# Attn: IKCA Karate Connection Students



## Sapper6 (Apr 12, 2004)

i thought this would be a more appropriate section of the forum for this thread.  there is an interesting debate in the General MA Talk forum as to whether video/distance learning is an effective method of studying/teaching the arts.  i would like to hear some feedback from people who study this way.  are there any KarateConnection students out there that are willing to shed some light on this subject?  how is your training progressing?  is it fulfilling to yourself as a martial artist?  rather than read/post in a thread that talks down on this method of study, i want to see what people on the inside have to say about it... :asian: 

i'd prefer this subject refer to students of Chuck Sullivan's system of Chinese Kenpo and the IKCA.


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## Big Pat (Apr 12, 2004)

Mr. Sullivan's and LeRoux's IKCA systems works for me. I started in Mr. Parker's Chinese Kenpo in 1974 under Mr. Jeff English. I renewed my training about 18 months ago with the IKCA tapes. Everything has been great for me-most of the material came back quickly. Please note I will more than likely never test for any rank again {maybe}. I think video testing is an Excellent way for advancement. Think what Mr. Parker's American Kenpo would have been like with each IKKA member having to submit a tape to be reviewed by Mr. Parker or his staff ? 

Mr. Sullivan is one of the few who can say "Been there, done that in Kenpo".

Buy or make the Ultra Man [IKCA Kenpo training dummy] out of steel. The plans are on the IKCA website. The PVC one flexes to much and usually breaks at the ankle area. 

EKP RIP

Big Pat
 :asian:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 13, 2004)

Big Pat said:
			
		

> Mr. Sullivan's and LeRoux's IKCA systems works for me. I started in Mr. Parker's Chinese Kenpo in 1974 under Mr. Jeff English. I renewed my training about 18 months ago with the IKCA tapes. Everything has been great for me-most of the material came back quickly. Please note I will more than likely never test for any rank again {maybe}. I think video testing is an Excellent way for advancement. Think what Mr. Parker's American Kenpo would have been like with each IKKA member having to submit a tape to be reviewed by Mr. Parker or his staff ?
> 
> Mr. Sullivan is one of the few who can say "Been there, done that in Kenpo".
> 
> ...


When Mr. Parker passed, there were people wondering...where have all the old-timers gone? Guys who no-one's heard of for awhile, but were seniors with SGM back in the day?  Mr. Sullivan is one of the few still alive that can trace themselves back that far, and I highly respect the man, his history, skill, etc.  I would ask you to note: You had "warm-body" kenpo in the past, so you had a foundation prior to renewing your activity and interest. The tapes, for you, are a refresher and provide direction. What about a novice who is in BFE, never had warm-body training in his life, and orders the tapes?


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## Big Pat (Apr 13, 2004)

Your points and observations are valid. My perspective is one with Mr. Parker's Chinese Kenpo and Tang Soo Do in studio settings. If you look at the tapes from the point of view of a novice they certainly give you an excellent understanding of what Kenpo is about and how to learn and apply the material. In my opinion they do a great job of teaching the basics-which Mr. Sullivan speaks of as being the most important. In the purple belt tape it is recomended that you find others to train with-all sizes, shapes and skill levels. The use of the Ultra Kenpo man and a heavy bag are great to feel the speed and power of a strike but to gain accuracy training with others in needed. A.S.P. {accuracy,speed and power} are the keys to defending yourself. There is no substitute for going toe to toe with another to become a complete martial artist. In my opinion the IKCA tapes can in the least give you an insight into Kenpo and at the most make you a Black belt-if you have the desire. Mr. Sullivan states, "We don't make it easy-we make it possible".

EKP RIP

Big Pat
 :asian:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 13, 2004)

Quality reply.  Thank you. Still not convinced right for me, but you make your case well.


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## IKCAMemberGary (Apr 14, 2004)

Hello,

I have been affiliated with the IKCA for 8 years now. In that time, I have attended 8 seminars with them, 7 in Amite, Louisiana, and 1 in Deland, FL.
Chuck Sullivan and Vic LeRoux are wonderful people, salt of the earth. Chuck is always a gentleman. I can remember when I first joined, and all of the heat that the IKCA was taking because of the format of the training. I used to get into heated debates on boards (some of you probably remember!), and when I discussed these things with Chuck, he just smiled and said "Let it go". I have never heard him say anything bad about anyone, nor have I heard bad things said about him by other Seniors.

Now, about the Kenpo itself. I was/am a Shotokan stylist, having earned a black many years ago, and still today practice katas. But when my girlfriend bought the tapes for me in 1996, WOW was all I could say! I was so impressed by what I saw, I drove down to DeLand to meet them in person and witness a black belt test for two IKCA brown belts. These kids were VERY good! They decided to use medium contact on each other for the purposes of the test when performing techniques. Lets just say, that when it was over, they were limping, bleeding and bruised, but whatever they were, they were black belts! 

In past seminars, I have met students who have studied exclusively through the video method. And I am telling you, they GET IT. Watching them perform their techniques and whatever part of the master form they were doing was unbelievable. The reason that they GET IT is because of the fact that BASICS BASICS BASICS are stressed so much. And it has to be! What many people dont understand is, when you purchase the tapes, yes, you can get a self defense system that will work for you. But you arent getting the WHOLE system. There are MANY things that, if you dont test and send in the video, you will miss. The responses that are sent back to the students from Chuck and Vic are to them personally, correcting this or correcting that, or praising this or that. And extras, like extensions, endings etc are added at that time. So much more than just what the tapes themselves offer.

I could go on all day about this wonderful organization and about Chuck and  Vic, but I think you get the idea.

GOOD KENPO....GOOD PEOPLE.

Gary %-}


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## Basicman (Apr 14, 2004)

I too am a member of the IKCA and have to say that Vic and Chuck are great guys.  They truly want you to learn something and are not out to take your money.  The only complaint and it isn't really a complaint, more of an observation, iks that the videos are a little dated.  The system has evolved and some of the stances and techniques have changed.  The testing is fair and if you fail, you don't have to pay to retest.  The only drawback I feel, is that when you are learning your basics, no one is there to correct you.  So you may not be able to progress beyond orange for a while until you can get the basics down pat.  The instructor's are fun and great to talk to.  So are other members of the IKCA.  I think as to whether you can learn by video, that var ies from person to person and what they are trying to accomplish.

Take care,
John


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## donald (Apr 14, 2004)

%-} 
Is'nt there any novice IKCA practioners out there who can help in this debate? The underlying thread of the respones so far. Have been from those who had ma experience prior to there distance training.  I have to agree with some of the previous post that stated in essence. Prior experience gives one a foot up as it were. I would think that someone with no ma experience would need at least a training partner to bounce things off of. I think it would be really difficult to grasp some of the nuances of a system without a good partner/teacher to assist one along the way. 

As always, just one guys opinion...

 :asian:


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## Basicman (Apr 14, 2004)

It isn't easy.  I failed my orange belt test due to not catching nuances on tape.  The personal lesson I got after failing made all the difference.  I think having a partner who understands what you are doing makes a difference, but if that partner has no clue, then it is like the blind leading the blind.  Video courses have their limitations, but so do alot of Dojos.  Many of them are crap.  It also depends what you want out of your MA experience.

Take care,
John


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 15, 2004)

The issue for me is still a "how to manage quality control?" piece. There are guys on this forum who came up through the kenpo ranks the warm-body way, and still train with excellent sensei several times a week; many have progressed to become leading teachers and professors themselves.  Each session provides ongoing information and correction and change towards progression of understanding and skill.  Take the TOW with Billy gettin whooped on by Mr. Tatum. How many times a week is Mr. Lear getting first-hand, live feedback from an in-the-flesh kenpo instructor with deep, multi-leveled awareness of kenpo concepts and applications? There are subtleties and nuances that can be explored and extrapolated in each session, that would not be available sans an in-the-flesh teacher.  Now, let's take one of these black belts, and compare the quality of understanding and performance to someone who has not had this level of ongoing, on-the-spot feedback.  Are they the same? What if these talented kids from that test spent thier time w/ Mr. Sullivan in his garage on black belt class night, instead of in their own garages dissecting video and banging on an ultra-man...does it not stand to reason there would be a significant difference in skill and understanding?

Should one, so to speak, bow as deeply to a video black belt as to a warm-body black belt?

Regards,

Dr. Dave


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## Basicman (Apr 16, 2004)

The whole Black Belt thing - who cares?  Really.  I could give two toots what color you wear around your waist or how long you have done your art.  Mr Parker was a great business man.  He was concerned with making money. That's why AK has so many self defense techniques.  I don't bow to any Black Belt.  Sorry I don't.  I could care less how long you have studied with someone or how many katas you can do or self defense techs you know.  What means more to me is can this person really fight.  Are they in shape.  If you want to study an art through video and you have no quality instruction available, then I think  video is a viable option.  Who cares if you utilize a stance incorrectly.  It doesn't matter.  What matters most is that you go home after a fight.  That's it.  

I feel what matters most is that a person practices the basics.  Period.  All the rest is icing on the cake.  Hey I like to earn achievements, just as much as the next guy.  But this whole Black Belt thing has gotten way out of control in the United States.  People don't bow or question where peole get their Bachelors, so I don't see the big deal about a Black Belt.

I am sorry if I have offended anyone, that is not my intent.  

Take care,
John


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## Sapper6 (Apr 16, 2004)

Basicman said:
			
		

> Who cares if you utilize a stance incorrectly.  It doesn't matter....
> 
> ...I feel what matters most is that a person practices the basics.




i'd say if a person doesnt utilize a stance correctly, then they lack in the basics, right...?  only saying that because all stances are learned as basics.  your stance is the foundation upon which you execute.  if you lack in that area, i doubt you'd be walking home after a fight.


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## The Kai (Apr 16, 2004)

Hello I am new to the forum. so please be patient with me.

ASctually the "whole Black Belt Thing" is important and should be noted as such.   The martial arts are more than basics and a collection of "tricks".  If you find a competent instructor he will guide you throughthe process.
Unfortantly, through Video black belts there is much info being lost or glossed over to make a easy buck.  (this is my opinion)


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## Basicman (Apr 16, 2004)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> i'd say if a person doesnt utilize a stance correctly, then they lack in the basics, right...?  only saying that because all stances are learned as basics.  your stance is the foundation upon which you execute.  if you lack in that area, i doubt you'd be walking home after a fight.



I disagree to a point.  I think stances are a useful teaching tool, but ultimately, my fighting stance looks nothing like what is taught in kenpo or other martial arts.  I use a boxing stance.  IMHO, I feel that many people look at their Martial Arts training as the be all, end all for learning to fight.  I disagree.  You can have all 10 different basic stances and 20 different strikes and kicks to use.  I believe that all you need are a couple of good basic strikes and kicks.  That is it.  That is what wins fights.  None of this fancy stuff.  I think TMA are stuck too much in tradition.  I think that is where the problems are.  I feel that AK is becoming this way.  TKD has already gone down this road and so has most forms of Karate.

Take care
--John


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 16, 2004)

Basicman said:
			
		

> The whole Black Belt thing - who cares? Really. I could give two toots what color you wear around your waist or how long you have done your art. Mr Parker was a great business man. He was concerned with making money. That's why AK has so many self defense techniques. I don't bow to any Black Belt. Sorry I don't. I could care less how long you have studied with someone or how many katas you can do or self defense techs you know. What means more to me is can this person really fight. Are they in shape. If you want to study an art through video and you have no quality instruction available, then I think video is a viable option. Who cares if you utilize a stance incorrectly. It doesn't matter. What matters most is that you go home after a fight. That's it.
> 
> I feel what matters most is that a person practices the basics. Period. All the rest is icing on the cake. Hey I like to earn achievements, just as much as the next guy. But this whole Black Belt thing has gotten way out of control in the United States. People don't bow or question where peole get their Bachelors, so I don't see the big deal about a Black Belt.
> 
> ...


1.  I use Black Belt to represent a supposed comparison data point for "expert" level skill. It's a piece of cloth, bubba, and nothing more. But for effective communication to occur, there typically needs to be some point of reference agreed upon or operationally defined. Hence, my use of the phrase "so to speak".  I do not suggest bowing to a black belt just because they are one/have one.  I've met plenty not worthy of respect...felons, cheeseballs, no skill, etc.

2.  I am in concurrance that AK has too many techniques, but not for the reasons you state. And I'm sure there are many more knowledgeable than I in the history of various kenpo evolutions who would be willing to take you to task for that assertion. Most of the remnant techniques represent demonstrations of principles in application. Concepts contained in an exemplary model.

3. Nobody cares if you utilize a stance incorrectly. Knock yourself out.  Just be aware; Kenpo stances ARE NOT TMA stances. TMA stances were passed down traditionally. Kenpo stances (neutral bow, forward and reverse bow, wide and close kneel) are recent inventions in their current incarnations, and are designed to express specific ideas into the combat interaction. The reverse bow cancels out target options for your opponent, while bringing into play a different "likelihood" set of natural weapons with angles of delivery than are immediately available from a neutral bow, forward bow, or boxers stance (try a lead leg lifting heel scoop from a forward bow...kinda hard).  Next Question: Does it matter?  Probably not. The perfection of your bow stances will play little in the outcome of combat. It's more mayhem than most karate guys think it is. However, the attention you pay to any given item, such as a stance, can be considered representative of the attention you pay to items in general, such as body weight behind a punch.  If sloppy on one, probably sloppy on the other.  And if you just want to make sure you walk away, get really, really good at throwing 3-5 boxing combinations really, really hard, and you will position yourself in the top 5% of personal combatants in the world.  The rest is hobbyism or perfectionism, which invite you to learn more than survival.

4. You're right: The BB thing has gotten out of control. It used to mean something (i.e., "probable badas*".). Now it seems more and more to mean "predictably bad combatant who paid a lot of money for nothing...they still blow at fighting for their skins." Too many schools...video and otherwise...giving them away as prizes for atttendence and on-time dues paying, instead of skill.  I hate it that it's hapenning to kenpo. I meet some kenpo black belts that are absolute phenoms, and wonder where I will ever find the time to train to keep up with that level of skill expectation when I can't even make time to walk the dogs. Berate myself for how far I've fallen in my own skill as result of inactivity. Then I'll meet some yabo in a black gi with a kenpo patch and black belt who looks like a parody...only to find out they weren;t a joke, but the real thing.

Finally, no offense taken. You have some excellent reasons for your opinions, even if stated sparsely.  Occam would be proud.

Regards,

Dave.


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## ob2c (Apr 17, 2004)

I recently joined the IKCA, and just sent my first test in. I obviously don't have much experience with them to comment on, but I can give my reasons for going this route and how I go about training.

First, I have prior experience in American Kenpo. I used to train with a small group and travel for private instruction. For reasons I won't go into, that is no longer an option. I also used to train with different schools in other styles around the region here, but the really good ones close by have either closed their doors or fallen away into Mc'ism. So, I looked into the IKCA. They make it possible for me to train in a good, principles based system that is very similar to what I was studying. They provide a base to work from, while I can still work out with other stylists here for extra training and working with live bodies. I'm still trying to find a workout partner to work the IKCA course with regularly. But, if I don't, I still have a school of sorts to train with. Maybe not as good as a regular class with 20 or more varrying bodies to work on, but it is what I can do at the present and in the foreseeable future. Like Mr. Sullivan said, they make it possible.

As to learning off tapes, I think even a complete novice could learn this way. Their system is simplified, and they break the instruction down really well on the tapes. I think they should be able to correct students from the test tapes. I picked up a few things watching my own test tape, and I'm sure they will find more. Maybe not as good as ongoing correction on a biweekly basis. On the other hand, there aren't 20 pluss students vieing for the instructors attention. And they do answer questions, in case you are not sure about something. I think this is a vieable alternative for those who don't have regular access to a good school.


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## IKCAMemberGary (Apr 21, 2004)

>>Unfortantly, through Video black belts there is much info being lost or glossed over to make a easy buck. (this is my opinion)

I see a lot of people disagree with video training, but I have to ask, have *YOU* tried it? You may disagree with learning by video, and people do, but to assume that you will lack in some way is just unfair and untrue. There are MANY examples of the IKCA students around the country taking 1st in tournies in forms AND fighting. Tournies are not the end all to everything, but it is a good indication of who the students represent, and their training received.

As far as the students that I watched test in DeLand, FL, which I posted on before, they were actually students of an IKCA black belt down there, so they DID have a warm-bodied instructor to learn from. 

I have been involved in martial arts for 22+ years now, having trained in TKD, Wing Chun, Praying Mantis (hated it!), Shotokan and now IKCA Chinese Kenpo. I have seen good students, I have seen bad. I have seen good instructors, I have seen bad. Hell, I once saw a 5th black at a tournament in Jax, FL in the 80s what any of my yellow belts couldve whipped. Now his students were GOOD, but he personally SUCKED.

Someone wrote about "how to manage quality control". Its easy. Chuck and Vic critique what you send in and send back a reply with corrections, as needed. If you dont pass, they will give you the correct pointers to get you to where you need to be. Its the same for all IKCA students. It never changes.

About bowing as deeply to a video black belt as to a warm bodied black belt... well, how can/should I respond to this? I can just tell you this: Come to a seminar, or meet up with an IKCA person in your area, and then make up your mind about what we do and how well we do it. Plus, I can assure you that nearly ALL people who make it to black with the IKCA have had personal hands on training with Chuck and Vic. Some go to CA just to test with them personally, instead of by video. Many IKCA people, like me, attend as many seminars as they can to get that personal instruction from Chuck, Vic and other black belts in the IKCA.

Ok, my fingers are tired now! hahaha

Gary  %-}


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