# Chamber



## Wey (May 26, 2010)

How many of you fight with your fist in the classic chamber position as taught by karate? If you do, how effective has it been for you? If you do not keep your hands chambered when fighting, why do you not? Or is chambering the fists just a stepping stone for another way to position the hands / does it teach something like to pull the hands back, possibly?


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## seasoned (May 26, 2010)

If you teach someone to grab an opponents wrist off of a block and pull them into you, you will get all manor of pulling. But, if you teach chambering after every punch, pulling your fist back to your center with a twist every time, it will, over time become very natural. Now teach the grabbing and pulling, and it will be done right, every time. This chambering motion can be used in many grappling applications. With this practice you have learned a principle important to martial arts.


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## Wey (May 26, 2010)

Thank you for your words of wisdom, seasoned!


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## dancingalone (May 27, 2010)

Seasoned's post is absolutely dead on.  I would only add the comment that pulling your punching/blocking fist back to your side or hip area is obviously not practical if you have no intent to grab or pull your attacker with it.  If you are simply 'duking' it out with your fists, your hands should always be kept up in a protecting guard like boxers employ.

Of course this is karate 101.  I really wonder at some of these instructors that never explain the true concept of the hikite ("pulling arm").


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## Victor Smith (May 27, 2010)

The chambered hand is:1. used for grabbing and pulling an attacker  towards you.2. used for slicing back across the opponent after a strike. A slice into the head, torso or into the opponents 2nd arm striking.3. used for a rear elbow strike to someone behind you.It was not primarily designed for fighting as karate was not created to fight but to finish an opponent. It can work for fighting if you're really intent on causing one pain, the skill sets just need to be specifically modified for that purpose.


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## Wey (May 27, 2010)

Victor Smith said:


> The chambered hand is:1. used for grabbing and pulling an attacker  towards you.2. used for slicing back across the opponent after a strike. A slice into the head, torso or into the opponents 2nd arm striking.3. used for a rear elbow strike to someone behind you.It was not primarily designed for fighting as karate was not created to fight but to finish an opponent. It can work for fighting if you're really intent on causing one pain, the skill sets just need to be specifically modified for that purpose.



Karate was not designed to fight? I thought it was. Back in Okinawa the Japanese were not allowed to have weapons so they trained open hand combat, as well as training weapons they could get their hands on.


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## seasoned (May 27, 2010)

I think what Mr. Smith is saying is Karate was not designed to fight, but, "to destroy". If this is what he is saying, then I agree with him.


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## punisher73 (May 27, 2010)

Wey said:


> Karate was not designed to fight? I thought it was. Back in Okinawa the Japanese were not allowed to have weapons so they trained open hand combat, as well as training weapons they could get their hands on.


 
For many when they say the word "fight", they are referring to two consenting people over an ego issue.  Karate was designed for a self-defense situation in which you have no choice but to protect yourself from a surprise physical assault.


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## repz (May 27, 2010)

A book am I reading says unarmed is not martial arts. And unarmed was considered barbaric and lowly in japan. And that it started to evolve into training to be a better person.


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## Blindside (May 28, 2010)

repz said:


> A book am I reading says unarmed is not martial arts. And unarmed was considered barbaric and lowly in japan. And that it started to evolve into training to be a better person.



I am curious about the "unarmed is not martial arts" statement.  Meaning that in true war unarmed isn't a major part of the repertoire behind spear, bow, and sword?  Or something else entirely.

If if unarmed was considered "barbaric and lowly" how does that explain the extreme popularity of Sumo as a traditional sport?


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## punisher73 (May 28, 2010)

repz said:


> A book am I reading says unarmed is not martial arts. And unarmed was considered barbaric and lowly in japan. And that it started to evolve into training to be a better person.


 

That sounds like someone trying to promote an agenda.  Judo has always been popular in Japan and is unarmed.

The author may have a point if he is stating that karate was not a battlefield art and has always been a civilian system of self-defense makes that distinction.  Contrary to popular myth, karate was not designed by peasants to be used against samuari


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## punisher73 (May 28, 2010)

Wey said:


> How many of you fight with your fist in the classic chamber position as taught by karate? If you do, how effective has it been for you? If you do not keep your hands chambered when fighting, why do you not? Or is chambering the fists just a stepping stone for another way to position the hands / does it teach something like to pull the hands back, possibly?


 

Back to the original thread topic.  As someone else has pointed out, the returning arm is meant for grappling and pulling an opponent off balance and into your next strike.

It also serves as a purpose when done from a training stance to isolate the movement to learn proper body mechanics.

If you look at many traditional movements they have dual purposes and train other things than the obvious.  For example, when practicing blocking, the other arm  crosses and then you chamber for the block and then block.  The first movement, is a minor movement and is used as a parrying type.  The second movement, is the major movement and is the the obvious block to the arm.  So in practice and application you are training two defensive moves in one.


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## Victor Smith (May 28, 2010)

Hmmm,

First the purpose of karate was not to fight, in the sense it is to end the attacker's ablity to attack, which could ramp up to destroy, but only in very specific circumstances.

The toolbox of karate, the kata contain many techniques which cannot safely be applied to an attacker without damaging them. They're not for fighting but for concluding.

Now if you're not prepared, surprised, it might end up a fight but that's hardly what karate was geared for with it's force multipliers, tactical studies on movement and strategic placement. 

The problem with fighting is there are ony three main objectives.
1. You break them
2. They break you
3. You each break each other
and various sub categories of degree, none of which a rational person wants to be engaged in. The first option "you break them" makes more sense in a non-fighting atmosphere where you end them under their event horizon.

Second Okinawa is not Japan. Whatever happed in Japan isn't necessarily reresentative of Okinawa.  The Okinawan's never really banned weapons, most of their weapon systems (which developed separately from karate) were more focused on just kata practice, as they didnt' have people with weapons really attacking them.

Karate came from private practice, whatever the people felt was appropriate did not enter into  karate's developmen, for karate was not for the people.

If we were Okinawans, say 150 years ago, we would likely not have any opportunity to study karate as it was the preserve of the very few, most frequently from elite families and those with connections.

In any case use of the chamber can be a powerful tool if one wishes.


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## repz (May 28, 2010)

punisher73 said:


> That sounds like someone trying to promote an agenda. Judo has always been popular in Japan and is unarmed.
> 
> The author may have a point if he is stating that karate was not a battlefield art and has always been a civilian system of self-defense makes that distinction. Contrary to popular myth, karate was not designed by peasants to be used against samuari


 
I am not sure, I borrowed it from the Library and was only interested in reading the Karate part. The book is titled Modern Bujutsu and Budo. His opinion is before Judo was ever created.

If I remember, he said that Karate was for the peasants, because only they would need it. The warrior class relied on weapons, and it was considered important and respected. One of Funakoshis teachers changed the idea of karate to being about self development.

Obviously the author goes into how karate became popular in japan afterward.


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## jks9199 (May 28, 2010)

repz said:


> I am not sure, I borrowed it from the Library and was only interested in reading the Karate part. The book is titled Modern Bujutsu and Budo. His opinion is before Judo was ever created.
> 
> If I remember, he said that Karate was for the peasants, because only they would need it. The warrior class relied on weapons, and it was considered important and respected. One of Funakoshis teachers changed the idea of karate to being about self development.
> 
> Obviously the author goes into how karate became popular in japan afterward.


And how would that author address the various jujutsu systems that predate judo or karate?  The warriors of ancient Japan focused on weapons, of course, because they fought wars with weapons.  But that doesn't mean they neglected the possibility of being unarmed or having to fight without weapons.


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## Blindside (May 28, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> And how would that author address the various jujutsu systems that predate judo or karate?  The warriors of ancient Japan focused on weapons, of course, because they fought wars with weapons.  But that doesn't mean they neglected the possibility of being unarmed or having to fight without weapons.



The book "Modern Bujutsu and Budo" is by Donn Draeger, one of the better martial arts historians and researchers, so I'm going to have to hold off further comment until I read it.  The first two books in that series (and I own them) are excellent.


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## repz (May 28, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> And how would that author address the various jujutsu systems that predate judo or karate? The warriors of ancient Japan focused on weapons, of course, because they fought wars with weapons. But that doesn't mean they neglected the possibility of being unarmed or having to fight without weapons.


 
They do have a jujitsu part, but I only read about karate. The whole book he wrote is based on him breaking misconceptions about martial arts, and he does this by digging into japanese history and culture.

It said, as early as 1926, Higaonna and Itosu argued that te should be revised as a shugyo, as system of discipline, making it combative nature a spiritual one. And that it was not intended to hurt humans, but where techniques combined with spirit is used to solve problems and avoid conflict.

When it comes to unarmed combat from the bushi warriors (from what he claims is detailed study in the edo period) had little interest in the empty hand aspects of combat, that unarmed scuffling was regarded as peasant actitivities, and beneath their status. They believed a bushi, armed with a leathal weapon were capable of rendering all unarmed techniques inffective. It also said the samuraii had empty hand techniques they used against civil scuffles, but didnt constitute a major martial study.

It also had some interesting things about Funakoshi.

I'd probably read the whole book if I can find the time.


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## Blade96 (May 28, 2010)

usually keep our fists up in front of us in kumite position and not chambered.


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## repz (May 28, 2010)

I remember reading one of Funakoshis books about the chambered punch being a training principle. From what I took from this: I reasoned that when training for sprints, you just dont sprint. You strap weights on you, or you sprint with wider strides, or with jumps, or any other action that makes the sprint harder, to make normal sprints easier (due to extra muscle tension and development to overcome the extra stress). The chamber can be said to be an exaggerated movement, to build the muscles in the chest and arms as they slide past each other into chamber (it gets very difficult to throw many punches in chamber then it is to throw jabs and crosses (due to the other hand having to be retracted back which results in more "work"), and add the fact that some karate systems like doing this in deep stances, and you have quite a full body workout). This movement mimics many workout routines in strength training. I have always noticed how strong shouldered and fit many karatekas were in old pics.

But I know many karatekas that can whip out a chambered punch combatively and clock you so fast you wont even notice his hand was chambered at all.


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## seasoned (May 29, 2010)

Most untrained people will draw their fist back somewhere outside of their body, with their shoulder up and elbow high. In some cases their wrist is bent, and at the end of the punch they hit with the baby finger and ring finger knuckles. Although this will work in many bar fights, and these untrained people have knocked many an opponent out, it has it's draw backs. Their weight is generally on the same side as their hitting fist, making them double weighted, and off balanced. Once they have sprained their wrist, or fractured their hand from improper striking surface it renders them less functional for more then one aggressor.
"The Chamber".
Not functional in an encounter where self defense is required. "Hand should never draw back to strike". If hands are down, and a strike is required, then your fist will travel through the chamber position gaining speed as it reaches it's target.
"The Chamber part 2".
Shoulder down, elbow in and touching the ribs. Draw the closed fist back until the baby finger touches the ribs. Don't draw the fist back to far so the shoulder and elbow start to rise up. In the Chambered position I teach that the baby finger and the thumb should be touching the ribs. From this position your fist "palm up" slides along the ribs until the elbow clears the body and then the fist turns palm down and corkscrews into the target while the other fist takes it's place on the other side of your body ready for the next strike.
This is classic, and the way I was taught and teach it. *Without boring you any farther* I will finish by saying that this is practice only, and only funtional in teaching proper form, structure, and technique. When in combat, we strike from where ever our hands are, but using the above model as our base for proper hitting.


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## Wey (May 29, 2010)

Thank you all for the enlightening posts! I see that there is still much for me to learn!


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## Haze (May 30, 2010)

Wey said:


> Back in Okinawa the Japanese were not allowed to have weapons so they trained open hand combat, as well as training weapons they could get their hands on.



When Japan basicly invaded and controled Okinawa the Japanese were allowed weapons, the Okinawans were not.


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## kaizasosei (May 30, 2010)

The position of chambering' the punches beside the hip or at chest level is not unique to okinawan karate.  It is found in many martial arts and especially double weapons and sword. From the practical standpoint, it is a vital base and starting point for a variety of moves and especially strikes. Actually, when one chambers one side  automatically one is opening that side. By opening i mean one is forming perfect or proud posture on that side.  Although it is obviously possible and indeed good stretch to chambr both sides, actually, the counter motion is important too. Basically, when one chambers, one has the elbow behind oneself forming the proud posture.  The countermotion is when the elbow is in front.  Solve et coagula.  Cannot bind without severing and cannot sever without binding.  -This is my way.  

The power of the bind is in the meridian of the big toe.  The cut is the line of the small toe. So that one could say that water is the left toe and fire the right , right small being the earth. Whatever but this jives with other teachings real well. Don't be fooled because with small variations same positions can become internally very different. And when one aims for a certain goal one must be careful not to stick too much with one idea without constantly rechecking and examining if any other forces are countering in a negative way.  

The severed proud side will be a superior striking tool though even if the tanden is cut and the energy is disturbed.  The bind will be rather unflexable but has weird strength of monsterlike hunching shoulder and the energy will be intense.  The sever is proud like the techniques of heaven but the bind is slightly deformed yet vital techniques of earth. All good posture martial arts concentrate on the perfect heaven posture.  Some other martial arts use the eath power with great success.
The sever comes to be through the striking, working,art cutting and favours crushing palmstrikes, sword and fine artwork. The bind is actually solid, comfortable and lazy. The bind makes the shoulder truly rise from the tanden and spine, the sever will keep the shoulder relaxed mostly lowered but also fake raised whereby the connection is weak and it is eventually bad for the shoulder-that some swordsmaster have even destroyed their shoulder to the point of not being able to use them- so the bind is not more unhealthy than the sever.

The severing in the hands is kenin, a swordhand with forefinger and middle extended but also the single stretched pinky (held low). To raise it would  start to bind. The thumbs are also very important especially the knuckle joint closest to tip-bend in or stretch out to sever.  This thumb use corresponds to the lotus and diamond fists.  Again, same motions can take on a life of their own-it's all in the tanden.

How can one unite tiger and dragon without extreme luck or excellent work?  

I know this answer is prolly more spacey and wild than what was asked, but the chambering is a big deal i think and in asia it is a movement that often is synonamous with martial arts.  But posture is important in many arts.  It gets even funkier with head and chin position, jaw and shoulder hip dislocation, eye use, etc....popping for power and energy.


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## Brandon Fisher (May 31, 2010)

Wey,
I agree completely with Seasoned and Victor Smith they are right on target.  What they are describing is called hiki te (*&#24341;&#12365;&#25163;*) or pulling hand.

Also as already mentioned Okinawa is much different than Japan even today its different.  The japanese never had a weapons ban placed upon them the Okinawan's did.  Its a fascinating story to me.  All the history of Karate and Kobudo.


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## kaizasosei (May 31, 2010)

Hikite...my uncle used to call it Fliegenschnapper-flysnatcher. A move you can see many weathermen do as they do their forcasting.

j


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## Brandon Fisher (May 31, 2010)

kaizasosei said:


> Hikite...my uncle used to call it Fliegenschnapper-flysnatcher. A move you can see many weathermen do as they do their forcasting.
> 
> j


 
??? you lost me


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## repz (May 31, 2010)

If you really want to find out why the chamber, you might need to check out the chinese martial arts, since it is one of the mixes of karate, and its one of the oldest martial arts. Not sure if the indian martial arts chamber also, but that would also be a good research subject as well, since its been said indian martial arts is the oldest form of organized combat, and some legends say kung fu came from india (both of these statements are controversial).

The Japanese and Okinawans can interpret for themselves, but I would imagine you would want to try to find a source.


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## K-man (May 31, 2010)

To my mind Seasoned had it right in his first post. In a fighting stance you would never stand with a fist chambered. You would have your hands in front ready to provide a defence or offence.  The chambered hand in kihon is to develop muscle memory. Here is a link to a bunkai clip of Taira Sensei of Goju Ryu karate, in Okinawa.  In the first part of the clip you will see him controlling his opponent by constantly pulling him in.  These grabs coincide with the chambered hand positions in the kata.


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## Brandon Fisher (May 31, 2010)

repz said:


> If you really want to find out why the chamber, you might need to check out the chinese martial arts, since it is one of the mixes of karate, and its one of the oldest martial arts. Not sure if the indian martial arts chamber also, but that would also be a good research subject as well, since its been said indian martial arts is the oldest form of organized combat, and some legends say kung fu came from india (both of these statements are controversial).
> 
> The Japanese and Okinawans can interpret for themselves, but I would imagine you would want to try to find a source.


Please excuse me for saying this but you sound like you have never trained with the Okinawan's.  They are the source for karate and they had a fighting system of their own before the influence from China.  Also please do not mistake this, japanese karate and okinawan karate are different even in their similarities.


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## repz (May 31, 2010)

Brandon Fisher said:


> Please excuse me for saying this but you sound like you have never trained with the Okinawan's. They are the source for karate and they had a fighting system of their own before the influence from China. Also please do not mistake this, japanese karate and okinawan karate are different even in their similarities.


 
Okinawa praised their chinese influence in their karate. Originally, Karate to them meant "china-hand", it was Funakoshi that changed it for japan. How eactly am I confusing japanese and okinawan martial arts?

Chinese martial arts have chambered punches, and there is more writings and historians that support that chinese martial arts influenced karate, or Ti (as I am sure you are referring to when you mean okinawan unarmed combat that existed) then there is to say Ti influencing the old arts of chinese martial arts. This is the reason of my statement, I dont have to train in Okinawan styles to have learned that.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 1, 2010)

repz said:


> Okinawa praised their chinese influence in their karate. Originally, Karate to them meant "china-hand", it was Funakoshi that changed it for japan. How eactly am I confusing japanese and okinawan martial arts?
> 
> Chinese martial arts have chambered punches, and there is more writings and historians that support that chinese martial arts influenced karate, or Ti (as I am sure you are referring to when you mean okinawan unarmed combat that existed) then there is to say Ti influencing the old arts of chinese martial arts. This is the reason of my statement, I dont have to train in Okinawan styles to have learned that.


 
Yes I understand that the chinese styles use the chambered position in their styles.  Look closely at Chin'na and the Okinawan expoent of that called Tuite.

Yes I was referring to Ti and the original name of karate did mean china hand it was toudi.  The kanji for it read as so.
&#21776; (refers to the T'ang Dynasty in China)
&#25163; (read te in Japanese and di in Uchinaguchi)
 
The reason I made the comment about Okinawa Karate being different then Japanese karate is because the focus even today is different, that was never more apperant to me until I was in Okinawa a couple of months ago. 

Naha-te which became Goju Ryu had a much greater influence from China then Shuri-te had.  Shuri-te or Shorin Ryu was influenced to some degree much different than that of Goju Ryu.  If you look at the applications you can see the difference in the influences and what chinese styles and how much of what had a influence.

Oh also just to clarify I didn't say train in the Okinawan styles I said have trained with the Okinawan's regardless of style.


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## kaizasosei (Jun 1, 2010)

I think when one does a side kick among others, one also does pretty much the same pulling back of the hand though further away from body. Kicking is also great, especially speed kicking and stretched leg. 

Aside from the speed, i think one can do some powerful lunging body check style strikes too, like in the one video posted above. Also the jab packs a fair bit of power. But i think the main strength is still the faster more dexterous side, although one could argue that it simply goes hand in hand. Plus one could achieve 'balance'

-But to really get on topic and sorry for drifting so wildly...it is a risk to lower ones hands and one would want them up at face level for defence as well as for offence. But i have seen real fights where the fighters really do keep their fists to their hips and viciously take down multiple persons each time returning the fist- to the hip although at a distance then closing in quick. Have one hand out with the chambered side leg back, so standing more sideways, it's not all that bad. But i wouldn't want to be facing someone at close range with my hands down, because it is close to impossible to block faster than the attack can reach you or get past.

One could say that the chamber position is a fundemental aspect of traditional martial arts.

In karate basically all moves are in unicin. People who have never learned karate blocks and punches would most likely not be able to even do the motion. Would need a bunch of tries for most people. It's a coordination thing where left and right are in unicin so that when one block goes out and one punch returns to the chamber, then to whatever other postion or strike or block, eventually even reaching a state where the two motions become one in the mind. 

In this regard the karate ways are probably closest to twosworded techniques. 
I find the beauty of twosworded techniques is that the two move as one yet eventually can even be quite independant and yet still one. Meaning that if that state of oneness of the two weapons is achieved, by simple concentrating on a further happening, one can actually concentrate on 3 things at the same time.




j


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 1, 2010)

Keep in mind that in karate not all techniques are what they seem.  You see the surface function of it but not always the underlying application.  Karate kata was created in such a way that it resemble Ryukyuan dance to help conceal its purpose.  Even today in Okinawa they will tell you kata without proper power, stance, application and focus is nothing but dance.


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## K-man (Jun 1, 2010)

kaizasosei said:


> -But to really get on topic and sorry for drifting so wildly...it is a risk to lower ones hands and one would want them up at face level for defence as well as for offence. But i have seen real fights where the fighters really do keep their fists to their hips and viciously take down multiple persons each time returning the fist- to the hip although at a distance then closing in quick. Have one hand out with the chambered side leg back, so standing more sideways, it's not all that bad. But i wouldn't want to be facing someone at close range with my hands down, because it is close to impossible to block faster than the attack can reach you or get past.
> 
> One could say that the chamber position is a fundemental aspect of traditional martial arts.
> 
> In karate basically all moves are in unicin. People who have never learned karate blocks and punches would most likely not be able to even do the motion. Would need a bunch of tries for most people. It's a coordination thing where left and right are in unicin so that when one block goes out and one punch returns to the chamber, then to whatever other postion or strike or block, eventually even reaching a state where the two motions become one in the mind.


What you have described "one hand out with the chambered side leg back, so standing more sideways" sounds more like a cocked fist than a true chamber. Pulling the fist back to generate more power in the strike is very common in any fighting situation but this is totally different to chamber.

"When one block goes out and one punch returns to the chamber, then to whatever other postion or strike or block, eventually even reaching a state where the two motions become one in the mind". I have never seen, nor could I imagine, anyone fighting like this. To me that would be robotic and without fluidity, plus your defence would be compromised. I don't believe that the chambered hand was ever intended to be used this way.

Another thing to consider is this.  If you believe that the chambered hand is a basic part of fighting, what chamber should be used? In kata, depending on application, chamber can be clenched or open hand and palm up or palm down. Kamae, or ready position, prior to kumite has both hands up, in front of the body, not one or both hands chambered.

"One could say that the chamber position is a fundamental aspect of traditional martial arts."  I believe chamber is a fundamental aspect of *training* traditional martial arts but it has very little to do with the actual delivery of the punch, even though a punch can be delivered from the chamber position.


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## kaizasosei (Jun 2, 2010)

Actually, i do think that two sworded moves and karate movements both have to start out robotically.  After training and experience it becomes fluid and the timing is adjusted to whatever situation, but in the mind it can all happen more or less as one.  Firstly, one wants to have ones arms in the right position for defence and offence and secondly one would want to also move in such a way so that one is ready for an attack anytime and that one does not get one's own arms in the way or collide swords.

I still say chamber is chamber be it to the side a bit or not, same even for hassounokamae depending one how far you pull back, or ninjutsus dokonokamae, it is essentially the freeing of the shoulder and readying of a strike or block to achieve great speed, momentum. If you do it with open hand or with fist is secondary to the draw(although i feel the open hand will chamber better and more completely- 



> What you have described "one hand out with the chambered side leg back,  so standing more sideways" sounds more like a cocked fist than a true  chamber. Pulling the fist back to generate more power in the strike is  very common in any fighting situation but this is totally different to  chamber.


I don't see it as being so different. More than often, most will use this. Basically, if the chamber is really chambered, internally it may be still chambered when the punch is out.  So the chambering i mean is in the posture and internal positions.  So if you sever through chambering and severing of certain meridians, you will always be chambered practically no matter what you do.

A boxers jab or a shoulder slam is not chambered but a good boxers upercut probably would be.  The uppercut movement like or the back of the hand facing down is a chamber. Same when the fencer holds sword out with back of hand towards ground.  I've seen picture of bobi no kamae and it looked chambered.  Even the taking the hat off oldschool gesture is a bit of a chamber and then some-probably also the courtsy bow. Most people will write with a bit of a chamber in them . Anything that requires dexterity could be.
 The dexterity takes lots of energy and concentration is is somewhat unstable and often bad for the shoulder, but still the fastest and most effective for striking.

Bruce lee would stand sideways not chambered and with twitching movement with his lead punch would lunge out and his end position is fairly chambered, internally speaking... you can visibly see this.  



j


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