# Behaviour of boy scout groups while camping? Discuss...



## Carol (Oct 15, 2013)

For youth group camping at the park, we typically get out-of-state scout boy groups, generally from CT, RI, NY and Mass.  The CT and RI scouts are largely very good, where the MA and NY scouts are more of a mixed bag.


Over the Columbus day weekend, we had some large groups in from Mass. as well as CT.  Both were fantastic!  But in the beginning of the we had a couple of groups that weren't so great, with noise and etiquette issues that had to be managed.  What was more disappointing to me than the behavioural issues, was that the boys themselves just didn't seem that in to camping with us.  

One of the rangers posited that the problematic groups had a different mentality...as if camping with us was little more than a checkbox to be checked.

Do any of you see this sort of mentality with youth group camping -- boy scouts or otherwise?


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## Makalakumu (Oct 15, 2013)

Was this just a regular outing or was there some larger point to the get together?  A lot of times when troops put too much focus on merit badges, going camping does just become a way of meeting a requirement.  However, some groups use camping as a way of doing other things on the cheap.  For example, my troop always went camping on our travels because it simply was the cheapest and most efficient way to move around a large number of boys.


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## Carol (Oct 15, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Was this just a regular outing or was there some larger point to the get together?  A lot of times when troops put too much focus on merit badges, going camping does just become a way of meeting a requirement.  However, some groups use camping as a way of doing other things on the cheap.  For example, my troop always went camping on our travels because it simply was the cheapest and most efficient way to move around a large number of boys.



That's an interesting question!  I can see a bit of both.  

The park is a very popular mountain, so the primary purpose to the trip is general to hike the mountain, but I don't know what is going on at a deeper level...e.g. is the trip done to achieve X, Y or Z for the badges.  This definitely seems to fit the "checkbox" mentality.

We're a self-supported park (meaning: we charge admission).  Our camping rates include the day pass for the mountain, so its a way for the group to visit the mountain and keep prices down for everyone, too.


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## rlobrecht (Oct 15, 2013)

I'm the Scoutmaster for my son's Troop, so take this comment with that in mind.

We've seen good kids, and bad kids, and good groups of kids and bad groups of kids, no matter what group they've been affiliated with.  (Scouts, Y-Guides, church groups, family reunions, etc.)  The one that usually bothers me the most are those that are disrespectful to nature, which generally seems to be the church groups.

Our Troop tries very hard to make sure our Scouts are quiet after dark, stay out of other people's camp sites, and are respectful of others in common areas.  We do let them be boys during the day, which people may or may not like, if they are going for peaceful.

Rick


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## Tames D (Oct 15, 2013)

Any and every organization has good and bad members and leadership. Boy Socouts are no different and we can't expect them to be. How can we hold BSA to a higher standard when LEO's, Military, Politicians and Religious members/leaders are setting the example?

BSA is a good organization with alot of the best kids you will ever meet. It's too bad all we hear about is the negative.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 16, 2013)

Carol said:


> For youth group camping at the park, we typically get out-of-state scout boy groups, generally from CT, RI, NY and Mass.  The CT and RI scouts are largely very good, where the MA and NY scouts are more of a mixed bag.
> 
> 
> Over the Columbus day weekend, we had some large groups in from Mass. as well as CT.  Both were fantastic!  But in the beginning of the we had a couple of groups that weren't so great, with noise and etiquette issues that had to be managed.  What was more disappointing to me than the behavioural issues, was that the boys themselves just didn't seem that in to camping with us.
> ...



Didn't see that when I was a Boy Scout (and I was) from Mass camping in NH (and I did)...but that was over 35 years ago so I imagine things have changed a lot since then


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## arnisador (Oct 16, 2013)

A lot of these kids are in scouts at their parents' choice--so I'm not too surprised.


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## Carol (Oct 16, 2013)

rlobrecht said:


> I'm the Scoutmaster for my son's Troop, so take this comment with that in mind.
> 
> We've seen good kids, and bad kids, and good groups of kids and bad groups of kids, no matter what group they've been affiliated with.  (Scouts, Y-Guides, church groups, family reunions, etc.)  The one that usually bothers me the most are those that are disrespectful to nature, which generally seems to be the church groups.
> 
> ...



That's all we ask.  We don't pay as much attention to what the groups do during the day, they are usually on trail and so am I -- and trail is a heckuva good place to let kids be kids.   

But as the day winds down, if all of our groups kept the screaming, shrieking and overall high volume stuff to a minimum in the evening hours, we'd be thrilled.  Ditto with staying out of other people's campsites, being respectful in common areas, and obeying the park's quiet hours (quiet hours means no one can hear you) deadline of 11pm.


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## granfire (Oct 16, 2013)

One problem with BSA is that the LDS church sponsors about 70% of the troops.
They made it mandatory for the boys to join, as well as for the men to be involved in leadership.
That does mirror in the behavior. I have heard - but I don't remember who told me that - that the summer camps prefer to reserve the last week or so of official summer camp for these troops. Because they.do.not.care. it's rough on the staff and the facilities.

of course, there is also the thing with the leadership. While BSA is meant to be boy-led on the troop level, the adults set the pace and example. There is another troop nearby, that has it all together when it comes to outings, but is oddly sloppy when it comes to other things. We met with them to get some information, and in the hour, plus we were there, the 4 boys present would simply not put their cellphones down.....(but they were not LDS)

You get a mixed bag. 

but I can tell you one little secret - well, it's not a secret - yell 'signs up' in a crowd of scouts and all should shut up and raise their right hand! 

Maybe try to engage the individual into conversation (never one on one though) and see what's going on. Might give them something to think about (but possibly not, as I said, leadership sets the example)


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## Carol (Oct 16, 2013)

Tames D said:


> Any and every organization has good and bad members and leadership. Boy Socouts are no different and we can't expect them to be. How can we hold BSA to a higher standard when LEO's, Military, Politicians and Religious members/leaders are setting the example?
> 
> BSA is a good organization with alot of the best kids you will ever meet. It's too bad all we hear about is the negative.



Which was why I made a point of mentioning more than once that we have had some great boy scout groups join us in our campground.  We aren't interested in attacking the BSA.  We would like to build stronger ties with the New England scouts.   With the groups that have presented some issues for us, we don't want to simply dismiss them as hopeless.  We'd like to work with the group to make a better experience for everyone.   There is a scoutmaster with a group that has given us a lot of trouble in the past that has been communicating with us -- he wants to rebuild the ties to the mountain and plan future adventures with his scouts.   We are more than happy to work with them -- we want to see more of this!

Perhaps by brainstorming with other knowledgeable people, we can find more ideas


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## Carol (Oct 16, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Didn't see that when I was a Boy Scout (and I was) from Mass camping in NH (and I did)...but that was over 35 years ago so I imagine things have changed a lot since then



Some things may have changed, others not so much.  I imagine we had some challenging campers 35 years ago too.  One thing that has changed from 35 years ago is that scouting is in the decline, and I don't think that's a good thing overall.

I reposted the same post to another group I'm part of -- some are mothers with sons that are in the boy scouts.  One mom from California said that the scout groups from more urbanized areas typically don't have enough leaders that are experienced in things like camping etiquette.  So in turn, these basic skills do not get get taught as consistently.  That would certainly explain why we see the regional differences, since CT and RI are a bit more rural than Mass. and NY.


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## rlobrecht (Oct 17, 2013)

granfire said:


> While BSA is meant to be boy-led on the troop level, the adults set the pace and example.



If you're looking for a way to tone down the misbehavior while the Scouts are there, you'll have to find the adults.  Or worst case, go back to their reservation details and call the adult that made their reservation.


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## jks9199 (Oct 17, 2013)

I think a lot is going to depend on the individual troop (or other similar unit in other organizations).  BSA troops SHOULD be well behaved, and considerate...  but they're made up of 11 to 18 year olds.  I've been rather dismayed by how I've seen some troops run; way back when, when I was in Scouts, my troop expected the youths to take charge and do things.  Adults were there as guidance and "stupidity filters."  

Check the records, and see if the problems are consistent with a particular unit.  If so -- address it with them.  If it's more erratic, I'd suggest a new practice where a staff member or ranger (ideally someone with authority more than a "mere" volunteer) has a quick rules reminder early in the stay.  Nothing harsh, just a "we've found it useful to remind groups of the rules..." type of thing.  After that, problems get addressed more directly when they occur.

And... if they're Boy Scouts consistently, and they seem to after meeting requirements and getting credit for the camp out...  Well, you could always threaten to contact the council and recommend that, since the troop failed to live up to the ideals of the BSA, you would strongly suggest that they be encouraged to withhold the credit.  I bet the first time a letter like that goes out, you start seeing a marked change -- or the problems stop coming.


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## Carol (Oct 17, 2013)

rlobrecht said:


> If you're looking for a way to tone down the misbehavior while the Scouts are there, you'll have to find the adults.  Or worst case, go back to their reservation details and call the adult that made their reservation.



I think part of our issue is that some of our challenging groups also have adults who don't care very much.  For example, we ask that our campers arrive by 8pm.  Our last ranger goes off shift at 9pm, this gives the campers an hour to arrive and meet with the ranger to settle up.   We understand the challenges of getting away with a bunch of kids on a Friday night.  Heck, I live those challenges (minus the kids!) every week.  I have a corporate job and 24x7 responsibilities of a corporate tech job.  I can't duck out early every Friday to go camping just because I have a volunteer gig.

But its a little disturbing when a group is going to be significantly late, and doesn't call to let us know.  If they call us, we can at least plan appropriately.   Are they familiar and comfortable enough with this area so they can come in, unload, and check in with the morning crew to settle up?  Or are they not as familiar with us and therefore at least one of us stays up to receive them, else they'll be driving their duallys in circles around the whole place  because they can't read the campground map well enough to find their campsite.  Without that call, we don't know.


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## jks9199 (Oct 18, 2013)

The late arrivals are a separate problem.  One option might be to lock the gate...  but I doubt that's practical.  A small late arrival fee might serve as a deterrent -- even if it's only applied to groups.  Waive the fee if they call or otherwise arrange the late arrival.  At least that way, you'll get the notice.  You could also put a very visible sign on the site for when they arrive late like that, rather than what I'm pretty confident are the typical little wooden number/letter signs for the site.  Something like an easel that would be easy to put up & take down.

How much control or authority does the park have to refuse groups?  If they've been a problem, and the adults haven't been cooperative -- why let 'em come back?


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## Carol (Oct 23, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> The late arrivals are a separate problem.  One option might be to lock the gate...  but I doubt that's practical.  A small late arrival fee might serve as a deterrent -- even if it's only applied to groups.  Waive the fee if they call or otherwise arrange the late arrival.  At least that way, you'll get the notice.  You could also put a very visible sign on the site for when they arrive late like that, rather than what I'm pretty confident are the typical little wooden number/letter signs for the site.  Something like an easel that would be easy to put up & take down.
> 
> How much control or authority does the park have to refuse groups?  If they've been a problem, and the adults haven't been cooperative -- why let 'em come back?



The park does have the authority to refuse groups.  But despite being a state park, we have zero state funding.   So when we have groups not come back, that has the potential to cut in to our revenue.  Of course, if our better groups don't come back because of the problematic groups, that also hurts our revenue.  

Personally I'd rather not have it be so binary -- as in a group is welcome or they are not welcome.   The big hammer is there, but if there's another solution, I'd like to find it.   I'm more interested in brainstorming to see if there is some way that things can improve, so we don't have to face the situation of anyone not coming back. :asian:

The easel and the late fees are interesting ideas.  I especially like the late fees.  I'm not sure if the state allows us to charge them, but that might help show the suits at the state capitol how there really is a need for staff to be on-site on the campground.


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## granfire (Oct 23, 2013)

find somebody in the scout hierarchy. If there is trouble that could cause the whole organization to suffer, they want to know. I am sure they can help you out in  this.


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## Carol (Oct 23, 2013)

arnisador said:


> A lot of these kids are in scouts at their parents' choice--so I'm not too surprised.



There's definitely some teen and pre-teen angst.  A lot of kids, especially boys, would rather be sitting on their butts playing video games rather than doing something a little more constructive.

On the flip side is the Girl Scouts, where the girls have a lot of say in what the activities are.  That's watered down their scouting program so much that the impression of the GSA is that the girls just color and earn badges...and from some of the GSA outings I've seen, I don't think that's to far from the truth.

I have seen a lot of boy youth groups and mixed gender groups camp out on my mountain, but haven't seen any girl youth groups at all.


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## Carol (Oct 23, 2013)

granfire said:


> find somebody in the scout hierarchy. If there is trouble that could cause the whole organization to suffer, they want to know. I am sure they can help you out in  this.



Not a bad idea.  I think that will get easier as I get to know the groups better.  I've been speaking with some other folks that are scout parents, and it does seem to me that there's quite a bit that's simply lack of experience.  And that's something that can be improved as long as there is interest.


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## Carol (Oct 23, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> Check the records, and see if the problems are consistent with a particular unit.  If so -- address it with them.  If it's more erratic, I'd suggest a new practice where a staff member or ranger (ideally someone with authority more than a "mere" volunteer) has a quick rules reminder early in the stay.  Nothing harsh, just a "we've found it useful to remind groups of the rules..." type of thing.  After that, problems get addressed more directly when they occur.



Agreed, the park would prefer that volunteers do not get involved in anything that has the potential to be confrontational.  Its fine if someone asks "What are the rules for X" and I tell them, but yet another to approach someone to say "These are the rules for X."  And I'm fine with that, I'm happy to leave the stuff that feels like work to the folks who are paid to do it


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 17, 2014)

Carol said:


> For youth group camping at the park, we typically get out-of-state scout boy groups, generally from CT, RI, NY and Mass.  The CT and RI scouts are largely very good, where the MA and NY scouts are more of a mixed bag.
> 
> 
> Over the Columbus day weekend, we had some large groups in from Mass. as well as CT.  Both were fantastic!  But in the beginning of the we had a couple of groups that weren't so great, with noise and etiquette issues that had to be managed.  What was more disappointing to me than the behavioural issues, was that the boys themselves just didn't seem that in to camping with us.
> ...




A scout is kind, courteous, and helpful. Unfortunately lots of scouts don't live up to that, you do find bullying in boyscouts like you find it just about everywhere else.


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## donald1 (Jul 17, 2014)

Now these days there's no place where bullying can't be found


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 17, 2014)

donald1 said:


> Now these days there's no place where bullying can't be found



Yes that's true, including the dojo.


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## jks9199 (Jul 17, 2014)

Carol -- any updates?  Things get worked out?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## donald1 (Jul 17, 2014)

If it was the dojo I'd make them do pushups till I get tired of watching next time and any bullying after that will have to leave the dojo


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 17, 2014)

donald1 said:


> If it was the dojo I'd make them do pushups till I get tired of watching next time and any bullying after that will have to leave the dojo



Bullies in the dojo can sometimes include the people that run the dojo.


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