# Taking the Linux Plunge



## Bob Hubbard

Ok.... I Surrender. 

I'm in the middle of a conversion to Linux.  So far, So good. 

I'm using a spare Athlon 750, and installing RedHat 9.  Mostly smooth, once I realized I had the firewall on too tight to let me do anything.  heh.

Anyone else running Linux?


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## KenpoTess

I ran it for awhile. .Had a dual  Os on my old puter before lightning took it's life ... It was quite the OS for sure.. ~!

We have a friend who's totally die-hard Linux ..  said .. almost impossible to crash.. well  Seig found that something to do.. Yeah.. he crashed it ~! Hahaa.. 

It's got some great games on It.. ~!

Enjoy Bob~!!

if ya need any help.. remember. Tim Bogart is his name


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## don bohrer

Not yet guys but next year, I think? HQ doles out what they see fit so. We have a server running Novell, and they charge too much for licensing. Anyway it'll be a new experience for me.


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## pknox

Kaith:

Good luck...I've heard it is an excellent, almost bullet proof system.  be warned though - supposedly RedHat makes an easier product to understand than Debian or Slackware, but they still mail you a black belt if you can get the printer working in less than a month.


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## arnisador

I wanted to do it but never found the time...to allow for the possibility of my computer being completely fubared for a few weeks by my trying to install a dual boot Windows/Linux system.


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## Bob Hubbard

I'm using my backup PC.    Right now, I'm watching "Spirited Away" DVD on it.   1st time I've managed to get sound to work since I've been playing with Linux the last few years.  This time, I'm trying to go full speed with it as a primary workstation and test-bed for web work.

 I'll tackle the printer tomorow


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## arnisador

Sound is out on mine, but I'm not going to try to fix it right now because--once again--I can't afford to be without it if something gets screwed up!


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## Jay Bell

MANDRAKE  

And don't forget folks...LINUX FOR PDA'S!

Oh...here's a new commercial IBM did for Linux:

The Future is Open 

IBM is really moving forward with Linux.  They have put $1 billion in R n' D this year alone.  One out of every four eServers they built last year had Linux pre-installed.

We are coming.

Run.  

Honestly...imo, the only serious thing holding Linux at bay is they don't have a *really* solid mail server like Exchange.  If someone would make a really versatile server like that for Linux...the sky's the limit.


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## Bob Hubbard

I've actually purchased (at retail) Mandrake 3x and SUSE twice.  I went with RedHat this time simply becuase our web server is running it, and I'm basically cloning the server inhouse.

I liked Mandrake the best flavor wise.


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## Elfan

I'm a duel booting communist on both my computers (Redhat and Mandrake).  I've been using the Mandrake one  a lot lately to do work when I'm to lazy to go to the Unix (Solaris 9) lab on campus.


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## michaeledward

Serveral years ago now, I really wanted to see if Linux was all it is cracked up to be. I got a copy of the Caldera OpenLinux Base (the reference guide is copyrighted in 1996) system. I was trying to get the OS installed on an old Gateway 486 50 MHz. 

My hard drive was too small to install everything that came with the package, so I had to select the individual components to install. Of course, not knowing anything about Linux, it was very difficult to figure out which packages to put on the system and which not to put on the system. It was ugly. I did finally get the OS installed and the keyboard drivers and the mouse drivers. 

I could never get the modem drivers to work, so I couldn't get to the web, where all the 'HELP' files were stored.

I never managed to get a GUI interface working ... on several attempts, I could SEE the GUI, but once I clicked an ICON ... nothing would happen.

I worked with the system for about 2 months. I managed to play a couple of games of 'TANK' ... you know the one with the Green Triangles representing mountians. I figured that was enough of a success so that I could get rid of Linux.

I'm sure the OS has come a long way in the intervening years, but I don't think I want to take that much self inflicted abuse again. Good Luck to you.

Win2K is cool ---- Mike


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## Elfan

In my opinion the more user friendly commercial distros are now just as easy to install as MS Windows.

Caldera OpenLinux doesn't have a particularly good reputaiton, especially now.


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## satans.barber

I used to use Mandrake full time until a couple of months ago, but I got a bit sick of re-booting to play Games, so I'm back in XP now.

I do have a Debian GPS though that handles my mail, databases, Apache and things like that, she doesn't give me much trouble 

ian@alice:~$ uptime
 13:22:27 up 31 days, 12:41,  1 user,  load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00

Ian.


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## Elfan

So did you find WINE and such insufficent for what you wanted to do with games?


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## satans.barber

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *So did you find WINE and such insufficent for what you wanted to do with games? *



Yes, I never managed to get WINE to run even small apps properly, as soon as it tried to anything even remotely complicated it fell over straight away. Don't have a lot of faith in it to be honest.

Ian.


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## Bob Hubbard

Havent tried the WINE thing yet...

So far:
I cant edit images on it as Photoshop dont work in Linux
Do web pages?  No DreamWeaver
3D animation?  No Lightwave
Bookkeeping?  No QuickBooks. 

However, most of my day-to-day stuff I'm doing on there, so tis good.

I'll be trying to get the rest to work later and finding replacements as I can.  I know its out there, its a matter of finding and learning.


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## fist of fury

Currently Running RedHat 8 on my main pc. I'm no Linux guru but with XP's new anti piracy tactics I find my self prefering to use a system where I don't have to justify why I need to replace my hardware or reload because the crappy OS crashed on me.

As for the photoshop have you tried out The Gimp?


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## Bob Hubbard

Tried it a while back.  Its close, but different enough that it'll take me a while to really figure it out.

Right now, I'm trying to figure out why it doen't like my DVD player...says the systems too slow (750mhz athlon with a GB of ram).    Probably a setting on the drive connection somewhere.


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## fist of fury

I had that problem with my laptop I usually got that message when I used mplayer but not with Xine. I'm not sure about RH9 but with 8 because of the liscene issue there was no official DVD decoders but since that ban has been lifted I expect DVD support to improve.


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## Bob Hubbard

I'm using mplayer....

I'll try Xine.  Thanks!


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## Cthulhu

Buddy of mine is running the Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy demo through WineX on Slackware.

He's recently completely migrated to Linux, after dual booting for a while.

He may still have articles up from his switch on his site:

www.thehaus.net

Click on the 'Alternate OS' link or run a search for Linux in the search field.


Cthulhu


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## satans.barber

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> I cant edit images on it as Photoshop dont work in Linux



GIMP does most of the same stuff, it's not hard to learn 



> Do web pages?  No DreamWeaver



If you're good enough to run Linux, you should be doing them by hand! 

$ gvim



> 3D animation?  No Lightwave



Blender, Maya...



> Bookkeeping?  No QuickBooks.



Gnucash.

Ian.


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## Bob Hubbard

ok, reinstall #1

I tried installing apache with php and -every- time it gave me grief.
The best part is, every time it was a different error message.... even though each time I was doing a cut n paste from the instructions.

Eventually, gcc started giving me some 'cant find' errors.  

Redhat installs Apache 2, and MySQL 3

I need Apache 1.28 and MySQL 4

I tried installing from RPM, and the GNOME package manager just sat there.  

I managed to get MYSQL 4 installed from source b4 gcc broke, however I couldn't get the damn thing to stay running...or if it was, to show up under running services. >_<;;;

oh, and all the docs seem to assume that you know exactly where every file already is.  I haven't even found the bloody graphical file manager yet....I know there -was- one, cuz I used it under an earlier version of RH. >_<

The frustration level is quite high.
:soapbox:


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## satans.barber

Try Mandrake 9.1 instead, I think it's nicer. Comes with a suite of nice config tools that Red Hat doesn't have.

If you want to use a graphical file manager try either Konqueror or Galeon.

Ian.


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## Bob Hubbard

Sadly, it has to be RedHat.  

Now on Reinstall #3 as the stupid thing wouldn't uninstall software...kept yelling that it couldnt uninstall because it couldn't find all the parts.   sheesh..... am now doing a bare bones install, and will add things as I need them....  this is pathetic.

>_<

I'll try Konqueror.  I just found it..we'll see if it shows up when this reinstall is done.  sheesh........


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## arnisador

When you come for the seminar I'll have you do mine since you'll be an expert!


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## Bob Hubbard

Yeah..I'll be the bald guy......

This has been the normal cycle.... I get it so far, and then try to -do- something with it and it goes to hell fast.  I've gotten it farther than previously, and the average home user isn't gonna want to install a web development enviroment, but some of this stuffs nuts.

Ok....DVD's....   This system screamed under Win 98...runs good under Win2k.  Under RH, it stutters, sputters n otherwise hiccups.  I -finally- found all the particular settings to get it smoothed out, but it took a day.  I had to download and compile various bits to get everything smoothed out.  The average home user doesn't have this level of patience.  XINE worked great, once I found all the bits and installed LIBDVDCSS.

The version of XMMS that comes with RH has MP3 support removed.  I had to track down the source, recompile, and reenable MP3 support.  This was not that easy as I kept getting 'newer version already installed' errors.  

Once I got the firewall rules straight, web and email worked fine.  This was a quick fix, as the 'dummies' book was straight forward on how to set this all up.

The install process is nice and smooth, and provided you have a little idea on what everything is, goes quickly and efficiently.

I've had no problem with accessing any of my business or personal files, with the previously mentioned QuickBooks issue.


I'm either going to beat this beast, or I'm gonna use the PC for target practice.  >_<


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## Bob Hubbard

Reinstall #4.

I tried to compile software...it said GCC wasn't installed...
Ok, so I goto the Add/Remove thing... it insists on installing a block of stuff..ok, no problem..

Wait...it cant find Kerobos and OpenSSL development tools....
neither can I.  I dont -want- them.   But the stupid FN thing won't continue.... so I hunt down RPMs for Kerobos...but -that- wont install until I track down something else...I do that, and -it- wants something else....

Needless to say....I'm now more than a tad pissed off.

The -biggest- pain in the *** here is that -every- bloody time I reinstall, I have to loginto RedHats site, unsubscribe and then resubscribe so I can get updates.  I think out of all the headaches, this is one of the ones most annoying. >_<

So, systems wiped and just finished clean install #4.

back to the fight.... >_<


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## arnisador

Quit while you're behind!

Seriously, is this for an actual purpose or are you just experimenting?

At this point I gather it's a mountain that must be climbed because it's there--you're not going to let Linus Torvalds beat you!


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## Bob Hubbard

actual purpose.

1- inhouse developmental system 

2- migrate away from windoze

p until I hit this series of PITA snags, it was going smoothly...mostly.


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## satans.barber

Why does it *have* to be red hat?

I've never had any of this crap with Mandrake, you can just tell it to install everything possible (~2Gb), do it by group selection or select individual packages.

You'll get Apache 2 (why would you want to run an old version of Apache? Unless it's not going anywhere near the Net, that's stupid...), MySQL 4, all the dev and compilation tools you need and everything.

Linux is a power users OS, you need some skill and patience to isolate and fix problems. *This isn't Windows, repeatedly re-installing is not the answer to your problems!*

Ian


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## Bob Hubbard

Because the server that MartialTalk (and my other clients) are on is a redhat system.  Running Apache 1.3.28, PHP , and MYSQL 4.0.15.

Plus, I'm stubborn.   Also, I dont want it to install everything, as some of it I just don't want on here...I don't require a dns server or nis server for example.

The problem here is, all I wanted to do was install apache, compiled with php support and mysql support.

following the instructions verbatum repeatedly gave different results.

Apache said 'copy the binary to your apache directory'.  Yet, never said -what- the binary was called, where it was to be found, nor where to put it.  I looked and found apache files in -3- different places, and none of em seemed 'right'.  Finally figured out there was a conflict between the AP2.0 that RH installs, and the AP 1.3 I installed... I -think- when I deleted files I ripped out gcc files.  (Yes, I know I'm probably doing it wrong...but the package manager refused to uninstall until I could tell it where some file was...yet never seemed to tell me how to tell it or where it was getting its info from)

I've found that the RPM interfaces I used previously aren't installed or if they are, easily found for a novice.  I much prefered the ones on Mandrake and SUSE.

It drove me nuts when all I wanted was GCC, yet when I went to install it, it asked for another file, which asked for another file which asked for yet another file.

I'm a novice to this side of things, and am wearing my patience out.... its frustrating that on this RPM you just click and install, yet on this other one, clicking does nothing..you need to discover the magic commandline flags to install it right...and no where can I find them on the site I obtained the rpm file.

I'll get it eventually....but, considering that Win95 had an easier add/remove setup, its really frustrating.

So far, I think I've gotten things back to where it was before I started ripping out chunks of hair. 

Now, with a clean non-bobified setup, I'll start again.  So far so good...XINE is already back up and runnin smooth.

Though I'll be snaggin the latest Mandrake isos shortly. 

Don't get me wrong...I'm just venting....So far, I've already learned alot of good stuff... 


If the package manage refuses to uninstall a package, whats the prefered way to remove it?


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## Bob Hubbard

ok, the issues that are at play with this server don't apply on the box giving me a headache, so I snaged teh AP2 source and am working with that now.  I tried previously to install from the supplied RPMs but couldn't get PHP support to work, even though it was sellected.  Am trying from a clean install, so hopefully whatever mispathing was previously present will be fixed now...


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## satans.barber

Linux isn't really about graphical stuff, most (95%+) problems are fixed from the command line - learn it, love it, it's your new friend 

RPM's work well, unless you enter dependancy hell.

In general, you just need:

% rpm -ivh package.rpm

If you're upgrading (like upgrading apache), it's:

% rpm -Uvh package.rpm

If the install fails, it'll tell you that it needs another package usually, and you'll have to grab that. You can also add an extra 'v' to the flags to make it super verbose, which can be useful sometimes.

The sorts of graphical tools you're using won't give you the same feedback, and it'll just take longer!

Also, there's usually excellent installation instructions in the docs that come with the files, so, RTFM 

If you want to compile it from source, the standard 3 commands are:

% ./configure
% make
% make install

..and you'll have to be root to do make install. This can vary though, so check the docs.

The installation/uninstallation is the only big drawback with linux really, from a day-to-day point of view. My GPS runs Debian, which has apt-get, which makes life a WHOLE lot easier! You can also try getting urpmi to run on Red Hat, which is a similar kind of thing.

As for media and DVDs etc., Linux was never designed to do that, so don't expect thrilling performance. If you have an nVidia card you can install nVidia's linux drivers, which will improve performace no end.

Ian.


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## Bob Hubbard

Ok, AP2 gave me a ton of fits.  configured, maked n installed np, yet refused to run.   Gave up for now, cleaned out the files and went back to fighting with 1.3.  Started with the most vanilla config and started playing with options.  Finally found the right mix to correctly allow DSO.  

MYSQL went in ok, I think....but I cant find the files... heh. (Used an RPM.)

Also got php support to work.... combing thru the httpd.conf file here and comparing it line by line with what was generated indicated that despite the install saying it was all set, I still needed to manually edit in some file associations to get things running right.

so, its been a hell of a learning experience....now to go figureout how to get these services to show up  in the services thingy. heh.

Thanks for the tips and patience.


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## Bob Hubbard

Got an nVidia card in there....DVD playbacks good.  

urpmi - looking it up.  Thanks! 

The best thing is having multiple shells open though...and cut-n-paste is definately my friend here.


1 things for certain....I sure got a long way to go b4 taking that cert test. :rofl:


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## Bob Hubbard

ok, reinstalled MYSQL, and figured out how to tweak things so the right stuff autoloads, and is in the path.  Its a bit creaky, but since this isn't a production server, its ok for now.

Am now loading in a backup copy of MartialTalk. 
Bloody database is 360MB!!!!!

The system has recomended I go relax for a bit while it does its thing.  (Makes a note - install phpmyadmin fast)

So far, So good.


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## arnisador

What _is_ a .rpm file for, anyway?


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## Bob Hubbard

RPM's in theory save you from having to do the whole compile/make/install process.

You just use a centralized 'package manager' (similar to the intent behind windows add/remove programs feature) and it does the messy stuff saving you headaches.

When it works.

The biggest problem is, often times you either cant find em, they are a release behind, or the individual releasing the RPM assumes you know how to handle it.


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## satans.barber

It's not scary once you get used to it 

For RPM's, you should get them from rpmfind.net, which will show you all the latest version numbers etc.

Your services will probably be started from /etc/init.d/ 

ian@alice:/etc/init.d$ ls my*
mysql
ian@alice:/etc/init.d$

There's MySQL sat in mine you see. 

Some things may be started via inetd, which is basically a file with a list of services in - uncomment any services you want. That moves though, so do 'updatedb' as root, then 'locate inetd' as any user to find it. That's more for your daemons, like ftpd, fingerd etc.

Once you install something, it should be added into /usr/bin/ or /usr/sbin/, soemthing like that, which will be in your path, so you can just run it.

Type the first couple of letters of the program at the command line, then press the TAB key (may need to press it twice), you'll see any programs in your path pop up, like this:

ian@alice:/etc$ mysql<tab><tab>
mysql                       mysqlbug
mysql_convert_table_format  mysqlcheck
mysql_find_rows             mysqld_multi
mysql_fix_privilege_tables  mysqldump
mysql_install_db            mysqldumpslow
mysql_setpermission         mysqlhotcopy
mysql_zap                   mysqlimport
mysqlaccess                 mysqlshow
mysqladmin                  mysqltest
mysqlbinlog
ian@alice:/etc$ mysql

As for Apache 2, the config files have changes slightly in syntax, so you can't just copy Apache 1.x httpd.conf and commonhttp files over, they need re-tweaking. This is a bit of an ****, but, Apache 2 is more secure, so moving over to the latest release would be a good idea. If someone's going to get into a linux system, the httpd is a firm favourite! But if it's not visible to the Net, don't worry about it.

Remember, if you want to check you're not running any extraneous services on it, you can do:

% nmap -sT localhost

Which will give you a readout of your open ports (obviously you have to have nmap installed, 'rpm -ivh nmapsomething.rpm' if you don't).

You get a readout like this:

ian@alice:/etc$ nmap -sT localhost

Starting nmap V. 2.54BETA31 ( www.insecure.org/nmap/ )
Warning:  You are not root -- using TCP pingscan rather than ICMP
Interesting ports on localhost (127.0.0.1):
(The 1538 ports scanned but not shown below are in state: closed)
Port       State       Service
9/tcp      open        discard
13/tcp     open        daytime
22/tcp     open        ssh
25/tcp     open        smtp
37/tcp     open        time
80/tcp     open        http
98/tcp     open        linuxconf
111/tcp    open        sunrpc
139/tcp    open        netbios-ssn
143/tcp    open        imap2
220/tcp    open        imap3
443/tcp    open        https
515/tcp    open        printer
587/tcp    open        submission
1024/tcp   open        kdm
10000/tcp  open        snet-sensor-mgmt


Nmap run completed -- 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 2 seconds
ian@alice:/etc$

Ian.


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## Bob Hubbard

Much apreciated. Thanks! 

I also found this..seems a good resource for a beginner.

its a 2 page quick reference guide.


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## Bob Hubbard

ok, I got apache in fine, php plugged in and working smoothly, and mysql up and running.  Took me a few hours, and some serious diggin but I got everything runnin.  Can't seem to access the MT datadump though...  I did however get a copy of Invisionboard running, so will be playing with a copy of vB soon.  My guess is that I imported the database wrong or got a permision goofed somewhere.

But..I'm making progress...so far, no cities have been vaporized either. 

Thank you for all the help n patience.


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