# Presas Arnis



## Dan Anderson

Tim,

I've noticed your signatory is _Presas Arnis_ and in the Modern Arnis Minute segment #4 your belt has two very broad stripes on it, which is the same as what SGM Ed Parker used to denote 10th Dan.

Could you give us a rundown of what _Presas Arnis_ is and how it differs from Remy Presas Modern Arnis?

Thanks,
Dan Anderson


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## hardheadjarhead

Dan,

Presas Arnis is a synthesis of Modern Arnis, Kombatan, Balintawak, and (to a much lesser extent), Bando and other arts that influenced the WMAA curriculum.  

Regards,

Steve


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## Dan Anderson

Thank you.

Dan


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## Dan Anderson

Steve,

Is that a Kenpo style 10th dan belt he's wearing in the Modern Arnis Minute clips?

Dan


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## hardheadjarhead

Dan,

I don't know, not being a Kenpo practitioner. 


Regards,


Steve


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## Bob Hubbard

Dan & Steve,
 Yes, I believe it is or is similar.  See http://www.kenpokarate.ie/photo_album/fullimages/Ed_Downey_and_Ed_Parker_1981.jpg for Ed Parker Sr. wearing the same style belt.


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## Dan Anderson

Bob,

Similarity in belt = similarity in rank?

Dan


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## hardheadjarhead

Dan,

Correct.  You'll recall Tim talked to you about this in March.  


Regards,


Steve


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## Bob Hubbard

Belt question would have taken 5 minutes on the phone you know.

"Tim? Yeah, this is Dan. I was watching your videos and saw your belt. That a kenpo 10th? It is? Hey great, how much to get me one with my name embroidered on it?"

Simple, quick, and you might get a discount even.  Ok, probably not, but hey.


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## Dieter

So is Tim now 10th Dan Kenpo or 10th Dan Presas Arnis?

Thanks  

Dieter


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## Dan Anderson

We did talk about on the phone but he never announced anything after the WMAA camp as he told back in March.  We are mid personal (not camp related) issues currently so the phone comm has been kept to a bare minimum.  Also, I was curious if he would answer himself or leave it to someone else.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Bob Hubbard

I'd guess 10th Presas Arnis. He mentioned a bunch of stuff at the camp, but hasn't sent me much update wise for the websites so, I've had nothing to put out on my end.  He might have said something on FMATalk, but I don't recall.  You guys can sort the rank/politic stuff out, I just do websites and take pictures these days.


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## Guro Harold

Here were the two threads from what I recall about the 9th degree promotion.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64374&highlight=ernesto
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49677&highlight=hartman+philippines


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## Dan Anderson

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'd guess 10th Presas Arnis. He mentioned a bunch of stuff at the camp, but hasn't sent me much update wise for the websites so, I've had nothing to put out on my end.  He might have said something on FMATalk, but I don't recall.  You guys can sort the rank/politic stuff out, I just do websites and take pictures these days.


No politics intended.  Just get curious when I see it on the site (Presas Arnis as opposed to Modern Arnis) and then see the belt on the Modern Arnis Minute (as his 7th & 9th) were done Kenpo karate style.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Dan Anderson

Got my question answered.  I started this back in November.  It took a while.

_http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=182725278426628

Grandmaster Datu Tim Hartman 10th Dan Presas Arnis _

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Carol

*shrug* 

Or, as Bob said, the questions could have been answered with a 5 minute phone call.


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## Dan Anderson

Carol,

I already knew.  I got my personal answer on the phone last summer. The time lag and source of the answer as well as how long it took to get an _online_ answer _in print_ was interesting.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Bob Hubbard

Me personally, I'm just amused by the concern over ranks, but then again, as I'm both the founder and 33rd Grandmaster of Kungate, it all amuses me.


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## Guro Harold

Bob Hubbard said:


> Me personally, I'm just amused by the concern over ranks, but then again, as I'm both the founder and 33rd Grandmaster of Kungate, it all amuses me.


Bob, I do consider MT a credible peer review source. That is why in the past I posted my promotion announcements on this site in the past.

Others have done so as well.

It's a personal choice but I do believe that using avenues for peer review and allowing others to review and comment provides healthy dialog.


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## Guro Harold

In my opinion, things should cut both ways.

There was a thread concerning questions regarding Dan's Modern Arnis 80 on this board in which Datu Tim participated in.

It's not like Datu Tim hasn't posted on this site recently.

Again, I am not into politics, and good for Mr. Hartman if he has achieved this rank, but imho, a public title does invite public questions, just as long as they are not personal or too subjective. I also feel MT can be a source for professional peer discussions similar like a "Journal of Medicine" and such.


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## Bob Hubbard

> I also feel MT can be a source for professional peer discussions similar like a "Journal of Medicine" and such.


I'm fine with that.

In fact, I think that's in the mission statement.


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## Guro Harold

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'm fine with that.
> 
> In fact, I think that's in the mission statement.


Great!

Therefore, I think all of us need to take a step back and treat the FMA/MA forums like that.

Let's not assume that person A knows and can ask person B regarding an item if it is public in nature. I am sure that Dan and Tim have been knowing each other longer than some of us have be training. However, as far as this forum, its ok for Dan, or as Tim has done previously, ask professional questions regarding public titles.

Concerning questioning motives - Basically, it doesn't matter as to what motive a person has when they pursue a professional question, only that was the question asked in a professional and thoughtful manner.

Accessibility - If you make yourself accessible enough to plug a seminar or product on this board, then please consider representing yourself when questions are asked as well.

These are, of course, my personal opinions but it comes from professional experiences and the desire for MT to continue its development as an avenue for friendly and professional Martial Arts discussion.


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## Bob Hubbard

Harold,
 They can ask all the professional questions they want.
Discuss all the techniques they like.

Be nice if there was some of that, to balance out the seminar announcements and book plugs.

But We will not allow the game playing, and they all know that we can smell it when it's there. 

Enjoy.


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## Dan Anderson

Bob Hubbard said:


> Harold,
> They can ask all the professional questions they want.
> Discuss all the techniques they like.
> 1.  Be nice if there was some of that, to balance out the seminar announcements and book plugs.
> 2.  But We will not allow the game playing, and they all know that we can smell it when it's there.
> 
> Enjoy.



Bob,

1.  I resemble that remark!  And yes, buy the book...any book...of mine.  

2.  The only game playing is one out of curiosity.  Shucks.  It wasn't even smelly.  I talked to Tim last summer when he told me that the WMAA board had promoted him to 10th degree in Presas Arnis (my recall - any incorrect data is mine).  I asked him when he was going to make an announcement and he said he was "going to pull the trigger" after the WMAA summer camp.  The summer camp has come and gone and no announcement.  After several months I thought, "What the hell.  I'll bring up the topic and see what the answer is."  What I thought was interesting was that a stream of no-answers came out.  finally the answer comes out in someone's Facebook ad that Tim was teaching at their event.

Now, you'll notice that I have not posted anything even remotely resembling any kind of game playing or flame.  These are not the old MT days when you could stink-bomb anyone with impunity.  



> There was a thread concerning questions regarding Dan's Modern Arnis 80 on this board in which Datu Tim participated in.



Hey - I remember an attempted stink-bombing of yours truly from some posters on this matter, Tim included.  :erg:  I deflected the bombs with a skill rarely seen by mortal eyes.  I was truly awesome.  No stinky-bomby here.  I had two questions I wanted to see if they would be publicly answered.  One got answered and that took two months or so.  the other remains to be answered.

Now, from preferably James Miller (who has appeared to be the official WMAA spokesman in the past) or Tim, what is Presas Arnis?  Sub questions: how does it differ from Remy Modern Arnis and Ernesto Kombatan?  What are the elements which make it up?  Does PA contain other elements outside of the Presas brothers as well?

I'm curious.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Guro Harold

Bob Hubbard said:


> Harold,
> But We will not allow the game playing, and they all know that we can smell it when it's there.


Right Bob,

However, as long as no rules are broken, each member has an opportunity to post, each member has an opportunity to ignore or reply. And then based on post or replies, all members can then decide for themselves the value and validity of the content of the post or reply.

-Harold


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## Bob Hubbard

Guro Harold said:


> Right Bob,
> 
> However, as long as no rules are broken, each member has an opportunity to post, each member has an opportunity to ignore or reply. And then based on post or replies, all members can then decide for themselves the value and validity of the content of the post or reply.
> 
> -Harold


Harold,
  Game playing falls under trolling. Trolling is against the rules. Our moderation staff will be the ones deciding that, as always. Other than that, no one who is willing to follow our rules here, is being denied that ability. No posts censored, and so on.

As always,
 Your benevolent gawd-like dictator for life.


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## Archangel M

What is the definition of "game playing" as it applies to this forum?


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## Bob Hubbard

Archangel M said:


> What is the definition of "game playing" as it applies to this forum?


Repeating the damning behavior of trolls long since removed.


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## Dan Anderson

Awfully general, that answer.  Specifics, please.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Bob Hubbard

Lets start with asking a question whos answer you already knew, in an attempt to publicly engage the answerer, one who you have an immediate direct line to where rather than wait months for reply, you could have in 5 minutes...


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## Dan Anderson

Bob Hubbard said:


> *1.* Lets start with asking a question whos answer you already knew,
> *2.* in an attempt to publicly engage the answerer,
> *3.* one who you have an immediate direct line to where rather than wait months for reply, you could have in 5 minutes...



1.  I did.
2.  Publicly, absolutely.
3.  Yup.

What is being assumed here is _intent._  The troll behavior in the past back when MT was a forum in which one could actively hammer one another has long since been handled by the Mods, most notably Harold, quite some time ago.  What is wrong with public dialog?  Isn't that what a forum is all about?

The guarded or hinted at assumption is that I am attempting to bring some kind of hammer down on Tim because of differences we have had in the past.  Tim and I are in good communication these days, especially about the upcoming camp, so please don't read some sort of intent behind my questions.

I had two questions that many others had asked me privately: what is Presas Arnis and what is that belt Tim is wearing?  I can't, with any degree of education, answer the first question because I only have a peripheral knowledge of Tim's influences.  He was a 6th degree Datu under Remy Presas.  He trained for a time under Manong Ted Buot.  He has been associated with Dr. Gyi for some time.  He received a 9th degree from Ernesto Presas.  So, what are his other influences and how do they fit in with the formation of Presas Arnis?  This is a _technical_ question.

The belt that he wears in the Modern Arnis Minute video series is the same kind that Sr. GM Ed Parker used to wear.  He was a 10th dan in American Kenpo.  Is this a 10th dan designation in Presas Arnis?  This is a question I get as well.  I can tell others what Tim has told me but it is often more clearly stated from someone from the organization or Tim himself.  This is for the sake of clarity.  

You can't get a clearer answer from Bram Frank as to what MA80 is.  He knows what he knows but to get clarity you go to the source.  The same is me regarding CSSD/SC.  You want to know about it, ask Bram.

Towards the end of the thread I started to have a little bit of fun with it because people are getting too SERIOUS about the thread.  Lighten up.  The MT stink-bomb raids are a thing of the past.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Buy the memoirs! They're great!


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## Bob Hubbard

ok.


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## Bruno@MT

Dan Anderson said:


> Awfully general, that answer.  Specifics, please.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson



Otoh, in my experience, as soon as you are very specific in defining every detail of what is and is not allowed, people do their best to step right along the lines and any loopholes they can find so as to still troll while not -technically- breaking any rules.

Personally I always say that instead of worrying about how far you can push, just try to all be respectful and polite, and everything will work out in the end


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Im kind of surprised by this thread. Ive talked to you, Dan, many times over the past year. If you wanted answers of what and why we are doing things, all you had to do was ask. Not to mention that we talked about this in the beginning of 2010. Why wait so long? What you should have done was call or post the question on FMAT. I check that forum daily. I visit MT once a month at best. 

Since the question was asked, I will tell you what Presas Arnis is. The short answer is it is the combination of Modern Arnis and Kombatan. For the last several years, WMAA members have been training and testing in both systems simultaneously. The board and I have been talking for a while about officially combining curriculums under one banner for years. Why Presas Arnis? We wanted to give equal credit to both of the Presas brothers. On the 10 year anniversary of the WMAA, we officially released the Presas Arnis program. 

Does this change what we are doing? Maybe. Personally, I feel that it is a broadening of what we offer. GM Manglinong and I have worked on this for a while and are teaching what we learned from both brothers. We arent stepping away from either system. We are embracing both! The two systems complement each other quite well. Currently,  when issuing Black Belt diplomas,  we issue three different ones (at no extra cost). The first is Modern Arnis, the second Kombatan and the third is Presas Arnis. I foresee the Modern Arnis and Kombatan diplomas eventually being phased out, but for now we are keeping them. I understand how people may have sentimental feelings for the names of the two systems.

Am I wearing the 10th degree belt?  Yes, just like I told you last year. This has been a discussion that started from the beginning of the WMAA. Would I take the 10th degree in Modern Arnis? No, I have made that very clear from the beginning. There was only one, Remy A. Presas. Could there be another 10th? Only if the rest of the MA community reunited and selected one. Like thats going to happen anytime soon! So why the 10th now, did I need an extra title? No, Rick Manglinong and I were both promoted to 9th and Grand Master by a member of the Presas family, the late GGM Ernesto Presas. We were also informed at a west coast IPMAF meeting that GGM Ernesto was going to promote the two of us to the next level when we visited on our next trip this May. As flattered as we were with this endorsement by GGM, it didnt influence the decision of our board. Thats why both Rick and I  took the 10th degree when forming the new program. 

We did announce everything at the WMAA camp to our members about the promotions and direction that we are going.  Why wasnt there a public announcement?  With everything going on, it slipped through the cracks. We didnt even get the chance to write a review of the camp. Was I was afraid of what people would say? If that were the case, Rick and I wouldnt have worn our belts publicly in the Modern Arnis Minutes. Further more I wouldnt have told people outside the WMAA like Master Parsons, Master Zawilinski or you Dan! 

The last two years, we at the WMAA have been working on a project that has been consuming a great deal  of our time. What project is that? The Modern Arnis Reunion Camp! Ive been meeting with different organizations, instructors, hotels, caterers, etc. Throw in the tournaments that I host or consult on, this Mays Philippines tour and the new European camp Im doing in Poland and it makes for a busy schedule. Add in the fact that Im dyslexic, and I think people would understand why I dont spend as much time on the net as I use to. 

So to recap:
		The WMAA now teaches Presas Arnis, a combination of Modern Arnis and Kombatan.
		Grand Masters Hartman and Manglinong are now 10th degree black belts in Presas Arnis.

If anyone would like to discuss this in greater detail, feel free to call me at my school 716-675-0899. That number is usually forwarded to my cell. Or if you would like to have a face-to-face conversation we could meet at one of my upcoming events listed below. Now I will be getting back to working on this Julys reunion camp. 

Respectfully yours,
GM-Datu Tim Hartman



 Datu Hartmans 2011 events

*January 21st & 22nd Atlantic City, New Jersey.*
Datu Tim Hartman will be a guest instructor at the 2011 Action Martial Arts Magazine Hall of Honors and Trade show. For more information contact Sifu Alan Golderg at 718-856-8070 or http://www.actionmagstore.com/


*February 26th Detroit, Michigan*
Datu Tim Hartman and Master Rich Parsons will be conducting a joint seminar on Modern Arnis and Balintawak. For more information contact Bill Barker at bill@progressivetactics.com or http://www.progressivetactics.com/

*March 26th London, Ontario  Canada*
Datu Hartman will be conducting a Presas Arnis seminar. For more information contact  Scott Southwell at scottsouthwell6@hotmail.com

*April 9th Buffalo, New York *
Datu Hartman will be hosting the Buffalo  Niagara Laban Laro IX Tournament. This tournament will feature Stick and Sword Fighting divisions. For more information contact Datu Hartman at 716-675-0899 or email admin@horizonma.com or visit our site http://queencitylabanlaro.com

*April 9th & 10th Buffalo, New York*
Datu Hartman will be conducting a CIT (Certified Instructor Training) course. Topics will include EDT (Edged weapon Defensive Tactics), Solo Baston & PSC (Progressive Sword Concepts) modules. The training will follow the Buffalo  Niagara Laban Laro Tournament. For more information contact the WMAA Headquarters at 716-771-1291 of admin@wmarnis.com

*April 15th 17th Saratoga Springs, New York*
Datu Hartman will be a guest instructor at the Saratoga Martial Arts Festival. For more information contact Steve Pearlman at info@saratogafestival.com or http://www.saratogafestival.com

*May 14th, Gainesville, Virginia*
Datu Tim Hartman will be teaching a seminar on Modern Arnis Concepts. For more information contact Gainesville Modern Arnis at: 703-774-6722 or GMATG.VA@gmail.com

*May 19th  21st Cromwell, Connecticut*
Datu Hartman will be a guest instructor at the IMAF Connecticut Training Camp. For more information contact Brian Zawilinski at masterbrianz@yahoo.com

*June 11th Chicago, Illinois*
Datu Tim Hartman will be the head arbitrator at the Pacific Island Gathering Tournament. For more information contact Guro John at 773-284-8818 email the kali@midwaykodenkan.com

*July 14th  17th , 2011 Buffalo, New York*
Modern Arnis Reunion Camp

*July 30th  August 7th Poland WMAA Poland Training Camp*

*September 16th & 17th Lake Tahoe, California*
2nd Annual Presas Arnis (WMAA) West Coast Conference

*September 23rd  25th Buffalo, New York*
The Buffalo  Niagara Martial Arts Festival (BNMAF) will feature seminars taught by some of the leading martial artists in their fields. This years event will feature:
Datu Tim Hartman  Presas Arnis
Master Rich Parsons  Balintawak Eskrima
Sensei John Borter  Modern Jujitsu
Sensei Ken Swan  Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu
More instructors to be added.
This event will include a banquet Saturday evening and a tour of Niagara Falls Sunday afternoon. For more information contact Horizon Martial Art at admin@horizonma.com or 716-771-1291.


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## MJS

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> Im kind of surprised by this thread. Ive talked to you, Dan, many times over the past year. If you wanted answers of what and why we are doing things, all you had to do was ask. Not to mention that we talked about this in the beginning of 2010. Why wait so long? What you should have done was call or post the question on FMAT. I check that forum daily. I visit MT once a month at best.
> 
> Since the question was asked, I will tell you what Presas Arnis is. The short answer is it is the combination of Modern Arnis and Kombatan. For the last several years, WMAA members have been training and testing in both systems simultaneously. The board and I have been talking for a while about officially combining curriculums under one banner for years. Why Presas Arnis? We wanted to give equal credit to both of the Presas brothers. On the 10 year anniversary of the WMAA, we officially released the Presas Arnis program.
> 
> Does this change what we are doing? Maybe. Personally, I feel that it is a broadening of what we offer. GM Manglinong and I have worked on this for a while and are teaching what we learned from both brothers. We arent stepping away from either system. We are embracing both! The two systems complement each other quite well. Currently, when issuing Black Belt diplomas, we issue three different ones (at no extra cost). The first is Modern Arnis, the second Kombatan and the third is Presas Arnis. I foresee the Modern Arnis and Kombatan diplomas eventually being phased out, but for now we are keeping them. I understand how people may have sentimental feelings for the names of the two systems.
> 
> Am I wearing the 10th degree belt? Yes, just like I told you last year. This has been a discussion that started from the beginning of the WMAA. Would I take the 10th degree in Modern Arnis? No, I have made that very clear from the beginning. There was only one, Remy A. Presas. Could there be another 10th? Only if the rest of the MA community reunited and selected one. Like thats going to happen anytime soon! So why the 10th now, did I need an extra title? No, Rick Manglinong and I were both promoted to 9th and Grand Master by a member of the Presas family, the late GGM Ernesto Presas. We were also informed at a west coast IPMAF meeting that GGM Ernesto was going to promote the two of us to the next level when we visited on our next trip this May. As flattered as we were with this endorsement by GGM, it didnt influence the decision of our board. Thats why both Rick and I took the 10th degree when forming the new program.
> 
> We did announce everything at the WMAA camp to our members about the promotions and direction that we are going. Why wasnt there a public announcement? With everything going on, it slipped through the cracks. We didnt even get the chance to write a review of the camp. Was I was afraid of what people would say? If that were the case, Rick and I wouldnt have worn our belts publicly in the Modern Arnis Minutes. Further more I wouldnt have told people outside the WMAA like Master Parsons, Master Zawilinski or you Dan!
> 
> The last two years, we at the WMAA have been working on a project that has been consuming a great deal of our time. What project is that? The Modern Arnis Reunion Camp! Ive been meeting with different organizations, instructors, hotels, caterers, etc. Throw in the tournaments that I host or consult on, this Mays Philippines tour and the new European camp Im doing in Poland and it makes for a busy schedule. Add in the fact that Im dyslexic, and I think people would understand why I dont spend as much time on the net as I use to.
> 
> So to recap:
>     The WMAA now teaches Presas Arnis, a combination of Modern Arnis and Kombatan.
>     Grand Masters Hartman and Manglinong are now 10th degree black belts in Presas Arnis.
> 
> If anyone would like to discuss this in greater detail, feel free to call me at my school 716-675-0899. That number is usually forwarded to my cell. Or if you would like to have a face-to-face conversation we could meet at one of my upcoming events listed below. Now I will be getting back to working on this Julys reunion camp.
> 
> Respectfully yours,
> GM-Datu Tim Hartman


 
Nice post Tim.   IMO, I think this sums up what you do very nice.   While I have not had the chance to train Kombaton, I have seen a few dvds on the art and I liked what I saw.  Personally, I see nothing wrong with the mix.  I'm sure they blend together just fine.

As for the belt issue....IMO, thats nothing to worry about.  I've seen Kajukenbo people wearing stripes and bars on their belt, much like Parker Kenpo, even though Kaju belts are unique in their own right.  





> Datu Hartmans 2011 events
> 
> *January 21st & 22nd Atlantic City, New Jersey.*
> Datu Tim Hartman will be a guest instructor at the 2011 Action Martial Arts Magazine Hall of Honors and Trade show. For more information contact Sifu Alan Golderg at 718-856-8070 or http://www.actionmagstore.com/
> 
> 
> *February 26th Detroit, Michigan*
> Datu Tim Hartman and Master Rich Parsons will be conducting a joint seminar on Modern Arnis and Balintawak. For more information contact Bill Barker at bill@progressivetactics.com or http://www.progressivetactics.com/
> 
> *March 26th London, Ontario  Canada*
> Datu Hartman will be conducting a Presas Arnis seminar. For more information contact Scott Southwell at scottsouthwell6@hotmail.com
> 
> *April 9th Buffalo, New York *
> Datu Hartman will be hosting the Buffalo  Niagara Laban Laro IX Tournament. This tournament will feature Stick and Sword Fighting divisions. For more information contact Datu Hartman at 716-675-0899 or email admin@horizonma.com or visit our site http://queencitylabanlaro.com
> 
> *April 9th & 10th Buffalo, New York*
> Datu Hartman will be conducting a CIT (Certified Instructor Training) course. Topics will include EDT (Edged weapon Defensive Tactics), Solo Baston & PSC (Progressive Sword Concepts) modules. The training will follow the Buffalo  Niagara Laban Laro Tournament. For more information contact the WMAA Headquarters at 716-771-1291 of admin@wmarnis.com
> 
> *April 15th 17th Saratoga Springs, New York*
> Datu Hartman will be a guest instructor at the Saratoga Martial Arts Festival. For more information contact Steve Pearlman at info@saratogafestival.com or http://www.saratogafestival.com
> 
> *May 14th, Gainesville, Virginia*
> Datu Tim Hartman will be teaching a seminar on Modern Arnis Concepts. For more information contact Gainesville Modern Arnis at: 703-774-6722 or GMATG.VA@gmail.com
> 
> *May 19th  21st Cromwell, Connecticut*
> Datu Hartman will be a guest instructor at the IMAF Connecticut Training Camp. For more information contact Brian Zawilinski at masterbrianz@yahoo.com
> 
> *June 11th Chicago, Illinois*
> Datu Tim Hartman will be the head arbitrator at the Pacific Island Gathering Tournament. For more information contact Guro John at 773-284-8818 email the kali@midwaykodenkan.com
> 
> *July 14th  17th , 2011 Buffalo, New York*
> Modern Arnis Reunion Camp
> 
> *July 30th  August 7th Poland WMAA Poland Training Camp*
> 
> *September 16th & 17th Lake Tahoe, California*
> 2nd Annual Presas Arnis (WMAA) West Coast Conference
> 
> *September 23rd  25th Buffalo, New York*
> The Buffalo  Niagara Martial Arts Festival (BNMAF) will feature seminars taught by some of the leading martial artists in their fields. This years event will feature:
> Datu Tim Hartman  Presas Arnis
> Master Rich Parsons  Balintawak Eskrima
> Sensei John Borter  Modern Jujitsu
> Sensei Ken Swan  Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu
> More instructors to be added.
> This event will include a banquet Saturday evening and a tour of Niagara Falls Sunday afternoon. For more information contact Horizon Martial Art at admin@horizonma.com or 716-771-1291.


 
Excellent!  I look forward to seeing you in Cromwell as well as NY.


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## Dieter

The blend between the Modern Arnis of Ernesto (we quit working with Ernesto in 1993. About 6 years before the renaming of his system to Kombatan) and the Modern Arnis of GM Remy is what we in the DAV do since 15 years.

GM 
Datu Dieter Knüttel


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## jks9199

MJS said:


> Nice post Tim.   IMO, I think this sums up what you do very nice.   While I have not had the chance to train Kombaton, I have seen a few dvds on the art and I liked what I saw.  Personally, I see nothing wrong with the mix.  I'm sure they blend together just fine.
> 
> As for the belt issue....IMO, thats nothing to worry about.  I've seen Kajukenbo people wearing stripes and bars on their belt, much like Parker Kenpo, even though Kaju belts are unique in their own right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent!  I look forward to seeing you in Cromwell as well as NY.


I agree; a very considerate reply!  I may try to make the time to come out and play when you're in Gainesville...


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## MJS

Question for Tim,

I'm sure I'll have an opportunity to see first hand, your style, at the camps, but for the sake of discussion....

you said that you're teaching a blend of the 2.  That being said, what have you added/deleted from each, to create what you currently teach?  Ex: anyos...are they still in the system, have you kept them as they way GM Remy did them?  Disarms...are they more GM Remy, GM Ernesto, etc.?


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## Guro Harold

Yes, besides Dieter and Tim, Hock Hochheim's SFC system has had for years the influences of of the late GMs Remy and Ernesto Presas.

Datu Tim, though you didn't have to reply on MT, it is appreciated that you did.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

MJS said:


> Question for Tim,
> 
> I'm sure I'll have an opportunity to see first hand, your style, at the camps, but for the sake of discussion....
> 
> you said that you're teaching a blend of the 2.  That being said, what have you added/deleted from each, to create what you currently teach?  Ex: anyos...are they still in the system, have you kept them as they way GM Remy did them?  Disarms...are they more GM Remy, GM Ernesto, etc.?



We kept everything. The thing that we're working on at the moment is where the Kombatan Anyos should be taught. As far as adding goes, we've brought more Balintawak into the system. Prof. used that system for source material when creating MA. We've also blended some Bando in as well. Prof. started working with Dr. Gyi a couple years prior to his hospitalization and was very impressed with him and what he has teaching. The last seminar I hosted with them together, Prof. actually got on the floor and trained part of Dr. Gyi's session!


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## MJS

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> We kept everything. The thing that we're working on at the moment is where the Kombatan Anyos should be taught. As far as adding goes, we've brought more Balintawak into the system. Prof. used that system for source material when creating MA. We've also blended some Bando in as well. Prof. started working with Dr. Gyi a couple years prior to his hospitalization and was very impressed with him and what he has teaching. The last seminar I hosted with them together, Prof. actually got on the floor and trained part of Dr. Gyi's session!


 
Cool! Thanks.  Looking forward to working with you. 

Edit:  Is there a big difference between GM Ernestos anyos and those that GM Remy taught?


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## Dan Anderson

> Im kind of surprised by this thread. Ive talked to you, Dan, many times over the past year. If you wanted answers of what and why we are doing things, all you had to do was ask. Not to mention that we talked about this in the beginning of 2010. Why wait so long? What you should have done was call or post the question on FMAT. I check that forum daily. I visit MT once a month at best.



Because you could state it far better than I could...and you did.  Terrific post.

Yours,
Moi


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## Datu Tim Hartman

MJS said:


> Cool! Thanks.  Looking forward to working with you.
> 
> Edit:  Is there a big difference between GM Ernestos anyos and those that GM Remy taught?



The Kombatan Anyos are more involved.


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## Mark Lynn

Guro Harold said:


> Yes, besides Dieter and Tim, Hock Hochheim's SFC system has had for years the influences of of the late GMs Remy and Ernesto Presas.



When I started with Hock in 94 he was combining Mano Mano (before it was changed to Kombatan) GM Ernesto's system and GM Remy's Modern Arnis.  Over time he simplified his teachings even more to where his current system doesn't resemble their arts as much anymore.

Hock also added in his own types of training drills to and expanded the edged weapon materials over the years.

But in the beginning it was very much a blend of the two brother's materials.  This was encouraged by Remy and Ernesto although many of the other MA students/maybe even some instructors frowned upon this.  My Lakan Isa certificate from Hock has both brothers signatures on it for his system of Presas Arnis.


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## Mark Lynn

As far as teaching Presas Arnis this has been what I have primarily called what I teach now for many years as well.  Granted I got the idea and the base format from Hock, but I went a different way with it.

Where Hock simplified things and made it more combative in nature, I tried to keep things more representative of the two brothers material.  Not only in keeping many of the drills techniques of the two brothers arts, but also in adding drills, techniques, concepts, from top students of GM Remy's (only because Remy had the bigger following here in the states and thus more top instructors to learn from), to help improve my understanding  of MA.

As a side note:  Datu Tim, hopefully at the reunion camp if you don't mind, we might be able to sit down and discuss your Presas Arnis curriculum with the WMAA.  I'd enjoy seeing what you have blended, kept, discarded etc. etc.

Mark


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## Guro Harold

The Boar Man said:


> When I started with Hock in 94 he was combining Mano Mano (before it was changed to Kombatan) GM Ernesto's system and GM Remy's Modern Arnis.  Over time he simplified his teachings even more to where his current system doesn't resemble their arts as much anymore.
> 
> Hock also added in his own types of training drills to and expanded the edged weapon materials over the years.
> 
> But in the beginning it was very much a blend of the two brother's materials.  This was encouraged by Remy and Ernesto although many of the other MA students/maybe even some instructors frowned upon this.  My Lakan Isa certificate from Hock has both brothers signatures on it for his system of Presas Arnis.


Thanks Mark!

Its great to hear this perspective from someone such as yourself that has a long term perspective on the matter.

I do like the Palit-Palit drills which seem to have been more prominent with GM Ernesto's system. One of those cable shows that featured him showed him doing this drill blindfolded.


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## Mark Lynn

Guro Harold said:


> Thanks Mark!
> 
> Its great to hear this perspective from someone such as yourself that has a long term perspective on the matter.
> 
> I do like the Palit-Palit drills which seem to have been more prominent with GM Ernesto's system. One of those cable shows that featured him showed him doing this drill blindfolded.



Harold

I liked the Palit Palit drills as well, in fact I had planned on having them on every belt level in my method of Presas Arnis.  Now as I am teaching though I have had to de-emphasize them and am putting them more in the middle/advanced levels only.  Although my students enjoyed the drills.

Was GM Ernesto doing the Palit Palit blindfolded, or was it his Freestyle pattern?  His Freestyle pattern he often would demonstrate blindfolded, I've seen him do it even with a 20oz Sprite bottle (not blindfolded though).


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## Guro Harold

The Boar Man said:


> Harold
> 
> I liked the Palit Palit drills as well, in fact I had planned on having them on every belt level in my method of Presas Arnis.  Now as I am teaching though I have had to de-emphasize them and am putting them more in the middle/advanced levels only.  Although my students enjoyed the drills.
> 
> Was GM Ernesto doing the Palit Palit blindfolded, or was it his Freestyle pattern?  His Freestyle pattern he often would demonstrate blindfolded, I've seen him do it even with a 20oz Sprite bottle (not blindfolded though).


Freestyle from what I recall.

I like teaching Palit-Palit because it helps get beginning students feet moving in a controlled, semi free-form manner.


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