# internal martial arts must open eyes on conditioning training



## KEY IN (Jun 13, 2016)

Onternal martial arts cant think to fight witout conditioning shins 
the nsenquence with a conditioned fighter can be serious damage 

wish some of you agree


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## Flying Crane (Jun 13, 2016)

What?


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## KEY IN (Jun 13, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> What?


 i mean that often i see in chinese martial arts , specially on the internal m.a people teacher speaking of fighting skills but they ,never speak about conditioning training 

how is possible to fight with a opponent that has shins or arms conditioned ?


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## Flying Crane (Jun 13, 2016)

KEY IN said:


> i mean that often i see in chinese martial arts , specially on the internal m.a people teacher speaking of fighting skills but they ,never speak about conditioning training
> 
> how is possible to fight with a opponent that has shins or arms conditioned ?


You don't need to turn your body into a weapon.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 13, 2016)

KEY IN said:


> i mean that often i see in chinese martial arts , specially on the internal m.a people teacher speaking of fighting skills but they ,never speak about conditioning training
> 
> how is possible to fight with a opponent that has shins or arms conditioned ?



Just because you don't see it does not mean it is not done


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 13, 2016)

KEY IN said:


> i mean that often i see in chinese martial arts , specially on the internal m.a people teacher speaking of fighting skills but they ,never speak about conditioning training
> 
> how is possible to fight with a opponent that has shins or arms conditioned ?


Your average person on the street does not have conditioned shins or arms.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 13, 2016)

If you learn "iron shirt" and I learn "iron palm", after 10 years, I still use my "iron palm" to beat on your "iron shirt".


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 13, 2016)

Theoretically if you are good enough at internal Martial Arts you don't need the conditioning that is required for external Martial Arts, as (from what I understand) it doesn't matter how strong your opponent is or how weak you are, if you offer no resistance and instead redirect your opponent's energy back at them, their strength is nullified.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 14, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Theoretically if you are good enough at internal Martial Arts you don't need the conditioning that is required for external Martial Arts, as (from what I understand) it doesn't matter how strong your opponent is or how weak you are, if you offer no resistance and instead redirect your opponent's energy back at them, their strength is nullified.



Your understanding is flawed and based on myth


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## Tez3 (Jun 14, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Your understanding is flawed and based on myth



Again.


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## mograph (Jun 14, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Your understanding is flawed and based on myth


Mything the point?


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 14, 2016)

The term "Internal marital arts" is being thrown around..

to Midnight-shadow and KEY IN...

What exactly do you consider to be "Internal Marital Arts"?


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## KEY IN (Jun 14, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> The term "Internal marital arts" is being thrown around..
> 
> to Midnight-shadow and KEY IN...
> 
> What exactly do you consider to be "Internal Marital Arts"?



Zhan zhuang with intent practice is internal M.A 
other is not internal m.a


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## mograph (Jun 14, 2016)

Uh oh.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 14, 2016)

KEY IN said:


> Zhan zhuang with intent practice is internal M.A
> other is not internal m.a



That's nice, but that did not really answer my question,. but then it could be That I was not unclear

I was looking for specific names of styles. I have seen external guys standing in Zhan Zhuang. Plus there is not a whole lot of difference between standing in Ma Bu and standing in Zhan Zhuang. And to be honest Ma Bu could be classified as Zhan Zhuang

Neijia and Waijia do not train the same, but that does not mean Neijia does not do any conditioning.

Which brings me right back to; Just because you do not see it does not mean it is not there.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 14, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> The term "Internal marital arts" is being thrown around..
> 
> to Midnight-shadow and KEY IN...
> 
> What exactly do you consider to be "Internal Marital Arts"?



Internal Martial Arts like Taijiquan focus on using the flow of energy to manipulate your opponent while offering little or no resistance to their strength (muscles can only contract against a resistant force - take away that resistance and no matter how strong they are, it doesn't matter). That is what I understand by it but I'm probably completely wrong as usual.


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## mograph (Jun 14, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Internal Martial Arts like Taijiquan focus on using the flow of energy to manipulate your opponent while offering little or no resistance to their strength (muscles can only contract against a resistant force - take away that resistance and no matter how strong they are, it doesn't matter). That is what I understand by it but I'm probably completely wrong as usual.


Do you train taijiquan?


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 14, 2016)

mograph said:


> Do you train taijiquan?



I started learning the Yang style long form but gave it up when I joined my current school.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 14, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Internal Martial Arts like Taijiquan focus on using the flow of energy to manipulate your opponent while offering little or no resistance to their strength (muscles can only contract against a resistant force - take away that resistance and no matter how strong they are, it doesn't matter). That is what I understand by it but I'm probably completely wrong as usual.



Taijiquan, Baguazhang, Xingyiquan are traditionally referred to as internal
Yiquan is also internal as is Liuhebafa

Taiji can use strength, usually to misdirect the other guy to make him do something that you can take advantage of. Taiji sticks, follows redirects and absorbs and it is trying to find the opponents center and the direction of their force so as to take advantage of it. But it also has kicking and punching, qinna and a bit of Shuaijiao too.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 14, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Taijiquan, Baguazhang, Xingyiquan are traditionally referred to as internal
> Yiquan is also internal as is Liuhebafa
> 
> Taiji can use strength, usually to misdirect the other guy to make him do something that you can take advantage of. Taiji sticks, follows redirects and absorbs and it is trying to find the opponents center and the direction of their force so as to take advantage of it. But it also has kicking and punching, qinna and a bit of Shuaijiao too.



So I wasn't too far wrong. To my mind there are 3 things you can do when someone throws an attack at you: Dodge it, block it and redirect it. If you intend to block the attack, you will require more body conditioning than if you plan on redirecting the attack. External styles (from what I understand) tend to block more, whereas Internal styles tend to redirect more. If this is the case then the external styles will require more body conditioning to be effective than the internal styles. Would that be a fair assessment?


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## Flying Crane (Jun 14, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> The term "Internal marital arts" is being thrown around..
> 
> to Midnight-shadow and KEY IN...
> 
> What exactly do you consider to be "Internal Marital Arts"?


That there TIE CHEEE stuff I keep hearing about.


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## Steve (Jun 14, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> The term "Internal marital arts" is being thrown around..
> 
> to Midnight-shadow and KEY IN...
> 
> What exactly do you consider to be "Internal Marital Arts"?


"internal marital arts" sounds a bit naughty, if you ask me.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 14, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> So I wasn't too far wrong. To my mind there are 3 things you can do when someone throws an attack at you: Dodge it, block it and redirect it. If you intend to block the attack, you will require more body conditioning than if you plan on redirecting the attack. External styles (from what I understand) tend to block more, whereas Internal styles tend to redirect more. If this is the case then the external styles will require more body conditioning to be effective than the internal styles. Would that be a fair assessment?



Yes and no, you can doge, block, redirect, attack or lock and in an art like Xingyiquan attack is defense and attack is attack.
Point is there is body conditioning in Internal styles but it is not necessarily the same as external styles, but then it is not necessarily different either.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 14, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> That there TIE CHEEE stuff I keep hearing about.



That's TIE CHEYE!!!!


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 14, 2016)

Steve said:


> "internal marital arts" sounds a bit naughty, if you ask me.



Wait until I get into the posture names


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 15, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yes and no, you can doge, block, redirect, attack or lock and in an art like Xingyiquan attack is defense and attack is attack.
> Point is there is body conditioning in Internal styles but it is not necessarily the same as external styles, but then it is not necessarily different either.



Correct me if I'm wrong but while there is body conditioning in both, they focus on different things. Internal styles rely more on speed and flexibility, whereas external styles rely more on strength and power. The OPs video implies that those practicing internal Martial Arts need to train in strength and power conditioning in order to stand up to an opponent, which to me just isn't true. As I stated previously, if you are skilled enough in redirecting an opponent's energy, it doesn't matter how much stronger they are than you, their extra strength means nothing.


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## Dong xiao hu (Jun 15, 2016)

In general all TCMA train the same methods punch, kick, seize control, throw the different styles emphasize each differently. The terms external and internal are less than 100 years old. The "internal" styles gained their reputation as being more or less softer or less conditioned than the "external" arts in the early part of the 20th century. The easy way to think of the training is they start on opposite ends to reach the same destination.

Sent from my Z797C using Tapatalk


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 15, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but while there is body conditioning in both, they focus on different things. Internal styles rely more on speed and flexibility, whereas external styles rely more on strength and power. The OPs video implies that those practicing internal Martial Arts need to train in strength and power conditioning in order to stand up to an opponent, which to me just isn't true. As I stated previously, if you are skilled enough in redirecting an opponent's energy, it doesn't matter how much stronger they are than you, their extra strength means nothing.



All I can tell you is my sifu does body weight exercises and has for many years. And if you look at Bagua training, traditionally, they will walk the circle with outstretched arms holding bricks. Stand in Santi shi for 20 minutes per side and you legs get stronger. Do your taiji form at the proper height you get stronger, do push ands and two person forms your legs and arms get stronger.

You are correct though, the approach is different. I guess one of the biggest differences is that IMA is not big on isolation exercises and EMA is.



Dong xiao hu said:


> In general all TCMA train the same methods punch, kick, seize control, throw the different styles emphasize each differently. The terms external and internal are less than 100 years old. The "internal" styles gained their reputation as being more or less softer or less conditioned than the "external" arts in the early part of the 20th century. The easy way to think of the training is they start on opposite ends to reach the same destination.
> 
> Sent from my Z797C using Tapatalk



Exactly, there is an old CMA saying that says internal goes to external and external goes to internal. That is of course, if they are trained correctly


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 15, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but while there is body conditioning in both, they focus on different things. Internal styles rely more on speed and flexibility, whereas external styles rely more on strength and power. The OPs video implies that those practicing internal Martial Arts need to train in strength and power conditioning in order to stand up to an opponent, which to me just isn't true. As I stated previously, if you are skilled enough in redirecting an opponent's energy, it doesn't matter how much stronger they are than you, their extra strength means nothing.


The OP doesn't understand what an internal martial art is and how it's properly trained.





Then you have that clip of him being blind folded and blocking a punch.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 15, 2016)




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## drop bear (Jun 15, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but while there is body conditioning in both, they focus on different things. Internal styles rely more on speed and flexibility, whereas external styles rely more on strength and power. The OPs video implies that those practicing internal Martial Arts need to train in strength and power conditioning in order to stand up to an opponent, which to me just isn't true. As I stated previously, if you are skilled enough in redirecting an opponent's energy, it doesn't matter how much stronger they are than you, their extra strength means nothing.



It always matters if they are stronger than you. You can't even really have good technique unless you have enough strength to hold your body together properly.

Where this strength technique stuff comes up is efficient use of strength. Where in general you are using as much of your body against as little of theirs.







This at its most basic. But what people overlook is the conditioning it takes to be able to use your body effectively.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 15, 2016)

drop bear said:


> It always matters if they are stronger than you. You can't even really have good technique unless you have enough strength to hold your body together properly.
> 
> Where this strength technique stuff comes up is efficient use of strength. Where in general you are using as much of your body against as little of theirs.
> 
> ...


I like that picture because that's how I defend against someone grabbing for my legs.   The proper lifting position is what a good grappling shoot will get.  I try to make grapplers look like the person the image that says "a very bad idea."

Internal arts are experts when it comes to doing the same thing. Many of their techniques makes their opponents move, lift, push, and pull in inefficient manners.  It's like the techniques are always putting the opponent in the worst possible position to do something. One of the things you'll see is that the opponent always seems to be trying to readjust.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 15, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> The proper lifting position is what a good grappling shoot while get.  I try to make grapplers look like the person the image that says "a very bad idea."


If your opponent's head is

- down, you pull down on his back neck.
- up, you push back on his forehead.

You just use different counter.


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## mograph (Jun 15, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> One of the things you'll see is that the opponent always seems to be trying to readjust.


... and that's when you uproot them!


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