# Choosing a Self Defense Knife



## Shinkengata

This is an article i wrote for those who are fairly new to knives and knife defense.

*Choosing a Self Defense Knife*

First off, I would like to preclude this article by saying that it will always be in your best interest to first find a school of formal knife combat instruction, and that I HIGHLY suggest it before carrying a knife for self defense purposes, otherwise you may just be giving the attacker a weapon with which he can take away from you and kill you. Furthermore, unless you want to spend your life in prison, or at least a large chunk of it for murder, attempted murder, or assault with a deadly weapon, I suggest you deeply research your state's laws on knife and knife-related defense. There are many schools and systems of knife fighting and defense out there, and it will be up to you to find out which one is right for you, so again, do your research. This article is geared towards modern, multi-use knives rather than specialty blades for legal reasons pertaining to the carry and use of such weapons. For this purpose, I will not be including such implements as the Karambit, the Balisong, or other fighting system-specific weapons. So without further ado, let's jump right in. 


There are many things to consider when choosing a knife to carry for self-defense purposes. This article is written to serve as a general guideline for knife quality, design, and legal compliance, but ultimately, in order to find the perfect knife for you, it is necessary that you spend a decent amount of time in a school or system of knife combat to better understand how you are going to be using the knife, and what kind of knife would best suit the techniques and principles of said system. Furthermore, your needs in terms of design and features will change the more familiar you become with the system and techniques in which you are training. 

*DESIGN *

The design of your knife is extremely important in determining a good self-defense knife. All good self-defense knives are well made from good, tough steels, have sturdy handles, and reliable mechanisms. However, I don't suggest that you just go out and buy something made with what is considered the strongest and most roughneck steel at the moment. You are not going to be putting this knife thru any kind of phenomenal, Rambo-like abuse. Remember, it's a Self-Defense knife, not a knife you're going to be using to take apart a space shuttle. There is no urgent need for a Titanium Alloy handle or Frame with an S90V blade, or materials of that nature. These materials may very well be extremely tough, but they are also very expensive, and losing a knife can be somewhat easy when it travels with you everywhere you go. Plus, if you ever have to use it, chances are you will never see it again because it will become property of whatever law enforcement agency is handing your case. So lets stick with something thats easily replaceable. 

There are two basic types of knife. The first type is the folder knife, which is characterized by a blade that folds into the handle-frame, where it is housed. When it is unfolded from the frame, a locking mechanism secures the blade in the open position to prevent it from folding or moving freely until you are ready to fold it back into the handle-frame again. The second type is the fixed-blade knife. This type of knife is characterized by a blade that is permanently set into the handle, and does not fold or move. A fixed-blade knife is housed in a sheath, or protective carrying and housing device, with much of the same principle as the holster of a pistol; to protect the carrier and others, as well as the knife itself. Your choice of folder or fixed-blade depends on your personal preference and/or needs, and may also depend on your local laws. 

There are many steels very suitable for knife blades out there, and there are also steels that have no business being used to make knife blades. Some good tough steels are D2, ATS-34, AUS-6, AUS-8, O-1, ATS-55, 1085-95, and 440C. Many will read the last steel in that list and scoff, but rest assured, with proper heat-treating, 440C is some damn tough steel. I've seen it myself. The bad rep that 440C gets stems from the fact that most manufactured items made from 440C are made from annealed 440, and are hence soft and easily bent. Properly heated 440C rivals ATS-34 in toughness. Lets take a look at each one of these steels I have listed. 

*D2:* Or its full name, BS4659 BD2, is a high carbon, high chromium, molybdenum, vanadium tool and knife steel which possesses good wear resistance, excellent surface hardness, and good edge retention in knives. Although somewhat more corrosion resistant than 1085 and 1095 carbon steel, it still needs periodic inspection to ensure cleanliness and should be cleaned and coated with a thin layer of machine oil or water displacement solution(WD-40) after submersion or considerable exposure to moisture. 

*ATS-34:* The Japanese stainless steel produced by Hitachi Steels®, which exhibits excellent corrosion resistance and very good edge retention. Blades with this steel will vary in toughness from medium to very tough depending on which individual or company makes or manufactures the knife, and how expensive the knife is. 

*AUS-6:* Is another Japanese stainless steel used in low-medium to medium priced knives. With a carbon content of .65%, its a little softer than ATS-34, but can be a bit tougher and more resistant to chipping or breakage. 

*AUS-8:* Is basically the same as AUS-6, but with a slightly higher carbon content of .75%, making it potentially a little harder. 

*O-1:* Is mainly a custom knife makers steel. It is very tough, is easy to sharpen, and holds an edge very well. Its only drawback is its high susceptibility to rust. Regular cleaning and coating with oil is required to minimize corrosion. 

*ATS-55:* The molybdenum-free version of ATS-34. It also has some other elements added to the makeup of the steel, giving it the edge retention of ATS-34, with slightly increased toughness. 

*1085-1095:* Simple carbon steels with high carbon contents of .85% and .95%, respectively. They perform well, but rust easily. Again, maintenance cleaning and care is necessary to avoid corrosion. They can be quite brittle due to the high carbon content, which is why differential tempering is important to maintain toughness. Differential tempering is a process which hardens parts of the blade (usually the edge) to a higher RC rating than other parts, yielding a harder edge for cutting and edge retention, and a softer back or other region to allow for shock absorption and break-resistance. 

*440C:* Is a stainless steel with a carbon content of roughly 1.2%, and a high chromium content that makes it very rust resistant. Properly hardened 440C is ideally rated at 56-59RC, and is an excellent utility steel. It resists breaking quite well despite its high carbon content. 

One or two manufacturers, such as Spyderco, most commonly use some of these steels, like the ATS-55,®. 1085-1095 is mainly used to make fixed blade knives, so it will be hard to find a folder with a 1085 or 1095 blade. 

The handle material of a self-defense knife is not so important as the handle SHAPE of a self-defense knife. I do, however, suggest something good and sturdy, such as G-10 (G-10 is an epoxy based laminate) or another material that is reasonably tough with a good gripping surface. The reason why the handle SHAPE takes priority over the handle material is simple. Fit and Safety. How well does it fit your hand, and how likely is your hand to slide onto the blade during a stab or thrust? Is it easy to get the proper grip on the handle without having to consciously pay attention to it? Since every persons hand is different, this is something you will have to figure out on your own.. I will say, however, that a good indication of a practical handle shape for this reason will be one that has a finger groove for the index finger. The reason for this is that the groove will provide support, or a sort of no-slip zone for either your index finger during a thrusting motion, or your pinky during a stabbing motion, both of which respectively take the majority of the force of the stab during these motions. To say it a little more clearly, your index finger will bear the majority of the energy in the thrusting motion, and your pinky will bear a majority of the force in a backwards-grip stabbing motion, although not as much if you are using your thumb over the end of the handle for support and power. The gripping quality of the handle is important, also. Some handle materials have natural gripping qualities, whereas the surface of others needs to be checkered or altered to make them more graspable. Some knives even have grip inserts, such as textured rubber or a material similar to skateboard tape. Handle Length is also an issue, and this is another thing you will have to determine on your own, since hands come in all shapes and sizes. Generally, the handle butt should protrude ½ -1 inch from your hand, to allow for adequate finger room and maneuvering. 

Next is the Blade Design. A good blade design will be one that is decently thick, with the tip being wide enough or strong enough to resist breaking if you were to, say, accidentally punch it into a hard surface such as a brick wall or asphalt. However, the tip should also be able to easily pierce any part of the human anatomy, so design is important here. I don't recommend Chisel-like, or box-like tanto shaped tips. They don't pierce quite as well as other types of tips, plus real tanto kissaki (blade tip) did not and do not look anything like what you see in these Pseudo-tactical blades of today, so my advice is to avoid them. I advise that you treat a knife fight as a life-and-death situation, because that is exactly what it is. You want to end it as quickly as possible, and if you do not have a good tip on your knife, or if the tip is broken, you will probably have to rely strictly on slashing, which is basically the hard way. Generally, the choice of blade shape and design is dependant on how you intend to use it. Certain blade shapes and styles are better employed by some knife combat systems than others. For instance, a claw blade, such as that on a Spyderco Harpy (pictured below), is better employed in slashing and ripping techniques rather than stabbing and thrusting, whereas a dagger is more suitable for stabbing and thrusting techniques. 






_The Spyderco Harpy_ 

Blade length is something that depends heavily on your local laws. Most states have a length law, meaning that you cannot legally carry and/or conceal a knife with blade that is longer than the established regulation length. I recommend a blade length of at least 3.5-4 inches, if allowed. If your state has lower length limits, go with the maximum length allowed. The longer the blade, the deeper the stab and the more able it is to hit vital organs and arteries. Blade-to-handle length ratio is something to consider also, since a longer handle provides you with more leverage. 

Edge is something that has been up for debate for some time. It's basically a situational choice. If you are a skilled knife-sharpener, then you may want to go with a plain edge. If you have trouble putting a keen edge on your knives, you may opt for a serrated or partially serrated blade. Many prefer the combo-edge or a knife with an edge that is half plain, and half serrated. Either way, you are going to want something that will cut VERY easily and VERY deeply. If you have to use this knife on somebody, then chances are you intend to kill them. And let's be realistic, you want to be able to cause as much damage as possible with every contact the blade makes with flesh. 

The sheath, or scabbard, is another thing to take into account when choosing a knife, if you are choosing a fixed blade. The sheath should be able to fit comfortably and discreetly in the place of your choice, and should allow for quick release and access to the knife. The sheath should also fit the knife well. Its not the most desirable thing to have a knife what wiggles around and moves freely within its sheath, especially if you are carrying it on a day-to-day basis. It can be uncomfortable, and in some instances, it can make noise. Many prefer sheaths made from KYDEX®, a durable thermoplastic that can be heat-molded around the blade and guard of the knife for a perfect, glove-like fit. The tactical advantage of KYDEX® is that there are no security straps to hold the knife in, hence the knife can be pulled from the sheath with minimum delay, and the knife can be worn in positions with a KYDEX® sheath that would normally cause the knife to fall out of a leather or nylon sheath without a security strap of some sort. KYDEX® is also used in making gun holsters for this very same purpose. 

The last major factor for consideration in knife design is only applicable on folders. That is the locking mechanism. This is particularly important, because without a strong locking mechanism, you run the risk of severe personal injury to yourself should the mechanism fail or collapse. All Locking mechanisms have their drawbacks and weaknesses, and should each be examined carefully. There are 3 basic types of locking folders. 

-Lockback 
-liner lock 
-frame lock 

Many Lockbacks can be eliminated completely from your options for the simple fact that it takes two hands to open and close them, and with speed and ease of deployment being a priority in your choice of knife, it's easy to see why you would generally want to avoid these types of knives. The knives you want to avoid in this category of locking mechanisms are knives such as W.R. Cases pocketknives, and Bucks Folding Hunters. They require two hands to open and the entire folding mechanisms are quite stiff. There are,of course, lockback knives that are quite easy to open with one hand, given that you can master the technique of snapping the wrist. Gerbers first incarnation of the Gator, the 650 model, can be opened easily with a snap of the wrist. 





_The Gerber Gator Lockback_ 

The Liner Lock is used on many folders today, and often requires only one hand to open the blade via thumb stud or hole in the blade. The only drawback is that Liner Locks tend to malfunction after a while, usually causing some degree of injury to it's user. Regular utility use of a liner lock is discouraged to avoid wear and tear that would increase the likelihood of such an occurrence, if you wish to use it for self-defense. 





_Kershaw Liner Lock_ 

The Frame Lock is my personal choice for a self-defense folder. It is important, however, that you take a few things into consideration with a frame lock. There are good and bad frame locks. Simple common sense will serve you well here. Look at the lock. Does it LOOK sturdy? A good frame lock is just as thick if not a little thicker than the rest of the handle. A good frame lock should have a handle made from a sturdy material, since the lock is part of the frame (hence the name). If this is not the case, the lock should then at least be reinforced in some way. When examining a frame lock, look at the lock when it is engaged. Does it line up well with the blade when engaged? A good frame lock will line up very nicely, if not perfectly, with the blade. A frame lock can be very sturdy, but regular inspection is needed to ensure that the lock is in good condition and still lines up well with the blade when engaged. When the lock is no longer lining up well with the blade, or displays signs of questionable wear, either replace the knife, or have the manufacturer repair or replace it. 





_Microtech Mini-SOCOM Elite Frame Lock_ 

Some manufacturers have chosen to design and implement their own proprietary locking mechanisms, but I have yet to see any quantifiable proof that any of these locking mechanisms are vastly superior to the 3 basics I just covered. 

Another feature on many folders to consider is the pocket-clip. The pocket clip is a small steel or other metal clip attached to the side of the handle frame of a folder. They come in many different styles and materials, varying from model to model. 300-303 Stainless steel seems to be the most popular material of choice for pocket clips. They are reasonably sturdy and resist bending. The most common two types of clip are the normal clip, where the opening of the clip points toward the end of the handle frame, and the backwards clip, where the opening of the clip points toward the folding mechanism of the blade.. This is also an area of choice based on preference. I personally prefer the backward clip because its quicker and more convenient for my deployment technique. 

*LEGALITIES* 

A knife is classified as a deadly weapon by all 50 states in the USA, and rightly so. A knife can kill people. It can kill people VERY easily. Thus, it would only make sense that in order to consider carrying one for self-defense, you need to know your law. Research your state and local laws on knife defense, carry, size-limits, and general usage before deciding to carry for the purpose discussed in this article. Failure to do so will almost surely result in serious legal trouble for you should you ever use it on someone, and depending on what kind of knife you have and whether or not its concealed, failure to research your local law may even result in legal trouble if you are just carrying it on your person.That being said, let me explain a couple of things to consider that are not written in law books. 

Earlier in this article I wrote extensively on the design of a knife for practicality purposes. What many may not know is that design applies as much to the legal side of carrying and using a knife as it does in the practical and effective use of it. Of course, it's common knowledge to anyone familiar with knives that length and opening mechanisms are legal issues, but let's look a little deeper than that. 

Lets say you used your knife in a self-defense encounter. The cops show up, arrest you, and the attacker is carted off to the hospital for treatment. When the case goes to trial, your knife will be evidence presented before the jury. The look and name of your knife are very important here. An aggressive looking knife with an aggressive sounding name may be perfectly legal by the books, but it may not go over very well with the jury deciding your case of self-defense. You are much more likely to get off on a self-defense ruling if you defended yourself with a "Remco Model 3 Fisherman" with a plain, non-coated blade and simple handle, than if you were to use a "Falcon Deathstalker X" with the skullbuster pommel. 

My point is that a jury is going to take a look at a simple, inconspicuous utility knife with a simple non-threatening name, and be more inclined towards a self-defense ruling. If they look at a knife that has a malevolent look and name, they will be more inclined to view you as a violent and unstable person who was just looking for an excuse to cut or stab someone. 

My suggestion is to choose a general utility knife that has an inconspicuous name and appearance. This will save you a lot of grief in the long run, and could very well make the difference in you spending time in jail or getting off on a self-defense ruling. 

A fight involving a knife is most always ugly, quick, and messy. The knife you choose to employ if such a situation occurs can have a direct impact on whether you live or die. A knife that is comfortable to handle, easy to hold onto, and easy and fast to access and deploy is what you should look for. 

Always remember that arming yourself with knowledge before arming yourself with anything else is the most important preparation for effective self-defense that you can make. 

-Eric


----------



## Floating Egg

That's a really great article. One of the things that surprised me was your tanto tip comment. You learn something new everyday. Thanks a lot!


----------



## KenpoTex

Couple of questions...

Why do you feel that the tanto style blades are not as effective as the others?  Yeah, to some extent I agree; a tanto isn't going to be as "needle-sharp" as a spear-point.  However, with any design you have strengths and weaknesses, the nice thing about the tanto is that it is a very strong design since the blade maintains its thickness for almost the entire length.  I really don't have a huge preference I've owned and carried knives with a variety of blade styles (clip, drop-point, tanto, spear).  Just wondering why you don't care for them.



> I personally prefer the backward clip because its quicker and more convenient for my deployment technique.


 Tip-up?


----------



## Shinkengata

kenpotex said:
			
		

> Couple of questions...
> 
> 1.)Why do you feel that the tanto style blades are not as effective as the others? Yeah, to some extent I agree; a tanto isn't going to be as "needle-sharp" as a spear-point. However, with any design you have strengths and weaknesses, the nice thing about the tanto is that it is a very strong design since the blade maintains its thickness for almost the entire length. I really don't have a huge preference I've owned and carried knives with a variety of blade styles (clip, drop-point, tanto, spear). Just wondering why you don't care for them.
> 
> 2.)Tip-up?


1.)I've owned several "tanto" style blades, both folder and fixed blade, and i always had a harder time stabbing into things(yes, i like to play with my knives) with the "tanto" style blades than other styles. I've found that you can have a blade with a good strong tip without having to  significantly compromise it's piercing capabilities. With the Tanto tip, it always felt like i was trying to pierce something with an angled chisel.

2.) Correct. I've owned nearly 30 folders, and out of all of them, the "tip-up", as you refer to them, were the most comfortable for me.


----------



## Cruentus

Good overall article and effort. Covers the basics nicely. I liked the coverage of steel types and materials, which isn't usually covered in an article like this one.

I also liked the first paragraph of the "design" section; some very good points were made there regarding quality vs. expense. 

Also a good point about serrated, combo, or plain edge. I used to be adament about plain edge being the only way to go for self defense, and if one needs serrations for utility then go with a combo edge; but that full serrated is never the way to go (and of course as my experience grows I am realizing that it isn't really good to be adament about anything). In fact, I believe I have said that on this forum. Yet, that is my own bias because I keep very sharp knives. So, when I did some cutting drills and test cutting exercises on meat wrapped in cloth, my sharp plain edge knives far outperformed my serrated edged knives, without question. This, naturally, would make one adement about this issue. However, one day not too long ago, a friend pointed out that although I am correct, most people aren't freaks like me who carry shaving sharp (or just under shaving sharp) knives. For people who don't keep their knives as sharp as they should, serrated may be the way to go.

As my experience grows not just as a combatant, but as a teacher and researcher, I realize more and more that there are really no absolutes. I thought that you handled the issue of which edge to carry very truthfully and diplomatically.

That said, you may want to revisit your opinion on Tanto tiped blades. Although I agree with much of your commentary on this, I find that just like most of this stuff, there are no absolutes. Although it is true that the american tanto generally is not the most effective stabbing tool compared to a spear, drop, or clip point, it happends to be the most resilient of tips on the market. If one is using a knife for utility, or for hard use, tanto or chisle might be the right tip for that person. Plus, it depends on the actual knife design. I have used tanto's that have been shaped for combative use, and work very well for stabbing and slashing compared to other tanto's not designed as well.  So although I don't discredit your point (no pun intended  ) each tip and design has it's advantages and disadvantages, so one has to weigh these out and choose what is right for them.

Overall, though, nice job.

Thanks for sharing!!  artyon: 

Paul


----------



## Joe Talmadge

Very nice!  It takes a lot of work to put something like this together.  I have some constructive criticism, which might make your already-strong piece even stronger (or, you could decide I'm full of it and ignore me  ) Some comments: 



			
				Shinkengata said:
			
		

> However, I don't suggest that you just go out and buy something made with what is considered the strongest and most roughneck steel at the moment. You are not going to be putting this knife thru any kind of phenomenal, Rambo-like abuse.



Good point, this is strictly a self-defense knife you're talking about, and not something that's doing double-duty as a hard-use utility knife as well.



> There are many steels very suitable for knife blades out there, and there are also steels that have no business being used to make knife blades. Some good tough steels are D2, ATS-34, AUS-6, AUS-8, O-1, ATS-55, 1085-95, and 440C. Many will read the last steel in that list and scoff, but rest assured, with proper heat-treating, 440C is some damn tough steel. I've seen it myself. The bad rep that 440C gets stems from the fact that most manufactured items made from 440C are made from annealed 440, and are hence soft and easily bent. Properly heated 440C rivals ATS-34 in toughness. Lets take a look at each one of these steels I have listed.



Nice steel section.  I have some technical quibbles.  For example, well-done 440C doesn't rival ATS-34 in toughness, it beats it nicely.  And you describe 1084/1095 as "brittle" -- which may be true when compared to steels like 5160 and tool steels like L6, but the only steels on your list that 1084 wouldn't blow away in terms of toughness is O1.  Also, I might include some of the current popular steels, like S30V and VG-10, which are really sound choices and are showing up on some of the best-designed defensive folders, and steels like INFI and 52100 and 0170-6/50100B, which are showing up on a number of great fixed blades.

Be careful to square your initial good advice about not worrying too much about the steel, with this steel section.  Let's face it, kitchen knives with horrendously bad steel are probably responsible for more edged-weapon deaths than any ATS-34 blades out there.  And a typical defensive situation shouldn't last more than a few thrusts.  Generally speaking, while it's never a bad idea to go with better quality, for a knife that's strictly self-defense, even a lower-end steel might hold up fine.  For a strictly self-defense knife, steel choice wouldn't be incredibly high on my priority list, once I hit a basic level of steel performance.



> Next is the Blade Design. A good blade design will be one that is decently thick, with the tip being wide enough or strong enough to resist breaking if you were to, say, accidentally punch it into a hard surface such as a brick wall or asphalt. However, the tip should also be able to easily pierce any part of the human anatomy, so design is important here. I don't recommend Chisel-like, or box-like tanto shaped tips. They don't pierce quite as well as other types of tips, plus real tanto kissaki (blade tip) did not and do not look anything like what you see in these Pseudo-tactical blades of today, so my advice is to avoid them.



I'm with you.  Technically, you could grind an American-style tanto to have a thin high-performing tip, or grind a drop-point blade to have a thick reinforced tip.  But generally speaking, tanto tips sacrifice penetration ability for tip strength.  I could sort-of understand that for a utility knife, or if people were going around wearing hard armor.  But for a modern self-defense knife, I'd advise choosing penetration over steel-piercing strength in a split second.  If the bad guy is wearing armor, it'll be soft armor, and thick leathers and denims and winter jackets function as a soft armor of sorts.



> Edge is something that has been up for debate for some time. It's basically a situational choice. If you are a skilled knife-sharpener, then you may want to go with a plain edge. If you have trouble putting a keen edge on your knives, you may opt for a serrated or partially serrated blade. Many prefer the combo-edge or a knife with an edge that is half plain, and half serrated.



Ya, you're right, serrated blades are easier for people who can't sharpen.  Serrated blades cut rope and stationary material under tension really well.  But in more realistic tests, the serrations can and do get hung up in tough material that is not under tension, which is what you'd have in a defensive situation.  Plain edge works better for defensive use, IMO, and it's worth spending a little time with a sharpening jig to learn how to sharpen it.



> Either way, you are going to want something that will cut VERY easily and VERY deeply. If you have to use this knife on somebody, then chances are you intend to kill them.



My defensive mindset is always to stop, not to kill, not to wound (no difference whether I'm defending myself with a knife or firearm -- shoot to stop).  



> The sheath, or scabbard, is another thing to take into account when choosing a knife, if you are choosing a fixed blade.



Yes!  It may be worth mentioning the complementary issue when it comes to folders: ease of carryability.  A folder is riding in or on your pocket, normally.  Pick one that rides easily, or you'll be tempted to leave it home.



> Many Lockbacks can be eliminated completely from your options for the simple fact that it takes two hands to open and close them, and with speed and ease of deployment being a priority in your choice of knife, it's easy to see why you would generally want to avoid these types of knives. The knives you want to avoid in this category of locking mechanisms are knives such as W.R. Cases pocketknives, and Bucks Folding Hunters. They require two hands to open and the entire folding mechanisms are quite stiff.



That's less a function of the fact that they're lockbacks, and more a function of the fact that these knives are not designed as one-hand openers.  The big point should be that it should be a one-hand opener.  A discussion of opening mechanisms might work really nicely here: holes, thumb studs, thumb disks, waves, etc.



> The Liner Lock is used on many folders today, and often requires only one hand to open the blade via thumb stud or hole in the blade. The only drawback is that Liner Locks tend to malfunction after a while, usually causing some degree of injury to it's user. Regular utility use of a liner lock is discouraged to avoid wear and tear that would increase the likelihood of such an occurrence, if you wish to use it for self-defense.



Not only do I think you're right, but you've understated the problem a bit.  Despite the liner lock's popularity, it is by far the lock format that is most difficult for makers to manufacturer in a _consistently_ reliable manner.  As a result, many of us have seen way more reliability problems with liner locks than with other locks, under conditions that could reasonably be expected in defensive use (e.g., failures under torques).  There's a large and growing number of knife folks who avoid liner locks for hard-use knives, and I'm solidly among them.



> Some manufacturers have chosen to design and implement their own proprietary locking mechanisms, but I have yet to see any quantifiable proof that any of these locking mechanisms are vastly superior to the 3 basics I just covered.



Just a quibble here, your opinion is reasonable enough.  There's no real source of completely scientific proof on locks -- no one is doing double-blind controlled testing, right?  But where knife folks who have lots of knives gather, and test among their collections, it's pretty clear that some of the proprietary locks (most noteably BM's axis, and also Spyderco's compression lock) are at least as good as the ones you've mentioned.  "Vastly superior"?  Hard to get vastly superior to a well-done lockback as on a Chinook, or framelock as on a Sebenza.  But as good, and so worthy of being included on your short list?  Yes, definitely.



> The most common two types of clip are the normal clip, where the opening of the clip points toward the end of the handle frame, and the backwards clip, where the opening of the clip points toward the folding mechanism of the blade.. This is also an area of choice based on preference. I personally prefer the backward clip because its quicker and more convenient for my deployment technique.



I think your forward clip is what most of us call "tip down", and backward clip is what most of us call "tip up".  There are definitely advantages and disadvantages to each ... it may come down to personal preference, but I do think that tip-down draw tends to be faster, but that's offset by the fact that tip-down draws _always_ include a pinch grip at some point during the draw, and not everyone is comfortable pinch-gripping in a high-adrenaline life-threatening situation (I know I'm not).


----------



## Cruentus

> My defensive mindset is always to stop, not to kill, not to wound (no difference whether I'm defending myself with a knife or firearm -- shoot to stop).



That's wise Joe. Saying that you were stabbing "to kill" lines you up for legal trouble; I advocate that whatever your self-defense tool is, you defend to "stop."

Nice post.


----------



## Shinkengata

Very good point. I was always told by my instructor that you should resist the urge in your excitement to explain your situation to the cops in the aftermath of an attack by saying something such as  "He put my family in danger, he was coming after us, and i HAD to stop him." instead of saying something such as "That S.O.B. tried to come in my house and get to my family, so i F***ed him up!"

But as i see it, stopping someone if you have to deploy a knife, under justifiable circumstances, will most likely mean you having to kill them, because their adrenaline will be pumping at such a level that they are not going to give in to pain easily at all, and it will take disabling or stopping a bodily function, such as the ability to walk, or breathe, or live....to stop them. Some tend to underestimate how the human survival instinct kicks into high gear when they are confronted with a situation that poses a very clear threat to their lives.


----------



## Joe Talmadge

Shinkengata said:
			
		

> Very good point. I was always told by my instructor that you should resist the urge in your excitement to explain your situation to the cops in the aftermath of an attack by saying something such as  "He put my family in danger, he was coming after us, and i HAD to stop him." instead of saying something such as "That S.O.B. tried to come in my house and get to my family, so i F***ed him up!"
> 
> But as i see it, stopping someone if you have to deploy a knife, under justifiable circumstances, will most likely mean you having to kill them, because their adrenaline will be pumping at such a level that they are not going to give in to pain easily at all, and it will take disabling or stopping a bodily function, such as the ability to walk, or breathe, or live....to stop them. Some tend to underestimate how the human survival instinct kicks into high gear when they are confronted with a situation that poses a very clear threat to their lives.



I hear ya.  But I do think the "stop him" mindset is important.  When I first learned defensive shooting, I asked myself whether the "shoot to stop" discussion was just politically-correct silliness.  I came to the conclusion that it really isn't, that it embodies the mindset and ethics that a defensive shooter has to have.  Now, we all know that sending two rounds C.O.M., which is the most likely to stop the bad guy, also poses life-threatening risks to him (and if a failure-to-stop drill is further required, it's even worse).  But, my mindset is, if he stops attacking, I don't administer a coup de grace.  Let the bad guy worry about killing and wounding, I'm focused on stopping the attack and getting safe.   I think you could embody a "shoot to stop" spirit in your document, while still getting across the necessity of a high-performance knife and the dangerousness of the techniques.


----------



## KenpoTex

Joe Talmadge said:
			
		

> Now, we all know that sending two rounds C.O.M., which is the most likely to stop the bad guy, also poses life-threatening risks to him (and if a failure-to-stop drill is further required, it's even worse). But, my mindset is, if he stops attacking, I don't administer a coup de grace. Let the bad guy worry about killing and wounding, I'm focused on stopping the attack and getting safe.


 Well said.  When weapons are involved, techniques that will "stop" someone are potentially lethal in nature.  With a firearm, it's 2 to COM or the "zipper" or 2 and 1, or whatever particular method you prefer.  With a knife, you're looking for the "high pay-off" targets such as the throat/neck region, subclavian artery, femoral, or torso.  A cut or thrust to any of these areas stands a good chance of inflicting mortal damage.  However, as you said, you don't finish him off if he goes down and no longer poses a threat.
The problem arises because many people don't understand the subtle difference between acting to end the threat by the most effective means necessary, and acting with killing the person as the goal.


----------



## ginshun

Good article overall.

 As far as the tanto blade, it would seem to me, that if you are talking about stabbing it into a person, a tanto point is going to work just as well as any other.  For self defense purpose, I think it is really just a matter of personal preference.  To each his own.

 Also in the lock section it may be worthwhile to mention a couple others such as the Axis lock found on a lot of Benchmade's or the LAWKS lock on a lot of the CKRT knives.  While, like you said, they may not be better than the framelock, it would be a shame for people to overlock some of the great knives out there because they have a locking mechanism that they don't recognize.

 The steels section was great, something that people normally don't put into articles like this. I would have added a few more though.  At the very least 154CM, VG-10, and 420HC.  Maybe S30VG and the like, although that is probably outside of the price range of most people looking for a simple self defense knife.


----------



## Jason L

Curious what you guys think of these knives. The head of our association designed them. I think they are remarkable, curious what other "knife guys" will think.

http://rafterkk.com/akki_combat_knives.htm

Written description/explanation of;

http://www.akki.com/indexs/indexpage.htm


----------



## ginshun

Jason L said:
			
		

> Curious what you guys think of these knives. The head of our association designed them. I think they are remarkable, curious what other "knife guys" will think.
> 
> http://rafterkk.com/akki_combat_knives.htm
> 
> Written description/explanation of;
> 
> http://www.akki.com/indexs/indexpage.htm


 Based on the pics and descriptions they look like outstanding knives.  The detail work on the spines of the folders is absolutely beautiful.


----------



## Jason L

Cool, I'm glad you think so.

I noticed that the second link doesn't take you to the actual technical description, if anyone is interested, click on the merchandise link, then the weapons manual link, then click on the pic of the knife manual.


----------



## Brother Grimm

Those look like good knives. Have any tsts been done on the locks of the folders? As a side note, I used to carry a tanto style knife for utillity and self defense untill I had problems pushing the point through carpet I was cutting. It was a well made knife by a major manufacturer so I was very disapointed. I know carry a clip point knife as from the evidence I have seen the Bowie style clip point is the best for insertions into a soft medium (IMHO).


----------



## Shinkengata

ginshun said:
			
		

> The steels section was great, something that people normally don't put into articles like this. I would have added a few more though. At the very least 154CM, VG-10, and 420HC. Maybe S30VG and the like, although that is probably outside of the price range of most people looking for a simple self defense knife.


I excluded 154CM because it is basically the American steel maker's answer to Japan's ATS-34. Both are pretty much made the same and are equal in performance and properties. 154CM is made by Crucible Steels, Inc. in the US, and ATS-34 is made by Hitachi Steels in Japan.

VG-10 is a good steel, but often very expensive. It's considered one of the "supersteels" so it's a hot item at the moment.

420HC would be worth mentioning in an objective sense, but as far as personal reasons, i wouldn't include it because BUCK uses a lot of 420HC and i am thoroughly unimpressed with virtually every Buck knife i've ever handled, including the Alpha Hunter and the Strider.

I haven't had much of an opportunity to work with S30V, but im not one to jump on the bandwagon of fad and trendy materials, so im not going to recommend it or not recommend it until i've had plenty of time to evaluate it.
S30V and VG-10 are two steels that are what i would consider overkill, as far as pricing goes. Yeah, sure, they may be tough, but of course you're not going to be defending yourself against a person with soft flesh, bones, and muscle, not a cement monster. A good strong blade is an asset, but it's best not to go beyond your budget.


I've read much reasoning stating that the americanized tanto tip designs lend durability to the tip of the knife. However, the one thing that i do notice is that many tips have a very boxy angle right where the blade begins to point, as illustrated below:




The Emerson CQC-7B

I don't like this little angle. It doesn't provide for the best penetration capabilities. You can still strengthen the tip and not have this boxy type angle. For example, Just take a look at this knife:



The Emerson Waveless Commander​​Very strong and durable tip construction, and yet it doesn't compromise piercing capabilities as much.​​Part of my apathy towards the tactical tanto design comes, admittedly, from my own personal bias, as i am a fan of traditional Japanese blades, and most TRUE tanto looked like this:​​

​​That image is from The Bugei Trading Company's website, a company many of you may be familiar with, that produces historically accurate Japanese weapons. As you can see, the kissaki, or tip, of the tanto shown in this picture bears little or no resemblance to the chisel-like blades claiming the tanto name in many of today's modern knives.​


----------



## KenpoTex

Jason L said:
			
		

> Curious what you guys think of these knives. The head of our association designed them. I think they are remarkable, curious what other "knife guys" will think.


 Looks like some nice stuff, I really like the AKKI/Mills Fighter, and the Comanche Fighter.


----------



## ginshun

Shinkengata said:
			
		

> I excluded 154CM because it is basically the American steel maker's answer to Japan's ATS-34. Both are pretty much made the same and are equal in performance and properties. 154CM is made by Crucible Steels, Inc. in the US, and ATS-34 is made by Hitachi Steels in Japan.


 Yup, that is pretty much all I would have said about 154CM, but it is common enough to be worth mentioning.






			
				Shinkengata said:
			
		

> VG-10 is a good steel, but often very expensive. It's considered one of the "supersteels" so it's a hot item at the moment.


 Spyderco makes a bunch of knives in the $50 -$100 range that use VG-10. That might be a little on the high side, but not out of most peoples range I dont' think. I am probalby willing to pay more for knives than most, but I don't really ever expect to get waht I consider a nice knife for less than a about $70.




			
				Shinkengata said:
			
		

> 420HC would be worth mentioning in an objective sense, but as far as personal reasons, i wouldn't include it because BUCK uses a lot of 420HC and i am thoroughly unimpressed with virtually every Buck knife i've ever handled, including the Alpha Hunter and the Strider.


 Fair enough, I never really liked there folders either, but the Buck 110 is a standard, and I believe that is the steel it uses. I do like there fixed blade hunting knives though. As far as the 420HC goes, I don't think that it is a particulatly nice steel, but the heat treat that Buck does to it is amazing. There knives really hold an edge better than they should, at least that is what it seams like to me.


   S30V is pretty damn expensive, you are right, probably overkill.


----------



## Shinkengata

The completed and final revised draft of my article will be posted within 24 hours.


----------



## shesulsa

I'm bumping this thread because some new knives have come on the scene and wondering if anyone has changed their preferences?

Also wondering if that article was ever released, Shinengata?


----------



## SFC JeffJ

There are some lockbacks out there designed for one handed opening.  I like then and have a couple.  It's much stronger than the Walker Liner Lock.  I don't have any of the Benchmade Axis Lock knives, so I can't compare it to them.  The downside is it still takes two hands to close.


----------



## Shinkengata

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I'm bumping this thread because some new knives have come on the scene and wondering if anyone has changed their preferences?
> 
> Also wondering if that article was ever released, Shinengata?



Sorry for the late response. I've been absent from quite a few forums as of late. I'm not aware of any new knives that would necessarily be considered revolutionary. The Spyderco Pikal, if you haven't heard of it, is a very interesting new design, and im not sure where it is at this point in development. The last i checked, it was still in R&D, so it may be already released.

I'm not aware that my article was released. Mr. Elmore did not inform me of such, so i am inclined to think that it was not. It seems to be doing well here on this forum and a couple of others, and that's fine with me. I wrote it to inform and educate those who needed a primer on self-defense knives, and it appears to be doing that.

Take Care,

-Eric


----------



## KenpoTex

Shinkengata said:
			
		

> Sorry for the late response. I've been absent from quite a few forums as of late. I'm not aware of any new knives that would necessarily be considered revolutionary. The *Spyderco Pikal*, if you haven't heard of it, is a very interesting new design, and im not sure where it is at this point in development. The last i checked, it was still in R&D, so it may be already released.
> 
> -Eric


It's finished.  According to the designer, it should hit the market sometime this summer.  I'll definately be getting one...it's a sweet knife.


----------



## Phil Elmore

I could swear I sent you the link to the issue in which it appeared.  I did indeed publish it.  Check the table of contents pages at _The Martialist_ -- I think it was the 2005 Mega Issue, but don't hold me to that.


----------



## Shinkengata

Excellent. Much appreciated, Phil. I do not recall receiving a link, but the old email address i believe i used to correspond with you was the one that got hacked, so i can no longer access it. My current email address is onibakemono@gmail.com

Take care,

Eric


----------



## Flamebearer

Shinkengata, thanks much for posting that article! This thread has basically answered the question that I was going to ask. I'd place myself squarely in your target audience - although I regret my lack of formal knife training. I think, if a situation arose, I'd probably be using a knife to add more instant lethality to empty hand techniques, which I've studied for a while. Normally I'm unarmed, but due to a change of residence I'll be doing extensive late-night commuting alone in an urban environment. Fun fun fun ...
Thanks again,
-Flamebearer


----------



## fightingpower

Carrying a knife for 'self defense' as you call it, is a BAD idea!!!


----------



## lklawson

fightingpower said:


> Carrying a knife for 'self defense' as you call it, is a BAD idea!!!


Well, this resurrects an old thread, but OK.

Why do you think carrying a knife for purposes of self defense is a bad idea?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## arnisador

fightingpower said:


> Carrying a knife for 'self defense' as you call it, is a BAD idea!!!



As opposed to...?


----------



## fightingpower

Its another knife on the street.  Thats the end of the argument for me.  Sorry if this is contraversial but thats the way I feel!

Too many kids getting stabbed and I don;t think the answer is arming those kids to stab other kids who will then buy knives to stab more kids because they are scared of getting stabbed, etc etcd etc   feel free to change my mind I am not trying to start a row!


----------



## lklawson

fightingpower said:


> Its another knife on the street. Thats the end of the argument for me. Sorry if this is contraversial but thats the way I feel!
> 
> Too many kids getting stabbed and I don;t think the answer is arming those kids to stab other kids who will then buy knives to stab more kids because they are scared of getting stabbed, etc etcd etc feel free to change my mind I am not trying to start a row!


I appreciate your candid answer.  

You're right, in that I doubt you'll find a lot of people on these forums who agree with your reasoning.  I certainly do not.  

As for changing your mind, here's the counter-argument.

No one is suggesting carrying a knife, or indeed any weapon, by people who are not emotionally capable of it.  We're not talking "kids" or West-Side Story here.  We're talking about reasonable adults.  They're not interested in having gang wars or drug deals or the like.  All they want is effective Self Defense.  The purpose of weapons is as a Force Multiplier.  The Reader's Digest version is that it allows someone with less martial training, less physical capability, or some other Disparity of Force to "even it out."  This is the prototypical 90 lb. weakling vs. the line-backer, the grandma vs. the burglar, the single man against a gang of thugs, or one person vs. someone else who is armed or who is highly trained.

When you have a Cage Match or a Judo comp., for instance, you have reasonable assurance that the two combatants are going to remain ONLY two combatants, that the two of them have roughly equivalent training, roughly equivalent skills, and roughly equivalent physique.  In a Self Defense setting you have none of those assurances.  If you even have the luxury of knowing there's an agressor facing you (sometimes you may not know until you've already been attacked) you don't know if he's alone, if he has a weapon or what kind it may be, if he's a black belt in GJJ, Judo, Silat, and is a Golden Gloves champ.  You may not know just by looking at him how strong, conditioned, or resiliant to damage he is.  In short, you probably won't know how much of a threat your opponent is until well after it matters, if ever.  

To further stir the pot, the argument is often made that effective Self Defense using a weapon (such as a knife) requires far less training.  This seems self-evident in a way.  If it were not so, then you would not be concerned with kids carrying knives at all.  You'd shrug your shoulders and go, "well, it's no more dangerous than their fists."  But it is.  Some folks argue that with proper training a person needing Self Defense could do just as well unarmed.  History seems to disagree, since armies and body guards since the dawn of time have been armed, however, that aside, the concept of "proper unarmed training" needs to be put in perspective.  What it means is a *LOT* of training.  One Silat practicioner I know says that if the other guy has a knife, take 5 to 10 years off of your training.  And that's if the other guy doesn't know really how to use it.  Further, it's not just training, but CONSTANT training.  Can't let the skills get even a little bit rusty.  Now, the fact is that Joe Sixpack probably doesn't have the time to invest, and likely doesn't have a good reason to when simply adding a weapon with (comparative speaking) minimal training will set him at a parity with the attacker.  Why should he, he reasons, have to invest years upon years, thousands upon thousands of hours, and large amounts of his personal income getting "training" just because someone else thinks that knives can hurt someone?  He has a job, a family, a life, and other hobbies to pursue besides getting colored belts to wrap 'round white pajamas.

Another argument often made against using weapons for Self Defense is that the person could have avoided the problem by simply using better situational awareness or by avoiding bad areas.  The typical "story" is often related of a student who asks his master, "How can I be sure to never lose a Bar Fight?"  "Stay out of bars," the master replies.  Sounds good on the surface but, to be honest, it's trite.  You cannot be assured that you will never be attacked.  You can sometimes adjust the odds down by situational awareness and doing your best to avoid dangerous areas but that doesn't mean you won't accidentally wind up in a bad area of town, won't be forced to go there for some other reason (like picking up a drunk friend), or that dangerous folks won't come search you out (such as a Home Hnvader).

In short, a weapon is an "Insurance Policy" that many folks believe is reasonable.

There's a lot more to it, but I think this is a good start.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## wushuguy

Perhaps if more responsible people carry, then those irresponsibe troublemakers would think twice about pulling out their knives because of the threat that they are also likely to get cut in a confrontation.

Carrying a knife doesn't mean one will use it in a self-defense situation anyway. For example, if one is surprised he might not get to pull out the knife, and if it's a folder, he might only get the chance to use it as a blunt object rather than opening up the blade.

Being equally or better armed than the threat may also in itself be a deterrent. Anyway, just carrying a knife doesn't mean one is a trouble maker stabbing or cutting people as many imagine.


----------



## BLACK LION

The problem is responsible people do not take on the responsibility.  
There are few that do. 
I have carried a knife tool since I was 8 years old and my father before me and his before him...  The first thing he told me was it is not a toy and it is not a weapon... it is a tool.  
 I have yet to stab someone and pray I never have to.  

What happened to our nation of riflemman... a nation in which the 10 year old son is left with the rifle to protect the family with while pa goes to town for supplies.  
People in a responsible position are too busy worried about crap that makes no sens or is completely irrelevant adn on top of that they vote for politicians and council member and what not who are equally concerned with irrelevant issues and to stupid or to scared to explore the real ones...  

Discipline, instruction and accountability are going down the crapper....Parents are too afraid to even spank thier own children out of fear of complaint or reprocussion...   When I was growing up my principal could spank me as well as everyone in the neighborhood if they caught me messing up....   gone are the days where society protects and looks out for one another....   

just give em a game boy a cell phone and an i-pod and call it a life....


----------



## wushuguy

Yeah, sadly enough that's true. People are more and more selfish, and are less responsible as a society. Although our technology increases, things like sense, humanity, etc. are as you say "going down the crapper."

As martial artists, I believe we are generally more peaceful (although others may not perceive us as such), and also from our training we understand more the responsibility and seriousness of such things.

If one is really worried about how people would look at you if you are carrying a knife, then don't do it. If you feel you need it, get one that doesn't scream "killer wicked sharp with a skull crusher end" but carry one that looks less threatening, like a multi tool or a swiss army knife, etc. 

In our lives, hopefully we don't get into many conflicts, so probably the most danger the knife in our pocket poses is the danger to our own fingers.


----------



## lklawson

wushuguy said:


> If one is really worried about how people would look at you if you are carrying a knife, then don't do it. If you feel you need it, get one that doesn't scream "killer wicked sharp with a skull crusher end"


Reasonable advice. However, the counter-case is made that it doesn't matter if your knife is marketed as "death-squad commando gear" or as "Marry Poppins' Trimming Tool." A Prosecutor with his salt will still present it as a deadly weapon.



> but carry one that looks less threatening, like a multi tool or a swiss army knife, etc.


I disagree. Get one which is serviceable for your intended application. If your application is Self Defense, then understand that Swiss Army Knives and Multi-Tools are notoriously difficult to deploy the blade quickly. It has gotten to a point that at least one Multi-Tool type device has been redesigned to enhance deployment of the blade.

My personal advice is that if you conclude that you need a knife as a tool for Self Defense, then get a serviceable, well designed, fit for the application knife from a reputable manufacturer. If it makes you feel better, get one that doesn't "look" as much like a ninja-death-machine and doesn't have a "made for serial killers" name. But, ultimately, if you deploy a knife for Self Defense, you're deploying a *DEADLY WEAPON*, regardless of what it's named or what it looks like and you'd darn well better be justified in deploying a deadly weapon. I refer the gentle reader, again, to the Four Pillars of Justifiable Deadly Force.


----------



## fightingpower

We're talking about reasonable adults.


Reasonable adults.......do not carry knives!


----------



## elder999

fightingpower said:


> We're talking about reasonable adults.
> 
> 
> Reasonable adults.......do not carry knives!


 

Well, I'm a _usually_ reasonable adult........and I carry a knife.

I have since I was eight. As a seventh generation sailor, a knife is an absolute necessity, and, while I'm pretty far from the ocean most of the time, I still carry a knife. In the course of a day I might use it to open packages, cut ropes or other things, even slice fruit-all things that all of the knives in the OP could be used for. While I haven't _needed_ one for self-defense in a very long time, I have been trained to use one. The one time I could have used one, but was without one (because I was in NYC, and it "could lead to trouble") I wound up making do with a _pen_. Since then, I've rarely been without one, and that was almost 30 years ago........


----------



## jks9199

fightingpower said:


> We're talking about reasonable adults.
> 
> 
> Reasonable adults.......do not carry knives!


I believe I'm generally considered a reasonable person.  And a gentleman.

I tend to carry at least one knife.  Often 2; one general use folding knife, and one multi-tool.

I know quite a few other folk, men and women, who are reasonable and who carry knives.


----------



## Blindside

fightingpower said:


> We're talking about reasonable adults.
> 
> 
> Reasonable adults.......do not carry knives!


 
Maybe not in your suburb. About 25% of the male population of the town I lived in for the past 10 years carried a knife. During hunting season the very common folding knife was supplanted by very common sheath knives. 

Sorry disregard, I just realized I carry both a knife and a multi-tool, I must not be reasonable.


----------



## KenpoTex

fightingpower said:


> We're talking about reasonable adults.
> 
> 
> Reasonable adults.......do not carry knives!



Reasonable adults do not demonize inanimate objects that have many practical uses, only one of which is inflicting damage to another human.


----------



## tellner

Reasonable adults don't define away the opposition by announcing that everyone on the other side isn't a "reasonable adult".


----------



## lklawson

fightingpower said:


> We're talking about reasonable adults.
> 
> 
> Reasonable adults.......do not carry knives!


Ummmm... What?

I'm sorry, but you need to justify that statement.  Why on earth do you think that rReasonable adults wouldn't carry a knife?  Please explain.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## BLACK LION

KenpoTex said:


> Reasonable adults do not demonize inanimate objects that have many practical uses, only one of which is inflicting damage to another human.


very good post



A knife is a labor saving device that any reasonable and responsible adult SHOULD carry.   It has a multitude of uses that do not revolve around killing or maiming or anything related.  It is not a "weapon" for "self defense"....  at least not to this unreasonable adult. I can efffectively deploy it to cut a hanging passenger from a seatbelt just the same as cut throught the subclavian artery on a murderous sociopath. It does what I want when I want...  it doesnt just do it by itself.  I dont wake up everyday thinking about putting my blade into people when I attach it to my belt.  I dont think about anything really. I understand what its for but also understand what it could be used for outside of whats normal or social. 

Yes a knife is a device that gives us access to vital targets within humans and animals  that our bodies alone cannot afford us... Its deployment against man or beast is strictly to take its life force away...  It is not self defense...  it is iminent danger to life and instinctive response to survive... 
the moral-social-legal issue of self defense is long gone and that reasoning is moot.  If a knife is used on another being its for one reason only and self defense is not one of them.  It would never be my argument because there would be no argument.  I do not don a knife or carry knives to kill people... it is not my intent to adorn myself with "weapons" for "self defense"...  my mind and body are my weapons and self defense is only an issue during social conflict in which its much easier to subtract my self or evaporate.    

its not about irrational people  carrying weapons for self defense but rational, responsible people carrying tools with an intimate knowledge of thier usage and boundaries.   
Too often do I see the term self defense used in conjuction with knives and firearms...  you do not take life out of self defense. You take life to take life and rational and responsible people take life so that themselves and others may survive.   Its called preservation.   



forgive my rant, my first post was lost when my internet crashed.


----------



## Rich Parsons

fightingpower said:


> We're talking about reasonable adults.
> 
> 
> Reasonable adults.......do not carry knives!


 
I never claimed to be a reasonable adult. 

I do use reason, and can present points in making an arguement. 

I also do not have offspring so in some cultures I may not be considered an adult, while in others I coudl be considered a senior at my current middle age. 




elder999 said:


> Well, I'm a _usually_ reasonable adult........and I carry a knife.
> 
> I have since I was eight. As a seventh generation sailor, a knife is an absolute necessity, and, while I'm pretty far from the ocean most of the time, I still carry a knife. In the course of a day I might use it to open packages, cut ropes or other things, even slice fruit-all things that all of the knives in the OP could be used for. While I haven't _needed_ one for self-defense in a very long time, I have been trained to use one. The one time I could have used one, but was without one (because I was in NYC, and it "could lead to trouble") I wound up making do with a _pen_. Since then, I've rarely been without one, and that was almost 30 years ago........


 

Elder,

I have been rarely with out one as well. I travel for work on planes. I have traveled around the globe on business as well, asn always check the local laws if possible for knife carry and or posession. 

One might consider that reasonable, and others might think I am just being "RICH.  



jks9199 said:


> I believe I'm generally considered a reasonable person. And a gentleman.
> 
> I tend to carry at least one knife. Often 2; one general use folding knife, and one multi-tool.
> 
> I know quite a few other folk, men and women, who are reasonable and who carry knives.


 
JKS,

While I aspire to be a gentlemen, I will let others determine that based upon my actions. But, I agree that having an item or not having an item would not preclude someone from being a gentlemen or a reasonable person. 

My favorite carry right now "looks" scary. But, once it is explained to those who question, I usually get lots of questions, of styles of blades. 



Blindside said:


> Maybe not in your suburb. About 25% of the male population of the town I lived in for the past 10 years carried a knife. During hunting season the very common folding knife was supplanted by very common sheath knives.
> 
> Sorry disregard, I just realized I carry both a knife and a multi-tool, I must not be reasonable.


 
Blinside, SHHH, We both are not reasonable, but at least we can not be reasonable together. Like reasonable men, we can discuss our points and make a statement and afterwards go drink a beer. 



KenpoTex said:


> Reasonable adults do not demonize inanimate objects that have many practical uses, only one of which is inflicting damage to another human.


 
Hmmm, the object is not the issue? But, but but but, ... , . Ok KT, I cannot disagreenor counter point your reasonable statement. 



tellner said:


> Reasonable adults don't define away the opposition by announcing that everyone on the other side isn't a "reasonable adult".


 
But it is the standard arguement taught today in politics et al, so I can see why it is presented, only like you find the same issues. 


lklawson said:


> Ummmm... What?
> 
> I'm sorry, but you need to justify that statement. Why on earth do you think that rReasonable adults wouldn't carry a knife? Please explain.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 

fightingpower,

I have been told reasonable adults do not practice martial arts. You do. Are you reasonable? 

I have been told that reasonable people do not .... 
Are you reasonable? 

Perception, understanding, culture, morals, ethics, and personal experience all help us define ourselves, but broad terms used in general by public are much harder to define, for so many people define it to their small sub group and then apply it to the rest of the population. 

That would be like say 1, 2, & 3 are all prime so all numbers are prime.


----------



## lklawson

Rich Parsons said:


> I have been told reasonable adults do not practice martial arts. You do. Are you reasonable?


Slowly-by-slowly.  I'm getting to that.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## KenpoGuy21

Just wondering what you guys thought about the JIM WAGNER REALITY BASED BLADE (SERRATIONS)

http://www.jimwagnerrealitybased.com/homelinkboker.html

http://store.jimwagnerrealitybased.com/jimwagnerrealitybasedbladeserrations.aspx

This knife looks cool and I like the false pen tip since I will be wearing it with slacks most of the time.

Thoughts?


----------



## seasoned

looks reasonable to me.


----------



## Carol

Personally I think $89.95 is a bit much for 440C knife made in Taiwan.

Be careful with serrated blades.  They are extremely difficult to sharpen and have a tendency to get snagged on whatever is being cut.

But if you'r primarily interested in how it looks it may serve your purpose well.


----------



## lklawson

KenpoGuy21 said:


> Just wondering what you guys thought about the JIM WAGNER REALITY BASED BLADE (SERRATIONS)
> 
> http://www.jimwagnerrealitybased.com/homelinkboker.html
> 
> http://store.jimwagnerrealitybased.com/jimwagnerrealitybasedbladeserrations.aspx
> 
> This knife looks cool and I like the false pen tip since I will be wearing it with slacks most of the time.
> 
> Thoughts?


If you want cool looking, buy a nice pattern welded ("Damascus") blade.  They're absolutely *beautiful*.  If you want function, then define your function.

This particular knife looks to be good in the thrust but, because of the shape of the point, concave serrated "inner edge," and lack of a cutting "belly" it looks to be an underperformer in slicing style cuts.

Plus, the fact that it has two "blood groves" (I kid you not, that's what the Copy say) some red flags are waving at me.  Why the heck do you need fullers on a knife only a couple of inches long and weighing only a couple of ounces?

"Gladius Tip"????  The tip profile is only vaguely similar to a gladius tip due to the fact that Mr. Wagner's design isn't symmetric.

Same with a lot of the other "design features."

Buy the knife if you want, I'm sure it will function as a knife and thrusts quite well.  I think I can be just as effective with my trusty old Schrade SW7 at a fraction of the cost.

Just looks way over hyped to me.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## tellner

As an engineering type, my first question is always *
"What problem are you trying to solve?"*

The next one is *
"Is the problem real, and does it need to be solved?"*

Only then *
"What would solve it?"*

Finding "solutions" and looking for things to point them at is usually the wrong way to do things.

As Carol and Kirk have pointed out the problem you are solving here is more related to image than safety. There isn't anything wrong with that as long as you're being honest with yourself. And it's less expensive than an SUV or a closet full of shoes and handbags.


----------



## KenpoGuy21

Great feedback about the JIM WAGNER REALITY BASED BLADE. THANKS.

I was mainly going to use it for thrusting (if needed). I want to carry it on me at all times while riding the train or walking the city streets at night (no joke). I'm a Kempo Black belt and I've be stabbed 4 times (not bragging, just a fact). I just want to carry a knife so if it (getting jumped a knife point) ever happens again, it will be an even fight. Trust me, I don't look for trouble sometime it just can't be avoided. The reason I was concerned about the look was ONLY because of the false pen tip which would work well in a pair of slacks that I'm normally wearing when riding the train home from work.

I found it with a plain edge on another site for $50. What do you think.

Here is a link to the plain edge version maybe this would be better for my needs. The price on the link its higher then I found it elsewhere so disregard that, think of it as a $50 knife. 

Now what do you think? 

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

JIM WAGNER REALITY BASED BLADE (PLAIN EDGE)
http://store.jimwagnerrealitybased.com/jimwagnerrealitybasedbladeplainedge.aspx


----------



## KenpoTex

There are better knives out there for the money...look at the Spyderco Endura, Delica, or Centofante, the Benchmades, particularly the Griptilian, or something from SOG or Cold Steel.


----------



## Carol

Ouch.  Very sorry to hear about those encounters KenpoGuy.  :asian:

I agree with KenpoTex.  If you go with one of the other knives....the Spydercos in particular can be found for around $50, you're getting a better blade for the money, with better steel.  Personally, I carry a Spyderco Delica with me and I've used it for cutting many different things (I moved recently so my blade got a solid workout...lol) and it held its edge phenomenally well.  

In addition, the Delica (3" blade) and the Endura (4" blade) also have a trainer version available if you want to practice safely. There are many Kenpo techniques that adapt easily to the blade.  

Truthfully, I'm not sure if the false pen tip is going to disguise the blade that well.  I could be wrong, but I think most folks that know what a folder looks like are going to recognize a clip that size on someone's pocket.   If your state laws permit, you may want to consider keeping the blade completely in your pocket.

Good luck and stay safe out there.


----------



## BLACK LION

Those boker knives look cool but are faily cheapo...  some can be had for as little as 5.00 and they remind me of  those m-tech brand blades you find in the sporting good stores. 

there are better knives out there for 50.00 and sometimes less...  cold steel- sog- kershaw- crkt-   

I found a kelley mccann crucible by blackhawk for 75% off at galls... cost me 54.00 and normally runs 200.00....     

shop around


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Benchmade is definitely a way to go.


----------



## lklawson

KenpoGuy21 said:


> I found it with a plain edge on another site for $50. What do you think.


I still don't like the concave inner edge but if you're just looking for a thruster that should be irrelevant. 

Personally, for a thrusting knife I'd go with a classic Stiletto profile blade but you have to work harder to find one that's quick opening and still legal (I assume that your location, like most, "Automatic Knives" are illegal).  They thrust like nobody's business and still have a functional edge (though not a strong a "cutter" as something with a lot of belly).

Again, if your desired function is specifically to the thrust, then this knife should perform well enough for what you want.

Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk


----------



## BLACK LION

what about the steve corkum first strike from crkt??? outstnading blade at discounted price.  I carry one of these daily


----------



## lklawson

BLACK LION said:


> what about the steve corkum first strike from crkt??? outstnading blade at discounted price.  I carry one of these daily


It has the advantage of being a fixed blade but has the disadvantage of being a fixed blade.

Personally, I hate the "american tanto" point.  But they're string thrusters.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## sgtmac_46

tellner said:


> As an engineering type, my first question is always *
> "What problem are you trying to solve?"*
> 
> The next one is *
> "Is the problem real, and does it need to be solved?"*
> 
> Only then *
> "What would solve it?"*
> 
> Finding "solutions" and looking for things to point them at is usually the wrong way to do things.
> 
> As Carol and Kirk have pointed out the problem you are solving here is more related to image than safety. There isn't anything wrong with that as long as you're being honest with yourself. And it's less expensive than an SUV or a closet full of shoes and handbags.



Agreed......I tend to have the same view.  There are way too many solutions without a problem.


----------



## sgtmac_46

I'm a big Benchmade fan for folders.......and CRKT knives are excellent for the money.

My favorite carry folder is the Benchmade Presidio 5000.......which, unfortunately, isn't civilian legal for the idiot reason it's an auto........but I do love that knife!  http://www.benchmade.com/products/product_detail.aspx?model=5000

They do make a non-auto version called the 520.



As has probably been noted, folders are a compromise blade......except for concealment, a fixed blade is superior.  As serious fixed blade utility/self-defense knives go (while still being relatively concealable) I like the Kershaw ZT. http://www.kershawknives.com/productdetails.php?id=7&brand=zt

Of course if concealability isn't an issue.........just go buy a Cold Steal Trailmaster.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Here's my daily carry blade.  It's perfect for me.  Yes, it is small.  Doesn't matter - the design makes it an excellent choice for opening things.

I can easily walk in dark areas with it open and in my hand - and nearly invisible with my hand turned in.  It doesn't telegraph.  The main drawback is it has no reach - you must close in to use it.  However, you can hold and use it as if you were punching, parrying, or blocking - only minor changes in technique make a block into a long ripping cut.  The parrot beak is wicked, I assure you.  The angle of the tip ensures that a 'swiping' motion puts the tip of the point at the correct angle for entry into whatever you intend to cut - unlike say a box cutter that uses a razor blade (used in the 9/11 hijackings) and requires an awkward angle to the wrist to bring the incising point into use.

http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=17







I've been a Spyderco fan for decades - but then, I grew up in Golden, Colorado - home to Spyderco.


----------



## sgtmac_46

Bill Mattocks said:


> Here's my daily carry blade.  It's perfect for me.  Yes, it is small.  Doesn't matter - the design makes it an excellent choice for opening things.
> 
> I can easily walk in dark areas with it open and in my hand - and nearly invisible with my hand turned in.  It doesn't telegraph.  The main drawback is it has no reach - you must close in to use it.  However, you can hold and use it as if you were punching, parrying, or blocking - only minor changes in technique make a block into a long ripping cut.  The parrot beak is wicked, I assure you.  The angle of the tip ensures that a 'swiping' motion puts the tip of the point at the correct angle for entry into whatever you intend to cut - unlike say a box cutter that uses a razor blade (used in the 9/11 hijackings) and requires an awkward angle to the wrist to bring the incising point into use.
> 
> http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=17
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been a Spyderco fan for decades - but then, I grew up in Golden, Colorado - home to Spyderco.



Very decent choice.....small and unobtrustive yet effective design.

question......are the grips prone to getting slippery?


----------



## Bill Mattocks

sgtmac_46 said:


> Very decent choice.....small and unobtrustive yet effective design.
> 
> question......are the grips prone to getting slippery?



Yes, they are.  However, the grip I've adopted is to wrap my hand completely around the knife, making a fist.  No problems then.

Given a choice, I would have preferred a no-slip grip, and a color other than shiny steel, but this was a gift, and as it turns out, a really good one.  My previous knife was a Spyderco 'CoPilot' which is a bit larger, similar design, but with a serrated blade.  I think I like the wicked parrot bill design even better.  The CoPilot would be great as a rescue knife - it can go through webbing like seatbelts like a hot knife through butter.


----------



## sgtmac_46

Bill Mattocks said:


> Yes, they are. However, the grip I've adopted is to wrap my hand completely around the knife, making a fist. No problems then.
> 
> Given a choice, I would have preferred a no-slip grip, and a color other than shiny steel, but this was a gift, and as it turns out, a really good one. My previous knife was a Spyderco 'CoPilot' which is a bit larger, similar design, but with a serrated blade. I think I like the wicked parrot bill design even better. The CoPilot would be great as a rescue knife - it can go through webbing like seatbelts like a hot knife through butter.


 
Yeah, it looks like it could benefit by the addition of some kind of rough textured surface on the handles.......but not an insurmountable issue as you point out.


----------



## lklawson

Bill Mattocks said:


> Given a choice, I would have preferred a no-slip grip,


I have friends who apply the non-skid stick-on applications to tools and knives that don't have enough "grip" for them.  Kinda has a sandpaper/sharkskin texture.  They get it from shoe stores (or the shoe section at the "big box").  I've never tried it, but they claim it works a treat.  Simple, cheap, effective... What's not to like?

http://www.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=4072476

There's also "tool dip" that you can buy at hardware stores.  You can dip the handle (I'd not recommend it) or just paint it onto the surfaces you want.



> and a color other than shiny steel,


How 'bout a Bluing?  The hard way, you could disassemble and do a true Bluing (you know, if you're masochistic), or you could use a Bluing compound and do a simple paint on or dip. 

http://www.gunaccessories.com/Hoppes/BluingFinishing.asp
http://www.riflemagazine.com/catalog/detail.cfm?ProductID=356

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

More bluing:

http://www.blackbearsportinggoods.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=483&click=324

The "Sight Black" might also be useful for your purposes.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## CanFightIt

TBO-TECH                       Self Defense Products carries a variety                       of knifes with high quality yet                 inexpensive.

http://www.tbotech.com/knifes.htm


----------



## Bill Mattocks

lklawson said:


> More bluing:
> 
> http://www.blackbearsportinggoods.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=483&click=324
> 
> The "Sight Black" might also be useful for your purposes.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I could be mistaken, but I don't think you can blue stainless steel.  I'm ok with it the way it is, actually.  It was a gift, after all.


----------



## lklawson

Bill Mattocks said:


> I could be mistaken, but I don't think you can blue stainless steel.


Well, I'm not sure.  There's what the market copy says... and then there's real life.  



> I'm ok with it the way it is, actually.  It was a gift, after all.


Fair enough.

Personally, I'm not convinced it's that big a deal anyway.

I might, just for my own entertainment, try cold bluing some knife blades just to see.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## tellner

Proof that neither Bill nor Mac suffers from "size issues".


----------



## Monadnock

I like the Emerson folders.


----------



## sgtmac_46

tellner said:


> Proof that neither Bill nor Mac suffers from "size issues".


Some people are overcome by 'anxiety' that the job requires a bigger tool readily available......the reality is that most jobs can be accomplished quite nicely the tool at hand with a little skill.......one has to have faith in their blade, or it will droop.


----------



## Deaf Smith

Well, if I can't get a Hanzo blade, I prefer the K-bar for the fixed blade and a cut down Cold Steel Tanto (below 5.5 inchs here in Texas) for the small blade to carry.

Yes, I have a few folders, Spydercos, but I really perfer a fixed blade knife.

Deaf


----------



## K831

Monadnock said:


> I like the Emerson folders.



Plus one on the Emersons. Their wave opening feature is awesome. I can deploy their folders faster than any assisted knife I have ever had, without the worry of a spring going down. 

They also make a model that has nearly everything I like in a knife; Their CQC 11 has a recurve blade, spear point, ergonomic handle (in both short and long held position), forward thumb ramp. It is very balanced, the point is centered with the entire length of the knife. 

Emerson makes only one fixed blade (the PUK) but it is stellar as well.


----------



## KenpoTex

The Emerson designs are nice but I can't get over the liner-lock thing.  The wave on the Spydercos works better anyway, IMO...more positive, consistent opening due to the larger hook.


----------



## K831

KenpoTex said:


> The Emerson designs are nice but I can't get over the liner-lock thing.  The wave on the Spydercos works better anyway, IMO...more positive, consistent opening due to the larger hook.



I was worried about the liner lock at first. Not my favorite feature, but it has locked in solid so far, with some pretty hard use. We'll see I guess. 

I really like the BM 520.. I haven't owned a Spyderco as I have had a hard time finding a blade style/handle that I like. Suggestions?

Also, anyone use and of the Kershaw ZT line? Other than looking a bit large, I like what I see.


----------



## BLACK LION

K831 said:


> I was worried about the liner lock at first. Not my favorite feature, but it has locked in solid so far, with some pretty hard use. We'll see I guess.
> 
> I really like the BM 520.. I haven't owned a Spyderco as I have had a hard time finding a blade style/handle that I like. Suggestions?
> 
> Also, anyone use and of the Kershaw ZT line? Other than looking a bit large, I like what I see.


 
The kershaw zero tolerance are good knives. I like kershaw.  
Benchmade has a good fixed blade line as well.  

I tend to choose a combination of fixed and folding knives to carry with each other.    I always have a fixed blade, even if visibility is an issue I switch to a 3" Crucible fixed blade in a kydex holster on a nech chain


----------



## sgtmac_46

K831 said:


> I was worried about the liner lock at first. Not my favorite feature, but it has locked in solid so far, with some pretty hard use. We'll see I guess.
> 
> I really like the BM 520.. I haven't owned a Spyderco as I have had a hard time finding a blade style/handle that I like. Suggestions?
> 
> Also, anyone use and of the Kershaw ZT line? Other than looking a bit large, I like what I see.



The Kershaw ZT is well balanced and practical.  I like it as a self defense/utility blade.


----------



## Eso1

What about the Cold Steel Micro Recon 1?, i live in NYC and the knife laws seem to be catered towards accusing law abiding citizens of carrying "Gravity knives" and not the criminals that buy easily flickable, rapidly deploying crappy knives from local hardware or 99cent stores.


----------



## vincymull

Unless you have extraordinary training, no knife is suitable for self defense.


----------



## Dirty Dog

vincymull said:


> Unless you have extraordinary training, no knife is suitable for self defense.



This is patently incorrect. Using a knife effectively requires very little training. Yes, there are entire arts devoted to their use, but at it's root, using a knife for self defense boils down to "hold it by the dull end and hit them with the sharp end".
Without taking anything away from the arts devoted to knife fighting, I honestly think most people can learn to use a knife effectively in a few hours. It may not be elegant (neither is basic empty hand self-defense) and it may not be effective against an opponent with more training (as is true of [insert empty hand system here]), but it will be effective.


----------



## jks9199

Dirty Dog said:


> This is patently incorrect. Using a knife effectively requires very little training. Yes, there are entire arts devoted to their use, but at it's root, using a knife for self defense boils down to "hold it by the dull end and hit them with the sharp end".
> Without taking anything away from the arts devoted to knife fighting, I honestly think most people can learn to use a knife effectively in a few hours. It may not be elegant (neither is basic empty hand self-defense) and it may not be effective against an opponent with more training (as is true of [insert empty hand system here]), but it will be effective.



Or, as someone once said... "the pointy end goes in the other man"

[video=youtube_share;29FXtcCY8C0]http://youtu.be/29FXtcCY8C0[/video]


----------



## Blindside

vincymull said:


> Unless you have extraordinary training, no knife is suitable for self defense.



I am sure the wife here had extraordinary training.
It?s him or us! Husband, wife fight intruder to the death | Q13 FOX News


----------



## drop bear

Eso1 said:


> What about the Cold Steel Micro Recon 1?, i live in NYC and the knife laws seem to be catered towards accusing law abiding citizens of carrying "Gravity knives" and not the criminals that buy easily flickable, rapidly deploying crappy knives from local hardware or 99cent stores.




I have the big version and the plus of that knife is the tri lock is supposed to be extra solid. Which for a fighter the issue would be the thing closing on your hand. 

I hand bent a liner lock trainer that way.


----------

