# Tito Ortiz Vs. Demetrious Johnson



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 10, 2018)

Match 5 of the MT MMA Tournament. If anyone is confused about the way it works, here is the link explaining the boxing tournament, the rules are the same just a different sport.

Martial Talk Boxing Tournament With Poll/Bracket

This is the bracket listing, for anyone curious MartialTalk MMA Tournament - Challonge

The match is Tito Ortiz Vs. Demetrious Johnson
Have your say: Tito Ortiz Vs. Demetrious Johnson


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## Headhunter (Mar 10, 2018)

DJ no doubt. The most well rounded guy in all of mma can ko you or submit you or go the distance at a high pace and a genuine nice and humble guy whereas Tito was an arrogant jerk who was terrified to fight chuck Liddell and he's the reason we have all this interim title rubbish these days he's the one that started it


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## Martial D (Mar 10, 2018)

Um, what's the catch-weight here?

Cause demitrius would fit in ortiz' pocket.


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## Headhunter (Mar 10, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Um, what's the catch-weight here?
> 
> Cause demitrius would fit in ortiz' pocket.


This has nothing to do with weight classes


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## Martial D (Mar 10, 2018)

Oh really? So for the purposes of these threads we are supposed to imagine everyone is the same size?

Cause a guy that walks around at 130 pounds gets manhandled by a 230 pounder 99/100 times. DJ would get squished.


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## Headhunter (Mar 10, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Oh really? So for the purposes of these threads we are supposed to imagine everyone is the same size?
> 
> Cause a guy that walks around at 130 pounds gets manhandled by a 230 pounder 99/100 times. DJ would get squished.


Okay buddy take a deep breath and don't take it so seriously


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## Martial D (Mar 10, 2018)

I guess anything more than a sentence is taking it too seriously? LOL

This is a what if thread. I don't see why size isn't a factor when speculating about a fight. In fact, it's a huge factor.


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## CB Jones (Mar 10, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I guess anything more than a sentence is taking it too seriously? LOL
> 
> This is a what if thread. I don't see why size isn't a factor when speculating about a fight. In fact, it's a huge factor.



I see the tournament as selecting who was a better fighter......not who would win in an actual fight.


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## CB Jones (Mar 10, 2018)

Too me Johnson is a much better fighter.....Johnson easy.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 10, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I guess anything more than a sentence is taking it too seriously? LOL
> 
> This is a what if thread. I don't see why size isn't a factor when speculating about a fight. In fact, it's a huge factor.


Essentially what CB stated. Read the first post of the link in this thread (or any of the x vs x threads), specifies that it's not just weight. Otherwise it would be pretty boring.


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## Anarax (Mar 10, 2018)

DJ


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## Headhunter (Mar 10, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Too me Johnson is a much better fighter.....Johnson easy.


Without question. Tito was a decent wrestler that's it. The rest of his game was average at best and he frankly couldn't take a shot. When he got hit he crumbled simple as that. He never got knocked out cold he just always took a few then went down in the fetal position similar to lesnar. DJ has very rarely been in trouble in a fight


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## Martial D (Mar 10, 2018)

Well if it's a matter of skill it's a no brainier. All other things equal they aren't even in the same league skill wise.

Tito was always a one trick pony.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 10, 2018)

Honestly skill wise I can't think of anyone who could compete with him. His weight is a shame, if he was a higher class, he would be much more famous than he is.


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## drop bear (Mar 10, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I guess anything more than a sentence is taking it too seriously? LOL
> 
> This is a what if thread. I don't see why size isn't a factor when speculating about a fight. In fact, it's a huge factor.



Even with the size difference I think that one could go either way.


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## Tames D (Mar 10, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Honestly skill wise I can't think of anyone who could compete with him.


I can think of two...  
Dominick Cruz
Brad Pickett


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## Headhunter (Mar 11, 2018)

Tames D said:


> I can think of two...
> Dominick Cruz
> Brad Pickett


He'd destroy Pickett in a rematch. At the time he was working full time along with fighting


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## Tames D (Mar 11, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> He'd destroy Pickett in a rematch. At the time he was working full time along with fighting


I guess that excuse is as good as any.


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## Reedone816 (Mar 11, 2018)

DJ, the skill disparity too big.

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## Steve (Mar 12, 2018)

Tames D said:


> I guess that excuse is as good as any.


LOL.  Wait.  You're suggesting Pickett would beat DJ now?  He's 6-10 since that fight. 

I think DJ, but as others have noted, it's not a given considering the size disparity.  DJ is one of the most technically skilled fighters ever, but he's a little guy.  would be an interesting test for the skill vs size discussions around here, though, if this were ever to really happen.


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## Headhunter (Mar 12, 2018)

Steve said:


> LOL.  Wait.  You're suggesting Pickett would beat DJ now?  He's 6-10 since that fight.
> 
> I think DJ, but as others have noted, it's not a given considering the size disparity.  DJ is one of the most technically skilled fighters ever, but he's a little guy.  would be an interesting test for the skill vs size discussions around here, though, if this were ever to really happen.


Exactly I mean pickets a good fighter but dj is on another level now. There's a reason they never had a rematch and that's the fact picket never got near a title fight


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## Tames D (Mar 12, 2018)

Steve said:


> LOL.  Wait.  You're suggesting Pickett would beat DJ now?  He's 6-10 since that fight.


Not suggesting that at all... Just pointing out two guys that beat him


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## Steve (Mar 12, 2018)

Tames D said:


> Not suggesting that at all... Just pointing out two guys that beat him


I guess that excuse is as good as any.


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## Tames D (Mar 12, 2018)




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## CB Jones (Mar 13, 2018)

Steve said:


> LOL.  Wait.  You're suggesting Pickett would beat DJ now?  He's 6-10 since that fight.
> 
> I think DJ, but as others have noted, it's not a given considering the size disparity.  DJ is one of the most technically skilled fighters ever, but he's a little guy.  would be an interesting test for the skill vs size discussions around here, though, if this were ever to really happen.



If the tourney is based on choosing the fighter with the most skill....DJ is definitely one of the favorites


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## Steve (Mar 13, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> If the tourney is based on choosing the fighter with the most skill....DJ is definitely one of the favorites


Agreed.  Personally, I’m not taking this seriously enough to worry too much about some arbitrary rules.   As far as I’m concerned, you can’t pick the wrong guy.   I submitted chuck Wepner and buster douglas  in the boxing tournament, and didn’t think twice about it.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 14, 2018)

Going to call it here at 8-1, DJ.


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## Headhunter (Mar 14, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Going to call it here at 8-1, DJ.


So much for the "people's champion" lol people really don't like Tito


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## Steve (Mar 14, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> So much for the "people's champion" lol people really don't like Tito


I actually like him.  He was a great coach on TUF . first one who seemed like he was there for the competitors

I just don't think he beats mighty mouse


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## Headhunter (Mar 14, 2018)

Steve said:


> I actually like him.  He was a great coach on TUF . first one who seemed like he was there for the competitors
> 
> I just don't think he beats mighty mouse


Yeah I liked him then to (don't agree him being the one who was there for them I thought randy did a good at that to especially with a guy like Jason Thacker ) 

But then In TUF 11 he was more of a jerk starting fights breaking down doors etc and other antics. Plus I never liked how he tried to avoid fighting chuck Liddell plus the constant excuses he made after every loss.


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## Buka (Mar 14, 2018)

Steve said:


> I actually like him.  He was a great coach on TUF . first one who seemed like he was there for the competitors
> 
> I just don't think he beats mighty mouse



Yes, he was a terrific coach on TUF. But what amazed me was how awful a coach Ken Shamrock was opposite him. And as the series went on reading the expressions on the faces of Shamrocks team, was to me, actually painful. And Tito was just so good with those young guys.

I never met Ortiz, but a close buddy of mine knows him pretty well. About a month before that TUF season started I was talking with my buddy and mentioned Ortiz. He told me that if I met him I would love him, that he's one of the nicest people you would ever meet. He told me that Tito's whole Huntington Beach Bad Boy image was a marketing act he put in play himself. 

Seems like it worked pretty darn good.


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## CB Jones (Mar 14, 2018)

Buka said:


> He told me that Tito's whole Huntington Beach Bad Boy image was a marketing act he put in play himself.



I remember thinking he was gonna kill Dana White in their boxing match....probably a good thing Tito bailed on it.


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## Buka (Mar 14, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> I remember thinking he was gonna kill Dana White in their boxing match....probably a good thing Tito bailed on it.



I got sucked in waiting for that. I think both of them we're BS-ing everybody all along.


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## Headhunter (Mar 14, 2018)

Buka said:


> Yes, he was a terrific coach on TUF. But what amazed me was how awful a coach Ken Shamrock was opposite him. And as the series went on reading the expressions on the faces of Shamrocks team, was to me, actually painful. And Tito was just so good with those young guys.
> 
> I never met Ortiz, but a close buddy of mine knows him pretty well. About a month before that TUF season started I was talking with my buddy and mentioned Ortiz. He told me that if I met him I would love him, that he's one of the nicest people you would ever meet. He told me that Tito's whole Huntington Beach Bad Boy image was a marketing act he put in play himself.
> 
> Seems like it worked pretty darn good.


Reality tv is only one step above scripted tv tbh. It's easy to make one guy look bad and one guy look guy when you have hours of footage to put into a 45 minute episode. Thing is shamrock is a known good coach who produced some great fighters in the ufc. I think Ortiz success really had more to do with just the fact he had the better fighters on his team Tito had Michael bisping, Kendall grove, matt hammil, Rory singer to name a few whereas shamrocks only decent fighters were ed Herman and kalib Starnes and those 2 won their fights in the house (Starnes only lost because of a rib injury)


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## Headhunter (Mar 14, 2018)

Buka said:


> Yes, he was a terrific coach on TUF. But what amazed me was how awful a coach Ken Shamrock was opposite him. And as the series went on reading the expressions on the faces of Shamrocks team, was to me, actually painful. And Tito was just so good with those young guys.
> 
> I never met Ortiz, but a close buddy of mine knows him pretty well. About a month before that TUF season started I was talking with my buddy and mentioned Ortiz. He told me that if I met him I would love him, that he's one of the nicest people you would ever meet. He told me that Tito's whole Huntington Beach Bad Boy image was a marketing act he put in play himself.
> 
> Seems like it worked pretty darn good.


I think part of its an act but I do believe he's bit of a jerk as well like how he always makes excuses for his loses and the way he carries himself at time or when he held on the guillotine against bader after he tapped.


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## Buka (Mar 14, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Reality tv is only one step above scripted tv tbh. It's easy to make one guy look bad and one guy look guy when you have hours of footage to put into a 45 minute episode. Thing is shamrock is a known good coach who produced some great fighters in the ufc. I think Ortiz success really had more to do with just the fact he had the better fighters on his team Tito had Michael bisping, Kendall grove, matt hammil, Rory singer to name a few whereas shamrocks only decent fighters were ed Herman and kalib Starnes and those 2 won their fights in the house (Starnes only lost because of a rib injury)



In all the years I watched TUF on television, the one thing that sticks out in my mind is how terrible a coach Ken Shamrock was. Awful.


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## Headhunter (Mar 14, 2018)

Buka said:


> In all the years I watched TUF on television, the one thing that sticks out in my mind is how terrible a coach Ken Shamrock was. Awful.


Again these things can be easily edited to make him look bad


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## Buka (Mar 14, 2018)

Yeah, you're probably right. They sure did a good job of it. 

You know what I feel bad about? The fans that hooked onto the UFC in later years primarily saw Ken Shamrock losing fights. They have no appreciation for what a great fighter he was.


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## Martial D (Mar 14, 2018)

Buka said:


> Yeah, you're probably right. They sure did a good job of it.
> 
> You know what I feel bad about? The fans that hooked onto the UFC in later years primarily saw Ken Shamrock losing fights. They have no appreciation for what a great fighter he was.


Ehh, I'm a big fan of the early days, and in his time he did well with that ankle lock, I'll give him that. The reason he lost all those later fights though is because he never really got anything else while the game evolved past him, and all the other one trick ponies that used to be top dogs back then.


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## Reedone816 (Mar 14, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> I think part of its an act but I do believe he's bit of a jerk as well like how he always makes excuses for his loses and the way he carries himself at time or when he held on the guillotine against bader after he tapped.


Well based on the rule, you need to wait until the reff acknowledge the tap.
Some top fighters been caught using the 'fake' tap to escape themselves and feigned ignorance afterwards.

It is understandable to hold the submission as is until the reff said something, what is not a sportsmanlike conduct is when you put extra 'crank' before you release it, like certain bjj fighter that had been booted from both ufc and bellator.

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## Buka (Mar 14, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Ehh, I'm a big fan of the early days, and in his time he did well with that ankle lock, I'll give him that. The reason he lost all those later fights though is because he never really got anything else while the game evolved past him, and all the other one trick ponies that used to be top dogs back then.



Yes,I agree, it did evolve past him. And, in my opinion, if Royce hadn't been in UFC 1, I think Shamrock would have won the whole darn thing. But you know how "ifs" are. 

If you haven't read it, you should check out "Is This Legal?"


 

What a fun and insightful read.


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## Martial D (Mar 14, 2018)

Buka said:


> Yes,I agree, it did evolve past him. And, in my opinion, if Royce hadn't been in UFC 1, I think Shamrock would have won the whole darn thing. But you know how "ifs" are.
> 
> If you haven't read it, you should check out "Is This Legal?"
> 
> ...


Well, if Gracie wasn't there it wouldn't have even happened. UFC 1 was built ground up to be the Gracie show.

Gordue vs Shamrock in the finale would have certainly been a classic though.


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## Buka (Mar 14, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Well, if Gracie wasn't there it wouldn't have even happened. UFC 1 was built ground up to be the Gracie show.
> 
> Gordue vs Shamrock in the finale would have certainly been a classic though.



It did end up that way, but Art Davie was trying to answer an age old question in America, "Who would win, a boxer or a wrestler."


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## Martial D (Mar 14, 2018)

Buka said:


> It did end up that way, but Art Davie was trying to answer an age old question in America, "Who would win, a boxer or a wrestler."


Well yes, that was the public narrative. You might find this interesting though.
Rorion Gracie and the day he created the UFC - MMA Fighting


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## Headhunter (Mar 15, 2018)

Reedone816 said:


> Well based on the rule, you need to wait until the reff acknowledge the tap.
> Some top fighters been caught using the 'fake' tap to escape themselves and feigned ignorance afterwards.
> 
> It is understandable to hold the submission as is until the reff said something, what is not a sportsmanlike conduct is when you put extra 'crank' before you release it, like certain bjj fighter that had been booted from both ufc and bellator.
> ...


The referee had stepped in but he refused to let go for a few seconds


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## Buka (Mar 15, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Well yes, that was the public narrative. You might find this interesting though.
> Rorion Gracie and the day he created the UFC - MMA Fighting



Yes, I found that _very_ interesting. 
I hope you read art Davies' book sometime, you would find that very interesting as well


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## Steve (Mar 15, 2018)

Buka said:


> Yes, I found that _very_ interesting.
> I hope you read art Davies' book sometime, you would find that very interesting as well


Agreed, Buka.  A lot is made of Rorion Gracie's role in the early UFCs, which is definitely worth noting.  But Art Davies was not a passive, silent partner.  The early UFCs were the result of compatible, but not identical, visions.


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## Martial D (Mar 15, 2018)

Buka said:


> Yes, I found that _very_ interesting.
> I hope you read art Davies' book sometime, you would find that very interesting as well


I've never heard anyone contradict the Gracie version of events before. I had always assumed that 'boxer or wrestler' bit was media hype.

I'll check out his book.


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## Reedone816 (Mar 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> The referee had stepped in but he refused to let go for a few seconds


I stand corrected, no wonder he said what he said in his post fight interview after chael fight...

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