# Shishi Baguazhang



## oaktree (Apr 5, 2012)

This thread is based on Shishi Baguazhang&#30707;&#29509;&#20843;&#21350;&#25484;.
Shishi Baguazhang is thought to be extinct for over 100 years, it did not come to be distinct from other Baguazhang styles until the 19th century most likely in Beijing. Around 1850, it became distinct from Yin style which it may have been based off or offshoot from.


The history is/was kept guarded and going pass 5th master the art's history becomes murky.

Though the art is distinct from Yin style Baguazhang, it shares elements from if. 
 Shishi Baguazhang uses the Lion form taken from Yin Bagua and combines the boxing from gouquan&#29399;&#25331; or Dog boxing.
The style is not unfinished so its orgins may still come to light with further scholarly effort.

The current line is headed by Alex or ZenJael.

If ZenJael would like to add more to this thread and flesh out what Shishi Baguazhang is it would be great. 
 Maybe we can find out more about Shishi Baguazhang. It might be possible that others in China have heard of it or maybe there is a reference in some
of the old boxing manuals in Chinese.


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## elder999 (Apr 5, 2012)

oaktree said:


> The current line is headed by Alex or ZenJael.




:lfao::lfao::lfao:

just....

:lfao:


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## clfsean (Apr 5, 2012)

I know folks in the Beijing/Tianjin area, as well in the Zhengzhou/Dengfeng area of Henan. 

I will need a name & video reference to make it happen though.


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## oaktree (Apr 5, 2012)

my wife has family in Guangzhou,Henan area oh can look up somethings for me. I also have thanks to Easy mule a good amount of old Baguazhang manuals.
 But you are right there has to be a name. Also ZenJael said his teacher studied Daito Ryu so he should be on their books because they record everything and someone who is very skilled and a gaijin would stick out. Also ZenJael's teacher studied Aikido in the 1950's so again should be easy to find in the books.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 5, 2012)

I have family in Beijing...but likely they would not much care to look up anything since I don't much care about the alleged Shi Shi Bagua :uhyeah:



oaktree said:


> The current line is headed by Alex or ZenJael.



So he's the lineage holder....alrighty then


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## K-man (Apr 5, 2012)

Beautiful.   :highfive:


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## jks9199 (Apr 5, 2012)

Alex -- who was your teacher in Shishi Baguazhang?  As I recall, you don't know much of his lineage -- but you do know at least that much, right?  Several people have suggested that, with a name, they might be able to confirm some things.  Otherwise -- you start to sound like the "learned ninjitsu from a secret master who fled Japan and taught me in his backyard" folks...


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 6, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Alex -- who was your teacher in Shishi Baguazhang?  As I recall, you don't know much of his lineage -- but you do know at least that much, right?  Several people have suggested that, with a name, they might be able to confirm some things.  Otherwise -- you start to sound like the "learned ninjitsu from a secret master who fled Japan and taught me in his backyard" folks...



Well I learned ninjitsu from a secret master who fled Japanand taught me in his backyard but I do not know his name he was very good atNinja invisibility so I never saw him and he never told me his name....he wasthat good and THAT secretive&#8230;.like ALL real ninja are&#8230;. but I am a ninja..... Actuallya Pirate ninja....ok a Kung Fu Pirate ninja&#8230; :uhyeah:


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## yak sao (Apr 6, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well I learned ninjitsu from a secret master who fled Japanand taught me in his backyard but I do not know his name he was very good atNinja invisibility so I never saw him and he never told me his name....he wasthat good and THAT secretive&#8230;.like ALL real ninja are&#8230;. but I am a ninja..... Actuallya Pirate ninja....ok a Kung Fu Pirate ninja&#8230; :uhyeah:




I don't believe you. If you were an actual ninja, you would not tell us, as that would be giving away your secret identity.
Unless of course, you are telling us in order to throw us off track, because you know we won't take you seriously.
Damn, ninjas are clever


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 6, 2012)

yak sao said:


> I don't believe you. If you were an actual ninja, you would not tell us, as that would be giving away your secret identity.
> Unless of course, you are telling us in order to throw us off track, because you know we won't take you seriously.
> Damn, ninjas are clever



EXACTLY!!!

But not just a ninja...a Kung Fu Pirate Ninja....ok an Evil Kung Fu Pirate Ninja


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## yak sao (Apr 6, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> EXACTLY!!!
> 
> But not just a ninja...a Kung Fu Pirate Ninja....ok an *Evil* Kung Fu Pirate Ninja




But you seem so nice......


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 6, 2012)

[video=youtube_share;9lj3ebVWDUw]http://youtu.be/9lj3ebVWDUw[/video]


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 6, 2012)

yak sao said:


> But you seem so nice......



Yes...all part of the plan for a Evil Kung Fu Pirate Ninja...ok an Evil Kung Fu Pirate Ninja who is kinda nice


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## oaktree (Apr 6, 2012)

ZenJael has refered to it as Shi Shi Baguazhang due to it being mixed of the Lion system of Yin Baguazhang and dog kungfu. 
 ZenJael is saying that the Shi Shi is a Lion dog but this is not accurate. &#30707;=stone or rock &#29509; means Lion because they guard the door. 
Wikipedia states:


> In English and several Western languages, the guardian lions are often referred in a multitude of name such as: "*Fu Dogs",[SUP][2][/SUP] "Foo Dogs", "Fu Lions", "Fo Lions", and "Lion Dogs".*[SUP][3][/SUP] The term "_Fo_" or "_Fu_" may be transliterations to the words &#20315; (pinyin: fó) or &#31119; (pinyin: fú), which means "buddha" or "prosperity" in Chinese, respectively. However, *Chinese reference to the guardians lion are seldom prefixed with &#20315; or &#31119;, and more importantly never referred to as "dogs".*
> Reference to guardian lions as dogs in Western cultures may be due to the Japanese reference to them as "Korean dogs" (&#29403;&#29356;&#12539;&#39640;&#40599;&#29356 due to their transmission from China through Korea into Japan. It may also be due to the misidentification of the guardian lion figures as representing certain Chinese dog breeds such as the Chow Chow (&#39686;&#29509;&#29356;, Pinyin: s&#333;ngsh&#299; qu&#462;n, lit. "puffy-lion dog") or Shih Tzu (&#29509;&#23376;&#29399;; Pinyin: Sh&#299;zi G&#466;u, lit. "lion dog").


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 6, 2012)

oaktree said:


> ZenJael has refered to it as Shi Shi Baguazhang due to it being mixed of the Lion system of Yin Baguazhang and dog kungfu.
> ZenJael is saying that the Shi Shi is a Lion dog but this is not accurate. &#30707;=stone or rock &#29509; means Lion because they guard the door.
> Wikipedia states:



Shih Tzu Bagua !?!?


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## oaktree (Apr 6, 2012)

I am calling Bull shihtzu on that one Xue.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 6, 2012)

OK the Chow Chow Bagua it is 







And I still think Shi Shi is slang in Beijing for either pee or poo... I shall have to chack


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## oaktree (Apr 6, 2012)

Its xu xu first tone so ya sounds like shi shi. Well at least its not bian bian.  
 By the way I'm allergic to dogs.


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## Zenjael (Apr 8, 2012)

oaktree said:


> This thread is based on Shishi Baguazhang&#30707;&#29509;&#20843;&#21350;&#25484;.
> Shishi Baguazhang is thought to be extinct for over 100 years, it did not come to be distinct from other Baguazhang styles until the 19th century most likely in Beijing. Around 1850, it became distinct from Yin style which it may have been based off or offshoot from.
> 
> 
> ...



I would be interested in its exploration further, historically. Frankly, it's murky past my teacher, who, granted, could have merely taken techniques from Yin style and merged them with others, or altered them toward his own desires. Who knows, but I would like to think that he was not fraudulent, and he never seemed so to me when practicing with Master Cheung prior to his passing.

I think, after further consideration this style should continue to be considered extinct. In no way am I master of it, or even near my own teacher's level, and may never be. As my own learning is incomplete, I do not think if I were to teach it, it would be as it was meant to be, so I do not believe I will be doing so.

I will however go into the philosophy of how it operates.

Shishi baguazhang, or guardian style, focuses on bringing the opponent to the ground, while maintaining control. It draws from, what I can tell now, Yin style lion techniques, combining them with ground techniques from Dog style. The lion style focuses on hand techniques to 'ground' the opponent, accompanied by low strikes beneath the waist which assist in the grounding. Combined with dog style's ability to retain control on the ground, it is very difficult for an opponent to get back on their feet.

Essentially, the most basic grounding which comes to mind would be from a front hand strike. The motion is as if a punch to the head, but instead it moves past it, then arcing to connect with the neck and utilize the momentum to drag the opponent to the ground. Instead of striking, it essentially pulls them. The low kicks would meanwhile be utilized to kick out their legs, or sweep them to the ground at the same time. To be honest, the form has a lot less dog than you'd think. Mainly only if you also get pulled to the ground.

I am unsure as to where Master Cheung learned his Aikido- all I have heard is it was in Korea. 



> Alex -- who was your teacher in Shishi Baguazhang?  As I recall, you  don't know much of his lineage -- but you do know at least that much,  right?  Several people have suggested that, with a name, they might be  able to confirm some things.  Otherwise -- you start to sound like the  "learned ninjitsu from a secret master who fled Japan and taught me in  his backyard" folks...



I don't disagree with this. But understand where I am coming from on this board where when I have given names, people have then sought out those teachers, and either contacted them, or advocated it, when that kind of response was not welcome on the part of my own teacher's. There comes a line between varification and stalking, which on this board doesn't actually seem to be clear. I realize some will disagree with this- but when I have lost employment, and have gotten angry calls from respected teachers, you begin to tread a bit more cautiously. So ah, I don't mind if people consider this style to be of the case. I do, but I would rather people think it a phony style, than it to be considered real and disparaged as worthless, through any fault of my own. I don't feel I have anything to bring to the table I need to prove- there are many styles of Bagua which are delineated from Yin. Even if my teacher was sincere in the history he conveyed to me, that does not mean at some point one of his teacher's teachers didn't hijack the art from Yin style, which I suspect is the more likely case.

I'll be honest- there is nothing secret or sacred about this style, and I apologize if I have made it come off as so. How master cheung, and his teacher's went about the teaching is no different than a familial style I have encountered while training in Chung Do Kwan; we had a visitor who, though a second dan, performed a style none of us had ever recognized, and I have never seen again since. He was a friend of a student there, who had been invited to an exam. When inquired as to his training, his only explanation was he had been trained by his father, in a style of karate (I did not hear the name, though I wish I had) his family had been practicing for at least as far back as his great-grandfather. 

We would probably be surprised how many styles we have never heard of which do exist; they just exist in a very minimal form, with very few people practicing them still. Every now and again you will hear about one. We may be surprised to find that many of the arts we consider extinct may actually not be, on occasion. Time will tell.

Here is my opinion on shishi baguazhang, however- It is a style which exists. It is unvarifiable as to whether it is authentic Baguazhang, as it's claims are disputed between what are publicly accepted historically for baguazhang. And generally speaking, it is more often the case it is not authentic when there is this kind of contradiction. It is highly likely that while a style of Baguazhang, it is one which drew from yin style, in particular it's lion branch, and is not its own unique branch, as it has been espoused to me. The greatest evidence of this to me is in the instruction from my teacher that to complete shishi I should train seperately in Yin and dog style, and focus on the lion palm forms, in addition to the dog style. It is, historically, a privately taught martial art, and I have been told is considered extinct. That being said, since it appears to not even have been heard of... I think it hard to call it even 'considered' extinct, to be fair. Regardless it's origins, I have seen the efficacy of its techniques against at least myself, and that stands as qualification alone that it was worth learning, to me.

If I had a video, I'd post it. I'll get on making one if anyone would like. Perhaps if only that style were viewed (instead of it jumbled together with a multitude of other arts as in the video I posted contains) we would better be able to pick it apart to discover it's origins. Even if fraudulent, I myself am curious to get a real answer out of this. If it turns out to be yin style, well, there you go; we have our answer. But it would be nice to find out where and how this was done, and why. I am a history major, so this kind of clarification is what I'm all about.

In martial arts we have to be careful about what we learn, for specifically this reason. You never know when what you are learning is ********su, and it would surprise me more to learn that none of the myriad styles I have dabbled in were fake, than to hear that a few were, which I expect. Though, I must add at this point we must question what we mean by 'fake'. Are we referring to a false history, or are we referring to the non-efficacy of its techniques? Because while the former could be true of this style, the latter is most definately not.

So even if it has a ********su history (which I think could be the case) does that actually detract from its worth as a style? There are many styles without a defined history or origin. Taijiquan is one such example, from what I understand as being as old as 1500 B.C.


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## clfsean (Apr 8, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> I would be interested in its exploration further, historically. Frankly, it's murky past my teacher, who, granted, could have merely taken techniques from Yin style and merged them with others, or altered them toward his own desires. Who knows, but I would like to think that he was not fraudulent, and he never seemed so to me when practicing with Master Cheung prior to his passing.



Cheung what? What's the rest of his name? 



Zenjael said:


> I think, after further consideration this style should continue to be considered extinct. In no way am I master of it, or even near my own teacher's level, and may never be. As my own learning is incomplete, I do not think if I were to teach it, it would be as it was meant to be, so I do not believe I will be doing so.



Hmmmm....



Zenjael said:


> I will however go into the philosophy of how it operates.
> 
> Shishi baguazhang, or guardian style, focuses on bringing the opponent to the ground, while maintaining control. It draws from, what I can tell now, Yin style lion techniques, combining them with ground techniques from Dog style. The lion style focuses on hand techniques to 'ground' the opponent, accompanied by low strikes beneath the waist which assist in the grounding. Combined with dog style's ability to retain control on the ground, it is very difficult for an opponent to get back on their feet.



Ummm... that's essentially the essense of the CMA's anyway. Put the opponent on the ground to finish. Nothing new there. Keep going... 



Zenjael said:


> Essentially, the most basic grounding which comes to mind would be from a front hand strike. The motion is as if a punch to the head, but instead it moves past it, then arcing to connect with the neck and utilize the momentum to drag the opponent to the ground. Instead of striking, it essentially pulls them. The low kicks would meanwhile be utilized to kick out their legs, or sweep them to the ground at the same time. To be honest, the form has a lot less dog than you'd think. Mainly only if you also get pulled to the ground.




Again... nothing new or "specific" to what you do. Keep trying... 



Zenjael said:


> I am unsure as to where Master Cheung learned his Aikido- all I have heard is it was in Korea.



Wait... A Chinese guy... in Korea in the 1950's... learning Aikido?? Really?? Wow... Where'd he get the Daito-ryu from?



Zenjael said:


> I don't disagree with this. But understand where I am coming from on this board where when I have given names, people have then sought out those teachers, and either contacted them, or advocated it, when that kind of response was not welcome on the part of my own teacher's. There comes a line between varification and stalking, which on this board doesn't actually seem to be clear. I realize some will disagree with this- but when I have lost employment, and have gotten angry calls from respected teachers, you begin to tread a bit more cautiously. So ah, I don't mind if people consider this style to be of the case. I do, but I would rather people think it a phony style, than it to be considered real and disparaged as worthless, through any fault of my own. I don't feel I have anything to bring to the table I need to prove- there are many styles of Bagua which are delineated from Yin. Even if my teacher was sincere in the history he conveyed to me, that does not mean at some point one of his teacher's teachers didn't hijack the art from Yin style, which I suspect is the more likely case.



Yeah that's how it works at times. Other times, no. But you say he's passed so there's no one to contact about it. What's his name? Verification is just that. Verifying statements and claims. Stalking is a bit more & I've never come across anybody here who has felt the need to stalk anybody when quite frankly anime & manga sized claims are being made about abilities & training. Add in to that your persistent refusal to listen to the multiple voices of reason and experience, both in life and martial arts... yeah, a teacher might need to be notified at times by somebody.



Zenjael said:


> I'll be honest- there is nothing secret or sacred about this style, and I apologize if I have made it come off as so. How master cheung, and his teacher's went about the teaching is no different than a familial style I have encountered while training in Chung Do Kwan; we had a visitor who, though a second dan, performed a style none of us had ever recognized, and I have never seen again since. He was a friend of a student there, who had been invited to an exam. When inquired as to his training, his only explanation was he had been trained by his father, in a style of karate (I did not hear the name, though I wish I had) his family had been practicing for at least as far back as his great-grandfather.



Ok... so his name. You've made it sound super secret, much like another bagua practitioner I've come across recently. 



Zenjael said:


> We would probably be surprised how many styles we have never heard of which do exist; they just exist in a very minimal form, with very few people practicing them still. Every now and again you will hear about one. We may be surprised to find that many of the arts we consider extinct may actually not be, on occasion. Time will tell.



And you would be surprised to find out how many do not & with the experience & travels completed by the members here & our networks, claims can be verified or nullified in short order. 



Zenjael said:


> Here is my opinion on shishi baguazhang, however- It is a style which exists. It is unvarifiable as to whether it is authentic Baguazhang, as it's claims are disputed between what are publicly accepted historically for baguazhang. And generally speaking, it is more often the case it is not authentic when there is this kind of contradiction. It is highly likely that while a style of Baguazhang, it is one which drew from yin style, in particular it's lion branch, and is not its own unique branch, as it has been espoused to me. The greatest evidence of this to me is in the instruction from my teacher that to complete shishi I should train seperately in Yin and dog style, and focus on the lion palm forms, in addition to the dog style. It is, historically, a privately taught martial art, and I have been told is considered extinct. That being said, since it appears to not even have been heard of... I think it hard to call it even 'considered' extinct, to be fair. Regardless it's origins, I have seen the efficacy of its techniques against at least myself, and that stands as qualification alone that it was worth learning, to me.



Ok if it's so good, why would you be told to train in two different styles & then combine them? According to the story from you, that is what you're supposed to have learned anyway. 



Zenjael said:


> If I had a video, I'd post it. I'll get on making one if anyone would like. Perhaps if only that style were viewed (instead of it jumbled together with a multitude of other arts as in the video I posted contains) we would better be able to pick it apart to discover it's origins. Even if fraudulent, I myself am curious to get a real answer out of this. If it turns out to be yin style, well, there you go; we have our answer. But it would be nice to find out where and how this was done, and why. I am a history major, so this kind of clarification is what I'm all about.



Cool... I'd like to see it since I'd already asked for the first palm change & you didn't think you'd do that.


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## jks9199 (Apr 8, 2012)

Alex, as far as I know nobody has gone out seeking any of your teachers.  If you have received calls, I would suggest that they may already be members here or found it on their own. ( I regularly check my own name on the web for professional reasons, for example. )  I wouldn't think they would be angry calls if they were pleased with how you represented them. 

Sent from my Ally using Tapatalk


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## oaktree (Apr 8, 2012)

Hi ZenJael.
 I like to say thank you for replying to this thread.


> I would be interested in its exploration further, historically. Frankly, it's murky past my teacher, who, granted, could have merely taken techniques from Yin style and merged them with others, or altered them toward his own desires.


From what you said before was:


> The history is/was kept guarded and going pass 5th master the art's history becomes murky


 This would mean your teacher is the 5th master?
and


> As I said, it wasn't until around 1850 when shishi baguazhang became recognized as distinct, and as I also said, it shares elements with Yin style though is different.


 These are the words you typed on the Martial Art extinction page. I understand your teacher may have created the style or what not but other people may ask for clarification when things sound a bit off to what they have to compare it to. Nothing wrong with off shooting or sythesis styles.



> Shishi baguazhang, or guardian style


Shishi Baguzhang &#30707;&#29422;&#23376; does not mean Lion dog nor does it mean guardian style. The first &#30707; means rock or stone the second &#29422; means Lion.The last Hanzi is &#23376; this is a noun suffix use to confuse Americans who want to learn Chinese :uhyeah: Just kidding it is used to help create a word like Erzi &#20799;&#23376; the last hanzi help make the word. 
This is why I find it difficult for a native Chinese to come up with Shishi Baguazhang and translate it as guardian style of Lion/Dog style.



> I am unsure as to where Master Cheung learned his Aikido- all I have heard is it was in Korea.


 You said in another thread your teacher learned Daito ryu and was very skilled in it. This would mean your teacher had to have practiced it for a long period of time and I think 10-20 years to be very skilled in a Koryu art. I believe others on the board who train in Koryu arts can comment on it. I don't know if there was any Daito ryu training being done in Korea though. I suppose it is possible to have learned Aikido in Korea during the 50's. But what would be the point supposely Choi Yong trained in Daito Ryu and then went to Korea and started Hapkido which is sort of like what your teacher did?



> I don't feel I have anything to bring to the table I need to prove- there are many styles of Bagua which are delineated from Yin


That is correct nothing wrong with anything coming from another style. For example Wang Shu Jin learned Baguazhang from Li Cun Yi who learned from Cheng Tinghua. We can say that Wang Shu Jin's line comes from Cheng line and there is nothing wrong with that, however if we say well Wang's style is a mix of Cheng's line and something like Kun Lun spinning fist and then say it was around the same time Cheng's style was being develop well its a little odd.



> I'll be honest- there is nothing secret or sacred about this style





> The history is/was kept guarded


Sounds pretty secretive to me.


> Here is my opinion on shishi baguazhang, however- It is a style which exists.





> after further consideration this style should continue to be considered extinct.


I am confused which one is it?


> it is one which drew from yin style, in particular it's lion branch, and is not its own unique branch





> it became distinct from Yin style.



I am confused is it unique or is it not unique?



> I have been told is considered extinct.





> That being said, since it appears to not even have been heard of... I think it hard to call it even 'considered' extinct, to be fair


But in the Martial art extinction thread you said:


> it has been thought to be extinct





> I am the last practitioner of the style


Either it is extinct which it can not be if you know it or it is not extinct which again means it is not if you are the last person who knows that art.


> If I had a video, I'd post it. I'll get on making one if anyone would like. Perhaps if only that style were viewed (instead of it jumbled together with a multitude of other arts as in the video I posted contains) we would better be able to pick it apart to discover it's origins. Even if fraudulent, I myself am curious to get a real answer out of this. If it turns out to be yin style, well, there you go; we have our answer.


So in order to see an art as you describe it then it would have to have Yin Lion Baguazhang and dog boxing, cool I like to see what it look likes. Your Yin Lion should look like this: 



Your Dog boxing should be like this:





The styles are so opposite of each other it is like walking backwards to go forward.


> In martial arts we have to be careful about what we learn, for specifically this reason. You never know when what you are learning is ********su


Which is why we ask questions politely here, If this was brought up over at Bullshido who make it their mission to prove you are BS and if anyone searched your name Bullshido will be the first thing that pops up along with proof or disproof of any claims. 



> Though, I must add at this point we must question what we mean by 'fake'


A Ming vase is worth alot of money. A fake Ming vase not so much. Which one would you want to pay thousands of dollars for?


> Are we referring to a false history, or are we referring to the non-efficacy of its techniques? Because while the former could be true of this style, the latter is most definately not.


 Both a Ming vase and a Fake Ming vase can hold flowers but only one is worth a couple thousand dollars.



> So even if it has a ********su history (which I think could be the case) does that actually detract from its worth as a style? There are many styles without a defined history or origin


 Not quite, If I knew I was buying a fake Ming vase but I like the way it looks and it won't cost me a couple of thousand then no big deal I have a nice vase. It only becomes a big deal if I pay thousands of dollars for one. My teacher learned a particular martial art from his teacher, he says concerning the style that his teacher learned from someone he met who told him it was a family style, my teacher has said many times there is no proof of this family style but he likes the style so he learned it. He did not try to give it some fancy history dating to the Qing dynasty,  but it is what it is here is a clip of it:


>


This is not my teacher but a student of my teacher.


> Taijiquan is one such example, from what I understand as being as old as 1500 B.C.


There is no proof of Taijiquan being that old. Most historians do not even accept that or San Feng being the creator. The earliest we can trace it is to Chen 
http://www.nardis.com/~twchan/henning.html

I hope as someone who is majoring in history you learn to perform better research and know how to look for contradictions in stories.


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## Zenjael (Apr 8, 2012)

> This would mean your teacher is the 5th master?



Possibly, though I cannot affirm or deny this, as the line goes back even further. I wish I could ask him where the line really begins... but ah, I didn't really think of that at the time when I could have requested it.



> These are the words you typed on the Martial Art extinction page. I  understand your teacher may have created the style or what not but other  people may ask for clarification when things sound a bit off to what  they have to compare it to. Nothing wrong with off shooting or sythesis  styles.



Absolutely, and I understand when that clarification can fail on my own end. Hence why I am replying to this thread, I would like to make it as clear as can be. Maybe shisih baguazhang is bullshido... but what I learned was not, and to that end, perhaps I can clear things up so people won't refer to it as that any longer. Thank you again for this thread.



> Shishi Baguzhang &#30707;&#29422;&#23376; does not mean Lion dog nor does it mean guardian  style. The first &#30707; means rock or stone the second &#29422; means Lion.The last  Hanzi is &#23376; this is a noun suffix use to confuse Americans who want to  learn Chinese :uhyeah: Just kidding it is used to help create a word like Erzi &#20799;&#23376; the last hanzi help make the word.
> This is why I find it difficult for a native Chinese to come up with  Shishi Baguazhang and translate it as guardian style of Lion/Dog style.



That is because the shishi comes more from me than anything else. And I am American, and by no means an asiatic linguist. While being taught, it was referred to as quiron bagua in English. Quiron apparently is a very unknown name for the beast, and is better known as shishi, so it is more appropriate to refer toward it as the former... but as the style supposedly emulates the actions of the mythical animal, it seemed less important as getting the name exactly as it was, and moreso to make it simpler for people to know what animal I am talking about, even without going into the mechanics.



> You said in another thread your teacher learned Daito ryu and was very  skilled in it. This would mean your teacher had to have practiced it for  a long period of time and I think 10-20 years to be very skilled in a  Koryu art. I believe others on the board who train in Koryu arts can  comment on it. I don't know if there was any Daito ryu training being  done in Korea though. I suppose it is possible to have learned Aikido in  Korea during the 50's. But what would be the point supposely Choi Yong  trained in Daito Ryu and then went to Korea and started Hapkido which is  sort of like what your teacher did?



His training was purportedly through Japanese soldiers. That is the extent he said, and it was neither bitterness nor contempt. So I am unsure as to what to make of that history. I imagine some people study the arts for the sake of the arts. This particular teacher is like that, and I am as well. For example; he offered Bagua in exchange for any insight I might have to offer in WTF TKD, even though he had practiced Taekyon. He was an odd man.



> That is correct nothing wrong with anything coming from another style.  For example Wang Shu Jin learned Baguazhang from Li Cun Yi who learned  from Cheng Tinghua. We can say that Wang Shu Jin's line comes from Cheng  line and there is nothing wrong with that, however if we say well  Wang's style is a mix of Cheng's line and something like Kun Lun  spinning fist and then say it was around the same time Cheng's style was  being develop well its a little odd.



I concur, but I think it also improper not to give credit where it is do.



> Sounds pretty secretive to me.



Perhaps guarded is the wrong word? I was simply told not to flaunt what was taught, choose my students well, and not to go into detail. I say guarded because even my own access to it, as a purported 'successor', was neglible. I'll have to think on this, for it is hard for me to put into words. It is somewhat like... if you don't ask to begin with, you won't get the answer, less so than it was actively kept from a person. Our training periods were 3 months long at most before I had to return home, so...  I think that not completely unfair given the time constraints.



> Either it is extinct which it can not be if you know it or it is not  extinct which again means it is not if you are the last person who knows  that art.



that is fair, but I think this contradiction more a case of me altering my own opinion after speaking with people such as yourself. To be the last person practicing it, I feel I honestly would need to be a master in the case of allowing it to be passed to another without any innovation on my own end. 

As Master Cheung is the last person I know of able to practice it, perhaps it is better for me to say it went extinct with him. Someone half-trained in a dying art will not ensure it's survival, and as such, thinking of it like that, it seems to me the art then has already, the moment M. Cheung went to the grave.

I think it better now to say I practice elements of it, and give master Cheung the deference he is due as it's last practitioner. 



> The styles are so opposite of each other it is like walking backwards to go forward.



I concur completely. It's why I almost never use the dog element of the palm changes... they are awkward for me. I find it better just to employ TKD kicks instead... since you already have a grounding system through Lion style. It seemed an unnecessary complementation, but I will also say the kicks from Lion slide into the dog forms. It works well, if you're very good at it... but until then you really feel more like you're fighting yourself than anything else. Additionally, switching dog style from its traditional form to use the grounding of bagua completely changes the amount of force necessary, and degree of control. It becomes awkward, as you've pointed out.

It's not a bad idea, I just have no idea why someone would implement it as opposed to just... kick the hell out of someone, if there are other alternatives available... such as Taekyon's kicks. 



> Which is why we ask questions politely here, If this was brought up over  at Bullshido who make it their mission to prove you are BS and if  anyone searched your name Bullshido will be the first thing that pops up  along with proof or disproof of any claims.



Chances are very likely this art style would not pass muster over there, and this I am aware of.



> A Ming vase is worth alot of money. A fake Ming vase not so much. Which one would you want to pay thousands of dollars for?



This is true, but if the vase you receive were free, passed inspection by others, and was a utilizable vase, at a young age, it makes it difficult to find reason to question it. It's only when we get older we pay closer attention to the details, as opposed to solely its purpose and function. That's when you look a little close at the family antiques and might find a gold sticker saying 'Made in Taiwan'. 



> Not quite, If I knew I was buying a fake Ming vase but I like the way it  looks and it won't cost me a couple of thousand then no big deal I have  a nice vase. It only becomes a big deal if I pay thousands of dollars  for one. My teacher learned a particular martial art from his teacher,  he says concerning the style that his teacher learned from someone he  met who told him it was a family style, my teacher has said many times  there is no proof of this family style but he likes the style so he  learned it. He did not try to give it some fancy history dating to the  Qing dynasty,  but it is what it is here is a clip of it:



At the end of the day, I think I am finding myself in a similar position as your teacher, and I think his approach is what is appropriate. Going forward I think that will be my intent, should I refer to this style. I am finding myself of late being pulled back into the CKD circuit in this area, so unfortunantely it might be sometime before we can really get answers about this style. 

I would like to thank you again for this thread. I have found your posts always to be of the highest quality.



> There is no proof of Taijiquan being that old. Most historians do not  even accept that or San Feng being the creator. The earliest we can  trace it is to Chen



I'll have to re-tract my statement about its age until I can find my source to back it up. Apologies, it is taking longer than I thought. I'll PM you when I find it, but it speaks about a scroll dating back to either 1500 b.c. or 500 b.c (I'm blanking on which without it presently). The piece of silk has if I recall either 8 or 12 postures, which are directly related to modern Taijiquan practice. I am certain you have heard of what I am speaking about though. I'm certain I'll locate it soon, but for now must hop offline for a bit. After all, it is Easter . Have a happy holiday guys.


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## elder999 (Apr 8, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Possibly, though I cannot affirm or deny this, as the line goes back even further. I wish I could ask him where the line really begins... but ah, I didn't really think of that at the time when I could have requested it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## elder999 (Apr 8, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> That is because the shishi comes more from me than anything else.
> 
> .










:lfao:


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## K-man (Apr 8, 2012)

Oh dear! Another thread hijacked with Bullshido.     Whoa!       :uhohh:


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## clfsean (Apr 8, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Possibly, though I cannot affirm or deny this, as the line goes back even further. I wish I could ask him where the line really begins... but ah, I didn't really think of that at the time when I could have requested it.



Bull. You never expected to be called on it.



Zenjael said:


> Absolutely, and I understand when that clarification can fail on my own end. Hence why I am replying to this thread, I would like to make it as clear as can be. Maybe shisih baguazhang is bullshido... but what I learned was not, and to that end, perhaps I can clear things up so people won't refer to it as that any longer. Thank you again for this thread.



Maybe it is bullshido, but what I learned wasn't. REALLY? Contradiction much?



Zenjael said:


> That is because the shishi comes more from me than anything else. And I am American, and by no means an asiatic linguist. While being taught, it was referred to as quiron bagua in English. Quiron apparently is a very unknown name for the beast, and is better known as shishi, so it is more appropriate to refer toward it as the former... but as the style supposedly emulates the actions of the mythical animal, it seemed less important as getting the name exactly as it was, and moreso to make it simpler for people to know what animal I am talking about, even without going into the mechanics.



The critter I think you're trying to call in here & I will probably kick myself for this... is the keilin (qilin to the sissy lispy speakers like Xue)... or the Unicorn. Keilin's have a pretty specific area of influence in TCMA's and I gotta be honest, bagua or dog boxing ain't it.



Zenjael said:


> His training was purportedly through Japanese soldiers. That is the extent he said, and it was neither bitterness nor contempt. So I am unsure as to what to make of that history. I imagine some people study the arts for the sake of the arts. This particular teacher is like that, and I am as well. For example; he offered Bagua in exchange for any insight I might have to offer in WTF TKD, even though he had practiced Taekyon. He was an odd man.



:BSmeter:




Zenjael said:


> I concur, but I think it also improper not to give credit where it is do.



If it's due, then yes give it. If not, don't. 




Zenjael said:


> Perhaps guarded is the wrong word? I was simply told not to flaunt what was taught, choose my students well, and not to go into detail. I say guarded because even my own access to it, as a purported 'successor', was neglible. I'll have to think on this, for it is hard for me to put into words. It is somewhat like... if you don't ask to begin with, you won't get the answer, less so than it was actively kept from a person. Our training periods were 3 months long at most before I had to return home, so...  I think that not completely unfair given the time constraints.



Don't ask don't tell... but yet you come here & reveal yourself as the sole practitioner left in the world (to your knowledge) of sek si baat gwa jeurng. I see... 





Zenjael said:


> As Master Cheung is the last person I know of able to practice it, perhaps it is better for me to say it went extinct with him. Someone half-trained in a dying art will not ensure it's survival, and as such, thinking of it like that, it seems to me the art then has already, the moment M. Cheung went to the grave.



Or while you were thinking up a new way to be cool & making it up... but then you were called & OOOOPPPPSSSSSSSSS........




Zenjael said:


> I think it better now to say I practice elements of it, and give master Cheung the deference he is due as it's last practitioner.



Let's see those elements that you practice from it. 




Zenjael said:


> I concur completely. It's why I almost never use the dog element of the palm changes... they are awkward for me. I find it better just to employ TKD kicks instead... since you already have a grounding system through Lion style. It seemed an unnecessary complementation, but I will also say the kicks from Lion slide into the dog forms. It works well, if you're very good at it... but until then you really feel more like you're fighting yourself than anything else. Additionally, switching dog style from its traditional form to use the grounding of bagua completely changes the amount of force necessary, and degree of control. It becomes awkward, as you've pointed out.



:BSmeter:



Zenjael said:


> It's not a bad idea, I just have no idea why someone would implement it as opposed to just... kick the hell out of someone, if there are other alternatives available... such as Taekyon's kicks.



Why bother with another kicking method? Why not use the one provided?? Wait, never mind... I answered my own question.



Zenjael said:


> Chances are very likely this art style would not pass muster over there, and this I am aware of.



But it does here?



Zenjael said:


> This is true, but if the vase you receive were free, passed inspection by others, and was a utilizable vase, at a young age, it makes it difficult to find reason to question it. It's only when we get older we pay closer attention to the details, as opposed to solely its purpose and function. That's when you look a little close at the family antiques and might find a gold sticker saying 'Made in Taiwan'.



Nope... just more proof PT Barnum was correct



Zenjael said:


> At the end of the day, I think I am finding myself in a similar position as your teacher, and I think his approach is what is appropriate. Going forward I think that will be my intent, should I refer to this style. I am finding myself of late being pulled back into the CKD circuit in this area, so unfortunantely it might be sometime before we can really get answers about this style.



Nice dodge




Zenjael said:


> I'll have to re-tract my statement about its age until I can find my source to back it up. Apologies, it is taking longer than I thought. I'll PM you when I find it, but it speaks about a scroll dating back to either 1500 b.c. or 500 b.c (I'm blanking on which without it presently). The piece of silk has if I recall either 8 or 12 postures, which are directly related to modern Taijiquan practice. I am certain you have heard of what I am speaking about though. I'm certain I'll locate it soon, but for now must hop offline for a bit. After all, it is Easter . Have a happy holiday guys.



This should be good... 

:drinkbeeropcorn:


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## K-man (Apr 8, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> That is because the shishi comes more from me than anything else.


Wouldn't that make it "Bull Shishi"?      :hmm:


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 8, 2012)

How would someone go about contacting Master Cheung, since he is dead, if I read correctly?

I am not sure how revealing more of his name could lead to his making an angry phone call to you.


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## oaktree (Apr 8, 2012)

Hi ZenJael,
 I first want to say thanks for replying to this thread. Second Martial Talk has an anti fraud busting policy so everyone is welcome here.
  With that being said we can ask questions about things in an attempt to better understand where you are coming from.


> Possibly, though I cannot affirm or deny this, as the line goes back even further. I wish I could ask him where the line really begins... but ah, I didn't really think of that at the time when I could have requested it.


 I guess we will never truly know. Most Bagua teachers just starting out in the 1920-1940 would be about 3rd generation so 5th generation would mean the line would have to have carried before Dong Haichuan or people died quickly in the line.
I think Yin is in 5th generation with He Jin Bao, Liang is like 4th or 5th as well and so on.


> Maybe shisih baguazhang is bullshido... but what I learned was not, and to that end, perhaps I can clear things up so people won't refer to it as that any longer. Thank you again for this thread


Hey if the techniques work great, if the art is based on Baguazhang great, Ashida Kim may have some legit moves but a Ninja he is not. I don't see anything wrong with a modern Baguazhang an off shoot a sythesis whatever but as long as it is what it is its fine. If you presented it as my teacher taught me this style called Shishi Baguazhang,
 he told me this is the history but I am not sure its cool. I wouldn't say you are at fault but I think a bigger issue here is you are becoming a history major yet you are presenting a history that sounds odd. I think thats kinda of ironic. 


> That is because the shishi comes more from me than anything else. And I am American, and by no means an asiatic linguist


You are the one who came up with the term Shishi? which you said was because it mixes Lion and dog Bagua which is not true, Your Chinese girlfriend should have told you this.


> it was referred to as quiron bagua in English. Quiron apparently is a very unknown name for the beast


 Quiron? Qilin &#40594;&#40607;&#65311;well there does exist a Qilin in Yin Baguazhang. That would be kinda of cool if you said you studied this:


> Heaven Earth Baguazhang is based on the Qian and Kun trigram in the I Ching representing Pure Yang and Yin. The Heaven trigram represents the Lion and the Earth trigram represents the Qilin. Heaven and Earth Baguzhang is based off Yin Baguazhang and balances both extreme opposites of Yin and Yang.


Instead you gave us Shishi baguazhang which means Lion dog based on Yin Lion form and Dog ground fighting. Now you are saying you made the Shishi name and it was orginally called Qilin?


> but as the style supposedly emulates the actions of the mythical animal, it seemed less important as getting the name exactly as it was, and moreso to make it simpler for people to know what animal I am talking about, even without going into the mechanics.


 Most people do not know what Shishi means or Qilin they know Fo or Fu dog. So if it is based off the Qilin of Yin or Lion from Yin or both
then your form should look something like this:







> His training was purportedly through Japanese soldiers


Interesting, your teacher must be fluent in Japanese or the teachers spoke Chinese. I did not know there were people teaching Daito ryu in China during that time but I guess anything is possible when things can not be verified. I would think he would have had to been really special and study quite often to learn this.


> he offered Bagua in exchange for any insight I might have to offer in WTF TKD, even though he had practiced Taekyon. He was an odd man.


 Weird I'd think a person who has over 60 years experience would want to learn WTF TKD from a teenager.


> I concur completely. It's why I almost never use the dog element of the palm changes


You just said that the shishi was your words! You said the style's real name is Qilin and is:



> but as the style supposedly emulates the actions of the mythical animal


So is it based on Yin Lion Bagua and Dog kungfu or Qilin or all or both?! :wah:


> they are awkward for me. I find it better just to employ TKD kicks instead... since you already have a grounding system through Lion style. It seemed an unnecessary complementation, but I will also say the kicks from Lion slide into the dog forms. It works well, if you're very good at it... but until then you really feel more like you're fighting yourself than anything else. Additionally, switching dog style from its traditional form to use the grounding of bagua completely changes the amount of force necessary, and degree of control. It becomes awkward, as you've pointed


So all this dog and Lion talk is about this:


> as the style supposedly emulates the actions of the mythical animal





> Perhaps guarded is the wrong word? I was simply told not to flaunt what was taught, choose my students well, and not to go into detail. I say guarded because even my own access to it, as a purported 'successor', was neglible. I'll have to think on this, for it is hard for me to put into words. It is somewhat like... if you don't ask to begin with, you won't get the answer, less so than it was actively kept from a person. Our training periods were 3 months long at most before I had to return home, so...  I think that not completely unfair given the time constraints.


 Every Baguazhang style I know of has books out on the subject. Since your style is based on Yin alot of it is already out except well maybe some oral things but the history of it is no secret.



> This is true, but if the vase you receive were free, passed inspection by others, and was a utilizable vase, at a young age, it makes it difficult to find reason to question it


 If I had a certified letter signed by someone who can verify its legit I would most likely think I had a Ming vase. But if I paided $5 for a Ming vase and it had a certified letter granting it is real I would be wondering if it is real. There is a school that says they are legit and they look legit but they are not a school listed on the offical site so buyer beware.



> At the end of the day, I think I am finding myself in a similar position as your teacher, and I think his approach is what is appropriate.


My teacher never claim any weird history with it, he said his teacher met someone who said this is his family art and that was it. He also said he does not know if that is true or not but he never tried to present it as something it is not.  Like I said nothing wrong with it being a modern art or whatever just be up front of what it is.
 You on the other hand present things with a weird history. If your teacher said this thats fine I would't blame you because you are just repeating what your teacher told you.
but others might question it just like others might question my teacher's teacher's art. 



> but it speaks about a scroll dating back to either 1500 b.c. or 500 b.c


 1,000 years is a big difference! 


> piece of silk has if I recall either 8 or 12 postures, which are directly related to modern Taijiquan practice.



No secret Chen Wangting got some of his concept from Dao yin. I can see some images that look similar to some of the forms in Taijiquan but I think the function is totally different.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 8, 2012)

One thing I have noted is that Alex does not appear to be a liar.  Everything he says he has learned, he has had at least some plausible exposure to.  I would say that he exaggerates his experience a lot, and then tries to backtrack when called on it, while still insisting his awesomeness remains intact.  So I don't have much doubt that there is or was a person who taught Alex something he called "Shishi Baguazhang."  Unfortunately, that doesn't mean that the person who taught it to him was entirely beyond reproach.

In my own dojo, we have students who formerly studied various forms of Kung Fu, TKD, and they've shared some of their techs with us, and we've even done some techniques from Aikido and Judo here and there.  I've sparred a kung fu guy and we've gotten to be friends.  So, I would say I've 'brushed up against' a few techniques from systems other than my own.  If I were Alex, I'd say I had 'learned them'.  It's all down to point of view, not base veracity, I think.  Just my 2 cents.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 8, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> One thing I have noted is that Alex does not appear to be a liar.  Everything he says he has learned, he has had at least some plausible exposure to.  I would say that he exaggerates his experience a lot, and then tries to backtrack when called on it, while still insisting his awesomeness remains intact.  So I don't have much doubt that there is or was a person who taught Alex something he called "Shishi Baguazhang."  Unfortunately, that doesn't mean that the person who taught it to him was entirely beyond reproach.
> 
> In my own dojo, we have students who formerly studied various forms of Kung Fu, TKD, and they've shared some of their techs with us, and we've even done some techniques from Aikido and Judo here and there.  I've sparred a kung fu guy and we've gotten to be friends.  So, I would say I've 'brushed up against' a few techniques from systems other than my own.  If I were Alex, I'd say I had 'learned them'.  It's all down to point of view, not base veracity, I think.  Just my 2 cents.



Could be, I know a rather reputable Taiji sifu (impeccable and impressive lineage to Yang family, not via Tung family) who honestly believe he is teaching Tung Ying Chiehs fast form and I can guarantee you that he absolutely is not. The person that taught him claims to have learned it from a member of the Tung Family and he most definitely did not due to the time he says he learned it, the location and the Tung member he claims to have learned it from.


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## jks9199 (Apr 8, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> One thing I have noted is that Alex does not appear to be a liar.  Everything he says he has learned, he has had at least some plausible exposure to.  I would say that he exaggerates his experience a lot, and then tries to backtrack when called on it, while still insisting his awesomeness remains intact.  So I don't have much doubt that there is or was a person who taught Alex something he called "Shishi Baguazhang."  Unfortunately, that doesn't mean that the person who taught it to him was entirely beyond reproach.
> 
> In my own dojo, we have students who formerly studied various forms of Kung Fu, TKD, and they've shared some of their techs with us, and we've even done some techniques from Aikido and Judo here and there.  I've sparred a kung fu guy and we've gotten to be friends.  So, I would say I've 'brushed up against' a few techniques from systems other than my own.  If I were Alex, I'd say I had 'learned them'.  It's all down to point of view, not base veracity, I think.  Just my 2 cents.





Xue Sheng said:


> Could be, I know a rather reputable Taiji sifu (impeccable and impressive lineage to Yang family, not via Tung family) who honestly believe he is teaching Tung Ying Chieh&#8217;s fast form and I can guarantee you that he absolutely is not. The person that taught him claims to have learned it from a member of the Tung Family and he most definitely did not due to the time he says he learned it, the location and the Tung member he claims to have learned it from.



I agree with Bill -- and with the point Xue is making.  I believe Alex was exposed to and may have trained with some form of bagua (it sounds like something he did during summer vacation from school, guessing between his age and the timing he mentioned).  For many reasons, the person he was learning from may not have stressed details about names and learning history, and simply focused on the techniques.  That teacher may even have honestly imparted what he'd been told, and rolled with Alex's own name for it.

Alex -- you remind me of a friend of mine, whom I respect greatly.  His stories sometimes grew in the telling, usually to the benefit of someone in the tale.  For example, he and I attended a mutual friend's wedding.  Between the ceremony and the reception, he saw me in the hotel bar with another guest, a woman.  She bought me a drink while we were waiting for the reception to start.  Well... the last version of the story had me surrounded by beautiful women, all vying to buy me drinks.  There's a germ of truth... but the real circumstances were a bit different, huh?


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## K-man (Apr 8, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> One thing I have noted is that Alex does not appear to be a liar.


 Sorry to disagree Bill, but when a guy claims to have a black belt in Shotokan and later states that he actually hasn't graded to any level, my ears twitch, my nostrils flair and I will call it for what it is.   Like you, I believe this boy has played around with a variety of MAs but I will question his background on all of them. Even the TKD in which he claimed initially to be nidan going on sandan in now almost at yondan and he hasn't even got an instructor. Mate, my meter is on full deflection!  (See below, the needle is right across the red!)

:BSmeter:


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 8, 2012)

K-man said:


> Sorry to disagree Bill, but when a guy claims to have a black belt in Shotokan and later states that he actually hasn't graded to any level, my ears twitch, my nostrils flair and I will call it for what it is.   Like you, I believe this boy has played around with a variety of MAs but I will question his background on all of them. Even the TKD in which he claimed initially to be nidan going on sandan in now almost at yondan and he hasn't even got an instructor. Mate, my meter is on full deflection!  (See below, the needle is right across the red!)
> 
> :BSmeter:



Yeah, I understand.  I'm using a lower bar to differentiate between 'lying' and 'exaggerating'...


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## K-man (Apr 8, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Yeah, I understand.  I'm using a lower bar to differentiate between 'lying' and 'exaggerating'...


Fair enough, but I think the bar should be high enough that we can at least crawl under it!


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## Cyriacus (Apr 10, 2012)

Im honestly giggling at alot of this.
I believe I said this before in another Thread: When Alex's Conclusions are weird or wrong, usually the means by which He got to them isnt too bad, but somehow got misconstrewed.
When Alex's Conclusions are right, usually the means by which He got to them are weird, or wrong.
Sometimes theyre just weird, or overphilosophied.
I dont doubt Hes doing His own thing, and I dont doubt Hes interacted with alot of MA's.
I do doubt that Hes taking the best He can out of them, or interpreting them soundly.
I dont doubt He runs an outlet which He dubs under this name.
I do doubt it really deserves to be named as an individual system, rather than just being called Baguazhang, without being attributed to any organisation or entity, since its an individual Outlet.
I dont doubt He founds alot of ideas on solid bases.
I do doubt the ideas formed as a result.

There we go - Some food for discussion. Ill just stay Neutral, for now. I honestly still dont know what to believe is really going on


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## K-man (Apr 10, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Im honestly giggling at alot of this.
> I believe I said this before in another Thread: When Alex's Conclusions are weird or wrong, usually the means by which He got to them isnt too bad, but somehow got misconstrewed.
> When Alex's Conclusions are right, usually the means by which He got to them are weird, or wrong.
> Sometimes theyre just weird, or overphilosophied.
> ...


If I had any doubts that I was confused before I have no doubt that I am confused now and I doubt that your post has clarified any doubts that I have about the said Alex.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 10, 2012)

K-man said:


> If I had any doubts that I was confused before I have no doubt that I am confused now and I doubt that your post has clarified any doubts that I have about the said Alex.



Yeah. Thats why Im still Neutral in all this.


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