# Do you hear that? Nope, nothing to hear.... Who is around?



## JWLuiza (Mar 28, 2010)

Who's TSD around here and still reading....

Any questions you've been afraid to ask? Whatever happened to Lynne....


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## Shawn-San (Mar 28, 2010)

I train in karate that is influenced by TSD and would be more than happy to share what little I know or (more-likey) learn a few things from you.

How long did it take you to acheive your dan rank in TSD?
How much different is traditional karate from TSD?


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## MBuzzy (Mar 28, 2010)

I'm still here!  It has been a while since I've been able to train in TSD though.  I had a stint with Aikido and a short time with TKD, but life has gotten in the way and with the new baby, the most martial arts related things that I've been doing are the occasional self defense seminar and posting here!

BUT, I'm always available for all of your Korean language and culture questions!


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## JWLuiza (Mar 28, 2010)

Shawn-San said:


> I train in karate that is influenced by TSD and would be more than happy to share what little I know or (more-likey) learn a few things from you.
> 
> How long did it take you to acheive your dan rank in TSD?
> How much different is traditional karate from TSD?



Just under five years for chodan.
Depends on the school. My school was very similar to Shotokan training, so in that case very similar. Our school left the main flow of the MDK before it had changed much from the roots TSD started with. I imagine Mi Guk Kwan, Moo Duk Kwan, and others who do Chil Sung and Yuk Ro forms may be vastly different in body mechanics and philosophy than my own.

What school are you with?

Oh and Hi MBuzzy!


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## Shawn-San (Mar 28, 2010)

JWLuiza said:


> I imagine Mi Guk Kwan, Moo Duk Kwan, and others who do Chil Sung and Yuk Ro forms may be vastly different in body mechanics and philosophy than my own.


 
Why is it that some schools stray from teaching these? You would think that sticking with how it has been traditionally taught is the way to go. Then again, karate schools take techniques and forms from all different styles and blend them into one. Just depends on the style and who is teaching it. 



JWLuiza said:


> What school are you with?


Well I used to be involved with NAAMA karate when I was younger so that's where I rejoined. I paid a few visits to local dojos and found that one taught Kenpo, however I would have to start from scratch and learn all new katas. I had thought they weren't around any longer, but I did some searching. I rejoined , which I guess they are changing over to UMA soon. 
I was dissapointed to hear my original sensei had moved out of state for personal reasons and is no longer affiliated with them, but I've grown to like my new sensei. There requirements have changed quite a bit over the years. To be quite honest, I'm also a little dissapointed with the quality of training they provide now. I don't know if it's because my previous sensei was so strict or what, but it seems like there standards have decreased a little. 

What are the requirements, at your school, to test for cho dan rank?


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## JWLuiza (Mar 28, 2010)

Shawn-San said:


> Why is it that some schools stray from teaching these? You would think that sticking with how it has been traditionally taught is the way to go.


Because my school broke before they were part of the curriculum. Classical TSD/SBD did not include these forms. Body mechanics are evolving in the SBD MDK as well. In a biological sense, there is a speciation going on.




Shawn-San said:


> Well I used to be involved with NAAMA karate when I was younger so that's where I rejoined. I paid a few visits to local dojos and found that one taught Kenpo, however I would have to start from scratch and learn all new katas. I had thought they weren't around any longer, but I did some searching. I rejoined , which I guess they are changing over to UMA soon.
> I was dissapointed to hear my original sensei had moved out of state for personal reasons and is no longer affiliated with them, but I've grown to like my new sensei. There requirements have changed quite a bit over the years. To be quite honest, I'm also a little dissapointed with the quality of training they provide now. I don't know if it's because my previous sensei was so strict or what, but it seems like there standards have decreased a little.
> 
> What are the requirements, at your school, to test for cho dan rank?


Strict does not mean bad standards. Good training can be had with or without "strict" instructors.

Requirements include:
Kicho Hyung 1-3
Pyong Ahn 1-5
Kibon Hyung 4 (I think it a Shudokan form)
Naihanchi 1-2
(The above are tested at il gup)
Chinte 
One from the following:
Kanku Dai
Bassai Dai
Shihoken
Chinto
Jion

7 One Step
(self-made, including strikes, take down, and follow up)
7 Jujutsu techniques
(student's choice)
4-Corner
(Randori like event)
3 Fights
1 Co-tester
1 Chodan
1 Board Member

These are the requirements for TKA. I haven't been to one of GM Pak's tests yet.


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## Shawn-San (Mar 28, 2010)

JWLuiza said:


> Strict does not mean bad standards. Good training can be had with or without "strict" instructors.


Yes I understand. I guess I just prefer it. 

I wasn't expecting you to list ALL the requirements. I merely meant the physical aspects and maybe some of the forms. However, thanks for listing them. 
My school now requires a student to have the endurance to run two miles within 18 minutes. Then be able to do 50 pushups, 50 sit-ups, 50 lunges, and 500 jump rope reps each within 2 minutes. Then be able to go through the whole rest of the test. It seems really far off for me at this point, but I've been working on my cardio. One day at a time is all I can do.
We have the same Kicho Hyungs, and Pyung Ahns however, we have a form called Cha Gi Hyung Cho Dan as a 6th gup requirement. At 1st gup the form is Ni Kioso Suro No Kata. Then I beleive for Cho Dan the form is Bassai Dai.
They require us to be profient in all 9th through 1st gup techniques as well as be proficient in a wheel kick, flying reverse kick, and double jump side kick. We also have to complete at least 20 class sessions as an assistant, be well versed in the history and philosophy of karate, and know all of the required terminology. 
To be considered, we also have to be proficient in a weapon of choice, and have acheived a minimum rank of purple belt in Jujitsu. I would like to learn Kenjutsu but they don't currently offer it. Right now we have to choose between bojutsu, sai, nunchaku, kama, or the kali. We also have required one-steps, 12 of them plus our made-up one-steps. 

What is this "3 fights" requirement you speak of?


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## DMcHenry (Mar 28, 2010)

I'm still hanging around reading posts.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 29, 2010)

I'm still around reading posts.  I train in TSD, Okinawan Karate, and Jujutsu right now, as well as a number of things.  I have a pretty good martial arts KenKyuKai out here in Hawaii and am very blessed.


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## OldKarateGuy (Mar 29, 2010)

The subject of dan tests brings up an interesting question. In black belt tests for some organizations - JKA affiliates spring to mind - the biggest pressure is probably mental. The test itself, aside from whatever associated camp or multi-day clinic, is fairly short and not all that physical. However, the basics and forms must be performed flawlessly to pass. Even minor errors can result in a re-test (you know, a fail). A candidate may be asked to only perform 3 kata, but he/she may do each alone, so there is no hiding in a crowd. Likewise, the basics and sparring are done either in very small groups or in a single pair, much like a tournament. Failure rates may approach 30% (although almost everyone passes on second attempts, usually in 6 months). 

On the other hand, there are organizations, as described above and in my personal experience, that have dan tests which are the equivalent to running a marathon. They may be a three hour (or more) physical ordeal, with few or no breaks, of physical workout, basics, forms, sparring, etc, without stop. In such a test, at least in my experience, one may perform a dozen forms without pause, but they are performed in a large group, and minor - or even significant - errors may be excused, or re-do's allowed. Likewise, because of the very physical nature of the test, basic techniques are going to suffer, just from the exhaustion and fatigue. Certainly, there is mental pressure, but I think that anyone who can finish the test generally can expect to pass. I found the pressure to be entirely physical, learning to pace oneself and finding ways to quickly regain aerobic capacity. 

I've done both types of tests, BTW. 

Just wondering what opinions people had about the relative merits of these two differing philosophies of testing karate ability, or if other peoples' experiences match my own.


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## DMcHenry (Mar 29, 2010)

Personally, I'm more interesed in a student's martial arts skill and ability than conditioning - they can join a health club for that.


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## Master K (Mar 29, 2010)

I'm still reading the posts as well.


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## Dana (Mar 29, 2010)

I still stop and visit every once and a while and read these posts.


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## Shawn-San (Mar 29, 2010)

DMcHenry said:


> Personally, I'm more interesed in a student's martial arts skill and ability than conditioning - they can join a health club for that.


 
I agree with you completely. Unfortunetly, I have no say in how testing is done at my organization. I would imagine the general idea is that one would be expected to do the techniques with skill and precision while also having the cardio to do it after an intense cardio/workout session. The problem with that is that IT DOES take away from ones ability to do the techniques with power and precision due to fatigue. Just this past week they failed all 6 out of 6 students who attempted testing for cho dan rank purely based on failing to complete the cardio, and be able to go on with testing.

Some places expect a student to have the cardio to go on even when fatigued. More emphasis is placed on this aspect than I agree with at my org., but there's really nothing I can do about it. Some places put more emphasis on the precision and skill of executed techniques.


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## Dana (Mar 30, 2010)

Personally, I think your average class should focus on technique and enhance cardio.  Therefore, your dan test should reflect both.  Nothing wrong with pushing people into fatigue and make them perform.  However, the key is not to pass into an unrealistic point of diminishing returns.

D


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## GINGERNINJA (Apr 15, 2010)

Hello ,  I still pop in now again have a read of the posts , 
  I have been very busy thinking about some of the things that I have posted in another thread , this was mainly my thoughts on why information on Chuck Norris ( chuck norris and tang soo do thread ) during his service time is a little thin on the ground , if I remember correctly I think that it was MBUZZY that found a few minor flaws in my theory about this ! and I have thought long and very hard about my rebuttal to MBUZZY reply ! 
  Maybe just maybe the covert operations that was the main element in my theory was so covert that nobody apart form those that needed to know knew ! and there fore my theory remains valid !! LOL !! 


Congratulations on the new addition to the family MBUZZY !!


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## MasterPistella (Apr 19, 2010)

I'm still here as well Mr. Luiza. I train in TSD, but not as much as I'd like. No place, no time, too much stuff with kids....Anyway. For cho dan under GM Pak...
All hand, & foot techniques (Korean only)
Hyung sam bu, Passai, Chil sung il ro, nai han ji cho dan
One step sparring 1-18 Plus 6 created by the student
All lower belt self defense
2 breaking techniques jump side kick & reverse punch
Sparring.
120 center punches in horse stance 30 seconds
1000 essay "What TSD Means to me"

Took me almost 5 years to get cho dan under US Fed. They failed my whole group twice in a row for 1st gup & pre test.
3 years avg with GM Pak.

I agree the severe physical part is uncalled for. To me that kind of makes it an elitist thing. I've had students who could barely walk, let alone run.

btw, testing Sunday again. Dang!


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## SahBumNimRush (Apr 21, 2010)

I am here as well, and although my Kwan Jang Nim left the main MDK Dojang prior to the introduction of the Chil Sung and Yuk Rho Hyung sets due to military obligations, we train the Pyung Ahn, Bassai, Naihanchi, Chinto, Kang Song Kun forms (aka the Shotokan form sets).  Sok Ho Kang (my kwan jang nim) is listed on the top part of the MDK family tree in Kang Uk Lee's book, but Kwan Jang Sok Ho Kang began his military career in the early 1950's.  Do any of you know when the Chil Sung and Yuk Rho form sets were originally introduced?  Was this after my Kwan Jang Nim left or did he just elect not to teach us round eyes these forms


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## Master K (Apr 21, 2010)

The Chil Sung Hyungs were taught to the senior MDK practitioners in the USA in Aug 1983. There are those that spout the company line that the Chil Sungs were created in 1952. Others will argue that they were first created just prior to their introduction to the senior MDK practitioners in the USA. This is why you will see books like Kang Uk Lee's state that these hyungs were created in the 1980s, while the Federation books will state 1952.  I don't want to re-start that argument, but it is important to see both sides which is why I stated them.  The reality is that only a handful of people know the truth as to their creation date.

The Yuk Ro Hyungs were introduced to the senior MDK practitioners in the USA in the 1980s as well.


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