# CHI ? Have a look at This Clip Sifu Mooney moves subjects without touching them.



## paulk (Nov 26, 2001)

Has any body heard of Sifu Rick Mooney?

Have a look at the link below, scroll down to the bottom of the screen and select the Rick Mooney Clip titled: -

Sifu Mooney moves subjects without touching them.  

Have a look at this 

What do you think?


----------



## arnisador (Nov 26, 2001)

> _Originally posted by paulk _
> *Sifu Mooney moves subjects without touching them.
> *



Yes, George Dillman has been doing this at his camps also. I saw a young girl do it to a large man at his Indianapolis camp. Mr. Dillman also does no-touch knockouts and has students generate and pass chi balls back and forth.



> *What do you think? *



I am embarrassed for these people that they don't seem to realize that they have accidentally rediscovered simple stage magic. It's the power of suggestion combined with the inability of the average person to stand perfectly still, especially with their balance evenly distributed. (Note how you naturally rest your weight principally on one leg or another if you're standing for a long time.) This is the same general idea for the no-touch knockouts--there may be some aspects of mesmerism but for the most part these are "social pressure" knockouts, where the student falls to avoid embarrassing their instructor.

Let me be clear: Anyone who believes this type of thing deserves to have their money taken by these people.


----------



## IFAJKD (Nov 26, 2001)

COULDN'T AGREE MORE...These stage tricks have done so much harm to legitimate martial arts that it's embarrassing. I must answer questions along these lines at least once a week..."did you see the yada yada yada....? "


----------



## KumaSan (Nov 26, 2001)

This exact same topic (same guy and all) is being discussed over at e-budo. Mr. Mooney himself is participating in this discussion. Seems kind of like a whacko to me.

Does chi exist? I think yes. Is this it? I think not. This kind of reminds me of Sachonokowski (sp) and his Combat Ki psychos. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Cthulhu (Nov 26, 2001)

These are just simple tricks novice magicians use.  Unfortunately, my instructor seems to believe in this guy, but he respects that I think he's a phoney.

Long ago, on RMA, someone devised a test to see if Mooney could really do these things.  It involved the test subject being blindfolded with some sort of earplugs, among other things.  If Mooney could adequately prove his abilities were real, his travel costs would be refunded.  He agreed to it, but quickly backed away, with various pathetic excuses.

Cthulhu


----------



## Jay Bell (Nov 26, 2001)

> What do you think?



*sigh*  Seeing how this is a friendly board, I won't really answer much of that question.

I think all of the "Mooney-ites" (new word) should take a leap off of a very high cliff.  Martial arts have a huge mystique amoung non-martial artists...and this just baits those poor saps into believing it.

Unfortunately I can't read Mooney's posts on E-budo right now due to it being down for maintenance.


----------



## GouRonin (Nov 27, 2001)

The guy has a long history on RMA. Good or bad. He will however be in St Catherines, right across the border from the Buffalo-folk in January 2002 giving a seminar.

Myself, I just don't think that he's all he claims.
:asian:


----------



## Rubber Ducky (Nov 28, 2001)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *The guy has a long history on RMA. Good or bad. He will however be in St Catherines, right across the border from the Buffalo-folk in January 2002 giving a seminar.
> 
> Myself, I just don't think that he's all he claims.
> :asian: *



But are you going to the seminar? 

Pierre


----------



## GouRonin (Nov 28, 2001)

So far you're like the 12th person to ask me this. I might. Depending on when it is, and how much this guy wants to charge me to go. I'd like to take Jaybacca and Renegade:erg: with me if I do go. Overall i don't wanna be dumping cash to this guy if I'm not interested. But should the price and time be right I might be up for it.
:hammer:


----------



## bujinclergy (Dec 3, 2001)

I think you should go...
Rich has a ton of good info,
he's fun and a hell of a good guy


bujinclergy:angel:


----------



## GouRonin (Dec 4, 2001)

Send me the seminar fee and the time off.

I don't have unlimited resources people. I plan carefully for my self whom I go see. If I had the time and money I would see everyone. I don't and can't.

Like I said, if I can I will.


----------



## arnisador (Jan 26, 2002)

There's a post today on rec.martial-arts that addeesses this:

From: gojudoug <gojudoug@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts,alt.meditation.qigong
Subject: Grandmaster Mooney's seminar tour in canada
Message-ID: <va565u8eriph3r732uto18konnlbve55lk@4ax.com>




> To show that all this was not a fluke! Afterwards at dinner in one of our frequented restaurants ,Sigung demonstrated on the waiter the ability of emty force by pushing him off balance from a distance of 6ft. away, to the amazement of many patrons. I guess that is wha the waiter got for asking questions about Sigung's ability!!



The author discusses Mr. Mooney performing similar demonstrations at the seminar.



> Lastly...I will put this bluntly!! If you people
> want to know what the real M/A is about, get this man in to show you! Don't let EGO get in the way a vast universe of knowledge that Rich can and will enrich you with.



There you have it: The real martial arts is about moving waiters from 6 feet away. Don't miss it!


----------



## GouRonin (Jan 26, 2002)

I've done things with waitresses from about 6 feet away...


----------



## Cthulhu (Jan 26, 2002)

A couple of times a year, Mooney gets one of his suckers to post some glowing review of 'Sifu' Mooney's 'feats'.  From the excerpts provided by arnisador, the writing style seems very similar to RMA posts made several years ago that praised Mooney.

Mooney has been challenged several times to prove his claims under controlled circumstances.  Every single time, he backs out with some pathetic excuse.

In the video clips I've seen, he's either giving vocal or visual prompts, which the people unconciously or conciously follow.  Basically, people who already believe, or want to believe, in that junk will follow the prompts, believing in Mooney's 'abilities'.

He's a fraud.

Cthulhu


----------



## GouRonin (Feb 3, 2002)

I tried to make you all fall forward with my chi at exactly 13:30.

Did it work?


----------



## Kirk (Feb 3, 2002)

> I don't have unlimited resources people.




You don't?  My whole image of you is tarnished now.


----------



## Yari (Feb 4, 2002)

Was that CET or US time?

Just asking, 'cause I want to know if the falling part was 'cause I'm getting old.....or .....


----------



## fist of fury (Feb 4, 2002)

I think it's sad that people still fall for this and besides that it gives M.Aist a bad name.


----------



## Yari (Feb 6, 2002)

I gotta agree on that!


----------



## white dragon (Feb 12, 2002)

There was a guy on tv (kind of like our answer to David Blaine) who specialises in mind control. He went into a school and got the instructor to demonstrate his 1 inch punch. And very impressive it was to. So the guy then picks a student at random (actually gets the instructor to pick someone) and does a 1 inch punch without touching the guy. He falls on the floor ofcourse. After the guy gets his breth back he then does it again, but standing behind him so he can't see when he's going to strike. The guy falls over again. Kinda spooky, but the guy explains it's purely in the guys head and there's nothing to it at all. 

However, if you can convince someone that you've hit them when you haven't come close, isn't that a good art?


----------



## Yari (Feb 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by white dragon _
> *
> 
> However, if you can convince someone that you've hit them when you haven't come close, isn't that a good art? *



To answer that short : nope....... the wrong word here is convince. There would be no-convince if it was correct.



:asian: 

/Yari


----------



## white dragon (Feb 12, 2002)

ok I see your point there. But still, despite it being no more than a magic trick I'd like to learn it... just because it looks good, not for a martial arts purpose.


----------



## Yari (Feb 12, 2002)

Magic is really fun, but nothing else. It's fun to watch a good magician. It's also fun to do some small tricks for family and friends. But make it into something it ain't!

Enjoy!

/Yari


----------



## GouRonin (Feb 12, 2002)

I always think of that magician martial arts guy who created a system using slight of hand in applying it. Of course when he revealed that he hid things in his bum I sorta lost interest.


----------



## Yari (Feb 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Of course when he revealed that he hid things in his bum I sorta lost interest.
> *



I hope it wasn't a katana.... :rofl: 

/yari


----------



## vincefuess (Feb 15, 2002)

He counts on the mutual respect martial artists share.  What if (just a what if) someone he was performing his no-touch chi upon were to haul off and bitchslap him in the middle of the demo?

Not that this is a suggestion, nor anything I would want to see done- but many martial magicians get by on the kindness of others.  Nobody wants to point out a charlatan in the middle of their demo on the school mat, especially if he is a nice guy.

You would instantly be the bad guy.  BUT... what would happen?  Would your slap be magically diverted?


----------



## arnisador (Feb 17, 2002)

Mr. Mooney has an article in the current Kung Fu Qigong magazine concerning this technique (using a Chinese name that escapes me). He uses it to make people drop knives held to his throat or to make a charging attacker fall to the ground and drop his knife.

Apparently some clips are here:
http://www.wheelers-isshinryu.com/Pages/mooney.html


----------



## Yari (Feb 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *He uses it to make people drop knives held to his throat or to make a charging attacker fall to the ground and drop his knife.
> 
> *




I can do that... usally saturday morning, or sunday, and I use my ki(through my mouth....) Take your pick...  

:rofl: 

I'm a little bit old when it comes to things like that: I've gotta try it before believing in it.


----------



## vincefuess (Feb 19, 2002)

My views on this topic usually begin with the initials B.S.  I have seen the Mooney clips (in fact I saved them to disk for reference) and find them unimpressive.  I have seen these tricks done SO many times.  The demonstrator always uses a "patsy" to demonstrate- never a seasoned martial artist who will no doubt make them look bad.

Don't get me wrong- there are a great many things a dedicated martial artist CAN do that seems superhuman to the non-practitioner- but this stuff is, well... what I said before.

I had a guy get all chapped with me one time because he said his master could levitate.  I suggested he do it on firm ground of MY choice- not a prepped stage.  Such demos were beneath them I was told.  I told them fraud is a punishable crime.

There is enough to master in REAL martial arts- don't waste time chasing magic.


----------



## Cthulhu (Feb 19, 2002)

I mentioned this before, but Mooney has been given the opportunity to prove his claims under controlled conditions several times.  Each time, he agrees to do it until the actual day nears, at which point he gives some lame excuse to back out.

It's all smoke and mirrors, people.

Cthulhu

Good lord, that's a lotta smilies


----------



## kenpo_cory (Feb 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by paulk _
> *Has any body heard of Sifu Rick Mooney?
> 
> Have a look at the link below, scroll down to the bottom of the screen and select the Rick Mooney Clip titled: -
> ...



Is this clip still there, i couldn't find it. I don't believe in this sort of thing but i would be interested in seeing the video.


----------



## arnisador (Feb 28, 2002)

There is an article on Mr. Mooney in the Feb. 2002 issue of Martial Arts Illustrated, a British martial arts magazine that is on the satnds now. He discusses his use of _Lin Kong Jing_ tostop opponents without touching them.

In the Apr. 2002 issue of Martial Arts (Combat Sports), also on the stands now, Mr. Dillman discusses his use of the no-touch knockout.


----------



## brianbarton (Mar 4, 2002)

Does anyone know where I can view this clip as the link in the forum doesn't appear to deliver it.


----------



## spartacus (Mar 7, 2002)

Ive seen him in action and it is pure psychological. He shouted at a young kid who came running at him with a knife - as he did he also waved his hand. Of course the little fella jumped. "there, you see", said RM  "empty force"


----------



## Drunken Master (Mar 7, 2002)

Well, It doesn't really sound worth bothering about does it!


----------



## arnisador (Jun 12, 2002)

The current issue of KUNG FU QIGONG MAGAZINE
 has an article that is a followup of sorts to the one on Mr. Mooney, according to an editor's note in the letters section. It features Leon Jay of SCJJ doing no-touch knockouts he learned from George Dillman. The technique failed on the reporter but he reports other successes.


----------



## tonbo (Jun 13, 2002)

Oh, boy...... 

Yeah, same thing with guys like Uri Geller and a whole host of other "psychics".

I don't have concrete proof that anyone is a fraud, mind you, but there is this guy out there named James Randi.  He is a magician as well as a debunker, and he has had a longstanding challenge:  he will pay $10,000 to anyone who can perform a feat of psychic ability in controlled circumstances that he can't duplicate by trickery.

Far as I know, he still hasn't had to pay up.

Most of this stuff relies on one simple element:  the belief (gullibility) of the viewer.

I have seen some *amazing* magic, even some from as little as two feet away.  The guys are good at slight of hand and misdirection.  Funny thing is, you don't even realize you've been misdirected most of the time.....you are too busy trying to catch them in their act.

Anyway, I think that a lot of this is pure crap.  I'm sure there are some instances out there where chi is used to do amazing feats (the old "woman lifts car off of child" story), but I don't think that anyone with chi powers like these guys are claiming are going to be doing two shows a night in Vegas, if ya get my drift......

 

Peace--


----------



## Nightingale (Jun 14, 2002)

the old woman lifting the car off the child isn't chi. its adrenaline.  when your body pumps itself full of adrenaline, its a powerful stimulant which lets us do things that we wouldn't ordinarily do.  Think of a sparring match... do you really feel it when you get hit? nope. its because you have so much adrenaline that your body lets you do things (like take hits that would ordinarily hurt like hell) that normally would have you rolling on the ground.  Then, when you go to take a shower and notice the large purple bruise on your kidney, you just shake your head and say "how'd the heck did I do that?"


----------



## Turner (Jun 17, 2002)

I personally don't care if the guy is a fake or not. I have no desire to move someone from 6 feet away. If I'm worked up enough to move someone, I'm definately worked up enough to lay ahold of them with my hands and move em where I want them. I don't need some invisible farce.. I mean force... to do my fightin' for me. Yeesh, some people wanna take all the fun out of the Martial Arts.


----------



## arnisador (Jul 19, 2002)

http://www.randi.org/jr/071902.html

The Amazing Randi partially debunks Mr. Mooney's chi tricks.


----------



## tigerstorm (Jul 21, 2002)

Ive met this guy and he wants money.  I didnt look at the clip I dont have to I saw him teach, Ive seen him demonstrate techniques, and I know what I saw, his name should be spelt money not mooney.  Whether you belive in this stuff or not, I dont believe this guy has any more chi than a brick wall.

  Tigerstorm


----------



## Cruentus (Jul 22, 2002)

I see a lot of people who study Systema subscribed to this thread. 

I have heard and seen video's of Vladimir's (and his instructors) doing "psychic training." Throwing someone w/o touching them was a part of this. Since this is along the same lines, could one of you systema guys elaborate on this. Is it completely fake, internal energy, a trick, or the power of suggestion.

Also, I've heard accounts of Morihiba Ueshiba (sp??), the founder of Aikido, doing astonishing feats such as throwing a person w/o actually touching them (as well as other amazing feats). There are many Aikido masters who make the claim that they are capable of such feats. Can any Aikido person answer the above? Is it completely fake, internal energy, a trick, or merely the power of suggestion?

Please elaborate.


----------



## arnisador (Jul 22, 2002)

I think the aikido case is a little different. I have heard of the Systema psychic energy idea and have seen videos of a big shirtless man in Russia punching people in the stomach while wandering around nonchalantly, claiming that psychic energy is being used.


----------



## GouRonin (Jul 22, 2002)

Psychic implies the use of a mental energy to influence the extrenal movements of another. It is somewhat misleading.

Imagine you are walking through the forest talking with a friend. You turn as you are walking to see a tree limb in front of you. You instinctivly move to avoid it. Often when you see people do this they look pretty funny as they contort their body to all sorts of weird shapes.

When many systema people do this imagine they are being the branch and forcing you to move in a way that you naturally would. However since they are using psychological techniques they are in effect using their mind on your mind to effect action on your physical movements. So really the psychic is not always what you might think.

An example might be the last time I was at Vlad's. A new guy was there and we were doing escape techniques from punches. Everytime the guy would set to throw a punch I would simply move away. He would stop throwing his punch in mid air. I asked him why. He said he knew he wouldn't hit me so he just stopped. In effect, when he wanted to punch me I made him stop by the motion of my body in a certain way. It was a psychological action that I was using. 

Hope this makes sense. However there are things more into a psychic realm involved with other things that I cannot explain as of yet.


----------



## philinoy (Dec 27, 2004)

tigerstorm said:
			
		

> Ive met this guy and he wants money. I didnt look at the clip I dont have to I saw him teach, Ive seen him demonstrate techniques, and I know what I saw, his name should be spelt money not mooney. Whether you belive in this stuff or not, I dont believe this guy has any more chi than a brick wall.
> 
> Tigerstorm


You have never met with him, or trained with him. Because if you had ever seen his martial arts skills, you'd know he was above board. The second thing: He never ever promoted LKJ or whatever as anything more than fun stuff to play with, and never to be used in real life. It was all done as a matter of psychologically manipulating opponents, and having fun with friends. period.


----------



## The Kai (Dec 27, 2004)

So you think you can knock someone out across the room???

Todd


----------



## philinoy (Jan 1, 2005)

spartacus said:
			
		

> Ive seen him in action and it is pure psychological. He shouted at a young kid who came running at him with a knife - as he did he also waved his hand. Of course the little fella jumped. "there, you see", said RM "empty force"


You've never met him. Your post is inaccurate. Please state the place you attended his seminar, as he always had them taped, I'm sure it will be easy to see who you are.


----------



## GAB (Jan 1, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> So you think you can knock someone out across the room???
> 
> Todd


Hi All, 

I was over at SanJoseKenpo.com and a person posting as Brian B. Baxter is posting the same BS.

This person or person's, like's to do this every once in awhile. Pure bunk.

Paul calls it like it is....

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai (Jan 1, 2005)

Who's brian baxter??


----------



## philinoy (Jan 15, 2005)

ya know, no one who has ever talked bad about this dude has ever trained with him. period. not one person. 


then you have other people who have never met him passing the same lies along.

so that means absolutley nothing. these people's opinions are lies upon lies.

I dare one person on this board to attend one of moonebeams seminars, and have their picture taken with him to prove they have met him. until then its just all lies. and those claiming otherwise... are liars.


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jan 15, 2005)

moonbeam? is that a super secret codename?

shawn


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jan 15, 2005)

Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Please keep the conversation on topic
Sheldon Bedell
-MT Moderator-


----------



## wave (Jan 16, 2005)

Hi



I know Rich Mooney quite well. I was the first person to invite him to come to the UK to show his LKJ work.

He is a great guy and a great MA. The use of LKJ has been reported very innacurately by most people. Rich is the first to say that it is not combative and is only a demo of "possibilities". IF it did work combatively it is a first try at defence. You are going to be fighting anyway regardless of whether it works or not.

Rich has had his fair share of trouble and understands what does and does not work.

As far as I am aware Rich has never stated that LKJ can be used combatively.

Regards



Russell


----------



## RHD (Jan 18, 2005)

paulk said:
			
		

> Has any body heard of Sifu Rick Mooney?
> 
> Have a look at the link below, scroll down to the bottom of the screen and select the Rick Mooney Clip titled: -
> 
> ...



What do I think?
I think that as sson as one of these no-touch guys can stop me from smashing them in the head with a baseball bat with their trick that I will start takeing them seriously.  Until then it's crap and proves nothing.

Mike


----------



## kempocat (Dec 7, 2007)

I have personaly had a demonstration from Richard Mooney at his home several years ago as I am a major skeptic with an open mind 
.
and I can tell you that I did feel a push without contact not strong enough to push me over but very real 
.
and after a great deal of meditation and personal exsperiments I also can make you feel a mild push without contact but I find it to be a useless effort for two reasons 1. I do not feel that it has a useful place in battle 2. projecting this chi / energy / force field ect. weakens you and can be harmful unless you have a vast supply
.
never dismiss without investigation I personaly believe in chi and a life force and now that I can feel if mine is strong or weak I can tell you it is something you want to preserve 
.
I will say one thing I admire sifu Mooney for sticking with what he believes 
.
so in summery yes I believe that a person can emitt a force that can be felt by others its not magic its just how our bodys work and interreact and we just dont understand it fully
.
my real name is Keith Bryan feel free to contact me via PM or email


----------



## kempocat (Dec 7, 2007)

any person that has studyed the internal arts can tell you its something that needs to be experienced not explained
.


----------



## Cruentus (Dec 7, 2007)

That's cool. I must be superhuman because NO ONE CAN GET THAT CRAP TO WORK ON ME.

I do say NO ONE. I have maintained this open invitation for years now, and have had a couple of respected Aikido instructors and George Dillman and other DKI people try it on me. It doesn't work. It wouldn't work with Mr. Mooney trying it on me either. There is no "Moving people with your QI." There is only mind games with willing participants. Since I am not a willing participant, it will never work on me.

Why did we revive this dead thread? :idunno:


----------



## Balrog (Dec 8, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> Why did we revive this dead thread? :idunno:


 
I was going to ask that same question.

Possibly so I could post this link, which I'm sure everyone has seen but which bears repeating:


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 8, 2007)

Balrog said:


> I was going to ask that same question.
> 
> Possibly so I could post this link, which I'm sure everyone has seen but which bears repeating:


 
Seen it... many many times before and I was kind of hoping it would go away.

But I have to admit it is both pretty funny and very sad all at the same time.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Dec 8, 2007)

what he said

sad  sad sad  but funny to watch


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2007)

This clip is brought up with monotonous regularity on an MMA site I go on and is always used to 'prove' that TMAs don't work. 
As Cruentus said, why was this thread revived? Sane, logical and experienced martial artists know the chi balls don't exist outside fantasy.
I believe in 'life force' for want of a better word, inner strength, will to live, self belief or whatever. You can lower your blood pressure through self hypnosis/meditation or whatever works for you but I do not believe you can knock someone over by the force of your will/chi/ki whatever.
 I can however make the class stand/sit still or be quiet instantly by using a certain look or tone of voice. Magical? No, RAF officer training lol! Ask any sergeant major or drill instructor! It works just as well on civilians as  it does on military people.


----------



## exile (Dec 8, 2007)

kempocat said:


> any person that has studyed the internal arts can tell you its something that needs to be experienced not explained
> .




Ah yes... alas, this is eventually where all such assertions wind up: basically, in the `it just _is_, you have to experience it, it's beyond explanation' drawer, right next to the `it doesn't work if you don't accept/believe/understand it' file. The fact is, (i) there is nothing remotely like even a shred of evidence under reasonably controlled conditions for the `chi-impact' phenomenon you're claiming exists; and (ii) there are stacks of studies of eyewitness behavior, subjective report reliability and other controlled investigations of the discrepancy between what people think is going on, what they think others are doing, and what they think _they're_ doing which make it clear that such self-reports are almost worthless.

Remember the whole Uri Geller scam from a generation ago? James Randi and other stage magicians replicated Geller's tricks, but far more spectacularly, using clever extensions of standard stage techniques, but the believers insisted that Geller had been doing something else, even though they couldn't say what it was, and even though Geller had&#8212;prior to his career as a born-again psychic&#8212;had a successful career in Israel as a... _stage magician!_ :lol:

People whose livelihoods depend on human gullibility are very adept at persuading us that we're experiencing things which require us to posit something Out There that defies rational explanation. And some of us are more than happy to cooperate with them. It's the bread-and-butter of con artists and purveyors of Things We Don't Understand, and people will go on believing it, regardless of the fact that no replicable demonstrations of these things under controlled conditions can be given. When Geller went on Johnny Carson to strut his stuff, he was a complete bust... because like Geller, Carson too had been a professional stage magician, and instituted a few simple precautions targeting the specific tricks that he was pretty sure, from his own knowledge of the game, that Geller was using. As Cruentus says, this stuff requires committed belief, or considerable general credulity, including the conviction that just because you can talk yourself into believing that you're experiencing something, you really are.

I think back to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who wrote an entire book arguing that fairies actually existed, that there were photographs of them that had been taken by two young girls, and who in an early filmed interview proclaimed that he knew that fairies, pixies and the like existed, _from his own experience_. Of course, later photographic enhancements of the Cottingsly fairies, as they came to be called after the girls' home village, showed the fakery in brilliant detail: bits of cut-out drawing that had been attached to threads and wires. But Conan Doyle was absolutely convinced, to his dying day, that he had seen genuine photographs of fairies, and that the inability of the girls to reproduce photos of fairies when there were people present monitoring the proceedings against fraud was simply the result of the "wee folk" 's aversion to skeptics. Were he alive today and exposed to the right `martial art' circles, he'd have no problem convincing himself that he was experiencing `chi power', I'm sure!


----------



## grydth (Dec 8, 2007)

Balrog said:


> I was going to ask that same question.
> 
> Possibly so I could post this link, which I'm sure everyone has seen but which bears repeating:



What this proves is that believing your own snot will get you killed every time. Reality sometimes packs a very hard right.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 8, 2007)

exile said:


> Ah yes... alas, this is eventually where all such assertions wind up: basically, in the `it just _is_ you have to experience it, it's beyond explanation' drawer, right next to the `it doesn't work if you don't accept/believe/understand it' file. The fact is, (i) there is nothing remotely like even a shred of evidence under reasonably controlled conditions for the `chi-impact' phenomenon you're claiming exists; and (ii) there are stacks of studies of eyewitness behavior, subjective report reliability and other controlled investigations of the discrepancy between what people think is going on, what they think others are doing, and what they think _they're_ doing which make it clear that such self-reports are almost worthless.


 

Well actually exile the reason you are entirely unable to respond to my post at this very moment is because I am using my VAST powers of qi to repel your fingers from your keyboard... I would explain how I do it... but you would not understand...... mainly because to explain it I must speak gibberish in order to explain it properly.....

OK I will let you again touch your keyboard and respond now :asian: :uhyeah:

I could go into the whole story again of the respected CMA guy that had an encounter with one of these guys or I could talk of my experiences with these type of guys that can do such amazing qi stunts but I have done that so many times on MT that I no longer wish to go into it.... suffice to say it all comes down to the same thing.... *they have taught their students how to fall down.*


----------



## exile (Dec 8, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well actually exile the reason you are entirely unable to respond to my post at this very moment is because I am using my VAST powers of qi to repel your fingers from your keyboard... I would explain how I do it... but you would not understand...... mainly because to explain it I must speak gibberish in order to explain it properly.....
> 
> OK I will let you again touch your keyboard and respond now :asian: :uhyeah:



Whoa, dude, you had me really locked up there! :lol:



Xue Sheng said:


> I could go into the whole story again of the respected CMA guy that had an encounter with one of these guys or I could talk of my experiences with these type of guys that can do such amazing qi stunts but I have done that so many times on MT that I no longer wish to go into it.... suffice to say it all comes down to the same thing.... *they have taught their students how to fall down.*



And that's itgame, set and match!

Ask yourselves, you undecided ones, how many times you ever get to see this kind of stunt performed against students from some other school, or a bunch of others schools, as vs. the Chi-demonstrator's own pupils? _EVER??_ How many times have you ever seen this move effectively pulled on known, vocal skeptics? Isn't it just a tad... _troubling_... that what you see, almost without exception, is a demo with the Chi-ter (sorry, I really _couldn't_ resist) being the principal instructor or school operator, and the ukes being...his _students???_. 

No one doubts that there are very interesting psychophysical processes that people with sufficient training can induce when they're in deep meditative states; plenty of research has been carried out under lab conditions that suggest systematic alterations in blood pressure, and blood circulation, in individuals who can attain such states. But nothing about this documentation requires us to posit a novel form of energy; what we're learning is that the nervous system admits a greater degree of conscious guidance than we previously thought, and that there are linkages between mental states and physical processes that are probably mediated by alignment and training of internal rhythmic markers such as breathing. The existence of links between mental and physical phenomena is hardly surprising, even to reductionists who take mental phenomena to be projections of  physiological and biochemical effectsthe shadows thrown by our neurochemical wiring. But if you want to reify `Chi-energy' into something like the flaming balls of `pure force' that Marvel superheroes seem to be particularly good at conjuring up, you better have lots and lots of very hard data to back up that level of extraordinary claim...


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 8, 2007)

exile said:


> Whoa, dude, you had me really locked up there! :lol:


 
DON'T make me have to do that again :mst:




exile said:


> Ask yourselves, you undecided ones, how many times you ever get to see this kind of stunt performed against students from some other school, or a bunch of others schools, as vs. the Chi-demonstrator's own pupils? _EVER??_ How many times have you ever seen this move effectively pulled on known, vocal skeptics? Isn't it just a tad... _troubling_... that what you see, almost without exception, is a demo with the Chi-ter (sorry, I really _couldn't_ resist) being the principal instructor or school operator, and the ukes being...his _students???_.
> 
> No one doubts that there are very interesting psychophysical processes that people with sufficient training can induce when they're in deep meditative states; plenty of research has been carried out under lab conditions that suggest systematic alterations in blood pressure, and blood circulation, in individuals who can attain such states. But nothing about this documentation requires us to posit a novel form of energy; what we're learning is that the nervous system admits a greater degree of conscious guidance than we previously thought, and that there are linkages between mental states and physical processes that are probably mediated by alignment and training of internal rhythmic markers such as breathing. The existence of links between mental and physical phenomena is hardly surprising, even to reductionists who take mental phenomena to be projections of physiological and biochemical effectsthe shadows thrown by our neurochemical wiring. But if you want to reify `Chi-energy' into something like the flaming balls of `pure force' that Marvel superheroes seem to be particularly good at conjuring up, you better have lots and lots of very hard data to back up that level of extraordinary claim...


 
Agreed

And I have one last comment.

I do not know about now but a few years back the Qigong department of the Beijing University of Traditional Chinese medicine said that the majority of the people out there demonstrating Internal Qi energy (in the manor that has been shown in clip after clip after clip here on MT aka the no touch knockout) are fake. They also said that there was currently no way to measure internal Qi but they were working on a way to measure it. As far as I know they have not been successful as of yet, if they are even still working on it.


----------



## tellner (Dec 8, 2007)

How do you measure something that isn't there? :disgust:


----------



## kempocat (Dec 9, 2007)

kempocat said:


> any person that has studyed the internal arts can tell you its something that needs to be experienced not explained
> .



-----------------------------------
this topic is almost always fruitless but I still comment on it every now and then because it is so very interesting to me 
.
I would be making the same comments as most of you if it were not for my own personal investigation
.
please allow me to ask a slightly off track question
have any of you ever felt a feeling in your hands that felt like your hands were two repeling magnets? 
.
thank you Keith Bryan


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 9, 2007)

kempocat said:


> -----------------------------------
> this topic is almost always fruitless but I still comment on it every now and then because it is so very interesting to me
> .
> I would be making the same comments as most of you if it were not for my own personal investigation
> ...


 
No


----------



## exile (Dec 9, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> No



Me neither, Tez...



kempocat said:


> -----------------------------------
> I would be making the same comments as most of you if it were not for my own personal investigation.



Look... the whole point, kempocat, is that the direct evidence of your senses is not in itself necessarily evidence forlet alone confirmation ofa particular externally real state of affairs. We know that you can experience sensations that seem to correspond to some event you're involved in which we can show is _not_ happening. What you experience subjectively can be vastly different  from what's really happening to you, but you mayespecially in an uncontrolled situation with no external monitoringnot be able to recognize this.

It's an old problem. Look at what's probably the classic example of this dilemma in literature: Shakespeare's Hamlet. He sees a ghost, pursues it, and get the information from it that it's his father's ghost, that his father was murdered by his uncle, and that the ghost wants Hamlet to avenge his death (i.e., kill his uncle). Now what the hell do you do when you get a summons like that?? Hamlet dislikes his uncle intenselly _anyway_, but does he just go off and skewer his father's brother (who is also his new stepfather)? Hamlet reminds Horatio, just as you are trying to tell us, that `there are more things in heaven and earth/Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.' Sure, _but he doesn't stop there!_ Notice what _else_ he says:

_ The spirit that I have seen
May be a devil; and the devil hath power
T'assume a pleasing shape; yea, and perhaps
Out of my weakness and my melancholy,
As he is very potent with such spirits,
Abuses me to damn me. *I'll have grounds
More relative than this.*​_
(my emphasis; `relative' here is understood to mean `well-founded'). Hamlet would love nothing better than to believe that his uncle is a murderer, but he knows that his fixated contempt for his uncle, leading to `my weakness and my melancholy', may make him vulnerable to deception. Even though he _wants_ to believe the ghost, he insists on testing his vision, via the famous Mousetrap play-within-a-play, to see if Claudius himself gives the game away. Hamlet is here the supreme rational skeptic, well aware that his own `personal investigation', as you put it, is insufficient: he has to have _im_personal proof that what he's experienced isn't a cruel illusion. 

So this question is nothing new, and the issues haven't changed. Your subjective conviction that something has happened along the lines you believe is no guarantee whatever that it actually has happened like that. We're all too prone to take our experiences literally, and not step back, as Hamlet does, and demand something harder in the way of proof.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 9, 2007)

My instructor has been doing martial arts for about thirty five years, he's a fighter, he does martial arts to fight whether its as a close protection officer, or when he was spec forces or doing the doors or in the ring/cage, car parks etc. He's looked at many martial arts, trained in quite a few and taken as many weapons as he can from them. If Chi as in chucking balls of it at people and knocking them down existed he would surely be doing it. . . . . he isn't. And how much easier would it be to knock people down from a distance than actually having to punch them? If it worked don't you think that it wouldn't be a secret anymore? Governments are always looking for 'secret' weapons, ways to protect presidents, prime ministers  etc. If it worked we would be seeing it.
I'm afraid any magnetism I feel is usually in the company of attractive men !


----------



## kempocat (Dec 9, 2007)

thanks for your honest answer (NO)
has anyone else? I have and I can tell you that the stronger I feel the stronger the sensation if I am angry I can not produce this feeling 
.
I have transfered this feeling or push to others but have found that doing so makes me feel weak
.
I have nothing to gain by sharing this I am not an instructor and I am not selling anything I am just sharing my experience on this subject 
.
I am in no way saying that this could be used to defend but I have been told it can be also I am in no way saying this can be used to heal others but I have been told it can 
.
I am only sharing what I have proved to my self
I remember the first time my body emitted this very mild repeling force I couldnt believe it I thought I was amagining it or my joints were stiff so I continued to exsperiment  for years Im not  asking you to believe Im just telling you I do
.
I think that while it may be true that Mr. Mooneys students are somewhat conditioned to fall or be pushed back out of respect. I also firmly believe that richard mooney has the same ability that I do but much stronger if you were to ask him about the first time he discovered this ability I think he would also tell you how suprized he was too
.
now if you havent felt this repeling force Im sure it sounds like some type of deception 
.
I think everyone can produce this feeling but very few will take the time to try


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 9, 2007)

Is there something to some forms of chi-energy?  Sure.  Accupuncture and accupressure can be shown to have a definite effect, in some specific cases.

And I've felt what I'll call "pulling" from someone, and can even occasionally manage to do it myself.  Is it some sort of energy, or is it just some how suggesting to the other person that they're being pulled?  I don't know.  And... it's not exactly real useful for fighting.  The pull is maybe enough to make the subject lean/roll a hair...  Not unbalance them.  And I've felt someone project warmth (a few degrees)...  Again, unless giving someone a slightly flush is combat effective, there's no real fighting application that I'm aware of.

But there is definitely a human ability to sense human intent and focus; most people I know have had that crawly "I'm being watched" feeling.  Or been in an argument with someone where their anger/glare was so intense it almost felt like a punch.


----------



## Sukerkin (Dec 9, 2007)

*Kempo*, I'm sure that a thousand of us telling you otherwise will not change your mind one whit with your present frame of reference.  But that does not mean that I do not wish you to re-think.

Ki exists, yes, I agree.  But it is a way in which the conscious mind is tricked by itself into overcoming physical limits that are imposed by previous experience.  This means that I learnt how to stick my fist through a board that I had thought unbreakable or that I was able to throw a friend of mine, twice my size, across the room from a kneeling position.  It does not mean that I can now summon up Mystical-Chi to blast my opponents with.

I concur that there are things that surround us that we do not yet understand, which is why altho' I may have more or less closed the book on the existence of God, I do not discount the influence of flows of energy (electrical, magnetic or other) on how we think, feel and behave.  But they are subtle changes on the energy states of neurons in the brain, not an emission of power that can actually be felt by another.  The amount of energy required to produce a physical external effect on someone is very large compared to that necessary to adjust the outcome of a sequence of chemical energy exchanges in the brain.

I don't like to be blunt when talking about something that a person obviously seriously believes (unless it happens to be insane reactions to naming a teddy bear) so I shall leave it at the wish that you think again and the hope that you haven't been spending lots of money on such training.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 9, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> *Kempo*, I'm sure that a thousand of us telling you otherwise will not change your mind one whit with your present frame of reference. But that does not mean that I do not wish you to re-think.
> 
> Ki exists, yes, I agree. But it is a way in which the conscious mind is tricked by itself into overcoming physical limits that are imposed by previous experience. This means that I learnt how to stick my fist through a board that I had thought unbreakable or that I was able to throw a friend of mine, twice my size, across the room from a kneeling position. It does not mean that I can now summon up Mystical-Chi to blast my opponents with.
> 
> ...


 
Well said :asian:

I too believe that Qi (Chinese word) exists but I have serious doubts when it comes to the projection of Qi outside of ones self.


----------



## kempocat (Dec 9, 2007)

I respect that you feel that I have convinced my self of something that is not possible in your minds
.
but I ask that you leave a small portion of your mind open to things that you have have not yet expeienced
.
I wish you all well
Keith Bryan


----------



## tellner (Dec 9, 2007)

"We should believe in anything" does not follow from "We don't know everything." There are tools and principles for investigating the unknown. Believing things because we want them to be true is not one of the better ones. When it is compounded by wanting to believe them because it means we are part of some special Elect wishful thinking is compounded by admitted bias and egotism. 

And that is just plain stupid.


----------



## exile (Dec 9, 2007)

kempocat, what Tellner, Sukerkin, jks and I  have been trying to tell you, using different analogies and lines of argument, is something very basic about coming to conclusions on the basis of evidence and experience. 

For example, say you subconsciously register certain facts about the environment around you which add up to something not being quite right. So you behave more carefully than you might have done, and it turns out that you were right: a really violent fight between two groups breaks out right next to you, and because you've been expecting it, you're able to get under cover quickly while other passers-by get injured in the violence. Now you can say, ah, there it is, proof that there _is_ foreknowledge, or clairvoyance, or whatever. Look, I _experienced_ it! But the fact is, you haven't. What you experienced was the sudden, unexpected awareness of danger in the absence of consciously received information about that danger. But that isn't the same as the mystical/magical/psychic power many people would attribute your experience _to_, and the fact is, we know that people absorb and process information _sub_consciously that often leads them to correct deductions. 

Do you see what I'm saying? There are two different things going on: one, your possession of a certain sense of imminent danger; the other your explanation of that sense of danger. You can attribute that knowledge to ESP, or divine intervention, or any number of things, but the fact of your experience doesn't in itself explain that experience. It's merely the data; the explanation has to be arrived at by reasonining, and factual evidence. 

There's a general rule you may have heard: extraordinary claims demand correspondingly extraordinary levels of proof. Given that we have tons of evidence that people are able to observe tiny discrpancies in the expected course of situations as they develop, and make rapid and unconsious inferences based on those observations, there is no motivation for attributing your sense of imminent danger in my imagined example to `psy power', when your normal functioning awareness of how things should be and when they aren't going that way accounts perfectly for that danger sense. If we have independent reason to believe that the earth revolves around the sun and the moon around the earth, then why would we imagine an eclipse to arise from a gigantic wolf periodically devouring and then regurgitating the moon, when our best astronomical models already tell us  the circumstances under which such events will take place, and exactly when they will? 

What we are trying to tell you is that you are opting for an extremely unlikely solution when there any number of far more conventional pictures of what goes on that can account for what you've experienced (look at jks' post for a plausible suggestion). The important point, in terms of what you've been saying, is that your experiences do not in themselves provide any _evidence_ that chi-ball pie fights ever really take place.  Those experiences mere constitute evidence that _something_ gave rise to certain perceptions on your part. You don't know what those are, and there are far more likely sources for them than a novel, inexplicable form of `energy'. It would be nice, maybe, to live in a magical universe, but unfortunately, it doesn't look as though that's what we've got....


----------



## kempocat (Dec 10, 2007)

please read this carefuly
your references to chi ball fights and other kung fu theater fantasy have no place here and only serve to insult
.
what I am telling you also has nothing to do with fighting or defending 
.
(I can feel one hand repel the other and this mimics magnetics) here is my personal thoughts on this the body operates using electrical signals and these signals are controled by your mind so if you take the time to bring your attention to your palms and relax with given enough practice you will be able to direct your bodys electrical signals to your hands . now I need you to understand that any time current is flowing through a conductor it will produce a magnetic field the more current the stronger the field . now seeing as how each hand is producing its own bio electrical field they will repel each other somewhat
.
it is interesting to me that they do not ever attract each other but I can tell you that each palm behaves just as apposing magnets would if they are not lined up they tend to slip off each other 
.
I believe this is nothing more than the bodys bio electrical field .  
.
I wish you all knew me better you would know that I am a very logic based skeptic and a realist for example I reject all the pretty dance steps used in some arts that have nothing to do with attacking or defending I also reject silk gi's and any other ego based item and I believe the belt systems only purpose is for children as a reward and for school owners as a way to generate income . but I am getting a little off track here for a living I am a mechanic and I currently build and test cryogenic rocket engines and components for the space program so I do understand how to conduct experiments and isolate what is real and what is not using a series of controls
.
please do not dismis without investigation I invite you to try chi gung metitation after a while I am confident that you will be able to feel your own bodys electro magnetic field too
.
it is always uncomfortable discussing this topic but I find it to be very interesting 
.
Enjoy


----------



## Sukerkin (Dec 10, 2007)

I think perhaps part of the reason why you might feel a little embattled on this is the plain and simple fact that we *don't* know you and your initial posts have been tied to a subject that is seen to reside in the "Bad Reputation" area of martial arts.  

So please don't feel too personally assailed when a number of posts of the "Don't be daft!" ilk appear.  It is not the messenger but the message that is being held in low regard.

I've read what you've said again and I see that you are not actually advocating the veracity of telekinetic martial arts but rather a heightened state of awareness of your own senses.  Nothing too controversial in that - it's analagous to the sensation you get when you close your eyes and bring a pen or pencil close to the location of the so-called Third Eye in the middle of the forehead.  Come to that, it's part and parcel of zanshin, as *Exile* touched on previously.

I don't personally believe that the sensation you report is attributable to the cause you cite but it doesn't hurt anyone else if you choose to believe it and you don't seem to be trying a "Snake Oil" sell to make money out of it, so I see no cause to upbraid you for such views (not that I would necessarily have a right to do that in the first place of course ).

However, for a practical analysis of the topic, the energy levels involved are so low that I suspect the energy required for the senses to operate to try and detect it would be overwhelming the 'field' anyway.  We all operate on electrical energy when it comes down to it and all emit and are affected by magnetic fields as a consequence of that.  To try and 'feel' your own magnetic field by using the very sensors that create that field in part does not 'work' for me.  

The fields that surround the 400kV SGT's I work around on the other hand ...


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist (Dec 10, 2007)

I think the problem here lays in defination of what Qi is.
I see people who say it does not exist based on THEIR defination.
As I have said this before Qi is just energy. The problem lays in people get definations of Qi mixed up and lump it all together. Qi is not a mystical force. For example Tian Qi meaning Heaven Qi sounds mystical however it can simply mean Mist or weather conditions like pressure drop or humidity. The same idea goes with humans,animals etc, etc. There really is no need to prove something biological can produce energy I think science has already figured that out and a person already knows by simple everyday activity. Somethings that are very natural can not be explained by scienctific methods YET. If we look at history many examples that were thought to be untrue or false turned out to be true because of break thrus in modern times. But skeptics will always remain skeptic if they choose to be and those who believe will believe as long as they want to believe. That is all I have to say on this thread I am sure someone will make quotes and speak their thoughts but I will not respond I see no point people have already made up their mind.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 10, 2007)

kempocat said:


> I respect that you feel that I have convinced my self of something that is not possible in your minds
> but I ask that you leave a small portion of your mind open to things that you have have not yet expeienced.
> I wish you all well
> Keith Bryan



My mind is very open to possibility and to be honest I would love to find someone that can demonstrate what you are talking about but my personal experience after having multiple people tell me they can do this and then showing me what they can do has told me that it is not likely. I have trained taiji for years and that seems to bring in all sorts of people that claim all sorts of ability that has yet to be proven by example.



kempocat said:


> please read this carefuly
> your references to chi ball fights and other kung fu theater fantasy have no place here and only serve to insult



You also have to take into account you are dealing with a lot of people here with a lot of experience. If anything I have said was taken as an insult believe me none was intended. But as a response the first line "please read this carefully" could also be taken as condescending, although I had no problem with it this is an example of interpretation issues when you are on a webpage reading posts



kempocat said:


> (I can feel one hand repel the other and this mimics magnetics) here is my personal thoughts on this the body operates using electrical signals and these signals are controled by your mind so if you take the time to bring your attention to your palms and relax with given enough practice you will be able to direct your bodys electrical signals to your hands . now I need you to understand that any time current is flowing through a conductor it will produce a magnetic field the more current the stronger the field . now seeing as how each hand is producing its own bio electrical field they will repel each other somewhat
> .
> it is interesting to me that they do not ever attract each other but I can tell you that each palm behaves just as apposing magnets would if they are not lined up they tend to slip off each other



I understand electrical theory but as I said, I have yet to have someone actually demonstrate this.



kempocat said:


> I believe this is nothing more than the bodys bio electrical field .



This is not an original thought you are far from alone here. Dr Yang Jwing Ming has written multiple books on this and pretty much is saying the same thing. But then again so are multiple TCM OMDs in China. 



kempocat said:


> I wish you all knew me better you would know that I am a very logic based skeptic and a realist for example I reject all the pretty dance steps used in some arts that have nothing to do with attacking or defending I also reject silk gi's and any other ego based item and I believe the belt systems only purpose is for children as a reward and for school owners as a way to generate income . but I am getting a little off track here for a living I am a mechanic and I currently build and test cryogenic rocket engines and components for the space program so I do understand how to conduct experiments and isolate what is real and what is not using a series of controls



I am not exactly sure what building and testing cryogenic rocket engines and components for the space program has to do with the study of Qi but ok, thanks for sharing. 

I do not build and test cryogenic rocket engines and components for the space program but I have been training martial arts for over 30 years and part of that has been made up of the study of Qigong.



kempocat said:


> please do not dismis without investigation I invite you to try chi gung metitation after a while I am confident that you will be able to feel your own bodys electro magnetic field too



You are assuming that none of us train Qigong (and the pinying spelling that a Chinese person would understand is qigong not chi gung - sorry it is a pet peeve of mine to use pinyin when discussing things Chinese) I have had 3 different Qigong teachers and the CMA styles I train (except 1 - Sanda) are considered internal (taijiquan, Xingyiquan) so Qi is a big part of that training ( I have trained Taiji the longest) and I have not yet felt what you are describing and experience has told me that it is more or less fake and those that claim they have felt it are those that really really want to feel it. But, to be honest, I would really like to be proven wrong, most unfortunately I have not yet been proven wrong.

I wish you all the best in your pursuit of Qigong and I sincerely hope you are correct in what youre describing but experience has told me that it is not likely.


----------



## exile (Dec 10, 2007)

kempocat said:


> please read this carefuly
> your references to chi ball fights and other kung fu theater fantasy have no place here and only serve to insult


.

I am reading this carefully, and the physics you describe makes kung fu theatre family look _normal_.



kempocat said:


> what I am telling you also has nothing to do with fighting or defending
> .
> (I can feel one hand repel the other and this mimics magnetics) here is my personal thoughts on this the body operates using electrical signals and these signals are controled by your mind



No. Your mind does not control electrical signals. There is not the slightest evidence that conscious (or unconscious) thought can affect the propagation of electrical charge through any medium. No&#8212;evidence&#8212;at all. What you describe has never been demonstrated, and is based on essentially magical thinking: that a mental operation performed on an image of a thing affects the thing itself&#8212;in this case, a current flow.

Tell you what: try directing electrical current to your fingers, get hold of a light bulb, and get the light bulb to light up. Or the business end of a voltmeter. Or any other device where a current of a certain strength can register some measurement via calibration on the device reflecting the strength of any current the device is exposed to. If you can do this, under replicable conditions, in front of people who don't necessarily _want_ you to succeed, then we have something to talk about in connection with `signals... controled [sic] by your mind'.




kempocat said:


> so if you take the time to bring your attention to your palms and relax with given enough practice you will be able to direct your bodys electrical signals to your hands . now I need you to understand that any time current is flowing through a conductor it will produce a magnetic field the more current the stronger the field . now seeing as how each hand is producing its own bio electrical field they will repel each other somewhat



I'm aware of the electrodynamics involved. And again, I would like you to try doing what you describe so that you can actually move some iron filings into a pattern that reflects the lines of force generated by the `magnetic field' you seem to think will be created by this exercise in mental visualization. Go ahead: try to control the motion of a paperclip with this `magnetic field'. Get some acquaintances of yours who you regard as moderately skeptical and show them how you can generated a magnetic field with just your mind, which will move a papter clip&#8212;or even some iron dust&#8212;around on a white piece of paper. Again, if you can't do that, then we have nothing to talk about.
.


kempocat said:


> I wish you all knew me better you would know that I am a very logic based skeptic and a realist for example I reject all the pretty dance steps used in some arts that have nothing to do with attacking or defending I also reject silk gi's and any other ego based item and I believe the belt systems only purpose is for children as a reward and for school owners as a way to generate income . but I am getting a little off track here for a living I am a mechanic and I currently build and test cryogenic rocket engines and components for the space program so I do understand how to conduct experiments and isolate what is real and what is not using a series of controls



Then presumably you understand that what I'm asking is just the minimal level of evidence anyone would have the right to expect you to provide to get your claims taken seriously.
Create a magnetic field by controlling your internal body current flow, and show it exists by moving iron filings into lines of force corresponding to the field. Can you do this?


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2007)

Could one turn off the body's electricity and stop shark attacks then?

What? Stop laughing at me you lot! :jaws:


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 10, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Could one turn off the body's electricity and stop shark attacks then?
> 
> What? Stop laughing at me you lot! :jaws:


 
Well no.... but a shark can :uhyeah:


----------



## kempocat (Dec 10, 2007)

you are all correct on many points
I do not have a long history on this forum and I selected a very contaversal subject and a thread about a person that is not generaly respected by most. so a careful mind might think I was sent here to defend this subject 
.
but if you do a search of my posts you will see that I posted only about subjects I that I have some experience with. as a matter of fact I had to do a search to find these subjects
1. a question about Rich Alea's and his Kempo school
2. a question about CHA3 Hawaiian Kenpo
3. and of course this subject about Richard Mooney that I only met once about 12 or so years ago and was invited to his house for a free demo.
.
if you all have been in Martial arts for a long time then you NO dought know their are a lot of extreme people and down right nut cases and crooks and misguided people 
.
I am not one of those people. I speak from the heart I truley am suprized that no student has come to any of you to ask about this feeling 
.
LOL maybe I am crazy 
after all how could a crazy person ever know he was sane or not if crazy is all he knows
at least when you are dreaming you can compare it to when you think you are awake
.
"your world is in your mind change your mind and change your world" KB2
.
I am going to move on to a different subject
thank you for your input
Keith Bryan
zoocheetah@webtv.net


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2007)

I think that resurrecting long deceased threads is perhaps not the best way forward, it would be more interesting if you posted something of your own. I realise you were being careful and not diving in feet first and I'm sorry if perhaps we haven't taken it as seriously as you would have preferred. I'm positive you have a lot to offer and your views are very welcome on all subjects so please don't let any comments put you off!
I get very flip sometimes, put it down to my English sense of humour, it's an acquired taste lol!
I've done karate for a long time and now I do MMA, I'm afraid MMA fighters aren't likely to have experienced anything other than GnP, arm and legs locks etc. They're big into heavy hitting lol


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 10, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I think that resurrecting long deceased threads is perhaps not the best way forward, it would be more interesting if you posted something of your own.



agreed



Tez3 said:


> I've done karate for a long time and now I do MMA, I'm afraid MMA fighters aren't likely to have experienced anything other than GnP, arm and legs locks etc. They're big into heavy hitting lol


 
That figures..... MMA heavy hitters... :boxing: you would never catch a SANDA guy with that attitude :mst: (cut to Xue Sheng hitting a tree:EG: ) :uhyeah:


----------



## Cruentus (Dec 10, 2007)

kempocat said:


> I respect that you feel that I have convinced my self of something that is not possible in your minds
> .
> but I ask that you leave a small portion of your mind open to things that you have have not yet expeienced
> .
> ...


 
Folks; unfortunatily we will never convince the "true believer." Convincing Mr. Bryan of reality in this case would be like telling someone who believes that Jonathan Edwards talked to her dead grandpa that he just did a cold reading. When people are unwilling to look at objective reality, it is impossible to reason with them because they are not willing to start from the same objective viewpoint as you.

That said, this is a common response.  It represents an egocentric arrogence that the true believer likes to present. Somehow, with the decades of compiled martial arts exprience that we have on this thread alone, "We need to keep our mind open to things we haven't experienced..."

Look dude. I have been doing this for well over 2 decades. I have sincerely looked into CHI/KI, and what it can do, and what its limits are. I have sincerely looked into masters who have claimed to be able to do no-touch work, met with them, and have had them attempt to do their feats on me. However, I am not a "true believer" so it never, NEVER works on me.

Thats it. I ALWAYS have an open, but objective mind. No touch feats of Ki/Chi as presented by Mooney and Dillman are nothing more then stage hypnosis/magic at work.

C.


----------



## Mariachi50 (Dec 13, 2007)

i agree with Xue Sheng......


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei (Dec 13, 2007)

I can use my KI to open and start my car.

I'm even more impressed with my friend whose minivan has KI-less entry with No Touch side doors and trunk.

_Don Flatt


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 13, 2007)

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> I can use my KI to open and start my car.
> 
> I'm even more impressed with my friend whose minivan has KI-less entry with No Touch side doors and trunk.
> 
> _Don Flatt


 
NOT "KI"..."CHI"...... which one of the translations of is "to eat" and I am still trying to figure out what eating has to do with ANY of this :uhyeah:


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei (Dec 13, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> NOT "KI"..."CHI"...... which one of the translations of is "to eat" and I am still trying to figure out what eating has to do with ANY of this :uhyeah:


 
I practice a Japanese Martial Art so I use the Japanese word "KI" to say energy not "CHI".  BTW if you don't eat you won't have energy and it might make you susceptable to being moved without being touched.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 13, 2007)

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> I practice a Japanese Martial Art so I use the Japanese word "KI" to say energy not "CHI". BTW if you don't eat you won't have energy and it might make you susceptable to being moved without being touched.


 

ahhh now I understand. thanks 

I thought you trained Japanese martial arts by your use of Ki. I train Chinese martial arts and it is spelled Qi not Chi that is why I was wondering what eating had to do with it.


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei (Dec 13, 2007)

My conversation with Xue made me realize that some who practice Chinese Martial Arts may not have understood this post.



Kosho Gakkusei said:


> I can use my KI to open and start my car.
> 
> I'm even more impressed with my friend whose minivan has KI-less entry with No Touch side doors and trunk.


 
Let me try to rephrase it for you CMA folks.

I can use my "QI" to open and start my car but I'm even more impressed with friend who can enter his minivan in a no touch fashion called "QI"-less entry.

_Don Flatt


----------



## bigfootsquatch (Dec 13, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afBENV1V4kI&feature=related

THAT, my friends, is a no touch knockout!


----------



## bigfootsquatch (Dec 13, 2007)

arnisador said:


> Let me be clear: Anyone who believes this type of thing deserves to have their money taken by these people.


:asian: I agree wholeheartedly. No touch knockout bs is just one more reason for people make jokes and laugh at martial arts.


----------



## tempus (Dec 14, 2007)

In the Aikido classes I go to we do practice key techniques (there are 15 total).  To me it is the law of physics or redirection of energy.  For example is someone is pushing on you and start bending at the knees it is harder for that person to move you, etc...  If you drop your "energy" downward it is hard to lift you.  Like when you try to grab a screaming 2 year old and they seem to be stuck to the floor and as you try to pick them up there body is kind of limp and it becomes harder to pick them up.

With that said all the techniaues require someone pushing or pulling on you.  No 6ft knock outs.  Althought that would be cool!  Then I could wear my darth vader halloween outfit all the time.  (Did I just show part of my geekness)


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2007)

I know it as Ki too. Could these no touch knock outs be in fact a very bad case of halitosis? I have meet people whose breath can knock you down at five hundred paces!


----------



## David_Gilbert (Sep 1, 2008)

I don't believe in CHI, in the way that you can knock off some body.


----------



## Svart (Sep 2, 2008)

David Gilbert - Thread Rez Extraordinaire


----------



## Mike Hamer (Sep 2, 2008)

It would be cool if it were real, but unfortunatley I believe its a load of crap


----------



## tshadowchaser (Sep 2, 2008)

I have often  wondered how many spectators really believe what they witness when seeing people do no touch techniques. Do they fall for these demonstrations and are they filled with Awe at the mysterious energy of the master, or do they scoff and tell their friends and family what a bunch of Bull the martial arts are , after seeing such a demo


----------



## Ninjamom (Sep 2, 2008)

Svart said:


> David Gilbert - Thread Rez Extraordinaire


 
Nice title.  But I prefer "Thread Necromancer", or perhaps "King of the Undead Zombie Posts"








.


----------



## Josh Oakley (Sep 2, 2008)

tonbo said:


> Oh, boy......
> 
> Yeah, same thing with guys like Uri Geller and a whole host of other "psychics".
> 
> ...


 

Actually he ended up increasing it to a million dollars. but it ended last month. He claimed in Skeptic magazine that after 20 some-odd years, he can safely say he's proven his point.


----------



## Josh Oakley (Sep 2, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> NOT "KI"..."CHI"...... which one of the translations of is "to eat" and I am still trying to figure out what eating has to do with ANY of this :uhyeah:


 
The primary translation is "breath", according to my Chinese Friends.


----------



## Cirdan (Sep 3, 2008)

Josh Oakley said:


> The primary translation is "breath", according to my Chinese Friends.


 
Hmm suddenly it makes perfect sense.. release your "ki" and voila, no-touch ranged bad breath knockouts!


----------



## kaizasosei (Sep 3, 2008)

moving others without physical contact is a natural thing for the human being.  For the most part the medium used to move  is verbal, or bodily yet without actual contact.  However, at the core of the phenomenon, there is something that some people call magnetism.  
this magnitism is a natural thing and all beings have it to some  degree.  many may disagree and claim that the effect of such magnetism is dependant of actual physical stimuli and conincidences.  however many advanced professionals in a variety of different fields recognize such aspects of our being.  

question is though, can the magnetism be made stronger.  the answer is yes, most naturally it can.  
 yoga, pilates and practically every martial art and sport on the planet will have a vitalizing effect on a body when practiced.-
  because the effects of such a kind of magnetic type of phenomenon also have much to do with mental states of mind, technically, a strong emergency or unusual state of mind alone can affect someones physical state as well as the 'energy' they release unto others.  

i myself believe in certain techniques to stregthen the ki through the body.  i have found that there truly is a form of invisible authority in the manifestation of virtue and that no art can be learned without resolution of mind, inspiration and innovation.   Ultimately it is a fact that we are always creating our destiny and our actions are at some level affecting our future state.   so if we achieve a favorable state of mind, we should be grateful and happy.  taichi and chigung focus specifically on the energy system of body and mind.  how clear is that?  alas, the stars hid in the sun and the light became hidden in the light...

i mean yoga is good for you and some say that you can achieve many different kinds of superpowers through certain types of exercises-  you'll never know if you dont do it -not even reap the most certain benefits of flexibility and health.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 3, 2008)

Josh Oakley said:


> The primary translation is "breath", according to my Chinese Friends.


 
But if you are using pinyin (and I always do) it is spelled Qi not chi if you are talking the training of Qi or Ki (Japanese) in things like Qigong, and I always use pinyin. If you are using pinyin and spell it Chi one of the translations, depending on inflection it means to eat. 

I get this from my studying of the language, Chinese friends, a couple Chinese Sifus and my wife and her family who are from North China. 

In Wade Giles it is possible that Chi means exactly that and if your friend is older and from South China, mainly Hong Kong, they would likely use Wade Giles more than pinyin

While we are at it Tai Chi Chuan in Pinyin is Taijiquan and you will also see that I always type Taijiquan because I translate ALL Chinese to pinyin not Wade Giles or any other system that is out there. And the constant back and forth between the spelling systems REALLY bugs, as I said it is a pet peeve of mine and I tend to apologize for it in advance of comment.

Note

Mandarin: "Qi" is pronounced Chee, and "Chi" is pronounced Chrr


----------

