# USAT and the special promotion



## terryl965 (Feb 18, 2009)

Here is a link to an articla about that special Dan promotion they just had, I am so lucky I did not do this how legit can it be when they took application the night before, It was akkk about the money also I was told nobody failed and they all skipped Dan as well. the joke is the KKW and the USAT are just in it for the money case and point.


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## dortiz (Feb 18, 2009)

Not sure about that Terry. While it does say they took applicants late I was someone trying to make a standby flight...on the other hand my paperwork had been in and signed off back home on time. I would guess if folks who found out late, especially folks out of the traditional fold (those that especially may hold a rank but not Kukkiwon) they may figure go for the event and try to make application. Sounds like that was a USTKD decision. It also reads like the Kukkiwon did this so as to not give the locals the power to promote and to make sure it was controlled to their standard. I missed it so I dont know. If there is an article that states the Kukkiwon felt those last minute folks were all cash and could not pass thats different. I read that several skip Dans were not fully honored as the time period was too short. That sounds like they were being good about checking.
I hoped you had gone or someone who could tell us first hand. I would hope if that person deserved it they could still speak up even if they thought others did not. 
Dave O.
p.s. I never thought it was a big money thing because they did not charge any extra fees at all. If anything they charged the true fees which were hundreds less than folks have been paying teachers here.


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## dortiz (Feb 18, 2009)

More blurbs on other pages:
Many testers stayed up all night practicing their poomsae and showed great passion. George Bleil (5th Dan, Ohio) stated, "I have tested from 3rd Dan to 5th Dan before. I have trained for the past 35 years. This time I am testing for the 7th Dan from 5th Dan. I wish people didn't see this Special Testing any differently from normal Dan Testing. No matter what, if you don't have the skills necessary to pass, you will fail. There is no benefit just because you test for Dan skipping". 

Kukkiwon held seminars from February 13th, for the Special Dan Testing. Education was free of charge, and the focus was to teach first class poomsae movements. Jong Bum Park, who was in charge of education, stated "Throw away old ways. Focus and concentrate. Special Dan Testing is the hardest testing. If you are going to do it half-heartedly, go back home. Brace yourself mentally for the testing".

I will admit I am defending it because I hope it works. Besides me I know a lot of folks that can pass many rank tests and deserve the Kukkiwon recognition that will not pay $400-$1000 and in many cases never see the real Cert. Just hopefull. Thats all.
Dave O.


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## dortiz (Feb 18, 2009)

Oof!!

Then there is this.....

He hasn't trained Taekwondo during 20 years he has lived in Los Angeles. He simply has a 1st Dan from when he was in the Korean army. So I asked him how he is able to test for 7 Dan and he replied, 'it was possible when I paid more money.' I'm curious to know if Kukkiwon is aware of situations such as this and is still accepting the registration."


Hopes now dashed............

Dave O.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 18, 2009)

I think in the end it was a grab for immediate cash.


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## terryl965 (Feb 18, 2009)

I personallt know a man that has not seriously done any training for 17 years and he went from a third toa seventh in Las Vegas, he himself said he was below average as far as skill but to his credit he has been a loyal supportor for tournaments in California and he knew he was never ever going to get promoted without htis and the shape he was in. The cost was about 15,000 he said for everything test room, food and transportation and he is know a 7th. I will wait and do my test one at a time and train to be able to look good when doing it. My two cents stands this is a way to make money for the KKW and control the testing for the USAT.


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## dortiz (Feb 18, 2009)

Wow,
I guess I was wrong. In my case I thought the fees were cheap. I even had to pay for my testing here and that was $600. Way more than the straight Kukkiwon. Even combined it was not over $1000.
$15,000!! I could do a lot more with that kind of money and feel way better about myself than that guy ended up.
Its time for me to focus on my own training and not play that game.

p.s. Of course now I want to go to one and spar these folks  ; )

Dave O.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 18, 2009)

15 THOUSAND DOLLERS!!!!!!!

screw that

thats a CAR


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## taekwondodo (Feb 18, 2009)

Hi there, 
I've been lurking for a while but finally decided to respond to this thread.

I was at US Open for the Ultra forms and sparring. I had couple of days of free time and saw the room where all of the testers practicing their forms and the door was open, I decided to join the gang.

This was not my first time attending Kukkiwon Poomsae seminar, this is my second time.  I was really impressed with Master Park running the seminar and the translator.  The translator was Korean-American and majority of the translation was correct.

I was also impressed the dedication of the testers, who showed up from 9 am and stayed until 10 pm or so practicing.  Even though I was not testing, I was there to practiced all of the Black belt forms with them and was giving some of the pointers to others.  I've been practicing these 4, 5, 6, and 7 dan forms for the last 9 months was familiar with the forms.

I caught a little bit of the testing and from what I saw, there were 2 pannels. The poomsae judges, and the sparring judges.

Master Park stated that if the testers did not get the basics down, then they will fail the test.

So, if any testers who has not been involved in TKD for a while and want a quick promotion, I am sure they will fail because the changes to the new Poomsae standard was different.

The stances, the changes in certain techniques in certain form, and many other minor changes that was not known to the US TKD practitianers.

If the testers was able to adapt the new ways in 2 days, then they will pass the test.

I could have test and skip dan test and have a good reason/qualified to test.  I've been 3rd Dan for the last 15 years, and had 2 chances to test for my 4th dan along the way. Unfortunately, things came up and was not able to.

Then there is that moving from state to state, and was not belong to a specific school to continue my tkd . However, I teached TKD along the way, so its not like I was totally out.

Now that I am belong to a really good school in Dallas and the instructor is really good, so I decide to have him test me this fall.  I passed the opportunity to skip dan test to 5th at US Open so I can test with my instructor for 4th dan.

I do not think the Special Dan test was a joke, but it was a favor to black belt who has the same situation like me to be up to date with their rank.  

But then, whats in a rank anyway.  If you look at my skills, you cannot say I am a 3rd dan.  My skills matched the what would have been a 5th dan not brag or anything.


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## Thesemindz (Feb 19, 2009)

taekwondodo said:


> If the testers was able to adapt the new ways in 2 days, then they will pass the test.


 
This to me is a perfect example of a lot that is wrong with modern commercial martial arts.

If the testers (are) able to adapt the new ways in 2 days, then they will pass the test.

2 days? Really? For black belt ranking? 2 days. Is the material that simple, the practitioners that amazing, or the rank that fraudulent?

I don't mean this as a slam against TKD. This crap happens in Kenpo too, and I'm sure it does in every other martial art. How many dan ranks do you think you could buy on Ebay for 15 thousand dollars? More than 6 I'd bet.

2 days. To learn the material for black belt ranking. 

Not something I'd brag about either.


-Rob


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## terryl965 (Feb 19, 2009)

taekwondodo said:


> Hi there,
> I've been lurking for a while but finally decided to respond to this thread.
> 
> I was at US Open for the Ultra forms and sparring. I had couple of days of free time and saw the room where all of the testers practicing their forms and the door was open, I decided to join the gang.
> ...


 

Can I ask what school you belong too. I also live in the Metroplex and have my school in Arlington. The problem I see if they can learn it in two days they will pass, so a BB is memorizing a poomsae and not learning alll the application, no more needs to be said. Sorry I am realy trying not to offend anybody but that is wrong in my book and if you was just trying to get a 1st to 3rd no test what so ever just pay and here you go.


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## dortiz (Feb 19, 2009)

Being the usual devils advocate I have to wonder. Who would pick up the nuances of the changes. Someone that has the forms down pat and has done them for years or folks who went to learn them just for test. Posers.


Dave O.


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## NPTKD (Feb 19, 2009)

I was there and tested. I competed in Ultra Forms and sparring. I already had my 5th thru AAU and USAT. I was testing to convert to Kukkiwon. The stances and techniques that were changed were very simple. If you stay current with the Kukkiwon  and own the 2006 textbook, then you really didnt have any problems. The people who had problems were the ones that never made an attempt stay currnet. Some of the Old timers feel as if they do not need to keep up dated on thier training. I heard alot about this texting on other sites and about 90% of it was wrong. The text was a good thing for people like me who wanted to convert,but what most people don't understand is that this test was or will be done for all the WTF member nations. This is an attempt from Kukkiwon to keep the member nations from making thier own Dan certificates!

Thanks


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 19, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> ... but what most people don't understand is that this test was or will be done for all the WTF member nations. This is an attempt from Kukkiwon to keep the member nations from making thier own Dan certificates!
> 
> Thanks


 
I thought it was "illegal" for WTF member nations to issue anything but Kukkiwons if the students wanted to compete. If you don't and your school issues individual certificates, or Kwan certificates, or what have you what's the big deal? And why wouldn't the WTF just tell USAT (for example) no non-Kukkiwon's _period_? They are, after all, the sport sanctioning body for the WTF in America so they should be playing by WTF rules.

Anyway, sorry about thread drift but this is a question I simply don't understand. Any insight would be great.

Pax,

Chris


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## IcemanSK (Feb 19, 2009)

chrispillertkd said:


> I thought it was "illegal" for WTF member nations to issue anything but Kukkiwons if the students wanted to compete. If you don't and your school issues individual certificates, or Kwan certificates, or what have you what's the big deal? And why wouldn't the WTF just tell USAT (for example) no non-Kukkiwon's _period_? They are, after all, the sport sanctioning body for the WTF in America so they should be playing by WTF rules.
> 
> Anyway, sorry about thread drift but this is a question I simply don't understand. Any insight would be great.
> 
> ...


 
I see your confusion, Chris. One needs a KKW cert to compete in the Olympics, true. But that doesn't mean that one cannot also get another (school or Kwan) certificate also. It's not "illegal" to get a school or Kwan cert. in the eyes of the KKW. They just see their's as the only one someone needs.


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## StuartA (Feb 19, 2009)

Hmmm.. all looks a bit hokey to me.. but what do I know. One question however:





*Are students allowed to wear bracelets when training? *

Stuart


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## StuartA (Feb 19, 2009)

Actually, 1 more question.

Whats the difference between a KKW "_Special_" Dan testing and a standard/normal Dan testing?

Stuart


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## KELLYG (Feb 19, 2009)

I don't think that the testers were advised of pass/fail at the end of there test and that the results were to be sent out at a later date???


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 19, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> what most people don't understand is that this test was or will be done for all the WTF member nations. This is an attempt from Kukkiwon to keep the member nations from making thier own Dan certificates!


Frankly, USAT is a sports organization and the Kukkiwon should not allow them to issue any dan cert that says 'Kukkiwon' on it. 

In the long run, it would be better for the KKW: then having the KKW belt would mean that they'd actually studied a martial art, not just a point kicking game.

I don't know what other member nations' TKD orgs are like, but if they're all like USAT, then this would actually elevate the KKW's stature.

If they want to retain the ability to write dan certs, then they should require member nation's KKW affiate orgs to be more than just a sports body.

The problem is that USAT is the US affiliate of the _WTF_, which is also just a sports body. 

Of course, its all about the money that the KKW would lose.  If USAT is doing the work with their members and the members are really just in it for the tourney, then USAT should actually sever its ties to the KKW.  Of course they'd get screw in international competition, where WTF most likely has the final say.

By the way, my comments are not a shot at USAT. As I said, USAT is a sports organization, so I don't have any problem with them being all about the sport competition. I just don't feel that sports requires belt ranks. Incidentally, I am a USAT member and KKW certified.

Daniel


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## dortiz (Feb 19, 2009)

"Whats the difference between a KKW "_Special_" Dan testing and a standard/normal Dan testing?"

Thats really the kicker here. This is all about Kukkiwon rank and nothing more. ITF is more split up so issues about communicating back to Korea do not seem to be as real.
Here its been interesting. many folks came over and while claiming Kukkiwon rank never sent back the paperwork. In many cases they charged a lot but never did anything. In some cases they just never discussed or issued anything else but school certs. I personally went to a school talked to 9th degree with a Kukkiwon plaque on the wall. After going through the entire program was told he did not do the actual Kukkiwon but was kukkiwon certified. Standing right under the plaque he asked why his rank was not good enough. Its not about that. Some of us want the rank issues from Kukkiwon as expected.
Special Dan testing meant just that. A chance to turn in the paperwork directly and have it reviewed for a Kukkiwon Dan ranking. 
Remember you may be a 3rd Dan with only the 1st turned in. 10 years go by and you find out but hey, you show as a 1st Dan. Here you can present your local 2nd Dan and when you earned it and qualify for the Kukkiwon skip Dan.
Thats why this discussion does not take in to account what is 80% of the actual circumstance.
Dave O.


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## terryl965 (Feb 19, 2009)

This special Dan testing was and is a joke from my point of view, I was one of them that did not have my rank turned in and found out twenty years later that my old GM never did it does it matter to me no, why because my training matters not rank. I would love to be a 7-8 by now and should be but skipping 3-5 ranks at a special testing just does not sit right by me. God has a plan for me and for whatever reason he made sure my path for enternal enlightment stayed the correct course. I do not want nothing I personnally do not feel I am worth, I know I am a great 4th Dan and I am able to get to 3rd for my students, hopefully one day I will get there but you see I am only 50 and I plan on training until death so I am not in any hurry if a circumstance comes up I have legit 6-7- and 8th that will help me because they know me. USAT and the KKW was about money plan and simple and I am not knocking anybody that took the test they had there reasons to do it, but I have my personal beliefs and morals along with my Intrigrity which is way more important to me and my school, I can look in the mirror and relize that I have been truthful to my way of thinking.

God bless all those people that belief this was there only way of doing it and God bless those of us that belief our time will come over the years.


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## NPTKD (Feb 20, 2009)

First of all that wasn't a bracelet it was a wrist band that you had to wear showing that you were registerd for the seminar. You see thats the problem...People talking about things that they just know nothing about...Like the guy who though it was agisnt the law to issue dan certificates. Don't you people research what it is you claim to be so involved in?I hear this crap all the time. Buy a book, google something, write a congressmen.... i dont know, but before you open your mouth know what it is that your talking about.


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## NPTKD (Feb 20, 2009)

And... the USAT Dan cerificate doesn't say Kukkiwon on it.. Come on man!
Think.....


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## NPTKD (Feb 20, 2009)

Last one... Special Dan test.. Well i dont know about you but for my first 4 dan testings the Kukkiwon didn't fly over to sit next to my grandmaster to whatch me text! They did this time... SOUNDS SPECIAL TO ME!


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## StuartA (Feb 20, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> First of all that wasn't a bracelet it was a wrist band that you had to wear showing that you were registerd for the seminar. You see thats the problem...People talking about things that they just know nothing about...


 
Thats why I asked!! thanks for explaining.  Notice the smiley as well!!

Stuart


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## terryl965 (Feb 20, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> First of all that wasn't a bracelet it was a wrist band that you had to wear showing that you were registerd for the seminar. You see thats the problem...People talking about things that they just know nothing about...Like the guy who though it was agisnt the law to issue dan certificates. Don't you people research what it is you claim to be so involved in?I hear this crap all the time. Buy a book, google something, write a congressmen.... i dont know, but before you open your mouth know what it is that your talking about.


 

Well first off I do I know what I am saying, been part of the USAT and the USTU for years and I still feel the same way. The KKW issue rank but like I have always said they never ever know who is getting what because any 4th or higher can sell rank to anybody and there is no real guidelines to it. The USAT and the KKW did this for money plan and simple, my opinion and I will keep saying it to everyone. I do not care who you are, you could have got 1-3 without even a test what does that sound like to the outside world. Please before comdemmong folks know who you condem and make sure you know we are here and support for the most part alot of what is being done with the KKW and the USAT.
.


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## terryl965 (Feb 20, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> Last one... Special Dan test.. Well i dont know about you but for my first 4 dan testings the Kukkiwon didn't fly over to sit next to my grandmaster to whatch me text! They did this time... SOUNDS SPECIAL TO ME!


 
If you was making a million or so dollars from it you would fly over and sit next to a pile of craps as well.


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## terryl965 (Feb 20, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> First of all that wasn't a bracelet it was a wrist band that you had to wear showing that you were registerd for the seminar. You see thats the problem...People talking about things that they just know nothing about...Like the guy who though it was agisnt the law to issue dan certificates. Don't you people research what it is you claim to be so involved in?I hear this crap all the time. Buy a book, google something, write a congressmen.... i dont know, but before you open your mouth know what it is that your talking about.


 
Right but look how close everybody was how much realistically did the panel really see with so many doing it at the same time? not much I would imagine.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 20, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> And... the USAT Dan cerificate doesn't say Kukkiwon on it.. Come on man!
> Think.....


Unless USAT's website is lying:

http://www.usa-taekwondo.us/content/index/2358

... and I doubt that it is, then dan certs most likely do have the Kukkiwon logo and name on them. Otherwise it would be a USAT dan with no need for USAT to make this statement:

*The Dan office at USA Taekwondo provides a direct link between the United States and the Kukkiwon office in Korea. It is our goal to provide efficient processing of your students Black Belt certificates and to provide a support system with Kukkiwon. The Dan office follows all rules and regulations set forth by Kukkiwon and the World Taekwondo **Federation. *

If this statement is somehow untrue, then take it up with USAT.  

*Edit:* I removed a sentence, as it was unnecessary and when I read it, I felt that I came accross as hostile.  Apologies.


Anyway, to my knowledge, there is no USAT dan certificate. They simply act as a go between, so you're only correct that a USAT dan cert doesn't say Kukkiwon insomuchas there is no USAT dan certificate according to the information on USAT's own website. Any cert that they issue, if it is coming from the Kukkiwon as their website states, would indeed say Kukkiwon on it. 

If they are issuing USAT dan certs that _do not_ say Kukkiwon, then the above statement is very misleading.

Daniel


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## dortiz (Feb 20, 2009)

Well I have one. 
The top center is the face of an eagle and then left and right its has a cacade of eagles falling to each side. It then states "Black Belt Certificate".
USA TaeKwondo Presents this certification to "BLAH BLAH BLAH" in recognition of Completing the black belt promotion test following the USA Taekwondo inc., Martial Arts Commision's guidelines. Colorado Springs , Colorado.
Dan number    Dan Issued
Dan Rank        Date Of Birth
The signed by Senior G.M. JoonPyo Choi Co Chairman
                        Senior G.M Hong Kong Kim Co Chairman
                          G.M. (instructor)
                            (Finally) David Askins CEO secretary General USA Taekwondo Inc

At the bottom is the USAtaekwondo logo    USA Olypic rings.

Nowhere is any Kukkiwon reference on this document. Now this may have changed recenty so that I dont know.

Dave O.


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## NPTKD (Feb 20, 2009)

Again.. that picture is not of the actual dan test!!!! I was there this picture was taken from the seminar. There were six of us called up at a time each given numbers and directed to stand on a peice of tape ( to make sure we stopped where we started) a total of four judges. As for the USAT Dan certificate... I HAVE ONE! The USAT does two things in regards to dan:
1. To act as a direct link to Kukkiwon for dan certitifates issued from KKW
2.  To issue their own Dan certificates that are not linked to the KKW

I have both and  also an AAU 5th Dan. I had to retext because KKW does not recognize USAT or AAU Dans. This text , like it was done in all the other countries was to get people back under KKW and to stop issuing thier own dan certificates.


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## dortiz (Feb 20, 2009)

"I have both and also an AAU 5th Dan. I had to retext because KKW does not recognize USAT or AAU Dans. This text , like it was done in all the other countries was to get people back under KKW and to stop issuing thier own dan certificates."


Here is again what we are talking about.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 20, 2009)

dortiz said:


> Well I have one.
> The top center is the face of an eagle and then left and right its has a cacade of eagles falling to each side. It then states "Black Belt Certificate".
> USA TaeKwondo Presents this certification to "BLAH BLAH BLAH" in recognition of Completing the black belt promotion test following the USA Taekwondo inc., Martial Arts Commision's guidelines. Colorado Springs , Colorado.
> Dan number Dan Issued
> ...


Wow!  So in essence, the Kukkiwon is registering USAT dans, most likely getting a cut of the fee, but not putting their own name on the line.

I'm not sure which is worse; getting KKW certs through USAT or USAT being financially shackled to the KKW, most likely to retain member eligibility in international competition through the WTF, even though their certs don't have 'Kukkiwon' printed on them.

Here's a question, Dave: does your cert come up on a dan check on the Kukkiwon website?

Daniel


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## NPTKD (Feb 20, 2009)

And as far as setting next to a piece of crap... Well you should try setting next to a math book. 200 people texting... You do the math? I know what KKW charges. Maybe you got ripped off on your text fee! I would be mad too! Soory for your luck.


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## NPTKD (Feb 20, 2009)

one more time.... The USAT Dan program & the KKW Dan program are two different and seperate  things. The USAT charges $15.00 per application that they send to the KKW. Thier Dan certificate is $25.00 doesn't sound like a lot of money to me.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 20, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> As for the USAT Dan certificate... I HAVE ONE! The USAT does two things in regards to dan:
> 1. To act as a direct link to Kukkiwon for dan certitifates issued from KKW
> 2. To issue their own Dan certificates that are not linked to the KKW
> 
> I have both and also an AAU 5th Dan. I had to retext because KKW does not recognize USAT or AAU Dans. This text , like it was done in all the other countries was to get people back under KKW and to stop issuing thier own dan certificates.


Your last statement most likely answers the question that I asked of Dave.

Interesting.  There is no indication of a separate USAT dan cert on their website that I have ever seen.  It hasn't been an issue for me; I had my Kukkiwon certification independently of USAT. 

Incidentally, I am not averse to USAT issuing their own rank.  If anything, I'd prefer it.  USAT does not promote the same taekwondo that the Kukkiwon does, though there is overlap.  

I still don't see a need for USAT to issue dan certs at all, particularly as they are focused on sport/competition.  But that is a topic for another thread.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 20, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> one more time.... The USAT Dan program & the KKW Dan program are two different and seperate things. The USAT charges $15.00 per application that they send to the KKW. Thier Dan certificate is $25.00 doesn't sound like a lot of money to me.


You beat me to the enter key by two minutes.

25 dollars for a dan cert.  That is beyond entirely reasonable.

Daniel


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## NPTKD (Feb 20, 2009)

*Article 1 : Purpose *
The purpose of these guidelines is to standardize the procedures of USA Taekwondo (The U.S. National Governing Body for Taekwondo) for the issuance of USAT Dan certificates in order to further develop Taekwondo throughout the United States and provide additional promotion tests to the USAT membership.  In addition to following Kukkiwon standards, USAT will provide individual instructors with the opportunity to receive additional certifications.


*Article 2 : Application *
These Guidelines shall be applied to the following: 

2.1. Taekwondo instructors and their students who have been duly enrolled as USAT members of a USAT member club.

2.2. USAT member instructors and their students who are unaffiliated with a USAT member club.

2.3. A USAT member who has a taekwondo Dan certificate issued by the Kukkiwon or the AAU that would like to receive a USAT Dan certificate. 




*Article 3 : Rights *
USAT shall be the governing body with exclusive rights over the USAT Dan promotion tests that will be held at regional and/or national events, including approval of promotion tests, test performance, supervision of promotion tests including screening of Dan or Poom applications, certificates and sanctions of Dan or Poom certificates, setting of all fees, and appointment of all testing commissions and commissioners.
​


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## dortiz (Feb 20, 2009)

The USATaekwondo certs do not put a Dan registry on the Kukkiwon. I have one because I went and paid $400 to school that had a G.M. who would send in the official Kukkiwon form which is now on the web but used to not be available. Regardless it can only be sent by a Kukkiwon recognized higher Dan.

This entire thing is about what is being said right here. The USAT wanted to be the folks to send the Kukkiwon form in but the Kukkiwon said nice work thanks...tell you what we will come out there instead. The USAT Cert is just like your local school one. Its valid but not Kukkiwon. Any USAT school in the country should honor it as an official doc. Given this they are creating a U.S. version of Kukkiwon. It has merits. Its not expensive or a rip off. The only rip offs are the Korean Master who want 400 to thousands to send in a document that gets you Kukkiwon recognition.

Dave O.


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## dortiz (Feb 20, 2009)

Some criticism was received prior to the event that Kukkiwon was just selling belts.  If you ask anyone who attended you will hear quite a different story.  The reality was that the course was rigorous and the testing anything but easy.  It was USAT's and Kukkiwon's hope that everyone would come in experienced and prepared for the test, polishing up their forms during the two-day seminar.  Unfortunately, the reality was quite different.  There were a number of Masters that were clearly in over their heads and knew they could not test at the high level required for the Kukkiwon ranks.  Some testers discovered this right away and dropped out or did not test.  Others worked long hours into the night practicing their skills while working together with their fellow applicants to improve.  The results will be learned in a few weeks.  Not everyone will pass but all will have had a great education as to what is expected from a Kukkiwon examination process.

Just posted on the latest news from USAT


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## NPTKD (Feb 20, 2009)

Thank you... someone out theregets it!!!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 20, 2009)

dortiz said:


> The USATaekwondo certs do not put a Dan registry on the Kukkiwon. I have one because I went and paid $400 to school that had a G.M. who would send in the official Kukkiwon form which is now on the web but used to not be available. Regardless it can only be sent by a Kukkiwon recognized higher Dan.


NPTKD pretty much answered the KKW registry question, but I appreciate the response.  Just to clarify, the KKW requires you to be 4th dan to sign a dan cert. 



dortiz said:


> This entire thing is about what is being said right here. The USAT wanted to be the folks to send the Kukkiwon form in but the Kukkiwon said nice work thanks...tell you what we will come out there instead. The USAT Cert is just like your local school one. Its valid but not Kukkiwon. Any USAT school in the country should honor it as an official doc. Given this they are creating a U.S. version of Kukkiwon. It has merits. Its not expensive or a rip off. The only rip offs are the Korean Master who want 400 to thousands to send in a document that gets you Kukkiwon recognition.


My last comment about the 25 dollar fee was that it is beyond entirely reasonable.  That is to say that it is extremely reasonable.  I hope that if USAT redefines itself as a USA Kukkiwon that the fees will not increase.

Frankly, I'd love to see USAT be a US Kukkiwon analog. 

Unfortunately, most US KKW schools use the testing process from white to black to nearly double their money over the tuition, particularly as the student gets closer to first dan/poom.

Daniel


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## wade (Feb 20, 2009)

Being a member of the USAT's Martial Arts Council and having tested for my USAT and Kukkiwon 7th Dan at last years US Open in New Orleans I can also add, this was a serious and legitimate test. As far as I know there were no free rides. My test lasted for 3 1/2 hours. Many of the testers will not pass and many that do will not receive the rank they are trying to get. It will be a real learning experience for them. 

Report from Las Vegas at the US Open 2009 as given to me.

James Wade Lewis
7th Dan USAT/KKW

Subject: Test
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 10:04:03 -0800
As far as the others, I&#8217;d be very surprised if 50% of us passed. I believe I was most amused by watching people in the holding area, people showing others how to do techniques correctly and then watching them completely fold at their testing, I mean people just seemed lost-leaving out moves, forgetting moves, mixing up forms, etc. There were people that &#8220;scratched&#8221; themselves before they even walked out to test. I was thinking to myself these are the people that are pushing there students to compete and do well. I guess most of them hadn&#8217;t tested in many years and I know that most of them never compete at tournaments either. I feel that competing definitely helps the &#8220;nerve factor&#8221; when performing in front of judges.

My friend watched most of the testing and was telling me how people would get half way through their forms and just blank out and quit and go back to their ready position. Some people couldn&#8217;t even get started with Pal Jang, others would watch someone to see how to do there form and then follow along. One person testing was complaining to one of the officials about the fact that the testers were having to do forms that weren&#8217;t on the &#8220;required&#8221; list, and was told that we were responsible to know everything below our rank. 

I&#8217;ll be surprised if 50% pass but I believe that there will be that many that do, most of those 50% looked pretty good, probably about 25% or more had total confidence in their ability.

What no one told us was when we would find out our results? They only thing we were told was that 59 or less is a fail and 60 and above was passing on their point scale. And knowing that I had one &#8220;bobble&#8221; out of all my forms makes me feel confident that I should have scored pretty well on poomsae. Sparring &#8211; well if it was going on points I beat my opponent, but I really didn&#8217;t get the opportunity to show a lot of my technique and that is what the judges wanted to see. Time will tell. I&#8217;m glad it&#8217;s over and hope that I&#8217;ve passed their test.

One more note, we were originally told to do 2 forms each, but I believe that after the 4th Dan testers began and the judges realized that many of them didn&#8217;t know Pal Jang very well that they started having everyone do that form (I don&#8217;t believe the 7th Dan group had to). And then when the 5th Dan testers started they had to do Pal Jang which really hurt many of them and then when the judges realized they too were having problems with Pal Jang, they added Koryo and people were having problems with that as well. The 6th Dan group ended up doing 6 forms instead of the original planned 2. I went to this test expecting to do all of my colored belt and black belt forms and was surprised when I found out we were only going to do two then as the day went on they added more forms, each time making me happier as I knew that would give me a better chance to show the judges I know my forms. 

I hope that the judges don&#8217;t think that the testing was a dismal failure overall because there were some very good participants but will be surprised if they do it again in the near future.

All in all it was a fantastic experience and wish all of those that tested the best of luck and am grateful that the USAT and KKW allowed us the opportunity to test for them.


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## NPTKD (Feb 20, 2009)

I tested for 5th. Had to do Pal jang, Koryo,Taebek and Pyungwon. Didn't have any problems with any of them. Sparring was too short I agree. But I was able to fight twice. Felt good! Alot of people were under prepaired and those are the people that are making the rest of us look bad.


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## NPTKD (Feb 20, 2009)

As far as the USAT Dan certificates go, I spoke3 with Kukkiwon over six months ago to ask about the testing that was to take place in Cananda, that is how I found out about the U.S. testing. They told me that part of the agreement between the member nations was if Kukkiwon were to hold these test, then all member nation will stop issuing their own Dan certificates. I ask Mr. Askinas about this about three months ago and was told it was the first he hard heard of it. But, read the article on mookas were the picture on page 2 came from. A member of Kukkiwon said the samething that I was told by the kukkiwon six months ago. The price for USAT dan certificate was $25.00 but is now the same price as Kukkiwon, which leads me to believe that they are in the process of discontinueing thier dan program. The ETU has done the same in regards to their dan program. Why pay for second best if you can get the best for the same price!


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## dortiz (Feb 20, 2009)

Cool... I may end up with a collectors item : )

P.S. Congrats James. Sounds like you did well.


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## taekwondodo (Feb 20, 2009)

I didn't think the test were easy.  I've been learning these forms, from Pyonwon and up since last July and it was not that easy.

Up until when I practiced with the testers, I was unsure what form goes to 5th dan and 6th dan.  But after practicing from 9 AM to 10 PM at night for 2 nights, I am more confident of each forms now.

If the testers weren't familiar with the forms and wanted to skip dan test, then it would be over their head.  Master Park stated that if any one don't feel confident to test, then they should not be testing.  He repeated many times in the two days.

I was practicing with them because I am preparing myself for the Competitive Poomsae at National in Austin.


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## MasterWright (Feb 23, 2009)

I just want to point out that the Skip Dan promotion was only available to U.S. residents.

Terry, I don't meant to take attention away from the original thread but I have a burning question in my mind.

So...how might this affect the quality of Taekwondo in the U.S.


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## IcemanSK (Feb 23, 2009)

taekwondodo said:


> I didn't think the test were easy. I've been learning these forms, from Pyonwon and up since last July and it was not that easy.
> 
> Up until when I practiced with the testers, I was unsure what form goes to 5th dan and 6th dan. But after practicing from 9 AM to 10 PM at night for 2 nights, I am more confident of each forms now.
> 
> ...


 


So you tested at this event, correct? When do/did you find out if you passed? If testers don't find out if they passed until later (by mail or something) than no one can really say whether or not this experiment of a skip dan test was good or bad, yet. If it "looked" as if 1/2 of the people didn't look good, then the bystanders won't ever know how the group actually scored. Maybe half of the testers failed. We won't know for sure.


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## Laurentkd (Feb 23, 2009)

wade said:


> .....
> My friend watched most of the testing and was telling me how people would get half way through their forms and just blank out and quit and go back to their ready position. Some people couldnt even get started with Pal Jang, others would watch someone to see how to do there form and then follow along. One person testing was complaining to one of the officials about the fact that the testers were having to do forms that werent on the required list, and was told that we were responsible to know everything below our rank.
> 
> ....
> One more note, we were originally told to do 2 forms each, but I believe that after the 4th Dan testers began and the judges realized that many of them didnt know Pal Jang very well that they started having everyone do that form (I dont believe the 7th Dan group had to). And then when the 5th Dan testers started they had to do Pal Jang which really hurt many of them and then when the judges realized they too were having problems with Pal Jang, they added Koryo and people were having problems with that as well. The 6th Dan group ended up doing 6 forms instead of the original planned 2. I went to this test expecting to do all of my colored belt and black belt forms and was surprised when I found out we were only going to do two then as the day went on they added more forms, each time making me happier as I knew that would give me a better chance to show the judges I know my forms.


 
I can't believe dan holders would even show up if they didn't know all the color belt forms... wouldn't that be an obvious requirement?
Does that blow anyone else away?


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## dortiz (Feb 23, 2009)

"I can't believe dan holders would even show up if they didn't know all the color belt forms... wouldn't that be an obvious requirement?
Does that blow anyone else away? "

I have to agree. Maybe I am lucky that I was always taught to start with our basic 3 forms and then go through all 8 before then doing the Black Belts forms in oder as well. Even twice a month on busy months keeps you fresh but cmon! 

Dave O.


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## IcemanSK (Feb 23, 2009)

Showing & not knowing how important the forms are to the testing board is one thing, but once you know that, continuing to test even though you don't know the forms is quite another. 

I'll take Master Park's word that "if you don't know the forms, you won't pass." If I didn't know them, I wouldn't expect that I could pass the test. I hope that is a lesson to anyone who that they'd just slide by on this test.


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## wade (Feb 23, 2009)

I'm also surprised that people showed up not ready to test. One BB that I know personally, and he wasn't the only one, showed up with no sparring gear. The look on their faces when they were told to strap up was priceless, and the Kukkiwon testers were  not giving them time to go buy or borrow gear. It was "right here right now". 

 I was the first and only one tested last year and I bought everything, including wood for my breaking. I even bought a sparring partner just in case. They started me in a horse stance doing punches, then I did all my kicks, remember I'm 58 years old going for 7th Dan, you would think I know basic technique. After watching some of the people at this last test I now understand why they did it. Some were great but a lot were, to be honest, really sucky. By the time I was done with the basics,  Non stop self defense against empty hands and weapons, all my forms starting at Tae Guk #1 up to Chong Won, some more than once, being stopped in the middle of them to explain what I was doing and why, then doing my breaking and my sparring my wife thought I was going to have a heart attack. BUT! I had been training for this since the Nationals in back in July when they said I could test. I even spent the last 7 months training with a member of the USAT's Poomsae team to make sure all my forms were correct. By the time I did my interview, 3 1/2 hours later, I was really ready to be done. 

So, like I said, I can't understand why anyone would show up at a test like this unprepared. There is no excuse and they have no sympathy from me.


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## IcemanSK (Feb 23, 2009)

I read Wade's words & it restores my faith in the folks on testing boards at big events like this. If you're gonna test, be prepared!

There is a walk of shame for folks who aren't prepared.:mst:


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## dancingalone (Feb 23, 2009)

IcemanSK said:


> There is a walk of shame for folks who aren't prepared.:mst:



I'm glad to hear the standards for the special test were high.  High rank should be a privilege and not something you accrue just due to time.  Shame to those who just showed up without preparation and embarrassed themselves and their art.


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## terryl965 (Feb 23, 2009)

MasterWright said:


> I just want to point out that the Skip Dan promotion was only available to U.S. residents.
> 
> Terry, I don't meant to take attention away from the original thread but I have a burning question in my mind.
> 
> So...how might this affect the quality of Taekwondo in the U.S.


 

To me it simply says pay your money and get promoted. But you know what do I really care no, I know I know my stuff and beyond so to all of those that do not Bless them and there students.


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## IcemanSK (Feb 23, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> To me it simply says pay your money and get promoted. But you know what do I really care no, I know I know my stuff and beyond so to all of those that do not Bless them and there students.


 
I understand your concern, Terry. But the reports above are saying that that isn't the case here. If folks weren't prepared they weren't passing.


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## terryl965 (Feb 23, 2009)

IcemanSK said:


> I understand your concern, Terry. But the reports above are saying that that isn't the case here. If folks weren't prepared they weren't passing.


 
All I can say is I personally know  person that skip Dan from 2nd to 7th and he barely knew his stuff and passed. Like he said the time in and what he can bring in the way of student allowed him to pass. For all of those that saw something different great, I can only repeat what I was told by people I trust. Sure there was some great instructors that work hard for there rank but there was those that slipped though the cracks and that is my concern because know they can bring more under deserving student into the mix because they can issue rank from now on.


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## wade (Feb 23, 2009)

Well Terry, I'm glad that there are people out there that you can trust but, and it's a small "but", since no has yet been told whether they passed or not IMHO I would start to question your friend's information. Is it fact or is it what they feel about what happened. 

There is quite a bit of difference. I do know that some of the testees who were caught short are very bitter about how they got "screwed" and are passing out tales, hear say, innuendos, rumors and what ever to say why they didn't pass and some one else did. My personal favorite and this is a quote "the kukkiwon is nothing but a clearing house for certificates, I get to do my real test this June in my own school where it really counts". If it wasn't important then I wonder why he even paid his money and showed up? He also didn't know all his forms and had no sparring gear either. Ah, ain't life grand? Oh, on that note, his own instructor also tried to do a skip dan but was turned down. So now we have two unhappy people who are going to be telling the world how the KKW screwed them. Sigh...

To even process a 1st Dan KKW takes a minimum 30 days. To grade and process this many certificates I would think you might like to add maybe a day or two to that time line. Just in case. My Kukkiwon certificate wasn't issued until 20 Sep. 2008, 7 months after I tested and remember, it was only me, no one else. Now multiply that by a couple of hundred more people testing and well, I think you get the picture. 

I really wish you would have been there at the testing, I really do. Maybe next time, eh? Austin maybe? I will be there and would be happy to sit on your testing board as a personal favor to make sure everything is done right and no one gets by with anything they shouldn't. Besides, I would really like to see your test, I have no doubt it will be impressive to say the least. No thanks are needed, it would be my pleasure. 

This is a personal question and you don't need to answer and no, I am not messing with you, but I am curious. If KKW certification is not important to you other than so your son can compete, then why, and I mean no disrespect, do you want to go up in KKW rank. You are already a KKW 4th Dan so to me that would seem like over kill considering how much you seem to hate the KKW.


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## terryl965 (Feb 23, 2009)

Wade I do not hate the KKW in fact I am one of the loyal supporter of them, what I do not like is what is being said by people, look on TKD.net and what they have to say. I am pleased to say and tell everyon ethat I am KKW certified person and have taken the KKW Instructor as well. I only post what I have been told and you are right no one will get there certificates until down the road but I was told individuals was told whether they passed or not. I am sending you a PM for your eyes only. I do hope you understand my take on this and the info I get. I am sure that those folks that did train and did do everything right will understand that I am not bashing but just giving out info. that I was told. Wade I trust and believe you more so than most others so I will just report what is said and let you counter fight it. I hope I have not offended you in anyway or any other instructor that was there, it is not my intention at all.:asian:


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## wade (Feb 23, 2009)

Terry, we are still good, but, since you missed out on me buying drinks in Vegas, and I was at the bar by the elevators every night for at least one cold one, it's all on you in Austin. It's going to be hot and I am going to be thirsty. :ultracool


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## terryl965 (Feb 23, 2009)

wade said:


> Terry, we are still good, but, since you missed out on me buying drinks in Vegas, and I was at the bar by the elevators every night for at least one cold one, it's all on you in Austin. It's going to be hot and I am going to be thirsty. :ultracool


 
Austin for sure Wade it is in my backyard no problem.


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## taekwondodo (Feb 23, 2009)

IcemanSK said:


> So you tested at this event, correct?.


No, I did not test.  I was not planning to test.  I saw the doors was open and I went up to my room, changed into my uniform and joined them. 

Very good experience indeed.  I also watched the test Sunday, and the room was stuffy and crowded.

Also, I met up with one of the Master in Richardson, TX this pass weekend. I asked when will he know if he pass or not, he said in few weeks.  So, there isn't any immediate result if anyone wanted to know.


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## terryl965 (Feb 24, 2009)

taekwondodo said:


> No, I did not test. I was not planning to test. I saw the doors was open and I went up to my room, changed into my uniform and joined them.
> 
> Very good experience indeed. I also watched the test Sunday, and the room was stuffy and crowded.
> 
> Also, I met up with one of the Master in Richardson, TX this pass weekend. I asked when will he know if he pass or not, he said in few weeks. So, there isn't any immediate result if anyone wanted to know.


 
Who is your Master in Richardson Texas?


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## NPTKD (Feb 24, 2009)

I call MAC yesterday to find out if I passed and they told me that I would be notified by USAT next week. The only people that I heard know if they passed or not were the people who tested Saturday night after the seminar. The 5th dan that I spent time training with ( no names) told me that they were to that they passed.


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## wade (Feb 24, 2009)

This is good to hear, now lets see how long it takes to get the KKW certificates and also if every one gets the ranks they were trying/hoping to get.


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## troubleenuf (Feb 24, 2009)

They will pass everyone... how would the retest them?  If they had any intention of failing anyone would they not have set up some information for retesting?


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## NPTKD (Feb 24, 2009)

I don't know how it works in your school,but if someone fails a test at ours you must wait to be recommended for testing the next cycle. So I guess if you were to fail that you will have to ether retest with your master instructor or wait until next years US open and test with USAT (not Kukkiwon). I have heard this alot.. My question is  (if it is a question or more of a statement) what  or how does it hurt Kukkiwon to fail anyone? They still get paid ether way! And they look even better if some of us fail. That way the people like you who feel this way are shown that it wasn't a give away. Its a win win for Kukkiwon.


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## troubleenuf (Feb 24, 2009)

Actually I see it the other way.... what is the incentive to fail?  If they fail someone they have to retest them somehow.... they get no more money for it either way, so it would be just easier for them to pass everyone regardless.  Plus how are we ever going to know if someone passes or fails?  Do you really think they are going to publish it?  I would highly doubt it and I will bet they are counting on no one finding out.





NPTKD said:


> I don't know how it works in your school,but if someone fails a test at ours you must wait to be recommended for testing the next cycle. So I guess if you were to fail that you will have to ether retest with your master instructor or wait until next years US open and test with USAT (not Kukkiwon). I have heard this alot.. My question is  (if it is a question or more of a statement) what  or how does it hurt Kukkiwon to fail anyone? They still get paid ether way! And they look even better if some of us fail. That way the people like you who feel this way are shown that it wasn't a give away. Its a win win for Kukkiwon.


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## terryl965 (Feb 25, 2009)

I do not believ that no matter what they do will be right for some, I believe this could be a great thing if they tweek it a little.


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## Miles (Feb 25, 2009)

FWIW (probably very little), the KKW newsletter used to show applicants for high dan and the passage rate was nowhere close to 100%.

I was told that the passage rate for the Foreigner Instructor Course is about 50%.

This tells me that the KKW has no problem failing Koreans or anyone else who is not up to the standard (even if they spend a boatload of money going to Korea and taking the course or test).

Personally, I think those who were not prepared did the honorable thing by not testing.  As far as their testing fees, it is the same as if they tested but did not pass.

For those who tested and failed, it was a learning experience and now the question becomes what are they going to do now?

For those who tested and passed-congratulations.


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## terryl965 (Feb 26, 2009)

Miles you have put a nice twist to this converstation, but can I ask where you got your info. on the percentage of people passing by the KKW? I could not find any info. Because I was in beliefs that the instructor course was more  like an 80/20 ratio or that is what I was told by alot of folks over the last ten years.


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## miguksaram (Feb 26, 2009)

troubleenuf said:


> They will pass everyone... how would the retest them? If they had any intention of failing anyone would they not have set up some information for retesting?


 
The KKW paid their own way to the LV they were not treated by the USAT.  It was already noted that if the people did not perform up to their standards that they would fail.  If these people fail, they will have to make their way to Korea to test next time.


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## troubleenuf (Feb 26, 2009)

Oh come on... do you really believe that?



miguksaram said:


> The KKW paid their own way to the LV they were not treated by the USAT.  It was already noted that if the people did not perform up to their standards that they would fail.  If these people fail, they will have to make their way to Korea to test next time.


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## miguksaram (Feb 27, 2009)

troubleenuf said:


> Oh come on... do you really believe that?


 
Do you have proof otherwise?


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## Miles (Mar 2, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Miles you have put a nice twist to this converstation, but can I ask where you got your info. on the percentage of people passing by the KKW? I could not find any info. Because I was in beliefs that the instructor course was more like an 80/20 ratio or that is what I was told by alot of folks over the last ten years.


 
It was in the KKW newsletter they used to send out quarterly (well before they had a website). I'll try to find it and if I do, will scan and post it.


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## terryl965 (Mar 2, 2009)

Miles do you remember the resource book the KKW put out sometime around 1987 or 88 and it listed every BB that ever tested or did the instructor course? I was looking for mine this past wekend and could not find it. Or if anybody else remember it or have a copy could you let me know.


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## Miles (Mar 2, 2009)

Sorry Terry, I don't remember this book.  But the 1st Foreign Instructor Course was in '98 so it would not have any non-Korean instructors anyway.


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## terryl965 (Mar 2, 2009)

Miles said:


> Sorry Terry, I don't remember this book. But the 1st Foreign Instructor Course was in '98 so it would not have any non-Korean instructors anyway.


 
Sorry I meant 97 - 98 it listed the instructor it was more like a booklet that was sent out every year with the instructor that attended the course. I guess I just need to go though all my stuff and find it.


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## Miles (Mar 2, 2009)

Sorry Terry, I don't remember this book.  But the 1st Foreign Instructor Course was in '98 so it would not have any non-Korean instructors anyway.


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## Miles (Mar 2, 2009)

OK,  if I did this right, you can see a chart showing High Dan Test results for the 2 tests held in the second half of 2002:

View attachment $scan0001.jpg


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## troubleenuf (Mar 2, 2009)

OK not to cause controversy but... do they fail these people for a week, a month, a year???  How long do they go before they retest them?


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## Miles (Mar 3, 2009)

troubleenuf said:


> OK not to cause controversy but... do they fail these people for a week, a month, a year??? How long do they go before they retest them?


 
You are not causing controversy, just asking a legitimate question. The answer is they can test at the next cycle-for those ranks (6th-9th dan), there are 4 high dan tests per year, so it is the next quarter.  But, they have to pay for the test again.  Lower ranks (1st-5th dan) have a more frequent testing cycle-it could be monthly.

Now, if I was testing for 6-9th dan and I failed, I would be darn sure that I was prepared the next time out.


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## tkdarch1 (Mar 3, 2009)

I have been reading through all these posts over the last week or so and it is amazing to see so much wild speculation and misinformation. In any case, I attended the seminar and test and will try to summarize my thoughts. First I should say I was well qualified to test for 6th (met all KKW reqs), I was well prepared, performed very well and I expect to pass - but no word yet as of 3/3/09.

First the seminar. As others have mentioned the seminar was terrific and Master Park was professional and all business. He put a lot of effort into the seminar and everyone I talked to thought highly of him and his teachings. Day 1 covered all the Taegeuk forms, followed by the black belt forms up through 7th dan. Day 2 focused on the highest forms required for your rank (compulsory), e.g. pyongwon for 4th, Jitae for 6th, etc. Although the room was too small for the large turnout, alternating the testing groups worked out just fine.

The Requirements. It was reiterated that your compulsory form was the most important one to nail, along with 1 additional form per the listed KKW requirements. http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination03.jsp?div=03
Additionally 1 minute of demonstration style sparring was required, not competition style sparring, so they could judge our technique, movement, etc. (In other words, dont go too hard, use a variety of techniques and be real fancy)

The test. The test was conducted beginning with those testing for 4th dan, then 5, 6 and 7. Groups were brought up according to their current dan rank. So, for example lets look at the 6th dan groupings. All current 3rd dans skipping to 6th  had to do the same forms (taegeuk 8, koryo, taebaek, pyongwon and jitae); 4th dans skipping to 6th did the same forms (Koryo, Pyongwon TWICE, Jitae) etc.  The pattern became clear that you were being tested for the rank in which you applied AND for each rank you were skipping (if you were skipping.) That is why some testers performed different forms and different number of forms. This held true for every tester I spoke with.

For those of us who like to spar the sparring portion was way too short. J Most people got cut off in less than a minute, but quite frankly it is easy to judge someones technique and ability from just a few techniques. Many testers had a hard time understanding demo style and were going way too hard. The KKW officials were not happy with that and warned the testers that it would be a mark against them. 

Rumors or Fact? For what its worth
I heard from a KKW official 3-5 weeks after the test the usat would notify us of the results.
Same official said about 40% will fail. If you didnt know a form it was an automatic fail. 
One of the Korean testers had dinner with the KKW officials and told me they were not happy about the position they were in. They cannot fail everyone because it would harm the relationship with the US and USAT. On the other hand they cannot pass everyone because it would diminish the KKWs credibility. They realize there is a lot of scrutiny and attention on the special testing and will be very strict with their scoring.

To sum it up, it was a great experience. Most of the testers appeared qualified but of course the ones who were unprepared or unqualified were easy to spot. I dont think the kkw will have a hard time finding plenty of people to fail. Although the physical demands of the test itself were not that great the sheer amount of preparation in and out of the seminar certainly was. Many of us worked long and hard and in the end walked away very proud with a feeling of accomplishment.

This is getting to be a long post. I am glad to clarify if any of this is unclear.


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## NPTKD (Mar 3, 2009)

We'll See........


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## Miles (Mar 3, 2009)

Tkdarch1, welcome to MT!  Can you give us a little background-what was your KKW rank and what rank did you test for?

If the KKW said it would be 3-5 weeks, that means the results might not be posted for another 2 or so weeks.  I am getting the impression folks are waiting for results any day now.

Kind of unrelated, but I tested a young man in December, 08 for 1st poom.  We knew his KKW poom # from the website in early Jan 09 but just received his certificate.  I've never had a delay of this length ( I deal directly w/KKW) and was a little surprised.


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## tkdarch1 (Mar 4, 2009)

Miles, Thanks. I am more of a lurker than a poster when it comes to forums 

I am a KKW 4th and tested for 6th.

The 3-5 weeks comment was straight from the official, but who knows. My experience tells me that we (the testers) should be preparred for anything because the KKW makes their own rules. My point is we can postulate, but all we can really do is wait and see. I hope it is any day but I wouldn't be surprised if it took a lot longer.

As for your delay, perhaps the holidays slowed them down? I've had delays before with USAT Dan office and the KKW. I will be processing a few in the next few weeks, perhaps I will send one directly the KKW and another via USAT and see which is faster...


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## terryl965 (Mar 4, 2009)

tkdarch1 welcome to the site, glad to see someone else perspective on the testing. Let me ask you thiis in all fairness  do you believe the test to have been more od a fomality than actual test? I am asking because some other felt that way.

Also I agree no matter which way the KKW goes on this they end up looking bad, so why do it? That is the confusing part to me.


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## Manny (Mar 4, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> This special Dan testing was and is a joke from my point of view, I was one of them that did not have my rank turned in and found out twenty years later that my old GM never did it does it matter to me no, why because my training matters not rank. I would love to be a 7-8 by now and should be but skipping 3-5 ranks at a special testing just does not sit right by me. God has a plan for me and for whatever reason he made sure my path for enternal enlightment stayed the correct course. I do not want nothing I personnally do not feel I am worth, I know I am a great 4th Dan and I am able to get to 3rd for my students, hopefully one day I will get there but you see I am only 50 and I plan on training until death so I am not in any hurry if a circumstance comes up I have legit 6-7- and 8th that will help me because they know me. USAT and the KKW was about money plan and simple and I am not knocking anybody that took the test they had there reasons to do it, but I have my personal beliefs and morals along with my Intrigrity which is way more important to me and my school, I can look in the mirror and relize that I have been truthful to my way of thinking.
> 
> God bless all those people that belief this was there only way of doing it and God bless those of us that belief our time will come over the years.


 

I'm with Terry, I'm a 1 Dan Black Belt from Jido Kwan, I have no KUKIWON certifiation, I tested on December 1987, I leqv TKD training in 1990 if I recall well, I returned TKD training on may 2007, this is 17-18 without training,testing or dan promoting, Do I feel worry? NO, I don't feel worry, last year my sambunim asked me several times to do 2dan black belt test and I refused cause I was not prepared, this yare with the will of God and myself will test for 2dan black belt, it will took me 22 years to go from 1 dan to 2 dan so what?

The only thing I want to do is keep training and learning and improving, mayve when I turn 45 I will do 3dan black belt test but, I'm not worry about been 60 and only be a 2dan black belt.

The number of dans does not say nothing to me but these Dans eeb earned with sweat,responsability and respect tru good training and work, I will never pay big money to pass an examination or testing to try to get higher ranks for the time I was off TKD.

I'am a black belt and this is waht really maters to me, the dans can came along with good hard work.

Manny


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## tkdarch1 (Mar 4, 2009)

Perhaps it was more of a formality if I compare it to the physically demanding and long tests I have had in the past. But for that matter, I feel most tests are a formality. As an instructor I know what my students can do before they are invited to test and when testing myself I am always prepared beforehand. So a test is about just doing what you do well during a formal test. However my personal opinion is that high dan testing (5th dan and above) should be less about a physically demanding test and technical perfection and more about growth in other areas, such as the value you are bringing to the taekwondo community, be it through teaching at your school, involvement in community, state or national organizations. I think technical excellence should be achieved all the way up through 4th dan as a prerequisite for upper dan testing. I dont want to turn this topic into a conversation about testing criteria, but rather so you understand my perspective when I say that calling the special testing simply a formality as a derogatory statement isnt necessarily justified. 

But lets see what happens. If 90% fail no one would consider it a formality. If 50% fail would you still consider it a formality? Probably not. But certainly if only 10% fail it would be a shame. My hope is that the KKW maintains a high standard so that the value of dan rank continues to be meaningful.

From everything I gather it is very clear to me that the purpose for this test was many-fold: to squash the USAT Dan Cert program, increase the KKWs presence in the US, strengthen the relationship between the US/USAT and the KKW, encourage 100s of US masters to promote their students through the KKW, etc. Like it or not the KKW is a business and the US is a MAJOR client. They must keep themselves relevant! And as you well know, when you mix business with taekwondo hierarchy, politics and money, it can get pretty messy! J


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 4, 2009)

If you don't mind me asking, TKDarch1, why were you testing for a 6th dan when you currently hold a fourth?

If you addressed that in a previous post, my apologies for selective blindness.

Not picking at you, I was just curious.  Its easy to speculate as to the motivations of people testing, but its better to simply ask someone who tested.

Thanks,

Daniel


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## tkdarch1 (Mar 4, 2009)

Short answer, to make up for lost time. My original master did not issue KKW's, although he charged plenty, and instead issued school certificates with a KKW number on them (his) and he kept us in the dark as to their significance (info was hard to come by in the 80's!) After nearly 10 years without I was able to finally get a KKW after I began training elsewere. Since then I have been fairly slow to test only because it never mattered that much to me,  as I was busy competing, teaching, etc. I was due for my 5th when this opportunity came up and I discussed it with my GM, who is very well known and respected around the world, and knowing my history, dedication, skill, etc. he fully supported me. Without his blessing I would not have tested as ultimately my relationship with him is more important to me and frankly... I still don't care that much about rank! I don't wear stripes on my belt and my students do not call me Master.  I take pride in my ability and what I give back.

The stories I have read on here, if true, about those going from 1st to 7th or what not without having trained for years are shameful. I hope and suspect these are the exceptions, and don't represent the majority.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 4, 2009)

I have known others who were in the same position.  I appreciate the response.

Daniel


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## sadantkd (Mar 28, 2009)

You're missing the point of what he's saying.  He said there have been subtle changes and if you are able to pick up the changes in two days.  Obviously, the Grand Masters who conducted the test would be able to tell someone who had the skill, and needed to tweak a few things from someone who was just learning from the beginning.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 29, 2009)

Who were you addressing?

Daniel


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## Jphtkd (Apr 7, 2009)

This was posted today on the USAT website:
*
Notice to Kukkiwon Special Testing Candidates *

*                 April 07, 2009               *

                USA Taekwondo has received notification from Kukkiwon that the test results and certificates will be finalized as of April 20, 2009.  We will privately notify all candidates of the results and mail the certificates as soon as they are received.  We apologize for the delay in obtaining these results.  There were a number of sensitive issues with Kukkiwon relating to the testing that needed resolution prior to relase of the results.  USAT apologizes for any inconvenience and thanks all of the candidates for their patience.


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## Jphtkd (Apr 20, 2009)

Has anyone received info on the results yet?


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## terryl965 (Apr 20, 2009)

The few that I know have not heard anything yet and nothing was posted on the USAT website earlier today.


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## Miles (Apr 20, 2009)

I suggest checking out the KKW website to see if the rank went through.  But also remember that KKWs for US citizens are processed/dated on the 5th and 20th of each month.  Since Korea is 13 hrs ahead of us, you should be able to see if the rank went through by now (8:25pm Eastern) since it is tomorrow 9:25am there. Otherwise you'd need to wait til Cinco de Mayo.


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## tkdarch1 (Apr 21, 2009)

I checked KKW website, no change as of 11:20PM PST. No one else has heard either, to my knowledge.

Although results are to be "finalized as of April 20, 2009" I suspect it could still take a few weeks for the KKW to mail the certificates to the MAC, and then to have the MAC turn around and mail them out to the individual applicants. We'll see! I doubt anything will be posted one USAT site since they said applicants will be privately notified.

Oh, yeah, a MAC insider informed me the results are going through the MAC office (GM JP Choi).


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## NPTKD (Apr 21, 2009)

I am a Com. Just got off the phone with GM Choi. He is still waiting to here for KKW. He thinks they should be sending the confirmed list soon.


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## tkdarch1 (Apr 21, 2009)

USAT CEO said today that he will be receiving the list directly and that the USAT will be notifying folks, NOT GM Choi. 9 weeks and still waiting....


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## NPTKD (Apr 21, 2009)

9:39 p.m. just got off the phone with kukkiwon. They said they have had the results for two months now! But because of problems between USAT and kukkiwon they are holding the results ( check my earlier posts, I hate to say I told you) Now they say it will be yet another week! I can't tell you how pissed off all of this has made me.......


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## Jphtkd (Apr 21, 2009)

Did they say what the problem was between KKW and USAT? I thought the only major issue was USAT's Dan Certification program, which they stopped.


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## KGTKD (Apr 21, 2009)

What is really sad is that one of my students just asked whether we were embarrassed to say whether or not we passed. I told him, "No, really, we STILL don't know!"  11:05pm, Kukkiwon site doesn't show any changes yet.


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## Carol (Apr 21, 2009)

That must be incredibly frustrating!  

I hope you get the news soon


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## IcemanSK (Apr 23, 2009)

I'm just hoping that folks have been too busy to post, but I'm curious.

Any news?


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## dortiz (Apr 23, 2009)

My impression from the earlier post was another week. My curiosity is more about the Kukkiwon having the results and the issues with USAT. Very interesting.....


Dave O.


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## IcemanSK (Apr 23, 2009)

How THAT gets resolved will (I'd bet) have to do with $$ & closed door meetings in seedy (sp?) places.


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## NPTKD (Apr 23, 2009)

There is a post on the USAT website. Says that the kukkiwon is still processing the test results.... (sure they are! pay no attention to the man behind the screen)


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## Miles (Apr 24, 2009)

There may be something going on behind the scenes here.

The last KKW poom that I processed went extremely quickly-young man takes his test on Saturday 12/13/08.  I mailed the packet to KKW on Monday, 12/15/08, and his results were posted on KKW website on 1/5/09.  I don't recall the actual date when we got the certificate, but I believe it was before the end of 01/09.  His CDK certificate was processed even faster.

Am waiting with curiosity to see what happens-this mass test was historic in many ways...


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## dortiz (Apr 24, 2009)

"There may be something going on behind the scenes here."

An ealier post said they heard the test was wrapped up a long time ago. Ther is something going on. I did notice that USAT changed its DAN page to eliminate its ranking and show that its an extension or connection to the Kukkiwon. 

Dave O.


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## miguksaram (Apr 24, 2009)

dortiz said:


> "There may be something going on behind the scenes here."
> 
> An ealier post said they heard the test was wrapped up a long time ago. Ther is something going on. I did notice that USAT changed its DAN page to eliminate its ranking and show that its an extension or connection to the Kukkiwon.
> 
> Dave O.


I have heard that supposedly these results were going to be given privately now.


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## KGTKD (Apr 26, 2009)

I spoke to David Askinas on Saturday and he said they hadn't received the results as of yet.  He seemed pretty frustrated about the whole thing.


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## Jphtkd (May 4, 2009)

Maybe they think if they just don't say anything, we will forget the whole thing ever happened...


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## dortiz (May 4, 2009)

Hmmmm. even the blurb apologizing for the delay is now gone. The one that said check back next week (on the 20th). 

Dave O.


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## Jphtkd (May 5, 2009)

I got a response to an email I sent yesterday from Mr. Askinas this morning... we are waiting and should hear something back this week. We should start a  pool going for how long it takes them to release the results. My money is on sometime in July... an even 6 months sounds about right


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## tkdarch1 (May 5, 2009)

USA Taekwondo May 05, 2009 
May 5, 2009 - USA Taekwondo has been informed by Kukkiwon that the test results and certificates will be shipped from Korea this week.  There is some misinformation and rumor being circulated that Kukkiwon had not been paid for the tests.  This is absolutely false as Kukkiwon were paid in advance of the testing.  Some minor financial adjustments were made in the month following the test.  We apologize for the delay and are equally frustrated by the process. We hope to have certificates to you soon.


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## Jphtkd (May 5, 2009)

tkdarch1 said:


> USA Taekwondo May 05, 2009
> May 5, 2009 - USA Taekwondo has been informed by Kukkiwon that the test results and certificates will be shipped from Korea this week.  There is some misinformation and rumor being circulated that Kukkiwon had not been paid for the tests.  This is absolutely false as Kukkiwon were paid in advance of the testing.  Some minor financial adjustments were made in the month following the test.  We apologize for the delay and are equally frustrated by the process. We hope to have certificates to you soon.




Translation: We may or may not have or receive the results of your test sometime in the near or not so near future and may possibly be getting them to you in a not so timely fashion.


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## tkdarch1 (May 5, 2009)

Perfect translation! LOL


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## KGTKD (May 6, 2009)

Has anyone checked the Kukkiwon website to see if their Dan is changed? I am assuming if the test results will be sent out this week, the results would be in the system by now, no?


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## Jphtkd (May 6, 2009)

Yup, No change in rank as of today. So I failed or they haven't gotten around to it yet.


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## dortiz (May 6, 2009)

The Kukkiwon was closed yesterday.


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## terryl965 (May 6, 2009)

I Have been told that the results will not be in the system until all applicants are notified by USAT, they maybe a while.


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## dortiz (May 6, 2009)

USA Taekwondo May 05, 2009 
May 5, 2009 - USA Taekwondo has been informed by Kukkiwon that the test results and certificates *will be shipped from Korea this week*. There is some misinformation and *rumor *being circulated that Kukkiwon had *not been paid for the tests*. This is absolutely false as Kukkiwon were paid in advance of the testing. *Some minor financial adjustments* were made in the month following the test. We apologize for the delay and are equally frustrated by the process. We hope to have certificates to you soon.

Lol! Rumor false? Minor adjustments? Oh well. Safe to say anything sent from korea will not be here for a while. Then they will send them out. 

My only frustration is my USAT renewal was in the packet so now I am waiting for my membership. I would have taken the coaches course had it come in time. My fault but frustrating.
I am now comfortable with setting my expectations for August. A man can dream.

Dave O.


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## wade (May 6, 2009)

dortiz, did you really send your USAT renewal by mail, really? 

As for the rest, if you look back you will see where I said how long it would take to process all those applications and that all the people who were already claiming to having passed the test were, well, at best, wrong...........

Gee, it's not often some one really gets to say "I told you so" but to be honest, I am truly sorry that I was right.


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## Jphtkd (May 6, 2009)

dortiz said:


> USA Taekwondo May 05, 2009
> May 5, 2009 - USA Taekwondo has been informed by Kukkiwon that the test results and certificates *will be shipped from Korea this week*. There is some misinformation and *rumor *being circulated that Kukkiwon had *not been paid for the tests*. This is absolutely false as Kukkiwon were paid in advance of the testing. *Some minor financial adjustments* were made in the month following the test. We apologize for the delay and are equally frustrated by the process. We hope to have certificates to you soon.
> 
> Lol! Rumor false? Minor adjustments? Oh well. Safe to say anything sent from korea will not be here for a while. Then they will send them out.
> ...




Send an email to USA Taekwondo, I had the same problem. They sent me my membership card right away after I emailed them.


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## dortiz (May 6, 2009)

Yes really, Its why I have talked to Jennifer or someone there about it a few times. Is that odd? 

I knew the test part would take forever. Kukkiwon stuff always took months.

Dave O.

Edit. Wade sorry to tee you off. I said "my error in my post". I was probably wrong in highlighting that response but it was funny and contradictory. I fully support the USAT and believe they are doing a great job. I grew up with some of the old schoolers so to me Kukkiwon rank has value.  Again my apology.


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## wade (May 6, 2009)

dortiz, first, I'm not really sure you "teed" me off as I have taken no exception to anything you have said so, no apology necessary, K?

As for using the mail, the USAT really hates using the mail for anything. If you want to sign up for something there is always and extra fee to do so if you do it by mail. Besides, with the net you can get pretty much instant gratification for what you want to do with them. Your AC course should take you about 4/6 weeks to get the results. If it takes longer then contact them. Check your personal site on the USAT website and you will know if you are current. You can also contact Jennifer again and let her know you want to take the AC and trust me, this young lady will go out of her way to help you. I have worked with her before and she is very professional in what she does. Once you take and pass the AC Jennifer will make sure it gets posted on "your" site. Once this is done you are good to go. When ever you go to a USAT event they can check and verify it on line. Add your picture and your Dan certificates and things get even easier.

Basic Kukkiwon time line, not going through the USAT.
1st-3rd Dan 4-6 weeks.
4th about 2/3 months
5th & 6th Dan, 6 months minimum, usually right on the nose.
7th Dan, mine was 8 months
Skip Dans, about 6 months


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## dortiz (May 6, 2009)

Wade,
greatly appreciate it. It helps to know that. I am actually in favor of using the web. My last job had an online application process and I constantly dealt with calls from folks not contacted for months. Turned out unless first assigned through sales they just went to limbo. That got me in the habit of paper again. Knowing its all good I will certainly stick to what I too find to usually be a better way to go.

Thanks again,

Dave O.


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## NPTKD (May 7, 2009)

Okay.... I just checked the kukkiwon dan checker and mine has been updated as of 5/7/09..... It's about time... Good luck with the rest of you guy's...


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## Jphtkd (May 7, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> Okay.... I just checked the kukkiwon dan checker and mine has been updated as of 5/7/09..... It's about time... Good luck with the rest of you guy's...



Mine has been updated as well, the new rank listed as of 4/22/09


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## NPTKD (May 7, 2009)

yes.. mine also is 4/22/09 I just ment that as of today it was updated. Congradulations....


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## Jphtkd (May 7, 2009)

And for all the haters that said it was guaranteed as soon as your check cleared, I confirmed that one of the people I know did not pass.


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## dortiz (May 7, 2009)

It is updated. I think the person that commented about certain dates for inputing promotions was right and the Kukkiwon was closed on the 5th so it got done yesterday.

Dave O.


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## wade (May 7, 2009)

Congratulations guys...................


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## Miles (May 7, 2009)

Congratulations!  Now, for those with the ability to do so (whether as a result of this test or not), will you process KKW certificates for your students?


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## tkdarch1 (May 7, 2009)

Mine was been updated from 4th to 5th. I did not receive the skip to 6th (refer to my earlier posts.) I had the time in, met all the req's and completely nailed the test, frankly, better than most. I feel I deserve an explanation.

I checked with 2 other friends so far, 1 has the same story as I do and the other doesn't appear to have passed, no change to his KKW.

I am still organizing my feelings about this. More later...


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## NPTKD (May 7, 2009)

I spoke with USAT today and there are alot of people who didn't pass or were given a lower dan then the tested for....


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## wade (May 7, 2009)

First, if you have the time or the inclination, reread my post on page 3. Now, lets talk about skip dans. It doesn't matter how much time in grade you have, how awesome you are in sparring/forms/breaking yada yada yada. The killer here is "WHY' you want and think you deserve a skip dan.
Because you are awesome doesn't count. Because you have a million years TIG doesn't count. Because you got screwed by a former master doesn't count. In fact, 99% of the reasons people don't get skip dans, and trust me, very very few are ever handed out, is because their reasons are not good enough. That's it, flat out, nothing else. You have to have "just cause" to get that skip dan and if you don't you won't. The sad thing is that once your new rank goes into the system then that is when your new DOR begins and your one and only chance of getting a skip dan is now over. Yes, I know, some on you and you know who you are, know someone who knew someone who had a Friend who knew someone who swore to you that they did it so please, save you and me the trouble. I will agree in advance that no doubt, why yes indeedy I was wrong and your friend is right. Meanwhile, once again, congratulations to the ones who did pass.


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## troubleenuf (May 7, 2009)

Ive applied for two skip dans in the past 10 years or so.. agreed thats not many but both went through without a hitch... Dont remember having to come up with a big explanation for either... however both were for relatively low ranks as well.





wade said:


> First, if you have the time or the inclination, reread my post on page 3. Now, lets talk about skip dans. It doesn't matter how much time in grade you have, how awesome you are in sparring/forms/breaking yada yada yada. The killer here is "WHY' you want and think you deserve a skip dan.
> Because you are awesome doesn't count. Because you have a million years TIG doesn't count. Because you got screwed by a former master doesn't count. In fact, 99% of the reasons people don't get skip dans, and trust me, very very few are ever handed out, is because their reasons are not good enough. That's it, flat out, nothing else. You have to have "just cause" to get that skip dan and if you don't you won't. The sad thing is that once your new rank goes into the system then that is when your new DOR begins and your one and only chance of getting a skip dan is now over. Yes, I know, some on you and you know who you are, know someone who knew someone who had a Friend who knew someone who swore to you that they did it so please, save you and me the trouble. I will agree in advance that no doubt, why yes indeedy I was wrong and your friend is right. Meanwhile, once again, congratulations to the ones who did pass.


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## Carol (May 7, 2009)

_Hearty
Congratulations!  _
artyon: artyon:

Well done everyone :asian:


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## terryl965 (May 7, 2009)

*Congrats everyone :uhyeah:*​


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## KGTKD (May 7, 2009)

Ours was updated!


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## IcemanSK (May 7, 2009)

artyon:artyon:

Congratulations to all of you!


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## Jphtkd (May 7, 2009)

As some have stated, there were a few that did not belong at the test. There were also a lot of people that did belong there, and I had the honor of meeting some excellent martial artists during the seminar. To those of you that passed, congratulations. 

Pass or fail, I hope that everyone who participated came home with the same resolve and renewed enthusiasm for training that I came home with. The experience of being in the same room with that many great Black Belts left me in awe, and reminded me of my First Dan testing. Everything I went through to make that test happen made it worth it for me. Being able to strip away my own ego and stand shoulder to shoulder with fellow Taekwondo Masters and learn from Master Park was an experience I won't soon forget.


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## NPTKD (May 8, 2009)

life changing opertunity for me... Now I can process my student myself through kukkiwon,take the IR course and do the oversea's instructors course in July. I was teaching different forms a year ago. Spent long hours learning all the forms up to fifth for the test. Competed in the US open (sparring & forms) and tested. Now I have changed my whole school to Kukkiwon forms (130 students) competed in state (gold) and national quailifier (gold) now I beleave that I have a more then good chance to make the national poomsae team... All because of this test. My thanks go out to all the people who made this happen for us.


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