# ok...I'm confused



## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2007)

OK this is going to likely be a silly question and I truly mean no disrespect, but being a CMA guy with zero experience in kenpo/kempo I have seen multiple posts about Kenpo/Kempo as well as various spelling and since I am not sure which one to use I am using both Kenpo and Kempo. 

But I have see it having in it; Taijiquan, Kung fu kata (which I have to say Kung Fu [Chinese] with Kata [Japanese] bugs me  sorry), Shaolin, and now Wing Chun and I have seen it called Okinawan, Chinese, American and Japanese. I have seen Parker Kenpo/Kempo, Tracy Kenpo/Kempo, American Kenpo/Kempo, Shaolin Kenpo/Kempo (Shaolin [Chinese] Kenpo/Kempo [not Chinese] again this one bugs me) and just plain Kenpo/Kempo and a few others as well.

If I may ask what is Kenpo/Kempo? 

Because my understanding of it previously was it had its origins in China but it was not Chinese, it started in Okinawa and moved into Japan and was later in Hawaii where Ed Parker was and somehow Tracy gets involved.

Again I mean no disrespect I am just very confused. I use to spar a guy that was American Kenpo/Kempo and I will say he was one heck of a fighter and very skilled but that was years ago and I have no idea where he is now so I cant ask him.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 21, 2007)

Kenpo or Kempo is an art with origins in China and Japan, with some parts later developing in Hawaii and the US. All share simularities, yet are organized differently with different focuses and different forms. Some will have adapted other cultural arts into their mix, some will add or subtract forms, concepts and techniques as their developer or even the current instructor sees fit, within his or her own current understanding of the arts.

The best way to understand a particular branch, is to follow it's lineage path back to the sources....a confusing task at best.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Kenpo or Kempo is an art with origins in China and Japan, with some parts later developing in Hawaii and the US. All share simularities, yet are organized differently with different focuses and different forms. Some will have adapted other cultural arts into their mix, some will add or subtract forms, concepts and techniques as their developer or even the current instructor sees fit, within his or her own current understanding of the arts.


 
Thanks Bob



Bob Hubbard said:


> The best way to understand a particular branch, is to follow it's lineage path back to the sources....a confusing task at best.


 
So you are saying in order for me to be less confused  I need to be more confused   :eye-popping: :uhyeah:


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 21, 2007)

Yes.  Only whn you grasp the pebble from the hand do you realize the secret is to bang the rocks together.  



To understand the differences/simularities between Tracy and other kenpos you need to also look at Parker and see where they diverged, then where Chow and Parker diverged, etc.  Also look at who was hanging out with who and when to see where outside info was meshed.   At one point in time, Parker, Bruce Lee and Remy Presas were interacting and sharing sttuff, which had some effect on each of them, which is also part of the why there are some simularities between Parkers, Lee's and Presas's arts. (I did the same tech doing EPAK, JKD and Modern Arnis. 3 different names, all slightly different but recognizable to anyone doing those arts.)

Now, for more depth, those who've really researched the 'where did what come from stuff" will have to chime in, and possible correct or expand on my comments.  My kenpo knowledge is limited.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Yes. Only whn you grasp the pebble from the hand do you realize the secret is to bang the rocks together.


 
Banging rocks together as we speak  



Bob Hubbard said:


> To understand the differences/simularities between Tracy and other kenpos you need to also look at Parker and see where they diverged, then where Chow and Parker diverged, etc. Also look at who was hanging out with who and when to see where outside info was meshed. At one point in time, Parker, Bruce Lee and Remy Presas were interacting and sharing sttuff, which had some effect on each of them, which is also part of the why there are some simularities between Parkers, Lee's and Presas's arts. (I did the same tech doing EPAK, JKD and Modern Arnis. 3 different names, all slightly different but recognizable to anyone doing those arts.)
> 
> Now, for more depth, those who've really researched the 'where did what come from stuff" will have to chime in, and possible correct or expand on my comments. My kenpo knowledge is limited.


 
Thanks again Bob


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## Blindside (Dec 21, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> But I have see it having in it; Taijiquan, Kung fu kata (which I have to say Kung Fu [Chinese] with Kata [Japanese] bugs me &#8211; sorry), Shaolin, and now Wing Chun and I have seen it called Okinawan, Chinese, American and Japanese. I have seen Parker Kenpo/Kempo, Tracy Kenpo/Kempo, American Kenpo/Kempo, Shaolin Kenpo/Kempo (Shaolin [Chinese] Kenpo/Kempo [not Chinese] again this one bugs me) and just plain Kenpo/Kempo and a few others as well.


 
I can see why you are confused.  Quite frankly the different kenpo lineages can't agree on their history prior to the 1940s or so.  So if we can't agree, it isn't really surprising that outsiders can't figure it out since every kenpo lineage says something different.

Most kenpo lineages trace their line back to Professor Chow (Parker's teacher), prior to him everything becomes very controversial.

Some people say that Chow's teacher, Mitose didn't know or show much, therefore the buck stops at Chow.  Some people say that Chow's father had some Chinese style, but there is much disagreement on this.  Everyone agrees Professor Chow was a badass fighter.  

Other people say that Mitose was a master instructor and his history is important.  Some people say that Mitose's background was Okinawan karate or the unarmed portion of a Japanese samurai family art.  For some people, the fact that Mitose was a conman and a general scumbag, lends doubt to whatever he claimed, and generally they don't want someone like THAT in their lineage anyway.

Some people say that because Mr. Parker changed so much of what he initially learned, the lineage really stops with him.   Mr. Parker had inputs from several "Chinese" sources after he reached California, and that is obvious from the early iterations of the "Chinese Kenpo."  You see borrow forms from various Chinese arts, prior to this Kenpo wasn't really taught through a kata/form curricullum, the only form taught was Naihanchi.  The Tracy's kenpo system offshoot began here and they continued to borrow forms from other systems, which is why you see forms like Tiger and Crane, Tam Tui, etc.  Parker eventually wound up dropping those borrow forms in favor of a fairly extensive technical curricullum of sets and forms, and a conceptual framework to put them into.  At this point, Kenpo doesn't really have an obvious "flavor" of its eastern origin.  Its inputs can be described as something like.... something Okinawan (maybe), something Japanese (maybe), several Chinese lineages (definately), and then technically reformatted for a western mindset.   

Clear as mud? 

Lamont


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## Flying Crane (Dec 21, 2007)

OK, I'll give it to ya as briefly as I can.

The Mitose clan is a Japanese family that ended up in Hawaii.  They brought their family fighting art with them.  If you trace the art back far enough, it probably has Chinese roots, but it was thoroughly Japanese for at least several generations.  I really do not know the details about this.

The Mitoses passed on the art, and one student of James Mitose in Hawaii, was William Chow.  Mr. Chow was an acknowledged powerhouse in kenpo, even tho he was only about 5'3" or so.  Anyway, starting in about the late 1940s or early 1950s or so, Ed Parker studied under Mr. Chow.  Mr. Parker brought what he learned to the Mainland, first teaching at Brigham Young university where he was a student, then teaching in California.  Among his earliest California students were the Tracy brothers, Al, Jim, and Will.  They began training with him in around 1957.  I believe Will actually spent time training with Chow, and got his shodan from Chow, not Parker.

OVer time, Mr. Parker studied under various other people, including some kung fu people like Ark Yuey Wong, in LA.  These experiences lead him to begin a long series of changes to his art and how he was teaching it.  I can only assume that Mr. Parker felt these changes would improve the art, but the Tracys felt otherwise.  They did not agree with the changes, and gradually split from Mr. Parker altogether and kept their version of Kenpo closer to what Mr. Parker taught them in the 1950s and early 1960s.  At various times the split included a fair amount of hostility, but it is my understanding that by the time Mr. P died in 1990, they were on fairly amicable terms once again.  

So in the mean time, thru the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s, Mr. P continued to make changes and revisions and whatnot.  Many people studied with him during these times, and their particular version of kenpo reflects when they trained with him.  Few people actually stayed with him from the early days until the end.  Out of this era came "Chinese Kenpo", which was I guess a nod to the Chinese influences that Mr. P was bringing into his art.

The later versions of his art, stemming from the 1970s onward, have become known collectively as Ed Parker's American Kenpo, or EPAK for short.  I personally don't feel this is an accurate description because it assumes a large deal of unity and standardization from school to school, and I think that's not true.  From what I have read in the forums, it seems those who were senior students at the end of MR. Parker's life often disagree about how things ought to be done, so I think there is really very little unity, even tho the curriculum may be fairly similar, at least on a superficial level.  I prefer to simply look at the whole picture as different lineages that trace their roots back to Mr. Parker.  This includes earlier splits like Tracy kenpo, and others like Larry Tatum, Richard Planas, Joe Palanzo, Frank Trejo, and our very own Ron "DOC" Chapel.  At least that's how I see things.  But at any rate, if you see a reference to EPAK, it refers to a lineage that probably started with Mr. Parker no earlier than about the late 1960s or early 1970s.

Getting away from Mr. Parker, there are other lineages that trace their roots back to William Chow without going thru Ed Parker.  These include Kajukenbo, which was started in part by Adriano and Joe Emperado.  They were students of William Chow in about the 1940s, and were senior to Ed Parker.  Another would be Kara-Ho Kenpo, under the leadership of a gentleman in LA whose name I cannot remember.  Some of his students post here, and I think he even shows up once in a while.  He was a long-time student of William Chow.

Still other lineages trace back to James Mitose, without going thru William Chow.  I believe they go by the name Kosho-Ryu Kenpo.  I think it translates as "Young Pine Tree" or something, which is what the Mitose clan was calling their art.  As far as I understand anyway, which I could be wrong.

Prior to James Mitose, it's hard to make any solid lineage tracing.  I think the records earlier than that are just not clear.

However, there are other arts that also use the term "Kenpo" or more often "Kempo", some of which are related to the Mitose/Chow/Parker lineages, and some of which are not.  An East Coast lineage thru Nick Cerio exists, and I think people like Fred Villari and Steve Damascos come from this lineage.  I believe Cerio studied under some people and had some experience directly with William Chow and Ed Parker, but I don't think he was ever a long-time student of either.  But I think this lineages use the term Shaolin Kempo or something like that.  Another Shaolin Kemp Karate system exists on the West Coast under the leadership of Ralph Castro, who was a student of William Chow and somewhat of Ed Parker.  But it is a separate system from the East Coast group.

There are also unrelated systems that simply use the term Kempo.  Examples are Okinawan Kempo and Shorinji Kempo.  The term Kempo is actually fairly generic, being a Japanese translation if Chinese Kuen Fa, meaning roughly "law of the fist".  During the time when the Japanese karateka were changing the written character from "kara" meaning "Chinese", to a different written character "kara" meaning "empty", for karate - empty hand, as a way of distancing the Japanese arts from any Chinese influences as a movement of Japanese national pride, some arts simply kept the term Kenpo as a nod of acknowledgement to the Chinese origins of their arts.  So they use the term, but there is probably no actual connection to the kenpo found in the US thru the Mitose/Chow/Parker lineages.

So there it is, as concisely as I can give it to ya.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2007)

Blindside said:


> I can see why you are confused. Quite frankly the different kenpo lineages can't agree on their history prior to the 1940s or so. So if we can't agree, it isn't really surprising that outsiders can't figure it out since every kenpo lineage says something different.
> 
> Most kenpo lineages trace their line back to Professor Chow (Parker's teacher), prior to him everything becomes very controversial.
> 
> ...


 
Actually between what you and Bob have posted, clear as mud us an improvement from were I was a little while ago, Thanks


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> OK, I'll give it to ya as briefly as I can.
> 
> The Mitose clan is a Japanese family that ended up in Hawaii. They brought their family fighting art with them. If you trace the art back far enough, it probably has Chinese roots, but it was thoroughly Japanese for at least several generations. I really do not know the details about this.
> 
> ...


 
WOW!

Thank You, that helped, I am still a bit confused but things are getting more clear.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 21, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> WOW!
> 
> Thank You, that helped, I am still a bit confused but things are getting more clear.


 
throw it at me, i'll see if I can shed some light on any specific questions.


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## Brother John (Dec 21, 2007)

Kempo is a Japanese term for "Chuan-Fa" once it has been transplanted away from China. It's actually a generic term for martial systems outside of China that can show a direct pedigree back to a Chinese "Chuan-Fa" system. 
There is no "ONE" Kempo OR Kenpo, though using the "N" does narrow down it's scope quite a bit. (James Mitose, I'm told, changed the M to an N in order to show a distinction for his system. He also chose to use the title "Karate" for his system, mostly so it could be recognized as a striking martial art.)

There are systems of "Okinawan Karate" that designate themselves as "Kempo". Plenty. 

In Ke'N'po...it's usually derived from one or another variation from the lineage of Ke'M'po that Mitose & Chow introduced in the Polynesian Islands in the 1st half of the 20th century. Mr. Mitose and Mr. Chow's students were (generally) very prolific. Several of their students went on to found "Kempo" or "Kenpo" systems themselves. One of the most predominant was Mr. Edmund K. Parker Sr., who founded the "American Kenpo Karate" system. FROM Mr. Parker LOTS of "Kenpo" systems deviated or at least you could say that there are lots of different 'flavors' of his creation. There's also still a solid/stead stream of what he created which is still faithfully being transmitted.

There's also Shorinji Ryu Kempo. This system was created by Doshin So of Japan after having studied Chuan-Fa in China.
I suggest going to Wikipedia.com and looking up both Kempo and Kenpo.
I think it'd be helpful to you.

Trust me, I understand the confusion.

Your Brother
John


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2007)

Brother John said:


> Kempo is a Japanese term for "Chuan-Fa" once it has been transplanted away from China. It's actually a generic term for martial systems outside of China that can show a direct pedigree back to a Chinese "Chuan-Fa" system.
> There is no "ONE" Kempo OR Kenpo, though using the "N" does narrow down it's scope quite a bit. (James Mitose, I'm told, changed the M to an N in order to show a distinction for his system. He also chose to use the title "Karate" for his system, mostly so it could be recognized as a striking martial art.)
> 
> There are systems of "Okinawan Karate" that designate themselves as "Kempo". Plenty.
> ...


 
Thank you, so the N vs the M makes a difference than. 

But I keep seeing Chuan fa which to be honest from a CMA pov it is not making things easier as far as origin so I see what everyone is talking about

Quan fa (Pinyin) or chüan fa (Wade-Giles) basically meaning "fist principles" is a generic term used for open handed Chinese martial arts, basically old time Wushu or what is now called Kung Fu done without weapons so based on the statement is comes from Quan Fa is in and of itself pretty generic and confusing to this old CMA guy.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 21, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Quan fa (Pinyin) or chüan fa (Wade-Giles) basically meaning "fist principles" is a generic term used for open handed Chinese martial arts, basically old time Wushu or what is now called Kung Fu done without weapons so based on the statement is comes from Quan Fa is in and of itself pretty generic and confusing to this old CMA guy.


 

Yup.  I think the use of the term is a nod of acknowledgement to the Chinese origins, but not in a specific sort of way.  I think at this point it is impossible to track it down to a specific Chinese system.  Keep in mind, the systems that call themselves kenpo had or have a pretty long establishment in Japan and have become thoroughly Japanese during that time.  Use of the term Kempo or Kenpo recognizes the Chinese origins, but from a distance.


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## Rabu (Dec 21, 2007)

Xue Sheng,

I spent years tyring to talk to some of the right people to know whats going on in Kem/npo.  I gave up and started studying Chinese arts instead.  Much less vague in the CMA.  Think about that statement for a moment, let your brain explode, then follow the bread crumbs by going here:

Seinenkai.com

It came to the US through Hawaii.

You might be able to get some decent information there.

Best of luck.

Rob


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2007)

Rabu said:


> Much less vague in the CMA. Think about that statement for a moment, let your brain explode,


 
Being a long time CMA guy......:eye-popping: KABOOOM!!!    DAMN!!!

I am mainly curious about it from the posts that I have been reading on MT and I was getting more than a bit confused. I am finding that it is not uncommon to be confused and I can live with that, but form the responses I have received I am less confused than when I started.

Thanks


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## Brother John (Dec 21, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Thank you, so the N vs the M makes a difference than.
> 
> But I keep seeing Chuan fa which to be honest from a CMA pov it is not making things easier as far as origin so I see what everyone is talking about
> 
> Quan fa (Pinyin) or chüan fa (Wade-Giles) basically meaning "fist principles" is a generic term used for open handed Chinese martial arts, basically old time Wushu or what is now called Kung Fu done without weapons so based on the statement is comes from Quan Fa is in and of itself pretty generic and confusing to this old CMA guy.



I totally understand where you're coming from!!!!
Thing is, I believe that what EXACT CMA or "Quan Fa" system these various "Kempo" and "Kenpo" systems trace back too........is pretty much lost in obscurity. The word "Kempo"/"Kenpo" also means "fist law" and is a direct translation of Chuan-Fa or Quan-Fa. 

Something else to consider: MOST of the modern versions of Ke'N'po derive from the teachings of Kwai Sun Chow on Honalulu. According to what ammounts to "oral tradition" his "Kem/npo" was influenced greatly by CMA. (Don't know which style, still) His student, Edmund Parker Sr. re-organized what he gained from his instructor (Mr. Chow), revamped a LOT (or most) of it and went to some CMA masters during this process for instruction/help/inspiration...etc.  Jimmy Wing Woo, Grandmaster Ark Yueh Wong and others. So even when Mr. Parker totally overhauled the system in the creation and innovation of "American Kenpo Karate" (((Which for a time in it's formative years went by the name "Chinese Kenpo Karate", a term which some still adhere too..........and no doubt has added to your confusion))). MANY ((myself, a kenpo stylist, included)) Consider the movements/motions and methods of American Kenpo Karate to be MUCH MUCH more like the circular & linear synthesis of many Kung-Fu systems than the "Karate" of the Okinawan Islands..........and Definitely NOT like the later renditions of Karate on mainland Japan. (Typified by long strides and single strokes, possibly due to the strong influence of KenDo and the fact that many of it's highest ranking karateka were ALSO high ranking Kendoka)

Just something more to think about.

Your Brother
John


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## Ray (Dec 21, 2007)

The word "karate" was originally used the kanji meaning "chinese hands" because the chinese art was practiced in okinawa.  The kanji meaning "sky-hand" or "empty-hand" was adopted in the early 1900s in Japan once the Japanese and Okinawin masters decided they had changed it significantly to suit their needs.

The art that is "kenpo karate" is "law of the fist and chinese hands."  The chinese pronounciation would be Chu'an fa san shou.


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## KENPOJOE (Dec 21, 2007)

Ray said:


> The word "karate" was originally used the kanji meaning "chinese hands" because the chinese art was practiced in okinawa. The kanji meaning "sky-hand" or "empty-hand" was adopted in the early 1900s in Japan once the Japanese and Okinawin masters decided they had changed it significantly to suit their needs.
> 
> The art that is "kenpo karate" is "law of the fist and chinese hands." The chinese pronounciation would be Chu'an fa san shou.


 
Hi folks!
The actual mandarin pronunciation would be "Chuan Fa Tang Shou"
"law of the fist china hand"
This page might be of some help
http://members.aol.com/kenpojoe/history.html
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2007)

Brother John said:


> I totally understand where you're coming from!!!!
> Thing is, I believe that what EXACT CMA or "Quan Fa" system these various "Kempo" and "Kenpo" systems trace back too........is pretty much lost in obscurity. The word "Kempo"/"Kenpo" also means "fist law" and is a direct translation of Chuan-Fa or Quan-Fa.
> 
> Something else to consider: MOST of the modern versions of Ke'N'po derive from the teachings of Kwai Sun Chow on Honalulu. According to what ammounts to "oral tradition" his "Kem/npo" was influenced greatly by CMA. (Don't know which style, still) His student, Edmund Parker Sr. re-organized what he gained from his instructor (Mr. Chow), revamped a LOT (or most) of it and went to some CMA masters during this process for instruction/help/inspiration...etc. Jimmy Wing Woo, Grandmaster Ark Yueh Wong and others. So even when Mr. Parker totally overhauled the system in the creation and innovation of "American Kenpo Karate" (((Which for a time in it's formative years went by the name "Chinese Kenpo Karate", a term which some still adhere too..........and no doubt has added to your confusion))). MANY ((myself, a kenpo stylist, included)) Consider the movements/motions and methods of American Kenpo Karate to be MUCH MUCH more like the circular & linear synthesis of many Kung-Fu systems than the "Karate" of the Okinawan Islands..........and Definitely NOT like the later renditions of Karate on mainland Japan. (Typified by long strides and single strokes, possibly due to the strong influence of KenDo and the fact that many of it's highest ranking karateka were ALSO high ranking Kendoka)
> ...


 
That makes more sense as to where the Chinese comes from then, movement


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2007)

Ray said:


> The word "karate" was originally used the kanji meaning "chinese hands" because the chinese art was practiced in okinawa. The kanji meaning "sky-hand" or "empty-hand" was adopted in the early 1900s in Japan once the Japanese and Okinawin masters decided they had changed it significantly to suit their needs.
> 
> The art that is "kenpo karate" is "law of the fist and chinese hands." The chinese pronounciation would be Chu'an fa san shou.



Thank you

I would like to see the actual Kanji, I can't figure it out but my wife could

As to "Quan Fa San Shou" that means "Empty hand free fighting" in Mandarin



KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> The actual mandarin pronunciation would be "Chuan Fa Tang Shou"
> "law of the fist china hand"
> This page might be of some help
> ...


 
Again I need to see the Kanji because Chuan fa Tan Shou does not tranlate to Law of the fist China hand.

In Mandarin

"Law of the fist" is pretty much "Quan Fa" and "China hand" would be "Zhong guo Zhang" and all together it is more likely "Zhong Guo Quan Fa" if you want "Law of the fist China hand".

As to Tang, without the characters or the tone I am clueless. 

And Thank You very much for the link


NOTE:

Also I should add all of my translations are in Pinyin and Mandarin in Wade-Giles it could be a little different and I would need to look that up to figure it out and if you are talking Cantonese I have no idea


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## still learning (Dec 21, 2007)

Hello, Just an opinion here....today it does not matter which spelling it use.

No one really knows which one was use first "Kempo or Kenpo"....lost in translations over time....TODAY BOTH ARE USE for the same meaning....

It was written down the way is was prounce...hence the different spellings. ...Kem... on Ken  almost sound the same...each of the past instructors had accents of their own langauge...so tranlations were written down by those who written what they heard.

If you were there? .. part of the class would have written several forms of the Kempo/Kenpo...if they were recording the class.

Which is the right one? ....NO one really knows.....Both stand for the same thing!

Aloha......Kan-po or Kam-po  or does the "e" is correct too?


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## Perpetual White Belt (Dec 22, 2007)

Just another example of the name game.  Okinawa Kenpo under Nakamura Sensei was divided into Ryukyu Hon Kenpo under Odo Sensei and Ryukyu Kempo under Oyata Sensei.


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## Ray (Dec 22, 2007)

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> The actual mandarin pronunciation would be "Chuan Fa Tang Shou"
> "law of the fist china hand"
> This page might be of some help
> http://members.aol.com/kenpojoe/history.html



Mr. Rebelo is absolutely correct.  I was typing from memory and not from my collected reference material.  "Tang" is a reference to the Tang dynasty (meaning "Chinese").

The old and new kanji can be found on wikipedia.  I have another reference at home that tells tells about the "meeting of the masters" who got together and changed the kanji.  It contains "prettier" kanji.  If I find it, I'll post the link to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 22, 2007)

&#31354;&#25163; Kong Shou = Empty Hand

&#31354;&#25163;&#36947;  Kong Shou Dao = Empty Hand Way  Which is Chinese for Karate

I am getting less confused about the origin and more confused about the name and that is likely due to my knowing a lot of Chinese history, my meager language skills in Mandarin and the fact my wife is native Chinese and she also speaks Japanese

Tang does not mean Chinese, at least not to a Chinese person. Tang is a reference to a Dynasty Tang Dynasty 618 AD - 907 AD (http://library.thinkquest.org/12255/library/dynasty/tang.html) which if you look at the Characters for Tang Dynasty they translate into English as Tang. 

However if Tang is important to Kenpo then it could be a reference to origin as to when it came from China. This does make some sense because that is when Shaolin appears in writting for the first time in the early 700s.


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## Ray (Dec 22, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> &#31354;&#25163; Kong Shou = Empty Hand
> 
> &#31354;&#25163;&#36947;  Kong Shou Dao = Empty Hand Way  Which is Chinese for Karate
> 
> ...


Nevertheless, the term karate meaning "empty hand" was not used until the early 1900's and was brought about by Japanese and Okinawan "masters" in a meeting in Japan.  Previous to that it was "Tang Hand" with a Japanese pronunciation of "karate."

The meaning of the "kenpo karate" kanji has been translated for me by several native speakers.  All have said that a literal translation would not make sense; each has identified the "Tang" kanji as a reference to "Chinese."  One highly educated young man from china said although the literal translation would be "fist method Chinese hand" he would use the phrase  "Chinese  Gung Fu."

Unfortunately good fighters are not necessarily always highly literate.  

Whatever the meanings were in the past I don't know.  English words have been known to change meanings as usages have changed.


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## Brother John (Dec 22, 2007)

Ray said:


> Nevertheless, the term karate meaning "empty hand" was not used until the early 1900's and was brought about by Japanese and Okinawan "masters" in a meeting in Japan. Previous to that it was "Tang Hand" with a Japanese pronunciation of "karate."
> 
> The meaning of the "kenpo karate" kanji has been translated for me by several native speakers. All have said that a literal translation would not make sense; each has identified the "Tang" kanji as a reference to "Chinese." One highly educated young man from china said although the literal translation would be "fist method Chinese hand" he would use the phrase "Chinese Gung Fu."


 
THe thing is, when doing historical research like this, we have to take many things into account. For instance, this is a trend that's crossed SEVERAL cultures and we are now tracking it backward. So we take our understanding of it and look back to the culture we got it from, but we do so with particularly western eyes and biases. The Okinawan's were the ones that decided to brand their systems as "Kara-te". Originally it was simply called "Te", meaning 'fist'....sort of like saying "Boxing". So if Kara meant "Chinese"...then Kara-te, in it's original derivation would indeed be "Chinese boxing". 

Okinawa was (and is) a VERY interesting culture. They had much in common with Japan, even MORE in common with China...with whom they enjoyed open trade and exchange of culture for Centuries! Their language is a strange amalgum between these two.....with a great deal that is particular to the unique demands of living on their rocky little chain of islands and drawing their living from the sea and trade with their neighbors.

The "Classics" were a HUGE influence on education in the Ryukyu Island archipelago......of which "Okinawa" is simply the biggest and most identifiable island. The "Classics" being the Confusian, Buddhist and Daoist doctrines & writings. The ruling class of Okinawa placed GREAT emphasis on a classical education. The time of Okinawa's greatest development and time of peace was during the Tang dynasty, in which the course of cultural cross-pollination from China to Okinawa and relative peace with Japan (who was dealing more with resolving it's own internal Feudal strife and therefore had better things to do that sail down and harras the Ryukyu's, who were being supported by the powerful Tang navy/army) FLOWED. Economically and financially, things were GREAT! The Kings of the Ryukyu islands identified with the Tang dynasty as though it were their own dynasty. So much so that the very term "Tang" was synonymous with "China".  See where I'm going with this???? The cultural mix, of course, included Te masters studying Chuan-Fa from Buddist monks that came to preach/serve in the islands and Te masters traveling to study or trade in China. The higher classes in Okinawa would hire tutors and instructors from China, who were often Buddist or Taoist priests.....who took their physical training as another branch of their instruction.

See where I'm taking this?
Okinawa spent CENTURIES revering China, especially from the Tang dynasty. To them the term "Tang" was a direct connotation to what they saw as the best of what they recieved from China. It's thought that during the strife that ended in the downfall of the Tang dynasty that the Ryukyu islands were both a source of back up fighters (mostly mercenary) and a place of refuge for scholars and priests who'd been ardent supporters of the Tang dynasty. 

So....it was a natural outgrowth of this that the term "Tang", which in the peculiar dialect of the Okinawan upper-class, was pronounced "Kara"....would be appended to the highest quality martial arts that was one of the cultural vestges of marriage between the Ryukyu and "Tang" traditions.     Thus "Karate". 

In later years/decades, when SOME of the masters (relatively few really, mostly stemming from Funakoshi sensei and Miyagi Sensei) were seeking to get Karate accepted in mainland Japan, they were advised by the Butokukai, the martial arts governing board of Japan, that the exact kanji for "kara" denoted China and was therefore likely to NOT be well accepted amongst the meijei restoration affected Japanese Nationalist Party, which pretty much called the shots at the time. I believe it was Dr. Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, that suggested to Funakoshi sensei that he change the Kanji for "Tang" to a homonym Kanji, that's still pronounced "Kara", but means 'empty'. Thus we hear today that "Karate is the art of the empty hand". Then Dr. Kano suggested that Funakoshi adopt the suffix "Do" to denote that he too accepted the essence of the Meijei restoration philosophy....just like Ju-do and Ken-do and Kyu-do and Aiki-do already had. SO .... we end up with "Karate-do". 

So really, when we look back to try to find roots, we need to realize that things have to be looked at through multiple cultural lenses and that words and ideas have had years to gestate and fold....so that now, we end up with:
Kenpo Karate-do = Chuan-Fa Tang-hand way

Hope I made sense....

Your Brother
John

PS: I've never heard the term "Shou" used in this mix, but then Mr. Rebelo has more experience in the arts than I do. You'd have to ask him about that then.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 22, 2007)

It made perfect sense, I would have no idea as to what the Japanese used to refer to China at the time and it would make sense if they used Tang since they were there during the Tang Dynasty. All I am saying is that from a Chinese perspective Tang means Tang not China if you look at the Chinese character for it. Also China to a Chinese speaker is Zhong Guo not Tang. Just as to Japanese speakers it is Karate and to Chinese speakers it is Kong Shou Dao. And that is what you get if you show the Kanji to a native Chinese speaker. 

And I am also saying if they did refer to China as Tang then the origin of Kenpo/Kempo could be Shaolin

.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 22, 2007)

Ray said:


> The meaning of the "kenpo karate" kanji has been translated for me by several native speakers. All have said that a literal translation would not make sense; each has identified the "Tang" kanji as a reference to "Chinese." One highly educated young man from china said although the literal translation would be "fist method Chinese hand" he would use the phrase "Chinese Gung Fu."


 
I am not doubting this the kanji as translated by a native Chinese speaker is not Tang that is all. I have no idea what a native Japanese speaker would tranlate it as. The kanji can be exactly the same as the Chinese Chracter, and in many cases is, but they will not be translated the same.


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## Ray (Dec 22, 2007)

Brother John said:


> THe thing is, when doing historical research like this, we have to take many things into account.
> 
> See where I'm going with this????
> 
> ...


John, I've got one word for you: succinct.

I see where you're going with this: into the nether-regions surrounding irrelavancy.  My Kenpo Karate is not Japanese Karate-do.  Do means way, Po means way.

I don't need to ask Mr. Rebelo about "hand" being "shou" in Chinese.  There are several on-line guides; I've also visited libraries that have things called "books" (like English-Chinese dictionaries).  I've also had the word pronounced by native Chinese speakers (notice the "s" denoting plural).  You can refer to: http://zhongwen.com/
Look up "hand" in english,  you'll see the same character as pronounced "te" in Japanese with its Chinese pronunciaction "shou."  There is another on-line resource that will give an audio file too.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 22, 2007)

Written Chinese is complicated depending on when something was written can make a big difference.

Example my first CMA sifu went to my wife (both born and raised in China) to double check his translation of an old Qigong test. My first CMA sifu is older than my wife but many qigong texts are old and my first sifu knows simplified Chinese no ancient and he had messed up the translation. My wife is trained in simplified and a few older due to her profession and she straightened it out for him, His translation was based on his knowledge of simplified and a few mistranslated words really messed things up.

We are talking likely something form the Tang Dynasty so if there was any Chinese written about it many of the Native Chinese today could not read it properly. However form the Japanese perspective things get much easier, or at least that is my understanding of Japanese, older text are more easily translated by modern Japanese.

And although there may be other words for them in Chinese

Zhang means palm 
Shou means hand

But a tone change can change the meaning

The characters for Tang Dynasty are here, 
http://library.thinkquest.org/12255/library/dynasty/tang.html
I would be interested in hearing what a Japanese person would read that as and translate it as


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## Brother John (Dec 22, 2007)

Ray said:


> John, I've got one word for you: succinct.
> 
> I see where you're going with this: into the nether-regions surrounding irrelavancy. My Kenpo Karate is not Japanese Karate-do. Do means way, Po means way.
> 
> ...


 
Hey Ray-
Thanks for the useful link.

I'm sorry you found what I had to say as coming from 





> the nether-regions surrounding irrelavancy


Dang it! I hate being irrelavent.

I had thought that the purpose of this thread was to shed more light on the name of the systems that fall under the headings of Kenpo, Kempo ...etc.
The words "Kenpo" and "Kempo" aren't that hard to figure out. The issue under scrutiny lately has been the term "Karate" and especially why they should use the word or kanji "Kara" for "Tang" when they

*1st:* I understand that you study/train in American Kenpo and it's not Japanese Karate-Do. Same here. But it is from the Japanese Karate influence that Mr. Mitose chose to use the term "Karate" at all, from there to Chow, from Chow to Mr. Parker, from Mr. Parker........on down the line to you and me. That's why the "Kenpo Creed" says "I come to you with only Karate, my empty hands". So it didn't come from the Okinawan streams of Karate, otherwise it'd be "I come to you with only Karate, my Chinese hands". SO.....if someone wants to track down the term "Kenpo Karate" they need to take this route to determine how it's being used and where they got it from.

*2nd:* Xue Sheng didn't understand why they used the word/Kanji "Tang" when implying the term "Chinese". What I offered is easily verifiable in ....what did you call it???..........oh yeah....Libraries. (why the nasty tone??)) The Okinawan's venerated China and ALL the more so for the growth they had while deeply associated with them during the prosperous "Tang" dynasty. So they refer to the products of that age (commonly) as "Tang". 

It's sort of like the architecture and decor that was popularized during the Elizabethan age. You'd not refer to a famous painting as "An English Elizabethan painting".....just "Elizabethan"....and you'd still know what they were talking about.  OR: maybe a little closer to home in this context: a "Ming Vase"......you don't need to say it's a "Chinese Ming Vase"....if you say "Ming" people already know the where and when that you are refering too. If someone presents you with an authenticated "Ming Vase" you don't then say "Oh yes? What area of the world was it produced in? Hungary?"
Sam Ting.

As for the use of "Shou", I'm NOT saying it's wrong. I've simply never heard it applied to the systems of Kem/npo. Furthermore: I'm not saying that YOU (Ray) need to confer with Mr. Rebelo. I had thought that Mr. Rebelo had introduced the term into this conversation...and since it's something I simply do NOT know about...I suggested people debate or question him about how he used it and why. If YOU were the one, and I'm mistaken, then maybe they should discuss it with you.

I'm not taking up a position contrary to you, just offering forward what I know.

Thanks

I'll strive to be more "relavent" in the future.

Your Brother
John


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## Ray (Dec 22, 2007)

Brother John said:


> *1st:* I understand that you study/train in American Kenpo and it's not Japanese Karate-Do. Same here. But it is from the Japanese Karate influence that Mr. Mitose chose to use the term "Karate" at all, from there to Chow, from Chow to Mr. Parker, from Mr. Parker........on down the line to you and me. That's why the "Kenpo Creed" says "I come to you with only Karate, my empty hands". So it didn't come from the Okinawan streams of Karate, otherwise it'd be "I come to you with only Karate, my Chinese hands". SO.....if someone wants to track down the term "Kenpo Karate" they need to take this route to determine how it's being used and where they got it from.


2) Mitose chose the term Kenpo Ju Jitsu. 2) You are telling me that you knew the motiviation and the mind of Parker when he penned the creed and what exactly he meant to convey when he wrote it? 3) Chow (his father was chinese) used the term Kenpo Karate. Whether he was conversant in Chinese and/or Japanese I don't know. It has been said that he was no scholar but definately a great fighter. 4) The kenpo creed and the actual history of kenpo are two completely different things...I understand that Parker also used the term Chinese Kenpo at one time to describe his art; and the characters that were used on the kenpo crest is T'ang Hands, not Empty Hands.



Brother John said:


> What I offered is easily verifiable in ....what did you call it???..........oh yeah....Libraries. (why the nasty tone??))...
> 
> As for the use of "Shou", I'm NOT saying it's wrong. I've simply never heard it applied to the systems of Kem/npo.


 Then look at the characters used, look them up, see what the pronunciation is in Chinese and then you will know. It is better to do that first, rather than to lead people astray.



Brother John said:


> Furthermore: I'm not saying that YOU (Ray) need to confer with Mr. Rebelo. I had thought that Mr. Rebelo had introduced the term into this conversation...and since it's something I simply do NOT know about...I suggested people debate or question him about how he used it and why. If YOU were the one, and I'm mistaken, then maybe they should discuss it with you.


yes, Mr. R introduced the correct term into the conversation. Even so, the characters exist in Parker's kenpo; they are easily looked up. Mr. R is correct about what they mean and it is independantly verifiable.


Brother John said:


> I'll strive to be more "relavent" in the future.


I look forward to it.


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## Brother John (Dec 22, 2007)

Ray said:


> 2) Mitose chose the term Kenpo Ju Jitsu. 2) You are telling me that you knew the motiviation and the mind of Parker when he penned the creed and what exactly he meant to convey when he wrote it? 3) Chow (his father was chinese) used the term Kenpo Karate. Whether he was conversant in Chinese and/or Japanese I don't know. It has been said that he was no scholar but definately a great fighter. 4) The kenpo creed and the actual history of kenpo are two completely different things...I understand that Parker also used the term Chinese Kenpo at one time to describe his art; and the characters that were used on the kenpo crest is T'ang Hands, not Empty Hands.
> 
> Then look at the characters used, look them up, see what the pronunciation is in Chinese and then you will know. It is better to do that first, rather than to lead people astray.
> 
> ...


 
I think you're correct, Mitose did use jujitsu, Chow lumped it under the term "Karate".


> 2) You are telling me that you knew the motiviation and the mind of Parker when he penned the creed and what exactly he meant to convey when he wrote it?


Are YOU telling me that _you do???_
....gimme a break.....
I said nothing of the sort. I merely was saying that the term "Karate" has meant both empty hand and Chinese hand and it's my belief, due to the wording of the creed, that it's the "Empty Hand" that he was implying. At the very least he accepted that underlying philosophy.

This is a very strange little hill you've chosen to die on, but you're free to whatever hill you're worthy of. 

I don't care to look up the term you suggest, because I simply _do not care_ enough to give a rip. I was offering my thoughts and conjecture on the subject, not "Fight" over some dogma.

If it makes you're coco warmer to be rude and snotty about what character was and wasn't implied in what history, GOOD FOR YOU RAY. I've not "lead anyone astray". *That's silly*. I've put forth my thoughts on a thing. You don't like them. Ok.      deal with it. 

I haven't a CLUE what Iv'e done to make you all hostile, this is rediculous.
I've interacted with you on other threads just fine w/out you getting silly like this.

enjoy yourself Ray.

Your Brother
John


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## Flying Crane (Dec 22, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> And I am also saying if they did refer to China as Tang then the origin of Kenpo/Kempo could be Shaolin
> 
> .


 
I have seen Kenpo history presented in a way as to suggest it has lineage to Shaolin.  Personally, if there is any truth at all in this suggestion, I believe it is absolutely impossible to document it, so it remains in the realm of pure spectulation.

Second, from the Shaolin I have seen regarding how it stylistically moves and the forms-based methodology, I would say the two arts are pretty different.  It seems to me that the basic structure of how the art is practiced and passed down to subsequent generations is just rather different.  This leads me to be further suspicious of any claims of a shaolin legacy in kenpo.  If it exists, I think it cannot be established and shall remain lost in time.  I am content to accept the existance of a Chinese history in kenpo, but any specifics in that history have been lost.

In the early days of Mr. Parker's time in California, he had some acquaintances in Chinese arts like James Wing Woo.  These people did teach Mr. Parker some material that was included in the kenpo of that era, and included forms like Tiger/Crane which is Hung Gar in origin, as well as a form that has come to be known as "panther", but I don't know specifically what Chinese art it may have come from.  It has a fairly hung gar "flavor", but I don't really know if that is where it came from.  Others, like Tam Tui which is common to many Chinese arts in some aspect or another.  Mr. Parker eventually dropped this material in his later versions of his art, in favor of forms that were created specifically around the Self Defense methods that make up the base of kenpo curriculum.

In contrast, the Tracy system kept these Chinese forms, and adopted a number of others into the system that we practice.  But I do not believe any of this Chinese material was part of what Mr. Chow was teaching to Mr. Parker back in Hawaii.  I believe all of this material was brought into the system beginning when Mr. Parker came to the mainland and began working with people like James Wing Woo.

I seem to recall DOC suggesting in a different thread a while back that William Chow had been teaching forms in Hawaii, but I think they may have been Japanese or Okinawan kata, and not Chinese.  I could be mistaken about this, however.  At any rate, none of those made it into what Mr. Parker was teaching on the mainland.


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## Ray (Dec 22, 2007)

Brother John said:


> This is a very strange little hill you've chosen to die on...


Why would you threaten me this way?


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## SL4Drew (Dec 22, 2007)

Brother John said:


> ****1st:* I understand that you study/train in American Kenpo and it's not Japanese Karate-Do. Same here. But it is from the Japanese Karate influence that Mr. Mitose chose to use the term "Karate" at all, from there to Chow, from Chow to Mr. Parker, from Mr. Parker........on down the line to you and me. That's why the "Kenpo Creed" says "I come to you with only Karate, my empty hands". So it didn't come from the Okinawan streams of Karate, otherwise it'd be "I come to you with only Karate, my Chinese hands". SO.....if someone wants to track down the term "Kenpo Karate" they need to take this route to determine how it's being used and where they got it from. ***
> Your Brother
> John


 
I know that Doc has a different perspective on this. When the creed was created, the word 'karate' was inserted to associate Kenpo with the popular and widely know art of the day--Karate. It was not necessarily meant as synonym for 'empty hands.' So, the word karate is superfluous, and he has removed it from his course books.

It is also my understanding that Okazaki's Danzan-Ryu had a tremendous early influence on Mr. Parker, and it seems on Chow as well, or at least many of Chow's early students. But, at least with Mr. Parker, that influence diminished as he was exposed to the mother Chinese arts.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 22, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> I have seen Kenpo history presented in a way as to suggest it has lineage to Shaolin. Personally, if there is any truth at all in this suggestion, I believe it is absolutely impossible to document it, so it remains in the realm of pure spectulation.
> 
> Second, from the Shaolin I have seen regarding how it stylistically moves and the forms-based methodology, I would say the two arts are pretty different. It seems to me that the basic structure of how the art is practiced and passed down to subsequent generations is just rather different. This leads me to be further suspicious of any claims of a shaolin legacy in kenpo. If it exists, I think it cannot be established and shall remain lost in time. I am content to accept the existance of a Chinese history in kenpo, but any specifics in that history have been lost.
> 
> ...


 
As to the Tang dynasty connection, it does not have to be Shaolin, I just referenced it because that is when the first written mention of Shaolin appears, there were other martial arts during the tang and it was in general, I believe, pretty militaristic, they had lots of competition then. I will have to see what I can find

Thanks for al the great info, I am going to go back through this thread tomorrow and see if I can get a better picture.


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## Brother John (Dec 23, 2007)

Ray said:


> Why would you threaten me this way?



You can't be serious, can you?

IF you feel threatened, do the right thing and report me to the mods who will take the needed actions.
if not, and you're trying to be funny, it failed.

Enough side-track here into Ray's confusion...
on with the discussion of the roots of terms in KeM/Npo.

Your Brother
John


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 23, 2007)

Tang Dynasty 618-907 A.D

By the time of the Tang Dynasty there were or had been other Martial arts as well as Shaolin

There were combat systems that included Strikes, Throws, Joint locks and pressure point attacks and Jiao li became a sport during Qin 221-207BC which later becomes Shaiojiao

hard" and "soft" techniques are recorded in the annals of the Spring and Autumn Period (722 BC481 BC)

During the the Former Han (206 BCE8 CE), there was a distinction between no-holds-barred weaponless fighting, which it calls shoubo (&#25163;&#25615, and sports, known as juélì or jiaolì (&#35282;&#21147

Wrestling was documented in the Sh&#464; Jì, The Records of the Grand Historian, written by Sima Qian dating from 109 BC to 91 BC.

During the the Tang Dynasty sword dances were written about in poems by Li Bai. 

Taosits were already practicing Dao Yin

Also within Shaolin there were differnt styles such as Long Fist and Cannon fist

And this is just to name a few, I am still looking


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## tellner (Dec 23, 2007)

If there are pretensions, and Lord knows we martial artists are a pretentious lot, it almost always goes like this:


Ta Mo teaches the Shaolin monks
Shaolin is great. Shaolin is cool. Shaolin is the Sun Source of martial arts.
Ninjas (sic) are pretty cool, too.
Vigorous handwaving, offering of Kool Aid, cloud shaped drawings.
My teacher's teacher's teacher inherits the Real Shaolin Traditions.
The Keeper's of the Flame are Billy Bob's School of Kempo Ryu Bujutsu Ninja Fu Fighting Concepts.
I am a First Degree Black Sash under Sensei Sifu Grandmaster Billy Bob.
As Dread Tsathoggua is my witness the first time I used "Billy Bob's School of Kempo Ryu Bujutsu Ninja Fu" (back before USENET turned to slime) I got an angry email. One of Billy Bob's students was upset that I added "Ninja Fu" to the end of the Art's name. 

I checked.

There really was such a school.

Human beings are strange.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 2, 2008)

tellner said:


> Ta Mo teaches the Shaolin monks



Aaaaah maybe. Likely no or teaches them what?



tellner said:


> Shaolin is great. Shaolin is cool. Shaolin is the Sun Source of martial arts.



Well of course, you mean you DOUBT THIS :uhyeah:

Obviously that is not true and there are historical records to prove it



tellner said:


> Ninjas (sic) are pretty cool, too.



Well DUH, of course Ninja are cool 
But sadly there appears to be no Ninja link here :uhyeah:



tellner said:


> Vigorous handwaving, offering of Kool Aid, cloud shaped drawings.



Lets leave David Koresh and the Branch Davidians out of this, they have little or nothing to do with Chinese martial arts, kenpo/kempo and thats my story and I am sticking to it :supcool:



tellner said:


> My teacher's teacher's teacher inherits the Real Shaolin Traditions.



Doubtful, unless your teachers teacher is a VERY old Chinese guy



tellner said:


> The Keeper's of the Flame are Billy Bob's School of Kempo Ryu Bujutsu Ninja Fu Fighting Concepts.
> I am a First Degree Black Sash under Sensei Sifu Grandmaster Billy Bob



HEY!! :eye-popping: now lets just leave Billy Bob out of this OK :rpo: 

So far the Historical Chinese origin of Kenpo/Kempo appears to be the Tang Dynasty which coincidentally is the same dynasty that Shaolin is actually written about. But considering the closed nature of Shaolin at the time it does not seem likely to me that Kempo/Kenpo is from Shaolin


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## Matt (Jan 3, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Thank you
> 
> I would like to see the actual Kanji, I can't figure it out but my wife could



Scroll down here for the karate / karate homonym characters. It's actually an Aikido site, but there's an aside about that interesting change the karate people made. 



> Again I need to see the Kanji because Chuan fa Tan Shou does not tranlate to Law of the fist China hand.
> 
> In Mandarin
> 
> "Law of the fist" is pretty much "Quan Fa" and "China hand" would be "Zhong guo Zhang" and all together it is more likely "Zhong Guo Quan Fa" if you want "Law of the fist China hand".


Maybe this would help. I think the problem is that although the four characters would be translated quán f&#462; táng sh&#466;u in Mandarin, it's essentially a strictly Japanese idiom, and would be more commonly written some other way in Chinese. 


> As to Tang, without the characters or the tone I am clueless.
> 
> And Thank You very much for the link



No problemo. Pardon me while I hijack this thread. I finally have some time on my hands again. 

Matt


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 3, 2008)

Matt said:


> Scroll down here for the karate / karate homonym characters. It's actually an Aikido site, but there's an aside about that interesting change the karate people made.
> 
> 
> Maybe this would help. I think the problem is that although the four characters would be translated quán f&#462; táng sh&#466;u in Mandarin, it's essentially a strictly Japanese idiom, and would be more commonly written some other way in Chinese.
> ...


 
Thank You, this is what  I need


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## kidswarrior (Apr 6, 2008)

Back to your original question (before the chinese character discussion ). Try Professor John Bishop's home page and see this chart: lineage

It helped me and I _do _kempo. But got separated from my teacher years ago, so never got this all straight until seeing Prof Bishop's work. BTW, if you compare this with Flying Crane's prose explanation, I think you'll find them very close. But it's late and I haven't read the whole thread that carefully.


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