# JRE - Striking and BJJ



## TMA17 (Sep 18, 2018)

Eddi Bravo said he's going to start taking up kick boxing and stresses the importance of striking for street fighting.

Starts @ 9:52.  Mentions Bruce Lee.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 18, 2018)

there is a point that grappling can go too far down a rabbit hole.  i watched a EBI event the other day and the two champs spent 15 minutes trying to get a toe lock.  grappling wise it was high level but self defense wise it was ridiculous.


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## now disabled (Sep 18, 2018)

Just a thought, how much that happens actually in a ring can be transferred to the SD situation?

@hoshin1600 makes great point imo yes it high level grappling and on that point as fights in the ring are a tactical battle as much as physical and have rules and time frames what can be taken from them? 

Not downing the ring scene or the pro fight scene in anyway


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> there is a point that grappling can go too far down a rabbit hole.  i watched a EBI event the other day and the two champs spent 15 minutes trying to get a toe lock.  grappling wise it was high level but self defense wise it was ridiculous.



Thing is, it may take 15 minutes to get a leglock off on an elite grappler, but you could probably get it off in seconds against a person who has no idea what you're doing. Joint destruction in the foot and leg is absolutely debilitating and there's very little chance the person you just performed that on is going to be much of a threat afterwards.


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## jobo (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Thing is, it may take 15 minutes to get a leglock off on an elite grappler, but you could probably get it off in seconds against a person who has no idea what you're doing.


But you can say much the same for a right cross, someone with no idea will walk straiGht into it.

Are you now saying that you should base your sd training only on people who have no idea what your doing/ abOut to do ?


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## now disabled (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Thing is, it may take 15 minutes to get a leglock off on an elite grappler, but you could probably get it off in seconds against a person who has no idea what you're doing. Joint destruction in the foot and leg is absolutely debilitating and there's very little chance the person you just performed that on is going to be much of a threat afterwards.




Any joint major joint destruction is going to be debilitating, that is not solely the preserve of the leg and foot


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

jobo said:


> But you can say much the same for a right cross, someone with no idea will walk straiGht into it.
> 
> Are you now saying that you should base your sd training only on people who have no idea what your doing/ abOut to do ?



A right cross isn't always going to knock someone out, and there's a chance of missing completely.

Once a leglock is engaged, there's an extremely high chance that your leg is going to break, and expert grapplers are experts at initiating it from multiple set ups.


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Any joint major joint destruction is going to be debilitating, that is not solely the preserve of the leg and foot



True, but arm and shoulder locks are a bit easier to counter and people are more familiar with the set up. Leglocks are alien territory for a lot of people. Even expert martial artists and grapplers.


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## now disabled (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> True, but arm and shoulder locks are a bit easier to counter and people are more familiar with the set up. Leglocks are alien territory for a lot of people. Even expert martial artists and grapplers.




Ok maybe but if the arm,wrist, elbow or shoulder locks and destruction are easier set up it doesn't mean they are any less destructive and in effect potentially more useful ? I understand what you are saying however with a leg lock like you are talking about does it not mean going to ground? if so in a SD situation is that not going to place you at a disadvantage ? In as much as you are then open to others countering you ?


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## jobo (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> A right cross isn't always going to knock someone out, and there's a chance of missing completely.
> 
> Once a leglock is engaged, there's an extremely high chance that your leg is going to break, and expert grapplers are experts at initiating it from multiple set ups.


There a chance of missing completly with a leg lock ? il grab his leg, ooops missed


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## TMA17 (Sep 18, 2018)

I'd imagine you can really break your hand on someone's head if not careful.  I think Hollywood and boxing (gloves) give a false impression of how real striking can inflict serious damage to your hand.


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Ok maybe but if the arm,wrist, elbow or shoulder locks and destruction are easier set up it doesn't mean they are any less destructive and in effect potentially more useful ? I understand what you are saying however with a leg lock like you are talking about does it not mean going to ground? if so in a SD situation is that not going to place you at a disadvantage ? In as much as you are then open to others countering you ?



Again it depends on the person we're talking about here. If we're dealing with an elite grappler (per Hoshin's example) they can set up the leg lock in a matter of seconds and snap someone's leg in under a minute. Again, the vast majority of people have no idea what you're doing in those set ups, so I would argue that the leglock is actually easier to pull off than an arm or shoulder lock. Also someone can still put up a fight with a snapped elbow or wrist. You're definitely not in fighting shape if you can't walk.


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

jobo said:


> There a chance of missing completly with a leg lock ? il grab his leg, ooops missed



There are set ups that are part of chains, so if you miss the first time, you can quickly chain into another one.


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## now disabled (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Again it depends on the person we're talking about here. If we're dealing with an elite grappler (per Hoshin's example) they can set up the leg lock in a matter of seconds and snap someone's leg in under a minute. Again, the vast majority of people have no idea what you're doing in those set ups, so I would argue that the leglock is actually easier to pull off than an arm or shoulder lock. Also someone can still put up a fight with a snapped elbow or wrist. You're definitely not in fighting shape if you can't walk.




Hmmm not many will still fight if you destroy an elbow ... that takes major pain tolerance, and there are ways of destroying the ability to walk not involving a leg leg ...which again would not involve going to ground


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## now disabled (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> There are set ups that are part of chains, so if you miss the first time, you can quickly chain into another one.




But that again is not just the premise of leg locks, most if not all techs can be strung or chained together and if one doesn't work move to next attempt and so forth


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Hmmm not many will still fight if you destroy an elbow ... that takes major pain tolerance,



Yes, and if your opponent is hyped up on drugs or some other substance, they will fight against that pain tolerance and still come after you. If you snap the knee or the heel no amount of pain tolerance is going to allow their broken joints from supporting their weight.



> and there are ways of destroying the ability to walk not involving a leg leg ...which again would not involve going to ground



If you're talking about leg kicks or stamping kicks, those take time and are far lower percentage attacks.



now disabled said:


> But that again is not just the premise of leg locks....



I never said they were.


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## now disabled (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Yes, and if your opponent is hyped up on drugs or some other substance, they will fight against that pain tolerance and still come after you. If you snap the knee or the heel no amount of pain tolerance is going to allow their broken joints from supporting their weight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Someone that has that much in them that they do not stop after an elbow is destroyed etc is gonna be very much disadvantaged with one side of his body basically useless that I doubt the potential to keep going would be there, but I guess nothing is 100% 

As for low percentage and more time I'd disagree there


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## jobo (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> There are set ups that are part of chains, so if you miss the first time, you can quickly chain into another one.


So exactly the same as a right cross then ?


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

jobo said:


> So exactly the same as a right cross then ?



If you want to believe that punches are "exactly the same" as a leg lock set up, that's your business.


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## jobo (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> If you want to believe that punches are "exactly the same" as a leg lock set up, that's your business.


THey ( punches) are part of a chain, if you miss one attempt you transition into another, to that extent they are much the same !


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 18, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I'd imagine you can really break your hand on someone's head if not careful.  I think Hollywood and boxing (gloves) give a false impression of how real striking can inflict serious damage to your hand.



While I understand what you mean, and I agree with that to an extent, how about a martial artist who has trained a certain way to hold his fist and strike hard objects; do you think that person is still likely to injure a hand during a strike?


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

jobo said:


> THey ( punches) are part of a chain, if you miss one attempt you transition into another, to that extent they are much the same !



And if you connect with a punch you have a fairly low chance of knocking them out. If you connect with a leg lock set up, you have a high chance of breaking their leg.

So no, not exactly the same.


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> While I understand what you mean, and I agree with that to an extent, how about a martial artist who has trained a certain way to hold his fist and strike hard objects; do you think that person is still likely to injure a hand during a strike?



Yes. There's lots of tiny bones in the hand that are easily broken. There's a reason why Mas Oyama prohibited punches to the face in Kyokushin.


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## jobo (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> And if you connect with a punch you have a fairly low chance of knocking them out. If you connect with a leg lock set up, you have a high chance of breaking their leg.
> 
> So no, not exactly the same.


How have you arived at the " fairly low" clasiffication, that surely depends entirely on the proficiency of the puncher, ? , if i hit someone clean theres a fairly high chance they will fall over ? and in the scheme of things im not a particularly heavy puncher


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

jobo said:


> How have you arived at the " fairly low" clasiffication, that surely depends entirely on the proficiency of the puncher, ? , if i hit someone clean theres a fairly high chance they will fall over ? and in the scheme of things im not a particularly heavy puncher



That would depend on who you're punching, where you're punching, and how you're punching. Also hitting someone clean is an "if". There's plenty of examples of people in street fights getting hit clean and not getting knocked out.

There's also the possibility of hurting or breaking your hands.


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

jobo said:


> So exactly the same as a right cross then ?


Yep fact a punch is a lot quicker than a submission. A punch is just straight out with the hips turned. A submission you need to get the right position, control the limb, get your hips right then get into the submission then apply it to make it work then the seconds it takes to break which may only be q few but every second counts


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Another thread. Another time Hanzou is defending bjj and claiming it's the ultimate style


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Another thread. Another time Hanzou is defending bjj and claiming it's the ultimate style



1. Its a Bjj thread.
2. I've never said that BJJ is the ultimate style.


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I'd imagine you can really break your hand on someone's head if not careful.  I think Hollywood and boxing (gloves) give a false impression of how real striking can inflict serious damage to your hand.


Even with boxing gloves hands get broken, in Krav we do use closed fists at times but a lot of it is palm strikes. Just as powerful and no broken hands


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> 1. Its a Bjj thread.
> 2. I've never said that BJJ is the ultimate style.


It's just funny how every time bjj is mentioned you're here arguing with someone. Before I even clicked on this thread or read it I know you'd be on here arguing


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> It's just funny how every time bjj is mentioned you're here arguing with someone. Before I even clicked on this thread or read it I know you'd be on here arguing



Merely clearing up some misconceptions about BJJ. In this case, the belief that someone competing in EBI would be spending 15 minutes trying to get a leglock with someone unprepared for it.  It would probably be more like 15 seconds.


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## Buka (Sep 18, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I'd imagine you can really break your hand on someone's head if not careful.  I think Hollywood and boxing (gloves) give a false impression of how real striking can inflict serious damage to your hand.



Well said. 

Always a good idea for people to remember that boxing gloves were invented to protect the hands, not the face. And you know what else I think gives a false impression of how real striking can inflict damage to your hand? Karate schools in general.


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

jobo said:


> Are you now saying that you should base your sd training only on people who have no idea what your doing/ abOut to do ?



I actually didnt catch this the first time...

No, I'm not saying that. I was simply saying that the vast majority of the population has absolutely no idea how to recognize much less counter a leglock set up.


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## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> If you're talking about leg kicks or stamping kicks, those take time and are far lower percentage attacks.





Hanzou said:


> Merely clearing up some misconceptions about BJJ. In this case, the belief that someone competing in EBI would be spending 15 minutes trying to get a leglock with someone unprepared for it.  It would probably be more like 15 seconds.



I can do a kick to an opponent's leg hard enough to bend their knee backwards in well under a second, and I don't have to lay on the floor (in all that glass) to do it.

Go on, say I'm wrong.


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> I can do a kick to an opponent's leg hard enough to bend their knee backwards in well under a second, and I don't have to lay on the floor (in all that glass) to do it.
> 
> Go on, say I'm wrong.


He'll say that there's no guarantee the kick will work...he said the same about a cross


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

At the end of the day. You need striking for self defence that's a no brainer. You can win a fight without grappling you can't win without knowing anything about striking. I've always said bjj is a good supplement to a striking style to add to your game but it's not something I'd ever want to be my only form of self defence training. Heck even my bjj instructor said the same thing. His words were "a fight isn't a grappling match, if you mount a guy don't waste time going for an arm bar just keep punching the guy or if you go down get up quick." And that's a second Dan Black Belt under bauralio Estima saying that


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## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Buka said:


> Well said.
> 
> Always a good idea for people to remember that boxing gloves were invented to protect the hands, not the face. And you know what else I think gives a false impression of how real striking can inflict damage to your hand? Karate schools in general.



An incorrect punch can certainly damage your hand, I had a hospital visit and x-ray to prove it.

A correct punch though, that's far less likely to do any harm (unless you're very unlucky and they move sufficiently so it becomes an incorrect punch).

I'd personally always choose a closed fist punch over a palm strike (risk to wrist).

And I'd always choose a kick over a punch


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## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> He'll say that there's no guarantee the kick will work...he said the same about a cross



Meh, I've got about 20 chances to make it work in the same timeframe he quoted to apply a leg lock.


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> I can do a kick to an opponent's leg hard enough to bend their knee backwards in well under a second, and I don't have to lay on the floor (in all that glass) to do it.
> 
> Go on, say I'm wrong.



You're wrong because even professional fighters are unable to accomplish that feat on a regular basis.


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## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You're wrong because even professional fighters are unable to accomplish that feat on a regular basis.



Against other professional fighters.

You yourself said that a leg lock would work in 15 seconds against someone not expecting it but might take 15 minutes against another similarly trained individual.

Ergo, I claim my right to apply your rules.

I might need those 1,200 chances to make that kick work against someone with the same ability as me (extrapolating from the previously quoted timings, provided by you).

Against someone who isn't expecting me to go for the knee, different matter - and I've got 20 tries at it


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> Meh, I've got about 20 chances to make it work in the same timeframe he quoted to apply a leg lock.


Lol I was right he said exactly that


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You're wrong because even professional fighters are unable to accomplish that feat on a regular basis.


Um I think you are contradicting yourself there.....you said how a jiu jitsu guy may take ages applying a leg lock against a pro but he can do it easily against an untrained fighter.....so why can't a pro striker easily destroy an untrained fighters leg with a kick....make up your mind


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> Against other professional fighters.
> 
> You yourself said that a leg lock would work in 15 seconds against someone not expecting it but might take 15 minutes against another similarly trained individual.
> 
> ...


Yeah I'd rather have 20 Chances to kick someone's leg when I'm at kick range than 1 chance at a leg lock on the ground


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> Against other professional fighters.
> 
> You yourself said that a leg lock would work in 15 seconds against someone not expecting it but might take 15 minutes against another similarly trained individual.
> 
> ...



I said someone from EBI applying the leg lock on someone not anticipating what's happening (i.e. an ite grappler). You're saying that you can reliably bend back *anyone's* knee via kicking. Hopefully you can see the difference.


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Um I think you are contradicting yourself there.....you said how a jiu jitsu guy may take ages applying a leg lock against a pro but he can do it easily against an untrained fighter.....so why can't a pro striker easily destroy an untrained fighters leg with a kick....make up your mind



Pdg is a pro striker?


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Pdg is a pro striker?


I'm willing to bet he's better than the average mugger or street thug


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## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Pdg is a pro striker?



No, I'm not.

Which is why I personally used the term "someone of the same ability as me".

But, you pretty much said (or at least implicitly implied) a pro grappler Vs untrained and unexpecting - so pro striker Vs untrained and unexpecting is a valid comparison.


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> I'm willing to bet he's better than the average mugger or street thug



If hes not regularly kicking out people's knees everytime he spars, it's not a reliable outcome of his striking. It certainly COULD happen, but to say (like he did) that he can do it everytime he kicks is silly talk.


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> No, I'm not.
> 
> Which is why I personally used the term "someone of the same ability as me".
> 
> But, you pretty much said (or at least implicitly implied) a pro grappler Vs untrained and unexpecting - so pro striker Vs untrained and unexpecting is a valid comparison.


It's pointless trying to talk reasonably here unless you just say "bjj is amazing and perfect and bjj can beat every other style with no problem"


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## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> If hes not regularly kicking out people's knees everytime he spars, it's not a reliable outcome of his striking. It certainly COULD happen, but to say (like he did) that he can do it everytime he kicks is silly talk.



Please make use of the quote facility to show exactly where I said I could fold a knee every time.


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> If hes not regularly kicking out people's knees everytime he spars, it's not a reliable outcome of his striking. It certainly COULD happen, but to say (like he did) that he can do it everytime he kicks is silly talk.


Ah so a grappler has to break his partners leg every time he trains then right? By your own logic that's what he has to do


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## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> I'm willing to bet he's better than the average mugger or street thug



Maybe on par.

But if I get jumped by a child or an infirm pensioner, they're in for a world of pain


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Anyway if someone puts me in a leg lock first thing I'm going to do is use my other leg to kick him in the face and hanzou before you say it wouldn't work. It would because I've drilled it with a friend of mine. I was testing out ways of using strikes to use submissions when I got put in a leg I put my other foot right by his face. Obviously I wasn't going to boot his face in but by putting it before he applied it showed I could do it if I wanted to


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Ah so a grappler has to break his partners leg every time he trains then right? By your own logic that's what he has to do



No, but the grappler forces the tap everytime. To achieve a break all you have to do is keep applying pressure as if they didnt tap.


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> Maybe on par.
> 
> But if I get jumped by a child or an infirm pensioner, they're in for a world of pain


Tbh I think that if a grappler got into a street fight he wouldn't try many submissions either apart from maybe chokes. If a guy gets top position he's going to punch you. Even if your a black belt why would you give up a good position like a mount to attempt an arm bar and a) put your back on the floor trying and b) risk not getting it then him getting on top. It's funny when I was working as a bouncer in a club years ago. 2 guys who I knew were good jiu jitsu guys both were brown belt I think. They got into a scrap and they just throwing punches, neither attempted a take down and it only went to the floor because one tripped up and they got straight back up quick. Neither attempted a sub or a guard of any of that


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> Please make use of the quote facility to show exactly where I said I could fold a knee every time.



That's what you were implying in your opening post.


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> No, but the grappler forces the tap everytime. To achieve a break all you have to do is keep applying pressure as if they didnt tap.


Just because 1 guy Taps doesn't mean everyone will....for example kimuras don't work on me. I'm not bragging they just simply don't. Even I'm drills when I'm not fighting back they don't work on me I don't feel them at all I've had my arm all the way up to my back and it's never worked. I've seen the same with people with arm bars and chokes. Sometimes it just doesn't work


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> That's what you were implying in your opening post.


No he said he can do it,,,in a hypothetical way like he could achieve the same damage without going to the floor. He never said he could drop everyone on the planet. That's just you making things up


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## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> That's what you were implying in your opening post.



No, I said I could put that much force into a kick - a kick that you said was unreliable and took time.

My point was mainly about the time aspect.

If you're saying that you assumed I meant I could do it every time then I have to think that you believe a leg lock is a 100% effective technique, which is honestly dreaming.


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## TMA17 (Sep 18, 2018)

Well I think we'd all agree you need to be able to strike and grapple.  We've all seen the videos of street fights where two guys are throwing wild punches and eventually someone gets clipped.  The other scenario is the grappler closes the distance and gains control.  Once takedown is achieved, the grappler can control what he wants to do.


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## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Well I think we'd all agree you need to be able to strike and grapple.  We've all seen the videos of street fights where two guys are throwing wild punches and eventually someone gets clipped.  The other scenario is the grappler closes the distance and gains control.  Once takedown is achieved, the grappler can control what he wants to do.



You don't necessarily need to grapple if you can strike.

Because, the other other scenario is the person who actually knows how to strike properly controls the distance and strikes properly.

You don't have to grab someone and take them to the ground to have control of the situation.


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## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> You don't necessarily need to grapple if you can strike.
> 
> Because, the other other scenario is the person who actually knows how to strike properly controls the distance and strikes properly.
> 
> You don't have to grab someone and take them to the ground to have control of the situation.



Because, not many strikers stand about swinging wildly in the hope one will eventually clip...


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## TMA17 (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> You don't necessarily need to grapple if you can strike.
> 
> Because, the other other scenario is the person who actually knows how to strike properly controls the distance and strikes properly.
> 
> You don't have to grab someone and take them to the ground to have control of the situation.




What do you think of this?


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## TMA17 (Sep 18, 2018)

The counter to grappling is grappling.
The counter to strikiing is striking or grappling.


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Just because 1 guy Taps doesn't mean everyone will....for example kimuras don't work on me. I'm not bragging they just simply don't. Even I'm drills when I'm not fighting back they don't work on me I don't feel them at all I've had my arm all the way up to my back and it's never worked. I've seen the same with people with arm bars and chokes. Sometimes it just doesn't work



Indeed, thats why you roll with multiple partners with multiple strengths and weaknesses, so when you encounter someone similar you'll know how to respond.


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## now disabled (Sep 18, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> The counter to grappling is grappling.
> The counter to strikiing is striking or grappling.




Not necessarily as that a broad canvas


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## Buka (Sep 18, 2018)

Just felt like posting a cute photo. I do that from time to time.


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> You don't necessarily need to grapple if you can strike.
> 
> Because, the other other scenario is the person who actually knows how to strike properly controls the distance and strikes properly.
> 
> You don't have to grab someone and take them to the ground to have control of the situation.


Best way to control any situation. Run like hell situation controlled. It's hard to do that when grappling


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> You don't necessarily need to grapple if you can strike.
> 
> Because, the other other scenario is the person who actually knows how to strike properly controls the distance and strikes properly.
> 
> You don't have to grab someone and take them to the ground to have control of the situation.



Frankly I have yet to see any striker control the distance to the point they can keep a trained grappler at bay for an extended amount of time. The only way that happens is if the striker has extensively trained in take down defenses i.e. like Chuck Liddell (who was actually a wrestler who just liked to punch people).


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## now disabled (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Best way to control any situation. Run like hell situation controlled. It's hard to do that when grappling




Agree that is the best SD tactic ...


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## now disabled (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Frankly I have yet to see any striker control the distance to the point they can keep a trained grappler at bay for an extended amount of time. The only way that happens is if the striker has extensively trained in take down defenses i.e. like Chuck Liddell (who was actually a wrestler who just liked to punch people).




No that happens if the striker understands proper distance


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Frankly I have yet to see any striker control the distance to the point they can keep a trained grappler at bay for an extended amount of time. The only way that happens is if the striker has extensively trained in take down defenses i.e. like Chuck Liddell (who was actually a wrestler who just liked to punch people).


You do know this is about self defence not the ring? Extended amount of time? Real fights last about 30 seconds to a minute not 15 minutes with 1 minute break in between


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Agree that is the best SD tactic ...


I'd never want to be on the ground top or bottom. If I ever ended up on top I'd stand up then either run or neutralise him from my feet if he tries to get up


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> You do know this is about self defence not the ring? Extended amount of time? Real fights last about 30 seconds to a minute not 15 minutes with 1 minute break in between



I was actually talking about self defense. The idea that a striker can just dance around a trained grappler and take pop shots until the latter gets knocked out is pure fantasy. Taped street fights bear that out, where the distance is closed and grappling range is reached almost every time  (everything else is one-shot KOs).


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## now disabled (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> I'd never want to be on the ground top or bottom. If I ever ended up on top I'd stand up then either run or neutralise him from my feet if he tries to get up




!00% agree there my friend ....and you make a good point ....people can neutralize a person without going to ground themselves


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

This is the closest thing I've seen in mma that resembles a street fight. This is how pretty much all street fights go notice the one desperate takedown the guy tried was easily blocked. That's the thing it's hard to hit that perfect takedown when getting smashed in the face multiple times.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

now disabled said:


> No that happens if the striker understands proper distance



You can learn all the proper distance you want, if you don't know how to stop a standard takedown from a wrestler, you're going on your back.

And no, punching and kicking isn't going to get you out of that situation.


----------



## now disabled (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You can learn all the proper distance you want, if you don't know how to stop a standard takedown from a wrestler, you're going on your back.
> 
> And no, punching and kicking isn't going to get you out of that situation.



how is that?


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You can learn all the proper distance you want, if you don't know how to stop a standard takedown from a wrestler, you're going on your back.
> 
> And no, punching and kicking isn't going to get you out of that situation.


Sure about that?


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

now disabled said:


> how is that?


This is one way to stop a takedown


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

At th end of the day. Fighting is pure luck....anyone can beat anyone on any day no matter what you train. A boxer could ko a wrestler, a wrestler could beat a Muay Thai guy, a Muay Thai guy could beat a jiu jitsu, a jiu jitsu guy could beat a Muay Thai, a Krav Maga guy could beat an Mma fighter and a Mma fighter could beat a Krav Maga guy. It really is as simple as that. There's no guarantees in fighting....fighting is a very dangerous and very stupid thing to do. Best thing for self defence...keep your mouth shut, avoid trouble, you feel something's about to go down get the hell out of there


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## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> What do you think of this?



I agree with much he said.

I don't entirely agree with some of it.

I disagree with a portion of it.


So, firstly - closing the distance.

SD situation, someone pulls a knife (or there's a chance they have one) then I want away - second choice is keeping distance - absolute last choice is closing the distance.

He said the only defence against grappling is grappling - for one I don't think that's entirely correct (although recognising a grappling entry is a good plan) and for two what are the chances of having to "self defend" against a grappler anyway? More likely you'll be defending against a "street boxer".

Any situation - he appears to be talking close range striking, punches and knees. That's not my distance. Closing that distance is a matter of leaning forward. My distance is over double that, you'll need to be stepping to close that - which gives me chance to avoid and/or counter because I'm going to be that little bit more likely to see you coming.

Don't get me wrong, against a good (or better) grappler I'll likely have issues, but against one that is comparable in ability to my striking? No. Do not agree.


He also said about striking arts training "your reverse punch, your jab/cross/knee, your elbows" - that's not my style of striking. My offensive hand techniques are crap and I know it. That's why my hands get used for defence and distraction.


Really, if your idea of a striking art is punches and knees (which is what his seems to be) then yeah, I agree - against a grappler you'll be playing right into their court.

I like range, I like proper kicks, I don't always need a foot on the floor and if it happens and I'm on the ground I can kick from there too.


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Sure about that?



And how many times in the history of MMA has that actually happened?

Again, we're talking low percentage vs high percentage.


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> And how many times in the history of MMA has that actually happened.
> 
> Again, we're talking low percentage vs high percentage.


Ah so it's something that /rarely/ happens now as opposed to something that never happens before I posted that clip. Also I've seen it happen plenty of times in local shows and not just with knees either. Guy goes to shoot in ducks right into an uppercut. I've seen that happen loads of times


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

now disabled said:


> how is that?



Have you simply missed the last 25 years of martial arts history?


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## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> The counter to grappling is grappling.
> The counter to strikiing is striking or grappling.



Well, no.

I get out to my range, you shoot in for a double leg.

You have to step first, that gives me an extra beat to side step.

Now you're face down on the floor and I'm stood next to you. Probably restomping your groin.

Grapple out of that.


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Ah so it's something that /rarely/ happens now as opposed to something that never happens before I posted that clip. Also I've seen it happen plenty of times in local shows and not just with knees either. Guy goes to shoot in ducks right into an uppercut. I've seen that happen loads of times



Where did I say that it never happens? Of course it _can_ happen, but it isn't a reliable game plan because it can completely fail on you. Just like believing that you have a knockout punch when you've never actually knocked out anyone. Certainly there's a _chance_ you can knock someone out, but it isn't something you should rely on when the poop hits the fan. 

To the point: the Double Leg Takedown is a high percentage move. Kneeing someone in the face to stop the DLT is a low percentage move. On the other hand, performing a sprawl to stop the DLT is a high percentage move.


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## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Have you simply missed the last 25 years of martial arts history?



MMA and BJJ competition is barely scratching the surface of the last 25 years of ma history.

Whatever you think, that is not the pinnacle - it's a game, played to rules.

Take away or change the rules and they'd probably do pretty well, but would far less likely dominate.


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## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> To the point: the Double Leg Takedown is a high percentage move. Kneeing someone in the face to stop the DLT is a low percentage move. On the other hand, performing a sprawl to stop the DLT is a high percentage move.



Not being there is a far higher percentage.


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> MMA and BJJ competition is barely scratching the surface of the last 25 years of ma history.
> 
> Whatever you think, that is not the pinnacle - it's a game, played to rules.
> 
> Take away or change the rules and they'd probably do pretty well, but would far less likely dominate.



It isn't just MMA  or Bjj competition, it's all the challenge matches that have come with it. Frankly its shocking that people still believe that a good response to a DLT is trying to kick or knee the attacker in the face.


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## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> It isn't just MMA  or Bjj competition, it's all the challenge matches that have come with it. Frankly its shocking that people still believe that a good response to a DLT is trying to kick or knee the attacker in the face.



I didn't say that trying to kick or knee them in the face was a good response.

Unless they do it extremely badly I wouldn't even attempt it.


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> MMA and BJJ competition is barely scratching the surface of the last 25 years of ma history.
> 
> Whatever you think, that is not the pinnacle - it's a game, played to rules.
> 
> Take away or change the rules and they'd probably do pretty well, but would far less likely dominate.


Agreed again as I've said this thread is about self defence not. Very rarely in street fights that go to the ground are actually from takedowns. It's either from getting knocked down or the guys tripping up over themselves and them both falling over. I'd never put a guy in my guard in a real fight because well why would I do that...I'm trapping a guy on top of me so he can't get off me and now I can't use my legs because they're holding this guy in place so I have no ways of defending or attacking if someone else comes at me when I'm on the floor .....thats pretty stupid of me to do that isn't it


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Agreed again as I've said this thread is about self defence not. Very rarely in street fights that go to the ground are actually from takedowns. It's either from getting knocked down or the guys tripping up over themselves and them both falling over. I'd never put a guy in my guard in a real fight because well why would I do that...I'm trapping a guy on top of me so he can't get off me and now I can't use my legs because they're holding this guy in place so I have no ways of defending or attacking if someone else comes at me when I'm on the floor .....thats pretty stupid of me to do that isn't it



You put an assailant into your guard to control his distance and avoid landing blows on your face and head while he's on top of you.


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> I didn't say that trying to kick or knee them in the face was a good response.
> 
> Unless they do it extremely badly I wouldn't even attempt it.


Yep it's not the best idea but it's also something that can happen and saying it can never happen is just ignorant. Strikes can stop takedowns especially if your pushed against a wall which is likely because most street encounters will be in tight spaces. Someone tries to take me down and I get pushed against the wall I'm slamming elbows into their head or the back of the head or the spine. Not trying to ko them but to cause them pain so they don't think about anything else


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You put an assailant into your guard to control his distance and avoid landing blows on your face and head while he's on top of you.


Ah so you can't get punched when someone's in the guard right? And what's stopping other guys booting you in the head....don't believe that's covered in bjj class


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

For reference for one of my previous comments


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Ah so you can't get punched when someone's in the guard right? And what's stopping other guys booting you in the head....don't believe that's covered in bjj class



What's better? Getting a boot to your head, or getting a boot to your head while getting punched in the face at the same time?

Both situations suck, but one is clearly better than the other.


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## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Yep it's not the best idea but it's also something that can happen and saying it can never happen is just ignorant. Strikes can stop takedowns especially if your pushed against a wall which is likely because most street encounters will be in tight spaces. Someone tries to take me down and I get pushed against the wall I'm slamming elbows into their head or the back of the head or the spine. Not trying to ko them but to cause them pain so they don't think about anything else



Yes, it can happen - and like I implied I would do it if the situation supported it.

But it wouldn't be my go-to.

In the situation you suggested - put against a wall - as well as the striking (they're right there so why not) I'd be looking to switch, probably using the wall for leverage, preferably keeping them facing the wall...


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> What's better? Getting a boot to your head, or getting a boot to your head while getting punched in the face at the same time?
> 
> Both situations suck, but one is clearly better than the other.


I'll tell you what's better having your legs free to kick them away and then stand up and escape which is what you should be doing if your attacked not playing around holding them in place. You should be doing everything to escape and if your holding someone in guard you have no chance


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## jobo (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> That would depend on who you're punching, where you're punching, and how you're punching. Also hitting someone clean is an "if". There's plenty of examples of people in street fights getting hit clean and not getting knocked out.
> 
> There's also the possibility of hurting or breaking your hands.


a right cross to the jaw, who your punching has little bearing, leaving a side some freaks most people will fall over if you hit them hard. Even if they dont their brains and ballance are scrambled, so the next one knocks them over. Or you kick their legs away whilst they are tottering,

There are lots of people on you tube getting knocked over as well, you tube isnt actually a source of statical infomation. And we are talking abiyt being hit by a trained fighter not some drunks letting go in a kebab shop.

Ive hit lots of people and never broken my hand, perhaps i dont punch hard enough, but they still fall over,


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Anyway I'm out of here. Hanzou you keep it up with your closed minded attitude about anything that's not grappling


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> I'll tell you what's better having your legs free to kick them away and then stand up and escape which is what you should be doing if your attacked not playing around holding them in place. You should be doing everything to escape and if your holding someone in guard you have no chance



You're going to be trying to kick people away and trying to stand up while 2 people are standing over you (or one is on top of you) socking and kicking you in the face and head? Are you serious?

Edit: You don't "hold" someone in the guard. You break their posture and either choke, sweep, or whatever you need to do. Once you're done with assailant on top of you, you can then deal with the boot kicker.


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

jobo said:


> a right cross to the jaw, who your punching has little bearing, leaving a side some freaks most people will fall over if you hit them hard. Even if they dont their brains and ballance are scrambled, so the next one knocks them over. Or you kick their legs away whilst they are tottering,
> 
> There are lots of people on you tube getting knocked over as well, you tube isnt actually a source of statical infomation. And we are talking abiyt being hit by a trained fighter not some drunks letting go in a kebab shop.
> 
> Ive hit lots of people and never broken my hand, perhaps i dont punch hard enough, but they still fall over,


Exactly even if a punch doesn't drop someone its going to have some effect if it just makes them stop for a second that second can be all you need to escape. E.g you hit the nose and break it even if their not hurt from the punch their eyes will be watering and they'll be tasting their own blood and since most attackers are cowards who pick on people they think are weak they won't like it and won't be expecting it


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## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You're going to be trying to kick people away and trying to stand up while 2 people are standing over you (or one is on top of you) socking and kicking you in the face and head? Are you serious?



It's 2 on 1 now is it?

Fine - I'll bait you into a DLT while my friend restomps your groin.


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You're going to be trying to kick people away and trying to stand up while 2 people are standing over you (or one is on top of you) socking and kicking you in the face and head? Are you serious?


Yes by moving back kicking at them so they haven't got a chance to get on me then when I get distance stand up. If they are on me I'm going to be hitting them elbowing them, biting them, scratching them, shoving my fingers in their eyes to move them away, is it guaranteed to work? No of course not but it's a much better option than playing leg locks or guard. 

And before you say it yes I have trained it. It's a stress drill we do where multiple people are trying to get to you when your on your back and your job is to get up quick. We're fully padded up so we can actually and yeah I took a few shots doing this I even got a cut lip and a few bruises but I managed to get up doing it


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## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> biting them, scratching them, shoving my fingers in their eyes to move them away



I think those are illegal moves in MMA, so obviously they don't count.

They can't count, there's no video of an MMA fight where those tactics are used, so they must be low percentage...


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Frankly this is the last I'm going to say. Yes bjj and wrestling CAN be useful to some extent in self defence but there's a HUGE amount of holes in the grappling game for self defence. Holes that need to be filled by knowing how to strike. I've been doing bjj for over a year and the way I roll is absolutely not the way I'd defend myself on the floor not in a millions. In fact there's very few things that I've learnt in bjj that I'd ever attempt in a real situation. I enjoy bjj for what it is. A sport, a workout, a social activity and fighting wise it's good for pressure testing, problem and staying calm in a bad position. That's all I've got to say


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> I think those are illegal moves in MMA, so obviously they don't count.
> 
> They can't count, there's no video of an MMA fight where those tactics are used, so they must be low percentage...


Ah yeah my bad the street referee would have to take a point...and if I did again he'd have to dq me and then I'd have to stop fighting these people attacker and I'd be sent home before I got to finish my fight.....that wouldn't be very good


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## jobo (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You're going to be trying to kick people away and trying to stand up while 2 people are standing over you (or one is on top of you) socking and kicking you in the face and head? Are you serious?
> 
> Edit: You don't "hold" someone in the guard. You break their posture and either choke, sweep, or whatever you need to do. Once you're done with assailant on top of you, you can then deal with the boot kicker.


But that briNgs up bjj kryptonite, TWO people,,, oooo


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Yes by moving back kicking at them so they haven't got a chance to get on me then when I get distance stand up. If they are on me I'm going to be hitting them elbowing them, biting them, scratching them, shoving my fingers in their eyes to move them away, is it guaranteed to work? No of course not but it's a much better option than playing leg locks or guard.



Kicking, scratching, punching, and elbowing while on your back with a guy on top of you socking you in the face, and another guy kicking you in the head.









> And before you say it yes I have trained it.



I'm sure you have.


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

jobo said:


> But that briNgs up bjj kryptonite, TWO people,,, oooo



Frankly if you're in that dire situation Bjj is probably your best bet of getting out of that situation with the least damage done to your body.


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## jobo (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Kicking, scratching, punching, and elbowing while on your back with a guy on top of you socking you in the face, and another guy kicking you in the head.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, but thats rather the point, going on to the floor if your own volition, is not a wise move if yoUr out numbered,


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## jobo (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Frankly if you're in that dire situation Bjj is probably your best bet of getting out of that situation with the least damage done to your body.


What better than knocking one over with the first pounch and the second with the second, how is bjj better ?


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

jobo said:


> Yes, but thats rather the point, going on to the floor if your own volition, is not a wise move if yoUr out numbered,



That wasn't the scenario. The scenario was that Headhunter said he would never use the guard if someone was on top of him. How he got on his back is anyone's guess, but if you're on your back and someone is on top of you, you should probably use the guard.



jobo said:


> What better than knocking one over with the first pounch and the second with the second, how is bjj better ?



You don't want to be trading punches with someone on top of you. 

How is Bjj better? Because we know stuff like "if he's on top I'll just sock him and knock him off" is nonsense.


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Frankly if you're in that dire situation Bjj is probably your best bet of getting out of that situation with the least damage done to your body.


Wow....those bjj guys have really brainwashed you


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## jobo (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> That wasn't the scenario. The scenario was that Headhunter said he would never use the guard if someone was on top of him. How he got on his back is anyone's guess, but if you're on your back and someone is on top of you, you should probably use the guard.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't want to be trading punches with someone on top of you.


Have you been drinking, why are they on top of me, i go to great lenths not to be lay on the floor


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## jobo (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Wow....those bjj guys have really brainwashed you


I wouldnt diss, bjj, i think its great with some notable limitations, but bjj guys just diss every thing but bjj


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## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

jobo said:


> Have you been drinking, why are they on top of me, i go to great lenths not to be lay on the floor



Perhaps you were sucker punched? Perhaps you got tackled? Perhaps someone snatched you up and slammed you onto the ground? If you're a woman, add more possible ways you can end up in that position.

You can try to avoid being in that situation, but that doesn't mean that it can't happen to you.


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## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Kicking, scratching, punching, and elbowing while on your back with a guy on top of you socking you in the face, and another guy kicking you in the head.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's a much a better option than trying to grab an arm that's flailing around like crazy or using both your arms and your legs to try a leg lock which leaves you completely defenceless. I'm saying my ways going to work either. Being on the floor is a very dangerous place to be and either way your likely to take a beating but I'd much rather have the chance to actually fight back then just sit there with my legs around one guy while the others kick the hell out of me. Like the old saying goes. If I'm going out I'm going out fighting 

And yes I have I really don't care if you believe me or not but I have done simple as that.


----------



## jobo (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Perhaps you were sucker punched? Perhaps you got tackled? Perhaps someone snatched you up and slammed you onto the ground? If you're a woman, add more possible ways you can end up in that position.
> 
> You can try to avoid being in that situation, but that doesn't mean that it can't happen to you.


Well no, but your mo, is to choose to go to the floor, which if there are two of them is frankly stupid,


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

jobo said:


> I wouldnt diss, bjj, i think its great with some notable limitations, but bjj guys just diss every thing but bjj


Pretty much yeah. Bjj guys seem to think what works on the mat will automatically work on the street and that a fight is exactly as a roll. Nope.

Heck even the Gracie's know you need striking....Royce Gracie is a shotokan black belt if I'm not mistaken and has trained Muay Thai. Renzo Gracie has also trained Muay Thai.

The whole 90% of fights go to the ground is pure propaganda. There's 0 statistical proof of that at all.

I have nothing against bjj at all. But the guys who think every fight will just be oh I'll just double leg and then rear naked choke them...nah not likely to be that easy


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> It's a much a better option than trying to grab an arm that's flailing around like crazy or using both your arms and your legs to try a leg lock which leaves you completely defenceless. I'm saying my ways going to work either. Being on the floor is a very dangerous place to be and either way your likely to take a beating but I'd much rather have the chance to actually fight back then just sit there with my legs around one guy while the others kick the hell out of me. Like the old saying goes. If I'm going out I'm going out fighting



Uh, who told you to try to "grab an arm that's flailing around" while in guard? Also every leg lock doesn't keep you completely defenseless. Some leg locks give you enough space between yourself and your attacker that they can't reach you.

Yeah, you're going to take a beating, but its pretty nuts to try to fight your way out of the bottom in the method you're describing. But to each their own.



> And yes I have I really don't care if you believe me or not but I have done simple as that.



Okay.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well no, but your mo, is to choose to go to the floor, which if there are two of them is frankly stupid,



Against two people? Probably not. Against two people I would more than likely use a throw or a standing choke or break.


----------



## jobo (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Against two people? Probably not. Against two people I would more than likely use a throw or a standing choke or break.


So why not punch them instead ?


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Against two people? Probably not. Against two people I would more than likely use a throw or a standing choke or break.


So while you're standing choking this one guy what's the other guy doing? He stop for a smoke break?


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

jobo said:


> So why not punch them instead ?



Because I don't want to break my hand, and punching leaves you open to counters.

Don't get me wrong, I've trained boxing and karate and I know how to punch, but honestly I think a better option is close the distance, clench and go from there.


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Uh, who told you to try to "grab an arm that's flailing around" while in guard? Also every leg lock doesn't keep you completely defenseless. Some leg locks give you enough space between yourself and your attacker that they can't reach you.
> 
> Yeah, you're going to take a beating, but its pretty nuts to try to fight your way out of the bottom in the method you're describing. But to each their own.
> 
> ...


No one. Because arms aren't flailing around in bjj like they'd be in a fight. In bjj they're just trying to either grab your wrists, grab your collar, push your leg or grab your belt. In fight they're trying to punch you with pull power coming straight towards your face.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> So while you're standing choking this one guy what's the other guy doing? He stop for a smoke break?



Why don't you tell me what he's doing? Let's say for example his buddy tried to tackle me, and I put him in a standing guillotine, what's his buddy doing?



Headhunter said:


> No one. Because arms aren't flailing around in bjj like they'd be in a fight. In bjj they're just trying to either grab your wrists, grab your collar, push your leg or grab your belt. In fight they're trying to punch you with pull power coming straight towards your face.



So your Bjj gym never drilled or practiced getting socked in the face or punched while in guard?

For shame.


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Why don't you tell me what he's doing? Let's say for example his buddy tried to tackle me, and I put him in a standing guillotine, what's his buddy doing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Um punching you in the head because your choking his friend....


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Um punching you in the head because your choking his friend....



So why wouldn't I be moving around, putting his friend's body between myself and his buddy trying to sock me?

Common sense.


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## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> So why wouldn't I be moving around, putting his friend's body between myself and his buddy trying to sock me?
> 
> Common sense.



You know what else is common sense?

Shoot the hostage.

Or more in context - sweep my friend's legs out if you put him in the way.

Then hey, there's you trying to hold him up, that'll slow you down.


----------



## jobo (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Because I don't want to break my hand, and punching leaves you open to counters.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I've trained boxing and karate and I know how to punch, but honestly I think a better option is close the distance, clench and go from there.


So you atleast Admit that punching is a valid option, ?, which goes against what you have posted thus far, it only leaves you open to counters if you dont knock them over and clinching leaves you open to counters as well


----------



## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Because I don't want to break my hand



Learn how and when to punch properly then.



Hanzou said:


> and punching leaves you open to counters.



And using both your arms to try to grapple doesn't?

That just reinforces my belief that you don't know how to punch.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> You know what else is common sense?
> 
> Shoot the hostage.
> 
> ...



Look at pictures of the standing guillotine to see that sweeping your friends leg isnt an option. Additionally he has about 5-10 seconds before he's unconscious, and then I'm coming after you.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> Learn how and when to punch properly then.



Even pro boxers damage their hands from boxing.



> And using both your arms to try to grapple doesn't?



As much as whiffing a punch? Nope.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

jobo said:


> So you atleast Admit that punching is a valid option, ?, which goes against what you have posted thus far, it only leaves you open to counters if you dont knock them over and clinching leaves you open to counters as well



Of course a punch is valid for SD. I never said differently.


----------



## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Look at pictures of the standing guillotine to see that sweeping your friends leg isnt an option. Additionally he has about 5-10 seconds before he's unconscious, and then I'm coming after you.



Yeah, ok, whatever.

You seem to be of the opinion that you are absolutely impervious to striking because you can grapple.

Not only is that hugely overconfident, it's also crap.

I'm guessing you've never bothered to properly train a real striking art.


----------



## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Look at pictures of the standing guillotine to see that sweeping your friends leg isnt an option. Additionally he has about 5-10 seconds before he's unconscious, and then I'm coming after you.



Oh, also...

You have "my friend" in a standing guillotine, that means both your hands are tied up and your head is completely exposed.

That means I can kick you in the side of the head, right behind your ear.

That's going to take a whole lot less than 5-10 seconds before you're unconscious and then you're coming after nobody.


----------



## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> As much as whiffing a punch? Nope.



Seriously, what?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 18, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> The counter to grappling is grappling.
> The counter to strikiing is striking or grappling.


I've successfully used striking as a counter to grappling. In 'street fights' as a teen, and against trained judoka in sparring.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> Yeah, ok, whatever.
> 
> You seem to be of the opinion that you are absolutely impervious to striking because you can grapple.



How is placing an object (in this case a person you control by the head and neck) between yourself and an advancing adversary saying that I'm impervious to a strike? The point is that once I have the guillotine locked in, his buddy has seconds to stop it before his friend goes to la-la land. If he's already semi unconscious, I can release the hold and let his friend fall face first into the concrete.



> Not only is that hugely overconfident, it's also crap.



If you say so.



> I'm guessing you've never bothered to properly train a real striking art.



I have instructor grade in Shotokan karate and I've studied boxing for years.



pdg said:


> Oh, also...
> 
> You have "my friend" in a standing guillotine, that means both your hands are tied up and your head is completely exposed.
> 
> That means I can kick you in the side of the head, right behind your ear.



That also means your friend is between me and you and I can still move my upper body and head while I'm choking your friend. Kicking me right behind the ear when your friend is between us and I can still move is a pretty precise target to pull off in that situation don't you think?



> That's going to take a whole lot less than 5-10 seconds before you're unconscious and then you're coming after nobody



If you land the kick.


----------



## TMA17 (Sep 18, 2018)

I think it all goes back to the original post/video, you ideally need striking and grappling.

I have not been in any fights and hope I don't ever get in one.  I've always watched a lot of boxing/UFC and youtube videos of fights.  What I've observed is people can and do get knocked out and submitted.

Using myself as an example, I'm on the tall and lean side.  Speed and agility has always been my best attribute.  I like using the jab and boxing.  I've always liked striking arts.  However, if a guy 50lbs heavier than me took me down, I'd be in trouble because I have no grappling experience.  I could never see myself jabbing a big wrestler who is about to try and take me down.  The chances of me stopping him are slim.

Grappling is imperitive to know.  The more I think about it, the more likely I think I would use it in a self defense situation.  I don't think taking someone down is that hard.  I played football and while different, I know how to tackle someone.  Rather than bust my hands up, part of me thinks taking someone down and subuing them would be less risky and a better option, but only in some cases.

That one UFC video was ridiculous.  Those two guys were just throwing wild punches.  I don't know why one didn't go low  and try a takedown.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

This is how fast you can get put out by a (sloppy) guillotine choke, and supposedly this guy just picked it up from watching a video or UFC..

The kid is out about mid-way through the gif.


----------



## Buka (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> You know what else is common sense?
> 
> Shoot the hostage.
> 
> ...



You wouldn’t really sweep your buddy’s legs, would you? That would be cold.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 18, 2018)

Buka said:


> You wouldn’t really sweep your buddy’s legs, would you? That would be cold.


If the buddy was a boxer, you know you would


----------



## drop bear (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> So why wouldn't I be moving around, putting his friend's body between myself and his buddy trying to sock me?
> 
> Common sense.



Because you have a really bad lever. Basically I can put one hand on a bum cheek and you would not be able to swing the guy towards me.

As soon as I am at the side of my guy he will no longer be able to block me in any way. 

And then I get unopposed shots until you let go.


----------



## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Buka said:


> You wouldn’t really sweep your buddy’s legs, would you? That would be cold.



Damn right I would.

Serves them right for being silly enough to give up their head in the first place.


----------



## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I have instructor grade in Shotokan karate and I've studied boxing for years.



I forgot this...

Having an instructor grade doesn't mean you're any good at it.

And boxing is great, against a boxer (or someone who wants to try outboxing you).

But it really only considers less than half of your possible striking tools, it's close range and has no viable low defence - just ask @Buka about how hard it is to sweep a boxer.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Because you have a really bad lever. Basically I can put one hand on a bum cheek and you would not be able to swing the guy towards me.
> 
> As soon as I am at the side of my guy he will no longer be able to block me in any way.
> 
> And then I get unopposed shots until you let go.



Which is more than enough time to send your friend to dream-land.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> I forgot this...
> 
> Having an instructor grade doesn't mean you're any good at it.
> 
> ...



Eh, Boxing is great against just about anyone. You just have to be careful when you're punching hard parts of the body. I used to carry a pair of leather gloves with me in case I ever got into a fist fight.


----------



## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Which is more than enough time to send your friend to dream-land.



So you maintain your grip while getting punched or kicked in the head?

I think you're already in dream land.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> So you maintain your grip while getting punched or kicked in the head?
> 
> I think you're already in dream land.



No, I maintain my grip after I lock in the choke, back away from goon #2, play keep away for as long as I can, and then release when goon #2 gets too close for comfort. All I need is about 5-6 seconds and the chokee has a good chance of landing face first into the concrete, even if he isnt fully unconscious.


----------



## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> No, I maintain my grip after I lock in the choke, back away from goon #2, play keep away for as long as I can, and then release when goon #2 gets too close for comfort. All I need is about 5-6 seconds and the chokee has a good chance of landing face first into the concrete, even if he isnt fully unconscious.



5-6 seconds is a very long time.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> 5-6 seconds is a very long time.



Far less time than it would take for you to knock someone out with a behind the ear head kick.


----------



## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Eh, Boxing is great against just about anyone. You just have to be careful when you're punching hard parts of the body. I used to carry a pair of leather gloves with me in case I ever got into a fist fight.



No, it's really not.

It's great against the idiots in street fight videos who swing wildly.

It's great against people who default to boxing methodology - or the type who train kicks but fall into poor kickboxing mode under pressure (like the kickboxing league that had to introduce a rule for minimum amount of kicks per round because nobody was kicking).

It's great against boxers.

Against someone who knows how to maintain distance at kick range, not so much.

From an orthodox boxing stance, I'm 3 feet further away for kicking than I can reach with a jab - that's at least two slides away. As long as my footwork is fast enough to maintain that distance I can reach them but they can't reach me.


----------



## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Far less time than it would take for you to knock someone out with a behind the ear head kick.



I require evidence of that.


----------



## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Far less time than it would take for you to knock someone out with a behind the ear head kick.








Even including the posturing, that's less than 5 seconds.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> I require evidence of that.



See the gif I posted.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> No, it's really not.
> 
> It's great against the idiots in street fight videos who swing wildly.
> 
> ...


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> Even including the posturing, that's less than 5 seconds.



Where's the dude in between getting guillotined?


----------



## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Where's the dude in between getting guillotined?



He's imaginary.

If he was there, it'd save the hassle of faking the punch.


----------



## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> See the gif I posted.



That gif in no way demonstrates that knockout by standing guillotine is faster than knockout by head kick.


----------



## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


>



The first guy looked like he was doing non-contact point sparring.

Second guy in the TKD dobok fought like he deserved every inch of that white belt - maybe a yellow belt would fit.

Third guy, totally got dominated - that white belt suited him even more.

I didn't see a single well executed kick throughout the video, but they did alright for beginners.

Poor example though.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> That gif in no way demonstrates that knockout by standing guillotine is faster than knockout by head kick.



No, it demonstrates how quickly you can go unconscious from even a poorly executed guillotine. And unlike the head kick, once its locked in that person is going to sleep in a very short amount of time.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> The first guy looked like he was doing non-contact point sparring.
> 
> Second guy in the TKD dobok fought like he deserved every inch of that white belt - maybe a yellow belt would fit.
> 
> ...



You can push this to higher levels and, the results will be exactly the same unless it's a full contact karate variant like kyokushin.


----------



## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> No, it demonstrates how quickly you can go unconscious from even a poorly executed guillotine. And unlike the head kick, once its locked in that person is going to sleep in a very short amount of time.



5-6 seconds (your timeframe) against a fraction of a second?

How do maths work where you are?

And, the guillotine still relies on actually getting the position in the first place (which is far more complex than a kick) and then actually getting it locked in.

So maths again - half a second to execute the kick, plus falling down time, about a second.

I'll allow everything falling into place for the guillotine and the opponent offering no resistance to getting it locked in, so let's say 1-2 seconds to apply, plus 5-6 seconds to pass out. That's 6-8 seconds.

In my version of maths, 1 is less than 6-8.


----------



## pdg (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You can push this to higher levels and, the results will be exactly the same unless it's a full contact karate variant like kyokushin.



The results will only be the same if they continue to apply in the same fashion and the comparison is the same.

In that video, the boxing guy far outclassed the others. He wasn't exactly great, but they were worse.

Take that to a higher level and put a very good boxer against a mediocre 'karate' guy - yes, the boxer will very likely dominate utterly.

Go even higher and put an excellent boxer against a very good 'karateka' - again, the boxer will probably be on top.

Match the skill levels (or do the unthinkable and actually swap skill levels, which I've never seen done - probably because it'd make the boxer look bad) and the outcome will be different.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 18, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Far less time than it would take for you to knock someone out with a behind the ear head kick.



At four to five punches a second?


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You can push this to higher levels and, the results will be exactly the same unless it's a full contact karate variant like kyokushin.


Seriously you're embarrassing yourself now


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> 5-6 seconds (your timeframe) against a fraction of a second?
> 
> How do maths work where you are?
> 
> ...



The choke was established from the opening of the assailant's attack. Are we now changing the situation with the second person throwing a perfect fantasy head kick at the exact same time as their friend rushing in for a tackle?



pdg said:


> The results will only be the same if they continue to apply in the same fashion and the comparison is the same.
> 
> In that video, the boxing guy far outclassed the others. He wasn't exactly great, but they were worse.
> 
> ...



Boxers tend to outclass karateka on a fairly regular basis.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

drop bear said:


> At four to five punches a second?



What?



Headhunter said:


> Seriously you're embarrassing yourself now



If you think the typical karate student is up to par with a standard boxing student, you're the one embarrassing yourself.


----------



## jobo (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> What?
> 
> 
> 
> If you think the typical karate student is up to par with a standard boxing student, you're the one embarrassing yourself.


Show me a typical karate students then ? You must have one in mind to make this comparison ?


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> What?
> 
> 
> 
> If you think the typical karate student is up to par with a standard boxing student, you're the one embarrassing yourself.


You really are making yourself look silly.....a boxer can beat a karate guy and karate guy can beat a boxer. It all depends on a number of different factors including pure luck. There's only one place where a boxer is guaranteed to always against a karate guy...and that's a boxing ring anywhere else it's impossible to know


----------



## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> The choke was established from the opening of the assailant's attack. Are we now changing the situation with the second person throwing a perfect fantasy head kick at the exact same time as their friend rushing in for a tackle?



The situation is based on the posted videos being one on one.

So let's say we've agreed to fight, the preamble is out of the way and it's time.

I'm going to be doing everything I can to maintain my preferred range of 4-6 feet.

Exactly how are you establishing a standing guillotine on me? Magic?

So let's now say you try to shoot for a dlt from that range - if I can't sidestep or get over the top and introducing you to my knee is such fantasy, then I guess you're in a great position for me to guillotine in return. But because it takes so damn long to have any effect and you might actually have a knife within range of your two completely unrestricted arms it's my very last option.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

jobo said:


> Show me a typical karate students then ? You must have one in mind to make this comparison ?


----------



## jobo (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


>


So you have estabished that he, they are typical how ?


----------



## oftheherd1 (Sep 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> I can do a kick to an opponent's leg hard enough to bend their knee backwards in well under a second, and I don't have to lay on the floor (in all that glass) to do it.
> 
> Go on, say I'm wrong.





Hanzou said:


> You're wrong because even professional fighters are unable to accomplish that feat on a regular basis.



I've tried to stay out of this thread because it seems to me like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.  But the above quote just baffles me.  What art that teaches kicks does not teach and require its practitioners to kick with speed and strength and always try to kick faster and harder?  And teach places to kick that will take out a leg (granted, probably at higher belts)?

To remove any out about "regular basis," perhaps you should define that.  If you say a professional fighter cannot do that regularly when he wants to in different fights (different because he shouldn't have to do that many times in the same fight), he needs practice and may not be ready for professional fighting.  If you say he cannot do that regularly in the same fight, again, he needs practice and may not be ready for professional fighting.

If course it is a bit of a moot point since in professional fighting there are rules to prevent injuries that would prevent opponents from continuing professional fighting.  I'm not sure where we got off on this thread being about only professional fighting.  Regardless, move your angels over.  Mine can beat yours.


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


>


So you've purposefully gone and looked for the worst videos you can find....nice reasoning..


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> The situation is based on the posted videos being one on one.
> 
> So let's say we've agreed to fight, the preamble is out of the way and it's time.
> 
> ...



How about you go to a Bjj or MMA gym with a recording device and challenge them to take you down. If you can avoid their takedowns via what you're saying here, you'll be a very wealthy man.

But we both know you're not going to do that dont we?


----------



## jobo (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> How about you go to a Bjj or MMA gym with a recording device and challenge them to take you down. If you can avoid their takedowns via what you're saying here, you'll be a very wealthy man.
> 
> But we both know you're not going to do that dont we?


Ive seen lots a bjj take downs FAIL, so its far from impossible to not get taken down


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> How about you go to a Bjj or MMA gym with a recording device and challenge them to take you down. If you can avoid their takedowns via what you're saying here, you'll be a very wealthy man.
> 
> But we both know you're not going to do that dont we?



I'll do it next time I go up there no problem....if anyone actually agrees to do it


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

jobo said:


> So you have estabished that he, they are typical how ?



That's the standards I've seen in multiple karate and tkd schools I've visited.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I've tried to stay out of this thread because it seems to me like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.  But the above quote just baffles me.  What art that teaches kicks does not teach and require its practitioners to kick with speed and strength and always try to kick faster and harder?  And teach places to kick that will take out a leg (granted, probably at higher belts)?
> 
> To remove any out about "regular basis," perhaps you should define that.  If you say a professional fighter cannot do that regularly when he wants to in different fights (different because he shouldn't have to do that many times in the same fight), he needs practice and may not be ready for professional fighting.  If you say he cannot do that regularly in the same fight, again, he needs practice and may not be ready for professional fighting.
> 
> If course it is a bit of a moot point since in professional fighting there are rules to prevent injuries that would prevent opponents from continuing professional fighting.  I'm not sure where we got off on this thread being about only professional fighting.  Regardless, move your angels over.  Mine can beat yours.



My point was that unless you're regularly injuring your sparring partners with leg kicks, you can't say that in a SD situation you can throw a leg kick and instantly destroy their knee. Again, it CAN happen, but it's not a given.



Headhunter said:


> So you've purposefully gone and looked for the worst videos you can find....nice reasoning..



Oh no, I've definitely seen worse.


----------



## jobo (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> That's the standards I've seen in multiple karate and tkd schools I've visited.


 so youve estabkished thats the typical standard world wide , how? have visited and sampled a meanibgful %  of all the karate schools in exsistance, and your measurement criteria of ability is what ?

Multiple can be as low as two, lets have your working out


----------



## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> My point was that unless you're regularly injuring your sparring partners with leg kicks, you can't say that in a SD situation you can throw a leg kick and instantly destroy their knee. Again, it CAN happen, but it's not a given.



Exactly the same can be said for a dlt or guillotine.

Unless you're reliably getting the move locked and regularly causing your sparring partners to lose unconsciousness then you can't say it'll happen with any reliability in a SD situation.

Sure, you might get them to tap sometimes - but if the tap option wasn't open would they just pass out, or would they fight like a whipped alligator to get you off?

It CAN happen, but to say it will or that it's a given is massively presumptuous. Especially against someone with the wherewithal to exploit other avenues.


----------



## jobo (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> My point was that unless you're regularly injuring your sparring partners with leg kicks, you can't say that in a SD situation you can throw a leg kick and instantly destroy their knee. Again, it CAN happen, but it's not a given.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh no, I've definitely seen worse.


On that basis unless your regularly breaking yOur sparing partneRs ankle, you cant say with certainity that you could do that in a sd situation either


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

jobo said:


> so youve estabkished thats the typical standard world wide , how? have visited and sampled a meanibgful %  of all the karate schools in exsistance, and your measurement criteria of ability is what ?
> 
> Multiple can be as low as two, lets have your working out



This is a completely off topic conversation. If you'd like, we can discuss it over in the karate forum.


----------



## jobo (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> This is a completely off topic conversation. If you'd like, we can discuss it over in the karate forum.


No its complete on topic of the wild claim you made to support your point in this discusion, you either need to with draw it or provied evidence to suport it

You have a history of just making things up and decklining to support them


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> Exactly the same can be said for a dlt or guillotine.
> 
> Unless you're reliably getting the move locked and regularly causing your sparring partners to lose unconsciousness then you can't say it'll happen with any reliability in a SD situation.
> 
> ...



The difference being that people tap when they're in the choke and can't escape it. They're tapping to avoid passing out, because passing out can occur within seconds. Sometimes people pass out while sparring because they black out before they can even tap. Thus while you're sparring you're learning entries, locks, and set ups in order to get you into the choke, and you're learning how to apply it to various body types, weights, and levels of aggression.

In a real fight you just hold the choke until the person passes out.

The same applies to the DLT. In sparring you're constantly perfecting the technique, and since it's relatively safe to do the takedown over and over, you get very good at taking someone down.

So while I can practice the guillotine over and over again on a resisting opponent, you can't consistently kick out your sparring partner's kneecaps.

Frankly that's the advantage that grappling has over striking.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

jobo said:


> No its complete on topic of the wild claim you made to support your point in this discusion, you either need to with draw it or provied evidence to suport it
> 
> You have a history of just making things up and decklining to support them



The video evidence supports it just fine. You'd be hard pressed to find a boxing gym on the level of those karate schools, yet the latter are all over the place.


----------



## jobo (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> The video evidence supports it just fine. You'd be hard pressed to find a boxing gym on the level of those karate schools, yet the latter are all over the place.


What videio evidence would that be, thats a sample if ONE, yOu cant make pRojections on a sample of ONE,

You claim was that that is the Typical stabdard of all karate schools, now lets have some supporting evidence of that you claim as a fact


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

jobo said:


> What videio evidence would that be, thats a sample if ONE, yOu cant make pRojections on a sample of ONE,
> 
> You claim was that that is the Typical stabdard of all karate schools, now lets have some supporting evidence of that you claim as a fact



You must have missed the second video where multiple karate schools were shown.

Here's the sequel btw, showing even more such schools;


----------



## jobo (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You must have missed the second video where multiple karate schools were shown.
> 
> Here's the sequel btw, showing even more such schools;


No a representative sample of all the karate schools in the world, theres selection bias, those vids or on yiu tube because they are so poor and people laugh at them,


----------



## jobo (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You must have missed the second video where multiple karate schools were shown.
> 
> Here's the sequel btw, showing even more such schools;


And all that one proves is people look silly doing kata, which is a reasonab!y well recognised fact, i certainly do


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

jobo said:


> No a representative sample of all the karate schools in the world....



If you say so.



jobo said:


> And all that one proves is people look silly doing kata, which is a reasonab!y well recognised fact, i certainly do



Look a bit closer. They weren't in synch, missed steps, performed technique half-arsed, and yet were still rewarded for doing a good job. In my old karate dojo we were forced to do kata until we were all in synch and took the techniques seriously.


----------



## jobo (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> If you say so.
> 
> 
> 
> Look a bit closer. They weren't in synch, missed steps, performed technique half-arsed, and yet were still rewarded for doing a good job. In my old karate dojo we were forced to do kata until we were all in synch and took the techniques seriously.


But thats compketly pointless, you may as well do syncranise dancing, kata is a personal development thing, theres no benifit at all in being in syn with others, unless your going to fight as a team, what reward did they get ? Missed anyone handing over the keys to a jag  !


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

jobo said:


> But thats compketly pointless, you may as well do syncranise dancing, kata is a personal development thing, theres no benifit at all in being in syn with others, unless your going to fight as a team



Thank you for proving my point. Your post is yet another example of the falling standards in karate.


----------



## jobo (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Thank you for proving my point. Your post is yet another example of the falling standards in karate.


We are talkibg about fighting ability, for which the kata has some benifits, what benifit to fighting ability does doibg it in time with 19 other people give you

You claim they got a reward, what reward did they get ?


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

jobo said:


> We are talkibg about fighting ability, for which the kata has some benifits, what benifit to fighting ability does doibg it in time with 19 other people give you



It's all about discipline and standards. If a karate school is willing to let their students get away with sloppy kata, what else are they willing to let their students get away with?



> You claim they got a reward, what reward did they get ?



Their black belts.


----------



## jobo (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> It's all about discipline and standards. If a karate school is willing to let their students get away with sloppy kata, what else are they willing to let their students get away with?
> 
> 
> 
> Their black belts.


Thats whats called an appeal to incredulity,

So i ask again, what benifit does being in sync in a kata give you for actual fighting and what reward did the kata folk in the vid get

You havent made the reward thing up as well have you?

Nb Recieving a blackbelt is an award, not a reward


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

jobo said:


> Thats whats called an appeal to incredulity,
> 
> So i ask again, what benifit does being in sync in a kata give you for actual fighting and what reward did the kata folk in the vid get



In synch means that you're all doing the techniques and the movements correctly. When you're not in synch, that means that someone in the group is not doing the techniques and movements correctly. Which is why I also mentioned the technique being off. If you're not doing the techniques correctly, you're wasting your time. If a school is okay with kata being sloppy and their students being too lazy to do technique correctly, that's a sign of more serious problems with the instruction itself, and yes that can trickle down to fighting ability. Again, if an instructor is letting their black belts do sloppy kata, then it isn't too much of a stretch to believe that he's okay with everything else being sloppy as well.

Considering that almost all of the people in those videos were out of synch indicates that they were almost all doing things incorrectly. And again, these students are black belts, not novices.



> You havent made the reward thing up as well have you?



You don't consider earning a black belt a reward for years of dedication and skill attainment in your art of choice?

Interesting.


----------



## jobo (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> In synch means that you're all doing the techniques and the movements correctly. When you're not in synch, that means that someone in the group is not doing the techniques and movements correctly. Which is why I also mentioned the technique being off. If you're not doing the techniques correctly, you're wasting your time. Considering that almost all of the people in those videos were out of synch indicates that they were almost all doing things incorrectly. And again, these students are black belts, not novices.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No answer the xpecific question, what benifit to fighting does being in syn with 19 Others give you., the abswer is non or there would be troups of cheer leaders kicking ***

And that would only be true if sync kata was part of the black belt test, which you have no idea if it was or wasnt,.

And no i dont consider A black belt a reward for effort, just like i dont consider my pay check a reward, i earnt ut uts mine, no one is giving me a reward


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

jobo said:


> No answer the xpecific question, what benifit to fighting does being in syn with 19 Others give you., the abswer is non or there would be troups of cheer leaders kicking ***



See my edited post.



> And that would only be true if sync kata was part of the black belt test, which you have no idea if it was or wasnt,.



I have yet to see a karate dojo where a group performing kata was not part of belt testing.


----------



## jobo (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> See my edited post.
> 
> 
> 
> I have yet to see a karate dojo where a group performing kata was not part of belt testing.


Which tajes us back to what % of the world wide katate schools you have visited durring black belt test ?


----------



## jobo (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> In synch means that you're all doing the techniques and the movements correctly. When you're not in synch, that means that someone in the group is not doing the techniques and movements correctly. Which is why I also mentioned the technique being off. If you're not doing the techniques correctly, you're wasting your time. If a school is okay with kata being sloppy and their students being too lazy to do technique correctly, that's a sign of more serious problems with the instruction itself, and yes that can trickle down to fighting ability. Again, if an instructor is letting their black belts do sloppy kata, then it isn't too much of a stretch to believe that he's okay with everything else being sloppy as well.
> 
> Considering that almost all of the people in those videos were out of synch indicates that they were almost all doing things incorrectly. And again, these students are black belts, not novices.
> 
> ...


No still no answer, 

What beNfit to fighting does sync kata give you,


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

jobo said:


> No still no answer,
> 
> What beNfit to fighting does sync kata give you,



I've already answered your question. Sorry it's not sufficient enough for you.


----------



## jobo (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I've already answered your question. Sorry it's not sufficient enough for you.


Yiuve nkt answered it at all, just some meally mouthed h nonsence that it COuldtrickle down to fighting ability, and equally it could not, and as this is is yet another one of your claims the burden of proof that it does, rest squarely with you


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

jobo said:


> Yiuve nkt answered it at all, just some meally mouthed h nonsence that it COuldtrickle down to fighting ability



?????

What?


----------



## jobo (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> ?????
> 
> What?


Put up or shut up ?


----------



## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> So while I can practice the guillotine over and over again on a resisting opponent, you can't consistently kick out your sparring partner's kneecaps.
> 
> Frankly that's the advantage that grappling has over striking.



Again, not really an advantage.

Because in sparring I can practice the entry and execution and pull the strike.

I can then recreate the motion against things like boards or planks and break them.

So, I can reasonably extrapolate that if I didn't pull the strike it would work just the same as against something else breakable.

Likewise, I can pretty reliably make contact with a pulled head kick against someone who expects me to do it, and I can break at the same height with the same kick - so against someone who isn't expecting it the chances are pretty high that they're going down.

You can practice choking someone out up until the tap, where you 'pull' it.

What you can't do is say that it'd definitely work against an opponent that resists outwith the rules of your roll, or prove that your opponent tapped because they were close to passing out.


That's the advantage striking practice has over grappling


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

jobo said:


> Put up or shut up ?



It's already been put up. Moving on.



pdg said:


> Again, not really an advantage.
> 
> Because in sparring I can practice the entry and execution and pull the strike.



Which isn't full power.



> I can then recreate the motion against things like boards or planks and break them.



Boards and planks aren't moving bone, flesh and tissue. Also no part of the body is as flat or stiff as a board or a plank.



> So, I can reasonably extrapolate that if I didn't pull the strike it would work just the same as against something else breakable.



No you can't.


----------



## jobo (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> It's already been put up. Moving on.


That about half a dozen wild claims you have made in this thread alone, you equivicate and claim you have evidence and then just move on, then off to the next thread to make more wild claims and then,,, well you know the rest


----------



## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Which isn't full power



And you always use full power in a roll then?



Hanzou said:


> Boards and planks aren't moving bone, flesh and tissue. Also no part of the body is as flat or stiff as a board or a plank



Flat or stiff really doesn't enter into it - I can do the same with something like bamboo, which is rounder and bendier than a leg.

But if I can hit a resisting and defending opponent with a slowed down pulled kick, what makes you think I couldn't do the same faster and harder?


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> And you always use full power in a roll then?



Rolling? Yes.



> Flat or stiff really doesn't enter into it - I can do the same with something like bamboo, which is rounder and bendier than a leg.



Little kids can break boards and blocks. If you honestly believe a 12 year old can disable an adult with kicks, you're living in fantasy land.



> But if I can hit a resisting and defending opponent with a slowed down pulled kick, what makes you think I couldn't do the same faster and harder?



You can hit them yes, but to say that you can consistently bend back knees and knock someone out with a head kick based on that form of practice is patent nonsense.


----------



## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Rolling? Yes.



I don't believe you. 

Or, you don't have much power to apply.



Hanzou said:


> Little kids can break boards and blocks. If you honestly believe a 12 year old can disable an adult with kicks, you're living in fantasy land.



I'd like to see a little kid break a 4" thick standing concrete block at head height.



Hanzou said:


> You can hit them yes, but to say that you can consistently bend back knees and knock someone out with a head kick based on that form of practice is patent nonsense.



Again, please use the quote function to show where I said I could do it consistently.

You're the one who reckons you can get a striker who knows what they're doing into a standing guillotine.


----------



## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

Oh, and I'll leave this here...


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> I don't believe you.
> 
> Or, you don't have much power to apply.



If you think I'm lying, you can go to any Bjj gym and experience this for yourself.



> I'd like to see a little kid break a 4" thick standing concrete block at head height.



I like how it went from boards and planks to concrete at a specified height.




> Again, please use the quote function to show where I said I could do it consistently.



You dared me to say that you couldn't do it in your opening post in this thread. Now you're saying you cant do it?



> You're the one who reckons you can get a striker who knows what they're doing into a standing guillotine.



If the striker screws up or winds up getting caught in a set up? Absolutely. The standing guillotine is a high percentage choke, and it has some excellent set ups against strikers. You should try it on your TKD friends sometime.


----------



## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I like how it went from boards and planks to concrete at a specified height.



I like how it initially went from me as an adult to a 12 year old.


----------



## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You dared me to say that you couldn't do it in your opening post in this thread. Now you're saying you cant do it?



No, I'm saying I can.

What I'm not saying is that I can do it 100% of the time against absolutely anyone.

Just like being able to get a choke on, it's situational as to reliability.


----------



## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

In essence, I simply don't believe that the only defence against grappling is grappling.

A grappler can defend against a striker, sure - but that's a failing on behalf of the striker.

A striker can also defend against a grappler though - but that's a failing on behalf of the grappler.

Whichever you choose, you're hoping the other fails (or you out skill them) because there are legitimate and more or less reliable defences both ways.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Sep 19, 2018)

jobo said:


> We are talkibg about fighting ability, for which the kata has some benifits, what benifit to fighting ability does doibg it in time with 19 other people give you
> 
> You claim they got a reward, what reward did they get ?



The above to give context to @Hanzou post below.



Hanzou said:


> It's all about discipline and standards. If a karate school is willing to let their students get away with sloppy kata, *what else are they willing to let their students get away with?*
> 
> Their black belts.



The bolded is a good question.  In the 2nd video you posted that school must have been willing to make a lot of compromises.  The underlined is only partially correct, and that in the context to my answer to the bolded question.  Black belts who can't break boards is a shame.  Whether lacking power or making the holder's hands the striking point.  Of course some looked to be moving the boards a little bit, but no wonder.




Hanzou said:


> My point was that unless you're regularly injuring your sparring partners with leg kicks, you can't say that in a SD situation you can throw a leg kick and instantly destroy their knee. Again, it CAN happen, but it's not a given.
> 
> Oh no, I've definitely seen worse.



I don't know about the karate you studied, but when I studied TKD in the 60s, we had things to actually kick, like bags and such.  Most of us would practice on our own at home or a gym to develop speed and accuracy.  The later was a big point with us; a part of control.  We practiced control, accuracy, power/power generation, and guess what, katas.  

If you can move a heavy or even light bag significantly, would that not indicate to you that you have power in you kick?  If you can hit the bag where you intended, would that not indicate you can kick accurately?  If you have a sufficiently accurate and powerful kick, do you doubt you could damage a knee or ankle or symphysis pubis?

If you say you have seen worse, I don't doubt it.  Although I wonder if your implied meaning there is none better (which I find hard to believe) is the reason you left the study of karate?  If you had previously said you just wanted to expand your abilities, I could understand and agree with that.  I always thought my brief stint in TKD helped me be a little better in Hapkido.  But your putting down karate, seemingly all of it, since you left karate rather than looking for another better school?  Sorry, but it makes me wonder if there is more fault with the school you attended, or you as a student of karate.  Either way ...  

Regardless, if you are really happy with your grappling, stay with it and get better all the time.  Just don't be afraid to compliment it with what you learned in Karate.


----------



## TMA17 (Sep 19, 2018)

It can go either way and based on your proficiency in grappling or striking, you can choose either. 

This upcoming fight between Khabib and McGregor is interesting for this reason as it puts a top level striker against one of the best grapplers.

Khabib is an outlier though as no one has been able to defeat him either way.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Sep 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> In essence, I simply don't believe that the only defence against grappling is grappling.
> 
> A grappler can defend against a striker, sure - but that's a failing on behalf of the striker.
> 
> A striker can also defend against a grappler though - but that's a failing on behalf of the grappler.



Are you saying the person, or the system?  I am not sure I agree with your generalization either way.  The bolded below might have more to do with it.



pdg said:


> Whichever you choose, you're hoping the other fails (*or you out skill them*) because there are legitimate and more or less reliable defences both ways.



Looking at the underlined above, I'm curious.  Are you referring to a particular fighting or grappling art, or all  arts, and particularly in regard to grappling arts?


----------



## oftheherd1 (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> It's already been put up. Moving on.







Hanzou said:


> Which isn't full power.



This is one thing I can't understand about what I guess was your karate training.  When I studied TKD, we were taught to always make a move at our maximum power, and always seek new maximums.  Along with that we were taught to learn better and better control.  When we were allowed to begin sparring, we would stop our kick or strike maybe three or four inches from our target.  As we gained more control, we would stop our kick or strike closer and closer to our target.  Really good students could get 1/2 to 1/4 inch from their target without striking it.  Of course with a board or brick or stone, one would strike inside or beyond the target.  We were taught that with that kind of control we could stop close to a practice opponent, or three inches inside an opponent who was trying to hurt us.

Don't they teach that in the striking arts anymore?




Hanzou said:


> Boards and planks aren't moving bone, flesh and tissue. Also no part of the body is as flat or stiff as a board or a plank.



No, but as I have mentioned before, it gives one an indication of one's speed, accuracy, and power.  Were you not taught to approach such practice with that goal in mind?



Hanzou said:


> No you can't.



How are you able to say that?  Any limitations that you or your acquaintances may have are not always true for others, especially those you don't personally know.

Craziness!  I'm out of this.  I'm going to take my angel off the pin and go home.


----------



## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Are you saying the person, or the system?  I am not sure I agree with your generalization either way.  The bolded below might have more to do with it.



Generally the person. Hardly ever the system. See below.



oftheherd1 said:


> Looking at the underlined above, I'm curious.  Are you referring to a particular fighting or grappling art, or all  arts, and particularly in regard to grappling arts?



Ok, so...

Being art independent, other than classifying as grappling or striking. Grappling may include rudimentary striking, and striking may include rudimentary grappling.

There are takedowns and submissions in TKD, but imo they're not very advanced (and rarely taught as such, if at all). I'm quite sure there are some strikes in something like BJJ, but I'd be very surprised if they were advanced in terms of technique or application.

A good grappler should generally beat a mediocre grappler, and should generally beat a mediocre striker.

A good striker should generally beat a mediocre striker, and should generally beat a mediocre grappler.

However, if a striker gets beaten by a grappler (of approximately the same skill level - and I'm in no way using belt colour as a reference point here) then the striker has failed by not being better.

And swap the words 'striker' and 'grappler' in the last paragraph.

If either outclasses the other, they should generally win. If they're about the same skill level, it should be down to luck or the other failing.

This really should apply across (almost) all arts.


----------



## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> This is one thing I can't understand about what I guess was your karate training.  When I studied TKD, we were taught to always make a move at our maximum power, and always seek new maximums.  Along with that we were taught to learn better and better control.  When we were allowed to begin sparring, we would stop our kick or strike maybe three or four inches from our target.  As we gained more control, we would stop our kick or strike closer and closer to our target.  Really good students could get 1/2 to 1/4 inch from their target without striking it.  Of course with a board or brick or stone, one would strike inside or beyond the target.  We were taught that with that kind of control we could stop close to a practice opponent, or three inches inside an opponent who was trying to hurt us.
> 
> Don't they teach that in the striking arts anymore?



Yes and no, based on my own experience.

In step sparring we're expected to aim to hit, and it's supposed to be up to the defender to defend.

When the defender counters, they should stop the technique at or nearly at the opponent - pretty much as you described above.

Beginners punch/kick/elbow/knee/etc. a good few inches away - as you move up a certain degree of contact is allowed/expected.

Free sparring is somewhat different, contact is fully expected, but in a controlled fashion.

Non contact free sparring is for kids, beginners and people who forget to take sparring kit


----------



## oftheherd1 (Sep 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> Ok, so...
> 
> Being art independent, other than classifying as grappling or striking. Grappling may include rudimentary striking, and striking may include rudimentary grappling.
> 
> ...



In the TKD I studied there was no grappling.  I presume that was true of all other TKD at the time, but I don't really know since I didn't study them or visit their schools.

The reason I asked the way I did is that in the Hapkido I studied, we specifically trained in techniques to defend against various grabs, strikes, kicks, throws, and other attacks.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Sep 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> Yes and no, based on my own experience.
> 
> In step sparring we're expected to aim to hit, and it's supposed to be up to the defender to defend.
> 
> ...



Did you wear any kind of sparring protection?  We did not.  In step sparring, if you were the defender, it was your responsibility to avoid being hit, but that was generally by a block, or newbies moving to the side until they gained skill and confidence in their blocks.  I hated getting blocked until my forearm got desensitized to take it.  

But full contact in sparring was not allowed.  A sufficiently skilled person who could just barely touch could do so, whether punch or kick, but that was rare.  

I studied briefly under a Moo Duc Kwan 2nd degree BB who used me to demonstrate control to the other students.  He had me go to a horse stance and kicked at my nose.  Couldn't have missed the tip of my nose by more than a millimeter with a fast full force front snap kick up and over my head.  That was more than sixty years ago and I still vividly remember the breeze on the tip of my nose, but no touch, and he fluidly back to a fighting stance.


----------



## TMA17 (Sep 19, 2018)

Same thing but his stance is a little different here.  In this video they suggest striking and wrestling isn’t enough and you absolutely need BJJ.


----------



## Buka (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I have yet to see a karate dojo where a group performing kata was not part of belt testing.



For information purposes only - I've been teaching American Karate for over forty years. A group performing Kata has never been part of any test. In fact, individuals doing Kata has never been part of any test, or any class, Katas are not part of our training.

Just sayin'.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> In essence, I simply don't believe that the only defence against grappling is grappling.
> 
> A grappler can defend against a striker, sure - but that's a failing on behalf of the striker.
> 
> ...



You can believe whatever you want, but the reality is that grapplers are trained to counter strikers because it is assumed that the majority of people you're going to end up fighting will be strikers. In striking arts, counters to grappling are rarely dealt with because again, the assumption is that you're going to be dealing with more strikers than grapplers in a fight. Thing is that grapplers also have to deal with other grapplers by default, so they really get the best of both worlds almost by accident.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

Buka said:


> For information purposes only - I've been teaching American Karate for over forty years. A group performing Kata has never been part of any test. In fact, individuals doing Kata has never been part of any test, or any class, Katas are not part of our training.
> 
> Just sayin'.



Interesting. I've had the exact opposite experience. Maybe because my background is Japanese karate?


----------



## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> In the TKD I studied there was no grappling.  I presume that was true of all other TKD at the time, but I don't really know since I didn't study them or visit their schools.
> 
> The reason I asked the way I did is that in the Hapkido I studied, we specifically trained in techniques to defend against various grabs, strikes, kicks, throws, and other attacks.



The grappling I'm referring to is the low level minor stuff in the encyclopedia, there's stuff in the 1965 edition too...

Pretty basic takedowns, throws, grabs and associated defences.


----------



## Buka (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Interesting. I've had the exact opposite experience. Maybe because my background is Japanese karate?



Probably. We just don't have any Kata. There are some exceptions, though. We used to compete a lot. Some of the kids wanted to compete in Kata as well as fighting. So we'd make up a Kata for the kid to do in competition. But it would belong to that kid only. He could practice it in the dojo AFTER class.

If I had to do it over, though, I think I'd make sanchin kata part of our system. I always like the dynamic tension component of it.

I realize that all this might sound sacrilegious to Karate purists, but I don't think it would be if you knew us. A lot of my friends and acquaintances are Traditional Martial Artists, they never cared. They still don't.


----------



## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Did you wear any kind of sparring protection? We did not. In step sparring, if you were the defender, it was your responsibility to avoid being hit, but that was generally by a block, or newbies moving to the side until they gained skill and confidence in their blocks. I hated getting blocked until my forearm got desensitized to take it.
> 
> But full contact in sparring was not allowed. A sufficiently skilled person who could just barely touch could do so, whether punch or kick, but that was rare.



Step sparring is pretty much as you describe. No kit for that, block/avoid or get hit (unless the attacker is being nice and pulls it). Oh, but there are at least 3 people who put shin pads on their arms when told to step spar against me 

Free sparring has kit - boots (with integrated or separate shin pads), cup, gloves, hat and gumshield.

It's not full contact, but there's the odd bloody nose or lip, the occasional black eye, a fair few bruises and a couple of months back I got a cracked rib. Still, that's medium contact for you 

We occasionally do kit free non contact, but it's unusual if a few of us don't agree to light/medium contact...


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Same thing but his stance is a little different here.  In this video they suggest striking and wrestling isn’t enough and you absolutely need BJJ.



The BJJ school you attend covers all of that, so you're fine.


----------



## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

Buka said:


> Probably. We just don't have any Kata. There are some exceptions, though. We used to compete a lot. Some of the kids wanted to compete in Kata as well as fighting. So we'd make up a Kata for the kid to do in competition. But it would belong to that kid only. He could practice it in the dojo AFTER class.
> 
> If I had to do it over, though, I think I'd make sanchin kata part of our system. I always like the dynamic tension component of it.
> 
> I realize that all this might sound sacrilegious to Karate purists, but I don't think it would be if you knew us. A lot of my friends and acquaintances are Traditional Martial Artists, they never cared. They still don't.



I like kata (even though we use a different name ), I enjoy doing them and I think there are benefits for me.

If someone else doesn't like them, or doesn't get any benefit, that's their (or their system's) choice.

The only thing I disagree with is people who say they're a pointless exercise, or those who try to say kata-free systems are lacking...


----------



## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> No, I'm saying I can.
> 
> What I'm not saying is that I can do it 100% of the time against absolutely anyone.
> 
> Just like being able to get a choke on, it's situational as to reliability.



@Hanzou - what about this are you disagreeing with?

Are you saying getting a choke is a 100% technique? That it being viable doesn't depend on the situation?

Or are you saying that I'm wrong to say I can't guarantee a perfect strike irrespective of my opponent?


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> @Hanzou - what about this are you disagreeing with?
> 
> Are you saying getting a choke is a 100% technique? That it being viable doesn't depend on the situation?
> 
> Or are you saying that I'm wrong to say I can't guarantee a perfect strike irrespective of my opponent?



I'm saying that once a choke is applied, bearing some unforeseen circumstances, there's a very high chance the person you're choking is going to sleep. Once applied, it's very reliable.


----------



## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I'm saying that once a choke is applied, bearing some unforeseen circumstances, there's a very high chance the person you're choking is going to sleep. Once applied, it's very reliable.



But that wasn't what I said at all, so you disagreed for the sake of it.

I said "getting a choke", which means going from not touching them to having your limb around their neck.

Saying that you are almost certain to be able to apply a choke to someone who doesn't want to play the grappling game is pure fantasy.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> But that wasn't what I said at all, so you disagreed for the sake of it.
> 
> I said "getting a choke", which means going from not touching them to having your limb around their neck.
> 
> Saying that you are almost certain to be able to apply a choke to someone who doesn't want to play the grappling game is pure fantasy.



I'm sure plenty of people didn't want to play the "grappling game". That didnt stop them from getting choked.


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 19, 2018)

Is this still going? Come on guys don't even bother with Hanzou he's obviously just a Bjj fanboy who thinks if it doesn't happen in a cage or a ring then it doesn't work. Let's not waste anymore time on this


----------



## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Is this still going? Come on guys don't even bother with Hanzou he's obviously just a Bjj fanboy who thinks if it doesn't happen in a cage or a ring then it doesn't work. Let's not waste anymore time on this



I'm still having fun though.

I can just imagine him sitting at his keyboard, getting all huffy and thinking "why don't these people see I'm like a superhero with my extreme grappling prowess???"


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> I'm still having fun though.
> 
> I can just imagine him sitting at his keyboard, getting all huffy and thinking "why don't these people see I'm like a superhero with my extreme grappling prowess???"



Where did I ever imply that I'm some grappling god?

Unlike you I don't believe I can perform instant KOs on demand.


----------



## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

Just for clarity - I have nothing but respect for grapplers and their arts who don't constantly try to berate anything they don't/can't do.


----------



## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Where did I ever imply that I'm some grappling god?
> 
> Unlike you I don't believe I can perform instant KOs on demand.



I never said that. Quote it.

But you seem to think you can perform 5-6 second KOs on demand.


----------



## Buka (Sep 19, 2018)

I'm kind of enjoying all the back and forth. And I hope it stays civil.

As for Hanzou geting huffy, heck, he hasn't even had his hair ruffled.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> I never said that. Quote it.





pdg said:


> I can do a kick to an opponent's leg hard enough to bend their knee backwards in well under a second, and I don't have to lay on the floor (in all that glass) to do it.
> 
> Go on, say I'm wrong.





pdg said:


> Oh, also...
> 
> You have "my friend" in a standing guillotine, that means both your hands are tied up and your head is completely exposed.
> 
> ...



We good?



> But you seem to think you can perform 5-6 second KOs on demand.



Yeah, they're called chokes.


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## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> We good?



Not really, I was highlighting how you had provided a perfect opening which increases my chances of success, and that I have the capability - I didn't once say it was an on demand deal.



Hanzou said:


> Yeah, they're called chokes.



Which entirely rely on you being able to apply said choke.

Which is far from a certainty.


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## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> Not really, I was highlighting how you had provided a perfect opening which increases my chances of success, and that I have the capability - I didn't once say it was an on demand deal.



You implied that it was. I'm happy to see you come back down to reality.



> Which entirely rely on you being able to apply said choke.
> 
> Which is far from a certainty.



Yet is heavily trained against multiple training partners of varying sizes and strength at full speed and power to increase the likelihood of being able to apply said choke.


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## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Yet is heavily trained against multiple training partners of varying sizes and strength at full speed and power to increase the likelihood of being able to apply said choke.



Yes, trained within the grappling or MMA ruleset.

To borrow your attitude to this, it could be said that no-touch knockout techniques are heavily trained against multiple partners of all sizes and that they always work in the demonstrations.


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## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> Yes, trained within the grappling or MMA ruleset.



And within the context of self defense.



> To borrow your attitude to this, it could be said that no-touch knockout techniques are heavily trained against multiple partners of all sizes and that they always work in the demonstrations.



Except there's never been a case of someone being able to apply no-touch knockout techniques outside of their personal dojo with unwilling partners. Incalculable people have been choked out in various arenas, on the streets, in houses, etc. and people trained in such techniques have been able to do it better than anyone else.

Your comparison is laughable.


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## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> And within the context of self defense.



Well, that'll be within the context of your instructor's interpretation of what they consider self defence.



Hanzou said:


> Except there's never been a case of someone being able to apply no-touch knockout techniques outside of their personal dojo with unwilling partners.



And how many truly unwilling partners have you choked out outside of your training arena?



Hanzou said:


> Incalculable people have been choked out in various arenas, on the streets, in houses, etc. and people trained in such techniques have been able to do it better than anyone else.



And so I presume that means you think nobody has ever been knocked out by a punch or kick, and that training in such techniques makes no difference to the efficacy of said techniques, because they don't work anyway?


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## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> Well, that'll be within the context of your instructor's interpretation of what they consider self defence.



Believe it or not, my instructor isn't the only person who believes that chokes are effective for self defense.



> And how many truly unwilling partners have you choked out outside of your training arena?



4. Two in a self defense situation. Two in competition (sorry to say).




> And so I presume that means you think nobody has ever been knocked out by a punch or kick, and that training in such techniques makes no difference to the efficacy of said techniques, because they don't work anyway?



I have no idea how you reached that presumption, but the answer to that question is no.


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## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Believe it or not, my instructor isn't the only person who believes that chokes are effective for self defense.



I believe he's not the only one.

And shockingly, I think he's right if the situation supports it.

But if the situation doesn't support it (weapons possibly present, backup possibly present) then I think it's a very bad idea to fully occupy both your arms for such a long time.

There was a fad a short while back of kids knocking out random people with a single sucker punch - they'd simply walk up to someone and floor them with a single punch to the side/back of the head while their mates video it and stick it on YouTube for a laugh. These were untrained people doing the punching.

So you get someone in a standing guillotine, as was previously stated you've got a bad lever so a shove on their behind clears access and you have a totally open head - if an untrained kid can knock someone out with a single punch why would a trained striker fail to do the same to you?

A kick is usually harder than a punch - what makes you think a person sufficiently trained to kick accurately couldn't take you out?

Or if the person is alone, you manage to get them in a SG, but they have a gravity knife tucked in their belt and two free arms. If it takes 5-6 seconds for them to pass out, that's at least 3 seconds of easily available time to grab it, flick out the blade and gutstab you 10 times.


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## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> I believe he's not the only one.
> 
> And shockingly, I think he's right if the situation supports it.
> 
> ...



You're assuming quite a few things here. You're assuming the untrained kid knows to shove their friend's behind to get to me. You're also assuming that I'm just standing there instead of moving.



> Or if the person is alone, you manage to get them in a SG, but they have a gravity knife tucked in their belt and two free arms. If it takes 5-6 seconds for them to pass out, that's at least 3 seconds of easily available time to grab it, flick out the blade and gutstab you 10 times.



They have one free arm. You're also assuming that the person getting choked has the presence of mind to start reaching around for a knife (assuming he can reach it) instead of panicking and trying to escape the choke. You're also assuming that I don't notice this as I have control over the majority of his upper body (or that I didn't notice he had a knife in his belt before all this began).


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## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You're assuming quite a few things here. You're assuming the untrained kid knows to shove their friend's behind to get to me. You're also assuming that I'm just standing there instead of moving.



No, I'm assuming that a trained striker knows to shove his friend aside to make clearance, and that they're experienced with moving targets (i.e. from sparring).

The untrained kid was the example that shows a single strike knockout isn't actually that difficult in reality.

I suggest you read it again.

I've pretty much said it before, but I'll say it again - a well trained striker is going to be having a challenge on his hands against a well trained grappler (or another well trained striker) and vice versa.

But, a well trained striker is going to have a far easier time against a well trained grappler if said grappler is hampered by already being engaged.


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## pdg (Sep 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> They have one free arm



Who has one free arm?

The choker has one arm around the chokee's neck, and the other arm to lock it in.

So, both arms engaged.

The chokee has both arms free.

And yes, it relies on retaining presence of mind to do anything about it, but that's hardly impossible.


That doesn't get away from the fact that you still have to get it engaged and locked in the first place.


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## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> Who has one free arm?
> 
> The choker has one arm around the chokee's neck, and the other arm to lock it in.
> 
> ...



See the video again, the chokee has one free arm.






Some call it the arm-in Guillotine. For my gym it was interchangeable, and in self defense, you always went for arm-in.

Anyways, if I'm stuck in the guillotine and he is going for a knife and I can't let go, best bet is to fall back into closed guard while maintaining the guillotine. That will close the space to where he can't reach for knife (also has a chance to face plant my assailant into the concrete) and allow me to finish the choke.


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## _Simon_ (Sep 19, 2018)

Buka said:


> Probably. We just don't have any Kata. There are some exceptions, though. We used to compete a lot. Some of the kids wanted to compete in Kata as well as fighting. So we'd make up a Kata for the kid to do in competition. But it would belong to that kid only. He could practice it in the dojo AFTER class.
> 
> If I had to do it over, though, I think I'd make sanchin kata part of our system. I always like the dynamic tension component of it.
> 
> I realize that all this might sound sacrilegious to Karate purists, but I don't think it would be if you knew us. A lot of my friends and acquaintances are Traditional Martial Artists, they never cared. They still don't.


Ah wow didn't know that Buka! I reckon you'd love kata ... and ahhh doing kata at sunrise on those lovely beaches in Hawaii..... that's spinetingling stuff....


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## Buka (Sep 20, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Ah wow didn't know that Buka! I reckon you'd love kata ... and ahhh doing kata at sunrise on those lovely beaches in Hawaii..... that's spinetingling stuff....



Simon, I just did a Kata at my buddy's Tang Soo Do dojo a couple months ago. I have no idea which Kata, but I enjoyed the heck out of it.

As for doing it on the beach, probably. But I bet it would be even better atop the mountain.


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## _Simon_ (Sep 20, 2018)

Buka said:


> Simon, I just did a Kata at my buddy's Tang Soo Do dojo a couple months ago. I have no idea which Kata, but I enjoyed the heck out of it.
> 
> As for doing it on the beach, probably. But I bet it would be even better atop the mountain.



YES!

That's awesome, a mountain would be epic too! Yep, kata excites me greatly XD


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 21, 2018)

When I studied TKD, we did kata, usually by what our belt was.  I realized I was learning blocks, kicks and punches, and the kata were a chance to learn blocks, punches and kicks and keep practicing them, but didn't think too much beyond that at the time.  It wasn't until much later when I would think back that I realized there was more to learn from the kata.  Still, in the Hapkido I studied, I never missed kata.  The two arts are very different in many ways, and there approach to learning is different.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 12, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> there is a point that grappling can go too far down a rabbit hole.  i watched a EBI event the other day and the two champs spent 15 minutes trying to get a toe lock.  grappling wise it was high level but self defense wise it was ridiculous.



Whole heartedly agree...

The way the striking arts are conventionally practiced in this country, the BJJ practitioner's have a very strong suit.  They address specifically a void that has come about in many karate practices for all the reasons blogged about.

OTOH, this whole mantra of grappling as self defense carries with it an even bigger risk of harm than striking.  Once the aggressor is in close... so many of your vulnerable points, senses can come under direct, unfettered attack.

Grappling for self defense is a two-sided coin.  Grapplers like to say they take away the strikers capability in large measure, and certainly ones' mobility is compromised.  Yet grapplers are thus directly exposed to like disadvantages & dangers.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 12, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> What do you think of this?



If there is one universal truth in martial arts, it's that those 'rock-paper-scissors' masters are drawn like magnets (Or is it lemmings?) to You tube.

EDIT:  Friggin' guy talks like a car salesmen.  _Chuck Liddell bought a car from me... you should too.  No brainier._


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## Hanzou (Oct 13, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> Whole heartedly agree...
> 
> The way the striking arts are conventionally practiced in this country, the BJJ practitioner's have a very strong suit.  They address specifically a void that has come about in many karate practices for all the reasons blogged about.
> 
> ...



Again, the flaw in Headhunter's post is that he's comparing two elite grapplers in a grappling match to a possible elite grappler against a person who possibly has little to no grappling experience. In that situation the elite grappler has a huge advantage, and it will take far less than 15 minutes to subdue or cripple the person they're dealing with.

The advantage that grappling has always had over striking is that you can go full force with grappling where in striking you have to always compromise full power to keep your training partners healthy. So while grapplers can go full blast and even take it to the point of near break or choke-out to the point of mastery, strikers can never fully practice breaking bones or dealing significant damage with strikes.

More to the OP, if you look at the old Gracie in Action stuff and the first UFCs, you'll see plenty of striking in Bjj. Typically strikes are deployed after they've achieved the dominant position. The good old "Ground and Pound" being a prime example.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 13, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Again, the flaw in Headhunter's post is that he's comparing two elite grapplers in a grappling match to a possible elite grappler against a person who possibly has little to no grappling experience. In that situation the elite grappler has a huge advantage, and it will take far less than 15 minutes to subdue or cripple the person they're dealing with.



I like to watch MMA.  And this is so often the situation as you point out.  MMA claims to be mixed martial arts.  Yet, the striking training wouldn't pass muster @ the local boxing outfit down the road from me.  The owner knows boxing science & has trained both amateur and pro competitors, over his lifespan of course.

I mentioned training MMA to him, and he has zero interest in it.



> The advantage that grappling has always had over striking is that you can go full force with grappling where in striking you have to always compromise full power to keep your training partners healthy. So while grapplers can go full blast and even take it to the point of near break or choke-out to the point of mastery, strikers can never fully practice breaking bones or dealing significant damage with strikes.



You see some of these incredible knock outs in MMA.  And I fear if some of these competitors are going to get up.  Hospitalizations are routine.  Post-fight medical suspensions, there's often a laundry list of fighters on it.  Striking arts in MMA definitely a double-edged sword.



> More to the OP, if you look at the old Gracie in Action stuff and the first UFCs, you'll see plenty of striking in Bjj. Typically strikes are deployed after they've achieved the dominant position. The good old "Ground and Pound" being a prime example.



Certainly a preferred route by the new UFC LW Champion himself.  And he's continued his string of being undefeated.  A wrestler base art!

I love to review the Gracie exposition videos.  Often they prep the entry with the jab.  This was a common tactic of Ronda Rousey.  Gracie propaganda aside... IMO the design of BJJ was very well thought out for mixed martial arts.

Edit:  Another benefit of the Gracies:  Because of their artistic contribution to MMA, I often follow their fights.  And their marketing bluster, too.  They can have the same troubles competing as anybody.  But when they're on... they're equally successful.


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## TMA17 (Oct 13, 2018)

I've caved and accepted the fact that most of the time, grappling is better.  However, you still need fundamental striking ability.  There were some instances in BJJ where I felt striking could have negated some of what my partner was trying to do.  I've always disliked grappling but highly respected it.  Boxing was my favorite combat sport and I was a huge fan of Mike Tyson and Bruce Lee growing up.  When the Gracies came around and my friends brought over the first few UFC fights on VHS to my house while in high school, I was shocked.  It was a glaring fact that grappling can easily neutralize striking.

I'm loving Judo so far.  In a street confrontation, Judo and Wrestling/BJJ followed by some boxing are a lethal combination to know for self defense.  If you can dictate where the fight goes and strike, you have a good majority of what you need covered IMO.


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## drop bear (Oct 13, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> Whole heartedly agree...
> 
> The way the striking arts are conventionally practiced in this country, the BJJ practitioner's have a very strong suit.  They address specifically a void that has come about in many karate practices for all the reasons blogged about.
> 
> ...



Less risk as the range for the most effective strikes happen at arms reach. As you get closer strikes just don't hit as hard.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 14, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Less risk as the range for the most effective strikes happen at arms reach. As you get closer strikes just don't hit as hard.



Would you mind explaining this position?


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## drop bear (Oct 14, 2018)

ShotoNoob said:


> Would you mind explaining this position?



The best striking range is about at arms reach  because my strikes have a little room to wind up.

As someone gets closer strikes become less powerful.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 14, 2018)

drop bear said:


> The best striking range is about at arms reach  because my strikes have a little room to wind up.
> 
> As someone gets closer strikes become less powerful.



Okay.  For one, I was thinking elbows close in.  Where elbows are not used, such as formal kumite competition see video.

*2018 The 61st JKA All Japan Karate Championship Tournament Series!!*
851 views







budojapan
Published on Jul 9, 2018

We are @ 22 seconds in.  I can't put my finger on the name of the female Japanese defender in the exchange; what she demonstrates is the body movement / reset then counter strike.  Effective karate striking is not a static process.  Boxer's too have a whole series of adjusting technicals.

Later in the video with the big guys, we will see shorter 'cocked' strikes.  With boxers, this does often rob power into the strike because the distance is very short in a tie up, clinch.  And the body mechanics may be thrown off by being taken out of stance.  The traditional karate chambered punching, however, comes to rely on internal strength and not necessarily depend upon the long ROM chambered strikes we see typically represented in kata, kihon, and so forth.


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