# Anatomy of the Knee



## Lisa

All too often we as MAist sustain injuries to our knees and often we will post here about what we had torn, dislocated, etc.

I found this website that explains the function and anatomy of the knee complete with pictures so that when one of us explains our injuries the rest of us can perhaps understand more about what happened to the joint.  I am hoping that it will help us better understand the seriousness of our injuries and how to help ourselves heal quicker and smarter.

Knee Joint Anatomy and Function


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## mantis

thanks for sharing
i really did not want to "visualize" what's inside my knee... now i am going to be more paranoid haha
thanks


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## Gemini

Excellent info, Lisa. Maybe you should consider a sticky.


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## Shodan

Cool site- thanks!


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## Henderson

Good stuff, Lisa!  I second the idea of making this a "Sticky".


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## Lisa

Stuck!


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## TigerWoman

It doesn't talk about the LCL and the MCL, the lateral ligaments on the side of the knee.  I know when I stretch mine out too much and they become loose, my knee doesn't track right.  I wear a velcro brace with metal inserts on the sides to aid the support of these two ligaments so it tracks right. My problem is due to very little or no cartilage left.

Here is a site describing the side ligaments of the knee:
http://www.orthoassociates.com/knee_lig.htm 
TW


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## Robert Lee

My right knee is not to good. I blame part of that to the old days of kicking alot of air. That is a bad problem in many M/A schools every where. kicking hard in the air ruins knees. Most instructors lean onto how they were taught. and not being smart. Harder kicks should be done on bags and shield where softer kicks can be performed in the air. No resistance to a hard kick in the air and so it over extends your knees weakening tendons ligaments and extra wear on the joint it self.  Same goes for hard punches in the air the elbow and shoulder becomes a problem.  Training smarter joints last longer


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## shesulsa

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> My right knee is not to good. I blame part of that to the old days of kicking alot of air. That is a bad problem in many M/A schools every where. kicking hard in the air ruins knees. Most instructors lean onto how they were taught. and not being smart. Harder kicks should be done on bags and shield where softer kicks can be performed in the air. No resistance to a hard kick in the air and so it over extends your knees weakening tendons ligaments and extra wear on the joint it self.  Same goes for hard punches in the air the elbow and shoulder becomes a problem.  Training smarter joints last longer



Word!

I've seen some Korean schools have their students stand on one leg and kick the air repeatedly with the other 50-100 times without stopping as though it were good training.  This is an INCREDIBLE strain on the knee and should never be done.


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## Tarot

Oh man is this good timing or what?!   Totally useful, thanks for posting Lisa!



> *Robert Lee said:*
> 
> My right knee is not to good. I blame part of that to the old days of kicking alot of air. That is a bad problem in many M/A schools every where. kicking hard in the air ruins knees. Most instructors lean onto how they were taught. and not being smart. Harder kicks should be done on bags and shield where softer kicks can be performed in the air. No resistance to a hard kick in the air and so it over extends your knees weakening tendons ligaments and extra wear on the joint it self. Same goes for hard punches in the air the elbow and shoulder becomes a problem. Training smarter joints last longer


I second this.  It's one of the reasons I left my  previous TKD school.  We did a lot of roundhouse kicks (and kicks in general) to the air and not on a bag.  The knee I just blew out, was the one that would bug me after doing those kicks.  Coincidence?  I doubt it.


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## Lisa

Tarot said:
			
		

> Oh man is this good timing or what?!   Totally useful, thanks for posting Lisa!



You are welcome Tarot!  Truth be told you were the inspiration for my thread!  I hope you heal quickly!


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## TigerWoman

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Word!
> 
> I've seen some Korean schools have their students stand on one leg and kick the air repeatedly with the other 50-100 times without stopping as though it were good training.  This is an INCREDIBLE strain on the knee and should never be done.



Oh, we do that all the time, regular practice.  Actually that is no problem to the knee unless you are jumping  or hopping it. In fact, we do that one leg, front, round, side, axe--100 times each, then put it down to change legs.  These are not done hard but fast-- in the air, to a focus paddle, or a bag as a target.  What IS bad is when you do fast spin heels in the air with not being able to brake it, so the knee hyperextends. Can't see anyone doing 50 of these at one time though, as ten can get you too dizzy to go on.

What is the problem is when an instructor asks a student, especially an over 40's student to hop on one leg and repeatedly kick across the room for 10-15 minutes.  That was an exercise today which I refused to do and have for the last three years as that is all your weight coming down on one knee heavy.  Good way to grind up cartilage especially if your knee isn't tracking right. TW


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## Andrew Green

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> My right knee is not to good. I blame part of that to the old days of kicking alot of air. That is a bad problem in many M/A schools every where. kicking hard in the air ruins knees. Most instructors lean onto how they were taught. and not being smart. Harder kicks should be done on bags and shield where softer kicks can be performed in the air. No resistance to a hard kick in the air and so it over extends your knees weakening tendons ligaments and extra wear on the joint it self. Same goes for hard punches in the air the elbow and shoulder becomes a problem. Training smarter joints last longer



Yup, snapping punches and kicks hard into nothing is something elbows and knees where not designed to handle.  The sudden switch in direction at a fast speed is too much for the joint.

The other common problem is poor pivoting, so the suppoting leg doesn't pivot and it should which tears at the ligaments on the sides of knees.  Indoor soccer and basketball are also very bad for this as you have to change direction quickly, foot doesn't turn but the hips do.


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## shesulsa

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> Oh, we do that all the time, regular practice.  Actually that is no problem to the knee unless you are jumping  or hopping it. In fact, we do that one leg, front, round, side, axe--100 times each, then put it down to change legs.
> What IS bad is when you do spin heels in the air with not being able to brake it, so the knee hyperextends. Can't see anyone doing 50 of these at one time though, as ten can get you too dizzy to go on.
> 
> What is the problem is when an instructor asks a student, especially an over 40's student to hop on one leg and repeatedly kick across the room for 10-15 minutes.  That was an exercise today which I refused to do and have for the last three years as that is all your weight coming down on one knee heavy.  Good way to grind up cartilage especially if your knee isn't tracking right. TW



These are not good training exercises.  As explained to me by my orthopedic surgeons, the structure of the knee joint is not designed to support the weight of the lower leg, especially in movement for that length of time.  The weight of the lower leg and the foot (and anything that's on the foot, e.g. shoe/ankle weights) will pull the Tibial and fibial heads even just a fraction of a milimeter, widening the groove (so to speak) making the track the hinge operates on wider.  Hence, a knee will not track well is this wide groove, ligaments will relax and elongate and the problem becomes compounded.

I suppose a person has to ask themselves - why would you train this way?  Is there ANY situation where you have to kick with only one leg repeatedly for this long a period of time?  The point of diminished returns occurs far earlier when training goes longer than need be.

We used to do over 100 jumping jacks - sometimes up to 300.  But then ... what's the point?  If you have good cardiovascular fitness which is attainable through training methods easier and safer on the joints, then your heart and lungs have learned how to breathe and function during long-term exertion. There just is no need to injure the joints in exchange for "fitness" or bragging rights.

Bragging rights never once bought me as much as a cuppa.


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## TigerWoman

Actually my orthopod gave me his blessing as long as the supporting knee isn't twisting and is stationary even better. But that was regarding my cartilage problems or lack thereof. While I haven't found having any trouble doing 100 waist high round, side, front or axe,  Hitting a harder target like a bag, faster, is where I have knee damage and I don't have to do many, as the knee joint takes the shock. What my doc also said was that it is not a good idea to add weight on the ankle and kick fast and we never do that in high repetition. It would be tough then to do a 100 round kicks with added weight and not smart. Its okay doing a low number of kicks slowly though with weight.  I  did find trouble with doing a -high- sidekick with weight with the knee. Too much weight and it takes the calves out of the equation and there is where that separation occurs.  But then my comments were about just normal easy kicking.

We build up slowly to condition the whole leg structure, quads, hamstrings, calves, glutes, etc. to not only take the weight of the lower leg but kick~it is not just hanging there. BTW, this is not a cardio exercise persay, it is more strength training unless you are a newbie then it may be both. A newbie white belt might do 25 on a leg for a couple of months, then go to 35.  A black belt class would do hundreds.  I have no problem lifting my leg say for 100 round kick, no wear and tear on my knee from that. What it is hard on is the working muscles contracting.  These exercises are what make TKDins so strong in ~kicking~ and after doing these for nearly ten years, they made my legs alot stronger.  No, holding a leg while you are kicking is not the problem when you train it.  TW


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## shesulsa

I suppose our orthopods disagree as do you and I on this matter.


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## TigerWoman

Yeah, I guess if you put ten doctors in the room and ask them separately they would all disagree or be in separate camps.  However, I've lived my art and done the kicking and know how my knees feel after I lead kickboxing which is pretty much the same thing, hundreds of kicks.  I do a hundred fast while the newbies do a third of the amount.  I guess you got to be there. TW


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## shesulsa

We both practice Korean kicking arts.  I've had surgery on both knees but have no tracking problems - we do not stand and do 100 kicks on one leg waist height and above, nor do I have any tracking problems whatsoever in my knees.  Sometimes the proof is in the pudding ... or the meniscus as could be said.


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## TigerWoman

My problems are largely due to twenty years of running on asphalt. I had a meniscal tear of the cartilage when I did a tornado round kick as a blue belt and my body went one way and the knee the other.  I also had another one when I had to do a 360 stationery jump from knife hand back stance to the same stance as a 1st dan.  Because of no meniscus left, my knee does not track right and three of the quads tend to overpower the inner VM muscle. So I do exercise for that.  I partly do kickboxing, repetitive kicks, to strengthen my ligaments and to keep my overall muscle strength up because I don't jump anymore.  So the proof in the pudding is that my knees are in good shape, better than if I just did self defense and no kicking of any substance.   I don't do anything that does make ligaments relax and elongate or become too loose to keep the patella from tracking.  Actually I don't use my knee braces while kickboxing as I want the knee to work. And I don't need it then either. And my orthopod, a runner, said he wished he could do TKD so keep doing it because it keeps arthritis at bay, but stop the jumping.  So that's what I did.  So saying that was the reason not to do repetitive kicks is actually the reason to do them. TW


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## Robert Lee

If you are kicking air with non power kicking But speed and controled kicks where you do not over flex the knee Yes you may not injure it. But power kicks in the air over extend it and make it weaker and weaker over time. I dont know of any past instructors  From years past that did not develop knees problems. As back when I started training that was 34 years ago. Most schools punched and kicked hard in the open air. It was not smart. I have known several that had problems later with both knees. It took me about 7 years to have to have surgury on my knee. And since then have trained much smarter no more full power kicks in the air. And do not instruct useing any power kicking other then shield and bag work. AND have had less knee problems  and NO students with knee injurys from kicking.


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## TigerWoman

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> If you are kicking air with non power kicking But speed and controled kicks where you do not over flex the knee Yes you may not injure it. But power kicks in the air over extend it and make it weaker and weaker over time. I dont know of any past instructors  From years past that did not develop knees problems. As back when I started training that was 34 years ago. Most schools punched and kicked hard in the open air. It was not smart. I have known several that had problems later with both knees. It took me about 7 years to have to have surgury on my knee. And since then have trained much smarter no more full power kicks in the air. And do not instruct useing any power kicking other then shield and bag work. AND have had less knee problems  and NO students with knee injurys from kicking.



I agree with your statement. Repetitive kicking for strength training is not power kicking.  We do those on the bags or shields too. Our instructor does make black belts demonstrate kicks in the air for testing so therefore they have to practice it that way. Not good.  I stopped doing those too a long time ago.  Too risky to do a jump 360 spin heel, round, side, etc. in the air over and over. After ten of those, it is risking another joint dislocation.  TW


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## White Fox

Yikes my knees are feeling very tender just reading thsi stuff :waah:


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## buyu

hey guys just a newbie to this site but lookin for answers big time ive dislocated my knee more than fifteen times (thats just the big real sore ones) i first did when i was 16 im now 27 and practise ninjutsu im scared of an operation cause your defenseless when your drugged up (probably y i dont sleep much) does any one know any strengthening exercises its thursday now and i just popped it out again on tuesday doing a hip throw (on the smallest person in the dojo )man it was painfull any way any tips out there its my inner side that my knee falls to, any help would be appreciated 
thanks heaps 

ps sorry bout my writting school wasnt as important as trainin


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## centerline

Lisa.... thank you it is on my favotites... Martial artist / skier / mover 
Thank You......


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## qi-tah

I've just had an arthroscopy done on my left knee - i sustained damage to my patella and MFC cartilage. The injury actually took a couple of months to get to critical point - it grumbled along for ages. During this time i was finding in my classes (Ba gua zhang) that the lower hip walking really settled it down - i'd purposely do more circle wakling in between more demanding exercises to stop it hurting. Unsure why this worked, perhaps by engaging the quadraceps muscles and stabilising the knee that way? Anyway, i'd recommend Ba gua circle walking (proper lower hip walking, not just regular walking!) to anyone with dodgy knees


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## Nobody

I had my knee go reverse on me an man you talk about being a cry baby after that i have swore never to ever end up sick again.  Was at work when it happened accident that they end up having to pay for there failure to put up a mirror so one could see around the corner but i tried to stop this pallet weighing about 3000lbs.  Then my knee went this hurts this ain't happening.


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## Karatedrifter7

Thanks


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## Decker

qi-tah said:


> Anyway, i'd recommend Ba gua circle walking (proper lower hip walking, not just regular walking!) to anyone with dodgy knees



Qi-tah, how do walk using said method? I've got some problematic knees too. They're not as serious as some other cases, but they click a lot.

Thanks.


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## xJOHNx

The Cruciate ligaments are not meant to be used as stabilisers on their own for the bones. Cruciate ligaments contain a high degree of nerves sensitive to movement. Therefor they shoot info back to the spine and as a reflex your muscles tighten. To prevent extraordinal movement of the bones.

Good knees need strong muscles. Not only quadriceps, but also hamstrings. As they work together as a couple. First quadriceps contracts, followed by milliseconds by the hamstrings. So that the quadriceps doesn't pull the knee in overextension. 

So squats are good for martial artists. 
Just passing the info


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## Xue Sheng

HOORAY!!!

Now I know I tore the Medial Meniscus and the Articular cartilage so based on this thread 

:lisafault:


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## Indie12

Knees and Backs tend to be major problems. Unfortunately for me I have major lower back pain!! Guess being involved in Martial Arts and EMS doesn't help huh?


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## python3d

Thanks!!!


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## kelly45

what a good publication, very useful!


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## dvcochran

Lisa said:


> All too often we as MAist sustain injuries to our knees and often we will post here about what we had torn, dislocated, etc.
> 
> I found this website that explains the function and anatomy of the knee complete with pictures so that when one of us explains our injuries the rest of us can perhaps understand more about what happened to the joint.  I am hoping that it will help us better understand the seriousness of our injuries and how to help ourselves heal quicker and smarter.
> 
> Knee Joint Anatomy and Function


Appears to be a bad link. "404 page not found".


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## Ryan_

dvcochran said:


> Appears to be a bad link. "404 page not found".


Yeah, but the OP was over 10 years ago, so the page has probably been deleted or moved since then.


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## jesscold88

thanks for the information, it seems to me the knee is something that hurts me too often) now I will not worry so much


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