# Taekwondo = defense?



## Laborn (Jun 10, 2005)

Taekwondo appears to me like a sport, tournament fighting and stuff, well im 15, I have pretty fast and hard kicks, but I have this doubt, that if someone confronts me my leggs alone wont be enough to defend my self, I had another thread like this, but I have to ask again, do you think taekwondo alone would be enough to take on the punks out there? on my block I jog alot, and a few times i've almost been jumped, I usually talk my way out of it, I wont fight unless I have to, but if push comes to shove would taekwondo be enough, I fight other martial artist, and we usually stay back , but in a real fight they rush, charge, tackle you, if someone tackled me to to the ground, i'd be dead meat....but would they get a chance to get me to the ground?

mabye I should take another style? one more in the way of self defense? what do you guys think?

sorry guys for this kinda long thread.

thanks
Laborn


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 10, 2005)

Depends on how you train in Tae Kwon Do.

First off, when you kick, kick for depth, for penetration.  Don't just kick enough to whack the hogu, practicing kicking for six inches of penetration.

Second, TD is not all kicks.  TKD Olympic style sparring pretty much is, but TKD as a whole as punches, blocks, hand strikes (knife-hand, ridge hand, spear hand, backhand) and even the arm motions in the strikes and blocks can also be used for breaks and small joint movement (but you have to train the hand motions as well)

_but in a real fight they rush, charge, tackle you, if someone tackled me to to the ground, i'd be dead meat.._

Train for that.  In my TKD classes we train sef-defense against people rushing and shoving and grabbing, etc..

If your training is all tournment sparring and poomse, then, yeah, it's not enough for self-defense.  If you train for the full fighting art, then it will serve you well


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## Gemini (Jun 10, 2005)

Laborn,

 If you're a brown belt and haven't had exposure to hand techniques, am I right in assuming your school is geared towards competition? Not that that's a bad thing, I love competition. My point is, it may not be a case of the wrong art, maybe just the wrong school.


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## MJS (Jun 10, 2005)

Laborn said:
			
		

> Taekwondo appears to me like a sport, tournament fighting and stuff, well im 15, I have pretty fast and hard kicks, but I have this doubt, that if someone confronts me my leggs alone wont be enough to defend my self, I had another thread like this, but I have to ask again, do you think taekwondo alone would be enough to take on the punks out there? on my block I jog alot, and a few times i've almost been jumped, I usually talk my way out of it, I wont fight unless I have to, but if push comes to shove would taekwondo be enough, I fight other martial artist, and we usually stay back , but in a real fight they rush, charge, tackle you, if someone tackled me to to the ground, i'd be dead meat....but would they get a chance to get me to the ground?
> 
> mabye I should take another style? one more in the way of self defense? what do you guys think?
> 
> ...



First off, welcome to the forum! :ultracool 

As it was already said, the majority of it is going to come down to how you're currently training.  You'll fight like you train.  How is your training geared?  Kicking is good, but you want to make sure that you're also focusing on the other aspects such as punching, as well as your more close range strikes such as elbows, knees, headbutts, etc.  You may also want to focus on some grappling.  

As for taking on another style...I see nothing wrong with cross training or at the very least, looking at how other styles train.  I do suggest that you wait until you have a strong foundation in one art first before taking something else on.

Mike


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## arnisador (Jun 10, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> Depends on how you train in Tae Kwon Do.


 Absolutely. I've heard that military TKD in Korea is trained in a very harsh and effective manner.

 Much TKD in the States is very sports-oriented. It's good for what it is, but it is what it is--an Olympic sport. Not all schools are principally for sport of course.

 In general, I'd advise adding something with some hands/close-in emphasis. That could be something like boxing or JKD or the like, both of which would fit well, or a grappling art like Judo or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or similar.

 This isn't really TKD-specific advice. Your art tends to emphasize a certain range and weapon (long and feet, respectively). It makes sense to cross-train a bit.


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## silatman (Jun 11, 2005)

Confidence goes a long way in preventing a fight, street punks will normally only pick someone that they believe they can beat, theres not too many people around who pick fights thinking there going to lose. Most martial artists exsude confidence sub consciously and dont look like victems.
Take a look around next time your out in the street, at the mall, where ever and you can always pick out the strong people and the weak and it has nothing to do with size.
IMHO any art will give you the confidence of looking after yourself if you train hard enough and that will come across like a beacon to people looking for trouble.


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## Moogong (Jun 11, 2005)

Everybody has given great advice so far.  I would just add that if you are afraid of being taken to the ground, ask your instructor to go over ground defense and take down prevention techniques.  If you still feel unprepared, crosstrain in bjj or judo once your achieve 1st dan.
You say you are 15 years old?  Perhaps join your high schools wrestling team.  That's not only good for fitness and cardio but would be a great addition to TKD.  Not to mention it would be free...a definite plus.


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## Han-Mi (Jun 12, 2005)

Just for example sake.  My budy was recently rushed by a guy and laid him out with one side kick. It works, you just have to be prepared.


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## psi_radar (Jun 12, 2005)

People on this forum are probably getting tired of this old saw--because your question is one that is often asked--but one of my easiest street fights ever was against a TKD black belt who was sober, and I was dead drunk. He tried to kick me in the head with a roundhouse, I ducked and scooped his support leg and landed him on his ***. Fight over. Of course, I was a pretty proficient wrestler at the time, but even without that training I think I would have picked up the attack. Leg movements are big, swinging things that you just have to react to if the adrenalin is flowing at all. 

Start with the best teacher in your area, not the martial art. If you're going to prison or war sometime in the next few months, then I'd recommend Krav Maga or Systema, arts that will serve you well in the short term. Systema will serve in in the long term as well. If you end up taking TKD, then you'll have a great base for your next martial art. The important part is to get started and see how your body moves. Some martial artists are very loyal to their art, some of whom right now would like to kick my butt for dissing TKD. Others take what they want from various styles and move on. So this choice isn't the end-all be-all.

In the future, consider a well-rounded striking art like Kenpo, Silat, Muay Thai, which is sport-oriented but relatively practical--I already mentioned Systema--, get some ground work: Brazillian Ju-jitsu, Judo, or wrestling, and you'll be the baddest mother****er on the street. Sorry for the cursing but I've been reading Miles Davis' biography and he makes the word "mother****er" sound so poetic I'm inclined to use it in everyday language.


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## Han-Mi (Jun 12, 2005)

psi_radar said:
			
		

> People on this forum are probably getting tired of this old saw--because your question is one that is often asked--but one of my easiest street fights ever was against a TKD black belt who was sober, and I was dead drunk. He tried to kick me in the head with a roundhouse, I ducked and scooped his support leg and landed him on his ***. Fight over. Of course, I was a pretty proficient wrestler at the time, but even without that training I think I would have picked up the attack. Leg movements are big, swinging things that you just have to react to if the adrenalin is flowing at all.


Not all TKD blackbelts would start out with a round kick to the head. But I understand the argument. Wrestlers have a good chance against TKD and good Wrestling is more prevelant than good TKD. I wrestled in highschool and we work some jujitsu in class, Luckily we are a well rounded school. I stand up for TKD a lot, but it all depends on who is using it. Though My training is not Purely TKD, I do believe in TKD as a valid method of self defense, but it does take more time to be useful than some other arts.


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## Jonathan Randall (Jun 12, 2005)

Laborn said:
			
		

> Taekwondo appears to me like a sport, tournament fighting and stuff, well im 15, I have pretty fast and hard kicks, but I have this doubt, that if someone confronts me my leggs alone wont be enough to defend my self, I had another thread like this, but I have to ask again, do you think taekwondo alone would be enough to take on the punks out there? on my block I jog alot, and a few times i've almost been jumped, I usually talk my way out of it, I wont fight unless I have to, but if push comes to shove would taekwondo be enough, I fight other martial artist, and we usually stay back , but in a real fight they rush, charge, tackle you, if someone tackled me to to the ground, i'd be dead meat....but would they get a chance to get me to the ground?
> 
> mabye I should take another style? one more in the way of self defense? what do you guys think?
> thanks
> Laborn


First, increase your situational awareness while jogging. Second, you did very well in talking yourself out of trouble. At 15 that demonstrates real maturity. A lot of kids your age might figure that because they know martial arts, they will dominate in any confrontation.

Second, TKD, in general, is a VERY diverse art nowadays. Saying you study TKD is like saying you study Karate. Which style? TKD ranges from the pure sport to the super combative to the in-between to the McDojang commercial black belt in a year style. I wouldn't worry too much about having a sport emphasis if your school overall is a good one with high standards, because the training in coordination, excellence and discipline will serve you well throughout your life.

The poster who recommended joining your H.S. wrestling team gave you solid GOLD advice. That and learning to use the hand techniques that are in your forms will go a long way toward remedying any weaknesses in your training. However, avoidance is always better than defence. The poster who recommended that you carry yourself in a confident matter gave the best advice for your situation.


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## psi_radar (Jun 12, 2005)

Han-Mi said:
			
		

> Not all TKD blackbelts would start out with a round kick to the head. But I understand the argument. Wrestlers have a good chance against TKD and good Wrestling is more prevelant than good TKD. I wrestled in highschool and we work some jujitsu in class, Luckily we are a well rounded school. I stand up for TKD a lot, but it all depends on who is using it. Though My training is not Purely TKD, I do believe in TKD as a valid method of self defense, but it does take more time to be useful than some other arts.



All respects due to you, the martial artist truly represents the art, however, every street experience I've had with a TKDist left me the winner (three fights, twice with the same guy). I did get beaten once in a tounament by a TKD'er, but he was damned good and there was no opportunity for a charge or takedown. I also didn't feel the hits. Any artist that pays attention to the base as well as the attack has a good chance against a kicker. You've got to concede that TKD relies on leg-work  to hands at least a 70-30% ratio. In my mind that's like leaving the top part, most rapid part of your tool box closed. 

You're right though, it depends on the artist and the school. :asian:


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## psi_radar (Jun 12, 2005)

If I could do it all over again...

Wrestling

Kenpo


Systema

Jiu-jitsu


Wait..that's what I've done...

Consider this, grasshopper... take pebble from hand.
.


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## psi_radar (Jun 12, 2005)

OK, I know I'm reaching shameless post-whore levels here, but I just re-read your initial post (and others) and the whole multiple-attacker scenario finally registered. You did the right thing. Defending yourself against three or more attackers usually only works on film.  

The Russians and the Slovaks have a tradition of group fighting. To my knowledge, they are the only ones that have developed specific methodologies besides "line 'em up." Do some google searches, there are actually events when young men gather in lines and attack each other, along the lines of May-Day celebrations. Whoopee! This happens in other cultures (soccer hoooligans) but it's not so organized or traditional. 

Join the wrestling team; I loved it, it developed my competitive spirit, got me used to contact and taught me great skills. If there's a Systema school in your area, join it. It's harder than any other martial arts school you've been to; anticipate some pain, but it will pay off. Good luck!


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## Gemini (Jun 12, 2005)

Moogong, - Excellent advise about the wrestling. I wrestled in HS and it's a great foundation for any MA.

 psi-radar, - If I had the same experiences you did, I would probably feel the same way, so I can certainly understand your opinion. Shame. All I can say is, anyone who wants to start a street fight with a kick to the head is going to get what he deserves. I fall back to "It's not the art, but the practitioner" on this one. There's alot more to TKD than high kicks. We spend as much time with striking techniques as kicking techniques at my school. After all, it isn't Tae do.

  Regards,


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## arnisador (Jun 12, 2005)

I wrestled in HS as well and it was a great fallback when I got tackled and my standard martial arts techniques didn't work. Also good for conditioning/stamina and confidence that you can handle another person.

Now I rely on BJJ instead, but 2 years of wrestling was a big, and _free_, help.


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## TigerWoman (Jun 12, 2005)

As others have said, it depends on the school and the martial artist.  A high round kick to the head is very foolish for street self-defense.  It shows alot of immaturity in the art.  We don't do wide slow swinging kicks.  After doing hundreds of each kick each session for many years, a fast snap kick from the front leg will put a knee out very quickly. It is accurate when it is trained properly. We also train alot of hand technique and that includes punching to the head. Taekwondo self-defense is also for rushing, grabs, holds and some ground technique etc.  Sparring in class is not street self-defense.  The more you practice, the better you will get but it does depend on your school and what it has to offer. TW


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## Brad Dunne (Jun 12, 2005)

Labron, from all that has been stated, your in a sport totally venue. I would suggest that since you are a brown belt level, finish the journey. In the interim, you may want to ask your instructor (provided he/she is capable), to possibly set up some purely self defense classes. If that's not an option, then I would look around for another school that has a focus on self defense. Not knowing what's available in your area, my first offering would be to find either a Hapkido or Jujitsu school. You just may be surprised at how easily your TKD training can fit into other disciplines. 

Any good TKD school and the operative word is "good", should have a decent self defense curriculum. High kicks have there place, but not as a focal point for self defense. Common sense goes a long, long way in interacting with the martial arts. A big problem is that many students just totally adhear to what the instructor(s) are showing and many instructors in TKD are just on a fast track to make a buck. 

Please keep us up to date on your situation and if any of the suggestions had merit. :asian:


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## psi_radar (Jun 12, 2005)

Gemini said:
			
		

> Moogong, - Excellent advise about the wrestling. I wrestled in HS and it's a great foundation for any MA.
> 
> psi-radar, - If I had the same experiences you did, I would probably feel the same way, so I can certainly understand your opinion. Shame. All I can say is, anyone who wants to start a street fight with a kick to the head is going to get what he deserves. I fall back to "It's not the art, but the practitioner" on this one. There's alot more to TKD than high kicks. We spend as much time with striking techniques as kicking techniques at my school. After all, it isn't Tae do.
> 
> Regards,



I hear you, I only have my own experiences to formulate my judgements. I'm sure there are exceptional TKD practitioners out there as well as schools that teach a more rounded and practical curriculum.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 12, 2005)

A good foundation in Boxing punches and movement patterns and Muay Thai kicking techniques (all low line), knees and elbows is a must for the street.  Followed by a good understanding of wrestling principles and ground fighting techniques (either BJJ or Judo).  It's never failed me yet.  It should be noted that over 9 times out of 10, a good boxer will win any street fight, even against skilled opponents, by virtue of the fact that they are used to hitting people for real and they are used to getting hit.  It's actually easier in a street fight than in a ring, because most street fighters can't box, but they try to use their hands anyway.  Kicks are far fewer in the street than they are in the movies.  If you work on techniques in each of the primary ranges of combat, then you should be on your way to being prepared.


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## Han-Mi (Jun 12, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> A good foundation in Boxing punches and movement patterns and Muay Thai kicking techniques (all low line), knees and elbows is a must for the street. Followed by a good understanding of wrestling principles and ground fighting techniques (either BJJ or Judo). It's never failed me yet. It should be noted that over 9 times out of 10, a good boxer will win any street fight, even against skilled opponents, by virtue of the fact that they are used to hitting people for real and they are used to getting hit. It's actually easier in a street fight than in a ring, because most street fighters can't box, but they try to use their hands anyway. Kicks are far fewer in the street than they are in the movies. If you work on techniques in each of the primary ranges of combat, then you should be on your way to being prepared.


 
I would like to see boxing come back to high schools. It is a brutal learning process, but great for basic self defense. If someone were to wrestle in HS and box in HS, They would definately be well defended. My best argument for TKD is the advanced ability to control distance and use kicks as a distanced attack. Even as a TKD MAist, I must admit that in a street fight I would not kick nearly as much as I do in class sparring, though I believe it is what would allow me to control the distance much better.

I do understand that
MOST fights start within arms length
and
MOST fights end up on the ground
BUT,
NONE of mine have

It's all about your personal experience shaping your perception. This is why we will never all agree, but thatt's what makes the discussions interesting


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## Han-Mi (Jun 12, 2005)

Not that entire post was toward the quote, just the first part about boxing.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 12, 2005)

Han-Mi said:
			
		

> Not that entire post was toward the quote, just the first part about boxing.


I boxed in highschool the very last year that the FFA held their last boxing tournament in 1990.  I guess it was determined after that year that the sport was "too violent" to be a school sanctioned activity.  Mores the pity.


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## Akidorina (Jun 12, 2005)

If you were to be pushed to the ground there are ways to fight you'r attacker while on the ground...You can still do all the kicks you were thought while you are on the ground just remember to be aware and alert at times that are necacarry to be alert in..I was in Akido before I took taekwando and all you do is use your attackers strengh against them,arm holds,flips,and so on.I also took a little of Capoeira as well..It does not matter how high of a kick you have in a street fight the higher the kick is the easeier you'r attacker will see what kick your doing..If they ram you against a wall then you can still knee them in the stomach.I know how you feel but stick with it!


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## dianhsuhe (Jun 12, 2005)

Well, good advice so far...

   A friend of mine who studies TKD was up for his BB about 10 years ago and he invited me to attend his testing, now I know this might be just his school rather than the norm, but I was surprised to see that there was NO CONTACT during any of his techniques over the entire test. (Not counting light sparring 99% kicks) No takedowns, sweeps, throws, certainly no groundwork of any kind, and barely even any contact on his blocks.  I also did not notice any defense against weapons of any kind.  It was VERY cool to watch and he is a dedicated and hard-working martial artist but those techniques and any kind of reality are pretty far apart IMHO-

Before I get flamed by TKD people worldwide, I understand every school is different and maybe this was an exception rather than the rule, but I thought I'd relate the experience.  I am sure there are many TKD or TSD folks who are very tough and street effective!

The good news was his instructor required him to study another martial art (before his BB test) for several months and to report back (like a thesis) with similarities and differences between the two so he trained with me and my teacher in Kara-Ho Kempo.  I think he enjoyed himself and came away with a new perspective on martial arts but he said he could not believe how hard we trained and how hard we hit each other- His kicks were great but he was lacking everywhere else- In short, he was getting destroyed by even low ranking students once they could close the gap at all. And for techniques he had a strong foundation but lacked the fluidity and movement that are so important...

I think the bottom line is to cross-train after you get to BB, if you feel you need it. I always thought it was fun to watch other styles or work out with folks from different disciplines (In a friendly manner)  It is a good sign that you realize you need work in other areas or ranges of fighting. Go forth and learn! 

One of our instructors has been cage-fighting and trains with the MMA/Muay Thai folks and he is adding more ground work to his already devastating striking/and ground-work arsenal.  

Always expand on your base and stay open-minded to other MA folks out there  And no matter what keep on training!

Keep us posted!
James


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 12, 2005)

I'd like to hear from Taekwondo practioners who have actually used their art in a real fight. Theory is great, but real experience might add a little depth to this discussion.  What you "could do" in a fight is always good for a discussion, but "what has happened to me" always gets my attention more.


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## bignick (Jun 12, 2005)

dianhsuhe said:
			
		

> Before I get flamed by TKD people worldwide, I understand every school is different and maybe this was an exception rather than the rule, but I thought I'd relate the experience.


 An all too common exception...

 As far as real fights go...no, I've never been in one. I've never been in a fight situation, I've been in situations that I suppose you could call conflicts or confrontations but my size, demeanor, and confidence have always diffused them before they became physical.


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## bignick (Jun 12, 2005)

I wonder about where the bad TKD comes from...cause it's there and I'm willing to admit it.  I wonder if it's just a matter of scale.  TKD has become so explosively commercially successful that more schools means more bad schools as well.  Or is it a matter emphasis on competition?  I know a lot of TKD people that like to ignore how much competition has affected the art.  They may not talk about it, but we talk about it all the time in judo, and we call it "judo dumb".  "Judo dumb" is thinking only within the restraints of the rules governing competition.  Whenever I randori with someone who's sole or major focus in judo is on competition, whenever I throw a technique - that we allow in our school, but may not be completely competition legal - I always hear the same thing, especially when it worked so well that they never knew what hit them, "You know you couldn't do that at a tournament."  That's fine by me, just like cutting lumber when your building something....you can always take a little more off, or not use a technique or two if you have to....but you can never put more back on the piece of wood and you will never be able to use a technique you never learned or never practiced....


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## Jerry (Jun 13, 2005)

Firstly, any fight-oriented training; especially combined with strength and cardio work (and I've not seen TKD that lacked these), will only serve to help you should you end up in a fight.

Secondly, the more realisticly you train, the less liekly you will be to continue using poor or poorly-understood material, and the less out of yuor element you may feel when a fight occurs.

Thirdly, in regards to TKD as a fighting art: I'm not going to deal with the flames from "but my school doesnt" and focus on the WTF TKD cirriculim. As an art TKD focuses very heavily on only a few techinques. It's hand work lacks the sophistication of most boxing arts, and it's foot work is often low-percentage. In short, I don't consider it a very combative art, and it is certainly vunerable in many ways (such as being taken down).

That said, recent history is replete with people definding themselves using TKD. There is more than one case out there of soemone opening with a kick to the head and killing their opponent at the beginning of the fight (usually from this impact with the concrete when they fell). This is both a statement in TKD's favor (it can work efficiently), and against it (it offers less options than most regarding escilation of force).

My $0.02, for what it's worth.


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## bignick (Jun 13, 2005)

Jerry said:
			
		

> This is both a statement in TKD's favor (it can work efficiently), and against it (it offers less options than most regarding escilation of force).
> 
> My $0.02, for what it's worth.


 Very true...and one of the major reasons I started training in judo and jujutsu, not because I didn't think I could use TKD to defend myself, but because there is little variability in force.  To defend yourself with strikes you can't apply half strength and expect that to control somebody.  You need to go all out - finish it, right then and there...and wasn't always comfortable with that being my only option.


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## dianhsuhe (Jun 14, 2005)

As Jerry mentioned above the more realistic the training is the more likely you are going to be able to defend yourself successfully.  The problem with that buddy of mine and his training was the fact that the only time he experienced any contact was during sparring, and that is controlled and practiced usually only to score points.

When he came to train with us he was not used to defending against a push, grab, or anything close. His first move was almost always a step back to make room for a kick.  And while keeping distance is important sometimes you just can't help being i huging range   He had good instincts but that does not cut it in the street-

Again, I know TKD schools and styles vary and much of this is from the instructor- so your mileage may vary! (I actually started in TKD but only managed to make it to green belt before my teacher moved in with my girlfriend- no joke!)

Cheers!


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## Han-Mi (Jun 15, 2005)

dianhsuhe said:
			
		

> Again, I know TKD schools and styles vary and much of this is from the instructor- so your mileage may vary! (I actually started in TKD but only managed to make it to green belt before my teacher moved in with my girlfriend- no joke!)
> 
> Cheers!


 

WOW!     That's a bad instructor... NO, we don't do that!:whip:


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## pnoy_kickfighter (Jun 16, 2005)

Laborn said:
			
		

> Taekwondo appears to me like a sport, tournament fighting and stuff, well im 15, I have pretty fast and hard kicks, but I have this doubt, that if someone confronts me my leggs alone wont be enough to defend my self, I had another thread like this, but I have to ask again, do you think taekwondo alone would be enough to take on the punks out there? on my block I jog alot, and a few times i've almost been jumped, I usually talk my way out of it, I wont fight unless I have to, but if push comes to shove would taekwondo be enough, I fight other martial artist, and we usually stay back , but in a real fight they rush, charge, tackle you, if someone tackled me to to the ground, i'd be dead meat....but would they get a chance to get me to the ground?
> 
> mabye I should take another style? one more in the way of self defense? what do you guys think?
> 
> ...


 as a fellow TKD practitioner dont change your style but instead have your own fighting method maybe learning a little about grappling and close range and still keeping the "essence" of TKD. Then again you always dont expect to win for example 5 guys with weapons gives you a lower chance to survive. But always be aware and be careful.


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## Tony (Jul 26, 2005)

From what I know about Taekwondo I believe in sparring and tournaments that you are not allowed to punch to the face but you can kick to the face!
This is all very well and good if you have the flexiblility of a ballet dancer but what if you don't! I would never use any kick that goes above the waist! I am pretty flexible but high kicks leave you vulnerable. So if I were you I would aim for your attackers legs, shins, knee joints but  don't just think about using your legs, do use your hands, punches, elbows, eye gouges and and whatever else you can.

If you feel your training is lacking certain things then possibly look to other martial arts, especially ones that incorporate throws, escapes, submisions, holds etc. In my Kung fu class we do a lot of throws, holds and submissions and even learning how to defend against weapons. 
Visualize how you would deal with imaginery opponents and what kind of techniques you would use. In some of our classes we use throws and submissions in our sparring. This seems like a more realistic way of fighting as out in the street you could be tackled and many people like to grapple.


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## Grenadier (Jul 26, 2005)

What does your Tae Kwon Do school teach?  There are many types of schools.  Some will teach with an emphasis on Olympic-style rules (no punches to the head, no fake punches to the head, etc), others are McDojo-ish, and some are very well-rounded to the point where they are similar to many a good Okinawan or Japanese martial arts school.

If your dojang only teaches you to fight using Olympic-style rules, and does not teach you practical fighting techniques, groundfighting, or grappling, then you could be in for a world of hurt, should you get into a street brawl.  While it's possible you could end the fight before someone gets a chance, the odds aren't in your favor.  

If, on the other hand, your dojang competently teaches you practical fighting applications, as well as much-needed grappling and groundwork, then you'll be as well-prepared as any.  I was fortunate to have an excellent sabumnim that made darn sure that we trained in close quarters fighting, grappling, and ground fighting, as well as sharpening up all hand techniques as well.  Yes, we would still train for some Olympic-style fighting, but he always emphasized that what went on in such competitions stayed in such competitions.  

If your dojang is a McDojo / McDojang, then the disasterous results have an excellent chance of occurring, regardless of what was taught.


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## still learning (Jul 27, 2005)

Hello,  What's the best for Street fights......Will your TKD work? Depends?

 How many martial art schools teach you to prepare for a street fight?  w/no rules and any goes including anything around you can be use to fight back with?

 If you don't train for this type of fighting than the answer will mostly likely be NO for TKD. (against a regular street fighter).  

 Your eyes will be a mostly likely tarket for a street fighter,it is for us!  and anytime you can take someone down to the ground to pound, you will do it.

 .....again it depends who, what, where, and how many?...best to avoid and leave...if not run away.................best to be alive tomorrow.....Aloha


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## Mark Lynn (Jul 30, 2005)

Laborn

Number one: educate yourself on the mindset and the realities of the real world outside of your school.  Just like you are doing here by posting a question and getting a wide range of advice from a wide cross section of people.  There are plenty of books out there that deal with this kind of material Marc "Animal" McFarn, Geoff Thomson (?), Hock Hochheim, Tony Blauer (?), and others all have material (in some form or another DVDs, tapes, books, web sites etc. etc.) that deal with this subject material on self defense.

I believe that once you educate yourself you can adapt your training to include a more realistic way to train for SD without really leaving your current/base style.  I'll give you a few examples what I mean.  (posible long post warning   )

1) Think and study your root or basic techniques and blocks.  Several different applications can come from these movements, you just need to be aware of what they are.
     a)  For years in the 80's I would attend seminars in JKD and I took a lot of abuse for being in TKD.  However at one seminar we went through a knife defense and the first block was a standard upward block (but with an open hand to grab the weapon hand with).  Later on there was a throw/take down that came from the root movements of the outside /inside block that I learned in TKD.  One of the disruptions/takedowns in the silat material is the same basic movements as stepping back in forward stance.
     b)In the filipino martial arts (that I now study) many of the disarms and such in the empty hand material can be related to the same movements I learned as blocks in TKD.  The foot work is similar, and all of the years I spent moving up and down the floor in fwd stance is the same as when I'm trying to get in when the stick has been swung past me and its time to crash.
     c) Look at the structures of the kicks what comes out first your knee, what do you use in close but your knees.  So train to use them in close, your body already knows what to do, you just have to train your mind when to use it. 

2) As stated previously low kicks to the leg works well but you must train for them.  In our dojo we did this, but I found it was very hard for people in other schools to spar against and they didn't like it.  
     a) I sparred with one TKD BB (outside of the school) and he couldn't handle it, messed him all up, word got around to me from other people at work that I fought dirty and such cause I kicked to his knees and legs, and I didn't touch them.  (But I could have   )  

3) Adjusting your training to include SD.  There has been a lot of posts on grappling and the need for those skills.  I would agree but with a need for SD. 
     a) Another time I was working out with some San Soo guys and were sparring free for all.  As I was being set up for a throw I stuck my fingers in his eyes (again controled of course and I had trained for this) and went with the throw.  When we grappled I did the same thing.
     b) Hock has us go through a drill where we grapple on the ground and one person goes for submission lock of any sort and the other goes for the eyes.  Eyes have won the vast majority of the time.  This doesn't mean you have to take up grappling just adjust the intention of the drill.
     c) On the subject of kicking, Hock in his courses again has the student kick from the ground from laying on your side etc. etc.  It is still the same type of kick but slightly modified since you are on the ground.
     d) In TKD we use to do one step self defense/sparring.  Adjust it slightly.  Both students stand close together as if talking (no ready stances or Kias telling the person I'm ready attack me here) then one takes a swing at the other.  (Here a haymaker type works well) And the defender defends against the punch free style (as in SD type techniques).

In closing TKD or any system really can be good for SD only your must train for it.  While some are better in teaching SD than others, I believe they are all different paths up the same mountain.  What matters are the guide (the teacher) and the climber (the student).

Mark


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## swiftpete (Jul 30, 2005)

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> As stated previously low kicks to the leg works well but you must train for them. In our dojo we did this, but I found it was very hard for people in other schools to spar against and they didn't like it.
> a) I sparred with one TKD BB (outside of the school) and he couldn't handle it, messed him all up, word got around to me from other people at work that I fought dirty and such cause I kicked to his knees and legs, and I didn't touch them. (But I could have  )


Same thing happened to me when i was sparring against some TKD people at a school i went to. I was only really training kickboxing at the time but was trying out the class. Knee kicks and sweeps just seem natural to me and always have, i thought the high grades would be doing them/defending as well but after a while i was approached by the teacher and told to stop as they 'didn't do that sort of thing here' Pretty gay that students with several yrs training in martial arts hadn't encountered a knee kick before.
I'm sure lots of dojos do teach that sort of thing but not that one! I didn't go back. Anyway now i'm a hardcore super rock ninja i don't need to worry about shopping for different martial arts classes..!


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## Mark Lynn (Jul 30, 2005)

swiftpete said:
			
		

> Same thing happened to me when i was sparring against some TKD people at a school i went to. I was only really training kickboxing at the time but was trying out the class. Knee kicks and sweeps just seem natural to me and always have, i thought the high grades would be doing them/defending as well but after a while i was approached by the teacher and told to stop as they 'didn't do that sort of thing here' Pretty gay that students with several yrs training in martial arts hadn't encountered a knee kick before.
> I'm sure lots of dojos do teach that sort of thing but not that one! I didn't go back. Anyway now i'm a hardcore super rock ninja i don't need to worry about shopping for different martial arts classes..!



In my experience not that many practice kicks to the knee, due to safety and liability issues.  However that is why I said you have to train for that, and many times outside of the class at that.  In my TKD instructors home dojo we had that kind of quality control and that enviroment to spar with those type of techniques (knees elbows, ground work etc. etc.) and not get hurt or sue each other.

My point was that it's many times not the art but how it is practiced as to whether or not it is effective for SD.

Mark


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## swiftpete (Jul 30, 2005)

yeah i can see that, training with eye techniques sounds like the sort of thing you need to know and trust each other to do!

Interesting points in your post, the taking a punch at each other without warning is the sort of thing we do sometimes in my class, its a different feeling when you arent setting up the technique then running through it time and again but just going with what happens. Nice feeling when you surprise yourself with a technique too that you didn't know you were going to do!


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 31, 2005)

taekwondo and judo are both stlyes that can be either sport, art, or self defense. alone either style will get you by, but neither is really going to be very, very effective. at anouther place i put that no one style is better then the other. still true. but in the long run to defend your self you should learn all of the following:

1. the ablitly to kick

2. the ablitly to punch

3. the abltily to grapple (judo/wrestling stuff)

4. the usige of comen weapons used by street thugs (knives, guns, chains and so forth) and a weapon called a "pockette stick"

5. the ablilty to defend against the abouve mentioned weapons

6. the abliltly to talk your way out of a threating stituation

7. the ablitly to run

8. knowing when to talk, when to run, when it is acceptible to fight, when it is is acceptible to criple, and (most grimly) when it is accepltable to kill

know rember that an art is not a sport, a sport is not an art, and neither will save your life against 10 detirmened pot heads with guns. what ever you do should include my abouve mentioned 8 items and combine art, sport, and self defense. if it doesn't while you will be skilled in some way to show at a tournament, give yourself a path and save your life you still truely need the rest.

o.k. so i have got your attention (well probly not i'm not done ranting so shut up and listen). why those items. well people who have strong, flexible legs will be able to capitiles on that. even if not, a well place and some what strong kick to the side of the knee will break it and your oppenent wont what to play that much any more. what about punching? well if your like me and don't have very srong legs, you can always punch. and a good punch on either the floating rib or solar peluxus will knock the wind out of them, or possbly break their rib. once again they wont want to play that much anymore. and grappling. keep in mind that appernitly 95% of fights end up going to the ground. and a good pin or joint lock will make your opponent immobile, and the he or she will have to stop.
now if your opponent decides not to play fair and uses a weapon or a group and you don't know how to disarm someone, well you can find out first hand wether or not you have been praying to the right god. and then what, stand their looking pritie??? no you cut his guts out if he takes a one more step towards you. what is a pockette stick is probly your next question. a pockette stick (yawarra or one of two other names i cann't quite rember) is a japanese weapon that is used to pound into your opponent. it is about the lingth of a pin (and that is amazingly the appilcation) any hammering strike can, with little to no twicking, become a pockette stick strike.
if you know when it is best, and how to talk you can go on your merry on the same path, with no punches thrown. if you know when, and how to run you can go on your living your happy, not bruised or brocken life. if you know when to fight you, well know when it would be pointless to run or talk. crippling is a major taboo now adays, but if you have to, well. and killing, also a major taboo. but if you have to.
any ways, thats my rant.

sweet Bright bless your blade

john

ohh and if you haven't yet, read that thing about canada outlawing martial arts


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## Mark Lynn (Jul 31, 2005)

In regards to the eye techniques.

What generally happened was that when someone would go to grapple or take you down, You generally would get fingers pressing on the forehead or a hand stuck in your face, generally we excepted OK you got me, I'm blinded.

It wasn't as if we were striking at the eyes, but rather you got them when it went from sparring (hitting and kicking mode) to the grappling.  Just like the knee kicks, we didn't kick the knees, rather we'd kick at them with control and pull them.  Again you could tell when it would have been nailed and you respected the other person getting inside your defenses.

But must schools would never let you get away with techniques like that.

Mark


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## Jerry (Aug 1, 2005)

> Interesting points in your post, the taking a punch at each other without warning is the sort of thing we do sometimes in my class, its a different feeling when you arent setting up the technique then running through it time and again but just going with what happens. Nice feeling when you surprise yourself with a technique too that you didn't know you were going to do!


 It seems like really bad training to me. Learning to bring down your surprise response because it's your buddy surprising you seems something of a disservice when the real sucker-punch is coming. 

I know one of the worse things that happened to my reactions was when I had a co-worker who liked to play around. Didn't want to deck him and so untrained some rather deliberately trained violent responses. I finally had to sit and have a chat with him to stop.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 1, 2005)

o.k. i forgot somethings. first of all a tackle. in some circles a tackle that is used as an attack is sometimes called a "bull rush". the best way to defend against a bull rush is taught in wrestling. basicly, lunge done on them. you land on topin what looks like, well their is no real good (and still moreditly appropet). and if you ask your teacher to teach you something he/she wouldn't normaly teach, well proceede with caution. some will explode all over you and you'll being cleaning the embarsment off for years. others will probly be like 'o.k. just let me find some stuff to teach you'.as for weapons in taekwondo, well the translation should tell you not to expect it. you know"the way of hands and feet", not "the way of hands, feet and weapons". orginally taekwon do didn't have weapons, sop most of the time if you find a taekwondoka doing a weapon set, it's not tradtional taekwondo. i beleivie that taekwon, and hrangdo teach weapons, but i don't know. and don't look to hard for either styles, i thinkthat they are really only taught now adays, in N.Korea.

sweet Bright bless your blade

John


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## swiftpete (Aug 1, 2005)

Jerry said:
			
		

> It seems like really bad training to me. Learning to bring down your surprise response because it's your buddy surprising you seems something of a disservice when the real sucker-punch is coming.
> 
> I know one of the worse things that happened to my reactions was when I had a co-worker who liked to play around. Didn't want to deck him and so untrained some rather deliberately trained violent responses. I finally had to sit and have a chat with him to stop.


Oh no i didn't mean like that. I didn't mean we'd walk in and throw surprise punches at each other. I mean actually during training when you're partnered up, the other person throws an attack at you and you defend, you know they're going to throw one, just not exactly when and where. I also agree that playfighting style punches thrown around are really annoying and totally pointless!
My friend did throw one at me a few weeks ago in a club, coming at me from the side, i hadn't noticed him coming and i caught the fist and put a wrist lock on without realising, that was quite cool, but all my friends know that i hate random playfighting and random punches thrown and generally don't do it to me!


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## ave_turuta (Aug 1, 2005)

swiftpete said:
			
		

> Pretty gay that students with several yrs training in martial arts hadn't encountered a knee kick before.
> I'm sure lots of dojos do teach that sort of thing but not that one! I didn't go back. Anyway now i'm a hardcore super rock ninja i don't need to worry about shopping for different martial arts classes..!


  With all due respect, can you clarify your use of the words "pretty gay" in the above sentence? 

 On the other hand, and with regards to what you encountered at that particular school, it was your obligation as a student to know both the philosophy of the school as well as their training method and abide by the rules. If you come into a class you are not familiar with and start throwing kicks and punches around as you darn please, don't be surprised if people either refuse to spar with you or deride you. It is disrespectful, to say the least. I know if you came to my school and started to throw kicks to the knees, you would be warned once, only to be asked to leave if/when you refused to comply. It is only fair to the other students, who perhaps do not wish to be flying ninjas. 

 I know in my school you woudl get a good, rounded education that included both Olympic-style sparring as well as serious self-defense techniques, including punches to the face, knees, and other areas that are off-limits in competition TKD. Equally, a BB test in our school can last anywhere from 7 to an unknown number of hours (last test lasted from 3 pm until 1:30 am): _all _aspiring belts MUST spar _everybody else_ in the room: full contact, no excuses or you don't finish the test. After doing techniques and forms for several hours, one steps and self defense techniques, combination kicks, sparring everybody in the room, _then _you get to do breaking. So yeah, some schools actually care about providing people with a rounded TKD education. 

 Peace, 
   A.T.


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## swiftpete (Aug 1, 2005)

I wasn't throwing them 'as i darned pleased' as you put it, we were sparring, i obviously wasn't putting them in with any intent to cause real damage, just contact with the area. I wasn't training in ninjutsu at the time and i certainly hadn't gone into the class to show off or prove myself, I don't believe in that sort of thing in martial arts, if i ever go into another class i'm always respectful to the instructor. We were just training. At the time I had relatively limited experience in martial arts, was looking for a style/class and didn't find that the class was effectively non contact til after i'd been training, nowadays I would find out what sort of a class it was before I started.

Yeah i was surprised that knee kicks dumbfounded the class as I had expected that all martial arts practitioners would have defense against basic attacks like that, i was just sparring in the way i had sparred in the martial arts classes i had taken up to that point. The people in the class were high level martial artists, for their class anyhow, which was why i didn't think that i had to restrict my techniques in that way.
I'm happy for you that your school teaches a rounded curriculum and all that, I never said that all TKD schools were like this, there are different schools of different quality all over the world. 
People like different things from their training, some prefer contact and others don't. This was a class for people that didn't, not what i was after.
So don't make out that I think of myself as some super powered ninja power ranger type, that's not the case at all.

But a question I do have to ask..
Why wouldn't people want to be a flying ninja?!!


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## ave_turuta (Aug 1, 2005)

swiftpete said:
			
		

> The people in the class were high level martial artists, for their class anyhow, which was why i didn't think that i had to restrict my techniques in that way.
> 
> But a question I do have to ask..
> Why wouldn't people want to be a flying ninja?!!


 Granted, but I still don't understand why you would throw below the belt kicks while sparring at a TKD school, specially if you are not familiar with what is that particular school! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Even if you are not aiming to hurt (I didn't think you were) it sort of throws people off. We have some folks in our school who came from schools where there was little to no contact, and at first they seemed worried but got quickly used to kicking hard... 

 As for the flying ninja... hehehe. I guess I would like to fly, but at this point in my life, I think I would look more like a flying potato sack than anything else being just a beginner 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 Take care, 
  A.T.


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## Marginal (Aug 2, 2005)

swiftpete said:
			
		

> Same thing happened to me when i was sparring against some TKD people at a school i went to. I was only really training kickboxing at the time but was trying out the class. Knee kicks and sweeps just seem natural to me and always have, i thought the high grades would be doing them/defending as well but after a while i was approached by the teacher and told to stop as they 'didn't do that sort of thing here' Pretty gay that students with several yrs training in martial arts hadn't encountered a knee kick before.


It's stupid to to into a new class and enter a sparring situation without asking about what rules they operate under. 

Usually it's not, "White belt gets to make up whatever rules they please!"


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## TigerWoman (Aug 2, 2005)

Sparring rules are different than self defense.  We use knees and do sweeps, but not in sparring.  You would be warned then barred from sparring if you continued to try to use knees and sweep. 

We once had a young Indonesian transfer student who at first in sparring would throw up a knee defense and try to catch your kick.  He learned real fast there were reasons not to try to catch kicks in TKD.  After a warning from catching a kick from a newbie and making them fall, he sparred a higher belt who kicked him into the wall.  Couldn't catch that one.  He was then asked to sit down.  TW


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 2, 2005)

in coung nhuwe teach alot of sweeps and leg catches (called shovel blocks). you cann't use them though, until you  get a brown belt (two ranks from black), then you can use them against other brown belts and folks with more rank then you. so yes it is pretty hilarious to watch black belts spar because they normally end up falling ontop of one anouther. we may teach how to grapple and how to fall, but that doesn't mean we rember how (lol).

sweet Brighit bless your blade

John


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## ave_turuta (Aug 2, 2005)

coungnhuka said:
			
		

> in coung nhuwe teach alot of sweeps and leg catches (called shovel blocks). you cann't use them though, until you get a brown belt (two ranks from black), then you can use them against other brown belts and folks with more rank then you. so yes it is pretty hilarious to watch black belts spar because they normally end up falling ontop of one anouther. we may teach how to grapple and how to fall, but that doesn't mean we rember how (lol).
> 
> sweet Brighit bless your blade
> 
> John


 Different arts, different rules! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peace, 
 A.T.


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## FearlessFreep (Aug 2, 2005)

Back to the topic of Taekwondo and defense....

 One thing I've been talking about with my instructor is that in our self-defense training, we work a lot on evasions, traps, pressure points, SJM, and takedowns.  Pretty much not 'taekwondo' types of moves.  I asked him that, since we spend a lot of our time working on punches and kicks that our self-defense should be based around those techniques, since we repeat them so many times and practice them for power and speed, etc...He didn't directly answer that, but he did have us come up with scenarios and work out different ways to defend against different kinds of attacks.  One thing I picked up from it, which I'm assuming was intentional, was that a strike, an elbow to the face or sidekick to the stomach or roundhouse kick to the knee, is a fairly violent response, a fairly high level of esculation.  A lot of the things we work on for traps, SJM, and takedowns is to try to control the encounter before it comes to the point of breaking limbs and crushing faces.

 I think there is a difference between 'self-defense' and 'street fight', in terms of mentality in terms of what you are trying to accomplish.  I think 'fighting' should be a part of self-defense, but it's just a part...maybe the last part, the part that maybe you hope you don't get to.

 So, we incorporate some hand techniques, etc..into our self-defense because in a lot of ways it seems to me that Taekwondo is really designed not to 'stop' a opponent, but to 'beat' an opponent.  Or as my instructor explained, it takes a high level of control and precision to use strikes as a control measure.

 Anyway, just some thoughts.  I think sometimes there is a mentality that 'self-defense' means 'beating up on the guy who comes at you' and I think that's just a part of the whole picture.  Especially in today's litigous society, being able to go through an encounter with the proper level of response is important, everything from the verbal diffusing of  the encounter to having the peace of mind and confidence to walk away to being able to control them without damaging them to being able to get them to back down with different levels of pain up to exchanging blows.

 I shouldn't sell TKD short because there is a lot in there that I think applies, if you consider it and train for it.  Starting with simply using your footwork and your balance to maintain your own control.  Judging distance to keep yourself at a safe distance.  Blocks are obvious but blocks can also be traps if you put the hand motion in.  A trap with some sjm becomes a way of controlling an opponent, making it difficult for them to move and can allow you to add pressure as needed to let them know you *can* hurt them if they don't back down.  A inner block into the elbow causes damage, but an inner block or knifehand strike into he tricep with the same motion just hurts a lot and make it hard to use that arm.  Just some examples but I think that Taekwondo has, within it. the motions and movements and techniques that can be used to control a person without beating the snot out of them.  A lot of it is sorta hidden in there...it's not in the sparring but you can see it in the poomse if you look for it.  There is a lot  that can be done before you get to the point of sidekicks to the jaw...or rather, there is a lot that *should* be done before you get to that point.


 Anyway, just some random thoughts on taekwondo, self-defense, street fighting, and how it all works together


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## FearlessFreep (Aug 2, 2005)

Just curious but how do people define 'sweep' as I can think of a few different usages of the term

 1) One motion we use that I call the 'step behind' is simply as you move into an opponent, you place your leg behind their leg.  From here there are two possible motions.  One is that you hook back with your knee so that the back of your lower leg strikes the back of their knee, causing their knee to bend and they lose balance.  The other motion is that you place your toes on the ground pretty close to their heel.  Then, as you straighten your leg and drive your heel down, it causes their knee to bend again and they lose support on that leg.  Either way, the goal is the same, to cause a lose of balance in one leg.  This is usually accompanied by some upper body motion as part of a takedown (the sweep unbalances the opponent to the takedown is easier)

 2) Kicking from the side.  A roundhouse kick into the side of the leg, either at the knee or the lower leg, to get the opponents leg off the ground and unbalance them.  Done to the knee, it can break the knee.

 3) Kicking from behind.  A roundhouse kick to the back of the knee to get the knee to bend and, again, lose balance on that leg


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## Adept (Aug 2, 2005)

Jay, you've got the right idea there about self defense. We don't want to be punching and kicking people if we can avoid it (heck, we don't even want to have to use our SD techniqies if we can avoid it). One of the first things I tell people when I teach them SD is that if they have to use the techniques I'm showing them, they've already failed. Situational awareness, basic common sense and verbal judo should, ideally, eliminate the need for a physical confrontation.

 In terms of using SJM and other things: An important part of SD training is scenario training. Pad both participants up (and make sure they have a reasonable level of control. Redman suits and their equivalent are a good tool, but expensive) and have the attacker come at the defender, full on. Screaming, shouting abuse, swinging wild, full power haymakers, pushing and shoving, etc. Put some background into it. _"You're in a bar, and this guy thinks you been coming on to his girlfriend."_ or _"A bum asks you for change, and becomes aggresive and violent when you refuse."_ This is also a good time to incorporate the old rubber knife. Try and make it as realistic as possible, so you have experience trying to use those techniques in a fast-moving adrenaline-pumping scenario.


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## swiftpete (Aug 2, 2005)

Marginal said:
			
		

> It's stupid to to into a new class and enter a sparring situation without asking about what rules they operate under.
> 
> Usually it's not, "White belt gets to make up whatever rules they please!"


Yeah I know what you're saying, nowadays I would clarify it first, I have lots more martial arts experience now, understand how classes work etc..but at the time i was young and just loved to kick!


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 2, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> Back to the topic of Taekwondo and defense....
> 
> I think there is a difference between 'self-defense' and 'street fight', in terms of mentality in terms of what you are trying to accomplish.  I think 'fighting' should be a part of self-defense, but it's just a part...maybe the last part, the part that maybe you hope you don't get to.



Fearless
I agre with you here.  But I think the streetfighting aspect is a small part, of the whole issue of SD.  I think it's a myth that people will be sparring or fighting in the street.  Rather you are attacked and its chaos and you have to deal with it.

You made some excellent points in your post. 

On your posts about the sweeps

On your first example another way to get the leg bent is to also strike or kick the leg.  Same motions you describe.

On sweeping from the side you can kick along side of the foot in a motion across the body (when the weight is off of it) as a sweep.

Or  from the front you can step back with your leg on the inside of your opponent's leg (as if your were stepping back into a front stance) and sweep their leg to the rear.  This works real well if you have an arm bar and you want to control him to the ground.

Mark


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## ave_turuta (Aug 3, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> Situational awareness, basic common sense and verbal judo should, ideally, eliminate the need for a physical confrontation.


 I absolutely agree. The other day we were at the mall and, for some bizarre reason and with no warning (it could be that my partner and I were holding hands or that this person didn't like the shoes I was wearing, for all I know) this girl came on to us and started yelling and screaming at us (my partner, in complete shock). She lifted her arm as if to punch my partner. Almost instinctively, I immediately put my body between her and my girlfriend and with a very adamant hand gesture aimed at her face (not a punch, just a gesture) and stern tone of voice asked her to leave. What I noticed was that the minute I created a semblance of a physical barrier between us, she immediately withdrew, turned around, and kept screaming, but this time in the opposite direction. It was all a matter of seconds. I know I would have certainly responded to her forthcoming attack, but I am glad I reacted the way I did and saved us some trouble. It is different however when we walk in our neighborhood... then we must be really aware of our surroundings, especially since we don't have a car 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and there are plenty of guys who seem to have taken harrassment up as some kind of a sport. 

 Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the situations that men and women face in terms of attacks, etc. etc. are very different in nature and generally require different ways of responding... but ever since I started practicing TKD even my partner says she's noticed how much more secure I seem every time I feel threatened by something or someone around me. 

_I know what you're thinking: guys fight in bars, girls fight in malls???_


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## Adept (Aug 3, 2005)

ave_turuta said:
			
		

> Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the situations that men and women face in terms of attacks, etc. etc. are very different in nature and generally require different ways of responding.


 Absolutely. In fact, I think women face much more serious danger in terms of attacks. Most of the time, a guy will get into a blue because someones ego has been damaged and they feel a punch-on is the best way to regain that lost 'face'. These sorts of situations are relatively easy to avoid and de-escalate.

 Whereas when a man attacks a woman, it's often for much more sinister reasons, and much harder to avoid. The physical nature of the attacks often involves much more grappling and grabbing than does a confrontation between men. This is where it comes back to realistic live training, and making full use of scenario drills.


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