# USAT announces historic Kukkiwon special dan testing



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 26, 2008)

Any thoughts on this?  I see both good and the potential for bad.

http://usa-taekwondo.us/news/article/8093

Daniel


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## MasterWright (Dec 26, 2008)

If it was really necessary, I guess it's ok. It could inadvertently help create more of the McDojangs that we have been talking about lately. 

It's only available to U.S. residents, so it does not affect programs in other countries.


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## terryl965 (Dec 26, 2008)

I can see this as a bad thing for the sakeof bad instructors, that might not be able to get one. For those that need this I have one question if you was training all this time why did you not get what you wanted back then? Me I have a semi instructor that is going to skip so he can became a 4th but like I told him if he trained all the time then this would not even be an issue.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 26, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I can see this as a bad thing for the sakeof bad instructors, that might not be able to get one. For those that need this I have one question if you was training all this time why did you not get what you wanted back then? Me I have a semi instructor that is going to skip so he can became a 4th but like I told him if he trained all the time then this would not even be an issue.


 

I see as merely an opportunity. For someone who has intentions to rake in money, they still have to do the actual work of testing. Terry, you've told us all about a guy you know that paid a GM big $$ for the genuine certs. THAT guy isn't gonna walk into a legit test such as this & put his skills on the line. It's too much actual work.


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## terryl965 (Dec 26, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> I see as merely an opportunity. For someone who has intentions to rake in money, they still have to do the actual work of testing. Terry, you've told us all about a guy you know that paid a GM big $$ for the genuine certs. THAT guy isn't gonna walk into a legit test such as this & put his skills on the line. It's too much actual work.


 
Right but the test is merely a formality, if you do the poomsae seminat you do not need to do them for the testing. I was told the actual test is less than an hour, so what is being tested in that short time frame. Yea I forgot the elusove check writing poomsae.

Sorry could not resist everybody.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 26, 2008)

It just seems like another way to make a buck via promoting someone and keeping them in the fold.


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## terrylamar (Dec 26, 2008)

Most of you seem to be a touch cynical.

To me, as they state and I do take it at face value, it is a way to get the rank you have earned recognized by the Kukkiwon.

I think they are doing a great service and saving everyone who test a good deal of money by not having to fly to Korea and test at the Kukkiwon.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 26, 2008)

I'd be interested in the cost of the tests. Are they the same as what the KKW charges instructors, or is a "central" GM or group getting a cut & charging their own prices?


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## terryl965 (Dec 26, 2008)

Here you go Tom if you are wanting a 1-3rd you do not even need be there. The bolded parts are what worry me, if it is not about money why are they charging for three ranks even if you are just getting one.

*Kukkiwon will hold a mandatory 12-16 hour Poomsae seminar on the 13th and 14th of February during the U.S. Open in Las Vegas, with testing to occur either later on the 14th or on the morning of the 15th.  All applicants shall submit a resume of their martial arts history, complete the Kukkiwon forms, and where applicable submit a copy of their current Dan rank certificate. In addition, 4th Dan and higher applicants must take the seminar. 6th Dan and higher applicants must also submit a 10-page thesis on their experience and philosophy of Taekwondo; such as "Taekwondo and My Life". *
"This is an unprecedented and exciting opportunity for Masters to achieve their deserved Kukkiwon ranks," said USAT CEO David Askinas. "We are hoping to receive a positive response from the taekwondo community so we can schedule the testing event in Las Vegas at U.S. Open."
USAT will be posting *application forms guidelines* on this website.  We will want your current Kukkiwon Rank, your desired rank, and a letter detailing the reasons why you believe your promotion is justified.  The applications will be reviewed by USAT and the Martial Arts Commissions for acceptability and forwarded to Kukkiwon for final review.  Applicants who meet all necessary requirements to qualify for testing will receive notice of approval their application in advance of the test date.
"This is a remarkable and rare opportunity to make Taekwondo history," added Martial Arts Commission Chairman Grand Master JP Choi. "Every eligible Taekwondo Dan holder in the USA should embrace this moment with enthusiasm and apply for promotion without delay. The chance may never come again." 
*Fees for testing will be charged in the following manner and are due at the time the application is received.  An applicant will be charged for a maximum of three Dan rank tests regardless of the number of ranks involved in the test. For example, if an applicant is applying for the new Kukkiwon Rank Recognition Test or seeking a Skip Dan Test, he/she will be charged only for the three highest rank test fees. For example, a 3d Dan seeking 7th Dan would pay fees only for 5th, 6th, and 7th  Dan. Similarly, an applicant seeking a Rank Recognition test for 7th Dan, will also only pay test fees for the three highest testing ranks (in this case, 5th, 6th, and 7th Dan-). If only one or two rank promotions are being sought, the applicant will be charged for those requested ranks.*
The planned test is conditioned upon 70 approved physical test (4th-7th Dan and/ or those who are skipping three Dans) applications from Kukkiwon. 
*1st Dan-3rd Dan applicants do not have to take a physical test and are not required to be in attendance at the testing*.  However, these applicants are strongly encouraged to attend and compete at the U.S. Open and attend the poomse seminar, which will be taught by the best instructors from Kukkiwon.
It is important that all applicants submit their applications and other materials not later than *January 7, 2009*. USAT and the Martial Arts Commission will promptly review the applications and submit them to Kukkiwon. Kukkiwon will issue notice of approval in time for travel arrangements to be made. Should the test not go forward in Las Vegas in February, the back up plan is to hold it in July in conjunction with the Junior Olympics and Senior Nationals which will be held in Austin, Texas.
Another special testing opportunity for 8th and 9th Dan will be offered later in 2009 by the Kukkiwon if all applicants meet the Kukkiwon requirements.
Please address all questions to USAT CEO David Askinas david.askinas@usa-taekwondo.us or Grandmaster Joon Pyo Choi, Co-Chairman of the USAT Martial Arts Commission  jpchoi@moogong.com.


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## terrylamar (Dec 26, 2008)

Cost of the actual Kukkiwon Test, varies by Dan.  If you are skipping grades, you will be charged, only, for the last three ranks.

There is a $15.00 USAT admistration fee per Dan.

4th Dan and above must take the Poomsae Seminar $45.00.

Must be a member of the USAT $35.00.


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## terryl965 (Dec 26, 2008)

I just do not understand how you can became a third dan without even testing for them. This is just marketing to the masses and making money so easy. I have hav about thirty people tell me they can just send in paperwork and get to third without even testing. How do I explain this to my people.


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## jks9199 (Dec 26, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I just do not understand how you can became a third dan without even testing for them. This is just marketing to the masses and making money so easy. I have hav about thirty people tell me they can just send in paperwork and get to third without even testing. How do I explain this to my people.


Are 1st through 3rd simply riding the recommendations that I assume are accompanying the application?  Isn't there something about being 4th or above to promote someone to 1st?


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## terrylamar (Dec 26, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I just do not understand how you can became a third dan without even testing for them. This is just marketing to the masses and making money so easy. I have hav about thirty people tell me they can just send in paperwork and get to third without even testing. How do I explain this to my people.


 
Just sending in your paperwork is an exception.  You will have to justify your request.

Otherwise, your Kukkiwon certified instructor, 4th Dan and above or the USAT will have to do it.

How is this different than a regular promotion?  You don't appear before the Kukkiwon.  It isn't mandatory until, I think, 6th Dan.  You will have to have already passed your Dan test 1st, 2nd and 3rd and provide a copy.

There are some exception, but you will have to justify those.  A committee at the USAT will look at them before passing them on to the Kukkiwon.  Then a promotion comittee at the Kukkiwon will look at them.  You still may not be approved.

This is an opportunity of those that have been passed by, for whatever reasons, that can justify their request to be promoted.

I still suggest this is a good thing and completely above board.

Just for example, I have a 3rd Dan, he was promoted by his former instructor an 8th Dan, before I took over the school.

Why he did not receive his Kukkiwon certificates is beyond me.  This is an opportunity for him to receive his 4th Dan Kukkiwon.  He attends class just about every day and has for years and years.  He has the time in grade for 4th from his 1st Dan promotion.  Yet, he doesn't even have 1st Dan.  Why would I give him his 1st Dan and make him wait for his 2nd and 3rd Dans when he was promoted so long ago?  This opportunity allows him to catch up to where he should be and isn't for some inexplainable reason.

I think there are many people in the same situation or simular situations that have, honestly, earned their rank, paid their dues and did not get the Kukkiwon certificate they deserve.


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## terryl965 (Dec 26, 2008)

No if you are a fisrt dan from somebody or has been with somebody but never got a KKW you can apply without anything but your resume, let say you have competed at the US open or at national and all you had was a BB cert. from your instructor that is not KKW, you can get up to a third without even testing as long as they can verify your claims. So if you are AAU and have place ay National over the last ten years now you can have that KKW certs without ever testing.


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## terrylamar (Dec 26, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> No if you are a fisrt dan from somebody or has been with somebody but never got a KKW you can apply without anything but your resume, let say you have competed at the US open or at national and all you had was a BB cert. from your instructor that is not KKW, you can get up to a third without even testing as long as they can verify your claims. So if you are AAU and have place ay National over the last ten years now you can have that KKW certs without ever testing.


 
You still have to submit your certificates, Kukkiwon or not, your Martial Arts Resume and recomendation from your current instructor.

If you don't have a recomendation from your instructor or you don't have and instructor you have to give justification of why you should be promoted.

It then goes through two promotion comittees, USAT and the Kukkiwon.  It can be disallowed at either level.

Technically, you are correct.  Nevertheless, you must have earned whatever rank you are requesting.


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## terryl965 (Dec 26, 2008)

terrylamar said:


> You still have to submit your certificates, Kukkiwon or not, your Martial Arts Resume and recomendation from your current instructor.
> 
> If you don't have a recomendation from your instructor or you don't have and instructor you have to give justification of why you should be promoted.
> 
> ...


 

This is not right, David at the USAT says once the committee in Ohio and the USAT says it is OK the KKW will issue no question ask. You are right for some this is good for others it is a way to get something without testing, if I was a red belt and had someone to say I was a BB and my paperwork got excepted than I would be a BB by the KKW without a test. I hope this does not became an every year thing at the US Open.


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## terrylamar (Dec 26, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> This is not right, David at the USAT says once the committee in Ohio and the USAT says it is OK the KKW will issue no question ask. You are right for some this is good for others it is a way to get something without testing, if I was a red belt and had someone to say I was a BB and my paperwork got excepted than I would be a BB by the KKW without a test. I hope this does not became an every year thing at the US Open.


 
From the USTA website:

"USAT and the Martial Arts Commission will promptly review the applications and submit them to Kukkiwon. Kukkiwon will issue notice of approval in time for travel arrangements to be made."

I took that to imply that the Kukkiwon had some process of approval.  I have not talked to David Askinas about this specifice issue, so you may be correct.


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## Kacey (Dec 26, 2008)

This was previously discussed here - although some different, and interesting, points are being raised in this discussion that were not raised previously.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 26, 2008)

Kacey said:


> This was previously discussed here - although some different, and interesting, points are being raised in this discussion that were not raised previously.


Wow!  I completely missed that one.  

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Dec 26, 2008)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Wow! I completely missed that one.
> 
> Daniel


 
Yea sometimes we have multiple threads about the same thing.


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## jks9199 (Dec 26, 2008)

terrylamar said:


> From the USTA website:
> 
> "USAT and the Martial Arts Commission will promptly review the applications and submit them to Kukkiwon. Kukkiwon will issue notice of approval in time for travel arrangements to be made."
> 
> I took that to imply that the Kukkiwon had some process of approval.  I have not talked to David Askinas about this specifice issue, so you may be correct.


I would kind of read that as KKW will make sure that the notices of approval, IF APPROVED, will go out with enough time to make travel plans.  I'm not seeing it as "if you get your application turned in on time, we'll send you your approval so that you can buy your plane ticket."  It's not clear, and can definitely be read either way.  I hope it's the former, rather than a simple rubberstamp of anyone who submits an application.


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## wade (Dec 27, 2008)

I see a need for what they want to do but I've also encountered a few problems. I've already been contacted by some BB's that want to test and what I am finding is that many of them are just not reading the requirements, IE: rules and then following them. To do a basic test IE pretty simple. To do a skip Dan as so many want to do is where the problem lies. Unless the KKW relaxes the rules you must:

 1st: have sufficient time in grade between the ranks to do the skip Dan. A 1st wanting to skip to 3rd would need at least 3 years since the date on his 1st Dan KKW certificate, not the date he tested but the actual date the certificate was issued. Most of the people contacting me don't have this. In fact one that wants his 6th has a KKW date of Jan, 2008, 10 months ago for his 4th Dan. He is not the exception, at least 5 others have I have talked to are in the same basic position. 

2nd: They must have a good reason for the skip Dan. Saying you missed a test is not enough. They want to know why you missed the test and why you didn't make it up later. Believe me, they do read this stuff.  Please don't use terms like "my master screwed me". You better have a paper trail and proof. Even that one is iffy so.....................

3. Your theses, it had better be good and it had better be on subject.

4. Your resume, just teaching class is not enough. What have you done for TKD and why should you get promoted? What classes have you attended, what classes have you given.  Are you a certified instructor, in not, why not? It had better be good, solid and you better have proof to back up your claims. 

5. Oral interview, been there and done that. Be prepared and I do mean be prepared. They will ask you about anything and everything so study up. What can you do to make TKD better, etc?

OK, so, that's it, go, have fun and I will see you there.


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## wade (Dec 27, 2008)

BTW, the pictures on my personal site are from left to right, SGM Hong Kong Kim, me, COB Ronda Sweet and SGM JP Choi. They will be the ones heading the USAT's MAC that is running this test. This is me being inducted into the MAC.


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## Kacey (Dec 27, 2008)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Wow!  I completely missed that one.
> 
> Daniel



It happens fairly often - I only linked to it to add the previous discussion to this one, as I think some good points were made in that thread.


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## Miles (Dec 27, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> It just seems like another way to make a buck via promoting someone and keeping them in the fold.



I actually think it is a way of getting them into the fold....


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## troubleenuf (Dec 28, 2008)

Anyone know what forms they will be going over in the seminar prior to the testing?


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## IcemanSK (Dec 28, 2008)

troubleenuf said:


> Anyone know what forms they will be going over in the seminar prior to the testing?


 
Most likely the Tae Gueks & the yudanja poomsae. Those are the "official" KKW poomsae.


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## wade (Dec 28, 2008)

So far they have started at TG #1 and gone up through all of them to the highest one required for whom ever is testing. It is a good seminar. Take water and snacks with you, it will be a very long day.

Be warned that the test itself normally starts out with you doing basic technique and goes up from there. 

Basics-forms-breaking-sparring (Olympic style in full gear, have it with you)-interview.


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## ArmorOfGod (Dec 28, 2008)

> For example, a 3d Dan seeking 7th Dan would pay fees only for 5th, 6th, and 7th  Dan.


 
Wow.
I can't even imagine going to my students and saying "Yes, I was a 3rd degree yesterday, but today I am a 7th degree."

I am not a tkd guy, so everyone can ignore what I am saying about this stuff, but I like #1.  That is a clever idea for the Kukkiwon to pull in black belts from other tkd kwoons and make them a part of their org.  That is a good idea.
Past that, there is so much stuff that bothers me that it makes me lose respect for that org.  Skipping from 3-7th dan is a joke.  Not having to be present to "test" for 1-3rd dan is one of the many reasons that the general public thinks that karate and tkd is a joke.
Seriously, this is sad.

AoG


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 28, 2008)

Miles said:


> I actually think it is a way of getting them into the fold....



To make a buck?


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## Tames D (Dec 28, 2008)

ArmorOfGod said:


> Wow.
> I can't even imagine going to my students and saying "Yes, I was a 3rd degree yesterday, but today I am a 7th degree."
> 
> I am not a tkd guy, so everyone can ignore what I am saying about this stuff, but I like #1. That is a clever idea for the Kukkiwon to pull in black belts from other tkd kwoons and make them a part of their org. That is a good idea.
> ...


Gotta agree with you on this. I'm not saying outsiders are laughing at this situation but...


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## IcemanSK (Dec 28, 2008)

I think that this kind of testing opportunity was designed for people in situations like I found myself in. 

I started out & got my 1st Dan KKW in 1985. Changed schools & tested for what was supposed to be 2nd Dan ITF in 1988. Continued to train at that school for a number of years until I discovered that my 2nd Dan ITF was bogus. While I still trained, I didn't test for 3rd Dan for 19 years after my last test due to mistrust & lack of opportunity: not lack of training.

There are plenty of folks like me who were told they had legit certs (in whatever org.) it was not the case. Many more folks have been given a cert. that they were told was KKW, but is not. All the while their instructor pocketed more money. 

It seems as though they will examine the potential candidate's claims of training fairly well. While folks with questionanle training may slip through, it seems that one would still have to test up to par. A lot of effort would need to be expended just to take that chance.


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## ArmorOfGod (Dec 28, 2008)

Hey Iceman,
Would this opportunity to rank in the Kukkikwon be appropriate for you now?
Actually, when I read about the skip dan thing, I thought of a few people that it woud actually be a good thing for and you were one of them.  I remember your story about the bogus ITF rank due to a shady instructor.
Are you considering using this event to further your rank or fix your rank to where it should be?

AoG


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## IcemanSK (Dec 28, 2008)

ArmorOfGod said:


> Hey Iceman,
> Would this opportunity to rank in the Kukkikwon be appropriate for you now?
> Actually, when I read about the skip dan thing, I thought of a few people that it woud actually be a good thing for and you were one of them. I remember your story about the bogus ITF rank due to a shady instructor.
> Are you considering using this event to further your rank or fix your rank to where it should be?
> ...


 
Hey AoG,

No, I'm not considering the test for a skip dan. When I tested for 3rd Dan in my org. last year, I also received my long-awaited KKW 2nd Dan. So my 20+ years since my KKW 1st is no longer an issue. I'm back on the "time-in-grade schedule" again. I'm elligible for KKW 3rd Dan in June 2009. I will take care of that then. Had I not gotten back on track last year, I'd certainly consider it.

Thanks for thinking of me. I've heard way too many horror stories of folks who thought they were 3rd-5th Dan KKW who's instructor never sent in the paper work...yet they took the money. Hopefully, this will be an opportunity to right some wrongs.


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## troubleenuf (Dec 28, 2008)

Actually the pal gues are also listed as "recognized" forms but they seem to ignore them for any kind of training or seminars.  Since I have never done nor intend to do, the Tae Guks I am guessing that I wont attend.



IcemanSK said:


> Most likely the Tae Gueks & the yudanja poomsae. Those are the "official" KKW poomsae.


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## terryl965 (Dec 28, 2008)

troubleenuf said:


> Actually the pal gues are also listed as "recognized" forms but they seem to ignore them for any kind of training or seminars. Since I have never done nor intend to do, the Tae Guks I am guessing that I wont attend.


 
Yes for whatever reason they keep them on the list but never do anything for them. Why because they are so much harder to learn than the simple Tae Gueks


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## troubleenuf (Dec 28, 2008)

Having only done a few of the Tae Gueks I guess my problem with them is that they just dont fit a good theory....  step and block with the back hand that type of stuff.... not that the Pal Gues are all correct but at least make more sense to me.




terryl965 said:


> Yes for whatever reason they keep them on the list but never do anything for them. Why because they are so much harder to learn than the simple Tae Gueks


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## YoungMan (Dec 28, 2008)

I consider myself lucky. After each Dan test, I received an appropriate certificate from either Kukkiwon or Chung Do Kwan.  My certs are signed by either Un Yong Kim (KKW) or Woon Kyu Uhm (Chung Do Kwan/KKW).  I couldn't imagine having to wait 25 years for a certificate or never receiving one.  Fortunately, with my instructor's credentials, I've never had to.


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## terryl965 (Dec 29, 2008)

Well here is a good one I had a phone call from a ITF person asking me to teach him the Tae Gueks so he can belt test at the US Open and recieve his fourth from them. He has 7 instructor sign off on him already for the paperwork but would like me to teach so he can get his fourth and start offering KKW certs. for those that would like to have it. See just as I thought people just doing it so they can claim something else, Yes I will teach it to him becaus eif he does not pay me he will just find somebody else to do it.


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## Moodo101 (Dec 31, 2008)

I am very pleased to have this opportunity to attain a rank that is representative of my years of training and, hopefully, my Taekwondo history. I have submitted my application and am anxiously awaiting a reply.

 I have read some profiles about members who received their black belts in 85, before I started training. I received my school black belt in 89 and my kukkiwon in 90. I have since owned a martial arts school for 9 years, trained provincial, national and international players and contributed to my community. I have my level 2 NCCP, which I believe has now changed, and my National Instructor certification. I also returned to school, after teaching Taekwondo in Korea for 6 months, to pursue my undergrad in education and am currently taking my bachelors or education. Unforutnatly I have experienced issues with testing, like a lot of you. I currently hold my 3rd Kukkiwon and have tried, on two separate occations, to get my 4th - and did not receive a certificate. So, I decided to go for it, and apply to test for my 6th dan. Part of my reasoning, if I had tested consistenty since 1990, since I have trained and taught consistently, I would be 4 years into my 6th. I know the rank does not change  who I am or what kind of instructor I may be...but it is nice to have a rank that somewhat represents where you have been. I just want a chance to test - then passing is all up to me. In fact, I am so excited about the seminar and the potential testing...but only time will tell if it will become a reality. 

I also left my instructor in 2000 - due to a difference in business philosophies. He was all business and I am not...and I had to eat, if you catch my drift. 

Thanks for reading. Anyone else in the same boat as I, awaiting a reply?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 31, 2008)

Like others here, I can also see the potential for shenannigans.

On the other hand, I do know of people who paid their testing fees and were given bogus certs by a school that just kept the money.  One such individual came to our school and GM Kim too the time and trouble to research it for him.  Turned out nothing had been sent to the Kukkiwon, so GM Kim tested this individual to insure that he was indeed of first dan material, then sent in the paperwork to the KKW.  He did not charge the student, as he felt that the student had already paid enough at the previous school.  

Also, I knew a gent who paid his BB testing fee, went to test only to find the school closed and his 'master' no longer in the area.  His testing fee was substantial for the time (over 200.00 in the late eighties).

I don't bring this up to talk up my GM or to be overly optimistic about the motivations of this special testing, so much as to say that I can see where a special testing opportunity such as this can redress some very real wrongs that have occurred over the years.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 31, 2008)

Not in the same boat as you, Moodo, but welcome to MT!

Daniel


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## AMP-RYU (Dec 31, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Yes for whatever reason they keep them on the list but never do anything for them. Why because they are so much harder to learn than the simple Tae Gueks


 I personally teach the Palgwe forms because of this, I think the martial arts should be a little challenging not just a walk through!


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## AMP-RYU (Dec 31, 2008)

AMP-RYU said:


> I personally teach the Palgwe forms because of this, I think the martial arts should be a little challenging not just a walk through!


 
I personally don't think there is a necessity for a kukkiwan rank, what does it symbolize? Realistically isnt it just another way for someone else to make money? How do you know that a panel really judges your test and not just the next secretary in line? I personally learn from a Grandmaster and if he thinks I have the skills to teach my students then I have to believe what he says! As far as my students I trust in myself that I know my students better than anyone else and that I should be able to personally test my students when I think they are ready! Just my opinion!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 31, 2008)

While I agree with you in principle, Amp, there are three practical reasons for KKW rank. 

First, and most relevant to this discussion, there are competitions that require KKW dan rank. USAT is a sports regulatory organization and the only organization from which the US Olympic taekwondo team is drawn from. 

Second, it provides some level of portable rank. If I move from Maryland to California and head into a KKW school, I need only show them my card. It isn't so much that I care about the color of my belt, but I certainly don't want some greedy school owner to tell me that I need to go through testing with the associated fees for ten-plus belts when I've already done so.

Lastly, it provides students with a certificate that has meaning greater than just the school owner's say so. Right now with the economy being bad, a number of schools in my area have closed. Having rank with an international organization protects them from the scenario I mentioned above: greedy school owner seeking to pick up some testing bucks from students who attended a school that closed.

Not that all, or even most school owners are greedy; they aren't. But some are, and there is no sure fire way to tell the greedy ones from the honest ones. Not even avoiding the McDojo format will keep you safe: there are honest McMasters and dishonest old school 'traditional' masters.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Dec 31, 2008)

Yea Yea Yea what is all the problems, we are talking about something that is far greater than a piece of paper. We are talking about money plain and simple the kind of money only you and me can dream about. If the all mighty dollar was not important to them they would not even be asking for this, when you are going below a 4th dan you need not even show up but just send the money order/cashier check and withen a few months you can be a third with no formal training. GOD BLESS Tae Kwon Do and the GrandMaster and Masters that have made this possible for the people of America.:asian:


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## AMP-RYU (Dec 31, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Yea Yea Yea what is all the problems, we are talking about something that is far greater than a piece of paper. We are talking about money plain and simple the kind of money only you and me can dream about. If the all mighty dollar was not important to them they would not even be asking for this, when you are going below a 4th dan you need not even show up but just send the money order/cashier check and withen a few months you can be a third with no formal training. GOD BLESS Tae Kwon Do and the GrandMaster and Masters that have made this possible for the people of America.:asian:


 
A very wise man once said...:asian:


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## terryl965 (Dec 31, 2008)

AMP-RYU said:


> A very wise man once said...:asian:


 
And also some not wise men, like me. :asian:


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## troubleenuf (Dec 31, 2008)

Actually... 
Competition... the only competition you need a KKW for is if you are on the team (international meets).  If you are good enough to make the team they will get you a certificate PDQ... like next day (and that requirement may be going by the wayside soon).

Portable Rank....  since the KKW has no relevant standards their certification has become to mean nothing.  If a student walks into my gym regardless of his/her certification they must prove to me that they are that rank. I think thats becoming more true all the time for most organizations.

If this certification provides them with so much protection when was the last time the KKW stepped in to correct some instructor who took the money and ran?  Have you EVER known them to pull someones certification?  How about even send out a warning letter to someone?  Anything?  For an organization to have meaning they have to have some form of control over standards.  Do they?  

  I have to admit I was tempted to do this testing..  Why?  Because like many of us I too have this deep inert feeling that I must be promoted by the KKW (or a Korean) to make me feel ligit.  But look at it... they have never provided me with any training, updated DVDs of technique, anything... All I ever received from them was a piece of expensive paper.  I have been training for 30 years.  Would any of the people who are conducting this test know me?  Nope.  They have no idea of who or what I am.  I could be a bum of the street or the best thing since sliced bread.  But they would not have a clue either way.  But I will bet you large amounts of money that anyone taking this test will pass without question.  They almost HAVE to... how are you going to retest if they fail you?  Its a pay your money, you pass type thing.  Dosnt matter who or what you are.  YOU WILL PASS.  Not a very meaningful test regardless of who is certifying it if you ask me.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> While I agree with you in principle, Amp, there are three practical reasons for KKW rank.
> 
> First, and most relevant to this discussion, there are competitions that require KKW dan rank. USAT is a sports regulatory organization and the only organization from which the US Olympic taekwondo team is drawn from.
> 
> ...


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## Miles (Dec 31, 2008)

troubleenuf said:


> Actually...
> 
> If this certification provides them with so much protection when was the last time the KKW stepped in to correct some instructor who took the money and ran?  Have you EVER known them to pull someones certification?  How about even send out a warning letter to someone?  Anything?  For an organization to have meaning they have to have some form of control over standards.  Do they?



There was that guy in FL who was selling rank and I understand the KKW revoked his....



troubleenuf said:


> I have to admit I was tempted to do this testing..  Why?  Because like many of us I too have this deep inert feeling that I must be promoted by the KKW (or a Korean) to make me feel ligit.  But look at it... they have never provided me with any training, updated DVDs of technique, anything... All I ever received from them was a piece of expensive paper.  I have been training for 30 years.  Would any of the people who are conducting this test know me?  Nope.  They have no idea of who or what I am.  I could be a bum of the street or the best thing since sliced bread.  But they would not have a clue either way.  But I will bet you large amounts of money that anyone taking this test will pass without question.  They almost HAVE to... how are you going to retest if they fail you?  Its a pay your money, you pass type thing.  Dosnt matter who or what you are.  YOU WILL PASS.  Not a very meaningful test regardless of who is certifying it if you ask me.



You do not need a Korean instructor to be legitimate.  That's the point of the Foreigner Instructor Course.  BTW, I would NOT be surprised if a number of folks failed. The pass rate in Korea for dan examinations per the KKW newsletter was not even close to 100%(I recall as the dan # went up, the rate of passing went down).  The pass rate for the Foreigner Instructor Course is not close to 100% (I thought I saw 45% pass rate).


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## AMP-RYU (Dec 31, 2008)

Miles said:


> There was that guy in FL who was selling rank and I understand the KKW revoked his....
> 
> 
> 
> You do not need a Korean instructor to be legitimate. That's the point of the Foreigner Instructor Course. BTW, I would NOT be surprised if a number of folks failed. The pass rate in Korea for dan examinations per the KKW newsletter was not even close to 100%(I recall as the dan # went up, the rate of passing went down). The pass rate for the Foreigner Instructor Course is not close to 100% (I thought I saw 45% pass rate).


Realistically, does this kukkiwan rank give you any special powers or abilities you did not already have? Then it's basically a way of duping people into spending money. Remember the martial arts in that country is a business and this is the way most korean american grandmasters feel about the arts! Ask anyone of them if its okay to make profit off your students and they will give you more and even new ways to make more money off your students! The kukkiwan is nothing more than a business and if you wanna compete in international tourny's and the olympics go for it! But if you ask me it should be a tryout not an expensive peice of paper!


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## MasterWright (Dec 31, 2008)

AMP-RYU said:


> Realistically, does this kukkiwan rank give you any special powers or abilities you did not already have? Then it's basically a way of duping people into spending money. Remember the martial arts in that country is a business and this is the way most korean american grandmasters feel about the arts! Ask anyone of them if its okay to make profit off your students and they will give you more and even new ways to make more money off your students! The kukkiwan is nothing more than a business and if you wanna compete in international tourny's and the olympics go for it! But if you ask me it should be a tryout not an expensive peice of paper!


 The Kukkiwon 1st Dan is only 70 dollars


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## AMP-RYU (Dec 31, 2008)

MasterWright said:


> The Kukkiwon 1st Dan is only 70 dollars


 
But what do you have to do to get it and how do you know its really graded are you there? NO! You basically paid $70 for a piece of paper! It doesnt meen your better in any way!!!!


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## Miles (Dec 31, 2008)

AMP-RYU said:


> Realistically, does this kukkiwan rank give you any special powers or abilities you did not already have? Then it's basically a way of duping people into spending money. Remember the martial arts in that country is a business and this is the way most korean american grandmasters feel about the arts! Ask anyone of them if its okay to make profit off your students and they will give you more and even new ways to make more money off your students! The kukkiwan is nothing more than a business and if you wanna compete in international tourny's and the olympics go for it! But if you ask me it should be a tryout not an expensive peice of paper!



Amp-Ryu, please see my responses (#s 22 and 23) in this thread as I think they answer your question from my personal perspective:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58893&highlight=Kukkiwon&page=2


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## AMP-RYU (Dec 31, 2008)

Miles said:


> Amp-Ryu, please see my responses (#s 22 and 23) in this thread as I think they answer your question from my personal perspective:
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58893&highlight=Kukkiwon&page=2


 Yes but your personal perspective is just that your personal perspective! It still has not been proven to me that the kukkiwan certs vs. the certs I give out make the Kukkiwan students better than my students!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Why should the only "real" black belt certs come from korea? Why dont we make an "official" organization here in the USA that does the certs in exchage for someones money from another country. I know its to keep everything standardized, but I dont want my style I teach standard! I want Japanese and Chinese influences along with some brazilian and so on and so forth, based of the TKD platform. TKD makes other styles easier to learn and I use it as a basis.


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## terryl965 (Dec 31, 2008)

AMP-RYU said:


> Yes but your personal perspective is just that your personal perspective! It still has not been proven to me that the kukkiwan certs vs. the certs I give out make the Kukkiwan students better than my students!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
AMP-RYU no the piece of paper is not worth much to anybody really, what it does is give people the chance to compete on a International and Olympic level and if that does not mean anything to you than it is worth nothing. All KKW school will recognized a KKW certificate because it ia worldwide. Me I have no use for it at my age but my sone who is still hoping to be able to make the Olympics one day it mean alot to him right now. Basically it has value to those that what it and none to those that do not.


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## AMP-RYU (Dec 31, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> AMP-RYU no the piece of paper is not worth much to anybody really, what it does is give people the chance to compete on a International and Olympic level and if that does not mean anything to you than it is worth nothing. All KKW school will recognized a KKW certificate because it ia worldwide. Me I have no use for it at my age but my sone who is still hoping to be able to make the Olympics one day it mean alot to him right now. Basically it has value to those that what it and none to those that do not.


 
I know I realize this and thank you terry, but the only problem I have with it is if someone comes in my school and says Im not worthy to train their/them because I don't have kukkiwan, this is all. It shouldnt be the only way to "regulate black belts of TKD, thats all Im saying.


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## troubleenuf (Dec 31, 2008)

Hate to tell you, I have a certificate for the "foreign instructors course".  Know how I got it?  Did nothing, attended nothing, was over for the World Championships a few years back and the group I was traveling with was supposed to take the course.  Because of the politics at the time the course never came about.... but everyone got a certificate.  
  Of couse this is the same group were everyone got a black belt in Kumdo.  After two lessons.  
  I am still betting on a 100% pass rate.  $$$ Talks, especially in Korea.




Miles said:


> There was that guy in FL who was selling rank and I understand the KKW revoked his....
> 
> 
> 
> You do not need a Korean instructor to be legitimate.  That's the point of the Foreigner Instructor Course.  BTW, I would NOT be surprised if a number of folks failed. The pass rate in Korea for dan examinations per the KKW newsletter was not even close to 100%(I recall as the dan # went up, the rate of passing went down).  The pass rate for the Foreigner Instructor Course is not close to 100% (I thought I saw 45% pass rate).


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## troubleenuf (Dec 31, 2008)

For years I have heard the story that the KKW can/will rovoke the rank... never seen it and NEVER have I seen a form to do it.  I belong to a National Horse organization who suspends people all the time... when they do it they publish names and the suspensions in their magazine.  This shows EVERYONE that if they dont follow the rules and guidlines they WILL take action.  On the other hand never have I seen anything in the KKW magazine regarding any action taken against someone.  NEVER.  I think the revoking of a certificate is like the story of the old lady who had a 64 corvette that was in her garage for the past 40 years that belonged to her son and she sold it for $100.  Its a story.  Never happened but sounds good.  I think revoking certification from the KKW is just like that... a story, never happened but everyone knows someone who knew someone whos certification was revoked.
By the way, selling rank has become a STANDARD for the Kukkiwon.  Just look at the time/age requirements that suddenly go away if you know the right people and have the right amount of cash.  Unfortunately money talks with this organization.




Miles said:


> There was that guy in FL who was selling rank and I understand the KKW revoked his....
> 
> 
> 
> You do not need a Korean instructor to be legitimate.  That's the point of the Foreigner Instructor Course.  BTW, I would NOT be surprised if a number of folks failed. The pass rate in Korea for dan examinations per the KKW newsletter was not even close to 100%(I recall as the dan # went up, the rate of passing went down).  The pass rate for the Foreigner Instructor Course is not close to 100% (I thought I saw 45% pass rate).


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## YoungMan (Jan 1, 2009)

I'd trust a Kukkiwon certificate over most school certificates any day. At least with a KKW certificate I know approximately what I'm getting, and yes, the Kukkiwon does have guidelines as to how its authorized testings are to be administered.
With many individual school certificates, I have no idea what they consider legitimate testings.  More often than not, it becomes a "we've incorporated karate, kickboxing, kung fu, and and hapkido into our class curriculum and testings". In which case it is no longer Taekwondo but mere rubbish.  In these cases, the certificate is quite literally not worth the paper it's printed on.  At least a Kukkiwon certificate, regardless of what many of you think, is still recognized around the world.


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## MasterWright (Jan 1, 2009)

AMP-RYU said:


> But what do you have to do to get it and how do you know its really graded are you there? NO! You basically paid $70 for a piece of paper! It doesnt meen your better in any way!!!!


 There is a standard set of requirements that are followed. When an application is submitted to the kukkiwon, the student and examiner or board need to be approved. 

May I ask how much you charge for your AMP Ryu Degree? and where else is it recognised. If I get a printing shop to make a drivers license for me would it be just as good when I get pulled over by the cops ? 

At least my students don't have to start all over again if they moved away, even to another country.

We give a degree from our school as well, if the student does not care to pay a few dollars more for a KKW certificate. They hold the same rank in our club and these people just want fitness and training for different reasons. I respect that and certainly don't tell them things like all they have is a $ 70.00 piece of paper.


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## terryl965 (Jan 1, 2009)

This is true give it to those that would like to have it and for those that do not fine.


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## Miles (Jan 1, 2009)

troubleenuf said:


> Hate to tell you, I have a certificate for the "foreign instructors course".  Know how I got it?  Did nothing, attended nothing, was over for the World Championships a few years back and the group I was traveling with was supposed to take the course.  Because of the politics at the time the course never came about.... but everyone got a certificate.
> Of couse this is the same group were everyone got a black belt in Kumdo.  After two lessons.
> I am still betting on a 100% pass rate.  $$$ Talks, especially in Korea.



What year was that?  I looked over the WTF's website and see no world championships held at the last week of July and nothing recently in Korea.
http://www.wtf.org/site/events/chronology.htm


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## terryl965 (Jan 1, 2009)

Miles said:


> What year was that? I looked over the WTF's website and see no world championships held at the last week of July and nothing recently in Korea.
> http://www.wtf.org/site/events/chronology.htm


 

I believe he is referring to 2002 when they was having some inner problems. But I do not recalling everyone recieving anything.


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## Miles (Jan 1, 2009)

AMP-RYU said:


> Yes but your personal perspective is just that your personal perspective!



I agree, but by the same token, doesn't this also mean your perspective is no more valid that mine?  Nevertheless, my perspective is that of a student who has taken the opportunity to go and see for myself what happens at the KKW and that helped form my perspective.




AMP-RYU said:


> It still has not been proven to me that the kukkiwan certs vs. the certs I give out make the Kukkiwan students better than my students!



These are actually two separate and new issues to the discussion: does the certificate make a better practitioner? What evidence does it take to "prove" something to someone?  

From my perspective, no the certificate does not make the practitioner.  I could be just as good (or bad) regardless of whether I held certification from the KKW, the ITF, of Bob's School of Taekwondo.

As to the second issue, that of proof, I am not sure what will convince you, that is only something you can answer for yourself.



AMP-RYU said:


> Why should the only "real" black belt certs come from korea? Why dont we make an "official" organization here in the USA that does the certs in exchage for someones money from another country.



See above.  I never said only real black belts certs come from Korea.  In fact, my first 17 years in TKD were doing "breakaway" ITF style.  I do however support the KKW because it is promoting TKD in a beneficial way from my perspective.

You can create an "official" organization here in the US.  There is no shortage of organizations all issuing their own certification.  What is the value of that certification?  Likely, not much better than any other groups since neither organization will recognize anyone not within their organization.  But the KKW certificate is issued and recognized worldwide.  It is as close to a standard as possible, from my perspective.

What will your organization do?  Will it teach instructors how to be better instructors?  If so, standardization of technique and methodology is important, don't you think?  The KKW wants to do this and has devoted over 30 years of effort to this end.



AMP-RYU said:


> I know its to keep everything standardized, but I dont want my style I teach standard! I want Japanese and Chinese influences along with some brazilian and so on and so forth, based of the TKD platform. TKD makes other styles easier to learn and I use it as a basis.



There is nothing wrong with adding other influences or elements to one's personal practice.  Each of us has different interests within and outside the martial arts.  I enjoy studying Filipino martial arts.  I think in some ways, they have made my TKD better as they enhance my experience.  For example, when I was in high school, I took 2 years of French.  Those 2 years of French helped me understand English better.  What you are doing Amp-Ryu is not unlike Guro Dan Inosanto or MT's own Brian Van.  Good luck with your training!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 1, 2009)

troubleenuf said:


> Actually...
> Competition... the only competition you need a KKW for is if you are on the team (international meets). If you are good enough to make the team they will get you a certificate PDQ... like next day (and that requirement may be going by the wayside soon).


And such competition is the only area where a KKW rank is a requirement.  Yes, they'll get you the cert, but if it weren't a requirement, they wouldn't bother.  So if you're on the team, then practically, you need the cert.  Whether you show up with it in hand or the team furnishes it for you, the end result is still the same.



troubleenuf said:


> Portable Rank.... since the KKW has no relevant standards their certification has become to mean nothing. If a student walks into my gym regardless of his/her certification they must prove to me that they are that rank. I think thats becoming more true all the time for most organizations.


Yes, and if a student comes to your school with a KKW blackbelt but performs at a blue belt level, it is perfectly reasonable to say, 'you can't wear that belt until you've gotten yourself up to speed; bring in your old blue belt.' 

But would you demand of a student who holds dan rank in the same org as your school to pay testing fees from white belt through black belt again.  Is that something that you'd do to an incoming student?  I'd hope not.

Now, if you're not a KKW instructor, then his or her rank would hold no real meaning at your school. 

Regarding the KKW standards, they actually have relevant standards, but it is up to the individual schools to determine if the students meet those standards.  Admitedly, they are minimal standards; just enough to maintain a thread of continuity between all KKW schools.  Both a sport oriented TKD school and a traditional school that has no sport participation at all are very different schools and each can meet the minimum requirements for a KKW dan cert equally well.  



troubleenuf said:


> If this certification provides them with so much protection when was the last time the KKW stepped in to correct some instructor who took the money and ran? Have you EVER known them to pull someones certification? How about even send out a warning letter to someone? Anything? For an organization to have meaning they have to have some form of control over standards. Do they?


The only protection that it provides is exactly what I stated: you have a rank that is recognized by a body over and above the issuing school's say so.  Go to a non KKW school and any and all benefits from the KKW are gone.  

So much protection?  I never said that it was so much proteciton.  Don't get the idea that I think that the KKW provides anything resembling labor union style protections for its members; it doesn't.  

And no, the KKW doesn't exercise nearly enough of the regulatory authority that it could over its member schools.  The very scenario of a school owner taking the money and running (I know people whom this has happened to) is the *only *reason that I am _not_ against this special testing.  There should be no need for any sort of special testing.  But if they can redress wrongs of the past, then it can be a good thing.  It would be a much better thing if the redressing of wrongs were accompanied by a mechanism to prevent such wrongs in the future, a mechanism that, as you point out, either doesn't exist or isn't exercised.

The KKW is essentially a body of administrators of curriculum and an issuance body for certificates.  Nothing more.  Essentially, it is just enough to be not-a-papermill.  This is sad, because it could be so, so much more.  And it wouldn't be all that hard for the KKW to be so.  

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 1, 2009)

AMP-RYU said:


> But what do you have to do to get it and how do you know its really graded are you there?


 
Well, given that you test before a 4th+ dan instructor/master who grades your test and tells you if you passed or failed, sending in the appropriate paperwork in the case of the former, I'd say that answers whether or not you know that it was graded and whether or not you were there. 



AMP-RYU said:


> NO! You basically paid $70 for a piece of paper!


No, you basically paid a registration fee to a certification body for a credential that I as a student or owner of a school can go online and check. If you say that you're a KKW fifth dan, I as a student can go and verify your claim. If you show up at my school and claim that you're a KKW first dan, likewise, I can go online and check, though asking an incoming student to demonstrate their skills will demonstrate that to me fairly quickly.  Certainly, that is no guarantee that you're any good; it just means that you aren't lying about your credential. Which is a practical benefit to a school owner in dealing with customers who care about that sort of thing. In my area, everyone cares about your credential, be it martial arts or new car sales, or driving a zamboni (yes, Maryland has a specific zamboni license).

If you run a small school with students that don't care about fancy paperwork, then you can certainly dispense with organizational credentials. As you state below.....



AMP-RYU said:


> It doesnt meen your better in any way!!!!


And does your driver's license make you a better driver in any way? The MVA didn't teach you to drive. Someone else did. I don't know how it is in your state, but you have to renew your license in Maryland every few years. There is no test at renewal. You pay your fee and you're done. The test to get your license involves navigating a 16th mile parking lot course where the hardest part is parallel parking and you never go above five miles an hour. Does that license and test make me a better driver than I was when I arrived to take it? No. If anything, it allows someone with virtually no skill outside of being able to park a car to be licensed to drive all over the country at speeds eleven times to thirteen times greater than those that they were tested on.

Doesn't matter: get pulled over without a license and nobody will care that you're a former F-1 champ in Europe; you're car gets towed, you get fined, and you walk home.

My point is that just because the cert doesn't make you better doesn't mean that it has no purpose, and we all pay larger sums of money into pieces of paper and plastic that don't really make us better or really do anything more for us than a KKW cert does. At least you aren't required to go to a KKW school or receive a KKW cert just to practice taekwondo.

My apologies for further thread drift.

Daniel


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## matt.m (Jan 1, 2009)

Oh man, I swear "Giving Rank" is crazy.  I tell you it is running wild through a lot of arts, not just Tae Kwon Do.  I know a guy who put together a resume.  He sent it to whoever and viola he was a 1st dan in hapkido.  Tae Kwon Do gets a bad rap because with "More Commercialism" then the more apt a dirty school is to be around.  Organizations are the ones that let individual schools do it ect.  It is crazy.  I always parrallel a dan with a college degree.  If you graduate and earn a dan then if you do both with consistency you should have earned both at roughly the same time.

It seems the greedy want to play on the emotions and greed of the ones who just "Don't want to be patient and work hard."

Just my .02,  I mean with a messed up back and wearing 2 titanium leg braces I still test for my belts.  I am a Judo 2nd Dan becuse I have to go up so my students can be promoted.  For the next 2 or so years I will be eligible for 3rd dan.  Ok, that's cool.  However, will it benefit me or my students and the organization?  I say "Students and Organization."  We are without an active 3rd dan and well the students need to have a 'higher ranking' instructor."




terryl965 said:


> I just do not understand how you can became a third dan without even testing for them. This is just marketing to the masses and making money so easy. I have hav about thirty people tell me they can just send in paperwork and get to third without even testing. How do I explain this to my people.


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## Miles (Jan 1, 2009)

matt.m said:


> Oh man, I swear "Giving Rank" is crazy.  I tell you it is running wild through a lot of arts, not just Tae Kwon Do.




Matt, you are correct.  I see more of these threads about rank (and who's a fraud or who is not) on BBS than pretty much any other topic, regardless or art.

Bottom line-keep on training and improve yourself-you are the only one you have to account to.


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## matt.m (Jan 1, 2009)

Here's the main problem a lot of folks have in arts with pre-arranged fighting such as forms, patterns, sparring etc.  (Japanese Karates, Okinawan Karates, Tae Kwon Do, etc.)

Keep this in mind....every block is a strike and every strike is a breaking technique.  So with the following statement being true I will say this..."All techniques are breaking techniques."

By doing these patterns you are getting more reps with practicing down blocks and that kind of thing.  So if you are in a karate or tae kwon do based art and don't like forms then do something else.



troubleenuf said:


> Having only done a few of the Tae Gueks I guess my problem with them is that they just dont fit a good theory.... step and block with the back hand that type of stuff.... not that the Pal Gues are all correct but at least make more sense to me.


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## matt.m (Jan 1, 2009)

Interestingly enough at one time I was and still am sort of.  Here is the deal....

While in the Marine Corps I was on the All Marine Judo Team.  I was only tested as a brown 1st, however I always competed on the dan level.  I had victory, medals, trophies, all the good stuff.  However, when I felt I was ready close to the end of my enlistment my original instructor was not around to test me.  That was 1996, I had been point eligible for dan test in 95 and had enough points to be a 2nd dan according to the USJA guidelines.  Anyway, I received my 1st dan from the same person that was my primary instructor ten years later.  A yr. later I received my 2nd dan.  That is right where I should have been when I left the Marines.  I am doing a huge paper for my 3rd Dan.  I won't be eligible for that ranking for another 2 yrs. or so but that is ok.




Moodo101 said:


> I am very pleased to have this opportunity to attain a rank that is representative of my years of training and, hopefully, my Taekwondo history. I have submitted my application and am anxiously awaiting a reply.
> 
> I have read some profiles about members who received their black belts in 85, before I started training. I received my school black belt in 89 and my kukkiwon in 90. I have since owned a martial arts school for 9 years, trained provincial, national and international players and contributed to my community. I have my level 2 NCCP, which I believe has now changed, and my National Instructor certification. I also returned to school, after teaching Taekwondo in Korea for 6 months, to pursue my undergrad in education and am currently taking my bachelors or education. Unforutnatly I have experienced issues with testing, like a lot of you. I currently hold my 3rd Kukkiwon and have tried, on two separate occations, to get my 4th - and did not receive a certificate. So, I decided to go for it, and apply to test for my 6th dan. Part of my reasoning, if I had tested consistenty since 1990, since I have trained and taught consistently, I would be 4 years into my 6th. I know the rank does not change who I am or what kind of instructor I may be...but it is nice to have a rank that somewhat represents where you have been. I just want a chance to test - then passing is all up to me. In fact, I am so excited about the seminar and the potential testing...but only time will tell if it will become a reality.
> 
> ...


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## matt.m (Jan 1, 2009)

No one throw a shoe at me but consider this:  Yep for nationals and above you need to be kkw certified.  However, if you are a competitor that doesn't go to those kind of tournaments no problem.  When I test and pass my tkd dan, hopefully then I will get KKW certified for the standardization of the 1st dan rank.

Also, consider: TKD has it relatively easy in the regard of the KKW cert.  in Judo just to compete in the local Y.M.C.A. you have to be a member of the USJA or USJI, US Judo Association or US Judo Institute.  They follow the Kodokan guidelines etc.  So everyone from whitebelt to dan has to be a member to compete.  This is not the case in TKD.  As a gup rank you go to the tournament, sign the waiver, then go to compete.

Plus, just because you want to test for 4th dan you have to be recommended by a grandmaster or higher for service to judo.  If I ever get to test for this I will have the Kodokan cert.


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## terryl965 (Jan 1, 2009)

Matt as always you put a good take on every post Thanks for your input sir.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 3, 2009)

It just dawned on me that this test in Vegas is in February! The deadline is January 7th! Not a lot of time to get things squared away. One would have to really work hard to get it together.


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