# knife on the ground



## lonecoyote

Most of the clips of knife arts I've seen involve stand up fighting. Does anyone do any groundwork with the knife, perhaps involving accessing your knife while having someone in the guard, being under the mount, or any kind of flow or trap work on the ground? How about how to fight on the ground against someone you've taken down who comes up with a knife?


----------



## MA-Caver

Heh, I've found some of my best (knife) work is on the ground. Got into a tussel with someone and I ended up pinning him and his knife against his cheek... stopped the fight reeeally quick it did.  
But all that wrasslin on the ground makes for very dangerous situations and for those who do train with edged weapons should certianly train while prone on the ground with someone else trying to pin or whatever on you. Pardon the pun but it's a dual edged sword ground fighting with a knife/blade.


----------



## Andrew Green

I find that if someone has a knife I'm safer if I can get them on the ground.  More control.

 Control the weapon hand, make them let go of it, that's basically how it goes.

 As for pulling a knife when you are on the ground, be careful about when you do it.  If you do it when the other guy is in a control position and he sees you do it... well, you probably just "donated" a knife to him.

 But the absolute worst thing you can do is take the word of some guy on the internet, a better bet would be getting some training knives and doing some sparring... ok, a lot of sparring


----------



## arnisador

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I find that if someone has a knife I'm safer if I can get them on the ground.


----------



## Cryozombie

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I find that if someone has a knife I'm safer if I can get them on the ground.


 I find that if someone has a knife i am safer if I can get them on the ground while I run 15 feet away from them...


----------



## kroh

See angry guy with knife... 

Position automobile or mack truck in between me and said Whacko ( this is a technical term for knife wielding assailant )
     *Pull Firearm
     *Put Whacko on ground with said firearm
     *Call Police and tell them some WHacko tried to steal my knife so I shot him.
     *Wait for Police and mass media coverage

Or something to that effect...

Wrestling with any type of sharp object is dangerous.  I have some friends in the Suio Ryu who train grappling while wearing short swords ( wakizashi ).  Now that is good clean fun.  

Any time you add a blade to a ground fight you are asking for a one dead and one wounded scenario.  There will always be exceptions but that type of training is something that should be done to familliarize the students with the dangers associated with "knife wrestling."

If a knife fight goes to the ground...I would rather some one else be involved... 

Regards, 
Walt


----------



## Andrew Green

Of course, running away is always safer, but that doesn't make for fun training 

 Square off, instructor says "Go!" and both fighters turn and run...

 But given the choice of standing up and trying to hit the guy, or taking him down, I'll take the takedown if I can, easier to control the guy, and more importantly his weapon hand...

 Hard part is getting in and getting him down safely, for that you need basically a 2 on 1 and that is usually where we get hit, once that is established things seem to go better...  in that we don't get cut as often...


----------



## lonecoyote

I'm not saying it's a great idea to go and do knife stuff on the ground, just saying it can happen, it's a situation that has happened to others before and could happen again, and so it might be a good idea to train for it. Having a big guy mounted, pounding me to death is one of the few situations where I actually would draw my knife. Are any of the stand up flow drills applicable to the ground?


----------



## Flatlander

I would say they're applicable insofar as they will make sense in the right context.   For example, one person sitting on the other's chest.  The two involved would need to be in some position that allows them to be able to execute the drill.

We do some of the cutting patterns and forms while lying on the ground, getting up from the ground, etc. - basically more about working on finding good positioning and balance while transitioning to and from the ground, but, that's solitary work, and not really what I think you're talking about.

I'd say, once you hit the ground in training, you're probably going to find more value out of a spar situation than a drill situation.  Do the majority of your drilling standing up, and you'll work the sensitivity, flow, disarming and destruction type of training.  The skills should manifest on the ground when you get into a spar.

That's my take on it, but I'm no teacher.....:asian:


----------



## Andrew Green

Nah, knife drills are important on the ground too, gotta learn to effectively isolate and control that weapon.

 You also got to drill taking them down safely, and retaining control when you hit the ground.


----------



## Loki

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I find that if someone has a knife I'm safer if I can get them on the ground.  More control.


 *Another mouth drops open*

 Safer on the ground with a knife? How? What gives you more control?

 It may be important to drill, but I certainly wouldn't call it a desireable situation. You have much less maneuverability and the knife is perilously close to you. I'd like to hear a more thorough explanation of why ground work against a knife is safer.


----------



## Flatlander

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Nah, knife drills are important on the ground too, gotta learn to effectively isolate and control that weapon.


And which drills are those?  Would you run us through your groundwork knife drills?


----------



## Andrew Green

Loki said:
			
		

> Safer on the ground with a knife? How? What gives you more control?


 On the ground there is almost always someone with more control then the other person.  If I am mounted on you, I have more control then you.

 Standing and seperated you are free to move in any way you like, and have many options available at any given time.  On the ground you will only have a few, or if things are going my way, none.  It is more predictable in a sense.

 Of course if someone has a knife, and has a dominate position you're going to be bleeding a lot...  But if you can dominate you will be a lot safer then you would on your feet.


----------



## Andrew Green

Flatlander said:
			
		

> And which drills are those?  Would you run us through your groundwork knife drills?


 Kinda hard to put drills into words, especially when we might have different language regarding what we are doing...

 But, for starters:

 Everything starts with a takedown, and that has to be a takedown that doesn't get you needing stiches.  My preference is to enter into a 2 on 1, either side of the arm.  Lock the wrist down and control the shoulder of the weapon arm.

 From there you got to take the guy down, without loosing control of the weapon arm.

 If you achieve that the hardest part is over.  Depending on what you did to toss him he may already have lost the weapon, but don't count on that...

 Now you need to either completely imobolise the arm in a way that you can still attack, or attack the arm.  Wrist locks, chicken wings, keylocks.... not likely straight arm bars or bicep splices, but it all depends on what you did to take the guy down.

 If you want to look at when someone pulls a knife on you when you are already on the ground, that's a different issue.

 If he is in a dominate position, you are already loosing, and if he has a weapon and you are already loosing... well, it's just not gonna be your day is it?

 If you are winning, the guys is in trouble, chances of him being able to pull out a concealed knife (and likely have to open it up) smoothly and without you (the guy punching him in the face) knowing about it is not that good.

 But give it a try, get a training blade, have your partner conceal it, choose a starting position and go.  Once he starts going for it get control of that arm and don't let him use it, get it away.

 Or, do it wear you know he has a knife, stick it in his belt or pocket and don't let him get it.  He tries too.

 Simple drills, and if you don't have a good knowledge of grappling they won't be of any good, that has to be there first.


----------



## Cruentus

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> Most of the clips of knife arts I've seen involve stand up fighting. Does anyone do any groundwork with the knife, perhaps involving accessing your knife while having someone in the guard, being under the mount, or any kind of flow or trap work on the ground? How about how to fight on the ground against someone you've taken down who comes up with a knife?



Knife work on the ground is very important to train, because ending up on the ground is a reality in combat, regardless of your environment.

Paul


----------



## tradrockrat

Knives suck.  They hurt too.  Run away or bring superior firepower.






 Having said that, much of what I train to deal with a knife involves either disarming him standing, or taking him to the ground. I believe this is what Mr. Green is refering to. If you can't run away, and you need to control an attacker, you will have to grapple (this is assuming a quick attempt to disarm from a distance doesn't work). At that point, if you are serious winning the fight you will do whatever it is you feel you do best. If that is throwing, you'll throw, if it's ground fighting you'll do that. I prefer isolating the knife hand and "guiding" my opponent to the ground - hard. At least it's worked before.

 EDIT:  Forgot - nothing will work if you don't train it and spar.  Use a partner and practice.


----------



## Flatlander

> Kinda hard to put drills into words, especially when we might have different language regarding what we are doing...


What you seem to be describing here sounds to me like what I would define as a type of spar.  In referring to drills, I meant a repetitive, predictable sequence of movements which allows both (or all 3, or whatever) partners to get a better sense of the flow of the situation, and build a little muscle memory.  I apologize if we have miscommunicated here.  However, I agree completely: much benefit and learning will take place by just grabbing some training blades and rolling.  I also agree that a good foundation in grappling will go a long way to developing your knifework on the ground.

 But, as I said previously, I haven't seen a lot of _drills_ that are applicable to ground work specifically, rather, the drilling that I've done _could_ be executed on the ground, but in a limited context.


----------



## shesulsa

Flatlander said:
			
		

> What you seem to be describing here sounds to me like what I would define as a type of spar. In referring to drills, I meant a repetitive, predictable sequence of movements which allows both (or all 3, or whatever) partners to get a better sense of the flow of the situation, and build a little muscle memory. I apologize if we have miscommunicated here. However, I agree completely: much benefit and learning will take place by just grabbing some training blades and rolling. I also agree that a good foundation in grappling will go a long way to developing your knifework on the ground.
> 
> But, as I said previously, I haven't seen a lot of _drills_ that are applicable to ground work specifically, rather, the drilling that I've done _could_ be executed on the ground, but in a limited context.


 Drill techniques on the ground with a practice knife. When we're talking knife fighting, it's the same as all fighting; each person will have their own skill level and set.  Some will flail and it will be hard to control their weapon arm. Others will be precise and strong. 

 Hmmm ... grappling with a knife ... sounds educational.


----------



## Knarfan

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Nah, knife drills are important on the ground too, gotta learn to effectively isolate and control that weapon.
> 
> You also got to drill taking them down safely, and retaining control when you hit the ground.


Great point!
I know that it sounds strange to most people but Andrew brings up some great points about training for ground fighting senarios. I don't think that he is saying if somone pulls a knife on you take them down but, in some situations that may not be a bad stratagy. In Sayoc Kali we train our drills & freefighting for any possible position that you could find yourself in. In a fight you may not be the one who decides where the fight ends up. I myself have a decent grappling background & I am pretty good on the ground, with or without the blade. Of course it's going to be dangerous, knives are dangerous. IMO you should prepare for everything. Check out the May 2005 issue of black belt mag. "Anatomy of a knife fight" by knife designer Ernest Emerson. He believes that the ground may be your best option. It's an interesting article. He touches on alot of the points that Andrew brings up.


----------



## arnisandyz

When the Sayoc clan used to come down to Florida for thier SamaSamas Tom Kier did a nice demo of some of the knife templates on the ground, very eye opening!


----------



## Knarfan

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> When the Sayoc clan used to come down to Florida for thier SamaSamas Tom Kier did a nice demo of some of the knife templates on the ground, very eye opening!


Tom has some interesting concept drills. He has taught me a whole lot about grappling with weapons among other things. A big part of Sayoc training is close quarters combat & grappling,(vertical & horizonal). Of course nobody wants to be that close to a sharp blade but you never know what position you might end up in. Another art that has some interesting edge weapons grappling is Silat.


----------



## arnisador

Dr. Gyi has taught some on-th-ground techniques.

For me, going to the ground with a knifer would be a last resort, unless I had him on his stomach with me on his back or at least having an arm bar.


----------



## Loki

I agree with the importance of knife on the ground training, but I still feel it's somewhat reckless to think of it as a goal. Groundwork is involves closeness, the last thing you want with an edged weapon, moreso if it doesn't start off in your hand.


----------



## tradrockrat

arnisador said:
			
		

> Dr. Gyi has taught some on-the-ground techniques.
> 
> For me, going to the ground with a knifer would be a last resort, unless I had him on his stomach with me on his back or at least having an arm bar.


 He sure has, and they work well in practice, though I've never used them live.  Many of the take downs I've learned came from him as well, but the isolation techniques I used once in an actual fight (BTW, it put my attacker on the ground on his stomach with me on his back.  His arm was bared across my knee) came from Phil Ross in New Jersey and Pat Finley from Baltimore.  Both of these gentleman train in Bando, but also train outside the system.  Pat is a student of Sifu Inosanto.


----------



## Knarfan

arnisador said:
			
		

> Dr. Gyi has taught some on-th-ground techniques.
> 
> For me, going to the ground with a knifer would be a last resort, unless I had him on his stomach with me on his back or at least having an arm bar.


Good point but I think that you also have to be prepared to flow, tap or transition to a second or third option even when your on the ground. This is where practicing your flow drills or freeflowing on the ground or standing can help just incase the armbar or first control move dosen't work. If you don't develope sensitivity & flow nothing will work anyway. You really have to be able to decieve the person attacking you for a split second to gain any type of control & you should assume that the control you have is only going to last a couple of seconds. If you notice most times when people do knife demos the knifer attacks the other person pulls off some control move & the guy with the knife is on the ground crying for mercy. What you will find out if you do alot of training is that there are plenty of control oportunities available but, they only last a second or two before the guy can wiggle his way out(unless you have a big physical avantage or a superior skill level) but, the reality is that is the best & most realistic thing you can hope for because that split second of control is probably going to save your life or get you to the next move or give you the ability or opportunity to flee or draw a weapon. Also IMO, you either have to be completly out of range or in close range for any kind of tapping or control move to work. If you stay in that middle range your going to get sliced up fast. Once you make contact you have to use sticky energy to track the blade & when your doing your parries you have to cork screw toward the opponants body with some controlled forward energy. If you just pass the blade with no forward energy you can't track the knifers loop energy. You have to slow him down. Practicing your flow drills on the ground helps you understand this concept because alot of times you can't move your body out of the way when your on the ground. I know, it all sounds good in practice but, I practice this stuff all the time against resisting opponants. Why do I feel like I just put a bullseye on my chest
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ?


----------



## arnisador

Full agreement *sayoc FF*. Your comments about range and the transient nature of control reflect the ones I was talking about today when teaching. I type with two fingers so some of my posts aren't as detailed as they could be!


----------



## Knarfan

arnisador said:
			
		

> Full agreement *sayoc FF*. Your comments about range and the transient nature of control reflect the ones I was talking about today when teaching. I type with two fingers so some of my posts aren't as detailed as they could be!


Thanks Arnisador!
I'm always alittle leary when talking about knife training because even if your proficiant you still have to be extremly lucky to survive & it would be really stupid to attempt it unless there is absolutly no other options. There is just so much that can go wrong. I think that the temperary control & the energy flow   that we are talking about is a good starting point for understanding.

:asian:


----------



## arnisador

Oh yes, "for the unarmed man there is no defense against the knife" as it has been said. Of course it's a bit too strong to say _that_, but it gets the idea across.

Some relevant older threads:
 Why "Knife arts" will get you killed
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9429&page=2&pp=15

Street defense unarmed vs. knife (yikes!)
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2552

What is your view?
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=526


----------



## Jerry

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> Does anyone do any groundwork with the knife, perhaps involving accessing your knife while having someone in the guard, being under the mount, or any kind of flow or trap work on the ground? How about how to fight on the ground against someone you've taken down who comes up with a knife?


 For me: Yes, I do practice armed groundwork, no I do not practice it with someone in my guard as I don't use the guard, yes I do practice if from being mounted as others do use the mount, yes I do fight with me, him or us both on the ground, with he, I or both armed with knives.



			
				Andrew Green said:
			
		

> On the ground there is almost always someone with more control then the other person. If I am mounted on you, I have more control then you.


 That would depend heavily. Your mount is what, middle of the chest? One hand of mine is at my waist bhind your back? What is the control there?

Going to turn around to watch that hand? What about the one in front of you?

The problems with the guard are even more exagerated. The position works because it gives your opponent poor leverage and relatively rugged targets. A knife changes taht entirely.



> Of course if someone has a knife, and has a dominate position you're going to be bleeding a lot... But if you can dominate you will be a lot safer then you would on your feet.


 I don't agree here. I'd much prefer to be on my feet and controlling my opponent's knife than on the ground with him. My options become as limited as his (and then let's consider the multiple attacker problem).

Now don't get my wrong. It's quite possible to control a knife on the ground. It's also quite possible to control it standing. My problem is with your assertion that the ground a clearly superior place. I don't agree.



			
				Loki said:
			
		

> I agree with the importance of knife on the ground training, but I still feel it's somewhat reckless to think of it as a goal. Groundwork is involves closeness, the last thing you want with an edged weapon, moreso if it doesn't start off in your hand.


 I fear I'm the voice of dissent yet again. I only feel a modicum of safety in two spots where knives are involved. Far away and completely smothered. It's that middle range I fear. 

I do think that grappling in a neccessairy component of anti-knife work. I need to control the knife and the only way to do that right off (shy of a lucky strike) is to grapple. I simply don't support the ground as the preference.


----------



## tradrockrat

arnisador said:
			
		

> Oh yes, "for the unarmed man there is no defense against the knife" as it has been said. Of course it's a bit too strong to say _that_, but it gets the idea across.
> 
> Some relevant older threads:
> Why "Knife arts" will get you killed
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9429&page=2&pp=15
> 
> Street defense unarmed vs. knife (yikes!)
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2552
> 
> What is your view?
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=526


 
 Thanks for the links.  It's important for people to realize that you'll never really "win" against a knife, though you can survive.


----------



## Andrew Green

Jerry said:
			
		

> That would depend heavily. Your mount is what, middle of the chest? One hand of mine is at my waist bhind your back? What is the control there?


 umm... no, but don't take my word for it.  Glove up and give it a try...


----------



## Jerry

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> umm... no, but don't take my word for it. Glove up and give it a try...


 I have. I've not done it against you mounting, and would be hapy to, but am not about to head up to Canada for the opportunity and doubt you are coming down here. 

Are you simply asserting a lower mount (say the hips)? That would interfere with a belt-draw but not a boot draw.






I'm gonna take a wild stab and assume your mount generally resembles this. Let me know if I'm wrong in that assumption.


----------



## Loki

Did some sparring VS knife with a friend today. We got to a ground situation and I stabbed her in the heart (I was knifeman). I still can't see the pros of going to the ground.


----------



## Andrew Green

Loki said:
			
		

> Did some sparring VS knife with a friend today. We got to a ground situation and I stabbed her in the heart (I was knifeman). I still can't see the pros of going to the ground.


 It helps IF you are a superior groundfighter and can take them down to a controlling position.  If you can do that you are much safer then on then you would be standing as you can control them better.  But there is that "if" there, if you are not a better groundfighter going to the ground is a bad idea.


----------



## Andrew Green

Jerry said:
			
		

> Are you simply asserting a lower mount (say the hips)? That would interfere with a belt-draw but not a boot draw.


 I'm asserting that if someone that knows what they are doing is mounted on you, you will not have a easy time drawing a knife from anywhere, even if they are not punching you in the face really hard at the time (which they most likely will be doing)

 and a static picture will not show that, especially one of two guys training Sport Juijitsu.

 Plus, putting your foot in a position that your hand can reach it, and reaching back for it, leaves open a couple of choices for locks.


----------



## tradrockrat

Rereading the posts here, there seems to be some cross talking about exactly what is meant by groundfighting with a knife.  IMHO, there are two distinct types of groundfighting with a weapon.

In the first case, an attacker comes at you with a weapon (knife for the purposes of this thread) drawn and the resultant struggles winds up going to the ground.  In this case, if you are concentrating on a mount or dominant position, you are most likely already dead and don't know it.  Realistically, if you haven't already at least partially isolated the weapon, your attacker is vigorously sticking into you repeatedly.  For me, in this case I would have already tried to disarm my assailent before closing the distance and grappling.  Assuming this didn't work, my entire effort would be to isolate the weapon and break something he needs to hold on to his weapon - ie his, fingers, wrist, elbow, or shoulder.  Of course, at the same time, I'd need to protect myself from his "other weapons" like his fist and elbows, etc.  I've had two encounters with a knife, one I avoided fighting entirely, one was a case like this.  I got cut on both hands, but I lived.  He went to the hospital and later to jail. (BTW- it's really hard to hold onto somebody when your hands are covered with blood)

The second type of ground fighting I've never encountered personally, but it involves grappling on the ground AND THEN your opponent pulls a knife.  This requires a whole new set of strategies which, again IMHO, reside mainly in not allowing him to get that knife out.  I honestly feel that I don't have the skills to handle the situation if he gets that knife to bear.  It's too close and too hard to control.  Unless I was able to disengage and get up, I feel that I would in all likelyhood die.  Therefore, if I was able to recognize what he was trying to do - a BIG "if" - I would either attack his limb (break something) or get the hell off of him.


----------



## Knarfan

tradrockrat said:
			
		

> Rereading the posts here, there seems to be some cross talking about exactly what is meant by groundfighting with a knife. IMHO, there are two distinct types of groundfighting with a weapon.
> 
> In the first case, an attacker comes at you with a weapon (knife for the purposes of this thread) drawn and the resultant struggles winds up going to the ground. In this case, if you are concentrating on a mount or dominant position, you are most likely already dead and don't know it. Realistically, if you haven't already at least partially isolated the weapon, your attacker is vigorously sticking into you repeatedly. For me, in this case I would have already tried to disarm my assailent before closing the distance and grappling. Assuming this didn't work, my entire effort would be to isolate the weapon and break something he needs to hold on to his weapon - ie his, fingers, wrist, elbow, or shoulder. Of course, at the same time, I'd need to protect myself from his "other weapons" like his fist and elbows, etc. I've had two encounters with a knife, one I avoided fighting entirely, one was a case like this. I got cut on both hands, but I lived. He went to the hospital and later to jail. (BTW- it's really hard to hold onto somebody when your hands are covered with blood)
> 
> The second type of ground fighting I've never encountered personally, but it involves grappling on the ground AND THEN your opponent pulls a knife. This requires a whole new set of strategies which, again IMHO, reside mainly in not allowing him to get that knife out. I honestly feel that I don't have the skills to handle the situation if he gets that knife to bear. It's too close and too hard to control. Unless I was able to disengage and get up, I feel that I would in all likelyhood die. Therefore, if I was able to recognize what he was trying to do - a BIG "if" - I would either attack his limb (break something) or get the hell off of him.


Good idea getting off the ride if you can. If your on top & you don't feel comfortable you should flee. Trying to break a limb or control a limb is a good idea but, your chances of that might not be that good(especially if a blade is involved) IMO, you would have to have a hugh physical advantage over the person or some incredible skills. I train with some MA who don't really have alot of weapons training & to be honest they may be the easiest people to cut. It's not because they aren't great martial artist or superior fighters, it's because they don't have alot of weapons training period. It's really a mindset that seperates the two. Here is one example or reason that I think this happens. Someone who trains with a knife is waiting for the person that they are attacking to commit to a limb, reach, grab or throw a commited strike, it's called a reflexive response. Unless you have alot of sensitivity training & hours & hours of weapons training including knife grappling drills you probably won't get past your first move, because that is what the knifer is setting you up for. Now if you take on the mindset of the attacker & be the one doing the decieving you can get some control but, it's not going to happen on your first move you have to be able to flow into a position of control & that happens through intense training with weapons & people who are very good at attacking with weapons then you can start to understand the sensitivity & timing that it takes to gain control. It's not the same control that most people are used to. there are alot of intermediate controls that you miss that are really important when you are trying to control a knife arm. The reason that I am bringing up these points is because I want to drive home the fact that knife grappling drills are very important for survival. Even if you don't ever intened to go to the ground you need to feel what it's like, you will get some valuble lessons. My theory is that if you want to have any kind of realistic chance of survival against a weapons attack you have to keep an open mind & really examine all possibilities including, grappling your way to survival. Also that was a good point about the blood on your hands, makes it kinda hard to gain any limb control.


----------



## Jerry

> I'm asserting that if someone that knows what they are doing is mounted on you, you will not have a easy time drawing a knife from anywhere, even if they are not punching you in the face really hard at the time (which they most likely will be doing)


 I'm having trouble imaginng how you are punching at my face while grappling something which is near the ground and behind your back. It seems that one or the other will not work. Do you have an illustration?



> Plus, putting your foot in a position that your hand can reach it, and reaching back for it, leaves open a couple of choices for locks.


 I'm sorry, I see the same problem here. I don't see how you are reaching behind your back to deal with where one hand and leg are without loosing your mount and ignoring the hand that is up near my own head. By mounting the middle of my body, half my body is neccessarily behind you. Your best bet would seem to focus on control of both my arms, try to get me over for a back-mount; but in that case the knife may never come out (and the question was about if it did).

I think working a knife from a mount (assuming it's out and in front of you) is a mixed bag. You've got a great position, but one that is comprimised if you really go to smother the knife well.


----------



## tradrockrat

sayoc FF said:
			
		

> ... I want to drive home the fact that knife grappling drills are very important for survival. Even if you don't ever intened to go to the ground you need to feel what it's like, you will get some valuble lessons. My theory is that if you want to have any kind of realistic chance of survival against a weapons attack you have to keep an open mind & really examine all possibilities including, grappling your way to survival.


I think this is the best point made in this thread yet.  If you don't train for it, you can't possibly be prepared for it.


----------



## Andrew Green

Jerry said:
			
		

> I'm having trouble imaginng how you are punching at my face while grappling something which is near the ground and behind your back. It seems that one or the other will not work. Do you have an illustration?


 Try it, get someone to mount you and start throwing bombs, see how effectively you can pull a knife from your belt or boot as the above poster suggested while that is going on, without getting knocked out.



> I'm sorry, I see the same problem here. I don't see how you are reaching behind your back to deal with where one hand and leg are without loosing your mount and ignoring the hand that is up near my own head.


 So, give up mount, take the chicken wing and pop the shoulder if you like...

 or use the hooks and attack the ankles (keeping mount)

 or any other number of nasty things that you can do to someone who compromises there position while you are mounted on them.  

 Who said you had to stay mounted?



> By mounting the middle of my body, half my body is neccessarily behind you. Your best bet would seem to focus on control of both my arms, try to get me over for a back-mount; but in that case the knife may never come out (and the question was about if it did).


 Yup, the chances of the guy getting the opportunity to reach back like that are not good, and if he does he opens himself up.



> I think working a knife from a mount (assuming it's out and in front of you) is a mixed bag. You've got a great position, but one that is comprimised if you really go to smother the knife well.


 Not compromised, attack the arm and retain control.

 Again I stress, going to the ground if you are not a somewhat experienced grappler isn't going to work.  Stick too what you know and where you are comfortable.


----------



## Cryozombie

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Try it, get someone to mount you and start throwing bombs, see how effectively you can pull a knife from your belt or boot as the above poster suggested while that is going on, without getting knocked out.


Ok... so if you are mounted, this is possible IF you can disrupt the mounted attackers position and balance FIRST... Difficult to explain what I was doing in words, but I will try... As the fist comes down if you can rediret one of the first blows up and out and use your hips to disrupt his balance pitching him forward up over your chest... you buy a few seconds to draw a weapon or whatever. Its NOT EASY to do, but I see its possible. What you CANNOT do is just draw the weapon and ignore the attacks, you HAVE TO disrupt them first.

EDIT: When I say up over your chest, I dont actually mean you are throwing them off you, just displacing their hips forward, and making them lean, possibly (most of the time I did it) using at least one hand to catch their balance.


----------



## Andrew Green

Possible, yes, but what you are suggesting is tricky to do, if they where to be able to do it they would have to have some ground training.  Someone with a good mount is also a little trickier to send flying forward like that.

 So again, in order to fight a weapon without one you need to have a large skill advantage.  Doesn't matter where you try to fight them, if you don't have that you will loose.  If you have it you have a chance, but are likely still gonna get cut once or twice even if you win.

 Personally, I prefer to get control of the arm and take them down.  On the ground it is far easier to control them and isolate that weapon, attack the arm and get the weapon away.

 Standing you have no control, they can swing the blade wildly and likely still get you once or twice.


----------



## Tgace

I think that not training groundfighting techniques against the knife would be foolish. You should be prepared for anything. However I would be cautious about training any techniques that have going to the ground against the knifeman as a primary goal. A knife is a contact weapon and the more "contact" you have with the opponent the more you are going to get cut, and odds are you are going to get cut no matter what you do anyway. For a trained knifeman, one knife hand switch and it can be all over.


----------



## Jerry

> Standing you have no control, they can swing the blade wildly and likely still get you once or twice.


 I think this may be our problem, and tell me if it sounds likely to you.

I'm a comptent grappler, who focuses mostly on upright work. I'm comfortable controlling a knkife while standing (as comfortable as I'll ever be when an opponent has a blade). I spend less time aggressively on the ground, but enough to feel reasonably that I can get to a knife while having someone in me and pummeling.

You are a competent grappler who focuses mostly on ground work. You are about as comfortable upright as I am in a mount (you can do it, but it's far from your strong suiete). As such, you can easily imagine getting a knife to move from someone grappling you upright.

I am surprised that you don't feel you could get out a knife if someone had mounted you. Do you feel you can survive and recover from being mounted at all, or has that been "instant KO" for you in your experience (emphasis on "instant")?



> Try it, get someone to mount you and start throwing bombs, see how effectively you can pull a knife from your belt or boot as the above poster suggested while that is going on, without getting knocked out.


 To be entirely honest, I don't want to fidn out so much that I'm willing to take the beating that would be neccessairy to prove the point either way (unpadded on a hard surface, do I go unconsious before I get the stab). 



> So, give up mount, take the chicken wing and pop the shoulder if you like...


 I do agree that controlling the knife-arm is paramount. I'm sure you are compitent at doing that on the ground. My bigger concern is if the knife comes out while you are already on the ground and (presumably) not controlling the knife arm initially (in "ground and pound" you've blocked off their arms from getting good hits on you, but you're not typically controlling them unless you are engaging in another grapple (such as to flip them on their stomach)).



> Who said you had to stay mounted?


 No one. The question (as I understand it) is whether it's a preferred position to be in when the knife appears. I don't think it is, as I don't think it generally has enough arm control / positional control (by the latter, I mean it's hard to move away / move him away very fast, which can be done in upright grapples). In short, it would be very easy to have the weapon mobile and on an relatively immobile portion of your body which he can find by contact with him (your legs, your groin, your back).



> Not compromised, attack the arm and retain control.


 Your weight's forward and you are subject to being bridged. Obviously, there's a counter to that, and a coutner to the counter.


----------



## lonecoyote

How about shrimping to the side where you're drawing from, if a belt draw, if someone has a mount, you carry your knife on your right side, you shrimp to have your right side underneath you, throwing your left hand up over your head after you shrimp out of the mount, and drawing w/your right. Yeah it might not be very fast, but with your knife underneath your body on the side, the odds are that the other guy won't get it. If you just buck your hips, they slide up higher, then you're really messed up cause how are you going to get your hands down to your hips?


----------



## guromkb

Very interesting thread...are we basing this on theory or actual experiance in grappling against a knifer. Are you considering the variables? I have been attacked and damn near died from a knife wound (collapsed right lung) and guess what there is no telling what your gonna do until the time it actually happens. And yes I did try and take the man to the ground and use my size to nullify it and YES I was a dumb *** for doing so. While I was grappling with this guy all I could think of was to control that arm with the blade in his hand and then WHAM he pulled a blade out of his other jean pocket and nailed me. You see theres to many things that can go wrong. So is it important to learn how to grapple against a knifer IMHO maybe, but I will never ever go down to the ground with a knifer...learn how to stun and run and if your lucky and God's on your side you may get out of there with a cut or two but you damn sure dont wanna end up on a respirator like I did. Theory is one thing but life is another. You wanna make your scenario real, get yourself a nice pointed non edged wooden training knife and go for real and then tell me how you fair ..Im sure it wont be well.The blade is an unforgiving ***** and if you **** around with a knifer your betting your life that your flesh is stronger than that blade , odds are against ya.

PS if your dueling , your wrong, if it's an ambush with intent SAYONARA...


----------



## Tgace

Normally I take the "been there done that" posts with a grain of salt, but that post above impresses me as the real deal, 100% truth...words of wisdom there.


----------



## Cryozombie

guromkb said:
			
		

> Very interesting thread...are we basing this on theory or actual experiance in grappling against a knifer. Are you considering the variables? I have been attacked and damn near died from a knife wound (collapsed right lung) and guess what there is no telling what your gonna do until the time it actually happens. And yes I did try and take the man to the ground and use my size to nullify it and YES I was a dumb *** for doing so. While I was grappling with this guy all I could think of was to control that arm with the blade in his hand and then WHAM he pulled a blade out of his other jean pocket and nailed me. You see theres to many things that can go wrong. So is it important to learn how to grapple against a knifer IMHO maybe, but I will never ever go down to the ground with a knifer...learn how to stun and run and if your lucky and God's on your side you may get out of there with a cut or two but you damn sure dont wanna end up on a respirator like I did. Theory is one thing but life is another. You wanna make your scenario real, get yourself a nice pointed non edged wooden training knife and go for real and then tell me how you fair ..Im sure it wont be well.The blade is an unforgiving ***** and if you **** around with a knifer your betting your life that your flesh is stronger than that blade , odds are against ya.
> 
> PS if your dueling , your wrong, if it's an ambush with intent SAYONARA...


 You know whats great about this post?  It illustrates in real life somthing my instructor has told me in the dojo...

 If I guy is carrying a knife, there is a good chance he has a second one.


----------



## guromkb

Technopunk said:
			
		

> You know whats great about this post? It illustrates in real life somthing my instructor has told me in the dojo...
> 
> If I guy is carrying a knife, there is a good chance he has a second one.


Agreed ....I carry 2 blades always and most of the FMA stylists I know do as well. The aformentioned incident years ago when I as a student of Judo and Karate..I had obtained blackbelt status in Goju and was training Judo. From that day forward I redirected my training towards the Filipino blade oriented arts and have totally adopted a survivalists mentality as opposed to that of a badass ( which unfortunately some younger men posses...10 ft. tall and bullet proof is a lie folks). When you deal with edged weapons your dealing with eminent death and severe injury..as Tuhon Leo Gaje told me " If your lucky enough to survive a knife attack or fight , you may get better but you will never be well" Profound words me thinks.

If it smells like fish and tastes like fish by god it's fish , use that gut instinct it works.


----------



## Cruentus

As to grappling and knifework, I think it still should be addressed. One doesn't need to grapple like one is entering the UFC, but one does need to learn to grapple enough to prevent getting dumped on the ground in a less dominant position in a fight, or to prevent from being overtaken on the ground if you end up there.

Where grappling fits in with knife work, and how it should be trained if one is preparing for what may happened in a fight, is the scenario where someone try's to pull a knife, or pick something up that resembles a knife, while on the ground, or while in the standing grappling range. You could also consider if someone dumps you on the ground, or you trip, and his friend gets involved, and he is armed with something sharp. You have one guy grappling up on you, and another that is now armed with a sharp tool; not a good situation to be in, but better to work out these problems as much as possible in training rather then to be stuck with whatever happenes if this does occur in a fight. There are live exercises and scenario sparring type drills that can address these situation in training. And, these types of situations need to be addressed, or one is missing a major part of what may happened in reality. Remember: we don't rise to our expectations, we fall to our level of training and preperation.

As to the idea of attempting to grapple with a knife wielding assailent as you would if you were grappling on the mat in a match - this is something I would not recommend. The variables are entirely different in reality then on the mat, making this approach a very bad tactic that can get you killed. If all one focuses on is his hammer, then every problem begins to look like a nail. There are a lot of other tools in the toolbox that should be used against a knife wielding assailent, starting with the most noble tactic of running to safety.

Lastly, it is still important to grapple... period. "Anti-grappling" starts with learning how to grapple. You can't learn to deal with a grappling situation without getting on the mat and understanding how to utilize your body in the clinch or on the ground. The solutions to the problems of grappling in a fight must to start with grappling in practice.

Just my extended thoughts on the subject. Take it for what it is worth to you...  

Yours,

Paul


----------



## arnisador

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Try it, get someone to mount you and start throwing bombs, see how effectively you can pull a knife from your belt or boot as the above poster suggested while that is going on, without getting knocked out.


 I dunno...people last a long time on the bottom, it seems to me, putting their arms up to protect their faces. How long does it take to put one arm up and use the other to deploy a knife and put it in someone's thigh?

 You can't trade blows against a knife. Positional thinking of the BJJ sort isn't enough.


----------



## arnisador

Technopunk said:
			
		

> If I guy is carrying a knife, there is a good chance he has a second one.


  Yes. I drive this point home with students to the point that I fear I become boring...there's *ALWAYS* another weapon. If you were going out at night looking for trouble, wouldn't _you_ bring a backup?


----------



## Andrew Green

arnisador said:
			
		

> I dunno...people last a long time on the bottom, it seems to me, putting their arms up to protect their faces. How long does it take to put one arm up and use the other to deploy a knife and put it in someone's thigh?


 People last a long time there IF they are very skilled and no what to do to survive.  If that is the case, and they have a weapon you're gonna get cut up.

 The ONLY way to beat a opponent with a weapon is too have a much higher level of skill, and preferably superior size strength and speed on top of that.  Even then all it takes is one mistake or one lucky movement and you're bleeding.


----------



## tradrockrat

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> The ONLY way to beat a opponent with a weapon is too have a much higher level of skill, and preferably superior size strength and speed on top of that. Even then all it takes is one mistake or one lucky movement and you're bleeding.


 
 It also helps if your opponent has been drinking heavily...at least that's my experience.  :wink1:


----------



## arnisador

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> The ONLY way to beat a opponent with a weapon is too have a much higher level of skill, and preferably superior size strength and speed on top of that. Even then all it takes is one mistake or one lucky movement and you're bleeding.


Yes, don't discount the importance of luck in a case like this.


----------



## guromkb

arnisador said:
			
		

> Yes, don't discount the importance of luck in a case like this.


1. God
2. Luck
3. Skill
In that order hope you have at least one on your side

I agree grappling is a good method to learn but my point is don't expect for the perfect world to suddenly appear and everything is fine. One can say what he will do or how bad he thinks he is but until the crap hits the fan it is all theory and conjecture PERIOD! I was damn lucky to survive and it forever changed my outlook on martial arts. I now take a less is more view of things with a survivalist mentality and vicious demeanor when warranted, I now carry and train extensively with firearms, I have focused on the Filipino systems of knife combatives and empty hand methodologies including the Dumog ground work. Some may say i went over board and became a much more intense and somewhat unpleasing chap to be around from time to time but they didn't have a shank drilled into there right lung and awoke to the nasty taste of a resperator. But to each there own


----------



## Andrew Green

guromkb said:
			
		

> 1. God
> 2. Luck
> 3. Skill
> In that order hope you have at least one on your side


 So athiests are buggered from the get go?


----------



## guromkb

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> So athiests are buggered from the get go?


Yepp! Old saying, "there's no athiests in fox holes". Too each there own believe how you want, but me personally I prefer having the option of 3 as opposed to 2 but hey whatever you feel works best for you is cool with me. 

It's funny how many times I've heard athiests/agnostics etc. praying to god when the **** splats the fan. But then again alot of people use G_D as there moral bactine when things go wrong! But that's another discussion for a different forum.

G_D Bless Texas!


----------



## Eternal Beginner

guromkb said:
			
		

> Very interesting thread...*are we basing this on theory or actual experiance in grappling against a knifer*. Are you considering the variables? I have been attacked and damn near died from a knife wound (collapsed right lung) and guess what there is no telling what your gonna do until the time it actually happens. And yes I did try and take the man to the ground and use my size to nullify it and YES I was a dumb *** for doing so. While I was grappling with this guy all I could think of was to control that arm with the blade in his hand and then WHAM he pulled a blade out of his other jean pocket and nailed me. You see theres to many things that can go wrong. So is it important to learn how to grapple against a knifer IMHO maybe, but I will never ever go down to the ground with a knifer...learn how to stun and run and if your lucky and God's on your side you may get out of there with a cut or two but you damn sure dont wanna end up on a respirator like I did.* Theory is one thing but life is another*. You wanna make your scenario real, get yourself a nice pointed non edged wooden training knife and go for real and then tell me how you fair ..Im sure it wont be well.The blade is an unforgiving ***** and if you **** around with a knifer your betting your life that your flesh is stronger than that blade , odds are against ya.
> 
> PS if your dueling , your wrong, if it's an ambush with intent SAYONARA...


 I just wanted to say I appreciated this reply...especially the parts I have hi-lited.  Play fighting with friends in the gym is very different then an attack with intent by someone who is acting on base animal instinct...thanks for injecting a little dose of reality.


----------



## Knarfan

Tulisan said:
			
		

> As to grappling and knifework, I think it still should be addressed. One doesn't need to grapple like one is entering the UFC, but one does need to learn to grapple enough to prevent getting dumped on the ground in a less dominant position in a fight, or to prevent from being overtaken on the ground if you end up there.
> 
> Where grappling fits in with knife work, and how it should be trained if one is preparing for what may happened in a fight, is the scenario where someone try's to pull a knife, or pick something up that resembles a knife, while on the ground, or while in the standing grappling range. You could also consider if someone dumps you on the ground, or you trip, and his friend gets involved, and he is armed with something sharp. You have one guy grappling up on you, and another that is now armed with a sharp tool; not a good situation to be in, but better to work out these problems as much as possible in training rather then to be stuck with whatever happenes if this does occur in a fight. There are live exercises and scenario sparring type drills that can address these situation in training. And, these types of situations need to be addressed, or one is missing a major part of what may happened in reality. Remember: we don't rise to our expectations, we fall to our level of training and preperation.
> 
> As to the idea of attempting to grapple with a knife wielding assailent as you would if you were grappling on the mat in a match - this is something I would not recommend. The variables are entirely different in reality then on the mat, making this approach a very bad tactic that can get you killed. If all one focuses on is his hammer, then every problem begins to look like a nail. There are a lot of other tools in the toolbox that should be used against a knife wielding assailent, starting with the most noble tactic of running to safety.
> 
> Lastly, it is still important to grapple... period. "Anti-grappling" starts with learning how to grapple. You can't learn to deal with a grappling situation without getting on the mat and understanding how to utilize your body in the clinch or on the ground. The solutions to the problems of grappling in a fight must to start with grappling in practice.
> 
> Just my extended thoughts on the subject. Take it for what it is worth to you...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Paul


I like your outline on training & the relationship between what should be addressed in your training vs what is a possible occurance of what could happen in a real life situation. I like the message "anything is possible", including being taken down to the ground against your will. Don't wait, train for it ahead of time, it will help you deal with reality & make an educated decition on tactics. I know that training is training but, we can always improve our methods. I think that your thoughts on the subject are worth alot 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Do what ever you have to do to stay alive. No matter how much you train you will never be over prepared.


----------



## Tgace

But you can be improperly trained.


----------



## Knarfan

guromkb said:
			
		

> Agreed ....I carry 2 blades always and most of the FMA stylists I know do as well. The aformentioned incident years ago when I as a student of Judo and Karate..I had obtained blackbelt status in Goju and was training Judo. From that day forward I redirected my training towards the Filipino blade oriented arts and have totally adopted a survivalists mentality as opposed to that of a badass ( which unfortunately some younger men posses...10 ft. tall and bullet proof is a lie folks). When you deal with edged weapons your dealing with eminent death and severe injury..as Tuhon Leo Gaje told me " If your lucky enough to survive a knife attack or fight , you may get better but you will never be well" Profound words me thinks.
> 
> If it smells like fish and tastes like fish by god it's fish , use that gut instinct it works.


I like the fact that you ajusted your training after your unfortunate incident. I'm sure that there are alot of people benefiting from your lessons now. You are a true surviver 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 .


----------



## Knarfan

Tgace said:
			
		

> But you can be improperly trained.


Good point, this happens alot more when it comes to edge weapons. Thats why you should never take somone elses word for it.


----------



## tradrockrat

sayoc FF said:
			
		

> Good point, this happens alot more when it comes to edge weapons. Thats why you should never take somone elses word for it.


 Amen to this and tgace's statements.


----------



## Dwight McLemore

Oh my !


----------



## Cruentus

Dwight McLemore said:
			
		

> Oh my !




:rofl:


----------



## mleone

My Knife ground fighting is unique it goes above and beyond whats out there!
It uses tactical strategies in order to create reactions then capitalize on them. Thus giving and opening to finish the opponent.

Its base foundation is from my training with Hock, but I did some research with my students and we discovered many things and added them into our curriculum. We do the drills full force with out consent or expectation and discovered lots of things.
We found some unarmed strategies for survival and we found ways to finish your opponent.


----------



## arnisador

mleone said:
			
		

> We do the drills full force with out consent



???


----------



## mleone

We do the drills with padded protection and no consentual grabbing of each other. We dont offer to get in a head lock. We dont offer to get in an upper mount position. We work from the clinch and go from there. If it goes to a take down it goes to a take down. It if goes to a headlock it goes to a head lock. The knife of course could be unknown that its there or perhaps its known at the beginning. The more spontaneity in the training the better.

In the begining a breakdown of the scenario and proper equipment.


----------



## James Patrick

mleone said:
			
		

> My Knife ground fighting is unique it goes above and beyond whats out there!


Um....Sweeet?


----------



## Knarfan

mleone said:
			
		

> We do the drills with padded protection and no consentual grabbing of each other. We dont offer to get in a head lock. We dont offer to get in an upper mount position. We work from the clinch and go from there. If it goes to a take down it goes to a take down. It if goes to a headlock it goes to a head lock. The knife of course could be unknown that its there or perhaps its known at the beginning. The more spontaneity in the training the better.
> 
> In the begining a breakdown of the scenario and proper equipment.


 
Good stuff!
One of the things that I like about what you are desribing is that your forcing the person being attacked to identify & react to the threat of the edged weapon under duress, which is forcing them to responed to the threat immediatly, the weapon has to be dealt with when it is being drawn, not after... I think that this fact gets overlooked in alot of training, one thing that always seems to happen to people is that they will ID the weapon or threat & just grab & freeze, instead of following through. Your probably only going to get one chance (if your luckey), it sounds like your addressing the urgency of the situation & teaching some very effective follow through skills.


----------



## mleone

Your exactly correct in your response. 

Some things I focus on.

High Stress is key
Starting from the early stages of the fight is key
Capitalizing on a response is key
Spontaneity is key 
Chaos is key 

I have create some very spontaneous drills for knife ground fighting.


----------



## Jerry

> My Knife ground fighting is unique it goes above and beyond whats out there!
> It uses tactical strategies in order to create reactions then capitalize on them.


 But do you syngeristically capitalize on both your low and high level assets in order to foster a situation where you can best utilize your available reasources in a manner whihc promotes positive change?



> Its base foundation is from my training with Hock, but I did some research with my students and we discovered many things and added them into our curriculum.


 I want to make sure I follow. You took what was out there (hock) and then added what was out there (reasearch) and in doing so have something "above and beyond" what's out there?!?


----------



## Knarfan

Maybe he means above & beyond what Hoch has out there?


----------



## tellner

If you're interested in knifework on the ground look at Harimau Silat. Harimau (like most Silat) assumes that knives will be there. A lot of the things about it that seem sub-optimal compared to submission wrestling or BJJ are that way because of the presence of weapons.


----------



## mleone

To answer your question I train Hi and Low stress.
It just expands on Hocks curriculum its not the end of all end. I didnt reinvent the wheel or plant a flag on the moon. I simply created an interesting tire for me and my students.

It goes above beyond Hocks material by means research through my own students not "Whats out there already".  
I like to explore and be creative and push forward and try new things, thats my style.
How do you train Jerry? .Id like to hear your something things that you do? What discipline do you train in?
What areas or training methodologies do you use? Do train traditional or progressive or both?

Its always good to explore and learn from others!


----------



## Jerry

Sorry, hadn't checked the board in some time. 

I train in several arts (mostly integrated by people far more skilled than I), Heavily Silat-based (particualrly the knifework), but with strong Chinese and no Russian influences.

I'm not sure how to answer the general "what do I do" question, as it's rather broad. It's not uncommon to introrduce a blade into most any play. Much of our combative decision process is around the assumption of a knife, and they are regularly approximated in drills and sparring. 

Training methodologies? Discuss, demonstrate, illustrate on the student, allow the student to perform. Throw in daily sparring work and you've got my workout .


----------



## tellner

Like Jerry I haven't checked in. 

In a word, look at Harimau or some other groundfighting Silat system. Their groundwork is built around the knife, and they've already figured out a lot of the modifications you have to make in your grappling and groundboxing to deal with it.


----------



## Jerry

Jerry said:
			
		

> I train in several arts (mostly integrated by people far more skilled than I), Heavily Silat-based (particualrly the knifework), but with strong Chinese and no Russian influences.


 The word "no" should not have been in there. The paragraph should read:
I train in several arts (mostly integrated by people far more skilled than I), Heavily Silat-based (particualrly the knifework), but with strong Chinese and Russian influences.


----------



## Knarfan

tellner said:
			
		

> Like Jerry I haven't checked in.
> 
> In a word, look at Harimau or some other groundfighting Silat system. Their groundwork is built around the knife, and they've already figured out a lot of the modifications you have to make in your grappling and groundboxing to deal with it.


 
Harimau, very good ground fighting system. I have had limited exsposure to it (I own a couple of private seminar tapes & have been taught it for a few months) . If you have some familularity with grappling & a decent understanding of a blade (especially a karambit) it's is a good choice to build some excellent skills . I wouldn't want to be caught on the ground with a Harimau expert , very nasty stuff with or without a blade .


----------



## green man

With respect to the idea of balanced training for all possible situations, and to that ubiquitous common-knowledge assertion that "XX percent of all fights (usually 90) end up on the ground," I gotta say this:

Realistically speaking, the *last place in the world* you want to be is on the ground when the other guy's got a weapon, especially a knife. And it doesn't change things if you've got one too. All the knife training I've received has been based in the school of thought that you're dealing with multiple opponents - you want to spend the least amoung of time tied up with any one of them as possible, and constant mobility is paramount to your survival.

!!Mobility is exactly what you sacrifice by going to the ground with someone - not only can you not run away if things go bad, but you can't dodge or outflank his weapon, and even if you get him under control, you are SOL if one of your opponents' buddies wants to gang up on you while you're screwing around with him. While there's a lot of value in ground work, for a situation in the real world, all it takes is adding one more attacker for your day to get very bad, very fast.

With the exception of techniques or situations where you retain control of both your opponent *and* the weapon as you go to the ground, if you wind up tangled with him on the ground and he's got the weapon, you've got to assume that you have about half a second to either take him out, get the weapon, or get out of there, or you are F***ED.


- Just my humble opinion.:asian:


(Not to detract from the main point, but in my mind, ground training should not encourage a person to go to the ground in the first place, but should focus on taking out the opponent and getting back up in a minimum amount of time. Any ground training in which you don't approach it with the possibility of multiple attackers, but feel comfortable sitting there all day with an opponent in your guard is training for an ideal situation, and to say the least, that's not good.)


----------



## Hand Sword

arnisador said:
			
		

>


 
The best response, I couldn't put it better!


----------

