# Leaping Crane??



## Fastmover (Jul 2, 2003)

Since this seems to be an interesting topic I thought Id throw this out for discussion on a new thread. 

I like Leaping Crane a lot but I do have some concerns about the first couple of moves. When attacked I think it would be very difficult for the average Joe to comprehend the type of attack and leap off to the side, kick, etc...  doing the technique. At the start of a confrontation considering the stress factor I think it might be asking a lot to pull this out of your bag of tricks. Along this line of thinking who can tell the difference between a straight or round house punch??? Makes a huge difference in the technique from what I found. 

I think the initial move of any technique needs to be simple and to the point...the KISS rule. This will keep down on any confussion from having to decide from the countless possibilities that exist. Once the attack has been defended then a couple of moves down the road if we see the oppotunity, work the leap to the back. (When I say leap, I was taught this was actually a step into a kick, in other words do not hit the complete balance point, it is not a one legged stance!)

I have no problem with complexity but there is a time and place for it. The beginning is not considering you are reacting and therefore playing catch up with the opponent.

Those of you who have pulled this move off during sparring Id expecially like your input.

OK let me have it!

John


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Since this seems to be an interesting topic I thought Id throw this out for discussion on a new thread.
> 
> I like Leaping Crane a lot but I do have some concerns about the first couple of moves. When attacked I think it would be very difficult for the average Joe to comprehend the type of attack and leap off to the side, kick, etc...  doing the technique. At the start of a confrontation considering the stress factor I think it might be asking a lot to pull this out of your bag of tricks. Along this line of thinking who can tell the difference between a straight or round house punch??? Makes a huge difference in the technique from what I found.
> ...



If you want to do it sparring you do it off a right shuffle up backnuckle.   I do Leaping Crane and Thundering Hammers consistently.    I alter the target to the groin on TH's and call it the Kenpo Touch.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Fastmover (Jul 2, 2003)

Oh come on Clyde your cheating!!! Your hitting the guy first which Im a big advocate of!!! However.....

Im talking about doing this technique in response to our opponents attack. So how can our reaction beat his action when we are responding with a complicated move? 

John


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 2, 2003)

Hate to tag team and all, but here's another way to see it: many of these techniques are actually adaptations of pretty much normal reactions...in the case of Leaping Crane, a duck and a flinch. (Now there's something I understand.)

Or to put it another way, think of the first two moves of LC like this: "I love me," (jump and hug yourself), and "I hate you," (foot comes down, back-knuckle the kidney after the weird sidekick to the back of the knee).

Some believe that raking shot to the rib-cage has no effect. I endured three years of, "hot hands," dummying for the infamous Eddie, and I know better.

Thanks.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 2, 2003)

Yes there is a one legged stance but its transitional. just like the cat stance is transitional (most of the time).  My god Ive turned.


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 2, 2003)

Yes...welll...not to worry (dull sound of hideous Lovecraftian chanting heard offstage)...we felt that you would come over....over....over...over....

Congratulations on your new evil, 
Spike n'Yogsothoth, from The Mouth of Madness


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 2, 2003)

Ok this might help me back into the light. I feel that "leaping Crane " is a more desireable technique than say "five swords" because it puts you on the outside where your fight would be more practical.


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 2, 2003)

Mr. Tatum's comment on this sort of thing: "you have to choose whether to jump into the fire, or away from the fire..."

We'll have yer soul yet, my pretty...


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## Fastmover (Jul 2, 2003)

I agree that the techniques should be designed around normal reactions which may be the reason I have some concerns with the initial move of Leaping Crane. It is not a common reaction to jump to one leg and "hug yourself" when punched. Even if you decide to do this and pull it off it is still very difficult to tell whether the opponent is throwing a straight or a round house punch. Jumping into the fire may be exactly what your doing if a round house punch is thrown.

TOD
Yes I was taught not to do a one legged stance because you are coming to a complete balance point which stalls your momentum going into the back knuckle. True a one legged stance is required to throw any kick, but it is very transitional. 

In addition the kick should not be to the back of the leg. We do this in training to be nice to our training partners because in reality the kick should be to the side of the knee breaking it. Which will turn the opponent with their back facing us setting up the rest of the technique.

I feel more comfortable on the outside as well, unfortunately my response may have not placed me there.

Again I dont have a problem with the technique overall but I do have a problem with being able to react successfully with the initial move. You are going to have to be really good at anticipating the attack to be successful.


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## c2kenpo (Jul 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *I agree that the techniques should be designed around normal reactions which may be the reason I have some concerns with the initial move of Leaping Crane. It is not a common reaction to jump to one leg and "hug yourself" when punched. Even if you decide to do this and pull it off it is still very difficult to tell whether the opponent is throwing a straight or a round house punch. Jumping into the fire may be exactly what your doing if a round house punch is thrown.
> 
> TOD
> ...



Funny we just worked this tech last night. One of the thoughts we have is definatly DO NOT "hop" and "luv me" we kept taking the attackers intelligence level up certian notches for counters and found that basicly in order to "hop and luv me" you need an idiot. 
Instead we looked at  it as a range issue between Leaping Crane and Thundering Hammers. Both have the exact same beggining but if you cannot excecute Thundering Hammers due to your targets being farther away then the flow went right into Leaping Crane. 
Once other difference was the raking middle knuckle strike, this we found was not very effective in really getting the body to react or stop the attackers motion. Instead envision your right hand behind you kind of protecting a small child and then the atttacker goes...just like Thundering Hammers again the hammerfist strike. If your hand was in a thrusting position instead of attempting to create this raking strike I just like executing a nice vertical punch to the floating rib. So far that has stopped everyone. Either way the motion has brought us back to the point of refrence for whipping on the backnuckle strike and the kick has been there keeping our opponent close instead of "Leaping" out of the way, Maybe we should rename it Thundering Cranes????

Anways...that was our take on the tech...and taking it to sparring level...the gauge of where the block / parry then strike was the difference for us. Just our take on the topic sorry to be long winded.

Journey well.

David Gunzburg


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Oh come on Clyde your cheating!!! Your hitting the guy first which Im a big advocate of!!! However.....
> 
> Im talking about doing this technique in response to our opponents attack. So how can our reaction beat his action when we are responding with a complicated move?
> ...



I am talking about doing it as a response.   There's physical speed and perceptional speed, you should have alot of both.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Ok this might help me back into the light. I feel that "leaping Crane " is a more desireable technique than say "five swords" because it puts you on the outside where your fight would be more practical. *



So what's wrong with being on the inside?  If you do Five Swords the way I do it, or how we teach it (you gotta remember I'm always  doing something a little different than most), it's a great technique.    Being on the backside isn't always desirable, especially in a multi-opponent situation.    I guess it all depends on whether  A)you're in the liquid or gas phase, B) your environment that would dictate doing the technique to the back or front side of your opponent, C) the nature of the attack.   Hmmm, guess that's Kenpo, constantly challenging the mind as well as the body, gotta love it.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 2, 2003)

1) I don't agree about the "balance point," in a one-legged stance. Sure, for starters, that's what's taught, that's what's learned. However...and I am patenting this analogy...consider the roller-coaster. When climibing a hill and appearing to pause, does it in fact stop? Nope; it's an effect of, "rounding off the corners." (Very much not my idea, this last.)

2) That rake does in fact work....in part because it can be read as a "minor," move. A punch would be transforming it into a major move...all well and good, but I suspect that's goling to lose a lot more momentum than a transitional crane. The rake also has an interesting relation to the other raking back-knuckle in the technique.

3) The extension also employs a, "one-legged," stance. Hm.

4) Yes, in the ideal form of the technique, kick the back of the leg. If you do the side kick properly, the attacker will rotate and bring the left kidney into position. If you start monkeying with the attacks, then, nothing says that you can't stick with the pattern and go for different targets....like, in some situations, the inside of the right knee with that first kick.

5) When you change the opening of LC...not in practice, which may very well be a good idea, but in the student's curriculum, you are likely to lose something else: an education in the range of possible ways to duck out of the way. Look at the relation among LC, Thundering Hammers, Circling the Horizon, Gathering Clouds, Protective Fans...all take you to the left and outside of a right punch in different ways, and clearly the next move is different. Lose a move or a technique, lose part of the spectrum...possible to dig it back out of the arrangement of the old Web of Knowledge, but I guess I think it's harder by far...

Thanks.


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## Fastmover (Jul 2, 2003)

1. Im not sure how you are suggesting to kick the inside of the opponents leg, but I was speaking of kicking the outside of his right leg.

2. Are you suggesting that this move in LC is in there for catagory completion?


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 2, 2003)

DING, DING, DING, DING you just won the plastic toy that cost less to make than you payed to play the game. As for your first question you are going to kick to the inside of one leg and the outside of another depending on which leg is forward because you are now beside the opponent.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *
> TOD
> Yes I was taught not to do a one legged stance because you are coming to a complete balance point which stalls your momentum going into the back knuckle. True a one legged stance is required to throw any kick, but it is very transitional.
> ...


well then I submit you were taught at a lower level and that has no bearing on the use of the technique at higher levels. those pauses and counter balances will disapear when you start rounding off corners and elongating circles. As for that round house punch comment, if one were to, say, bob and weave you may now complete leaping crane or any number of tech ideas on the outside.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *So what's wrong with being on the inside?  If you do Five Swords the way I do it, or how we teach it (you gotta remember I'm always  doing something a little different than most), it's a great technique.    Being on the backside isn't always desirable, especially in a multi-opponent situation.    I guess it all depends on whether  A)you're in the liquid or gas phase, B) your environment that would dictate doing the technique to the back or front side of your opponent, C) the nature of the attack.   Hmmm, guess that's Kenpo, constantly challenging the mind as well as the body, gotta love it.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...


Clyde, nothing is wrong with you being on the inside. I just hope you teach your lower belts which side is more practical for a beginner. If you at least taught that as a beginning idea that would be the basics, which is basicly where you want to be. As for you by all means "step into the fire" baby.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *. As for you by all means "step into the fire" baby. *



This kinda reminds me of how they extinguished all the oil well fires in Iraq, they blew them out with a big explosion, guess that would be me LOL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Fastmover (Jul 2, 2003)

Let me me clear something up. I was taught not to hit a complete balance point, this would be rounding the corner and as a consequence delete the dead space within the technique. I do have to laugh about the "lower level" comment??? It was a little fast on the gun to jump to such a conclusion, still nice shot.

From what I have found most people can not pick up the difference between a round house punch and a straight punch.  I agree with the bob and weave comment and thats what Im getting at, but then you changed the technique which will place you on the dark side with some. Plus due to your diligence of working the technique for years, you have already solidified the "leap and hug" into your memory. What you practice is what you will attempt on the street.

This all brings me to an interesting point. Why for the sack of catagory completion would you complete something to your mental and physical memory that might create some problems?When responding wouldnt it be logical to have something that is more universal and would take into account the diiferent possibilities; such as the round house punch and straight punch in this case?

A bob and weave has been suggested and I tend to agree because we have simplified our response. I think simplicity increases the likely hood of being succussful. Maybe we in Kenpo  try to get too smart and fancy with our movements for the sack of catagory completion???? Sure maybe you advanced black belts pull off this move but after how many years of training? 

Ok let me have it again....bring on the shots!

John


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Let me me clear something up. I was taught not to hit a complete balance point, this would be rounding the corner and as a consequence delete the dead space within the technique. I do have to laugh about the "lower level" comment??? It was a little fast on the gun to jump to such a conclusion, still nice shot.
> 
> From what I have found most people can not pick up the difference between a round house punch and a straight punch.  I agree with the bob and weave comment and thats what Im getting at, but then you changed the technique which will place you on the dark side with some. Plus due to your diligence of working the technique for years, you have already solidified the "leap and hug" into your memory. What you practice is what you will attempt on the street.
> ...


If using the equation formula puts me on the dark side then the dark side aint so bad. We don't teach our students to pause any longer than it takes to aim the kick but if you guys are teaching that lesson to where it becomes ingrained then modify your teaching method. Come to the dark side Luke.


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## Fastmover (Jul 2, 2003)

I think we are talking about two different things. Never said there was a pause nor did I ever say to teach a pause. If it makes you feel better that others are doing the techniuqes wrong then so be it. Seems to me the difference between our ideas in the technique seem to be at what angle the target; knee, is struck. Not whether to pause in the one legged stance.

You hit the nail right on the head about the equation formula. Using the equation formula one can solve many problems and maybe increase the systems functional aspects. After the process would it still be Kenpo. If we are using the principles Id say yes. 

I guess there are two ways to climb a mountain.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *I think we are talking about two different things. Never said there was a pause nor did I ever say to teach a pause. If it makes you feel better that others are doing the techniuqes wrong then so be it. Seems to me the difference between our ideas in the technique seem to be at what angle the target; knee, is struck. Not whether to pause in the one legged stance.
> 
> You hit the nail right on the head about the equation formula. Using the equation formula one can solve many problems and maybe increase the systems functional aspects. After the process would it still be Kenpo. If we are using the principles Id say yes.
> ...


you are right I reread you comment and was probably answering wrong. I do agree that working the Ideal phase may cause ingrained bad habbits. At our school are carefull not to let the students know what is ideal and what is not; this way they don't draw upon their memories when they should be problem solving.
This also happens to be the case with many other techs; still, there are techs we just don't teach at all based on our priorities.


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## purplekenposkunk (Jul 3, 2003)

Pardon me if I am just wasting people's time, but what is a roundhouse punch, and what is meant by the "liquid or gas phase"?


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by purplekenposkunk _
> *Pardon me if I am just wasting people's time, but what is a roundhouse punch, and what is meant by the "liquid or gas phase"? *



Cool SN Purple LOL.  

Roundhouse punch is one the will come in an arc on a horizontal line, more likely to your head but can be thrown at the body.   Boxers are notorious for them.

Solid Phase-like that of ice, solid and rigid, conforms to the shape of the container.   Most Korean and Japanese arts are Solid

Liquid Phase-flowing without stop like a river, conforms to the shape of the container but will seek it's own level.   Chinese arts tend to be much more fluid.

Gaseous Phase-filling all vioids but still within the shape of the container.   

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## roryneil (Jul 3, 2003)

This seems more suited to the Technical forum but...

I like the raking knuckle, and you can hurt someone if applied right. However, I find that it catches in gis sometimes, and would probably do so in street clothes as well. Does anyone else experience this?


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 3, 2003)

Yes. And, good point.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> 
> Solid Phase-like that of ice, solid and rigid, conforms to the shape of the container.   Most Korean and Japanese arts are Solid
> 
> ...


Says you.


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