# A beginner with no expectations question



## charyuop (Jul 27, 2006)

Hi everyone.
I remember when I used to live in home town going to the park to play soccer and seeing group of people doing Tai Chi (back then I knew nothing about it) and that really mesmerized me.
Unfortunately now I live in a small town and the closest Tai Chi school is more than 2 hours away from me.
I looked online for videos and found free online classes. I looked into the master giving the lessons and by what I read is a good one (Micheal Gilman). So after a little of online classes I started buying his DVD to help me. In his DVDs he shows the solo forms, applications and much more. He explains very detailed. There is also videos for Push Hands, but kinda useless to me since I have no second person to practice with.
Now I know pretty well that without a teacher next to you it is hardly impossible to catch the depth of Tai Chi, but how far from real Tai Chi will it be?
What I am "learning" is the Yang Style long form (108) which by what I read around is not the original Yang Style, but it was a form modified by one of the Yang family so that it could be practiced basically by anyone.

By the way, I read an interview of one of the students of the old Yang masters in which he says that the original form of Yang Stayle was good, but the one modified (I guess the name was Yang Cheng Fu) is healthy, but no use in self defense...is it true?


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## kimballmaster (Jul 27, 2006)

Lucky for you one of the prescibed methods of study is to get a book and a couple of friends and work it out. Yang Chen Po actually said that!!
In Chen ManChings notes he also talked about some dude he met that was really good who learned everything he knew from books, and he said he was pretty awsom, and Cheng Man Ching was suposed to have hated every one, ( In his book the Thirteen Chapters he acually said of himself that Tai-Chi never cured his crappy personallity.
  It is important to find others to study with to get  several perspectives and becouse it is more fun that way too.
 I've been studying for 36 years and teaching for 32, and your situation is something I have run into quite a bit so don't let it get you down. 
 Some of the greatest Yang style guys learned by sneeking around Chen village and peeking through little holes or whatever.
 Remember Tai-Chi-Chuan is is not a religion, there are no judgments to be made. Remember also that you are unqualified to judge yourself...ha-ha
 Some things you can do to limit any problems or potential damaging habits are part of the sub-system called safe passage...
 Why here's a couple now, Don't lean over...stay straight up and down or your your gonna get a backache and you won't wanna practice..
 Also keep your wieght close to the heels or your knees will hurt and... that's right you won't wannapractice...
 O.K. to answer your question about fighting with Tai-Chi-Chuan, Tai-Chi-Chuan translates to supreem ultimate fighting or extreem excessive fighting. I'll tell you the applications of any of the forms if you want... cool?? 
 Not sharing is the shortest road to becoming a real dipwad
 I been doing this forever and I'm rooting for ya
 Master Kimball David Ben Leslie Paul A.K.A. The Fat Man
kimballmaster@yahoo.com


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## charyuop (Jul 27, 2006)

Thank you for your answer. I pay attention to all the "safety rules" very carefully just like also master Gilman says in his videos (back streight, no inward knee banding and so on...I din't know about the weight on the heel tho). I am very "picky" on my stances, I often stop in the middle of them to check my position and the feet position till I feel comfortable to enter the stance in the whole solo form.
My wife did kung fu for some years and I don't even see her punches start so imagine join-follow-lead haa haa. But my curiosity was if with time and hard practice I can reach good result.
I have a DVD showing 2 or more applications for any of the 108 movements of the Yang Style Long Form. Mine was only a curiosity since a traditional Yang Style master said that the "new" Yang Style was not good for self defense, but just as a healthy exercise (and I visited quite a few forums and everywhere there is always someone who belittles it).
As per me, I looked at all styles and since, living in a small town, the chances I will need self defence is very tiny, I stick with Yang Style which for is the one that "hypnotize" me more. Above all when seeing a master doing it....it is speechless!             (Don't laugh, but to me Tai Chi is a real Art!)


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 27, 2006)

The majority of Yang style you see today comes from Yang Chengfu

Yang style was changed by Yang Chengfu however his version is still good for fighting, he was allegedly undefeated. However much of the Yang style you see to day has changed in various ways since Yang Chengfu, including the current Yang family version. 

Yang Chengfu's Uncle Yang Benhou (Yang Panhou) did a different version that had higher stances, more fajing and he too was allegedly undefeated.

Yang Chengfu's older brother Yang Shaohou learned form his uncle. Yang Chengfu allegedly learned more from his father Yang Chienhou than anyone else.

However Yang Chengfu is said to be the better teacher. He had more students and as far as I know never killed one. Yang Shaohou was very rough on his students and is alleged to have killed at least one students demonstrating fajing, I believe. 

The Yang Style Tai Chi Family Tree
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/yang.html

Yang Style comes from Chen style via Yang Luchan who was a student of Chen Changhsing and the previous story as to how he learned is correct. He watched through the fence. It is alleged that he fought and defeated a challenger that came to challenge Chen and that is how he became an actual student of Chen. The first non-Chen family person to learn the real stuff.


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## charyuop (Jul 28, 2006)

I thought that Yang Style was still good for self defense, also because looking at the applications I have here at home it look very effective.

Anyway Xue Sheng (don't mean to argue hee hee, just reporting the words in the interview...I tried to find it, but don't recall the site) they asked that master the same question. How is it that Chengfu style is not good for self defense and Chengfu himself was considered one of the best in the art of self defense. The answer was "remember that Chengfu started with the deep knowledge of the traditional style".

There was another part that was weird. This master said that there are two aspect in Tai Chi. One is very famous and that is the using the opponent energy against himsel, but the second one he refused to say coz he said it was too lethal...bah who knows.

(As I said I fell in love with the Yang Style and that is what I do).


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## charyuop (Jul 28, 2006)

I have found the link, here it is:

http://www.art-of-energetics.com/New/chang_interview.htm


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 28, 2006)

charyuop said:
			
		

> I thought that Yang Style was still good for self defense, also because looking at the applications I have here at home it look very effective.
> 
> Anyway Xue Sheng (don't mean to argue hee hee, just reporting the words in the interview...I tried to find it, but don't recall the site) they asked that master the same question. How is it that Chengfu style is not good for self defense and Chengfu himself was considered one of the best in the art of self defense. The answer was "remember that Chengfu started with the deep knowledge of the traditional style".
> 
> ...


 
I don't think your arguing, don't worry about it.

You have to understand that there are a lot of politics in Yang style Tai Chi. Notice the master is a student of Yang Shaohou not Yang Chengfu. There is supposedly a bit of disagreement there between the students of Yang Shaohou and the current Yang Family. It is alleged that when Yang Shaohou died that the Yang family insisted they go train with Yang Chengfu. Many were already quite accomplished and did not go nor in all honesty did not need to go. But their branch of Yang Style may not recognize by the current people in charge.

There is no question that Old Yang was more difficult and likely better for fighting. But Yang Chengfu had many students that learned his style of Yang that were accomplished fighters. My Sifu is very good at the martial arts side, although he no longer teachers it, but that&#8217;s another story. My teacher is a student of Tung Ying Cheih who was also very good at martial arts and Sifu Tung was a student of Yang Chengfu. 

Also I have recently come across a living student of Yang Chengfu and his form is slightly different than many Yang style forms you see today. He claims that many have changed it since his teacher taught it to him. He is also very good at the Martial Arts side of Tai Chi. 

Now that I have said all that I would also like to say I would absolutely love to find a student of Yang Shaohou that would teach me that branch of Yang Style. To me that is just closer to the root and knowing the root is always a good thing.


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## charyuop (Jul 28, 2006)

Thank you, this is something that I like too. Knowing the backgroung of the masters and the roots of the Art I think it is something that helps you understanding the "whole" of Tai Chi.
As per changing the forms I guess every master with time trys to put something that he/she thinks can improve the form or just a slight variation to more agree to the own body limits. Master Gilman (whose video I am using) said that he changed a littlte "white snake puts out tongue" according to what his sifu Choy Kam-man had tought him (he also shows the original version tho). Where if I well undestood in the original form the purpose was hitting the eyes in this variation the left hand delivers a hit to the face. So as you see in the form there might just be a slight variation of the position of the hand, but I am sure that many masters try to "put something of them in it".
Just my 2 cent of a beginner.


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## kimballmaster (Jul 28, 2006)

Holy Moly,    what a treasure trove of cool information and stuff. This is a great site. ( I just opened some of those links )
 I say, there are four levels in Tai-Chi-Chuan.
I say the lowest level is fighting, It is also the first level. The level where  we pay close attention to geometry and physics and less on the metaphysical.
 At this level we  become aware that form follows  function. That means simply that what a posture does is more important than what it looks like.
 I say it is the lowest level when I think of my 15 year old son Ghandi and imagine telling him I beat someone up. That's pretty crude. 
 I say it is also the first level becouse it is an introduction to this incredeble manifestation of of our own potential as luminous beings. 
 The martial application is a historical record of the evelution of the Toa in human development writen in movement and close physical assoseation and manipulation. The study of pugilism directly reflects on healing.  Most of the Tui-Na massage stuff is diagnosticly effective in shutting down an opponents electical system. The same can be said for the other modalities such as acupuncture and even geomancy.( The first thing you lean in the study if needle insertion are the fobiden points). I remember an old Japanese film I saw at Francis Parker school's weekly Japanese cinima where the evil assasin killed his victoms with acupunture needle. And of course we all remember "Zato Ichi".


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 28, 2006)

kimballmaster said:
			
		

> The study of pugilism directly reflects on healing. Most of the Tui-Na massage stuff is diagnosticly effective in shutting down an opponents electical system. The same can be said for the other modalities such as acupuncture and even geomancy.( The first thing you lean in the study if needle insertion are the fobiden points). I remember an old Japanese film I saw at Francis Parker school's weekly Japanese cinima where the evil assasin killed his victoms with acupunture needle. And of course we all remember "Zato Ichi".


 
I have it from a very reliable source that although there are points that are dangerous and some can be fatal; they never ever work like they do in the movies. 

And if you want more web site stuff on Tai Chi I use this site a lot
http://www.answers.com/topic/yang-style-tai-chi-chuan

http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-chinese-martial-arts

Type in the subject in the search field and it can give you a lot of info


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 28, 2006)

charyuop said:
			
		

> Thank you, this is something that I like too. Knowing the backgroung of the masters and the roots of the Art I think it is something that helps you understanding the "whole" of Tai Chi.
> As per changing the forms I guess every master with time trys to put something that he/she thinks can improve the form or just a slight variation to more agree to the own body limits. Master Gilman (whose video I am using) said that he changed a littlte "white snake puts out tongue" according to what his sifu Choy Kam-man had tought him (he also shows the original version tho). Where if I well undestood in the original form the purpose was hitting the eyes in this variation the left hand delivers a hit to the face. So as you see in the form there might just be a slight variation of the position of the hand, but I am sure that many masters try to "put something of them in it".
> Just my 2 cent of a beginner.


 
Almost every form in Tai Chi and CMA for that matter has multiple applications. 

But you are right once a person learns and then begins to teach they change it a bit. My teacher's teacher Sifu Tung changed it a bit from Yang Chengfu and my teacher changed it a bit from Sifu Tung. Sometimes these changes are good, sometimes bad, sometimes make no difference.


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