# I joined Black Belt Club



## Lynne (Jul 18, 2007)

I know many have a bad taste in their mouth about Black Belt Clubs (BBC) for various reasons.

I had a one-year contract.  BBC extends my contract another 3 years.  My tuition is locked in.  I already have a good deal as my tuition is about 60% less than my daughter's (additional family member deal).  If I move or have a medical condition that prohibits training, the contract is void.

Our school is not a McDojang.  It is possible to acquire a Black Belt in 3-1/2 - 4 years with a lot of hard work in our school...not one year; I've heard the stories about schools cranking out black belts in a year.  I don't know if that's true.  Hope not.

If I pass all of my spotlights, midterms and tests, I will be at 6th gup, first level of green belt in our school, in a little less than a year's time from my enrollment (approximately 10 months - 2 months at white belt; 2 months at yellow belt; 6 months at orange belt).  It is not a fast course.  And people do fail their spotlights, midterms, and tests.

In our school, BBC is not an "elite" club within the school.  I don't think that the philosophy of Moo Duk Kwan would support "elitism." 

There are perks though.  One can train as often as they like.  That's what I am after, training three times a week versus two.  BBC is the cheapest way to do that and since I plan on getting my black belt, why not?  I love training.  And I can use the physical exercise.

Other perks are the activities and events held during BBC week.  I'm interested in learning the higher forms, the Chil-Sung forms.  I could even complete and do a Chil-Sung form versus a form at my current level if I choose to compete.

Eh...we learn shoulder rolls, somersaults, barrel rolls, and one-hand stands, etc.  I'll probably stink at those but it will be fun to try. To be honest, I'm not so sure I'm interested in the acrobatics.  I have an inner ear problem and a mental block to go with it.

There are special clinics such as board-breaking clinics.  Also, BBC members are allowed to attend sparring-only classes.

Does that sound like a bad deal to you?


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## Kacey (Jul 18, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Does that sound like a bad deal to you?



If you're happy with it, then it's not a bad deal _for you_.  However, that doesn't mean it's a good deal for everyone, and honestly, it's not going to be the right choice for everyone.  Realistically, I understand that the dojang has to make money, and I don't have a problem with them charging extra for extra training, but I have a problem with any system that prevents people from additional experiences _unless_ they sign a contract.


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## Lynne (Jul 18, 2007)

Kacey said:


> If you're happy with it, then it's not a bad deal _for you_. However, that doesn't mean it's a good deal for everyone, and honestly, it's not going to be the right choice for everyone. Realistically, I understand that the dojang has to make money, and I don't have a problem with them charging extra for extra training, but I have a problem with any system that prevents people from additional experiences _unless_ they sign a contract.


Well, I agree with you on the additional experiences part. Also, I'm not too keen on contracts but that's the way of our school.

 To be honest, I think that BBC might take away from regular class training.  What I mean is one week out of the month, one might be practicing shoulder rolls and the 7-Star Chinese form but maybe they need to be practicing their wrist grips and one-step hand combinations, forms, etc.  Then again, maybe that's where the dedication to training comes in.  But then I am not the master, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about.


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## DavidCC (Jul 18, 2007)

At our school the BBC doesn't get you into any activities that anyone else can't get into (with one exception - at our Anniversary each year the BBC members arrive 30 minutes early for a Champagne Reception).

But it does get you:
- access to any and all scheduled classes (regular contrct is 2 hours per week, with BBC you can get 6)
- no more monthly payments
- up to 4 hours of FREE private lessons per month
- a unique patch

So for a one-time rate you get free training until you reach Black.  And you can get a lot more training each month.  It costs about the equivalent of 40 months regualr tuition, but if you factor in the increased hours per week and the free privates, it seems to be a very economical way to get to Black.


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## arnisador (Jul 18, 2007)

Kacey said:


> If you're happy with it, then it's not a bad deal _for you_.  However, that doesn't mean it's a good deal for everyone, and honestly, it's not going to be the right choice for everyone.  Realistically, I understand that the dojang has to make money, and I don't have a problem with them charging extra for extra training, but I have a problem with any system that prevents people from additional experiences _unless_ they sign a contract.



This is how I feel. If you made a good deal for you, that's great! But, what you see as extra for you, I see as others possibly being deprived of the full art (e.g., "learning the higher forms" or "board-breaking clinics").

I'm fine with charging more, or differently, for those willing to pay it. But, I'm still so-so on the idea of a BBC in most cases.

I visited a BJJ school where the BBC just gave extra supervised grappling time. That made sense to me (similar to like what *DavidCC *describes). At others it gives seminars unrelated to the main art. I'm OK with that. As long as it's more of the same or outside the main art, I see no issues.


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## terryl965 (Jul 18, 2007)

Lynn if you are happy so be it, for me no way. I own a school and would never ask anybody join a BBC, at my school we all strive to be a BB one day and I keep my students at the same rate month to month for as long as they train. I have some that pay 25.00 because when they started with me that was the going rate. No need to charge more for folks that stay with you year after year.


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## Lynne (Jul 18, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> At our school the BBC doesn't get you into any activities that anyone else can't get into (with one exception - at our Anniversary each year the BBC members arrive 30 minutes early for a Champagne Reception).
> 
> But it does get you:
> - access to any and all scheduled classes (regular contrct is 2 hours per week, with BBC you can get 6)
> ...


 
Wow - your BBC sounds like a very good deal.

For my daughter, I still have to pay the monthly fees.  Then, there are the registration fees for each year.  We get a patch, too - not sure that's a benefit, lol.


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## Lynne (Jul 18, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> At our school the BBC doesn't get you into any activities that anyone else can't get into (with one exception - at our Anniversary each year the BBC members arrive 30 minutes early for a Champagne Reception).
> 
> But it does get you:
> - access to any and all scheduled classes (regular contrct is 2 hours per week, with BBC you can get 6)
> ...


Wow - your BBC is definitely a good deal.

I still have to pay monthly tuition for my daughter and all of the yearly registration fees.  It is expensive...

Double post - sorry about that.  My computer is running slow.


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## Lynne (Jul 18, 2007)

arnisador said:


> This is how I feel. If you made a good deal for you, that's great! But, what you see as extra for you, I see as others possibly being deprived of the full art (e.g., "learning the higher forms" or "board-breaking clinics").
> 
> I'm fine with charging more, or differently, for those willing to pay it. But, I'm still so-so on the idea of a BBC in most cases.
> 
> I visited a BJJ school where the BBC just gave extra supervised grappling time. That made sense to me (similar to like what *DavidCC *describes). At others it gives seminars unrelated to the main art. I'm OK with that. As long as it's more of the same or outside the main art, I see no issues.


I was disappointed that I couldn't attend the boark-breaking clinic.  After all, to pass the test for 6th gup, we have to break a board.  Board-breaking would benefit anyone, including white belts.  You learn balance, control, aiming.  It's nice for confidence boosting as well.  I don't know if board-breaking clinics are offered to the entire school at any point.

As far as the higher forms, sure, a forms seminar would be great for the entire school.

We are having a stave workshop for the entire school and it's free.  We are also having an Olympic-style sparring clinic for our school which is free.  So, our owner does offer free seminars and clinics.

Once again, though, when BBC members are practicing these techniques during BBC week, they aren't working on their regular class stuff.  So, I think there's a tradeoff that some people aren't aware of.  One week of irregular class work could make the difference in passing/failing a spotlight, I think.

Mainly, for myself, I'm interested in the extra training.  If I have to pay for it w/o the benefit of BBC, I believe it would be $30 more a month.  Yes, the instruction is worth it but I just can't afford it.


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## Lynne (Jul 18, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Lynn if you are happy so be it, for me no way. I own a school and would never ask anybody join a BBC, at my school we all strive to be a BB one day and I keep my students at the same rate month to month for as long as they train. I have some that pay 25.00 because when they started with me that was the going rate. No need to charge more for folks that stay with you year after year.


I like your philosophy


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## Empty Hands (Jul 18, 2007)

A four year contract?!  Jesus, I thought the cell phone company lock-ins were bad...


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## Sapper6 (Jul 18, 2007)

Empty Hands said:


> A four year contract?! Jesus, I thought the cell phone company lock-ins were bad...


 
it's only bad if it's bad for the person involved.  what's good for you just might be piss poor for someone else.  

to each his own.

good luck with the program Lynne.

cheers!


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## foggymorning162 (Jul 18, 2007)

Our school charges an extra monthly fee for the BBC and you get an extra TSD class per week, 1 Jujitsu class a week and one weapons class a week plus 5% discount on special orders (gear and stuff) and occasional seminars (non TSD) We also don't do contracts and are locked in at the rate we paid when we started. Still it's not for everyone as long as your happy with it thats all that matters.


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## Lynne (Jul 18, 2007)

foggymorning162 said:


> Our school charges an extra monthly fee for the BBC and you get an extra TSD class per week, 1 Jujitsu class a week and one weapons class a week plus 5% discount on special orders (gear and stuff) and occasional seminars (non TSD) We also don't do contracts and are locked in at the rate we paid when we started. Still it's not for everyone as long as your happy with it thats all that matters.


We get a 10% discount on merchandise - I forgot about that.  There isn't a fee for BBC though.  I don't think we get any $$ off of seminars though (probably because we are paying instructors outside of the school).

It's good you are locked in at the rate you started.  It's nice you get an extra TSD class per week.

I could go 6 days of the week and twice some days if I were dumb enough.

Do you have a registration fee? Not asking how much just if you do.


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## Lynne (Jul 18, 2007)

Sapper6 said:


> it's only bad if it's bad for the person involved. what's good for you just might be piss poor for someone else.
> 
> to each his own.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Sapper.  It is good for me, more training!  And it doesn't cost anything extra. It does mean a commitment to get my black belt.


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## Lynne (Jul 18, 2007)

Empty Hands said:


> A four year contract?! Jesus, I thought the cell phone company lock-ins were bad...


Some people really frown upon the contracts.

Excluding the BBC, people can sign up for either a 6 month program or a one-year program, attending once a week or twice a week.   I signed a one-year contract initially. The six month program is not a smart way to go.  If you really love it and want to continue, you'd have to pay another registration fee for the next 6 months.  Paying two six-month registration fees is $XXX.XX more than paying a 12-month registration fee.  Then there is the monthly tuition.

I plan to get my black belt, so it's a deal for me.

I don't know if they have a trial program where you wouldn't have to pay the registration fees and all.  I do know they will let people take several free trial classes though.

It is a business.  The owner is running two sites and he has instructors to pay.  The facility I train in is 20,000 square feet.  We have two Dojangs, one is 4500 square feet, the other is 5000 square feet.   There is also a fitness center.  Heating, air conditioning, taxes...other overhead.


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## Empty Hands (Jul 18, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Some people really frown upon the contracts.



I understand all the rationales, and the reason why you have chosen your course given the realities of the school you train at.  My point is, that is not a consumer-friendly way to structure things where a 4 year contract is involved.  Also, the class numbers seem pretty low for the standard contract - 1 or 2 a week.  At my school, although you can get a discount by purchasing tuition in advance, the number of classes is unlimited.  Indeed, the head of my school considers 2 classes a week a _minimum _number for decent learning.  It seems to me like you guys are getting screwed.  There should be other good schools in the area that can offer you what you want without the inflexibility.

After all, things change unexpectedly.  After 2 years, you might decide that you would like to try another art - too bad.  Your instructor could change the way things are done at your school so it is no longer a good experience - too bad.  A bunch of jerks could sign up and make every class miserable - too bad.  Life changes unexpectedly, and a four year lock-in has the potential to screw you over badly, no matter how good things are now.

That said, best of luck of course - I hope everything turns out perfectly for you over the next 4 years.


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## Lynne (Jul 18, 2007)

Empty Hands said:


> I understand all the rationales, and the reason why you have chosen your course given the realities of the school you train at. My point is, that is not a consumer-friendly way to structure things where a 4 year contract is involved. Also, the class numbers seem pretty low for the standard contract - 1 or 2 a week. At my school, although you can get a discount by purchasing tuition in advance, the number of classes is unlimited. Indeed, the head of my school considers 2 classes a week a _minimum _number for decent learning. It seems to me like you guys are getting screwed. There should be other good schools in the area that can offer you what you want without the inflexibility.
> 
> After all, things change unexpectedly. After 2 years, you might decide that you would like to try another art - too bad. Your instructor could change the way things are done at your school so it is no longer a good experience - too bad. A bunch of jerks could sign up and make every class miserable - too bad. Life changes unexpectedly, and a four year lock-in has the potential to screw you over badly, no matter how good things are now.
> 
> That said, best of luck of course - I hope everything turns out perfectly for you over the next 4 years.


Oh, I wish we did have unlimited classes.  I think one stinks, two is much better, and three is great.  Three+ is not an option unless one joins BBC or pays an extra amount monthly.

I do agree that long contracts are not consumer-friendly.  I think a lot of people are turned off by contracts and walk out the door.

Good grief, it would be a bad turn of events if any of the scenarios take place that you spoke of.

However, I believe our Master to be an honorable man.  I know he isn't going to put up with any bull such as unruly/dangerous people.

I'm not an experienced martial artist, so I don't know how the teaching scenario might change.  Good point though!  Something to think about.

It things go south, I am not afraid to say something...without pointing fingers.

I'm placing my faith in the philosophy of Moo Duk Kwan which some might consider naieve.


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## Carol (Jul 18, 2007)

All contracts can be broken.  Some contracts are just more tedious to break than others


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## Lynne (Jul 18, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> All contracts can be broken. Some contracts are just more tedious to break than others


If something were amiss with the school, an issue I felt was a moral or integrity issue, then I would break my contract with a clear conscience because I would feel the school had been dishonest or disingenuous.


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## Empty Hands (Jul 18, 2007)

Best of luck Lynne.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jul 19, 2007)

My contract with C.S. Kim Karate (1-year, which I renew every year) means that I can train at any C.S. Kim dojang, as often as I want (I try for 4 classes every week). We do have a "Black Belt Club," called the Yu Jung Dan, or something like that, which I keep meaning to join but haven't gotten around to yet. They have special functions - picnics and outings - for members. Doesn't really interest me. I just need the training.

Whatever works for you, though. So long as you're getting the training you want, go for it.


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## agemechanic03 (Jul 19, 2007)

I just want to say thank God that I am in Korea! I am very greatful for the class that I am in here. My instructor is Korean has been training for 40yrs in Tang Soo Do, Hapkido, and others. I am also happy about the fact that there are NO contracts. I can get out whenever I want, WHICH WILL NEVER HAPPEN. He holds class 10x's a week, M-F twice a day. Got to remember that I'm on a military installation, and we can attend every class if we wanted to and not have to pay extra. I attend class every single day (5x's a week) and everyone only pays $50 a month. I am dreading going back to the states. I have grown up in MA doing different styles but had to get out do to parental finances. But I mainly love the fact that I can train every single day instead of only 1-3 times a week. Even if I had to pay more, I would. I guess what I am trying to say is that I hate the fact that most schools I've been to or seen only allow you to come to class a certain amount of days per week or even per month or require you to sign a LONG term contract just to attend 1 or 2 extra classes. That's just my rants and raves about contracts. Like I said, depending on the situation, I would prolly do it to, but I try to steer from them as much as possible. I do, however, wish you the best of luck!!!!!

Tang Soo!


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> My contract with C.S. Kim Karate (1-year, which I renew every year) means that I can train at any C.S. Kim dojang, as often as I want (I try for 4 classes every week). We do have a "Black Belt Club," called the Yu Jung Dan, or something like that, which I keep meaning to join but haven't gotten around to yet. They have special functions - picnics and outings - for members. Doesn't really interest me. I just need the training.
> 
> Whatever works for you, though. So long as you're getting the training you want, go for it.


 
You are lucky.  I joined BBC so I could get the extra training days.

Picnics and outings wouldn't interest me.  Pffft.


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## Lynne (Jul 19, 2007)

agemechanic03 said:


> I just want to say thank God that I am in Korea! I am very greatful for the class that I am in here. My instructor is Korean has been training for 40yrs in Tang Soo Do, Hapkido, and others. I am also happy about the fact that there are NO contracts. I can get out whenever I want, WHICH WILL NEVER HAPPEN. He holds class 10x's a week, M-F twice a day. Got to remember that I'm on a military installation, and we can attend every class if we wanted to and not have to pay extra. I attend class every single day (5x's a week) and everyone only pays $50 a month. I am dreading going back to the states. I have grown up in MA doing different styles but had to get out do to parental finances. But I mainly love the fact that I can train every single day instead of only 1-3 times a week. Even if I had to pay more, I would. I guess what I am trying to say is that I hate the fact that most schools I've been to or seen only allow you to come to class a certain amount of days per week or even per month or require you to sign a LONG term contract just to attend 1 or 2 extra classes. That's just my rants and raves about contracts. Like I said, depending on the situation, I would prolly do it to, but I try to steer from them as much as possible. I do, however, wish you the best of luck!!!!!
> 
> Tang Soo!


I don't like the limit on days either because if we are committed we want and need those extra days.

Maybe you'll find a school like JT's where you can take unlimited classes.  They do exist.

Here is an example of how one schools works.  Registration fees can be a bugger - not sure all schools have them.  But $150 every six months or $195 (12 months is definitely the deal) for 12 months, + $65.00 a month tuition is not unusual.  $65.00 would cover two classes a week.  One class a week would be $32.50 a month.  Maybe you will be able to get good instruction for less $$.  Those registration fees are paid each year or every six months while training.  Some schools charge 50 - 60% less for additional family members.  Testing fees at my school are $25.  I don't know what Dan fees are.  Also, at orange belt level we pay $35 to join the ATA in addition to our test fee.


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## Jdokan (Jul 20, 2007)

AS others have posted: if you're happy than it is a good thing...Prior to my BB there weren't any of these programs available...the only thing was pay up front 6 mos and get 3 mos free....I took full advantage of this every time I had saved up a little money...made good financial sense to...I knew I wasn't going anywhere...the school had a very strong position so I wasn't worried about them taking the money and run type thing.....
Go for it!!!


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 20, 2007)

Lynne said:


> I know many have a bad taste in their mouth about Black Belt Clubs (BBC) for various reasons.
> 
> I had a one-year contract. BBC extends my contract another 3 years. My tuition is locked in. I already have a good deal as my tuition is about 60% less than my daughter's (additional family member deal). If I move or have a medical condition that prohibits training, the contract is void.
> 
> ...


I have mixed feelings about this type of billing; however, if you are a serious martial artist, and I have read your posts indicating such, you can just look at it as a commitment to training. On the other hand if you are still dabbling and are thinking about joining a nice kenpo school)) instead, the Black Belt club is not for you. It sounds as if your school is a member of United Proffessionals. They are simply a billing agency, they don't hold your contract in Florida like you are told, but they do offer your instructor excellent advice on keeping the school open and making sure the students pay their bill. Black Belt clubs help keep schools open.
Sean


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jul 20, 2007)

Lynne said:


> I don't like the limit on days either because if we are committed we want and need those extra days.
> 
> Maybe you'll find a school like JT's where you can take unlimited classes.  They do exist.
> 
> Here is an example of how one schools works.  Registration fees can be a bugger - not sure all schools have them.  But $150 every six months or $195 (12 months is definitely the deal) for 12 months, + $65.00 a month tuition is not unusual.  $65.00 would cover two classes a week.  One class a week would be $32.50 a month.  Maybe you will be able to get good instruction for less $$.  Those registration fees are paid each year or every six months while training.  Some schools charge 50 - 60% less for additional family members.  Testing fees at my school are $25.  I don't know what Dan fees are.  Also, at orange belt level we pay $35 to join the ATA in addition to our test fee.




I pay $75 per month for my contract, but there are family discounts, even if it's just one extra person. Just for an example.


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## Lynne (Jul 20, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> I have mixed feelings about this type of billing; however, if you are a serious martial artist, and I have read your posts indicating such, you can just look at it as a commitment to training. On the other hand if you are still dabbling and are thinking about joining a nice kenpo school)) instead, the Black Belt club is not for you. It sounds as if your school is a member of United Proffessionals. They are simply a billing agency, they don't hold your contract in Florida like you are told, but they do offer your instructor excellent advice on keeping the school open and making sure the students pay their bill. Black Belt clubs help keep schools open.
> Sean


Exactly - I'm committed to training so it's a deal for me.  I really love what I'm doing and have no desire to dabble in any other training.  I admit MA overall is fascinating.  If there were 72 hours in a day....

It is nice that some schools offer more than two classes a week and don't require contracts.


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## Lynne (Jul 20, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> I pay $75 per month for my contract, but there are family discounts, even if it's just one extra person. Just for an example.


That sounds like a very good deal since you can take unlimited classes.  The family discount thing is great.  My tuition is about 60% less than my daughter's tuition.  Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to afford lessons.


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