# Wing Chun Technique



## mvbrown21 (May 21, 2011)

Hey guys,

I thought it be interesting for all of us to share our basic technique with each other from the different lineages to see the subtle and not so subtle differences.  Footwork is probably the biggest thing that I personally want to see.  I don't want this to start a lineage war or anything of that sort, just an honest sharing that maybe all of us could learn from. 

Thanks

Here's a video I threw together last night that has the 2nd and 3rd parts of Sil Lum Tao, some single man technique, and footwork.  I'll try to get the other forms up some time if I can find a place where I can frame my shot wider.

This is the Ho Kam Ming/Augustine Fong line:








_


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (May 21, 2011)

how long have you been practicing?


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## mvbrown21 (May 21, 2011)

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> how long have you been practicing?



A little over 10 years


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## geezer (May 21, 2011)

mvbrown21 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I thought it be interesting for all of us to share our basic technique with each other from the different lineages to see the subtle and not so subtle differences.  Footwork is probably the biggest thing that I personally want to see.  I don't want this to start a lineage war or anything of that sort, just an honest sharing that maybe all of us could learn from. --Thanks[/url]



Sorry, I don't have a video of my footwork to post. That's just as well too, since with my screwed up ankles, my personal footwork is not a very typical representation of my lineage: Yip Man-Leung Ting-me (although now a member of a separate organization, the NVTO). 

So I guess I'll just make some comments about your video. First, I really like the interior of your house. Lots of artwork on the walls and a piano in the corner. Nice. I live in the better part of Phoenix. That's to say, the older part, _not_ the pricier part. But, as a native Arizonan, I'd move to Tucson in a flash if circumstances pemitted!

Now to the footwork. I notice you turn both feet simultaneously, pivoting on your heels. That's the first method I learned, but Leung Ting insisted that I re-learn turning, pivoting one foot at a time, on the center of the sole of the foot, using knee adduction to move the foot. The advantage is that you are very rooted with your center of gravity mid-way between toe and heel, and with one foot stationary and gripping the floor at any moment. The disadvantage is possible loss of speed. The Fong method is really fast.

As for advancing steps, you appear to have something like a 70-30 or 60-40 rear to front weighting ratio. Under LT I learned a full back weighted stance. It makes stepping hard work at first, but it really frees up your front leg. Another thing, when you have one leg forward in an advancing stance, you favor a slightly open alignment with your front toe on a line with your rear heel. We favor a linear alignment with the front foot directly in front of the rear, with both angled to the side 45 degrees. The open alignment may offer a bit more lateral stability and, perhaps, make it easier to kick through with your rear leg. The closed alignment offers a narrower target and better groin protection.

Finally, and I don't fully understand it, but you have a very _bouncy_ way of moving and stepping... almost bobbing as you move. I don't know if this is a characteristic of your lineage or a personal thing. Maybe doing WC just makes you really happy? I know it can have that effect on me. Oh well. Either way, I was taught that there was a "right way and wrong way" to do all these steps. But I don't really believe that. I think that the different approaches we see by prominent masters represent their personal preferences, and that each probably trades some benefits for some risks. When we decide which way to go, we should make a careful benefit vs. cost analysis. It's kind of like what you were posting on that other forum about waking up one day with your eyes finally opened wide about the limitations inherent in this art that you love. I didn't respond to your thread, but I totally agree. I got to the same point in my early thirties after about 10 years in the art. But unlike you, I ended up dropping out completely for a very long time. Bad choice. Probably a better choice is to hang in there, cross-train, share ideas, and develop to whatever your personal potential is. Good luck.. and if I ever get down to Tucson, we should get together.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (May 21, 2011)

mvbrown21 said:


> A little over 10 years



Nice, i enjoyed the vid but why didnt you put the first part of SNT in the vid?  
I just started so i don't think i can offer any advice though , bully did an awesome analysis though


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## wtxs (May 21, 2011)

geezer said:


> The *open alignment* may offer a bit more lateral stability and, perhaps, make it easier to kick through with your rear leg. The closed alignment offers a narrower target and better groin protection.
> 
> Finally, and I don't fully understand it, but you have a very _bouncy_ way of moving and stepping... almost bobbing as you move.



mvbrown21, please take this as an constructive assessment, and it's ONLY MHO.

Along the line of what Geezer pointed out, the "open alignment" of you stance is an open invitation for attack ... should be at least an half way "close the door" stance.

Most of your advancing steps are the "open alignment", ie like your are walking naturally, I did not see any "circle  stepping" except towards the end where you changing from right side advancing to the left.  Chance of getting tagged of the lower halve is extremely high ... of course you could defend it, but since your legs and feet are in motion, which mean you'll have to use your hand(s), and leaves your upper gates not fully protected, expose you to a whole other set of danger ... 

Bobbing and weaving are extra movement your don't need ... they get in the way of your timing and afford your opponent a chance to read you and move in on the "half beat".    

Over all ... I like it.


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## mvbrown21 (May 22, 2011)

Hey guys, thanks for the civil and constructive criticism.  I appreciate it and I think it's healthy to not only learn the way another system does it, but to also hear vulnerabilities that others see.

The footwork that I presented was a fair representation of the Fong system and definitely, as Geezer pointed out, favors speed and timing over a "protectionist" structure so to speak.  I think it comes from the idea that Wing Chun, if it's going to be effective in most situations, is meant as an offensive system where you don't give your opponent the opportunity to attack your vulnerabilities.  The whole "the best defense is a better offense" saying.  The majority of the footwork section in the video was just basic demonstration as well, with only the last couple combination examples being how it might be used in application.  There is a large emphasis on controlling the opponent and using timing on the opponent within the Fong system that greatly reduces the chances of the opponent using those weaknesses on you.  And while, myself and most others are not too good at "sticky legs", Fong himself is pretty amazing at it and will give you a run for your money if you try to get a leg attack in on him.

As far as the bouncing goes there's two things going on there.  Part of it is my arms are really relaxed making them kind of move with my structure so to speak and the other part is that I have found, personally, that in flow with most people, it can be very effective to drop your center of gravity, whether in a deflection attempt of a strong incoming force or to use it as a sort of recoil action to generate an even more powerful explosion into the opponents structure.  It works for Boxers and it works for me!  The two together might make it look more bouncy than it really is and I understand that criticism.  As far as someone catching my timing, I'm sure it's probably possible, but that's one thing that I am very thankful for from the Fong system.  Timing is, hands down, the single biggest attribute you can gain from this system!  Watch Fong anytime and even though they're just demos, hopefully you can see what I'm talking about.  Also bouncing or dropping your center of gravity is acceptable within the Wing Chun system when avoiding attacks whether by deflection or just straight avoidance.  It's called Chaam Geng.  I just added on the Boxer application.

I didn't do the first part of Sil Lum Tao simply because it's really slow and I didn't want a long video.

I appreciate your guys responses and am looking forward to seeing others examples if possible.  And Geezer, if you ever come down to the last frontier  , let me know! 

Matt


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## bully (May 22, 2011)

Nice vid, and I agree nice house too!!

I am not really qualified to comment but I found that interesting, the footwork was way better then mine...not difficult tbh ;-)
Your stance looked wider than I am used too when you were moving at points and the side steps were new to me but I liked them. I saw the bobbing but but it didnt mean too much to me, by the time I had thought about it I imagine you would have punched me!!

Great to see some vids things up on here, I may think about it as the comments have been constructive and respectful.


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## mook jong man (May 22, 2011)

Not a big fan of the bouncing movement I have to admit , it's  extranneous movement not in keeping with principles of  economy of movement and conservation of energy.

There are times when a dip in the stance is needed and I feel those times are when you have latched somebody behind the neck and are about to thrust a knee into their bladder , drop an elbow strike on someone or execute a close range stamp kick to the back of the knee , but other than those circumstances it is just not needed.

I feel that you would benefit more from just relaxing and maintaining your stance at the correct height , apart from those times that I already mentioned.

In my lineage we do not use a lead leg stance our fighting stance is the yjkym , what I noticed is that you have a tendency to let your feet stray from being toed in as you move , this means potential force from your whole body is being leaked out to the sides and you might not be generating the amount of force that you should be capable of .

With your mobility training might I suggest taking a more fluid and flowing approach , constantly moving in all directions (forward ,back , side ,diagonal ) whilst maintaining the stance .

Concentrate mainly on moving explosively forward with half steps and large full steps and also work on what we call "planing" that is where you are still moving forward but your body is orientated on a angle , also practice side stepping out on a diagonal with your body orientated 45 degrees.

These should cover most of the situations you might find yourself in .


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## wtxs (May 22, 2011)

mvbrown21 said:


> And while, myself and most others are not too good at "*sticky legs", Fong himself is pretty amazing at it *and will give you a run for your money if you try to get a leg attack in on him.



Circle stepping movement is an important part of the WC tool set, we place heavy emphasis on the circle stepping when training our foot work.

Give credit where it's due, but I'm too lazy to look at the back post ,,, the one about why you have your lower leg against that of your opponent's.  Visualize that to be the first half of the circle step, your are setting up an leg trap to break his structure (or his knee) or setup an trip/throw.  If he start to pull back (unstable structure), you move in and finish with the second half of the step, making contact with his leg/ankle on the other side, affecting another leg trap, this can be applied to the inside or outside of the leg, which again can turn into an tripping/throwing action.

Chi Gerk/sticky leg is an product of the inside and outside "circle" action, be it applied while in motion/advancing (circle stepping) or not.


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## wtxs (May 22, 2011)

bully said:


> Great to see some vids things up on here, I may think about it as the comments have been constructive and respectful.



:asian::asian::asian:


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## billc (May 22, 2011)

I do not study wing chun but I have always been interested in it.  If you do more videos, it would be nice to see how you work against a partner.  Just a suggestion.


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## yak sao (May 22, 2011)

My old sifu






 
My sound isn't working so it may not be in English, but still a fair representation of the WT side of things


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## wtxs (May 22, 2011)

yak sao said:


> My old sifu
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Excellent videos demo the circling step and the concepts of chi gerk with its many applications.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (May 22, 2011)

yak sao said:


> My old sifu
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i've read about emin boztepe.


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## tenzen (May 22, 2011)

I would post a video but my camera went to **** a few months back. 

I would like to say that I don't really get the bouncing part. I mean I read why your doing it, but its wasted movement in my opinion. So again I agree with mook.
Also I think your bouncing may be fine in practice but in actuall application might throw off your timing.


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## mvbrown21 (May 22, 2011)

Just go to my YouTube page and watch the "wing chun flow" videos if you haven't already seen them.  You can see when I use it there.  Part 1 we start off pretty slow so be patient and part 2 is against my Sifu.  The "bouncing" is how I'll practice my footwork personally and is meant for when fighting a non-wc guy and like I said proves effective for me.  I don't use it that much in Chi Sao.  www.youtube.com/mvbrown25


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## tenzen (May 22, 2011)

I wasn't refering to chi sao at all. What I meant was the bounce causes a constant change in level and structure, in real combat on the street this can throw off your timing and take away from power generation because you won't have a good full body linkage. I think it would be best to learn to relax a bit and stay stable. And I'm not speaking from a purely wc point of view, I practice and teach a lot of different martial arts from different cultures around the world, and I see where the flaws of this are.  There's a lot to be exploited there. Another thing is in the street you have no way of knowing what the person in front of you knows or doesn't know, so to say that's not the way you would fight a wc guy doesn't fit. 
I would like to make it clear that I'm not putting you or what your doing down, I'm just saying that if it was me I would exploit that as I see it to be a weakness in your game. This may work great for you, just not the type of thing I would recomend


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## mvbrown21 (May 22, 2011)

tenzen said:


> I wasn't refering to chi sao at all. What I meant was the bounce causes a constant change in level and structure, in real combat on the street this can throw off your timing and take away from power generation because you won't have a good full body linkage. I think it would be best to learn to relax a bit and stay stable. And I'm not speaking from a purely wc point of view, I practice and teach a lot of different martial arts from different cultures around the world, and I see where the flaws of this are.  There's a lot to be exploited there. Another thing is in the street you have no way of knowing what the person in front of you knows or doesn't know, so to say that's not the way you would fight a wc guy doesn't fit.
> I would like to make it clear that I'm not putting you or what your doing down, I'm just saying that if it was me I would exploit that as I see it to be a weakness in your game. This may work great for you, just not the type of thing I would recomend



I see what you're trying to say but I'm going to have to respectfully  disagree with you. WC is possibly the only art that promotes the rigid  stance  i.e. body linkage with all movements. And I'm not bashing it, it just has its pros and cons like everything else. One of the biggest cons being  mobility.  Another big con is the choreographed movements of a linked body structure.  Many a good fighters will tell you that you can see a WC advance a mile away.  And they're right, we're not distance fighters by nature.  We're in our prime when beneath the field of vision of the opponent.

I don't mean to come across like you haven't been in a  real fight but, to this guy, I'll take the little extra mobility any day over a little extra power.  I can generate enough power linked or not linked as it is and am smart enough to know that as powerful as I "think" my attack will be, in a real fight, I'm either not going to make solid contact or I'll miss or be deflected.  And that happens 9 out of 10 times.  You know what, since us WC guys are pretty good with the straight shots, I'll say 8 out of 10 times instead. 

Another thing you have to remember too is that a protectionist structure means next to nothing in a real fight the majority of the time, at least against a skilled opponent.  You'll get an attack in here and there, and a deflection, whether by a Biu or maybe a Jaam Sau, every now and then, and you'll probably get hit a bunch of times too.  Timing and your footwork will bring you the most success in a real fight.  And that's true regardless of any style of martial art you train.

I think  you might be misjudging the timing of the 'shadow boxing' I'm doing in that footwork example. Just  because there is a beat timing that you can count doesn't mean that I'm going to use a  consistent beat in a real fight.  There's regular timing, break timing, double timing, etc..   Like I said before, the Fong system  teaches timing like the back of your hand and timing is available to any practitioner more than just with their hands once they understand the concept of it.  You're allowed to do whatever you want with your WC once you have the foundation/skill and to me, that's half the beauty of WC.  Ip Man is quoted as saying that he had to relearn a lot of the movements in order to teach because he was trying to forget them intentionally so as to be a more natural fighter.  It was very much like the concept Bruce Lee had and it's important that we only become slaves to tradition when passing the art down and not to our own personal expression.

Anyway, look at boxers, they're one  of the hardest opponents for WC guys to fight because of their timing in  both hand timing and dip/slide/bob/weaving timing.  And anyone who says otherwise are not being honest with themselves about WC vs. Boxing.  And all I'm doing is borrowing from that concept.  

Long story short, I understand what you're talking about and how it "can" violate a principle that we all learned, and in that respect I agree with you, but in real application I'm going to do what gives me the best odds for survival and I believe that tactic to be very effective if applied properly.

Thanks and I hope I didn't come across the wrong way


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## mook jong man (May 23, 2011)

If you are seeing a Wing Chun man advance it is because the guy is an idiot that launches attacks from out of range.

It is quite simple , all you have to do is wait until the person is within your kicking range , or within the range of your step , then you launch a sudden explosive movement forward.

Very much like a cat waiting to pounce on a mouse , the cat doesn't make a move until it is sure that the prey is within a distance that it will not be able to react in time to get away. 

The stance is not at all rigid , maybe that is the way it is taught in North America , I do feel that the lead leg stance that seems to be favoured in North America has less options in terms of mobility.
The yjkym stance that we use is very natural , you should be able to run in your stance and move in any direction , all the time whilst keeping your centre of gravity low , it is very fluid and relaxed and gives equal opportunity for use of either leg in stepping or kicking.

The bouncing thing I believe is an affectation , it's a bit like people who give there hands a bit of shake before they put their guard up , it's just not neccessary.
Or people who try to add feints etc to their Wing Chun , again it is just not needed .
The longer a person does Wing Chun , theoretically his movements should become increasingly more minimalist in nature.

In close contact especially against another Wing Chun guy that bounce will be detected , and will be an opportune moment for you to be uprooted out of your stance and be propelled off balance.
If a foot can be detected being lifted off the ground through the arms then a gross movement like bouncing up and down should be picked up even more so.

Timing is also irrelevant , the only _*timing *_you need is to know the right time when the opponent is close enough for you to launch yourself forward and start your attack


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## tenzen (May 23, 2011)

The whole body moves as one in every art. Whether it be boxing judo wing chun wrestling whatever. It does not have to be a forward advancement it might be a simple twist but the body works together.
Also you are misunderstanding what I'm saying about linkage. Having a base to pull your power from the ground up to exert it in any fashion is called kinetic linking. With you bouncing your not going to have that correct link to generate any power. Your also severely off balance when bouncing the way you do, therefore easily knocked on your *** and getting your head stomped into the dirt. Whether that be timing or luck of the draw doesn't matter a mediocre streetfighter will take you out. 

Also if your having trouble with mobility you need to get back to the basics, wc is not a rigid system. Unless you make it one of course. Its a system of concepts and ideas that can apply to a wide range of tactics. You make it your own by your attitude and personality. Body structure plays a factor also but you don't have to change what's there, its already scientifically designed to work with the way humans move.

Another thing about being deflected with your straight shot, not likely if you know how to use it. You don't have to force things to have power. Wc teaches relaxed power which will get you much further than brute force. Since you like boxers I will talk about boxing here for a second. Boxers also hit with a type of relaxed force this allows them to be able to box for 12 rounds and still generate power, that and the kinetic linking/ power pulled from the ground. If they went out and used purely muscular force they wouldn't fight much more than 3 rounds, even with top conditioning. I would also like to add that up until a few years ago manny pacquiao only threw straight punches, no hooks at all. So straight punches land. Also there is a lot more in your arsenal than just punching, not gonna go into too much detail but kicking for instance is very difficult while bouncing like that unless your into olympic tae kwon do. So your kicks will become next to useless while bouncing like that.

All in all I think you are misunderstanding what you are being taught a great deal. Your missing a lot. And I do know plenty about fighting for real not just playing in the gym. I was a military combatives instructor, a kickboxer, a bouncer , and have done some personal security/bodyguard work. I have been in plenty of fights and I know what does and doesn't work. I'm also persuing a degree in bio mechanics. I like to know how the body works and how to keep it from working.

Like I said earlier it may work for you in the settings that you are training in. But that's just training. I see it being a set back in real street application. Everything I train for is stuff that will actually work, I have no need for extra ******** that is just wasting my time. If you do actually use this bouncing method and it works for you, myself and the others would love to see the real application of it. So if there is anyway you could get a sparring session going with someone from your academy and have it recorded please show us. We might have learned something new.


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## tenzen (May 23, 2011)

Double post sorry


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## mvbrown21 (May 23, 2011)

Honestly guys, wasn't trying to start a competition here.  Just sharing and hoping to see others footwork as well.  Wasn't trying to direct this thread into the direction it's going.  I love Wing Chun very much, I just don't drink the red Kool-aid and am open enough to see it's shortcomings.  I don't know where this bio-mechanics thing started and have yet to read or see anything about it with regards to WC outside of the occasional comment by a practitioner.  I think that defense is way overused and mis-appropriately attached to WC.  You can argue bio-mechanics on almost any movement of the human body that is rooted in balance.  And whether you want to acknowledge it or not, a bob or a weave, if done with balance can be just as rooted as not doing it

If any of you have footwork examples of your lineages, I would love to see them 

Thanks


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## mook jong man (May 23, 2011)

You can be rooted to the ground that is for sure , but once you start bobbing and weaving , your spine is now out of alignment and your central axis is out of kilter.

That means that your body weight is not going to be supported directly through the centre of your body and your weight will not be even over both feet .

If you weave your head to one side , naturally your body weight will follow and be increased on that side , that means that if you have to use that leg to jam , kick or step then you have to re-adjust your weight again in order to move , this takes longer than if you just had your body weight centrally located in the first place.

Wing Chun is predicated on being non committal , that means in terms of movement and how our body weight is supported by the skeletal structure.

Many things like pivoting and non committal movement will cease to function properly when this central axis is disturbed.

I do not do the video thing , people who want to see my Wing Chun have to be taught by me and pay for the privilege.

There is not much to see anyway , there is no fancy footwork , just get into your SLT stance and walk forward one leg after the other , to go back reverse the movement .
Any attacking movement is synchronised with a step , pivot when you have to
If you are so inclined to go searching my master was the late sifu Jim Fung and his master was Tsui Seung Tin there might be some clips that show a bit of footwork I am not sure.


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## profesormental (May 23, 2011)

Greetings.

First, as said before, nice house! Also, what is the song on the video?

My stepping  and stance methods have changed "drastically" compared to many Wing Chun methods, yet they are hard to see if not pointed out. Also, we test them against pressure in the direction opposite of where we intend to have most stability to make sure they are effective.

One thing we don't do is drag our feet on the floor. Lift the foot and step, not dragging it. It diminishes the strength of the postures.

Another thing is that I pivot on the ball of the foot. Also I plant on the heel. This is to send the correct proprioceptive signals to my body for the desired effect (stability/mobility/structure, etc.). This is important for optimal movements, yet it depends on application.

More later if asked. Hope that helps.

Juan Mercado


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## mvbrown21 (May 23, 2011)

profesormental said:


> Greetings.
> 
> First, as said before, nice house! Also, what is the song on the video?
> 
> ...



Thanks Juan and everyone else who commented on the house.  I'll have to let my wife know because she's the true designer there.  Walk into the man-cave and it's a whole nother world.  A Bruce Lee picture, a random picture of a Hong Kong street, a pin-up girl sliding down a fire pole(used to be a firefighter), and a whole lot of clutter!!

Thanks for sharing how you do your footwork, it's very interesting, first time I've heard of a lineage pivoting on the ball of the foot.  Do you have any video/photos of either yourself or somewhere you could direct me to?  Also, what is your lineage?

Thanks


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## mvbrown21 (May 23, 2011)

Oh yeah, the song is by Angels and Airwaves and called "The Adventure"


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## mook jong man (May 23, 2011)

profesormental said:


> Greetings.
> 
> First, as said before, nice house! Also, what is the song on the video?
> 
> ...



Dragging the feet on the floor slows down the speed of your stepping due to friction with the ground , not a good thing when you are trying to accelerate your body mass forward as fast you can in order to generate power in striking .


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## tenzen (May 23, 2011)

Dragging the feet also causes knee problems.

Mvbrown, maybe you would fair better learning boxing because everything your saying is contradictory to the art your practicing. Like your making wing chun something its not.

My wing chun comes from 2 lines. Willliam cheungs traditional wing chun, and the wong sheung leung system. The footwork from twc can easily be viewed online. For the wsl footwork search videos of gary lam or david peterson.


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## wtxs (May 23, 2011)

yak sao said:


>





mook jong man said:


> Dragging the feet on the floor slows down the speed of your stepping due to friction with the ground , not a good thing when you are trying to accelerate your body mass forward as fast you can in order to generate power in striking .



Just curious, would you say Emin made it work pretty well?


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (May 23, 2011)

Alright i haven't been practicing wing chun for that long and i haven't been in that many fights in the streets except for an odd fight maybe , but i have done some boxing training with an exceptional boxer. And i would like to make two points regarding the bobbing motion based on past experiences.

1. To put it simply my old practice partner has done alot of boxing and was actually a pretty well known amateur here in isb until one day he just stopped because he realised that there was no pro circuit he could show off his skills in , to be honest it was a complete waste of talent and so pursued his education instead... back when i was younger maybe 4 years back thats when i first met him and we trained pretty hard in the ring and gym in those days...he use to enjoy it and always knew so much about it, i had some spare time after school ... anyway during practice we would do a drill in which one person would throw 70% power hooks at the dangerous high spots e.g forehead , neck , jaw etc and the other person would weave and bob and duck to dodge , the aim of the drill being to dodge and develop co=ordination in the body ...ALMOST ALWAYS to regain composure of the body and straighten out our postures to get back in the boxer's chin guard position it would take us maybe a second or 1.5 (that use to be the timing in those days where two knockout blows could be delivered) in this drill we would mostly be going backwards while bobbing from side to side or going under in order to avoid the blows but during the entire drill that we use to exhaustively do we never had enough composure to control exactly which direction we were going backwards in and the velocity control took some leg strength as well. So i would have to agree that the Wc body structure does get compromised whenever you do a bobbing or ducking motion.

2. This Refers to the many spars i had with my partner in the ring where we would go five , four and a half minute rounds with a minute's interval in between each using head guards and chest guards this was mostly for his preparation for his matches to make sure he had adeqaute stamina ...And i would like to point out a certain aspect of the matches i so clearly remember , After ducking and strafing out of the opponent's attacks the boxer is either finds himself in a hunched position at the chest where the spine is bent with the boxer looking up at the opponent or the spine is straight and the knees are slightly bent. In the both scenarios hip rotation and leg boosts would be the thing generating the power we needed for the punch to be devastating and that is my point here ... When you bob and strafe and weave in any direction your whole body isnt behind an attack and thus a wc punch turns into a boxer's jab , essentially in theory and in practice the whole body isnt behind the attack that much i can account for based off personal experience. 

Though i can't exactly tell how much your body structure is compromised because of the bobbing i would say that if it works for you then more power to you but in such cases i almost always try to do comparisons. Doing it without bobbing and doing it upright. Get what im saying ... anyway Nice house... Enjoy training. =)


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## tenzen (May 23, 2011)

The thing about boxing is its boxing. Its a sport in which you fight other boxers. Wing chun is a fighting art for the street. There's a huge difference there.  All that bobbing and weaving in a real fight against someone who has half a clue will get you a knee to the face. Real fights are not in a controlled environment like boxing. Real fighting is chaos. Wing chun gives you the ability too intelligently come out alive, its also made to take your opponent out immediately. Wing chun needs no modification, the principals that are there work.

You can make the arguement that well bruce lee changed wing chun. Well maybe he did, but I would like to point out that it iis well known he wasn't all that great at wing chun and did not learn the whole system either. He was intermediate at best. We in the west hold him in such high regards because he was the first to show us kung fu openly. There are a lot of people who were the first of something that we see as being the best at what they did only because they were the first to show us. Not getting off of the topic of martial arts royce gracie was another one. Now don't get me wrong here I got my black belt in bjj from royce, but he was not the best at bjj. Not even close. But today that's how we see him because he pioneered mma. And in that respect he is and always will be one of the greatest.


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## Eric_H (May 23, 2011)

tenzen said:


> The thing about boxing is its boxing. Its a sport in which you fight other boxers. Wing chun is a fighting art for the street. There's a huge difference there.



Boxing throughout the ages has prove its value in combat to the point where it was well respected in China and added to the Jing Wu curriculum. You telling me those guys didn't know about combat? 



> All that bobbing and weaving in a real fight against someone who has half a clue will get you a knee to the face. Real fights are not in a controlled environment like boxing. Real fighting is chaos. Wing chun gives you the ability too intelligently come out alive, its also made to take your opponent out immediately. Wing chun needs no modification, the principals that are there work.
> Y



I've yet to see bobbing and weaving lead to a knee to the face, even when i did MT. Can you post a clip of it?


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## mook jong man (May 23, 2011)

wtxs said:


> Just curious, would you say Emin made it work pretty well?



After watching it a few times I'm not that convinced that he is dragging his foot on the floor, he is certainly not sliding his front foot on the floor , and his back foot seems to be only partially in contact with the floor judging by the way his heel plants into the floor when he reaches the target , but that could be due to the surface they are on.

But the fact is even if he did drag his back foot hard along the floor , with the amount of time that the man has been training he has already found his centre of gravity and moves as one unit , a very big unit at that , he could probably have bricks tied to his legs and still move in quickly.

I would advocate that he would be even quicker still if he glided across the floor , but it does depend a little bit on the type of surface you are on as well , polished wooden floor boards will not have that much of an effect of friction , whereas concrete or bitumen will slow you down somewhat if you are dragging your feet around.

I would suggest that all Wing Chun people get outside from the nicely carpeted , or polished floor boarded kwoons and get outside and train on a variety of surfaces , such as grass , gravel , dirt , concrete , uneven ground , staircases ,  bitumen etc.


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## mook jong man (May 23, 2011)

If you want some perspective of what the old guys in Hong Kong thought about Bruce Lee , well apparently they said "He could have been really good if he kept on training".
From what I understand he didn't even reach the level of learning Chum Kiu so his knowledge was limited , and if I go back to the time before I started Chum Kiu well lets just say I know a hell of a lot more now than I did then.

But looking in as an outsider from Australian Wing Chun I get the impression that either his theories , or the tactics inherent in his JKD do seem to have infiltrated their way into a lot of American Wing Chun. 
Whether this is a good or bad thing I do not know , but I do know it is not Wing Chun , we can argue about whether to use a Tan Sau or a Bong Sau to stop a straight punch , but what we can't argue about is basic things like correct posture .

Wing chun is not JKD , it is not Muay Thai , it is not Boxing , Wing Chun is Wing Chun.
I do not see the point of bobbing and weaving when punches are coming in at 6,7,8 punches a second , my own late Sifu could blaze away at 10 punches a second.

At that rate you won't even be able to see what hit you let alone try to take any evasive action , couple that with the fact that as they are punching your head in with one hand  they have a latched onto your other arm so they have immobilised you and  know exactly where you are , so there won't be any punches missing I can give you the tip.

One of the great features of Wing Chun is it's "Interruptability" any attacking or defencive motion can be interrupted at any time and converted into something else.

As an example with the bobbing and weaving , if I go to punch you in the head with my right arm and assuming that I telegraph like morse code and you move to the outside and I hit air then I just change that punch to a Fak Sau and hit you in the neck , this only takes half a nano second , similarly if you move to the inside I just pivot and convert the punch to a Tan sau / palm strike to the side of the neck.

The bobbing and weaving thing will work on low level fighters , even people with no training whatsoever  knock each other out in front of pubs and night clubs every night of the week.
But when you are facing somebody with real skill and speed to match , someone who only moves just enough to get the job done and no more , then you better make damn sure you have your i's dotted and your t's crossed.


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## tenzen (May 24, 2011)

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=aGPZR0n5SDU

Girl dodges a punch and is knocked out with a knee.
It can happen and it does happen. Muay thai is an art that they stay more upright because of this reason. Dropping your head makes an easy target for a knee shot. Seriously have you guys ever really been in a fight. Do a search on youtube for knee knockouts and you will find more of them. To say it doesn't or can't happen when bobbing and weaving is foolish.

As for the jing wu adding boxing to their system, ok. And boxing does have its place, in the ring wearing gloves. The entire art of boxing changed with the queensbury rules. Old style boxing would fare much better in a street confrontation. Now I'm not saying that boxing doesn't work, but its very limited. Also the way punches are thrown with and without gloves differs a lot.

This whole thing is about him breaking posture and losing his linkage with the bounce. Taking away a solid structure and power generation. Also adding in bobbing and weaving, what your lefft with is not wing chun at all. Its merely a boxing hybrid.


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## mvbrown21 (May 24, 2011)

To: *Mook Jong Man*

Honestly dude, anyone who's actually been in a real fight can tell from that last post that you've never fought a low-level guy or a skilled one........

And as far as the footwork goes, I've tried to be civil, I've tried to avoid the arrogance and lead this thread into a positive direction.  But you wanted to continue so I'll say this and then I'm ending my dialogue with you.  Ok, here it goes - 

_*No $h!t* you adjust your footwork depending on terrain!!!  I swear, I honestly don't know why anymore I even started going onto WC forums.......the outsiders are right, a lot of arrogance exists within the WC crowd and it's rather unfortunate too because, fellas, in case you didn't notice, we're the laughing stock of MA to the rest of the world with the absurd detachment from reality that too many exhibit day in.....and day out...
_


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## mvbrown21 (May 24, 2011)

To: *Tenzen

*I barely even bounced, you are truly ridiculous!!!


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## bully (May 24, 2011)

Whoa there Mr Brown, I think you are over reacting. Honestly!!

All I can see in this thread is a difference of opinion which you looked for when you posted it.

The guys seem to have been pretty civil, they don't think your bobbing is good to do. You do. They have said why, you have said why, neither party agrees. 
Toys do not need to go out of the pram feller, honestly this is the best WC forum going and why would you leave because of someones opinion on the internet?

Maybe leave this thread if it upsets you that much but posting a vid here is going to attract critism. See how it would fare on the OTHER WC forum. A lot worse than here.

I bet you $50 you would get on with MJM et al in real life if you met them. The written word is hard to convey with emotion and intent. I just think you are making a mountain out of a molehill and reckon you should post some more.

If you are not careful I will post a video of myself doing a "4th empty hand form"

"Heretic" I hear you cry," Burn him","4th form? He lies"   :ultracool


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## Jake104 (May 24, 2011)

First off, I'm not sure what street you guys are supposedly fighting on? Backstreet, maybe Sesame street?? Where I come from fights don't go down like that. Someone gets in your face. Boom you just got  sucker punched. Maybe not even the guy in front of you. Maybe his buddy from the side or to the back of your head . The last thing on your mind won't be " gee I think his stance wAs a bit bouncy". No it will be more like " ***** that hurts where's the nearest urgent care. There are lot of different things that can happened on the street. A fair fight probably being the most unlikey. The last fair one on one fight I was in  was in 6th grade. The last fight I was in was 4 on 1.

Jake


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## Eric_H (May 24, 2011)

tenzen said:


> http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=aGPZR0n5SDU
> 
> Girl dodges a punch and is knocked out with a knee.
> It can happen and it does happen. Muay thai is an art that they stay more upright because of this reason. Dropping your head makes an easy target for a knee shot. Seriously have you guys ever really been in a fight. Do a search on youtube for knee knockouts and you will find more of them. To say it doesn't or can't happen when bobbing and weaving is foolish.
> ...



The link doesn't work 

I never said it couldn't happen, just that in all the time I trained MT never saw bobbing and weaving lead to a knee KO. WC stays upright, so does MT. For the most part, a lot of boxing does too. Till I see it reliably happen, I can't say that bobbing and weaving automatically leads to a Knee KO on the "d34dly str33ts".

I still think the kung fu masters who put together the Jing Wu curriculum know better than you or I - but they only won a bunch of challenge fights, what would they know...


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## Eric_H (May 24, 2011)

bully said:


> If you are not careful I will post a video of myself doing a "4th empty hand form"
> 
> "Heretic" I hear you cry," Burn him","4th form? He lies"   :ultracool



It must be that ultra secret "Super Biu Gee" we've all heard of in legends.


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## profesormental (May 24, 2011)

Greetings!

Dude, please take it easy... or the mods wrath may fall upon us!! 

Thanks for the song...

I did kick someone in the face for bobbing and weaving once. I saw the motion was started a bit too early and I just round kicked the guy in the face... funny!

Dragging the feet does more to the body than just slowing it because of friction. It gives the body signals that make it go to a less stable state.

We tested and compared many configurations of footwork and did comparative strength tests against pressure in different directions, specially the directions where it should be strong for the desired effect. This we do with every movement. Experiments were and are being done with experienced and completely novice practitioners.

From this stems our adjustments. Our training curriculum is based on these results and many other factors and knowledge.

We call Footwork the Ultimate Variable. Why would that be?

The footwork, like everything else, depends on the application. Heel for stability, ball of foot for mobility.

My "lineage" is mostly my integration from a few teachers, mainly Ip Man lineage and Jason Lau's lineage (few steps down), and high level American Kenpo from Ed Parker students. My personal studies, knowledge and training also come into play here (I share with many practitioners from many other martial systems... I like sharing and learning). My training and studies have taken me to the point of reevaluating everything. Yet the Wing Chun looks very much the same (subtle yet important adjustments). The execution, effectiveness and learning speed of my students have all improved significantly!

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Juan Mercado
Academia Artes Marciales de Carolina


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## bully (May 24, 2011)

Eric_H said:


> It must be that ultra secret "Super Biu Gee" we've all heard of in legends.


 
There's a super Bui gee? Damn so there is actually 5 empty hand forms!!

The one I was shown is called Ershianshi in Mandarin and it's from a Foshan lineage but thats another thread.

One thing I can guarantee is that if I post a vid, you guys on here would need weeks of posts to get all the critism down on paper


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## profesormental (May 24, 2011)

HA!

You think Super Biu Jee is great... wait till you see Ultra Mook Jong and Hard Core Chum Kiu with the Kung Fu grip. They are based off Combat SLT... the basis of all Mega Wing Chun Ownage!!

About bobbing and weaving... well it depends, yet I do it if playing around and just sport type sparring match. I either survive/counter a sucker punch type attack, or go through the attacker like a train and control the person ASAP.


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## mook jong man (May 24, 2011)

mvbrown21 said:


> To: *Mook Jong Man*
> 
> Honestly dude, anyone who's actually been in a real fight can tell from that last post that you've never fought a low-level guy or a skilled one........
> 
> ...



That'll just about do me .


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## mvbrown21 (May 24, 2011)

...........just tired of trying to share and *learn* and all people do is immediately point out what you're doing wrong.  That's not conductive and comes across very arrogant.  Who are you to tell me I'm doing it wrong?  Unless you're my Sifu or in the family, you really have no place.  I'm not going to pretend I understand the inner-workings of using the YJKYM only footwork, so why are you pretending to know how our footwork works?  If you want to know, I'll try to explain it to you, but if you want to immediately tell me I'm wrong, then buddy, that's no longer a conversation now is it?

  How bout, "hey, that's interesting, this is how we do it".....or, "we found that by doing it this way it helped me with"......or, "the way I was taught was this way".....or, "huh, never thought of it that way".....nope, you guys found something different from your own lineage, didn't like it, and focused on it for the nest 3 pages of posts.   The inner-lineage wars are worse in WC than I think anywhere else and all this bickering over who's doing what's right or wrong is hurting and dividing all of us a h*ll of a lot more than helping us.  It's ridiculous, it really is, a bunch of grown men bickering over how to spread dirt!!

And as far as the real life fighting thing, the guys who've really fought can pick out the guys who haven't rather easily, so please, for the sake of integrity, stop feeding BS.  I swear, that unless you're quite possibly Ip Man himself, I and many others will not believe you when you describe a fight you had like it was a sequence out of Chi Sao, and it all worked perfectly.  You better be telling me how you got jammed or knocked off balance or you deflected unsuccessfully or missed or slipped your timing, but most importantly, you better be telling me that you got *hit!*


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (May 24, 2011)

No one's saying you can't fight ... everyone's just saying you can do your footwork and structure more justice if you eliminate a certain aspect of your footwork which they think is wasteful ... And ofcourse no one is contradicting what you have been taught just the opposite everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I think you should keep an open mind if you're going to post a video on a forum for critique comes in every colour.


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## tenzen (May 24, 2011)

Ok first off no one has said you were wrong, I made it clear that I was not saying you were wrong. I was merely pointing out things I would take advantage of. Again I'm not just a wc guy, I have practiced and am qualified to teach many different things. I have been in plenty of fights and no they don't go down like chi sao, real fights are unpredictable and pure chaos. But if you learn to relax you will fare far better in those fights. Everyone gets hit in a real fight unless you hit the guy and he goes down.
Also not sure how everyone else is but I don't give the chance for someone to hit me first, if you get in my face I will knock you the **** out. 

I do apologize about the link not working, I have been having problems with posting links and them not working lately. Not sure what the problem is.

And no one was attacking you, we were trying to give you some constructive criticism on what we saw. We have experience and used our experience to make an observation then give you feed back. There's no reason for you to get so defensive.

As for fighting I do it all the time, not by choice but because I work as a bouncer and a lot of drunk idiots surround me on a daily basis. I deal with real fights not just love tapping in the gym. I focus all of my training on what is really going to work because I have no need for the other ********. My fights are seldom 1 on 1. So I'm fairly comfortable with a group setting. 

Anyway enough of this back and fourth, you asked what we thought and we told you. You don't like it, so what your gonna follow what you feel works best for you. Now I'm done. Next thread please.


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## tenzen (May 24, 2011)

Oh by the way faisal your last post was a fairly intelligent one.  Thanks man.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (May 24, 2011)

tenzen said:


> Oh by the way faisal your last post was a fairly intelligent one.  Thanks man.



Meh , simple is effective heh


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## ilhe4e12345 (May 25, 2011)

i probably shouldnt be posting this because im currently taking 7 Star Mantis and only learned the basic principles but i just wanted to say about the footwork thing....it seems to be very important from what i have heard and a good friend of mine has been taking WC for the last 9 years (Ip Man style/Lineage) and ill tell you this...he gets into fights daily. 

He works as a bouncer at a strip club and most fights are 2 v 1 or more. i worked with him until about 4 months ago, i quit the bouncer club because my work schedule changed and i wasnt able to do it anymore. Anyways one night we were both working and i was escorting one of the young ladies out to her car when i noticed my friend Brian in a rather loud arguement with 3 other guys. Anyways i ran over to see what was going on and before i could even say a word a fight broke out. Now i watched as he blocked one hit and countered (which was amazing to see) but he wasnt fast enough and took a hit to the side of the face from another guy. Anyways after i jumped in and helped break it up afterwards him and i were laughing about it. as i am a mantis practitioner i was laughing saying "see if you knew mantis this wouldnt happen" joking of course as he has schooled me many times in sparing sessions. He then said that footwork is most important and that because it was on gravel, he slipped and that was what caused him to move out of balance and take that hit to the face. I didnt notice what he did footwork wise but he was practicing for 9 years and knows what he is doing...and he told me how important the footwork is and the centerline is everything. i would imagine if that isnt kept the correct way the principles and basics of the style do not work to their fullest....again i dont know im just sharing what i was told by another artist and im sorry if i offend anyone. 

im learning a little here and there from him but i dont want to stray from my mantis training, although it is fun to break a mans arm via mantis hook/elbow palm (it has happened before) but im glad im in my office setting now, no random attacks although the view isnt as...pleasent....lol


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## Eric_H (May 25, 2011)

ilhe4e12345 said:


> im glad im in my office setting now, no random attacks although the view isnt as...pleasent....lol



Some things are worth the added danger


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## naneek (Jun 1, 2011)

interesting video there MVbrown, always nice to see how different lineages do things, i dont really feel qualified to comment on its merits as i am not experienced even in my own lineage.


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