# an interesting rant on SD Gjj vs Competition G/Bjj regarding teaching kids.



## TSDTexan (Jul 27, 2018)

Why sport breaks a martial art with safety rules sets.... and how schools drop SD curriculum to spend more time on preparing for competition.

An interesting take.... and could apply to other arts like TKD.


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## Danny T (Jul 27, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> Why sport breaks a martial art with safety rules sets.... and how schools drop SD curriculum to spend more time on preparing for competition.
> 
> An interesting take.... and could apply to other arts like TKD.


This is one of Rickson Gracie's major rants with a lot of BJJ today. BJJ was based, originally as a system for self defense and many today don't know or understand the self defense aspects. He even tells many BB's ok you are BB but if you don't know the self defense then you aren't really a BB.
And I agree this can be applied to many martial arts.


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## drop bear (Jul 27, 2018)

90% 10%

You can be aware of both aspects. I can't kick in boxing. I can't punch in jits.

But I am learning elements of fighting that will progress towards self defence.

And look I do MMA so there are a whole bunch of tools available to me that are not taught in BJJ.


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## TSDTexan (Jul 27, 2018)

Danny T said:


> This is one of Rickson Gracie's major rants with a lot of BJJ today. BJJ was based, originally as a system for self defense and many today don't know or understand the self defense aspects. He even tells many BB's ok you are BB but if you don't know the self defense then you aren't really a BB.
> And I agree this can be applied to many martial arts.



Yep... this professor in the video is a Hawaiian who trained under Rickson directly. And so did the head of their organization. Both are Rickson BBs. 
And they promote the SD of GJJ


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 28, 2018)

drop bear said:


> 90% 10%
> 
> You can be aware of both aspects. I can't kick in boxing. I can't punch in jits.
> 
> ...


It’s more in how you train than in the competition. You train with those concepts in mind, rather than molding your training to the competition. If someone (especially an entire school) trains to optimize for competition, you get the problems he’s talking about. I actually think having some competitors in a school is probably optimal.


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## pdg (Jul 28, 2018)

Is it _really_ a problem though?

If someone wants to compete, a competition focused school is going to be far better for them.

If someone wants to get some exercise and a bit of socialisation, maybe heavy competition or SD focus isn't going to suit them.

Not everyone goes in looking for ultimate self defence...

A bit of cooperation between schools and arts would be the ideal really - then the instructors could refer students back and forth and/or accepting more cross training.

Of course, that would also entail the instructors being capable of admitting they have a focus rather than the traditional "we do everything the best".


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> Is it _really_ a problem though?
> 
> If someone wants to compete, a competition focused school is going to be far better for them.
> 
> ...


My current ideal school is me and at least one other instructor - preferably one who teaches with a competition focus.


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## Buka (Jul 28, 2018)

I trained in a Rickson school. I only competed in a couple of jits tournaments. In both, I had absolutely no idea what the rules or scoring system was. Because we never trained for competition, never even mentioned them. 

I remember hearing there was going to be a BJJ tournament near us. I remember thinking, "they have tournaments for this kind of stuff? That's odd, but let's go!"

We only trained for self defense and the love of BJJ. I have no qualms about that, it was awesome. I also have no qualms about BJJ competitions and people who only train for them. That might be awesome too.


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## drop bear (Jul 28, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It’s more in how you train than in the competition. You train with those concepts in mind, rather than molding your training to the competition. If someone (especially an entire school) trains to optimize for competition, you get the problems he’s talking about. I actually think having some competitors in a school is probably optimal.



Yeah. You just add the extra 10%

I mean we do MMA and the grappling we do has a slightly different focus that let's us optimise things like standing up and throwing strikes. 

So even self defence BJJ is a slightly different game to what i would want to do. 

It is just about being aware.


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## JR 137 (Jul 28, 2018)

I wonder which one would get you beaten or killed quicker - “SD” BJJ or sport BJJ?

You’re going to get beaten or killed anyway, might as well go with whichever is quicker, right?

Sorry, I miss those threads now that they’re locked away forever.  I had so much to say, yet now I realize so little precious time.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 28, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I wonder which one would get you beaten or killed quicker - “SD” BJJ or sport BJJ?
> 
> You’re going to get beaten or killed anyway, might as well go with whichever is quicker, right?
> 
> Sorry, I miss those threads now that they’re locked away forever.  I had so much to say, yet now I realize so little precious time.


Which involves less running in a half-circle? That’s the one that’ll get you killed faster. The one with more style gets you beat up faster.


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## drop bear (Jul 28, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I wonder which one would get you beaten or killed quicker - “SD” BJJ or sport BJJ?
> 
> You’re going to get beaten or killed anyway, might as well go with whichever is quicker, right?
> 
> Sorry, I miss those threads now that they’re locked away forever.  I had so much to say, yet now I realize so little precious time.



The thing about BJJ It is really good for beating up one guy . But as soon as you go to ground the guys friends can then jump in and stomp on you.

But what people dont consider is that as soon as the guys friends appear. My friends can take all of his friends to the ground and beat them up.

I mean that is science.






So sport or self defence doesn't make that much difference.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2018)

drop bear said:


> The thing about BJJ It is really good for beating up one guy . But as soon as you go to ground the guys friends can then jump in and stomp on you.
> 
> But what people dont consider is that as soon as the guys friends appear. My friends can take all of his friends to the ground and beat them up.
> 
> ...


Somehow, that argument usually assumes the other guy always has friends, and the defender never does. Are martial artists that lonely?


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## pdg (Jul 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Somehow, that argument usually assumes the other guy always has friends, and the defender never does. Are martial artists that lonely?



You mean you're not???


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> You mean you're not???


(Laughter, instead of a reply, does not mean I'm lonely. Honestly. Doesn't mean anything. Stop reading too much into things.)


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## Headhunter (Jul 29, 2018)

M


JR 137 said:


> I wonder which one would get you beaten or killed quicker - “SD” BJJ or sport BJJ?
> 
> You’re going to get beaten or killed anyway, might as well go with whichever is quicker, right?
> 
> Sorry, I miss those threads now that they’re locked away forever.  I had so much to say, yet now I realize so little precious time.


dont worry I'm sure grandmaster will make multiple new threads on the subject lol


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## JR 137 (Jul 29, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> M
> 
> dont worry I'm sure grandmaster will make multiple new threads on the subject lol


He’s been getting shut down by big brother lately.  I’ll be sad to see his run end.  But when that happens, a new village idiot typically emerges shortly afterwards and makes everyone repeatedly face palm, so it’s all good.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 29, 2018)

I still like the view and maintaining self defence is its own thing.  If you wear the tag of SD, its totally diffrent and should be than a standard MA school.        Would love to have more people doing this teaching though.


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## Steve (Jul 29, 2018)

Having exhaustive experience with a limited skill set will always trump having limited experience with an exhaustive skill set.

In other words, the concern with sport is a blind spot when shifting application from one context to another,   The concern with “self defense” is a blind spot about application in any context.  I’ll take the former over the latter any day.


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## Headhunter (Jul 29, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> He’s been getting shut down by big brother lately.  I’ll be sad to see his run end.  But when that happens, a new village idiot typically emerges shortly afterwards and makes everyone repeatedly face palm, so it’s all good.


And another one of his threads bites the dust...wonder what we'll get next Bruce lees ilegitemate son or something


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## drop bear (Jul 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Somehow, that argument usually assumes the other guy always has friends, and the defender never does. Are martial artists that lonely?



Given the nature of what is trained in a self defence class. Awarness, deescalation. I would be surprised if some of these people had ever left the house.

Let alone have friends.

By the way I did deescalate the other day like a boss.


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## drop bear (Jul 29, 2018)

Steve said:


> Having exhaustive experience with a limited skill set will always trump having limited experience with an exhaustive skill set.
> 
> In other words, the concern with sport is a blind spot when shifting application from one context to another,   The concern with “self defense” is a blind spot about application in any context.  I’ll take the former over the latter any day.



Yeah. I have thrown this around a bit. You have to pick your applicable for self defence from a pool of techniques that actually work.

Do you guys have danoz direct?

Quality As Seen TV Products | Danoz Direct

That is basically the issue with self defence.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Given the nature of what is trained in a self defence class. Awarness, deescalation. I would be surprised if some of these people had ever left the house.
> 
> Let alone have friends.
> 
> By the way I did deescalate the other day like a boss.


There is some paranoia preached in self-defense marketing. Same for pro-gun groups. It bugs me.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> There is some paranoia preached in self-defense marketing. Same for pro-gun groups. It bugs me.



Makes sense though, stay skeptical of everyone and everything.


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## Steve (Jul 29, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. I have thrown this around a bit. You have to pick your applicable for self defence from a pool of techniques that actually work.
> 
> Do you guys have danoz direct?
> 
> ...


Kind of.  I mean, sure, starting with something that actually works is step one.  "Does this work for someone?"   Sure, it's a bar that some folks consistently fail to meet, but still that's a very low bar.  And yeah, lack of experience can make it easier to fall prey to snake oil.  It's hard to know what might and might not actually work without some experience.   Danoz Direct looks a lot like our "As Seen On TV" infomercials or the old RonCo products.

But what we see far more often around here is failure to distinguish between other people's experience and their own.  We had a guy delivering some professional training at work just last week.  He was an experienced trainer, teaching three different courses: a communications course, a project management course, and a course on managing virtual teams.  As great a trainer as he was, he had no practical experience in any of these areas, and it showed.  The course material was fine, but all he could really do was facilitate, adding no real substance beyond that.  He did okay with the first class, really had no business teaching the project management course, and faked his way through the virtual management course (but at least he had some experience being a member of a virtual team). 

I have no doubt that, should he teach these courses again, he will appear more credible.   He'll be more familiar with the content, and will have learned from the students in the class.  But he won't actually be more credible.   I hope that if these courses are delivered again, the company he works for finds trainers who are also bona fide subject matter experts, and doesn't fake it with the façade of credibility. 

All week, I just thought how much like some self defense training this was.


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## drop bear (Jul 29, 2018)

Steve said:


> Kind of.  I mean, sure, starting with something that actually works is step one.  "Does this work for someone?"   Sure, it's a bar that some folks consistently fail to meet, but still that's a very low bar.  And yeah, lack of experience can make it easier to fall prey to snake oil.  It's hard to know what might and might not actually work without some experience.   Danoz Direct looks a lot like our "As Seen On TV" infomercials or the old RonCo products.
> 
> But what we see far more often around here is failure to distinguish between other people's experience and their own.  We had a guy delivering some professional training at work just last week.  He was an experienced trainer, teaching three different courses: a communications course, a project management course, and a course on managing virtual teams.  As great a trainer as he was, he had no practical experience in any of these areas, and it showed.  The course material was fine, but all he could really do was facilitate, adding no real substance beyond that.  He did okay with the first class, really had no business teaching the project management course, and faked his way through the virtual management course (but at least he had some experience being a member of a virtual team).
> 
> ...



Yeah. I have had that issue here before. Specifically military systems and hip throws. Now hip throws are absolutely doable and have that sort of wonderful application where you can chunk a guy on their back, stay standing and be totally boss.

But you have like 6 to 8 weeks. A 6 to 8 week hip throw is basically letting the other guy strangle you to death.

So yeah when it has to work first. Works for that person.


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