# To Shindo Quest Home Study



## Shogun (May 17, 2004)

Is anyone currently taking Mr. Hayes home courses? To shindo, classical Ninjutsu, or monthly lessons? I just ordered my first video. I am starting the Koto ryu Koppojutsu Shoden Kata series.


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## Jay Bell (May 19, 2004)

I haven't seen the videos at all.  Let us know how it goes.


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## Shogun (May 19, 2004)

> I haven't seen the videos at all. Let us know how it goes.


This I will do. I should be getting my first vid soon. The response for recommended learning time is 6-9 months, but they told me it would'nt take near that long, due to my experience. I pretty much bought them because they look like good watchin videos. If they are good quality, I'll probably recommend them to everyone (thats what I do).


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## Shogun (May 25, 2004)

Right on the SKH quest website, it claims they won't take the money out until the item has been shipped. well this is not true. they took the money out of my account, and its been 8 days and nothing has been shipped. no tracking #. no email confirm. nothing. They also take about 4 days to respond to an email regarding MY money. I'm giving them another 2 days before I put Mr hayes "quest" on my bad list. I might just tell Ashida Kim about this. LOL


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## MJS (May 25, 2004)

Have you tried contacting the school directly??  Maybe someone can answer your questions for you.

Let us know how you make out.

Mike


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## Shogun (May 25, 2004)

I will contact thru phone. that was going to be my next move. unfortunately, they do not have a 1-800 #, and my home phone is down, so......I guess I could use my cell.


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## Enson (Jun 18, 2004)

wondering what happened with the to shin do course? did you ever get it? was it any good?


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## Shogun (Jun 18, 2004)

oh yeah, almost forgot. Yes, I got them and they are great. They offer many Henke for the Kata demonstrated.


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## Enson (Jun 29, 2004)

i recently practiced with my brother who is a toshindo practicioner. good stuff. was really impressed by mr hayes. i like how he makes it practicle to use in today's society with the shouting "stop" and stuff. pretty impressive. my bro. used to practice jkd and switched over to toshindo. i think he likes it better.

peace


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## Shogun (Jun 29, 2004)

_Before I post this, be warned I am in no way saying JKD and Toshindo are related_

JKD and Toshindo share many similarities however. In Toshindo, one learns Kihon, and several Henke, and then "uses what works for them". JKD has this approach, as well. 

Yeah, how SKH uses the "stop it" commands when dominating his Uke is one of the best parts of the Tapes.

I might test soon. It is $45 though, and There is no free viewing allowed. only testing. if I fail, I have to test again.
it has been a little over a month, since practicing, but my experience should substantially reduce the time of training. Maybe another month just to be sure. I feel ready and confident however. It is only two kata, and I dont have to demonstrate Henke, although I probably will.


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## gmunoz (Jul 7, 2004)

I received my To-Shin Do Home Study Course within 6 days of ordering it!  Great stuff!  I am really anxious to get started and test when I'm ready.  

Gabe


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## Shogun (Jul 7, 2004)

Really good stuff. I do the classical though, not the modern.


Yoroshiku.


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## gmunoz (Jul 8, 2004)

How long ago did you start the Kihon (classical) curriculum?  How does it begin?  Is there a basics section for someone who is completely naive to martial arts or Taijitsu?

Gabe


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## Shogun (Jul 8, 2004)

I purchased the private video lessons(they are Shoden), so I am not sure about the Kihon level. However, SK Hayes is such a great source of info, that it really wont matter if you have experience. As always, anyone should also practice in a Dojo, in person. but the dvds/tapes are great on their own. I Did order the Kihon level, I just havent got it yet. Taijutsu is one of the best martial arts for beginners in my opinion. there is so much room for growth. because it works with the body, not against it as in other arts, it is easy to pick up. at the same time, it is one of the hardest to "master". any form of Taijutsu, IMO, is the best MA.


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## gmunoz (Jul 8, 2004)

Oh okay.  Those private ones are the monthly subscriptions that are sent by either VHS or DVD.  I thought about doing that but opted to do the entire To-Shin Do program since I'm such a rookie at this.  How long have you been doing MA?  Which styles of MA have you practiced?  I previously was practicing JKD, but didn't feel Gary Dill's program was "up to par" (my opinion only).  Still learning who folks are on this forum so please excuse my ingnorance.


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## Shogun (Jul 8, 2004)

It is good that you are new to the MA, actually. sometimes I get sidetracked in other arts, and cant concentrate on the art at hand. I have been doing various arts for 8 years, and mainly got the SKH videos for reveiw. They are certainly good, though.


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## shiro (Jul 30, 2004)

If You want the modern stuff go with the Toshin Do home study course If You want the classical (like Bujinkan) Go with His Classical Warrior Traning Course.
Tai jutsu
Kenjutsu
bojutsu
Shurikenjutsu 
All are Kihon With higher leavel to come.


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## gmunoz (Aug 4, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I might test soon. It is $45 though, and There is no free viewing allowed. only testing. if I fail, I have to test again.
> it has been a little over a month, since practicing, but my experience should substantially reduce the time of training. Maybe another month just to be sure. I feel ready and confident however. It is only two kata, and I dont have to demonstrate Henke, although I probably will.


Shogun,

How is the Home course stuff from Quest Center going?  Have you tested or are you getting ready yet?  Advise when you can.  Anyone else done the home cousre at any level?


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## Enson (Aug 4, 2004)

i've seen the stuff and its pretty interesting. alot of good information.


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## Turtle (Aug 4, 2004)

I don't know...I've seen the DVD's and they don't seem practical.


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## Shogun (Aug 4, 2004)

> mainly got the SKH videos for reveiw. They are certainly good, though.


This is still where I am. Not doing anything right now, as far as SKH goes. especially since I plan on attending a Bill Atkins Shihan seminar at the end of august. If I test, I might be banned from Booj training. Cant risk it.


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## Dale Seago (Aug 5, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> This is still where I am. Not doing anything right now, as far as SKH goes. especially since I plan on attending a Bill Atkins Shihan seminar at the end of august. If I test, I might be banned from Booj training. Cant risk it.



I wouldn't be too concerned about that at this point. 

I suspect that Soke feels that SKH has "gone his own way" (hell, he was saying exactly that to me as far back as mid-1989). . .but I seriously doubt that expelling either Hayes or people who train with him are very high on Soke's personal list of priorities.

On the other hand, if Hatsumi soke feels Hayes is on a different and not entirely compatible path, it may be a good idea to examine your own priorities. . .

BTW, I think you'll like Bill Atkins. He and I started at about the same time, literally just a few weeks apart, at the Stockton, California dojo twenty years ago. He's a superb practitioner, a gifted teacher, and a wonderful person. To give you a sense of his incredible compassion, he was Ralph Severe's teacher for a while.


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## Enson (Aug 5, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> i've seen the stuff and its pretty interesting. alot of good information.


i think someone has a personal vendetta against me. they gave me a negative hit for this thread! did i say something wrong? it said "JUST&qoute, good&quote. Show some respect". what the heck does that mean?


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## Turtle (Aug 5, 2004)

Actually, the DVD's are really good. They are very practical! I was just teasing gmumoz. I apologize. SKH does an excellent job demonstrating style, form, and technique, as well as explanation. 

Anyways, what is the whole stink about which art/style is the purest, and who is watered down or not. If you really take a look at the whole picture, you'll find that unless you are actually studying under Dr. Hatsumi, you can't say you are Bunjinkan. Even then, he has changed his style as well. Any other sensei, anshu, master is a branch of their sensei. You can't actually say that it is the original art since everyone is different and teaches different. I say stop bickering about who's style is purest like children and encourage everyone to perfect their own art/style so that it will benefit style, life and community.


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## gmunoz (Aug 5, 2004)

Thanx turtle for that clarification.  I especially agree with you regarding the need to stop bickering about who is and who isn't original.  Every time something gets appropriated by someone else, i.e. teaching and learning, then it gets altered at some level.  This includes everything in our society.  All we can do is do all we can do to minimize the drastic negative change and in turn utilize it to better our world - making it a better and safer place.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 5, 2004)

I agree with that to an extent turtle...

But if someone teaches you to make stew and you turn around and make pizza...

Well... Or Like the Hapkido practitioners calling their art "Ninjutsu"...  I can call my Pizza a stew... but in the end, its still a pizza.  

They may be good guys, their art may be solid... its just... different. 

I think, too... and this is just my opinion, so take this for what it's worth...

As an art, Ninjutsu (and specifically I am speaking of the X-Kans) really went thru a lot of (and still does) cr@p to try and legitimize itself... Denounching a lot of the "Ninja Image" changing the name to take Ninjutsu out... etc etc...

Practitoners of this art have been... well... subjugated by bad publicity, negative stereotyping, etc etc... and people coming along and "jumping on the  ninja bandwagon" and spreading more of that "false" image like Ashida Kim, Frank Dux... etc... hurt the legitamacy the art had strived for.  Can you really fault the practitioners of the art for being a bit defensive about people who come along and, well... for lack of a better term... slam them?

Sorry to take this off topic.


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## shiro (Aug 5, 2004)

If You look at What Mr. Hayes is teaching in His Kihon course and What Mr. Hatsumi or any Bujinkan System say Mr. Van Donks Homestudy it is as close as any two insturctors can teach what they have been taught by the same Instructor.
I do nto see why Mr. Hatsumi would be upset with Mr. Hayes I think He has returned closer to Mr. Hatsumi than He has for years with His Shadows of Iga class offered at the Quest centers Giving Rank through Mr. Hatsumi, and His kihon course in the classical systems, Seems Like Mr. Hatsumi would Be happy Mr. Hayes Has come back to the classical Systems in public.
Thank You


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## gmunoz (Aug 5, 2004)

No matter what happens, there will always be some "haters" out there.  Doesn't matter where one lives.  Jeolousy is always evident in some.


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## Enson (Aug 5, 2004)

my question for shiro is... if you went to the taikai last year in your quest gi... why is it that no one here that claim to be so close to hatsumi and bujinkan have said they saw you. it seems like they are avoiding the statement you made. i was under the impression like shogun that anyone cross training would be banned.

shiro did you really go in your quest gi? if so is there anyone here that can validate this comment? if not... why?


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## shiro (Aug 5, 2004)

I did go with my Quest Gi on I did train all three days I got my picture with Mr. Hoban Mr. Mastrom, Mr. Van Donk all were very nice. No one said anything bad to me, I did recieve a few looks from some but oh well. When I filled out my card I put Mr. Hayes down as my instructor. At the 2002 TaiKai One of Mr. Hayes Toshindo asst. Instuctors took her godan test given by Mr. Hatsumi You can see her demo with the other new godans.
I hope this helps. I will not hide who my Instrutor is I consider myself lucky to be accepted in His Dojo.
Have a Great Day


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## gmunoz (Aug 5, 2004)

Awesome Shiro!  Great attitude.


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## gmunoz (Aug 5, 2004)

Some "biscuit" posted a reputation to me listing my posts on this thread as spam.  They obviously can't read.  This thread is "To-Shin Do Quest Home Study".  I asked a question recently to someone if they had been able to test or if anyone else was involved in the home courses. 

Perhaps my question should have been posted on the TKD forum!


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## shiro (Aug 5, 2004)

I  do not study ToShinDo at this time. I plan on it further down the road. 
What I can say is that I was one of those people who read about Mr. Hayes ToShinDo In black belt Mag. And was thinking He sold out But in the few Years I have trained with Him In the Classical training I can say to everyone that I was 100 percent wrong. 
I am sure if You study everyday You will do fine. I would urge You to try to get some training with Mr. Hayes Hombu,Seminar,Festival e.t.c. Good Luck In You training Gmunoz. If I can help in anyway let me know.
Latter


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## Turtle (Aug 5, 2004)

I'm with you on that one Techno, but we are talking about Hayes here. I understand the Hapkido or any other style/art trying to jump on the ninjutsu bandwagon. Hayes has studied with Hatsumi and still teaches ninjutsu as well as his practical version.


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## Turtle (Aug 5, 2004)

Keep studying Toshindo gmunoz. Hold on to what you believe. After all, when everything else ends or goes away, or everyone abandons us, all we have left is what we believe. If everyone put more effort in what they believed, then there wouldn't be so much strife amongst martial artists. Whether they are generic or not, they believe in their style/art and that, to me, is what counts.


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## Enson (Aug 6, 2004)

Turtle said:
			
		

> . Whether they are generic or not, they believe in their style/art and that, to me, is what counts.


i'll second that!
and thanks shiro for clearing that up. helps alot. now i can read hayes' books again.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 6, 2004)

Turtle said:
			
		

> I'm with you on that one Techno, but we are talking about Hayes here. I understand the Hapkido or any other style/art trying to jump on the ninjutsu bandwagon. Hayes has studied with Hatsumi and still teaches ninjutsu as well as his practical version.



Well, yeah... but...

And guys, I know there has been discussion about this before, sorry...

I know (personally) a BB Instructor from one of Mr. Hayes Shadows Of Iga schools.  He explained to me the reason he left the organization was that at the start of ToShinDo Mr Hayes was teaching very short Seminars to TaeKwonDo schools and Certifying them to be ToShinDo schools... he disagreed with the practice... 

IF that is true, and at this point I have no reason to doubt it... I dont see Toshindo as much different than say Tew-ryu, or Warrior International, Where they combined some Taijutsu basics with Hapkido to make their art... 

The only credit for positive differences I will give Toshindo, is that THEY have a "master" with a strong Taijutsu background they can continue to learn from...


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## Enson (Aug 6, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Tew-ryu, or Warrior International,.


i like both organizations! lol! tew/bussey sensei are greeeaaat!!!! i have a perminission of school bashing again...:jediduel:


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## Enson (Aug 6, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I know (personally) a BB Instructor from one of Mr. Hayes Shadows Of Iga schools. He explained to me the reason he left the organization was that at the start of ToShinDo Mr Hayes was teaching very short Seminars to TaeKwonDo schools and Certifying them to be ToShinDo schools... he disagreed with the practice...
> 
> .


why would he choose tkd schools? why not tang soo do? at least that would have been the same initials. (tsd) or why would he not pull from the genbukan or the jenikan or the bujinkan students? (i wonder why there are not genbukan or jenikan students on here?) i don't know how true that is... i guess we can all say, "i know this one guy..." "and one time, at band camp". now we will have to know the name of this bb so that gmunoz or shiro can verify that.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 6, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> why would he choose tkd schools? why not tang soo do? at least that would have been the same initials. (tsd) or why would he not pull from the genbukan or the jenikan or the bujinkan students? (i wonder why there are not genbukan or jenikan students on here?) i don't know how true that is... i guess we can all say, "i know this one guy..." "and one time, at band camp". now we will have to know the name of this bb so that gmunoz or shiro can verify that.



Ok, I will give you his name if he ok's it.  Additionally, if you look at some other posts on here, some other people have stated simialr stories, so Its not just one guy.


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## Enson (Aug 6, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Ok, I will give you his name if he ok's it. Additionally, if you look at some other posts on here, some other people have stated simialr stories, so Its not just one guy.


oh i know  i've looked around and did a search when i first joined. but there is something i've learned in my short time here. if its not written on paper/or seen on video... it never happened. also some of those post 2 yrs ago don't really count because there wasn't really anyone else on here with different view. (i.e. gmunoz, shiro, turtle, genin andrew, etc.) it was just you and jaybell. although you guys are very saavy in the arts lets here from the hayes ryu practicioners.


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## Deaf (Aug 6, 2004)

shiro said:
			
		

> At the 2002 TaiKai One of Mr. Hayes Toshindo asst. Instuctors took her godan test given by Mr. Hatsumi You can see her demo with the other new godans.



That was Diana Walker.  The funny thing about it...she nor her hubby Steve Pavolvic (sp?) wore their quest center gi's or their belts!

Things that make you go...hmmmm!


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## Deaf (Aug 6, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> oh i know  i've looked around and did a search when i first joined. but there is something i've learned in my short time here. if its not written on paper/or seen on video... it never happened. also some of those post 2 yrs ago don't really count because there wasn't really anyone else on here with different view. (i.e. gmunoz, shiro, turtle, genin andrew, etc.) it was just you and jaybell. although you guys are very saavy in the arts lets here from the hayes ryu practicioners.




I will verify Techno's BB story about the TKD practioneers because I was there and that was the turning point for me.  The seminars were basically to get people to learn how to teach and operate a quest center.  The basic Toshindo cirriculum was taught and then at the festival these TKD practioneers were awarded higher rank than myself and others who have busted their asses off for their rank and for Hayes for well over 2 years!  And the damning thing is that the TKD practioneers really couldn't do the techniques properly, they actually used their TKD to finish off the techniques.

So just to let you know, it isn't some heresay story or rumor!

~Deaf~


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## Enson (Aug 6, 2004)

well... there you go! and that does make you go hmmmmm....


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## Cryozombie (Aug 6, 2004)

And again...

All I am saying by this is Blending a little Ninjutsu and Hapkido, or Blending a little Ninjutsu and Taekwondo... or hell... Ninjutsu and Ballet for that matter... does not make it Ninjutsu any more than Being an Engineer designing go karts and then becoming a Jeep certified mechanic makes you a Jeep Engineer.

You may be a great artist, you may be an effective fighter, hell your art may be phenominal... but its a different art.


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## shiro (Aug 6, 2004)

I can not speak of things that have happen before I came on the scen If those things happen I am sorry you trained Your butt off and got caught up in the middle of the change, I hope You found the school that fits who you are now(DEAF).
From what I have seen There are people Who try to avoid the conflict of Hayes/Bujinkan People To me there is no conflict, I am proud to be a student Of In my opinion the best Ninjutsu Instructor You can Have,Mr.Hayes (Nothing against anyone else.) And I refuse to hide that fact no matter were I am or who I talk to.
And if someone does not like me because of that well take a guess
Example. 2003 TaiKai A Bujinkan Instructor was working with Me a few others from a different school And I could tell He treated me different from the others.(He knew I train with Mr.Hayes) Anyway another Bujinkan BB came by and said something about the other Students too The first Instuctors Come back was "With those patches they are not going to get any help(American Bujinkan Dojo patch). Why punish a worthy student because You don"t agree with their Instructor or Org? Was't we all Bujinkan? and if they didn't like the Orgs Instuctor and thought they were no good What right does He have to judge Isn't that up to Mr. Hatsumi?


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## Enson (Aug 6, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> And again...
> 
> Being an Engineer designing go karts and then becoming a Jeep certified mechanic makes you a Jeep Engineer.
> 
> You may be a great artist, you may be an effective fighter, hell your art may be phenominal... but its a different art.


let me ask you a question... if you eat corn flakes plain or add some sugar... heck you can even add honey... aren't you still eating corn flakes?

sounds like "a glass half empty" mentality.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 6, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> let me ask you a question... if you eat corn flakes plain or add some sugar... heck you can even add honey... aren't you still eating corn flakes?
> 
> sounds like "a glass half empty" mentality.



Yes... You are... What you are NOT eating by adding Honey is "Honey Bunches of Oats"

You see?  Adding a LITTLE (say, 6 months worth, at the outside) Ninjutsu to Taekwondo does not make TaeKwonDo suddenly become Ninjutsu any more than adding a little honey to cornflakes makes it magically Honeybunches of oats.

But thats why its now Toshindo, not Ninjutsu, eh?  Even by Hayes own admission,  (found here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=256103&postcount=30 ) its not Ninjutsu, and when asked what Hatsumi's "involvement" in Toshindo is, he only states that its a Tribute to Hatsumi, and never actually states that Hatsumi is in any way involved in Toshindo except for having trained Hayes.

I don't even know why I am continuing to argue the point... I dont really care one way or the other... except for the fact that some Bujinkan students and instructors state "Yep I was there, Hatsumi said Toshindo is not acceptable" all the Hayes students have to chime in about how dumb us Bujinkan people are...


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## Cryozombie (Aug 6, 2004)

Here... Let me put it like this:

Regardless of Hayes past... According to what we have been told by people present with Hatsumi *THIS YEAR* The direction he has taken his art is different from the direction Hatsumi is going with it now.

If you study Toshindo, and show up for a Bujinkan event and are not allowed to participate, after announcing you are Toshindo, that is the perogative of Hatsumi-sensei and his representatives.  If He says, "The art you study is not my art" then that is the end of it.

No amount of denial on the part of the people studying Toshindo will change that.  

And, folks, thats not a Bujinkan thing... that would be the fact in any art. It doesnt decrease your skill level or knowlage... (And for the record, if you look at my posts, I have NEVER said Mr. Hayes has poor Taijutsu or is bad at what he does... I said I disapproved of the atmosphere of the Shadows of Iga school I attended, and the direction I see him taking the art now... as far as the commercial aspects go.) it just means you are no longer affiliated with said organization.

If you are fired from your chefs job at "Chez Paris"... it does not mean you are not a chef, just no longer a "Chez Paris" chef.  

If you stop studying Ninjutsu, and start Studying Toshindo, you are a Toshindo Practitioner, not a Ninjutsu practitioner.


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## Enson (Aug 6, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Yes... You are... What you are NOT eating by adding Honey is "Honey Bunches of Oats"
> 
> You see? Adding a LITTLE (say, 6 months worth, at the outside) Ninjutsu to Taekwondo does not make TaeKwonDo suddenly become Ninjutsu any more than adding a little honey to cornflakes makes it magically Honeybunches of oats.
> 
> I don't even know why I am continuing to argue the point... I dont really care one way or the other... except for the fact that some Bujinkan students and instructors state "Yep I was there, Hatsumi said Toshindo is not acceptable" all the Hayes students have to chime in about how dumb us Bujinkan people are...


now your getting me hungry and i'm on a low carb diet! hee hee!

what i'm saying is an art can be founded in "ninjutsu/corn flakes" and the master/instructor/whatever can add some effective "kicks/bananas", "techniques/strawberries", etc. it just makes it a glorified version of "ninjutsu/cornflakes". call it modern call it non-traditional... both would probably be correct.

it personally doesn't effect me either way. but, if what hayes does is a modern version of ninjutsu, and hatsumi allows him to live... then so be it. the trick is to realize not how to get out of the box... just that there is no box! hatsumi is not god, or the last living ninjutsu practicioner. if that was the case no one could ever claim to practice ninjutsu. hayes does what he thinks is right. he admits it is non traditional. but he also states that he was wrong for being so close minded in the past (when he used to trash bussey for doing his own thing with ninjutsu).


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## gmunoz (Aug 6, 2004)

This is a quote from the co-authored book between Hayes sensei and Dr. Hatsumi:

"However, the possibility of people confusing freedom fighter ninja anscestors with "the dark side of the force" is now even more politically awkward in light of inevitably unfortunate comparisons with terrorist murders of U.S. civilians by killers claiming to be religiously inspired "holy warriors" in the 21st century.

We knew this was coming, sadly enough.  That is why back in the 1990's Masaaki Hatsumi moved to divert attention away from our ninja background by changing the techniques and name to what he calls budo taijutsu.  For the same reason, I chose to refer to my SKH Quest Center martial art as To-Shin Do when I founded my schools in the mid-1990s."

BOTH Hatsumi and Hayes sensei have made alterations to their styles.  They are both ninjutsu - just with different target audiences, different targeted perils.  Both men have decided to make adjustments.  There are still adjustments being made to both!  We've already been over the "ever-evolving" topic.   It is all ninjutsu.


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## gmunoz (Aug 6, 2004)

I completely agree with you Enson.


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## shiro (Aug 6, 2004)

I think some of You are missing what I have been saying.
Yes Mr.Hayes has ToshinDo which is His Art based on His Ideas and what He thinks will help people today.
But!!!
For the people who want to study what he learned from Mr. Hatsumi He has classes for that too.
Some people in ToshinDo will not learn any classical Part of the art until the are Shodan.
Others just train in the Classical art. (9 Ryu Ha)
Some do both.
Bottom line Mr. Hayes still teaches what He learned from Mr. Hatsumi and gives out rank from Mr. Hatsumi!
I hope that clears it up some. It does not matter if Mr. Hayes teaches ToShin Do He still offers Classical too that is why I do not see what is all the fuss is about. And if Mr. Hatsumi bans Mr. Hayes and His students Then I feel He has made a bad call. I fill there might be people close to him that might sway Him that way. I don't see what Mr. Hayes is doing wrong as long as He offers both. A lot of Bujinkan Dojos put there owen spin on the art. As far as the money part At the TaiKai It was like going down the sunset strip. Everyone had something to sell All The Big Names.
Thanks


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## Shogun (Aug 6, 2004)

Lets just say this:


Nevermind


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## Cryozombie (Aug 6, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Lets just say this:
> 
> 
> Nevermind



Yeah.  I second that.

Sorry guys.


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## Kreth (Aug 9, 2004)

The turning point for me was when Hayes transmuted his Marishi Kai Instructor's Guild into the beginnings of Quest, and required a $10k franchise fee from those who wanted to participate. In the same newsletter, he insinuated that if you weren't willing to fork over the cash, then you were really just a hobbyist.

Jeff


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## shiro (Aug 9, 2004)

Let me say again that I can not speak on things that happen before I was on the scene. I am sorry if You feel like Mr.Hayes did something wrong to You and all the other people caught up in the change to His Quest Centers. But I did Not think It was right to attack Me on another thread because You thought I put Mr. Hatsumi Up to Your! god, Which My only intent( I never used the word Jesus) was to say I thought He was a great Man! And did not think he would attack someone from what I can tell thinks alot of Him,And carrys on His teachings.
Thank You


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## Enson (Aug 9, 2004)

i realize some could have issues for how things were done in the past. but things could change. people can sometimes change. if what hayes did in the past was wrong... well i guess thats what he felt he had to do. but i understand what shiro is saying. he is only speaking of what is going on now.
peace


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## shiro (Aug 9, 2004)

Thank You Enson.
I have tried not to attack anyone. I consider myself a bujinkan Student A long distance student of Mr. Hatsumi And proud to be a student of Mr. Hayes.
I feel if You are studying with Mr. Hatsumi Great!(wish I could) If You are studying with another Instructor that learned from Mr. Hatsumi Great! I myself consider myself Very! lucky to be able to be taught the classical Ryu-Ha by Mr. Hayes. Even the people Who can only train by Video/DvD because of what ever reason Good for them no matter we are all streams from the same rich source.
Good well towards all.
Those who are not against us are for us. 
Bujinkan Brotherhood? Do You think it could really ever happen or are We doomed to be like all the other orgs pointing fingers and holding on to hurt feelings.
Imagine.


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## gmunoz (Aug 9, 2004)

As a MA practitioner that is fairly new in this thing, I have become sort of disenchanted with the "my dad is stronger than your dad" comments that are posted with the facad of attempting to declare truth.  Most comments seem IMO to, as Shiro has mentioned, been to point fingers.  I agree with you Shiro and I do appreciate your posts.  I think that however someone is priveleged to be able to have access the teachings of Takamatsu and Dr. Hatsumi is great. Again, I reiterate, 'however' one has the privelege of accessing their teachings.  Traditional dojo, Long distance learning, Internet, however...  There are pros and cons obviously to all aspects.  Unfortunately, some can't attend a traditional dojo for cost or geographic reasons.  

In my scenario, I have no other access to the my preferred style other than long distance learning.  Perhaps one day there will be and I will definitely consider that as an option.  This thread, as it is entitled, refers to my situation and for me, To-Shin Do is fits my personality, motives/intentions, and appetite for the arts of which we are all considered.  Some choose to squander precious moments of life in their frivolous attempts at "declaring truth" - that is their perogotive.  However I find myself blessed to have the teacher I do, and the method in which I am learning; and for that I am thankful.  For the haters out there?  Well, God bless you - whomever that may be for you...


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## Turtle (Aug 10, 2004)

I don't think that they are hurt feelings, but just plain jealousy. Jealous of the fact that something more practical advanced from something else. I agree...ultimately it all comes from the same source. People have just found other ways to utilize what they have learned and are passing it on. Whether you are 1/8 native american or 3/4, your lineage still has native american. Same with other styles. Can't we all just get along!!!


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## shiro (Aug 10, 2004)

Thank You! Iam not sure Why some people can not talk with others with respect.
I thought by saying a few of the things that I know first hand about the Quest Center/Bujinkan thing I could help, I guess the feels some have is too deep and the bashing continues. When other people read some of the commits on here it is going to make all Martial Artist look bad I am sorry if Anything I have said offended anyone
Thank You


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## Don Roley (Aug 11, 2004)

shiro said:
			
		

> I could help, I guess the feels some have is too deep and the bashing continues.



Hmmm. I seem to have missed the bashing. Can you point me to concrete examples of it? I have seen people pass along the comments they have heard from Hatsumi and other Japanese, as well as others giving specific problems they have with the direction SKH has taken. But compared with Frank Dux, etc, the amount of "bashing" is rather lacking IMO.

And I have always maintainted that people wanting to know what Hatusmi thinks about SKH should ask him themselves. It seems amazing to me the amount of people that wish to argue that Hatsumi likes SKH but are scared to ask Hatsumi in private his opinion. I have talked to Hatsumi about SKH in private. The contents of that private conversation will remain private. At most, I urge others to ask for themselves or ask _in private and out of the public light_ what people who have lived in Japan and have relationships with the Japanese what they have heard.

I see that many who would defend Hayes seem reluctant to go to Hatsumi and ask him in private what he thinks. I believe that if they wish to know the full story instead of merely defending him blindly they need to wait until they ask in person to Hatsumi himself about the situation.

I do not expect that to happen based on what I see here.


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## shiro (Aug 11, 2004)

I hope there is a time when I can talk to Mr. hatsumi one to one. 
Read the post for the bashing. 
If You would like to pm me direct please do so Any thing you tell me is betwwen me and You. Just like the talk I had with Mr. Anderson.
Maybe He is filling You full of it (Remember What He said In His books I am Not above lying to a student if that is what they need. I realize that goes both ways before You say that.
Good Day


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## Don Roley (Aug 12, 2004)

shiro said:
			
		

> Read the post for the bashing.



What post? Are you talking about this thread? I cannot find anything here that really comes to the level of bashing. I see Kreth talk about how Hayes started requiring people to fork over 10k to have a dojo under him, I see Deaf talk about the problems he has with Hayes and things like that. I can not see anyone really bashing anyone else except for some comments by you, Turtle and Gabe that people are being jealous and such.

But to be honest, your last post was rather hard to understand. It was rather ACAMAC in its structure. Please try to do better next time so people can understand you. 

And I will point this out to you. I think a few people have got problems with the attitude that they have seen that Hatsumi is some sort of god- like figure that people have to go through Hayes in his role as Moses to recieve his wisdom. Your cryptic comment about how Hatsumi said he would lie to students seems to be a way of saying not to trust what he says, but trust what Hayes does. If that is what you were trying to hint at, I would expect you to deny it. Even if you deny that was your intention, it does seem that you are trying to minimize the impact of Hatsumi talking bad about Hayes.  But considering the way you wrote the entire post, it is hard to say what you are trying to convey.


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## TaiChiTJ (Feb 21, 2005)

They offer many Henke for the Kata demonstrated.




i hate to be such a dummy here but are Henke applications? You're saying he gives many self-defense applications for the Kata?


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## Cryozombie (Feb 21, 2005)

TaiChiTJ said:
			
		

> i hate to be such a dummy here but are Henke applications? You're saying he gives many self-defense applications for the Kata?


It means, er, Basically, Variations.


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## heretic888 (Feb 24, 2005)

Stephen Hayes said:
			
		

> "However, the possibility of people confusing freedom fighter ninja anscestors with "the dark side of the force" is now even more politically awkward in light of inevitably unfortunate comparisons with terrorist murders of U.S. civilians by killers claiming to be religiously inspired "holy warriors" in the 21st century.



"Freedom fighters"??


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## TaiChiTJ (Mar 3, 2005)

I got a chance to see some ToShinDo at the following site: 

http://www.quest-l.com/videos.php

It seems some practitioners are sending in videos of some of their practice. So I am beginning to understand a bit about what this is, how I fit it into my picture of the martial arts, and so forth. Interesting. I hope they put up more of these videos. This is educational for me. 

I want to see more where the attack is straight on and close, like a roundhouse or a straight punch, not where the attacker is running at the guy.

It is cool.


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## Flatlander (Mar 3, 2005)

Spectacular!  Thank you for the contribution; hopefully the site owners will continue to add new videos.

:asian:


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