# Defending against multiple dogs



## someguy (Mar 23, 2004)

OK so we have protecting yourself against multiple people and protecting yourself from dogs so how about protecting youself from multiple dogs.
I actually have a reason to ask this as I saw a pack of dogs today not far from me and they didn't have an owner so I had to ask my self what I would do.  I came to the conlusion that I'd be in trouble.  It would not be easy to fight as I'm not sure how I'd use muuch of anything against 2+ dogs other than kicks.
So how would you do it? (I don't carry a wepon and there isn't much I could have grabed for)


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## Gary Crawford (Mar 23, 2004)

carry some raw meat!


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## loki09789 (Mar 23, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> OK so we have protecting yourself against multiple people and protecting yourself from dogs so how about protecting youself from multiple dogs.
> I actually have a reason to ask this as I saw a pack of dogs today not far from me and they didn't have an owner so I had to ask my self what I would do.  I came to the conlusion that I'd be in trouble.  It would not be easy to fight as I'm not sure how I'd use muuch of anything against 2+ dogs other than kicks.
> So how would you do it? (I don't carry a wepon and there isn't much I could have grabed for)



Pepper Spray (as it was originally marketted for) and constant motion!  A little praying wouldn't hurt!


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 23, 2004)

Jump in and start pounding. You'll get bit, just the same way you can expect a nip or 2 against a knife. But dogs aren't stupid. Punch them in the head soundly a couple of times, or kick them in the gut or chops, and they'll identify you as not-so-easy prey, and move on.  Generally, they don't want to have to work that hard for their meals


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## Tony (Mar 24, 2004)

Dogs are tricky to defence against because they use mostly their teeth to attack with. And some Dogs because they are trained for security purposes or even fighting other dogs are extremely vicious. I have found in my experience runnin away always helps. I have a phobia about dogs and can hardly stroke a poodle let a lone anything larger.


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## someguy (Mar 24, 2004)

I don't think I can out run a dog.  I run slooooooooooooow.
Pepper spray is something I'd have to carry around constantly to have it do me any good although it would help. I'd probably forget it the day I needed it.
AS for jumping right on in what type of teqs would I use is what I have asked myself.  I do a system of wing chun which means I have focused more on punching that kicking(not allways the case maybe but for me it is).  But how would a dog pack tend to attack?  Anybody here know?


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## TonyM. (Mar 24, 2004)

Ya gotta make the alpha dog yelp, then the others will loose confidence. Teeth are scary but as long as the dogs mouths are open they're not tearing flesh. To open their mouths you have to grab the throat or hit the stomach.
A number of years ago in Portland Maine I was vacationing with my wife. We had brought our female chow along. The wife was in a shop when the dog and I crossed the road to meet her, fourteen stray dogs came around the corner and attacked my dog and myself. I was grabbing fur and kicking stomachs. Took about a minute and a half to pull and throw all the dogs off my dog. Than goodness chows have very thick fur as although she was soaked with saliva there were very few puntures. I amazingly did not get bit, which I was glad for as I've been bitten once before badly. I think I surprised them as I was quiet and showed no emotion as I was picking them up and throwing them, kicking them and grabbing fur. About the time I got them to back off the luny homeless person that lived on the docks and cared for over forty strays came around the corner with twelve more dogs and a bucket of fish bait. He scolded the dogs for being impolite and left. I heard later he ran for mayor and nearly won. Fortunately I don't think I seriously hurt any of the dogs.


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## rompida (Mar 24, 2004)

I can speak of some personal experience here, although not on mutliple dogs.  I was attacked by a pitbull-rottweiler mix a few years ago.  I was completely caught off guard.  

I went to a girl's house to borrow her notes from our psych class.  When I knocked, she cracked the door and said "hi, just hold on a minute".  Meanwhile, the dog had shoved his nose in the crack, so in order to get him back, she had to open the door slightly more.  He didn't back up though.  Instead, he muscled his way past her and lunged at my neck.  I instinctively threw my arms in front of my face and he got ahold of my elbow instead.  She grabbed the dog's hindquarters and pulled him back, but again he got free and came at me.  This time I was a little more ready, so roundhouse kicked him in the head as hard as I could.  The dog shook this off and came for more, this time getting a bite on my forearm.  She finally got the dog off of me and managed to get him in the house.  This dog took quite a chunk of skin and flesh off of my elbow.   Bottom line.........don't underestimate the dog to run away from you.

Against multiple dogs, if they want you - there is a good chance they can get you.  Hope you have pepper spray.  My father has a 200 acre farm in SC.  There are wild packs of dogs that have been abandoned and formed packs.  They have taken down chickens, goats, beavers, and anything else (including other wild dogs) that they could find.  They've been conditioned to run from us now (we've shot and killed a few) but I wouldn't want to run up on them without a shotgun.  


p.s.  Anyone still interested in the dog story........ I was the 4th person this dog had bitten.  The second person had to have facial reconstructive surgery.  Makes you wonder how this freakin dog was still alive to bite me.  I was the last.  He was put down shortly after by order of Animal Control.


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## mandirigma (Mar 24, 2004)

Two dog incidents posted from the past year.  Dogs can be TOUGH!
#1:
"Dog Attack: 
"A colleague suffered a serious dog attack last week. He was a member of a bond enforcement team (bounty hunters) attempting to arrest a local bail jumper. He and two metro police officers went to the back of the house where the bail jumper was living to cut off escape routes, while the rest of the team went to the front door. As he moved around the house to the rear, the suspect opened the back door and released a large pit bull. The dog immediately charged across the back porch and, without hesitation, leapt directly at my colleague's throat! 
The dog struck his raised left arm, fell to the ground, bounced back up, and, once more, lunged at his throat. He punched the dog in the head, knocking it back to the ground. He punched him down several more times, as he moved backward. Finally, the dog settled for a less advantageous line of attack and firmly attached his jaws to his right shin. He finally drew his SIG220 (230gr Speer Gold Dot), and shot the dog in the neck and shoulders four times in rapid succession. The dog let go, backed off, and then came at him again! My colleague, using his sights, immediately fired two more shots, this time into the head of the charging animal. The dog, struck in the head and face by both rounds, staggered and fell, DRT. 
All six of the rounds found their mark. Five bullets stopped, fully expanded, in the dog. One, fully expanded, went through and through. The one that went through and through, exited (mostly spent) and then struck my colleague's right leg just above the in the ankle. The wound was not serious but did require surgery. 
Metro officers who witnessed the event were amazed at the speed of my colleague's reaction. The first four rounds were fired so fast, witnesses all thought there were only two!" 
Lesson: Most dog attacks end only when there is a fatality, yours or the dog's! It is no time for half measures. When tangled up with a dog, it is not hard to imagine getting a body part on line with a potential bullet exit point. No matter what happens, you have to keep fighting. As my friend and fellow instructor, Keith Jones, is fond of saying, "Pistol fights resemble fist fights much more than they do tactical, nuclear attacks!" When fighting in an emergency we must: 
1) Distract our enemy's focus
2) Disrupt his plan
3) Disable his body
4) Destroy his will to fight 
In the case of a pit bull, point four is accomplished only with the death of the animal."


#2:
"8 Sept 02

Shooting incident details from a friend on the East Coast:

"Our sheriff's department had its first shooting last week. It involved a dog, not a person. 

Two of our deputies were executing an order of eviction on a residence. When no one responded to their knocks and calls, they had a local locksmith open the door. As the deputies entered the house, a 160 lb German Shepherd (which had remained silent) ran at the first deputy and leaped at his throat. Our deputy yanked his head aside in the nick of time. The dog's teeth closed on his shoulder instead of his throat. Our deputy performed a classic &#8216;shove/shoot' (which we train). He drew his G22 and fired a total of five shots (40 S&W 180-grain Gold Dot). All five bullets struck the dog's torso. None of the bullets exited the dog. All transverse penetrated and stopped, fully expanded, just under the dog's skin on the opposite side of its body. Because of his position, the second deputy was unable to shoot. 

After being struck, the dog let go and ran outside, where he promptly attacked the locksmith's car! After running another hundred meters, the dog finally collapsed. He was DRT.

Our deputy's injuries were not serious, and, fully recovered, he is back on duty."

Lessons: Even the best pistols and ammunition provide only marginal protection against a determined attack by a person or an animal. We must all be fully prepared to strike the target multiple times in rapid succession when required.

In an emergency, you will do what you've been trained to do. If you haven't been trained at all, you'll likely panic and subsequently die in amazement."


Scenarios like this also show how valuable a good dog on your side can be!

Have a great day!
 :asian:


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## someguy (Mar 25, 2004)

So basiclly if I have to deal with multiple dogs either get lucky show no mercy and maybe win or lose and die.  Fun fun fun.
Now what tecniques would a person use?
Grappleing is probably a bad idea I'd guess.


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## kenpo12 (Mar 25, 2004)

Oh My God! this again?!  If you get attacked by multiple dogs you better just drop into a fetal position and hope they get bored.   

Loki - Pepper spray only works on humans, you need OC spray for animals.  But if you have a "pack" of dogs attacking you the pack mentality will take over and the discomfort of the spray will more than likely not stop them.

TonyM.- Sorry but it's kinda hard to figure out which dog is the alpha while you're trying to survive.  In the case of the 14 dogs that attacked you and your chow, it doesn't sound like they were very committed because if they were I don't think you'd be worrying about if other dogs were injured.

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka - I know you aren't this ignorant, are you?  A punch to the head of dog? Please!  You will get maimed, if you're lucky, trying that.

mandirigma -Thank you for those stories.  Like I always try to tell people, if you don't have a weapon against a dog and the dog is determined, alot of luck.  Even a stick or pepper spray will only stop a half hearted attack, but if the dog is committed you have a serious problem.


If you see a pack of dogs; get up in a tree, into your house, into your car, grab a big stick and if none of those are an option and they do attack you, cover your vitals curl up in a fetal position and hope they get bored.


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## RHD (Mar 27, 2004)

Multiple dogs?  Do you have a living will?  How about life insurance?  Against one dog I would say use your voice first, and a basebal bat second.  Multiple dogs...you're screwed.
Mike


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## RCastillo (Mar 27, 2004)

Bring Animal Control with you. How can be any different that having Master Frank Trejo with you? :rofl:


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## Buran (Mar 30, 2004)

We used to have a BIG, SWEET German Shepherd; I tried my wrestling moves on him. There's a kind of half-nelson/bear hug thing that worked on him. Later I met a friend that had a pit. That trick didn't work - I became convinced that animal was uncontrollable. They're just different.

What would I do? Probably run while taking off my belt, then whacking it several times with the buckle. You'd see me take a wall or tree if I had time...?


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## Shotochem (Apr 2, 2004)

Against multiple beasties escape is the best course of action.  If a single one attacks and you have no weapontry available.  JAM you fist right down its throat and keep jamming it down until it chokes to death.  I know it sounds quite brutal and disgusting.  This technique was told to me by an old disabled vietnan vet friend.  :ak47:


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## kenpo12 (Apr 2, 2004)

Shotochem said:
			
		

> Against multiple beasties escape is the best course of action.  If a single one attacks and you have no weapontry available.  JAM you fist right down its throat and keep jamming it down until it chokes to death.  I know it sounds quite brutal and disgusting.  This technique was told to me by an old disabled vietnan vet friend.  :ak47:



Won't work.  You'll be pulling back a bloody stump if you try that, especially against a determined dog.


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## clapping_tiger (Apr 2, 2004)

Kind of interesting thread, not really a common type of threat, but anything can happen. I think it would all be in the your mindset. If you freak out, which most of us would do, you still would have to realize that in a case like this it is your life or that of the dog/dogs. Animals have no remorse, or emotion like that, that would prevent them from not killing you. So no matter if it was one dog or multiple dogs, if you don't have pepper spray, or some other type of weapon you are going to have to hurt them bad, or kill them. You also have to realize that you are going to get pretty hurt yourself, but no matter what, you are going to be the one to come out alive. Dogs will always protect their throat, and that is also their main target that they will go for. If you can, try to boot them there as hard as you can. Or grab their throat and hold on for dear life. Whatever you do, DO NOT RUN AWAY. Instead if you can, back away. If you turn tail and run, that triggers the dogs instinct to chase you down, kind of like if they were hunting prey. Turning and running is probably the worst thing you could do in a dog attack situation. You have to establish dominance or the dog will think either you are prey, or you fall below them on their dominance scale.


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## Gaidheal (Apr 13, 2004)

One dog? Kill it. Multiple dogs? Kill one, then the next, the next.. likely get hurt, but it's your best chance. Don't run, as is said above they will chase you down and they are always faster than you, unless it's a tiny dog.. in which case why are you running?  Never hesitate. Once it's defence time, it's dead doggy time. Eyes is useful, just like with people. Crush the trachea if you can ('windpipe'), strikes to it will 'worry' the dog as well, possibly making it back off, probably making it slow down even if it keeps at it. If you get it right you can kick a spot on the ribcage that will always (assuming a minimum but easily achievable level of power) fold the ribcage and kill it within a minute (a minute during which it won't be doing anything but dying). However, I am not sure I can accurately describe where, I could show you, if you know what I mean.

Oh, as is clear, I don't like dogs. But with any animal attack; kill it, it's not a time to be even slightly soft.

John

P.S. Cats rule.

P.P.S. Someone asked "..how will they [a pack] attack?" they will encircle and dash in one at a time until one of them gets a good grip on you then all will "pile in" and take you down. They're just bastardized wolves (who are extremly unlikely to attack humans, by the way).


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## RHD (Apr 13, 2004)

GaidhealEyes is useful said:
			
		

> if [/B] you can ('windpipe'), strikes to it *will* 'worry' the dog as well, *possibly* making it back off, *probably* making it slow down even *if* it keeps at it. *If you get it right * you can kick a spot on the ribcage that will *always* (*assuming* a minimum but easily achievable level of power) fold the ribcage and *kill it within a minute * (a minute during which it won't be doing anything but dying). However, *I am not sure* I can accurately describe where, I could show you, if you know what I mean.
> 
> P.P.S. Someone asked "..how will they [a pack] attack?" they will encircle and dash in one at a time until one of them gets a good grip on you then all will "pile in" and take you down. *They're just bastardized wolves * (who are extremly unlikely to attack humans, by the way).



Oh boy...someone doesn't know jack about dogs...
Sorry man, this ain't going to work.  But hey, I'd love see you try.  On second thought, no I wouldn't.
Mike :roflmao:


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## Marginal (Apr 13, 2004)

Gaidheal said:
			
		

> Never hesitate. Once it's defence time, it's dead doggy time. Eyes is useful, just like with people. Crush the trachea if you can ('windpipe'), strikes to it will 'worry' the dog as well, possibly making it back off, probably making it slow down even if it keeps at it.



What are these dogs doing? Crush their throats, gouge their eyes? Is this while they're lunging at you? That's an amazing demonstration of speed to get at the eyes without getting mauled. (Much less the throat.) Dogs are agile enough to alter the vector on their bites as they come to the point that taking them head on is really stupid. Especially the larger 100lb+ breeds.


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## rompida (Apr 14, 2004)

Gaidheal said:
			
		

> One dog? Kill it. Multiple dogs? Kill one, then the next, the next.. likely get hurt, but it's your best chance. Don't run, as is said above they will chase you down and they are always faster than you, unless it's a tiny dog.. in which case why are you running?  Never hesitate. Once it's defence time, it's dead doggy time. Eyes is useful, just like with people. Crush the trachea if you can ('windpipe'), strikes to it will 'worry' the dog as well, possibly making it back off, probably making it slow down even if it keeps at it. If you get it right you can kick a spot on the ribcage that will always (assuming a minimum but easily achievable level of power) fold the ribcage and kill it within a minute (a minute during which it won't be doing anything but dying)..




Sorry.......but I don't buy in to that.  Ever seen dogs fight?  They are extremely agile and fast, and they don't give a rat's @ss what is happening to them when they are in battle mode.  Go ahead - aim for its eyes.  By the time your fingers are there, you will be poking teeth instead.  Against multiple dogs, especially large breeds - you're pretty well screwed.  Sorry, Gaidhead but it doesn't sound like you know much about this situation.  Where or who gave you this information that you will kill them with a quick kick to the ribs?  The dog will most likely maneuver to absorb or completely dodge the blow anyway.  We as humans are only superior to these animals in that we are smarter (or so we believe).  They move faster than us, hunt better than us, smell better, etc.  So humans have to rely on their brain - that's why we invented swords, knives, guns.  We can't hang with wild animals without them.  Evolution favored our brains over brawn.

-rompida


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## Gaidheal (Apr 14, 2004)

Actually, they do work. I also said you'd get hurt with multiple dogs - for example, sadly the best time to get the dog (as in mostly likely it work before dog decides he doesn't like the direction your fingers are going) is when it has just bitten you and is recovering from the bite, assuming it even wants to let go at that point.

As for the ribcage thing.. sorry, it's something I have actually had a vet agree with. The first person I ever heard it from was a former RSPCA officer, who knew 'just in case' (they try to avoid killing dogs at pretty much all costs, after all!). I've never had to do more than knock a basically over-enthusiastic (big) dog aside and then by body language and tone of voice make it clear that *I'm* 'alpha' and I don't want him any nearer than a foot or two.

However, yes, I've seen them fight a man in 'real' footage a few times and I've seen a pack attack animals on many, many occasions. I know they are faster than humans and they also have a big strength-to-weight ratio if they are anything from 'medium' to 'large'. I think the point was already made that you won't get out unhurt from multiple dogs and may not with a single dog. But you CAN get out and what I wrote can help. Personally I'd hope to have a gun with me, though it's unlikely in the UK.


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## TonyM. (Apr 14, 2004)

Having been there I can tell you that the stomach and ribcage are your best targets.


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## kenpo12 (Apr 14, 2004)

Gaidheal said:
			
		

> Actually, they do work. I also said you'd get hurt with multiple dogs - for example, sadly the best time to get the dog (as in mostly likely it work before dog decides he doesn't like the direction your fingers are going) is when it has just bitten you and is recovering from the bite, assuming it even wants to let go at that point.
> 
> As for the ribcage thing.. sorry, it's something I have actually had a vet agree with. The first person I ever heard it from was a former RSPCA officer, who knew 'just in case' (they try to avoid killing dogs at pretty much all costs, after all!). I've never had to do more than knock a basically over-enthusiastic (big) dog aside and then by body language and tone of voice make it clear that *I'm* 'alpha' and I don't want him any nearer than a foot or two.
> 
> However, yes, I've seen them fight a man in 'real' footage a few times and I've seen a pack attack animals on many, many occasions. I know they are faster than humans and they also have a big strength-to-weight ratio if they are anything from 'medium' to 'large'. I think the point was already made that you won't get out unhurt from multiple dogs and may not with a single dog. But you CAN get out and what I wrote can help. Personally I'd hope to have a gun with me, though it's unlikely in the UK.




Everone knows someone who knows, but all you have to do is look up some simple anatomy online to describe the spot, but since it's not true you can't tell us.  There is no "magic spot".  Biologically the only reason we are higher on the food chain than dogs is because we have the ability to make weapons and tools.  Empty handed against a dog you are pretty much hosed.  Like I've said the fetal postition is the safest thing to do.  The harder you fight against a medium to large sized dog that is intent on winning the worse you are going to get hurt.  
  Now, the only thing that you said that is true is that dogs are unlikely to attack humans, especially unprovoked.   But if you find yourself in their territory and they are committed to hurting you (not just warning you) then unless you are armed you are more than likely going to get hurt or killed, and no magic kicking spot, attempts to shove a hand down their throat will save you.


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## Gaidheal (Apr 14, 2004)

I know me, who knows. I'm not all that interested in looking it up, is all; at the risk of starting a flame itself, I'm going to point out that "Flame-Jutsu" is not an art I'm interested in. I have my own knowledge and experience to back up my position and opinion, others have theirs. The point of sharing is to let others see what we know and see what they have to say and know. I'm not the least bit interested in "Proving myself right" it really doesn't bother me, because at the end of the day I know what to do, for myself and why and I have a fair idea of what I'd look like at the end of such an unfortunate encounter. I do know that with the application of what I know I will improve my chances.

The suggestion that we are higher on the food chain because of tools isn't really true.. it's mostly because we're smarter and not worth the effort even if we were not - too little meat to be really worth the energy. Also, dogs will attack humans, as has been evidenced, but wolves won't and don't. Indeed there is not a single reliable account of a wolve attacking a human and very few accounts of it happening at all. It's an odd European prejudice against wolves, possibly because they can be scary if you live near the woods they typically like to hear them. Dogs on the other hand are often breeding experiments in creating a wolf-like animal that can be made to attack others humans on command. Not too surprising then that sometimes we end up with dogs who attack humans without that command because they decide THEY are the alpha and not any human.

Foetal position with a pack that has decided to tear you will just make sure they don't get hurt doing it. You might be left alive (but horribly mauled) if you are lucky.. you might not. Sure as hell not my choice of action.

By the way, there are no 'magic' spots on any animal, but there are lots of nerve points, structurally weak joints, etc. That is why we do locks, holds, breaks and nerve strikes. At least in my art and any worth its salt for self defence.

John

P.S. I have heard the throat thing too, by the way.

P.P.S.  Having thought about it a little, I think 'the spot' is essentially the sternum/breastbone or at least what we'll call it were it a human.


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## kenpo12 (Apr 14, 2004)

Gaidheal said:
			
		

> I know me, who knows. I'm not all that interested in looking it up, is all; at the risk of starting a flame itself, I'm going to point out that "Flame-Jutsu" is not an art I'm interested in. I have my own knowledge and experience to back up my position and opinion, others have theirs. The point of sharing is to let others see what we know and see what they have to say and know. I'm not the least bit interested in "Proving myself right" it really doesn't bother me, because at the end of the day I know what to do, for myself and why and I have a fair idea of what I'd look like at the end of such an unfortunate encounter. I do know that with the application of what I know I will improve my chances.
> 
> The suggestion that we are higher on the food chain because of tools isn't really true.. it's mostly because we're smarter and not worth the effort even if we were not - too little meat to be really worth the energy. Also, dogs will attack humans, as has been evidenced, but wolves won't and don't. Indeed there is not a single reliable account of a wolve attacking a human and very few accounts of it happening at all. It's an odd European prejudice against wolves, possibly because they can be scary if you live near the woods they typically like to hear them. Dogs on the other hand are often breeding experiments in creating a wolf-like animal that can be made to attack others humans on command. Not too surprising then that sometimes we end up with dogs who attack humans without that command because they decide THEY are the alpha and not any human.
> 
> ...



I'm not trying to flame either, it's just that not only have I had and been around dogs my whole life but studying dogs is on of my hobbies.  I am by no means an expert but I would say I know more than the average joe about dogs.  

  I do agree with you about people breeding dogs to attack but generally there also has to be some training involved to get a dog to attack.  Will dogs attack unprovoked? Yes, that is because of domestication and lack of fear of humans.  That is why wolves don't generally attack humans, because of the fear and lack of contact with humans.  Dogs on the other hand (in general) aren't as afraid of humans.

Yes we are smarter than dogs hence the ability to make weapons, shelter, tools, etc to provide protection against animals.  But when it comes to fighting ability while unarmed, humans are not equiped to handle a dog, at least not one that is determined.  You can try to kick the sturnum but the one detail you're not realizing is that you won't be able to kick or hit that area due to the angle of attack.  You will not be able to hit pressure points on a dog either, don't let anyone fool you, that will not work on an aggressing dog.   I've seen more than one piece of footage of a police dog taking a .45 round and still taking down the shooter until the arresting officer could take control of the suspect.  Don't tell me a kick will work if .45 round won't.

  Don't confuse what I'm saying about a determined dog with what will happen with most strays or dogs that are just trying to "warn" you.  In those cases a nice "pop" to muzzle will usually do the trick. But a determined dog is a whole different story.


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## Gaidheal (Apr 15, 2004)

Ah, ok.  I think perhaps you have identified an area where we agree.  I think a dog that wants to really kill you/restrain (LOE scenario) you, above all else, is going to be mighty difficult to deal with.  Multiple dogs of the same mindset and I don't see a win without firearms and not necessarily even then.  I was going with the "stray dog goes for suddenly appeared human threat" type scenario or "Misguided big dog tries to assert dominance"  for the one on one scenario.  With the multiples I assumed a 'pack' that was running wild (seen it happen in Kuwait) in which case if you put up a fight and hurt, or even kill one or two the rest may back off or even turn on the injured dogs themselves.

I'm interested in how you come to have such a level of expertise, I have to admit.  I have an interest and mild level of "expertise" wrt Wolves, but domesticated dogs are so different, not least because there are so many breeds with definite traits, that it's not really the same at all aside from absolute basics - pack dynamics, say.

I wouldn't want to argue with a dog that could take a .45 in its stride.  I suppose, perhaps it is much as with people, many people are untrained in MA, poorly conditioned, etc, but sometimes the other guy is a Black Belt in multiple arts and the fittest man on the planet.

Anyhow, I am going purely on my own experience and knowledge to date and I don't want to argue the point, was just sharing.  With that in mind, I'd actually like to hear what you have to say in the same spirit, because I can learn from it myself.

John


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## 8253 (Apr 15, 2004)

12 guage double 00 buck should do the trick. if not available hope you can run faster than the dogs.  ive also heard mace works pretty well


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## Gaidheal (Apr 15, 2004)

Strangely, the times I am around dogs at all are when precisely those weapons (shotguns) are also usually around.  I do not own one myself, currently, but I have fired them, as a nine-year old was my first actually, heh!  (One school activity was clay pigeon shooting).  In the UK guns are rare and controlled very tightly as compared to, say, the USA.  It's very difficult today to legitimately own a pistol and noone outside of the military can legally own an automatic rifle, for example.  But I would only be near a gun in a scenario where any attack is extremely unlikely (sports shooting of some kind, or spectator to a 'hunt' [dogs on rabbits or foxes]).  Anyway.. yeah, I reckon that'd [12 bore with appropriate sized shot] do it.  Makes a mess of rabbits, for sure.

John


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## kenpo12 (Apr 15, 2004)

Gaidheal said:
			
		

> Ah, ok.  I think perhaps you have identified an area where we agree.  I think a dog that wants to really kill you/restrain (LOE scenario) you, above all else, is going to be mighty difficult to deal with.  Multiple dogs of the same mindset and I don't see a win without firearms and not necessarily even then.  I was going with the "stray dog goes for suddenly appeared human threat" type scenario or "Misguided big dog tries to assert dominance"  for the one on one scenario.  With the multiples I assumed a 'pack' that was running wild (seen it happen in Kuwait) in which case if you put up a fight and hurt, or even kill one or two the rest may back off or even turn on the injured dogs themselves.
> 
> I'm interested in how you come to have such a level of expertise, I have to admit.  I have an interest and mild level of "expertise" wrt Wolves, but domesticated dogs are so different, not least because there are so many breeds with definite traits, that it's not really the same at all aside from absolute basics - pack dynamics, say.
> 
> ...



I know what you mean about the stays in Kuwait, I did a tour in Saudi Arabia and ran into the same type of stray dogs.  Usually a really loud noise or a rock would take care of them but with dogs like that they tend to be a bit more wolf like due to lack of human contact.  

  I wouldn't say it's expertise but my father was a K-9 handler in the military which always had my interest.  Due to that interest and always growing up with dogs I just began reading.  I've read alot of books by Bruce Fogal DVM and quite a few other publications, that combined having my own dogs and volunteering for a pet rescue I've gotten to understand dogs pretty well.

   Although we started with opposing views, for the most part I think we're actually on the same page.


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## Gaidheal (Apr 15, 2004)

"Although we started with opposing views, for the most part I think we're actually on the same page."  - I'd hope so ;¬) I'm here to learn and to share.  But yeah, I'd say.  If I could get out of the situation safely I'd never fight a dog, let alone dogs (assuming I have noone else to protect, etc).  I don't like them and big dogs come close to scaring me.  This is a really bad SD situation (being scared/unhappy about your chances to win).  But if I absolutely had to fight I'd do pretty much what I said and hope to come out alive and get reconstructive surgery.  Honestly, that's what I'd expect with multiple large animals attacking in a determined fashion, as a stray dog pack might.

Sounds like you have more experience than I of the dogs and I am quite happy to admit that, I answered on the experience I have which is mostly watching dogs kill other animals or lounge around other people's houses.  As I said, the only time I 'fought' a dog was to knock aside a Rottweiler who charged me.. very possibly just to jump up and lick me.  My instinct took over and side-stepped/turned (sort of both) and hammered my right forearm and left fist into his side/ribcage knocking him away (not by much!).  He was a bit surprised, but basically unhurt and I went straight into an aggressive stance and shouted "Siadh, a chu!" ('Sit, dog!' in Gàidhlig - for some reason I have found dogs respond well to it.. or maybe they are just puzzled by Gàidhlig like everyone else, heh!).  Dog sat down, friend was stunned by it and concerned for their dog as well as me, but everyone was fine and now they are careful about opening the doors wide and allowing the dog to charge people down :¬)

I freely admit that my combat experience against dogs is limited to that aside from footage of dog attacks.  And I concurr that people are not easily getting out unhurt, in fact I think highly unlikely they get away without at least a mild bite/tear.  Realistically, a knife might work.  It's just not a weapon I'm happy to carry around, especially in this country.  But in any case... yeah.  I was an "honoured guest of Saddam Hussein" in Kuwait, by the way *sigh* (1990).  But still, life goes on and that which does not kill us makes us stronger.

John


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