# I taught myself a form today...



## Makalakumu (Nov 22, 2008)

Yup.  I sat down with a book and a video and learned a form.  I've never done that before, but I didn't have many other options.  I like Tang Soo Do, but I've begun to have a very different take on the art and I haven't found any teachers out here who share my view of it.  Thus, if I'm going to learn any of the advanced forms, without making a switch to another art, I'm left with self learning.

What does every one think?  Would you ever teach yourself a form?  If so, under what circumstances?  If not, why not?


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## crushing (Nov 22, 2008)

I'm not ready to teach myself a form.  I don't always keep all my required forms straight right now.  Maybe later in my journey.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 22, 2008)

crushing said:


> I'm not ready to teach myself a form. I don't always keep all my required forms straight right now. Maybe later in my journey.


 
Do you practice TSD?  Not that it matters, your opinions is welcome regardless.  I was just wondering because I thought I knew all of the Tangsoodoin on this board.

In regards to the question, I think experience matters a lot.  I wouldn't teach myself a form if I was just starting out.  It helps that I've been practicing TSD for a long time.


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## crushing (Nov 22, 2008)

I need to pay better attention to the forum I'm in.  I practice TKD.  But, I think my organization's TKD is very TSDish.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 22, 2008)

crushing said:


> I need to pay better attention to the forum I'm in. I practice TKD. But, I think my organization's TKD is very TSDish.


 
No worries.  TSD and TKD are cousins.  I post in the TKD forum all of the time.


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## terrylamar (Nov 22, 2008)

maunakumu said:


> Yup. I sat down with a book and a video and learned a form. I've never done that before, but I didn't have many other options. I like Tang Soo Do, but I've begun to have a very different take on the art and I haven't found any teachers out here who share my view of it. Thus, if I'm going to learn any of the advanced forms, without making a switch to another art, I'm left with self learning.
> 
> What does every one think? Would you ever teach yourself a form? If so, under what circumstances? If not, why not?


 
Nothing wrong with it.  Get it validated once you learn it.  Just make sure it is the version your particular style uses.


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## MBuzzy (Nov 22, 2008)

I would say that at your level and with your understanding, it is no problem at all.  If you can find someone who does know it, it wouldn't hurt to have someone take a look....but you know very well how different all of the versions of TSD are out there....and how many different ways there are to do a single form.

I've learned forms from books and videos while I was in Korea and honestly, once I got back, no one knew the difference.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 23, 2008)

Personally I think it is obviously always best to learn it from your instructor.  That way you pick up the *fine details* and the *applications*.  However, in my experience with all the Tuls (forms) of ITF TKD if you have the movement then learning it this way is pretty easy.  Not the best way and certainly you could screw up and have to relearn it later but yes it can be done!






 (I should know I have done it too way back in the day, that is learned one form this way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


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## terryl965 (Nov 23, 2008)

Well you have learned the movements, now it is time to learn application. Does the video or book give all the possibilities.


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## Tez3 (Nov 23, 2008)

I've taught myself a couple now from a TSD book. Not perfect but the best I can do. The instructor we did TSD with moved to Spain a while ago, we aren't in an organisation and my instrucutor doesn't know the forms either. I don't need to know them for anything I just want to do them, it's a challenge.
The Bunkai of all my katas and forms I learn from Iain Abernethy's videos, books and website and I've actually got up the courage to go to one of his seminars early next year. I had a chat with him via his website so am feeling much more confident!!
I was taught all my Wado Ryu katas by good instructors up to 2nd Dan grade point ( though I was 1st Kyu) and my TSD forms up to Naihanchi (very similiar to Wado's Naihanchi) by an instructor. After that I'm on my own! 
To be honest I don't pick any in any order just ones I like the look of. I can't grade for 2nd Dan in TSD as there's no one to do it for me. I was graded 1st Dan five years ago, I swore then  I would never grade again but now I'd like to. I can't go to any other TSD club, there's nothing near me, two hours away by train is the nearest plus I teach and four nights a week, plus train MMA, work shifts and work on the MMA promotions so I'm left sad and sorry for myself practising kata all on my own.... ( say aaaah! ROFL)

Actually I'm looking forward to Iains seminar! Hopefully once I've broken the ice I can do several!!


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## Lynne (Nov 23, 2008)

Even if it were an advanced form and I had the book, I know I would try it.  At my level, I would probably be missing some preparations and breathing techniques though.

Our school has DVD's and one cannot learn entire forms from the DVD's as Master R has his back turned during parts of the form.  For instance, in the Chil-Sungs.  One can't see you are supposed to bring your palms to the shoulders "Pharoah-like."  One can't know one is supposed to push out all the air on the energy press unless one has been taught that. 

We have books for each level and I'm thinking about buying the red book belt.  I'm not sure it has our Passei forms though!

We have Grandmaster Byrne's This is Tang Soo Do but it's $110.  I'm sure I will buy it some day and see if I can learn all of the Chil-Sung and Yuk Rho forms, etc., if they are included.


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## Tez3 (Nov 23, 2008)

In the TSD book I have the demonstrator has also turned his back at several points, I have the suspicion that's so you have to go to classes to learn the whole!! The Wado book I have however is excellent shows, you can see all angles.
Lynne, that is a very expensive book!!


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## Lynne (Nov 23, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> In the TSD book I have the demonstrator has also turned his back at several points, I have the suspicion that's so you have to go to classes to learn the whole!! The Wado book I have however is excellent shows, you can see all angles.
> Lynne, that is a very expensive book!!


 Even in our Chil-Sung DVD's there are parts of the form left out.  Supposedly, it is to make sure we are going to class.  I've debated whether it's worth spending the money on DVD's where I can't see part of the form.  They seem to be more helpful after you have learned the techniques.

$110 is expensive.  The book is a tome (coffee table size and thick) though and loaded with demonstration photos.  I would have to flip through and make sure it's worth having before I bought it.  I can get two new uniforms for $110.


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## terryl965 (Nov 23, 2008)

The problem with learning dron DVD's and books is nobody there to make any correction that you may not know you have. An instructor is vital to one training no matter how could they are. Aster 45 years I still have my instructor correcting certain things for me, that I myself did not know I was doing.


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## Tez3 (Nov 23, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> The problem with learning dron DVD's and books is nobody there to make any correction that you may not know you have. An instructor is vital to one training no matter how could they are. Aster 45 years I still have my instructor correcting certain things for me, that I myself did not know I was doing.


 

That is the ideal situation and I really envy you! I find it extremely frustrating not to be able to train TSD but just teach it ( in childrens classes), I have no way of expanding my techniques nor of refreshing myself if you know what I mean. Our students never stay more than three years before they move on to another posting so I'm also never teaching more than beyond green/blue belts, I'd love to have a student all the way through their MA careers. It's one of the reasons it's better for us to teach MMA with it having no syllabus. We do get TMA people coming in from time to time, we've had Judo Dan grades, Shotokan Dans and JKD but never a TSD one. My instructor is 4th Dan Shotokan, plus Judo Dan grade, Atemi Jitsu and a couple of others but only like me a 1st Dan TSD. Military careers do at least offer the chance to train different styles lol!


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## JT_the_Ninja (Nov 23, 2008)

I have Kang Uk Lee's book on TSD, and I've tried out a few of the forms not taught by the ITF...once or twice... but since I have no clue if I'm getting it right or not, and since I haven't seen anything in them that I haven't learned from other forms/exercises, I haven't really done that for a while...

Now yesterday, I did, however, teach myself a "demonstration" from the fighting game Soul Calibur II...the particular character doesn't use a weapon, though, so it's pretty much just a (very short) open-hand sequence. Looks pretty cool, but it's just part of my geekery. I practice fighting game moves just for the heck of it sometimes...

But that's another story...


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## Flying Crane (Nov 24, 2008)

I have played with some videos in the past, and I've taught myself a couple of Chinese forms from them.  Ultimately, I let them go and stopped practicing them.  I never felt "right" about it, I knew in my heart that I didn't really understand them and I felt awkward about admiting to anyone that I was practicing them.  For me, it just didn't feel right.


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## DavidCC (Nov 24, 2008)

maunakumu said:


> Yup. I sat down with a book and a video and learned a form. I've never done that before, but I didn't have many other options. I like Tang Soo Do, but I've begun to have a very different take on the art and I haven't found any teachers out here who share my view of it. Thus, if I'm going to learn any of the advanced forms, without making a switch to another art, I'm left with self learning.
> 
> What does every one think? Would you ever teach yourself a form? If so, under what circumstances? If not, why not?


 
I've watched your videos and read your posts for a few years now, and it seems to me, although I am still new to the Arts, that you have a very good understanding of your system beyond the obvious level of what the moves are etc.  So I think that you are OK doing this.  In my opinion, you probably have the insight and knowledge to properly apply this form and analyze its place in the system.  

Perhaps you could correspond with someone in TSD who teaches the form and talk to them aobut yoru thoughts on it, taht might shore up any weak spots, stuff not covered by the book/DVD.  or even find omeone in another style that does the same form, that might give you even deeper understanding of it.

As long as you learn something from learning it, it can't be that bad.


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## Tez3 (Nov 24, 2008)

The thing I was wondering is how do you know they are right even if taught by an instructor? I've seen a lot of different 'versions' of TSD katas some very different from each other so who's right? TSD seems to do this far more than any other style I have looked at.  
The katas aren't a performance art they are meant to be used either for SD moves or fighting depending on your philosophy so as long as they work do they have to be literally text book perfect according to *a* instructor? another instructor may well say no thats not how you do it, yet another will disagree with that and come up with another version.
To my mind Maunakuma's version, self taught as they may be, will be every bit as valid as any others. I'd learn them from him for sure.


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## Muwubu16858 (Nov 24, 2008)

Out of sheer curiousity, what form did you teach yourself?


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## hkfuie (Nov 24, 2008)

I have to teach myself all my forms at this point.  Then when I get together with my instructor he can make corrections.

I have my own ideas on them, too, so I really enjoy bringing my own point of view to the table.  Even if he doesn't agree with me, he appreciates that I am actively learning new things.  That's encouraged in our tradition at BB.

I usually use printouts and a find a video on youtube that I can tolerate. Using them both usually gets me close enough to  maximize my time with my instructor.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 24, 2008)

Muwubu16858 said:


> Out of sheer curiousity, what form did you teach yourself?



Kong Sang Koon. I was going to learn this form and O Sip Sa Bo before I left MN and my teacher, but we could never get together to make this happen.  I've been looking for TSD instructors here in Hawaii, but its not a very common art out here...as weird as that sounds.  Also, I'm not really interested in this or that federations version of the art anyway.


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## Tez3 (Nov 24, 2008)

Kong San Goon I've done before in it's other guise as Kushanku. It's one of the ones I have done on my own as it's fairly easy to change the moves from Wado to TSD, along with the applications.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 24, 2008)

maunakumu said:


> What does every one think? Would you ever teach yourself a form? If so, under what circumstances? If not, why not?


 
Back when I was training Changquan (Long Fist) I got a video called Chung I Chuan and I taught myself the form but it was a best hollow without the basics to go with it


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## Tez3 (Nov 24, 2008)

The beauty of Kang San Goon though is that it's basically made up of all the other kata you will have done as a lower grade so you have all the building blocks plus the plan to put it together, the problem is as with all katas/forms/patterns learning the order of the movements. If you have done TSD before this form is probably the easiest to teach yourself.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 24, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> The beauty of Kang San Goon though is that it's basically made up of all the other kata you will have done as a lower grade so you have all the building blocks plus the plan to put it together, the problem is as with all katas/forms/patterns learning the order of the movements. If you have done TSD before this form is probably the easiest to teach yourself.



This is a good point and its one of the reasons why I decided to tackle it by myself.  The other thing to consider is that most TSD doesn't teach application any way.  I've had to go elsewhere or learn these by myself.


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## Tez3 (Nov 24, 2008)

maunakumu said:


> This is a good point and its one of the reasons why I decided to tackle it by myself. The other thing to consider is that most TSD doesn't teach application any way. I've had to go elsewhere or learn these by myself.


 
I found Jin Do easy to learn by myself too because that's the same as Chinto more or less. At risk of offending anyone I have to say the TSD forms are less complicated than the Wado ones. I don't know if anyone else finds this?
I get all my applications knowledge from Iain Abernethy's videos, books and forum. He does a free magazine Jissen as well. 
And I've even plucked up the courage to actually go on one of his seminars, I spoke to him via his forum and am looking forward to training with him sometime early next year.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 24, 2008)

maunakumu said:


> This is a good point and its one of the reasons why I decided to tackle it by myself. The other thing to consider is that most TSD doesn't teach application any way. I've had to go elsewhere or learn these by myself.


 
If you have an extensive background in a style you can teach yourself a form. Not necessarily as good as you would get with a teacher but you could do it. If someone already knows Chen Laojia Yilu and if I decided to go learn Chen Zhenglei's 19 or Chen Xiaowang's 38 it is likely they could do it quite easily. And if they had a good understanding of either the 19 or the 38 it is likely they could figure out Laojia Yilu but it would be a bit more difficult take a lot of attention to detail and one would have to be quite diligent. And even after that I would suggest finding a teacher to correct the form.

But knowing Laojia Yilu I would not recommend trying to learn Laojia Erlu or any of the Xinjia or Xiojia forms on your own


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## Lynne (Nov 26, 2008)

Last night, we worked on the first half of Chil-Sung Sam.  I have our school's Chil-Sung DVD and am going to see if I can learn the rest of the form from the DVD.

This week we aren't working on Passei Sol, so I am going to see if I can learn it from the red belt DVD and the red belt book.

I expect to be baffled but maybe I can at least familiarize myself with new movements (like that crane stance in Chil-Sung Sam).


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## Gi1 (Nov 27, 2008)

I'm planning on teaching myself one too, I'll go over it intensively with Masters when I've learnt the moves. What hyung is it that you taught yourself?


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## JWLuiza (Dec 30, 2008)

I taught myself Gojushiho Dai (what O Sip Sa Bo hyung is derived from). I find it easy now with youtube, friends in other styles and a broad base in my art. It took about an hour to get the whole sequence down, obviously longer to get it fully up to speed.


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