# Oldest Kukkiwon "black belt" at age 96 in the news



## mango.man (Jun 10, 2011)

So I took the original post from the 6 year old Black Belt thread and made a few modifications and I am just curious to see if it stirs up the same types of emotional responses.

I have bolded my changes
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Cole Becker, *9*6, is believed to be the oldest American to ever receive a Kukkiwon black belt. Earning a taekwondo black belt is a significant achievement for people of any age. For Taigon Taekwondo students, it is a three-day process. The first day is a written examination, the second day a test of strength and physical stamina with a 3-mile run, push-ups and sit-ups; and on the third day the display of taekwondo forms and techniques, including sparring.

Cole Becker had to exhibit the same proficiency as *younger* students, with two exceptions. *Adults over 6*4 break half-inch boards with kicks and chops, while *younger* students break bricks. Also, Cole's written test was actually an oral exam because h*is eyesight is poor and he has difficulty holding a pencil for an extended period due to arthritis*.

Cole scored very well on all his tests, including his written (oral) exam. One requirement was that he had to know Korean numbers 1 to 100 as well as many other Korean words.

The best thing about taekwondo, Cole Becker said, "is that I get to be in the same class as my *great grandchildren*." That would be 8-year-old Seth, also a black belt.
----

Or you could swap out the 6 year old kid part and put in it's place a 26 year old man with Downs Syndrome.  Those types of stories are often received well and with great praise even though it is highly improbable that they did the same exact test as the perfectly healthy adults did.  Where is the bashing of the downs syndrome people?
Begin the ranting now...


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## Nomad (Jun 10, 2011)

Well, there are a couple of key differences between this hypothetical situation and the real life one originally posted.  For instance, in the case of a 96 year old receiving his black belt, you're unlikely to be setting him up for disappointment later in life when he figures out that he's not as tough as he might have thought he was.

Also, while I haven't met a 96 year old who could kick my butt (yet), I have met at least one who was at least 76 who could do so handily.  Not so much with the 6 year olds (and yes, I'd argue a far bigger difference between 6 & 26 than between 76 & 96, sorry).

I think we can assume that the 96 year old has the maturity many of us would like to see in a black belt, and would likely be a better teacher than the 6 year old.


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## mango.man (Jun 10, 2011)

OK, so to Nomad it all seems to boil down to maturity.

Anyone else?


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## Twin Fist (Jun 10, 2011)

no way i would consider someone testing at 96 as bad as a child


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## ATC (Jun 10, 2011)

Ha ha ha...nice twist.

Most people only get upset due to their egos. "How can a (insert age) have the same belt as me"?

They don't realize it has nothing to do with them. It doesn't even hurt the art, that is just something they toss out there.

My black belt has nothing to do with anyone else but me. If any school gave out black belts to 2,3, 4, hell... newborns, would not and could not affect my efforts and work put towards getting my belt.

I do the best I can for me. Others do the best they can for them. I can line up 50 master of all the same rank and all 50 will teach different from one another. All 50 will have different skill levels. All 50 will understand or percive the same things differently. And I can bet pennies to dollars that if pitted against one another that there would not be a 50 way tie in a fight. Meaning that the range of effectivness would vary between each.

People just need to live and let live. That 6 year old black belt has no affect on what I learn, do, or know. If it is affecting any of you then you all have bigger issues than him for doing what he was asked to do to get the belt or rank he earned.


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## StudentCarl (Jun 10, 2011)

If I can do that at 96 you need to bow down in respect to my tiger blood!


(6 or 96: an accomplishment to be proud of!)


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## mango.man (Jun 10, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> no way i would consider someone testing at 96 as bad as a child



Why?  In many cases 96 year old's are nothing more than old children.  I think it was George Carlin that said "Old people are really nothing more than bent kids".  

Maybe the "Cole Becker" in my story, craps himself 2 times a day, is unable to feed himself and needs help crossing the street.  

Maybe the Cole Becker in the original is a true child prodigy.

You just don't know in either case and if you base your opinions of if they should be a black belt solely on the age of the subject in the article than that is your problem.


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## Nomad (Jun 10, 2011)

mango.man said:


> OK, so to Nomad it all seems to boil down to maturity.
> 
> Anyone else?



Wow, way to condescendingly distill a post into one word. 

While maturity absolutely plays a role in my mind, I think I mentioned several other differences.  Since you apparently missed or dismissed them, I'll elaborate.

1.  Less likely to get his butt kicked by someone wanting to prove they're a better fighter than a black belt.  Or for mouthing off to someone about how tough they are.

2. I have met some very tough, ornery old men (often ex-military) who I would absolutely not want to pick a fight with!  So I think it more likely that a 96 year old could actually back up their black belt physically than a 6 year old could.  If nothing else, their mind is much more devious, and they'd be way more likely to cheat 

3. Maturity

4. I believe that an old man (or woman) who'd just received a black belt would likely make a much much better teacher than a child in passing on the information and techniques.  They will most likely be more detail oriented and have better communication skills.

Now, keep in mind I never said that I agree with giving a 96 year old a black belt; I was simply pointing out a few ways these two people and situations were likely to be different.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 10, 2011)

ATC said:


> Most people only get upset due to their egos. "How can a (insert age) have the same belt as me"?



horse hockey

it upsets people becasue it is WRONG and FRAUDULENT to tell some poor kids parents he is a BB level martial artist when he still wets the bed reguarly


ATC said:


> It doesn't even hurt the art, that is just something they toss out there.



again, HORSE HOCKEY

it is cheesy BS and one instructor doing cheesy BS makes everyone else look cheesy



ATC said:


> My black belt has nothing to do with anyone else but me. If any school gave out black belts to 2,3, 4, hell... newborns, would not and could not affect my efforts and work put towards getting my belt.



yes it does, see above.



ATC said:


> People just need to live and let live. That 6 year old black belt has no affect on what I learn, do, or know. If it is affecting any of you then you all have bigger issues than him for doing what he was asked to do to get the belt or rank he earned.




hose hockey take 3

no, the problem is that too many people live and let live, in the old days, everyone feared blackbelts because NO ONE promoted people that were not 100% badasses.

now? thanks to instructors that lie and cheat and steal and do ANYTHING to make another buck, (mostly korean) you tell someone you are a blackbelt, they laugh, say "so if my 6 year old, so what" and walk away

THATS THE PROBLEM

in the old days, everyone had standards because if someone tried the crap the koreans do these days? the other blackbelts in town would go over and have a little chat with him, and he would start flying right, or close up shop

i miss the old days


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## Archtkd (Jun 10, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> THATS THE PROBLEM
> 
> in the old days, everyone had standards because if someone tried the crap the koreans do these days? the other blackbelts in town would go over and have a little chat with him, and he would start flying right, or close up shop . i miss the old days


 
There's still one place where truth often comes out: The dojang floor. It never lies. That floor, eventually or sometimes quickly, exposes the fakes. It forces those who come in with belts they don't deserve to improve, voluntarily downgrade, or simply quit, even when no words are spoken. That floor, when abused, will shame the lazy or bogus teacher too. That's why you see so many places where the master listed in the phone book as the head teacher never actually teaches. He collects all the money, though, from all those who never took time to obseve what the dojang floor might have told them.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 10, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> There's still one place where truth often comes out: The dojang floor. It never lies. That floor, eventually or sometimes quickly, exposes the fakes. It forces those who come in with belts they don't deserve to improve, voluntarily downgrade, or simply quit, even when no words are spoken. .




QFT i love it


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## ATC (Jun 10, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> horse hockey
> 
> it upsets people becasue it is WRONG and FRAUDULENT to tell some poor kids parents he is a BB level martial artist when he still wets the bed reguarly
> 
> ...


You just proved my point. Thank you.


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## mango.man (Jun 10, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> horse hockey
> 
> it upsets people becasue it is WRONG and FRAUDULENT to tell some poor kids parents he is a BB level martial artist when he still wets the bed reguarly
> 
> ...



This thread is about a 96 year old, not a 6 year.  A 96 year old that probably wets his bed more often than the 6 year old does and probably wears diapers to, something that the 6 year old has been out of for at least a couple of years yet you don't see a problem with giving the 96 year old diaper wearing bed wetter a BlackBelt.

So obviously wetting the bed can't be a criteria to deny a person (6 or 96) a BB.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 10, 2011)

Mango, you are picking nits

and no, this thread is about a 6 year old, the 96 yr old is pure fiction to prove a point. But the point is moot, cuz the 96 year old would at least be emotionally mature enough to grasp what a BB means.





ATC, you know how i feel about your school, and everything i said is my opinion, you dont have to agree, you  can keep doing what you have been doing.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 10, 2011)

Just curious, what are the timber breaks required for a kukkiwon black belt? I just cant imagine a 6 year old OR a 96 year old breaking decent timber with a decent tech. That would be one concern, also I dont imagine either having nice high, balanced side kicks (or any other kick for that matter) in their form. Id love to have seen this kid grade. Ive seen some 6 year olds that were very good 'for their age', but remove the age thing and actually study their technique the way you would an adult and in all honesty they are pretty crap.


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## StagTown (Jun 10, 2011)

> what are the timber breaks required for a kukkiwon black belt?



1 in rebreakable with sidekick, students under 16 are no longer allowed to break.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 10, 2011)

StagTown said:


> 1 in rebreakable with sidekick, students under 16 are no longer allowed to break.


If all that is required is a side kick break then anyone could pass that part of the test. My daughter was 7 years old when she started and broke with a sidekick on her second night aas a white belt, and she is not a gifted martial artist. I really thought for black belt it would be something a little more difficult.


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## Archtkd (Jun 10, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Just curious, what are the timber breaks required for a kukkiwon black belt? I just cant imagine a 6 year old OR a 96 year old breaking decent timber with a decent tech. That would be one concern, also I dont imagine either having nice high, balanced side kicks (or any other kick for that matter) in their form. Id love to have seen this kid grade. Ive seen some 6 year olds that were very good 'for their age', but remove the age thing and actually study their technique the way you would an adult and in all honesty they are pretty crap.


 
You are missing the point. What have timber breaks or anything you as an adult consider "decent" blackbelt worthy stuff have anything to do with a six-year old child earning a Taekwondo poom rank from the Kukkiwon? The Kukkiwon blackbelt grade that children earn is called a poom grade. There is a reason that the Kukkiwon makes that distinction, from dan rank for adults. 

I think a better way to look at this whole saga is to compare the performance of the child in question with his peers (children). The idea that 50, 40 and 30 somethings are making all this noise about a six year old, who probably did the best he could, is a bit disturbing. If the news story is to be entirely believed the child has already put in at least three years of training to his Taekwondo. How many children that age can make a similar claim? 

Along those lines, I bet the news reporter also made his own interpretetion of the facts, and probably didn't know enough to ask critical questions. That's how things often work at newspapers, especially today when few veterans remain in the business. Also, many instructors -- who rarely talk to media people -- have a tendency to stretch the truth to gain publicity, expecially if the intructor is talking to an ignorant reporter. If you were a dojang owner, would you want to bog down a story with unnecessary details about the differences between adult and child blacbelt ranks, particularly if children are your main target?


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 10, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> You are missing the point. What have timber breaks or anything you as an adult consider "decent" blackbelt worthy stuff have anything to do with a six-year old child earning a Taekwondo poom rank from the Kukkiwon? The Kukkiwon blackbelt grade that children earn is called a poom grade. There is a reason that the Kukkiwon makes that distinction, from dan rank for adults.
> 
> I think a better way to look at this whole saga is to compare the performance of the child in question with his peers (children). The idea that 50, 40 and 30 somethings are making all this noise about a six year old, who probably did the best he could, is a bit disturbing. If the news story is to be entirely believed the child has already put in at least three years of training to his Taekwondo. How many children that age can make a similar claim?
> 
> Along those lines, I bet the news reporter also made his own interpretetion of the facts, and probably didn't know enough to ask critical questions. That's how things often work at newspapers, especially today when few veterans remain in the business. Also, many instructors -- who rarely talk to media people -- have a tendency to stretch the truth to gain publicity, expecially if the intructor is talking to an ignorant reporter. If you were a dojang owner, would you want to bog down a story with unnecessary details about the differences between adult and child blacbelt ranks, particularly if children are your main target?


I was sure it was said in another thread (please correct me if Im wrong) that even if this kid never trains again he can have his 'poom' belt changed to a black belt at age 18. If thats the case then he did get a black belt because with no further training it will become a black belt. The reason I commented on his timber break was because if it really is as easy as breaking with a side kick to get a black belt with the kukkiwon then full marks to the kid, he deserves his belt every bit as much as every other kukkiwon black belt out there despite his age. For me personally (and the club I train at) there is no way a side kick break is a black belt technique. So I am probably having a go at the grading requirements rather than the kid himself. If some org is happy to throw a black belt to a 6 year old then its not the kid's fault, he has trained to their standards and deserves the rewards.


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## Archtkd (Jun 11, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I was sure it was said in another thread (please correct me if Im wrong) that even if this kid never trains again he can have his 'poom' belt changed to a black belt at age 18. If thats the case then he did get a black belt because with no further training it will become a black belt. The reason I commented on his timber break was because if it really is as easy as breaking with a side kick to get a black belt with the kukkiwon then full marks to the kid, he deserves his belt every bit as much as every other kukkiwon black belt out there despite his age. For me personally (and the club I train at) there is no way a side kick break is a black belt technique. So I am probably having a go at the grading requirements rather than the kid himself. If some org is happy to throw a black belt to a 6 year old then its not the kid's fault, he has trained to their standards and deserves the rewards.


 
This is not personal but I think you are pegging this child to your world and faulty understanding of what a Kukkiwon poom grade is. 

The child trained in Taekwondo for three years under a Taekwondo instructor didn't he? Did he spend three years breaking timber? Many of us can pick most street children in Nairobi or grown thugs and teach them to break timber with what looks like a fantastic technique after a month of training. Those street and thugs can, without any training, do a lot of the physical garbage so many people assume is a prerequisite for blackbelt rank. But can they be called Kukkiwon Taekwondoin?

Further, assuming the child never trained again and at 18 years of age was awarded a Kukkiwon dan certificate, what would that mean? What would he use it for and how would that affect you, the suppossedly bona fide dan holder? Show off in the dojang? Enter an international competition? Demonstrate his advanced techniques to the public? Fight gangsters? Teach? Hang it on the wall? Maybe it might help the discussion if you could tell us excactly what you do with your hard earned non-Kukkiwon dan certificate.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 11, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> This is not personal but I think you are pegging this child to your world and faulty understanding of what a Kukkiwon poom grade is.
> 
> The child trained in Taekwondo for three years under a Taekwondo instructor didn't he? Did he spend three years breaking timber? Many of us can pick most street children in Nairobi or grown thugs and teach them to break timber with what looks like a fantastic technique after a month of training. Those street and thugs can, without any training, do a lot of the physical garbage so many people assume is a prerequisite for blackbelt rank. But can they be called Kukkiwon Taekwondoin?
> 
> Further, assuming the child never trained again and at 18 years of age was awarded a Kukkiwon dan certificate, what would that mean? What would he use it for and how would that affect you, the suppossedly bona fide dan holder? Show off in the dojang? Enter an international competition? Demonstrate his advanced techniques to the public? Fight gangsters? Teach? Hang it on the wall? Maybe it might help the discussion if you could tell us excactly what you do with your hard earned non-Kukkiwon dan certificate.


I 100% agree with you first statement. I was "pegging this child to my world and faulty understanding of what a Kukkiwon poom grade is". I assumed the kukkiwon grading requirements were more demanding than they are, so I couldnt understand how a 6 year old could possibly get a black belt. Now, understanding what he had to do to get the black belt it all makes sense. I cant agree though that you could grab a child from nairobi or grown thugs and teach them to break timber with what looks like a fantastic tech after a months training. Unless, of course, we are calling a side kick break a "fantastic looking tech". I would consider a jump spinning hook kick or 540 kick a "fantastic looking tech", but thats just me.


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## Archtkd (Jun 11, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I 100% agree with you first statement. I was "pegging this child to my world and faulty understanding of what a Kukkiwon poom grade is". I assumed the kukkiwon grading requirements were more demanding than they are, so I couldnt understand how a 6 year old could possibly get a black belt. Now, understanding what he had to do to get the black belt it all makes sense. I cant agree though that you could grab a child from nairobi or grown thugs and teach them to break timber with what looks like a fantastic tech after a months training. Unless, of course, we are calling a side kick break a "fantastic looking tech". I would consider a jump spinning hook kick or 540 kick a "fantastic looking tech", but thats just me.


 
That's a thread for another day, but if you ever get a chance, visit the Kenyan cities of Nairobi or Mombasa one day, get off the tourist path and check out the street action. You will be amazed. In Nairobi, where I grew up, I've seen and encountered untrained glue sniffing street kids, with fighting techniques and stunts that would shame many blackbelts of various styles. I've seen some of those kids challenge serious blackbelts in WTF sparring after only a few months of training. Turning those street kids into bonafide blackbelts is another story, though. But some of them acquire the discipline when they can find a good teacher, willing to teach them for free. One of those former street kids, who trained in the dojang where I began Taekwondo, is now Kenya's Taekwondo team national coach.

It's not just in the Third World where there are kids with amazing physical talent honed in the streets. Here in St. Louis, where I live, kids fly past my house in bicycles and skateboards and pull spectacular stunts that make me believe any good Taekwondo instructor could teach them how to break with a 540 spin kick in a very short time. But again, it might require an Herculean effort from even the best Taekwondoin to turn those kids into a Kukkiwon poom or dan holder.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 11, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> That's a thread for another day, but if you ever get a chance, visit the Kenyan cities of Nairobi or Mombasa one day, get off the tourist path and check out the street action. You will be amazed. In Nairobi, where I grew up, I've seen and encountered untrained glue sniffing street kids, with fighting techniques and stunts that would shame many blackbelts of various styles. I've seen some of those kids challenge serious blackbelts in WTF sparring after only a few months of training. Turning those street kids into bonafide blackbelts is another story, though. But some of them acquire the discipline when they can find a good teacher, willing to teach them for free. One of those former street kids, who trained in the dojang where I began Taekwondo, is now Kenya's Taekwondo team national coach.
> 
> It's not just in the Third World where there are kids with amazing physical talent honed in the streets. Here in St. Louis, where I live, kids fly past my house in bicycles and skateboards and pull spectacular stunts that make me believe any good Taekwondo instructor could teach them how to break with a 540 spin kick in a very short time. But again, it might require an Herculean effort from even the best Taekwondoin to turn those kids into a Kukkiwon poom or dan holder.


I can see where you are coming from. I have a friend who is a dancer. He heard me and one of my tkd mates talking about 540 kicks (which I cant do) and he asked what the hell a 540 kick is. We described it to him and said "oh, so it would be like this", and just did a 540 kick right there in front of us without a days MA training in his life. Very frustrating, but some people are just amazing when it comes to stuff like that.


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## puunui (Jun 13, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> I think a better way to look at this whole saga is to compare the performance of the child in question with his peers (children). The idea that 50, 40 and 30 somethings are making all this noise about a six year old, who probably did the best he could, is a bit disturbing.




Your comment and observation holds even more truth when looked at from an area in which we do already judge by comparison to one's peers. You see a seven year old who wins double gold in their respective division at a tournament. We all generally praise this practitioner for their extraordinary work, talent and ability. What we don't do is attempt to downplay their accomplishment by saying that they are not up to the standards of an adult and that if paired against an adult, that child would most certainly lose, therefore they are undeserving of their win.


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