# Do CMA's have a concept similar to Kiai?



## Makalakumu (Nov 4, 2010)

Do CMAs have a concept similar to Kiai?  If so, which ones?  How does it work within the art?


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## clfsean (Nov 4, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> Do CMAs have a concept similar to Kiai?  If so, which ones?  How does it work within the art?



Yep & most of them. Not all use an audible noise, but almost all exhale (or inhale... depending) forcefully & direct on execution of technique. The most common thread I've found in CMA has been steady, continuous breathing throughout the techniques.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 4, 2010)

clfsean said:


> Yep & most of them. Not all use an audible noise, but almost all exhale (or inhale... depending) forcefully & direct on execution of technique. The most common thread I've found in CMA has been steady, continuous breathing throughout the techniques.



That's interesting.  I wonder why Japanese styles focus so much on the audible sound?


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## Flying Crane (Nov 4, 2010)

I believe there may be a lot of variation in the CMA with regard to this issue.

My sigung tells us to just breathe naturally, no matter what we are doing.  This means do not hold your breath, do not time the inhale or exhale with certain movements including strikes, do not exhale sharply to punctuate the strike, do not give a long and drawn out exhale coupled with dynamic tenion, etc.  He feels that if you do these things then you are doing what he calls "squeezing the power", which can increase power in the short term, but contribute to health problems like high blood pressure in the long run.

He feels that the movement should be natural, and the breathing should be natural along with that.  As soon as you are paying attention to timing the breathing or giving a "kiai" or something, then you are no longer breathing naturally.  If you are delivering your strikes with full body integration, then your strikes should be powerful.  If you are not properly uniting the full body, from the ground up, then you end up relying more on physical strength of the arm and shoulders, with some turning thru the waist.  If you execute technique in this fashion, the kiai helps increase power by "squeezing" it out.  But in our method we feel it is not necessary as we use a full body, relaxed method of delivery.

some of this is a bit difficult to describe without being able to show it.


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## oaktree (Nov 4, 2010)

> Do CMAs have a concept similar to Kiai? If so, which ones? How does it work within the art?


 
Yes we do. Kiai &#27671;&#21512; would read as Qihe. 
 I will quote from the Baguazhang classics(songs)



> Song 9
> 
> Close the lips and mouth with the tongue touching the palate,
> 
> ...


 


As others have said it does not always have to be audible. In my opinion,
 Looking at the Hanzi &#27671;&#21512; It is Qi and uniting. So with a common reading to me it can be simply breathing and mind as one to accomplish a task or goal.


Another look is the word he &#21512; uniting is also found in Acupuncture maybe if said to someone who does Acupuncture "Qi he" they might think leading Qi to there points: ST36,ST37,ST39,GB34,BL40,BL39. I will ask some native acupuncturist what their first reaction to the word is. If Xue chimes in maybe his wife can give her first impression of hearing the word as well.



> That's interesting. I wonder why Japanese styles focus so much on the audible sound?


 
This is my opinion. It could be Japanese are more eccentric. It could be they felt that it gives a stronger reaction or contraction of the muscle giving a more forceful sound. It could be that in some CMA the tongue touches the roof of the mouth making it harder to make a loud sound.

So that is my opinions wrong as they may be I apologize for my errors.


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## Master Dan (Nov 4, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> I believe there may be a lot of variation in the CMA with regard to this issue.
> 
> My sigung tells us to just breathe naturally, no matter what we are doing. This means do not hold your breath, do not time the inhale or exhale with certain movements including strikes, do not exhale sharply to punctuate the strike, do not give a long and drawn out exhale coupled with dynamic tenion, etc. He feels that if you do these things then you are doing what he calls "squeezing the power", which can increase power in the short term, but contribute to health problems like high blood pressure in the long run.
> 
> ...


 
*Breathing is very important especially in healing arts and especially chi gong for healing but also for controling pain the term breathing through it mental or physical pain can be reduced or eliminated by rythmic breathing. It has become a real habit with me but I was scolded by a doctor half korean half chinese Ostiopath who spent 10 years with Shaolin Monks when I could use this method to relax specific muscles. He said do not use rythmic breathing in a fight an experieced person will watch your breathing and shock your lungs when full. I was also told never hold your breath on any specfic tension or stretching the the blood capilaries explode when you are under flex.*

*Sounds: Some of the differnt CMA, Okinowan and Japanse styles teach even actual word or phonics to be used during the yell believing they are power words that add chi to a specific application? I have been told by some non asian GM that it does not matter you could say BS or what ever you like? *

*Good point on the high blood presure makes alot of sense related to TCM*


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## mook jong man (Nov 4, 2010)

I have to agree with Flying Crane on the natural breathing thing , in our lineage of Wing Chun we were always told to breathe naturally.

From a Wing Chun perspective it would seem that a kiai would be highly impractical , techniques are executed very rapidly and in a flowing manner.

My late Sifu could throw punches at the rate of ten a second , and execute a barrage of three different low kicks in under a second.
So when would you issue your kiai ?

From the first punch  or kick , or during the whole chain of the technique.
I think it would probably lead to hyperventilation.

Then we have the issue of telegraphing , as it pertains to Chi sau I am looking for the slightest flinch , the slightest change in rhythm to warn me of an impending attack.

One of the things that novice students of Wing Chun will do in Chi sau , is to sometimes hold their breath just before they execute a trap or other type of attack.

It seems to bring about a momentary minute increase in muscular tension that can be felt by the partner prior to the attack.

I believe a kiai or some other audible noise will act in a similar way , there will be some precursor to the attack even before the sound has come out.

So as far as Wing Chun is concerned , relaxed natural breathing is best and less telegraphic.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 4, 2010)

A kiai

I do believe there are some hard exhalations in some of the forms of Chen Style but for the most part it is natural breathing. In Yang style it is only natural breathing. If my memory serves me right there was a lot of heavy exhalation in the Shaolin Long Fist I trained years ago. There is only natural breathing in Police/military Sanda and only natural breathing in Xingyiquan and I do not remember what Bagua did.

My Xingyiquan sifu took this a step further as to why natural breathing was best, of course he only explained after yelling at us several times for tying power to exhalation.

He said it you can only attack or hit with power in combination with exhaling he would attack you right after you exhaled because you would need time to inhale and then exhale again to attack with power and then trying to breathe while under a very aggressive attack would be rather difficult since you were not using natural breathing. I later asked my sanda sifu about this and he pretty much said the same thing.

All my Yang Taijiquan sifu, whenever asked about breathing says Yes you should

My short trip into the Wing Chun world never got into breathing but to be honest I never remember my sifus doing anything but natural breathing


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## Makalakumu (Nov 5, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> I do believe there are some hard exhalations in some of the forms of Chen Style but for the most part it is natural breathing.



This was my experience as well.  During silk reeling and fajing blast, we would exhale hard and audibly.  This is the closest I can remember getting to a kiai in CMA experience, however.


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## ggg214 (Nov 5, 2010)

in our lineage of Xin Yi Liu He, we are also been told to breathing naturally.
but there is a little different thing, every time we finish a set of movement, and have a break or change to another movement, we should do a certain movement, called shou shi&#65288;&#25910;&#21183;&#65289;,like taiji's last movement. while doing this, we need to burst a sound "Yi". it can help you control your breath, slow down your hard breath, and protect your lung.


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## clfsean (Nov 5, 2010)

In CLF we have 3 base sounds:


Yik for punches
Wak for tiger claws
Tik for kicks
There are some other sounds, but those vary with lineage.

These were meant for expressing ging with certain strikes & to identify CLF practitioners from others in large scale fights so that they would be id'ed & not square off against each other. There are other meanings to go along with that thought, but that's it roughly.

Breathing wise, yes we breathe. Naturally & normally & only make certain sounds with certain techniques.


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## TenTigers (Feb 3, 2011)

Higher pitched sounds resonate higher in the body, lower pitched sounds resonate lower. 
Do this: place your hands on your heart and stomach, and then produce a long hum going from a high note down to a low note. You will actually feel it resonate from top to bottom.
When gathering and releasing large power, you breathe from the dan tien and use a lower "Hah" sound.
When doing lighter quick movements, the breath is higher and the sound is released in small amounts, with a "Hite" sound. Also used in jumping.
Also, different sounds affect different energy centers. Wah or wak used in Tiger Claw techniques resonate in solar plexus-the center for emotion such as anger, the emotion associated with the Tiger. It is also used to release this for healing.
That being said, all the older Sifus,(I know a bunch of Sifus in their 60's and 70's) all seem to use the throaty "ahhhhht!" sound.   hmmmm....


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## Guliufa (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm a little late and not on much here but I would like to include my 2 cents - that the Okinawan Kiai is similar to the methods from the Fujian and Hakka arts. 

The term simply means Breath Harmony. It implies harmonizing the technique and the breath to amplify the energy being released. It is not used in every technique. It is applied with finishing techniques. 

I don't do the auditory kiai when I do kata but I do release the breath in such a manner that it is quite audible. I do it if demonstrating - sometimes. 

I was told that during Sanchin practice... I'm a Goju Ryu man, the audible breathing was to let the teacher hear if you were breathing properly. 

I keep in mind that in the early days of westerners training in Okinawa, most of the true knowledge was withheld by the Okinawans. And the Chinese are also known to keep knowledge from foreigners. 

If you look at White Crane Fist, 5 Ancestor Fist, Southern Mantis, Bak Mei, they all have characteristics that can be found in the Okinawan Arts, and the method of Breathing and Fajing is definitely evident. You only have to look at the older lineages of Shorin Ryu and Goju Ryu to see.


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## K-man (Mar 8, 2011)

Guliufa said:


> I'm a little late and not on much here but I would like to include my 2 cents - that the Okinawan Kiai is similar to the methods from the Fujian and Hakka arts.
> 
> The term simply means Breath Harmony. It implies harmonizing the technique and the breath to amplify the energy being released. It is not used in every technique. It is applied with finishing techniques.
> 
> ...


Not all that surprising when you consider that both Kanro Higaonna and Kanbon Uechi both studied CMA in Fuzhow for about 12 years each, Higaonna to master level. :asian:


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## fangjian (Mar 8, 2011)

As also mentioned by clfsean, Choy Lee Fut is the only CMA that comes to mind which has specific types of shouting for specific types of techniques. Hong Ga might as well but can't remember off the top of my head. 

I remember when I use to train Japanese sword techniques, there were specific sounds you were encouraged to make when training, and they would strengthen the internal nature of the technique. In most CMA I have studied shouting is occasionally encouraged (depending on the style or purpose of the form), but more like 'whatever you wanna yell' ( HAH!, YEE!, DEI!!......) 

The Japanese take everything to the next level 

In reference to that additional aspect of ones training, it reminds me of one time I met up with someone in NYC to train some Balintawak ( FMA ).  My dad came along with me and watched. At one point he asked my friend if FMA has any type of internal training, or concept of chi and such. My friend responded with ' Filipinos never had time to think about those things, only about what methods are easiest to learn to kill the enemy'.   hahaha


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 8, 2011)

Internal CMA no kiai, just natural breathing


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## clfsean (Mar 8, 2011)

fangjian said:


> As also mentioned by clfsean, Choy Lee Fut is the only CMA that comes to mind which has specific types of shouting for specific types of techniques. Hong Ga might as well but can't remember off the top of my head.



Hung Ga does, but I think it's only for Tid Sin Kuen. TenTigers can comment & correct where necessary.


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## TenTigers (Mar 9, 2011)

clfsean said:


> Hung Ga does, but I think it's only for Tid Sin Kuen. TenTigers can comment & correct where necessary.


as I had mentioned before, larger rooted strikes such as ping choy use "ha" sound, shorter quick moves use an "hite!" sound, biu jee, or snake strikes use the breath miserly, as it utilizes multiple strikes on one breath, and it is emitted with a "tst," double Tiger claws mostly use,"Wah," single use "Fu," which is more like "fffhh." When dropping a lager gwa choy, as in sup ji fun gum, we use 'Hmmmm." Crane uses,"Opp" sounds more like "huhp"
Longer moves use a longer breath, "haaahht" or "haaaaaiit".


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## Neijia (Mar 24, 2012)

Yes, there are different ways of breathing that raise and sink qi.  A reverse breath will cause a Ha sound.  Look at Fujian white crane, the sound vibrates inside the body.  Then it became okinawan crane, then Karate and they project the sound outward..why?  Because they are ignorant.  It was an incomplete transmission that became popular due to dumb luck and politics.  Its a crappy art, better to go to China and learn white crane.


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## oaktree (Mar 25, 2012)

Hi Neijia your posts come off egocentric and boasting. From telling everyone how you can beat 7 black belts and 3 untrained people to why everyone who trains in other arts suck but you.


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## K-man (Mar 25, 2012)

Neijia said:


> Yes, there are different ways of breathing that raise and sink qi.  A reverse breath will cause a Ha sound.  Look at Fujian white crane, the sound vibrates inside the body.  Then it became okinawan crane, then Karate and they project the sound outward..why?  Because they are ignorant.  It was an incomplete transmission that became popular due to dumb luck and politics.  Its a crappy art, better to go to China and learn white crane.


Care to elaborate?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 25, 2012)

K-man said:


> Care to elaborate?




You'll be sorry you asked that


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## Neijia (Mar 25, 2012)

Most of what is taught is garbage.  I am doing you a kindness by telling you.  As to the breathing and sounds in movement, this is something you can find for yourself if you go to a Daoist temple and ask someone.  I never said that anyone who trained in another art sucks.  Its not the art its the knowledge base and transmission.  I said in another post that branding was useless in fighting.  Its what you know.  I am spitting out knowledge that is hard to find.  I mean you can wonder all you want, but I'll tell you now that the secret of the kiai is in the yawn and the sigh.  You probably won't believe me, but if you follow nature and look at the sympathetic and parasympathetic response you will understand.


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## oaktree (Mar 25, 2012)

Hi Neijia how do you know you were not taught garbage too? You don't have to answer its rhetorical. 



> I never said that anyone who trained in another art sucks.


You said


> non spec forces TKD sucks.



So where does that put people who train in Non spec forces TKD at? Does this mean they as martial artist suck or don't suck? Chuck Norris doesn't train in Spec forces TKD does that mean he sucks?



> I am spitting out knowledge that is hard to find.


To me you have not said anything that sounds mind blowing and you aura reeks of how 


> After 2 years of traditional hardcore training in mantis I had beaten up 7 TKD black belts.  It was easy to do


And the many other posts of yours. See how you have a "Red Point" It means regardless of the spitting of knowledge and bluntness noone likes an ***-hole. 
 I am not calling you one just other people might come to that conclusion.



> but I'll tell you now that the secret of the kiai is in the yawn and the sigh


Thank you for your insightful information. One of my teacher have said similar things involving sneezing but there was more to it then  just that.


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## elder999 (Mar 25, 2012)

Neijia said:


> I'll tell you now that the secret of the kiai is in the yawn and the sigh. You probably won't believe me, but if you follow nature and look at the sympathetic and parasympathetic response you will understand.




Oh, I believe you; I just think you left out the peeing and the pooping. :lfao:


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## Neijia (Mar 25, 2012)

at the time I wrote that I hadn't said that another art sucked...then I thought about it and yeah...tkd does suck.  I changed my mind.

If CMA do not kiai or have anything like that can you explain the heng and ha of taiji?


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## oaktree (Mar 25, 2012)

Neijia said:


> at the time I wrote that I hadn't said that another art sucked...then I thought about it and yeah...tkd does suck.  I changed my mind.
> 
> If CMA do not kiai or have anything like that can you explain the heng and ha of taiji?



Are you refering to &#21756; and &#21704;?  Why do you call it Kiai that is a Japanese term why don't you use the Chinese hanzi &#27671;&#21512; or type Qihe?
  If you *read* my post on this thread you would see I used the Bagua classics to show how Bagua uses Sound:


> Song 9
> 
> Close the lips and mouth with the tongue touching the palate,
> 
> ...



If you are asking about Taijiquan the sounds are used more in rising the spirit or letting out energy during Fajin in Chen taijiquan we have it but I don't think it compares to what is used as in Japanese martial arts. I also don't think it is something to focus to much on and focusing on your intent would be better because were ever intent goes breath and Qi go. It is a question I will ask for clarification from my teacher and maybe Chen Bing when he comes here in 2 months.


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## K-man (Mar 25, 2012)

oaktree said:


> Are you refering to &#21756; and &#21704;?  Why do you call it Kiai that is a Japanese term why don't you use the Chinese hanzi &#27671;&#21512; or type Qihe?
> If you *read* my post on this thread you would see I used the Bagua classics to show how Bagua uses Sound:
> 
> 
> If you are asking about Taijiquan the sounds are used more in rising the spirit or letting out energy during Fajin in Chen taijiquan we have it but I don't think it compares to what is used as in Japanese martial arts. I also don't think it is something to focus to much on and focusing on your intent would be better because were ever intent goes breath and Qi go. It is a question I will ask for clarification from my teacher and maybe Chen Bing when he comes here in 2 months.


Because of people's understanding of 'chi' or 'ki', some people equate everything with breathing. There are other definitions or meanings of chi or ki. As you have pointed out spirit and energy are also involved intimately in the equation. That is not to say breathing does not play an important role but it is only part of the picture. In the small amount of bagua I have looked at there are sounds that are made as you strike and these correspond to the kiai of karate. Strange thing though. The kiai, from what I have seen, seems to be far more prevalent in Japanese karate that Okinawan. In Goju there is more emphasis on the breath than the yell. Proper breathing allows for a stronger strike.

So I do think that you can compare the two, as they are both used at the moment of impact in a way of focussing the energy or intent, in order to impart the maximum force into a strike.


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## mograph (Mar 25, 2012)

Personally, i think the fighter should use the technique that works best for that fighter, voice or no voice.


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## Grenadier (Mar 26, 2012)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

Art-bashing is strictly forbidden.  Some of you have already been warned, and any further incidents will be infracted accordingly.  

Ronald Shin
MT Assistant Administrator


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 26, 2012)

Neijia said:


> If CMA do not kiai or have anything like that can you explain the heng and ha of taiji?



yup, they are not kiai..... so endeth the lesson


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## Neijia (Mar 26, 2012)

Having a lot of posts doesn't mean you have any idea what you are talking about.  This is why there are so many secrets, Chinese masters don't want to throw pearls to pigs.  have a nice day.


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## The Last Legionary (Mar 26, 2012)

Neijia said:


> Having a lot of posts doesn't mean you have any idea what you are talking about.  This is why there are so many secrets, Chinese masters don't want to throw pearls to pigs.  have a nice day.



Oh, are you a Chinese Master then? Master Pu?


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## oaktree (Mar 26, 2012)

Hi Neijia
Ha and Heng are not really secrets in fact Jwing Ming Yang goes into it in detail in his book _Taijiquan theory of Dr. Jwing Ming Yang
_(I bought my copy for only $10 pretty good for a book of secrets) 

I personally don't get hung up with people who talk about masters and secrets, and alot of times people who speak about masters and secrets don't have any to begin with; they just want to make people think they do so people pay attention to them.

A shame you have limited access now Neijia your ideas may have some meaning if you articulated them in a well behaved manner on a public forum.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 26, 2012)

Neijia said:


> Having a lot of posts doesn't mean you have any idea what you are talking about.  This is why there are so many secrets, Chinese masters don't want to throw pearls to pigs.  have a nice day.



True.... but training MA for almost 40 years and CMA for 20 helps


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