# Substyles of JKD.



## arnisador (Apr 4, 2002)

How different are the various "streams" of JKD? I study under a PFS instructor, for example. How similar would the JKD of a non-PFS instructor be? Is it one cohesive style--which is somewhat against its philosophy, I suppose--or are different instructors teaching very different things?


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## Cthulhu (Apr 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *How different are the various "streams" of JKD? I study under a PFS instructor, for example. How similar would the JKD of a non-PFS instructor be? Is it one cohesive style--which is somewhat against its philosophy, I suppose--or are different instructors teaching very different things? *



I guess it's dependent on the instructor, as usual.  PFS instructors are under Vunak, who was a student of Inosanto.  That would imply that there is a good amount of FMA content in the material.  I imagine someone under Hartsell would have more grappling, and the 'Original JKD' people would have little-to-no FMA material at all.

Cthulhu


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## arnisador (Apr 4, 2002)

Indeed, we do a fair amount of FMA-related material, though it all comes back to HKE sooner or later.


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## IFAJKD (Apr 5, 2002)

Like other styles, You will see more and more similarities between the JKDC people if you stay with it long enough. We are all trying to go to the same place but often take different transportation. Vunak for example, is from the on set, focused on attribute development. If you stay with him he will bring you to more and more of the perfection drilling and the individual arts. He was also the first JKD person to pursue BJJ to the extent he did. Some of Dan Inosanto's other students/Instructors (most trained by and certified by Vunak as well) although they have come from the same family, they still look at it all differently and place their own spin on it. Some focus on more perfection drilling and the expansion of the art, others stay strictly combative. My opinion is that we must have both the one then becomes the other and there is no seperation of the two. Try to see is it as self preservation and self perfection. 
Original JKD students do what Bruce was doing at the time their Instructor trained with him. No more no less. It is important in the preservcation of the history but we too train that and more. This in keeping what Bruce was after. Basically,  No single truth, No definition and no end. Evolution. To evolve, more and more doors have to open and more will then close. His statement of "Chipping away at the unessentials" does not mean to eliminate techniques as many believe, but to eliminate the unnecessary motions to utilize it. Obviously, the more tools yoiu have the more diverse you are. This has become a major difference in understanding among JKD people. Please know that this is simply my conclusions based on my study.


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## bscastro (Apr 6, 2002)

I currently have been thinking about a similar topic. I am going to be attending a Cass Magda seminar in Cleveland, OH. His "JKD" is heavily based on Silat, Kali, and JKD. One of my old training brothers owns a school which is a branch of the Magda Institute, so I had the opportunity to train in a class there.

My current instructor's class is based heavily on Jun Fan, Muay Thai, and Kali, and grappling from Catchwrestling and Sambo. 

Both programs are similar in that there is a significant training component on Jun Fan kickboxing and Muay Thai for part of the class. But they differ after that as the Magda program places much more emphasis on Silat, while my instructor, Sifu Tom Macaluso here in Buffalo, focuses more on Kali and grappling.

Interestingly, both have similar foundations, but the emphasis is based more on how each instructor assimilates the different styles into their program. For example, Sifu Tom utilizes Silat throws and concepts in some of our techniques, but to a less "traditional" degree than do the Magda people I have seen. In the class I trained in with my friend in Cleveland (I only trained in one class, so it could be  a generalization), they practice the Silat more traditionally, and utilize the "tools" of Muay Thai, but less of the overall art than Sifu Tom.

So this influences how the students look as well. Although I'm not advanced in Sifu Tom's program, I would say that I and other students move more like boxers while the students of my friend in Cleveland move more like Silat practicioners. It's not too different overall, but you can see how the individual instructor's experiences have influenced the way they teach. And as a previous thread mentioned, we're all trying to get to the same place, just through different paths.

Bryan


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## KumaSan (Apr 6, 2002)

Good timing on this question. I just got done reading a thread on the another forum about the differences between Muay Thai and JKD Muay Thai that had me thinking along a similar line.

My school is a JKDC school. The head instructor is Frank Cucci, who is certified under Guro Dan. However, about the first 2 years worth of curriculum is almost entirely Muay Thai. There's some FMA weapon work, and occasionally some self-defense style grappling (defense from rear choke, wrist grabs, shirt grabs, headlocks, etc), but for the most part, it's Muay Thai. Around the 1.5 - 2 year point emphasis gradually shifts to the Jun Fan and FMA, but we never forget our MT base.


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## IFAJKD (Apr 6, 2002)

This makes the point. Frank and Pat Trey were both first taught and certified by Paul Vunak and later an Inosanto. They however teach from a different route. So many ways of looking at it. This is why you really can't say in JKD "My way is better" there are very good fighters doing it many different ways. It is just "A" way


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## KumaSan (Apr 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by IFAJKD _
> 
> *Frank and Pat Trey were both first taught and certified by Paul Vunak and later an Inosanto.*



Thanks, I thought that I'd heard that somewhere, but he's been gone a lot lately so I couldn't ask him.



> *So many ways of looking at it. This is why you really can't say in JKD "My way is better" there are very good fighters doing it many different ways. It is just "A" way*



I think that's one of the main reasons I'm liking it so much. It's all very personal. I dig that.


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## IFAJKD (Apr 6, 2002)

No prob. Per Paul, He taught both Frank and Pat and the Navy paid them to follow Paul everywhere he taught so they could learn the system and teach it to the SEALS as well. They were first taught thr RAT and then from there the art followed. As they went on they trained with Dan and had Dan in for seminars and eventually became certified by him. I believe that Dan was just there not long ago. I know Eric Paulson was there and did a GREAT job. If you get a chance ask Frank about Terry Gibson. Terry was an Instructor under Dan. He used to be an attorney and he left that to teach MA. He died from Brain cancer I believe. He and Frank both taught together at seminars. Terry focused on Silat and loved that part art. So many good people and so much to latch onto.


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## KumaSan (Apr 6, 2002)

Yeah, Guro Dan was out at Linxx in Jan or Feb of 2001. I was just starting then and missed the seminar  Chai came out last May, and he'll be here again this may. He hit my birthday both times. And Erik came down in October, I think it was, had a seminar up at Trident, then drove down and had one here at Linxx. I was blown away!

Back in 1995 I was a young squid stationed in Scotland and I wanted to study JKD, only I didn't know how to go about finding an instructor, especially being new to a foreign country. So I got the number for Mr. Gibson's school out of some martial art magazine, and just called and asked. It turned out that the nearest instructor at the time was about a 3 hr drive away, and I didn't have a car, but I couldn't believe how nice and willing to help they were. It definitely left an impression.



> *So many good people and so much to latch onto.*


I think I know what you mean. My biggest problem is that I actually get starstruck sometimes. I've been a fan of martial arts for a long time, and to me some of these people are almost like celebrities. You see the videos, read the magazine articles, but it never seems like they are real. Then fastforward to now, and I have Mr. C telling me about rolling with Margarida. It's a bit surreal sometimes.


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## IFAJKD (Apr 7, 2002)

I understand what you're talking about. I would caution however that even watching these kinds of people, don't be afraid to move as you do and find your own way. We all have our weak areas and have done things to compensate fo. Sometimes what you see is this compensation. 
For me the reality is that no matter how long I train, there will still be things to train in. More that I will want and more than I could get in a life time


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## KumaSan (Apr 7, 2002)

Good point and thanks for the advice. And yes, there's definitely more than a lifetime's worth of material to study.


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## arnisador (Apr 8, 2002)

This is all very interesting--I wish I had something to contribute. My JKD class is actually taught as 45 mins. of JKD followed by 45 mins. of BJJ (some class times allow only 30 mins. of BJJ). You are allowed to do only one or the other but I don't believe that anyone does. There are strong boxing, Wing Chun, and FMA influences that I recognize, and savate and muay thai are mentioned occasionally. One message comes through very clearly though: When possible, grab the back of the neck and use HKE, then "give them a sail" (i.e. shove them away).


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## bscastro (Apr 9, 2002)

There certainly is a tremendous amount of knowledge out there. My recent thoughts on my personal plans with martial arts in the near future has changed FROM trying to learn EVERYTHING out there (even within JKD), instead TO get with one main instructor (and a couple "sub"-instructors), and train and learn as much as possible from them so one can try to APPLY what I learn (with the occasional martial arts seminar on the side). 

Last weekend, I went to a Cass Magda seminar where he mentioned the difference between KNOWLEDGE and KNOWHOW. Some people are "notebook warriors" who go to many seminars or attend a lot of different classes and have a lot of knowledge, but can only apply very little of it. There are others who can really fight, or do the techniques, but can't explain it or don't have the theoretical understanding of what they can do. In any case, he posited that a good way would be in "flux" between the two--continually moving between gaining knowledge and learning to apply it. I like that way of putting it. Of course, there are some, maybe such as Guro Dan Inosanto, who have an encyclopedia of knowledge, and can probably apply a lot of it as well, but that's the exception I think.  

Bryan


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## arnisador (Apr 9, 2002)

Interesting perspective *bscastro*!


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## KumaSan (Apr 9, 2002)

Indeed, thank you for pointing that out. I can see myself going back and forth at times. With so much to learn, sometimes I just want to learn as much new stuff as I can, but after a while of getting stomped in sparring, I realize that I have to start working more on application of knowledge.


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## IFAJKD (Apr 9, 2002)

I have several thoughts on several things.


> : When possible, grab the back of the neck and use HKE, then "give them a sail" (i.e. shove them away).



I think that this is from Paul's influence. He was big on the sail yet it isn't something that I teach as a staple. The reality is when someone does a headbutt for real the person often just collapses and you back up going *&^%$ it works. This becomes a small example of how systems differ. 



> Some people are "notebook warriors" who go to many seminars or attend a lot of different classes and have a lot of knowledge, but can only apply very little of it. There are others who can really fight, or do the techniques, but can't explain it or don't have the theoretical understanding of what they can do.



There are people who can do all of it. Dan Inosanto really is one as are many others. I remember seeing Dan move and do a dummy set I thought that there were no words to explain what I saw. None. You have to experience him this way. This from a video Paul Vunak had. Seeing him in a seminar does not do him justice either. The difference is so drastic. Seminar Instructors, subsequently (those certified through multiple seminars) have too often a limited understanding of concepts, techniques and the spirit of techniques, too little time invested in learning the history and reason for a particular move, technique or system and a serious lack of the depth of them. Seminars I believe were meant to expose not teach. Likewise until you spar it as KumaSan pointed out it does not matter because it is not alive. Thus a "notebook" understanding doesn't allow the person the skills and experience to teach it. 
JKD is such that as each Instructor teaches they help each student avoid specific struggles that they went through. Each student becomes better faster because of it. I think this is part of the genius of it. It automatically evolves.


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## YODA (Apr 20, 2002)

Hi all

Our JKDC has yet another "Flavour".

My lineage is under Sifu Marc McFann - another of Guro Inosanto's Full Instructors. Our approach tends to have a definate grappling slant to it although we do teach & train the whole picture - in fact one condition of Instructorship under Sifu McFann is that you train in & teach 5 core areas....

- Jun Fan Gung Fu
- Muay Thai
- Kali
- Grappling & Groundfighting
- Silat

YODA
www.jkdc.co.uk


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## arnisador (Apr 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by YODA _
> 
> *- Kali
> - Grappling & Groundfighting
> ...



What kali and silat systems do you use, and what grappling/groundfighting system?


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## YODA (Apr 20, 2002)

Hi

Sifu McFann teaches primarily the Inosanto/LaCoste Kali system, although I personally take heavily from the Doce Pares system too - in fact I teach Doce Pares seperately to JKDC as an art in it's own right. 

Our Silat is mainly Mande Muda - and our grappling/groundfighting has a strong BJJ base (POSITION!!!) with strong shooto, Judo elements in there too.


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## arnisador (Apr 20, 2002)

Where I study the grappling has a lot of BJJ but also dumog. I'm not entirely sure what the kali influence is.


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## bscastro (Apr 22, 2002)

It is interesting to see where different JKD people get their "elements" for each range. For example, my instructor, Sifu Tom Macaluso, incorporates Sambo and Catchwrestling for the grappling range, while using mainly the Inosanto/LaCoste Kali for Filipino martial arts. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, he does not teach straight Silat, but has studied with Paul DeThours some I believe and some of what we learn has that flavor to it.

Bryan :asian:


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## Lisa lyons (Feb 1, 2021)

so from what i have read looking at this thread many people make up their own system & call it JKD?  the Guy i know who teaches it has trained with dan Inosanto (hope i spelt him name correctly). he said it´s really the only trusted way to learn  the full system.


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## angelariz (Aug 15, 2021)

arnisador said:


> Indeed, we do a fair amount of FMA-related material, though it all comes back to HKE sooner or later.


A lot of PFS guys skipped the Gong Fu and went right into FMA and BJJ hybrid work. It is great but I came up in the 90s first with JF GF and JKD Concepts then we moved on to the modern version CJKD.


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## Mider (Aug 16, 2021)

There’s Dan Inosanto‘s school, Ron Poteet, Tim Tackett, Ted Wong etc

I know Tim Tackett focuses on small groups where it can be taught and tested vs teaching it to 60 or more guys where it’s not hands on.


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## angelariz (Aug 16, 2021)

There is also Sifus Francis Fong, Kevin Seaman, and a few others.


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