# Has MMA done harm to martial arts



## DeLamar.J (Mar 1, 2009)

I love MMA but at times I think it has done alot of harm to the martial arts world. Most people think that you have to compete in UFC to prove that your art is effective. Real kung Fu was not made for a sporting event. There are people who train in iron palm who can break 7 bricks free standing with no spacers, why would they join a fight where they have to cover up their hands? Wing Chun concentrates on strikes to vital areas that MMA events dont allow, so why the hate for the WC guys who go into the cage under rules they are not used to following?
There is so much disrespect from MMA people trying to discredit real martial artists because they wont fight in MMA.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 1, 2009)

DeLamar.J said:


> I love MMA but at times I think it has done alot of harm to the martial arts world.



That's an interesting question, but overall, I think I doubt that MMA has done any damage to traditional martial arts, and may have done it some good.

In what way would it 'do harm' to martial arts?

There appears to be a renewal of interest in martial arts of all types, not unlike that which appeared when TV shows like "Kung Fu" were new and Bruce Lee hit the scene like an atom bomb.



> Most people think that you have to compete in UFC to prove that your art is effective.



Well, maybe immature people.



> Real kung Fu was not made for a sporting event. There are people who train in iron palm who can break 7 bricks free standing with no spacers, why would they join a fight where they have to cover up their hands? Wing Chun concentrates on strikes to vital areas that MMA events dont allow, so why the hate for the WC guys who go into the cage under rules they are not used to following?



I hear your frustration.  But why feel bad about not competing in a sport you don't want to compete in?  I'm not quite getting that.



> There is so much disrespect from MMA people trying to discredit real martial artists because they wont fight in MMA.



Maybe I don't get out enough.  I haven't seen that.  Just looking at the example here on MT, I see people getting along and not having wars over style, method, training, etc for the most part.

My thought is that people who are interested in MMA as their primary motivator are not generally interested in training in traditional martial arts, and they would not be even if there was no MMA.  And vice-versa.

If I were walking down the street and some guy told me _"Hey, your karate stinks, MMA is where it's at,"_ I'd laugh.  Sounds like an old chop-socky movie.  Fine with me!

On the other hand, it seems to me that young people might see MMA events on TV, get interested, and check out a local dojo or kwoon, whatever.  They might like what they see or they might not, but at least they thought about it and looked into it.  If they choose MMA anyway, I kind of doubt they'd be into learning formal bows and the Japanese or Chinese words for forms or kata.


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## Tez3 (Mar 1, 2009)

I think it has done less harm than 6 year old BBs, 10 year old 2nd Dans etc.
I've seen no hate for any paricular style in MMA, remember that the UFC isn't the whole of MMA, it's one promotion. The UFC and other MMA promotions offer competition, thats all. They don't sell it as self defence or anything other than it is - a sporting competition.
I would dispute too that theres disrespect for TMA people, I think thats simply not true. You will get the armchair critics but every sport has them, whenever the England footie team lose you should hear people go on about what should have happened, who should have played and what the team tactics were, everyones an expert.
As with the OP though I have read plenty of the disrespect going the other way, MMA is more often disrespected by TMA people than TMA is by MMAers, simply because many MMAers come from a TMA background.


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## Big Don (Mar 1, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I think it has done less harm than 6 year old BBs, 10 year old 2nd Dans etc.


I was going to say less than McDojos, but, yeah, what she said.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 1, 2009)

i will agree with Tez, the mcdojo does more harm, but MMA has been a terrible influence on the martial arts world as a whole, in my opinion.


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## StrongFighter (Mar 1, 2009)

MMA is basically one step away from being a bloodsport. 

I do enjoy watching UFC and Pride championships, however, the egos in some of the men on MMA tv are just overkill lol.

MMA does help in some ways like looking into judo or sambo and becoming dedicated to one or two martial arts.

People do not get into that kind of thing with hardcore MMA, maybe judo or karate tournaments. 

Most people normally sign up for self defense or health reasons.


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## Steve (Mar 1, 2009)

Personally, my opinion is that MMA as a discipline has done the world of Martial Arts a whole hell of a lot of good.  Renewed interest in training, and a greater awareness and understanding of the distinction between many arts.  10 years ago, to the average person, martial arts were all the same.  Wassaaaaa!  Now, I'd bet that most people understand the difference between a striking art and a grappling art, if not more.

I think that what has damaged martial arts is the marketing machine and the direction that the various MMA promotions have chosen to take the sport.  Extreme knockout videos, blood, team psycho, ultimate badass, blah, blah.  THAT is ridiculous and bad for everyone, even MMA.  But right now, it's making money.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 1, 2009)

DeLamar.J said:


> Real kung Fu was not made for a sporting event.



I think this is a bit of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

Kung Fu has been used for sporting events for a very long time, in a much more dangerous environment then MMA.  Do a little search into "Lei Tai".

Nowadays Sanshou is quite popular, and still uses the Lei Tai, but the sport has been made safer through rules and equipment.



> There are people who train in iron palm who can break 7 bricks free standing with no spacers, why would they join a fight where they have to cover up their hands?



Breaking bricks and fighting are two very different activities, and they will draw different sorts of people too them.  



> Wing Chun concentrates on strikes to vital areas that MMA events dont allow, so why the hate for the WC guys who go into the cage under rules they are not used to following?



Not too long ago all those rules didn't exist, and a couple guys did try to compete.  It didn't work out well for them though, Wing chun training simply doesn't translate well into MMA fighting.

No need to get defensive about that though, MMA training does not translate well into wing chun fighting, chi sau and other things.  We do different things, and have different objectives, which results in different skill sets.



> There is so much disrespect from MMA people trying to discredit real martial artists because they wont fight in MMA.



Have to admit, I don't see much of that.  Even among the folks you are seeing the majority of the time I've seen anyone make those sorts of claims is when someone claims their style, which doesn't compete, would easily win if it did compete, except that their style is "above competition" and "too dangerous."

Which is silly, it's like me claiming I "could" beat you at Chi sau, but I don't want to, because I might hurt you.

If you don't train for MMA fighting, you are not going to do well at it, I don't think anyone expects it to be any different.  Well, ok, some people might give you a hard time about it, but it goes both ways, there are also Wing Chun people that claim Wing Chun would mop the floor in the cage, except no one will fight because of some silly reason.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 1, 2009)

DeLamar.J said:


> I love MMA but at times I think it has done alot of harm to the martial arts world. Most people think that you have to compete in UFC to prove that your art is effective. Real kung Fu was not made for a sporting event. There are people who train in iron palm who can break 7 bricks free standing with no spacers, why would they join a fight where they have to cover up their hands? Wing Chun concentrates on strikes to vital areas that MMA events dont allow, so why the hate for the WC guys who go into the cage under rules they are not used to following?
> There is so much disrespect from MMA people trying to discredit real martial artists because they wont fight in MMA.



In the 50's it was Karate, and in the 60's it was Judo or Jujitsu, in the 70's it was full contact TKD/TSD/Karate and even some Muay Thia. In the 80's it was weapons based systems, and then in the 90's MMA took off. 


Of course there was overlap more then listed above. It is generality I made. 

In each era if you were not part of the "In" groups then you were not training well. 

No one wants to train in second best. 


In the early and mid 80's if you did not train in a kicking art in my area you were not training in an art that would give you the best self defense. Weapons based systems could give you self defense but even today people think that without a weapon they are defenseless. 


I think that MMA is having its' time in the big lights, and that is good. 

I think people should train in what they want too. There will always be people looking for the popular system or art or what have you.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 1, 2009)

well, for me it is simple

without the UFC and MMA, i wouldnt have to deal with the Gracie fan wanks and all thier "if you dont grapple you suck" non-sense...

just the loss of those headaches would put my world a lot closer to being in balance......


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## Sandstorm (Mar 1, 2009)

This is the first time a real contact fighting sport has hit mainstream success. Boxing has fallen by the wayside with all the politics and BS surrounding it. Martial Arts have not been great television. Now, we are seeing standard rules in the main events so that the audience can learn, undertstand and appreciate the techniques involved. 
When the UFC first hit the world, people were astounded at this little guy in pyjamas choking out burly 'tough guys' and 'expert' martial artists. What surprised me in the earlier events was the completely fictitious arts that were represented like 'Pit fighting' and 'Trap Fighting' LOOOL!!
Now, I know a handful of people who sent in their applications to the UFC to fight, and all were declined. Not sure if I want to suggest that the matchmakers had alterior motives, but those eary days sure stank of BS. I am pleased to see a more balanced approach to matchmaking nowadays, with true champs fighting each other in their own weight bracket.

Now, onto the actual question at hand. My response would be that on the one hand, yes, it has made the TMAs look bad, but only to the armchair numpties who swig their Heinekin and dribble it down their string vests. It's also made evryone an expert, like the football fans who have every answer under the sun while sat on their fat arses. But, who cares about the ignorant?

On the other hand, I would say absolutely not. It has encouraged people to take an interest in combat sports. It's opened the eyes of these WWF fanatics and shown them that, while 'Show' wrestling is 'entertainment', it sure as hell isn't 'fighting'. It has encouraged people to want to cross train and do what Bruce Lee did with Dan Inosanto all those years ago. Blend, learn, study and incorporate what works and throw out what doesn't. Make the arts work for YOU!

My main gripe with this whole MMA uprising, is that now, I see styles turning their back on their traditional syllabus and incorporating Grappling where there was none before. IMO, that's not a good thing. If the student wants to grapple as well as strike, they should take a second class with an experienced grappler. Some teachers have no business altering their syllabus to make money off false claims.

Kind regards
John


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## searcher (Mar 1, 2009)

If any aprt of MMA has done damage to te MA, it is the show Ultimate Fighter.   Most, not all, of the guys on the show end up making fools of themselves and in turn, give the MA a bad name.    Outside of that, I don't see it as having done any major damage.   I hate to see guys changing their styles technical base to make it more MMA capable.    Don't lose sight of where you come from or you will lose track of where you are going.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 1, 2009)

I used to think that MMA was a bad influence on the martial arts community but I've altered my opinion on the matter.

There are people in the sport that are scummy and talk about how TMA suck or how a particular MA is weak or ineffective, but there are those kind of people in every martial arts system. These jerks are everywhere.

What I can't stand are the people who come off as if MMA were the epitomy of martial arts mastery, you know those who believe they've one upped the samurai or the roman gladiators, and they are the pinnicle of combative prowess.

MMA only really bothers me when people forget it is a sport and sport fighting is different not only because of the rules, but because the "energy" is idfferent too.

By "energy", I am refering to how fighters in the ring square off and are ready to exchange hits looking for an opening and lasts several minutes on occassion, but in a life or death fight the energy changes to that of being totally kill or be killed and happens instantaneous. Those who have been in both sport fights and SD situations should know what I mean.


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## tellner (Mar 1, 2009)

On the whole I think it's been positive. 

For a long, long time we went to the dojo where we ignorant foreigners were privileged to sit at the feet of the Masters and bask in the Wisdom of the Orient. 

There was precious little in the way of reality checks. There was a lot of mumbo jumbo. The brainwashing was - and in some cases still is - ludicrous. Funny costumes. Stilted language. Fortune cookie philosophy. Ridiculous subordination that you normally only find in a S&M club. And of course you had to Believe. 

The Gracies asked a very simple question: Can you fight? 

They proved pretty conclusively that their stuff worked. It still works well enough that everyone has to learn the rudiments in order to deal with it. Kudos to them. Of course, sooner or later everyone learns your tricks. Gracie Ju Jitsu is just one of several methods that people draw from. The family isn't unbeatable anymore.

A lot of egos got bruised. Grand Master this and Shihan that found out that their stuff wasn't teh d34dl33 the way they had been told by Great Grandmaster thus-and-such or Soke whatsis. Business dropped off just like it had for others in their time. Marketing alone - and I include worshipful stories about great fighters in the dim past to be marketing - wouldn't sell the product anymore now that there was a place where young aggressive guys could watch people get beat up for real and have a go if they were willing to put in the hard work. 

It's certainly fueled a period of development and innovation in the martial arts. People from different groups are fighting and talking with each other to see how they can produce real-world success. What works in the ring will survive among the prizefighters. What doesn't won't.

Of course, MMA will become annoying in its own ways. And eventually it will give way to something else. Until then we should be glad of this period of cross-fertilization and the reality check it's given everyone.


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## StrongFighter (Mar 1, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> By "energy", I am refering to how fighters in the ring square off and are ready to exchange hits looking for an opening and lasts several minutes on occassion, but in a life or death fight the energy changes to that of being totally kill or be killed and happens instantaneous. Those who have been in both sport fights and SD situations should know what I mean.


 
MMA and prison fighting are two totally different environments as is the battlefield environment which resembles close combat in prison with knives, improvised weapons and bare hands in a wartime environment.

Illegally held matches where one dies and the another goes home is also a very different environment from the MMA ring.

There is nothing like it ever before or since, after you have experienced life and death close combat.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 1, 2009)

The most "Harm" MMA has done is get some groups of people convinced that MMA is "Human Dogfighting" and then they call for a ban on the martial arts.  So far, this hasn't happened beyond some places calling for the banning of MMA tounaments, which if I am correct (its been a while since we had those threads) all got shot down pretty quickly (those bans) so until it gets to the point that it puts other arts in Jeapordy I'd say, no it hasn't done harm, just created an annoying new batch of "OMFNG mah MMA is so 7334 it pwns you wanna be ninjers" on the net.


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## Thesemindz (Mar 1, 2009)

DeLamar.J said:


> I love MMA but at times I think it has done alot of harm to the martial arts world. Most people think that you have to compete in UFC to prove that your art is effective.


 
What can you do, there's jerks everywhere. If you ignore them, they eventually move on to someplace where they will find validation.



> Real kung Fu was not made for a sporting event.


 
Depending on who you listen to, "real" kung fu was made primarily for fitness, and was adapted to self defense.



> There are people who train in iron palm who can break 7 bricks free standing with no spacers, why would they join a fight where they have to cover up their hands?


 
Good question. Why would they? What do they stand to gain? Is it pride? If so, then should we care that much when their pride is wounded?



> Wing Chun concentrates on strikes to vital areas that MMA events dont allow, so why the hate for the WC guys who go into the cage under rules they are not used to following?


 
Why are they going into the ring under rules they are not used to following? Why don't they either stick to their own arena, or learn the rules of the new one? Why try to fit their square peg into someone else's round hole?



> There is so much disrespect from MMA people trying to discredit real martial artists because they wont fight in MMA.


 
See above comment relating to jerks.

Ultimately, I think MMA has done some bad, and a lot more good. But in the end, the good or bad it does is unique to every practitioner. Is it doing good or bad for you and your training? That's really all that should matter.


-Rob


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## MJS (Mar 1, 2009)

DeLamar.J said:


> I love MMA but at times I think it has done alot of harm to the martial arts world. Most people think that you have to compete in UFC to prove that your art is effective. Real kung Fu was not made for a sporting event. There are people who train in iron palm who can break 7 bricks free standing with no spacers, why would they join a fight where they have to cover up their hands? Wing Chun concentrates on strikes to vital areas that MMA events dont allow, so why the hate for the WC guys who go into the cage under rules they are not used to following?
> There is so much disrespect from MMA people trying to discredit real martial artists because they wont fight in MMA.


 
I'd say its one good and bad.  

The good:  Its opened the eyes of people to the importance of being well rounded, that grappling is important, that its important to train with some resistance/aliveness.

The bad:  People think that if they don't see it in the cage, then it won't work, its no good, and that unless you jump into the ring, you suck.  The attitudes of some of the people, mainly what you see on TUF...well, lets say that some of those folks need to grow up.  

Like I always say, IMO, I think that everyone can benefit from TMA and MMA.  Frankly, I don't really care if someone thinks my arts are no good.  I'm not out to impress anyone, especially a MMAist.  As long as what I do works for me, thats all that matters IMO.


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## SensibleManiac (Mar 1, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> There is nothing like it ever before or since, after you have experienced life and death close combat.



?


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## suicide (Mar 1, 2009)

mma brung martial arts back from the dead in my opinion :shooter:


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## mook jong man (Mar 1, 2009)

The good that it has done is that it has woken people up to the fact that you need to have some training on the ground .

The bad that it has done is the disrespect that some of the participants show to their opponents both before the match and sometimes after they defeat them .

 Young people watch this stuff and think that is how you should act , I don't know if it is an American thing , I think you call it trash talking or something. 

 I used to see it a lot on the UFCs. I find it extremely repulsive , in Australia the quickest way for any sportsman to be hated is to be a cocky braggart , and we don't care how talented you are . As a nation it just rubs us up the wrong way .

 Another thing is that over here we are starting to see a phenomenon of " Fight Clubs " amongst schoolboys , one died here a couple of days ago from injuries he sustained. 
These are done after school with a multitude of people watching and recording them on their phones and then uploaded to Youtube .

 I don't know if this recent phenomenon is caused by Hollywood movies glamorising violence or because of UFC type contests I suspect it maybe a little of both.

 I just think that some of the people in the MMA contests should just be a little bit more aware of the image they are projecting .

 Maybe try being a little bit more like Cro Cop and a little bit less like Tito Ortiz , I think that Cro Cop is a wonderful ambassador for the sport along with a few others.


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## terryl965 (Mar 1, 2009)

A;; it has done is make money off of sport people, just like Karate and Tae Kwon Do. MMA is about playing by a set of rules and those that can learn and adapt will help carry the image.

I have to say it is a great sport but the overall image of Martial Arts keep getting wrapped up in the sport aspect of MMA.

One day I wish for well educated people so they will know the difference between a sport and Self Defense.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 1, 2009)

DeLamar.J said:


> I love MMA but at times I think it has done alot of harm to the martial arts world. Most people think that you have to compete in UFC to prove that your art is effective. Real kung Fu was not made for a sporting event. There are people who train in iron palm who can break 7 bricks free standing with no spacers, why would they join a fight where they have to cover up their hands? Wing Chun concentrates on strikes to vital areas that MMA events dont allow, so why the hate for the WC guys who go into the cage under rules they are not used to following?
> There is so much disrespect from MMA people trying to discredit real martial artists because they wont fight in MMA.


I think that MMA has been overall beneficial to martial arts.  It has certainly encouraged cross training and I think that overall, serious martial artists are much better prepared and much better educated about what is outside of their own core art.

I think that most of the MMA disrespect comes from armchair fighters.  They also train as armchair quarterbacks, armchair pitchers, and armchair basketball centers.  They seem to have opinions about why everything that isn't "MMA" sucks.  But then, these really aren't mixed martial artists.  They're just fanboys who lost their comics.

Serious MMA practitioners don't spend their time disregarding TMA's.  Most have a background in TMA anyway.

Daniel


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## Hollywood1340 (Mar 1, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> MMA is basically one step away from being a bloodsport.



Compare how many fighters have died in MMA and how many have died in high school football. I think you've got the wrong "Bloodsport". And that's with full body armor and everything. Just another uneducated, classical, opinion. You're free to it, but please do some research first.


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## thetruth (Mar 1, 2009)

Hollywood1340 said:


> Compare how many fighters have died in MMA and how many have died in high school football. I think you've got the wrong "Bloodsport". And that's with full body armor and everything. Just another uneducated, classical, opinion. You're free to it, but please do some research first.



Exactly.  Since 1992 there have been 96 deaths in sanctioned boxing matches. In MMA there has been 1.   In Australia we hear about a jockey or 2 dying or being seriously injured in horse racing every year.   The bloodsport thing will pass. It's far too main stream now to be canned.  That would have happened in the early to mid 90's if ever.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Tez3 (Mar 1, 2009)

How disappointing it must be for people who think MMA is a blood sport to know entire fight nights of more than 10 fights go without a drop of blood being seen and no injuries. Get real people, it's competition fighting, life or death? prison fighting? I hardly think so!

Have you noticed no one posts up has TKD/karate/Judo done harm to MA, should MT be banned as it's violent,Judo because it has chokes ? No it's always MMA, the sport for bad people rofl.

Very few people outside the States actually like the UFC, to us it's full of cocky Yanks. One could post up equally well "have the Americans damaged MMA and MA with their antics". 

MMA is quietly going about it's business in the rest of the world yet people will still judge us by UFC and that frankly, stinks.
Groundwork....it exists in most karate styles, take a look at the katas. Iain Abernethy said that Funikoshi showed takedowns and grappling in karate yet people still deny it's existance.

I would suggest that tarring all MMA with the same brush is as pointless as saying all Chinese/Korean/Japanese martial arts are rubbish, you wouldn't do it so why do it to MMA? By all means point out instances where you have seen something you dislike but to say the thousands around the world who participate in MMA have damaged martial arts is ludicrous. Just look at U Tube and people chucking chi balls around, 5 year old black belts, people claiming to be USMC instructors etc etc to see that MMA is the least of martial arts problems. There's far more damaging things in martial arts than MMA.


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## thetruth (Mar 1, 2009)

DeLamar.J said:


> There is so much disrespect from MMA people trying to discredit real martial artists because they wont fight in MMA.



I don't think there is too much disrespect.  As was said earlier a lot of MMA guys came from TMA.   Given now that guys train specifically for MMA an get a good grounding in a number of art forms (BJJ, Standup/Clinch, Wrestling) wouldn't they be considered 'real' martial artists?? Generally most fighters are of a black belt standard in at least 1 area. 

Muay Thai is a martial art but those fighters aren't as well rounded as MMA guys.  I think that MMA guys could consider your quote disrespectful because clearly you don't consider them real martial artists.  

Just like any art someone can train in MMA and not fight but still be more than able to defend themselves.

Can you define what a 'real' martial artist is?? 

Just to make it clear I don't fight in MMA tournaments or consider myself an MMA fighter I just found this kind of hypocritical.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## jarrod (Mar 1, 2009)

i've met some really great people in MMA; i've also met some real thugs.  i've had the exact same experience with TMA people.  the only difference is that the thug element in MMA has the reinforcement of television.  

but if you look at many of the champion level mma fighters...cotoure, franklin, gsp, nog, cro-cop...they are all world-class sportsman.  most of the trash talk seems to come from people who haven't been around the game that long.  it's not much different from a new TMAist talking about how his instructor can kill a man with his little finger, or how a samurai sword could cut a european sword in half, or any of the other silly nonsense that we've all heard in the martial arts world.  myths & misconceptions aren't limited to mma.

jf


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## LawDog (Mar 2, 2009)

MMA, using an earlier term, is a total eclectic system. They do what they do and the M.A. do what they do.
The only one that can really hurt a style is the people within the style.


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## MJS (Mar 2, 2009)

Comparing MMA to a bloodsport....that mentality comes from the uneducated.  IIRC there was a certain Senator who at one point during the early days of the UFC, that was doing his best to ban the UFC.  Fortunately it didn't work. 

IMHO, the UFC has fighter safety in mind at their #1 concern.  Think about it...how many times have we seen a fight and we hear people say that it got stopped too early?  Again, the ref is there, watching and will and has stopped it when the fighter can't defend himself.  

Of course, I wonder if those same people think that boxing, football, baseball, hockey, etc. are bloodsports as well.  How many times do we see players getting carted off the playing area with injury?


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## Joab (Mar 2, 2009)

To be honest, I hate the UFC, MMA, and The Cage. They have enough rules to give the grapplers the advantage but enough license is left to really hurt somebody. I hate the attitude of the fighters I see in the commercials, with their tattoos and tough guy persona and arrogance, the opposite character traits that martial arts are supposed to instill. I am interested in martial arts for self defense and hope to never use any of it. Taking martial arts and turning them into a sport is the opposite of what I'm into. 

But they have the right to do what they do, I wouldn't ever vote to make it illegal, I have the right to not like it.


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## crushing (Mar 2, 2009)

MJS said:


> Comparing MMA to a bloodsport....that mentality comes from the uneducated. IIRC there was a certain Senator who at one point during the early days of the UFC, that was doing his best to ban the UFC. Fortunately it didn't work.
> 
> IMHO, the UFC has fighter safety in mind at their #1 concern. Think about it...how many times have we seen a fight and we hear people say that it got stopped too early? Again, the ref is there, watching and will and has stopped it when the fighter can't defend himself.
> 
> Of course, I wonder if those same people think that boxing, football, baseball, hockey, etc. are bloodsports as well. How many times do we see players getting carted off the playing area with injury?


 
While I didn't necessarily agree with said Senator, you have to admit that under political pressure and threats the sport did introduce and enforce stricter rules which lead to the sport being sanctioned by state athletic commisions which then lead to increased sponsorship dollars and dramatic _mainstream_ growth.

I don't think it a proper comparison to just ask how many times we see players getting carted off, we need to put in into perspective by looking at a percentage of participants.  And, the earlier claim that there was 1 reported death in MMA v. 96 deaths in boxing since 1992 doesn't provide enough information for a proper comparison of the two sports.


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## crushing (Mar 2, 2009)

Joab said:


> To be honest, I hate the UFC, MMA, and The Cage. They have enough rules to give the grapplers the advantage but enough license is left to really hurt somebody. I hate the attitude of the fighters I see in the commercials, with their tattoos and tough guy persona and arrogance, the opposite character traits that martial arts are supposed to instill. I am interested in martial arts for self defense and hope to never use any of it. Taking martial arts and turning them into a sport is the opposite of what I'm into.
> 
> But they have the right to do what they do, I wouldn't ever vote to make it illegal, I have the right to not like it.


 

There is some trash talking that leads up to a fight, that's part of the marketing and salesmanship that the advertisers and executives want.  But, at the end of the fight, more often than not, I see a mutual respect and genuine concern for the opponent's safety and welfare.


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## Joab (Mar 2, 2009)

crushing said:


> There is some trash talking that leads up to a fight, that's part of the marketing and salesmanship that the advertisers and executives want. But, at the end of the fight, more often than not, I see a mutual respect and genuine concern for the opponent's safety and welfare.


 
I'll take your word for it, I'll never watch a match, I hate even watchng the commercials.


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## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2009)

Joab said:


> To be honest, I hate the UFC, MMA, and The Cage. They have enough rules to give the grapplers the advantage but enough license is left to really hurt somebody. I hate the attitude of the fighters I see in the commercials, with their tattoos and tough guy persona and arrogance, the opposite character traits that martial arts are supposed to instill. I am interested in martial arts for self defense and hope to never use any of it. *Taking martial arts and turning them into a sport is the opposite of what I'm into. *
> 
> But they have the right to do what they do, I wouldn't ever vote to make it illegal, I have the right to not like it.


 

So you are also opposed to Olympic TKD and Judo, points and continous sparring competitions.
You are also judging MMA by one promotion, do you hate cars because you hate one manufacturer? Do you avoid books because you read one by one author and didn't like it? Saying you hate MMA because you've seen the UFC is incredibly closed minded. it's like saying you hate a country because you met a few obnoxious people from there but won't open you mind enough to see that not all people are the same.
Theres more rule sets around than the UFC you know.


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## Joab (Mar 2, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> So you are also opposed to Olympic TKD and Judo, points and continous sparring competitions.
> 
> Joab: No, I'm not opposed to Olympic tae kwon do or judo, although I've rarely watched it. It isn't shown on American tv too often. In the Olympics it is far safer, and the athletes are better behaved.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah, I'm pretty ignorant about the whole thing and will remain so, simply because I hate what I see in the commercials. That is my right, it is there right to act like a bunch of steroid abusing, obnoxious, junior high kids.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 2, 2009)

The UFC and MMA has replaced the WWE and wrestling. This is actually a good thing; the UFC and other MMA orgs at least offer legit competitions. But I see ads for MMA events in magazines and on the web where the participants are dressed up in costumes, one had a guy with a top hat and fangs, for crying out loud. I couldn't tell if they were actually wearing the stuff or if it was photoshoped in by the promoters. It just screemed WWF.And this, of course brings the same group of fans that the WWE caters to, but now the UFC is "tougher" so they have drifted to UFC and MMA. 

Once again, this is actually a good thing. Those fans are getting a much better product, and from what I've seen, its only the advertisements that have gone that rout. Once they're in the ring, they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. The fact that they act like athletes in wrestling and boxing shouldn't be a big shocker; they are athletes. 

They may be martial artists too, but in that venue, they are athletes. Trash talk and cocky bravado and colorful personalities draws the demographic of males from fourteen to twenty five that WWE draws. It isn't about zen and honor, but about ratings and marketing. Once again, that isn't a bash. Gotta have ratings to keep it on the air.

And even so, I still find MMA competitors much, much more palatable than WWE wrestlers. They are better behaved and the matchups do not guarantee an outcome. There isn't an accompanying soap opera and storyline. It's just good fighting. Appreciate it for what it is, don't try to make into something it isn't. 

Daniel


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## Twin Fist (Mar 2, 2009)

When there are as many MMA matches as there are boxing matches, thenthat will bea fiar comparison, untill then, it is not.



thetruth said:


> Exactly.  Since 1992 there have been 96 deaths in sanctioned boxing matches. In MMA there has been 1.   In Australia we hear about a jockey or 2 dying or being seriously injured in horse racing every year.   The bloodsport thing will pass. It's far too main stream now to be canned.  That would have happened in the early to mid 90's if ever.
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


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## Twin Fist (Mar 2, 2009)

Remember Slice's last fight? remember what the stand in had to say after the fight?

premade outcomes are only a LITTLE ways away.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> And even so, I still find MMA competitors much, much more palatable than WWE wrestlers. They are better behaved and the matchups do not guarantee an outcome. There isn't an accompanying soap opera and storyline. It's just good fighting. Appreciate it for what it is, don't try to make into something it isn't.
> 
> Daniel


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## Nolerama (Mar 2, 2009)

Joab said:


> Yeah, I'm pretty ignorant about the whole thing and will remain so, simply because I hate what I see in the commercials. That is my right, it is there right to act like a bunch of steroid abusing, obnoxious, junior high kids.



It's also your right to spend the rest of your life thinking within the box. I wonder how that works in your own MA training. Please lighten up! The MAs are supposed to be good for you, not a downer.

Personally, I've met the stereotypical jock in every sport I've played and every martial art I've trained in. It exists everywhere. But it doesn't stop me from practicing a MA mindset- one of seeing what works for your body type, and situation.

For some reason, in the MAs, everyone seems to hate whatever art is popular in the media; or at least place a negative stigma on it. I think it's the promoters of the art itself (maybe Hollywood practitioners that work on movie sets as action coordinators/consultants) that make a particular MA look teh d33dly.

Or the actors themselves. Which has done worse for the MA world: MMA, or Jean Claude Van Damme, who assumed a number of MA's in his movie career in pretty much the same plot line, every time.

It's the media, in general. Look at the heart of any MA gym/dojo/whatver and you'll see a positive group of people, doing great things for their body and minds. That's universal for the MAs.

Meatheads and egos are also universal to the MAs and sports in general.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 2, 2009)

Joab said:


> I'll take your word for it, I'll never watch a match, I hate even watchng the commercials.


If you won't watch it, don't post about it.  Honestly, you should give it a try.  Commercials are commercials.  I don't like them either, so I can understand why you're put off by them.  But those commercials are not nearly as offending as the conduct of some of the olympians.  As a taekwondoist, I was very disappointed by what I saw.  Not only were the matches pretty lousy, but there was a cloud of possible corruption surrounding the selection of the US team, the US team did not reflect traditional martial arts in any way, and the martial art got a literal fat lip, courtesy of the Cuban competitor, all topped off with a blessing from Castro.  

I'd rather watch MMA.

Truth be told, MMA isn't my thing either, but I have watched quite a few UFC fights and those competitors are not a bunch of meatheads.  If you have a good degree of martial arts experience and can follow what they're doing, it's hard not to enjoy it.

And honestly, they do go into the ring with respect towards one another.  I don't see temper tantrums in UFC matches, at least none of the ones I've watched.  

Just my twelve cents.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 2, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Remember Slice's last fight? remember what the stand in had to say after the fight?


 
No, I've actually never seen Slice fight.  I generally wind up watching the regular matches with friends at Hard Times Cafe once in a while, so I don't often see the big names.  I don't have time to watch it very often these days.   



Twin Fist said:


> premade outcomes are only a LITTLE ways away.


 
Perhaps, but until it becomes a reality, I can only call it as I currently see it.  It would be a pity if things went down that road, but once big money is a factor, integrity becomes increasingly hard to maintain.

Daniel


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## Steve (Mar 2, 2009)

Joab said:


> To be honest, I hate the UFC, MMA, and The Cage. They have enough rules to give the grapplers the advantage but enough license is left to really hurt somebody. I hate the attitude of the fighters I see in the commercials, with their tattoos and tough guy persona and arrogance, the opposite character traits that martial arts are supposed to instill. I am interested in martial arts for self defense and hope to never use any of it. Taking martial arts and turning them into a sport is the opposite of what I'm into.
> 
> But they have the right to do what they do, I wouldn't ever vote to make it illegal, I have the right to not like it.


Two things, first, the rules actually favor strikers more than the other way around.  I won't bore you with details, but if you're interested I'll go into it a little more.

Second, I agree that the tattoos and tough guy stuff is irritating and unecessary.  I mentioned this in my initial response to the thread, and believe it's more to do with the marketing and the culture being promoted than the bulk of those who train in the different disciplines (muay thai, bjj, etc).  

But "martial arts are supposed to instill" what again?  I couldn't disagree more with the idea that martial arts are "supposed" to do anything more than make a person better at what is being taught.  I am distrustful of any school that purports to teach anything above that.  The pursuit of excellence and purity in ANY action will result in spiritual growth.  Gardening extremely well, or pursuing excellence in gardening, will result in spiritual fulfillment and growth.  But you wouldn't say that gardening SHOULD or is SUPPOSED to do anything other than produce flowers or plants that grow is just wackiness, in my opinion.


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## Steve (Mar 2, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> When there are as many MMA matches as there are boxing matches, thenthat will bea fiar comparison, untill then, it is not.


Aren't there more sanctioned MMA matches than boxing matches each year?  Certainly plenty to provide a legitimate comparison. 

I think that long term, we're going to see concussion statistics similar to NFL football players.  Taking explosive blows to the noggin just CAN'T be good for you in the long term.  But I believe that there is plenty of evidence to suggest from both the NFL and from MMA that single blows to the head and multiple concussions over a lifetime are, while not good, are nothing like the damage done by the repeated blows suffered in boxing.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 2, 2009)

Wow, a lot of interesting replies are here.

Another thing I would like to add is that MMA has made people more aware of the dangers and realism of ground fighting. I know that before I met a brazillian jui jitsuist I had never thought more about ground fighting than the classic ground and pound manuever, so that opened my mind a bit.

MMA has shown that it is important to be able to fight from different positions, but so many people seem to be working on being a jack of all trades and a master of none.

I think all warriors should be competant in all aspects of fighting, but I'd really like to see more mastery in the world of MA. There are so few left.


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## searcher (Mar 2, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Wow, a lot of interesting replies are here.
> 
> Another thing I would like to add is that MMA has made people more aware of the dangers and realism of ground fighting. I know that before I met a brazillian jui jitsuist I had never thought more about ground fighting than the classic ground and pound manuever, so that opened my mind a bit.
> 
> ...


 

Now I will say that Himura makes a valid point here on the use of ground fighting.    Before the early 90's, I always felt I had a great advantage over most people when I fought on the street, because I was already training in submission techniques.    After everyone started seeing how helpful they were in a fight, loads of people jumped on the bandwagon.    Or they learned to avoid going to the ground.   I guess it is a harmful thing for those of us that were already use to being  on the ground twisting people up.    For everyoen else it has made them look to additional training.


A point for you all to ponder, did the rise in MMA popularity lead to more "underground" fights?    I keep hearing rumors of these fights and I know some are happening, but did it increase them?   Not that they are more orless organized then they were.   Something to think about.    Think Kimbo Slice and where he came from.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 2, 2009)

Joab said:


> To be honest, I hate the UFC, MMA, and The Cage. They have enough rules to give the grapplers the advantage



Nope, if anything the rules favour strikers.  Standups, rounds, gloves to protect the hands, etc.  Even the rules around striking are more restrictive on the  ground, where a grappler has the advantage with them.




> I am interested in martial arts for self defense and hope to never use any of it. Taking martial arts and turning them into a sport is the opposite of what I'm into.



Well, that's nice for you.  But historically its not much of a match with what martial arts have been about for a long time.  Competitions where common in pretty much all the Asian, western and other regions martial arts pretty much sincse they became organized in any way.



Joab said:


> I'll take your word for it, I'll never watch a match, I hate even watchng the commercials.



So this is a informed opinion you have of it then?


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## Steve (Mar 2, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> And honestly, they do go into the ring with respect towards one another. I don't see temper tantrums in UFC matches, at least none of the ones I've watched.
> 
> Just my twelve cents.
> 
> Daniel


It's there, and I cringe when I see it.  Honestly, the detractors have a lot of valid ammunition.  MMA is becoming progressively more infantile and the marketing is continuously ratcheting up the bloodthirsty iconography.


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## Steve (Mar 2, 2009)

searcher said:


> A point for you all to ponder, did the rise in MMA popularity lead to more "underground" fights? I keep hearing rumors of these fights and I know some are happening, but did it increase them? Not that they are more orless organized then they were. Something to think about. Think Kimbo Slice and where he came from.


 I think that YouTube has had more of an impact on this than MMA.  If anything, giving people who want to fight a legitimate, sanctioned venue in which to fight has reduced the need for underground fighting.  YouTube, on the other hand, gives these people undue notoriety and a degree of infamy.


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## MJS (Mar 2, 2009)

crushing said:


> While I didn't necessarily agree with said Senator, you have to admit that under political pressure and threats the sport did introduce and enforce stricter rules which lead to the sport being sanctioned by state athletic commisions which then lead to increased sponsorship dollars and dramatic _mainstream_ growth.


 
Oh of course.  There are huge differences between now and then.  I think that the changes are a plus. 



> I don't think it a proper comparison to just ask how many times we see players getting carted off, we need to put in into perspective by looking at a percentage of participants. And, the earlier claim that there was 1 reported death in MMA v. 96 deaths in boxing since 1992 doesn't provide enough information for a proper comparison of the two sports.


 
While this may be true, there're some (and not necessarily anyone on this forum) who make it seem as if its a brutal event, with no concern for the well being of the fighters.  That is simply not true, and again, the uneducated opinion of certain people who know nothing about martial arts or mma.


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## LordOfWu (Mar 2, 2009)

I'm just curious about a theme I saw in a number of the posts...why do so many correlate tattoos with thugs?  I have tattoos, and I train with people who not only have tattoos but are professional tattoo artists, with the majority of thier body covered...and in my opinion it doesn't make them any more or less respectful of the arts they study than people with no tattoos.

I also study with MMA guys (I train in BJJ) who are much more respectful of various styles of TMA because they have pulled their whole style and substance from various different TMAs.  They are more likely to get excited about a new technique or movement than anyone I've ever trained more traditional martial arts with.

I am a fan of MMA, I have no interest in competing, but I have respect for people who will train that hard to be the best in anything they do.  And in my experience, people who train that hard, respect others who do the same.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 2, 2009)

LordOfWu said:


> I'm just curious about a theme I saw in a number of the posts...why do so many correlate tattoos with thugs? I have tattoos, and I train with people who not only have tattoos but are professional tattoo artists, with the majority of thier body covered...and in my opinion it doesn't make them any more or less respectful of the arts they study than people with no tattoos.


 

I think this is because many people view tatoos as going against the norm, and the more tatoos one has the more against the norm he is. People then view non-norm behavior as deliquent and view deliquent behavior as "thuggish" As tatoos are common in gang culture some people will look a t a person getting a tatoo as embracing a particular "thug" life style, whether or not that's the actual reason they're doing it.

That's my sociological explaination anyway.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 2, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> It's there, and I cringe when I see it. Honestly, the detractors have a lot of valid ammunition. MMA is becoming progressively more infantile and the marketing is continuously ratcheting up the bloodthirsty iconography.


I appreciate the candor.  

I haven't seen a match since last summer.  My life went nuts since then and as a general rule, I don't watch much television if at all avoidable.   

Daniel


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## suicide (Mar 2, 2009)

:angel: %-} :jediduel: :dalek:


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## CoryKS (Mar 2, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I think this is because many people view tatoos as going against the norm, and the more tatoos one has the more against the norm he is. People then view non-norm behavior as deliquent and view deliquent behavior as "thuggish" As tatoos are common in gang culture some people will look a t a person getting a tatoo as embracing a particular "thug" life style, whether or not that's the actual reason they're doing it.
> 
> That's my sociological explaination anyway.


 
Or, as Gary Larson put it, it's "Nature's way of saying, 'Don't Touch'"


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## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2009)

Joab said:


> Yeah, I'm pretty ignorant about the whole thing and will remain so, simply because I hate what I see in the commercials. That is my right, it is there right to act like a bunch of steroid abusing, obnoxious, junior high kids.


 
It is not your right however to brand me as the same as the Americans you see in your commercials. You can see why I take offense at your post, I don't brand you as anything, I remains respectful towards your art and if theres an idiot in your art I don't blame you for them.


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## Steve (Mar 2, 2009)

LordOfWu said:


> I'm just curious about a theme I saw in a number of the posts...why do so many correlate tattoos with thugs? I have tattoos, and I train with people who not only have tattoos but are professional tattoo artists, with the majority of thier body covered...and in my opinion it doesn't make them any more or less respectful of the arts they study than people with no tattoos.
> 
> I also study with MMA guys (I train in BJJ) who are much more respectful of various styles of TMA because they have pulled their whole style and substance from various different TMAs. They are more likely to get excited about a new technique or movement than anyone I've ever trained more traditional martial arts with.
> 
> I am a fan of MMA, I have no interest in competing, but I have respect for people who will train that hard to be the best in anything they do. And in my experience, people who train that hard, respect others who do the same.


Terrific point.  I have tattoos as well and will probably get at least one more before I'm done.  My wife has one, too.  We're not thugs.


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## Joab (Mar 2, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> It is not your right however to brand me as the same as the Americans you see in your commercials. You can see why I take offense at your post, I don't brand you as anything, I remains respectful towards your art and if theres an idiot in your art I don't blame you for them.


 
I was referring to what I see in the commercials, no offense to you intended. The post was how has MMA impacted the image of martial arts? The commercials are all a lot of people see, and I find them very offensive! I hate UFC, MMA, The Cage, and I always will!


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## Steve (Mar 2, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I think this is because many people view tatoos as going against the norm, and the more tatoos one has the more against the norm he is. People then view non-norm behavior as deliquent and view deliquent behavior as "thuggish" As tatoos are common in gang culture some people will look a t a person getting a tatoo as embracing a particular "thug" life style, whether or not that's the actual reason they're doing it.
> 
> That's my sociological explaination anyway.


 Well, anthropologically speaking, society will either incorporate or eliminate "deviant" behavior.  Skirts above the knee were scandalous at one time, but barely 20 years later mini skirts were awesome... I mean common.  Guys in earrings...  deviant... in the 70's, okay if it was left ear only in the 80's... common in either or both ears multiple times by the middle 90's.  Mohawks... same thing.  Dyed hair... Body piercings...  deviant in the 90's but becoming common now and will likely be no big deal in 10 years.  

Tattoos are the same thing.  It's society's defense mechanism as a large organism.  If you can't force a group to conform, incorporate the group.


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## Nolerama (Mar 2, 2009)

Joab said:


> I was referring to what I see in the commercials, no offense to you intended. The post was how has MMA impacted the image of martial arts? The commercials are all a lot of people see, and I find them very offensive! I hate UFC, MMA, The Cage, and I always will!



We get it... Take a deep breath... Please calm down.

Just remember that most MMA gyms will offer you a really athletic, technica, and functionall work out, if you just open your mind to it. Generally speaking, we don't fall within your stereotype of an MMA practitioner. Like most MAists, we're a fairly intelligent bunch, willing to play the MA game. MMA just happens to be the competition medium in which we play.

Another thing, please take into account that many people here consider MMA their current "style." We don't intend to insult you openly but we do exist, and exist on this forum. You're going to have to deal with that, as well as the apparent, inherent insulting nature that we pose to you.

Sorry, dude.

Generally speaking we don't go around and say that _____ MA sucks (because they don't suck), so please reserve your hatred of MMA for the privacy of your own home and away from this forum.

Respectfully.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 2, 2009)

Joab said:


> I was referring to what I see in the commercials, no offense to you intended. The post was how has MMA impacted the image of martial arts? The commercials are all a lot of people see, and I find them very offensive! I hate UFC, MMA, The Cage, and I always will!


I think that we need to keep in mind that saying 'mma' is like saying 'karate.' MMA is both a skill set and mixed training in various martial disciplines. The UFC, and similar organizations, are sports sanctioning bodies.

I don't have any problem with wrestling, but I really do not like the WWE or WCW. Both involve wrestling, but neither fully encompass wrestling.

I'm not sure if there is an organization or program called, "MMA", so perhaps you were refering to an org in you post.

Either way, I felt that the distinction should be made. 

Also, the subject of tatoos came up (not sure of the poster).  Some of the most upstanding and honorable people that I know have tatoos. The most horrible excuses for human beings that I have known personally have been inkless. 

Personally, I am inkless. But I do not consider the presence of tatoos to be indicative of anything other than that the wearer likes tatoos.

Daniel


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## Glycerine0160 (Mar 2, 2009)

Through my experience of this, this is like arguing religion. That is why in anything I explain/say, I admit I am very new to the martial arts world and will never self righteously conceit. I would rather it be a discussion and I'm sorry I should probably be quoting, but call me neglectful. But I just want to say, I concur with the general conception that UFC has brought an overwhelming interest martial arts world but has created a minority of real ignorance.


1.) The idea of Wing Chun not being applicable in the UFC because one argument is the rules hurt its delivery and application. The counter argument is a what I would consider the universal knock on Wing Chun saying that it's not applicable in a fight. I say this because, one user posted "back in the times of the ruleless UFC, these fighters still lost" Well if the ruleless UFC was the same as a real life situation, then one might conclude wing chun isn't a supportive fighting style. Here is my quarrel and as I said before, I want to be sure I am discussing, with no intentions of insulting. 
   I can see where a person might say, "all that wing chun trapping" is inefficient and not practical in the real sense. While I would say that might be a valid point, that does not mean that a real skilled practitioner of wing chun could not master trapping so flawlessly that he turns that inefficiency to the opposite. 
I only saw clips of the old UFC, and none of it seemed like what I would imagine. It actually looked quite simliar to today's UFC with just things a little more let go. Like flying knees to the head. What I can grasp is if flying knees were an efficient method to use in the old UFC, how would a chop to the neck not be? or a straight kick to the knee joint? I don't know the explanation to it, but simply sufficing with "arts like wing chun just arn't as useful in the UFC" seems overly presumptious.
No matter how much I try, I cannot fathom how this guy could not severely destory people in the old UFC.




I must be honest, I'm not sure how Tommy is viewed by outsiders of wing chun, but this is the kind of guy I meant when I said, to the experts, trapping is very efficient.
(although, most people could never master trapping anywhere near this extent.)

2.) Someone in the last page with others agreeing made the statement the rules are more supportive for striking. I always felt the exact opposite. If anyone tried to grapple me, especially if they were bigger, I'd strike every vulnerable organ or body part available. The lack of this means the person who is larger is going to to have the advantage. (that is not to override the most critical feature, technique.) 

3.) The other quesiton that remains for me is that you don't see any of these vicious grapplers like you would see of a silat art or any of the chinese arts. I know silat puts extreme emphasis on structure. Weaken a individual's structure; this omits their size. 


For me, like I said, this is like arguing religion. The "only" reason I went here is all of you have knowledge on martial arts, not just on UFC. The people I used to debate this with knew nothing but UFC. You can see the error there and why I stopped discussing it. I've said it a bunch of times but I want to bring it out again so that no one thinks I'm coming off as complacent, I'm a complete novice to the martial arts world but I think and read as much as I can about this stuff as I can. But for me, there is too much ambiguity in this debate of UFC vs martial arts. 
Feel free to critisize anything I am ignorant on. But be gentle. haha.


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## Steve (Mar 2, 2009)

Glycerine0160 said:


> I can see where a person might say, "all that wing chun trapping" is inefficient and not practical in the real sense. While I would say that might be a valid point, that does not mean that a real skilled practitioner of wing chun could not master trapping so flawlessly that he turns that inefficiency to the opposite.


Beside the point, really, but if something requires mastery to be of practical use, it's a bit oxymoronic.  I can see both sides, but personally, I subscribe to the philosophy that there should be no advanced or basic techniques.  The best techniques are the basic techniques done very, very well.  In BJJ, it's said that this is the biggest difference between a black belt and a blue belt. The technique is the same.  





> I only saw clips of the old UFC, and none of it seemed like what I would imagine. It actually looked quite simliar to today's UFC with just things a little more let go. Like flying knees to the head. What I can grasp is if flying knees were an efficient method to use in the old UFC, how would a chop to the neck not be? or a straight kick to the knee joint? I don't know the explanation to it, but simply sufficing with "arts like wing chun just arn't as useful in the UFC" seems overly presumptious.


Agreed, and I'm not sure anyone's said this in this thread (although there are no doubt other threads where this has been asserted).  A few corrections, though.  Flying knees are still legal.  Straight kicks to the knee joint are also legal.  Blows to the neck or back of the head are not.  





> No matter how much I try, I cannot fathom how this guy could not severely destory people in the old UFC.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He may or may not do well in the UFC.  Hard to say.  Lyoto Machida has done very well with traditional Shotokan as a base art.  Cung Le has done well with San Shou.  It could happen.  I'd love to see it.  





> 2.) Someone in the last page with others agreeing made the statement the rules are more supportive for striking. I always felt the exact opposite.


That was me, and it's very true.  MMA is a sport, and like all sports, the rules favor action.  Striking is action.  Grappling is often NOT action.  Again, common MMA rules and UFC specific rules tends to be death to a thread, but we can get into why they lean toward strikers if anyone is really interested.  





> If anyone tried to grapple me, especially if they were bigger, I'd strike every vulnerable organ or body part available. The lack of this means the person who is larger is going to to have the advantage. (that is not to override the most critical feature, technique.)


You lost me.  I'm not sure what you mean.  What does this have to do with your point that the rules favor grapplers?  





> 3.) The other quesiton that remains for me is that you don't see any of these vicious grapplers like you would see of a silat art or any of the chinese arts. I know silat puts extreme emphasis on structure. Weaken a individual's structure; this omits their size.


Once again, I'm not seeing your point, but would like to.  Can you explain what you mean by this?  Perhaps some examples of "vicious" martial artists from other styles, or perhaps a better idea of what you're looking for in a "vicious grappler."  

Damian Maia is currently tearing up the UFC.  He's a pure grappler, to the point that he will gladly pull half guard on someone.  I've never seen that before.  He said in his post fight interview a few weeks back something to the effect that he likes to beat people and finish the fight without hurting them.   That's vicious and so completely in the spirit of grappling.


----------



## Andrew Green (Mar 2, 2009)

Glycerine0160 said:


> 1.) The idea of Wing Chun not being applicable in the UFC because one argument is the rules hurt its delivery and application. The counter argument is a what I would consider the universal knock on Wing Chun saying that it's not applicable in a fight. I say this because, one user posted "back in the times of the ruleless UFC, these fighters still lost" Well if the ruleless UFC was the same as a real life situation, then one might conclude wing chun isn't a supportive fighting style. Here is my quarrel and as I said before, I want to be sure I am discussing, with no intentions of insulting.



If by "real life situation" you mean a one-on-one fight in a contained environment that everyone knows about in advance, trains and prepares for knowing the time, place and enivornment and does so on a stage in front of spectators, then yes. 

But I'd also say your view of "real life situation" is somewhat skewed...  of course I don't think you actually mean that.




> I only saw clips of the old UFC, and none of it seemed like what I would imagine. It actually looked quite simliar to today's UFC with just things a little more let go. Like flying knees to the head. What I can grasp is if flying knees were an efficient method to use in the old UFC, how would a chop to the neck not be? or a straight kick to the knee joint? I don't know the explanation to it, but simply sufficing with "arts like wing chun just arn't as useful in the UFC" seems overly presumptious.



Flying knees are still allowed, and used.  chops to the neck... well, punches land to the neck lots, sometimes resulting in KO.  Back of the head is not allowed for safety reasons though.

straight kick to the knee is not as effective as it sounds, at least not in that environment.  Professional fighters are well trained and don't stand straight legged.




> No matter how much I try, I cannot fathom how this guy could not severely destory people in the old UFC.



Ok, but you also admit to not really understanding the sport and how it works.  That stuff, while great for some things isn't as great for other things.  In a MMA fight, against a trained fighter it's not likely to work




> 2.) Someone in the last page with others agreeing made the statement the rules are more supportive for striking. I always felt the exact opposite. If anyone tried to grapple me, especially if they were bigger, I'd strike every vulnerable organ or body part available. The lack of this means the person who is larger is going to to have the advantage. (that is not to override the most critical feature, technique.)



When in a grappling situation, chances are the superior grappler will have the best control over the situation, and the best opportunities to land those nasty strikes.

Not to mention every 5 minutes fighters are stood up and separated.  If things are going slow on the ground they are separated and stood up, but if the striking is going slow they are never put on the ground.  Fighters wrap hands and where gloves to protect their hands allowing more power on strikes without having to worry about hand injury as much.


===


I would suggest not looking at one-on-one fighting as the sole goal behind all martial arts, it isn't and shouldn't be.  

Not even the obvious self-defence goal either.  Things like health and cultural aspects are a big part of some styles.  

Take a simple thing like posture and compare a MMA stylist to a kung fu stylist.  Which is better?  You need a goal, the MMA fighter has better posture for MMA fighting, but how about ergonomic related issues?


----------



## suicide (Mar 2, 2009)

:angel:


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## Hagakure (Mar 2, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> How disappointing it must be for people who think MMA is a blood sport to know entire fight nights of more than 10 fights go without a drop of blood being seen and no injuries. Get real people, it's competition fighting, life or death? prison fighting? I hardly think so!
> 
> Have you noticed no one posts up has TKD/karate/Judo done harm to MA, should MT be banned as it's violent,Judo because it has chokes ? No it's always MMA, the sport for bad people rofl.
> 
> ...



Don't you knock chi-balls, just because you MMA guys can't do it/use it in the ring, doesn't mean it can't be done... 

Ego. A need to hang on to "our" art, and our innate, unquenchable desire to argue with idiots on the internet be they of from a TMA or MMA background. I really, really try to walk away from it, but there have been instances on U Tube where I've encountered the MMA fan boys slagging off the WC vids on there, and I've been unable to resist. However, I don't take that as indicative of all MMA guys. 

What I think it's done is to highlight the need to pressure test your art. Perhaps to consider other areas of training. Also, what I think the earlier UFC bouts picked up on were the dedication to training. The key difference I don't think is the art, it's the person, and their ability/fitness. You get some amateur TMA'ist and put him in the ring/octagon against a professional athlete who trains TMA and in a full contact bout you can pretty much tell who to bet your house on. Now, increase that TMA guys repetoire, so he does/knows more tricks than the other guy and you have a winning combo.


----------



## Gordon Nore (Mar 2, 2009)

searcher said:


> If any aprt of MMA has done damage to te MA, it is the show Ultimate Fighter.   Most, not all, of the guys on the show end up making fools of themselves and in turn, give the MA a bad name.    Outside of that, I don't see it as having done any major damage.



I tend to agree. It's a conundrum of Reality TV. What is bad for the business is good for the show, same as The Apprentice. So on The Ultimate Fighter (reality show), competitors aren't allowed to bring reading material into the house 'because it distracts them from the competition' (BS); whereas, getting shart-faced, picking fights, talking trash, and destroying property keeps everyone on their game. 

No other major sport would actively endorse having their up-and-comers presented in this light. Look at the uproars over Michael Phelps or Ross Rebagliati. When pro athletes pull this crap, the media hang them out to dry, and their bosses and handlers go into damage control mode.

On the other hand, if UFC put out a show where athletes ate their Wheaties and did nothing but train and sleep, they wouldn't have the ratings they do.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Mar 2, 2009)

searcher said:


> Now I will say that Himura makes a valid point here on the use of ground fighting.    Before the early 90's, I always felt I had a great advantage over most people when I fought on the street, because I was already training in submission techniques.    After everyone started seeing how helpful they were in a fight, loads of people jumped on the bandwagon.    Or they learned to avoid going to the ground.   I guess it is a harmful thing for those of us that were already use to being  on the ground twisting people up.    For everyoen else it has made them look to additional training.
> 
> 
> A point for you all to ponder, did the rise in MMA popularity lead to more "underground" fights?    I keep hearing rumors of these fights and I know some are happening, but did it increase them?   Not that they are more orless organized then they were.   Something to think about.    Think Kimbo Slice and where he came from.




Searcher,

I have a couple of questions to better understand. 

In the 80's, the fights I was in or saw with people going to ground always ended up with people kicking or jumping in to get involved. One time, and I repeat one time, two wrestlers asked everyone not to get involved and the collided and then went to the ground. One guy did pin the other, but no real strikes. 

I know I had my my ribs kicked while being on the ground with multiple others. Note; I did not want to be there and was doing what I could to disengage and get back up, but you can end up there. So, knowing some ground work to be able to move and to control enough to get up is good. But for self defense are you saying that you could submit people in a street fight? 


I understand the Underground fights were always one on one, and if this is the case then ok, I was just looking for some more information. 


Thanks


----------



## TigerCraneGuy (Mar 2, 2009)

Oh no, not again.

The whole MMA = bad debate.

Said it before and I'll say it again. Most of the best MMA fighters have had strong TMA backgrounds. Lyoto Machida, for example, has already been mentioned.

I don't see anything wrong with MMA as an art. On the contrary, I enjoy its lively dynamic character and respect players like Couture, Cung Le, Machida, and Silva. I mean, it's got its share of poor representatives (Tank Abbot anyone?) but then which art doesn't?

Also, training in Kenpo 5.0, our methodology is actually very similar. (Check out the 'What We Do' vid on Youtube)

Enough MMA and TMA bashing. Leave that for the know-nothing punks who don't actually train and have no idea about true MA'ists.

Regards,
TCG


----------



## Rich Parsons (Mar 2, 2009)

TigerCraneGuy said:


> Oh no, not again.
> 
> The whole MMA = bad debate.
> 
> ...



Is this in response to my post or the thread in general? 

I did not think I said MMA = Bad.


----------



## Steve (Mar 2, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> I tend to agree. It's a conundrum of Reality TV. What is bad for the business is good for the show, same as The Apprentice. So on The Ultimate Fighter (reality show), competitors aren't allowed to bring reading material into the house 'because it distracts them from the competition' (BS); whereas, getting shart-faced, picking fights, talking trash, and destroying property keeps everyone on their game.
> 
> No other major sport would actively endorse having their up-and-comers presented in this light. Look at the uproars over Michael Phelps or Ross Rebagliati. When pro athletes pull this crap, the media hang them out to dry, and their bosses and handlers go into damage control mode.
> 
> On the other hand, if UFC put out a show where athletes ate their Wheaties and did nothing but train and sleep, they wouldn't have the ratings they do.


This is a great article about ways to improve TUF on every level AND create an interesting show.  If only the producers could read.


----------



## Glycerine0160 (Mar 2, 2009)

Alright, many of the points were well taken. But I want to clarify a few things. Once again, please, in discussion format. I am really not up for insulting or being insulted.


It was said a straight kick to the knee would not be as effective in the UFC. Would that be because it could be avoided or the actual hit would be rendered ineffective? If the latter, the knee is a joint. You cannot train to take kicks to the knees. Maybe to an miniscule extent. Once again, if I'm mislead, please inform me. But to continue on with these strikes, there is a take down we use where when in close range, you make your hand flat, and you push up on the ridge of the nose which will hurt badly enough they will fall down (especially if you do it in a striking motion). Like I said, there are probably a million techniques from arts all over. I imagine they are disallowed because in some way they break the rules.

I see the difference in what we interpreted as the rules favor. You mean literally as points to win the fight, I'm sure that's correct. I mean take for example a guy who is smaller. For a guy who is smaller to win a grappling range fight, he would need to weaken the structure of the larger fighter and make use of any vital hitting points. (kidneys, testacles, eyes, ears)
The UFC has to disallow these strikes because it wouldn't be much of a fight, it would be a massacer. That is why I meant literally, smaller fighters cannot beat bigger fighters in grappling range with such rules. 

That is what I meant by a vicious silat fighter. (I'm sure many other arts have vicious grapplers too.)




Focusing in on his striking pattern when the fighter is down.


I agree with wing chun trapping part. Although, I think "some" trapping is very useful. But you're right, there is a definitely a limit otherwise you would have to master it making it unpractical. 


Once again, any disagreement is completely welcome.


----------



## TigerCraneGuy (Mar 2, 2009)

Rich Parsons said:


> Is this in response to my post or the thread in general?
> 
> I did not think I said MMA = Bad.


 
No, not to your post. Not at all.

Just the thread in general.

Truth be told, I usually enjoy your posts and look forward to reading them.

Regards,
TCG


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## mook jong man (Mar 2, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Terrific point. I have tattoos as well and will probably get at least one more before I'm done. My wife has one, too. We're not thugs.


 
It depends on what culture you are from as well , my wife is Japanese and said they tend to associate tattoos with people that are in the Yakuza. I don't have tattoos , but I have nothing against people who get them . What they do with their bodies is entirely their decision , but their are some people who get them for some sort of percieved intimidation value .

 Think of it this way if you see a man covered in tattoos , some people will be intimidated by that and start making all sorts of connections in their head like , he's been in prison , he's a bikie , he's a dangerous tough guy . But now you dress that same man in a suit and he is a lot less intimidating in some peoples minds , even though it is the same bloke .

 I think these perceptions will break down in the future as tattoos become more popular , It is unfair how people are judged like that , but thats the way it is unfortunately .

 In my opinion the most dangerous people I have ever met were the ones who looked absolutely normal and extremely average , the ones that walk down the street and you would not even take a second look at them .


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## LordOfWu (Mar 2, 2009)

Glycerine0160 said:


> It was said a straight kick to the knee would not be as effective in the UFC. Would that be because it could be avoided or the actual hit would be rendered ineffective? If the latter, the knee is a joint. You cannot train to take kicks to the knees. Maybe to an miniscule extent. Once again, if I'm mislead, please inform me.



In my very humble opinion, it's not a matter of a strike rendered ineffective, but one of an opponent being prepared and avoiding the strike or the posture that support the strike.



Glycerine0160 said:


> But to continue on with these strikes, there is a take down we use where when in close range, you make your hand flat, and you push up on the ridge of the nose which will hurt badly enough they will fall down (especially if you do it in a striking motion). Like I said, there are probably a million techniques from arts all over. I imagine they are disallowed because in some way they break the rules.



I don't know about it being disallowed, but I've never heard of a rule against it.  I think the biggest difference is in a) dealing with a trained athlete who is going to be more willing to accept pain and continue on, and b) the goal (at least from a grappling perspective) is not to just make them fall down but take them down in a position where you have more effective control.



Glycerine0160 said:


> I see the difference in what we interpreted as the rules favor. You mean literally as points to win the fight, I'm sure that's correct. I mean take for example a guy who is smaller. For a guy who is smaller to win a grappling range fight, he would need to weaken the structure of the larger fighter and make use of any vital hitting points. (kidneys, testacles, eyes, ears)
> The UFC has to disallow these strikes because it wouldn't be much of a fight, it would be a massacer. That is why I meant literally, smaller fighters cannot beat bigger fighters in grappling range with such rules.
> 
> That is what I meant by a vicious silat fighter. (I'm sure many other arts have vicious grapplers too.)
> ...



I would only point out that those strikes aren't allowed because this is a sport and not life/death.  However, I will say that there are a number of very small in stature grapplers who do quite well against larger opponents, not through striking sensitive areas, but through leverage and technique...some of that technique is in avoiding damage or getting hurt.  



Glycerine0160 said:


> I agree with wing chun trapping part. Although, I think "some" trapping is very useful. But you're right, there is a definitely a limit otherwise you would have to master it making it unpractical.
> 
> 
> Once again, any disagreement is completely welcome.



Please don't see this as a disagreement, but an open discussion between people who share a passion of martial arts, whether traditional or modern.


----------



## Steve (Mar 2, 2009)

Glycerine0160 said:


> Alright, many of the points were well taken. But I want to clarify a few things. Once again, please, in discussion format. I am really not up for insulting or being insulted.


Okay, dude.  You really need to relax.  





> It was said a straight kick to the knee would not be as effective in the UFC. Would that be because it could be avoided or the actual hit would be rendered ineffective? If the latter, the knee is a joint. You cannot train to take kicks to the knees. Maybe to an miniscule extent. Once again, if I'm mislead, please inform me.


Lateral blows to the knee can and do cause serious injury, but straight kicks to the knee are pretty easy to defend if you don't lock out the joint.  The elbow is the same way.  When locked out, the joint is very weak, but if bent, even a little, it would take a lot more than an incidental blow to break it. 





> I see the difference in what we interpreted as the rules favor. You mean literally as points to win the fight, I'm sure that's correct. I mean take for example a guy who is smaller. For a guy who is smaller to win a grappling range fight, he would need to weaken the structure of the larger fighter and make use of any vital hitting points. (kidneys, testacles, eyes, ears)


Two things.  First, there are weight classes.  

Outside of MMA competitions, a smaller grappler would have to rely on leverage, superior technique and perhaps athleticism or speed, or conditioning.  





> The UFC has to disallow these strikes because it wouldn't be much of a fight, it would be a massacer. That is why I meant literally, smaller fighters cannot beat bigger fighters in grappling range with such rules.


Clearly, you have little experience with grappling.  I train with a guy who is 135 lbs soaking wet who routinely kicks my 185 lbs ***.  


> That is what I meant by a vicious silat fighter. (I'm sure many other arts have vicious grapplers too.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay.  I still don't get it.  I watched the video and wish I hadn't.


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## Glycerine0160 (Mar 2, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Okay, dude.  You really need to relax.  Lateral blows to the knee can and do cause serious injury, but straight kicks to the knee are pretty easy to defend if you don't lock out the joint.  The elbow is the same way.  When locked out, the joint is very weak, but if bent, even a little, it would take a lot more than an incidental blow to break it. Two things.  First, there are weight classes.
> 
> Outside of MMA competitions, a smaller grappler would have to rely on leverage, superior technique and perhaps athleticism or speed, or conditioning.  Clearly, you have little experience with grappling.  I train with a guy who is 135 lbs soaking wet who routinely kicks my 185 lbs ***.
> Okay.  I still don't get it.  I watched the video and wish I hadn't.




Trust me, I'm relaxed. Actually, I think I was attempting to prevent any posters from diminishing my relaxation ATM. 

I will take what you said about the knee into consideration. Bruce said a kick to the knee is very effective. I will take what you said and discuss and research it to be certain you are right.

I will admit, I have limited experience in grappling. That is actually a consideration I should look forward to.

The point of the video is to say in a real life situation without any rules, that is how I would choose to act. It's quicker, less effort, and very deadly. hahahah, but your dry criticism of the video was a good laugh.


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## mook jong man (Mar 2, 2009)

Why does the kick have to be directed at the knee , a low heel kick can be very effective when directed to the shin .

The knee does not have to be broken to cause an effect , the pain from a low heel kick to the shin can be quite debilitating , like banging your shin into a coffee table.

 This can cause quite a distraction and can  be the pathway to a knock out punch , as for avoiding it , it is possible if the Wing Chun practitioner is from a lineage where there is one leg forward , because you only have to really worry about the forward leg .

 But if they are from the both feet equal lineage then you will have two legs to worry about , that both have equal opportunity to kick you and will strike with absolutely no warning at all.


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## Carol (Mar 2, 2009)

Its...a different point and purpose....I'm going to try to sidestep any discussion about Mr. Gartin himself, but the idea behind the battlefield applications of Silat are a series of motions that result in death to the attacker whether or not one has their blade.  The techniques are practiced slow because...messing around with another person's neck is not something that should be done at full speed.  The motions are smooth, dance is how how the Indonesians tried to keep their arts secret from multiple invaders....and the "competitive" side to Silat is tied closer to Indonesian culture. 

Every fight has rules, to a certain extent.  They may not involve a cutman or mats, but the rules could make a difference in whether you have to shell out for a one time consult, or whether you have to dig deeper for a retainer.


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## Steve (Mar 2, 2009)

Glycerine0160 said:


> Trust me, I'm relaxed. Actually, I think I was attempting to prevent any posters from diminishing my relaxation ATM.


Well, I hope it works.  Most of the people around here are very nice.  There is heated discussion, but it rarely gets personal and when it does, the mods are on it pretty fast.





> I will take what you said about the knee into consideration. Bruce said a kick to the knee is very effective. I will take what you said and discuss and research it to be certain you are right.


I hope you do.  


> I will admit, I have limited experience in grappling. That is actually a consideration I should look forward to.


I hope you do this, too.  Grappling is great fun, whether you choose BJJ, Sambo, Judo, Aikido or whatever.  I don't like hitting things at all, and that includes the ground, so I stick with BJJ where we roll around a lot. 


> The point of the video is to say in a real life situation without any rules, that is how I would choose to act. It's quicker, less effort, and very deadly. hahahah, but your dry criticism of the video was a good laugh.


Very true, although, now that you've explained it to me, I think I agree with others who have responded.  Maiming and death as a common result of a sporting event would make for a very shortlived sport.  

Still, I'll remind you that a lot IS allowed including blows to the knee, as mentioned above.  

I want to also mention that the lack of eye gouges, fish hooking and the like doesn't diminish other martial arts.  If the topic at hand is, "Has MMA done harm to martial arts," I don't think the ruleset applies.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2009)

MMA is a sport, it's a competitive sport, a game, a hobby, a thing to test your courage, something to train for. It's made up of many martial arts, to disprespect MMA is actually disrespecting your own style as it's in there, trust me. I know fighters whose base styles come from all the major styles including CMA. 
MMA fighters can defend themselves in the street if need be, they aren't so stupid they think they are in the ring/cage. This always comes up when people discuss MMA..."oh it can't be used for SD, it has rules" of course it does dear, it's a competitive sport. 

UFC advertising probably says more about modern America than it does MMA. When you talk about the UFC as if it were MMA, you are wrong. The UFC is a company, the same as Ford, Hoover, Microsoft etc etc. It is not the syle of martial arts, please don't mistake the UFC for MMA. It's merely a promotion not a style. 

Most karate styles have grappling in them, look in the katas for it. You can also get Iain Abernethy's books, dvds and go on his seminars if you can't find them.
TigerCraneGuy...great post! 

Enough already, if your style has no bad apples, is perfect, doesn't throw chi balls, doesn't promote children to Dan grades, it's competitiors win every fight in comps, beats every bad guy in the street and all the instructors wear halos feel free to criticise MMA until then show us the courtesy on MT that we the MMAers show you. You won't have seen any fight talk from us on here, we try to explain our style/art and yet all we get back is 'I hate the UFC and the tattooed fighters, I hate MMA coz you can't do it on the street, I hate MMA because it's not *my* style'

Underground fights = :rofl: you don't really believe all that surely?


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 3, 2009)

I wonder if it's just me, but it has been my experience that the loudest and most obnoxious of the "MMA rules all" crowd always seem to be the ones that don't actually train in....well.....ANYTHING.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> I wonder if it's just me, but it has been my experience that the loudest and most obnoxious of the "MMA rules all" crowd always seem to be the ones that don't actually train in....well.....ANYTHING.


 
quoted for truth!!


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## kroh (Mar 3, 2009)

I really like what MMA has done for martial arts.  It has brought MA into the spotlight again much like Ninjutsu did in the 80's and Martial Arts movies did in the 90's.  

In the town where I live some one opened a gym that offers training in wrestling (folk/collegiate and freestyle) as well as MMA.  I thought this was a fantastic sign of where martial arts is headed in the public perception.  Having something like these sports side by side not only raises awareness of what we do (us being kung fooligans) but also introduces us into something we might not have tried (the wrestling). 

As far as everything else... you will always have the loudmouths.  If you are such a big bad mama jama MMA dude or worse, a kung fool thinking your stuff is unbeatable... go prove how tough you are and bring in Osama Bin Laden or use you incredible grappling skills to keep a neighborhood safe as a police officer.  Everyone else just wants to train and could care less about the ranting. 

Great discussions so far...
Regards, 
Walt


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## searcher (Mar 3, 2009)

Rich Parsons said:


> Searcher,
> 
> . So, knowing some ground work to be able to move and to control enough to get up is good. But for self defense are you saying that you could submit people in a street fight?
> 
> ...


 


It never ended up with a submission.    It always ended up with taking the submission technique to the next step, dislocation or bone break.    I wish people in the pre-MMA days would have given up, but they did not.   Which always forced it to that next step.     Never fun, but a reality.    And for it being one-on-one, it rarely happened.   The possibility of having multiple people wanting to stomp you made the "next step" easier to take.   I still have ribs that are broken off from being on the ground with a guy's buddy and I WAS getting the upper hand, which did not last long.    Having those submission techniques gave some the  upper hand if they were willing to go to exteme lengths when using them.

Rich-hope this answers your question.


----------



## searcher (Mar 3, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> I wonder if it's just me, but it has been my experience that the loudest and most obnoxious of the "MMA rules all" crowd always seem to be the ones that don't actually train in....well.....ANYTHING.


 

:bow:


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 3, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> I wonder if it's just me, but it has been my experience that the loudest and most obnoxious of the "MMA rules all" crowd always seem to be the ones that don't actually train in....well.....ANYTHING.


How very true.

What has happened is that MMA has been shown to be "Tougher than wrestling" because it isn't fake or prearanged.  The promoters have gone to a lot of trouble to bring in viewers and have gone after the same crowd that WWE appeals to.  So consequently, you have a large part of the fanbase that is comprised of ... well... fanboys.

Daniel


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2009)

WWE is marketed here as a kids thing, there's toys, comics etc. I don't think there's nearly as many fans here as the States. It's not on mainstream television and doesn't make much of an impact really. Just a fun thing, I don't think the yob element goes for it here, we have football.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 3, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> WWE is marketed here as a kids thing, there's toys, comics etc. I don't think there's nearly as many fans here as the States. It's not on mainstream television and doesn't make much of an impact really. Just a fun thing, I don't think the yob element goes for it here, we have football.


How fortunate for you.  The WWE is marketed to kids here to a lesser extent, but is mainly focuses on teens and young adults.  Just my own observation, but I feel that the transition began when the WWF became the WWE, and around the same time kind of came clean about it being entertainment and not fighting.

At that time, WWF's hardcore fans, mainly male teens and young adults, began to take a greater interest in the UFC, which was also beginning to be marketed more aggresively at that time.

I haven't decided if picking up that particular fanbase is good for MMA as a whole or not.  On the one hand, those folks are seeing a much better event than anything the WWE/F has even thought about doing for at least twenty to thirty years.  

On the other hand, I'm a bit concerned that the UFC may start affecting some of the WWE's practices in order to retain and broaden that audience.  In that case, MMA would, at least in the states, suffer a bit.

Only time will tell. 

Daniel


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## Hagakure (Mar 3, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> WWE is marketed here as a kids thing, there's toys, comics etc. I don't think there's nearly as many fans here as the States. It's not on mainstream television and doesn't make much of an impact really. Just a fun thing, I don't think the yob element goes for it here, we have football.


 

Good God don't we just. I "HATE" football/soccer/Wendy-ball with a passion. I hate it, and its fans/thugs. Sorry, it's the one thing that gets my goat. Overrated, over paid, under mannered. I worked at Birmingham City FC doing a basic security role after I left the RN in 04, and met several footballers. Almost to a man they were arrogant and conceited. How true is it that too much money and not enough thought corrupts... Want a proper game? Play/watch rugby.  

Moving back on track. What is it with yobs and sport? The idiots that I've wasted my own time with arguing with on other less distinguished sites, have been the fanboys. Not the "I train 10 hours a week, and that's before I step into the ring to put it into practice" lads. Them, I've the utmost respect for, that and I wouldn't wanna mess with them.


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## Steve (Mar 3, 2009)

The WWE is like soap operas for dudes.  No more, no less.  I hate that the UFC/WEC market in that way.  But they didn't start it.  The Japanese are WAY more into the theatrics of professional wrestling than we are in the USA.  Look at Pride.  Josh Barnett routinely makes money taking pro wrestling gigs in Japan.  

I'm having a problem, though, with the implied idea that the ills of MMA are America's fault.  The picture Tez and others paint of the state of MMA in the UK just doesn't seem realistic to me.  I agree with your descriptions of the people who train in MMA.  I think that they are much the same here in the States.  But when you talk about MMA as a sport in the UK, it just seems... like you're looking through rose colored glasses.  I don't know a ton about the scene over there, but from what I've heard about the unsanctioned boxing events, and from the events I've seen on TV and the internet from over there, it looks... exactly the same as it does here (with all of the good and bad that this implies).  

Maybe it's early and I need another cup of coffee, but the "That says more about modern America" line irritated me a little.  The UK isn't all peaches and cream.  Neither is Japan or any place else.


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## Sandstorm (Mar 3, 2009)

Just a couple of things here. 
The tattoos issue has been covered, so I'l skip that. 
The 'Wing Chun' issue seems to be rattling some peoples chains. Ok, so the Wing Chun practitioners didn't do so well in the arena. Does that make WC less effective as a fighting style? No, not in my opinion, but not for the reasons stated so far either. Most fights are won due to the individual, not the style. Just look at how it's run now. MMA have Teams as opposed to 'Arts' that they represent. The basic skillset is a common standard now, because that skillset is what works in the arena. All it comes down to is how well the individual 'uses' that skillset against his/her opponant. 

Arguing that 'Wing Chun' or any other art is not suitable for MMA because it uses techniques that aren't allowed in the arena is absolute tosh. Effectively, what your saying there is that if you took those rules away and fought an MMA fighter, you would win as a WC practitioner. This appears to me that there is an assumption that while those rules have been removed to allow such techniques, the MMA fighter will not also employ said techniques? So, you want to spear the eyes with Biu Jee, why can't the MMA fighter choose to do that also? Biting? Wrenching? Throat strikes? You name it, just because your art practices such things, does that mean the MMA fighter won't also use them? Let's face it, do you 'really' practice biting and eye gouging? I think not. You strike a towel or a sandbag etc to toughen the fingers, yes, so why would the MMA fighter not just extend his fingers and stab the eye instead of a standard punch? I'm not picking on Wing Chun here, I'm using it as reference due to it being mentioned. This applies to 'any' art. Dangerous techniques are removed because it's a sport. It's got to appeal to the audience and fighters alike. 

Put an MMA fighter in the street and he will have, not only the tools of his trade in the arena, but all the other tools that streetfighters would use. Add to that the conditioning, and I think most people would really struggle to cause the MMA guy any trouble.

Now, in the early days of MMA/UFC, where rules were really limited, this is when we actually saw the Wing Chun practitioners fight. One guy outweighed Johnny Rhodes (a retired kickboxer) and ended up fighting most of the fight on the floor against him. Was that a display of Wing Chun? Why did Emin Boztepe constantly refuse to fight Royce Gracie? 
Bottom line here is, yes, Wing Chun is a fantastic art for self defence. As are many others. They work in the street for sure, I can vouch for that from personal experience. What you have to remember is, these arts are designed for self defence. Not sport fighting. Above all, not for fighting against experienced fighters. Rhodes won because he had superior ring-craft. He understood the flooring he was on. he understood footwork. He could block and duck and weave away from strikes and use his pivots. The average guy on the street will not have these abilities. Big big difference.

As for the advertising the UFC does, well, glamourising violence and aggression is called 'marketing'. Violence, like sex, sells. And we humans, Buy


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## Andrew Green (Mar 3, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> That video was hilarious, I could watch the "crazy monkey in a cage" bit over and over again, that just screams "animated gif"


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## Andrew Green (Mar 3, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Why does the kick have to be directed at the knee , a low heel kick can be very effective when directed to the shin.
> 
> The knee does not have to be broken to cause an effect , the pain from a low heel kick to the shin can be quite debilitating , like banging your shin into a coffee table.



Except that ring fighters are professional fighters, they kick with thier shin and check hundreds of kicks shin to shin every week.

On a untrained person, especially if you are wearing shoes, this might cause a reaction, but on a trained fighter it won't do a thing.



Andy Moynihan said:


> I wonder if it's just me, but it has been my experience that the loudest and most obnoxious of the "MMA rules all" crowd always seem to be the ones that don't actually train in....well.....ANYTHING.



Yup, always.

MMA is eclectic by nature and when training it you are free to take things from anywhere and anyone, as long as they work.  Lets you see the value in everything.

But before that it was people that didn't train claiming ninjitsu was the best, and before that kung fu and before that karate.  Largely revolves around whatever is "new and exciting"

The loudest stuff always comes from tv watchers, people that believe every word of their marketing then the actual marketing.


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## mook jong man (Mar 3, 2009)

Andrew Green said:


> Except that ring fighters are professional fighters, they kick with thier shin and check hundreds of kicks shin to shin every week.
> 
> On a untrained person, especially if you are wearing shoes, this might cause a reaction, but on a trained fighter it won't do a thing .
> 
> ...


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## bowser666 (Mar 3, 2009)

Well I have learned a lot from being a member on these forums and the whole MMA love/hate  vs TMA relationship. Here is what I have learned. it is a good ol Chinese proverb actually.  The bucket that is half full makes alot of noise, the full one is silent.  If you are content with your training ( regardless of style, TMA , sport MMA, or whatever) and you are accomplishing the goals that you set for yourself then there is no need to broadcast which is better. Simply be content with yourself. 

I started as the half full bucket , and bought into alot of stereotypes based on style prejudices , but then I realized that I was fulfilling  the stereotype myself.  Which is why I say, do what floats your boat. Just be humble about it and use it to benefit others.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2009)

So I'm lying about British MMA then? thanks alot. No I didn't say everything was peaches and cream here but MMA is exactly as I have said, it's not a sport for wimps, it's not for your tippy tappy poncey points scorers, yes we have our share of thugs but very few in MMA, they are mostly in football. Unlicensed boxing, I know nothing about, boxing and MMA doesn't go well together in this country and have nothing to do with each other. Tell me which promotions and/or which fighters you've seen on U Tube and I will give the truth about the show.

I've been involved in MMA for eight years, we've run over 30 shows and we've been to every promotion's shows in the country. What you have to bear in mind, and I've said this before, is that MMA in the UK is a very small sport, with only a few fighters (only a couple of hundred if that in the whole country) compared to the States so of course it's different, it's like a village...we all know each other. No one said that the fighting in the ring/cage was different, just we have a different way of looking at MMA here, there's no money to be made fighting in this country so while fighters fight pro rules  and receive a purse they are amateur fighters. The biggest purse will barely be a thousand pounds (only a couple of fighters ever get that) and that will have to be a big show like Cage Rage, most fighters will only get a couple of hundred pounds , semis and amateurs get expenses on our show but other shows they'll receive little or nothing. We have the British Fighting Championships coming up, the fighters purse will be five hundred pound, the biggest purse most will have ever seen.

There was no implication that everything wrong with MMA was Americans fault, thats misread. If things are wrong with MMA it's the UFCs fault and I take issue with everyone thinking that the UFC is the style of fighting. 

There's nothing to say that MMA in the UK won't get huge but at the moment it's not, it's very much a minority sport, a good crowd for normal shows is a about five hundred people, Cage Rage managed more but was in London, it's also out of business. Ultimate Combat (remember that Sandstorm? lol) was quite big but also out of business.

It's not a case of wearing rose coloured glasses, after all you can't get closer to British MMA than I am, it's more a case of we are a very tiny sport here, there's far more interest in kick boxing, MT and TMAs here than MMA. MT have fight nights on the TV here. 

professional fighters in the UK
We have 10 flyweights
12 bantamweights
19 featherweights
20 light weights
20 welterweights
18 middle weights
15 heavyweights - this includes Buzz Berry and Ian Freeman both retired
8 super heavyweight.

we have more people who fight semi and amateur but these aren't ranked. A fight night here will commonly have about 10-15 fights on the card, only the top two will be professional fights. There will be two to three shows a month  in various parts of the country. In March theres 2 shows in Wales, one in the NE of England. The distance is too far for most other than locals to attend or fight. Some shows like ours will bring European fighters across, we have a contact in Italy who sends fighters as they have the same problem as us of having a small pool to chose from.


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## Hagakure (Mar 3, 2009)

bowser666 said:


> Well I have learned a lot from being a member on these forums and the whole MMA love/hate  vs TMA relationship. Here is what I have learned. it is a good ol Chinese proverb actually.  The bucket that is half full makes alot of noise, the full one is silent.  If you are content with your training ( regardless of style, TMA , sport MMA, or whatever) and you are accomplishing the goals that you set for yourself then there is no need to broadcast which is better. Simply be content with yourself.
> 
> I started as the half full bucket , and bought into alot of stereotypes based on style prejudices , but then I realized that I was fulfilling  the stereotype myself.  Which is why I say, do what floats your boat. Just be humble about it and use it to benefit others.



Oh my word, how true mate. I have a confession to make. Tonight, I broke my own vow. I argued with a moron on a particular video broadcasting site. He was a MMA/UFC fanboy, I'd had a hard day, and well, he'd slagged chi sau off, which if you don't know is "just" a drill in WC to learn about flow of close in movement/sensitivity etc etc. This guy was berating it saying "that's not fighting, that sucks, it wouldn't work in the UFC nyeh nyeh nyeh", so I went for him. Of course I got the "your (sic) stupid nyeh nyeh" comment back so it was my own fault. The fighters who step up to the plate and put their health and pride on the line I have total admiration. Genuinely. I publicly admit it now, I _very _much doubt I have the moral courage to do what they do, to step into the ring/octagon and to fight. _Many, _althoughnot all of the fans are little more than poorly educated, ignorant thugs that I loathe and despise for their limited view on life. Is that wrong, yeah, yeah it is, but I simply don't care anymore. I just don't have time for ignorant NEDS as the Scots would call them. 

Same goes for the snobby TMA guys who look down on anyone doing a _mere_ sport, one that happens to require stones the size of houses to do in my book. Either way if you're an ignorant flid from a MMA background because you've watched a view UFC bouts you ought not be allowed access to a pc, same for TMA purists. It's like arguing who's made best the purchase for a car (Jeez, have I already posted this in one thread? Can't remember...) AHHHHH!!!! Now I'm mad at myself for arguing with someone who's IQ is likely lower than the welcome mat in my hallway. I blame you guys. Tut.


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## mook jong man (Mar 3, 2009)

Hagakure said:


> I argued with a moron on a particular video broadcasting site. He was a MMA/UFC fanboy, I'd had a hard day, and well, he'd slagged chi sau off, which if you don't know is "just" a drill in WC to learn about flow of close in movement/sensitivity etc etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2009)

Hagakure said:


> Oh my word, how true mate. I have a confession to make. Tonight, I broke my own vow. I argued with a moron on a particular video broadcasting site. He was a MMA/UFC fanboy, I'd had a hard day, and well, he'd slagged chi sau off, which if you don't know is "just" a drill in WC to learn about flow of close in movement/sensitivity etc etc. This guy was berating it saying "that's not fighting, that sucks, it wouldn't work in the UFC nyeh nyeh nyeh", so I went for him. Of course I got the "your (sic) stupid nyeh nyeh" comment back so it was my own fault. The fighters who step up to the plate and put their health and pride on the line I have total admiration. Genuinely. I publicly admit it now, I _very _much doubt I have the moral courage to do what they do, to step into the ring/octagon and to fight. _Many, _althoughnot all of the fans are little more than poorly educated, ignorant thugs that I loathe and despise for their limited view on life. Is that wrong, yeah, yeah it is, but I simply don't care anymore. I just don't have time for ignorant NEDS as the Scots would call them.
> 
> Same goes for the snobby TMA guys who look down on anyone doing a _mere_ sport, one that happens to require stones the size of houses to do in my book. Either way if you're an ignorant flid from a MMA background because you've watched a view UFC bouts you ought not be allowed access to a pc, same for TMA purists. It's like arguing who's made best the purchase for a car (Jeez, have I already posted this in one thread? Can't remember...) AHHHHH!!!! Now I'm mad at myself for arguing with someone who's IQ is likely lower than the welcome mat in my hallway. I blame you guys. Tut.


 
I see I'm going to have to take you in hand and take you to a show lol! We have the British Fighting Championships coming up so as soon as I get a date I'll sort it with you and introduce you to the real fans of MMA not the wannabe fanboys of UFC who I doubt ever get out of their chairs, they probably are the ones who train their dogs to fetch their beer for them!
I'd look upon arguing with them on the internet as stress release lol! Like those squidgy things you squeeze in your hand!
Btw my instructor was showing me what chain punching was tonight, I keep reading about it here but didn't know what it was. My instructor loves MMA but also loves all martial arts and is very knowledgable about most of them.


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## Slihn (Mar 3, 2009)

DeLamar.J said:


> I love MMA but at times I think it has done alot of harm to the martial arts world. Most people think that you have to compete in UFC to prove that your art is effective. Real kung Fu was not made for a sporting event. There are people who train in iron palm who can break 7 bricks free standing with no spacers, why would they join a fight where they have to cover up their hands? Wing Chun concentrates on strikes to vital areas that MMA events dont allow, so why the hate for the WC guys who go into the cage under rules they are not used to following?
> There is so much disrespect from MMA people trying to discredit real martial artists because they wont fight in MMA.


 
I like some aspects of MMA , but I dont like the Macho culture that goes along with it. I think that the machoness of MMA has taken away the Honor of Martial Arts. It seems like in MMA its all about how many tattoos you have , the baddest attidute, and the rudess mouth.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2009)

ChzKmt said:


> I like some aspects of MMA , but I dont like the Macho culture that goes along with it. I think that the machoness of MMA has taken away the Honor of Martial Arts. It seems like in MMA its all about how many tattoos you have , the baddest attidute, and the rudess mouth.


 
Yeah thats right, thats why this middle aged woman has a tattoo, a grumpy attitude and a rudess mouth? (whats one of them anyway)
There's real honour in martial arts when they grade 6 year old as 2nd Dans and they make you pay contracts and if you don't they throw chi balls at you.

Of course I know TMAs aren't all like that but not all MMA is trash talking lump heads.

What is this thread? a lets beat up on MMA one? If this was a TMA you were all bad mouthing about it would generate loads of RTMs, but I guess it's open season on MMA so much for the honour of TMAs then lol!


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## Slihn (Mar 3, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Yeah thats right, thats why this middle aged woman has a tattoo, a grumpy attitude and a rudess mouth? (whats one of them anyway)
> There's real honour in martial arts when they grade 6 year old as 2nd Dans and they make you pay contracts and if you don't they throw chi balls at you.
> 
> Of course I know TMAs aren't all like that but not all MMA is trash talking lump heads.
> ...


 
I didnt say honor in people , but in martial arts. What people do dishonors themselves not the martial arts. If a teahcer promotoes a kid to a high level then it is his honestu that is question , not the culture of the martial art. Yes people are very corrupt!

Also , I didnt mean to offend you by the tattoo thing ( I have one myself) , but in the MMA community , its all about how Bada** you are , who can talk it , and so fourth. Alot of MMA fighters can fight but I HATE the culture. In (real) Muay Thai people are very friendly and polite , we take care not to hurt each other. The atmosphere is so friendly , and polite and being an a**hole as acutally looked down upon.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2009)

ChzKmt said:


> I didnt say honor in people , but in martial arts. What people do dishonors themselves not the martial arts. If a teahcer promotoes a kid to a high level then it is his honestu that is question , not the culture of the martial art. Yes people are very corrupt!
> 
> Also , I didnt mean to offend you by the tattoo thing ( I have one myself) , but in the MMA community , its all about how Bada** you are , who can talk it , and so fourth. Alot of MMA fighters can fight but I HATE the culture. In (real) Muay Thai people are very friendly and polite , we take care not to hurt each other. The atmosphere is so friendly , and polite and being an a**hole as acutally looked down upon.


 

You are generalising. so all MT people are great and all MMA people aren't? The MMA culture? You have no idea what the culture is here in my country!


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## Steve (Mar 3, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> So I'm lying about British MMA then? thanks alot. No I didn't say everything was peaches and cream here but MMA is exactly as I have said, it's not a sport for wimps, it's not for your tippy tappy poncey points scorers, yes we have our share of thugs but very few in MMA, they are mostly in football. Unlicensed boxing, I know nothing about, boxing and MMA doesn't go well together in this country and have nothing to do with each other. Tell me which promotions and/or which fighters you've seen on U Tube and I will give the truth about the show.
> 
> I've been involved in MMA for eight years, we've run over 30 shows and we've been to every promotion's shows in the country. What you have to bear in mind, and I've said this before, is that MMA in the UK is a very small sport, with only a few fighters (only a couple of hundred if that in the whole country) compared to the States so of course it's different, it's like a village...we all know each other. No one said that the fighting in the ring/cage was different, just we have a different way of looking at MMA here, there's no money to be made fighting in this country so while fighters fight pro rules  and receive a purse they are amateur fighters. The biggest purse will barely be a thousand pounds (only a couple of fighters ever get that) and that will have to be a big show like Cage Rage, most fighters will only get a couple of hundred pounds , semis and amateurs get expenses on our show but other shows they'll receive little or nothing. We have the British Fighting Championships coming up, the fighters purse will be five hundred pound, the biggest purse most will have ever seen.
> 
> ...


Tez, first, I was a little cranky, but to explain, it has nothing to do with you lying about anything.  I'm not sure where that came from.  It had  to do with my being irritated by how cavalier you can be sometimes in disparaging America.  Phrases like, "Maybe that's more to do with the State of Modern America" just push my buttons, I guess. 

Honestly, I don't necessarily disagree with you for the most part, but it's like when someone insults your brother.  Makes you mad, whether it's true or not.  "Hey, only I can say that about him."   I guess this morning, I should have had the second cup of joe before posting.


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## MJS (Mar 3, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Why does the kick have to be directed at the knee , a low heel kick can be very effective when directed to the shin .
> 
> The knee does not have to be broken to cause an effect , the pain from a low heel kick to the shin can be quite debilitating , like banging your shin into a coffee table.
> 
> ...


 
I agree, the shin is a great target.  Of course, for those MMA fighters that don't wear shoes, that would probably be a target I'd avoid.


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## Slihn (Mar 3, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> You are generalising. so all MT people are great and all MMA people aren't? The MMA culture? You have no idea what the culture is here in my country!


 
Your right , I have no idea what culture is in your country , but I do know what it is in mine and generally speaking the "culture" for MMA here sucks. Im sorry it just the way I feel about it. I think that being a kind , humble, and polite person holds more honor than being the meaness baddess person on the face of the palnet. 

If is this something you dont understand, then it is probably something that you can't understand.


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## Slihn (Mar 3, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> You are generalising. so all MT people are great and all MMA people aren't? The MMA culture? You have no idea what the culture is here in my country!


 
Your right , I dont know what MMA culture is like in your country because I dont live there , but here it sucks.


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## Steve (Mar 3, 2009)

ChzKmt said:


> Your right , I have no idea what culture is in your country , but I do know what it is in mine and generally speaking the "culture" for MMA here sucks. Im sorry it just the way I feel about it. I think that being a kind , humble, and polite person holds more honor than being the meaness baddess person on the face of the palnet.
> 
> If is this something you dont understand, then it is probably something that you can't understand.


Most of the MMA guys I know personally are kind and humble.  I do know of one local school in particular with a bunch of jerks.  The school will take on the personality of the instructor, and students of like mind will tend to find the school that suits them, for good or ill.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2009)

Steve you have read my comment wrong, I went back and read my posts and what I said was "_*UFC advertising* probably says more about modern America than it does MMA"._

 I didn't say "Maybe that's more to do with the State of Modern America" as you state. 

America is the inventor of advertising and hype, the adverts for the UFC are high end professional advertising which says more about America as in it's a business orientated country where advertising is the lynch pin to selling. advertising in your country is a big business in itself. MMA doesn't say anything about America! it wasn't an insult in the least.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2009)

ChzKmt said:


> Your right , I dont know what MMA culture is like in your country because I dont live there , but here it sucks.


 
A lot of our fighters have been across to fight in the States, we also have a British promotion there and they've all said there's really good people in America and it's not that different from the UK! We had an American fighter come across from one of our shows, Skip Hall, a real gentleman and a cracking fighter, old school TMA too, he's judged on UFC and trained with the Gracies. he would not allow any idiots to train with him I know. I find it hard to believe that in all of the huge country there's not one good MMA person or club, thats ridiculous. Chances are you've meet some idiots and are thinking we are all like that.


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## Steve (Mar 3, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Steve you have read my comment wrong, I went back and read my posts and what I said was "_*UFC advertising* probably says more about modern America than it does MMA"._
> 
> I didn't say "Maybe that's more to do with the State of Modern America" as you state.
> 
> America is the inventor of advertising and hype, the adverts for the UFC are high end professional advertising which says more about America as in it's a business orientated country where advertising is the lynch pin to selling. advertising in your country is a big business in itself. MMA doesn't say anything about America! it wasn't an insult in the least.


Hey, I said I was pre-coffee!!!   What do you want me to come out and flat out say I was wr... wro... wr...  wrrroooooo ... was the opposite of right?  Jeez... can't you let a guy off the hook?


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Hey, I said I was pre-coffee!!! What do you want me to come out and flat out say I was wr... wro... wr... wrrroooooo ... was the opposite of right? Jeez... can't you let a guy off the hook?


 
You're married right? then you understand! ROFL!! :whip1:


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## mook jong man (Mar 3, 2009)

MJS said:


> I agree, the shin is a great target. Of course, for those MMA fighters that don't wear shoes, that would probably be a target I'd avoid.


 
Are you allowed to wear shoes in MMA ?
 What type of shoes are they ?
And if you wear shoes are you still allowed to kick with the heel ?


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Are you allowed to wear shoes in MMA ?
> What type of shoes are they ?
> And if you wear shoes are you still allowed to kick with the heel ?


 
You can wear grappling boots but they aren't recommended as they get caught easily when on the floor, you can't get out of heel, ankle and calf locks and crushes.
You can kick with what you like apart from no heel kicks to the kidneys or spine, shoes or no shoes...this is when in guard usually.


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## mook jong man (Mar 3, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> You can wear grappling boots but they aren't recommended as they get caught easily when on the floor, you can't get out of heel, ankle and calf locks and crushes.
> You can kick with what you like apart from no heel kicks to the kidneys or spine, shoes or no shoes...this is when in guard usually.


 
Interesting , I can see where having boots on would be disadvantageous in trying to release your foot from a tight ankle lock .
Thank you for your insight Tez.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 3, 2009)

ChzKmt said:


> Your right , I have no idea what culture is in your country , but I do know what it is in mine and generally speaking the "culture" for MMA here sucks. Im sorry it just the way I feel about it. I think that being a kind , humble, and polite person holds more honor than being the meaness baddess person on the face of the palnet.
> 
> If is this something you dont understand, then it is probably something that you can't understand.




I think you are confusing "MMA culture" with "professional sports marketing"

MMA, outside of the "show" fighters put on is not at all like you think it is, at least not that I have seen.

On the flip side "traditional" culture when it comes to competition often seems the opposite, it puts on a show about being humble and respectful, but in reality the competitors and coaches are just as bad as any other sport.


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## Steve (Mar 3, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> You can wear grappling boots but they aren't recommended as they get caught easily when on the floor, you can't get out of heel, ankle and calf locks and crushes.
> You can kick with what you like apart from no heel kicks to the kidneys or spine, shoes or no shoes...this is when in guard usually.



Off topic, but if I ever jack up my toes, I'll buy a pair of sambo shoes.  They're like wrestling shoes but have a soft suede sole. No worse on heel hooks than an ankle wrap.


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## jarrod (Mar 3, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Off topic, but if I ever jack up my toes, I'll buy a pair of sambo shoes.  They're like wrestling shoes but have a soft suede sole. No worse on heel hooks than an ankle wrap.



they are better than wrestling shoes, but they do still make your feet more hook-able than bare feet.  they run about a size large, too.  

jf


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## LordOfWu (Mar 3, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Interesting , I can see where having boots on would be disadvantageous in trying to release your foot from a tight ankle lock .
> Thank you for your insight Tez.



I didn't go all the way back to your original post, but I wanted to say that the few MMA fighters I know, and pretty much every Muy Thai guy I know does condition their whole shin for contact.  In a street situation the person will be shocked or give at least some hesitation in most situations from a shin attack, but if you are training for that and expect pain then the advantage will be little to none.  I myself after playing {gasp} soccer (yes, in America  ) for over 20 years have very little in the way of nerves left in my shins, and I can say that when I've trained leg kicks the impact on me is much different than most people I've trained with.

I think the key is the difference between self defense and fighting a trained prize fighter.


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## Hagakure (Mar 4, 2009)

LordOfWu said:


> I didn't go all the way back to your original post, but I wanted to say that the few MMA fighters I know, and pretty much every Muy Thai guy I know does condition their whole shin for contact. In a street situation the person will be shocked or give at least some hesitation in most situations from a shin attack, but if you are training for that and expect pain then the advantage will be little to none. I myself after playing {gasp} soccer (yes, in America  ) for over 20 years have very little in the way of nerves left in my shins, and I can say that when I've trained leg kicks the impact on me is much different than most people I've trained with.
> 
> *I think the key is the difference between self defense and fighting a trained prize fighter.*


 
I reckon that's the key difference in all of this in some regards. I train to beat the average guy on the street (whatever that is), which I'm guessing/hoping isn't a trained prize fighter. Call it limited, it's what I train for. The idiot in a club, the malcontent on the street, not a 200 pound oiled and bronzed punching and grappling machine.  Tez, thought you'd like that.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 4, 2009)

Hagakure said:


> I reckon that's the key difference in all of this in some regards. I train to beat the average guy on the street (whatever that is), which I'm guessing/hoping isn't a trained prize fighter. Call it limited, it's what I train for. The idiot in a club, the malcontent on the street, not a 200 pound oiled and bronzed punching and grappling machine.  Tez, thought you'd like that.


 
Same here.
I practise ninpo because I enjoy it. That's also why I practised jiu-jitsu in the past. Being the best 'fighter' is not that important for me, and I don't do full contact sparring.

So while my martial arts experience allows me to 'beat the average guy on the street', I realize that it takes much, much longer to become proficient enough in ninpo to take on an experienced fighter. And even then, I am not sure that 20 years of ninpo is a match for 20 years of MMA experience.

Anywho... I don't think MMA has done any damage to martial arts. It has brought mainstream attention to all-round fighting, and it has disolved the notion that there is such a thing as 'the best fighting art' or the idea that a single style is all you need to know to fight.
Now if only Eurosport started airing MMA over here...


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## mook jong man (Mar 4, 2009)

LordOfWu said:


> I didn't go all the way back to your original post, but I wanted to say that the few MMA fighters I know, and pretty much every Muy Thai guy I know does condition their whole shin for contact. In a street situation the person will be shocked or give at least some hesitation in most situations from a shin attack, but if you are training for that and expect pain then the advantage will be little to none. I myself after playing {gasp} soccer (yes, in America  ) for over 20 years have very little in the way of nerves left in my shins, and I can say that when I've trained leg kicks the impact on me is much different than most people I've trained with.
> 
> I think the key is the difference between self defense and fighting a trained prize fighter.


 
Thats good , but the attack is not done in isolation it is used to bridge the gap , so that we can get into close range or stop an advancing leg , and then you will be facing chain punches that will be coming down your center line at the rate of 6 or 7 a second . 

Do not under estimate the power of these attacks , Wing Chun only contains a small repertoire of moves but they are practiced constantly and are usually done very well.


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## Steve (Mar 4, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Thats good , but the attack is not done in isolation it is used to bridge the gap , so that we can get into close range or stop an advancing leg , and then you will be facing chain punches that will be coming down your center line at the rate of 6 or 7 a second .
> 
> Do not under estimate the power of these attacks , Wing Chun only contains a small repertoire of moves but they are practiced constantly and are usually done very well.


 Please don't turn this into an MMA vs WC thread.  I get it.  Wing Chun is awesome.  I saw the Fight Quest episode.  I believe you.  Deadly. 

Getting back to the original point here, kicks to the knee and shin are legal in MMA, so if they are a big part of the WC arsenal, then they would remain so in MMA.  Also, chain punching is, by what I've been told here and elsewhere, a cumulative thing.  Right?  One punch may not get you, but 6 or 7 per second will.  At least that's the theory.  Right?  So, chain punching isn't against the rules of any MMA promotion I'm aware of.  

So, at least in this case, MMA isn't bad for Wing Chun that I can tell.


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## mook jong man (Mar 4, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Please don't turn this into an MMA vs WC thread. I get it. Wing Chun is awesome. I saw the Fight Quest episode. I believe you. Deadly.
> 
> Getting back to the original point here, kicks to the knee and shin are legal in MMA, so if they are a big part of the WC arsenal, then they would remain so in MMA. Also, chain punching is, by what I've been told here and elsewhere, a cumulative thing. Right? One punch may not get you, but 6 or 7 per second will. At least that's the theory. Right? So, chain punching isn't against the rules of any MMA promotion I'm aware of.
> 
> So, at least in this case, MMA isn't bad for Wing Chun that I can tell.


I am not saying its awesome or deadly just don't underestimate it until you have felt it from somebody who knows what they are doing.
 Chain punching might not be against the rules , but what about trapping ? Would the judges even know what trapping was if they saw it ?


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 4, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> So while my martial arts experience allows me to 'beat the average guy on the street', I realize that it takes much, much longer to become proficient enough in ninpo to take on an experienced fighter. And even then, I am not sure that 20 years of ninpo is a match for 20 years of MMA experience.


 
If you train against realistic attack then there shouldn't be anything you can't handle, so long as your opponent is not better than you that is. I think we can all agree on the difficulty of fighting a skilled opponent, but remember even battles between really skilled martial artists don't last more than a few seconds.

20 years of ninpo, MMA, karate, JKD, TKD or whatever...20 years of anything makes you a dangerous person (if you train hard enough) and I wouldn't take any of them lightly.


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## LordOfWu (Mar 4, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Thats good , but the attack is not done in isolation it is used to bridge the gap , so that we can get into close range or stop an advancing leg , and then you will be facing chain punches that will be coming down your center line at the rate of 6 or 7 a second .
> 
> Do not under estimate the power of these attacks , Wing Chun only contains a small repertoire of moves but they are practiced constantly and are usually done very well.



I would say at this point that WC practitioners should then have a good handle on that aspect of MMA then, since leg kicks are usually something used over time or to lead to another technique.  That's one of the cool aspects of MMA, and it goes right along with Bruce Lee's philosophy, take out of any and all arts the techniques and movements that are best for you.

For a last bit of clarification, leg kicks of any kind and chain punchs, and trapping (as I understand it, which shouldn't encompass grabbing the glove ro any other clothing) would be acceptable in an MMA match.  I would only guess that such techniques have not been proven as effective (in MMA!) as the grappling and muy thai techniques more commonly used in MMA.  Not saying they are not effective, but in cage, I haven't seen them done as effectively.


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## Steve (Mar 4, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> I am not saying its awesome or deadly just don't underestimate it until you have felt it from somebody who knows what they are doing.
> Chain punching might not be against the rules , but what about trapping ? Would the judges even know what trapping was if they saw it ?


Trapping isn't against the rules, either.  I'd be interested in seeing if it works.  I've heard many comparisons to BJJ groundwork (particularly from guard) and the skills/techniques for trapping.  The best grapplers will, when on the bottom, never stay flat.  Rather, their head is up off the mat, their shoulders and hips are moving, and they're tying up their opponents' arms and head and controlling them.  

Come on, dude.  Why are you trying to make this about Wing Chun?  Instead of persisting in this vein, help me understand how MMA is a threat to Wing Chun, as that's the thrust of this thread.


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## Tez3 (Mar 4, 2009)

MMA isn't a threat to any art, people go for styles they feel are suited to them, for example I'm not nearly supple enough for Capoiera so MMA hasn't taken me away from that. In karate I've heard people say that if you are a big chap go for Shotokan, if you are smaller go for Wado Ryu as each suits these people. people who feel Whin Chun is suited to them will go for it. I've got into MMA because as I got older I was slowing in standup and I found the grappling part to be easier ( well relatively lol) and I didn't have to do so much stand up.
The point about MMA is the first word MIXED, thats where the story lies. It's different styles mixed together so you can compete in the ring/cage/mats. 
I'm going to go and have a nice cup of tea now, I expect you chaps to have stopped arguing about MMA *versus anything* and start a nice thread about how much we love martial arts before I get back!


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## Nolerama (Mar 4, 2009)

I don't think it's generally harm, but in terms of One vs. One technique, I think MMA has soured some faces.

It's all about functionality. Plain and simple. Function before form.

And that might ruffle some feathers. It's not necessarily harm. However, taking a WC class a few times, a tai chi class in college, and a number of other arts in the past, I'm happy that it's not a terrible crime to call certain techniques by other names. Some of those other classes had me scolded, corrected, and "educated" on the history/reason for said tech.

MMA might also ruffle a few feathers to other MA instructors who teach technique, but can't use that technique in sparring/fighting situations to their best advantage, and end up losing in a MMA setting. That's a fault with the practitioner, not the art.

As far as I can see, MMA offers truth on the mat/ring/cage, and technique that will work for for that particular practitioner, his or her body type, at that particular time.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 4, 2009)

Nolerama said:


> MMA might also ruffle a few feathers to other MA instructors who teach technique, but can't use that technique in sparring/fighting situations to their best advantage, and end up losing in a MMA setting. That's a fault with the practitioner, not the art.


I think that this is where the largest amount of friction developes between MMA and TMA. I think to a great extent, you have an oranges to tangerines comparison.

If you train in a TMA, you will (hopefully) learn techniques that will enable you to survive a violent attack against a mugger/kidnapper/rapist/general bad guy. You get into good enough shape to execute these techniques without pulling anything and without falling on your face

Some take it a step further and engage in tournaments. These are often point tournaments and do not allow a full range of grappling, or are limited to grappling only.

Then there are guys and gals who train for MMA competition. MMA competition has a broader rule set than a Karate or Judo tournament, and often the competitors train more like modern athletes than the typical martial artist does.

Needless to say, if your world is the first or second category, unless you are simply an awesome fighter who can easily adapt and who trains very, very hard, you'll be at a severe disadvantage when stepping into an MMA competition. You'll be unused to the rule set, probably not conditioned in the same way as your competition, and you will likely not be familiar with many techniques outside of those you know in your core art. 

Needless to say, when such a person competes and loses, it adds fuel to the MMA beats TMA arguement. I don't believe that either beats either; there is a lot of cross over, but an MMA tournament is very different than what one trains for in a TMA dojo.  Could a TMA practitioner become competative in MMA?  Sure.  But learn the rule set, familiarize yourself with the techniques that you'll face, and train to counter them.  That and be prepared to eat some humble pie while you bring yourself up to speed..... just as you would when you start a brand new art and are a beginner.  MMA is a very different animal than the dojo setting.  

Kind of like the difference between the Baja and a police chase. Both involve cars, but the Baja will demand a very different skill set than a police chase. The Baja will require being able to drive in differing terrain, off of pavement, and you will be constantly performing at your best level to win. A police chase is comparatively short and requires the officer to apprehend his opponent, not just out drive them. The officer must do so without endangering civilians and does not have the opportunity to choose the circumstances of the chase and may be getting shot at.

Could a police officer take his cruiser to the baja and win? No. The car wouldn't survive. Does that make the Baja driver inherently better than the police officer? No. They each have different goals and objectives, and each is best at what they do. 

Anyway, hows that for a long winded analogy?

Daniel


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## searcher (Mar 4, 2009)

Tez3 is right, MMA is a venue for testing your skillset against somebody else with a different skillset.

Yes, it could be said that it is evolving into a seperate art. But nobody has called it such, as far as I know. Is there a problem with that? No, not really. It has really given way to less people saying they have created a new style and they say they train/teach MMA, not JoeBob's Kakungdo. 


I am not sure how this thread turned into a versus, but that is not the intent of the OP. We are all sorry if a particular style has not fared well in the MMA world. Find out why and fix it.


*Back on topic please*.


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## bowser666 (Mar 4, 2009)

searcher said:


> I am not sure how this thread turned into a versus, but that is not the intent of the OP. We are all sorry if a particular style has not fared well in the MMA world. Find out why and fix it.
> 
> 
> *Back on topic please*.



This is the point that people keep missing. Alot of TMA styles are not meant for Sport Fighting. They are meant for self defense and for survival in the real world. Where there is no octagon, or referee , or rules.............

It is like trying to force a round shape into a square shaped hole. It doesn't work and wasn't meant to be. I honestly don't know why this vs debate continues  to come out in alot of threads. Keep beating the dead horse I suppose...................


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## MJS (Mar 4, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Are you allowed to wear shoes in MMA ?
> What type of shoes are they ?
> And if you wear shoes are you still allowed to kick with the heel ?


 
Actually, in the recent events, unless I'm missing it, I think everyone may be barefoot, however, in UFC 6 we saw Tank wearing wrestling shoes, as well as Dan Severn.  

As for the heel kicks...I'm assuming that you're talking about what Royce used to do when he had people in his guard?  If so, I havent seen that much anymore.


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## mook jong man (Mar 4, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Trapping isn't against the rules, either. I'd be interested in seeing if it works. I've heard many comparisons to BJJ groundwork (particularly from guard) and the skills/techniques for trapping. The best grapplers will, when on the bottom, never stay flat. Rather, their head is up off the mat, their shoulders and hips are moving, and they're tying up their opponents' arms and head and controlling them.
> 
> Come on, dude. Why are you trying to make this about Wing Chun? Instead of persisting in this vein, help me understand how MMA is a threat to Wing Chun, as that's the thrust of this thread.


 
I don't think it is a threat to it , the thing is that Wing Chun attracts a whole different crowd of people in my experience . 

They are people that just want to train their 3 nights a week or what ever for self defence and have no interest whatsoever in competition they also want to have a physical and intellectual pursuit that they can enjoy till they are old and grey . 

They also would probably not be at all interested in the gruelling conditioning that would be needed to compete in MMA competitions , they just want to have enough fitness to protect themself and their family in the street.

The other type of people which are usually young athletic males who might be slightly aggressive tend not to be attracted to Wing Chun because we stand funny and use these funny little straight punches it just does not look cool in their mind . 

In my experience they also find the repetitive and to them tedious nature of the training boring and they tend to leave very quickly and go to other arts that emphasise a competitive aspect such as Muay Thai , Boxing , Grappling ,etc . 

Hence due to the reasons I outlined above we would have a very small pool of young athletic talent to choose from to represent us properly in MMA compared to other styles who are just brimming with young athletic talent.

 Hopefully in the future this will change , as I hear that in England there is a Sifu named Alan Orr who is training his Wing Chun men specifically for MMA competition , I believe they are called the Iron Wolves so finally we might be able to have well trained  people that can represent the system properly in the cage . 

So in closing no I don't think MMA has harmed Wing Chun , the schools that teach strictly self defence will continue and there is likely to be a growth in schools that teach self defence as well a modified Wing Chun for MMA type competition.

 I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it but I do believe at some point it will come.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 4, 2009)

Here's the thing everybody misses.

"MMA" Isn't a style. It's a CONCEPT, and is not a new one, just repopularized under a new name at this particular time in history.


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## Steve (Mar 4, 2009)

Because Bjj and MMA don't involve dedication, repitition and all the rest.  Seriously.  I'm begging you to stop.  You're generalizing about something about which you clearly know very little.     





mook jong man said:


> I don't think it is a threat to it , the thing is that Wing Chun attracts a whole different crowd of people in my experience .
> 
> They are people that just want to train their 3 nights a week or what ever for self defence and have no interest whatsoever in competition they also want to have a physical and intellectual pursuit that they can enjoy till they are old and grey .
> 
> ...


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## LordOfWu (Mar 4, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Here's the thing everybody misses.
> 
> "MMA" Isn't a style. It's a CONCEPT, and is not a new one, just repopularized under a new name at this particular time in history.



I agree up to a point, but I think it's evolving into a style specific to a type of competition.  I am sure you have all been in TMA schools that focus on competitions, where kata or sparring, and it impact their focus on the 'T' part of TMA and also sometimes on effective self defense.

I have seen schools opening that are MMA schools, and all they focus on is MMA techniques.  I think that the evolution of MA is creating a new style, and I don't think this has a negative effect on other MA styles, it just adds a new option.  It's all in the goals of the person looking for a school or style.


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## mook jong man (Mar 5, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Because Bjj and MMA don't involve dedication, repitition and all the rest. Seriously. I'm begging you to stop. You're generalizing about something about which you clearly know very little.


 
Ok I admit Wing Chun  is my game and I am out of my depth when it comes to talking about Bjj and MMA .
 If you want to know anything about Wing Chun I will be on the Wing Chun forum , at this point I will take my leave of this thread and bail out.
Have a happy discussion.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 5, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Here's the thing everybody misses.
> 
> "MMA" Isn't a style. It's a CONCEPT, and is not a new one, just repopularized under a new name at this particular time in history.




No, it's both.

The "style" came from the concept


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 5, 2009)

Andrew Green said:


> No, it's both.
> 
> The "style" came from the concept


 

In what sense, like that the rules have become standardized and the techniques/strategies used in the events have become standardized enough that it's reasonable to expect that "everyone" knows and is likely to do "X" in "Y" situation?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 5, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> In what sense, like that the rules have become standardized and the techniques/strategies used in the events have become standardized enough that it's reasonable to expect that "everyone" knows and is likely to do "X" in "Y" situation?


I would say yes.  

Not a literal everyone, but a specific rule set, regardless of the competition, will have the general effect of keeping the techniques most effective in that set and discarding the ones that are not useful within that rule set, establishing an informally codified pool of techniques.

Different fighters will focus on different parts of this technique set, but in a competition with specific rules, everyone is pulling from the same pool of techniques after a certain point.

Daniel


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## BrandonLucas (Mar 5, 2009)

I don't see MMA hurting TMA...not in regards to the concept, anyway.

However, there are MMA fanboys out there that will trash talk anything under the sun that is not BJJ, Muay Thai, or Boxing.  As opposed to taking whatever is valid from as many TMA's as they can, many of these fan boys only rely on what others tell them is effective...they don't really try to find out for themselves.

IMO, it's the *fan boys* that hurt TMA...and there are fan boys on both sides of the fence.  It always stars with one guy bad-mouthing the other guy's style, and about how the training isn't effect for x situation, and bla bla bla...and quite honestly, this has been going on long before MMA became popular at all.

Anyone ever hear of the old "my kung fu is better than your kung fu" argument?  Same concept.

I would advise anyone that is interested in any aspect of fighting...whether it's sport or self defense...to cross train in as many different styles as you possibly can.  It helps to round you out as a fighter in general.

And basically, that's what MMA is all about...mixing effective techniques from different MA's to allow the person training to become a more effective fighter.

The one big draw back that I see is that people alot of times mix up MMA and *sport* MMA....and there is a difference.  With sport MMA, you are training more for, well, the sport, and the rules that are involved in the sport.  With MMA in general, you train in *mixed martial arts*, with no real specific ruleset, and the goal would be for self defense.

Also, while you do mostly see *sport* MMA fighters using Muay Thai, BJJ, and Boxing, there are others out there that use other MA's.

Basically, if the fan boys out there would STFU, then I don't really think there would even be an issue.

But that's my .02.


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## kroh (Mar 5, 2009)

BrandonLucas said:
			
		

> IMO, it's the *fan boys* that hurt TMA...



This is very true on both sides of the coin.  Not only do the trash talkers from the MMA stuff think they are all that and a bag of donuts... We also have TMA fanboys that are just as bad.  The point of the matter is that we all stand to learn a lot from each other if we just take the blinders off and use an open mind policy.  

No one is an immortal bad ***.  Your fancy double leg takedown, thigh crushing kick, or irimi nage is useless against a guy with a firearm.  Look what happened to Alex Gong back in the day.  

Like I said a few posts ago... I think MMA is good for not just martial arts, but for people in general because it is getting people off of the couch and into the gym.  

Some one I know who never did martial arts and who would never have done FMA's or Kempo, signed up for an MMA class and loves it.  When I asked him how he liked it he said, "I like it becuase it's just lots of effort and no ceremony.  I don't know how you guys do it in all that kimono stuff..."  Little does he know I bribed the teacher with a coffee to let me fight him next week...

Thanks for the minute, 
Walt


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## MJS (Mar 5, 2009)

BrandonLucas said:


> I don't see MMA hurting TMA...not in regards to the concept, anyway.
> 
> However, there are MMA fanboys out there that will trash talk anything under the sun that is not BJJ, Muay Thai, or Boxing. As opposed to taking whatever is valid from as many TMA's as they can, many of these fan boys only rely on what others tell them is effective...they don't really try to find out for themselves.
> 
> ...


 


kroh said:


> This is very true on both sides of the coin. Not only do the trash talkers from the MMA stuff think they are all that and a bag of donuts... We also have TMA fanboys that are just as bad. The point of the matter is that we all stand to learn a lot from each other if we just take the blinders off and use an open mind policy.
> 
> No one is an immortal bad ***. Your fancy double leg takedown, thigh crushing kick, or irimi nage is useless against a guy with a firearm. Look what happened to Alex Gong back in the day.
> 
> ...


 
I agree.  99.9% of the bashing takes place from the nutriders, or keyboard warriors who've probably never set foot on a mat, other than what they dream about.  I've said it before....both TMA and MMA can benefit from one another.  Of course, the fanboys are not limited to just MMA....they're in every art.  I mean, all it takes is just a few minutes on this forum or any other, and I'd bet I could find a half dozen or so people who think that their art is the 'bomb' and nothing comes close to it.  Sadly, those people are in the same pool as the nutriders, because they're under this impression that what Sensei, Sifu, or Master says, goes.  I beg to differ.  And sure, nobody wants to admit shortcomings, but hey, ya know what....its a fact of life.  I'm sure if we picked 5 arts, we could find at least one thing that was lacking in a certain area.


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## Tez3 (Mar 5, 2009)

http://www.blaenau-gwent.gov.uk/PRINT/12417.htm

Thought you'd find this interesting, young offender finds MMA. He has his first fight on 14th March, it's a positive story. The people who train him are good lads from the valleys! they've said he's training 6 days a week and staying out of trouble.

btw the 'funny' writing beside the English is Welsh.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 5, 2009)

So it's like English without vowels. Ok.


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## Ronin74 (Mar 6, 2009)

First off, I want to say this was a great thread to start. I have to admit that it's been growing so fast that I stopped reading at about page 4 or 5, and it's already at page 10. That said, here's my two cents.

I don't think MMA has done any lasting harm to martial arts (but I think it might have done some). If anything it added a small dose of reality to otherwise traditional forms of training. When I got my first taste of the empty-hand translations of FMA, my initial reaction was of being impressed because of how the attacks were countered in a very decisive manner. However, our teacher added an extra element into the training (this happened during a worksop/seminar). He had as throwing more "technical" attacks, such as clean crisp punches, as opposed to the haymakers we're taight to defend against, or the punching arm left hanging out so we could practice our counter.

The result? It showed us that in reality, these attacks might not come with just more speed or power, but may have some solid technique behind it. In that vein, I think MMA has actually brought to light in more traditional arts, the importance of being able to defend against more realistic attacks.

Another thing that I think it helped bring to light was conditioning. I don't know if I could ever say enough about how important it is, but in my experience, it was a lot of the more "traditional" schools that didn't stress the importance of having a sound body to go with a sound mind. When I first did Kenpo, our warm-ups consisted of doing a few basic punches to get the body temeperature level up, followed by stretching. Our "strength training" consisted of doing JUST push-ups and sit-ups, and ONLY on sparring days (maybe that's why we never did so well in tournaments... lol.)

When I tried Capoeira, the warm-up consisted of us doing some jogging mixed in with coordination drills, such as skipping while touching your foot to your opposite hand, walking in an arch position, and high knees. Then we stretched. If it was a warm day, we headed out to the track across the street, and got in some slight jogging. Now this was all before the actual class. From what I've heard, the typical regimine for many people involved in MMA consists of similar drills and other forms of conditioning- and this is outside of their training for the ring. So in that sense, MMA has probably helped, more than hurt martial arts.

Now, do I think it's hurt it on some level? I'd have to say yes. I don't agree with the pre-fight trash-talking. Whether it's for the media or to get a psychological advantage, that banter can make martial artists look like chest-beating cavemen. Also the glitz and glamour that inevitably go with MMA (as well as other sports) can sometime blur the goals that more traditional schools set as a standard. When I did Kenpo, so many of the students put so much of an emphasis on winning the tournaments, that you wouldn't see a lot of them in the regular classes, or if you did, they trained with a lackluster effort. As far as MMA in concerned- and this is assuming that anything with the words "martial arts" involved means being dedicated to maintaining a sense of discipline, balance and bettering one's self- it's a sport where the material prizes can compromise integrity.

It's not to say that it's wrong. Personally, I wouldn't mind taking home a nice paycheck to help out the family, for going out there and testing myself. However, I recall an episode of The Ultimate Fighter were a future UFC fighter said one of the reasons he wanted to win was so he could meet women and be famous. And while that is one person's goal, it's still not the aim you'd expect of more traditional arts.

I guess the best analogy I could make is comparing Miyamoto Musashi, and many of the MMA fighters today. Musashi (and this is according to popular legend) sought to master himself by way of perfecting his skills in swordsmanship. He didn't seek to beat other fighters for fame, but rather sought to test his ability against others who were said to have very credible prowess with the sword. Musashi's quest earned him the nickname of "The Sword Saint"- not a nickname he chose, but one given to him by others. Despite all that, Musashi's aim never wavered, which was to seek perfection in his art. In contrast, we have a lot of MMA fighters chasing belts and titles, or wanting to "smash" or go "to the death" with other fighters. The self-perfection of traditional arts vs. the trophies and titles of MMA.


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## Tez3 (Mar 6, 2009)

So TMA people never tried to make a living? they don't sign people up to binding contracts, have BB clubs, extra sparring classes, sell their own kit, sell compulsory dvds and books, hold seminars etc to make money? The MMA guys were at least honest in what they wanted. No one is forced to like their aspirations but they are up front about it. they are also working for it not just getting people to put their hands in their pockets.


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## Ronin74 (Mar 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> So TMA people never tried to make a living? they don't sign people up to binding contracts, have BB clubs, extra sparring classes, sell their own kit, sell compulsory dvds and books, hold seminars etc to make money? The MMA guys were at least honest in what they wanted. No one is forced to like their aspirations but they are up front about it. they are also working for it not just getting people to put their hands in their pockets.


I think that's more in line with the schools and gyms as a business. Traditional martial arts instructors and MMA trainers are in their respective fields to make a career out of training and passing on skills to others, while of course making a living. As far as being honest, that's more subject to the individual. It's like the difference between two students in the same school/gym. One person may want to learn how to protect themself, the other may be trying to start a career in fighting. Nobody is knocking either of those intents.

Now if you mean by a school or gym's integrity, that's unfortunately a widespread problem in both traditional martial arts, and MMA. Often times, money is the goal and not the betterment of the people involved.

Please keep in mind that this is all just my opinion- and in my previous post, you can see I've noted how it's helped and in some cases hurt traditional martial arts- but when martial arts or martial artists (traditional or mixed) start being recoginzed by how brutal a fighter can be, or how flashy the lifestyle is, or the women they can pick-up, it takes away from the less material benefits that come from them, such as committment to an ideal, self-discipline, and the willingness to challenge how well one deals with adversity. That's the harm.

We can go as far as to split hairs here, because both traditional arts and MMA have people who help and hurt the integrity of their respective fields, but that would probably just add about 20 more pages to this thread. It comes down to a what the person values:

Is it about the journey or the destination?
Is it about the gains or the gifts?
Is it about the self-recognition or the recognition from others?
Is it about being a good martial artist or being a good fighter?
There's nothing wrong with making a living as a fighter (or a trainer). There's nothing wrong with being a world champion. There's nothing wrong with being admired for one's own accomplishments. I've even said in my prior post that I'd love to test myself under those some conditions. I'd see it as the chance to see if what I've learned is applicable to real-time (not necessarily reality-based) hand-to-hand combat. It would be a chance to see if I can only repeat a drill, or can I think on my feet. And if it helped bring in enough money to help my family, that would be a great bonus.

However, when martial arts practitioners make money, power and respect the goals, rather than the results, it can hurt the integrity of the person and the art. In the case of MMA, it's a sport that's received world-wide recognition. As the fastest-growing sport, it would be difficult to find someone who has never heard of it. Even traditional martial artists had to give it respect for helping to bring their arts some recognition. For that very reason, they're under the microscope of scrutiny more than the people who compete in the local karate tournaments.

By that same token, when the participants, who are in the public eye, talk trash and voice more material aspirations to be their goals, it hurts martial arts as a whole. It makes fighters look petty, it feeds the misconception that martial arts is about hurting others, and in some cases, it conveys the message that winning justifies reckless attitudes, such as pre-fight interviews where some- but not all- fighters (champions included) seemingly speak without thinking about what example they could be setting to their fans.


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## Tez3 (Mar 6, 2009)

I'd disagree with MMA being well known, in my experience it simply isn't. It's very much a minority sport and I constantly find myself having to explain what it is, even here on MT.
The question is..are sportsmen and women responible for how others behave? Are they there to be role models? MMA fighters are martial artists yes but they are also sports people, athletes. Like it or not 'trash talking' is part of the hype to get bums on seats at fight nights, it's actually rare to find a fighter who actually believes what he says, its part of the sales pitch. It's been common in boxing for years and you'll find it in football and cricket as well. In fact cricket is worse because the trash talk -'sledging' actually happens on the pitch against the opposition.
I don't think the trash talk and the hype actually hurts martial arts, the people to whom it matters know the difference and why it's there, the people to whom it doesn't matter, don't matter anyay!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> So TMA people never tried to make a living? they don't sign people up to binding contracts, have BB clubs, extra sparring classes, sell their own kit, sell compulsory dvds and books, hold seminars etc to make money?


Say it aint so!

Seriously, this is one of the very legitimate criticisms that is directed at TMA. If this sort of thing is brought to heel as a result of the popularity of MMA, then I will consider MMA to be the savior of TMA.

Not only do I feel that MMA has not harmed martial arts, but I feel that it has brought a large measure of integrity back to it. 

The practical functionality of one's training is suddenly in the front of student's minds before they ever go to train. People who regularly watch MMA and decide to go take a martial art know what well executed techniques are supposed to look like and the end result that they're supposed to have. 

They know that you don't throw chi-balls, roll around like a monkey, or any of the other nonsense that the general public has long thought to be part and parcel of the martial arts, thanks in great part to movies and television.

And they know that a piece of cloth around your waist is not what makes you good.

Lastly, when people find out that a particular MMA competitor has a background in a TMA, it brings people to that TMA. 

In the end, once you cut through the fanboys and commercial hype and media misinformation, TMA and MMA work together, a synergy. Each one feeds and benefits the other. 

I don't see where that is at all harmful.

Daniel


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## BrandonLucas (Mar 6, 2009)

Ronin74 said:


> I think that's more in line with the schools and gyms as a business. Traditional martial arts instructors and MMA trainers are in their respective fields to make a career out of training and passing on skills to others, while of course making a living. As far as being honest, that's more subject to the individual. It's like the difference between two students in the same school/gym. One person may want to learn how to protect themself, the other may be trying to start a career in fighting. Nobody is knocking either of those intents.
> 
> Now if you mean by a school or gym's integrity, that's unfortunately a widespread problem in both traditional martial arts, and MMA. Often times, money is the goal and not the betterment of the people involved.
> 
> ...


 
The hard part is seperating the individual participants from the respective arts.

What I mean is that you're saying that you don't agree with trash talking from the MMA competitors before a match...and I 100% agree....but not all MMA competitors trash talk before a fight.  If you watch alot of the pre-fight interviews, many of the fighters are just giving you what they think the fight is gonig to consist of, what they've worked on, what they know their opponent has worked on, etc.  And, the vast majority of the time, the interviews that play out like that usually end with each fighter showing the other a great deal of respect.

A great example of what I'm talking about is the last UFC that came on, when Joe "Daddy" Stevenson lost to Diego Sanchez...Joe Stevenson is a great example of awesome sportsmanship in MMA.  He got caught by several clean shots, and on 2 occaisions, actually congratulated Diego during the match for landing the shots.  He wasn't trash talking at all in the interview, and just had a great attitude in general about the fight.

The same goes for TMA.  I've been to several tournements where my opponent was talking smack when we were being bowed in for the match to begin...which, technically speaking, should have counted off points for them, but for whatever reason, it never happens that way....but the point is that I've also been in several matches where we shook hands before and after the match.

What I'm saying is that it's very hard to seperate the style from the stylist...but to be fair in the discussion, that's what needs to be done.

My take on it from that angle...

*Sport  *MMA, in its current state, tends to focus more on physical rewards, like you were talking about.  Belts to be won, titles to be won, purses to be earned, etc.  Beyond that, *mainstream sport MMA* barely focuses on the martial art aspect of the fight at all...orgs like the UFC and Pride.  They tend to focus more on the fighters themselves, their back stories, any previous grudges, etc.  Now, they will follow their training, but it's not really talking about the martial art side of the training...it's more of the conditioning that's followed.

Just watch an episode of The Ultimate Fighter...the whole problem with the mainstream side of MMA is that to break into the mainstream, the show has to be billed as a "reality show", complete with the drama and bs that always follows that crap.  So not much emphasis is placed on the training...rather, it shows "games" for the fighters to compete in, and then shows the fight at the end of the show...all of this between watching a bunch of guys live in a house with nothing to do but train, eat, and sleep.

So, in order for MMA to become mainstream and popular, it had to "sell out" in a sense.

MMA, as a whole, differs from TMA in the same way you were talking about before...the training.  MMA concentrates far more on conditioning and actual "realistic" situations than most TMA's do...but that's not to say that all TMA's train differently than MMA.  But in most TMA schools in present time, conditioning is not high on the priority list for the cirriculum...and I'm actually a great example of that.  

I'm out of shape...granted, I'm working on getting back into shape, and pushing myself in TKD class certainly helps...but if I were training in MMA, I would actually have a seperated regimine on conditioning and fighting...it would be treated as 2 different aspects of training.  So, basically, in TKD class, I work on my basics and work on the cirriculum within the art, and try to work on conditioning in my spare time...

So, yeah, just look for the differences in the styles more than the stylists...it's a hard thing to seperate, but it's necessary to get a good look at the differences.


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## BrandonLucas (Mar 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I'd disagree with MMA being well known, in my experience it simply isn't. It's very much a minority sport and I constantly find myself having to explain what it is, even here on MT.
> The question is..are sportsmen and women responible for how others behave? Are they there to be role models? MMA fighters are martial artists yes but they are also sports people, athletes. Like it or not 'trash talking' is part of the hype to get bums on seats at fight nights, it's actually rare to find a fighter who actually believes what he says, its part of the sales pitch. It's been common in boxing for years and you'll find it in football and cricket as well. In fact cricket is worse because the trash talk -'sledging' actually happens on the pitch against the opposition.
> I don't think the trash talk and the hype actually hurts martial arts, the people to whom it matters know the difference and why it's there, the people to whom it doesn't matter, don't matter anyay!


 
I guess it matters where you are located as to how well known MMA is...over here, in the US, it's huge...UFC is a household name.  But I have noticed how they are trying to have more events on your side of the pond...the only issue I have with that is that they seem to only do that when Michael Bisping is fighting.  

I don't understand why they can't just have events over there anyway, and have like a division of UFC for Europe, and then have them all compete like a Super Bowl kind of event...that would be pretty sweet...

And that's my idea, thank you very much...so if any of you see that start to come out...you know how thought of it.


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## Steve (Mar 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> .
> The question is..are sportsmen and women responible for how others behave? Are they there to be role models?


Okay.  Side note here from my dad/grown up side, not from my MMA fanboy side, but we are ALL role models to anyone who knows and respects us.  Period.  Some of us have smaller spheres of influence than others, but this idea that they are athletes not role models, in any sport, is completely bogus.  Athlete or not, we are all role models.  The question is, are we good ones or bad ones?   

I think that, as anyone's sphere of influence grows, their impact as a role model grows, too.  And THAT needs to be addressed.  Shows like TUF, the bloody, hyper aggressive, kill 'em all marketing schemes aren't good for kids.  This kind of vibe does translate to the fighters who will ultimately affect kids for whom they are role models.  

Contrast Melvin Guillard to Lyoto Machida.  Or Tito Ortiz to Damian Maia.  

It's just like the footballers (that's soccer if you live in a civilized country like the US! ) in... well, the rest of the world.  Or here in the States, the basketballers, pro baseball players or whatever.  They are all role models, whether they like it or not.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I'd disagree with MMA being well known, in my experience it simply isn't. It's very much a minority sport and I constantly find myself having to explain what it is, even here on MT.
> The question is..are sportsmen and women responible for how others behave? Are they there to be role models?


Yes and no and no.

There is no question that people are influenced by their viewing habbits.  People are responsible for how they act, not the folks on television.  But at the same time, if you're in the media, you are responsible for you own behavior and for taking into account how you're perceived by those who watch you.

I'm not personally fond of trash talk, and if anything, it will actually keep me out of the seats, though I am probably not the demographic that promoters market to.  I can go to an elementary school playground and listen to trashtalk.  I can turn on Rush Limbaugh and Howard Stern and hear trashtalk (I don't, but I could).  

I expect better from those involved in the martial arts, be it on a competition level or in a traditional setting.

Are sports figures there to be role models?

That isn't why they're personally there, no.  But unless you're a parrent, you don't choose to be role model.  It is put upon you.  Anyone with an audience; celebrities, be they athletes or actors or teachers in a private studio or a regular academic school are all aware of this.  The general public is very aware of this.  

Anyone who tries to play this card to write off socially unacceptable behavior is either feigning ignorance or is willfully ignorant.  

And there are plenty of traditional instructors who would do well to change their own behavior.  Lets not forget that it wasn't an MMA competitor who threw a tantrum at the olympics and shoved a judge then kicked the reff in the mouth.  

I think that when criticisms of MMA are posed by those of us who practice a TMA, we need to look very carefully at our own habits and methodologies.  Oftimes, the very criticisms leveled against MMA by the traditional folks sometimes apply equally, if not more so to TMA. 

There are plenty of trash talking, know-it-all self important masters out there, and I daresay that TMA has more trash talkers than MMA.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 6, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Okay. Side note here from my dad/grown up side, not from my MMA fanboy side, but we are ALL role models to anyone who knows and respects us. Period. Some of us have smaller spheres of influence than others, but this idea that they are athletes not role models, in any sport, is completely bogus. Athlete or not, we are all role models. The question is, are we good ones or bad ones?
> 
> I think that, as anyone's sphere of influence grows, their impact as a role model grows, too. And THAT needs to be addressed. Shows like TUF, the bloody, hyper aggressive, kill 'em all marketing schemes aren't good for kids. This kind of vibe does translate to the fighters who will ultimately affect kids for whom they are role models.
> 
> ...


You said it better and with less bandwidth than I did.

Daniel


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## Tez3 (Mar 6, 2009)

Good points!
The last UFC here a couple of weeks ago didn't have Bisping fighting and a lot of the American fighters were relatively unknown to us. I believe there's a UFC in Germany coming up, there's also been one in Ireland. UFC is maybe the biggest promotion here but isn't the most popular really. The thing about MMA here is that the local shows do well because they have local fighters on and they have great support. The average ticket price for shows here is £25, within mosts price range but the cheapest seats for UFC are up from £100, plus travelling costs and maybe staying overnight.
A lot of Americans also complained about the reffing and the way fights went which is they way we do it here. Dan Hardy one of ours, received a fair bit of hate email from American fans too. 

As I said before most of our fighters while they receive a purse and fight pro rules are amateurs in every other sense of the word, they all have day jobs and train in their spare time. the sport while getting more popular still hasn't the money in it to allow fighters to go full time yet. It's probably one reason we don't have the trash talking very often ( it may be that we can't take it seriously being a nation of born hecklers lol), there's not much hype around. that may change as there's to be a TUF with USA v UK in it. Of course you'll need subtitles as you did with Bisping! I'm not sure how popular it will be here if it's followed the recent pattern.

I think whatever the martial art or sport for that matter there's going to be good and bad role models, in football (ok soccer) David Beckham tries hard and mostly succeeds to be a good one but just yesterday another very well known soccer player was arrested. Hes already been all over the media for cheating on his wife a pop star. This is a sensible link, you should see the tabloids.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7925963.stm

Sad to say he's not the only one, another is in prison for drunk driving and killing two children when his car swerved out of control, I could go on. these guys earn upwards of £82k a week! In MMA here a normal fighter will be lucky to get £300 once every few months when he fights.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Good points!
> Sad to say he's not the only one, another is in prison for drunk driving and killing two children when his car swerved out of control, I could go on. these guys earn upwards of £82k a week! In MMA here a normal fighter will be lucky to get £300 once every few months when he fights.


In general, the more stupidly paid a celebrity is, the less in touch they are with reality.  They become shielded from the consequences of their actions to far too great a degree.  

Daniel


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## searcher (Mar 6, 2009)

A note on the fanboy thing-you guys should see all of the fanboys that come into the gym to workout and they are decked out had-to-toe in Tapout gear.     


And not a one of them train in ANY MA or are even pursuing training.   These guys walk around like they are the baddest thing since Ali.       Hilarious!!!!



At the very elast MMA has helped the economy with sales of gear and videos, let alone the number of people paying $$$$$ for MMA training.    I just heard this week that a new MMA gym is opening in a town not to far from my home.    But there is a problem.    They are hiring a guy to teach JJ, that has little to no formal training in JJ, outside of the time he has been bouncing from school to school.     And that he watches a bunch of UFC shows.     That is the problem right there.


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## Tez3 (Mar 6, 2009)

searcher said:


> A note on the fanboy thing-you guys should see all of the fanboys that come into the gym to workout and they are decked out had-to-toe in Tapout gear.
> 
> 
> And not a one of them train in ANY MA or are even pursuing training. These guys walk around like they are the baddest thing since Ali. Hilarious!!!!
> ...


 

You could always go along and join in for a session lol! the best thing about MMA in the UK at the moment is that when MMA clubs open up and they aren't very good they get found out very quickly. I guess when MMA gets to be hugely popular here that won't happen sadly. These people will want to put 'fighters' onto shows and thats where things will fall to pieces. word of mouth among promoters will make sure they don't get another fight. There will also be plenty of real fighters to point out how to train etc too.  If the people are genuine about fighting they'll soon find a reputable trainer to replace the rubbish one.


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## BrandonLucas (Mar 6, 2009)

searcher said:


> A note on the fanboy thing-you guys should see all of the fanboys that come into the gym to workout and they are decked out had-to-toe in Tapout gear.
> 
> 
> And not a one of them train in ANY MA or are even pursuing training. These guys walk around like they are the baddest thing since Ali. Hilarious!!!!
> ...


 
I'm not kidding here...

I was Wal-Mart the other day, and I swear I saw this 30 something guy, who was about 6 feet tall, wearing a Tapout shirt.  That's nothing spectacular, but the thing is that this guy had a gut that was hanging out underneath the shirt.  

And the best part of it all...I passed him on the book aisle...reading an MMA magizine...


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## Steve (Mar 6, 2009)

BrandonLucas said:


> I'm not kidding here...
> 
> I was Wal-Mart the other day, and I swear I saw this 30 something guy, who was about 6 feet tall, wearing a Tapout shirt. That's nothing spectacular, but the thing is that this guy had a gut that was hanging out underneath the shirt.
> 
> And the best part of it all...I passed him on the book aisle...reading an MMA magizine...


Of course, it's okay to be a fan.  Most of the guys who watch sports don't also play.  Some, maybe, but most guys who watch football haven't picked one up in years, if ever.


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## BrandonLucas (Mar 6, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Of course, it's okay to be a fan. Most of the guys who watch sports don't also play. Some, maybe, but most guys who watch football haven't picked one up in years, if ever.


 
That's true...

I guess it just annoys me to see Tapout merch out there this much...and I'm really not sure why exactly it annoys me...but it does.

Honestly, thinking about it, when people buy their merch, it puts money in the sponser's hands, and allows the MMA market to grow, so I guess I should be embracing it.

I dunno, though.  It's kind of like, to me, if I were to start seeing people running around with TKD blackbelt shirts on from Centruy...not that they're a martial artist, but they at least bought the shirt.  

Kind of in the same aspect as I'm sick to death of hearing Nickleback on the radio, and sick of them as a band...nothing particularly wrong with the music, even if it's not your taste...but they're all over the place.

I guess I'm just worried that it's going to flood the market and become over-exploited, the same as most other things do that become uber-popular.


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## Steve (Mar 6, 2009)

BrandonLucas said:


> That's true...
> 
> I guess it just annoys me to see Tapout merch out there this much...and I'm really not sure why exactly it annoys me...but it does.
> 
> ...


 I understand.  Personally, when brands like Fokai and Shoyoroll start leeching into the mainstream market, I'll feel the same way.  Or if someone wore a Koral or Atama t-shirt.  I know what you're saying.

But the above, like, I guess Century (although I don't really know much about the company) are more insider brands for guys who train.  TapOut is a commercial brand as much for the consumer as for the insider.  More so, probably.  I wouldn't be caught dead wearing a bunch of that TapOut stuff.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 6, 2009)

Not surprisingly Tapout's name seems to be mentioned in every WWE style promotion of MMA events.  

Daniel


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## Nolerama (Mar 6, 2009)

Whenever I see someone wearing a Tapout or Affliction shirt, I ask them if they train anywhere. Sometimes you can make a friend, talking about MMA and training. When you mention it to someone who doesn't train, then something goes "ding!" in their brains and it just might dawn on them:

"Hmm... Maybe I should get my butt into the gym, too... MMA is a possibility."

Tapout isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's just a brand that does its job: associates the wearer of its products with a growing, intensely physical sport. How is that bad?

Yes, wearing Tapout gear might get somone questioning your toughness. That's the exact same risk someone assumes when they wear a Cubs hat in St. Louis. I'm not a fan of wearing the t-shirts, but one of my training partners has the shin guards, which seem to be pretty sturdy and comfortable.


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## Ronin74 (Mar 6, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> They are all role models, whether they like it or not.


That's the point I was making. If it makes it easier, let's call them "public figures". Whether they intend to or not, like it or not, pro fighters are just like any other athlete in that they do become public figures in their sport (and sometimes beyond). How they conduct themselves in and out of the ring is something the media, as well as their fans, will be following. So if an athlete runs his or her mouth, and doesn't hold him or herself accountable for what they say, it conveys to their fans that it's okay. Likewise, if they show they are holding themselves accountable for their conduct, it sends the message that they're taking responsiblity for what they say and do.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 7, 2009)

Nolerama said:


> Tapout isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's just a brand that does its job: associates the wearer of its products with a growing, intensely physical sport. How is that bad?


It isn't.  I guess that it depends on what you think of their marketing.

I also don't think that their name being attached to WWE style promotions of MMA is bad; you advertise where your brand will be seen by the demographic you're trying to reach.

As for WWE style promotion, that isn't necesarilly 'bad' either.  The WWE is very, very good at marketing, so taking cues from them in that regard is actually a good thing.  

I do find that style of promotion to be a matter of taste.  Everyones' is different.  If you want to reach the demographic that that style of marketing appeals to, you've gotta speak their language.

Daniel


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## BrandonLucas (Mar 7, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> It isn't. I guess that it depends on what you think of their marketing.
> 
> I also don't think that their name being attached to WWE style promotions of MMA is bad; you advertise where your brand will be seen by the demographic you're trying to reach.
> 
> ...


 
It's actually funny you mention this...

Last night, I went to a "house show" for WWE...it was a Raw show...

All in all, I had a blast, just hanging out with a buddy of mine and his family, and I especially enjoyed the Diva's match at the beginning...

But, coincidentally, we saw this guy in line wearing an Affliction shirt.  So I asked him if he trained in the area, because I was looking for a gym myself...just making conversation.  He looked like he was in shape, so I figured maybe this guy will know.

His response..."Oh, yeah, I go to Gold's Gym right down the road from here, man...they got this indoor pool that will kill you."

So I told him that I didn't know Gold's Gym started having an actual MMA class.  I mean, I had heard of the Tae-bo classes and junk for cardio, but never an actual MMA trainer at the gym.  His response:

"MMA?  Oh, you mean like that stuff that comes on pay per view...shoot, no, man!!  We ain't tryin' to get kicked around!  We just wanna lift weights!"

When I told him that I figured he trained MMA because of the shirt, he tells me that he got it cause it looked cool.  He had never actually heard of Affliction before.  He thought it was "crazy *** rock band".

Maybe if the shirts had some hint that the company is related to MMA, I wouldn't have a problem with it.  But it's just a cool looking shirt to most guys around here.


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## Jaspthecat (Mar 8, 2009)

Not read the whole thread so aplogies if someone has made this point already.

I love MMA and watching UFC etc the only thing that concerns me is that MMA (on the surface at least) seems to glorify and promote indiscriminate violence through the imagery used on the clothing advertising etc.

eg Cage Rage, Tap Out, violent tendencies etc etc

MMA (in the UK at least) seems to be pulling a reputation that it's only practiced by nutters and hard men, this may note be the case entirely, but due to the image it's bound to draw these type of people in.

In this respect, it is damaging to the MA world as although MAs are tought so essentially you can defeat an aggressor, they also generally teach you respect and restraint.  This IMO, seems to be lacking in MMA, shame.


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## searcher (Mar 8, 2009)

Not that it is really hurting anything, but what happened to someone, somewhere wearing a Gi?

Are there rules against that now?


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## Guardian (Mar 8, 2009)

I don't know if I have responded on this or not and I don't plan on reading 170+ responses to find out LOL.

My simple answer is no, MA is MA whether it's Traditional, MMA or whatever form it takes, it's still MA period in my view.


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## matt.m (Mar 8, 2009)

Ya know I have to agree with this statement.  Aikido, Hapkido, Karate, TKD, Judo, Jap. JJ, and BJJ all wear gi's.  It is a time honored tradition.  It is the "Prescribed uniform" if you will.  I mean gee in the Marines we had a uniform we had to wear and that was it.

I always thought that if you were wearing a singlet or shorts and no shirt then it was wrestling.  Period end of story.

The big argument is "Ya can't pull off the same techniques gi and no gi."  I say that is crap, you can to......just a slight modification of the technique is all.  I have yet to see a throw done in MSK hapkido from the wrist as kuzushi that I don't teach in Judo from a Gi.  



searcher said:


> Not that it is really hurting anything, but what happened to someone, somewhere wearing a Gi?
> 
> Are there rules against that now?


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## BrandonLucas (Mar 9, 2009)

searcher said:


> Not that it is really hurting anything, but what happened to someone, somewhere wearing a Gi?
> 
> Are there rules against that now?


 
I don't know if they're against the rules or not, but...

I think it started being a trend, with the idea that it's easier to move and change position both standing and on the ground, and that it gives the opponent less of a weapon to use against the other opponent.  Kind of the same way that shoes are no longer worn in the ring.

Although, wearing a Gi would stop arguments from happening like the BJ Penn/Georges St. Pierre fight, where St. Pierre was accused of using vasoline on his back and shoulders to slide out of sub attempts on the ground.  It would also add a slight touch of realism to the fight, in that the fighters are wearing something on their upper body, which is more likely to be the case in a real situation.

But I honestly don't know if it's against the rules or not.  It would be nice to see.


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## jarrod (Mar 9, 2009)

searcher said:


> Not that it is really hurting anything, but what happened to someone, somewhere wearing a Gi?
> 
> Are there rules against that now?


 
it is currently illegal to wear a gi in any mma competition in america, which i think is unfortunate.  it was one of the concessions made in order to get mma sanctioned.  



matt.m said:


> Ya know I have to agree with this statement. Aikido, Hapkido, Karate, TKD, Judo, Jap. JJ, and BJJ all wear gi's. It is a time honored tradition. It is the "Prescribed uniform" if you will. I mean gee in the Marines we had a uniform we had to wear and that was it.
> 
> I always thought that if you were wearing a singlet or shorts and no shirt then it was wrestling. Period end of story.
> 
> The big argument is "Ya can't pull off the same techniques gi and no gi." I say that is crap, you can to......just a slight modification of the technique is all. I have yet to see a throw done in MSK hapkido from the wrist as kuzushi that I don't teach in Judo from a Gi.


 
largely the techniques are the same but there are some significant differences. the most obvious being that you lose all your lapel chokes!

i teach gi & no gi. wearing a gi frequently slows things down & gives you an opportunity to see openings you might miss when the action is faster. eventually people start seeing them no-gi as well. 

not wearing the gi forces you to be really, really tight on your techniques, especially once the sweat gets going. they each have their advantages, & training one way improves the other as well, imo.

jf


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 9, 2009)

jarrod said:


> it is currently illegal to wear a gi in any mma competition in america, which i think is unfortunate. it was one of the concessions made in order to get mma sanctioned.


Interesting.  Do you know the rationale behind this requirement for sanctioning?

Daniel


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## jarrod (Mar 9, 2009)

i don't; i _think_ it was just in the interest of uniformity.  kinda like how boxers aren't allowed to wear long pants.

jf


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## LordOfWu (Mar 9, 2009)

matt.m said:


> Ya know I have to agree with this statement.  Aikido, Hapkido, Karate, TKD, Judo, Jap. JJ, and BJJ all wear gi's.  It is a time honored tradition.  It is the "Prescribed uniform" if you will.  I mean gee in the Marines we had a uniform we had to wear and that was it.
> 
> I always thought that if you were wearing a singlet or shorts and no shirt then it was wrestling.  Period end of story.
> 
> The big argument is "Ya can't pull off the same techniques gi and no gi."  I say that is crap, you can to......just a slight modification of the technique is all.  I have yet to see a throw done in MSK hapkido from the wrist as kuzushi that I don't teach in Judo from a Gi.



I think many of the more modern MA are not as enamored with the gi.  If you look at Krav Maga, or no-gi jj, to name two I have seen.  I personally prefer training with a gi, but I don't think it's a mark of a TMA.  If you go back to MA that aren't Orient based, thinking Pankration, they pretty much went nude.  I think shorts and a rash guard are quite an improvement on that...and I for one am appreciative!


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## Andrew Green (Mar 10, 2009)

searcher said:


> Not that it is really hurting anything, but what happened to someone, somewhere wearing a Gi?
> 
> Are there rules against that now?



Yes



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Interesting.  Do you know the rationale behind this requirement for sanctioning?
> 
> Daniel



Fairness, there are also rules against grabbing clothing.


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## Ronin74 (Mar 10, 2009)

> I think shorts and a rash guard are quite an improvement on that...and I for one am appreciative!


Couldn't agree more. Except for the times where it might take away from the training (rarely), I think they should be allowed for TMA schools as well as MMA gyms.


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## MJS (Mar 10, 2009)

Its interesting regarding the use of a gi.  Looking back to the early days, Royce won many fights with the assistance of his gi.


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## thetruth (Mar 10, 2009)

MJS said:


> Its interesting regarding the use of a gi.  Looking back to the early days, Royce won many fights with the assistance of his gi.


 

and kimo's hair


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 10, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> It's probably one reason we don't have the trash talking very often ( it may be that we can't take it seriously being a nation of born hecklers lol), .


 
John Cleese could probably make a brilliant sketch about it 

Afaik, trash talking is strongly discouraged here (Belgium). Fighters are generally expected to remain polite, or at least not insult anyone. It would draw publicity, and it would bring negative publicity to the MA schools.
Not saying that it doesn't happen, but real trash talking is frowned upon.


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## Tez3 (Mar 10, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> John Cleese could probably make a brilliant sketch about it
> 
> Afaik, trash talking is strongly discouraged here (Belgium). Fighters are generally expected to remain polite, or at least not insult anyone. It would draw publicity, and it would bring negative publicity to the MA schools.
> Not saying that it doesn't happen, but real trash talking is frowned upon.


 

It is here really, also tbh we're not very good at it! At a weigh in recently the fighters were told to look 'fierce' etc and two opponents told to look at each other and make like they were going to kick off, it lasted a few seconds then both fighters burst out laughing, they couldn't do it!

Gis are allowed here, few wear them, it may give you an advantage but it may also give your opponent one.

I'd disagree that in the UK we are just getting a rep for mindless violence, the quality newspapers here taken an interest in people like Bisping and Dr. Rosi Sexton as well as other characters like the 'fighting preacher'.

The BBC commisioned a documentary on womens MMA last year which I've been involved in, the filming has finished and it will be realeased as soon as it's edited, such is the interest that the BBC has had it lengthened to 90 mins. As well as the women fighters ( including Lisa Higo who went to America, fought 3 times in one night and beat them all to get the belt!) it has Britains (and Europe as far as we know) first female MMA referee.... ooh, ooh, that'll be me!! Yep, reffing professional male fights!


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## Zero (Mar 10, 2009)

Kudos Tez3! Good effort to get that opportunity.


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## Zero (Mar 10, 2009)

MJS said:
			
		

> Its interesting regarding the use of a gi. Looking back to the early days, Royce won many fights with the assistance of his gi.


 
Yeah but as said by others the gi can also be a hindrance, look how it was used against Royce more recently(ish) by Sakuraba.

When I have fought in mma against opponents wearing gis I have found they are at the disadvantage.  My foundation MA was judo and I would never wear a full gi in an mma event, why present the additional choke-out and throw options that a gi affords (that one's rhetorical).


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## MJS (Mar 10, 2009)

thetruth said:


> and kimo's hair


 
LOL! Yeah, I forgot about that.


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## Tez3 (Mar 10, 2009)

Zero said:


> Yeah but as said by others the gi can also be a hindrance, look how it was used against Royce more recently(ish) by Sakuraba.
> 
> When I have fought in mma against opponents wearing gis I have found they are at the disadvantage. My foundation MA was judo and I would never wear a full gi in an mma event, *why present the additional choke-out and throw options that a gi affords* (that one's rhetorical).


 
thanks Zero! I'm waiting for photos to post up, scare you all lol! 

You have to be so careful about wearing a gi in the ring/cage, this is precisely why!


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## MJS (Mar 10, 2009)

Zero said:


> Yeah but as said by others the gi can also be a hindrance, look how it was used against Royce more recently(ish) by Sakuraba.
> 
> When I have fought in mma against opponents wearing gis I have found they are at the disadvantage. My foundation MA was judo and I would never wear a full gi in an mma event, why present the additional choke-out and throw options that a gi affords (that one's rhetorical).


 
I was just commenting on the rule of not being able to grab onto clothing.  Seems like it, like so many other things, worked for Royce for a short time, before it was countered.  

IMHO, I think its good to train both, as it makes for a more well rounded fighter.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 10, 2009)

BrandonLucas said:


> It's actually funny you mention this...
> 
> Last night, I went to a "house show" for WWE...it was a Raw show...
> 
> ...


Same with people wearing Oakley gear.  How many of those who wear Oakley shades have any clue that the company's claim to fame was orthopedic BMX bicycle handlebar grips?  They made (I assume still make) products for road bikes and mountain bikes as well.  I never wore Oakley gear, and few of the people that I have known who did wear it had any connction with competative cycling.  

No biggie.  The non competitors who buy sports gear, whatever the sport, help to keep the gear in production for those of us who do.  And who knows?  A small few may become interested in the sport as a result.

Either way, everyone wins.

Daniel


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## Steve (Mar 10, 2009)

It's funny, though, how companies will shift gears over time.  Personally, I wouldn't presume someone in an Affliction shirt trains in MMA or BJJ, just like TapOut.  I mentioned earlier that I consider those to be more commercial brands.  I mean, if you can buy them in the mall, they aren't targeting hard core fans.   Warrior Wear is another one that is pretty mainstream.  They may or may not, but I'd err to the "not" side. 

I would be surprised to see someone in a Fokai shirt who doesn't train, and of course any of the BJJ brands like Gameness, Koral, Keiko Raca and such.

As an aside, Oakley was bought out a few years ago.  Are they still in the business of making gear for competitive cycling?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 10, 2009)

I don't know.  I need to go to Revolution Cycles this week to purchase a shifter, so I'll take a look.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 13, 2009)

Sadly, I just saw this posted on Martial Arts Forum.  

Apparently, the founder of Tappout was killed.  Looks like he was struck by a drunk driver.  My prayers go out to his family and whoever the passenger was who was with him (hospitalized).

http://mma.fanhouse.com/2009/03/11/charles-lewis-mask-of-tapout-dies/

Daniel


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## Steve (Mar 13, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Sadly, I just saw this posted on Martial Arts Forum.
> 
> Apparently, the founder of Tappout was killed. Looks like he was struck by a drunk driver. My prayers go out to his family and whoever the passenger was who was with him (hospitalized).
> 
> ...


I read about this the day it happened.  I had heard he was racing a porsche when he lost control of his ferrari.  I wouldn't be surprised if they were both drunk.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 13, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> I read about this the day it happened. I had heard he was racing a porsche when he lost control of his ferrari. I wouldn't be surprised if they were both drunk.


Sad either way.  I posted a separate thread about in General MA, as it really isn't pertinant to this topic.  I just mentioned it here because Tapout has been part of our discussion on this thread.

Daniel


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