# Don't sing it,  Bring it!!!! A challenge!



## kailat (Nov 1, 2008)

Okay so tonite be it all hallow's eve.. I have had a few to drink.. not drunk though.. or at least I don't think im drunk.. I've had a great evening.. all till the end of the night.. isn't that how it usually goes????

 Ok, so been to several bars.. the Witches Ball, a couple different establishement's halloween costume contest etc.. it was a great evening.. had the chance to listen to some great bands, and hang out drink some great beer.  My friends, my brother come down from out of town and we all just had a wonderful evening tonite.  UNTIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 Okay so, as we all walked back to our cars to part for the evening there was 2 guys who wanted to start talking crap to my group... They wanted to run off at the mouth.. start just throwing their hands up and saying crap that just really irritated me and done it QUICK!!!!!!!  I don't know what got into me, but i just wasn't in the mood for either of thier mouth's..

 So this dumb fool wanted to strip his shirt off as he started walking towards me.. I said " dude your crossing the line.. i wouldn't do it!""  I begged him to stop!!  He continued and got right in my face at which time he ended up on his *** and I honestly don't know how it even happend...LOL.. His buddy came up stripping his shirt off and "BAM" he was next to his buddy both picking themselves off the pavement.  My buddies, my girl and my brother all standing in all as I started tearing my costume off of me in seconds.. having my tactical folder on me, my K-BAR TDI blade in my back, and a cane that was part of my costume which included a sword hidden inside the cane itself.. HMMM I was like look guys.. " you are both in the wrong.. leave it alone and go home"  My girl started getting in my face and the other two guys.. Hmm imagine that.. a girl starting to get in between the ****!!  I was pissed at this time.. 

I think I was more so mad at her than the other two guys.. Both said it was on to me.. I said bring it.. and next thing I said was " u TWo need to recognize as i quickly clicked open my tac folding blade.. OOOPS!!! but at this time it was GAME ON!!  in my mind I was gonna cut both of them no matter what.. the two outnumbered me, and in my eyes it was deadly force issue..  When the blade came out the two quickly changed thier tunes and backed down.. i put the knife up and said " U need to recognize im not your punk *** white boy  take your attitude down the street to someone you can punk out.. cause im not that guy"....  The one guy quickly came to me as he was sorry and tried to hug me.. As I was not feeling that cause ididn't know him.. He quickly caught a right hook to the jaw I did not trust him..  Ipunched him straight in the face.. I told him " Im not your friend, your pal.. GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!"    Ithink he realized quickly I was not Messing w/ him anymore.. his buddy as comical as it was, went from bad *** to "big *****" real fast....  NOW I felt they started crap w/ me and my family and friends for NO reason.. I was not about to settle for thier half *** appologies.. they made me mad.. i was ready to kill both of them...  Does this make me BAD?  A killer or a WARRIOR????


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## terryl965 (Nov 1, 2008)

First off protecting yourself is good, but when you bring out weapons and you really want to kill someone that my friend is bad. As martial artist we owe it to ourself and our instructors to know not how to cross the line. I believe the alcohol had something to do with the extra attitude. I am glad no one ended up in jail and that you really did not cut someone.


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## KenpoTex (Nov 1, 2008)

for some reason, the "3-Stupids Rule" is running through my head...


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## elder999 (Nov 1, 2008)

kailat said:


> Okay so tonite be it all hallow's eve.. I have had a few to drink.. not drunk though.. or at least I don't think im drunk..


 

Don't know if you're drunk? Then guess what? _*You're drunk.*_




kailat said:


> Okay so, as we all walked back to our cars to part for the evening there was 2 guys who wanted to start talking crap to my group... They wanted to run off at the mouth.. start just throwing their hands up and saying crap that just really irritated me and done it QUICK!!!!!!!


 
_Empty vessels make the most noise_ Sounds like you had strength in numbers, anyway. Why not ignore them? 



kailat said:


> I don't know what got into me


 
"_a few beers...._"



kailat said:


> but i just wasn't in the mood for either of thier mouth's..


 
Let's see-you're having a good time, they want to ruin it, and you let them?



kailat said:


> So this dumb fool wanted to strip his shirt off as he started walking towards me.. I said " dude your crossing the line.. i wouldn't do it!"" I begged him to stop!! He continued and got right in my face at which time he ended up on his *** and *I honestly don't know how it even happend*...LOL..


 
_"a few beers"_



kailat said:


> His buddy came up stripping his shirt off and "BAM" he was next to his buddy both picking themselves off the pavement. My buddies, my girl and my brother all standing in all as I started tearing my costume off of me in seconds.. having my tactical folder on me, my K-BAR TDI blade in my back, and a cane that was part of my costume which included a sword hidden inside the cane itself.. HMMM


 
This is the point where, however justified you might have been before, _you should have kept on going_....(were you walking, or did you have a "designated driver?" since we've already established that you were drunk....)



kailat said:


> I was like look guys.. " you are both in the wrong.. leave it alone and go home" My girl started getting in my face and the other two guys.. Hmm imagine that.. a girl starting to get in between the ****!! I was pissed at this time..


....and should have just gone home.....



kailat said:


> I think I was more so mad at her than the other two guys.. Both said it was on to me.. I said bring it.. and next thing I said was " u TWo need to recognize as i quickly clicked open my tac folding blade.. OOOPS!!! but at this time it was GAME ON!! in my mind I was gonna cut both of them no matter what.. the two outnumbered me, and in my eyes it was deadly force issue.. When the blade came out the two quickly changed thier tunes and backed down.. i put the knife up and said " U need to recognize im not your punk *** white boy take your attitude down the street to someone you can punk out.. cause im not that guy".... The one guy quickly came to me as he was sorry and tried to hug me.. As I was not feeling that cause ididn't know him.. He quickly caught a right hook to the jaw I did not trust him.. Ipunched him straight in the face.. I told him " Im not your friend, your pal.. GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Ithink he realized quickly I was not Messing w/ him anymore.. his buddy as comical as it was, went from bad *** to "big *****" real fast....


 
That sounds suspiciously like the booze was talking for you. Either that or.....





kailat said:


> NOW I felt they started crap w/ me and my family and friends for NO reason.. I was not about to settle for thier half *** appologies.. they made me mad.. i was ready to kill both of them... Does this make me BAD? A killer or a WARRIOR????


 


This is why I prefer to do my drinking at home.....:lfao:


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## shesulsa (Nov 1, 2008)

You sound like a liquored-up fool ... but it's a good thing you can fight while intoxicated.

Get rid of the girl - in your face during a fight is an incredibly stupid place for her to be.  Either make sure she trains a little and gets some education or just say goodbye. You don't need that.

My advice? I have none.  Other than maybe don't go getting drunk; it can make you vulnerable.


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## Andy Moynihan (Nov 1, 2008)

Okay.

Ignoring for just a moment the 3 stupids rule ( don't go to stupid places, with stupid people, to do stupid things and you will find it nearly impossible to get into trouble).

A sacred commandment has been broken here.

You can EITHER:

*Go armed

OR

*consume alcohol.

*NOT BOTH.* You're damn lucky this didn't end up in court or you would have been FRIED on that stand.


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## kailat (Nov 1, 2008)

yeah, real quick here I am on the way out the door.. But as I woke up today I guess I was a little more intoxicated than I realized last night.. a few beers (4) really got me more drunk than I thought since im a light weight and havn't drank in almost a year..

 secondly, I was stupid what happend I vouge for that.. My brother who was the DD (designated driver) was already in the car, waiting as my gf/ my sister in law and I were walking to the car... We had went to\ethe "Witches Ball" downtown to listen to a buddies band play.  He's been trying to get us to go out and hear them for awhile.. but since i don't get out much anymore.. I thought last night would be fun..

  Guess, what happened was my costume sparked this guy off as he was looking for a fight.  He had got kicked out of a downtown establishment for being drunk and started a fight w/ somene who had a costume on simular to mine, and he thought I was him.. he approached me running his mouth and I didn't know why at first.. my initial reaction was to defend myself and the girls..  HEY Im an officer of the law but was playing patron and civilian last night.. was not in the moood to play drunk police officer or respected martial art teacher..   at that point in time there was 2 grown men ready to fight me and my thoughts were AUTOMATICALLY DEFENSIVE..   Once we engaged that was it... I was not his buddy right or wrong, no matter if he confused me w/ someone at that point.. 

 It goes to prove u go out looking for trouble u may find it w/ someone that isn't going to play bythe rules....   I was in my opinion out numbered and by having a law enforcement  mentality when two men approach me to fight, imma get an equalizer. i didn't have my side arm but i had my trusty ol' tac folder..  and YES I would and will use it if the situation presents itself..    Im am very happy that it didn't go that way and all in all I realize that im sitting at home on FRI nights from now on, unless Im working the streets..   Hind site is 20/20 to many of us.. its easy to say what yu would of done, or how stupid it is to engage in fighting..  
 TRUTH is,  im not afraid to fight.. its not what i want or look for.. but the thought of it, really does not bother me.. its who i am..

 I train, teach, survival.. as a police officer and as a martial artist..  survival means I live to fight another day...  outnumbered by the law is considered the use of deadly force by way of the force continum.  

 So tooo all those  who may read this outsde of the realm.. If u fight someone and outnumber them and they use a weapon to equalize the situation they are in the rght by the court of law... so just FYI  what I actally done would of been justified...   walking away from that situation last night was not an option as they approached us and came from accross the street at us rather quickly and w/ conviction.  there was no one else around us and my brother would not of done anything..he's scared of his own shadow so myself and my girl pretty much were the only ones w/ balls to stand up to these idiots...


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## Andy Moynihan (Nov 1, 2008)

kailat said:


> yeah, real quick here I am on the way out the door.. But as I woke up today I guess I was a little more intoxicated than I realized last night.. a few beers (4) really got me more drunk than I thought since im a light weight and havn't drank in almost a year..
> 
> secondly, I was stupid what happend I vouge for that.. My brother who was the DD (designated driver) was already in the car, waiting as my gf/ my sister in law and I were walking to the car... We had went to\ethe "Witches Ball" downtown to listen to a buddies band play. He's been trying to get us to go out and hear them for awhile.. but since i don't get out much anymore.. I thought last night would be fun..
> 
> ...


 
Being outnumbered isn't what they would've fried you on, it was that fatal combination of armed and drunk that you wouldn't have been able to turn around.

But based on your later post it seems you realize that now.


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## terryl965 (Nov 1, 2008)

I can certainly appreciate your service as a lawman but remember the ageesor with a weapon that may or may not had to use it will be looked down upon by a court of law. Being drunk and letting words sparks you off is not very sensitive to a jury. They would look at this as you was also looking since you was so willing to fight. Until a punch or something comes at you they are just words, I was not there and do not know the manner they approached but we as Martial artist have a certain level of being able to control someone that is very much being an ***. I am so glad nothing really came from it.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 1, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> You sound like a liquored-up fool ... but it's a good thing you can fight while intoxicated.
> 
> Get rid of the girl - in your face during a fight is an incredibly stupid place for her to be. Either make sure she trains a little and gets some education or just say goodbye. You don't need that.
> 
> My advice? I have none. Other than maybe don't go getting drunk; it can make you vulnerable.


 
I do not wish to comment on the rest of the situation as described.

I am glad Shesulsa made this comment. I agree. 

I have dropped women who do not understand that in a situation where violence in emminent or already upon us if I tell her to go someplace and be safe she had better be there or at least try and then tell me why she cannot. The reason I say this as I have been outnumbered and in places where assaults occur. I have told one GF to stay put as it was behind me and they had to get through me to get to her. we could not leave until I had cleared a path. She tried to come around and flank them. No training. No understanding of the situation. Grew up in a nice bedroom community so did not understand real violence. I then got hurt trying to get her back behind me and to keep her safe. It was the last date for us as she could not understand why it upset me for her not listening. Her arguement was that she was trying to protect me. If she had some experience or training firearms or knife or stick or emptyhands then I might have understood it. But at that time in my life she did not understand the level of violence available and I had move on. I had one GF before that where she did something similar but I was not hurt. I continued to date her but she did not get it no matter what happened. 

I do not date women that like to see me Fight on the street or ask if I can beat so and so up. Coming to watch me spar is cool. That is a controlled situation so I respect her interest and promote it. I do not date women who do not understand that I have real life experiences that gives me knowledge on how best to survive a situation. (* Clear a path and get away is usaully the one I have found that works the best - others lead to legal issues that I also found to be expensive. *) They the women, I would date have to understand that I worked alone and with teams and know movements and intent and can read a situation. If it si first time surprise event a discussion afterwards to explain why I asked what I did and why it needs to be heard. I also wonder why they thought they could help. I understand caring, but the safest thing they can do it get to safety. Get teh car running and door open so I can jump in and take off. Lots of things to help me just not always physical in the middle of the violence. 

Now for the Caveats and PC comments:
This is not sexism, it is my experience. I do not expect women to ahve the experience I have. I do not expect them to go toe to toe with a guy who out weighs them by 100 lbs. I understand some women have been trained. Some women have lived in violent situations and understand it. I just do not expect it to be the norm. There is a difference.


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## trainable (Nov 1, 2008)

Tough situation to be in when you have been drinking.  Pre-emptive strikes may well be excused in court given the circumstance.

Intent of carrying the knife may fry you in court.  Why on earth would you go DRINKING carrying two knives???    A DA will fry you on judgement issues.  You could have lost your job, much better than losing your life.

Im a law enforcement officer as well, and I coach self defense/defensive tactics, and I have a hard time with the "normal individual" response that jurors will be asked to use to weigh their verdict.  As I have seen many times before, being an LEO will not cover you when you are out drinking as a civilian and you throw a punch.  They(the jury) may even hold you to a higher standard because you are an LEO/MA instructor.   In my county here in Florida I would imagine the DA we have would try to charge you with aggravated assault for the knife in the mix with alcohol, and that conviction carries mandatory 3 year sentencing.  Its a huge gamble, but the situation dictates appropriateness.  I personally would not want a jury mulling over my judgement decisions I made while intoxicated.

Alcohol and weapons dont mix.  Just my .02 because I have seen the case go the wrong way in similar situations.  I am not pointing fingers, because I have stepped in the dogpile a few times myself, but I have seen decisions like that end a mans career, and make him a convicted felon.  Even with the badge....


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## kailat (Nov 1, 2008)

Well, I have alot to say here w/o tryingto post a book!  Let me see if I can clear some things up here.  I've had a little a bit of time for alot of this to sink in today.  To be honest this thing is haunting me and it really keeps replaying in my mind over and over.  Should I have done this, or should I have done that?  Truth what I done is what I done no turning back or changing the situation.

 OK I have to make this statement be it so some may be offended so strap on your offense proof vest and gear up for this because dear people be it you are martial artist who are active on here, or just lurker who read and never post on this forum (this is mostly directed to u individuals, not the MA themselves)...   BEWARE WHO U RUN UP ON IN THE STREETS TRYING TO BE  A TOUGH GUY BECAUSE U JUST MAY FIND SOMEONE WHO IS TOUGHER AND IS NOT AFFRAID OF YOUR ERROGANCE!  ok w/ that said moving along here...

 Last night's ordeal was and is a prime example of what would be considered "SELF DEFENSE"...  henceforth why it went under the SD section of this forum.
At no time was my reactions or my decisions I made premeditated at the instance of the altercation.. My reactions were INSTINCT for SURVIVING an attack...  IT IS WHAT WE TRAIN FOR!   If you do not train martial arts for self defense then why train at all?  

NOW, I may suffer a little from PTSD (post tramadic stress syndrome)from the gulf war and from working in job related fields where I have to deal w/ guys like these two *** holes last night...I worked several years as a jail officer and as a police officer u build into your interior design your make-up if you will as someone who normally does not take "CRAP" from people.

 One thing I personally refuse to do until we become a police state and we are ran in communism and as long as Im allowed to come and go freely I refuse to be a slavery to society and sit at home because I fear the streets at night and can't go out for a night on the town w/ friends and family.  If that is how u wish to live then more power to you!!! That wont be me.  

See these guys were out looking for trouble, and your right when alcohol is involved in anything your gonna have conflict..  I live in a collage town and drinking and bars is pretty much alot of what their is to do in this town... im not a prude and im not so old that i have to sit at home all the time.  Hell I work 50+hrs a week, and when im ready to unwind and go have a beer thats exactly what i'll do... 

 Let me see, while walking w/ your loved ones accross a parking lot and some idiots come out of nowhere directing towards you actions of assault w/ threats etc... Im sorry but runnning away, and turning my back from was not an option.  I done exactly as I was taught to do.   Stare the threat down and I gave him several verbal commands to back off, and that I was not who he thought I was..He invaded my personal space still w/ conviction on fighting at which time I accompanied him w/ his request.

 This was not a street fight, this was not a bar fight, this was a mere self defense situation.  I did not know these guys from day 1...pure random and that is what makes this "self - defense"...   I spoke to a few of my buddies on this, some officers and some are not.  But in all I was told I acted appropriatly and done nothing wrong and done exactly as I was trained to do.  (perhaps I should of not used the knife as a visual to de-esculate the matter) But it did and it worked as I intended it too.

If u think for a second two grown men could not kill or do physical damage or bodily harm to one guy (regaurdless of his skill level, personal or public position held ie.  police officer, martial arts instructor etc...)  u are sadly mistaken.. I've seen guys w/ thier faces beaten in, skulls crushed, stabbed to death or worse..  So as it is said better to be JUDGED BY 12 RATHER THAN CARRIED BY 6....  

these guys probably go around every weeknd starting crap w/ people all the time and probaby gets scared cowards who are too afraid to stand up to them... WELL Last night went bad for them..shows that if u stand up to evil u will prevail or die.. but u cannot fear death.. "Yeah though I walk thru the valley of the shadows of death, I will fear no evil!!!  

 I hope that for those of u if ever put in my situation would of acted simular and protected your loved ones... it is our duty as men to do so..

 These situations is what seperates TRUE MARTIAL ARTIST who train for these situations over those armchair internet jockeys who thrives on telling others how they would of reacted and telling them how wrong they are for doing what they believe is right!...  AND HAS NEVER BEEN IN A FIGHT OR ACTUAL SD SITUATION and would not know how to handle it.

thats what these forums are for.. truth and helping teach not filling up wasted space w/ useless information..

And finally, as for the girl friend  yeah.. when she gets home from work today were gonna have a sit down and discuss this and explain that her getting into the middle was wrong.   again hindsite is usually 20/20 and we can all live and learn today from yesterday's happenings for tomorrows bringings..

 have a wonderful weekend

Cory


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 1, 2008)

kailat said:


> Well, I have alot to say here w/o tryingto post a book! Let me see if I can clear some things up here. I've had a little a bit of time for alot of this to sink in today. To be honest this thing is haunting me and it really keeps replaying in my mind over and over. Should I have done this, or should I have done that? Truth what I done is what I done no turning back or changing the situation.
> 
> OK I have to make this statement be it so some may be offended so strap on your offense proof vest and gear up for this because dear people be it you are martial artist who are active on here, or just lurker who read and never post on this forum (this is mostly directed to u individuals, not the MA themselves)... BEWARE WHO U RUN UP ON IN THE STREETS TRYING TO BE A TOUGH GUY BECAUSE U JUST MAY FIND SOMEONE WHO IS TOUGHER AND IS NOT AFFRAID OF YOUR ERROGANCE! ok w/ that said moving along here...
> 
> ...


 

Cory,

I  am concerned. You seem defensive. This means you might have more to think about. I do not know as I am not you. So excuse the presumption, just talking to you like I talk to my Military friends and also LEO's who have seen real violence as well. 

I agree that you never know what you are going to run into on the street. you never know if they are better or better armed. I have run across those that had numbers weapons and better pockets or dads with pockets to provide lawyers. I say this as you stated it was self defense and as a first responder or front line person you might get a chance to make this call for others, but when it is yourself it is other people who get to make this call. You might get the benefit as a LEO, but some ADA's do not care and some are looking to make a name for themselves. Yes Politics can effect your overall chances on if you are charged. 

I agree that we should be allowed to defend ourselves. I agree we should not be afraid to leave our homes. 

I am different from you, and different experiences. But evertime I have had a knife in my pocket I have not had a chance to get it out. And the times I have had to be able to pull it the threat was not immediate, for what is the threat of just two or three guys just talking. I am speaking from the ADA point of view or the detective point of view. These qustions were asked of me. I remember being questioned a lot. I never got used to it as it was never the same. I never learned to like it or go with it or play with it. It sucked every time. So, devil's advocate question, what is the threat? So they took their shirt off. Maybe they were just hot? Why did you strike them first? You know this makes you the agressor. (* NOTE: I did strike first as some times when they are hitting themselves to dump adrenaline it is the right time to hit them and stop them. But to the ADA and ectectives you have now become the agressor. Or at least that is what evert LEO and Lawyer I have discussed this with has told me. *) So now you are the agressor, right? And you pull a weapon and up the level of your threat. I am confused by your statement that you thought there was danger, when you already had knocked them down each once. DId you not already have the situation in control? 

(* End ADA - Dectective questions *)

I say this from my experience. Logic and level of threat, i.e. volume of their comments, body posture, and possible weapons of theirs that are not found, all contribute, but you can still be in trouble. 

As to 20/20 qnd Tuesday Morning QB'ing the event, I was not there. But I have done things verbally that has reduced the level of threat many times.

i.e. "hey do you have insurance? I do. Mine is great, no deductable. I hope yours is good as well, because you will be in the hospital for a long time." - This slowed them down as they wondered if the "FUN" was going to be worth the payment. They ended up leaving. Now, they did attack some other people on the way out, but I defended myself verbally without going in for questioning. As many of the LEO's have told me it is not my place to potect others, even if I see it in process. 

"Hey you had better becareful or I will stand up and you will punch me and I will fall down and break your ankle when I hit the ground. You would not liek that." The drunks usually do not get this, but their semi drunk friends or more sober friends get this. 

So, I wish you the best in trying to figure out why this is bothering you. 

Good Luck


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## kailat (Nov 1, 2008)

After last night, I have to question why do we carry blades?  Self Defense Purposes, Industrial reasons, because its cool and makes us feel superior?

 Well, today after an incident last night I have to re ask myself WHY DO I CARRY A BLADE?  less than 24 hrs ago I would answer this question "For Self Defense"... But when that moment comes can u, will u use it?  Can u live w/ yourself the next day?  Would you think to yourself there are several other things you could use instead of a knife or knives to defend yourself?  What if its all you have?  

 I'll tell u what, right now!  TODAY!  Im not sure I will carry a blade on my person again in public.  Because I had almost used mine in a self defense situation and I realized it was too convenient to go for it w/out thought.  Pure instinct to pull it out and use it w/out really thinking of the outcome..  I think in many cases there are far more reasons why not to carry a knife than why to carry one... It's like the old saying goes.  U pull out a weapon you had better be prepared to use it and take on all responsibilities for your actions..  I realize today that our govt wants us to live in a constant state of fear and to be slaves to our society.  

We are being primmed as slaves where self defense is not an option.  Slavery to our society where the thugs, and criminals will over run our streets and where the common citizen is in fear of going downtown, or going to an establishment for enjoyment without fear of becoming a victim of our society and the bad guys.. so its easier for us to sit at home hoping we will be safe.. but once u step outside and are outside you are at the weakness of your government and the very laws that were made to protect you and in one intance u are the victim and the law sees you as the problem...

 For so long I have seen the law from one side... From the eyes of the govt.  How they wanted me to see it.. It is not until you yourself are put in a position and realize rather quickly that the laws that are meant to protect u in fact are against you.


 In a law enforcement world, we are taught to instinctivly draw our side arm "service gun" when a threat arises.  I think, in truth in a state of panic you react to what you know.  And since from a perspective of if I were on duty and outnumbered like such I'd of used one of my improvised weapons ie.  Baton, OC, or even firearm.  In a civilian aspect carryng a folding knife when a heighten sense of threat is arose you draw on your own instinct.   I think in truth that is why the knife came out..  

 I'm the first to admit I was wrong in that regaurd.  But as i spoke if i had not defused the situation the way i did.. i may not of beeen here to talk about this today...


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## kaizasosei (Nov 1, 2008)

Sounds like you scared the crap out of those poor bastards...

good thing that you weren't too drunk to fight, but i think you might have overreacted a wee bit.  
Sometimes that is a good strategy and it definately sounds like it worked but i think you should be more careful considering that one of the multiple attackers sometimes has backup arms...
that is why the only thing that really shocked me is that you pulled a blade on them when you were already in control.  That would most likely have provoked them to escalate had they been armed.  
The way you described yourself, it sounds that either your goons were really puny, or you were acting really comical.  May have been funny, but situations such as what you describe can turn ugly.  I would never pull i blade unless it was a last resort.  And the strategy of showing and threatening with a blade does seem a little goonish if you ask me.  

i respect you for being able to defend yourself, but i don't think you should have had as much fun as you had.  Even if you were safe and 'won the fight'-

There are many ways to control people without killing them.  Things are not so black and white.  Chances are your attackers were NOT ready to kill you.  I just hope for your sake that you are able to be as enthusiastic when those who are ready and prepared to kill you make a move.

j


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## kailat (Nov 1, 2008)

Rich, 

 I think this is bothering me mainly because I did know better to act the way I did.  

 I'll be honest carrying aknife has been a part of my attire no matter if on duty, or off duty my knives go w/me everywere everday.  Has for years since I was a child I've always carried pocket knives.  I never actually thoght id ever have to use one.   YES, there was a level of threat that was brought on to me.   The guy actually took his shirt off as a display of intimidation towards me, sorry I don't intimidate easily!  His cursing at me and bodly mistaken me for someone else as I told him repeatedly I was not who he was looking for.  He invaded my personal space by getting in my face, spraying his spit on my face which i can still taste and smelll his awful drunk breath as if it was happening now.. knda makes my stomach upset now... but i think that was what provoked me to react and knock him on his buttocks.  HIs buddy then starting his crap off to my side where my gf was initially between him and I.  I may have yes made first contact but that was because bad breath man was in my face pushing my buttons while I then saw his sidekick starting to come toward me.. it was then just a natural instinctive motion to draw from my hip as I saw the guy BBG getting off the ground coming back up for who knows what! And his buddy advancing toward me and w/ my gf in the middle to get hurt by him.. the knife was used to defuse and act as an instrument to show them to STOP because it was apparent my verbal directives were not making a difference.  

 It was then that the 2nd guy stopped and said ok. then at that moment situation B) was difused.. knife was immedietly put away sitution A) w/ BBG come up to me to HUGME as if it was all good he realized he had made a mistake..  ok, for one u don't go from threatening someone to wanting tohug them. a complete strnger.  SORRRY  not in my book.. so yes,  I reacted again.. wrongly??  Maybe by jaw checking him w/ a right hook I did not want to be his buddy and I didn't want to validate his actions at that moment by giving him a second to glorify his actions for the crap he had just put me thru.. 
so yeah im a little defensive. 1) because im upset it happend in the first place..  2) because i am second guessing myself and im questioning everything I believe in is now WRONG!  I don't know if i was wrong or not.. YES in the eyes of Mans laws it was not right. but to me I think it's just anther scape goat at how government turns against us as free nation..

It's done,  it's over lesson learned from all parties included!  I have a new outlook on self defense and realize how u can go from victim to the one in question in a matter of events..   It's a double edged sword.. your cut either way you go...  defend yourself go to jail, don't defend yourself get hurt and possibly die..  

 its a lose lose situation


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## kailat (Nov 1, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> Sounds like you scared the crap out of those poor bastards...
> 
> good thing that you weren't too drunk to fight, but i think you might have overreacted a wee bit.
> Sometimes that is a good strategy and it definately sounds like it worked but i think you should be more careful considering that one of the multiple attackers sometimes has backup arms...
> ...


 

  yeah, well my actions were not at all comical or was I laughing and dancing around.. In fact I was a bit outraged (that was part of my problem) I have a NO TOLERENCE for ignorance mentality.   These people like these guys really jerked my chain quickly and I was not going to allow them to bad mouth me and my gf for no reason..

 let's  see his exact words were as he was approaching me " There you are you son of a "B" u think u can get me kicked out of the bar and Im not gonna do anything. I told u i was gonna F you up!" at this tiime I looked at him and said  ' HEY BRO, not the guy I am not who u think I am" ,  he continued w/ something like " F you u punk MF'er I'll beat your head in"  at this time his shirt comes off and he threw it on the ground, I then was heated. all this happend in like mere seconds now mind u.  I stated" u are crossing the line and you are about to make a big mistake i warn u to stop."  THEN he was in my face just screaming.. i said something, but i remember i told him to back off and we were going home and somewhere i was an officer and i think i pushed him or done some take down,truthfully i don't even know how he fell..thats the weird thng. i have no idea how i put him there.. but i gained about 4 to 5 feet away as his buddy started at me..and u know the rest of the story..  so no i was not happy and i didn't want to fight either of them let alone hurt them or kill them. having control of the fight was not my thought process at that moment.. i saw 3 shades of red at that time..  I still am furious today about this.. i wish i knew who those guys where as I'd like to know. but its probably best I don't.  

as i said, its done..it's over. i just wanted to post the whole thing as a training tool to show how things go from 0-60 and good nght to bad night in seconds.. and use my example as a bad judgment call when situaion like this happens if ever happen to anyone on here.


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## jks9199 (Nov 1, 2008)

kailat said:


> as i said, its done..it's over. i just wanted to post the whole thing as a training tool to show how things go from 0-60 and good nght to bad night in seconds.. and use my example as a bad judgment call when situaion like this happens if ever happen to anyone on here.



You've got a great point there.  Dynamic situations develop just that way -- dynamically.  Things heat up fast, and the specifics change in an instant.  It's important to understand and realize that.

But I'm going to draw another lesson from it...

If you (plural, not specific) choose to carry ANY weapon, you need to accept all the responsibility related to that.  Which may mean making sure that your judgment isn't impaired.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 1, 2008)

kailat said:


> Rich,
> 
> I think this is bothering me mainly because I did know better to act the way I did.
> 
> ...



Cory,

It is  a loose loose situation. I carry a knife on me when I can. At work they do not allow knives (* Safety - even as tools must use the box cutting razor tools instead which I have one at my desk at work *). And yes the first time I thought I had killed someone with my actions, I second guessed what I did and why. I second guessed everything and I hesitated. This is actually the phase of my life where I got hurt the most. I cannot say how it will effect you or how to react, but from my experience you need to review what you did and then move forward with what you decide is best. But do not review it every time a situation happens. Yes live through it and then review it afterwards for places to improve. This will hopefully limit the injuries you might take. 

I wish you the best in your reviewing and decisions making. 

Thanks


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## Brian King (Nov 1, 2008)

Cory
Thanks for posting your after action report and for doing so as honestly as you did. There are many lessons to be learned from any conflict that we engage in. It is important sir to review our actions, our justifications and the actions of those around us (not just those directly involved in the conflict but even those observing it) and I congratulate and thank you for doing just that, it is not easy to do especially publicly so that others may also learn from the lessons. It is important when reviewing to not only focus on the negatives but to at all time realize that you are still alive and writing. You can do everything right and still end up dead but in this case you came home. It is also human nature to focus on the negatives and forget the positives. We and others see what we did wrong or could have done differently and beat ourselves up (for perhaps the second time if we lost the conflict) over and over often forgetting or ignoring what we did right. What we did correctly also needs to be reinforced and is just as important as trying to learn from what we could have done better. 

Sometimes God whispers and sometimes He yells. This conflict happened for a reason and lessons needed to be learned. You have learned, those two woofers maybe learned a lesson or two and hopefully your lady also learned a lesson. Everyone made it home with just a little worse for ware and a little blood letting even though violence happened. Violence is always just around the corner, being aware of this, and how we and those dear to us might react to it is valuable to understand even as the price of that understanding can be very costly. 

I would not be too hard on your girlfriend and do not recommend dumping or getting rid of her over her reactions/actions. A good woman is hard to come by but while she does not have to become Xena warrior queen she will have to come to an understanding with you and what she can do to help you, before, during and after conflict. A few examples of what I am referring to. While I was a bouncer I dated a young lady that was a professional singer. One of the things I really enjoyed about her was that she was very outgoing and personable while I can go two or three days without feeling the need for conversation. She is able to talk to anybody and often did. This was uncomfortable for me at first until we came to an understanding. We came up with a system of code words and touch signals (the strength of the grip told us the urgency and importance of our silent communication). We had words for me to tell her I am tired, shut down the conversation so that we can leave- I am ready to go home now, we had a word and touch in which I was actually asking her if she had this situation under control and had different reply signals for her to answer which included yup I have this under control thanks for asking honey, yup I have this under control but stay here next to me and another for yes, but it is a little scary so if you want feel free to step in but be nice, and the Glad that you are here my caveman, please step in and deal with this as you see fit. We even had a signal that she could give me that said that she thought she can handle the situation and for me to reign in and we used this a couple of times as she was a good talker and could defuse a situation when I was more likely to do my talking with my fists or whatever.We also had both code words and touch signals that brokered no argument or questioning. One signaled we are leaving say your goodbyes, another was we are leaving right now rudeness be danged. One signal we worked out was that her reply to the signal was that she would nicely ask for my car keys understanding that her job was to have the keys ready and if/when action started she did not get involved but went and started the car and got ready to leave. I would join her right after resolution or escape. We also did some scenario work, not so she would become a great fighter (although she did have some talent and toughness) but so she would know what to expect from me and how I moved and fought and she could practice helping by moving to safety before during and after the conflict, realizing that we need to be able to communicate (both verbally and using eyes and body language) before during and after the conflict and that it was both of our jobs to give and receive communication. We both learned how the other reacted and how we could best work as a team doing what was best for the other. We both had strengths that we learned to trust and rely on and recognized that the other had strengths as well and that with practice we could trust each others strengths and value both the strengths and weaknesses. 

Your mileage will vary but your lady now knows better what you are capable of and to her credit she did not run, scream or faint. Not everyone no matter their level of martial experience can say the same of their reaction to violence. 

Training to fight while protecting others is a very high level of work and not easy but if in a relationship it is of course in my opinion worth it, and if not in a relationship it is still worth it and interesting as it forces you to work in a different manner than you might be used to working. It is interesting that many police officers have a hard time doing this as their natural predilection is to close with the bad guy and control the situation. When protecting others this is often not the correct course of action. 

Thanks again for the honest AAR
Warmest Regards
Brian King


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## marlon (Nov 1, 2008)

kailat said:


> Okay so tonite be it all hallow's eve.. I have had a few to drink.. not drunk though.. or at least I don't think im drunk.. I've had a great evening.. all till the end of the night.. isn't that how it usually goes????
> 
> Ok, so been to several bars.. the Witches Ball, a couple different establishement's halloween costume contest etc.. it was a great evening.. had the chance to listen to some great bands, and hang out drink some great beer. My friends, my brother come down from out of town and we all just had a wonderful evening tonite. UNTIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


 

stupid mistake.  you were lucky.  Important that as a 'chief instructor' teach your students not to be stupid and make sure your instructors do the same.

Respectfully,
marlon


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## kailat (Nov 1, 2008)

: ) well Marlon, I don't expect you to see thing in my eyes.  Sure, the situation may of not been the wisest chosen strategy.. BUT I survived and went home.  This is exactly what I and those who train w/ me train for.. it is our sole purpose of training..we don't train for fun of it we train to stay sharp and to survive and not be victims.. 

 As the "chief inst" does not mean I am the messiah, and or I am those who train w/ me, thier honored supreme grand master... this just means I have more experience be it in the real world or martial arts than they do.  they see me more so as a mentor and I help offer ways to counter or defend against certain attacks that they may or may not already know.  When we leave and part ways we all walk seperate paths.. they go their way and I go mine.. we are all in charge of our own destiny once we seperate from training.. When we get together we get together and spar and train to take the edge and stress off from the work week and family. It is our time to take out aggression on one another so we don't have to take that aggression built up anxiety out on someone else.. it is a great stress reliever.. I've gotten calls from my guys and they've said " u know what?  I've had a bad day for whatever reason and I just really need to let out some aggression can we meet up put on the gloves and head gear and go at it for a while?"  I am there for them for that.. this is why I am thier head instructor..  I am their friend, first and foremost.. we don't have a classical or formal training class.  we are all created equal in our training.. we don't wear belts, uniforms.. we curse and we tell stories and go out for abeer after training sometimes.. It is our own brotherhood.. Thats what KKG is.. It is not a mc Dojo, or a traditional school..  there is no money exchanged for training.... we gather to better ourselves and to help one another w/ problems and learn from one another about combat.. . I look up to my guys as they do me.. I value their decisions on situations like what happend last night.. In fact we discussed this today in training.. and in all, it was well recieved.. in fact the only slack im catching is here but thats ok.. I really don't matter and it really don't matter.. i put this out there to help others either chose to or chose not to act the same way I did... Im only human I do make mistakes..

 BUT MY TRAINING Teaches us to no matter what survive at all cost.. if it was just a one on one situation.. i can guarantee w/ out a doubt I would of just probably stuffed the guy as I did and moved on.. but in the instance I was outnumbered and didn't know what their intentions were together.. Im going home.. sorry if that does not jive w/ your ways or philosophies.. thats what differs from traditional way of thinking to the non-traditonal... if it isn't what you would do.. then fine.. continue running kata.. to me we train for these exact instances... as it was always taught to me.. there are no rules in the street..  GUESS WHAT GUYS.. we were in the streets, not the dojo... 

 I went into defense mode and played devils advocate.. I am here to tell the story today because of my actions.. Im a survivor.. if I was not here to talk about it, well then I would of made the wrong decision.. 

  take this message for what its worth.. and you can have your own conclusion about how I handled it.. I honestly put this on here for that very reason.. I don't mind getting chastised thats what this is for.. its a public forum.. regaurdless if I don't like what some of u say.. or think I put it out there so I have to take the good w/ the bad.. Im not on here to say Im the greatest martial artist out there and i want every follower in the world to come to me.. that is not how I work.. i could care less... i don't do martial arts to gain profit or run and operate a successful school.. if I done that and wanted to become an american IDOL then sure i'd be more proactive.. my mentality is somewhat the like the Neal Boortz (a liberal radio host) of the martial arts world.. I tell it how it is.. and if u don't like my stance on it.. then so be it.. I won't lose sleep on it... I promise nor should u.. 

 Thank you and have a good night.  I need to go to bed.. gotta work in the morning.. ; )


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## jarrod (Nov 2, 2008)

there have been some really good posts made, i just want to add one point (no pun intended).  as an armed, drunk martial arts instructor who also happens to be a combat veteran & an off-duty LEO...a prosecutor would not have a hard time making you look really, really bad in court.  a tac folder is one thing, but when you take a sword cane with you to party it's going to be really hard to convice a jury that you are an innocent victim.

jf


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## Archangel M (Nov 2, 2008)

If I were the attorney, Id like to print out this guys posts......

Im split on the which was the worse "bad decision" here. The whole issue of being intox, not just walking away etc. OR the decision to post the enitre event, THAT NIGHT, on the internet.

I was told by a wise man that there are 4 things that can end a cops career. Women, booze, women and booze. I havent been to a bar in years, the only ones I would go to now are the quiet corner ones with few people and a dartboad. A place to talk with some friends and play some darts.


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## trainable (Nov 2, 2008)

This is food for thought for all of us.  For just one minute if we park our egos, step back, and consider the context of this thread, we can see the lessons learned here.

My concern is for a fellow LEO losing his livelihood, his freedom, or worse, his life.  Just because someone is an LEO, or a MA instructor does not mean they cannot fall victim from time to time to the fight between them and the system.  Sometimes our preparation for violence must take into consideration that final fight.  The courtroom.  If we knowingly head into a place of nuisance with weapons on our person, engage in alcoholic consumption, then end up in a scuffle where that weapon makes an appearance, we did not pay enough attention to our preparation.

No one should have to "stay home" or change their way of life because of street thugs.  However, if we go knowingly to where violence occurs, we must make a choice.  Weapon or booze.  It isnt whether this is right or wrong, its what will be the hangmans tool against us in the courtroom.  

Cory obviously voiced his concern and deescalation intent to the first guy, and preemtively struck when he felt there was no chance of defusing.  Running is out with friends and family, so now he is committed.  When the second badguy engages, and the first guy is still down, it is still a fair fight.  That guy goes down, too bad.  When their intent is not changed and they get up, its 2 on 1, it stops being a self defense situation, and begins to be a survival situation.  For a sober man with one knife, this would probably be a no brainer in court.  Where the rub is here is the combination of multiple weapons, alcohol, and environment.  I have seen this in court more times than I can recall.  The DA will hammer into the jury that the combination of those things made it mutual combat and poor judgement.  He only needs poor judgement to hang you.

I would not stop carrying a knife, I just would not drink with a weapon on me.  Ever.  Rules change when you take a drink.

The fact that we are talking about it here is a win, because nobody got cut, and Cory didnt get arrested.  I venture to say that faced with the same situation that I would hope that the adrenaline did not overthrow my multiple assailant training, and if I had to switch to survival mode that I did have righteousness on my side for the court fight.


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## kaizasosei (Nov 2, 2008)

Hey Kailat!  Did not mean to say that you were acting silly or anything.  It sounds to me that your actions were quite justified.  
You know, many of us are warriors or at least aspire to be brave in situations such as your recent ordeal.  I do respect you greatly as a fighter for having defended yourself so promtly.  But being in a place with likeminded people has its plus side because you CAN share your stories with us.  On the other side, you can expect that many of us also share the same stregths as well as struggles and issues, so it's not easy hiding anything-if there's anything worth hiding...  

Probably, the one of the greatest worries i had reading your post was that you could get in trouble for having all those weapons on you....whatever though.  All's well that ends well, right?
I'm proud to have such an asskicker of a partner on mt! 

peace

j


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## marlon (Nov 2, 2008)

kailat said:


> : ) well Marlon, I don't expect you to see thing in my eyes. Sure, the situation may of not been the wisest chosen strategy.. BUT I survived and went home. This is exactly what I and those who train w/ me train for.. it is our sole purpose of training..we don't train for fun of it we train to stay sharp and to survive and not be victims..
> 
> As the "chief inst" does not mean I am the messiah, and or I am those who train w/ me, thier honored supreme grand master... this just means I have more experience be it in the real world or martial arts than they do. they see me more so as a mentor and I help offer ways to counter or defend against certain attacks that they may or may not already know. When we leave and part ways we all walk seperate paths.. they go their way and I go mine.. we are all in charge of our own destiny once we seperate from training.. When we get together we get together and spar and train to take the edge and stress off from the work week and family. It is our time to take out aggression on one another so we don't have to take that aggression built up anxiety out on someone else.. it is a great stress reliever.. I've gotten calls from my guys and they've said " u know what? I've had a bad day for whatever reason and I just really need to let out some aggression can we meet up put on the gloves and head gear and go at it for a while?" I am there for them for that.. this is why I am thier head instructor.. I am their friend, first and foremost.. we don't have a classical or formal training class. we are all created equal in our training.. we don't wear belts, uniforms.. we curse and we tell stories and go out for abeer after training sometimes.. It is our own brotherhood.. Thats what KKG is.. It is not a mc Dojo, or a traditional school.. there is no money exchanged for training.... we gather to better ourselves and to help one another w/ problems and learn from one another about combat.. . I look up to my guys as they do me.. I value their decisions on situations like what happend last night.. In fact we discussed this today in training.. and in all, it was well recieved.. in fact the only slack im catching is here but thats ok.. I really don't matter and it really don't matter.. i put this out there to help others either chose to or chose not to act the same way I did... Im only human I do make mistakes..
> 
> ...


 

Well i thank you for sharing. i agree that wee are all human and make mistakes.  Your signature says chief instructor so i took that to mean what it says at face value, which to me says you are in charge of teaching and teaching the teachers to teach.  Your original post asked a question about being a killer or a warrior and some other questions.  I do not think this was a warrior move.  In the best of circumstances the best martial artist can fall victim to an accident, step on a rock, slip and it is over regardless of rank or training.  It is best , imo, to avoid a confrontation, if possible and to de-escalate things , if possible.  barring these options win at all costs.  Your story has several points where everything could have been avioded or de escalated.  Therefore, my point is that it was a stupid mistake (not that you are stupid, please note that) and that you were lucky..intoxicated and out numbered is a bad situation.  and with my understanding of a true friend and  / or chief instructor one should help others avoid such errors.  Your subsequent post about posting the event here as a way for people to learn from it, i regard as very helpful and insightful.  Imo, you are here today to discuss this not becuase of your actions, rather, inspite of your actions, it was not a survivor thing you did. However,as you say, we are different people and you did publically invite opinions and you do not have to like or agree with any of them.  In the end we all will learn what we will from anything we are exposed to and hopefully grow from it.  i know this is one of my main goals here on MT...to learn and grow.
Be well, be safe, train hard and train well

Repsectfully,
marlon


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## kailat (Nov 2, 2008)

Well, first allow me to state since this keeps coming up.. the "cane sword" was just part of my costume.. I didn't even have it with me that I can recall at time of the incident.. my brother actually had it w/ him in his car as he was awaiting our arrival as we walked accross the parking lot.. so that was not even the issue.. and NO I would of not even of used it, or shown it, as it was just a costume piece that I had for the night..noone even knew it had a sword in it but me.. I gave it to my brother when he took his "intoxicated wife to the car" I told him we would be there in a few minutes as i was actually talking to another off duty officer who was hanging out at the same place...

 Yes and drinking that night well, I had a few drinks by count as I stated I had 4 beers in a 5 hours time stretch.  I was only drinking socially hardly intoxicated.  Although yes .08 is legally intoxicated I couldn't fathom i was at that point, but i didn't take a PBT so who knows.. 

 As far as carrying a knife is concerned I'll say this;  I've carried a knife on my  person probably everyday for nearly 20 something years... I can't recall a day my pocket knife doesn't go w/ me no matter where I go.. Work, Play, Church, Backyard, etc... its just part of my daily attire like someone who carries a wallet.. three things I grab before i ever walk out my door, my keys, my wallet, and my knife.  Its just a part of me.. I'll make this point ONE LAST time.. please I understand I made poor judgment call in this particular case..  If I were not drinking and done the same thing I hardly think the critisism would be nearly as harsh.. but because I had it's defenitly what's impaired my logical thinking.. AND perhaps your absolutly correct.  Would I have acted and done the same thing had I had nothing to drink?  Honestly, I think I would have to be honest.. WHY?  I'll tell you exactly why for the 3rd time.  It was an instinctive response to draw an equalizer in a situation where I felt threatened... A learned and trained motor skill.  When you train for 20years to engage weapons and train ths into your gross motor skills for reaction it is an almost guaranteed instinct to react to what you know.. RIGHT or WRONG, MORAL or IMMORAL it is a trained response.. I think the only way to  prevent this from happening again is to "NOT" carry a knife (period)...  This will prevent the incident from happening again.. I have always lived by the motto : it's better to have a knife and not need it, than to need a knife and not have it!  I don't know if that is a good motto today..

 And here's a good twist for u who thnk by me adding this was right or wrong!  I'll say this: 

I added this a because i was upset and wanted others to learn from others mistakes..and to realize a threat is around every corner so dont think for a second you can't be attacked for no reason.

B) I could of just been making this up for good conversation and to get a great thread going for sake of arguing w/ the martial talk group! ; ) 

C) who knows maybe I witnessed this from a distance and it happened to someone else and I just wanted to portray this happened to me and I wanted to post this to see how others reacted by putting a public servent and martial artist in that loop.. it wouldn't of made agood topic if it was just some average joe.. hell this happens every day in some neighborhoods and cities right?  

D) who knows maybe it really happend!  

  there is no way to tell the truth as no one was there.. after all we are always told not to believe everything we read on the internet right???? 

  I see one thing that this POST has done, it has made many think.. it has struck up a great conversation and best of all it has served a great lesson for many and has given this forum something to discuss that is worth reading and discussing rather then filling the threads w/ crappy post!  ; )

 enjoy your week guys.. and if we've all learned anything from this whole thread which i've enjoyed guys, seriously...  think twice before u consume alcohol and carry weapons.. and if your out on a night on the town, don't think twice you cannot become a victim and "ARE U Prepared to use self defense and take a chance of going to jail for what you think is right?"


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## marlon (Nov 2, 2008)

Cory obviously voiced his concern and deescalation intent to the first guy, and preemtively struck when he felt there was no chance of defusing. Running is out with friends and family, so now he is committed. When the second badguy engages, and the first guy is still down, it is still a fair fight. That guy goes down, too bad. When their intent is not changed and they get up, its 2 on 1, it stops being a self defense situation, and begins to be a survival situation. For a sober man with one knife, this would probably be a no brainer in court. Where the rub is here is the combination of multiple weapons, alcohol, and environment. I have seen this in court more times than I can recall. The DA will hammer into the jury that the combination of those things made it mutual combat and poor judgement. He only needs poor judgement to hang you.

.[/quote]


perhaps i missed it but in the original post the 2 assailants were did not show any weapons and Cory was not alone.  He was with  buddies and his brother.  Which would have made it look even worse in a court of law.  I am going to leave this thread alone , i think , b/c i do not want to make it seem as though i am picking on Cory.  BTW is a LEO a police officer?  

respectfully,
Marlon


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## kailat (Nov 2, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> Hey Kailat! Did not mean to say that you were acting silly or anything. It sounds to me that your actions were quite justified.
> You know, many of us are warriors or at least aspire to be brave in situations such as your recent ordeal. I do respect you greatly as a fighter for having defended yourself so promtly. But being in a place with likeminded people has its plus side because you CAN share your stories with us. On the other side, you can expect that many of us also share the same stregths as well as struggles and issues, so it's not easy hiding anything-if there's anything worth hiding...
> 
> Probably, the one of the greatest worries i had reading your post was that you could get in trouble for having all those weapons on you....whatever though. All's well that ends well, right?
> ...





Well, i appreciate and respect your post as I do everyones on here.. It is not our place to judge another's actions.. if you were sitting on a jury trial then well we could all be judgemental then..  However, in fact these forums are exactly for these type of situations in my opinion its a martial arts forum.. learn from real world experiences... to talk and explain about martial arts and in the Self Defense part talkabout self defense situations... why fill up wasteless and endless threads talking about how to defuse or what we " would do" rather then what we did do!  and how we could of changed it.   By going thru the scene after the fact and discussing the instant and critisisng it, it a great thing and gathering others opinions on what could of been done differently..  that is what we call "DEBRIEFING" of an said incident or training!!  basically thats what i was looking for in this post was to debrief the actions taken and discuss other course of action.. thank again


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## kailat (Nov 2, 2008)

Seems there was much more going on in town that night than a little incident in the parking lot!!  

according to paper a riot broke out on campus along w/ a massive fight at the fairgrounds..  where several agencies were called to dispearse the altercation;  

No arrests were made at either the fairgrounds or the gas station, Sgt. Joe Kresja of the XXXX Police Department said.

You dont wade into a crowd unless youve got a lot (of officers), Kresja said, adding that because the officers were greatly outnumbered, arresting one person in a crowd could lead to the crowd rioting or attacking the officers.

hmm,  when officers or anyone is outnumbered you dispearse the situation using tactics that outweight the objective there for making sure nonone gets injured!!  I think that is a phenominial idea.. who would of thought of that????  Much like getting attacked in the street by two idiots and u call thier bluff by upping the anty a bit to slow them down and redirect thier thought process from harming you...


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## marlon (Nov 2, 2008)

kailat said:


> Seems there was much more going on in town that night than a little incident in the parking lot!!
> 
> according to paper a riot broke out on campus along w/ a massive fight at the fairgrounds.. where several agencies were called to dispearse the altercation;
> 
> ...


 
i am not sure your assessment of the officer's statement is completely in line with mine.  but then again i am here to learn.
be well and thanks for this thread

marlon


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## Andy Moynihan (Nov 2, 2008)

kailat said:


> Well, first allow me to state since this keeps coming up.. the "cane sword" was just part of my costume.. I didn't even have it with me that I can recall at time of the incident.. my brother actually had it w/ him in his car as he was awaiting our arrival as we walked accross the parking lot.. so that was not even the issue.. and NO I would of not even of used it, or shown it, as it was just a costume piece that I had for the night..noone even knew it had a sword in it but me.. I gave it to my brother when he took his "intoxicated wife to the car" I told him we would be there in a few minutes as i was actually talking to another off duty officer who was hanging out at the same place...
> 
> Yes and drinking that night well, I had a few drinks by count as I stated I had 4 beers in a 5 hours time stretch. I was only drinking socially hardly intoxicated. Although yes .08 is legally intoxicated I couldn't fathom i was at that point, but i didn't take a PBT so who knows..
> 
> ...


 
For what it's worth, I have never objected to the fact you went armed, or that you defended yourself.

My single and only problem in the incident was that you chose to consume alcohol *While armed*. That is an inviolable no-no.


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## GBlues (Nov 18, 2008)

Alright here is the thing. It is black and white. Anytime a man outside of a sparring session or MA school something of that nature. Attacks you it is a life or death situation. There is only one reason for why someone would attack another person and that is to cause serious bodily injury or death. Period. You need to be able to stop them using any tools or methods at your disposal, because that man attacking you is going to do everything in his power, to stop you permanently. If you don't go into every encounter with that mentality, one day you won't come out. My $.02.


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## BrandonLucas (Nov 18, 2008)

Alrighty....I realize that this thread is old, but I'm throwing in my .02 worth because this pretty much goes against all that I believe about the MA's..

1)  There was no reason at all for things to get out of hand like they did.  If you are able to open your mouth to speak, then you have the ability to attempt to properly avoid a confrontation.  Properly avoiding a confrontation does not consist of throwing out macho statements like "You don't want to try that with me," and "You don't know who you're messing with."  It would consist of "Listen, I'm not here to fight," or "I don't want to fight, so we're leaving...have a good night."

This is failure number 1 on your part.

2)  I applaud your girlfriend for yelling at you, even though she definitely should not have tried to jump in the middle of the confrontation.  I hope she's still mad at you about it.  Maybe you should have listed to what she was saying, and understood why she was yelling at *you* and not *them*.

This is failure number 2 on your part.

3)  You were drunk.  This explains why this even happened the way it did...and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being drunk with friends at a party or something.  But if you don't know how to behave while intoxicated, then you should just stay home or don't drink, or both.

This is failure number 3 on your part.

4)  You pulled a weapon after you already effectively, yet wrongly, dispatched the people you were in the confrontation with...and you did this while intoxicated.  This is not considered equalizing the situation in the eyes of the law...this is considered excessive force in the eyes of the law.  The "attackers" were already dealt with...and you demonstrated that you could take care of a 2 on 1 situation without a weapon, even while intoxicated.  Bringing out the weapon wouldn't have served any purpose other than to needlessly hurt someone...but this, again, could have been avoided in the first place...see failure number 1.

This is failure number 4 on your part.

5)  I've seen in some of your posts that you think that because you made it home alive that you succeeded somehow.  Yeah.  You did make it home alive.  And you still would have been alive if you had corrected failure number 1...and your girlfriend wouldn't have been mad at you, and you wouldn't have had a ruined evening.  This tells me that you have failed to learn anything from this situation.  If you can't see that you should have tried to talk your way out of the situation effectively before using your physical training, then this negates any of the rank you could have earned, in my book.

This is failure number 5 on your part

6)  This one is a biggy...so you're an instructor??  And a cop??  Wow.  And this is how you behave off duty??  It's one thing to hang out with friends and have a few drinks, but to act the way you did is not excusible by any means.  I don't care if you're off duty or if you're not in your instructor's uniform...you should conduct yourself with honor and integrity, and you failed big time at this.  Think of it this way:  would you expect to see the Pope pick a fight with someone just because he wasn't in the Vatican and he didn't have his robe on?  I certainly hope you don't behave this way with your class or when you're patrolling the streets.

This is failure number 6 on your part.

7)  You posted the whole experience for the world to see.  I can appreciate your honesty.  I really can.  But seriously.  All your post taught me is a newfound respect for my instructor and my parents for raising me the way they did.

This is failure number 7 on your part.

Seriously.  Think about what you've done.  Give it alot of thought.  I hope you understand what you need to change about your outlook on the situation, and I hope you understand it before the situation comes up again and either you or someone else gets hurt.

Major disappointment.


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## Josh Oakley (Nov 21, 2008)

Actually, I have to stand in support of kailat. He gave warning. he tried to back the guys down. And even once the knife was deployed, he used his fist instead. Granted, that bit at the end I think you should have held the hugger back with a hand instead of a fist, but I think you did well. By your description, deploying the knife ended the fight. Show of force worked as a deterrent. 

I'd talk to your girl though. My wife has come to the point to where she knows when a fight _could_ break out, and makes sure she's out of the way in case something _does_ break out.


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## Deaf Smith (Nov 21, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> for some reason, the "3-Stupids Rule" is running through my head...


 
Oh yea Ken! To that I agree. 

If asked to fight, I'd tell them they are an idiot and leave. Most of the time I do have a weapon, from Glock to Smith J. And that alone keeps me from getting into a fight.

When you knowingly bring a weapon to a fight, or start an argument knowing you have a weapon, that can very easly bring a storm of criminal charges if something goes down. Many a person has gone to jail cause the jury heard they and brought a weapon and agreed to fight.

No thank you guys. I'm not afraid to get hurt, or even die, but to spend time in jail cause I violated the 'three stupids', no. Just not worth it.

Deaf


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## Josh Oakley (Nov 21, 2008)

But he didn't start the argument. He didn't agree to fight. He didn't bring a weapon to a fight. He brought a weapon to a BAR. The drunk part, well, there's a reason I only drink at my house with certain friends and family, but other than that he did what he should have done. I think a lot of posters are being unnecessarily harsh with the guy. He had two guys coming at him and a girlfriend to defend all while making sure he didn't get hurt himself. He tried to back the guys off. They were pursuing him. They kept coming after he used minimal force. He displayed a knife and it was an effective force deterrent. Frankly, he was in the right _even_ keeping in mind that he's LEO and a martial arts instructor. He could have done a lot worse and showed restraint. I don't think he'd have lost a court case. 


People got on him for being willing to use the knife. one thing I've always been trained on is, "Only pull a knife if you're willing to use it. Otherwise, it's a liability." I think his response was reasonable, and he should get credit for the restraint he showed.


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## BrandonLucas (Nov 21, 2008)

Josh Oakley said:


> But he didn't start the argument. He didn't agree to fight. He didn't bring a weapon to a fight. He brought a weapon to a BAR. The drunk part, well, there's a reason I only drink at my house with certain friends and family, but other than that he did what he should have done. I think a lot of posters are being unnecessarily harsh with the guy. He had two guys coming at him and a girlfriend to defend all while making sure he didn't get hurt himself. He tried to back the guys off. They were pursuing him. They kept coming after he used minimal force. He displayed a knife and it was an effective force deterrent. Frankly, he was in the right _even_ keeping in mind that he's LEO and a martial arts instructor. He could have done a lot worse and showed restraint. I don't think he'd have lost a court case.
> 
> 
> People got on him for being willing to use the knife. one thing I've always been trained on is, "Only pull a knife if you're willing to use it. Otherwise, it's a liability." I think his response was reasonable, and he should get credit for the restraint he showed.


 
I give him credit for showing restraint.  I aknowledge that he could have kept going, but rightly chose to stop.  

Now, as far as being unnecessarily harsh...all the 2 guys did were the basic school yard bully taunting.  That's all.  Did they throw any strikes?  No.  Did they attempt to throw any strikes?  No.  One guy simply "got in his face"...while not wearing a shirt...and, according to him, the other guy was on his butt before he knew what hit him.

So, now, I ask, how is it that I'm being unnecessarily harsh in anything that I've said based on what the OP described?  In fact, let's take it part by part, starting from where the action kicks in...

"*Okay so, as we all walked back to our cars to part for the evening there was 2 guys who wanted to start talking crap to my group..."*

They're talking crap at this point...

*"They wanted to run off at the mouth.. start just throwing their hands up and saying crap that just really irritated me and done it QUICK!!!!!!! I don't know what got into me, but i just wasn't in the mood for either of thier mouth's.."*

So now, they're still talking crap, but they've started "throwing their hands up".  Oooh, scary...

*"So this dumb fool wanted to strip his shirt off as he started walking towards me..I said " dude your crossing the line.. i wouldn't do it!"" I begged him to stop!!"*

Now, I will say this...he did attempt to do the right thing here.  The problem is, however, he attempted to do it in a confrontational tone.  The words "I wouldn't do it" have an understood "or else" attached to them...and we all know that drunks cannot resist finding out what the "or else" is going to be.  Of course, this probably would have come out better had the person saying it been sober...

*"He continued and got right in my face at which time he ended up on his *** and I honestly don't know how it even happend...LOL.."* 

Ok, first off, I don't see how an "lol" can apply to this situation...anyway, up to this point, the other guy has done nothing, by the OP's admission, but "get right in his face".  This does not warrant what comes next, which was knocking the guy "on his ***".  If the OP were in a more sober state, there could have been any number of things that could have been said to diffuse the situation...but be that as it may, things escalated beyond backing down.  I think the question that has to be asked is "Is danger imminent in this situation?"  Truly, the only person that can answer that is the OP, since he was there...but by going from his own words, I just could not justify what happened....



*"His buddy came up stripping his shirt off and "BAM" he was next to his buddy both picking themselves off the pavement. "*

Now, here, I could understand stopping an oncoming attack...although, it wouldn't have gotten to that point had the initial attack been avoided.  The whole reason his buddy is attacking is because the OP has just put is buddy "on his ***"...so his natural reaction is to jump in and help...wrongly...by going on the attack.

*"My buddies, my girl and my brother all standing in all as I started tearing my costume off of me in seconds..*"

So here, I'm confused...his buddies are there to watch him start tearing off his costume, but the OP thinks that this is a 2 on 1 situation...I don't see that.  First, "buddies" is plural, meaning that there is more than 1 buddy with him and his girl, so now, in the OP's group, we have no less than 3 males and 1 female, while there are only 2 "attackers"  This doesn't sound like imminent danger for the OP to me....



*"having my tactical folder on me, my K-BAR TDI blade in my back, and a cane that was part of my costume which included a sword hidden inside the cane itself.. HMMM I was like look guys.. " you are both in the wrong.. leave it alone and go home"*

Here, we see that the OP is considering the fact that he has weapons at his disposal if he needs to use them...and then, thankfully, he tells these guys to "leave it alone and go home".  Still not the best choice of words, but it's much better than what has just occured.

*"My girl started getting in my face and the other two guys.. Hmm imagine that.. a girl starting to get in between the ****!! I was pissed at this time..I think I was more so mad at her than the other two guys..* *"*

His girl shouldn't have been directly in the line of fire, this much we all agree on.  But she had every right to be angry, at least.
*"Both said it was on to me.. I said bring it.. and next thing I said was " u TWo need to recognize as i quickly clicked open my tac folding blade.. OOOPS!!! but at this time it was GAME ON!!"*

So, the OP starts by saying, just before this, that they should just leave it alone and go home...but then comes back with "bring it"...yeah, that's trying to calm a situation.  And then, the OP proceeds to pull a weapon...now, at this point, he has already put both of these guys on their collective asses...what is the weapon for?

"*in my mind I was gonna cut both of them no matter what.."*

Yep.  That's what it was for.  So the OP's pissed at this point, and is now going to "cut them both no matter what".

"*the two outnumbered me, and in my eyes it was deadly force *
*issue.."*

But we just figured out a few lines ago that he, in fact, was *not *outnumbered...

"*When the blade came out the two quickly changed thier tunes and backed down.. *"

At this point, I can see to guys backing down when a blade is pulled...they actually did the smart thing.  If only that had been the *intent *on pulling the weapon...but I digress.  

*"i put the knife up and said " U need to recognize im not your punk *** white boy take your attitude down the street to someone you can punk out.. cause im not that guy"...."*

Something I can give credit on here...he puts the knife up when the "attackers" back off.  But then, he's gotta ruin it by spewing a macho, cheesy line.


"*The one guy quickly came to me as he was sorry and tried to hug me.. As I was not feeling that cause ididn't know him.. He quickly caught a right hook to the jaw I did not trust him..Ipunched him straight in the face.. I told him " Im not your friend, your pal.. GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!Ithink he realized quickly I was not Messing w/ him anymore.. ""*

I can understand not wanting the guy that just tried to attack you try to hug you...but does this really warrant a cheap shot?  I mean, come on...the guy has already been put on his *** and then had a knife pulled on him...of course he's sorry he messed with him.  The OP is now the "alpha male" in the situation.  Good for him.  Be wary of a cheap attack, but don't deliver one first... 

"*his buddy as comical as it was, went from bad *** to "big *****" real fast...."*

Well, it was either become a big ***** or get his jaw rocked for no reason...I think he made the right choice here.  And I don't find it comical.

"*NOW I felt they started crap w/ me and my family and friends for NO reason.. I was not about to settle for thier half *** appologies.. they made me mad.."*


So now, we're back to "family and friends"...multiple people in his party...where it was stated a few lines up that the 2 outnumbered him...anyway, he says he wasn't going to settle for their "half *** appologies."  So now they're backing down from him, aknowledging that he won the fight, but that's not good enough?  Geez.  

*"i was ready to kill both of them..."*

And this, sir, is the key to it all.  Sure, he showed restraint in *not *killing them.  But we see where his intentions were.  All these 2 guys did was talk a bunch of junk.  They didn't try to kill him or his girl or his friends.  They were just acting like drunk turds...which is exactly how the OP was acting...

So the question here, I guess, is this:

Is the OP any better than the 2 attackers??


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## Tez3 (Nov 22, 2008)

Having read all through this I agree wholehearted with Brandon's summation.


Quote _"And here's a good twist for u who thnk by me adding this was right or wrong! I'll say this: 

I added this a because i was upset and wanted others to learn from_ _others mistakes..and to realize a threat is around every corner so dont think for a second you can't be attacked for no reason.

B) I could of just been making this up for good conversation and to get a great thread going for sake of arguing w/ the martial talk group! ; ) 

C) who knows maybe I witnessed this from a distance and it happened to someone else and I just wanted to portray this happened to me and I wanted to post this to see how others reacted by putting a public servent and martial artist in that loop.. it wouldn't of made agood topic if it was just some average joe.. hell this happens every day in some neighborhoods and cities right? 

D) who knows maybe it really happend! 

there is no way to tell the truth as no one was there.. after all we are always told not to believe everything we read on the internet right????_ Unquote    Kailat

Whether or not things written on the internet are true or not, people on MT will take things written on here at face value and try to help, support or given advice in good faith. The suggestion by the OP that it could all be made up or just something he saw is a little disingenous and suggest he's playing games with us. Yes the internet 'is the internet' but MT is one of the best forums going for being polite, truthful and respectful. After so many people posting in good faith to make fun of them is disrepectful.


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## Josh Oakley (Nov 22, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> *"My buddies, my girl and my brother all standing in all as I started tearing my costume off of me in seconds..*"
> 
> So here, I'm confused...his buddies are there to watch him start tearing off his costume, but the OP thinks that this is a 2 on 1 situation...I don't see that.  First, "buddies" is plural, meaning that there is more than 1 buddy with him and his girl, so now, in the OP's group, we have no less than 3 males and 1 female, while there are only 2 "attackers"  This doesn't sound like imminent danger for the OP to me....



Let's look at the sober post:



> My brother who was the DD (designated driver) was already in the car, waiting as my gf/ my sister in law and I were walking to the car



If it's me and two women, and two guys getting half naked and ready to fight, I'm going on the defensive as well. 



> *"Both said it was on to me.. I said bring it.. and next thing I said was " u TWo need to recognize as i quickly clicked open my tac folding blade.. OOOPS!!! but at this time it was GAME ON!!"*
> 
> So, the OP starts by saying, just before this, that they should just leave it alone and go home...but then comes back with "bring it"...yeah, that's trying to calm a situation.  And then, the OP proceeds to pull a weapon...now, at this point, he has already put both of these guys on their collective asses...what is the weapon for?
> 
> ...



Jimmy Woo (of Kung Fu San Soo) once had a trucker trying to fight him, he flipped the switch and said, "Too bad you die today!" with determination and the trucker backed down. Anyone who knows Mr Woo's history knows Jimmy would have done it, too, had the trucker not backed down. But the words and the intent ended the fight.

In kailat's situation, the words, knife, and intent ended the fight, and the fight would have gone on longer, had he not done that. If he had not had a mind to cut them it would have shown in his eyes, and be viewed as a weakness. Anytime you deploy a blade, be it sword, knife, sharp piece of glass, your mind should be on the kill or you'd be better off not deploying it. 

But the reality of the situation is if it really was "no matter what" their backing down would not have stopped him from cutting them. So yeah, you're being overly harsh. Match the words to the actions.



> "*the two outnumbered me, and in my eyes it was deadly force *
> *issue.."*
> 
> But we just figured out a few lines ago that he, in fact, was *not *outnumbered...


 still going by the sober post.



> "*When the blade came out the two quickly changed thier tunes and backed down.. *"
> 
> At this point, I can see to guys backing down when a blade is pulled...they actually did the smart thing.  If only that had been the *intent *on pulling the weapon...but I digress.



If you pull a weapon with intent of deterrance, you're not intending to use it, and it's a liability. I'd be on his case if he drew with the intent of _not_ using. 

*



			"i put the knife up and said " U need to recognize im not your punk *** white boy take your attitude down the street to someone you can punk out.. cause im not that guy"...."
		
Click to expand...

*


> Something I can give credit on here...he puts the knife up when the "attackers" back off.  But then, he's gotta ruin it by spewing a macho, cheesy line.



Ok, I'll give you that.




> "*The one guy quickly came to me as he was sorry and tried to hug me.. As I was not feeling that cause ididn't know him.. He quickly caught a right hook to the jaw I did not trust him..Ipunched him straight in the face.. I told him " Im not your friend, your pal.. GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!Ithink he realized quickly I was not Messing w/ him anymore.. ""*
> 
> I can understand not wanting the guy that just tried to attack you try to hug you...but does this really warrant a cheap shot?  I mean, come on...the guy has already been put on his *** and then had a knife pulled on him...of course he's sorry he messed with him.  The OP is now the "alpha male" in the situation.  Good for him.  Be wary of a cheap attack, but don't deliver one first...



Like I said in a previous post, he should have used a hand. But at the same time, I'm willing to give him leeway on this, because I've had the cheap shot done on me. He likely gave cause for these two idiots to think twice before getting into another fight. Good stuff from my vantage point.

*



			"i was ready to kill both of them..."
		
Click to expand...

*


> And this, sir, is the key to it all.  Sure, he showed restraint in *not *killing them.  But we see where his intentions were.  All these 2 guys did was talk a bunch of junk.  They didn't try to kill him or his girl or his friends.  They were just acting like drunk turds...which is exactly how the OP was acting...



Again, I won't fault him for being ready to kill. If his intent was to kill them no matter what, he would have. His *intention*was surviving and protecting his girlfriend and his sister-in-law. Two on one would probably be able to be done without killing, but the chaos factor comes in when you're protecting someone, more so when you're protecting two someones. He wasn't *intending* to kill them. He was *ready* to kill them. That's no minor discrepancy. 

Again, if his intention were lethal I'd side with you. But were his intention lethal, his actions would be necessarily lethal as well. he had a perfect chance to kill the hugger, and _punched _him. 

If you intend to survive, you have to be ready to kill if necessary or you may not survive. Anybody teaching something else is cheating his students. And possibly sending them to slaughter. 

I still stand behind kailat.



> So the question here, I guess, is this:
> 
> Is the OP any better than the 2 attackers??



...


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## Tez3 (Nov 22, 2008)

Josh, you may also want to ask yourself if any of what has been posted by the OP is true after what he has said.

What the OP has written, taken at face value, when he was drunk has more bearing on what he was thinking at the time. Posting when he's sober he's had time to reflect and correct any bad impressions he's given. You can't go by the 'sober' posts, he was drunk when the incident occurred. It was his state of mind and his actions *when drunk* that are under scrutiny, what he later says when sober is not the point.

IMO he was wrong and aggravated a situation that may have not originally turned out to be violent. Being prepared for violence is fine, beng prepared to defend family and loved ones is fine, acting the aggressor because you're drunk and someones talking pisses you off is not fine.


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## BrandonLucas (Nov 22, 2008)

Josh,

Were he sober, all of what you said would be valid.  What I'm pointing out is that if he were thinking with a clear head and truly didn't want to be in an altercation, none of what was posted would have happened.

Also, I don't really agree with being ready to kill if you choose to pull a weapon.  I agree with being ready to *use* the weapon, yes, but *kill*, no.  And I still don't see the reason why he felt he had to bring it out in the first place.  He effectively dealt with both of those guys already...even if they had attacked him, I'm quite sure he could have fended them off without too much trouble from what he described.  

And let's take a look at what *could *have happened there...the OP had no way of knowing what state of mind those guys were in.  He was lucky they reacted the way they did...they could have reacted like most other drunk macho guys would have in that situation and charged him anyway, despite the fact that he had a weapon.  And then what?  He kills the guy?  Over what?  That is what I define as *senseless violence*.

And you make a semi-valid point about the cheapshot thing...sure, he had the opportunity to kill him, and he didn't, instead cheapshotting him.  What I'm saying here is that there was no *need* in striking the guy.

Really, that's the key to it all.  No matter what the other guys said, there really was no *need* for any of that to happen.  And then, once it did, and the opportunity for everything to end presented itself, the OP got in a cheapshot on a guy that was backing down.

Now, this is all assuming that the post has the correct information, as Tez pointed out.  It could be very possible that the OP was typing what happened in the middle of an adrenaline dump, and what was typed was a combination of what *did* *happen* and what *could have happened*.  But, all we have to go on is what was written...we are not able to see what the OP's thoughts were when typing the post.

Also, going from the sober post, his brother was the DD.  DD stands for *designated driver.*  A designated driver is usually sober.  So where was that guy during all of this?  He didn't seem to feel the need to jump in the middle of an altercation waiting to happen, so that makes me wonder why the OP was in the situation to begin with.  Could it be that he himself was just waiting on something to happen?  We will never truly know the answer to that, since we can't see in his head.

I mean, we've all been there before...you've had a great day; you're celebrating it by having a few drinks, which get you feeling pretty good, and then some drunk turd has to ruin your fun by making a scene in front of your buddies and your girl.  Are you going to back down and risk looking like a punk?  No....you don't want to be made fun of....

That's pretty much how I read it.  Maybe that's not what really happened, as Tez said...I don't know.  I wasn't there.  But going from what was posted, that's what I get out of it.

I don't feel like I'm being too harsh on the guy, either.  What I said a moment ago about senseless violence goes against *everything* I have learned through the martial arts.  In fact, one of the reasons I even started training in TKD at all was because of people who react that way, without any common sense.  

Another good point that Tez made was that he actually posted that hoping others would learn how to handle a situation from his post.  I learned how *not* to handle the situation from it...but I sincerely hope that noone tries to emulate what he did.


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## Josh Oakley (Nov 22, 2008)

I agree to a point. One thing I'd point out is the DD was already in the car. my guess is that he probably didn't see it. But like you, I wasn't there. And I've already said it would be better to drink at home, so we agree there. I'll even agree that it was a little excessive. A little.

I think the difference we have stems from a different philosophical aproach from our respective backgrounds. In San Soo, and in the Army, and in Shaolin Kempo, I learned that if you draw a knife, be ready to use a knife, and if you use a knife, someone's going to the hospital, or getting killed. If you cannot psychologically cope with that, you should not bring a knife. 

I'd agree to a certain extent if we were talking about weapons as a general topic. But it's a knife. If you're not prepared to kill with a knife, leave the thing at home because it will likely kill you.


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## BrandonLucas (Nov 22, 2008)

Josh Oakley said:


> I agree to a point. One thing I'd point out is the DD was already in the car. my guess is that he probably didn't see it. But like you, I wasn't there. And I've already said it would be better to drink at home, so we agree there. I'll even agree that it was a little excessive. A little.
> 
> I think the difference we have stems from a different philosophical aproach from our respective backgrounds. In San Soo, and in the Army, and in Shaolin Kempo, I learned that if you draw a knife, be ready to use a knife, and if you use a knife, someone's going to the hospital, or getting killed. If you cannot psychologically cope with that, you should not bring a knife.
> 
> I'd agree to a certain extent if we were talking about weapons as a general topic. But it's a knife. *If you're not prepared to kill with a knife, leave the thing at home because it will likely kill you*.


 
I think I've been looking at what you're saying about that incorrectly...I do agree that if you're going to bring a knife to a fight, you should be mentally prepared to accept the consequences of bringing the knife, or else just leave it at home.

The thing is, I just don't see where the knife was needed in this situation.  He had already taken care of the attackers once without trouble, and probably could have done it again.

And even beyond that, it could have ended by him getting in his car and leaving them to talk trash to his taillights.  That would have been the best solution.  I was just taught that you don't use the physical part of your training to end situations like the one described in the OP, you use the mental part of your training.


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## Tez3 (Nov 23, 2008)

The OP has himself posted up that none of what he wrote might be true and he was perhaps making it up for the sake of having a discussion on here. All many people are seeing is that he was attacked by two men whereas if you read it closely you will find he wasn't attacked at all, he had two guys who annoyed him with their talk....he didn't say what they were saying it could have been aggressive or it could have just been drunks burbling. Then he says one guy was coming towards him so he hit him, then he hit the other guy. One guy tried to apologise so he hit him again.

He says his brother was standing beside him then says his brother was in the car. He doesn't say at any point he was in fear of his life or he was afraid for his GF and brother, he says he was pisssed off with the two drunks so he hit them then pullled a knife on them.Then starts crowing rascist rubbish. he was the aggressor not the two guys who were probably just being a nuisance, as Brandon points out getting in the car would have been the sensible thing to do.

I've read a great many statements in my career and this clearly doesn't add up, neither the drunk account nor the sober account. 
Ladies and gentleman I'm afraid I think the OP is yanking our chains, here, _he said himself that maybe it didn't happen or that it could have been something he saw._


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## BrandonLucas (Nov 23, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> The OP has himself posted up that none of what he wrote might be true and he was perhaps making it up for the sake of having a discussion on here. All many people are seeing is that he was attacked by two men whereas if you read it closely you will find he wasn't attacked at all, he had two guys who annoyed him with their talk....he didn't say what they were saying it could have been aggressive or it could have just been drunks burbling. Then he says one guy was coming towards him so he hit him, then he hit the other guy. One guy tried to apologise so he hit him again.
> 
> He says his brother was standing beside him then says his brother was in the car. He doesn't say at any point he was in fear of his life or he was afraid for his GF and brother, he says he was pisssed off with the two drunks so he hit them then pullled a knife on them.Then starts crowing rascist rubbish. he was the aggressor not the two guys who were probably just being a nuisance, as Brandon points out getting in the car would have been the sensible thing to do.
> 
> ...


 
I agree.  Much of what was said doesn't add up...the one thing it has done is start a discussion about the situation.


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## Tez3 (Nov 23, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> I agree. Much of what was said doesn't add up...the one thing it has done is start a discussion about the situation.


 

Thats true and that's always a good thing!! :uhyeah:


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## Carol (Nov 23, 2008)

Or it may be some furtive backtracking after the OP realized that posting on the internet at 2am about a preventable drunken incident with weapons on Halloween night was not the wisest thing to do.


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## Tez3 (Nov 23, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> Or it may be some furtive backtracking after the OP realized that posting on the internet at 2am about a preventable drunken incident with weapons on Halloween night was not the wisest thing to do.


 

Mmm... like a friend of mine who when drunk texted his ex! The look on his face though when he'd realised next morning what he'd written was a picture!
Stay away from computers and mobile phones when drunk!!!!


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 3, 2008)

kailat said:


> Does this make me *an idiot*?


 
Survey says:::::YES!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 3, 2008)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MartialTalk Super Moderator-*


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## billybybose (Dec 4, 2008)

Why did'nt kilat flash his badge instead of a knife?Why does he have a knife instead of a gun?What if the bg s were hard cases instead of barflies?The fourth stupid is don't bring a knife to a gun fight.Why is a guy with a possible traumatic stress disorder allowed to be a sworn officer.Look at the title of his thread "dont sing it ,bring it".Alcohol brings to the surface whats hidden deeper and this guy seems to have issues.What happens when kilat parties down on New Years eve and has a six pack instead of four and spearhands some other reveler in the throat?What happens when the revelers lawyer finds kilats thread and sues mt for not reporting a ticking time bomb?Teachers have to teach self-control or this is what you get.Without the do all you have are thugs.


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