# 90% of all guns used in Mexican crimes...



## Grenadier (Apr 2, 2009)

...do NOT come from the USA.  At least they don't, if the data aren't fudged.  

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/ele...-percent-guns-mexico-fraction-number-claimed/

Of course, some individuals are always happy to fudge things:



> 90 percent of the weapons used to commit crimes in Mexico come from the United States.
> 
> -- Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said it to reporters on a flight to Mexico City.
> 
> ...


 
The number is actually closer to 17 percent, not 90 percent.  The only way it comes out to 90 percent is if you limit the search to *traceable* guns.  Of course, most of the weapons seized aren't traceable.  

What's not surprising, though, is that the usual anti-gunners are trying to accuse US dealers of supplying arms to Mexican criminals, strutting forth all sorts of fully automatic weapons.  

The problem?  Simple.  Such full auto weapons do NOT come from FFL holders in the US.  Most of them came from Chinese smugglers, illegal dealers from Guatemala, etc.  

It simply amounts to more rubbish from the anti-gun folks.


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## CoryKS (Apr 2, 2009)

lol.  Must be using them American AK-47s that I hear so much about.  :rofl:


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## tellner (Apr 2, 2009)

...and American selective-fire FN-FALs...and M-16s bought from American gun shops...and civilian M-203s...

:barf:


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 2, 2009)

Since when does a politician let reality stand in their way to passing a law to further their own agendas?


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## CoryKS (Apr 2, 2009)

tellner said:


> ...and American selective-fire FN-FALs...and M-16s bought from American gun shops...and civilian M-203s...
> 
> :barf:


 
Yeah, I had my eye on the 203 for a while, but ended up buying a Wii instead.  Figured the family would have more fun with it, but my son remains unconvinced.


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## Empty Hands (Apr 2, 2009)

America is the largest arms dealer in the world.  Both for high end military hardware like tanks, and personal non-military arms.  That fact remains true regardless, and makes American political attempts to limit proliferation to various war zones completely hollow.


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## jim777 (Apr 2, 2009)

Grenadier said:


> The number is actually closer to 17 percent, not 90 percent.  The only way it comes out to 90 percent is if you limit the search to *traceable* guns.  Of course, most of the weapons seized aren't traceable.



I think this all needs to be bolded. What can be traced comes from the US 9 out of 10 times, and the rest we can't be sure. I'm guessing that someone more familiar with college level statistics could use that 17% of total to get you an assumed sample of the total amount. I find it impossible to believe that anywhere near 50% of the 'untraceables' are from somewhere other than the US, and my gut tells me that whether the remarks were based on science, fact, wishful thinking or laziness they aren't far from wrong at all.


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## Big Don (Apr 2, 2009)

Um, if large numbers of Mexican nationals entering the US doesn't cause crime then the same should be true of anything carried South over the border...


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Apr 5, 2009)

tellner said:


> ...and American selective-fire FN-FALs...and M-16s bought from American gun shops...and civilian M-203s...
> 
> :barf:


 

The FN-Fal is a Belgian made assault rifle.  Not only that, but the M-16 and FN-Fal are some of the most prolific firearms in the world.  I would be interested to know where you get your statistics that:

1.  These guns are imported into Mexico from the U.S.

2.  These guns, specifically the M-16 as you suggest, are from American gun shops, much less bought legally.

3. The usage of the M203 grenade launcher in the drug wars of Mexico.


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## tellner (Apr 5, 2009)

How shall I put it...

The people who are saying that 90% of the guns used et cetera et cetera are full of crap.

The US doesn't make FNs. M-203s are not readily available. There is always a few M-16s floating around, but not in those kind of quantities. Selective fire weapons of any sort are not that easy to find.

Americans aren't smuggling small arms to the Mexican drug cartels because the cartels can get them better, newer and wholesale from places like Korea, Romania and the Mexican Army.


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## searcher (Apr 5, 2009)

I guess I am not getting something.    Why do I care that Mexican criminals are using firearms that come from the US?      How does that exactly effect me?

I am not trying to sound heartless, but I just don't understand why I should care.   It would be one thing if it was here in the US, but another country?


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## crushing (Apr 5, 2009)

searcher said:


> I guess I am not getting something.    Why do I care that Mexican criminals are using firearms that come from the US?      How does that exactly effect me?
> 
> I am not trying to sound heartless, but I just don't understand why I should care.   It would be one thing if it was here in the US, but another country?



Pay close attention to the US politicians that are very interested in this an you will see a pattern emerge.  They likely don't really care about the crime in Mexico other than how they can use it to justify an imposition of yet another round of laws and restrictions on their citizens.


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## grydth (Apr 5, 2009)

searcher said:


> I guess I am not getting something.    Why do I care that Mexican criminals are using firearms that come from the US?      How does that exactly effect me?
> 
> I am not trying to sound heartless, but I just don't understand why I should care.   It would be one thing if it was here in the US, but another country?



Never minding the truth (and the truth has never deterred a Klinton yet), but this lie is simply a ploy to end gun shows in the USA and ban certain types of guns in the USA (not the actual guns the Mexican cartels use, but ones that sorta kinda look alike.... and that's always been enough for the gun grabbers).


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## Deaf Smith (Apr 5, 2009)

You mean I missed out on a good RPG at a Houston Gun Show?

And those grenades. I must of walked right past the dealer. Bummer, they work so good on hogs and fish.

Well, I'll keep a sharp eye out for some LAWS and a belt fed Ma Duce. Always wanted one to squirrle hunt with.

Deaf


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## searcher (Apr 5, 2009)

Yeah DS.    You missed out.    I picked up a barely used Bradley and some spare TOWs.     I was sad to not get a MK19, but maybe next time.


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## Big Don (Apr 5, 2009)

searcher said:


> Yeah DS.    You missed out.    I picked up a barely used Bradley and some spare TOWs.     I was sad to not get a MK19, but maybe next time.


Ooooh! I want a MK19


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## tellner (Apr 5, 2009)

grydth said:


> Never minding the truth (and the truth has never deterred a Klinton yet),



Yep. Hillary learned it as a Young Republican and working for GOP campaigns in her youth. Bill learned it to get ahead in Arkansas politics. I always knew the Clintons were the most conservative Democrats to reach high office.


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## Andy Moynihan (Apr 6, 2009)

tellner said:


> ...and American selective-fire FN-FALs...and M-16s bought from American gun shops...and civilian M-203s...
> 
> :barf:


 
But only the full-auto, select fire M203's...


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## CoryKS (Apr 6, 2009)

searcher said:


> Yeah DS. You missed out. I picked up a barely used Bradley and some spare TOWs. I was sad to not get a MK19, but maybe next time.


 
The MK19 is so choice.  If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up.


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## searcher (Apr 6, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> The MK19 is so choice. If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up.


 

Yep, nothing says get off of my lawn like 350rds/min of 40mm.


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## Tez3 (Apr 6, 2009)

I'm not that up on internal American politics so have to ask is there a particular reason Hillary Clinton would come up with this?


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## Big Don (Apr 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not that up on internal American politics so have to ask is there a particular reason Hillary Clinton would come up with this?


Besides the fact she doesn't particularly like the US? Certainly hates all us damn red-state people(Even those of us in blue-states) and as a dyed in the wool true believer type liberal has to support gun (BANS) control? No, no reason.


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## searcher (Apr 6, 2009)

Why you asking Tex3? Do you guys want her? I am more then willing to chip in for her a plane ticket if you guys do.


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## blindsage (Apr 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not that up on internal American politics so have to ask is there a particular reason Hillary Clinton would come up with this?


 
This is probably not the place to ask this if you're looking for an objective, measured response.  There's so much reactionary fear-mongering on both sides of the political spectrum in this country that most of what you'll get is demonizing and half-truths about how the 'liberals' or 'conservatives' hate America and are going to destroy us as a country.  The other side always lies, and their own side never does.  Good luck. :argue:   :duh:


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## Carol (Apr 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not that up on internal American politics so have to ask is there a particular reason Hillary Clinton would come up with this?



She didn't come up with it herself, this has been said for awhile.  However, it was something that she relayed on the plane to Mexico City.  As far as why she said it, I can only speculate.  Bill Clinton has generally found it very easy to relate to a wide variety of people.  Hillary Clinton hasn't shown that same ease.   That hasn't harmed her performance as a New York senator...but now she is in a very different position, and one that requires a lot of relating to people.  

To say what she said when meeting with Mexican diplomats sounded like a bit of a reach to me, as a way of showing she can relate to many of the issues facing the Mexican people.

One of those issues is violence.

Ciudad (City) Juarez  may be one of the most violent spots in the world right now.  Thousands are being killed, hundreds of women are going missing (due to kidnapping), LEOs are being slaughtered, and unfortunately corruption runs so rampant in Mexico that efforts to fight the trouble and shore up the border are falling apart.  Juarez is directly on the border of El Paso, Texas.  Juarez is also 2,000,000 people compared to El Paso's 600,000.  That's a lot of horror to be going on right in our back door, and there are no easily implementable answers to it.


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## tellner (Apr 6, 2009)

Wow Don, slanderous dishonesty in a tiny package. I'm impressed.

Tez, here's how it works...

Starting with Nixon's Southern Strategy in the 1968 election the Republicans switched from a governance electoral strategy to one based on "wedge issues". They decided that policy was a non-starter and began to focus exclusively on emotional identification to win over White working class men, particularly those from Southern and largely rural States. Part of this strategy involved the fetishizing of guns as the only real civil right. 

The Democrats, whose focus had been on urban centers where guns were seen less as magical totems for good and more as magical totems for evil immediately started selling Pepsi to the GOP's Coke. They started pushing stronger gun restrictions. The issue worked pretty well as a shorthand for whatever the other Party was doing for a bit over twenty years.

Then came the Clintons. By any objective standard they were a Republican nightmare. Bill Clinton was the reasonably popular governor of a Southern State. His economic policies were those of a moderate Republican, back when there was such a beast before lockstep total obedience became the only standard for Party Loyalty. The unions hated him for espousing Republican "free trade" policies. Years of publicly financed fishing expiditions couldn't find any fiscal impropriety. He was presiding over peace and a good economic expansion. And his social policies were half-hearted - "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and an abortive try at modest health care reform. Oh yes, his Surgeon General said that masturbation wasn't a terrible sin.

The only thing left was the politics of complete personal destruction. So the GOP pulled out all the stops with "The Arkansas Project" which speread rumors that he was a drug dealer, a serial rapist and a mass political murderer. I'm being absolutely literal here. Part of the demolition was unbridled and unrelenting attacks on his wife and tnen-tween daughter. Hillary Clinton became everything from a lesbian to a Communist, largely for the sin of being independent and trying to do something for eight years besides serve tea and cookies.

They also hammered the guns issues. The House leadership under former Congressman Tom Foley added a gun ban to the 1994 Crime Bill. It was the largest piece of political miscalculation in at least half a century and lost the Democrats control of both Houses of Congress. Hillary Clinton had been, by Democratic standards, a middle-of-the road proponent of stronge anti-gun laws. She became the anti-Christ because of her association with the Brady Campaign - which founded by the (lifelong Republican) wife of Ronald Reagan's Press Secretary after her husband was horribly and permanently crippled in an assassination attempt against then-President Reagan. 

In they eyes of the Republican Know Nothing (look up the term, it's instructive) base that clinched it. She hated America. She hated G-d. She hated children and puppies and flowers and was personally responsiible for the death of John Wayne. 

This continued on when Ms. Clinton became a Senator in her own right. It abated slightly when she ran for President. The Republicans hoped her supporters would vote for John McCain out of spite. Fortunately for the Democrats they voted their interests instead of the GOP's wet dreams. When Senator Clinton became Secretary of State the Right Wing Lie Machine revved up again with new allegations along with the same Big Lie that she was a Communist traitor.

I wish I were exaggerating. I'm not. This is all a matter of public record, and most of it is straight out of the RNC's daily talking points which Don faithfully parrots.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 6, 2009)

Thanks, *Tellner*. 

Altho' I am not so foolish to imagine that anyone can get a meaningful snapshot of another countries political turmoil from a short post on the Net, that was a good stab an 'condensed information' for those of us on the outside to mull upon.

Despite the constant propoganda we get in the threads here about the supposed 'Liberal Media' in the States, a lot of what we hear from that media is, to our ears, very Conservative indeed.

So to hear the 'other side' is quite refreshing. It's something we need more of here as (again despite the protests of the staunch Republicans) mostly what we 'outsiders' hear in threads at MT is praise for the departed government and damnation for the new.

I mean no disrespect for anyone when I say that a sense of rational balance is very important for a person to try and make sense of the world. If you don't have that then the inability to understand another persons point of view is crippling to your abilty to make sensible judgements.

"My party right or wrong" or "My country right or wrong" is all very well for the very young but adults, especially adults en masse in a supposed democracy, need to be able to grow beyond such absolutes.


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## Cryozombie (Apr 7, 2009)

Of course, Tellner, setting aside the "Right Wing Lie Machine" for a second...

It certainly didn't help "The Clintons" credibility that they stood up all in favor of banning certain Single Shot Shotguns that were "scary looking" and tried to manufacture the Lie that they were "Assault Rifles"

Lies to the Left, Lies to the right...

But all of you carry on Demonizing only one side depending on what you wanna believe. Meanwile we need to round up all those Evil Domestic Terrorists, you know who I mean... The Ron Paul Supporters.


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## searcher (Apr 7, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> But all of you carry on Demonizing only one side depending on what you wanna believe. Meanwile we need to round up all those Evil Domestic Terrorists, you know who I mean... The Ron Paul Supporters.


 



Oooh you did it now.    You said a bad name and I am telling on you.


Anybody up for a good old-fashioned witch hunt?:tank:


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## blindsage (Apr 7, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> Thanks, *Tellner*.
> 
> Altho' I am not so foolish to imagine that anyone can get a meaningful snapshot of another countries political turmoil from a short post on the Net, that was a good stab an 'condensed information' for those of us on the outside to mull upon.
> 
> ...


 
But you're from England, you guys are all Socialist or Communist or something, so your opinion doesn't count. :uhyeah:


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