# Sparring...what is it and is it worth doing?



## Tez3 (Jan 11, 2012)

After conversations on another thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...-open-sparring-sessions&p=1452542#post1452542, thought a new thread on what sparring is, how we do it and whether it's worth doing would be in order. I'll let others start off lol!


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## MJS (Jan 11, 2012)

As I said in the other thread, yes, I feel that sparring is important, as 1 of the many training methods.  I really can't add anything new to this thread, other than what I've already been preaching..lol.  Yes, sparring, IMHO, is important.  Whether you're sparring stand up or sparring rolling in BJJ, it provides the student with an arena to test what they know, in an unrehearsed area.  

Once again, its not all that should be done, but it needs to be done.  A golfer trains his swing, his various shots, etc, over and over and over.  When he goes onto the course to play against someone else, that is his sparring.  A blue belt in BJJ learns a new choke.  Its drilled numerous times.  He rolls with another student, to test his new choke.  Can he pull it off on someone who is actively resisting?  This is simply my opinion.  A real world fight is unpredictable.  If you can't pull your stuff off against unpredictable attacks in the dojo, what're you going to do in the real world?  And yes, before anyone brings up the differences between the real world and training, yeah, I'm not clueless...I'm aware of the differences.  However, firefighters, LEOs, Military, all conduct training exercises to simulate what they will face in their respective profession.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 11, 2012)

Sparring is useful when you are working on something specific. 
Sean


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## Steve (Jan 11, 2012)

Sparring.  I've said many times that I think sparring is critical.  Unscripted, free flowing drills are where you develop the skills necessary to build competence and eventually expertise. 

But, I also think that it's important to remember this.  What is it?  Fun.

Is it worth doing?  Yes, even if the only benefit is that it's fun.

I know that the thread will move into learning theory and all that, but bottom line for me, and i believe most modern martial artists, is that we train for fun.  If you like the competitive element, you will want to spar.  If you don't, you will find a style that supports your inclination.


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## Tez3 (Jan 11, 2012)

What however is sparring? Is it two martial artist padding up and going for it full contact or is it an extension of the drills? I think the misundrstandings come when there's no definition of what we think sparring is and how we do it.Are some people calling fighting sparring?
  Can you learn to fight without sparring? How do you learn to judge distances, reactions etc if you don't spar at all?


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## Steve (Jan 11, 2012)

The key ingredient for me is that it is unscripted.  It can be limited, but it must be unscripted.


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## MJS (Jan 11, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> What however is sparring? Is it two martial artist padding up and going for it full contact or is it an extension of the drills? I think the misundrstandings come when there's no definition of what we think sparring is and how we do it.Are some people calling fighting sparring?
> Can you learn to fight without sparring? How do you learn to judge distances, reactions etc if you don't spar at all?



IMO, its 2 people competing against each other.  Sparring seen in BJJ will be different than say Kyokushin.  BJJ will be focusing on submissions, escapes, reversals, counters, etc.  Both parties will be using all of their tools, to submit the other.  As for the gear...it all depends on what you want.  Personally, I like to wear as little as possible, as I feel that too much, is a hinderance.  If we're talking about stand up sparring, the idea, IMO, is to test your striking, blocking, footwork, kicking, etc, against another person, trying to do the same.  Contact will vary from art to art.  

No, I dont feel that you can learn to fight without sparring.  While not the same, its the next closest thing.


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## Tez3 (Jan 11, 2012)

When we spar, we are told how long for and how hard to go, it's never full on, often it's not even hard. Sometimes it will be hands only or feet only, often it will be straight stand up, sometimes it will be stand up with takedowns but no grappling. Other times standup with takedowns and grappling. It depends on what we are practising. We can have sparring with one defending, one attacking in turns. It's never scripted, always controlled and afterwards we are told where there's weaknesses and where theirs strengths, we can drill techniques to correct the weakness ie dropping arms when kicking so practice kicks with hands up. the only way to find those weaknesses is to spar, you can see if someone always kicks with the same leg, or if they make a specific move that gives away what they are going to do, a 'tell' if you like. You can correct that but also you learn to look for it. You can see if someone can react to the unknown, if it's scripted you know it's coming.


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## MaxiMe (Jan 11, 2012)

MJS said:


> If we're talking about stand up sparring, the idea, IMO, is to test your striking, blocking, footwork, kicking, etc, against another person, trying to do the same. Contact will vary from art to art.
> 
> No, I dont feel that you can learn to fight without sparring. While not the same, its the next closest thing.


I would agree and add timing and distancing to the list. Also the look of different styles (not particularly arts) an aggressive fighter vs an defensive one.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 11, 2012)

Sparring is limited application of learned techniques.  I feel it is useful, but one must understand the limitations it imposes and how that affects your application of the same techniques outside the sparring environment.

I think it is also useful in that it can bring about the 'fear' or heightened awareness that a real fight might bring, to a lesser extent, and that is good; some people have never faced a real self-defense threat before and do not know how they would react.  The best training in the world is useless if you're frozen in fear.  Sparring can help you confront that and overcome it in a controlled manner.

Sparring over a period of time also tends to, in my opinion, slow things down from your point of view.  You start by being banged unmercifully about the head and shoulders.  Eventually you learn to see the movement before it comes, and to react accordingly.  You don't have to be the fastest around if you know that when the foot comes up, a kick is coming; and that can't be taught by practicing drills so much.  Unscripted (great term that) sparring means it's on you to look for and interpret the intention of your opponent.  It has the effect of slowing things down in your mind; it's like you have time to think about what you're going to do before you commit to the movement.  Not that I'm a master of it; but I have experienced the effect.

Plus I like it.  I enjoy the rather primitive feeling of peering over my gloves at an opponent with bad intent and knowing he's doing the same to me.  Something very primal there.  And I enjoy the camaraderie afterwards.  Nothing like hanging out with a bunch of guys you have fought with, whom you know pack the gear and they know the same about you.  Not to be overly-dramatic, but just summoning the courage to step into the ring makes you a different person in many ways.


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 11, 2012)

I believe in scripted sparring only.  By that I mean that it is freely "free drilling."  The person doing the move knows EXACTLY what to do and the person receiving knows EXACTLY what is going to happen each step of the way.

I do not believe in any "unscripted" sparring.

When I use the term sparring in my school it is defined as "lively two-person drilling" that is specifically directed.

I am trying to make this easy to understand.  Does what I just stated come across easy to understand?

Oh and for fun we have a "sumo styled" wrestling game we do.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 11, 2012)

Steve said:


> The key ingredient for me is that it is unscripted.  It can be limited, but it must be unscripted.


I'm thinking the opposite. LOL


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## Twin Fist (Jan 11, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> I believe in scripted sparring only.  By that I mean that it is freely "free drilling."  The person doing the move knows EXACTLY what to do and the person receiving knows EXACTLY what is going to happen each step of the way.
> 
> I do not believe in any "unscripted" sparring.



then, IMO you are not learning martial arts, or much of anything else

self defense isnt scripted, the bad guys dont let you know what they are gonna do first. You have to develop the ability to think and react on a subconcious level, without thinking.

the ONLY way to learn combat speed defense is to train at combat speed. The only way to learn how to get hit and not freeze is to GET HIT, the only way to learn how to hit a moving target is to hit one, live, when they are trying to avoid getting hit.

anything else is a dance, and a waste of time and money

sparring isnt ALL of martial art practice, but it is IMO the single largest part of the pie.

martial arts without contact and live sparring is like a virgin watching porn

nothing but theory


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## Tez3 (Jan 11, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> then, IMO you are not learning martial arts, or much of anything else
> 
> self defense isnt scripted, the bad guys dont let you know what they are gonna do first. You have to develop the ability to think and react on a subconcious level, without thinking.
> 
> ...



Now that is a damn good metaphor!!

To be honest I can't understand how scripted sparring is going to help you learn to cope with the unexpected. Scripted sparring is what you see in films and on the television, chereographed fights. Well I guess everyone can have a win that way.  

Scripted sparring, yes that's easy to understand but the reasons why aren't. Perhaps it's a fear that someone does something without the instructors say so. That's taking control freakism to the extreme, you can't control what happens to your fighter in the cage/ring/street etc. It might work if you had endless amount of time to practice *every* combination known to man. 
Now I'm off to challenge someone to a scripted fight so I can say I won!


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## Native (Jan 11, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> I believe in scripted sparring only.  By that I mean that it is freely "free drilling."  The person doing the move knows EXACTLY what to do and the person receiving knows EXACTLY what is going to happen each step of the way.
> 
> I do not believe in any "unscripted" sparring.
> 
> When I use the term sparring in my school it is defined as "lively two-person drilling" that is specifically directed.



Hi Jason. Your point of view really fascinates me.

I believe the largest benefit of sparring is testing what you have learned. You can drill blocking a punch all day long. You can practice the same technique how you describe above. But unless you are able to apply that block when you DON'T know the punch is coming, then it all seems rather like play to me. There is absolutely no way you can be assured of your skill unless you try it in some situation that resembles real life. An attacker is never going to announce he is going to apply a punch in the face and make sure you are ready for it; which sounds like what you are describing.

Sparring has a lot of benefits in my opinion, many of which have been stated above and in the previous thread. The "slowing down" of combat Bill described is a great example and one that cannot be developed from drilling. I do not think it takes a degree in psychology to understand what works and what does not. 

Though I have read everything you have post in the last two threads, I'm really just having a disconnect when trying to understand how you can train for fighting (MMA) and not value solid sparring. I'd love to hear more from you on this.

Thanks
-Adam Marcum


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 11, 2012)

I didn't post on the other thread, since it was off topic.. . And to be honest, I don't have much to add after reading the above posts.  Sparring is a vital part of training in any combat sport or martial art, whether we're talking about fencing, boxing, tkd, karate, or whatever.  

Sparring means the same thing no matter what the activity; to engage in a free form exhibition of your art/sport against a partner or opponent.  However, what differs from school to school/art to art/sport to sport are the rulesets, i.e. degree of contact, degree of speed, types of movements allowed, etc.. .

In my school, the "normal" sparring session is all stand up striking with hands and feet.  It has many benefits as a training tool, which include but are not limited to the following:


testing proficiency of distancing, timing, footwork, speed, control, precision, and technique in "real time" against a live partner.
experience of taking a hit (REALLY IMPORTANT ONE), and learning that you *can* take a hit and keep on going.
testing proficiency and efficiency of offensive and defensive techniques and combinations of techniques.
competition with others and oneself.
it's generally considered the most fun part of class that everyone looks forward to in my dojang.
I do throw some expanded rulesets from time to time, including multiple opponents, takedowns, grappling, open hand techniques, weapons, and what not, but that's not the mainstay.

I know different arts/sports have different goals associated with sparring.  For instance, I have a friend that practices pukulon silat, where all sparring is done in 1/2 speed, with very light contact.  My friend explains that, in this art, every movement is meant to be a fatal one, so it's kinda difficult to spar full speed with any of their techniques.  So obviously, there are limitations depending on the activity/style/whatever.


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 11, 2012)

I know this may be hard to accept/understand whatever, and I don't expect everyone (nearly anyone) to agree, however, comments that say "you can't learn fighting without fighting", or "without sparring you aren't doing anything" are just not in line with reality.  Again, I understand the long time tradition of fight training and sparring but that doesn't mean we should stick with it just because.  

Sparring shouldn't be about winning Tez3 it should be about learning.

What is the goal of your sparring?

Sparring was taught to me as a way to hone technical ability and master the dynamic physical nature of a fight while learning to "think on my feet" and adapt.  Well, when you break those elements down and really look at it without ego or preconceived ideas then you might just find there are better ways to train those attributes - at least I did.

I don't need unscripted sparring to develop timing.
I don't need unscripted sparring to develop speed.
I don't need unscripted sparring to develop power.
I don't need unscripted sparring to develop technique.
I don't need unscripted sparring to develop confidence.
I don't need unscripted sparring to develop mental toughness.
I don't need unscripted sparring to develop aggressiveness.
and on and on.

So.....why do I need unscripted sparring again?


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 11, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> Sparring shouldn't be about winning Tez3 it should be about learning.
> 
> What is the goal of your sparring?



As I stated above, depending on the school, art, sport, etc.. . the goal of sparring can vary greatly.



jasonbrinn said:


> Sparring was taught to me as a way to hone technical ability and master the dynamic physical nature of a fight while learning to *"think on my feet" and adapt*.  Well, when you break those elements down and really look at it without ego or preconceived ideas then you might just find there are better ways to train those attributes - at least I did.
> 
> 
> So.....why do I need unscripted sparring again?



I am missing where/how you gain experience and proficiency in the bolded skill above without free sparring.  I am assuming you are not suggesting that you gain experience in this through your predetermined sparring, so I am curious as to how you approach this aspect of martial training sans free sparring.


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## Native (Jan 11, 2012)

Ok, I think I completely understand now, Jason. Thanks!


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 11, 2012)

Native said:


> Hi Jason. Your point of view really fascinates me.
> 
> I believe the largest benefit of sparring is testing what you have learned. You can drill blocking a punch all day long. You can practice the same technique how you describe above. But unless you are able to apply that block when you DON'T know the punch is coming, then it all seems rather like play to me. There is absolutely no way you can be assured of your skill unless you try it in some situation that resembles real life. An attacker is never going to announce he is going to apply a punch in the face and make sure you are ready for it; which sounds like what you are describing.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the great comment!

What happens in the street CAN NOT be recreated in the "dojo" without all out attacking your students.  So, what is created by "sparring"?  IMO a false sense of just about everything.  Whether anyone openly states it we all feel safe when sparring in a class.  the sparring partner is more than likely not going to try and hurt us so our perception and our mind/body perception of the event is VERY different than when you are truly surprised and confronted with a situation without known variables.

Some would say, sure but sparring is the best thing we can get close to real fighting.  Is it?  We have data on what happens in "real" events to the body - the physiological and mental aspects.  I believe and have proven in my training that these aspects can be more accurately created by other means.  Without creating and "connecting" fear to a situation we can manifest the effects and situation physically of fear within the body of the person training while at the same time maintaining almost perfect technique (here fear is used as one example, there are obviously many others).  When one does this repeatedly over a certain amount of time the responsive effect of the student to "real" stimulus is much, A LOT, more favorable.

Take for instance the widely accepted fact that if you do something 25 times or more in a row it starts to form a habit.  Well if you were sparring and working on timing over 50 sessions, let's say you get the timing down and repeatable by the 30 or 35th try but youre still "mastering it" even through all 50.  Now you take someone of equal athleticism that has performed a realistic but scripted drill for 50 sessions where they were able to perform the drill accurately for more than 40 times with no memory of "bad attempts" or muscle memory from failed attempts.  Put those two individuals in a sparring match and my money is on the drilling opponent to perform the timing sequence FAR better - in fact I have done many tests like this and seen it happen first hand.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 11, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> I don't need unscripted sparring to develop timing.


*YES YOU DO without sparring, you are not going to develop combat effective timing, nor will you learn how to hit a moving, non co-operative target
*


jasonbrinn said:


> I don't need unscripted sparring to develop speed.


*YES YOU DO if you are not getting hit, you will never learn to develop effective speed 
*


jasonbrinn said:


> I don't need unscripted sparring to develop power.


*YES YOU DO, it is an entirely different game when a partner is co-operating than when they are not
*


jasonbrinn said:


> I don't need unscripted sparring to develop technique.


*YES YOU DO what works in the air doesnt work against a no co-operative partner
*


jasonbrinn said:


> I don't need unscripted sparring to develop confidence.


*YES YOU DO the only way to learn that you can actually hit and not kill them, is to hit them, the only way to learn that you can get hit and not die is to get hit
*


jasonbrinn said:


> I don't need unscripted sparring to develop mental toughness.


*
 YES YOU DO, but i am thinking that your mind is made up, are you SURE you are taking martial arts? exactly what is it that you are learning?*


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## Grenadier (Jan 11, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> I don't need unscripted sparring to develop timing.
> I don't need unscripted sparring to develop speed.
> I don't need unscripted sparring to develop power.
> I don't need unscripted sparring to develop technique.
> ...




Think of it like a tennis player. 

Sure, I don't need to practice against a live player to develop timing.  I can hit balls launched at me by the ball machine. 
Sure, I don't need to practice against a live player to develop speed.  I can do all sorts of speed drills.  
Sure, I don't need to practice against a live player to develop power.  I can lift weights.  
Sure, I don't need to practice against a live player to develop technique.  I can work on one technique at a time against a ball machine.  
Sure, I don't need to practice against a live player to develop confidence.  I can keep hitting back those balls launched at me by the ball machine and be confident in my techniques under these circumstances. 
Sure, I don't need to practice against a live player to develop mental toughness.  As long as I only play against the ball machine, nobody can question my toughness.  
Sure, I don't need to practice against a live player to develop aggressiveness.  I can crank up the speed on the ball machine! 



> So....why do I need unscripted sparring again?



Because, no amount of preparation against the ball machine is going to replace the unpredictability that is inherent in a live opponent.  Live opponents can hit shots with topspin, underspin, or flat.  They can change pace at a whim, without having to turn a dial or punch a button on a machine.  They can hit the ball to where you are not, which the machine will probably not be able to do.  The live opponents can act and react, and even establish an overwhelming presence on the tennis court, whereas a ball machine is still a ball machine...  



The exact same thing can be said about sparring.  While you can certainly practice techniques in a pre-arranged pattern, such as in ippon kumite, in the end, no amount of ippon kumite training will substitute for going against the unpredictability of a live opponent.


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 11, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> What happens in the street CAN NOT be recreated in the "dojo" without all out attacking your students.  So, what is created by "sparring"?  IMO a false sense of just about everything.  Whether anyone openly states it we all feel safe when sparring in a class.  the sparring partner is more than likely not going to try and hurt us so our perception and our mind/body perception of the event is VERY different than when you are truly surprised and confronted with a situation without known variables.



Sure, sparring doesn't equate to a street fight, and I don't think anyone here is suggesting that sparring is analogous to self-defense training.  Self-defense training is just that; SD training, not sparring.  Sparring provides many benefits to training in my dojang, but adding to SD isn't one of them.  

Also, as I stated above the rulesets and purpose of sparring differs from place to place.  We don't use protective gear in our dojang (other than groin protectors).  We have had the occasional KO, bone fx, contusion, etc.. .  While I will state that no one's intention is to hurt their sparring partner, I would argue that they are fully aware that they had better do their very best to protect themselves while on the floor.  Does this equal to the sympathetic response you may experience on the street? No.  But that's not the point of sparring, IMO.



jasonbrinn said:


> Some would say, sure but sparring is the best thing we can get close to real fighting.  Is it?  We have data on what happens in "real" events to the body - the physiological and mental aspects.  I believe and have proven in my training that these aspects can be more accurately created by other means.  Without creating and "connecting" fear to a situation we can manifest the effects and situation physically of fear within the body of the person training while at the same time maintaining almost perfect technique (here fear is used as one example, there are obviously many others).  When one does this repeatedly over a certain amount of time the responsive effect of the student to "real" stimulus is much, A LOT, more favorable.
> 
> Take for instance the widely accepted fact that if you do something 25 times or more in a row it starts to form a habit.  Well if you were sparring and working on timing over 50 sessions, let's say you get the timing down and repeatable by the 30 or 35th try but youre still "mastering it" even through all 50.  Now you take someone of equal athleticism that has performed a realistic but scripted drill for 50 sessions where they were able to perform the drill accurately for more than 40 times with no memory of "bad attempts" or muscle memory from failed attempts.  Put those two individuals in a sparring match and my money is on the drilling opponent to perform the timing sequence FAR better - in fact I have done many tests like this and seen it happen first hand.



Having a strong background in sports medicine, I recognize the  limitations of reinforced muscle memory when that memory isn't of a  "perfect" movement.  I will also agree that adding in the variable of  free sparring further stunts the growth of proper muscle memory when you  are first learning.  However, this appears to be a goal of "ideal  technique," rather than the purpose of free sparring, which is, IMHO, *experiencing *a lively exchange of techniques in a free form manner.  

Furthermore, I'm still not sure how you approach the experiential component of taking a hit, reactive timing of an unknown attack, or adapting to the unexpected movement of an opponent.


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## Native (Jan 11, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> realistic but scripted drill



I found it.. this is the thing that doesn't work, I believe. Take drilling a cross punch, for example. If you "spar" then a strike will come at you from a different direction often. Even if it is just supposed to be a cross. 50 cross punches, coming at you 50 different ways. Maybe because the attacker just had to side step to avoid a strike, or maybe the defender is in a different position because he lost his balance from a failed counter. Dynamic movements resulting from sparring make this happen. I cannot imagine being able to do this any other way. 

Drilling things is a huge part of MA. I've drilled all my techniques countless times and in many different ways. I've taught and witnessed other students do it for years. I've seen them do very well in controlled situations and able to perform these techniques near perfectly. I've also sparred and seen sparring from these same students. Oddly enough, that trap they have practiced with wonderful results when drilling doesn't happen so nicely during sparring. But the more they practice sparring the better they get at identifying when to apply the trap and actually being able to accomplish it. This is my personal experience in training also. Simple observation makes this evident and undeniable. It really is that simple.

Unfortunately, the only way I, and probably others, would believe it is to see it. If you are ever in northern VA... 

Thanks
-Adam Marcum

edited for speeling.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 11, 2012)

Using your basics against the unknown and unscripted is part of the script.


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 11, 2012)

Awesome stuff people - thanks for the great responses and I will think over everyone's carefully going forward.

@Twin Fists - we will just have to disagree.  My experience and real world applications have shown something different than what yours has seem to have turned out - maybe I'm wrong but it has not been proven yet (I am ready to change if and when it does though).  I have definitely trained MAs my entire life but now I teach self defense and coach people on combatives and sports training.

@Grenadier - agreed to some extent.  I am not saying that my methods can 100% prepare someone for the kinds of unexpected and truly dynamic aspects you detailed - what I am saying is that through my methods my students get a much higher percentage of appropriate response reactions by "cleaner" training and they get A LOT better A LOT faster (dramatically faster learning arc) then people who train the traditional way through real experiences (when they fight it seems to be much more beneficial for them than students I train under the traditional method)

@SahBumNimRush - You posted _"__Self-defense training is just that; SD training, not sparring. Sparring provides many benefits to training in my dojang, but adding to SD isn't one of them"_ so why then do you spar?  I teach SD techniques exclusively for MAs and train people for sports like MMA, etc.  To say that sparring isn't done for SD makes me question the whole reason why any MA (which is mostly considered for SD) would spar that felt that way at all?  Is the sparring taught as a cultural thing?


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 11, 2012)

Native said:


> I found it.. this is the thing that doesn't work, I believe. Take drilling a cross punch, for example. If you "spar" then a strike will come at you from a different direction often. Even if it is just supposed to be a cross. 50 cross punches, coming at you 50 different ways. Maybe because the attacker just had to side step to avoid a strike, or maybe the defender is in a different position because he lost his balance from a failed counter. Dynamic movements resulting from sparring make this happen. I cannot imagine being able to do this any other way.
> 
> Drilling things is a huge part of MA. I've drilled all my techniques countless times and in many different ways. I've taught and witnessed other students do it for years. I've seen them do very well in controlled situations and able to perform these techniques near perfectly. I've also sparred and seen sparring from these same students. Oddly enough, that trap they have practiced with wonderful results when drilling doesn't happen so nicely during sparring. But the more they practice sparring the better they get at identifying when to apply the trap and actually being able to accomplish it. This is my personal experience in training also. Simple observation makes this evident and undeniable. It really is that simple.
> 
> ...



Well I live in Raleigh so it is not that much of a drive really.  Do you train at a gym or do you teach?  Northern VA makes me think of Trident, Irvin's or Yamasaki's - are you at any of these?

What style do you train?  If you fight what weight class?  I would be more than willing to give you a short sequence to test out on your own so you could see my stuff in action.


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## Tez3 (Jan 11, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> I know this may be hard to accept/understand whatever, and I don't expect everyone (nearly anyone) to agree, however, comments that say "you can't learn fighting without fighting", or "without sparring you aren't doing anything" are just not in line with reality. Again, I understand the long time tradition of fight training and sparring but that doesn't mean we should stick with it just because.
> 
> Sparring shouldn't be about winning Tez3 it should be about learning.
> 
> ...



Did I say sparring was for winning? I said that with scripted sparring I can win, especially if I script it. I actually had already told you why we spar, I guess you didn't read it.

What scripted sparring doesn't do is train you to cope with the unexpected, how can it possibly when you always know what's coming? Everything you do through your scripted sparring we do, we however do unscripted sparring as well because we believe that you need that element of unpredictablity, the rush that comes when you realise you don't know what your opponent is going to do, the aliveness of testing in fact. 

Any one of us training in our various styles does what you do yet we value sparring as well as enjoying it. We don't spend all our time sparring, it's only a fraction of what we do yet it ads that aliveness to our training that there really isn't any substitute for. It's not ego or closedmindedness that makes me say this, I've tried to see what you do that is different from the rest of us and there's no difference other than your need to control the students sparring.

The way you write makes me think you assume all we do is spar, it might not be that but it's coming over that you think we spar for most sessions when in fact we don't. sparring is a tiny fraction of what we do but we believe a vital part.


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 11, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Did I say sparring was for winning? I said that with scripted sparring I can win, especially if I script it. I actually had already told you why we spar, I guess you didn't read it.
> 
> What scripted sparring doesn't do is train you to cope with the unexpected, how can it possibly when you always know what's coming? Everything you do through your scripted sparring we do, we however do unscripted sparring as well because we believe that you need that element of unpredictablity, the rush that comes when you realise you don't know what your opponent is going to do, the aliveness of testing in fact.
> 
> Any one of us training in our various styles does what you do yet we value sparring as well as enjoying it. We don't spend all our time sparring, it's only a fraction of what we do yet it ads that aliveness to our training that there really isn't any substitute for. It's not ego or closedmindedness that makes me say this, I've tried to see what you do that is different from the rest of us and there's no difference other than your need to control the students sparring.



I respect your opinion and your experience but we just disagree.

I am not "controlling" anything only offering the best instruction I can to offer the most success for my students.

I play the percentages and drilling is higher than sparring time and time again.  The body when properly drilled reacts in reality the first time out remarkably well.  This kind of training is done in other ways across other disciplines to high result.

I believe in testing your training regimen and acumen by fighting.  I think sparring is a bad tradition fun or not that ultimately lends itself to supporting antiquated techniques and bad science principles rampant in most MAs.  This is my opinion.  An opinion that I have derived after testing.  An opinion I offer up for anyone willing to test and find the results for themselves.  I am willing to be wrong....when proven so.


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## Native (Jan 11, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> Well I live in Raleigh so it is not that much of a drive really.  Do you train at a gym or do you teach?  Northern VA makes me think of Trident, Irvin's or Yamasaki's - are you at any of these?
> 
> What style do you train?  If you fight what weight class?  I would be more than willing to give you a short sequence to test out on your own so you could see my stuff in action.



I train in a combination MA (not to be confused with MMA). It draws heavily from TKD, kick boxing & Hapkido but has elements of some other arts as well, including some ground work. We train in a dojang that does not belong to me. I am an instructor there, but second to our Sabumnim, who teaches almost every class. I don't fight competitively; just sparring. If you are ever in the area I could probably work something out for mat time. But don't make a special trip for me :ultracool


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## Tez3 (Jan 11, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> I respect your opinion and your experience but we just disagree.
> 
> I am not "controlling" anything only offering the best instruction I can to offer the most success for my students.
> 
> ...



So why I have I got fighters who fight successfully if I don't follow the way you do it? why are the top ranked fighters still sparring when they train? Why are you right and the most successful trainers and fighters are wrong? I'm sorry but there's nothing to show you are doing anything we aren't. You think we don't do endless drills, don't train endless at our techniques, that we don't go over and over set pieces, combinations etc yet just because we also spar you think we are wrong? Sparring is a half percent of what we do, I've already said this but again you intimate we spend our time _sparring time and time again _(your words). Basically you are saying you think we spar all the time and don't do drills. Man, we do drills until they come out of our ears, you've no idea how much we drill things, sparring however puts the aliveness in what we do. We will drill something then try it, the surprise on peoples faces when you don't keep to the script is obvious which is why you need unscripted sparring. that lement of surprise, the feeling you don't know what's coming. It makes sure you don't send your fightrs into that cage with a false sense of security, theat they know anything can happen and they have the knowledge to be able to react. It must be a shock for anyone used to scripted sparring to face an unknown opponent who doesn't know the script, I'm sorry but that's not the way to prepare an MMA fighter.


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 11, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> So why I have I got fighters who fight successfully if I don't follow the way you do it? why are the top ranked fighters still sparring when they train? Why are you right and the most successful trainers and fighters are wrong? I'm sorry but there's nothing to show you are doing anything we aren't. You think we don't do endless drills, don't train endless at our techniques, that we don't go over and over set pieces, combinations etc yet just because we also spar you think we are wrong? Sparring is a half percent of what we do, I've already said this but again you intimate we spend our time _sparring time and time again _(your words). Basically you are saying you think we spar all the time and don't do drills. Man, we do drills until they come out of our ears, you've no idea how much we drill things, sparring however puts the aliveness in what we do. We will drill something then try it, the surprise on peoples faces when you don't keep to the script is obvious which is why you need unscripted sparring. that lement of surprise, the feeling you don't know what's coming. It makes sure you don't send your fightrs into that cage with a false sense of security, theat they know anything can happen and they have the knowledge to be able to react. It must be a shock for anyone used to scripted sparring to face an unknown opponent who doesn't know the script, I'm sorry but that's not the way to prepare an MMA fighter.




I never said you didn't do anything, the response was to the majority of people who treat sparring in the ways they mentioned on the thread.  Great for you and your fighters.  I never said anyone was wrong only that I have found a higher percentage way for me and mine.  If 100% of the fighters train a particular way then the winning methods are at least 50% right?  Just cause everyone trains a certain way, including the top guys, doesn't mean there aren't advances made and new ideas formulated.

I respect your opinion and your results.  I too, however, have trained with top guys and trained MMA fighters in the exact method I just described with 100% results of my own so that at least means your way is not the only way, right?  I am not asking for faith - I am suggesting testing something different and just maybe you might find some different superior results.  What's wrong with that?


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## Tez3 (Jan 11, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> I never said you didn't do anything, the response was to the majority of people who treat sparring in the ways they mentioned on the thread. Great for you and your fighters. I never said anyone was wrong only that I have found a higher percentage way for me and mine. If 100% of the fighters train a particular way then the winning methods are at least 50% right? Just cause everyone trains a certain way, including the top guys, doesn't mean there aren't advances made and new ideas formulated.
> 
> I respect your opinion and your results. I too, however, have trained with top guys and trained MMA fighters in the exact method I just described with 100% results of my own so that at least means your way is not the only way, right? I am not asking for faith - I am suggesting testing something different and just maybe you might find some different superior results. What's wrong with that?



Nothing wrong with something different, only what you are doing isn't different, it's what everyone else is doing minus the unchoreographed sparring.


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## Native (Jan 11, 2012)

From everyone's account, we are not talking about a big chunk of training here. Maybe 5%, 2% or 0.5% ... I'm wondering why NOT spar? Sparring, at the very least, is a lot of fun and why not put some fun in your training 2% of the time?. 

Jason contends that it is not the most efficient way to train. But do you think it actually regresses one's training? If that is the case, I'm afraid there are way too many successful examples to the contrary. History as a witness, the burden of proof lay at your feet. You should consider that your training has perhaps lead you to the wrong conclusion. You have misinterpreted or miscalculated somewhere. You have seen success at what you do, but consider it may not be because you have omitted sparring.

Like I and Tez have said, everyone drills. We drill A LOT. A lot more than sparring. Sounds like the biggest difference is you are missing about 5% of your training.

Edit.


> Nothing wrong with something different, only what you are doing isn't different, it's what everyone else is doing minus the unchoreographed sparring.



What Tez said.


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 11, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Nothing wrong with something different, only what you are doing isn't different, it's what everyone else is doing minus the unchoreographed sparring.



You assume too much.  How can you know what I am doing when all I have given you is the basis of how we do what we do...?  Take some junior guys, if you can and they are willing, and cycle them out of your normal training protocols and have them do everything minus sparring plus some heavily scripted sessions - do this for about 2 months and then cycle them back in to the regular training sessions and you will see the results for yourself.


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 11, 2012)

Native said:


> From everyone's account, we are not talking about a big chunk of training here. Maybe 5%, 2% or 0.5% ... I'm wondering why NOT spar? Sparring, at the very least, is a lot of fun and why not put some fun in your training 2% of the time?.
> 
> Jason contends that it is not the most efficient way to train. But do you think it actually regresses one's training? If that is the case, I'm afraid there are way too many successful examples to the contrary. History as a witness, the burden of proof lay at your feet. You should consider that your training has perhaps lead you to the wrong conclusion. You have misinterpreted or miscalculated somewhere. You have seen success at what you do, but consider it may not be because you have omitted sparring.
> 
> Like I and Tez have said, everyone drills. We drill A LOT. A lot more than sparring. Sounds like the biggest difference is you are missing about 5% of your training.



Great points, especially the point that the sparring might not have been the factor.  I went through this though and I had two groups train the two different ways.  Each group was evenly matched and the ONLY difference in the training was the scripted versus unscripted sparring and the results were ridiculously in favor of the scripted sparring method.  This "test" went as far as taking a previously completely untrained person from never being in a fight through this training method and never taking a single punch or even 1 sparring match into the MMA arena at the bottom of the heavyweight weight class against very experienced fighters and going 4-0 and winning the championship title in VA all within 1 year.  Now, I could have gotten lucky with that fighter, but that is not the only set of results I have had to lead me to believe heavily in this method. 

YES - I think unscripted sparring is bad.  I think it creates at the very least a much longer learning arc, and at the worst bad mental connections for the fighter/student.

*Oh, and in the test mentioned above - the sparring sessions for the group that did the unscripted sparring were lead and taught by a Nationally Rated Boxing Coach with the #3 guy in the nation in the gym at the time helping out.


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## Native (Jan 11, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> Great points, especially the point that the sparring might not have been the factor.  I went through this though and I had two groups train the two different ways.  Each group was evenly matched and the ONLY difference in the training was the scripted versus unscripted sparring and the results were ridiculously in favor of the scripted sparring method.  This "test" went as far as taking a previously completely untrained person from never being in a fight through this training method and never taking a single punch or even 1 sparring match into the MMA arena at the bottom of the heavyweight weight class against very experienced fighters and going 4-0 and winning the championship title in VA all within 1 year.  Now, I could have gotten lucky with that fighter, but that is not the only set of results I have had to lead me to believe heavily in this method.
> 
> YES - I think unscripted sparring is bad.  I think it creates at the very least a much longer learning arc, and at the worst bad mental connections for the fighter/student.
> 
> *Oh, and in the test mentioned above - the sparring sessions for the group that did the unscripted sparring were lead and taught by a Nationally Rated Boxing Coach with the #3 guy in the nation in the gym at the time helping out.



Impressive that you actually did such an experiment. The long history of sparring as a part of training and the Conventional wisdom, or common sense, on this subject have an enormous weight. And I'm not one to do something just because it's popular. Hell, I wouldn't watch a Harry Potter film for 3 years just because everyone was into it.. and I have 3 kids that are Potter freaks! Maybe not the best example, but you get the point. 

Your philosophy is so far from sensible to me that the only way I would ever be able to give it credit would be to spend a lot of time experimenting myself. Or you would have to provide a whole lot of examples and evidence. I mean a whole lot. If you believe in it, keep working it and find different ways to prove it with fact and examples. Otherwise, I fear you are on a small island. 

-Adam Marcum

Edit: And BTW, if you are citing instances as proof of something, you really should include names, dates and other specifics that could be followed up on if someone chose to. Otherwise it's just as easily a fantasy, not a fact.


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 11, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> @SahBumNimRush - You posted _"__Self-defense training is just that; SD training, not sparring. Sparring provides many benefits to training in my dojang, but adding to SD isn't one of them"_ so why then do you spar?  I teach SD techniques exclusively for MAs and train people for sports like MMA, etc.  To say that sparring isn't done for SD makes me question the whole reason why any MA (which is mostly considered for SD) would spar that felt that way at all?  Is the sparring taught as a cultural thing?



Hoshinsul a.k.a. "self-defense" training focuses on more damaging techniques and defenses against "all" attacks (grabs, chokes, strikes, locks, weapons, etc.), many of which are "illegal" in "normal" sparring in my dojang.  Sparring in TKD (presumably due to its roots in Shotokan) is primarily a competitive thing.  While there is a large spectrum of TKD from "traditional" to "sport" and everything in between, sparring is still at its basic level a competition between two partners and themselves.  Unless you are a higher rank and sparring a junior, in which case it is a teaching moment for the junior rank.  

There are aspects of sparring that lend themselves to SD training, but I wouldn't want to count on my sparring experience alone to help me in a street fight.  The ruleset of TKD sparring simply doesn't lend itself to the variables of a street fight.  The same could be said about just about any art that spars.  Take BJJ for example, if you took a fight to the ground on the street, you are neglecting to realize there could be a second or third or more assailants waiting to punch, kick, stab, shoot you while your grappling the first guy on the ground.  Or the "bum rushes" you see in MMA to take someone down (not sure what the move is really called, no offense intended: a movement where you put your head down and lunge at the opponent attempting to grab them around the waist to take them down), the ruleset does not allow strikes to the spine, which is an obvious target if someone tried that on the street.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 11, 2012)

> This "test" went as far as taking a previously completely untrained person from never being in a fight through this training method and never taking a single punch or even 1 sparring match into the MMA arena at the bottom of the heavyweight weight class against very experienced fighters and going 4-0 and winning the championship title in VA all within 1 year.



Yeah ... I'm going need something to back that up - names, dates, events - before I give it even the slightest bit of credibility.  Going from untrained to MMA champion (even amateur) against experienced opponents without ever doing a single sparring session doesn't strike me as particularly plausible.  I'm pretty certain there's not another MMA camp out there which trains its fighters that way.


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## Big Don (Jan 11, 2012)

Sparring is using all your abilities, knowledge, strategies, and tactics and a small part of your strength. Sparring, at my school, is an all out, no holds barred, brawl, in a controlled environment. The way my Sifu explains it: 





> Two things are going to happen in sparring: You're gonna get hit, it is gonna hurt.


 He also explains that sparring is NOT about punching and kicking, anyone can throw a punch or a kick, sparring is about learning to take a punch and a kick. As a great military commander, whose name escapes me, stated: No plan survives first contact with the enemy. You can be the baddest mofo around at set drills, but, what if your opponent throws a left kick instead of a right punch? 





Tez3 said:


> I said that with scripted sparring I can win, especially if I script it.


C'mon Tez, if I scripted it, I'd win every single time in dramatic and exciting fashion...


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## Tez3 (Jan 11, 2012)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah ... I'm going need something to back that up - names, dates, events - before I give it even the slightest bit of credibility. Going from untrained to MMA champion (even amateur) against experienced opponents without ever doing a single sparring session doesn't strike me as particularly plausible. I'm pretty certain there's not another MMA camp out there which trains its fighters that way.



I'd asked for proof from him on another thread when he made the same claim, I wanted to know the name of the fighter, who he fought and where. I pointed out that asking for proof may sound cynical but matchmaking can be a cynical business, I do know fighters who's coaches have found them matches they were bound to win, it's been going on in boxing for years. 

To ask me to take some of the lads out of training to try the no spar thing is frankly ridiculous, if that system worked we'd have all been doing it years ago, like the no touch KO thing, it that worked we'd all be doing it. All the top pro fighters in all the countries that have MMA are always looking for something to give them an edge, if this was choreographed sparring then they would have been on it like fleas on a dog, but they aren't. Every fighter I've know spars, every boxer spars, every Mt fighter spars. If there was a better way to train they'd be doing it that they aren't if proof what they are doing works. 
In martial arts to varying rules and restraints just about everyone spars, not to means you aren't doing martial arts. 


LOL at the bums rush..it is more technical than that with feet in the right place etc, it should be done properly with the head close to the side of your opponents body at about hip height...to avoid being choked, it should be done while your opponent is coming towards you to save you being dumped on the floor as he goes backwards and it should be done quickly because of the danger not so much of being struck on the spine but from eating a knee.

As everyone is saying, sparring isn't be all and end all of training but it's a very useful tool without which you are missing something vital from your training.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 11, 2012)

Sparring is great for practicing sustained striking against a sustained striker to practice keeping up sustained striking.
Its also good for Training Aggression, and reactive Defense.

Unlike Drills, Sparring constantly changes who has the initiative, and exactly whats happening. I feel it teaches You to react better to unpredictability. Optionally, it can be used to learn to fight by fighting.

This is also highly subjective to the System. Some Arts will suffer for Sparring, others will flourish.


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## Buka (Jan 11, 2012)

If you are training in a dojo and not sparring, ask for your money back. If you are training in a dojo and not sparring, God help you. If this becomes a trend, God help us all.


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## Big Don (Jan 12, 2012)

Buka said:


> If you are training in a dojo and not sparring, ask for your money back. If you are training in a dojo and not sparring, God help you. If this becomes a trend, God help us all.


Amen Brother


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## jedtx88 (Jan 12, 2012)

Hmm... Sparring.  Sparring is the second best way to improve your fighting skills.  The first being to go out and find yourself a fight, but that is also the best way to improve your skills at douchebaggery.  So while it may be better in a way to run around fighting random folks I would rather spar full contact and not worry about being stabbed.


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## MJS (Jan 12, 2012)

Jason,

I'm going to be as respectful as possible with my replies.  I hope that you can answer the following for me.  First, I asked this question in the other thread, but never got a reply.  Could you clarify this please?
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...-open-sparring-sessions&p=1452570#post1452570

Now for the quoted posts.





jasonbrinn said:


> I believe in scripted sparring only. By that I mean that it is freely "free drilling." The person doing the move knows EXACTLY what to do and the person receiving knows EXACTLY what is going to happen each step of the way.
> 
> I do not believe in any "unscripted" sparring.
> 
> ...



Do you ever, at any point in your training, do unscripted sparring?  I can agree that scripted is good...in the beginning, so that the student can learn.  Ex: Just like when I talked about the *I* method Matt uses.  Technically, I do the same thing you do....I teach the students a scripted reponse to a set attack, and they work on that.  But I'm just not seeing how anyone would be any good, if they don't train unscripted.  If they're walking to their car at 11pm, and someone comes up to them, they're not going to know who the person is or what they're going to do.





jasonbrinn said:


> I know this may be hard to accept/understand whatever, and I don't expect everyone (nearly anyone) to agree, however, comments that say "you can't learn fighting without fighting", or "without sparring you aren't doing anything" are just not in line with reality. Again, I understand the long time tradition of fight training and sparring but that doesn't mean we should stick with it just because.
> 
> Sparring shouldn't be about winning Tez3 it should be about learning.
> 
> ...



No, as its been said numerous times, you'll never replicate things 110%, BUT....you will get close.  Why?  Because time and time again, people simulate combat thru drills.  I had the chance to use a FATS machine (Firearms Training Simulator) at the PD.  Granted, when I was being 'shot' at, I really wasn't going to die, but its the mindset.  It was numerous random scenarios...unscripted scenarios.  This is what makes an effective firefighter, LEO, martial artist, etc.  Again, to clarify, scripted is good too.  I'm not saying its bad.  I do it.  Ex: With my last Kenpo inst., we'd focus alot on boxing skills.  Depending on what the focus of the private lesson was, we'd work on specific things, get in the ring, and I'd work just those things.  I knew what he was going to do.  We'd isolate specific things.  Of course, then we'd also work random things too.  Why?  Because IMO, without doing that you're never really going to be able to fully test it.  



jasonbrinn said:


> Thank you for the great comment!
> 
> What happens in the street CAN NOT be recreated in the "dojo" without all out attacking your students. So, what is created by "sparring"? IMO a false sense of just about everything. Whether anyone openly states it we all feel safe when sparring in a class. the sparring partner is more than likely not going to try and hurt us so our perception and our mind/body perception of the event is VERY different than when you are truly surprised and confronted with a situation without known variables.
> 
> ...



It only creates a flase sense, IMO, if the student is afraid of losing.  Losing is a part of life.  I've pulled off disarms against attacks in my Arnis class, yet when we gear up and those sticks are really swinging, half those disarms went out the darn window..lol.  I didn't get upset, it was a learning experience.  What creates the false sense, is if I never test myself.  If I don't then I'll always assume that what I do will work, when in reality, will may not, no matter what art you train or how hard you train.  We're not Supermen.

Anyways, I've said my piece.  I look forward to your reply.  As I said, I'm posting in a respectful fashion, and I hope I get the same in return.

Mike


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 12, 2012)

MJS said:


> Jason,
> 
> I'm going to be as respectful as possible with my replies.  I hope that you can answer the following for me.  First, I asked this question in the other thread, but never got a reply.  Could you clarify this please?
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...-open-sparring-sessions&p=1452570#post1452570
> ...



Thanks Mike, I really appreciate the post and your questions.

I did answer the question but in the flow of things I am sure it got shuffled around so here it is

Free Sparring (Jason Brinn's definition): Unscripted free flowing sparring between two willing people with a given rule set where no specific technique sequences having been pre-selected and agreed upon (basically what most people consider sparring).

I really DO NOT utilize sparring at all for training, ever.  I actually have a saying I drill into my groups head, "Train to fight don't fight to train."  Without people going off on the semantics inherent there I am referring, as my group fully understands, to sparring as a training tool.

My first art was Kyokushin Karate believe it or not, I like sparring.  I get why others like sparring.  I understand everyone's points about sparring, it is just after many many years of research and analyzing the data then going back and testing and on and on I have found that it has many more negatives in the building of a combat efficient warrior than positives (IMO - based on my research).  I also got a green belt in TSD at one point in my life and we sparred all the time.  I have trained boxing and taught at a prominent ISKA Kickboxing school training side-by-side with a couple of World Title holders.  I say these things to let people know I come from a sparring world - I have not gone soft or grown scared I have just chosen to follow the path of highest percentage results created by the best suited training processes.

From your posts it seems like you might be in Law Enforcement...?  If that is so then I am sure you are familiar with different "shooting stances" such as; Isosceles, Weaver, Chapman, Bulls-eye, Point Shooting, etc.  Now some departments choose and teach different stances based on the results they have collected and their conclusions about the effectiveness for their department of a specific stance over another.  You can probably guess based on the tone of most of my posts that I personally favor Point Shooting in line with my studies and belief in Applegate (also from my personal experiences but you wouldn't know that until now).  Well, as you know I'm sure, Point Shooting is good for a certain type of application but it probably "ain't" going to win me any trophies.

Can sparring be good?  As I have said before I know that it can be and that its fun and on and on.  However, for my objectives and in my research it is the least favored for "our department's" purposes.

So, do we ever spar?  Not anymore, and not in a long time!  We do compete though (some of us).  I personally do not compete anymore due to the fact that competing over the years lead me to have to have spinal surgery in 2010 for injuries resulting from such training (note:  I had already years before stopped advocating sparring though so the surgery has nothing to do with my views - oh and people reading this and training please for safety's sake respect weight divisions when you train - I banged it out with too many big boys I think).  Internally we have a sumo-styled game I developed to learn and train weight distribution and things like that that can only come from a dynamic feel.  The other things are MMA events, BJJ sport events, etc.

In my school the research is done outside of class and brought in to teach after passing several tests and has been proven to work for various body types in line with being based in anatomy, physics and combat psychology, etc.  There isn't any WORKING THINGS OUT in training.  Students train what is given cause they know we are telling them what works.  If a firearms instructor who has shot people and been in "gun battles" tells you to shoot a certain way and to train a certain way then you go with that - until different and better data presents itself or until you develop your own unfortunate personal reality  driven understanding.

In my system we know (believe) what movements form the most practical and replicable defenses.  We break those down and make everyone brutally efficient in the components that are entailed then drill obsessively until it is engrained.  With other tactics we developed will power and strong mental aggressiveness that has been found to be needed in such scenarios.  Training is as "clean" as possible.  We know from experience that when the time arrives the student will find all the tools they need to strike when they're needed (experience such as: prison work, bouncing, police work, military operations, MMA, sporting events, etc.).

Were not throwing chi balls in my basement! lol


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## Tez3 (Jan 12, 2012)

Jason how is what you do different from what we do other than we also do a bit of free sparring?

You have mentioned several times now your research etc but you give us no indication of this research, I can see no difference from how you train to how anyone else does ther than you don't allow free sparring. You also keep adding 'qualifications' ie training boxers etc.

If your style of teaching is so successful why aren't the top people in MMA using it? It's hard, to be honest, to take what you say as being genuine because there is no proof whatsoever being posted, no data, no facts nothing other than your opinion.I am cynical, I'm open to being persuaded but there's nothing other than your saying you've researched this and think it works. You tell me to stop our guys sparring for a while and see the difference but why would I do that when what they do now works especially when what you do sounds like what everyone else is doing minus the bit of sparring we do to make sure that what we do works (plus all the other benefits sparring brings).


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 12, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Jason how is what you do different from what we do other than we also do a bit of free sparring?
> 
> You have mentioned several times now your research etc but you give us no indication of this research, I can see no difference from how you train to how anyone else does ther than you don't allow free sparring. You also keep adding 'qualifications' ie training boxers etc.
> 
> If your style of teaching is so successful why aren't the top people in MMA using it? It's hard, to be honest, to take what you say as being genuine because there is no proof whatsoever being posted, no data, no facts nothing other than your opinion.I am cynical, I'm open to being persuaded but there's nothing other than your saying you've researched this and think it works. You tell me to stop our guys sparring for a while and see the difference but why would I do that when what they do now works especially when what you do sounds like what everyone else is doing minus the bit of sparring we do to make sure that what we do works (plus all the other benefits sparring brings).



I appreciate your honesty.  I also completely understand your point.  Unfortunately, due to events that occurred over an MMA school where I was the head coach and a malicious internet forum full of people hell bent on discarding the truth along with all the subsequent fall out over it I will NOT be releasing any specifics.  I know I know - its fine if you don't want to or can't find good reason to believe me - again I understand your points.  All I can say is that I am telling you the truth and have no reason to lie.  I guess I should just keep silent about things that I am not willing to provide truth over its just I was hoping someone would look past me and test what I was saying instead.  I can also say that if you try what I am suggesting then you will find the same results I did and they are much better than average.

I guess on the conceptual level what I do and advocate isn't different than what you do without the sparring.  I do believe the "way" we do it and the specific training we've worked on is different, but conceptually I am sure you are mostly right.

I too was VERY curious about the points you bring up.  I am not so delusional as to think I found something and it is the best and go against the grain without testing it.  In an effort to make sure we were not completely in la la land (as far as the MMA goes) we sent a fighter to live and train at Jackson's gym for about 3 months.  He actually was there with Jones before he made it big and trained along side him and the rest that were there.  I fully expected to find that he would be outclassed and would come back reporting how much we needed to work on.  I was VERY surprised when he returned bags in hand after the three month period saying we were doing a lot of the same things and that he did very well at the gym and jumped right him keeping pace with everyone.  I thought he would come back with his confidence shattered and decide to live their in AZ and train at Jackson's gym full time (which was the initial plan) but he didn't.  He actually came back confident that we were doing a great job and on the right track and he decided he would rather be back at our place and have us house him!  Now I am not saying we are on any kind of caliber as Jackson's - far from it - only that our training put out great results to the effect that one of our own could fit in at such a gym so well right from the start.

So we went on to train this guy for the next year having him fight 4 fights all within a 3 month period between each other, and actually the last two were fought in the same night back to back.  He weighed 210 sitting at the bottom of the heavyweight group and is around 5'11".  We didn't want to cut him down because we thought seeing such a discrepancy between him and his opponents made for exciting fights and we were confident he would succeed.  All of his opponents had previous records and much more experience - he had none before starting to train with us.  His first fight was against a 6'4" 250lb kimbo look alike and he gave him his only loss to date.  His next fight was against a Marine from a STRONG gym down at Fort Bragg.  His last two fights were back to back against BIG boys as well in a school gym were the air conditioner had went out and was scorching hot!  He never lost and put on a hell of a show each time (as you can see I am very proud of his hard work and fight).  Now, we couldn't make him fight nor can we take credit for his spirit but he does believe our training made the difference for him at that time.

I'm not looking to change anything or anyone's opinion I am just offering a different approach as a suggestion to try.  I don't run an open gym anymore and I am "out of the MA business" altogether.  The only thing I do now is consult with teachers about Self Defense as it pertains to using non-lethal methods and running schools as businesses without comprising their passion.  I am not selling anything (here anyway - I do sell products but not related to any of these discussions).  I am not looking for fanfare my name has been dragged through such a huge gutter that even people here that don't even know me start referencing the attacks of a few biased people as facts or something - my name has been more than ruined.

Heck the only reason I post on this forum is because I love the MAs so much and did them my whole life that is is just hard to just walk away.  

Take it for what it is worth or simply ignore it.  I am not saying it is better than anything only that it seems to offer better results.

If you do what you have always done you will get what you have always gotten.  And just cause your the best now doesn't mean you will be 5 years from now.  Just think how well the UFC 1 guys would stand against the caliber of guys today!


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## Never_A_Reflection (Jan 12, 2012)

Since I keep seeing this "have them stop sparring and see how they improve" thing so I'm going to actually step into this conversation, even though I have just been watching it up to this point.

I have done the "stop sparring and keep doing pre-arranged drills" thing (and kata) because of injuries.  Currently, I have a fractured foot and index finger.  These are not enough to stop me from training, but they do stop me from sparring because I will inevitably aggravate the injuries.  Because I have done this in the past for similar injuries, I know what the results are for me and so I will share them now and you can make of them what you will.

After sparring on a fairly regular basis (one or two nights a week) for several years, then receiving injuries that allow me to continue training all of my partner and solo drills but not sparring for up to two months, I found two major things when I started sparring again:  I did not lose my defensive reaction time but I did lose my offensive reaction time.  By that, I mean that I was still just easily able to block or evade incoming attacks, but I was not able to counter-attack or find openings nearly as effectively and that left me open to being hit by more counter-attacks than I had before.


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## decepticon (Jan 12, 2012)

Piping in with a response from a beginner...

I want both! I would have loved to have the luxury of some scripted sparring when I was just starting out! However, my instructor starts us out with light contact, unscripted sparring. I was scared to death - afraid I would make a fool of myself, afraid that I would, in my inexperience, accidentally hurt my sparring partner, afraid that I would forget everything I had learned and just stand there empty-headed. And in reality, every single one of these things did happen. My early sparring experiences would have been so much more enjoyable if I could have avoided those things. I do think I would have learned more quickly if I had been in a scripted situation where I knew, at least logically, what to do and when to do it. Then I could have focused more on timing, distance, etc.

However, I think I would have missed a lot if I remained in the scripted arena. Over time, in our unscripted sparring, I have had to learn more about how to read what is coming in. I have tried various responses and now know what works better for me and under which circumstances. I have had to learn how to get past that initial rush of adrenalin and focus on the business at hand. Much of the sparring we do is with two or more attackers. That adds even more variation and less predictability to the exercise - making the skills learned even more transferrable to an actual fight. I can't imagine how scripted sparring could teach the split second decision making that is the crux of unscripted sparring.

Certainly, sparring can never take the place of an actual fight. It just isn't practical to expect to provide the experience of truly fearing for your life, of actually trying to disable or kill an opponent. There will always have to be that leap of faith that our training will rise to the surface if those situations occur. But in my inexperienced opinion, unscripted sparring is the next best thing. But scripted sparring may well be an excellent introduction to this activity or a tool to work on specific rough spots.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 12, 2012)

when it is for real, you WILL get hit in the head

the ONLY way to get hit in the head and NOT freak out and freeze is to be USED to getting hit in the head

the only way to get used to getting hit in the head is to...................GET HIT IN THE HEAD


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## MJS (Jan 12, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> Thanks Mike, I really appreciate the post and your questions.
> 
> I did answer the question but in the flow of things I am sure it got shuffled around so here it is
> 
> Free Sparring (Jason Brinn's definition): Unscripted free flowing sparring between two willing people with a given rule set where no specific technique sequences having been pre-selected and agreed upon (basically what most people consider sparring).



Thanks, and yeah, it probably was just mixed in with the other posts.  



> I really DO NOT utilize sparring at all for training, ever.  I actually have a saying I drill into my groups head, "Train to fight don't fight to train."  Without people going off on the semantics inherent there I am referring, as my group fully understands, to sparring as a training tool.



Ok...points taken.  One more question for you.  I believe you stated that you have trained people for MMA fights.  Am I safe to assume that for those people, sparring was done?



> My first art was Kyokushin Karate believe it or not, I like sparring.  I get why others like sparring.  I understand everyone's points about sparring, it is just after many many years of research and analyzing the data then going back and testing and on and on I have found that it has many more negatives in the building of a combat efficient warrior than positives (IMO - based on my research).  I also got a green belt in TSD at one point in my life and we sparred all the time.  I have trained boxing and taught at a prominent ISKA Kickboxing school training side-by-side with a couple of World Title holders.  I say these things to let people know I come from a sparring world - I have not gone soft or grown scared I have just chosen to follow the path of highest percentage results created by the best suited training processes.



Funny you should mention Kyokushin, as I'm currently training in that.  We'll usually spar 1-2 times a week.  Its certainly not like any sparring that I've done before...lol.  I just view it as a way to learn to deal with a moving, resisting person, other than just doing empty hand Sd.  Now, out of curiosity, what do you think of the rolling thats done in BJJ?  This is considered their 'sparring'.  Do you feel that it hinders what they do?  What about a boxer?



> From your posts it seems like you might be in Law Enforcement...?  If that is so then I am sure you are familiar with different "shooting stances" such as; Isosceles, Weaver, Chapman, Bulls-eye, Point Shooting, etc.  Now some departments choose and teach different stances based on the results they have collected and their conclusions about the effectiveness for their department of a specific stance over another.  You can probably guess based on the tone of most of my posts that I personally favor Point Shooting in line with my studies and belief in Applegate (also from my personal experiences but you wouldn't know that until now).  Well, as you know I'm sure, Point Shooting is good for a certain type of application but it probably "ain't" going to win me any trophies.



I grew up in a LE family.  I worked for the DOC for a short time, however, currently I dispatch for a PD in CT.  Many of my good friends, training partners and instructors, have a LE background.  



> Can sparring be good?  As I have said before I know that it can be and that its fun and on and on.  However, for my objectives and in my research it is the least favored for "our department's" purposes.



Ok.



> So, do we ever spar?  Not anymore, and not in a long time!  We do compete though (some of us).  I personally do not compete anymore due to the fact that competing over the years lead me to have to have spinal surgery in 2010 for injuries resulting from such training (note:  I had already years before stopped advocating sparring though so the surgery has nothing to do with my views - oh and people reading this and training please for safety's sake respect weight divisions when you train - I banged it out with too many big boys I think).  Internally we have a sumo-styled game I developed to learn and train weight distribution and things like that that can only come from a dynamic feel.  The other things are MMA events, BJJ sport events, etc.



Isn't it amazing and I find myself saying all the time, that the martial arts are supposed to be good for us, yet look at how many times we get injured...lol.  All kidding aside, it sounds like you've had some pretty bad injuries.  



> In my school the research is done outside of class and brought in to teach after passing several tests and has been proven to work for various body types in line with being based in anatomy, physics and combat psychology, etc.  There isn't any WORKING THINGS OUT in training.  Students train what is given cause they know we are telling them what works.  If a firearms instructor who has shot people and been in "gun battles" tells you to shoot a certain way and to train a certain way then you go with that - until different and better data presents itself or until you develop your own unfortunate personal reality  driven understanding.



Ok.  I'm assuming that each person at some point, has to develop what works for them, no?  In other words, what may work for a 6'2 205lb male, will probably vary for a shorter, lighter female.



> In my system we know (believe) what movements form the most practical and replicable defenses.  We break those down and make everyone brutally efficient in the components that are entailed then drill obsessively until it is engrained.  With other tactics we developed will power and strong mental aggressiveness that has been found to be needed in such scenarios.  Training is as "clean" as possible.  We know from experience that when the time arrives the student will find all the tools they need to strike when they're needed (experience such as: prison work, bouncing, police work, military operations, MMA, sporting events, etc.).
> 
> Were not throwing chi balls in my basement! lol



Sounds good.   One more question. In another post, (I think it may've been that other thread) you mentioned that everyone knows whats going on, ie: everyone is on the same page, things're scripted, etc.  Am I safe to assume, that at some point in the training, a random, unscripted tech. is worked on?


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## ETinCYQX (Jan 12, 2012)

IMO you have to spar, unscripted, to learn martial arts. If you're not free sparring you're not training properly.


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 12, 2012)

MJS said:


> I believe you stated that you have trained people for MMA fights.  Am I safe to assume that for those people, sparring was done?




Not even once.  Not a single punch - nothing!  He trained the entire time with me without one sparring match - in fact when he went into his first fight he had NEVER in his entire life even been hit by anyone - not a single fight or anything!




MJS said:


> Now, out of curiosity, what do you think of the rolling thats done in BJJ?  This is considered their 'sparring'.  Do you feel that it hinders what they do?  What about a boxer?




YES - I FULLY believe that rolling is BAD!  I coached BJJ for quite a while and for the last 5 years or so kept people from rolling - they all did much better and won...a lot.  Boxing to me is slightly different just cause of the rules - now I don't believe sparring helps even for boxing but in boxing you almost have to due to all of the limitations.  If I trained someone I still probably wouldn't let them spar even in boxing.




MJS said:


> All kidding aside, it sounds like you've had some pretty bad injuries.



C4-C5 Spinal fusion.  I spent a year in the VA with them trying to figure it out.  I actually took a few challenges and sparred a lot during the time before my surgery - I coached an MMA school in a very competitive region and guys would show up each night wanting to spar or roll with me so I had no choice - there was a lot of drama and I wasn't going to let some meathead looking to prove a point hurt any of my students.  I would always say after a match that I didn't feel the full power in my right arm and just thought I had a shoulder cuff injury or something. But the pain got MUCH MUCH worse!





MJS said:


> I'm assuming that each person at some point, has to develop what works for them, no?



Actually no.  If it doesn't work for the smallest and weakest then we don't train it - seriously.  We attack the body anatomically so the general nature fills in a lot of gaps for us.





MJS said:


> Am I safe to assume, that at some point in the training, a random, unscripted tech. is worked on?



NEVER.  At least not on purpose.  When we train I have developed it so that the students don't even have to touch each other so it is pretty hard to do anyway.  The only time something flies in is during the sumo-styled matches we do - in the moment things happen when you are doing dynamic partner drilling but nothing is EVER planned as unscripted.


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## Tez3 (Jan 13, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> I appreciate your honesty. I also completely understand your point. Unfortunately, due to events that occurred over an MMA school where I was the head coach and a malicious internet forum full of people hell bent on discarding the truth along with all the subsequent fall out over it I will NOT be releasing any specifics. I know I know - its fine if you don't want to or can't find good reason to believe me - again I understand your points. All I can say is that I am telling you the truth and have no reason to lie. I guess I should just keep silent about things that I am not willing to provide truth over its just I was hoping someone would look past me and test what I was saying instead. I can also say that if you try what I am suggesting then you will find the same results I did and they are much better than average.
> 
> I guess on the conceptual level what I do and advocate isn't different than what you do without the sparring. I do believe the "way" we do it and the specific training we've worked on is different, but conceptually I am sure you are mostly right.
> 
> ...




This is the internet, obviously, I have no way of knowing who you are, where you train, who you've trained with. I don't know who or what Jacksons gym is or who Jones may be so it means little or nothing I'm afraid. that's negative I know but there's nothing in your posts to convince me that you do MMA even other than my willingness to believe what is on here.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 13, 2012)

@*jasonbrinn*

UFC 1 Guys fought practically bare knuckle, and there were less Rules. And many Strikes hadnt been illegalised yet.










Notice how the Bouts are alot shorter than most Modern Bouts?
Theres also a whole lot more continuous Striking. This was before it was all about Combinations, and shooting for Takedowns. If anything, They probably changed the way it went so that those Styles of Fighting were less commonplace. The UFC is an entertainment competition outlet. People would tire quickly of seeing how someone got beaten down 'this time'.

Theyd hold their own just fine.
Everything has to evolve, but that does not mean it has to evolve away from itself.
You are free to have your standpoint, but ruling out Methods such as Sparring and Rolling is impractical. Not doing them personally? Sure. But what doesnt work for You, might work wonders for someone else.
I recall when I first went to a Boxing Gym. Punch a bag for two hours. Come back two days later. Spar for 2 hours. The improvement was exponentially noticeable.
You can achieve similar improvements doing drills, but without Pressure Training, I do not believe You can reach Your full potential.
I am able to accept that You Train differently to that; But that doesnt make it the only effective way to Train. 
Football causes People to be fit. Not because of the Exercise, but because blunt trauma to the Bones strengthens them. The risk of injury is there, but the Fitness combined with the regulatory impacts strengthens the practitioner. And as Twin Fist said - Practice to get hit in the head by being hit in the head. And so on and so forth.

EDIT: We sometimes get Students whove done Self Defense Classes. They tend to try and be too "Someone does this so Ill do this"; When one of us interrupts their predefined response, They dont know what to do. Sparring can easily fix this.


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 13, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> This is the internet, obviously, I have no way of knowing who you are, where you train, who you've trained with. I don't know who or what Jacksons gym is or who Jones may be so it means little or nothing I'm afraid. that's negative I know but there's nothing in your posts to convince me that you do MMA even other than my willingness to believe what is on here.



Greg Jackson's Gym
Jon "Bones" Jones

He trained with them - wasn't coached or taught by them.

Everyone's entitled to their opinions but that doesn't mean they will necessarily be insightful or correct.

The two fights back to back were the "sanctioned" events parameters not ours.  

MMA is all about the show sir.  The promoters are looking to create exciting fights.  Plus when you know you're better trained than it isn't that much of a concern.


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## ETinCYQX (Jan 13, 2012)

I really don't get how people expect to train without sparring. You can't really be effective if you don't spar.


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## Never_A_Reflection (Jan 13, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> MMA is all about the show sir.  The promoters are looking to create exciting fights.  *Plus when you know you're better trained than it isn't that much of a concern*.



I have a question regarding this, if you would be so kind as to answer it.  You have said, several times, that training scripted drills without any sparring makes you a better fighter according to the research you have done.  How did you test that?  The MMA fighter that you mention is obvious, but you have mentioned that you do it for everyone so I would like to know how you have tested this theory. Thanks!


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## MJS (Jan 13, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> Not even once.  Not a single punch - nothing!  He trained the entire time with me without one sparring match - in fact when he went into his first fight he had NEVER in his entire life even been hit by anyone - not a single fight or anything!



Well, I'll admit Jason, I'm a bit confused as to how this is even possible.  I don't do MMA, but to me, it'd seem like sparring is, well, pretty much a given.  Unless its something you'd rather not share, I'd be interested in hearing how this is done.







> YES - I FULLY believe that rolling is BAD!  I coached BJJ for quite a while and for the last 5 years or so kept people from rolling - they all did much better and won...a lot.  Boxing to me is slightly different just cause of the rules - now I don't believe sparring helps even for boxing but in boxing you almost have to due to all of the limitations.  If I trained someone I still probably wouldn't let them spar even in boxing.



Since we're talking about 2 things here, I'll address each one.

BJJ: How can you test your locks, chokes, etc, without rolling?  

Boxing:  I'm confused....how is it something thats ok for boxing, but not BJJ?  I understand that there're limitations, but when we think about it, even training empty hand self defense techniques, we still have to adhere to a set of rules.  In other words, a tech. that may require me to poke the eyes, well, obviously I can't do that, so I simulate or raise the strike slightly and hit the forehead or cheek.  The same with an armlock....I'm still limited as to what i can do, otherwise, I'll injure my partners arm.  






> C4-C5 Spinal fusion.  I spent a year in the VA with them trying to figure it out.  I actually took a few challenges and sparred a lot during the time before my surgery - I coached an MMA school in a very competitive region and guys would show up each night wanting to spar or roll with me so I had no choice - there was a lot of drama and I wasn't going to let some meathead looking to prove a point hurt any of my students.  I would always say after a match that I didn't feel the full power in my right arm and just thought I had a shoulder cuff injury or something. But the pain got MUCH MUCH worse!



Ouch.  Well, you're lucky to be walking and training. 







> Actually no.  If it doesn't work for the smallest and weakest then we don't train it - seriously.  We attack the body anatomically so the general nature fills in a lot of gaps for us.



But you still have to take height into consideration, no?  My wife is 5'3.  I wouldn't expect her to hit someone alot taller, in the face.  I remember one Kenpo class that I was teaching.  Short female, tall male were working together.  She was having the hardest time reaching his face.  She said, "I'm having a hard time.  The strike is supposed to go to the face but I can't reach and because of that, the rest of the technique isnt working."  I simply adjusted her target area.  Sure, for the sake of the textbook tech., yes, the strikes have certain areas, but in reality, adjustments will need to be made.  If someone moves, that movement could easuly throw off the rest of your tech, thus your need for adapting.  I'm just having a hard time seeing how everything can be a 1 size fits all, for lack of better wording.







> NEVER.  At least not on purpose.  When we train I have developed it so that the students don't even have to touch each other so it is pretty hard to do anyway.  The only time something flies in is during the sumo-styled matches we do - in the moment things happen when you are doing dynamic partner drilling but nothing is EVER planned as unscripted.



How does a student get used to contact?  How are they preparing for unscripted if its never trained?  I recall a time, when I was doing a technique line in class.  Actually it was more of a circle.  1 student in the middle, and I'd point to one on the outter rim to attack, with an attack of my choice.  One day, I had called out an attack that I knew the student didn't have a preset tech. for.  They just stood there, and said that they didn't know a tech for that attack.  I asked them if they knew how to block, punch, kick, and move, to which they said yes.  I said, good, then do it!   I did this a few more times, but as I said earlier, because it was new to some, I slowed the pace down.  

The point of me doing this, was to still have a controlled setting, but random attacks were coming. I dont know Jason, maybe this is something that I'd have to see live and in person, but I'm just not seeing how training can be done without contact and non scripted work.


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 13, 2012)

Never_A_Reflection said:


> I have a question regarding this, if you would be so kind as to answer it.  You have said, several times, that training scripted drills without any sparring makes you a better fighter according to the research you have done.  How did you test that?  The MMA fighter that you mention is obvious, but you have mentioned that you do it for everyone so I would like to know how you have tested this theory. Thanks!



Fair enough question and the answer is simply that I haven't always thought that way.  I came to believe what I do from training and sparring recording the results making adjustments and repeating.  Once I started seeing the shifting pattern I started working specific tests against the theory using one traditionally trained group versus an almost identical group trained in different ways.  After a decent time training I would have them spar and the results were beyond chance or normal variance.

By this time I had a few different training groups spread about.  When I got new groups I would train them the "new" way from the start and when the groups came together for group training the "new" groups always did more favorably.  After a little while longer I made the change completely.

Now, I say "Don't fight to train, train to fight" but that is for training.  I have had plenty of students compete in plenty of different events.  A very high percentage of those students have won their events.  Also, I have had students go onto to train with other teachers over time and each of those students have done well above the norm in those endeavors becoming instructors in very short periods of time (usually about half or more of the norm).

I don't say these things for any other reason than they are facts - facts supporting the research.  I don't have a school, don't run a seminar circuit teaching these things, don't charge for a set of DVDs or have an upcoming commercial outing based around these.  My name in the MA world is mud thanks to a few unscrupulous individuals who effectively ruined any career I might have continuing to work within it professionally (I state all of this to convey I have no reason to lie or need anyone to believe me).

These are just the facts I found.  I put them out cause it is what I know to be true.  I hope it helps someone.  I highly suggest testing the ideas yourself and see if it works for you.  What would be the harm in doing a little honest research?  If you are not willing to test things outside of your preferred preference then you will always find proof supporting your own preference, however, honestly seeking truth no matter where it might lead you could potentially take you to a new place - or just reconfirm your current position.  To become different from what we are, we must have some awareness of what we are.  If any style teaches you a method of fighting, then you might be able to fight according to the limit of that method, but that is not fighting.  It&#8217;s not how much you have learned, but how much you have absorbed from what you have learned.


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 13, 2012)

MJS said:


> Well, I'll admit Jason, I'm a bit confused as to how this is even possible.  I don't do MMA, but to me, it'd seem like sparring is, well, pretty much a given.  Unless its something you'd rather not share, I'd be interested in hearing how this is done.



Through drilling what he would need to do when he did fight - not trying to be short here but it would be a lot to write down completely - maybe we could talk via phone or email?



MJS said:


> BJJ: How can you test your locks, chokes, etc, without rolling?



The same way you do SD techs in a non-sparring format.  And again, I am not against competing and fighting, only doing it for training.



MJS said:


> Boxing:  I'm confused....how is it something thats ok for boxing, but not BJJ?  I understand that there're limitations, but when we think about it, even training empty hand self defense techniques, we still have to adhere to a set of rules.  In other words, a tech. that may require me to poke the eyes, well, obviously I can't do that, so I simulate or raise the strike slightly and hit the forehead or cheek.  The same with an armlock....I'm still limited as to what i can do, otherwise, I'll injure my partners arm.


 
Boxing is designed as a sport to create hits.  A lot of boxing is based off of being hit.  The rules and construction of the sport means you most likely can't fully train for it unless you practice that aspect.



MJS said:


> But you still have to take height into consideration, no?  My wife is 5'3.  I wouldn't expect her to hit someone alot taller, in the face.  I remember one Kenpo class that I was teaching.  Short female, tall male were working together.  She was having the hardest time reaching his face.  She said, "I'm having a hard time.  The strike is supposed to go to the face but I can't reach and because of that, the rest of the technique isnt working."  I simply adjusted her target area.  Sure, for the sake of the textbook tech., yes, the strikes have certain areas, but in reality, adjustments will need to be made.  If someone moves, that movement could easuly throw off the rest of your tech, thus your need for adapting.  I'm just having a hard time seeing how everything can be a 1 size fits all, for lack of better wording.



If he is going to attack her I bet he is going to get within range to strike 



MJS said:


> How does a student get used to contact?  How are they preparing for unscripted if its never trained?  I recall a time, when I was doing a technique line in class.  Actually it was more of a circle.  1 student in the middle, and I'd point to one on the outter rim to attack, with an attack of my choice.  One day, I had called out an attack that I knew the student didn't have a preset tech. for.  They just stood there, and said that they didn't know a tech for that attack.  I asked them if they knew how to block, punch, kick, and move, to which they said yes.  I said, good, then do it!   I did this a few more times, but as I said earlier, because it was new to some, I slowed the pace down.
> 
> The point of me doing this, was to still have a controlled setting, but random attacks were coming. I dont know Jason, maybe this is something that I'd have to see live and in person, but I'm just not seeing how training can be done without contact and non scripted work.



The drill you just described expounds my point.  Everyone always says you can't train for ever situation in the street.  We also say that the one situation you don't train for is probably going to be the one you are presented with right?  Well, you asked the student can he punch, kick, block.  In my system that is all we do so the student isn't searching for a reaction to do they only do what they know and since that is all they train they do IT very well and without hesitation.


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## Tez3 (Jan 13, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> Greg Jackson's Gym
> Jon "Bones" Jones
> 
> He trained with them - wasn't coached or taught by them.
> ...




Sir? I don't think so!
We promote but we look to do it in such a way that the spectators watch good fights and the fighters are evenly matched. If someone suggests two fights in one night we say no, both from a promoters and a manager/coaches point of view, it simply isn't sensible or safe to have two potentially bruising fights back to back. We don't put novices up against the experienced guys either, you don't get entertaining fights nor safe ones from that.
"When you know you are better trained....." that has the sound of famous last words, however well you think you are trained, the better fighter *on the night *will win, which isn't always the 'better trained' one. I can't remember who said it, perhaps someone here will, but they said if you win all your fights you're not fighting the right people.

If your fighter trained with them ( sorry still don't know who either are) did he then excuse himself from sparring or did he join in? I think the latter is most likely don't you? 
The thing is my opinion about sparring is not just my opinion, it's that of everyone here, which must in martial arts years add up to a couple of centuries at least worth of martial arts experience plus that of the top MMA people in the world, they all spar and roll. The most successful fighters spar and roll, if there was something better they would be doing it, they are professional fighters always looking for that edge over other fighters, if not sparring was that edge they would be doing it and the rest of us too, that we aren't speaks volumes. If it ain't broke don't fix it.


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 13, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Sir? I don't think so!
> We promote but we look to do it in such a way that the spectators watch good fights and the fighters are evenly matched. If someone suggests two fights in one night we say no, both from a promoters and a manager/coaches point of view, it simply isn't sensible or safe to have two potentially bruising fights back to back. We don't put novices up against the experienced guys either, you don't get entertaining fights nor safe ones from that.
> "When you know you are better trained....." that has the sound of famous last words, however well you think you are trained, the better fighter *on the night *will win, which isn't always the 'better trained' one. I can't remember who said it, perhaps someone here will, but they said if you win all your fights you're not fighting the right people.
> 
> ...



Sorry about the sir thing.

You make the assumption that everyone does what they do cause they have tried everything else.  Just take a look at your responses to me - you reject what I am saying based on popular belief.  The only way you can conduct honest research is to test everything and let the data speak for itself.


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## elder999 (Jan 13, 2012)

jasonbrinn;[URL="tel:1453087" said:
			
		

> 1453087[/URL]]Greg Jackson's Gym
> Jon "Bones" Jones
> 
> He trained with them - wasn't coached or taught by them.



Not quite waving the "BS" flag here, _yet_, but I've known Greg Jackson for nearly 18 years-his was the first school I visited in *Albuquerque, NEW MEXICO* (not "Arizona") when I moved here in '94, and it was just "Jackson's Gaidojutsu., He's just a phone call away-as in a _personal cell_ phone call away, so I'd like to know the young heavyweight's name, please.

Or should I just ask him about _you_?


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## Twin Fist (Jan 13, 2012)

now things have gotten intersting


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## Tez3 (Jan 13, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> Sorry about the sir thing.
> 
> You make the assumption that everyone does what they do cause they have tried everything else. Just take a look at your responses to me - you reject what I am saying based on popular belief. The only way you can conduct honest research is to test everything and let the data speak for itself.




Ok so I post up saying that I've found the best way to train is to wear flippers, that I know this to be true, I've researched it extensively and it works. My un-named fighter has won all his fights training this way. I won't put up my research so you'll have to take what I say as being true. If I keep saying I'm right and you are wrong I will convince everyone eventually especially if I try and belittle people and make them seem ignorant and closeminded.


It seems I can't win with you, on one hand you say an opinion, mine, isn't correct and isn't insightful then when I point out it's not just my opinion but others too you accuse me of believing something because everyone else does. 

If you posted your 'honest research' it would go a long way to showing us that you have a genuine theory, why should we take your seriously when you are asking us to take on faith what you say? If I were to take you at your word and stop our fighters sparring as you say, I would be putting their safety at risk. I have no solid evidence to prove that if they stopped sparring they would improve, every instinct I have as well as experience ( and that of people on here) tells me that not sparring will hamper them and therefore put them at risk, I'm not willing in the least to do this on just your say so I'm afraid. Provide proof and I'm willing to take this seriously, until then I'm sorry it's not my life and health I would be putting at risk in the cage but of people that trust me so despite your trying to make out I'm ignorant and closed minded, I will not be trying your 'method' of training.

Elder, please do call, I would like this nailed because what I'd hate to see is a young would be fighter following this training method without any proof it works. I would go so far as saying that as far as MMA is concerned this is potentionally dangerous because of insufficient preparation for a fight. Others can judge it's potential danger/risk in their own styles of a lack of sparring.


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 13, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Ok so I post up saying that I've found the best way to train is to wear flippers, that I know this to be true, I've researched it extensively and it works. My un-named fighter has won all his fights training this way. I won't put up my research so you'll have to take what I say as being true. If I keep saying I'm right and you are wrong I will convince everyone eventually especially if I try and belittle people and make them seem ignorant and closeminded.
> 
> 
> It seems I can't win with you, on one hand you say an opinion, mine, isn't correct and isn't insightful then when I point out it's not just my opinion but others too you accuse me of believing something because everyone else does.
> ...



Here we go.  It has been proven cause he went undefeated while training the method.  He currently doesnt train under me anymore, no one does, so don't worry your pretty little head over it ok.  I said I got injured recently and do not teach anymore.


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## MJS (Jan 13, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> Through drilling what he would need to do when he did fight - not trying to be short here but it would be a lot to write down completely - maybe we could talk via phone or email?



Yeah, we may have to go that route, as I'm still not following you.





> The same way you do SD techs in a non-sparring format.  And again, I am not against competing and fighting, only doing it for training.



I think we're on the same page with your first statement.  However, after I drill them in the controlled, compliant, scripted setting, I move to the random, unscripted setting.  Just like someone who does BJJ, and learns a new choke....works it slow, then more pressure, then rolling.





> Boxing is designed as a sport to create hits.  A lot of boxing is based off of being hit.  The rules and construction of the sport means you most likely can't fully train for it unless you practice that aspect.



Well, sure, IMO, alot of things in the arts, require being hit.  





> If he is going to attack her I bet he is going to get within range to strike



Of course, but if the guy is 6'3, and she's 5'3, hitting his face, eyes, throat, etc, would be foolish.  She'd no doubt, have to adapt, and change her strikes to other targets within her reach.





> The drill you just described expounds my point.  Everyone always says you can't train for ever situation in the street.  We also say that the one situation you don't train for is probably going to be the one you are presented with right?  Well, you asked the student can he punch, kick, block.  In my system that is all we do so the student isn't searching for a reaction to do they only do what they know and since that is all they train they do IT very well and without hesitation.



But again, that was unscripted, to a point.  Yes, they knew the attack, just not a preset defense.  They had to make that up on the fly.  The next step, following that process, would be totally unscripted.....they're in the middle, I point to someone and tell them to attack any way they want.  Granted, in the beginning, this can still be done at a 1/4-1/2 speed pace.


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 13, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Not quite waving the "BS" flag here, _yet_, but I've known Greg Jackson for nearly 18 years-his was the first school I visited in *Albuquerque, NEW MEXICO* (not "Arizona") when I moved here in '94, and it was just "Jackson's Gaidojutsu., He's just a phone call away-as in a _personal cell_ phone call away, so I'd like to know the young heavyweight's name, please.
> 
> Or should I just ask him about _you_?



Go ahead if you like - I DON'T LIE.  They have a program where you can literally live in at the gym which is what my guy did.  Sorry I put in AZ I just had a brain freeze or something - i helped send him there including making all the calls to Greg's business partner (who is the only person I ever talked with - not Greg) so I do know where it is.

If you want the kid's name then you are going to have to call me to get it (_personal information redacted per Rules 1.5_) - he doesn't deserve to have his name tied to crap like this  
Who cares people - believe me or don't - test it or don't.  But whatever you do don't make judgements about people you don't know cause, at least with me, you might just be wrong.


note** it took me a second to grab the records but Greg's partner's name was/is Ricky Kottenstette.  The cost of the dorm then was $500/month and my guy went out there in 10/21/09.  PLEASE don't use my guys name here if you figure it out!  This is about my ideas not my guy - i only used his experience to back up the data and trials.


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## Tez3 (Jan 13, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> Here we go. It has been proven cause he went undefeated while training the method. He currently doesnt train under me anymore, no one does, so don't worry your pretty little head over it ok. I said I got injured recently and do not teach anymore.




Well, well, well. gloves off now I take it?


Dear boy, the thing is this...you posted up your method, you stated it worked and you stated it without proof and you are surprised, shocked and hurt we didn't immediately go 'cor, that's amazing mate, we will do what you say and have winners in no time'. So? 

We shot you down, there's two things you can do, you can whinge like buggery that you are a misunderstood genius unappreciated in your own lunchtime or you can shrug, re-read your posts and say, well yeah perhaps they have a point about wanting proof. And the thing is....I don't really care which you do, I don't know who you are and I haven't made a judgement about you, mostly because I can't be bother to waste my time but also because I'm judging what you SAY because you posted it up for that reason, for our evaluation...only there is nothing to evaluate because you won't post any proof, no names, no dates, no scientific data, nowt. So no I won't worry my pretty little head ( I usually save that for Glasgow kisses) about you, I didn't before so can't see a reason to start now.


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 13, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Well, well, well. gloves off now I take it?
> 
> 
> Dear boy, the thing is this...you posted up your method, you stated it worked and you stated it without proof and you are surprised, shocked and hurt we didn't immediately go 'cor, that's amazing mate, we will do what you say and have winners in no time'. So?
> ...



I made a mistake posting my ideas.  I won't do it again.  Sorry everyone.  Sorry if my ideas irritated anyone.  Thank you to each and everyone who participated for your time and consideration.


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## Tez3 (Jan 13, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> I made a mistake posting my ideas. I won't do it again. Sorry everyone. Sorry if my ideas irritated anyone. Thank you to each and everyone who participated for your time and consideration.




Actually you didn't irritate anyone, what you did was to post your theory. We were interested in it, asked questions etc but you wouldn't give us anything in the way of proof. You said it worked, we couldn't see how but you just kept saying, it works, it works but we can't take something like that on faith I'm afraid. I'm not putting fighter's health etc at risk because of an unproven, to us, theory. If you can't see that and think you've been hard done by, you are wrong.


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## The Last Legionary (Jan 13, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> he doesn't deserve to have his name tied to crap like this



Then maybe you should stop bringing him up?


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## elder999 (Jan 13, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> Go ahead if you like - I DON'T LIE. They have a program where you can literally live in at the gym which is what my guy did. Sorry I put in AZ I just had a brain freeze or something - i helped send him there including making all the calls to Greg's business partner (who is the only person I ever talked with - not Greg) so I do know where it is.
> 
> If you want the kid's name then you are going to have to call me to get it (919-559-2922 is my personal cell and I am available now or whenever) - he doesn't deserve to have his name tied to crap like this
> Who cares people - believe me or don't - test it or don't. But whatever you do don't make judgements about people you don't know cause, at least with me, you might just be wrong.
> ...



_*Greg Jackson doesn't care about money. *_The four dorm rooms above the gym have almost always been *free,* _not _$500/month-they started charging that for staying *and* training in 2010. His classes are downright cheap too, by most standards-part of the reason why the mat is always so crowded. He doesn't even take a percentage of his fighter's purses, as a rule-though most of them "make a donation to Mrs. Jackson." :lol:

EDIT: Here's an article on Jackson's MMA, from November of 2009. 

A notable quote from the article:



> Over the top of the gym is a dormitory for fighters thatis typically at double capacity. It is spartan but *the rent*​*can&#8217;t be beat, as Jackson charges nothing to stay there*.


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## jks9199 (Jan 13, 2012)

Ladies and gentlemen,

Let's get back to the topic, and keep it polite & friendly.

Jim Sheeran
jks9199
MT Asst. Administrator


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## elder999 (Jan 13, 2012)

Well, alrighty then.

I'll reserve my answer to the whole "what is sparring," thing for now-as for "is it worth doing?" I'd answer,*Yes*, if done with proper coaching and supervision-but that shouldn't be a surprise.

I have a question for Jason, though-Jason, how is your "scripted sparring" any different from _ippon kumite_, _sanbon kumite _and_ kiso kumite?

_Or even_ gohon kumite?_


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## Tez3 (Jan 14, 2012)

Just a minor point, all fighters records are a matter of public record, they are in the public domain in other words so there's no 'secrets'. They will be on a list on a website somewhere.

I've said all I can about sparring,  the best I've got back from Jason is a patronising, spiteful post so really I can't add anything more.


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## elder999 (Jan 15, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I've said all I can about sparring, the best I've got back from Jason is a patronising, spiteful post so really I can't add anything more.




Looks like he got scared, or decided to take his little red wagon somewhere else to play........

........my guess is, we'll never hear from him again.







:lfao:


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## K-man (Jan 16, 2012)

Now that things have quietened a little.  Some MAs, ie aikido, have very little in the way of 'free' sparring and I would suggest that an aikidoka would be training for many years before that training could be relied upon in a street fight. I've been training aikido for five years now but wouldn't trust it alone. Combined with my karate, great. Hit hard, hit often and if an arm bar happens it happens.

To my mind it is the type of sparring that is important.  I have discarded 'point' sparring as irrelevant to 'self defence'.  If you're into tournaments then you need to spar that way. However, I don't believe that type of sparring is what guys like Chojun Miyagi had in mind when they were training.  

For me, the sparring is continuous and close. We normally practise at less than full speed but it does get willing.  Often we will put on full head protection and go a bit harder.  Even so, it is still not reality as we generally leave out the 'nasties' such as eye gouges, throat strikes pointy elbows etc.  

There are different forms of sparring designed with different purposes in mind.  If what you practise works for you in what you want to achieve, then go for it. I can understand where Jason was coming from but I'm not sure it would work for me, but each to their own.


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## thegatekeeper (Jan 16, 2012)

In my opinion, sparring is where the true skills are learned. You learn how to defend, how to dodge, how to hit a moving target, etc. Bag work is use full, but what can you learn in the long run from a stationary target?


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## Tez3 (Jan 16, 2012)

K-man said:


> Now that things have quietened a little. Some MAs, ie aikido, have very little in the way of 'free' sparring and I would suggest that an aikidoka would be training for many years before that training could be relied upon in a street fight. I've been training aikido for five years now but wouldn't trust it alone. Combined with my karate, great. Hit hard, hit often and if an arm bar happens it happens.
> 
> To my mind it is the type of sparring that is important. I have discarded 'point' sparring as irrelevant to 'self defence'. If you're into tournaments then you need to spar that way. However, I don't believe that type of sparring is what guys like Chojun Miyagi had in mind when they were training.
> 
> ...




It depends what you train, if you are training people for  MMA which Jason said he had, then sparring, freestyle and with a certain amount of contact is necessary if not vital as preparation for that competition. People who enter ski jump competitions for example train by jumping off ski jumps, there's no avoiding it, same as MMA you have to be able to spar. It's like learning to walk before you run. You simply cannot get into the ring/cage, hit and be hit without having learnt to spar first as Jason suggests, it's foolish and dangerous to be honest.


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## MJS (Jan 16, 2012)

K-man said:


> Now that things have quietened a little. Some MAs, ie aikido, have very little in the way of 'free' sparring and I would suggest that an aikidoka would be training for many years before that training could be relied upon in a street fight. I've been training aikido for five years now but wouldn't trust it alone. Combined with my karate, great. Hit hard, hit often and if an arm bar happens it happens.
> 
> To my mind it is the type of sparring that is important. I have discarded 'point' sparring as irrelevant to 'self defence'. If you're into tournaments then you need to spar that way. However, I don't believe that type of sparring is what guys like Chojun Miyagi had in mind when they were training.
> 
> ...



Good post!!   Like you said, obviously things have limitations, even working our techniques, but as its been said, sparring is important.  IMO, it gives the person a chance to work on a variety of things.  Personally, I'm not much for the point sparring, I prefer the continuous.  

Like Tez said....I'm not seeing how someone who trains MMA, could possibly not spar.


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## MJS (Jan 16, 2012)

thegatekeeper said:


> In my opinion, sparring is where the true skills are learned. You learn how to defend, how to dodge, how to hit a moving target, etc. Bag work is use full, but what can you learn in the long run from a stationary target?



Good points!  Bagwork, just like doing a technique slow, is good for fine tuning, and refining the basics.  IMHO, you need to test yourself, and that test comes in the form of sparring and unscripted techniques.


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## Chris Parker (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm pretty well known here for not being a fan of sparring, really (and, for the record, I use the term to refer to a more "competitive" format, with two people trying to out-perform each other in a similar skillset under known conditions/rules), but that's mainly to do with the aims and requirements of my systems. When looking at sporting systems, such as MMA, I consider sparring to be an absolute necessity. It just comes down to the reasons for the system, and what it needs.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 16, 2012)

Sparring to me is, like Chris said, a term I refer to only when talking about competive or sport systems. I do not find it an effective means for training self defense in any way as there is a sort of back and forth mentality in sparring as opposed to the attacker defender mentality of self-defense, or even the sense of urgency that must be fostered between mutal combatants who are fighting in a life or death context.

It is absolutely necessary for any competitive format whether it is point sparring, light contact, full contact, or grappling.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 16, 2012)

I consider "Sparring" in a Not-Sport Context to be Unscripted Striking/Grappling Exchange Practice. It has its uses, if its done right.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 16, 2012)

we simply refer to what we do when it is time to test it as pressure testing or "true" randori. In our school you do the kata, have a cooperative uke and learn the principle. Once you can do it decently you add more and more resistance, then allow uke to counter, then create a situation where there is no defined uke or tori (receiver or applier of technique) and who ever gets to it first "wins". Occassionally we put on head gear, fingerless gloves, and maybe a chest protector to go a little rougher. When we do that we find that people actually attack differently than when doing a scripted drill. Its as though wearing head gear and gloves and what not now makes it"okay" to really try to hit your partner even though that is what they should be doing in the first place anyway. 

We don't call it sparring though; even if what I described sounds like what you call sparring, to us it is not because it is not supposed to be competitive. It is supposed to be a learning aid for execution of the technique in a real life context. For us the purpose of the randori is to see not only can you do the technique under pressure but can your tactic beat the other person's tactic.


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## MJS (Jan 17, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> we simply refer to what we do when it is time to test it as pressure testing or "true" randori. In our school you do the kata, have a cooperative uke and learn the principle. Once you can do it decently you add more and more resistance, then allow uke to counter, then create a situation where there is no defined uke or tori (receiver or applier of technique) and who ever gets to it first "wins". Occassionally we put on head gear, fingerless gloves, and maybe a chest protector to go a little rougher. When we do that we find that people actually attack differently than when doing a scripted drill. Its as though wearing head gear and gloves and what not now makes it"okay" to really try to hit your partner even though that is what they should be doing in the first place anyway.
> 
> We don't call it sparring though; even if what I described sounds like what you call sparring, to us it is not because it is not supposed to be competitive. It is supposed to be a learning aid for execution of the technique in a real life context. For us the purpose of the randori is to see not only can you do the technique under pressure but can your tactic beat the other person's tactic.



I do this too, in addition to the regular sparring.  I think that it can appear to be sparring, as you said, although it isn't.  But, I do think that even if the intent isn't to 'spar' per se, it could turn into that, if the original goal isn't kept in mind.  That goal being to simply pressure test your techinques.


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 17, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Looks like he got scared, or decided to take his little red wagon somewhere else to play........
> 
> ........my guess is, we'll never hear from him again.
> 
> :lfao:



Scared of what?  teh internet.  No sir, I am not scared.  

What's the point of continuing to post when people just attack you personally because they don't like your opinions.  Not to mention people posting false accusations and bad information....such as

elder999 posted a quote about Jackson's dorm rooms being free - well maybe they are/were but they sure charged us $500/month when our guy was there so what does this quote do other than try to cast doubt on the statements I made.

I plainly stated my belief - sparring sucks, I stated why I believe in it "trash in trash out", I gave examples of scenarios where I had tested my theory and the results.  What happened - people posted links to crappy false web forums spewing lies about me and then people here treated me with not much more respect.

If I stand alone I stand alone - I am not going to compromise my beliefs or the TRUTH to fit in and have people like me.  I don't lie and everything I have said is the truth and verifiable.

At the end of the day, who wants to play in any sandbox where kids insist on throwing sand in your face.


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## Tez3 (Jan 17, 2012)

Jason, you didn't actually post any proof that your experiments actually showed that sparring 'sucks', you haven't given us anything to go on other than you insisting what you are saying is true. You must see that without anything to go on we have to go with what we know works. Your saying 'well I'm right and you'll have to take my word for it' isn't going to cut it. I for one don't know you from Adam, disregarding anything form anywhere else I don't honestly know if you are a martial artist even, I'm sure you are but can you see our difficulties in believing what you are saying? You won't say who your fighter is, where he fought and against whom, you won't give us any factual evidence to prove what you are saying works. If I said I was a fighter with an unbeaten record of 25-0-0 but refused to give you my name, where I fought and on what promotions and I did it entirely on a diet of bananas and nothing else would you believe it because I wrote it on here?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 17, 2012)

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

If I claimed that I had inherited the grandmastership of an obscure and ancient ninjutsu ryu at the age of eighteen from an old Japanese man who was the janitor at my high school and taught me in secret because he admired my fighting spirit, then everyone here would laugh at me unless I could provide some really compelling evidence.  This is because such a story would fly in the face of what is known about traditional Japanese martial arts in general and ninjutsu in particular by those who study such arts.

If I claimed that my tameshiwari was so powerful that I could break a Chevy engine block in two with a downward elbow strike and chop down an oak tree with my knife hand, then everyone here would laugh at me unless I could provide a demonstration.  That's because such feats are not humanly possible according to what we know about the limits of the human body.

If I claimed that I trained students to compete in MMA and BJJ and those students were successful and won championships against tough competition without ever sparring or rolling in their training, then no one here would believe me unless I could provide names, dates, and events and that information could be independently verified.  That is because MMA and BJJ, as well as Judo, Boxing, and Muay Thai, all require some form of sparring or randori as part of the training regimen for success.  There is *no one* competing in the UFC who has not spent a *lot* of time sparring.  There is *no one* competing at high levels in Judo or BJJ who has not spent a *lot* of time doing randori.  Everyone who trains seriously in those arts knows the difference that time spent with sparring/randori makes.  If I want to claim that I've discovered an approach to training which allows practitioners to skip all the pain and risk of sparring but still win in competition, then the burden is on me to provide some serious evidence.  

BTW, Jason, I notice that now you are claiming not only  to have trained this one MMA competitor to a championship without sparring, but also to have trained a number of BJJ competitors to compete successfully without rolling.  Once again, I'd need verifiable names, dates, events to believe a word of that.  I've spent a fair amount of time in BJJ and I've never seen anyone accomplish much of anything in the art without a significant investment of time in rolling.  Cooperative drilling is important, but it can't be everything.


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## elder999 (Jan 18, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> After conversations on another thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...-open-sparring-sessions&p=1452542#post1452542, thought a new thread on what sparring is, how we do it and whether it's worth doing would be in order. I'll let others start off lol!


 


elder999 said:


> Well, alrighty then.
> 
> I'll reserve my answer to the whole "what is sparring," thing for now-as for "is it worth doing?" I'd answer,*Yes*, if done with proper coaching and supervision-but that shouldn't be a surprise.



So, as far as &#8220;free-sparring&#8221; goes, proper coaching and supervision are necessary-precisely for the reasons that Jason thinks &#8220;sparring sucks.&#8221; The popular saying is that _Practice makes *permanent,*\_ and _*perfect* practice makes perfect._ Inasmuch as is feasible, it is absolutely necessary for combat sports, and a good tool for a variety of self-defense scenarios and other martial art forms-though not the be all an end all, and not practicable for a variety of methods. With that said, traditional jujutsu forms and their corollaries drill without free sparring, and sometimes without even moderate judo randori. Likewise, free sparring wasn&#8217;t always a part of traditional karate, and there are traditionalists who manage to do without it. Indeed, I learned and teach Miyama ryu jujutsu with the same sort of training that Mr. Brinn is describing, and people have used its methods for self-defense quite successfully for decades-myself included. Karate&#8217;s one step and three step sparring are great for learning timing _tai sabaki_ and _ma-ai_, and can be done with a variety of tempos and &#8220;scripts.&#8221;

Competing in a free-form format, though? Not without sparring-not very likely, anyway.



jasonbrinn said:


> Scared of what? teh internet. No sir, I am not scared.



Heheh&#8230;.:lfao:








jasonbrinn said:


> What's the point of continuing to post when people just attack you personally because they don't like your opinions. Not to mention people posting false accusations and bad information....such as
> elder999 posted a quote about Jackson's dorm rooms being free - well maybe they are/were but they sure charged us $500/month when our guy was there so what does this quote do other than try to cast doubt on the statements I made.




MartialTalk has a policy against fraud busting, Jason-we&#8217;re not Bullshido, and, frankly, I don&#8217;t care if you&#8217;re lying or not. 

How do you tell a liar, though? He constantly screams that he&#8217;s &#8220;telling the truth,&#8221; rather than simply show the   *facts* of what he has to say and letting _them_ stand. 



jasonbrinn said:


> If I stand alone I stand alone - I am not going to compromise my beliefs or the TRUTH to fit in and have people like me. I don't lie and everything I have said is the truth and verifiable.



Example-you say some as yet unnamed so and so stayed at Jackson&#8217;s back in 2009 for $500 a month. I post a magazine article that says that the rooms were free back then. I didn&#8217;t make the claim, and I didn&#8217;t write the article. The article makes no mention of you, and wasn't directed at you-it merely states a fact, an observation that runs counter to the information you&#8217;ve offered.

Another example-I say that I&#8217;ve trained in so and such a martial art, like&#8230;I dunno, Miyama ryu jujutsu-I say when and where, and who my teachers were, and what my rank was. And I post the http://miyamaryu.org/blackbelts.html Miyama ryu webpage registry of black belts, and , yup-there&#8217;s my name.  People on this board know me from back in the 80's and 90's, before "teh internet," sort of. People know me from tournaments back then, and know who my teachers were-people know who I am, and have an idea of what I do for a living, where I went to school, what I used to do, etc., etc., etc.-but, most especially in regard to martial arts, they have an idea of who I am, and-more imporatantly-that *I am who I say I am.* If I speak with any authority on any of a variety of subjects, well, they know where I'm coming from-from whence that authority emerges-and can deal with me from there.

You, on the other hand, appear to  have trained with a who&#8217;s who of &#8220;never heard of him.&#8221;

Interestingly, you also failed to quote or answer my question:



elder999 said:


> I have a question for Jason, though-Jason, how is your "scripted sparring" any different from _ippon kumite_, _sanbon kumite _and_ kiso kumite?_
> 
> Or even_ gohon kumite?_



which was, after all, an attempt to play nice on my part-to engage with you and not throw sand in your face.


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 18, 2012)

elder999 said:


> MartialTalk has a policy against fraud busting, Jason-we&#8217;re not Bullshido, and, frankly, I don&#8217;t care if you&#8217;re lying or not.
> 
> How do you tell a liar, though? He constantly screams that he&#8217;s &#8220;telling the truth,&#8221; rather than simply show the   *facts* of what he has to say and letting _them_ stand.


For someone who doesn't care about me you sure go out of your way to try and make me look bad here...?

I was stating my belief in a concept - I offered my data merely to suggest that it wasn't just an idea I had driving home one day but something I tested out.  I don't need to prove the system to anyone, myself and my group already have that.  I already said I wasn't giving names on here especially seeing how people with different ideas can be treated.  I mean I could put up a website in 10 seconds saying MJS is a fraud and then come here and simply post a link and say AH HA what does this mean and leave the shadow of doubt out there - how irresponsible and lacking of integrity that would be though.

I have even stated in conclusion that I understood no one believing it and how unfair it was that I won't put up my data and apologized.  But that wasn't good enough for you sir - you had to taunt me and try to tarnish me more by saying I was scared and you probably wouldn't hear from me again as if that would have justified any of your shortsighted and malformed opinions of me.



elder999 said:


> Example-you say some as yet unnamed so and so stayed at Jackson&#8217;s back in 2009 for $500 a month. I post a magazine article that says that the rooms were free back then. I didn&#8217;t make the claim, and I didn&#8217;t write the article. The article makes no mention of you, and wasn't directed at you-it merely states a fact, an observation that runs counter to the information you&#8217;ve offered.


What do you want, the receipts?  Anyone can find an article anywhere just about to support anything.  Is this what you consider research?  Funny how someone who states he doesn't care has time to google for article quotes to cast doubt but not enough follow through to get real results.  You said you could make a phone call - I gave you the exact dates and amounts paid and you already know that the fighter came from Raleigh NC and you can't get this verified?  Strange my friend, strange.



elder999 said:


> Another example-I say that I&#8217;ve trained in so and such a martial art, like&#8230;I dunno, Miyama ryu jujutsu-I say when and where, and who my teachers were, and what my rank was. And I post the  Miyama ryu webpage registry of black belts, and , yup-there&#8217;s my name.  People on this board know me from back in the 80's and 90's, before "teh internet," sort of. People know me from tournaments back then, and know who my teachers were-people know who I am, and have an idea of what I do for a living, where I went to school, what I used to do, etc., etc., etc.-but, most especially in regard to martial arts, they have an idea of who I am, and-more imporatantly-that *I am who I say I am.* If I speak with any authority on any of a variety of subjects, well, they know where I'm coming from-from whence that authority emerges-and can deal with me from there.
> You, on the other hand, appear to  have trained with a who&#8217;s who of &#8220;never heard of him.&#8221;



FACT:  NO ONE that I have ever stated that I trained with has denied it.  So, elder999whatever, where do you draw these false and slanderous claims?  Don't you have anything better to do than make half accusations based on NO research at the expense of honest people like myself?



elder999 said:


> Interestingly, you also failed to quote or answer my question:
> 
> 
> 
> which was, after all, an attempt to play nice on my part-to engage with you and not throw sand in your face.


What we do is different.  It is really just drilling with a partner.  The types of training you mentioned are much more rigid in form than ours.  It would seem the concepts and reasons for doing them are very similar however.

Look - I don't know why you attack me but can;t it just stop.  I don't have a problem with you or anyone on this site.  It was an idea that I was sharing nothing more.  If you don't like me than fine - I can't change that.  If you want to talk and get ALL of my references and numbers than fine - I already gave you my email and phone number plus you could PM me if you want to.  I HAVE trained with everyone I say I have and I have done EXACTLY what I say I have.  If you care to know the truth then try talking to the person you question.

It looks like we have more in common than not.  My first art was Kyokushin and I have a 2nd dan in Daito-ryu.  Why couldn't we just be friends and agree to disagree about how to train? My teachers;

Kenny Buffaloe (kyokushin karate / muay thai)
James Dozia (karate - where I got my 3rd dan)
Brent Angell (shorinji ryu / tai chi chuan)
Duncan Leung (wing chun)
Bill McGrath (pekiti-tirsia through seminars)
Carlos Machado (bjj through seminars - association member in the past)
Carlos Lemos (bjj - direct classes)
Seigo Okamoto (daito ryu - i got my 2nd from him directly - through seminars as he lives in Tokyo - 99% train this way)

I am leaving some out but these are the major contributors to me.


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## MJS (Jan 18, 2012)

Well, I still stand by what I said earlier....sparring, while not the end all/be all, BUT, I still feel that it has its values.  IMO, its just one way to test your stuff.  Yes, we can pressure test our empty hand stand up techniques without sparring, but as I said, that can easily become sparring, if you're not careful.  Nonetheless, I still maintain that unscripted training is key.


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## elder999 (Jan 18, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> What we do is different. It is really just drilling with a partner. The types of training you mentioned are much more rigid in form than ours. It would seem the concepts and reasons for doing them are very similar however.
> .



Care to expand on this? "Different" _how_? "Much more rigid" how? They certainly can be done at any pace and level of intention or contact-so, if the concepts and reasons for doing them are very similar, and they're 'scripted training," how is your "just drilling" _less rigid _and *different*?


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## Cyriacus (Jan 18, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> For someone who doesn't care about me you sure go out of your way to try and make me look bad here...?
> 
> I was stating my belief in a concept - I offered my data merely to suggest that it wasn't just an idea I had driving home one day but something I tested out.  I don't need to prove the system to anyone, myself and my group already have that.  I already said I wasn't giving names on here especially seeing how people with different ideas can be treated.  I mean I could put up a website in 10 seconds saying MJS is a fraud and then come here and simply post a link and say AH HA what does this mean and leave the shadow of doubt out there - how irresponsible and lacking of integrity that would be though.
> 
> ...



Pro Tip: Because Youre implying that other methods are inferior instead of just stating a preference.
Also, I want zero part in this discussion


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## Buka (Jan 18, 2012)

There's a whole lot I don't know about martial arts. There's a whole lot I'll probably never have time to learn. But I do know one thing. If you don't have free sparring, martial arts ain't worth squat.


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## Chris Parker (Jan 19, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> Seigo Okamoto (daito ryu - i got my 2nd from him directly - through seminars as he lives in Tokyo - 99% train this way)



Hi Jason,

Not really wanting to get into the rest of this, but I am interested in your Daito Ryu training. Am I right in reading this as saying that your only Daito Ryu training is at seminars, rather than a more formal, regular training? And you were awarded Nidan for that? And, knowing that each different line of Daito Ryu has different ranking requirements, what was needed for Nidan for yourself?



Buka said:


> There's a whole lot I don't know about martial arts. There's a whole lot I'll probably never have time to learn. But I do know one thing. If you don't have free sparring, martial arts ain't worth squat.



Now, that depends entirely on what the art is teaching, and why and how. None of the systems I train in have sparring as part of their training methodology, and they are about as serious a "martial art" as you can find, and many old systems are the same. I'd also argue strongly against it's usability or necessity for self defence. However, if the art is geared towards sporting applications or similar, then it's indispensable. It just comes down to context and usage, really. 

But to say that "if there isn't free sparring, martial arts ain't worth squat" can be taken as offensively inaccurate. Maybe your art, but not all martial arts. That just needed to be said, really.


----------



## jasonbrinn (Jan 19, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Jason,
> 
> Not really wanting to get into the rest of this, but I am interested in your Daito Ryu training. Am I right in reading this as saying that your only Daito Ryu training is at seminars, rather than a more formal, regular training? And you were awarded Nidan for that? And, knowing that each different line of Daito Ryu has different ranking requirements, what was needed for Nidan for yourself?




Thanks for the question Chris.  As I am sure you know in any koryu art there is only one teacher.  In Daito ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai the shihan is Seigo Okamoto sensei.  Okamoto lives in Tokyo and has schools all around the world.  I was part of the first American school.  

At each school/branch/dokokai "study group" there is appointed a lead.  This lead is in charge of running classes, keeping attendance, etc.  This lead may teach what Okamoto sensei has taught before but this lead is NOT the instructor and does not award rank.  At least 3 times a year (for the most part sometimes 2 just depends on scheduling) Okamoto sensei flies in and holds a week or so of intensive "seminars" lasting ALL day.  During this time he works of corrections to past taught techniques as well as teaching new ones (if he feels we are ready).

This is the way everyone outside of Tokyo trains and even at the hombu in Tokyo it is this way because he is not there all the time either.  I trained in this organization for 13 years so yes I would say I earned my 2nd dan.  However, in koryu arts there was never a "belt system" as things were/are done through awarding mokuroku (scrolls or catalogs).  The first scroll is not given out until after 3rd dan.  The "belt system" was put in place for the students peace of mind IMO.  In most schools in Japan, as I have been told, as long as you are a good person and show up for class within a year you are most likely going to make 1st dan (its much harder in the States and we award for different reasons).  Technically your ability is not really scrutinized until you are up for 3rd dan either.  

Okamoto sensei said since we were his first American school he was going to grade us much tougher so that there would never be a question as to the rank we earned.  He also only agreed to teach us because we already had the basics he said since we were originally a Tomiki Aikido school before switching over.  I know he scrutinized my ability because he gave me corrections and things to work on specific to me.  I know there were extensive records kept to attendance and hours trained as well because I ran part of the "dokokai" in NC as I lived in Raleigh and the group officially listed in Charlotte.

I also know that I achieved a base technical level because I went around from school to school in NC demonstrating the art due to the fact that it is not so well known and the techniques that Okamoto sensei knows are virtually unseen elsewhere.  I had to perform the techniques alone in schools that had never seen them against people who had know idea what I was trying to do.  Out of my Raleigh group 4 dan rankings were issued not including my own.  To my knowledge there is only one person higher ranked in NC and that is my good friend who lead the NC group collectively from Charlotte.

I would also like to point out here that this practice of training people via seminar is not uncommon in the MAs.  When I trained under Carlos Machado this was how BJJ was taught and in fact is still taught.  It is very easy to find blue belts, purple belts and brown belts running BJJ schools and bringing their teacher in a few times a year to review them, grade them and teach them.

As to your question about what was required for the Nidan, this is a personal question for Okamoto sensei.  Everyone in our group is graded differently.  The common factors are attendance and basic understanding of the concepts with an ability to perform them.  Okamoto sensei does not have a set curriculum written down that he gives out to be graded by.  Okamoto sensei cares more about the person and what they have as far as technique.  It is a very different school.  Most Daito ryu schools teach the Hiden Mokuroku (118 techniques) for the early dan ranks.  Okamoto sensei does not teach these as a core set, and really only teachs a few basics from it when he feels the need is there.  Almost everyone in the organization has high ranking dans in other arts so maybe thats why I am not sure.  Okamoto teaches techniques from another set of techniques and he does this to try and preserve them as they are high level and a lot of people never make it far enough to reach them.

Lastly, I don't care about rank personally - I do list the rank as a point of context for others to view my comments and to give credit for those who influenced me the most.  Okamoto sensei had a profound impact on my understanding of applied principles and I am forever thankful.


----------



## Chris Parker (Jan 19, 2012)

Thanks, Jason.



jasonbrinn said:


> Thanks for the question Chris.  As I am sure you know in any koryu art there is only one teacher.  In Daito ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai the shihan is Seigo Okamoto sensei.  Okamoto lives in Tokyo and has schools all around the world.  I was part of the first American school.


 
Ah, that depends on the Koryu. Quite a few have a number of licenced teachers. 



jasonbrinn said:


> At each school/branch/dokokai "study group" there is appointed a lead.  This lead is in charge of running classes, keeping attendance, etc.  This lead may teach what Okamoto sensei has taught before but this lead is NOT the instructor and does not award rank.  At least 3 times a year (for the most part sometimes 2 just depends on scheduling) Okamoto sensei flies in and holds a week or so of intensive "seminars" lasting ALL day.  During this time he works of corrections to past taught techniques as well as teaching new ones (if he feels we are ready).



Yeah, I know Okamoto Sensei's schedule as pertains to the US Roppokai groups.



jasonbrinn said:


> This is the way everyone outside of Tokyo trains and even at the hombu in Tokyo it is this way because he is not there all the time either.  I trained in this organization for 13 years so yes I would say I earned my 2nd dan.  However, in koryu arts there was never a "belt system" as things were/are done through awarding mokuroku (scrolls or catalogs).  The first scroll is not given out until after 3rd dan.  The "belt system" was put in place for the students peace of mind IMO.  In most schools in Japan, as I have been told, as long as you are a good person and show up for class within a year you are most likely going to make 1st dan (its much harder in the States and we award for different reasons).  Technically your ability is not really scrutinized until you are up for 3rd dan either.


 
Yeah, again, I'm more than familiar with the ranking of Koryu arts. With regards to Daito Ryu, the Kyu/Dan system was introduced by Takeda Tokimune, Takeda Sokaku's son and successor to the mainline, with pretty much all the split-off organisations utilising their own form of it as well (including, of course, Okamoto Sensei when he founded the Roppokai). As to why Takade Tokimune Sensei put it in place, that seems to be a matter of debate, but peace of mind might be part of it. I also think it was to give more of a "common ground" for some form of comparison with other arts, and add to Daito Ryu's acceptance and popularity (especially if compared with Aikido, which had already adopted that ranking system).

The Dan ranking doesn't really relate directly (or even at all, really) with the Menkyo/Mokuroku licencing system previously used, though, and, from what I hear, some lines of Daito Ryu still use the Menkyo system for higher level students (Uchi Deshi). That said, it's interesting that you'd say that your technical ability isn't really scrutinized until Sandan, yet also say that you feel you'd earned the Nidan after 13 years. Are you saying that your Nidan isn't based on technical ability, and is just for 'hanging in there'? 



jasonbrinn said:


> Okamoto sensei said since we were his first American school he was going to grade us much tougher so that there would never be a question as to the rank we earned.  He also only agreed to teach us because we already had the basics he said since we were originally a Tomiki Aikido school before switching over.  I know he scrutinized my ability because he gave me corrections and things to work on specific to me.  I know there were extensive records kept to attendance and hours trained as well because I ran part of the "dokokai" in NC as I lived in Raleigh and the group officially listed in Charlotte.



I take it this branch for the Roppokai no longer trains? The only ones I've found listed for the US are in Texas, California, and Oregon, which is a fair bit away. Okatomo Sensei seems to dominantly travel to California, from the looks of things.



jasonbrinn said:


> I also know that I achieved a base technical level because I went around from school to school in NC demonstrating the art due to the fact that it is not so well known and the techniques that Okamoto sensei knows are virtually unseen elsewhere.  I had to perform the techniques alone in schools that had never seen them against people who had know idea what I was trying to do.  Out of my Raleigh group 4 dan rankings were issued not including my own.  To my knowledge there is only one person higher ranked in NC and that is my good friend who lead the NC group collectively from Charlotte.



Hmm, maybe not then. Interesting that they don't show up as an official branch dojo, if this was the first US school, and is still running.



jasonbrinn said:


> I would also like to point out here that this practice of training people via seminar is not uncommon in the MAs.  When I trained under Carlos Machado this was how BJJ was taught and in fact is still taught.  It is very easy to find blue belts, purple belts and brown belts running BJJ schools and bringing their teacher in a few times a year to review them, grade them and teach them.



Oh, I've seen it before as well, including in Daito Ryu, I just hadn't heard of it for the Roppokai, that's all.



jasonbrinn said:


> As to your question about what was required for the Nidan, this is a personal question for Okamoto sensei.  Everyone in our group is graded differently.  The common factors are attendance and basic understanding of the concepts with an ability to perform them.  Okamoto sensei does not have a set curriculum written down that he gives out to be graded by.  Okamoto sensei cares more about the person and what they have as far as technique.  It is a very different school.  Most Daito ryu schools teach the Hiden Mokuroku (118 techniques) for the early dan ranks.  Okamoto sensei does not teach these as a core set, and really only teachs a few basics from it when he feels the need is there.  Almost everyone in the organization has high ranking dans in other arts so maybe thats why I am not sure.  Okamoto teaches techniques from another set of techniques and he does this to try and preserve them as they are high level and a lot of people never make it far enough to reach them.



Ah, cool. I'm aware that each branch of Daito Ryu seems to rank differently, with some using the Ikkajo set for Shodan, Nikajo set for Nidan, Sankajo set for Sandan etc, others use the Hiden Mokuroku completely for Shodan, others use half of it, and so on. I was just curious as to Okamoto Sensei's use of the Ryu's teachings in dividing it for rank to get an idea of how far into the curriculum Nidan would be for you.



jasonbrinn said:


> Lastly, I don't care about rank personally - I do list the rank as a point of context for others to view my comments and to give credit for those who influenced me the most.  Okamoto sensei had a profound impact on my understanding of applied principles and I am forever thankful.



Not caring about rank is one thing, but when dealing with Koryu systems, to be at a particular level means that you haven't been taught any of the material above that, so the understanding of the system would be incomplete, no matter how long you'd trained.

That said, the video you linked (I'd seen it before, for the record) certainly seems to indicate that Okamoto Sensei doesn't really focus on the kata and waza of Daito Ryu, instead looking more at principles and concepts. Interesting approach, especially for a Koryu teacher.


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 19, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Thanks, Jason.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Chris, the first American school founded in Charlotte was disbanded years ago, however, two students from that group my friend and myself stayed in the Roppokai and eventually re-setup a "study group" that has recently left as well I believe.  I personally left the Roppokai in 2009 for personal reasons.

Okamoto had a stroke and decided to restrict his travel so CA became the hub for his US activity.  This left schools on the east coast with a lot to consider going forward as to the amount of time they good get training with sensei and so forth.

I joined the Roppoakai in 1996.

I obtained my rank by earning it on a technical level, not by "hanging in there."

I am not surprised that you think Okamoto sensei's techniques are outside of the Daito ryu curriculum as they are almost never seen, however, they are in fact from one of the sets of techniques.  Okamoto's sensei was Kodo Horikawa (a VERY short man even among typically short Japanese men of his time) and he was taught a specific group of Daito ryu techniques due to his short size by Sokaku Takeda himself.  The 53 aikinojutsu kata.  Okamoto got what he got from Horikawa and I got what I got from Okamoto.  I understand aiki as taught to me by Okamoto along with how it should be applied - that was all Okamoto cared about other than proper etiquette (which might have been the most important thing).

I am very versed on the traditions and history of this ryu.

As for belt rankings, you are largely right however.  Within the Roppokai we really only have three belts - white, brown and black.  White has 2 stripes you obtain and then you go for brown.  Dan ranks are typical except for a special ranking between 3rd and 4th when you receive your first scroll.  to my knowledge only two people stateside have received it one of which is no longer in the organization and the other I consider a good friend.


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## elder999 (Jan 19, 2012)

I'm going to avoid the whole topic of your various teachers and ranks, entirely, Jason, so that you don't think I'm persecuting you. To get back on topic, though, I'm really interested in some exposition on your training methodology:



			
				elder999;[URL="tel:1454207" said:
			
		

> 1454207[/URL]]Care to expand on this? "Different" _how_? "Much more rigid" how? They certainly can be done at any pace and level of intention or contact-so, if the concepts and reasons for doing them are very similar, and they're 'scripted training," how is your "just drilling" _less rigid _and *different*?


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## Big Don (Jan 19, 2012)

The whole idea that you can become a good fighter without sparring is as stupid as claiming to be a great marksman without ever having picked up a rifle.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 19, 2012)

I would say its more along the lines of never shooting at moving targets, but regardless, i am interested as elder999 is in what specifically the drills Jason does look like. How are they different from kata training? Where does resistance come into play?


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## MJS (Jan 20, 2012)

Big Don said:


> The whole idea that you can become a good fighter without sparring is as stupid as claiming to be a great marksman without ever having picked up a rifle.



LOL!  So true!  I tempted to add this to my sig line.


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## MJS (Jan 20, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I would say its more along the lines of never shooting at moving targets, but regardless, i am interested as elder999 is in what specifically the drills Jason does look like. How are they different from kata training? Where does resistance come into play?



Yes, me too!!


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## jasonbrinn (Jan 20, 2012)

Ok, without putting up video which I might be able to if it is ultimately needed here is what we do.

1. General Fitness
2. Combat Fitness
3. Teach the concept.
4. Teach the technique.
5. Drill broken down components of the technique
6. Drill the technique as a whole
7. Drill the technique in scripted scenarios where the timing and execution situations are fed to the student

#7 is probably where the confusion has been.  I know everyone does this on some level.  It is very similar to one step sparring, etc., but done in a live manner - as I am sure every MMA gym around the world does.  The two unique factors about my school are probably;

A. NO resistance training for application technique development
B. #5 from above

#5 we have developed some different concepts and processes to train the specific components of a technique that I KNOW are different than anything else I have trained.  I made them up.  I know many teachers make up and devise training methods so this is not revolutionary stuff people.  

If anything at all is controversial about what I teach, what we do and what I say it is probably the fact of my STRONG belief that resistance training, live sparring, etc., is really bad for the overall development of the student.  I stand by this. I have tested this and my students have won out everywhere we have chosen to compete and test the theory.  I run/ran a VERY open school.  I allowed people from anywhere to come in and train with us.  On one occasion a UFC fighter came in for the weekend to train and afterwards I asked him how we were doing and he told me "keep doing what your doing you guys have a got a good thing here."  Now he could have just been nice but he had no reason to be and he could have easily pointed out anything at all to change or work on.  This coupled with many other stories I could give have along with our results have made me confident until the data changes or even better training methods are discovered (I am always looking).

I hope this answers your questions?

Oh, and by the way - I feel it is more ignorant to reject a thought process you don't understand/agree with outright than say testing the theory or at least reserving judgement until it has been independently tested and proven to be "stupid." (this is for all those out there simply posting "not sparring is stupid and doesn't work") I'm not saying but I'm just saying.


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## Tez3 (Jan 20, 2012)

Jason we do all that and we spar. I haven't said your thought processes were stupid, how can they be when you won't and still haven't shared what you actually do, all we have here is yet another boast ...a UFC fighter...well, who? We've had two UFC fighters, a UFC judge and UFC ref say what we do is great as well...namely Ian Freeman, Leigh Remedious, Skip Hall and Marc Goddard, what we do they also do so no surprise they like what we do.  You won't say who the fighter is that you claim won all those fights and all you've done is make a list of stuff even non MMA martial artists most likely do. All you are saying is that you know the way you train works. We can't... _not_ won't see this, there is still nothing to go on and I'm aware this is as frustrating for you as it is for me like as not.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 20, 2012)

How can you say you don't practice putting the technique on against any resistance when any fight scenario (sport or otherwise) will always include resistance? Not putting any resistance in the training process at all leads to an infection of dojo-itis, the disease where people think they have something down but are really not applying the technique the way it would need to be applied in a real life setting.

I have no problem with leaving out resistance when learning to do something, but you need the resistance to TEST the students ability to do it under pressure against an uncooperative opponent.

In my opinion sparring and pressure testing are useless only when there is no goal or purpose to it and it becomes more or less a game of tag, but after doing all the other things you mentioned, Jason, it needs to be done under pressure. I don't see how you could have drawn any other conclusion. You need ALL of these things to train.


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## Tanaka (Jan 20, 2012)

I've read a little of this thread. I think live sparring is a very good addition to training, and this is based on my own experience. When we are practicing a technique our partner is being compliant(slightly resisting) and giving us what we need to do it. When I am sparring I learn that people fight differently and that I have to find out what is the best technique to use against what this guy tends to do. Sometimes one technique works so well on one guy because of how he fights and at other times I will never get it on another guy. So basically sparring has showed me that I have to find the right technique, and not script what I am going to do in my head. Because once I script what I want to do to this guy I always fail. In a real live situation the energy is constantly changing. I might be getting a forward energy, sideways energy, or backwards energy. And I have to realize and feel this energy changing and not try to force a technique but do it accordingly to what he gives me the most. I've also learned through sparring how to get someone to give me something to work with. 
There are just so many things that I cannot see possible without sparring.(Some kind of resisting unpredictable motion from your partner)


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## oaktree (Jan 20, 2012)

We spar in taijiquan. Sometimes pretty hard.
Just look at some of the Chen sanshou videos
In the taiji section.


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