# Civilian defence of a plane



## yipman_sifu (Apr 23, 2006)

Here is my Sifu Thomas Mannes demonstrates how to defend to plane hijacks and this stuff.
http://www.wt-schulen-sbr-sls.de/Neue_Dateien/SVIMFLUGZEUG.mpeg
(I recomend you *Save Target As* this clip to open faster then delete it if you wish).


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## White Fox (Apr 23, 2006)

interesting video


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## yipman_sifu (Apr 23, 2006)

This is regarding his practical use of self defence in hard situations. If you see his moves and punches, he punches destructive rockets. I beleive that any one gets a punch of his in the jaw,he might lose his face bone. What do you expect from a master who trained about 30 years of Wing Chun


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## Kensai (Apr 24, 2006)

On holiday to New Zealand on Friday, maybe I should check this out... Although, I'd rather not think about that...


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## ed-swckf (Apr 24, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> On holiday to New Zealand on Friday, maybe I should check this out... Although, I'd rather not think about that...


 
Have a good holiday.


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## Kensai (Apr 24, 2006)

It's New Zealand mate, that's guaranteed. ;0) Thanks anyway, will bring ya'll something back nice... Lol...


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## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 24, 2006)

This is so stupid I don´t even know where to start.

OK, the first "defense". Why did he just stay there instead of cutting her open like sushi? I mean, she did what looked like a pak sao against the hand holding the knife, but why didn´t he stab her to death instead of staying there taking those chain punches?

The first thing a reasonably smart human bring will do, when faced with a knife wielding adversary, is run away. The second thing is controlling the weapon, which the girl didn´t do - she just slapped it sideways and tried to blast him away, ignoring the fact that she was in greater danger than before!

I can only hope no one buys into this thing.


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## yipman_sifu (Apr 24, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> This is so stupid I don´t even know where to start.
> 
> OK, the first "defense". Why did he just stay there instead of cutting her open like sushi? I mean, she did what looked like a pak sao against the hand holding the knife, but why didn´t he stab her to death instead of staying there taking those chain punches?
> 
> ...


 
Hey Lawyer. My Sifu Mannes just shows a demonstration of controling the weapon, can't you see it?!. Regarding the girl, I don't really understand German which is being said at the begining by the Sifu, but I am sure that my sifu knows what he is showing.


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## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 24, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> Hey Lawyer. My Sifu Mannes just shows a demonstration of controling the weapon, can't you see it?!. Regarding the girl, I don't really understand German which is being said at the begining by the Sifu, but I am sure that my sifu knows what he is showing.


 
There is no attempt at controlling the weapon. There is a pak sau directed at a knife blade (which, of course, would result in the WC guy impaling his own hand), followed by the terrorist VOLUNTARILY releasing the girl, followed by a chain punch attack directed at the terrorist.

This is the opposite of a knife defense. 

And I hope your sifu presents those demonstrations as what not to do, otherwise he doesn&#180;t know what he is showing.


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## Kensai (Apr 24, 2006)

Frankly, I think the only true way of defending a plane against a mad-man, is by the passengers co-ordinating a general defence and overwhelming the perp. That does mean that some people will most likely be injured/killed, but in this scenario, being attacked with a knife doesn't potentially kill 1, but hundreds on a large airliner. 
Serious issues... Not sure what I'd do if I saw it happen on Friday.


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## The MMA kid! (Apr 24, 2006)

this has got to be the silliest thing I have seen on this site. I've seen bad kung fu movies that are more credible than that.


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## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 24, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> Frankly, I think the only true way of defending a plane against a mad-man, is by the passengers co-ordinating a general defence and overwhelming the perp. That does mean that some people will most likely be injured/killed, but in this scenario, being attacked with a knife doesn't potentially kill 1, but hundreds on a large airliner.
> Serious issues... Not sure what I'd do if I saw it happen on Friday.


 
One well trained man can take down one person armed with a knife, specially if the element of surprise is on his side.

But he will have to control the knife hand during the process.


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## Lisa (Apr 24, 2006)

* Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful. Thank you.

-Lisa Deneka
-MT Moderator-*


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## ed-swckf (Apr 24, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> It's New Zealand mate, that's guaranteed. ;0) Thanks anyway, will bring ya'll something back nice... Lol...


 
How long are you going for?


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## Kensai (Apr 24, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> One well trained man can take down one person armed with a knife, specially if the element of surprise is on his side.
> 
> But he will have to control the knife hand during the process.



No doubt, but at 35000 feet, travelling at 550+ kts, in a pressurised tube, I don't want to rely on just "one" guy being good at any given MA. When there are many lives at stake, and the likelihood is that _most _are not MA trained, then the same principle applies. I didn't watch the vid, as my PC's pretty rubbish at the minute, but I still think it's the natural course of action that if you were lucky, you'd get maybe half a dozen passengers to jump the assailant. That's another issue though, I would always want to control the knife hand, or if feasible, have removed it from him first. 

Ed, I'm going for 3 weeks mate. GET IN! May try and get some pics done, are there any areas on here I can post them on???


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## Lisa (Apr 24, 2006)

We have a photo gallery available for supporting members.


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## Ric Flair (Apr 24, 2006)

I'd say by observing the first example in the clip, it seems very realistic how she reacted as a student of the Wing Chun sciences.  I am only referring to her second nature timing based on a lot of training and conditioning.  Wing Chun teaches and conditions a lot of sensitivity and "feeeel", plus the fact often in Wing Chun we are taught to learn to relax in such sudden situations.  When you first comply with your attacker and remain calm, it creates the ATTACKER to feel less edgy and slightly underestimate you.  If you tense up however and start to struggle, this makes the attacker more nervous and desperate to control you.  I think the lady air flight attendant had the advantage of sudden "art of surprise/shock" on the attacker thanks in part to her being calm and not tense or struggling against him.


I am not too sure of the results though.  I'm having a good hunch she in real life would have been cut at least once.  Dealing with a knife wielding attacker is not as what it seems like in most of these videos.  Using a knife as a weapon to attack someone is very very effective and deadly.  If O.J Simpson (assuming he was guilty lol  ) didn't have those two knives and was empty handed, chances are his wife and Ronald Goldman would still be alive today.
If prisoners in the prison yards and showers used less "shanks" or ice picks, there would be less murders in jail.  
Even the most unskilled person can yield a knife and really injure or even possibly kill a very skilled fighter.

So this video clip to me merely demonstrates and practices a principle or guideline, I don't think the whole thing is written in stone.  Just something to consider and even learn some perspectives from.


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## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 25, 2006)

Ric Flair said:
			
		

> I'd say by observing the first example in the clip, it seems very realistic how she reacted as a student of the Wing Chun sciences. I am only referring to her second nature timing based on a lot of training and conditioning. Wing Chun teaches and conditions a lot of sensitivity and "feeeel", plus the fact often in Wing Chun we are taught to learn to relax in such sudden situations. When you first comply with your attacker and remain calm, it creates the ATTACKER to feel less edgy and slightly underestimate you. If you tense up however and start to struggle, this makes the attacker more nervous and desperate to control you. I think the lady air flight attendant had the advantage of sudden "art of surprise/shock" on the attacker thanks in part to her being calm and not tense or struggling against him.
> 
> 
> I am not too sure of the results though. I'm having a good hunch she in real life would have been cut at least once. Dealing with a knife wielding attacker is not as what it seems like in most of these videos. Using a knife as a weapon to attack someone is very very effective and deadly. If O.J Simpson (assuming he was guilty lol  ) didn't have those two knives and was empty handed, chances are his wife and Ronald Goldman would still be alive today.
> ...


 
She used a pak sao against a live blade - bad technique for the situation, that´s a nice way to impale your own hand.

The terrorist was so compliant he allowed that pak sao to actually send his hand about one foot from the attendant´s neck. In real life that technique would not have sent it away one inch from her neck, and would have angered the attacker.

HE THEN VOLUNTARILY RELEASES HER FROM THE HOLD, without her doing anything. I mean, that was so absurd it is beyond arguing. She didn´t do anything against him, she didn´t even hold his arm - she just turned to face him relying on the fact he would let her go.

She then proceeds to chain punch him, even though his knife hand (with knife) is still dangerously close to her face and neck. But hey, it´s not as if the guy is ACTUALLy trying to do anything nasty in the first place, right?

That defense was not bad, it was yellow bamboo-horrible. It takes the concept of compliant training partners to a whole new level.


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## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 25, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> No doubt, but at 35000 feet, travelling at 550+ kts, in a pressurised tube, I don't want to rely on just "one" guy being good at any given MA.


 
Well, I am certainly not arguing against that.


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 25, 2006)

Another mediocre defense against a knife vid.  Oh, but this time it's being practiced on an airplane to try to make it look relevant to todays world.

Jeff


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## Ric Flair (Apr 25, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> She used a pak sao against a live blade - bad technique for the situation, that´s a nice way to impale your own hand.
> 
> The terrorist was so compliant he allowed that pak sao to actually send his hand about one foot from the attendant´s neck. In real life that technique would not have sent it away one inch from her neck, and would have angered the attacker.
> 
> ...



A more practical or realistic approach to bladed situations would be to study and learn from say Sayoc Kali or something.  Even than, a good teacher would tell you there are no promises or guarentee's if someone attacks you with a knife.  Number one thing they will teach you in Kali is that there is a good chance you "WILL BE CUT" in a bladed situation.


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## 7starmantis (Apr 25, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> She used a pak sao against a live blade - bad technique for the situation, that´s a nice way to impale your own hand.
> 
> The terrorist was so compliant he allowed that pak sao to actually send his hand about one foot from the attendant´s neck. In real life that technique would not have sent it away one inch from her neck, and would have angered the attacker.


While I agree that the video was a bit unrealistic, I dont like addressing realistic changing situations with absolutes. I dont think its realistically training to say for sure what a technique would do to an attacker. Each situation is different, and to say we know 100% what would happen on either side of the attack is unrealistic. 

I thought the first technique was a bit questionable but sometimes when you feel your about to be killed, a questionable act can save your life. The last two techniques looked like a quick way to get killed, I just didn't see any control of the weapons or control of the "line of fire" with the gun. Seems the woman was relying on the attacks to take care of the weapons, not a good idea in my experience. 

7sm


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## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 25, 2006)

Ric Flair said:
			
		

> A more practical or realistic approach to bladed situations would be to study and learn from say Sayoc Kali or something. Even than, a good teacher would tell you there are no promises or guarentee's if someone attacks you with a knife. Number one thing they will teach you in Kali is that there is a good chance you "WILL BE CUT" in a bladed situation.


 
Man, I know nothing about knives, I never studied kali or other weapon arts. BUT I know you are supposed to control the knife hand in those situations, that is just plain common sense, and that is what people who have experience in those arts told me.

Studying Kali would be ideal, of course. But, quite frankly, when I watch that video, I cannot help but wonder - it would be best to study nothing than to practice those moves.


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## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 25, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> 1) While I agree that the video was a bit unrealistic, I dont like addressing realistic changing situations with absolutes. I dont think its realistically training to say for sure what a technique would do to an attacker. Each situation is different, and to say we know 100% what would happen on either side of the attack is unrealistic.
> 
> 2) I thought the first technique was a bit questionable but sometimes when you feel your about to be killed, a questionable act can save your life. The last two techniques looked like a quick way to get killed, I just didn't see any control of the weapons or control of the "line of fire" with the gun. Seems the woman was relying on the attacks to take care of the weapons, not a good idea in my experience.
> 
> 7sm


 
1) I said not absolutes here. I just pointed out some blatant examples of compliance, and some obvious technical flaws. The moves shown in that video were not in the gray zone of "might", they were in the black zone of "it´s a nice day to get shanked". Specifically, the first technique showed a ridiculous example of compliance, when the terrorist let the attendant go after getting her in a hold with a knife to her neck - for no reason at all. He just let her go and start chain punching him. That is outright suicidal.

2) I saw no control of the weapon in the first technique either.


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## Ric Flair (Apr 25, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> Man, I know nothing about knives, I never studied kali or other weapon arts. BUT I know you are supposed to control the knife hand in those situations, that is just plain common sense, and that is what people who have experience in those arts told me.
> 
> Studying Kali would be ideal, of course. But, quite frankly, when I watch that video, I cannot help but wonder - it would be best to study nothing than to practice those moves.




Ever had someone suddenly pull out a knife or 2 on you?  What was your first reaction?  I'm sure it was different from when someone approached you with their fist.  That sudden "panic" reaction you get when someone threatens you with blades is very common in people who are not experienced with knives/swords.   Your eyes instantly recognize the glint of an object potential of murdering you.  It is like having gun pointed at you.



Studying something like Sayoc Kali will eventually desensatize you to such panic when it comes to a bladed weapon pulled on you.  And that is only the top icing of the cake.  There is so much more to learning about knives and weapons it is not even funny.  

When a knife or blade is involved, you are not fighting to win a fight; you are pretty much fighting for your very life;.


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## ed-swckf (Apr 25, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> Ed, I'm going for 3 weeks mate. GET IN! May try and get some pics done, are there any areas on here I can post them on???


 
That would be awesome, 3 weeks holiday sounds like such a luxuary right now but seeing pics would be great.  The long flight is what puts me off new zealand, i find i can only just about put up with the 8 hour flight to the states but i'd love to go someday.


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## Kensai (Apr 26, 2006)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> That would be awesome, 3 weeks holiday sounds like such a luxuary right now but seeing pics would be great. The long flight is what puts me off new zealand, i find i can only just about put up with the 8 hour flight to the states but i'd love to go someday.


 
I find that I sleep for most of it, and depending on the airline, you get a TV in the seat in front of you, which eats away the hours. A good book or two also helps, but I know what you mean. Fortunately, the end destination is more than worth it, we're hoping to emigrate there in a few years, it's THAT good a place. 

As for the knife thing, I know for a fact that I'd brick myself in a knife confrontation, and I served in the 2nd Gulf and have seen active combat. Violent confrontation, especially facing someone with murderous intent is particularly difficult to plan for/be prepared for. Obviously doing something like Kali, Escrima etc would desensitise the individual to a blade being produced, but there will always be a healthy adrenaline rush. What does that mean? It means that it's all very well discussing what you _should _do, but the reality may be something entirely different. 

I'd probably (frantically) look around to see if there was anything I could use to provide some/any protection, maybe I'd grab a coat and try to distract the assailant by binding a lead arm with it, a belt, anything. Maybe I wouldn't. Perhaps I'd try and throw something at him, again, anything. I certainly don't know enough knife defence to do the heroic thing of leaping in there and trying to grab his knife hand. As a last resort, if the guy's being kind enough to hold the blade out in front of him, I may try and kick the knife away, who knows. I can't talk with such confidence as I truly don't know what I'd do. The principle of "controlling" the knife hand IS common sense, it's also easier said than done.


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## ed-swckf (Apr 26, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> I find that I sleep for most of it, and depending on the airline, you get a TV in the seat in front of you, which eats away the hours. A good book or two also helps, but I know what you mean. Fortunately, the end destination is more than worth it, we're hoping to emigrate there in a few years, it's THAT good a place.


 
I can't sleep on planes ever.


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## Hand Sword (Apr 26, 2006)

I think, judging by recent outburts on planes, and the reaction of the passengers --pummeling those that did it-- you wouldn't be alone in responding. After 9/11, anything suspicious gets an immediate reaction.


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## Kensai (Apr 26, 2006)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> I can't sleep on planes ever.


 
For what it's worth, I'm not overly keen on flying, ok once I'm up.


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## ed-swckf (Apr 26, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> For what it's worth, I'm not overly keen on flying, ok once I'm up.


 
I love flying, i just don't like sitting in a rather cramped up seat, i should go first class!!


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## Kensai (Apr 26, 2006)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> I love flying, i just don't like sitting in a rather cramped up seat, i should go first class!!


 
It's just the take off I don't like...


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