# Religion?Sport?Hobby?or Way of Life?



## lifewise

I have this neighbour that ... well, she is a lovely woman and means well but she is rather nosey and VERY opinionated as I experienced this morning.

Oh, forgot to add outspoken! 

My daughter and I were out in the backyard practicing. My daughter studies EPAK and TKD, and I am solely Kenpo. Our yard is totally fenced in and has many large bushes/trees on the perimeter to provide privacy - or so I thought. 

Seems the other day this lady watched us sparring in the back yard from her upstairs window.  This appears to be the worst thing a mother can do with her child according to this woman... 

I am teaching her to be aggressive apparently. She continued to tell me that I am not helping the violence in the world by showing my daughter how to trip someone and hit them with that big stick. (the bo we were using) 

All this she was willing to overlook until this morning. She felt compelled to come over and confront me after watching us practice EPAK salutation. 

This woman is very religious and she didn't hesitate to tell me her views on my family/friends and our martial arts practice. 

So here is a question for all the folks on martial talk - is the practice of martial arts a religion? In many arts, students follow a "master". There are those individuals that studied directly with this "master"  so are they "disciples"? Those who practice continue to "spread the word" or art and in doing so we "recruit" new souls?

This morning has been an interesting one ... lets see what your comments are.

:asian:

P.S. I will use the asian bow here, hopefully no one is watching through the window! :rofl:


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## Blindside

What religion, if it is some version of Christianity, dig up that quote from Jesus about requiring that each of his followers have a sword.  Then explain that you are actually de-escalating from there.

It won't work, people like this often haven't read the Bible enough.  But its a nice comeback....

Lamont


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## lifewise

:rofl: 

ah I new I would feel better after I posted ....


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## hand2handCombat

i dont really think its religious but mostly monks practice ma. meditation though is part of the Bhuddist religion. MA could be a form of meditation


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## Kirk

M.A. could be dang near anything you want it to be.  I'd love
to be able to come to your place and give that woman a piece
of MY mind!  Just cause your story ticks me off so much!  Religious
or not, the woman is a busy body, plain and simple!  What was
that lady's name on Bewitched?  Couldn't stop from looking out
her window to find out what everyone ELSE is up to?  Sounds
like this woman needs to get a life of her own.


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## Matt Stone

So nice that all the posts thusfar have been so constructive and helpful...  :shrug:

Alan Watts (the foremost Western exponent of Zen Buddhism in the 70s and also an ordained Episcopal (I think) priest) stated that "any activity taken to its extreme of practice becomes religion."  By that rather loose definition, anything you delve deeply into that occupies a large part of your thoughts and time, becomes religion.  For some, their religion is their spiritual pursuit of union with their Creator.  For others it is golf, volleyball, softball, bowling, whatever.  

For us weirdoes it is MA.

The bowing thing is always a big hit with the religious fanatics that don't understand its significance.  It is also a big beef with me that folks that practice MA often don't understand its real usage either.  In the US we shake hands when we meet someone, begin a contest, etc.  The bow _really_ has little significance beyond that (as far as I am aware anyway).  But, given that Americans are wonderfully ignorant of other cultures beyond what we see on TV or in the movie theater, there are those who see such alien actions such as bowing to be some kind of religious action as opposed to their much more mundane origins.

Your neighbor is a nut, bottom line.

If she had a problem with the violence issue, fine.  Her ideas can be countered with the fact that, rather than encouraging violence, MA provide alternatives to violence, developing confidence to no longer be viewed as a potential victim by predators (fact: people that appear to be easy targets are usually targeted.  Those who appear NOT to be easy targets are left alone...), empowering your daughter to be capable of handling violence should there be no other alternative, etc.  In fact, what you are doing with your daughter is a great thing - removing her from the weak woman stereotype and giving her the ability to compete on an even playing field by assisting her in becoming a strong, powerful, confident woman.  Maybe this is what is really bothering your neighbor...? 



> So here is a question for all the folks on martial talk - is the practice of martial arts a religion? In many arts, students follow a "master". There are those individuals that studied directly with this "master" so are they "disciples"? Those who practice continue to "spread the word" or art and in doing so we "recruit" new souls?



Here is a reply for folks that are _not_ martial artisits:  We don't follow "masters," because a person who is one would never allow themselves to be addressed as one; We instead go to a teacher who provides instruction in the skills we wish to develop, like going to the local community college to take a class on automotive repair.  We are not "disciples," because "disciples" follow a "master," and do so with blind devotion; the path of a warrior demands that he/she think for him/her self - doing anything less runs the ultimate risks.  We don't "spread the word," but we do inform others of the benefits of our practices; the same can be said for anyone that just joined a fitness center that has a really great personal trainer or aerobics program.  We don't "recruit new souls," because it isn't their soul we are concerned with!  Just new meat to toss around the dojo and suck floor... 

Best to simply nod, play nice, and ignore the neighbor entirely...

Just my humble and devalued 2 yen.

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:


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## Rob_Broad

When can I meet your neighbor.  She will be breaking out the holy water and climbing the fence with her cross in her hand and on the way back she can use both hands to climb the fence to get away.  The cross will be hidden by that time.

But really she needs to mind her own business.:angel:   

I don't think the martial arts need to fall into a religion, we are training to better ourselves.


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## lifewise

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *"any activity taken to its extreme of practice becomes religion."  By that rather loose definition, anything you delve deeply into that occupies a large part of your thoughts and time, becomes religion.  For some, their religion is their spiritual pursuit of union with their Creator.  For others it is golf, volleyball, softball, bowling, whatever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best to simply nod, play nice, and ignore the neighbor entirely...
> 
> *



No this woman isn't nuts - just very opinionated and takes "neighbourhood watch" literally! 

I did just that - I simply listened to her views, and wished her a good day. It wasn't that I didn't think of things I would have LIKED to say ... but I wasn't raised that way.


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## sweeper

man people like that are fun to get into debates 

ok here's what I pulled out of my dictionary on religion (webster's encyclopedic unabrdged dictionary of the english language)

*religion* n. *1.* concern over what exists beyond the visible world, differentiated from philosophy in that it operates through faith or intuition rather than reeason, and genneraly includes the idea of the existence of a single being, group of beings, an eternal principle, or a transcendent spiritual entity that has created the world, that governs it, that controls its destinies, or that intervenes occasionally in the natural course of it's history, as well as the idea that ritual, prayer, spiritual exercises, certain principles of everyday conduct, etc., are expedient, due, or spiritually rewarding, or arise naturally out of an inner need as a human response to the belief in such a being, principle, etc. *2.* a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices genneraly agreed apon by a number of persons or sects: _the christian religion._ *3.* the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: _a world council of religions._ *4.* a deep conviction of the validity of religious beliefs and practices: _to get religion._ *5.* the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: _to enter religion._ *6.* the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith. *7.* a point or matter of ethics or conscience: _to make a religion of fighting prejudice._ *8. religions,* _archaic._ religious rites. *9.* _archaic._ strict faithfulness; devotion: _a religion to one's vow._

Ok now, I don't know about you but it seems that the practice of martial art genneraly wouldn't have to have anything to do with religion, someone could posably make it an outgrowth of their religion but unless it were to be attached to an established religion it in and of it's self would not be a religion.

Tell the woman to o look it up and explain how martial art is religion, also have her look up "ignorance"


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## Matt Stone

Nicely done!!!

God forbid D) we actually use our language the way it is intended, and select our words not based on what we _think_ they mean, but based on what they really *do* mean!

Again, sweeper, nicely done!!!


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## Laevolus

...I hope you don't mind a newbie jumping in here, but if she is so against violence due to her religious beliefs, you could point out to her how most of the biggest wars throughout history have been caused, at least in part, by religion.

The Crusades spring instantly to mind.

Mind you, some peoples mids will never be changed, one of my friends still believes that I'm just being taught how to kill people. 

What you gonna do?


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## Kirk

The Spanish Inquisition is another .. but anyways ...



> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *So nice that all the posts thusfar have been so constructive and helpful...  :shrug:*



Yeah, YOU'RE the only helpful one here, with the _greatest_ 
attitude. :shrug: 



> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *The bowing thing is always a big hit with the religious fanatics that don't understand its significance.  It is also a big beef with me that folks that practice MA often don't understand its real usage either.  In the US we shake hands when we meet someone, begin a contest, etc.  The bow really has little significance beyond that (as far as I am aware anyway).  But, given that Americans are wonderfully ignorant of other cultures beyond what we see on TV or in the movie theater, there are those who see such alien actions such as bowing to be some kind of religious action as opposed to their much more mundane origins.*



Wonderfully ignorant, nice choice of words, Mr Helpful.  Ya ever
give thought to the fact that we just don't care?  It's NOT our
culture, so we took what was "theirs" and made it "ours".  It's
not blaspheme to anyone, it's customization.  The bow has
different meanings to different people in different arts.  None of 
the styles lifewise studies are Japanese arts.  My understanding
is that the bow in Kenpo was left in the system (if we're talking
EPAK) by Ed Parker as an homage to the asian history of which
the art comes from.  That's all there is, there ain't no more.  It's
not even like a handshake in this country.


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## Matt Stone

Apparently, you must be one of those folks that is either easily offended, or you cast yourself into the category of the unenlightened masses who are content to only learn bits and pieces and continue on "because you don't care" about anything else...

I am certainly happy for you, with your whole 9 months of training, that you don't care about the rest of the background of what you do, or for that matter, based on your "we don't care" attitude, _why_ you do it.

It is, after all, your right to remain ignorant of whatever information you choose to avoid.  If you are satisified with only what you are told, and choose not to delve further into topics because you are content with a superficial understanding, so be it.  :asian:



> It's NOT our culture, so we took what was "theirs" and made it "ours".



And that is a major problem with American culture and American MA...  We decide we like something, take it for ourselves, then make use of it out of context or apply it incorrectly.  We re-write history, we "absorb what is useful" but haven't got the first clue _why_ it was useful to begin with...  It all remains the product of perpetuated ignorance.

I would apologize for my post having offended you in some way if I truly cared.  You are upset at my comment for some reason, and if it were because I had erred somehow then I would be concerned.  But you simply choose to be offended (or at least apprear so - electronic communication can be misleading) just "because."  Whatever.



> It's not even like a handshake in this country.



And that is where your ignorance betrays you...  The bow is as western a tradition as it is eastern.  Bowing has both civil application as well as religious application in both European and American tradition.  The bow has been used by itself or accompanying a handshake, although it has fallen into disuse during the last century.  

So it is the same, both sides of the world.  But in the American pursuit of individuality, we have relegated respect and courtesy to the back seat, and the bow along with it (handshake, too, for that matter...).

Gambarimasu.


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## Kirk

In EPAK it is NOT a handshake, period.  You're coming across
as all knowing, and the rest of us "ignorant" <== YOUR words,
so tell me how YOU know what Ed Parker kept the bow in the
system for?!  When did you last talk with him?  

I'm not easily offended.  You called my country's citizens ignorant
because YOU feel it necessary to know a bunch of "history" 
associated with martial arts in order to practice them.  Does a 
scientist need to know where a test tube came from?  Who 
invented it, and why, to be an effective scientist? NOPE!  Stop 
stating your opinion as fact, and stop insulting my countrymen to 
pump your own gnads.  Do you even GET that?!?!?  For every
"fact" you'll give me from some book, there's another book out
there stating something different.  Look at your post .. it's 
OPINION.  

We haven't relegated respect and courtesy to the back seat,
we've made our own, just like all other countries have done
in their own time.  Just because the U.S is younger, doesn't
mean we're not allowed the same right.  Where is it written
that we have to follow the same customs of courtesy as
Japan?




> I am certainly happy for you, with your whole 9 months of training, that you don't care about the rest of the background of what you do, or for that matter, based on your "we don't care" attitude, why you do it.



WHATEVER dude!  I suppose you think that's clever?  See, here
in America we have this little thing called FREEDOM, and I have
the full God given right to say whatever the hell I want to, 
regardless of how much training I have.  There's plenty of 
American martial artists that have kicked the living crap out of
"Traditional" practioners in the style of their native country.  So
don't start with me about  how "ignorant" we are.  Apparently
we customize WELL, and the inappropriate use of the word 
Sensei, or our "wonderful ignorance" in bowing, or not following 
Zen Budhism hasn't stopped us from successful progression.  

Do you feel that there's only ONE reason to study M.A?  Only one
path that someone can follow on this journey?  Why oh why 
would asian traditions or history factor in things in ANY way?!?!


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## sweeper

well if I recal I think the nod of the head as a greeting or acknowledgement was rooted sort of as a mini bow..  could be wrong on this don't even remember where I read/heard it..


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## Kirk

> _Originally posted by sweeper _
> 
> *well if I recal I think the nod of the head as a greeting or acknowledgement was rooted sort of as a mini bow..  could be wrong on this don't even remember where I read/heard it.. *



So far in my miniscule 9 months (11 now), we've never used it
when facing someone, greeting someone, etc. ... nor have we
used a full bow, other than when stepping on or off the mat ..
as I said, as an homage to where the art came from.  We've
never done it to each other, we salute, hand over fist.


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## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *In EPAK it is NOT a handshake, period.  You're coming across as all knowing, and the rest of us "ignorant" <== YOUR words, so tell me how YOU know what Ed Parker kept the bow in the system for?!  When did you last talk with him?*



I suppose the same could be asked of you.  Do you now present yourself publicly as a spokesperson for all of EPAK?  I think I will post in the Kenpo forum and ask just such a question - what is the bow in EPAK for?  Sounds like a good thread to start in many forums, actually... 



> *I'm not easily offended.  You called my (bold added by Yiliquan1 for emphasis) country's citizens ignorant because YOU feel it necessary to know a bunch of "history" associated with martial arts in order to practice them.*



Funny you post this in this particular manner...  Just out of curiosity, where, pray tell, do you think *I* am from? :ticked:  _Read_ my posts completely next time, and you will see the use of the word "we" when I am talking about Americans...  Might that not indicate something Mr. Over-reacting?



> *Does a scientist need to know where a test tube came from?  Who invented it, and why, to be an effective scientist? NOPE!*



Surely not.  However I suspect that a scientist worth his salt likely _does_ know something of the formation of glass, how glass is prepared, and what its strengths and weaknesses are.  Failure to know this information could very well lead to a disaster in the labratory...  For example, which beaker do you put sulphuric acid in?  The plastic one or the glass one?  Why is there a difference?



> *Stop stating your opinion as fact, and stop insulting my (bold added by Yiliquan1 for emphasis)countrymen to pump your own gnads.*



Never did state that my opinion was fact.  And it seems that you, so far, are the only one insulted...  Perhaps my comments struck too close to home? 



> *Do you even GET that?!?!?*



Get what, dear?



> *For every "fact" you'll give me from some book, there's another book out there stating something different.  Look at your post .. it's OPINION.*



See above response.  Never said what I said was fact.  If I believe a thing, then in _my_ reality it is fact.  Perhaps such things are not fact in _your_ reality.  Entirely possible.  My teachers, martial and otherwise, taught me that superficial knowledge was insufficient.  There is always more to know, another road that knowledge will take leading you to other topics, subjects, and experiences.  You seem to be unwilling to go down those paths, and I have previously expressed my kudos to you for being content with what you already have.



> *We haven't relegated respect and courtesy to the back seat, we've made our own, just like all other countries have done in their own time.*



Sure.  That's why kids who are too young to shave and too poorly educated to understand most things they vote on think they can say what they want to whomever they choose...  That's why "dissing" someone can get you killed because some pre-teen is better armed and feels you aren't giving him the appropriate "props" to him and his "peeps" because you refuse to kow tow to some zit-faced pre-pubescent punk...  That's why little old ladies fear leaving their apartments, and the people that would be inclined to help said little old lady across the street with her groceries are liable to be slapped with a lawsuit for even thinking she needed help in the first place...

You're right.  Americans are famous world wide for their respectful, courteous demeanor...  Especially in a country where English isn't spoken.  Then we are _incredibly_ polite and understanding... not. :disgust:



> *Just because the U.S is younger, doesn't mean we're not allowed the same right.  Where is it written that we have to follow the same customs of courtesy as Japan?*



It isn't.  But we don't follow the customs of courtesy of our *own* country, either... 



> *WHATEVER dude!  I suppose you think that's clever?*



No, just appropriate for placing your comments regarding martial studies into context.  :asian:



> *See, here in America we have this little thing called FREEDOM, and I have the full God given right to say whatever the hell I want to, regardless of how much training I have. *



Or how old you are, how right you are, how wrong or misinformed you may be, etc.  And, interestingly enough, so do I...



> *There's plenty of American martial artists that have kicked the living crap out of "Traditional" practioners in the style of their native country.  So don't start with me about  how "ignorant" we are.  Apparently we customize WELL, and the inappropriate use of the word  Sensei, or our "wonderful ignorance" in bowing, or not following Zen Budhism hasn't stopped us from successful progression.*



And any of that has bearing on the issue of American rudeness and lack of background knowledge how?  That we can "kick the crap" out of people who are aware of their own cultural expressions that we pretend to use but are ignorant of?  And I am not really sure what Zen Buddhism (note the spelling - 2 "d's", not one...) has to do with this...



> *Do you feel that there's only ONE reason to study M.A?*



Yes.  The right way.  And that means to leave _nothing_ unstudied, no area of knowledge or learning untapped...  To do any less is to accept a lower standard, and lower standards cheapen what we do...



> *Why oh why would asian traditions or history factor in things in ANY way?!?! *



Because they place things into a contextual relationship that allows you to understand why you do Thing A and not Thing B...  Go ask your teacher(s) these same questions.  I would be interested in their answers...

Gambarimasu.


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## sweeper

I meant the nod of the head in genneral american culture.


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## Matt Stone

The nod is a decreased bow.  Dead on the money, sweeper.

The salute in common military use evolved from a number of different sources.  The Roman Legions practiced striking the chest with the weapon hand to show allegiance to their superiors.  The knights of medieval Europe extended an open weapon hand to show they were unarmed.  While armored, they used their weapon hand to raise their visor to show their face, thus displaying a non-violent intent to whomever they were greeting.  In colonial America, it was considered a polite greeting for one man to remove his hat to another (and it is still considered impolite to wear a hat indoors, but tell kids that these days and they will roll their eyes and complain), and this gradually changed into a tipping of the cap.

Note:  All of these practices could include an optional bow.


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## lifewise

I would like to start by saying I appreciate all opinions on topics I post on Martial Talk. It is vitally important that we remain friendly here. There is no value to this forum if we don't.

The fact that this thread has taken this path is discouraging to me.  

We are all entitled to our opinions and views - just as my neighbour was to hers. However wrong I thought she was ... it was obvious that changing her mind was not something that could be done. I really don't think it was my place to tell her she was wrong, just as it wasn't her place to tell me my practice of the martial arts was sinister. 

Please gentlemen, I found both of your original opinions/posts to be of value - and sincerely appreciate Sweeper's attempt to bring this back on track. asian: Thanks Sweeper)

Respectfully,


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> * We've never done it to each other, we salute, hand over fist. *




What does this hand over fist represent?
Is it a technique or some sort of other meaning?


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## Kirk

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *
> 
> 
> What does this hand over fist represent?
> Is it a technique or some sort of other meaning? *



Not at technique, although used in our forms and sets.
Short answer: to indicate respect to one you are greeting or competing against at a tournament, in opening and closing a class, etc. 

Long answer, for what little I know:

The Taoist and Buddhist monks traveled across China spreading their doctrine. As they traveled their hands were held in a prayful manor. The warrior monks began to travel with the peaceful monks for two reasons; one, to protect the more passive monks, and two, to use their avocation in society as a cover to spread their knowledge to force the hated Mongols out of China. When some of the monks began to fight with great ability, rumors began to spread that all of these monks were fierce warriors. 
   There were many secret societies at this time. The warrior monks, many who were members of a secret society developed the hand salute, hand over fist, as a variation of the praying hands of the peaceful monks. This continued to be the "greeting or salute" used today by the EPAK system. 

The EPAK Salutation is a combination of the "old and the new." The initial part of our salute honors the originators of the art, the Chinese. Prior to the establishment of what was called "Shao-lin," an open left hand resting on a clenched right fist was used as a salutation or salute just before the commencement of a set or form. There were several meanings to this gesture: 

(1) Respect to the originator of the particular system, including all who had studied before him, with him, and presently study under him. 

(2) Respect to those who would spectate and observe the movements. 

(3) Respect to both scholars and warriors who were practitioners alike, since the left hand (open) of this salutation represented the scholar and the right hand (clenched), the man who actually executed the science the warrior


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## RyuShiKan

I believe the hand salutation is called Sun Moon fist in Chinese. 
We have the exact same move for the opening move in one of our kata, it is actually a technique that hurts like hell.
As in all MA there is no wasted motion so even a salutation can be a defense.


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## Kirk

No argument there, that is a philosophy emphasized in EPAK (no
wasted motion).  It may very well be used in a technique, but
I'm not aware of it yet ... I'm NOT trying to call you out, I'm
sincerely wanting to know ... can you explain further, regarding 
using it as a defense?


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> * ... can you explain further, regarding
> using it as a defense? *




Sorry I have found the Internet a miserable tool for conveying how to do technique.............ya just have to see it and feel it to understand it. 

Aren't you the guy that was slinging mud my way in another thread and now you want me to be your "pal" and share some technique with you?
I find that rather odd.........


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## Kirk

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *
> 
> 
> Sorry I have found the Internet a miserable tool for conveying how to do technique.............ya just have to see it and feel it to understand it. *



Fair enough.


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## Wertle

> Sorry I have found the Internet a miserable tool for conveying how to do technique.............ya just have to see it and feel it to understand it.



We need a webcam demonstration section! ^_^


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Wertle _
> 
> *
> 
> We need a webcam demonstration section! ^_^ *




Interesting thought............wonder why nobody has done it before ................or maybe they have.


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## fissure

I was told by one Korean Master( I use the term loosley) that the 'hand covering the fist' bow/salute coveys a 'veiled weapon' to the person you are bowing to. Why you would give this message to someone you are about to pummle, I have no idea!
It aslo pops up in the 7th Taeguek form. Some beleive this is a "readying" motion, others ( myself included) read a stricking motion to the middle secton.
Lifewise as to your neighbour - one guy in my neighbourhood has his house painted pink.There are nuts all over the place!:EG:


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by fissure _
> 
> *Some beleive this is a "readying" motion, others ( myself included) read a stricking motion to the middle secton. *



I've heard that more with Naihanchi Shodan's open hand over open hand. The open hand over fist I've heard as an allegory of shield/weapon or covered weapon etc. but George Dillman teaches it as a wristlock which I like (the idea of, not so much this particualr lock). The open hand is grabbing a hand that's grabbed the wrist of the closed hand and the hands are moving to execute a lock.


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## Matt Stone

But rather than share it and get attacked as a "know it all," I'll just remain silent and keep it to myself...

:shrug:

Gambarimasu.


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## fissure

> The open hand is grabbing a hand that's grabbed the wrist of the closed hand and the hands are moving to execute a lock.


This sounds more like the movement of Shotokan's Kanku - sho(sp) where the hand covers the wrist. I'm having truoble invisioning the hand covering the front of the fist being used in this way.I'm not saying your wrong I'm going to think on this some more


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## Wertle

> Interesting thought............wonder why nobody has done it before ................or maybe they have.



It might be a useful resource for us visual-spacial learners, but I know I'd be uncontrollabley camera shy, and would probably implode before demonstrating a technique on a webcam x_x


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *But rather than share it and get attacked as a "know it all," I'll just remain silent and keep it to myself...
> *



That's a shame.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by fissure _
> 
> *
> This sounds more like the movement of Shotokan's Kanku - sho(sp) where the hand covers the wrist. I'm having truoble invisioning the hand covering the front of the fist being used in this way.I'm not saying your wrong I'm going to think on this some more *



We may be picturing it differently; I see the hand on the back of the fist (as in backfist), not the front.


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## Matt Stone

But after the last exchange, I figure I will let those who are junior in the arts figure stuff out for themselves rather than help them in their pursuits...  

They, after all, know far more than the rest of us...

Those who would like an alternate version of the reasons behind the open hand/closed fist salute can feel free to email me privately...

Gambarimasu.


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> We may be picturing it differently; I see the hand on the back of the fist (as in backfist), not the front. *




You might be since the hand movement is different in those 2 kata.


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## fissure

> We may be picturing it differently; I see the hand on the back of the fist (as in backfist), not the front


I beleive we are thinking of different motons.I took hand covering fist, to relate to the front 'punching' knuckles.


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## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *But after the last exchange, I figure I will let those who are junior in the arts figure stuff out for themselves rather than help them in their pursuits...
> 
> They, after all, know far more than the rest of us...
> 
> Those who would like an alternate version of the reasons behind the open hand/closed fist salute can feel free to email me privately...
> 
> Gambarimasu. *



You just can't let sleeping dogs lie, can you?  You complained 
about my actions, yet you're egging me on.  I never used the
term "Know it all" go back and check.  Insulting and arrogant
was definitely used, and I still stand by that.  And I never said
I knew more than you.  I did say that in the art that I study, I
have been told something contrary to what you are saying. 
I also said you're a mean person.  Regardless of your training,
your service to this country, or where you're from, when you
strip away the layers .... you're just mean.  I stand by that
statement as well.  Funny .. in my insignificant studies so far,
I was under the impression that Japanese M.A. taught humility
as well .. guess not.  Hey, that's one thing you've taught me,
thank you.

So are you now saying that you're not going to share your
knowledge anymore?  Then why bother posting here anymore?
Why don't you just leave?


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## AvPKenpo

> _Originally posted by lifewise _
> 
> *I have this neighbour that ... well, she is a lovely woman and means well but she is rather nosey and VERY opinionated as I experienced this morning.
> 
> Oh, forgot to add outspoken!
> 
> My daughter and I were out in the backyard practicing. My daughter studies EPAK and TKD, and I am solely Kenpo. Our yard is totally fenced in and has many large bushes/trees on the perimeter to provide privacy - or so I thought.
> 
> Seems the other day this lady watched us sparring in the back yard from her upstairs window.  This appears to be the worst thing a mother can do with her child according to this woman...
> 
> I am teaching her to be aggressive apparently. She continued to tell me that I am not helping the violence in the world by showing my daughter how to trip someone and hit them with that big stick. (the bo we were using)
> 
> All this she was willing to overlook until this morning. She felt compelled to come over and confront me after watching us practice EPAK salutation.
> 
> This woman is very religious and she didn't hesitate to tell me her views on my family/friends and our martial arts practice.
> 
> So here is a question for all the folks on martial talk - is the practice of martial arts a religion? In many arts, students follow a "master". There are those individuals that studied directly with this "master"  so are they "disciples"? Those who practice continue to "spread the word" or art and in doing so we "recruit" new souls?
> 
> This morning has been an interesting one ... lets see what your comments are.
> 
> :asian:
> 
> P.S. I will use the asian bow here, hopefully no one is watching through the window! :rofl: *



My first thought is to invite your nosey neighbor over, and use her to demonstrate dance of death to your daughter.
I am religous person also, we are not disciples we do not worship the person that heads what ever art we study.  Think of it this way, just becuase I go to school and there is a "schoolmaster" and I am a student does that also mean that I worship them.  Of course not.  If your neighbor does not want to understand this, then who cares.  If she keeps doing a "peeping tom", and you find this irritating, then call the cops on her.  hehehe  Sorry I don't have a lot of tolerance for people that act like that.  But she is invading your privacy.

Michael


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## AvPKenpo

> _Originally posted by lifewise _
> 
> *
> 
> No this woman isn't nuts - just very opinionated and takes "neighbourhood watch" literally!
> 
> I did just that - I simply listened to her views, and wished her a good day. It wasn't that I didn't think of things I would have LIKED to say ... but I wasn't raised that way. *



That is usually the best step, if she keeps nosing in, I would suggest trying to be-friend her, and maybe on down the road you can explain to her what exactly you are accomplishing with your martial arts.

Michael


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## arnisador

In this thread a news story is cited about a judoka contesting the requirement that she bow before competition as she objected to it on religious grounds. The judge ruled that she could be required to bow.


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## Dronak

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *What does this hand over fist represent?
> Is it a technique or some sort of other meaning? *



Assuming we're all talking about the same basic gesture, I can give you a little information from _Shaolin Long Fist Kung Fu_ by Yang Jwing-Ming and Jeffery A. Bolt.  This is mentioned in the beginning section on Shaolin history.  I'll quote the relevant section; it's most of one paragraph but you've got the reference for it.

Many of the monks, however, did more than teach Wu Su to ordinary people -- they and their disciples organized resistance movements against the Chin dynasty.  The reestablishment of the previous Ming dynasty became the goal of many Chinese.  To symbolize the wish to return to the glory of the Ming, Shao Lin disciples used a special hand signal -- this hand signal is seen in Figure 2.  In Chinese the word _Ming_ means "bright" and is composed of the characters for the sun and the moon, the two great sources of light or brightness.  The right hand in a fist symbolized the sun and the left open hand symbolized the moon; together the fist and open hand meant bright or Ming.  When a person showed the hand signal he indicated two things:  first, the Ming dynasty must return, and secondly, that the person showing the hand signal was himself "bright" and an agent for justice.

That seems to be a more historical meaning than a present day meaning.  I kind of doubt most people consider using that as indicating a desire to return to the Ming dynasty.    When we had an exam earlier this year, I asked our teacher about how to begin, if we should use that hand signal as we did for a recent demonstration or a plain bow or what.  I think that's when he said that using the hand signal is a form of a bow, but a more formal one, and that for an exam like this we should use a regular bend forward from the waist bow because it's a more humble bow.  As for use of the bow, we really only use it with our teacher.  When he arrives, we bow to him and before class breaks up and we leave, we bow again.  As our teacher stated in a handout he gave us, "whenever master arrives, everyone should stop what they are doing and show proper respect by facing him and bowing.  After all, a master have demonstrated to the Grandmaster that he possess the necessary talent and knowledge to reach this high level."  So I'd say we use it mainly as a sign of respect for our teacher and the art as a whole.


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## lifewise

WOW, leave you guys alone for a bit and look what comes out! It never ceases to amaze me how topics evolve here on MT....


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## lifewise

> _Originally posted by AvPKenpo _
> 
> *
> 
> My first thought is to invite your nosey neighbor over, and use her to demonstrate dance of death to your daughter.
> 
> *




I can't help but laugh at the idea of this! :rofl:


----------



## lifewise

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *But after the last exchange, I figure I will let those who are junior in the arts figure stuff out for themselves rather than help them in their pursuits...
> 
> They, after all, know far more than the rest of us...
> 
> *



As a "junior" in the arts I have respect for those "seniors" that TREAT "juniors" with respect. I believe your comment here however is unfair. 

I personally enjoyed your contributions on the topic. However, if you really feel this way and are not simply venting your anger  here, what good are your posts? 

Respectfully,
:asian:


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## AvPKenpo

> _Originally posted by lifewise _
> 
> *
> 
> 
> I can't help but laugh at the idea of this! :rofl: *



I think your daughter would learn a lot..............well, maybe not a lot, but it would sure be entertaining.  You could always be like Ozzy's family and throw bricks in her windows, or was it a dead chicken...hmmm.......:angel: 

Michael


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## Klondike93

When I was learning to be a bartender, there were 3 things I was told to never discuss with a customer : 

1.  Never discuss religon

2.  Never discuss money

3.  Never discuss politics

The reason was it would cause more arguments than anything else. This is what I see has somewhat happened here.

Well me I'm not religous so that has no bearing here for me, but it does for others, which is fine that's their right. 
Sport, not really any more, but at one time it was.
Hobby, that would be my Mustang not my MA.
Way of life, that would best describe it now for me, after being in it for the better part of 28 years.

The nosy woman should be told to go on and mind her own buisness, but we know she won't do that.



> it was obvious that changing her mind was not something that could be done. I really don't think it was my place to tell her she was wrong, just as it wasn't her place to tell me my practice of the martial arts was sinister.



So you won't change her mind, but you need to point out that it's  also wrong for her to try and force her opinion on you and your daughter.  It is your place to tell her she's got the wrong idea about it and to try and change it as best you can. That's what I would do, but I also wouldn't try endlessly to get the point across. Try once or twice and then let it go and go about your own buisness and let it go, as best you can I guess.



> Aren't you the guy that was slinging mud my way in another thread and now you want me to be your "pal" and share some technique with you?I find that rather odd



I find it odd you need to bring this kind of thing up, what do you hope gain by it, embarrass the guy?




> But rather than share it and get attacked as a "know it all," I'll just remain silent and keep it to myself...



This sounds really childish on your part. You make yourself look bad when acting like this. The man took offense to something you wrote, get over it. I'm sure someone will take offense to this post but it is after all, just my opinion.


:soapbox: 

Stepping down now


:asian:


----------



## Matt Stone

> This sounds really childish on your part. You make yourself look bad when acting like this.



You are right on the money.

I deliberately baited Kirk, knowing that certain comments would elicit a certain response on his part.

Shame on me for doing that, and shame on Kirk for falling for it.

His comments pushed my buttons, and instead of responding in a more adult fashion, I gave in to my feelings and said some things that ought not to have been said...

Kirk, forgive me.  What I did _was_ childish, and made _both_ of us look bad.  I recommend we both act like the adults we think we are (sometimes I slip, I guess) and get on with our training and learning...

:asian:  Gomen nasai  :asian:

Gambarimasu.


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *
> 
> 
> Sorry I have found the Internet a miserable tool for conveying how to do technique.............ya just have to see it and feel it to understand it.
> 
> Aren't you the guy that was slinging mud my way in another thread and now you want me to be your "pal" and share some technique with you?
> I find that rather odd......... *



I wasn't slinging mud.  I was calling attention to the fact that
you're very crude and mean to others.  That's all.  The thing 
about your posts is you seem to either share knowledge, or
put others down.  I don't see you doing anything else.  So if
you're looking to share, then I read what you have to say.  If
you're looking to be a jerk, then I'll say that you're being mean.
If you go back and check the thread, YOU addressed me first.
So you came in a guise of cool and nice, and then you turned
it around and accused me of somehow desiring you as my "pal".
I find THAT rather odd.  And I make the accusation sir that YOU
thrive on conflict, and being mean.  This is as nicely as I can put
it.  We wouldn't want your boy running off and telling daddy 
again, now would we?


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *.*


----------



## Sigung86

Don't anybody hit me, Please!!!??? 

If you look at old 8mm film or video xferred, as it were, you will often time see SGM Parker, and some of the old timers standing in a neutral stance with their hands folded in the "left over right" waiting for the commencement of the attack.  

From the basic salutation as used in Kenpo, as used in "kung fu", and as used as a variant in most Asian Arts, come many different implementations.

Now... Having said that ... I will say, regarding the nosy zealot ... It is often best to simply let them have their say, acknowledge their right to have their say, listen, then go on as you were.

Now ... I'm outta here before someone takes a verbal swing!
I'm thinking of Brothers Castillo, Conatser, and Broad! 
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan "Duckin', Dodgin', Exitin' rapidly" Farmer


----------



## lifewise

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *
> 
> You are right on the money.
> 
> I deliberately baited Kirk, knowing that certain comments would elicit a certain response on his part.
> 
> Shame on me for doing that, and shame on Kirk for falling for it.
> 
> His comments pushed my buttons, and instead of responding in a more adult fashion, I gave in to my feelings and said some things that ought not to have been said...
> 
> Kirk, forgive me.  What I did was childish, and made both of us look bad.  I recommend we both act like the adults we think we are (sometimes I slip, I guess) and get on with our training and learning...
> 
> :asian:  Gomen nasai  :asian:
> 
> Gambarimasu. *




 Nice post Matt. 

:asian:


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by lifewise _
> 
> *Nice post Matt. *



It's good to see posts like these! We have to remember how easy it is for things to be misconstrued over the Internet, with no body language, vocal intonation, ability to quickly correct a misunderstood comment/failed joke, etc.


----------



## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by lifewise _
> 
> *
> 
> 
> Nice post Matt.
> 
> :asian: *



Thanks, but apparently it fell on deaf ears...



> _Originally posted by Kirk_
> 
> *We wouldn't want your boy running off and telling daddy again, now would we?*



In other news...



> _Originally posted by Sigung56_
> 
> *If you look at old 8mm film or video xferred, as it were, you will often time see SGM Parker, and some of the old timers standing in a neutral stance with their hands folded in the "left over right" waiting for the commencement of the attack.*



In CMA circles, you will see a huge variety of different kinds of bows, with different hand positions and meanings...  Two people could bow nearly identically, yet have separate and distinct reasons for why they do what they do...

It is my understanding that the hand positions have varying meanings...  Both hands palms together would refer to a pacifist who would not fight.  One hand clenched in a fist, the other palm open (either wrapped around the fist, or held with the fingers and thumb extended and joined) represented a "fighting monk" or some such thing - a person who would resist fighting, but when pressed wouldn't be beyond busting a few heads...  There is a hand position, right fist out as in a punch, left hand palm open, fingertips touching the right fist, thumb toward the ground (so the left hand is horizontal, little finger up, thumb down) was the salute to instigate a challenge match...

Sometimes the practitioner bows, sometimes he nods, sometimes he just stands there and presents his/her hands to you...  At different CMA tournaments over the years, I have seen a lot of weird things.  Whatever.  To each their own...

Gambarimasu.


----------



## chufeng

For me, MA is a "way" of life...

It has enhanced my appreciation of many religions...
It has strengthened my own spirtual beliefs...
It has shown me how to deal with many of life's "road blocks" (aka stepping stones)...
It has also shown me how to deal with NOSY neighbors...

I won't offer advice...it seems you have matters well in hand...
As you can see from some posts, those with strong opinions will express them whenever and wherever they can...

I am sometimes guilty of being too expressive...
But if we were all the same, what a boring world this would be.

:asian:
chufeng


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## lifewise

It didn't fall on deaf ears Matt. 

Integrity may be silent, but is echoed to many. 

:asian:


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## RyuShiKan

In Japan there are several types bows each of which show different amounts of respect for the intended person or in some cases thing. Department stores in Japan spend days teaching their employees how to bow properly. You be surprised at how many Japanese do not know how to bow properly. I haven't had a Japanese student  in my dojo yet that knew how to bow like they are supposed to. Kinda weird having a "gaijin" teach them how to bow I imagine.

The Full seated bow with head going all the way to the floor with only 3 fingers touching is called "ohjigi" and is probably the most polite.
It's not used very much and normally only done for VIP, or in front of certain religious objects and so on.

The standing 90 degree bow might the 2nd most respectful bow. This is done with a 90 degree bend at the waist.

Next is 45 degrees.
Then 30 degrees. Common every day bow.

And lastly a "nod". This is usually done by teachers towards there students or very junior people. 

It should be noted that when I say "respectful" in the above cases it doesn't always mean respect to the person. Japanese people are often perfunctory in their manners and in some cases do things out of "respect" for not making for the situation.
For example, someone might do an ohjigi type bow even though they can't stand the person they are doing it to, however they do it because they don't want to embarrass the group or situation they are in and also because it is "the thing to do". You wouldn't know it by looking at them but they could actually be thinking "I'd like to cut your heart out and feed it to my pet goldfish".

The converse is also true. An instructor who may have a great deal respect for his students wouldn't normally do anymore than a nod or a 30 deg. bow. Why? It's just not done, protocol and all that. It would be what the Japanese call "baka tene" or stupid politeness........meaning overly polite for no reason.


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## Matt Stone

I was taught that a senior should _always_ bow lower than a junior...  And that a junior should _always_ bow lower than a senior...

There is bowing with your body, but there is also bowing with your heart...

A difference exists.  

Bowing is the first lesson a student should receive, and it is often one of the last lessons that actually bears fruit.  But that doesn't mean they don't know how to bend from the waist properly...  :idea:



Gambarimasu.


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *
> 
> In CMA circles, you will see a huge variety of different kinds of bows, with different hand positions and meanings...  Two people could bow nearly identically, yet have separate and distinct reasons for why they do what they do...
> 
> It is my understanding that the hand positions have varying meanings...  Both hands palms together would refer to a pacifist who would not fight.  One hand clenched in a fist, the other palm open (either wrapped around the fist, or held with the fingers and thumb extended and joined) represented a "fighting monk" or some such thing - a person who would resist fighting, but when pressed wouldn't be beyond busting a few heads...  There is a hand position, right fist out as in a punch, left hand palm open, fingertips touching the right fist, thumb toward the ground (so the left hand is horizontal, little finger up, thumb down) was the salute to instigate a challenge match...
> 
> Sometimes the practitioner bows, sometimes he nods, sometimes he just stands there and presents his/her hands to you...  At different CMA tournaments over the years, I have seen a lot of weird things.  Whatever.  To each their own...
> 
> Gambarimasu. *



Okay, look at the post times .. we were both typing at the same
time.  Also ..look at the posts before that, I tried to let it go.

Now let me apologize in kind, I'm sorry.  I have a nasty temper
that I USUALLY don't let get the best of me, but I did this time
and again, in agreement with you, it was childish and made both 
of us look bad.  I'll try to handle myself more like an adult as
well, in the future! :asian:


----------



## Rob_Broad

Alright, enough with the bickering!  This isn't coming in as a Mod Note, this is coming from a person who really enjoys MT and is tired of seeing all the attitudes as of late.  It has taken a lot of work from Kaith, Arnisador, Cthulu, and Renegade to build this place up and then I see a bunch of petty squabbling which destroys what has been created.

It is just not this thread, I have seen it in several threads lately people, commenting with a holier than than thou attitude, others baiting people, all i can say is KNOCK IT OFF.  This is supposed to be a place for friendly discussion!


----------



## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> 
> *...all i can say is KNOCK IT OFF.*



I thought we had...

Kirk and I have agreed to make nice.

Other discussions elsewhere have remained polite and courteous for several posts now...

I think folks just got a little carried away with their opinions...

But, that is what happens when I am right and everyone else fails to acknowledge it!  

Thanks for the reminder, though.

:asian:

Gambarimasu.


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## Bob Hubbard

Sometimes, we're late to the party. 

Seriously, Thanks guys for taking the high road here and moving on.  Theres too much information to share with each other to keep banging our heads on the keyboards in frustration.  (Ya catch 'qwertys' that way ya know.) 

Thank you to everyone whose taken steps to get things civil again.
:asian:


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## arnisador

Thread moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------

