# World Championships USA



## terryl965 (May 6, 2011)

Well for the firsat time in forty years USA Tae Kwo Do failed to recieve atleast one medal. We have been blanked, who is to blame for this and why? Surely the athletes did all they could do, where they properly prepared for international competition? Did they have enough experience? Maybe just maybe it was notin the cards, all I know we got a big goose egg and that hasnever happen before are we going backward compared to all other countries?


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## Archtkd (May 6, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Well for the firsat time in forty years USA Tae Kwo Do failed to recieve atleast one medal. We have been blanked, who is to blame for this and why? Surely the athletes did all they could do, where they properly prepared for international competition? Did they have enough experience? Maybe just maybe it was notin the cards, all I know we got a big goose egg and that hasnever happen before are we going backward compared to all other countries?


 
Ask Mr. Askinas. It's a shame given the big role the U.S played in making Taekwondo an international sport. On a side note Korea, the motherland,  had major problems too. Korea only got two golds from the men's team marking the firs time that the country failed to retain the men's overall title in the history of the championships.


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## Poomsaeguy (May 6, 2011)

Or maybe....just maybe, the other fighters on that day were just better. That is why they call it compatition.


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## miguksaram (May 6, 2011)

Poomsaeguy said:


> Or maybe....just maybe, the other fighters on that day were just better. That is why they call it compatition.


I think the question is why was USA not better?  What made the other teams stronger?  Is it the training Team USA is receiving?  Is the coaching not up to speed?  Are the field of the Athletes chosen to represent not preparing better or not really the best of the best that we have to offer? (Please note that these are just questions and I am in no way saying our athletes suck or the coaching sucks.  Just trying to figure out why the drop in medals.)


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## Tez3 (May 6, 2011)

Well you'd better sort it   I've bought tickets for the Olympic TKD and am expecting to meet some of you guys!


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## ATC (May 6, 2011)

No national support for out athletes. Other conuntries support their athletes, we make ours foot their own way or hope that some private donations or sponcerships happen. By doing this we lose a great many possible hopefuls. I am sure there are some great athletes and fighters out there better than the ones we sent but when you can't get the oppertunities due to financial woes then you lose those people. The sad thing is that you don't even know what you lost.

Not to mention the crazy politics in play with our NGB.


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## terryl965 (May 6, 2011)

Poomsaeguy said:


> Or maybe....just maybe, the other fighters on that day were just better. That is why they call it compatition.


 
That is one way of looking at it, I was just curios since this is the first year we failed to madal. I believe our athletes did they very best they could but where they prepared for this competition?


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## puunui (May 6, 2011)

What I was told was that the LaJust electronic protectors had a large part in this year's results. Korea had the poorest showing ever as well. Perhaps that will help to wake people up on how bad Lajust is. I was watching some footage and the impression I got was that legitimate and valid roundhouse kicks scored 10% of the time. Electronic scoring simply does not work. If I were an active competitor or coach, I would be highly discouraged and frankly depressed by the state of affairs in national and international competition. 

I keep thinking that we hit rock bottom, that we cannot fall any further, but I am continuously proved wrong by the latest fiasco. It is almost turning out to be a perfect storm scenario, where seemingly unrelated events are coming together for a bad bad result on the horizon. You have David Askinas, President Kang, President Choue, Secretary General Yang, LaJust, and an IOC that hates Taekwondo. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to predict the results of all of that. 

And Steven Lopez is getting old, Mark and Diana's feet are half way out the door, Jean and Juan have their own personal dramas going on, prices at USAT keep rising while membership and participation continue to drop, and the list goes on and on.


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## ATC (May 7, 2011)

puunui said:


> What I was told was that the LaJust electronic protectors had a large part in this year's results. Korea had the poorest showing ever as well. Perhaps that will help to wake people up on how bad Lajust is. I was watching some footage and the impression I got was that legitimate and valid roundhouse kicks scored 10% of the time. Electronic scoring simply does not work. If I were an active competitor or coach, I would be highly discouraged and frankly depressed by the state of affairs in national and international competition.
> 
> I keep thinking that we hit rock bottom, that we cannot fall any further, but I am continuously proved wrong by the latest fiasco. It is almost turning out to be a perfect storm scenario, where seemingly unrelated events are coming together for a bad bad result on the horizon. You have David Askinas, President Kang, President Choue, Secretary General Yang, LaJust, and an IOC that hates Taekwondo. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to predict the results of all of that.
> 
> And Steven Lopez is getting old, Mark and Diana's feet are half way out the door, Jean and Juan have their own personal dramas going on, prices at USAT keep rising while membership and participation continue to drop, and the list goes on and on.


I don't thing LaJust had anything to do with it. Anyone can watch many of the matches online for free at http://www.dartfish.tv/. There is no way only 10% of so called valid kicks scored. Watch the matches for yourself. Many of the so called valid kicks are blocked and never touch a valid scoring area. Kick right with good power and proper techniques and you will score, simple as that.

Everyone uses the same system so how can a weaker fighter score less than a better fighter with the same so called poor system. They way many talk on here about the system they make it seem like the system is only bad for the so called good fighters. If the system is bad it is bad for all.

Now is the system perfect? No but it is not perfect for all, not some.


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## ATC (May 7, 2011)

Here is one exciting match from the WC 2011
http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.as...FR1VMIFNlcnZldAABAQ9wMWMyNTQ2NG00NjE4MTcAAAA=

Servet (in red) from Turkey (gold medalist) is just a beast. And you won't see 90% of his valid kicks not score.


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## ralphmcpherson (May 7, 2011)

How did the aussies go? Are there any good australian fighters I should keep an eye out for?


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## MSUTKD (May 7, 2011)

I will not sit here and armchair the Taekwondo world or my fellow teammates with, could'ah, would'ah, should'ah. I am proud of them, many my personal friends, and I know that they fought hard. I know a lot of hours were spent in preparation for this event.  I know a lot of sacrifices were made and I know that many hearts are on the floor after a tough event. When you have participated at a real world event as a competitor, then you will understand. 
I, for one, am proud of Team USA!

Welcome to world competition!


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## terryl965 (May 7, 2011)

Master Southwick I am too proud of the team, they trained hard and fought hard. I saw the live streaming of fights. I know so many of them on a personal level as well and even sit and break bread with them. 

I am just bringing to light that this is the first orld Championship we did not medal in and if there was anything as a whole we should be doing for our athletes like yourself and the poomsae team.

Maybe we need funding so the team can get extra training time with our coaches, maybe our players need there personal coaches there to coach them. I do not have any answer for what happen and surely do not but blame on anybody but we need a better pipeline for getting them together with our selective coaches so they can blend together. We need better funding for all of the athletes both sparing and poomsae. 

I do not buy into the lajust thing mainly because it is unfair to all competitors out there so it is a level ground in that regards. Would you agree we need better funding for our athletes? Would you agree we need more time with our coaches to find that trust in each other? Would you agree we need coaches that have only one purpose and that is training and fielding the best team possible? 

I believe coaches should be fulltime at the Olympic training center developing a better training regiment and getting that material out there for our up and coming fighters.

I am sorry if you feel people are bashing the athletes, I see it as questioning what can be done to improve and learn from this.W eneed better support from our NGB.:asian:


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## Tez3 (May 7, 2011)

For the UK's Sarah Stevenson it's her third World title, the first being ten years ago so I don't think electronic judging can make so much of a difference.

The UK team did well and I think money may well have a lot to do with it, along with other Olympic sports here they have been receiving money from the National Lottery. It's not everything though, the UK boxing team did before the Beijing Olympics, they had boxers training fulltime in professional training facilities but the team did poorly overall.
This may be of interest as the Director talks money ,training etc.

http://www.martialedge.net/articles...mance-director-for-the-british-olympic-team-/


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## andyjeffries (May 7, 2011)

puunui said:


> What I was told was that the LaJust electronic protectors had a large part in this year's results. Korea had the poorest showing ever as well. Perhaps that will help to wake people up on how bad Lajust is. I was watching some footage and the impression I got was that legitimate and valid roundhouse kicks scored 10% of the time.



Maybe the Americans and the Koreans just don't kick as hard as us Europeans ;-)


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## andyjeffries (May 7, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Well you'd better sort it   I've bought tickets for the Olympic TKD and am expecting to meet some of you guys!



Likewise!  I've put in for some tickets (for the early rounds rather than finals - they are generally better fights with the finals being cagier in general)...

Hoping to meet quite a few people from here on there...


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 7, 2011)

The issue with the US performance is laid solely to blame at the top of Tae Kwon Do in the United States.  Specifically the people in charge and the coaches.  The small group at the top have been for quite a while serving their own interests and not putting our best Tae Kwon Do practitioners forward to compete.  They are solely to blame for this and hopefully there will be major changes soon!


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## puunui (May 7, 2011)

ATC said:


> I don't thing LaJust had anything to do with it.



Then you disagree with pretty much everyone out there, including the KTA, who are strongly against LaJust. I don't know how to respond to someone who doesn't acknowledge that LaJust is having a tremendous impact on matches. And it started at nationals and team trials, where lajust was used. 




ATC said:


> There is no way only 10% of so called valid kicks scored.



Valid "roundhouse" kicks, not valid kicks. Big difference. The game is now cut kick, push kick, and pot kick, not roundhouse kick. 




ATC said:


> Watch the matches for yourself.



I watched some. I got tired and stopped. 

 Many of the so called valid kicks are blocked and never touch a valid scoring area. Kick right with good power and proper techniques and you will score, simple as that.



ATC said:


> Everyone uses the same system so how can a weaker fighter score less than a better fighter with the same so called poor system.



Ask the four or five time finweight world champion from Korea who didn't make team this year because of LaJust. 



ATC said:


> They way many talk on here about the system they make it seem like the system is only bad for the so called good fighters. If the system is bad it is bad for all.



It's bad if you have a roundhouse kick game. 



ATC said:


> Now is the system perfect? No but it is not perfect for all, not some.



The fact that it is bad for all doesn't make it good.


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## puunui (May 7, 2011)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> The issue with the US performance is laid solely to blame at the top of Tae Kwon Do in the United States.  Specifically the people in charge and the coaches.  The small group at the top have been for quite a while serving their own interests and not putting our best Tae Kwon Do practitioners forward to compete.  They are solely to blame for this and hopefully there will be major changes soon!



I'm no fan of the leadership at USAT, but we can't blame them for everything. They are in part responsible because David Askinas did take the LaJust money and made LaJust mandatory at our selection events. So there is that. But the larger problem is LaJust. It simply doesn't work the way it is supposed to.


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## armortkd (May 7, 2011)

USAT Leadership has little impact on US Team performance at Worlds!!! As for our National Team Coaches, they're responsible game-planning at the camps and coaching our athletes to make adjustments at Worlds. Some of our team members have coach/instructors that has LaJust at their schools. Also, they get plenty of time at the team camps with LaJust. Here are my observations on why we didn't medal:

PACE. I was troubled while I was videoing our athletes at Nationals and watching Dartfish for Team Trials. Yes, I agree that LaJust isn't a great system. I got very bored watching at times, but it's about SCORING not STYLE. Looking at the World medalists from Iran, Turkey, Thailand, and Afganistan...they were scoring round kicks and pushing the action throughout. Everyone is covering their hogu due to LaJust!!!!

We have a young, relatively inexperienced at the senior international level. Steven & Diana Lopez are focusing on World Qualifiers and Danielle Pelham lost at Team Trials. TJ Curry is new blood who will eventually do great internationally.

US Men's Team.
Luis Reyes: He has never medalled internationally & we need some new blood.
James Howe: Performed very well!!! Loss to Gabriel because of Pace.
Bernard Posey: Sad that he broke his leg! Has a great future ahead of him.
Terrance Jennings: That referee did a HORRIBLE job! Italy fell down & went out of bounds many times yet called it on TJ.
Mark Lopez: His first Worlds that he didn't medalled at =(
Luke Ford: HE BEAT AARON COOK!!! Sad that he had his teammate Rufus next fight.
Jason Neville: Didn't have a chance to watch his fights but his division was stacked!!!
Stephen Lambdin: Lost to eventual World Champion from Korea. He was a great future ahead.


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## ATC (May 7, 2011)

puunui said:


> Then you disagree with pretty much everyone out there, including the KTA, who are strongly against LaJust. I don't know how to respond to someone who doesn't acknowledge that LaJust is having a tremendous impact on matches. And it started at nationals and team trials, where lajust was used.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All just excuesses. I saw many roundhouse kicks score. Last I checked TKD was more than just a roundhouse kick. Everyone that lost in all the matches that I saw really lost. Before LaJust or any EPP system I say many so call good fighter get the benifit of kicking arms quite a bit and it be called a score. No those same people cry becasue they can't kick arms or air and score anymore. I have been in many matches where I lost because of arm kicks.


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## puunui (May 7, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> I do not buy into the lajust thing mainly because it is unfair to all competitors out there so it is a level ground in that regards.




Maybe when your students or competitors continuously land hard roundhouse kicks to the lajust hogu that don't score while your opponents scores with cut kicks and or this funky scraping the bottom of the foot on the lajust hogu kick off a cut chamber, at a team trial or wtf international event, and they lose, you will feel differently.


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## terryl965 (May 7, 2011)

puunui said:


> Maybe when your students or competitors continuously land hard roundhouse kicks to the lajust hogu that don't score while your opponents scores with cut kicks and or this funky scraping the bottom of the foot on the lajust hogu kick off a cut chamber, at a team trial or wtf international event, and they lose, you will feel differently.


 
Sir it did at the US Open but I blame myself for not being properly trained in what works and what does not with the equipment. Not saying I like them what I am saying is it is unfair to everybody.


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## Bagehot (May 8, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> I blame myself for not being properly trained in what works and what does not with the equipment.



Is it Taekwondo then? 

Or "LaJustdo"?

-- Bagehot


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## terryl965 (May 9, 2011)

Bagehot said:


> Is it Taekwondo then?
> 
> Or "LaJustdo"?
> 
> -- Bagehot


 
I guess it would be Lajustdo, but as a coach and instructor it is my job to fully understand how the equipmwnt will change the game. I still do not like them but we are kinda of stuck with it for now.


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## ATC (May 9, 2011)

Those on top deal with change better than those on bottom.

When change happens you either adapt and progress or complain and be left behind.

This is what I see going on.


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## StudentCarl (May 9, 2011)

Bagehot said:


> Is it Taekwondo then?
> 
> Or "LaJustdo"?
> 
> -- Bagehot


 

I think that perception issue may be key in deciding the fate of Taekwondo sparring as an Olympic sport. At what point does electronic scoring adaptation no longer represent the core of Taekwondo and/or of Olympic sport as a contest of athletic skill (vs. gaming the gear) and become Bizarre-Do? In any long-established sport, the rule set and equipment step into the background and show off the skill and athleticism of the athletes as the decider of victory. If we can't solve that puzzle, the game will end. Wii Bowling can be fun, but it's not real bowling. Let's not become a Wii game.


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## taekwondodo (May 9, 2011)

Using Lajust Hogu has brougth the way of fighting to a new level. Its about techniques more than brute force when kicking.

Old ways:
45 round kick will score. The edge of the foot landed will score. The edge of the foot + big sounds will score. Judges not looking at the kicker, but see the motion, hear the sound=push button. SCORE!

Lajust forces fighters to retrained their body. This is how I belief LaJust Hogu works:
Point=force+contact surface area+compression

1. Force: came from the kicker
2. Contact area: How much square inch of the metal mesh fabrics did the force distributed and applied
3. Compression: the opponent coming in or amount of substance re-inforced the hogu. (That is why the USAT ref check how tight the Hogu tied. They did the loose fit test)

Fighters now have to train to pivot, rotate their hip, and bring the knees over the center line to have maximum surface area of the top of the foot to score point. (does this remind you of the POOMSAE technique????)

Power alone will not be sufficient to register a scoring point. The power level on each division set to certain range to register. If the fighter have enough power but do not have enough compression AND surface area then they will not score.

That is why the old fighting ways will not work, ie.. 45 degree kicks. Now if a fighter can deliver a 45 round kick with enough surface are contact+ sufficient force..then he/she will be able to score.

Back kick:

Same thing, but harder because the scoring surface area is in the heel, but smaller. So the fighters still have to have: surface area+force+ compression = Point.

Again, back kick: doesn't this remind you of how we teach our kids to do the proper techniques on doing POOMSAE????

So nothing new except the WTF demanded Lajust to design it in a way that proper techniques being brought back in fighting.

I can't score squat with Lajust.  If I am lucky, I will have 1 point in body kick.  Majority of my points derived from punches and head kicks.  Maybe a back kick because my back kick is good and traditional.


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## hal-apino (May 9, 2011)

Here are the problems that I have;
Jean Lopez "paid National Olympic coach" leaving training 2 days early to show up at AAU Nationals. Why? 

Juan Morean "paid National Coach" training and having a student that competed for Hati.

Rudford Hamon - AAC rep for the USAT fights for Hati

Laurin Cahoon - Student of Juan's, aac rep, and married to another AAC Rep that fights for Hati. 

Luke Ford- Student of Juan's ends up fighting another student of Juan's that is fighting for Hati! 

Juan Moreno -Decided not to coach the fight between 2 students even though one fights for USA and the other Hati! This is after Luke Ford beats out Aaron Cook! Where was Juan's loyalty? 

Christina Bailey is at worlds as a Asst National Coach, but can not coach her student! Why? 

Eric Laurin is there at worlds he is on the Board of Director as the USOC athlete Rep and also chair of the AAC for the USAT he is coaching for 2 students that were fighting for Panama! 

The team got what I am told, a major lecture and butt chewing! They were told how disapointed the coaches were and that they had the best coaches in the world! They put all the blame on the athletes! It was them 100%! 

Was it Luke Ford's fault that Juan decided to not coach him against Rudford? 
Was it Aziza's fault when she could not have her own coach her? 
What was Mark's problem? His fault and not his Brothers??? 
Just by the actions of Eric Laurin a USOC Athlete rep coaching 2 students of a former Board member that are fighting for Panama shows that something is wrong with this sport! There also has to be something said for so many Americans fighting for other countries.


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## armortkd (May 9, 2011)

hal-apino said:


> Here are the problems that I have;
> Jean Lopez "paid National Olympic coach" leaving training 2 days early to show up at AAU Nationals. Why?
> 
> Juan Morean "paid National Coach" training and having a student that competed for Hati.
> ...


Juan should of been in Luke's chair!!! There's no excuse for that. Jean could of coached Luke. I don't have an issue with Jean leaving early if approved or Mark's performance (1 Gold, 1 Silver, 2 Bronze medals and now 1 Quarterfinal is damn impressive!!!). I do have an issue with Rufus being an AAC Rep and now competing for Haiti. He should resign even if there's no rules covering this. Lauren being married to Rufus shouldn't even be a topic for discussion. If Eric went to Worlds on his own dime to coach 2 of his athletes from Panama, I'm cool with that. Juan is the owner and head coach for Peak, and Christina Bayley is under Peak with Aziza so Juan knows her well. If an athlete has dual citizenship, follows IOC & WTF rules, and feels that they have a better shot competing for another country, that's their choice.


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## puunui (May 9, 2011)

ATC said:


> All just excuesses.



Who is making excuses, the KTA? The multi time finweight world champion? 




ATC said:


> I saw many roundhouse kicks score.



Did you also see many that did not score? How about at USAT national events when they are testing the gear and people are getting folded over during the tests and still no score from LaJust? 




ATC said:


> Last I checked TKD was more than just a roundhouse kick.



Name me one champion that doesn't or didn't score the majority of their points by roundhouse kick to the body.




ATC said:


> Everyone that lost in all the matches that I saw really lost.



How can you say that? You don't know how the match would have gone if a score that should have gone up did in fact went up and now the person who was winning is now losing. Or are you of the opinion that match tactics don't change whether one is winning or losing? 




ATC said:


> Before LaJust or any EPP system I say many so call good fighter get the benifit of kicking arms quite a bit and it be called a score. No those same people cry becasue they can't kick arms or air and score anymore. I have been in many matches where I lost because of arm kicks.



Now we get to the crux of your position, which is that you feel you lost matches because of points getting scored on your arm, and therefore you think that it is ok to radically change the game with LaJust, so your pet peeve is taken care of. This is not unlike what happened to the USTU, wherein people who lost a state president election felt it was ok to tear the whole system down and put USAT in place. No more state president elections with USAT, so that problem is solved, right? 

There are several reasons and several solutions for your arm score issue that are within your control and does not involve changing Taekwondo competition to a push kick pot kick game. One thing might be to check out some different arm pads. Some arm pads may look cool, especially if you wear them on the outside of your dobok sleeves, but make a very loud sound if you kick them. I would rather have a less pretty forearm guard that deadens the sound. You might also wish to block out farther from your body, so that the judges can clearly see that the kick landed on the arm, rather than the hogu. 

I wrote a post about this back after the conclusion of Nationals and Team Trials, wherein it was the opinion of many that our best athletes were not selected for team or even allowed to fight at team trials because they lost at Nationals, due to LaJust issues. Our best athletes were not selected for team, so why is it a big surprise that we didn't win medals at worlds?


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## puunui (May 9, 2011)

ATC said:


> Those on top deal with change better than those on bottom.
> 
> When change happens you either adapt and progress or complain and be left behind.
> 
> This is what I see going on.




The difference between your position and mine is that you are voicing the position of those who are not in control or power, wherein your only choice is to, as you say "either adapt and progress or complain and be left behind." I am voicing the position of those who are in a position to change things. To them, LaJust does not work, and they are taking steps to remove LaJust from the equation, hopefully before it's too late.


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## ATC (May 9, 2011)

puunui said:


> Who is making excuses, the KTA? The multi time finweight world champion?
> 
> Did you also see many that did not score? How about at USAT national events when they are testing the gear and people are getting folded over during the tests and still no score from LaJust?
> 
> ...


You stance is to myopic.

Just because someone use to win when it was a certian way, does not indicate that the new way is worse or better, it is just different.

Take tennis for example: You have some players that are great on clay but suck and grass. Just as you have some that are great on the hard court vs. clay or grass. Then you have those elite that are great on all surfaces (very few, 1 or 2 only).

Just because something is not to your liking does not make it bad, it makes it only different.

You say that the multi year winner lost and blamed LuJust, as did the KTA. Well they point fingers because they lost and did not or were unwilling to change. Change is hard and no one likes it, but those that accecpt it and move on grow and get better.

You talked about people getting doubled over during the testing to the system and not getting it to score. There can be many factors for that. The system can be set for at different levels. Maybe it was on a high level and some smaller or lighter people were testing it. Just because a Fin doubles over another fin dose not mean that the system should score if set for heavy weights. Maybe they were not using the sensor part of the sock and were hitting closer to the shin. Many times we see this and thing man that should ahve scored, but after a closer look the instep never made impact only the ankle did right before the shin. I know a lot of people that kick with that part because they don't have hardend insteps and it hurts too much to hit a hard hogu with the instep.

You can either fight the change and cry because what you can only do won't work. Or you man up and adapt and become better. Keep what you use to do and add to it. From what I saw at the WC I did not see anyone really be negated becasue of the system.

If all you have is one kick and that aint working then you should lose. Again, TKD is more than just roundhouse kicks. And it is surely more than just round house kicks to the body only. Yeah I guess I would complain to if the only thing that I could do (and poorly at that, 45 degree kicks) was taken away, I just got exposed.

Change and adapt, it is the way of life not just sport TKD.


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## ATC (May 9, 2011)

puunui said:


> The difference between your position and mine is that you are voicing the position of those who are not in control or power, wherein your only choice is to, as you say "either adapt and progress or complain and be left behind." I am voicing the position of those who are in a position to change things. To them, LaJust does not work, and they are taking steps to remove LaJust from the equation, hopefully before it's too late.


Change what? They don't want to change anything. They simply want to keep things as it suits them. Put it back is what you should have said. "They", don't want change. Too funny.

Hey I can't score on that system so it suck. But then someone else says I have no problems. So what do we do? In ten years it won't matter because all the ones that would not change will be gone. We will only have those that only know what is used at that time. Then something new will come along and those that only knew the LaJust system will be in your shoes.

Funny how things progress. That man in the model T ford that only did 20 miles an hours and made all sorts of noise looked stupid and funny back then too. No a man riding a horse on the freeway looks stupid.


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## puunui (May 9, 2011)

ATC said:


> You stance is to myopic. Just because someone use to win when it was a certian way, does not indicate that the new way is worse or better, it is just different.



First of all let's set some basic facts down. 1) Lajust doesn't work, certainly not all the time. No one argues that point. Or do you? 2) When Lajust isn't working, it isn't scoring points that should go up, and other weaker points that shouldn't score does go up. No one argues this point. Or do you? 




ATC said:


> Take tennis for example: You have some players that are great on clay but suck and grass. Just as you have some that are great on the hard court vs. clay or grass. Then you have those elite that are great on all surfaces (very few, 1 or 2 only).



that might make sense if we are discussing whether puzzle mats should be used vs. a basketball hard court like in the old days. Different surfaces. But if you wanted to analogize Taekwondo Lajust to Tennis it would be strings that broke erratically during a match. Someone comes out and says, those strings don't work, and you argue, those strings don't work for everyone, therefore adapt or complain and get left behind.




ATC said:


> Just because something is not to your liking does not make it bad, it makes it only different.



The fact that I or anyone else "doesn't like it" doesn't make it bad, the fact that it doesn't work makes it bad. 




ATC said:


> You say that the multi year winner lost and blamed LuJust, as did the KTA. Well they point fingers because they lost and did not or were unwilling to change. Change is hard and no one likes it, but those that accecpt it and move on grow and get better.



It was reported in the news. I want to say it was posted here. The KTA tried it and again, it didn't work. That is the issue, not whether someone likes it or not or whether they should change. Sometimes you have to go back in order to go forward. People rejected new Coke. You would have us say take it or complain and get left behind. We don't have to accept LaJust, anymore than we have to accept new Coke. 




ATC said:


> You talked about people getting doubled over during the testing to the system and not getting it to score. There can be many factors for that. The system can be set for at different levels. Maybe it was on a high level and some smaller or lighter people were testing it. Just because a Fin doubles over another fin dose not mean that the system should score if set for heavy weights. Maybe they were not using the sensor part of the sock and were hitting closer to the shin.



Or maybe Lajust simply does not work. 




ATC said:


> Many times we see this and thing man that should ahve scored, but after a closer look the instep never made impact only the ankle did right before the shin. I know a lot of people that kick with that part because they don't have hardend insteps and it hurts too much to hit a hard hogu with the instep.



The rules don't state that you have to score using the instep. The rules state that you can score with any part of the foot below the ankle bone. However, LaJust does not comply with that rule. You say we should just adapt. Does that include amending the WTF Competition Rules to accommodate LaJust? Or should Lajust accommodate the WTF rules? 




ATC said:


> You can either fight the change and cry because what you can only do won't work. Or you man up and adapt and become better. Keep what you use to do and add to it. From what I saw at the WC I did not see anyone really be negated becasue of the system.



I can understand how that would be the approach of someone without the ability to have the rules changed. Another approach could be to recognize that the system does not work, and therefore we need to find something else, perhaps a different system, or perhaps a return to what we had before. 




ATC said:


> If all you have is one kick and that aint working then you should lose. Again, TKD is more than just roundhouse kicks. And it is surely more than just round house kicks to the body only. Yeah I guess I would complain to if the only thing that I could do (and poorly at that, 45 degree kicks) was taken away, I just got exposed.



You didn't really answer my question, which was to name one champion that didn't score the majority of their points with roundhouse kick to the body. Instead you chose to criticize all past, present and future champions who have that roundhouse kick. I guess that is your choice. 




ATC said:


> Change and adapt, it is the way of life not just sport TKD.



I'm all for changing and adapting, in fact I am generally at the front of the line on that concept. But what I am not for is accepting a flawed electronic system that does not work and put Taekwondo's future in the Olympic Games on that flawed system. We certainly don't need to do that, anymore than people have to accept, adapt and change to USAT's nonsensical crap.


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## puunui (May 9, 2011)

ATC said:


> Change what? They don't want to change anything. They simply want to keep things as it suits them. Put it back is what you should have said. "They", don't want change. Too funny.



Like I said before, sometimes you have to go backward to go forwards. USAT attempted their "new" model of governance, which like LaJust, does not work. Now people want to go back to what we had at USTU. Do you think that's "too funny" as well? Should we all just suck it up and accept whatever comes down the pike from USAT? 




ATC said:


> Hey I can't score on that system so it suck. But then someone else says I have no problems. So what do we do? In ten years it won't matter because all the ones that would not change will be gone. We will only have those that only know what is used at that time. Then something new will come along and those that only knew the LaJust system will be in your shoes.



Actually it's "Hey, the system doesn't work so it sucks." But you maybe right on one point, the way things are going for Taekwondo, the only people who might be doing Taekwondo competition in the future are those who like Lajust, which are not many. 




ATC said:


> Funny how things progress. That man in the model T ford that only did 20 miles an hours and made all sorts of noise looked stupid and funny back then too. No a man riding a horse on the freeway looks stupid.



Actually the guys on the horse and model T look pretty smart compared to the guy in the time traveling deloren that doesn't work. But it is not even that, it is the comparison with the guy in the 2010 model cars driving on the freeway in comparison to the guy in the time traveling deloren that doesn't work.

You remind me of Jay Ferguson, who was supporting the "new" USAT, telling us change is good, etc. I used to debate with him too, telling him that USAT will not and does not work, for all the reasons people talk about now. I wonder where Jay is now.... 

I can understand the concept of adapting to LaJust, at least on the short term, especially if you have Olympic caliber athletes under your charge. But for the rest of the Taekwondo competing community, LaJust is just another reason in favor of not participating in kyorugi tournaments -- it's expensive (you have to rent it now that it is clear few want to buy it) and the stuff doesn't work.


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## Master Dan (May 9, 2011)

Sorry Terry but its not about electronic scoring or USAT or USTU its about the watering down of what was a good full contact fighting system to a watered down Olympic Commercialized Mc Do Jo shadow of its former self.

At the base we need only good center referees with enough respect and experience that their word is final and good corner judges.

Who cares what the equipment says if one oponent cannot continue or is assleep???

We lost that since the 70's The only way to save TKD Olympics is to now allow the professional fighters from MMA in just like they did in Basket Ball but make them fight in our Olympic rules. My opinion of other countries faring better is they are more hungry to fight more basic hard contact and screw all the round kick scoring get back to hard penetrating techinique strait in knocking down and if the center ref cannot score that over what the machines are saying he should not be in the ring!!!!!!!!

Trust me they will not drop thier hands and we will have no doubt who lost and who won? I found an old Lopez vhs tape to show to class last week for Olympic team trials and all hands down so boring I am falling assleep and even low rank people are looking at it compared to what is going on now days it just sucks.

TKD will survive long after the Olympics but based on good masters teaching the whole art serving the community not worshiping the God of Commercialization raping 90% of practitioners to support the 2% of actual participants in Olympics it was a lie 30 years ago and still is. We need to stop this blind techniques and falling down scoring. Manny Paquiou would just clean most of our guys clocks not dropping his hands and working the body. One of Mas Oyamas main reasons for refusing to join the Original TKD Olympic org was he did not believe in the TKD sport fighting premis over good quality hard strait in techinique. 

US and Korea not winning any medals is no different then when we hosted the Nationals in 1990 and the OTC members trained at our club they had all these new yells and fancy technque we had not seen and at the end of the tournament the Korean Masters and GM stood the OTC team up in the bleachers I was there and they said ok how many 1st place (none) how many 2nd place (none) How many 3rd place (none) they threw thier hands up in discust and walked away.

Its not about flash its meat and potatoes. I sent a 13 year old Eskimo girl to the OTC in the 90's and she knocked any one out of the ring up to 70lbs heavier they all wanted to know who is she who trained her if we had been rich she could have been famous in TKD but no matter she and her brother are both nationally and internationally famous and world record holders in other areas I am thankful I never allowed her to train further with all the abuse issues?

TKD has so much more to offer beyond sport TKD always has NGB dying and the Olympics could be the best thing to happen because it will force a change to focus on other things like Hanmadang, cultural tournaments, cultural exchange, behavior health and academic achievment far more important.

Masters have failed to make the real reason important for going to tournament its cultural exchange, doing your best for its own sake, learning and personal development not taking 1st 2nd 3rd place Even Koreans or looking to alternatives beyond Olympic sparring and recently a home grown Korean smoked an MMA oponent using a flip choke submission no one had ever seen before so it will be interesting to see if more of them will cross over out of sheer boredom?


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## Archtkd (May 9, 2011)

hal-apino said:


> Jean Lopez "paid National Olympic coach" leaving training 2 days early to show up at AAU Nationals. Why?
> 
> Juan Morean "paid National Coach" training and having a student that competed for Hati.
> 
> ...



Funny how things go around. I wonder how much this thread woiul light up if USAT national coaches where Korean-America and doing the things claimed. Wasn't this loyalty issue used during the destruction of the USTU?


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## puunui (May 9, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> US and Korea not winning any medals is no different then when we hosted the Nationals in 1990 and the OTC members trained at our club they had all these new yells and fancy technque we had not seen and at the end of the tournament the Korean Masters and GM stood the OTC team up in the bleachers I was there and they said ok how many 1st place (none) how many 2nd place (none) How many 3rd place (none) they threw thier hands up in discust and walked away.




Actually if you are talking about Portland Nationals, hosted by GM Tae Hong CHOI, it was 1991, not 1990. I was there too. OTC did win that year at Nationals, Juan Moreno, Scott Fujii and May Pejo won gold for example. As for new yells and fancy technique, I don't know what you are talking about because they pretty much stuck to the basics (roundhouse kick to the body), but they did use a lot of steps, which was pretty new for a lot of people back then.

http://assets.usoc.org/assets/docum...e/20710/1991_Sr__Nat_l_black_belt_results.pdf


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## puunui (May 9, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> Funny how things go around. I wonder how much this thread woiul light up if USAT national coaches where Korean-America and doing the things claimed. Wasn't this loyalty issue used during the destruction of the USTU?




For one thing, I can tell you that neither President Sang Lee nor any of the other OTC coaches trained or coached people from other countries. But I was just talking about this with a senior today about the fact that if the US National Team came back from World Championships with zero medals during President Lee's term of office, there would be a hundred letters of complaint to the USOC by now, no matter what the actual reasons. Another senior predicted that Mr. Askinas would be out of USAT by the end of the year.


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## puunui (May 9, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> Its not about flash its meat and potatoes. I sent a 13 year old Eskimo girl to the OTC in the 90's and she knocked any one out of the ring up to 70lbs heavier they all wanted to know who is she who trained her if we had been rich she could have been famous in TKD but no matter she and her brother are both nationally and internationally famous and world record holders in other areas I am thankful I never allowed her to train further with all the abuse issues?




What year was this, or better yet, who was the OTC Coach when you sent her?


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## ATC (May 10, 2011)

puunui said:


> Actually the guys on the horse and model T look pretty smart compared to the guy in the time traveling deloren that doesn't work. But it is not even that, it is the comparison with the guy in the 2010 model cars driving on the freeway in comparison to the guy in the time traveling deloren that doesn't work.


Most of what you said was way off the wall but at least it dealt in some sense of reality. However the above took the cake. How can you compare fiction/fantasy to reality in making a point.:shrug: sigh!!


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## Markku P (May 10, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> We lost that since the 70's The only way to save TKD Olympics is to now allow the professional fighters from MMA in just like they did in Basket Ball but make them fight in our Olympic rules. M



I don't think "professional" MMA fighters do so well in Taekwondo tournaments (WC,Olympics)
two totally different sports. It also don't make any sense to them to to attend to TKD tournaments. They will make more money with MMA..?

/Markku


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## Tez3 (May 10, 2011)

Markku P said:


> I don't think "professional" MMA fighters do so well in Taekwondo tournaments (WC,Olympics)
> two totally different sports. It also don't make any sense to them to to attend to TKD tournaments. They will make more money with MMA..?
> 
> /Markku


 

Some I know would do very well as they are TKD Dan grades and have gone through TKD competitions before. Most fighters get very little money if any for fighting, those fighting amateur and semi pro rules usually just get expenses. Very few are professional fighters though quite a lot fight pro rules, here you'll get more money doing TKD expecially if picked for the Olympics. The vast majoirty of people who do MMA do it as a hobby not as a career or living.


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## Markku P (May 10, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Maybe the Americans and the Koreans just don't kick as hard as us Europeans ;-)



or Iranians..:angel:

/Markku


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## Markku P (May 10, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Some I know would do very well as they are TKD Dan grades and have gone through TKD competitions before. Most fighters get very little money if any for fighting, those fighting amateur and semi pro rules usually just get expenses. Very few are professional fighters though quite a lot fight pro rules, here you'll get more money doing TKD expecially if picked for the Olympics. The vast majoirty of people who do MMA do it as a hobby not as a career or living.




Many MMA fighters are true athletes but it will take long time to adapt a style and learn your competition (other fighters ) + learning to know referees, their style of judging etc. Of course it is not impossible..

/Markku


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## Markku P (May 10, 2011)

Reasons why USA didn't succeed is somewhere here?

1) National federation ( How they organized national team training, How much money they spend and where, selection process for national team etc. )
2) Coaching Athletes last couple of years ( fighter´s individual coaches )
3) Coaching during competition
4) How were fighters prepared ( training, how many international tournaments before WC etc.)

We can't really blame on fighters, there is so many other factors involved.

/Markku


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## Tez3 (May 10, 2011)

Markku P said:


> Many MMA fighters are true athletes but it will take long time to adapt a style and learn your competition (other fighters ) + learning to know referees, their style of judging etc. Of course it is not impossible..
> 
> /Markku


 

Most MMA fighters are ordinary martial artists, we are happy with what we do, most of us have gone throught the TMA competitions and we've gone onto MMA as we like the mixed aspect of it. It's not that difficult for any karateka to adapt to TKD comps or vice versa. I went into it because I was getting older and that bit slower for the full contact karate comps I'd been doing even in the older age group, I like the ground work aspect, gives me more options. the full contact karate and the Olympic TKD is frankly for the younger and more supple  

I don't know though why MMA was brought into this thread as it has nothing to do with the TKD World Championships. I believe though that there are professional TKD players in some European countries where they have leagues etc so if anyone was being brought in to 'save' TKD surely it would be them. I don't see the point though.


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## Markku P (May 10, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I believe though that there are professional TKD players in some European countries where they have leagues etc so if anyone was being brought in to 'save' TKD surely it would be them. I don't see the point though.




I agree Now is time to go and teach some poomsae and sparring! ( my classes will start soon)

/Markku


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## puunui (May 10, 2011)

Markku P said:


> Many MMA fighters are true athletes but it will take long time to adapt a style and learn your competition (other fighters ) + learning to know referees, their style of judging etc. Of course it is not impossible../Markku




The biggest issue is motivation or incentive. Why would an MMA fighter want to compete at Taekwondo events? What's in it for them?


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## puunui (May 10, 2011)

ATC said:


> Most of what you said was way off the wall but at least it dealt in some sense of reality. However the above took the cake. How can you compare fiction/fantasy to reality in making a point.:shrug: sigh!!




Comparing lajust to a time travelling deloren is appropriate because both don't work. Again, i am not against electronic scoring, which is what you seem to think; what I am against is electronic scoring that doesn't work. But if you think what I wrote is "way off the wall" then by all means, feel free to respond to each point. But if you do so, please do so with facts.


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## puunui (May 10, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Maybe the Americans and the Koreans just don't kick as hard as us Europeans ;-)




You know what? I sincerely hope that Europe takes the lion's share of the medals in Taekwondo at the 2012 Olympics. Because if that happens, perhaps the European IOC members will vote to keep Taekwondo in in 2013.


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## puunui (May 10, 2011)

Markku P said:


> or Iranians..:angel:




Including the Iranians who got Afgani passports and fought at World Championships this year.


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## ATC (May 10, 2011)

puunui said:


> Comparing lajust to a time travelling deloren is appropriate because both don't work. Again, i am not against electronic scoring, which is what you seem to think; what I am against is electronic scoring that doesn't work. But if you think what I wrote is "way off the wall" then by all means, feel free to respond to each point. But if you do so, please do so with facts.


My point was that the model T Ford was a real machine that did not work all that well and was not as good as a horse but that did not stop the progress. Now looking back who would ride a horse as their means of transportation. I can't equate a fictional thing to a real thing.

Point being, EPP is here to stay, you must change and grow with this system and others to come. LaJust is just the one system and one of the first to be used in production. Will it be around in 10 years? Who knows but something will and LaJust paved the way. 1st Gen stuff never is the best. Just look at the fist Mac's or PC's They were rediculious. The Iphone has more computing power than anything that got us to the moon.

You can't spend your time complaining once the milk is spilt, you can only clean it up. If all the energy use in simply complaining was use to help fix or even create and make a better system was use then we would be well ahead of what we have today.

Maybe we should all be sending in list of issue with the system and asking for the fixes and not just complaining that my guy thinks this sucks.

I work in High Tech. I see products developed all the time. They all suck in the beginning. But the companies take feed back and make the products better and better. But just saying it sucks won't help the company or the person using it.


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## Tez3 (May 10, 2011)

puunui said:


> The biggest issue is motivation or incentive. Why would an MMA fighter want to compete at Taekwondo events? What's in it for them?


 

Many, here at least, _have_ competed in TKD comps and have moved onto MMA so it wouldn't be something new for them. I do think competitive TKD such as at Olympic level is more a younger persons sport (supple and springy lol) while MMA tends to be for the bit older types who want to go for the very full contact style. We do have a lot of MMA fighters who will fight kickboxing and/or Muay Thai as well though and Judoka who still compete in Judo comps. I know one MMA fighter ( fought in UFC) who fights in karate comps and does kata comps too. I think the lack of protective gear appeals to some as well and the freedom of using many different techniques, it's just what you like doing.

If the electonic system is a fault how does that explain Sarah Stevenson's *third* World title?


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## armortkd (May 10, 2011)

puunui said:


> Actually if you are talking about Portland Nationals, hosted by GM Tae Hong CHOI, it was 1991, not 1990. I was there too. OTC did win that year at Nationals, Juan Moreno, Scott Fujii and May Pejo won gold for example. As for new yells and fancy technique, I don't know what you are talking about because they pretty much stuck to the basics (roundhouse kick to the body), but they did use a lot of steps, which was pretty new for a lot of people back then.
> 
> http://assets.usoc.org/assets/docum...e/20710/1991_Sr__Nat_l_black_belt_results.pdf


  Scott Fujii was with Hyon Lee in 91.


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## mango.man (May 10, 2011)

puunui said:


> You know what? I sincerely hope that Europe takes the lion's share of the medals in Taekwondo at the 2012 Olympics. Because if that happens, perhaps the European IOC members will vote to keep Taekwondo in in 2013.



I thought that TKD was bundled up with a bunch of other sports the last time voting took place and all the sports in that bundle were locked in to the Olympics through 2020.

Maybe I am wrong.  Hey it wouldn't be the first time.


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## puunui (May 10, 2011)

armortkd said:


> Scott Fujii was with Hyon Lee in 91.




Ok, OTC alumni then. I think Master Scott Fujii is an underrated, unappreciated gem of a coach. He has a brilliant Taekwondo mind, and would be one of my first choices if we ever started up the OTC Resident Athlete program. I don't know if he would accept or not. He is not so much a technical coach as he is strategic and psychological. And he probably has one of the best, if not the best Taekwondo specific athletic training programs out there.


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## ralphmcpherson (May 10, 2011)

puunui said:


> The biggest issue is motivation or incentive. Why would an MMA fighter want to compete at Taekwondo events? What's in it for them?


An olympic gold medal. I dont know what its like over there, but win a gold medal as an aussie and you are set for life and a household name. Try doing that as an MMA fighter. I heard somewhere that GSP was considering representing canada at the olympics for wrestling, no doubt he is doing it for the same reasons.


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## puunui (May 11, 2011)

ATC said:


> My point was that the model T Ford was a real machine that did not work all that well and was not as good as a horse but that did not stop the progress. Now looking back who would ride a horse as their means of transportation. I can't equate a fictional thing to a real thing.



And my point is that a working LaJust system is a fictional thing.




ATC said:


> Point being, EPP is here to stay, you must change and grow with this system and others to come. LaJust is just the one system and one of the first to be used in production. Will it be around in 10 years? Who knows but something will and LaJust paved the way. 1st Gen stuff never is the best. Just look at the fist Mac's or PC's They were rediculious. The Iphone has more computing power than anything that got us to the moon.



Again, you seem to think that I am against electronic scoring. I am not. What I am against is LaJust because it doesn't work. And LaJust isn't first generation. They recently "upgraded" it and it is worse. 




ATC said:


> You can't spend your time complaining once the milk is spilt, you can only clean it up. If all the energy use in simply complaining was use to help fix or even create and make a better system was use then we would be well ahead of what we have today.



Maybe you can't spend your time trying to change things at a policy making level, and perhaps you shouldn't be trying to. But others who occupy a different station and are on a different part of the journey can, and should. I'm just letting MT members know what is going on. I don't expect anyone to do anything. If you don't wish to know what is going on, then don't read my posts dealing with those issues. 




ATC said:


> Maybe we should all be sending in list of issue with the system and asking for the fixes and not just complaining that my guy thinks this sucks.



The only person who is complaining is you, apparently because you don't wish to hear about things that are going on. As for sending in lists of issues, I would leave that sort of thing to your instructor. That is his level of responsibility, not yours. You could give him your list for him to consider, but what he does with your suggestions is his business, not yours. 




ATC said:


> I work in High Tech. I see products developed all the time. They all suck in the beginning. But the companies take feed back and make the products better and better. But just saying it sucks won't help the company or the person using it.



People have told LaJust about the problems, even though they had to have known about it even before anyone said anything. They came out with a newer system and it was worse.


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## puunui (May 11, 2011)

armortkd said:


> Scott Fujii was with Hyon Lee in 91.




I asked about this and was told that Scott Fujii left OTC after he won Nationals. So he was an OTC member when he won gold in 1991.


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## ATC (May 11, 2011)

puunui said:


> The only person who is complaining is you, apparently because you don't wish to hear about things that are going on. As for sending in lists of issues, I would leave that sort of thing to your instructor. That is his level of responsibility, not yours. You could give him your list for him to consider, but what he does with your suggestions is his business, not yours.


hhmmmm... Thank you for the conversation Sir.:asian:


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## armortkd (May 11, 2011)

puunui said:


> I asked about this and was told that Scott Fujii left OTC after he won Nationals. So he was an OTC member when he won gold in 1991.


 Scott may have went to do some training at the OTC team prior to 91 Nationals, but he wasn't on OTC team. Hyon and Scott were sporting those killer USA flag jackets, and OTC had some awful purple, orange, and white warmups. Scott ripped open Johnny Suzuki's eye from Hawaii, and Hyon was coaching him. They both came over to talk to me when my Hawaii teammate Manny Omar won the High Board Breaking Contest.


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## armortkd (May 11, 2011)

puunui said:


> Ok, OTC alumni then. I think Master Scott Fujii is an underrated, unappreciated gem of a coach. He has a brilliant Taekwondo mind, and would be one of my first choices if we ever started up the OTC Resident Athlete program. I don't know if he would accept or not. He is not so much a technical coach as he is strategic and psychological. And he probably has one of the best, if not the best Taekwondo specific athletic training programs out there.


 Agreed, Scott would be a great coach but just see him moving out there. I'd like to see a male and female coach if there was a new OTC Resident Athlete program. It might help with all of the previous things that were going on that killed it's reputation. My pick would be Elizabeth "Liz" Evans!!! She has been a World Cup Champion, has the respect from everyone, and she is very professional. I remember a conversation with Han Won Lee, and he told me that Liz was his favorite athlete of all time because was always professional. Yet women's featherweight wasn't selected for the 2000 Olympics and that division was strong (Simona Hradil as well), but that's a story for another time =)


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## puunui (May 11, 2011)

armortkd said:


> Scott may have went to do some training at the OTC team prior to 91 Nationals, but he wasn't on OTC team. Hyon and Scott were sporting those killer USA flag jackets, and OTC had some awful purple, orange, and white warmups. Scott ripped open Johnny Suzuki's eye from Hawaii, and Hyon was coaching him. They both came over to talk to me when my Hawaii teammate Manny Omar won the High Board Breaking Contest.



I believe Scott was a resident athlete, as was Hyon Lee, for at least a year. Could be wrong. Johnny Suzuki had no business competing at Nationals; he was our State Association treasurer back when I was Secretary General and Vice President, fifteen/twenty years ago. He worked at a bank and got us a free checking account but dropped out of Taekwondo for at least ten years. I haven't thought about Manny Amar in a very long time. I tried to visit him in Hilo fifteen or sixteen years ago when he had that basement dojang, but then he was gone. He never participated in our State Association. Know what happened to him?


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## armortkd (May 14, 2011)

puunui said:


> I believe Scott was a resident athlete, as was Hyon Lee, for at least a year. Could be wrong. Johnny Suzuki had no business competing at Nationals; he was our State Association treasurer back when I was Secretary General and Vice President, fifteen/twenty years ago. He worked at a bank and got us a free checking account but dropped out of Taekwondo for at least ten years. I haven't thought about Manny Amar in a very long time. I tried to visit him in Hilo fifteen or sixteen years ago when he had that basement dojang, but then he was gone. He never participated in our State Association. Know what happened to him?


 Manny Amar won Silver at 94 Nationals and Gold at the US Olympic Festival. He went back and forth from Hawaii and Michigan to train. Manny struggled with making 118 lbs. I last saw him at Junior Olympics in late 90s, and he even competed at the Festival (?) of the Kings on the Big Island!!!!!! BTW, my stepfather is Jim Arrington and my half-brother is David Arrington.........


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## Dad of lady Taz! (May 15, 2011)

After watching the fights on Dartfish, I have come to a few conclusions.
Yes, there were some bad calls, points that weren't scored etc. But the bottom line is that this year...We Just Were Not Good Enough! We can pass the buck until the ink wears off, but that is the fact. So the best way to fix it is to evaluate, come up with solutions and implement a plan of action. Here are a few of my suggestions...

1. Limit the role of National Team Coaches
They should have an advisory role. Scout the competition, consult with the athletes own coach  (you know, the one who has trained them to get to this point) so that they can start working on what is needed long before the week of competition. 
In addition, the athlete should be allowed to choose the coach that goes with them to competitions. The national coach will be used as a backup in case their coach is unable to attend.

2. You must foster grass roots
In my opinion we are not helping to develop potential great athletes because our system is only going to support you if you are a proven winner. This usually comes down to who can afford to go to the most events and "camps" (hey rubbing elbows helps too.) But what is missing is a true scouting effort. A system that has real incentives that will allow those without the means but talent to develop so that we can get the best athletes possible...not just the best who could afford it.

3. Treat the athletes better
Money isn't everything, sometimes it comes down to how you treat people. Small incentives that cost you nothing but a little forethought like....
a. If a Jr athlete makes team....they should get a waiver for the next year's qualifier.
b. If you make the team trials (JO & Nationals) you should not have to pay to participate...Dumb.
c. Stop waiting until people have begun signing up for events to start implementing rule changes or the more common...releasing the details. This is not only rude but it's...RUDE! and shows a lack of respect to the membership.
d. Be more helpful. I get so tired of calling USAT and getting the old "I don't Know". It's your job! I called once to get an answer to a simple question. "What is the minimum age to participate in taekwondo at the Olympics" It took me two weeks of calling back and forth to get answer because people didn't know.

There is much more but I want to try and keep this constructive. Lastly I want to say something regarding the little "talk" that our athletes received in Korea. I believe that they did their best. Watching the fights, every fighter that I was familiar with fought their fight. And unfortunately it wasn't good enough. For you to berate them for their efforts is senseless. That's like blaming a Chevy for not being a Ferrari! You want to improve it, roll up your sleeves and get under the hood.


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## puunui (May 15, 2011)

armortkd said:


> Manny Amar won Silver at 94 Nationals and Gold at the US Olympic Festival. He went back and forth from Hawaii and Michigan to train. Manny struggled with making 118 lbs. I last saw him at Junior Olympics in late 90s, and he even competed at the Festival (?) of the Kings on the Big Island!!!!!!



I want to say that Festival of the Kings is held on Maui, not the Big Island. 




armortkd said:


> BTW, my stepfather is Jim Arrington and my half-brother is David Arrington.........



I remember Jim Arrington and his son David. I thought David had the talent to medal at nationals, if not vie for the national team. Last I heard, your step father was up in Washington State somewhere. He tried to make a play for our state president position back in 91 or 92, somewhere in there, which didn't go too well for him. He ended up leaving soon thereafter and his student Leon Oliver who had a school in Wahiawa ended up paying for it.


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## puunui (May 15, 2011)

ATC said:


> hhmmmm... Thank you for the conversation Sir.:asian:



I never called any of my teachers or seniors "Sir". That was never part of the language of any of the schools that I have been a student at, and none of my teachers or seniors ever asked that I use that term.


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## armortkd (May 16, 2011)

puunui said:


> I want to say that Festival of the Kings is held on Maui, not the Big Island.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 You're right, the Festival was on Maui. David was on the 96 US Junior National Team. He did fight Seniors in 95 and lost to Paul Nelson from the Army team in the quarterfinals I believe. David could of been on Senior Team, and he was asked to go to OTC. But after Sang Lee sent us a letter stating that the International Exchange was cancelled. Jim made some calls and made a formal complaint because he knew that the USOC set aside $60,000 just for this. David made his own decision to stop competing and play basketball instead.

As for Jim and the Hawaii Pres position, that was a bunch of horse manure. I was there when Ik Mu Kang, Bart Gonzales, Walter Harrington, & 1-2 others was there . Lee from the Big Island had been Prez and hosted Hawaii States prior. Ik Mu Kang was ITF and was under Unified TKD Assoc. My stepfather Jim at the time was a 4th almost 5th dan, an International Referee, and had many connections at the Kukkiwon, KTA, ATU, Spain, and ETU. But Ik Mu Kang was an old buddy of Sang Lee. USTU Pres Kyongwon Ahn called Jim personally so he would be Vice President for Hawaii. Jim attended the USTU State Presidents meetings in 91. As for my personal coach Leon Oliver, he pushed David and me SOOOOO HARD!!!! When Jim got orders to Florida, Mr. Oliver lost Jim as his coach/mentor. Dae Sung Lee left OTC and moved back then Bobby Smith came onboard in 92. Jim got Hawaii organized for the state tournament, referee training, and junior/senior camps for JOs/Nationals. As a side note, Jim was the 1st Taekwondo instructor to be inducted in the Hawaii Karate Congress and was the 1st TKD commissioner of the Aloha State Games.


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## ATC (May 16, 2011)

puunui said:


> I never called any of my teachers or seniors "Sir". That was never part of the language of any of the schools that I have been a student at, and none of my teachers or seniors ever asked that I use that term.


Well we say Sir, Sir.


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## puunui (May 17, 2011)

armortkd said:


> As for Jim and the Hawaii Pres position, that was a bunch of horse manure.I was there when Ik Mu Kang, Bart Gonzales, Walter Harrington, & 1-2 others was there .



From what I remember, Master Arrington wanted to hold an election for the position. As one of the few registered USTU schools with at least 35 registered members, I had a vote. Master Arrington tried to set up a meeting with me and I went but he never showed up. The election never happened and President Kang was reappointed as President. I think this was around 91 or so. Walter Herrington was the one who brought me into the state association and recommended that I serve as Secretary General. Bart Gonzales was Mandy Meloon's first instructor, up through 1st Dan. 




armortkd said:


> Lee from the Big Island had been Prez and hosted Hawaii States prior.



By the 1990's, Master LEE Soo Jang was winding down from USTU politics. Great senior to me, he gave me GM LEE Won Kuk's book. He just offered it to me one day out of the blue. 




armortkd said:


> Ik Mu Kang was ITF and was under Unified TKD Assoc. My stepfather Jim at the time was a 4th almost 5th dan, an International Referee, and had many connections at the Kukkiwon, KTA, ATU, Spain, and ETU. But Ik Mu Kang was an old buddy of Sang Lee.



President Kang did have a relationship with President Elect Lee when both lived in New York state. However, to be fair, that wasn't the basis for making Master Ik Mu Kang our State President. The main reason was because he had the most schools and the most students. Bart Gonzales, Walter Herrington, Bob Smith, Johnny Suzuki, and others were all under Master Kang and they brought the bulk of the students to our meager State Championships back then. So it made sense to select Master Kang to be our state president. 




armortkd said:


> USTU Pres Kyongwon Ahn called Jim personally so he would be Vice President for Hawaii. Jim attended the USTU State Presidents meetings in 91.



That was President Ahn's way. He generally tried to hold the peace between factions and that was his solution to the state president issue. Made sense to me. 




armortkd said:


> As for my personal coach Leon Oliver, he pushed David and me SOOOOO HARD!!!! When Jim got orders to Florida, Mr. Oliver lost Jim as his coach/mentor.



When did you move to Hawaii and when did you move to Florida? Once Master Arrington left, Leon Oliver and his two daughters were all alone. He slowly stopped participating and eventually moved to another state. Do you happen to know where he is now? Is his still active in Taekwondo? 




armortkd said:


> Dae Sung Lee left OTC and moved back then Bobby Smith came onboard in 92.



Bob was around before that, and Master Lee came back to Hawaii in 1993. When he arrived, things started to happen. 




armortkd said:


> Jim got Hawaii organized for the state tournament, referee training, and junior/senior camps for JOs/Nationals.



For a couple few years before he left. 




armortkd said:


> As a side note, Jim was the 1st Taekwondo instructor to be inducted in the Hawaii Karate Congress and was the 1st TKD commissioner of the Aloha State Games.



I think Master Kyo Yun LEE (ITF instructor who was murdered in the 70's, who Master Ik Mu Kang replaced in Hawaii) and Master Randy Chun (1st Taekwondo instructor in Hawaii, my first Taekwondo teacher) were the first members of the Hawaii Karate Congress.


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## puunui (May 17, 2011)

ATC said:


> Well we say Sir, Sir.




Yes, I know. It is yet another of the many differences between the way I learn and you learn, or more specifically, yet another difference between my relationships with my teachers and seniors, and your relationships with your teachers and seniors.


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## armortkd (May 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> From what I remember, Master Arrington wanted to hold an election for the position. As one of the few registered USTU schools with at least 35 registered members, I had a vote. Master Arrington tried to set up a meeting with me and I went but he never showed up. The election never happened and President Kang was reappointed as President. I think this was around 91 or so. Walter Herrington was the one who brought me into the state association and recommended that I serve as Secretary General. Bart Gonzales was Mandy Meloon's first instructor, up through 1st Dan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 There was a meeting at that rec center where Walter Harrington and Beatrice taught at. Jim had a USTU club with over 35 members as well. There was a vote, and I remembered Kang and Jim going for a walk and Kang asking Jim to be Vice Pres. USTU stepped in and appointed Kang as Pres. Other than numbers because Harrington, Gonzales, and a few others where under Unified, he has no business being Pres.

Loean Oliver has always lived in Hawaii since 89. His daughters moved away. His wife retired from the Army. As for Jim, he was in the Air Force and was very busy with the first Persian Gulf War then got orders to Florida in June 92.


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## puunui (May 17, 2011)

armortkd said:


> There was a meeting at that rec center where Walter Harrington and Beatrice taught at. Jim had a USTU club with over 35 members as well. There was a vote, and I remembered Kang and Jim going for a walk and Kang asking Jim to be Vice Pres. USTU stepped in and appointed Kang as Pres. Other than numbers because Harrington, Gonzales, and a few others where under Unified, he has no business being Pres.



President Kang also was Kukkiwon certified as well, so he fulfilled all of the qualifications for USTU State President. I don't think there were enough registered schools with the required 35 registered members to hold an election, at least at that time. 




armortkd said:


> Leon Oliver has always lived in Hawaii since 89. His daughters moved away. His wife retired from the Army.



So he still lives in Hawaii? I would have never known. Haven't seen him in years. 




armortkd said:


> As for Jim, he was in the Air Force and was very busy with the first Persian Gulf War then got orders to Florida in June 92.



When did you guys move to Hawaii? Is he still teaching?


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## wisemanrax (May 23, 2011)

I don't think having MMA fighters ( professional or amateur ) competing in Taekwondo in order to represent the US makes sense. Most of them regard Taekwondo as a useless ballet dance with no power in their kicks ( or atleast that is what their instructors tell them ), so you will have a hard time actually convincing them to come over to compete. They consider Muay Thai, BJJ, Boxing, and Wrestling to be the fundamental of Mixed Martial Arts. They would have to change everything about the way they fight ( stances, distance ) and put in a lot of time for a sport that does not pay them at all.

As far as the fighters at the championships, they did their best and next time they will try to do better. Maybe our strategy should be going for knockouts at Worlds instead of points ( The Turkish fighter as an example ). Your opponent cannot really win when he/she is unconscious.


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## ratwood969 (Nov 1, 2011)

armortkd said:


> Manny Amar won Silver at 94 Nationals and Gold at the US Olympic Festival. He went back and forth from Hawaii and Michigan to train. Manny struggled with making 118 lbs. I last saw him at Junior Olympics in late 90s, and he even competed at the Festival (?) of the Kings on the Big Island!!!!!! BTW, my stepfather is Jim Arrington and my half-brother is David Arrington.........



I had a good chat with your stepfather today...He was my TKD instructor in Guam in the 80's. I blew out my shoulder and had to drop out as a brown belt. Since then, I got my shoulder fixed and started back up when my son was old enough to go to class. I am testing this weekend for my 1st Degree and my son for Cho Dan Bo. Good to hear that David got a gold medal eventually; I was in class with him when he was about 10 or so.


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## ATACX GYM (Nov 2, 2011)

ATC said:


> No national support for out athletes. Other conuntries support their athletes, we make ours foot their own way or hope that some private donations or sponcerships happen. By doing this we lose a great many possible hopefuls. I am sure there are some great athletes and fighters out there better than the ones we sent but when you can't get the oppertunities due to financial woes then you lose those people. The sad thing is that you don't even know what you lost.
> 
> Not to mention the crazy politics in play with our NGB.





Cosign all day


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