# hand conditioning side effects



## dapidmini

I'm planning to restart hand conditioning by punching (mildly at first) a canvas bag filled with rice.. but before that I'd like to know if the routine will have a bad side effect to my hands after some time. I will also tape my wrist when I punch the bag (as suggested by some people) to prevent injuries to my wrist though.. I heard that the side effects will only detectable after a very long time and certain age..


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## clfsean

dapidmini said:


> I'm planning to restart hand conditioning by punching (mildly at first) a canvas bag filled with rice.. but before that I'd like to know if the routine will have a bad side effect to my hands after some time. I will also tape my wrist when I punch the bag (as suggested by some people) to prevent injuries to my wrist though.. I heard that the side effects will only detectable after a very long time and certain age..



None really. Get some jow from a reliable provider to deal with any bruising and to just in general for before & after practice. But the method I learned was repitition, not hitting hard. Provided you make the strike with proper alignment to begin with you should be ok. Your milage may vary.

BUT MOST IMPORTANT... make sure you have qualified instruction before starting anything.

Sent from my Thunderbolt on Tapatalk. Excuse the auto-correct spelling errors.


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## Pedantix

We condition our knuckles for fore-nuckle karate strikes and boxing and... pisiform, i think its called (the small protruding bone at the bottom of the hand on the pinky side, which is what we use for our shuto, or knife-hand strike) on a makiwara board 3 times a week. I've been doing this for about a year and a half now, starting obviously pretty lightly and working up from there. from what I understand and have seen, if done right, it builds a calloused outer skin and deposits calcium on your bones, which actually increases the size and strength of your knuckles. As far as long term side effects, the only thing I can think of is maybe in increased chance of arthritis developing in you knuckle joints? but other people at my dojo have been doing this much longer than I have and my sensei has done it for many many years and I have never heard anyone say anything about it aside from the positive. I think protecting the wrists is definitely a good idea, and if you have the means to get guidance from a trainer in your area first, thats never a bad thing to consider.


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## WC_lun

Important thing is to understad what it is you are doing, and know when you are doing something wrong.  That takes a qualified instructor.  Repitition is the key, not power for the training you are talking about.  Proper alignment is a MUST.

I don't understand taping the wrist if your goal is conditioning.  That is part of a strike, is it not?  Strike with proper alignment and form and it isn't an issue.  Do not strike with those things in place and the best your strikes can be is as strong as your weak wrist.  It is like having a really deadly bullet in a gun that misfires.  Conditioning for strikes don't begin or end with the hands.

When I was younger I trained with some very bad advice.  Now I have authritis in my knuckles.  A couple of fingers on my right hand also have mild nerve damage.  Just make sure you get good instruction.


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## ilhe4e12345

i talked to my sifu about this. He told me that its more important to do it the right way...just becuase you can punch through a bucket of ball bearings doesnt mean your doing it right....Slow and Steady is the key. Proper execution of the punch or strike is always better then doing it as hard as you can.....

He has some minor nerve damage in his pinky due to years ago not listening to his sifu...since then he has always done it the proper way. Work on the right way, dont get to carried away. He has me doing it 3 months out of the year then for the rest of the year work on something else. I am currently finished with y 3 month plan, as i started back in August. I tell you this, at first you dont really notice or feel a difference, but then towards the end of the 3rd month you begin to feel your hands being "harder". I never punched more then 30 percent when i was training on the sand bags. NEVER....

Happy Training


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## mook jong man

dapidmini said:


> I'm planning to restart hand conditioning by punching (mildly at first) a canvas bag filled with rice.. but before that I'd like to know if the routine will have a bad side effect to my hands after some time. I will also tape my wrist when I punch the bag (as suggested by some people) to prevent injuries to my wrist though.. I heard that the side effects will only detectable after a very long time and certain age..



I cannot speak for any other striking method , but if you are striking using the correct Wing Chun method then you don't need to do any thing to your wrist or hands , just punch properly.


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## DaleDugas

Like many of my brothers who have already posted.  You need to be taught a program safely.  Doing it yourself without being taught could lead you with nerve damage or worse, loss of use.  I have been training my hands for over 20 years and have no ill effects.

I use herbal liniments and internal herbs to ensure no ill effects.

Let me know how I can ever be of service to anyone here on the board.


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## Cyriacus

Ive always used Brick Walls. I am patient, and am still not using Full Power. Conditioning is like lifting Weights. Your Brain doesnt really know the difference between 10kg and 30kg, in terms of how it adapts.

EDIT: This is Instructed, mind You. I didnt just start bashing a wall


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## Xue Sheng

DaleDugas said:


> Like many of my brothers who have already posted.  *You need to be taught a program safely*.  Doing it yourself without being taught could lead you with nerve damage or worse, loss of use.  I have been training my hands for over 20 years and have no ill effects.



Exactly.

What I found amazing when it came to hand conditioning in Sanda was that you were listening for a particular sound and without that you were going to hurt yourself, and we were using trees and walls. But without a shifu I would never have know that.



DaleDugas said:


> I use herbal liniments and internal herbs to ensure no ill effects.
> 
> Let me know how I can ever be of service to anyone here on the board.



Recommendation to the OP...talk to Dale


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## jedtx88

What about good old fashioned knuckle pushups?


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## clfsean

jedtx88 said:


> What about good old fashioned knuckle pushups?




Those are great too!!

However, while they do build the bones of the hand, it's not the same as conditioning with impact. 

Do both, with proper instruction.


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## David43515

Recommendation to the OP...talk to Dale[/QUOTE]

That`s exactly what I was going to say. Dale knows his stuff, and he`s also a reliable source for great Jow. That`s *important* in the longrun.


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## DaleDugas

Let me know how I can be of service to the OP and any well else interested in Iron Palm/Iron Hand training.


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## Dit Da Dave

dapidmini said:


> I'm planning to restart hand conditioning by punching (mildly at first) a canvas bag filled with rice.. but before that I'd like to know if the routine will have a bad side effect to my hands after some time. I will also tape my wrist when I punch the bag (as suggested by some people) to prevent injuries to my wrist though.. I heard that the side effects will only detectable after a very long time and certain age..





dapidmini said:


> I'm planning to restart hand conditioning by punching (mildly at first) a canvas bag filled with rice.. but before that I'd like to know if the routine will have a bad side effect to my hands after some time. I will also tape my wrist when I punch the bag (as suggested by some people) to prevent injuries to my wrist though.. I heard that the side effects will only detectable after a very long time and certain age..




The conditioning that i do is very similar with the canvas bag, but i started with mung beans (much like an Iron Palm progression). But my suggestion are just what worked best for myself. I only do knuckle conditioning in the colder months of the year. (to keep knuckles from flaking/skin to shed) also i don't use Dit Da Jow for knuckle hardening (but used it in conjunction for obvious healing management). OHC (Oriental Herb Company) makes a good IRON FIST liniment for hardening bone for external conditioning (i also use this liniment on shins/radial/ulnar bones) a liniment like this is paramount in your conditioning regiment. again, this is just my personal experience with knuckle conditioning. 

but the other guys on this thread are spot on about proper instruction and proper technique. If you do not treat your hands properly you wont be able to sign your name on a check in very little time.


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## DaleDugas

OTC has very simple formulas that are very basic in nature.

There Iron Fist is rather lacking in certain herbs which make it a superior Iron Fist liniment.

I can help anyone seeking the strongest liniments at the best prices.

I will beat any other competitiors pricing, on all herbs and Dit Da Jow raw herbs especially.


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## rickster

Why is it that some people in martial arts believe they have to condition the hands, shins, or feet?

If you have to condition these areas with having to continuously apply an ointment for a long duration of time, what purpose can it truly gain?

I don&#8217;t care if you were instructed by the Grand Puba of all Conditioning Instruction and you are using the Grand X Ointment, you will still suffer long term problems.

In addition, all of this is thrown out the window if you lack proper methods.
A conditioned area is like a sword. Sure, it can be forged better than others using the sword, but if one cannot properly swing that sword, what good is the weapon?

Or if one has forged it and can swing it, and they come across someone who shoots them, what good was it then?

I knew a martial artist who had his hands, forearms, and shins conditioned well. Upon a scuff on a highway, he got shot and died. All of this training went out of the window because he lost track of one thing-the mentality of how to deal with altercations.


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## blindsage

The only conclusion to be drawn from your statement is that no one should bother training in martial arts at all, by your reasoning at least.


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## rickster

blindsage said:


> The only conclusion to be drawn from your statement is that no one should bother training in martial arts at all, by your reasoning at least.


No. Being a martial artist is more than "conditioning a certain area"

It is this extreme focus of the area which seems to draw attention and at the same time, lesson the degree of study for other areas.

For sure, a martial artist will condition themselves likewise to other people in other physical fields.

But where will the line be drawn for this conditioning?

For example, a football player will train and/or "condition" themself in their field.

But after many years of rigorous conditioning, they retire and age catches up to this rigorous training.

As for a martial artist, if they are going into some type of hardcore fighting competition, like people in Thailand (who by the way do this to try and improve from a level of poverty), then yes, conditioning is a must


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## mograph

blindsage said:


> The only conclusion to be drawn from your statement is that no one should bother training in martial arts at all, by your reasoning at least.


I didn't get that. Instead, I interpreted his statements as "if you don't know how to throw a punch, and don't know how to avoid altercations, then hand/shin/foot conditioning isn't very useful."

I may be wrong, of course.


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## blindsage

rickster said:


> No. Being a martial artist is more than "conditioning a certain area"
> 
> It is this extreme focus of the area which seems to draw attention and at the same time, lesson the degree of study for other areas.
> 
> For sure, a martial artist will condition themselves likewise to other people in other physical fields.
> 
> But where will the line be drawn for this conditioning?
> 
> For example, a football player will train and/or "condition" themself in their field.
> 
> But after many years of rigorous conditioning, they retire and age catches up to this rigorous training.
> 
> As for a martial artist, if they are going into some type of hardcore fighting competition, like people in Thailand (who by the way do this to try and improve from a level of poverty), then yes, conditioning is a must


I'm not a fan of iron palm type training but the way your first post was worded could be applied to any part of MA training, speed, strength, forms, drills, etc.  If it isn't accompanied by "proper methods".  Why single out this particular area?


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## blindsage

mograph said:


> I didn't get that. Instead, I interpreted his statements as "if you don't know how to throw a punch, and don't know how to avoid altercations, then hand/shin/foot conditioning isn't very useful."
> 
> I may be wrong, of course.



Read the 2nd half of the post 



rickster said:


> In addition, all of this is thrown out the window if you lack proper methods.
> A conditioned area is like a sword. Sure, it can be forged better than others using the sword, but if one cannot properly swing that sword, what good is the weapon?
> 
> Or if one has forged it and can swing it, and they come across someone who shoots them, what good was it then?
> 
> I knew a martial artist who had his hands, forearms, and shins conditioned well. Upon a scuff on a highway, he got shot and died. All of this training went out of the window because he lost track of one thing-the mentality of how to deal with altercations.



Why is this a point related to conditioning?  Doesn't it relate to martial arts in general?


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## rickster

blindsage said:


> I'm not a fan of iron palm type training but the way your first post was worded could be applied to any part of MA training, speed, strength, forms, drills, etc.  If it isn't accompanied by "proper methods".  Why single out this particular area?


You hit the nail on the head...

Why single out a particular area....

Yes, many doing conditioning are "single-out this area"


This reminds me of my sister, who wanted to get a handgun for protection.

I told her to seek out instruction as well as a lot of "range time"

She did not focus on that.

All she kept focusing on was obtaining a gun because she thought it was the ultimate protection.

After a period of time, someone had made a attempt to car jack her while she was still in her car.

She pulled out her gun and did not know how to fire it.

She managed to escape with her purse and gun in hand

Upon the arrival by the police, a officer pointed out to her, that her firearm was not loaded. Zero on ammo.


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## rickster

blindsage said:


> Read the 2nd half of the post
> 
> 
> 
> Why is this a point related to conditioning?  Doesn't it relate to martial arts in general?



Because too much is emphasized on conditioning.

Every time someone speaks of conditioning, it is from a view like it is "the must have"


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## Chris Parker

rickster said:


> You hit the nail on the head...
> 
> Why single out a particular area....
> 
> Yes, many doing conditioning are "single-out this area"



Do you seriously think that people posting about conditioning methods and drills are ONLY doing that? What basis do you have for such an assumption? As far as why it's been singled out in this thread, well.... it's a thread about hand conditioning! In conjunction with other training methods and drills, as part of an entire art. 

Seriously, your entire argument is completely lacking in any basis in the discussion.



rickster said:


> This reminds me of my sister, who wanted to get a handgun for protection.
> 
> I told her to seek out instruction as well as a lot of "range time"
> 
> She did not focus on that.
> 
> All she kept focusing on was obtaining a gun because she thought it was the ultimate protection.
> 
> After a period of time, someone had made a attempt to car jack her while she was still in her car.
> 
> She pulled out her gun and did not know how to fire it.
> 
> She managed to escape with her purse and gun in hand
> 
> Upon the arrival by the police, a officer pointed out to her, that her firearm was not loaded. Zero on ammo.



No, that doesn't really have anything to do with this. You, on the one hand, state that people shouldn't focus on just one area, then point out that because your sister didn't focus on this one area, she came up short in reality... what?


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## Cyriacus

To Ricksters story, I went to a firing range about a year ago. Firing guns is surprisingly easy. You load Them, and often, You can just mash the trigger whilst pointing it in the general direction. Pistols are surprisingly stable. Some firearms need to be readied, first. Thats just one quick addition to the process. But hey - Id prefer a knife to a revolver when the person is close enough to headbutt you.

EDIT: Mind, Im not trying to educate You. Im saying, Pistols are surprisingly stable.


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## mograph

blindsage said:


> Read the 2nd half of the post


Hmm ... I was giving the post a favourable reading. However, yes, the argument did diffuse itself somewhat, so I'll try to avoid doing the same and sharpen my critical saw. Must reflect ...


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## rickster

Here is a thought;

One does not need to condition the hands (feet, shins) to be a better martial artist

One does not need to break boards to be a better martial artist

One does not need to have a title (like master) to be a better martial artist

One does not need to have rank/black belt to be a better martial artist

One does not need to go off to China or Japan, to be a better martial artist

And a paradox to state; One does not need to hard core fight to be a better martial artist

Everything about martial art study tends to get blown out of proportion

Hence, hand conditioning


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## Cyriacus

rickster said:


> Here is a thought;
> 
> One does not need to condition the hands (feet, shins) to be a better martial artist
> 
> One does not need to break boards to be a better martial artist
> 
> One does not need to have a title (like master) to be a better martial artist
> 
> One does not need to have rank/black belt to be a better martial artist
> 
> One does not need to go off to China or Japan, to be a better martial artist
> 
> And a paradox to state; One does not need to hard core fight to be a better martial artist
> 
> Everything about martial art study tends to get blown out of proportion
> 
> Hence, hand conditioning



One does not need to train Martial Arts at all.


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## rickster

Cyriacus said:


> One does not need to train Martial Arts at all.



Indeed. Most of the population does not


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## Chris Parker

Just a simple question, then Rickster.... if you are of the opinion that the majority of the population doesn't need to train in martial arts, what are you doing discussing what should and shouldn't be a part of them at all? You might want to remember that this isn't the general forum, this is a specific Chinese martial arts one, who have many systems that utilise conditioning in various forms. You might not use it, but by your reasoning, you don't need martial arts training either. So what are you doing here?


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## Xue Sheng

Hand conditioning in CMA is perfectly fine if done right.

Hand conditioning in CMA is crippling if done wrong

Don&#8217;t want to train hand conditioning&#8230;.don&#8217;t

Want to train hand conditioning&#8230;do it right or don&#8217;t do it at all

Training hand conditioning without a sifu is doing it wrong....so...find a sifu or don't do it at all

The End


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## mograph

Of course, it has to be a _good_ sifu ...


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## rickster

Chris Parker said:


> Just a simple question, then Rickster.... if you are of the opinion that the majority of the population doesn't need to train in martial arts, what are you doing discussing what should and shouldn't be a part of them at all? You might want to remember that this isn't the general forum, this is a specific Chinese martial arts one, who have many systems that utilise conditioning in various forms. You might not use it, but by your reasoning, you don't need martial arts training either. So what are you doing here?



Interesting post, but as there is much oppositon about mine, usually people get offensive when you step onto their cherished-beloved subject

The subject is of hand conditioning and the side effects.

There will be side effects in the long run to any type of conditioning. 

Thus, we have to look up the reason of the need;

It used to be that a martial artist had to train rigorous, per many were of military, body guards-escorts.

Now, if one is to train in hardcore fighting, like MT, then sure, they have to condition themselves.

Look upon the many martial arts/artists that do not do breaking, nor do hard core hand-shin conditioning, high kicking, etc.

Why would anyone train this way, when decades later in their life, they will still have to apply a ointment or seek other medical attention to ?

Is it that people who train hardcore, are social outcasts or are maybe those who have a mental state of obessiveness who have a belief of paranoia necessity?


But, we are in a modern age, and martial arts has come to pass as more like a solice fad.

All that martial arts offer, can be obtained from some form or another within the world.

Simply, the masses are not martial artists.

Martial arts, like some other activities, could also be consdiered as a zealous fad.


I am on a martial art forum, because I am a martial artist.

I have been one nearly 4 decades.

I, too. started off with the many "entertaining ideas-myths-associations", but I grew to understand that a large part of this was not necessary-as I grew older and fell more in to modern society.

I take upon a more realistic approach of how I, as a martial artist, train, need, and use my skill set, *IN *accordance to modern society.

We, as martial artists in modern society, will hardly ever have to use hardcore hand-shin conditioning/breaking, jumping-high kicks, etc, to be successful martial arts *in* modern society

Just like there are "realistic-modern" self defense aproaches, " "realistic-modern" weaponry, anything being studied or trained without a"realistic-modern" mindset, "could be considered"; as a waste of time, or a contribution to a zealot fad or hobby.


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## DaleDugas

I teach Iron Palm as well as Iron Body and recently broke some coconuts at the Tai Chi Gala.

I can teach you these skills without causing any issues.

I am a licensed acupuncturist and herbalist and my hands are my livelihood.

If anyone is interested I teach these skills openly.


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## Chris Parker

Oh dear.



rickster said:


> Interesting post, but as there is much oppositon about mine, usually people get offensive when you step onto their cherished-beloved subject



There's "much opposition" as you seem to be basically telling people that they're wasting their time by training in their chosen arts, with the seeming argument that because not every martial artist gets in serious fights, it's useless? Then you wonder why they get upset with your comments?



rickster said:


> The subject is of hand conditioning and the side effects.



Close. It's asking about proper methods and potential side effects. Note the important word there.



rickster said:


> There will be side effects in the long run to any type of conditioning.



No, not if things are done properly. But, judging from this post of yours, as well as all your other posts, you have no experience with actual conditioning methods yourself, so I'm not sure where you're getting this from... 



rickster said:


> Thus, we have to look up the reason of the need;



Except you're only looking at one potential need, not at the variety that exist.



rickster said:


> It used to be that a martial artist had to train rigorous, per many were of military, body guards-escorts.



Were they now? Anything to actually back that up? I believe you'll find that there were many other people who were martial artists... and that the military were, by and large, not.



rickster said:


> Now, if one is to train in hardcore fighting, like MT, then sure, they have to condition themselves.



But for no other form of art? 



rickster said:


> Look upon the many martial arts/artists that do not do breaking, nor do hard core hand-shin conditioning, high kicking, etc.



I really don't know what high-kicking has to do with anything there.... 



rickster said:


> Why would anyone train this way, when decades later in their life, they will still have to apply a ointment or seek other medical attention to ?



Still apply an ointment? According to who? The Dit Da Jow mentioned isn't something that requires being applied to prevent injuries later in life, you know... although it can be good for a range of things. This, amongst other comments, leads me to believe you have no experience in such training.



rickster said:


> Is it that people who train hardcore, are social outcasts or are maybe those who have a mental state of obessiveness who have a belief of paranoia necessity?



Uh... no? I really don't have a clue what you're going on about here.... 



rickster said:


> But, we are in a modern age, and martial arts has come to pass as more like a solice fad.



Is that supposed to be "social" fad? But, if so, I'd argue no. Martial arts are not a fad, and people are drawn to them for far deeper reasons than many might realise, when it all comes down to it.



rickster said:


> All that martial arts offer, can be obtained from some form or another within the world.



Sure, but not in the same way. Still, the same things that you can get from football, you can get from baseball, so why not just get rid of football? Just pointless, isn't it?



rickster said:


> Simply, the masses are not martial artists.



But we're not dealing with the masses, we're dealing with people who are already training in (in this case) Chinese martial arts, which often includes hand conditioning as part of the training regime.



rickster said:


> Martial arts, like some other activities, could also be consdiered as a zealous fad.



Are you sure you're wanting to be part of a martial arts community, then?



rickster said:


> I am on a martial art forum, because I am a martial artist.
> 
> I have been one nearly 4 decades.



Then why the attitude that it's all pointless? And what arts have you been studying for the past 4 decades?



rickster said:


> I, too. started off with the many "entertaining ideas-myths-associations", but I grew to understand that a large part of this was not necessary-as I grew older and fell more in to modern society.
> 
> I take upon a more realistic approach of how I, as a martial artist, train, need, and use my skill set, *IN *accordance to modern society.



Except you're only looking at an immediate practicality in what you do, and that's not all there is to martial arts. In fact, I'd say it's the least aspect. Hand conditioning may be preparatory work for later parts of the system, for instance, which cannot be attained if sufficient conditioning isn't trained.



rickster said:


> We, as martial artists in modern society, will hardly ever have to use hardcore hand-shin conditioning/breaking, jumping-high kicks, etc, to be successful martial arts *in* modern society



Again with the high kicks... but seriously, what's the point you're trying to make here? My training isn't for others, it's for me, and what I do in my training isn't really anything to do with society as a whole either.



rickster said:


> Just like there are "realistic-modern" self defense aproaches, " "realistic-modern" weaponry, anything being studied or trained without a"realistic-modern" mindset, "could be considered"; as a waste of time, or a contribution to a zealot fad or hobby.



Wow. I really don't know what you're doing here, you don't seem to think there's any reason to train in any aspect of martial arts at all....


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## rickster

Chris Parker said:


> Oh dear.


Oh brother






Chris Parker said:


> There's "much opposition" as you seem to be basically telling people that they're wasting their time by training in their chosen arts, with the seeming argument that because not every martial artist gets in serious fights, it's useless? Then you wonder why they get upset with your comments?


I am basically saying that there are reasons to do things and do look upon these reasons of the "why", instead of "just doing"




Chris Parker said:


> Close. It's asking about proper methods and potential side effects. Note the important word there.


Potentital, er, the word should be changed to more likely




Chris Parker said:


> No, not if things are done properly. But, judging from this post of yours, as well as all your other posts, you have no experience with actual conditioning methods yourself, so I'm not sure where you're getting this from...



I dont care how "properly" one thinks they are doing it. The body can oonly withstand a degree os this and then age catches up.
But I guess, no one care to interview old asters who have done this and have suffered from side effects




Chris Parker said:


> Except you're only looking at one potential need, not at the variety that exist.


Nope. As I stated somewhere, some look upon the "potential need" to condition, and focus on this, than utilising a variety that exist
So, thanks, you proved my point. (From one of my other posts)





Chris Parker said:


> Were they now? Anything to actually back that up? I believe you'll find that there were many other people who were martial artists... and that the military were, by and large, not.


Yeah, and they did this why? I guess they were in a modern society....





Chris Parker said:


> I really don't know what high-kicking has to do with anything there....


Sure it does. It is as much a thing to do not from modern necessity as hardcore conditioning and breaking, etc






Chris Parker said:


> Still apply an ointment? According to who? The Dit Da Jow mentioned isn't something that requires being applied to prevent injuries later in life, you know... although it can be good for a range of things. This, amongst other comments, leads me to believe you have no experience in such training.


Prevent injuries....Nah, its about doing something so much, that you need to apply a ointment to aid




Chris Parker said:


> Is that supposed to be "social" fad? But, if so, I'd argue no. Martial arts are not a fad, and people are drawn to them for far deeper reasons than many might realise, when it all comes down to it.


Yep-FAD...You dont need it in modern society to survive.....






Chris Parker said:


> Sure, but not in the same way. Still, the same things that you can get from football, you can get from baseball, so why not just get rid of football? Just pointless, isn't it?


I am not or never stated to "get rid of martial arts" I am saying that if it was such a "grand puba" of something needed, why aren't the masses doing it, leaving a few to not (per vise versa)






Chris Parker said:


> But we're not dealing with the masses, we're dealing with people who are already training in (in this case) Chinese martial arts, which often includes hand conditioning as part of the training regime.


Wow. I guess you got me there. I guess you also proved my point about the "minority" (CMA)






Chris Parker said:


> Are you sure you're wanting to be part of a martial arts community, then?


One can be a part of anything. And thus, once they were for many years, they can speak their mind on what they dont agree with....






Chris Parker said:


> Then why the attitude that it's all pointless? And what arts have you been studying for the past 4 decades?


Again, I am not really stating that it is "ALL POINTLESS", I am stating how people get obessed wiith something, esp not of necessity in modern society.

Think of it as religion.

Everyone is out there claiming theirs is the way to go.

But there is so much out there, that too many people "put on blinders"


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## mograph

Xue Sheng said:


> Hand conditioning in CMA is perfectly fine if done right.
> Hand conditioning in CMA is crippling if done wrong
> Dont want to train hand conditioning.dont
> Want to train hand conditioningdo it right or dont do it at all
> Training hand conditioning without a sifu is doing it wrong....so...find a sifu or don't do it at all
> 
> The End


I think this is a very clear post. In contrast, I haven't seen much clarity come from the recent posts that attempt to clarify positions, so it might be a good time to take a breath and discuss proper, safe methods of hand conditioning for those who wish to undertake it _for their own reasons._

Personally, I know nothing about the subject that I haven't read in this forum. If I were to actually undertake the study of hand conditioning, i would seek out a sifu and meet his students, especially the older ones. But given all I have on my plate, it's a low priority, and I expect that it would be a long time before hand conditioning is the weakest link in my martial skillset, such as it is.  :asian:


----------



## Chris Parker

rickster said:


> Oh brother



Okay, it's going to be one of those... 



rickster said:


> I am basically saying that there are reasons to do things and do look upon these reasons of the "why", instead of "just doing"



How's this for a reason: because it's part of the systems training. If you don't want to do it, don't train in that system. You obviously don't want it, you don't train it, but that doesn't mean that it's wrong, or the reasons for training it for others isn't valid. As a result, your entire argument is really beside the point of this thread. Give it up.



rickster said:


> Potentital, er, the word should be changed to more likely



"Potentital"? Well, I'd change it into English first... but no, it shouldn't be changed to "more likely". Potential side effects/injuries etc are really only present if the conditioning is approached badly, taught badly (or done without guidance) in the first place. When done properly, there's really no issue in that regard. And that's coming from someone with nearly 20 years of conditioning experience here... what was yours again?



rickster said:


> I dont care how "properly" one thinks they are doing it. The body can oonly withstand a degree os this and then age catches up.
> But I guess, no one care to interview old asters who have done this and have suffered from side effects



Can you answer whether or not you've got any actual experience to back this up with? Because you really don't seem to know how conditioning is achieved here.



rickster said:


> Nope. As I stated somewhere, some look upon the "potential need" to condition, and focus on this, than utilising a variety that exist
> So, thanks, you proved my point. (From one of my other posts)



I hardly proved any point you've tried to make, mate. You have stated that the reason not to do so is because the student might never end up in a fight, making all the effort put into conditioning moot... you have, however, been presented with other possible reasons, or needs, for the training, but seem to have refused to acknowledge them. 

Oh, and if you could possibly manage some grammar in one of your posts, that'd be appreciated (I have no idea what "...and focus on this, than utilising a variety that exist" is supposed to actually mean...).



rickster said:


> Yeah, and they did this why? I guess they were in a modern society....



No, they weren't. You may want to start reading up a bit more before announcing your understanding of history... 



rickster said:


> Sure it does. It is as much a thing to do not from modern necessity as hardcore conditioning and breaking, etc



(Me) "I really don't know what high-kicking has to do with anything there...."
(You) "Sure it does". 

Dude, grammar. Please. Sure it does... what? Have something to do with the discussion of hand conditioning? Are you serious? Do you have a clue about what makes a martial art, and why it does things the way it does? Or do you just feel that any martial artist that does something you don't get shouldn't do it, regardless of which art they're training in?



rickster said:


> Prevent injuries....Nah, its about doing something so much, that you need to apply a ointment to aid



No, it's not. That's not what the ointment is for (the way you're saying it). You really don't have a single days experience in this, do you? Or are you going to avoid answering that question again?



rickster said:


> Yep-FAD...You dont need it in modern society to survive.....



Firstly, that's not the definition of a fad. In fact, the definition of a fad centers on it's position in a modern society, so I really think you should rethink the words you're choosing here.

That said, you're showing (again) a huge lack of understanding of martial arts, and why they're trained today again.



rickster said:


> I am not or never stated to "get rid of martial arts" I am saying that if it was such a "grand puba" of something needed, why aren't the masses doing it, leaving a few to not (per vise versa)



Except you're on a martial arts forum, arguing that essential aspects of some arts shouldn't be trained, as you can't see value in them, which has turned to you saying that there isn't really much value in martial arts at all (in a modern society)... I really have to ask again, what the hell are you doing here?



rickster said:


> Wow. I guess you got me there. I guess you also proved my point about the "minority" (CMA)



Are you delusional?!? There is nothing in my post that "proves" anything close to a point for you.



rickster said:


> One can be a part of anything. And thus, once they were for many years, they can speak their mind on what they dont agree with....



Except you're talking absolute garbage, and have shown no ability to take on board anything you're being told. Honestly, the only reason I can see for what you're doing is that you're enjoying trolling.



rickster said:


> Again, I am not really stating that it is "ALL POINTLESS", I am stating how people get obessed wiith something, esp not of necessity in modern society.
> 
> Think of it as religion.
> 
> Everyone is out there claiming theirs is the way to go.
> 
> But there is so much out there, that too many people "put on blinders"



Again, you're saying that because you don't see value, no-one should do it. 

How about you take this on board, Rickster... this thread is about the proper methods for hand conditioning within Chinese martial arts. It is not about whether or not one should engage in hand conditioning. So, if you don't have anything to say about correct methods (and saying that you think everyone who does it gets injured and "needs ointment" really just shows you don't have a clue about the actual methods, so you know), I'd suggest refraining from getting involved. But if you do decide to post again, can you do us one favour? Answer the damn questions you've been asked before you get to anything else. It's just good netiquette...


----------



## Master Dan

While you are focusing on conditioning the hand remember especially young who are still forming bones and the older that entire body is involved wrist elbow arm shoulder neck and even lower lumbar related to more dificult breaks.

The extreme focus on building calcium deposits on knuckes and hands is not necessary related to self defense. it is good to be able to hit or strike as hard as you can at floor or other objects with out injury and more than once shows conditioning but extreme breaking lik my GM who was one of the strongest I have ever seen punching or knife hand 5 center blocks no spacing no fakery wet dry didn't matter also 7 ounce coke bottles smashing with punch or knife hand with out injury at the time in later years broke so many of the small bones behind the knuckles he had to have surgery and his hand looked more like a claw in the end for what purpose.

Those in the know understand that controled striking and manipulation to vital areas with hardened areas of the hands, knuckles and other parts of the body do not require extreme force or conditioning that will lead to pain and loss of use in later years. People need to take out the Ego in breaking, wood brick other non living objects in time always win. Moderation and council from an experience master should be followed and sad to say some are sadistic in enjoying your pain.

young or old anyone who once breaks any of the small bones behind the knuckles will not heal properly for life it will have a lump and pain and will rebreak again!


----------



## mograph

Assuming you only wanted to strike an _opponent_ (not a brick, board or block), would you need to condition your hands to avoid injuring them (by accidentally hitting a skull or a jaw)? And if so, to what extent should the hands be conditioned?

(I don't mean you'd _condition_ them by hitting a skull or a jaw -- I mean you might _injure_ them by hitting a skull or jaw accidentally. Hope that's clear. Otherwise that'd be one bad-*** dojo. "Hold still, kid.")


----------



## Master Dan

mograph said:


> Assuming you only wanted to strike an _opponent_ (not a brick, board or block), would you need to condition your hands to avoid injuring them (by accidentally hitting a skull or a jaw)? And if so, to what extent should the hands be conditioned?
> 
> (I don't mean you'd _condition_ them by hitting a skull or a jaw -- I mean you might _injure_ them by hitting a skull or jaw accidentally. Hope that's clear. Otherwise that'd be one bad-*** dojo. "Hold still, kid.")



Again teaching by two demensional means book computer is very limited. Theory is what it is the street is fluid changing savage. proper conditioning should help you to be able to take a blow especially in CMA as well as inflict if necessary.

Injury is possible no matter what conditioning. The condition should be such that you can strike hard enough to gain the desired effect with out permenant injury to your self but also I teach my students options or think of the end result of your actions? striking the nose while effecting results in lots of blood and blackend eyes for police and a jury to look at while winding them control grappling escape or even making them unconcious with out side effects is much better for your liabilty let alone. Every situation is different better yet to not be there avoid at all cost if you can't if its a total surprise bad planning on your part you will do what you practice not what someone tells you or read in a book.

The possibilty for you to hurt another person accidently is always a possiblity it is my first concern unles there is 3 or more. 

When I travled and trained nation wide I would often go into random training facilities like the two guys on Dicovery channel getting the crap beat out of them to experience different styles and I do not remember the sate or style but mid to East coast and they would train with out shirts bare fist striking differnet parts of the body to condition taking the hit and they trained thier big toes to strike at a person's hip joint to dislocate very hard core. 

Just keep in mind you build your body up not tear it down


----------



## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> I think this is a very clear post. In contrast, I haven't seen much clarity come from the recent posts that attempt to clarify positions, so it might be a good time to take a breath and discuss proper, safe methods of hand conditioning for those who wish to undertake it _for their own reasons._
> 
> Personally, I know nothing about the subject that I haven't read in this forum. If I were to actually undertake the study of hand conditioning, i would seek out a sifu and meet his students, especially the older ones. But given all I have on my plate, it's a low priority, and I expect that it would be a long time before hand conditioning is the weakest link in my martial skillset, such as it is. :asian:



I am not qualified to tell someone how to train this. I have trained it under a sifu who was and it was not fists (knuckles) it was palm strikes. He did not train for fists, he did train for palm, knee, elbow, foot shoulder but not fist, fist strikes are not part of his CMA. I would like to add it was some of the most internally focused strike training I have had and it was from an art that is considered, even by those who train it, hardcore external and there is much more to this style than just hitting too.

I only trained palm because, to be honest, I could not get myself to hit a tree or a wall with my elbow or knee. Beyond that I will tell you one of the key things in this styles training of this is the sound you are looking for when you hit trees and walls. It is not just pounding on stuff as hard as you can.... that is a great way to break stuff you do not want to break... you are training to hit hard not break yourself. 

My Taiji sifu sees no reason for this at all and he is traditionally trained, but then he is also a big fan of qinna. The person that I guess could be considered my shigung based on my current Xingyi sifu was very much into hitting trees and a lot of that with his forearms


----------



## ride57

Well,let me add something if I may. I started the Iron palm in 2005, with store bought jow. I now buy herbs from Dale or Plum Dragon Herbs and brew my own. Now, before I started, I had trigger finger (stenosing tenosynovitis) in 3 fingers of my right hand and 2 fingers of my left.  It was difficult to work (scrub tech) as I would literally have to pry my fingers off of instruments to pass them to the Dr.  Multiple steroid shots really didn't do anything. 

Now, I only have one finger that will lock. I practice iron palm off and on. And I always use jow. I think the combo of the massaging and the jow got rid of the trigger finger. (or else the steroid injections took 3 years to work) So, did iron palm ruin my hands? I am gonna say no. Let me also say that I am NOT trying to get 1/2 inch knuckles to break boards.

I think that when people train to get big knuckles to enable fist breaks, this is where problems happen, There is so much scar tissue that it prevents the tendons from working properly, and prevents proper range of motion. I work in a OR, so I see what happens when people get multiple surgeries on knees, fingers etc. They have a hard time flexing the joint due to excessive scar tissue build up.     

So, I will continue to practice my iron palm.


----------



## rickster

Iron Palm......know what happens to iron after a long period of time.....


----------



## mograph

rickster said:


> Iron Palm......know what happens to iron after a long period of time.....


Under what conditions? Please be specific.:hmm:


----------



## WC_lun

rickster said:


> Iron Palm......know what happens to iron after a long period of time.....



Depends entirely on if the iron is cared for properly...much like iron palm training.


----------



## Xue Sheng




----------



## rickster

mograph said:


> Under what conditions? Please be specific.:hmm:



iron rusts


----------



## oaktree

What ever happen to pan qing Fu? 
I remember seeing him on a lot of magazines a long time ago.


----------



## mograph

WC_lun said:


> Depends entirely on if the iron is cared for properly...much like iron palm training.


Indeed. Regular use and oiling can keep iron machinery in good shape. It is abuse and neglect that can turn iron to rust.


----------



## blindsage

rickster said:


> iron rusts


Sooooo...you're saying your hands will rust.   Well that's just plain ridiculous, hands don't rust.


----------



## Xue Sheng

blindsage said:


> Sooooo...you're saying your hands will rust. Well that's just plain ridiculous, hands don't rust.



Maybe he is thinking of this Iron Fist


----------



## pete

It's better to burn out, Rust Never Sleeps...


----------



## rickster

mograph said:


> Indeed. Regular use and oiling can keep iron machinery in good shape. It is abuse and neglect that can turn iron to rust.



Machinery constantly being pushed to the limits, wear out


----------



## rickster

blindsage said:


> Sooooo...you're saying your hands will rust.   Well that's just plain ridiculous, hands don't rust.



metaphor


----------



## Xue Sheng

rickster said:


> Machinery constantly being pushed to the limits, wear out




Which could be defined as "not training properly"


----------



## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:


> Which could be defined as "not training properly"



definitely true.


I will say tho, proper training or not, I have no interest in having hands that look like Pan's.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:


> definitely true.
> 
> 
> I will say tho, proper training or not, I have no interest in having hands that look like Pan's.




Nor do I.


----------



## rickster

Flying Crane said:


> definitely true.
> 
> 
> I will say tho, proper training or not, I have no interest in having hands that look like Pan's.


He had said his hands ached alot

I think he had taught Cynthia Rothrock


----------



## Chris Parker

I'm going to try this one more time:

Rickster, what actual experience do you have to make any comments on the validity, or even know what proper training would entail, including what the results would be? Because nothing you've posted shows the slightest piece of experience or knowledge here whatsoever. You just keep repeating your own lack of belief in hand conditioning training, even though you have no relevant experience to base that on. We've heard your stance on this, but you have yet to back it up with anything other than poorly constructed metaphors and ill-informed statements. So either provide something with some back up, or recognise that you're just not adding anything to this conversation, especially considering the forum it's in. Deal?


----------



## Cyriacus

rickster said:


> Machinery constantly being pushed to the limits, wear out


That happens anyway.
With your entire body.
Every day.


----------



## rickster

Cyriacus said:


> That happens anyway.
> With your entire body.
> Every day.



So why subject the body to more wear and tear than what is has to go through


----------



## Chris Parker

You're right. No-one should exercise. 

What the hell are you doing here?


----------



## rickster

Chris Parker said:


> I'm going to try this one more time:
> 
> Rickster, what actual experience do you have to make any comments on the validity, or even know what proper training would entail, including what the results would be? Because nothing you've posted shows the slightest piece of experience or knowledge here whatsoever. You just keep repeating your own lack of belief in hand conditioning training, even though you have no relevant experience to base that on. We've heard your stance on this, but you have yet to back it up with anything other than poorly constructed metaphors and ill-informed statements. So either provide something with some back up, or recognise that you're just not adding anything to this conversation, especially considering the forum it's in. Deal?



First off, why will I continue to post about something I have not gained experienced or knowledge of?


So, if I state I trained with;

 * a Shaolin monk

* Master Pan or ___(insert well known here)

This aids in credibility.?

(My background of whom I trained with will do this, but this should not be a criteria alone)

Therefore;

This thread says "*hand conditioning side effects*"

Because I have trained in this long ago.

Because I have know others, including teachers also.

Because when you get to a certain old age, *it will effect* you.

Now, some of my family are farmers and fishermen, and they put their hands through many rigors.

Thus, many of them when they got older, had medical problems with their hands as well.

So, speaking from decades of experiences and speaking to others past  their 50's whom train in this...I guess *no one will ever suffer side  effects*?

When you continue to put the hands (or any stressed appendage) past their threshold, *there will be side effects*-no one should believe there *will not* by any sort.

*Age catches* up and yet the body will start to succumb to ailments.

The hands (or any stressed appendage) *will suffer*.

(Think of this as knees of football players)



Speaking of Master Pan, he conditioned his hands *during an era* of hardcore hand-to-hand strife.
In most modern societies, this is unnecessary

It is all common sense.

Many martial artists do not need to do this.

Unless you are going into a "continuous" rigorous combat situation, not of which are common street-social brawls, then your other training, 
In a "polite" word to sum it up; *superfluity*


----------



## rickster

Chris Parker said:


> You're right. No-one should exercise.
> 
> What the hell are you doing here?



Exercise is one thing. Conditioning the hands is another.

You are playing semantics


----------



## rickster

Chris Parker said:


> You're right. No-one should exercise.
> 
> What the hell are you doing here?



What the hell are you doing here?

Cool...exercise...then you ought to not be a martial artist also, because it seems like you "exercise"


Chris Parker,

Your signature/tag states With Respect

But when anyone posts in opposing views you state;

What the hell are they doing here?

^^ In accordance to your dumbfounded question;

Thereby, whenever someone has an opposing view, they are no longer a martial artist?

They no longer belong to a martial art forum?

I am here because I am a martial artist.

You should never question this if you are trying to have a debate conversation
In any debate, asking this question is obtuse.
The purpose of "anyone" being in "any" debate is clear

If I PM by background, this will have you satisfied, but it should not come to this


----------



## Cyriacus

Exercise works your muscles.
Conditioning works your bones.


----------



## rickster

Cyriacus said:


> Exercise works your muscles.
> Conditioning works your bones.



Overdoing either is not good.

Besides, the large percent of the world whom take health seriously, do not condition the bones in this fashion.


----------



## Cyriacus

rickster said:


> Overdoing either is not good.
> 
> Besides, the large percent of the world whom take health seriously, do not condition the bones in this fashion.


Overdoing either is bad indeed.

Ill leave the other angle to Chris though


----------



## Chris Parker

Right, my internet seems to be stable enough to start to get back to things... 



rickster said:


> First off, why will I continue to post about something I have not gained experienced or knowledge of?



Yeah, that was the basic question... with a subtle distinction based on the way you've been posting. 



rickster said:


> So, if I state I trained with;
> 
> * a Shaolin monk
> 
> * Master Pan or ___(insert well known here)
> 
> This aids in credibility.?



Right. You seem to have missed why you were being asked what your background is. Namely that you showed basically no understanding of what is involved in hand conditioning, gave no evidence of any of your arguments, and just repeated over and over that hand conditioning was bad for you (without backing it up at all). As a result, I was looking for any form of backup to your claims, whether in the form of you actually having experience, or not, otherwise there was no reason for anyone to listen to your comments.



rickster said:


> (My background of whom I trained with will do this, but this should not be a criteria alone)
> 
> Therefore;
> 
> This thread says "*hand conditioning side effects*"
> 
> Because I have trained in this long ago.



Right, that's better. Are you saying here that you have undergone hand conditioning training? That would provide some credibility and support to what you've been saying, although I have yet to see any actual support for your comments outside of poorly conducted and lead training.



rickster said:


> Because I have know others, including teachers also.
> 
> Because when you get to a certain old age, *it will effect* you.



No-one has said it might not be an issue, but the thing is that, when trained properly, such issues are minimised to the point of being non-existant. The thing has been that you have repeated this claim, but offered nothing at all to support it. That's why you're being questioned.



rickster said:


> Now, some of my family are farmers and fishermen, and they put their hands through many rigors.
> 
> Thus, many of them when they got older, had medical problems with their hands as well.
> 
> So, speaking from decades of experiences and speaking to others past their 50's whom train in this...I guess *no one will ever suffer side effects*?



And? That's really not the same thing at all, you realize.



rickster said:


> When you continue to put the hands (or any stressed appendage) past their threshold, *there will be side effects*-no one should believe there *will not* by any sort.



Yes. One of the main ones (again, when conducted properly) is that they are strengthened. Hence the entire concept of hand conditioning... 



rickster said:


> *Age catches* up and yet the body will start to succumb to ailments.
> 
> The hands (or any stressed appendage) *will suffer*.
> 
> (Think of this as knees of football players)



Again, really not the same thing at all.



rickster said:


> Speaking of Master Pan, he conditioned his hands *during an era* of hardcore hand-to-hand strife.
> In most modern societies, this is unnecessary



Sure. Takamatsu (in the Ninjutsu circles) said the same thing. That doesn't mean, however, that hand conditioning is inherently bad for your hands, just that extreme forms of it are. Again, when it's done properly... 



rickster said:


> It is all common sense.
> 
> Many martial artists do not need to do this.



But many do, as part and parcel of the specific art that they're training in. Just because you don't like it, you don't value it, and so on, doesn't mean that anyone who does value it is wasting their time. Especially when we're talking about arts (traditional Chinese systems) that have conditioning as a core practice in their art, for a variety of reasons.



rickster said:


> Unless you are going into a "continuous" rigorous combat situation, not of which are common street-social brawls, then your other training,



Er, do you mean to have the word "is" here?



rickster said:


> In a "polite" word to sum it up; *superfluity*



Only according to your value system. And that's the thing you have failed to grasp, which is why I've asked what basis you've had for your comments.



rickster said:


> Exercise is one thing. Conditioning the hands is another.
> 
> You are playing semantics



No, I'm not. Exercise works by slightly traumatizing your body, forcing it to respond and grow stronger. It's the basic principle behind weight lifting (stress and slightly damage the muscles so they repair themselves stronger, which is why it's said that the growth [of muscle] happens on your rest days, not the workout days). It's the same idea with hand conditioning.



rickster said:


> What the hell are you doing here?
> 
> Cool...exercise...then you ought to not be a martial artist also, because it seems like you "exercise"



Way to miss the point, Rickster.... 



rickster said:


> Chris Parker,
> 
> Your signature/tag states &#8220;With Respect&#8221;
> 
> But when anyone posts in opposing views you state;
> 
> &#8220;What the hell are they doing here?&#8221;



No, when someone constantly repeats the same ill-informed statements, taking no account of the counter arguments, ignoring any requests for where such ideas came from, with no evidence of any background that is relevant to the topic at hand, repeating ad nauseum yet supplying no evidence, seemingly only to disrupt the discussion, and certainly not adding anything to it, that's when I ask what the hell they're doing in a particular thread. Case in point: you here.



rickster said:


> ^^ In accordance to your dumbfounded question;



"Dumbfounded" question? I don't think you quite get what that word means... 



rickster said:


> Thereby, whenever someone has an opposing view, they are no longer a martial artist?
> 
> They no longer belong to a martial art forum?
> 
> I am here because I am a martial artist.



No, Rickster. When someone acts the way you have, as detailed above, then I question what value they think they are adding to the thread. I'm not talking about the forum in general, but this specific thread. 



rickster said:


> You should never question this if you are trying to have a debate conversation
> In any debate, asking this question is obtuse.
> The purpose of "anyone" being in "any" debate is clear



You're kidding, yeah? If this was a debate about car racing, and the best ways to switch gears quickly, the benefits of heel-toe braking etc, and someone was saying that you should drive an automatic, and always use the same foot for the brake and accelerator, asking them how much racing they've done would be highly pertinent, as such comments show that there is a lack of experience. Questioning the background of participants is a perfectly valid aspect of debate. If you can't handle it, perhaps you need to look at what debate is really about.



rickster said:


> If I PM by background, this will have you satisfied, but it should not come to this



And it wouldn't, if you had anything substantial that supported the comments you made.


----------



## mograph

rickster said:


> First off, why will I continue to post about something I have not gained experienced or knowledge of?



Well, this _is_ the internet.


----------



## rickster

mograph said:


> Well, this _is_ the internet.



Yep.And this_ is _a froum


----------



## rickster

Chris Parker said:


> "Dumbfounded" question? I don't think you quite get what that word means...


Sure do.

Sometimes others do not and take it out of context only referencing the first "word-part"


----------



## Sanke

rickster said:


> Sure do.
> 
> Sometimes others do not and take it out of context only referencing the first "word-part"



Actually, it still doesn't make sense. By my understanding, one can be dumbfounded by a question, but the question itself cannot be.

Also I'd like to second Chris's questions about your background, because what you're saying doesn't seem to ad up for me. Have you had some negative experience with hand/other body conditioning, and what were the circumstances? 
Myself, I've gone through  conditioning programs serval times, once for hands others the whole body, and so far it's had quite positive results. I'd be curious to hear your experiences with this. 


Sanke on the move.


----------



## Highlander

Be sure that the wall bag has plenty of give, make it where its not on the wall dircty, as this can cause the impact of the punch to come back to you're heart. Only punch two or three days of the week as well


----------



## Chris Parker

rickster said:


> Yep.And this_ is _a froum



"Froum"? 



rickster said:


> Sure do.
> 
> Sometimes others do not and take it out of context only referencing the first "word-part"



Uh, you may want to try again there. To "dumbfound" is to perplex, or confound, the term very much meaning "a source (founding) of being struck dumb (mute)"... so a "dumbfounded question" is just plain odd. A question that is confounded? A question that is struck dumb? A question that is perplexed? Uh... nope. As you then continue with your answer (missing what was being asked in the first place, and why it was being asked), it was perhaps a dumbfounding question... your answers certain manage to dumbfound at times as well... but no, "dumbfounded question" is just wrong. 

Oh, but did you want to address, I don't know, anything else that you've been asked?


----------



## Xue Sheng

Iron Palm



> Iron Palm is a broad term covering many different conditioning methods. Some Iron Palm systems are considered internal and others are purely external in training methods. Martial artists who practice Iron Palm training are not unified in their training and techniques. Some teachers treat their Iron Palm methodology as a valuable secret, and only share their specific techniques, training methods, and herbal remedies with a select few.
> 
> Iron Palm is not a martial arts style unto itself, but a type of conditioning featured in many schools of Chinese martial arts. Some non-Chinese martial arts styles, such as Muay Thai and many schools of Karate, also feature hand conditioning; however, the term "Iron Palm" is not normally used to describe these types of training.



From Kung Fu Magazine Forum

WING LAM KUNG FU FEDERATION - Chinese Iron Palm - Part One


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## Master Dan

With all due respect to the young we are in a civilized society now and we have options of effecting striking and other combative defenses with out the long term effects of abusing ones various areas of the body that will take its toll in time. reasonable training so that you have balance and control of your body and that of your oponent should be a journey of health and building up ones overall ability and longevity something that is greatly ignored in the warrior gloring seeking ego of the hormonal young.

I listenened to young men bragging about Kazuki fighting we had here over a decade ago no pads full contact and it was said it was enough to survive the match not win and Pain is your friend completely missing the use of Pain as an instruction tool in learning both the effect on your self and implied intent to another as in manipulation one must share that in a controled way to actually become proficient and grow in knowledge with the master sharing in the pain to know if it is being applied properly and the student trusting the master not to be a sadist just enjoying abusing the student. 

I laugh at past thier prime women bragging about kicking the crap out of each other at some of our national seminars in thier youth training and now over weight becasue they are too crippled to do cardio enough to push thier posterior ends away from the table becasue they have a multitude of injuries from that abuse. A person should be able to defend themselves if they loose the use of one hand then one foot to utilize all portions of the body and what ever is laying around if needed but better yet not be there in the first place.

Mas used to puch trees to kill them by removing all the bark then move on to the next he had tremendous power but at what cost and many who followed in this concept had extreme problems with thier hands in later years. Longevity being able to do anything you want when you are 70-90 with your family should be your goal of training and conditioning I only need on finger to kill so does any 7 year old whats to brag about that I have yet to see anyone atacked by  boards or bricks in an alley yet but given the use of bath salts that may be changing?


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## rickster

Two facts;

There are consequences in conditioning

Many do not really need to do this


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## mograph

Sounds good to me. 

So we're done? There must be plenty of threads on hand conditioning out there.


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## Xue Sheng




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## elder999

rickster said:


> Two facts;
> 
> There are consequences in *improperly* conditioning
> 
> Many do not really need to do this



Fixed that for ya.


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## Sanke

Master Dan said:


> With all due respect to the young we are in a civilized society now and we have options of effecting striking and other combative defenses with out the long term effects of abusing ones various areas of the body that will take its toll in time. reasonable training so that you have balance and control of your body and that of your oponent should be a journey of health and building up ones overall ability and longevity something that is greatly ignored in the warrior gloring seeking ego of the hormonal young.I listenened to young men bragging about Kazuki fighting we had here over a decade ago no pads full contact and it was said it was enough to survive the match not win and Pain is your friend completely missing the use of Pain as an instruction tool in learning both the effect on your self and implied intent to another as in manipulation one must share that in a controled way to actually become proficient and grow in knowledge with the master sharing in the pain to know if it is being applied properly and the student trusting the master not to be a sadist just enjoying abusing the student. I laugh at past thier prime women bragging about kicking the crap out of each other at some of our national seminars in thier youth training and now over weight becasue they are too crippled to do cardio enough to push thier posterior ends away from the table becasue they have a multitude of injuries from that abuse. A person should be able to defend themselves if they loose the use of one hand then one foot to utilize all portions of the body and what ever is laying around if needed but better yet not be there in the first place.Mas used to puch trees to kill them by removing all the bark then move on to the next he had tremendous power but at what cost and many who followed in this concept had extreme problems with thier hands in later years. Longevity being able to do anything you want when you are 70-90 with your family should be your goal of training and conditioning I only need on finger to kill so does any 7 year old whats to brag about that I have yet to see anyone atacked by  boards or bricks in an alley yet but given the use of bath salts that may be changing?


You seem to be talking about the extremes of 'conditioning'. I'm not talking about not wearing any protective gear and beating the daylights out of each other to become tough, or bashing planks of wood across someone's chest, I'm talking about striking a canvas bag filled with beans for 10-15 minutes and applying some ointment. And this isn't so I can break through a brick wall with a fist, or break someone's bones by striking, this is so that while I'm in training, my hands are more used to impact so I can keep training without doing a number on them. Improper conditioning will cause long-term damage, sure, as will recklessly putting your body under serious trauma.  Proper conditioning has it's place in MA, if that's what you need for your training. You don't have to do it, but it can help.


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## Dolev

clfsean said:


> Do both, with proper instruction.


Should i go see an instructor to do knuckle push up, My usual pushup form is good, so why would i need an instructor?


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## Sanke

Dolev said:


> Should i go see an instructor to do knuckle push up, My usual pushup form is good, so why would i need an instructor?



Because you might be doing it wrong. :uhyeah: 
Not saying that you specifically are, but the reality is that these exercises (specifically hand conditioning) can do damage if done improperly, so it's always a good idea to talk to an instructor and get the proper method. 

And for the record, I do go to my instructor asking for proper ways to do pushups, just in case 


Sanke on the move.


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## Chris Parker

rickster said:


> Two facts;
> 
> There are consequences in conditioning
> 
> Many do not really need to do this



Uh.... no, that's a vague truism that has almost no real applicability and an opinion. No facts present at all.



Dolev said:


> Should i go see an instructor to do knuckle push up, My usual pushup form is good, so why would i need an instructor?



Because knuckle pushups have a different position than normal ones, due to increased stress on the wrists. You need to be shown how to line your forearms and wrists up properly in order to not damage yourself. 

In simple terms, you need an instructor who knows what they're doing to teach you.


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## Xue Sheng

hand conditioning side effects


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## clfsean

Dolev said:


> Should i go see an instructor to do knuckle push up, My usual pushup form is good, so why would i need an instructor?



In a word... Yes.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD. Please excuse typos & brevity of posts.


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## mograph

Chris Parker said:


> Because knuckle pushups have a different position than normal ones, due to increased stress on the wrists. You need to be shown how to line your forearms and wrists up properly in order to not damage yourself.


Ah, I think I see. The fists need to be placed farther down the body to maintain alignment, no?


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## Sanke

mograph said:


> Ah, I think I see. The fists need to be placed farther down the body to maintain alignment, no?



I think you may have missed the point... You know we're not actually talking about how to do knuckle pushups, right?


Sanke on the move.


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## mograph

Well, I figured it wasn't that far off the topic of hand conditioning, and we _were_ talking about it for three posts before. But if you're referring to the previous few pages, no, you're right, we weren't talking about knuckle pushups -- but we weren't really talking about hand conditioning, were we? 

So, I'll drop the knuckle pushups and wait for some useful information on hand conditioning. Although "seek expert advice and train properly" might be the best advice one can get in a forum.


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## rickster

mograph said:


> Well, I figured it wasn't that far off the topic of hand conditioning, and we _were_ talking about it for three posts before. But if you're referring to the previous few pages, no, you're right, we weren't talking about knuckle pushups -- but we weren't really talking about hand conditioning, were we?
> 
> So, I'll drop the knuckle pushups and wait for some useful information on hand conditioning. Although "seek expert advice and train properly" might be the best advice one can get in a forum.



"seek expert advice and train properly".....there are many who claim to teach expert and train improperly


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## Xue Sheng

rickster said:


> "seek expert advice and train properly".....there are many who claim to teach expert and train improperly



Then study, do the foot work, find out what it is and what it is supposed to be and ask a lot of questions before you train.

And to be completely honest your above post could be applied to just about anything that people want to train or learn... it is a rather generic comment actually


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## mograph

Anybody want to guess why this thread feels like practicing Bagua?


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## clfsean

mograph said:


> Anybody want to guess why this thread feels like practicing Bagua?



Eh... not so much bagua, but at this point, there are definitely those on here making me feel like... :deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse


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## Xue Sheng




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## rickster

Xue Sheng said:


> Then study, do the foot work, find out what it is and what it is supposed to be and ask a lot of questions before you train.
> 
> And to be completely honest your above post could be applied to just about anything that people want to train or learn... it is a rather generic comment actually



The problem is that the beiginner cannot make a distinction if they are training properly from a improper instructor...sometimes until it maybe too late


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## Xue Sheng

rickster said:


> The problem is that the beiginner cannot make a distinction if they are training properly from a improper instructor...sometimes until it maybe too late



Not wanting to carry this thread on to much longer because I tend to be in agreement with clfsean here

So then I can conclude by your posts that your solution is to not do anything at all. Am I correct on this? Because if it is since there are a lot of improper instructor out there in the world of MA that do not kow what they're doing and they can and do hurt people with everything from form, application, and stretching so I am guessing then, based on your posts, that we should all just go home, put on our protective gear and sit in the recliner and do nothing else.

Since iron palm training tends to be something that is done as part of a martial art I am going under the assumption that a beginner is not out looking for an Iron palm class. I am also working under the assumption that a beginner can read, walk, and find out what it is supposed to be by study, as well as have an interest to look into in any art they train and not follow blindly. I am also assuming they can tell when things just don't feel right and that they are capable of independent thought as well.


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## mograph

mograph said:


> Anybody want to guess why this thread feels like practicing Bagua?


Xuesheng gets it.


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## rickster

Xue Sheng said:


> Not wanting to carry this thread on to much longer because I tend to be in agreement with clfsean here
> 
> So then I can conclude by your posts that your solution is to not do anything at all. Am I correct on this? Because if it is since there are a lot of improper instructor out there in the world of MA that do not kow what they're doing and they can and do hurt people with everything from form, application, and stretching so I am guessing then, based on your posts, that we should all just go home, put on our protective gear and sit in the recliner and do nothing else.
> 
> .



Your conclusion is incorrect


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## Xue Sheng

rickster said:


> Your conclusion is incorrect



Well based on your posts it is the conclusion I came to and based on your very short posts that explain little and only leave more questions all I have to say is...

Well, Goodbye. And don't think it hasn't been a little slice of heaven, because it hasn't


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## rickster

Xue Sheng said:


> Well based on your posts it is the conclusion I came to and based on your very short posts that explain little and only leave more questions all I have to say is...



No where in any of my posts have I ever stated; "people should not condition"


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## Xue Sheng




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## rickster

Xue Sheng said:


>



Illustrates how many are misled in their training


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## DennisBreene

My Grand Master and his son both trained for iron hand. As a young student Mr. Roberts would not allow me to practice on the makiwara (I was going to be a doctor and he was protecting my hands). Now many years later and retired, I am training in Iron Hand and Grand Master Roberts swears by Dit Da Jow and I have started using it.The training is working but as a physician I am curious about all of the various claims. It would be interesting to see a study that follows the progression of x-rays and mobiity.  I'd also love to see comparisons of use of Iron Hand liniments against some sort of placebo. Has anyone heard of such studies?
Thanks
Dennis


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## mograph

I tried Googling "longitudinal" and "iron palm" (and fist, and hand) -- no luck. Haven't tried PubMed yet.


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## rickster

DennisBreene said:


> My Grand Master and his son both trained for iron hand. As a young student Mr. Roberts would not allow me to practice on the makiwara (I was going to be a doctor and he was protecting my hands). Now many years later and retired, I am training in Iron Hand and Grand Master Roberts swears by Dit Da Jow and I have started using it.The training is working but as a physician I am curious about all of the various claims. It would be interesting to see a study that follows the progression of x-rays and mobiity.  I'd also love to see comparisons of use of Iron Hand liniments against some sort of placebo. Has anyone heard of such studies?
> Thanks
> Dennis



Studies of liniments and placebo maybe harder to find. The medical field is still playing catch up with such studies upon the sbject of Qi

That said, a few points;

Why, if one is not training to fight, subject themselves to this type of conditioning

If one has a improper teacher, they will train improper, thus having future detremental effects

It can be a task to find proper instruction


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## hechavez

I used to be a boxer, I always wrapped my hands and wrists with tape before putting on the gloves.  I was a Filipino martial artist which strengthened my hands and wrists.  I take Tai Chi Chuan Yang and Choy Li Fut Kung Fu.  From our Kung Fu, we do a lot a different punches on punching hand pads.  My four top knuckles of both hands get red after our drilling at the school.  At home, I put dit da jao Chinese ointment on my knuckles and in a few minutes my red knuckles turn to dark brown knuckles.  Dit da jao is also good for scabs which I used on my fingers,  dit da jao makes the scab smaller and smaller as the days go by so in about a week or less the scab is gone.  Dit da jao ointment is a careful mixture of ingredients that makes a dark brown ointment (the darker the better).  It is placed under ground for a year to achieve full potency.  It really works.  I put it on cuts after traditional treatment (cleaning and antiseptic).  That works too.  By the way I am a purple sash in Choy Li Fut Kung Fu and a blue sash in Tai Chi Chuan Yang.  Ethnically I am a mix of Visayan, Amoy Chinese, Apache, and Cherokee, Tamil, Ita, and Basco (in that order)


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## rickster

hechavez said:


> I used to be a boxer, I always wrapped my hands and wrists with tape before putting on the gloves.  I was a Filipino martial artist which strengthened my hands and wrists.  I take Tai Chi Chuan Yang and Choy Li Fut Kung Fu.  From our Kung Fu, we do a lot a different punches on punching hand pads.  My four top knuckles of both hands get red after our drilling at the school.  At home, I put dit da jao Chinese ointment on my knuckles and in a few minutes my red knuckles turn to dark brown knuckles.  Dit da jao is also good for scabs which I used on my fingers,  dit da jao makes the scab smaller and smaller as the days go by so in about a week or less the scab is gone.  Dit da jao ointment is a careful mixture of ingredients that makes a dark brown ointment (the darker the better).  It is placed under ground for a year to achieve full potency.  It really works.  I put it on cuts after traditional treatment (cleaning and antiseptic).  That works too.  By the way I am a purple sash in Choy Li Fut Kung Fu and a blue sash in Tai Chi Chuan Yang.  Ethnically I am a mix of Visayan, Amoy Chinese, Apache, and Cherokee, Tamil, Ita, and Basco (in that order)



Interesting


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## clfsean

hechavez said:


> I used to be a boxer, I always wrapped my hands and wrists with tape before putting on the gloves.  I was a Filipino martial artist which strengthened my hands and wrists.  I take Tai Chi Chuan Yang and Choy Li Fut Kung Fu.  From our Kung Fu, we do a lot a different punches on punching hand pads.  My four top knuckles of both hands get red after our drilling at the school.  At home, I put dit da jao Chinese ointment on my knuckles and in a few minutes my red knuckles turn to dark brown knuckles.  Dit da jao is also good for scabs which I used on my fingers,  dit da jao makes the scab smaller and smaller as the days go by so in about a week or less the scab is gone.  Dit da jao ointment is a careful mixture of ingredients that makes a dark brown ointment (the darker the better).  It is placed under ground for a year to achieve full potency.  It really works.  I put it on cuts after traditional treatment (cleaning and antiseptic).  That works too.  By the way I am a purple sash in Choy Li Fut Kung Fu and a blue sash in Tai Chi Chuan Yang.  Ethnically I am a mix of Visayan, Amoy Chinese, Apache, and Cherokee, Tamil, Ita, and Basco (in that order)




Jow on open wounds... not sure I'd be willing to go that way.


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## rickster

clfsean said:


> Jow on open wounds... not sure I'd be willing to go that way.



Well, I was trying to be polite and had a lost words by merely saying "interesting"


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## hechavez

I do drills chop choy (punching straigt),  doing jong choy (uppercut), sau choy (wide sweeping hooks), gwa choy (vertical downward swing with back of your fist), kup choy (vertical downward swing with front of your fist).  I have been doing these drills four days a week for over a year at a Choy Li Fut school.  I use dit da jao, a dark brown ointment which toughens the knuckles.  My knuckles would be red after training, then after using dit da jao, my knuckles would turn dark brown.  I also take a calcium pill every day, and also drink milk every day.  My hands, knuckles, feet, and forearms have survived over the year.  I have a purple sash in Choy Li Fut and a blue sash in Tai Chi Chuan Yang.  I hope some of this info helps.


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## DaleDugas

Unless you know exactly what is in your dit da jow.  Many people have no idea. the best advice would be to NEVER EVER use it on wounds where the herbs can get into your bloodstream and cause havoc.  Some jow formulations are toxic and use poisonous herbs.

Please stop telling people to do this.  It is bad Wu De as well as portraying you as an ignorant rube.


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## clfsean

DaleDugas said:


> Unless you know exactly what is in your dit da jow.  Many people have no idea. the best advice would be to NEVER EVER use it on wounds where the herbs can get into your bloodstream and cause havoc.  Some jow formulations are toxic and use poisonous herbs.
> 
> Please stop telling people to do this.  It is bad Wu De as well as portraying you as an ignorant rube.



Thanks Dale!

This is somebody who knows exactly what's up. I've purchased from him & have complete faith in what he's told me since it's EXACTLY what I've been told before in two different Chinatowns here in America, in China & by people who didn't know each other. 

Don't listen to me... I'm ok with that. Ignore Dale your own risk.


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## Chris Parker

And absolutely seconded from another part of the world as well. My former instructor was a TCM practitioner who made his own Jow as well, and the most basic rule is that if there is any break in the skin, don't use the stuff! He never told me exactly what was in it, but the hints were enough for me to stop asking a few questions....


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