# What is this Stance Called?



## Gyakuto (Jul 7, 2022)

Rika Usami does mention it’s name but I can’t catch it. Does anyone know?


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## Yokozuna514 (Jul 7, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Rika Usami does mention it’s name but I can’t catch it. Does anyone know?
> 
> 
> View attachment 28631


In Kyokushin we call this stance kake dachi.


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## Gyakuto (Jul 7, 2022)

Kake as in hook? Thank you so much


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## isshinryuronin (Jul 7, 2022)

Kosa dachi.  

It is one of those "specialized" stances that are done to aid in the execution of a particular technique or to handle a particular situation.  As a result, one doesn't remain in this stance for more than one or two seconds.  Its main, but not only, use is to pivot the body to create torque for some kind of lock or pull.


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## Gyakuto (Jul 7, 2022)

‘Cross-legged stance’! Brilliant. Thank you so much 🙏🏽


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 7, 2022)

We call it a cross stance or crossover stance. We teach is as both a step in front and a step behind. It's mostly used for closing or increasing distance. It is also used for twisting the body, as when combined with a grab.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 7, 2022)

It's called "stealing step" in CMA. It's a step (footwork). It's not a stance.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 7, 2022)

In SKK we called it a T-stance or a cross-step. Not sure if those were official names or not though, I never focused too much on those things. Have not seen it in muay Thai, kali or grappling arts. And people were always bewildered when I'd use it in fencing, so don't think it has a name there either.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 7, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> In SKK we called it a T-stance or a cross-step. Not sure if those were official names or not though, I never focused too much on those things. Have not seen it in muay Thai, kali or grappling arts. And people were always bewildered when I'd use it in fencing, so don't think it has a name there either.


Makes sense for fencing. In fencing, the right of way rules and such allow you to make deep lunges that you really cannot recover from all that easily. Without that option, this would be one way of closing (or increasing) the distance. I've seen it (and done it) in SCA matches.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 7, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Makes sense for fencing. In fencing, the right of way rules and such allow you to make deep lunges that you really cannot recover from all that easily. Without that option, this would be one way of closing (or increasing) the distance. I've seen it (and done it) in SCA matches.


I did it a lot in fencing. Worked very well, especially against those that hadn't seen it before, as a different way to advance quickly down the strip, and be able to recover backwards.


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## Holmejr (Jul 8, 2022)

It the stance that allows your opponent to take you off you feet…it’s in many traditional MA’s


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## isshinryuronin (Jul 8, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'd use it in fencing, so don't think it has a name there either.


It's called a "fleche" and is a deep lunge propelling you forward (almost out of control as Dirty Dog mentioned).  The rear leg then has to cross over the front to begin to regain control of your forward momentum.  Another step after that is usually needed to fully recover.  

Like other moves in sport combat, it is very risky in real combat since you are exposed afterwards, but sport fencing has a number of rules that prevents the opponent from capitalizing on this. It_ is_ fun to execute since most other fencing techniques are quire restrained.


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## Gyakuto (Jul 8, 2022)

Holmejr said:


> It the stance that allows your opponent to take you off you feet…it’s in many traditional MA’s


Yes a bit like standing on one leg when throwing a head kick….


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## Gyakuto (Jul 8, 2022)

I ask because there is a _similar_ posture in Japanese swordsmanship, again it is transitory between withdrawing and stepping forward to thrust with the sword, rather like a spear. But, I’ve never heard a name for it. Thus I’ll use ‘kosadachi’ when explaining it.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 8, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> It's called a "fleche" and is a deep lunge propelling you forward (almost out of control as Dirty Dog mentioned).  The rear leg then has to cross over the front to begin to regain control of your forward momentum.  Another step after that is usually needed to fully recover.
> 
> Like other moves in sport combat, it is very risky in real combat since you are exposed afterwards, but sport fencing has a number of rules that prevents the opponent from capitalizing on this. It_ is_ fun to execute since most other fencing techniques are quire restrained.


Nope. I'm aware of what a fleche is. That's very different than this stance, unless I'm entirely misunderstanding what stance is being referred to here-the only similarity is that the legs are being crossed.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 8, 2022)

Holmejr said:


> It the stance that allows your opponent to take you off you feet…it’s in many traditional MA’s


ha ha ha.  I knew a comment like this was on the horizon.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 8, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Nope. I'm aware of what a fleche is. That's very different than this stance, unless I'm entirely misunderstanding what stance is being referred to here-the only similarity is that the legs are being crossed.


To clarify further. The stance in the screenshot looks like one designed to transition while keeping your balance and staying rooted. When you fleche, while it's a transitionary stance, and the legs cross. And, while this part may not be universal, in my art the leg that's doing the crossing always ends up crossing from behind, rather than in front. 
When you fleche, you cross the leg in front, and are purposefully losing your balance, 'falling' into the fleche. The upper body posture as a result is entirely different, and while with a t-stance you can easily reverse course once you uncross, that is very difficult to do with a proper, committed fleche.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 8, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Rika Usami does mention it’s name but I can’t catch it. Does anyone know?
> 
> 
> View attachment 28631


This is a Cross Stance in Jow Ga Kung Fu.  I use it as a transitional stance.  It can be used for a lot of things.  The benefit of this step is that it usually places the lead foot into a "ready position" of the next technique to follow.  Or it can be used to "hide" the foot work of the next technique that you want to use.

As Kung Fu Wang mention "Stealing step."  in that context it can be use to close the gap.  I  use it to get me closer to my opponent without my opponent realizing that I'm advancing.  The picture actually shows 2 techniques.
1. Hand Technique
2. Foot Technique / Stance technique

I also uses this stance as part of my recovery foot work when I've been pushed off balance.  It absorbs the energy from a  push much better and it makes it easier and faster to regain balance.  In the picture below my opponent pushed me off balance while I was standing on one leg from a failed attempt to trip him.



In my opinion the biggest misconception about this stance is that it = Crossing legs.  I don't cross my legs as shown in the picture above.  That back foot should always have an opening to move forward or move freely without crashing into the front leg.  Crossing legs to me means that my rear leg can not move forward without hitting the front leg.  I'm sure there are exceptions the areas of grappling.  In terms of footwork, I believe that the legs should know how to move in other ways beyond forwards and backwards.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 8, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I did it a lot in fencing. Worked very well, especially against those that hadn't seen it before, as a different way to advance quickly down the strip, and be able to recover backwards.


Easiest way I ever found to hit an Olympic fencer in a HEMA-style event is to circle them. Sort of like big time Olympic TKD players can be punched in the head.


Holmejr said:


> It the stance that allows your opponent to take you off you feet…it’s in many traditional MA’s


Only if you're stupid enough to stand there.


isshinryuronin said:


> It's called a "fleche" and is a deep lunge propelling you forward (almost out of control as Dirty Dog mentioned).  The rear leg then has to cross over the front to begin to regain control of your forward momentum.  Another step after that is usually needed to fully recover.


You don't twist the body like the example shown when you're doing a fleche. The fleche is done from more of a front stance or walking stance.


Gyakuto said:


> Yes a bit like standing on one leg when throwing a head kick….


You stand on one leg when you throw any non-jumping or -flying kick. And yet, we see high kicks used all the time in fighting sports, without the kicker being instantly knocked out.


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## isshinryuronin (Jul 8, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Nope. I'm aware of what a fleche is. That's very different than this stance, unless I'm entirely misunderstanding what stance is being referred to here-the only similarity is that the legs are being crossed.


_Yes, they are completely different_ things in purpose and execution.  You and others brought up leg crossing in relation to fencing and the "fleche" seemed to be the topic.  I meant no similarity other than this.  Maybe I executed a fleche, "falling" into a wrong assumption as to your reference.  Kosa dachi is, as you said, a rooted stance while the fleche is more of a radical movement.  I think we're on the same page, just started out of synch to start.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 8, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> _Yes, they are completely different_ things in purpose and execution.  You and others brought up leg crossing in relation to fencing and the "fleche" seemed to be the topic.  I meant no similarity other than this.  Maybe I executed a fleche, "falling" into a wrong assumption as to your reference.  Kosa dachi is, as you said, a rooted stance while the fleche is more of a radical movement.  I think we're on the same page, just started out of synch to start.


Enjoyed the falling pun. But yes, two totally different things, but the whole rooting portion and the twisting is what separates it, and why it threw people off when I did it during fencing. Seeing a fleche would be totally normal.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 8, 2022)

*Image Above *stepping backwards into a cross stance to attack my brother.  In the video.  I untwist into a punch but I didn't really go for it because there would be no way for me to pull the power if I needed to.  In order to pull this technique off and be successful I would have to go full speed and with speed will come some power.





*Image Above *stepping backwards into a cross stance to attack my brother.  Here the cross stance camouflages my advance. Instead. of untwisting into a punch, I'm going to stay in this position and bring my right leg around in a circular motion to sweep his front leg.














*Image Above *stepping *forward *into a cross stance to attack my brother. I attack my brother who defends my attack at the time.  While he's occupied I "Steal a step" and take advantage of the opening he has given me. With a kick to his ribs.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 8, 2022)

I forgot to mention that I think of the cross stance as falling into 2 characteristics
1. Cross stance for striking
2. Cross stance for grappling

I think of most stances like. The purpose and focus of the stance changes greatly depending on which category it fits under. The rule for stances in the striking world may be invalid in the grappling world.


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## Doc (Jul 12, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Rika Usami does mention it’s name but I can’t catch it. Does anyone know?
> 
> 
> View attachment 28631


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## Doc (Jul 12, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Rika Usami does mention it’s name but I can’t catch it. Does anyone know?


The stance is called "Kosa dachi" 


Gyakuto said:


> View attachment 28631


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 12, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Rika Usami does mention it’s name but I can’t catch it. Does anyone know?
> 
> 
> View attachment 28631


It is known by a variety of names as others have mentioned.  In Isshinryu, it can be called Kosa Dachi or Cross Stance.  It is seen in Chinto kata, which was taken from Shorinryu.  I have also heard it called a Reverse T Stance, as if you look at it, it's kind of the opposite of a T Stance (not quite a Cat Stance).

It is a very stable stance for resisting a pull from the front as the correct form of this stance (in Isshinryu) is to lock the rear knee into the back of the leading knee as see in the photo you included and the body is slightly twisted (note the knot in her obi is over her right knee, not straight ahead).  The only difference I can see between the photo you showed and the way we use this stance in Isshinryu is that the fist that is in a middle block would instead be a down block.  The other hand is as we would do it in Chinto kata; an upward-facing palm fist held at about mid-level.

We frequently test this stance by having the karateka get into the stance, grabbing their leading arm and attempting to pull them forward.  If they can lock into their stance, they can resist a stronger pull than if they were just standing in a traditional stance such as Heiko Dachi.

It feels very alien at first, but in time it becomes a very natural stance to hit and get out of by uncoiling the body.  I find it comfortable and can stand in this stance for quite some time.


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## Olde Phart (Jul 12, 2022)

In Kyuki-do, this cross-step is used in one of our FORMS as a transitional block between whatever-it-was we just did and whatever-it-is we're gonna do.  It's actual employment is accomplished by slightly leaning forward over the front leg with both forearms blocking a roundhouse or other swinging kick.  The positioning is only momentary as the back foot is then moved toward the opponent and then do your own kick/punch/block.  Unless you are terribly slow, the opponent can't sweep you since one of their legs is "in the air" already and occupied with your block.  By stepping forward this way, it actually allows you to move slightly sideways with the rear foot and give a better angle for your next move.  As I stated at the first, it is part of a FORM.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 12, 2022)

Olde Phart said:


> In Kyuki-do, this cross-step is used in one of our FORMS as a transitional block between whatever-it-was we just did and whatever-it-is we're gonna do.  It's actual employment is accomplished by slightly leaning forward over the front leg with both forearms blocking a roundhouse or other swinging kick.  The positioning is only momentary as the back foot is then moved toward the opponent and then do your own kick/punch/block.  Unless you are terribly slow, the opponent can't sweep you since one of their legs is "in the air" already and occupied with your block.  By stepping forward this way, it actually allows you to move slightly sideways with the rear foot and give a better angle for your next move.  As I stated at the first, it is part of a FORM.


It can also disguise a kick with the rear foot in kumite.  I've seen people fight out of the so-called Chinto stance.  It works when done right.  I'll say I've done it myself in tournament and got a point with it.


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## Buka (Jul 12, 2022)

We used to call it the "don't get caught with your feet crossed stance."

But we still did it ourselves at times.


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## Gyakuto (Jul 14, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> It is known by a variety of names as others have mentioned.  In Isshinryu, it can be called Kosa Dachi or Cross Stance.  It is seen in Chinto kata, which was taken from Shorinryu.  I have also heard it called a Reverse T Stance, as if you look at it, it's kind of the opposite of a T Stance (not quite a Cat Stance).
> 
> It is a very stable stance for resisting a pull from the front as the correct form of this stance (in Isshinryu) is to lock the rear knee into the back of the leading knee as see in the photo you included and the body is slightly twisted (note the knot in her obi is over her right knee, not straight ahead).  The only difference I can see between the photo you showed and the way we use this stance in Isshinryu is that the fist that is in a middle block would instead be a down block.  The other hand is as we would do it in Chinto kata; an upward-facing palm fist held at about mid-level.
> 
> ...


I recall it in Wado Ryu’s Wanshu kata too! Again a transitory ‘stance’.


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## _Simon_ (Jul 15, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> I recall it in Wado Ryu’s Wanshu kata too! Again a transitory ‘stance’.


Oh cool have never seen Wado's version of Enpi! Have added mae geris and a much more dynamic move up the middle section with the rising/downward pressing blocks... fascinating!


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## Gyakuto (Aug 4, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> Oh cool have never seen Wado's version of Enpi! Have added mae geris and a much more dynamic move up the middle section with the rising/downward pressing blocks... fascinating!


It’s curious how Wado Ryu tends to retain the old Okinawa kata names and indeed many of the stances are very similar to the Okinawa versions when Shotokan version are very different (Wado Ryu founder Hironori Otsuka, was one of the top students of Funakoshi Gichin). I realise Funakoshi was trying to remove Karate from it’s Okinawa/Chinese origins and make it appear more ‘Japanese’, but Otsuka chose not to do this, perhaps assuming the addition of elements of Japanese Shindo Yoshinori Ryu Jujutsu would ’Japanise’ his new style sufficiently.


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 5, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> It’s curious how Wado Ryu tends to retain the old Okinawa kata names and indeed many of the stances are very similar to the Okinawa versions when Shotokan version are very different (Wado Ryu founder Hironori Otsuka, was one of the top students of Funakoshi Gichin). I realise Funakoshi was trying to remove Karate from it’s Okinawa/Chinese origins and make it appear more ‘Japanese’, but Otsuka chose not to do this, perhaps assuming the addition of elements of Japanese Shindo Yoshinori Ryu Jujutsu would ’Japanise’ his new style sufficiently.


Otsuka trained with Funakoshi in the 1920's and broke with him in the early 1930's.  This, I think, was before most of the kata names were changed to the Japanese versions - about the same time Otsuka was making his own way.  It's possible that he retained the older names of the kata to further distance himself from Funakoshi and Shotokan.  He also studied with others, such as Mabuni (who didn't at that time?) whose style also largely retained the Okinawan kata names


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## Star Dragon (Aug 6, 2022)

In Kenpo, a front crossover or a back crossover can be used for crossing the gap, combined with a hand technique to draw the opponent's guard up, and followed by a kick. It's a very surprising kind of maneuver.


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## punisher73 (Aug 6, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> It’s curious how Wado Ryu tends to retain the old Okinawa kata names and indeed many of the stances are very similar to the Okinawa versions when Shotokan version are very different (Wado Ryu founder Hironori Otsuka, was one of the top students of Funakoshi Gichin). I realise Funakoshi was trying to remove Karate from it’s Okinawa/Chinese origins and make it appear more ‘Japanese’, but Otsuka chose not to do this, perhaps assuming the addition of elements of Japanese Shindo Yoshinori Ryu Jujutsu would ’Japanise’ his new style sufficiently.



Otsuka also studied Japanese JJ styles and incorporated them.  There is a story that I have seen passed on in Wado-Ryu circles, not sure if it is more apocryphal in nature or true.  But, the story goes that during a class/demonstration, Choki Motobu had a Judoka get a grip on Funakoshi and was told to get out of it with your "basic kata" (insulting Funakoshi's level of expertise).  Funakoshi was unable to break the grip and was thrown.  Otsuka then took up the challenge and could do it with his knowledge of Judo/JJ.

Otsuka started to look to more combat function and emphasize kumite, which Funakoshi was not a fan of.  This is what strained their relationship and Otsuka kept exploring other arts to incorporate into his approach based on what he felt was better combat applicability.


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 6, 2022)

Star Dragon said:


> In Kenpo, a front crossover or a back crossover can be used for crossing the gap, combined with a hand technique to draw the opponent's guard up, and followed by a kick. It's a very surprising kind of maneuver.


You're a little off-track here.

What you're describing is simply _stepping_ in the bow stance to change distance as its main function.  The topic is a specific _stance_ (no distance change required) whose very nature provides function such as bracing against a pull and able to provide torque for various applications as well as slipping a strike when pivoted into.  It may resemble the halfway point in a crossover step but is a slightly different animal, mostly because it is rooted and locked.

It's not "a very surprising kind of maneuver" as it's a basic and very common tactic found in many styles' sparring. For those with experience, it's a rather slow setup and telegraphs its intention.  More common and faster would be a shuffle step where the back foot comes up to the front, but not so far as crossing over.  This is often done as a skipping motion to further speed it up and was used to great effect by Joe Lewis to land his side thrust kick.

Don't take this reply in a defensive manner as your post suggests limited experience and there is some risk in that .   Part of the fun in MA is discovering its subtleties and variety.


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## Star Dragon (Aug 6, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> You're a little off-track here.
> 
> What you're describing is simply _stepping_ in the bow stance to change distance as its main function.



Not so. What I was describing was a setup for a pretty sneaky attack - not a simple step.



isshinryuronin said:


> The topic is a specific _stance_ (no distance change required) whose very nature provides function such as bracing against a pull and able to provide torque for various applications as well as slipping a strike when pivoted into.  It may resemble the halfway point in a crossover step but is a slightly different animal, mostly because it is rooted and locked.



_Every_ stance is transitional (even a basic fighting stance, if you think about it). I am well aware of the types of application you are describing, of course. Specifically in Kenpo, we are differentiating between a crossover stance and a twist stance to cover the various possibilities. 

I was simply outlining another application for what is called _kosa-dachi_ or _kake-dachi_ in the Japanese Karate styles I studied back in the day. Apart from _kata_, where it is commonly seen, it is not generally used in modern Karate much. However, kenpoists use it all the time - which might be of interest to some other posters here.



isshinryuronin said:


> It's not "a very surprising kind of maneuver" as it's a basic and very common tactic found in many styles' sparring.



There may be some other arts employing that kind of maneuver as well, but I don't think it's "a very common tactic" overall.



isshinryuronin said:


> For those with experience, it's a rather slow setup and telegraphs its intention.



Actually, it often takes practitioners of the many styles that don't include it in their own curriculum by surprise. That is, when combined with the kind of feint I mentioned (typically a backfist or a vertical punch).



isshinryuronin said:


> More common and faster would be a shuffle step where the back foot comes up to the front, but not so far as crossing over.



Correct, but that version covers less distance.



isshinryuronin said:


> This is often done as a skipping motion to further speed it up and was used to great effect by Joe Lewis to land his side thrust kick.
> 
> Don't take this reply in a defensive manner as your post suggests limited experience and there is some risk in that .



Oh thanks for the patronizing ad hominem! I doubt that you are in a position to judge my level of experience based on a single post. Even if I tell you that I am a second-generation Ed Parker student, what does this mean to you? I won't go down this road.



isshinryuronin said:


> Part of the fun in MA is discovering its subtleties and variety.



A prerequisite for this would be an open mind, though - the proverbial "empty cup".


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 6, 2022)

Star Dragon said:


> Correct, but that version covers less distance.


Agree that the skip step cover less distance than the stealing step, or the cover step.



isshinryuronin said:


> because it is rooted and locked.


In striking art, you may use this stance for extra reach.

In wrestling art, it can be a fast turn,





or a hop.


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 6, 2022)

Star Dragon said:


> Even if I tell you that I am a second-generation Ed Parker student, what does this mean to you?


It means you're still missing several of my points.  I've based my posts on the stance Gyakuto showed in the photo he posted when starting this thread.


Star Dragon said:


> Correct, but that version covers less distance.


True, but to use the X-over step gives_ too much time_ for the opponent to counter (feint or no feint) unless we are talking about lower-level belts.  An experienced fighter will work in closer before launching a _speedy_ skip/shuffle side kick.

Don't know how long you trained as a 2nd gen student.  I trained directly with Ed Parker and ran an EPKK school in Southern Cal in the 70's.


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## Star Dragon (Aug 9, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> It means you're still missing several of my points.  I've based my posts on the stance Gyakuto showed in the photo he posted when starting this thread.



Hey... So did I! 



isshinryuronin said:


> True, but to use the X-over step gives_ too much time_ for the opponent to counter (feint or no feint) unless we are talking about lower-level belts.



I usually make reference to the average streetfighter.



isshinryuronin said:


> An experienced fighter will work in closer before launching a _speedy_ skip/shuffle side kick.



This kind of maneuver isn't limited to the side kick at all. A variety of kicks can be performed not only from a shuffle, but also from a front or back crossover stance.



isshinryuronin said:


> Don't know how long you trained as a 2nd gen student.  I trained directly with Ed Parker and ran an EPKK school in Southern Cal in the 70's.



Good for you!

Alas, the frequent bickering about the qualification of a particular practitioner or their methods is exactly what is tearing the Kenpo community apart. Let's stay on topic, please...


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## Gyakuto (Aug 9, 2022)

Errrr…who’s Ed Parker?


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## Star Dragon (Aug 9, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Errrr…who’s Ed Parker?


Short answer: The founder of American Kenpo.


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## Gyakuto (Aug 9, 2022)

Is he highly rated as a practitioner? I now vaguely remember his grey-haired image on the cover of Blackbelt magazine!


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## Flying Crane (Aug 9, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Is he highly rated as a practitioner? I now vaguely remember his grey-haired image on the cover of Blackbelt magazine!


Depends on who you talk to.


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## Gyakuto (Aug 9, 2022)

…and I thought Ameri-Do-Te was a spoof 🤷🏽‍♂️


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## Flying Crane (Aug 9, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> …and I thought Ameri-Do-Te was a spoof 🤷🏽‍♂️


My understanding is, the American-do-te fellow is an actual kenpo teacher, and he is parodying martial arts in general and kenpo in particular.  There can be some rich material for lampooning there, but it depends on how it is done. 

There are people who think very highly of Mr. Parker, and others who do not.  Like anything, it depends on what you see in his methods and how well you perceive it as fitting your needs and interest.  There are lots of people who studied under him and then essentially established their own downstream lineage.  They are not all done the same way.  That has historically caused both confusion and conflict between lineages, but I would say most people have let those issues go in more recent years.

Mr. Parker changed what he did and how he did it over the years, so a lot of the difference In lineages reflect when someone trained under him.  Other people have simply decided to make their own alterations, including mixing elements of other methods, and created their own versions.

I believe there is kenpo in Ireland, if not other parts of the UK.


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## Gyakuto (Aug 9, 2022)

Thank you, Flying Crane, that’s very informative.🙏🏽


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## Flying Crane (Aug 9, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Thank you, Flying Crane, that’s very informative.🙏🏽


My pleasure.  My beginnings in the martial arts was in a downstream lineage under Al and Jim Tracy, who were early students of Mr. Parker, beginning in the 1950s. They eventually split from him and rejected the changes Parker was making at the time.  Since then, they have also done some changes of their own.  Jim Tracy died some time ago, Al died more recently, in the last several years.  I trained under a couple of teachers, one of whom was a very senior and direct student of Jim and Al.  I simply refer to it as Tracy lineage kenpo.  Ultimately I no longer train kenpo at all; I found that white crane simply meets my needs and interests better. 

At any rate, Mr. Parker grew up and trained in Hawaii, then attended university at Brigham Young University in Utah where he taught some people before moving to California where he began to teach and develop his business model in earnest.  It did flourish and his system has proliferated in various forms across the US as well as gaining footholds in some other nations.  Some people feel that he developed a commercial system as a business and income model that was easier to proliferate but perhaps fails to hold to the highest standards, which was different from the kenpo that he personally practiced at a much higher standard.  I am not in a position to comment on that.  So he is held in very high regard in some circles, while not so high in others.  

He passed away unexpectedly in 1990, I believe was in his 50s, not an old man.


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## Gyakuto (Aug 9, 2022)

It’s so odd for me to hear of lineages prefixed by Western names! I’m used to ‘Harusuke‘ or ‘Masamichi‘ ha, but I suppose the martial arts were established in the USA well before they were in the U.K.!


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## Flying Crane (Aug 9, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> It’s so odd for me to hear of lineages prefixed by Western names! I’m used to ‘Harusuke‘ or ‘Masamichi‘ ha, but I suppose the martial arts were established in the USA well before they were in the U.K.!


Well the kenpo world in particular went through that in part to simply have a meaningful and accurate description, and also to separate and distinguish one from another.  The later lineages that stayed connected to Parker until he passed came to be simply called American Kenpo in the general sense, while some referred to it as Ed Parker’s American Kenpo or EPAK.  Tracys called theirs Traditional Kenpo, and often used Karate at the end, but as I came to understand the history better and recognized that even those who stayed with Parker to the end often disagreed and did things differently, there really is no unification.  So I then just started calling it Tracy lineage, and I tend to refer to others by the name of the first generation student under Parker, for example Tatum lineage, etc.  but even within these lineages they may not show unification down the lineage.   When I started in 1984, my understanding was there was Parker style and Tracy style Kenpo, but I came to understand it was it so simple as that.

So that’s just my own short-hand, I don’t know that others refer to it in the same way. 

Add to the confusion the fact the term kenpo is a generalist term, and other systems also use it i their name.  In addition, there are other lineages that trace back to Hawaii and to Parker’s teacher, but not through Parker, and there are all kinds of kenpo/kempo, some of which are closely related or more distantly related, or not related at all but simply use the same term in their title.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 9, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I believe there is kenpo in Ireland, if not other parts of the UK.


My mistake.  I referred to Ireland as part of the UK.  It is not, and I know that.


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## Star Dragon (Aug 9, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> It’s so odd for me to hear of lineages prefixed by Western names! I’m used to ‘Harusuke‘ or ‘Masamichi‘ ha, but I suppose the martial arts were established in the USA well before they were in the U.K.!


You may find it interesting that American Kenpo traces back to Kosho-ryu Kempo, a style founded by Hawaiian Japanese James Mitose in the early 1940's. While it developed as an eclectic style (notably, incorporating elements from Danzan-ryu Jujitsu and Southern Shaolin Kung fu), it does have its root in the Okinawan Karate/Kempo of Mutsu Mizuho and Motobu Choki. You can still see this foundation even in Mr. Parker's much revised version - for instance, American Kenpo employs all the stances characteristic of Shorin-ryu Karate, however, you won't find typical Shorei-ryu stances like sanchin-dachi or shiko-dachi in it.

And unlike modern Japanese Karate, where many traditional stances are regarded as more of a historical footnote or restricted to kata training, American Kenpo actually _applies_ all of its stances - sometimes in idiosyncratic ways. A good example is the extension of the self-defence technique "Clutching Feathers"; watch the following video from the 6:30 mark on:


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 9, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Errrr…who’s Ed Parker?


Nobody to be overly concerned with. Yeah I said it.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 9, 2022)

Star Dragon said:


> Short answer: The founder of American Kenpo.


First off, the book titled the secrets of Chinese karate was mostly stolen content from one James Wing Woo. Sifu Woo had the original drawings and diagrams in his kwoon that were used in the book.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 9, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Is he highly rated as a practitioner? I now vaguely remember his grey-haired image on the cover of Blackbelt magazine!


Depends on who you ask.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 9, 2022)

Star Dragon said:


> You may find it interesting that American Kenpo traces back to Kosho-ryu Kempo, a style founded by Hawaiian Japanese James Mitose in the early 1940's. While it developed as an eclectic style (notably, incorporating elements from Danzan-ryu Jujitsu and Southern Shaolin Kung fu), it does have its root in the Okinawan Karate/Kempo of Mutsu Mizuho and Motobu Choki. You can still see this foundation even in Mr. Parker's much revised version - for instance, American Kenpo employs all the stances characteristic of Shorin-ryu Karate, however, you won't find typical Shorei-ryu stances like sanchin-dachi or shiko-dachi in it.
> 
> And unlike modern Japanese Karate, where many traditional stances are regarded as more of a historical footnote or restricted to kata training, American Kenpo actually _applies_ all of its stances - sometimes in idiosyncratic ways. A good example is the extension of the self-defence technique "Clutching Feathers"; watch the following video from the 6:30 mark on:


The only thing missing is master Ken.


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 9, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Some people feel that he developed a commercial system as a business and income model that was easier to proliferate but perhaps fails to hold to the highest standards, which was different from the kenpo that he personally practiced at a much higher standard.


I was exposed to a number of his direct black belt students (of various degrees) and they were all tough, excellent technicians.  But sadly, proliferation and commercialization often lead to lower standards and is seen in all styles.


Gyakuto said:


> Is he highly rated as a practitioner? I now vaguely remember his grey-haired image on the cover of Blackbelt magazine!


Ed Parker was a physical force to be reckoned with.  Some had negative opinions of his personality and business dealings, but this should not bleed over to the art he practiced.  Before Bruce Lee he was the major MA personality and influencer in the USA. 


Star Dragon said:


> it does have its root in the Okinawan Karate/


This is an underappreciated fact.  While the Chinese side of his art was usually highlighted, many similarities can be seen between EPK and advanced traditional Okinawan karate regarding doctrine and principles, and even (to a lesser extent) technique.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 10, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> I was exposed to a number of his direct black belt students (of various degrees) and they were all tough, excellent technicians.  But sadly, proliferation and commercialization often lead to lower standards and is seen in all styles.
> 
> Ed Parker was a physical force to be reckoned with.  Some had negative opinions of his personality and business dealings, but this should not bleed over to the art he practiced.  Before Bruce Lee he was the major MA personality and influencer in the USA.
> 
> This is an underappreciated fact.  While the Chinese side of his art was usually highlighted, many similarities can be seen between EPK and advanced traditional Okinawan karate regarding doctrine and principles, and even (to a lesser extent) technique.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 10, 2022)

Sifu Rich Montgomery, Sifu James Wing Woo, Sifu Leo Whang.


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