# Using WC in the Cage?



## Si-Je (Jun 20, 2008)

I was wondering what your thoughts were about using WC/WT in the MMA cage, or in tournament competition althogether.  
San Shau may be a good area for WC technique.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 20, 2008)

Well it's the same thing here as it would be for any attempt to use anything else in the cage: the cage will have certain rules that will require certain modifications, just the same way the street will have a certain LACK of rules that will require modification from just the "school" atmosphere.

The only difference will be in just exactly what the decided-upon rules will be in the particular "cage", and how much change is needed.


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## Si-Je (Jun 20, 2008)

Awesome response!

I figure that it would be relatively simple to utilize basic WC technique and concepts in "ruled" fighting.

Just keep it simple, stick with basic techniques.  If you use too much advanced technique you could be disqualified because of WC's street fighting nature.

But we've found that it's not too hard to "clean it up" a bit for continious sparring, cage/MMA fighting rules would be interesting to experiment with, and even point sparring.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 20, 2008)

Right. You may not always be  in the "by-the-book" WC posture from with the knees in and the hands at solar plexus level straight in line, but certain of the movement principles I'm sure you could keep intact and use.

This is a common misconception i see with a lot of people who think that just learning a drill or an aspect of an art in a static drill type of thing means that if you're not stuck in that position from bell to bell, you aren't "using your art". They don't get that it's not so much a "fighting" style as it is a *training* style.


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## Si-Je (Jun 20, 2008)

Cool beans!  It's nice to find someone elese open minded enough to adapt.


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## naneek (Jun 20, 2008)

i agree that various tecniques can be used in the ring and can see no problem with doing so, i dont kow why some feel that it cant be done with rules surely you modify what you use against any opponent on the street or otherwise. some tecniques are crippling, if u can decide not to use them on the street (unless as a last resort) then u can decide not to use them in the ring. just my opinion


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## Danny T (Jun 21, 2008)

Forms,
Drills,
Applications.

I attempt to convey to my stuents that Forms and drills are for training & understanding. Application is for reality and reality, more often not, doesn't look anything like forms.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 21, 2008)

Exactly.


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## qwksilver61 (Jun 21, 2008)

Just do it!.........yeah go for it!


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## brocklee (Jun 22, 2008)

My view point is that WC CANT be used in the ring because of the rules.  If we can bend what we're taught to make it so we can use only WC in the ring, then they would need to bend some set of rules for the others, such as no going to the ground, to make things more fair.  Because in a street fight, concrete and hard surfaces usually play a part in the decision of whether or not it goes to the ground.


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## CuongNhuka (Jun 22, 2008)

The only really dangerous part of using Wing Chun in an MMA ring (or at all) is actually the guard. If you and your opponent are not at punching range (or closer), you have a blind spot to the side and underneith your lead arm. And it is harder then you think to defend against rib shots in the instance.

The thing is Brock, you can still punch from the ground, and many Wing Chun techniques can be applied to grappling situations.


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## brocklee (Jun 22, 2008)

CuongNhuka said:


> The thing is Brock, you can still punch from the ground, and many Wing Chun techniques can be applied to grappling situations.



I too am a preacher of this.  I just know that we'd be using it ALL the time because cage usually = straight to the ground.  It would be better just to take up BJJ.  

The ground is our defense in the streets against grapplers.


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## geezer (Jun 22, 2008)

brocklee said:


> My view point is that WC CANT be used in the ring because of the rules.  If we can bend what we're taught to make it so we can use only WC in the ring, then they would need to bend some set of rules for the others, such as no going to the ground, to make things more fair.  Because in a street fight, concrete and hard surfaces usually play a part in the decision of whether or not it goes to the ground.



To the contrary, I don't see why Wing Chun principles wouldn't translate well to Cage fighting, but as Danny T pointed out, it will _look_ a lot different. I think a bigger problem is finding enough real fighters who are willing to invest the time it takes to learn enough good Wing Chun to work for them in a cage fight. They will probably see quicker results with a good MMA/ Cage-fight coach who really knows the sport. Also, most Wing Chun sifus, even the really good ones, don't have the experience or interest in this area.

As far as not going to the ground on concrete, Brocklee, that's not always a choice _you _get to make. I've been taken down hard, and NO, I didn't like it! But it can happen unless your skills are god-like, so better deal with it. Some WT anti-grappling training is good, and some _grappling_ work would be better. Ask Kamon guy--he's the WC/BJJ guy. I've said all I know.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jun 23, 2008)

Geezer is spot on. I've fought on the floor on gravel, sand, wooden floors, concrete floors, pub floors (mix of carpet, glass and vomit!!). But to be honest, you don't really feel it that much in the fight. You are more worried about surviving the fight

Wing chun is not built for cage fighting. This point has been raised before and done to death on various forums. It is good to bring it up once in a while if new things have been discovered or martial art technique has changed to allow room for new points to the debate. But so far they haven't 

Simply put, no art can survive on its own in that kind of format (cage)
Many of the first UFC fighters Dan Severn, Royce Gracie learnt this very quickly. Now they use combinations of arts, or at least are aware of them

In the street, core arts (wing chun, karate) do well, because of the basics of stance, energies, power etc and the short range nature of these arts

When you approach a guy from one side of the ring, (who knows a martial art), you have to be a little more broader in your knowledge of martial arts

Why is this? 

Because, in the street, wing chun is natural and works on reaction and muscle memory in short range situations
Many arts do not. MT works on the premise that you are going to see your opponent throw an attack and fight in a sparred range

They are two different worlds

This is not to say that you cannot blur between the lines

Certainly MT is a great self defence art, but many fighters struggle because they are used to warming up before a fight 

And in tournaments I have been in, I have used sensitivity in clinchwork or on the floor etc
The greatest advantage has been in preserving energy due to minimal movement which is taught through wing chun

I do not dance around when I fight. I plant my feet and hit hard
Whilst I take a few hits, it means that I eventually get my opponent and when I hit, my whole body is behind it


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## dungeonworks (Jun 23, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Geezer is spot on. I've fought on the floor on gravel, sand, wooden floors, concrete floors, pub floors (mix of carpet, glass and vomit!!). But to be honest, you don't really feel it that much in the fight. You are more worried about surviving the fight
> 
> Wing chun is not built for cage fighting. This point has been raised before and done to death on various forums. It is good to bring it up once in a while if new things have been discovered or martial art technique has changed to allow room for new points to the debate. But so far they haven't
> 
> ...



Officially the end of this thread.  Great post Kamon! :ultracool


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## Si-Je (Jun 23, 2008)

Honestly, I've been watching UFC fighters and their use of technique is pretty limited.  I understand that they drill and use what seems to work best in the ring.  Now BJJ was designed especially for this type of fighting.
I've played around with a couple of BJJ students.  one in particular I asked to attack me in a BJJ manner.  He started at the far end of the room (and it was a large room) and ran full force towards me like a low football tackle.  Is this a practical approach to attack? Or the seemingly favorite, feint straight punch to the face and quick shoot in to the knees?
Personally I'd never, never use those techniques in sport fighting or street.  These guys depend too much on strength, which works for these strong men.  But, as the BJJ kid ran towards me, I found it pretty simple to keep him from taking me to the ground.  (I'll admit that it was intimidating to have a large guy come at me like that) but use using sensitivity and re-direction I was able to keep my feet.  
When I studied Japanese Ju-Jitsu we utilized many joint locks from a standing position.  In the ring this is largely negated simply by the fact that they tape up the wrists, and to execute these locking techniques requires manipulation of the wrist of a larger opponent.  So, no.  Many of my old groundfighting techniques won't work.  Judo thowing is more difficult on these MMA fighters simply because they jump backwards as they punch to make sure they aren't easilly taken to the ground.  This also makes it a bit trickier if one is to chain punch effectively.  With the american boxing they use, it is easy to get setup by a decent boxer if you run forward too soon chain punching.  And I'm not talking about trying to trap the opponent or what many people think of intercepting fist.  
It's just a theory of mine, but I really believe that if one sticks to the basics you learn in WC in the first year will be very effective in the ring.
When we had the school open many MMA fighters came to the school to check out the WC we taught.  I used to theorize that the WC advanced stance (one leg forward) left a WC fighter more vulnerable to BJJ take-downs.  My teacher proved me wrong when a very large practicioner of Jeet-kune Do and BJJ shot into his stance while sparring.  My teacher just rooted and stood there,  softly slapping the guys back of the head, and applying elbows while the guy was still trying to take him to the ground.  My teacher/hubbie didn't actually hit the guy in the back of the head, just let him know that he was open and in danger.  This went on for several seconds and the BJJ opponent stopped trying the takedown.  This blew my old theory out of the water.  Advanced stance isn't more vulnerable.  

I've fought in tournament and stayed within their sparring rules using 100% Wing Chun.  And won my match.  It was a little more difficult than it should have been, but using only Grade 1 and 2 technique kept me well withing the range of their rules for contact.  And they didn't allow "grabbing" a kicking leg so we left out the use of gan sau (even though you don't actually grab the kicking leg, but they could'nt see that from the judges position).

In the cage more is allowed.  I figure as long as you don't punch or elbow the back of the head and neck, bui ge the eyes, kick the groin, bite, or chop the neck and throught it still leaves alot of room for plenty of other WC technique.  Way more than a karate continious sparring match.

As for the BJJ style ground fighting.  No way.  Takes way too much time and if you opponent knows BJJ as well, it gives them time to counter and rest.  I've seen these guys get into a position on the ground to catch their breath.  I'd stick to the anti-grappling and keep your feet long enough to keep the pressure on these excellent atheletes to wear them down.  These guys are wicked in shape!  Don't play their game.
Work cardio so you can chain punch all day long, and watch your opponents pattern.  Ah, pattern!
These guys all have a pattern to their fighting.  Every single fighter I've seen I can start to read their fighting patern within a few minutes.
I've got to be careful not to watch too much MMA because after awhile you start to think like that type of fighter.  Their limited in their thinking when it comes to fighting.  For example, when one is on the ground with another opponent in mount position, these fighters never seem to realize that they can still punch, deflect, and elbow while their under a attacker.  Only because that's just not what they've been taught.  They just don't see the opportunity.  When I first started WC Pac sau freaked me out because I always thought that if an opponent had their "guard up" that I had to go around their arms or feint.  But with basic pac sau you simply go straight through their guard!  Apiffiany!  For years I was in martial arts and never saw these openings for attack!
It's all in the mind of the fighter.  What you percieve.  And how you choose to deal with the energy of an attack coming at you.  These guys come in strong, and stiff with much force, perfect for utilizing WC concepts.  

As I said, this is all pretty good theory.  I'm hoping to see some WC guys try out the ring soon.


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## mook jong man (Jun 23, 2008)

As a Wing Chun guy myself i pretty much agree with what you said but i would add that Wing Chun people need to practice sprawling.
 In our school we used to sometimes practice chi sau with a partner trying to take you down at random. With out exception most people got taken down the first couple of times they did it but after a while they were able to sprawl and stop the attacker completing the grip. 
The sprawl is too good a technique to be ignored, im only 5 foot 3 and its worked pretty well for me.


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## Si-Je (Jun 23, 2008)

I totally agree about sprawling and I think that practicing that with chi sau is an awesome idea!  My hubbie/teacher loves it too.

We do incorporate sprawling in our class, very practical and handy reflex for stopping a takedown.  
My hubbie said you could probably practice sprawling with lat/lop sau too.

But it's not singularly a MMA technique.  We did similar techniques in Japanese Ju-Jitsu, only you incorporated a front choke, tucking the opponents head in your stomach as you clamp their throat with your two forearms and sort of "belly flop" on top of the back of their head.  Taking them to the ground face first. Mean stuff.

Again, great idea with the way you train sprawling!


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## CuongNhuka (Jun 23, 2008)

What I don't understand about shooting is: why does NO one ever knee the guy in the face, or wrap there arm around the guys neck?


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## mook jong man (Jun 23, 2008)

Glad you liked it, i think chi sau is a great platform for practising a lot of different reflex drills from.
 One of my other instructors who is very much into reality based self defence used to get us to do chi sau and while you were rolling, a third person would come up to the side and try to stab you with a rubber knife or even the person your rolling with would pull out the knife. 
It was a great way to work on your awareness because as you would know in a real situation you tend to get the tunnel vision effect and only concentrate on the person in front of you and forget about their friends standing off to the side. 
There is a lot of drills that can be done with chi sau if you use your imagination and i hate to say this cliche think outside the square or should i say circle which would be more apt for chi sau.


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## mook jong man (Jun 24, 2008)

CuongNhuka said:


> What I don't understand about shooting is: why does NO one ever knee the guy in the face, or wrap there arm around the guys neck?


I think it depends on how high or low the shoot is .
 But the first thing you've got to do is get those legs back and absorb his initial momentum. 
I reckon if you try and knee strike while he's coming in you might be lucky but i think he will just grab your leg and take you down even easier.
 I tend to think sprawl first then do something. 
One of my instructors said never let them complete the grip.
 In Australia where im from your more likely to be tackled than get a full on shoot for your bootstraps type of thing because a lot of boys grow up playing rugby league here. 
 In my opinion you should sprawl first then jam your forearm into their collarbone like a fook sau and the other arm use a chit sau to stop them completing the grip all the while keeping your legs back then apply something.
 Preferably something not using legs because there waiting for that leg to come up so they can grab it . 
If they come in really low i do a full on sprawl and fall on there upper back sort of like what si-je said but not as brutal.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jun 24, 2008)

The simple answer is that there is no leverage. The shooter is aiming to grab your legs and take you down quickly
Guillotines are hard to pull off from there and are also fairly easy to counter
Knees mean that you are given the shooter your leg (which is what he was aiming for in the first place)

Si-je, your experience of the BJJ guy running at you is one experience. There are thousands of different takedowns. My advice is to go onto youtube and type in 'bjj takedown' to get a rough idea of the different approaches. The shoot (tackle) is the easiest because it is hard to counter 

Remember that BJJ is derived from Judo and incorperates many Judo throws and takedowns

As I have mentioned before, many professional cage fighters are not high ranking martial arts masters
They are jack of all trades and usually they will work primarily on conditioning and fitness

Some do have very strong backgrounds in arts like BJJ or boxing, but generally they are just tough guys who learn how to scrap

To put it into context, Kevin Chan who is one of the best wing chun guys on the planet, regularly trains with and trains cage fighters. He has judged UFC tournaments in the UK and is very knowledgable on cage fighting 
He himself has admitted that wing chun would not hold up on its own in the cage. 

I have also mentioned before that the best way of seeing this is to go down to your local BJJ gym and having a look at the free sparring

You soon realise how tough it is to fight a good BJJ guy/gal

I know that the chunners on here don't want their art being criticized and that is not the aim of this thread. You merely get to a stage where you realise that wing chun does not cover everything. Neither does ANY martial art. Boxing has no kicking. BJJ has limited striking. The list goes on. 

But many of us do arts because we are interested in them. Not to argue that our art is the best art with other practitioners


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## Si-Je (Jun 24, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Si-je, your experience of the BJJ guy running at you is one experience. There are thousands of different takedowns. My advice is to go onto youtube and type in 'bjj takedown' to get a rough idea of the different approaches. The shoot (tackle) is the easiest because it is hard to counter
> 
> Remember that BJJ is derived from Judo and incorperates many Judo throws and takedowns


 
Well, after the guy did the running thing, he came closer and feignted until he felt ready to try to shoot in.  That was trickier.  I don't generally jump into an opponent as much as my instructors like.  I can usually read a bait or taunt.  Just wait for the contact.  Honestly, the body follows the head, so I tend to prefer to simply push the head down to the floor and sprawl.  That way I can still feel where their energy's going and I'm not fully committed in movement.  It tends to slow them down too.

As for the Judo influences in BJJ, I haven't seen much in the ring.  But I think each fighter picks the techniques they like the best or are the most comfortable with and reuses them when fighting.  But to execute a good judo throw in the ring would require a couple of years training in judo.  That's kinda what I mean.  If these guys devoted a year in each art or more, you'd see a different calibur of fighters.

It wasn't until after two years training WC that I even found out that there were joint locks in the art.  And throws, granted their mainly head and neck throws, but nevertheless.  
If you stay in most arts long enough, they tend to cover more than appears.  And WC is very subtle and decietful.  Most people understand the speed, chain punching, and hand trapping (if they ever heard of the art before) for which WC is most known for.  But very few realize that it's one of the few arts that cover as many situations for self defense.  As an empty hand art, I feel it covers all areas of combat.  

Like I said, I was very proud of my Ju-jitsu ground technique, but upon even just seeing the anti-grappling for the first time, I was and am still eager to learn more WC ground technique.  It just works so well, and still allows me to keep my personal space on the ground.  Believe it or not, being a smaller person does NOT give you more advantage over a large opponent on the ground.  Better hit the weights! lol!
Especially if they know what you know.

example:  I'm 125lbs, and my hubbie/teacher is 250lbs, and when he puts his ENTIRE body weight say on my stomach or chest like in a mount, it's hell and high water before I can roll him off me.  And if he simply lays down on top, in say a front choke, ack!  Yet the more I keep his full weight off my body the more manuverability I have on the ground.  LOL!  He can smother me with his chest he's so much larger than I!  

So basically, the more I can avoid that point of combat, the better for my ribs!  And the sooner I get back up the better, especially if it's before he does, and I can get in a few punches, knee, kick, forearm shiver in while I'm getting up too.  

The idea is to keep them down while you keep your feet.  Even when I took ju-jitsu we hardly ever went to the ground with the opponent after a throw, or sweep.  To the knees was the most desireable, your knees in their neck and/or ribs while flexing a joint lock or choke.  (But we trained straight for the break and not the submission as well.)


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## graychuan (Jun 24, 2008)

Why are you guys waiting for these shoots? Especially if you know the opponent is a grappler. Should you not be attacking and taking the space? Take the fight immediately to where your weapons work. Besides thats why they are shooting... trying to get you to the ground. How can they shoot or fight you if they are fighting for thier own balance?


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## KamonGuy2 (Jun 25, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> Well, after the guy did the running thing, he came closer and feignted until he felt ready to try to shoot in. That was trickier. I don't generally jump into an opponent as much as my instructors like. I can usually read a bait or taunt. Just wait for the contact. Honestly, the body follows the head, so I tend to prefer to simply push the head down to the floor and sprawl. That way I can still feel where their energy's going and I'm not fully committed in movement. It tends to slow them down too.
> 
> As for the Judo influences in BJJ, I haven't seen much in the ring. But I think each fighter picks the techniques they like the best or are the most comfortable with and reuses them when fighting. But to execute a good judo throw in the ring would require a couple of years training in judo. That's kinda what I mean. If these guys devoted a year in each art or more, you'd see a different calibur of fighters.
> 
> ...


 
The thing is, you will often not have a choice whether you go to ground. The number of times I've been grabbed from behind or attacked suddenly. Obviously if you are fighting in a ring or sport format then it is fairly easy to keep your feet if you know what you're doing. 

However, BJJ isn't just about groundwork. They do as much upright clinchwork as floorwork. The reason why you don't see that in the cage is because in pure BJJ you aren't allowed to knee or headbutt your opponent etc. But the clinchwork is still very important

Anti-grappling is such a poor concept. Sprawling is not 'anti- grappling' as it stems from grappling techniques. Wing chun fighters who try to use kung fu moves while on the ground are hilarious to watch. 

There is a great clip on youtube of Royce Gracie vs a kung fu expert in his gym. The kung fu guy initially gets some good hits in but then Royce takes him down and thats that, despite the kung fu guy desperately trying to anti-grapple

As I have always said, if you want to grapple, use a grappling art. Don't try to make your art stretch to fit it in

Graychuan - it is not as easy as you think to keep space. Closing distance is very natural, because space closes, especially in bars, clubs, kebab shops, where you will not have room to jump around keeping distance

I'm a big guy but I can close distance very well


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## Si-Je (Jun 25, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Anti-grappling is such a poor concept. Sprawling is not 'anti- grappling' as it stems from grappling techniques. Wing chun fighters who try to use kung fu moves while on the ground are hilarious to watch.
> 
> There is a great clip on youtube of Royce Gracie vs a kung fu expert in his gym. The kung fu guy initially gets some good hits in but then Royce takes him down and thats that, despite the kung fu guy desperately trying to anti-grapple
> 
> As I have always said, if you want to grapple, use a grappling art. Don't try to make your art stretch to fit it in


 
I've seen that fight.  That style of Kung Fu didn't teach anti-grappling!  That poor kung fu guy!  The gracies all came into his school in numerous numbers and challenged the kung fu guy.
Looked like bullies to me.

There is nothing on video I've seen with a grappler fighting a opponent that has been trained anti-grappling.  Your useing a vid as an example that doesn't fit the equation.

And the mindset of anti-grappling is to NOT grapple the grappler.  Not to play the wrestling game with an opponent that is comfortable grappling.  

i.e. if I had to defend against a very strong kicker, I wouldn't stand in kicking range all day and try to out kick him!  I'd aim to get as close as possible to him and take away his space for kicking me.  
Then I could execute my techniqe and fight the battle on MY terms according to MY training.

Same philosophy when fighting a wrestler, or grappler.  He's good at that game, and now I want to take it from him.  Lets play the game I'm good at.  He grabs me, I punch, kick, knee, (sneak in a plam, or forearm strike) I keep wiggling and attacking, not allowing him to get set in his desired position.  For if I allow a grappler to get set on a lock or choke, then I could very well be done for.  Even if I know BJJ or grappling.  It's just too risky.

When I first started to learn the WT ground fighting, I got matched up with a high school wrestler.  He was between the legs (inside my "guard") and he set his weight in a manner I couldn't so easily roll him over.  He was great practice!  (and twice my size and weight)  My teacher quickly showed me what needed to be done to get him "out of my guard," whatever.  

(I hate that term, in guard.  I don't feel guarded when an opponent is in that position.  I feel really vulnerable, and don't understand why this is even considered a desireable position for a fighter.) --just personal preference.

Plus, I think many don't know that there are some really neat WC techniques for getting out of arm bars, and all kinds of joint locks.  Even after an opponent has you in the lock.  Standing, on the ground too.  I've just been starting to learn these "escapes" because my ju-jitsu training has a tendancy to get in the way.
I keep wanting to lock out my arms (i.e. reinvorce a joint lock or choke by grabbing my arms) and have been trained to "tap out" when a lock gets painful.  (we used to say maite) so, I hesitate too much.  But, I'm getting better!


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## CuongNhuka (Jun 25, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> (I hate that term, in guard. I don't feel guarded when an opponent is in that position. I feel really vulnerable, and don't understand why this is even considered a desireable position for a fighter.)


 
It's called the guard because if you're in the 'bottom' position you can use your hips to control your opponent. You can have him or really any direction you want, assuming you can manipulate him (generally a little softening is needed). If your opponent goes to strike you can flex so that he misses, or the blow is softened. If you want to go for a lock, it's easier from the bottom position. It is also possible to go to the mount from the guard. However, if you were in the bottom position of the mount, you would rather be in the top position of the guard.


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## graychuan (Jun 25, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Graychuan - it is not as easy as you think to keep space. Closing distance is very natural, because space closes, especially in bars, clubs, kebab shops, where you will not have room to jump around keeping distance
> 
> I'm a big guy but I can close distance very well


 
Im sort of confused. I thought this was what I was trying to say. I may not have been clear. The whole thing is to close FIRST. Dont wait for the shoot.  Dont wait for anything. Taking the space first gives you the control no matter the venue for the fight. Dont wait for the shoot.


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## Si-Je (Jun 25, 2008)

graychuan said:


> Im sort of confused. I thought this was what I was trying to say. I may not have been clear. The whole thing is to close FIRST. Dont wait for the shoot. Dont wait for anything. Taking the space first gives you the control no matter the venue for the fight. Dont wait for the shoot.


 
I know what you mean.  I just got hung up on expaining the ideal behind defending a grappler in particular.  On the street you won't know their style.  If they even have one.

As for the "guard" mentality, I really don't like it at all.  Instead of "flexing" with my hips to ward blows, I'd really enjoy chi sau do dispell the power and change the direction of the opponents weight.  That's kind of an "now I'm in real trouble" position to fight from.  Not your ultamate goal for fighting position.

Graychuan's thinking is more correct.
Play the fight on your terms immediately.  Take away your opponents options for defense first rattle out of the box.

I just wanted to feel out folk's mindset in this type of fighting.  There seems to be alot of focus on the grappling technique and defense of it.  That's probably why I have a hard time "rooting" when I know a grappler is coming in to shoot on me.  I mentally freak myself out.  thinking, " oh no, he's going to shoot in and pick me up off the ground and slam me."  By the time I focus on rooting, their already picking me up, and I've missed all kinds of opportunity to attack and defend.


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## Nolerama (Jun 25, 2008)

Not all MMAers "shoot" from a distance. Actually it's pretty good technique to make contact, gain control of the opponent's body in the clinch, then slide down and go for a take down.

That's pretty much been the idea of shooting in for a takedown after the early UFCs when fighters started respecting grappling arts.

Technique is in the eye of the beholder anyway... As well as an advantageous position. Adaptability and performance make a fighter.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jun 26, 2008)

Adding on to Nolerama - shooting is just one form of takedown. It is a popular one because it is hard to stop. Yet there are many many others

I was lucky enough to train under Mauricio Gomez in a grapping seminar a few weeks back and a good part of the session was dedicated to takedowns which included engaging a clinch from distance

My earlier point to Graychuan - I was talking about the persepctive of the BJJ guy. When you are fighting a BJJ guy the last thing you want to do is close distance, because tehy have no long range game
However, my point was that sometimes long range game goes out the window (if you have tight jeans on or you're stuck in a club, kebab shop where you can't move around)

That is why it is often difficult to fight on your terms, because BJJ and wing chun often work in similar ranges and use similar concepts

And Si-Je, whilst it may have seemed like the Gracies are bullies, they are not. They are regularly challenged or bad mouthed by people, and their answer is simple, come and prove it. Instead of smashing,choking and generally hurting a person, they will calmly control and submit the person they fight, showing them that a lot of people who think they can fight often can't or ignore the ground game. 

To me, that has more honour and honesty than a lot of the wing chun backstabbing that goes on!! I used to be guilty of challenge matches etc, but soon realised that whilst satisfying didn't really help the wing chun in-fighting. I wish I could have been nicer with my fights to help the other fighter see that they didn't have to go round causing trouble and vice versa. Certainly nowadays I will always protect my class and stand my ground, but I generally don't go looking for trouble.


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## Si-Je (Jun 26, 2008)

I'm glad you don't look for fights anymore, and yes many people talk alot of trash.  But that particular gracie fight he didn't just submit the kung fu stylist, he got him to the ground and slapped him repeatedly after he was submitted with intention to humiliate.

But, I don't care to talk about those guys.  There are Wing Chun masters and such that I truely don't care about either because of their attitudes.
And the politics of martial arts in general are very undesirable to me.  

But in case of gaining control from a standing clinch, we actually were working on that last night in training.  Fun stuff!  The mindset is still the same, your opponent grabs you, you don't grab back, you strike.  It usually takes both hands to get a good clinch, this just tells me that you arms are busy, and thus free's me up to strike almost unchallenged.
We were playing around with the joint lock escapes too, which I'm gaining more confidence with.  Our students really liked doing lap sau with the shoot practice, good drill!

I'm kinda glad that the general mindset is still BJJ "rules in the ring" when it comes to WC competing.  This will make our opponents rash, over-confident, and predictable whether in or out of the ring.  I'm still surprised though, since strikers have been consistantly defeating BJJ in the rings lately.  I almost expected opinions to lean towards muy tai or a good boxer in the ring against WC, but it seems people know better.  (although a good boxer can bait you into a trap if your too aggressive from too far away).  

Now that the baby is older I can train the anti-grappling more, but man!  She likes to run all over the mats!  I usually train with her in a baby backpack (it's like hauling yoda all over the classroom!)  But, I'm lucky my hubbie is the teacher otherwise I couldn't train at all for the next 3-4 years!  Probably would have to wait until she's 8 or 10 so she could join in the class, if the instructor would allow that.  we do, but most don't.

Anyways, still I wonder.... If a fighter used 100% WC/WT (gotta have WT for the anti-grappling) in the ring, would people even get it?  Would they believe it if he won?  Would they make excuses for the other fighter, or say that the WC guy was just fighting a "bum" fighter?  I think that they wouldn't even understand or reconize the anti-grappling technique, and try to credit BJJ with the techniques.  sigh.  
But, no matter, as long as he wins, I wouldn't even care if a WC fighter was disqualified!  That would suit me fine.  Ken Shamrock was disqualified for kneeing a BJJ fighter in the back of the head.  Well, then he started another fighting league.  Didn't seem to phase him much either.


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## geezer (Jun 26, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> Anyways, still I wonder.... If a fighter used 100% WC/WT (gotta have WT for the anti-grappling) in the ring, would people even get it?



Probably not. But then we're not really about sport fighting are we. Still it would be nice to see more good WC/WT shown in public. 

BTW I'm glad you typed "WC/WT". I was a founding member of WT in the USA and I've always hated the political garbage that has divided the WC/WT community. I have recently joined a new WT association that _actually recognises_ the contributions of the various other WT/WC lineages. Clearly you and your husband share this open-minded attitude or you wouldn't be open to the WT "antigrappling" strategies (although I suspect a lot of this has _always_ been in WC/WT at the highest levels).


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## matsu (Jun 26, 2008)

WC/WT?????

CAN SOMEONE POINT ME IN THE DIRECTION OF...oops caps lock sorry.......
a thread to explain some of this. 
i am getting confused and very curious about all of the varients/lineages etc etc so need to research this muchly....:idunno:

big fanx and sorry to hijack the thread
matsu


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## Si-Je (Jun 26, 2008)

I don't always type in WT because my typing gets lazy.  

WT that I'm familiar with is a direct break off from Lueng Ting with alot of politics.  Being that the anti-grappling is origional to Sifu Emin, and has become contagious between like minded WC/WT pracitioners.  I like the principles behind the anti-grappling and find it to be ingenious in it's own right.  I don't really care to debate if it's "true" wing chun or not, it's true to the nature of Wing Chun and that works for me.  (plus it just works better for me than the other ground fighting I've trained in the past.)  

I'd just rather use ground fighting technique that will help me defend even if I'm trapped in my car behind the steering wheel, or arm pinned on the ground in a door frame.  It's very useful in tight quarters, that's why I figure that in an area with more room, it would still be effective.  Unless the opponent is running away, (I hate that!) 

My hubbie's still trying to get me to "shoot" my stance into an opponent that is feinting a punch and dodging backwards.   (I'd rather wait until they actually "do" something with commitment).  That's probably why I suck with multiple attackers.  lol!


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## matsu (Jun 27, 2008)

wt=?? sorry beginners ignorance


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## KamonGuy2 (Jun 27, 2008)

WT = Wing Tsun
WC = Wing Chun
VT = Ving Tsun

The point is that the Chinese do not have an alphabet like in English, so the Westerners like myself translate the sound
When you say all three of the above or hear a Chinese person say it, they sound exactly the same

They have alternate spellings as the founders of these federations wanted people to identify the differences of their art to another. (ie people would know that WT wasn't exactly the same system taught by Yip Man

Going back to topic - I don't think anyone claims that BJJ rules the ring. In my experience I have found it very easy to destroy a person who uses only BJJ

What we were saying is that you need a ground game if you want to fight in a sport based competition like cage fighting, whether it be BJJ, Sombo, Judo or Catch wrestling.

Overall, wing chun is one of the strongest arts for street fighting. 

Yet it is always handy to use other arts to complement it in case things go wrong (you get dragged to the ground, you experience a long range fighter etc)

To answer the original topic, a wing chunner would not last two seconds in the cage if that is all he was using. It is a different format where the rules do not allow many of the chunners techniques. That is not a cop out, just fact. And before people kick off again - as soon as a chunner steps into UFC I will come on here and apologise. So far, no-one has, and cage fighting has been going for a long time


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## graychuan (Jun 27, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> My earlier point to Graychuan - I was talking about the persepctive of the BJJ guy. When you are fighting a BJJ guy the last thing you want to do is close distance...


 

With all due respect, man, Im going to have to just agree to disagree...but I sincerly appreciate your opinion.

In the arts that I study...fighting is all about closing. Fights do not end until the distance is closed and one or the other ends it. Just because BJJers like to go to the ground doesnt mean they are the only ones that are dangerous in a clinch. In fact, in Kempo we are taught to do a quick throw or takedown if there is a stalemate in the clinch or just when there is an opportunity if it improves the situation for us.
As far as _fighting ranges_ go....this is a good concept for discussion and classification of techniques,concepts, and thoery.... but , ultimately, my opinion is that there is only ONE range in fighting.


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## Si-Je (Jun 27, 2008)

Don't forget wing Tzun! lol!  (just found out it's a new federation)  

I still feel that the anti-grappling is plenty effective against wrestlers, and grapplers.  Leg bong sau!  Chi Sau with the legs! Neat stuff!:headbangin:


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## KamonGuy2 (Jun 27, 2008)

graychuan said:


> With all due respect, man, Im going to have to just agree to disagree...but I sincerly appreciate your opinion.
> 
> In the arts that I study...fighting is all about closing. Fights do not end until the distance is closed and one or the other ends it. Just because BJJers like to go to the ground doesnt mean they are the only ones that are dangerous in a clinch. In fact, in Kempo we are taught to do a quick throw or takedown if there is a stalemate in the clinch or just when there is an opportunity if it improves the situation for us.
> As far as _fighting ranges_ go....this is a good concept for discussion and classification of techniques,concepts, and thoery.... but , ultimately, my opinion is that there is only ONE range in fighting.


Oh dear....
My advice to you, would be to get down to a BJJ gym and try it out

I used to think that wing chun could not be stopped and was the ultimate until I was mugged a few years back and it makes you realise that if you are attacked and forced to the ground, your wing chun is very limited
I have since been to various arts and sparred light and hard and found that wing chun didn't too badly, but had gaps

Wing chun is a great style (which is why I practice it religiously) but it has limits - wing chun people who acknowledge this are far more wise than those teachers who preach that wing chun is the ultimate and will beat any other style

As for short range game, my point was that if you fight a martial artist who specialises at a certain range DO NOT play his game. That is why you will see people in the cage fighting at distance (swing kicks, push kicks, wild punches etc) 
As I said, in the case of the streetfight you will not often have this option, which is why wing chun is very good. However, if you do that against a BJJ guy, you are going to struggle

This is why, the cage and streetfighting are two seperate things


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## Si-Je (Jun 27, 2008)

Well, now.  The street is a different arena than the cage.  WC was made special for the street.  But, sure, like any art it has limitations.  (I just find more and more that it has less and less limitations than I once thought).  

I came into WC to give me a bridge to use my ju-jitsu on an opponent, but soon found that I didn't need it and that ju-jitsu takes much longer to execute on a moving attack.  
I tried many times to surprise and get my hubbie (not a hubbie at the time) into various ju-jitsu techniques.  Never could.  And using japanese style, we choke and use joint locks standing and sitting too, not just on the ground.  That style you don't have to "takedown" your opponent to break his/her arm.  Even when I snuck in a leg kick, I couldn't get him flexed.  He just countered me and flirted while doing it!  (really pissed me off at the time too, lol!)  But he's been doing WC for a long time.  

In the cage would be a different approach to WC application.  Like, you'd want to "Blitz" into an opponent (just not to soon) and commit yourself to a single apponent until completion on the ground.


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## graychuan (Jun 27, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Oh dear....
> My advice to you, would be to get down to a BJJ gym and try it out



Been there. Done that. Which is my point. Also I frequently have thrown or taken down grapplers while they are still trying to shoot. Dont assume that just because I am not a grappler or dont do sanctioned cage matches that I havent trained against grappling...or anything else for that matter. TKD, MT, Grapplers and other Kung Fu Stylists.


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## graychuan (Jun 27, 2008)

graychuan said:


> Been there. Done that. Which is my point. Also I frequently have thrown or taken down grapplers while they are still trying to shoot. Dont assume that just because I am not a grappler or dont do sanctioned cage matches that I havent trained against grappling...or anything else for that matter. TKD, MT, Grapplers and other Kung Fu Stylists.


 

With regards to this post ,Kamonguy, please dont take anything the wrong way. I totally get where you are comming from. Since there is no face expression or voice inflection....just text on the screen...I didnt want to come across the wrong way. If anything...Im just very confident in my own skills to make these statements. In the end its all skill and will...technique aganst technique.

Peace


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## qwksilver61 (Jun 28, 2008)

All I can say to all of you is that if your opponent is pretty tough and is well grounded in ground fighting,you got your hands full.Some guys can take a lot of punishment.Better have some good Wing Tsun under your belt.


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## dungeonworks (Jun 28, 2008)

qwksilver61 said:


> All I can say to all of you is that if your opponent is pretty tough and is well grounded in ground fighting,you got your hands full.Some guys can take a lot of punishment.Better have some good Wing Tsun under your belt.



Agreed.  I can only add that some of what is "presumed" about ground fighting in this thread makes it *glaringly obvious* those that could benefit doing some actual ground training in a non-Wing Chun setting.  I am not trying to be rude, just honest.  Heck, take an all-day MMA seminar or BJJ seminar where you get to role with actual schooled grappler's.  It will give you a more accurate and sometimes different assessment of your technique and gameplan when things go all FUBAR for you.  I would even suggest some med.-Heavy full contact MMA sparring as well.  You need to see how quick, good, and non telegraphic a halfway decent wrestler can shoot in on you.  It looks sooooo different when you see it in the UFC or other MMA competition because of the angle and elimination of the fear of getting slammed or put on your back.  This is much different than having a like-minded Wing Chun (or karate, tae kwon do...ect) "acting" the part of the grappler.

To make a long story short, I think some here are minimizing what a decent grappler can do with a shot and how good they can do it.


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## Nolerama (Jun 28, 2008)

I don't think a shoot defense makes or breaks anyone in an MMA ring. That's just for an opponent that wants to take you to the ground.

What about the guy who wants to stand up and trade punches, kicks, elbows, knees and shoulders? Does striking power make a difference? Are traditional WC strikes more powerful than other arts?

What are WCs answers to escaping when someone takes your back in the clinch?

There are a lot of questions, but there are definitely answers in all of the martial arts.

I think defending against a technique is great, but what about the preparation of succumbing to said technique? If you train to only defend against takedowns, but have no idea what to do on the ground, then your training is at a loss. No one is perfect, especially fighters. Does this anti-grappling training in WC stress the high probability that the fight will end up on the ground? If so, what are the answers? What are the escapes? Who develops/practices this in WC circles?


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## dungeonworks (Jun 28, 2008)

Nolerama said:


> I don't think a shoot defense makes or breaks anyone in an MMA ring. That's just for an opponent that wants to take you to the ground.
> 
> What about the guy who wants to stand up and trade punches, kicks, elbows, knees and shoulders? Does striking power make a difference? Are traditional WC strikes more powerful than other arts?
> 
> ...



I am too new at WC/WT/VT to know how they handle someone on the back other than doing what you can to regain center.   As far as not knowing what to do on the ground with good takedown defense being useless....not if you can scramble well and have decent escapes.  Also, that "every fight goes to the ground" stuff is just not true and is over hyped by the Gracie's.  None of my adult fights went to the ground more than a minute.  I either scrambled out or escaped the headlock, which is the most used hold by John Doe bar brawler/average Joe.  I never fought with anyone that was great at grappling outside the old MMA gym I trained at.


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## CuongNhuka (Jun 28, 2008)

dungeonworks said:


> I I never fought with anyone that was great at grappling outside the old MMA gym I trained at.


 
Thats because grappling (of any kind) requires a high degree of skill and training at. It is not something you can learn from watching UFC. You can gleem some basics of striking, and some gross-motor grappling, but that's all. Gross-motor against refined skills = refined skills winning (almost, but not, always). Not to mention, a good deal of street fighters seem to be of the metality that grappling is 'gay', and will do there best to avoid such a situation.


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## Si-Je (Jun 28, 2008)

How about three years Ju-Jitsu training?
My hubbie did Judo for 4-5 years, back in the day.  

There's nothing like the total fear when you get whipped off our feet and all you see is the celing before you feel the slam!  (The trick is to stay completely relaxed, like a rag doll when you get thrown.  Oh, and don't forget to exhale!  )

But honestly, throws are easier if your opponent's weight is shifted or committed in movement in some direction.  With WC your not.  Your center of gravity is practically in your knees!  You have to shoot in at the knees to get a chance, but make sure you don't run straight into a foot or knee.  I know grapplers train for this and expect it, even are tough enough to "take" a good shot or two.  But, It only takes one good shot to change a wrestler or grapplers energy and angle of attack.  
I'm not worried about knocking out a guy with the first strike or two, I just need to get him displaced from his origional course of motion.
Then I can focus on re-direction of the shoot, their body is more controllable when they come in strong, especially fast.
Coming in fast gets them re-directed fast at the point where they think they have achieved their technique.  So before they have time to totally change their body position, and shift their weight back you have truely attacked them where their vulnerable.

In the cage you can't hit the top of the head, back of the neck, but you can plant your hand on the back of their neck and direct them away, or slam a forearm down on the neck while "sprawling" to keep your legs out of the way, or even better, double gong sau the approaching arms and pivot.  All these things and more are available, the trick is NOT to plan to do them, just know the technique and wait for the opponent to direct you to the technique that you need.  
Don't anticipate, don't plan your defense against these attacks.  The more time you spend thinking about grappling, BJJ or much of any other technique than the ones your training and using, the more of a chance you risk of falling into the mindset of your opponent and fighting on HIS terms.

Sensitivity, spring energy, relaxation.  If you "watch" for your opponent's shoot, you'll wait too long on your attacking window, and give them time to do it.  Then you'll "fear" being slammed to the ground, then your thinking in advance to your opponent's favor, your manifesting HIS victory.
Now, stop that!
Take what comes, act before the opponent has a chance to formulate a "plan" of attack.  Keep them off balance, guessing, hesitating out of fear, uncertian of their plan of attack.  Don't waste time thinking about what they "might" do to you.  Then your just stressing about something that hasn't even happened yet!
Don't think.
Act.


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## dungeonworks (Jun 28, 2008)

CuongNhuka said:


> Thats because grappling (of any kind) requires a high degree of skill and training at. It is not something you can learn from watching UFC. You can gleem some basics of striking, and some gross-motor grappling, but that's all. Gross-motor against refined skills = refined skills winning (almost, but not, always). Not to mention, a good deal of street fighters seem to be of the metality that grappling is 'gay', and will do there best to avoid such a situation.




That is pretty much what I said, just based on my own confrontations outside a kickboxing ring or sparring in a cage.  Still, some of the guys I sparred MMA with can get a shot in just as sneaky as a boxer/striking martial artist can land a jab or cross.   There are many intricacies that people never exposed to this type of training, practice, or real world fighting are discounting....such as "Why don't they just...(insert technique here)" or "I would just...(insert technique here)".

On the flipside of the OP's topic, I hear grapplers say they'd just get a striker to the ground, so this argument goes both ways with only one way to settle it....and in this guy's opinion, it all boils down to the individual skills of the fighters and the intangibles of the situation...slipping, missing, and just plain dumb luck.


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## Si-Je (Jun 29, 2008)

dungeonworks said:


> That is pretty much what I said, just based on my own confrontations outside a kickboxing ring or sparring in a cage. Still, some of the guys I sparred MMA with can get a shot in just as sneaky as a boxer/striking martial artist can land a jab or cross. There are many intricacies that people never exposed to this type of training, practice, or real world fighting are discounting....such as "Why don't they just...(insert technique here)" or "I would just...(insert technique here)".
> 
> On the flipside of the OP's topic, I hear grapplers say they'd just get a striker to the ground, so this argument goes both ways with only one way to settle it....and in this guy's opinion, it all boils down to the individual skills of the fighters and the intangibles of the situation...slipping, missing, and just plain dumb luck.


 
This is a perfect example of anticipating the outcome of the conflict.  On both sides, strikers and grapplers.  Each fighter has already in their mind what they plan to do.  My mom used to say, "life is what happens to you while your busy planning for something else."
Same same in a fight.  So, what's the point of planning?  Train, work sensitivity, and adapt to the fighter and the conditions.  Take what the opponent's giving you, energy, inertia, strength, whatever, and use it to your benefit.  Don't allow them to bait you and trick you into playing on their playground.  
The intangibles, slipping, missing, dumb luck are irrelevant.  
You drill to produce muscle memory on specific techniques in a "planned" setting to teach your body to react spontaneously without thinking.  Too many people get hung up on the drills and techniques of WC or any other art, and when they try to imagine doing these techniques in the ring or on the street they mentally "choke".  Because they know that they cannot engage in a planned manner for they don't really know what the opponent will do or what the situation will throw at them.  
This is too much thought.
And slows down your reaction time when given opportunity in a fight, because your thinking of doing another technique and find out too late, that you have to switch your thinking to a different technique because the opponent didn't do what you thought they would do.
Keep the mind empty, and quiet.  Trust in your sensitivity, and adaptability, and more opportunity to attack and defend will present itself.  This is Wing Chun.
The Ring is just another stage to perform upon.  Just another senario with or without rules that you have to adapt to.


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## dungeonworks (Jun 29, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> This is a perfect example of anticipating the outcome of the conflict.  On both sides, strikers and grapplers.  Each fighter has already in their mind what they plan to do.  My mom used to say, "life is what happens to you while your busy planning for something else."
> Same same in a fight.  So, what's the point of planning?  Train, work sensitivity, and adapt to the fighter and the conditions.  Take what the opponent's giving you, energy, inertia, strength, whatever, and use it to your benefit.  Don't allow them to bait you and trick you into playing on their playground.
> The intangibles, slipping, missing, dumb luck are irrelevant.
> You drill to produce muscle memory on specific techniques in a "planned" setting to teach your body to react spontaneously without thinking.  Too many people get hung up on the drills and techniques of WC or any other art, and when they try to imagine doing these techniques in the ring or on the street they mentally "choke".  Because they know that they cannot engage in a planned manner for they don't really know what the opponent will do or what the situation will throw at them.
> ...



Well said...and the reason I practice only Wing Chun these days.  Wing Chun seems to fill in a lot of holes I had from various other styles and systems I have done or dabbled in.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 29, 2008)

Definately get into an MMA gym, BJJ gym, Wrestling gym etc. and roll with some experienced people outside of your school. (not one of your students)  It will only make you better in the long run.  WC/WT/VT is an awesome street art but do not be one dimensional and look around and see what other people do.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jun 30, 2008)

graychuan said:


> With regards to this post ,Kamonguy, please dont take anything the wrong way. I totally get where you are comming from. Since there is no face expression or voice inflection....just text on the screen...I didnt want to come across the wrong way. If anything...Im just very confident in my own skills to make these statements. In the end its all skill and will...technique aganst technique.
> 
> Peace


Not at all. We all have different viewpoints and experiences
All I would say is that I have seen very very experienced kung fu guys floored by BJJ guys or MMA guys, purely because they were over confident in wing chun. 

As we have said, wing chun is a great art, but too many people have trained in it and nothing else, so when they play around with a good MMA guy, they get stuck

You should never assume that a fight will always stay upright and you should never assume that it will go to the floor

Many BJJ guys have come unstuck because they tried relentlessly to fight their way. You must adapt to wherever the fight goes. I had a fight on the beach once (very 'karate kid') and it was very strange as my footwork was more sluggish because of the sand

But you cannot choose who you fight or where you fight sometimes and it is no good preaching that one art alone will cover all this

Wing chun does not

That is me done with this thread

Peace out


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## Si-Je (Jun 30, 2008)

Check out this video on Youtube.  You can come to your own conclusions.  The quality isn't great, but you can see clearly the technique used by the WT fighter against a larger opponent.


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## dungeonworks (Jun 30, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> Check out this video on Youtube.  You can come to your own conclusions.  The quality isn't great, but you can see clearly the technique used by the WT fighter against a larger opponent.




The quality of what?  The acting??  That ain't no real fight!!! LOL


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## Si-Je (Jul 1, 2008)

What makes it look fake?  Just wondering.
It looked real to me.  They didn't act because they just seem to get straight down to business.  I guess, I figure that even if it's correographed the senario is still applicipable.  

Sometimes I think we're a little too desensitized here in the states.  Many people have seen similar video or fights on t.v. and when they see someone getting punched and elbowed we just don't realize how much that really hurts!  

I used to watch the video's on comegetyousome.com and see the video's of kids and people fighting in the street.  It looks pretty silly, they just swing all over the place, grab hair, and tackle eachother carelessly.  But, I had to stop watching them because some were really greusome and angered me to see.  (Like the video's of four or five high school girls pounding one girl).  Some were so horrible, I don't even want to remember them enough to type about it!

This video looks like it was filmed from someone's cell phone camera.  
And the guy doing WT looks familiar.  I'm pretty sure that if the "acted" they would be speaking in German.


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## graychuan (Jul 1, 2008)

It looked like a reenactment of a scene from Fight Club. :boxing:


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## dungeonworks (Jul 1, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> What makes it look fake?  Just wondering.
> It looked real to me.  They didn't act because they just seem to get straight down to business.  I guess, I figure that even if it's correographed the senario is still applicipable.
> 
> Sometimes I think we're a little too desensitized here in the states.  Many people have seen similar video or fights on t.v. and when they see someone getting punched and elbowed we just don't realize how much that really hurts!
> ...



I have seen "a few" bar fights as a spectator and participant .  I have never seen one look like this.  The attacks and responses were too "WWE-Like".  Nobody moves like they did, as far as I've seen in the real world.  Not only that, the people were crowded around 3 sides of them but conspicuously left a perfectly clear shot for the camera.  The bars I used to frequent of that type (Hip-Hop/Top 40 dance bars), when a fight on the dance floor broke out, people tend to crowd in a circle to watch....more so in a 1 on 1 situation as in the video.

To me, it clearly looks like a demonstration and not a real fight.  Please do not take anything I wrote as an insult...none was meant.  Maybe a tad bit of dry humor, but I meant no harm.


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## dungeonworks (Jul 1, 2008)

....also note the right haymaker/hook the big guy threw and it flowed right into a duck.  He then hesitates in the ducked position untill the little guy grabs his head and throws him at which time the big dude lands in a perfect left side fall.  Guys I have seen thrown do the best they can to stop it because most don't train, let alone a style where you get tossed around ala Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido...ect.


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## Si-Je (Jul 1, 2008)

I've seen some cool stuff in the mosh pit, and threw a bit of technique myself too.  (the clubs I used to go to.)

I once had a Marine just out of boot camp do a haymaker punch like that on me in high school.  Then I just should threw him in the livingroom.  (still don't know why he had to come at me so hard)  But, you never know when someone's going to get too serious.  

It looks like a pit fight to me.  They both knew why they were there, sized eachother up, and went at it.  I've personally had large guys pick me up like that.  It's really annoying!  I love the WT guy's response to being picked up off the floor.  Just some food for thought.


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## Si-Je (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm just too excited! sorry, getting redundant. lol!  Been training with him this past couple of months.


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