# Kata: Techniques for the street?



## Mrluckyman (Sep 2, 2008)

I read a recent reply to an earlier post and decided to write about the effectiveness of Kata practice for streetfighting.....First of all, a good karate-ka goes to great lengths to avoid street fighting.... most are lovers, not fighters....I know I am. However, that does not mean that all those years, months if you are just beginning, are wasted....Years ago I heard of , Hidy Ochai, Sensei had a student who did not "believe" in the "traditional" techniques of karate-do and opted for full contact training instead, after and extended period of training and several full contact fights, the former student did the un-thinkable and challenged Ochai Sensei to a full contact match......In the early part of the challenge Ochai Sensei knocked the former student out with a "Traditional" Yoko Geri to the face........In my own experience, after practicing kata only for 10 years and competing in tournament after tournament in Kata and Kobudo only (doing well, placing in the top three in every competition) bare in mind, I practiced A LOT, with emphasis on kata precision, rythmn, bunkai oyo, henka waza.....I re-entered kumite competition and won USAKF National Championship 1993 ...International Kata Champion 1998 JKR, International Kumite Champion 1999, International Kobudo Champion 2000.

I firmly believe it was the Kata training that enabled myself the ability and effectiveness on the street.... Did tournament competition prepare or help in the encounters? (Sounds like a new thread)....They were "real" karate tournaments or maybe I should say, "Old Fashion" tournaments..... the kind where you hear the techniques and they hurt you by watching.....ALL the competitors were top notch and any one could have made it to Gold those days, I just happened to be on that day....check out my screen name and you see why....

I wonder why over 95% of all fights go to the ground? Most of my encounters didn't, one did, I was wearing dancing shoes and slipped, my opponent tried to capitolize on my mistake and receive a yokogeri (side kick) to the chest as he tried to punch me.... sent him backwards and allowed me to recover.....then Tatezuki to the cheeck and goodnight! Please understand, I regret the incidents very much and given the opportunity would have NOT proceeded in fighting.... however, the incidents taught me VERY valuable lessons in the effectiveness of "Traditional" training and techniques..... they saved my life!

ALL from Kata, Imagine that!!!!!!!!!   And you thought it was only a dance....


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 2, 2008)

Kata was meant as a training method but is composed of real moves so why should the various parts of it not work in the street. Thats what is all about, learning to defend one self.


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## twendkata71 (Sep 2, 2008)

I can totally believe the story about Ochiai sensei, I have witnessed his prowess personally. Great post. 







Mrluckyman said:


> I read a recent reply to an earlier post and decided to write about the effectiveness of Kata practice for streetfighting.....First of all, a good karate-ka goes to great lengths to avoid street fighting.... most are lovers, not fighters....I know I am. However, that does not mean that all those years, months if you are just beginning, are wasted....Years ago I heard of , Hidy Ochai, Sensei had a student who did not "believe" in the "traditional" techniques of karate-do and opted for full contact training instead, after and extended period of training and several full contact fights, the former student did the un-thinkable and challenged Ochai Sensei to a full contact match......In the early part of the challenge Ochai Sensei knocked the former student out with a "Traditional" Yoko Geri to the face........In my own experience, after practicing kata only for 10 years and competing in tournament after tournament in Kata and Kobudo only (doing well, placing in the top three in every competition) bare in mind, I practiced A LOT, with emphasis on kata precision, rythmn, bunkai oyo, henka waza.....I re-entered kumite competition and won USAKF National Championship 1993 ...International Kata Champion 1998 JKR, International Kumite Champion 1999, International Kobudo Champion 2000.
> 
> I firmly believe it was the Kata training that enabled myself the ability and effectiveness on the street.... Did tournament competition prepare or help in the encounters? (Sounds like a new thread)....They were "real" karate tournaments or maybe I should say, "Old Fashion" tournaments..... the kind where you hear the techniques and they hurt you by watching.....ALL the competitors were top notch and any one could have made it to Gold those days, I just happened to be on that day....check out my screen name and you see why....
> 
> ...


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## chinto (Sep 2, 2008)

of course the older kata, not something made up by some one for some tournament, but the old Kata like seisan or kusanku, or passai or annanku  to name a few all teach street fighting techniques. that is what they are for. I will avoid any fight i can, but if I can not I do know what I have trained in works on the streets.


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## Mrluckyman (Sep 2, 2008)

> I can totally believe the story about Ochiai sensei, I have witnessed his prowess personally. Great post.


..... An article I read about Ochiai, Sensei in 1973 was very inspirational to me in the early years..As I remember, his Sensei was insulted by a student of another Sensei, so to save face, each Sensei sent a representative for a test of each others art. Ochiai, Sensei was selected as was the student who had committed the insult. Ochiai, Sensei defeated him, but the other student concelled a knife in his GI,from which he pulled it and thrust it at Ochiai, Sensei... Ochiai, Sensei blocked the attack and similtaneously delivered a Taisho Uchi breaking the other's arm...To me Ochiai, Sensei embodies gueniune authentic Martial Arts in that he lives his art. He has always been in great shape as well. I have never had the previlege of training with him, but have admired him from a far.


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## MJS (Sep 2, 2008)

Mrluckyman said:


> I read a recent reply to an earlier post and decided to write about the effectiveness of Kata practice for streetfighting.....First of all, a good karate-ka goes to great lengths to avoid street fighting.... most are lovers, not fighters....I know I am. However, that does not mean that all those years, months if you are just beginning, are wasted....Years ago I heard of , Hidy Ochai, Sensei had a student who did not "believe" in the "traditional" techniques of karate-do and opted for full contact training instead, after and extended period of training and several full contact fights, the former student did the un-thinkable and challenged Ochai Sensei to a full contact match......In the early part of the challenge Ochai Sensei knocked the former student out with a "Traditional" Yoko Geri to the face........In my own experience, after practicing kata only for 10 years and competing in tournament after tournament in Kata and Kobudo only (doing well, placing in the top three in every competition) bare in mind, I practiced A LOT, with emphasis on kata precision, rythmn, bunkai oyo, henka waza.....I re-entered kumite competition and won USAKF National Championship 1993 ...International Kata Champion 1998 JKR, International Kumite Champion 1999, International Kobudo Champion 2000.
> 
> I firmly believe it was the Kata training that enabled myself the ability and effectiveness on the street.... Did tournament competition prepare or help in the encounters? (Sounds like a new thread)....They were "real" karate tournaments or maybe I should say, "Old Fashion" tournaments..... the kind where you hear the techniques and they hurt you by watching.....ALL the competitors were top notch and any one could have made it to Gold those days, I just happened to be on that day....check out my screen name and you see why....


 
The debate of whether or not kata is good, effective, etc., is on going.  Like I have said in the other threads, its just one piece of the puzzle.  Kata needs to be broken down, things need to be extracted and drilled live, and most importantly, the kata needs to be understood.  If these things are not done, especially the last one, then IMO, simply going thru the kata isn't really doing any good.  



> I wonder why over 95% of all fights go to the ground? Most of my encounters didn't, one did, I was wearing dancing shoes and slipped, my opponent tried to capitolize on my mistake and receive a yokogeri (side kick) to the chest as he tried to punch me.... sent him backwards and allowed me to recover.....then Tatezuki to the cheeck and goodnight! Please understand, I regret the incidents very much and given the opportunity would have NOT proceeded in fighting.... however, the incidents taught me VERY valuable lessons in the effectiveness of "Traditional" training and techniques..... they saved my life!
> 
> ALL from Kata, Imagine that!!!!!!!!! And you thought it was only a dance....


 
IMO, the 95% stat is over rated.   Interestingly enough, if you pick up the Sept. '08 issue of Black Belt, there is an article that talks about that very thing.


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## jtbdad (Sep 5, 2008)

Mrluckyman said:


> I read a recent reply to an earlier post and decided to write about the effectiveness of Kata practice for streetfighting.....First of all, a good karate-ka goes to great lengths to avoid street fighting.... most are lovers, not fighters....I know I am. However, that does not mean that all those years, months if you are just beginning, are wasted....Years ago I heard of , Hidy Ochai, Sensei had a student who did not "believe" in the "traditional" techniques of karate-do and opted for full contact training instead, after and extended period of training and several full contact fights, the former student did the un-thinkable and challenged Ochai Sensei to a full contact match......In the early part of the challenge Ochai Sensei knocked the former student out with a "Traditional" Yoko Geri to the face........In my own experience, after practicing kata only for 10 years and competing in tournament after tournament in Kata and Kobudo only (doing well, placing in the top three in every competition) bare in mind, I practiced A LOT, with emphasis on kata precision, rythmn, bunkai oyo, henka waza.....I re-entered kumite competition and won USAKF National Championship 1993 ...International Kata Champion 1998 JKR, International Kumite Champion 1999, International Kobudo Champion 2000.
> 
> I firmly believe it was the Kata training that enabled myself the ability and effectiveness on the street.... Did tournament competition prepare or help in the encounters? (Sounds like a new thread)....They were "real" karate tournaments or maybe I should say, "Old Fashion" tournaments..... the kind where you hear the techniques and they hurt you by watching.....ALL the competitors were top notch and any one could have made it to Gold those days, I just happened to be on that day....check out my screen name and you see why....
> 
> ...



Great post my friend and I do remember the old style tournaments with only tape on your fists (early 70's)  More than a few bruises from these.

I've always wondered about the "95%" theory.  I personally have only gone to the ground once and that was an attack from behind while treating an MVA victim.


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## Brandon Fisher (Sep 7, 2008)

GREAT POST!!!  That brings me to a comment that Nitta Sensei said to me last year while visiting the United States during one of our many conversations on kata and various waza.  Nitta Sensei looked at me and said train kata for kumite this way and I quote "kata, kata, kata, kata, kumite, kata, kata, kata, kata, kumite" and the circle continues.  He told me he is not afraid to walk alone anywhere because he knows and has trained his kata the way he has.  Makes perfect sense to me, kata has everything you need in all reality.  As long as its practiced and learned the way they were went to be kata will give you all the tools.  I have trained and taught under people that didn't fully understand kata, would make comments such as perform the kata like you were in a real fight, but did not allow any practice of bunkai.  Others were great practiioners of kata in movement and basic bunkai at the time I was with them now their knowledge is night and day difference and can show techniques within the kata that aren't as obvious.  So it all depends on the approach one takes towards kata.  To me at the end of the day its kata that will train your body and mind in case you ever need to use your karate.


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## Dan Anderson (Sep 20, 2008)

jtbdad said:


> Great post my friend and I do remember the old style tournaments with only tape on your fists (early 70's) More than a few bruises from these.


Ahhh, did that remark bring back memories or what!  I've found that the ancient kata were marvellous templates for self defense actions from contact (grab arts) situations.  Kumite is great for distancing, timing, and the like when one is _squared off, _that being the situation.  That doesn't happen much, though.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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