# Ultimate Concealment



## Lisa (Jun 18, 2008)

If you carry concealed on a regular basis, you need to dress for success.


 By Greg Rodriguez

Full Article


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## allenjp (Jun 18, 2008)

This would be a great article for me if I could get a ccw...*shakes head in disgust*


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## Grenadier (Jun 18, 2008)

Good article.  All too many folks spend 500+ on a nice pistol, yet fail to spend enough $$$ to properly conceal it.  A decent amount of money needs to be set aside for a good quality holster (not the ballistic nylon junk), a strong, stiff belt, and equally as important, the right clothes.  When the hot and humid July and August months come around my neck of the woods, I can still wear comfortable, yet formal enough, clothes, and still conceal a Glock 19 or 23 without any problems.  Typically, I'll use a pair of cargo shorts (lots of extra pockets to hold extra magazines), along with a tucked in t-shirt, and a lightweight, untucked, unbuttoned short sleeved dress shirt on top. When I use my Desantis Mini Slide holster, in combination with a strong, sturdy leather gun belt I bought almost a dozen years ago, the gun all but disappears under the clothes.  If the wind is blowing, I can tuck in the front part of the strong side, to prevent the shirt from opening up, while still taking normal steps.


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## kwaichang (Jun 18, 2008)

When I lived out west, it was easy to dress when carrying.  Shorts and an outty shirt were the norm.

Back east it's a bit more of a problem in warm weather but can still be done that way.

Formal dress I'd have on a jacket.


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## tellner (Jun 18, 2008)

It's a decent overview for the novice. The blindspots and omissions bother me. Here is a few of them in no particular order:

First of all, if you can't carry it conveniently or if you feel that you look like a dork because of the clothing and grooming choices that are forced on you will wear something else. If you can't carry on your normal activities with the gun you will leave it at home. In either case it will be sitting in the safe instead of at hand when you need it. If it's at home it's no darned good at all. Find a way to carry that you can live with.

Shoulder holsters in particular and crossdraw in general are out of fashion and don't deserve to be. The better designed shoulder holsters allow excellent retention and concealment and easy draws. I carried a Glock 21 in a semi-custom vertical draw shoulder holster for years. It never printed and never dropped the gun. 

There is a number of attractive vests and jackets from 5.11 Tactical and Roma Leather to Scott eVest (the fashionable gadget fiend's only stop for clothes) that allow excellent concealment of subcompact and compact pistols and revolvers. Some of them have areas between the outer shell and lining which are designed to hold holsters. Others have external breast pockets which zip or close with Velcro. I've used several and never had a problem with printing.

Small of the back carry is unpopular. I've heard all the standard stuff about how a fall could fracture your spine from a bad fall, but I've never heard of an actual case where it happened. My own experiments along those lines don't seem to have borne it out with standard holsters. Later I slapped together a couple for increased comfort and safety, and had no trouble at all taking moderate falls. If you can take ukemi you can fall safely with a S.O.B. holster. Besides, hip carry could result in ruptured bursa if you fall wrong. I smell excuse rather than a good reason.

The author didn't mean to ignore women's concerns, but he missed a couple important things. Women's hips are put together differently than men's. So are their shoulders and arms. A lot of women, especially those with wider hips or shorter waists, have real trouble with standard hip, behind the hip and IWB carry. My wife describes the draw from those as "scratching my armpit with the hammer". On the other hand they tend to have a much easier time with cross body draws of all sorts. And there is a fair number of purses which are not ugly and allow an easy draw and good retention. Guns and shooting accessories have been largely a man's world. Women will have to look a little harder to find things that are good fits.

Another thought: If you're going to carry, then a reload, a flashlight and a knife are good ideas. You might also want to consider something to stop bleeding. It doesn't have to be quicKlot. Besides, that's being replaced with specially impregnated bandages which are still hard for regular people to get. Compressed gauze works very well. Getting back to women's concerns, think about this. Most women between their tweens and their late forties carry around things that are sterile, easy to deploy, cheap and specially designed to soak up blood. Something to think about.


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## kwaichang (Jun 18, 2008)

There are a lot of carry products for women that utilize a common item: a purse.

As for the after thoughts; heck, you might as well carry a MASH kit.


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## Deaf Smith (Jun 18, 2008)

Lisa,

I use a Glock 27 and 642 Centennial for my carry guns. Kyndex IWB for the Glock, Courdura IWB for the Centennial. I wear t-shirts out and the Glock conceals well in the kidney position. Same for the Centennial in the appendix position.

I even use the same setup in IDPA, just swapping a Glock 26 for the 27 (9mm is mucho cheeper than .40) and a 640 .357 for the .38 (BUG match gun.)

This allows lots of practice and training with carry gear. And what is more, by wearing t-shirts, I don't look like I'm carrying a gun. Any gun.

And that is very important. One needs to look like they are not armed until they need to bring the weapon to bear... and then it's to late for the BG to adjust to the new development.

Don't look like you are armed guys. No photo vest, no extra shirt on, no coat on hot day. Look very normal yet well armed. And skip the karate logos or gun logos on anything you wear.

Deaf


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## jks9199 (Jun 18, 2008)

Something else to consider... 

The fanny pack holster, or the "concealment vest", and many other things might as well scream "GUY WITH A CONCEALED GUN."  Think about how you normally look; carrying a gun shouldn't look any different.  I normally wear jeans and polo/golf shirts or t-shirts.  I carry a gun in jeans, polo/golf shirts, etc.  

And, a nifty little trick I learned for when you are wearing a light coat, suit or sports coat or the like... put stuff in the front pockets.  Not a lot; your keys are enough.  It'll make it much easier to swing it out of the way if you need to draw.

Finally -- PRACTICE DRAWING from concealment, in various postures.  In reality, you're not likely to be standing square or bladed, waiting with your hands poised to move your shirt and pull your gun out in a real situation.  You're going to be hiding behind some cover or concealment, or moving quickly looking for the same...  You'll be sitting, or lying prone, crouched funny, or ducking...  You get the picture.  Something that works great in one position may be impossible in another.

Well... I fibbed.  I see the article did briefly discuss the fanny packs, etc.  I'm not a fan of women or men carrying in a bag or purse.  It's just too easy to get separated from the item with the gun in it -- which could put that gun in the wrong hands, whether that's a crook or just a curious kid.  My opinion is that, however you're going to carry -- keep it on your person, or secured completely.  Not left in a bag as a rule.  (I do leave my gun in my gym bag while I teach martial arts.  It's gotta go somewhere, and it's better under my observation that way than if I locked it in a car.)


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## MA-Caver (Jun 18, 2008)

allenjp said:


> This would be a great article for me if I could get a ccw...*shakes head in disgust*


Don't feel bad. You're not alone... I wouldn't be allowed CCW either.  Or even a CWP for that matter. :miffer:


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## ben (Jun 19, 2008)

I'd like to second what jks9199 said:


jks9199 said:


> PRACTICE DRAWING from concealment, in various postures.


and I would add "and in various situations" because whats happening and who is around you can also effect how you will need or be able to access your weapon.

Try taking notes on all the weird and awkward  positions and situations you end up in throughout a day or a week and then practice drawing from and in all of them. If you haven't done this before there's probably more of them than you realize.

I am also not a fan carrying in purses for a couple of reasons. How many women do you know who can find something in their purse in under 30 seconds? and if an attacker says "gimme your purse" what do you do? 

If you start reaching into your purse they'll know something is funny right away and if they have a gun are a knife already pointed at you you wont have time to draw. If they don't have a weapon then it may be hard to justify shooting them over a purse. You can't give them the purse and if you don't you may end up making the situation more dangerous than it needed to be. 

My preferred option would be to drop the purse (which I can't do if there's a gun in it) and get as much distance as I can. If they take the purse and leave then its over. If they don't then I know they want something more and it will be easier to shoot them if I need to (because I have more distance/time) and easier justify it later.

Something else to think about...

Does your carry method allow you to have a hand on your weapon without looking like you do? If it does then you just cut down your draw time and it allows you to be more prepared before a things get ugly while still being in a position to deescalate or leave the situation if the opportunity presents itself.

and no I don't carry a purse.

_"It's not a purse. It's European."_


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## KenpoTex (Jun 19, 2008)

I think many people's problems with concealment are due to just a few reasons.
As Grenadier mentioned, a problem with many people is that they fail to spend the money on a quality carry setup (good holster and belt combo).  They are also unwilling to make even slight compromises with regard to their style (untucked shirt vs. tucked or whatever).  And finally, they whine about how "uncomfortable" it is to carry a real gun.  
As a result, you always hear crap like "I can't carry anything bigger than a kel-tec or a j-frame."  Now I understand if you work in an environment that precludes casual dress or if you're operating in a "non-permissive environment," however, when you're not at work, there is no reason that 99.9% of CCW holders can not conceal a compact or service-size gun with just a _little_ effort.

I carry a Glock, spare mag, flashlight, and a couple of knives (at least) every day under nothing more than a t-shirt or hawaiian/camp/guayaberra shirt in the summer, or a sweat-shirt in the winter.  It's not that hard.

Just as an example, here's a series of pics I did for a similar discussion on another forum a while back.  I don't carry all of this stuff all the time but I carried it for a few days without any problems (in the interest of science ).

hmm...don't see anything













and, what the t-shirt is hiding:











From the belt-buckle going clockwise:
Snubnose revolver equipped with Barami hip-grips
CRKT Companion
Spyderco Endura in R. rear-pocket
Glock 19 in Milt Sparks Summer Special II IWB holster
Spare G19 mag
Cell-phone
Surefire E2D in L. rear-pocket
Spyderco Endura in L. hip-pocket
Goldsworthy Shadowdancer carried just left of the belt-buckle.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 19, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> I think many people's problems with concealment are due to just a few reasons.
> As Grenadier mentioned, a problem with many people is that they fail to spend the money on a quality carry setup (good holster and belt combo). They are also unwilling to make even slight compromises with regard to their style (untucked shirt vs. tucked or whatever). And finally, they whine about how "uncomfortable" it is to carry a real gun.
> As a result, you always hear crap like "I can't carry anything bigger than a kel-tec or a j-frame." Now I understand if you work in an environment that precludes casual dress or if you're operating in a "non-permissive environment," however, when you're not at work, there is no reason that 99.9% of CCW holders can not conceal a compact or service-size gun with just a _little_ effort.
> 
> ...


 
Nice pic's KenpoTex.  Simple, effective and to the point.


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## kwaichang (Jun 19, 2008)

ben said:


> I am also not a fan carrying in purses for a couple of reasons. How many women do you know who can find something in their purse in under 30 seconds? and if an attacker says "gimme your purse" what do you do?


 
The purse has a side access.  Reaching for that looks like your merely adjusting the purse as it sits on your shoulder.


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## kwaichang (Jun 19, 2008)

Another excellent option, IMO, is to simply carry a book.

http://www.allfreecrafts.com/homemade-gifts/book-safe.shtml

http://www.amazon.com/Book-Safe-by-spybase-com/dp/B0002SFELU


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## jks9199 (Jun 19, 2008)

One quick note on pictures (and habits...); this is not a shot at Kenpotex's very good show of what can be covered with a little effort, just a general observation:

It's relatively easy to conceal anything standing still, and when you control the point of view.  After all, stage magicians hide all sorts of stuff...  It's harder as you move, sit and do other things.  Take that into account... and think about what you do that may be a giveaway, too.


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## allenjp (Jun 19, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Don't feel bad. You're not alone... I wouldn't be allowed CCW either. Or even a CWP for that matter. :miffer:


 
CWP? wha??? not sure what that is... oh, wait, "Concealed Weapons Permit"? guess it's no that hard to figure out, actually it makes more sense than "Carry Concealed Weapons".

Kempotex:

Holy Moly! How the holy heck do you remember which one to go for first? or which one is where? Have you ever drawn your Glock only to discover that you were pointing a flashlight at someone? lol Good Grief!

you are an inspiration to self defenders everywhere


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## kwaichang (Jun 19, 2008)

allenjp said:


> you are an inspiration to self defenders everywhere


 

There was a guy, eons ago, who "hid weapons" for the FBI, etc.  The article showed him with 42 guns on his person.  Standing up, you'd never know he had even one gun.
IMO, the average person wouldn't be served by carrying all that stuff.  Indeed it would contribute to a finding of aggrivated assault, if one were invovled in anything at all simply by the amount of weaponry on the person.


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## allenjp (Jun 19, 2008)

Yeah, I was just kiddin' with him. I'm sure he doesn't carry all that stuff all the time...


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## KenpoTex (Jun 19, 2008)

As I said, I did it a while back *just to prove a point*.  I carried all that crap for a few days (in the car, out running errands, etc.) without a problem and even some of my friends/training-partners that know I carry couldn't detect anything different.

On a side note:
I'm another who is not a fan of "off body" carry (purse, dayplanner, briefcase, etc.) for some of the reasons already mentioned.  My biggest hangup with it is that it's harder to maintain control of the weapon as you might set the item down, or have it snatched.  At that point, you do not have your gun, the BG does.  Also, it's not a consistent platform as its position relative to your body changes.  For example, if you're knocked to the ground (or whatever), even if you maintain your grip on your purse or briefcase, it's not in the same place it was.  
There's also the fact that it's going to require both hands to draw the weapon unlike an "on body" mode of carry that will typically only require one hand.  This becomes pretty important when/if you're fighting an adversary at "bad breath range" and you have to fend with your off-hand.


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## Grenadier (Jun 19, 2008)

Heh.  Nobody can accuse Kenpotex of being unprepared.


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## Deaf Smith (Jun 19, 2008)

You will find that if you use a larger size pistol for your body size, and try to conceal it under a shirt, it will print. This is especially true of such weapons as the Beretta M9, or Glock 21. STI wide bodys are the same way. And it's mucho true if you bend over to pick something up, or the wind blows against that side of your body.

The trick to carrying under the shirt has a formula.

1) Thin IWB holster (no NOT carry it Mexican style as any altercation where there is a struggle may cause it to fall to the ground.) I find Kyndex holsters work very well for this.

2) Reasonably thin weapon. Single stack simi-autos are the best for this. Glocks 9s and .40s work but they are a bit thick. 1911s, Smith 3913s, Kahrs, Sig 239 (just, the slide is rather thick!), etc...

3) Light guns. I've found heavy ones kind of unbalance you on that side, plus if worn for several hours it gets kind of hard on the hips/kidneys! Ligher ones work much better overall.

4) Shorter barrels. Yes you can carry a 5 inch 1911, but try sitting down! Short 3-4 inch tubes are better for actually doing something other than standing still all day!

5) Use darker color t-shirts! Especially avoid see through ones. Get t-shirts that are kind of think and are not see through. Dark color guns show up with thin light color t-shirts.

6) Get rid of those 'love handles'! Yes they hamper things. And if you add weight lifting to get a larger chest size, you will have a dandy hollow area for a good size IWB holster to conceal under a t-shirt.

7) Happly, a regular mag pouch can be carried on the other size in front of the hip. Why? Cause the t-shirt conceals it and other people think it's a cell phone! It's harder to print and much easier to grab an emergency reload if needed.

And that is why I carry a Glock 27. Not real thin, but acceptable. Light, short, and a kyndex IWB holster.

Trick: I make sure I don't bend over to pick something up with my left hand (I'm right handed and of course my gun is on the right side.) I can use my right side as I lean to the right to pick an object up and thus it won't print. That's another reason to be flexable!

Deaf


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## allenjp (Jun 20, 2008)

Just curious, what is "Mexican style" and why do you call it that?


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## thardey (Jun 20, 2008)

allenjp said:


> Just curious, what is "Mexican style" and why do you call it that?



Stuffed in your pants, with no holster, often in the front "appendix carry." It's popular among gangs for some reason.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 20, 2008)

Because if they use it and then have to ditch the weapon there is no holster to tie them to the weapon.

There's a lesson there.

If you're gonna carry, for chrissakes use a holster. It does affect perception if for whatever reason you are under arms and find yourself searched.


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## Deaf Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

The term 'Mexican style' goes way back. Askins and Jordan wrote about it in the 40s and 50s. So did Skeeter Skelton.

Yes stuffed in the pants sans holster.

The faults include:

1) Unstable. The weapon shifts around a bit and is not only hard to grasp quicly with a proper firing grip but in any struggle it can and probabley will fall to the floor. 

This also leads to the users giving off 'tells' as they now and then sort of feel to make sure the gun is there and not about to fall out.

2. Unsafe. Due to no cover of the trigger guard such guns as Glocks can and have fired when they dropped down the pants.

3. Snag prone. Any high front sight or sharp rear sights or safeties can snag on any clothing as you try to draw.

4. Yes it's a good guy thing to have holster and mag pouch. This indicates the user is not real worried about being found with a gun, and thus more likely to have a CCW.

The gang bangers do try to ditch the weapon and any evidence. What is more they don't think of reactive 'quick draw' or presentation. Usually if they use the weapon it will be with deliberation (they draw first, and without warning.)

There may be times when you have no choice but to carry 'Mexican style' but if possible avoid it.

Deaf


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## allenjp (Jun 22, 2008)

thardey said:


> Stuffed in your pants, with no holster, often in the front "appendix carry." It's popular among gangs for some reason.


 
Interesting that some would call it "mexican" because it is popular among gangs. I am married to a Mexican woman (who happens to be more proficient with a pistol than I am), and have known many, many Mexican people who have nothing at all to do with any gangs. 

As for it being a term that goes back to the 40's and 50's, I am sure that the "N" word was in very wide use at that time too, but since it is offensive, most decent people don't use it anymore. I would suggest we use a different word for this too, because believe me, it is offensive. 

If you wanted to call it "cholo" style, that might be more appropriate because that word denotes a gangster. 

"Mexican" and "Cholo" are NOT the same thing...


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## Deaf Smith (Jun 22, 2008)

allenjp said:


> Interesting that some would call it "mexican" because it is popular among gangs. I am married to a Mexican woman (who happens to be more proficient with a pistol than I am), and have known many, many Mexican people who have nothing at all to do with any gangs.


 
The term 'Mexican carry' goes back way way before the '40s. Jordan and Skeeter WROTE about it in the 40s, not invent it. It goes back to the 1800s. I have no doubt it was popular in Mexico to carry a gun that way, and thus it was called 'Mexican carrry' for that reason. 

And 'gangs', drug or other wise, as preceived today, weren't even here in the '40s (well not THOSE gangs anyway, 'gangs' have been a feature of man since they first started tribes, ust as in the 1930s we had the bootleger gangs and bank robbing gangs.)

Deaf


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## Grenadier (Jun 22, 2008)

allenjp said:


> As for it being a term that goes back to the 40's and 50's, I am sure that the "N" word was in very wide use at that time too, but since it is offensive, most decent people don't use it anymore. I would suggest we use a different word for this too, because believe me, it is offensive.


 
There is nothing offensive about the term "Mexican Carry" or "Mexican Style Carry."  

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_2_51/ai_n8591504


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## thardey (Jun 24, 2008)

Grenadier said:


> There is nothing offensive about the term "Mexican Carry" or "Mexican Style Carry."
> 
> http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_2_51/ai_n8591504




Interesting article.


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## allenjp (Jun 24, 2008)

Grenadier said:


> There is nothing offensive about the term "Mexican Carry" or "Mexican Style Carry."
> 
> http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_2_51/ai_n8591504


 
The article helps to define where the term came from, if in fact the article is true, and in that aspect I stand corrected. However, just because that may be the reason the term originally came about, many newer folk today probably use it in a derrogatory way. I wrote a post asking why it was called that, and two out of three responses I received had to do with that style of cary being popular with gangs, and shady characters because it was easier to ditch the gun that way. Neither one of them referenced this origin of the term until they were made aware of it by others. 

Whether or not the term is offensive is a decision I think is best left to the people referred to by the term. Are you Mexican? If not, I suggest you ask someone who is, if they would be offended by that term. I am not, but I know many who would be very offended by it. And the reason is simple, it is a term used to describe an inferior means of carrying a weapon, or the "poor man's way" if you will. To refer to something viewed as inferior by a racially or ethnically specific name is going to offend some people, count on it.


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## thardey (Jun 24, 2008)

To clarify, I wasn't referring to the gangster bit of trivia as an answer to why it was called "Mexican carry" -- I was referring to popular culture to give an example of a style that you might be familiar with.

It was also a remark that there seems to be little redeeming features to carrying without a holster, and I couldn't understand why this was still used only by gangsters.

I got my answer - it was the same reason that the Mexicans did.


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## allenjp (Jun 24, 2008)

thardey said:


> To clarify, I wasn't referring to the gangster bit of trivia as an answer to why it was called "Mexican carry" -- I was referring to popular culture to give an example of a style that you might be familiar with.
> 
> It was also a remark that there seems to be little redeeming features to carrying without a holster, and I couldn't understand why this was still used only by gangsters.
> 
> I got my answer - it was the same reason that the Mexicans did.


 
This statement doesn't make sense to me. The article referenced said that people in Mexico started carrying that way because gun belts and holsters were illegal to posess or wear, and they could more readily hide their weapon that way if they needed to. 

How is that similar to why gangsters carry that way now?

To my knowledge concealed carry holsters did not exist at the time this term was coined. Now any gangster can perfectly legally buy a concealed carry holster. In my mind there is no similarity between the two groups, nor in their reasons for wanting to carry a weapon in this manner. 

This is why it is STILL interesting to me that when I asked why it was called "mexican style" you and another responded referencing how popular it is for gangsters to carry this way...


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## thardey (Jun 24, 2008)

Because if you need to ditch the weapon, there is no holster on you (often harder to ditch) to alert the authorities that you were carrying.

On many of the threads, "Mexican Carry" is also often called "gangster carry" - When I think of people carrying without holsters, most often, in our current culture, my mind goes to gangsters.

I didn't know the origin of the name "Mexican Carry," nor was I trying to explain it, since I didn't know it. 

Both the article, and today's usage, identify "Mexican Carry" with "Illegally carried." Since it was illegal for Mexicans to carry in the time that the article referenced, and since the widest use of pistols by people who aren't legally allowed to use or carry them today are gangsters, well, then there's going to be a connection.

Perhaps I should have said 



> Stuffed in your pants, with no holster, often in the front "appendix carry." It's *also called "gangster carry" because gangsters carry it that way for* some reason.





I just didn't figure this was going to be a racial issue.


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## allenjp (Jun 25, 2008)

Fair enough...

BTW had any nice trips to beautiful Cave Junction lately...?


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## thardey (Jun 25, 2008)

allenjp said:


> Fair enough...
> 
> BTW had any nice trips to beautiful Cave Junction lately...?



I'll be passing through on my way to the coast next week. I haven't been to the caves since I was 6, though. I need to do that again. You know the area?


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## allenjp (Jun 25, 2008)

thardey said:


> I'll be passing through on my way to the coast next week. I haven't been to the caves since I was 6, though. I need to do that again. You know the area?


 
Lived in Grants Pass and Medford for about two years back in 2000 & 2001. Worked at the Lithia Dodge dealer in Grants Pass (or Grunts' Puss as we used to affectionately call it). 

The coast is nice, but I just couldn't hack the rest of it. I'm a Socal boy at heart. I still have two sets of aunts & uncles, and one set of grandparents up there.

I only remember that Cave Junction was about the most backwoods hick places that I've ever been to...but the caves are cool.


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