# What does Wing Chun need in the 21st Century?



## geezer (Aug 3, 2019)

What does Wing Chun need? The traditonal answer is _nothing. The old way is best! _Proper Wing Chun as taught by _my sifu_ (insert name here) is a complete system. People just need to have faith, believe in what their sifu tells them, and humbly train harder to do things _correctly. _Only then will they acheive the unmatched skills of our Wing Chun ancestors! 

...Also the earth was created 6,000 years ago, is flat, and all you have to do is sincerely _believe_ in (insert religious belief system here) ...and trust me , all will be hunky dory.

Now if you agree with what's written above, this is _*not*_ the thread for you. I'm more interested in the perspectives of those of us who have practiced traditional Wing Chun/WingTsun/Ving Tsun (or a simialr system) and have become disillusioned with the way things are going. As the years or _decades_ pass, is the system you are training really giving you all that it promised? Or is it becoming marginalized, and becoming the domain of hobbyists and magical thinkers who would never dare get in a fight?

In this day and age where martial arts and combat sports are put to the test, and fails are spread all over youtube and social media, backward looking traditionalism and magical thinking are not a recipe for an effective and complete fighting system. So what, if any changes do you think are needed to revitalize Wing Chun in the 21st Century, and who are the people who we might look to move the art forward?


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 3, 2019)

Probably for all wing chun to become JKD or a similar work over.  And then try to make it work in the ring to attract combat sport folk and just mix it with being a combat sport more. 

I havent personally done it, but i think if it turns itself into JKD it probbly would be more sucessful and thats the main stay of its popularity anyway, bruce lee did it.  (along with many other things and mixed them)

and maybe a end to the decentralized nature of it and no true wing chun being around and everyone arguing theirs is the true one.


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## Martial D (Aug 3, 2019)

My fighting style is a delicious spaghetti, my WC is the pasta. Kinda plain and flavourless on its own.

The sauce makes it good. But without the noodles it's just a messy sauce without cohesion.


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## Headhunter (Aug 3, 2019)

Rat said:


> Probably for all wing chun to become JKD or a similar work over.  And then try to make it work in the ring to attract combat sport folk and just mix it with being a combat sport more.
> 
> I havent personally done it, but i think if it turns itself into JKD it probbly would be more sucessful and thats the main stay of its popularity anyway, bruce lee did it.  (along with many other things and mixed them)
> 
> and maybe a end to the decentralized nature of it and no true wing chun being around and everyone arguing theirs is the true one.


The majority of people who train martial arts couldn't care less about what happens in a silly ring. Only a small fraction care at all about that.


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## Martial D (Aug 3, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> The majority of people who train martial arts couldn't care less about what happens in a silly ring. Only a small fraction care at all about that.


Ya. Only the ones that care if they actually work or not.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 3, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> The majority of people who train martial arts couldn't care less about what happens in a silly ring. Only a small fraction care at all about that.



I would say enough do care for it to be a consideration.    after all pending rule set it is probably the closest you will get  to a proper fight in controlled conditions.   And some martial arts are tied to a sport as much as i hate to say it and do pretty well outside and inside a ring.      

also that was one part of my post, the main part was more about turning WC into JKD or Hybradising it in some fashion to overhaul it. Most people who get success in a ring mix it with something and i think it works 10X better if they mix it with something.  Almost everything will work on a untrained person in a ambush situation so long as you can channel aggression into it. 

So since most people find success from WC after merging it, maybe if they all centralized some form of circulem  and added some styles like Bruce lee did for himself they could make it better.     Or at least mass encourage people to cross train or follow JKD ideology. 


they dont really properly spar do they in WC?     Like they dont usually do what you see boxers and kick boxers do and the like.


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## jobo (Aug 3, 2019)

geezer said:


> What does Wing Chun need? The traditonal answer is _nothing. The old way is best! _Proper Wing Chun as taught by _my sifu_ (insert name here) is a complete system. People just need to have faith, believe in what their sifu tells them, and humbly train harder to do things _correctly. _Only then will they acheive the unmatched skills of our Wing Chun ancestors!
> 
> ...Also the earth was created 6,000 years ago, is flat, and all you have to do is sincerely _believe_ in (insert religious belief system here) ...and trust me , all will be hunky dory.
> 
> ...


I haven't done wing chun, so have to go with what I've seen, I did spend a while doing lau gar kung fu, and it was to my mind extremely effective, sure it had a few daft things in it, but drop them and it worked like a charm in the fights I got into. so unless my memory is playing tricks, what wing chun needs is to be more lau gar.

which then begs the question of why lau gar is thin on the ground ?


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## ShortBridge (Aug 3, 2019)

I'm choosing to engage in this conversation, knowing that it will end badly. That shows that I have more needed growth in my future, but here goes. 

First of all, this does not describe me accurately. 



geezer said:


> _...The old way is best! _Proper Wing Chun as taught by _my sifu_ (insert name here) is a complete system. People just need to have faith, believe in what their sifu tells them, and humbly train harder to do things _correctly. _Only then will they acheive the unmatched skills of our Wing Chun ancestors! ...




Certainly this does not either and by equating the two, you have already soured the dialogue and any potential healthy discussion from a traditional Wing Chun point of view:



geezer said:


> ...Also the earth was created 6,000 years ago, is flat, and all you have to do is sincerely _believe_ in (insert religious belief system here) ...and trust me , all will be hunky dory.




Let the MMA/JKD/YouTube Intellectuals take it from here. You're a smart guy, Geezer and someone who i respect on these forums. What were you hoping for here? You've seen this play out on these fora a million times, you what happens next:

Add grappling, mix it with BJJ and P90X, throw out vertical punching, because boxing is superior. Any other viewpoint will get drowned out, if they even bother to try, no one's perspective will change and moderators get involved when things turn ugly. In the end, no one will have touched hands with anyone, everyone will feel right about what they felt right about to begin with and no one will have learned anything about anything or anyone in this thread. 

I will say this, you can't equate "the old way" to the the (insert large western lineage cirricula here), which is the first fatal flaw with all of these discussions. The more that I meet true experts who learned non-commerically, especially if they learned in the (general) east rather than the (general) west, the more than I believe that the way that things were exported was not "the old way". Not just with Wing Chun, either. 

If it doesn't work for you, it might be the system, it might your experience with it. It might not be the right style for you. It might be that you (or anyone's) interest is different. It's all good, but you just set up a 20 page discussion that will be dominated by people who don't know wing chun except from videos, forum discussion, and JKD. Anyone who might actually have an informed perspective from a traditional Wing Chun perspective will either not be foolish enough to poke their head up or will get "owned", by a chorus of the regulars like the guy who thinks Bruce Lee "fixed" Wing Chun or that what is taught as JKD even has anything to do with Bruce Lee and someone else can start another about why Wing Chun people don't post here as much any more. Maybe that is proof that Wing Chun is dead. If Wing Chun people don't compete and win UFC and don't join this discussions, well it must not exist then. Or maybe it's just proof that it doesn't work.

Come on, seriously, you know better than this. Any regrets at all about the way you set this discussion up? I know that you're not a troll.


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## Buka (Aug 3, 2019)

geezer said:


> What does Wing Chun need? The traditonal answer is _nothing. The old way is best! _Proper Wing Chun as taught by _my sifu_ (insert name here) is a complete system. People just need to have faith, believe in what their sifu tells them, and humbly train harder to do things _correctly. _Only then will they acheive the unmatched skills of our Wing Chun ancestors!
> 
> ...Also the earth was created 6,000 years ago, is flat, and all you have to do is sincerely _believe_ in (insert religious belief system here) ...and trust me , all will be hunky dory.
> 
> ...



Wait, what? You want something to adapt to needs of a time? Nooooooooooo!


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## Flying Crane (Aug 3, 2019)

People can learn any system.  The system is just a training methodology.  It is then up to the people to take what they have learned and figure out what they can do with it.

If I don’t like a particular methodology, then I train something else.  But that is an individual choice.  Anyone who thinks they have “the” solution on a broad scale is lying to themselves.


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## Headhunter (Aug 3, 2019)

Rat said:


> I would say enough do care for it to be a consideration.    after all pending rule set it is probably the closest you will get  to a proper fight in controlled conditions.   And some martial arts are tied to a sport as much as i hate to say it and do pretty well outside and inside a ring.
> 
> also that was one part of my post, the main part was more about turning WC into JKD or Hybradising it in some fashion to overhaul it. Most people who get success in a ring mix it with something and i think it works 10X better if they mix it with something.  Almost everything will work on a untrained person in a ambush situation so long as you can channel aggression into it.
> 
> ...


I dunno. you actually attended any classes yet to base that assumption off? Because from my experience in doing actual classes very few care about sport competitions even the people in jiu jitsu or boxing clubs most are just for learning and exercise not competing


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## MetalBoar (Aug 3, 2019)

geezer said:


> What does Wing Chun need? The traditonal answer is _nothing. The old way is best! _Proper Wing Chun as taught by _my sifu_ (insert name here) is a complete system. People just need to have faith, believe in what their sifu tells them, and humbly train harder to do things _correctly. _Only then will they acheive the unmatched skills of our Wing Chun ancestors!
> 
> ...Also the earth was created 6,000 years ago, is flat, and all you have to do is sincerely _believe_ in (insert religious belief system here) ...and trust me , all will be hunky dory.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately I'm mostly in agreement with ShortBridge in that I fear I already know what most every regular poster is going to say before they respond. I also think I'll probably regret getting involved as well, but I'll make a good faith effort. For those who hate long posts you might want to skip this...

I think there are waves of popularity with most martial arts as they get exposure through film, competitions, marketing, whatever and that there's generally a pattern of early adopters that want to actually do the art to learn to fight. As time goes on and the wave of popularity crests more and more people get involved because it's what they've heard of and what "everyone knows" works. We're at about this point right now with MMA related arts where they've sucking all the air out of the room for TMA. Most of those who _really_ want to fight go do MMA and most of those who don't _really_ want to fight go do TMA's.

This leads to the vicious cycle that geezer describes in which TMA instructors can't actually teach fighting if they want to run a commercial school because few of their students want to fight, forcing those few students to either stick with something watered down or leave for the MMA school down the street. Eventually, when everyone takes these martial arts that "everyone knows" are the most effective they too get watered down into kiddy day care or LARPing because the vast majority of people, even the majority of people who want to do a martial art, don't actually ever want to get hit, or at least not _really_ hit.

Since I saw the genesis of this thread elsewhere I'll say that in 50 years MMA may be seen the same way TMA is today. Boxing has definitely hit an interesting tipping point, at least in the Seattle area. There are 2 "boxing" clubs near my house. I was interested in both of them before I got a better look at what they're doing. The closer of the two states on the second question in their FAQ:
*
"I don’t want to get hit; is this a contact workout?*
No—not ever! Each person in class has their own heavy bag to workout on, plus their own space to move around the bag. Trust us, you won’t even realize anyone else is in the class because you’ll be so focused on the workout! And, rest easy, we never allow sparring or fighting at ****** Boxing Club"

The other boxing club only did sparring something like once a week (they're schedule is broken on their web page right now so I can't refresh my memory) and it was a night I couldn't make it so I lost interest. Both of them seem like they're focused on the brogrammer looking for a fun workout, not on people who are interested in actually boxing.

BJJ has some extra immunity to this because you have to be at least half way serious to be willing to get all sweaty with a heavy guy on top of you if you're not already inclined to that sort of thing. I don't know how accurate they are, but even with BJJ I've read some interviews with Rickson Gracie and others that bemoan that the direction it's rules have been going are poor for teaching self defense, so maybe that isn't enough to prevent this decline.

Please note that I'm not saying you can't find legit boxing instruction in Seattle, there's an MMA gym near me that looks like it probably has pretty good boxing classes in fact. I can also find legit TMA instruction in Seattle, it's just not nearly as common as it used to be and it seems to be a tiny minority of the TMA on offer. My point is that in 50 years MMA, Muay Thai and boxing may very well be divided into two kinds of schools, 1) for pro fighters and those who're trying to be pro fighters and 2) (the vast majority) watered down schools for people who want an MMA "experience" without having to really get hit.

Where does this leave Wing Chun and what should it do going forward? That's a harder question. Projecting forward the hypothetical 50 years from the other thread a lot can happen. Right now we've got the lowest violent crime rates of my lifetime. Unless someone lives in a really bad neighborhood or their work exposes them to violence self defense is unimportant for most people for practical purposes. If that changes then there may be a resurgence of interest in TMA training that's focused on fighting. Outside of that I'm not sure what Wing Chun as a whole can do to ensure it's success. Individual schools can take a variety of approaches to maintain relevance and they're going to vary depending on how you define relevance.

To a larger extent I think the question is what do you or I want out of MA training and what do we think is relevant? If you want to fight in MMA style matches or teach people to be successful at that then you probably need to go study the arts that are made for that rule set and like Martial D adapt what you've learned from Wing Chun for that purpose. I'm not terribly interested in participating in MMA for a variety of reasons but I'm also disappointed with the lack of sparring and actual fight focused training to be found at most non-MMA schools these days.

What I'm working on for myself is slowly putting together a group of people with diverse backgrounds in MA to do some free sparring and drills to experiment with and test various techniques in a heterogeneous environment. It would be a private club not a commercial school so we'd be able to curate the membership and keep out the lunatics. I've got a friend who's fixing up a space for this purpose and when he's done I'll go into high gear recruiting some skilled people that I know. If I can get it off the ground I'll let you know how it works out.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 3, 2019)

MetalBoar said:


> *I don’t want to get hit; *


There are ways that you can develop MA skill.

- You have better chance to hit your opponent.
- Your opponent has less chance to hit you.
- You have better chance to take your opponent down.
- Your opponent has less chance to take you down.

We don't want to get hit by 100% power. But do we care about to get hit by 30%, 20%, or even 10% power?

We train MA so we can reduce the chance to be get hit. The only way that we can develop that skill is through the "sport" format.

If we can set the rule set as:

- If you hit me within 20 punches (or, 30, 40, ...), you win that round. Otherwise I win that round.
- Repeat this for 15 rounds and record the result.

Since in this game that 1 persons plays offense and 1 person plays defense, the person who play offense can be relax (not worry about to get hit), he can reduce his punching power down to 10%.

The advantage of this game are:

- safe,
- easy to develop skill, and
- fun.


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## MetalBoar (Aug 3, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There are ways to develop MA skill.
> 
> - You have better chance to hit your opponent.
> - Your opponent has less chance to hit you.
> ...


Oh, I want to be clear, I don't have a problem with getting hit as a part of training. I was quoting the website from a local "boxing" gym. The full quote of their website:



MetalBoar said:


> The closer of the two states on the second question in their FAQ:
> *
> "I don’t want to get hit; is this a contact workout?*
> No—not ever! Each person in class has their own heavy bag to workout on, plus their own space to move around the bag. Trust us, you won’t even realize anyone else is in the class because you’ll be so focused on the workout! And, rest easy, we never allow sparring or fighting at ****** Boxing Club"


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 3, 2019)

If you can use your WC

- Tan Shou, Bon Shou, Fu Shou, ... in such a way that within 15 rounds, your opponent's initial 20 punches cannot land on your body, You have good defense skill.
- chain punches to hit your opponent in every 15 rounds during your initial 20 punches, you have good offense skill.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 3, 2019)

MetalBoar said:


> Oh, I want to be clear, I don't have a problem with getting hit as a part of training. I was quoting the website from a local "boxing" gym. The full quote of their website:


I don't want to get hit on my head with 100% power either. Most of my students are wrestlers. They don't like to get hit on the head.

When there is an issue, there must be solutions. I came out this rule set so my wrestler students can experience the striking environment without too much fear.

In sport, if you can win 15-0 today (either in defense, or in offense), you may smile in your dream for the next 3 nights. Even money cannot buy this kind of fun. So sport should not be a bad term.


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## geezer (Aug 3, 2019)

ShortBridge said:


> I'm choosing to engage in this conversation, knowing that it will end badly. That shows that I have more needed growth in my future, but here goes ...Come on, seriously, you know better than this. _Any regrets_ at all about the way you set this discussion up? I know that you're not a troll.



ShortBridge, yes, _sometimes I am a bit of a troll_, and no,_ I don't regret_ the way I kicked off this discussion. For one thing, it's the first time we've had any real debate on this forum in months. Moreover, your post was a thoughtful and worthy contribution.

Now troll or not, (probably more of an ungainly imp) I do feel that interest in WC is waning worldwide and risks eventually dying out, except among people who do it as a sort of _wuxia _fantasy -which is OK, but Wing Chun is so much more than that.

I guess what I'd like to see is some formats to share and test what we do, and not just a WC version of MMA or San da. Maybe more venues for light to medium sparring, maybe some agreed upon formats for playing with chi-sau? Maybe just a more open minded and less authoritarian attitude than what I've commonly seen.

Here's something I ran across a couple of days ago. Seems like Alan Orr is setting up a some sort of chi-sau competition with a pretty reasonable sounding rule set. Dunno if it will work. Usually when you take _an attribute training drill _like chi-sau and try to make it _competitive_, ego takes over and skill goes out the window. But with the right rule-set and good officiating, it might be worth a second look. What do you think?


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## Bonesetter (Aug 4, 2019)

I see and train Wing Chun as a close range self defense system.  I don't see it as a combat sport or try and make it something it isn't intended to be as it excels at it's purpose.

Adding other arts to your training can be beneficial but I don't have the time to train more than one.  If you compete you will need to practice multiple arts focusing on different ranges, scenarios etc. but that is a whole different conversation in itself.

To revitalize Wing Chun and all Kung Fu for that matter we need to get with the times.  Add strength and conditioning to your training, cardio (all these fat sifu's have no hope in a fight lasting more than a few seconds), scenario based training to deal with different martial arts, single and multiple attackers and people carrying weapons... the list goes on.

To practice the forms and chi sao constantly will leave you wondering what Wing Chun is actually good for.  Make it real and in your face and it becomes formidable.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 4, 2019)

geezer said:


> What does Wing Chun need? The traditonal answer is _nothing. The old way is best! _Proper Wing Chun as taught by _my sifu_ (insert name here) is a complete system. People just need to have faith, believe in what their sifu tells them, and humbly train harder to do things _correctly. _Only then will they acheive the unmatched skills of our Wing Chun ancestors!
> 
> ...Also the earth was created 6,000 years ago, is flat, and all you have to do is sincerely _believe_ in (insert religious belief system here) ...and trust me , all will be hunky dory.
> 
> ...


As you know, I've no experience in WC. As you also know, that won't stop me from replying. 

Seriously, based on what I've read of discussions, and what I know (from experience) of how some arts cling to what was taught, I have some thoughts. I might be saying the same thing Rat says - I'm not well informed about JKD's evolution from WC.

I think it needs more openness. Both of mind and of doors. Exchanging of ideas and being willing to say things like, "Those guys do that thing better than we do, even though it's supposed to be a strength. What can we learn from them?" I don't think it's respectful to an art to keep it the same (it's not necessarily disrespectful, but misplaced in most cases). WC has a core, and I've seen many people (like @Martial D) talk about how that core works well when they combine it with other material. That suggests to me that there's a layer that can grow within WC to make it more useful.

As always, I'll refer back to my own experience. I've seen folks train in my primary art and take many, many years to get basic competence at stuff that shouldn't take that long. Why? Not enough resisted training to really learn the basics mechanics and principles of grappling quickly. And I see tools in the art go ignored - even penalized in tests, though they're taught and tested elsewhere in the art. Why? Because there's too little realistic chaos happening to show how necessary those tools are. I've started introducing more chaos, adding more resistance, and training solid basics earlier - even delaying the formal curriculum of the art until some basics are in place. I think WC might benefit from a similar look, though the problems and solution may be quite different (though I think the lack of resistance is as common in WC as in NGA).


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 4, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> The majority of people who train martial arts couldn't care less about what happens in a silly ring. Only a small fraction care at all about that.


While you're right, there's some valuable information to be gained in a ring. I think schools (not just arts) benefit from having competitors. It needn't be everyone, but the information they bring back is helpful to everyone.

To me, it's not about whether the competitor wins or loses, but about the holes and opportunities they experience and can relate. What they want to work on when they get back (and what they don't want to spend time on) is informational. There are other ways to get that information, but the easiest way to get it is for some students to compete.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 4, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> We don't want to get hit by 100% power. But do we care about to get hit by 30%, 20%, or even 10% power?


Because people see one thing and generalize it. People see a boxing or MMA match, and think if they get hit they'll be bloody and bruised. I've been hit many times, and while I've had a few bruises, most weren't noticeable (except to me) and rarely was there any blood.

But people with no experience don't know that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 4, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can use your WC
> 
> - Tan Shou, Bon Shou, Fu Shou, ... in such a way that within 15 rounds, your opponent's initial 20 punches cannot land on your body, You have good defense skill.
> - chain punches to hit your opponent in every 15 rounds during your initial 20 punches, you have good offense skill.


I find these conclusions from these kinds of drills questionable, John. It could mean the other guy isn't very good (so you don't need much skill). Or it could mean they aren't really trying - which happens a lot, in my experience, when there's a semi-cooperative drill like this.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 4, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> I dunno. you actually attended any classes yet to base that assumption off? Because from my experience in doing actual classes very few care about sport competitions even the people in jiu jitsu or boxing clubs most are just for learning and exercise not competing



 The assumption is based on the bread and butter of boxing being for sport competition, the clubs that do actual boxing exist to put people into a boxing ring or teach them the skills of boxing, just because some do boxercise and not full on boxing doesn't mean they don't exist to teach boxing.    Either the club does boxercise only or some people in a boxing club have no interest in the sport and basically just do boxercise.  

and has been echoed there is plenty to learn about fighting in the ring and thats the only really controlled space you can have a proper fight in without much risk to yourself, both legally and health wise.   So i would expect a subset of person to either, need to pursue it as a job or want to pursue it properly pressure test their skills in that sport/rule set.  


Ultimately i would think it depends on the club and the atmosphere it has, not everyone in a combat sport is willing to waive the actual sport practice like with TMA and forms.       But more people would at least give sparring a go if not go full on into the sport as thats integral in combat sport practice or at least enough people to not be brushed off, its like going to a football club and not playing any football and just doing the football practice before hand.   Or not liking football for that matter.  

anyway, probably a argument for another thread at this point.  This isnt what will help WC at all at this point.


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## geezer (Aug 4, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> As you know, I've no experience in WC. As you also know, that won't stop me from replying ...I think it needs more openness. Both of mind and of doors. Exchanging of ideas and being willing to say things like, "Those guys do that thing better than we do...



Thanks for the reply, Gerry. Based on what I've gleaned from your many comments over the years, I get the impression that you've dealt with virtually the same issues with your NGA organization. And, judging from the many arts you've had some experience in (as listed in your profile) you have exactly that openness and curiosity that I sometimes find lacking with my Wing Chun organization leadership.



gpseymour said:


> As always, I'll refer back to my own experience. I've seen folks train in my primary art and take many, many years to get basic competence at stuff that shouldn't take that long. Why? Not enough resisted training to really learn the basics mechanics and principles of grappling quickly...



I've seen the same thing in WC. Sometimes our almost obsessive perfectionism regarding details distracts combined with choreographed training drills prevents students from grasping the "big picture" and slows development of truly _functional_ responses to the chaotic reality of working with a resisting partner. Now I am, in fact, a detail oriented guy and fully understand the value of teaching good form and structure. I'm _not_ advocating a sloppy approach. Far from it. I believe _good form yields superior function_. What I object to is the almost ritualistic emphasis on form and detail to the point where it retards the development of _functional skill _and impedes productive experimentation.

And finally, the secrecy about "advanced" material drives me nuts. I go off to seminars and learn stuff only to be told not to show it to anyone of lower rank, and never, _never_ to people outside our association. These are complex, paired drills mind you, and since there's no longer anybody anywhere near my rank left in My organization in my entire state, I can never really practice, master, and utilize what I learn  ...if I actually follow the rules . 

So unless WC people can get out of their lineage and stylistic "bubbles" to experiment openly with other groups and individuals, both inside and outside of WC, the future for the art is not bright. 

Speaking of which, look me up if you ever come to Arizona!


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## Flying Crane (Aug 4, 2019)

geezer said:


> Thanks for the reply, Gerry. Based on what I've gleaned from your many comments over the years, I get the impression that you've dealt with virtually the same issues with your NGA organization. And, judging from the many arts you've had some experience in (as listed in your profile) you have exactly that openness and curiosity that I sometimes find lacking with my Wing Chun organization leadership.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A simple question:  why do you continue to belong to this organization?


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## geezer (Aug 4, 2019)

Rat said:


> The assumption is based on the bread and butter of boxing being for sport competition, the clubs that do actual boxing exist to put people into a boxing ring or teach them the skills of boxing, just because some do boxercise and not full on boxing doesn't mean they don't exist to teach boxing.



Well put. For a couple of years I rented space at a boxing gym like that. The owner/coach packed the place teaching "boxercise" to mostly women. He was in fact a very passionate and talented boxing coach. But his real lessons and sparring sessions were taught privately or to small groups "after hours" and on weekends. The "boxercise" classes paid the bills. In other words, pretty much like what "kiddy classes" are for some martial arts schools.

Oh, and I found that coming into the gym evenings to teach as 20 or more fit young women were finishing their class was always aesthetically pleasing.


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## geezer (Aug 4, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> A simple question:  why do you continue to belong to this organization?



_Why? _Mostly shared history. The guy that runs this organization has a very high level of skill. And, although more advanced than I, he is my si-dai (younger brother) in the same lineage, and we have a long history going back to the 1980s. Also, we both left a previous organization run by our original Chinese sifu when that situation became impossible. After that, for a few years he was very generous and supportive. Less so these days.

As the years have gone by, it's almost like the old, untenable authoritarian attitudes and unworkable business model of our original Chinese sifu have resurfaced ...minus the corruption and dishonesty of those earlier days. My friend and instructor is a religious man and scrupulously honest. That makes a big difference. Also, I'm a loyal guy. I tend to stick by my friends, ...maybe too long.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 4, 2019)

geezer said:


> _Why? _Mostly shared history. The guy that runs this organization has a very high level of skill. And, although more advanced than I, he is my si-dai (younger brother) in the same lineage, and we have a long history going back to the 1980s. Also, we both left a previous organization run by our original Chinese sifu when that situation became impossible. After that, for a few years he was very generous and supportive. Less so these days.
> 
> As the years have gone by, it's almost like the old, untenable authoritarian attitudes and unworkable business model of our original Chinese sifu have resurfaced ...minus the corruption and dishonesty of those earlier days. My friend and instructor is a religious man and scrupulously honest. That makes a big difference. Also, I'm a loyal guy. I tend to stick by my friends, ...maybe too long.


You can stick by your friends and be loyal to the shared history and your teachers and training partners and still do what you need to do to satisfy your needs with training.  And if your buddy can’t support you in that, then he ain’t your buddy.

Especially at your level and with your years of experience, there is NO REASON why you cannot go in your own direction and do what you need to do.  When an organization simply becomes a tool to control others, whether by design or unintentionally, then the organization is toxic.  I keep saying this: we all need to stand on our own feet and take control of our training for ourselves.  If all we do is follow orders, then we have learned nothing but how to follow and do as we are told.  Martial training should lead to useful tools that the individual can freely use in his own way.  A toxic organization gets in the way.  Becoming a student of a Sifu does not mean we live to obey for the rest of our lives.  Eventually we need to go on our own.

If a martial system is well designed, then it really is simply a form of physical education.  It teaches you a method of moving effectively and efficiently and with power. It teaches a body of techniques that function within that methodology, and it teaches some strategies for applying and using those techniques.  That is really all there is to it.

But this is skeletal.  It does not contain everything, because it can’t.  That is where the individual needs to step up and stand on his own two feet and figure out what he can do with it.  But the solutions are there if the methods are sound, as long as you feel you are free to apply the methods to fit whatever situation.

If you earn a degree in chemistry and then go to work as a chemist, you cannot expect your job to mirror what is in your text books.  Your text books teach you the theory and the methods, but your job has unique problems that you need to figure out how to solve.  You apply your education and you think outside the box.  And you graduate with your degree and you LEAVE THE COLLEGE so you can start your career.

The martial arts are the same.  The system, that which your teacher gives you, is the text book.  But it Is up to you to take your education and DO SOMETHING with it.   This is not an issue of the system being flawed, as long as the instruction has been good.  It is an issue of the individual needing to take ownership of what you have learned and what you want to do with it.  Your teacher may not be able to take you on that leg of the journey.  You need to walk that yourself and likely find like-minded training partners and students of your own.

You earned your degree years ago.  Why are you still hanging around your old college campus?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 4, 2019)

geezer said:


> Thanks for the reply, Gerry. Based on what I've gleaned from your many comments over the years, I get the impression that you've dealt with virtually the same issues with your NGA organization. And, judging from the many arts you've had some experience in (as listed in your profile) you have exactly that openness and curiosity that I sometimes find lacking with my Wing Chun organization leadership.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some thoughts from this post, not necessarily in any specific order...

I am a "tinkerer". I love to take a technique and examine bits and parts, try shifting slightly in one direction or another to see what works. Mostly, I don't think this level of tinkering is directly useful in fighting, but it does do two things. Firstly, it keeps me exploring, which keeps me training. Second, it does (eventually) yield some useful information about what makes a technique fail under certain circumstances. It's a slow method, and the marginal returns are small, but not non-existent. Anyway, my point is that beyond a point in a moderately traditional art, it's easily possible to spend too much time in this stuff, rather than trying to break stuff (meaning testing the skills against some resistance). I still think it's fun and beneficial...just not so much for fighting skill.

I also have a problem with material that's held to a high rank, even when it's not a secret. I'll use the nunchaku techniques taught in the NGAA as a prime example. They are taught after shodan (usually  7-10 years of training), and required for nidan. Nidan is the last technical rank (the last one that requires a test, under most circumstances), so folks learn it enough to get to nidan, then have trouble finding someone to train it with. Nobody after nidan needs this for testing, and mostly nobody below shodan has been exposed to it, so there's a lack of people to train it. Which means there are folks out there having to teach it who haven't had a partner to train it with in quite a long time. That's a recipe for bad technique. I ended up tossing all of that out (though I still love tinkering with nunchaku, and might add some bits back in someday), and replaced it with stick and staff work I'm more competent at (none of which is in the NGAA curriculum), and which I introduce much earlier. I actually changed it so that there's currently no new curriculum left after BB (and no ranks, either). I also encourage exposing students to bits and pieces early, and just helping them understand what pieces are for their next test, and which aren't.

Now for my big reveal: I seriously considered putting together something entirely new-ish, which nobody would recognize as NGA. I found it unnecessary. I like the traditional training methods, when they are paired with some that aren't so traditional (in my experience) to the art. With resistance, and not being a fanatic about things having to be "aiki" all the time, I find that my Aikido improved, and so did my fighting ability (as best we can assess it from good sparring). I wish I'd done more of that in my 30's.



> Speaking of which, look me up if you ever come to Arizona!


Absolutely, and if you ever wander out of the desert and find yourself out in NC, give a holler.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 4, 2019)

geezer said:


> Well put. For a couple of years I rented space at a boxing gym like that. The owner/coach packed the place teaching "boxercise" to mostly women. He was in fact a very passionate and talented boxing coach. But his real lessons and sparring sessions were taught privately or to small groups "after hours" and on weekends. The "boxercise" classes paid the bills. In other words, pretty much like what "kiddy classes" are for some martial arts schools.
> 
> Oh, and I found that coming into the gym evenings to teach as 20 or more fit young women were finishing their class was always aesthetically pleasing.


That's a little bit of what Billy Blanks did with Tae Bo, from what I've heard from our name-dropping friend here on MT (I'm looking at you, @Buka), though he kept running both the exercise and the full MA classes at the same place. If I could work out a good set of exercise routines based on what I teach, I'd offer exercise classes, too. Seems like a good way to serve a second audience with what you know.


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## Buka (Aug 4, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> That's a little bit of what Billy Blanks did with Tae Bo, from what I've heard from our name-dropping friend here on MT (I'm looking at you, @Buka), though he kept running both the exercise and the full MA classes at the same place. If I could work out a good set of exercise routines based on what I teach, I'd offer exercise classes, too. Seems like a good way to serve a second audience with what you know.






 

Did I ever tell you about the time a Zen Master told me to "_do the opposite of what I tell you_" so I didn't?


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## geezer (Aug 4, 2019)

So, for those of you who practice or follow Wing Chun, who are some of the instructors who you see doing it right or moving the art forward in a positive way? Going by their youtube contributions (since they live in other continents) I have been interested in the contributions of Alan Orr and Mark Philips.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 4, 2019)

geezer said:


> So, for those of you who practice or follow Wing Chun, who are some of the instructors who you see doing it right or moving the art forward in a positive way? Going by their youtube contributions (since they live in other continents) I have been interested in the contributions of Alan Orr and Mark Philips.


What is Geezer doing to move his training in a direction that he feels is appropriate and necessary?  Never mind what anyone else is doing.  You can’t assume or look to other people to do what you feel needs to be done.  Their needs are not your needs.

So what is Geezer doing about it?


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## geezer (Aug 4, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> ...So what is Geezer doing about it?



Griping.

...isn't that enough?


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## geezer (Aug 4, 2019)

OK, seriously now, I didn't intend for this thread to be about me. It's supposed to be about where we'd like to see the art go from here on forward. Who is moving it in a positive direction, and so forth.

Maybe it would be better if we broke it down into separate sub-topics each leading to a thread focused on that subject. Things like, say, how do _you_ try to inject realism and resistance into your training? 

Or, how do you approach sparring? What about WC's overall vulnerability against grappling and ground-fighting? Is it better to teach an abbreviated "anti-grappling" curriculum, or send your students to a good BJJ coach or other grappling instructor? ...or some kind of combination of both? .

..and importantly, not starting these discussions from a critical, MMA fanboy perspective, but from a WC perspective-- i.e. addressing what is best for our art. Like ShortBridge said earlier, we know that some of the usual suspects will probably show up and try to derail the thread and just try to trash WC and TMAs in general. Well, I can handle that if we can balance out the discussion with positive, constructive input.

And at the least it beats a dormant and dying forum, right?


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## Flying Crane (Aug 4, 2019)

geezer said:


> OK, seriously now, I didn't intend for this thread to be about me. It's supposed to be about where we'd like to see the art go from here on forward. Who is moving it in a positive direction, and so forth.


I know, but sometimes we need to find the answers ourselves.  Looking for someone else to show us the way isn’t always an option.

How long have you been training Wing Chun?  Over 50 years?  You ought to have the experience and the skills and the knowledge to find the answers within there.  It’s ok to look at what others are doing, as examples and ideas.  But you need to create your own solutions.  If you cannot do that after more than 50 years, I need to ask why that is?  Why do you doubt your capabilities?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 4, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Because people see one thing and generalize it. People see a boxing or MMA match, and think if they get hit they'll be bloody and bruised. I've been hit many times, and while I've had a few bruises, most weren't noticeable (except to me) and rarely was there any blood.
> 
> But people with no experience don't know that.


Trying to learn how to swim without getting your body wet is impossible. I truly don't know how can anybody be able to learn MA without getting hit.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 4, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I find these conclusions from these kinds of drills questionable, John. It could mean the other guy isn't very good (so you don't need much skill). Or it could mean they aren't really trying - which happens a lot, in my experience, when there's a semi-cooperative drill like this.


When you meet a

- boxer, you ask him to throw 20 punches at you and see if you can block all his punches.
- wrestler, you ask him to try to take you down for 1 minute and see if you can remain standing.

Since you will only play defense, I'm sure any stranger will love to help you to test your skill.

If you and I will meet someday, I'm pretty sure that you don't mind to help me to test my defense skill.

Better than that, if I tell you that if you

- can punch me within 20 punches, I'll pay you $20.
- can't punch me within 20 punches, I'll only pay you $10,

will you try very hard to punch me?

There is always a way to simulate the game as close to the real fight as possible.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 4, 2019)

Q: What does MA system X need in the 21 century?
A: The MA system X need a realistic method to develop the combat skill.

In the CMA history, there were twice that CMA masters tried to change the CMA to meet the military need.

- General Yue Fei in Song dynasty.
- General Ma Lian in 20 century.

Both tried to eliminate forms and worked only on fighting skill (since soldiers won't have time to train MA form).

IMO, there is always a better way to develop the combat skill.


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## geezer (Aug 4, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> How long have you been training Wing Chun?  Over 50 years?


No... _not so very long as that! _Maybe a combined total of 24 or 25 years.

I started WC in 1979, when WC was this super secret fighting system from behind the "Bamboo Curtain". I changed lineages in 1980 and trained sort of sporadically for about 12 years, stopping all martial arts training in the early 90s, even my escrima which I've always loved.

So I pretty much missed UFC 1 and the whole revolution caused by BJJ and MMA, coming back to re-start escrima first, and then WC in late 2007...the same year I joined MartialTalk.  ...Anyway learning about BJJ, MMA and the inefficiencies and vulnerabilities they exposed in our traditional, and overly compliant training methods was one thing I had to contend with. And, after the brief surge in interest associated with the Yip Man movies, recruiting students became tougher every year. I believe people look at TMA differently. There's less respect now. It's more like _something for kids._

At about the same time ...say around 2011 my kung fu brother who ran the local club, moved out of state and later "retired". So I took over the local group and was forced back into a "sifu" role. Well, being an assistant instructor is great. But being a sifu is _a pain_. You have to keep the school running, and it's a lot harder to just find time to _learn, _to cross-train, and to do your own thing.

Again, it's been a lonely journey and altogether another dozen years have passed since I returned to the study of WC. I still enjoy doing WC, but now again I find myself questioning just how important it is to me to do all it takes to keep my lineage alive here in AZ.  I'd be glad to pass the baton, so to speak, but all the students in the area that made instructor level (either under me or my predecessor) have dropped out. So it's still on me. At 64 I'm way past the age where this is physically easy, and life is short, ya know...


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## Danny T (Aug 4, 2019)

1. Spar. Not Chi Sao but actually spar.
2. Don’t just accept that your training is good, pressure test it against non compliant partners as your skills increase.
3. Spar (respectfully) against other type of martial artists.
4. Experience other training methods 
5. Be open minded and honest with yourself on your training and your skills.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 4, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Trying to learn how to swim without getting your body wet is impossible. I truly don't know how can anybody be able to learn MA without getting hit.


I don't think they can, either. But they don't have to get hit hard, repeatedly, which is what they think will happen. A lot of folks seem to think it's an all-or-nothing proposition.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 4, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you meet a
> 
> - boxer, you ask him to throw 20 punches at you and see if you can block all his punches.
> - wrestler, you ask him to try to take you down for 1 minute and see if you can remain standing.
> ...


With strangers, it might work. With classmates, there's a process that happens that somehow creates a habit of not really trying. I see it in NGA when people are practicing defenses against specific attacks. Those attacks are rarely with any intent, unless the instructor helps folks learn to do them with intent. I've seen blown blocks against punches that still didn't land. I've seen people pushed without being moved (and it wasn't because they were rooted - the push just died when the defense didn't materialize).

Somehow, this tends to happen less when the interaction it two-sided (both are attacking and defending). I've no idea why.


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## Buka (Aug 4, 2019)

Danny T said:


> 1. Spar. Not Chi Sao but actually spar.
> 2. Don’t just accept that your training is good, pressure test it against non compliant partners as your skills increase.
> 3. Spar (respectfully) against other type of martial artists.
> 4. Experience other training methods
> 5. Be open minded and honest with yourself on your training and your skills.



I wish there was a  Like, Thanks, Agree, and Carve in Stone button function here.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 4, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> With strangers, it might work. With classmates, there's a process that happens that somehow creates a habit of not really trying. I see it in NGA when people are practicing defenses against specific attacks. Those attacks are rarely with any intent, unless the instructor helps folks learn to do them with intent. I've seen blown blocks against punches that still didn't land. I've seen people pushed without being moved (and it wasn't because they were rooted - the push just died when the defense didn't materialize).
> 
> Somehow, this tends to happen less when the interaction it two-sided (both are attacking and defending). I've no idea why.


When I test with my students (we do this in every class),

- I punch and they block. When I punch, I try as hard as I can to hit them.
- My student punches and I block. When my student punches, I'm not sure my student tries as hard as he can to hit me (may be because I'm the teacher).

But when 2 students test, I don't think they should have any reason not to go full force and full speed. After all, a punch is just a punch. You can only punch so hard, and you can only punch so fast.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 4, 2019)

geezer said:


> No... _not so very long as that! _Maybe a combined total of 24 or 25 years.
> 
> I started WC in 1979, when WC was this super secret fighting system from behind the "Bamboo Curtain". I changed lineages in 1980 and trained sort of sporadically for about 12 years, stopping all martial arts training in the early 90s, even my escrima which I've always loved.
> 
> ...


Don’t worry about keeping the lineage alive.  Just train in the best way you know how, and don’t hesitate to get creative with your drills and training methods.  If it is still based on the wing Chun foundation then it is still wing Chun, even if the drills and such are new and never been done before by anyone.  People think they need to never change anything, and I say that’s nonsense.  You need to train to the best that you know how, and to the best that you can figure out.  That means being creative.  So develop some drills and exercises aimed at strengthening skill sets that you perceive as weak.

So instead of worrying about keeping the lineage alive, just keep doing whatever it is that makes sense to you.  This is YOUR wing Chun and that’s is all it needs to be.  Whether that ends up being bigger or smaller as a curriculum or method than what you learned from your Sifu.  

I keep saying: none of this stuff was handed down by the gods.  None of it is divine or perfect or sacred.  It was created by people, over several generations.  Changes were made along the way, some for the better, some for the worse.  There is no reason you cannot be part of that process.

Take it and make it yours.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 4, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I keep saying: none of this stuff was handed down by the gods. None of it is divine or perfect or sacred. It was created by people, over several generations. Changes were made along the way, some for the better, some for the worse. There is no reason you cannot be part of that process.
> 
> Take it and make it yours.


Man, that is extremely well said.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 4, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Man, that is extremely well said.


Why thank you sir!


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 6, 2019)

MetalBoar said:


> *"I don’t want to get hit; is this a contact workout?*
> No—not ever! Each person in class has their own heavy bag to workout on, plus their own space to move around the bag. Trust us, you won’t even realize anyone else is in the class because you’ll be so focused on the workout! And, rest easy, we never allow sparring or fighting at ****** Boxing Club"
> 
> The other boxing club only did sparring something like once a week (they're schedule is broken on their web page right now so I can't refresh my memory) and it was a night I couldn't make it so I lost interest. Both of them seem like they're focused on the brogrammer looking for a fun workout, not on people who are interested in actually boxing.
> ...



I am not disagreeing and the schools and folks I am going to reference are not running big commercial schools, as a matter of fact one teaches for free and the other tells me if it wasn't for his other business the Wing Chun school would have closed long ago, 

There are still Wing Chun folks that pretty much except the fact that you are gong to get hit., actually they will tell you it is about striking so you "WILL" get hit...a lot. The official school I went to briefly, if you were doing Chi Sau, ,and you messed up, you were going to get hit, mess up in an application and you were going to get hit. Walk though the guan door....you were going to get hit....doubly so if you worked with the sifu

I also use to train with a bunch of guys who had been in Wing Chun for years...and....you got hit.... I got hit in the eye there leading to a detached retina. The guy who runs the school for free was talking about hitting... how to hit, why to hit, when to hit, and hitting. 

Although you are very correct, IMO, about those trying to make a living at this and those going to the "Big Box Wing Chun School" and not wanting to get hit all the while certain this is how you develop Donnie Yen's Yip Man movie skill..... there are still a few left that actually train Wing Chun


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## Martial D (Aug 6, 2019)

geezer said:


> What does Wing Chun need? The traditonal answer is _nothing. The old way is best! _Proper Wing Chun as taught by _my sifu_ (insert name here) is a complete system. People just need to have faith, believe in what their sifu tells them, and humbly train harder to do things _correctly. _Only then will they acheive the unmatched skills of our Wing Chun ancestors!
> 
> ...Also the earth was created 6,000 years ago, is flat, and all you have to do is sincerely _believe_ in (insert religious belief system here) ...and trust me , all will be hunky dory.
> 
> ...


To answer this another way;


Nothing.

Nothing that doesn't come naturally through training.

The question is then; what is the objective?

If it is to preserve the style, then the training is fine.

If the objective is practicality for fighting/competition, then the training must reflect that.

That being, a focus on athleticism, making the drills live with full resistance, sparring rounds, and a willingness to accept and adapt to the results of your drilling and testing.

That's really it.

This is something I have specifically been focused on for years now.

Oddly enough(or totally expectedly) as my understanding of/feel for range and distance improve, I am able to work more of the classical stuff in. On Saturday I did three rounds using only classical wc. Even kept up the man/Wu and the triangle footwork the whole time. Yes, my legs are still sore, but I actually did ok-ish.


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## Danny T (Aug 6, 2019)

We are training in or teaching a martial art. It's not a cult, it's a physical activity, It's not magic, it's not beyond the realm of physics or super natural. It's a human physical activity with some specific methods to develop particular physical attributes. Other martial methods do some very similar things while some others; not so much. Those who accept it is a physical thing and not mystical or magical will become better against others who are physically attempting to take your head off. The others don't fare so well.


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## Saheim (Aug 11, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> I dunno. you actually attended any classes yet to base that assumption off? Because from my experience in doing actual classes very few care about sport competitions even the people in jiu jitsu or boxing clubs most are just for learning and exercise not competing



Guess we never ended up in the same class because I do care what happens in a ring, in regards to who is training how and how it worked out for them, even tho I have no intention of competing.  Not in a sporting environment, at least.  Unfortunately, there is an inherent risk of violence in most of the jobs I work.  I am not one of the people who think MMA is the ruler by which all arts should be checked for effectiveness BUT I do believe that YES an MMA match is a pretty close replica of (survival) fighting.  In all forms of training, there will always be some "artificiality".  However, it is minimized in full contact MMA.  I think it the people who say it is not an actual fight, because no eye gouging (or other "deadly" techniques) are allowed, are pretty silly.  I can accept the fact that a guy who could stomp me stupid, in the ring, stands a pretty good chance of doing it if we said "ok, now lets try it with no gear and NO rules"  Im guessing he could probably figure out how to poke me in the eye, instead of throw the jab that he landed over and over lol.

As for "adding" things to WC, I consider that more of a personal choice than a curriculum thing.  Basically, train WC as WC and the individual can go pick up extra training, from other places, to augment his skillset where he feels he needs to.  Not a believer in "complete" systems and think trying to create One Stop Shopping can actually limit an art because it is no longer apecialispe in any particular area.  Basically, eventually everything just becomes MMA.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 13, 2019)

Danny T said:


> 1. Spar. Not Chi Sao but actually spar.
> 2. Don’t just accept that your training is good, pressure test it against non compliant partners as your skills increase.
> 3. Spar (respectfully) against other type of martial artists.
> 4. Experience other training methods
> 5. Be open minded and honest with yourself on your training and your skills.


I'm a WC novice, so I wouldn't presume to dictate what Wing Chun "needs" to do. However the advice above from Danny is IMO apropos for any art which purports to teach fighting skills.

I will add one thought. I've heard the argument in WC (and other arts, particularly CMAs) that student should wait to spar until they have spent a substantial time drilling the forms and techniques of the arts. The reasoning is that until the student has done this enough to internalize the form and body dynamics of the style, then when they spar their technique will fall apart and they will just be practicing sloppy kickboxing.

I  understand the thinking behind this idea, but I don't think it holds up well. Consider arts which dump students into sparring early on (boxing. Muay Thai, BJJ, MMA). What happens when those students start sparring initially? The same thing as in other arts. For most students, the technique they have learned falls apart under pressure and their body mechanics just suck. That's fine. It's part of the process. The sparring is feedback. As students start to better approximate the technique and mechanics they have been taught, they get better results (they get hit/thrown/choked/etc less while succeeding on their own attempts to execute moves). This reinforces proper technique more effectively than just repetitive drilling.

Furthermore, sparring with more skilled practitioners helps the student feel the effectiveness of proper technique. It's one thing to tell a student to "relax" when performing a technique. Most of the time they don't even know what that would feel like. It's another thing to let them feel how your relaxed technique can overcome their attempts to use brute force. In my experience, that tends to sink in a lot more.

When practitioners of an art have to wait until they have drilled the form of an art for years before starting to spar, a couple of things happen. First, they still have to go through the process of acclimating to the psychological and physical pressure of sparring without having their technique fall apart. Secondly, they end up only working against someone else who is using the same type of movement. In contrast, when a school allows sparring early on the practitioners gain experience in dealing with sparring partners who haven't learned the "correct" way of moving yet. This way they learn to deal with a wide variety of more instinctive attacks and defenses. This should lead to a more robust skill set.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 13, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> student should wait to spar until they have spent a substantial time drilling the forms and techniques of the arts.


Since I don't teach any form, I don't use this approach. This way I have freedom to teach any fighting technique from any MA system that I like to.

I will just teach several drills such as:

- jab, cross, hook,
- hay-maker, back fist, uppercut.
- groin kick, face punch.
- roundhouse kick, side kick.
- foot sweep, leading arm jam, face punch.
- ...

Students can then start to spar after that.

I told my students that one day when they get old, if they want to learn forms, I can teach them as many forms as they may wish to learn. But when they are still young, they need to accumulate as much fighting experience as they can. I know that I don't belong to the main stream and I don't expect most people to agree with my approach.

Here is a drill (one plays offense, another plays defense) that we train. What MA style do you call this? I don't even know how to call it myself.


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## Danny T (Aug 13, 2019)

My Sifu who grew up and trained in Hong Kong says they didn't spar. Lots of drills, lots of chi sao, lots of drilling movement and positioning, lots of playing and having fun. BUT...though they didn't spar, what they did do was Fight!. Almost every week...there were gangs. Lots of gangs and there were a lot of fights. Somethings they lost and they went back and worked on what they had learned from the fight. He says that's the difference in how they trained then and what people do today. The element that is missing today is the actual pressure testing in a life format. 

For them it was fighting, if you aren't fighting then you need to spar it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 13, 2019)

During my high school long fist informal class year in Taiwan, after the class and after the teacher had left, we usually drew a small circle on the ground. We sparred inside that circle. Anybody who moved outside of that circle would lose. Sometime we drew that circle so small that 1 backward step could be out. One valuable lesson that I had learned from that kind of sparring was no matter how hard the attack might be, I would never move back even 1 inch.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> During my high school long fist informal class year in Taiwan, after the class and after the teacher had left, we usually drew a small circle on the ground. We sparred inside that circle. Anybody who moved outside of that circle would lose. Sometime we drew that circle so small that 1 backward step could be out. One valuable lesson that I had learned from that kind of sparring was no matter how hard the attack might be, I would never move back even 1 inch.


Why never?


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## Martial D (Aug 14, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> During my high school long fist informal class year in Taiwan, after the class and after the teacher had left, we usually drew a small circle on the ground. We sparred inside that circle. Anybody who moved outside of that circle would lose. Sometime we drew that circle so small that 1 backward step could be out. One valuable lesson that I had learned from that kind of sparring was no matter how hard the attack might be, I would never move back even 1 inch.


While I can see the value in that for certain situations (stuck Ina small tight area), movement is also a valuable tool for both attack and defense. You need to move out to move in, and ALWAYS being in the pocket is dangerous.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2019)

Martial D said:


> While I can see the value in that for certain situations (stuck Ina small tight area), movement is also a valuable tool for both attack and defense. You need to move out to move in, and ALWAYS being in the pocket is dangerous.


Agreed. The drill sounds useful for learning HOW to stay in tight and not give up space (something many people struggle with), but I wouldn't want that to be the only option. We used a similar drill in some defensive exercises, and it's interesting how hard it is at first.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 14, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Why never?


Develop the courage to stand on the ground ang not back up.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Develop the courage to stand on the ground ang not back up.


Okay, but why never? I think it's good to have drills (even extended periods of training over time) where you focus on not giving up even an inch. But there are useful strategies employing a step back that draw people in, create space, and/or set up techniques.


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## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 16, 2019)

I guess, I am just to old school. The first thing I tell people that want to train under me..."You will be hit, if that is an issue, there are several schools in area".

We don't use gloves or footpads. Mouthguard and cup...and that is required for promise fights.

Could be the reason, I only have two students.


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## Martial D (Aug 16, 2019)

Guthrie said:


> I guess, I am just to old school. The first thing I tell people that want to train under me..."You will be hit, if that is an issue, there are several schools in area".
> 
> We don't use gloves or footpads. Mouthguard and cup...and that is required for promise fights.
> 
> Could be the reason, I only have two students.


If you aren't getting hit sometimes, you aren't training to fight. People underestimate the (imo super important) importance of being able to take a hit without panicking.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 16, 2019)

Martial D said:


> If you aren't getting hit sometimes, you aren't training to fight. People underestimate the (imo super important) importance of being able to take a hit without panicking.


Man, I wish I could agree with that twice.


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## Buka (Aug 16, 2019)

Martial D said:


> If you aren't getting hit sometimes, you aren't training to fight. People underestimate the (imo super important) importance of being able to take a hit without panicking.



You mean like actual contact? Like fighters do on the telly-vision?

Nooooooooooooooo!


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## geezer (Aug 17, 2019)

I spent a couple of hours this morning at a park with a visiting sifu from the Duncan Leung Lineage. He was here teaching a former student of mine (that had previous experience in both lineages). People may wonder how I'd keep contact with a student that (gasp!) went back to studying his previous lineage. Why not? He still does Escrima with me, and when we occasionally do some WC together, he shares his perspective, which in turn broadens my outlook as well. Just don't tell anyone in _my_ association, right? 

Anyway, I had a great time meeting his other instructor and had a chance to discuss a lot of things we do the same ...and a lot that we do differently. But even so, conceptually his stuff made sense. Especially when you factor in context.  Personally, I _like_ seeing different solutions to a problem. And, if I ever do use any of their stuff, you bet I'll give them credit for it. _I just wish more people would open up and share like that. _ 

That's a big thing that WC needs more of in these times.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2019)

geezer said:


> I spent a couple of hours this morning at a park with a visiting sifu from the Duncan Leung Lineage. He was here teaching a former student of mine (that had previous experience in both lineages). People may wonder how I'd keep contact with a student that (gasp!) went back to studying his previous lineage. Why not? He still does Escrima with me, and when we occasionally do some WC together, he shares his perspective, which in turn broadens my outlook as well. Just don't tell anyone in _my_ association, right?
> 
> Anyway, I had a great time meeting his other instructor and had a chance to discuss a lot of things we do the same ...and a lot that we do differently. But even so, conceptually his stuff made sense. Especially when you factor in context.  Personally, I _like_ seeing different solutions to a problem. And, if I ever do use any of their stuff, you bet I'll give them credit for it. _I just wish more people would open up and share like that. _
> 
> That's a big thing that WC needs more of in these times.


From what I've seen from forum discussions, there's a lot of insularity in WC, between lineages/branches. With some folks saying "ours is the real one", there's no room in their minds for finding something useful from someone else (probably not even within their own branch!). A few folks in WC honestly exploring the boundaries of the art and seeing what it can (and cannot) do, combined with more open minds within the art, will go a long way. More friendly debates and even friendly arguments.

Personally, I don't really understand the touchiness. I've seen it within my own primary art, even between branches within the same organization (though at least there, there was still sharing of ideas - just complete disagreement about what was "right"). I had a Jujutsu student (not instructor) from Germany visit my program for a few weeks a year or two ago, and I had her share some of what they do. I think it's good exposure for students and instructors, alike.


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## snake_monkey (Aug 18, 2019)

WC...it's hard to compare person to person. Traditionally, I believe WC has trained and trains good fighters to this day (Largely depending on the skill of the teacher and the connection to their lineage, without going into lineage sources). Certain people take it and do more with it, and that's great. I am a performer which I show on my Youtube channel, but also a potential contender in the ring (to an extent). I have a few clips from light sparring to show, but no recent bouts or footage. Really, I just love the Kung fu! (would be open to suggestions for sparring or competitions locally)


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## Poppity (Aug 20, 2019)

"Traditional wing chun" lotsa people bandy about the term and i guess it all means different things to different folk. People outside the Ip Man lineage rarely consider the HK versions of Ip Man wing chun traditional, but some within that lineage do, and unsuprisingly they are usually the ones saying traditional wing chun doesn't work.


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## Yoshiyahu (Aug 24, 2019)

Interesting, Wing Chun is a complete STAND UP Fighting system. If you do the following!
1. Train Solo atleast 30 minutes five days a week. EVERY WEEK.
2. Do chi Sau and San Shou with a partner once or twice a week. 
3. Try to Light spar a few times a week, An do hard sparring a few times a month with NON-Wing Chun fighters.

Key is to find people who fight non-traditional martial arts. with the exception of boxing, muay thai and mma. Find those people to spar with, an use your mind to figure out what worked and what didn't work and why. This will greatly grow your art.

The Only thing WC is truly missing is Ground fighting. I suggest learning BJJ or American Wrestling and adding their conditioning to your regime. Outside of that Wing chun has punches, Joint Locks(Chin-Na), Kicks, Trapping hands, Deflections, and wazoo of other elements. Not not all WC is the same. So i suggest adding conditioning training to your wing chun if you find you have none.


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