# Need help - trying to expand my martial arts



## Aleem (Jul 14, 2005)

Hey everyone,

I'd be grateful if I could get some help regarding cross-training into some other martial arts. Currently I'm studying WingChun but the contact level, sparring etc. are of a lower level than I'd like. This isn't yet the problem for me because I'm willing to spend a lot more time in the art.

However, there is very little - to nothing - as far as I've noticed, taught on clinchwork, takedowns, or groundfighting. I've found a few clubs and places in the area that deal with this, but I was wondering if anyone could advise me with some of the other arts on offer.

1) There's a place where they teach "sombo wrestling." Could anyone help me out with what this art/sport encompasses? Is it a comprehensive art? Would it hamper my wingchun training if I undertook it, or vice versa?

2) There is a free-fight club in my area ( www.cambridgefreefight.co.uk ). It competes in Vale Tudo tournaments and seems to have had great success. Can I ask, if I joined this place, how likely is it that I'll advance in a fairly comprehensive way in all ranges of fighting? I don't want a collection of isolated techniques taught - I personally need some basic guiding principles which won't confuse me too much. Does your MMA training give you this?

3) There is also a university Judo club and Jiu-jitsu club. How effectively could they help me with throws, locks, submission and groundwork?

Sorry about all the confusing questions - I've been thinking about all this for close to a month and its a real dilemma for me.

If I do join the MMA club, would I have to abandom my WingChun or could there be some complementary element in doing both?

If anyone could answer any questions, I'd be SO grateful - thanks very much,

Aleem.


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## MJS (Jul 14, 2005)

Rather than answer each question seperate, I'll attempt to give you an overall explaination.  First, I suggest that you take a look at all of the schools in your area and see what meets what you're looking for.  Watch or take a class, talk to the students and instructor.  Ultimately you are the one that will have to decide what suits you best.

BJJ or wrestling, namely Greco will offer you some excellent clinch work as well as the ground.  You will find some great submissions with BJJ as well as Sombo.  

As far as the techniques goes, one thing that you want to keep in mind, is that grappling is a progressive art.  IMHO, you should have a good understanding of the various positions.  Without position all of submissions in the world will mean nothing!  How can you apply a submission if you can't hold the position?  The positions are the foundation for everything else that will eventually come with time.

As far as cross training goes.  I'm a big fan of it.  I do suggest that you get a good foundation in a base art first before taking something else on, but everyone is different, so you may not have any problems.  I think that anytime someone crosstrains or cross referrences another art, it will always be a benefit.

I hope that this was a help.  Anymore questions, please feel free to ask! :supcool: 

Mike


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## arnisador (Jul 14, 2005)

Some sombo (a.k.a. sambo) is taught as a comprehensive art, but it's principally taught as a sport that's a cross between judo and wrestling. Search the Russian Martial Arts forum here for more info. My guess is it wouldn't hamper your Wing Chun (but I'm not an expert at either).

Vale Tudo is intended for MMA. You'll learn to transition between ranges. You'll get punching, kicking, and grappling. It'd likely be very hard training, but it's comprehenseive for MMA. Of course, you probably wouldn't get weapons training, mass attack training, and so on, because it's competition-oriented. As to guiding principles...much less so than some other arts. Wing Chun is actually very good for that.

Judo is excellent training for grappling, though sambo relies less on the gi (jacket only, no long pants) and Vale Tudo doesn't use it at all. Without knowing what type of jujutsu they do it's hard to comment on that, but it would likely be focused on locks and throws with a small amount of striking.

I don't think any of these would interfere with your Wing Chun training. Possibly the Vale Tudo would to a degree. You'll find yourself with any of these wanting to try a grappling move when sparring with someone, and that may be a no-no at the kung fu school.

My advice: Wing Chun is good. I wouldn't suggest you drop it. If it were me, I'd try the three grappling clubs, speak with the instructors, and pick my favorite. I've had one Vale Tudo seminar and have done some Judo; my knowledge of sambo comes from books. The Vale Tudo can be very effective and is comprehenseive. I personally like Judo and would probably add it or sambo to the Wing Chun, but that's just my preference. A Vale Tudo program would tie it all together for you in a much better way. If you take a few arts, _you_ need to construct a mixed style for yourself! That can be fun, and ultimately we all create our own personal expression of what we've studied, but you may not be ready for that yet.

You might look also for a Jeet Kune Do school. They put a _lot_ of focus on changing ranges. Boxing and Muay Thai might give you a more contact-oriented striking style, and don't overlook plain old wrestling for grappling, especially if you're still in high school or college and it's free.


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## Aleem (Jul 14, 2005)

Thanks very much MJS and arnisador for your insight, very helpful things there.



> As far as cross training goes. I'm a big fan of it. I do suggest that you get a good foundation in a base art first before taking something else on


As you both said, I should really try and get a good foundation in my primary art and then move along so I'll give that some good thought.



> If you take a few arts, _you_ need to construct a mixed style for yourself! That can be fun, and ultimately we all create our own personal expression of what we've studied, but you may not be ready for that yet.


That sounds fun  I guess I'm just getting a bit impatient because there is simply so much at offer. The high impact training at this muay thai place or the really precise technical stuff at wingchun - or maybe judy to compete in the university or sombo... ARGHHH...

But thanks very much. Can I ask, at your clubs what kind of sparring and bag training you do? We do very little dynamic sparring and bag work. Mainly (thus far anyway, 8 months in) I'm still concentrating on forms, air-punching and things like that. 



> and don't overlook plain old wrestling for grappling, especially if you're still in high school or college and it's free


 English schools are lazy as hell - I don't think there's a single school in the country that does wrestling at school... we do however, play rounders in our "physical education" lessons which is the softened up version of baseball, reserved for 3-4 year olds, if that counts as anything "physical."


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## Marvin (Jul 17, 2005)

How close are you to Manchester?


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## Aleem (Jul 17, 2005)

... about 2/2.5 hrs in a car - how come do you ask? you know these days i'm really dying to get some training partners or maybe even meet up with someone to have a couple of hours of training done with outside of a dojo ... are there any martialtalk meetups or anything like that happening around here?


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## Marvin (Jul 17, 2005)

Hi Aleem, check out www.karltanswell.com, he is the U.K. regional director of the Straight Blast Gym. They may have group near you. They definitely will have some things that you can add to your game. And I have never trained with a more laid back group of people, speaking in general of SBG folks I have trained with.
Marvin


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## Aleem (Jul 18, 2005)

Thanks very much for the info marvin,

If I get some time during these summer holidays I'll see if I can get down there for an intensive work-out; it looks like a good place. By the way, what's the difference between "submission grappling" classes and "bjj classes"? Is BJJ a sub-group of submission grappling? And that submission grappling is an amalgamation of submission and wrestling tactics derived from various MAs?

Thanks for the invot


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## Aleem (Jul 18, 2005)

...woops I submitted that post before it was finished ... ummm how can I edit posts? I don't see an option anywhere around to do that.

Thanks,

Aleem


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## MJS (Jul 18, 2005)

Aleem said:
			
		

> ...woops I submitted that post before it was finished ... ummm how can I edit posts? I don't see an option anywhere around to do that.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Aleem



After you post, you should see a place where you can edit your posts.  This feature however lasts only an hour from the time of your post.  After that, you can't edit it.

Mike


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## Marvin (Jul 18, 2005)

Aleem said:
			
		

> Thanks very much for the info marvin,
> 
> If I get some time during these summer holidays I'll see if I can get down there for an intensive work-out; it looks like a good place. By the way, what's the difference between "submission grappling" classes and "bjj classes"? Is BJJ a sub-group of submission grappling? And that submission grappling is an amalgamation of submission and wrestling tactics derived from various MAs?


Like a lot of things in the martial arts it depends on who you ask   
I look at it as a type of submission wrestling; there are other types of sub. wrestling: sombo, shoot wrestling, judo, catch wrestling etc. Each style has a different approach to how they address their techniques, some are more strength based and some are more leverage based. And there are variations within each style as well. The common thread is that they work for positional dominance against a resisting opponent and try to end the fight with a choke, lock or pin. 
Marvin


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## Aleem (Jul 18, 2005)

I see what you mean marvin. Which category does BJJ fit into? The leverage-based side or the strength-based? I ask because strength is the one thing I'm severely lacking in ... SEVERELY. 

Would you happen to know anything about jiu-jitsu as a self-defense style? I mean ... how comprehensive is it? What's the grappling, striking and blocking/parrying like?

I know those are very general questions, but its one of the arts that I'm considering doing at some point so I wondered. Does anyone here cross-train with jiu-jitsu as one of the arts?

Thanks


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## arnisador (Jul 18, 2005)

I consider BJJ to be a form of submission wrestling, but yes, you'll get different answers from different people. Some people use the term 'submission wrestling' to refer to the grappling aspects of a Vale Tudo tpe of MMA system.


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## Marvin (Jul 18, 2005)

Hi Aleem, the BJJ that I have been exposed to is more leveraged based. But strength and size are factors, thats why there are weight classes. Now in your post you want to know about "Jiu-jujutsu", do you mean Jap. Jiu-jutsu or Braz. Jiu-jutsu? I think BJJ is a great style for self defence, I can"t speak of JJJ, I have not trained in it.
Marvin


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## Aleem (Jul 18, 2005)

I guess I was wondering about Japanese JJ as a system. By the way, does Brazilian Jiu-jitsu have any striking in it?


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## arnisador (Jul 18, 2005)

I'd say that BJJ has no striking in it, but I'm sure you'd find someone who disagrees. The Gracies do have a BJJ for Self-Defense book out.

Many instructors will say "and then you could punch him" about, say, a mounted position, but may not teach how to punch.

As to Japanese jujutsu, it varies. Usually striking is an underemphasized part of the system, and there are certainly effective styles of it out there.


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## Marvin (Jul 18, 2005)

Aleem, as far as striking, I separate BJJ into 4 areas

1. Gi
2. No gi
3. Vale Tudo (with strikes)
4. Self Defense

Same art, different intents and purposes

Marvin


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## Aleem (Jul 19, 2005)

Hi,

Marvin, is Vale Tudo a style of its own, or is it a competition for which BJJ has been modified? Or, if it is a style, has BJJ had to modify for it all? Thanks for the info.

Arnisador - as a matter of personal opinion - and for you too Marvin - if you were to combine an art alongside with an MMA school training (which gives Vale Tudo lessons, sub-wrestling lessons and muay thai lessons) would you consider doing WingChun or JiuJitsu?

Actually - I guess my biggest dilemma recently has been about which of the two arts has the potential within say, 5-7 years of producing a better fighter from me?

I do WingChun and have my faith in it but the fact is that this has thus far been my only MA experience and although I think its very good, I can't be sure whether what I'm learning is effectively something I could learn in another MA such as JJJ anyway ... does that confused drivel make sense?

For example ... the paksau and tansau in WingChun seem to me, to be very effective redirections/parries (whatever its called) - and sometimes the way it is made out to be in reading certain articles is that "these are the best you'll get." I guess what I mean is, does an art like say JJJ also have a comprehensive blocking-against-striking philosophy? (and not just a set of if-he-does-this then i'll-do-that set of techniques?)

Is JJJ a more complete system?

Also ... this one's for personal reasons; if I DO take it up, would it allow me to use speed rather than macho strength? I'm not very strong at all you see so I picked WC and its doing well for me (I think) but I keep wondering whether there will be sufficient strength behind my short-range punches etc.

After all the amazingly bipolar press wingchun receives I really must evaluate just what it can provide for me. And comparing it to JJJ which to my knowledge seems to be universally appreciated in the least, I wonder why this is? Is it because its a better system? Or is it because it has less politics and lays less claims to universal superiority than some WCers?

Sorry, I've just woken up so I don't know how confused all this will sound but if anyone can take the time to read it, that'd be so great!

Thanks a lot everyone,

Aleem.


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## Marvin (Jul 19, 2005)

Morning Aleem!
You are all over the place with this post LOL !!
I will answer what I can to the best of my abilities. And please remember all opinions are my own and should be taken with a pinch of salt a twist of lime and a shot of tequila 





			
				Aleem said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> Marvin, is Vale Tudo a style of its own, or is it a competition for which BJJ has been modified? Or, if it is a style, has BJJ had to modify for it all? Thanks for the info.



I look at it as anything goes, Stand up, clinch and ground. Using all your tools and where BJJ fits is that its the best tool I've found for fighting on the ground



			
				Aleem said:
			
		

> Arnisador - as a matter of personal opinion - and for you too Marvin - if you were to combine an art alongside with an MMA school training (which gives Vale Tudo lessons, sub-wrestling lessons and muay thai lessons) would you consider doing WingChun or JiuJitsu?



I wouldn't. The school that teaches "sub-wrestling lessons and muay thai lessons" would already have a curriculum in Stand-up clinch and ground.



			
				Aleem said:
			
		

> Actually - I guess my biggest dilemma recently has been about which of the two arts has the potential within say, 5-7 years of producing a better fighter from me?



To become a better fighter you must train in an environment that is conducive to you becoming a better fighter i.e. a club where you can get resistance and honest feedback for you techniques



			
				Aleem said:
			
		

> I do WingChun and have my faith in it but the fact is that this has thus far been my only MA experience and although I think its very good, I can't be sure whether what I'm learning is effectively something I could learn in another MA such as JJJ anyway ... does that confused drivel make sense?
> 
> For example ... the paksau and tansau in WingChun seem to me, to be very effective redirections/parries (whatever its called) - and sometimes the way it is made out to be in reading certain articles is that "these are the best you'll get." I guess what I mean is, does an art like say JJJ also have a comprehensive blocking-against-striking philosophy? (and not just a set of if-he-does-this then i'll-do-that set of techniques?)


The best way for you to find out what works is to do it live.



			
				Aleem said:
			
		

> Is JJJ a more complete system?


 complete at what?



			
				Aleem said:
			
		

> Also ... this one's for personal reasons; if I DO take it up, would it allow me to use speed rather than macho strength? I'm not very strong at all you see so I picked WC and its doing well for me (I think) but I keep wondering whether there will be sufficient strength behind my short-range punches etc.



Strength is not inherently "macho" it is simply another attribute to be trained to make one a better fighter/martial artist  just like speed, cardio, endurance, timing etc.



			
				Aleem said:
			
		

> After all the amazingly bipolar press wingchun receives I really must evaluate just what it can provide for me. And comparing it to JJJ which to my knowledge seems to be universally appreciated in the least, I wonder why this is? Is it because its a better system? Or is it because it has less politics and lays less claims to universal superiority than some WCers



Its a lot more healthy not to get involved in politics, politics often has very little to do with training! The bottom line is that there is only one person that can tell you what is right for you. Do what YOU like to do, if someone else doesn't like it...then that is their hang up.
Take care,
Marvin


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## Aleem (Jul 19, 2005)

Thanks for the post marvin; yeah I just read over my post from this morning and it IS all over the place.

My question in relationo to JJJ should have been a little more specific. Basically, I wanted to know whether it has any signature characteristics or not. Just as the MuayThai practitioners focus on and pride themselves on their hard conditioning and powerful kicks, or the WingChun practitioners concentrate on centerline concepts and non-telegraphed strikes, is there anything about JJJ that gives it a uniqueness? Or is it that this is a well-rounded single art that deals with strikes, standup grappling, groundwork etc?

I have been thinking of eventually being able to instruct people in a certain MA or MMAs; however this idea is in its infancy as far as how close I am to it being realised. What I want to ask is, can anyone open an MA school as a business? Or are official certificates required to present to someone to allow you to legally teach Martial Arts? For example, if I get to an instructor grade at my WingChun lineage it will allow me to teach under that organisation. However, what if I don't officially receive such a grade, leave to study a variety of other MAs and only have "10 years of experience?." Legally is there anything stopping me from opening my own business like this?

I love MAs and at the moment there is so much variety of it around that I'm spoilt for choice - hopefully I can settle down and stick to a manageable amount, become full-time and teach it.

Any thoughts, anyone?

Thanks very much,

Aleem.


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## Marvin (Jul 19, 2005)

I couldn't tell you much about JJJ, i've never seen 'em, but I'm sure if you posted it on the JJJ forum, they could give you some ideas.

As far a legalities, I have no idea how it works in the U.K. :idunno: 
Good Luck!
Marvin


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## arnisador (Jul 19, 2005)

If you've got a school that teaches submission wrestling for MMA, including striking techniques, you have one-on-one empty hand pretty well covered. Rather than Wing Chun or even Japanese jujutsu, I'd add something with weapons or defenses against mass attacks. I think JKD would be an excellent choice. But, other things that might fit include sambo, boxing, and Judo or Japanese jujutsu.

If you want to be a fighter, focus on the MMA. For self-defense, it's a great base, but add an art that covers using and defending against common street weapons, like a Filipino or Indonesian system, or again JKD which has a Kali component.

I don't think Wing Chun gives you the optimal add-on, but I do think it has a lot going for it. I like the system--I just think it doesn't add as much of what'd be missing from your training as you might want.


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## Dan G (Jul 19, 2005)

There is no overall body that governs martial arts in the UK any more. Up until the late 80's or early 90's or thereabouts we had the Martial Arts Comission, a semi-governmental body set up as a knee jerk reaction to a perceived martial arts menace to society. Dissolved partly because it was largely run by a small group of mainly japanese martial artists who could never agree on anything. Basically a joke that is thankfully gone.

To run a school as a business you will need insurance, this is normally obtained through an association like the AMA.

Martial arts in the UK is largely amateur, and very few people are skilled enough in their art and in business to make their sole living as an instructor. Those that do will almost never become wealthy, and many will have dedicated half a lifetime to acquiring their skills. If you seek to become an instructor be aware that it is something that will be a labour of love for most of your life, and will almost certainly not provide even a subsistence income for much of that time. Most people instruct through a love of their art, not as a business plan. Good for the integrity of martial arts, but probably limits the number of instructors who achieve their full potential as martial artists. 

Where in Cambridge do you do Wing Chun? I heard of a group training off Cherry Hinton Rd in St. Barnabas church a while back. I might have met the instructor once, if so he is a nice bloke.

If you find some good places to train post a thread, I visit Cambridge every so often and might look in. I have a few friends still living there who I keep trying to persuade to take up training again, so always on the look out for good clubs in the area.

Good luck,

Dan


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## Aleem (Jul 20, 2005)

Thanks for the input everyone,

I'll keep it all in mind. I'll check out the JJJ club arnisador and see what kind of training they provide which I could use to help my other MAs.

Dan G, thanks for the info. I was hoping that you'd give me nicer news, but meh, that's life. Our WingTsun club seems to be an extreeemely friendly place and we have some really nice instructors. I've only been in cambridge since october so I don't know about any other wingchun clubs around; as far as I'm aware, the club trains in two locations. I don't know if there are regulations against posting club sites on here but I've seen plenty of people putting school links up so I can give you a little list of the places that train in MA in cambridge (and ones I will hopefully visit soon). BTW all the sites have directions to their respective clubs.

www.cambridgewingtsun.co.uk and www.whatakick.com (our wingchun places)

www.singto.co.uk (thats a muay thai gym in the area)

www.cambridgemartialarts.com (they do sombo, savate, jkd, fma)

www.cambridgefreefight.co.uk (MMA club with ties to the singto gym)

There's a tai-chi chuan place in cambridge too somewhere but I can seem to find their site right now.

And there are also university run judo and jiujitsu clubs which I'll have a look into, time permitting.

As you can see, with so much choice and variety I am dying to sink my teeth into as much as I can but gargh! TOO much choice.

Let me know if you're ever down there and I could direct you there or introduce you to some of the people at the club. (I'm in cambridge from start of october till december; damned university terms)

Aleem


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## Dan G (Jul 20, 2005)

Cheers for the info Aleem.

Sorry if I made it sound as if earning a living as an instructor was imposssible. It isn't impossible, just very tough. If you love it enough I am sure you will make it work for you one way or another.

If you are at the Uni you are spoiled for choice with MA (they even have a kendo club, which is almost impossible to do cheaply as a non-student in the UK). If I were in your shoes I reckon I'd pick one art that I really enjoyed training in and use it as a foundation art; friendly people and instructors, and clubs elsewhere in the UK to continue in after graduation would be a key factor if I were choosing. Wing Chun might be a pretty good choice where you are. 
Normally people advise against cross training early on, but Uni is a special case. I'd dabble in as many other arts as I possibly could whilst at Uni, even if only for a one off intro lesson. You probably won't learn much in that time period, but it is good general knowledge. The clubs are cheap for students and it is a great and really convenient opportunity to get a glimpse of different arts. Even if it is confusing and slows down early progress in your main art, Uni is an awesome place to get a feel for the different arts that are out there. (Definitely try out the kendo! Is a lot of fun)

I like the fact that you are looking at the town clubs too. A lot of students are reluctant to do that, and it can lead to missed opportunities. 
If you are training in a town club you may be able to set up a Uni club off-shoot and get the instructor in - endless possibilities!
Perhaps also have a look at Systema, there is an instructor called Rob Poyton in the area. I've only done a class or two in Systema, but it is an art with depth and subtlety to it, and seems pretty effective;  I hear good things about the instructor.  http://www.systemauk.com/index.html

Anyway, it is all personal opinion, so look around and see what grabs you.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions - haven't lived much in Cambridge for the past 15 years, but I grew up there and know it pretty well still.
Good luck with the training and have an awesome time! Had a quick look at the Uni club sites and there is a good range of stuff there - would love to be doing the Uni martial arts thing again!

Cheers

Dan


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## Aleem (Jul 20, 2005)

Thanks very much for the tips Dan,

Its a good idea that actually ... because they tell us at university that if we can show evidence of enough interest in a particular "activity" and we provide them with a plausible sketch of how we plan to organise things, then they can help us with funding; its a bloody rich university.

I just wish they didn't endow us with so much work - the workload is ridiculous. Anyhow, yeah I'll definitely check out the university-run clubs... very very cheap. I mean how much better can you get than £2 per session?

I've only just begun my martial arts and fear that 18 might have been too late to begin training and hoping to one day become an instructor but I figured if I put enough hours in and get some good MA contacts then it might just be possible for me - after university - to concentrate 110% on training.

By the way, does kenpo have any relation to jiu jitsu?

Once again thanks for the help,

Aleem.


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