# Western influences on Karate development?



## RoniSwersky (Oct 5, 2021)

Hi.
I have recently watched two videos by Jesse Enkemp, the Karate Nerd, about the influence of Western martial arts on the development of Karate. The first one was about the influence of boxing on Japanese culture prompting them to adopt Karate as a form of improved boxing. The second was about Gigo Funakoshi adapting kicks from Savate into Karate. I haven't been able to find any information supporting these videos. Can anyone help me? I would like to write a paper on the subject.
Thanks

This is the video about boxing and karate:





This is the video about Savate and karate:


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## seasoned (Oct 5, 2021)

Welcome to Martial Talk. I hope your stay here is fun and rewarding. I can't help on the above but I'm sure someone will accommodate you.
Enjoy.
MT staff.


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## Buka (Oct 5, 2021)

Welcome to Martial Talk, Roni.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 5, 2021)

RoniSwersky said:


> Hi.
> I have recently watched two videos by Jesse Enkemp, the Karate Nerd, about the influence of Western martial arts on the development of Karate. The first one was about the influence of boxing on Japanese culture prompting them to adopt Karate as a form of improved boxing. The second was about Gigo Funakoshi adapting kicks from Savate into Karate. I haven't been able to find any information supporting these videos. Can anyone help me? I would like to write a paper on the subject.
> Thanks
> 
> ...


As usual, Jesse has shared interesting info and perspectives on karate.  Ironic that the Japanese intention of bringing boxing there also accomplished establishing that karate was an art unto itself and helped it spread in Japan.  The match of the European boxer vs Motobu Choku illustrated the difference between a sport art vs combat art.  Even though Motobu was restricted by rules, he had enough in his TMA toolbox (and his fighting heart) to overcome the bigger guy.  Motobu was one tough SOB.  I'd love to have been sitting ringside.

Regarding savate's influence on karate, it should be noted that_ this mostly applied to sport karate_.  Just as in fencing,  where a longer sword has an advantage (The Russians infamously got caught using an illegal inch too long one at the Olympics years ago) longer range kicks can provide some advantage in competition.

Since Okinawan karate was a close-in fighting style, it lacked many of the kicks seen today.  For example, my style's _kihon_ (core basic techniques) doesn't include roundhouse, crescent or spinning back kicks (A number of Okinawan kata have none or few kicks.)  Once sport karate competition began in Japan, an opportunity opened for longer range attacks.  Since these were not prevalent in karate at that time, savate was looked to to fill that void.

Eventually, these longer range and higher kicks bled into karate mainstream (even in Okinawa to a lesser extent,) so savate's legacy perhaps lives on. Certainly, in forms competition, these kicks provide a thrill for the spectators and  provide additional skills to master and to excite karate students.


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## seasoned (Oct 5, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> As usual, Jesse has shared interesting info and perspectives on karate.  Ironic that the Japanese intention of bringing boxing there also accomplished establishing that karate was an art unto itself and helped it spread in Japan.  The match of the European boxer vs Motobu Choku illustrated the difference between a sport art vs combat art.  Even though Motobu was restricted by rules, he had enough in his TMA toolbox (and his fighting heart) to overcome the bigger guy.  Motobu was one tough SOB.  I'd love to have been sitting ringside.
> 
> Regarding savate's influence on karate, it should be noted that_ this mostly applied to sport karate_.  Just as in fencing,  where a longer sword has an advantage (The Russians infamously got caught using an illegal inch too long one at the Olympics years ago) longer range kicks can provide some advantage in competition.
> 
> ...


Once again a great post on target and on point pertaining to the subject and my art, Okinawan GoJu...


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## RoniSwersky (Oct 5, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> As usual, Jesse has shared interesting info and perspectives on karate.  Ironic that the Japanese intention of bringing boxing there also accomplished establishing that karate was an art unto itself and helped it spread in Japan.  The match of the European boxer vs Motobu Choku illustrated the difference between a sport art vs combat art.  Even though Motobu was restricted by rules, he had enough in his TMA toolbox (and his fighting heart) to overcome the bigger guy.  Motobu was one tough SOB.  I'd love to have been sitting ringside.
> 
> Regarding savate's influence on karate, it should be noted that_ this mostly applied to sport karate_.  Just as in fencing,  where a longer sword has an advantage (The Russians infamously got caught using an illegal inch too long one at the Olympics years ago) longer range kicks can provide some advantage in competition.
> 
> ...


Great. Thanks a lot. Very helpful.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 6, 2021)

RoniSwersky said:


> Great. Thanks a lot. Very helpful.


Just rephrased Jesse Enkemp video and put in a little new context, but glad you guys liked it.

Since the OP referenced Motobu Choki, some may have interest in my new post (#94) in the topic, _The Proper Horse Stance,_ where that stance's role in kata and kumite is explored in surprising (to me) length.  Hey, I just follow the path that unfolds in front of me.

I had no idea where it would lead, beyond saying horse stance had little use in fighting.  As it turns out, I led myself in an unanticipated direction, meeting up with Motobu again!  I discovered there was more to the topic than I figured as I delved into it.  This is one of the things I like about _Martial Chat - _Not only can you learn from others, but thinking about those posts, you can learn from yourself as well.


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## RoniSwersky (Oct 6, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Just rephrased Jesse Enkemp video and put in a little new context, but glad you guys liked it.
> 
> Since the OP referenced Motobu Choki, some may have interest in my new post (#94) in the topic, _The Proper Horse Stance,_ where that stance's role in kata and kumite is explored in surprising (to me) length.  Hey, I just follow the path that unfolds in front of me.
> 
> I had no idea where it would lead, beyond saying horse stance had little use in fighting.  As it turns out, I led myself in an unanticipated direction, meeting up with Motobu again!  I discovered there was more to the topic than I figured as I delved into it.  This is one of the things I like about _Martial Chat - _Not only can you learn from others, but thinking about those posts, you can learn from yourself as well.


Thanks. I can't find the post you're referring to. Can you link it to me? Also, do you know of any articles or other sources about the influence of boxing on Japan and karate?


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 6, 2021)

RoniSwersky said:


> Thanks. I can't find the post you're referring to. Can you link it to me? Also, do you know of any articles or other sources about the influence of boxing on Japan and karate?


Look up "What's New" on the bar above.  "The Proper Horse Stance" was an older thread recently come back to life.

IMO there has not been too much influence from boxing in the development of karate.  What there is would be post WWII, I think, maybe even post 1960, when Western youth started competing in karate tournaments and were familiar with boxing from the super popular Mohammad Ali and his agile footwork.  All the guys then wanted to "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee."  Much of karate's physical and mental doctrine conflicts with boxing's, so I don't see much relation.


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## letsplaygames (Oct 10, 2021)

RoniSwersky said:


> Hi.
> I have recently watched two videos by Jesse Enkemp, the Karate Nerd, about the influence of Western martial arts on the development of Karate. The first one was about the influence of boxing on Japanese culture prompting them to adopt Karate as a form of improved boxing. The second was about Gigo Funakoshi adapting kicks from Savate into Karate. I haven't been able to find any information supporting these videos. Can anyone help me? I would like to write a paper on the subject.
> Thanks




_I can't speak for Karate outside Shotokan.  But the reason "You can Find any information"  like the infamous Motobo vs the Boxer, there is little or no information that exists of such claims within Shotokan._

_Yoshitaka (or Gigo) Funakoshi "DID NOT ADAPT KICKS form Savate.  Fact,  there is NO evidence what so ever that GIGO developed Mawashi Geri. (read below for who developed Shotokan's Mawashi Geri)

*I Love Jesse the Kararte Nurd excitement on Karate...unsure were he gets his information,  Clueless on his inability to fact check!!!!*

If karate in Japan did draw influence from Western boxing pre WWII it would have been in the Shito Ryu branch or.... the various Okinawan branches in Okinawa.  But.. I still think its highly unlikely due to Western Boxing not being all that well known.* (Japan and Okinawa was pretty Xenophobic at that time)* 

Much of the departure from Okinawan Karate to "What we now think of as "Japanese" Karate" stems from  *Takeshi Shimoda:* a Ninpo *Taijutsu* master, he becomes  Funakoshi's best student, his number #1 unfortunately he dies early, in 1934 in his 30s.    Shimoda heavily influenced *Yoshitaka Funakoshi and others with his infusion of Nimpo Taijustu  * Yoshitaka Funakoshi took Takeshi sensei's influences and developed them.  (the break or the departure all point to Takeshi Shimoda with Yoshitaka Funakoshi picking up the baton after his unexpected death) _

_Below is Takeshi Shimoda with Funakoshi Sensei)    

*


*_

Nakayama Sensei  (seen far right)




He is the developer of Mawashi Geri and and Ushiro geri. Nakayama Sensei, after he graduated from Takushoku University in 1937 learned the kicks by practicing with Han Chinese (ChangQuan Quan fa... ala Chinese long fist, while in the Military in Manchuria as an interpreter.

Maybe... just maybe... Yoshitaka Funikoshi  developed Yojo Geri Keage   which appears pretty specific to Shotokan, but IMO... if so ... it's still due to Takeshi Shimoda's influence.

If boxing influences Shotokan it's after WWII in the 50s... and Savate... well there is no records of that ever influencing Shotokan that I have ever come across 

Hope this clarifies things


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## Flying Crane (Oct 10, 2021)

I am always skeptical of claims that a certain specific event, or a series of events over a very brief period, caused an entire cultural methodology like karate, to be overhauled.  

Different methodologies often influence each other, and it is usually a two-way street.  But wholesale changes don’t usually happen that quickly nor can be definitively traced to a specific event.  I’m just skeptical.

Maybe the real truth is that these events sparked a new side branch in the art that was focused on competition, and these changes became prominent within that context.  At various times and for various people, the competition aspect may have received a bigger focus, but that is not for everyone.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 10, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Maybe the real truth is that these events sparked a new side branch in the art that was focused on competition, and these changes became prominent within that context. At various times and for various people, the competition aspect may have received a bigger focus, but that is not for everyone.


Competition can be like a virus, taking the art's DNA and subverting it to its own purpose of self-perpetuation.  In doing so, in may incorporate other arts and influences into its DNA, as well as delete elements from its host, as long as it aids in its own self interest.  

Many new rules and procedures have been instituted in competitive karate that have nothing to do with the business of kumite, or even kata.  Standardization, sanitation, marching up to the ring and exaggerated bowing and kiai's, and spectatorship have become important elements for example. They have little to do with karate itself, but _more to do with the self-perpetuation of the competition scene and sponsoring organizations._

If you take a look at video of the old masters, you can see their kata reflects understated power and control, and perhaps a hint of deadliness, but none of them would come close to winning any modern competition.  Their forms just aren't pretty enough.  Little formality in their starts and endings - just a simple relaxed bow.  Often, no kiai's at all.  But, katas were not originated to look pretty, or even to be looked at at all by the public.

So the art mutates into something different from the original, with different goals and outcomes.  This is, in and of itself, not bad.  But modern sport karate should be recognized for what it is - a mutated version of the TMA with its own agenda and self-interests.  As long as subtracting original, or adding new, elements from other arts into sport karate aids in its own propagation, the trend will continue.


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## Buka (Oct 10, 2021)

I think all styles should evolve. If you see and learn a better way to do something that you do - and don't incorporate it into your art, that seems crazy to me. Why wouldn't you? For the sake of tradition?


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 10, 2021)

Buka said:


> I think all styles should evolve. If you see and learn a better way to do something that you do - and don't incorporate it into your art, that seems crazy to me. Why wouldn't you? For the sake of tradition?


Buka, you didn't lead your post with a quote, so since it came right after mine, I'll respond as if you're referring to it.  If not, just consider this an extension of my last one.

Nothing wrong with your statement, _IF_ you consider competition a style, and the evolution is "better."   Better for whom?  The competitors or the "powers that be?"

You're an old guy (like me) who competed when grabs, takedowns, sweeps, groin shots, etc. were the rule.  We didn't have to wear XX assoc. approved color coordinated pads and belts, measure how long our gi top came down to the thigh, march like military school cadets or submit to limited techniques and targets. _ Are such things better for the competitor?_  If not, then the "tradition" is better than what it has evolved into.

You had promoters like Parker and Banks that were open tournament powers, but they were still individuals (TKD's Rhee did have a loose tournament organization).  They did little to bind the competitors into molds and restrict their style.  The organizations behind much of the major competition now are different.

It just seems to me that the competitors (and indirectly the art) are being controlled by the sponsoring organizations' templates which _really squashes evolution.  The practitioners and masters of the art are not the one's instituting the changes_, the tournament organizations are. And as in any organization, they function for their own good and existence.

Maybe I'm just being old fashioned, but competition used to be a part of the practitioners' art, not an end to itself.  Too many rules and scoring guidelines are restrictive and skew the "natural" evolution of the art to some tournament group's preconceived notion of how it should be.  IMO that would be a poor future for TMA.


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## RoniSwersky (Oct 10, 2021)

Paul Calugaru said:


> _I can't speak for Karate outside Shotokan.  But the reason "You can Find any information"  like the infamous Motobo vs the Boxer, there is little or no information that exists of such claims within Shotokan._
> 
> _Yoshitaka (or Gigo) Funakoshi "DID NOT ADAPT KICKS form Savate.  Fact,  there is NO evidence what so ever that GIGO developed Mawashi Geri. (read below for who developed Shotokan's Mawashi Geri)
> 
> ...


Yes. Thank you. That helps a lot.


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## Buka (Oct 11, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Buka, you didn't lead your post with a quote, so since it came right after mine, I'll respond as if you're referring to it.  If not, just consider this an extension of my last one.
> 
> Nothing wrong with your statement, _IF_ you consider competition a style, and the evolution is "better."   Better for whom?  The competitors or the "powers that be?"
> 
> ...


I completely agree, I really do. But let's take the competition factor out of it. Let's say there are no Martial competitions at all, anywhere, they don't even exist. If you run a school or teach as an assistant, and if somebody shows you something that you have never even had an idea about, and you deem it really important.....

Or if someone shows someone else a much better way to do something that they already do - after the obvious study, learning curve and rigorous testing of what was just shared, how  could they not implement it into their style?  And it's okay if that someone doesn't have the authority to add to a style/system, at the very least how could they not share it with their students - you know, kind of off the books.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 11, 2021)

Buka said:


> I completely agree, I really do. But let's take the competition factor out of it. Let's say there are no Martial competitions at all, anywhere, they don't even exist. If you run a school or teach as an assistant, and if somebody shows you something that you have never even had an idea about, and you deem it really important.....
> 
> Or if someone shows someone else a much better way to do something that they already do - after the obvious study, learning curve and rigorous testing of what was just shared, how  could they not implement it into their style?  And it's okay if that someone doesn't have the authority to add to a style/system, at the very least how could they not share it with their students - you know, kind of off the books.


What would be some examples?

My impression (and I could be wrong here) is that a lot of what people tend to think about is techniques or bodies of techniques when they are talking about this kind of thing.  Sort of like… the whole, “you need to include X and Y and Z in your training or your skills are incomplete and you have holes in your training.”  Often it is the idea that a person training in a primarily striking method needs to add some kind of grappling to their toolkit, and vice-versa.  

My personal opinion is that there is very little adherence to tradition purely for the sake of preservation of a historical artifact.  I realize there are some old koryu arts for which this is a primary motive, but outside of that I don’t believe it is very common.  However I do believe that a lot of people may not properly understand how a traditional method should continue to be relevant today. 

In my experience, it isn’t about the techniques, specifically.  Rather, the traditional method is more like a physical education that teaches one to move quickly, powerfully, and efficiently, and how to deliver technique with devastating results.  The techniques taught within the method embody the concepts and the principles, but should not be viewed as the content of the method.  Rather, they are simply options, among many options.  

In this way, once you understand the physical education of it, you can use it to do anything that you want.  Including spontaneous reactions, or adapting a body of techniques that were not part of the original training.  As long as they function according to the principles of the method, then they have a place within the method.  

So a TMA that is properly understood can become anything that one wants it to be, even if that looks different from what others are doing with it.  Don’t be limited by what you were taught.  Don’t see the method as establishing limitations.  Rather, see it as a platform on which you can build anything that you want. 

So then the notion of learning a “better” way sort of becomes irrelevant because one is always doing just that, insofar as it is compatible with one’s personal interests.


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## Steve (Oct 11, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Buka, you didn't lead your post with a quote, so since it came right after mine, I'll respond as if you're referring to it.  If not, just consider this an extension of my last one.
> 
> Nothing wrong with your statement, _IF_ you consider competition a style, and the evolution is "better."   Better for whom?  The competitors or the "powers that be?"
> 
> ...


What’s stopping you guys from organizing and hosting these kinds of competitions?  Genuine question


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 11, 2021)

Buka said:


> Or if someone shows someone else a much better way to do something that they already do - after the obvious study, learning curve and rigorous testing of what was just shared, how could they not implement it into their style? And it's okay if that someone doesn't have the authority to add to a style/system, at the very least how could they not share it with their students - you know, kind of off the books.


Taking the competition aspect out of the equation leaves the system/style as the star.  Evolution will happen over time based on adjustments to make the system more effective, as it has for the past three centuries.  However, one just can't willy-nilly add stuff to it or it will become a sloppy MMA and the style will lose any individual identity and cease to exist. 

Any changes to the style should be done by one who completely understands it (as by the master, or by other seniors and approved by him).  This will insure the new stuff will work harmonious with the style and truly be an improvement. Is it OK for an instructor to teach other handy self-defense stuff?  Sure.  I agree with you.  Being "off the books" is fine, as long it is made known and kept separate.

Tradition vs pragmatism must be well balanced.  If pragmatism alone is used as a standard, knife and gun skills would become a part of the style and we'd all be second rate SEALs, for example.  Keeping tradition will pass on the history and the "do" (path) part and keep the art as something more than just fighting. This idea is not new.  Kung fu has a long history of Taoist influence, the Samurai had their own styles and codes, and even the grandfather of karate, "Bushi" (Warrior) Matsumura in the mid-late 1800's passed on the _Seven Virtues of Bu_.

It boils down to one's own personal view of MA, or more specifically, TMA.  We all choose what's important to us in life, to improve ourselves in ways that best fit us. For some, "the way" is the main thing; for others, being fit and healthy is; for others, pure fighting ability is the goal.  For some, like me, it's all three.

Luckily, there are systems and schools out there that offer a variety of arts and skills.  No need to rank them as to value, except in relation to ourselves.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 11, 2021)

Steve said:


> What’s stopping you guys from organizing and hosting these kinds of competitions?  Genuine question


Got $20,000 you'd like to contribute?  I'll make you an Associate Director.  

Actually there still are some of those traditional tourneys around, but are harder to find, especially bigger ones.  The trend seems to be in the other direction I talked about.  Hope it doesn't squeeze out the "old" style tournaments still around.


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## Buka (Oct 11, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> What would be some examples?
> 
> My impression (and I could be wrong here) is that a lot of what people tend to think about is techniques or bodies of techniques when they are talking about this kind of thing.  Sort of like… the whole, “you need to include X and Y and Z in your training or your skills are incomplete and you have holes in your training.”  Often it is the idea that a person training in a primarily striking method needs to add some kind of grappling to their toolkit, and vice-versa.
> 
> ...


We are in complete agreement.


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## Buka (Oct 11, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Taking the competition aspect out of the equation leaves the system/style as the star.  Evolution will happen over time based on adjustments to make the system more effective, as it has for the past three centuries.  However, one just can't willy-nilly add stuff to it or it will become a sloppy MMA and the style will lose any individual identity and cease to exist.
> 
> Any changes to the style should be done by one who completely understands it (as by the master, or by other seniors and approved by him).  This will insure the new stuff will work harmonious with the style and truly be an improvement. Is it OK for an instructor to teach other handy self-defense stuff?  Sure.  I agree with you.  Being "off the books" is fine, as long it is made known and kept separate.
> 
> ...


As with @Flying Crane , we are in complete agreement.


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## Steve (Oct 12, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Got $20,000 you'd like to contribute?  I'll make you an Associate Director.
> 
> Actually there still are some of those traditional tourneys around, but are harder to find, especially bigger ones.  The trend seems to be in the other direction I talked about.  Hope it doesn't squeeze out the "old" style tournaments still around.


 I hear you.  Money can be a barrier, but I don't think that's insurmountable.  My concern in your post is the lack of agency is suggests.  What I mean is, you describe the changes in the tournament format as though they were inevitable... something no one could do anything about.  In some cases, maybe that's true, but in this case, I don't buy it.  In particular, guys like you and Buka, who probably have a century's worth of experience between you, could find some younger guys with a vigorous desire to test their mettle in an old school tournament format. 

In the grappling world, it's kind of crazy how many different formats pop up, and it's really good for the art.  I bet if you (or someone like you) organized a tournament as you described, it would be very popular, and probably very good for the art as a whole.  And if you did a decent job, you'd probably make a little money... enough to hold another one, maybe.


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## SahBumNimRush (Oct 12, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Got $20,000 you'd like to contribute?  I'll make you an Associate Director.
> 
> Actually there still are some of those traditional tourneys around, but are harder to find, especially bigger ones.  The trend seems to be in the other direction I talked about.  Hope it doesn't squeeze out the "old" style tournaments still around.


The Sabaki Challenge is the only one that quickly comes to mind, as far as bigger events.


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## letsplaygames (Oct 16, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Competition can be like a virus, taking the art's DNA and subverting it to its own purpose of self-perpetuation.  In doing so, in may incorporate other arts and influences into its DNA, as well as delete elements from its host, as long as it aids in its own self interest.
> 
> Many new rules and procedures have been instituted in competitive karate that have nothing to do with the business of kumite, or even kata.  Standardization, sanitation, marching up to the ring and exaggerated bowing and kiai's, and spectatorship have become important elements for example. They have little to do with karate itself, but _more to do with the self-perpetuation of the competition scene and sponsoring organizations._
> 
> ...


Good post!


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 16, 2021)

_addressing the OP_
I would be cautious about things Jesse E. Puts on line. I'm not saying anything bad about Jesse, it's just that he is a content creator and he is in constant need to make posts. That leads to making mountains out of mole hills.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 16, 2021)

hoshin1600 said:


> _addressing the OP_
> I would be cautious about things Jesse E. Puts on line. I'm not saying anything bad about Jesse, it's just that he is a content creator and he is in constant need to make posts. That leads to making mountains out of mole hills.


Yes, he tends to sensationalize some topics a bit, but as you say, he wants to attract viewership.  This has on occasion led his posts to emphasize a questionable point, but for the most part his stuff is very good.  And he is a serious karate-ka, who has spent some time with a number of masters (I'm jealous) and is an excellent technician.  His posts have educated many on the methods, background, and little known facts of karate, and so, in general, I think he has done a good job representing the art to the public - much better than the majority of stuff you find on you-tube.


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