# Did Bruce get it right?



## DanT (Apr 21, 2018)

There's been a lot of talk on the Wing Chun side of this forum about ways of fixing Wing Chun. It led me to the question of "Did Bruce get it right?" A while back, I posted some suggestions as a practitioner of Wing Chun and JKD myself, critiquing Wing Chun and finding ways to improve the system. This was met with almost no dissent, and I think I got about 10 likes when I posted the following observations:

- Lack of mobile footwork
- Lack of head movement
- Lack of body strength
- Lack of overall body conditioning
- Lack of takedown defence
- Lack of ground fighting ability
- Lack of punching power
- Lack of diversity of attacks
- Lack of positional skills
- Lack of fluidity

So the question is, "Did Bruce get it right?" Did his JKD address these issues? Is JKD the "combat adjusted" version of Wing Chun that we've been talking about? Did Bruce see the same thing I see when I look at 95% of Wing Chun? As a practitioner of both JKD and Wing Chun, I personally feel that JKD essentially is a more effective version of Wing Chun. The Wing Chun that I've been taught has been adjusted to the point where it is almost identical to the JKD that I learned. What do you guys think?


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## Martial D (Apr 21, 2018)

DanT said:


> There's been a lot of talk on the Wing Chun side of this forum about ways of fixing Wing Chun. It led me to the question of "Did Bruce get it right?" A while back, I posted some suggestions as a practitioner of Wing Chun and JKD myself, critiquing Wing Chun and finding ways to improve the system. This was met with almost no dissent, and I think I got about 10 likes when I posted the following observations:
> 
> - Lack of mobile footwork
> - Lack of head movement
> ...


I would say yes and no.

Yes because what Bruce actually talked about was just that,adapting to your own body style, conditioning, testing everything rigorously and discarding what doesn't work, etc.

No because JKD became a sort of Bruce Lee impersonators club after he died, and has become many of the things Bruce spoke out against, with the idea seeming to be move like Bruce did.

Which is fine if you happen to be 130 pounds and 5 foot six.


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## drop bear (Apr 21, 2018)

He didn't compete. And should have.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 21, 2018)

DanT said:


> - Lack of takedown defence


Bruce Lee did not complete this task.


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## TMA17 (Apr 21, 2018)

From what I read about him I’d say he did get it right.


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## KPM (Apr 21, 2018)

DanT said:


> So the question is, "Did Bruce get it right?" Did his JKD address these issues? Is JKD the "combat adjusted" version of Wing Chun that we've been talking about? Did Bruce see the same thing I see when I look at 95% of Wing Chun? As a practitioner of both JKD and Wing Chun, I personally feel that JKD essentially is a more effective version of Wing Chun. The Wing Chun that I've been taught has been adjusted to the point where it is almost identical to the JKD that I learned. What do you guys think?



Depends on which version of JKD you are referring to!   The version he was doing close to his death was a very "stripped down" to the essentials version with very little Wing Chun left in it.  It was essentially a very direct kickboxing method.  At least according to Ted Wong!   Bruce Lee was so physically gifted that he could generate power in short movements and was very fast.  Others not so gifted may need more "classic" boxing mechanics.....more "classic" boxing combos to set things up, etc.  JKD started out as Bruce Lee's expression of the Wing Chun he had learned.  Then he blended in more and more kickboxing and it became his own version of "Wing Chun Boxing/Kickboxing."   And then the Wing Chun element became less and less emphasized until it really was his own version of fast and efficient kickboxing.  

So when I do my "Wing Chun Boxing", someone watching might very well think I was doing JKD.   Some guys emphasize the Wing Chun element of their JKD more than others.   But I do think Bruce Lee "got it right."   Does that mean we should all be switching to JKD?   Does that mean that those of us doing a version of "Wing Chun Boxing" are just doing a version of JKD?   Those are good question!


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## DanT (Apr 21, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Bruce Lee did not complete this task.


Do you want to expand on that? I heard he had some Judo training with Gene LeBelle, I wonder how extensive it was.


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## obi_juan_salami (Apr 22, 2018)

The wing chun style i practice and learned/learn from my teachers has all the the things mentioned above in the OP aside from ground fighting. Granted these attributes can be difficult to obtain and take a level of dedication and hard work. But its all there.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 22, 2018)

DanT said:


> Do you want to expand on that? I heard he had some Judo training with Gene LeBelle, I wonder how extensive it was.


Until the day that Bruce Lee passed away, I have not heard him ever mentioned about any valid "take down defense" strategy.

What should "take down defense" strategy include? You can write a book about it.


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## Martial D (Apr 22, 2018)

obi_juan_salami said:


> The wing chun style i practice and learned/learn from my teachers has all the the things mentioned above in the OP aside from ground fighting. Granted these attributes can be difficult to obtain and take a level of dedication and hard work. But its all there.


Which lineage/style is that?


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## obi_juan_salami (Apr 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Which lineage/style is that?



Guangzhou wing chun


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 22, 2018)

obi_juan_salami said:


> Guangzhou wing chun


Do you have any clip for that? Thanks in advance.


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## Headhunter (Apr 22, 2018)

drop bear said:


> He didn't compete. And should have.


Why? His style wasn't about competing in point matches or kickboxing matches it was about self defence. That's why he started martial arts in the first place to defend himself. He trained so hard in the states because he saw Americans were so much bigger than him so he knew in a street fight he'd fight guys bigger than him not just his weight class. Everything he did was for self defence so why limit himself to rules.


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## Headhunter (Apr 22, 2018)

JKD was never meant to be a commercial style it was meant to be Bruce lees personal style that he used for himself. That's why he taught not to get people good at martial arts but so he could have training partners and learn how to deal with them. That's why he worked with champions so he could spar with them and learn from them. JKD should be different to every practitioner so if your JKD doesn't have those things that's on you


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## Anarax (Apr 22, 2018)

DanT said:


> There's been a lot of talk on the Wing Chun side of this forum about ways of fixing Wing Chun. It led me to the question of "Did Bruce get it right?" A while back, I posted some suggestions as a practitioner of Wing Chun and JKD myself, critiquing Wing Chun and finding ways to improve the system. This was met with almost no dissent, and I think I got about 10 likes when I posted the following observations:
> 
> - Lack of mobile footwork
> - Lack of head movement
> ...



I think Bruce did what a lot of Martial Artist today simply won't do, acknowledge the limitations of the style they train. I heard Bruce didn't complete his Wing Chun training, more so he didn't learn all the Dummy sets. Do you have any information on this? Regardless, Bruce made a system that worked for him and he studied martial arts with dedication and commitment. I find very little to no fault in his method or result.


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## Headhunter (Apr 22, 2018)

Anarax said:


> I think Bruce did what a lot of Martial Artist today simply won't do, acknowledge the limitations of the style they train. I heard Bruce didn't complete his Wing Chun training, more so he didn't learn all the Dummy sets. Do you have any information on this? Regardless, Bruce made a system that worked for him and he studied martial arts with dedication and commitment. I find very little to no fault in his method or result.


I don't think anyone has a problem with lee not learning all wing Chun and making his own style. Peoples problem is he didn't know the full system but was still teaching wing Chun and calling himself a sifu that's what the issue was


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## Anarax (Apr 22, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> I don't think anyone has a problem with lee not learning all wing Chun and making his own style. Peoples problem is he didn't know the full system but was still teaching wing Chun and calling himself a sifu that's what the issue was



Well he taught Jun Fan Gung Fu, his own style heavily influenced by Wing Chun. That's different than calling himself a Wing Chun Sifu


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## Headhunter (Apr 22, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Well he taught Jun Fan Gung Fu, his own style heavily influenced by Wing Chun. That's different than calling himself a Wing Chun Sifu


It wasn't heavily influenced...it WAS wing Chun he just put his own name on it. Taky kimura and James demile have both said in interviews it was wing Chun they were learning and they were some of his first students and back then lee didn't know any other styles so it was all wing Chun and only later did he start adding boxing and other stuff


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## TMA17 (Apr 22, 2018)

What I took away from him was he acknowledged the limitations of any system and was in favor of blending.  That’s a big plus.


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## drop bear (Apr 22, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Why? His style wasn't about competing in point matches or kickboxing matches it was about self defence. That's why he started martial arts in the first place to defend himself. He trained so hard in the states because he saw Americans were so much bigger than him so he knew in a street fight he'd fight guys bigger than him not just his weight class. Everything he did was for self defence so why limit himself to rules.



But he didn't really do much self defence. So it was training wasted.


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## Anarax (Apr 22, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> It wasn't heavily influenced...it WAS wing Chun he just put his own name on it. Taky kimura and James demile have both said in interviews it was wing Chun they were learning and they were some of his first students and back then lee didn't know any other styles so it was all wing Chun and only later did he start adding boxing and other stuff



He said he taught Jun Fan Gung Fu, he school was called the Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute. He wanted to further his Martial Arts training and gradually incorporate other techniques into it which would later become Jeet Kune Do. I don't understand people's problem with this method. I much prefer this approach opposed to schools marketing themselves as one style when there are hardly any elements of said style in their curriculum. 

In FMA, instructors will change there system's name even if there's a shift on emphasis. Meaning, there's not even much of a change in techniques, just focus. 

Lee on the other hand heavily modified Wing Chun and incorporated many other styles into his own.


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## Anarax (Apr 22, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> JKD was never meant to be a commercial style it was meant to be Bruce lees personal style that he used for himself. That's why he taught not to get people good at martial arts but so he could have training partners and learn how to deal with them. That's why he worked with champions so he could spar with them and learn from them. JKD should be different to every practitioner so if your JKD doesn't have those things that's on you



Though JKD is a actual style nowadays and is legit, I think Bruce approached JKD as more of a concept. Meaning, he incorporated what worked for him. Bruce was interested in teaching and wanted to try and revolutionize Martial Arts. Yes, he did train with champions and the best of their respective arts, but this was to gain knowledge and further himself. That doesn't mean he wasn't interested in having students.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 22, 2018)

If you teach strategies/principles and if you don't care which MA style that technique may come from as long as it fits the strategy/principle, the name of the style will have no meaning.

For example, if you teach strategies/principles such as

- Kick low, punch high.
- Attack left then attack right.
- A punch is a punch followed by a pull.
- Jam your opponent's space and don't give him enough space to generate power and speed.
- Guide your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm.
- Use straight line to deal with circle. Use circle to deal with straight line.
- Attack both legs if you can, otherwise sttack one leg then attack the other leg.
- Attack in one direction, you then attack the opposite direction.
- Lead your opponent into the emptiness.
- Try to be as heavy as a mountain. Also try to be as light as a feather.
- Encourage your opponent to move in but don't allow him to move out.
- ...

IMO, it's much easier to train MA by using principle/strategy instead of using "style".


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## Bino TWT (May 27, 2018)

Wing Tsun doesn't need to be fixed. Practitioners need to be fixed, training methods need to be fixed, applications need to be fixed, lack of sparring and pressure testing needs to be fixed, training incest needs to be fixed. But none of these issues or specifically those issues DanT mentioned in the OP are faults of the system, they are faults of the practitioners. 

This is a list of personal problems that must be addressed, because the system is not designed or taught that way (*SHOULDN'T* be taught that way, at least!). These mistakes fall under the "User Error" category. They could also be the result of poor instruction. 

- Lack of mobile footwork - Practice!
- Lack of head movement - Beginner mistakes
- Lack of body strength - Work out!
- Lack of overall body conditioning - Work out! 
- Lack of takedown defence - Failure to teach/practice; it's in the system
- Lack of ground fighting ability - ground defense and anti-grappling have always been in the system but are often neglected. However, the ground is not where you want to be in a real fight/self defense/combat scenario. P.S.: Chi Sao works on the ground, too. 
- Lack of punching power - Poor technique, bad instruction, train harder
- Lack of diversity of attacks - Beginner mentality; Failure to understand the system
- Lack of positional skills - Poor training
- Lack of fluidity - Poor training


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## TMA17 (May 27, 2018)

Those are all good points.  One thing that I've noticed is that when pressure tested, WC fails as is taught in the traditional sense.  So from there people start to modify it which it then becomes an issue of style/mechanics and whether it's still WC.  WC can't be everything.  Also, when you do modify it, you're changing some of the structure of it, which many schools emphasize as the key attribute of WC.  It's a slippery slope.


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## DanT (May 27, 2018)

Bino TWT said:


> Wing Tsun doesn't need to be fixed. Practitioners need to be fixed, training methods need to be fixed, applications need to be fixed, lack of sparring and pressure testing needs to be fixed, training incest needs to be fixed. But none of these issues or specifically those issues DanT mentioned in the OP are faults of the system, they are faults of the practitioners.
> 
> This is a list of personal problems that must be addressed, because the system is not designed or taught that way (*SHOULDN'T* be taught that way, at least!). These mistakes fall under the "User Error" category. They could also be the result of poor instruction.
> 
> ...


By their fruits you will know them. The above that I posted is a representation of 95% of Wing Chun. It's an issue engrained in the way the system is largely practiced. Perhaps you or I have a way of training that does not contain those issues, however that is not true for a majority of the Wing Chun population.


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## TMA17 (May 28, 2018)

I love WC despite not being an expert in it.  I really appreciate all the classical arts.  I'm sure at one place and one time they had their place.  We have a good Tang Soo Do school within blocks of where I live that I'm often tempted to go to just because I can appreciate the art as it is.  BUT, what i learned very quickly was don't try to make the art something it is not....if you wan to learn how to fight, join and MMA place/Krav Maga school or take up an art where you actually FIGHT.  Forget what style it is.  You learn to fight by fighting.  You learn real quick what works and what doesn't.  WC folks make far too many excuses for what it really is....hence the constant debate on the topic all over the internet.  When pressure tested AS IS, WC fails in real world fighting.  Period.  WC IMO is best served by those that are taking the art and blending it.  They see where it works and where it doesn't and will keep it functional.


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## macher (May 29, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I love WC despite not being an expert in it.  I really appreciate all the classical arts.  I'm sure at one place and one time they had their place.  We have a good Tang Soo Do school within blocks of where I live that I'm often tempted to go to just because I can appreciate the art as it is.  BUT, what i learned very quickly was don't try to make the art something it is not....if you wan to learn how to fight, join and MMA place/Krav Maga school or take up an art where you actually FIGHT.  Forget what style it is.  You learn to fight by fighting.  You learn real quick what works and what doesn't.  WC folks make far too many excuses for what it really is....hence the constant debate on the topic all over the internet.  When pressure tested AS IS, WC fails in real world fighting.  Period.  WC IMO is best served by those that are taking the art and blending it.  They see where it works and where it doesn't and will keep it functional.



I agree. I was having a discussion about Taiji being taught as a combat martial art to learn how to defend quickly. To me the responses were a lot of excuses like giving the student a ‘false impression’ they can utilize something and / or application of the form to make it functional.

I’m not a WC expert but WC like any other CMA can be functional if taught to be functional instead of the practicing of the art. It might need to be modified in some ways like stances etc.


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## Bino TWT (May 29, 2018)

Well I (we) have a different approach to training. Our lineage (WT) has always been about application. I boxed and was a champion wrestler before WT, so it's natural to train in a sport combative fashion. And please don't misunderstand what I'm saying; changing the way you train isn't changing the system. If you sit around doing forms slowly listening to Tai Chi meditation music with incense burning and never spar, then that's a problem as far as skill and application goes. If you constantly pressure test it like we do, then it is functional "as is". I teach and train with UFC fighters. There's no need to blend WT with anything to make it work, you just need to train like a fighter. Like I said, the problem isn't with the art, it's with the practitioners.


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## macher (May 29, 2018)

Bino TWT said:


> Well I (we) have a different approach to training. Our lineage (WT) has always been about application. I boxed and was a champion wrestler before WT, so it's natural to train in a sport combative fashion. And please don't misunderstand what I'm saying; changing the way you train isn't changing the system. If you sit around doing forms slowly listening to Tai Chi meditation music with incense burning and never spar, then that's a problem as far as skill and application goes. If you constantly pressure test it like we do, then it is functional "as is". I teach and train with UFC fighters. There's no need to blend WT with anything to make it work, you just need to train like a fighter. Like I said, the problem isn't with the art, it's with the practitioners.



I agree. Shouldn’t finding the right teacher be important too to train like a fighter?


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## macher (May 29, 2018)

Bino TWT said:


> Well I (we) have a different approach to training. Our lineage (WT) has always been about application. I boxed and was a champion wrestler before WT, so it's natural to train in a sport combative fashion. And please don't misunderstand what I'm saying; changing the way you train isn't changing the system. If you sit around doing forms slowly listening to Tai Chi meditation music with incense burning and never spar, then that's a problem as far as skill and application goes. If you constantly pressure test it like we do, then it is functional "as is". I teach and train with UFC fighters. There's no need to blend WT with anything to make it work, you just need to train like a fighter. Like I said, the problem isn't with the art, it's with the practitioners.



Since you teach and train are you recommending for WC’ers to train with MMA fighters or similar?


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## Bino TWT (May 29, 2018)

macher said:


> Since you teach and train are you recommending for WC’ers to train with MMA fighters or similar?



I'm recommending for Chunners to cross train with everyone they can to learn to better apply their skills. If you want to learn to use your Wing Tsun to deal with kicks, go find some TKD or Muay Thai guys to cross train with. Want to learn how to deal with a boxer, go find a boxer. Walk into the BJJ school and roll with some of those guys using Chi Sao on the ground. Find you some MMA guys to cross train with, as they are generally well rounded, and usually love to find new training/sparring partners. You don't have to learn a new art to blend, but learn how to apply your art against a variety of different attacks. Be prepared to deal with anything. Spar often. Pressure test everything. That's how you will learn to be a good fighter with your Wing Tsun.


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## Bino TWT (May 29, 2018)

macher said:


> I agree. Shouldn’t finding the right teacher be important too to train like a fighter?


Very correct. Proper instruction is key, as with any art.


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## Bino TWT (May 29, 2018)

*Q: My friend said that a Wing Tsun fighter can't beat a boxer/MMA fighter/Blackbelt, is that true? Or can Wing Tsun beat (insert style here)?*

A: I will address both of these questions together, because the answer is basically the same. As far as the age old "style versus style" debate, it's not the style, but the practitioner that wins or loses. Yes, I feel that Wing Tsun gives you an advantage over many other styles... obviously I feel that way, because this is what I do, but the fact remains that it all boils down to the person in the fight. I've seen black belts get there *** kicked in bar fights by drunk untrained brawlers. That doesn't mean that their style sucks, it means that they weren't very good at applying it.

The same thing with a Wing Tsun (or any other style) practitioner beating a boxer or MMA fighter. Those guys are professional athletes. Fighting is life. They are in top physical conditioning, they train twice a day, every day, for hours at a time. They clock more sparring hours in a month than most people do in ten years. They have more fights in a year than most people have in a lifetime. If you sit behind a desk all day, eat junk food, and go to your martial arts class 2 or 3 times a week for 2 hours, rarely spar and never fight, you probably shouldn't pick a fight with a professional fighter because your chances of winning are terribly slim. *HOWEVER*, if you train hard like an athlete, constantly spar and pressure test, go to every class, practice even when you're not in class, well then you kind of even out the playing field. It's not that (insert style here) can't beat a boxer or MMA fighter, it's that the average person isn't up to the task. The fault is not with the art. Boxers and UFC/MMA fighters are professional athletes and professional fighters, *most* people who casually train martial arts are not. If you aspire to get on that level, then we will help you get there. 



*Q: I heard Wing Tsun doesn't have any ground fighting/grappling. What if I fight someone who trains Brazilian Ju Jitsu? Should I study a grappling art too, or a more "complete" style like MMA?*

A: First off, Wing Tsun _DOES_ have ground defense and anti-grappling. Our WT lineage in particular is one of the few lineages that thoroughly explores and embraces grappling and ground fighting solutions. You will often hear us speak of "Forward Intent" when talking about technique application. Forward is just that, forward. It doesn't matter if you're standing up, laying on your back, or hanging upside down. Wing Tsun covers all 4 ranges of combat (kicking, punching, trapping, and grappling). We begin ground defense and anti-grappling right from the beginning. Being an experienced grappler and cross training with high level BJJ practitioners, I assure you that your techniques will work on the ground if you train for it. Since Wing Tsun is more geared towards real world self defense and street combat, ground grappling is not encouraged because in a street fight, that's where  you die. If you're attacked in the street and you're rolling around on the ground trying to sink an armbar, you are wide open for the guys friends to stomp you into oblivion or pull a weapon, and there's not much you can do about it from down there, so the idea is to recover your footing and strategic position as quickly as possible. Also, takedowns on concrete or other hard surfaces pose their own set of problems and risks. When there is no ref, no rules, no mats, and the possibility of multiple and/or armed attackers, you never want to risk fighting on the ground if at all possible. Being a concept and principle based art, *the only limitations on Wing Tsun are the practitioners ability to understand and correctly apply it*. Some schools don't train this range because they simply do not have the skill or understanding to do so. We train for modern, real world scenarios, and ground fighting and takedowns are highly probable threats in a real attack. If you wish to train for MMA or sport combat, we can most definitely show you how to apply your Wing Tsun effectively on the ground. If you plan on joining the UFC, then you might want to explore other options as well since you are training for a specific platform, but in the real world you do not need any other style to make your Wing Tsun complete.


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## Bino TWT (May 29, 2018)

Anarax said:


> He said he taught Jun Fan Gung Fu, he school was called the Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute.



His name in Cantonese was Lee Jun Fan. Jun Fan Gung Fu is like putting a sign that said "Bruce Lee's Kung Fu". The vast majority of what he taught though, was Wing Tsun, up to the point he learned in the system. That was on his sign too lol


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 29, 2018)

Bino TWT said:


> I'm recommending for Chunners to cross train with everyone they can to learn to better apply their skills. If you want to learn to use your Wing Tsun to deal with kicks, go find some TKD or Muay Thai guys to cross train with. Want to learn how to deal with a boxer, go find a boxer. Walk into the BJJ school and roll with some of those guys using Chi Sao on the ground. Find you some MMA guys to cross train with, as they are generally well rounded, and usually love to find new training/sparring partners. You don't have to learn a new art to blend, but learn how to apply your art against a variety of different attacks. Be prepared to deal with anything. Spar often. Pressure test everything. That's how you will learn to be a good fighter with your Wing Tsun.


Any chance you have a sparring video of you rolling with BJJ guys? I've never heard of Chi Sao being effectively used on the ground, and have seen so many crappy 'anti grappling' things, it would be refreshing to see someone using a style like wing chun effectively in grappling.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 30, 2018)

Bino TWT said:


> His name in Cantonese was Lee Jun Fan. Jun Fan Gung Fu is like putting a sign that said "Bruce Lee's Kung Fu". The vast majority of what he taught though, was Wing Tsun, up to the point he learned in the system. That was on his sign too lol


I'd even go a step further. That sign basically says, "Bruce's Kung Fu School: Instruction in Wing Chun for Self-Defense".


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## Bino TWT (May 30, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'd even go a step further. That sign basically says, "Bruce's Kung Fu School: Instruction in Wing Chun for Self-Defense".



You are correct. Like "Harvard School of Law".



kempodisciple said:


> Any chance you have a sparring video of you rolling with BJJ guys? I've never heard of Chi Sao being effectively used on the ground, and have seen so many crappy 'anti grappling' things, it would be refreshing to see someone using a style like wing chun effectively in grappling.



Yes. Remember, forward intent just means forward. Doesn't matter if you're standing up, on your back, or hanging upside down, the concept remains the same.


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## geezer (May 30, 2018)

Bino TWT said:


> ...Yes. Remember, forward intent just means forward. Doesn't matter if you're standing up, on your back, or hanging upside down, the concept remains the same.



Bino, I love that clip. It's a great example of the right way to train with people from other arts and learning from each other. Also, you looked good on the floor, at least from my Wing Tsun perspective!

BTW, I may be coming to Texas in July. PM me on how to contact you. Maybe we can get together to train, or at least for a beer. --Steve


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## Gerry Seymour (May 30, 2018)

Bino TWT said:


> You are correct. Like "Harvard School of Law".
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Remember, forward intent just means forward. Doesn't matter if you're standing up, on your back, or hanging upside down, the concept remains the same.


I'm about as far from a Wing Chun expert as a body can get, but that actually looked like something I'd recognize as Wing Chun. Nice control.


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## Bino TWT (May 30, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm about as far from a Wing Chun expert as a body can get, but that actually looked like something I'd recognize as Wing Chun. Nice control.



Thanks. Yeah when applied correctly, it can work anywhere, and still be recognizable as Wing Tsun. It's all in how the practitioner trains. That's why I always advocate cross training with other arts. 



geezer said:


> Bino, I love that clip. It's a great example of the right way to train with people from other arts and learning from each other. Also, you looked good on the floor, at least from my Wing Tsun perspective!
> 
> BTW, I may be coming to Texas in July. PM me on how to contact you. Maybe we can get together to train, or at least for a beer. --Steve



Sure Geezer, looking forward to it! Beer & training, can't beat that...


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## drop bear (May 30, 2018)

Bino TWT said:


> You are correct. Like "Harvard School of Law".
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Remember, forward intent just means forward. Doesn't matter if you're standing up, on your back, or hanging upside down, the concept remains the same.



Did you tap out to knee on belly?


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## Bino TWT (May 30, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Did you tap out to knee on belly?



The knee in the belly was just icing on the cake for the choke he had me in, but yeah lol. I was just completely out of gas at that point.


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## PiedmontChun (Jun 6, 2018)

Bino TWT said:


> The knee in the belly was just icing on the cake for the choke he had me in, but yeah lol. I was just completely out of gas at that point.


Kudos to you for rolling with BJJ guy and applying WT principles. I will point out that for most of that clip / interaction, you were in the guy's open guard and fighting off his grips. Its mostly a defensive position for him that there is some simultaneous potential for him to be launching attacks. Had you been on the defending end of a takedown or in very inferior positions like bottom side control or bottom of mount, do you train against that in terms of escape or gaining better position? That would be a realistic scenario, defending against an aggressive person who resorts to grappling to control you while attacking.

As for myself, I was taught some mount defense tactics in WT from a fairly high ranking visiting instructor but looking back on it.....even sport BJJ at a beginner level deals more realistically with that position than what I saw and learned in WT. I'm glad the interest and intent was there..... but I'm still skeptical of trying to add grappling into WC/WT and it not be a mess.


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## geezer (Jun 6, 2018)

PiedmontChun said:


> ...As for myself, I was taught some mount defense tactics in WT from a fairly high ranking visiting instructor but looking back on it.....even sport BJJ at a beginner level deals more realistically with that position than what I saw and learned in WT. I'm glad the interest and intent was there..... but I'm still skeptical of trying to add grappling into WC/WT and it not be a mess.



I had the same feeling about the WT "anti-grappling" material I saw. However, necessity is the mother of invention, and the need to have effective ground-fighting skills has apparently let the EWTO branch of WT to upgrade by bringing in legit grapplers, such as Karen Garabedyan, rather than to continue reinventing the wheel themselves:

Grappling seminar with Master Karen Darabedyan | WingTsun-World - The Magazine of the EWTO

BTW, I may be attending a ground-fighting seminar in July in Austin at a Wing Chun school that comes from the WT lineage. I don't know what I'll see. Personally, if my arthritic, 63 year old joints would permit it, I'd probably rather just take up BJJ for grappling skills.


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## Bino TWT (Jun 13, 2018)

geezer said:


> I had the same feeling about the WT "anti-grappling" material I saw. However, necessity is the mother of invention, and the need to have effective ground-fighting skills has apparently let the EWTO branch of WT to upgrade by bringing in legit grapplers, such as Karen Garabedyan, rather than to continue reinventing the wheel themselves:
> 
> Grappling seminar with Master Karen Darabedyan | WingTsun-World - The Magazine of the EWTO
> 
> BTW, I may be attending a ground-fighting seminar in July in Austin at a Wing Chun school that comes from the WT lineage. I don't know what I'll see. Personally, if my arthritic, 63 year old joints would permit it, I'd probably rather just take up BJJ for grappling skills.



Geezer, after a few beers, your joints will loosen up, trust me lol. I'll have some ready for you when you get to Texas.


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