# Danger of bipeds....



## Blindside (Oct 5, 2007)

Given the previous thread of the various 4 legged, six legged, and 8 legged dangers in the outdoors, I just thought this would make us pay attention to those with just two.


*Witness to BWCAW shooting spree recounts harrowing night

John Myers Duluth News Tribune

Published Wednesday, September 19, 2007

The abusive, swearing, gun-firing men in the motorboat had been gone
nearly an hour. Emmerich Koller had almost fallen asleep in his tent at the
**Basswood**Lake** campsite.

&#8220;My son woke me up saying he heard another boat. I immediately thought
they were coming back for us,&#8217;&#8217; Koller said in a phone interview Tuesday
from his home in northern **Illinois**.

Here is the link to the rest of the article: https://secure.forumcomm.com/duluth/...7f9d1d322b805c

*
Follow up is here:
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_action=doc&p_docid=11C07BD7402F7470&p_docnum=3


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## Blotan Hunka (Oct 5, 2007)

WTF is wrong with people??


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## tellner (Oct 5, 2007)

Well....


People are crazy
People are stupid
Predators think of anyone else as sheep, not human beings
That's why I'm much more wary of the bald monkeys than the wolves and cougars.


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## thardey (Oct 5, 2007)

tellner said:


> Well....
> 
> People are crazy
> People are stupid
> ...



Yeah, animals are somewhat predictable.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 5, 2007)

This particular story hits close to home.  I live damn close to the BWCA and the lakes in question and I worked as a wilderness guide up there for years.  

There are some serious issues brewing in Ely.  Issues that span a generation...back to the time when the BWCA was created.  There are lots of hard feelings because of the way that the government formed the park.  Lots of people had emminent domain used against them and lost their livlihoods.  All of this has led to a strong resentment of anyone who enjoys the BWCA and supports it by minority of people in Ely.  These people have no respect for the law of the land or the authority of the federal government and they regularly break the laws by taking four wheelers, snowmobiles, and boats in the BWCA.  They poach and run amok rather often, just not this bad.  And the sad part is that a lot of time people who do this come off looking like hometown heros for sticking it to the man.  

It's all ******** in my opinion.  5 of the 6 weren't even alive when the BWCA formed and had to have this prejudice taught to them.  All of this whining, "Yeah but they are good kids, they are going to college, blah blah blah."  These *******s need to realize that they are biting the hand that feeds them.  If they drive away the tourists with their idiocy, Ely will become a ghost town.  My hope is that the town leaders grow a pair and start running people like this out of town.  30 years is too long to hold a grudge, especially when that grudge has the potential to put your neighbors out on the street.

These idiots are a bunch of good ole boy thugs who need a good ole fashioned *** whippin and some cooling time in jail.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 5, 2007)

A friend of mine edits the Ely Timberjay, the local newspaper for that region.

http://timberjay.com/current.php?article=3607

http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/articles/index.cfm?id=51387&section=News


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## Makalakumu (Oct 6, 2007)

Here's another article on this story...

https://secure.forumcomm.com/duluth...OKEN=27648717&jsessionid=8830eec7cee042b83f1d



> Talk to Ely residents about the six people charged with going on a rampage against campers in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness, and you&#8217;ll hear ringing condemnation &#8212; and sometimes a hint of sympathy. &#8220;It&#8217;s the two different aspects of the Ely mentality,&#8221; said Steve Piragis, co-owner of Piragis Northwoods Co., an Ely outfitter. &#8220;These kids got this from somewhere.&#8221; Many people in Ely were saddened and embarrassed when they heard that five adults and one juvenile were charged with terrorizing campers in the BWCAW on Aug. 7, firing multiple weapons into the night sky and calm waters. People from all walks of life in this small town on the edge of a popular wilderness have denounced the behavior, saying it doesn&#8217;t reflect the attitudes of most people who live here. But many acknowledged they weren&#8217;t all that surprised. An undercurrent of tension has flowed for years between those who ...


 
And here is the criminal complaint against Barney James Lakner age 37.

http://media.startribune.com/smedia/2007/09/18/14/lakner.source.prod_affiliate.2.pdf

Some campers told these *******s to shut the **** up and they discharged weapons in their general direction and shouted threats.  They said to different groups...

"I'm going to kill you, enox!"
"We're gonna **** your daughter in the ***!"
"Make us some s'mores or we'll kill ya."

They came to one site shot of guns and lit fireworks, destroyed a groups canoes, took off all their cloths and started skinny dipping all while a family with young kids hid off in the woods and they threatened to rape the mother of this terrified quartet.

In various parts of this country, I carry whenever I go into the woods.  In the BWCA, I carry when I go in really deep.  For quick fishing trips, I usually relied on other methods.  No more.  

I would have been one of those people telling them to shut the **** up and I can only imagine if it would have been me up there on that rock while these guys terrorized my campsite and threatened my family...

Those people are lucky none of those campers were armed.  They are damned lucky that no one returned fire from cover while they were out in their boats threatening to kill.  My question is this, would use of a firearm in self defense be warrented in this situation?

If you were armed and faced with this, would you return fire?


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## Blindside (Oct 6, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Those people are lucky none of those campers were armed. They are damned lucky that no one returned fire from cover while they were out in their boats threatening to kill. My question is this, would use of a firearm in self defense be warrented in this situation?
> 
> If you were armed and faced with this, would you return fire?


 
Lets see, armed men coming to land their boat at my camp, and have been yelling about killing me and raping my wife and daughter?

Yup, would have sent the wife and kids into the woods and set up behind cover on the beach to hit them while they were still in the boat and coming into land.

You'd have every self-defense/ use of deadly force justification in the book.

Lamont


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## Makalakumu (Oct 6, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Lets see, armed men coming to land their boat at my camp, and have been yelling about killing me and raping my wife and daughter?
> 
> Yup, would have sent the wife and kids into the woods and set up behind cover on the beach to hit them while they were still in the boat and coming into land.
> 
> ...


 
That's what I'm thinking.  I'm wondering if any LEOs wouldn't mind weighing in on this.


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## bydand (Oct 6, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> If you were armed and faced with this, would you return fire?



Without a second thought, darn right I would!  Threaten my family like that then take a few pot shots my way and you had damn well better have your life insurance paid-up.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 6, 2007)

bydand said:


> Without a second thought, darn right I would! Threaten my family like that then take a few pot shots my way and you had damn well better have your life insurance paid-up.


 
This whole situation is different for me because I live up here, I know exactly where all of this went down, and I had friends who were up in the BWCA that night.  I keep running scenarios in my head.  Well, what if they did this?  Well, what if they did that?  What if I shot one of them and they stormed my campsite in order to take revenge?  What if I didn't shoot at all and they came to kill us anyway?  

This really hits home.  

With that being said, I can honestly say that I would have shot back that night.  I would have tried to kill anyone who said those things and fired weapons at me if they tried to come near my campsite.  I believe that I would have the law on my side, but the fact that I would have to kill somebody...that really FEELS real.  

Does that make any sense, Scott?

Grossman's writing is really hitting home right now.  

There is a beautiful site on Pipestone Bay where a lot of this took place.  It overlooks a part of the lake and the only access is from a steep embankment.  A defender could have had their choice of targets from up there.  Especially with guys approaching in boats.

I'll say again, all of those people are lucky to be arrested and going to jail.  One person with a firearm could have ended that whole lot real quick.

I find myself wondering how this story would change if that would have happened...


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## Blotan Hunka (Oct 7, 2007)

I would say that a rifle would have been necessary to really defend youself in this situation. Multiple armed BG's, some with long guns. A pistol from the woods at 50 yds may scare them off, but a rifle, properly employed could easily knock them all down w/o them probably ever locating your position.


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## bydand (Oct 7, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> This whole situation is different for me because I live up here, I know exactly where all of this went down, and I had friends who were up in the BWCA that night.  I keep running scenarios in my head.  Well, what if they did this?  Well, what if they did that?  What if I shot one of them and they stormed my campsite in order to take revenge?  What if I didn't shoot at all and they came to kill us anyway?
> 
> This really hits home.
> 
> ...




Makes perfect sense.  I agree that it would have to be a direct immanent threat before I would feel I HAD to pull the trigger.  That said, I have leveled a firearm at somebody with intent before, and WOULD have pulled the trigger if they continued their actions.  Just the sight of the weapon, (in this instance) was enough of a deterrent to make them rethink their choice of target and hustle away.  Maybe a shot over their bow would have sent them scampering home and sobered them up real quick and the night would have ended there. With them thinking twice before this sounds like a good choice again.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 7, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> I would say that a rifle would have been necessary to really defend youself in this situation. Multiple armed BG's, some with long guns. A pistol from the woods at 50 yds may scare them off, but a rifle, properly employed could easily knock them all down w/o them probably ever locating your position.


 
That thought crossed my mind.  You don't have the accuracy with a pistol, but at least you might have scare them off and if they returned fire, you'd be under cover.  I doubt a bunch of drunk hooligans are going to try and storm a beach where someone is armed.  Either way, I think I'll be packing my pistol in whenever I go in now.


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## Blotan Hunka (Oct 7, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> That thought crossed my mind. You don't have the accuracy with a pistol, but at least you might have scare them off and if they returned fire, you'd be under cover. I doubt a bunch of drunk hooligans are going to try and storm a beach where someone is armed. Either way, I think I'll be packing my pistol in whenever I go in now.


 
Agreed. You rarely can go hiking with a rifle (unless you are out hunting or enlist  ). A pistol is far better than nothing.  You would need a good ammount of ammo in a situation like this though.


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## tellner (Oct 7, 2007)

It sounds like a perfectly clear deadly force situation. Was there danger of  "immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or serious bodily injury to yourself or another innocent third party"? Oh yes. Heck yes. 

A pistol would have been second best. A long arm would have been better. A reinforced platoon of Marines would have been even better, but you go with what you have. Even a handgun beats screaming for help. And if the defenders had been able to take down even one of the bad guys it would have changed the psychological landscape a lot.


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## Guardian (Nov 17, 2007)

I couldn't bring up the links, but got the gist of the story and problems from the conversations and I concur with everyone, the most they could get you on in this type of scenario would be whatever local ordinance or state law for the use of a firearm they might have there, but I'm sure with the amount of witnesses and testimonies, there would be no trouble at all being cleared and justifiable defense of yourself and families being the #1 explaination for that clearance.

Sure a rifle would have been the ideal choice, but a good handgun would have definately sent a message to the drunks and if a few of them bit the farm, oh well.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 7, 2008)

Two plead guilty to terrorizing Boundary Waters campers

I wonder how the rest of the charges will play out.  They are getting off easy.


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