# "Sticky Hands'



## Bob Hubbard (Sep 14, 2002)

I've seen this done a couple of different ways.... 1 way, very smooth, the other very 'mechanical', stuttery, etc.

Which is right?  Also, can anyone shed some insites on how to learn this when one doesn't have access to a qualified instructor?

:asian:


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## Richard S. (Sep 14, 2002)

mechanical=beginner, fluid=not a beginner.  Chi Sao is a trip. theres one handed and two handed. and  im sorry, but i dont know how to explain the movements in a way thats concise and easy to translate into movement. i can tell you that its the key to Wing Chun, and if you can find a knowledgeable traning partner or teacher who can help, when you understand it your infighting will go up to a whole new level.............respects


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## tilsonsifu (Sep 14, 2002)

Chi Sao is an every changing aspect of training through-out Wing Chun system.  In the beginning chi sao is based on 'mechanical' translation the of Sil Lum Tao form.  This is the single hand part of the training.  This aspect is done from a stationary neutral stance (yee jee kim yeung mah) with the practitioners facing each other using the parallel (right vs. left) arm.  This is, and should be, very planned and formal, just as the Sil Lum Tao form.  Structure, centerline, contact reflex, and muscle memory are paramount in single hand chi sao. The next aspect of single hand chi sao is the cross arm (right vs. right or left vs. left) chi sao.  In this phase the practitioners are in stationary front stance (bi jong) with cross wrists touching.  These are alson great  to train blindfolded.  As the training continues into the Chum Kil form these two types of Chi Sao (cross and parallel) begin to use correct footwork and two hands.  Coordinating the footwork to support the hands develops the practitioners into a more combat oriented aspect of the art.  A great book on this part of the training is "Advanced Wing Chun" by GM Cheung.  The next part of chi sao is two handed.  This part of the system uses skill from all 3 empty hand forms and all previous chi sao.

As for the second question; chi sao is impossible to learn without a sifu and training partner.  You can mimic moves learned on video, but as far as contact reflexes and timing, a major reason for chi sao, that is impossible to mimic.  Good luck finding a sifu.  Where are you located??

Thanks


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 14, 2002)

Thanks for the info folks. 

I'm in Buffalo NY (US for our non-US viewers).   Place has TKD schools on every block, but Chinese arts are few and far apart.


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## arnisandyz (Sep 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Richard S. _
> 
> *mechanical=beginner, fluid=not a beginner.  *


*


I don't kow a whole lot about WC and have never formally been trained in it, but I am just curious, in the advanced stages, is it ALL smooth and fluid or do you sometimes purposely deliver different energy to elicit a response that you can then exploit?  We do somewhat similar flow drills in FMA, and we want to achieve a smooth flow, but sometimes when training sombody and i want them to react a certain way, I give them an energy in such a way that I have an idea what might be returned.  It is, in a sense, baiting. It becomes a chess game. Is it the same in Wing Chun?

Thanks*


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 23, 2002)

I believe the ideas are similar.... from what I've seen, 'Chi Sao' is similar in intention to 'Tapi Tapi'.  Of course, I may be way off base as I only have a beginners exposure to both.


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## Baoquan (Sep 24, 2002)

Chi Sao...

I don't know how it works, but it does. Years ago i had a chance to do some light sparring with a WC guy, and he was ALL OVER my hands..i couldn't get a clean line on him. Frustrating as hell.

Afterwards i asked what he was doing to hand me my @ss so efficiently, and he told me "Chi Sao", and showed me some sensitivity drills....and i knew i had to learn it. 

Unfortunatley, there are no WC schools in my vicinity, so i haven't...yet.

B


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## Richard S. (Sep 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


  absolutely.  it just seems to me that in a video the producers would want to show WC in the best light possible. dont get me wrong, i can understand them pairing a senior with a junior to show what the learning process is like, but like i said-the best light possible..........respects.


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## arnisador (Dec 31, 2002)

Shotokan has a variant of sticky hands, I understand.

Seems like neat stuff.


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## ZIM (Jan 4, 2003)

> I've seen this done a couple of different ways.... 1 way, very smooth, the other very 'mechanical', stuttery, etc.
> 
> Which is right? Also, can anyone shed some insites on how to learn this when one doesn't have access to a qualified instructor?



Ermmm...I don't quite want to say one is right or wrong becoz, while I might look at another's chi sao and say it's mechanical, I may in fact be missing something. That said, the goal is to be smooth! Chi sao is about sensitivity- one can not be sensitive if they are mechanical. 
OTOH, if I FEEL the other persons hands, I can tell you, despite any looks to the contrary, whether the person is right or wrong, smooth or not, mechanical or natural. This is never open to debate.

To delve into why that is: when i'm doing chi sao, the fists/whatever form themselves through what is given or 'said' to me. I don't go into it with any intention to do a particular technique. If I did, it would be "now, how can I get this fist into him? Ah! I'll do this first" In which case I'm no longer 'listening'. Hope thats clear.

As for training on your own: WC already has as much as it can for that. Within SLT & other forms, every time you connect the bridges together, thats sensitivity. Every time you do the dummy, thats also sensitivity. But you need a partner to truly learn it. 

A sifu is needed to clarify what to look for in chi sao- it is absolutely not a sparring-oriented thing. You are learning to listen, that is all. Many ppl have great luck with doing tai chi to develop this skill in addition to WC. Also, many southern arts have variants. I know that Buffalo has a few Hung Gar schools with good reputations- they may be of help.
:asian:


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## HarvesterofSorrow (Jan 5, 2003)

ah yes, Chi Sao is probably the funnest drill in WC.  Unfortunately like the others have said, you need a sifu or some other person that knows chi sao in order to learn.
PS  Blind-folded chi sao is a trip.  I'm not to good at it yet, but I get my butt handed to me on a regular basis in blind-folded chi sao.  Ya got to try it if you haven't.


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## bart (Jan 8, 2003)

Hey There,


Let me pipe in here backwards.



> ..can anyone shed some insites on how to learn this when one doesn't have access to a qualified instructor?



The thing about Chi Sao is that it is inextricably Wing Chun and you're not going to be able to learn it unless you're going to give learning the whole shabang a go. Chi Sao, as the other guys have mentioned is an exercise in theories and techniques laid out in the forms, all of them. The biggest step for me that locked that  concept into place was after I learned the Bil Gee. 

But there's good news. You can learn Wing Chun from qualified instructors via seminars and such. I've met people who've learned this way and they are quality WC practitioners. Wing Chun is more theory based than other arts. Thus I feel it lends itself to this king of training more than others. This link has some schools in NY:

http://www.wingchun.org/text/schools/usa/ny.html

This other link has some schools in Ontario:

http://www.wingchun.org/text/schools/can/ontario.html

They may have distance programs where you go to them once a month etc and then they train you and you work on things away from there by yourself or with other people, like a study group. 



> I've seen this done a couple of different ways.... 1 way, very smooth, the other very 'mechanical', stuttery, etc.
> Which is right?



I would say that overall you want it to be smooth. There are some exercises in Chi Sao that will look less fluid than others, but they all have a certain purpose. One thing about Chi Sao is that the stuttery part doesn't matter as much as the direction of the force at the contact points. So they may both be correct depending on the practitioner as well as the style of WC. 

Also, I'm going to be out that way this summer for a couple weeks, Niagara Falls area. I'd be happy to drop in and work on that Chi Sao a bit.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 8, 2003)

Kool.  Would be greatly apreciated.  WNY is just majorly WC deprived.  Travel is tight at the moment for me, but spring time I hope to check out some of those other options folks mentioned.

Thank you everyone  :asian:


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