# Are Martial Sports better for self defense than Martial Arts?



## Hanzou (Oct 23, 2018)

This question has been bugging me for awhile, and it mainly comes out of Rickson Gracie's arguments in regards to self defense BJJ vs Sport Bjj, and the age old Martial Art vs Martial Sport debate. When I think about what a martial sport can bring to a table vs a martial art, I simply have to give the edge to the sport. They develop speed, cardio, strength, and are applying their skills over and over again in a controlled environment. MMA is a sport that is currently giving traditional arts a run for their money. Their exponents just appear to be better fighters overall than their traditional peers. People constantly say that Boxing is great for self defense, and Boxing is definitely a sport at just about every level of practice.

Here is vid of a sport Bjj practitioner in a fight on a basketball court:






While he was consistently interrupted by bystanders, he still executed his moves well, and clearly controlled his opponent at every stage of the fight. 

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear what others think about this.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 23, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> When I think about what a martial sport can bring to a table vs a martial art, I simply have to give the edge to the sport. They develop speed, cardio, strength, and are applying their skills over and over again in a controlled environment.



Why can't TMA schools provide conditioning levels?

AND, _* I simply.*_... another sound bite sum it for my MMA school marketing prop.  No need to think about it folk, it's simple to me it should be simples for you!



Hanzou said:


> MMA is a sport that is currently giving traditional arts a run for their money. Their exponents just appear to be better fighters overall than their traditional peers. People constantly say that Boxing is great for self defense, and Boxing is definitely a sport at just about every level of practice.



What peers?  The ones who decide to compete in MMA forums?  Here we go again with sample bias.

Here's my question.  I don't why anyone would question the effectiveness and practicality of BJJ?  The Gracie propaganda that it was the best style of martial arts, nothing could compare is what sent BJJ's reputation spinning down.  A realistic assessment of Gracie BJJ in practice (even take commercial MMA as one test venue) would both highlight it's advantages and point out it's weaknesses too.

We've seen great demonstrations of grappling skills featuring BJJ in both MMA and Grappling only competitions.  In current MMA contests.  Certainly skills all applicable to self defense.  And particularly with that Gracie BJJ emphasis on the take down,  many, many self defense situatons do turn into ground fights on one score or another.


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## Martial D (Oct 23, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> This question has been bugging me for awhile, and it mainly comes out of Rickson Gracie's arguments in regards to self defense BJJ vs Sport Bjj, and the age old Martial Art vs Martial Sport debate. When I think about what a martial sport can bring to a table vs a martial art, I simply have to give the edge to the sport. They develop speed, cardio, strength, and are applying their skills over and over again in a controlled environment. MMA is a sport that is currently giving traditional arts a run for their money. Their exponents just appear to be better fighters overall than their traditional peers. People constantly say that Boxing is great for self defense, and Boxing is definitely a sport at just about every level of practice.
> 
> Here is vid of a sport Bjj practitioner in a fight on a basketball court:
> 
> ...


I get it, man. I think everyone that is ever going to get it, has got it. Got it? Good. 

Once you get it though, isn't the rivalry a little pointless? I mean, it's all martial arts.

TMA is blueprints and applied theory. You need this or nothing new will come, and basic foundation things will be lost.

MMA is the testing grounds, where ideas are put to the fire and refined. This is where fighters are created.

For martial arts to continue to get better as a whole, and to get better as martial artists in general, its good to be both. I am both a traditional martial artist and a sport martial artist..in the sense that I test things with gloves on in front of a moving opponent, and actually train my body for strength and cardio.


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## Steve (Oct 23, 2018)

Yes and no.


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## Hanzou (Oct 24, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I get it, man. I think everyone that is ever going to get it, has got it. Got it? Good.
> 
> Once you get it though, isn't the rivalry a little pointless? I mean, it's all martial arts.
> 
> ...



Perhaps I didn't make this clear. There ARE many TMAs that have competitive aspects, so I'm curious if that competitive aspect produces better martial artists simply by way of the benefits of sport. Further, do those sportive benefits translate into a better self defense result than a martial art that avoids competitive aspects completely?

Interestingly, I could see my style splinter into non-sport vs sport as the gap in competition widens and  Gjj simply doesn't produce as many competitors as Bjj because of the former's self defense focus. I'm curious if when that happens, will Gjj begin to devolve while competitive Bjj continues to evolve? If that happens, would Bjj be a better self defense option than Gjj?


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## MetalBoar (Oct 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> This question has been bugging me for awhile, and it mainly comes out of Rickson Gracie's arguments in regards to self defense BJJ vs Sport Bjj, and the age old Martial Art vs Martial Sport debate. When I think about what a martial sport can bring to a table vs a martial art, I simply have to give the edge to the sport. They develop speed, cardio, strength, and are applying their skills over and over again in a controlled environment. MMA is a sport that is currently giving traditional arts a run for their money. Their exponents just appear to be better fighters overall than their traditional peers. People constantly say that Boxing is great for self defense, and Boxing is definitely a sport at just about every level of practice.
> 
> Here is vid of a sport Bjj practitioner in a fight on a basketball court:
> 
> ...


As a starting point, if you look at my other posts I think you'll see I'm pretty positive about martial sports in general. With that out of the way I'm going to try to give you another perspective on this topic.

Just talking about self defense, as opposed to any of the other many reasons to practice a martial art or sport, I think a big part of the disconnect in these sport vs art conversations is what people mean by self defense. When I read these threads everyone throws around the term self defense but nobody clearly defines it and it's pretty obvious that very few people are talking about the same thing. 

One big divide seems to be between those who think a semi-consensual street fight is a self defense situation (what I'm going to call Type 1 SD) and those who think that street fights are best avoided through non-physical means. If a street fight seems like the most common self defense situation for you then of course martial sports seem like the best thing for self defense because a street fight (like this video) is a lot like an MMA fight, except your opponent is frequently not as skilled. 

If your definition of physical self defense (and by that I mean ignoring conflict avoidance, de-escalation, situational awareness, and other approaches to preventing violence altogether) ISN'T about street fights then things aren't as clear. Frequently, people seem to be talking about unexpected, completely non-consensual assaults and that the goal in this case is to minimize the risk of injury and legal complications (what I'm going to call Type 2 SD). 

In a lot of Type 2 SD situations, what might be most helpful is enough stand up grappling and striking skills to avoid being taken out or down and to make space to run as early in the encounter as possible if it can't be avoided altogether. On top of that, enough strength and stamina to sprint for a couple of blocks at high speed would be really valuable. Could MMA and related sports arts provide those skills? Sure, and so could a number of appropriately taught traditional arts. 

Either way, from my understanding of motor learning theory, these skills need to be taught specifically for this purpose if the students want to optimize their skills for self defense. Of course at that point you're starting to leave the realm of sports even if you're basing the training on MMA fundamentals. Also, please note that I didn't say I could point to anyone in particular who's providing better training for this than MMA sport training, just that there are better ways to approach this in theory and some people believe that their training is doing so and some few of them are probably right.

If you have a reasonable expectation that you're going to get mugged or assaulted by an armed and potentially murderous assailant (Type 3 SD?), you probably shouldn't be wasting your time on martial arts or sports at all and instead either make different lifestyle choices, or if that's not possible (and you live in the US), buy and carry a suitable handgun and get really good at using it. Also, don't forget to take some classes on weapon retention and really practice it.

The other thing that people don't talk about is the difference in practitioners themselves. If you're 19, working a job that doesn't care if you come in looking banged up and you're single, then spending hours at the MMA gym getting in prime shape for 5 - 5 minute rounds and to take and dish out a real beating might be the best thing for you. If you're 50, married with 2 kids and have to give regular client presentations it probably isn't even an option. 

Even if it is theoretically an option at that point, how long will a standard MMA gym remain functional for you? And if the 50 year old is strictly interested in self defense (Type 2) and cares not a bit for the sport as a sport, there's an awful lot of time spent on skills and conditioning that is superfluous and to some degree likely detrimental to their goals. Now again, you could create an MMA based class tailored to this sort of person, but then you're starting to leave the realm of sports.

Now that I'm approaching 50, I can sympathize with the theoretical 50 year old above. I work a lot of evenings and I'm married which makes it tough to attend more than a couple of classes a week. I'm lucky enough to work a job where I could probably get away with black eyes and cauliflower ears but it wouldn't be the best career choice I could make. I work out, I'm in reasonable shape, but I've found that it takes longer to get in great cardiovascular shape and it goes away faster than it used to. I'm a lot more committed to strength training, where the gains are a little slower than in my youth but they still stick around, and a lot less interested in spending my limited time doing hours of road work and skipping rope. 

At this point I have close to no interest in competing in boxing, Muay Thai, Judo, or MMA events, though I do have some interest in competing in BJJ. And while I think there's value in BJJ for (Type 2) self defense, I'd personally be far more interested in something primarily focused on stand up grappling for that purpose because I want to get away from an attacker, not role around with him. Even if they're hypothetically the best choice for self defense for someone, from what I've seen the MMA gyms around here aren't a very good self defense fit for me at this stage in my life.


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## marques (Oct 24, 2018)

There is nothing preventing martial arts from being as good as martial sports. Potentially, they can be even better and specifically focused for self defence. 

But sport implies competition from day one; and martial arts are very often trained (only) with compliant partners. So, the sport trains better for non-compliant opponents... 

Both have technical restrictions, while for self defence only legal or moral/ethical restrictions would make sense.


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## Finlay (Oct 24, 2018)

Having sparring in your martial art does make you a better martial artist. You understand how to work against an active person.

However having sparring doesn't also mean sport.

There is a difference between self defence and fighting although obviously there is crossover.

The guy in the video is impressive. I really like how he moves. In this situation maybe self defence went into fighting. I especailly like his reaction to the sucker punch.

Some (self defence) questions 

- Do you think he could have de-escalated the situation?

- Was there a point where he could have disengaged. 

- What would happen if the 'interrupting' people had decided to join in? Ot seems that they were more on the other guy's team

- What would have happen if the woman didn't break the fight up?



It may seem like splitting hairs, but if you are studying self defence all these questions and others have to be looked at. As well as the physical self defence.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 24, 2018)

Old CMA saying said that if you don't spar/wrestle for 3 days, your arms and legs will no longer be yours. If you have not used your single leg to take down your opponents 100 times, how will you know that your can use it to take your opponent down the 101 time?

I truly don't understand how will you be able to develop your MA skill without the "sport" format?


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## Buka (Oct 24, 2018)

I can’t really answer. It’s like asking me which of my feet I like better.

But I do believe competitions have an advantage over students who never compete.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> This question has been bugging me for awhile, and it mainly comes out of Rickson Gracie's arguments in regards to self defense BJJ vs Sport Bjj, and the age old Martial Art vs Martial Sport debate. When I think about what a martial sport can bring to a table vs a martial art, I simply have to give the edge to the sport. They develop speed, cardio, strength, and are applying their skills over and over again in a controlled environment. MMA is a sport that is currently giving traditional arts a run for their money. Their exponents just appear to be better fighters overall than their traditional peers. People constantly say that Boxing is great for self defense, and Boxing is definitely a sport at just about every level of practice.
> 
> Here is vid of a sport Bjj practitioner in a fight on a basketball court:
> 
> ...



I'll let these guys answer your question.  You can skip to 12:15 for a direct answer


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> This question has been bugging me for awhile, and it mainly comes out of Rickson Gracie's arguments in regards to self defense BJJ vs Sport Bjj, and the age old Martial Art vs Martial Sport debate. When I think about what a martial sport can bring to a table vs a martial art, I simply have to give the edge to the sport. They develop speed, cardio, strength, and are applying their skills over and over again in a controlled environment. MMA is a sport that is currently giving traditional arts a run for their money. Their exponents just appear to be better fighters overall than their traditional peers. People constantly say that Boxing is great for self defense, and Boxing is definitely a sport at just about every level of practice.
> 
> Here is vid of a sport Bjj practitioner in a fight on a basketball court:
> 
> ...


I'm curious, what part of this...
"They develop speed, cardio, strength, and are applying their skills over and over again in a controlled environment."
...do you not see as part of non-competition MA?

To me, there's not a hard line between "martial sport" and "martial art". Martial sports are the organized competition. Martial art is the training. Some folks train entirely for the sport. Some folks don't use the sport (the organized competition) but use the same training approach, while limiting their application to within the school (I think @drop bear falls into this group).

I think we too often (and I include my past self in this, from the opposite side of where you seem to stand) draw a hard distinction between these. Competition - any competition, including friendly, in-dojo, and organized events - adds useful feedback to training. So, if you give me two identical people and train them identically, but one of them uses competition and the other doesn't, then the one who uses competition will probably be the better able to defend. As with other areas of training, intensity in the competition matters, to - and we have to figure out where we make our compromise on safety vs intensity in all areas of our training.

But there are more variables than that. Light-tap point sparring is a martial sport. I'm not sure it is helpful - and might actually be counter-productive - for developing self-defense fighting ability. That would not be the case for MMA or Kyokushin. So the ruleset used will matter, as will the training used.


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## DaveB (Oct 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> This question has been bugging me for awhile, and it mainly comes out of Rickson Gracie's arguments in regards to self defense BJJ vs Sport Bjj, and the age old Martial Art vs Martial Sport debate. When I think about what a martial sport can bring to a table vs a martial art, I simply have to give the edge to the sport. They develop speed, cardio, strength, and are applying their skills over and over again in a controlled environment. MMA is a sport that is currently giving traditional arts a run for their money. Their exponents just appear to be better fighters overall than their traditional peers. People constantly say that Boxing is great for self defense, and Boxing is definitely a sport at just about every level of practice.
> 
> Here is vid of a sport Bjj practitioner in a fight on a basketball court:
> 
> ...


What about a martial art that is trained like a martial sport?


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## jobo (Oct 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> This question has been bugging me for awhile, and it mainly comes out of Rickson Gracie's arguments in regards to self defense BJJ vs Sport Bjj, and the age old Martial Art vs Martial Sport debate. When I think about what a martial sport can bring to a table vs a martial art, I simply have to give the edge to the sport. They develop speed, cardio, strength, and are applying their skills over and over again in a controlled environment. MMA is a sport that is currently giving traditional arts a run for their money. Their exponents just appear to be better fighters overall than their traditional peers. People constantly say that Boxing is great for self defense, and Boxing is definitely a sport at just about every level of practice.
> 
> Here is vid of a sport Bjj practitioner in a fight on a basketball court:
> 
> ...


Yes i think your right, allowing that its a big world with lots of different types of training in ma in it, someone who is in peek condition for competition, will quite probebly be in bettet condition than someone who doesnt compete, and so in any real world situation will be fitter and have sharper reflexs, than a non competition ma, 

You could further argue, that any body who does any contact sport at a reasonable level, will also have a marked advantage over a hobbist ma,


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## FriedRice (Oct 24, 2018)

TMA/SD  in general (<- this means, not all. thanks), is kind of like Larping. All of the disabling, incapacitating moves (eye gouge, nutstrikes, etc.) are all trained and sparred with make believe contact to light contact. This was why Kano developed Judo, by eliminating all of the cheap moves and made it a sport, which in turn, created fine tuned athletes that can be legit killers if they wanted to. 

People often claim that if you train under MMA sports rules, you'd end up fighting with rules in the streets....so does this mean that a TMA/SD will pretend-kick someone in the balls if they're attacked in the streets for real? 

Here's a good example of pretend-strikers vs. real-strikers:


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## drop bear (Oct 24, 2018)

Your martial art has to work first and foremost. Which is sport when painted with a big broad brush.

And then it should be applicable to the situation. Which is street.

The 90/10 rule.


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## Headhunter (Oct 24, 2018)

As always the style makes little difference. If one guy trains boxing once a week then spends every other day eating junk, smoking and drinking and another guy trains karate 7 days a week, eats healthily, practices outside class, doesn't smoke and does regular exercise. The karate guy will be better. If you reverse the situation the boxer will be better it's really as simple as that


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Perhaps I didn't make this clear. There ARE many TMAs that have competitive aspects, so I'm curious if that competitive aspect produces better martial artists simply by way of the benefits of sport. Further, do those sportive benefits translate into a better self defense result than a martial art that avoids competitive aspects completely?
> 
> Interestingly, I could see my style splinter into non-sport vs sport as the gap in competition widens and  Gjj simply doesn't produce as many competitors as Bjj because of the former's self defense focus. I'm curious if when that happens, will Gjj begin to devolve while competitive Bjj continues to evolve? If that happens, would Bjj be a better self defense option than Gjj?


In general, I'd expect a branch that has competition to be better for the purpose than one that doesn't. That's assuming the evolution spurred by competition (as with your reference to BJJ/GJJ) doesn't take it too much into specialized moves that favor competition rules only (as we see happen in some areas of TKD).


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## MetalBoar (Oct 24, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> TMA/SD  in general (<- this means, not all. thanks), is kind of like Larping. All of the disabling, incapacitating moves (eye gouge, nutstrikes, etc.) are all trained and sparred with make believe contact to light contact. This was why Kano developed Judo, by eliminating all of the cheap moves and made it a sport, which in turn, created fine tuned athletes that can be legit killers if they wanted to.
> 
> People often claim that if you train under MMA sports rules, you'd end up fighting with rules in the streets....*so does this mean that a TMA/SD will pretend-kick someone in the balls if they're attacked in the streets for real? *
> 
> Here's a good example of pretend-strikers vs. real-strikers:


I think that in most cases if you don't make a special effort to train to actually follow through with those kinds of techniques there's a real possibility that you'll "pretend-kick someone in the balls" under stress. I think there are a number of ways to mitigate this but I don't know how many schools even think about it. If they train all the less "lethal" techniques with real resistance it probably isn't the end of the world, but if they are just LARPing, as you suggested, then yeah that's a problem. Just like most sport based schools that don't contain a self defense curriculum don't think about the less than ideal habits they ingrain. It's just not such a big problem there because, in general, they aren't training with such a limited rule set that this cripples their techniques outside the ring.

This is one of the things that gets me up on a soap box. Lots of things can work to improve one's self defense to a greater or lesser degree, but if you just go through the motions without thinking about how it will actually work and then testing your beliefs to see if they're correct you can miss a lot.


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## drop bear (Oct 24, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> As always the style makes little difference. If one guy trains boxing once a week then spends every other day eating junk, smoking and drinking and another guy trains karate 7 days a week, eats healthily, practices outside class, doesn't smoke and does regular exercise. The karate guy will be better. If you reverse the situation the boxer will be better it's really as simple as that



What if both people have the same lifestyle?


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> so does this mean that a TMA/SD will pretend-kick someone in the balls if they're attacked in the streets for real?


yes - we fight how we train


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## Martial D (Oct 24, 2018)

drop bear said:


> What if both people have the same lifestyle?


I'll always bet on the guy that trains the activity by doing the activity over the guy that doesn't.

What if boxer only hit pads and drilled stuff but karate guy was doing kumites and roof top death battles twice a week?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 24, 2018)

Martial D said:


> What if boxer only hit pads and drilled stuff but karate guy was doing kumites and roof top death battles twice a week?


You can't do roof top death battles twice a week. Your body can't take it. The sport format can give you a safe environment to test your MA skill.

You

- can spar/wrestle 15 rounds daily.
- can't fight roof top death battles twice a week.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 24, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can't do roof top death battles twice a week. Your body can't take it. The sport format can give you a safe environment to test your MA skill.
> 
> You
> 
> ...


What if it's against a toddler? I'm pretty sure my body could handle a rooftop death battle with a toddler every day if it had to.


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## Buka (Oct 24, 2018)

What the heck is a rooftop death battle? An expression, or is that a thing?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 24, 2018)

Buka said:


> What the heck is a rooftop death battle? An expression, or is that a thing?


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## dvcochran (Oct 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> This question has been bugging me for awhile, and it mainly comes out of Rickson Gracie's arguments in regards to self defense BJJ vs Sport Bjj, and the age old Martial Art vs Martial Sport debate. When I think about what a martial sport can bring to a table vs a martial art, I simply have to give the edge to the sport. They develop speed, cardio, strength, and are applying their skills over and over again in a controlled environment. MMA is a sport that is currently giving traditional arts a run for their money. Their exponents just appear to be better fighters overall than their traditional peers. People constantly say that Boxing is great for self defense, and Boxing is definitely a sport at just about every level of practice.
> 
> Here is vid of a sport Bjj practitioner in a fight on a basketball court:
> 
> ...


A rebuttal could not have been said better than @MetalBoar 's. I will add this. I am certain most people on this form who practice a TMA do not practice your idea of a TMA. We often spar in a very combative way, giving leeway to "tapping out" or pulling attacks so we can come back night after night and do it again. We practice self defense, both in how we use all the attacks, block, etc... we learn and in specific techniques and applications. If you are making your comparison to fighters in the amateur/professional circuits then yes, you have a valid argument. But you are talking about <1% of everyone in all MA's combined. And that really isn't any kind of Martial Art. That is fighting.


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## FriedRice (Oct 24, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> If you are making your comparison to fighters in the amateur/professional circuits then yes, you have a valid argument. But you are talking about <1% of everyone in all MA's combined. And that really isn't any kind of Martial Art. That is fighting.



But now you're getting into doctrines and dogma that we don't subscribe to....to say that it really isn't any kind of MA.


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## Martial D (Oct 25, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> If you are making your comparison to fighters in the amateur/professional circuits then yes, you have a valid argument. But you are talking about <1% of everyone in all MA's combined. And that really isn't any kind of Martial Art. That is fighting.



Wait, so it's only a martial art if you don't use it for it's intended purpose?


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## JR 137 (Oct 25, 2018)

drop bear said:


> What if both people have the same lifestyle?


Not enough of a sample size. Take 200 people.

There are some “gamers” out there. Great example is a backup goalie we had one year. The guy smoked 2 packs a day and was more concerned with cracking jokes with the guys during practice and hooking up with the ladies every other moment. Starting goalie broke his tibia first game of the season. Coaches expected him to get his act together. Nope. 

If we were up 2 or more goals, he’d let an easy one get by him. If the game was on the line, he was a brick wall in the goal. Never once gave up an important goal. Made ridiculous saves every time he needed to. Let in awful goals whenever it didn’t matter.

I like gamers.


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## Christopher Adamchek (Oct 25, 2018)

The sport aspects of training are great!
But i would not give them the edge over martial arts, actually if you take out the artistic qualities martial combatives has the edge (training in real enviroments, talking people down, using the objects around you, fighting multiple people, surprise attacks, introducing a slew of weapons)


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2018)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> The sport aspects of training are great!
> But i would not give them the edge over martial arts, actually if you take out the artistic qualities martial combatives has the edge (training in real enviroments, talking people down, using the objects around you, fighting multiple people, surprise attacks, introducing a slew of weapons)


The "art" in "martial arts" isn't about artistic qualities. It's a usage that was more common in the past - it refers to learned skill.


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## Christopher Adamchek (Oct 25, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> The "art" in "martial arts" isn't about artistic qualities. It's a usage that was more common in the past - it refers to learned skill.


I understand, and in a way still consider that an artistic quality.  Like painting in an older art style.  And some art do have more other artistic qualities such as music or dancing aspects incorporated in the art.


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## FriedRice (Oct 25, 2018)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> The sport aspects of training are great!
> But i would not give them the edge over martial arts, actually if you take out the artistic qualities martial combatives has the edge (training in real enviroments, talking people down, using the objects around you, fighting multiple people, surprise attacks, introducing a slew of weapons)



If part of your training, does not include full power strikes to the body & head with the full intentions of knocking your training partner out, then it's still very Larpy and levels below MMA. And I should know because I'm also a Larper and this is what many of these SD combatives, Krav Maga whatever are doing....you Larp out fantasy scenarios with pretend-strikes and up to light contact (maybe even medium). I'm not saying it's useless, just levels below hard sparring for KO's to fighting in the cage, which is the highest.


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## JR 137 (Oct 25, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> If part of your training, does not include full power strikes to the body & head with the full intentions of knocking your training partner out, then it's still very Larpy and levels below MMA. And I should know because I'm also a Larper and this is what many of these SD combatives, Krav Maga whatever are doing....you Larp out fantasy scenarios with pretend-strikes and up to light contact (maybe even medium). I'm not saying it's useless, just levels below hard sparring for KO's to fighting in the cage, which is the highest.


Those guys and gals who are training for cage fights and the like aren’t practicing with full power strikes to the body and head. If they are, their careers aren’t going to last very long, and neither will their sparring partners’.

It’s all too common and easy to say “you fight how you train.” The best fighters in the world aren’t sparring anywhere near 100% intensity in training, yet they can do it just fine in the ring/cage/whatever.

Spar to protect your and your partners’ long term health. Hit other things at full intensity and power, like heavy bags.


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## Martial D (Oct 25, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Those guys and gals who are training for cage fights and the like aren’t practicing with full power strikes to the body and head. If they are, their careers aren’t going to last very long, and neither will their sparring partners’.
> 
> It’s all too common and easy to say “you fight how you train.” The best fighters in the world aren’t sparring anywhere near 100% intensity in training, yet they can do it just fine in the ring/cage/whatever.
> 
> Spar to protect your and your partners’ long term health. Hit other things at full intensity and power, like heavy bags.


They go full out in sparring at AKA. Yes, they get injured at a greater rate than most other gyms, but they have also produced more champions(Cain, Khabib, DC, Holm, etc etc)


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 25, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> If part of your training, does not include full power strikes to the body & head with the full intentions of knocking your training partner out, then it's still very Larpy and levels below MMA. And I should know because I'm also a Larper and this is what many of these SD combatives, Krav Maga whatever are doing....you Larp out fantasy scenarios with pretend-strikes and up to light contact (maybe even medium). I'm not saying it's useless, just levels below hard sparring for KO's to fighting in the cage, which is the highest.


I actually believe you need to have both in your training regimen.   Hard sparring for the realism and to allow you to 'test' your training at full level power (ie:   Tests all aspects of your training from shots delivered to shots taken.  Considers live opponents and requires you to be active and reactive or face painful consequences.  Evaluates overall fitness, breathing, footwork and strategy.....etc. at full power) but the price you pay is that you can get injured or perhaps injure your sparring partner (s) to a point that they have to stop training to recover.  This is not ideal.   

In this respect, light to medium sparring is much better.  It allows you to try different tactics or strategies without fear of getting injured.  The drawback to always sparring lightly is a false sense of confidence of what your real skills are really like at full power and against opponents that have bad intensions toward you.   As Mike Tyson said, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".   

You need the hard sparring to get an idea of what it is like to really get hit and then you will know if you can remember how to perform the art you have been training in.  Many folks would also be surprised at how quickly they gas out after sparring at 100%.   Amazing to see how quickly people fade after the initial adrenaline dump.........


----------



## Headhunter (Oct 25, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Those guys and gals who are training for cage fights and the like aren’t practicing with full power strikes to the body and head. If they are, their careers aren’t going to last very long, and neither will their sparring partners’.
> 
> It’s all too common and easy to say “you fight how you train.” The best fighters in the world aren’t sparring anywhere near 100% intensity in training, yet they can do it just fine in the ring/cage/whatever.
> 
> Spar to protect your and your partners’ long term health. Hit other things at full intensity and power, like heavy bags.


Agreed. If you spar at 100% you'll more than likely get injured and have to pull out of the fight. A number of UFC fighters have gone on record saying they regret sparring so stupidly. Jamie Varner, Forrest griffin and Donald cerrone are the 3 that come to mind and those are high level fighters and cerrone said he doesn't spar anymore. Also tony Ferguson has said he hasn't sparred in 5 years.sparring is mainly for cardio and timing and distance and looking for openings not hitting full power that's why they have bags and pads.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> They go full out in sparring at AKA. Yes, they get injured at a greater rate than most other gyms, but they have also produced more champions(Cain, Khabib, DC, Holm, etc etc)



And you have world class competitors, such as Cowboy Cerrone, who don't spar at all.


----------



## Headhunter (Oct 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> They go full out in sparring at AKA. Yes, they get injured at a greater rate than most other gyms, but they have also produced more champions(Cain, Khabib, DC, Holm, etc etc)


Um holm trains at Greg jacksons gym. 

Cain is basically retired because of injuries he's been out longer than mcgrgeor, khabib who while yes now is on top but also took a very long time off with injuries. 

That type of training just isn't smart at all health wise and career wise


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2018)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> I understand, and in a way still consider that an artistic quality.  Like painting in an older art style.  And some art do have more other artistic qualities such as music or dancing aspects incorporated in the art.


Some have added artistic qualities, but that's not what the word means in the phrase. Your previous post treated it as if that's what it meant.


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## FriedRice (Oct 25, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Those guys and gals who are training for cage fights and the like aren’t practicing with full power strikes to the body and head. If they are, their careers aren’t going to last very long, and neither will their sparring partners’.
> 
> It’s all too common and easy to say “you fight how you train.” The best fighters in the world aren’t sparring anywhere near 100% intensity in training, yet they can do it just fine in the ring/cage/whatever.
> 
> Spar to protect your and your partners’ long term health. Hit other things at full intensity and power, like heavy bags.



What's all this, then?


----------



## Martial D (Oct 25, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> And you have world class competitors, such as Cowboy Cerrone, who don't spar at all.


Which has nothing at all to do with what I said, or the post I was replying to.

But honestly, maybe if he did he wouldn't get knocked out every other fight.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> They go full out in sparring at AKA. Yes, they get injured at a greater rate than most other gyms, but they have also produced more champions(Cain, Khabib, DC, Holm, etc etc)




This is completely bogus.  Because some giant bruiser who's overly strong shows up @ AKA, suddenly AKA has the magic potion?

Holm has been at Jackson / Winkeljohn from the start.  You wouldn't want the average person to come to you martial arts school on these false premises would you?  Oh, or would you?


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Which has nothing at all to do with what I said, or the post I was replying to.
> 
> But honestly, maybe if he did he wouldn't get knocked out every other fight.



Maybe if Cerrone trained differently, he wouldn't get knocked out as often.  What the gentleman you just replied said might be a possibility.  Amazes me, how with all the threads here @ martial talk, the same topics start from the ground up.

PLUS, getting knocked around and banged in the head constantly might well produce some brain damage.  Certainly over time.  Theres' a whole league now acknowledging so.


----------



## Martial D (Oct 25, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> Maybe if Cerrone trained differently, he wouldn't get knocked out as often.  What the gentleman you just replied said might be a possibility.  Amazes me, how with all the threads here @ martial talk, the same topics start from the ground up.
> 
> PLUS, getting knocked around and banged in the head constantly might well produce some brain damage.  Certainly over time.  Theres' a whole league now acknowledging so.


With all due respect, you have shown to have little to no knowledge in the field of martial arts in general, so if you could just steer clear of my posts while the adults are talking that would be swell.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> *With all due respect*, you have shown to have little to no knowledge in the field of martial arts in general, so if you could just steer clear of my posts _*while the adults are talking*_ that would be swell.



Well, you've certainly made yourself known; no beating around the mulberry bush....


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## dvcochran (Oct 25, 2018)

It is four videos from youtube. Certainly not an accurate consensus of the majority. 


FriedRice said:


> What's all this, then?


----------



## FriedRice (Oct 25, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> It is four videos from youtube. Certainly not an accurate consensus of the majority.



You can't be serious. You want me to post 100 video links or something? And you do know that fighters don't usually film every time they spar hard right? I'd be surprise if any of them films more than 1% of their sparring sessions, especially Pros of the high to highest levels that trains almost every day. 

And videoing a lot with a phone didn't even start until the last 8 years or so. I still remember using my $1000 mini-DV camera in 2008-2010 or such, and that was decent equipment that not many people owned then and I was the only guy filming at our gym's events. And he said that they didn't spar hard at all at such Pro levels, so technically I only had to post 1 link to make my argument.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 25, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> You can't be serious. You want me to post 100 video links or something? And you do know that fighters don't usually film every time they spar hard right? I'd be surprise if any of them films more than 1% of their sparring sessions, especially Pros of the high to highest levels that trains almost every day.
> 
> And videoing a lot with a phone didn't even start until the last 8 years or so. I still remember using my $1000 mini-DV camera in 2008-2010 or such, and that was decent equipment that not many people owned then and I was the only guy filming at our gym's events. And he said that they didn't spar hard at all at such Pro levels, so technically I only had to post 1 link to make my argument.


As you said, these are fighters.


----------



## FriedRice (Oct 25, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> PLUS, getting knocked around and banged in the head constantly might well produce some brain damage.  Certainly over time.  Theres' a whole league now acknowledging so.



Well yeah, that's why it's the highest level of MA training.....to be an MA Fighter.  Not every MA'ist can do it, mostly due to fear.


----------



## FriedRice (Oct 25, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> As you said, these are fighters.



Read what the other guy said again. He said that Fighters don't spar hard for KO's.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 25, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Agreed. If you spar at 100% you'll more than likely get injured and have to pull out of the fight. A number of UFC fighters have gone on record saying they regret sparring so stupidly. Jamie Varner, Forrest griffin and Donald cerrone are the 3 that come to mind and those are high level fighters and cerrone said he doesn't spar anymore. Also tony Ferguson has said he hasn't sparred in 5 years.sparring is mainly for cardio and timing and distance and looking for openings not hitting full power that's why they have bags and pads.


Pre-fight beatings are never good.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 25, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Pre-fight beatings are never good.


Beatings are never good.


----------



## Martial D (Oct 25, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Pre-fight beatings are never good.


You get out what you put in though. Yes sparring light helps your game...a lot.

But going light and friendly just doesn't prepare you for the agressive reality of punches and kicks intended to take your head off. It's a whole different thing. Being comfortable in THAT environment is the place from which you can actually use your training effectively.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Oct 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> You get out what you put in though. Yes sparring light helps your game...a lot.



Sparring in the proper context helps a lot.  This is what I attribute much of the poor quality striking we see in the UFC.  They aren't putting the effort into striking basics the way serious boxing gyms do.  They aren't sparring intelligently the way the pro-am boxing gyms do.



Martial D said:


> But going light and friendly just doesn't prepare you for the agressive reality of punches and kicks intended to take your head off. It's a whole different thing. Being comfortable in THAT environment is the place from which you can actually use your training effectively.



Well TMA is meant to provide a solid base for self defense.  TMA is not specialized self defense training.

The wrongness in TMA comes from thinking or assuming 'light' is right.  And this is from a sport mentality applied to TMA.  We don't go light in TMA proper.  We go controlled.  What do most karate practitioners do in my dojo?  They spar light which is wrong.  I mean it's ok to go light, understanding what you are doing isn't right and is only a baby step on your karate fighting journey.

The wrong thinking of 'lightness" in TMA arises because students or instructors treat it, sparring as a physical activity.  What you want to do is go "right."  It's not about strong physical output or limiting same.


----------



## FriedRice (Oct 25, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> Sparring in the proper context helps a lot.  This is what I attribute much of the poor quality striking we see in the UFC.  They aren't putting the effort into striking basics the way serious boxing gyms do.



You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Did some Boxer tell you this? Youtube video? What you see in MMA is not Boxing, it's mostly modified Boxing for MMA due to take downs, kicks, knees and elbows. And no **** that if an athlete puts all of his efforts into Boxing, then he's going to be better at Boxing than someone who needs to spread his time training many more aspects of fighting. 



> They aren't sparring intelligently the way the pro-am boxing gyms do.



I thought you were against/scared of hard sparring. Boxing gyms spars hard...probably 10x more often then MMA gyms....and will get you your 1st, semi-serious concussion...usually after about 6 months of training that'll work it's way into a serious one sooner or later.



> Well TMA is meant to provide a solid base for self defense.  TMA is not specialized self defense training.
> 
> The wrongness in TMA comes from thinking or assuming 'light' is right.  And this is from a sport mentality applied to TMA.  We don't go light in TMA proper.  We go controlled.  What do most karate practitioners do in my dojo?  They spar light which is wrong.  I mean it's ok to go light, understanding what you are doing isn't right and is only a baby step on your karate fighting journey.
> 
> The wrong thinking of 'lightness" in TMA arises because students or instructors treat it, sparring as a physical activity.  What you want to do is go "right."  It's not about strong physical output or limiting same  .




Says who? Those ancient chopsocky Asian guys developed their MA's to beat up, settle scores, dominate and kill each other....including starting wars, pillaging, plundering and enslaving the conquered. You're just enamored by The Karate Kid trilogy....made up by White people....and thinking Mr. Miyagi is real when he was freakin' Arnold on Happy Days.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 25, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> It is four videos from youtube. Certainly not an accurate consensus of the majority.



Well here is cerone that everyone is talking about.


----------



## Martial D (Oct 25, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Well here is cerone that everyone is talking about.




Proof he doesn't spar! 

..oh wait..


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 26, 2018)

Martial D said:


> But going light and friendly just doesn't prepare you for the agressive reality of punches and kicks intended to take your head off. It's a whole different thing.


For me there's no difference between light sparring and hard fighting, other than the speed and force of the punches and I'm saying this from the perspective of the street fights I've been in.

Punches, kicks, take downs and defenses, still flow in the same direction in the same pattern.  The flaws that you have here will be the same flaws that you have in full on fight.















If you have a good coach and training partner then those flaws can be addressed and corrected without having to be at an intensity where you are trying to knock someone out.  If someone can hit you in light sparring they can hit you in hard fights.  The only factors that will change that is speed and power.

The only thing that people need to really pay attention to is the context of sparring.  For example, I shouldn't expect my push hands sparring to be enough to prepare me for a match where there is punching, kicking and grappling going on.  I have to make sure that my sparring is in the same context that my fighting will be in.  Don't do point sparring tactics if the fight is grappling because they are two different things.

If all you do is light sparring Wing Chun against Wing Chun then you will fail when it Wing Chun vs Boxing.  If you do hard sparring Wing Chun against Wing Chun then you will fail when doing Wing Chun vs Boxing in a full on fight.  The outcome is the same and the intensity of the sparring doesn't matter.

If you aren't training techniques that you can use to cause damage to your opponent then hard sparring won't make any difference.

I have never done hard sparring before in my life.   Everything has been light.  You may look at some of my videos and say that some are hard sparring, but in reality and for me,  it's light sparring because of the conditioning that my body has.  It's not light sparring for a beginner.  The punches and kicks are harder but they are never thrown with the goal of trying to knockout my opponent. 

Now if you are sparring so light where you don't care about being hit, then it's that stuff that doesn't help.  Stuff like that will degrade your ability


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 26, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Well here is cerone that everyone is talking about.


And that's light sparring. The guy in black shorts didn't blast the other guy as if he was trying to knock him out.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 26, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'll let these guys answer your question.  You can skip to 12:15 for a direct answer



While I respect both of those guys, they clearly have an agenda in that video. In the end it sounds like an advertisement for their SD programs over a legitimate critique of the video in question.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 26, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> As you said, these are fighters.



Martial artists aren't fighters? Fighters aren't martial artists?

Maybe we should figure out what the difference is.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 26, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> And that's light sparring. The guy in black shorts didn't blast the other guy as if he was trying to knock him out.



But clearly his strikes were strong enough to knock out his training partner. I've never seen anyone get knocked out from light sparring.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 26, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Martial artists aren't fighters? Fighters aren't martial artists?
> 
> Maybe we should figure out what the difference is.


Agreed. This is back to that false distinction. Some martial artists are not fighters. Some fighters are not martial artists. But there's a lot of overlap in those populations.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 26, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> While I respect both of those guys, they clearly have an agenda in that video. In the end it sounds like an advertisement for their SD programs over a legitimate critique of the video in question.


They do. I've found very few MAists - TMA, MMA, or any other - whose spoken-word videos don't show their bias when they mention another art. In fact, I can't think of one off the top of my head.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 26, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Martial artists aren't fighters? Fighters aren't martial artists?
> 
> Maybe we should figure out what the difference is.


Yes, it is tough. Martial Arts should teach you how not to be predisposed to fighting. If you want to only be a ring fighter I have a hard time calling that MA. Because it is an easy Segway to move from MA to sport fighter the line really gets blurred. Naturally, many of the same practice elements are used in both making it even more difficult to separate. So I would say yes, Martial Artist aren't fighters but do "fight" to learn. A great many things is rolled up into the word learn.  Exclusively being a fighter is not a Martial Artist.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 26, 2018)

Finlay said:


> Having sparring in your martial art does make you a better martial artist. You understand how to work against an active person.
> 
> However having sparring doesn't also mean sport.
> 
> ...



Definitely. He failed in that regard, and I seriously wonder if he didn't de-escalate it because he knew he would absolutely wreck the guy if they fought.



> - Was there a point where he could have disengaged.



I don't think so. I don't think the other guy would have stopped unless he was stopped. Frankly that fight should have been over after the initial sucker punch, because the Bjj guy had his back and was punching him in the head from behind until bystanders pulled him apart. That's pretty much game over.



> - What would happen if the 'interrupting' people had decided to join in? Ot seems that they were more on the other guy's team



Yep, definitely on the other guy's side. He's fortunate that they didn't jump in, but unfortunately some of that is out of your control.



> - What would have happen if the woman didn't break the fight up?



The big guy probably would have undid the lock. I don't think the Bjj guy would have snapped his ankle.



> It may seem like splitting hairs, but if you are studying self defence all these questions and others have to be looked at. As well as the physical self defence.



Yes, but do we go to martial arts schools to learn how to fight, or to learn situational awareness? You don't need martial arts to learn the latter. Also the ability to fight is clearly important in the critical portion of self defense when physical violence has been initiated.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 26, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Definitely. He failed in that regard, and I seriously wonder if he didn't de-escalate it because he knew he would absolutely wreck the guy if they fought.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You had me up to your last statement. In our class/system SA is part of the teaching.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 26, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Yes, it is tough. Martial Arts should teach you how not to be predisposed to fighting. If you want to only be a ring fighter I have a hard time calling that MA. Because it is an easy Segway to move from MA to sport fighter the line really gets blurred. Naturally, many of the same practice elements are used in both making it even more difficult to separate. So I would say yes, Martial Artist aren't fighters but do "fight" to learn. A great many things is rolled up into the word learn.  Exclusively being a fighter is not a Martial Artist.



That sounds rather contradictory on multiple levels. I see no way to avoid being predisposed to fighting when you're seriously learning a fighting art. Especially in harder styles where you're getting physically blasted on a consistent basis.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 26, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Well here is cerone that everyone is talking about.


I would love to see another 60 seconds of the clip. They were pulling and going through motion drills. I am not sure his head even moved. Was it a hard hit or was he clowning?


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 26, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> You had me up to your last statement. In our class/system SA is part of the teaching.



Gotcha, but I don't need to take a MA to learn situational awareness. I know some MAs offer it, but that training isn't exclusive to MA, and frankly is taught better elsewhere.


----------



## FriedRice (Oct 26, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> And that's light sparring. The guy in black shorts didn't blast the other guy as if he was trying to knock him out.



That looked like a fanboi (a beginner's level) getting a big moment for some fun with Ceronne, so not even real sparring. And he's small too.

To me, that was medium sparring and he shouldn't have gone that hard. Maybe keep it at touch to light. If I hit girls at our gym that hard, most will probably start crying.


----------



## FriedRice (Oct 26, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Yes, it is tough. Martial Arts should teach you how not to be predisposed to fighting. If you want to only be a ring fighter I have a hard time calling that MA.



Says who though?

Bruce Lee used to be a street thug in Hong Kong....then a street thug + bully in US Chinatowns.....he used his chopsocky to pick fights in order to make a name for himself. There's an account of him dropping and old Tai Chi man in what was supposed to be a pushing demo, but Lee punched him in the gut, haha. After he got famous, his Publicists cleaned up his image so he's now some Yoda of the martial arts?

Samurais used to be the hired killers/enforcers of scumbag warlords, going around bullying, killing and raping men, women and children with their Jujutsu. And when they had no jobs, they'd go robbing poor farmers and raping young boys and girls. But now they're glorified by, once again, White Hollywood. 

Seems like the Martial Arts is merely a tool to me. And to Fighters, it's a tool to beat someone *** up in the ring.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 26, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> You had me up to your last statement. In our class/system SA is part of the teaching.


In my opinion, there's only so much situational awareness that can be taught in that environment. There's a lot more fighting skill that can be taught.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 26, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> While I respect both of those guys, they clearly have an agenda in that video. In the end it sounds like an advertisement for their SD programs over a legitimate critique of the video in question.


Gracie have already been quoted multiple times about their desire for BJJ to remain closer to the self-defense perspective than the sport perspective.  That has been their view since UFC 1.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 26, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> But clearly his strikes were strong enough to knock out his training partner. I've never seen anyone get knocked out from light sparring.


I've seen people get dazed from light sparring, he'll I've even done it and have experienced it personally.  Light sparring doesn't mean weak sparring.  With light sparring you still want to work on the power connections.  You just don't want add extra to the power.  The reason the guy got knocked out was because of his crappy defense.  The KO was more because of his defensive flaws than because of the kick.  There was no heat on that kick.  Just a well placed kick with good power connection set on low.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 26, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> And that's light sparring. The guy in black shorts didn't blast the other guy as if he was trying to knock him out.



When you spar noobs you can't go at them like that. They don't have the positional defenses.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 26, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I would love to see another 60 seconds of the clip. They were pulling and going through motion drills. I am not sure his head even moved. Was it a hard hit or was he clowning?



He got hit looking the wrong way. It doesn't take much. A foot and leg are heavy weapons.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> In my opinion, there's only so much situational awareness that can be taught in that environment. There's a lot more fighting skill that can be taught.


In that environment, definitely.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 26, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Says who though?
> 
> Bruce Lee used to be a street thug in Hong Kong....then a street thug + bully in US Chinatowns.....he used his chopsocky to pick fights in order to make a name for himself. There's an account of him dropping and old Tai Chi man in what was supposed to be a pushing demo, but Lee punched him in the gut, haha. After he got famous, his Publicists cleaned up his image so he's now some Yoda of the martial arts?
> 
> ...



You are still describing fighters. The true Lee I would call a fighter. Cocky and loved to fight. As you say, Hollywood made him something else. I have never heard Samurai's describe as you do so I am not going to make an opinion about something I don't know everything about.


----------



## Buka (Oct 26, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Definitely. He failed in that regard, and I seriously wonder if he didn't de-escalate it because he knew he would absolutely wreck the guy if they fought.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Either one of those clowns could have de-escalated that situation easily. And in my opinion, the jits kid was just drooling over getting that guy to take a swing.

Shame on both their young asses.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 26, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> You are still describing fighters. The true Lee I would call a fighter. Cocky and loved to fight. As you say, Hollywood made him something else. I have never heard Samurai's describe as you do so I am not going to make an opinion about something I don't know everything about.


What I've heard (and I'm far from expert in this area) lines up with what FR said - samurai were as ill-behaved as the knights of Europe were. And just like the knights, we've since placed them on a pedestal as paragons of virtue. Surely some were (in both groups), but apparently that was not the norm. Not surprisingly, they were all human, and flawed.


----------



## FriedRice (Oct 26, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> You are still describing fighters. The true Lee I would call a fighter. Cocky and loved to fight. As you say, Hollywood made him something else. I have never heard Samurai's describe as you do so I am not going to make an opinion about something I don't know everything about.



You should research Samurais...very interesting. They were basically hired thugs/killers. When their Warlords got conquered by another Warlord, they'd go elsewhere....and if there weren't any House that hired them, they'd start preying on the weak....raping, stealing and killing; because they don't like working regular jobs.....which was usually farming or something.

That's why the peasant farmer class of Japan developed Karate....to defend vs. the scumbag Samurais (and Warlords). Lots of empty hand fighting b/c farmers couldn't afford nice swords....just cheap staffs, spears and I think those sais have farming tools relations....I'm not sure. It's been a while since I read up about them, so I could be wrong.

Martial Arts was probably created as a tool of death & destruction.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 26, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Gotcha, but I don't need to take a MA to learn situational awareness. I know some MAs offer it, but that training isn't exclusive to MA, and frankly is taught better elsewhere.


I don't think you can make the broad statement that it is taught better elsewhere unless that is all you are looking for. SA, like MA isn't something you can go to a few classes and learn.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 26, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I would love to see another 60 seconds of the clip. They were pulling and going through motion drills. I am not sure his head even moved. Was it a hard hit or was he clowning?


Watch it in slow motion and on full screen, and that will answer one of those questions.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 26, 2018)

drop bear said:


> When you spar noobs you can't go at them like that. They don't have the positional defenses.


When I watched the video in slow motion that guy was scared.  The punch wasn't hard but it was fast and he probably though it was going to be harder than it really was.  I did a 3 day class 2 years ago explaining how the brain reacts to intensity.   

I actually have a video that shows me moving attacking really fast.  Even though I was no wear near hitting him.  His brain was registering "oh crap get out of the way."  It was one of the non-fighting classes I enjoyed the most.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> What I've heard (and I'm far from expert in this area) lines up with what FR said - samurai were as ill-behaved as the knights of Europe were.


This is true.  There wasn't any honorable about them. I'm sure there were nice ones there, but for them it had less to do with honor and more to do with power.  It was one of those things where the goal was to make others think that they were.  This way the harm that you do is Justified.  It's no different than what we see to day with wars.


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## drop bear (Oct 27, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I don't think you can make the broad statement that it is taught better elsewhere unless that is all you are looking for. SA, like MA isn't something you can go to a few classes and learn.



If there is no standard or accountability associated with a training method.

That method is probably junk.


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## TMA17 (Oct 29, 2018)

I didn't read every response, but I think the sport side really helps anyone training in a martial art become better.  Live resistance, repetition, perfecting moves etc.  When I look back at my Wing Chun experience, it was so so bad. I almost feel bad for those guys who think they are learning valuable self defense techniques.  The Wing Chun that spars is good, but if there is just forms, no good.  I've really learned in just the last 2 months of doing Judo how important that live element is.  Just getting used to that resistance is HUGE.  Being thrown, learning to throw.  Being taken off-balance.  This goes for any martial art or sport.  When I played high school football for the first time that was an eye opener after years of flag football.  Actually taking a hit and hitting back etc.  Boxing is tough because sparring can be bad for your brain but that too is important.  I think with boixng though, if you spend time on a heavy bag perfecting punches and movements that is good too.  That also could help you in a real fight, but not against a trained boxer.  Probably just your average joe.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Oct 31, 2018)

I would go with the latter.       But its pretty 50/50.

In its purist form a martial art, focused on actual combative skill, would be about the destrution of your opponent or their lethal or less than lethal incapacitation in a fight.  you obviously need to be fit  and they would focus on that, live practice of skills is also a requirement. 

In its purest form, sport fighting is winning under a quite controlled circumstance. death usually isnt sought after when boxing someone for example, dont have to worry about unfavorable terrain, weapons, passerbys or other elements. The importance of being fit and practicing your skill realistically is also present. 


A key element in actually fighting someone is experience though and that's whats been gutted out of civilian circles mostly.  You need to actually fight someone  to get experience in fighting someone, then you run into survivor bias and all of that if you analyze these.  

Yes you can learn from someone who has fought and take their experiences to lessen what you need to learn actually doing it and lessen your chances  of death or incapacitation etc, but you need to learn in actual field conditions, at least someone has to.   There is a reason why instructors in the military usually have combat experience and they try to retain them to teach the next generation of soldiers ans they are also gathering experience in how to conduct operations better with every conflict they survive   BUT the statement "militaries prepare for the last war they fought in" exists and is due to the only example you can draw on being in the past and they might not play into future events. 



Anyway, kind of rambling, hope i made a point clear. I kind fo mixed what i was trying to draw examples from as well, hopefully it didnt make it un readable. 

Oh i also had a TL;DR moment, and didnt read most of the replies, apologies if this is a repeat. 

I obviously have a bias to learning these things for pure combat skill over spiritual and self perfection pursuits. And from that lean in favour of the martial arts which are purist in that regard. 


Addendum:  I would go far as to say, both should be peruses and they have high similarities.   The use of sport can be used to encourage the participation which in turn will make the person fitter and give them a good incentive to continue practicing the skills etc. 

My only issue is, if you goal is combat, the sport element to encourage participation and improvement shouldn't have that many rules to possibly influence reactions in the real thing, it should replicate actual fighting in your doctrine as much as you can safely do or else it would be counter productive to your goals.


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## DaveB (Oct 31, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> That's why the peasant farmer class of Japan developed Karate....to defend vs. the scumbag Samurais (and Warlords). Lots of empty hand fighting b/c farmers couldn't afford nice swords....just cheap staffs, spears and I think those sais have farming tools relations....I'm not sure. It's been a while since I read up about them, so I could be wrong.
> 
> Martial Arts was probably created as a tool of death & destruction.



That's a myth. Karate wasn't developed to fight Samurai.
It wasn't even developed in Japan.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 31, 2018)

DaveB said:


> That's a myth. Karate wasn't developed to fight Samurai.
> It wasn't even developed in Japan.


It might be why it was adopted in Okinawa. I don't know enough of the back story of the art to even know that answer.


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## DaveB (Nov 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It might be why it was adopted in Okinawa. I don't know enough of the back story of the art to even know that answer.


There's no specific narrative outside of the wealthiest Okinawans (not the farmers) had ties with various Chinese kung fu exponents who taught them stuff that they mixed with their indigenous boxing style.

The modern karate we have today came either directly from China (Goju ryu,  Uechi etc) or was further blended with the Jujitsu and training/tactics of the Satsuma and the kung fu of Shaolin, both of whom had trained the bodyguard of the Ryu Kyu islands king, Bushi Matsumura.


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## Hanzou (Nov 1, 2018)

Rat said:


> Oh i also had a TL;DR moment, and didnt read most of the replies, apologies if this is a repeat.
> 
> I obviously have a bias to learning these things for pure combat skill over spiritual and self perfection pursuits. And from that lean in favour of the martial arts which are purist in that regard.
> 
> ...



I don't believe that people are thinking about rules when they're in an actual altercation. I once knew a guy who did Kyokushin karate, and when he got into a bar fight, he was punching the guy in the face all the same. When I got into an fight with a crazy person who tried to turn my brain into paste with a hammer, I was punching him in the face while in guard until I got a hold of his hand and hit the triangle. I didn't let go of the triangle until he was beyond passed out, despite him constantly tapping my legs. I honestly think sport allows you to better handle the adrenaline dump and increases your overall reaction time.

Additionally when I was in competition mode at my old Bjj school, I was doing a TON of sparring to get ready for a tournament. That helped my overall Bjj skills immensely.

Maybe a little OT, but I simply don't see how you develop martial skills without hard sparring.


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 1, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I honestly think sport allows you to better handle the adrenaline dump and increases your overall reaction time.


Would have to agree.  Most folks think hard sparring is learning to give shots but a good dojo will also teach you to manage your reactions to getting hit and the adrenaline that comes from the activation of you flight or fight response.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I don't believe that people are thinking about rules when they're in an actual altercation. I once knew a guy who did Kyokushin karate, and when he got into a bar fight, he was punching the guy in the face all the same. When I got into an fight with a crazy person who tried to turn my brain into paste with a hammer, I was punching him in the face while in guard until I got a hold of his hand and hit the triangle. I didn't let go of the triangle until he was beyond passed out, despite him constantly tapping my legs. I honestly think sport allows you to better handle the adrenaline dump and increases your overall reaction time.
> 
> Additionally when I was in competition mode at my old Bjj school, I was doing a TON of sparring to get ready for a tournament. That helped my overall Bjj skills immensely.
> 
> Maybe a little OT, but I simply don't see how you develop martial skills without hard sparring.


I think the only significant potential for that with sport training is for things that aren't trained. So, a pure-competition BJJ guy might miss easy openings for strikes. More likely, he'll leave easy openings for strikes if he's only trained competition-orientation. Though, once he gets to the ground, a lot of the positional control actually controls striking surprisingly well even without that intent. It'd be more obvious looking at a striker - boxers leave easy takedown opportunities...if you can get past that jab. And they won't have the tools to take advantage of some easy (for a grappler) opportunities to end a conflict.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Maybe a little OT, but I simply don't see how you develop martial skills without hard sparring.


It can be done without _hard _ sparring. I've seen it done with no sparring, but it's not a consistent model, in my experience. Light/technical sparring goes a surprisingly long way in developing skills, and moderate sparring covers most of the rest of the way. I think it's like exercise. A little exercise, done consistently, gives most of the life-extending benefits. Moderate exercise, done consistently, gives most of the fitness benefits. Exercising harder definitely has benefits, but the increased benefits are marginal as the exercise gets harder.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Would have to agree.  Most folks think hard sparring is learning to give shots but a good dojo will also teach you to manage your reactions to getting hit and the adrenaline that comes from the activation of you flight or fight response.


But does that require sport?

To @Hanzou's point, I've had this discussion with folks here before. I really enjoy sport competition (in general - never got into it in MA, though much of my early training was in sport-oriented programs), but never really got more of an adrenaline dump or excitement from actual, sanctioned games than from scrimmage games. I felt and played the same way whether there were spectators or not - I never really paid attention to them. I actually suspect that's part of the reason I never got around to MA competition. I've wondered - and can't say, obviously, lacking the experience - whether there would be a significant difference (for someone like me) between sparring during a class and sparring in a tournament, assuming the same rules and intent to win.


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It can be done without _hard _ sparring. I've seen it done with no sparring, but it's not a consistent model, in my experience.


One may ask themselves what they will actually be able to do without the benefit of practicing at the hardest level.   It’s like the knowing cpr.   How ready
Would you be if you took the course but only practiced in the course compared to a person that practices giving cpr on a regular basis (eg:  ambulance driver).  I think the ambulance driver would be much more prepared to deal with what can come up in that situation.   

It’s not only the instructions but how you practice and the frequency/ intensity that will determine your level of preparation.


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> But does that require sport?


The sport side helps you to develop the tools to deal with pressure situation in a controlled manner.   If you don’t practice in a pressurized situation how do you know you won’t choke or freeze when you are in one ?


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I've wondered - and can't say, obviously, lacking the experience - whether there would be a significant difference (for someone like me) between sparring during a class and sparring in a tournament, assuming the same rules and intent to win.


I think you will notice that adding a non-compliant opponent who is intent on dominating you will change things immensely.  Now you have consequences when you apply a technique incorrectly and often times it will be in front of spectators who may or may not understand the sport but judge you along the lines of their own bias.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> One may ask themselves what they will actually be able to do without the benefit of practicing at the hardest level.   It’s like the knowing cpr.   How ready
> Would you be if you took the course but only practiced in the course compared to a person that practices giving cpr on a regular basis (eg:  ambulance driver).  I think the ambulance driver would be much more prepared to deal with what can come up in that situation.
> 
> It’s not only the instructions but how you practice and the frequency/ intensity that will determine your level of preparation.


But does hard sparring really compare to a life-and-death situation? I don't think it actually does. The closest we could come would be what drop bear refers to as "animal day" - where you really go at each other with no restraints other than trying not to cause gross bodily harm. In hard sparring, I'm not really going to get the defend-or-maybe-die reaction. So, hard sparring doesn't really compare to the person who applies their MA in their job. Unfortunately, I can't really think of an analogy for hard sparring within the CPR analogy. There, training seems to go from technical sparring to observing a real attack, to defending a real attack with backup. This is something a lot of self-defense instructors have tried to find a way to get around, for those folks who won't have a need for the skills on a regular basis. There's just not much way of knowing which - if any - of those methods are actually successful in a given program, even those that are based on good research.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> The sport side helps you to develop the tools to deal with pressure situation in a controlled manner.   If you don’t practice in a pressurized situation how do you know you won’t choke or freeze when you are in one ?


That's what I mean - that can be done without entering a competition (the sport). Same rules, same pressure, just inside the school. There are some differences that we can argue the benefit of (unknown opponent and such), and some that seem inarguable (wider pool to compete against), but the base effect of pressure-testing doesn't require a formal competition.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> I think you will notice that adding a non-compliant opponent who is intent on dominating you will change things immensely.  Now you have consequences when you apply a technique incorrectly and often times it will be in front of spectators who may or may not understand the sport but judge you along the lines of their own bias.


Again, the latter only matters insofar as the competitor pays attention to them.

For the first part, why does that require an audience? Any good opponent can become non-compliant and bring the intent to dominate.


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> But does hard sparring really compare to a life-and-death situation? I don't think it actually does.


I don't there are many of us that are practicing to prepare for life and death situations but I would rather spar hard and come as close to it as I can than to never have that opportunity and THINK that I will be as prepared as someone that spars at a higher intensity on a regular basis.  My two cents.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> I don't there are many of us that are practicing to prepare for life and death situations but I would rather spar hard and come as close to it as I can than to never have that opportunity and THINK that I will be as prepared as someone that spars at a higher intensity on a regular basis.  My two cents.


When I said "life or death" I was referring to the actual use of CPR.


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That's what I mean - that can be done without entering a competition (the sport). Same rules, same pressure, just inside the school. There are some differences that we can argue the benefit of (unknown opponent and such), and some that seem inarguable (wider pool to compete against), but the base effect of pressure-testing doesn't require a formal competition.


Actually this is really not the same at all.  There are guys that do well at dojo sparring but at a tournament (where everyone you face is a non-compliant opponent) have a lot of difficulties because they are no longer facing their dojo mates who are not intent in putting them down.  All your other points are also true but the formal competition gives you that added edge of the unknown that really cannot be found at the school.


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> When I said "life or death" I was referring to the actual use of CPR.


LOL, ok, let's not get distracted by CPR.  I thought it was a reasonable analogy to make but that was before a cup of coffee .


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Again, the latter only matters insofar as the competitor pays attention to them.
> 
> For the first part, why does that require an audience? Any good opponent can become non-compliant and bring the intent to dominate.


The added pressure of the audience is quite significant.  It's like the difference between singing in the shower and singing on America's got talent.   Being in front of the public makes some people very uncomfortable.   Performing in front of an audience can also be very intimidating.   The audience brings out all these factors that one must deal with within their own head as well as worrying about the opponent who's intent and preparation is to put you down.


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## Hanzou (Nov 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It can be done without _hard _ sparring. I've seen it done with no sparring, but it's not a consistent model, in my experience. Light/technical sparring goes a surprisingly long way in developing skills, and moderate sparring covers most of the rest of the way. I think it's like exercise. A little exercise, done consistently, gives most of the life-extending benefits. Moderate exercise, done consistently, gives most of the fitness benefits. Exercising harder definitely has benefits, but the increased benefits are marginal as the exercise gets harder.



Well just for an example the standard side control escape in Bjj requires you to turn into your partner (either via bridging or shrimping) in order to bring your inside knee into their hips to create space. However, when I sparred someone (a former wrestler who was incredibly good at applying top pressure) and I fell into the bottom of his side control my partner drove my upper body forward so that I couldn't turn into him and create the space, even with the arm frame. His driving pressure was so strong that my frame actually worked against me, and the blade of MY hand left a mark on my face.Thus, I immediately realized that that particular side control escape wasn't applicable for every situation and I needed a solution to the problem.

That solution came with a different escape that allowed me to get out of the position almost perfectly. However, I wouldn't have figured that out in a no sparring/light sparring situation. It required hard sparring to figure out, because it was hard sparring that made me realize how dangerous that position could be if I'm dealing with obscenely strong top pressure. I'm glad I found that realization against a training partner on a mat than a mean dude on concrete.

Now, I will concede that I was a bit harsh in my earlier remark. You can definitely gain martial skill, but you develop _better_ martial skill more quickly through hard sparring.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Actually this is really not the same at all.  There are guys that do well at dojo sparring but at a tournament (where everyone you face is a non-compliant opponent) have a lot of difficulties because they are no longer facing their dojo mates who are not intent in putting them down.  All your other points are also true but the formal competition gives you that added edge of the unknown that really cannot be found at the school.


I'd agree they commonly are different. But they don't have to be. It depends upon the folks you train with. Most of my dojo mates wouldn't ever bring that intent. A few training partners were capable and willing to do so. Absent them, it would be difficult to get that same level of experience. Definitely easier to find in competition. 

That added bit of unknown is what I was referring to earlier.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> LOL, ok, let's not get distracted by CPR.  I thought it was a reasonable analogy to make but that was before a cup of coffee .


Agreed. Was just clarifying the confusion about my post. It's not a bad analogy - Steve has brought it up before and it works well for some points. It's just (as most are) incomplete, so we can't chase some points well with it. So, we'll let it die. (Pun entirely intentional.)


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> The added pressure of the audience is quite significant.  It's like the difference between singing in the shower and singing on America's got talent.   Being in front of the public makes some people very uncomfortable.   Performing in front of an audience can also be very intimidating.   The audience brings out all these factors that one must deal with within their own head as well as worrying about the opponent who's intent and preparation is to put you down.


I've been on stage many times as a performer, and speak to audiences as a trainer or presenter dozens of times a year. I'm always much more nervous at auditions than at any other point. I'd rather be in front of 1,000 people. In physical activity, I've never been much affected by audience. I've done demonstrations (non-scripted stuff) to moderate audiences of dozens, including folks from competing schools. Audiences only matter as much as they affect me (or anyone else), and that's going to vary by individual - as will the benefit of that experience.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Well just for an example the standard side control escape in Bjj requires you to turn into your partner (either via bridging or shrimping) in order to bring your inside knee into their hips to create space. However, when I sparred someone (a former wrestler who was incredibly good at applying top pressure) and I fell into the bottom of his side control my partner drove my upper body forward so that I couldn't turn into him and create the space, even with the arm frame. His driving pressure was so strong that my frame actually worked against me, and the blade of MY hand left a mark on my face.Thus, I immediately realized that that particular side control escape wasn't applicable for every situation and I needed a solution to the problem.
> 
> That solution came with a different escape that allowed me to get out of the position almost perfectly. However, I wouldn't have figured that out in a no sparring/light sparring situation. It required hard sparring to figure out, because it was hard sparring that made me realize how dangerous that position could be if I'm dealing with obscenely strong top pressure. I'm glad I found that realization against a training partner on a mat than a mean dude on concrete.
> 
> Now, I will concede that I was a bit harsh in my earlier remark. You can definitely gain martial skill, but you develop _better_ martial skill more quickly through hard sparring.


That is a great example of what I was getting at, Hanzou. And I think BJJ, in general, is a good example of it. Light rolling with appropriate resistance goes a long way to developing good skill. Going a bit harder with increased use of strength and speed to resist goes a good bit further. Going much harder does add some, but it seems to add less (by magnitude) than the previous two steps. What it adds is high-value - there's just less of it.


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'd agree they commonly are different. But they don't have to be.


Respectfully, this is where we can get into circular arguments/discussions.   We feel differently about this and that is ok to me.  I would suggest you try a competition to see if you can understand my viewpoint a little better but that is neither here not there.   If you feel like your training is complete with the things you are doing then that is all that really matters.   Whether you find out if you can or cannot deal with the stresses of competition or high pressure situations with non compliant opponents may not bring much more value to your life or training.  I can accept that too.


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I've been on stage many times as a performer, and speak to audiences as a trainer or presenter dozens of times a year. I'm always much more nervous at auditions than at any other point. I'd rather be in front of 1,000 people. In physical activity, I've never been much affected by audience. I've done demonstrations (non-scripted stuff) to moderate audiences of dozens, including folks from competing schools. Audiences only matter as much as they affect me (or anyone else), and that's going to vary by individual - as will the benefit of that experience.


So you understand the added pressure that an audience can provide.  If you are at a point where this is no longer a factor then perhaps you can make that leap that you will perform very similarly when you do MA in a competition.   It would be interesting to know wouldn't it ?


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Respectfully, this is where we can get into circular arguments/discussions.   We feel differently about this and that is ok to me.  I would suggest you try a competition to see if you can understand my viewpoint a little better but that is neither here not there.   If you feel like your training is complete with the things you are doing then that is all that really matters.   Whether you find out if you can or cannot deal with the stresses of competition or high pressure situations with non compliant opponents may not bring much more value to your life or training.  I can accept that too.


I'm okay with differing opinions on this. Part of the reason I get into these particular discussions is I'm looking for viewpoints beyond my own - looking for who can show me weaknesses in my though patter that I'm not aware of.

In case I haven't been clear, I think the easiest, most reliable way to get this is via some sort of appropriate competition. I sometimes rankle at blanket statements that put competition and "martial arts" as different things (and this is as common from the "MA" side). They really don't have to be. Training can include solid resistance without competition, and some competitions don't provide much benefit for fight training development. But competition is a reliable way to find resistance to test against to further develop MA skills.

On a side note, in case you haven't run into it on the other threads, I've actually been looking into competitions I'd like to try out. I've no idea how much my body can take anymore (precisely, how much my knees and feet can take), but mixing it up in some moderate competitions seems like fun I've missed out on. So, I'm hoping to find someplace to give it a go next year. And - assuming I manage to find someplace to re-start my program - I'll be encouraging students to consider finding competitions to participate in.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> So you understand the added pressure that an audience can provide.  If you are at a point where this is no longer a factor then perhaps you can make that leap that you will perform very similarly when you do MA in a competition.   It would be interesting to know wouldn't it ?


Agreed. I've wondered whether the audience would feel like an audition, or more like my other experiences with audiences. I suspect the latter, but it will be interesting to find out.


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm okay with differing opinions on this. Part of the reason I get into these particular discussions is I'm looking for viewpoints beyond my own - looking for who can show me weaknesses in my though patter that I'm not aware of.


I will try and keep that in mind when we are interacting in the forum.  I am traditionally NOT looking for weaknesses in peoples thought patterns in a forum.  I appreciate that we all have our own particular 'bend' so one solution may not fit all but I will try and help you find the insights you are looking for if the situations present themselves.



gpseymour said:


> They really don't have to be. Training can include solid resistance without competition, and some competitions don't provide much benefit for fight training development. But competition is a reliable way to find resistance to test against to further develop MA skills.


No one will deny that you can still learn something without competitions but, to me, competitions are like the 'test' of your training.   When you can test your training, you can see the truth of it.   Imagine going to school without ever being tested.  How would you know you have learned anything ?  How would know you know if you can use what you learned in a pressurized situation ?  



gpseymour said:


> So, I'm hoping to find someplace to give it a go next year.


 I applaud you and your willingness to put yourself and your training on the line.   Depending on the experience I would expect you will be able to answer many of the questions we have been discussing.  Looking forward to following your progress.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 1, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Maybe a little OT, but I simply don't see how you develop martial skills without hard sparring.



Some people have a lifestyle and/or profession which regularly provides them with real world violent encounters. I suspect that for many of those people the real world experience can be at least as effective as sparring for developing martial skill.

For the rest of us, I agree that sparring is necessary. I actually like a blend of light, moderate, and hard sparring as each brings something a little different to the table.


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## FriedRice (Nov 1, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Some people have a lifestyle and/or profession which regularly provides them with real world violent encounters. I suspect that for many of those people the real world experience can be at least as effective as sparring for developing martial skill.
> .



Maybe a Bouncer or something, but that's still like a small percentage of the entire population...and most Bouncers tend to train Martial Arts anyway.  My first time bouncing, it was nerve racking, but I got used to it real quick as I'm pretty used to violence....whether it's in the form of street fights or at the gym. But bouncing, in my experience, was mostly about helping drunk ****ers who peed all over themselves, up and out of the establishment....w/o getting pee on yourself.


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## dvcochran (Nov 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It might be why it was adopted in Okinawa. I don't know enough of the back story of the art to even know that answer.


There are some many similar stories I have heard regarding various styles. It is hard to tell truth from fiction. The one constant I do believe is that many countries taught fighting tactics to their military. Somewhere in that stew, some of the styles were originally used or developed. Which came first; the chicken or the egg. 
A true side story. My GM is 84. He taught defensive tactics when he was in the South Korean military in the early 1960's. He came to the U.S. in 1974 and began teaching in Nashville, TN. At his 2nd demo to promote his new school he did knock down a horse with a kick. He got in big trouble and spent a little time in jail for the infraction. 
What does that have to do with this thread? Only to bolster that some of the extreme stories we hear about origins have some degree of truth to them. I do believe this is the only practical application to a high kick that can be tied back to the serf/owner domination era's. It is a stretch to say it was a regularly used tactic though.


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## drop bear (Nov 1, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> There are some many similar stories I have heard regarding various styles. It is hard to tell truth from fiction. The one constant I do believe is that many countries taught fighting tactics to their military. Somewhere in that stew, some of the styles were originally used or developed. Which came first; the chicken or the egg.
> A true side story. My GM is 84. He taught defensive tactics when he was in the South Korean military in the early 1960's. He came to the U.S. in 1974 and began teaching in Nashville, TN. At his 2nd demo to promote his new school he did knock down a horse with a kick. He got in big trouble and spent a little time in jail for the infraction.
> What does that have to do with this thread? Only to bolster that some of the extreme stories we hear about origins have some degree of truth to them. I do believe this is the only practical application to a high kick that can be tied back to the serf/owner domination era's. It is a stretch to say it was a regularly used tactic though.



Yeah. Look at a Mongolian horse though. They weren't clydesdales.


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## Buka (Nov 1, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> The added pressure of the audience is quite significant.  It's like the difference between singing in the shower and singing on America's got talent.   Being in front of the public makes some people very uncomfortable.   Performing in front of an audience can also be very intimidating.   The audience brings out all these factors that one must deal with within their own head as well as worrying about the opponent who's intent and preparation is to put you down.



Competing in front of a crowd can be interesting. I'd rather compete in front of a hostile crowd than one rooting for me. I never want to let down a friendly crowd.

I remember the first kick boxing match I was in. It was in front of a friendly crowd. I was nervous about letting them down. One of my corner men was a fellow black belt and best friend. After the first round, sitting on the stool in the corner he said to me, "Can you believe they're paying you five hundred bucks for this? You're buying dinner later, chump". And all my nervousness went away.

Years later one of my black belts had a PKA match. We were in his opponents home town. A bunch of us were sitting in the stands before the fights as the crowd was filling the stands. He comes out to inspect the ring. He's walking around and looks up to us and yells, "Hey! Do you want me to drop him here [he points to a spot on the apron] or here [points to a another spot.] Boy, did people start to boo him. And I'm thinking, "What the hell is he doing, that's not like him".

But he yells it again until one of us answers, we picked the first one. Then the booing really started.

Second round he dropped the guy with a right hand, left hook combo. EXACTLY in the spot we picked. That crowd went so silent you'ld think somebody pressed the big Mute Button of life.

Later he told me that he was informed that his opponent did not do well with really confident people, that's why he did it. AND that the spot the guy landed on - was pure luck.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Nov 1, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I honestly think sport allows you to better handle the adrenaline dump and increases your overall reaction time.



Actual combat focused fighting should cover that as well as its integral at least at this point.


Its more conditioning on what you do, if you get used to doing one thing you might not deviate from doing it much.  if you are used to fighting ina  ring you dont develop the skills to look at your surroundings for objects to use and avoid that sort of thing. 


But sparring should be practiced ina  more combative focus, it is illogical and i would not call it a combat based style if you ddint do a lot of actual practice on resisting opponents in different scenarios etc etc.    Afterall, you learn your mistakes in a controlled enviroment so you dont have as much at risk as you might have if you did them in a actual fight. 

For all intents and purposes i view sport as a means to encourage fitness and practicing martial skill and that sort of thing.   I just think they have drifted away from actual combative instruction too much. I see its use and point, just some styles need to be reeled into a more realistic rule set or contain a lot of outside of sport practice and training etc. 


Excuse words again.        I think i saw a citation to the use of sport to encourage personal and home practice of skills and to encourage fitness to help people become better at fighting, that's probably where a lot of sports separated from combative instruction they didnt see a point in the combat part and cut it over the years.      Both should be put together in my viewpoint, but again i am bias to actual fighting to incapacitate, maim and kill that sort of thing.


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## drop bear (Nov 4, 2018)

Rat said:


> Its more conditioning on what you do, if you get used to doing one thing you might not deviate from doing it much. if you are used to fighting ina ring you dont develop the skills to look at your surroundings for objects to use and avoid that sort of thing.



What do you base this on?

And by the way there is allways a Charlie Zelenof out there. So every sparring session you should be prepared for it to become a fight.


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## dvcochran (Nov 4, 2018)

drop bear said:


> What do you base this on?


Nothing really, it just hit me as funny.


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## drop bear (Nov 4, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Nothing really, it just hit me as funny.



Sparring is always someone potentially trying to hurt you. Accidentally or intentionally.


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## dvcochran (Nov 4, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Sparring is always someone potentially trying to hurt you. Accidentally or intentionally.


Oops, I did not realized I posted on the wrong thread. 
I agree.


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## FriedRice (Nov 5, 2018)

Rat said:


> Its more conditioning on what you do, if you get used to doing one thing you might not deviate from doing it much.  if you are used to fighting ina  ring you dont develop the skills to look at your surroundings for objects to use and avoid that sort of thing.



Have you ever knocked someone out? I stopped counting after I got into the 20's or so. It's really a great sense of accomplishment, seeing another dude drop and up to going unconscious. Or how about just beat someone down until they cower into a ball? I've had this done to me, and never once did I think about upping the level of violence by biting or nut snatching b/c then, the beatdown may not stop after bell rings.   I don't see how training to get really  good at doing this, not usually result in ending most types of street conflicts in most  civilized, Western society that most of us live in. 

Now training to look around for objects? C'mon man, do you really need to pay some dude in a camouflage getup, wearing combat boots on the mat, to teach you how to pick up a chair or lamp to swing at another dude? Really, are you going to go to an actual bar to train? Or is it still in the gym with the camouflaged dude bringing in some chairs & the lamp from the reception area for props? Then you basically Larp around with it using pretend strikes. I'd rather spend my $$$ on range time and get good at shooting the 9mm that I carry + the big*** knife with a 5.5" blade, rather than worry about looking for things to hit people with.


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## drop bear (Nov 5, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> There are some many similar stories I have heard regarding various styles. It is hard to tell truth from fiction. The one constant I do believe is that many countries taught fighting tactics to their military. Somewhere in that stew, some of the styles were originally used or developed. Which came first; the chicken or the egg.
> A true side story. My GM is 84. He taught defensive tactics when he was in the South Korean military in the early 1960's. He came to the U.S. in 1974 and began teaching in Nashville, TN. At his 2nd demo to promote his new school he did knock down a horse with a kick. He got in big trouble and spent a little time in jail for the infraction.
> What does that have to do with this thread? Only to bolster that some of the extreme stories we hear about origins have some degree of truth to them. I do believe this is the only practical application to a high kick that can be tied back to the serf/owner domination era's. It is a stretch to say it was a regularly used tactic though.



You can punt a guy in the head in full armor and drop them.


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## dvcochran (Nov 5, 2018)

drop bear said:


> You can punt a guy in the head in full armor and drop them.


That video is legit. Looks like the armor didn't help much.


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## FriedRice (Nov 6, 2018)

drop bear said:


> You can punt a guy in the head in full armor and drop them.



Rewatching that, does it seem to you that he just gave up after getting cracked (so no necessarily KO'ed), because he just didn't want any more of, probably the same that's bound to come......like he's more of a Larper than a real fighter?   Although I have no idea how it feels getting hit by blunt swords while you have full armor on...but it doesn't seem to hurt....while the kick certainly did.


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## dvcochran (Nov 6, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Rewatching that, does it seem to you that he just gave up after getting cracked (so no necessarily KO'ed), because he just didn't want any more of, probably the same that's bound to come......like he's more of a Larper than a real fighter?   Although I have no idea how it feels getting hit by blunt swords while you have full armor on...but it doesn't seem to hurt....while the kick certainly did.


The leg dropped him. The sword was the follow up. I wondered if he could even see the leg coming with that armor covering his face.


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## FriedRice (Nov 6, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> The leg dropped him. The sword was the follow up. I wondered if he could even see the leg coming with that armor covering his face.



No, my point was, the head kick didn't really drop him...but he's just a Larper who couldn't take/not used to that kind of full powered kick....so he went down and stayed down as a way out/quit.


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## dvcochran (Nov 6, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> No, my point was, the head kick didn't really drop him...but he's just a Larper who couldn't take/not used to that kind of full powered kick....so he went down and stayed down as a way out/quit.


I went back and watched the video. I would say the kick dropped him. He even cringed and leaned forward, into the kick. A likely oh shxx moment.


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## drop bear (Nov 6, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Rewatching that, does it seem to you that he just gave up after getting cracked (so no necessarily KO'ed), because he just didn't want any more of, probably the same that's bound to come......like he's more of a Larper than a real fighter?   Although I have no idea how it feels getting hit by blunt swords while you have full armor on...but it doesn't seem to hurt....while the kick certainly did.



We don't know what the helmet hit. Some piece of metal could have tagged a bit of head and busted something?


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## drop bear (Nov 6, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I went back and watched the video. I would say the kick dropped him. He even cringed and leaned forward, into the kick. A likely oh shxx moment.



That is what he means. He didn't stiffen up like a K O.


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## CB Jones (Nov 6, 2018)

We have no idea how much the guy was concussed or how much he was hurt.

Any opinion on that would be just silly assumption.


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## FriedRice (Nov 6, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I went back and watched the video. I would say the kick dropped him. He even cringed and leaned forward, into the kick. A likely oh shxx moment.



This leads me to believe that hitting dudes in full armor with blunt swords, doesn't do much damage so it's basically high $$$$ Larping,  But the kick, is real blunt force trauma, and this is the case of Larper meets Larper/Fighter....and the Larper folded under real pain.


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## FriedRice (Nov 6, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> We have no idea how much the guy was concussed or how much he was hurt.
> 
> Any opinion on that would be just silly assumption.



More like he was overwhelmed and gave up. This is common to exaggerate damage in order to quit fighting. That dude was just way outmatched and Round 2 would have been just the same.

I've seen videos of dudes getting hit for real in the head/helm with a flail (repeatedly), and they kept on fighting. I don't think a high kick packs more punch.


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## CB Jones (Nov 7, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> More like he was overwhelmed and gave up. This is common to exaggerate damage in order to quit fighting. That dude was just way outmatched and Round 2 would have been just the same.
> 
> I've seen videos of dudes getting hit for real in the head/helm with a flail (repeatedly), and they kept on fighting. I don't think a high kick packs more punch.



Again....you have no idea.  You are working off an assumption based on almost no information.  Doesn't matter how many videos you have seen....you do not know if or how much that person was rattled.


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## FriedRice (Nov 7, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Again....you have no idea.  You are working off an assumption based on almost no information.  Doesn't matter how many videos you have seen....you do not know if or how much that person was rattled.



Aren't you doing the same w/your assumptions? You are.

Sure he was rattled, but I'm just more experienced to see that the guy probably quit due to being a outclassed and didn't want further beating.


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## Martial D (Nov 7, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Again....you have no idea.  You are working off an assumption based on almost no information.  Doesn't matter how many videos you have seen....you do not know if or how much that person was rattled.





FriedRice said:


> Aren't you doing the same w/your assumptions? You are.
> 
> Sure he was rattled, but I'm just more experienced to see that the guy probably quit due to being a outclassed and didn't want further beating.



If you guys are talking about the vid DB posted, it seems like he didn't get knocked out . He didn't stiffen up and fall, he crumpled voluntarily. Seems like a pain response.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> We don't know what the helmet hit. Some piece of metal could have tagged a bit of head and busted something?


And can't see his face to see how disoriented he is. It wasn't a complete KO, but I've seen MMA fighters go down on one knee and not be able to get back up quickly after a kick (which doesn't last long, since the other fighter will move in and the ref will probably end the fight).


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> This leads me to believe that hitting dudes in full armor with blunt swords, doesn't do much damage so it's basically high $$$$ Larping,  But the kick, is real blunt force trauma, and this is the case of Larper meets Larper/Fighter....and the Larper folded under real pain.


Well, the armor was designed to protect against the sword. Even a sharp one wouldn't do much unless they got a solid thrust. It's probably uncomfortable to be hit with it, but not enough to stop an attack. They wouldn't have depended upon the blade for striking damage - more likely the pommel or crosspiece (when held by the blade).


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## CB Jones (Nov 7, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Aren't you doing the same w/your assumpti



I'm not making any assumptions.  I dont know if he was unconscious, just a little rattled, or completely faking.



Martial D said:


> If you guys are talking about the vid DB posted, it seems like he didn't get knocked out . He didn't stiffen up and fall, he crumpled voluntarily. Seems like a pain response.



Not everyone stiffens.  The last time I was knocked unconscious I went completely limp....dropped like a sack of taters...lol


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## Martial D (Nov 7, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Not everyone stiffens.  The last time I was knocked unconscious I went completely limp....dropped like a sack of taters...lol



Perhaps but he didn't go limp, he crumpled into a squatting turtle. The hands came up. I've never seen anyone raise their arms into an 'oh shoot' cover while KOed.

He probable saw the white flash and got rung a bit though I'd wager.


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## FriedRice (Nov 7, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> I'm not making any assumptions.  I dont know if he was unconscious, just a little rattled, or completely faking.



If you "don't know if he was unconscious", then you have very poor judgments as the video showed that he wasn't.  And "completely faking" is an extreme. Maybe you just haven't seen enough videos nor in person to make such a call but it doesn't mean that I can't.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Nov 8, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Now training to look around for objects? C'mon man, do you really need to pay some dude in a camouflage getup, wearing combat boots on the mat, to teach you how to pick up a chair or lamp to swing at another dude? Really, are you going to go to an actual bar to train?



Im not bringing up if anyone will teach right or not, just going over some of the subjects which might be ignored in sports and should be focused on for more combative teaching.

And you are paying some person in what ever uniform they wear with what ever logo their school uses  on it anyway.


Also  they should cover hand to hand skills in any good firearms combative close for close ranges as there is a chance you have to create distance before you can pull a  firearm or knife without your arm being grabbed etc.  But they tend to remind you about observation in it as the person you had a dispute with could have friends and that sort of thing.


also for this armour video, he got kicked in the head by a leg with a metal sheaf to it.  It would have been  stupid idea to kick his head without a piece of Armour on your leg.           Its pretty unpleasant to get hit in the head with anything when you have a helmet on.  (of that type)

Edit:   I REINFORCE THE POINT OF THE LEG HAS A METAL SHEAF TO IT.


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## FriedRice (Nov 8, 2018)

Rat said:


> And you are paying some person in what ever uniform they wear with what ever logo their school uses  on it anyway.



Well I'm paying them to teach me something useful, ie. BJJ techniques....and not to teach me how to pick up a chair and swinging it. I can teach you this for free if you're in my area.



> Also  they should cover hand to hand skills in any good firearms combative close for close ranges as there is a chance you have to create distance before you can pull a  firearm or knife without your arm being grabbed etc.  But they tend to remind you about observation in it as the person you had a dispute with could have friends and that sort of thing.



In general, for gun disarming to work, the guy wielding the gun must make the crucial mistake of pointing it real close to you right? Otherwise, you're getting shot. You ain't faster than that trigger pull.  And most knife defense are baloney, except mine   



> also for this armour video, he got kicked in the head by a leg with a metal sheaf to it.  It would have been  stupid idea to kick his head without a piece of Armour on your leg.           Its pretty unpleasant to get hit in the head with anything when you have a helmet on.  (of that type)
> 
> Edit:   I REINFORCE THE POINT OF THE LEG HAS A METAL SHEAF TO IT.



They are playing Medieval Knights dress-up + fighting.....why would the kicker even wear full armor, minus the leg armor for? For one thing, it would look weird, out of place and those guys really get into period specific, dressing up.

That helmet has a lot of modern tech cushioning on the inside. I posted videos of dudes getting cracked in the head hard with a flail and other weapons, repeatedly....but they didn't fold like this guy did.


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## drop bear (Nov 9, 2018)

So if you just break something important but not knock the guy out. It can look like this.


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