# What is "San Miguel Eskrima"?



## Cruentus

lhommedieu,

I've heard you talk about San Miguel Eskrima in other threads. Can you give us a brief history on the art?

Thanks,
PAUL :asian:


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## lhommedieu

Glad to oblige.

The following information has been taken from my website:

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/index.htm





The founder of San Miguel Eskrima was Filemon "Momoy" Canete:

Filemon De La Cuesta Canete ("Momoy" to his friends) was born in 1904 on the island of Cebu, Philippines.  He and seven brothers were taught eskrima by their father, Gregorio Canete.  Momoy later studied with Pinyete Piano Aranas, Juan Tecson and JuansoTekya - well-known and respected eskrimadors from the San Fernando region of Cebu.  In 1920, he began to study with Lorenzo Saavedra and his son Teodoro, from the Visayan region of Cebu.  Momoy also explored faith healing with Don Tecson, who was also well known as a faith healer and wild animal catcher.  He later studied Combat Judo with Jeseus Cui and blended its principles with his eskrima.  Jesus Cui is also credited with orienting Momoy towards a traditional mid- to long-range style of eskrima, in contrast to the shorter-range styles that were becoming more popular. 

The Island of Cebu is noted for producing some of the finest martial artists in the Philippines. In the early 1900s, the Saavedra brothers were the most feared fighters in Cebu and many of the great eskrimadors of that century trained with them.  Momoy considered the Saavedras to be his main teachers, and the stick and dagger methods that he later developed into San Miguel Eskrima are based directly on their teachings. The style of Eskrima practiced by the Saavedra family consisted mainly of counters to the different angles of attack, and tapi-tapi - a form of controlled sparring at close quarters that emphasized the use of the empty hand to monitor and control the opponent's weapon.   In 1932, Momoy and his brothers joined the Doce Pares Club, along with the Saavedras, and other members of the former Labangon Club, which had disbanded about ten years earlier.  Momoy was officially listed as one of the Sergeants at Arms.  Momoy began building a reputation as one who could develop an effective fighting system by analyzing already existing methods. He began to emphasize espada y daga in his own training because he considered it the most difficult style to master. He developed extensive footwork skills to allow him to evade an attack and move back in quickly with a powerful counter-strike or thrust, and created a more aggressive role for the dagger, which could now be used both to monitor and control an opponent's weapons as well as to attack the opponent with thrusts.  Momoy also introduced practice with the spear, an ancient weapon that had fallen into disregard during the Spanish occupation. He linked the movements of the spear to those of the stick and dagger, and added the ananangkil, chain, bullwhip, and throwing knife to his arsenal of weapons.  These were all used as weapons in their own right, but also to develop attributes that Momoy considered essential to his method of fighting.

During World War II, Momoy ferried supplies from the Americans to the Filipino resistance army in the mountains and forests. He also served as a healer for many Filipino soldiers. The Japanese killed many Eskrima practitioners during the war, including the Saavedras. Those practitioners who survived either hid with the guerrillas or fled. 

Momoy was well known in the San Nicolas barrio of Cebu City as a healer. Often during Eskrima practice he would pause to treat patients from the neighborhood with spiritual healing and hilot in his courtyard. As he massaged an injury, aligned bones, or healed illness, he recited spiritual words and prayers.  Momoy attributed his skill to God and claimed that concentrated prayer developed his ability to heal.Momoy also learned to play the guitar, and composed several popular songs.  He was considered a talented musician and songwriter.  His ability to come up with new movements and forms was attributed by his students to his talent for musical composition. Tom Bisio states that during breaks in Eskrima practice he could often be seen staring off into space, clapping his hands together to mark time as he created new forms.  Momoy Canete continued to teach and refine his Eskrima up until his death in 1995. His son and grandson, and his American students continue to develop and pass on his art. 

***

Tom Bisio was the first (to my knowledge) to bring San Miguel Eskrima to the United States.  Ramon Rubia, in California, now also teaches his version of San Miguel Eskrima.  I believe that he learned from GM Casio, one of Momoy's senior students.  

Following is information about Tom Bisio:

Tom has been a practitioner of the Filipino Martial Arts for twenty-five years.  He has trained extensively with such notable teachers as Leo Gaje (Pekiti Tirsia Arnis) and Filemon Canete (San Miguel Eskrima).  After twenty years of training in and teaching the Filipino martial arts, Tom felt the need to promote and teach San Miguel Eskrima so that Filemon Canete's creation would not be lost.  Following the death of Filemon Canete in 1997, Tom formed the San Miguel Eskrima Association.  The goal of this group is to preserve, promote and develop Master Canete's Eskrima method.  The name is a product of discussions with Master Canete in 1987.  It is also an attempt to define his method as an "old" style of Doce Pares that emphasizes the use of the blade and to differentiate his method from the modern tournament styles of Doce Pares.  

Tom feels strongly that San Miguel Eskrima must continue to grow and develop.  Filemon Canete constantly improved on his Eskrima until his death.  Therefore, the San Miguel Eskrima Association will continue to establish research projects to explore various aspects of San Miguel Eskrima.  One important project has been the addition of Rapier and Dagger techniques to the San Miguel Eskrima curriculum.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Cruentus




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## Rich Parsons

Steve,


Good information and thanks for the input.

To give concurrent data from a different family tree that the Saavedras taught Stick and Dagger.  I have been told by Manong Ted Buot, that Anciong Bacon was taught the Stick and Dagger by the Saavedras, and that many a person complained that  Anciong Bacon would poke them with the Wood Training Dagger and it was a problem. Anciong Bacon was then asked not to practice with the dagger. This then lead to him developing his own system of just the Stick. THis then lead to the Balintawak as it has since been named.

I personally liked the history. Thank you! 
:asian: 

Rich


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## lhommedieu

> I have been told by Manong Ted Buot, that Anciong Bacon was taught the Stick and Dagger by the Saavedras, and that many a person complained that  Anciong Bacon would poke them with the Wood Training Dagger and it was a problem. Anciong Bacon was then asked not to practice with the dagger. This then lead to him developing his own system of just the Stick. THis then lead to the Balintawak as it has since been named.



Thanks Rich.  See the following link for an example of a Cebuano training dagger:  

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/daga.htm

Steve Drape has a great article on his website about the history of eskrima in post-1900 Cebu.   Following is a quote from his article: 

"Even though the Doce Pares Club was set up to bring all eskrimadors under one organization, personalities and politics soon broke things up. One of the first to break away was the group of Anchiong Bacon, who was a student of Lorenzo Saavedra. He split from Doce Pares to create his own group and named it Balintawak, after the name of the street where their club was located. He split away because of some problems over money, but also for other reasons. One was because of the political fighting within the club, where one group was trying to ease out the others and take control. Another was that he didnt like the atmosphere in the club where people criticized and made fun of each others play. His Balintawak club became the largest and most successful of the other clubs, and nearly caused Doce Pares to fold in the 50s, due to their feud."

It's an appealing notion that Bacon might also have let his dissatisfaction show through the point of his training dagger.  If it was anything like the one shown in the link above, it must have been pretty painful.  

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Rich Parsons

Steve,

I see your point on many levels.  :rofl: 

And I believe that what you say about frustration is very true.

Thanks

Rich

:asian:


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## san miguel eskrima

Steve,

Comments and corrections and more info on your history of San Miguel Eskrima.

"Tom Bisio was the first (to my knowledge) to bring San Miguel Eskrima to the United States. Ramon Rubia, in California, now also teaches his version of San Miguel Eskrima. I believe that he learned from GM Casio, one of Momoy's senior students. 

===GM Diony Canete was probably the first to bring some aspects of Nong Momoy's San Miguel Eskrima in 1975. Although, he did not propagated the San Miguel Eskrima named instead Doce Pares Eskrima. I know that Tom Bisio was in the Philippines in 1979 for the first time competing in the tournament. Did he trained with Nong Momoy then or in 1982/83? Because Dong Cuesta was also here in the U.S. in 1981 I beleive.
The bulk of my San Miguel Eskrima is coming from Nong Momoy, Nong U. Borja,Noy A. Canete and Nong I. Casio. It is not my version as the Sukaranan is the original movements that I was taught.

San Miguel Eskrima history as told to me by all the senior disciples that I have interviewed and trained with:

The San Miguel name came from Saint Michael, one of the archangels(Arkangel)holding an armor with a long espada. According to Nong Idring Casio, Nong Momoy Cañete got the idea from there and developed his ideas from the concept of Sinugdanan ug Kataposan. Meaning that no one could conquer or defeat the angel of god.

"Filemon De La Cuesta Canete ("Momoy" to his friends) was born in 1904 on the island of Cebu, Philippines. He and seven brothers were taught eskrima by their father, Gregorio Canete. Momoy later studied with Pinyete Piano Aranas, Juan Tecson and JuansoTekya - well-known and respected eskrimadors from the San Fernando region of Cebu. In 1920, he began to study with Lorenzo Saavedra and his son Teodoro, from the Visayan region of Cebu. "

==The Canete brothers (Tinong, Yoling, and Momoy,etc) learnt there  rudiments of eskrima from their father Gregorio "Oyong" Canete and uncle Pedro Canete. Nong Momoy later on studied with Lieutenant Cipriano Aranas also known as Tiniyente Piyano Eskrima Club, Huanso Tecson,Juan Takya, Goriong Tagalog, Andres Suarez and Tito de Goma along with his older brothers. In 1920, the Canetes moved from San Fernando and met the Saavedras, the uncle and nephew tandem of Lorenzo "Tatay Ensong" and Teodoro " Doring" at the San Nicolas district of Cebu City. Venancio "Anciong" Bacon was the top pupil of "Tatay Ensong" Saavedra. According to Nong U. Borja, Nong Momoy also studied with one of the grand old man, Jesus Cui; learning Combat Judo and Espada y Daga (Punta y Daga). Sometimes people referred to as "Batangueno Style". Jesus Cui was versed in Tapi-Tapi (single stick) and Stick and Dagger.==


"During World War II, Momoy ferried supplies from the Americans to the Filipino resistance army in the mountains and forests. He also served as a healer for many Filipino soldiers. The Japanese killed many Eskrima practitioners during the war, including the Saavedras. Those practitioners who survived either hid with the guerrillas or fled.''

===Teodoro "Doring" Saavedra was executed by the Kempetai and Lorenzo "Tatay Ensong" Saavedra died of old age in Mambaling.===

"Momoy Canete continued to teach and refine his Eskrima up until his death in 1995. His son and grandson, and his American students continue to develop and pass on his art. "

===I would estimate that only 10 people at the most that I know of are passing on the San Miguel Eskrima System of Nong Momoy including his nephew not his grandson in Cebu. How can you develop and pass on his art if you have not been to the country of origin and have not met or seen all his senior disciples. ===

===San Miguel Eskrima is power based and bladed orientation. It is the older method of Eskrima as taught by Nong Momoy Canete and his last senior disciples in Cebu, Philippines. My goal is to propagate and preserve the legacy of traditional eskrima as taught by all his senior disciples and the last orihinal founding father that pass on August 12, 1995 of the Doce Pares Club.

Sinugdanan ug Kataposan, Mabuhay,

Ramon Rubia--San Miguel Eskrima,USA


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## Cruentus

Out of curiosity, where do you guys get all your history from. Both of you (Ramon & Steve) seem to have a pretty good historical background in your system, which can be difficult because a lot of that stuff isn't necessarly written down anywhere. I know that I get a lot of my history that isn't published from Manong Ted Buot, who has been pretty good at keeping a "family tree," and history of Balintawak. Some of my seniors, like Rich and Tim Hartman can help me fill in blanks as well.


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## lhommedieu

Dear Ramon,

Thank you for you comments and corrections with respect to my post about San Miguel Eskrima.  My intention in this post and in previous ones has always been twofold:  (1) to promote an art that as you correctly state, has very few proponents in the world, and (2) to invite comments from anyone who has knowledge to share.  Your post meets both criteria admirably.

The history that I provided is based on Tom Bisios biography of Momoy Canete that he wrote as part of a manual for his instructor-candidates during the period 1994-1996.  My understanding is that much of the information about Momoy came from conversations with Eulogio Canete in 1984.  The biography appears in an altered form on my website in order to reflect information provided to me by Steve Drape and Agapito Gonzales.  However, it does not reflect any developments in San Miguel Eskrima post-1984 in the Philippines.  Obviously it now stands in need of further correction, and I would be happy to consider any changes that you suggest in addition to the ones already mentioned in your post.

I believe that Tom met with Momoy and may have trained with him briefly in 1979, and returned a couple of times during the 1980s to continue his training.  Toms reputation as a teacher of Filipino and Chinese martial arts stands on its own, and he does not need me to promote it. 

Our version of San Miguel Eskrima reflects a desire to honor the memory of Momoy Canete, and to ensure that the old-style eskrima of Momoy and Yoling Canete that was taught during this period is not forgotten.  That you and other senior students of Momoys are also teaching San Miguel Eskrima is a cause for celebration, in my opinion, and I look forward to more conversation with you in the future.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## bart

Hey There,

Ramon gets his information by interviewing and training with old masters in the Philippines and by researching in books and newspapers at libraries over there as well. His wife is a Canete and he has access to many of the Eskrimadors who were eyewitnesses to the history of Eskrima in Cebu since the early 20th century. He does a lot of research whenever he goes to the Philippines which is about once a year if not more often. He's a big advocate of going to the "source" or primary resource to learn the history so as to understand the development of the arts and their branches over time.


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## lhommedieu

Ramon,



> The San Miguel name came from Saint Michael, one of the archangels(Arkangel)holding an armor with a long espada. According to Nong Idring Casio, Nong Momoy Cañete got the idea from there and developed his ideas from the concept of Sinugdanan ug Kataposan. Meaning that no one could conquer or defeat the angel of god.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard that there were also statues in Cebu of Saint Michael slaying a dragon that depicted him in a cross-legged stance, and that Momoy may have also chosen the name "San Miguel" because it reminded him of the footwork that he was using.
> 
> I wonder if you could also say a little more about "Sinugdanan ug Kataposan?"  Momoy was also renowned as a healer, and I was wondering if there was a connection between the belief that St. Michael protects eskrimadors and Momoy's use of prayer while doing massage and bonesetting?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> San Miguel Eskrima is power based and bladed orientation. It is the older method of Eskrima as taught by Nong Momoy Canete and his last senior disciples in Cebu, Philippines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting that Tom Bisio's path since the mid-1980's has taken him primarily into the Chinese internal martial arts.  What impressed him about Momoy Canete's eskrima was the quality of his movement:  the way that he could remain relaxed and issue power by using his whole body.  Tom also learned Chinese medicine and uses massage and bonesetting in his practice.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> 
> Steve Lamade
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## lhommedieu

Please note that I have updated a few pages on my website about San Miguel Eskrima, based on Ramon Rubia's generous comments and corrections on this forum and through email correspondence.  The URL's are:

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/momoy.htm
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/glossary.htm
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/links.htm

Best wishes,

Steve Lamade


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## SRyuFighter

Good info. Nice post.


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## Christopher Umbs

lhommedieu said:
			
		

> Tom feels strongly that San Miguel Eskrima must continue to grow and develop. Filemon Canete constantly improved on his Eskrima until his death. Therefore, the San Miguel Eskrima Association will continue to establish research projects to explore various aspects of San Miguel Eskrima. One important project has been the addition of Rapier and Dagger techniques to the San Miguel Eskrima curriculum.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Steve Lamade


Sorry for resurecting an old thread.  Steve, can you tell us more about these rapier and dagger techniques and where you are getting them from?

Thanks,
Chris


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## lhommedieu

Dear Chris,

Summit, N.J.?!  I lived on Lenox Road (off Springfield Avenue towards Rt. 24) for about 25 years.  Small world.

I should stress that the rapier and dagger techniques taught in Tom Bisio's curriculum were not part of Momoy Canete's original curriculum; they were added by Tom to accent what he thought were specific qualities of San Miguel Eskrima.  This is consistent with Momoy's practice of using other weapons (double stick, ananangkil, spear, chain, throwing dagger, e.g.) to develop the attributes that he thought were essential for espada y daga technique.  In addition, Tom wanted to stress the fact that San Miguel Eskrima is blade-oriented FMA even though the bulk of the training is done with wooden stick and dagger.  The following is taken from The San Miguel Eskrima Instructor's Handbook that Tom gave us back in 1995:  

"Filemon Canete was born in 1904. His teachers would have learned from men who had honed their skills during he era of Spanish rule. His espada y daga method clearly shows the influence of European fencing while retaining the unique quality of the native fighting arts. The pinute, the favored blade type in Cebu is a long straight well balanced blade. In many parts of the Philippines shorter, chopping blades are favored. The pinute allows for equal use of point and blade similar to older European fencing styles.

However, it is not only for historical reasons that members of our association have decided to include rapier and dagger training as part of the curriculum in San Miguel Eskrima. Training with European weapons develops light, quick movements that encourage finesse and improve the reflexes. Additionally the nature of the rapier promotes greater use of the thrust and point, allowing the weapons capabilities to be employed to the fullest."

As far as training with rapier and dagger goes, we generally use double-wide epee blades or schlager blades combined with a swept guard or bell guard for the "rapier" and cut-down saber blades combined with bell guard for the "dagger."  Both weapons are buttoned for safety.  Drills include all of the two-person SME drills generally done with stick and dagger which, because of the different nature of the weapons involved, force your movements to become much smaller and lighter at a greater range.  These drills include the counters to angles of attack, Espada y Daga drills, and Palusot drills, and could be further extrapolated to include Balla Balla Redondo drills.  Hence we are using rapier and dagger to enhance FMA skills and not practicing European fencing per se.  What I have noticed after training in this fashion is that my stick and dagger movements become correspondingly more precise - and that I find that I'm thinking of thrusting to the face a lot more with my stick.  This in a nutshell is the value of training with European weapons in an FMA context, and I wish to stress that although "Rapier and Dagger" is definitely _not my area of expertise _ - I believe that I have gained terrific value from the practice.  For example, I've developed a better appreciation for range and timing after training with a weapon that's much longer than a typical FMA-type stick.  (In other words, my hitherto close-the-gap-and-beat-them-senseless-with-a-stick berserker attitude cooled somewhat after training with someone who actually knew what to do with a rapier.)  

Although you get an appreciation for the espada y daga aspect of SME when you train with rapier and dagger, there are other methods for bringing out specific qualities of Momoy Canetes eskrima.  For example, practicing the San Miguel Eskrima Form with a Naval Cutlass, pinute, or Napoleonic-era officer's saber, etc., really brings out the larga mano, power-oriented aspects of SME - aspects that are very different from those brought out by rapier and dagger training.  By the same token, if you were doing a _different _ FMA and decided to substitute a machete for the stick when you were doing its two-person drills, you might pick up on a _different _ set of qualities as well.

Although I use the rapier and dagger as a training tool, several of our instructors have trained much more extensively in European fencing arts, and could probably answer you questions better than I.  James Seetoo has practiced fencing for twenty years or so. He studied saber at Santellis, taught at Hunter College, and was an Alternate National Director for the USFA. He has also taught rapier classes in New York City, and may thus be your best contact with respect to the historicity of the drills that we practice.  Hoi Vihn Ngo has a fencing background.  William Schettino also has a fencing background, and frequently uses a pair of schlager blades to illustrate his teaching points during his Estacada and Estacada-Kajukenbo classes in New York City.  James and Hoi can be contacted through www.eskrima.com; Bill Schettino's website is www.estacada.net.

By the way, the links to my San Miguel Eskrima website listed above are no longer active; the new address is http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/index.htm

Best,

Steve


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## lhommedieu

Sorry:  www.eskrima.com


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## Christopher Umbs

Steve,

Division ave. off of Mountain between Summit and New Providence.

I'm an instructor of a number of European arts including rapier and dagger at the Martinez Academy in NYC and I've entered FMA tournaments using it, so I'll have to find the time to see Mr. Seetoo in action.  I'm curious if he recreated his techniques from historical treatises or if it's an adaption from stage combat or an actual living tradition that he picked up at Santelli's.  Something else to add to my to do list...

Thanks,
Chris


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## Cruentus

Mr. Umbs,

I would like to hear more about your schools background/history and how you guys train. Also, where in NYC?

Perhaps start a thread in the knife or sword forum?

Thanks,

Paul


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## lhommedieu

Christopher Umbs said:
			
		

> Steve,
> 
> Division ave. off of Mountain between Summit and New Providence.
> 
> I'm an instructor of a number of European arts including rapier and dagger at the Martinez Academy in NYC and I've entered FMA tournaments using it, so I'll have to find the time to see Mr. Seetoo in action.  I'm curious if he recreated his techniques from historical treatises or if it's an adaption from stage combat or an actual living tradition that he picked up at Santelli's.  Something else to add to my to do list...
> 
> Thanks,
> Chris



Sounds good.  I believe that James has met Maestro Martínez and has talked to him about rapier techniques.  I'm 100 per cent sure that what James does is _not_ an adaptation from stage combat - but more in line with a historical tradition.

Best,

Steve


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## GAB

Hi all,

From what I am getting without going to the sites is an overview of where it came and who is involved.

How about some techs? Or did I miss them???

Strike 1 or, how many strikes or???

I was working over at an instructors, some variations on Cabales Escrima or Modern Arnis. I point that out, he say's it is all an illusion, same strikes same stuff different flavor.

So with that I will add a Joke. Is it like someone drunk on San Miguel beer?
Wild and dashing or composed and cunning, tight stuff or loose?  

Close, middle or long range? Like Leo Giron Master's Fan 20 different???

12 strikes angles? 5 strikes angles? Blocks can you compare to something???

Thanks, Gary


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## bart

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> From what I am getting without going to the sites is an overview of where it came and who is involved.
> 
> How about some techs? Or did I miss them???
> 
> Strike 1 or, how many strikes or???
> 
> I was working over at an instructors, some variations on Cabales Escrima or Modern Arnis. I point that out, he say's it is all an illusion, same strikes same stuff different flavor.
> 
> So with that I will add a Joke. Is it like someone drunk on San Miguel beer?
> Wild and dashing or composed and cunning, tight stuff or loose?
> 
> Close, middle or long range? Like Leo Giron Master's Fan 20 different???
> 
> 12 strikes angles? 5 strikes angles? Blocks can you compare to something???
> 
> Thanks, Gary




Hey There,

I'm a San Miguel guy myself out in your neck of the woods. Drop on by so we can talk about it. San Miguel is a style of Doce Pares Eskrima, the personal style of Doce Pares Grandmaster Momoy Canete. It is not the korto kurbada that has come to signify modern Doce Pares but rather the linear old style Doce Pares "Original". As it is Doce Pares it has 12 basic strikes but there's a good number of subsets, supersets, and variations. 

Having studied both Serada and Modern Arnis, I can tell you that it is not just the same stuff. It is different in several ways perhaps most of all in its minimalism and lack of ornamentation compared to the other styles you mentioned. But also its emphasis on the generation of power and the specific use of principles to impart the style give it a distinct flavor. 

Some other things to set it apart are the use of the long stick (32"-36") versus the 24"-26" stick of Serada. The stepping in San Miguel is based on a diamond pattern that is different than the box stepping in Serada as well. Compared to Modern Arnis, the training methodology is very different in terms of what is taught when and how things flow from abesedario to seguidas and later into free flow palusot and palakaw. Also San Miguel makes different use of the stick and dagger to train the empty hands. 

In terms of range San Miguel emphasizes the long range and the short range and views the middle range as an area to "get through". As always between different FMA there are a lot more similarities than differences but San Miguel is definitely different from the others and distinct in a very visible way. 

I have a video of some of the living San Miguel Grandmasters on my website:www.CapitalDocePares.com. Follow the menu to the videos page. It's the first one. 

I had a chance to train with these gentlemen during my trip to Cebu this last summer and it changed the way that I think about my eskrima. Most of these men were at their physical prime in the 1950's and 1960's and to see them move the way they do is nothing less than impressive and inspiring.  

For what it's worth, I believe in a strong historical influence of western fighting arts on the FMA be it boxing, wrestling, or weapon based. I'm glad to see that the rapier and dagger is being explored and I think its study is a valid and logical extension of the principles that serve as the foundation of SME.


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## Christopher Umbs

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Mr. Umbs,
> 
> I would like to hear more about your schools background/history and how you guys train. Also, where in NYC?
> 
> Perhaps start a thread in the knife or sword forum?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Paul


Yeah, I don't want to clog up space here.  Most of your questions can probably be answered at http://www.martinez-destreza.com/ and
http://www.scherma-tradizionale.org/

Chris


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## lhommedieu

Bart, 

Great Clip.  Thanks for making it available.  

For GAB, who asked for a more technical discussion - consider the following use of "Uno Dos" (stick/daga/stick/daga).  

All four masters demonstrate this fundamental combination after setting it up with four different preceding striking combinations and footwork patterns  beautiful to watch.  I've put the sequences in a time-frame and underlined where "Uno Dos" and "Forward w/ Uno Dos" (Uno Dos with footwork that takes you forward) take place.

Master Borja:

[00:06  00:09]

Angle 7 (diagonal upward cut);Angle 2 (diagonal downward cut); Angle 9 (Sungkette); Uno Dos (Flywheel, palm-down thrust with daga; Angle 2 (diagonal downward cut; palm-up thrust with daga); Forward w/ Uno Dos (started with an Angle 1 cut instead of the flywheel).


Master Culanag:

[00:25  00:28]

A sort of tripled Arko (but angled forward and down) while moving laterally and back to the left with a cross step; Media (half-strike); Forward with Uno Dos while executing a zig-zag step to mirror the previous footwork. (Notice how he gets back to the same place as Master Borja in the previous clip.)  

Master Canete:

[00:36  00:39]

Jump w/ Arko; Turn Right w/ Uno Dos (abbreviated); Turn Right w/ Arko; Forward w/ Uno Dos.

Master Casio

[01:04 01:13]

Arko  Arko; Elese; 4 Helicopters; Angle #1; 3 Flywheels to Angle 8; Forward w/ Uno Dos.

(Note:  "Flywheels" are the circular vertical cuts that can also travel from right to left, like an Angle 1 initiated from a backhand guard; "Arko" is the redoble-type movement; "Elese" is the 7-Count upward diagonal series; "Helicopters" are sort of like umbrellas).

Nice to see clips like this on the internet - outstanding.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## GAB

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the follow up sounds good.

Hi Bart, I talked to Sensei Kelly (where I practice). He said maybe I should go by and check it out or?? 

Right now I am preparing for a seminar on thursday with Hanshi Bruce Juchnik and  Sensei Kelly, we will be doing advanced eskrima Hanshi Bruce style, good stuff.

Thanks for the invite. 

Regards, Gary


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## bart

Hi Gary,

Come on by. I'm at the Hagan Community Center in Rancho Cordova, Wednesday evenings and Saturday mornings. Tonight our class is going to be in a different building, but it should be still easy to find. Wednesdays we work more theory. Saturdays we do more combative drills and sparring. I don't think anything you see tonight or Saturday would interfere with Hanshi's seminar. Like I said, there are more similarities than differences, but I would spend more time contrasting than comparing.

I studied under Hanshi when I was a kid and I have a large amount of respect for him. He actually was my first FMA teacher. I would like to see how his stick fighting art has developed. I also work right around the corner from Pat Kelly's school.

Anyway, I hope to see you soon. My regards to your teachers.


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## GAB

Hi Bart,

OK I will try and come by and observe.

On the same note you could also come by and see what is happening at the first seiminar on the Advanced Eskrima Thursday night 6:00/9:00 PM.

It is at Sensei Pat's school. I am going to be there more now that I have a reduced schedule. No more branching out I am going to tighten up and stick with one Instructor. 

A lot less costly and like Sensei George Santana said, not much difference in the teaching, it is just a different flavor. GM Estalilla said, it is all chicken just prepared different. 
I like Modern Arnis for the drills and activity for body motion and strength conditioning. Then others are closer and less active. Rick Faye's stuff is great also...IMO

Regards, Gary







			
				bart said:
			
		

> Hi Gary,
> 
> Come on by. I'm at the Hagan Community Center in Rancho Cordova, Wednesday evenings and Saturday mornings. Tonight our class is going to be in a different building, but it should be still easy to find. Wednesdays we work more theory. Saturdays we do more combative drills and sparring. I don't think anything you see tonight or Saturday would interfere with Hanshi's seminar. Like I said, there are more similarities than differences, but I would spend more time contrasting than comparing.
> 
> I studied under Hanshi when I was a kid and I have a large amount of respect for him. He actually was my first FMA teacher. I would like to see how his stick fighting art has developed. I also work right around the corner from Pat Kelly's school.
> 
> Anyway, I hope to see you soon. My regards to your teachers.


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## lhommedieu

Christopher Umbs said:
			
		

> Steve,
> 
> I'm an instructor of a number of European arts including rapier and dagger at the Martinez Academy in NYC and I've entered FMA tournaments using it, so I'll have to find the time to see Mr. Seetoo in action...
> Chris



Chris,

Just wanted to let you know that James got a great job offer recently and has moved to the west coast.  You can still contact him via email however.

A friend of mine lent me his copy of Maestro Martinez' Italian Rapier and Spanish Rapier DVD's.  I thought they were outstanding, both in the quality of the instruction and in the way that they depicted (to my uneducated eye at least) what was probably the essence of both schools.

One observation:  due to the size of the weapons involved and a heavier emphasis on cutting (compared to use of the thrust by the European schools above), Filipino styles appear to me at least to use larger movements both with respect to body mechanics and footwork.  This may be due in part to an earlier historical dependence by Filipino martial artists on battlefield techniques vs. the dueling environment represented by the European schools above.  However, it is also true that a careful attention to range and angling is important to both Filipino and European systems, I don't doubt that instruction in one style of martial art would lend itself to an appreciation of the other, if not a better understanding of how each style operates.

There is also the factor that in Filipino martial arts the type of "duel" that took place during the last century or so (with many exceptions) in the Philippines was done with hardwood sticks instead of blades.  A reliance on powerful strikes with the end of a hardwood stick to bony targets is obviously going to change the kinds of techniques that are utilized in Filipino arts (i.e. they're going to look different from European styles of fence that are as historically determined by the kinds of duels that gentlemen fought in the 16th to 20th centuries).  But if you look backwards towards earlier Filipino arts that privilage the use of the blade, e.g. Kalis Illustrisimo, you see techniques that start to mirror their European counterparts in terms of the economy of movement that a bladed weapon can afford, i.e., the blade does most of the work.

These are of course generalizatons and I am not saying anything at all like "bladed weapons arts are 'better' than stick arts," or "European arts are 'better' than Filipino arts," etc.  That kind of nonsense doesn't hold up to much scrutiny.  I think that one of the most interesting things about martial arts is how they are each the product of their own place and time, and that we should learn how to value the arts that we practice partly in that context.  For example, a friend of mine asked me recently why I thought that Momoy Canete's San Miguel Eskrima and Bacon's Balintawak looked so different, in spite of the fact that they trained together and both learned from the Saavedras.  One thing that came to mind was that Momoy's art was influenced by European fencing techniques (a teacher of mine once wrote that some aspects looked a lot like saber fencing), and remained anchored in a sword-duelist's mentality, while Bacon's art was forged through stick fights in the halls and streets of Cebu.

Anyway, I enjoyed the DVD's and they sparked a lot of thought about martial arts in general.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Christopher Umbs

Steve, I'm glad you enjoyed them.  The DVDs represent 16th and 17th century techniques.  My personal preference is for 19th c. French rapier which uses a much shorter blade (35" as opposed to 40" for someone of my height - 6ft.)  With the French, even though it's a lighter blade, I do far more cutting.  With the 40" blades, the cuts are relatively slow.  In the Italian school, it's possible to make a thrust against a cut that allows you to defend yourself and hit the opponent in the same action.  In general though, leading off with a cut gets you caught with a stop thrust.

Interestingly, the cane style that I prefer (and I've studied various French/Italian/English 19th c systems) is based off of my 19th c. Italian dueling sabre.

Chris


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## lhommedieu

Chris,

Interesting.  This is an exerpt from an article that Agapito Gonzalez wrote about San Miguel Eskrima:  

Interestingly the play of the garrote in some pre-arranged sparring drills resembles West European style of saber fencing.  Some primary strikes resemble powerful saber cuts with a possible influence of the classic Italian fencing school where the wrist and forearm move as one while pivoting from the elbow.  A static training posture may remind on of the offensive lunge in European fencing.  The basic parries to saber-like cuts correspond closely to the positions that form a fencers defensive box that covers his head and torso.

(http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Gallery/4831/agapito_momoy.html)

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Rocky

Steve!!! Its Rocky  I'll be in NYC in Aug, You still wann hook up and do Some San Migel and Balintawak???



Rocky :asian:


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## lhommedieu

Rocky,

Looking forward to that.  East Northport is about an 1 1/2 hours away from NYC, but if that's difficult, there's plenty of space to find in NYC.

It's possible that I may be travelling in August.  Last year it was Scotland; the year before was Tuscany.  This year I think we're laying low, however (I travel with family).

http://www.northshoreac.com/acupuncture/directions.htm

Best,

Steve


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## Oliver_r_gabuya

Brothers in arms. If you like to know about the history of San Miguel escrima ask Master Panto Flores. If you dont have idea who he is ask ramon robia, idring casio, dione cañete, pirsival. 

His teaching is similar to "tatay momoy" cañete. The website is still under construction but will be materialize by the end of this month. check www.filmocan.coms.ph. we will be posting videos soon.


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## lhommedieu

Welcome to the forum.  It's great to hear of someone else practicing San Miguel Eskrima.  Master Flores would be a son of one of Momoy's daughters, then?

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Oliver_r_gabuya

Yap. his good. i've never seen an eskrimador skills as gracefull as of his. If there's only someone out there that would support him establish a permanent gym, master panto's name will be acknowledge.

His really good


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## lhommedieu

Oliver,

I'll be visiting relatives in Pennsylvania and would be happy to meet with you in Harrisburg if that's still convenient.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## lhommedieu

A lot of the history regarding San Miguel Eskrima can be found on this URL (from my website):

http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/training.htm

There is a link to a biography of Momoy on the top of this page and another link to the San Miguel Eskrima Association web site.

The chapter in Mark Wiley's Filipino Fighting Arts about San Miguel Eskrima describes Tom Bisio's interpretation of Momoy Canete's Eskrima; the chapter in Rey Galang's book describes the development of San Miguel Eskrima within the Doce Pares Multi-Style organization.

Agapito Gonzalez' article is quite good, as is the one by Steve Drape.

My forward to Dan Anderson's Espada y Daga book places San Miguel Eskrima in a historical and cultural context with respect to the Saavedras.  I should add that it is only my opinion.

See also the following URL for some links to organizations that teach or are related somehow to San Miguel Eskrima:

http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/links.htm

The picture that you cite above is one of several that Tom Bisio gave to participants in his instructors' classes in 1995.  It captures perfectly what Tom has said initially attracted him to Momoy's art:  an expression of grace and relaxed power.  I'll ask Tom where it came from when I see him.

There was an extensive thread called "What is San Miguel Eskrima?" on MT a couple years ago; it's resurfaced recently as one of Momoy's grandsons is teaching his interpretation of the art and one of his students made a post about it.

I've also heard that Ramon Rubia from the San Miguel Eskrima Asosasyon, USA, has done a lot research in Cebu about Momoy and is probably your best source of information from the older generation of Doce Pares eskrimadors.

I should also note that Edring Casio is currently staying with his godson in San Diego and will be teaching a seminar this October.  Definitely worth a look at.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## lhommedieu

I've also been in contact (today) with Panto Flores of Cebu (Momoy's grandson, referred to above), who also has his interpretation of San Miguel Eskrima.  He made a post recently on MT, so perhaps he will follow up here.

Best,

Steve


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## Guro Harold

Mod Note:

- Threads combined. The newer redundant thread started by me has been removed.

- Picture from new thread added.

Palusut
MT Senior Moderator


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## lhommedieu

Just a followup:

Panto Flores' (Momoy's grandson) website is now up:  www.filmocan.com

There are some new videos about SME on Youtube, including an interview with Kano Canete (Momoy's son):





 
Best,

Steve Lamade


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## lhommedieu

lhommedieu said:


> Just a followup:
> 
> Panto Flores' (Momoy's grandson) website is now up: www.filmocan.com
> 
> There are some new videos about SME on Youtube, including an interview with Kano Canete (Momoy's son):


 
More YouTube video from Master Panto:

Filmocan Eskrima Single Stick:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qgzA8do_Iw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXYH6ofS-V0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUAMig2r4ro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX9mbq3D828

Filmocan Eskrima Single Knife:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX9mbq3D828

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi0_kyo8ejE

San Miguel Eskrima:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8h-uH_iusQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ttYeke3EXk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUKM1SnzZuA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8akaqjqC978

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0HmL5Xubzg

Best,

Steve


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## lhommedieu

There are a lot of YouTube videos about San Miguel Eskrima available since my last post, including clips of Dioney Cañete, Kano Cañete, Fredrico Mendoza, Panto Flores, Ramon Rubia, Anton St'James, etc.  A search for "San Miguel Eskrima" should pull up about 76 clips.

Following are those that deal specifically with the San Miguel Eskrima bullwhip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvCz_JlFiU0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbdkHXkLpwo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exViD1lLpq8...related&search=

See also this clip about Abner Pasa (at 02:07:00):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81xAaa4dCc4

A couple more with the leather bullwhip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfPm8BL3M-o&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdTrKcaS9es

Best,

Steve


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