# Stick vs. Empty hand.



## arnisador (Mar 4, 2003)

The current issue of Black Belt magazine (Apr. 2003) has an article by Hock Hocheim discussing the use of an ASP baton for self-defense. He notes that if you are using a stick like this to defend yourself then it's extremely unlikely that your opponent will also have a stick--there will be no stick-on-stick dueling as is so often practiced in FMA schools. Instead it'll be stick on open hand (or maybe knife). He focuses on the stick on open hand issue and related need to not use overkill, leading to legal issues for the defender.

Does anyone teach the use of an ASP baton or maglite or similar device for self-defense? If so, do you teach scenarios for stick on empty hand and stick on knife?


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *The current issue of Black Belt magazine (Apr. 2003) has an article by Hock Hocheim discussing the use of an ASP baton for self-defense. He notes that if you are using a stick like this to defend yourself then it's extremely unlikely that your opponent will also have a stick--there will be no stick-on-stick dueling as is so often practiced in FMA schools. Instead it'll be stick on open hand (or maybe knife). He focuses on the stick on open hand issue and related need to not use overkill, leading to legal issues for the defender.
> 
> Does anyone teach the use of an ASP baton or maglite or similar device for self-defense? If so, do you teach scenarios for stick on empty hand and stick on knife? *



Arnisador,

Yes we do. not right away though. So that could be seen as a failing. We teach empty hand versus stick and stick versus empty hand.

I also point out that here in Michigan, even if you get attacked and pull out the Asp to defend yourself the other guy must be much bigger or ahve a weapon. You have to have a reason to escalate the level of violence. The Police and DA's assume that empty hands is not intent to kill all by itself.


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## Yari (Mar 5, 2003)

I taught some police to use the "totenslager" against  empty handed assailent ( or using a knife). We used a lot of abanico movements.

/yari


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## pesilat (Mar 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *The current issue of Black Belt magazine (Apr. 2003) has an article by Hock Hocheim discussing the use of an ASP baton for self-defense. He notes that if you are using a stick like this to defend yourself then it's extremely unlikely that your opponent will also have a stick--there will be no stick-on-stick dueling as is so often practiced in FMA schools. Instead it'll be stick on open hand (or maybe knife). He focuses on the stick on open hand issue and related need to not use overkill, leading to legal issues for the defender.
> 
> Does anyone teach the use of an ASP baton or maglite or similar device for self-defense? If so, do you teach scenarios for stick on empty hand and stick on knife? *



I don't specifically teach ASP or maglite or anything else. But I do stress that anything can be a weapon and that the training with sticks and knives is already ingraining the principles of movement into the body. And I encourage my students to experiment. I've done quite a bit of experimentation and am quite comfortable with these implements (or anything else I pick up).

To address one of Hock's statements, though. 



> He notes that if you are using a stick like this to defend yourself then it's extremely unlikely that your opponent will also have a stick--there will be no stick-on-stick dueling as is so often practiced in FMA schools.



I have often heard this argument. Especially related to knives. People say, "Knife vs. knife is almost never going to happen here in the States, so training that way is a waste of time."

I think these people have misunderstood what these training methods are really doing. Or, in Hock's case, he may understand it but takes this stance, because he tends to cater to groups that either don't have a lot of training time, or aren't willing to spend much on training time. I don't know. I've never met Hock so have no idea where his personal skill/understanding is (though I've heard good things).

Anyway, IMO, weapon vs. weapon training is only marginally about learning to fight weapon vs. weapon. That's the icing on the cake, though. What it's really about is both people learning how to use their weapon simultaneously.

Not sure that makes sense the way I wrote it, but that's my opinion.

Mike


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## arnisador (Mar 5, 2003)

He does mention that the dueling can develop useful attributes, if memory serves. I think his point was more that techniques that'd be defensible in court for stick-on-stick might seem excessive for stick-on-empty-hand, so he was showing locking techniques with the baton.


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## pesilat (Mar 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *He does mention that the dueling can develop useful attributes, if memory serves. I think his point was more that techniques that'd be defensible in court for stick-on-stick might seem excessive for stick-on-empty-hand, so he was showing locking techniques with the baton. *



Absolutely. Personally, an ASP would be the last thing I'd go for if the other guy didn't have a weapon. I'd always try to get hold of something inanimate that doesn't bleed or feel pain, but an ASP is, flat out, a lethal weapon. That little disc on the end can go through a skull like nothing.

Mike


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## dearnis.com (Mar 5, 2003)

> That little disc on the end can go through a skull like nothing.



Precisely why ASP teaches you to hit the arms and legs.  For what it is worth I REALLY like the ASP...but it is a lousy choice for self defense.  It will be seen as overkill (but he was unarmed....) or it will not be enough (blade-armed opponent).  In addition is is a flat-up prohibited weapon to carry in many, many jurisdictions.
Also worth noting...I have seen (and heard) some horrible head shots with ASP that produced very little effect.  The little metal stick is not a cure-all for a lack of training!

It is worth noting that Hock's target market is police/military, and that the rules of engagement are different.  Whether the average Black Belt reader is sharp enough to pick up on it is another question.


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## arnisador (Mar 5, 2003)

Is there a similar item you recommend *dearnis.com*?


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## pesilat (Mar 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dearnis.com _
> *Precisely why ASP teaches you to hit the arms and legs.  For what it is worth I REALLY like the ASP...but it is a lousy choice for self defense.  It will be seen as overkill (but he was unarmed....) or it will not be enough (blade-armed opponent).  In addition is is a flat-up prohibited weapon to carry in many, many jurisdictions.
> Also worth noting...I have seen (and heard) some horrible head shots with ASP that produced very little effect.  The little metal stick is not a cure-all for a lack of training!
> 
> It is worth noting that Hock's target market is police/military, and that the rules of engagement are different.  Whether the average Black Belt reader is sharp enough to pick up on it is another question. *



Yup. Hock also targets the "survivalist" groups.

Well, if given the choice between an ASP and nothing when faced with a blade, I'll take the ASP every time 

Actually, any kind of stick is useful against a short blade because you can use the stick's reach advantage and with some skill and luck you can finish the fight (or at least get rid of the blade; a broken arm/hand usually won't hold a blade very well) before the guy gets close enough to use the blade (unless he throws it, but that's a whole different issue).

Mike


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## dearnis.com (Mar 5, 2003)

> Is there a similar item you recommend



ummmmm... sticky question.  The ASP is a good tool IF you can carry it legally.  It is not what I carry off duty though.

Consider a good pepper spray COMBINED WITH adequate empty hand skills, but practice with the stuff (to include being sprayed with it so you see what it actually does....)


Understand gang, I am not advocating pepper spray vs. a knife; I am addressing daily carry options that are realistic for most folks and will work in empty hand but threatening situations.

I realize some will carry what they want anyway, but even if you are vindicated in your actions the felony weapons charge may stick...

Chad

(Note- I am not a lawyer and do not pretend to be one; if you have a question about what you can carry or do WHERE YOU ACTUALLY ARE ask a lawyer, not a karate teacher!)


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## arnisador (Mar 5, 2003)

I took the Calif. mace course some years back--it was required (one night at a comm. college) if you wanted to carry a chemical spray. We did have to get some in our eyes as part of it.

I took it mostly because I recommended it for women's self-defense and wanted to be more knowledgeable about it.


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## dearnis.com (Mar 6, 2003)

If you havent experienced OC spray try it....
It either works very dramatically or not at all.

It is, however, a wonderful entry too.

As t the stick on stick dueling question that statretd teh tread those who spar see ho hard it is to pull this material off, but that doesnt diminish its value for teaching attributes development, motion skills, and for mental stimulation.


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## pesilat (Mar 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dearnis.com _
> *dueling question that statretd teh tread those who spar see ho hard it is to pull this material off, but that doesnt diminish its value for teaching attributes development, motion skills, and for mental stimulation. *



Yup. And, also, never mistake sparring for fighting (as I'm sure you don't either).

:soapbox: 

Sparring, even NHB, is still not the same as a fight in the street. In a sparring or NHB match, you know how many opponents you have (usually 1), what weapons they have or don't have, and all the opponents know they're about to get in a fight with a skilled opponent. And they take usually place in a "sterile" environment (i.e.: even footing, clear area, etc.).

This is not to say that sparring or NHB is bad. I think they're great training tools and vital for someone who really wants to be able to apply their material.

But while sparring and, especially, NHB provide an indication of what will and won't work in a fight, they're by no means an accurate measure of the efficacy of various material.

There are things that will never work in sparring/NHB that can work, and even have a pretty high percentage, against an unskilled opponent. And the flip side is true, too. Things that will work in sparring/NHB may not work against an unskilled opponent. When you start adding in factors like alcohol and drugs, the differences become even more exaggerated.

And, often, real fights are ambushes and include multiple attackers and weapons (though all of this depends on the environment). You're not likely to encounter a 1-on-1 with an unarmed skilled opponent in a sterile environment.

But, as I said, I think sparring/NHB are important training tools. I just get sick of people saying, "Well, that doesn't work in NHB so it's not real." (not that you were, dearnis, I just took a tangent from your post and used it as a soapbox  ).

Mike


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## dearnis.com (Mar 6, 2003)

No Mike, I think we are right on the same page.
I met your teacher at a few seminars when I lived down south, so i have a pretty good idea where you are coming from.
 

Sure were a lot of typos in my post though; sorry about that guys.  just rolled out of bed on my way to work!
Chad


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## pesilat (Mar 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dearnis.com _
> *No Mike, I think we are right on the same page.
> I met your teacher at a few seminars when I lived down south, so i have a pretty good idea where you are coming from.
> 
> ...



My teacher? Which teacher? Am I the Mike you're talking to?

Mike


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## dearnis.com (Mar 6, 2003)

Pesilat-
Yes.  Thinking of Prof. Lansdale.


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## pesilat (Mar 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dearnis.com _
> *Pesilat-
> Yes.  Thinking of Prof. Lansdale. *



Cool. Yup. He's one of my instructors  I assumed that was who you meant since he's the only instructor I have who lives down south, though Uncle Bill does a fair amount of teaching in the southern part of the US, too.

Mike


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## dearnis.com (Mar 6, 2003)

Have yet to train with Uncle Bill, though some of my Sayoc instructors have a bit of time in with him.
Interesting, since this trhead started over one of Hock's articles I believe it was at one of his camps that I first met Lansdale.
Entertaining writer too.


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## pesilat (Mar 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dearnis.com _
> *Have yet to train with Uncle Bill, though some of my Sayoc instructors have a bit of time in with him.
> Interesting, since this trhead started over one of Hock's articles I believe it was at one of his camps that I first met Lansdale.
> Entertaining writer too. *



<g> I'm guessing you're referring to Tuhon Tom. Huh. You and I apparently know quite a few of the same people. Have we ever met?

Yes, Joe's a really good writer. I first met him in '98 and he's been a good friend since then. He did attend some of Hock's seminars, but a couple of his students, specifically Eugene Frizzell and Coy Harry, were the ones who were really interested in the training Hock was offering.

Uncle Bill is great. I'm flying out to Denver next week to spend a week training with Uncle. He's an incredible martial artist and, past that, a genuinely cool guy. I had the immense pleasure of introducing Prof. Lansdale and Uncle to each other in November. They hit it off great and have kept in touch since.

Speaking of Sayoc, are you going to be at Sama Sama this year? If so, then we can meet in person there.

Take care, Mike


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## dearnis.com (Mar 7, 2003)

I always felt bad for Coy...everyone grabbed him to demo on in seminars because he was so damn big!
I think 97 was the last year I was at one of Hock's Texas events (maybe 98).
And yes, I will be at Sama Sam for Saturday and Sunday (on duty Friday.....  )
Looking forward to playing a bit!


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## pesilat (Mar 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dearnis.com _
> *I always felt bad for Coy...everyone grabbed him to demo on in seminars because he was so damn big!
> I think 97 was the last year I was at one of Hock's Texas events (maybe 98).
> And yes, I will be at Sama Sam for Saturday and Sunday (on duty Friday.....  )
> Looking forward to playing a bit! *



LOL. Yeah. Coy's a great guy, a very solid martial artist, and a good uke (lots of practice  )

I hit it off with all of Prof. Lansdale's guys, but Coy and I really hit it off and we became pretty close.

When I got my black belt in Shen Chuan, they didn't have any belts that would fit me. Coy took his belt off and gave it to me. I was floored. If there hadn't been a room full of people (including a couple of visitors from, I believe, Wisconsin), I'd have shed some manly tears. Coy's belt fit me OK (I wasn't a small guy). But I've lost about 60 pounds since then so the ends hang pretty low when I put it on now. But, still, it brings an affectionate grin to my face when I think of Coy.

I'm very glad and proud to be a part of the Shen Chuan family.

Mike


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