# Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do



## Bob Hubbard (Sep 3, 2001)

I was under the impression the he was a ninjitsu instructor.  Real dumb question, but as I have read several of his books I have to ask.  What happened to change this?  Does he still teach ninjitsu?

Thanks!


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## Cthulhu (Sep 3, 2001)

He was a teacher in the Bujinkan organization, but I'm not sure what he's doing now.  It seems like he's broken off and has started his own thing, which seems pretty common for the Bujinkan org...Bussey broke away, Tanemura (sp? The guy who founded the Genbukan org.), and apparently Hayes.  I know Hayes is pretty heavy into Buddhism now (at least I think he is, rather), and he's provided security for the Dalai Lama on a few occasions.  Maybe that has something to do with it?

Cthulhu


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## Cthulhu (Sep 11, 2001)

Okay, did a little digging.  

Toshindo is a 'modern' approach to teaching what Hayes has learned from Hatsumi.  From all appearances, it's a very commercialized way of teaching a watered down Tokagure ryu system in what are called 'Quest Centers'.  Apparently, the higher ranked students in the system can eventually be taught the actual Tokagure ryu system with traditional instruction.  Apparently there are still links to the Bujinkan organization.

According to my instructor in California, the Hayes schools are closing down left and right, apparently not doing very well at all.

Cthulhu


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 11, 2001)

I can understand why, if thats true.  I seriously considered heading to Dayton to try and learn ninjitsu under him, but I want the "real" thing, not a watered down version.  Sadly, budgetary and other restraints kept me from doing that, and now it seems like it wouldn't have given me what I wanted.  Kinda like all the systems that have 6yr old blackbelts. You just know that its not the "same" as what the "adult" got.


sorry, my heads swiming from overload today....can't think too straight.  Too much pain and anger in the air.


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## Cthulhu (Sep 13, 2001)

There's a guy in my city by the name of Dick Severence teaching Bujinkan ninjutsu.  A buddy of mine was studying ninjutsu at the Atlanta Bujinkan Dojo under Bud Malmstrom some years back.  From what I remember, the dojo changed their fees and access policies for the worst and he ended up leaving the system.  Before that, when the fees were lower and the dojo access was greater, he had nothing but praise for the system.

Cthulhu


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## Cthulhu (Oct 19, 2001)

Okay, saw an interview on Hayes.  He says that To-Shin Do techniques are based off of ninjutsu techniques (most likely ninpo taijutsu), but it is NOT ninjutsu.  He states that most people can't or won't undertake something as rigorous as authentic ninjutsu.

Just a little update.

Cthulhu


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 20, 2001)

Watered down = yuk.

IMHO.
:asian:


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## higuma (Oct 30, 2001)

Kaith and Cthulu,

Yes, Steve still has "connections" to the Bujinkan.  No, his ToShinDo system does not resemble the Budo Taijutsu done in Japan or in most of the rest of the world for that matter.

As for the migration of instructors being common place in the Bujinkan...  I dare say that it happens less in the Bujinkan than in many other arts.  Yes there have been high ranking people in the organization leave but, in my opinion, the best stay.  I think that, in and of itself, speaks volumes about Hatsumi-sensei.

Kaith, if you are interested in training with a legitimate Bujinkan group, let me know and I'll try to help you locate one nearer you than Dayton.


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## Cthulhu (Oct 30, 2001)

It's 'budo taijutsu' now?  Last I heard, it was 'ninpo taijutsu'.  

Cthulhu


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## higuma (Oct 31, 2001)

Aahhh... the "name" question.

Let's call it a matter of evolution.  Similar to the name progression of Wing Chun to Jun Fan Gung Fu to Jeet Kune Do to Jeet Kune Do Concepts, ad infinitum.

In a nutshell, in the '60s and '70s the Bujinkan arts were known as Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu.  Then in the '80s it became Bujinkan Dojo Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu.  Then toward the late '80's early '90s it was Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu.  Then, circa '94, it transmogrified one more time to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

The take home lesson here is, all the names are accurate.  There are several reasons for the name changes at various times but overall, the point is that while we study the last extant "ninja" arts, we also study other things that are more attributable to the larger heading of "budo".  Additionally, ninpo is a form of budo.

Imo, the "official" name is really of very little importance anyway.  At the end of the day, Bujinkan practitioners are studying Hatsumi-ha Taijutsu, aka Hatsumi Ryu.  And when the student advances to a certain point the art starts to be his/hers.  It is a living, growing, evolving art and as such is in constant flux.  Nature is not static and neither is the Bujinkan.


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## Cthulhu (Oct 31, 2001)

I was just making an observation of the name change.    Thanks for the info, though.

However, the Wing Chun - JKD analogy is not really appropriate in this case.  For the Bujinkan ninjutsu issue, despite all the name changes, the art has essentially remained the same.  In Bruce Lee's case, it was not merely a name change, but a change in the system being taught at the time.  Basically, JKD is NOT Jun Fan which is NOT Wing Chun.

Cthulhu


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## GouRonin (Oct 31, 2001)

If the quest centers under hays are not teaching "authentic ninjitsu" what is it exactly they are teaching?


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## Cthulhu (Oct 31, 2001)

They teach 'to-shin do', an art created by Hayes loosely based off Bujinkan ninjutsu.  At one time, he still offered a course in ninjutsu for advanced students, but I don't know if that is still the case.

Cthulhu


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## GouRonin (Oct 31, 2001)

Who doesn't want to open his own martial arts school? But after reading half the stuff that goes on out there and PASSES as a martial art I think that I could quite easily get away with opening up a McDojo.
:soapbox:


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 31, 2001)

higuma -  I would apreciate the pointers.  Thank you. :asian: 

I think the name is less important than the quality of the teaching.  If the instructor is capable, and can truely trace their lineage back to Dr. Hatsumi, and is certified to teach by him, then I'm ok with it.  

I prefer to learn quality vs watered down, even though I may need the watered down for the first month or 2 to get the brain and body in gear.

A McDojo?  naw.  I don't need the fries. 

But, I have thought of opening my own school in maybe 5 years or so, or at least being a part time instructor at one of my instructors schools.  I like sword and stick techniques, and like to help others.


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## Cthulhu (Oct 31, 2001)

The few opportunities I've had to teach have all been fun, even though I'm still an impatient, cranky, S.O.B. 

If I were to open up a school, I'd have to have some other source of income so I don't end up having a crappy dojo with crappy equipment.  I definitely don't want to fall into the McDojo category.  Ideally, I'd want only a handful of students so as to better track their progress.  Of course, to even start this, I'd have to be rich already.  So much for that idea.

Cthulhu


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## Chiduce (Jan 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *higuma -  I would apreciate the pointers.  Thank you. :asian:
> 
> I think the name is less important than the quality of the teaching.  If the instructor is capable, and can truely trace their lineage back to Dr. Hatsumi, and is certified to teach by him, then I'm ok with it.
> ...


 Dr. Hatsumi is a great martial artist of ninjutsu. But what about the Yoshida Clan?  The clan in which James Masayoshi Mitose came from and introduced Kosho Ryu Kempo and Koga Ha Ninjutsu into our modern times! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## KOGA-NINJA (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi i think HAYES has all the right to do his own thing and WITHOUT HIM THE BUJINKAN WAS NOT EVEN SPREAD AND WE COULDN'T PRACTISE IT!
HATSUMI SENSEI IS RICH NOW BECAUSE OF HAYES AND WITHOUT HAYES HE HAD NEVER BECOME SO KNOWN

hAYES IS WHAT YOU CLAIMED AGAIN NOT A NINJUTSU INSTRUCTOR,  BUJINKAN AND NINJUTSU IS NOT THE SAME!

HAYES WAS A TEACHER IN THE ART OF BUJINKAN BUDO TAIJUTSU (NOT NINPO TAIJUTSU) AND WITH THAT KNOWLEDGE HE HAS STARTED HIS OWN THANG!
to shiN do IS A LITTLE BIT LIKE THE MODERN WAY OF THE OLD APPROACH DO YOU UNDERSTAND>???

pEACE AND RESPECT koga ninja


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## Cthulhu (Feb 8, 2002)

Mod Note:

Use of all capital letters is considered bad etiquette.  Please refrain from doing so in the future.

Cthulhu
-MT Mod-


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## Deaf (Mar 16, 2002)

Stephen K. Hayes is not a ninjutsu instructor.  He has basically created a chain of marital art schools called Quest Centers that teach To Shin Do which is translated to The way of sword/heart or something like that.

What Mr. Hayes basically did was take everything that he learned in the Bujinkan system and broken it down or "watered" it down to simple techniques that anyone can do and charging them a crap load of money for it as well.  Whether or not these techniques are beneficial or work in reality, only those who train in the system can say.  But from many of the practioners that I have seen from Quest Centers, their taijutsu is extremely poor in all aspects and the ukemi skills are virtually non-existent.  I believe ukemi skills have actually been eliminated from the Quest Center's cirriculum due to the fact it was "too hard" for the students to learn.  Thus created too much "negative" feelings.

Up front it looks good and has a lot of positive energy etc...but in the backend, it is lacking some serious basic skills IHMO.

From my understanding (based on other Bujinkan practioners and from Mr. Hayes' magazine interviews) Mr. Hayes is still affiliated with the Bujinkan and he probably will always be affiliated with the Bujinkan however he DOES NOT teach Bujinkan.  Even though he has re-formed his "Shadow Of Iga Society" group and offers training in authentic Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu one day a month or week for 45 minutes for members only (I cringe to think of how much that is costing them).  So you draw you own conclusions about that one.  I have mine but I my opinion about that is not important.

HTH with the understanding a bit.

Deaf


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 16, 2002)

I think part of the problem is, how do you take an art, that requires years of dedication, and market it to a group of people to whom microwaves are too slow making tea?

The amerkican public has had a rapidly dwindling attention span for the last several decades.  Quick = good.  Time = bad.

For all the respect I've had in the past for Mr. Hayes, I have yet to hear any good things about his Quest system.

Its sad.


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## Deaf (Mar 17, 2002)

Yes I agree.  I used to have quite a bit of respect for Mr. Hayes as well.  Hell, I started ninjutsu because of him and his wife.  he and his wife's taijutsu is phenonemal and he is a great martial artist in that sense.

However one cannot help but get the feeling that Quest Centers are not about teaching martial arts or creating positive environments but really about creating a steady cash flow for Mr. Hayes.  I heard (probably a rumor but none the less short of amazing) that Mr. Hayes actually charges over $500 per hour for private lessons!  Now that is just ridiculuos.

There is nothing wrong with making a living but the way it seems that Mr. Hayes is going about doing it, leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  That is my opinion and I am sure there are many who will agree and disagree.

This is all I really will say about this subject since I don't really wish to bash Hayes.  Just wanted to voice some of my opinions about the topic and now I have.

Deaf


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## Shadow Hunter (Aug 5, 2003)

Are there even any Toshido studios around?

And does anyone have personal experience with Steve Hayes before and after he started toshindo? I would like to know if he has always taught a watered down version of the Bujinkan, or if that is a recent event.

Considering that many people started out under Hayes and learned their basics from him, or from someone who learned from him, any problems he has may have great impact on the American Bujinkan as a whole.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 5, 2003)

Shadow, take this for what its worth, since it is second hand, but...

My current instructor had been a student of SKH before he broke away and started the quest center thing... Hayes taught the "real" bujinkan teachings for a long time, and my instructor trained with him for several years. And then, as he relates the story, Hayes started courting TKD dojos, telling them he would teach them Ninjustsu they could teach at their schools... he watered the system down to some basic techniques, taught it to the TKD guys in weekend seminars and gouged money from them for allowing them to become "Quest Centers"  

My instructor basicaly went "Man this is Bull<stuff>!" and was outed.   He trains under a different insructor now, obviously.


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## arnisador (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *Are there even any Toshido studios around?*



He still has the main school in Dayton, OH, doesn't he?


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## Shadow Hunter (Aug 5, 2003)

Ok Techno,
Maybe you can address another question of mine. I have heard from numerous sources that what Hayes was teaching even before he founded Toshindo was not up to the standards in Japan. Of course, if you talk to anyone under Hayes they all dispute this and try to pass it off as some sort of conspiracy.

Can you make any statements on this from strong experience?

I know Hayes modified the teachings in his books with his five element theory and talk of things like "fire technique" and things like that. Rumor has it that he was out of the loop for anything of any real importance for most of his career. Of course, he still got high rank. It is hard to tell an instructors real standing and competence in the Bujinkan. Rank means nothing and there are so many accusations and counter accusations on the internet and by word of mouth.

Anyone care to comment with stories of their own?


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## arnisador (Aug 5, 2003)

What is his rank, incidentally?


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## heretic888 (Aug 5, 2003)

Last I heard, Hayes is a judan. Of course, he got that rank around 1993 so Buddha only knows what rank he is now.

I think it should be mentioned that there are a lot of rumors going around the internet concerning Hayes, apparently the most popular of which is that he "left" the Bujinkan. Don't beleive everything you hear (although some of the rumors do have weight).


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## Cryozombie (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *Ok Techno,
> Maybe you can address another question of mine. I have heard from numerous sources that what Hayes was teaching even before he founded Toshindo was not up to the standards in Japan. Of course, if you talk to anyone under Hayes they all dispute this and try to pass it off as some sort of conspiracy.
> 
> ...



I cannot... I went to a Shadows of Iga School that was here prior to it closing down and the formation of the quest centers... all I can say is that after my 2 week "trial" course, I was not impressed, and it was WAY about making the dough... so I did not continue training there.


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## Bujingodai (Aug 5, 2003)

Well I have an opinion. A limited one at that. Other than reading some books, which are a good read but at the same time no gospel. I did enjoy the wau he does a video. You can tell he has the $$$ to do it though.
I knew a student at the Dayton location. He paid a bucket load. Over a hundred a month, there were many stripes to each kyu. After 4 years he was equivelent to not much more than a green belt. Well 4 classes a week would on average get you farther than that.
A month ago I had signed up for the SOI festival. couple hundred bucks cdn, about 300. + hotel. When I called about it to ask what came with the package, there was nil. For that money I want at a token momento. Thats just polite. I asked will there be a video. They stated that parts of it will be in the newsletter which is about $325 a year cdn funds. There was an opportunity to meet him though. All in all, it just seemed to not have the meat I was going to pay that money, and drive 15 hrs to see for 2 days.
Now the same can be said for the Tai Kai really in the Bujinkan. But the same cost got me another day of training, a dinner and a bucket of momentos to take home.

This notwithstanding SKH has made an incredible, if not the most important contribution to Ninjutsu in N America. However he is to me 1st and foremost a businessman.


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## Richard S. (Aug 5, 2003)

there is a "Quest Center" in  Chapel Hill, N.C. about 40 miles from my house. i went in once and got the impression that i could have ordered a "rank to go"............


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## Shadow Hunter (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Technopunk _
> *I cannot... I went to a Shadows of Iga School that was here prior to it closing down and the formation of the quest centers... all I can say is that after my 2 week "trial" course, I was not impressed, and it was WAY about making the dough... so I did not continue training there. *



Jeez....

Such honesty. I am continually amazed at the fact that there are so many morons in the Bujinkan, but Bujinkan members are allowed to cut loose with such honest critique of each other.

I have seen some orginizations that resemble the Stepford Wives. Nothing bad is said of anybody, not matter how bad a reputation they may have.

Sometimes the Bujinkan seems to be a bunch of quibbling amatuers. But sometimes the freedom to ***** is rather refreshing.


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## Deaf (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *Jeez....
> 
> Such honesty. I am continually amazed at the fact that there are so many morons in the Bujinkan, but Bujinkan members are allowed to cut loose with such honest critique of each other.
> ...



I believe what you really meant to say "so many morons in the Martial Arts!"  It is not just the Bujinkan dude!  You just really LOVE bashing Bujinkan!

Now back to the original thread...

The below statements are my thoughts and my observances from information that I have heard.

Hayes basically taught his interpretation of budo taijutsu.  Using the Godai or "elements" which actually are NOT part of the Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu cirriculum.  And if memory serves me correct, a lot of his early students were quite surprised and disappointed when they went to Japan for the first time and learned that "hey we don't use elements...that is our method of counting etc"

HOWEVER, all that aside, he did teach the techniques as they were just put a different twist to them using the Godai or "elements" theory behind them..such as Jumonji No Kamae being "Fire Posture"  feeling as if you are angry all consuming and  taking charge etc...  I believe he just took what he thought was the best tool to teach what he learned and went with it.    Not to say it is right or wrong BUT that is not how the art is being taught in Japan.

Now in present day, SKH is all about the "benjamins"!  Plain and simple!

Deaf


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## Shadow Hunter (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Deaf _
> *Now in present day, SKH is all about the "benjamins"!  Plain and simple!*



Well, everyone seems to be in agreement that SKH is a money- grubbing whore. But is this _really_ a recent change? It is hard for me to believe that a leopard can change his spots. Isn't it safer to say that he has always made a damn good living off of teaching ninjutsu?


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## Cryozombie (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *Jeez....
> 
> Such honesty. I am continually amazed at the fact that there are so many morons in the Bujinkan, but Bujinkan members are allowed to cut loose with such honest critique of each other.
> ...



Is it really that different in the Bujinkan than in ay other arts?  Does school A not bag on School B in say... Kempo or TKD?  I would be really supprised to learn that was the case, and that its a Bujinkan only thing...


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## Shadow Hunter (Aug 6, 2003)

Actually I could tell you about my experiences in kenpo politics. That could get really messy.

But what surprises me is that in kenpo and other arts they have different orginizations taking shots at each other. There is no grand leader calling the shots between the different factions. But the Bujinkan is headed by Masaaki Hatsumi and you guys spend so much time taking shots at each other inside your own orginization!!!

Yes you do sound like a bunch of screaming children. But if I were to ask a question about an instructor like the guy who runs full page ads in Black Belt I know that I will get both sides of the story on him instead of the official line.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 6, 2003)

Shadowhunter, Im curious, and please DON'T take this as an attack, I'm really curious... 

You posted in another Ninjutsu thread about the Sulsa:



> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *
> 
> Their training, from what we know of it, is hell on earth. Only a few survive to become operatives. They take political prisoners, (females mainly- and if they are pregnent even better) tie them to posts and give the recruit a knife to kill them without mercy. Later, they are thrown in rooms with male inmates and forced to fight and kill them.
> ...



Is this the same art your profile says you are a senior practitoner of????  I HOPE NOT! 

If so How the HECK do you get involved in that???  And whats up with an art that forces you to murder pregnant women?  AND WHY would you even TELL people you were involved with that???


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## Shadow Hunter (Aug 6, 2003)

Technopunk,
Why didn't you post that under the thread it was part of instead of here?

And to answer your question, the tradition I study and what North Korean commandos study probably has no connection at all. We really do not know too much about them, only that they do the same type of job the ancient ninja and sulsa did. If they do have some link to the past, then they have nothing to do with the tradition I have studied for several generations at least.

Take a look at what certain ex-members of your orginization have done (every MA orginization has ex-members that do evil stuff) and ask if you and your teacher are responsible. Are you going to cast stones at everyone who studies karate because someone who has studied it molested some of his students?


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## twinkletoes (Aug 7, 2003)

A Note on the Name:

Japanese Characters are often compound characters--that is, one character is made up of smaller ones.

When Hayes changed the name to To Shin Do, he took the character for "Nin" (as in "Ninpo", "Ninjutsu" etc.) and split it in half.  (The character for "Nin", which is also the character for "Shinobi" is "Sword" over "Spirit").  When you split Sword and Spirit into two characters, and put them in a row like that, they are pronounced "To" (sword) "Shin" (spirit).  Then he added "Do" as in "Judo", "Aikido," "Karate-do", etc.  

Perhaps he did it because he wanted To Shin Do to be more of a "character development-aimed art," instead of a combative pursuit.  At this point I am merely speculating.  However, there is some sneaky punnery going on here in the creation of the name "To Shin Do."

~TT


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## Cryozombie (Aug 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *Technopunk,
> Why didn't you post that under the thread it was part of instead of here?*



I dunno... cuz we were posting here  I guess... I considered starting anew thread alltogether...



> *
> And to answer your question, the tradition I study and what North Korean commandos study probably has no connection at all.  *



Ok, I really had no Idea at all... thats why i asked... I had never heard of Sulsa anything until that post... 



> *
> Take a look at what certain ex-members of your orginization have done (every MA orginization has ex-members that do evil stuff) and ask if you and your teacher are responsible. Are you going to cast stones at everyone who studies karate because someone who has studied it molested some of his students? *



No not at all... again, the only time I had head the term was in your previous post, and I read that as "You MUST KILL WOMEN" to be part of that organization, not "SOME PEOPLE HAVE KILLED WOMEN" 

But... again, I wanted to know, thats why I asked if it was the same group... I wasn't trying to cast stones...


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## r erman (Aug 7, 2003)

Wow...

There is so much erroneous info on SKH out there.

Is To Shin Do watered down?  From what I've seen, no.  It's far more effective earlier on than bujinkan budo taijutsu as typically taught.  

There is, however, less emphasis on proper, elongated, classical tsuki, and more emphasis on silly stuff like adrenal stress training, verbal de-escalation, situational awareness, defenses against common/rage attacks...etc.  So, no, it's not like the japanese shihan teach.  Obviously, with Hayes' long-standing involvement with Buddhism there is also a fair amount of self-development using buddhist principles.

Is it commercial?  Absolutely.  It's the one thing that bugs me about his program--I still adhere to the old extended-family dojo philosophy--not, here sign this contract, and this collection agency will send you a monthly statement, and with a two year commitment you can sign up for the blackbelt club  .  Of course I'm not trying to make a living at teaching either.  

Has ukemi been eliminated, because it's too stressful?  No.  Do Quest teachers/students have poor taijutsu?  No.  In fact SKH has always had much higher standards than many, many other teachers.  I've known students who've trained regularly for a decade or more and barely been second or third dan.  Not at all like many of the six-year-shidoshi running around the booj.

What else?  Oh yeah, is he out of the loop?  Quit the Bujinkan?  Kicked out?  Jeez, guys, why don't you send an e-mail and ask him?  I know people who've seen him in Japan recently with Hatsumi.  There are actually very recent pictures of him and one of his groups at hombu.  Shiraishi-Shihan was at one of his festivals teaching a few years ago...

I think to shin do is a culmination of what hayes has been moving towards since the 80's--an effective, modern self-defense system based on classical methodology.  It's packaged well--maybe too well for some of us 'traditional-minded' folks.  Kinda reminds me of a taijutsu version of Krav Maga, or one of the other reality-based systems that have a lot of marketing capital.

'Night

(p.s. Shadow Hunter, I don't know what political stuff you are talking about but Paul Mills is the true successor of Parker's   You really study Hwa Rang?  Which 'branch'?)


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## Deaf (Aug 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by r erman _
> *Wow...
> 
> There is so much erroneous info on SKH out there.
> *



Such as?  



> *
> Is To Shin Do watered down?  From what I've seen, no.  It's far more effective earlier on than bujinkan budo taijutsu as typically taught.
> *



And you have the experience to back this up?  You have personally trained in the Bujinkan for how long?  Just want to make sure that the above statement is based on experience and not some kyu/sho-dan from ToShinDo who thinks they know Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu because of their rank.

Even Hayes has said that his system is "distilled" and from personal experience in training in both Bujinkan and ToShinDo, it is watered down if you ask me.  People not bending their knees and bending their backs, trying to force the techniques to work.  Only a very few (those to whom have been training with Hayes before his total immerse into ToShinDo) have I seen them effectively do a technique.



> *
> There is, however, less emphasis on proper, elongated, classical tsuki, and more emphasis on silly stuff like adrenal stress training, verbal de-escalation, situational awareness, defenses against common/rage attacks...etc.  So, no, it's not like the japanese shihan teach.  Obviously, with Hayes' long-standing involvement with Buddhism there is also a fair amount of self-development using buddhist principles.*



I think the keyword is LESS EMPHASIS on PROPER taijutsu!  Granted, that Hayes has geared this art for more "up-scale and modern" circumstances however in the process he has also left out a LOT of the necessary skills that I believe are essential in dealing with attacks even in this day and age!  Such as proper balance, proper posture and timing etc.  Who said that the Bujinkan doesn't practice those same type of "silly stuff" that you mentioned?  And what is wrong with how Hatsumi Sensei or the Shihan teach classes?



> *
> Is it commercial?  Absolutely.  It's the one thing that bugs me about his program--I still adhere to the old extended-family dojo philosophy--not, here sign this contract, and this collection agency will send you a monthly statement, and with a two year commitment you can sign up for the blackbelt club  .  Of course I'm not trying to make a living at teaching either.
> *



There is nothing wrong with being commercial and making a living BUT if you are going to teach martial arts then I believe it is a responsibility of the person offering the service to provide the correct skills.  Otherwise all that person is really doing is cheating people.  The only thing that I see people acquiring from ToShinDo is a positive personal/spiritual experience that for some people is GREAT but the physical aspect is solely lacking.



> *
> Has ukemi been eliminated, because it's too stressful?  No.  Do Quest teachers/students have poor taijutsu?  No.  In fact SKH has always had much higher standards than many, many other teachers.  I've known students who've trained regularly for a decade or more and barely been second or third dan.  Not at all like many of the six-year-shidoshi running around the booj.
> *



I'm sure the ukemi issue is a per instructors' choice but from many of the ToShinDo people I have seen training and have talked to...ukemi is no longer emphasized as much as it should be thus alot of people's skills are obviously poor quality.  And just for the record, what do you think ukemi is?  Punching and kicking bags?  Or rolling and evading skills?  Oh I can name a few teachers and students who have HORRIBLE taijutsu and I can name a few teachers and students who have good taijutsu.  You'll find that in any art.  Time and rank rarely have anything to do with it!  IMHO it all boils down to the quality of instruction an individual receives!  If it sucks then that person is gonna suck! 



> *
> What else?  Oh yeah, is he out of the loop?  Quit the Bujinkan?  Kicked out?  Jeez, guys, why don't you send an e-mail and ask him?  I know people who've seen him in Japan recently with Hatsumi.  There are actually very recent pictures of him and one of his groups at hombu.  Shiraishi-Shihan was at one of his festivals teaching a few years ago...
> *



Never stated that Hayes was outta the Bujinkan.  However, he has NOT been seen as regularly as many others.  Sure I know that Hayes has been to Japan recently and probably frequently but has he trained?  Really I could care less about it since that is his perogative. 

Geez dude...you are talking what?  6 or 7 years ago?  Is that what you consider recent?  I was there when Shirashi Sensei was there at the Dayton Dojo and trained.  

If my memory serves me correct, Hayes actually "dissed" the Bujinkan and it's methods in a magazine dedicated to Ninjutsu that was published about a year ago or so.  I believe the magazine was titled "Ninjutsu".  Everyone is entitled to their opinions so I have no beef there, but what I do NOT agree with is that ToShinDo dojos, instructors and students stating that they ARE part of the Bujinkan when in FACT the ARE NOT part of it.  Do you have a Bujinkan membership card?  Does your instructor have an up to date Shidoshi membership card?  They are ToShinDo.  Which if you ask me, is a totally different art that is based of of Hayes' experience in the Bujinkan.  I don't understand WHY people cannot get this or understand that concept.



> *
> I think to shin do is a culmination of what hayes has been moving towards since the 80's--an effective, modern self-defense system based on classical methodology.  It's packaged well--maybe too well for some of us 'traditional-minded' folks.  Kinda reminds me of a taijutsu version of Krav Maga, or one of the other reality-based systems that have a lot of marketing capital.
> *



Oh puh-leaze!  Do you honestly believe that?  Packaged well...maybe too well?  Being "distilled" is a well packaged deal huh?  Sorry but too much distilling causes breakdown.

Deaf


----------



## r erman (Aug 11, 2003)

Man, you seem to have a lot of animosity.  



> _Originally posted by Deaf _
> *Such as?*




I think I pretty well laid out some of the misinfo in my post.  On the other hand there are those I've known who have a legitimate  beef with Mr Hayes and some of the fanciful stuff he has opined in the past.  I also think it should be fairly obvious I'm not involved with To Shin Do, as...I...criticized...the...commercial...slant...of...the...program...,(ahem)




> *And you have the experience to back this up?  You have personally trained in the Bujinkan for how long?  *




Been training since the early nineties.  



> *Just want to make sure that the above statement is based on experience and not some kyu/sho-dan from ToShinDo who thinks they know Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu because of their rank.*




I'd like to make sure your bias is based on experience and not some bujinkan kyu/yudansha who thinks they know Budo Taijutsu because of their rank  .



> *Even Hayes has said that his system is "distilled" and from personal experience in training in both Bujinkan and ToShinDo, it is watered down if you ask me.  People not bending their knees and bending their backs, trying to force the techniques to work.  Only a very few (those to whom have been training with Hayes before his total immerse into ToShinDo) have I seen them effectively do a technique.
> 
> Oh puh-leaze!  Do you honestly believe that?  Packaged well...maybe too well?  Being "distilled" is a well packaged deal huh?  Sorry but too much distilling causes breakdown.*




Uh, I won't deny I know what you are trying to say, but, distilling is to derive/extract the essence of(i.e. concentrate), dilluting is watering down.  They are completely opposite terms.

The 'too-well' packaging I refer to is the slick, commercial, McDojo feel--but that type of product is what sells...and he wants to get what he has to offer out to the most people.

And yeah, I think Hayes is more worried about self defense than having beginners get, oh,  Kocho Dori down pat.  




> *I think the keyword is LESS EMPHASIS on PROPER taijutsu!  Granted, that Hayes has geared this art for more "up-scale and modern" circumstances however in the process he has also left out a LOT of the necessary skills that I believe are essential in dealing with attacks even in this day and age!  Such as proper balance, proper posture and timing etc.  Who said that the Bujinkan doesn't practice those same type of "silly stuff" that you mentioned?  And what is wrong with how Hatsumi Sensei or the Shihan teach classes?*




Dawg, you twisted my words around, LOL.  I have seen some of his people lacking some of these skills, but I've seen far more in the booj not have a clue about anything but playtime and paddy-cake taijutsu.  

Nothing is _wrong_ with the way the shihan teach, but the emphasis is different.  If you want to learn a historical body of knowledge primarily, Japan is the way to go.  No arguments here.  That's what I'm trying to say.  There are far too many people hanging self-defense on their window signs(not just booj), however, and then pontificating about henka and nagare, but having no idea how to defend themselves from anything resembling a rage attack/sucker punch/weapon assault.  If they can show you all the Moguri kata, but zilch about third party intervention, or verbal de-escalation they fit into this group.

How can a person claim to teach self-defense when they spend more time on shogei, and less, if any, on defending from concealable edged-weapons--the most readily available improvised weapon in our society?  If you want to teach a cultural treasure first, then do so.  But be up-front with those you are teaching.  If you claim to be teaching something you aren't, that's being dishonest, and cheating people.

Personally, I have some major disagreements with the lack of intense, resistance-oriented training in a majority of the bujinkan(Hayes training method is not entirely exempt from this either, BTW).




> *There is nothing wrong with being commercial and making a living BUT if you are going to teach martial arts then I believe it is a responsibility of the person offering the service to provide the correct skills.  Otherwise all that person is really doing is cheating people.  The only thing that I see people acquiring from ToShinDo is a positive personal/spiritual experience that for some people is GREAT but the physical aspect is solely lacking.*




Refer to the above for most of my response to this, although I will say I still really don't like 'commercial' schools.



> *I'm sure the ukemi issue is a per instructors' choice but from many of the ToShinDo people I have seen training and have talked to...ukemi is no longer emphasized as much as it should be thus alot of people's skills are obviously poor quality.  And just for the record, what do you think ukemi is?  Punching and kicking bags?  Or rolling and evading skills?  Oh I can name a few teachers and students who have HORRIBLE taijutsu and I can name a few teachers and students who have good taijutsu.  You'll find that in any art.  Time and rank rarely have anything to do with it!  IMHO it all boils down to the quality of instruction an individual receives!  If it sucks then that person is gonna suck!*




Ukemi's that stuff with pressure points right, like Dim Mak?  Just kidding.  For the record I do know what that rollin' 'round is called.  The second part of your paragraph seems to line up with what I'm saying above  .



> *Geez dude...you are talking what?  6 or 7 years ago?  Is that what you consider recent?  I was there when Shirashi Sensei was there at the Dayton Dojo and trained.  *



Has it really been that long?  My how time goes by.

If we ever meet, we can roll, and after I'll buy the first round.

Anything else would probably be better served in pm.

'Night


----------



## Deaf (Aug 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by r erman _
> *
> Man, you seem to have a lot of animosity.
> *



No, not really.  I really could care less about ToShinDo or SKH really, I do however have a problem when ToShinDo practioners or dojos claim that because they are ToShinDo, they are automatically in the Bujinkan which is not true.  Just a matter of pride and not wanting people to think nor compare me with ToShinDo.



> *I also think it should be fairly obvious I'm not involved with To Shin Do, as...I...criticized...the...commercial...slant...of...the...program...,(ahem)*



No you did not make it fairly obvious that you were not involved in ToShinDo.  The only thing you did criticize was the commercialism of the business.  From all aspects of your posts, it looked very much like you were a practioner of ToShinDo.  Sorry if I did misinterpret that.



> *Been training since the early nineties.
> I'd like to make sure your bias is based on experience and not some bujinkan kyu/yudansha who thinks they know Budo Taijutsu because of their rank .*



What area are you from?  Just curious really.  

My opinions are based totally on experience (training within the SKH system and Bujinkan both).  I have no bias but I do know poor taijutsu when I see it. 



> *Dawg, you twisted my words around, LOL. I have seen some of his people lacking some of these skills, but I've seen far more in the booj not have a clue about anything but playtime and paddy-cake taijutsu. *



Well I can't disagree with you nor agree with you there.  I have not had the exposure to different groups/practicioners within the Bujinkan except for my surrounding area and they are pretty damn good IMHO.



> *Has it really been that long? My how time goes by.
> 
> If we ever meet, we can roll, and after I'll buy the first round.
> *



Yes time does go by quickly!  And I'll buy the second round.

Deaf


----------



## r erman (Aug 12, 2003)

I live in Southwest Missouri.


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## Brother John (Oct 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by higuma _
> *And when the student advances to a certain point the art starts to be his/hers.  It is a living, growing, evolving art and as such is in constant flux.  Nature is not static and neither is the Bujinkan. *



This is the very thing that I think makes Bujinkan Ninpo so very interesting and enticing.

As I learned in studying biology:
The organism that adapts
survives
The organism that adapts best
thrives

Your Brother
John


----------



## albert (Nov 12, 2003)

Hayes' "Quest Centers?" that's hilarious.


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## arnisador (Nov 26, 2003)

I saw in the current (Jan. 2004) issue of Black Belt that there is now a study-at-home option for this:
http://www.skhquest.com/proshop/default.aspx



> Stephen K. Hayes is your personal instructor in these in-depth training DVDs exploring the classical roots of To-Shin Do. Each training session maps directly to skill certification available at the Hombu Dojo.


----------



## arnisador (Nov 26, 2003)

> Once you know that you just have to go all the way to Black Belt, you may be invited to join the Black Belt Club - a special group of advancing students who already "feel like a Black Belt inside" even though still wearing a colored belt on the outside.
> 
> Twice-per-month Black Belt Club classes provide training in skills that will be expected as part of your Black Belt test. BBC "advanced self-protection" classes include techniques related to knife, stick, firearm defenses, and ground submission self-defense, along with specialty seminars related to the Japanese roots of our To-Shin Do martial art.



Black Belt Clubs--always a warning sign, to my mind.


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## shiro (Aug 2, 2004)

Yes He does still teach the Bujinkan Style Martial arts Samurai and Ninjutsu fighting wazas. But The Quest Centers do not only teach those. They teach ToShin Do, Meditation, Yoga, TaiChi, Ground fighting. They are always changing things to try to provide for their students.
I hope this answered Your original Question.


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## gmunoz (Aug 2, 2004)

GouRonin said:
			
		

> If the quest centers under hays are not teaching "authentic ninjitsu" what is it exactly they are teaching?


I would recommend calling the Quest Center in Dayton personally to answer all your questions specifically regarding To-Shin Do.  Seems like most of the answers you're getting about To-Shin Do and Quest are biased in favor of Bujinkan organization.  Try getting your about TSD and Quest directly from them.  It may help.  

Quest Centers have a variety of different programs.  To-Shin Do is only one aspect of it all.  To-Shin Do is a 21st century application of Ninjutsu as the perils of ancient Japan are non-existent today.  No one today is going to use a blow-gun in a fight.  TSD is a self-defense style for today.  

Another progam that Quest Centers offer is the traditional Ninjutsu that was taught to Mr. Hayes from Dr. Hatsumi.  If one prefers the more traditional art then that aspect is available as well.  Yoga and meditation are among other things taught through the Quest system.  

Again, it would be better to get your specific Quest and TSD answers by calling and asking personally.  From this forum you're most likely to get naive and biased towards one's personal ninjutsu style.  Everyone is entitled to their perference and opinion - that's alright.  But if you have specific questions about Quest call so as to not allow haters to corrupt your decisionmaking.


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## gmunoz (Aug 2, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> But... again, I wanted to know, thats why I asked if it was the same group... I wasn't trying to cast stones...


Oh no!  Never! Not you!


----------



## Cryozombie (Aug 2, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Oh no!  Never! Not you!



Would you like me to?  Probably not...


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## gmunoz (Aug 2, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Would you like me to? Probably not...


Please don't!  I don't know what I'd do!  OH PLEASE!


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## shiro (Aug 11, 2004)

Gmunoz
I just wanted to tell You to follow Your gut on Your training.
This is my last post so good luck to all the people whos heart is in their training.
Good Day


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## Enson (Aug 12, 2004)

i personally don't think this should be your last post shiro! i have seen this happen so many times. fellow ma'rs try and put you down so much that you just leave. come hang out in the modern ninjutsu with us. i think you could be a great help!


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## Gary Arthur (Oct 26, 2004)

I have just taken a brief look at the posts here on TO-SHIN DO and it seems that most seem to be very negative about it. One person even mentions that the TO-SHIN DO schools are closing down left right and centre. well my partner has just returned from the Florida Quest Centre in September and he said that he could not believe how busy it was. Maybe that person could give us some actual facts about which Quest Centres have closed.

As some one involved in Ninjutsu for nearly 19 years and having trained with Hatsumi, Tanemura and An Shu Hayes on more than one occasion, I feel, as do my students that An Shu Hayes continues, as he always has done to provide top quality martial arts instruction. Therefore on the 12th November 2004 My self and my partner Steve Auburn will be opening the very first UK Quest Centre. 

I agree that the way An Shu Hayes teaches may not be for everyone, and neither is Genbukan, Bujinkan or any other organisation. We are all different and that what makes us interesting, but it seems to me that many of these post are put up here with the people making those posts having never trained with Stephen K Hayes, In TO-SHIN DO or seen the DVDs. Most of what seems to be on this site is rumour.

Check it out yourselves, you may be surprised.


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## gmunoz (Oct 26, 2004)

Gary, you've really dun it now!  Welcome to martialtalk.  Perhaps you can help clear up most of the rumors out there.  Again welcome.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 26, 2004)

Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> Maybe that person could give us some actual facts about which Quest Centres have closed.
> 
> 
> Check it out yourselves, you may be surprised.


 I don't know about left and right... but the Quest Center I attended briefly on RT 19 in... hmmm... I forget specifically which suburb of Chicago it was... but it was on Rt 19... is closed. 

 I dont think that answers your question, because it's only 1 school, but Its the only one I know of that closed. I also think, but this is just my opinion, that it closed because it was too close to the Quest Center that opened in Naperville.

 Ive also stated in the past... My MAIN concern with the training there was the "Its all about the Benjamins" attitude... Requirements for a 1 year contract paid in ADVANCE, and as part of the dojo curriculum we were required to purchase and read books by hayes in order to rank test. (The problem I had with that, is that I had several of the books required, however, we were required to purchase them FROM the dojo.)

 The whole thing seemed very $MONEY$ and I was really put off... Even when Hayes was out here doing a seminar over the Summer he was charging 30 bucks to get into the autograph session/book signing... 

  I was glad when I found the Bujinkan after that and discoverd Ninjutsu was NOT all moneymill.


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## Enson (Oct 26, 2004)

gary arthur,

welcome to martial talk. will be looking forward to your post on modern ninjutsu. your advice and guidence should be a great help.

peace
-mt moderator-


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## Deaf (Nov 1, 2004)

Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> I agree that the way An Shu Hayes teaches may not be for everyone, and neither is Genbukan, Bujinkan or any other organisation. We are all different and that what makes us interesting, but it seems to me that many of these post are put up here with the people making those posts having never trained with Stephen K Hayes, In TO-SHIN DO or seen the DVDs. Most of what seems to be on this site is rumour.
> 
> Check it out yourselves, you may be surprised.




Well Gary, You are correct that what Hayes teaches may not be for everyone and that we are all different.  However I do speak from experience.  I trained with Hayes for close to 2 years and have many other friends who have trained with Hayes longer than I.  

I don't dispute that Hayes is an excellent business man and knows how to run a dojo and bring in the $$.  Neither do I dispute that his ToShinDo cirriculum is decent.  What I do disagree with is people getting confused and claiming that because they are ToShinDo then they are Bujinkan as well.  This is false and it really ticks me off because Hayes makes NO attempt to clear this up but lets it continue because at the end of the day...it all means that there is more $$ going into his pocket.  

So all in all.  I give Hayes points for being a successful business man but I wouldn't recommend anyone learning from him today because I truly believe he has lost the "magic"!  He had it in the past but somewhere down the line...it slowly faded away.

~Deaf~


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 2, 2004)

I don't know but it seems to me at times that Hayes emphasizes all the esoteric stuff that isn't a core part of the Bujinkan simply because that is what sells, similar to the reason many Bujinkan dojos in for example Australia have incorporated MMA training into their curriculum - not necessarily because they find the Bujinkan lacking, but simply because you just can't be sure to attract as many students by offering nothing but traditional budo.

As we all know, during the early 80's there was a severe shortage on information about ninjutsu as well as budo taijutsu, and as I understand it, this is the reason Hayes mixed up the training with a lot of stuff gathered elsewhere, and what he wrote about Mikkyo and Shugendo isn't really compatible with the training in budo taijutsu (for starters, in esoteric buddhism meditation is the key to understanding kuji, and in budo it's the training in itself; also, if Hatsumi sensei has taken so long to initiate any of his students in kuji, it's probably reasonable to assume he has a reason for doing so, no?).

Even if there are similarities, the applications of mandala, mudra and mantra are totally separate - at least if you want to believe Hatsumi sensei - which means that you cannot simply pick something from buddhism and apply it on budo. Overly focusing on esoteric, energy-channeling parts and so on is dangerous according to Hatsumi sensei since it may lead you to neglect your training in taijutsu.


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## Gary Arthur (Nov 2, 2004)

In response to Ninravus it seems that today there is less of the esoteric side of Ninjutsu talked about than in the past. I remember in the 1990s Bujinkan instructors here in the UK offering classes in Kuji Kiri at an extra cost on a seminar when they knew little or nothing about the process. I also remember articles by people like Bo Munthe and others writing articles about kuji.

Stephen Hayes is really the only person that has gotten involved at any real level, in the esoteric buddhist philosophies that are part of Ninpo. Doesn't Hatsumi and Tanemura do Kuji, and isn't there a photo of Takamatsu doing Kuji. 

OK the Kuji process may not be a core part of the Bujinkan today but Hatsumi Sensei could start teaching it tomorrow. I have certainly been on courses with hatsumi where he has shown Kuji. I remember back in 1995 in England when he showed a Mudra that allows one to stop it raining. he then walked around showing everyone this Kuji. I think it was called Kumo Giri (Cloud cutting)

Stephen Hayes uses the esoteric buddhist approach to teaching Ninjutsu, that I have no doubt. He has always taught from the concept of the Go Dai (earth, water, fire etc) but who doesnt. I've even seen copies of the Ten Chi Jin Manual that contain these elements. Is'nt the Godai Esoteric and related to Mikkyo?
Then what about the Gogyo, Ten Chi Jin, arn't these esoteric yet part of the Bujinkan. Hatsumi sensei has spoken about these concepts in Sanmyaku.

We should also consider that schools such as Shinden Fudo Ryu and Gyokko Ryu have strong ties with esoteric buddhism as do ninja like Momochi Sandayu and Takamatsu was a Tendai Priest.

So I do'nt really understand where your coming from.

I feel that Stephen Hayes has taken the concepts from the mandala's and uniquely applies them to todays world where they make sense to the general public today. One does not have to become a buddhist monk or learn the Kuji process, to learn the Stephen K Hayes martial arts.

We all have ways of teaching martial arts dependent on our background. I have seen websites in Bujinkan where people are claiming to teach NLP along side Ninjutsu. Others teach Amatsu Tatara Medicine, which I would suggest are not strictly part of the Bujinkan either.

You make the statement that in the early 80s there was a severe shortage of information about ninjutsu and therefore Stepehn Hayes mixed other things in his books. Are you implying here that Stephen Hayes knew so Little abou Ninjutsu that he had to look around for other stuff to fill his books out. 
Well I trained with David Koss (Shadows of Iga) in 1995 and with An Shu Hayes in 1996 and I can tell you neither of them were short on information when it came to Ninjutsu. In 1996 Hayes taught a four day courses showing technique after technique and I filled up nearly two note books.
Stephen Hayes short on information to write his books?
I Don't think so.

You make the statement that one cannot attract as many students by offering just traditional Budo, and you may have a point there. Most people it seems do not wish to study medieval ways of combat, but are interested in how they can protect themselves and use the Ninja arts in the world today.

The TO-SHIN DO approach, from my limited experience seems to be a unique way of teaching people how they can defend themselves using the philosophies, concepts and techniques of Ninjutsu, in todays western world, whilst being able to relate some of the esoteric concepts related to ninjutsu in their life. I certainly have found over the last 19 years that some of these concepts have been invaluable in my life.


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## Gary Arthur (Nov 2, 2004)

In reference to te above post. I trained with David Koss in 1985 and Stephen Hayes in 1986, not 1995 and 1996.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 2, 2004)

Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> Stephen Hayes is really the only person that has gotten involved at any real level, in the esoteric buddhist philosophies that are part of Ninpo.


As pertaining to Mikkyo and Shugendo, that may be true. Not in regards to what Hatsumi sensei has taught about the subject, AFAIK.



			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> OK the Kuji process may not be a core part of the Bujinkan today but Hatsumi Sensei could start teaching it tomorrow.


I have heard that he actually already has, although only to people with 13th dan and above.



			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> He has always taught from the concept of the Go Dai (earth, water, fire etc) but who doesnt.


If I'd have a nickle for every time I've heard that being referred to in training, I'd have a nickle.



			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> Then what about the Gogyo, Ten Chi Jin, arn't these esoteric yet part of the Bujinkan.


If you're referring to the Tenchijin Ryaku no Maki, I'm not so sure about the esoteric aspects of it (though anyone knowledgeable about the subject would be welcome to enlighten me). 
As for godai/gogyo, I believe most of what Hayes wrote about these concepts in for example "Legacy of the Night Warrior" was taken from other sources that had nothing to do with the Bujinkan.



			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> We should also consider that schools such as Shinden Fudo Ryu and Gyokko Ryu have strong ties with esoteric buddhism as do ninja like Momochi Sandayu and Takamatsu was a Tendai Priest./
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Gary Arthur (Nov 2, 2004)

Nimravus

Do you realise that your posts are full of such comments such as "I have heard" "As far as I know" and "I think". Yet you never actually state any facts like "I have actually trained with that person and I have seen or experienced"

You mention that Amatsu is part of Kukishin, and so is the Kuji Process. The Kuji Fudo Kanishibari no In comes from this school, whilst Futen Goshin comes from Gyokko Ryu.

And if you talk about the Kuji process, then the finger positions or mudra realate to the mandala as doi the five elements. 

Ten Chi Jin relates to various scrolls found in Ninjutsu and to the 30 ways of disapearing called Goton Santon No Ho. Gogyo is a part of this process.

I also quote from Tanemuras Ninpo Secrets "Ninpo is a true martial art based on martial strategy, techniques and practices that can be traced through Shugendo and Mikkyo.

Hatsumi Sensei talks at length about the Godai in Sanmyaku Volume 1, number 3. 

You seem to have been caught up in the word "Esoteric" or hidden as opossed to the word Exoteric, like a lot of these things are hidden, yet they are a fundamental part of training.Ninjutsu is a Holistic martial art. We seem to catorgorise everything and say 'This is Taijutsu, This is Kenjutsu, This is Kuji etc. Yet in reality Ninjutsu is not really learnt that way. I was once told on a seminar that you start learning the Kuji process through Taijutsu. 

In fact it was Bud Malmstrom in an article in Ninja magazine suggested that when one practices  say yari, one is also practicing sword etc.

As for Hayes Knowledge of Ninjutsu back in the early 80s, well were you actually training with Hayes at that time to make that observation, or is this something you have heard from someone else. 

I appreciate that maybe you just wanted the Hayes books such as Warrior ways of enlightenment to just contain Taijutsu Techniques, but these books are some of the biggest selling books in martial arts circles, and they have done exactly what they have set out to do, introduce ninjutsu to the western world and made ninjutsu a popular martial art. 

By putting in the books aspects of what you term religious side, I think shows the buyer that there is more to ninjutsu than just killing and maiming someone. And shows that Ninjutsu is a comprehensive martial art based on a philosophy of dealing with the protection of the body, mind and spirit, which of course what Ninjutsu is. 

As for your quote about the techniques of Ninjutsu being outdated, well that has not been said. Japan is a different culture to America and if we were living in Japan there may be no reason to change it. But  America is a very different culture to Japan. Look at the different murder rates for one thing, and ask yourself how many people in Japan carry a gun.
In the States, with its gun culture, training has to be different. But is'nt this what Hatsumi Sensei has said people should do, make the art their own.


----------



## Enson (Nov 2, 2004)

Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> Nimravus
> 
> Do you realise that your posts are full of such comments such as "I have heard" "As far as I know" and "I think". Yet you never actually state any facts like "I have actually trained with that person and I have seen or experienced"
> .


sounds like nimravus also practices drn... will we see sources to your claims? :idunno: 

peace


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 3, 2004)

Yes, I do know that I do relay a lot of hearsay. It would therefore be appreciated if you would be so kind as to point out any eventual unaccuracies. That there are people that have been initiated in kuji besides Hayes, however, is a fact, plain and simple.

I know that there is kuji to be found in the Kukishin ryu as well - but that is not the same application of it as in Mikkyo and Shugendo.

For the sake of clarification - when you speak of Ten Chi Jin, are you talking about Tenchijin Ryaku no Maki?

That there are similarities in thought and philosophy to be found in Mikkyo and Shugendo as well as taoism, does not mean that you can take something from outside the Bujinkan and use it as proof of your understanding of kuji as related to martial arts.

And no, ninjutsu is not a holistic martial art. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is. While there may be kuji to be found in various kamae, in bojutsu, kenjutsu, juttejutsu etc., most of us (myself included no doubt) have still such a long way to go that delving deeper into the concepts and applications of kuji without first perfecting our taijutsu is futile.

You are however correct in your statement that attributes that are developed in yari practice carry over to other weapons, as is true with other weapons as well.

No, I did not train with Hayes in the 80's. I'll freely admit that as well. I can only relay what people I know who have trained with him tell me, as well as refer to his books (which are full of incorrect assumptions and flaws in their descriptions of taijutsu and ninjutsu; one does not have to had trained with Hayes to discover that). As far as I know, Hayes was a great teacher and fighter for what it was worth back then, but they all say that that type of training was nowhere near as advanced as today.
I agree that his books did what they were supposed to (with a vengeance). In fact, I wonder if one couldn't say that they worked a little bit too well?

I won't go further into "which is best" out of To Shin Do and Bujinkan out of respect for other forumites's apparent wishes.
As for Enson - be so kind as to read my profile, won't you?


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## Gary Arthur (Nov 3, 2004)

Nimravus
in response to you reply I quote

_*Yes, I do know that I do relay a lot of hearsay. It would therefore be appreciated if you would be so kind as to point out any eventual unaccuracies. That there are people that have been initiated in kuji besides Hayes, however, is a fact, plain and simple.*_

I appreciate the fact that you realise that you do rely on Hearsay and as such I do not feel that it is my place to point out all inaccuracies that you may have. If you do not know for sure in the first place, do not comment. You say that there are people that have be initiated into Kuji. Well first what do we mean by initiated. Do we mean shown or actually had to spend some time studying. or maybe had to go through a trial or ceremony?

_*I know that there is kuji to be found in the Kukishin ryu as well - but that is not the same application of it as in Mikkyo and Shugendo.*_

You maybe correct in stating that the Kuji of Mikkyo is different from that of the various Ryu Ha, But then the various Ryu Ha have different Kuji from each other. I think what An Shu Hayes was probably trying to do was to give readers of his books a basic idea of Kuji from the source i.e. Mikkyo. Then as an advanced student, once one understands the process one can delve into the different types of Kuji that relate to the different warrior traditions.

*For the sake of clarification - when you speak of Ten Chi Jin, are you talking about Tenchijin Ryaku no Maki?
*
Ten Chi Jin Ryaku No Maki to me simply means 'Scroll of Heaven, Earth and Man' This can in itself relate to many different things. Shinden Fudo ryu is split up into the scrolls of Ten, Chi and Jin. Takamatsu split up the Amatsu Tatara scroll into Ten, Chi and Jin, Gyokko Ryu has Ten, Chi and Jin strategies. 

*That there are similarities in thought and philosophy to be found in Mikkyo and Shugendo as well as taoism, does not mean that you can take something from outside the Bujinkan and use it as proof of your understanding of kuji as related to martial arts.
*
Just because you have not seen it in the Bujinkan does not mean it is not there, (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence), Stephen Hayes spent many years in Japan training and conversing with the grandmaster in the Japanese language. As neither of us were there in the early days when the Bujinkan first came into being, or are experts in either Taoism, Mikkyo, or in fact as knowledgable as Stephen Hayes about Bujinkan ninjutsu then we can comment no further. It is highly likely that the Bujinkan has changed in the last 30 years and what was once taught is not taught much anymore.

*And no, ninjutsu is not a holistic martial art. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is. While there may be kuji to be found in various kamae, in bojutsu, kenjutsu, juttejutsu etc., most of us (myself included no doubt) have still such a long way to go that delving deeper into the concepts and applications of kuji without first perfecting our taijutsu is futile.
*
Well what do we mean by Ninjutsu. Are we talking about one school i.e. Togakure Ryu. Surely that in itself is Holistic. Togakure Ryu includes sword, Shuriken, Metsubushi, Taijutsu, Muto Dori, Kuji etc, and moreover when practicing one art one is also practicing another. This is difficult to describe on paper but in the dojo can be demonstrated quite easily. And whilst I appreciate that you are not in a position to delve deeper into Kuji, the Hayes books as already stated contained Kuji possibly as a historical note and as a taster to future training. And if you are not at the stage yet for Kuji, why oh why are you talking about it.

*No, I did not train with Hayes in the 80's. I'll freely admit that as well. I can only relay what people I know who have trained with him tell me, as well as refer to his books (which are full of incorrect assumptions and flaws in their descriptions of taijutsu and ninjutsu; one does not have to had trained with Hayes to discover that). *

*You mention inaccurate assumptions and flaws in descriptions of taijutsu and ninjutsu. Ok can you quote a few?

**As far as I know, Hayes was a great teacher and fighter for what it was worth back then, but they all say that that type of training was nowhere near as advanced as today.
I agree that his books did what they were supposed to (with a vengeance). In fact, I wonder if one couldn't say that they worked a little bit too well?

*Hayes was a great teacher and fighter back then, and still is today. Unfortunately you have neither trained with him in the past or in the present.
* 
**I won't go further into "which is best" out of To Shin Do and Bujinkan out of respect for other forumites's apparent wishes.*

And how would you prove that anyway. Oh I know maybe you'll listen to a few more peoples opinions instead of checking it out yourself and visiting a Quest centre and putting your questions to An Shu Hayes himself.


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## heretic888 (Nov 3, 2004)

> I appreciate the fact that you realise that you do rely on Hearsay and as such I do not feel that it is my place to point out all inaccuracies that you may have. If you do not know for sure in the first place, do not comment.



No offense, Gary, but do you "know for sure" any of the things that you have claimed?? You basically seem to be relying on Hayes' books (which there is no secret that they have inaccuracies), and/or hearsy yourself.



> You maybe correct in stating that the Kuji of Mikkyo is different from that of the various Ryu Ha, But then the various Ryu Ha have different Kuji from each other. I think what An Shu Hayes was probably trying to do was to give readers of his books a basic idea of Kuji from the source i.e. Mikkyo.



Nimravus wasn't saying that there weren't different mudra in different traditions. He was saying that the _application_ of mudra in Budo Taijutsu is different than the _application_ in Mikkyo. I have been told this, as well.



> Just because you have not seen it in the Bujinkan does not mean it is not there, (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence), Stephen Hayes spent many years in Japan training and conversing with the grandmaster in the Japanese language. As neither of us were there in the early days when the Bujinkan first came into being, or are experts in either Taoism, Mikkyo, or in fact as knowledgable as Stephen Hayes about Bujinkan ninjutsu then we can comment no further. It is highly likely that the Bujinkan has changed in the last 30 years and what was once taught is not taught much anymore.



Ummm.... more hearsay??  :idunno: 



> Well what do we mean by Ninjutsu. Are we talking about one school i.e. Togakure Ryu. Surely that in itself is Holistic. Togakure Ryu includes sword, Shuriken, Metsubushi, Taijutsu, Muto Dori, Kuji etc, and moreover when practicing one art one is also practicing another.



It is very rare that any koryu would actually teach only "one thing". There are many ryuha that are hailed as "kenjutsu schools", but they teach much more than swords. That doesn't mean that when you are learning grappling in that school, that you are actually doing "kenjutsu".

Same with Togakure ryu and "ninjutsu".



> You mention inaccurate assumptions and flaws in descriptions of taijutsu and ninjutsu. Ok can you quote a few?



I think his use of the Godai in associations with certain kamae are the one of the major ones (i.e. jumonji no kamae = "fire element", without exception). There was also the blanketing of everything taught in the Bujinkan as "ninjutsu" during the 1980's.

Well, those are my opinions anyway. Laterz.  :asian:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 3, 2004)

Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> If you do not know for sure in the first place, do not comment.


Indeed, no comment on that. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" someone just said...? 



			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> You say that there are people that have be initiated into Kuji. Well first what do we mean by initiated. Do we mean shown or actually had to spend some time studying. or maybe had to go through a trial or ceremony?


I mean people who have been shown and allowed to practice it as an extension of their existing knowledge of taijutsu. Then there is the supposed "blood oath" that was taken by several of the Japanese shihan back in the 70's or something, but that's another matter altogether.



			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> I think what An Shu Hayes was probably trying to do was to give readers of his books a basic idea of Kuji from the source i.e. Mikkyo.


Exactly, he went to Mikkyo because his kuji knowledge gathered from Hatsumi sensei was not very extensive.




			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> Ten Chi Jin Ryaku No Maki to me simply means 'Scroll of Heaven, Earth and Man' This can in itself relate to many different things. Shinden Fudo ryu is split up into the scrolls of Ten, Chi and Jin. Takamatsu split up the Amatsu Tatara scroll into Ten, Chi and Jin, Gyokko Ryu has Ten, Chi and Jin strategies.


Oookay, so does that answer my original question?




			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> Just because you have not seen it in the Bujinkan does not mean it is not there, (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence),


Did I say it wasn't there at all?



			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> It is highly likely that the Bujinkan has changed in the last 30 years and what was once taught is not taught much anymore.


Agreed.




			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> Well what do we mean by Ninjutsu. Are we talking about one school i.e. Togakure Ryu. Surely that in itself is Holistic. Togakure Ryu includes sword, Shuriken, Metsubushi, Taijutsu, Muto Dori, Kuji etc, and moreover when practicing one art one is also practicing another.


Ninjutsu in itself has nothing with physical techniques of taijutsu/kenjutsu etc. do to, it is mainly concerned with things like geology, information gathering, infiltration, and so forth.



			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> And if you are not at the stage yet for Kuji, why oh why are you talking about it.


Since when did I say that I have been exposed to kuji in training, or say that I could explain "what it's like"? 




			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> *You mention inaccurate assumptions and flaws in descriptions of taijutsu and ninjutsu. Ok can you quote a few?*


Well, for one thing, it's the assumption that ninjutsu has anything to do with physical techniques...then there's the straight swords and the black suits... then there's the edge-on-edge sword block on page 86 in "The Ninja and their Secret Fighting Art"...he's bending his knee over his foot at several times, he's flailing his arms needlessly around when performing jumping kicks, the list could go in. Technique-wise, it's mostly errors that are common even to this day. But the main flaw is his description of ninja as an ethnic group of honorable, hardworking peasants who struggled against the samurai oppression, and who were persecuted because of their alternative religion and lifestyle. Karl Friday and Steven Turnbull have both pretty much discarded the vision of ninja as low-ranking commoner who rebelled against their attackers in a way similar to that of the Okinawan revolts against the Japanese invasion.





			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> Hayes was a great teacher and fighter back then, and still is today. Unfortunately you have neither trained with him in the past or in the present.


Which is why I wrote nothing that commented on his technical expertise nowadays.



			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> Oh I know maybe you'll listen to a few more peoples opinions instead of checking it out yourself and visiting a Quest centre and putting your questions to An Shu Hayes himself.


Would love to do that, although I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask Hatsumi sensei about that when I get to Japan at the end of this month...



...and please everybody, don't tell Nagato sensei about it if I would?:anic:


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## Enson (Nov 3, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Ummm.... more hearsay?? :idunno: :asian:


are you trying to imply that hayes never trained with your grandmaster? i knew those videos were fake. hayes never had ninjutsu training...


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 3, 2004)

Gentelmen you are putting forth some good information 
Lets not spoil this thread with  little wars


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## heretic888 (Nov 3, 2004)

> are you trying to imply that hayes never trained with your grandmaster? i knew those videos were fake. hayes never had ninjutsu training...



Nope. Taken out of context, I'm afraid.


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## Gary Arthur (Nov 4, 2004)

In response to Heretic and Ninravus, a few points.

I agree that in the early days the Nine schools of the Bujinkan were called Ninjutsu by Hayes, as they were by Hatsumi. The nine schools came under the umbrella of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu. This may have been to promote the art.

Even to day when someone is genuine and asks me what martial art I study I say "Ninjutsu". (although now I am proud to say TO-SHIN DO) I could go into a more lengthy explaination and go into all the schools but I find that they loose interest or get confused. The name Ninjutsu I feel has been used in the past as a marketing tool. Its like going into Burger King and finding that they also sell chicken sandwiches and a lot more beside.
In short "Its only a name" which has served a purpose. Now of course we use names like Budo Taijutsu, Ninpo or TO-SHIN DO.

Now what has been mentioned is that Ninjutsu does not contain physical techniques. Really, I thought Togakure Ryu contained the techniques of the Santo/Soto Tonko No Kata, Mokuton Kata, and Kenjutsu. 

In reference to the Hayes books showing the Kuji, I think you'll find that the nine finger positions are related to Ninjutsu. In fact in Tanemuras Ninpo Secrets he shows a grid slash using Rin, Pyo, Toh etc. I have personally seen, as has many members of the Genbukan, Tanemura Sensei performing these Mudra prior to a seminar. But maybe Tanemura Sensei is borrowing from Mikkyo because he lacks knowledge too. And if we are going to talk about the Mandala, well as I have stated, to understand the Nine Sylables in their eastern philosophy, one has to study the Mandala, as each finger represents a buddha which is related on the mandala.

Supposed Blood Oath (Really, sounds like something we might hear Ashida Kim doing) are you sure about this. Who took it, or is it hearsay?

And finally, I'm impressed by your arm chair criticism of the Stephen Hayes techniques from the books. OK so maybe the knee went over the front foot, or the sword was edge on to another sword. What we must remember is that these photographs are snap shots of an action, which can be easily misinterpreted. Its a little like the techniques Kage Nitto which Hatsumi Sensei performed when pulling a sword across his back. The photographer took the picture just as the tsuba was near his shoulder. This led many people into believing that the Ninja drew their swords off their back. Now if we were'nt so informed it would be so easy to say "Dr Hatsumi does'nt know Ninjutsu, anybody knows the ninja dont draw swords off their back.

So in relation to the edge on edge sword stop, is it not possible that its a deflection. How many times has Hatsumi Sensei stated that you cannot really capture the movement of Ninjutsu on a video camera, let alone a book.

Oh and one final point. When I quote something on the web, its either by direct experience, through that persons words (ie direct communication, and I have had a few regular conversations with An Shu Hayes over the last few months. and E mails) or through printed primary evidence material.


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## heretic888 (Nov 4, 2004)

Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> You maybe correct in stating that the Kuji of Mikkyo is different from that of the various Ryu Ha, But then the various Ryu Ha have different Kuji from each other. I think what An Shu Hayes was probably trying to do was to give readers of his books a basic idea of Kuji from the source i.e. Mikkyo. Then as an advanced student, once one understands the process one can delve into the different types of Kuji that relate to the different warrior traditions.



"[...]it would be a serious mistake to regard the essential natures of Mikkyo Kuji and Ninja Kuji as one and the same simply because Mikkyo contains a Kuji Goshin Ho.

[...]

However, the religious forms and the martial forms were quite different in character and nature."

(Masaaki Hatsumi, Sanmyaku, Volume 2, Number 1)


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 4, 2004)

Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> Now what has been mentioned is that Ninjutsu does not contain physical techniques. Really, I thought Togakure Ryu contained the techniques of the Santo/Soto Tonko No Kata, Mokuton Kata, and Kenjutsu.


Precisely, Togakure ryu contains these things among others. Togakure ryu per se is not ninjutsu, it is a school of classical Japanese martial arts.



			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> In fact in Tanemuras Ninpo Secrets he shows a grid slash using Rin, Pyo, Toh etc. I have personally seen, as has many members of the Genbukan, Tanemura Sensei performing these Mudra prior to a seminar. But maybe Tanemura Sensei is borrowing from Mikkyo because he lacks knowledge too.


What makes you think the experience of Hayes can be compared with that of Tanemura, especially since Hayes describes in "The Ninja and the Secret Fighting Art" how he got his a$$ handed to him by said gentleman, whom at the time had already been training with Hatsumi sensei for years?



			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> And if we are going to talk about the Mandala, well as I have stated, to understand the Nine Sylables in their eastern philosophy, one has to study the Mandala, as each finger represents a buddha which is related on the mandala.


_The application of which is not the same in budo and Mikkyo regardless._



			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> Supposed Blood Oath (Really, sounds like something we might hear Ashida Kim doing) are you sure about this. Who took it, or is it hearsay?


Supposedly, a very inebriated Tetsuji Ishizuka told someone years ago that there were things the Japanese shihans had sworn an oath to Hatsumi sensei to never reveal without his permission. Most likely this simply referred to them not being allowed (at the time) to teach specific ryuha kata.



			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> Its a little like the techniques Kage Nitto which Hatsumi Sensei performed when pulling a sword across his back.


You mean kage no itto?



			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> So in relation to the edge on edge sword stop, is it not possible that its a deflection. How many times has Hatsumi Sensei stated that you cannot really capture the movement of Ninjutsu on a video camera, let alone a book.


Well, that should solve the issue of distance courses at least.


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## GBlues (Jul 27, 2008)

Couple of issues that I have is this. People talking about the price of training being in the hundreds for Toshindo. Uhmmm.....ok so it is the same with Bujinkan. Ninjutsu training isn't cheap guys. You ain't going to pay 65 dollars a month for it unless you have special circumstances. I know cause where I live, they are all charging at least 120 dollars a month. I went to one Bujinkan instructor who only teaches twice a week, and he's charging 75 bucks a month at a ymca??????? And let me tell you mister his guys are not very impressive. I don't think that even one of them could hold there own in a self-defense situation. He had a couple of women in there that were, but mostly because of how flexible they were....ahem. From my understanding traditional ninjutsu is kind of taught laxidasically at best. If you learn a technique or something of the art that night it's kind of secondary to the instructor and students walking around playing patty cake all night. Now while I am sure that there are schools in my area that do not teach in this fashion, I am only speaking on one school that I personally observed.
I am a current student at a toshindo school, and I don't pay that much, as I'm lucky if I can attend 3 to 4 times a month. I have never been told that I am part of the Bujinkan, and judging from what I have seen at the ymca, and from some individuals on here, I may quit if that is the case! I would not be proud to say that I was a member of the bujinkan at the this time, reading your posts. 
The Videos????? You guys are griping because he sells a home study course? He tells you that it is not recommended that you use it as your only source. My instructor and I talked about it and he recommended two videos for me to take with me when I go out of town, so that I have something to work with after work. Sort of a supplement to my training, and even at that, he told me to understand that they do do some things differently at the school that I train at. As it is with any martial art. No one teaches a technique or skill exactly the way it was taught to them. As far as ukemi goes, no it's not the first skill that you learn, but it is given probably more time than some of the other things on the videos. It is still very much alive in toshindo, it's just that Anshu-Hayes, feels that you should be able to protect yourself and so should learn something useful to you outside of the school first. 
Yeah, I'm walking down the road and a guy punches me in the face, I can roll, but on the way up what do I do now? Get kicked in the mouth, that's what. All of my research has lead me to believe that every practioner in ninjutsu is encouraged to make it there own, and if you decide to teach it, you will teach it that way. What is the problem if you call it toshindo or bujinkan, or genbukan. When I become a teacher maybe I'll call it something else, that fits with the way I see the art, and my students will do the same.
You guys are stuck on I study this it's the best, well that's a load of horse crap! Shouldn't you just be happy that someone who has actually trained in ninjutsu is teaching it, and promoting the art as opposed to someone who learned karate and is teaching it as ninjutsu? 
As far as it being about money, I don't see that my instructor was more than happy to have me in his classroom, and more than willing to work out an acceptable payment plan to both of us. However, I would be willing to pay his full price if I could attend more often. 
The meditations and self-improvement aspects have even come under attack in this thread. I can't see a problem with trying to make yourself a better person. That is one of the things that always attracted me to ninjutsu in the movies. It wasn't just the martial aspects, but the spiritual aspects as well. Which by the way, the mental and spiritual aspects are more important than the martial. I will tell you this the majority of the students that I have trained with, even the kids at the toshindo school, are far better than most adults I've seen in other systems, and even at the ymca guys mcdojo bujinkan.
What Anshu-Hayes has done is create a way to learn in a systematic, well structured environment, so that every night you go to class, you are not going to be walking around playing patty cake. You are going to learn something. And he most certainly makes authentic ninjutsu training available to his students. So you guys out there need to stop shooting your mouth off, and worry about your bujinkan buddies as you seem to be more worried about the name than the art. Sorry I'm angry but you guys are bad for this stuff, and I most certainly don't mean to offend, but that's how I see it.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 27, 2008)

GBlues said:


> Couple of issues that I have is this. People talking about the price of training being in the hundreds for Toshindo. Uhmmm.....ok so it is the same with Bujinkan. Ninjutsu training isn't cheap guys. You ain't going to pay 65 dollars a month for it unless you have special circumstances.


 
I pay 20 dollars a month. It's not "special circumstances" either, thats just what we pay.  

But, I also realize thats not typical of most schools.

And I don't think using videos as supplemental instruction is bad... its just guys like Hayes and VonDonk that let you rank by sending in Tape o yourself after you shell out the 100's for thier "home study courses" that get my dander up... Why not just sell me a belt rank, it would be about as effective.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 27, 2008)

GBlues said:


> and promoting the art as opposed to someone who learned karate and is teaching it as ninjutsu?


 
Oh god, I caught this after I made the other post, and I know that this is gonna start a war, because NO ONE who studies Toshindo wants to believe it... but I train with Former Shadows of Iga instructors who witnessed this first hand, and several members (or former members) of this board confirmed they saw the same thing which is what prompted them to leave Hayes organization...

When Hayes Created Toshindo he went and gave weekend seminars to TaeKwondo Schools and their like that PAID for the "honor" of being able to teach "Ninjutsu"... TWO DAYS TO A WEEK OF TRAINING and they became "Toshindo Masters" so that comment is BS, thats exactly what you have in some cases... Karate Guys passing off what they have as Ninjutsu after taking a seminar. 

Even the Quest center here was put up for sale rank and all, only the guys who bought it were senior students in TSD rather than some Karate guys... but they decided that TSD and the Bujinkan both weren't good enough so they formed their own -kan. *rolls eyes*  But if I had the cash, *I* could have been a Toshindo master.


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## GBlues (Jul 27, 2008)

Cryozombie I think that is wonderful! 20 dollars a month is a hell of alot better than 120 huh. I'm glad that you found some place that apparently you enjoy training and working out in. That's great. And it's sounds like it is very affordable, must be able to get alot of students in the classroom, give you alot of different body styles to work with. That's awesome.


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## GBlues (Jul 27, 2008)

That may be I don't know. I only know what I have seen first hand, and what little bit of research I have done on my own. I wish I could to Japan and learn from Haatsumi ( hope I spelled his name right), but funds are sparse for that kind of thing you know. Plus work. 
I know that my instructor learned from somebody he says that trained directly under Hayes. That's what I've been told. Now there are differences between what Hayes does on the videos, and what we do in class. Mostly small things, such as the way we punch, or strike is different, but the techinques for the most part are the same. So far. SO I don't know. I think it's kind of like when Bruce Lee died, alot of guys started spoutin off at the mouth about how they could stomp him. Easy to do when the guy is dead. And everything is like, that. I mean look at the big debate over Parker or tracy Kenpo. I've heard nasty things about both. How Parker Kenpo is not real Kenpo and Tracy's is better, so what. They look alot alike and the effect is basically the same. So are your friends right, could be. Are they angry maybe, I don't know. But in the martial arts world someone is always saying, " So and so isn't teaching traditional ninjutsu." Or Kenpo or taekwondo or kickboxing or whatever. Depends on your point of view. If you get something out of it, and enjoy it, what does it matter. Why, is it important whether, it's bujinkan or someone else's interpretation of bujinkan. Haatsumi doesn't practice or teach authentic bujinkan, he teaches his interpretation of it. Same as Dan Inosanto teaches his interpretation of jeet kune do.


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## Kreth (Jul 27, 2008)

GBlues said:


> Haatsumi doesn't practice or teach authentic bujinkan, he teaches his interpretation of it.


I suggest some research before you post again. The Bujinkan is an umbrella organization *created by Hatsumi sensei*.


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## kaizasosei (Jul 27, 2008)

i'm sorry but why should one change his art around just because 'people' can't handle it.?  sounds a little pretentios to me.  
who are 'people' anyhow???  surely some youngsters with lots of energy are more hardcore and able to handle much.  
 of course there will always be students that are no good?? to adapt a little to make things a bit easier without making a big deal, i can understand, but to change the art around and make up a new art that harbours little innovation or actual difference at all(other than being watered down). im sorry- i speak japanese quite well already, but what exactly does anshu mean??  i could still use some clarification on this point.  maybe explain the kanji??
  if i see someone is not talented i might well change the teachings around a bit for them sectretly. but to come right out and say ' people are too lazy or incapable of handeling the real thing-' sounds pretentios-even audacious to me.  

just trying to retort and share my honest opinion. long have i kept silent.


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## arnisador (Jul 27, 2008)

Kreth said:


> I suggest some research before you post again. The Bujinkan is an umbrella organization *created by Hatsumi sensei*.



Meanwhile, at Wikipedia they're trying to decide whether it's a ninjutsu style or not:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bujinkan#RfC:_on_defanition_type_of_organisation


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## Cryozombie (Jul 27, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Meanwhile, at Wikipedia they're trying to decide whether it's a ninjutsu style or not:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bujinkan#RfC:_on_defanition_type_of_organisation


 
Yeah but...

 any idiot can put anything into Wikipedia.  I could log in and cite some website I create that says Arnis isnt even a martial art its a dance style.  Would that make it true?


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## arnisador (Jul 27, 2008)

Well, this is a more formal WP action (an RFC), attempting to come to a conclusion that's intended to stick and be semi-enforced.


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## GBlues (Jul 27, 2008)

Well ok I'm sorry, let me put it to you this way Hatsumi doesn't teach authentic 5,000 year old ninjutsu, he teaches his interpretation of the ninjutsu he was taught, and now calls it bujinkan. You guys get to caught up in names. Who cares.
If a guy believes that the moon is made out of green cheese, should you try to destroy what he believes simply because it wrong? Or does it matter in the grand scheme of things? Probably not, and all it does is start an argument for no reason. If people want to believe they are learning a legit art, and you feel that it's not, so what? If they are learning self-defense, and it works for them shouldn't you just say ok cool, if you like it do it. I choose to learn from this guy, because I feel that he has what I'm looking for. No big deal.
But your like a bunch of little want a be gang bangers trying to claim your turf and mark your territory. I'm just trying to state a simple fact of martial arts. That no one in any style teaches authentic ( the way it was originally taught by the founder) martial arts!! They teach there interpretation of what it is they have been taught. So again if a guy calls Bujinkan, or Genbukan, or anything else what freaking difference does it make? Really? How much difference does it make. If all I wanted was to learn some outdoor survival skills, and some stealthy tactics, and self-defense and a green beret is teaching something like this and it is effective and works, does it really matter if he calls it ninjutsu. Probably not, cause I'm probably going to get the same basic stuff!!!!Techniques aren't ninjutsu, but the stealth and survival probably are, and are probably more effective than authentic ninjutsu, cause it's taught by our countries finest! It doesn't matter, simply put it doesn't matter.
If I get what I'm looking for and searching for, why does anybody out there give a ****! If I'm happy and other people are happy why do want to make other people miserable like yourselves. That's all you do. Make people miserable, because they were happy with what they were learning, and now, you have destroyed it. Does that make you feel good? Maybe they're instructor, really did go through the Bujinkan and learn hatsumi's style, and then decided they liked the idea of toshindo, and they taught, authentic ninjutsu under a quest center flag. 
Now that person will leave there school, because you had a big mouth, had to ruin someones reputation. More importantly you had to ruin a students view of there instructor.



I see that everyone else can post links so here is one you can watch so you can see toshindo Blackbelt for yourselves. Ok?

Again after you watch it, does it matter what it is that he's learned seems like it probably works for him.


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## Kreth (Jul 27, 2008)

GBlues said:


> Hatsumi doesn't teach authentic 5,000 year old ninjutsu, he teaches his interpretation of the ninjutsu he was taught, and now calls it bujinkan.


And this comment is based on your vast experience as a TSD white belt? :idunno:


> I choose to learn from this guy, because I feel that he has what I'm looking for. No big deal.


Fantastic. You just happen to be the second TSD beginner in as many weeks to join this forum and post about how the Bujinkan sucks and TSD is the epitome of martial arts training.


> But your like a bunch of little want a be gang bangers trying to claim your turf and mark your territory.


I suggest you check the forum rules. Personal attacks are a no-no...


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## Cryozombie (Jul 27, 2008)

Kreth said:


> And this comment is based on your vast experience as a TSD white belt? :idunno:


 
Hey now, what gives you the right to say you know more, just because the blackness of your belt was earned thru many many years of study both here and in Japan.  

:lfao:


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## stephen (Jul 27, 2008)

1. I have a feeling the last post before yours on this thread has been around longer than you've been training. 

2. White space is your friend on forums. Although I appreciate you at least putting some in between the words. Take the next step.

3.



GBlues said:


> As far as ukemi goes, no it's not the first skill that you learn, but it is given probably more time than some of the other things on the videos. It is still very much alive in toshindo, it's just that Anshu-Hayes, feels that you should be able to protect yourself and so should learn something useful to you outside of the school first.
> Yeah, I'm walking down the road and a guy punches me in the face, I can roll, but on the way up what do I do now? Get kicked in the mouth, that's what.



Ukemi is more than Zenpo Kaiten: If you're getting punched in the face more than you're slipping on some ice or almost twisting an ankle on a curb you need to find new places to hang out.


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## GBlues (Jul 27, 2008)

"Fantastic. You just happen to be the second TSD beginner in as many weeks to join this forum and post about how the Bujinkan sucks and TSD is the epitome of martial arts training."


WHAT!!!?????? I have never said that Bujinkan sucks! 



"I suggest you check the forum rules. Personal attacks are a no-no"

I ain't sending out a personal attack on anyone. I'm just calling it like I see it. Sorry if you can't handle the truth. All I have done is make a very valid point. No one seems to get. I haven't had an answer to not one of the questions that I've asked so far. Instead your attacking me, that's fine, I don't care, and it doesn't offend me. People express there feelings and opinions in a muriad of ways. I guess this isn't the place that I thought it was. I see several people on this particular subject, and generally the same ones, and usually attacking anyone who is not Bujinkan. Spouting off how great there crap don't stink. I'm a beginner, in the art of toshindo, I make no bones about it. I'm not trying to hide it. Don't need too. I just think that you guys make too much of a big deal about what is in a name?

"And this comment is based on your vast experience as a TSD white belt? :idunno:"


No, this comment was based on what I have learned and observed over the course of my lifetime. Think about it like this. You learn a technique from your instructor, it's a good one, but for your body type, size weight, and attributes, it doesn't work the way you've been taught. So it get's changed just ever so slightly. Now your ninjutsu technique is different technically making it no longer ninjutsu. It's more your way of doing that particular ninjutsu technique. Now when you teach it, you aren't going to teach the way that doesn't work for you, you will teach the way you have practiced it, and learned it. You'll teach it your way. Now imagine that same thing happening over thousands of years, through various students and instructors. You think your learning it the way it was taught 5,000 years ago? Look at even just Jeet Kune Do....how many instructors are there out there that are teaching it the way Bruce Lee taught it. My money would bet on not one. Because the arts change. Every generation has to make adaptations to it. It's that simple. I guarantee there are techniques that you do, that are not the same as your instructors. Because your body is different, than his, what works for him, may not always work for you. Are you starting to see the point I was trying to make. No one teaches exactly, verbatim what they have been taught. It's not human. Humans are adaptive and ever changing and so are the things that we learn and teach, no matter what it is.

And to haul off and tell every new student that comes on this website that they are learning crap, is wrong, because until you have studied it, or observed enough you don't know that to be sure. THe same with me. I have seen videos of Hatsumi, and he is very skilled. The bujinka has some very skilled practioners to be sure. But in my experience as I have stated earlier the one school that I went to, was deeply lacking. To be honest, I have nothing but respect for most of the individuals that are training in any type of ninjutsu. Especially for the guys in the Bujinkan, but, what I saw and for the amount of money to what you get, in the area that I live, I prefer Toshindo. I have said nothing on this post that is not the truth. It has been readily apparent that you are more into bashing than understanding. I have answered some of your questions please do me the honor of reading my posts more thoroughly and answer some of mine. I would deeply appreciate that.


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## Kreth (Jul 27, 2008)

GBlues said:


> I have answered some of your questions please do me the honor of reading my posts more thoroughly and answer some of mine. I would deeply appreciate that.


Here, let me paraphrase your very first post on this forum, and let's see if maybe that's why you're not getting answers:


			
				GBlues said:
			
		

> The Bujinkan instructor in my area sucks, his students suck, and he charges too much money. You guys are a bunch of meanie-heads. Toshindo is cheap, video training rocks, and ukemi doesn't work. Toshindo kids are better than most adults, and you guys are still a bunch of meanie-heads.
> I'm sorry if you get offended, but I'm right.


:idunno:
Oh, and *no one* is teaching things as they were 5,000 years ago, simply because no system in Japan dates back that far...


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## Cryozombie (Jul 27, 2008)

Ha, I missed the Ukemi doesn't work thing.  I must be dead, since it doesn't work... it clearly didn't save my life when I was thrown headfirst from my motorcycle into oncoming traffic last summer...


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## jks9199 (Jul 27, 2008)

Now, I didn't take the afternoon to re-read this rather old thread, but I don't recall anyone saying Toshindo sucks.  Or that Stephen Hayes sucks.  Generally speaking, style bashing like that isn't well accepted herebouts at MT.

Toshindo appears to be a perfectly valid interpretation of the Bujinkan arts that were taught to Hayes.  He's chosen to do his own thing with them, which has apparently moved far enough that Hatsumi has decided he's no longer part of the Bujinkan.  That's between the two of them, really...  Especially since I've never seen anything on his websites or heard of him claiming to teach the same stuff as the Bujinkan.

But, GBlues, you're getting irate and going in weird directions over anyone having the temerity to question your endorsement of Toshindo and Hayes.  I don't get that part of this...  Are you so concerned that neither will stand scrutiny that you have to challenge and deflect any examination of them?


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## theletch1 (Jul 27, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> Ha, I missed the Ukemi doesn't work thing.  I must be dead, since it doesn't work... it clearly didn't save my life when I was thrown headfirst from my motorcycle into oncoming traffic last summer...


I remember seeing photos of your face shield.  Gnarly crash, man.  Ukemi has saved my butt and that of my kids on several ocassions just from trips and slips and falls.  It works if you give it the attention that it deserves... and that is enough attention to make it second nature.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 27, 2008)

Falling skills are essential skills not just in the martial sciences but for improving your chances when you are simply out and about.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 27, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> I remember seeing photos of your face shield.  Gnarly crash, man.  Ukemi has saved my butt and that of my kids on several ocassions just from trips and slips and falls.  It works if you give it the attention that it deserves... and that is enough attention to make it second nature.



No that wasnt me... that was another member.  I didnt have ANY protective gear on, just long pants and a Tshirt, and I hit the pavement rolling.


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## SKB (Aug 1, 2008)

Man now I remember why I stopped comimng on here for awhile........... must not be very fun to go through life being so negative on other people all the time. Note I did not say any names would not want people to pull out the rule book!!!!!!! 

Dude if you are finding what you in To-Shin Do then good for you! Why the rest of you come on here I have no idea......STILL!!!!!!!!


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## Cryozombie (Aug 1, 2008)

SKB said:


> Dude if you are finding what you in To-Shin Do then good for you! Why the rest of you come on here I have no idea......STILL!!!!!!!!



It's for your smiling face, SKB!


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## SKB (Aug 1, 2008)

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

:ultracool


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## theletch1 (Aug 1, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> No that wasnt me... that was another member.  I didnt have ANY protective gear on, just long pants and a Tshirt, and I hit the pavement rolling.


Grrr, then who the HELL was it?  I gotta go search old threads now or it'll drive me crazy.


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## bydand (Aug 1, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> Grrr, then who the HELL was it?  I gotta go search old threads now or it'll drive me crazy.




If memory serves me right it was Stone Dragone.  Could be hallucinating though .


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## stone_dragone (Aug 1, 2008)

bydand said:


> If memory serves me right it was Stone Dragone.  Could be hallucinating though .



Although I, too, was in an accident that ukemi (and a lot of luck) saved my life, I have no pics to post of the event...and since I kept my head tucked, my helmet was in good shape too!

Although one wouldn't know from my face, it actually didn't get messed up from the wreck!

So the search continues...


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## GBlues (Jan 9, 2009)

Kreth said:


> Here, let me paraphrase your very first post on this forum, and let's see if maybe that's why you're not getting answers:
> 
> :idunno:
> Oh, and *no one* is teaching things as they were 5,000 years ago, simply because no system in Japan dates back that far...


 
No abla yapanese......DUDE :erg:


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## brycemaster (Jan 16, 2009)

Thought I'd just chip in as someone with nearly 5 years training in TSD, I have to say that Ukemi is definately taught, and taught damn well at that, as I was in an accident during a party when everyone went go-karting. I was smashed into sideways by some guy who thought he was driving an F1 car, and sent me out of the kart (which had no seatbelt!) towards a wall at 40 mph. 

In the second or so I had, I rolled forward with my momentum and hit the wall with my shoulder instead of my head, breaking my collarbone. However, I much prefer that outcome to my head hitting a wall at 40MPH.

Plus I got back into my kart and carried on for another 15 or so minutes before the adrenaline wore off and I realised it really hurt turning the wheel left!  

Long story short, not only has TSD saved me in the many fights I've somehow been involved in, but it saved me from some serious head injuries too!


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## ToShinDoKa (Jan 19, 2009)

I now _unofficially _declare the name of this thread...UKEMI.  :ultracool

But yeah, so let me see if I can talk about the thread topic...hmmm:

I personally enjoy SKHQuest.com's access to the Densho.  They're updated pretty regularly, and I thoroughly enjoy An-Shu Hayes' observations on things pertaining to the arts, the past, and life in general.  You guys should check it our sometime. 

-Scott


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## Raynac (Mar 4, 2009)

hmmmmm Im pretty sure when I was white belts weren't allowed to be thrown untill we knew how to break fall and I was taught rolls very early in my white belt days.

anyways stephen hayze the main topic... well I guess I hope to meet the man someday. He seems like a good guy and Im sure I could learn alot from him. alot it would be cool to just sit down and talk with him about his views on ninjutsu and To-Shin Do. 

by the way when he and his wife dies who are the grandmasters. or has anyone thought about that yet?


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## brycemaster (Mar 5, 2009)

Raynac said:


> hmmmmm Im pretty sure when I was white belts weren't allowed to be thrown untill we knew how to break fall and I was taught rolls very early in my white belt days.
> 
> anyways stephen hayze the main topic... well I guess I hope to meet the man someday. He seems like a good guy and Im sure I could learn alot from him. alot it would be cool to just sit down and talk with him about his views on ninjutsu and To-Shin Do.
> 
> by the way when he and his wife dies who are the grandmasters. or has anyone thought about that yet?



I've met Mr Hayes and he's a nice guy and intresting to talk to. But I didn't talk too much to him about training as we had been training in the UK seminar for 3 days in a row, and were having a well-deserved break at the pub! 

As for "who are the grandmasters" (the proper tearm being an-shu, as Mr Hayes always says Hatsumi is the only grandmaster) and I would say this is pretty obvious as it will be the highest ranking members below Mr and Mrs Hayes. i.e. Mr Poliquin, Russo, Norris and Varnum as they are the other hombu shihan.


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## Raynac (Mar 5, 2009)

brycemaster said:


> I've met Mr Hayes and he's a nice guy and intresting to talk to. But I didn't talk too much to him about training as we had been training in the UK seminar for 3 days in a row, and were having a well-deserved break at the pub!
> 
> As for "who are the grandmasters" (the proper tearm being an-shu, as Mr Hayes always says Hatsumi is the only grandmaster) and I would say this is pretty obvious as it will be the highest ranking members below Mr and Mrs Hayes. i.e. Mr Poliquin, Russo, Norris and Varnum as they are the other hombu shihan.


Ohhh ok. I know Mr. Poliquin and Mr Varnum (feels weird not calling them John and Bret.) Thats cool thinking that they may be the next an-shu. That being said I hope stephen hayze lives many more long and healthy years.


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## newbee (Mar 28, 2009)

If we are talking about ukemi. I have to ask the question does ukemi have to do with just rolls and breakfalls? Or can it be used in a verticle position also?


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## Tez3 (Mar 28, 2009)

Is this the vampire thread then? The OP is 8 years old lol! this is it's third resurrection.


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## jks9199 (Mar 28, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Is this the vampire thread then? The OP is 8 years old lol! this is it's third resurrection.


Well, we are coming up on Easter...  A notoriously hard time of year to keep things dead and buried.


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## Raynac (Mar 29, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Is this the vampire thread then? The OP is 8 years old lol! this is it's third resurrection.


 
it is indeed a vampire thread, it just got a taste of some newblood that has joined the sight so now its alive again


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 29, 2009)

newbee said:


> If we are talking about ukemi. I have to ask the question does ukemi have to do with just rolls and breakfalls? Or can it be used in a verticle position also?


 
ukemi refers to recieving. So while some of it deals with how to take a fall or throw it could also refer to the proper way to avoid or deflect certain blows I suppose.


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## Carol (Mar 29, 2009)

The word ukemi (in Japanese) refers to being defensive or passive.  

In a martial arts context though it only refers to the context of breakfalls and rolls (that I know of).

There are other aspects to defense that don't involve falling, such as exhaling when taking a shot to the midsection or parrying away a punch.  I have yet to see anyone working on parrying drills or a breathing exercise and saying they were working on their ukemi.


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## elder999 (Mar 29, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> The word ukemi (in Japanese) refers to being defensive or passive.
> 
> In a martial arts context though it only refers to the context of breakfalls and rolls (that I know of).
> 
> There are other aspects to defense that don't involve falling, such as exhaling when taking a shot to the midsection or parrying away a punch. I have yet to see anyone working on parrying drills or a breathing exercise and saying they were working on their ukemi.


 

The word "uke" which is often used as "block," "parry", and any number of other things, really implies _to receive_. Taken in this context, blocks become a whole lot more, as do breakfalls, as do taking a shot to the midsection or parrying a punch......_ukemi_], though, really means "receiving a fall," and that's about all......


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 1, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> Ha, I missed the Ukemi doesn't work thing.  I must be dead, since it doesn't work... it clearly didn't save my life when I was thrown headfirst from my motorcycle into oncoming traffic last summer...



Maybe we can start a 'Club of the Undead'. Because I clearly did not survive being launched headfirst onto the traffic lane when a car hit my bicycle.


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