# Kosutemi Seieikan - Kata, Competition and Technique



## OnlyAnEgg (Sep 21, 2005)

Tonight we learned fukugata ni (fukyugata).  I talked with the Sesei afterwards and he told me that the forms are all Shotokan.  The primary difference between Ko Sutemi and Shotokan would appear to be the competive emphasis.  We haven't done much mat work, yet; but, there will be some jujitsu when the adults begin to attend regularly again.  Apparently, summer is a relaxed time at the dojo.


Thanks to Andrew for pointing me to the forms.  It's been very helpful.

egg


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Sep 21, 2005)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Tonight we learned fukugata ni (fukyugata).  I talked with the Sesei afterwards and he told me that the forms are all Shotokan.


Not to contradict your sensei, but to the best of my knowledge, Shotokan doesn't practice the fukyugata (ichi or ni).  They came from Shorin Ryu.  Shotokan's fundamental forms are the Taikyoku forms, and they are different from the Fukyugata.  Also, Seiei-kan refers to the next set of forms as "Pinan" (shodan through godan), which is the designation given them in the Okinawan systems, while Shotokan calls them "Heian".  And, Funakoshi reversed the order of the first two Pinan forms when he taught them as Heian, so Pinan Shodan is Heian Nidan, and vice versa.  Where Okinawan forms utilize the cat stance (Neko-ashi Dachi), Shotokan tends to replace them with the back stance (Kokutsu Dachi).  
If you'd like to compare the two systems in terms of forms, Funakoshi's _Karate-do Kyohan_ and Shoshin Nagamine's _Essence of Okinawan Karate-do_ will give you plenty of material.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Sep 22, 2005)

I thank you for this information.  I apologize for speaking so quickly when I could've done a bit of research first and saved you the necessity of correction.  

I admit that I may have misheard Sensei.  It's also possible that my ignorance of the comparative differences between Seieikan and other disciplines led me to misspeak.

I will find these books you noted.  I have Karate-do Nyumon and had been planning on getting Kyohan at the first opportunity.

egg


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Sep 22, 2005)

No problem.  I'm always glad to help where I can.  After all, that's (IMHO) the best thing about these forums.  They give you the chance to share information with a wide range of practitioners.  Believe me, I've been corrected many times here and elsewhere.  I've always appreciated the learning experience.

By the way, you can find a listing of the Seiei-kan kata here. As you can see, some names associated with Japanese styles, some with Okinawan.

Keep us updated on how your training is going.  Always glad to hear from another Buckeye .


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## OnlyAnEgg (Sep 22, 2005)

Tonight was a fine practice. Much attention to the position of the hands/arms in blocks and punches with a focus on the centerline. I have to stop myself from fully extending my arm.

Then a whirlwind through 4 kata: the two fukyugata and the first 2 Pinan. Pinan Nidan was a lot like one of the kibon from TKD. Sparring was nice and aggressive. For some reason, everyone wanted a piece of the 'old man'  It's a very young class. Three days until the next class, so, the kids, wife and I will be doing kata this weekend. Funakoshi said 100 repetitions for each before moving to the next. Sounds like good advice.

Where in Ohio, Randy?  I'm in Thornville, a little east of Columbus.

egg


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Sep 24, 2005)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Where in Ohio, Randy?  I'm in Thornville, a little east of Columbus.


Chillicothe.  A little bit south of nowhere .


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## OnlyAnEgg (Sep 27, 2005)

Randy Strausbaugh said:
			
		

> Chillicothe. A little bit south of nowhere .


That's not too far at all. 

My school is having a tournament on 10/15 and you're close enough to attend if you wish.

I have not attended a tourney in which I would compete. Anyone who'd like to witness an old man strive toward a level of skill that may merit an award, please attend.

I have no further info on the nature of the tourney at this time. I will get more details Thursday at class.

egg


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 1, 2005)

With school back in session, classes have been becoming a little more structured.  There is considerably more focus on dojo discipline the past couple classes.  Still not too many adults and Sensei's the only advanced belt; though I know of two other blacks that sporadically attend d/t recent injuries.

I have the structure of the first two kata memorized and am practicing daily to refine the movements and add power to the strikes and blocks.  Also, this week, I began some weight training.  Low weight un the arms and upper body with many reps in order to build up speed, heavier weight on some reps for my legs cause they've always been solid.  Now to make them more so.

The tournament is in 2 weeks and Sensei stated he wants me to compete; so, kata and kumite for me.  Kinda makes me jittery inside.  I look forward to it anyway.


egg


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 11, 2005)

Last night's class was a little sketchy.  About 6 people were half an hour late.  Sensei had business to tend to at the onset; so, he gave me the class to warm up! (W00t! am I all that?)

Mostly kumite with a lot of younglings; but, at the end Sensei took us all on one at a time with me in the final slot.  My stepson, Jack, told me I looked pretty cool fighting Sensei.  That's worth the training right there.

Fukyugatas Ichi and Ni still, so far.  Tournament on Saturday.  I'm entering Kata and Kumite.  Starting to get more nervouser.


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## Navarre (Oct 11, 2005)

You'll do fine, Egg. Having been around the tournament scene a few times, I've found it's best to take it for what it is.


A tournament isn't a fight or even a test of your abilities. Many tournaments, unfortunately, aren't fair. They are all very political, some moreso than others.

Sometimes someone feels cheated. Sometimes someone is cheated. Remember, it's just a game really.

Train as hard as you can.  Be confident, neither doubtful nor arrogant concerning your own ability. 

You only know what you know. Just like tests in school, some days you do better than others. It's not necessarily a reflection on your ability.

When I'm in a tournament, I do things to stay loose and ready. it also keeps me from sitting around mentally preoccupied about my upcoming event.

You will likely find they handle black belt weapons and katas, as well as synchronized katas, before breaking off into different rings. So, you will have a while to wait. Don't go stir crazy. Watch what you like, talk to ppl, have fun.

A tournament is a great place to meet some nice people. Enjoy it for all it offers and walk away from it wiser than you went in.  Have fun!


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 11, 2005)

Domo, Navarre.  It's only nerve-wracking because it's my first tourney.  I already have heard how fickle the judges can be and I'm not going to stress over that.  I simply wish to do the best I can, regardless of the outcome.  To me, it is rather a personal test.  Medals, trophies or nothing, my finish will be based on what I feel I've done.


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## Navarre (Oct 11, 2005)

Oh, and my advice on katas, from one who's judged quite a few hundred:

I was trained from the start to incorporate 5 elements: Power, Focus, Concentration, Balance, and Form. I certainly think all of these are vital. Being from my original system, you may have been taught the same thing.

However, don't focus too much on just these 5 elements. The biggest problem I see with lower ranked katas is that the student is too focused on proper technique, trying to show how "perfect" he/she can execute the moves. Consequently, the kata looks very stiff. After watching a few of these, it's hard to want to watch another.

Instead, remember that a kata is supposed to be simulated combat. In a fight I don't focus my mental energy on sweeping my foot in an inside arc as I slide from one zenkusta-dachi to the next, making sure I execute my reverse punch by rotating..blah, blah, blah.

Make your kata "dynamic". By that I mean put yourself into a mental state that is closer to what you would be in during a fight.  There is an intensity there that will come through. Let your techniques flow on their own, relying on your training. I would rather see a karateka who is "involved" in their own kata rather than trying to impress me with their stance.

Of course, I don't mean you should be sloppy in your technique. I'm saying that you should practice your katas for the tournament the same way.  There are times you need to break down every little aspect of a kata but, in the tournament, let that preoccupation go.

My other advice on kata is to vary the pace. Too many ppl perform the entire kata at the same speed the whole way through. Why would I be impressed just because you kaiai on one of those punches when it was like all the rest?

Like in a real fight, sometimes you move quickly and sometimes you don't.  Emphasize speed and power on important visual parts of the kata and wind down/up at other parts.

And lastly, in kata and kumite, here's a small thing that makes a big difference: Relax your shoulders. Most people, when they get tense, tighten across the shoulders and it affects everything. When the timing is right, relax the shoulders ands release the tension as if you were sighing. It helps; you'll see.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 11, 2005)

Regarding kata, arigato.  I do want the 5 elements to be present correctly.  I also want, however, the kata to be fluid and not so much like some kinda robot.  I do practice them in that fashion: 5 elements first, fluidity and naturalness second.


I see what you mean about varied pace.  I will practice tonight with that in mind.

Regarding shoulder tension.  I will need to note that during kumite.  Sensei strongly advises relaxed fists, suggesting we tense immediately before connecting a strike or block.  I have not noticed my shoulders.  It seems I'm so busy noticing everything else at this stage 

Again, thank you.

:asian:


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## Navarre (Oct 11, 2005)

You are most welcome, Egg.  After all, you gave me the Underdog parade balloon. I figured I owed you all the help I could.  lol


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 11, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> You are most welcome, Egg. After all, you gave me the Underdog parade balloon. I figured I owed you all the help I could. lol


Excellent point!


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## Navarre (Oct 13, 2005)

Hey, egg, how is your tournament training going?  Has any of my advice been helpful or have you picked up more from Saturday morning cartoons?


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 13, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> Hey, egg, how is your tournament training going? Has any of my advice been helpful or have you picked up more from Saturday morning cartoons?


Lol!  I only accept training from pre-1980 Chop-socky films, not Staurday toonage 

Training proceeds apace.  The night before last, I began to vary speeds in the first kata.  I'm still bringing the second up to the point where I can manipulate the pace.

The tension I have in my shoulders is still evident; though, I'm told that my arms seem more relaxed, leading (of course) to speedier hits.

I've added wrist weights during practice of blocks and strikes.  This, too, is adding some speed.

Sensei scoped the competition and dexcribed to me, during sparring, how I may prevail over my potential opponants.  I'm still nervous; but, it's my first time and no one will be gentle.

heheh...really, I'm amped


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## Navarre (Oct 13, 2005)

I've found the scariest opponents in tournaments to be white belts and those with a rank just under 1st black.  White belts of course have little control and have wild movements. 

On the other end of the under-black-belt continuum you have these guys who are so close to black belt they can taste it. They have good technique but are so determined to show it that their opponent ends up unconscious.

Don't sweat the kumite though.  Have fun with it. A majority of your opponents will probably barge in a'swingin' like mad. Take your time and don't rush it. Work your angles and let your instincts do the rest.

Katas are worse because it's all sort of surreal. You wait forever in a group of 20, then stand "on deck" while the guy or gal before you does their kata. Then, oddly enough, I used to seem to lose all track of reality and time as soon as my name was called. 

I'd hear my name called, vaguely remember walking to the judges, doing my bow, mumbling something about fu ku i dunno, and then it seemed the whole thing was over.  Thirty second later I'm like "What happened?".

That's also a lot of what prompted my comment about speed. When I'm out there trying to "look good" I got all technical and everything became stiff.  When I relaxed my shoulders, released that tension, and got myself into the mental fight, I could then exhibit better technique. 

It also allowed for the variety in pace. I am strong in places and fluid in other. Sometimes I explode into a technique and sometimes I almost seem to take a rest; just like a real fight.

You'll do fine. I'm anxious to hear how it goes.


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## Navarre (Oct 13, 2005)

So did relaxing your shoulders make a noticable difference in your relaxation, endurance, and awareness of your body?


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 13, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> So did relaxing your shoulders make a noticable difference in your relaxation, endurance, and awareness of your body?


When I thought to do it (it's not instinctual for me, yet) I felt I was quicker and more fluid.  At this stage, I need to focus on being relaxed through my shoulders and, to a lesser extent, my arms.

Endurance seemed to be no greater to me.  I admit to focusing more on landing one on Sensei than how long I'd been trying.  My endurance has, in general, grown longer since I began.

As to awareness, I'd have to say that relaxing my arms allowed me to focus attention on other aspects of the fight.  I can extrapolate from that the more I relax, the greater my awareness.  Well, that sounds better reversed: when I am tensed, part of my focus is on the place of tension.  Decreasing the tension increases awareness.


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## Navarre (Oct 13, 2005)

Yeah, although tension will wear you down, relaxed muscles isn't going to give you better anaerobic endurance per se. But, I've found that when I'm feeling physically worn during a fight, taking a moment to step back, drop my center of gravity, and relax my body will allow me to burst out with another technique instead of standing in place gasping.

I think you're right on with relaxation as it relates to awareness. My sensei always talked about "relaxed power", taking time for your body to relax and flow then explode when you desire it to. 

It's my "flow like water. strike like fire" thing. You were already doing that by keeping your fists relaxed until making contact. Now you're seeing it reflected in your arms and thus your hitting speed. It'll all go forward from here.

Hmmm, all of a sudden it seems like you're my first Ko Sutemi student in 6 years. ... No bowing required.  The invoice for your monthly class fee is in the mail.  lol


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 15, 2005)

It's 10:47.  Tournament starts at 12:00.

A little nervous; but, not as bad as I thought I'd be.  I went through the kata this morning.  Some meditation.

I'll post this evening the results

egg


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 15, 2005)

All right!


1st in kumite
1st loser in kata 

The karateka I fought was 11 years my younger and we are both white belts.  It was, actually, a grueling fight.  I was a little surprised I won.

He is also the one that took first in kata for my division.

A lot of fun


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## Navarre (Oct 15, 2005)

Congratulations on your kumite victory! And, congratulations on your first tournament.

 I'd like to hear some detail on how you think things went. What went well? Where do you plan on improving? Was anything especially surprising, exciting, or disappointing?

 Let us know.


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Oct 15, 2005)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> A lot of fun


That's the important part.  The rest is just stuff.  Happy training!


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 16, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> Congratulations on your kumite victory! And, congratulations on your first tournament.


Tnank you very much.



			
				Navarre said:
			
		

> I'd like to hear some detail on how you think things went.


Well, it was a bit disorienting, not knowing what to expect; but, we had Sensei, his Sensei and another Black belt doing the judging.  I paid close attention to the scoring process and now have a better idea how that's done.  It was smooth, start to finish.



			
				Navarre said:
			
		

> What went well?


No one commited seppuku d/t shame in the ring.  That was good.  I did my form well; but, not well enough.  I had no fear of my opponent; although, he was a tough one...yes, he was.  About 5' 5", 180, maybe and built of stone.  Solid hitter with good legs.  My legs (now deemed flipperfeet by some of the audience) were faster and a bit more accurate.



			
				Navarre said:
			
		

> Where do you plan on improving?


Smoothness and relaxation in the ring and in kata are both targets for improvement.  I need to develop some fist/arm combinations and rely a little less on my kicks, I think.




			
				Navarre said:
			
		

> Was anything especially surprising, exciting, or disappointing?


I was not surprised by the kata place.  My competitor was skilled, smooth and better practiced than I.  I am, however, surprised by the kumite decision.  We were 2-2 when the final point came.  I was certain he had a body kick that beat my straight punch.  Shigata ga na, neh?



			
				Navarre said:
			
		

> Let us know.


Thanks for all the support and advice.


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## Navarre (Oct 16, 2005)

That's all good to hear.

 Randy is right that having fun is the most important thing. It sounds like you did, so Good Job!

 It also sounds like you've learned a lot from it too. Tournaments are about as close to a real fight as it is to crocheting a sweater or milking a goat.  Still, we can learn a lot about our abilities and how we react under pressure. 

 In that regards, tournaments are useful tools as well as fun.  It sounds like you got a lot of both.

 And, although your medals show a base leg knee kick that is clearly against tourament rules (the things they teach these kids!) I am proud of you just the same.

 Take whatever you can carry away from the event and adapt it into advancing yourself for the real world.  Again, Good Job Egg!


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 16, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> It also sounds like you've learned a lot from it too. Tournaments are about as close to a real fight as it is to crocheting a sweater or milking a goat. Still, we can learn a lot about our abilities and how we react under pressure.


Agreed; but, they are quite different from sparring in class. I learned quite a bit more in that regard.



			
				Navarre said:
			
		

> And, although your medals show a base leg knee kick that is clearly against tourament rules (the things they teach these kids!) I am proud of you just the same.


That's not really me on the medal 


egg

PS: It also bears stating this this event is the first athletic event I have won, placed or showed in all my 44 years.


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## Navarre (Oct 16, 2005)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> they [tournaments] are quite different from sparring in class. I learned quite a bit more in that regard.


 Yes, you certainly find out a lot more about how you really fight in a tournament than in class. The difference in stress level is remarkable.

 Your logical next step is a caged pit fighter match in the Hong Kong underground. Good luck!



			
				OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> That's not really me on the medal


 I know. When I fought in tournaments I consistently requested upon my arrival that they replaced the gold medal in all my events with one displaying my face. ...  They seemed to find my request amusing. I'm sure it was only an embarrassed laughter because they had no time to properly rework the medals.



			
				OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> It also bears stating this this event is the first athletic event I have won, placed or showed in all my 44 years.


 And that is a spectacular feeling! Any moment in our lives where we face a true challenge and persevere through ethical conduct and focused spirit is worth celebrating.  I don't drink but here's a cold pitcher of iced tea from me! :supcool:


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 16, 2005)

As I do not drink, as well, iced tea will be just wonderful, thank you.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 17, 2005)

Here are a few pictures from the event. In all shots, I am the old man 

No, really:
1: Kata finish
2: Kumite finish
3: Kumite (I know...I'm wide open)
4: Just mugging for the camera


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## Lisa (Oct 17, 2005)

Excellent photos Egg.  Thanks for posting them.


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## Navarre (Oct 17, 2005)

Hey, thanks for the pics, Egg!

As you noticed, having some pics or video can help you analyze areas where you want to improve, such as closing your guard side when attacking. ... Y'know, you can clear that little error right up with PhotoShop; even create cool explosion effects around your punch.

The setting looks to be much smaller than I usually see. I'm used to most tournaments being held in a high school gym somewhere. Was this tournament for students only from your school, sister schools, or open to the MA community at large?


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 17, 2005)

It was open to the MA community; but, it seems only our school and Sensei Annarino's (Sensei's sensei) competed.  It must be said, though,  I did not poll everyone that attended.

I'll say this, though, I need to find a sparring partner and just that quick, too.  Simply sparring in class is woefully inadequate in preparing for a competition.

In any event, small; but, fun and exciting.  I can't wait for the next


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 17, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> Y'know, you can clear that little error right up with PhotoShop;


I see what you mean about fixing the error.

This is much better...


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## Lisa (Oct 17, 2005)

:rofl:  :rofl: 

OMG!  I think I dated you in the '80's !!!


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 17, 2005)

Lisa said:
			
		

> :rofl: :rofl:
> 
> OMG! I think I dated you in the '80's !!!


Maybe...I was in that band, 'Boston'.


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## Navarre (Oct 17, 2005)

You look like Dee Snider from Twisted Sister. lmao!!


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 17, 2005)

I'm not gonna take that

No! I ain't gonna take that


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## Navarre (Oct 17, 2005)

You're not gonna take it ... anymore!


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 24, 2005)

I welcome any comparisons.

Fukyugata Ich

Attention
Bow
Look Left
Turn 90 Left, Left Low Block
Step Forward Right, Right Middle Punch
Turn 180 Right, Right Low Block
Step Forward Left, Left Middle Punch
Turn Left, Left Low Block
Step Forward Right, Right Middle Punch
Step Forward Left, Left Middle Punch
Step Forward Right, Right Middle Punch
Turn Left 225, Left Low Block
Step Forward Right, Right High Block
Turn Right 90, Right Low Block
Step Forward Left, Left High Block
Turn 45 Left, Right Reverse Punch, Cha!
Step Forward Right, Left Reverse Punch
Step Forward Left, Right Reverse Punch
Step Forward Right, Left Reverse Punch
Turn Left 225, Left Low Block
Step Forward Right, Right High Punch
Turn Right 90, Right Low Block
Step Forward Left, Left High Punch
Return to start with Left
Bow
Attention


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 24, 2005)

Fukyugata Ni

Attention
Bow
Step Out with Right Foot, Pivoting Left On Left Foot Into A Left High Block
Step Forward Right, Right Punch
Sweep Right Arm Into Left Low Block, Stepping Back with Right Foot Into Horse Stance
Looking To Right, Step Out With Left Foot, Right High Block
Sweep Left Arm Into Right Low Block, Stepping Back with Left Foot Into Horse Stance
Step Forward With Left Foot, Left Chest Block
Step Forward With Right Foot, Right Chest Block
Left Front Snap Kick
Left Elbow Strike
Left Low Block
Right Punch, Cha!
Pivoting on both feet, Reverse Stance, Right Knife Hand Block
Step Forward Left, Left Chest Block
Right Front Snap Kick
Right Elbow Strike
Right Low Block
Left Punch 
Pivoting on both feet, Reverse Stance, Left Knife Hand Block
Bring Right Foot Up To Left Foot
Reach Forward, Right Wrist Over Left, Grab And Pull Back To Left, Stepping Back With Left Foot
Right Backfist
Double Punch, Right Fist Low
Bring Left Foot Up To Right Foot
Reach Forward, Left Wrist Over Right, Grab And Pull Back To Right, Stepping Back With Right Foot
Left Backfist
Double Punch, Left Fist Low
Return To Attention
Bow
Attention

On these two descriptions, please pardon my abject lack of Japanese terminology.


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## Navarre (Oct 24, 2005)

I can't think of any comparisons because these are the same first two katas I know!  lol


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 24, 2005)

lol 

I suppose I meant between Seieikan and other Okinawan styles.

Brain's a little laggy today.  Sorry.


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## The Kai (Oct 24, 2005)

They both start out like Taihokyou 1 and 2 respectively then go into something different.  Are they tradtional or modified?


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 24, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> They both start out like Taihokyou 1 and 2 respectively then go into something different. Are they tradtional or modified?


 
They're modified, I believe.  I'm struck by the feeling that Seieikan is an Americanization of earlier Shotokan/Okinawan forms.  It's been difficult to get enough time to speak with Sensei on these more in-depth topics.


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## Navarre (Oct 24, 2005)

Seiei Kan is definitely Americanized and has borrowed from Shotokan and Okinawa. If you go to larger tournaments and watch students from other systems, you will see katas that are virtually identical to the Seiei Kan katas. 

I'm not offended by that because Mr. Madden's credentials are completely legitimate, as is the system. All these systems have to come from somewhere.


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## Kosokun (Oct 24, 2005)

Egg,  The forms that you outlined are Fyukyugata Ichi and Ni.  Fyukyugata Ichi was authored by Shoshin Nagamine, the founder of Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu.  Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu and possibly Motobu Ha Shito Ryu do this form, too, but it's called "Ten No Kata".    Fyukyugata Ni, was created by Chojun Miyagi, founder of goju ryu,  and is known in goju as Gekisai Dai Ichi.  Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu does this form and calls it "Chi No Kata".    Rob


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## Navarre (Oct 24, 2005)

Thanks for the information on these katas, Rob. May I ask as to the source of your information?

These are the first two katas in our system, required for the first belt test as well.  After that it goes into a bunch of Pinan katas, which I believe to come from Shotokan. There are more miscellaneous katas beyond that, probably borrowed from different systems.

I take it that Mr. Madden took katas to be a strongly desired component of his system and so incorporated those kata he saw as beneficial. Seiei Kan is very much an "open" system, incorporating whatever works towards the desired end. Therefore, this fits with the system's principles.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 24, 2005)

Kosokun said:
			
		

> Egg, The forms that you outlined are Fyukyugata Ichi and Ni. Fyukyugata Ichi was authored by Shoshin Nagamine, the founder of Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu. Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu and possibly Motobu Ha Shito Ryu do this form, too, but it's called "Ten No Kata". Fyukyugata Ni, was created by Chojun Miyagi, founder of goju ryu, and is known in goju as Gekisai Dai Ichi. Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu does this form and calls it "Chi No Kata". Rob


 
As I'm at work and cannot reference the material, is this the same Ten No Kata that I recall seeing in Funakoshi's text, Nyumon?


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## Kosokun (Oct 24, 2005)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> As I'm at work and cannot reference the material, is this the same Ten No Kata that I recall seeing in Funakoshi's text, Nyumon?


   No, it's not.    Funakoshi's Ten no kata is a two person pre-arranged kumite drill.    Utilizing Sensei Google, I find:   _4. Ten-no Kata (basic application)  These basic exercises teach you how to apply the technique in relation to a partner. The partner executes an agreed attack to which you exercise a specific defence and counter. The skill developed is to learn to follow the trajectory of the partners attack and to apply a defensive technique in time and to gain maximum efficiency from it and to understand what counter technique will work.  Skills like how to move in a fast, yet physically relaxed manner; how to punch, kick or deflect attacks -all of these are covered in a systematic manner. _  (From: http://www.karatedoshotokai.com/clubs/oxford/training.asp)  Fyukyukata: There are mpegs on the site of Fyukyukata as well as other Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu kata.   http://web1.38231.vs.webtropia.com/indexen.html  Remember: Fyukyukata ichi = Ten no kata of Hayashi Ha Fyukyukata ni = Chi no kata of Hayashi Ha and Gekisai Dai Ichi of Goju.  Rob


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 24, 2005)

Domo


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## Kosokun (Oct 24, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> Thanks for the information on these katas, Rob. May I ask as to the source of your information?


  Oh my.     Mr. Nagamine's book, "The essence of Okinawan Karate do" .  Mr. Nagamine says he created Fyukyukata ichi and that Miyagi created Fyukyukata ni.   My bo instr. was a rokudan in Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu.  He taught me fyukyukata ichi and ni.  My karate instructor used to be one of the biggies in Hayashi Ha and we did Ten no kata and Chi no kata.  My wife did Goju with Gosei Yamaguchi.   Didn't take a lot of horsepower to compare the various kata and reach the conclusion that fyukyukata 1 = Ten no kata.  Fyukyukata 2 = chi no kata = gekisai dai ichi.    





> These are the first two katas in our system, required for the first belt test as well.  After that it goes into a bunch of Pinan katas, which I believe to come from Shotokan. There are more miscellaneous katas beyond that, probably borrowed from different systems.
> 
> I take it that Mr. Madden took katas to be a strongly desired component of his system and so incorporated those kata he saw as beneficial. Seiei Kan is very much an &quot;open&quot; system, incorporating whatever works towards the desired end. Therefore, this fits with the system's principles.


  Nothing wrong in my book with Mr. Madden taking a kata or katas from other systems and incorporating them into his syllabus.     Rob


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## Navarre (Oct 24, 2005)

Ouch, Rob. Your explanation gave me a migraine. lol Thanks for clarifying though. I didn't doubt the legitimacy of your information but, as it is more than I previously knew, I was curious as to the source.

I don't think there's anything wrong with taking any element that works and using in one's system. I suppose some purists may disagree however. 

I was once considering joining a local kung fu school. I was told that I could not attend because I had studied a previous system and held a black belt. They said their sifu's techniques were copyrighted and confidential to their system. 

Apparently he finally mastered jumping over clouds or teleportation or something. Can't say I understood how any technique could be so incredibly innovative that no one had figured it out in the 2000 years before this guy. ... I never bothered with them after that.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 24, 2005)

Indeed, thank you for the clarification.  It is immensely helpful to me that you included the texts this information is from.  I could take the time to scour the shelves, pouring over every karate text I can find in order to better understand may art; but, honestly, such pointers save an enormous amount of time.  

Again, Thank you.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 26, 2005)

Kosokun said:
			
		

> Fyukyukata: There are mpegs on the site of Fyukyukata as well as other Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu kata. http://web1.38231.vs.webtropia.com/indexen.html Remember: Fyukyukata ichi = Ten no kata of Hayashi Ha Fyukyukata ni = Chi no kata of Hayashi Ha and Gekisai Dai Ichi of Goju. Rob


 
This site is a treasure trove.  I feel a little guilty viewing the video because I wonder if I should learn the kata ONLY from class.  Nonetheless, thank you for this.


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## Navarre (Oct 26, 2005)

That is a great site for sure. Thanks! 

Hey, Egg, on a different thread I mentioned a move that I didn't understand at first. You can see it on the Pinan Sandan video at 17 seconds into the clip. Looking at it now it looks rather obvious but when I was a green belt I just scratched my head and followed directions.

I wouldn't worry about viewing the katas either. I doubt you're going to use this as your primary learning source. Also, although the first 2 Ko Sutemi katas are identical as I learned them, there is more and more deviation in the upper katas. 

This may be only a product of my own training, far removed as we were from direct contact with Mr. Madden back in those days. However, it is indeed a different system so they may have been changed up bit. 

Perhaps yet another offense to kata purists, I don't know, especially considering the katas history. Still, even though this site seems thorough, I can't say for sure that Sensei Shindt is himself doing the kata exactly the same as it was done in 1683.

Still a great site though. Thanks, Kosokun.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 27, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> Still, even though this site seems thorough, I can't say for sure that Sensei Shindt is himself doing the kata exactly the same as it was done in 1683.


 
I don't expect this or any other art is going to remain unchanged for that length of time.  If things do not grow, they falter and fade.

On another point, Sensei Phillips does not require us to join the AKJU in order to train with him.  That's an option I plan to take on beginning in January.  We have an AKJU tourney coming up in Dec, as well, which I plan to attend.  This has been a thin week for training.  Birthdays and church band and kid's activities.  I've been able to train some on my own; but, I sure notice the absence of training in the dojo.


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## Navarre (Oct 27, 2005)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I've been able to train some on my own; but, I sure notice the absence of training in the dojo.


 
Regardless of rank or experience, working out alone is never as beneficial as dojo training. It's certainly never as interesting. But you'll be back on the floor in no time. 

I agree with you that anyone who believes an art will remain truly unchanged over centuries is fooling themselves. Although the advent of video and other recordable media makes the situation much better, there is inevitably going to be some variance in translation between people over the course of time.

I would certainly prefer to work on the exact kata created centuries before. However, it is more important to me that the intention, perspective, and integrity of the techniques therein is what's preserved.

It was good to see these katas performed by a skilled practioner from a different system. Do you find that Sensei Shindt changes the level of his movement, meaning more vertical change up and down when moving, than what you're being taught?


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 27, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> It was good to see these katas performed by a skilled practioner from a different system. Do you find that Sensei Shindt changes the level of his movement, meaning more vertical change up and down when moving, than what you're being taught?


 
I haven't had the opportunity to view all the kata; but, without a doubt; at least, within the first three kata a steady head heighth is emphasized.  Danny has us attempt to maintain a level head while practicing basic kata.  He teaches (at my level) that head, shoulder and arm movement are a dead giveaway to your opponent and should, therefore, be minimized or eliminated.    

Beyond the Fukyugata, I cannot say with any certainty.  We have done Pinan Shodan once in class.  The video at Sensei Sindt's page seems the same, though I do not recall the changes in stance in the latter half, especially, of the form.


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## Kosokun (Oct 27, 2005)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Beyond the Fukyugata, I cannot say with any certainty. We have done Pinan Shodan once in class. The video at Sensei Sindt's page seems the same, though I do not recall the changes in stance in the latter half, especially, of the form.



I've not seen Coach Madden's Pinans, but you may want to take a look at the Heian kata on www.Shitokai.com

Heian is the Japanese pronunciation for the kanji used in Pinan.  Pinan is the Okinawan dialect's pronunciation.  So, Heian = Pinan.

Rob


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## Navarre (Oct 27, 2005)

BlackCatBonz, the answer unfortunately seems to be "yes", at least in his mind. I'm honestly just going to ignore the whole thing. it isn't the least bit productive or respectful and deserve no further commentary. Thanks for stepping up though.

Egg, we were also taught to maintain consistent shoulder/head level. The eye notices vertical movement much easier than lateral movement. Changes of height are telegraphing a change in position. 

Consequently, in my stances I set just slightly low. Not much just a tad. It allows me to create a stronger drive into my opponent while still maintaining balance, shoulder level, and freedom to change angles if need be.

This would seem to be a component of Seiei Kan that is slightly different than that of Shorin Ryu. And, I daresay, one could analyze either principle with equal validity regardless of where it came from.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 27, 2005)

I prefer a lower stance, sort of a half horse stance.  I have plenty of power in my legs and can rise in pretty fast.

Telegraphing movements seems a common enough thing in new students.  I have to concentrate hard to keep from shifting my arm back before a strike especially.  Relaxing through the shoulders has minimized some of this movement nicely.


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## Navarre (Oct 27, 2005)

If your shoulder relaxation is in any way a result of my early suggestion to you, then I am glad to hear it helped. It has certainly always helped me a great deal.

I usually wasn't aware of how much tension I had in my shoulders until I focused on it. Sometimes even in a fight I will take a second (during the time between engagement) to sigh and relax. It always helps.

As for maintaining consistent shoulder height, it is indeed a common problem in beginners. I always advise my students to find a mirror (full length if available) and practice their forward movement. Watching yourself in the mirror can show you if you are telegraphing.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 27, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> If your shoulder relaxation is in any way a result of my early suggestion to you, then I am glad to hear it helped. It has certainly always helped me a great deal.


 
It was.  Thank you.



			
				Navarre said:
			
		

> As for maintaining consistent shoulder height, it is indeed a common problem in beginners. I always advise my students to find a mirror (full length if available) and practice their forward movement. Watching yourself in the mirror can show you if you are telegraphing.


 
I've been able to isolate errors with the vidcam I started using.  It's been beneficial.


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## Navarre (Oct 27, 2005)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I've been able to isolate errors with the vidcam I started using. It's been beneficial.


 
Yes, I haven't started using the vid cam to record students yet but had condisered the idea. It would make for excellent training tapes b/c the student could step back from themselves and see what is really going on.

It would also make for a wonderful video scrapbook for that student. I wish I had tapes of all my years of training. It would be interesting to watch myself learning Pinan Shodan.


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## Kosokun (Oct 27, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> However, Mr. Madden is quite accomplished and recognized. Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan is a legitimate system.



Just in case there may have been any misunderstandings, Mr. Madden is a friend of mine. He is indeed quite accomplished.  I have a great deal of warmth and respect for him.  

Rob


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 27, 2005)

i both love and hate to watch myself on video. even when someone has told me ive done a great job on the kata, i can only see the bad parts.
it is an excellent gauge of progress, although i would be frightened to see what i looked like when i first started.......i was told it was akin to watching a choo choo train roll down the track.


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## Navarre (Oct 27, 2005)

Kosokun said:
			
		

> Just in case there may have been any misunderstandings, Mr. Madden is a friend of mine. Rob


 
I didn't misunderstand or even disagree with you, Rob. I have no problem with anything you've said. In fact, quite the contrary. You have improved this thread greatly with your link contribution.  Thank you.

But, yes, let's just move on and stay on topic. We've said what we need to say unless someone drops back in to fan the flames.

As for the video record, yeah, it would be embarrassing and funny to watch myself during some of the earlier tapes. But I'd mentioned that my sensei had shown us tapes of himself as a yellow belt. Although we all had a good laugh I also gained more respect for him. 

He wasn't hiding behind rank or words but instead opening himself up to the same evaluation we all place ourselves under. I found it to be very decent and have approached my own classes the same way.

That, in my mind, is one of those legitimate aspects of which I spoke. I wonder how many classes make use of video cameras? Maybe someone should start a thread.


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Oct 28, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> Egg, we were also taught to maintain consistent shoulder/head level. The eye notices vertical movement much easier than lateral movement. Changes of height are telegraphing a change in position.
> 
> This would seem to be a component of Seiei Kan that is slightly different than that of Shorin Ryu. And, I daresay, one could analyze either principle with equal validity regardless of where it came from.


Yes, the changes in height are one of the more obvious differences between Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu and Seiei-kan. The difference (I believe) lies in the bunkai taught in the respective systems. Shorin-ryu often teaches that the rise in stance which accompanies an upper block in some places indicates not a block, but a joint attack. Essentially, the chambering hand holds the attacker's wrist, and the other arm strikes up under the attacker's elbow. The raise in stance augments the upward striking motion of the arm. In Seiei-kan, it's usually taught as a block with (as stated) no change in stance height. 
Of course, I could be wrong. I don't study Shorin-ryu and only studied Seiei-kan briefly in the mid 70s.
Anyway, it's something to mull over  .


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## Navarre (Oct 28, 2005)

Yes, tshadowchaser, as I thanked flatlander I also extend my thanks to you. This not because I am from the system in question but simply because I want to talk about martial arts, not argue. I have a wife for that. Sorry you have to be involved.

Randy, I understand what you mean. If the Shorin-ryu technique is a strike under the elbow then the change in level makes sense.

You are right that it is solely a block in Seiei Kan. One of the things I've never liked quite as well about Seiei Kan katas is that the technique seem so separated. They make sense but they are in many places isolated from the subsequent technique instead of incorporated. I still believe in the concept of maintaining shoulder level but would agree that the level change works best for the technique as you described it.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 31, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> One of the things I've never liked quite as well about Seiei Kan katas is that the technique seem so separated. They make sense but they are in many places isolated from the subsequent technique instead of incorporated. I still believe in the concept of maintaining shoulder level but would agree that the level change works best for the technique as you described it.


 
Navarre:
I've noticed a little of this, myself; eg: kata or practice punch vs. kumite punch, specifically.  The practice punch is a rotating strike, fist is knuckles down at side and rotates to knuckles up for the strike.  In kumite, thee fist is held thumb side up and strike is direct, only extending the arm.  

Should there not be a more direct relationship between kata and kumite?


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 31, 2005)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> hmmm...Gene is all cancelled. I thought it was a little quiet around here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
1. "corkscrewing" your punch helps with penetration.....some people may want to disagree with me on this point, however it is all in "when" you corkscrew your hand. the moment your hand makes contact is when the motion should take place.
2. that all depends on what you mean....the techniques in kata are applicable to kumite, but IMO their most important value lies in teaching correct "form". there isnt a single movement in a kata that should be overlooked, it represents harmony and efficacy in motion.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 31, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> 1. "corkscrewing" your punch helps with penetration.....some people may want to disagree with me on this point, however it is all in "when" you corkscrew your hand. the moment your hand makes contact is when the motion should take place.
> 2. that all depends on what you mean....the techniques in kata are applicable to kumite, but IMO their most important value lies in teaching correct "form". there isnt a single movement in a kata that should be overlooked, it represents harmony and efficacy in motion.


 
1) I can see that effectiveness.  This was the point I was considering when I posted.  In competition and sparring, Sensei wants us to through a straight punch.  In kata, the corkscrew...

2) I do not minimize or marginalize kata.  I'm really serious about it and I practice them thoroughly.  I was just noticing the difference between kata and kumite, specifically the punch and I was wondering if that sort of divergence is typical or common.


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 31, 2005)

i guess the divergence all depends on your teacher......in theory and practice i perform the punch the same way. 
performing the punch with the corkscrew though is a specific type of weapon for specific types of jobs and should be used accordingly. 
a straight punch is a different type of weapon....different type of job. straight punches are great for  subterfuge or off balancing before you throw a good gyaku-zuki to the stomach.
the best thing would be to ask your sensei why the differences ......his explanation might be far different.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 31, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i guess the divergence all depends on your teacher......in theory and practice i perform the punch the same way.
> performing the punch with the corkscrew though is a specific type of weapon for specific types of jobs and should be used accordingly.
> a straight punch is a different type of weapon....different type of job. straight punches are great for subterfuge or off balancing before you throw a good gyaku-zuki to the stomach.
> the best thing would be to ask your sensei why the differences ......his explanation might be far different.


 
I will do that.  I will extrapolate his reason will be along the lines of competition effectivess and, as you said, subterfuge.  The economy of movement between the two is easily seen.


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## Navarre (Oct 31, 2005)

The reverse punch as you described in the kata is a different technique than the one used in sparring. I think the separation on usage has a lot to do with Seiei Kan's focus on tournament kumite.

A point is given for contact with the puch regardless of rotated or not. Therefore, economy of motion becomes key.

However, in a real situation one must be cognizant of the desired target and effect of the punch. 

For example, a solar plexus strike would benefit more from a rotating punch. This would bring the knuckle deeper into the solar plexus, leaving less chance to catch on the xyphoid process (the small bone projection at the bottom of the sternum). Also, because the rotating punch is designed to be thrown at solar plexus level (on the mid-punch) it will naturally strike at a slight downward angle, thus creating the desired effect on a solar plexus strike.

Conversely, we have the "blitz-punch". This is just my term for it because I throw this punch a lot when I blitz the opponent. It is short, effective, and harder to detect or divert. That alone creates certain advantages for it. 

A rotating punch, because of the rotation, is easier to bypass than a rotating punch. This is because the elbow ends up on the outside of the arm, which is easier to divert than the bottom elbow of the blitz punch.

The blitz punch is quick to the target which makes it good for the surprise strike as well as a lead-in strike. Since I use it to blitz, I strike with it but am prepared to fire off the next technique. The rotating punch works well when the opponent is coming to you instead because of the extra penetration.

The blitz punch works well on vertical targets such as the brachial nerve centers underneath the arm. For this reason I also sometimes sweep an arm not only away from me (enough to miss me anyway) but also at an upward angle. This opens up the nerve center for the quick strike as well as removing most potential counter-movements of that opponent's arm except an elbow strike.

Both are useful strikes, just different. In kata I consisitently see the rotating punch. I believe this is most likely because it is the more traditional strike and so was incorporated into the kata. In kumite, I say it's whatever gets the job done.


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## The Kai (Oct 31, 2005)

If I may...,
Your corkscrew punch and your "kumite" punch are in reality the same punch.  They happen to have different points of origin.  With your hand at your hip the path/motion would be as the punch "rockets" forward your arm starts its rotation.  Freeze frame half into the punch you have a half exrended and half rotated punch.  Line your body up in a kumite dachi and Bam there is your sparring posture , Right?


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 31, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> If I may...,
> Your corkscrew punch and your "kumite" punch are in reality the same punch. They happen to have different points of origin. With your hand at your hip the path/motion would be as the punch "rockets" forward your arm starts its rotation. Freeze frame half into the punch you have a half exrended and half rotated punch. Line your body up in a kumite dachi and Bam there is your sparring posture , Right?


 
Close.  The insistence in kumite is fists loose and up, defending the face, elbows drawn in almost tight with the abdomen.  Fist to elbow line perpendicular to the floor.


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 31, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> If I may...,
> Your corkscrew punch and your "kumite" punch are in reality the same punch. They happen to have different points of origin. With your hand at your hip the path/motion would be as the punch "rockets" forward your arm starts its rotation. *Freeze frame half into the punch you have a half exrended and half rotated punch.* Line your body up in a kumite dachi and Bam there is your sparring posture , Right?


 
while this is entirely true, the point at which the hand is to be twisted is debated a lot.
im a believer in the twist at point of contact, other people teach that the twist is done as the punch moves from its chambered position on its way to the intended target because it increases the distance the punch is travelling to gain more energy and momentum.
i personally think the twisting contact causes more damage even though it elongates contact somewhat.

these are my opinions though


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## Navarre (Oct 31, 2005)

Although at some stage in the rotating punch you would have the half punch, it is still utilized as two different strikes. I'm _almost_ in agreement with BCBonz about the rotation.

Rotating the punch entirely prior to striking is wasting the point of the rotation. If the punch is no longer rotating then the rotation itself served very little purpose.

However, I don't think the punch should rotate after it hits either. Once again, the rotation becomes a separate movement.

In the same way a rising block completes its rotation _as_ it makes impact, a punch should do the same. The full impact and rotation of the punch should occur simultaneously, not separately.


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 31, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> Although at some stage in the rotating punch you would have the half punch, it is still utilized as two different strikes. I'm _almost_ in agreement with BCBonz about the rotation.
> 
> Rotating the punch entirely prior to striking is wasting the point of the rotation. If the punch is no longer rotating then the rotation itself served very little purpose.
> 
> ...


 
thats precisely what i was trying to say.


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## Navarre (Oct 31, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> thats precisely what i was trying to say.


 
Then I'm with ya!


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## OnlyAnEgg (Nov 2, 2005)

Ok...it's back to class tonight.  Missed Monday because of Halloween.  My off day workouts have been 

three basic blocks, 100x with 2 lb weights
Middle, Upper and Hook punches 100x, no weights
Upper body light weights 20x-50x, low weight, 2 sets
Katas, Fug ich and ni 5x
Kicks, front, side, back and roundhouse 10x x 3 sets

It's been a tough couple weeks making it to class.  Too much family stuff going on.  I should be back to 3x week next week, though.


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## The Kai (Nov 2, 2005)

Dude that's a great workout

I admire your zeal


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## OnlyAnEgg (Nov 2, 2005)

well, I try to do something well-rounded when I can't make class.  And, I need to say, that's not all at once.  The upper body, kata and kicks are done in a group; then, after a bit of cooling down, I'll do the punches and blocks.  They tire me; but, the weights make for speed, I'm told.  Much later, I'll do some stretching watching the tube.  At 44, I need to do what I can when I can or significant progress won't materialize.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Nov 4, 2005)

Last night, we began Pinan Shodan.  I added shuto uke to my regular workout as I feel like a dork when I do it; no confidence in exectuting it with force.  In Fugyugata ni, it was a smooth, slow move.

Pinan means peaceful mind and that is appropriate.  It is my current experience that MA is a perfect outlet for life's aggravations, harangues and harassments.  Lately, a one from my past has risen, full-force, to cause me difficulty by any means (currently, it seems to be perjury and fraud).  The frustration associated with these events is, indeed, massive.  By concentrating and focusing on my MA training, I have been able to disperse these emotions in a healthy fashion.  Further, with just a bit more effort, I am beginning to achieve similar control when it pops up and I am not in class.

I am grateful to MA for showing me a path to this control and near-peace.


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Nov 6, 2005)

OK, back to topic. 
A thought on the vertical vs. twist punch in Seiei-kan. Egg, you said your instructor studied under George Annarino. I know that both he and Don Madden were boxers in their youth. Perhaps this is the reason why they embrace the vertical fist punch in sparring. Of course, several other arts use it as well (Isshin-ryu springs to mind). Just something to think about.

Sorry, I'm all verklempt. Talk among yourselves.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Nov 7, 2005)

Randy Strausbaugh said:
			
		

> OK, back to topic.
> A thought on the vertical vs. twist punch in Seiei-kan. Egg, you said your instructor studied under George Annarino. I know that both he and Don Madden were boxers in their youth. Perhaps this is the reason why they embrace the vertical fist punch in sparring. Of course, several other arts use it as well (Isshin-ryu springs to mind). Just something to think about.
> 
> Sorry, I'm all verklempt. Talk among yourselves.


 
Yes, Not only was Mr. Annarino a boxer, he was raised by a boxer.  I can't deny the effectiveness, in kumite, of the straight jab.  

On another topic, I purchased Karate-Do Kyohan this weekend.  A wholly remarkable book.  Now, I have both of Funakoshi's seminal texts on karate.  Having read through the first part, I can see how invaluable they will be to me.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Nov 20, 2005)

Last night, I fixed Sensei's PC.  While it was updating and installing and blah-diddy-blah, I took the time to practice for today's competition, my 2nd competition.

I'm a white belt in Seieikan and I don't really expect much from my skill level...Only An Egg, you know; but, today, I was pleased with myself.

Of course, The Little Dragons all went first.  It's inspiring to see these little ones, 3-5 years old, repeating the Little Dragon Creed and performing their kata and basics.  It's good to know they're getting lessons in honor and dedication so young; lessons that will continue to endure long into their lives.

I performed Fukyugata Ni cause it makes my wife happy   I had two competitors in my class, this time; both very skilled.  I accepted first place 

Kumite was interesting. I went up against the same karateka as I did on my first competition.  It was another hard fight; but, he took the silver this time, again W00t for me!

As I took two 1st places, I was entered into the Grand Champion competition.  We all performed Fukyugata Ich for the trophy.  I now have a trophy in my house. 

It was a good competition.

My stepdaughter competed for the first time today.  She recieved the gold in kata and 2nd place, overall, in her class.  I am very _very_ proud of her.


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## Navarre (Nov 20, 2005)

Congratulations, Egg!!!

Ma, sounds like you and your daughter both are off on a rockin' start with the tournament scene. Tournaments are a lot of fun. It gives us a chance to place ourselves under a bit of safe pressure and see what we can do. Looks to me like you do just fine.

One of my students (a tad older than me) started Ko Sutemi in 1989 or so along with his 6 year old daughter. A few years ago they had to build a new room on their house just to hold all their tournament trophies (No lie!).

Here's to your future home expansion!  Glad you had fun, buddy!


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## OnlyAnEgg (Nov 20, 2005)

Arigato, Navarre 

We're all very pleased by the way we competed.  My next goal is to get my stepdaughter to fight and my stepson to compete kata.  My wife will do as she wishes when she wishes 

On that note, my wife discovered that one of today's judges teaches a Muay Thai class 3 days a week and our GrandSensei's dojo.  She's looking into that seriously.  That's all I need...my wife Ong-Baking my butt.

heheh

Edit: I put the pics in the Gallery and on the bloggy thing


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## Navarre (Nov 20, 2005)

Nice pics, Egg. Your kumite form looks very good indeed. 

You're protecting your chin and are nicely loaded for the reverse puch. Lots of guys don't keep their hands up or their elbows in. You're doing both. Good job! 

Some of your kata pics are blurred, clearly indicating to me that you possess superhuman speed. Your ability to move faster than the human eye can follow will surely serve you well when you spar for yellow belt.

I don't have nearly as many pics from my early years as I'd like. I have a few bits of old video (back when video cameras weighed a ton and took a whole bag just to hold the battery!).

It's funny (and humbling) to look back at some of the stuff. Mostly because of my scrawny nerdiness that I tried to defy by wearing my hair in a long ponytail. (It didn't work!).

I've never competed much in tournaments, unlike my student I mentioned. Still, I did come in second place in my weight division in the black belt sparring 2 yrs in a row at The State Championship. 

Once I came in second in the black belt overall finals (so second for the whole tournament). The techniques I'd learned years earlier from Tokey Hill really served me excellently.  I was lucky to get to learn such things as the Blitz from him.  

I had a lot of fun at the tournaments and that's what counts. I'm glad you did too.


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## The Kai (Nov 21, 2005)

It looked like you had fun, and did well.  Congradulations


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## OnlyAnEgg (Nov 21, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> You're protecting your chin and are nicely loaded for the reverse puch. Lots of guys don't keep their hands up or their elbows in. You're doing both. Good job!


 
After a few days of Sensei's flank and belly punches, I learned to tuck my elbows in.



			
				Navarre said:
			
		

> Some of your kata pics are blurred, clearly indicating to me that you possess superhuman speed. Your ability to move faster than the human eye can follow will surely serve you well when you spar for yellow belt.


 
I had hoped the camera wouldn't catch that...it needs to be kept secret.



			
				Navarre said:
			
		

> I don't have nearly as many pics from my early years as I'd like. I have a few bits of old video (back when video cameras weighed a ton and took a whole bag just to hold the battery!).
> 
> It's funny (and humbling) to look back at some of the stuff. Mostly because of my scrawny nerdiness that I tried to defy by wearing my hair in a long ponytail. (It didn't work!).
> 
> ...


 
I plan to compete as much as possible because I find it a singular joy to do so; albeit, a nerve-wracking one.  Both times, it's been like that time right before a first date: apprehensive about what may or may not occur.  The competitions, though, have been wonderful experiemces, unlike most of my first dates.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 1, 2005)

Long time since I posted to this thread.

Classes are going well.  I practice almost every day there's no class.

Here's a thing, though, and it concerns me: last night, Sensei said that, when we compete outside of Seieikan, we should remove our org patches because we will be judged detrimentally because of the style.  Is this commen in MA, to be of a derided style or to be treated thus?  It makes me go 'hmmmmm'.


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## Navarre (Dec 1, 2005)

I have sometimes found that tournaments judge ppl unfairly when from a different system. This isn't unique to Seiei Kan though. It has a lot to do with who has organized the tournament and who the judges are.

I have gone to tournaments where all the judges were from or affiliated with the school of the one who organized the tournament. In almost every instance, only their ppl won the gold.  

One of our black belts did an outstanding bo kata that blew everyone away. She tied with a person also doing bo from the host school. They redid their kata and the judges gave the nod to our student...but the host sensei overruled it. He claimed that her bo was an inch too long for her height and gave the award to the other student (who happened to be his star pupil).

This kind of discrimination is disgusting. It is completely against all that we are taught.

Still, I remind myself (and my students) that we are competing to do our best. That is not necessarily the same as winning. It shouldn't be like that, but it is.

Tournaments, like schools, are a terribly political creature. Despite this, I have never failed to wear my patches with pride. 

However, some tournaments have specific rules regarding patches so of course I adhere to those. There's nothing wrong with wearing a plain white gi if you choose. 

Win or lose (patch or not) just go, do your best, and have fun.


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## Navarre (Dec 1, 2005)

On a side note, I'd like to say that this is a really good thread. I'm glad to see it's continuing because it goes beyond just one style and addresses a lot of what newer students question when first choosing an art.

I'm glad it was nominated for Most Helpful Post. I didn't nominate it myself so it's nice that someone else likes it.

Obviously I'll vote for it and force all of my students to vote for it. After all, we're from the same system and we should only support and acknowledge others from our system. ... At least that's the lesson I'd learned from a black belt at a tournament somewhere.  *sarcastic grin*


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## The Kai (Dec 1, 2005)

I've heard the same comment about competeing and also while doing seminars.  To date I've never taken my patchs off any uniform.  You don't like my patchs, tough nuggies


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 1, 2005)

lol...thanks, Navarre.  I just wasn't certain what to think after Sensei's comment.  It was a disconcerting piece of information.

Re: this thread.  It has been a constant source of good information for a beginner such as myself.  Thanks to you and everyone that's posted to it.  I am grateful.  :asian:


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 2, 2005)

Okay...after verifying funds with my CFO (read: wife), I am on for the tournament tomorrow. It's a big one compared to the two I've already done. I'm anticipating a Karate Kid size competition. A little nervous. A little apprehensive. That's ok, though. 

I think.

Here's the link to the form showing the levels of competition. Just a jpeg of the reg form; but, it gives some idea what I'm walking into.


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## Navarre (Dec 2, 2005)

Lower levels seemed best defined by the variety found. These are all of the ppl who have hung in long enough to shw up at a tournament but before anyone has decided it's not for them.

I'd expect to see some promising competitors but also a lot of ppl who are stiff and/or with wild form. 

This is a good time to work on the relaxation I mentioned.  If you try to be *too* technical and perfect you'll be too preoccupied with your own form and will be one of those mechanical-looking competitors.

Your division could take a long time so be ready for it. I wouldn't worry about reviewing your opponents and all of that. Just move around some, watch what you like, and maybe make some new friends.

Which kata are you doing? Fuku-gata-ni? If you only know this and Ichi, the second one tends to look nice. It is also easier to hide any mechanical movement.

I'll look forward to hearing how it goes. Is your daughter competing too?


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 2, 2005)

Thanks, Navarre...relaxing my shoulders, hiding my intent has been an integral part of my practice lately.  I'm not as nervous now as I was when I posted.  My bag's packed, uniform's ready, all is good in the earth right now.

I'm doing Fukugata ni, yes...of the two, I like it better and, you're right, it's easier to be fluid in that kata...plus, my wife REALLY likes to see me do that one 

My stepdaughter is not competing...she said the last one made her nervous enough.  In her time.

As for me, I plan to see how the process works at this level and to observe as much as I can.  I'm hoping to enjoy the higher-belt kumite and weapons kata.  I imagibe it will be a long day.  I'll be there at 9:30.  Sensei (who is also competing) sez we'll be staying late, as well.

Until tomorrow, then!


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## Navarre (Dec 2, 2005)

Depending on the hosy, most tournaments start with black belt weapon and open-hand katas as well as synchronized katas (if the tournament has it). Then they start with the lowest ranks and work their way up.

In larger tournaments they will have 5 or 6 rings going at the same time to help move things along. The black belt kumite should be last.

Usually the black belt kumite is divided down into 3 weight classes plus a Seniors (age 35+) division. Then, the winnder of those 4 divisions will compete against each other to get the Grand Champion in black belt kumite.

Now I'm old enough that I actually get to pick whether I want to compete with the 35+ black belts (often those 5th degree types who flow like water and hit like tanks) or in the middleweight division (the young bucks half my age who are in it to win).  From past experience, I prefer the Senior division. They are better technically but aren't as convinced they have to take your head home as a trophy.

Fun, Fun! Is your step-daughter going to go watch at least or is she taking a break?


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 2, 2005)

Truth be told, I will be competing in the Senior Novice Division.  I'm an old toddler...heheh.  Thing is, I don't have to take my competitor's head home as a trophy; but, I will, if I have to 

I have no idea how many rings; but, the flyer stated very clearly that I must have kumite competition in my division in order to qualify for Grand Champion.  This suggests that there my be a less than stellar across-the-board showing.  We'll see.

My goil, she be not wanting to spend 8 hours at comp...I suppose I can't blame her.  And it WILL be fun


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## Navarre (Dec 2, 2005)

Since this is your first big tournament I suggest you take some time to get a feel for who the "top dog" is amongst the black belts. Most likely he or she will be an older individual of high rank and good-natured demeanor.

Then, during a time when many of the general public are around, openly approach this person. Claim your ability to be far superior to his and make a few derogatory remarks about both his school and his mamma. Then challenge him to open combat in the middle of the tournament floor.

This is a great way to get your name known amongst many schools. I think you will find this event to be most...educational.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 2, 2005)

That sounds reasonable.  I will try it!

Should my selection be the largest or just the one that commands the most subservience?


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## The Kai (Dec 3, 2005)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> That sounds reasonable. I will try it!
> 
> Should my selection be the largest or just the one that commands the most subservience?


 
You should be able to find him easy by the pissing he's done to mark his territory.  Follow the smell.....


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 3, 2005)

Well...that was a long day.  I got to the comp at 9:30 and left after Sensei competed, about 6:00.

There were about 350 competitors in kumite, randori, grappling, kata and weapons.  There were 2 or 3 Haedong competitors, several Tai Chi and one gentleman, whom I didn't get to speak to, competing with Chinese broadsword.

I took 2nd in kata, 35-44 and
2nd in kumite, 35-44

I did not do a weapons form; but, I'm pulling out the chucks and will compete 3 for 3 next tourney.

This...was fun!

And no one pissed anywhere unnecessarily.


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## Navarre (Dec 3, 2005)

It sounds like you made a great showing, Egg. Congratulations!!

How many ppl just in your division? ... Not that it matters too much. Apparently only 1 person gave you a run for your money.

Review all the tapes of his competition. Train 16-18 hrs per day (this may require quitting your job but you have to have your priorities straight).  Run up snow-covered mountains, wrestle oxen, that sort of thing. 

Then, next tournament, give the the eye of the tiger and say something to him like, "I will break you." I have faith in you, buddy!


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 3, 2005)

great showing for your first outing.
Navarre gave some good advice about reviewing the tapes, tapes always show what you did good and where improvement can be made


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 3, 2005)

Thanks, all 

'wrestle oxen'  I like that!

I was made painfully aware of my errors, although reviewing the tapes will come in handy, too.  I know I telegraphed a couple times and I closed the gap ineffectively at least twice in the fights.  I'm still not as relaxed as wrestling oxen may make me.

There were 5 in my division.  I got a by for the first round; so, I only fought twice.  The gentleman that beat me, however, was Grand Champion for the division.  It's...ahem...obvious he had to work for it   That match was 3-2.  Right down to the wire.


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## Navarre (Dec 9, 2005)

Many ppl, even some higher ranks, lack the confidence to step in front of 300 ppl and put themselves on display. This is especially true with martial arts because it's something you love but are afraid being judged (literally).  

It is a very individual display and so you really put yourself on the line (literally, again).  One of the several reasons I like tournaments is because it develops the ability to face mental obstacles, to perform under stress, and to own up to who we are. 

A tournament may be as close to a real fight as it is to yodeling but it has its good points too.  I hope you get some company the next time you go to one.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 9, 2005)

I agree with the yodelling analogy.  Competition is the arena, though, where I can place myself in the order, overall (at least for one day).  It's where I can put the teachings I've recieved into practice.  To me, competition, in Seieikan, at least, is integral to the art.

I'm holding myself back from saying cometition should be integral to most MA; but, only because I don't really know it all.


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## Navarre (Dec 9, 2005)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I'm holding myself back from saying cometition should be integral to most MA; but, only because I don't really know it all.


 
That's okay. I still have 2 or 3 days to go before I've learned and mastered all of martial arts myself. There are many styles and thousands of years; it's taken me the better part of a month to master it all.

btw, next time you're shooting in at an angle, try actually going at a close angle against his guard side (the raised blocking hand). The arm is often strong and prepared for a direct assault. However, it's easily tapped out of the way at the elbow. 

If he's an orthodox fighter his left hand will be up at his face. Shoot close to his left arm. Keep your own left up as you come in to protect from a potential left backfist. 

Once inside of his backfist range, pop your left hand down in a short arc and sweep his left arm aside by directing his elbow inward. As simultaneously as possible strike either his head or his now-exposed ribs with your right reverse punch.

Hope it works for you. Have fun!


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 9, 2005)

Oh, _that_ old trick?


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## Navarre (Dec 9, 2005)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Oh, _that_ old trick?


 
Y'see? You really have mastered all of martial arts after all.


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Dec 28, 2005)

Egg, I don't know if this is something which interests you, but I caught wind that Don Madden is trying to arrange a tournament connection in Taiwan, similar to his situation with the Irish Cup. Team members would get transportation and lodging at a discount. 
Just passin' a rumor along  .


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 28, 2005)

Randy Strausbaugh said:
			
		

> Egg, I don't know if this is something which interests you, but I caught wind that Don Madden is trying to arrange a tournament connection in Taiwan, similar to his situation with the Irish Cup. Team members would get transportation and lodging at a discount.
> Just passin' a rumor along  .


 
Thanks, Randy.  That would be an incredible adventure, to be certain.  I'm sure I'll be at some competition that he's at, too, this 1st quarter.  I'll see what he has to say about it.


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## Navarre (Dec 28, 2005)

I've had a few students and senseis attend the Irish Cup. They had a great time. 

I'd recommend going if you get the chance. Tournament stuff aside, it would be a great chance to have a new experience.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 29, 2005)

It's not so much the chance that hinders...it's the $$$.  We're a single income household with 3 kids.  Going to Taiwan or Ireland is still dream-level stuff.


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Jan 27, 2006)

By the way, my infosource told me today that he was mistaken about the locale of the proposed upcoming tourney.  It's supposed to be in Thailand, not Taiwan. 
Sorry for passing bad info.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jan 27, 2006)

Oh...I can't go there, either


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 30, 2006)

Split From Main Kosutemi Seieikan Thread


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 30, 2006)

I moved on to the next two kata this last week, Pinan Shodan and Pinan Nidan.  I am absolutely astounded by the siplicity of Nidan after Shodan.  

Any input from you other Kosutemis as to why the complexity dropped so drastically between the two?


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## Randy Strausbaugh (May 7, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I am absolutely astounded by the siplicity of Nidan after Shodan.


That's why Funakoshi switched the two when teaching his Heian kata (Heian Shodan is a modification of Pinan Nidan, and Heian Nidan is modified Pinan Shodan).


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## twendkata71 (Jul 7, 2006)

*Originally, Pinan nidan was taught first. As in Matsubayashi shorin ryu. I am not sure why the number is higher or why the kata names where switched.  I do know that the old Okinawan version uses hammer fist blocks,instead of the chest block that are taught in our Seiei kan version.  I have studied both.  I have also studied the Shotokan version that also has the hammerfist block. The second block in the Seiei kan version(after the leg block) is more of a backfist strike.*
*A point of interest. In our version of Pinan Yondan. We perform an arm lock instead of the high knife hand block and chest level shuto strike. This shows the Jujitsu influece in our style. *
*Sometimes in kata,especially in the advanced kata, it is hard to figure out what the movements are. You have to study the bunkai(practical applications) to learn what the movements are.  *
*Train hard and study seriously.*


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## searcher (Jul 8, 2006)

Not to step in on your thread, but typically it is the thought that as we advance we need to re-think the basics and everything will go full circle.  Very muchthe same thinking of a BB's belt turning grey and then white as they reach advanced levels.   Just what I have picked up.


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## twendkata71 (Jul 8, 2006)

*Hello Searcher. I see from your profile that you are a chito ryu stylist. Did you train with Hanshi Domitriech? Or are you affiliated with the US Chitokai?  Or the other organization that splintered off? *
*Just curious. I know that since Mr. Domitriech split from the Chitokai in Japan that there have been several splits within the Chito ryu style.*


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jul 9, 2006)

Did anyone attend the interschool tourney in Logan yesterday?  Sensei, Another student and myself went.  There was, easily, a couple hundred competitors.  Some very fine artists and some downright funny moments (broken spear?).

In my bracket, Senior Novice, my fellow student recieved 1st if kumite and second in kata.  I took 1st in kata and 2nd (to him) in kumite.  Sensei Phillips won 1st in weapons.

It was a good day.


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## Lisa (Jul 9, 2006)

Sounds like a damn fine time was had yesterday, Egg!  WhoooHoo!  Way to go my friend!
artyon:


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jul 9, 2006)

Thank you, m'lady


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## twendkata71 (Jul 9, 2006)

*I was planning on going to the interclub tournament. But, I had family matters that had to be addressed. Anyway, I am glad to hear that it was a good tournament. I will be at Nationals in August. I make it to that one every year. I am sorry I missed the interclub. Sounds like it was a good time. Anyone know who won 1st in Black belt kumite?  *
*I used to go to every tournament that I could. Ko Sutemi or other organizations. That gets expensive after a while. The two tournaments that I really love to attend each year are AKJU Nationals and the Arnold Martial arts festival international tournament.  Rick Moore used to put on a really good tournament.  I havn't been in years.  When we were involved with the AAU,then USAKF. It seemed that we had tournaments every other weekend. There was our tournaments and the USAKF tournaments,which went towards their national championships and USA team trials. *


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jul 9, 2006)

The August Nationals...is that one at Westland High School?  That was the first large competition I attended.


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## searcher (Jul 10, 2006)

twendkata71 said:
			
		

> *Hello Searcher. I see from your profile that you are a chito ryu stylist. Did you train with Hanshi Domitriech? Or are you affiliated with the US Chitokai? Or the other organization that splintered off? *
> *Just curious. I know that since Mr. Domitriech split from the Chitokai in Japan that there have been several splits within the Chito ryu style.*


 
I am actually form a different group that splintered off in the 70's, but we have recently started going back to our roots and have left our splinter/parent association.   we are working on getting ourselves back to where we need to be.   It will be a long journey, but one worth taking.


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## twendkata71 (Jul 10, 2006)

I know that Yoshukai and Tsuroka karate where both originally from Chito ryu. Both of the Founders of those styles were students of Chitose.








			
				searcher said:
			
		

> I am actually form a different group that splintered off in the 70's, but we have recently started going back to our roots and have left our splinter/parent association. we are working on getting ourselves back to where we need to be. It will be a long journey, but one worth taking.


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## searcher (Jul 10, 2006)

twendkata71 said:
			
		

> I know that Yoshukai and Tsuroka karate where both originally from Chito ryu. Both of the Founders of those styles were students of Chitose.


 
As were/are many others.  My instructor trained at Yakota Air Base in Japan.   I feel that the way there were so many different martial artists coming and going is how it should have continued.   People traveling around and training with different instructors.   Refining their individual skills and becoming the best that they could be and not so much following only one set way of doing things.   This is where I see to many people getting locke dinto one "style" and not exploring what others have to offer.   They become very narrow-minded and miss out on a great many techniques that others may have.


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## TheHeathen (Jul 11, 2006)

Didn't make it to the Interclub.. Thought about it.. and then realized I wanted to wait until the Nationals in August. 

That's the good one.


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## twendkata71 (Jul 11, 2006)

*I wanted to go to the interclub,but had other obligations. Anyway I am going to be at nationals.   So, back to polishing my kata.   Gambatte.   *





			
				TheHeathen said:
			
		

> Didn't make it to the Interclub.. Thought about it.. and then realized I wanted to wait until the Nationals in August.
> 
> That's the good one.


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## TheHeathen (Jul 13, 2006)

twendkata71 said:
			
		

> *I wanted to go to the interclub,but had other obligations. Anyway I am going to be at nationals.   So, back to polishing my kata.   Gambatte.   *



When the Nationals are over.. since I am working on a new kata as we speak.. We may have to set up a time and get together so I can learn that one.


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## twendkata71 (Jul 13, 2006)

*Gambatte, it not a kata. It is Japanese for "Try harder". *
*I usually do the kata Suparempei. Sometimes I will do Kanku sho,or Seipai. But Suparempei is such a long kata it take forever to get it right.  I like the kata Sochin. But, Larry Zahand has that kata down. One of our black belt from WV beat me last year with Annan. Fantastic kata. If you go on the WKF community web site. You will see that the main kata that have been winning at the world championships are suparempei, gankaku,and unsu. As far as weapons go. I usually do either. Tawada no sai  or Shushi no kon sho or Sakagawa no kon. I don't like to do Tokumine no kon no dai. Everyone is doing that kata. Even though it is one of my favorites. *
*Where exactly is your dojo in Obetz? I work in that area and would love to stop by for a work out sometime and discuss kata. *




			
				TheHeathen said:
			
		

> When the Nationals are over.. since I am working on a new kata as we speak.. We may have to set up a time and get together so I can learn that one.


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## TheHeathen (Jul 13, 2006)

LOL it was kinda a joke.. It's hard to read sarcasm online. 

You know where Chillicothe Street is in Obetz? How about the Rec Center there..


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## twendkata71 (Jul 13, 2006)

[*I think that I know where that is. What nights and times? And, after I typed my response. I figured that you were kiding.   *



quote=TheHeathen]LOL it was kinda a joke.. It's hard to read sarcasm online. 

You know where Chillicothe Street is in Obetz? How about the Rec Center there..[/quote]


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jul 14, 2006)

My school is having a small tournament August 6th and I would like to invite any and all that would like to attend.

The School:
Fairfield Beach Karate
13155 Laurel Rd
Thornville, Ohio 43076
Map

Typically, the comp starts at 12:00-12:30


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## twendkata71 (Jul 14, 2006)

*Sounds great. So, your teacher was a student of Hanshi Annarino?   He has been around for a long time.  *





			
				OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> My school is having a small tournament August 6th and I would like to invite any and all that would like to attend.
> 
> The School:
> Fairfield Beach Karate
> ...


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jul 17, 2006)

twendkata71 said:
			
		

> *Sounds great. So, your teacher was a student of Hanshi Annarino? He has been around for a long time. *


 
Danny tells me he's been teaching Kosutemi for close to 30 years, now.  He and Mr. Annarino go back at least that far.


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## twendkata71 (Jul 21, 2006)

*I thought so.  Good guy.  *





			
				OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Danny tells me he's been teaching Kosutemi for close to 30 years, now. He and Mr. Annarino go back at least that far.


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## twendkata71 (Jul 22, 2006)

*One of Soke Madden's Old Black belts, I know him by the nickname Tommy Thai.  Does anyone know his real name?  He is a really good martial artist.  All around good guy.*


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## twendkata71 (Jul 25, 2006)

*Anyone have nunchaku ichi on video tape?  If you do please contact me. *


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## OnlyAnEgg (Aug 7, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> My school is having a small tournament August 6th and I would like to invite any and all that would like to attend.
> 
> The School:
> Fairfield Beach Karate
> ...


 
The tourney was a fair success.  I was the only one in my division; so, not surprisingly, I swept my division!  lol.

I did, however, have to do a kata and fight to obtain my uncontested first place.  My competitor was a 15 year old Brown Belt whom I did, in fact, whoop   He's about 4 inches taller and a little heavier than I.  It was a good fight 

Belt test tonight!


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## twendkata71 (Aug 9, 2006)

*Congradulations. Sorry I missed it. I frankly forgot about the tourney. I have been spending most of my time getting ready for Nationals.*






			
				OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> The tourney was a fair success. I was the only one in my division; so, not surprisingly, I swept my division! lol.
> 
> I did, however, have to do a kata and fight to obtain my uncontested first place. My competitor was a 15 year old Brown Belt whom I did, in fact, whoop  He's about 4 inches taller and a little heavier than I. It was a good fight
> 
> Belt test tonight!


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## OnlyAnEgg (Aug 9, 2006)

twendkata71 said:
			
		

> *Congradulations. Sorry I missed it. I frankly forgot about the tourney. I have been spending most of my time getting ready for Nationals.*


 
Hopefully, I'll have the opportunity to meet you at Nationals.  I really don't count on too many people, outside our dojo and Sempai's dojo, to attend these little school comps.

I'm really looking forward to Westland.


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## twendkata71 (Aug 9, 2006)

*Generally, I got to only a few tournaments a year now.  Mostly our organization. Once an a while I will go to tournaments that are outside of our organization. Like the Arnold Martial arts festival and the USAKF Nationals. I used to go to tournaments every other weekend.  When I was younger and tournaments were the main focus of my training.  Now I just do it for the fun of it. With a family I can't really afford to go to tournaments all of the time. The expenses mount up. tournament fees,hotel rooms,gas,food,etc.  Heck, if I wanted to go to the AAU nationals or USANKF nationals it would cost about $400.00-$500.00 in travel expenses,hotel room for three days, entry fee,etc. not to mention if I needed a new gi.  *
*That is why I generally just to the our Nationals every year and a few other of our tournaments. Its just a short trip down the road.*


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## OnlyAnEgg (Aug 13, 2006)

Invitational in Richmond

Sensei Phillips and I competed at the United States Karate System Invitational (Jim Thomas) in Richmond yesterday.  Between he and I, we garnered 5 1sts and 1 Grand Champion.  Not a bad showing for 2 old guys 

I was particularly pleased to see a CMA school show up. Stroud's Jinen-Do from Cincinnatti.  They competed with Primary Drunken Form, 5 Animal Form and a suh-WEET fan form.  They, and everyone else in attendance, had a lot of fun and competed most respectfully.

As for me, *sigh* once again, I was the only one in my division.  However, I DID spar with a red belt TKD student for my kumite.  He beat me, tis true; but, he only beat me by one point, 5-4.  I was quite pleased to hold my own so well.

Hope to see many at the Nationals this Saturday!


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## twendkata71 (Aug 13, 2006)

*Jim Thomas is Soke Maddens old black belts. He was on the US team for a few years. He may have changed the name of his style,but he was Seiei kan. For the most part he has always claimed to be a Seiei kan stylist. I am not sure when he went his own way. He was promoting kickboxing events and running a karate school in Washington state. then he moved back to Ohio and then went to Indianna. He started a school in Lakewood,Oh years ago before he went to Washington. I have met him several times.  I have heard good and bad things about him, but I have heard that his organization is ok. Fair competitions.*
* It is good that you are getting in a lot of competition experience. *


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## OnlyAnEgg (Aug 13, 2006)

There's good and bad in everyone, methinks.  What I could percieve, in the judging, was fair and I heard no complaints.  It was a lot of fun and good competition.


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## ryudo634 (Aug 19, 2006)

So how did everyone do at Nationals? I won a 1st in white-blue belt kata. 2nd in lightweight novice grappling, and 3rd in lightweight novice randori. Did poorly in kumite, but all in all it was a fun day.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Aug 21, 2006)

I got 2nd in kata, 3rd in kumite and 2 little kid's from George's school talked me into doing synch kata and we got 3rd.

No real complaints from me outside of kumite.  It seemed odd after W-L-W that I didn't have the chance to fight for second; but, eh, some days you're the pigeon, some days you're the statue.

Fun day nonetheless.  Congrats, ryudu!  Going to Whitehall this weekend?


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## twendkata71 (Aug 25, 2006)

*That actually sounds right. Depending how many were in your division. w-l-w would get you a 3rd. w-w-l would have given you a 2nd. Its ok, sounds like you did well. It takes time to get that national gold.  Are you going to the  Rick Moore's Four seasons tournament Saturday?  I have a few tournaments lined up this year. My main tournament that I would like to compete in next year is the Arnold martial arts tournament and Nationals of course.  *
*Good luck.*


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## OnlyAnEgg (Aug 25, 2006)

twendkata71 said:
			
		

> *That actually sounds right. Depending how many were in your division. w-l-w would get you a 3rd. w-w-l would have given you a 2nd. Its ok, sounds like you did well. It takes time to get that national gold. Are you going to the Rick Moore's Four seasons tournament Saturday? I have a few tournaments lined up this year. My main tournament that I would like to compete in next year is the Arnold martial arts tournament and Nationals of course. *
> *Good luck.*


 
In fact, I am going to Shihan Moore's comp.  Looks like I'm the only one going from my dojo, too.  I would imagine George will have a troop going, as well; so, I won't be entirely alone.


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## ryudo634 (Aug 26, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I got 2nd in kata, 3rd in kumite and 2 little kid's from George's school talked me into doing synch kata and we got 3rd.
> 
> No real complaints from me outside of kumite.  It seemed odd after W-L-W that I didn't have the chance to fight for second; but, eh, some days you're the pigeon, some days you're the statue.
> 
> Fun day nonetheless.  Congrats, ryudu!  Going to Whitehall this weekend?


No, my next tournament will be the one in West Virginia in September. I saw your synch kata with the kids. Fun to watch, you guys didn't do bad.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Aug 28, 2006)

ryudo634 said:
			
		

> No, my next tournament will be the one in West Virginia in September. I saw your synch kata with the kids. Fun to watch, you guys didn't do bad.


 
I fouled up the first part of the form.  I was seriously embarrassed over that.  I've been doing the form for months now.

At Whitehall, the young lady and I took first in synch and I recieved firsts in kata and kumite.  It was a good comp.

Mr. Annarino has his tourney next Sunday and I may be down in WV, as well.


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## twendkata71 (Aug 28, 2006)

*The trick there is that you continue like there was no mistake. Even though the judges may recognize the mistake, they might think that you were taught it that way and may not deduct points. Plus, if it were a real fight you would not be able to stop and start over. You would have to addapt and overcome your opponent. Keep in mind that tournament competition is an extention of your training. Winning or losing in a competition is just a measuring stick of where you are at that point in your training. Just in a more public way. Kind of like a mini belt test.  If you really want to be a competitor there are tournaments about every weekend. Tokey Hill,when he was competing would go to all of the tournaments no matter who was putting them on.  Just to gain the experience of fighting against many different styles.*


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## OnlyAnEgg (Aug 29, 2006)

twendkata71 said:
			
		

> *The trick there is that you continue like there was no mistake. Even though the judges may recognize the mistake, they might think that you were taught it that way and may not deduct points. Plus, if it were a real fight you would not be able to stop and start over. You would have to addapt and overcome your opponent. Keep in mind that tournament competition is an extention of your training. Winning or losing in a competition is just a measuring stick of where you are at that point in your training. Just in a more public way. Kind of like a mini belt test. If you really want to be a competitor there are tournaments about every weekend. Tokey Hill,when he was competing would go to all of the tournaments no matter who was putting them on. Just to gain the experience of fighting against many different styles.*


 
No doubt.  I continued, as I was taught, without much of a stumble.  That performance got us 3rd.  First time I did a synch at comp.  I felt bad for the kids cause I fouled it; but, I made up for it last weekend when Ally and I got 1st at Ricky Moore's comp.

Competitions...yep, it's simply a statement of how good I was ON THAT DAY only.  Since I went single, I've applied myself to as many comps as I can.  I'm enjoying having thrown myself, wholeheartedly, into karate.  This week is a demo in Millersport on wednesday.  Next Saturday, the 9th, is another demo in Lancaster.  The 10th is George's competition.  Then, there's one in Zanesville and one in West Va.  No Bangkok for me, though.


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## twendkata71 (Aug 29, 2006)

*Who is having a tournament in Zanesville?  That would be a first for me. I have never know of anyone having any tournament in that area. *


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## OnlyAnEgg (Aug 29, 2006)

I have the flyer at home.  I'll post it tomorrow with all the pertinent info.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Aug 30, 2006)

The tourney is hosted by Coszacks School of Self-Defence.  That's all I have at the moment, I'm afraid.  I forgot the flyer


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## twendkata71 (Aug 30, 2006)

*I believe that I have met him before. There is nothing on his website about a tournament.  I see where he is registered with Seiei kan with a 5th dan rank. *


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## OnlyAnEgg (Aug 30, 2006)

twendkata71 said:
			
		

> *I believe that I have met him before. There is nothing on his website about a tournament. I see where he is registered with Seiei kan with a 5th dan rank. *


 
I was surprised there was nothing about the comp, too.  I have the flyer; but, I'm a bit forgetful first thing in the morning


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## OnlyAnEgg (Sep 5, 2006)

Here's a couple of pics from the AKJU Nationals.

Left to right, Christian, myself and Allyson


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## twendkata71 (Sep 5, 2006)

*Hanshi Annarino's secretary is going to mail me a copy of the flyer for the Zanesville tourney. I am not going to make Annarino's fall tourney this Sunday. I have to work.*








OnlyAnEgg said:


> I was surprised there was nothing about the comp, too. I have the flyer; but, I'm a bit forgetful first thing in the morning


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## twendkata71 (Nov 12, 2006)

*I see on Annarino's web site that the 1st Bankok Cup was a great success. Congradulations to all who went and won.*


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Nov 22, 2006)

I've heard a rumor that this tournament, unlike the Irish Cup, might move from country to country in the future.


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## twendkata71 (Nov 22, 2006)

*That would be neat.  With the current political climate in Thailand that would not surprise me. We held the Irish Cup here in the US one time, but it has stayed in Ireland since. I still thing that the AKJU should have its own world championships. But, that takes more money.*


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Dec 1, 2006)

I guess there were some people from India and Nepal at the Thai tourney, and they expressed interest in the competition being held in their respective countries.  Still in the talking phase, from what I hear.


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## twendkata71 (Dec 1, 2006)

*One of George Anderson's Kwanmukan instructors has a large organization in Nepal. They had an international tournament there last year. That does sound interesting, but there is a lot of political turmoil in both of those countries. I would say that India would be the best place. *


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 30, 2008)

Is anyone attending the Annarino tourney on the 18th?  He seems to think I should compete at that one.  He's encouraging my daughter to, at least, compete kata, as well.

Flyer


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