# The K is on the Way



## SPX (Nov 21, 2012)

Looks like there's an organized campaign to get Karate in the Olympics. . .


http://www.thekisontheway.com/


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## arnisador (Nov 21, 2012)

Separate from TKD? I wonder if they'll say that's slicing things too finely.


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## SPX (Nov 21, 2012)

I would hope not.  While the two styles are more similar than they are different, the scoring systems make the competition style different enough that I think they can justify having both.

Also, there are rumors that TKD might be getting the boot after 2020. . .


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## arnisador (Nov 21, 2012)

The scoring does make a big difference, I agree--but I wonder what the Olympic Committee will say.


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## SPX (Nov 21, 2012)

Apparently a vote was taken for 2016 and but Karate didn't receive the requisite 2/3 to become an Olympic sport.  Now the hope is for 2020.

I've been hearing a fair amount of buzz over the past year or two, though.  So I think it has a good chance.


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## arnisador (Nov 21, 2012)

Well, that'd be great--and overdue for another Oriental sport--but I confess I remain somewhat pessimistic!


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## SPX (Nov 21, 2012)

I think TKD's fate has a lot to do with it.  The WTF President sounds confident, but this article confirms that there is talk that TKD could be dropped from the Olympics:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/06/26/us-olympics-taekwondo-korea-idUSSP12131120080626

If that were to actually happen then I think Karate's chances will be a lot better.

I've heard a lot of karatekas saying they don't want it to happen unless it's knockdown rules that get approved.  I don't think that will ever happen, though.


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## arnisador (Nov 21, 2012)

I doubt they'd approve that. I personally prefer karate-style rules to TKD-style rules, but the high kicks do bring in the crowds, I'd wager.


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## SPX (Nov 21, 2012)

Just from what I've heard, the IOC doesn't like TKD and they consider it something of a renegade sport for countries that don't possess the greatest respect on the world stage.  The fact that a TKDer kicked a referee in the head in Beijing didn't help, either.  

Also, within WKF rules, not only are head punches allowed but you can also throw your opponent and attack after your opponent has been grounded.  

From what I've watched, I actually think it makes for a more exciting viewing experience than WTF TKD.


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## Jaeimseu (Nov 21, 2012)

Taekwondo could be out, but I've been hearing that said for probably ten years or more and it's still there. Taekwondo's ruleset, like it or not, makes it unique from other "combat" sports.


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## SPX (Nov 21, 2012)

Don't get me wrong, I'm cool with TKD.  I actually think it looks like a lot of fun to DO . . . just maybe not a great deal of fun to watch.


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## chinto (Nov 23, 2012)

I am not for it! Karate is for self defense, and there are already way to many people who do not understand good at sparring does not mean good in a fight. SD is survival and at least what they did with TKD was such a SICK JOKE that I do not want to see karate watered down any were near that badly!!!
'


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## SPX (Nov 24, 2012)

Karate is already watered down.  It has to be.

In your SD training do you actually gouge out your training partners' eyes?  I would expect not.


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## Tez3 (Nov 24, 2012)

SPX said:


> Karate is already watered down. It has to be.
> 
> In your SD training do you actually gouge out your training partners' eyes? I would expect not.



Ah the well worn eye gouging cliche, usually found when criticising MMA.  This comment has actually nothing to do with anything. It's really hard to gouge someone eyes out when they are fighting* so it's probably not a technique worth practising anyway, poke the eyes by all means but the time you take trying to get the eyeball out is time you don't have when defending yourself. It's a martial arts cliche just like the one about hitting the nose with an upward strike kills the attacker when the 'bone' drives into the brain.

Karate watered down, well that's a different debate but I can see that any sport chosen for the Olympics gets changed. As for TKD I wouldn't consider the countries that actually practice the sport at Olympic standard renegades! It's a relatively cheap sport for poorer countries to take part in unlike gymnastics, swimming, the equestion events, sailing etc and is encouraged by the IOC for this reason. I doubt they are bothered by one competitor kicking a ref either, he was disciplined for it so that's the end of it as far as the IOC is concerned. 


*http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/Locked-gouging-eyes-girlfriend/story-16062654-detail/story.html


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## Jaeimseu (Nov 24, 2012)

chinto said:


> I am not for it! Karate is for self defense, and there are already way to many people who do not understand good at sparring does not mean good in a fight. SD is survival and at least what they did with TKD was such a SICK JOKE that I do not want to see karate watered down any were near that badly!!!
> '



Why do you care if someone else practices karate or any other martial art for a reason other than self defense? How does that in any way affect what you do?

Is there a forum somewhere where people criticize other Olympic events like shooting? "Guns are for killing your enemy!"

As for the TKD being a "sick joke," I would have to say you probably don't understand the game. And if someone doesn't understand that sparring may not translate directly to fighting, I don't think that's a problem with the game. However, there are concepts and skills that can be developed in Taekwondo or other "combat sports" that can be used in a "fight." 

Anyway, I go back to why you care. If I practice for fitness, for sports, or just for fun and recreation, why should that bother you?


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## Jaeimseu (Nov 24, 2012)

SPX said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm cool with TKD.  I actually think it looks like a lot of fun to DO . . . just maybe not a great deal of fun to watch.



Yeah, I think it's a sport that you need to really know to appreciate as a spectator in many cases. They are trying to address that, and I think it's cool that they aren't afraid to tinker with things and try to continue to develop the game.  And it is fun to do, though if you end up across from someone out of your league, you will gain a newfound respect for what a good Taekwondo player can do. 

I may have missed it, but what would the rules be for Olympic Karate? The only karate competition I've really seen was stop-point sparring, which wasn't very exciting to watch, either, in my opinion.


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## chinto (Nov 24, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> Why do you care if someone else practices karate or any other martial art for a reason other than self defense? How does that in any way affect what you do?
> 
> Is there a forum somewhere where people criticize other Olympic events like shooting? "Guns are for killing your enemy!"
> 
> ...


in several towns I know of the only thing you can find is Olympic tkd stupidity.  oh and by they way I do not do a lot of sparring because you do not do sport sparring the way you do SD.  I train and always have for self defense. 

 you may train as you wish, but what I see in Olympic tkd is just a shame!  The least they could have done is make it mostly like standard sport sparring!  what they have instead is not even combative sport to speak of.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 24, 2012)

arnisador said:


> Separate from TKD? I wonder if they'll say that's slicing things too finely.



It would be interesting to have a stand up art that would allow multiple styles to compete. I wonder if TKD rules could be massaged to make this happen?


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## Buka (Nov 24, 2012)

Karate, Olympics - I'm all for it.


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## kitkatninja (Nov 25, 2012)

SPX said:


> Looks like there's an organized campaign to get Karate in the Olympics. . .
> 
> http://www.thekisontheway.com/



This is not the first time, the last one organised by the WKF was "Olympic karate now, take part" program.



chinto said:


> I am not for it! Karate is for self defense, and there are already way to many people who do not understand good at sparring does not mean good in a fight. SD is survival and at least what they did with TKD was such a SICK JOKE that I do not want to see karate watered down any were near that badly!!!
> '



I don't know, there are alot of styles of karate that are non-competitive (eg shotokai) and even within the ones that are competitive I can't see them all rushing to change all their rules.  I do see, however, karate organisations keeping their own rule sets for karate specific competitions and then creating separate Olympic training courses to adapt to Olympic rules.  After all there are WKA, WKC, style specific (Kyokushin, etc), association specific (eg JKA, etc), etc. competitions.  As well as major fundamental differences between styles that won't/can't be "ironed" out just because of (basically) a competition. 

I do see this, if it happens, a great way to promote karate and get more people doing it as a whole.


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## Gorilla (Nov 25, 2012)

This is being organized by the WKF....karate is by and large considered the front runner for inclusion in 2020...Las Vegas odds makers have given it the number one slot...do a little research on the internet and you will see!

As for TKD it was huge hit in London packed venues and exciting fights....TKD is not leaving the Olympics!  It is a cheap sport that smaller countries can participate like Tez3 said....Afghanistan and Gambon won medals!

I have kids on the JR karate National Team (NKF) and the AAU SR National Team for TKD...I think that we have pretty good shot at seeing both in the Olympics in 2020...I was at the PKF JR Championships in Cancun in August for Karate officials there were pretty optimistic that Karate would be added in 2020.  After the 2012 Olympics success TKD is going to stay


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## SPX (Nov 25, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Ah the well worn eye gouging cliche, usually found when criticising MMA.  This comment has actually nothing to do with anything. It's really hard to gouge someone eyes out when they are fighting* so it's probably not a technique worth practising anyway, poke the eyes by all means but the time you take trying to get the eyeball out is time you don't have when defending yourself. It's a martial arts cliche just like the one about hitting the nose with an upward strike kills the attacker when the 'bone' drives into the brain.



My point is that "traditional, self-defense oriented" karate is FULL of watered down, unrealistic training.  And it's full of guys practicing their deadly techniques in choreographed step-sparring.  Not that I'm hating.  As I said before, you CAN'T gouge someone's eyes out during practice, just as you CAN'T trap their arm and break it or punch them in the throat, etc.  That would be chaos.

But it's just funny how so many martial artists like to put down sport versions of their art, calling it unrealistic, saying it's not good for self-defense, when their own SD training is wrapped up in some of the most unrealistic training methods available.  

And when--if--they actually do spar and really hit each other?  It usually looks a lot like kickboxing, the same kind of free sparring that you can find in "sport" schools all over the world.





Tez3 said:


> Karate watered down, well that's a different debate but I can see that any sport chosen for the Olympics gets changed. As for TKD I wouldn't consider the countries that actually practice the sport at Olympic standard renegades! It's a relatively cheap sport for poorer countries to take part in unlike gymnastics, swimming, the equestion events, sailing etc and is encouraged by the IOC for this reason. I doubt they are bothered by one competitor kicking a ref either, he was disciplined for it so that's the end of it as far as the IOC is concerned.



I'm just passing on what I've heard from other people, on the TKD forum here in fact.  And the fact that the IOC is considering removing TKD is well-enough documented elsewhere.





Tez3 said:


> *http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/Locked-gouging-eyes-girlfriend/story-16062654-detail/story.html



His karate was too strong.


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## Tez3 (Nov 25, 2012)

SPX said:


> My point is that "traditional, self-defense oriented" karate is FULL of watered down, unrealistic training. And it's full of guys practicing their deadly techniques in choreographed step-sparring. Not that I'm hating. As I said before, you CAN'T gouge someone's eyes out during practice, just as you CAN'T trap their arm and break it or punch them in the throat, etc. That would be chaos.
> 
> But it's just funny how so many martial artists like to put down sport versions of their art, calling it unrealistic, saying it's not good for self-defense, when their own SD training is wrapped up in some of the most unrealistic training methods available.
> 
> ...


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## SPX (Nov 25, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> Is there a forum somewhere where people criticize other Olympic events like shooting? "Guns are for killing your enemy!"



Hmm, now that's a good point. . .


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## SPX (Nov 25, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> Yeah, I think it's a sport that you need to really know to appreciate as a spectator in many cases. They are trying to address that, and I think it's cool that they aren't afraid to tinker with things and try to continue to develop the game.  And it is fun to do, though if you end up across from someone out of your league, you will gain a newfound respect for what a good Taekwondo player can do.



I've spent various amounts of time in TKD classes for various orgs.  When I was a kid I trained in an ATA school for about a year and a half.  More recently, as an adult, I spent a few months in an ITF class, which I was quite excited about, but it was a very disappointing experience.  I also checked out a WTF class a few times.

I actually think WTF TKD is cool, but like you say, if you don't know what's going on it actually looks kind of ridiculous sometimes.  Still, I would like to do it.  Just gotta find the time and money.

BTW, there's a former kickboxer named Steve Vick who comes from a WTF background and he's perhaps the #1 factor in getting me interested in Olympic TKD.  If you're not familiar with him, you may want to give these a watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiRHQRk0mdk









Jaeimseu said:


> I may have missed it, but what would the rules be for Olympic Karate? The only karate competition I've really seen was stop-point sparring, which wasn't very exciting to watch, either, in my opinion.



All indications are that, if Karate DOES make it into the Olympics, it's going to be of the WKF variety, which is stop-point.

You can find the rules here (start on page 9):

http://www.wkf.net/images/downloads/...ULES%207_1.pdf

And you can watch some vids here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/WKFKarateWorldChamps


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## SPX (Nov 25, 2012)

chinto said:


> you may train as you wish, but what I see in Olympic tkd is just a shame!  The least they could have done is make it mostly like standard sport sparring!  what they have instead is not even combative sport to speak of.



You have to remember that Olympic TKD was intentionally designed in a way that would differentiate it from kickboxing, karate and ITF TKD.  They wanted it to be it's own thing.  Considering those circumstances, I think they succeeded.

Also, if you were to actually fight a good TKD player you might find it to be a surprising experience.  Those guys have a great understanding of distance, timing and footwork.  They're also fast as hell and, training full-contact as they do, they're tough.  And they'll take your head off with a kick if you're not careful.


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## SPX (Nov 25, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> That is a very crass statement.



My bad.




Tez3 said:


> My point is that you can't gouge out someones eyes when you're fighting anyway, you have to KO then first. . .



That's not true.  There are plenty of grappling positions in which you could gouge someone's eyes out.  It was illegal in the first UFCs for a reason.




Tez3 said:


> You are using the wrong word, karate and other styles aren't 'watered down' at all, what happens is that karateka when sparring may pull their strikes ie not go in full contact. This is different from being watered down. Something 'watered down' is something that's been diluted, in this case it would be karate that's not taught properly of only teaching a couple of techniques. Most karateka can go full on if they choose because their style isn't watered down at all.



The point, Tez, if it's not clear--and you have a long history of, I think, intentionally missing the point of everything I say--is that "sport" martial arts have a long history of producing participants who have better self-defense skills than those which do not, because of the "alive" training and the lack of reliance on drills with compliant partners.  Boxing, Muay Thai, Kyokushin Karate, Judo . . . these are all sports, but I would put my money on its fighters in an SD situation to make it out unscathed long before I would put my money on someone who has trained in a "self-defense" style but who has little experience actually applying their techniques against a resisting, aggressive attacker.




Tez3 said:


> I haven't seen many TKD people on here say that it's leaving the Olympics and karate taking it's place.



It was a while back now, but it has been discussed.


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## Tez3 (Nov 25, 2012)

SPX, I don't think we have a long history of anything. I don't misunderstand you at all, you said karate is watered down and I said no it's not. That's simple enough. I don't actually think you know enough to give a definative opinion on karate. Do you think then that all what you call 'non sport' karate styles don't train against resisting opponenents? Are you assuming that you know how all karate styles train?
You are making the mistake too of assuming because something was made 'illegal' in a UFC fight it must be a lethal technique rather than perhaps thinking as it was that the hype of saying 'eye gouges banned' makes the competition sound dangerous and therefore more inviting to those who want to buy tickets to watch. I think you need to have a closer look into those early UFCs to see just how much of those fights were worked and set up. People place too much store by those early shows and forget that it was a money making venture rather than a genuine attempt to find out what martial art was better than others.


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## SPX (Nov 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> SPX, I don't think we have a long history of anything. I don't misunderstand you at all, you said karate is watered down and I said no it's not. That's simple enough.



Depends on what you mean by "watered down."  In the way that I mean it, yes, it is.




Tez3 said:


> I don't actually think you know enough to give a definative opinion on karate. Do you think then that all what you call 'non sport' karate styles don't train against resisting opponenents? Are you assuming that you know how all karate styles train?



Well first off, there are literally hundreds of karate styles, so no, I don't assume that.  I hope that no one does.

And if I believe that no non-sport styles spar, then I would not have said this:

"And when--if--they actually do spar and really hit each other?  It  usually looks a lot like kickboxing, the same kind of free sparring that  you can find in 'sport' schools all over the world."

And that's exactly why it seems to me that you delight in arguing with me.  Because you frequently disregard much of what I actually say and give replies that don't show an understanding of the points that I make.  




Tez3 said:


> You are making the mistake too of assuming because something was made 'illegal' in a UFC fight it must be a lethal technique rather than perhaps thinking as it was that the hype of saying 'eye gouges banned' makes the competition sound dangerous and therefore more inviting to those who want to buy tickets to watch.



I think they made it illegal because it's a horrible thing to do to somebody and, just as I pointed out earlier, you certainly don't have to knock someone out to do it.  Have you ever been put in an RNC?  While both of that person's hands were busy locking in the choke, what's to keep you from reaching back and clawing their eyes out?  Rules and/or human goodness is the only thing.




Tez3 said:


> I think you need to have a closer look into those early UFCs to see just how much of those fights were worked and set up. People place too much store by those early shows and forget that it was a money making venture rather than a genuine attempt to find out what martial art was better than others.



I have looked into it extensively.  I do agree that there was some shadiness going on and that the Gracies made some moves with the matchmaking to intentionally stack the deck in favor of Royce.  But as for out-and-out fixing a match, no, I've never run across any evidence for that.  If you can provide some then I'd be interested to see it.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 26, 2012)

SPX said:


> Depends on what you mean by "watered down." In the way that I mean it, yes, it is.



Then perhaps you would do one of two things. Either
1 - Enlighten us all as to what your definition of "watered down" is, or
2 - Stick to the normally accepted and understood definitions.



SPX said:


> I think they made it illegal because it's a horrible thing to do to somebody and, just as I pointed out earlier, you certainly don't have to knock someone out to do it. Have you ever been put in an RNC? While both of that person's hands were busy locking in the choke, what's to keep you from reaching back and clawing their eyes out? Rules and/or human goodness is the only thing.



Or, how about this: it's not that easy to do. Eyeballs are incredibly sensistive and contact with them is incredibly painful. They're also a lot more durable than most people think. I honestly do not think you could generate enough pressure in the position you describe to damage someones eyes. Cause them pain? Sure. Give them a corneal abrassion? Sure. Blind them? I don't believe you could, no. I've seen a lot of eye injuries in the years I've spent patching people up in the ER. And I've lost an eye to a knife injury. I think that puts me in a position to say that what Tez is saying on this subject is correct.


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## SPX (Nov 26, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Then perhaps you would do one of two things. Either
> 1 - Enlighten us all as to what your definition of "watered down" is, or
> 2 - Stick to the normally accepted and understood definitions.



I guess I thought I made it clear in previous posts what I was talking about, but by saying that karate is in itself "watered down" out of necessity, I'm saying that you simply can't ever actually do the "self defense" techniques that are part of the curriculum.  You can perform drills and the like, which I don't object to or anything, but it's not like you ACTUALLY punch throats, break arms, etc during your training.  So most karateka who make derogatory statements about sport karate by saying things like, "My karate is for self-defense, it's not that useless/watered down/etc sport karate!," are kind of funny, because by and large--especially those groups who don't really do any sparring--those types are well-versed in the theory of fighting but haven't done much actual fighting.  It's no secret at this point that often times such martial artists find that their abilities break down when faced with an angry, aggressive attacker who refuses to co-operate as their compliant training partners have done in the past.

With sport karate--just like any sport martial art--those who do it have racked up a lot of hours, you know, actually fighting with people who are actively trying to fight them back.  This is of immense value, not just in sport competitions, but also in self-defense situations, those exact situations that the "self-defense" karateka constantly train for.

Now I don't want you to get me wrong:  I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a self-defense focus in karate schools.   I believe that karate, just like most any martial art, should do its best to prepare you for anything.  But what I AM saying is that training for sport develops many of the attributes that you also want to have on the street.  

In particular, consider the participants in the WKF vids that I linked to and which were commented on earlier, rather negatively.  Perhaps it all looks rather harmless, but I can assure you that if some random street thug were to mess with any of those guys the "sport karate" fighters would punch a whole through him and leave him collapsed on the sidewalk.

Also, the reason I put "sport karate" in quotes is because the line really is pretty murky.  Plenty of people train in old school, self-defense oriented dojos that also devote some time to competition.  The actual sport karate dojos that I've visited don't train for anything like what I see in the WKF vids.  They are all about this right here, which I consider to be . . . of lower quality and lesser value:










Dirty Dog said:


> Or, how about this: it's not that easy to do. Eyeballs are incredibly sensistive and contact with them is incredibly painful. They're also a lot more durable than most people think. I honestly do not think you could generate enough pressure in the position you describe to damage someones eyes. Cause them pain? Sure. Give them a corneal abrassion? Sure. Blind them? I don't believe you could, no. I've seen a lot of eye injuries in the years I've spent patching people up in the ER. And I've lost an eye to a knife injury. I think that puts me in a position to say that what Tez is saying on this subject is correct.



Well I'll be the first to acknowledge that I am not an expert at eye gouging, but I would not want my unprotected eyes to be available to someone with sharp nails to do as they wished to, regardless of the position.  

But just so I understand correctly, you're telling me that you agree with this statement:

"My point is that you can't gouge out someones eyes when you're fighting anyway, you have to KO them first."

That is, you can't come up with any positions in which someone is still conscious in which you could potentially do permanent damage to their sight?


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 26, 2012)

I don't disagree with most of what you're saying about "sport" karate. I personally don't care for the taptap, ignore the head, touch and break while people debate on if you made contact rulesets. I'm a big fan of the ITF ruleset for amateurs, and go to full contact for pros.



SPX said:


> Well I'll be the first to acknowledge that I am not an expert at eye gouging, but I would not want my unprotected eyes to be available to someone with sharp nails to do as they wished to, regardless of the position.
> 
> But just so I understand correctly, you're telling me that you agree with this statement:
> 
> ...



Is it impossible? No. I guess I could get someone flat on their back, clamp their head between my knees and dig my thumbs into their eyes. Of course, that's not a very stable position for me to be in, so it's pretty damned likely that I'm going to fail in my attempt to destroy their eyes. 
Is causing pain to the eyes easy? Yes. Is destroying the eyes easy? Not at all.

I'll restate. While it's not impossible to cause permanent injury to the human eye with your bare hands, it is certainly not easy. And in the specific case you chose to describe, I would say it would be pretty damned close to impossible. If I had you in a RNC and you chose to reach back and try to gouge out my eyes, all I'd have to do is move my head. 
If not unconcious, the person would need to be pretty much helpless.
So you can, if you choose, split hairs till they bleed, but the fact is that Tez is far more correct than you.


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## Tez3 (Nov 26, 2012)

I see we've gone from 'gouge the eyes out' to 'damage the eyes' which of course is a more likely thing that actually taking the eyes out, all they have to do is put their head down a bit more onto yours. 
An 'eye gouge' isn't what you think it is, you don't take their eyes out of the sockets, you actually poke your fingers or thumb into their eyes, it needs to be a surprise attack and it's designed to make your opponent let go of whatever he is holding of yours. There's no reason to think that anyone can't do it when needed and that includes a non martial artist. In fact when I've had to break up female fights in pubs etc quite often they are going for the eyes anyway.

Yes I've had a RNC put on me a lot of times, the best defences aren't reaching back and poking the eyes out. As Dirty Dog says hurting the eyes is much more likely and something I've seen often in boxing, sometimes deliberately so, a thumb in the eye is far from rare whether meant or not. I've seen it in MMA too usually accidental though or at least accidental looking. 
As for worked fights in the UFC read John McCarthy's authobiography as well as looking at it a bit closer. It wasn't as it is now, different owners, different times, it was far shadier and far more iffy than now. Don't look back on it with rose coloured glasses.

I've heard a good many people state that you fight the way you train so taking that as being true how then do you think those who compete in points karate are going to fare in a real fight? They are so used to just touching with one strike and pulling away the chances of them being able to deliver hard strike repeatedly are practically nil. Those who practice SD against resisting opponents are far more likely to be successful, they will also use tried and tested techniques they know will work rather than strikes and kicks designed to win in a competition. It's rare that when being attacked or mugged you are going to be able to do your high spinning round house kick that looks so good in the competition even though there it may knock your opponent down.
 By your definition though the competition karate/TKD is also watered down because they have to follow the rules, they have a ref and a time limit on which to plan out their tactics for the fight, a luxury not given in an assault/mugging situation.
It's not 'all sports styles are good at self defence and the non sports styles aren't' at all, you have to look at ever class and every instructor before you can state that. I know a club in London that doesn't compete but does 10 man kumite to grade, they train hard but don't enter comps. I know clubs that compete but know they couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag if it was for real. 
Too much generalisation doesn't make for good discussion.

BTW if you ever do successfully gouge an eye out I believe a spoon is the right instrument to put it back.


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## Gorilla (Nov 26, 2012)

How did you guys turn a K is on the way thread to eye gouging...beyond funny!


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## Tez3 (Nov 26, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> How did you guys turn a K is on the way thread to eye gouging...beyond funny!



LOL, the 'eye gouge' thing always makes me laugh, it's thought by some to be the epitome of martial arts nastiness (or badass for Americans lol) personally I always thought tearing off the testicles as that but there you go. Hands up who winced then :uhyeah:.


I think the point that SPX is trying to make is that sports karateka are better at self defence because the people who only do SD can't do eye gouges for real so karate woiuld be really good in the Olympics.


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## Gorilla (Nov 26, 2012)

http://www.wkf.net/index.php/dummy-wkf-news/135-ioc-members-visit-the-41st-world-championship.html

IOC visited WKF Championships in France!  Hopefully this will get the thread back on track....


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## chinto (Nov 26, 2012)

I have sparred with TKD people. some are very good and some are not.  but also there is a huge range of thing called TKD. some look like shotokan more then most things, and are very self defense capible, and then there is the other end that is the olympic with out hands and just not designed to be for self defense.


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## SPX (Nov 26, 2012)

kitkatninja said:


> I do see this, if it happens, a great way to promote karate and get more people doing it as a whole.



This is what I would like to see, especially adults.  Most karate classes that I've visited are woefully deficient when it comes to adults, especially adults who aren't black belts.


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## SPX (Nov 26, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> This is being organized by the WKF....karate is by and large considered the front runner for inclusion in 2020...Las Vegas odds makers have given it the number one slot...do a little research on the internet and you will see!



Is that so?  I wasn't aware of that.  Perhaps it's not a pipe dream then.


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## Tez3 (Nov 26, 2012)

SPX said:


> This is what I would like to see, especially adults. Most karate classes that I've visited are woefully deficient when it comes to adults, especially adults who aren't black belts.



so you're style bashing basically? You want to see more people 'do' karate but it's actually rubbish..........


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## SPX (Nov 26, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't disagree with most of what you're saying about "sport" karate. I personally don't care for the taptap, ignore the head, touch and break while people debate on if you made contact rulesets. I'm a big fan of the ITF ruleset for amateurs, and go to full contact for pros.



The only org that I'm familiar with that doesn't allow head shots is the ATA, but yeah, I agree that that's annoying.  As is tippy tap stuff.  I'm not saying sparring has to be full contact, but you should be required to land a solid punch or kick to score.  

I am with you on the ITF format, though.  I love it.  I actually contacted a local ITF school to see if I could participate in their tourneys and that was a no-go.  You have to be affiliated with one of their clubs, unfortunately.

I am not totally against stop-point sparring as a whole, though.  

This is all stop-point, but I could see training for this kind of sparring leading to some legit SD skills (awesome vid too):












Dirty Dog said:


> Is it impossible? No. I guess I could get someone flat on their back, clamp their head between my knees and dig my thumbs into their eyes. Of course, that's not a very stable position for me to be in, so it's pretty damned likely that I'm going to fail in my attempt to destroy their eyes.
> Is causing pain to the eyes easy? Yes. Is destroying the eyes easy? Not at all.
> 
> I'll restate. While it's not impossible to cause permanent injury to the human eye with your bare hands, it is certainly not easy. And in the specific case you chose to describe, I would say it would be pretty damned close to impossible. If I had you in a RNC and you chose to reach back and try to gouge out my eyes, all I'd have to do is move my head.
> ...



I can think of a number of grappling positions in which your eyes could be very vulnerable if eye gouging were allowed.

I'll just ask you this:  Would you participate in a match in which eye gouging was allowed?  I sure as hell wouldn't.


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## SPX (Nov 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> so you're style bashing basically? You want to see more people 'do' karate but it's actually rubbish..........



And you say that you don't intentionally misunderstand me.  I'll give you this, you troll pretty well.


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## Tez3 (Nov 26, 2012)

SPX said:


> And you say that you don't intentionally misunderstand me. I'll give you this, you troll pretty well.



No I don't troll I just get annoyed when people like you make blanket judgements about karate. How many people would have been on your case if you'd said the same about TKD... _'most TKD classes that I've visited are woefully deficient when it comes to adults, especially adults who aren't black belts.'
_Why did you think you can say that about karate classes and have no one challenge you on it? You've just said that most karate classes are woefully inadequate, ie they are rubbish. Explain that to the karateka here please, that their classes are bad.


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## SPX (Nov 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> No I don't troll I just get annoyed when people like you make blanket judgements about karate. How many people would have been on your case if you'd said the same about TKD... _'most TKD classes that I've visited are woefully deficient when it comes to adults, especially adults who aren't black belts.'
> _Why did you think you can say that about karate classes and have no one challenge you on it? You've just said that most karate classes are woefully inadequate, ie they are rubbish. Explain that to the karateka here please, that their classes are bad.



Okay, I'll give you this one.  Maybe my wording was confusing.  

What I was saying is that the kid-to-adult ratio in the majority of karate classes is unfortunately out of balance.  And most of the adults who ARE in karate classes tend to be black belts, not new students.

kitkatninja said:  "I do see this, if it happens, a great way to promote karate and get more people doing it as a whole."

To which I agreed, saying--or intending to say--that I hope it raises awareness for karate and gets more people training, especially adults.


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## Tez3 (Nov 26, 2012)

SPX said:


> Okay, I'll give you this one. Maybe my wording was confusing.
> 
> What I was saying is that the kid-to-adult ratio in the majority of karate classes is unfortunately out of balance. And most of the adults who ARE in karate classes tend to be black belts, not new students.
> 
> ...



All the karate and other styles classes I've been in as well as my own the adults class were separate from the childrens and have a wide range of belts. It's not the norm here to have adults and children train together because of child protection issues. All martial arts associations now have child protection policies. It's preferred here that if adults are with children they should be CRB checked (criminal records and sexual offenders listed, instructors and coaches should be anyway), students aren't going to do this so seperate classes for the most part. I know this is difficult for famliies who want to train together but it's the way things are mostly now, even those classes who still have adults and children I think will find they have to separate eventually.
http://www.ukasko.com/childprotection.php


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## SPX (Nov 26, 2012)

From what I have been able to gather, the situation with traditional martial arts in general is different--and better--than it is here in the United States.  Arts like Karate and TKD for many, many years (and kind of still) were regarded by a lot of people as not serious fighting disciplines.  I can't count the number of times I heard someone say this to me (or some variation of it):  "Karate is for women and children.  Real men do muay Thai."  In the past couple of years I think the situation has improved somewhat and it's not an exaggeration to say that it at least partially has Machida to thank for that.

In the past 3 or so years, though, I have visited a number of TKD and Karate schools, or talked to the instructors and got detailed descriptions of their classes.  I can give you the run down on what I found:

ITF TKD school:  Kids and adults train together.  Class was about 85% kids.  Adults were of a variety of belt colors.

ITF TKD school:  Didn't visit this one but talked to the instructor on the phone.  He said that most of his students were also kids with just a few adults.  They all train together.

Shotokan Karate school:  Talked to the instructor.  Mostly kids with just a few adults.  Adults mostly just health-and-fitness minded individuals.

WTF TKD School:  Mostly kids, but a decent smattering of adults of various ranks.  Everyone trains together.  Not too bad, but not great either.

Wado-ryu Karate school:  Separate kids and adult classes.  Adult classes usually average about 5-8 people.  Mostly black belts + one brown belt and one purple belt.

Shotokan Karate class:  Very small class.  Visited twice.  The first time consisted of two instructors and two students (one kid, one adult).  Students were both white belts.  The second time I visited there were only three people in the class, all black belts.


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## SPX (Nov 26, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> http://www.wkf.net/index.php/dummy-wkf-news/135-ioc-members-visit-the-41st-world-championship.html
> 
> IOC visited WKF Championships in France!  Hopefully this will get the thread back on track....



Wow, that's actually really interesting!  If they're visiting then I would have to think that means they really are serious. . .


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 26, 2012)

SPX said:


> I can think of a number of grappling positions in which your eyes could be very vulnerable if eye gouging were allowed.
> 
> I'll just ask you this:  Would you participate in a match in which eye gouging was allowed?  I sure as hell wouldn't.




No. I also wouldn't participate in one that allowed the use of tasers.


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## SPX (Nov 26, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> No. I also wouldn't participate in one that allowed the use of tasers.



Me either.


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## Gorilla (Nov 26, 2012)

It a K is on the way thread!  Please!


Start a eye gouging thread for heavens sake....:rtfm:


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## SPX (Nov 27, 2012)

Well shiznit, let's talk about the K (possibly) being on the way!

You start . . . then I'll go.


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## Tez3 (Nov 27, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> It a K is on the way thread! Please!
> 
> 
> Start a eye gouging thread for heavens sake....:rtfm:



There is this dichtomy though in that the OP thinks from his experience that karate is not very good yet he wants it in the Olympics. 
I think actually it will hurt karate as it has Judo and TKD as well as some other sports in that it will be altered to make it suitable for television and audiences with short attention spans to be able to watch. As for the IOC watching they go to a good many sports, it's part of the perks of the job to be able to go free to any sporting occasion they want, they've been to the Rugby and Cricket World Cups as well, neither of these is up for being included in the Olympics so I wouldn't get any hopes up.


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## Gorilla (Nov 27, 2012)

There is a short kist of 8 sports to be included in 2012.  Karate is at the top of that list.  That is why the IOC visited Karate.

As far as TKD in the Olympics many would argue that it is the best thing that happened.  The sport is only one aspect of the art.  The sport was designed to be unique and they accomplished that goal. Not everyone likes it OK.

Karate being added to the Olympics will do wonders for the sport!  The arts will remain the same!


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## Tez3 (Nov 27, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> There is a short kist of 8 sports to be included in 2012. Karate is at the top of that list. That is why the IOC visited Karate.
> 
> As far as TKD in the Olympics many would argue that it is the best thing that happened. The sport is only one aspect of the art. The sport was designed to be unique and they accomplished that goal. Not everyone likes it OK.
> 
> Karate being added to the Olympics will do wonders for the sport! The arts will remain the same!




Karate in the Olympics will be nothing more than kick boxing. Television companies want spectacle so they'll be expecting Van Damme movie type bouts and tha's not going to happen unless the rules are changed and the style changed radically. Karate for most isn't a sport, there is sport karate of course but the majority of karateka aren't into the sport so what you will see if TKD goes out is the TKD people coming back with slight modifications as 'karate'. 
The full contact karate kumite isn't going to be acceptable in the Olympics they already have boxing, they will want chest and head guards so again it will end up like TKD.

Supposing karate is chosen who will be the controlling board for 'karate', the Shotokan people, the Wado, the Goju Ryu etc etc? We have organisations calling themselve 'world' authorities but they are for a style not karate as a whole. It's going to be very difficult to get everyone to agree to be in one organisation, the in fighting will not be good for karate. 

If karate is to be represented will there be kata comps as well as kumite, if karate is to be shown correctly in order benefit it it should be shown properly. Inclusion in the Olympics has done little for Judo I can't see it being any different for karate.


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## Sojobo (Nov 27, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Supposing karate is chosen who will be the controlling board for 'karate', the Shotokan people, the Wado, the Goju Ryu etc etc? We have organisations calling themselve 'world' authorities but they are for a style not karate as a whole. It's going to be very difficult to get everyone to agree to be in one organisation, the in fighting will not be good for karate.



The IOC regognise the W.K.F. as the governing body. The WKF in turn only recognise NGB's that are registered with them and athletes would be selected by the NGB's to compete at the Olympics.



Tez3 said:


> If karate is to be represented will there be kata comps as well as kumite, if karate is to be shown correctly in order benefit it it should be shown properly. Inclusion in the Olympics has done little for Judo I can't see it being any different for karate.



As I understand it the WKF bid to include Karate into the Olympics excludes Kata. It will just be Kumite.

Sojobo


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## Tez3 (Nov 27, 2012)

Sojobo said:


> The IOC regognise the W.K.F. as the governing body. The WKF in turn only recognise NGB's that are registered with them and athletes would be selected by the NGB's to compete at the Olympics.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Then we will be back to the TKD situation where only members of one organisation will be chosen. Look where that left the UK this Olympics.
Karate will end up as kick boxing which is a shame, far better to just put kick boxing in.


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## Sojobo (Nov 27, 2012)

I'm inclined to agree with you Tez,

For example if, as a British athlete, you wanted to compete in the Olympics your association would have to be a member of the BKF (British Karate Federation).

http://www.britishkaratefederation.co.uk/

Sojobo


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## SPX (Nov 27, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> There is this dichtomy though in that the OP thinks from his experience that karate is not very good yet he wants it in the Olympics.



Hey Tez, there's something I've been meaning to ask you. . .

Would you be my best friend?  Because I think we have a really strong connection, you know. . .


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## Tez3 (Nov 27, 2012)

SPX said:


> Hey Tez, there's something I've been meaning to ask you. . .
> 
> Would you be my best friend? Because I think we have a really strong connection, you know. . .



You'd have to come and visit me in the asylum though and I'm only allowed one friend a month in. My fault, I asked if I could have more friends visit as the last ones were delicious........


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## SPX (Nov 27, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> You'd have to come and visit me in the asylum though and I'm only allowed one friend a month in. My fault, I asked if I could have more friends visit as the last ones were delicious........



Hmm, I see.  Well maybe we'll just stick to the forum. . .


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## SPX (Nov 27, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Karate will end up as kick boxing which is a shame, far better to just put kick boxing in.



If it does ever happen it will be this right here:


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## SPX (Nov 27, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> As far as TKD in the Olympics many would argue that it is the best thing that happened.  The sport is only one aspect of the art.  The sport was designed to be unique and they accomplished that goal. Not everyone likes it OK.
> 
> Karate being added to the Olympics will do wonders for the sport!  The arts will remain the same!




I do tend to view it as more of a good thing than a bad thing.  It is inevitable that some schools will begin focusing ONLY on Olympic-style competition, just as some TKD schools have done exactly that.  But just like with TKD, there are always going to be plenty of karate styles and orgs who do something completely different.  As well as those who try to balance the two approaches.

As I said earlier, if it raises awareness and gets more adults training then I'm for it.


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## SPX (Nov 27, 2012)

Sojobo said:


> As I understand it the WKF bid to include Karate into the Olympics excludes Kata. It will just be Kumite.



Which I think is kind of a shame, because that could be one of the very things that differentiates karate from any other martial sport that is currently on the Olympic roster.


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## Gorilla (Nov 27, 2012)

http://olympics.time.com/2012/09/06/tokyo-istanbul-or-madrid-who-will-host-the-2020-summer-olympics/


Tokyo Japan is is the odds on favorite to host the 2020 Summer Olympics...another big plus in Karate's chance to be a part of the 2020 Olympics!

http://www.insidethegames.biz/bigre...is-qreadyq-for-inclusion-on-olympic-programme

Good article about the work being done to get into the Olympics and the other sports trying to earn a spot!


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## Gorilla (Nov 27, 2012)

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/summer-olympics-news-eight-sports-vying-spot-2020-151800328--oly.html

Article about the sports being considered!


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## Tez3 (Nov 28, 2012)

Karate is doing very well without any Olympic involvement, I don't know why it would be thought it needs help in marketing itself.


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## Tez3 (Nov 28, 2012)

Japan is not such a favourite to win.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/so20120912a1.html

Talk in Europe is that Istanbul could get it because they haven't had an Olympics before, both Tokyo and Madrid have plus they are spending a huge amount of money on things like new bridges etc and politically it would be beneficial. Otherwise the it is Spain because of the credit crunch and it really needing to host it. Tokyo not so much.


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## Gorilla (Nov 28, 2012)

It is really hard to predict who will win the bid...the favorite city has lost the last two bids!

The article you posted is on the fence...but it offers allot of food for thought!

Karate is big in both Spain and Turkey so all three would be good for Karate's inclusion in 2020...


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## Gorilla (Nov 28, 2012)

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...30895097061818&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf

Turkey got 3rd in female Kumite and 2nd in male kumite at the current WKF World Championships...

I am sure Turkey would want Karate included as it could help with the host country medal count...

Things are looking up for Karate and it inclusion in 2020...


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## Tez3 (Nov 28, 2012)

I really hope you are wrong and karate isn't included, yes I'm a karateka but I really don't want to see karate reduced to being seen as nothing more than points scoring, tippy tappy stuff, it's so much deeper than that.  It doesn't deserve to have done to it what's happened to TKD and Judo, made audience friendly and superficial. Karate is popular enough around the world that we don't need this 'boost' of ambitious parents trying to push their kids into the Dojos. I don't want to see some sort of Olympic karate as with TKD, there's a good many very good karate styles out there, good instructors and students who don't deserve this dumbing down. There's a lot of work being done on Bunkai and pragmatic karate, we do have good fighters some like a couple I know go into MMA (and still train kata), we have fighters to prefer the old fashioned full contact karate and we've had very noticable names in that sphere. We've also got well known SD instructors from karate, why do we need this so called cachet of being in the Olympics? The truth is we don't. 
Have a really good look at what happened to Judo and then see if karate int he Olympics is such a good move.


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## FullPotentialMA (Nov 28, 2012)

The late Sensei Hidetaka Nishiyama or Shotokan fame has worked for many years in trying to get Karate into the Olympics. In a way, I am glad the effort was unsuccessful.
While making karate an Olympic sport would certainly draw more participants to the art, it also would also focus training specifically on the sports aspects of karate. This would be to the detriment of all other aspects of this wonderful art / "do" / way of life.
Even on a purely technical aspect, inclusion in the Olympics can have very negative effects. You can observe what happened to Judo training in the last 30 years. So many effective techniques are now "banned", because they are deemed to be too dangerous or injury prone in a competition. That's sad.


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## Gorilla (Nov 28, 2012)

I am for Karate and TKD in the Olympics...

It is not a big deal if TKD IS pulled and Karate never makes it...we don't practice the art because it is in the Olympics and we don't just do the sport side...

I think that  the damage that has been done and the damage it will do is greatly exaggerated...teach and train however you want having it in the Olympics should not affect the individual or the art...

Sport is just one aspect...


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## Gorilla (Nov 28, 2012)

http://www.insidethegames.biz/latest/17307-exclusive-karate-favourite-for-inclusion-in-2020-olympics

British oddsmakers favoring Karate.....


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## Manny (Nov 28, 2012)

My two Mexican cents, that maybe are not worth a damn but any how here I am. I am a tkdoing and I am on it because firsth of all it's a wonderful martial art (as karate does), for me olimpic TKD has the sides of the coin, without a doubt olimpics has helped alot to TKD to be one of the best martial arts/sports around the world, I mean now TKD is recogniced in every part of the world and it's the number one martial art practiced around the globe, in the other hand (for me) TKD has lost something been sporticed, yes alo of electronic  devices (e-hogu,etc.) and the way the tkdoing train these days is about WTF style of sparring that is okey if you want to earn points and win a sport match.

I am an old square intructor that remain faitfull to the old way of doing TKD, for me TKD has many things besides WTF style sparring.

If tkd is pulled out of the olimpics nothing is going to happen, we have gain so much thanks olimpic TKD that now TKD is a big scaparate for any kind of competition (pommsae or kyorugi) but the olimpics.

I also like Karate-Do and if this martial art will be choosen I gladly will see th olipic matches it can be a good thing to the sport side of karate and can be detrimental for the martial art of karate but either way you don't loose so much.

Manny


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## SPX (Nov 28, 2012)

FullPotentialMA said:


> Even on a purely technical aspect, inclusion in the Olympics can have very negative effects. You can observe what happened to Judo training in the last 30 years. So many effective techniques are now "banned", because they are deemed to be too dangerous or injury prone in a competition. That's sad.



I don't think the banned techniques are that big of a deal.  What really sucks about Olympic judo is that you don't get any time to work on the ground.


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## SPX (Nov 28, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> I am for Karate and TKD in the Olympics...
> 
> It is not a big deal if TKD IS pulled and Karate never makes it...we don't practice the art because it is in the Olympics and we don't just do the sport side...
> 
> ...




My main concern is getting more people doing it and perhaps increasing the intensity of the training in your average class.  A lot of karate classes are pretty mellow.  But some of the Olympic TKD classes that are really competition oriented that I've visited are kind of intense, with the same focus on conditioning that you would find in any other sport and a real focus on performance.


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## Gorilla (Nov 29, 2012)

Our TKD training is very intense!  Not for the light hearted or the out of shape.  But not every session.  Sunday is the tough day.  Monday is go over what we did on Sunday and add to it.  Wednesday is always technique much like a pitcher  works on mechanics....train 5-6 days per week depending on cycle...also train in WKF sport karate...length of training depends on periodization!

Olympics will bring more elite athlete style training to Karate...because more $ will flow into the sport!


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## Tez3 (Nov 29, 2012)

SPX said:


> My main concern is getting more people doing it and perhaps increasing the intensity of the training in your average class. A lot of karate classes are pretty mellow. But some of the Olympic TKD classes that are really competition oriented that I've visited are kind of intense, with the same focus on conditioning that you would find in any other sport and a real focus on performance.



Karate classes are mellow? Really? perhaps the couple you've been to are but really you are judging karate by your experiences only, karate really isn't what you think it is! I think a few of you are assuming it's like TKD but it's not.
 I can't see the IOC allowing full contact no gloves or shin pads kumite in the Olympics and if it's not that then it's a poor imitation of karate.


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## Gorilla (Nov 29, 2012)

Tez3...I get your point...you would like everyone to do Karate the way that you do it...never going to happen...you will be able to continue implement Karate in your world the way that you would like it...
Karate in the Olympics won't stop that....WKF Karate is huge....it is already being done on a grand scale...they filled a stadium in France for the World Championships...the Olympics will not change anything for those who would like to do a more aggressive style of karate...we do a much more aggressive full contact style in the DoJo...we prefer that way also...and our Karate is not mellow...not as much cardio but never mellow!


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## Tez3 (Nov 29, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Tez3...I get your point...you would like everyone to do Karate the way that you do it...never going to happen...you will be able to continue implement Karate in your world the way that you would like it...
> Karate in the Olympics won't stop that....WKF Karate is huge....it is already being done on a grand scale...they filled a stadium in France for the World Championships...the Olympics will not change anything for those who would like to do a more aggressive style of karate...we do a much more aggressive full contact style in the DoJo...we prefer that way also...and our Karate is not mellow...not as much cardio but never mellow!



Wrong, I don't want everyone to do karate as I used to, I want people to understand that if they go to a couple of karate classes this isn't necessararily how karate is everywhere else. I'm arguing specifically against one person who assumes karate is a childrens 'sport' and that it needs to be in the Olympics to get adults in it. Now the obvious thing is, if there's going to be karate in the Olympics there already are plenty of adults in karate! You are saying what I'm saying that karate is already popular and isn't marginalised so while karate in the Olympics might be good for some, we don't need it in the Olympics because it's a dying style.
If karate is going into the Olympics it's because it's already a well known, popular sport practised by a good many adults. I really don't like seeing karate being put about as some sort of inferior kiddie pastime.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 29, 2012)

It seems to me that with TKD in the Olympics, we already have a perfect platform that could be expanded to allow other arts to compete. What if the rules were changed to allow this? For example, what if punching to the head and/or foot sweeps were allowed?


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## Tez3 (Nov 29, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> It seems to me that with TKD in the Olympics, we already have a perfect platform that could be expanded to allow other arts to compete. What if the rules were changed to allow this? For example, what if punching to the head and/or foot sweeps were allowed?



That's a thought. I tend to think though it would be kick boxing but that's not a bad thing. Many people like kick boxing and it does have roots in karate, TKD and TSD. could be good fun.


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## Manny (Nov 29, 2012)

Well I think that maybe and just maybe olimpics could unify striking martial arts like TKD,Karate,Kung Fu,etc. and under just one humbrela create one olimpic sport with one rule set that allow for example a tkd guy compete agains a karate guy or kung fu guy. The same can be aplied to Judo/Jujitsu and in this manner enrich the grapling arts.

Manny


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 29, 2012)

Manny said:


> Well I think that maybe and just maybe olimpics could unify striking martial arts like TKD,Karate,Kung Fu,etc. and under just one humbrela create one olimpic sport with one rule set that allow for example a tkd guy compete agains a karate guy or kung fu guy. The same can be aplied to Judo/Jujitsu and in this manner enrich the grapling arts.
> 
> Manny


I would agree with this, but it's too likely that it would turn into MMA again, since they would have to ban all the 'dirtier' things those arts practice for spectators and for safety reasons. Also would be really tough to have a set ruleset for it. How many points is a punch awarded versus a kick? If its 1 point vs 2 points, gives styles like TKD the advantage, if its 1vs1, its unfair because a solid kick is often harder to land, so it will give styles like TKD a disadvantage.

EDIT: misread manny's post and didnt see striking and grappling arts would be separate. Same statement, but I think the striking would turn into kickboxing instead of MMA, which is good, just not showing the diversity of the arts. However, I think it could work really well with grappling arts. I for one would love to see it.


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## Gorilla (Nov 29, 2012)

Agree...guess I just needed a little more clarification....definitely not a kiddie art or sport...good for kids but much more than that!





Tez3 said:


> Wrong, I don't want everyone to do karate as I used to, I want people to understand that if they go to a couple of karate classes this isn't necessararily how karate is everywhere else. I'm arguing specifically against one person who assumes karate is a childrens 'sport' and that it needs to be in the Olympics to get adults in it. Now the obvious thing is, if there's going to be karate in the Olympics there already are plenty of adults in karate! You are saying what I'm saying that karate is already popular and isn't marginalised so while karate in the Olympics might be good for some, we don't need it in the Olympics because it's a dying style.
> If karate is going into the Olympics it's because it's already a well known, popular sport practised by a good many adults. I really don't like seeing karate being put about as some sort of inferior kiddie pastime.


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## Tez3 (Nov 29, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Agree...guess I just needed a little more clarification....definitely not a kiddie art or sport...good for kids but much more than that!



If you go back and read SPX's post you will read his opinion, based on the couple of places he's _visited_, of karate, ie for women and kids etc. Also how he feels karate needs to be made popular so adults will train in it. I feel he has a totally skwed idea of karate and it's this I'm trying to get around. He's not being nasty or anything like that but his idea of karate needs to be changed I'm afraid.


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## SPX (Nov 29, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Tez3...I get your point...you would like everyone to do Karate the way that you do it...never going to happen...you will be able to continue implement Karate in your world the way that you would like it...
> Karate in the Olympics won't stop that....WKF Karate is huge....it is already being done on a grand scale...they filled a stadium in France for the World Championships...



Did they really fill the stadium?  I saw some clips of the prelims and there were a LOT of empty seats.  Then again, that was just the prelims.  




Gorilla said:


> the Olympics will not change anything for those who would like to do a  more aggressive style of karate...we do a much more aggressive full  contact style in the DoJo...we prefer that way also...and our Karate is  not mellow...not as much cardio but never mellow!



Full contact?  What's style do you practice?  

As for mellow, I was mostly referring to conditioning and only in reference to what I've seen--and experienced--at some Olympic TKD schools.  There's one Olympic-based dojang that I've dropped in on a few times and the cardio training there is unlike anything I've experienced in any other MA class. It's basically a class that never stops moving.  You have about 30 to 45 minutes of straight conditioning at the beginning--running, push ups, jumping rope, duck walking, etc--and then move into kicking drills where, again, it's just constant motion.  Then at the end, it's another 20 minutes of straight conditioning exercises.

On Saturdays during the summer he takes you out to a high school and makes you run laps around the track . . . and then an hour of sparring.

I think that if Olympic Karate becomes a thing, then we'll see a greater focus on cardio and strength training, just like you see in other sports.


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## SPX (Nov 29, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> It seems to me that with TKD in the Olympics, we already have a perfect platform that could be expanded to allow other arts to compete. What if the rules were changed to allow this? For example, what if punching to the head and/or foot sweeps were allowed?



That would be sweet.  It basically sounds like ITF sparring rules + sweeps.


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## Tez3 (Nov 29, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khtx5elzH4o

Will the Olympics allow no headguards, shinpads and gloves?


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## SPX (Nov 29, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Karate classes are mellow? Really? perhaps the couple you've been to are but really you are judging karate by your experiences only, karate really isn't what you think it is!



I would argue that karate is a lot of different things to a lot of different people.  And there are a lot of different styles and a lot of different instructors who run their classes a lot of different ways.  There is no one single thing that is "karate."

What I said is, "A lot of karate classes are mellow."  And that is true.  A lot are.

I'm actually shooting a little 3ish minute documentary for a class I'm taking in school about a local Shotokan school.  With the exception of the Friday night competition/fighting class, I think their classes are indeed pretty mellow.  And I think that a lot of other karate classes are run the same way.

I'll upload the video when I get done with it.  Maybe that will help clarify things.




Tez3 said:


> I can't see the IOC allowing full contact no gloves or shin pads kumite in the Olympics and if it's not that then it's a poor imitation of karate.



What about all the Shotokan schools who have, as a matter of tradition, utilized only no-contact or light-contact forms of sparring for decades?


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## Manny (Nov 29, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khtx5elzH4o
> 
> Will the Olympics allow no headguards, shinpads and gloves?



I higly rfespect the people who do and COMPETE in Kyokusin, this style of karate is very rough and I believe the IOC will not allow this kind of heavy contact without the use of protective gear, one thing is wining and other thing is to preserve the integrity of the competitor, in competition one's gola is to overcome the other guy not to beat him to death.

Manny


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## Gorilla (Nov 29, 2012)

SPX....we do Shotokan...we do full contact to the body...controlled to the head with the punching...

It has been a problem in WKF/PKF/NKF Karate for us as we get penalized for body kicks for excessive contact...that is how my son lost his third fight a the Pan Ams he knocked the guy down with the back kick...medic had to be called..instead of getting two points he got a penalty and it cost him the match..not complaining part of the game...


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## Gorilla (Nov 29, 2012)

Love Kyokusin....but it is not going to the Olympics...not up for consideration...


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## SPX (Nov 29, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> SPX....we do Shotokan...we do full contact to the body...controlled to the head with the punching...
> 
> It has been a problem in WKF/PKF/NKF Karate for us as we get penalized for body kicks for excessive contact...that is how my son lost his third fight a the Pan Ams he knocked the guy down with the back kick...medic had to be called..instead of getting two points he got a penalty and it cost him the match..not complaining part of the game...



I'm sure you would agree that full contact sparring (even just to the body) is unusual for a Shoto school.  

If that's how you guys roll, then that sounds pretty good.  Though personally, I'm not overly interested in training that way.  More of medium contact kind of guy.

"Bruises not breaks" is my motto.


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## Gorilla (Nov 29, 2012)

SPX...I have been affiliated with highly motivated Shotokan Schools the sparring is very rough and remember we train at hard core sports schools in both TKD and Shotokan...

We train with Olympians, National Team coaches and World Ranked fighters on a regular basis!

There are allot of hard core school if you know what you are looking for!

To much generalization goes on on the net!


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## SPX (Nov 29, 2012)

I'm not saying they don't exist . . . I'm saying they are the exception.  

I see you're also from the US.  And I assume you would agree that if you polled all karate schools around the country that teach Shotokan that more than 50% limit their contact level 
fairly strictly when sparring.

Funakoshi himself advocated it.

Interestingly enough, I just ran across this thread where the same thing was discussed.  Apparently I commented in it, though I'm not sure I remember doing so.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...hotokan-folks-adding-full-contact-to-Shotokan


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## SPX (Nov 29, 2012)

Also, we're fairly close to each other, so if you could point me toward one of these hard core schools in the Salt Lake City area I would be appreciative.


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## Gorilla (Nov 30, 2012)

Don't know of any in Salt Lake City...but if you are in Las Vegas PM me and you can come buy and train! With the Tkd team it is open...the Karate team is not!


When I think about it allot is probably the wrong word.  So I will be more accurate...you can find hard core trainig... Most of the schools only have elements of it...mostly in the form of competion teams...I assumed that you knew how it worked...


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## SPX (Nov 30, 2012)

Well that's kind of been what I've been trying to get at this whole time.  That yes, there are schools like that out there, but they are not really the norm when you look at the total karate landscape across the country.

Most of the karate schools around here are not competition focused.  That's what I've been looking for--a karate school with a strong competitive element--but the only ones I have found pretty much only have kids that actually want to compete.  

There is a school a little to the north that is VERY competitive, but it's like a different kind of competition.  They are really into the NASKA/NBL kind of thing.  Go watch a class and you'll see a bunch of kids doing modified kata and spinning glow-in-the-dark bo staffs around.

There is one guy here locally who runs a JKA dojo and he does train students to compete, but again, he doesn't have many adult students and has told me that those he does have aren't very interested in fighting or competition.

There is a Shotokan dojo--the same dojo that I've mentioned a few times already--that has one guy who is super competitive and he teaches a class one day a week that is focused on fighting and competition.  But every other night, it's a much more relaxed, no-contact-kumite, low-impact kind of thing.  It's really sort of the opposite situation than with a lot of the other dojos.  Instead of being composed of a bunch of kids, it's mostly composed of older guys whose fighting days are in the past.  I will be going to the "fighting" class tomorrow, though.  The impression I've gotten is that if the instructor who teaches that class was the head instructor and all their classes were that way, then it would be exactly what I'm looking for.  But that unfortunately is not the situation.  

Then there's the wado-ryu dojo.  I spent two months there before hurting my should and dropping out to let that rehab.  That took about six months.  Those guys are pretty intense in their attitude and the sparring, while not full contact, can get a little rough for sure.  But they are not really competition focused.  They used to be . . . but not anymore.  There are shades of the same situation that you find at the Shotokan dojo, that is, old lions that are kind of toning it down as they age.  I do think those guys are pretty bad ***, though.  I may end up going back.  

Or, if I can make sure no one will get upset about it, train primarily at the wado school, but make an arrangement to drop in on the competition class on Fridays with the Shotokan guys.

We'll see.  It sucks not being able to just find a place that does exactly what I want, though.


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## Tez3 (Nov 30, 2012)

As Gorilla said too much generalisation, Shotokan is known as a 'hard' style. The videos I linked to aren't particularly hard _just normal full contact _on par with Muay Thai and kickboxing both very popular over here. No one is trying to destroy anyone, it's far from rough thats brawling, the full contact kumite is very controlled. Boxing and MMA are much more hardcore. There's plenty of places doing full contact, there's plenty of places who don't. What there is out there is choice.


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## SPX (Nov 30, 2012)

Well I won't go into the meaning of "hard" and "soft" styles, but I actually think that Gorilla and I are now in agreement on the situation that we understand what each other is talking about.

All I'm saying is don't be surprised when you walk into a Shotokan dojo and the sparring looks like this (yes, even with the adults):










But by acknowledging that, that doesn't mean that I don't also understand that this exists:



















(As a matter of fact, I own the "Art of War" DVD.  It's one of the main things that got me interested in Shotokan in the first place.)


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## Tez3 (Nov 30, 2012)

SPX don't assume what is common in America is common around the world and because it's the Olympics we are discussing it very much matters what karate is in other countries.


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## Gorilla (Nov 30, 2012)

SPX..you could find all three of those things happening in our school depending on the level that you are at...our comp team trains trains like the third video...our comp team he headed by our Sensei who is a 6 time National Team member NKF have another past Sr/JR National team member that trains with us...current JR National team member and several National medalists..allot of international exp...


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## Manny (Nov 30, 2012)

SPX said:


> I'm sure you would agree that full contact sparring (even just to the body) is unusual for a Shoto school.
> 
> If that's how you guys roll, then that sounds pretty good.  Though personally, I'm not overly interested in training that way.  More of medium contact kind of guy.
> 
> ...




My motto to. In TKD I have recieved very heavy contact. a broke noose, broke theet,a nice K.O. and those were the day the the only thing we used was shin pads and no more.

Today the new students does not like full contact or at least medium/heavy contact but as you may know if you practice contact sport you will have bruisses and hard blows.

Manny


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## SPX (Nov 30, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> SPX don't assume what is common in America is common around the world and because it's the Olympics we are discussing it very much matters what karate is in other countries.



Well I have acknowledged earlier in the thread that from what I've heard the situation is a little different in Europe.  Although I've heard, on forums just like this one, that there is plenty of the same stuff going on all around the world, in America, in Europe, even in Japan. . .


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## SPX (Nov 30, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> SPX..you could find all three of those things happening in our school depending on the level that you are at...our comp team trains trains like the third video...our comp team he headed by our Sensei who is a 6 time National Team member NKF have another past Sr/JR National team member that trains with us...current JR National team member and several National medalists..allot of international exp...



Sounds like a good school.  Unfortunately, Vegas is bit of a far drive for me.


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## SPX (Nov 30, 2012)

Manny said:


> My motto to. In TKD I have recieved very heavy contact. a broke noose, broke theet,a nice K.O. and those were the day the the only thing we used was shin pads and no more.
> 
> Today the new students does not like full contact or at least medium/heavy contact but as you may know if you practice contact sport you will have bruisses and hard blows.
> 
> Manny



Yeah, I have a fear of getting injured, especially since I don't have health insurance.  Both financially, and from a standpoint that injuries can linger for the rest of your life, I'd rather just avoid them.


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## SPX (Dec 1, 2012)

So a little update on what we were talking about earlier. . .

I went to the sparring/fighting class at the Shotokan school tonight.  I sparred with the instructor and he whooped my ***.  I thought it was awesome.  I wish that class wasn't just one night a week or else I'd be totally sold.

I'm a terrible fighter.


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## Gorilla (Dec 1, 2012)

SPX said:


> So a little update on what we were talking about earlier. . .
> 
> I went to the sparring/fighting class at the Shotokan school tonight.  I sparred with the instructor and he whooped my ***.  I thought it was awesome.  I wish that class wasn't just one night a week or else I'd be totally sold.
> 
> I'm a terrible fighter.




I admire your self awareness and ability to critique yourself.  Martial Artisits who can do that will always get better!


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## SPX (Dec 1, 2012)

Well, you know, it is what it is.

That's actually one of the main reasons I've been looking for a competition oriented school, to gain a better understanding of not only the mechanics of how to do techniques, but how to use them against a real attacker.  So I'm looking for more sparring, less kata.


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## Gorilla (Dec 2, 2012)

Kata is a part of sparing training...we do it every Wednesday...the focus and emphasis on technique are important.


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## Tez3 (Dec 2, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Kata is a part of sparing training...we do it every Wednesday...the focus and emphasis on technique are important.



Absolutely! Kata is self defence, not sure what peole think it's for otherwise. You can spar well of course without kata but with kata you do it even better and why wouldn't you want to be the best you can!

http://www.goju-karate.co.uk/index.php?page=shodan-neil-grove

Neil still practices kata btw.


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## Kframe (Dec 2, 2012)

Im not sure why karate people are excited to see karate in the Olympics? Dont you guys see what it did to TKD? It took a great Self defense martial art, and turned it into martial sport.  Why would you want your fine art watered down and diluted? The only thing the Olympics will bring karate is more membership and money, which is good till you find your no longer a martial art but martial sport.. 

Now before you go say, find the ITF TKD, well guess what, there is no ITF TKD in my state, they are not the same size or have the influence of WTF. So please dont let karate get diluted and watered down like TKD did.


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## SPX (Dec 2, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Kata is a part of sparing training...we do it every Wednesday...the focus and emphasis on technique are important.



I said less kata, not no kata.

This school, right now, is basically 5 days a week on kata and basics, one day a week on sparring.


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## Gorilla (Dec 2, 2012)

SPX said:


> I said less kata, not no kata.
> 
> This school, right now, is basically 5 days a week on kata and basics, one day a week on sparring.



Yeah that's to lopsided we are the opposite.


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## Gorilla (Dec 2, 2012)

You and I are on the opposite ends of the fence on this one...the Olympics was an add for TKD...people still practice all aspects of TKD as a Martial Art!...we do both WTF Tkd and WKF/NKF Karate...it will not hurt Karate it will be a positive add!!!!



Kframe said:


> Im not sure why karate people are excited to see karate in the Olympics? Dont you guys see what it did to TKD? It took a great Self defense martial art, and turned it into martial sport.  Why would you want your fine art watered down and diluted? The only thing the Olympics will bring karate is more membership and money, which is good till you find your no longer a martial art but martial sport..
> 
> Now before you go say, find the ITF TKD, well guess what, there is no ITF TKD in my state, they are not the same size or have the influence of WTF. So please dont let karate get diluted and watered down like TKD did.


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## Tez3 (Dec 3, 2012)

Kframe said:


> Im not sure why karate people are excited to see karate in the Olympics? Dont you guys see what it did to TKD? It took a great Self defense martial art, and turned it into martial sport. Why would you want your fine art watered down and diluted? The only thing the Olympics will bring karate is more membership and money, which is good till you find your no longer a martial art but martial sport..
> 
> Now before you go say, find the ITF TKD, well guess what, there is no ITF TKD in my state, they are not the same size or have the influence of WTF. So please dont let karate get diluted and watered down like TKD did.



That's exactly how I feel.


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## SPX (Dec 3, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Yeah that's to lopsided we are the opposite.



I'd even be cool with doing 2 and 2.

2 days a week on kata and basics, 2 days a week on sparring.

But pretty much all the schools that I've ever been a part of (whether TKD or karate) have spent almost all their time on things like line drills, kata, step-sparring, etc, with only a little time devoted to actual sparring against a live, dynamic attacker.  And as a result, I'm not as good as I think I otherwise would've been if that hadn't been the case.

So now I'm trying to find a situation in which the priorities are a little different.


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## Manny (Dec 3, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> You and I are on the opposite ends of the fence on this one...the Olympics was an add for TKD...people still practice all aspects of TKD as a Martial Art!...we do both WTF Tkd and WKF/NKF Karate...it will not hurt Karate it will be a positive add!!!!



I am an old school TKdoing, yes Sport/Olimpic TKD has helped alot to enrole more people in the dojangs most of them kids who want to be the next champion, and believe TKD is one of the nices sports for a child to practice, TKD classes teach thos children a lot of values like respect,loyalti,good maners,etc,etc.

Well I must tell you that I don't like olimpic TKD at all, yes I see iot at the olimpics and maybe for a couple of tornaments local here in my town, in fact I've been a central and chair judge in a few tornaments but that's all. 

Right now I have 6 white belts, a marroon belt and a blue belt and the class I teach them is TKD, the martial art of TKD, I teach them basics, kicking drills some hand techs, self defense, one steps,poomsae (kata) and yes we do light to medium contact sparring and definetivaly sometimes full contact with all the safety gear and yes we use the KKW/WTF sparring rules set (no hand tech to the head/face) but all our kicks and punches are well execuyed and done, we don't pull the  punch or the kick, so where I want to go? Simply there are many TKD dojangs and classes that teach TKD as a whole not only a WTF/Sparring only.

So I don't think olimpics has damage the TKD as a MA, Olimpic TKD is nothing but a full contact sport where one can win with a well TKO or scoring points, that's all about olimpic TKD, in the other Hand TKD is more than sparring believe me.

Manny


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## Kframe (Dec 3, 2012)

Manny, thanks for the good post, but sir i have one observation i would love to get yours and others opinion on. You will fight(ie self defense) the way you train. If you train and sparr with out doing hand techs to the head, you will not do them in a fight for your life. Why do you handicap your self and your students by not giving them the full experiance? If all you ever practice is kicks and punches below the neck, and never any throws locks and sweeps in a sparring situation against a live opponent, how can you be so sure you will be able to use it in a real fight?  

Its not the techniques that are handicapping TKD as a martial art, its the rules. Its a unavoidable and unbreakable rule, you will fight like you train. Train to attack all targets using all techniques and youll do that in a fight. Train to avoid techs and targets and thats exactly what you will do.  (insert video here of TKD and Karate people fighting with there hands at there arses)


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## Jaeimseu (Dec 3, 2012)

Kframe said:


> Manny, thanks for the good post, but sir i have one observation i would love to get yours and others opinion on. You will fight(ie self defense) the way you train. If you train and sparr with out doing hand techs to the head, you will not do them in a fight for your life. Why do you handicap your self and your students by not giving them the full experiance? If all you ever practice is kicks and punches below the neck, and never any throws locks and sweeps in a sparring situation against a live opponent, how can you be so sure you will be able to use it in a real fight?
> 
> Its not the techniques that are handicapping TKD as a martial art, its the rules. Its a unavoidable and unbreakable rule, you will fight like you train. Train to attack all targets using all techniques and youll do that in a fight. Train to avoid techs and targets and thats exactly what you will do.  (insert video here of TKD and Karate people fighting with there hands at there arses)



Do you train with full contact strikes to all targets using all the techniques in your system against a live resisting partner?


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## Kframe (Dec 3, 2012)

Jaeimseu, Yes and no. Full contact yes, but not full power. When we heavy spar it tops out at around 75-80%. We are expected to use every single tech we have been shown.

Again, i ask, if you never practice your techniques against a live resisting opponent, how can you be sure they work? When you do things with a compliant uke, it is not a reflection of how it will be done in a fight. In fights, that pretty lock or strike combo or take down will look ugly and disgusting, but if you practice it with live resistance,  youll be able to apply the fundamentals of the technique despite the resistance, and despite it looking ugly and gross.


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## Manny (Dec 3, 2012)

Kframe said:


> Manny, thanks for the good post, but sir i have one observation i would love to get yours and others opinion on. You will fight(ie self defense) the way you train. If you train and sparr with out doing hand techs to the head, you will not do them in a fight for your life. Why do you handicap your self and your students by not giving them the full experiance? If all you ever practice is kicks and punches below the neck, and never any throws locks and sweeps in a sparring situation against a live opponent, how can you be so sure you will be able to use it in a real fight?
> 
> 
> Its not the techniques that are handicapping TKD as a martial art, its the rules. Its a unavoidable and unbreakable rule, you will fight like you train. Train to attack all targets using all techniques and youll do that in a fight. Train to avoid techs and targets and thats exactly what you will do.  (insert video here of TKD and Karate people fighting with there hands at there arses)



Thank you for asking me!!  One thing is to do sparring inside the dojang and other thing is defending ourselves on the streets, that's why I focus alot on self defense techs. The self defense techs I teach have amoung other things: grabs, take downs, sweeps,arm bars, locks (shoulder,elbow,wrist and fingers too) some trows (not many Iam not a judoka),punches (to the head/face/neck), palm strikes, finger strikes (eyes), elbows,knees,kicks offcourse.

As you may see I teach not only kicking but some aikido techs,some judo techs and some kenpo techs.

You must realize that my self defense is controled, I can not blow a knee cap or dislocate an elbow for example to my srudents or partners, I can not make a concusion using an elbow to the temple, I can not visiusly crush a windpipe, I don't have to kill my students or partners, however I can be a little rough without compromising life.

I have not yet a single martial rts dojo or academy where people hurt so badly the others, yes I have seen accidentes like broken ribs for example for too heavy contact, I experimented on my a well knock out and been huirts before without compromising my life.

I have not seen till these days a sparring match inside a dojo where a person is killed.

Sorry if I went to long. Can I have the ability to crush a windpipe with a karate chop? Yes, can I popo out an efe with a spear hand? you bet, can I drop a guy with a couple of solid low kicks to the tights? I think I can do it for sure!! Can I break an elbow with an arm bar offcourse my friend.

And to finish this.... WTF Sparring or WUKO Sparring does not allow the above mentioned for security sake!

Self defense is a big part inside my class.

Manny


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## Jaeimseu (Dec 3, 2012)

Kframe said:


> Jaeimseu, Yes and no. Full contact yes, but not full power. When we heavy spar it tops out at around 75-80%. We are expected to use every single tech we have been shown.
> 
> Again, i ask, if you never practice your techniques against a live resisting opponent, how can you be sure they work? When you do things with a compliant uke, it is not a reflection of how it will be done in a fight. In fights, that pretty lock or strike combo or take down will look ugly and disgusting, but if you practice it with live resistance,  youll be able to apply the fundamentals of the technique despite the resistance, and despite it looking ugly and gross.



You throw strikes to vital targets at 80% power?

I totally agree that without a live resisting opponent your training will be less effective (assuming the purpose of your training is fighting). WTF players do this. They don't punch the face because the rules prohibit face punches. It's not designed to simulate a real fight. Don't confuse one aspect of the art with the whole art. Taekwondo players make up a very small percentage of all taekwondoin.


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## Gorilla (Dec 3, 2012)

Tkd and Karate fighters fight based on the rule set....

NONE!!!! Of the elite athletes think that they are doing self defense when they compete...

Self defense is a completely different thing!


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## Gorilla (Feb 13, 2013)

http://www.insidethegames.biz/blogs...st-foot-forward-in-race-for-the-2020-olympics

Interesting article and now with wrestling out of the Olympics.  I think that Karate has a real shot in 2020!


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## chinto (Feb 13, 2013)

I find that I am hoping that Karate is not made an olympic sport.  I think it will lead to problems and political games and end up damaging the art badly! that is my opinion, and you may disagree if you wish. I think that the olympic inclusion of TKD had damaged TKD badly. again you may disagree, to each his own.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 14, 2013)

chinto said:


> I find that I am hoping that Karate is not made an olympic sport.  I think it will lead to problems and political games and end up damaging the art badly! that is my opinion, and you may disagree if you wish. I think that the olympic inclusion of TKD had damaged TKD badly. again you may disagree, to each his own.



On the other hand, one of the things that karate based systems really struggle with is the demands of mastering so many disparate skills.  With TKD, you have poomse, basics, one steps, sparring, breaking, self defense sequences, and all of the esoteric things on top of that.  Many of these aspects don't work well together.  For TKD, Olympic style sparring gives the art focus.  It allows elite levels of competition in one aspect.  It brings people from all over the world together to enjoy the art.  

For purists, the focus on sparring probably drives them nuts, but from the outside looking in, I think it probably makes TKD a more attractive martial art.  

For karate, I have no idea how it would look in the Olympics.  Any kind of sparring sort of defeats the purpose, especially if you start allowing the full range of applications in the kata for competition.  Karate has a focus, IMO, that is kata.  It would be a big change for many styles of karate to change their focus to sparring.  Perhaps JKA style sparring rules would mesh with the Olympics format, but this would only alienate certain styles of karate.  I can't see traditional Goju or Uechi Ryu competing in that.  

After further though, I also don't think modifying TKD sparring rules would work in the end.  If you allowed punches to the head and maybe some sweeps, we've simply made a more eclectic form of kickboxing.  

Maybe kickboxing should be an Olympic sport?  Broaden the rules to allow thai boxing strikes.  Throw in some sweeps.  Don't call it karate though...


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## Gorilla (Feb 16, 2013)

WKF KARATE will be in the Olympics Kumite no Kata!


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## Curlykarateka (Mar 11, 2013)

Much as I think sport karate is kinda watered down, I would be prepared to sink to that level for the oppurtunity to represent my country.


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