# Wing chun guy gets dropped



## dudewingchun (Jul 29, 2016)




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## wckf92 (Jul 29, 2016)

Speechless

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## Tames D (Jul 29, 2016)

The MMA guy was respectful.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 29, 2016)

I like the MMA guy's

- circle around strategy.
- left and right hay-makers.

Instead of standing there as a "sitting duck", the WC guy should use straight line footwork to cut into the MMA guy's circular footwork, interrupt his circular footwork, and take the control back.


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## Red Sun (Jul 29, 2016)

Well... all i really got out of this video is that downward elbow strikes only work if you can stop the driving momentum first. Otherwise, i didn't see good Wing Chun or good MMA. :/


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## SaulGoodman (Jul 30, 2016)

Embarrassing, the Wc guy obviously has zero hard sparring experience.


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## drop bear (Jul 30, 2016)

Red Sun said:


> Well... all i really got out of this video is that downward elbow strikes only work if you can stop the driving momentum first. Otherwise, i didn't see good Wing Chun or good MMA. :/


You have to hit that elbow with your whole body.  Just flailing the arm does mostly bubkas. So if you picked the double leg and sprawled into a shot. Or stepped out lt would d probably work(ish). You cant do much with them hanging off their hips.

Conversely if you are double legging someone the elbow does nothing to stop the takedown in that it does not protect the elements that are actually bein attacked.


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## SaulGoodman (Jul 30, 2016)

drop bear said:


> You have to hit that elbow with your whole body.  Just flailing the arm does mostly bubkas. So if you picked the double leg and sprawled into a shot. Or stepped out lt would d probably work(ish). You cant do much with them hanging off their hips.
> 
> Conversely if you are double legging someone the elbow does nothing to stop the takedown in that it does not protect the elements that are actually bein attacked.


Bang on the money, a well executed penetration step and double leg will render that downward elbow useless.


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## SaulGoodman (Jul 30, 2016)

Red Sun said:


> Well... all i really got out of this video is that downward elbow strikes only work if you can stop the driving momentum first. Otherwise, i didn't see good Wing Chun or good MMA. :/


The mma was good enough to mess up the Wc practitioner...


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## drop bear (Jul 30, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> Bang on the money, a well executed penetration step and double leg will render that downward elbow useless.



If you were a really slick wrestler you might be able to pull it off.  If you are a wing chun guy. Then know your limitations and choose something better.


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## SaulGoodman (Jul 30, 2016)

drop bear said:


> If you were a really slick wrestler you might be able to pull it off.  If you are a wing chun guy. Then know your limitations and choose something better.


Interesting, I don't think shooting in from the correct range for the double leg vs the Wc guy in the clip would need slick skills, he looks like a sitting duck


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## Kickboxer101 (Jul 30, 2016)

Well it's a fight someone's got to lose


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## drop bear (Jul 30, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> Interesting, I don't think shooting in from the correct range for the double leg vs the Wc guy in the clip would need slick skills, he looks like a sitting duck



No the wing chun guy has to be a slick wrestler to pull off down elbows. Because you are defending without using your arms.


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## SaulGoodman (Jul 30, 2016)

drop bear said:


> No the wing chun guy has to be a slick wrestler to pull off down elbows. Because you are defending without using your arms.


Sorry DB misread what you said.


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## Red Sun (Jul 30, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> The mma was good enough to mess up the Wc practitioner...



...that's a can of worms.
There's no denying who won and who lost, but he didn't win because he has good MMA.


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## SaulGoodman (Jul 30, 2016)

Red Sun said:


> ...that's a can of worms.
> There's no denying who won and who lost, but he didn't win because he has good MMA.


Agreed, if the mma guy (who the clip said was a kickboxer) had been more skillful and aggressive that "fight" would  have been over a lot quicker.


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## KPM (Jul 30, 2016)

^^^^^  Did you read the text right at the end of the video?  It didn't seem to match what was in the video itself.  When the MMA guy got in a good shot that rattled the Wing Tsun guy, the action stopped and he seemed to be apologizing.  This looked like a friendly comparison of skills, and not a match where 50K was at stake and anything goes!  And neither one looked like an "expert", let alone a "master."


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## SaulGoodman (Jul 30, 2016)

KPM said:


> ^^^^^  Did you read the text right at the end of the video?  It didn't seem to match what was in the video itself.  When the MMA guy got in a good shot that rattled the Wing Tsun guy, the action stopped and he seemed to be apologizing.  This looked like a friendly comparison of skills, and not a match where 50K was at stake and anything goes!  And neither one looked like an "expert", let alone a "master."


My money is still on the mma guy regardless of the circumstances


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## drop bear (Jul 30, 2016)

KPM said:


> ^^^^^  Did you read the text right at the end of the video?  It didn't seem to match what was in the video itself.  When the MMA guy got in a good shot that rattled the Wing Tsun guy, the action stopped and he seemed to be apologizing.  This looked like a friendly comparison of skills, and not a match where 50K was at stake and anything goes!  And neither one looked like an "expert", let alone a "master."



Yeah. Wouldn't have thought a 50,000 no rules match would have a  standing count.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 30, 2016)

This video reminds me about the discussion about only sparring against the same same system.  I think this videos is text book example of what can happen as a result of always sparring against the same system.  

The match could have been an invitation for the purpose of learning how to use WC vs MMA style of fighting.  If the match was really a 50K challenge then the WC guy is very lucky to fight this MMA guy and not someone who would swing for the hills and would have kneed the WC guy when he was sitting against the wall.

Whatever the real reason for the sparring match was, it's clear to see that the WC guy needs more sparring time that doesn't look like this WC vs WC


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## dudewingchun (Jul 30, 2016)

The guy who fights the wing chun person name is Raymon Beh. I thought he was pretty bad representation of MMA , he couldnt even get the wing chun guy down with the takedowns but he still pretty much annhillated the wing chun guy. I found a longer version. I think alot of WC people would see this and say the WC guy was rubbish and should of done this and that but if they got into that situation I think most would end up looking like him. 

Raymond 'monk' Beh | Facebook


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## Tired_Yeti (Jul 30, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


>


The wing chun man had a problem in his thinking. Right from the start, he assumed a defensive posture and accepted the role of "receiver" of technique. This is clearly evident by all the circling around. One of the FIRST things my boxing coach told me was to never let them spin you in circles and walk around. Wherever they go, whichever direction, you step in front. Cut the ring in half for them and force a closing of space. Close the distance and corner them. Own the ring. The wing chun man should have cut the ring off. He didn't because he didn't have a plan of attack. He had only planned to receive and defend.
That is NOT the warrior spirit. The best defense is a good offense. He didn't have a warrior mentality. 


"Re-stomp the groin"
Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


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## SaulGoodman (Jul 30, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


> The guy who fights the wing chun person name is Raymon Beh. I thought he was pretty bad representation of MMA , he couldnt even get the wing chun guy down with the takedowns but he still pretty much annhillated the wing chun guy. I found a longer version. I think alot of WC people would see this and say the WC guy was rubbish and should of done this and that but if they got into that situation I think most would end up looking like him.
> 
> Raymond 'monk' Beh | Facebook


If he'd had some decent catch skills the Wc guy would have been slammed to the ground in very short order.


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## guy b (Jul 31, 2016)

lol catch skills, did you drop in from 2003?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 31, 2016)

KPM said:


> ^^^^^  Did you read the text right at the end of the video?  It didn't seem to match what was in the video itself.  When the MMA guy got in a good shot that rattled the Wing Tsun guy, the action stopped and he seemed to be apologizing.  This looked like a friendly comparison of skills, and not a match where 50K was at stake and anything goes!  And neither one looked like an "expert", let alone a "master."


C'mon. Next you're going to tell me that the WC guy wasn't a 9th degree black belt in WC and JKD, just because neither of those arts normally has a belt ranking system. I'm sure they wouldn't be allowed to make claims like that on the internet if it wasn't true.


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## Buka (Jul 31, 2016)

I had this strange thought....

Do you remember the two youngins who were bad mouthing their old TKD style? One who looked like Howard on Big Bang and his cool buddy?

The OP vid......that looked to me who those two will grow up to be.

(I know, I'm awful)


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## kehcorpz (Aug 1, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like the MMA guy's
> 
> - circle around strategy.
> - left and right hay-makers.
> ...



And does this stuff actually work?

I mean it's simple to say ah the guy should simply have done this and that.

Maybe wing chun theory only works in theory?

I'd really like to see wing chun masters who think they are good fight against other masters but they don't do this. I wonder why.

The students may think my teacher is sooo good and in reality he'd get his *** kicked if he actually fought against someone other than his students.


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## kehcorpz (Aug 1, 2016)

And why isn't the wing chun attacking?

I thought that in wing chun you don't just stand around but you go into the enemy.

But he doesn't do this.

From what I've seen is that in real fights wing chun people don't even look like wing chun anymore.

You don't see any of the fancy techniques which they demonstrate when everything is static and when the "attacker" simply stands in front of them

and then moves his arm to hit them. This isn't really a fight scenario.

I'd really like to see a real fight where you can actually see somebody use wing chun stuff and not just the chain punches.

I even saw a video once where a wing chun master who used to compete in his past said that

when wing chun ppl fight in competitions you don't see much wing chun.


Look at how the wing chun guy "attacks" at 0:52. Where's the wing chun techniques? I see none of them. He just tried to hit him with punches. 

I'm really starting to believe that all the fancy techniques don't work in real situations.


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## kehcorpz (Aug 1, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


> I think alot of WC people would see this and say the WC guy was rubbish



Of course they would do that.

To me this seems a bit like a cult. The problem can NEVER actually be wing chun itself. If a wing chun guy gets destroyed by another fighter then his wing chun simply sucked. Problem solved. 
Life can be so easy.

If actually making use of wing chun is sooooooo hard then it's useless. Then somebody who trained wing chun only for a few years and is considered a beginner basically has no chance in a fight cause his wing chun simply hasn't gotten out of sucking state yet.

I am really disillusioned with wing chun. I wish I hadn't wasted so much time watching wing chun videos.

I should better have watched silat videos or something else which is more promising in real fights.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 1, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Maybe wing chun theory only works in theory?


To be able to maintain the forward pressure is the main WC theory. That means, if your opponent

- punches you, you run him down.
- kicks you, you run him down.
- does nothing, you still run him down.

In that clip, we just don't see this kind of "run down" spirit.

How to deal with a "circle running" opponent? You have to use straight line to cut in front of his circle. This is footwork strategy 101. It's OK to lose in "fighting". But it's not OK to lose in "strategy". If you don't know how to deal with a certain situation (such as how to interrupt a circle running opponent), that can be a very serious problem.

IMO, WC guys may have too much faith in their "chain punches" theory. In the real life, the left and right hay-makers (or hooks) will have much more knock down power than the straight punch does. When straight punch meets hay-maker, my money will always be on the hay-maker.


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## drop bear (Aug 1, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To be able to maintain the forward pressure is the main WC theory. That means, if your opponent
> 
> - punches you, you run him down.
> - kicks you, you run him down.
> ...



Yeah.  I will let everyone in on a secret. Running them down only works if you are not eating punches.


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 2, 2016)

If you train Wing Chun properly it works  fine. It's HOW you train the art that matters. It has to be holistic in that forms/drills/chi Sao/sparring etc ALL need to be covered regularly. Too many  Wc people are "theoretical fighters" and never glove up and get in the trenches and work. When you're in the mix and getting hit from all angles you soon start to realize that application of the art isn't always pretty but it DOES work. When I watch Wc guys sparring/fighting I can see pretty quickly wether they spar regularly or not.
 How they react to getting hit, how they enter, how they cover, how they use footwork etc. an awful lot of the time it's very evident that they spend waay too much time playing chi Sao and not enough time sparring. Contact work/sparring experience is paramount in any art imo. Let's take the much venerated Muay Thai. If I spent a year going to a Thai class, learnt all the basics, hit pads but did no sparring whatsoever and then sparred a Wing Chun guy who had trained the same period who HAD sparred plenty, I'm pretty sure who will be more comfortable in that environment. However, it seems very common that the reverse is true and that whenever Wc people go up against Thai/kickboxing/boxing etc, it's a bad day at the office. Why? Because those arts encourage contact /aliveness from day 1. I've even heard that chi Sao is wing chuns "sparring", I've seen things on Wc club websites "come and learn to protect yourself in a non-contact protective environment", is that an oxymoron or what?
Regarding not seeing "fancy techniques" when Wc people are fighting/sparring, no your not going to see tan da/lap da combinations cleanly executed from an opponents jab. These are drills for timing,spatial awareness and line awareness. You don't take drills to battle, you take the attributes gained from those drills.


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## dudewingchun (Aug 2, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Of course they would do that.
> 
> To me this seems a bit like a cult. The problem can NEVER actually be wing chun itself. If a wing chun guy gets destroyed by another fighter then his wing chun simply sucked. Problem solved.
> Life can be so easy.
> ...



Its not a problem thats only in Wing chun. This problem exists in most CMA/TMA including silat. A large majority of TMA/CMA practictioners cannot fight for **** and have a distorted sense of what the reality of a fight actually is. Wing chun right now has the worst reputation as a fighting art possible, everyone thinks it is a joke. It is sad as someone who loves Wing Chun


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 2, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


> Its not a problem thats only in Wing chun. This problem exists in most CMA/TMA including silat. A large majority of TMA/CMA practictioners cannot fight for **** and have a distorted sense of what the reality of a fight actually is. Wing chun right now has the worst reputation as a fighting art possible, everyone thinks it is a joke. It is sad as someone who loves Wing Chun


Couldn't agree more. Our art is a beautiful, intelligent system of fighting that constantly rewards when you put in the effort.


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 2, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Of course they would do that.
> 
> To me this seems a bit like a cult. The problem can NEVER actually be wing chun itself. If a wing chun guy gets destroyed by another fighter then his wing chun simply sucked. Problem solved.
> Life can be so easy.
> ...



So what practical experience do you have with Wing Chun?


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## yak sao (Aug 2, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> I am really disillusioned with wing chun. I wish I hadn't wasted so much time watching wing chun videos.
> 
> I should better have watched silat videos or something else which is more promising in real fights.


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## yak sao (Aug 2, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> I am really disillusioned with wing chun. I wish I hadn't wasted so much time watching wing chun videos.
> 
> I should better have watched silat videos or something else which is more promising in real fights.



You can watch a million videos but they will not teach you how to fight. The only way to learn a physical skill is to perform it....over and over and over.

If you ever decide to step away from the keyboard and actually put in some training, you are welcome to drop by and train with me. You will see first-hand, not from youtube, that WC works.


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 2, 2016)

There's an entire thread somewhere on how to learn from video


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## kehcorpz (Aug 3, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> Regarding not seeing "fancy techniques" when Wc people are fighting/sparring, no your not going to see tan da/lap da combinations cleanly executed from an opponents jab. These are drills for timing,spatial awareness and line awareness. You don't take drills to battle, you take the attributes gained from those drills.



I don't understand that. Does this mean that these techniques don't work in fights? Then why even learn them?

This is like a soccer player who practices balancing the ball on his head all day long and then in a real match this is useless. :/


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 3, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> I don't understand that. Does this mean that these techniques don't work in fights? Then why even learn them?
> 
> This is like a soccer player who practices balancing the ball on his head all day long and then in a real match this is useless. :/


I don't want to start trading flawed analogies, why don't you make the effort like the majority of us on this forum and actually train rather than trying to find holes in videos/people's explanations. There are no shortcuts to getting good at any martial arts, all have the strengths and flaws, you seem to seek combat efficiency, I've already explained that if you train any art realistically you should get something functional from it. Wing Chun is an experiential,concept driven art that allows itself to be tailor made to the individual. It is not a monkey see, monkey do art where you pigeon hole each idea to a given task. You've come to the wrong art if that's what you're looking for and your inability to understand my explanations regarding not seeing posed techniques mid fight , seems to confirm this. Maybe systema or Krav Maga are the arts you should analyse by video next...,


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## anerlich (Aug 3, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> I should better have watched silat videos or something else which is more promising in real fights.



No one here will have any issue with you watching silat videos and bugging the silat forum with your pointless questions, instead of this one.


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## Ironbear24 (Aug 4, 2016)

Why are you using dumb YouTube videos to judge fighting styles? Didn't people warn you about this?


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## Ironbear24 (Aug 4, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Of course they would do that.
> 
> To me this seems a bit like a cult. The problem can NEVER actually be wing chun itself. If a wing chun guy gets destroyed by another fighter then his wing chun simply sucked. Problem solved.
> Life can be so easy.
> ...







Clearly his wing chun training paid off here. The other guy took the fight to the ground, big mistake, wing chun dude has ground skills too. So dude, you gonna train or what?


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## Ironbear24 (Aug 4, 2016)

He is probably not going to train.


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## Ironbear24 (Aug 4, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Of course they would do that.
> 
> To me this seems a bit like a cult. The problem can NEVER actually be wing chun itself. If a wing chun guy gets destroyed by another fighter then his wing chun simply sucked. Problem solved.
> Life can be so easy.
> ...



Watch the video I posted above.


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