# Bringing back old school karate



## Dark (Jun 9, 2006)

I was reading over the where is the real karate thread and I had a wounderful idea. Who is for bringing back old school, combat focused karate? And how would you go about the return to old school karate?


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## pstarr (Jun 9, 2006)

I am ALL FOR BRINGING BACK TRADITIONAL KARATE as opposed to the gymnastic, hyena-sqealing, electric-purple tie-dyed uniform type of ...well, I won't do it the honor of calling it karate because it isn't.

     For that matter, I would include kung-fu as well.

     This is a question I posed on another thread and I'm anxious to hear everyone's ideas....


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## Dark (Jun 10, 2006)

For me this means stripping karate down to foundamentals once again, like how the orgional Okinawan styles were first developed. Dropping the number of forms way back down for shotokan... Or just starting from scratch.


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## Rook (Jun 10, 2006)

I'm not sure how it would be done though... 

Any sort of kumite competition based on actual fighting ability is likely to be taken over by MMA-converted people who practice karate/kung fu only in name.  All the flashy katas that attract public attention are going to be provided by XMA people...  What does this leave to have a tournament in?


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## Andrew Green (Jun 10, 2006)

ok, so what is "Old School" karate, and provide references to support.  Oh... problem...  very little apart from oral history exists.

Perhaps the ideas around "old school" karate are largely myth?

My personal belief is that the emphasis was less on fighting and more on health.  I know one master, can't remember which, was quoted as saying that you can tell how good a persons karate was based on how long they lived.

Self-defence is only a part of taking care of yourself, and a small part.  Keeping the body healthy is far more likely to increas your lifespan then any amount of fighting ability.


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## pstarr (Jun 10, 2006)

I would have to respectfully disagree and say that the emphasis on the old, original forms of karate was on developing fighting skill.  

But that isn't the point of the thread.  The question is, what can we do to promote traditional martial arts and generate public interest in them?


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## green meanie (Jun 10, 2006)

Rook said:
			
		

> I'm not sure how it would be done though...
> 
> Any sort of kumite competition based on actual fighting ability is likely to be taken over by MMA-converted people who practice karate/kung fu only in name. All the flashy katas that attract public attention are going to be provided by XMA people... What does this leave to have a tournament in?


 
I'd think a good place to start, when trying to get back to 'old school' karate, would be to not worry about going to tournaments. :asian:


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## Dark (Jun 10, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> ok, so what is "Old School" karate, and provide references to support. Oh... problem... very little apart from oral history exists.


 
Give me a few day 4 or 5 to find my old JKA instructors handbook  I got reserve duty this weekend.



			
				Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Perhaps the ideas around "old school" karate are largely myth?


 
Problem is Karate is derived from kung-fu, and both have changed dramatically in the last 50 years...


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## Dark (Jun 10, 2006)

In going to old school to we take the Okinawan or Japanese path?


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 10, 2006)

I have done just that with my system.  I teach traditional martial arts even though it is not a system like Shorin Ryu it is similar.  The kata cirriculum is Okinawan based got away from the Shotokan kata and back to my roots in kata.  I teach bunkai and require it on rank testing.  White gis are all that I allow in the dojo accept for kobudo practice then they may wear a black gi.

I am all for traditional karate, effective karate, real karate.  This gymnastic stuff is way old and ridiculous.


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## Dark (Jun 10, 2006)

I was considering going to the Okinawan and Chinese paths. And focusing heavily on bunkai, may be have 3 or 4 katas.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 10, 2006)

Here is the required kata I teach:
Kihon Kata Sho
Pinan Shodan - Godan
Naihanchi Shodan - Sandan
Passai Sho & Bassai dai (to illustrate some other versions)
empi (never learned seisan only empi)
Hangetsu
Jion
Kusanku Dai and on Occasion Kanku Dai
Working on adding Gojushiho for ranking to godan

Other kata I can teach is fukyugata Shodan and Nidan and Bassai Sho.

Bunkai and Yakosoku Kumite taken from the katas are taught at various levels also plus at advanced levels the students must show their interpetation of each kata also.


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## pstarr (Jun 10, 2006)

But - how do we promote the traditional martial arts?


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 10, 2006)

thats the hard part especially in the USA.  People in this country seem to like a lot of flash and a quick road to success and traditional karate isn't either.


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## stone_dragone (Jun 10, 2006)

While I am entirely in support of re-popularizing old school methods and traditional spirit, a caution must be taken to not advertise an art that you do not teach as well as "creating" a new art and trying to present it as an old koryu.  Repackaging different kata and speaking only in japanese as you hit each other full force does not mean that you teach "old karate."

I prefer a more traditional style of training, but just because its old doesn't make it better.  In the same token, just because a teaching method is new doesn't make it bad or wrong.  The screeching-3 minute-kiai-kata and jump-spinning-triple-lutz axe kick for two points can go...I'm cool with that.  The "I'm-better-than-you-because-I've-got-a-reflective-gi" attitude can disappear, too.  Bring back reliance on kata for training, strong bunkai and oyo, but keep it applicable to today....

... and lets lose the 15 colors with stripes in between to black belt; thats just irritating.


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## Drac (Jun 10, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> gymnastic,hyena-sqealing,electric-purple tie-dyed uniform


 
LMAO..


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jun 10, 2006)

Though I will admit to Kosutemi being tournament oriented, in defense of it, I am not required by my Sensei to compete.  Our kata are traditional and focus is on learning how to fight AND compete.  

While not 'old skool' in the sense of a purely traditional combat art, I feel it's much closer than the aforementioned hyena-based skillz.


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## Robert Lee (Jun 10, 2006)

Old first you would have to set down a conditioning program. That hardens the body.  The hard blocks were also striking blocks. The hands were conditioned to strike and was hardened off to allow for the hands to do more damage. The feet the shins all were conditioned so they could do damage with out being Hurt as easy. This takes dedication of certion students that will train this way. To look at Karate first you see it was for the unarmed defence needed for use aginst who. The japanese that would occupy Okinawa To de. Nah ha te, shori te, All had roots to China But were adapted to Okinawa For its peoples need. What worked well for China did not work as well there. Same as it left went to Japan where they made changes that better met there needs. More or less old Karate was training the body by conditioning it to be a unarmed weapon. Then the certion Katas that were used to train the delivery tools Just take your art you do now research it back and you will see the added Kata. Use them or delete them. Train it where more body hardening is used thats skin and bone conditioning But remember Today you find just a small hand ful of people that want to train like that


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## Cirdan (Jun 10, 2006)

Yes, most people wouldn`t want to strike their fingers full force into bags of rocks today, and I agree with them. The systematic desruction of nerves in your hands and feet turn them into baseball bats, ending their ability to function as thigh tech weapons. Also I want to be able to wipe my own behind in old age thank you very much.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 10, 2006)

> Old first you would have to set down a conditioning program. That hardens the body. The hard blocks were also striking blocks. The hands were conditioned to strike and was hardened off to allow for the hands to do more damage. The feet the shins all were conditioned so they could do damage with out being Hurt as easy


 
I could not agree more or say it any better.  Add to thay students where required to study for years befor being promoted an no one made it in a year or two but many years.  If you where in the arts for excersise you got it harder than most people would ever want to excersise and you didn't need to look pretty you just had to be hard as nails an not quite when the going got tuff


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## Robert Lee (Jun 11, 2006)

I agree there to On the student aspect. It was like going through a boot camp program But you never graduate boot camp. Just train and train both for condition and skills over and over Black belt well it was not about belt color it was about learning. And there have been several methods of old kata training lost because of the softer aspects coming into play. What is said about the old teachers/ masters. They could do many things that people today can not. The old one punch kill its really unheard of today. Because you have to condition for that kind of power for the fist and arm to be a battering ram tool same with the kicks Pain meant gain If you have trained for a while you remember the Block training hard punches hard blocks over and over the bruises would form on both peoples armes down to the bone Be really sore and the next day you did it agin after awhile You did not feel pain any more Your bones and tissue was getting conditioned. Or the full power kicks thrown at you Saat in sanchin stance betwwen your legs. If you were not in a strong stance the kick would penatrate the stance hit you directly in the groin. They would start out softer at first but as time went by They became full power not pulled at all. And that has been taught during this time frame I had to do that in the 70s. Now 75 years ago It was much more entence. Kind of gladiator school training train hard each day every day.   Today the ring fighters mostly are the ones that know to fight you have to train for condition and enderance even though they have rules they have to be in better shape then most M/A practitioners train


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## Dark (Jun 11, 2006)

The problem with traditional karate is the lack of tradition. In Okinawa there was little recorded technique or style except for the last hundred or so years. How do you get back to function but without the excess form.


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## Robert Lee (Jun 11, 2006)

You would probably have to research you given stry or Ryu befor it had its newer given name. The old Kata koryu were the earlyer Katas in several Ryus. Then more added by the person that the Ryu was handed down to Like if I am still right Go ju ryu   before Miyagi made his additions had 6 koryu katas And sanchin  and tensho katas But sanchin was an open hand kata changed to closed fist gekisia di iche, di ni, and di san, gekiha di iche, di ni, and kakuha di iche, and di ni were added kata. Then Toguchi added tanduku katas di iche, di ni, and di san But it dates back to higashiana If i spelled that write. Where he was said to have studied Nahate. And trained for 30 years in china in shorinji temple boxing  Then came back to Okinawa tried teaching what he had learned in China but it did not fit well to the need of his students So he adpated the changes mixing both arts And Miyagi Was a devoted student There is a verbal history and some writing  About the arts. Back then they had no real name except To de. China hand Ut was when Japan want to have the arts spread to there lands that Arts were given there modern name And the name Kara te. I have a unpublished book by Toguchi Its in a pamplet form He was going to have it published years ago but chose not It was handed down to Black belt students Has some useful info in it I have not read trhough it in years  I beleive I got it back in about !980. It had been around for years  copied and handed down. So there is more info out there I no longer train in Go ju I still use some of what I learned But went on to other arts Mainly stay with JKD but keep my eye open. Just train hard if you do not want ther forms/kata break them down Find there tools that best meet your needs They were put into Kata to hide them more or less so one could train solo without attracting attention to what they were doing If asked it was some kind of dance movement Japan ruled  over Okinawa you were allowed No weapons Thats why we have the  converted farm tool weapons today. So modern weapons would be the tire tool the wrench the gun ect. Same aspect and there legal to carry most often in your car.


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## green meanie (Jun 11, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> The problem with traditional karate is the lack of tradition. In Okinawa there was little recorded technique or style except for the last hundred or so years. How do you get back to function but without the excess form.


 
I apologize if I'm misunderstanding you here but it sounds like you would prefer to drop the kata and just 'bang' -for lack of a better way to put it. Now that is a style of training that I can certainly relate to but is that karate? Just asking 'cause I don't know and I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this. :asian:


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## Dark (Jun 11, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> I apologize if I'm misunderstanding you here but it sounds like you would prefer to drop the kata and just 'bang' -for lack of a better way to put it. Now that is a style of training that I can certainly relate to but is that karate? Just asking 'cause I don't know and I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this. :asian:


 
I'm for dropping the excess kata, I understand having one or three, but 30 come on that excessive. To me kata is "tae-bo" with a few lessons mixed in, you don't need 26 forms to teach those lessons. Just like I'm against excessive sparring, but thats a different subject. If you remember there were inter systems in China that had only one form.

If the root is karate then yes it would be karate, it's not the forms that make karate it's the spirit. The Bunkai, actual fighting techniques are so much more important on the subject of forms.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 12, 2006)

Personally I feel kata is the heart of karate.


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## Dark (Jun 12, 2006)

Brandon Fisher said:
			
		

> Personally I feel kata is the heart of karate.


 
I truly can't see that, compare the origional training methods of shotokan to the present USKA or JKA standards. O'Sensei Funakoshi said "Fifteen kata is enough exercise for a life time." And that was after several years and near the completion of his vision. The present 30+ kata between 3 organzations of Shotokan is inane and desturbing, so is the loss of a great many other aspects like grappling, trapping and such from the system.

Funakoshi even used a form of wieght lifting, but you don't see many Shotokan practicers who will pick up a set of dumbbells because it's not traditional.


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## Dark (Jun 12, 2006)

Here is an example of old school shotokan training.

http://www.koketsudojo.com/training.htm


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 12, 2006)

15 kata is enough I agree completely with Funakoshi Sensei's comments on that.  Even in the Shorinkan in Okinawa there are only 15 kata not including some Kihon Kata.

1. Naihanchi Shodan
2. Naihanchi Nidan
3. Naihanchi Sandan
4. Pinan Shodan
5. Pinan Nidan
6. Pinan Sandan
7. Pinan Yondan
8. Pinan Godan
9. Passai Sho
10. Passai Dai
11. Kusanku Sho
12. Chinto
13. Kusanku Dai
14. Gojushiho
15. Gorin​


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## Robert Lee (Jun 12, 2006)

The old kata found in most Karate arts are the first kata. The others were added to easup training And make karate a exersise also. And was taught in public schools. These are the modern kata. That can be dropped or added to a style. The old kata should stay and not be changed. Now with that most style just doing the old kata would have 5 to 8 kata at the most. Then the bunki and prearranged drill plus free style jiyu kumite.  The old kata was handed down From the original masters of the different arts. these kata to were trained by the different sects of karate found in Okinawa. Which was the 3 orginal Te So dropping these newer kata would give back to the old Karate having less formand more training on the tools. I read over Toguchis writing last night first time in years. He said the old kata Koryu was the root of what Karate is They made up the core of how karate developed. I can agree there. He also said Miyagi added 2 kata Then he added 7 more and that styles can add more kata to make Karate a sport. teach it as a exersise. And gear it for olmypic sports. Plus the new kata were for compition also. So modern kata was not geared really to enhance your Karate it was geared to make the learning easyer and to spread karate easyer and use Karate for more then a Martial art He also said those that do not spend the time doing the old kata will never bloom in karate. And even those tha do the old kata but never understand the end point of that kata training will never bloom in there karate.. The end point is not in the form of kata but the tools found within that kata each seperate each useful. Ha also said that the people who do kata but a short time and say you can not fight useing kata will never Karate. It is a well known fact you can not fight useing Kata But what has been put into Kata when seperated and understood you can use that. You must train Kata and train what kata has in a seperate way. He said when he learned from miyagi the way they sparred to keep it safe You would spar a person just under your rank That person would co,me at you full power with punches kicks ect, You could only block or evade when an opening was there you could reach out with a plam to touch the intended target. That would work.As the other person not holding back and you had limited defence aginst there full power on slaught. And could onlt basicly touch back showing you could defend and attack. But keep that person safe. Migt try that and see that it takes some skills not being hit just defending with blocks and evasive manuvers then only touch while the other person is trying to hit you. Now like I have said I nolonger do kata or karate in general. But Karate can work and its up to the person to train how they see fit.


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## Dark (Jun 12, 2006)

Thats actually interesting, I was thinking of incorperating some Chinese boxing forms, instead of the Japanese forms. They seem more geared to actual fighting, I was amazed to learn a few years back that most kung-fu systems began with only one or two forms.

What you said it pretty interesting as well, do you know the names of those origional kata. Been a while for me.


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## Rook (Jun 12, 2006)

Well, the number of kata has become more than most martial artists today will be even remotely proficient at.  The "old school" martial artists had a few and they worked them intensely... today, we work many kata without becoming proficient in any of them.


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## Robert Lee (Jun 12, 2006)

Siafa kata. sauchin kata, saisan kata,  saisochin kata, sansaru kata suparenpi kata. kurunfa kata,  And sanchin kata A walking zen kata breathing kata is what it is teaches balanced breathing along with proper strikeing and blocking. Now these kata come from china And have been shared with the 3 original styles Of karate Which was just unique to which original ryu Im not 100 percent sure But they are said to be the root to all Karate. They came from the shorin temple Which is tye shaolin temple And they spread to okinawa. They were kempo based from Buda Harma As thats is what he first taught the shaolin priests. Shorin temple boxing.


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## Dark (Jun 12, 2006)

Rook said:
			
		

> Well, the number of kata has become more than most martial artists today will be even remotely proficient at. The "old school" martial artists had a few and they worked them intensely... today, we work many kata without becoming proficient in any of them.


 
And thats why I hate modern karate, I feel kinda strange when I walk into a dojo and people act like I'm some "master" because I know how to turn blocks into traps and locks and dislocations. I'm considering the idea of tossing out the belt system as well...


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## Robert Lee (Jun 12, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> And thats why I hate modern karate, I feel kinda strange when I walk into a dojo and people act like I'm some "master" because I know how to turn blocks into traps and locks and dislocations. I'm considering the idea of tossing out the belt system as well...


 Have you looked into JKD it offers a decent method. And has no belts just levels. But thats choice on what some one wants to do.


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## Dark (Jun 12, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> Have you looked into JKD it offers a decent method. And has no belts just levels. But thats choice on what some one wants to do.


 
It's not that I don't respect other arts, I studied like 30 but hold rank in any but six, I just would like to see karate de-evolve back into a practical martial art. Not a gymnastic-kung-fu-theater type of thing...


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## pstarr (Jun 12, 2006)

I'd LOVE to see that, too (include kung-fu as well).

But.

The bag is out of the cat and there's no putting it back now.

But those who support TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTS can start doing things to promote traditional arts and try to build up our numbers again...that's something we could all discuss-

Ideas?


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## Dark (Jun 13, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> I'd LOVE to see that, too (include kung-fu as well).
> 
> But.
> 
> ...


 
The best I can come up with is strip karate down to the core aspects, incorperate a few forgotten concepts and bunkai and start teaching. One of the first two to go has to be (a) the belt system, go back to the old here is a white belt don't wash it and when it becomes black your expert when it becomes white again your a master stuff and (b) no large governing bodies, no new organizations. Lets just be a bunch of martial artist who train hard and compare knowledge in the spirit of fellowship and growth. Sound good?


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## Andrew Green (Jun 13, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> (a) the belt system, go back to the old here is a white belt don't wash it and when it becomes black your expert when it becomes white again your a master stuff and



Myth, plain and simple.  No one wore dirty belts, that would be stinky, unhygenic, and very deserving of a but kicking to whatever person showed up to Prof. Kano's class with a dirty belt.


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## Dark (Jun 13, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Myth, plain and simple. No one wore dirty belts, that would be stinky, unhygenic, and very deserving of a but kicking to whatever person showed up to Prof. Kano's class with a dirty belt.


 
I've seen a few dojos in Okinawa (the RyuKyu Islands to the Japanese) use that concept a few years back. They trained outside rain or shine so thier gis were generally dirty anyway. I always thought it was an Okinawan concept for making fun of the Japanese belt system or something. But I haven't found a concrete source for yay or nay, it's one of the MA big foots; most say it doesn't exist and allot swore it does.


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## Martial Tucker (Jun 13, 2006)

Rook said:
			
		

> Well, the number of kata has become more than most martial artists today will be even remotely proficient at.  The "old school" martial artists had a few and they worked them intensely... today, we work many kata without becoming proficient in any of them.



I think this is symptomatic of the biggest problem in bringing back "old school"
karate: finding enough "old school"-minded students to make it worth the teacher's time and expense.

To me, old school karate means a LOT of hard work, sweat, and blood, and
a mindset of total dedication to learning the BASIC skills completely and diligently practicing them daily. Forever. It's the realization that you DON'T
have to be presented with new material each class, and that there is ALWAYS more to learn within the material that you have already seen.
You just have to be dedicated to your art enough to be willing to practice the same stuff over and over, and look within. 

As for the kata, I totally agree. You don't need a dozen belts between white to black, with one or two new kata/forms per belt. Learn a handful of them, and practice them daily. Always look within them for a deeper meaning. 

Summarizing, I think in today's "instant gratification", minimal attention-span
society, it's hard enough finding a decent sized group of people willing to put down the TV remote for awhile and break a sweat. Amongst those, 
to find a select few willing to bleed a bit and actually practice the same techniques/skills more than a few times before assuming they've "mastered it"


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## Robert Lee (Jun 13, 2006)

You need to rember the old Gi of long ago was also the clothes you wore And the belt used to be tied on the side not the front. It helped hold the gi closed. Then that type of clothing also became traditional to Karate. The idea of the belt color was you started out white belt And as time went on the color changed from the white to green to brown then black because of the sweat and dirt that colored the belt. So in a way the concept was the color grade. A step program. Befor you trained for years when the instructor chose he gave you a black belt to show that now you did understand your Karate. But remember often a student would stay with a instructor much of there lifetime training in that Ryu. And in that time there was just a few instructors That were held in a higher level as true Men of Karate knowledge. And even challenge matches would come from time to time So others could hope to defeat a given instructor To show there Karate was now better .Perhaps so others would follow there instruction. Or show they had evolved. Karate was not a large bunch on chain schools or such small groups would form and be given instruction. But times hanged those that wanted Karate to threive changed the training added Kata and taught youth at public schools and such So the days of Karate would not basicly die off. This proves that modern methods The gun for one removed the days of the hard training. But yes to go back remove the modern Kata Give root back to the old training. It would not be so hard. To research your given Ryu of Karate. Find the Kata that was taught In and about befor the 1900 time Or up to about 1920 Then go to that way of instruction. Also add the condition training. This would leave the room for the more open training of different tools That were later put into the Newer kata form  rather then being trained seperate. THEN you find to less people are willing to train this way. Your class size will be smaller. But if youare not after money you will not mind. Small classes hard training gives results. Basicly Just training much harder improves you


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## marlon (Jun 13, 2006)

You said:



			
				Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> I think this is symptomatic of the biggest problem in bringing back "old school"
> karate: finding enough "old school"-minded students to make it worth the teacher's time and expense.
> 
> To me, old school karate means a LOT of hard work, sweat, and blood, and
> ...


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## Dark (Jun 13, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> THEN you find to less people are willing to train this way. Your class size will be smaller. But if youare not after money you will not mind. Small classes hard training gives results. Basicly Just training much harder improves you


 
Thats exactly what we need, there are plenty of people who have a taste for hard work and sacrofice. It's just there are too many "weak minded" martial artist and they have chased all the desirable people to the world of MMA and contact fighting.

Karate needs to get some of those people back or it is already dead...


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## Martial Tucker (Jun 13, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> Thats exactly what we need, there are plenty of people who have a taste for hard work and sacrofice. It's just there are too many "weak minded" martial artist and they have chased all the desirable people to the world of MMA and contact fighting.
> 
> Karate needs to get some of those people back or it is already dead...


Dark,

I've agreed completely with virtually every post you've made on this thread.

Until now. 

IMO, the people that have gravitated to the MMA area are not to be assumed to be ideal candidates for traditional karate training just because of their work ethic or toughness. From what I've seen, and part of this may be blamed on the marketing strategy for the MMA genre, people who lean in that direction seem to be more fixated on "who's the baddest bad-***", which IMO, is a far cry from the goals of traditional karate training, which I've always interpreted to be more about self-improvement, ego containment, and respect for each other and tradition.

You may have noticed I'm a Korean stylist posting in a karate thread.
If anything, TKD has deteriorated in many cases to "ground zero" for 
bad martial arts training, so as a sweating, blood-shedding traditionalist at heart, I felt like I had something to contribute to this thread.
I continue to be amazed at the proliferation of people with checkbooks bigger than their hearts, willing to write checks and receive belts as quickly and easily as possible in happy ignorance/denial in order to appease their fragile ego's.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 13, 2006)

> I think this is symptomatic of the biggest problem in bringing back "old school"
> karate: finding enough "old school"-minded students to make it worth the teacher's time and expense.


These people are far and few between but once in a while one comes along. As was said above it can be costly trying to keep a school open while looking for that type of student.  Howeve once one walks in and stays awhile for some strange reason others show up, not in groups but one at a time and slowly the core of old style students builds. Trouble is it takes forver to get a decent size class, and you lose all the mordern students and the goes your income to keep the school open

Even I am old enough to remember the days when one group would visit a different school week after week to try their stuff.  Both groups would then pactice like mad trying to think of ways to win the next week ( wining usualy ment you did not get knocked out).  I also remember students who would travel from school to school  to close down those who where not ligit or who could not defend their own school


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## Dark (Jun 13, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> IMO, the people that have gravitated to the MMA area are not to be assumed to be ideal candidates for traditional karate training just because of their work ethic or toughness.


 
You misunderstand me, alittle, there are allot of people who drive to work hard, but there are too few in karate today. It's not their work ethic or toughness I'd like to see return to karate, it's their heart. There are all of "yelping-muts" in MMA, but there where allot of them in karate to especially during the 60s and 70s.

What sperates the sport fighters from the old masters is the same thing that seperates a paintball-soldier from grunt in Iraq, the real world. A paint baller can know all the same stuff as the grunt, but the reality for the grunt has a deeper and less egotistic purpose... See what I mean? And thats not something limited by style, art, MMA or TMA but the individuals own heart and mind.


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## D.Cobb (Jun 13, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> You need to rember the old Gi of long ago was also the clothes you wore And the belt used to be tied on the side not the front. It helped hold the gi closed. Then that type of clothing also became traditional to Karate. The idea of the belt color was you started out white belt And as time went on the color changed from the white to green to brown then black because of the sweat and dirt that colored the belt. So in a way the concept was the color grade. A step program. Befor you trained for years when the instructor chose he gave you a black belt to show that now you did understand your Karate. But remember often a student would stay with a instructor much of there lifetime training in that Ryu. And in that time there was just a few instructors That were held in a higher level as true Men of Karate knowledge. And even challenge matches would come from time to time So others could hope to defeat a given instructor To show there Karate was now better .Perhaps so others would follow there instruction. Or show they had evolved. Karate was not a large bunch on chain schools or such small groups would form and be given instruction. But times hanged those that wanted Karate to threive changed the training added Kata and taught youth at public schools and such So the days of Karate would not basicly die off. This proves that modern methods The gun for one removed the days of the hard training. But yes to go back remove the modern Kata Give root back to the old training. It would not be so hard. To research your given Ryu of Karate. Find the Kata that was taught In and about befor the 1900 time Or up to about 1920 Then go to that way of instruction. Also add the condition training. This would leave the room for the more open training of different tools That were later put into the Newer kata form rather then being trained seperate. THEN you find to less people are willing to train this way. Your class size will be smaller. But if youare not after money you will not mind. Small classes hard training gives results. Basicly Just training much harder improves you


 
You nailed the problem at the end there. These days it's all about the money. And the people who scream the loudest that it isn't are the ones who charge the most. There is a Chinese saying, which I don't remember word for word, but basically it says, *"Don't make your hobby your rice bowl"*
Unfortunately it happens all too often, that the martial artist gives in to the business man. You can see it with these so called masters that are popping up on every street corner and under every rock, that charge hundreds of dollars for seminars and then justify the cost with lines like, *"you don't object to paying $50 to see a doctor, and I've spent as long or longer training than what a doctor does..."*
My reply is yes, but a doctor set out to create a medical business. From the day he started his training, he knew he would get paid for whatever expertise he picked up along the way. If you started learning martial arts with just the dollar signs to focus on, then you were wrong from day one.
What about the guys who say, *"you have to tone down your training in an effort not to lose students"*? 
I believe that, the minute you change anything about the way you trained, just to keep a student happy, then you no longer have the right to represent what you teach as what you are ranked in. In fact, if your style loses it's intrinsic intensity, then you really only qualify to hang a tae-bo sign over your door.

--Dave


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## D.Cobb (Jun 13, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> Thats exactly what we need, there are plenty of people who have a taste for hard work and sacrofice. It's just there are too many "weak minded" martial artist and they have chased all the desirable people to the world of MMA and contact fighting.
> 
> Karate needs to get some of those people back or it is already dead...


 
The guys that go looking to the MMA and full contact fighting in general are those that want to learn how to fight. It's all about *ego*. It's not about *ART*.

--Dave


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## D.Cobb (Jun 13, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> I truly can't see that, compare the origional training methods of shotokan to the present USKA or JKA standards. O'Sensei Funakoshi said "Fifteen kata is enough exercise for a life time." And that was after several years and near the completion of his vision. The present 30+ kata between 3 organzations of Shotokan is inane and desturbing, so is the loss of a great many other aspects like grappling, trapping and such from the system.
> 
> Funakoshi even used a form of wieght lifting, but you don't see many Shotokan practicers who will pick up a set of dumbbells because it's not traditional.


 
Everybody raves about Funakoshi, but, from available accounts, the Okinawan masters weren't too fond of him. Itosu refered to him as "that little janitor". 
The amount of true Martial technique that seems to be missing from Shotokan, inspite of the number of katas, is quite disturbing.

--Dave


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## Martial Tucker (Jun 13, 2006)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> The guys that go looking to the MMA and full contact fighting in general are those that want to learn how to fight. It's all about *ego*. It's not about *ART*.
> 
> --Dave




BINGO!!!   You made my point more effectively, and in fewer words.


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## D.Cobb (Jun 13, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> The best I can come up with is strip karate down to the core aspects, incorperate a few forgotten concepts and bunkai and start teaching. One of the first two to go has to be (a) the belt system, go back to the old here is a white belt don't wash it and when it becomes black your expert when it becomes white again your a master stuff and (b) no large governing bodies, no new organizations. Lets just be a bunch of martial artist who train hard and compare knowledge in the spirit of fellowship and growth. Sound good?


 
Sounds great!
But, here's another idea.....
What about, making the student responsible for his/her own advancement?
I guess I'd better clarify that before I start a flame war

My instructor, Chris, trained in Okinawa under a man called Yagi. Every day Chris would go to the dojo and let himself in and begin to train. If he decided to go a little easy, because he was there on his own, Master Yagi would not show.
Master Yagi would stand under the window, downstairs in the street and listen. If he didn't hear feet stomping and breathing sounds that Goju people do, he would just go home.
If the sounds of effort were right, then he'd come on up. By this time, Chris would be dripping in sweat, and they would do kata. Inch perfect kata.
From then on Chris would have to train what he'd been taught in that class. If Master Yagi turned up and couldn't hear what he wanted to hear, he would just go home.

I have on occassion called Chris, Master. He got embarassed and told me that his teacher, Master Yagi was the master. If I must give him a title, then Senseii would do.... but he'd rather just be Chris.
I have met a lot of great martial artists over the years, but never one that is so in control of how his body moves as Chris. Mastery shows through in movement. Chris is a master!! It is the training that got him there. He does the same with us now.....


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## D.Cobb (Jun 13, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> I think this is symptomatic of the biggest problem in bringing back "old school"
> karate: finding enough "old school"-minded students to make it worth the teacher's time and expense.
> 
> To me, old school karate means a LOT of hard work, sweat, and blood, and a mindset of total dedication to learning the BASIC skills completely and diligently practicing them daily. Forever. It's the realization that you DON'T have to be presented with new material each class, and that there is ALWAYS more to learn within the material that you have already seen.
> ...


 
It is just too damned easy these days to get a black belt!! There are schools all over the place that have these drive thru windows where you can order fries with that belt.

I have just recently started training again after a mourning period of about a year and a half. Just before our loss, I had left the school where I had earned my 2nd Dan, due to the loss of intensity in the school.
My new senseii asked me about my history, as he could tell I had done something else before. When I told him of my previous rank, he asked me if I understood that I would have to go through the same ranking system as everyone else. I answered that that was fine, I didn't want what I hadn't earned. If I wanted the black belt that bad I could just go back to where I'd been, but then I'd have to accept the crap that I'd left behind as well. I don't want that belt that bad.

--Dave


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## D.Cobb (Jun 13, 2006)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> These people are far and few between but once in a while one comes along. As was said above it can be costly trying to keep a school open while looking for that type of student. Howeve once one walks in and stays awhile for some strange reason others show up, not in groups but one at a time and slowly the core of old style students builds. Trouble is it takes forver to get a decent size class, and you lose all the mordern students and the goes your income to keep the school open
> 
> Even I am old enough to remember the days when one group would visit a different school week after week to try their stuff. Both groups would then pactice like mad trying to think of ways to win the next week ( wining usualy ment you did not get knocked out). I also remember students who would travel from school to school to close down those who where not ligit or who could not defend their own school


 
It doesn't have to be costly. Open it in your garage.... Get 5 - 10 regular students then hire a hall once a week. get 10 - 15 regular students and hire the hall twice a week. Don't expect to go full time at it... If you are good at it and there is a need for what you teach then the students will come. It's ok to advertise on the cheap too. Word of mouth and community notice boards are great, and free.

Unfortunately these days the school challenges are few and far between. The ego of the self inflated instructor must be stroked gently, and for his school to lose to another is just unacceptable. They were good fun for the students, and our instructors usually fought each other at the end of the night. So long as egos didn't get in the way, they were a fantastic learning experience.

--Dave


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## Dark (Jun 13, 2006)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> The guys that go looking to the MMA and full contact fighting in general are those that want to learn how to fight. It's all about *ego*. It's not about *ART*.
> 
> --Dave


 
But the art is fighting, and you are your own worst enemy. Allot of MMA guys don't want to go around bullying people, they want to test there metal, so to speak. I grow up with the challenge match attitude, and I have no problem with being challenged. So I understand that mentality, but there are some who want to mis-use that knowledge in any martial art. I just don't plan to judge the few louder children as the guys who just wonna shut and train in something they know will work.


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## evenflow1121 (Jun 13, 2006)

As little care as I have for sports karate type flash, I do not think one would ever be able to get rid of it in its entirety because there is a market for it.  But what you can do is promote all the positive aspects of traditional Karate.


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## Dark (Jun 14, 2006)

evenflow1121 said:
			
		

> As little care as I have for sports karate type flash, I do not think one would ever be able to get rid of it in its entirety because there is a market for it. But what you can do is promote all the positive aspects of traditional Karate.


 
Which version of traditional? We all see tradition in different ways, for me tradition is doing what my "fore-barers" did but maintaining the spirt of their actions. For others it is sticking to a strick format based on those who came before, but most choose to focus on only one aspect of tradition and not the whole.


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## Dark (Jun 14, 2006)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> Everybody raves about Funakoshi, but, from available accounts, the Okinawan masters weren't too fond of him. Itosu refered to him as "that little janitor".
> The amount of true Martial technique that seems to be missing from Shotokan, inspite of the number of katas, is quite disturbing.
> 
> --Dave


 
I use Funakoshi as an example, because he is the most well known. There are several other situations where a great many of other martial arts, not just karate, have lost the martial (war) aspect or the art. But you are right, he was not well liked by the Okinawan masters. Mainly for his taking Karate to Japan...


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## Robert Lee (Jun 14, 2006)

It starts with 1 person If you have studied long enough to have good knowledge of your given art You can drop the modern Kata call it what it was called prior to the modern name. And start it out fresh. Yes less people at first catch on. But is it about the money the peopl NO its about you and others that want to train it more like it was done in the past befor it sold out to modern levels that only help keep it around but do not really give it back to what it had. Hard work hard training and more about the unarmed fighter and person.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 14, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> You need to rember the old Gi of long ago was also the clothes you wore And the belt used to be tied on the side not the front.



The do-gi, Kano's creation, was not.

It was designed specifically for training as I understand it, created white because dye's where expensive.  Everyone wearing the same gi was a way to remove "class" from training, no fancy clothes vs peasant clothes.  

Now it may resemble clothes worn at the time, which makes sense.  But, the do-gi was created specifically for Judo, then adapted to karate.

Kano eventually started having his yudansha where black belts to distinguish them, not because there belts got dirty.


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## Rook (Jun 14, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> The do-gi, Kano's creation, was not.
> 
> It was designed specifically for training as I understand it, created white because dye's where expensive. Everyone wearing the same gi was a way to remove "class" from training, no fancy clothes vs peasant clothes.
> 
> ...


 
Well, kimonos were often worn during martial arts training prior to the modern era.  During more intense periods of training, the participants would often strip down to their undergarments.  Judo, with it emphasis on competitive practice, meant that few wore their kimonos because of the heat.  The fact that it was easier to grip a kimono than undergarments meant that it was a futher disadvantage.  Kano eventually decided that training in underwear was A) not promoting the image he wanted as a gentleman's art B) not standardized and C) resulting in frequently damaged clothes.  He created a standardized stronger version of traditional undergarments - the Gi.  

I have heard the "class warfare" theory debunked many times.  Kano made a point of trying to recruit the social elite and did not take steps to make the poor feel more comfortable in his training hall - it's hardly the reason for the gi.  There are more extensive discussions of this elsewhere.  

Kano's BBs were used to distinguish those who were qualified to correct technique from those who had not yet proven such a capability to him - most his BBs were from JJJ schools rather than promoted within the Judo framework.  

Colored belts came into being in France - it a matter of some debate as to who origionally came up with the idea, but they ranked judo students competitive prowess and later other things.  From there it spread back to Japan and was eventually standardized.  

The Karate gi comes from the Judo gi because Funakoshi's classes had many Judoka, who wore their gi in an attempt to distinguish themselves from non-judoists in the karate class.  Eventually, seeking to standardize apparel, Funakoshi told all his students to buy judo gi.  The belts spread in a similar manner.  The karate gi has changed little, while to some extent the judo gi has evolved, but thats a whole new thread.


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## Dark (Jun 14, 2006)

Rook said:
			
		

> Colored belts came into being in France - it a matter of some debate as to who origionally came up with the idea, but they ranked judo students competitive prowess and later other things. From there it spread back to Japan and was eventually standardized.


 
I thought Kano has visited a boarding shool (France perhaps) in Europe where different class wore different colored jackets and addapted the belt system from that.



			
				Rook said:
			
		

> The Karate gi comes from the Judo gi because Funakoshi's classes had many Judoka, who wore their gi in an attempt to distinguish themselves from non-judoists in the karate class. Eventually, seeking to standardize apparel, Funakoshi told all his students to buy judo gi. The belts spread in a similar manner. The karate gi has changed little, while to some extent the judo gi has evolved, but thats a whole new thread.


 
I also heard Funakoshi was told to adapt both the belt system and the gi to make the art of karate, more Japanese. But I never met either of the two and I'm not an expert on such politcal history.


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## Dark (Jun 14, 2006)

Ok here is what I got for old school Karate frame work...

No Belt system...
No excessive kata, about 6 core kata...
Heavy Focus on Fighting, not sport or kata...
Heavier focus on personal responsibility...
Focus on training the basics...

What else we need..?


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## Robert Lee (Jun 14, 2006)

Yes the white gi we see more or less in today time Is from  that time. And yes the concept of the color was from the ageing of the belt This was what I was told years ago. I believe it. And the students at first was given a black belt it represented there time in study. Far as judo That is where the belt system basicly came from.  It was not around early and Before Judo the used realy no speical uniform. Judo is a more modern art after As aikdo is not related in training but both derive froman other art making them softer But they are effective. Karate arts are much older the original ones anyway are. Others came what after 1926. Before the M/A arts Was not about showing ranks modern ranks belts came from change to the M/A world. change that led it to be trained in a different way then before. Change that led it to be taught to children in scools to people who would have never took it up It was becomeing out dated  as the world changed. It is so much easyer to train with a gun and the old timers new they had to make changes to share there art and keep the zen concept alive. M/A was not for every one. New kata made it easyer to learn easyer to except the training. bUt it made it softer because it now put sport into its training Just like today. It really is not very often or ever one would use a M/a on a street as things have changed We have more Law. we have guns. Yes from time to time one might need it. Train it right you can use it until then you just train it because you like the M/A. There are fights every day But most M/A people are not out looking or doing something that may make them need to fight. And most people that train in any fighting way fight less on the streets.  But like a soldier you train And use it only when you have too.


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## D.Cobb (Jun 14, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> But the art is fighting, and you are your own worst enemy. Allot of MMA guys don't want to go around bullying people, they want to test there metal, so to speak. I grow up with the challenge match attitude, and I have no problem with being challenged. So I understand that mentality, but there are some who want to mis-use that knowledge in any martial art. I just don't plan to judge the few louder children as the guys who just wonna shut and train in something they know will work.


 
The problem that most people have when it comes to old school stuff, is like you say, they want to know that it will work. That's where MMA comes in.

The way my instructor puts it, and his english isn't that good, is, "if you look for the logic in kata, you will not find it and you will not learn true karate."

You are supposed to train kata, by following the principles of the kata, the techniques and bunkai will become apparent with time, but should only be trained to enhance your knowledge of the principles inherent in that kata.

When the time comes that you have to turn it on, the kata will come out and you won't even have to think about it. Basically, it's the definition of Faith. It is the belief in things not yet seen. 

If you train it and trust it, it will work. You will be a Martial Artist.
Or, go and learn MMA or sport karate or boxing etc. and you will know what works, without the need for faith and you will be a fighter.

One is old school, one is not.

--Dave


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## D.Cobb (Jun 14, 2006)

evenflow1121 said:
			
		

> As little care as I have for sports karate type flash, I do not think one would ever be able to get rid of it in its entirety because there is a market for it. But what you can do is promote all the positive aspects of traditional Karate.


 
The very first thing my instructor said to me when I walked into his dojo, was "If want to learn tournament or competition karate, don't look here. I don't teach that, I only teach what my teacher taught me. I teach real karate."

Sport karate is for the guys with the competetive mindset, that just don't fit with team sports, but need to compete against others.

Old school, is for the guys or girls that feel the need to compete against themselves.

--Dave


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## D.Cobb (Jun 14, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> It starts with 1 person If you have studied long enough to have good knowledge of your given art You can drop the modern Kata call it what it was called prior to the modern name. And start it out fresh. Yes less people at first catch on. But is it about the money the peopl NO its about you and others that want to train it more like it was done in the past befor it sold out to modern levels that only help keep it around but do not really give it back to what it had. Hard work hard training and more about the unarmed fighter and person.


 
Quite right. The biggest problem facing themodern martial artist that wants to get back to the old stuff is the katas. You have to get back to what they were before the changes.

Unfortunately kata gets learned a little and taught a lot, instead of the other way round. 

You know how it goes, Joe Blow signs on at his local dojo. He learns his katas all the way up to black belt and then decides to break out on his own. He teaches what he knows, but only truely has the understanding of what he does, up to brown belt.

He teaches his students and they become black belts in his style, which means they are really brown belts anywhere else, and they only really understand what they know up to their version of brown belt.

They get their own students, and they learn to black belt but they really only are as good as the local purple belts and so it goes.

In the end we have all these katas that carry the same names but look nothing alike. If we don't find the real katas now, they may be lost to us before much longer. That's the thing that scares me.

--Dave


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## D.Cobb (Jun 14, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> The do-gi, Kano's creation, was not.
> 
> It was designed specifically for training as I understand it, created white because dye's where expensive. Everyone wearing the same gi was a way to remove "class" from training, no fancy clothes vs peasant clothes.
> 
> ...


 
From the books I've read and the photos I've seen, in Okinawa the humidity is extremely high. The students are all training in their version of underpants. They look like the things the sumos wear.

I guess that's why there is soooo little grappling in Okinawan Karate.

--Dave


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## D.Cobb (Jun 14, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> Ok here is what I got for old school Karate frame work...
> 
> No Belt system...
> No excessive kata, about 6 core kata...
> ...


 
I have to disagree on one point. The focus was on kata, not fighting. For the students at any rate. If you didn't learn your katas, you weren't allowed kumite. Kumite comes from kata. That's why you have the jiyo kumite, and ippon kumite, with the prearranged moves. The new student gets to understand what the kata is teaching him, then as he progresses, the kata becomes more alive to him.

--Dave


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## Andrew Green (Jun 14, 2006)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> From the books I've read and the photos I've seen, in Okinawa the humidity is extremely high. The students are all training in their version of underpants. They look like the things the sumos wear.
> 
> I guess that's why there is soooo little grappling in Okinawan Karate.
> 
> --Dave



sure there was, tons of it 

Called "tegumi" off the top of my head I remember Funakoshi's "Karate-Do: My way of Life" claiming it as a huge part of the culture in his childhood.  Lot's of other references too it in the older guys writtings too.  Sounds like a variation of Sumo.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 14, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> Ok here is what I got for old school Karate frame work...
> 
> No Belt system...
> No excessive kata, about 6 core kata...
> ...



Sounds a little like Motobu's method, but with mroe kata.  Of course his karate was regarded as "street-fighting" and not "real" karate by some big names if memory serves


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## Dark (Jun 15, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Sounds a little like Motobu's method, but with mroe kata. Of course his karate was regarded as "street-fighting" and not "real" karate by some big names if memory serves


 
I like street-finghting there is a kind of purity to it, you don't find anywhere else...


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## Dark (Jun 15, 2006)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> I have to disagree on one point. The focus was on kata, not fighting. For the students at any rate. If you didn't learn your katas, you weren't allowed kumite. Kumite comes from kata. That's why you have the jiyo kumite, and ippon kumite, with the prearranged moves. The new student gets to understand what the kata is teaching him, then as he progresses, the kata becomes more alive to him.
> 
> --Dave


 
What about Te before the chinese influence? Forms didn't exist until the Chinese came and kung-fu influenced Okinawan martial arts, before that it was like kick boxing, boxing and muay thai in many reguards.


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## Robert Lee (Jun 15, 2006)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> Quite right. The biggest problem facing themodern martial artist that wants to get back to the old stuff is the katas. You have to get back to what they were before the changes.
> 
> Unfortunately kata gets learned a little and taught a lot, instead of the other way round.
> 
> ...


 What is sad its already getting to late. In some of the old Koryu kata so,me of the locks and such has been lost. Due to translation for one and holding back on teaching for another.  And yes in away first Karate rots are the old kata. But as Toguchi said you will never find your Karate in the Kata. To me it says you have to look past Kata and fight it in your self. Understanding Kata is like a book it holds the information you need But if you do not see it as a place to extract the knowledge you just see some movemnets put together. And sadly I have seen this in many schools Kata as a required level for a belt. But when application comes into play.  Noe of that training is ever really usedjust asmall bit.  I did leave traditional M/A years ago. at first it was hard breaking away But it opened doors for me But remember most the Kata and every so often will go through one now and agin.    I did take the time To earn a higher level of black belt But do not use the belt system in What I do now. Nor do I teach Traditional Karate any more.  Do I respect it yes When it is not taught for point tournament Or the do this and that it will work. If its trained without the boosting of money Just enough to pay the rent basicly You get better instruction because the classes are smaller because it is taught harder and more in line to The Karate way rther then the sport For money


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## D.Cobb (Jun 20, 2006)

If you teach Karate for sport or tournaments, it loses what is real. Once you start point sparring, the principles on which the katas are based are lost.
The katas are the encyclopedia of our styles. You will find a system based upon a kata or two, and even if the school has 15 kata, only one or two are the basis for the style, the rest of the katas are like the little addenda at the back of some encyclopedia. A little bit of extra information, but not enough to change the heart of what you already know.

As to teaching for money, I have seen what the chase for the almighty dollar can do to the students who trust their money hungry senseii. Friends of mine have even stopped training because of the things they went through while their/ our senseii tried to get all their money. He evn tried to convince some students, if they stayed, he would teach them immortality.

--Dave


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## eyebeams (Jun 21, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> Ok here is what I got for old school Karate frame work...
> 
> No Belt system...
> No excessive kata, about 6 core kata...
> ...


 
Energy drills. Uechi-ryu has the most recent connection to Fujian martial arts and has kept many of these intact. Goju uses them as well.

Westling. Karateka were often amatuer wrestlers under a rules set (tegumi -- now called "okinawan sumo") that included the following, IIRC:
* Jackets and belts much of the time.
* Victory if any part of the opponent at the knee or above makes supporting ("posting") contact with the ground.

For a combined full contact karate sparring protocol I would recommend a mixture of kyokushinkaikan and sanshou rules. This allows safe bareknuckle contact as well as grappling and throwing within the traditional focus of karate.

The kata should undergo some reformation to follow the principles laid out in karate's forebears: native te martial arts and Southern Chinese martial arts. This means dropping rigid upright torso placement in favour of rounded shoulders. This is applied to the basic te structure, which probably resembled archaic muay thai and FMA more than the current formal structure. Secondary influence should come from the Jigen-ryu bugei, which were extremely influential in the Ryukyus (Matsumura practiced Jigen-ryu kenjutsu and Okinawa has some surviving jo techniques).


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## Dark (Jun 28, 2006)

I like allot of those ideas...
Thanks you eyebeams and well everyone for your input...


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## eyebeams (Jun 28, 2006)

Correction: I confused tegumi with something else. Victory is by getting the opponent's back to touch the ground. See article at:

http://karatejutsu.blogspot.com/2006/02/okinawan-sumo.html


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## hongkongfooey (Jun 30, 2006)

I don't believe that you could bring back old school Karate, today.

People are too happy to bring a lawsuit against someone today for a minor boo boo, that they received in Karate class. I can hear them now. "Your Honor, I had no clue that I was going to get beat up learning a Martial Art".


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## D.Cobb (Jun 30, 2006)

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> I don't believe that you could bring back old school Karate, today.
> 
> People are too happy to bring a lawsuit against someone today for a minor boo boo, that they received in Karate class. I can hear them now. "Your Honor, I had no clue that I was going to get beat up learning a Martial Art".


 
Yeah, that's why you get to sign a disclaimer that is written in plain speak. I had this discussion with Marc Denny of the Dog Brothers fame, and asked him how they didn't get sued.

I can't find the email he sent me but the disclaimer was somewhere along the lines of Martial arts traing involves contact at high levels. By signing this you will acknowledge that what you are about to undrtake is dangerous and the risk of injury is extremely high. And then something about not suing noone no how for nothing.

One of the Denny bros. is a lawyer I believe, so he knew what to write and how to word it. Apparently it stands up to the scrutiny of the California legal system.

--Dave


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## searcher (Jul 3, 2006)

This is the very thing I have been pondering for many years and I have yet to figure it out.   I have so wanted to bring back the ways of studying with several masters on a single aspect that they have become "superior" at.   The major problem is that there is no way to start the process of digressing to that state.   If it starts heading that way the masses will not accept it and will go elsewhere.   It is all a part of the soccer mom mentality.   Lets have little bobby or sue go do the karate thing for a while and then go to something else.   This leads to no dedicated students.   Or maybe having children in the classes is the problem.   We have to tone down the subject matter to fit in with today's society.    If this is going to work all karateka must go the route of the Dog Brothers and cut out what is not working ie the flash.   Just my $0.02 worth.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 3, 2006)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> Yeah, that's why you get to sign a disclaimer that is written in plain speak. I had this discussion with Marc Denny of the Dog Brothers fame, and asked him how they didn't get sued.
> 
> I can't find the email he sent me but the disclaimer was somewhere along the lines of Martial arts traing involves contact at high levels. By signing this you will acknowledge that what you are about to undrtake is dangerous and the risk of injury is extremely high. And then something about not suing noone no how for nothing.
> 
> ...


 
Eventually someone will find a way around it.  You could still be successfully sued if it was proven that the injury was administered maliciously or negligently, and was beyond what could "reasonably" be expected in the normal course of the class and training.

At the very least, it can be tremendously expensive to defend against, even if you win.


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## searcher (Jul 3, 2006)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> One of the Denny bros. is a lawyer I believe, so he knew what to write and how to word it. Apparently it stands up to the scrutiny of the California legal system.
> 
> --Dave


 
It is Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny that is the lawyer.   He is one sharp cookie.


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## jisshukan (Jul 6, 2006)

GREETINGS TO EVERYONE. I JUST BECOME A MEMBER OF THIS FORUM OF MARTIAL ARTS. I WAS BORN AND RAISED IN ORTHODOX OKINAWAN KARATE AND KOBUDO, SO FOR ME WHAT YOU CALL "OLD SCHOOL KARATE" IS MY WAY OF LIFE. TODE, UCHINADI, KARATE ETC. WAS MADE FOR OURSELVES TO LEARN, FOLLOW, PRACTICE, TEACH, DEVELOPED AND MORE LEARNING. TRADITIONAL WAYS ARE THE ROOTS, MODERN KARATE WAS MADE FOR ANOTHER PURPOSES AND NEEDS, FREE STYLE KARATE IS AN EXPRETION OF WHAT THE BODY CAN DO IF YOU MIX MARTIAL ARTS WITH GYMNASTICS. WITHOUT DISRISPECT ANYONE IN THIS FORUM, MY PERSONAL WISHES ARE THAT ALL ORTHODOX KARATE TEACHERS AND PRACTICIONERS PRESERVED THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND PASS DOWN THEM THE SAME WAY THEY LEARN IT.


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## pstarr (Jul 6, 2006)

Welcome and well said, Jisshukan!  :asian:


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## Cirdan (Jul 6, 2006)

Welcome to MT Jisshukan :asian:


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## Robert Lee (Jul 6, 2006)

If you train for the art And not so much for the money. You can find the small amount of students that want the real deal. Now when you take every person who walks into your school well thats different. remember in the old school . You had to be excepted only after the instructor decided he would teach you. Not when you chose that he would be your instructor. Select classes less problems.


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## icp1775 (Jul 25, 2006)

everyone does need to go back to the old school style. the bad thing is it is a good chance it will not happen.


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