# Who Practices a Western Martial Art?



## Jonathan Randall (Jul 21, 2006)

Who on MT Practices a Western Martial Art and WHY? Western Martial Arts (WMA) include, but are NOT limited to: Western Boxing, Wrestling, Krav Maga, Systema and other RMA, Fencing, Native American Fighting Arts, Archery using Western style bows, and Savate. You may choose more than one!


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## elder999 (Jul 21, 2006)

Where to begin?

I've been boxing since I was about 8, or at least, learning to box since then-I did do the Golden GLoves and nearly get my head handed to me. I also picked up a little about _Indian_ combat a long the way, and I wrestled for a short time in middle school and high school, but quit because making weight was stupid for someone with my medical history (or anyone at that age, but it was the 70's....). I've been an archer for a long time, though I pretty much use it exclusively to hunt elk and deer (and turkey, though I don't kill many-yes, I usually get outsmarted by an animal with a brain the size of the tip of my finger!)


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## Jonathan Randall (Jul 21, 2006)

elder999 said:
			
		

> Where to begin?
> 
> I've been boxing since I was about 8, or at least, learning to box since then-I did do the Golden GLoves and nearly get my head handed to me. I also picked up a little about _Indian_ combat a long the way, and I wrestled for a short time in middle school and high school, but quit because making weight was stupid for someone with my medical history (or anyone at that age, but it was the 70's....). I've been an archer for a long time, though I pretty much use it exclusively to hunt elk and deer (and turkey, though I don't kill many-yes, I usually get outsmarted by an animal with a brain the size of the tip of my finger!)


 
Sounds a lot like me! Did archery from fourth grade until high school, wrestling in school, and boxing in college where I _tried _to compete but _nearly got my head handed to me _as well!


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## green meanie (Jul 21, 2006)

I've been involved in Wrestling as a competitor and coach for close to thirty years.


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## samurai69 (Jul 21, 2006)

I practice Jogo de Pau (portuguese stick fighting) only occassionally at the moment, but after the summer will concentrate more on it


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## Ken Pfrenger (Jul 21, 2006)

Bareknuckle boxing
Wrestling/Sambo
Irish martial arts
Savate
Historical fencing
navaja/bowie/hawk
RMA

Dabble in Garrotte Larense, Jogo Du Pau, fokos and several other arts


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## Flying Crane (Jul 21, 2006)

I voted other, as I train Capoeira.  I guess it's western, certainly not Asian.  Developed in Brazil, but with African roots.  Trained heavily for about 6 or 7 years, then was away from it for about 8 years while I pursued other arts, and recently returned to it for more training.


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## Robert Lee (Jul 21, 2006)

If you train in your art/style. And live in the west Its western arts. It may have came from a eastern land but it must adapt to the western culture and use. M/A has became a world art Not region any longer.


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## SFC JeffJ (Jul 21, 2006)

I was a "C" class epee fencer back in the day.  I still do keep a hand in it through some coaching.  Also I used to do a little boxing.

JeffJ


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## Samurai (Jul 21, 2006)

I practice Native American Martial Arts (my own blend of Shawnee stuff)
historical fencing
Archery (own WoodlandArchery.com )
Russian Systema through tapes and seminars (no personal teacher)
and some other stuff that I find on the table from time to time.

My main art is Jodoru Jiu-Jitsu from Prof. T.A. Frazer

Thanks,
Jeremy Bays


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## Jonathan Randall (Jul 21, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I voted other, as I train Capoeira. I guess it's western, certainly not Asian. Developed in Brazil, but with African roots. Trained heavily for about 6 or 7 years, then was away from it for about 8 years while I pursued other arts, and recently returned to it for more training.


 
OOPS! Big oversight on my part. More probably train in Capoeira than in some of the other arts I mentioned. Good point.


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## rutherford (Jul 24, 2006)

I picked other.


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## lklawson (Jul 31, 2006)

Irish Shillelagh and English Quarterstaff
Military Sabre, Cutlass, and Longsword
Mendoza style Pugilism (Bare Knuckle Boxing) and Collar and Elbow Wrestling
Bowie Knife, Tomahawk, and Spear
 Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Jonathan Randall (Jul 31, 2006)

lklawson said:
			
		

> Irish Shillelagh and English Quarterstaff
> Military Sabre, Cutlass, and Longsword
> Mendoza style Pugilism (Bare Knuckle Boxing) and Collar and Elbow Wrestling
> Bowie Knife, Tomahawk, and Spear
> ...


 
Interesting mix. You should start a thread on some of them - we'd love to hear more about ones such as "Mendoza" style pugilism and Irish Shillelagh from an actual practitioner!


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## Kenpodoc (Aug 2, 2006)

lklawson said:
			
		

> Irish Shillelagh and English Quarterstaff
> Military Sabre, Cutlass, and Longsword
> Mendoza style Pugilism (Bare Knuckle Boxing) and Collar and Elbow Wrestling
> Bowie Knife, Tomahawk, and Spear
> ...


Interesting, tell us more.

Jeff


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## Ric Flair (Aug 9, 2006)

I'm doing Boxing right now outside of my Wing Chun studies.

I plan to do many more years of sparring and maybe even do some amateur stuff.  

The conditioning is awesome.


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## Haze (Aug 9, 2006)

Just curious as to why some of these arts mentioned are being considered Western arts when most of them come from Europe, eastern countries?


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 9, 2006)

Eastern Europe is still considered the west, especially considering that when most think of martial arts, they think of the far east.

Jeff


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## Robert Lee (Aug 9, 2006)

If you are in the west Its now western. Any art must adapt and meet the needs of the people. In the Est you are doing it That way. What comes from any country must blend to fit in. That to me is what any M/A in America must do or it will not be yours it will be some one elses.


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## lklawson (Aug 21, 2006)

Sticks: Irish Shillelagh & Quarterstaff
Mostly Shillelagh.  Ken Pfrenger's "style".  Stick held roughly 1/3 - to cover the elbow.  The Quarterstaff gets far less play.  More dabbling really.  Most of our practice is based off of skills taught by Paul Wagner.

Swords:
Mark leads our sword practices.  Military Sabre - Mostly this is 18/19th C. English/America Military Sabre.  Working from historic texts.  I became interested in this as an adjunct to my Bowie practice.  Cutlass - again, working from historic texts mostly.  Again, this interest was sparked by my Bowie practice.  Because of the difference in blade lengths between Military Sabre and "Swords for Sea Service," as well as a difference in the space available to use the weapon, it often gets used in a somewhat different manner; often more "knife like" than Military Sabre.  Note: historic texts on Cutlass usually treat it as nothing more than a Military Sabre.  Longsword - I can post as a human pell for Mark when he dabbles in Longsword.  He'd like to study this more but my interests don't leave much room for it.

Brawling:
Mendoza Style Pugilism - has a strange forward leaning and extended attituted ("stance" in modern parlance).  I find it easier to learn and practice than some of the more modern styles such as Dempsey (which is great stuff too!).  Most often critiqued for being easily guard-crashed, I find this to be a non-issue since when range was crashed to a clinch, historically, this would be time for classic pugilistic grappling; attempts at a trip, throw, headlock, etc.  This is an ideal tie in for Collar and Elbow Wrestling.  Additionally, I've personally selected each styles since they were (supposedly) popular with the Irish and so both fit in nicely with my Shillelagh practice.

Bowie & Hawk:
Based around Dwight McLemore's work, the work of various associates of his such as Steve Huff, and Military Sabre style.  'Hawk tends to be an inellegant weapon, not suited for "fencing" at all.  Once it gets moving, it's moving.  You guide it, not control it.

Spear:
Isolationistic study of Fiore's Spear work.  I find his guards to be very effective defensively at the ranges appropriate for a spear of this size.

Additionally, I personally do some work in Bartitsu, Vigny/Lang la canne, and Judo (which meshes well with Bartitsu).

Not sure if this illuminates my study any but there it is, nonetheless.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Keith Nelson (Aug 22, 2006)

Fiore dei Liberi's system from the Flos Duellatorum/Fior di battaglia manuscripts (Longsword, dagger, unarmed, spear, poleaxe)

Irish Stickplay - Much like Kirk & Ken, since it comes from Ken's interpretations...
Collar & Elbow wrestling (when I can find a willing partner)
Bareknuckle boxing (when I can find a willing partner)

Hungarian fokos

All to a lesser or greater extent depending on events in my life & if I have folks to train with...

Keith


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## lklawson (Aug 23, 2006)

Keith Nelson said:
			
		

> Hungarian fokos


Just out of curiosity, where do you get your fokos info/training?

I know Ken has been working with this and has a contact but, in general, technical info seems pretty hard to come by.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Slihn (Aug 26, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Who on MT Practices a Western Martial Art and WHY? Western Martial Arts (WMA) include, but are NOT limited to: Western Boxing, Wrestling, Krav Maga, Systema and other RMA, Fencing, Native American Fighting Arts, Archery using Western style bows, and Savate. You may choose more than one!


 
I practice alittle bit of boxing (which is included in my Muay Thai training). I think that boxing( as long as you know where and how to throw a punch without injuring your hand)  can compliment both striking arts very well.Care must be taken not to damage you hands or wrist though if you fight outside of the ring.Outside the ring,I think that elbows are better becuase there is less of a chance of injuring youself(but more of a chance of seriously injuring your attacker).

My school also teaches abit of wrestling.Wrestling is funny because it has a very strong point and another point that makes you very vunerable for certain types of attacks.Of course we all know that wrestling is strong in slams,on serious slam (in the ring or out) can put a fighter out of comission very quick;but wrestling has a lack of "finishing" moves.There are many techniques to get you to the ground,but not many(outside of pinning an opponet) "finishing" moves(if any). Also many wrestling moves can keep you open to Jiu-jitsu/Judo, Sambo, and other submission attacks.

When you think about, it all styles can compliment another.Imagine a fighter with the quick disbaling hands in Kempo,with the power of Muay Thai shin kicks and elbows,with the deceptivenss and spinning moves of Taekwondo,the footwork of Western style boxing,the Joint locks of Aikido,the throws of American Wrestling and the submissions of BJJ.

Heck of a fighter huh?

-good training

(..sorry I think ,I got off the subject lol)


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## searcher (Aug 27, 2006)

I have trained in and fought fights in American Boxing since 1995.   It is a training that I will always keep up and hope to pass on to my children in addition to my other arts.


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## Dave Dickey (Sep 1, 2006)

Hey! It is good to see Ken and Kirk here!!! How's it going boys? I could use more info for the mag if you are up to it....email me...

As far as styles... for me combine kirk and ken's lists and add Longsword, short sword and shield and American streetfighting.....


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## lklawson (Sep 1, 2006)

Dave Dickey said:
			
		

> Hey! It is good to see Ken and Kirk here!!! How's it going boys? I could use more info for the mag if you are up to it....email me...


Going well.  Good to hear from ya.

I'll drop you an e-mail.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Keith Nelson (Sep 5, 2006)

lklawson said:


> Just out of curiosity, where do you get your fokos info/training?
> 
> I know Ken has been working with this and has a contact but, in general, technical info seems pretty hard to come by.
> 
> ...


 
Same place as Ken.  Russ Mitchell is the one who showed me what I have in the first place and I try and keep up what he showed me.  Basically just the same as Ken's info, but with a solo form that his instructor developed.

Keith


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## lklawson (Sep 5, 2006)

Keith Nelson said:


> Same place as Ken.  Russ Mitchell is the one who showed me what I have in the first place and I try and keep up what he showed me.  Basically just the same as Ken's info, but with a solo form that his instructor developed.
> 
> Keith


Someone needs to force Russ to write a book or make a video or something.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Ken Pfrenger (Sep 13, 2006)

Dave Dickey said:


> Hey! It is good to see Ken and Kirk here!!! How's it going boys? I could use more info for the mag if you are up to it....email me...



Hi Dave,

Nice to see you posting here. I have a few article ideas floating around in my head....I'll see if I can get any of them a bit more concrete.


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## Cead Bua (Sep 13, 2006)

Trained by father in:
Rince an Bhata Uisce Bheatha (Irish Stick Fighting) since 1972
Western Boxing since 1969


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## JoshLittle (Sep 15, 2006)

I voted "Fencing", though that's a bit broad and a bit off the mark. I am the organizer and head instructor for Ars Gladii, a group in the Detroit Metro area that focuses on the medieval German arts from the 14th and 15th century. We work with the longsword, sword and buckler, dagger, poleaxe, and wrestling. 

We will (if I can get some of my guys off their butts) be adding a physical culture/pugilism night in the near future. We have one of my student's 4-year old to blame for this one. Never let those big green Incredible Hulk punching gloves near a group of sword fighters. Much pummeling will ensue and they may even get the misguided notion that they want to box in their heads


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## lklawson (Sep 15, 2006)

JoshLittle said:


> We will (if I can get some of my guys off their butts) be adding a physical culture/pugilism night in the near future.


Hey Josh.  Nice to see you on a forum that I occasionally read.  

I was thinking about you just today.  Actually, I was reviewing the video of Paul's Quarterstaff II class from the CB '05 Seminar and you and Mark managed to get on camera quite a bit.  

What are you thinking of doing for Physical Culture?  We've been kicking around an idea of doing a Physical Culture class at the '07 Seminar.

Peace favor your sword,
KIrk


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## JoshLittle (Sep 15, 2006)

Hey Kirk! How's things?

Probably do some Farmer Burns stuff, some medicine ball work, and probably some Indian clubs as well. I'm going to try and find some old games as well. We'd start off with this stuff and then box for the second half. It should be fun, if I can get people to show up for it.


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## lklawson (Sep 15, 2006)

JoshLittle said:


> Hey Kirk! How's things?


Finner than frog's hair.  


JoshLittle said:


> Probably do some Farmer Burns stuff, some medicine ball work, and probably some Indian clubs as well. I'm going to try and find some old games as well. We'd start off with this stuff and then box for the second half. It should be fun, if I can get people to show up for it.


Sounds like a lot of fun to me.  Sandow is *the* resource on the web for Physical Culture.  I personally did Strongfortism mixed with the Carl Gotch Bible for something like a year.  It was a good general workout.  Had some drawbacks but nothing too serious or that couldn't be overcome.

As for your recruitment, what seems to have been the most successful method and what's been abject failures?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## JoshLittle (Sep 15, 2006)

> Sounds like a lot of fun to me.  Sandow is *the* resource on the web for Physical Culture. I personally did Strongfortism mixed with the Carl Gotch Bible for something like a year. It was a good general workout. Had some drawbacks but nothing too serious or that couldn't be overcome.


Sounds good. I'm looking up Sandow as we speak.. err... type...



> As for your recruitment, what seems to have been the most successful method and what's been abject failures?


Nothing and everything... I have absolutely no idea on how to actually get people to show up to class. I have a hard time just getting some of my (very few) long term students to show up. Ryan has called in "Guiness" that last few weeks, the bastard... 

For us, heavy web prescence has done diddly for recruitment. Our site generates about 30 hits a week, which isn't bad for a real niche site. About 1/3 to 1/2 of those hits are Michigan people. The only new person I've actually gotten through the door this year lives in Indiana and comes up to the area for his job every 4-5 weeks. I've hit places of high interest in swords and fighting, where I'm known and the calibre of my person is known, and generated 0 interest. 

I'm trying to get some kind of public demonstration set up but haven't been able to find a venue for it. The last time the Detroit Institute of Arts had anything remotely close to our time period was 4 years ago when I wasn't in any kind of position to give a public demo. I'm on the "proposed class list" for the Spring/Summer scedule at one of the community colleges to teach a class on the longsword. Hopefully that will go through. 

We haven't gone the route of printed flyers yet. I'm not quite sure where to actually post them. 

I'm probably the wrong person to ask on recruitment


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## bustr (Sep 15, 2006)

Occasionally train German longsword and Abrazare.


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## lklawson (Sep 15, 2006)

JoshLittle said:


> Nothing and everything... I have absolutely no idea on how to actually get people to show up to class.


Seems to be a common problem 



JoshLittle said:


> For us, heavy web prescence has done diddly for recruitment. Our site generates about 30 hits a week, which isn't bad for a real niche site. About 1/3 to 1/2 of those hits are Michigan people. The only new person I've actually gotten through the door this year lives in Indiana and comes up to the area for his job every 4-5 weeks. I've hit places of high interest in swords and fighting, where I'm known and the calibre of my person is known, and generated 0 interest.


Same for me.  I've got a few friends on RMA who claim that "when they're in the area" they'll stop in, but that has yet to happen.



JoshLittle said:


> I'm trying to get some kind of public demonstration set up but haven't been able to find a venue for it. The last time the Detroit Institute of Arts had anything remotely close to our time period was 4 years ago when I wasn't in any kind of position to give a public demo. I'm on the "proposed class list" for the Spring/Summer scedule at one of the community colleges to teach a class on the longsword. Hopefully that will go through.


Dayton recently had its Celtic Festival so we went over to a nearby public park and held our practice for the passers-by.  We roped a few guys into practicing with us for a bit but there were really just interested in making a fan movie so nothing came of that.

Good luck on the college class!



JoshLittle said:


> We haven't gone the route of printed flyers yet. I'm not quite sure where to actually post them.


We've been having the same problem.  The places we post our fliers don't seem to be actually generating a whole lot of calls.  Tags get torn off but that's about it.  The latest hit came from a flier I posted in a local library.  I'd designed that flier with a "living history" theme and we've got a single hit off of that, but it's encouraging.  Many of the other fliers there were historic or semi-academic in nature.



JoshLittle said:


> I'm probably the wrong person to ask on recruitment


Show me the right person.  ;-)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Cruentus (Sep 15, 2006)

JoshLittle said:


> Sounds good. I'm looking up Sandow as we speak.. err... type...
> 
> 
> Nothing and everything... I have absolutely no idea on how to actually get people to show up to class. I have a hard time just getting some of my (very few) long term students to show up. Ryan has called in "Guiness" that last few weeks, the bastard...
> ...


 
We are up in North Oakland County, and I haven't heard anything about you guys. Nice site, though. Yes, getting people in the door is always difficult. Michigan sucks right now for anything that would require expendable income also.

We should make plans to get together; I wouldn't mind seeing how you guys train. Sounds interesting. 

Paul Janulis


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## JoshLittle (Sep 17, 2006)

> We are up in North Oakland County, and I haven't heard anything about you guys. Nice site, though. Yes, getting people in the door is always difficult. Michigan sucks right now for anything that would require expendable income also.


See? I told you I was the wrong person to talk to about recruitment  We're going on our 7th year of operation, in one form or another. We've been small since the beginning. 



> We should make plans to get together; I wouldn't mind seeing how you guys train. Sounds interesting.


Sounds like a plan. Too bad we're so far away from each other, or we could make it a more regular thing. I'm also interested in the modern side of what you guys are doing. Drop me an email at josh@arsgladii.com and we can try and arrange something.


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## Cruentus (Sep 17, 2006)

JoshLittle said:


> Sounds like a plan. Too bad we're so far away from each other, or we could make it a more regular thing. I'm also interested in the modern side of what you guys are doing. Drop me an email at josh@arsgladii.com and we can try and arrange something.


 
No problem, I'll drop you a line (sorry for the lag time, just got back from a long weekend out of town again).


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## Fionn McCool (Sep 17, 2006)

Ken Pfrenger said:


> Bareknuckle boxing
> Wrestling/Sambo
> Irish martial arts
> Savate
> ...


 
Very cool stuff, I've never heard of most of these things. What falls under Irish martial arts? And what is Navaja/Bowie/hawk (knife fighting?)


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## Ken Pfrenger (Sep 18, 2006)

Fionn McCool said:


> Very cool stuff, I've never heard of most of these things. What falls under Irish martial arts? And what is Navaja/Bowie/hawk (knife fighting?)



Howdie Fionn!

The Irish martial traditions I study include the stickwork (third grip, twohanded grip and fencing grip),wrestling and boxing. While there are Irish styles of wrestling (a native backhold style called coraiocht and collar & elbow) there is no Irish boxing style but the Irish sure took to the English version didn't they? So I combine these three elements into one cohesive system...it's alot of fun!

A navaja is a big folding knife from Spain. It's use overlaps that of the bowie knife. Both of these make a fine companion to a tomahawk.

if you have any more questions I would be happy to attempt to answer them.


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## Fionn McCool (Sep 18, 2006)

Ken Pfrenger said:


> Howdie Fionn!
> 
> The Irish martial traditions I study include the stickwork (third grip, twohanded grip and fencing grip)


 
Yes, I had alook at your site and read some of your links, great stuff! So judging by what I see you prefer the onehanded grips. Any particular reasons?

I can't believe this stuff is more common knowledge. Great job bringing it to the forefront.:samurai:


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## chinto (Jan 2, 2008)

Ken Pfrenger said:


> Howdie Fionn!
> 
> The Irish martial traditions I study include the stickwork (third grip, twohanded grip and fencing grip),wrestling and boxing. While there are Irish styles of wrestling (a native backhold style called coraiocht and collar & elbow) there is no Irish boxing style but the Irish sure took to the English version didn't they? So I combine these three elements into one cohesive system...it's alot of fun!
> 
> ...



hmm interesting.. would like to know what sources and things.  I have an invitation from the Vatican Swiss Guard to Learn the Halberd from them if I can get there..... I also have 20+ years of experience in the S.C.A.  some in the fighting.. others in martialling and other things.  I hope to soon take the commando de suiss up on that offer!


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## tellner (Jan 2, 2008)

Other - Defensive firearms tactics


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## Darth F.Takeda (Mar 9, 2008)

Gunfighting-As American as apple pie.


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## Bodhisattva (Mar 17, 2008)

elder999 said:


> Where to begin?
> 
> I've been boxing since I was about 8, or at least, learning to box since then-I did do the Golden GLoves and nearly get my head handed to me. I also picked up a little about _Indian_ combat a long the way, and I wrestled for a short time in middle school and high school, but quit because making weight was stupid for someone with my medical history (or anyone at that age, but it was the 70's....). I've been an archer for a long time, though I pretty much use it exclusively to hunt elk and deer (and turkey, though I don't kill many-yes, I usually get outsmarted by an animal with a brain the size of the tip of my finger!)



Western Boxing
Western Wrestling styles
BJJ


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## kwaichang (May 8, 2008)

Now there's a Western martial art for you.


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## Ahriman (May 13, 2008)

Hmm... I practice ringen, dagger, longsword, dopplehander, poleaxe, all these in the Liechtenauer tradition. Besides this I'm learning messer, hand-pavise, spear, again in the Liechtenauer tradition. And besides this I practice knife and unarmed from various sources. Aaaaaand I plan to start studying Krav Maga and Systema soon - if I like them, I'll start learning.
Aaaaaaaand...:uhyeah:


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## kwaichang (May 13, 2008)

Well German fencing tradition generally isn't considered a martial art.  Swordsmanship, I've always thought of as its own art while martial arts always involves physical techniques and sometimes weapons also, swordsmanship generally does not generally involve unarmed combat.


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## thardey (May 13, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> Well German fencing tradition generally isn't considered a martial art.  Swordsmanship, I've always thought of as its own art while martial arts always involves physical techniques and sometimes weapons also, swordsmanship generally does not generally involve unarmed combat.



Through other discussions of the forum about _Martial Arts_, I would say that here, generally speaking, swordsmanship is definitely included. Most would consider Japanese Sword Arts, or Haidong Gumdo (sp?) as a Martial Art. It doesn't matter whether it is from the east or the west.

P.S.

Some (myself included) would go so far as to include personal firearms use as a martial art. That is if you actually _train in how to use it._


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## kwaichang (May 13, 2008)

Thardey: thanks, I appreciate the input, it's just that it never crossed my informational input.  As for your P.S.

Some (myself included) would go so far as to include personal firearms use as a martial art. That is if you actually _train in how to use it. __

Here too, I've never encountered anyone who considered firearms (useage) a martial art.  Now we're not talking Iraq here.  I've only my Bureau training, S&W training and visits to my local range buddies to base this on._


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 13, 2008)

Firearms training is certainly a part of the martial science that I train in. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (an integral part) 

I would also agree with Thardey that European swordsmanship, knife work, etc. is also a martial form or art in its own right.


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## Ahriman (May 13, 2008)

Two things I have problems with in your post, kwaichang, though nothing personal. _(you're only degrading a rather big part of my life, how could be that personal? *)*_
1, The thread mentions fencing and archery as a possible art of choice. In my mind fencing is something done with swords, and archery is something done with projectiles... now I don't know for sure what did the thread starter mean by fencing, but olympic fencing is, while a rather demanding sport, very much removed from martial context, and "ye ole fechten" with actual swords is... what I mentioned.
2, Swordmanship not involving unarmed combat? I've never seen_ (so far)_ a fechtbuch not covering at least ringen am schwert... most cover pure ringen as well.
3, (I know I said two problems) The masters who thaught this "stuff" back then considered it to be an art, they killed and died for it. For this, I respect their opinion, thus I consider this an art as well. We shouldn't get into the ages old "only easterns had real arts" VS "stfu japanmaniac sob" debate, both sides had arts, end.
...
...
...
*Afterword: I didn't intend to bring this to a personal level. It's possible that some of my words came through as harsh or rude, but it's not their goal. I'm in a cynic mood right now. My apologies for anyone who feel that my words were personal attacks.*
(better to clarify this - I might be in cynical mood, but I'm surely not in the "Iwannabebanned" mood)

Edited to emphasize one important part of my post - and to add that I allow my "dark humour" to sometimes attack myself, which over the net sometimes end up misunderstood. I know (or at least I suspect) that you do not degrade what I do.
I feel we spent way more time on this than it deserved. But if we are at it, anyone a little more kicking-of-a-dead-horse?


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## kwaichang (May 13, 2008)

Ok, to use a Darmokian phrase: Temba, his arms wide.

BTW, there was nothing degrading said, merely my opinion based upon my experience in non-eurocentric things.

Nothing you said was taken in a personal context and your practices were certainly not degraded in my eyes.


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## lklawson (May 14, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> Well German fencing tradition generally isn't considered a martial art. Swordsmanship, I've always thought of as its own art while martial arts always involves physical techniques and sometimes weapons also, swordsmanship generally does not generally involve unarmed combat.


It's quite common for those unfamiliar with Western based martial arts to think this way.  It's not a moral failing but rather a simple lack of exposure coupled with failing to link concepts.  As another poster mentioned no one doubts that kenjutsu is a "Martial Art" though it is (generally) "sword only."  By transitive property European arts which are "sword only" are equally "Martial Arts."

To continue, some researchers (myself included) believe that the very *term* "martial art" itself is of European descent.  The phrase "Arts martial" is used in noted historic European fight manuals (sword centric) dating back centuries.  This comes from the time when "Art" was generally meant to be a refined skill; i.e. the "art" of hearaldry, reading, and writing or the "art" of carpentry.  Certainly the Japanese terms "jutsu" and "do" (body skills and path/way) and the Chinese term "kungfu" (hard work/sustained effort) do not, even losely, translate to either "art" nor "martial."

Please don't be offended by any responses which may (or may not) be in the offing.  We Western Martial Artists tend to be a bit touchy with the simple fact that our arts (and their very origin) are often disregarded or completely unknown by the greater martial arts community.

Hopefully discussions such as this on (sub) forums such as this will help to promote that knowledge.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (May 14, 2008)

> Here too, I've never encountered anyone who considered firearms (useage) a martial art. Now we're not talking Iraq here. I've only my Bureau training, S&W training and visits to my local range buddies to base this on.



What a rare and welcome opportunity to spread the word!

Most people who practice both a more "traditional" martial art as well as firearms for Self Defense (SD) or combat consider their firearms training to be a "martial art" as well.  It's very, very common.  Take a look at the usenet forum rec.martial-arts as an example of a forum that runneth over with people who consider firearms training a "martial art."

Considering that "martial" (in this context) means roughly "of, deriving from, or having to do with war or combat" and "art" being a refined skill, firearms skill applies just as easily as kyudo/kyujutsu, being essentially exactly the same martial art excepting the substitution of the firerarm for the bow.  Continuing that thought, I point you to the Japanese "Martial Art" of Jukendo, which is rifle-with-bayonet fighting (a *subset* of firearms use).  In continuation of the theme, note that, besides the obvious martial and SD application, firearms training, in many cases, bears all the halmarks of any other "traditional" (i.e. oriental) martial art in that qualified and certified istructors teach students, there are numerous bodies organizing various aspects of training such as sport competition and SD targeted yet competitive outlets.  Further, many of these organizations issue multiple levels of *ranking* for acquired and demonstrated skill in the "art" such as Marksman, Pro Marksman, Marksman First Class, and Sharpshooter.

The only thing that it lacks in making it a "martial art" in the minds of some is white pyjamas and calling the rank 'shodan' instead of 'sharpshooter'.

Seriously, you should look into the body skill, and commitment required for SD or Combat related study of the art of firearms use and base your consideration of whether or not its a "martial art" upon that.  I think you'll find yourself pleasantly surprised.

Oh, but like a top level set of Kendo gear, bring your wallet.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## kwaichang (May 14, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> Temba, his arms wide...


enough already. :-(


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## Ahriman (May 14, 2008)

Right now, I think that we are only using your words to illustrate a typical point of view rather than proving "just how miserably unbearably wrong" you were. :wink1: At least to me your posts indicated that either you understand or at least tolerate our views - and I vote for possibility #1 personally.
...
You simply brought up a common mindset in which I don't think you're personally responsible - if even 18-19th century *european* fencers spoke very ill of older methods of killing our fellows, how could we presume anyone not involved in these AND coming from a totally different culture or practising an art of aforementioned culture understand this at first glance?
...
Problems (and these ARE personal) I have with those who spread their views as a teacher. Both sides (EMA-WMA) have instructors-masters-teachers who misuse their credit as a teacher, which results in their pupils accepting what they say as true. Some of these misconcenptions can be taken very lightly _(like yours)_, while some of them are close to that kind nonsense which makes me want to pull a dagger. Or a cannon for that matter. :angry: But when I hear someone say even a huge idiocy I remind myself that he/she only says what he/she either saw on TV or heard from an instructor or another practicioner. Thus I give them chance to understand. If they understand or accept, fine, one more defiled mind - if they refuse or say that how could I know, I'm "only banging huge and overweight iron bars together", I get a bit angry. That anger usually ends when I ask them that if I have no art, would he/she please defeat me in free combat...? :EG:
...
lklawson: given the word itself you don't really need any belief in it's european origin... Etymologically it refers to Mars - the god not the planet.  So we have a word here that refers to an ancient roman god - why would easterners create a category name which refers to that god from that era? Or why would we europeans name eastern arts after a god long since "dead" then? _(BTW, if I recall it well, the term was first mentioned in either the 14th or the 15th century; I may be wrong though)_

Sorry for the rather long and seemingly chaotic post.


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## kwaichang (May 14, 2008)

Ahriman said:


> At least to me your posts indicated that either you understand or at least tolerate our views - and I vote for possibility #1 personally.


 
Most kind.:wink1:


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## lklawson (May 14, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> enough already. :-(


Please don't misunderstand.  I'm not upset with you in any way.  Just using the opportunity you so kindly presented for me.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (May 14, 2008)

Ahriman said:


> lklawson: given the word itself you don't really need any belief in it's european origin... Etymologically it refers to Mars - the god not the planet.  So we have a word here that refers to an ancient roman god - why would easterners create a category name which refers to that god from that era? Or why would we europeans name eastern arts after a god long since "dead" then?


Indeed.  That would be thinking logically about it.  Actually that would be *thinking* about it.  Nevertheless, it seems common for many people to assume that "martial art" is some sort of direct translation from one of the oriental languages.  They correctly understand that the individual words "martial" and "art" are English (well, Latin-ish anyhow) but, for some reason, seem to believe that putting the two words together to form the term of art "Martial Art" never occured before the introduction of oriental martial arts and that it must, somehow, be a translation or something.  <shrug>

_



			(BTW, if I recall it well, the term was first mentioned in either the 14th or the 15th century; I may be wrong though)
		
Click to expand...

_14th sounds right.  I could look up the reference and find the exact date (burried *somewhere* in my stacks-upon-stacks of material), but I doubt anyone reading this thread cares for what the exact date is.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Ahriman (May 14, 2008)

I would thank you very much if you could find the exact source... I scrolled through my books, but most German sources use "kunst des fechten" - and as I focus on the German tradition, I don't really have Italian, English or Spanish sources.
And yes, I was too lazy to read through Liberi right now.:lol:


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## lklawson (May 14, 2008)

Ahriman said:


> I would thank you very much if you could find the exact source... I scrolled through my books, but most German sources use "kunst des fechten" - and as I focus on the German tradition, I don't really have Italian, English or Spanish sources.
> And yes, I was too lazy to read through Liberi right now.:lol:


I'll dig through my sources when I get a chance.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## kwaichang (May 14, 2008)

lklawson said:


> Please don't misunderstand. I'm not upset with you in any way. Just using the opportunity you so kindly presented for me.


 ok, then I think this quote applies.:EG:

*Dr. Buddy Rydell*: Now then we need to go over some ground rules. You are to refrain from any any acts of violence including verbal assault and vulgar hand gestures. You may not use rage enhancing substances, such as caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, crack cocaine, slippy-flippy's, jelly stingers, trick sticks, bing bangs or flying willards. :duel:


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## Langenschwert (May 15, 2008)

lklawson said:


> I'll dig through my sources when I get a chance.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 
The earliest one I can think of is from Pallas Armata (an English rapier manual), which refers to the noble "Martial Art of Fencing" in its poetic preface.  It's from the 16th Century, long before contact with Asian arts.

As I said many times before, swordsmanship, firearms use and even flying a fighter jet are all martial arts.  Just so happens some are very modern.

Check it out: Todd Jarett, a martial artist of the highest calibre, whose weapon is the pistol: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48 Note the attention to breathing, fine technical control, etc.  If kyudo is a martial art, then so is this.

Here's some German longsword.  Note the similarities with Japanese koryu kenjutsu.  So if kenjutsu is a Martial Art, so is this: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=lYwdE3f5fFQ

Here's some more.  Note the armed grappling at the end: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3DhjFUOG6Y&feature=related

Here's some German medieval Ringen: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=xfuMYqfmACM

And for the truly obscure, longswords with duelling shields: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=z9VG4ClQcJk

Obviously all martial arts.  The very term Martial Arts (and other similar terms) was applied to Western arts long before it was to those from the East.  But I'm certainly not going to say that Kenjutsu or Kung-fu aren't martial arts since they weren't developed in Europe.  But if I want to get all linguistically pedantic about it, I could certainly make such an argument.  And why would I do such a silly thing?  No good reason that I can think of.

If a koryu kenjutsu practicioner and I can recognize about 80-90% of what the other person does, what makes one a martial art and the other not?  Absolutely nothing...  just a person's opinion on what culture the word applies to.  It would be just as asinine to say that classical european music is well, music, while classical Indian music is just "organized groupings of sound and silence".  Isn't that what music _is_?  We've shown that the term Martial Arts originally applied to indigineous EUROPEAN arts, and weapon-based arts at that.  It's a European term, it applies to European arts.  You can use the term for Asian arts if you like (it certainly makes sense to do so, since we all speak English on this forum), but just remember where it came from (Europe), and what it means: The Arts of War.

Best regards,

-Mark


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## lklawson (May 15, 2008)

Langenschwert said:


> The earliest one I can think of is from Pallas Armata (an English rapier manual), which refers to the noble "Martial Art of Fencing" in its poetic preface. It's from the 16th Century


That's good enough for me.

I'll still look and see if I can find anything older but I'll move it down on the priority chart.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Ahriman (May 15, 2008)

*(just joking here)*
The art/s of Mars for that, but I'm only sometimes THIS pedantic about etymology. And only if I know what I say. And as I don't really learn Latin, I'm even more rarely pedantic than I'd like.
...
*(seriously from here)*
The videos are very, very nice. I'm rather surprised that others thought about using duelling shields as well - some of my biggest favourites. Sadly no one wants to try them out with me. 
The ringen video got me thinking again about recording the techniques... But I still hesitate as how could we do that without killing the partners AND showing intent, speed and strength required for proper understanding. I don't know if the guys who made the video were very skilled or very tough or very lucky.
...
As a pre-emptitive strike to _(but not against)_ those who may come in and start speaking about the spiritual part... Originally all martial arts have evolved for more efficient killing. No one can deny it, I think. In Europe, the arts became competitive sports _(both martial and non-martial)_, in the orient, they mostly became either competitive sports or got that spiritual part. You see, when you train for survival and victory, and your very life depends on the art, you don't really care for the philosophal part. If your training is no longer the last thing between you and death, you'll have time to think about things not relevant in combat. This is of course not a degrading of more modern arts - it's only what makes Wittenweller's work as much a martial art as Tallhoffer's. _(for those unfamiliar with these names, Wittenweller wrote purely about fighting, while Tallhoffer has parts dealing with manners, religion, etc.)_
...
Sorry - I might be in ranting mode.


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## thardey (May 15, 2008)

Ahriman said:


> As a pre-emptitive strike to _(but not against)_ those who may come in and start speaking about the spiritual part... Originally all martial arts have evolved for more efficient killing. No one can deny it, I think. In Europe, the arts became competitive sports _(both martial and non-martial)_, in the orient, they mostly became either competitive sports or got that spiritual part. You see, when you train for survival and victory, and your very life depends on the art, you don't really care for the philosophal part. If your training is no longer the last thing between you and death, you'll have time to think about things not relevant in combat. This is of course not a degrading of more modern arts - it's only what makes Wittenweller's work as much a martial art as Tallhoffer's. _(for those unfamiliar with these names, Wittenweller wrote purely about fighting, while Tallhoffer has parts dealing with manners, religion, etc.)_
> ...
> Sorry - I might be in ranting mode.



Renaissance Fencing had a lot to do with philosophy, geometry, and it's relationship to religion. The general idea was that the more you understood music, geometry, and other sciences, and the more you were able to live by them (fencing, dancing, etc) the more you were "in tune" with the God who created those sciences. 

See Christianity and Platonism

That's where I understand the idea of "judicial dueling" survived through the renaissance. While it originally was what it seemed, (God will favor the innocent.) In the renaissance it changed subtly. Now it was believed that one who has studied fencing _is_ more righteous than someone who hasn't. The study of fencing, music, dance, and geometry was supposed to actually _make_ you a more righteous person, since you are more "in tune" with God, and therefore make you act correctly in other areas of life as well.

In that way, it's not much different than Mushasi's take on dueling.


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## Ahriman (May 15, 2008)

After re-reading my post, I realized that dealing with 3 buyers AND speaking on the phone AND checking resources AND writing the post simultaneously probably wasn't a too smart idea... 
Especially the last part was written too hastily. I understand what did I mean, but I should have written it more clearly for the non-telepathic minority. I wanted to clarify that in my opinion the spiritual or not totally fight-related "content" or lack of it doesn't matter in the decision if it's an "art" or not. I hope no one  took my words as saying European arts have only combative parts. As thardey pointed out, it's not true.
I hope I was clearer this time about my intents.​


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## thardey (May 15, 2008)

Ahriman said:


> After re-reading my post, I realized that dealing with 3 buyers AND speaking on the phone AND checking resources AND writing the post simultaneously probably wasn't a too smart idea...
> Especially the last part was written too hastily. I understand what did I mean, but I should have written it more clearly for the non-telepathic minority. I wanted to clarify that in my opinion the spiritual or not totally fight-related "content" or lack of it doesn't matter in the decision if it's an "art" or not. I hope no one  took my words as saying European arts have only combative parts. As thardey pointed out, it's not true.
> I hope I was clearer this time about my intents.​



Yeah, that's how I took it. Even though WMA has spiritual roots, that still doesn't determine if it's a martial art or not. "Gun-fu" for instance, doesn't rely much on "inner peace".


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## kroh (May 15, 2008)

Other - Wrestling, Boxing, MACP

Regards, 
Walt


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## tapetemowin (May 16, 2008)

Tansi!

It is so interesting to  see the breadth of possibilities available in martial arts training! When I started out, I never imagined the ranges that are possible. Mind you, I also trained in fencing without recognizing it as a martial art. I just thought it was fun.

I train in okichitaw - a First Nations martial art based on Plains Cree fighting techniques and weaponry. In addition to the fencing I mentioned, I have trained in aikido and I currently study taekwondo. I am priviledged to work with a friend in iaido and jodo when we can manage it, but the focus of my training is now okichitaw. 

Okichitaw weapons include: the gunstock war club; short lance, tomahawk and knife.

Okichitaw is the most athletically challenging art I have trained in, and I particularly enjoy learning about the philosophical system that forms the underpinning of the art. 

With respect,

Tapetemowin


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## louie (May 19, 2008)

Currently training with the Glasgow Company of Duellists in German Longsword, I've also been involved in learning traditional forms of Scottish martial arts including singlestick, the broadsword Dirk & targe and traditional forms of wrestling. 

Scotland has a long history of 'dancing' with swords & daggers.... I've also been researching the 'Highland Dirk Dance' for several years now and would describe it as a dance-like kata - similar to an Indonesian knife form or 'juru' rather than the rigid karate styles.
One version of the dance involved attacking and defensive techniques with single-sticks and targe shields and was last performed in Britain in 1850 by two brothers named MacLennan, one of which was a colleague of Mr D. C. Mather who passed on this version of the dance I was taught.






In this pic, one of the last people to have been taught the dance takes me through the moves!

Louie


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## arnisador (May 19, 2008)

Wow, neat! I'd love to hear more about the dance-kata.


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## lklawson (May 19, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Wow, neat! I'd love to hear more about the dance-kata.


Not a whole lot of info available on the 'net for it.  From what I recall think of a combination of kata set to music and a rough-and-tumble competitive "men's only", partner is your competitor, division dance.

There are definitely examples of solo-set drills and other "kata"-ish type drills.  Examples include Angelo's lessons, the drills given in Pepper's Broadsword book, "Forming the Square" in Lang's Walkingstick manual, line drills in Cutlass (shipboard) and Police Saber (recent threat at Swordforum), and other various examples.  15 or 20 years ago, I remember reading a historical account of a king/prince/duke/general or something intimidating the opposing army by displaying profound skill while performing a "sword dance" in their view (no, I don't have any clue what the source material was, or even know for sure where I saw the quote... might have seen it on the original Arador Armory forum).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## louie (May 19, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Wow, neat! I'd love to hear more about the dance-kata.


 
Hi Arnisador...
There's a bit more info on the Dirk Dance on my site at;
http://dirkdance.tripod.com/

Hi Kirk 
There's also a kata-like set of moves called 'The Salute of the 5 Guards' which was for broadsword/singlestick. This can be found in the book 'Anti-Pugilism' by Capt. Sinclair.

Louie


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## lklawson (May 19, 2008)

louie said:


> There's also a kata-like set of moves called 'The Salute of the 5 Guards' which was for broadsword/singlestick. This can be found in the book 'Anti-Pugilism' by Capt. Sinclair.


Good call.  I'm embarassed to have neglected its mention.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## arnisador (May 19, 2008)

louie said:


> There's a bit more info on the Dirk Dance on my site at;
> http://dirkdance.tripod.com/



Cool, thanks! Hmmmm, I probably need the book...OK, just ordered it!


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## louie (May 19, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Cool, thanks! Hmmmm, I probably need the book...OK, just ordered it!


 
Hi Arnisador...

The book 'Highland Knife Fighting' was written by Chris Thompson of the Cateran Society who included my research into the Dirk Dance when putting it together. There's a chapter on the dance itself which has my interpretation and illustration of the leg locks, trips and sweeps, but doesn't give a step by step guide.

Having just bought a copy of the book myself, I've found that there's plenty of historical detail into the techniques used by Highlanders although personally I would disagree on Chris' interpretation on blocking a downward (ice-pick style) dagger attack - which would risk having your blocking wrist slashed or painfully locked. 

I would suggest that the Highlanders used the same method as other Europeans systems such as Talhoffer or Fiori to stop an attack, by catching the opponent's wrist.






Louie


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## Langenschwert (May 23, 2008)

I suppose I should also post Tom Knapp here as well.  Mind blowing.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5uHt4AwYb4&feature=related

Best regards,

-Mark


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## arnisador (Jun 5, 2008)

Wow, what accuracy!


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## Ahriman (Jun 6, 2008)

I started thinking _(yep, an unusual thing as some of my friends say)_ about something...
Namely that do we _(and if so, *why* do we)_ limit WMA to the individual fighting arts? Just because the more siege weapons I make, the more I plan my groups tactics at LARPs_ (yeah, nothing historical, but I'm fighting to make the rules better and more realistic)_ and the more time I spend with designing and upgrading our little fortress _(a simple camp fortification in the style of the 17th century-ish star forts)_, well with all this I feel more and more that these are parts of the art.
Opinions on this?


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## RedMonster (Jun 12, 2008)

I used to fence in college and I loved Sabre and Epee.  Funny now that I am getting into FMA that I resort to some of the parries I used in sabre as opposed to thinking about the other hand I have that is holding a weapon!  I think some of what I learned in fencing and that is certainly applicable in FMA, with emphasis on control and footwork. 

Red


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## kwaichang (Jun 12, 2008)

Indeed you'll find that many weapon techniques can be utilized without weapons.  
Your weapon is merely an extension of your hand/reach and so this is easily adapted.

de garde !:wuguns:


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## lklawson (Jul 7, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> Indeed you'll find that many weapon techniques can be utilized without weapons.
> Your weapon is merely an extension of your hand/reach and so this is easily adapted.


Just to play Devil's Advocate for a moment, consider that perhaps performing empty hand techniques the way you perform weapon techniques may not be optimum use and vice versa.

For example, when you thrust with a sword or a big knife, you want to point to do the work and accuracy and speed along with minimal telegraphing is absolutely *key* to success.  To that end you move the hand first, then the arm, and only then any body movement at all and that is largely linear.  The result of a typical "proper" thrust is often that there simply is not a whole lot of "force" behind it in comparison with other attacks.  There doesn't have to be.  You're concentrating the force in a needle sharp point which will quite easily penetrate even heavy leather and into flesh.  In contrast, when you punch, you want to put as much "force" into it as possible, because the fist isn't pointy you must bludgeon.  When punching, you engage the hips, the legs, the back, and often a hip-rotation or a drop-step body movement, all with the goal of increasing the force going into the punch.

The upshot of this is that if you were to punch exactly the same way you give point, then your punches will be weak and lack good power.  Further, if you give point the way you deliver a powerful punch, your thrust will tend to be more telegraphed and thus easier to defend.

So, just to be contentious and encourage polite debate, perhaps the old adage that you use your empty hands the same as if you were holding your weapon is perhaps not the best way to achieve optimum results.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## kwaichang (Jul 7, 2008)

lklawson said:


> So, just to be contentious and encourage polite debate, perhaps the old adage that you use your empty hands the same as if you were holding your weapon is perhaps not the best way to achieve optimum results.


ACTUALLY what I said was:



kwaichang said:


> Indeed you'll find that many weapon techniques can be utilized without weapons.
> 
> Your weapon is merely an extension of your hand/reach and so this is easily adapted.



MEANING should you not have your weapon, don't think you are defenseless, your hands can move in the same manner and provide a defense.  Obviously a weapon extends the reach, however, body positioning facilitates protection.


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## Taker87 (Oct 1, 2008)

There's Abrazare and antica lotta italiana(Italy), Pankration (Greece), Quarterstaff, boxing, Wrestling (England), Highland Wrestling (Scotland), Lucha and A Mano Limpia (Spain), Galhofa and Jogo Do Pau (Portugal), Zipota (Euskal Herria), Lucha canaria and Juego del Palo (Tenerife), Savate (France), Hopak (Ukraine), Xridoli (Georgia), Kunst des Fechten (Germany), Vechten (Holland), Systema (Russia), and Abir (Isreal) for european martial arts.  
In the Americas there's  Isuna Nika (Comanche), Rumi Maki (Peru), Lua (Polynesia), Oki Chi Taw (Cree)... that's all I know.


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## Taker87 (Oct 1, 2008)

There's a book Called Sevillian Steel by James Loriega based on spanish knife fighting, How to Wrestle Catch as Catch Can style (English) , Quarterstaff fighting ( English and German arts of staff fighting).


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## lklawson (Oct 2, 2008)

Taker87 said:


> There's a book Called Sevillian Steel by James Loriega based on spanish knife fighting,


James' book is excellent.  Worth the investment.  He also teaches a number of seminar events every year.  Worth it to try to get time with him if you can.




> How to Wrestle Catch as Catch Can style (English),


I have several antique CaCC manuals on my lulu site, free for download as PDF.  http://stores.lulu.com/lawson

Some number of Bare Knuckle Pugilism manuals too.  



> Quarterstaff fighting ( English and German arts of staff fighting).


Are you talking antique manuals such as Silver or are you talking new material such as produced by Terry Brown?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## jarrod (Oct 2, 2008)

Jonathan Randall said:


> Who on MT Practices a Western Martial Art and WHY? Western Martial Arts (WMA) include, but are NOT limited to: Western Boxing, Wrestling, Krav Maga, Systema and other RMA, Fencing, Native American Fighting Arts, Archery using Western style bows, and Savate. You may choose more than one!


 
i have boxed & done a small amount of wrestling in the past.  i fenced for about 6 months.  i also train sambo, & have recently booked a block of 5 private lessons in italian dagger with a historical fencer named mark wickersham.  also, i have been reading up on gouren & cornish wrestling, & recently contacted Gouren USA to see about integrating celtic wrestling into my club.  we also integrate bits of catch wrestling which i have no formal training in, but the principles of which i adhere to more closely than bjj or more mainstream grappling styles (controlling your opponent from any position, submission from anywhere, why pass the guard when you can leglock, etc).  

i have recently become facinated with la canne & irish stick fighting, & once i get relocated to denver in may i'm going to try to start a stick fighting study group based on these methods. 

as to why: well, initially i just tried to train in whatever works.  some of it was eastern, some of it was western.  i'm also a bit of a history nerd, so later i became more interested in preserving the lesser-known historical styles.

on a somewhat philosophical note, i think that america suffers from a tremendous shortage of culture.  tmz has replaced political debate, modern folk art is almost unknown, & physical culture consists of watching the game while sucking down wings & beer at your local sports bar.  it's enormously unfulfilling.  

since i'm concerned about this, my options as i saw them consisted of 1) co-opting another culture (as is often done with eastern, native american, or others) or, 2) trying to help connect to past culture, & make it relevent to the present.  i think it's important to preserve these elements of my own heratige, so i am choosing #2.

jf


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## Langenschwert (Oct 2, 2008)

Hi Jarrod,

Here's the link for the Rocky Mountain Swordplay guild:

http://www.chicagoswordplayguild.com/c/theGuild/classesRSG.asp

While obviously dedicated to HES, they might know some people who are into la canne and whatnot.  At least you'll be able to learn some Fiore if you have the time. 

Best regards,

-Mark


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## jarrod (Oct 2, 2008)

thanks! i actually found them via google just last night.  i intend to visit them when i get out there.

jf


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## CDKJudoka (Dec 23, 2008)

Wrestling and US Army Combatives, but I was always into KMAs primarily.

And Russians systems? Should they be considered Western, when they themselves refer to Europeans and Americans a Westerners and themselves as Eastern People? That and considering most of their land is in Asia.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 13, 2009)

Mainly western fencing (epee, foil), general swordplay, mostly with either historical or SCA practitioners who wanted to get together and trade techniques with a kendo guy, and archery (I'm not all that good) with a small exposure to boxing and wrestling, and of course, good old fashioned walking stick. Done some friendly bare knuckle when I was young and stupid, but that hardly qualifies as a martial art. 

That and I'm pretty mean with a 6 and a 3 D-cell flashlight! The six and the three; workman's daisho, hehe.

I've thought about actually working up a curriculum for some of it, but with taekwondo and kendo, it would be very eclectic.

Daniel


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## lklawson (Mar 16, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Done some friendly bare knuckle when I was young and stupid, but that hardly qualifies as a martial art.


Depends on your perspective. As late as the early 20th C., Pugilism was considered "The Manly Art of Self Defense." In fact, many old boxing manuals (starting with the Broughton era rules and going all the way up through the Marquis') use "self defense" in the title or sub-title.

If you're just saying that you don't, personally, feel like you put enough time or study in for it to be, for you, a Martial Art, well, that's understandable. We all got limited time. However, historically, Boxing was DEFINITELY considered part and pacel of the "Arts Martial."



> That and I'm pretty mean with a 6 and a 3 D-cell flashlight! The six and the three; workman's daisho, hehe.
> 
> I've thought about actually working up a curriculum for some of it, but with taekwondo and kendo, it would be very eclectic.
> 
> Daniel


Depends on what you want and/or what your students want. Many students are quite interested in self defense applications with flashlights. If you got info you think they want, why not put together some material?  Please feel encouraged to do so.

On that note, these "tactical flashlights" are becoming quite popular (I've been carying one for years) and are just the right size for Kopo/yawari techniques. Might consider that too.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Mar 16, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> Wrestling and US Army Combatives, but I was always into KMAs primarily.


Speaking of Combatives, did you see that I repubed the '44 edition of Cosnecks manual?  Free download, as usual.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 16, 2009)

lklawson said:


> Depends on your perspective. As late as the early 20th C., Pugilism was considered "The Manly Art of Self Defense." In fact, many old boxing manuals (starting with the Broughton era rules and going all the way up through the Marquis') use "self defense" in the title or sub-title.


Completely argee.



lklawson said:


> If you're just saying that you don't, personally, feel like you put enough time or study in for it to be, for you, a Martial Art, well, that's understandable. We all got limited time.


Yes, that is what I meant.




lklawson said:


> Depends on what you want and/or what your students want. Many students are quite interested in self defense applications with flashlights. If you got info you think they want, why not put together some material? Please feel encouraged to do so.
> 
> On that note, these "tactical flashlights" are becoming quite popular (I've been carying one for years) and are just the right size for Kopo/yawari techniques. Might consider that too.


I appreciate the feedback! 

Still working out what students want ballanced with what I'm qualified to teach.  Over the weekend, a friend with an historical fencing background and I got together about maybe putting together some informal lessons for interested parties and seeing where it leads.

Daniel


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## matt_mcg (Mar 16, 2009)

I train in savate, and savate is the only thing I train in regularly these days. 

I've done a couple of years of fencing, a  couple of canne sessions [training measured in hours rather than months], and some western boxing in the past.


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## arnisador (Mar 16, 2009)

lklawson said:


> On that note, these "tactical flashlights" are becoming quite popular



Enough so that the Wall Street Journal took notice of them from a business standpoint in a 2006 article. A year earlier they had written an article on the tactical knives business. (The articles themselves are now subscription-only.) I find it amazing that the WSJ thought they were worth covering--what I thought of as very much niche products! Can an article on selling rattan sticks for fun and profit be far behind?


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## Raynac (Mar 16, 2009)

I practice To-shin Do... I've been told thats a western art.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 25, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Enough so that the Wall Street Journal took notice of them from a business standpoint in a 2006 article. A year earlier they had written an article on the tactical knives business. (The articles themselves are now subscription-only.) I find it amazing that the WSJ thought they were worth covering--what I thought of as very much niche products! Can an article on selling rattan sticks for fun and profit be far behind?


And as for tactical flashlights....

http://www.flashlightcool.com/Magli...ell-Flashlight/6-D-Cell-Flashlight-Black.html

Daniel


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## doc D (Aug 4, 2009)

Hello All ! 
   I have for years , studied many martial arts, most of them of Asian roots although I have trained military  hand to hand and had a background in western marksmanship /shooting, boxing,Wild West whip cracking, knife throwing/ tomahawk throwing and the most basic of fencing. My forte is Pencak silat and Kali.
    I am American but have bloodlines that go back to Scotland and Ireland and I have a great respect and interest in the land and people from where my ancestors came and, as a martial artist, I have an abundant enthusiasm and reverence for the martial culture that has existed in those regions. So ,I now find myself exploring the Western arts in hopes of connecting with the Martial Culture of Europe . It is my hope, ultimately ,to explore the specific sword arts of Scotland and Ireland. I am starting with  with the Schola Saint George in Lewisville ,Texas and also doing some Long Sword work with a gentleman in Arlington ,Texas ,who I found on Meetup .com. The Former teaches material based on work set forth by Fiore del Libere and the Latter teaches Longsword de los Aurelios. 
   I love the edged weapon and blade work I've studied from my Asian arts ( Pencak Silat ,Kali, Krabi Krabong, Kenjutsu, etc) but the Western work is quite fun and a refreshing approach to the subject of edged weapons.

   Today I just got a copy of "Reclaiming the Blade" on DVD....I hope to review it later .

With Respect,
Doc D


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## lklawson (Aug 5, 2009)

doc D said:


> So ,I now find myself exploring the Western arts in hopes of connecting with the Martial Culture of Europe . It is my hope, ultimately ,to explore the specific sword arts of Scotland and Ireland.


Check out Chris Thompson's work on Scottish basket-hilted broadsword (aka "Highland Broadsword") and the Broadsword League.

Not much recorded about specific "Irish" sword arts.  Most researchers (but not all) are fairly confident that the Irish sword systems were cut from the same cloth as those of the contemporary Scottish and English.  

There has been a renaissance of sorts for all these cultural martial systems.  For the Irish, it's been a renaissance of stick fighting, wrestling, and boxing.  Scottish seems to be more broadsword, dagger, and wrestling.  English seems to be more various sword systems, and boxing/wrestling.

This are gross over-generalizations, of course, but that seems to be the general trend.

And that's without getting into other European cultural systems.  For instance Jogo do pau is really getting a lot of attention these days.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## PalmTree (Sep 10, 2009)

For about 2 years now I've practiced the Afro-Brazilian art of Capoeira Contemporânea.


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## Em MacIntosh (Sep 11, 2009)

I've been going to savate class on wed just to keep in the game.  Been doing it for almost a year now.  I find parallels for almost everything (in savate) in kickboxing.


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## Tensei85 (Sep 13, 2009)

Did a stint of Boxing, Wrestling & Krav Maga. Not as much as I would like but I could definitely appreciate & take things away from a lot of the training I received.


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## shihansmurf (Oct 14, 2009)

I boxed and trained in Han Foo Wa(Bill Shaw's Freestyle Martial Arts) which I think of as very westernized.

There is a definite argument that the Kenpo I trained in could be considered a western art, with as far removed from its Asian roots as Mr. Parker managed to get it.

Mark


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## FierySquidFace (Nov 4, 2009)

Millitary CQC on Saturdays. :2pistols: Also, I didn't actually plan on taking it at first, but my school offers Ghost Dog Apache Knife Fighting course (under the direction of Ralph Redfeather). :duel: Awesome stuff, though somewhat of a departure from the other Arts taught at my school.


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## Carol (Nov 4, 2009)

What is the training like?   I've heard of Apache knife fighting but have no idea how they actually go about it.


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## Hudson69 (Nov 4, 2009)

My main system falls under "Other" with it being Police Combatives (Instructor).  But I also put down western archery which I use to hunt large hoofed animals found throughout Colorado.  I would like to look into Krav.  I have a LEO manual for the system but have only browsed it.


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## FierySquidFace (Nov 4, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> What is the training like? I've heard of Apache knife fighting but have no idea how they actually go about it.


 
I'll let you know after my first actual class on fri.


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## FierySquidFace (Nov 10, 2009)

the Apache knife fighting stuff was... not what i expected. lol. it was a cross between Apache knife, and Japanese tantojutsu... very interesting. very cool.


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## grydth (Nov 27, 2009)

I added the American Cane System as of last Summer, though actually that has some Oriental roots. A good workout and some imaginative uses for a common walking aid.


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## Darrin Cook (Nov 27, 2009)

My training is in the Filipino martial arts, but I decided to pursue an American path, to make the art American and contemporary, which for me means:




I speak 	English. I use English terms. Although I am fluent in Spanish, and 	know all of the Tagalog and Visayan terms, I have decided for the 	sake of clarity and accessibility to label everything in English.
I use American 	weapons. I have been in the Philippines and have seen people wearing 	machetes as casually as baseball caps, but here in the US machetes 	are a rarity. The same can be said for rattan sticks. I train with a 	baseball bat, and my techniques are intended to be implemented  with 	a baseball bat. Someone else earlier in this thread mentioned 	flashlights -a heavy case flashlight is an example of a realistic, 	Western weapon.
I wear American 	clothes. No gi's. I wear tennis shoes. I don't go barefooted.
I believe in 	the scientific method. I'm tired of the old, 2,000 years ago, in 	the mist-enshrouded Himalayas, Sifu/Sensei/Guru Immortal ... A 	technique is valid because it makes sense and because it can be 	proved to work, not because someone did it this way 200 years ago.
How many 	Filipino stylists have considered the implications of taking an art 	founded in a humid tropical climate and applying it in Michigan 	during the winter?


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## ap Oweyn (Nov 30, 2009)

I've practiced a bit of boxing and about a year of Western fencing.  Neither extensively.  And both to inform my practice of FMA.


Stuart


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 5, 2010)

Never practiced it, but I would assume that Keysi is a WMA, given that its promoters claim that it began in Spain in the fifties.  

Daniel


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## Slav (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm taking savate classes. It's not as much as I would like to do but little by little I'm making progress. Great sport! I was impressed to box using not only hands but feet as well.


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## Gruenewald (Jul 17, 2010)

Extremely proficient in Olympic & Greco-Roman Wrestling right now, looking into Krav Maga, Fencing, Boxing, Savate and Systema.


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## Diabolik (Nov 16, 2010)

I practise Scandinavian Defendo. Basically it is mostly Bill Wolfe´s Modern Defendo, but for some reason the finnish insturctors who learned the system from Wolfe parted ways with him - so they started to teach under a new name. Well, not really completely western art (is there such thing anyway...) as there are some hapkido/ju-jutsu and a bit of muay thai too. On the other hand,one could say it is boxing/greco-roman wrestling filled with mean, filthy and dirty tricks that make it quite ideal for a real self-defence situation.

I would also like to do Savate some day, but unfortunately there are only couple of clubs in this whole country and they are way too far from where I live. Also would like to have the opportunity to someday train in old-style (bareknuckle) boxing but that´s probably non-existent in this country... Catch wrestling would be great too - there´s no single official club that does it really but I know that at least a few individuals are really very skillfull and knowledgeable at it actually...There´s no "mass interest" for it though, because when you talk about wrestling in Finland 99,9% of people think the greco-roman style automatically (probably don´t even know that other styles exist  and brazilian jiu-jitsu (which is a cool, I have trained it a bit actually) is then again the thing what everyone associates with groundwork/grappling.


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## lklawson (Nov 17, 2010)

Diabolik said:


> Well, not really completely western art (is there such thing anyway...)


That depends on how you define it.  But under the most common understanding, yes, there is such a thing.  A good number of them, in fact.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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