# Is Karate a sport?



## Wadowaza (Aug 6, 2016)

Yesterday I have posted on my Wado-ryu Karate Blog an article about the inclusion of Karate in the Olympics. The World Karate Federation websites, in its news center, onepnly referred to Karate as a "sport". Nothing’s wrong with the Olympics, to me, but, to I have some problems with the word _sport_ when, generally speaking, they use it to define a martial art and, specifically, to mean Karate as WKF website did. What do you think about?

PS: If you want to read my article, you are welcome here: The true Olympics of Karate


----------



## Buka (Aug 6, 2016)

Welcome to MartialTalk, bro. Hope you enjoy it.

Karate sparring can be used as a sport, heck, anything can, really. Fun sport if you do it well.
Karate itself? Nah. (just my opinion)


----------



## Wadowaza (Aug 6, 2016)

I think you're right, Buka, but I'm afraid that sport approach will soon overcome Budo approach in Karate too. We risk to lose what actually makes Karate different from Kick boxing or MMA. Just my opinion too.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Aug 6, 2016)

Karate was a sport invented in the 1800's, and the name caught on, and came to represent all the various kempos.


----------



## Wadowaza (Aug 6, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Karate was a sport invented in the 1800's, and the name caught on, and came to represent all the various kempos.



Your point of view is quite interesting, but I doubt Mabuni and Funakoshi had sport stuff in their heads when they "invented" Karate. But actually we can observe that al those disciplines that changed their desinence from "jutsu" to "do" had gradually become competitive sports.


----------



## Danny T (Aug 6, 2016)

Wadowaza said:


> We risk to lose what actually makes Karate different from Kick boxing or MMA. Just my opinion too.


You do know that Kickboxing originated from Karate?


----------



## drop bear (Aug 6, 2016)

This is the same as the gay marriage debate.  

How someone else defines karate does not affect how you define karate.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Aug 6, 2016)

Wadowaza said:


> Your point of view is quite interesting, but I doubt Mabuni and Funakoshi had sport stuff in their heads when they "invented" Karate. But actually we can observe that al those disciplines that changed their desinence from "jutsu" to "do" had gradually become competitive sports.


It is just a fact. I doubt those guys thought of sport, as well, but calling something Karate does not mean it is a sport, but the word karate is a sport word.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Aug 6, 2016)

Sport Karate is.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 6, 2016)

drop bear said:


> This is the same as the gay marriage debate.
> 
> How someone else defines karate does not affect how you define karate.



No, 'gay' marriage has a well and agreed definition. People's opinion on whether it should be legal or not however differ.


----------



## Wadowaza (Aug 6, 2016)

Danny T said:


> You do know that Kickboxing originated from Karate?



Maybe it originated from karate and western boxe. I think we may say that. But in my opinion we're missing the point: is a martial art a sport or it is something else?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Aug 6, 2016)

Wadowaza said:


> Maybe it originated from karate and western boxe. I think we may say that. But in my opinion we're missing the point: is a martial art a sport or it is something else?


A sport can be extracted from just about any martial art.


----------



## donald1 (Aug 6, 2016)

Yes and no. IMO; comparing traditional karate and sport karate is like comparing a wolf and a house dog.


----------



## Danny T (Aug 6, 2016)

Wadowaza said:


> Maybe it originated from karate and western boxe. I think we may say that. But in my opinion we're missing the point: is a martial art a sport or it is something else?


Actually the term ‘kickboxing’ was introduced in the 1960s by Japanese fight promoter Osamu Noguchi  as a hybrid martial art that he introduced in 1958 where he combined Muay Thai and Karate. Today there are many offshoots of the original Kickboxing in Japan.
As to the term 'Karate'...
Today there are several different definitions for that term.
Karate is a method of training as well as is a catch all term and as such is used to describe a particular type of sport.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 6, 2016)

Wadowaza said:


> but I'm afraid that sport approach will soon overcome Budo approach in Karate too.


There are 2 different set of skills that people should train. Skill that can be used in

- sport,
- dealing with unfriendly challengers (black hand).

If you train both set of skills, it doesn't matter whether you train for "sport" or "self-defense", you have covered both areas.

For example, even if striking is not allowed in the wrestling "sport", it doesn't prevent you from training certain skill as showing in the following clip.


----------



## JP3 (Aug 6, 2016)

Pretty much any athletic endeavor can be modified to become a competitive sport.  All one need to do is add rules for scoring and a competitive framework, and Wham... you've made a sport. Or a game.

But, Karate itself, originally? Nah... art & science, not sport.

Judo is Sported-up jujitsu, like that (if you are in a competition judo school, rather than in a gentleman's judo program).


----------



## PhotonGuy (Aug 16, 2016)

Wadowaza said:


> Yesterday I have posted on my Wado-ryu Karate Blog an article about the inclusion of Karate in the Olympics. The World Karate Federation websites, in its news center, onepnly referred to Karate as a "sport". Nothing’s wrong with the Olympics, to me, but, to I have some problems with the word _sport_ when, generally speaking, they use it to define a martial art and, specifically, to mean Karate as WKF website did. What do you think about?
> 
> PS: If you want to read my article, you are welcome here: The true Olympics of Karate



Sure Karate is a sport, but it is so much more.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 16, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> Sure Karate is a sport, but it is so much more.



You know 'karate' is a generic term covering a lot of things, so which karate is a sport? Would you say those styles that train for fighting and self defence are sports, or are those ones that compete full contact sport or only those that do points sparring. What about those that never compete are they sports? Saying karate is a sport is like saying cars are racing cars, clearly some are but most certainly aren't.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Aug 16, 2016)

Wadowaza said:


> ...but I doubt Mabuni and Funakoshi had sport stuff in their heads when they "invented" Karate...



I would go further back to Higaonna and Itosu.  Through those two men did all the modern Ryus flow with the exception of Uechi (Kanbun).

Karate, as originally designed was not sport.  It can be changed into a sport but that is the key word, 'changed'. Sport can kinda-sorta look like traditional (read self-defense) karate as far as window dressing but the teaching methodology and bunkai is completely removed from each other.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Aug 16, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Karate was a sport invented in the 1800's, and the name caught on, and came to represent all the various kempos.





Touch Of Death said:


> It is just a fact. I doubt those guys thought of sport, as well, but calling something Karate does not mean it is a sport, but the word karate is a sport word.


I think your history is a little fuzzy.  Can you explain how the word karate is a sport word?

To the OP,
Original okinawan tode is not sport, was not designed to be sport and was not taught that way.  It was only after WW11 ,during the American occupation that sport was introduced.


----------



## Steve (Aug 16, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> I think your history is a little fuzzy.  Can you explain how the word karate is a sport word?
> 
> To the OP,
> Original okinawan tode is not sport, was not designed to be sport and was not taught that way.  It was only after WW11 ,during the American occupation that sport was introduced.


WW11???  That hit my funny bone.  I think 2 world wars was plenty.  I sincerely hope we don't have a third... much less an eleventh! 

And just to throw in my two cents, my impression is that some styles are sport, and others are not.  Some schools emphasize sport and others do not.  Karate is one of those words that means different things to different people, and so it's a tough question to answer.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Aug 16, 2016)

Steve said:


> WW11???  That hit my funny bone.  I think 2 world wars was plenty.  I sincerely hope we don't have a third... much less an eleventh!
> 
> And just to throw in my two cents, my impression is that some styles are sport, and others are not.  Some schools emphasize sport and others do not.  Karate is one of those words that means different things to different people, and so it's a tough question to answer.



Oooppps I think I let my time travel capabilities out of the bag.  But yes your correct WW2


----------



## Touch Of Death (Aug 16, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> I think your history is a little fuzzy.  Can you explain how the word karate is a sport word?
> 
> To the OP,
> Original okinawan tode is not sport, was not designed to be sport and was not taught that way.  It was only after WW11 ,during the American occupation that sport was introduced.


I don't believe that we had to teach the Japanese how to sport up their fighting systems. I think you mean it became much more popular, after WWII.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Aug 16, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> I don't believe that we had to teach the Japanese how to sport up their fighting systems. I think you mean it became much more popular, after WWII.



Agreed.  I would suggest that it was Funakoshi circa 1924 that began to 'change' the karate he had learned in Okinawa to better fit Japanese needs of the time.  Certainly he is responsible for the Dan/Kyu system in karate, uniforms, standardized curriculum and I would say a more sport element.  

As I've discussed in the past, Itosu was a college professor.  He developed the Pinan katas that clearly have two different bunkai teaching methodologies.  Furthermore, he was responsible for getting karate into the school curriculum of Okinawa.  But that version of karate was 'simplified' to a more block/punch/kick format by necessity as school children don't need to know the more 'nasty' aspects of karate.

Fast forward to WW2 and the sudden influx of allied troops (and liberated Koreans).  Suddenly, once Imperialistic karate masters have to teach these allied troops (the invaders by their perspective) in order to make a living. What are they going to teach, the adult _end-the-fight-right-now-by-doing-the-most-damage-as-possible-in-the-shortest-amount-of-time_ or_ children's karate?_  By and large it was children's karate which the troops took back home after their tour ended.  It was this form of karate that was morphed into sport.  

Older traditional karate clearly has chokes, ground fighting, joint locks (destruction), cavity pressing, sealing the breath, misplacing the bone and other elements obtained by heavy Chinese influence.  These elements can't be morphed into sport as they are outside of a rule set and have more permanent results.  Whereas block/punch/kick fits in perfectly with competition as it can be scored.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Aug 16, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> I don't believe that we had to teach the Japanese how to sport up their fighting systems. I think you mean it became much more popular, after WWII.





Kong Soo Do said:


> Agreed.  I would suggest that it was Funakoshi circa 1924 that began to 'change' the karate he had learned in Okinawa to better fit Japanese needs of the time.  Certainly he is responsible for the Dan/Kyu system in karate, uniforms, standardized curriculum and I would say a more sport element.
> 
> As I've discussed in the past, Itosu was a college professor.  He developed the Pinan katas that clearly have two different bunkai teaching methodologies.  Furthermore, he was responsible for getting karate into the school curriculum of Okinawa.  But that version of karate was 'simplified' to a more block/punch/kick format by necessity as school children don't need to know the more 'nasty' aspects of karate.
> 
> ...



oh good lord,,
i dont have the time and energy to argue this.  you two have been around these forums long enough to know better.
The Meeting of Okinawan Karate Masters in 1936
JCS: Documentation Regarding the Budo Ban
History of the Ryukyu Islands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Okinawan martial arts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Kong Soo Do said:


> What are they going to teach, the adult _end-the-fight-right-now-by-doing-the-most-damage-as-possible-in-the-shortest-amount-of-time_ or_ children's karate?_ By and large it was children's karate which the troops took back home after their tour ended. It was this form of karate that was morphed into sport.



and this is just flat out wrong.  i have it on good authority from both the Okinawan masters and American students who trained under the Okinawan masters who are now masters themselves that this is just wrong and not true.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Aug 16, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> oh good lord,,
> i dont have the time and energy to argue this.  you two have been around these forums long enough to know better.
> The Meeting of Okinawan Karate Masters in 1936
> JCS: Documentation Regarding the Budo Ban
> ...


I heard it was. I think it is a, depends on who ya talk to, thing.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Aug 16, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> oh good lord,,
> i dont have the time and energy to argue this.



Seems like you are arguing it.  And I stand by what I've said.  



hoshin1600 said:


> i have it on good authority from both the Okinawan masters and American students who trained under the Okinawan masters who are now masters themselves that this is just wrong and not true.



And I have it on good authority from Masters I've trained with (of several ethnic backgrounds and training in Okiwnwa) that it is true.  Funakoshi did have to modify what he had learned to adapt to Japanese 'standards'. There are two methodologies to the Pinan kata bunkai just as there are differing methodologies for many kata bunkai.  Some see the opening movement of Pinan Shodan as a block against a punch whilst others see it as a shoulder lock and/or takedown.  

We've talked about this on this forum (and Martial Warrior) for nearly a decade and a half i.e block/punch/kick vs. deeper meaning techniques.  

Peace.


----------



## Paul_D (Aug 16, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> and this is just flat out wrong.


From what I understand, from people who know more about this than me, when Itosu introduced Karate into the school syllabus he knew it there were certain techniques, such as joint locks or strikes to the neck/throat carotid sinus (Shuto Uke/Age Uke), that were too dangerous for children to be practising on each other and so he disguised them as blocks.  

He also started teaching kata without teaching children the brutal applications the kata where there to record.  
It was this children's version of karate that became popular and spread.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 16, 2016)

What i dont get is.  What were karate people using to stop punches before they realised that they could use those joint lock thingies to do it?


----------



## Paul_D (Aug 16, 2016)

drop bear said:


> What i dont get is.  What were karate people using to stop punches before they realised that they could use those joint lock thingies to do it?


Joint locks aren't being used to stop incoming punches.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 16, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Joint locks aren't being used to stop incoming punches.



Tough times to be a karate guy then


----------



## Paul_D (Aug 16, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Tough times to be a karate guy then


Only if you are stupid enough to stand there and wait until someone starts throwing punches at you before you take action.


----------



## pgsmith (Aug 16, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Only if you are stupid enough to stand there and wait until someone starts throwing punches at you before you take action.


  Or if you're being deliberately obtuse in order to be argumentative.


----------



## Paul_D (Aug 16, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> Or if you're being deliberately obtuse in order to be argumentative.


Not at all.  Do you think that karate is intended to be used by waiting until someone starts throwing punches at you?  

_“When faced with someone who disrupts the peace or who will do one harm, one is as a warrior in battle, and so it only stands to reason that one should seize the initiative and pre-empt the enemy’s use of violence. Such action in no way goes against the precept of ‘no first attack’ …the expression ‘karate ni sente nashi’ [no first attack in karate] should be properly understood to mean that the karateka must never take a hostile attitude, or be the cause of a violent incident; he or she should always have the virtues of calmness, prudence and humility in dealing with others.”_ *– Kenwa Mabuni*

_“There is a saying ‘no first attack in karate’ …To be sure, it is not the budo [martial art] spirit to train for the purpose of striking others without good reason. I assume that you already understand that in karate one's primary goal must be the training of mind and body… But when a situation can't be avoided and the enemy is intent on doing you serious harm, you must fight ferociously. When one does fight, taking control of the enemy is vital, and one must take that control with the very first move. Therefore, in a fight one must attack first. It is very important to remember this.”_* – Choki Motobu*

_"When there are no avenues of escape or one is caught even before any attempt to escape can be made, then for the first time the use of self-defense techniques should be considered. Even at times like these, do not show any intention of attacking, but first let the attacker become careless. At that time attack him concentrating one's whole strength in one blow to a vital point and in the moment of surprise, escape and seek shelter and help."_ *– Gichin Funakoshi*


----------



## hoshin1600 (Aug 16, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> From what I understand, from people who know more about this than me, when Itosu introduced Karate into the school syllabus he knew it there were certain techniques, such as joint locks or strikes to the neck/throat carotid sinus (Shuto Uke/Age Uke), that were too dangerous for children to be practising on each other and so he disguised them as blocks.


this is not what i was disputing. it is well known that the Pinan Kata was developed by taking the traditional kata sequences as found in Kusanku and Jion to make simple non lethal kata to implement into the Okinawan school system.  


Kong Soo Do said:


> it was children's karate which the troops took back home after their tour ended.


this is primarily what i oppose.. this is a slap in the face to every person to ever lean martial arts in Okinawa and every teacher who welcomed an American student into their dojo.   Okinawan Dojo were part of a persons household. to invite a student in was a big deal. still is.   if the teacher had no intention of teaching something of worth and value why invite them in at all. why not just refuse to teach Americans. which many did.  but some teachers did not hold this racism and prejudice attitude and welcomed Americans. it is offensive to their memory to say they were not passing on the tradition they spent their lives to learn and were just looking for a buck.
the statement also implies that every person who has learnt karate ever since in Japan, America, korea and else where are not practicing "real" karate.  somehow to this day the Okinawans still hold the true karate hidden away in the closet somewhere.  
it is an incorrect premise.
in truth American GI may only spend a few short years in Okinawa. long enough to earn a black belt and then come back to the States and open a dojo. this was often the case.  they were inexperienced for sure. imagine someone with only three years training being responsible for the introduction and spread of a particular karate system to the Americas and the world at large.  yes they made mistakes but over time those errors in understanding were corrected.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Aug 16, 2016)

@ hoshin 1600

I agree with you in small part, but disagree in large part.  I have a realistic appraisal of the era whereas I feel you have a romantic idea of the era.  Was honor a cornerstone of Japanese culture?  Sure.  So were 'comfort stations' where a woman was raped up to 70 times a day by Japanese men or forced labor camps or inhuman torture.  The culture was imperialistic (Japanese) and they were soundly and overwhelmingly defeated by those they genuinely thought inferior.  Perhaps some had honor to teach real 'adult' karate but in large they did not.  And allied G.I.'s learned block/punch/kick and brought it back to their home countries.  

Back to the OP, karate did not start as a sport.  And what I refer to as 'adult' karate cannot be made into sport due to it's very nature whereas 'childrens' karate can easily be made into sport.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Aug 16, 2016)

Kong so do, also makes the the mistaken assumption that Funakoshi altered karate to meet some kind of Japanese "standard" what ever that means.  Yes he did alter the way he taught to  groups of hundreds from the way he was taught one on one. But the reality was that it was the Japanese military machine that took karate and nationalized it and stripped it from it's okinawan heritage into a soldier making propaganda  vehicle. It was not of any Okinawans doing. If was the Japanese themselves that watered down karate...and it wasnt all karate styles.  However if anyone read the link I posted about the meeting in Okinawa on the name karate. It is clear that the Okinawans called their art "chinese hand" or just Te or tode   but due to the Japanese pressure they agreed to the change to empty hand as well as concessions in the names of kata and the like.  Luckily we still have the original okinawan styles in their entirety and were not morphed into one single Japanese system ad was the imperial intent.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Aug 16, 2016)

Kong Soo Do said:


> @ hoshin 1600
> 
> I agree with you in small part, but disagree in large part.  I have a realistic appraisal of the era whereas I feel you have a romantic idea of the era.  Was honor a cornerstone of Japanese culture?  Sure.  So were 'comfort stations' where a woman was raped up to 70 times a day by Japanese men or forced labor camps or inhuman torture.  The culture was imperialistic (Japanese) and they were soundly and overwhelmingly defeated by those they genuinely thought inferior.  Perhaps some had honor to teach real 'adult' karate but in large they did not.  And allied G.I.'s learned block/punch/kick and brought it back to their home countries.
> 
> Back to the OP, karate did not start as a sport.  And what I refer to as 'adult' karate cannot be made into sport due to it's very nature whereas 'childrens' karate can easily be made into sport.



Karate is not Japanese it's okinawan. So your premise is incorrect from the start.  There was no imperial national fever in Okinawa


----------



## hoshin1600 (Aug 16, 2016)

The service men you refer to were stationed in Okinawa not Japan.  The first authentic karate was brought to Massachusetts by George Mattson, uechi ryu karate.  He was Stationed in okinawa. There was also Chuck Merriman and Anthony marikian both of goju ryu.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Aug 16, 2016)

Tsutomo oshima is the one who brought shotokan to California in 1955 he was neither American nor an American GI....

Where is this realistic appraisal? ????


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Aug 16, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> Kong so do, also makes the the mistaken assumption that Funakoshi altered karate to meet some kind of Japanese "standard" what ever that means.



Rather arrogant presumption on your part.  I've already stated some of the requirements i.e. standardized uniform, ranking structure and curriculum.  It is not mistaken assumption, it is simply historical fact.  



hoshin1600 said:


> Yes he did alter the way he taught to groups of hundreds from the way he was taught one on one. But the reality was that it was the Japanese military machine that took karate and nationalized it and stripped it from it's okinawan heritage into a soldier making propaganda vehicle.



It was the government as a whole and not just the military.  



hoshin1600 said:


> It was not of any Okinawans doing.



Funakoshi was the one credited with introduction to mainland Japan.  



hoshin1600 said:


> However if anyone read the link I posted about the meeting in Okinawa on the name karate. It is clear that the Okinawans called their art "chinese hand" or just Te or tode but due to the Japanese pressure they agreed to the change to empty hand as well as concessions in the names of kata and the like.



Another of the standards I mentioned.  You're helping to prove my point.  Thank you.



hoshin1600 said:


> Karate is not Japanese it's okinawan



No one said it was.  



hoshin1600 said:


> The service men you refer to were stationed in Okinawa not Japan.



Both.  We've had U.S. servicemen and women stationed in Japan since the 1950's.  It's part of the USFJ which is in the Pacific command.  



hoshin1600 said:


> The first authentic karate was brought to Massachusetts by George Mattson, uechi ryu karate.



Which wasn't called Uechi Ryu karate until the 1950's.  Before that Uechi Kanbun Sensei identified it as Pangainoon (or depending upon who you talk to, a variation on that theme).


----------



## hoshin1600 (Aug 16, 2016)

There were many Okinawans in Japan teaching and yes Funakoshi gets the credit because it was he who was invited to the capital to teach.  But he was teaching in japan in1922 it wasn't until 1939 that he went to Tokyo. This is not proof that it was Funakoshi that watered down karate as you say.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 17, 2016)

Karate was brought to the UK ( and as far as I know to Europe as well) by Japanese martial artists not returning service personnel. We didn't have any stationed in Japan.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Aug 17, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> There were many Okinawans in Japan teaching and yes Funakoshi gets the credit because it was he who was invited to the capital to teach.  But he was teaching in japan in1922 it wasn't until 1939 that he went to Tokyo. This is not proof that it was Funakoshi that watered down karate as you say.



And when precisely did I say Funakoshi watered down karate?  I stated he modified karate at the 'request' of the Japanese government as previously stated, which cannot be denied and which you have confirmed.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Aug 17, 2016)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Fast forward to WW2 and the sudden influx of allied troops (and liberated Koreans). Suddenly, once Imperialistic karate masters have to teach these allied troops (the invaders by their perspective) in order to make a living. What are they going to teach, the adult _end-the-fight-right-now-by-doing-the-most-damage-as-possible-in-the-shortest-amount-of-time_ or_ children's karate?_ By and large it was children's karate which the troops took back home after their tour ended. It was this form of karate that was morphed into sport.


i thinki can see where our disconnect lies.    
1...your post implies karate,,meaning all karate.  i think you mean only Japanese main land, Itosu karate thus, Funakoshi, meaning Shotokan.  it was only Shotokan that was branded as the nationalistic form of karate. it  was only taught that way between 1939 and the end of the war. it was only taught in that format to Japanese school children and Japanese military and was banned by the American occupation agreement.
2... you are implying that American GI learnt karate and brought it back to the united states.
there are by my memory 10 or more recognized Okinawan ryu.  non of which made any changes to their system due to main land Japanese pressure.  it was here that a few American GI learnt karate and were given authorization from the style organization and/or head of the ryu to teach back in the States.  shotokan karate was brought to the world Via Japanese who had learned from Funakoshi dating back to 1922.  
if by chance there were service men who came to the US and taught watered down karate they were frauds and charlatans piggy backing on the populartity of karate..   i can name names but forum policy wont allow it and it is not polite since a few of these systems are well recognized and are now established.
there were only a small handfull of authentic American black belts who were recognized by the ryu governing body authorized to teach.

you are taking facts and mish mashing them to create a narrative that is not factual.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Aug 17, 2016)

No, you are putting words in my mouth which I did not say to forward your opinion.  And it is an opinion that I disagree with.  


> there are by my memory 10 or more recognized Okinawan ryu. non of which made any changes to their system due to main land Japanese pressure.



Really?  So Shotokan is the only one that uses the Dan/Kyu system?  Shotokan is the only one with a standardized uniform?  

But in the scheme of things it really doesn't matter, nor does it forward the conversation on the OP.  And that is the question, '*is karate a sport*'.  The answer, and it is definitive, karate did not start out as a sport.  There are two methodologies in teaching karate and the sport version lends itself to one methodology but not the other.


----------



## Chris Parker (Aug 17, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Not at all.  Do you think that karate is intended to be used by waiting until someone starts throwing punches at you?
> 
> _“When faced with someone who disrupts the peace or who will do one harm, one is as a warrior in battle, and so it only stands to reason that one should seize the initiative and pre-empt the enemy’s use of violence. Such action in no way goes against the precept of ‘no first attack’ …the expression ‘karate ni sente nashi’ [no first attack in karate] should be properly understood to mean that the karateka must never take a hostile attitude, or be the cause of a violent incident; he or she should always have the virtues of calmness, prudence and humility in dealing with others.”_ *– Kenwa Mabuni*
> 
> ...



Psst… Paul… Paul (pgsmith) was agreeing with you, and saying that drop bear was being deliberately obtuse in order to be argumentative… he was using your quote to show his agreement in your statement, not disagreeing with it…


----------



## Chris Parker (Aug 17, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Karate was a sport invented in the 1800's, and the name caught on, and came to represent all the various kempos.



Yeah… I'm going to second the "huh?" response here… 

Firstly, can you explain how karate was a "sport" invented in the 1800's (both the "sport" aspect, and the "invented in the 1800's" aspect… I'd pay "developed into the modern form largely in the 1800's", but that's a different thing in a number of ways), and secondly, can you define what you mean when you say "all the various kempos" there? Mainly as most systems that use the term, or have identified themselves as "kempo" considerably post-date the 1800's themselves… and could be seen as being a term used to differentiate themselves from the popular "karate" systems of the time.


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 17, 2016)

Is karate a sport?  Yes.  And no.

Is driving a car a sport?  Chopping down trees?  Shooting animals?  Riding on animals?  Running as fast as you can and/or for a long distance?  Jumping?  Swimming?  I can keep going here.

If/when you're competing and preparing to compete, it's a sport.  When you're not, it's not a sport.

Karate is whatever you want it to be, whenever you want it to be it.  Sport, fitness activity, social activity, fighting system, way of life, or whatever else you want. And/or whatever aspect(s) of it you're focusing on at the moment.

As with any other thing that was turned into a sport, people wanted to see who was the best at certain aspects of it.  They made a set of rules they agreed on in an attempt to best simulate the nature of the "activity" (for a lack of a better word) and reduce serious injury to an acceptable level.

Same as the original Olympic events.


----------



## pgsmith (Aug 17, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Not at all.  Do you think that karate is intended to be used by waiting until someone starts throwing punches at you?





Chris Parker said:


> Psst… Paul… Paul (pgsmith) was agreeing with you, and saying that drop bear was being deliberately obtuse in order to be argumentative… he was using your quote to show his agreement in your statement, not disagreeing with it…



  What Chris said.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Aug 17, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> You know 'karate' is a generic term covering a lot of things, so which karate is a sport? Would you say those styles that train for fighting and self defence are sports, or are those ones that compete full contact sport or only those that do points sparring. What about those that never compete are they sports? Saying karate is a sport is like saying cars are racing cars, clearly some are but most certainly aren't.


The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines sport as

1. A contest or game in which people do certain physical activities according to a specific set of rules and compete against each other.

2. Sports in general.

3. A physical activity (such as hunting, fishing, running, swimming, etc.) that is done for enjoyment.

So in particular according to the third definition all styles and all forms of karate are a sport as well as all the other styles of martial arts. You could say all martial arts are sports although from my own experience I would say they are so much more.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 17, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines sport as
> 
> 1. A contest or game in which people do certain physical activities according to a specific set of rules and compete against each other.
> 
> ...



Well, good for the Merriam-Webster. You forgot these definitions though.


› [ C ] old-fashioned informal *a pleasant, positive, generous person who does not complain about things they are asked to do or about games that they lose: *

Oh, Douglas - be a (good) sport and give me a lift to the station.
*See also*
spoilsport
[ C ] Australian English *a friendly way of talking to a man or boy: *

[ as form of address ] Hello sport - how are you?



I find the definition of something by the person who does it to be a more reliable to guide to what that person does.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 17, 2016)

Wadowaza said:


> Yesterday I have posted on my Wado-ryu Karate Blog an article about the inclusion of Karate in the Olympics. The World Karate Federation websites, in its news center, onepnly referred to Karate as a "sport". Nothing’s wrong with the Olympics, to me, but, to I have some problems with the word _sport_ when, generally speaking, they use it to define a martial art and, specifically, to mean Karate as WKF website did. What do you think about?
> 
> PS: If you want to read my article, you are welcome here: The true Olympics of Karate


In my opinion, when it is used in competition, it is a sport. That doesn't make it not a martial art, but fairly defines the training and competition involved. I often refer to "martial sports" to differentiate them from those MA being taught for defensive purposes. The same art can be used for both.


----------



## Steve (Aug 17, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines sport as
> 
> 1. A contest or game in which people do certain physical activities according to a specific set of rules and compete against each other.
> 
> ...





Tez3 said:


> Well, good for the Merriam-Webster. You forgot these definitions though.
> 
> 
> › [ C ] old-fashioned informal *a pleasant, positive, generous person who does not complain about things they are asked to do or about games that they lose: *
> ...


I don't understand what just happened.  Tez3, are you saying that definitions don't matter?  Jesus Christ... don't tell Chris Parker.  He'll totally lose his ****.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 17, 2016)

If it's a sport someone had better tell those who spar like it's not....................


----------



## pgsmith (Aug 17, 2016)

I think people get entirely too caught up in "defining" things. If someone else sees karate as a sport, why in the world would that offend someone who feels that they don't approach it that way? As an example, when people where I work find out I practice martial arts, I often get a pseudo karate stance and a couple of "judo chops" done with the sickly kiai from an old Hai Karate aftershave commercial. There is no reason for me to get offended as they don't know or understand just what it is I do, so I just smile and go on.

  So, when someone calls karate a sport, just smile and wave boys, smile and wave ...


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 17, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> I think people get entirely too caught up in "defining" things. If someone else sees karate as a sport, why in the world would that offend someone who feels that they don't approach it that way? As an example, when people where I work find out I practice martial arts, I often get a pseudo karate stance and a couple of "judo chops" done with the sickly kiai from an old Hai Karate aftershave commercial. There is no reason for me to get offended as they don't know or understand just what it is I do, so I just smile and go on.
> 
> So, when someone calls karate a sport, just smile and wave boys, smile and wave ...



I don't think anyone is upset as such, when non martial do as you say it's easy to shrug however when it's martial artists who fervently believe in the myths told to them by instructors I suppose the need to correct people about what you do comes out. Often too people say 'sport' in a derisory fashion, meaning you do something less worthy because it's a sport. It's probably akin to when people say 'oh she's _just_ a mother' or 'she's_ just_ a housewife' when discussing what work a woman does. 'Karate' oh it's _just _a sport.'


----------



## drop bear (Aug 17, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> Psst… Paul… Paul (pgsmith) was agreeing with you, and saying that drop bear was being deliberately obtuse in order to be argumentative… he was using your quote to show his agreement in your statement, not disagreeing with it…



I call it making a subtle point. Which gets lost on people who don't understand nuance.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 17, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> I think people get entirely too caught up in "defining" things. If someone else sees karate as a sport, why in the world would that offend someone who feels that they don't approach it that way? As an example, when people where I work find out I practice martial arts, I often get a pseudo karate stance and a couple of "judo chops" done with the sickly kiai from an old Hai Karate aftershave commercial. There is no reason for me to get offended as they don't know or understand just what it is I do, so I just smile and go on.
> 
> So, when someone calls karate a sport, just smile and wave boys, smile and wave ...



Yeah that.  Your karate does not define my karate.


----------



## Paul_D (Aug 17, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> What Chris said.


My bad


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 17, 2016)

If you don't "kill" your training partner daily, you are training for "sport" no matter you may like it or not.

There is nothing wrong to play "sport" as long as you can have "fun".

- Sport can give you fun.
- Killing will put you in jail.


----------



## Chris Parker (Aug 18, 2016)

Steve said:


> I don't understand what just happened.  Tez3, are you saying that definitions don't matter?  Jesus Christ... don't tell Chris Parker.  He'll totally lose his ****.



You do get the difference between accurate classification, and contextually dependent differing definitions to single terms, yeah? Additionally, I'd suggest (and Tez, correct this if I'm off base) that no, she's not saying definitions don't matter… rather that they can be dependent on the context as applied by the person using them, and the context in which they are being used. That said, the words still have clear definitions… you can't simply call anything a sport just because you like the word, for instance. But thanks for yet another passive-aggressive dig… 

I'd also point out that a dictionary, despite it's common usages, is not really much more than a basic guide to a simplified range of definitions, rather than an exhaustive, or even definitive one… which can be seen easily when looking up the "definitions" of martial arts. The definition you get is a "lay persons" understanding… people who have a more expert understanding will see major issues with such descriptions… words such as sport are the same.



drop bear said:


> I call it making a subtle point. Which gets lost on people who don't understand nuance.



Then you need to work on being subtle, as there wasn't any subtlety in this… simply a snide dig at explanations of certain actions and methods within karate (the usage of what are commonly seen as blocks as joint locks and other applications instead), showing that you didn't understand it then, and don't now… and there was little nuance to this, or any other comment you've made.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you don't "kill" your training partner daily, you are training for "sport" no matter you may like it or not.
> 
> There is nothing wrong to play "sport" as long as you can have "fun".
> 
> ...



I don't do sport. I haven't killed any training partners yet. There are many systems that don't kill, but aren't sports either… so no.


----------



## Steve (Aug 18, 2016)

It was a joke, Chris.  

If definitions matter, then certainly karate meets the definition of sport.  This is a fact. Photonguy pointed it out and cited his source.  It may not be an organized sport, but it would not be wrong to refer to it as sport. 

Irene was basically saying, "dictionary, schmictionary."


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 18, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> Additionally, I'd suggest (and Tez, correct this if I'm off base) that no, she's not saying definitions don't matter… rather that they can be dependent on the context as applied by the person using them, and the context in which they are being used. That said, the words still have clear definitions… you can't simply call anything a sport just because you like the word, for instance



Spot on Chris. I'd add I think that definitions can also depend on the qualifications of the person defining the 'thing'. I have a friend who is a nuclear scientist, her definitions are much more involved than I can even understand. A discussion that is going on at the moment here is about a nuclear reactor being built here, to us lay people nuclear is just 'nuclear' her definitions are much different, she doesn't even use the word nuclear! It can also depend on what country you are in, I'm sure if you look in an American dictionary and a British dictionary the word 'fanny' has very different ( and potentially embarrassing) meaning.


----------



## Steve (Aug 18, 2016)

For Pete's sake.  You guys flip flop so often. Its hard to keep up.  So then photonguy is not wrong. 

Okay.  How about this?  Is it fair to say that karate is sport even if it is not a sport?


----------



## pgsmith (Aug 18, 2016)

Steve said:


> For Pete's sake.  You guys flip flop so often. Its hard to keep up.  So then photonguy is not wrong.
> 
> Okay.  How about this?  Is it fair to say that karate is sport even if it is not a sport?



  It isn't that people flip-flop, it's that many aren't very interested in attempting to pigeonhole anything with a certain definition. People tend to think of sports as contests with rules and referees. While many karate schools approach it in this manner, many others do not and would get insulted (Tez  ) if you insinuated that they approached their karate this way.

  This is why I stated earlier that attempting to assign a single definition to something such as karate is an exercise in futility.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 18, 2016)

It is fair to say that some people engage in karate as a sport, and that others do not.

Karate can be a sport, or it can be definitely not a sport.  It depends on how it is being done, who is doing it, and for what purpose.  And also how the individual perceives his own practice.

If you say your karate is sport, ok there is not much room to argue with you.  But if you say my karate is sport, you are dead wrong.

What more debate is needed for this?


----------



## drop bear (Aug 18, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> I don't do sport. I haven't killed any training partners yet. There are many systems that don't kill, bu



Probably hobby would be more technically correct.

But the idea that both are simulated is pretty on point.


----------



## Steve (Aug 18, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> It isn't that people flip-flop, it's that many aren't very interested in attempting to pigeonhole anything with a certain definition. People tend to think of sports as contests with rules and referees. While many karate schools approach it in this manner, many others do not and would get insulted (Tez  ) if you insinuated that they approached their karate this way.
> 
> This is why I stated earlier that attempting to assign a single definition to something such as karate is an exercise in futility.


of course this entire thread is subjective. 

That said, surely you must agree that according to the definition from the m-a dictionary shared by photonguy karate clearly meets the criteria of sport, even if it is not a sport with refs and rules.   As I pointed out earlier, whether karate is "sport" is not subjective.  It certainly meets that definition. 

But whether it is A sport is subjective, and certainly depends upon how it is trained.


----------



## pgsmith (Aug 18, 2016)

Steve said:


> of course this entire thread is subjective.


  Yep! Most of life is the same way.



Steve said:


> That said, surely you must agree that according to the definition from the m-a dictionary shared by photonguy karate clearly meets the criteria of sport, even if it is not a sport with refs and rules.   As I pointed out earlier, whether karate is "sport" is not subjective.  It certainly meets that definition.
> 
> But whether it is A sport is subjective, and certainly depends upon how it is trained.



  Sorry, he's still on my ignore list so I didn't know he contributed to this thread or see his definition.  I definitely agree with you about how it is trained though.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 18, 2016)

Karate has tournament -> tournament is sport and has rules -> Karate uses sport format to "test" skill

Karate rules used in the US (back in the 70th) are:

- No facial contact below black belt level (you can kick the head but you can't punch the head).
- No drawing blood from the punch.
- Hammer fist won't give you any point.
- MT type roundhouse kick won't give you any point (this had been changed after 1974).
- No outside ring coaching allowed (some coach used to yield "kill, kill that SOB").
- ...

When your friends visited you, you threw them some Karate gloves and you all had "fun" in the local Karate tournament.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 18, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Karate has tournament -> tournament is sport and has rules -> Karate uses sport format to "test" skill



However, as I said, 'karate' is a generic term for many different styles and sorts of martial art and many styles don't do tournaments or competitions so that statement is a huge generalisation and the conclusion isn't a true one.


----------



## Steve (Aug 18, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> Sorry, he's still on my ignore list so I didn't know he contributed to this thread or see his definition.  I definitely agree with you about how it is trained though.


Ah, well, he said:





> The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines sport as
> 
> 1. A contest or game in which people do certain physical activities according to a specific set of rules and compete against each other.
> 
> ...


Emphasis is mine.  If we consider this definition of sport, then all martial arts qualify.  I think that the term has a negative connotation for some, as it has often been a term used to distinguish some martial arts from others.  In particular, the term is used by some in a derisive way to imply that one art is somehow more dangerous or perhaps serious than another. 

Dictionary.com defines sport as:
noun
1.an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc.   
2.a particular form of this, especially in the out of doors.   
3.sports, (used with a singular verb) such athletic activities collectively:                
Sports is important in my life.
4.diversion; recreation; pleasant pastime.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 18, 2016)

This reminds me of a joke ( the old ones are the best)  a hunter is out with his gun and comes across a nubile young lady in the wood, 'are you game' he asks her. 'I certainly am' she replied so he shot her.


----------



## pgsmith (Aug 18, 2016)

Steve said:


> Ah, well, he said:Emphasis is mine.  If we consider this definition of sport, then all martial arts qualify.  I think that the term has a negative connotation for some, as it has often been a term used to distinguish some martial arts from others.  In particular, the term is used by some in a derisive way to imply that one art is somehow more dangerous or perhaps serious than another.
> 
> Dictionary.com defines sport as:
> noun
> ...


  Ah, I see. Certainly by *those* particular definitions, then just about any physical activity can be labeled a sport. However, that is one of those things that irritates me a lot about lawyers. They are always trying to pin things down absolutely so there is no wiggle room. Most people recognize the fact that life wiggles.


----------



## Steve (Aug 18, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> Ah, I see. Certainly by *those* particular definitions, then just about any physical activity can be labeled a sport. However, that is one of those things that irritates me a lot about lawyers. They are always trying to pin things down absolutely so there is no wiggle room. Most people recognize the fact that life wiggles.


lets be clear.  I'm perfectly open to alternative perspectives.  I posted initially to point out that photonguy made a legit point.   

And you make it sound like the sources of those definitions are obscure.  I think they're pretty common definitions from dictionary.com and the Merriam webster. 

If you use the term sport in a particular way, great.  This does not meAn photonguy is wrong, just as you are not wrong.   As you say, life wiggles.

I wish a few others were as reasonable as you.


----------



## pgsmith (Aug 18, 2016)

Steve said:


> lets be clear.  I'm perfectly open to alternative perspectives.  I posted initially to point out that photonguy made a legit point.
> 
> If you use the term sport in a particular way, great.  This does not meAn photonguy is wrong, just as you are not wrong.   As you say, life wiggles.
> 
> I wish a few others were as reasonable as you.



  I'm not really reasonable, I'm just used to being not quite right!   (yep, take that however you want)


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 18, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Karate has tournament -> tournament is sport and has rules -> Karate uses sport format to "test" skill
> 
> Karate rules used in the US (back in the 70th) are:
> 
> ...


No, I didn't.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Aug 18, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> However, as I said, 'karate' is a generic term for many different styles and sorts of martial art and many styles don't do tournaments or competitions so that statement is a huge generalisation and the conclusion isn't a true one.



We can't even agree on what "karate" is, never mind if it is a sport.
To me karate is a very specific term and not a general term. I would admit that the general population might use it in a general way. Much like where I am from people will say "I need a bandaid I cut my finger" but it's actually a Johnson and Johnson Band-aid brand BANDAGE.
Bandaid has become a common vernacular word in the same way the word karate has.
But to use the "nuclear " example. ..karate for some, like myself is specifically used and pertains to an okinawan fighting art that had three classifications Naha, Tomari and Shuri. But most don't look at it from my nuclear, quantum mechanics kind of micro analysis way.


----------

