# Feedback for AIKIA, Independent TKD



## Aikia (Nov 5, 2004)

Hello. My name is Jerry Beasley. I am founder of AIKIA. The "K" stands for Korean martial arts(Taekwondo,Tangsoodo,Hapkido), Karate, Kickboxing and Kenpo. I begain AIKIA as the American Independent Korean Karate Instructors Association in 1979. I would like to hear from any current or former members. Let me know what you liked or disliked. We are in the process of updating materials so I would appreciate any constructive comments. If you are not a member but you have heard of us let me know what you think.
We are here to serve. What do you look for in a national organization? Reputation,price,integrety.service?
(I read posts every two or three days,please be patient for a response).

Dr.Jerry Beasley, 9th Dan
Black Belt Magazine Hall of Fame
Instructor of the year 2000


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## Zepp (Nov 5, 2004)

Sorry I'm not familiar with your organization Dr. Beasley, nor am I an instructor, but I can still answer one of your questions, if only in a general way.



			
				Aikia said:
			
		

> What do you look for in a national organization? Reputation,price,integrety.service?



Integrity comes to mind as being very important in an organization.  In this case, I'd consider integrity to mean a lack of political favoritism, as well as not discriminating against particular members for other associations they may have.  I believe that an organization's integrity is a large contributer to it's reputation.

Price should correlate with the service you receive.  If I were an instructor, and I were paying an annual fee to an organization, I'd want to get more out of it than merely rank recognition.

I'm looking at your organization's website, and I have to say, I like this particular quote: "Rank should be an Honor not an expense."


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## Miles (Nov 7, 2004)

Dr. Beasley,

I have seen the advertisements for your organization for many years.

I guess my first question would be whom do you consider to NOT be an independant instructor?  

What does your organization offer that the others advertised do not?

Take Care,

Miles


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## MichiganTKD (Nov 8, 2004)

"Yawn"

Next.


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## Aikia (Nov 8, 2004)

In 1979 , after being a black belt instructor for ATA/ITF clubs for eight years, I came up with the idea of an "Independent" organization. The independent refers to the instructor who finds that he prefers/needs to mix his art with other arts. You are an independent when you are free/independent of the boundaries imposed by classical theories. 

In a 1973 exhibition bout with then ITF world champion Ho Kwan Kahng I was able to out point him with superior foot work and hand skills. I combined my classical ITF tae kwon do with JOE Lewis/Bruce Lee strategies I learned from kickboxers ( then called full contact karate). Lewis and Lee had both added boxing footwork to their arts.  I unknowingly became "independent" of the dictates of classical TKD.
Now days many instructors qualify as independents. After our initial success as an organization several other organizations began to use the "independent" slogan. Unfortunately they always use independent to mean "having no master instructor". You can have an instructor and still be "independent" minded.
Our success and longeivity is based on the fact that so many former traditional TKD instructors find that the freedom to mix styles/arts presents a better method. We help them achieve that freedom as independents.
Proabably most of the martial artists who identify their art as tae kwon do today are "independents".
JB


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## Miles (Nov 8, 2004)

Aikia said:
			
		

> In 1979 , after being a black belt instructor for ATA/ITF clubs for eight years, I came up with the idea of an "Independent" organization. The independent refers to the instructor who finds that he prefers/needs to mix his art with other arts. You are an independent when you are free/independent of the boundaries imposed by classical theories.
> 
> ...........Our success and longeivity is based on the fact that so many former traditional TKD instructors find that the freedom to mix styles/arts presents a better method. We help them achieve that freedom as independents.
> Proabably most of the martial artists who identify their art as tae kwon do today are "independents".
> JB


Thank you for your response Dr. Beasley.  

I noticed that you have a Moo Duk Kwan organization (sub-Kwan?) as well, but the ATA/ITF were primarily Chung Do Kwan and Oh Do Kwan oriented.  Could you please elaborate on your TKD background (no offense intended toward GM Joe Lewis, but this is a TKD thread).

Miles


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## Aikia (Nov 9, 2004)

Miles,
I began TKD Moo Duk Kwan under Soo Wong Lee in 1968. My primary instructor was Whitman Davis and Grandmaster Kim who promoted me to 1st dan in 1971. I was a class instructor for Mr. Kim in 1970 and black belt instructor as of 1971. As a student of Philosophy at VA Tech I crosstrained with other black belt students in ITF TKD, judo and boxing. I received the second dan in ITF TKD in 1973 along with a BA in philosophy. While earning the MS in sociology and the Ed.D. in education ( from VA Tech 1977/1980) I continued to train in ITF TKD and earned the 3rd/4th and 5th(1980) dans with James Lee. For 10 years my only job was study, earn degrees, practice martial arts and teach TKD. I operated a professional martial arts school from 1980-1985 and taught as an adjunct at Radford University. At the university I have taught TKD since 1973, along with martial arts from other countries. I am employed as a professor to teach, research and write about martial arts. In the late 1990's I was recognized by organizations for my work in the promotion of TKD and elevated to 9th dan. In 2002 I received the lead position of the American Moo Duk Kwan Council . I developed Aikia and AITF to promote Korean martial arts. There is more about my study of other arts but I won't bore you with details.
JB


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## MichiganTKD (Nov 9, 2004)

Question #1: What organization promoted you to 9th Dan? 9th Dan is a very high honor, indicating world leadership, and I'm curious as to who or what group said you earned that rank.

Question #2: Why do I have to mix Tae Kwon Do with other styles to be independent. Classical TKD practice is hardly a prison. I don't mix my Tae Kwon Do with other styles because I choose not to. My art is very special to me, and I"ve never felt the need to cross train to "establish my independence".

Question #3: Isn't Joe Lewis a sport karate guy? Why be a grandmaster if all you do is fight and lead fighting seminars. A 3rd Dan could do that. The Grandmaster title is reserved for those who have made world contributions to martial arts, not because they happen to be decent fighters (or were 40 years ago.)

Question #4: Since you are obviously an ITF practioner, which I don't have a problem with, why would or should other stylists join your organization? As a WTF/Kukkiwon member, what would I have to gain by joining an organization headed by an ITF member? Quick answer-nothing.

Question #5: What could you possibly give me that my organization can't? Credibility? Rank? Accomplishment? Support system? Legitimate certification? None of the above? I'll take None of the Above for 100 Alex.


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## cali_tkdbruin (Nov 9, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Question #1: What organization promoted you to 9th Dan? 9th Dan is a very high honor, indicating world leadership, and I'm curious as to who or what group said you earned that rank...



Excellent point *MichiganTKD*! How many people get to 9th Dan level in TKD? Not too many. I'm guessing only a hand full attain that august rank.

BTW, *G-Dub *was not my choice for Prez either. When he's willing to put his own *** on the line, or at least put his daughters' asses on the line to go fight his war in Iraq instead of sending everyone else's kids to go die in that lost cause then he'll merit my respect. 
Well, I've accepted it that he is our president for another four years. If anything, and what's good is that at least we live in a country in which we can voice our opinions and disagree with our leaders' dumbass choices and decisions. God Bless America...  

 :uhyeah: :CTF:


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## Aikia (Nov 9, 2004)

Wow, the response is interesting. I remember back in the early 1970's I  thought that only a Korean could earn the 9th dan. Friend, that was 30 years ago. I have been a black belt for 33 years. I have taught TKD for 34 years ( one year as a red belt). The fact is that classical thought advances the theory that an art must have boundaries. You recognize that TKD is different from Hapkido because of the limitations imposed by both arts. Can you explain the difference in WTF and ITF TKD? Of course. They punch, kick,perform hyung/patterns differently. What if you understood the theory of motion and the parameters predisposing human behavior to comform to certain motor functions? Would not a kick be only a kick? AIKIA is an organization that has simply "Moved the cheese". Not everyone can find their way alone. Most prefer the comfort of knowing that there is only "one" way and that way is dictated by their grandmaster/art/association. This type of person often feels threatened when someone presents a glimpse of freedom. Those bound by tradition cannot understand free thoiught or "independence". I represent independence. Using what works.
 I understand that you may feel uncomfortable if I have chosen to align myself with ITF TKD through 5th dan. I am no longer a representative of either ITF or WTF versions of TKD. For classical/traditional art I prefer the Korean Karate system represented by the American Moo Duk Kwan Council. My 9th dan was awarded to me by   board approval and signed and authorized by Grandmaster Michael DePasquale Sr. and Professor Wally Jay. At the same promotion Bill Wallace received the 10 th dan. I have also received recognition as Soke/9th dan from the EU Council and 9th dan from the AMDKC. However dan ranks only reflect a level of recognition.
 You should consider Aikia membership if you are free to think independently. I began the slogan "No Politics". I was once subject to paying high fees for promotions. Black Belt agents in my organization (over 1300 since 1979) pay nothing for dan rank. In AIKIA rank is an honor not an expense. www.aikia.net.
Jerry Beasley, Ed.D.
Black Belt Magazine Hall of Fame
Instructor of the Year 2000


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## MichiganTKD (Nov 9, 2004)

Jerry,

Don't misunderstand. I am not attacking you personally. However, I have real problems with what you offering and your authority to do so. 
First, Michael DePasquale is NOT a Tae Kwon Do Instructor. He teaches some Hapkido/Hwa Rang Do/Whatever else system. Wally Jay teaches jujitsu. 9th Dan TKD Certificates from them are worthless because they don't teach Tae Kwon Do. They are undoubtably nice people, but highly unqualified to be giving Tae Kwon Do certification.
Second, I don't feel guilty for paying to support my Instructor and the Organization. I wouldn't feel guilty for paying to support my parents either. Both have given me more than I could ever hope for. To say to my Instructor "I'm joining a different organization because I don't feel like paying to support you or the organization anymore" is saying "Screw you Sa Bum Nim". I know my Instructor's history, his credentials, his Instructor (I've met one of them), and his students. He has never lied to me. Why in the world would I leave an organization I know for people who are strangers to me? because I don't feel like paying for Dan tests and seminars? It comes with the territory. Dan fees and seminar fees cover the expenses of putting together reputable tests and seminars. I could pay nothing for a Dan test, as you suggest, but as they say you get what you pay for.
Finally, how is Bill Wallace a 10th Dan? He is a kickboxer. Kickboxing is not a martial art, it is a sport. Therefore, Dan rank is meaningless.
Hate to say this, but what you offer is no different than what the other ads in the back of martial arts magazines offer.


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## Aikia (Nov 9, 2004)

Hmmm. MichicanTKD, I am not trying to recruit anyone on this forumn. I was asked by a member to participate. Who is your instructor and what organization do you belong to? Have you always practiced the same style?
From 1968-1970's I too was brainwashed by Korean mentality so that I felt inferior to my Korean master. Some TKD schools are little more than cults in which Americans are taught to beleive that the Korean grandmaster is above classification. Yet when we discover that the WTF president took a reported $6 million to use as bribe money, or  the ITF leaders aledegely supported the communist, or that the Korean government paid for the immigration of hundreds of TKD "masters" to come to this country in the 1960's/70's to insure that TKD would gain a stronghold in the US  martial arts economy, we find that they are human too. As leader of an American martial arts organization I often hear horror stories of how a working mom is expected to come up with $500 to pay for her son's first dan under a Korean "master". The cost of the WTF/Kukikwon certificate in Korea is less than $30 US. Yet the masters sell it to us for hundreds of dollars. You can now buy the certificates via E-bay for a mere $3! In Korean controlled TKD, politics means money. It never stops amazing me that some become so brainwashed that they can not accept skill as justification for rank. You would question Bill Wallace, Black Belt Hall Magazine of Fame member, world champion and greatest kicker of all time,  promotion to the level of 10th dan by a board of 10th dans? Who do you think promoted Jhoon Rhee to 10th dan?
  This is 21st century America. During the last 40 years the best martial artists in the world came to the US for economic success. They taught us well. Americans take an inferior role to no other nation.


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## Marginal (Nov 10, 2004)

Last I checked, Bill Wallace claimed Karate as his background and doesn't present himself as a TKD instructor at all. 

I can't pick much else out of that mess.


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## The Kai (Nov 10, 2004)

I guess the question is what higher level training is about.  Is it TKD, with in depth of Hyumng analysis, reapplication of basics.  Or is it the ability to crosstrain in other arts i.e. Medium level training+Medium level training=? and then why use the term TKD


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## Aikia (Nov 10, 2004)

The Kai,
Perfect. Very perceptive. Those of us in AIKIA beleive that after earning the black belt you can improve your performance by going outside of your art and supplementing the art with skill and training methods from other arts. TKD is still the base art. However the independent TKD instructor offers elements of jujitsu, kickboxing, escrima etc. At my summer camp called Karate College( formerly Tae Kwon Do University) we have a large portion of TKD practitioners who now feel comfortable going to the mat in a Gracie juijitsu class then putting on the gloves for kickboxing. Next they may take a traditional TKD forms class or engage in Olympic style TKD sparring before trying ninjutsu or tai chi, hapkido etc. At Karate College, sponsored by AIKIA, all the arts are as one. We can learn from others.
 There is certainly room for the the traditionalist. Classical TKD will always be admired. Even in the most traditional TKD circles techniques hyung/patterns/sparring methods have always varied. It is the defined social structure that identifies traditional TKD and this same structure is also apparent in non-classical TKD. And, there is also a place for the independent. For 25 years AIKIA has been the leader in the independent movement for TKD.
Jerry Beasley, Ed.D.


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## The Kai (Nov 10, 2004)

Cross traing is great, but my problem is handing out advanced degrees for a TKD Balck belt with some cross training experience.  Two levels of middling training should not equal experience in the upper levels of the art.


I guess t it is a matter of perspective, but showing loyality to friends of teachers is'nt always brainwashing.


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## Aikia (Nov 10, 2004)

That is an interesting concept. How do you progress as an independent TKD dan holder? The elements of TKD include form, basic skills, sparring and self defense. I noted the social structure in an earlier post. If there is only one way to perform (let's say a kick ) then only one organization can be valid. However we know that in competition/self defense, general application, there are many ways to successfuly utilize the way (do) of the kick (tae) and punch (kwon). Thus there are many valid intrepretations of TKD.
If you say that your style is Moo Duk Kwan, for example then it becomes easier to identify what is considered the "correct" technique. The independent feels that in a given encounter  the "correct" technique is subject to many variables including environment, personal preference, distance etc. Speed , power and deceptiveness are really the indicators that will determine whether or not a technique will be successful. In combat the name of the style, the rank of the master instructor are irelevant. The correct parring of strategy and attributes will determine success.
As master instructor to the independent TKD dan holder I must be able to determine whether or not the performer has met creteria that would indicate that he/she understands and can apply "independent theory" regarding their performance of TKD. The same is true for the head of any other organization. In my organization the performance will vary with the attributes of the individual. We do not have the boundaries imposed by a particular style of TKD and their are many "styles" of TKD. Is there a diference in ITF versus WTF style TKD? Of course. Just as the organizations that govern dan rank for the performance of skill within the paramenters of WTF/ITF vary, AIKIA as the official Independent TKD organization has a set of requirements for advancing in rank. Same concept, different view.
As an independent TKD black belt I ask instructors to cross train not to earn a green belt in one style, a brown belt in  another, but to discover how as independent TKD practitioners they can best prepare for combat if they must face experts in other diciplines. The independent TKD practitioner must be prepared for combat at long range in which TKD excells and at trap/clinch range  and ground grappling where TKD is not sufficient. In so doing they supplement their TKD with superior skills. They do not need to make their art work because it is all they have. Rather they may adapt their TKD to best serve the purpose of self defense. That is why we are independent. We are free to make choices that we feel can better prepare us for success.
Dr.Beasley


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## MichiganTKD (Nov 10, 2004)

Jerry,

First of all, I'm not excusing Un Yong Kim's behavior. He was guilty of embezzlement, sent to prison, and stripped of his titles. The WTF and Kukkiwon will carry on. No one man defines them.
Second, I know full well that America is the land of opportunity, It always has been. There have been lots of disreputable Korean Instructors who came here just to make a buck, as many TKD students will testify to. I'm not excusing them either. I consider them low class prostitutes out to exploit gullible students to make money. There is nothing wrong with being able to make some income from Tae Kwon Do or MA. The problem, as you seem to demonstrate, is _using_ MA to make money. Turning MA strictly into a marketable commodity to be bought and sold. Your postings suggest this is all you are about. I could care less about your teaching credentials. You still appear to exploit gullible students with promises of easy rank in any style they choose. A streetwalker will also give you anything you want if the price is right.
And you're damn right I'll question Bill Wallace's credentials. Greatest kicker/kickboxer who ever lived? Matter of opinion, though I understand he was quite good. Black Belt Hall of Fame member? Could care less. Published in all the magazines? So what. 10th Dan? In what? Kickboxing? Again, kickboxing is a sport, not a martial art. I don't care what "panel" awarded him 10th Dan. As they say, don't believe the hype. And don't ever suggest to me someone is above questioning.
Is it just me, or is the hot air just a bit stifling?


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## TigerWoman (Nov 10, 2004)

I'm not near to a master level, still very much a student learning Taekwondo.  Does having a 1st dan black belt in TKD mean you are proficient enough in it to go out and fight a grappler at their game?  Don't think so.  Not any more a grappler same years in, would fight a TKD'ist at theirs.  But I'm not in it just to "fight" but in it for the art itself.  I'm not going into combat and the likelihood of me and several of my forty-somethings in class using it even for self-defense is highly unlikely.  After all we are taught to avoid situations like that.  Not that we aren't taught self-defense.  My instructor was WTF taught but is an independent and teaches us effective defense from other arts.  Just today, we learned a grappling move particularly for women. So, I can see the value of learning other arts but at the point I am in Taekwondo, cross-training with too much in other arts is counter-productive to in-depth study and work needed for TKD. And I certainly wouldn't want someone who isn't a certified master teaching me. A first dan in everything means very little. Maybe after a master level, I would consider learning other arts...but probably at an earlier age.   TW


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## Mithios (Nov 10, 2004)

Mr. Beasley,    Welcome!!   This is turning into an interesting thread! I for one am interested in you'r view's. Classical T.K.D. is my base, But i also have a black belt in Hapkido, and do boxing and Muay Thai. I'm looking for Eskrima now            Mithios


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## Aikia (Nov 10, 2004)

Woah, there MichicanTKD. You seem pretty hostile. Bet you didn't know I have always favored Bear Archery (Grayling Michigan) and one summer I could play all the Ted Nugent( isn't he from Mich?) lead tracts on Cat Scratch Fever. I'am a Michigan fan. Now here is where you misjudge me. You assume that "Free Dan Testing" means big money for me and easy promotions for my instructors. Wrong on both counts. You don't make anything from free testing. Here's the important part. See, I don't charge for dan testing ( I do not promote first dan personally. You need to have earned a 1st dan from your actual instructor) because I choose not to be influenced by money. In AIKIA skill talks and money walks. You can't buy an AIKIA diploma. You can only earn it. I mean it when I say rank should be an honor not an expense.
Now if you were to send me $500 and you had limited skill, and let's say I had a car payment due or something, I could be tempted to sell you the diploma just for the cash. Never happens in AIKIA. Don't need the money. I'am a college professor, remember?
When I was a low dan rank many  years ago I was constantly paying money to the organization and to a master instructor. The master would come into town take a quick look at my students, hand me some diplomas and take my money. After I became a master instructor I was invited to set on a board with a well known Grand Master. We tested over 100 college students in a few hours. A few were good. Most were average and several were poor. They all passed. Some received black belts. The Grandmaster left town with colse to $5000 in his pocket! I decided then that when I was in the leadership position I would do things differently. And I have.
 Beleive it or not Michigan, I am here to serve. It does cost a lot to buy advertising space in the magazines. But much (and in some years all) of the  profit goes to charity. AIKIA sponsored martial arts instruction in Iran and Iraq for orphans of the war. We have donated over $5000 to Christian charities. All of our agents receive a greater percentage from the sale of membership certificates and rank certificates than is paid to the organization. I know from experience what it is like to be a struggeling school owner who sees the profits go to an organization or master. In AIKIA you, the instructor, make the profit.
 I know all this must be radical to some. Others will say what is he really after? Truth is I was the low man on the totem once. Now I am free to give in a manner I  had hoped someone would have given to me.
And, by the way Michigan, dans that use profanity in print fail to reflect the character traits that we teach in TKD.

MJS thanks for your encouragement.

Jerry Beasley, Ed.D.


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## Zepp (Nov 10, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> And you're damn right I'll question Bill Wallace's credentials. Greatest kicker/kickboxer who ever lived? Matter of opinion, though I understand he was quite good. Black Belt Hall of Fame member? Could care less. Published in all the magazines? So what. 10th Dan? In what? Kickboxing? Again, kickboxing is a sport, not a martial art. I don't care what "panel" awarded him 10th Dan. As they say, don't believe the hype.



Michigan, 
You should read up a bit on Joe Lewis if you haven't already.  Before becoming a kickboxer he trained in Okinawan karate and then in Tae Kwon Do under Jhoon Rhee.  I think he calls what he teaches Karate, but that hardly means that it excludes Tae Kwon Do.  Don't get too hung up on names.

I don't know if you're objecting to the fact that Dr. Beasley calls what he does "Tae Kwon Do," but if that is part of what you're trying to say, you may want to express your opinion on this thread, instead of attacking someone's credentials here.


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## Miles (Nov 11, 2004)

Aikia said:
			
		

> As master instructor to the independent TKD dan holder I must be able to determine whether or not the performer has met creteria that would indicate that he/she understands and can apply "independent theory" regarding their performance of TKD.  (substantial editing by Miles)
> 
> As an independent TKD black belt I ask instructors to cross train not to earn a green belt in one style, a brown belt in another, but to discover how as independent TKD practitioners they can best prepare for combat if they must face experts in other diciplines. The independent TKD practitioner must be prepared for combat at long range in which TKD excells and at trap/clinch range and ground grappling where TKD is not sufficient. In so doing they supplement their TKD with superior skills. They do not need to make their art work because it is all they have. Rather they may adapt their TKD to best serve the purpose of self defense. That is why we are independent. We are free to make choices that we feel can better prepare us for success.
> Dr.Beasley


I agree that this thread has become very interesting and appreciate the input of all. 

Dr. Beasley, I think the concept of cross-training is fine but am concerned that folks with a weekend seminar in arnis/hapkido/judo, etc. are being ranked.  I think exposing TKD folks to these arts (and those practitioners to TKD) can be healthy for all.  The art does not make the practitioner.

As far as ranking in TKD, I agree with MichiganTKD that having non-TKD Masters convening a board and conveying rank does not lend credibility.  I do not think one has to be Asian to hold high rank in MA (GM Ed Sell is a 9th dan Kukkiwon and Chung Do Kwan), but agree that to get that status means substantial contributions have been made to the MA.  I am not saying you have not made substantial contributions, you may very well have done so.

Miles


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## Miles (Nov 11, 2004)

Aikia said:
			
		

> Woah, there MichicanTKD. You seem pretty hostile. Bet you didn't know I have always favored Bear Archery (Grayling Michigan) and one summer I could play all the Ted Nugent( isn't he from Mich?) lead tracts on Cat Scratch Fever. I'am a Michigan fan. >>
> 
> OK, very much off topic, but the Fred Bear Museum was outstanding.  I'll never forget the huge Kodiac bear on display.  I hail from N. MI.  I believe Ted Nugent lives in MichiganTKD's area (didn't you say Ypsi?)
> 
> Miles


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## MJS (Nov 11, 2004)

Aikia said:
			
		

> MJS thanks for your encouragement.



You're quite welcome Sir! :asian: 

Mike


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## The Kai (Nov 11, 2004)

I would ask that if you find the structure, training and philosophy in TKD so utter lacking why still using the name?  Since, you are not techncally offering "higher" level training in TKD, but traing in outside arts to gain higher ranking why not use the American karate tag?

IMHO Michigan TKD is a adult, if he chioses to support, stay loyal and remain committed was at one time admirable.  If you dismiss these qualities as simple brainwashing I think (again opinion) you do a disservice to the open mindedness you represent.

IMHO Bill Wallce I don't think it would be a strech to say any TKD or karate'ka today has been influenced by Wallace's streching or Kicking Concepts.  However, is it 10 dan material?  What Kata's does he do?  Wallace himself in print and in person has been dimissive of the Black Belt?Rank issue.  I find it "Odd" that someone would promote someone who has no respect for the rank.  I also find it suspect that he even accepted the rank
2cents worth yet?
Todd


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## Aikia (Nov 11, 2004)

Very interesting replys. I was trained accademicaly as a sosiologist. My doctoral dissertation in Education focused on "An examination of the social relations and group configurations in a modern day adaptation of the ancient oriental martial art". I was primarily a TKD instructor when I finished the doctorate at VA Tech. As far a group loyalties are concerned  things have not changed so much since the 1970's.
 Yassar Arafat just died. He was hailed as a despised dictator by some, as a loyal king by others. It is interesting how two groups may view the same event and draw such different conclusions. I recognize that there are loyal bonds held by some who practice traditional TKD. I applaud your sincerity. However, there is no need to demonstrate a threat response and attack the messenger's credibility or position. 
 Research shows  that in the US, TKD has become a generic name to classify Korean methods (do) of kicking (tae) and punching (kwon). When we use the word taekwondo we give credit to the Korean heritage. In this manner we are together, some traditional, some independent. Good luck in your future practice.
Jerry Beasley Ed.D.


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## Marginal (Nov 11, 2004)

Aikia said:
			
		

> I applaud your sincerity. However, there is no need to demonstrate a threat response and attack the messenger's credibility or position.


"WTF is corrupt!"
"ITF is ruled by N Koreans, so I've heard!"
"I too once thought I had to worship asians to gain rank, but then..."

Indeed....


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## The Kai (Nov 11, 2004)

Oh, I applaud your perceptiveness

Todd


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## MichiganTKD (Nov 11, 2004)

A. Yes I am from Michigan (Jackson to be exact) B. Can't stand Ted Nugent. I think he is an arrogant self-righteous SOB personally. Why do people think that everyone in Michigan worships or admires Ted Nugent?
Anyway, your description about the ranking process just proves my point. There is only one person in the world who can recommend me, and one person who receives my testing fee-my Instructor. He knows me, my technique, my mind, my life, and my credibility. He alone determines my eligibility to test.
Why do we pay high fees to test for Dan ranking? Several reasons. First, testing fees are income for your Instructor. Even if he has a full time job (which he does), that is still his money, because you are testing within his organization and using his name. It is his money to do as he sees fit. 
Second, our organization Dan test is held in the gymnasium of our community college. Using this gym is not free and not cheap. Testing fees go to help pay for this, as well as mandatory insurance coverage. Why? Because Dan testing is a major accomplishment, something you should be proud of. Consequently, Dan testing is held in a location meant to convey high ceremony. The local dojang just wouldn't cut it.
Now, I could charge nothing or the bare minimum for Dan tests as Jerry suggests. Having no money to work with, Dan testing would consist of the testers and myself, since I would have no money to bring in reputable judges (I don't judge my own students for Dan level). The setting wold be our school, nothing different. Real exciting way to convey the pride of testing for Dan level. Don't know about you, but I'd rather pay the money and have Dan testing be something I could tell my grandkids about. I've brought students to these testings. They see for themselves the lights, the Masters' banners, the pomp and ceremony, and feel very proud to be a member of the organization.
Dan testing becomes something they feel rightly proud to be a part of.
And as for Bill Wallace, what does he contribute to martial arts that merits 10th Dan? My Instructor was the Korean national free fighting champion. After he retired from fighting, he returned to teaching and promoting traditional Tae Kwon Do. His Dan certification was recommended by Woon Kyu Uhm and presided over by a panel of Tae Kwon Do Grandmasters at the Kukkiwon. No jujitsu, no hapkido, no created-my-own-style-last-year. Tae Kwon Do Grandmasters. All known around the world.
His name is Grandmaster Tae Zee Park BTW.


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## Miles (Nov 12, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Why do we pay high fees to test for Dan ranking? Several reasons. First, testing fees are income for your Instructor. Even if he has a full time job (which he does), that is still his money, because you are testing within his organization and using his name. It is his money to do as he sees fit.
> Second, our organization Dan test is held in the gymnasium of our community college.





			
				Aikia said:
			
		

> When I was a low dan rank many years ago I was constantly paying money to the organization and to a master instructor. The master would come into town take a quick look at my students, hand me some diplomas and take my money. After I became a master instructor I was invited to set on a board with a well known Grand Master. We tested over 100 college students in a few hours. A few were good. Most were average and several were poor. They all passed. Some received black belts. The Grandmaster left town with colse to $5000 in his pocket! I decided then that when I was in the leadership position I would do things differently. And I have.
> 
> Jerry Beasley, Ed.D.


Dr. Beasley, in your story the GM took home about $50/examinee.  That does not seem like a huge profit on its face. (I would still be concerned about unqualified people passing however.)  What are the fees charged for your organization?

MichiganTKD, you mention you pay high fees.  What are the fees charged in your organization?  Do you receive any of the testing fees from your organization for recommending students for promotion or for sitting on a promotion board?

Miles


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## MichiganTKD (Nov 12, 2004)

Traditionally, any fees paid to an Instructor by his students when they test go to the Head of the Organization. Now, within our organization, there is some variance on that. Some of our Instructors, who are higher ranking and more autonomous, organize their own tests with guest judges they invite. The GM may or may not be there. They are more likely to keep the testing fees, since they are organizing everything. However, our Head Instructor does the same thing and does receive a cut of the fees. Understandably he is not happy about this, since he sees other Instructors getting to keep parts of the fees. 
Also, the testing organizer who invites judges is obligated to either reimburse visiting judges for gas money or airfare and treat them afterward to a nice restaurant in appreciation for judging. So I am not paid to judge, but I am compensated for gas and fed well for judging. I judge regardless out of respect for those Instructors I respect and because people judged for me before. Money is not a factor, unless the testing takes place out of state and it would be difficult for me to arrange to go.


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## Aikia (Nov 12, 2004)

Miles,
The testing took place in about 1983. That was a lot of money for a college TKD club. On another occassion a member told me his Korean "Master" intended to charge him $6000 for certification to 6th dan.  It is better to raise monthly fees than to have the high promotion fees. Students and parents do not appreciate the often high fees. Some instructors will try to pull the wool over students eyes and argue about why they deserve the fees. And there is still the common practice of having a board to promote when only the actual instructor makes the decision. This practice is may often  be an excuse for the instructors to get together at the students expense. This is true but some will argue so as to convince themselves that it is O.K. to gouge the student at test time.
 When I was a full time TKD school owner from 1980-1985 I held testings every month for the small groups that qualified. At the end of the exam I would divide the money with my two instructors. We typically charged $10 per level and $30 for dan rank.
In Aikia a gup certificate is $3. This is the wholesale price to the instructor. The 1st dan is $30 (wholesale price). However, the agent may receive $2 credit per gup rank. In other words if the student has been issued all 10 gup ranks from AIKIA the $20 credit makes the cost for the dan rank only $10. The agent/instructor may and proabably does charge more at the actual test. A student membership, (wholesale price) is $7 and includes the patch and membership certificate. Agents may resale the membership for up to $20 ( showing a  $13 profit per membership). We offer only membership and rank certification for income. Advice/consulting is always free. Most agents attend our Karate College summer camp for continuing education. Agent/instructors test for dan rank at no charge.
 I like the idea of knowing that our agents claim that they always receive more than they pay for. Same with Karate College. For $189 participants receive Thursday-Sunday instruction with the top masters in the field. And of course many receive discounts or scholarship reductions. I beleive instructors should receive a fair fee for instruction. I do not beleive that an association should take advantage of the instructor. I see AIKIA as a service to the martial arts community, not as a job.
JB


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## MichiganTKD (Nov 12, 2004)

Just out of curiosity, what Instructors do you have teaching Tae Kwon Do or other styles at the College and at these Camps?


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## Miles (Nov 13, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Traditionally, any fees paid to an Instructor by his students when they test go to the Head of the Organization. Now, within our organization, there is some variance on that.
> 
> Also, the testing organizer who invites judges is obligated to either reimburse visiting judges for gas money or airfare and treat them afterward to a nice restaurant in appreciation for judging. So I am not paid to judge, but I am compensated for gas and fed well for judging.
> 
> ...


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## Aikia (Nov 13, 2004)

Thanks for asking. 
This year at Karate College 2005 we feature:  Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis, Renzo Gracie, Michael DePasquale, Jr., Isralie Self Defense expert Mike Lee Kanarek, CQC specialist Hock Hockiem, "The Cane Master" Mark Shuey, Combat Hapkido's John Pelligrini ( These individuals are among the most popular seminar performers nationwide. A seminar with any one instructor would typically go for $60-$100 per seminar).
 All instructors work together and we  do not tolerate speaking ill of other arts or instructors. The feeling is relaxed where black belts can try new things without embarrassment. Have fun. You may also spend quality "out of class" time with any instructor.
  We also feature mixed martial arts experts, video artist and renowned authors including  Walt Lysak, and Mark Hatmaker. And this year we will have "Dynamic Chucks"  Paladin Press video artist and performer Mitch Thomas.
 Olympic TKD champion Danny Dring , TKD master instructor Greg Ferry and Korean martial arts master Jim Sams,  executive TKD sparring champ Danny Chapman, Tang Soo Do master Ian Marshall (  I also teach in the TKD section) round out the style specific TKD section. All of the TKD experts can easily move from TKD to kickboxing to submissions etc. 
 We also feature JKD and Filipino martial arts expert David Durch, Pressure point master  Robert Cutrel, Kickboxing champ Mike Allen, Tai Chi expert James Houston and Kung Fu Grandmaster Simon Kwon.
 We have a special Kids program  hosted by former Chuck Norris/ KDOOA instructor and TKD champ Twila Shuler. The Kid's program is housed in it's own room and each instructor teaches child specific skills. There are also speacility seminars in "dojo management", "teaching techniques" just for instructors. If you have ever had an interest in other arts this is the place to answer questions.
 There are four classes being held every hour. Instruction begins on Thursday at 3p.m. ( ends at 9p.m.) Classes run continuously Friday and Saturday from 8a.m. through 9p.m., and Sunday from 8a.m.-12p.m.. No you do not have to attend every class. Take as many classes as you want for one price of $199! There are group discounts. You can stay and eat  on the Radford University campus  for as  little as $69 total (three nights included with meals!), or off campus in hotels. You may receive continuing education college credit. This will be our 17th year.
 Remember my mission is to make shure you receive more than you pay for. If you have only practiced one style it will be an eye-opener. I garauntee it!
Jerry Beasley Ed.D.


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## MichiganTKD (Nov 13, 2004)

Jerry,

With few exceptions, I've never heard of anyone you listed. I've heard of John Pellegrini, but only because there is a debate in the MA community as to how legitimate his credentials are. Not exactly a model of esteemed stature. The TKD Instructors? I've never heard of any of them. Then again, I practice traditional TKD, not TKD mixed with JKD/kickboxing/submission. So I wouldn't know anybody in those circles. Something tells me you wouldn't have any traditional Tae kwon Do Instructors there.
As for being able to seamlessly move from Tae Kwon Do to kickboxing to grappling, all the Instructors I know have devoted their lives to Tae Kwon Do. Are they acqainted with the above? Possibly. Could they lead a seminar in any of them? Nope. That is not where they devoted their energies.
Got a feeling not too many white uniforms there either.


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## Aikia (Nov 13, 2004)

Michican,
It helps to stay up with current events. If you read Blcack Belt you will recognize most of the professionals that come from across the US. One reason for practiicing TKD is to be able to use it in self defense. It is possible and proabable- that, that area is not of interest to you. Independent TKD practitioners found out long ago the any art is limited. All arts have boundaries. Tkd does not pretend to prepare the individual for CQC ( that is close quarters combat, a popular term being used today). Nor has TKD ever had a method for ground defense. My own TKD instructor use to teach us judo and took pride in the fact that he was judo trained (1960's). I have simply advanced the tradition of being fully prepared for combat by operating from the principle of inclusion.
 The same can be said of competition as a facet of TKD instruction. If you can only spar one way ( choose Olympic methos, contact, point, non-contact etc) how can you claim to have mastered TKD? My students are encouraged to experience each method and develop expertise in the method that works best for them. What you must mean is that in your TKD universe you are very good at doing the things you feel comfortable doing and have always done. I want to help others find freedom from the boundaries of their limited style. Some would say "It was good enough for my master, it is good enough for me". Others would claim "We are ultra-right wing conservatives in TKD and we refuse to entertain the concept of inclusion". Michagan, I can tell from your banner you would reject the conservative approach.

 Research from police studies shows that approximately 50% of all confrontations are engaged at CQC. The other 50% takes place on the ground.  When people get mad thay want to grab each other.Occassionally two fighters stay at TKD distance for a long range exchange. It would indeed be a wounderful thing if attackers would keep their distance and attempt to perform kicks and long range punches, the subject matter of traditional TKD.. That does happen in the movies. In real life we have found that we must supplement our art with knowledge at close ( toe to toe) range and ground range. It is not my argument to claim that one art works better than another nor to claim that TKD is not a complete art if you limit your options. 
 Modern independent TKD has it's merits just as does the conservative traditional TKD. In America we do not need to exclude one way in order to promote the other.
JB


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## MJS (Nov 13, 2004)

WOW!  This has certainly turned into an interesting topic.  3 pages and 38 posts later, and whats been accomplished??  I'd like to say a few things here.

First off, Jerry, I think that what you're doing is great!  You're going out, getting people familiar with your org., bringing in some top notch people, and spreading the arts, all of which are excellent things.  IMO, people have a choice...stay independant, stay with the org. of their art, or join up with you, and at least have a base of people to follow.  

Things change, and IMO, its good, despite what others think, to keep up with the current times.  IE- new fighting methods, exploring all ranges of combat, etc. and its apparent to me, that you're doing a great job of this.  Again, you're bringing in some quality people, as I have heard of many of them.

MichiganTKD-  You obviously are happy with what you're doing and your org.  That being said, why should it concern you with what Jerry is doing?  If you're not interested in what he's doing, don't join!!  There are obviously people out there that like what hes doing.  As for John Pelligrini...I had the chance to attend a seminar with him a few years back, and IMO, he had some great skill and alot to offer.  It also appears to me that people are not happy with him because he did that forbidden thing...make some changes to his art, make mods. etc.  Again, like Jerry, he also has a large following.  Once again, if you're not interested, and it appears you're not, don't join.  You appear happy and content with what you're doing.

Mike


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## Disco (Nov 13, 2004)

I've sat back and watched this thread unfold. A few overviews.........
Cross training has always been practiced, even by the old masters. As for TKD not being adequate for CQC, I will agree that what is being taught today in many dojangs is sorely wanting. But that was not the case in the early days when TKD first entered our shores. Old school TKD touched on many aspects of combat, including ground tactics. As was stated, "Nor has TKD ever had a method for ground defense". We were not taught to STAY on the ground and fight, we were taught to get up asap by using techniques that would permit such an action. Perhaps some were never informed of these training aspects. 

I understand where MichTKD is coming from and agree with some of his points of contention. As for the Mr. P. debate. His technical prowess is not the main issue, it's the background to his rankings that seem to be in question. There are more than enough other threads devoted to this issue to warrant scrutiny.  

I think that MichTKD's main point of contention with Mr. Beasley is that this thread was started to serve as a promotional platform to generate business. I just don't recall a thread of this nature being introduced before, by an outside agent. 

Not meant to disrespect any of the parties involved, just offering a seperate viewpoint.  :asian:


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## MJS (Nov 13, 2004)

Disco-

Thank you for your input!  I, like you, am just an outsider looking in at this thread.  I do not study TKD and am not a part of Mr. Beasleys org.  A few things I'd like to add to your post.  As far as his first post, it appeared to me that it was not a promo. but simply making an attempt to tell people about his org. and get some feedback, comments, etc.  I believe that there is a section of advertisements on MT, and that if the mod/admin. team thought it should be moved, that they would have done so.  Again, everybody is different, so how one person interprets it, I'm sure will be different from the next.

Mike


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## Aikia (Nov 13, 2004)

Mike,
Thanks for comming to my rescue, again. My intent was simply to receive input. I don't beleive I left a web site address, and I certainly am not trying to recruit members from this forum. My appologies if I am in error.  I have learned a lot from this thread. I know now that I represent the  left wing liberal contingent of the TKD party. I am on the exact opposite side when it comes to political issues. That's funny. Maybe we can all be more accepting in the future.
 It also occurs to me that my introduction to TKD in 1968 perhaps set the stage for my liberal bias. Mr. Kim was also a judo black belt. When we needed to throw or hold the opponent on the ground we used judo. Mr. Lee was for some reason skilled in western boxing. His assistant Mr. Davis ( primary teacher)  prefered boxing style punches. We used boxing at close quarters and made punishing contact. Few made it to black belt.
  I started out as a TKD black belt who was taught to supplement the natural limits of TKD with skills from other arts. In close I was a boxer, on the ground I was a judoka of sorts. Anything standing up and at a kicking distance was TKD. Come to think of it, I haven't changed much at all. I have continued to carry on the traditions taught to me in a very militaristic manner some  36 years ago. And by the way we called the art Korean Karate back then.
 I only intended to complete this one thread. Thank you to the members for the response.
Jerry Beasley


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## Marginal (Nov 14, 2004)

Aikia said:
			
		

> I started out as a TKD black belt who was taught to supplement the natural limits of TKD with skills from other arts. In close I was a boxer, on the ground I was a judoka of sorts. Anything standing up and at a kicking distance was TKD. Come to think of it, I haven't changed much at all. I have continued to carry on the traditions taught to me in a very militaristic manner some  36 years ago. And by the way we called the art Korean Karate back then.
> I only intended to complete this one thread. Thank you to the members for the response.
> Jerry Beasley


The really interesting thing is, plenty of TKD students and instructors in previous threads in this forum have said they endorse crosstraining or they've simply introduced extra material into their cirriculims to expand a student's TKD training and make it effective at more ranges. 

Despite this "great break" with tradition, they managed to say such things without polarizing the forum in the process. It's interesting that you elected to compare traditionalists to supporters of Arafat, and then adopted the stance of the liberal in the face of MichiganTKD's avatar while calling him a conservative. It's somewhat accurate terminology usage, but it's also loaded language that's designed to generate the negative responses you thrive on bemoaning. That way, nobody can disagree with any of your methods or approach to TKD (or simply, prefer their own) without appearing close-minded.


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## Miles (Nov 14, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> I've sat back and watched this thread unfold. A few overviews.........
> Cross training has always been practiced, even by the old masters. As for TKD not being adequate for CQC, I will agree that what is being taught today in many dojangs is sorely wanting. But that was not the case in the early days when TKD first entered our shores. ....
> Not meant to disrespect any of the parties involved, just offering a seperate viewpoint. :asian:


Disco is absolutely correct.

MichTKD, you should be aware that GM PARK, Hae Man worked at the Blue House with GM JI, Han Jae (Sin Moo Hapkido).  I know of several students of GM PARK, Hae Man who have very good hapkido skills (talking first hand experience, so to speak).  Also, the Korea Yudo College (now Yong In University, I believe), had many graduates who had backgrounds in TKD and Yudo.

Miles


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## ghostdog2 (Nov 16, 2004)

I was just browsing thru the site when I came on this thread. When read all at once and by an outsider to TKD, it's hard to see what all the fuss is about. The original post was @ 7 lines long and asked only for input and constructive criticism. Wow. It went downhill from there.
Common to many threads in this section is the complaint that TKD is not correctly perceived, has a bad reputation, doesn't get enough respect, etc., etc. With respect to all involved, this thread seems a text book example of the TKD "community" at war with itself; which may explain all of the above. Just a thought.


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## MichiganTKD (Nov 16, 2004)

Miles,

I'm not arguing that fact. It is well known that many Tae Kwon Do people are also versed in Hapkido, since they developed about the same time in the same region. I'm taling about having a camp or seminar with Tae Kwon Do Instructors who are also certified in JKD, grappling, MMA, etc. Talk about scattering your energy! Any one of those subjects would demand considerable attention and devotion. And now you want someone who is a Tae Kwon Do Instructor, JKD Instructor, MMA Instructor, AND kickboxing Instructor? Sorry, don't buy it. How good are they really going to be? I'd rather have someone who has devoted their life to one area but knows that area like nobody else. THAT person would earn my respect. Otherwise, it's just buffet martial arts. Take a little helping of each serving without really getting too much into it.
And regarding "Cane Grandmaster" Mark Shuey. Who exactly certified him as a "cane Grandmaster", or is this a title he bestowed on himself to sell more videotapes in Black Belt Magazine?


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## bignick (Nov 16, 2004)

ghostdog2 said:
			
		

> I was just browsing thru the site when I came on this thread. When read all at once and by an outsider to TKD, it's hard to see what all the fuss is about. The original post was @ 7 lines long and asked only for input and constructive criticism. Wow. It went downhill from there.
> Common to many threads in this section is the complaint that TKD is not correctly perceived, has a bad reputation, doesn't get enough respect, etc., etc. With respect to all involved, this thread seems a text book example of the TKD "community" at war with itself; which may explain all of the above. Just a thought.


The problem is that there is not really such a thing as a "TKD community"...WTF, ITF, ATA and countless other independent practioners and small organizations. All doing there own thing, practicing different forms.  Even within the WTF, some schools do palgwes, other schools do taeguks I believe some practice forms from other organizations as well.  Tae Kwon Do has just become a catch-all phrase used to describe a Korean or Korean based/influenced martial art with large emphasis on kicking.  Which is why there are various, ahem, polite differences in opinion from different students of the "art".


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## terryl965 (Nov 16, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> The problem is that there is not really such a thing as a "TKD community"...WTF, ITF, ATA and countless other independent practioners and small organizations. All doing there own thing, practicing different forms. Even within the WTF, some schools do palgwes, other schools do taeguks I believe some practice forms from other organizations as well. Tae Kwon Do has just become a catch-all phrase used to describe a Korean or Korean based/influenced martial art with large emphasis on kicking. Which is why there are various, ahem, polite differences in opinion from different students of the "art".


 Not all TKD'ers are like that the true TKD'ers are about justice to there roots. Traditional are not sport orientated and vice versas, very few are able to see the common thread between both aspect. In the 40 some odd years I've been envolved in the Art of Karate and TKD i have never talked down to another TKD'er, may not always agreed with them but excepted there views and beliefs. Not my place to judge just to accept. WTF, ITF, ATA just have there own take about TKD, they have yet to understand we are all toghether wheather we like it or not. MY HUMBLE OPION....


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## Miles (Nov 16, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> The problem is that there is not really such a thing as a "TKD community"...WTF, ITF, ATA and countless other independent practioners and small organizations. All doing there own thing, practicing different forms. Even within the WTF, some schools do palgwes, other schools do taeguks I believe some practice forms from other organizations as well. Tae Kwon Do has just become a catch-all phrase used to describe a Korean or Korean based/influenced martial art with large emphasis on kicking. Which is why there are various, ahem, polite differences in opinion from different students of the "art".


This is a problem BigNick.  It is a problem that the Kwans sought to correct in the early 60's and what the Kukkiwon is still trying to correct.  The overwhelming majority of students world-wide practice what many call "WTF" TKD.  The Kukkiwon has courses to teach instructors so that they are all teaching the same thing-a standardized way of performing techniques/terminology/poomsae/granting rank.  TKD should not be a catch-all phrase, but a uniformly performed martial art.

Independent?  I have no problem with cross-training.  In another thread, I mentioned my first (very positive) experience in Modern Arnis.  But, when I am teaching TKD (which by the way also has a standard spelling: Taekwondo), I try to stay as close to the Kukkiwon standard as possible.  

Miles
(now getting off his soapbox to go teach class


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## Adept (Nov 16, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Tae Kwon Do Instructors who are also certified in JKD, grappling, MMA, etc. Talk about scattering your energy! Any one of those subjects would demand considerable attention and devotion. And now you want someone who is a Tae Kwon Do Instructor, JKD Instructor, MMA Instructor, AND kickboxing Instructor? Sorry, don't buy it. How good are they really going to be?


 The only thing a multi-skilled person like this would be lacking in would be the hubris surrounding each style. The patterns, the idiosyncracies of movement, the protocol, etc. Now I agree that someone might not be the greatest in any single art, but one does not have to be the greatest to impart knowledge. To claim because they learn multiple styles that they cannot effectively teach any of them is asinine. It is like saying a boxing coach who also plays tennis and golf cannot effectively coach boxing. It makes no sense.


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## TigerWoman (Nov 16, 2004)

A black belt in Taekwondo has learned the basics and then becomes an assistant instructor, learning how to teach.  By the time he becomes a master, he knows details of forms, to be able to answer every question  that could be thrown at him.  He also has become a master of the technique and is also able to show that in any situation.   Even a second degree is not that.  I would think Hapkido, Kung Fu, Kenpo Karate are similar in that passing the black belt mark does not qualify you to teach much.  The quality isn't there YET.  So for a teacher to profess he is proficient in TKD, etc, etc. art just because he has spent 4 years in each or has taken a few years and learned the basic kicks and made up a curriculum of sorts from a smattering of each does not present each art to the student at it's fullest potential.  A master in TKD has spent roughly 19-20 years minimum and that's learning alot after reaching that 1st dan. Would you rather learn TKD, Boxing & Jujutsu etc. from a one college student or a seasoned pro who had his degree, of one art?  Its totally your choice, you get what you pay for. TW


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## Adept (Nov 16, 2004)

You dont have to be good at something to teach it. You only have to know how it is done, not be able to do it yourself.

 To be honest, I consider patterns and individual art idiosyncracies to be a waste of time. Patterns are a good way to get a CV workout, and they can help you imporve on your balance and power, but _any_ patterns are good for that. You dont need to learn the TKD ones, then the Kenpo ones, then the Karate ones. Once you have learnt the best kick for a situation, that kick can be applied in any art or style. For example, a sidekick is a sidekick in Karate, TKD, JKD, Muay Thai or Jujitsu. If it is the best kick for the situation, then use it. To have someone tell you "that is not how we do that kick in this style" is counter-productive. If the kick you already know is just as effective, then it doesnt matter if the foot on the ground is turned to 90 degrees or 180 degrees. Little things like that, the little things that seperate most styles, are usually a waste of time.

 Having said that, it all depends on your training goals. If you want to become a proficient martial artist, then the little differences between arts are irrelevant when they do not add effectiveness to your fighting. If you want so specialize in one thing (and suffer because of it, IMHO) then learning the ins and outs of a single style for 20 years might be your thing. But you will never be as well rounded as a cross-trained generic martial artist. A good fighter must be able to fight at long range (kicks) , medium range (punches) short range (elbows and knees) in the clinche and on the ground. Very few styles will teach you all those, and the ones that do often leave parts out. It is imperative to cross train to become as effective as you can.


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## TigerWoman (Nov 16, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> A good fighter must be able to fight at long range (kicks) , medium range (punches) short range (elbows and knees) in the clinche and on the ground. Very few styles will teach you all those, and the ones that do often leave parts out. It is imperative to cross train to become as effective as you can.



Taekwondo has this conception of only being able to fight at long range. That conception shows that the art is not really "known".  We fight inside as well. I think jumpbacks, crescents and twists are inside?  Plus the fakes, and spins we do to get inside. And punches, knifes, ridge, hammerfist, head, fingers, elbows, knees, sweeps, locks, in the clinch, and yes we do some ground.  We do streetfighting defenses too. I have left alot out.  So what you don't know about TKD is what I do know, and I'm only a 2nd dan level. And if you can't handle yourself in form, have the strength, balance, agility to do those kicks correctly and actually knock somebody out then whats the point of fighting?  And I do know there is considerable more because I see the difference. But only a master _would know,_ and that is the point.  TW


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## Adept (Nov 17, 2004)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> I think jumpbacks, crescents and twists are inside?


 I would call them medium range techniques myself. 



> I have left alot out.  So what you don't know about TKD is what I do know, and I'm only a 2nd dan level.


 I've spent eight years in TKD. I know about the techniques you've mentioned. What I am getting at is that TKD is not a complete art. While it does incorporate clinche work, ground work, locks and holds, sweeps and even the odd throw, it does not do them as effectively as other styles. TKD grappling and clinche work is no-where near as effective as Jujitsu or BJJ, for example.



> And if you can't handle yourself in form, have the strength, balance, agility to do those kicks correctly and actually knock somebody out then whats the point of fighting?


 I'm not sure what your point is here. I mentioned patterns as a good way to develop and maintain fitness, balance and agility. You can also learn those things from sparring, shadow boxing, basic technique work, anything really. I enjoy doing my patterns, I find it a very cathartic thing to do. But I do not believe they are necesary for being a good martial artist. 



> And I do know there is considerable more because I see the difference. But only a master _would know,_ and that is the point.  TW


 I think I agree. To be a master of a single art you must devote yourself to it. However, I do not believe that only a master of a single art can be a great martial artist (which I do not believe you have stated either) nor do I believe that devoting yourself to a single art is a good idea, or better than extensive cross-training.


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## TigerWoman (Nov 17, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> I would call them medium range techniques myself.



And close is hugging? No they are close range. 




> I've spent eight years in TKD. I know about the techniques you've mentioned. What I am getting at is that TKD is not a complete art. While it does incorporate clinche work, ground work, locks and holds, sweeps and even the odd throw, it does not do them as effectively as other styles. TKD grappling and clinche work is no-where near as effective as Jujitsu or BJJ, for example.



No art is the end all. If its a ground fight, we TKD'ers would be hurting. But then we train to not be in that position too. Not a woman's cup of tea. The Jujitsu guys would be hard put to defend against a flying sidekick too. But a TKD master, least the one I'm thinking of would probably knock you out or do major damage before you got anywhere near grappling and he's actually pretty good in locks and takedowns. Least for a smaller guy, he got the 6'4" guy who's a 2nd dan in TKD and Karate. Its all technique and he's quite good. I've had 8+ years in it too and still am a beginner, I feel, especially when I got to black belt and realized slowly what I didn't know.




> I'm not sure what your point is here. I mentioned patterns as a good way to develop and maintain fitness, balance and agility. You can also learn those things from sparring, shadow boxing, basic technique work, anything really. I enjoy doing my patterns, I find it a very cathartic thing to do. But I do not believe they are necesary for being a good martial artist.



They are a necessary and good way to _learn_ strength, balance and agility coming into the martial arts.  Those that can't do them usually denounce them. Those that can, usually love them as they have given them much. They are a way to learn and you don't even need a partner.  And when you do them correctly to a standard or better they are effective in judging your own work. Ever tape yourself and watch?  It is a form of sparring, technique work that is exacting. If I can throw a high double sidekick and snap and leave it out there for second, that training would be just as effective in sparring. 




> I think I agree. To be a master of a single art you must devote yourself to it. However, I do not believe that only a master of a single art can be a great martial artist (which I do not believe you have stated either) nor do I believe that devoting yourself to a single art is a good idea, or better than extensive cross-training.



I too, agree with cross-training in other art(s) after the master level.  We already have alot in our curriculum already that others would say is "cross-training" and that's enough until master level.  If I had started this at a much earlier age, I would have wanted to do Jujutsu, Kung fu, Hapkido or Kenpo.  But those that teach it should be at a master-read proficient pro- level, or their lack of complete training will be evidenced in their students as it slowly gets muddled in the waters. TW


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## Marginal (Nov 17, 2004)

ghostdog2 said:
			
		

> Common to many threads in this section is the complaint that TKD is not correctly perceived, has a bad reputation, doesn't get enough respect, etc., etc. With respect to all involved, this thread seems a text book example of the TKD "community" at war with itself; which may explain all of the above. Just a thought.



Oh please. As if you wouldn't say the exact same thing to any practitioner of a TMA.


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## DoxN4cer (Nov 17, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Jerry,
> 
> 
> First, Michael DePasquale is NOT a Tae Kwon Do Instructor. He teaches some Hapkido/Hwa Rang Do/Whatever else system.



Michael DePasquale (Sr and Jr) is a Jujutsu man.

Michael De Alba is a Hwa Rang Do guy.


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## MJS (Nov 17, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> The only thing a multi-skilled person like this would be lacking in would be the hubris surrounding each style. The patterns, the idiosyncracies of movement, the protocol, etc. Now I agree that someone might not be the greatest in any single art, but one does not have to be the greatest to impart knowledge. To claim because they learn multiple styles that they cannot effectively teach any of them is asinine. It is like saying a boxing coach who also plays tennis and golf cannot effectively coach boxing. It makes no sense.



Well said and I agree 100%!  It is possible to have someone train in more than 1 art at the same time.  I don't advocate crosstraining though until you've reached at least brown in your base art first.  




> A black belt in Taekwondo has learned the basics and then becomes an assistant instructor, learning how to teach. By the time he becomes a master, he knows details of forms, to be able to answer every question that could be thrown at him. He also has become a master of the technique and is also able to show that in any situation. Even a second degree is not that. I would think Hapkido, Kung Fu, Kenpo Karate are similar in that passing the black belt mark does not qualify you to teach much. The quality isn't there YET. So for a teacher to profess he is proficient in TKD, etc, etc. art just because he has spent 4 years in each or has taken a few years and learned the basic kicks and made up a curriculum of sorts from a smattering of each does not present each art to the student at it's fullest potential. A master in TKD has spent roughly 19-20 years minimum and that's learning alot after reaching that 1st dan. Would you rather learn TKD, Boxing & Jujutsu etc. from a one college student or a seasoned pro who had his degree, of one art? Its totally your choice, you get what you pay for. TW
> Yesterday 07:32 PM



Why does the TKD student have to wait until BB to understand the details in the forms??  Shouldn't they have been learning that all along?  A 2nd degree has not mastered the basics of a tech?  Ooook.....then when does that happen??  By the time a student reaches BB level, they should be quite capable of defending themselves in an attack!!  They sholdn't have to wait 20 yrs. in order for that to happen.  As for teaching...thats usually a requirement for BB.  I started helping around Brown.



> We fight inside as well. I think jumpbacks, crescents and twists are inside?



In a clinch situation, I really don't see how a jumpback is going to work??   :idunno:   An explaination would be helpful!




> The Jujitsu guys would be hard put to defend against a flying sidekick too. But a TKD master, least the one I'm thinking of would probably knock you out or do major damage before you got anywhere near grappling



Ummm...ok :idunno: 

Mike


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## Marginal (Nov 17, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Why does the TKD student have to wait until BB to understand the details in the forms??



Not all have to. It's up to the instructor. Some beleive that learning grappling etc before BB makes your kicks worse somehow. (Shrug)



> Shouldn't they have been learning that all along?  A 2nd degree has not mastered the basics of a tech?  Ooook.....then when does that happen??  By the time a student reaches BB level, they should be quite capable of defending themselves in an attack!!



At least in the USTF, they keep introducing moves at 2nd degree. Can't instantly master a tech and all that. Still you should be able to defend yourself with what you've learned up to that point. 



> In a clinch situation, I really don't see how a jumpback is going to work??   :idunno:   An explaination would be helpful!



I think the idea here is that you hit them with a retreating jump kick when they try to close the distance. Bill Wallace had success with a retreating jumping back kick against karate fighters that were trying to get inside his kicking range for example. 

That aside, TKD does have techniques for when you are in clinch range. Whether you train them is the main question. If you just leave it as a technique in the pattern unexamined it's not gonna do you a whole lotta good. There are at least two clinches followed by knees in the ITF color belt patterns for example. Not too useful on their own, but if the concepts are trained outside the pattern...


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## MJS (Nov 17, 2004)

Marginal said:
			
		

> Not all have to. It's up to the instructor. Some beleive that learning grappling etc before BB makes your kicks worse somehow. (Shrug)



Thank you for the reply!  I guess what I was referring to here was being able to understand what you're doing in the forms.  What is this move for, etc.  I find that its useful to know in the event you're teaching the form and the question is asked of you.  That, and also because it helps the person doing the form understand it better.





> At least in the USTF, they keep introducing moves at 2nd degree. Can't instantly master a tech and all that. Still you should be able to defend yourself with what you've learned up to that point.



Agreed!  Even in Kenpo, techs. additions, etc. are still taking place at 2nd, but again, I was ref. to understanding the basics of the tech.





> I think the idea here is that you hit them with a retreating jump kick when they try to close the distance. Bill Wallace had success with a retreating jumping back kick against karate fighters that were trying to get inside his kicking range for example.



Thanks again!  In this position, I was referring to once the clinch has already been attained, not during the process of moving in.  I do see what you're ref. to though.



> That aside, TKD does have techniques for when you are in clinch range. Whether you train them is the main question. If you just leave it as a technique in the pattern unexamined it's not gonna do you a whole lotta good. There are at least two clinches followed by knees in the ITF color belt patterns for example. Not too useful on their own, but if the concepts are trained outside the pattern...



 :asian: 

Mike


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## TigerWoman (Nov 17, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Why does the TKD student have to wait until BB to understand the details in the forms??  Shouldn't they have been learning that all along?  A 2nd degree has not mastered the basics of a tech?  Ooook.....then when does that happen??  By the time a student reaches BB level, they should be quite capable of defending themselves in an attack!!  They sholdn't have to wait 20 yrs. in order for that to happen.  As for teaching...thats usually a requirement for BB.  I started helping around Brown.



I did not say "a 2nd degree has not mastered the basics of a tech". We learn basics kicks, 30 of them, by black belt, but then there are all kinds of variations to those and new technique we have yet to learn.  Yes, a TKD student learns details in forms but not nearly everything and I continued to say that a master would be able to answer any question because he has heard it all and investigated it all.  You learn by teaching. I was teaching at red belt. It doesn't mean I knew very much except basics, and alot of kicks I could do, but not do _well_ like jump spin heel to a 2 finger hold.  And that's the same even for the twenty-somethings who were red belts. (our brown level)

A black belt knows the basics and can demonstrate them correctly, and can defend themselves. He/she is an assistant teacher like I said and it is also required so that they learn how to teach. There's a big difference though in mastery of all technique, be able to use it fully to the level of the art in a fighting situation, and be able to teach with complete understanding.  I not just talking about self defense. There is also a mental part to it that is slowly attained. But I am repeating my past post. 



> In a clinch situation, I really don't see how a jumpback is going to work??   :idunno:   An explaination would be helpful!



I didn't say clinch, I said close.  We do a jumpback from close range, not with arms wrapped around, or grabbed. That's what I think clinch is, anyway. If my body is one foot away,  it is easy to do a jumpback, crescent, twist, high round or self defense moves too, ie elbow, knife, knee to groin, chambered sidekick to break the knee etc. TW


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## MJS (Nov 17, 2004)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> I did not say "a 2nd degree has not mastered the basics of a tech". We learn basics kicks, 30 of them, by black belt, but then there are all kinds of variations to those and new technique we have yet to learn.  Yes, a TKD student learns details in forms but not nearly everything and I continued to say that a master would be able to answer any question because he has heard it all and investigated it all.  You learn by teaching. I was teaching at red belt. It doesn't mean I knew very much except basics, and alot of kicks I could do, but not do _well_ like jump spin heel to a 2 finger hold.  And that's the same even for the twenty-somethings who were red belts. (our brown level)
> 
> A black belt knows the basics and can demonstrate them correctly, and can defend themselves. He/she is an assistant teacher like I said and it is also required so that they learn how to teach. There's a big difference though in mastery of all technique, be able to use it fully to the level of the art in a fighting situation, and be able to teach with complete understanding.  I not just talking about self defense. There is also a mental part to it that is slowly attained. But I am repeating my past post.



I guess the part in question is this:




> A black belt in Taekwondo has learned the basics and then becomes an assistant instructor, learning how to teach. By the time he becomes a master, he knows details of forms, to be able to answer every question that could be thrown at him. He also has become a master of the technique and is also able to show that in any situation. Even a second degree is not that



Granted, the longer the student stays in the art, of course, the better they get.  However, in the above quote, it appeared to me that even at BB level, there is still fuzzy areas, that should be able to be addressed.  I'd have students come up and ask questions of me all the time, and 98% of the time, I could provide them with an answer.  The times that I couldn't...I'd inquire with my inst. and get back to the student.  





> I didn't say clinch, I said close.  We do a jumpback from close range, not with arms wrapped around, or grabbed. That's what I think clinch is, anyway. If my body is one foot away,  it is easy to do a jumpback, crescent, twist, high round or self defense moves too, ie elbow, knife, knee to groin, chambered sidekick to break the knee etc. TW



Again, I think that there was miscommunication here.  Actually, you did say clinch.




> Taekwondo has this conception of only being able to fight at long range. That conception shows that the art is not really "known". We fight inside as well. I think jumpbacks, crescents and twists are inside? Plus the fakes, and spins we do to get inside. And punches, knifes, ridge, hammerfist, head, fingers, elbows, knees, sweeps, locks, in the *clinch*



In post #55, you did mention 'close'.  Actually, the "clinch" range is where you'd be grabbing your opp., doing your standing grappling applications.  In that range, getting off any kick other than a knee or stomp will be quite difficult.

Mike


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## TigerWoman (Nov 18, 2004)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> . And punches, knifes, ridge, hammerfist, head, fingers, elbows, knees, sweeps, locks, in the clinch, and yes we do some ground.



Um, I was continuing on with what in TKD we do, not all in the clinch but we do work in the clinch for self defense.  You just can't take the word out of context and say I said something else with it.

How this got miscommunicated:  earlier, I was answering about close range, "inside" where jumpback etc. is effective.  I don't know how you got it mixed up with clinch. Maybe here:
Quote me:
We fight inside as well. I think jumpbacks, crescents and twists are inside?

Quote MJS:
In a clinch situation, I really don't see how a jumpback is going to work??  An explaination would be helpful!


Yeah, I inquire with my instructor too when as a teacher I can't answer someone's question.  I also hear alot of questions for my instructor, a master, that I can't answer but he can. Imagine all the questions we all don't know to ask. I can imagine. As I learn, I have more questions. In fact, I probably ask the most in our mostly BB class at noon. But that doesn't mean I'm "fuzzy".  TW


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## MJS (Nov 18, 2004)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> Um, I was continuing on with what in TKD we do, not all in the clinch but we do work in the clinch for self defense.  You just can't take the word out of context and say I said something else with it.
> 
> How this got miscommunicated:  earlier, I was answering about close range, "inside" where jumpback etc. is effective.  I don't know how you got it mixed up with clinch. Maybe here:
> Quote me:
> ...



Well, it just goes to show how hard it is at times, to type what we're thinking, and make sure that the people reading it understand it.  As I've said countless times before, we're all different!  What works for one, may not work for another.  As for the switching to other arts...I know many people who study mult. arts, are able to explain things clearly, and are still effective with everything they do.  Its really no different than a college student having a double major, or a major and a minor.  

In closing, I'd like to say one last thing.  What does all of this have to do with the original thread???? :-offtopic 

Mike


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## Marginal (Nov 18, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> In closing, I'd like to say one last thing.  What does all of this have to do with the original thread???? :-offtopic
> 
> Mike



MMA trolls appeared.


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## ghostdog2 (Nov 21, 2004)

No, it wasn't the mma trolls. It happened like this:

1) Dr. Beasley posted a short, courteous request for input: what do you/we value in an organization.
2) Most responses were sincere and on point.
3) Some few, you know who you are, decided to be critical of Dr. Beasley because his group advocated supplementing traditional tkd with other MA's.  A no-no to some.
4) A discussion of techniques in tkd and other ma's and their suitability in differing circumstances evolved naturally from there.
It all made for good reading and some useful insights, or so I thought 'til I realized I'd been trolled.


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## 5 hand swords (Nov 21, 2004)

Aikia said:
			
		

> Hello. My name is Jerry Beasley. I am founder of AIKIA. The "K" stands for Korean martial arts(Taekwondo,Tangsoodo,Hapkido), Karate, Kickboxing and Kenpo. I begain AIKIA as the American Independent Korean Karate Instructors Association in 1979. I would like to hear from any current or former members. Let me know what you liked or disliked. We are in the process of updating materials so I would appreciate any constructive comments. If you are not a member but you have heard of us let me know what you think.
> We are here to serve. What do you look for in a national organization? Reputation,price,integrety.service?
> (I read posts every two or three days,please be patient for a response).
> 
> ...


Having read the five + pages the thread is now at I can only say I enjoyed the way your have handled yourself here, Welcome Jerry.


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## Miles (Nov 21, 2004)

ghostdog2 said:
			
		

> No, it wasn't the mma trolls. It happened like this:
> 
> .......It all made for good reading and some useful insights, or so I thought 'til I realized I'd been trolled.


It has been an interesting thread.  I don't know about the MMA trolls-everyone is entitled to an opinion, one just has to determine what weight to give that opinion.

I checked out Jerry's organization through the link he provided.  While I disagree with the idea of promoting someone to higher TKD rank for their exposure to other arts, I absolutely believe such exposure is healthy.   It is like when I studied the French language in high school, I learned more about English.

Good luck with your training.

Miles


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## jukado1 (Nov 21, 2004)

I'm sorry to catch up with this thread so late, but I would like to comment on 2 points, First, If your happy doing whatever your doing, CONTINUE DOING IT. If your happy doing exactly what you are taught, doing forms, one steps, and traditional sparring, Enjoy yourself,  BUT If you claim to be teaching any level of combat your deluding yourself.  Second point, A black Belt is only of value within the organization that awards it, If I were to walk in to your TKD school I would doubt that they would recognize my black belt in jukado, But if you walk in to my school (if I had one) What would your belt be worth in my style, just like you don't let a lawyer do surgery or a doctor defend you in court. As far as awarding 9th and 10 degree black belts, anything above 6th or 7th is awarded not for what you can do in martial arts, BUT what you have done for the martial arts,  Gentleman such as Bill Wallace, and Mr. Beasley had meany years of promoting the arts, they have helped  bring meany people into the arts, and helped meany improve, they even if they were personally mediocre in karate, have done more then some great master who has spent 50 years teaching his 26 students in his tiny garage.


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## Marginal (Nov 21, 2004)

ghostdog2 said:
			
		

> No, it wasn't the mma trolls. It happened like this:
> 
> 1) Dr. Beasley posted a short, courteous request for input: what do you/we value in an organization.



His initial post asked what people thought of AIKA. (It's right there iin the title.) 



> 2) Most responses were sincere and on point.



Given what he asked, people disagreeing with his approach are on point as well. 



> 3) Some few, you know who you are, decided to be critical of Dr. Beasley because his group advocated supplementing traditional tkd with other MA's.  A no-no to some.



No, most that disagreed with his approach was due to promoting people in TKD for training in outside arts. Few people are against training in other arts, just the idea that learning Judo qualifies you for a rank advancement in TKD. Since you vehemently disagree with anything that seperates one from of traiing for another, I don't expect you to respect or understand this however. 



> 4) A discussion of techniques in tkd and other ma's and their suitability in differing circumstances evolved naturally from there.
> It all made for good reading and some useful insights, or so I thought 'til I realized I'd been trolled.



You're the one who trolls the TKD forum. You dislike the art, you dislike the training, you have nothing but contempt for the cummunity, and you only ever enter into discussions here to tell people how backwards their participation in MA is. 

You only think you're doing people a favor.


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## 5 hand swords (Nov 21, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> A. Yes I am from Michigan (Jackson to be exact) B. Can't stand Ted Nugent. I think he is an arrogant self-righteous SOB personally. Why do people think that everyone in Michigan worships or admires Ted Nugent?
> Anyway, your description about the ranking process just proves my point. There is only one person in the world who can recommend me, and one person who receives my testing fee-my Instructor. He knows me, my technique, my mind, my life, and my credibility. He alone determines my eligibility to test.
> Why do we pay high fees to test for Dan ranking? Several reasons. First, testing fees are income for your Instructor. Even if he has a full time job (which he does), that is still his money, because you are testing within his organization and using his name. It is his money to do as he sees fit.
> Second, our organization Dan test is held in the gymnasium of our community college. Using this gym is not free and not cheap. Testing fees go to help pay for this, as well as mandatory insurance coverage. Why? Because Dan testing is a major accomplishment, something you should be proud of. Consequently, Dan testing is held in a location meant to convey high ceremony. The local dojang just wouldn't cut it.
> ...


Bet you hate Bob Seger Too.
Sure you from MI? .


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## 5 hand swords (Nov 21, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> A.
> Anyway, your description about the ranking process just proves my point. There is only one person in the world who can recommend me, and one person who receives my testing fee-my Instructor. He knows me, my technique, my mind, my life, and my credibility. He alone determines my eligibility to test.
> .


Sound like you a happy slave boy.


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## MichiganTKD (Nov 21, 2004)

First, I am no slave. Unlike some people, I did not earn black belt, break away from my Instructor, and teach on my own the first chance I got. This is what separates the traditionalists like me and others from guys like you. Guys like you feel no loyalty to your Instructor or anyone. Traditionalists are not slaves. Nobody forces me to practice and believe what I do. I trust and follow my Instructor like I trust and follow my parents. Why? Because they have earned my trust. Unlike some Instructors, mine did not break away from his Instructor the first chance he got, create his own half-baked style, and hand out questionable ranks. 
If I told my Instructor tommorow that I was leaving, he would not try to stop me. He might want to know why, but he would say "it's your choice." But I wouldn't do that. You want to know why? Because the MA community is full of guys like you who think they can do much better on their own mixing and matching martial arts and seeing how much cash they can bring in. They end up creating their own self proclaimed style that they tell gullible followers is the ultimate, and that they are an "independent organization." And since they have no loyalty to their original Instructor, they end up learning from whatever half baked no talent comes along. So you have this mish mosh of TKD/judo/hapkido/wrestling/boxing/"reality street defense". Arts that, while fine alone, have nothing in common. Why in the world would I want to be a part of that?
I went on Jerry's website to find out a little about him. Aside from pure self promotion and superlatives about how great and wonderful he is, he is also the author of a book called "In Search of the Ultimate Martial Art."
Finally, AIKIA is simply another organization that tries to combine all styles into one handy group. These guys and groups are a dime a dozen, and they all seem to hang out together.


----------



## 5 hand swords (Nov 22, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> First, I am no slave. Unlike some people, I did not earn black belt, break away from my Instructor, and teach on my own the first chance I got. This is what separates the traditionalists like me and others from guys like you. Guys like you feel no loyalty to your Instructor or anyone. Traditionalists are not slaves. Nobody forces me to practice and believe what I do. I trust and follow my Instructor like I trust and follow my parents. Why? Because they have earned my trust. Unlike some Instructors, mine did not break away from his Instructor the first chance he got, create his own half-baked style, and hand out questionable ranks.
> If I told my Instructor tommorow that I was leaving, he would not try to stop me. He might want to know why, but he would say "it's your choice." But I wouldn't do that. You want to know why? Because the MA community is full of guys like you who think they can do much better on their own mixing and matching martial arts and seeing how much cash they can bring in. They end up creating their own self proclaimed style that they tell gullible followers is the ultimate, and that they are an "independent organization." And since they have no loyalty to their original Instructor, they end up learning from whatever half baked no talent comes along. So you have this mish mosh of TKD/judo/hapkido/wrestling/boxing/"reality street defense". Arts that, while fine alone, have nothing in common. Why in the world would I want to be a part of that?
> I went on Jerry's website to find out a little about him. Aside from pure self promotion and superlatives about how great and wonderful he is, he is also the author of a book called "In Search of the Ultimate Martial Art."
> Finally, AIKIA is simply another organization that tries to combine all styles into one handy group. These guys and groups are a dime a dozen, and they all seem to hang out together.


Just saying if only 1 person in world can give you validation....


----------



## Adept (Nov 22, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> First, I am no slave. Unlike some people, I did not earn black belt, break away from my Instructor, and teach on my own the first chance I got. This is what separates the traditionalists like me and others from guys like you. Guys like you feel no loyalty to your Instructor or anyone. Traditionalists are not slaves. Nobody forces me to practice and believe what I do. I trust and follow my Instructor like I trust and follow my parents. Why? Because they have earned my trust. Unlike some Instructors, mine did not break away from his Instructor the first chance he got, create his own half-baked style, and hand out questionable ranks.
> If I told my Instructor tommorow that I was leaving, he would not try to stop me. He might want to know why, but he would say "it's your choice." But I wouldn't do that. You want to know why? Because the MA community is full of guys like you who think they can do much better on their own mixing and matching martial arts and seeing how much cash they can bring in. They end up creating their own self proclaimed style that they tell gullible followers is the ultimate, and that they are an "independent organization." And since they have no loyalty to their original Instructor, they end up learning from whatever half baked no talent comes along. So you have this mish mosh of TKD/judo/hapkido/wrestling/boxing/"reality street defense". Arts that, while fine alone, have nothing in common. Why in the world would I want to be a part of that?
> I went on Jerry's website to find out a little about him. Aside from pure self promotion and superlatives about how great and wonderful he is, he is also the author of a book called "In Search of the Ultimate Martial Art."
> Finally, AIKIA is simply another organization that tries to combine all styles into one handy group. These guys and groups are a dime a dozen, and they all seem to hang out together.


 Well, thats a nice long, and a touch incoherent, post. But I am somewhat at a loss as to your actual point? 

 What are you trying to say?

 MMA are trechnically inferior to traditional styles of any kind? Or just inferior to traditional TKD?

 People who study and teach more than one style are unable to teach either effectively? Or just people who teach TKD and something else?

 Is the philosophy of JKD or MMA (Take what works, leave the rest) inferior to that of traditional martial arts, or just inferior to traditional TKD?

 What is it that has put a bee in your bonnet. And please, try to be clear so we can all understand your points.


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## Marginal (Nov 22, 2004)

5 hand swords said:
			
		

> Just saying if only 1 person in world can give you validation....



"Orange from Bob Perry (RIP) 70's 1st color belts issue type."

Wonder what that means in this light...


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## 5 hand swords (Nov 22, 2004)

Marginal said:
			
		

> "Orange from Bob Perry (RIP) 70's 1st color belts issue type."
> 
> Wonder what that means in this light...


Means not active or training in M/A any more but just talking - see my past posts.
I learned in what in old school days EPK etc.
my Sensi's day was white brown black ok?
When I start - was like white orange, green, brown
later add yellow and purple, blue, etc
Belts change,
Katas change
M/A in America change
(1 movie and a Black Gia is the Bad Guy LOL)
The people back then kicked *** cause no one had a lawyer.
If you know who Robert (Bob) Perry was in History of American Kenpo a little help here?
I am legit and only claiming my orange belt so thats what it means in this light,
I took hard *** Training and some good skills etc to make it and am proud of my rank and lineage.
It has served me well in the real world.
P.S when I start in MA if you said TKD in USA people said HUH?


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## Aikia (Nov 22, 2004)

Michigan,
 Seems that some people, like you for example, get so taken in by the one and only way mentality that they loose sight of reality. As head of a TKD organization I hear horror stories all the time from instructors that are afraid to leave their "Masters". They complain that they will loose their rank. There are problems in TKD.
  Flip through a big city phone book. Almost everyone is a 8-10th dan. Almost every Korean is a "Korean national champion". Now it seems in style to be a "Ph.D." as well. When you can buy rank and title from the  various "traditional" associations there seems little need for skill. We need an alternative.
 You can not buy a dan rank from AIKIA. They are not for sale. You have to earn them. I work primarily with instructors that have decided that there is more to martial arts that one style of TKD. That mentality of staying with one style for life is like driving one car for life. A pick up truck may be great for hauling lumber but it lacks the comfort for long distance travel. A sports car works great on the highway but is a lost cause on the back roads of Michigan.
  Old style Chung do Kwan may be perfect for the dojang but try entering an Olympic TKD competition and see how out dated your art has become. Get in a scuffel with a college wrestler an see how fast you end up on the ground. If you get attacked by a knife fighter you had better have something other than those old timey knife defenses to save your backside. AIKIA TKD instructors have learned that to answer different self defense/competition questions they must learn from different instructors. No single art/instructor has all the answers.
 Michigan you have got to get with it. The need for self defense and the way in which we must respond in self defense has changed. By your answers it appears you have not. By your standards you would ask us to fight a war with M1s. It worked for the heros in WW2. Let's not change a thing. Right?
 I know a lot of people that prefer traditional stick/recurve bows for hunting. They have a great time. My brother is a state champion in single action handgun (45 colt) shooting. It is O.K. to like tradition. The old ways have merit. But don't complain about the modern hunter with a compound bow that shoots faster and more accurate. Or the 9mm enthusiast that can fire off 9 shots before you can  pop the second cap.

  Michigan you are a complainer.  You sound like an old tart. In TKD history the physical skills have always varied from one instructor to another. Tradition is always wrong when it is used as an excuse for limiting the practitioner to incompetence. Tradition is always right when it serves as a social structure to bond groups in a positive way together.

 AIKIA serves like minded individuals that choose to update their performance level in self defense and sport competition. To do so they must think out of the box that traditionalists seem stuck in. When they have learned from others and improved they become better TKD instructors.
 You have personally attacked my reputation, my teachers and my organization. In so doing you have identified your self as  master whiner. I see on other posts you try for attention by whining an complaining. There is room for both sides. Please by all means enjoy your participation in TKD. The rest of us will also.
Dr.Beasley


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## Adept (Nov 22, 2004)

Aikia said:
			
		

> Michigan you are a complainer.  You sound like an old tart.


 

 Sigged.


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## Adept (Nov 22, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> Well, thats a nice long, and a touch incoherent, post. But I am somewhat at a loss as to your actual point?
> 
> What are you trying to say?
> 
> ...


 In response to this post, I recieved this message, by way of a negative reputation point:

_Yeah! Why would &quot;You a slave boy&quot; piss MTKD off?_

 If anyone knows what on earth this person is trying to say, please let me know. If the person who sent this reads it, please elaborate. I enjoy a well-reasoned debate with points and counter-points supported by as much credible evidence as is possible. Anonymous gobbledegook sniping, however, is not my thing.


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## MichiganTKD (Nov 22, 2004)

Jerry,

In case you didn't realize, Tae Kwon Do was originally designed and used as self defense for the Korean police and military. Believe it or not, people carried knives, guns, and weapons back then. Just because people do grappling (as opposed to when then they didn't?), doesn't mean the need for traditional MA has lessened. You honestly think that traditional Tae Kwon Do and MA are outdated and needs to be supplemented? Spoken by someone who truly sounds like they never received indepth coverage of Tae Kwon Do. I don't care what your so-called rank certificate says. 
You know, you sound like someone from the 60's who says "man, those traditions you old dudes keep doing are, like, so outdated man. Ya gotta keep up with the times."
Guys like you fall prey to every trend and movement that comes along. You don't have a solid foundation. It's all about the next big thing. Today it's grappling and BJJ. Tomorrow it will be something else.
And whether or not traditional Chung Do Kwan would work in an Olympic ring means nothing to me. I know full well it wouldn't work. I don't practice Olympic style Tae Kwon Do. Some of our black belts do. They comprise our organization team that has fought internationally.
Since it is likely that Tae Kwon Do will lose its spot in the Olympics, it is a moot point anyway.


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## Adept (Nov 22, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Spoken by someone who truly sounds like they never received indepth coverage of Tae Kwon Do.


 So we can infer from this then, that your stance can be summarised as such:

_Once someone has recieved an in-depth coverage of TKD, then one can never discover a technique from another style that may be more effective or efficient.

 Furthermore, anyone who trains in multiple styles, or who blends styles (to any degree) is morally reprihensible and unable to effectively teach TKD of any kind._

 Now, if I'm off-base there at all, let me know. I'm trying to do the best I can given your lack of actual points and stances.


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## The Kai (Nov 22, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> So we can infer from this then, that your stance can be summarised as such:
> 
> _Once someone has recieved an in-depth coverage of TKD, then one can never discover a technique from another style that may be more effective or efficient._
> 
> ...


Actually I think the point is that the study of one martial art is a lifetime endevear.

When do you statrt blending styles, are you sure you gotht he point of the first one?  Did you just get frustrated and moved on to something else?


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## Adept (Nov 22, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Actually I think the point is that the study of one martial art is a lifetime endevear.


 I can agree with that. However, I disagree with the assertion that studying a seperate art, or combining parts of arts into others is a negative thing. It's like learning anything. You can study TKD and at the same time you could learn another language, take a university course, learn to drive, learn to fly, surf or hang-glide. Just like you could also lean boxing, muay thai or systema.

 In fact, having studied one martial art for a few years makes it much easier to pick up another one, since the basics of balance, strength and body mechanics have already been learned.



> When do you start blending styles, are you sure you gotht he point of the first one? Did you just get frustrated and moved on to something else?


 Well, it depends on how you define 'point'. the point can be to reach a high rank with a good level of proficiency in all skill areas covered by that style. Or it can mean effective RBSD. Or it can just mean extra fitness, mental discipline, or strength. IMHO, you can start blending styles as soon as you are competent enough to decide for yourself when something is more effective or efficient than something else.


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## Flatlander (Nov 22, 2004)

I'm having trouble understanding why any of you involved in this discussion would begrudge a martial artist the choice that they have made. I'm curious what qualifies any of you to determine, based on the text that you are reading, that MichiganTKD is:

- missing some truth that you claim to knowledge of
- inferior because he sticks to his principles
- less of a martial artist because he refuses to dilute the art he practices.

It brings to mind a question. If there were no people like MichiganTKD who dedicate their lives to the mastery of ONE SINGLE art, what would the future of the arts look like? It seems reasonable to suppose that if everyone were to blend and incorporate things from other arts into their art, that the original essence of these arts would become changed. 

I think that there is a need for people to preserve the essence of these arts so as to ensure that there is that essence to be carried forward into the future. When you change the template, subsequent copies are different. I see a value in this preservation, if for no other reason, so that these traditions are not lost in the future.

Why is this a problem for anyone? Are those of you who are attempting to convince him that he is wrong in his view so lacking in your own self assurance that you require his validation? Do your own work, and leave this man to his. We all have the freedom of choice - so allow him that and move on.

Let me also include here that I do not practice the art of Tae Kwon Do. I have no attatchment to it. That is not my motivation for this post. I see a man being picked apart for standing by his principles. I respect a man with that kind of loyalty, dedication, and perseverance, and think it is a necessary component of the global Martial Arts community.

These are my opinions, not those of Martial Talk. I post as a member of the board, not as a Moderator.


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## KenpoTess (Nov 22, 2004)

*Moderator Note. 

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314 

Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile).

 Thank you,

~Tess
-MT S. Moderator-*


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## Adept (Nov 22, 2004)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Why is this a problem for anyone? Are those of you who are attempting to convince him that he is wrong in his view so lacking in your own self assurance that you require his validation? Do your own work, and leave this man to his. We all have the freedom of choice - so allow him that and move on.


 To start with, I dont believe I have made any personal attacks on MTKD. If I let one slip through, I apologise.

 To address the bulk of your post; We are not attacking, but defending. MTKD has, for the most part, been the more aggressive party in this discussion, claiming that a single, traditional style is more effective than any possible combination of styles. 

 The thread then turned into a mostly well reasoned debate about the merits of either cross-training or mixing styles versus sticking with a single style for your entire life. It is MTKD who has been on the attack for the most part, not the rest of the board. If we were all to simply let other people do what they want and get on with our own thing, then we may as well close down this entire site bar the help sections. We all, in all areas of these forums, have claims and opinions. We say "I think this way is better, and this is why" Someone else will say "Okay, but have you considered this other thing?" and a debate or discussion will flow from there. This is not, in and of itself, a bad thing.

 We arent saying to MTKD that he shouldnt train the way he does, we are saying this is the way _we_ train, and this is why. He is saying we are wrong, and is reluctant in explaining why he thinks that is.


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## Flatlander (Nov 22, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> To address the bulk of your post; We are not attacking, but defending. MTKD has, for the most part, been the more aggressive party in this discussion, claiming that a single, traditional style is more effective than any possible combination of styles.


No, he hasn't. I just read the entire thread, and found no such proclamation. I see you trying to project that statement onto him in a couple of places, however.





> The thread then turned into a mostly well reasoned debate about the merits of either cross-training or mixing styles versus sticking with a single style for your entire life.


Which is off topic.





> It is MTKD who has been on the attack for the most part, not the rest of the board. If we were all to simply let other people do what they want and get on with our own thing, then we may as well close down this entire site bar the help sections.


I don't think that the point of the forum is to convince others that their ways are wrong. I think that it's here so that we can share with like minded individuals. 





> We arent saying to MTKD that he shouldnt train the way he does, we are saying this is the way _we_ train, and this is why. He is saying we are wrong, and is reluctant in explaining why he thinks that is.


I suggest re-reading the thread in the context of the original premise.


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## Adept (Nov 22, 2004)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> No, he hasn't. I just read the entire thread, and found no such proclamation. I see you trying to project that statement onto him in a couple of places, however.


 _You honestly think that traditional Tae Kwon Do and MA are outdated and needs to be supplemented? Spoken by someone who truly sounds like they never received indepth coverage of Tae Kwon Do. I don't care what your so-called rank certificate says. 
 You know, you sound like someone from the 60's who says "man, those traditions you old dudes keep doing are, like, so outdated man. Ya gotta keep up with the times."
 Guys like you fall prey to every trend and movement that comes along. You don't have a solid foundation. It's all about the next big thing. Today it's grappling and BJJ. Tomorrow it will be something else.

 Guys like you feel no loyalty to your Instructor or anyone... Unlike some Instructors, mine did not break away from his Instructor the first chance he got, create his own half-baked style, and hand out questionable ranks.

 And since they have no loyalty to their original Instructor, they end up learning from whatever half baked no talent comes along. So you have this mish mosh of TKD/judo/hapkido/wrestling/boxing/"reality street defense". Arts that, while fine alone, have nothing in common. Why in the world would I want to be a part of that?

 someone who is a Tae Kwon Do Instructor, JKD Instructor, MMA Instructor, AND kickboxing Instructor? Sorry, don't buy it. How good are they really going to be?... it's just buffet martial arts. Take a little helping of each serving without really getting too much into it._

 The text in italics is from several different posts by MTKD. I would not consider it to be aggresive or rude, but I would consider it to be in disagreement on the ethos of cross-training or mixing styles. He disagrees either because he feels it is inferior to his own style of training, or because he is playing the devils advocate. His posts have, IMHO, been too impassioned to be the devils advocate, hence I feel confident in the former assumption.



> Which is off topic.


 So long as the thread is civil, topic doesnt matter much. One cannot force the direction of a conversation without engendering much ill will.



> I don't think that the point of the forum is to convince others that their ways are wrong. I think that it's here so that we can share with like minded individuals.


 And what a dull place life would be, and how short these threads would be if all we did was agree. Without a challenge to our views, we wont know when we are wrong. It isn't about proving other people wrong, so much as making sure _we_ are right, and knowing when we are not. If I was to state, in a well reasoned manner why I feel all MA training is useless in self defense situations, I would quite rightly be set straight. I could then learn from that, and re-appraise my stance on the issue. This is the spirit of debate and discussion.


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## Flatlander (Nov 22, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> The text in italics is from several different posts by MTKD. I would not consider it to be aggresive or rude, but I would consider it to be in disagreement on the ethos of cross-training or mixing styles. He disagrees either because he feels it is inferior to his own style of training, or because he is playing the devils advocate. His posts have, IMHO, been too impassioned to be the devils advocate, hence I feel confident in the former assumption.


An assumption, nonetheless.  However, I'm not terribly attatched to your beliefs.  Interpret how you choose.  Just be aware of the differences between truth and assumptions.





> So long as the thread is civil, topic doesnt matter much. One cannot force the direction of a conversation without engendering much ill will.


From the forum rules and policies for your reference: Please post to the correct forum, for a reason and on topic.


> And what a dull place life would be, and how short these threads would be if all we did was agree. Without a challenge to our views, we wont know when we are wrong. It isn't about proving other people wrong, so much as making sure _we_ are right, and knowing when we are not. If I was to state, in a well reasoned manner why I feel all MA training is useless in self defense situations, I would quite rightly be set straight. I could then learn from that, and re-appraise my stance on the issue. This is the spirit of debate and discussion.


I agree with you wholeheartedly, provided that the discussion is friendly, and productive. :asian:

I'm outta here - back to discussion, folks.


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## Aikia (Nov 22, 2004)

Michican,
You never did state your name. From your sparse profile it appears that you are an aid to a nurse. 
 I very much support and beleive in your right to express tradition and classical martial arts. But I also beleive that there is a place for non-classical TKD. I agree with those members that feel that your posts have been agressive and intended to attack anyone that does not agree with you.
 This will be my final post on the subject.

Jerry Beasley, Ed.d.


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## The Kai (Nov 22, 2004)

Dr. Beasley

Since this is how you fell the need to be addressed.  I think you are out of line.  take a step back and RELAX
Todd


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## ghostdog2 (Nov 22, 2004)

Dr. Beasley:
Thank you for a topic that, for the most part, generated good postings and interesting information. Your patience may have worn a bit thin, but you showed respect and courtesy to the end. Thanks.
P.S. Marginal: Where did all that come from? Oh well, have a nice day.


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## The Kai (Nov 22, 2004)

Ditto That

You have generated some posts and some heat, allthough I don't agree with everything I see your points and recognize your passion
Todd


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## Marginal (Nov 23, 2004)

5 hand swords said:
			
		

> If you know who Robert (Bob) Perry was in History of American Kenpo a little help here?



Well, not really since I don't study Kenpo. (Why I'm in the TKD forum, and not the Kenpo one.) But that wasn't what I was trying to get at. The point was, you appreciate your instructor. I didn't care about the rank so muuch as the fact you mentioned a name, which implied a lineage etc.



> I am legit and only claiming my orange belt so thats what it means in this light,
> I took hard *** Training and some good skills etc to make it and am proud of my rank and lineage.
> It has served me well in the real world.



The part I don't get is why you can be proud of your lineage, but others are "slaves" if they are proud of or satisfied with their own. The thread's shot through with that message from all sides. Might as well be a religious discussion in that case. Nobody's going to get anywhere trying to establish who is righter than the other.


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## MJS (Nov 23, 2004)

Well, I almost didn't write this post...maybe I shouldn't have, due to the fact that I do not study TKD, but I decided to anyways...I'm trying to keep an open mind here, and learn a little more about this art.  I've had some chats with Marginal, both on the forum and in PM, and he has taken the time to explain things and answer my questions.  That being said, I thank him for that! :asian: 

As for my post, and this thread.  IMO, going back to the very first post, it appears, at least to me anyways, that it was a simple inqury by Jerry and his org.  Now, like Kenpo, there are many different orgs., and its apparent the same is said for TKD.  Is one org. going to always agree with the other? Of course not, but the fact is, is that the art of TKD is still being spread.  

The "My style is better than your style" debate seems like it'll never end.  There will always be a split in the TMA/MMA/RBSD, etc. groups.  and chances are, they will never see eye to eye.  I've talked to alot of people about this recently, as similar debates pop up all the time on a few other forums.  One phrase that has been coined is cross referrencing.  Now, this is not to be confused with cross training.  And yes, there is a difference here.  

Now, as for the training methods...will something that was created years ago still be effective today?  Possibly.  Will slight mods. have to be made? Again, possibly.  After watching a few threads on MT about kata, it is very true that one has to have an understanding of something to truly make it work.  IMO, it all comes down to how its trained.  One thing that I'm not going to do here, is start preaching another "realism and aliveness" song, as its certainly been  :deadhorse !!

Lets get back to some good discussion people.  As I said in a past post.  1- This thread got waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic.  2- If you don't like the way one group is doing something, thats fine.  If you're not a part of that group, then theres nothing to worry about! :supcool: 

Mike


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## Disco (Nov 23, 2004)

I've sat and watched and even made a small post way back towards the beginning on cross training. I said up front that the reason this thread was started was for promotional purposes. Why would someone, who has never been on this site prior, openly asked for feedback on his organization? Was there any discussions of any kind ongoing relating to the AIKIA? Why would there be a need to find out why people have left or were not interested in the first place, if it was not self promoting. It was a cleaver way to draw attention. 

Lets make one thing very clear here. I don't think anybody is or has a dispute with anyone's technical prowess, it's more along the lines of business acumen. Use this as an example; 
 You receive the AIKIA black belt membership certificate ($30 value), instructor certificate ($60 value), school charter/agent certificate ($90 value), and five free complete student memberships ($100 resale value) to get you started. And you may test for advanced dan rank ($100-$400 value). Many agents complete dan rank exams within the first six months of membership. 
 At a retail value of more than $599, you pay the wholesale rate of just $199. And since you receive a $100 resale value in student memberships, your initial investment in the worlds leading independent teachers organization is just $99! The yearly renewal fee remains at $99. This is an incredible opportunity, so join today! 
I'm sorry, but to me this smacks of an amway distributorship. Your not a member, your an "agent". You have to / should sell something to get back some of what you paid. You also keep paying every year. It's apparent that I have drawn my own conclusions, feel "FREE" to draw your own.


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## MichiganTKD (Nov 23, 2004)

This is what I have to say so that are no misconceptions.

I don't have a problem with BJJ, wrestling, kickboxing etc. I have a problem with someone who tries to combine them all into one neat little system. It can't be done. The mechanics, mentality, philosophy, and state of mind in each are different.

I don't believe that traditional martial arts like traditional TKD, karate, kung fu etc. need to be supplemented. After achieving a certain rank (Dan level), if you want to experience a different art to seek a new challenge, that's fine. I started aikido after achieving 4th Dan in Tae Kwon Do because aikido interests me, NOT because I felt Tae Kwon Do was missing something. If you practice under a competent Instructor, it should be pretty complete.

Don't come on Martial Talk to promote your organization or a new system. I don't care how many Halls of Fame you are in or how many celebrities you know. To me, Martial Talk is about participants discussing various ideas, not promoting themselves or their agendas.


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## Adept (Nov 23, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> I don't have a problem with BJJ, wrestling, kickboxing etc. I have a problem with someone who tries to combine them all into one neat little system. It can't be done.


  Sure it can. People do it across the globe every day, very succesfully.



> The mechanics


  The different mechanics are one of the main advantages.



> mentality


  It is the student who has a mentality, not the art. The art or style is simply a series of movements.



> philosophy, and state of mind in each are different.


  Again, the philosophy and state of mind are unique to the practitioners, not the movements.



> I don't believe that traditional martial arts like traditional TKD, karate, kung fu etc. need to be supplemented.


  That depends on your goal.


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## Aikia (Nov 23, 2004)

Aikia said:
			
		

> Miles,
> The testing took place in about 1983. That was a lot of money for a college TKD club. On another occassion a member told me his Korean "Master" intended to charge him $6000 for certification to 6th dan.  It is better to raise monthly fees than to have the high promotion fees. Students and parents do not appreciate the often high fees. Some instructors will try to pull the wool over students eyes and argue about why they deserve the fees. And there is still the common practice of having a board to promote when only the actual instructor makes the decision. This practice is may often  be an excuse for the instructors to get together at the students expense. This is true but some will argue so as to convince themselves that it is O.K. to gouge the student at test time.
> Removed potential advertisement by author.


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## Aikia (Nov 23, 2004)

I had intended to go back and edit out any potential advertisemet but was unable to do so. I regret that this thread turned into a debate about adding skills to the art of TKD, rank identification etc. I can see that the issue is emotionlaly charged. My intent was to simply to identify organization problem areas not to recruit or advertise. It was difficult to keep comments on the subject. I often got off topic in order to answer questions. I regret that anyone was offended. This was my first visit to the TKD section. I should have done more observation first before opening a thread. The concept of the forum is interesting in that you actually have little or no details regarding the person providing comments. I noticed that some volunteered that they were not in TKD. Everyone has an equal voice, though some apparently have made friends who back up the posts. I'll return, but primarily as a reader. I certainly hope that this will be the end of this thread.


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## bignick (Nov 23, 2004)

Aikia said:
			
		

> The concept of the forum is interesting in that you actually have little or no details regarding the person providing comments. I noticed that some volunteered that they were not in TKD. Everyone has an equal voice, though some apparently have made friends who back up the posts. I'll return, but primarily as a reader. I certainly hope that this will be the end of this thread.


That's what you get on the internet.  Privacy and anonymity.  For all everyone knows, I could really be 70 year old 8th dan and I just wanted to come here and see if anybody was talking about me.  For all we know you, AIKIA, could be a white belt with 2 weeks experience.  You have to take what you get on the internet with a grain of salt.  Either way, attacking peoples credentials, one way or the other, by anyone...is not the best way to get some good discussion going.


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## MichiganTKD (Nov 24, 2004)

Jerry,

Bignick is correct. This what you get in the Internet. People may or may not be who they say they are. I am, because I believe in being a person of integrity. You don't need to know everything about me, but everything I stated about myself is truthful. Not everyone probably is. That's the way it goes.
Another thing. Perhaps in your world, where exposure counts, and success is measured in how many magazine covers you get on and who you know, nobody ever criticizes anybody else for fear of not being part of the "in" crowd. But in the real world and in these forums, you better be prepared to deal with criticisms about your background, credentials, methods, and whatever else. I am. I will always answer questions and defend criticisms, even from people I disagree with.


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## Marginal (Nov 24, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> I've sat and watched and even made a small post way back towards the beginning on cross training. I said up front that the reason this thread was started was for promotional purposes. Why would someone, who has never been on this site prior, openly asked for feedback on his organization? Was there any discussions of any kind ongoing relating to the AIKIA? Why would there be a need to find out why people have left or were not interested in the first place, if it was not self promoting.



To be fair, I do remember another member of his org posting here shortly before feedback was asked for. (Can't remember his MT ID offhand, but he posted his "cirriculim vitae" in the years/rank thread Tigerwoman started.) I wouldn't be surprised if he really was asked to visit the forum by that student.


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## Aikia (Nov 24, 2004)

Since this seems to be the thread that never ends let me state that my credentials are of the highest order and open for all to see. There are reportedly over 7 million martial arts practitioners. Only a handfull will be inducted in to the Black Belt Magazine Hall of Fame. Yes there are many HOF's but only one original BB Magazine. And yes you can downplay it. 
 When I first posted on Martialtalk I received several PMs, One asking if it was actually me. Others asking why I would submit to a forum. I can see that there are turf battels going on. And perhaps for that reason there are few high dans posting. I am use to criticism. Remember I have been a college professor for many years. College students always question authority.
 The first lesson in martial arts is courtesy. While my motive was to share knowledge I quickly have discovered that I have entered without approval your clearly staked territory. I will be courteous and leave. Please show me the same courtesy and let this thread end.


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## MichiganTKD (Nov 24, 2004)

Jerry,

Threads end either when nobody is interested in them any longer or when the EM's (evil mods ) end them. They tend not to end because the person who started them wants them to end. Remember, this is not a classroom you are in charge of. Threads continue with or without the participation of the original starter.


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## Aikia (Nov 24, 2004)

Michigan,
You have been disrectful to me several times on this thread. As it turns out you are quite the paper tiger all growl, no bite. You are of course refering to my PM to invite you at my expense to Karate College to show your stuff. I would not be supprised if you are an imposter, pretending to be a dan holder. You complain a lot but what have you contributed? You lack honor.

GEORGE BUSH IS MY PRESIDENT.Get over it.

I invite those who have contacted me to join in.


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## The Kai (Nov 24, 2004)

Dr. Beasley

Unfortunatly, sometimes a threads starts and takes on a life all its own.  With the energy (controversy) it would be hard just to stop on a dime.  Ironically, you wanted feedback?  well, here it is!


*You are of course refering to my PM to invite you at my expense to Karate College to show your stuff.*
I was scanning the past threads and I can not find where this was being referred to.  IMHO, I don't think MichTKD has been disrespectful, maybe not exactly compliant.
remember, you can lead a horse to water.......
Todd


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 24, 2004)

Thread Locked Pending Administration Team Review
*
Rich Parsons
Martial Talk
Super Moderator*


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