# Plz tell me about To Shin Do Home Study Course



## KaranAuhi (Aug 24, 2008)

I just purchased it yesterday, and I wanted to know, was it a good investment? 

I don't have the time to join an actual school, so Im trying to learn what I can when I can.

Can you guys please tell me what you know about To Shin Do?

Does it actually help/work as self-defense? 
Is it Ninjitsu? I see a lot of the people on the forums here say no.

Thank you,

Karan


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## Cryozombie (Aug 24, 2008)

KaranAuhi said:


> Does it actually help/work as self-defense?
> Is it Ninjitsu? I see a lot of the people on the forums here say no.
> 
> Thank you,
> ...


 
Bear in mind everything that follows is only My PERSONAL OPINION.  

And this isn't about Toshindo.  Its about Home Study ******** in general.  I dont care if its Toshindo, Bujinkan, BJJ, Krav Maga, or any of that... 

You will NOT learn effective self defense from a DVD, VIDEOTAPE, or BOOK.  YOU NEED. NEED! NEED! An instructor to correct your mistakes, and multiple training partners to give you different timing and energy of attacks.  

Parroting what you see on a Video or described in books will only take you far enough to make think you know what you are doing so you can get your **** pushed in when you get into a real confrontation.  Period.


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## kcs (Aug 24, 2008)

i have to agree i had both and nothing beats one on one with an instructor.  you train and train and video tape your self and they say well do this or you need to do this and it is just ain't worth it.  thats why i got rid of the hsc's i had.


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## Monadnock (Aug 24, 2008)

KaranAuhi said:


> I just purchased it yesterday, and I wanted to know, was it a good investment?


Depends if you get any value for your money.


KaranAuhi said:


> I don't have the time to join an actual school, so Im trying to learn what I can when I can.


OK.


KaranAuhi said:


> Can you guys please tell me what you know about To Shin Do?


Basically it is Hayes' interpretation of what he learned from Hatsumi.


KaranAuhi said:


> Does it actually help/work as self-defense?


I think so.


KaranAuhi said:


> Is it Ninjitsu? I see a lot of the people on the forums here say no.


Not in the pure sense, that is, an original martial art from Japan. It's an American's version of Ninjutsu he learned in Japan. Maybe it is American Ninjutsu. Karate comes from Okinawa. There are Karate schools here in the US that are 1-off's from their Okinawan predecessors. We still call them Karate schools, but it's kind of a generalized term now.

Ninjutsu is a rather specialized study. Most of what you see may be based on Kata from a ninjutsu ryu, but that doesn't make it Ninjutsu, does it?

I tend to think of ninjutsu as "stealing in" or "espionage" and intelligence gathering. The hand to hand stuff just looks like Ju Jutsu to me. I guess if you put on some tabi and a black gi it becomes Ninjutsu? Mayeb you coudl help me there...


KaranAuhi said:


> Thank you,
> 
> Karan


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## SKB (Aug 24, 2008)

Almost any form of training is better then none. 

I believe To Shin Do is effective self defense.

You can learn a lot from the videos. I train at a dojo but also watch the videos. You should try to make a trip to one of the schools. Where are you located? There might be a school you could make it to. Like a weekend trip or somthing.

I'd be more then happy to try and answer some of your questions.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 25, 2008)

Video's, book's, etc. are best used as reference tools.   Good training under a qualified teacher though is the way to go to ensure that your fundamental skills are correct.


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## MJS (Aug 25, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Video's, book's, etc. are best used as reference tools. Good training under a qualified teacher though is the way to go to ensure that your fundamental skills are correct.


 
I agree 100% with this statement! :ultracool


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## Namu (Aug 31, 2008)

I have been looking at getting these DVD's for a long time...money issues.

We are learning Kong Shin Bup hapkido from a set of DVD's in my TKD school. However, we also train with the Grandmaster of the system periodically. It is amazing because the DVD's are very detailed and he explains things very well, and yet, there are subtleties that are missed.

I agree with others...learn as much as you can from the DVD's and then visit one of the schools for some tweaking of the details.

My understanding is that it is termed as 21st Century Ninjutsu. Let's face it...it's a different world from when Ninjutsu was first developed!


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## ToShinDoKa (Sep 27, 2008)

KaranAuhi said:


> I just purchased it yesterday, and I wanted to know, was it a good investment?
> 
> I don't have the time to join an actual school, so Im trying to learn what I can when I can.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Karan,

My name's Scott, and I'm a brown belt in the art of To-Shin Do Go-Shin Taijutsu.  I'm also a long distance student and have traversed the "musha shu-gyo" you invested in not too long ago.  As one who has experienced the training, I offer my humble opinion (meaning it holds as much value as you receive from it and no more). 

First and foremost I'd like to agree with Mr. VanCise on one aspect of his argument, there is nothing that can match instructor to student direct training.  But I disagree on another point, it "is" possible to learn Long Distance with the proper support system.  That's one of the major differences between To-Shin Do Long Distance programs and others I've searched for.  In truth, I have access to "master" instructors daily, who provide me with encouragement and training advice.  That's daily feedback, Karan.

Likewise, I get plenty of training opportunities with a one on one instructor.  The closest instructor to me provides my training club and I the opportunities to train with him and his school on our whim, and also provides fulfilling seminars for all who wish to attend to learn all the things that a video program may not have available.  "This", Karan, is the LD Program, not just the videos.  Those who haven't done it often misunderstand and believe it's,

"Here's your video, fork over the money and we'll send ya' a belt."  Let me be the first (as a Long Distance Student preparing to test for his Black Belt certification in front of the founder of the art, himself) to tell you that this is not the case.  You have invested in an excellent program, and you'll have many individuals willing to help you out along the way, individuals who are genuinely interested in your progress and walk with you on your journey towards "the mastery you seek." (Stephen K. Hayes).  Individuals like myself, Karan, who too have gone through the same problems, have had the same questions, and who received a library's worth of helpful answers and advice.

What about the ninja stuff?  Classical, authentic ninja tradition is taught at specific times as the students demand.  In example: I know the ninja aruki techniques of the Togakure ninja.  I've compared them to my "ordained" Bujinkan training, and haven't seen much difference in the quality in the classical delivery.  The only difference is that I don't just "know" them, but I understand them.  I know the mechanics behind them and why they were used during that time in history.  On top of that I know how I can use them now, and how they need to be adapted for my specific circumstances in this, our modern world, as the late Grandmaster Takamatsu stated when speaking of the essense of Ninpo.

Again, I agree with Mr. VanCise, videos alone can't help you, but the SKH Network is far broader than that, and the videos merely serve as your reference and textbook: experience, safe experimentation, and guidance from qualified To-Shin Do instructors is how you "learn" it.

I also agree with Monadnock, if you're looking for it's classical application of ninjutsu alone, or perhaps a good history lesson in the ways of the ninja of old, then mayhap To-Shin Do isn't the best thing for you.  But if you're interested in an effective (not implying anyone else's system isn't, mind everyone) method of self defense and life-strategy, which illuminate and make understandable the authentic ninja secrets of old, then you're looking for To-Shin Do, and you took the first step towards your goal.  :ultracool


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## arnisador (Sep 27, 2008)

What does To-Shin Do Go-Shin Taijutsu mean, as opposed to To-Shin Do itself?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 27, 2008)

ToShinDoKa said:


> Hi Karan,
> 
> My name's Scott, and I'm a brown belt in the art of To-Shin Do Go-Shin Taijutsu.  I'm also a long distance student and have traversed the "musha shu-gyo" you invested in not too long ago.  As one who has experienced the training, I offer my humble opinion (meaning it holds as much value as you receive from it and no more).
> 
> ...



Hey ToShinDoKa you and I are probably very close in agreement on all issues involved.  Meaning as I read your post it appears *you have a teacher* that you are training with albeit probably not as often as you would like *but you are learning from a teacher* that can correct your mistakes.  Then you are also supplementing your training with videos.  It would be to your advantage to train with a teacher weekely but at least you are training with one. 

If you train in *any* home study course with *no teacher* and *peer interaction* then I think you will simply not be successful. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Having said all the above I am not in favor of home study courses, online training, etc.  Truthfully I feel they in general are money makers and leave students practicing them in the dark.  Just my 02.  I am though in favor of videos, books, etc. used in conjunction to regular teacher/practitioner training.  Then I think they can be a great aid.


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## ToShinDoKa (Sep 27, 2008)

I appreciate you recognizing that point.  Honestly, I believe again that the LD Program is more than you make it out to be.  This interaction I receive "is" a part of the LD Program and not the other way around.  You were never meant to be secluded, just to have an understanding so when you do go see an instructor (or one comes to see you) those little adjustments that matter most are the only thing that needs to be fixed, along with passing a long some incite.

As I said, and as any To-Shin Do instructor will tell you, there's nothing that can replace (key word replace) one on one daily instruction, just like in college (I hate my internet courses *sigh*) but the this program is the next best thing.

On the issue of making money, you know what else makes money I've observed from supposed established one on one schools.  Time/Progression Hindrance.  What I mean is the instructors setting a strict time limit on when you can and can't test to progress to newer lessons.  We have a prescribed but not finite average time scale in To-Shin Do, and many take longer, but some, some take shorter time.  They progress quickly (natural ability, or previous MA experience, 12 years in my case) and so the monthly fee or yearly contracts some schools employ keep the money coming for the longest amount of time, while holding back to the students who are ready to progress and don't wish to waste their money on the redundency of the same lessons far after they've been internalized to a reasonable degree.  Again, I say it was never meant for you to train with no interaction with a qualified instructor, or at least it hasn't been for the passed 5 years I've been involved with the process.

Fact is, all schools need money to be truly successful.  I had to pay my Bujinkan dues when I was a student with them (and they were expensive, just for a membership IMPO) and the same goes when I studied Aikido and Shotokan.  I have come to find I've saved more money using An-Shu's program and received better training than what I've encountered in my state (and we have some great schools down here, with a wide variety of martial arts styles).  Just an observation.


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## ToShinDoKa (Sep 27, 2008)

arnisador said:


> What does To-Shin Do Go-Shin Taijutsu mean, as opposed to To-Shin Do itself?


 
Hi there,

Let me give you the official definition of To-Shin Do:





*TO* - *the sword*
At the core of our physical protection techniques and strategies are ageless combat methods born of the legendary phantom ninja warriors, rising from the lands of Mt. Togakure, cultivated in the wooded mountains and marshes of Iga in Japan.



*SHIN* - *the focused spirit of intention* 
From the depths of our program to every move made, we embrace the essence of the rigorous intention-channeling training of the shugenja of Mt. Yoshino - dedicated to the discovery and development of nine key qualities that characterize a fully actualized human being.



*DO* - *the path to mastery*
We walk with the spirit of all masters on a living journey that comes from the original Himalayan esoteric mikkyo vajrayana mind and spirit sciences of Mt. Hiei, cultivating our unlimited physical, mental, emotional and spiritual potential. 

_(The Above Definition is taken from, and can be found at DaytonQuestCenter.com)_

Go-Shin Taijutsu is the term that describes the Taijutsu Curriculum of our art, I believe.  Goshin as a word can refer to self defense in Japanese, but in this case I believe it deals specifically with the 5=Go Mind=Shin sets that are natural to every human, and teaches us how to coordinate our bodies with those mindsets so as to live effectively, strategically, and most importantly happily.  Whether every student studies To-Shin Do for those reasons is a personal matter with every student.

Chi, Sui, Ka, Fu, Ku (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Void).

Chi = Confidence, Steadfastness, Immovability, Leadership, and Dominance over adversary by the Mountains of Strength you possess.  Ever had to stand up for what you believed in? You exhibited a grain of what it is to know earth.

Sui = Strategic Withdrawal, Taking in the situation, Caution, Intelligence, Understanding, Analysis of Situation and Circumstances.  Ever had to get out of a bad situation until you've figured out how to make it a good one and then come back stronger than ever?  You exhibited a drop of what it is to know water.

Ka = Passion, Connectivity to situation and others, the here and now, preemptive action, Readiness, intercepting the missiles of the problems that comprise daily life in this complicated world before they launch.  Ever had to end an argument before it got started by being the bigger man/woman, resolving the problem, and even admitting you're wrong before the disagreement begins.  You exhibited a flicker of what it is to know fire.

Fu = Evasive effortlessness, obedience to a noble cause, fitting into the problem and then controlling it from within without a struggle, allowing missiles to harmlessly pass by.  Ever had to put your pride to the side and work as a small part to a bigger cause for the sake of that cause?  You felt a small breeze of what it is to know wind.

Ku = Creative Potential.  Understanding of self and others and environment and strategically living with them, promoting harmony between them all.  Go Shin...
​


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## jks9199 (Sep 27, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey ToShinDoKa you and I are probably very close in agreement on all issues involved. Meaning as I read your post it appears *you have a teacher* that you are training with albeit probably not as often as you would like *but you are learning from a teacher* that can correct your mistakes. Then you are also supplementing your training with videos. It would be to your advantage to train with a teacher weekely but at least you are training with one.


 


ToShinDoKa said:


> I appreciate you recognizing that point. Honestly, I believe again that the LD Program is more than you make it out to be. This interaction I receive "is" a part of the LD Program and not the other way around. You were never meant to be secluded, just to have an understanding so when you do go see an instructor (or one comes to see you) those little adjustments that matter most are the only thing that needs to be fixed, along with passing a long some incite.
> 
> As I said, and as any To-Shin Do instructor will tell you, there's nothing that can replace (key word replace) one on one daily instruction, just like in college (I hate my internet courses *sigh*) but the this program is the next best thing.


 
But... How many "long distance students" are actually doing more than incidental or occasional visits with an instructor?  I suspect that many attend one or two annual training camps and that's about it.  (Honestly, I suspect that many buy the videos, practice for a couple of months, and set them aside for "when they get around to it" just like many other items for home study or exercise..."

I also have to take exception to your earlier comment about daily feedback via the web.  Brian and I bounce an idea off each other about one thing or another pretty much every day, as do many others.  That doesn't make me an IRT practitioner, or Brian one of my Bando students.  We can't give each other the small and precise correction and guidance that training requires over the web.


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## Ninjamom (Sep 27, 2008)

Did anyone else notice the surge of 'one post wonders' on the forum, asking others' opinions about some great DVD/Video/Book/Equipment they just purchased??

Could it be that this wasn't a genuine request for information, but a stealth-mode commercial for whatever lame DVD/Video/Book/Equipment they just purchased??

What if from now on we all agreed to respond to any similar future request with the simple response that ANY DVD/Video/Book/Equipment is a total waste of time and money without having FIRST had a qualified instructor?

Just asking.


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## Senjojutsu (Sep 28, 2008)

Ninjamom said:


> Did anyone else notice the surge of 'one post wonders' on the forum, asking others' opinions about some great DVD/Video/Book/Equipment they just purchased??
> 
> Could it be that this wasn't a genuine request for information, but a stealth-mode commercial for whatever lame DVD/Video/Book/Equipment they just purchased??
> 
> ...


Excellent point! Then again... 

"...Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away"
ARTIST: Buffalo Springfield, TITLE: For What It's Worth


The OP could always be a case of buyer's remorse.

...and if you watch TV infomercials at 04:00 AM I think at least 20% are for pieces of exercise equipment or routines these days. So that's a lot of buyer's remorse happening.

The correct opinion basically has been posted, videos are good reference tools - not replacements for instructors, partners and training time.


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## SKB (Sep 28, 2008)

In the times we live in I think any training, even if it is a video, is better then no training. I use the videos and also train at a dojo. If they were a waste of time I would of stopped buying them a long time ago!!! 

With that said, you still should train with someone. There are things which can only be transmitted by exsample and from someone seeing what it is you are doing. The videos are so much better then when I used to read the books and try to figure out things!!!!!


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## ToShinDoKa (Sep 30, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> But... How many "long distance students" are actually doing more than incidental or occasional visits with an instructor? I suspect that many attend one or two annual training camps and that's about it. (Honestly, I suspect that many buy the videos, practice for a couple of months, and set them aside for "when they get around to it" just like many other items for home study or exercise..."
> 
> I also have to take exception to your earlier comment about daily feedback via the web. Brian and I bounce an idea off each other about one thing or another pretty much every day, as do many others. That doesn't make me an IRT practitioner, or Brian one of my Bando students. We can't give each other the small and precise correction and guidance that training requires over the web.


 
Well if it helps you gain a little perspective as to the network, not too long ago we had one individual (and LDS) ask how many students trained through video alone and tested.  None of the LDSs could answer with a me because many of them have had the opportunity to train with a recognized To-Shin Do training club in their area.  These clubs are overseen by senior belts and To-Shin Do instructors in the region and/or Hombu itself.

Instruction is not given over the internet, training tips are.  You can give me a drill and describe it and I can benefit from it any day of the week.  Weight lifters depend on magazines to find new work out plans.  Successful dieters may read articles about healthy food alternatives and take action to change their eating habits for a healthier lifestyle...successful dieters.

The thing is, the videos are not all the program consists of.  I go to fewer "festivals" and "seminars" than most other LDSs I know.  For instance the biggest, our yearly one, I won't be able to attend.  But on the other hand, in a week or two I'm going to the closest quest center for private lessons and to perform a demo.  This is a commonplace among LDS (Long Distance Students, if anyone was wondering what LDS meant).  

In the end I can't speak for any other LDP but this one, and I am very satisfied with it.  More satisfied than I've been (as I state earlier) with the teachers around me.  I suppose it's because To-Shin Do is an art that can only be mastered by "unleashing YOUR potential" and that involves some serious "self" study. 

I recall my sensei, Mr. Broom telling our class about how he had a friend who said they punch "this" way in their art, and he told me he wished learning To-Shin Do were as simple as that.  That is, when you ask a question like, "is this the right way to turn the hand in a punch, or is this?" and you receive the answer, "Yes."  ???

But which way is right.  Well, they both "can" be right, but the factors have to be examined to decide which one is more effective.  Physicality of opponent and defender, environment, etc. but show me an instructor who can address the seemingly countless variations in an 1 hour or 2 class and you'll have shown me a martial god, some mythical instructor like Sojobo, King of the Tengu, legendary Sword Instructor of Yoshitsune. :lol:

"Where are you going with this, Scott?"  

What I mean to say is we have enough training with an instructor to learn the basic technique and idea behind it.  An instructor can give you a starting point and correct you along the way, but you must have time to experiment (safely, and for To-Shin Do LDSs training safely is priority number uno!) within your respective training group.  Training on your own time is what makes the greats stand out from the "I attend class 2 times a week" guys.  

LDS is "not" under any circumstances the best way to train.  I, one who before To-Shin Do practically "lived" in my dojo, will attest to the fact that I wish I lived closer to one so I can frequent it every time the doors unlock, but that's not always an option.  The art of To-Shin Do (in my opinion) is one of the best self protection arts in existence, and my incite into self defense and technical savy always amazes my MA buddies, who don't believe me when I say I train long distance.

I would make the choice of studying it any way I can because of it's effectiveness.  The LDS vids and Support Network has given me one of the most fulfilling Martial Arts Learning Experiences ever, and that's my experience with it.

I can only argue that, that is, my experience and the experiences shared with me by LDS friends world wide.


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## TheStudent (Nov 29, 2008)

I'd like to add a bit about the LDS concept.

First of all, most people who disregard them have never actually used them. Most I've talked to have either read the ad and decied then and there, or at most ordered the course, watched part of the first DVD/video and decided it couldn't work.

I design computer training for aliving. NOT martial arts. I design safety, computer systems and heavy machinery process training. So I look at iot a bit differently. Also, none of my training courses EVER rely strictly on Video.

First of all, know your audience. LDS martial arts courses, by their nature, are most effective when the students have previous experience of some sort. The previous knowledge gives a basis to judge and conmprehend the illustrations and examples in the video. Having tried to learn balance while kicking in one style will lend to a much more effective ability to find balance when learning a kick in another art. Knowing one style's front stance makes learning a different one much easier than if you have never stood with more weight on a leading foot at all.

Secondly, the student should be willing to learn from the video. In other words, you don't watch it start to finish and expect to retain all of it. In reality, the video should have stop points that direct the student to pause and rewind the video and practice until they feel they have a basic understanding of how to execute the stance, kick, kata, etc. and then move to the next section. In the ideal, I would design each technique as a separate video that jumps to the next automatically, but each chapter mark is the start of each technique, with the chapter menu the first screen you see, and the "play full movie" an option.

Thirdly, LDS works best if it is used as a learning AIDE, with feedback and grading as frequently as possible. In other words, when you think you have something, submit a video of it for feedback and correction. Don't submit a video of every single item and expect the level of feedback you get in a dojo. submit a specific piece (2 or three techniques at most) and expect feedback comparable to what you would hear in person. Then fix accordingly. video again and get more feedback.When the feedback is mostly positiove with just a bit of "work on XXX a bit to really master this" then move to the next piece.

So, the three pieces to make LDS work effectively are 1) Have a minimum standard to start the class (if you're expecting learning to occur). 2) Expect each technique to be viewed and practiced singly, not a group of techniques to be done all at once. and 3) effort and feedback need to be a cycle, not a one time occurance. Oh, and the 4th thing should be consistent repetition of the important parts, with a clearly defined summary at the end.

With those in place, an LDS program can be successful, at least to a large degree. But skill in application requires an opponent to learn the muscle effort, weight impact, etc. to make anything truly usable. But most LDS students have or find a practice buddy or group.

I personally am starting an LDS because what I want is not available in my town. But I know my skill and growth rest 110% on my shoulders. And I don't believe in testing unless I personally feel I've mastered the level requirements. My goal is mastery and growth, not a colored belt around my waist. If the course doesn't include the pieces I need to make it effective, I'll just add it myself. I have the pause, rewind and slow motion buttons on my remote. I have the ability to find and purchase additional videos and books fromj other sources. I have the ability top video tape and upload the videos to ask for feedback and critiques. It is personal determination and effort that makes for success in any endevour.

I'll get off my soap box now.

Mike


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## Senjojutsu (Nov 30, 2008)

TheStudent said:


> ...First of all, know your audience. LDS martial arts courses, by their nature, are most effective when the students have previous experience of some sort. The previous knowledge gives a basis to judge and conmprehend the illustrations and examples in the video. Having tried to learn balance while kicking in one style will lend to a much more effective ability to find balance when learning a kick in another art. Knowing one style's front stance makes learning a different one much easier than if you have never stood with more weight on a leading foot at all.


Yes!



TheStudent said:


> ...So, the three pieces to make LDS work effectively are 1) Have a minimum standard to start the class (if you're expecting learning to occur). 2) Expect each technique to be viewed and practiced singly, not a group of techniques to be done all at once. and 3) effort and feedback need to be a cycle, not a one time occurance. Oh, and the 4th thing should be consistent repetition of the important parts...


Yes Again!!

Some very good points Mike.

Unfortunately, and this is a generalization, so many of these LDS inquiry posts up on message boards... well, you just know they are written by fifteen-or-sixteen years olds.

...and often their LDS questions involve weapons training.

So we try to warn them, maybe they will listen to us - as opposed to their parents.


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## Drac (Nov 30, 2008)

Ninjamom said:


> Did anyone else notice the surge of 'one post wonders' on the forum, asking others' opinions about some great DVD/Video/Book/Equipment they just purchased??


 
Yep...



Ninjamom said:


> Could it be that this wasn't a genuine request for information, but a stealth-mode commercial for whatever lame DVD/Video/Book/Equipment they just purchased??


 
Sort of, but they didnt actually name what system they purchased



Ninjamom said:


> What if from now on we all agreed to respond to any similar future request with the simple response that ANY DVD/Video/Book/Equipment is a total waste of time and money without having FIRST had a qualified instructor?


 
Works for me...


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Nov 30, 2008)

In the days before these home study course people would travel to the art they wanted to study. I don't drive but I still find a way to my lesson in another county. I walk an 1 hour to my lesson. Before that I had to travel to the next state for a mere 4 hours of training. Before that I traveled to Japan to study. 

So I hear the excuse of those who study by Home study course of no teacher in there location I can only think of those who put in the effort to go train with a person.

A video or book is only as useful as the person who understands the material being presented. Meaning if you have no working knowlege of the art the body movement will be hard to adjust and correct.

I have said it before that because the videos can only show a certain amount the actual angle,weight,alignment,foot position may be incorrect.
Though it looks like it the posture may be incorrect. 
I have plenty of DVD's even of the same art I study for me they only act as a refresher of material. But I guess in this day and age this was bond to happen I wish you the best of luck in your training.


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## KevinCasey (Nov 30, 2008)

I've seen a couple of models for success in the To-Shin Do home study course.

One is to train diligently, but travel to a Quest Center every two to four months for feedback.  I have a couple of very successful skilled guys right now who drive 500 miles to see me on that kind of schedule.  I give them a ton of stuff to work on - way more than they can implement in their brief visit - and they take lots of notes and use the videos to reference the details and jog their memory.

The other successful model I have seen is to post YouTube videos of specific techniques periodically and get feedback from the To-Shin Do community.  Obviously, a bit of bravery is required, since you might get negative comments from the Internet at large - but if you can filter past that, many of the teachers and students in To-Shin Do are happy to give pointers.

Being of the SKHQuest forums is also very helpful to find loads of To-Shin Do folks.  I don't see nearly as many elsewhere.


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## RRepster (May 14, 2009)

"Having said all the above I am not in favor of home study courses, online training, etc. Truthfully I feel they in general are money makers and leave students practicing them in the dark."

That's funny. I hear my sifu Ken Gullette (www.internalfightingarts.com) pretty clearly on the telephone during our class conference calls and we all see him pretty clearly when he reviews our videos we make and critiques us. There's also plenty of chances to spend time with him and his local class whenever we want to visit which many of us do a few times a year for comprehensive one on one training.

I think you fail to understand the "program" or "course" part of "home study program." As others said its not just buy a dvd or d/load a lesson then get the belt in six weeks. Also we don't all live in a major metropolitan area where there's a dojo on every other street to choose from. So we utilize what technology has made available to us. Fortunately we have more than rice paper scrolls today like the legendary masters of old used to use to pass on knowledge.

From what I have seen online Hayes' Toshindo program is very comprehensive and you can get out of it whatever you put in and there is more to his program than just some videos. If that's all you want, fine, if you want more there is more. I think it's pretty pricy but I think you can order one dvd to review at least to decide for yourself whether its worth the whole program.


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## RRepster (May 14, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> In the days before these home study course people would travel to the art they wanted to study. I don't drive but I still find a way to my lesson in another county. I walk an 1 hour to my lesson. Before that I had to travel to the next state for a mere 4 hours of training. Before that I traveled to Japan to study.
> 
> So I hear the excuse of those who study by Home study course of no teacher in there location I can only think of those who put in the effort to go train with a person.



You are assuming that home study course people don't travel as well. People in my internal arts school both submit videos for evaluations and occasionally meet in person with Sifu. The dvd's and online vids. Merely give us what to practice on. If I wanted to study Toshindo I'd pick up the HSP in a heartbeat then I'd occassionally (likely 1 or 2x a month) travel to a Toshindo school I know of that is a couple hours away to supplement that. My Kung Fu sifu is a 10 hour drive away yet I'm planning on a weekend trip to do see him. You get out of anything what you put into it, and that goes for HSP *and* traditional dojo's/dojangs/kwans.



> A video or book is only as useful as the person who understands the material being presented. Meaning if you have no working knowlege of the art the body movement will be hard to adjust and correct.


hard but not impossible, it's hard in a traditional classroom too. I've been learning Kung Fu chen style internal arts that way which I'm sure you know is radically different than the TKD I'm used to. 



> I have said it before that because the videos can only show a certain amount the actual angle,weight,alignment,foot position may be incorrect.


questions on your forum, telephone, and video evals can answer that. Case in point: I noticed on my Hsing-I 1. dvd the other day that some students had their feet positioned differently in the san-ti stance than others. So I (gasp) asked on the online school forum what was correct. The answer was as I suspected - they all had it right, little nuiances are not important as long as they are grounded and both feet foreward like I thought one clip looked like the feet were would unbalance you. It took all of 5 minutes to get my answer no joke. I have no doubt that Hayes' Toshindo instructors on their home study course forums can answer their questions as well. But if a "course" has no evaluation methods or contact with instructors then it's nothing more than a referance video or book and likely you can get a far cheaper solution at ebay or Amazon.


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## RRepster (May 14, 2009)

KevinCasey said:


> I've seen a couple of models for success in the To-Shin Do home study course.
> 
> One is to train diligently, but travel to a Quest Center every two to four months for feedback.  I have a couple of very successful skilled guys right now who drive 500 miles to see me on that kind of schedule.  I give them a ton of stuff to work on - way more than they can implement in their brief visit - and they take lots of notes and use the videos to reference the details and jog their memory.
> 
> ...



Bingo. Exactly Kevin. Bottom line, a person gets out of anything what they put into them. DVD's and online video capability have merely just added another way to practice at home which we are supposed to do even when a member of any dojo/jang/kwan anyway.


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## GBlues (May 15, 2009)

The To-Shindo home study course is good. IT's a little confusing at first, because you see Hayes doing like classroom stuff on the dvd. Working with other students. THen at the end, he goes through and explains how to do those techniques for the test. It's not a bad dvd set. I have the Mountains of Strength dvd, and it's good. You can learn some very useful things from it. You have to pay attention though. Because the beginning of the dvd it's literally like watching a class or private lesson. So pay attention, there are other things besides techniques to get out of those beginning segments of the dvd. Different things to be concerned with when doing those techniques. I found them helpful. Hope that helped.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 15, 2009)

> You are assuming that home study course people don't travel as well. People in my internal arts school both submit videos for evaluations and occasionally meet in person with Sifu. The dvd's and online vids. Merely give us what to practice on. If I wanted to study Toshindo I'd pick up the HSP in a heartbeat then I'd occassionally (likely 1 or 2x a month) travel to a Toshindo school I know of that is a couple hours away to supplement that. My Kung Fu sifu is a 10 hour drive away yet I'm planning on a weekend trip to do see him. You get out of anything what you put into it, and that goes for HSP *and* traditional dojo's/dojangs/kwans.


 Majority of those who train in Home study courses do so without visiting a teacher for the reason of 1.Teacher is to far 2.No money for class 3.whatever reason. Learning internal arts by video is even more harder because of the details involved. I practice with my teacher internal arts and the amount of detail like silk reeling you really can't grasp from a video. Noone is dismissing videos as a supplement with a teacher it is when the video replaces the teacher that is problematic.


> hard but not impossible, it's hard in a traditional classroom too. I've been learning Kung Fu chen style internal arts that way which I'm sure you know is radically different than the TKD I'm used to.


I am sure you know practicing Chen style that what you see in a video does not mean it is to be done like the video meaning watching Chen Xiaowang he sometimes does thing in a video that looks wrong compared to what he does in person(so I am told by one of his students) Your foot could be 3 inches off and it makes the difference between a solid stance and off balance a teacher can correct it. In internal arts even more so because even if you are in proper stance you may not be rooting and sinking your shoulders may be high a teacher needs to adjust that.



> questions on your forum, telephone, and video evals can answer that. Case in point: I noticed on my Hsing-I 1. dvd the other day that some students had their feet positioned differently in the san-ti stance than others. So I (gasp) asked on the online school forum what was correct. The answer was as I suspected - they all had it right, little nuiances are not important as long as they are grounded and both feet foreward like I thought one clip looked like the feet were would unbalance you. It took all of 5 minutes to get my answer no joke. I have no doubt that Hayes' Toshindo instructors on their home study course forums can answer their questions as well. But if a "course" has no evaluation methods or contact with instructors then it's nothing more than a referance video or book and likely you can get a far cheaper solution at ebay or Amazon.


  Its kinda of hard to judge from a video just look at the thread on the cop punching someones neck many say he is hitting the neck others say shoulder area. In Xingyi santi shi I was taught the back foot can go in slightly or not depends on the teacher and linerage. I really do not know how the students placed the feet that yo saw it may have been correct it may have been wrong and people thought it was correct the point is the teacher is the one who is suppose to explain it to you. You are welcome to start a thread in the internal arts section on learning neijia arts by video correspondence.


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## RRepster (May 15, 2009)

Essentially you backed up everything I said jadecloud, I think perhaps you skimmed my post too quick though because I noted that internal arts especially are hard to do by video and demand feedback but again, not impossible. Where do you get the idea that the majority of people who take home study courses don't have a teacher? I've yet to find a home study course which does NOT have input by and to the teacher. And that is especially true of this Toshindo course that was asked.

Just buying videos is not the same as joining a study course just like buying a History book at Barnes & Noble is not the same as taking an online History class.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 16, 2009)

> though because I noted that internal arts especially are hard to do by video and demand feedback but again, not impossible.


 
How about near impossible. You are welcome to start a thread in the internal arts section and have others tell you the same thing.



> Where do you get the idea that the majority of people who take home study courses don't have a teacher?


 From the majority of people who come on forums asking about home study courses.



> I've yet to find a home study course which does NOT have input by and to the teacher.


 Having a teacher fixing your posture,being able to show you why you do not do things or why you do things big difference. On a video you can not see the small detail things some of the things especially in internal arts requires feeling which you need a teacher to phyically be there to adjust.

I understand some people do not have teachers in their area and have to make by with what they have. The forums do have advice for people in that situation some say use videos as SUPPLEMENTS to you training while seeing a teacher at least once a month. Others might say train in a similar art. 

Your teacher did not learn from a video study course why does he think others can learn from a video study course?


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## RRepster (May 16, 2009)

Ok I've seen your type enough on the 'net jadecloud. No one else's opinion ever matters, nobody else ever has done right in your eyes. blah blah blah. All bow down to mr. know it all, especially to one who conveniently snips out parts of people's posts to make a person say what they never did by leaving other parts out. We bow down to your all mighty knowledge and superiorousness.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 16, 2009)

> Ok I've seen your type enough on the 'net jadecloud. No one else's opinion ever matters, nobody else ever has done right in your eyes. blah blah blah. All bow down to mr. know it all, especially to one who conveniently snips out parts of people's posts to make a person say what they never did by leaving other parts out. We bow down to your all mighty knowledge and superiorousness.


 Attack the arguement not the person this is known as Ad Hominem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I put things in quotes to address things. If you are happy with your training and feel it is adequate then so be it. In MY OPINION I stated why I do not feel it is the best course it is like your opinion just that an opinion.


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## HKToshindo (May 19, 2009)

Hello,
In my case, despite the fact that I live in Hong Kong now, I am drawn more towards ninjutsu. There are no teachers in Hong Kong of ninjutsu. What would you have me do, give up my dream to learn the art of Masaaki Hatsumi? Someday I hope to travel to Japan and learn from the masters there. In fact, I plan on taking a trip this summer.

Until then, I train as much as I can how I can. If Anshu Hayes did not think that I could learn from his course alone, do you think he would have sold them to me?

Robert


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 19, 2009)

> In my case, despite the fact that I live in Hong Kong now, I am drawn more towards ninjutsu. There are no teachers in Hong Kong of ninjutsu. What would you have me do, give up my dream to learn the art of Masaaki Hatsumi? Someday I hope to travel to Japan and learn from the masters there. In fact, I plan on taking a trip this summer.


 
You can buy a Plane ticket for about $400.00 which is almost the same price as the Toshindo course. An 8 hour plane ride and $400 is nothing compared to a two day drive that I had to do to train.


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## Chris Parker (May 19, 2009)

HKToshindo said:


> Hello,
> In my case, despite the fact that I live in Hong Kong now, I am drawn more towards ninjutsu. There are no teachers in Hong Kong of ninjutsu. What would you have me do, give up my dream to learn the art of Masaaki Hatsumi? Someday I hope to travel to Japan and learn from the masters there. In fact, I plan on taking a trip this summer.
> 
> Until then, I train as much as I can how I can. If Anshu Hayes did not think that I could learn from his course alone, do you think he would have sold them to me?
> ...


 
The benefits of a home-study course not withstanding (although, for the record, the Toshindo one appears to be set up with a support network, which makes it better than most), one thing I might point out HK is that if you are a member of the Toshindo organisation, then you may not be able to train in the Japanese schools if you make it over there.

The Bujinkan and Genbukan organisations are quite adamant about members of other Ninjutsu organsiations (including Toshindo) not being allowed to train in their dojo, just something to be aware of.


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## Cryozombie (May 24, 2009)

Chris Parker said:


> The Bujinkan and Genbukan organisations are quite adamant about members of other Ninjutsu organsiations (including Toshindo) not being allowed to train in their dojo, just something to be aware of.


 
Yes... I agree with this, and would add if you show up at the Hombu, when you are questioned, and cannot produce a current Bujinkan Membership card, reference from your instructor, or tell them you are a Toshindo Home Study student, you _may not_ be asked to leave, but you probably will not be welcomed and given good instruction either... And I'm not trying to be a jerk, that's just my understanding of how it tends to be there. I hear that from a number of people, and they questioned my instructor when he went last year, luckily he had his ducks in a row, and someone there who knew him to vouch for him. Typically they don't let every Tom, Dick, or Harry off the street come in.

Then again, I havn't been there yet, so everything I heard could be a lie, tho I would doubt that.


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## GBlues (May 24, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> You can buy a Plane ticket for about $400.00 which is almost the same price as the Toshindo course. An 8 hour plane ride and $400 is nothing compared to a two day drive that I had to do to train.


 
I don't want to start an argument, but, if it's nothing you should send him the $400 bucks for the flight. I'm sure he would appreciate it.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 25, 2009)

> I don't want to start an argument, but, if it's nothing you should send him the $400 bucks for the flight. I'm sure he would appreciate it.


 


> nothing compared to


 
That means $400.00 is nothing compared to the thousands I have spent traveling to train. Driving two days is nothing compared to an 8 hour plane ride. 

If it was someone I knew well I would have no problem lending them $400.00 for a plane ticket.


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## GBlues (May 25, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> That means $400.00 is nothing compared to the thousands I have spent traveling to train. Driving two days is nothing compared to an 8 hour plane ride.
> 
> If it was someone I knew well I would have no problem lending them $400.00 for a plane ticket.


 
Yeah, I didn't say lend. LOL! My point being, maybe he doesn't have $400.00 to spend on a regular basis, for training. Maybe he has saved up $400 dollars over the course of time, remember this guy lives in hong kong, maybe all he can afford is $400 bucks. What about a place to stay when he gets there? Is Hatsumi going to give him a place to live? Maybe he has kids? Do we know this mans situation? No, we don't. However, if he wishes to study a style of ninjutsu, to-shindo will serve him well. Even if all he can get is the home study course it is better than not having it. THe home study course is good. Training in person is always better, but if he can't afford classes or doesn't have an instructor to study a system or style that he is interested in, we shouldn't discourage him. We shouldn't belittle his attempt because it cost some one else thousands of dollars and 2 or 3 days travel time to go study. When he could pay $400 and have a plane flight. That may be a lot of money to him or someone else, especially in todays economy. Not everybody has the kind of money that you do. Perhaps it would behoove us if we all used a little compassion.  When he could save $400 dollars and at least begin training, and have something there everyday to work from, as opposed to spend $400 dollars once, and getting one lesson every 6 months. Now, I don't know his situation either, but I think it a fair assumption that if he had the money to fly back and forth, he would already be doing that. That's my take on it.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 25, 2009)

> maybe he doesn't have $400.00 to spend on a regular basis, for training.


 Lets say $400.00 every 2 months which works out to $200.00 a month=$50.00 a week=about $10 a day.



> Maybe he has saved up $400 dollars over the course of time, remember this guy lives in hong kong, maybe all he can afford is $400 bucks.


 Sure maybe he is this or that or whatever maybe we use for him. The point is its $400.00 what is the best way to use it to enhance the training. My opinion is if you are 8hrs from the source Japan then you might as well go there then spend $400.00 learning from a video.



> What about a place to stay when he gets there? Is Hatsumi going to give him a place to live?


 Plenty of Youth hostels.

http://www.hihostels.com/dba/country-JP.en.htm#hostelling

It cost about 1500-3300 Yen which is about $15 to $33 a night real cheap.



> Maybe he has kids? Do we know this mans situation? No, we don't


 He can take the kids with him. He can have a friend watch them. All these maybes are excuses.



> However, if he wishes to study a style of ninjutsu, to-shindo will serve him well. Even if all he can get is the home study course it is better than not having it.


 Homestudy courses can build bad habits. So when you go to an actual Dojo instead of learning how to do things correctly the teacher is spending all the time breaking you out of your bad habits. Now you instead of learning at a normal or accelerated pace you are learning at a much slowler pace because of the conditioning of bad habits with learning by video.

I have read the horror stories on other forums you can try E-budo about having to get people out of bad habits due to video training.



> THe home study course is good. Training in person is always better, but if he can't afford classes or doesn't have an instructor to study a system or style that he is interested in, we shouldn't discourage him.


 If you think its good some beg to differ including me. I think class for a month in Japan is $30 it was not as it is in the states but maybe things have changed. He may not have an instructor in his area but its not like he is 2 days from the school or the school is alot of money.


> We shouldn't belittle his attempt because it cost some one else thousands of dollars and 2 or 3 days travel time to go study


 
It's annoying when people do not want to put in the effort of their training they say they love. I was making $6.50 an hour and I managed to save money and fly to Japan which took me about 18hr flight. This guy has $400 and is 8hrs away but no he want to take the easy way of video course?! 



> That may be a lot of money to him or someone else, especially in todays economy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SKB (May 26, 2009)

WOW! Why are we bashing on this fella again? 

Some training is better then no training. In person training is always better. 

What is that old says about  "walking in someone's shoes for a mile"..... or some such?


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## arnisador (May 26, 2009)

SKB said:


> Some training is better then no training.



I dunno...bad habits can become ingrained.

But to each his own!


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## GBlues (May 26, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Lets say $400.00 every 2 months which works out to $200.00 a month=$50.00 a week=about $10 a day.
> 
> Sure maybe he is this or that or whatever maybe we use for him. The point is its $400.00 what is the best way to use it to enhance the training. My opinion is if you are 8hrs from the source Japan then you might as well go there then spend $400.00 learning from a video.
> 
> ...


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 27, 2009)

> So basically what your saying is that because you did that, everybody else should do that, and your way is the best because you chose to eat non-nutritional food so that you could pay for your training.


 What I am sayiing is people use the Homestudy program as a crutch and an excuse for real training. I used my examples to show you that you don't need lots of money to train also I don't even drive yet I still found a way(friend drove me had to pay him off) 






> unfortunately if you don't eat you don't train, you starve.


 I ate Ramen and Vitamins. For 2 weeks it didn't effect my body to much. Again it was an example to show you can save money for training if you really want it.



> A start is better than nothing. Perhaps he will get the videos and find the value in having a live instructor


I thought that too when I bought the complete Liang style Bagua and thought I could learn from it. When I met my teacher and showed him my circle walking he said it was all wrong. See sometimes nothing is better than something. 



> All I'm saying is stop discouraging people because you don't agree with the way people do things. Just because it doesn't work for you, or jive with your morals, or beliefs doesn't mean it's wrong, just means it's different


 I can give my opinion same as you can. I am not the only person who said go find an actual teacher. I gave examples to show anyone and anywhere can get live training they just make excuses and want the easy way out. If you are unwilling to find a way to train with a live teacher then maybe learning by video in your basement is the way for you.



> There are many paths to the same goal, some may take a harder road with more sacrifice, and yet others find a smoother path, but all lead to the same end.


 There is either it is done with a teacher or not with a teacher. Noone is saying videos as a supplement is bad but you got to at least get to a Dojo once a month for corrections.

I have trained in the Bujinkan and Genbukan and I can tell you, you can't learn it by video.


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## ToShinDoKa (May 30, 2009)

Chris Parker said:


> The benefits of a home-study course not withstanding (although, for the record, the Toshindo one appears to be set up with a support network, which makes it better than most), one thing I might point out HK is that if you are a member of the Toshindo organisation, then you may not be able to train in the Japanese schools if you make it over there.
> 
> The Bujinkan and Genbukan organisations are quite adamant about members of other Ninjutsu organsiations (including Toshindo) not being allowed to train in their dojo, just something to be aware of.


 

Very true and very VERY disappointing. :wah:

But yeah, if you did want to train with them, you could always just buy a membership.  I used to hold membership w/ the IBD (international bujinkan dojo).  Not that hard to get.   Whenever I go to a new dojo, out of respect for their school and way, I wear a white belt.

1) to show that I'm a novice as far as in their method (and white belts tend to be more approachable and teachable, so others are more apt to help you compared to judging you).

2) to avoid having to go into detail about what I study or studied w/ those who I'm really not inclined to talk about it w/.  (Going in w/ no crest on your gi and a white belt to learn about another art and the way it works is one of the most NINJA things I think a taijutsu practitioner of To-Shin Do or otherwise could do! LOL)

3) sadly, I admit, for the compliments.  To-Shin Do has enhanced my ability to mimick and pick up the principles of other arts _rather _quickly, because To-Shin Do isn't ridgid and fixed like some arts out there, and encourages body fluidity and adaptation.  So when I to the moves of their art (like when I tapped out a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practioner at a BJJ seminar last year) they're like: "Wow, for a beginner, you sure catch on quick!"  Of course, they are _far _more skilled than I am in their discipline, but since they doubted me because of that belt color and the darkness of theirs, well...it's an awesome learning experience!

GO FOR IT!  To Japan!  Infiltrate the Bujinkan!  
Just kidding:angel:


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## ToShinDoKa (May 30, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> Yes... I agree with this, and would add if you show up at the Hombu, when you are questioned, and cannot produce a current Bujinkan Membership card, reference from your instructor, or tell them you are a Toshindo Home Study student, you _may not_ be asked to leave, but you probably will not be welcomed and given good instruction either... And I'm not trying to be a jerk, that's just my understanding of how it tends to be there. I hear that from a number of people, and they questioned my instructor when he went last year, luckily he had his ducks in a row, and someone there who knew him to vouch for him. Typically they don't let every Tom, Dick, or Harry off the street come in.
> 
> Then again, I havn't been there yet, so everything I heard could be a lie, tho I would doubt that.


 

Again, that's a very sad realization.

I remember back when I trained in the Bujinkan how we read writings about how Hatsumi sensei was offering the teachings to everyone in the world, to unite it. Him being known as a man of integrity, I bet he still holds that view; so you've got to wonder why this is?

But this is a To-Shin Do thread, so I'll focus on that...


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## HKToshindo (Jul 21, 2009)

I started out with the long distance course. Then I flew to Japan and am here now.

Do not make my mistake. Not only do you ingrain habits before you can meet with a teacher that are hard to get rid of, but the habits Mr Hayes teaches are wrong according to all the teachers I have talked with here in Japan.

He has also been lying about his relationship with the Bujinkan and his amount of knowledge. He knows he was not a student and he claims and hints at teaching that he just never got from a real teacher.

I feel used. I know a lot of Toshindo students will not want to admit the truth. I was in their shoes. Their desire to learn is strong, but they also have an ego that says that they can learn from videos and an occasional seminar even thought Dr Hatsumi himself says you cannot learn ninjutsu from videos. I can see that I was controlled by my ego. I had to face it when it became clear that Mr Hayes was lying. It all seems to clear now, but I was so blind up until now.

I urge Toshindo home study students and those thinking about it to get away before you gain habits you cannot unlearn.


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## Chris Parker (Jul 21, 2009)

I posted this over at another thread where you made similar comments, thought I should add it here too...

Okay, friend, chill. If memory serves, you were originally here as a full devotee of Hayes and were yelling down the entire Bujinkan version of things, now you have gone to Japan and been given an alternate you are an absolute devotee of Hatsumi and yelling down Hayes and his organisation. Seriously, you need to find a balance which appears to be lacking...

Why were you so keen on Hayes being the real deal (for you)? You were stating that he was the absolute top Ninjutsu instructor and were going to learn, not from a teacher, but from his DVD Home Study Course. At that point, you had not visited a single class, as you said there were none near you, but were quite vehementally defending Hayes as the true faith. I would like to know what you based your assessment on? Just the books and articles?

You were advised that the Bujinkan and Toshindo organisations had some issues between them, with both giving versions of history which contradicted each other, and that if you decided to go with one (Toshindo), then that would most likely exclude you from the other. You have then gone to Japan, and seen exactly the same thing.

In Japan, you have met with instructors and students, including Hatsumi Sensei, who have given you a version which paints Hayes in a very different light to the one you already had him in. And this has given rise to some very angry feelings in you. Why? Hayes has presented the image to his students that he wants, Hatsumi is presenting the image to his students that he wants, both are (most likely) flawed and highly biased, in the end, it doesn't really matter. Go with the teacher you feel can help you most, and don't worry about the rest. Remember, Hatsumi has shown a habit of painting current students in very favourable colours, and then after they leave, saying that "they never really learnt anything, I never showed them anything, they were never here, they never really got it, etc". He did it with Hayes, with Brian McCarthy, even with Tanemura. The class after Tanemura left, Hatsumi got the group of teachers together to show them the "true" ninjutsu, which he had never shown before (to read between the lines, anyone who follows Tanemura will never really get the arts, because they were never taught while Tanmura was there).

This is not to denigrate Hatsumi or Hayes. Both have their agendas, and that is the normal way of things. The thing is not to take everything you hear as gospel, and not to get so consumed by the words of others that you base your own sense of worth (in the arts) on how you esteem them. They are just human, after all. Hatsumi and Hayes have both gotten quite rich off this...

If you find yourself getting angry at Hayes (you use the term "hatred" to describe your feelings towards a man you have never met or had any correspondance with as far as I know), I would gently recommend that you look to yourself. Hayes has not betrayed you, he has simply not lived up to the image you had in your mind... or rather, others have knocked him down from the lofty position he occupied in your mind. And that is not a fault of Hayes, rather it is something in yourself that needs looking at.


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## jks9199 (Jul 21, 2009)

HKToshindo said:


> I started out with the long distance course. Then I flew to Japan and am here now.
> 
> Do not make my mistake. Not only do you ingrain habits before you can meet with a teacher that are hard to get rid of, but the habits Mr Hayes teaches are wrong according to all the teachers I have talked with here in Japan.
> 
> ...


You've highlighted the dangers of video learning, rather than using a video as a help and aid -- but you've overgeneralized into painting Stephen Hayes into some kind of evil greedy monster.

I don't know the exact extent of his training -- but a fair amount of it is documented.  He trained enough to have been listed by Hatsumi as a full instructor.  But then he went his own way, which is not the same as Hatsumi's.  I suspect Hayes also misunderstood some of the way in which things were handled, because the Japanese culture is very complex and very easy for non-Japanese to misunderstand.

You've got a chance now to learn the art directly, as it's being taught today.  Focus your efforts on learning as much as you can, as correctly as you can.  Don't worry about the past and your mis-steps; instead, train hard now.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 21, 2009)

*It is best not to have wild swings one way or another.  *

You have now found your truth and I applaud you for going to the source and training with Sensei!  Congratulations on that decision!  However temper your new enthusiasm with restraint and train hard but in your case maybe  leave your past behind you!  From all accounts Mr. Hayes only sold you a DVD course and now you find that it does not meet up to what you experience in Japan. (like very much would)  That is okay but to go farther and try to nail him to the wall does you no good at all.  Instead focus on your training and continue on.  

One thing that is good is that you now know learning from video tapes is pretty useless without a qualified instructor to show you the way.


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## Omar B (Jul 21, 2009)

These last couple posts are a great example of what happens when someone tries to learn from tape.  I think they should be stickied and possibly pasted in every thread pertaining to video learning.


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## Niko (Jul 23, 2009)

Omar B said:


> These last couple posts are a great example of what happens when someone tries to learn from tape. I think they should be stickied and possibly pasted in every thread pertaining to video learning.


 
That's a load of crap.   All that those posts show is that HKToshindo is a little unbalanced and didn't quite know what he was getting into.  If anything should be "stickied", it should be Chris Parker's most recent post!
But I do agree that any kind of home study course should be a supplement to face-to-face training and not the only form of study that the person does.  But I also believe that such courses provided a valuable service for those people that aren't close enough to study regularly with an instructor teaching what they want to learn.  Like anything, you get out of it what you put into it.  But there is no reason why a person with some athletic ability and dedication can't take a well-constructed home study course, work on it diligently, and make trips as often as possible to get hands-on training with people connected to the course.  From what I've seen, getting a Toshindo Black Belt through the home study course is no easy task.  Black Belt testing is done only in person with high-ranking instructors and is taken very seriously.

Keith


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## ToShinDoKa (Nov 10, 2009)

Niko said:


> From what I've seen, getting a Toshindo Black Belt through the home study course is no easy task. Black Belt testing is done only in person with high-ranking instructors and is taken very seriously.
> 
> Keith


 
:lool: I can testify to that statement.  Heck, I drove up 9 hours (18 hrs. R.T.) to Dayton for my BB testing and found out just how much I was not ready for it.  I allowed myself to get comfortable with my own ways of doing things instead of paying closer attention to the vids' advice and the advice from my friends at the closest Quest Center 4 hours away.  So, I took what I'd learned from just that one day there, amped up my training to five days a week, for at least 1 1/2 each day, and visited again 6 months later.  I went back thrice as confident and apparently performed thrice as well as I had the first time.  

Now I'm sporting a black belt that I know I've earned.  On my desk is a BB diploma that I've spent 5 years and countless hours training for.  And, most importantly, I can apply what I've learned. Whether I'm rolling with my BJJ and National Guard friends, or going a round or two (or one, as I'm kinda' lazy) with some of the guys who train at my gym, I can hold my own.

Vids alone, don't recommend it.  Vids as a supplement to get you at least moving the right way before you visit a Quest Center _or _give you ideas for training drills after you've trained with an instructor, I can testify it works pretty well.


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## TaiChiTJ (Dec 28, 2009)

> Hayes has presented the image to his students that he wants, Hatsumi is presenting the image to his students that he wants, both are (most likely) flawed and highly biased, in the end, it doesn't really matter. Go with the teacher you feel can help you most, and don't worry about the rest.


 

This is excellent advice!

:ultracool


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## SensibleManiac (Dec 28, 2009)

HKToshindo said:


> I urge Toshindo home study students and those thinking about it to get away before you gain habits you cannot unlearn.



You can ALWAYS unlearn habits, it might be difficult and wouldbe easier if you learned right the first time, but the fact is that bad habits can always be unlearned.


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## Harald (May 17, 2010)

I'd have to agree with what others have stated here. I'd get a course on DVDs as a supplement to my training with a good coach / sensei / whatever, but not as a replacement. Why? Because you really can't replace that stuff with a set of DVDs. That's the harsh reality of it all.


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## TheArtofDave (Mar 29, 2018)

Even though its been a whooping 8 years since a reply on here I'm going to add my 2 cents regardless.

The To-Shind Do home study course has an option where you an earn rank by sending a video of yourself in performing the bunkai you've learned and it will be graded by the black belts of the system so you can progress to the next belt. They have their own colored belts. So you want to familiarize yourself with them.

It will take you four years to get to black belt. You can send in videos of yourself until you get to brown belt. You have to attend a class in person to test for black belt. To-Shin Do is not traditional ninjutsu. Its a modern take on the system.

If you were going to train you'd likely need a training partner and if you were going to video yourself for rank you better have trained each dvd for at least 4 to 5 months before doing so.


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## Martial D (Mar 29, 2018)

And ten years later, it turns out trying to teach yourself martial arts off the internet is still a terrible idea.


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## JR 137 (Mar 31, 2018)

Martial D said:


> And ten years later, it turns out trying to teach yourself martial arts off the internet is still a terrible idea.


I can’t rate funny, like and agree at the same time.  Why can I only choose one?


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## Tez3 (Mar 31, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I can’t rate funny, like and agree at the same time.  Why can I only choose one?



You posted funny, I'll post agree and if someone else posts like, we'll have covered all three and Martial D can understand it represents us posting on all three options.


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## O'Malley (Mar 31, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> You posted funny, I'll post agree and if someone else posts like, we'll have covered all three and Martial D can understand it represents us posting on all three options.



Let me jump on this bandwagon, I need friends.


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## JR 137 (Mar 31, 2018)

O'Malley said:


> Let me jump on this bandwagon, I need friends.


Hello, friend.


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## O'Malley (Mar 31, 2018)

I'm not your friend, buddy!


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## JR 137 (Mar 31, 2018)

O'Malley said:


> I'm not your friend, buddy!


Ok, pal.


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## Razznik (Feb 18, 2021)

To-Shin Do is a martial art founded by Black Belt Hall of Fame instructor Stephan Kayes Haes in 1997. It is a *modernized version of ninjutsu* and *differs from the traditional form* taught by Masaaki Hatsumi's Bujinkan organization. Instruction focuses on threats found in contemporary western society. In addition to hand-to-hand combat skills, students are exposed to methods for survival in hostile environments, security protection for dignitaries, how to instruct classes and run a school, classical Japanese weapons, meditation mind science, and health restoration yoga. The headquarters school (Hombu) is located in Dayton, Ohio, USA.

So, it is related to ninjutsu, but it is not ninjutsu.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 24, 2021)

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> To-Shin Do is a martial art founded by Black Belt Hall of Fame instructor Stephan Kayes Haes in 1997. It is a *modernized version of ninjutsu* and *differs from the traditional form* taught by Masaaki Hatsumi's Bujinkan organization. Instruction focuses on threats found in contemporary western society. In addition to hand-to-hand combat skills, students are exposed to methods for survival in hostile environments, security protection for dignitaries, how to instruct classes and run a school, classical Japanese weapons, meditation mind science, and health restoration yoga. The headquarters school (Hombu) is located in Dayton, Ohio, USA.
> 
> So, it is related to ninjutsu, but it is not ninjutsu.



Number one, this is not an answer to any question in the thread.
Number two, this thread is from 2008, and the original poster is long gone.
Number three, the question is on the home study course, not where the hombu is, or even what the relationship is to the Bujinkan and other expressions of the same art.
Number four, "the traditional form taught by Hatsumi"?!? Ha!
Number five, who said anything about claims of being "ninjutsu"?

What experience and knowledge do you actually have in this area? I ask as you've resurrected a number of threads in this area, but have a fair bit wrong, and your only claimed training and knowledge is in TKD... nothing like the topics you're posting on in many cases.


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## Justin33 (Feb 28, 2021)

So is this art still around? I mean, are there any schools left or am I just in the dark?


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## Jusroc (Oct 1, 2021)

Toshindo online

I believe Anshu (founder) of Toshindo is still around. His website can be found above.

I think like the Gracie University program, Toshindo is a home study course which is designed to be more like a seed, which will start a person's interest off to train in the style and develop a good practice,
which will hopefully result them in eventually hooking up with real life clubs and ultimately, for the people who follow them, starting their own clubs.

And yes, training at a real life quality club with a good quality instructor will be superior to home study training but there are some circumstances that people don't have access to the system of martial art they want to lear in the area that they live and a professional developed home study course developed and taught by one of the worlds leading instructors is a solution, which will at least give people an idea of what the art is about.

I think that Stephen K Hayes is a really interesting positive guy, who has loads of experience in all sorts of areas of the martial arts. He's intelligent, kind heart'ed and level headed. I believe he offers a great deal of insight into not only the techniques that he teaches within his Toshindo system but also teaches aspects of mind science, the psychology of the street battle field. life skills that many qualified instructors who may be technically proficient may lack.

I also think that he is a generally good influence, which is perhaps particularly needed 
for people who want to train in anything to do with Ninjutsu, 

As I would say that Ninjutsu does attract more than its fair share of people who are a little nuts.
I think that such an art really does need strong leaders who have their feet on the ground and morally strong.

Ninjutsu, haven derived from real life spy craft includes all sorts of information that could potentially make a person extremely dangerous to innocent people in society.  So, when people learn about such things, some people need a strong moral influence to prevent them going off the rails and using their new found skills of manipulation for the wrong purposes.

I know all to well, as people who i grew up with (during the 80s) were obsessed with ninjutsu but due to living on an island, there was no clubs in this style of marital art to join.

These self styled self taught pseudo ninja unfortunately also developed an unhealthy interest in other dark occultism, and amalgamated their interests in black occult with much of the darker elements found in the history books on ninjutsu. 

I believe this group of people who i grew up with have done irreversible damage to quiet a few people's lives, and have used some of the more manipulative aspects of mind science to spread slander (misinformation / disinformation) in the area that i live (a small Island), so that people believe the truth as lies, and lies as truth.

If only Stephen K Hayes lived in this island, he may have been able to have stopped these people from ruining innocent peoples lives.

I have no anger towards ninjutsu nor Toshindo. I think that Anshu Stephen K Hayes is a really good guy, and has a lot to offer people of todays world, as well as those who are interested in the history and traditions.

In the danger of sounding like a crap B movie from the 80s
"With great power, comes great responsibility!"


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## dunc (Oct 1, 2021)

I don't know Stephen Hayes, in the last 30+ years I know of only one time he visited Hatsumi Sensei despite him giving the impression that he trained a lot under Soke
I give him some credit for marketing the art back in the day and inspiring many of us to start training, but I also blame him for branding the art in a disingenuous way and for making up a load of crap that's taken many years to remove from the zeitgeist 

His movement is terrible


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## Jusroc (Oct 1, 2021)

Fair enough. I do not know Stephen Hayes either.
What I have seen of him in terms of his personality and promoting Buddhism, I personally like.
I am not commenting on his technical instruction.

I have watched one of the Toshindo DVDS and found his approach to teaching quiet interesting.
What I found interesting is that he wasn't super rigid with regards as to his advice as to how to defend oneself against various attacks.

He appears to be more a Problem / Solution type of guy in his teaching leaving room for the individual to react more naturally using their natural instincts and way of moving rather than attempting to pull out a cookie cutter technique out the bag. 

I found this interesting in itself, haven been brought up doing kenpo, which has a big system of self defence techniques which some practice with high level of rigidity and precision.

So. I guess I found his approach very open minded.
Personally i like what i have seen of him.

You have the right to your opinion and preference.
So. yep. fair enough.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 10, 2021)

dunc said:


> I don't know Stephen Hayes, in the last 30+ years I know of only one time he visited Hatsumi Sensei despite him giving the impression that he trained a lot under Soke
> I give him some credit for marketing the art back in the day and inspiring many of us to start training, but I also blame him for branding the art in a disingenuous way and for making up a load of crap that's taken many years to remove from the zeitgeist
> 
> His movement is terrible





Jusroc said:


> Fair enough. I do not know Stephen Hayes either.
> What I have seen of him in terms of his personality and promoting Buddhism, I personally like.
> I am not commenting on his technical instruction.
> 
> ...


I can't claim to know Steve terribly well, but I have attended a bunch of his seminars and classes (back while he was still part of the Bujinkan), had occasional encounters with him outside the dojo, and I used to be friends with people who did know him well. For what it's worth, here are my observations...

*Positives*
He is a very engaging teacher and an entertaining raconteur.
He explains concepts clearly.
He's a creative thinker.
He is very good at using physical techniques and principles as embodied metaphors for broader life lessons. This is the single biggest net benefit I took away from my time in the Bujinkan and I still apply this sort of thinking to my current training.

*Negatives*
He is definitely a used car salesman/politician type of personality who uses his charisma to help apply what might charitably be called "spin" to his accounts of his training and interactions with others. (Some of my friends who knew him better would probably be less charitable in their descriptions of his honesty.)
He greatly exaggerated (by implication if nothing else) the amount of training he actually had in the Bujinkan.
He added ideas of his own to the curriculum he was teaching, which would have been fine if he had acknowledged it, but he gave the impression for years that they were part of the official Bujinkan material.
For a long time he discouraged students from going to Japan to learn from the source first hand. When some of my friends started going over to Japan to train, they report that the shihans asked "What took you so long? We've been telling Steve to send students over here to learn for years."
He pushed a grandiose vision of ninja as enlightened mystical warriors and of his shidoshi title as meaning "teacher of the warrior ways of enlightenment." Then he seemed surprised when all sorts of flakes started showing up on his doorstep.
In common with many other X-kan instructors, he got creative with developing techniques without ever pressure testing what he was doing. A lot of the underlying principles of what he teaches are sound. The actual application - not so much.


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## Jusroc (Oct 10, 2021)

Interesting to read.


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