# Hapkido doesn't use patterns?



## Acronym (Dec 23, 2020)

*Unlike the Korean martial arts of Taekwondo, Hapkido generally does not use forms & patterns as part of its training.*
*
Hapkido - Black Belt Wiki*

Then why do these forms exist? 




https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=47FngUp6etA


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 23, 2020)

To point out the painfully obvious... because some systems do use them.


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## Acronym (Dec 23, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> To point out the painfully obvious... because some systems do use them.



Were they created much later than in the TaeKwondo systems?


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## Acronym (Dec 23, 2020)

@Dirty Dog Do you know why the first form is so flashy? Are patterns intended for higher levels?


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 23, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Were they created much later than in the TaeKwondo systems?



I doubt it. Taekwondo started out mostly using Shotokan forms. Hapkido is purportedly derived from Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, so I would suppose they practiced the kata from that system.



Acronym said:


> @Dirty Dog Do you know why the first form is so flashy? Are patterns intended for higher levels?



No idea. You'd probably be better off asking that of someone who practices in that particular organization.


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## Acronym (Dec 23, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> I doubt it. Taekwondo started out mostly using Shotokan forms. Hapkido is purportedly derived from Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, so I would suppose they practiced the kata from that system.



Sure but I meant from the time TaeKwondo used TKD forms.. I ask since black belt wiki made the claim that they are not generally part of the system, yet these are on Youtube from several sources, so they can't be that obscure in the world of Hapkido.


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## Acronym (Dec 23, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> I doubt it. Taekwondo started out mostly using Shotokan forms. Hapkido is purportedly derived from Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, so I would suppose they practiced the kata from that system.
> .



Not if you google the art..  Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu is primarily a grappling art. The patterns are basically all striking and blocking.

There is obviously huge emphasis on joint manipulation in Hapkido but both forms and sparring is more Kung Fu and TKD-ish.

The forms look mostly northern Kung Fu to me. We have a lot of kung fu guys in here so they can verify or deny this.


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## Acronym (Dec 23, 2020)

My clip was from the World Hapkido Federation.... Biggest in the world, I think, and they do patterns...

And here's similiar ones






Black belt Wiki is good enough to use in the toilet.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 25, 2020)

Acronym said:


> The forms look mostly northern Kung Fu to me. We have a lot of kung fu guys in here so they can verify or deny this.



You are referring to the YouTube video lined in the opening post, yes?

If so, those do not look like any Chinese martial art that I have seen.  If I was shown those videos without any information, my guess would be that they are Korean.  That is what they look like to me.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> You are referring to the YouTube video lined in the opening post, yes?
> 
> If so, those do not look like any Chinese martial art that I have seen.  If I was shown those videos without any information, my guess would be that they are Korean.  That is what they look like to me.


 Not even close to Northern Kung Fu nor Southern for that matter.  For us that form would have been like taking a lazy break.  Northern Kung Fu would have been more lively with a lot of movement.  Southern kung fu would have been an emphasis on strong deep stances and power even when moving slowly.

The only thing "kung fu" about it is that the form doesn't repeat right side then left side techniques.  Which isn't saying much in terms of it being more one thing than another. But over all, definitely no hints of kung fu


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> The only thing "kung fu" about it is that the form doesn't repeat right side then left side techniques.  Which isn't saying much in terms of it being more one thing than another. But over all, definitely no hints of kung fu



Ok but some of the techniques in isolation such as the sprinting spin kick is distinctly Kung Fu, as is the circular emphasis of the art.


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> The only thing "kung fu" about it is that the form doesn't repeat right side then left side techniques.



The  first clip does


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## Flying Crane (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Ok but some of the techniques in isolation such as the sprinting spin kick is distinctly Kung Fu, as is the circular emphasis of the art.


I would say no, although perhaps you are thinking more of Modern Wushu which was developed by the Chinese government as an exhibition competition and cultural art form back in the 1950s.  That is the really flashy, acrobatic method.   It was based on the older kung fu methods, but was removed from actual useful combat.  It is not intended to be a viable form of combat.  It is intended to be more like a martial-flavored gymnastics floor routine.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I would say no, although perhaps you are thinking more of Modern Wushu which was developed by the Chinese government as an exhibition competition and cultural art form back in the 1950s.  That is the really flashy, acrobatic method.   It was based on the older kung fu methods, but was removed from actual useful combat.  It is not intended to be a viable form of combat.  It is intended to be more like a martial-flavored gymnastics floor routine.


I think the only real way to high light the difference is to show a northern kung fu form and a southern kung fu form and compare it to what he's seeing.


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I would say no, although perhaps you are thinking more of Modern Wushu which was developed by the Chinese government as an exhibition competition and cultural art form back in the 1950s.  That is the really flashy, acrobatic method.   It was based on the older kung fu methods, but was removed from actual useful combat.  It is not intended to be a viable form of combat.  It is intended to be more like a martial-flavored gymnastics floor routine.



There's more Kung Fu styles than atoms in the universe. I am referring to a particular branch that emphasises high kicks and spins


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think the only real way to high light the difference is to show a northern kung fu form and a southern kung fu form and compare it to what he's seeing.



Do that then. I don't know which are legit and which aren't. I do remember watching 90s Kung Fu tapes of patterns bought from China Town and it looked very similiar to that.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> There's more Kung Fu styles than atoms in the universe. I am referring to a particular branch that emphasises high kicks and spins


I would be curious to see what that is.  If you know the name of it, or can provide a video link, I would be interested in taking a look.

However, a jumping spin kick does not immediately say to me “this is kung fu”.  My first impression, without first knowing more about it, would be more likely “this is TKD.”

In your earlier post you also mentioned that you felt the forms on that YouTube link were “circular” and thereby possibly of Northern Chinese origin.  My impression was that they are not, at least not in any way that I would identify or associate with any Chinese methods.  Those forms in that video link have a very strong Korean flavor, in my opinion.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Do that then. I don't know which are legit and which aren't. I do remember watching 90s Kung Fu tapes of patterns bought from China Town and it looked very similiar to that.


Maybe you are thinking of Kenpo Karate?


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## Flying Crane (Dec 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Maybe you are thinking of Kenpo Karate?


As an ex-Kenpo guy, I would still say, nah, not likely...


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Maybe you are thinking of Kenpo Karate?



Nah he was dressed like a typical wushu performer. It might have very well been a wushu tape

Don't you think this guys tiger claw arm movements are very kung fu-ish? there's none of that in Karate katas.


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## Acronym (Dec 26, 2020)

About Hapkido – Hapkido Australia

*In Hapkido, as the student advances past the basic hand techniques, more emphasis is placed on small circular techniques and fast close quarter parrying which resemble the techniques of Kung Fu. Advanced weaponry techniques using the long pole Bo,  cane and the fan are similar to those of Kung Fu.*


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## Flying Crane (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Nah he was dressed like a typical wushu performer. It might have very well been a wushu tape
> 
> Don't you think this guys tiger claw arm movements are very kung fu-ish? there's none of that in Karate katas.


I do not, although In full disclosure it isn’t a technique I use much, it is not heavily emphasized in my system.  

Different people in different cultures do independently develop similar things, so not surprising if a Korean method would have a version of a tiger claw.  In Chinese martial arts for example, there are more than one system, independently developed, that go by the name White Crane.  Different development, different methods, not the same thing.  But both inspired by the same bird.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> About Hapkido – Hapkido Australia
> 
> *In Hapkido, as the student advances past the basic hand techniques, more emphasis is placed on small circular techniques and fast close quarter parrying which resemble the techniques of Kung Fu. Advanced weaponry techniques using the long pole Bo,  cane and the fan are similar to those of Kung Fu.*


It is possible that they were inspired to adopt some things from a kung fu method.  It is also possible they are simply making a superficial comparison.  I would need to know more, to make any evaluation.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Nah he was dressed like a typical wushu performer. It might have very well been a wushu tape
> 
> Don't you think this guys tiger claw arm movements are very kung fu-ish? there's none of that in Karate katas.


There are movements in the form that remind me of some of the things that exist in Jow Ga Kung Fu and other systems but it's more like the moves are different interpretations of the same idea.

For example: This reminds me of a technique found in Jow Ga Kung fu.  If I were to try to grab a punch in mid air, this is the this the technique that I would use.  The technique is crossing the hands while raising them.  In Jow Ga we do this technique in Bow stance.  It's something that I see often across fighting systems, so I'm not so quick to label it as "Kung Fu."  The blocks / strikes that he does before  are also seen across multiple systems.  





He does a jumping spinning back fist which is found in the system that I train. The technique is the jumping spinning back fist with the legs close to the ground,  In Jow Ga we leap in the aire and bring our legs up.  We also retreat with our spinning back fist. But in the video he doesn't.  So to me this looks like a different interpretation of what I do in Jow Ga Kung Fu. 

Another way to think of what I'm trying to explain is.  If someone told asked us to create a technique with a spinning back fist and a kick.  We would all produce techniques that have the 2 strikes, some would look similar but they would more than likely follow our core principle of our system.  MMA spinning backfist with a kick would have an MMA look to it,  Tai Chi would have a Tai Chi a spinning backfist with a kick based.  Some of us would have similar movements while others would be quite different.  But because we developed the technique independent of each other, no one can really claim that the technique is "kung fu" or "karate".  Sort of like the Jab, Uppercut, Cross punch.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

My thoughts on TKD punching is that many TKD schools don't focus on the hand striking techniques like they should.  I don't like TKD for this reason.  But I do like what I see here.










Looking at the second video, some of this stuff is found in Kung Fu and other systems as well, but this has a TKD engine, but when I do a similar technique it has a Kung Fu engine.  For example @ 1:11, this looks like the thrust punch that I do. The difference is the mechanics.  He does a reverse punch then steps through.  In kung fu we step through and punch at the same time.  At 1:13 he does the same technique again but this time he does it more like I would do it in Kung Fu.

@ 1:33 he does a technique that looks similar to what Is found in Tai chi wave hands like cloud.  It's hard to believe there's an elbow break in this this technique, but there is.

But my point is that, depending on the philosophy of the school I can see how some of the hand strikes may look like kung fu, but they really aren't.  It's just that they probably do more punching than other schools.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> About Hapkido – Hapkido Australia
> 
> *In Hapkido, as the student advances past the basic hand techniques, more emphasis is placed on small circular techniques and fast close quarter parrying which resemble the techniques of Kung Fu. Advanced weaponry techniques using the long pole Bo,  cane and the fan are similar to those of Kung Fu.*


I would be careful with stuff like this.  Sometimes stuff like this is marketing and not actually true of the system itself.  I'm not saying that this is the case with this school, but I've come across it many times.

There's nothing that I've seen in Hapkido that moves like Kung Fu.  To say that it resembles just means that it looks like it.  Sort of like how cars from 2 different company may look the similar on the outside with body shape and design, but they aren't the same.

It may be possible that the Hapkido teacher has trained more than one system and he uses things from other systems and integrates them into Hapkido,  but at that point they are creating a hybrid Hapkido system and probably should rename it it. Maybe Hapkido followed by the last name of the teacher who is integrating other stuff.

Some schools will try to say that they are "just like System A, System B, System C in an effort to attack students who have incomplete information about systems.  From a website marketing perspective.  This Hapkido comparison page would also get visitor searching fro BJJ, Kung Fu, Aikido, MMA schools.   https://hapkidoaustralia.com/about-hapkido/

I'm always cautious of schools who compare themselves in this manner by comparing similarities like that.  Two cars may look the similar on the outside but totally different when you get on the inside and when you drive.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> There's more Kung Fu styles than atoms in the universe. I am referring to a particular branch that emphasises high kicks and spins


What branch? Looking at the first form in the first post, I actually wouldn't think it belongs to any style. Certain styles I've been in have encouraged people to create a form for practice after 2-3 years..this looks like one of the first tries on that, more than anything else.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Nah he was dressed like a typical wushu performer. It might have very well been a wushu tape
> 
> Don't you think this guys tiger claw arm movements are very kung fu-ish? there's none of that in Karate katas.


I watched the first two minutes of that, and it looked like variations of different shaolin kempo karate combinations/forms.


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## Acronym (Dec 29, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> What branch? .



Northern Shaolin.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Northern Shaolin.


Northern Shaolin can actually refer to a number of methods, so that’s pretty broad.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> *Unlike the Korean martial arts of Taekwondo, Hapkido generally does not use forms & patterns as part of its training.
> 
> Hapkido - Black Belt Wiki*
> 
> ...


That goes back to my point about variation. I don’t think long forms are common in HKD - certainly nothing I know of that would have come from Daito-Ryu. But sometimes folks add something to the system for their own reason.


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## WaterGal (Dec 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> My clip was from the World Hapkido Federation.... Biggest in the world, I think, and they do patterns...



The 2 main Hapkido federations are the IHF (International HKD Federation), and KHF (Korea Hapkido Federation). The IHF does not use poomse/hyung, and I don't think the KHF does either. 

There are many other Hapkido organizations and unaffiliated HKD schools all over the world. They all have their own curriculum and program, which may include poomse/hyung, weapons work, BJJ-style grappling, or whatever the instructor likes.

Also, some Hapkido schools teach KKW TKD or some other martial arts curriculum alongside Hapkido in the same class, as sort of a combined program - I'm familiar with an IHF HKD school that also teaches the Taegeuk forms from KKW TKD, for example.


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## WaterGal (Dec 30, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I would be careful with stuff like this.  Sometimes stuff like this is marketing and not actually true of the system itself.  I'm not saying that this is the case with this school, but I've come across it many times.
> 
> There's nothing that I've seen in Hapkido that moves like Kung Fu.  To say that it resembles just means that it looks like it.  Sort of like how cars from 2 different company may look the similar on the outside with body shape and design, but they aren't the same.
> 
> ...



Yeah, that sounds like marketing copy to me. Very few people who aren't martial arts fans have ever heard of Hapkido, but everybody's heard of Kung Fu, BJJ, and MMA. So if you can say, it's kind of like these other more famous things, people might give it a try. Like how people will describe their business as, like, "Uber for dog grooming" or something. The potential customer knows what that other thing is, so the comparison helps them understand what the new thing is.


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## WaterGal (Dec 30, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> You are referring to the YouTube video lined in the opening post, yes?
> 
> If so, those do not look like any Chinese martial art that I have seen.  If I was shown those videos without any information, my guess would be that they are Korean.  That is what they look like to me.



Yeah, the first one feels like a Taekwondo form, though it's not one I'm familiar with.


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## oftheherd11 (Dec 31, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Northern Shaolin.



I am amazed by your knowledge of MA, especially Hapkido.  How long have you studied?  Are you belted?


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## oftheherd11 (Dec 31, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Not if you google the art..  Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu is primarily a grappling art. The patterns are basically all striking and blocking.
> 
> There is obviously huge emphasis on joint manipulation in Hapkido but both forms and sparring is more Kung Fu and TKD-ish.
> 
> The forms look mostly northern Kung Fu to me. We have a lot of kung fu guys in here so they can verify or deny this.



Well one must be careful when looking for information on the internet I guess.


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## bushido (Jan 19, 2022)

There are no forms in HKD.  I have seen a lot over the years that have claimed to be, but none that could be traced beyond that school.  Cash grab, just like belt stripes.

*"In Hapkido, as the student advances past the basic hand techniques, more emphasis is placed on small circular techniques"*
True... HKD is circular.  When you begin, the circle is large and exaggerated.  As you advance, the circle gets smaller, pivots get sharper, shoulder and hip circles look almost nonexistent, and everything happens in your center.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 19, 2022)

bushido said:


> There are no forms in HKD.  I have seen a lot over the years that have claimed to be, but none that could be traced beyond that school.  Cash grab, just like belt stripes.
> 
> *"In Hapkido, as the student advances past the basic hand techniques, more emphasis is placed on small circular techniques"*
> True... HKD is circular.  When you begin, the circle is large and exaggerated.  As you advance, the circle gets smaller, pivots get sharper, shoulder and hip circles look almost nonexistent, and everything happens in your center.


If the school trains HKD, and the forms are taught in that school, wouldn't that mean that they are forms in HKD? Maybe not in HKD's origins, or not consistent through HKD, but all martial arts evolve.


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## bushido (Jan 21, 2022)

I would not take it that way MTW... I would take it that perhaps their core is from another style and they carried and adapted their forms over into their HKD teachings, which is fine for them.  It could mean that they were taught HKD and added their own forms as a way to practice, also fine by me, as if my opinion would matter, lol.  Or they founded their own style of HKD and added forms.  But, by my experience over the years, I have never been shown a form by any 1st, 2nd or 3rd gen HKDist.


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## Ji Yuu (Feb 4, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> My thoughts on TKD punching is that many TKD schools don't focus on the hand striking techniques like they should.  I don't like TKD for this reason.  But I do like what I see here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This looks like the Tae Kwon Do I have always practiced. It is also resembles what I teach. Seeing these videos is quite refreshing.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 4, 2022)

Ji Yuu said:


> This looks like the Tae Kwon Do I have always practiced. It is also resembles what I teach. Seeing these videos is quite refreshing.


No words needed.


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## Ji Yuu (Feb 5, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> No words needed.


I've seen it all, now.


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## punisher73 (Feb 5, 2022)

These are the forms as developed by the late President & Founder of the World Hapkido Federation, MYUNG Kwang Sik Kwan Jang Nim. So, at least in the WHF we know how/when they were created and incorporated.






In some arts, they created forms later in the system's history because as it spread and more people became aware of martial arts they wanted forms/katas to compete in tournaments and also it was more material to learn to spread out the belts.  For example, Prof. Chow didn't have forms in his art and then later added them because that was what people wanted.   Ed Parker, his student, didn't originally teach forms but later added them because that was what people wanted/expected and even created later forms specifically for Kenpo students to compete with in tournaments (Long 4 for example).  It could be this reason, or the person wanted to string together certain techniques and patterns for a student to be able to practice them in a more fluid manner and easier to remember.


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