# Sawing off the barrel...?



## Cruentus (Jan 29, 2004)

Lets put legalities aside here...(I don't want anyone to incriminate themselves!)

Lets speak in hypotheticals.

IF sawing the barrel down on your shootgun was legal, would you own a sawed off shootgun? What would be the benefits of having one? The disadvantages?

Your thoughts?


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## dearnis.com (Jan 29, 2004)

Since I routinely use (legally) 14" barreled shotguns.....

IMO no advantage unless on an entry gun.  I like the choked down shorty's we have in service as a play gun at the range.  BUT my duty shotgun carries a 20" barrel.  Why?  Higher magazine capacity, plain and simple.  

If I were going to own a shorty (which is legal, though prohibitively regulated) I would have the barrel done right by either Scattergun Technologies or Vang-Comp.  (Assuming one is paying the $200 federal transfer tax anyway you might as well have something worth owning.)

That being said the only real use, other than an entry gun, is for concealment or ease of use in a vehicle.  Both have very limited civilian applications, and ther are better solutions to both problems.

Chad


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## Spud (Jan 29, 2004)

Just out of curiosity  having such a modified firearm in your possession is a federal offense, correct?


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## Phil Elmore (Jan 29, 2004)

The legal minimum barrel length for a shotgun is 18 inches.  For a rifle it is 16 inches, I think.  Possessing barrels below that length is indeed a federal offense if you do not have the proper paperwork (which, as I understand it, is difficult but not impossible to obtain in most cases).


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## dearnis.com (Jan 29, 2004)

Short barrelled weapons, like fully automatic weapons and supressors ("silencers") fall under the National Firearms Act (passed earlt last century; I want to say 1934 but I could be wrong).
Federally, one may own these items if all conditions are met- back ground check (not an instant-check; a full bore Federal investigation); payment of appropriate fees, etc.
AND the weapon must be legal in your state and municipality.

And yes Phil, it is 18" for shotguns, 16" for rifles; both need an overall minimum length as well to be legal.
NFA documentation is not impossible to get by any means; these weapons and their owners are so tightly regulated that they never turn up, um, mis-used shall we say.  The bigger question, as I noted above, is are they worth the bother?  Full auto is great fun, but only if someone else is buying the ammo.  Shorty weapons have a place, but not one that most folks need worry about.
Now I might pony up the dollars for a good quiet .22, but they are banned at the state level where I am.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 29, 2004)

The advantage to owning a sawed off shot gun would be the ability to conceal the heavy fire power. I'm sure the spread of shot woud be altered as well. However, in a pinch, a cannon just under your coat can turn the tables in your favor.


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## Cruentus (Jan 29, 2004)

Here is another question...

How drastically is the accuracy and spread effected with shortened barrels?

Also, what about sawing down the handle? Is this illegal, and how would this effect your shooting?


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## Phil Elmore (Jan 30, 2004)

The shorter the barrel, the less accurate will be your shot (and the greater the spread).  Sawing down the barrel (or changing out the stock for a pistol grip) is "legal" provided the resulting weapon is still longer than the Federal minimum overall length requirement.  A Mossberg Persuader with an 18" barrel and a pistol grip is legal, for example.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *The shorter the barrel, the less accurate will be your shot (and the greater the spread).  Sawing down the barrel (or changing out the stock for a pistol grip) is "legal" provided the resulting weapon is still longer than the Federal minimum overall length requirement.  A Mossberg Persuader with an 18" barrel and a pistol grip is legal, for example. *



That's exactly what I did to my 870... It has an 18" barrel and a pistol grip.  I have not fired it in this configuration, and am almost afraid to.


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## Phil Elmore (Jan 30, 2004)

Start with ultra-light target loads and work your way up to something medium, like bird shot.  You'll be fine.


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## dearnis.com (Jan 30, 2004)

Barrel length does not affect accuracy; this is a long-standing myth.  Barrel length does affect sight radius, which in turn determines usable accuracy.  
Pellet spread is a function of choke, or constriction at the end of the barrel. This is usually lost in short barrelled guns; hence my endorsement of certain high-end conversions above.
I dont like shooting pistol grips; you gain too muck from the stock in terms of shot to shot recovery.

As to concealment; there is no way anyone is going reliably conceal a cut down shotgun on a regular basis.  If you are doing so short term I suggest you should consider another line of work
I think Paul's initial question related to civil self defense,,so let me throw this out there...
You pop off 2 rounds of buckshot in what would otherwise be a clean shoot.  Assume standare OO buck for this problem.  a total of 7 pellets hit your intended target, terminally incapaciting him.
How many more pellets have you launched down range?  What is your responsibility for the damage or injury they cause?


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## Phil Elmore (Jan 30, 2004)

I was referring to sight radius, yes.


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## psi_radar (Jan 30, 2004)

I believe John Derringer made that configuration famous--the short barrel with the pistol grip. With a small loop attached to the grip, the weapon could be slung around the shoulder and hung parallel to the body. The setup could be concealed under a trenchcoat and deployed with a swiveling motion. Since you can just "whip it out" these are referred to as Whippet Guns. Using one of the older pump models like the Ithaca, a lot of lead can get sprayed in a hurry. (you didn't have to re-depress the trigger with each shot, you could just hold it down and the firing pin would trip as soon as the receiver closed in the breech. The illegal sale of a similar weapon was the excuse the FBI used to attack at Ruby Ridge.

The only real advantage is needing heavy firepower while being constricted by tight corners--longer barrels would cost time in maneuvering. If I were to have such a weapon, I'd probably want it for close-quarter use in the dark--not a whole lot of aiming necessary. A 1911 would do the job just as well if not better, methinks.


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## loki09789 (Jan 30, 2004)

wouldn't barrell length impact accuracy because of the loss of weight to settle the weapon down as well as less surfact area to hold onto for weapon stability?  I know that you can bench and accurately shoot pistols at surprisingly long ranges, but it still is more mechanically difficult to maintain consistant accuracy than with a long gun.

Paul


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## OULobo (Jan 30, 2004)

Just my opinion, but depending on your mentality of home defense, this could be a good choice (overlooking the legality issue). Very short-range accuracy (good for tight hallways), good spread (nice for low light) and less chance of over penetration (great for liability). Even the capacity might not be an issue for home defense.


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## OULobo (Jan 30, 2004)

Looks like psi_radar beat me to the post. 

To Loki. . . I don't think that repeat shot placment and recoil recovery are priorities when using a shot gun, unless you are duck hunting or shooting slugs.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *Just my opinion, but depending on your mentality of home defense, this could be a good choice (overlooking the legality issue). Very short-range accuracy (good for tight hallways), good spread (nice for low light) and less chance of over penetration (great for liability). Even the capacity might not be an issue for home defense. *



The only problem is that the legality issue exists, and if you do shoot someone with it, those pesky law enforcement agents are probably gonna wanna see what you did it with.  Seriously tho... My shotgun, in the configuration it is in, is TINY. There is plenty of room even in a hallway, and it IS legal.


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## loki09789 (Jan 30, 2004)

I would think that weapon control for tracking and quick target acquisition would though

Paul


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## loki09789 (Jan 30, 2004)

Sorry, that is within the context of home/personal defense


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## psi_radar (Jan 30, 2004)

OUlobo brought up a good point that I'd like to expand on. 



> Very short-range accuracy (good for tight hallways), good spread (nice for low light) and less chance of over penetration (great for liability).



The penetration aspect--I like the low penetration and quick dip in velocity of shotgun pellets to reduce any chance of bystanders or innocents getting hit.

I also like the wide variety of loads now available for shotguns, especially the non-lethal ones. Though I own a lot of guns, my morals are shifting a little bit and the lethality of bullets is starting to bother me, so it's a nice option to have rubber loads. Who knows, maybe it's a phase.


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## dearnis.com (Jan 30, 2004)

> wouldn't barrell length impact accuracy because of the loss of weight to settle the weapon down as well as less surfact area to hold onto for weapon stability? I know that you can bench and accurately shoot pistols at surprisingly long ranges, but it still is more mechanically difficult to maintain consistant accuracy than with a long gun.



This is shoot-ability or user friendliness, not inherent accuracy.  also the barrel itself is not gripped; the foreend is.

Penetration: Don't bet on a shotgun not penetrating.

Less lethal loads: yes these are availible on the open market.  Gang, you can kill someone with these very easily.  If you are messing with them, and end up in a shoot, I guarantee you will be asked what training you had, and will be painted as a rambo wanna-be.  

The accuracy and spread of shotgun pellets are grossly mis-represented  in the mass media.  Different guns will throw different loads to different points of aim, and with differing pattern spreads and densities.   If you keep a shotgun for defensive purposes (or for hunting for that matter) you need to do stationary target work at differing ranges until you have a good idea what works well for you and in your gun.


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## Stick Dummy (Jan 31, 2004)

I was  the impression that a cylinder choked barrel gave a radial pellet dispersion of approximately 1 3/4" per yard from the muzzle regardless of the barrel length........  

Either reduced recoil buckshot loads, or plain old large birdshot will work best at ranges under 15 yards, especially indoors from a defensive standpoint.

The main reason for the short barrels now so prevalent in the L-E community was for use during raids in confined quarters similar to the military transition to the M-4 type carbine (MOUT based) on the M-16 rifles. 

Pistol grips are a waste of time, and the conventional stock has been proven over time to be the best bet for 99% of shotgun usage from a defensive standpoint.

Comments?


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## dearnis.com (Jan 31, 2004)

The choke is only part of the equation.  Wad structure, buffered or non buffered payload, pellet deformation....
I suppose interior ballistics would be and exact science if only we understood all the variables.
The short barrels came about in part for entry guns and in part for ease of manipulation on vehicle entry/exit.
In the short barrels I am more impressed with the modified chokes; handy, but still put enough pellets where they need to go.  BUT I would not trade my slightly longer barrel Scattergun Tech. conversion; nine pellets in under 6 inches at 15 yards.


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## loki09789 (Feb 1, 2004)

When I use the term accuracy I am meaning in actual firing, not mechanical accuracy of a weapon.

As far as grip, I have seen back in my Military days, an overhand grip of the barrel/upper reciever/foregrip with the palm down (gloves of course) of shorty weapons.  This is what I picture if it is a sawed off barrel for control and control of the recoil.  

Is this specifically a 'double barrel' or an auto/pump that is being used for this entirely theoretical and hypothetical discussion
Gotta cover myself with the internet nazi's
Paul M


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## dearnis.com (Feb 1, 2004)

Overhand grip is pretty much going to prevent cycling a pump gun.  I have been speaking in terms of pumps simply because they are the most commonly used.
I suspect this grip would lead one to shoot an auto dry fast (remember, short barrell = no magazine extension); and shotguns are not fast to reload even w/ lots of practice.

And yes, there are the street-sweeper type weapons, but those still in circulation are pricey, and using one in an altercation might not be the best choice (PR and loss of innvestment rather than purely tactical reasons.


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## loki09789 (Feb 1, 2004)

Yeah the overhand grip is not a great one, but it is good for control of an auto, single/double barrel shotgun or an auto weapon when you get caught off guard.  It does work (seen it in action on an immediate action drill live fire exercise), to reduce the barrel jump, but there definite draw backs.  You are firing from the hip or armpit tuck, so shooting accuracy is reduced,  plus you are suppose to switch to conventional shooting at the first chance.  This could be tricky and lead to weapon drop...  Not to mention the ouch factor if you use it out of instinct/habit without a glove.

Paul Martin


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## psi_radar (Feb 2, 2004)

> Penetration: Don't bet on a shotgun not penetrating.



Of course this is all a matter of degrees. By its ballistic nature, of course a shotgun pellet penetrates, but it is also much lighter and loses energy much faster than say a .45, 9mm or rifle round.



> Less lethal loads: yes these are availible on the open market. Gang, you can kill someone with these very easily. If you are messing with them, and end up in a shoot, I guarantee you will be asked what training you had, and will be painted as a rambo wanna-be.



Firearms are by nature dangerous regardless of their loads. The less-lethal loads must have been named by lawyers, because they're exactly that--capable of killing but not as likely as metal rounds. I disagree that using these as a self-defense measure in the home will paint a negative picture of yourself in the eyes of the law. However, if you run around using less-lethal loads as a punitive weapon outside the home, well then you should be painted as a Rambo-wannabe. Use your Taser instead!--Kidding!



> The accuracy and spread of shotgun pellets are grossly mis-represented in the mass media. Different guns will throw different loads to different points of aim, and with differing pattern spreads and densities. If you keep a shotgun for defensive purposes (or for hunting for that matter) you need to do stationary target work at differing ranges until you have a good idea what works well for you and in your gun.



I think it goes without saying that everyone should be familiar with their weapons, including regular range practice. A four-foot piece of butcher's paper set at 15 and 25 yards will reveal the spread characteristics of your shotgun and preferred ammo.


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