# sparring



## rachel (Jan 26, 2003)

Is sparring necessary for training? my school only has sparring for kids and teens not adults. We do self defense techniques but not sparring.someone said that people were getting too rough and the teacher didn't want anyone getting hurt. I can understand not wanting people to get hurt but the instructor should make sure people aren't going crazy but doing it properly. If sparring is necessary to round out the training maybe I should be in a different school? what do you think?


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rachel _
> *Is sparring necessary for training? my school only has sparring for kids and teens not adults. We do self defense techniques but not sparring.someone said that people were getting too rough and the teacher didn't want anyone getting hurt. I can understand not wanting people to get hurt but the instructor should make sure people aren't going crazy but doing it properly. If sparring is necessary to round out the training maybe I should be in a different school? what do you think? *



So what you're saying is there is no sparring whatsoever in the adult classes and can you elaborate a bit more on this?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## rachel (Jan 26, 2003)

basically there's no sparring for adults in my school. One of the brown belts said people were getting out of control because they had protective gear on and were too rough because they thought they couldn't get hurt or hurt other people. But kids have it because my friends daughter is a purple belt and she has to buy sparring equipment for her. If it is a neccessary part of  training and we can't do it as adults I should learn it somewhere right? so that means another school whether I supplement my training with it or I pull out of this school and go to one that does sparring.what would you do? my daughter goes to this school too but I'll leave her in this school and go to the other myself if necessary


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rachel _
> *basically there's no sparring for adults in my school. One of the brown belts said people were getting out of control because they had protective gear on and were too rough because they thought they couldn't get hurt or hurt other people. But kids have it because my friends daughter is a purple belt and she has to buy sparring equipment for her. If it is a neccessary part of  training and we can't do it as adults I should learn it somewhere right? so that means another school whether I supplement my training with it or I pull out of this school and go to one that does sparring.what would you do? my daughter goes to this school too but I'll leave her in this school and go to the other myself if necessary *



WOWWWW, I've never heard of that one before.    Sparring, in my opinion is an ABSOLUTE necessity and should never be left out because there's no equipment or people are going to hard.    It's the instructors position to take matters into his hands when that is happening, and we've booted more than our fair share of people out of the studio who couldn't control themselves, with a bit of hurt on top.    People such as these are bullies and if not controlled, can create havoc in a studio and hurt some nice people.   I've done my fair share of BOUNCING in the studio for ruffian like these and they usually leave with their tails between their legs and sore ribs and a black eye or bloody nose, and I've never felt guilty about it either.    The gear problem is a simple one, go buy some or buy some the instructor has and get sparring.

If you're instructor is reluctant or opposed I would seek training elsewhere.   I have another question, do you make any sort of contact when performing the SD techniques on each other or the instructor, and what else did you do on your yellow belt test for those hours if you didn't spar?


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## rachel (Jan 26, 2003)

we have contact but we drop each other gently so no one gets hurt. we have the idea of waht to do but we don't slam anyone down hard. The yellow belt test was blocks , kicks , low horse stance for 20 minutes,stuff like that. no contact of any kind.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rachel _
> *we have contact but we drop each other gently so no one gets hurt. we have the idea of waht to do but we don't slam anyone down hard. The yellow belt test was blocks , kicks , low horse stance for 20 minutes,stuff like that. no contact of any kind. *



Oh well, not everyone forges their students in the flame of Kenpo.   As a rule we go easy at first and harder as the rank gets higher and by the time they're BB's,  they've been tempered pretty well.    If you saw our Wed. nite class you would probably drop your jaw and teeth when you see the BB's go at it, and the beauty is, it's give only as hard as you can take and we have one helluva good time.    Guess we're just old school.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## rachel (Jan 26, 2003)

I asked if I could watch a black belt class and was told they don't like to be watched because it distracts them because they do very complicated things. oh well. It would be nice to see my instructor in action at his highest level instead of just training us yellow belts.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rachel _
> *I asked if I could watch a black belt class and was told they don't like to be watched because it distracts them because they do very complicated things. oh well. It would be nice to see my instructor in action at his highest level instead of just training us yellow belts. *



I hope you haven't signed a contract cuz it sounds like your grabbing ankles right now if you're putting up with that BS.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## rachel (Jan 26, 2003)

we pay a month at a time. no contract.I can leave anytime I want to. no problem.


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 26, 2003)

Sparring is a very important part of your training. One must spar to get used to being hit at partial to full power. This way you won't get surprised on the street when you get hit really hard.


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## bahenlaura (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rachel _
> *basically there's no sparring for adults in my school. One of the brown belts said people were getting out of control because they had protective gear on and were too rough because they thought they couldn't get hurt or hurt other people. But kids have it because my friends daughter is a purple belt and she has to buy sparring equipment for her. If it is a neccessary part of  training and we can't do it as adults I should learn it somewhere right? so that means another school whether I supplement my training with it or I pull out of this school and go to one that does sparring.what would you do? my daughter goes to this school too but I'll leave her in this school and go to the other myself if necessary *



Rachel,

Have you ever had Hammberger without meat? it is just not hammberger!
Well, My friend Kenpo or in that matter any Martial(War) art without the fighting part will not be a Martial Art now! Would it? I will start looking for a school that will teach you the whole package.
yours,
Burt


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## Chronuss (Jan 27, 2003)

okay...I'm speaking for myself.  I LOVE SPARRING.  if I hadn't been introduced to contact sparring, I don't where'd I be.  when I studied TKD, it was no contact nonsense.  bleh.     then I started this Kenpo stuff and was shown the true way of the Force.  ...yes...the force of Seig's fist to my chest....


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## Katie Simmons (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rachel _
> *we pay a month at a time. no contract.I can leave anytime I want to. no problem. *



All right then, honey. Get the hell out of there. Any instructor who does not have the focus to work out with people watching or let his students spar because he is too weak to control the contact is not worth a cent or any of your precious time. Good luck in finding a better school.


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## Michael Billings (Jan 27, 2003)

OK, so it is late and I am tired, that explains my bad puns for a subject.  I take little responsibility for this post . .. just kidding :rofl: .

In my school you have to spar, in all the myriad of variations: 

Tournament (little emphasis)
Street - multiple opponents
Continuous (my favorite)
Grappling (combat grappling)
Knives 

I did find however, that the advanced classes were intimidating the beginners, and enough so that they did not want to try it.  Simple solution, teach them to spar.  I tried this in the context of regular classes.  We did lots of shadow boxing for basics, some rhythm sparring (credit to Dave Thomas and his wife) and even some slow sparring alternating offensive with defensive.  This only picked up a few people.  I had to actually create another class for Beginning Sparring.  It is now the most widely attended class of any of mine.  

I really think it helps to limit the contact, or perceived level of contact, as compared to aggresive blue - green belts, through black.  Of course we all know that you are more likely to get injured by a white or yellow belt, who has limited experience, but lots of adreneline and little control.  This is not just the 250 lb muscle guys, but also the 5 foot nothing women who get to hit someone for the first time and are actually executing strikes the way they are taught, instead of relying on muscle mass, the way some of the big guys do. 

The instructor really needs to stay on top of this class, and ensure things don't escalate inadvertantly.  Beginners in general, just do not realize how hard they hit.  It is an erroneous belief, or a thinking error (in re-reading this post I see I should have just used the word "mistaken belief" instead of the high falutin' politically correct catch phrases), to believe that just because someone is hitting you hard, they can take an equal amount of punishment back.  Sometimes they just don't know how hard they hit, and if we let it continue, someone eventually gets hurt.  Beginners are not self-correcting when someone hits them hard after they hit hard, they don't get this as a message, rather they hit hard back.  It is easy to miss the escalation due to the general level of proficiency and chaos that can surround a beginning sparring class.  There is no indicator that they are going too hard until you have a bloody nose (yes, I have face contact for all belts, but "Light only", for a variety of reasons that can be discussed later), or someone has to stop due to pain.

I ENCOURAGE COMMUNICATION and set the perameters prior to starting the round.  Few guys will admit to or say "you are hitting me too hard, slow it down a bit."  They need to, but they don't!.  So I try to emphasize they learn to communicate BEFORE the fight, and maintain an active analysis of themselves, their opponents, and the ENVIRONMENT (this somewhat keeps their mind off the fight or flight thing.)

As you see, you gotta spar in my book.  One of the only things that gets you ready for sparring rounds, is doing rounds.  Great conditioning and exercise.  Do not limit your sparring - try it all, graft into techniques, try the freestyle sparring basics, apply Striking Set as it was designed, learn ranges, how it feel to be punched or kicked at, and how it feels to block or get hit.  You have to know what to expect physically in a real fight, and the fight is not the place to find it out!  

You also have to Spar if you want to be able to teach it later in your Martial Arts career.  It is a part of a well rounded martial arts repertoire, and one of the 4 legs the Kenpo System is built on.  

Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com


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## Handsword (Jan 27, 2003)

I agree that sparring is a fundamental part of realistic martial arts training.  There is nothing like having an opponent trying to attack you in an unknown way while you can also initiate the offensive.  

However, in a small class, sparring can start to become unrealistic as you develop skills specific to other student's fighting styles.  It becomes a case of Kenpo vs Kenpo.  

To overcome this, I sometimes introduce themes to sparring.  For example, I may tell one half of the class that for the next round they are determined to restrain with their left and repetitively strike with their right hand (a over-confident mindset in their 'knockout punch').  

This has maximum effect if the other half of the class is unaware of what fighting style they will be using.  After a while the person with the predetermined mindset is at a definate disadvantage, however, right at the start of the round is where anything can happen and this is where the skills (eg. reading body language etc) need to be developed.

If Kenpo aims to defeat an attacker within a few seconds, then the differences between this and a 3 minute round must be identified.



> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *  It is a part of a well rounded martial arts repertoire, and one of the 4 legs the Kenpo System is built on.
> 
> *



I'm interested to know what these four legs are.  I would guess:

forms,
techniques,
sparring,

but what would the 4th leg be?


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## Michael Billings (Jan 27, 2003)

BASICS of course.  

I have not done Theme specific sparring in terms of limiting weapons, save to the extent I occassionaly say "hands only" or "lower body" only" for attackers.  Sounds like something I may try.

Oss,
-Michael
KenpoTexas.com


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## Brother John (Jan 27, 2003)

Although I do think that sparring is greatly overemphasized in most schools, and (stickin my neck out) by my brother's here in this very thread...
it is A feature of a school. 
ASK your instructor why it's not present, YET. There may be a very good explanation.
It does boil down to this though: if your school/instructor doesn't give you what you are looking for....
go elsewhere.

Your Brother
John


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rachel _
> *I asked if I could watch a black belt class and was told they don't like to be watched because it distracts them because they do very complicated things. oh well. It would be nice to see my instructor in action at his highest level instead of just training us yellow belts. *



What kind of black belts does he have? C'mon, if you can't focus on a technique then it's only logical you don't want them sparring, lol.

Now, seriously, sparring is not something I love, but at least I know it's something I must do if I wanna be a complete martial artist. So yes, LOOK FOR ANOTHER SCHOOL ASAP


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## Cthulhu (Jan 29, 2003)

Sparring is essential in learning how to properly gauge distance in a moving, dynamic environment.  And as crude as it sounds, at some point, you need to experience getting hit.  Many martial artists train without any real contact and when they get in a real fight, they lose it when hit for the first time.

Cthulhu


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## rachel (Jan 29, 2003)

I'll ask him tonight and see what he says. I want to watch that black belt class too.


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## brianhunter (Jan 29, 2003)

Hey John!?!? What happened to the avatar doing the Pee Pee dance???? This guy is cool but doesnt force you to stare at him forever :toilclaw:






> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *Although I do think that sparring is greatly overemphasized in most schools, and (stickin my neck out) by my brother's here in this very thread...
> it is A feature of a school.
> ASK your instructor why it's not present, YET. There may be a very good explanation.
> ...


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## Cthulhu (Jan 29, 2003)

Another thing sparring does is let you try techniques you were taught, to see if they'll work in a dynamic, evolving situation rather than the static situations most techniques are taught in.  If you can't get something to work, it's a bad technique or you're just doing it wrong 

Cthulhu


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## Brother John (Jan 29, 2003)

> Hey John!?!? What happened to the avatar doing the Pee Pee dance????



He finally made it to the toilet! 
Your Brother (who always puts the lid back down)
John
:flushed:


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 29, 2003)

As somebody who's sparred with Clyde the Evil One over the years and lived, without even getting anything broken--dented is another issue--I'd argue that a) sparring is essential, b) sparring is sometimes overemphasized, c) sparring is neither fighting nor self-defense, d) it's absurd for a teacher to be saying something that boils down to, "I can't have sparring, because I can't control my students and their classes."

Are you sure, Rachel, that that's what's up? It is possible that this particular instructor has a particular group that needs to go forward very carefully...and will be bangin' away later...but that description of, "a low horse stance for twenty minutes," as part of a test, and those accounts of doing techniques ("so we get the idea") don't sound so good to me.  Among other things, if you don't get hit a bit, even at white and yellow belt, you are NOT getting "the idea," and if you don't hit the other guy you are NOT learning control. By the way, it's a bit dangerous for your back to lower the dummy gently to the floor. 

It's possible to run structured sparring drills. In my school (Larry Tatum's, actually), they're on the backs of the technique/belt requirement cards: if you find stuff that's labeled, "B1a, B1b....KB1a, etc." that's what that is. These take a lot of the guesswork and flailing out of sparring---and still allow you to work on range, keeping your guard up, watching stancework and foot maneuvers, dealing with the fear of getting hit, and so forth. In fact, I should start working them from blue belt up again...hm.

Anyway, I dunno. It's hard to be a beginning student:  you can't just be skeptical, because you don't have much to be skeptical with and your mind will play tricks on you to get you to quit; you can't be gullible, because there are fakes and fools out there teaching...


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## GouRonin (Jan 29, 2003)

I think sparring is essential. That said I would not tell you to stay or leave your school. That is your choice and people have different needs and wants.
:iws:
Yes everyone. It was me who said that!


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## Robbo (Jan 29, 2003)

> but we drop each other gently so no one gets hurt



How do you learn how to fall properly? Some of the takedowns and throws are designed to make your opponent fall in an awkward way, but most can be done with full speed and controlled power if your partner knows how to fall (breakfalls).

Rather that 'trying' not to hurt anybody this should be treated as an oppourtunity for the attacker to practise their falling while the defender practises their defense(s).

If you do learn falling and rolling, you should be able to apply it here. Heck you should be able to apply it in a sparring situation the odd time  

Rob


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## Jill666 (Jan 29, 2003)

I agree sparring is essential to MA study. You don't need to learn tournament-quality point sparring if you don't want, but many men and women haven't been hit. Ever. The experience of having a hand in your face, a foot in your groin, even without the pain is something that we all must get used to. Also, we all tend to have blind spots or ineffective reactions to certain strikes, and won't know it until we get hit. How can you develop an effective defense without the experience? 

As for contact, well, that's been well-covered here. 

You should also be swept, dropped, and thrown so you learn how not to break something falling. Have fun!


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## Old Warrior (Jan 29, 2003)

The MOST important role of sparring is learning the ability to control fright and the flight reflex.  Learning to remain calm while faced with the threat of imminent physical harm is a lesson that cannot be learned in prearranged practice of any kind.


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## Klondike93 (Jan 29, 2003)

> Sparring is a very important part of your training. One must spar to get used to being hit at partial to full power



Don't tell this to the Russians  

The kenpo school I go to doesn't spar either, but I have been told if I or others want to, then go ahead and have fun. After being in systema for a year now, I've changed my opinion on how important point or continous sparring is in training. The self defense techniques are done with moderate contact and sometimes someone gets hurt but not bad. I think this is where the instructor feels one should learn to deal with the fight or flight reflex. 


:asian:


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 30, 2003)

I agree. Technique lines are a lot scarier, in many ways, than sparring. And I darn sure know that I'm going to get hit harder, in a tech line, than I am in sparring...

While I agree that sparring is essential, I don't agree with the philosophy of throw the beginner in there and wail away. A few will learn...most will quit, if they've a grain of sense.


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## Kirk (Jan 30, 2003)

I've been told that if you have a good partner to work flow drills
on, *the correct way*, then you can build up speeds that
will make a punch look slow.  As if you were being attacked by
a snail.


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## Blindside (Jan 30, 2003)

> I've been told that if you have a good partner to work flow drills on, the correct way, then you can build up speeds that
> will make a punch look slow. As if you were being attacked by
> a snail.



I'd like to hear about these flow drills.... hell, I'd like to hear about anything that makes a punch seem slow, besides an adrenaline dump that is.

I fall into the "sparring is essential" club, though in some ways I think our studio has too much of a focus on it.  

On Tuesday we had a local TKD club come watch our Tues night sparring sessions, they apparently don't spar much and they were watching us because they are going to join the sparring class in the near future.  I think we scared them, well at least the students, we know the instructor pretty well.  And we weren't trying to, we were on our best sparring behavior, no takedowns, no ground 'n pound, just nice controlled continuous sparring.  My instructor was showing the TKD club how we ramp up our sparring levels depending on the level of our opponents.  That the point isn't for a black belt to obliterate a white belt, but just to push them a little and to teach them to be better.  I was the lucky example for blackbelt on blackbelt sparring.  Apparently, it is perfectly acceptable for one blackbelt to obliterate another. 



Not that I expected anything less, he usually pushes me to the point where I would be lucky to KO a fly.  I think that is his subtle way of saying "hey dumb@ss your conditioning sucks!" 

The really dumb thing is that I generally enjoy Tuesday nights....

Lamont


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## Kirk (Jan 30, 2003)

Well it definitely won't replace the conditioning.  The flow drills
are filipino flow drills, like Hubud.  Also Zach Whitson's
 counterpoint video has some great flow drills in it.  Supposedly
once you get to the point that you can do them with a partner
full speed, you're seeing a full speed strike coming at you.


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## Blindside (Jan 30, 2003)

Oh, OK, I think what they are referring to is sensing when the punch is coming at you, not actually a slowing of perception.  One WC instructor I knew tried to explain to me how sensory perception through touch are transmitted and processed faster than those of sight.  He cited a bunch of scientific studies to explain this, but even my relatively brief exposure seems to agree with it.  Often people will tense before throwing a shot or other move, and you can sense this change in energy if you are in contact with them. 

The WC, Tai-Chi, and FMA systems live off this theory.  But we have trained this from the clinch and certainly most grappling systems work the same way.

Lamont


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Well it definitely won't replace the conditioning.  The flow drills
> are filipino flow drills, like Hubud.  Also Zach Whitson's
> counterpoint video has some great flow drills in it.  Supposedly
> ...



Did you find a partner to practice this stuff with you yet? It has to be way too hard to do in the air by yourself.


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