# About belts and time to obtain a BB



## Manny (Jun 15, 2012)

My way of thinking is that if I would have a dojang I would belt sistem I will use for my students would be: white, yellow,green,blue and red, the minimum time to obtain the next belt will be one full year, this means to obtain a Black Belt the student must have a minimum of 5 years as a colored belt.

Wolud a child below 18 years achieve black belt status?? Yes but not a black belt to wear on his/her waist, I will use the poom blet (red/black).

I think I will not acept children below 10 years.

Manny


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## andyjeffries (Jun 15, 2012)

Manny said:


> I think I will not acept children below 10 years.



That's a personal choice, but I feel differently.  I teach children from 6+ regular Taekwondo classes and children from 3+ a modified/watered down "Kicking Kids" type class (I don't give Taekwondo kup rank here, just Kicking Kids stripes).  

I don't expect the same from a 6 year old as I get from a 12 year old (and likewise further down the age scale). However, I wouldn't not teach them and deny them the benefits that martial arts practice gives.  For example, I have young children students that apparently won't sit still longer than a few seconds at home, but they'll happily wait a minute while I explain how to do something.

When I was younger/lower ranked I didn't want to teach children as young as I do now.  However, my feelings changed from "they can't properly execute the techniques an older-child/adult can so they shouldn't practice yet" to "they can still get some benefit, which is great, if I just give them a break because of their age".

Of course if you don't want to teach young children because you just don't like dealing with the rowdiness/youthfulness of them - that's completely your call.  I didn't know if it was because it was a moral "children below 10 shouldn't learn martial arts' thing.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 15, 2012)

A year from white to yellow? Seriously, Manny?

Techniques become more complicated and expections become (rightly) higher as rank progresses. As such, I think a year between high-geup ranks is reasonable. But white to yellow... seems excessive.


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## Gentle Fist (Jun 15, 2012)

$500 between each rank %-}


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jun 15, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> A year from white to yellow? Seriously, Manny?
> 
> Techniques become more complicated and expections become (rightly) higher as rank progresses. As such, I think a year between high-geup ranks is reasonable. But white to yellow... seems excessive.


I suppose it all depends on what you think a yellow belt is / should be.  The issue I would foresee is that people would quit after half a year of not progressing on paper.


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## Haakon (Jun 15, 2012)

If someone expected me to do Chon Ji or Taeguk Il Jang for a year I'd quit and find somewhere else to train too. TKD patterns, especially the early ones, and other white belt curriculum simply don't take that kind of time to learn and learn well. A year between red and 1st dan I could see but not the lower ranks.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 15, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I suppose it all depends on what you think a yellow belt is / should be.  The issue I would foresee is that people would quit after half a year of not progressing on paper.



Since Manny is talking about TKD, and since he teaches KKW TKD, the definition of yellow belt is pretty clearly defined.

My point, which apparently wasn't clear enough, was that belt advancement is not equal. The step from 9th geup to 8th is not as difficult to attain as 1st geup to 1st Dan. That is entirely reasonable, since the (clearly defined) forms/skills/techniques needed to earn 8th geup are both fewer and simpler than those needed to earn 1st Dan.


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## Markku P (Jun 16, 2012)

Manny said:


> My way of thinking is that if I would have a dojang I would belt sistem I will use for my students would be: white, yellow,green,blue and red, the minimum time to obtain the next belt will be one full year, this means to obtain a Black Belt the student must have a minimum of 5 years as a colored belt.
> 
> Wolud a child below 18 years achieve black belt status?? Yes but not a black belt to wear on his/her waist, I will use the poom blet (red/black).
> 
> ...



I think you wouldn't have many students if you follow that system. In my experience time frame between belts should be 2-6 months and if you are active then you can get your black belt in 3-4 years. It doesn't matter if you are child or adult, Kukkiwon has "poom-grades" so course I use those guidelines. I personally think we are too much value for the 1st dan. 

Perhaps we should focus more to get students who will be 4-5 Dan black belts in the future.

/Markku


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## Markku P (Jun 16, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> That's a personal choice, but I feel differently.  I teach children from 6+ regular Taekwondo classes and children from 3+ a modified/watered down "Kicking Kids" type class (I don't give Taekwondo kup rank here, just Kicking Kids stripes).
> 
> I don't expect the same from a 6 year old as I get from a 12 year old (and likewise further down the age scale). However, I wouldn't not teach them and deny them the benefits that martial arts practice gives.  For example, I have young children students that apparently won't sit still longer than a few seconds at home, but they'll happily wait a minute while I explain how to do something.
> 
> ...



I pretty much agree with this  and I think you should teach children, specially 4-6 years, then you will lean use virtues like patience,  humor and common sense 
With kids you can't fake it because they will see it quite fast..

/Markku P.


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## Gorilla (Jun 16, 2012)

My daughter took 18 months to reach BB. She trained during that period 3 to 4 hors per day 6 days per week.  She got her Black Belt @ 13.  She made the AAU JR National Team within 3 years of training.  She is currently on that Team as a Sr Fly weight. She has made that team 3 of the last 4 years.She has been training for 7 years now and is a Second Dan.  She is Testing for Third Dan in October.  She teaches classes and does private lessons.She also acheivedA BB IN Skotokan Karate during that period.Manny under your system you would of held her back.  We have been lucky that we have been able to train with masters who have recognized her ability and helped her progress at an appropriate rate.What if someone like ATC's kids our Terry's kids walked in your Dojang.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 17, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I suppose it all depends on what you think a yellow belt is / should be.  The issue I would foresee is that people would quit after half a year of not progressing on paper.



People go at least a year in BJJ without progressing on paper and yet that art continues to grow. I personally havent found people to care too much about time in grade, in fact I find most people are more concerned by lesser times in grade as seeming a bit "dodgy". I personally think 5 years is about right for a black belt if I were running a school,but Id be more inclined to have 10 coloured belts grading every 6 months for 5 years in total to 1st dan. I wouldnt take kids under 10 years old either, despite the fact my son is a 7 year old 3rd gup and my 10 year old daughter is a first gup, but I dont make the rules where I train .


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## terryl965 (Jun 17, 2012)

All I can say is it is up to each person to run there school the way they feel it should,(except for KKW TKD) most can learn the cuuriculum within two - three years for BB. Some faster some slower, also it is about your growth from 1st Dan (poom) we lose so many because un qualified instructor at the master level and above, they feel they do not need to improve just get stripes. Manny do as you see fit but if those guidelines of yours is real it is going to be a slow and small school for you.


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## Gorilla (Jun 17, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> All I can say is it is up to each person to run there school the way they feel it should,(except for KKW TKD) most can learn the cuuriculum within two - three years for BB. Some faster some slower, also it is about your growth from 1st Dan (poom) we lose so many because un qualified instructor at the master level and above, they feel they do not need to improve just get stripes. Manny do as you see fit but if those guidelines of yours is real it is going to be a slow and small school for you.




I agree with you...but each instructor must  be flexible in order to insure that the dedicated talented student is challenged!!!

Too many blanket statements are made about rank that would seem to lack flexibility when needed!

Rank should be earned and some are able to do it faster and at a younger age!


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 17, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> All I can say is it is up to each person to run there school the way they feel it should,*(except for KKW TKD)* most can learn the cuuriculum within two - three years for BB. Some faster some slower, also it is about your growth from 1st Dan (poom) we lose so many because un qualified instructor at the master level and above, they feel they do not need to improve just get stripes. Manny do as you see fit but if those guidelines of yours is real it is going to be a slow and small school for you.



Terry, I don't think I'm following you here very well. Are you saying 1) "It is up to each person to run their school the way they feel it should be, except for KKW TKD"? or are you saying 2) "except for KKW TKD most [peope] can learn the curriculum within two or three years"?

If it is #1 above, why would it be any different for KKW folks? There has been numerous posts here saying the KKW doesn't enforce any sort of standard (although it apparently has one), nor is there any way for it to do so.

If it is #2 above what is the time frame you see for people to learn the KKW curriculum (up to 1st dan)? Are you going with the one year time frame from Korea?

Pax,

Chris


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## bluewaveschool (Jun 17, 2012)

I held a kid at white belt recently for 6 months.  He was barely ready at that point.  He's also been booted to the side line before, I've had the entire class except for him do push ups for him acting up.  It's never big outbursts, it's the can't stay still in ready stance syndrome, and the 'excuse for every time i correct him' syndrome.  He's been better recently.  I could kick him out, but he needs the discipline.  Generally it's 3-4 months, but some of my students are taking longer here recently because they aren't training out of class like they should.  I tell them that if they only train in the 2 hours a week I have them, they'll move very slow.  It's as much up to the student how fast they'll move up as it is to me.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 17, 2012)

bluewaveschool said:


> I held a kid at white belt recently for 6 months.  He was barely ready at that point.  He's also been booted to the side line before, I've had the entire class except for him do push ups for him acting up.  It's never big outbursts, it's the can't stay still in ready stance syndrome, and the 'excuse for every time i correct him' syndrome.  He's been better recently.  I could kick him out, but he needs the discipline.  Generally it's 3-4 months, but some of my students are taking longer here recently because they aren't training out of class like they should.  I tell them that if they only train in the 2 hours a week I have them, they'll move very slow.  It's as much up to the student how fast they'll move up as it is to me.



We call that "WalMart Taekwondo" and encourage them to save their receipt because it probably won't work...


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 17, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> All I can say is it is up to each person to run there school the way they feel it should,(except for KKW TKD) most can learn the cuuriculum within two - three years for BB. Some faster some slower, also it is about your growth from 1st Dan (poom) we lose so many because un qualified instructor at the master level and above, they feel they do not need to improve just get stripes. Manny do as you see fit but if those guidelines of yours is real it is going to be a slow and small school for you.


Ive never understood the theory that if it takes longer to get to black belt the school will be smaller or less successful. Maybe its different over here, but I know many karate and tkd schools with long times in grade who are a raging success. I see no reason why Manny couldnt run a school with his guidelines and have many, many students. Maybe its just a regional thing.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jun 17, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Since Manny is talking about TKD, and since he teaches KKW TKD, the definition of yellow belt is pretty clearly defined.



Is it?  I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I have never seen a "standard" colour belt system with requirements from the KKW.  In my case, my first school required taegeuks 1 & 2 to obtain a yellow belt, whilst the next school required a "basic" pattern (taegeuk1 is taught at the yellow belt level).


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## bluewaveschool (Jun 17, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> We call that "WalMart Taekwondo" and encourage them to save their receipt because it probably won't work...



If they paid, that might be a concern.  But since it's free, whatever.  I'll let them take however long it takes.  They'll either shape up one day, or quit.


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## Metal (Jun 18, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Is it?  I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I have never seen a "standard" colour belt system with requirements from the KKW.  In my case, my first school required taegeuks 1 & 2 to obtain a yellow belt, whilst the next school required a "basic" pattern (taegeuk1 is taught at the yellow belt level).



Exactly. For Kukkiwon it's important that you meet their standards once you attending your first black belt test.

In the official WTF-affiliated organisation in Germany, Switzerland and Austria things are handled the following ways:

Germany: 10 Kups, 10th white, 8th yellow, 6th green, 4th blue, 2nd red (or brown)  and belts with stripes for the uneven Kup numbers.

Austria: 10 Kups as well, but their 10th Kup is Yellow and their white belt is an additional Beginner level which is not part of their Kup-system.

The Swiss system is more similar to what some Korean Grandmasters are using. 8 Kups and 3 belt colors, Yellow for 8th and 7th, Blue for 6th to 3rd and Red for 2nd and 1st Kup.

Oh, France actually has additonal children Kup-ranks, so it's 15 Kups for children and 10 Kups for adults.



Getting further and obtaining a new belt can be very motivating for kids. 

Between testings their shouldn't just be a wait time though, but also a minimum of training units. In Germany it's handed like this:

10th to 9th kup 3 months / 48 training units (45 min. each)
9th to 8th kup 3 months / 48 tu
8th to 7th kup 3 months / 48 tu
7th to 6th kup 3 months / 48 tu
6th to 5th kup 3 months / 48 tu
5th to 4th kup 4 months / 64 tu
4th to 3rd kup 4 months / 64 tu
3rd to 2nd kup 4 months / 64 tu
2nd to 1st kup 6 months / 96 tu
1st kup to 1st dan 1 year


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 18, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Is it? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I have never seen a "standard" colour belt system with requirements from the KKW. In my case, my first school required taegeuks 1 & 2 to obtain a yellow belt, whilst the next school required a "basic" pattern (taegeuk1 is taught at the yellow belt level).



You are correct. The KKW actually only defines standard requirements for Dan ranks. 
However, given that 1st Dan requires the 8 taegeuk poomsae, then it's pretty easy to divide them up amoung 10 geup ranks (or 5 belts, in the system Manny proposes). And it's still pretty difficult to imagine needing a year to learn the most basic material.


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## Gorilla (Jun 18, 2012)

Everyone has the right to run a school as they see fit.  I believe drawn in stone standards don't help anyone.  People develop at different rates. Promote based on skill and hard work.  Give your students true honest feedback.  Some need to take 5 years others less.  It should be based on merit.


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## terryl965 (Jun 18, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Ive never understood the theory that if it takes longer to get to black belt the school will be smaller or less successful. Maybe its different over here, but I know many karate and tkd schools with long times in grade who are a raging success. I see no reason why Manny couldnt run a school with his guidelines and have many, many students. Maybe its just a regional thing.



Sir with all do respect if Manny is teaching KKW than the longest anybody should take is three years to Black belt, majority of schools is withen two years anything longer than that they will leave for the next school. I define my school as two parts sport/Tradition. The sport side is a two year program and the focus is mainly competition sparring, the traditional class I have no set timeframe for Black belt get there when you get there but with tradition comes one/two and three step sparring, self defense, poomsae development and refinment, and last but certainly not least by any means the history and future of TKD. I hope that helps you from my perspective of what I was saying.


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 18, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> Sir with all do respect if Manny is teaching KKW than the longest anybody should take is three years to Black belt,... >snip<



Why is this, Terry? Is this the KKW standard that they have written down somewhere?

Also, could you check the other post I had that asked you a couple of questions? Thanks.

Pax,

Chris


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## Markku P (Jun 18, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> I define my school as two parts sport/Tradition. The sport side is a two year program and the focus is mainly competition sparring, the traditional class I have no set timeframe for Black belt get there when you get there but with tradition comes one/two and three step sparring, self defense, poomsae development and refinment, and last but certainly not least by any means the history and future of TKD. I hope that helps you from my perspective of what I was saying.



Just curious, How do work with the sport side? Do they still have to show poomsae etc in the belt test?

/Markku P.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jun 18, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> Sir with all do respect if Manny is teaching KKW than the longest anybody should take is three years to Black belt, majority of schools is withen two years anything longer than that they will leave for the next school...



I agree that if it is KKW TKD, then there is a standard for BB.  If most schools give the BB at 3 years, then that is how good most people are.  With that said, I'd much rather see BB be based on ability than time, and from what I see, 90% of schools are time based.  I see the poorest BB's at testing being worse than then best green belts, which doesn't make sense to me.  And personally, it doesn't make me want to test if it doesn't represent my abilities.


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 18, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I agree that if it is KKW TKD, then there is a standard for BB.



 What standard is that, besides knowing the 8 Taeguk poomse? From your statement below, should I take it to mean the standard is time-based?



> If most schools give the BB at 3 years, then that is how good most people are.


 
Is this the KKW standard you mentioned above? If it is it seems to be based not on what the KKW has said but rather on what instructors decide. As such it would be subect to change based on what those same instructors do. If the majority of people decide to change the time it takes to promote students to BB then the standard would change. And if Many decides to take 5 years to promote people in his hypothetical school that could go towards changing the standard.

Also, if you're going to go with what most people do, don't forget the 1 year black belts that Korea specializes in. Why not use _that_ as the standard? Video was posted here not long ago of testing in Korea at the KKW, if I recall correctly. Shouldn't that be used as KKW standard for prmotion to dan or poom?



> With that said, I'd much rather see BB be based on ability than time, and from what I see, 90% of schools are time based. I see the poorest BB's at testing being worse than then best green belts, which doesn't make sense to me. And personally, it doesn't make me want to test if it doesn't represent my abilities.



Speaking personally, most schools I have seen base testing for BB on a combination of time and ability. You have to meet a minimum of training time (not just time in grade) and be able to perform the stuff you already know adequately. That second part is subjective depending on the school/instructor but if you've trained under.

I have seen schools that promote based almost entirely on time in grade. It's usually not pretty.

Pax,

Chris


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## terryl965 (Jun 18, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> Why is this, Terry? Is this the KKW standard that they have written down somewhere?
> 
> Also, could you check the other post I had that asked you a couple of questions? Thanks.
> 
> ...



Sir if you go by the encyclepidia of Tae Kwon Do written in the seventies they have everything laid out poomsae, one step and self defense. Sure it is basic but that is there requirements. Everything else is added on by each school owner.


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## terryl965 (Jun 18, 2012)

Markku P said:


> Just curious, How do work with the sport side? Do they still have to show poomsae etc in the belt test?
> 
> /Markku P.



Yes they do poomsae but not any self defense or one step and the poomsae are basically memorizing the movements


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 18, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> Yes they do poomsae but not any self defense or one step and the poomsae are basically memorizing the movements



Do they still get a black belt Terry? If Im understanding correctly they just do sparring and poomsae, but no self defence or timber breaking etc. Im not knocking the concept, just trying to get my head around it. I always assumed students did all the curriculum until they reach 1st dan and then they branch out and specialise in sparring/sport. Does the kukkiwon allow someone to get a first dan without any experience in self defence etc


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 18, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> Sir if you go by the encyclepidia of Tae Kwon Do written in the seventies they have everything laid out poomsae, one step and self defense. Sure it is basic but that is there requirements. Everything else is added on by each school owner.



But these are just things that people need to know to be promoted to 1st dan, correct? (And are these thigns tested on in Korea in general or at the KKW in particular? A friend of mine tested not so long ago for 5th dan in Korea and he didn't mention anything about step sparring or self-defense when we discussed his tests, some of which were at the KKW.) It doesn't take into account the level of proficiency, I assume. By saying no one should take longer than X amount of years to reach BB we're moving away from material covered into the area of proficiency of technique. Granted a one year BB isn't going to have the same mastery of technique as a 5 year BB does but I see no reason why people shouldn't be allowed to hold their students to the standards of proficiency they choose.

Pax,

Chris


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 18, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> But these are just things that people need to know to be promoted to 1st dan, correct? (And are these thigns tested on in Korea in general or at the KKW in particular? A friend of mine tested not so long ago for 5th dan in Korea and he didn't mention anything about step sparring or self-defense when we discussed his tests, some of which were at the KKW.) It doesn't take into account the level of proficiency, I assume. By saying no one should take longer than X amount of years to reach BB we're moving away from material covered into the area of proficiency of technique. Granted a one year BB isn't going to have the same mastery of technique as a 5 year BB does but I see no reason why people shouldn't be allowed to hold their students to the standards of proficiency they choose.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


Its all relative and comes down to what a club "expects" from a black belt. As Ive said before, I know a kukkiwon black belt who is an absolute gun, and his club expected a hell of a lot before he could grade for 1st dan (I think it took him over four years of solid training), but then I know other clubs wher the only requirements are merely showing up for 18 months and they'll throw you a black belt. If there is no 'official' time in grade set by the kkw to get to 1st dan then I commend the clubs that set high standards and dont just use the excuse "oh, but the club up the road gives out black belts in 2 years", if its not a set standard then who cares what the club up the road does. I think it does far more damage to a club's reputation having guys running around in black belts who are ordinary at best than setting high standards and adhering to them. I have never heard of a student leaving a club because it took too long to get a black belt, in fact the most successful clubs in my area (not just tkd, but all martial arts) take ages to get a black belt. They should have all gone broke years ago based on the theory that it takes too long to get promoted. I remember phoning around looking for a club when I started tkd. There was one club that said I could get a black belt in 2 years and I actually crossed them off the list based on that fact alone, so it can also be a deterent. Again, I think it must be a regional thing.


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## terryl965 (Jun 18, 2012)

Chris, Ralph I am actually tired and got up to take a sleeping pill. Believe me tomorrow I will answer all your question and trust me a club/school can do as they please the KKW does not care one bit about proper techs ir what you teach. I know when I was at the instructor course years ago they did but from what I have been told they have really slacked off on requirement basically poomsae and kicking ans some sparring. I run my school my way for the sport it is about the sport fr tradition I teach ewhat my instructors tought me plus  some add ons.


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## terryl965 (Jun 18, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Do they still get a black belt Terry? If Im understanding correctly they just do sparring and poomsae, but no self defence or timber breaking etc. Im not knocking the concept, just trying to get my head around it. I always assumed students did all the curriculum until they reach 1st dan and then they branch out and specialise in sparring/sport. Does the kukkiwon allow someone to get a first dan without any experience in self defence etc



To answer this question YES they do, we have school here that only teach sport Olympic sparring and nothing else and they get KKW certificates because they are not held to any standerds what so ever, I have seen sport people get it withen six months if they can spar like a black belt. Hell Arlene Limas was a Karate person and was tought the rules of TKD sparring in less than a year if I remember correctly and she won a gold medal for the US back in 92 or 96 if memory serves ,e right


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## Markku P (Jun 19, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Does the kukkiwon allow someone to get a first dan without any experience in self defence etc



I think Kukkiwon is pretty clear about this. Minimum what you need is Poomsae, Sparring and Breaking. ( and breaking techniques what I have seen in Korea or any other country are pretty easy )

/Markku P.


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## terryl965 (Jun 19, 2012)

Chris, Ralph and Markku - I am looking at the Kukkiwon TaeKwonDo textbook page 83 section D: *Curriculum of Training
*
The curriculum of training contains the contents and volume of an instruction subject to be trained within a given period of time, in which the training course is planned and organized so that the trainees may undergo the due course for the purpose of attaining the established objective. In other words, the curriculum is a plan of a series of training experiences provided for helping the growth and development of trainee's physical, emotional and mental realms. This curriculum consist of three phases, from planning to execution and to examination.

*1. Logical sequence of formatting the curriculum
*
The TKD curriculum must be established in a logical sequence, starting from the establishment of basic ideology, establishment of spwcific training objectives, organization and performance of training course to the final examination.

*2. Contents of TKD training

a. Theoretical system

*a. History of TKD
b .TKD spirit, principles, purpose,values,ideological basis
c. TKD instruction:instruction method, properties,education,training curriculum, practice,test,upkeep of facilities.
d. Scientific approach to TKD: physiology, dynamics,phychology, coaching science.
e. prevention of injury
f. Trainingof players: training principle, warming up and finishing up exorcises, physical strength training, technical training, training program, weight control.

*B. practical techniques training

*a Foundamentals of TKD ( TKD Poomsae : Kup-grade poomsae and Dan grade poomsae)
b. TKD Kyorugi (competition): patterned kyorugi, match kyorugi, free style kyorugi
c. TKD demonstrion
d. TKD games

There is actually no time to achieve your poom/Dan grade for 1st, they could acheive it within a year and rightfully do in alot of cases. Now on page 85 they list all the requirements for no grades - 8th to 4th kup - 3rd kup to probationary Dan.
On page 86 they list from 1st to 3rd Dan - 4th to 6th Dan -over 7th Dan and if you would like to know them I will post later this week when I have more time. I hope this helps some of you.


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## Manny (Jun 19, 2012)

Dirty Dog, maybe one full year of white to yellow blet sounds too much, but for me tgis could be a good maturity time, in this full year I will teach the basics and the 4 kichos (basic poomsae) before to enter the taeguks (taeguks would be studied before yello blet examination). In this full year I will polish all the tkd stuff in my students, you know that everithing becomes second nature afther thousands of repetitions.

Why rush the people from white to yellow? Maybe one or two partial test beetwen white and yellow belt would be fine.

Manny


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## Manny (Jun 19, 2012)

Markku P said:


> I think you wouldn't have many students if you follow that system. In my experience time frame between belts should be 2-6 months and if you are active then you can get your black belt in 3-4 years. It doesn't matter if you are child or adult, Kukkiwon has "poom-grades" so course I use those guidelines. I personally think we are too much value for the 1st dan.
> 
> Perhaps we should focus more to get students who will be 4-5 Dan black belts in the future.
> 
> /Markku



Two to six months to chanbe the colour of the belt for me is to short, that's why the McDojangs are plagued with a lot of pooms belts that really s......ks in their technikes.

Yes if I wanted a McDojo for sure I will purse a lot of belts examinations don't caring about the quality of my teachings and the quality of my students.

Manny


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## Manny (Jun 19, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> My daughter took 18 months to reach BB. She trained during that period 3 to 4 hors per day 6 days per week.  She got her Black Belt @ 13.  She made the AAU JR National Team within 3 years of training.  She is currently on that Team as a Sr Fly weight. She has made that team 3 of the last 4 years.She has been training for 7 years now and is a Second Dan.  She is Testing for Third Dan in October.  She teaches classes and does private lessons.She also acheivedA BB IN Skotokan Karate during that period.Manny under your system you would of held her back.  We have been lucky that we have been able to train with masters who have recognized her ability and helped her progress at an appropriate rate.What if someone like ATC's kids our Terry's kids walked in your Dojang.



Yous daughter can be very good to extraordinary practiciones of TKD and Karate and good for her, she deserves all what she  has acomplish, and yes there are very talented kids that can earn black belt in less that two year but they are very very few.

Glad your daughter is so good.

Manny


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## Manny (Jun 19, 2012)

I¡ve been in martial arts for many years, I know very good senseis/sifus/etc, I know several dojos/dojangs here in my city and would like to share with you: There is a very nice "McDojang" near the dojang of my master, This is a beautiful McDojang with lots of wealthy kids, the number of belts on the lader is maybe 9-12, the sambonim has a lot of black belts and lot's on poom belts, and yes he has very good people but the gross of his classes are little kids with horrible techs, some one like me that knows a little of TKD (old school) recognizes thta' a McDojo and tha's a very good business, however I don't like what I see there. In the other hand I have the JDK Central owned by exformer master this is a clasical TKD Dojank, the curricula is nice the master is one of the best old school masters one can have at hand in my city, he maybe has 1/4 of the students the McDojo has, the regular time to acheiev BB status at JDK is 3 to 4 years.

In the dojo I teach, we have very talented kids (no more than a handful), and then alot of good ones and then the rest, however I feel the time beetewn belts is too short, that's why if my two students ask me about the next test I told them to go esasy, if I feel they are not prepared (clases are two times per week) I ask them not to test and prepare better for the next one.

Yes maybe with these policy of 4-5 years to become a black belt I would not have a lot students, but that's not the most importante to me.

QUality is better than cuantity, for me.

Manny


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## Markku P (Jun 19, 2012)

Manny said:


> Two to six months to chanbe the colour of the belt for me is to short, that's why the McDojangs are plagued with a lot of pooms belts that really s......ks in their technikes.
> 
> Yes if I wanted a McDojo for sure I will purse a lot of belts examinations don't caring about the quality of my teachings and the quality of my students.
> 
> Manny



I have done this way last 12 years and I think technical level of my students is good. It's all how you teach of course, If a teacher don't know what he is doing, then it doesn't matter how much time students spend to get their belts. I don't think a school is Mcdojo if they give belts faster. I some cases perhaps a curriculum is well organised and teachers are well educated so they bring good results?  Perhaps we are thinking too much about color belts? I feel that I I don't care how good my students are at the beginning but when they reach black belt, then they should be good enough.

By the way, I have been teaching over 30 years in Finland, Sweden and USA. I have seen that there is many ways to get good results. Every instructor should find their own way..and that will come with trial and error 

Now Manny, you have to find a way what will work with YOU and with your students. You know your country, the culture and the people..

/Markku P.


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## Archtkd (Jun 19, 2012)

Markku P said:


> It's all how you teach of course, If a teacher don't know what he is doing, then it doesn't matter how much time students spend to get their belts. I don't think a school is Mcdojo if they give belts faster. I some cases perhaps a curriculum is well organised and teachers are well educated so they bring good results?  Perhaps we are thinking too much about color belts? I feel that I I don't care how good my students are at the beginning but when they reach black belt, then they should be good enough.
> 
> By the way, I have been teaching over 30 years in Finland, Sweden and USA. I have seen that there is many ways to get good results. Every instructor should find their own way..and that will come with trial and error
> 
> /MarkP.



Well said.


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## IcemanSK (Jun 19, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> To answer this question YES they do, we have school here that only teach sport Olympic sparring and nothing else and they get KKW certificates because they are not held to any standerds what so ever, I have seen sport people get it withen six months if they can spar like a black belt. Hell Arlene Limas was a Karate person and was tought the rules of TKD sparring in less than a year if I remember correctly and she won a gold medal for the US back in 92 or 96 if memory serves ,e right



To clarify what Terry was saying about Arlene Limas. She was a highly decorrated Kung Fu person who did very well on the open tournament circuit before her switch o Taekwondo. She won a gold medal in 1988 in Seoul. If I recall correctly, she won due in large part by throwing front leg kicks (mainly side kicks). At that time, front leg side kicks weren't often thrown in international TKD, but were quite familiar on the US open circuit.

Terry is correct in spirit, just not in details. Since Arlene is/was a fellow Chicagoan, I couldn't let that  go.


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 19, 2012)

Terry, thanks for the information from the KKW textbook on requirements for 1st dan. I do wonder, however, if they are still the same today. Even if they are since the KKW doesn't enforce its own policies then I wonder at the usefulness of having them. One of the strengths of the KKW from an organizational standpoint is that it pretty much accepts anyone, as long as someone of the proper rank signs off on their promotion, no questions asked. One of its weaknesses from a martial arts standpoint is that it pretty much accepts anyone, as long as someone of the proer rank signs off on their promotion, no questions asked.



terryl965 said:


> *There is actually no time to achieve your poom/Dan grade for 1st, they could acheive it within a year and rightfully do in alot of cases.* Now on page 85 they list all the requirements for no grades - 8th to 4th kup - 3rd kup to probationary Dan.
> On page 86 they list from 1st to 3rd Dan - 4th to 6th Dan -over 7th Dan and if you would like to know them I will post later this week when I have more time. I hope this helps some of you.



Regarding the bolded statement, again it moves from the objective (what material needs to be learned to qualify for promotion) to the subjective (what level of proficiency is necessary to "rightfully" qualify as a 1st dan?). In all honesty, I have not seen anyone who has earned a black belt in a year's time that "rightfully" earned it (or looked anywhere near like they did). This doesn't include people who have trained in other styles and are being promoted with their skills already being somewhat advanced from their previosu training, of course. IIRC, after a year of training a total of 7.5 hours a week I was a green belt (6th gup). There were a variety of students training when I was that rank, who ranged from I to IV dan. It was quite obvious that I wasn't close to even the I dans as far as skill was concerned. 

Maybe it's different in KKW Taekwon-Do.

Pax,

Chris


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 19, 2012)

IcemanSK said:


> Terry is correct in spirit, just not in details. Since Arlene is/was a fellow Chicagoan, I couldn't let that  go.



Met her a couple of times . Once at a Karate College event with Joe Lewis, Jeff Smith and Bill Wallace at Degerberg's and once at a Chuck Norris Convention where there were over 20 seminars and I attended one she taught as well as about 19 others.


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## Gorilla (Jun 19, 2012)

Manny said:


> Yous daughter can be very good to extraordinary practiciones of TKD and Karate and good for her, she deserves all what she  has acomplish, and yes there are very talented kids that can earn black belt in less that two year but they are very very few.
> 
> Glad your daughter is so good.
> 
> ...


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 20, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Manny said:
> 
> 
> > My point is not how good my duaghter is but that I don't believe in putting set in stone standards for BB. It should depend on the practicer.
> ...


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## terryl965 (Jun 20, 2012)

Chris to answer your question the KKW standerds has not been change that I know of. The other way to get a KKW black belt is by winning first place in a quailfying meet. 

I believe all schools have a set curriculum but I also know all schools do not hold people to the highest standerds including the KKW. Just no way to govern that completely, just like in school athlete get great grades but in reality some can barely read or write. I believe the same happens in TKD just because you can execute techniques does not mean you completely understand those techs. What I have taken from this converstation is this each there own and GOD help the TKD(martial art) world if people keep dropping standerds. I do not believe in handing someone a belt because they been with me for five years, they must earn it. I have had students that recieve there BB in two year and some that have taken eight, in the end does that belt really mean anything except you finish.


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## Gorilla (Jun 20, 2012)

Chris...man I did not say what I meant in that post.   I believe that you should have standards to achieve BB.  The minimum criteria is set by the  KKW and most schools add to that. I believe that the time to achieve them should be flexible to first Dan.  After first Dan time in grade minimums should be met at least.  Curriculum standards must always be met.

I hope this gives clarity on my thoughts!!!  My thoughts in this regard have been around time in grade to first Dan.

This going to make allot of people angry but we are currently training with a 7 year old girl that if she continue to work a as hard as she does and train as much as she does will make first poom By 9 and deserve it.  She loves it and is very dedicated...you can she it in her actions...hell you can see it in her eyes.

We have another boy who is just as skilled but not as mature.  He will be granted grade slower

We have around 15 students in this age range and one stands out.


chrispillertkd said:


> Gorilla said:
> 
> 
> > So there are no standards that everyone must meet in order to be promoted to 1st dan? Do you mean in regards to _objective_ standards (i.e., everyone must know these patterns, this type of step sparring, etc.) or do you mean _subjective_ standards (i.e., everyone must be _this_ good at the objective criteria)?
> ...


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 20, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> Chris to answer your question the KKW standerds has not been change that I know of. The other way to get a KKW black belt is by winning first place in a quailfying meet.



 This is interesting. Do you mean they can get a 1st dan this way? I thought such tournaments required dan ranking to compete (and then you could get promoted higher for winning the Olympics or some other similar competition). It's a practice I find questionable since there is more to TKD than free sparring but the KKW can do whatever it wants.

Pax,

Chris


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## tigycho (Jun 20, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> The other way to get a KKW black belt is by winning first place in a quailfying meet.



Really?  BJJ belt promotions are sometimes granted on the basis of being able to beat just about anyone your own rank and to beat and/or hold your own against people of the next rank up, but I've never heard of 'combat promotion' in Tae Kwon Do. 

I suppose since there is no actual oversight by the Kukkiwon, any KKW 4th Dan or higher could sign a KKW 1st Dan recommend for any reason they wanted.  Is that what you were referring to, or is here a more official combat promotion system that I'm unaware of?


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## Archtkd (Jun 20, 2012)

tigycho said:


> Really?  BJJ belt promotions are sometimes granted on the basis of being able to beat just about anyone your own rank and to beat and/or hold your own against people of the next rank up, but I've never heard of 'combat promotion' in Tae Kwon Do.
> 
> I suppose since there is no actual oversight by the Kukkiwon, any KKW 4th Dan or higher could sign a KKW 1st Dan recommend for any reason they wanted.  Is that what you were referring to, or is here a more official combat promotion system that I'm unaware of?



Many countries overseas, especially the developing one, base dan promotion on nothing else, but Olympic sparring. That usually means practitioners are doing taekwondo for only  one thing, sparring.The Kukkiwon doesn't like it, but it happens. The WTF also kept its eyes closed to the issue for years, especially during the early days when it was building up taekwondo as an Olympic sport. 

In general,  the kukkiwon, it seems, begins cracking the whip at the higher dan levels -- 4th dan and up. The Kukkiwon expects holders of those dans to be the teachers. Also, holders of those dans are the ones most likely to have any direct contact with the organization.  In that respect, the Kukkiwon will routinely fail unqualified people who take its instructor courses and do its higher dan tests in Korea.


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## tigycho (Jun 20, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> Many countries overseas, especially the developing one, base dan promotion on nothing else, but Olympic sparring.



So, the TKD haters who say it has devolved into nothing but a sport are, in those cases, absolutely correct.  Interesting.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 20, 2012)

tigycho said:


> So, the TKD haters who say it has devolved into nothing but a sport are, in those cases, absolutely correct.  Interesting.


It would certainly appear that way. I have voiced my concerns many times here regarding tkd sparring and people always respond "ralph, you must understand, olympic tkd sparring is only a very small part of the curriculum, you must realise there is so much more to kkw tkd than just the sparring you see." Now Im told dan promotion can be based soley on olympic style sparring OR winning first place in a qualifying meet. So this person winning the qualifying meet may know no forms, not understand the traditions of tkd, the self defence aspect, the many other forms of sparring included in the kkw curriculum (the ones mastercole insisted kkw students know) or even how to tie a belt and they get handed a black belt based on a tournament result. At least now Im convinced that there is definetly a "sport" side to tkd and a "martial art" side, despite what some have tried to tell me.


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## Archtkd (Jun 20, 2012)

tigycho said:


> So, the TKD haters who say it has devolved into nothing but a sport are, in those cases, absolutely correct.  Interesting.



I don't think devolution is the right word. I say that because there are lots of places in the world where taekwondo practice, which got to those countries, fairly recently,  was  in the beginning nothing  but Olympic sparring. It's only after many people in those places learn sparring and discover  they all can't compete that they begin taking other aspects of taekwondo seriously. That includes poomsae, breaking, self defense, demonstration and other things. Essentially, it's the sparring (sport) part, which lures lots of young people to Kukkiwon taekwondo. When taekwondo got to Kenya in 1975, for example, sparring is the thing which helped draw many entrenched Shotokan and Gojuryu karateka to taekwondo. Those karateka, who had been taught by Japanese teachers, who preceded Korean taekwondoin, became the pioneers of Kenya taekwondo.  I don't think that situation is unique to Kenya or even the developing world. There are lots of good taekwondoin who I know here in the United States, who focused solely on sparring in their early taekwondo years in the 1970s, but are now practicing Kukkiwon taekwondo in a more balanced way.


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## Markku P (Jun 21, 2012)

tigycho said:


> So, the TKD haters who say it has devolved into nothing but a sport are, in those cases, absolutely correct.  Interesting.



What's wrong to be a "sport"? I feel it's pretty useless to draw a line that some martial arts are more as a sport and some more like "art", If we look a definition of sport then perhaps every martial arts style goes with that definition?

/Markku P.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 21, 2012)

Markku P said:


> What's wrong to be a "sport"? I feel it's pretty useless to draw a line that some martial arts are more as a sport and some more like "art", If we look a definition of sport then perhaps every martial arts style goes with that definition?
> 
> /Markku P.



I'd say that any art that includes free sparring has to be considered as having at least *some* degree of sport-orientation. But it's also true that some arts/schools place more emphasis on sport. And it also seems to be true that there are some that are purely sport, as would be the case of someone being given a dan rank based only on winning a tournament.

The question that arises (quite often...) is should sport-oriented schools stop calling what they teach a martial art, and if so, how *much* sport orientation can a school have and still be considered a martial art.

Personally, I prefer the non-sporting aspects, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy some competition.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 21, 2012)

Markku P said:


> What's wrong to be a "sport"? I feel it's pretty useless to draw a line that some martial arts are more as a sport and some more like "art", If we look a definition of sport then perhaps every martial arts style goes with that definition?
> 
> /Markku P.


Its a question of interpritation. Going for a run can be a morning routine, or your career.
Taekwondo can be a Martial Art or a Martial Sport. You decide that.
The problem is when people go looking for one, and find a teacher whos decided theyre going to make it the other.


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## Gorilla (Jun 21, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Its a question of interpritation. Going for a run can be a morning routine, or your career.
> Taekwondo can be a Martial Art or a Martial Sport. You decide that.
> The problem is when people go looking for one, and find a teacher whos decided theyre going to make it the other.



I think that you have room to do both but but focus may go one way or the other for certain periods of time and at different points in peoples careers.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 21, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> I think that you have room to do both but but focus may go one way or the other for certain periods of time and at different points in peoples careers.


Of course - But thats option three.
Option 1: Seeking Self Defence.
Option 2: Seeking Sport.
Option 3: Seeking both with an emphasis on one of the two.
Option 4: Seeking both with no emphasis.

But my point is, what about the Dojang that only offer one? Lets turn it around. A Dojang only offers Self Defence themed training. But You want the Sport angle. But it simply isnt available in Your area. Hows that any different?
Then one could say, so they should be teaching both then, shouldnt they.

That, Good Sir, is My point. They should be teaching both. But much like how the Student can decide which they want, or if they want to get both and focus on one, the teachers do the same. So if a teacher chooses to make it all about Self Defence, and You want Sport; Or as it were, makes it all about Sport and You want Self Defence.


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## tigycho (Jun 21, 2012)

Markku P said:


> What's wrong to be a "sport"? I feel it's pretty useless to draw a line that some martial arts are more as a sport and some more like "art", If we look a definition of sport then perhaps every martial arts style goes with that definition?
> 
> /Markku P.



Nothing is wrong with sport.  You've misunderstood me, I think.  I was simply expressing a sentiment similar to RalphMcPherson, in that I have heard people deride TKD as 'just a sport, not a martial art', and I have watched TKDers (including myself) deny the allegations.

But if it is possible to know NOTHING about TKD other than how to win at sparring, and earn a black belt, then, at least in those cases, the people saying TKD is just a sport are correct, and I have to concede the point.

Which doens't mean I have to start practicing TKD that way, or concede that sport is all TKD can ever be, since it can be demonstrably more, and is for most of us.

Some TKDins practice TKD as a sport only, as mentioned above, some practice only as a self defense art, some only for spiritual gain or physical fitness.  Most blend those aspects to greater or lesser degree, emphasizing what they value, and de-emphasizing other components.


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## tigycho (Jun 21, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'd say that any art that includes free sparring has to be considered as having at least *some* degree of sport-orientation.



This would also depend on the sort of free sparring.  Certainly, if it is WTF style sparring, it is a likely sporting endeavor.  

However, if the free sparring is 'aliveness' training, geared toward training out the flinch response, handling adrenal dump, and a near full array of technique geared toward ending a fight, rather than scoring points, it could easily be considered completely martial in character.


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## leadleg (Jun 21, 2012)

The KKW will give reduction of time in grade for certain reasons,one medalling in worlds or the olympics, you still would need to test. As for someone earning a black belt for sparring only, never learning forms, I have not seen that. Terry says he knows of a school that only does sparring and teaches no other TKD at all? I have not seen that either. I have seen TKD schools who specialise in sparring but teach other aspect as well. I suppose if you want to cheat the system or you have little integrity you can promote without sound reasoning.


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## Archtkd (Jun 21, 2012)

tigycho said:


> Some TKDins practice TKD as a sport only, as mentioned above, some practice only as a self defense art, some only for spiritual gain or physical fitness.  Most blend those aspects to greater or lesser degree, emphasizing what they value, and de-emphasizing other components.


 That, I think sums it up.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 21, 2012)

Manny: do not be afraid to enforce your standards for your students.  Keep the standards high, demand quality from your students.  Do not worry if your timeline takes longer than others.


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## terryl965 (Jun 21, 2012)

leadleg said:


> The KKW will give reduction of time in grade for certain reasons,one medalling in worlds or the olympics, you still would need to test. As for someone earning a black belt for sparring only, never learning forms, I have not seen that. Terry says he knows of a school that only does sparring and teaches no other TKD at all? I have not seen that either. I have seen TKD schools who specialise in sparring but teach other aspect as well. I suppose if you want to cheat the system or you have little integrity you can promote without sound reasoning.



Look sorry if I ruffled a few feathers but we all know sport TKD school only if we are doing competition. We also know the one's like mine that blends it all together, that also has a competition team with there own practice time. The KKW can never ever be sure all Balck Belts are to any standereds just like any other org or style out there. All they can do is hope that instructor keep the quality and intrigrity in TKD and that is all any of us can do.

As far as people getting promoted without knowing anything look at the USAT and what they tried to do with all those people skip Dan and testing for ranks they did not even know the poomsae for. It was a total miss up by all parties involved and hopefully people learned some are here for a rank only and not the material.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 23, 2012)

Manny said:


> My way of thinking is that if I would have a dojang I would belt sistem I will use for my students would be: white, yellow,green,blue and red, the minimum time to obtain the next belt will be one full year, this means to obtain a Black Belt the student must have a minimum of 5 years as a colored belt.


As a school owner, you may do as you wish, and certainly I wouldn't fault you for it.  But make sure that your reasons for extending the time to more than twice the average are for the benefit of your students and not for some kind of time in grade bragging rights.

Also, don't compare taekwondo time in grade to BJJ time in grade as others here have.  Taekwondo and Brazilian jiujitsu are different arts with no real commonality aside from both having a competitive element and both having belts.  

In Korea, it takes a year.  Most schools that I have visited average two to three years.  And in KKW taekwondo, first dan is still considered a beginning grade.  Someone earlier said something along the lines of, 'I can see it for higher ranks, going from red to black...'  Well, red belt isn't a high rank at all.

I don't personally care how long someone takes to get from white to black.  That is between them and their instructor.  The quality of their practice will show in what they do.



Manny said:


> a child below 18 years achieve black belt status?? Yes but not a black belt to wear on his/her waist, I will use the poom blet (red/black).


Why eighteen?  The KKW standard for a dan grade is fifteen.  If the org has issued a dan grade, why would you issue a pum belt??



Manny said:


> I think I will not acept children below 10 years.


A lot of schools have age minimums.  You need to determine what is right for you in this regard.

To those who have asked about getting a black belt without self defense, how are you defining self defense?  Learning to avoid blows and to block and strike with various parts of the body qualifies as self defense.  It may not be the most thorough SD curriculum, but it is 'self defense' in the general sense.  Does BJJ have 'self defense' beyond grappling?  I don't practice it, so I don't know first hand, but so far as I know, BJJ is about as SD oriented as taekwondo, one having few grapples and the other having no strikes whatsoever.  Haedong gumdo also has no practical SD element.  Should those arts not issue a black belt?

Just to clarify, a black belt in KKW taekwondo signifies that the student has proficiency in the geub level material taught in a particular school, with the material in the KKW textbook serving as either the entire curriculum or as the foundation of the school's curriculum.  Thus not all schools will be identical in this regard, but should share the same foundational skills.


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## Gorilla (Jun 23, 2012)

Pretty much sums it up Daniel.... From my perspective a five year time frame to reach BB might be the right thing for some... others it may  actually be lowering the bar...do what is right for the student....set the standard for achievement not a specific time frame...after 1st Dan follow the KKW minimum time frame standards if you are a KKW school...





Daniel Sullivan said:


> As a school owner, you may do as you wish, and certainly I wouldn't fault you for it.  But make sure that your reasons for extending the time to more than twice the average are for the benefit of your students and not for some kind of time in grade bragging rights.
> 
> Also, don't compare taekwondo time in grade to BJJ time in grade as others here have.  Taekwondo and Brazilian jiujitsu are different arts with no real commonality aside from both having a competitive element and both having belts.
> 
> ...


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## Markku P (Jun 23, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Pretty much sums it up Daniel.... From my perspective a five year time frame to reach BB might be the right thing for some... others it may  actually be lowering the bar...do what is right for the student....set the standard for achievement not a specific time frame...after 1st Dan follow the KKW minimum time frame standards if you are a KKW school...



I agree, I don't really care time limits before the 1st Dan. ( Everyone learns different speed ) Then I just follow Kukkiwon's time frames for other Dan grades. 

/Markku P.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 23, 2012)

I think the point others were trying to make was in regards to students getting a black belt WITHOUT knowing all the guep requirements. Providing they know the material, time in grade is probably irrelevent. But someone who only spars and gets a black belt goes against this concept, which is what people have issues with. If the kkw curriculum contains sparring, self defence (one steps), timber breaking and form then it doesnt seem right to get a black belt if the only thing a student does is spar.


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## terryl965 (Jun 24, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think the point others were trying to make was in regards to students getting a black belt WITHOUT knowing all the guep requirements. Providing they know the material, time in grade is probably irrelevent. But someone who only spars and gets a black belt goes against this concept, which is what people have issues with. If the kkw curriculum contains sparring, self defence (one steps), timber breaking and form then it doesnt seem right to get a black belt if the only thing a student does is spar.




Ralph no-one is saying it is right but it does happen probaly more than alot of people know. Now me I really don't care how you got your Black Belt because it does not represent me, my students or my school. I can control what happens at my school and nothing else and if more people would just take that approach we would have a better understanding what we as instructors should be doing. Just my two cents which in the economy is onlyworth.00000001 % of the face value.


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## msmitht (Jun 24, 2012)

I had to think about this one for a while. Would it really take you that long to get an adult/teen to bb? I agree with the belt system but not the time. If an adult trains 2-3 times per week you should be able to get them there in 3 years depending on your curriculum. I am talking about kukki tkd with nothing else added in. No hkd, bjj, weapons training Or bs. Could you do it in 3 like that?


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## msmitht (Jun 24, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think the point others were trying to make was in regards to students getting a black belt WITHOUT knowing all the guep requirements. Providing they know the material, time in grade is probably irrelevent. But someone who only spars and gets a black belt goes against this concept, which is what people have issues with. If the kkw curriculum contains sparring, self defence (one steps), timber breaking and form then it doesnt seem right to get a black belt if the only thing a student does is spar.



I have been to kukkiwon for an exam and no one did one step sparring. Just poomsae, sparring and breaking.


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 24, 2012)

msmitht said:


> I have been to kukkiwon for an exam and no one did one step sparring. Just poomsae, sparring and breaking.



I tested at Kukkiwon last year and did basic movements (kick combinations, etc), poomse (one random from Taeguek 1-8 + 1 from Koryo/Keumgang/Taebaek, etc depending on your rank), and one round of sparring for probably 90 seconds. We didn't do any breaking.


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## msmitht (Jun 24, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> I tested at Kukkiwon last year and did basic movements (kick combinations, etc), poomse (one random from Taeguek 1-8 + 1 from Koryo/Keumgang/Taebaek, etc depending on your rank), and one round of sparring for probably 90 seconds. We didn't do any breaking.


I was told that we would do basic combos but we never did.


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## Markku P (Jun 24, 2012)

This was my latest Taekwondo blog..


*How long should you train to become a black belt in Taekwondo?*


This is one subject that many teachers argue. Some think that you should for train 10 years for you to be ready but some feel that you can do it in a much shorter amount of time. I feel that everything depends on the student. It really matters on how much the person has trained. More importantly, it is how much the person has learned and if he/she good enough according to teacher's standards.

I remember when one teacher had an argument with me about how long students should train until they are ready for their black belt test. His felt that student should train for a minimum of 5-6 years and perhaps then they may be ready. I felt that the amount of time could be shorter. Then he said something which I have never forgotten: "We should do like they do in Korea; very hard tests and it will take a long time to get a black belt".

Now, this is a common belief, but the reality is that in Korea (in general) it is easier to get a black belt. In many cases you can become a black belt in one year and I think the average time is about 2 years. Perhaps in Korea they know something that we don't?

In our county we think too highly about black belts. But the reality is that when you get your black belt (1st Dan) you have learned all the basics and this is when the real training will start. In my schools we don't have a minimum time for getting a black belt (we follow what World Taekwondo Headquarters Kukkiwon demands).

No one has ever got a black belt in my schools in one year. The average time has been 3 to 4 years. I try to push for 3 years but so far I haven't been successful with it. I think students should go up with the belts as fast they feel comfortable otherwise we wouldnt use belt system anyway? I think the belt system is more like a "motivational tool" and we should use it for this purpose.

What should I know in order to achieve a black belt? I think this is easy to answer. The minimum is what Kukkiwon ask and then each teacher should decide themselves if they feel they have to add more material. One argument is of course, what about "mental or spiritual" growth? My answer is very simple; we are not professional in that area, we are not a priests or psychologists so we shouldn't concentrate too much in that area.


Yours,

Markku Parviainen


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 24, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think the point others were trying to make was in regards to students getting a black belt WITHOUT knowing all the guep requirements. *Providing they know the material, time in grade is probably irrelevent.*


With regards to geub ranks, I agree.  Though if the time in grade is exceptionally short, a school owner might have some explaining to do.  

When the time in grade is exceptionally long, as in the scenario presented by Manny, nobody will ask you to explain it and by black belt, students will certainly be ready and then some.



ralphmcpherson said:


> But someone who only spars and gets a black belt goes against this concept, which is what people have issues with. If the kkw curriculum contains sparring, self defence (one steps), timber breaking and form then it doesnt seem right to get a black belt if the only thing a student does is spar.


The textbook itself lists forms and sparring in detail.  The only place where kyuk pah (timber breaking) is mentioned that I recall was in the section about setting up demonstrations.  One steps are not laid out either, though there are some shown in various descriptions of the forms.  But there is no list of official KKW one steps.  

I would personally find ildan with no pumse to be odd.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 24, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Pretty much sums it up Daniel.... From my perspective a five year time frame to reach BB might be the right thing for some... others it may  actually be lowering the bar...do what is right for the student....set the standard for achievement not a specific time frame...after 1st Dan follow the KKW minimum time frame standards if you are a KKW school...


Personally, I don't have a problem with five years to BB.  It really is a personal choice of the school owner.  Also, if additional material is taught, such as grappling techniques and/or weapons, or perhaps additional forms, then the time between tests should be enough for the students to comfortably learn the material.

I have noticed that some people, both here and elsewhere, hold up lengthy time in grade requirements for first dan as a kind of litmus test for the legitimacy of a school, sometimes pointing to times below three years as some kind of McDojo indicator.  If a four year plus time in grade is what one wants to do, it is perfectly fine, but one should be careful not to impose that methodology onto others who feel differently.  

Everyone has a different idea of what a black belt is supposed to represent, so in Manny's case, he needs to look at what _*he*_ feels that it represents, and if or when he opens a school, that is the standard that he needs to shoot for.  Everyone has an opinion, and in most cases, they are opinions worth looking at.  But ultimately, Manny is the person that Manny has to answer to.

As the Bard says, to thine own self be true.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 24, 2012)

I think if the average guy on the street is looking for a tkd club to start training at and finds two clubs side by both teaching tkd and one takes five years to black belt and one takes two years, then he is probably inclined to think the five year school is more "legit". He may well be wrong in jumping to that conclusion, but the assumption would be understandable. As I said earlier, when I was phoning around looking for a tkd club any club that said I could get a black belt in two years was scratched off the list. As a newbie to MA, I just assumed that if all clubs are teaching "tkd" and one could do it that much quicker, then something dodgey is going on.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 24, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think if the average guy on the street is looking for a tkd club to start training at and finds two clubs side by both teaching tkd and one takes five years to black belt and one takes two years, then he is probably inclined to think the five year school is more "legit". He may well be wrong in jumping to that conclusion, but the assumption would be understandable.


Except that the average Joe probably wouldn't be inclined to ask.  You are an exception, mainly in the fact that you actually shopped around and did research.  For most, the deciding factors are location, schedule, and price.



ralphmcpherson said:


> As I said earlier, when I was phoning around looking for a tkd club any club that said I could get a black belt in two years was scratched off the list. As a newbie to MA, I just assumed that if all clubs are teaching "tkd" and one could do it that much quicker, then something dodgey is going on.


If you don't mind my asking, what was it that made two years the line in the sand?  And of the dojangs you contacted, what was the average time to ildan with no prior experience?


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 24, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Except that the average Joe probably wouldn't be inclined to ask.  You are an exception, mainly in the fact that you actually shopped around and did research.  For most, the deciding factors are location, schedule, and price.
> 
> 
> If you don't mind my asking, what was it that made two years the line in the sand?  And of the dojangs you contacted, what was the average time to ildan with no prior experience?


Daniel, the funny thing was that the clubs with the two year black belts actually told me the time in grade over the phone without me asking, almost as if it was a selling point, whereas the ones with longer time in grade I had to ask them. I made many calls at the time because there are heaps of tkd clubs in my area so accessability wasnt a problem with any of them. The majority of kkw clubs were about three years to first dan and the non kkw clubs ranged from three to five years. There were two or three clubs I phoned (kkw) that were two years. I come from a shotokan background (did it for two or three years in my teens) and shotokan was always a minimum five years so when I started looking around fr a tkd club my line in the sand was probably, under three years = alarm bells.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 24, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Daniel, the funny thing was that the clubs with the two year black belts actually told me the time in grade over the phone without me asking, almost as if it was a selling point, whereas the ones with longer time in grade I had to ask them.


It may be a selling point to parents with kids who are shifted from one activity to another every couple of years.  To an adult, such as yourself or me, not so much, but it's probably something they say often enough that they don't differentiate.



ralphmcpherson said:


> I made many calls at the time because there are heaps of tkd clubs in my area so accessability wasnt a problem with any of them. The majority of kkw clubs were about three years to first dan and the non kkw clubs ranged from three to five years. There were two or three clubs I phoned (kkw) that were two years.


So on average, it sounds like three to four years of the clubs you sampled.



ralphmcpherson said:


> I come from a shotokan background (did it for two or three years in my teens) and shotokan was always a minimum five years so when I started looking around fr a tkd club my line in the sand was probably, under three years = alarm bells.


I could see that.


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## tigycho (Jun 25, 2012)

The second TKD club I was involved in had an expected 5 year time-in-grade to black belt, for administrative reasons.  It is populated primarily with children and teens (up to college age), with very few settled adults involved as students.

Thus, the class format is tied to the rhythms of the school calendar, with belt testing done at the end of each semester.  With 10 Geups to get through (white->yellow->green->blue->red, with intermediate stripes), this will take 5 years, unless you also rigorously attend the reduced schedule classes during the summer, which few do, so there are often only a handful testing after the summer 'semester'.

I remember being 'bored' with the yellow belt curriculum over the course of the better part of a year, but that was mitigated in that the material being trained was generally applicable to all levels, rather than 'special techniques' for each belt level.  That is, rather than working on memorized sets of pre-arranged stuff which are belt segregated, everyone would work on the same drills, or combinations, and the higher ranks were simply expected to perform at a higher level or to perform a more difficult/extended variant of the exact same combination.


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## Gorilla (Jun 25, 2012)

Great Post!


QUOTE=Markku P;1500352]This was my latest Taekwondo blog..


*How long should you train to become a black belt in Taekwondo?*


This is one subject that many teachers argue. Some think that you should for train 10 years for you to be ready but some feel that you can do it in a much shorter amount of time. I feel that everything depends on the student. It really matters on how much the person has trained. More importantly, it is how much the person has learned and if he/she good enough according to teacher's standards.

I remember when one teacher had an argument with me about how long students should train until they are ready for their black belt test. His felt that student should train for a minimum of 5-6 years and perhaps then they may be ready. I felt that the amount of time could be shorter. Then he said something which I have never forgotten: "We should do like they do in Korea; very hard tests and it will take a long time to get a black belt".

Now, this is a common belief, but the reality is that in Korea (in general) it is easier to get a black belt. In many cases you can become a black belt in one year and I think the average time is about 2 years. Perhaps in Korea they know something that we don't?

In our county we think too highly about black belts. But the reality is that when you get your black belt (1st Dan) you have learned all the basics and this is when the real training will start. In my schools we don't have a minimum time for getting a black belt (we follow what World Taekwondo Headquarters Kukkiwon demands).

No one has ever got a black belt in my schools in one year. The average time has been 3 to 4 years. I try to push for 3 years but so far I haven't been successful with it. I think students should go up with the belts as fast they feel comfortable otherwise we wouldn&#8217;t use belt system anyway? I think the belt system is more like a "motivational tool" and we should use it for this purpose.

What should I know in order to achieve a black belt? I think this is easy to answer. The minimum is what Kukkiwon ask and then each teacher should decide themselves if they feel they have to add more material. One argument is of course, what about "mental or spiritual" growth? My answer is very simple; we are not professional in that area, we are not a priest&#8217;s or psychologists so we shouldn't concentrate too much in that area.


Yours,

Markku Parviainen[/QUOTE]


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