# Yudansha Fighting System/Association??



## K831 (Mar 14, 2012)

Hey folks,

I have a brother who moved and is looking into training again. There is a Yudansha Fighting Association club nearby, and I told him I would help him look into it.

So, who is familiar with this association?

The founder/head is Mike Veros.

Bio page says:

Yudansha Fighting System was founded by Sensei Mike Veros in 1988. Mike is a holder of 7th degree black belt under the Danzan Ryu Jujitsu Association, a 2nd degree black belt in Judo, and is also a certified Arnis Instructor.

However the art is purportedly based on Traditional Jui Jitsu, Judo and Muay Thai. 

Here is a link to the main page:

http://www.yudanshafight.org/training.html 

Here is a link to the facebook page;

http://www.facebook.com/yudanshafight?sk=info

And lastly, this page shows all the requirements for each belt rank in the system;

http://www.yudanshafight.org/testing.html

They seem to be pretty transparent in terms of the instructor and his background, and their requirements for belts and training methodology, however, I dont know anything about the man, nor do I know much about Danzan Ryu Jujitsu or Judo. 

Also, I have seen that when new systems or associations spring up and attempt to mix several arts, the students sometimes end up with a watered down version of each. Im ok if its streamlined and the technique is still good, however, if its watered down and taught by someone who lacks complete understanding of the techniques... well, thats no bueno. 

Any knowledge out there on this association, their reputation, and the general quality of the system and instruction? 
And for those of you who are proficient with Judo/Juijitsu how do their requirements look? 

For anyone reading this who is associated with the group, I don't intend this to be accusatory. I recognize they could be awesome, or garbage. I just don't know. 

Thanks.


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## K831 (Mar 15, 2012)

No one knows anything about these guys eh? Well, if any JJJ or Judo guys could look over the requirements, I'd appreciate that too... I'm curious how complete the system is at least on the grappling side!


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## Chris Parker (Mar 16, 2012)

Based on the website alone I'd give them a wide berth. The site is full of misunderstanding, empty rhetoric, cliche's, and a complete lack of any real knowledge or understanding of anything they are talking about.


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## lklawson (Mar 16, 2012)

One of my Judo instructors was ranked by Ancho.  If you'd like, I'll ask him Monday night if he recognizes Mike Veros.

That said, a quick google search fails to come up with any hits for Mike Veros in association with Danzan Ryu outside of his own website.  For a 7th Dan, this seems more than a bit odd.  7th Dan ranks in Danzan aren't so common that they go undocumented most of the time so this raises a red flag.

As for the Judo part, well, a 2nd Dan is Judo, if it's a real rank, isn't anything to sneeze at.  Judo is one of the few arts that seems to have done a decent job at imparting real skill and political ranks don't seem to really start becoming a problem for most of the different Judo orgs until somewhere around 3-5th Dans.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## K831 (Mar 16, 2012)

I appreciate both of your comments. 

Kirk, yes, please ask. One of their students apparently does decently in local grappling competitions, so there is a little Judo/JJ knowledge coming from somewhere. I had the same thought though... a 7th in Danzan and a 2nd in Judo? I ought to be able to find record of that. I'll keep poking around, but I appreciate the help.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 16, 2012)

I used to train with some of Veros's students back in the day (Brian Johnson, Mark Connally and Desmond Wong, when they were living and teaching in Ohio).  I only met Veros once, at a seminar.

I'd say the training was decent, but not spectacular.  There was a reasonably even blend of judo-style throws (the instructors were probably judo black-belt level), ground-fighting (maybe BJJ blue belt level), and self-defense moves using standing wrist locks and the like.  (The level of instruction for the wrist locks, etc was about the same as I had been receiving at the Dayton Bujinkan Dojo.  Caveat - the level of instruction for the Bujinkan in the US was not that advanced back then.)  We did regular light-contact sparring and randori.  They had a Muay Thai instructor teaching at the facilities, but Brian and Mark were not conversant in Muay Thai - their striking seemed to come more from a point karate base.

The training environment was pretty friendly and open-minded.

Brian and Mark competed in the USJJA and were on Ernie Boggs's US sports jujitsu team one year.

The one time I met Veros, he seemed like a pretty strong grappler.  I don't know who his Danzan Ryu instructor was or if his DZR rank is legit.  The curriculum does seem to track pretty closely with what I've read of DZR  and videos I've seen of early DZR training.  To his credit, Veros's website does provide a comparison chart so you can see where his testing requirements diverge from the DZR original.  

Depending on what your brother is looking for and what other schools are available in the area, it might be worth checking out.


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## K831 (Mar 16, 2012)

Tony, very helpful, thank you. 

My brother has about a year of BJJ and a few months of Judo. He is a decent boxer. He is looking for a place to get some sparring, and improve his grappling, both ground game and clinch/throwing etc.

Sounds like, while it may not be the premier school, they have enough to offer that it's worth his checking out. One of the names you mentioned is apparently the head instructor where he lives, so your info is particularly timely.


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## lklawson (Mar 20, 2012)

OK, here's what I found out by talking to people who were in Danzan and trained during that time.  Veros did, indeed, train in Danzan, at least some of it was under Ancho.  He trained for between *2* and *3* years before opening his own school and beginning his own organization which, apparently became the Yudansha Fighting Association.  During that time he also trained in Judo.  By eye-witness accounts, men who actually randoried with the gentleman in question, he was a decent-to-good Judo player for his experience level.

Mr. Veros, apparently, waited until Ancho Sensei left the Dayton area (appointing a series of hand-picked instructors to continue teaching in his school - Veros was not among them) and then Mr. Veros opened a competing Dojo teaching Danzan (with this 3 years or less experience).  However, apparently Mr. Veros is extremely adept at marketing and business and he choose a more favorable time and day to teach and deliberately marketed to children.  Again, these are, we understand now, very smart business moves.

This series of events alienated him from much of the local Dayton area Danzan practitioners, particularly those who Ancho Sensei left "in charge."  They saw it as a dirty backstab and a usurpation of authority not rightfully his.  In other words, they were pretty pissed.

That aside, his 7th Dan rank was never awarded by either Ancho or "Sig" (the lineage he came from) and is, from all indications, self-appointed when he created his "style" of Yudansha Fighting Association.

While some of his students may or may not be talented, I would, personally, stay far, far away from Mr. Veros.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Chris Parker (Mar 21, 2012)

Based on the website, I really can't say I'm surprised by that, Kirk...


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## K831 (Mar 21, 2012)

Kirk,

Thanks for following up. Disappointing information, but good to know none-the-less! 

7th in 3 years.... impressive!


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## lklawson (Mar 22, 2012)

I have no idea of when he awarded himself 7th, but I rather doubt it was immediate upon opening his dojo.  My understanding is that he opened the dojo, then formed his organization, and that morphed into the Yudansha Fighting Association.  Somewhere in that process he, from what I can tell, awarded himself 7th Dan as is "traditional" for people who start their own style.  Regardless of where/when he "acquired" a 7th Dan I can say one thing for certain: It was not awarded to him by either Ancho Sensei or by Kufferath Sensei.

But, yeah, opening your own school after 3 (or less) years of training under Ancho Sensei, in direct competition with Ancho's own school and his hand-picked instructors, is kinda ballsy.

Again, people who have actually randoried with him thought that he had some level of talent, at least for his actual training level, for whatever that is worth.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## DGarich (Aug 22, 2016)

I just came across this while searching for Mike Veros. If any of you are still on here, you have grossly misrepresented Mike Veros. I haven't talked to him in over twenty years but the information that is on here is incorrect or incomplete at best.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 22, 2016)

DGarich said:


> I just came across this while searching for Mike Veros. If any of you are still on here, you have grossly misrepresented Mike Veros. I haven't talked to him in over twenty years but the information that is on here is incorrect or incomplete at best.


What is the correct information regarding him?


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## DGarich (Aug 22, 2016)

I just signed up, I noticed it said white belt, I'm not a white belt but I didn't see where you change that. Probably appropriate though given my ideas about rank. I have been studying for over 30 years


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## DGarich (Aug 23, 2016)

Well first, if you google ancho one of the first pictures you see is of him leaving wright Patterson in I think around 1987. The person standing to his right (left in the picture) is Mike. I studied with him and Michael and Brian Johnson. Probably brown belts in that picture and Mark, Desmond, and many others. I think the other person iklawson was referring to was most likely the sensei standing on the other side of professor ancho. Mike was an officer in the air force so he moved a lot but he was a great instructor that really opened my eyes. He taught at Wright Patt Air Force base when I met him and he had a school in Beavercreek, Ohio. He may have been a great businessman but as a young high school kid I never paid more than 38 dollars per month and many times nothing while some of the people who were supposedly pissed were charging 150. He taught military mostly but also kids and it was a great atmosphere. I never heard him say one bad thing about another martial artist. I heard most of the story from one of the students of the so called hand picked students of ancho who challenged me when he found out I was a student of Veros.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 23, 2016)

DGarich said:


> I just signed up, I noticed it said white belt, I'm not a white belt but I didn't see where you change that. Probably appropriate though given my ideas about rank. I have been studying for over 30 years


The rank has nothing to do with actual rank, it's just a fun way for the site to say how many messages people have posted.


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## DGarich (Aug 23, 2016)

As for his skill I would have to say he was at that time a fourth degree black belt in danzan ryu and he was the best I had ever seen. Which maybe wasn't saying much at that time but I had already been studying martial arts for 8 years and he was a very humble and capable teacher that was more interested in helping people learn than rank and praise and fame. At that time he taught many of the military police and local law enforcement as well. He went on to teach military personnel and many others In many states and countries including military personnel from Air Force and Marines and others. He was, at least when I knew him more interested in helping people learn the arts than he was interested in recognition. I remember him even giving me the keys to the dojo when I was around 17 or 18 so I could come in on Sunday and practice. I studied every day for just over a dollar a day


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## DGarich (Aug 23, 2016)

The disparaging words I read on here about him from some people. Looked up your videos. He was at least that good when I knew him twenty years ago


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## DGarich (Aug 23, 2016)

And by the way at least half of the people in anchos picture I think would agree with me. And also professed ancho was teaching at Wright Patterson Air Force base and when he left Mike Veros was still teaching there so I dispute the claim that there were hand picked replacements. It's easy to say that more than ten years after the man died, but that doesn't make it true.


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## DGarich (Aug 23, 2016)

After my first post I had three emails real fast before I could respond. Nothing to add? I'm sure you are frantically looking for Google info but keep in mind they didn't have google in the 80s so keep in mind most of the best martial artists go unnoticed unless their students are media savvy or promoting themselves.


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## DGarich (Aug 23, 2016)

I would also like to add that the person with the most Google hits or the person that charges the most, or the person with the most knock outs or wins is rarely the best martial artist, fighter, or teacher. Learn what you can from the person you're with and move on to learn some more when they have nothing more to teach you.


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## DGarich (Aug 23, 2016)

Mike Veros moved on because he was in the military. I wish he was still here to teach me. Some of my he other people mentioned are here because their family is here and their business is here. That doesn't make them better martial artists.


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## DGarich (Aug 23, 2016)

Sorry this is on my phone. Please forgive the typos


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## Chris Parker (Aug 23, 2016)

Okay, settle down. Honestly, you're not helping yourself, or Mr Veros by any of this.



DGarich said:


> I just came across this while searching for Mike Veros. If any of you are still on here, you have grossly misrepresented Mike Veros. I haven't talked to him in over twenty years but the information that is on here is incorrect or incomplete at best.



Then you need to be able to counter and give what you feel is correct information. For the record, you have not done that.



DGarich said:


> I just signed up, I noticed it said white belt, I'm not a white belt but I didn't see where you change that. Probably appropriate though given my ideas about rank. I have been studying for over 30 years



Yeah… as said, the forum rank is nothing to do with any rank held in the real world, or any particular system… for a couple of reasons. One is that it's just a fun, martial art-like way of saying who is the more experienced and senior members of the forum (based on post number), another is that we are not arbitrators of people's external ranks… I could come along and claim to be a 28th Dan… how does the site recognise that, or verify it? But, more importantly, your rank outside of here is largely besides the point… your experience can help inform your opinions and views, but that's slightly unrelated… and the need to have an ego fulfilled by having strangers here acknowledge a rank you may or may not hold in an art we don't train in is not a good sign.



DGarich said:


> Well first, if you google ancho one of the first pictures you see is of him leaving wright Patterson in I think around 1987. The person standing to his right (left in the picture) is Mike.



You might be best off actually linking the picture… I, for one, have no idea which one you're talking about. I will say that the date of 1987 doesn't mean much in making your case, though… as it was one year later that Mike Veros started the "Yudansha Fighting System"… which matches with the history that both Tony and Kirk found.



DGarich said:


> I studied with him and Michael and Brian Johnson. Probably brown belts in that picture and Mark, Desmond, and many others. I think the other person iklawson was referring to was most likely the sensei standing on the other side of professor ancho. Mike was an officer in the air force so he moved a lot but he was a great instructor that really opened my eyes. He taught at Wright Patt Air Force base when I met him and he had a school in Beavercreek, Ohio. He may have been a great businessman but as a young high school kid I never paid more than 38 dollars per month and many times nothing while some of the people who were supposedly pissed were charging 150. He taught military mostly but also kids and it was a great atmosphere. I never heard him say one bad thing about another martial artist. I heard most of the story from one of the students of the so called hand picked students of ancho who challenged me when he found out I was a student of Veros.



So, as a teenager, over 20 years ago, you trained under him for a short time, and he didn't charge you much? And this means that his highly doubtable high Danzan Ryu ranking is perfectly legitimate because…? The myriad issues on the old website (pity it's no longer up) are not issues, because you, as a 17 year old, enjoyed the class?



DGarich said:


> As for his skill I would have to say he was at that time a fourth degree black belt in danzan ryu and he was the best I had ever seen. Which maybe wasn't saying much at that time but I had already been studying martial arts for 8 years and he was a very humble and capable teacher that was more interested in helping people learn than rank and praise and fame. At that time he taught many of the military police and local law enforcement as well. He went on to teach military personnel and many others In many states and countries including military personnel from Air Force and Marines and others. He was, at least when I knew him more interested in helping people learn the arts than he was interested in recognition. I remember him even giving me the keys to the dojo when I was around 17 or 18 so I could come in on Sunday and practice. I studied every day for just over a dollar a day



Yeah, all this tells us is that you enjoyed him as a teacher, and found value. Honestly, that's great. However… that does nothing to dissuade any of the issues we found, with Mike's claimed rankings, time in study in Danzan Ryu, or the comments of the other people who knew him. Frankly, whether he gave you the keys, or charged you $500 an hour means nothing in regards to what we are talking about.



DGarich said:


> The disparaging words I read on here about him from some people. Looked up your videos. He was at least that good when I knew him twenty years ago



In your estimation.



DGarich said:


> And by the way at least half of the people in anchos picture I think would agree with me. And also professed ancho was teaching at Wright Patterson Air Force base and when he left Mike Veros was still teaching there so I dispute the claim that there were hand picked replacements. It's easy to say that more than ten years after the man died, but that doesn't make it true.



Fellow students would agree that he was "the best they had ever seen"? Really? They may have liked the guy (or not), but one feels that, if they all felt that way, they would have followed him when he started his new thing, yeah? 



DGarich said:


> After my first post I had three emails real fast before I could respond. Nothing to add? I'm sure you are frantically looking for Google info but keep in mind they didn't have google in the 80s so keep in mind most of the best martial artists go unnoticed unless their students are media savvy or promoting themselves.



Dude. It's a world-wide site… people are asleep, people are at work, and you've resurrected a thread from 4 years ago. Settle.



DGarich said:


> I would also like to add that the person with the most Google hits or the person that charges the most, or the person with the most knock outs or wins is rarely the best martial artist, fighter, or teacher. Learn what you can from the person you're with and move on to learn some more when they have nothing more to teach you.



I have little to no idea what you think you're saying here… the guy with the best record and reputation isn't the best, because you all said mean things about the guy I liked?

Really?



DGarich said:


> Mike Veros moved on because he was in the military. I wish he was still here to teach me. Some of my he other people mentioned are here because their family is here and their business is here. That doesn't make them better martial artists.



Again, this means absolutely nothing.

Look, I get that you want to defend someone you obviously got something of value from… but you haven't really done anything of the kind. You've said that, over 20 years ago, as a teenager, you trained with Mike for a short time (until he moved due to being in the military), and you think, based on your experience then, that he was good. Okay. But none of that really means anything with regard to the issues brought up.


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## lklawson (Aug 23, 2016)

DGarich said:


> After my first post I had three emails real fast before I could respond. Nothing to add? I'm sure you are frantically looking for Google info but keep in mind they didn't have google in the 80s so keep in mind most of the best martial artists go unnoticed unless their students are media savvy or promoting themselves.


Easy there, friend.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 23, 2016)

DGarich said:


> I noticed it said white belt, I'm not a white belt but I didn't see where you change that



It's just a forum thing reflecting the number of posts you've made. It will automatically update as you make more posts.



DGarich said:


> I have been studying for over 30 years



Why not stop by the "Meet and Greet" section of the forum and make a post introducing yourself and telling us about your 30 years of training?



DGarich said:


> If any of you are still on here, you have grossly misrepresented Mike Veros.


I assume you are reacting to Kirk's recounting of what he was told by his Danzan Ryu friends and not my description of my training time in the Yudansha system. If so, you haven't given much to directly dispute that story. No one has denigrated Mr. Varos's ability as a martial artist or instructor. The story had more to do with Mike's time spent training under Ancho, his rank in Danzan Ryu, and the politics of the split.


Not having been involved at the time of the split, I have no idea regarding the truth of how long Mike Varos trained in Danzan Ryu or what rank he held at the time. I do know it's not uncommon for new styles to be born in such a way, when a talented student breaks out on his own with only a limited amount of training. The quality of the resulting system probably has to do a lot with the degree to which the founder and his students continue to grow and learn over the years.

One new data point I will add to the discussion. One of my old Yudansha training partners, Jim "J.R." Rosenthal, got his BJJ black belt around the same time I did. Despite being a BJJ black belt and having his own school, J.R. still brings his old Yudansha instructors (Brian and Mark) in for occasional seminars. That would indicate that he finds value in what they are teaching. (I haven't seen Brian or Mark in well over a decade, so I don't personally know what their current skill level is like. I haven't seen Mike Varos in even longer, so I wouldn't want to evaluate his current skill level without seeing him either.)


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## lklawson (Aug 23, 2016)

DGarich said:


> And by the way at least half of the people in anchos picture I think would agree with me.


You can't speak for other people.  At the very best this is an "Appeal to Authority."  At worst, you're putting words in their mouths which they never spoke.



> And also professed ancho was teaching at Wright Patterson Air Force base and when he left Mike Veros was still teaching there so I dispute the claim that there were hand picked replacements. It's easy to say that more than ten years after the man died, but that doesn't make it true.


Hell, what do I know.  I'm only quoting an eye witness who is ranked to Mastery in the system.  So what would he know?  Hmmm... Take your word or the word of an eye witness to the events who is still in the area, still teaching Danzan, and ranked to 6th Dan within Danzan...  Lemme think about this for a minute...  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Aug 23, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> Dude. It's a world-wide site… people are asleep, people are at work, and you've resurrected a thread from 4 years ago. Settle.


Well, he apparently posted at around 1:30 AM local time to me (Dayton, Ohio, USA) so, frankly, I was asleep.  Last night I was at Judo teaching one my brown belts how to create a sort of generic lesson plan for class to "plug in" a technique for instruction to students.  It was an "administrative" session.  Then a few of us went and visited Bob Spraley's grave-site to pay our respects.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 23, 2016)

DGarich said:


> After my first post I had three emails real fast before I could respond. Nothing to add? I'm sure you are frantically looking for Google info but keep in mind they didn't have google in the 80s so keep in mind most of the best martial artists go unnoticed unless their students are media savvy or promoting themselves.



If this was directed at me, yes I have nothing to add. No I was not looking anything up, as I had never said anything bad about Mike Veros, and beyond this thread I have no clue who he is.

If it was directed at one of the three people who have since responded, do you just assume they are on this site 24/7, to respond to everything within an hour?


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 23, 2016)

DGarich said:


> Well first, if you google ancho one of the first pictures you see is of him leaving wright Patterson in I think around 1987. The person standing to his right (left in the picture) is Mike. I studied with him and Michael and Brian Johnson. Probably brown belts in that picture and Mark, Desmond, and many others. I think the other person iklawson was referring to was most likely the sensei standing on the other side of professor ancho. Mike was an officer in the air force so he moved a lot but he was a great instructor that really opened my eyes. He taught at Wright Patt Air Force base when I met him and he had a school in Beavercreek, Ohio. He may have been a great businessman but as a young high school kid I never paid more than 38 dollars per month and many times nothing while some of the people who were supposedly pissed were charging 150. He taught military mostly but also kids and it was a great atmosphere. I never heard him say one bad thing about another martial artist. I heard most of the story from one of the students of the so called hand picked students of ancho who challenged me when he found out I was a student of Veros.


When exactly did you train with Mike? You mention him having his own school, so I'm guessing it was at some point after he split from Danzan Ryu?


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2016)

lklawson said:


> Well, he apparently posted at around 1:30 AM local time to me (Dayton, Ohio, USA) so, frankly, I was asleep.  Last night I was at Judo teaching one my brown belts how to create a sort of generic lesson plan for class to "plug in" a technique for instruction to students.  It was an "administrative" session.  Then a few of us went and visited Bob Spraley's grave-site to pay our respects.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



0535h my time, definitely asleep but as I've never heard of any of the people or the style mentioned it wouldn't have mattered if I were up


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## Dfuzz (Dec 26, 2017)

I knew Sensei Mike Veros well. I trained at his dojo, called "Yudansha" from 1992 to 1995. At the time, he called it Danzan-Ryu jujitsu. I've not talked to him or heard from him since then when he moved to Colarado with the Air Force, and I went to college. He formed a "Yudansha" association probably in 1995, and my member number is in the single digits. I don't have a lot to compare to, as my martial arts career topped out a few years later after doing judo in college, but I can put a little detail on this topic. The photo metioned earler with Ancho Sensei is here: Redirect Notice. Sensei Mike is immediately to the left (as you look at the photo). Senseis Brian, Michael, and Desmond who worked under Mike are also in the photo. An alternate in UFC3 trained with us for learning how to grapple. I forgot his name. Mike was an excellent grappler and teacher. I don't actually think he was a great businessman or marketer. When I was there, we started going to judo and jujitsu tournaments, and we won about as often as we lost. As far as fluffing his accomplishments or skills, that would be very out of character of what I knew of him.


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## lklawson (Jan 4, 2018)

Dfuzz said:


> I knew Sensei Mike Veros well. I trained at his dojo, called "Yudansha" from 1992 to 1995. At the time, he called it Danzan-Ryu jujitsu. I've not talked to him or heard from him since then when he moved to Colarado with the Air Force, and I went to college. He formed a "Yudansha" association probably in 1995, and my member number is in the single digits. I don't have a lot to compare to, as my martial arts career topped out a few years later after doing judo in college, but I can put a little detail on this topic. The photo metioned earler with Ancho Sensei is here: Redirect Notice. Sensei Mike is immediately to the left (as you look at the photo). Senseis Brian, Michael, and Desmond who worked under Mike are also in the photo. An alternate in UFC3 trained with us for learning how to grapple. I forgot his name. Mike was an excellent grappler and teacher. I don't actually think he was a great businessman or marketer. When I was there, we started going to judo and jujitsu tournaments, and we won about as often as we lost. As far as fluffing his accomplishments or skills, that would be very out of character of what I knew of him.









Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## DGarich (Jul 6, 2021)

lklawson said:


> OK, here's what I found out by talking to people who were in Danzan and trained during that time.  Veros did, indeed, train in Danzan, at least some of it was under Ancho.  He trained for between *2* and *3* years before opening his own school and beginning his own organization which, apparently became the Yudansha Fighting Association.  During that time he also trained in Judo.  By eye-witness accounts, men who actually randoried with the gentleman in question, he was a decent-to-good Judo player for his experience level.
> 
> Mr. Veros, apparently, waited until Ancho Sensei left the Dayton area (appointing a series of hand-picked instructors to continue teaching in his school - Veros was not among them) and then Mr. Veros opened a competing Dojo teaching Danzan (with this 3 years or less experience).  However, apparently Mr. Veros is extremely adept at marketing and business and he choose a more favorable time and day to teach and deliberately marketed to children.  Again, these are, we understand now, very smart business moves.
> 
> ...


I would like to put a reply to this thread because this makes it seem like he is some kind of marketing person that is trying to scam people. He was there at Wright Patterson Air Force Base because he was stationed there in the Air Force he was transferred out of the area because the Air Force transferred him . this has nothing to do with martial arts marketing. He trained military personnel in various places during his career. Many of his students started their own school and used his name on Their website. many of these have nothing to do with Mike Veros. The last I heard from him he was teaching Marines hand to hand combat in Okinawa but this was secondhand knowledge from a student that was in the class when I learned from him. Just because some of his students want to make a name for themselves I don’t think that it’s fair to use his name to disparage his learning under Professor Ancho. I learned from him in the early 90s. I am aware that a student that studied with Mike Veros under Ancho claims to be his only student authorized to teach. I learned this from one of TAMAs students Who challenged me to a fight because his teacher had been teaching this nonsense. I think that kind of discussion is just posturing to make your school look better than somebody else’s and has nothing actually to do with real martial arts experience


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## DGarich (Jul 6, 2021)

DGarich said:


> I would like to put a reply to this thread because this makes it seem like he is some kind of marketing person that is trying to scam people. He was there at Wright Patterson Air Force Base because he was stationed there in the Air Force he was transferred out of the area because the Air Force transferred him . this has nothing to do with martial arts marketing. He trained military personnel in various places during his career. Many of his students started their own school and used his name on Their website. many of these have nothing to do with Mike Veros. The last I heard from him he was teaching Marines hand to hand combat in Okinawa but this was secondhand knowledge from a student that was in the class when I learned from him. Just because some of his students want to make a name for themselves I don’t think that it’s fair to use his name to disparage his learning under Professor Ancho. I learned from him in the early 90s. I am aware that a student that studied with Mike Veros under Ancho claims to be his only student authorized to teach. I learned this from one of TAMAs students Who challenged me to a fight because his teacher had been teaching this nonsense. I think that kind of discussion is just posturing to make your school look better than somebody else’s and has nothing actually to do with real martial arts experience


This idea that he waited till he left the area is ridiculous he left the area and then there was a void and two schools emerged Mike Vera‘s continued to teach at Wright Patterson Air Force Base and the person that this gentleman is talking about started his own school and was very successful I think the very successful businessman that was scamming people could not possibly describe Mike Veros


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## DGarich (Jul 6, 2021)

DGarich said:


> This idea that he waited till he left the area is ridiculous he left the area and then there was a void and two schools emerged Mike Vera‘s continued to teach at Wright Patterson Air Force Base and the person that this gentleman is talking about started his own school and was very successful I think the very successful businessman that was scamming people could not possibly describe Mike Veros


As Professor ancho did Mike Veros continued to serve the military and train military personnel as well as law enforcement. He continued to teach people with very little pay and in his spare time after his responsibilities in the US military. And he never scammed anybody because he was happy to teach people for free if they cannot afford it


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## DGarich (Jul 6, 2021)

The reason this makes me so angry is because this is the exact same kind of rhetoric that the TAMA school was touting when Mike Vera’s was teaching in Beavercreek. This was never mentioned once to me under Mike Veros  in Beaver Creek. Mike Veros did not talk **** about other schools. That should be the first clue. I went to Beaver Creek high school with one of the students that studied at TAMA, And he challenged me to a fight as I said earlier and when I went to his house to discuss it with him he explained all of this to me. This is all just high school BS. I never studied at the TAMA school so I have no idea what they’re teaching other than what this person told me. But I can tell you that this student that challenged me was a black belt that had been there for years by his account. I had studied under Mike Veros for about a year and just earned a brown belt. He was not very good . Let’s just leave it at that, but what I did learn from him is that there was some kind of ridiculous rivalry that apparently Mike Veros never talked about but the instructor at TAMA never quit talking about. But I guess the real question is…is that professor Ancho was famous for teaching at Wright Patterson Air Force Base…Why was it Mike Veros that continued to teach at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base after he left If the guy from Tama was the chosen one? Mike Veros taught actual warriors who actually fought in the US military. He didn’t concern himself with high school kids who thought that Tama was a better school. Even though everybody at the high school knew the TAMA Guys were all talk while
the military police at Wright Patt were learning from Mike Veros. I wasn’t in the military I was a high school student learning from Mike , Michael, Brian, Desmond, Pete, And many other great black and brown belts that started there But I can tell you that none of those TAMA students That I sparred with were good enough to make me switch schools Even though they out ranked me by far


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## DGarich (Jul 6, 2021)

DGarich said:


> The reason this makes me so angry is because this is the exact same kind of rhetoric that the TAMA school was touting when Mike Vera’s was teaching in Beavercreek. This was never mentioned once to me under Mike Veros  in Beaver Creek. Mike Veros did not talk **** about other schools. That should be the first clue. I went to Beaver Creek high school with one of the students that studied at TAMA, And he challenged me to a fight as I said earlier and when I went to his house to discuss it with him he explained all of this to me. This is all just high school BS. I never studied at the TAMA school so I have no idea what they’re teaching other than what this person told me. But I can tell you that this student that challenged me was a black belt that had been there for years by his account. I had studied under Mike Veros for about a year and just earned a brown belt. He was not very good . Let’s just leave it at that, but what I did learn from him is that there was some kind of ridiculous rivalry that apparently Mike Veros never talked about but the instructor at TAMA never quit talking about. But I guess the real question is…is that professor Ancho was famous for teaching at Wright Patterson Air Force Base…Why was it Mike Veros that continued to teach at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base after he left If the guy from Tama was the chosen one? Mike Veros taught actual warriors who actually fought in the US military. He didn’t concern himself with high school kids who thought that Tama was a better school. Even though everybody at the high school knew the TAMA Guys were all talk while
> the military police at Wright Patt were learning from Mike Veros. I wasn’t in the military I was a high school student learning from Mike , Michael, Brian, Desmond, Pete, And many other great black and brown belts that started there But I can tell you that none of those TAMA students That I sparred with were good enough to make me switch schools Even though they out ranked me by far


And you people that keep bringing up that you can’t find the stuff on Google there was no google in 1990. Those of us that have been studying for 30 or 40 years understand that Being good at marketing and being good at Martial arts is not the same thing


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## DGarich (Jul 6, 2021)

DGarich said:


> And you people that keep bringing up that you can’t find the stuff on Google there was no google in 1990. Those of us that have been studying for 30 or 40 years understand that Being good at marketing and being good at Martial arts is not the same thing


By the way you’re not a master just because you’ve been studying for 5 to 10 years. Buying a black belt and earning a black belt are two different things.


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## lklawson (Jul 6, 2021)

DGarich said:


> I would like to put a reply to this thread because this makes it seem like he is some kind of marketing person that is trying to scam people. He was there at Wright Patterson Air Force Base because he was stationed there in the Air Force he was transferred out of the area because the Air Force transferred him . this has nothing to do with martial arts marketing. He trained military personnel in various places during his career. Many of his students started their own school and used his name on Their website. many of these have nothing to do with Mike Veros. The last I heard from him he was teaching Marines hand to hand combat in Okinawa but this was secondhand knowledge from a student that was in the class when I learned from him. Just because some of his students want to make a name for themselves I don’t think that it’s fair to use his name to disparage his learning under Professor Ancho. I learned from him in the early 90s. I am aware that a student that studied with Mike Veros under Ancho claims to be his only student authorized to teach. I learned this from one of TAMAs students Who challenged me to a fight because his teacher had been teaching this nonsense. I think that kind of discussion is just posturing to make your school look better than somebody else’s and has nothing actually to do with real martial arts experience


That's nice but it's a reply to stuff that I didn't write.  Re-read what I wrote.


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## DGarich (Jul 6, 2021)

DGarich said:


> By the way you’re not a master just because you’ve been studying for 5 to 10 years. Buying a black belt and earning a black belt are two different things.


Danzan Ryu And many other systems are businesses that require thousands of dollars to get a 7° black belt. After 4th degree black belt it is mostly time served Not ability…you have to be a fourth-degree black belt for five years to get fifth degree, Another six for 6th degree, Another seven for 7th degree. That’s how Mike Veros  got his 7th degree black belt… Time served. Not by paying some company thousands of dollars for the right to be worthy.


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## DGarich (Jul 6, 2021)

DGarich said:


> Danzan Ryu And many other systems are businesses that require thousands of dollars to get a 7° black belt. After 4th degree black belt it is mostly time served Not ability…you have to be a fourth-degree black belt for five years to get fifth degree, Another six for 6th degree, Another seven for 7th degree. That’s how Mike Veros  got his 7th degree black belt… Time served. Not by paying some company thousands of dollars for the right to be worthy.


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## lklawson (Jul 6, 2021)

DGarich said:


> And you people that keep bringing up that you can’t find the stuff on Google there was no google in 1990.


Do you know that you're replying to yourself?



DGarich said:


> Those of us that have been studying for 30 or 40 years understand that Being good at marketing and being good at Martial arts is not the same thing


Most of the long-time MT members who are participating in this thread, do, in fact, have multiple decades of martial arts experience.    I started in 1986 (or was it 1985?  I forget.  It's been a pretty long time).


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## DGarich (Jul 6, 2021)

DGarich said:


> The reason this makes me so angry is because this is the exact same kind of rhetoric that the TAMA school was touting when Mike Vera’s was teaching in Beavercreek. This was never mentioned once to me under Mike Veros  in Beaver Creek. Mike Veros did not talk **** about other schools. That should be the first clue. I went to Beaver Creek high school with one of the students that studied at TAMA, And he challenged me to a fight as I said earlier and when I went to his house to discuss it with him he explained all of this to me. This is all just high school BS. I never studied at the TAMA school so I have no idea what they’re teaching other than what this person told me. But I can tell you that this student that challenged me was a black belt that had been there for years by his account. I had studied under Mike Veros for about a year and just earned a brown belt. He was not very good . Let’s just leave it at that, but what I did learn from him is that there was some kind of ridiculous rivalry that apparently Mike Veros never talked about but the instructor at TAMA never quit talking about. But I guess the real question is…is that professor Ancho was famous for teaching at Wright Patterson Air Force Base…Why was it Mike Veros that continued to teach at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base after he left If the guy from Tama was the chosen one? Mike Veros taught actual warriors who actually fought in the US military. He didn’t concern himself with high school kids who thought that Tama was a better school. Even though everybody at the high school knew the TAMA Guys were all talk while
> the military police at Wright Patt were learning from Mike Veros. I wasn’t in the military I was a high school student learning from Mike , Michael, Brian, Desmond, Pete, And many other great black and brown belts that started there But I can tell you that none of those TAMA students That I sparred with were good enough to make me switch schools Even though they out ranked me by far


And another and in my opinion the most important detail is Mike Veros always sparred and participated with every student. He didn’t just say he was a master and then have somebody else teach the class you could go up against him any day And be embarrassed or as he was a generous spirit succeed in someway but know that you still had much to learn


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## DGarich (Jul 6, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Do you know that you're replying to yourself?
> 
> 
> Most of the long-time MT members who are participating in this thread, do, in fact, have multiple decades of martial arts experience.    I started in 1986 (or was it 1985?  I forget.  It's been a pretty long time).


Yes I know that I was replying to myself and I could care less I’m trying to make a point and I don’t really give a **** what you think


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## DGarich (Jul 6, 2021)

DGarich said:


> Yes I know that I was replying to myself and I could care less I’m trying to make a point and I don’t really give a **** what you think
> 
> 
> lklawson said:
> ...


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## DGarich (Jul 6, 2021)

DGarich said:


> Yes I know that I was replying to myself and I could care less I’m trying to make a point and I don’t really give a **** what you think


People like you are what is wrong with martial arts. I might not be the best at navigating your ridiculous martial arts website Because I am old and your website is ridiculously antiquated.but I can tell you that people like you ruined Martial arts for me


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 6, 2021)

Thread locked pending staff review.


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