# New light bulb...only 50 dollars...



## billc (Mar 10, 2012)

Well, the government is in the business of making light bulbs, by way of a 10 million dollar prize from tax dollars.  The result is, as we learned from men in black,''...everything we've come to expect from a lifetime of government..."  

http://michellemalkin.com/2012/03/09/government-subsidized-green-affordable-bulb/



> Energy Secretary Steven Chu said the prize would spur industry to offer the costly bulbs, known as LEDs, at prices &#8220;affordable for American families.&#8221; There was also a &#8220;Buy America&#8221; component. Portions of the bulb would have to be made in the United States.
> Now the winning bulb is on the market.
> *The price is $50*.
> Retailers said the bulb, made by Philips, is likely to be too pricey to have broad appeal. Similar LED bulbs are less than half the cost.
> ...




I repeat...



> *The price is $50*.
> Retailers said the bulb, made by Philips, is likely to be too pricey to have broad appeal. Similar LED bulbs are less than half the cost.



How do you get people to buy a 50 dollar light bulb, well the way the government usually gets people to do things, you tax or ban the alternative out of existence...



> Energy legislation signed by President George W. Bush in 2007 introduced a ban on inefficient incandescent light bulbs, covering traditional 100-watt bulbs this year. Sales of traditional 75-watt incandescents will be prohibited next year, and 60-watt incandescents will go after that.



This is the same Chu who wants Amercian gas prices at the same level as Europe, 8-10 dollars a gallon.

I can't wait till they control everyone's healthcare...


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## Steve (Mar 10, 2012)

Leds are great.  Low energy low heat and they last about forever.  Like 50k hours. I  haven't paid $50 for one but I think $25 is worth it. 

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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 10, 2012)

I have a house full of CF's. Love em. But my lizard likes the heat an incandescent gives off...needs it in fact to survive.

I'm all for progress, and LED is that, but explain to a single mom struggling on min wage part time that instead of $10 for a house full of bulbs, she'll have to choose between eating that month and buying 2 LED bulbs.  Somehow I suspect more people living in the dark.


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## Steve (Mar 10, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I have a house full of CF's. Love em. But my lizard likes the heat an incandescent gives off...needs it in fact to survive.
> 
> I'm all for progress, and LED is that, but explain to a single mom struggling on min wage part time that instead of $10 for a house full of bulbs, she'll have to choose between eating that month and buying 2 LED bulbs.  Somehow I suspect more people living in the dark.



Well, swapping out a whole house would be tough, but one bulb at a time is doable.  As our bulbs burn out, we are replacing them with LEDs.  Working out well, and not to tough on the budget.  And as I said, we consider it an investment, because they last so long that it's unlikely we will ever have to replace them.


Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 10, 2012)

With us buying a house, we're looking to do what we can to minimize energy costs, so the LED and CF's are options.  But I'd be hard pressed to replace more than 1-2 bulbs a month to be honest.


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## billc (Mar 10, 2012)

> Somehow I suspect more people living in the dark.



As the Joker said, "It's all part of the plan..."


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## Cryozombie (Mar 10, 2012)

Steve said:


> Well, swapping out a whole house would be tough, but one bulb at a time is doable.



For you.  

Doesn't mean it is for everyone.  Like Bob said, a single mom struggling on min wage part time will have to choose between eating that month and  buying 2 LED bulbs...


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## billc (Mar 10, 2012)

In the future it will be eating, buying LED lightbulbs or arrest for violations of environmental laws governing the lighting of ones home...especially if she buys black alley incandescent bulbs...


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## Sukerkin (Mar 10, 2012)

It may yet come to pass that power companies will hand these things out as sweeteners to PR their Green credentials.  They did over here with CFL's ... and they are a waste of time.  Not yet convinced by LED's light quality either (too blue by far for my eyes (my blue/red balance was screwed up by childhood measles)) but I am sure a spread-spectrum one will be along soon.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 10, 2012)

By the way, anything that reduces the shameful waste that is oil consumption for energy production or mobility is a good thing.  

Single-mums-on-minimum-wage notwithstanding, once the oil runs out then so does time for a lot of the human race.  Current population is 6-7 billion souls.  'Green' agriculture (that done without fertiliser for which oil is necessary) can support 1.5 Billion ... not a hard sum to do that one.


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## Steve (Mar 10, 2012)

Cryozombie said:


> For you.
> 
> Doesn't mean it is for everyone.  Like Bob said, a single mom struggling on min wage part time will have to choose between eating that month and  buying 2 LED bulbs...



And?  


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## jks9199 (Mar 10, 2012)

Can't use LED lights or compact florescent bulbs on fixtures with dimmer switches.  And you need to redesign the bulb or the socket for 3 way lights.  That's a problem...


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## Sukerkin (Mar 10, 2012)

Whilst true, the engineer in me gives a resounding "And?" when it comes to the dimmer switch 'issue'.  Maybe it's a cultural thing between our countries but in all my life I have been in one house that had dimmer switches.  I just don't see it as a problem and if demand is there for dimmable non-incandescents then we'll figure out a way to do it (can't really see a way via messing with the voltage to the unit so maybe with filters?).

Done a quick search for some details on dimming LED's:

http://www.led-lightbulbs.co.uk/main.asp?sitepages=Tech-Dimming-LEDs


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## granfire (Mar 10, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Can't use LED lights or compact florescent bulbs on fixtures with dimmer switches.  And you need to redesign the bulb or the socket for 3 way lights.  That's a problem...



never had a 3-way before a couple of years ago...
and there is an old fashioned way to do that, too: add lights. it's been done on flashlights these days.


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## Steve (Mar 10, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Can't use LED lights or compact florescent bulbs on fixtures with dimmer switches.  And you need to redesign the bulb or the socket for 3 way lights.  That's a problem...



LEDs are fine with a dimmer.  Use them all the time on a broadcast studio set.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 10, 2012)

Ive never tried the leds but i hate the CFL bulbs they are not bright enough take too much time to light up when i hit the switch. And they cost too much and never last as long as they claim.  Plus my reptiles like the heat the regular bulbs put off


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## Steve (Mar 10, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Ive never tried the leds but i hate the CFL bulbs they are not bright enough take too much time to light up when i hit the switch. And they cost too much and never last as long as they claim.  Plus my reptiles like the heat the regular bulbs put off


That's another advantage of LED over compact fluorescent.  They are all the way on right away, much like incandescent, tungsten or halogen.  

Sukerkin, not a real answer right now, but on set we use gels to alter the temperature of the light.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_gel  We have only recently been able to purchase enough LED lights to light an entire set, but they work really well with other types if you correct the color.

At some point, some smart person will think to change the color of the bulb casing so that the LED lights are corrected to put out a warmer white.  But until then, you're absolutely right that the color is pretty blue.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 10, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Ive never tried the leds but i hate the CFL bulbs they are not bright enough take too much time to light up when i hit the switch. And they cost too much and never last as long as they claim.  Plus my reptiles like the heat the regular bulbs put off



CF's come in 4 different color temps.  Cheap ones are pretty dim/yellowredish.  I only buy the ones that are true daylight. 5000+k temp.  I've used them for stock art and video work no problem.

http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...splay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051
Basically these.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 11, 2012)

Steve said:


> And?



Oh, I see how it is.  "I can do it, so **** everyone else they should have to as well."


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## ballen0351 (Mar 11, 2012)

Yeah i buy the same ones the natural daylight flavor but to me they are just not as bright esp outside lights they dont cast the light as far.
Also if its cold outside they take even longer to light up.  I also heard they have mecury in them so if true im not sure how thats better for the enviroment when i throw them away.


Bob Hubbard said:


> CF's come in 4 different color temps.  Cheap ones are pretty dim/yellowredish.  I only buy the ones that are true daylight. 5000+k temp.  I've used them for stock art and video work no problem.
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...splay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051
> Basically these.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 11, 2012)

Id try leds i have led flashlight for work it works well but im not paying that much for a bulb.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 11, 2012)

Cryozombie said:


> Oh, I see how it is.  "I can do it, so **** everyone else they should have to as well."



I thought that was the American Way, Cryo?  Are you some kind of Commie ?


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## Sukerkin (Mar 11, 2012)

Some technical details with a little price information in there too:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/will-led-light-bulbs-best-cfls-and-incandescents

Those prices do seem very high.  I did a little browsing for the prices of LED house lighting and it seemed to be in the £10 - £15 range.

Here's an article looking at the price balancing act:

http://eartheasy.com/live_energyeff_lighting.htm


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## Steve (Mar 11, 2012)

Cryozombie said:


> Oh, I see how it is.  "I can do it, so **** everyone else they should have to as well."


No, I'm asking you what your point is, unless..  is it to be snide?


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## Cryozombie (Mar 11, 2012)

No, that's my point... you came across to me as saying ""I can do it, so **** everyone else they should have to as well."  If that isn't your intention, fine, but it's certainly how it read to me.


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## Steve (Mar 11, 2012)

it sounds to me like you are inventing subtext to make a questionable point.  but if you want to discuss what I actually write, I'm fine with it.

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## Carol (Mar 12, 2012)

Personally I'm not fond of the CFL bulbs, but I'm about to try my first LED bulb.  Its going in the ceiling light in the hallway.  For me, the extra cost is worth not wrangling on a ladder a couple of times a year.


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## Steve (Mar 12, 2012)

Okay.  I have access to an actual keyboard now, and I wanted to go back and try to figure out where the misunderstanding occurred.  I said this:





Steve said:


> Well, swapping out a whole house would be tough, but one bulb at a time is doable.  As our bulbs burn out, we are replacing them with LEDs.  Working out well, and not to tough on the budget.  And as I said, we consider it an investment, because they last so long that it's unlikely we will ever have to replace them.


And you said this:


Cryozombie said:


> For you.
> 
> Doesn't mean it is for everyone.  Like Bob said, a single mom struggling on min wage part time will have to choose between eating that month and  buying 2 LED bulbs...



The straw man that you're putting on me is that I am suggesting that everyone be forced to switch.  I'm not, and I don't have any idea where you got that impression.   

A flood lamp bulb is about $25 at costco, and I currently use CFLs.  As they burn out, we replace them, so we're not talking about buying more than one at a time.  

I am curious, though.  While abject poverty certainly exists in our country, there aren't too many people (single moms included) who can't afford $25 every 6000 or so hours, when a CFL burns out.  That's about 250 days if the bulb is on all day, every day, or about $1 every 10 days.  Are there families where just over a dollar a paycheck is THAT important?  Yeah.  Are most families cutting it so close?  No.  

This is, however, about priorities, and I would suggest that a family on a shoestring budget is probably not giving a thought to what kind of bulb they're using.  And I'm not saying that they should.     So, if you're talking about a poor person who can't afford it, yeah.  There are families who cannot, but we're not talking about most people.  We're talking about the poorest people in our country.  

Frankly, this entire line of reasoning, that no one should because not everyone can, is pretty stupid.  We're talking about light bulbs.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 12, 2012)

Steve said:


> Okay.  I have access to an actual keyboard now, and I wanted to go back and try to figure out where the misunderstanding occurred.  I said this:
> And you said this:
> 
> 
> ...



Ok.  You are right.  Instead of 1.00 a bulb, people should be able to spend 50 for one instead.  Ramen is only 15 cents a package after all.  Here's my problem with the idea you forwarded that this "should be doable".  I have lived, in the past, where having $50.00 left after paying for my house while working 2 jobs was a luxury, my friends providing me real meals while i lived on Mac and Cheese and Ramen trying to get ahead.  I can imagine what a hardship taking 1.00 bulbs off the shelf and replacing them with 50.00 ones exclusively can be, even if you do not... it makes me angry to think of those times, and then think someone is saying "oh come on, you can do it"... when they clearly have no idea what it would truly cost someone to be put in that position.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 12, 2012)

Steve,
  The economics over time in switching to CF or LED are apparent.

Incandescent $1 1,000 to 2,000 hours.   CPH .0005

CF $5 about 10,000 hours  CPH .0005

Halogen $5 about 4,000 to 8,000 hours  CPH .0006

LED $25-50 about 30,000 to 50,000 hours. CPH .0008-.001

LED's at base cost are more, even when adjusted for time.  Where you save is adding in the electric savings in reducing 100w down to 19w for equivalent lighting.

Over time, it adds big savings.

The problem is the up front costs. With a $1 bulb it's an 'oh crap, better go pick up a 4pk'.  At $25, it's 'oh ****' unless you planned ahead, budgeted for it, put some cash on the side and was able to buy on sale.  Most people will not think that far ahead.


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## Carol (Mar 12, 2012)

For me, when I was really broke, the issue wasn't just that I was really broke.  I was really broke and had debt on a credit card with a punitively high interest rate.  I was getting whacked with these nasty finance charges, month after month.  There are basically only two ways out of that jail -- go bankrupt, or pay it off.  I chose the latter.  Any extra dime I had went to paying that damn card off.

True, $25 over x amount of time isn't that much.  The trouble is, my credit card was full of $X charges over Y amount of time for purchases I made trying to survive when I was unemployed or underemployed.  That lead to Z-hundred dollars per month in finance charges.   Based on what I read about consumer debt in this country....there are a lots and lots of people currently in the situation I used to be in.  Add that quantity with the people who are desperately poor and I suspect that number is significant.  Yes, at a time like that, a $1 incandescent vs. a $25 LED makes a big difference.

Now?  I'm grateful to be in a position where I can consider a pricey light bulb.  I am also glad to have the option of installing a 10-year bulb in a location that is not the easiest to change.  But I also think we need to have the same lower-cost option that we have had all along, and I am disappointed to see that regulation has perhaps escalated the closure of U.S. factories -- I believe the last domestic manufacturer shuttered a few months ago.


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## Steve (Mar 12, 2012)

Cryozombie said:


> Ok.  You are right.  Instead of 1.00 a bulb, people should be able to spend 50 for one instead.  Ramen is only 15 cents a package after all.  Here's my problem with the idea you forwarded that this "should be doable".


Dude.  I never said, "should be doable." 

I said, "_Well, swapping out a whole house would be tough, but one bulb at a time is doable. As our bulbs burn out, we are replacing them with LEDs. Working out well, and not to tough on the budget. And as I said, we consider it an investment, because they last so long that it's unlikely we will ever have to replace them._"

That's the entire post.  As I said in an earlier response, if you have an agenda, I can see how you'd be able to twist the meaning.  In context, however, how the effing hell do you get the impression I'm talking about any household other than my own?  I never said "you."  I said "we" meaning my family.  I acknowledge that swapping out an entire house at once would be tough.  And it would be.  But we're doing it one bulb at a time, as our bulbs burn out, and that's doable.  I certainly didn't say, "Single moms struggling to put food on their tables."  And I never said anything at all negative about anyone who chooses to use whatever other kinds of bulbs they'd like.  



> I have lived, in the past, where having $50.00 left after paying for my house while working 2 jobs was a luxury, my friends providing me real meals while i lived on Mac and Cheese and Ramen trying to get ahead.  I can imagine what a hardship taking 1.00 bulbs off the shelf and replacing them with 50.00 ones exclusively can be, even if you do not... it makes me angry to think of those times, and then think someone is saying "oh come on, you can do it"... when they clearly have no idea what it would truly cost someone to be put in that position.


You know nothing about me, and I can't really tell you which is more offensive to me.  That you'd presume to lecture me about hardship, or that you'd presume I've never encountered it in my own life.  

There was a time in my life, shortly after I got out of the air force, when I was living in a $200/month room with no job in Bellingham (J street, close to downtown, for anyone familiar with the area).  I had electricity, because the house had it, but I had no heat, no gas, no phone, no tv, and no microwave.  I parked my car because I couldn't fund the insurance or the gas and walked everywhere.  The apartment had, of course, a gas range/oven, so I didn't even have fire with which to boil water, which meant that even Raman or Mac and Cheese were off the table (no pun intended).  I ate a crapload of peanut butter, breakfast, lunch and dinner, because it was cheap and filling and I could eat it cold.  This lasted about 4 months, scraping by until I ended up landing a job stacking lumber at a cedar finishing plant 3 miles from my house (full time work at $6.50/hour).  I woke up every morning and left my house by 5am to get to work by 6am and walked home each night.  Snow or rain.   Bellingham between September and January doesn't get this thing other parts of the country call "sunny days." 

I know that it sounds like something out of a cheesy movie, but I literally had to deal with rats, mice and even birds (they lived in the attic above my room.)  It's funny now, and I have a lot of great stories (like the time I woke up with a rat in my bed), but at the time, I can assure you that I was pretty stressed out.  

I separated from the USAF weighing 195 lbs and ended up at around 150 lbs in January, when I got the job stacking wood (and as an aside, also started dating my wife).  By the time I enrolled at the community college, "starving student" was a step up the economic ladder.  Even after graduation, my wife and I lived at well below the poverty level for years. I've been there.

I'm not trying to one up you, and I hope this doesn't come off like that.  I'm trying to tell you that I'd like for you to back off and chill out.  You are making some assumptions that are not only completely off base, but they're also incredibly insulting and rude.  

Getting back to the topic at hand, let me be clear.  I don't give a rip whether you buy an LED or not, just as I don't care whether Billcihak buys an Electric car.  I'm not judging you.  Do what you want. Use incandescent bulbs and drive a Hummer.  More power to you, if you can afford it.  I'm sharing what I am doing, and I try to share why, whenever I can.  Simple as that.  

Sometimes, I have to wonder what the hell you guys think you know about me. I get the impression that you think I'm a rich dude from a rich family who's never had to struggle for anything in my life.  Would that it were so.


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## Steve (Mar 12, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> The problem is the up front costs. With a $1 bulb it's an 'oh crap, better go pick up a 4pk'.  At $25, it's 'oh ****' unless you planned ahead, budgeted for it, put some cash on the side and was able to buy on sale.  Most people will not think that far ahead.


I have never said otherwise, Bob.  It's about priorities, and if you're living at a subsistence level, you're not thinking about long term savings.  I would have thought this was a given.


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## Steve (Mar 12, 2012)

Carol said:


> For me, when I was really broke, the issue wasn't just that I was really broke.  I was really broke and had debt on a credit card with a punitively high interest rate.  I was getting whacked with these nasty finance charges, month after month.  There are basically only two ways out of that jail -- go bankrupt, or pay it off.  I chose the latter.  Any extra dime I had went to paying that damn card off.
> 
> True, $25 over x amount of time isn't that much.  The trouble is, my credit card was full of $X charges over Y amount of time for purchases I made trying to survive when I was unemployed or underemployed.  That lead to Z-hundred dollars per month in finance charges.   Based on what I read about consumer debt in this country....there are a lots and lots of people currently in the situation I used to be in.  Add that quantity with the people who are desperately poor and I suspect that number is significant.  Yes, at a time like that, a $1 incandescent vs. a $25 LED makes a big difference.
> 
> Now?  I'm grateful to be in a position where I can consider a pricey light bulb.  I am also glad to have the option of installing a 10-year bulb in a location that is not the easiest to change.  But I also think we need to have the same lower-cost option that we have had all along, and I am disappointed to see that regulation has perhaps escalated the closure of U.S. factories -- I believe the last domestic manufacturer shuttered a few months ago.


Carol, I had the same issue.  Shortly after I married my wife, her disabled mother moved in with us for "just a few months" which turned into almost 10 years.  At the time, I was still in college.  We had a son by then and my wife was working full time in retail earning about $12k per year.  I worked about 30 hours per week at pretty close to minimum wage and I got about $400 per month from the GI bill.  There were many months where we literally had no choice but to either pay the rent on a credit card ($750 per month at the time) or not pay it at all.  By the time I graduated, my annual household income, including my MIL's income, was about 1/3rd of what we owed on credit cards.

Let me be very clear, guys.  My present self is in no way suggesting that my 90's era self would have thought at all about LED lightbulbs.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 12, 2012)

Steve said:


> I have never said otherwise, Bob.  It's about priorities, and if you're living at a subsistence level, you're not thinking about long term savings.  I would have thought this was a given.



It is, but you know me. Sometimes I repeat the obvious in case it wasn't obvious.


As to who you are...I thought your last name was Jobs.  Just like my first name is L Ron.  :cheers:


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## jks9199 (Mar 12, 2012)

Steve -- I think you've ended up taking the brunt of the general frustration about a $50 lightbulb winning a prize for "economy."  Without seeing the actual definition of economy in the contest, that certainly is a little mind-boggling.

And... by the federal elimination of standard incandescents, they taken those folks at bare subsistence, and pushed them over the edge.  I predict more apartment/house fires as more people find themselves using candles or lanterns, among other unintended side effects, like I bet we see some more declines in grades -- because kids won't be able to study at home because they don't have lights to read by...  Sure, you save lots over time -- but if you don't have the money up front, you can't benefit from those savings.


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## Steve (Mar 12, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Steve -- I think you've ended up taking the brunt of the general frustration about a $50 lightbulb winning a prize for "economy."  Without seeing the actual definition of economy in the contest, that certainly is a little mind-boggling.
> 
> And... by the federal elimination of standard incandescents, they taken those folks at bare subsistence, and pushed them over the edge.  I predict more apartment/house fires as more people find themselves using candles or lanterns, among other unintended side effects, like I bet we see some more declines in grades -- because kids won't be able to study at home because they don't have lights to read by...  Sure, you save lots over time -- but if you don't have the money up front, you can't benefit from those savings.


That might be true if CFLs weren't so inexpensive.  You can get an 18 pack of 60watt CFLs for $1.89 per bulb.  Locally, (and before anyone accuses me of something ridiculous, I KNOW that this means not everyone has access to it), PSE offers instant rebates, lowering the price even further.  

I'm sure that if my money were so tight, I'd be able to find them for even less.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 12, 2012)

Steve said:


> "_Well, swapping out a whole house would be  tough, but one bulb at a time is doable__. As our bulbs burn out, we are  replacing them with LEDs. Working out well, and not to tough on the  budget. And as I said, we consider it an investment, because they last  so long that it's unlikely we will ever have to replace them._"
> 
> That's the entire post.  As I said in an earlier response, if you have  an agenda, I can see how you'd be able to twist the meaning.  In  context, however, how the effing hell do you get the impression I'm  talking about any household other than my own?  I never said "you."  I  said "we" meaning my family.



Ok fair enough... your post said, as we both quoted above "_Well, swapping out a whole house would be  tough, but one bulb at a time is doable" _and the We are doing them one at a time statement came after... so I took that as two separate statements: It should be doable, and We are doing it, and put them together as It should be doable because we are doing it.    

As far as who you are or what your past is... you are right, I don't know, and not to make assumptions about that but based on my interpenetration of the above it wasn't a far stretch for me to assume that because you thought if you could do it anyone could that you didn't take into account people who were already stretched beyond their means.   So, I am sorry if I misunderstood you, but to be fair the way that was worded may not be as clear as you think it is.


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## Steve (Mar 12, 2012)

Cryozombie said:


> Ok fair enough... your post said, as we both quoted above "_Well, swapping out a whole house would be  tough, but one bulb at a time is doable" _and the We are doing them one at a time statement came after... so I took that as two separate statements: It should be doable, and We are doing it, and put them together as It should be doable because we are doing it.
> 
> As far as who you are or what your past is... you are right, I don't know, and not to make assumptions about that but based on my interpenetration of the above it wasn't a far stretch for me to assume that because you thought if you could do it anyone could that you didn't take into account people who were already stretched beyond their means.   So, I am sorry if I misunderstood you, but to be fair the way that was worded may not be as clear as you think it is.


Two separate statements, back to back, in the same paragraph.  But, you know, how about this?  How about giving me the goddamn benefit of the doubt?  Instead of presuming the worst, why don't you try doing the opposite?   How about speaking for yourself instead of presuming to speak for me?  Try that.  It works.  

This is written communication, so I totally get that there might have been some misunderstanding.  But, if you don't understand something, you can ask a clarifying question.  It works very well.  Just saying.


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## K-man (Mar 13, 2012)

When these LEDs came out in Australia a couple of years ago we bought ONE. It cost us $200 at that time and, here, they have now dropped to about $50. The one we put in is in a high ceiling and it gives great light for reading. The electricity usage is a fraction of that that an equivalent incandescent would require and the fluoro lights were hopeless in that spot. Eventually we will replace many of our lights with the LEDs but I hope at a more reasonable price.


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