are different, I have done a QiGong exercise, were you stoop, bow, balance and rise repeatedly. I was told that many Koreans do this in the morning and it was said to cure cancer. (i dont believe that though)  Basically to me it's about compressing and stretching the body as a whole.  you will feel "hot" like "radiation" after.

First Vid: second exercise: this motion like a right hand block, followed by a left hand block and a right hand takedown or ridge hand motion.  in the vid it is obviously extended and strong for a severe strike or a takedown. in our version from class, it also has the right black followed closely by a left block and afollwed up with a ridge-hand or other strike. ours is more a quick head/neck strike without the whole body motion.

First Vid: third exercise: seems very similar to some stepping excercises i saw in Park Bok Nom's videos without the up down body motion.

Second Vid: Seems some of the arm motion looks like Taekyyon's hand motion when they do their dance-like movement.  Also present is that BaGua on-guard hand position.

Third Vid: You can see this exercise in the DVD: http://www.gicheon.org/media/ki.htm

To me it does seem very "Korean interpretation of Chinese arts".


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