# anyone heard of toushinkai?



## Enson (Jul 23, 2004)

i found this yesterday. looks weird and made me laugh.

www.toushinkai.com/koka2/index.htm

i've never heard of koka.:idunno:


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## MisterMike (Jul 23, 2004)

Wow. What are the odds but I happend to cross that site today as well!

I think koka is another spelling for Koga.

Somewhere there they have pictures of the Koga museum.


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## Don Roley (Jul 23, 2004)

This has been discussed before on another forum.

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=18746

Pay attention to what Kabutoki and Xavi say. My experience matches their's in regards to the "soke" in Japan. Go back to the site and see what kind of pictures seem to be missing from the guy who claims to have learned ninjutsu from Yunoki. In other words, no pictures of training. I think I have similar pictures of me with Yunoki in the back of my closet as well.

And the explination of "koka" can be found in the second paragraph of this article by some drunk in Japan. :drinkbeer


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## Genin Andrew (Jul 25, 2004)

hmmm...interesting about that "koka" stuff.  also i noticed they spelt Sun Tzu's name wrong.Typo or poor research? If your going to claim to be a great ninja and expose a secret art you can at least spell things right,like the name of a legendary ancient chinese warrior/philosopher...just my opinion.

much respect
-andrew


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## Enson (Jul 26, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> This has been discussed before on another forum.
> 
> http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=18746
> 
> ...


i went to the ebudo bulletin and it still doesn't say much. well i guess there is not much to say when there isn't much said. (did that make sense?)

i also went to your article. quite long but very informative. didn't know there was so much contreversy with fujito seiko.
thanks


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## Genin Andrew (Aug 5, 2004)

I also took the time to read Dons essay on the Koga Ryu,its quite good and explains well the many viewpoints about the Koga ninja and how "legit" Fujita Seiko was.I think its a good example of how much controversy and misunderstanding exists with the ninja arts (obviously history didnt help).But thats what makes ninjutsu so great to study/practice.


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## Wasabi (Aug 18, 2004)

Hello Everybody,

I hope you don't mind if I spend a few words about this school;

MisterMike, 'koka' is the right way to spell it as the kanji changed in 'ga' long after the ryu was developed. The name of the city itself is still spelled Koka.

Genin Andrew, Sun Tzu can be spelled in both ways 'Sun Tsu' or 'Sun Tzu' depending on the translator. Both ways are fine.

Don Roley, if pictures is what you want I believe you just have to ask.
This school is not a business machine as many others, not interested in advertisement and even less in filling up classes with students for $$.
The thread on e-budo is quite stupid and shallow as nobody actually contacted the school for information or explanations. I have read some of your articles and I thought you were a bit more mature in your studies.
It is quite disappointing to see many students from other schools acting like they were the real ultimate truth on earth, especially doing it behind people's back while honor and dignity are forgotten.
You may be doing your best, in your practice and in your studies...but this doesn't give the right to think that all the rest is silly.

With respect,
best regards.
Gio


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## Genin Andrew (Aug 18, 2004)

*deep sigh* here we go...


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## Kreth (Aug 18, 2004)

Wasabi said:
			
		

> MisterMike, 'koka' is the right way to spell it as the kanji changed in 'ga' long after the ryu was developed. The name of the city itself is still spelled Koka.


Interestingly enough, they claim to be a branch of "Koka Ninjutsu" originating in Shiga Prefecture. A quick search on Google turned up 
this link , which was the only one I could find that did not link back to their site.

Jeff


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## Enson (Aug 18, 2004)

"are you ready?... are you ready?... well lets get it on!" :jediduel:

wasabi/gio make sure you have all your facts straight before... well i'm sure we will all see how this turns out. *interesting, as i grab my long white beard*


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## Kreth (Aug 18, 2004)

Well, the link I gave seems to be a ninja village (read theme park) that decided to start offering lessons. I wonder if they're even aware that these guys are advertising them as their "honbu dojo."

Jeff


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## Wasabi (Aug 18, 2004)

...here we go....
Kreth, the link is right...
http://www.ff.iij4u.or.jp/~ninja/
just one step back from yours, click on the 11th link below the pic (Ninjutsu Gakuen) and then on the 7th one (World's Branches)...and you ll have the
link back to the site. Couldn't find the info ? Not bad for a ninja.
May I suggest you to take up some Japanese classes ?...It helps.

Genin Andrew, keep breathing...it is good for the circulation.

Enson, we have got nothing to prove or to demonstrate to anyone...who likes it follow, who doesn't goes on with his way. 

...and BTW, yes there is also a theme park but let's do not forget that Hatsumi has his one too 
www.ninjavillage.com
of Togakure in Nakano, right were Hayes also took some pictures for his books ...maybe overlooking few kids playing around.
Maybe all these ninjas like to play around sometimes 

All the best.
Gio'


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## Kreth (Aug 18, 2004)

Wasabi said:
			
		

> ...here we go....
> Kreth, the link is right...
> http://www.ff.iij4u.or.jp/~ninja/
> just one step back from yours, click on the 11th link below the pic (Ninjutsu Gakuen) and then on the 7th one (World's Branches)...and you ll have the
> ...


No, I'm far from fluent in Japanese (very far), but if it smells like a fish...



> ...and BTW, yes there is also a theme park but let's do not forget that Hatsumi has his one too
> www.ninjavillage.com
> of Togakure in Nakano, right were Hayes also took some pictures for his books ...maybe overlooking few kids playing around.
> Maybe all these ninjas like to play around sometimes


I guess the major difference is the village near Togakushi is advertised as a museum, and not a "honbu dojo." I've been there, it is purely for entertainment.

Jeff


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## Enson (Aug 18, 2004)

Wasabi said:
			
		

> Enson, we have got nothing to prove or to demonstrate to anyone...who likes it follow, who doesn't goes on with his way.
> 
> All the best.
> Gio'


gio since you are new you haven't seen that i will be the least to oppose you and your style. i just say be sure on what you are saying before you say it. some people are like surgical knives with their words and will cut up what you say in little pieces. i am always doing yahoo searches trying to find other ninjutsu styles out there. keep it up.

by the way that girl is kinda pretty. does she have a name? (j/k)
peace


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## Genin Andrew (Aug 20, 2004)

Wasabi,

On the Toushinkai website on the information page there is a small photo of a bundle of scrolls. Are these scrolls real? ie. specific to the Koka Rya Ninjutsu school or is it just a random picture of scrolls? just curious.

One more question, Is there any history on Grandmaster Yunoki? There is a lot of writing about his take on history but none of himself or how he was trained in ninjutsu and by who...just wondering whether you knew anything more?

much respect
-andrew


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## Wasabi (Aug 20, 2004)

Hi,

I am not sure about the scrolls in the picture, most probably it is the Rodanshu, from Takeda Ninpo.

About Yunoki Sensei there is a book about to be published in Japanese (hopefully later translated in English) on the genealogy of the Koka families in the region. It contains several original documents showing the relations between the local groups and the development of ninjutsu.
Maybe you could write directly to Toushinkai to get more detailed information.

Dear Enson, yes I noticed that many people are like surgical knives and this is pretty sad. All these disputes between schools at the end are only damaging the image of ninjutsu itself. Maybe in a more optimistic future we will see more cooperation and less business around this art.

All the best,

Gio


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## Cryozombie (Aug 20, 2004)

Wasabi said:
			
		

> All these disputes between schools at the end are only damaging the image of ninjutsu itself. Maybe in a more optimistic future we will see more cooperation and less business around this art.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Gio



Gio...

Unfortunatly, with the sheer volume of, er, well... Fruads that jumped out of the woodwork in the 80's claiming to be ninja instructors, the damage to the image of ninjutsu was already done, and the disputes between schools continue because most of the people still capitalizing on the name, regardless of their legitimacy, simply take the stand of "Oh, I'm for real all right, I dont need to prove it, MY ninjutsu branch is a big ol secret!!!" and then it does not take long for someone to question that...

It's good to know these guys ( Sensei Yunoki and his bunch) are making their history availible for verification, it helps add legitimacy to their claim.


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## Wasabi (Aug 20, 2004)

Hi Technopunk,

Believe me I know what you are talking about...I have been practicing martial arts for 25 years...it is not that much but quite enough to get an idea on what is going on. Claims of learning from the ghost of Hattori Hanzo, aliens, secret yamabushi met by chance in some remote mountain while fishing....the list is long.

On the other hand, ninjutsu is a wonderful experience which should be shared among those serious practitioners and researchers who, beyond the color of the patch on the gi, have lots of things in common, and everyone's experience is a treasure for the others.

All the best.
Gio'


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## Don Roley (Aug 28, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> It's good to know these guys ( Sensei Yunoki and his bunch) are making their history availible for verification, it helps add legitimacy to their claim.



Yunoki is very open about what he does. He does not claim to be a teacher of hsitorical ninjutsu, rather he teaches a dude ranch type of reconstruction. He took a few things from books and teaches them to people who want a little fun. You may note that there is no pictures or mention of anythign like punching or kicking on anything he controls, just the students from overseas claiming to represent him. I have met Yunoki and been to his theme park. What he does and what Toushinkai claims he is are two seperate things.

Ah yes, I can read Japanese.
 :supcool:


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## AaronLucia (Aug 28, 2004)

So where can i sign up?


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## Enson (Aug 30, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Yunoki is very open about what he does. He does not claim to be a teacher of hsitorical ninjutsu, rather he teaches a dude ranch type of reconstruction. He took a few things from books and teaches them to people who want a little fun. You may note that there is no pictures or mention of anythign like punching or kicking on anything he controls, just the students from overseas claiming to represent him. I have met Yunoki and been to his theme park. What he does and what Toushinkai claims he is are two seperate things.
> 
> Ah yes, I can read Japanese.
> :supcool:


then why doesn't yunoki correct them? too bad! anyway it looks like a cool place to visit. i don't know if they are legit but from what don is saying they're not. i guess i'll take don's word on this one.


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## Don Roley (Aug 30, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> then why doesn't yunoki correct them?



Does Yunoki know what they are doing?

Go through the posts of Saitama Steve here and you will find a case of some guy using the name "Yo Sato" claiming to be a member of a koryu preservation society for years without that orginization knowing he was doing so. Tanaka Fumon has a ton of people claiming to teach his art who are not qualified to do so. Oh, and look up the Rodmeister's experience in Japan. 

Most of the cases where people have climaed to be teachers under a person in Japan that have been exposed have done so because of some English speaker living and training with that teacher in Japan. The Englsih speaker finds out the story and lets the Japanese teacher know. In this case, I know of no English speaker studying with Yunoki because he does not have a dojo.


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## Kreth (Aug 31, 2004)

Wasabi is strangely quiet...

Jeff


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## Wasabi (Sep 6, 2004)

Hi Everyboby,

well...as I said, who likes it follow and who doesn't goes on with his ideas.
I am not here to advertise, recruit students or looking for fame.

Good for you Don if you are satisfied with what you are doing....but what you are saying is wrong. Believe it or not.....I personally don't really care.
Whoever wants to check it out can send an e-mail to Yunoki (the website is in some posts behind) and ask (Don, you can even write in Japanese..ne!).
And why do not post the replies on this forum ???
Don, you are saying that Toushinkai is not recognized.....check it out.

My best and deepest Rei to everybody.

Gio'


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## Don Roley (Sep 6, 2004)

Wasabi said:
			
		

> Whoever wants to check it out can send an e-mail to Yunoki (the website is in some posts behind) and ask (Don, you can even write in Japanese..ne!).
> And why do not post the replies on this forum ???
> Don, you are saying that Toushinkai is not recognized.....check it out.



Ah yes, I have seen this stratagy used by frauds before. Instead of providing proof themselves (in this case, something that shows Yunoki trains in things like punching a kicking- missing from any pistures etc or that he did anythign but recreate some stuff from historical works, etc) the person being questioned tries to try to present the other side as not being interested in the turth and keeping things out of the public eye.

Well, over a decade ago I visited Yunoki at his ninja theme park and he took me out to sushi later. He even arranged for me to exchange money with a bank after the hours it would normally be possible. At no time during the time we spent together discusssing ninjutsu and it's history did he say anything about having been taught it or teaching an art that predated him. I have two literarry works by him on my bookshelf and while I value them, at no time did he list his credentials as being a teacher of a ninjutsu tradition.

Oh, and did I mention that I speak and read Japanese at the highest level the Japanese goverment tests for? Care to show me independently verifiable proof that you or your teacher does so?


artyon:


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## Wasabi (Sep 8, 2004)

Dear Don,

It seems that you are a very arrogant and shallow person and I am not honestly interested to keep up this conversation with you. You can be the best ninjutsu practitioner or teacher or whatever you are but remember that are values like respect, honor, modesty and wisdom that makes a man before any uniform or belt color. Unfortunately it seems those are not your strenghts.

My posts were not for advertisement but only to exchange constructive information among people who shares the same interest, well....I understand that this is not the right place. Congratulations, you are among the enlighted ones...how lucky who can learn from you.

Ah, yes....BTW congratulations for your ikkyu in the noryoku shiken....but even there...sorry....you are not the only one.

Keep up the good work.

Gio'


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## Don Roley (Sep 8, 2004)

Wasabi said:
			
		

> It seems that you are a very arrogant and shallow person and I am not honestly interested to keep up this conversation with you.



Ah yes, the "I'm Very Sorry for You" defense as it has been outlined by noted troll expert Sharp Phil.

Well, if you ever decide to back up your claims with things that can be proven, please let us know. Superior attitudes and snotty comments are plentiful on the internet. What are missing are facts and logic in so many of the arguments used by people like you.


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## Kreth (Sep 8, 2004)

Don, maybe you should post a translation of Yunoki-san's webpage, so others who are linguistically challenged (like myself) can see what you're talking about.

Jeff


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## Enson (Sep 8, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Oh, and did I mention that I speak and read Japanese at the highest level the Japanese goverment tests for? Care to show me independently verifiable proof that you or your teacher does so?
> 
> 
> artyon:


don, although i understand what you are tyring to say... i don't agree with how you use this statement. i speak a forgein language but that doesn't make me forgien. that just means i worked my butt off to learn the language. i don't see how you speaking japanese makes you an expert on japanese culture. i see that alot with other people were they try to use language as credentials. not trying to start anything but just thought i would point that out.

gio, if you are planning on stayin on this forum for some time then you will soon find out avoidance to a topic or questions won't work. its best to be honest and just admit to what you know/don't know. if you try to dance around the topic and use evansion...(although great strategy in combat) will only get you a bad rep. and not many will take you serious.
just my 2 cents on things...
peace


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## Kreth (Sep 8, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> don, although i understand what you are tyring to say... i don't agree with how you use this statement. i speak a forgein language but that doesn't make me forgien. that just means i worked my butt off to learn the language. i don't see how you speaking japanese makes you an expert on japanese culture. i see that alot with other people were they try to use language as credentials. not trying to start anything but just thought i would point that out.


Don was responding to Wasabi's jab at me, where he basically said I had no right to question his art because I wasn't fluent in Japanese. And, knowing the language may not make one an expert on culture, but I'm pretty sure the amount of time Don has spent living in Japan has given him a pretty good grasp of the culture.

Jeff


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## Enson (Sep 8, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Don was responding to Wasabi's jab at me, where he basically said I had no right to question his art because I wasn't fluent in Japanese. And, knowing the language may not make one an expert on culture, but I'm pretty sure the amount of time Don has spent living in Japan has given him a pretty good grasp of the culture.
> 
> Jeff


oh i completely agree with you. i know what he was trying to do i was just stating my opinion. my post was not ment to come off as any sort of attack. just stating that some people use their language/nationality as credentials.
peace in the middle east!


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## Wasabi (Sep 9, 2004)

Hi,

"Back up your claims with things that can be proven..." ??

I didn't know there was a Supreme Court...and maybe you are the judge ??  Who cares what you think anyway.....wanna have proves ??? Call up Yunoki San, or e-mail him...and ask....that's all. 

All the best,

Gio'


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