# Judo or Wrestling?



## whitebeltforever (Feb 1, 2017)

How do i know whih one is more suited to me?
Im quite a big girl. I am reasonably strong. And i dont have too many issues with speed  (used to do salsa). But im not the best at cardio... i get puffed out quite quickly in most activities. I love bjj and muay thai so far and i just want to learn one more m.a... 
Should i do judo or wrestling? 

I have read on other posts judo these days is so restricted by fed laws that its become wrestling with a gi... and iv read that wrestling is easier to learn.

I would like to do the one thats easy to learn when compared to the other, and the one that will be better in a self defense situation. 
Any suggestions? 

Thank u!


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## Paul_D (Feb 1, 2017)

whitebeltforever said:


> How do i know whih one is more suited to me?


The only way to know that is to give them both a try.



whitebeltforever said:


> the one that will be better in a self defense situation.


My opinion on that has always been to do the one which you most enjoy.  That way you are more likely to stick with it, and therefore become good at it.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 1, 2017)

whitebeltforever said:


> But im not the best at cardio


Both Judo and wrestling will build your cardio quite a bit.



whitebeltforever said:


> I have read on other posts judo these days is so restricted by fed laws


Unless Australia has some unusual laws I don't know about, Judo is not restricted by law. The organizations which regulate the international sport of Judo have made a number of changes over the years, some of which are not always popular with practitioners. If you train at a school which is more oriented towards self-defense or the traditional art, then the latest tournament rules will be less of a concern for you.



whitebeltforever said:


> become wrestling with a gi



Judo _is_ a form of jacketed wrestling, one of many throughout the world. Nevertheless it has unique characteristics of its own (although the techniques can all be found in other arts).



whitebeltforever said:


> iv read that wrestling is easier to learn



Nope. I'd say they're equally challenging. However the two arts traditionally have different approaches to teaching and training, so you may find that one fits your style of learning better.



whitebeltforever said:


> the one that will be better in a self defense situation.



Both arts can be used very effectively in self-defense. However both arts are more commonly taught from a sport perspective than from a self-defense one. That means you will likely have to do the work of figuring out how the techniques have to be tweaked for a self-defense context.

I will add that both arts are excellent complements to your BJJ and will make you a better BJJ practitioner.

If you have access to instruction in both arts, I would try them both and see which class clicks with you the best.


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## Steve (Feb 1, 2017)

Depends on what kind of wrestling.  But either would be great, although I'm a fan of working with a gi.  I think it's more realistic, as people don't generally walk around in a rash guard or a singlet.


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## JR 137 (Feb 1, 2017)

I wrestled for quite some time and coached it.  I don't have any Judo experience, so take what I say about Judo as speculation...

Both should give you an equally good workout, if the intensity of training is equal, ie how much time is spent "on the mat" vs instructional type stuff.

The point of wrestling is to get your opponent on their back and pin them, or to score more points.  There's no "finishing them;" only pinning them.

Judo's emphasis is a finishing throw, joint lock, or choke.  Yes there are points, but that's not my perceived ultimate goal.

Judo will have a syllabus and a somewhat rigid structure to advancing.  Wrestling will have a loose structure to advancing. 

Wrestling can be easily adapted to "the streets."  Throwing someone onto the pavement is going to hurt, regardless of it's a judo or wrestling throw.  It's easy to make wrestling holds/moves painful to an opponent.  Judo's holds are designed to be painful, not to get someone onto their back for a pin fall.

Judo and wrestling throws may look different and be named differently, but the principles are the same - it's body mechanics and the feeling of push/pull that makes a throw truly successful, not muscling it.

Wrestling has weight classes.  Judo competition does too.  If you're training non-competitively, judo classes may have you train with a lot of different weight people.  Wrestlers who weigh 100 lbs don't wrestle people who weigh 150 very often.

It depends on what tickles your fancy more.  Watch a few sessions of each and decide.  I haven't been around too many judoka, but the ones I have been around were just as tough as any wrestler I've been around.  There's no hiding in wrestling nor judo.  You can throw people or you can't.  You can submit/choke people or you can't.  You can take people down and pin them or you can't.  There's really nothing hypothetical like "I could have knife handed him in the throat, but I'm not allowed to as there is in many striking arts.  Disclaimer- I'm a karate guy, so I'm not bashing.


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## drop bear (Feb 1, 2017)

Wrestle if you can find a good club.  In Australia it is so rare it is like a super power. 

Cardio is not something you have or dont by the way. 

You have control over that.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 1, 2017)

Steve said:


> I'm a fan of working with a gi. I think it's more realistic, as people don't generally walk around in a rash guard or a singlet


I think it's a wash. People usually wear clothes, but it's not always the kind that you can use as an effective handle. That's why I'm a fan of training both gi and no-gi.



JR 137 said:


> The point of wrestling is to get your opponent on their back and pin them, or to score more points. There's no "finishing them;" only pinning them.
> 
> Judo's emphasis is a finishing throw, joint lock, or choke. Yes there are points, but that's not my perceived ultimate goal.



Just wanted to point out that Judo also allows you to win by pin, although it has to be held longer than in wrestling. Other than that, your summation is pretty accurate.


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## marques (Feb 1, 2017)

From my short experience, I find Wrestling more physical than Judo. Perhaps Wrestling is easier to learn. Perhaps Judo is more compatible with BJJ...

For self-defence... there are too many variables. Judo and Wrestling are more than two things, within two names. Both may be very effective (especially given you are training striking elsewhere).

I would choose Judo because it is more technical and more gentle to the body. (But in your place, I would try Wrestling, too, if there is a handy gym).


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 1, 2017)

If your goal is to integrate the striking art and the grappling art, the no-gi wrestling is more suitable than the gi Judo.

IMO, the "stiff arm - dancing with your opponent" is a bad habit to have in the gi environment.

After all, if you can use "single leg" to take down everybody on this planet, what else do you need?


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## JR 137 (Feb 1, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> After all, if you can use "single leg" to take down everybody on this planet, what else do you need?



A way to keep them from getting back up.


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## JR 137 (Feb 1, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Just wanted to point out that Judo also allows you to win by pin, although it has to be held longer than in wrestling. Other than that, your summation is pretty accurate.



I didn't know that.  Thanks, Tony.

I'm assuming I'm wrong, but I'll ask anyway...

Is the pin basically holding an ippon throw?  I've seen throws that commentators have said it would've been an ippon if the thrower held it (or stuck the landing, so to speak) for a bit longer.  Probably two different things, but I like new information.  And I'm too lazy to google Judo rules.


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## JR 137 (Feb 1, 2017)

marques said:


> Perhaps Wrestling is easier to learn.
> 
> Perhaps Judo is more compatible with BJJ...
> 
> I would choose Judo because it is more technical and more gentle to the body. (But in your place, I would try Wrestling, too, if there is a handy gym).



I can't cut and paste multiple quotes, so please bear with me...

I've seen a lot of Judo instructional stuff (I guess that means I know what I'm talking about ).  I don't think one looks much easier to learn than another.  Judo may have more techniques (?), being a long-term and formal structured curriculum.  I'd imagine that once you get past the basics and start developing deeper strategy, both would be equally difficult, as would any MA.

BJJ came from Judo, and I've seen sources state Brazilian Judo would've been a more appropriate name for the art.

I don't know if Judo is "more technical," but I've seen Judo teachers (again, I'm a YouTube warrior right now) explain techniques far more thoroughly than wrestling coaches.  Perhaps the perfectionist Japanese mentality (without stereotyping)?  Wrestling coaches will more often briefly explain a technique, have you do it a few times until you've got the basics of it, then leave you to practice it with a partner over and over.

As far as more gentle on the body... no submissions in wrestling.  How hard you're thrown is up to your partner(s) and how well you land.  The better the wrestler, the more control in the throw; they want you where they want you so they don't have to work as hard to pin you.  Some advanced wrestlers will throw you "harder," but they're usually intentionally doing that.

Take it all with a grain of salt.  I spent exactly 2 hours in Judo one night with a friend during open-mat.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 1, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I didn't know that.  Thanks, Tony.
> 
> I'm assuming I'm wrong, but I'll ask anyway...
> 
> Is the pin basically holding an ippon throw?  I've seen throws that commentators have said it would've been an ippon if the thrower held it (or stuck the landing, so to speak) for a bit longer.  Probably two different things, but I like new information.  And I'm too lazy to google Judo rules.


Okay, I need to clarify the terminology a bit. Ippon refers to a single action which wins the match instantly so it doesn't have to go to points. A throw which lands the throwee cleanly and forcefully directly on their back is ippon. A submission which gets the tap is ippon. Pinning the opponent continuously for a set period of time (not sure of the current rule, it used to be 25 seconds) is ippon. The pin doesn't have to come directly off of a throw. One difference from wrestling (besides the duration) is that if the bottom person can catch the top person in any sort of guard or half guard then the pin is considered broken.


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## JR 137 (Feb 1, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Okay, I need to clarify the terminology a bit. Ippon refers to a single action which wins the match instantly so it doesn't have to go to points. A throw which lands the throwee cleanly and forcefully directly on their back is ippon. A submission which gets the tap is ippon. Pinning the opponent continuously for a set period of time (not sure of the current rule, it used to be 25 seconds) is ippon. The pin doesn't have to come directly off of a throw. One difference from wrestling (besides the duration) is that if the bottom person can catch the top person in any sort of guard or half guard then the pin is considered broken.



Thanks again, Tony.  I thought ippon was strictly a "killing" throw.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 1, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I don't know if Judo is "more technical," but I've seen Judo teachers (again, I'm a YouTube warrior right now) explain techniques far more thoroughly than wrestling coaches. Perhaps the perfectionist Japanese mentality (without stereotyping)? Wrestling coaches will more often briefly explain a technique, have you do it a few times until you've got the basics of it, then leave you to practice it with a partner over and over.


I think this is a cultural difference in teaching. At the highest levels, wrestling is just as technical as Judo. However Judo instruction typically starts with attention to the subtle details of technique right from the beginning. I didn't wrestle in school, but from what I've been told, wrestlers typically start out with a few fundamentals and a ton of physical and mental conditioning. If they stick with it long enough to reach the higher levels, then they start learning the more technical details.


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## drop bear (Feb 2, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I can't cut and paste multiple quotes, so please bear with me...
> 
> I've seen a lot of Judo instructional stuff (I guess that means I know what I'm talking about ).  I don't think one looks much easier to learn than another.  Judo may have more techniques (?), being a long-term and formal structured curriculum.  I'd imagine that once you get past the basics and start developing deeper strategy, both would be equally difficult, as would any MA.
> 
> ...



There kind of is submissions in wrestling. you just cant tap.


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## KangTsai (Feb 2, 2017)

Steve said:


> Depends on what kind of wrestling.  But either would be great, although I'm a fan of working with a gi.  I think it's more realistic, as people don't generally walk around in a rash guard or a singlet.


The jackets are at a borderline to being realistic I think. General dayclothes are never that thick and ropey like the average gi, making it possible, yet more difficult to use jacket techniques on them.


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## KangTsai (Feb 2, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think this is a cultural difference in teaching. At the highest levels, wrestling is just as technical as Judo. However Judo instruction typically starts with attention to the subtle details of technique right from the beginning. I didn't wrestle in school, but from what I've been told, wrestlers typically start out with a few fundamentals and a ton of physical and mental conditioning. If they stick with it long enough to reach the higher levels, then they start learning the more technical details.


Mainly because it's taught as a competitive form from the get-go to relatively young kids. I wish wrestling was a more popular (or even existing) school sport here; I would've competed without second thought.


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## whitebeltforever (Feb 2, 2017)

hi everyone thank u so so much for all your insight and really experienced advice. i will try and reply to you all individually later... just wanted to share first... 
i just got back from my first wrestling class! it was HARRRRRD .....   i mean.. i never knew it was SO much gymnastics!! the warm up nearly killed me... cartwheels, shooting forward rolls, backward rolls on the head!? and forward and backward handstand flips?!!? lol ... i felt like a panda!! an old old panda... lol

so the actual class made me laugh so hard i couldnt breathe properly... i dont know why i just really find the grappling type arts very fun and very funny.... i mean i LOVE them SO SO much... but they are so funny because you are in these "three stooges" type positions... 

anyway, we learnt 2 moves. and practiced lots. the teacher didn't really say too much about me. but i accidentally scored 2 points! and i dont remember how! lolll .....apart from that i really dont know what i dont know yet... (i have reached a point in my bjj to know that i dont know alot at all) it was just so tiring... i liked that i was allowed to use my size and strength (im 5'6 but 85kgs/190lbs and a lifter)... i was exhausted after a real wrestling practice of 2 mins tho... and did not last another 4mins. i gave myself permission to sit out of it in the end because i know that if i push i will injure myself as i hav done so so many times before (also have systemic lupus a life long autoimmune disease and 3 months out from breast cancer treatments). 

i liked it except the insane warm up!! does judo have these warmups?! i will try my best to go to a judo class this sat or next sat... i liked that in tnite's wrestling class i understood what the teacher was doing... even tho it took a few times before i got my head around the first thing he taught which was ... i forget the name... but you pull the arm towards you adn somehow get behind the person etc. 

it was halarious as i was hopping around on one leg trying to not get taken down.. and even more halariousous when my guy was laughing at me laughing so much that i couldnt breathe... 

i hav no idea how i will like judo... so will still hav to come back here and report... 
one thing i noticed tho is that i was very afraid to do those hand and headstand flips even tho they are over another person... i was really scared to go over. even as a yoga teacher in my previous life, i could never ever do the headstand without a wall or the handstand for that matter... not sure how i'd go being thrown in judo style.... 

i will update again after judo...


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## JR 137 (Feb 2, 2017)

whitebeltforever said:


> hi everyone thank u so so much for all your insight and really experienced advice. i will try and reply to you all individually later... just wanted to share first...
> i just got back from my first wrestling class! it was HARRRRRD .....   i mean.. i never knew it was SO much gymnastics!! the warm up nearly killed me... cartwheels, shooting forward rolls, backward rolls on the head!? and forward and backward handstand flips?!!? lol ... i felt like a panda!! an old old panda... lol
> 
> so the actual class made me laugh so hard i couldnt breathe properly... i dont know why i just really find the grappling type arts very fun and very funny.... i mean i LOVE them SO SO much... but they are so funny because you are in these "three stooges" type positions...
> ...



Thanks for bringing back some great memories


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2017)

Steve said:


> Depends on what kind of wrestling.  But either would be great, although I'm a fan of working with a gi.  I think it's more realistic, as people don't generally walk around in a rash guard or a singlet.


Interesting viewpoint. I've always trained in a gi, and looked at where it's unrealistic (in the South, lots of t-shirts, so can't depend upon using the fabric for leverage, etc.), but there is the other side. You do have to be aware of how your own clothing could be used against you (and a gi is pretty near "worst case" for this, so a good training tool), and any kind of jacket or heavy shirt starts to give you many of the benefits of a gi, as far as leverage and firm purchase.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I didn't know that.  Thanks, Tony.
> 
> I'm assuming I'm wrong, but I'll ask anyway...
> 
> Is the pin basically holding an ippon throw?  I've seen throws that commentators have said it would've been an ippon if the thrower held it (or stuck the landing, so to speak) for a bit longer.  Probably two different things, but I like new information.  And I'm too lazy to google Judo rules.


Tony's explanation is much clearer than reading the official rules would have been, anyway, JR.


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## PiedmontChun (Feb 2, 2017)

whitebeltforever said:


> hi everyone thank u so so much for all your insight and really experienced advice. i will try and reply to you all individually later... just wanted to share first...
> i just got back from my first wrestling class! it was HARRRRRD .....   i mean.. i never knew it was SO much gymnastics!! the warm up nearly killed me... cartwheels, shooting forward rolls, backward rolls on the head!? and forward and backward handstand flips?!!? lol ... i felt like a panda!! an old old panda... lol
> 
> so the actual class made me laugh so hard i couldnt breathe properly... i dont know why i just really find the grappling type arts very fun and very funny.... i mean i LOVE them SO SO much... but they are so funny because you are in these "three stooges" type positions...
> ...



Judo definitely has conditioning and cardio, but it can vary on the club and school (and maybe the physicality of the students). I started Judo recently, and its normal for us to stretch a good 10 minutes to begin class, do various breakfalls across the mat, shrimp on our backs across the mat, before getting into any specific instruction. Often class ends with some kind of cardio finisher. Working on techniques while moving around the mat with a partner (versus static) can be tiring. Judo can have people of all different ages and sizes though, so obviously some "go harder" than others. I find it to be a good workout but manageable, even if you aren't a super athlete (which I am certainly not).


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## wingchun100 (Feb 2, 2017)

whitebeltforever said:


> How do i know whih one is more suited to me?
> Im quite a big girl. I am reasonably strong. And i dont have too many issues with speed  (used to do salsa). But im not the best at cardio... i get puffed out quite quickly in most activities. I love bjj and muay thai so far and i just want to learn one more m.a...
> Should i do judo or wrestling?
> 
> ...


 
Even if your cardio is not great now, you will get there. All you have to do is rest when you need it, even if that means 2 minutes into class. Over time you will notice you don't take a break until 4 minutes...then 6...then 10...and so on, until you get to a point where you might not need any at all.


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## marques (Feb 2, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I wrestled for quite some time and coached it.  I don't have any Judo experience, so take what I say about Judo as speculation...
> 
> Both should give you an equally good workout, if the intensity of training is equal, ie how much time is spent "on the mat" vs instructional type stuff.
> 
> ...



I cannot disagree with you.

My Judo comes from my self-defence training and from a few months of jiu-Jitsu. My Wrestling comes from a few months of MMA (which had also striking and BJJ classes, so MMA there was pretty much Wrestling for MMA).

I believe my perception is valid for the experience I had. But no two schools are equal. And none of my training is from a 'pure' Judo or 'pure' Wrestling...


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## JR 137 (Feb 2, 2017)

marques said:


> I cannot disagree with you.
> 
> My Judo comes from my self-defence training and from a few months of jiu-Jitsu. My Wrestling comes from a few months of MMA (which had also striking and BJJ classes, so MMA there was pretty much Wrestling for MMA).
> 
> I believe my perception is valid for the experience I had. But no two schools are equal. And none of my training is from a 'pure' Judo or 'pure' Wrestling...



Every opinion, so long as it's an informed one, is equally valid imo.  Yours is obviously informed.

My wrestling experience is purely competitive wrestling.  Training and coaching.  If I was training or coaching it for MMA, it would probably have different elements to it.  The only wrong approach would be training/coaching for the wrong application.


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## JR 137 (Feb 2, 2017)

@whitebeltforever - what style wrestling was it, freestyle, Greco-Roman, or something else?

Edit: You standing on one leg to avoid takedowns eliminates Greco-Roman from the list.


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## JP3 (Feb 2, 2017)

RE the O/P what I'd recommend is that you find yourself an old-school judo school, which doesnt' focus on going to tournaments. Tournament judo is where all the rules are going wack... find  a Gentleman's Judo program, technically proficient, and a "Who gives a..." attitude about the current tournament rule structure.  That's the ticket, IMO.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 3, 2017)

PiedmontChun said:


> Judo definitely has conditioning and cardio, but it can vary on the club and school (and maybe the physicality of the students). I started Judo recently, and its normal for us to stretch a good 10 minutes to begin class, do various breakfalls across the mat, shrimp on our backs across the mat, before getting into any specific instruction. Often class ends with some kind of cardio finisher. Working on techniques while moving around the mat with a partner (versus static) can be tiring. Judo can have people of all different ages and sizes though, so obviously some "go harder" than others. I find it to be a good workout but manageable, even if you aren't a super athlete (which I am certainly not).



We did some things like that in the Hapkido I studied.  We stretched for at least 10 minutes, then did cardio such as pushups, situps and fist clenching.  It was sort of interspersed.  Then we usually kicked for another 10-20 minutes, which was cardio and kick training, and mind training, then we studied techniques, which often included break falls.  I don't recall doing cool down work after class, but we often did in the TKD I studied many years ago. 

Depending on the amount of students and the amount of time, kicking could be brutal.  We would do all our basic kicks, then often be given a series of kicks, usually at least 10, that we individually were required to perform one right after the other, without making a mistake as to which kick was next in the series, kicking the focus pads as we went.  Then run to the end of the line so we could do it again.  Until you learned to keep all that in your mind, you didn't want to be first in line.    And often after a couple of turns, the series would change. 

Fun, fun, fun.


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## Langenschwert (Feb 4, 2017)

As a baby judoka (three years in now), I say both are well-worth training. I'd be just as happy with wrestling (especially Catch Wrestling) if there was no Judo here. 

It is cool to learn how to use an opponent's clothes against them. Anything you can do to someone in a gi can be applied to a jean jacket or similar if self-defence is a goal. No leg grabs allowed in Judo these days though. We learn them for grading, but they're banned in competition. 

However, neither are really self-defence arts anymore. Finding an old school Judo dojo is a long shot, and finding a HEMA club that does old style kampfringen well is also unlikely. That being said, both Judoka (except me) and wrestlers are tough customers and can usually handle themselves well enough. Don't think that either will help you much against a knife attack though.

And Judo is just a type of wrestling with a stout jacket on. There's some celtic jacket wrestling (Gouren, etc) that is fairly similar. It's not magic, just physics.


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## whitebeltforever (Feb 4, 2017)

hi everyone, i am so grateful for all ur help! i think i have made the decision to actually not go try the judo class... i'm pretty certain i will like wrestling better... i dont think i want to be thrown from that high... lol... i also saw a 1.5 hour typical judo class on youtube where they just set up a camera and let it roll for the whole class and it reminded me very much of my karate days where there's about a million drills, preparations and things... which just doesnt make sense or work for my style of learning. and i know that someone here said (and i will reply individually) that in wrestling the learning style is kind of more you learn a few moves then lots of practice with less detailed technical explainations? i prefer that i think... and i really have alot of trouble with anything that coordinates the upper body/and limbs. in karate i couldn't really even get the basic blocks. i can maybe remember 1? and that was less than 2 years ago and i trained for around 3-4 months. i also don't want to be too straight and high up like alot of you have mentioned... i will def i think have trouble with the wrestling flips... but i'm not really wanting to train at any sort of competitive level. i also get the feeling that its slightly more casual learning culture in wrestling? like some of you have said about the japanese styles' culture being a little more ridgid?

i'm pretty sure it was freestyle wrestling i did the other night. i really dont know how i will survive the warmups but the actual class content was more than managable.

i am also a bit overwhelmed at the amount of things that i'm trying to do at once. bjj, muay thai, wrestling, weights... and i can kinda only do one thing per day and i need about at least 2 -3 days rest so i am running out of energy and time to try out new classes like the judo one at the other gym... i always hav this need to try everything before i "buy" but this time i'm really not sure if that's entirely neccesary? especially with so many of you saying that they are so similar? when i watched the 1.5 hour class on youtube i remember thinking that class just looks no fun at all... untill maybe the last 15mins... i'm sure every dojo is diff... but i think like many of you say, i will get lots of benefits if i do either.

so ...yeah i think i will stick with the wrestling! thanks SO SO much everyone and pls continue the conversation if you like   i always feel so lucky i found this group where i can access so many expert advice at my fingertips!!!!! thankuthankuuuu!


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## whitebeltforever (Feb 4, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> The only way to know that is to give them both a try.
> 
> thanks for your reply!
> and yes i agree... but at the same time i hav decided that maybe i dont need to try everything first... as i usually do... and then i wear myself out... lol  pls see my latest group reply... but i saw a whole class on youtube and decided judo isnt as enjoyable as wrestling for me... so will giv wrestling a try
> ...


absolutely agree! if its no fun i wont do it x)


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## whitebeltforever (Feb 4, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Thanks for bringing back some great memories



thanks for your reply! pls see my latest group reply...  
n haha ur welcome...  i think wrestling is heaps fun so i am gona stick with that!!! x)


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## whitebeltforever (Feb 4, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Both Judo and wrestling will build your cardio quite a bit.
> 
> thanks for your reply! pls see my latest group reply...
> 
> ...


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## whitebeltforever (Feb 4, 2017)

Steve said:


> Depends on what kind of wrestling.  But either would be great, although I'm a fan of working with a gi.  I think it's more realistic, as people don't generally walk around in a rash guard or a singlet.


 
thanks for your reply! pls see my latest group reply...


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## whitebeltforever (Feb 4, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I wrestled for quite some time and coached it.  I don't have any Judo experience, so take what I say about Judo as speculation...
> 
> Both should give you an equally good workout, if the intensity of training is equal, ie how much time is spent "on the mat" vs instructional type stuff.
> 
> ...



***********lolz at the "i'm not allowed to knife him in the throat" point!!! xD   

this was SERIOUSLY helpful thanks so much for your input!!


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## whitebeltforever (Feb 4, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Wrestle if you can find a good club.  In Australia it is so rare it is like a super power.
> 
> Cardio is not something you have or dont by the way.
> 
> You have control over that.




***********thanks for your reply! pls see my latest group reply...  
really good point about the cardio!!!   and yeah i really havent looked into it much but this coach is an international competitor from brasil. and i thought his coaching was good. are u in aus?


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## whitebeltforever (Feb 4, 2017)

thanks for your reply and fantastic input! pls see my latest group reply...  




marques said:


> From my short experience, I find Wrestling more physical than Judo. Perhaps Wrestling is easier to learn. Perhaps Judo is more compatible with BJJ...
> 
> For self-defence... there are too many variables. Judo and Wrestling are more than two things, within two names. Both may be very effective (especially given you are training striking elsewhere).
> 
> I would choose Judo because it is more technical and more gentle to the body. (But in your place, I would try Wrestling, too, if there is a handy gym).


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## whitebeltforever (Feb 4, 2017)

thanks for your reply! pls see my latest group reply...   your input was SO helpful thanks heaps!!!!


JR 137 said:


> I can't cut and paste multiple quotes, so please bear with me...
> 
> I've seen a lot of Judo instructional stuff (I guess that means I know what I'm talking about ).  I don't think one looks much easier to learn than another.  Judo may have more techniques (?), being a long-term and formal structured curriculum.  I'd imagine that once you get past the basics and start developing deeper strategy, both would be equally difficult, as would any MA.
> 
> ...


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## whitebeltforever (Feb 4, 2017)

thanks for your reply! pls see my latest group reply...  ur input was v helpful!!!



Langenschwert said:


> As a baby judoka (three years in now), I say both are well-worth training. I'd be just as happy with wrestling (especially Catch Wrestling) if there was no Judo here.
> 
> It is cool to learn how to use an opponent's clothes against them. Anything you can do to someone in a gi can be applied to a jean jacket or similar if self-defence is a goal. No leg grabs allowed in Judo these days though. We learn them for grading, but they're banned in competition.
> 
> ...


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## JR 137 (Feb 4, 2017)

whitebeltforever said:


> hi everyone, i am so grateful for all ur help! i think i have made the decision to actually not go try the judo class... i'm pretty certain i will like wrestling better... i dont think i want to be thrown from that high... lol... i also saw a 1.5 hour typical judo class on youtube where they just set up a camera and let it roll for the whole class and it reminded me very much of my karate days where there's about a million drills, preparations and things... which just doesnt make sense or work for my style of learning. and i know that someone here said (and i will reply individually) that in wrestling the learning style is kind of more you learn a few moves then lots of practice with less detailed technical explainations? i prefer that i think... and i really have alot of trouble with anything that coordinates the upper body/and limbs. in karate i couldn't really even get the basic blocks. i can maybe remember 1? and that was less than 2 years ago and i trained for around 3-4 months. i also don't want to be too straight and high up like alot of you have mentioned... i will def i think have trouble with the wrestling flips... but i'm not really wanting to train at any sort of competitive level. i also get the feeling that its slightly more casual learning culture in wrestling? like some of you have said about the japanese styles' culture being a little more ridgid?
> 
> i'm pretty sure it was freestyle wrestling i did the other night. i really dont know how i will survive the warmups but the actual class content was more than managable.
> 
> ...



Just a word of advice/caution...

Don't base Judo on what you saw on YouTube.  Every teacher/coach is different.  On top of that, every day in practice is/should be different.  Perhaps that teacher wanted to emphasize technique that day.  Perhaps his students learn better than way.  Perhaps he's just a boring teacher.  Perhaps...

But if you found something you truly enjoy, stick with it.  No sense in fixing something that isn't broken.

As far as doing too many things, listen to your body.    Monitor how you're progressing.  If you're looking for mastery in one area, them maybe it is time to narrow things down.  If you're looking to have fun with it and you can take or leave getting really good at one aspect, then proceed.  It's your training and no one else's.  I'm too competitive with myself in that I need to get really good at something (not that that's happened yet!), and focus everything on it until I've gotten there, but that's just me.  Perhaps it's obsessive.  Others get bored with things and need constant change.  Perhaps that's a bit "ADD-ish."  It's all about how you're wired, not how anyone else is.

Life's too short to not do things that make you happy.


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## JP3 (Feb 5, 2017)

Langenschwert said:


> As a baby judoka (three years in now), I say both are well-worth training. I'd be just as happy with wrestling (especially Catch Wrestling) if there was no Judo here.
> 
> It is cool to learn how to use an opponent's clothes against them. Anything you can do to someone in a gi can be applied to a jean jacket or similar if self-defence is a goal. No leg grabs allowed in Judo these days though. We learn them for grading, but they're banned in competition.
> 
> ...



If you've been in judo only 3 years, they've just not taught the magic to you yet. You have much to learn, Padawan.


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## whitebeltforever (Feb 9, 2017)

i def agree with you... i am hoping that my boyfriend and me will go for a judo class on valentines day so that i can at least say that i've tried both. tnite i injured my knee in wrestling and felt really discoraged as we did single leg take downs and it was a bit scary...



JR 137 said:


> Just a word of advice/caution...
> 
> Don't base Judo on what you saw on YouTube.  Every teacher/coach is different.  On top of that, every day in practice is/should be different.  Perhaps that teacher wanted to emphasize technique that day.  Perhaps his students learn better than way.  Perhaps he's just a boring teacher.  Perhaps...
> 
> ...


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 9, 2017)

whitebeltforever said:


> i am hoping that my boyfriend and me will go for a judo class on valentines day


Relationship goals. I approve wholeheartedly.


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## JR 137 (Feb 9, 2017)

whitebeltforever said:


> i def agree with you... i am hoping that my boyfriend and me will go for a judo class on valentines day so that i can at least say that i've tried both. tnite i injured my knee in wrestling and felt really discoraged as we did single leg take downs and it was a bit scary...



Some people think dinner and a movie on Valentine's Day.  Others think throw, choke, and snap their date's limbs.

I'd love to bring my wife to a Judo class as a date.  She's got other ideas.  

Now that I think of it, I wonder if she secretly thinks about taking up shooting and bringing me along to hold up targets?  I'm glad she doesn't read this.


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## Langenschwert (Feb 12, 2017)

JP3 said:


> If you've been in judo only 3 years, they've just not taught the magic to you yet. You have much to learn, Padawan.



I've been shown some pretty cool magic. We've got multiple olympians and various national and regional champions in our club.


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## apmarek (Mar 6, 2017)

Slightly off topic but a quick question: doesn't BJJ have its roots in judo? Colonel Fairbarn was a black belt in it I believe and he helped make WW2 combatives known as defendu. I'd be curious to see what others think as well.


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## Steve (Mar 6, 2017)

apmarek said:


> Slightly off topic but a quick question: doesn't BJJ have its roots in judo? Colonel Fairbarn was a black belt in it I believe and he helped make WW2 combatives known as defendu. I'd be curious to see what others think as well.


Black belt in judo?  Not BJJ.  Right?


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 6, 2017)

apmarek said:


> Slightly off topic but a quick question: doesn't BJJ have its roots in judo? Colonel Fairbarn was a black belt in it I believe and he helped make WW2 combatives known as defendu. I'd be curious to see what others think as well.


Yep. BJJ is an offshoot of Judo specializing in newaza. It's also absorbed elements of Sombo and catch wrestling along the way, but the origin comes from Judo.


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## apmarek (Mar 6, 2017)

I've never heard of Sombo, but I have heard of Sambo- which is Russian.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 6, 2017)

apmarek said:


> I've never heard of Sombo, but I have heard of Sambo- which is Russian.


Same art, just an alternate way of spelling it in English.


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## Steve (Mar 6, 2017)

Sambo has a racist connotation in America, so it's commonly referred to as sombo.


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## Ironbear24 (Mar 6, 2017)

Judo.


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## Steve (Mar 6, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> Judo.


Ninjutsu!!


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## Ironbear24 (Mar 6, 2017)

Steve said:


> Ninjutsu!!



That's not one of his options.


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## Steve (Mar 6, 2017)

Budo taijutsu?


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## drop bear (Mar 7, 2017)

Steve said:


> Ninjutsu!!


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## Hanzou (Mar 16, 2017)

I would honestly recommend wrestling over Judo for a host of reasons. Beyond that, your typical Bjj school should offer a good mix of both without the limitations found in both aforementioned sports.

So in short, wrestling over Judo, and Bjj over both.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 16, 2017)

whitebeltforever said:


> How do i know whih one is more suited to me?
> Im quite a big girl. I am reasonably strong. And i dont have too many issues with speed  (used to do salsa). But im not the best at cardio... i get puffed out quite quickly in most activities. I love bjj and muay thai so far and i just want to learn one more m.a...
> Should i do judo or wrestling?
> 
> ...



There are some big differences between Judo and wrestling. The main difference is that in wrestling you're trying to pin your opponent and in Judo you're trying to submit your opponent. Also, wrestling does not have the throws that Judo has and you're much more restricted as to what you can do. In wrestling you can't choke your opponent or use any of the joint locks that they use in Judo. A wrestler would have no problem pinning a Judokan but a Judokan wouldn't care if they're pinned since they can still fight. Likewise a Judokan would have no problem getting a wrestler in a submission hold and once somebody is in a submission hold the fight is over. If you're looking for self defense I would say definitely go with Judo. Wrestling is not meant to be for self defense, its meant to be a sport and its not intended to be used for self defense any more than other sports such as Tennis or Golf.


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## drop bear (Mar 16, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> There are some big differences between Judo and wrestling. The main difference is that in wrestling you're trying to pin your opponent and in Judo you're trying to submit your opponent. Also, wrestling does not have the throws that Judo has and you're much more restricted as to what you can do. In wrestling you can't choke your opponent or use any of the joint locks that they use in Judo. A wrestler would have no problem pinning a Judokan but a Judokan wouldn't care if they're pinned since they can still fight. Likewise a Judokan would have no problem getting a wrestler in a submission hold and once somebody is in a submission hold the fight is over. If you're looking for self defense I would say definitely go with Judo. Wrestling is not meant to be for self defense, its meant to be a sport and its not intended to be used for self defense any more than other sports such as Tennis or Golf.



Has there been a Judo match won by a sub?
I dont think that is too common.

There is more evidence of wrestling being used in self defence than tennis or golf though.

like 50,000 years of it.


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## kuniggety (Mar 16, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Has there been a Judo match won by a sub?
> I dont think that is too common.
> 
> There is more evidence of wrestling being used in self defence than tennis or golf though.
> ...



Recently, I saw an article about a judoka using a flying arm bar in some big Judo Open in France. The losing guy looked piiiiiiiisssed. They're very rare in judo.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 16, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> There are some big differences between Judo and wrestling. The main difference is that in wrestling you're trying to pin your opponent and in Judo you're trying to submit your opponent. Also, wrestling does not have the throws that Judo has and you're much more restricted as to what you can do. In wrestling you can't choke your opponent or use any of the joint locks that they use in Judo. A wrestler would have no problem pinning a Judokan but a Judokan wouldn't care if they're pinned since they can still fight. Likewise a Judokan would have no problem getting a wrestler in a submission hold and once somebody is in a submission hold the fight is over. If you're looking for self defense I would say definitely go with Judo. Wrestling is not meant to be for self defense, its meant to be a sport and its not intended to be used for self defense any more than other sports such as Tennis or Golf.


Judo matches can be won by throw, pin, or submission. Due to the way the rules are currently structured, throws are most common.

Most throws found in Judo can also be found in wrestling, although there are some variations you won't find because they rely on gripping the gi. There are also a number of takedown variations used in wrestling which you won't typically find in Judo. Overall, the study of throws and takedowns is probably equally deep and wide in Judo and wrestling.

Even though most modern sport wrestling rules don't allow chokes or joint locks, wrestling can be and has been used very effectively in self-defense. As drop bear notes, this has been true for a very long time. You can read old fencing manuals which emphasize the importance of wrestling skills, you can watch real fights on YouTube in which wrestlers absolutely destroy their opponents, or you can look at the many old UFC matches won by wrestlers (before the sport evolved so every fighter was proficient in wrestling, jiu-jitsu, and striking).

BTW, it's judoka, not judokan.



drop bear said:


> Has there been a Judo match won by a sub?
> I dont think that is too common.



Plenty of Judo matches are won by submission. It's not as common as wins by throw, because the rules limit time allowed on the ground. The flip side of this is that those judoka who do specialize in submissions get really good at hitting them _fast_ when the fight hits the ground, because they only have a short time before the ref stands them back up.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 17, 2017)

drop bear said:


> There is more evidence of wrestling being used in self defence than tennis or golf though.


Im sure wrestling could be modified to be very effective in self defense, but what Im saying is when its taught that its taught to be a sport and the intention is not for it to be used any more in self defense than sports such as tennis or golf. At least that's my experience with wrestling.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 17, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Judo matches can be won by throw, pin, or submission. Due to the way the rules are currently structured, throws are most common.


Well yes, I do believe you get points for throws during a match and so you can win by throws by getting more points than your opponent. As for pinning, its not the same kind of pinning as done in wrestling where both shoulder blades have to be touching the matt for roughly 3 seconds, rather you pin your opponent from getting them in various holds and maintaining the hold for a certain length of time.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Most throws found in Judo can also be found in wrestling, although there are some variations you won't find because they rely on gripping the gi. There are also a number of takedown variations used in wrestling which you won't typically find in Judo. Overall, the study of throws and takedowns is probably equally deep and wide in Judo and wrestling.


From my experience in wrestling, they don't use the shoulder throws, neck throws, and waist throws that they use in Judo. They do sometimes use a variation of the Osoto Gari or leg throw, the slam as they call it in wrestling, but it is considered vicious by wrestling standards.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Im sure wrestling could be modified to be very effective in self defense, but what Im saying is when its taught that its taught to be a sport and the intention is not for it to be used any more in self defense than sports such as tennis or golf. At least that's my experience with wrestling.


It depends on how you may train. Your path may be "sport" but your goal can be more than that.


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Im sure wrestling could be modified to be very effective in self defense, but what Im saying is when its taught that its taught to be a sport and the intention is not for it to be used any more in self defense than sports such as tennis or golf. At least that's my experience with wrestling.



So learning to throw a guy on on their head is not a better self defense than hitting a ball with a stick.

A wrestler using just legal wrestling and nothing else could cripple you if he felt the urge.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 17, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well yes, I do believe you get points for throws during a match and so you can win by throws by getting more points than your opponent


Not just points. In Judo the ideal is to win with a single decisive throw which ends the match.



PhotonGuy said:


> As for pinning, its not the same kind of pinning as done in wrestling where both shoulder blades have to be touching the matt for roughly 3 seconds, rather you pin your opponent from getting them in various holds and maintaining the hold for a certain length of time.



Yeah, in Judo the pin has to be held longer and the rules are slightly different for what qualifies as a pin. Still, pinning is part of the art and sport of Judo. At the lower levels of competition, wrestlers have entered Judo tournaments and won by pins.



PhotonGuy said:


> From my experience in wrestling, they don't use the shoulder throws, neck throws, and waist throws that they use in Judo.



How extensive is your wrestling experience? All those throws exist in wrestling. You're more likely to see them in Greco-Roman than in Folkstyle or Freestyle wrestling, but a high level wrestler will know them.









It's true that wrestling is primarily taught as a sport. So is Judo in most schools. They are still both very effective for self-defense. Despite the fact that they are commonly considered unarmed systems, they can also be considered weapon arts. That weapon is the planet. Get hit with a planet to the head and most people won't keep fighting that hard.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 18, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> How extensive is your wrestling experience? All those throws exist in wrestling. You're more likely to see them in Greco-Roman than in Folkstyle or Freestyle wrestling, but a high level wrestler will know them.


I did wrestling in summer camp and in elementary school and in jr. high. We were mostly taught to use takedowns where you go for your opponent's legs and we were taught pinning techniques such as the cradle hold. We were also taught the top and bottom starting positions in addition to the neutral position.


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