# Wanted to mention



## Xue Sheng (Jun 25, 2007)

There are a few posts I have been coming across lately discussing the effectiveness of TMA and some others have pointed to outrageous claims of current CTMA teachers in China or legendary claims of the past and to be honest that is pretty much true, but it is not the whole truth. There are a lot of teachers in China making outrageous claims as to their ability and what they can teach you and a lot of this is due to the New China and its approach to capitalism. Everybody wants to make money and the Westerners going to China to become Martial Arts Masters, or to pad the resume, are who they are targeting so they claim they are and/or their CMA is better, faster, stronger and more dangerous than the other guys. I ran into one in Beijing that was a self proclaimed Yang Style Taiji master that I was supposed to meet and train push hands with. That was until I arrived and he wanted to know my background, after that he admitted he did not do push hands much and all he taught was 24 form in the park. I saw a lot of bad Yang Taiji in the parks of Beijing. Most of it bad Yang style (but then there was more Yang than anything else). The only Taiji I saw that was rather good was a couple of guys doing Chen by themselves and guy doing Wu by himself and a guy doing Sun by himself. And then there were the 2 old guys doing long fist and that was rather amazing to watch actually. 

And there are also rather outrageous Legendary claims about Chinese Martial Arts masters. My favorite is that they all appear to be undefeated&#8230;. If this is the case who did they fight with? And yet in some cases they never were defeated, but what does that actually mean. Mostly that they never were defeated by those that they fought in their area of China, not all of China, just a small part of it. 

I liked it when I read the History of Wang Xiangzhai, the founder of Yiquan. Believe it or not he was actually defeated from time to time. Apparently one of the few that admits it, but this is, at least in part what lead to the development of Yiquan, which after it was developed he was of course never defeated. 

It is sales mainly, but there are real CMA masters there and they tend not to advertise much or at all and this is due to Chinese Culture (they do it in the USA too, my Sanda teacher tells no one and my Yang Sifu does not advertise). I am not saying those that advertise are no good, there are many that are and there are many that are not. Generally, and I hate to say this, the better ones have a lot of Chinese students, but this is not always an indicator either. 

There are a couple of things to take into account about Chinese culture before you start judging entire systems and the teachers of these systems. First there is an old saying from China that was very much true during the Cultural Revolution. &#8220;The nail that sticks up gets pounded down&#8221; So you would tend not to make yourself to popular or stand out based on that and they were killing people that stood out during the cultural revolution and much of that was targeted at the old ways which included TCMA. 

And then there is this story that I read a long time ago that I again came across in a copy of Sun Zi (Sun Tzu) Bing Fa (Art of War) that I had that was translated by Thomas Cleary that is also still very true of Chinese culture, although not as much as it use to be. 



> &#8220;According to an old story, a lord of ancient China once asked a physician, a member of a family of healers, which of them was the most skilled in the art.
> The physician, whose reputation was such that his name became synonymous with medical science in China, replied, &#8220;My eldest brother cures sickness and removes it before it takes shape, so his name never gets out of the house.
> My elder brother cures sickness when it is still extremely minute, so his name never gets out of the neighborhood.
> As for me, I puncture veins, prescribe potions, and massage skin, so my name gets out and is heard among the lords.&#8221; &#8211; Sun Zi (Translated by Thomas Cleary)



You will find a very similar thing in finding CMA teachers in China. The best generally are not known by many, they tend to not advertise, they don&#8217;t trust outsiders and since no phonebook exist in Beijing (or at least I didn&#8217;t see one) I think you get the picture. 

Just before I left Beijing I was given a name of an old Buddhist that my mother-in-law heard of only because she is a Buddhist. This gentleman was likely in his late 70s or early 80s and had done Xingyi and Bagua for a very long time. Maybe it was me but I could tell by looking at him he was very likely the real deal and he had that Xingyi master look that basically scares the living daylights out of you when they look at you. But due to lack of time, language issues (he spoke no English and I spoke way to little mandarin) and my feelings of complete inadequacy at Xingyi at that moment I did not train with him. 

I guess the point I am trying to make here is that if you go to China to train it is very much buyer beware but that does not mean that there are not some excellent martial artists there, they just don&#8217;t talk about it much. And of course this is another issue to take into account when judging CMA and CMA teachers.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 25, 2007)

I hope that trip was productive for you.

You make some valid points with your stories


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## kidswarrior (Jun 25, 2007)

Great post, *XS*. Lots of real-world experience and wisdom shining through. Thanks for sharing.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 25, 2007)

Real world and wisdom!  That was a great post!


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## terryl965 (Jun 25, 2007)

Excellent post and advice for all of those that read your post.


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## Rabu (Jun 25, 2007)

Great post.

I wrote a really well worded post all about Elvis which just dissapeared.  I will take that as a sign from the undefeated king not to post his favorite fried chicken recipe in public.

I promise, it made sense in relation to your post Xue....but really, re writing it is like trying to re explain the punch line to a joke.

Legends are great for entertainment and inspiration.  Real people help inspire me to stay in class and work.

Best regards,

Rob


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## Steel Tiger (Jun 25, 2007)

Excellent post XS.  Its good to see someone pointing the realities and truths about the state of MA in China at the moment.


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## exile (Jun 25, 2007)

All of the above, O fellow HCC!

Unfortunately, it does create a problem for the sincere pursuit of MA skills: if the really good ones are the ones you don't hear about... how do you find out about them??? Because of your family situation you have a leg up on the quest already, but without that kind of `in', it seems as though a westerner who wants to train high-quality CMA and goes to China to do so is taking an awful chance. 

Just out of curiosity, what would you advise someone who was in that situationwanted the real deal, money no object, but didn't have a connection to the situation `on the ground' there, so to speak, and only so much time available in the country. What would be the best move they could make? Since I don't do CMAs, this isn't something that bears on any decision I have to make, but it might be good for those who _are_ CMA devotees to know your views about how best to proceed...


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 25, 2007)

I agree with you, Xue Sheng. But most of those olde people, though their form may be great, cannot really fight, which I think is the most important thing about MA, because they never get "physical". There is a place in Gansu where a family is teaching stick/staff combat but I was unable to find any contact information on them without going there myself and I was told that they do not teach to anyone outside of their family name. You will also find some of these kind of teachers. Very sad, indeed.

What Xue Sheng is speaking of exists, but with every passing year their number decreases with no one to take their places. I know some people and have some good leads to honest martial arts teachers in China. If anyone is looking to come to China let me know and I will do what I can to help.

Exile: Your best bet is to learn Chinese and how to deal with Chinese people before you go, unless you have a local with you that can translate (And even then). Many teachers don't want to deal with you because of the language barrier. Others don't trust foreigners. Still others would love to teach a foreigner for face and/or money.

Then there are the VERY few that have a passion and if they believe that you share that passion and have good character may teach you. But it is difficult to find them and requires a dedicated spirit. If you really want it, you will find it (If it exists).

You should also research the area that you will be going to, beforehand. Some places are very much lacking in MA and some places have only imports. As for me, I live in China full-time, but, as I don't like big cities, have had trouble finding the real deal in the places that I've been. I have found a handful of good teachers, though, and try to keep a positive mindset, even amidst the chaos that China can be. China is choc a bloc full of people and one can't always tell an MAist just by looking at them. You need to talk to people that are there full-time or go there yourself and find a job like I have done, while you search. I have met people just by practising in a public place (Though I don't like to do that).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I am going to move to another city in three days so I won't have internet for a while. I've got a lot of things to do. Anyone can leave me a message and I'll try to get back to them. &#20877;&#35265;&#12290;


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## qi-tah (Jun 26, 2007)

exile said:


> All of the above, O fellow HCC!
> 
> Unfortunately, it does create a problem for the sincere pursuit of MA skills: if the really good ones are the ones you don't hear about... how do you find out about them??? Because of your family situation you have a leg up on the quest already, but without that kind of `in', it seems as though a westerner who wants to train high-quality CMA and goes to China to do so is taking an awful chance.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, what would you advise someone who was in that situationwanted the real deal, money no object, but didn't have a connection to the situation `on the ground' there, so to speak, and only so much time available in the country. What would be the best move they could make? Since I don't do CMAs, this isn't something that bears on any decision I have to make, but it might be good for those who _are_ CMA devotees to know your views about how best to proceed...


 
Hi exile... i know yr question was directed at XS, but if you don't mind me putting in my 5 cents?

I would suggest that ppl train first with a reputable teacher in their country of origin... you know, suss out their lineage, what ties they have back in China, who they train/have trained with etc. Oh, and spend a decent amount of time at the school absorbing what the instructor has to teach! (sounds obvious i know, but still...) I actually can't imagine someone just turning up in China without any introduction to a MA teacher over there from their current instructor... surely that's just asking to get ripped off? 

I know that you said that this hypothetical person had no "connection to the situation on the ground", but to put it bluntly, it's probably better to aquire those connections before they go. Even if it takes them years.

Anyway, what's wrong with TCMA in the US, or Australia, or whereever? There are good teachers everywhere if you look. :asian:


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Jun 26, 2007)

Regarding your post, in the immortal words of Mr. Burns "Excellent".


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## Steel Tiger (Jun 26, 2007)

qi-tah said:


> Hi exile... i know yr question was directed at XS, but if you don't mind me putting in my 5 cents?
> 
> I would suggest that ppl train first with a reputable teacher in their country of origin... you know, suss out their lineage, what ties they have back in China, who they train/have trained with etc. Oh, and spend a decent amount of time at the school absorbing what the instructor has to teach! (sounds obvious i know, but still...) I actually can't imagine someone just turning up in China without any introduction to a MA teacher over there from their current instructor... surely that's just asking to get ripped off?
> 
> ...


 
A bunch of good ideas here.  The idea of an introduction is a very good one, especially in China.  There has to be a certain degree of courtesy involved if you're looking to learn from someone.  Simply showing up on their doorstep and asking to be trained strikes me as exceptionally rude.


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## pete (Jun 26, 2007)

i've never been, and probably won't be going any time soon (if ever) with kids college tuitions being what they are...but, from what i've observed...

its best to go to train in china with a teacher who has developed a relationship with someone there. if your teacher is from china, his teacher or peers will be more receptive and giving. if your teacher is not chinese, but makes annual or twice/year trips, he's done the leg work and perhaps has gained the trust and respect of the chinese teacher.  plus, in these cases your 'american' teacher will act as interpreter. i have access to both of these situations, however, money and time away from the job prevent me from going.  everyone i know who has gone, and several who have gone back, have found there training time in china to be rewarding, rigourous, and fun.

btw, i do benefit from inspired teachers and students who return home with new material to share~~~

pete


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## Tez3 (Jun 26, 2007)

I know it doesn't help any MA when people teach for money with little knowledge and as has been said it's very much buyer beware in any country but I can't find it in me to really disapprove of people who do not live in a country where wealth or even a decent living can be had easily doing whatever they can to feed families. 
 I know that to us who have jobs, healthcare etc the watering down of a pure martial art is almost sacrilege but I can also see it from the Chinese point of view that if a 'wealthy' Westerner wants to learn some CMA and they have a little knowledge why not exploit the westerner?. Especially as someone has said they turn up rudely on the doorstep! My knowledge of CMA is little but I do have a good knowledge of Chinese history. China is on the journey into capitolism again, it's a hard journey for many.There is still the tendancy for Westerners to judge things as if they were at home.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 26, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I know it doesn't help any MA when people teach for money with little knowledge and as has been said it's very much buyer beware in any country but I can't find it in me to really disapprove of people who do not live in a country where wealth or even a decent living can be had easily doing whatever they can to feed families.
> I know that to us who have jobs, healthcare etc the watering down of a pure martial art is almost sacrilege but I can also see it from the Chinese point of view that if a 'wealthy' Westerner wants to learn some CMA and they have a little knowledge why not exploit the westerner?. Especially as someone has said they turn up rudely on the doorstep! My knowledge of CMA is little but I do have a good knowledge of Chinese history. China is on the journey into capitolism again, it's a hard journey for many.There is still the tendancy for Westerners to judge things as if they were at home.


 
True, but the worst ones are never the ones that struggle to put food on the table. I can attest to that. I have been ****ed over by teachers of all variaties, so the experience is quite personal to me. It upsets me to even think of all the arseholes that I have encountered. Luckily there are several good ones that I still have a good relationship with. I'll be contacting with one of them next week to get back to training (Though he will have a baby at the same time).


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## Tez3 (Jun 26, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> True, but the worst ones are never the ones that struggle to put food on the table. I can attest to that. I have been ****ed over by teachers of all variaties, so the experience is quite personal to me. It upsets me to even think of all the arseholes that I have encountered. Luckily there are several good ones that I still have a good relationship with. I'll be contacting with one of them next week to get back to training (Though he will have a baby at the same time).


 
You seem to have a talent for picking bad martial arts instructors.People who have been around for 30/40 years in martial arts struggle to meet that many bad instructors.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 26, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> I agree with you, Xue Sheng. But most of those olde people, though their form may be great, cannot really fight, which I think is the most important thing about MA, because they never get "physical". There is a place in Gansu where a family is teaching stick/staff combat but I was unable to find any contact information on them without going there myself and I was told that they do not teach to anyone outside of their family name. You will also find some of these kind of teachers. Very sad, indeed.
> 
> What Xue Sheng is speaking of exists, but with every passing year their number decreases with no one to take their places. I know some people and have some good leads to honest martial arts teachers in China. If anyone is looking to come to China let me know and I will do what I can to help.
> 
> ...



First good luck with the move

And now

Yup that about covers it, but one thing, the guy I talked to was old and there are a lot of older very good CMA people there and they are a dying breed, but there are some that are good that are younger. And they tend to be a little easier to find, Chen Yu comes to mind in Beijing. He is Chen style taiji and in his 40s. And he is not alone. There are also those that advertise that are good but you really have to do the research first and knowing Chinese (Mandarin, Cantonese, etc &#8211; depending on where you plan to train [but Mandarin will generally do for the younger <50 crowd) helps a great deal.

But back to the older CMA teachers; it is sad to say but they are getting very old and they are passing away and entire systems are dying with them, styles like Bagua for example appear to be getting hit hard by this.  

I want to also add that I recently came across a site offering to assist people find a teacher in the North and it also offered TCM classes with prominent teachers as well. It is allegedly a site done by an American living in China (I will not post the a name, it may cause legal issues for MT) but I will say the price they are talking about for 1 week of TCM lectures is about 10 times more than you would pay if you went to Beijing Hospitals training in coordination with the World Health Organization, so you have to be very careful. 

And to everyone else but MaartenSFS; Understand MaartenSFS is there and knows more than I just by location, but I want to add this stuff can vary based on location. Thing North and South can be VERY different and Things City and Countryside ARE very different



qi-tah said:


> Hi exile... i know yr question was directed at XS, but if you don't mind me putting in my 5 cents?
> 
> I would suggest that ppl train first with a reputable teacher in their country of origin... you know, suss out their lineage, what ties they have back in China, who they train/have trained with etc. Oh, and spend a decent amount of time at the school absorbing what the instructor has to teach! (sounds obvious i know, but still...) I actually can't imagine someone just turning up in China without any introduction to a MA teacher over there from their current instructor... surely that's just asking to get ripped off?
> 
> ...



Also good advice.

It helps (A LOT) if you have some knowledge of the style you are interested in before you go. There are also a couple of websites that can help you find a good teacher, but again you really have to be careful since you really do not know who you are talking to on the other side of the web. 

Interesting note on just showing up in China without introduction. There is a Yiquan school in Beijing that is supposed to be very good. I knew about it when I was there but I had not done any prior contact before I got to Beijing. Based on this I decided it was NOT a good idea to just show up at the school and tell the Sifu &#8220;hi&#8230; I&#8217;m here from America&#8230; mind if I train here?&#8221; Not a good idea. 

I really do not have any other advice than what has already been said, I have family there so I can find stuff out easier. However that does not mean that they know who the good and bad CMA teachers are, they just may find one, like my mother-in-law did. 

It is not easy but it is possible, but you have to do the training and the research before you go and it also depends a lot on what you are looking for. If you want Wushu and Sanshou just about any Chinese Physical Education University has good programs, some better than others (just like any University) but they are all fairly good. If you want External CMA or Internal CMA it is not as easy. Taiji you can look for Taiji family members but that does not always guarantee anything either. As my wife put it, if you want to learn Chen Taiji you can go to Chen village and learn and they will teach you, or you can go look for some guy that spent his whole life learning Chen Taiji from the family and he will likely teach you just as well or better and much more cheaply, but you have to find him. He is not Chen family and making a lot of money teaching any Taiji for a non family member in China is not easy.  If I knew nothing about taiji and showed up in just about any park in Beijing I could easily have joined any of the large groups and started training Yang style 24 form and thought I was doing the real deal when in fact I was not. If that is what you want that is fine but again I saw varying degrees of teacher ability for 24 as well. Mostly bad but some were ok. 

Some other BIG issues when it comes to training in China, one was already mentioned; Language, many of these guys do not speak English, some offer Chinese Language training but none of the old guys will. Housing, were will you live, it is not like the US there is no Super 8 or Motel 6 near by. Food, it is NOT like the Chinese food you get in the US, that&#8217;s for sure. I think its better but I have talk to a few that have told me (and this is pretty funny to me) &#8220;the Chinese food in America is so much better than it is in China&#8221;. But there are Kentucky fried Chicken, McDonalds and Pizza huts. But agin it is NOT like what you are use to in the West. And to be honest WHY on earth would you eat at any of them&#8230; you&#8217;re in China for crying out loud. 

Some places like Chen village offer Package deals, food, language and a place to live. But here is something I am not sure of, I do not know if you train, as a beginner, with a member of the Chen family (Chen Xiaoxing) or if you train with one of the Chen family&#8217;s senior students until they say you are good enough to train with the family. I have heard both yes you do and no you don&#8217;t so I am not sure here. Shaolin also offers these packages but again I am not sure what you get from Shaolin other than food, housing and language lessons. I will say I was a bit taken back when I saw a listing of a whole bunch of Shaolin styles of Kung fu and Qigong and then Sanshou. This tells me that it is likely a lot of form and no application and Sanshou is for fighting. 

I do not want to discourage anyone that really wants to train there but I also do not want anyone to set things up make arrangements to go, get there get off the plane and find themselves stuck in the middle of China with no where to go. If that does happen I strongly suggest you find a Police office, at least in Beijing, they tend to be incredibly helpful if you need help

If I ever end up living there for a Year or two (and it is still a possiblity) I will look more into this and try and figure it out, but as I said it is a possiblilty not a fact yet, but as I find stuff out I will let others know.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 26, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I know it doesn't help any MA when people teach for money with little knowledge and as has been said it's very much buyer beware in any country but I can't find it in me to really disapprove of people who do not live in a country where wealth or even a decent living can be had easily doing whatever they can to feed families.
> I know that to us who have jobs, healthcare etc the watering down of a pure martial art is almost sacrilege but I can also see it from the Chinese point of view that if a 'wealthy' Westerner wants to learn some CMA and they have a little knowledge why not exploit the westerner?. Especially as someone has said they turn up rudely on the doorstep! My knowledge of CMA is little but I do have a good knowledge of Chinese history. China is on the journey into capitolism again, it's a hard journey for many.There is still the tendancy for Westerners to judge things as if they were at home.



True, but many doing this are not doing it for these reasons, a thief is a thief no matter what culture or country you are in. If they were not bilking Westerners for CMA they would be doing it another way. Go to Beijing and you will see MAJOR disparity between people that have money and people that dont and surprisingly the people that dont are not the ones trying to scam westerners out of money this way. They are the ones doing incredibly hard jobs for little pay because they cant get a real job in Beijing because they are not from Beijing and although I do not know this for a fact and it is pure speculation, if a guy shows up from the countryside and starts training CMA and he is also no good he may just get a visit from the local CMA group telling him to stop or else. I know a Chen family member was upset by a local in my area teaching Chen and claiming lineage he did not have and the Chen family member told him to stop, he of course didnt this is the USA and there was really nothing that could be done. However I got the impression that if it were  China things would have been a bit more painful. 

But  I really do not want this topic to go the West vs. China thing  or the evils of a Capitalist society  if that is what is wanted I do respectfully request it goes to another thread.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 26, 2007)

exile said:


> Just out of curiosity, what would you advise someone who was in that situationwanted the real deal, money no object, but didn't have a connection to the situation `on the ground' there, so to speak, and only so much time available in the country. What would be the best move they could make? Since I don't do CMAs, this isn't something that bears on any decision I have to make, but it might be good for those who _are_ CMA devotees to know your views about how best to proceed...


 
I just thought of this, a good resource is a Websites like http://www.chinafrominside.com

This is a good way to start researching and checking out a teacher.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 26, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> First good luck with the move


 
Thanks, Xue Sheng. I just had a last minute VISA crisis that was thankfully resolved with my own  sweat and blood. THANK GOD I CAN SPEAK CHINESE.



Xue Sheng said:


> And now
> 
> Yup that about covers it, but one thing, the guy I talked to was old and there are a lot of older very good CMA people there and they are a dying breed, but there are some that are good that are younger. And they tend to be a little easier to find, Chen Yu comes to mind in Beijing. He is Chen style taiji and in his 40s. And he is not alone. There are also those that advertise that are good but you really have to do the research first and knowing Chinese (Mandarin, Cantonese, etc  depending on where you plan to train [but Mandarin will generally do for the younger <50 crowd) helps a great deal.


 
It sounds like the MA community there is better than the places where I've been, but I may have found a Bagua teacher (Or two) in Guilin.



Xue Sheng said:


> But back to the older CMA teachers; it is sad to say but they are getting very old and they are passing away and entire systems are dying with them, styles like Bagua for example appear to be getting hit hard by this.


 
It doesn't help that young Chinese are more interested in computer games than their own martial legacy..



Xue Sheng said:


> I want to also add that I recently came across a site offering to assist people find a teacher in the North and it also offered TCM classes with prominent teachers as well. It is allegedly a site done by an American living in China (I will not post the a name, it may cause legal issues for MT) but I will say the price they are talking about for 1 week of TCM lectures is about 10 times more than you would pay if you went to Beijing Hospitals training in coordination with the World Health Organization, so you have to be very careful.


 
The "schools" that cater to Westerners are the worst. Most Chinese students pay no more than 50&#20803; per month if they don't live in the school. And they can go to class every day. The live ins pay no more than 1500&#20803; per month (For absolute luxury). Foreigners easily pay that much per week. :S



Xue Sheng said:


> And to everyone else but MaartenSFS; Understand MaartenSFS is there and knows more than I just by location, but I want to add this stuff can vary based on location. Thing North and South can be VERY different and Things City and Countryside ARE very different


 
True. My experience is mostly based on the South (But also including big cities like Guangzhou). Where I live right now (Chongqing) is said to be the largest city in the world (Urban sprawl) and it is certainly the fastest "developing" city in the world, but it is a peasant city so I was able to find little of value here. Small cities that are more cultured tend to have something and I Chengdu and Kunming, because they are more internationally known, are vastly superior to this ******** in every way.

Anyways, see you ... LATER. Keep up the good work, Reverend. Tell them THE TRUTH!


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 27, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> Thanks, Xue Sheng. I just had a last minute VISA crisis that was thankfully resolved with my own sweat and blood. THANK GOD I CAN SPEAK CHINESE.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Yup the kids all want to play on computers now (hey...wait a minute.... I'M on a computer  )Beijing is mainly internal style, some great teachers, some good teachers, some not so good teachers. And even the great generally will charge a westerner more. And Beijing, from what little I know about Chengdu, is very different from Chengdu, if for no other reason it is were the Government is... and they are getting the Olympics now too&#8230; must be kind to rich foreigners you know  

And good luck with the move, hope it all goes well.


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## meth18au (Jun 27, 2007)

Nice thread- thoroughly enjoyed reading through this.  I know this might be a little off topic, but do you think a similar situation may exist in Thailand with Muay Thai?  I was interested in training there in the near future- but it gets you thinking!!!  How do you know you're not being taken for a ride?  Maybe you will eventually, but at a cost; both in time and money.  So easy to rip off a foreigner who has little knowledge of the country...


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 27, 2007)

meth18au said:


> Nice thread- thoroughly enjoyed reading through this. I know this might be a little off topic, but do you think a similar situation may exist in Thailand with Muay Thai? I was interested in training there in the near future- but it gets you thinking!!! How do you know you're not being taken for a ride? Maybe you will eventually, but at a cost; both in time and money. So easy to rip off a foreigner who has little knowledge of the country...


 
Sorry but I have no way of knowing.

As much as I like Muay Thai, I have never trained it nor have I been to Thailand. There use to be some guys in the IMA section of MT that where there and training in Thailand, maybe they can give you more info. Also I believe the Florida Sanshou page may be able to give you some info on training in Thailand too, I know some of the people there have trained in Thailand.


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## meth18au (Jun 28, 2007)

No worries...I'll have a look in those sections.  Thanks for pointing us in the right direction buddy.


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## MaartenSFS (Jul 4, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yup the kids all want to play on computers now (hey...wait a minute.... I'M on a computer  )Beijing is mainly internal style, some great teachers, some good teachers, some not so good teachers. And even the great generally will charge a westerner more. And Beijing, from what little I know about Chengdu, is very different from Chengdu, if for no other reason it is were the Government is... and they are getting the Olympics now too must be kind to rich foreigners you know
> 
> And good luck with the move, hope it all goes well.


 
Yes, but being on a computer and playing games is different. =P

That's absolutely true. I would also expect to find more Taekwondo, Wushu, and other imported MAs in Beijing than other cities.

We moved last Friday and Guilin is still a beautiful city. I bought a big scooter so that I am in control of my own private transportation and time schedule and secured a good job.  *Pats self on back*

Getting back to the thread... I met a Sanda (Non-sport version) instructor that teaches security guards Qindiquan in a supermarket, but he is an egotistical arsebandit like 99% of the others. He showed me his school and did nothing but brag about how good everything and everyone there is. Forget about having an open discussion of MAs with most Chinese teachers... They are always right.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 4, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> Yes, but being on a computer and playing games is different. =P
> 
> That's absolutely true. I would also expect to find more Taekwondo, Wushu, and other imported MAs in Beijing than other cities.
> 
> ...


 
Glad to hear it is going well. 

A scooter huh, you are a much braver man than I if you are going to drive around a city in China. If I ever live in Beijing I am walking and talking buses and taxis, I am not even considering a Bike there. I learned to drive in Boston Massachusetts but those Beijingren are just plain scary crazy drivers. Drive on the right... drive on the left... stop at stop lights.... run stop lights at the intersection of a 6 lane and 4 lane roads...whatever works as long as the PD is not there.

The only real CMA person I had any real discussion with in Beijing was the old Xingyi/Bagua/Buddhist and it was translated. He did not brag at all but he sure as hell was intimidating without even trying. But then I am beginning to understand that is pretty normal for a good Xingyi teacher (particullarly the old ones). However I have talked with a couple that have trained with various sifus in Beijing and they all pretty much say the same thing; Becoming a student and staying a student is much like getting married and staying married. 

The next time I go back I plan on finding out; it just depends on what style I decide to train there, but it will be an internal not Sanda. The little I have heard of Sanda in Beijing leads me to agree with your assessment of Sanda teachers on mainland. Which is in major contrast to my Sanda teacher here, he never brags about it nor does he talk to anyone he does not know. But then he may be a generation older than those you are running into and he is from WAAAAY up north China. He is more of the shutup and train variety and bragging would take time from training.


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## East Winds (Jul 5, 2007)

Xue Sheng,

Off topic, but I remember traffic in Beijing.:shrug: Crossing the road was one of the scariest things I have done. I also found out that at night drivers dont use their horns or lights - because it runs down the battery:erg:. My favorouite city was Nanjing. Now I'll let you guys get back on topic.

Very best wishes


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## MaartenSFS (Jul 5, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Glad to hear it is going well.
> 
> A scooter huh, you are a much braver man than I if you are going to drive around a city in China. If I ever live in Beijing I am walking and talking buses and taxis, I am not even considering a Bike there. I learned to drive in Boston Massachusetts but those Beijingren are just plain scary crazy drivers. Drive on the right... drive on the left... stop at stop lights.... run stop lights at the intersection of a 6 lane and 4 lane roads...whatever works as long as the PD is not there.
> 
> ...


 
Haha. In today's world I'll take what adventure I can. I recall clearly the first time I merged INTO traffick. I was on a side street and infront of me was the 8:00 - 9:00 rush hour. "HOLY ****... HERE I GO!" I thought as I pulled back the throttle and dived right in. Now I could never drive in the West again.  The best Western driver is the worst Eastern driver and vice versa. 45-50 km/hr on both sides of the road and through treacherous mountain passes is my idea of a good time. And my wife usually sits behind me and we go on countryside picnics. You can't do that in Beijing! Ja, the night drivers are dangerous and you can't hear scooters and bicycles either. Taxis are insane in every country.

I agree with you about the young teachers in China. I have met very few olde ones that could actually apply any MA, so they could be different.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 5, 2007)

East Winds said:


> Xue Sheng,
> 
> Off topic, but I remember traffic in Beijing.:shrug: Crossing the road was one of the scariest things I have done. I also found out that at night drivers dont use their horns or lights - because it runs down the battery:erg:. My favorouite city was Nanjing. Now I'll let you guys get back on topic.
> 
> Very best wishes


 
I will have to tell you about the ride I took in one of those home made 3 wheel motor cycle type things one time. All I will say here is I could have touched the grill of the on coming bus he cut off.



MaartenSFS said:


> Haha. In today's world I'll take what adventure I can. I recall clearly the first time I merged INTO traffick. I was on a side street and infront of me was the 8:00 - 9:00 rush hour. "HOLY ****... HERE I GO!" I thought as I pulled back the throttle and dived right in. Now I could never drive in the West again.  The best Western driver is the worst Eastern driver and vice versa. 45-50 km/hr on both sides of the road and through treacherous mountain passes is my idea of a good time. And my wife usually sits behind me and we go on countryside picnics. You can't do that in Beijing! Ja, the night drivers are dangerous and you can't hear scooters and bicycles either. Taxis are insane in every country.
> 
> I agree with you about the young teachers in China. I have met very few olde ones that could actually apply any MA, so they could be different.


 
My very first cab ride in Beijing the guy runs red lights at the intersection of a 6 lane and 4 lane roads at about noon... did not even phase my wife... but I about dove under the seat... but then again she learned to drive there.


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## MaartenSFS (Jul 6, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> I will have to tell you about the ride I took in one of those home made 3 wheel motor cycle type things one time. All I will say here is I could have touched the grill of the on coming bus he cut off.


 
MAJOR OFF TOPIC POST

I love Sanluanche (Three-wheeled vehicles)! They really add character to some places and every area has a different style. In Guangzhou I took one that was a hybrid of a converted tractor and a motorcycle.

Man: Where are you going?
Me: Too far [for THAT]..
Man: *Smiling* 5 kuai (A discount). Let's go.
Me: (What am I doing?...) *Gets on "vehicle thing"*

That thing was badarse and scared the **** out of me. If you know how the streets cross over one another in Guangzhou (Stacked, sometimes perhaps 9 streets high) you can appreciate how intense the ride was. He drove it so bloody fast and I held on with white knuckles. I also recall that I had to hold on to a metal bar behind me, which was originally designed to attach a plow! And I had two bags with me, as well. I almost lost them as he cut off other people and ascended and descended streets at dizzying heights.

Driving in third world countries can actually help your MA senses greatly. I have become much better at gauging distances and the required speed through driving myself. It's dangerous, yes, but also a thrill. I have driven petrol-powered bicycles fifty kilometres an hour in Chongqing (Mountain city) and made mid-"flight" repairs whilst traffick swirled around me and a hill loomed ahead (Brake failure =S) and been in traffick jams where I was the only human.

Me: *honk honk!*
Water buffalo: *Looks back* Mo0O!!!
Me: ****. You're going to make me late for work! *Accelerates and starts plowing through fifty of the beasts*

Needless to say, I think everyone should have a go at it. As an MAist, I feel the need to be in control of most aspects of my life. Never leave your life in others' hands - take the reins of your beast of burden and RIDE!

My new electric scooter cost 2500&#20803; (~$320).

- It rides 45km/hr (With a speed inhibitor that I haven't removed yet  ), 40 with two people. There are faster, but this is actually more than fast enough in the city.

- It is quite big and two bigger people can easily ride on it. My wife and I ride on it very comfortably. It has got an underseat compartment and a big boot. We can put extra clothes, raincoats, chargers, locks, and whatever else in the storage compartment under the seat and groceries and anything else that's not too bulky in the boot. I have taken a bloody huge suitcase with me by putting it between the seat and the steering collumn and hanging my legs over. =P

- It can ride 100km on one eight hour charge. A little less with two people.

- It has got thick tyres, shock absorbers, excellent braking system, and a plethora of other features. It can go up hills, weave through traffick easily, and parking spaces abound. It's even got an alarm. Sometimes rude Chinese will sit on your grand vehicle. Not on mine!

The bottom line is that as I'm riding I sometimes see other foreigners taking busses or walking, often in a dazed stupour. And then, finally, we come to see the difference between expats and tourists. Don't be a tourist, drive yourself. 

And the night races are fun. =P




Xue Sheng said:


> My very first cab ride in Beijing the guy runs red lights at the intersection of a 6 lane and 4 lane roads at about noon... did not even phase my wife... but I about dove under the seat... but then again she learned to drive there.


 
Taxis are like that in every major city in every country and most cities in third world countries, where they can be found. I have a mate that was in a taxi that was hit by another car and ran. The taxi then chased after that car through several red lights and was hit by at least two other cars in the process. My mate and his wife opened the door and jumped out before the taxi finally came to a stop - in a wall. That was in Chongqing, I believe.


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## Kacey (Jul 7, 2007)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, return to the original topic.

-Karen Cohn
-MT Senior Moderator-*


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