# Bouncing Bouncing Bouncing ??



## RobBnTX (Nov 16, 2011)

How common is this in WTF style dojangs?  

Not the Sine-Wave taught in ITF schools but the constant bouncing on the balls of the feet that I have seen in a couple of WTF schools.  Is this something  relative new or what?  I have observed this even while they are doing kicking drills on heavy bags, instructors shouting out "more bounce, more bounce."  So what is everyone's opinion on this, good or bad?  

Just curious.

Thanks,
Rob


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## Nomad (Nov 16, 2011)

Not a TKD guy, but I've seen this used by some in sparring in other arts as well.  Personally, I don't like it, but from what I understand, it has advantages and disadvantages.  The advantages are that you're necessarily light on your feet, and that it's easier to fake the other person out.  The disadvantages are that you're not rooted, so the power of your techniques is likely lower, and it's possible for an opponent to disrupt your rhythm (most techniques can only be launched within a fraction of the "bounce" itself) with sometimes devastating results.


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## Buka (Nov 16, 2011)

It has become popular in the milieu in which it is used. As for anything else - a decent fighter will get the timing of a guy's bounce in less than three seconds. Then he'll hit him at the top of the bounce.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 16, 2011)

Its to make You look Unpredictable.

I have never done it and will never, ever do it. I believe its a Waste of Energy.

But its been around for over a Decade, and is very common in KKW/WTF Competition Training Dojangs, and also in a few less Non-Competition Theme Dojangs.
ITF Forms can do it as well, as well as numerous Karate Systems, a few other Martial Arts, and some Boxers do it as well.


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 16, 2011)

I like it if I already have a speed advantage, which is usually. I'm small for my weight class. I even do it in Judo shiai occasionally. It's also not as easy to get the timing as people seem to think it is, try sparring a TKD competitor. It's excellent for distorting an opponent's sense of timing.


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## Buka (Nov 16, 2011)

Don't get me wrong, if it works for someone in sparring or competition, then by all means do it. I would as well. But it's fairly easy to get the timing of the bounce if you have decent timing and decent speed. In old school TKD, it's almost like Christmas.


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 17, 2011)

If the fighter "Bounces" he should train to randomize the rythm of the bounce to avoid have someone time the bounce and use the dead zones against them. 

While being deeply rooted / kinetic linking is great for power, sparring is about scoring points and you don't need the power of a  4+ (real) board break to score or even injure someone.  You can generate sufficient power to break a couple of (real) boards being poorly rooted or unrooted. In fact, I consider the rooted requirements often found in Karate to be a noted distinction when it comes to TKD of generating power even if unrooted.


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## StudentCarl (Nov 17, 2011)

Buka said:


> Don't get me wrong, if it works for someone in sparring or competition, then by all means do it. I would as well. But it's fairly easy to get the timing of the bounce if you have decent timing and decent speed. In old school TKD, it's almost like Christmas.



It's fairly easy if you have someone playing pogo stick, but motion doesn't have to be predictable and it isn't with anyone of higher skill. Reading opponents is a two way street, and motion is also used to draw an attack. Good motion is very deceptive, and when it's combined with good checks it slows the reactions of the opponent...effectively making the attacker faster. It's oversimplistic to reduce sparring to timing a bounce once you're past the rookie level.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 17, 2011)

StudentCarl said:


> It's fairly easy if you have someone playing pogo stick, but motion doesn't have to be predictable and it isn't with anyone of higher skill. Reading opponents is a two way street, and motion is also used to draw an attack. Good motion is very deceptive, and when it's combined with good checks it slows the reactions of the opponent...effectively making the attacker faster. It's oversimplistic to reduce sparring to timing a bounce once you're past the rookie level.


I know what You mean - But You can also use Their Effort to Encourage an Attack to Encourage a Counter Attack.
For Example, say You come in with a Front Leg Front Kick. If they were to Counter with... Im going to assume a Round Kick from either side; But this would also work on a Side Kick, Back Kick, Roundhouse Kick, or Front Kick. And probably a few others; Switch Legs and Crescent Kick it out of the Air.
...Or if Youre following Tournament Rules (I just had to say the previous one. It works pretty well. Its just not a Competitive Sparring thing.), just switch backward, then throw Your Hips over into a better Round/Roundhouse Kick.

This is only an Example, not a Suggestion. But Im mainly saying that it could also be turned against them due to their intent itself. It can be used to force an Uncontrolled Exchange, with Your Initiative.


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## dancingalone (Nov 17, 2011)

Many karate tournaments allow sweeps and takedowns as do MMA matches.  You generally see a lot less bouncing in those settings for obvious reasons.


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2011)

We have MMA fighters who will 'bounce', they are usually from a boxing background. It's only the lighter weights that do it, over a certain weight and it becomes too tiring and draining. In karate as well it's only the skinny fast ones who can switch from left to right stance and back quickly that can get away with it.


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## Manny (Nov 17, 2011)

For my the bouncing-bouncing is a waste of time, bu tread please "for me", there are alot of guys who do competition that uses the bouncing-bouncing with sucess. I am a power guy, so my techs are pretty straight using all my weight and mass so as you mentioned I need to be conected to the ground, the thing I do is to move backwards, sideway,etc, but bouncing for me is a waste of energy.

When I did kenpo one pont fighting I got desapointed caus the kenpo guys did a lot of bouncing (not like the one TKDoings do I must say) and their techs were fast yes but lack of power and a simply slap to the ribbs with a side kick was a point, in the other hand my kicks and punches were not so fast but with considerable power.
Manny


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## RobBnTX (Nov 17, 2011)

Yeah but I am not just talking about sparring but I have seen  instructors who have students bouncing while doing kicking drills and  even heavy bag work.  I guess the idea is to get the student use to  bouncing so they do it while sparring but whew, seems like a lot of  cardio work to me, but I wonder how it wears on joints, especially older  joints (like mine!).  So if they do this in WTF schools these days, why  do they even bother to teach stances anymore?  I am not trying to be  too judgemental and in fact wanting to be open minded about it, but just  trying to wrap my brain around why TKD is being taught this way.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 17, 2011)

RobBnTX said:


> Yeah but I am not just talking about sparring but I have seen  instructors who have students bouncing while doing kicking drills and  even heavy bag work.
> 
> **nods**
> 
> ...



There We Go.


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## dancingalone (Nov 17, 2011)

RobBnTX said:


> So if they do this in WTF schools these days, why  do they even bother to teach stances anymore?



Traditional stances don't seem to be too applicable to the bulk of what I think of as sport TKD practice as the delivery systems and platforms are different.  It is another beast altogether from old school TKD which is fine. 

[yt]9ZUBQt-PRjo[/yt]


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## dancingalone (Nov 17, 2011)

"*It doesnt. It wears on the Muscles."

No, it's definitely wearing on your knees and back at the very least.  Lots of little shocks, jolts, and compressions going on.  It might not bother younger, fitter people, but it is surely impactful to others.
*


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Traditional stances don't seem to be too applicable to the bulk of what I think of as sport TKD practice as the delivery systems and platforms are different. It is another beast altogether from old school TKD which is fine.
> 
> [yt]9ZUBQt-PRjo[/yt]



Nice video! Fast, sharp, powerful kicks are one reason TKD does well in MMA, over here at any rate!


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## igillman (Nov 17, 2011)

I think that bouncing is one of those techniques that does not work well for everybody. It seems to work better for the younger/smaller crowd while it seems to be less applicable to us older/heavier people.


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 17, 2011)

Buka said:


> Don't get me wrong, if it works for someone in sparring or competition, then by all means do it. I would as well. But it's fairly easy to get the timing of the bounce if you have decent timing and decent speed. In old school TKD, it's almost like Christmas.



Like I said earlier, everyone thinks the timing is so easy to catch and it's really not. It's never even gotten me caught in Judo competition


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## ATC (Nov 17, 2011)

Bouncing is not predictable. Those that say it is are not sparring against anyone that knows what they are doing with the motion or movement. Also you don't kick at the top of your bounce either that would be jumping into you kick. So there is just as much power in the kick as someone that does not bounce. It take years of practice to understand how to use the bounce when sparring, this is why so many don't know how to do it correctly. The bounce is not rhythmic but un-rhythmic, those that just bounce in a rhythmic fashion don't understand what they are doing or why it is being done, they are just bouncing because they were told to.

Trying to explain it in a forum with typed words just can't be done. It takes a ton of training someone face to face and talking to them over and over for them to get it, so there is no way anyone can type out anything that would get you to understand. But I can tell you that it works and once you get it you understand why it works.


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## ATC (Nov 17, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Traditional stances don't seem to be too applicable to the bulk of what I think of as sport TKD practice as the delivery systems and platforms are different.It is another beast altogether from old school TKD which is fine.
> 
> [yt]9ZUBQt-PRjo[/yt]


Great video. Good sport TKD looks and is practiced the same everywhere.


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## RobinTKD (Nov 17, 2011)

I was sparring last night with a 2nd Dan who likes to bounce a lot, and to be fair, it works well for him, he's tall. skinny and has springs for legs and it helps him with jump kicks. I personally prefer to stay rooted, I tend to slide along the floor rather than step, and I like to fight close in so bouncing wouldn't help me. But as the video that dancingalone posted illustrates, it can work well, and you can generate power through leg and hip speed without necessarily having to stay planted.


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## wildcat91 (Nov 17, 2011)

Seemed to work OK for Bill Wallace!


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2011)

wildcat91 said:


> Seemed to work OK for Bill Wallace!



Ah but does he still do it now he's older?


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 17, 2011)

I like to make people who bounce, bounce more.  Off the floor.  Kinda fun.


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 17, 2011)

ATC said:


> *Bouncing is not predictable. Those that say it is are not sparring against anyone that knows what they are doing with the motion or movement. *Also you don't kick at the top of your bounce either that would be jumping into you kick. So there is just as much power in the kick as someone that does not bounce. It take years of practice to understand how to use the bounce when sparring, this is why so many don't know how to do it correctly. The bounce is not rhythmic but un-rhythmic, those that just bounce in a rhythmic fashion don't understand what they are doing or why it is being done, they are just bouncing because they were told to.
> 
> Trying to explain it in a forum with typed words just can't be done. It takes a ton of training someone face to face and talking to them over and over for them to get it, so there is no way anyone can type out anything that would get you to understand. But I can tell you that it works and once you get it you understand why it works.



Listen to ATC 

People don't seem to get that a trained sport fighter is just about impossible to catch out in anything resembling a fight. Even with no/less rules, he is still in the situation he trains for, which is a fight. I assure you that you cannot catch him on the top of his bounce by figuring out his timing.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 17, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> "*It doesnt. It wears on the Muscles."
> 
> No, it's definitely wearing on your knees and back at the very least.  Lots of little shocks, jolts, and compressions going on.  It might not bother younger, fitter people, but it is surely impactful to others.
> *


Well, Ive never heard that. Or seen it.
But hey


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 17, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Ah but does he still do it now he's older?



See link. This after 2 and a half hip replacements 

http://www.youtube.com/user/EarlWeiss#p/u/17/MszZiKVyhpk


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## Buka (Nov 17, 2011)

Least anyone think I'm ragging on our art from the posts I wrote, I am a fourth dan in Tae-Kwon-Do under Billy Blanks, who is under Master Jong Soo Park. They are old school. It was from them that I learned the timing of people bouncing. And even though I don't train it anymore (there's only so many hours in a day) I love Tae-Kwon-Do.

As for Bill Wallace, I trained with Bill, off and on, for many years. He has come to my school many times, I traveled abroad with him for weeks at a time fighting on the same team back in the eighties. I don't remember him ever bouncing. Tell you one thing, though. Bill Wallace could kick anyone he wanted, any time he wanted. Period. What makes that amazing is Bill only threw three kicks, Side Kick, Hook Kick, Roundhouse, all with ONLY the lead left leg. Damn, that man could kick.


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## mastercole (Nov 18, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Its to make You look Unpredictable.
> 
> I have never done it and will never, ever do it. I believe its a Waste of Energy.
> 
> ...



For a champion fighter (WTF, boxing, whatever) it's not a waste of time. Of course you would have to have fought against a true elite champion to understand.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 18, 2011)

mastercole said:


> For a champion fighter (WTF, boxing, whatever) it's not a waste of time. Of course you would have to have fought against a true elite champion to understand.


I never said it was a waste of time. I said that I find it to be a waste of energy. But see, everyone fights and spars differently. I get that this seriously works for alot of People. It does not, and never has worked for Me.

And its a bit interesting that You need to be an True Elite Champion to use it correctly, according to Your Reply.


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## StudentCarl (Nov 18, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> I never said it was a waste of time. I said that I find it to be a waste of energy. But see, everyone fights and spars differently. I get that this seriously works for alot of People. It does not, and never has worked for Me.
> 
> And its a bit interesting that You need to be an True Elite Champion to use it correctly, according to Your Reply.



Either you're playing with words or you missed the points Master Cole made. A waste is a waste, both time and energy. If you say it is one, then you are saying it is the other. I do agree that everyone fights and spars differently, but think it has not worked for you because you either have not been taught or not learned it correctly. Regarding the 'True Elite Champion', your logic is wrong. It doesn't mean that you have to be one to use it, but that you can see it very clearly with someone of that level. I bet there are many skills you have seen demonstrated that give you a real "aha" moment when you see them demonstrated by someone at a very high level. It's not that only an elite athlete can do it, but that they have polished the skill so much that you see it more clearly.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 18, 2011)

StudentCarl said:


> Either you're playing with words or you missed the points Master Cole made. A waste is a waste, both time and energy. If you say it is one, then you are saying it is the other. I do agree that everyone fights and spars differently, but think it has not worked for you because you either have not been taught or not learned it correctly. Regarding the 'True Elite Champion', your logic is wrong. It doesn't mean that you have to be one to use it, but that you can see it very clearly with someone of that level. I bet there are many skills you have seen demonstrated that give you a real "aha" moment when you see them demonstrated by someone at a very high level. It's not that only an elite athlete can do it, but that they have polished the skill so much that you see it more clearly.


Waste of Time =/= Waste of Energy. You cant just numb it down to the fact I said Waste.
I just dont like doing it. It isnt an "i dont understand it so i dont like it" thing.
Also, as for the True Elite Champion thing, those were not My Words, Mate  I was remarking on His Comment.
I also acknowledged that this seriously works for some People.

EDIT: Waste of Time Implies its Pointless. Waste of Energy Implies that Id rather not be using any Energy doing it. Its Preference.


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## Tez3 (Nov 18, 2011)

mastercole said:


> For a champion fighter (WTF, boxing, whatever) it's not a waste of time. Of course you would have to have fought against a true elite champion to understand.



I have to say that's an arrogant statement, the principle isn't hard to understand at all. It doesn't however work for everyone, the big heavyweights don't use it for fairly obvious reasons. And yes I know several 'true elite champions' in boxing, MMA, MT and full contact karate as well as kick boxing.


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## wildcat91 (Nov 18, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> "*It doesnt. It wears on the Muscles."
> 
> No, it's definitely wearing on your knees and back at the very least. Lots of little shocks, jolts, and compressions going on. It might not bother younger, fitter people, but it is surely impactful to others.
> *



I hear this in the gym all the time "I can't do squats, because of my knees" or "I can't deadlift because of my back".  when in reality it is "I can;t do .... because it's hard and it hurts" .  Yes when you are out of shape and start ecercising again things our going to hurt.  But in the end exerciseing helps to stengthen you muscles and stabilize your joints.  I don;t think anyone is advocating jumping up and down like a manical Kangaroo.  But in any sport, wheter it's Karate or baseball it helps your reaction when you are up on the balls of your feet rather than standing around flat footed.


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2011)

wildcat91 said:


> I hear this in the gym all the time "I can't do squats, because of my knees" or "I can't deadlift because of my back".  when in reality it is "I can;t do .... because it's hard and it hurts" .  Yes when you are out of shape and start ecercising again things our going to hurt.  But in the end exerciseing helps to stengthen you muscles and stabilize your joints.  I don;t think anyone is advocating jumping up and down like a manical Kangaroo.  But in any sport, wheter it's Karate or baseball it helps your reaction when you are up on the balls of your feet rather than standing around flat footed.



You can definitely train up to an activity and inured yourself to the negative effects of it.  People train to run marathons for example.  Regardless, it would be false to state that these activities aren't damaging to your body in the first place.  They are.  If we are fortunate we won't face the debilitating effects later on in life, and we can certainly mitigate a lot of it by training wisely to begin with, but to get to that we point we first have to recognize that it can be a damaging activity to our bodies.  

Now bouncing is not running or even kicking.  But it does jolt your feet, knees, and spine to an extent.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 18, 2011)

wildcat91 said:


> I hear this in the gym all the time "I can't do squats, because of my knees" or "I can't deadlift because of my back".  when in reality it is "I can;t do .... because it's hard and it hurts" .  Yes when you are out of shape and start ecercising again things our going to hurt.  But in the end exerciseing helps to stengthen you muscles and stabilize your joints.  I don;t think anyone is advocating jumping up and down like a manical Kangaroo.  But in any sport, wheter it's Karate or baseball it helps your reaction when you are up on the balls of your feet rather than standing around flat footed.


Ill just ensure the Distinction that you can Not-Bounce and still be on the Balls of Your Feet and moving Actively.


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## Tez3 (Nov 18, 2011)

wildcat91 said:


> I hear this in the gym all the time "I can't do squats, because of my knees" or "I can't deadlift because of my back". when in reality it is "I can;t do .... because it's hard and it hurts" . Yes when you are out of shape and start ecercising again things our going to hurt. But in the end exerciseing helps to stengthen you muscles and stabilize your joints. I don;t think anyone is advocating jumping up and down like a manical Kangaroo. But in any sport, wheter it's Karate or baseball it helps your reaction when you are up on the balls of your feet rather than standing around flat footed.



Depends on how old you are, after a certain age your knees and other joints will start aching as they literally wear out however much care you take during your life. Many young people don't actually take care, it doesn't hurt and so they don't think that forty odd years down the line their joints will suffer.


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## terryl965 (Nov 18, 2011)

Well let me chime in here, bouncing is a way to keep you opponet on the edge not knowing when and if you are coming. The one thing is bouncing alone has tells you can only kick when going up not on the down ward swing not enough power to lay into someone. You need hieght movement and in an out and side to side motion as well to confuse your opponet into attacking when you want them to. This is a game of chess being played out for the upper fighters. Even big guys uses the check and body motion up and down and side to side if they are doing olympis sparring. Now for those that do not I can certainly say there record would not be good against top teer fighters.

Now with all that being said that is why we do not see alot of top teer fighter pass thirty it \does take it toll on people knees and joints over the years.


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## ATC (Nov 18, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Now bouncing is not running or even kicking.  But it does jolt your feet, knees, and spine to an extent.


I think many are confusing bouncing with jumping. When I bounce I never leave the ground and when I do leave the ground it is to simply to move forward, backwards, or on an angle. Even this movement only has me maybe a millimeter off the ground. You should be using your calves to bounce with not your knees. If you calves are not burning after a good workout then you have been jumping not bouncing. You may at time have some space under your toes, again maybe a millimeter or so, but nothing more than that. And yes there is some strain on your ankles but nothing debilitating. You do more damage to the joint with the kick, the impact of the kick, and the twisting for the kick than you do with the bouncing, just my view on it.


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## Tez3 (Nov 18, 2011)

ATC said:


> I think many are confusing bouncing with jumping. When I bounce I never leave the ground and when I do leave the ground it is to simply to move forward, backwards, or on an angle. Even this movement only has me maybe a millimeter off the ground. You should be using your calves to bounce with not your knees. If you calves are not burning after a good workout then you have been jumping not bouncing. You may at time have some space under your toes, again maybe a millimeter or so, but nothing more than that. And yes there is some strain on your ankles but nothing debilitating. You do more damage to the joint with the kick, the impact of the kick, and the twisting for the kick than you do with the bouncing, just my view on it.



Again though I think this is best for the light skinny guys, for the heavy weights it uses a lot of effort to get an 18 stone or more body moving and to last throughout the fight.

PS a stone is 14 pounds.


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## ATC (Nov 18, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Again though I think this is best for the light skinny guys, for the heavy weights it uses a lot of effort to get an 18 stone or more body moving and to last throughout the fight.
> 
> PS a stone is 14 pounds.


That's to much math for me to do ;-)


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2011)

ATC said:


> Even this movement only has me maybe a millimeter off the ground.



A mere mm would not be discernible on video.  I wouldn't call that bouncing, vibrating maybe.  The people in the video are noticeably bobbing up and down...are you saying they are not in fact leaving the ground and are just moving up and down with their knees to produce the vertical height change?


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## Tez3 (Nov 18, 2011)

ATC said:


> That's to much math for me to do ;-)



I get that brain ache when watching American MMA, the weights are all in pounds. I'm used to stones and pounds but now we are metric it's kilograms, argh!

Over a certain weight though 'bouncing' isn't practicable however fit the fighters.


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## ATC (Nov 18, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> A mere mm would not be discernible on video.  I wouldn't call that bouncing, vibrating maybe.  The people in the video are noticeably bobbing up and down...are you saying they are not in fact leaving the ground and are just moving up and down with their knees to produce the vertical height change?


Think of it as alway being on your tip toes. You use your ankles and calves to to the up and down motion, as well as any forward, back, and angles. Every now and then you will have your toes come off the ground but not that much. I can get a good 4 to 5 inches of up and down movement with out leaving the ground. When moving horizontal you need some space between you and the matt so a couple of mm will be used.

I am 46 and still bounce fairly well. I have had 2 knee surguries from playing basketball and football and this bouncing does not bother my knees or ankles.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 18, 2011)

Like many things, I think it depends on why you are training. If you are training to get good at a 'sport' then bouncing is obviously the way to go, that may elite sportsmen cant be wrong. If you are training to learn to fight/defend yourself etc then there may be a different approach. Master cole would have been better using the term 'elite sportsman' not 'elite fighters'. I know when I see WTF sparring, I consider it sparring or sport, not fighting.


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## puunui (Nov 18, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> For Example, say You come in with a Front Leg Front Kick. If they were to Counter with... Im going to assume a Round Kick from either side; But this would also work on a Side Kick, Back Kick, Roundhouse Kick, or Front Kick. And probably a few others; Switch Legs and Crescent Kick it out of the Air.




Say you come in with a "Front Leg Front Kick"?


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## puunui (Nov 18, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> *No, it's definitely wearing on your knees and back at the very least.  Lots of little shocks, jolts, and compressions going on.  It might not bother younger, fitter people, but it is surely impactful to others.*


 f


Maybe if you train on a hardwood or concrete floor. Most taekwondoin today train on mats. I've done literally millions of bounces in my life and my knees and back are fine. Your body is a natural spring, and bouncing gets you in touch with that. I can remember when I did not understand what the Modern Training Methods were about and when I first started experimenting with bouncing, it was tiring and I did feel like I was wasting a lot of energy with that. But I continued, and reached a point where I understood what bouncing was about. Modern competition sparring under the WTF Rules incorporates all sorts of stances, footwork and strategies. For example, "bouncing" is something that is done when outside of range as a general rule, something that you wouldn't necessarily do when inside. There is also a lot of "rooting" or using the ground to generate power. But I would say it is a dynamic rooting, rooting in movement, and not like you are planted like a tree. You can see advanced players gripping the mat, and doing all sorts of subtle things in preparation for power generation. The highest expression of Taekwondo competition techniques is the effortlessness in generating maximum speed and power, the point I believe Master Cole, ATC and others were hinting at in their posts. It is something that is difficult to explain in words on a bulletin board, and much easier to show or demonstrate in real life.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> Say you come in with a "Front Leg Front Kick"?


A Front Kick with the Front Leg 
Optionally, Lead Leg Front Kick. Either way is Correct.

(And I know You know what I meant. Im deliberately Misinterpreting You. Because theres about Five ways I could Read that )


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 18, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> A Front Kick with the Front Leg
> Optionally, Lead Leg Front Kick. Either way is Correct.
> 
> (And I know You know what I meant. Im deliberately Misinterpreting You. Because theres about Five ways I could Read that )


we all know what you meant. Some people just like to stir the pot


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## seasoned (Nov 19, 2011)

Bruce lee was bouncing 40 years age. It is not a new thing..............


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## Tez3 (Nov 19, 2011)

There should be another word to describe it, 'bouncing' sounds like something a child does!


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## mastercole (Nov 19, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> I never said it was a waste of time. I said that I find it to be a waste of energy. But see, everyone fights and spars differently. I get that this seriously works for alot of People. It does not, and never has worked for Me.
> 
> And its a bit interesting that You need to be an True Elite Champion to use it correctly, according to Your Reply.



I get it, so following the training methods of elite level practitioners is a waste of your energy. If you prefer to continue the use of non-elite novice methods, cool, I won't argue with that.


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## mastercole (Nov 19, 2011)

StudentCarl said:


> Either you're playing with words or you missed the points Master Cole made. A waste is a waste, both time and energy. If you say it is one, then you are saying it is the other. I do agree that everyone fights and spars differently, but think it has not worked for you because you either have not been taught or not learned it correctly. Regarding the 'True Elite Champion', your logic is wrong. It doesn't mean that you have to be one to use it, but that you can see it very clearly with someone of that level. I bet there are many skills you have seen demonstrated that give you a real "aha" moment when you see them demonstrated by someone at a very high level. It's not that only an elite athlete can do it, but that they have polished the skill so much that you see it more clearly.



Your point is good, there is a lot to learn, and not by just watching and forming an opinion.  You have to work on it, for a while to get it.  It's easy to just keep doing the same old thing, it's hard work to make a change, to improve.


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## mastercole (Nov 19, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I have to say that's an arrogant statement, the principle isn't hard to understand at all. It doesn't however work for everyone, the big heavyweights don't use it for fairly obvious reasons. And yes I know several 'true elite champions' in boxing, MMA, MT and full contact karate as well as kick boxing.



Form reading some of your post, I can see where you would feel that way.  I think US President Harry S. Truman said it best;    _"I never gave anybody hell! I just told the truth and they thought it was hell." ~ Harry S. Truman

_But please, tell us about your training with those champions, and who they are.  Thanks!


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## mastercole (Nov 19, 2011)

wildcat91 said:


> I hear this in the gym all the time "I can't do squats, because of my knees" or "I can't deadlift because of my back".  when in reality it is "I can;t do .... because it's hard and it hurts" .  Yes when you are out of shape and start ecercising again things our going to hurt.  But in the end exerciseing helps to stengthen you muscles and stabilize your joints.  I don;t think anyone is advocating jumping up and down like a manical Kangaroo.  But in any sport, wheter it's Karate or baseball it helps your reaction when you are up on the balls of your feet rather than standing around flat footed.



Exactly.  So when in the outside world, when some criminal decides to attack you, your default reaction is not to just stand there.  Oh and if you do have the ability to move, if you are trained to move a lot, you will then have the ability to move quickly and accurately, in the proper time, to give the proper response.


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## mastercole (Nov 19, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Ill just ensure the Distinction that you can Not-Bounce and still be on the Balls of Your Feet and moving Actively.



Maybe some fighters bounce all the time, non stop. Personally, I don't see much constant bouncing these days, at least not at the international level.  I see that fighters make adjustments, set, move, set, step, set, adjust, check, some give lot's of motion, some a little less, it's not necessarily bouncing.  But in training, they will practice a lot of bouncing around, directional, not standing in one spot. It's part of footwork training, and very important in any kind of fighting. Of course it might look like bouncing, whatever that is supposed to mean, to a novice.


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## mastercole (Nov 19, 2011)

Age and weight?  As long as you have not previously injured yourself, or have some medical condition, anyone at most any age can jump rope.  That's a lot of "bouncing." 

It boils down to [correct technique] and [correct training methods].  A person must research and find these, sometimes on their own, hopefully from a true expert.  If you train correctly, you are training for health, and that will only be good for you, and not wear out your body.  The human body is made to be stressed, in the right way.  Stress it in the wrong way, with bad technique and incorrect training methods and it will break down.

Train smarter.


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## mastercole (Nov 19, 2011)

ATC said:


> I think many are confusing bouncing with jumping. When I bounce I never leave the ground and when I do leave the ground it is to simply to move forward, backwards, or on an angle. Even this movement only has me maybe a millimeter off the ground. You should be using your calves to bounce with not your knees. If you calves are not burning after a good workout then you have been jumping not bouncing. You may at time have some space under your toes, again maybe a millimeter or so, but nothing more than that. And yes there is some strain on your ankles but nothing debilitating. You do more damage to the joint with the kick, the impact of the kick, and the twisting for the kick than you do with the bouncing, just my view on it.



I agree with most of what you wrote. I would add that the more one perfects their technique, the less wear and tear they have to worry about.  A term like sport specific, while used to develop a specific action, can also be use, in the proper way, to help perfect the complete technique.

A true martial artist, like a true athlete, will research out the best methods. Glenn call's it modern training methods, and that is probably the best term, it allows for constant improvement, creating a tradition of improvement, and learning.


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## mastercole (Nov 19, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Like many things, I think it depends on why you are training. If you are training to get good at a 'sport' then bouncing is obviously the way to go, that may elite sportsmen cant be wrong. If you are training to learn to fight/defend yourself etc then there may be a different approach. Master cole would have been better using the term 'elite sportsman' not 'elite fighters'. I know when I see WTF sparring, I consider it sparring or sport, not fighting.



I guess if I still attended local level WTF events, I might feel like it was just fun and games.  I'm fortunate to have become accustomed to international level WTF events, so I see something very different.  I think anyone would call the martial artist who compete in international WTF events "fighters", especially after they experienced training with them, and if they had the balls, sparring against them.  But it seems that is not a common experience, unfortunately.


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## StudentCarl (Nov 19, 2011)

mastercole said:


> Your point is good, there is a lot to learn, and not by just watching and forming an opinion. You have to work on it, for a while to get it. It's easy to just keep doing the same old thing, it's hard work to make a change, to improve.



Instruction makes more sense when the demonstration accompanying it is at a very high and technically sound level. I have few opportunities to attend seminars with instructors who have international experience, but I find the clarity of their instruction to be very, very valuable. Just "working on it" without that high-level feedback can make a person excellent at doing it wrong and/or totally miss the correct technique while thinking one has tapped the full potential.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 19, 2011)

mastercole said:


> I guess if I still attended local level WTF events, I might feel like it was just fun and games.  I'm fortunate to have become accustomed to international level WTF events, so I see something very different.  I think anyone would call the martial artist who compete in international WTF events "fighters", especially after they experienced training with them, and if they had the balls, sparring against them.  But it seems that is not a common experience, unfortunately.


That school of thought works both ways. To say people "dont have the balls" is a little narrow minded. Id hate to spar an olympic wtf guy because it would be under his ruleset, he would kick the crap out of me as I just couldnt adjust to fighting under that ruleset, also they are full time athletes. I wonder if one of these elite 'fighters' would 'have the balls' to have a go outside of their usual ruleset. For example, how would aaron cook go in the ufc? He would get killed, not because he's no good, but because it is not a ruleset he is familiar with or a ruleset he has trained for. Im sure aaron would realise this and would not put himself in that position. Thats because he's smart, not because he 'doesnt have the balls' as you put it. The same can be said for these people you are saying 'dont have the balls', I dont think anyone is stupid enough to take on an elite sportsman at a game they've never played, particularly one where you can get knocked out.


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## seasoned (Nov 19, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> There should be another word to describe it, 'bouncing' sounds like something a child does!


Yes bouncing does sound like,  "something a child does". We called it agility drill, and did it as part of our warm up. It made for strong calf muscles, and helped with endurance and jumping.

It is like skipping rope, without the rope. A variety of foot movements with broken patterns so as to confuse your opponent. By moving around in this manor your opponent never really knows when the "real attack" is coming. 
You are never caught flat footed, and you create a rhythm of hand fakes with in and out body movements. 
Mohamed ali was successful with a form of it, as was Bruce Lee. It is strictly tournament oriented, and has NO place in the true tenants of Martial Arts.
But as Bill said, in so many words, if you find yourself at the end of a bouncers foot, ribs will break.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 19, 2011)

mastercole said:


> I get it, so following the training methods of elite level practitioners is a waste of your energy. If you prefer to continue the use of non-elite novice methods, cool, I won't argue with that.


No, I find Bouncing to be a Waste of Energy for Me. Not the Training Methods of Elite Level Practitioners.
Besides - I can find alot of People who Agree that Basics>Complicated.


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## dancingalone (Nov 19, 2011)

puunui said:


> Maybe if you train on a hardwood or concrete floor. Most taekwondoin today train on mats.



A valid point.  Certainly the surface you train on is a major factor.



puunui said:


> I've done literally millions of bounces in my life and my knees and back are fine. Your body is a natural spring, and bouncing gets you in touch with that. I can remember when I did not understand what the Modern Training Methods were about and when I first started experimenting with bouncing, it was tiring and I did feel like I was wasting a lot of energy with that. But I continued, and reached a point where I understood what bouncing was about. Modern competition sparring under the WTF Rules incorporates all sorts of stances, footwork and strategies. For example, "bouncing" is something that is done when outside of range as a general rule, something that you wouldn't necessarily do when inside. There is also a lot of "rooting" or using the ground to generate power. But I would say it is a dynamic rooting, rooting in movement, and not like you are planted like a tree. You can see advanced players gripping the mat, and doing all sorts of subtle things in preparation for power generation. The highest expression of Taekwondo competition techniques is the effortlessness in generating maximum speed and power, the point I believe Master Cole, ATC and others were hinting at in their posts. It is something that is difficult to explain in words on a bulletin board, and much easier to show or demonstrate in real life.



Could you let me know if you actually leave the ground or is your bouncing method the same as ATC described, where the bouncing is just a series of toe/ball of foot lifts?  I'm fairly convinced a bunch of the stuff we see on Youtube actually has the competitors executing mini-jumps, but I can accept that is wrong if that is the consensus given.


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## dancingalone (Nov 19, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> That school of thought works both ways. To say people "dont have the balls" is a little narrow minded. Id hate to spar an olympic wtf guy because it would be under his ruleset, he would kick the crap out of me as I just couldnt adjust to fighting under that ruleset, also they are full time athletes.



Yep.  I'd love the chance to spar with an Olympic style guy under my own arbitrary rule set.  Staves or tonfa allowed?  Or perhaps we start in a clinch first?  Heck we can even call it fighting if we want.


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## mastercole (Nov 20, 2011)

StudentCarl said:


> Instruction makes more sense when the demonstration accompanying it is at a very high and technically sound level. I have few opportunities to attend seminars with instructors who have international experience, but I find the clarity of their instruction to be very, very valuable. Just "working on it" without that high-level feedback can make a person excellent at doing it wrong and/or totally miss the correct technique while thinking one has tapped the full potential.



Certainly, you must have good instruction and guidance during this process.


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## mastercole (Nov 20, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> That school of thought works both ways. To say people "dont have the balls" is a little narrow minded. Id hate to spar an olympic wtf guy because it would be under his ruleset, he would kick the crap out of me as I just couldnt adjust to fighting under that ruleset, also they are full time athletes. I wonder if one of these elite 'fighters' would 'have the balls' to have a go outside of their usual ruleset. For example, how would aaron cook go in the ufc? He would get killed, not because he's no good, but because it is not a ruleset he is familiar with or a ruleset he has trained for. Im sure aaron would realise this and would not put himself in that position. Thats because he's smart, not because he 'doesnt have the balls' as you put it. The same can be said for these people you are saying 'dont have the balls', I dont think anyone is stupid enough to take on an elite sportsman at a game they've never played, particularly one where you can get knocked out.



Last time I looked, this was the Taekwondo board. And we are talking about Taekwondo, I assume.  Anyway, that is interesting, you have never sparred against and elite Taekwondo fighter, but you have some special knowledge in regard to how a fight outside of Taekwondo would turn out for him?  Neat.


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## mastercole (Nov 20, 2011)

seasoned said:


> Yes bouncing does sound like,  "something a child does". We called it agility drill, and did it as part of our warm up. It made for strong calf muscles, and helped with endurance and jumping.
> 
> It is like skipping rope, without the rope. A variety of foot movements with broken patterns so as to confuse your opponent. By moving around in this manor your opponent never really knows when the "real attack" is coming.
> You are never caught flat footed, and you create a rhythm of hand fakes with in and out body movements.
> ...



Not sure what "It is strictly tournament oriented, and has NO place in the true tenants of Martial Arts." means, please expand.


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## mastercole (Nov 20, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Yep.  I'd love the chance to spar with an Olympic style guy under my own arbitrary rule set.  Staves or tonfa allowed?  Or perhaps we start in a clinch first?  Heck we can even call it fighting if we want.



Since you would love it, how come you have never experienced it?  Assuming you are a Taekwondo practitioner, on the Taekwondo board, I would think you should have had a chance over the years.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 20, 2011)

mastercole said:


> Maybe some fighters bounce all the time, non stop. Personally, I don't see much constant bouncing these days, at least not at the international level. I see that fighters make adjustments, set, move, set, step, set, adjust, check, some give lot's of motion, some a little less, it's not necessarily bouncing. But in training, they will practice a lot of bouncing around, directional, not standing in one spot. It's part of footwork training, and very important in any kind of fighting. Of course it might look like bouncing, whatever that is supposed to mean, to a novice.



Mm, didnt see this one.

If Youre going to Move Around alot, it works just fine to Practice that, unto Itself.
I will reiterate, that I understand why Bouncing is used. Ive repeated a few times that I realize full well it works for People, and that this isnt some stupid "i dont understand its so hard i dont like it waah" Situation. This is Personal Choice.

I choose to not use it, because I personally do not like it, for Me, Personally.

We are free to Agree to Disagree.


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## seasoned (Nov 20, 2011)

mastercole said:


> Not sure what "It is strictly tournament oriented, and has NO place in the true tenants of Martial Arts." means, please expand.


Coming from a traditional kata based system, never once did I learn or teach a kata that had bouncing techniques in it. The bouncing referred to in the OP involves a sparring type situation, where you are trying to outwit an opponent. 
It all depends on where your mindset is coming from as to whether *you* bounce, or your bouncing them. It seems rather elementary to have to explain this.
So to answer the OP, "good for tournament, bad for self defense".


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## dancingalone (Nov 20, 2011)

mastercole said:


> Since you would love it, how come you have never experienced it?  Assuming you are a Taekwondo practitioner, on the Taekwondo board, I would think you should have had a chance over the years.




My statement was hyperbole of course to highlight how absurd your statements are.  It is an crazy proposition to think an unarmed kicker, no matter how 'elite' he is, is going to do much against someone well-trained with a staff.  Just as it is fool-hardy to think anyone who doesn't train Olympic rules TKD is going to do well against one who does in that rule set.

As I've mentioned many times before here, we become good at what we train at.  The fallacy is thinking that because someone becomes good in one arena, he then also becomes equally effective in all others as well.  Yet that seems to be the conclusion you make time and time again when you compare your 'elite fighters' against other martial artists who train entirely different things than you do.  Not all tae kwon do is the same by any stretch of the imagination.


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## StudentCarl (Nov 20, 2011)

seasoned said:


> So to answer the OP, "good for tournament, bad for self defense".


I would say bad for defense where you are responding to an attack already in progress and thus likely already in range. I'd add that the surface you're on should also affect your movement. But in a defensive situation where _you cannot escape but your attacker is not yet in range_, I absolutely think movement has every bit of the advantage it gives Taekwondo athletes. It helps me obsure your reading of how far I can reach, and it hides the startup of my attack which makes me effectively faster. Done right, it also confuses you about whether you are about to kiss my hand or my foot.


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## RobinTKD (Nov 20, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Not all tae kwon do is the same by any stretch of the imagination.



I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. If an 'Elite' fighter wants so come and spar how we do at class, I'd gladly show him how to defend against a well placed elbow or back-fist or how to punch someone in the head properly. Just as if i sparred to their ruleset, i'm sure they'd enjoy landing lots of lovely round kicks to my face totally unguarded.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 20, 2011)

mastercole said:


> Last time I looked, this was the Taekwondo board. And we are talking about Taekwondo, I assume.  Anyway, that is interesting, you have never sparred against and elite Taekwondo fighter, but you have some special knowledge in regard to how a fight outside of Taekwondo would turn out for him?  Neat.


yes this is a tkd board and it may open your eyes up to the fact that not all tkdists do kkw/wtf style tkd. I have done tkd for 6 years, i dont do kkw style, in fact i couldnt even tell you how the scoring works in a sport tkd match. Many here dont do kkw tkd, so obviously many here would not have sparred under that ruleset.


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## seasoned (Nov 20, 2011)

StudentCarl said:


> I would say bad for defense where you are responding to an attack already in progress and thus likely already in range. I'd add that the surface you're on should also affect your movement. But in a defensive situation where _you cannot escape but your attacker is not yet in range_, I absolutely think movement has every bit of the advantage it gives Taekwondo athletes. It helps me obsure your reading of how far I can reach, and it hides the startup of my attack which makes me effectively faster. Done right, it also confuses you about whether you are about to kiss my hand or my foot.


Agreed, but, there may be some age restrictions pertaining to us older folks, that may need to conserve some energy for first contact of course.


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## mastercole (Nov 20, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> My statement was hyperbole of course to highlight how absurd your statements are.  It is an crazy proposition to think an unarmed kicker, no matter how 'elite' he is, is going to do much against someone well-trained with a staff.  Just as it is fool-hardy to think anyone who doesn't train Olympic rules TKD is going to do well against one who does in that rule set.
> 
> As I've mentioned many times before here, we become good at what we train at.  The fallacy is thinking that because someone becomes good in one arena, he then also becomes equally effective in all others as well.  Yet that seems to be the conclusion you make time and time again when you compare your 'elite fighters' against other martial artists who train entirely different things than you do.  Not all tae kwon do is the same by any stretch of the imagination.



So last time it was a big knife, now it's a staff.  And you want to call my statements absurd, crazy and fool-hardy. ROFLMAO   Where is the ignore button.


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## mastercole (Nov 20, 2011)

seasoned said:


> Coming from a traditional kata based system, never once did I learn or teach a kata that had bouncing techniques in it. The bouncing referred to in the OP involves a sparring type situation, where you are trying to outwit an opponent.
> It all depends on where your mindset is coming from as to whether *you* bounce, or your bouncing them. It seems rather elementary to have to explain this.
> So to answer the OP, "good for tournament, bad for self defense".



and you know it's bad for self defense because?


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## mastercole (Nov 20, 2011)

RobinTKD said:


> I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. If an 'Elite' fighter wants so come and spar how we do at class, I'd gladly show him how to defend against a well placed elbow or back-fist or how to punch someone in the head properly. Just as if i sparred to their ruleset, i'm sure they'd enjoy landing lots of lovely round kicks to my face totally unguarded.



What if those well placed elbow and backfist actually meant to hit you, with all out full force, at full speed, in an unpredictable setting during sparring, allowed to hit the face and ribs as hard as they can with no holding back?  Do you practice that?


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 20, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Yep.  I'd love the chance to spar with an Olympic style guy under my own arbitrary rule set.  Staves or tonfa allowed?  Or perhaps we start in a clinch first?  Heck we can even call it fighting if we want.



Let's reiterate something I've been saying for ages that not that many people seem to get. The Olympic style guy, even competing in regional tournaments only, has fought every single guy at his weight and belt level over the course of his competition career. That means he has had full contact matches with different fighters with different strategies over and over and over again. What he's doing is fighting. The way you learn how to fight is by fighting as many different people as you can with as many different approaches as you can. If I can land a good, powerful round house kick that drops a black belt who is actively trying to launch my head into the stands and has been training for 7-8 years to do just that, what exactly changes when I want to do the same thing to an untrained thug? Rhetorical question. Nothing changes. Variables are variables and they exist in the ring too. 

As for your sparring scenario, I'd be more than up for it. Staves, fine, I've trained with them. So has every other WTF guy. Same goes for Tonfa. Clinch, all I have to do is decide if I want to break it and get my range back or use one of the throws myself and every other WTF guy learns. Even better, I'm a sport Judo player too. Same thing. What makes you so hard to throw compared to another competitive Judoka? What makes you so hard to kick/punch compared to a competitive TKD player?

It's easy, scarily easy, to tell who hasn't trained sport TaeKwonDo.


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## mastercole (Nov 20, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> yes this is a tkd board and it may open your eyes up to the fact that not all tkdists do kkw/wtf style tkd. I have done tkd for 6 years, i dont do kkw style, in fact i couldnt even tell you how the scoring works in a sport tkd match. Many here dont do kkw tkd, so obviously many here would not have sparred under that ruleset.



That is to bad that, as you say, many would not have sparred under that rule set, the greater experience you have, the more you learn. Over the past four decades, I have been fortunate to have trained in various Karate styles and types of Taekwondo/ tae kwon do / Taekwon-do. For me, it was good to have had that experience, and then open my eyes as you call it, and realize that Kukkiwon is the genuine article, when it comes to Taekwondo.  It was a natural progression.  I was also fortunate, later on, after started learning Kukkiwon Taekwondo, to get involved in the WTF side of things as well. 

As for other types of tae kwon do / Taekwon-do, been there, done that. To me, they are archaic and backwards. I look forward to progress, as I always have.

By the way. the Kukkiwon, and WTF are very different things.


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## mastercole (Nov 20, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> Let's reiterate something I've been saying for ages that not that many people seem to get. The Olympic style guy, even competing in regional tournaments only, has fought every single guy at his weight and belt level over the course of his competition career. That means he has had full contact matches with different fighters with different strategies over and over and over again. What he's doing is fighting. The way you learn how to fight is by fighting as many different people as you can with as many different approaches as you can. If I can land a good, powerful round house kick that drops a black belt who is actively trying to launch my head into the stands and has been training for 7-8 years to do just that, what exactly changes when I want to do the same thing to an untrained thug? Rhetorical question. Nothing changes. Variables are variables and they exist in the ring too.
> 
> As for your sparring scenario, I'd be more than up for it. Staves, fine, I've trained with them. So has every other WTF guy. Same goes for Tonfa. Clinch, all I have to do is decide if I want to break it and get my range back or use one of the throws myself and every other WTF guy learns. Even better, I'm a sport Judo player too. Same thing. What makes you so hard to throw compared to another competitive Judoka? What makes you so hard to kick/punch compared to a competitive TKD player?
> 
> It's easy, scarily easy, to tell who hasn't trained sport TaeKwonDo.



I agree with you 100%.  I come from a karate, old school tae kwon do background, and I can tell you from experience, Kukkiwon Taekwondo is superior, in every way. The old men who were teachers of all of our teachers made it so, they started the ball of improvement rolling, and they endorse the improved curriculum that Kukkiwon follows, and they endorse the elite modern training methods of WTF fighters.  These are men in their 90's, who were grinding out Pyongahn's, in duck stances back before any of us were. They say the evolved system is better.

So some people think they are being "traditional" by not following the Kukkiwon, but in fact, they are not following their big seniors, and that is not traditional at all.

Here is something I wrote a while back and posted somewhere a while back about Olympic sparring.
----
I will also say this about sparring. Taekwondo has within it, many types of sparring. However, some people are critical the most well known type, Shihap Kyorugi, the type of Taekwondo competition found in the Olympics. But Shihap Kyorugi was invented with Self Defense in mind just as much as it was hoped to be an international sporting event. Our intelligent seniors made it both a self defense practice, and an international sporting event.

 Here was there thinking, according to GM Chong Woo Lee, also in his 80's

 - bare fist and foot to strike the target forces the use of correct shape of technique, not a covered hand and foot which changes the technique and allows it to be sloppy.

 - full force blows, as used in self defense because we must learn to deliver them as well as roll with them to survive a fight

 - limit techniques to the most basic gross motor striking skills, as fine motor skills usually go out the window in a fight, and the most dangerous and violent attacks that do the most damage to humans come from those gross motor striking skills, we must learn to defend against them

 - limited target area, making that area easier to defend and harder to successfully attack, thereby forcing the attacking techniques to a higher skill level in order to defeat the well defended target area

 - allowing knockout, thus adding intense psychological pressure. This places REAL fear into the equation, and fear is the emotional obstruction to a clear mindset, where decision to action has to occur seamlessly, without hesitation. Indecision is the Grim Reaper of self defense and fear brings it forth at the worst time

 The International Olympic Committee considered these factors of realism (along with other factors) and accepted Shihap Kyorugi as an Olympic event.


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## mastercole (Nov 20, 2011)

Trace your Taekwondo back to it's root Kwan.  What are those Kwan's doing today?  You will likely find that your root Kwan was involved in the formation of the current Taekwondo curriculum, which was adopted by the Kukkiwon from the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA) back before the Kukkiwon had it's current name, when it was called by it's original name "The Korea Taekwondo Association Central Gymnasium"

So the Kukkiwon did not create much of anything, the unified Kwan's did, the KTA used the unified Kwan's creation as the KTA standard, Kukkiwon adopted it.

Where does the WTF come in?  It was nothing more than a tournament committee, formed by Taekwondo team leaders from 11 nations (maybe a few more). It's purpose, to run tournaments.

There is no such thing as WTF style, or WTF curriculum, etc. The WTF never created anything.


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## dancingalone (Nov 20, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> Let's reiterate something I've been saying for ages that not that many people seem to get. The Olympic style guy, even competing in regional tournaments only, has fought every single guy at his weight and belt level over the course of his competition career. That means he has had full contact matches with different fighters with different strategies over and over and over again. What he's doing is fighting. The way you learn how to fight is by fighting as many different people as you can with as many different approaches as you can. If I can land a good, powerful round house kick that drops a black belt who is actively trying to launch my head into the stands and has been training for 7-8 years to do just that, what exactly changes when I want to do the same thing to an untrained thug? Rhetorical question. Nothing changes. Variables are variables and they exist in the ring too.



No, what he is doing is SPARRING by a a specific rule set which rewards kicking.  Something you're not thinking about:  other people spar too, albeit with other rules that likewise lead to the development of different strategies and tactics than what an Olympic TKD guy would employ.  Other people work hard too and they hit hard too.  The argument that an Olympic guy gets to face a lot of high caliber opposition seems intuitively true, but so does any martial artist that trains in a system that offers competitive opportunities - judo, BJJ, boxing/kickboxing, etc.  The point I make here is that it's dangerous and eroneous to generalize about other people's training, and it seems almost like some are setting up a classic false comparison with the 'elite' Olympic rules TKD guy vs. Joe Strip Mall Dojang who trains about 2 hours a week if he's lucky.  In that case it's no comparison at all and the difference isn't in training methodology at all - it's about training period. 



ETinCYQX said:


> As for your sparring scenario, I'd be more than up for it. Staves, fine, I've trained with them. So has every other WTF guy. Same goes for Tonfa. Clinch, all I have to do is decide if I want to break it and get my range back or use one of the throws myself and every other WTF guy learns. Even better, I'm a sport Judo player too. Same thing. What makes you so hard to throw compared to another competitive Judoka? What makes you so hard to kick/punch compared to a competitive TKD player?
> 
> It's easy, scarily easy, to tell who hasn't trained sport TaeKwonDo.



I could likewise say it is extremely evident that you have not trained weapons to a high level.  Do you seriously think an unarmed kicker no matter how skilled is not at a crippling disadvantage to a competent bo wielder?  In the hands of someone competent, the staff is an extension of the person's center.  He will negate the distancing advantage even a great kicker has, and if you think a kick has devastating power, you haven't seen what a blow from a hardwood staff can do from someone who can create leverage from the deceptive angles a 6 feet weapon has.  And no, I don't believe a significant percentage of the Olympic TKD athletes out there have trained the staff or tonfa to a high level, much less every WTF guy as you assert.  I'm aware that weapons is not a part of KKW curriculum - it would be unlikely indeed that every 'WTF guy' absent a mandate from above would devote a significant commitment of resources towards something that isn't even recognized as an official part of TKD by either the KKW or the ITF.  Time is a finite resource after all.  I KNOW what it takes become expert with one, and you're underestimating what real accomplishment it is to become a kobudo expert.

As for myself since you are addressing me, there is nothing that makes me so hard to throw other than I have trained extensively in the close, grappling range and I can comfortably defend, strike, connect, and control within this distance.  Likewise, I have developed strong hand strikes over the years with hand conditioning and disciplined makiwara practice, but I suppose there's always someone better.  The difference is I'm fully aware there are arenas that I have not trained for where it would be foolish for me to talk about how I could clean up just by showing up.  I'm not sure others have the same perspective - they think being strong in one facet means the strength follows them around everywhere.


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## dancingalone (Nov 20, 2011)

mastercole said:


> I agree with you 100%.  I come from a karate, old school tae kwon do background, and I can tell you from experience, Kukkiwon Taekwondo is superior, in every way.



You'd better qualify that by adding 'in my opinion' otherwise you're coming dangerously close to style-bashing, something I believe is not permitted within the MT site rules.

The sentence I quoted above is an example of why you attract controversy here, almost as if by choice.  A thoughtful post would have also included at the very least an outline of why think your version of TKD is superior in every way (an interesting proposition if you or anyone else could back it up with reasoned arguments).  



			
				mastercole said:
			
		

> So last time it was a big knife, now it's a staff.  And you want to call  my statements absurd, crazy and fool-hardy. ROFLMAO   Where is the  ignore button.



I'd say you are trolling to elicit a response out of others, but I actually think you're serious about everything you're writing.  I don't plan to put you on ignore - you're entertaining at times even when you are very, very wrong because you can't ever admit you're wrong and you'll go through all sorts of contortions as a result.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 20, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> No, what he is doing is SPARRING by a a specific rule set which rewards kicking.  Something you're not thinking about:  other people spar too, albeit with other rules that likewise lead to the development of different strategies and tactics than what an Olympic TKD guy would employ.  Other people work hard too and they hit hard too.  The argument that an Olympic guy gets to face a lot of high caliber opposition seems intuitively true, but so does any martial artist that trains in a system that offers competitive opportunities - judo, BJJ, boxing/kickboxing, etc.  The point I make here is that it's dangerous and eroneous to generalize about other people's training, and it seems almost like some are setting up a classic false comparison with the 'elite' Olympic rules TKD guy vs. Joe Strip Mall Dojang who trains about 2 hours a week if he's lucky.  In that case it's no comparison at all and the difference isn't in training methodology at all - it's about training period.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very well said, and obviously written by someone who has vast experience in martial arts.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 20, 2011)

mastercole said:


> I agree with you 100%.  I come from a karate, old school tae kwon do background, and I can tell you from experience, Kukkiwon Taekwondo is superior, in every way. The old men who were teachers of all of our teachers made it so, they started the ball of improvement rolling, and they endorse the improved curriculum that Kukkiwon follows, and they endorse the elite modern training methods of WTF fighters.  These are men in their 90's, who were grinding out Pyongahn's, in duck stances back before any of us were. They say the evolved system is better.
> 
> So some people think they are being "traditional" by not following the Kukkiwon, but in fact, they are not following their big seniors, and that is not traditional at all.
> 
> ...


You say "Kukkiwon tkd is superior in every way". Geez thats a big call, not because I necessarilly agree or disagree but I cant believe anyone is self righteous enough to come to an open tkd board and make such a massive claim, that is based purely on your own opinion.Its actually laughable.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 20, 2011)

maybe we should get back to the bouncing


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 20, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> No, what he is doing is SPARRING by a a specific rule set which rewards kicking.  Something you're not thinking about:  other people spar too, albeit with other rules that likewise lead to the development of different strategies and tactics than what an Olympic TKD guy would employ.  Other people work hard too and they hit hard too.  The argument that an Olympic guy gets to face a lot of high caliber opposition seems intuitively true, but so does any martial artist that trains in a system that offers competitive opportunities - judo, BJJ, boxing/kickboxing, etc.  The point I make here is that it's dangerous and eroneous to generalize about other people's training, and it seems almost like some are setting up a classic false comparison with the 'elite' Olympic rules TKD guy vs. Joe Strip Mall Dojang who trains about 2 hours a week if he's lucky.  In that case it's no comparison at all and the difference isn't in training methodology at all - it's about training period.
> 
> I could likewise say it is extremely evident that you have not trained weapons to a high level.  Do you seriously think an unarmed kicker no matter how skilled is not at a crippling disadvantage to a competent bo wielder?  In the hands of someone competent, the staff is an extension of the person's center.  He will negate the distancing advantage even a great kicker has, and if you think a kick has devastating power, you haven't seen what a blow from a hardwood staff can do from someone who can create leverage from the deceptive angles a 6 feet weapon has.  And no, I don't believe a significant percentage of the Olympic TKD athletes out there have trained the staff or tonfa to a high level, much less every WTF guy as you assert.  I'm aware that weapons is not a part of KKW curriculum - it would be unlikely indeed that every 'WTF guy' absent a mandate from above would devote a significant commitment of resources towards something that isn't even recognized as an official part of TKD by either the KKW or the ITF.  Time is a finite resource after all.  I KNOW what it takes become expert with one, and you're underestimating what real accomplishment it is to become a kobudo expert.
> 
> As for myself since you are addressing me, there is nothing that makes me so hard to throw other than I have trained extensively in the close, grappling range and I can comfortably defend, strike, connect, and control within this distance.  Likewise, I have developed strong hand strikes over the years with hand conditioning and disciplined makiwara practice, but I suppose there's always someone better.  The difference is I'm fully aware there are arenas that I have not trained for where it would be foolish for me to talk about how I could clean up just by showing up.  I'm not sure others have the same perspective - they think being strong in one facet means the strength follows them around everywhere.



"You" was generic, sir, not addressing anyone in particular. 

Sparring, as those of us who train sport TKD at a high level know, is not a game. It is a fight just like a boxing match is a fight or a kickboxing match is a fight. It's easy to discount it, but it is a fight. People get good at fighting by fighting. Your point about kickboxing, jiu jitsu, Judo and boxing go back to exactly what I was talking about BTW-fighting as many different people as possible, even under a ruleset, builds good fighters.

I am not discounting non-sport TKD training, far from it. I had a traditional background myself. But I believe that a competition circuit and a unified ruleset breeds better combat athletes and therefore better fighters on the average. Compared to my pre-sport days, when I became a WTF TKDin I had an outcome to train for. I was in the dojang five days a week, eating right, running, all that stuff because I was getting ready to fight and I wanted to beat the guy across the ring from me. 

What you are doing that I don't agree with is discounting me/the other WTF competitors here as players rather than fighters, and it's simply not true. A good WTF fighter can stand and trade with anyone you put in front of him and it's a benefit of sport martial arts that a lot of people miss.

As far as weapons go, well, our provincial federation adds quite a bit  of stuff and I blur the lines occasionally as to what is actually  WTF/KKW curriculum and what is ours. So, you can chalk that up to my  mistake. For the record I don't like weapons training much, I think it's  largely a waste of time for what I want to achieve, but I have and do  train it. Even for self defense I don't see much use. I don't get to carry a staff or a tonfa or sais or nunchucks. Closest thing would be picking up a broom handle or something.

Funny how we get into these debates. I train in 2 sport-heavy systems and compete in both as well as teach and coach in one, and that isn't a coincidence.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 20, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> "You" was generic, sir, not addressing anyone in particular.
> 
> Sparring, as those of us who train sport TKD at a high level know, is not a game. It is a fight just like a boxing match is a fight or a kickboxing match is a fight. It's easy to discount it, but it is a fight. People get good at fighting by fighting. Your point about kickboxing, jiu jitsu, Judo and boxing go back to exactly what I was talking about BTW-fighting as many different people as possible, even under a ruleset, builds good fighters.
> 
> ...


I can see where you are coming from, but my personal belief is that the more you "mix up" your ruleset the better a fighter you will become. We sometimes spar using the WTf ruleset, sometimes we spar using 'punches only', sometimes kicks only, sometimes 2 or 3 on 1, sometimes a round where you must throw a certain amount of techs. We constantly mix it up which helps to keep us on our toes and teaches us to adapt. I have the highest respect for top elite tkd sportsmen, but I do believe the ruleset is far too restrictive. Little or no punching, no kicks below the belt, no punches to the face, no taking your opponent to the ground etc etc leads to a game of 2 guys roundhouse kicking each others hogus which will inevitably lead to people saying its not 'fighting'. I dont personally have a problem with this, these fighters are awsome BUT within a VERY restrictive rule set.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 21, 2011)

mastercole said:


> That is to bad that, as you say, many would not have sparred under that rule set, the greater experience you have, the more you learn. Over the past four decades, I have been fortunate to have trained in various Karate styles and types of Taekwondo/ tae kwon do / Taekwon-do. For me, it was good to have had that experience, and then open my eyes as you call it, and realize that Kukkiwon is the genuine article, when it comes to Taekwondo.  It was a natural progression.  I was also fortunate, later on, after started learning Kukkiwon Taekwondo, to get involved in the WTF side of things as well.
> 
> As for other types of tae kwon do / Taekwon-do, been there, done that. To me, they are archaic and backwards. I look forward to progress, as I always have.
> 
> By the way. the Kukkiwon, and WTF are very different things.


Im curious. You say you find tkd that is not KKW "archaic and backwards", and you speak of 'natural progression' leading to a better tkd i.e KKW. We could discuss this statement all day but I will stick to just one example because I can see you are very set in your ways and are not about to take other ideas onboard. Old school tkd or archaic tkd as you would put it, had a lot bigger emphasis on punching. Can you explain to me how placing less emphasis on punching to the point of almost never seeing it in WTF sparring is natural progression toward a better art. How can less punching be seen as a good progression? there are literally hundreds of other examples but I will just stick to this one as it is one area I feel strongly about. I have seen local KKw  clubs train and their kicking is amazing and they are stronly geared toward the WTf ruleset, but punching was almost non existent except for a couple of small, basic punching drills. How can this be a good progression? Considering almost every 'real' fight Ive ever seen had people both throwing punches and defending punches, how can the art evolving to a point of almost no punches be beneficial to the evolution of the art? Really, Im curious.


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## mastercole (Nov 21, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> You say "Kukkiwon tkd is superior in every way". Geez thats a big call, not because I necessarilly agree or disagree but I cant believe anyone is self righteous enough to come to an open tkd board and make such a massive claim, that is based purely on your own opinion.Its actually laughable.



It's my opinion, formed from my vast experience  I say it to anyone and everyone who ask.  I did not create Kukkiwon Taekwondo, I choose it, for exactly that reason.  You don't have to like my opinion.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 21, 2011)

mastercole said:


> It's my opinion, formed from my vast experience  I say it to anyone and everyone who ask.  I did not create Kukkiwon Taekwondo, I choose it, for exactly that reason.  You don't have to like my opinion.


I take your opinion onboard just as I do anyone else who offers me their opinion. I also take every opinion with a grain of salt. I have a friend who has done ITF tkd (among many other forms) for 20 years and he says it is the best by far. I train at an independent organisation and when I see the standard of our black belts I think our form is the best. You think KKw is the best. All valid opinions, but just that, opinions.


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## mastercole (Nov 21, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Im curious. You say you find tkd that is not KKW "archaic and backwards", and you speak of 'natural progression' leading to a better tkd i.e KKW. We could discuss this statement all day but I will stick to just one example because I can see you are very set in your ways and are not about to take other ideas onboard.



I guess I should have said more, just so you know my willingness to take on other ideas.

The only way I am set in, is the way of improving my knowledge and constantly learning. The very first direct exposure I had was in 1968 taking a few Judo lessons at the YMCA, but growing up in Little Italy, boxing was big, so in 1969 I started with that and added a whole arsenal of moves to my street skills, four or five years later I ended up in Isshin Ryu/Kubudo, and from there I was completely fascinated with Asian martial arts, since that time did a lot of things like Shotokan, Shito-Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Shuri Ryu, Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, ITF (Oh Do Kwan), fiddled around with Philippinno knife and stick fighting, some Shi-pal-ki and Hapkido, Laotian type of Muay Thai, Taekwondo JIDOKWAN. And if that is not enough to improve someone's idea of self defense, besides growing up in extreme violence,  I have also carried guns, and at times knives, mace, and whatever, most everyday of my life. I am not a fanatic, if you knew me, you would have no idea about any of this.

One year ago this month, after about 10 years of training, I went to Pusan, Korea and passed the Taekkyon Instructors Training Course via physical test, written test, and thesis, this all after a month of course preparation training, making me the first American in martial arts history to do so.  Just so you know I have always been open to "taking other ideas on board"



ralphmcpherson said:


> Old school tkd or archaic tkd as you would put it, had a lot bigger emphasis on punching.



Kukkiwon Taekwondo has a far greater amount of punching and hand skills in it's training curriculum than it does kicking, because Kukkiwon's curriculum is basically the same as it was when Kukkiwon adopted the curriculum from the old archaic KTA system developed by the nine (9) main Kwan  (Chung Do Kwan, Jidokwan, Song Moo Kwan, etc.). 

What you are probably confused about is that the Kukkiwon curriculum, while having all the curriculum from the old archaic Kwan system that unified to form the KTA, has basically 17 types of sparring methods, instead of 16 types found in the old archaic system. That 17th type of sparring, technically called Shiphap Kyorugi, or what you might call WTF Olympic sparring, might be what is confusing you.



ralphmcpherson said:


> Can you explain to me how placing less emphasis on punching to the point of almost never seeing it in WTF sparring is natural progression toward a better art. How can less punching be seen as a good progression? there are literally hundreds of other examples but I will just stick to this one as it is one area I feel strongly about.


 
I feel strongly about punching too. That is why most of my good fighters are excellent with their hands. Funny thing a few years back, this guy comes to the dojang and says he would spar with the other guys if he could punch to the face, I said OK and paired him with a great puncher (and kicker) but told him to just palm strike the guy. He checks, steps, side steps, and plam slaps the hell out of this guy. Slides back drops his hands, this guy is in shock, he takes a wild haymaker swing at my guy, my guy instantly counters with a spin back hook kick from hell and knocks this guy out cold as a cucumber. I was horrified, I though he might be dead. After we woke him up, and he came to, he did not realize he was knocked out and thought he had just been slapped a lot. Kind of funny back then, but also kind of stupid and dangerous.

Anyway, Shihap Kyorugi, or as you say WTF sparring, is a small, but very important piece of a many faceted Taekwondo and has improved every facet of Taekwondo, more so than any other training method.



ralphmcpherson said:


> I have seen local KKw  clubs train and their kicking is amazing and they are stronly geared toward the WTf ruleset, but punching was almost non existent except for a couple of small, basic punching drills. How can this be a good progression?



I have several dojangs, and all of my students spend a lot of time kicking too. We also cycle around where they spend a lot of time using their hands. It does seem like they do more kicking, lot's of time has to be spent on kicking. They are using a gross motor tool to create a refined technique, but they learn a lot that way and learn deeper, faster about power, time, distance, will power etc.  You can do 100 hand skill reps, and 100 kicking reps, and the time it takes to do the hand reps will fly by, the kicking will seem to take longer. The hand is a fine motor skill tool and can adapt more quickly, with less struggle than the leg, for most people.

WTF sparring has a specific technique, mental and spiritual purpose, and whether a coach understands that purpose, or not, can very well depend on how much his students will gain from it, or not.  So we really have to get down to business and find out what exactly are we supposed to gain from WTF Sparring, and then start searching for it.  If we don't know what we are searching for, we may never find it.



ralphmcpherson said:


> Considering almost every 'real' fight Ive ever seen had people both throwing punches and defending punches, how can the art evolving to a point of almost no punches be beneficial to the evolution of the art? Really, Im curious.



It gives us a special technical, mental and spiritual refinement that improves us not only as persons, but also aids in our self defense development. There is much more on this subject, to vast to post here, I could place some official documents on Flicker or something that you could read, if you truly are interested. But IMO to fully understand them, broken English translated into Korea and deep technical ideas, you would have to be training in it.

That said, IMO, no martial art, or martial arts instructor is qualified to completely teach a person about self defense.  The only way to actually learn that is to live it and survive it. Not an easy task, and I don't know anyone who would want to do that, or should.


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## mastercole (Nov 21, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I can see where you are coming from, but my personal belief is that the more you "mix up" your ruleset the better a fighter you will become. We sometimes spar using the WTf ruleset, sometimes we spar using 'punches only', sometimes kicks only, sometimes 2 or 3 on 1, sometimes a round where you must throw a certain amount of techs. We constantly mix it up which helps to keep us on our toes and teaches us to adapt. I have the highest respect for top elite tkd sportsmen, but I do believe the ruleset is far too restrictive. Little or no punching, no kicks below the belt, no punches to the face, no taking your opponent to the ground etc etc leads to a game of 2 guys roundhouse kicking each others hogus which will inevitably lead to people saying its not 'fighting'. I dont personally have a problem with this, these fighters are awsome BUT within a VERY restrictive rule set.



Ok, let's look at boxing. A martial art with excellent hand skills. 

Take Manny Pacquiao. He seriously trains, at the most elite level, with a very restrictive set of rules. I mean come on, even Mayweather is afraid to fight him 

Let's say either of us spar/fight him, and we pick the rule that you can punch anywhere we want, with no gloves on.

If Manny goes for the neck, lower back, groin and back of the head, do you think because he never trains that way, that he could not take us out that way?


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 21, 2011)

mastercole said:


> I guess I should have said more, just so you know my willingness to take on other ideas.
> 
> The only way I am set in, is the way of improving my knowledge and constantly learning. The very first direct exposure I had was in 1968 taking a few Judo lessons at the YMCA, but growing up in Little Italy, boxing was big, so in 1969 I started with that and added a whole arsenal of moves to my street skills, four or five years later I ended up in Isshin Ryu/Kubudo, and from there I was completely fascinated with Asian martial arts, since that time did a lot of things like Shotokan, Shito-Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Shuri Ryu, Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, ITF (Oh Do Kwan), fiddled around with Philippinno knife and stick fighting, some Shi-pal-ki and Hapkido, Laotian type of Muay Thai, Taekwondo JIDOKWAN. And if that is not enough to improve someone's idea of self defense, besides growing up in extreme violence,  I have also carried guns, and at times knives, mace, and whatever, most everyday of my life. I am not a fanatic, if you knew me, you would have no idea about any of this.
> 
> ...


It sounds to me that you are re-iterating the old saying about looking for a good instructor not necessarilly a good art. Im sure that KKw tkd taught by you would be of great benefit as it sounds as if you teach a very well rounded curriculum which encompasses many many techniques and your students would be great examples of what the KKW curriculum can achieve. Its a shame the KKW dont actually monitor what all their schools teach because I can tell you that from what Ive seen most KKw svhools are nowhere near as thorough as your school. I have met countless KKw black belts who literally cant throw a punch, they've never even been taught, they just kick and kick and kick some more. Which brings it all full cycle for me, its the school not the art. Its hard to say that KKW tkd is 'the best' of the tkds because someone may hear that, join a very average KKw club and be very let down. Ive seem some really good KKW guys, but Ive also seen very good ITF guys and independent guys. I cant really accept that one is better than the other, there are just way too many variables in my opinion.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 21, 2011)

mastercole said:


> Ok, let's look at boxing. A martial art with excellent hand skills.
> 
> Take Manny Pacquiao. He seriously trains, at the most elite level, with a very restrictive set of rules. I mean come on, even Mayweather is afraid to fight him
> 
> ...


I have no doubt he could. what worries me more than attack is defence. I have no doubt that a sport tkd guy can just as easily kick me below the belt and break my leg, their kicks are devastating, and even though he doesnt kick below the belt in sparring, Im sure he could adjust easily. What would worry me is how he would go 'defending' a kick below the belt as he never has to worry about that kick when he spars. Just as punching to the face, Im sure he could adjust his punching slightly and face punch me, BUT how would he go defending a punch to the face as his sparring revolves around not having to worry about that happening. What if someone ran in an rugby tackled him to the ground? again , he doesnt have to worry about that happening in the ruleset with which he spars. From my experience, attacking comes quite naturally, its defending that takes time to master and its even more difficult to master defending something that you never have to practice defending in real time against a resisting opponent. I suppose also, that Im  little biased when it comes to the manny paquiao analogy because I believe puching transfers better to a real life situation, so I believe a good boxer is probably more equiped for the 'street' than a good kicker. As my instructor always says "you can be the best kicker in the world but if you cant punch you're screwed".


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## andyjeffries (Nov 21, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> As for your sparring scenario, I'd be more than up for it. Staves, fine, I've trained with them. So has every other WTF guy. Same goes for Tonfa.



Sorry to disagree Ethan, but I'm a Kukki-Taekwondo/WTF guy who has never trained with staves or tonfa.  I did a bit of Hapkido/Hanmudo a while back and had a go with a sword, but that certainly wasn't during my Taekwondo training.

The Kukkiwon textbook also doesn't contain any weapons training.

I'm glad you've had that experience (and I would have enjoyed it if it was an option for me) but not every other WTF guy has this.


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## seasoned (Nov 21, 2011)

mastercole said:


> and you know it's bad for self defense because?


Because it is SPORT oriented. 
Are we beating a dead horse or what...........


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## Tez3 (Nov 21, 2011)

I have to smile a bit here, whenever I, on other threads, say well yes MMA people can do SD I get loads of people, including the TKD people, saying no, it's a sport they are used to having rules yet now being a sport means you can do SD!  Ah well all part of life's rich tapesty in the martial arts world, expecially the 'my style's the best' bit.


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 21, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I have to smile a bit here, whenever I, on other threads, say well yes MMA people can do SD I get loads of people, including the TKD people, saying no, it's a sport they are used to having rules yet now being a sport means you can do SD!  Ah well all part of life's rich tapesty in the martial arts world, expecially the 'my style's the best' bit.


To be fair Tez I have been consistently in agreement with you


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## dancingalone (Nov 21, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> "You" was generic, sir, not addressing anyone in particular.


You  will forgive me then for assuming otherwise when you quoted me as well  as answered directly my Swiftian modest sparring proposal.  No worries  though - I do not hold a grudge. 



ETinCYQX said:


> Sparring, as those of us who train sport TKD at a high level know, is  not a game. It is a fight just like a boxing match is a fight or a  kickboxing match is a fight. It's easy to discount it, but it is a  fight.



I really don't feel like rehashing this, so  I'll make this comment and I will let this point drop.  Sparring is not  fighting precisely because there are rules involved.  We cannot use all  the tools in our arsenal - we accept constraints in the name of safety -  we do all sorts of things which are suited for the ring but yet may be  imprudent outside of it.



ETinCYQX said:


> People get  good at fighting by fighting. Your point about kickboxing, jiu jitsu,  Judo and boxing go back to exactly what I was talking about BTW-fighting  as many different people as possible, even under a ruleset, builds good  fighters.



It builds good sparrers within the context  of the rules in which you compete.  Some qualities such as toughness  and athleticism trained through sport may have carryover to fighting.   Some of the technique drilled to a high degree may also carry over.  Yet  actually training for fighting (SD?) is really something else as there  is a universe of other considerations to make and then practice against or within. 



ETinCYQX said:


> I am not discounting non-sport TKD training, far from it. I had a  traditional background myself. But I believe that a competition circuit  and a unified ruleset breeds better combat athletes and therefore better  fighters on the average. Compared to my pre-sport days, when I became a  WTF TKDin I had an outcome to train for. I was in the dojang five days a  week, eating right, running, all that stuff because I was getting ready  to fight and I wanted to beat the guy across the ring from me.



You're really talking about training intensity and achieving peak physical conditioning which I agree is a good thing.



ETinCYQX said:


> What you are doing that I don't agree with is discounting me/the other  WTF competitors here as players rather than fighters, and it's simply  not true. A good WTF fighter can stand and trade with anyone you put in  front of him and it's a benefit of sport martial arts that a lot of  people miss.



Calling it a sport and its athletes players isn't meant  to be an insult in any way.  I in fact believe sparring, properly  focused, is an essential part of training for SD, so yes I acknowledge  the good parts of Olympic sparring include full power shots and training  to avoid attack.



ETinCYQX said:


> As far as weapons go, well, our provincial federation adds quite a bit   of stuff and I blur the lines occasionally as to what is actually   WTF/KKW curriculum and what is ours. So, you can chalk that up to my   mistake. For the record I don't like weapons training much, I think it's   largely a waste of time for what I want to achieve, but I have and do   train it. Even for self defense I don't see much use. I don't get to  carry a staff or a tonfa or sais or nunchucks. Closest thing would be  picking up a broom handle or something.



Some weapons training is more applicable to the modern  world than others.  Tonfa for example...  They map readily to the batons  law enforcement officers carry.  And training with weapons are like any  other drill- they can carry benefits that are not readily apparent such  as sensitivity or development of physical skills and ability.   Certainly it has not been a focus in the TKD world given the historical  connections TKD has.



ETinCYQX said:


> Funny how we get into these debates. I train in 2 sport-heavy systems  and compete in both as well as teach and coach in one, and that isn't a  coincidence.



OK.


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## dancingalone (Nov 21, 2011)

mastercole said:


> Ok, let's look at boxing. A martial art with excellent hand skills.
> 
> Take Manny Pacquiao. He seriously trains, at the most elite level, with a very restrictive set of rules. I mean come on, even Mayweather is afraid to fight him
> 
> ...



You're making the mistake again of trying to compare a world class athlete to presumably an average person to illustrate your point.  Take Pacquiao and match him against Jon Fitch in a MMA octagon.  Fitch is bigger, stronger, and he has trained extensively with MMA rules.  Guess who wins?  I imagine it is the person who trained specifically for the activity at hand.  Heck throw in someone else in Pacquiao's weight class rather than Fitch - I think the point still stands.


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## miguksaram (Nov 21, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:
			
		

> As for your sparring scenario, I'd be more than up for it. Staves, fine,  I've trained with them. So has every other WTF guy. Same goes for  Tonfa.


Ummmm...I would disagree with this.  Any weapon work that is taught in a KKW school is brought in by another art.  KKW curriculum deals in unarmed combat.  Weapons are not in that curriculum.


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## StudentCarl (Nov 21, 2011)

mastercole said:


> So we really have to get down to business and find out what exactly are we supposed to gain from WTF Sparring, and then start searching for it. If we don't know what we are searching for, we may never find it.



This is what we seem to be discussing, the larger context of which the 'bouncing' topic is one technical part. I'd like to see this as a separate discussion, though it seems to easily melt down into a comparison of organizations. I lack the longevity and documentation to add information about the development of the Olympic style kyorugi, but would love to read anything that seniors would share.


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## puunui (Nov 21, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> A Front Kick with the Front Leg
> Optionally, Lead Leg Front Kick. Either way is Correct.
> 
> (And I know You know what I meant. Im deliberately Misinterpreting You. Because theres about Five ways I could Read that )



I knew what technique you were talking about. That wasn't what my question was about.


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## puunui (Nov 21, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Could you let me know if you actually leave the ground or is your bouncing method the same as ATC described, where the bouncing is just a series of toe/ball of foot lifts?  I'm fairly convinced a bunch of the stuff we see on Youtube actually has the competitors executing mini-jumps, but I can accept that is wrong if that is the consensus given.



It depends on the circumstances and also the caliber of the competitors, but the general rule is that the higher you are off the ground, the slower your reaction time. I agree with what ATC says. For the beginner I think you have to jump visibly off the mat to get a rhythm going, and then later you can refine the movement. When discussing these types of concepts, or any concepts, I think it best to talk about what the best are doing, since this is the goal. It is easier to discuss conceptual things that way. So if you wanted to observe bouncing, I would look to video of the latest world championships and see what they are doing, as opposed to random youtube videos which may or may not reflect what is the ideal. I also agree with mastercole in that people tend to emphasize bouncing less in favor of more proactive agenda. In that past, people would bounce just to bounce, sort of like what Chuck Norris was doing in Return of the Dragon when he was getting beat by Bruce Lee. But taekwondo has evolved past that now.


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## puunui (Nov 21, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Yep.  I'd love the chance to spar with an Olympic style guy under my own arbitrary rule set.  Staves or tonfa allowed?  Or perhaps we start in a clinch first?  Heck we can even call it fighting if we want.




One thing you might want to take note of, and that is that many elite level competitors and coaches are not only involved in Olympic style competition under the WTF Competition Rules. Many also take boxing, do mma, gjj, bjj, hapkido, fma, etc. The thing to understand about competitors, especially champions, is that they don't care what the rules are, they fight under any circumstances, and often seek out opportunities to "fight" outside of the olympic competitor floor. Juan Moreno for example fights in local mma matches, and look what Herb Perez is doing at the administrative level. To them, fighting is fighting, whether on a taekwondo mat, a mma ring, or in a political ring. That is what you are facing, the bring it attitude, the never give up do what is necessary to prevail mentality, not just kicks from someone bouncing around with their arms dangling by their sides thinking about tapping you in the head for a valid point under the wtf rules.


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## dancingalone (Nov 21, 2011)

puunui said:


> One thing you might want to take note of, and that is that many elite level competitors and coaches are not only involved in Olympic style competition under the WTF Competition Rules.



I don't doubt it for a moment.  People who strive for excellence generally look for outlets in which to grow and prove themselves in.  I am sure however they recognize that different scenarios can require different solution sets and they work to develop those capabilities as needed.


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## puunui (Nov 21, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I don't doubt it for a moment.  People who strive for excellence generally look for outlets in which to grow and prove themselves in.  I am sure however they recognize that different scenarios can require different solution sets and they work to develop those capabilities as needed.




Right. People do different things under different circumstances. They way your interact here is probably different than the way you interact with your boss, or your parents, your wife or your children. I also think that comparisons about what someone would do against this or that practitioner under a different set of rules is non-productive. I think that if you and your students weren't getting something out of what you are doing, then you wouldn't be doing it. I think that those who practice kukki taekwondo in today's dojang are probably practicing for reasons different than self defense only, or even primarily. therefore comparisons about how they would fare under a self defense scenario has about as much merit as asking for a comparison of how a tai ch person would do in a WTF tournament. People train for different reasons. That seven year old yellow belt learning at the strip mall isn't focused on defending himself against a rapist in a dark alley using a broom stick. And that should be ok, just like it should be ok if someone wants to train wholly for self defense, because they live in a dangerous neighborhood or have a dangerous profession. The martial arts, especially taekwondo, is broad enough to allow everyone to find a niche and a reason for training.


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 21, 2011)

puunui said:


> One thing you might want to take note of, and that is that many elite level competitors and coaches are not only involved in Olympic style competition under the WTF Competition Rules. Many also take boxing, do mma, gjj, bjj, hapkido, fma, etc. The thing to understand about competitors, especially champions, is that they don't care what the rules are, they fight under any circumstances, and often seek out opportunities to "fight" outside of the olympic competitor floor. Juan Moreno for example fights in local mma matches, and look what Herb Perez is doing at the administrative level. To them, fighting is fighting, whether on a taekwondo mat, a mma ring, or in a political ring. That is what you are facing, the bring it attitude, the never give up do what is necessary to prevail mentality, not just kicks from someone bouncing around with their arms dangling by their sides thinking about tapping you in the head for a valid point under the wtf rules.



This is more or less what I've been trying to express


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## dancingalone (Nov 21, 2011)

puunui said:


> I also think that comparisons about what someone would do against this or that practitioner under a different set of rules is non-productive.



To be blunt, the comparisons started with the statement made about balls (courage?) and sparring with elite people who train for a specific activity.  It is a natural counter argument to point out that it works the other way too.



puunui said:


> I think that if you and your students weren't getting something out of  what you are doing, then you wouldn't be doing it. I think that those  who practice kukki taekwondo in today's dojang are probably practicing  for reasons different than self defense only, or even primarily.  therefore comparisons about how they would fare under a self defense  scenario has about as much merit as asking for a comparison of how a tai  ch person would do in a WTF tournament. People train for different  reasons. That seven year old yellow belt learning at the strip mall  isn't focused on defending himself against a rapist in a dark alley  using a broom stick. And that should be ok, just like it should be ok if  someone wants to train wholly for self defense, because they live in a  dangerous neighborhood or have a dangerous profession. The martial arts,  especially taekwondo, is broad enough to allow everyone to find a niche  and a reason for training.



This I can also agree with.  I have related many times that my niece and nephew train in a form of TKD where the lack of rigor and rampant commercialism is bothersome to me, but in the end if they enjoy it, it is their lives to live not mine.


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## puunui (Nov 21, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> To be blunt, the comparisons started with the statement made about balls (courage?) and sparring with elite people who train for a specific activity.  It is a natural counter argument to point out that it works the other way too.




Did the comparisons start with that? I'm not so sure. I will say this. I think that the overwhelming majority of kukki taekwondo practitioners don't care if what they do is, in the opinion of others, not valid for self defense purposes. I also think that the self defense oriented spend a lot of time putting down kukki taekwondo practitioners, their biggest point being their opinion that kukki taekwondoin cannot defend themselves in a self defense scenario, with their bouncing, their dangling arms, their lack of face punches.


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## dancingalone (Nov 21, 2011)

puunui said:


> Did the comparisons start with that? I'm not so sure.



It did for me.  Prior to that I was discussing bouncing and making the point that the sport side of KKW TKD looks very unlike traditional TKD to me.  I didn't make a value judgment one way or another as to the martial value of bouncing.  As subject matter experts such as you and ATC say that it is a key part of your sparring, I defer to your knowledge.



puunui said:


> I will say this. I think that the overwhelming  majority of kukki  taekwondo practitioners don't care if what they do is, in the opinion of  others, not valid for self defense purposes. I also think that the self  defense oriented spend a lot of time putting down kukki taekwondo  practitioners, their biggest point being their opinion that kukki  taekwondoin cannot defend themselves in a self defense scenario, with  their bouncing, their dangling arms, their lack of face punches.



There is some of that I concede.  However, there's also an undercurrent from more than one person here that KKW taekwondo-in kick the hardest, practice the best methodology, have the best certification, etc.


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## StudentCarl (Nov 21, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> However, there's also an undercurrent from more than one person here that KKW taekwondo-in kick the hardest, practice the best methodology, have the best certification, etc.



I understand what you're saying and how it can be a negative aspect, but I expect some of that in a diverse group like ours. The more someone is invested (knowledge and longevity) in a particular branch of our art, the more I hope they believe strongly in what they do...and sometimes it comes out 'loud and proud'. It's also interesting that every senior member I've been able to identify here consistently says that he/she continues to seek improvement without boundaries; they look for effective technique everywhere and work to improve it. I think that's very cool. The more I learn the more I'm coming to believe that "traditional Taekwondo" is not a snapshot of a moment in time but a commitment to refining and improving technique. Taking what little I know (all 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand) of the pioneers and my seniors, that's what they were about.

I bet most all of us will shamelessly test and find use for technical improvements. In the end it's not about the name, it's about what I can learn from you and make my own.  I do think Olympic style sparring has fueled a number of useful technical advances that are useful beyond scoring points in the ring. Studying Taekwondo for 2 years around 1980 and then returning 30 years later, I have two clear experiences to compare.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 21, 2011)

puunui said:


> I knew what technique you were talking about. That wasn't what my question was about.


Eh?
Then what WAS Your Question, because I didnt see any. 



puunui said:


> Say you come in with a "Front Leg Front Kick"?


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## puunui (Nov 22, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> However, there's also an undercurrent from more than one person here that KKW taekwondo-in kick the hardest, practice the best methodology, have the best certification, etc.




I'm sure everyone thinks that their way is the best way. It is not limited to what some kukki taekwondoin think.


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## puunui (Nov 22, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Eh? Then what WAS Your Question, because I didnt see any.



You quoted it.


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## puunui (Nov 22, 2011)

StudentCarl said:


> In the end it's not about the name, it's about what I can learn from you and make my own.




In the end, it's not about the name, it's about what you learn about yourself. To me, the martial arts, and for that matter, sport, is about self discovery. You learn who you are and what you are capable of.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 22, 2011)

puunui said:


> You quoted it.


Welp, all I can gather from that, is that Your Question was referring to that You knew what I was talking about, which is more of a Statement.
Ill just wait for an Elaboration 

Since technically Your Question was just what I said with "'s around a section


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## Gorilla (Nov 22, 2011)

puunui said:


> In the end, it's not about the name, it's about what you learn about yourself. To me, the martial arts, and for that matter, sport, is about self discovery. You learn who you are and what you are capable of.



very true...being true to yourself is a very hard thing to do...self awareness is a gift


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## mastercole (Nov 23, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Which brings it all full cycle for me, its the school not the art. Its hard to say that KKW tkd is 'the best' of the tkds because someone may hear that, join a very average KKw club and be very let down. Ive seem some really good KKW guys, but Ive also seen very good ITF guys and independent guys. I cant really accept that one is better than the other, there are just way too many variables in my opinion.



I always assume that people want to know the best path, the path that will offer them the most opportunities. That is why when someone ask me about Taekwondo, I point them in the direction of Kukkiwon Taekwondo. If I was a mediocre thinker, it would not matter, because if I thought they are going to be just mediocre, joining either one would be the same for them, residing there in mediocrity.

Because I have experience in both, the obvious limitation in the one, and I see no limit so far in the other. That is why I chose the other.

It seems there are some people here who do not have experience in both, but they appear to be posting opinions, and searching for opinions form others.  Careful what they ask for, there might be an experienced person who might give them an answer, and if they don't have the same experience, they might not like that answer and state the answer is rude, self righteous, arrogant or laughable because it insulted their lack of experience.

I state my comments because it certainly appeared that people here are searching for opinions.


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## mastercole (Nov 23, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I have no doubt he could. what worries me more than attack is defence. I have no doubt that a sport tkd guy can just as easily kick me below the belt and break my leg, their kicks are devastating, and even though he doesnt kick below the belt in sparring, Im sure he could adjust easily. What would worry me is how he would go 'defending' a kick below the belt as he never has to worry about that kick when he spars.



I you watch more WTF fights, at WTF sanctioned events you would know that WTF fighters get kicked below the belt all the time. The shin, the thigh, the hip, pelvis, back of the legs, the groin. It is not part of the legal striking area, so when it happens it's by total surprise, the strike is all out full force right into the groin or the legs. After years of sparring experience, WTF fighters learn to survive this by rolling with it, and countering it. Because they are agile and "bouncing' around, they are in a much better mode of operation to accomplish this.


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## mastercole (Nov 23, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Just as punching to the face, Im sure he could adjust his punching slightly and face punch me, BUT how would he go defending a punch to the face as his sparring revolves around not having to worry about that happening.


 
WTF fighters get punched in the fast, with the bare fist, all the time. It happens during training, and it happens in during sparring. Again, even thought it is against the rules, it is bound to happen both accidentally, and intentionally. Example, in 2009 at the Korea Open, where many of the most elite WTF Olympic team members and national team members compete, I was USA team leader, standing ringside watching Canada fight Iran. That match would determine who USA fought in the final match. During the fight, Canada punches Iran in the face, knocking him out cold. Iran was taken to the hospital, Canada was disqualified, USA won the gold.  That was one of dozens of face punching incidents that occurred at that event over several days.  Almost all fighters were able to successfully roll with the punches and continue to fight without serious injury. Why?  Because they experience it all the time, in their training, and in the ring, and they move well to be prepared to deflect and roll with such surprise attacks.

This is an example of never experiencing a training method and making guesses, like the one that WTF fighters never have to worry about getting kicked below the belt. But I guess that it is laughable and self righteous of me to point that out.



ralphmcpherson said:


> What if someone ran in an rugby tackled him to the ground? again , he doesnt have to worry about that happening in the ruleset with which he spars.



These scenarios can go anywhere. I hope you realize that the WTF fighters don't just stand there, they move all around, and in response to anything aggressive, and they can kick just as hard WHILE moving backward and sideways as in place and forward, are are extremely accurate in delivering knockout power. So what if the WTF fighter has good timing and when the rugby guy charges with his head down the WTF kicks his teeth out?  Again, these scenarios can go anywhere, the best thing is to get experience at it.



ralphmcpherson said:


> From my experience, attacking comes quite naturally, its defending that takes time to master and its even more difficult to master defending something that you never have to practice defending in real time against a resisting opponent.



Do you feel that someone who does not understand the training methods and evolution of learning needed to apply the intricacies of "entire body and head movement at point of impact of full contact strikes" somehow magically understands what it takes to master defensive movement? 



ralphmcpherson said:


> I suppose also, that Im  little biased when it comes to the manny paquiao analogy because I believe puching transfers better to a real life situation, so I believe a good boxer is probably more equiped for the 'street' than a good kicker. As my instructor always says "you can be the best kicker in the world but if you cant punch you're screwed".



I guess he would know that to be true, if he had defeated the best kicker in the world.  That being said, I think that the mass majority of persons will need to depend on their hands as a primary physical self defense tool in a real fight/self defense situation. And for most of the population, that hand weapon would be the palm, since even trained people tend to punch wrong with their bare hand.  All other hand an leg technique are most likely going to be secondary.

An elite fighter, of any type, is going to use what they do best, and that can be deadly for their opponent, whether it be a kick, punch, body slam, choke, etc.  Even guys who get into lots of street fights, they develop certain things that have worked well for them over the years, and some can get pretty good at it, and it's not defense oriented, these guys usually have the attitude "I can take it", because most of their opponents were not trained well and usually did not harm them to bad, so they never worry about rolling with the punches, so to speak, like an elite fighter would, so they never develop a real defense.  To them, a good offense is the best defense.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 23, 2011)

mastercole said:


> I always assume that people want to know the best path, the path that will offer them the most opportunities. That is why when someone ask me about Taekwondo, I point them in the direction of Kukkiwon Taekwondo. If I was a mediocre thinker, it would not matter, because if I thought they are going to be just mediocre, joining either one would be the same for them, residing there in mediocrity.
> 
> Because I have experience in both, the obvious limitation in the one, and I see no limit so far in the other. That is why I chose the other.
> 
> ...


I understand all that, but what about the very experienced guys who have done both kukkiwon and ITF tkd and say ITF is better? there are many people who say this. It is their opinion and they are entitled to it, just as you are entitled to your opinion. But as I said earlier, they are just opinions. Ive trained with both kukkiwon and ITF guys and I personally found the ITF guys to be far more well rounded martial artists, but Im not about to say one is better than the other because there are way too many variables.


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## mastercole (Nov 23, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I understand all that, but what about the very experienced guys who have done both kukkiwon and ITF tkd and say ITF is better? there are many people who say this.



Help me out here.

You trained intensely for a few years with the guys, for several hours everyday, working on sparring?  Or was this just casual encounters?

Two guys you knew? Or do you know the "many" that you quote? How experienced were they inside Kukkiwon Taekwondo? that is interesting because I have been all over the place for Taekwondo, and frankly, I have never met even one single person who was very experienced in Kukkiwon Taekwondo that suddenly embraced ITF, or other forms of so-called tae kwon do.  That would be very rare.  Just like I don't know of "many" major league baseball players that go "eh, I've had enough of this" quit, and sign up for an old 1899 style base ball league............

I am however aware of quite a few former ITF and "tae kwon do" members who joined into the Kukkiwon style, and I personally know several of ITF's EXTREMELY high ranking Grandmasters who left the ITF style and embraced the Kukkiwon style. I can list them, by name & fame if you like. I guess they felt the same way I did.



ralphmcpherson said:


> It is their opinion and they are entitled to it, just as you are entitled to your opinion. But as I said earlier, they are just opinions. Ive trained with both kukkiwon and ITF guys and I personally found the ITF guys to be far more well rounded martial artists, but Im not about to say one is better than the other because there are way too many variables.



Thanks for telling me I am entitled to my opinion, then I will share more of it.

When you search for training partners in any martial art, I recommend that people search out the elite, not the mediocre. Nothing wrong with mediocre folks, they are great, the salt of the earth in fact. However, you want to improve, so search for the best in what you do, then you will have an accurate picture of what you do, not a mediocre one.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 23, 2011)

mastercole said:


> Help me out here.
> 
> You trained intensely for a few years with the guys, for several hours everyday, working on sparring?  Or was this just casual encounters?
> 
> ...


The 2 specific examples I speak of are - a guy I know who has done tkd for 27 years, holds medium dan ranks in both kukkiwon and ITF tkd, he trained both simultaneously for years, he started in kukkiwon system initially and these days trains only in ITF. He is a close friend of my wife's and I catch up with him socially, when we disuss tkd he speaks highly of both systems but says in his opinion ITF is superior. The second example is the korean guy who lives across the road from me. He has trained both ITF and kukkiwon over a 20 year period and he also says ITF is the better system.The guys I said Ive trained with were just casual get togethers for a bit of training on the side, they were only 1st and 2nd dans. Just let me stress here that I have not posted this to try and prove one is better than the other. I am just pointing out the fact that many other experienced tkd practitioners have a different point of view to you. Again, it is just their 'opinion', it is not fact, just as your belief that the kukkiwon system is superior is also only opinion. My opinion is that no system is necessarilly better than the other. As Ive said, way too many variables to be able to say one is superior to the other, and to be honest I dont really care which is better as I dont train in either so it really doesnt affect my training either way .


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## Gorilla (Nov 25, 2011)

This is an elite WTF TKD fighter in a MUY TAI match.  He is a medium dan ran and has been ranked by the WTF in its top 20.  He won the 2010 US OPEN in the light weight division.


ITF or WTF doesnot matter it is the skill of the fighter not the system.


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## mastercole (Nov 25, 2011)

Gorilla said:


> This is an elite WTF TKD fighter in a MUY TAI match.  He is a medium dan ran and has been ranked by the WTF in its top 20.  He won the 2010 US OPEN in the light weight division.
> 
> 
> ITF or WTF doesnot matter it is the skill of the fighter not the system.




That certainly looks like Valdimir Sokolov from Nevada. We went to the 2009 Korea Open together. He is a well known USA WTF fighter, his coach is Master Blackburn. Vladimir is a very dedicated player, I hope that in the future we will see him medal at major WTF international events. For sure keep your eye on him. 

As for ITF and WTF does not matter, I think it does, but we will never know that until droves of ITF fighters decide to challenge WTF fighters on the world stage.  When that happens, I'll be ringside, video camera in hand.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 25, 2011)

mastercole said:


> That certainly looks like Valdimir Sokolov from Nevada. We went to the 2009 Korea Open together. He is a well known USA WTF fighter, his coach is Master Blackburn. Vladimir is a very dedicated player, I hope that in the future we will see him medal at major WTF international events. For sure keep your eye on him.
> 
> As for ITF and WTF does not matter, I think it does, but we will never know that until droves of ITF fighters decide to challenge WTF fighters on the world stage.  When that happens, I'll be ringside, video camera in hand.



under which ruleset?  Im no expert, but id imagine a wtf guy would win at olympic style sparring and the itf guy would win under his ruleset. It seems pretty obvious.


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## Gorilla (Nov 25, 2011)

mastercole said:


> That certainly looks like Valdimir Sokolov from Nevada. We went to the 2009 Korea Open together. He is a well known USA WTF fighter, his coach is Master Blackburn. Vladimir is a very dedicated player, I hope that in the future we will see him medal at major WTF international events. For sure keep your eye on him.
> 
> As for ITF and WTF does not matter, I think it does, but we will never know that until droves of ITF fighters decide to challenge WTF fighters on the world stage.  When that happens, I'll be ringside, video camera in hand.



Vlad is a great kid...We trained with him @ TDT for 3 years...He is focusing on kick boxing and MMA right now I would like to see him back in TKD...We trained with him about 1 month ago when the Morocan National Team was in Las Vegas..He is a great Martial Artisit


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## Balrog (Nov 26, 2011)

Buka said:


> It has become popular in the milieu in which it is used. As for anything else - a decent fighter will get the timing of a guy's bounce in less than three seconds. Then he'll hit him at the top of the bounce.


Gotta agree with this, which is why I think bouncing for the sake of bouncing is good for the calf muscles and little else.  It has to be combined with good footwork where you don't let your opponent get a decent read on you.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 26, 2011)

Balrog said:


> Gotta agree with this, which is why I think bouncing for the sake of bouncing is good for the calf muscles and little else. It has to be combined with good footwork where you don't let your opponent get a decent read on you.



Good for the Calf Muscles, Yes. But that doesnt mean You have to use it constantly to achieve that.

Just commenting. Dont mind Me.


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## puunui (Nov 26, 2011)

Buka said:


> It has become popular in the milieu in which it is used. As for anything else - a decent fighter will get the timing of a guy's bounce in less than three seconds. Then he'll hit him at the top of the bounce.



That assumes that you are standing within striking distance when the guy "bouncing" is at the top of his bounce. What makes you assume that, because you stand in reachable distance yourself in these types of situations?


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## RobBnTX (Nov 27, 2011)

Hey thanks everyone for responding to my original post in this thread!  It got way more traction than I thought it would, but know that I did find it very educational.

Rob


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## Cyriacus (Nov 27, 2011)

RobBnTX said:


> Hey thanks everyone for responding to my original post in this thread!  It got way more traction than I thought it would, but know that I did find it very educational.
> 
> Rob


Much can be Learnt, when People start bickering for 10 Pages, ultimately coming to Deep, Mea... Nope. Cant do it.
Until We Conclude Something.


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## sopraisso (Nov 28, 2011)

RobBnTX said:


> Hey thanks everyone for responding to my original post in this thread!  It got way more traction than I thought it would, but know that I did find it very educational.
> 
> Rob





Cyriacus said:


> Much can be Learnt, when People start bickering for 10 Pages, ultimately coming to Deep, Mea... Nope. Cant do it.
> Until We Conclude Something.



Hey!
Yes and nope!
I've already learned a lot from this thread, and I mean tons of knowledge!
Knowledge many times isn't something with only black and white parts, and I'm sure I've come to a much deeper understanding of the subjects discussed, as well as I got to know about other related subjects as well!
Sometimes I think I should make a digest about all that's discussed in posts like this. And I'm still going to do, in some cases!
Thank you, dear RobBnTX, coz your question helped me, too.
And thanks everyone for sharing their knowledge again!


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## dancingalone (Nov 28, 2011)

Hello, Carl.  Hope you had a good holiday.



StudentCarl said:


> I understand what you're saying and how it can be a negative aspect, but I expect some of that in a diverse group like ours. The more someone is invested (knowledge and longevity) in a particular branch of our art, the more I hope they believe strongly in what they do...and sometimes it comes out 'loud and proud'.



Perhaps.  I submit there is a difference between being an advocate of your own training methods and being negative of others.  We all know there are many different shapes and colors of TKD at this point.  I don't believe there is a single best TKD.  It depends on purpose, goals, and personal fit. 



StudentCarl said:


> It's also interesting that every senior member I've been able to identify here consistently says that he/she continues to seek improvement without boundaries; they look for effective technique everywhere and work to improve it. I think that's very cool. The more I learn the more I'm coming to believe that "traditional Taekwondo" is not a snapshot of a moment in time but a commitment to refining and improving technique. Taking what little I know (all 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand) of the pioneers and my seniors, that's what they were about.



Process improvement also appears in a variety of guises.  Some may look for it in a competition model.  Still others delve back into the Okinawan and Chinese roots to gain meaning and technical improvement.  It can come from a large top-down organizational approach or it can come through individual islands of dedicated practitioners striving to grow.  My point?  Again, there is not one way to do anything correctly.



StudentCarl said:


> I bet most all of us will shamelessly test and find use for technical improvements. In the end it's not about the name, it's about what I can learn from you and make my own.  I do think Olympic style sparring has fueled a number of useful technical advances that are useful beyond scoring points in the ring. Studying Taekwondo for 2 years around 1980 and then returning 30 years later, I have two clear experiences to compare.



I don't disagree with this.


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## StudentCarl (Nov 29, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Hello, Carl. Hope you had a good holiday.



Thanks for your kind wishes and thoughtful reply. I hope yours was good as well.



> Perhaps. I submit there is a difference between being an advocate of your own training methods and being negative of others. We all know there are many different shapes and colors of TKD at this point. I don't believe there is a single best TKD. It depends on purpose, goals, and personal fit.



I agree with you that there is not a single best TKD and for the same reason you mention. Regarding advocacy and negativity, I agree but am more tolerant of that because of this medium. 1) There's a big diversity of background and level of knowledge on this forum. We have very junior people who talk like they know more than they do (I'm in that group) and don't always mention the limits of their experience. We have what I believe are senior people who speak more forcefully than I would, but I can't separate what is personality from technically-based belief unless they explain, including what area of TKD they have great experience in. 2) Many express their ideas poorly or incompletely in writing, and discussions frequently get sidetracked chasing poorly worded comments, missing information, and/or personal jabs. 3) It's not obvious sometimes why people are here. I'm here in earnest as a junior with a lot to learn. While I think that's more common than not, I see too many posts that seem pretty flip...the range of courtesy here is as wide as that seen at some tournaments (unfortunately). I take it all with a grain (or 3) of salt, and try to sort out the useful. Maybe I'll get less tolerant with time, but for now I try to stick to the technical discussions and avoid the personality garbage.



> Process improvement also appears in a variety of guises. Some may look for it in a competition model. Still others delve back into the Okinawan and Chinese roots to gain meaning and technical improvement. It can come from a large top-down organizational approach or it can come through individual islands of dedicated practitioners striving to grow. My point? Again, there is not one way to do anything correctly.



I agree in general with your sentiment about there being many paths to improvement. I'm interested in all of them, so perhaps I ignore those who are more closed-minded. I think the whole "mine's better than yours" discussion is a waste of space. However, I think it's a stretch to say there's not one way to do anything correctly. There can be more and less effective depending on one's goals. Looking at this thread: I think there's been some good discussion of the definition and pros and cons of movement in TKD sparring, but some wasted time squabbling. There have been some pretty clear comments saying 'for this purpose it accomplishes that', and some technical description that would help the uneducated understand it better. That's the value of the discussion for me. 
Thanks again for taking the time to reply.
Carl


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## Steve (Nov 29, 2011)

Video?  What's this bouncing look like?


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## ATC (Nov 29, 2011)

Steve said:


> Video?  What's this bouncing look like?


The vid here is a good training vid with some good sport competitors. You will see them bounce before striking a target or person. The bounce is to show movement and hide intentions. A person that knows what the bounce is for and how to use will never get timed as some say and you do not lose power when bouncing as you never strike at the top of you bounce. Just watch the kids towards the end of the video and you will see some good fast strong techniques with bouncing. There is a kid in red cloths in the middle of the clip that is pretty good to.
[yt]y4dyhX0jVqU[/yt]


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## chrispillertkd (Nov 29, 2011)

ATC said:


> The vid here is a good training vid with some good sport competitors. You will see them bounce before striking a target or person. The bounce is to show movement and hide intentions. A person that knows what the bounce is for and how to use will never get timed as some say and you do not lose power when bouncing as you never strike at the top of you bounce. Just watch the kids towards the end of the video and you will see some good fast strong techniques with bouncing. There is a kid in red cloths in the middle of the clip that is pretty good to.
> [yt]y4dyhX0jVqU[/yt]




I tend to think that people on both sides of the debate make too much of things. I make use of bouncing at times when sparring but to say that people who know how to use it will never be timed or lose power is, in my opinion, making too much of things. It's like saying people who really know how to do a tollyo chugi will never miss. There are just too many variables. That being said, bouncing is a skill that can stand one in good stead during a sparring match. 

The video you linked to is excellent and shows some great skills. If people could just skip the rest of this thread and view that it would be great. 

Pax,

Chris


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## ATC (Nov 30, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> I tend to think that people on both sides of the debate make too much of things. I make use of bouncing at times when sparring but to say that people who know how to use it will never be timed or lose power is, in my opinion, making too much of things. It's like saying people who really know how to do a tollyo chugi will never miss. There are just too many variables. That being said, bouncing is a skill that can stand one in good stead during a sparring match.
> 
> The video you linked to is excellent and shows some great skills. If people could just skip the rest of this thread and view that it would be great.
> 
> ...


You are correct. I did not mean to make and absolute. I simply meant to say that those saying that they simply time those that bounce, as if they could time everyone who bounces, are being silly. Everyone gets hit, no matter what.

Now there are those that just bounce to be bouncing, and yes they most likely can be timed just about every time. But those that know what they are doing, will be much harder to time. But it is really not about them being timed but more of makine sure that you don't see what come when they attack or strike.

I teach the sport as well as the art, and I show the diiference between motion and no motion, and every time no motion competitors can be seen coming from a mile away. If you are not moving and then move to strike me, I can see that coming every time, and that makes it much easier for me to time them than it is for someone to time my motion.

But I agree with what you stated.


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## Tez3 (Nov 30, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> I tend to think that people on both sides of the debate make too much of things. I make use of bouncing at times when sparring but to say that people who know how to use it will never be timed or lose power is, in my opinion, making too much of things. It's like saying people who really know how to do a tollyo chugi will never miss. There are just too many variables. That being said, bouncing is a skill that can stand one in good stead during a sparring match.
> 
> The video you linked to is excellent and shows some great skills. *If people could just skip the rest of this thread and view that it would be great.*
> 
> ...




It made me feel old and tired! and my bones ached when they stretched! Ah to be young again, I started martial arts in my late thirties so have never had that youthful energy. Not my thing Olympic style sparring but nice video all the same.


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## Rumy73 (Dec 7, 2011)

Interesting. I like the school, which looks Russian or Eastern European, where they train with shoes.


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## Kinghercules (Dec 24, 2011)

Everybody wants to be like Mike. :ultracool

From my understandin.  Back in the days ppl didnt bounce around.  It was when Mike Warren went to Korea in '73 and swept through the competition.  From what Mike & Cheeks told when they went to a reunion ppl were comin up to them tellin them that they had recorded Mike & Cheeks when they were fightin and had  studed how they moved.


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## Gorilla (Mar 20, 2012)

Post 129 has a sport Tkd fighter in MT fight, tremendous KO.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 21, 2012)

Id forgotten how good a thread this was, it was interesting reading back through it.


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