# Circle of Doom



## Dominic Jones (Jun 3, 2003)

First, thanks for your replies to Striking Serpents Head.

Now Circle of doom

Circle of Doom (Front- Right Step-Through Front Kick) 
1. An attacker at 12 o'clock comes at you with a right step-through front kick. 

2. From a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock, with your right arm hang naturally. Pivot into a right reverse bow as you execute a right inward downward (palm down) block in and up against your attacker's right leg. Continue to circle your right arm clockwise into a right extended outward block as you force your attacker's leg out. 

3. Immediately execute a right rear heel hook to your attacker's groin. 

4. Plant your right foot as a gauging leg and execute a left spinning hook kick up to your attacker's head. 

5. Land in a left front crossover and cross out to 4:30. 

(Copied from http://www.kenponet.com thankyou)

Well I like this technique but...  The first move involves  blocking/deflecting a kick.  I feel that the stance change from neutral to reverse bow is insufficient to get the target (my body) out of the line of attack.  


What do you think?:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Jun 4, 2003)

It works for me ... and I have a lot of body to fade back.  Maybe the depth of penetration of the kick is such that you cannot redirect the kick while it is still inbound and you are able to deal with their ankle/shin area.

Of note - the hook kick to the head is not "up" for me, as the effect of the vertical heel kick to the groin affects height.  LOL, they are bent over to some degree from the impact compromising height and naturally width and depth.  I have actually used this one... and was spinning into the hook kick when I noticed they were on their hands and knees.  It seemed like overkill to kick them again, besides there were witnesses. 

Whoops!


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 4, 2003)

I haven't worked this technique before. It sounds cool.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *I haven't worked this technique before. It sounds cool. *



It says on your profile 2nd Black.   Is this a Kenpo rank or something else because this technique is green for us and you say you haven't worked it yet?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Handsword (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dominic Jones _
> *
> 
> I feel that the stance change from neutral to reverse bow is insufficient to get the target (my body) out of the line of attack.
> ...



I begin this technique from a natural standing position and then step back into stance.  I find that this moves the target far enough to get it out of the way.

Noting that the depth of a front kick can vary depending on how an attacker kicks (eg. launching into it) you may find it useful to shuffle back with the stance change in order to get out of the way.

I find that this technique works well with Intellectual Departure which begins in a similar way against a right front kick.


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## Michael Billings (Jun 4, 2003)

*Intellectual Departure and Circle of Doom*

If the kick is below the waist, Intellectual Departure seems more appropriate.  For a kick a litttle higher you go into Circle of Doom as a What If.  I think I will try this in Advanced class on Thursday night and see what works.

Oss!


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Intellectual Departure and Circle of Doom
> 
> If the kick is below the waist, Intellectual Departure seems more appropriate.  For a kick a litttle higher you go into Circle of Doom as a What If.  I think I will try this in Advanced class on Thursday night and see what works.
> ...



Being that most don't get taught Intellectual Departure it's kind of hard to give them a reference for Circle of Doom in  Green.    There are many ways to approach the theme of these two techniques and I believe Huk calls it Category Completion.   ID works on the inside of the body where COD works on the backside.    You can also tie them in the Family Group as they have the same Mother/Father movements.   You can also categorize them as evolutionized movements such as Scraping Hoof/Repeated Devastation/Twirling Sacrifice.   In other wordswhen the situation gets just a bit different there's a built in what if in the system with another technique at a different level.   Personally, if the kick it groin and below I do a shin block for ID, above the waist, either tech. will work well.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## rmcrobertson (Jun 4, 2003)

Why the kick to the head at the end? Not only does it expose you way too much for my taste, but it encourages bad body mechanics in the spinning hook kick. Instead, I'd argue for what I was taught: a hook that comes up the angle of the body, contouring along to a target of opportunity such aas groin or solar plexus. 

After all, the description of actually executing the tech put the guy on his knees--in which case the head as target sorta makes more sense. But I wouldn't describe it to students as going for the head while they're standing--especially since, at 3rd Brown or so, they should be learning techniques with similar kicks...


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *It says on your profile 2nd Black.   Is this a Kenpo rank or something else because this technique is green for us and you say you haven't worked it yet?
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...


Yet there is no yet. Iv'e seen the technique and worke the first move on occassion but I would not execute the spinnig hook kick nor would I turn into a reverse bow againnst a chargin opponent. We just don't work that technique, no matter what belt level it is taught at.


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## Billy Lear (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Yet there is no yet. Iv'e seen the technique and worke the first move on occassion but I would not execute the spinnig hook kick nor would I turn into a reverse bow againnst a chargin opponent. We just don't work that technique, no matter what belt level it is taught at. *



Seems to me the mighty Touch "O" Death just can't do it.


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## Michael Billings (Jun 4, 2003)

I agree about the practical application of the technique.  Remember the Ideal Phase includes full range of motion and is a nice place to learn the application for a spinning hook.   

Now having said that: I do it your way.  But I can see several reasons for learning it as written, as one of the stages, or tiers, that techniques progress or evolve through as the skill level of the practitioner increases.

-Oss!


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Yet there is no yet. Iv'e seen the technique and worke the first move on occassion but I would not execute the spinnig hook kick nor would I turn into a reverse bow againnst a chargin opponent. We just don't work that technique, no matter what belt level it is taught at. *



I could've sworn Circle Of Doom was for a right front roundhouse or front kick not a tackle or charge.    I've actually used this technique sparring and I really can't complain, it works perfectly in the ideal phase, I suppose that's why I've got all that silly red on my belt. 

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *I could've sworn Circle Of Doom was for a right front roundhouse or front kick not a tackle or charge.    I've actually used this technique sparring and I really can't complain, it works perfectly in the ideal phase, I suppose that's why I've got all that silly red on my belt.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...


If you read the tackle in my response perhaps you are on to somthing with that belt thing. I'm suggesting there are better techs for these kicks. To shuffle kick constitutes a charge to me but your the GM.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 4, 2003)

*Mod Note:*

I'm a little late to the party, but, please keep it profesional and on topic.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *If you read the tackle in my response perhaps you are on to somthing with that belt thing. I'm suggesting there are better techs for these kicks. To shuffle kick constitutes a charge to me but your the GM. *



I read charge and that could refer to many things, didn't know what to take it as.    I've never interpreted a  shuffle as a charge but I suppose it could be taken that way but we don't teach it for  a shuffle kick.     I can't figure why you can't or won't do it but I'm certainly not leaving it out of what I teach, I find lots of value in that particular technique.   In fact, I've found value in all of them so far, and no,  I'm not a grandmaster, just a professor (one big bar + one little one), and you are what rank again?


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## arnisador (Jun 4, 2003)

The discussion of who is what rank might be better handled by e-mail rather than in this forum.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## KenpoDragon (Jun 5, 2003)

HEHEHEHEHE!!!!


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## Handsword (Jun 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDragon _
> *HEHEHEHEHE!!!!
> 
> *



I wouldn't say it was getting interesting - I'd say it was getting off-topic and spiralling down into a 'hollier-than-thou' war.

Not that there is anything of a lasting nature to gain from such a 'Cirlce of Doom'. :asian:


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## Handsword (Jul 11, 2003)

Another use of the circling block (inward downward to outward extended) in Circle of Doom is against a thrusting baton attack.

Against a right thrusting baton attack to the body, use the initial move from Circle of Doom to block at the inside of the opponent's wrist while your left hand pins the weapon to your body (obviously this is better for blunt weapons).  

Now as your right hand circles into the extended outward, you can step forward with your left leg to disarm the opponent, gain use of the weapon and end up on the blind side.

I'm sure that anyone that gets that far can work out their own finishes from there.


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 11, 2003)

So--after you junk Circle of Doom, do you also junk Rotating Destruction?


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *I read charge and that could refer to many things, didn't know what to take it as.    I've never interpreted a  shuffle as a charge but I suppose it could be taken that way but we don't teach it for  a shuffle kick.     I can't figure why you can't or won't do it but I'm certainly not leaving it out of what I teach, I find lots of value in that particular technique.   In fact, I've found value in all of them so far, and no,  I'm not a grandmaster, just a professor (one big bar + one little one), and you are what rank again?
> 
> 
> ...


My problem with this tech is the spinning hook kick. I use the first two moves in sparring all the time however the whole spinnig hook kick thing is somthing I've never been responsible for. That is,my instructor wouldn't be upset if I opted for becoming neutral and maybe using a back nuckle strike instead of the turnning your back on your opponent thing. According to the Martial talk ranking system I am a blue belt and will remain so until I figure out how to put an avatar under my name or until I blather on to Brown.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *My problem with this tech is the spinning hook kick. I use the first two moves in sparring all the time however the whole spinnig hook kick thing is somthing I've never been responsible for. That is,my instructor wouldn't be upset if I opted for becoming neutral and maybe using a back nuckle strike instead of the turnning your back on your opponent thing. According to the Martial talk ranking system I am a blue belt and will remain so until I figure out how to put an avatar under my name or until I blather on to Brown. *



OK.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## dcence (Jul 14, 2003)

From my perspective, it doesn't make a lot of sense to block the guys leg one direction, only to move it back across your body in the other direction.  The guys line of attack is straight at you.  I don't see logic in blocking the kick inward, then after you have deflected the kick off the line of attack, moving it back across your body.  It is a little like first blocking a punch with an inward block, only to move it back across your body with an outward punch.

Additionally, the guy has to be a pretty slow kicker or extremely cooperative to allow you to first block it in, hook it, and then take it the other direction.

I prefer to think of this as a formulation solution to the "what-if" the kick is not a low kick, but turns into a high kick.  You originally block inward thinking you are covering the lower zones against a front kick to the groin, but the kick goes high and you have to adjust -- so you end up blocking outward.

Derek Ence


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## feintem (Aug 27, 2003)

Don't block use the hands as a frame. when they attack fade reverse bow and with the rotation crack some nuts with a heal hook. Then when the poor guy bends over hook him in the face with the left.  





Respect,Loyalty,Blood,and Honor

-Michael-


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## FiveSwords (Aug 27, 2003)

> I prefer to think of this as a formulation solution to the "what-if" the kick is not a low kick, but turns into a high kick.



I agree.  Intellectual Depature is a much cleaner technique for this kind of kick, and I think it's a shame that it's a lost techinuque.  ID and CoD really should be taught together as a what-if situation.

Then you can throw in ID, CoD, and Rotating Destruction and have yourself a progressive what-if party.   

(Plus it would make a sweet Tekken combo)


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## Michael Billings (Aug 27, 2003)

Intellectual into Circle into Rotating.  I like it!!!  I have played with Intellectual into Circle, but did not get any further with it.  I have kept Intellectual Departure and Spreading Branch in my curriculum very much on purpose.

Intellectual is a great technique to use sparring and is a Point of Origin response to a kick when your hands are down.  Deflecting Hammer is "there" when you need it if your hands are above your waist.  

Very nice indeed.
-MB


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## FiveSwords (Aug 27, 2003)

> I have kept Intellectual Departure and Spreading Branch in my curriculum very much on purpose.



We do those and Agressive Twins as kind of an afterthought or as the "lost yellow techniques".

Spreading Branch is rough for beginners, especially kids, so I can see why they axed it.  The other two are simple and efficient, though, so I don't know why they were dropped.  I think the ID block is great and I use it all the time in sparring, but I can't think of any other techniques have it if you don't teach ID.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by FiveSwords _
> *I agree.  Intellectual Depature is a much cleaner technique for this kind of kick, and I think it's a shame that it's a lost techinuque.  ID and CoD really should be taught together as a what-if situation.
> 
> Then you can throw in ID, CoD, and Rotating Destruction and have yourself a progressive what-if party.
> ...



I don't know who's training you right now but it sounds like they have their stuff in one sock.    I was just teaching these very scenarios with these techniques about a month ago.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## FiveSwords (Aug 28, 2003)

> ...but it sounds like they have their stuff in one sock.



Forgive me for asking a silly question, but what does this mean?  I've never heard that phrase before.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by FiveSwords _
> *Forgive me for asking a silly question, but what does this mean?  I've never heard that phrase before.    *



They have their s**t together, or stuff in one sock to be nice.     You appear to have a good knowledge of what Kenpo is from your post.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## FiveSwords (Aug 28, 2003)

Right...ok, that makes sense now.  

Many thanks.  :asian:   My instructor studied under Mr. Planas, so he has a good base for what this stuff is really about.  I just recently got my first black, however, so I'm only beginning to realize just how little I know.


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## psi_radar (Sep 18, 2003)

I just got here so I need to catch up!

1) I was taught that Circle of Doom was the result of a bait, sort of like showing your ribs in Retreating Pendulum. In CID, you hold your guard low (facilitating the block) while leaving the head as a big, shiny, candy-like target that hopefully draws in your opponent. Is that how you guys learned it?

2) One cool way of doing Intellectual Departure is to use a right shin block rather than a right low inward block, then use the block as the first part of the left (hop) spin kick --decreases the amount of motion needed. Great for sparring.

3) This is the first time I've heard of Spreading Branches. What is its origin, and how does it go?


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## FiveSwords (Sep 18, 2003)

Hey, psi!  Welcome to the board.

1.  I never intentionally leave my guard down, whether I'm trying to bait or not.  I used to do just that all the time, but I went to a seminar with Russel Animazou (sp?) and he proceeded to smack me in the face before I even knew he moved.  He said no one, not even him, is fast enough to guard against a rush if your hands are down.

That said, we practice the technique as though you just did a right downward block or something that put you in that position unintentionally.

2.  Interesting idea with the shin block, but I think it would lose the effect of stretching him out with the inward downward block.  How do you do ID?  It sounds like it may be a bit different from what we do.

3.  Spreading Branch, from what I've heard, is the original version of Captured Twigs, but they discovered that kids had problems doing this technique on larger opponents and changed it.  Here's how I learned it:

Pin the opponent's hands, step out left into a horse, right hammer the groin (just like CT).
Step to 7:30 with your right leg to buckle opponent's left leg as you right backknuckle to the face.
Grab his head with both hands and deliver a right knee to his face as you drive towards 1:30.
As you land, circle your right arm around and deliver a right downward elbow strike to the spine.
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Hope that helps!


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## Michael Billings (Sep 18, 2003)

The back knuckle is an insert, I use it, but for lower students, it tends to knock the head away from the knee, and they have trouble bring the body back down.  Of course if they inserted the sleeper constriction and subsequent neck-break, the back fist does not matter.

-MB


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## psi_radar (Sep 18, 2003)

Thanks for the welcome and description of Spreading Branch, FiveSwords. I've never been a big fan of Captured Twigs, so I might try that on and see how it fits. 

ID is not a part of our "official" curriculum, meaning I learned it, but more as a footnote or sparring technique. My understanding of the technique goes like so:

From a natural stance, avoid a committed front kick coming in around waist level by stepping back with the left to a right neutral bow, and deflect the kick with an inward palm-in low block.

As the opponent's leg is now passing you, turn shoulders to 6:00 into a reverse cat, then blast a right back kick into the opponent's solar-plexus/groin. 

Is that the base you learned?

The shin-block version is definitely not textbook Kenpo (sorry if I made it sound that way), it was presented as more of an informal alternative, but I always thought it maintained the same principles. The right shin block doesn't halt the kick, it still allows your opponent to get pretty deep, and opens their width to accept the hop -left-spin-back kick. I find it works best in sparring, after you've discovered your opponent's rhythm and can anticipate their front kick. That way you can really just rip it as a kick, with your shin just happening to knock their leg in the beginning.


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## FiveSwords (Sep 18, 2003)

> From a natural stance, avoid a committed front kick coming in around waist level by stepping back with the left to a right neutral bow, and deflect the kick with an inward palm-in low block.
> 
> As the opponent's leg is now passing you, turn shoulders to 6:00 into a reverse cat, then blast a right back kick into the opponent's solar-plexus/groin.



Yeah, I think we're on the same page.  I was just a bit perplexed.   

To finish, we plant the foot that just kicked and torque into a right back knuckle strike, then drag the left foot up and right side kick the knee.


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