# Shotokan beginner



## jonnyofthemadstabbins (Jun 19, 2007)

I attend Cal State Univeristy, Long Beach.  I signed up for the Karate class and after a fun semester joined the Shotokan Karate club.  After several weeks, i'm finding something lacking.  I'm just coming off an injury i received after 4 and half years of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.  The physical aspect of this martial art is on a whole different level.  It seems like I will have to wait a few years to reach brown belt where I will finally be able to take part in full speed/half contact engagements.  In BJJ, the first day I trained, I rolled with a blue belt and was tapped (painfully at times) 5 or 6 times.  It's that physicality and pain i'm missing.  I always thought I picked up on things quicker when I was being motivated by pain (ie. being armbared 3 times in a row on the same arm has a way of teaching a person to protect their arms).

Thoughts?


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## Grenadier (Jun 19, 2007)

Many Karate systems prefer to wait until you have a strong grasp of the fundamentals, and have polished those fundamentals, before you start free sparring with harder contact.  It takes time to develop those fundmentals, as well as to build up a good sense of conditioning. 

While some people may scoff at that notion, I actually agree with the above sentiment.  Someone who has had a good bit of training, will exhibit much better control of their own body, resulting in fewer injuries to their opponents in sparring sessions, but equally, if not more importantly, fewer injuries to their own selves.  

That's actually the norm with most Shotokan schools out there.  I won't kid you; some people will find it boring, since they yearn for full speed sparring right away.  However, if someone sticks with it and becomes ready to take on such things, the moment they start sparring full speed, their performance is quite good, and they didn't suffer injuries along the way, or inflict them.  

In the end, I'd say that regardless of whether a system lets you start out full speed sparring, or makes you wait, the end result can be good either way.  It's just that one has fewer injuries along the way.


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## jonnyofthemadstabbins (Jun 19, 2007)

I see your point, and appreaciate you replying to my post.

I just feel like my learning curve arks when i'm allowed to experiment.  For example:  3 months in to my training I went to a night where our instructor decided to let us use the bags to kick for the first time.  My front kicks went from lazy to far more accurate and forcefull in a matter of minutes.  On top of that, when i got to hold the bag, it only made me yearn for more with every wind that was knocked out of me.  

I can't be the only one who feels this way.  I guess i just miss the quick pay off of BJJ.


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## jks9199 (Jun 19, 2007)

jonnyofthemadstabbins said:


> I see your point, and appreaciate you replying to my post.
> 
> I just feel like my learning curve arks when i'm allowed to experiment.  For example:  3 months in to my training I went to a night where our instructor decided to let us use the bags to kick for the first time.  My front kicks went from lazy to far more accurate and forcefull in a matter of minutes.  On top of that, when i got to hold the bag, it only made me yearn for more with every wind that was knocked out of me.
> 
> I can't be the only one who feels this way.  I guess i just miss the quick pay off of BJJ.


Then, I'd suggest, that perhaps you weren't following directions in the first place.

I can take any joker off the street, throw him up against someone and say "Spar!"  They're not likely to look good, and they almost certainly won't do the techniques I teach.

Or... I can take several months building their skill, teaching them the principles and techniques, and allowing them to combine them in disciplined exercises, and then put them in front of someone and say "Spar!"  The probably still won't look good -- but at least they'll have things to try, and I'll be able to correct them.

You feel that you learn "faster" when you get to experiment.  But, faster isn't always better or more correctly.

But if you want to fight harder & sooner -- there are karate styles, like Kyukushin and Enshin, among others, that will introduce that sooner.  Or there are entirely different styles that'll introduce sparring sooner, as well.


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## Tez3 (Jun 19, 2007)

Well it may not be you! It could be the club and style doesn't suit you. Karate and BJJ are very different, I do both but when I started karate (Wado Ryu) I didn't have to wait three months before using a kick bag, we were using them, pads and bags immediately. I was also taught the basics of sparring straight away. We did the basics of everything, kata, sparring and self defence. When sparring we partnered everyone whatever their belt. I wouldn't say though that BJJ is always taught by pain lol! I learned BJJ the same way I learned karate, basics first.


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## bluemtn (Jun 19, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Well it may not be you! It could be the club and style doesn't suit you. Karate and BJJ are very different, I do both but when I started karate (Wado Ryu) I didn't have to wait three months before using a kick bag, we were using them, pads and bags immediately. I was also taught the basics of sparring straight away. We did the basics of everything, kata, sparring and self defence. When sparring we partnered everyone whatever their belt. I wouldn't say though that BJJ is always taught by pain lol! I learned BJJ the same way I learned karate, basics first.


 

I'm with Tez.  Some schools or styles start you out like that-  leaving certain things out until you get your basics down first.  Usually the concern is someone getting injured.  Even though you're experienced in certain areas, not everyone else is.  Even in something like an arm bar.  Well, maybe not that far, but definitely more advanced grappling tech.'s, like throws, choke holds, etc.  Shotokan is primarily a striking art, as opposed to jujitsu with all the fun stuff it has with what you're used to.  Shotokan is still a very fun and active art, but sometimes it takes a bit longer in certain areas.  Personally, I'd stick with the shotokan class (if not there, elsewhere), but that's just me.  

In the art I'm in, I didn't start learning armbars/ sweeps until I was yellow belt...


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## terryl965 (Jun 19, 2007)

jonnyofthemadstabbins said:


> I attend Cal State Univeristy, Long Beach. I signed up for the Karate class and after a fun semester joined the Shotokan Karate club. After several weeks, i'm finding something lacking. I'm just coming off an injury i received after 4 and half years of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. The physical aspect of this martial art is on a whole different level. It seems like I will have to wait a few years to reach brown belt where I will finally be able to take part in full speed/half contact engagements. In BJJ, the first day I trained, I rolled with a blue belt and was tapped (painfully at times) 5 or 6 times. It's that physicality and pain i'm missing. I always thought I picked up on things quicker when I was being motivated by pain (ie. being armbared 3 times in a row on the same arm has a way of teaching a person to protect their arms).
> 
> Thoughts?


 

Every style and instructor has there particular way of doing things and he's maybe just that he would like a firm foundation of all the basics before letting you go after it.


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## K31 (Jun 19, 2007)

I'd be bored too if all I got to kick was air for three months.


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## Tez3 (Jun 20, 2007)

K31 said:


> I'd be bored too if all I got to kick was air for three months.


 
It does seem a very long time to be just doing line work! I think to learn sparring one must spar, it doesn't have to be full on all out of course! I think too that kicking punching into air all the time is flawed, you really do need to be able to punch and kick bags, pads etc to be able to learn to do it with power and good technique.


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## Carol (Jun 20, 2007)

No bad student, Daniel-san, only bad teacher.  

Many MAists with an MMA/BJJ background tend to be very objective-oriented.

Some MA teachers do not teach objective-oriented students very well.

It may not be the right fit.


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## K31 (Jun 20, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> It does seem a very long time to be just doing line work! I think to learn sparring one must spar, it doesn't have to be full on all out of course! I think too that kicking punching into air all the time is flawed, you really do need to be able to punch and kick bags, pads etc to be able to learn to do it with power and good technique.



I can agree with not sparring right away because you have the potential to hurt others as well as yourself if the instructor does not see that you can practice control beforehand. And, I can agree that you need to do floor drills so that the instructor can evaluate your form which he really can't do as well when you are hitting the bag. But hitting the bag is definitely needed to develop power and confidence as well as it being a lot of fun and a break in the routine.


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## Tez3 (Jun 20, 2007)

I think waiting for a bit before sparring is well and good but not until you are a brown belt! it took me 7 years to get to my last brown ( Wado has three 3rd to 1st kyu) in that time I had been in kumite comps - suitable for the grade I'll add and sparred in my gradings.
Not all instructors like sparring and won't teach much of it, the best thing is possibly to talk to the instructor after having a think about what you want from martial arts? Also have a look at other martial arts classes that are available near you.


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## Shotochem (Jun 20, 2007)

Hi All,

Remember not all schools are the same.  When I was studying Shotokan we sparred within a couple of weeks as the norm.  I don't mean full all out but controlled woking with a higher ranked student.

As the ranks increased so did  the amount of contact and the allowable targets.  

With adults we had our own agreement before each spar session as to the amount of contact we would use.  (...ie.  hey Bob go a little easy on my ribs today I'm a little banged up ect....)

If you feel you are not getting the type of training you are looking for, the smartest thing to do is move on to a place you will.

-Marc-


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## Tez3 (Jun 20, 2007)

Shotochem said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Remember not all schools are the same. When I was studying Shotokan we sparred within a couple of weeks as the norm. I don't mean full all out but controlled woking with a higher ranked student.
> 
> ...


 
Exactly! My present instructors karate style is Shotokan and I've always got the impression it was a very vigorous, energetic style. Most of the top karate fighters in this country come from Shotokan.


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## Grenadier (Jun 20, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I think waiting for a bit before sparring is well and good but not until you are a brown belt!


 
If that's the "standard" Shotokan school, then they'll teach you sparring techniques, in the form of ippon kumite (one step sparring), moving on to sanbon kumite (three step sparring) or gohon kumite (five step), as well as various enhancement to those drills (such as jiyu ippon kumite) that will simulate various aspects of jiyu kumite (free sparring).  This way, they are, arguably, already sparring when they start such work.  

Simply put, it's another way of helping to build a solid foundation for the student.  If someone can do all of the above drills with a good proficiency, then he'll do just fine in jiyu kumite.


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## jonnyofthemadstabbins (Jun 20, 2007)

Wow, lots of good advice here.

Yeah, we have already done the "one time" engagements.  I've also had a chance to do "three time" engagements a few times.  It just feels so contrived.  I'm not asking for all out, no holds bared fighting.  I'm just asking for the slightest dash of realism.  I'm 270 lbs, i can take a jab to the face or a half pulled punch to the abs.

I guess it's just feeling a little bit of grappling withdrawls.  I'm going to give Karate another shot and see how it goes.



> Then, I'd suggest, that perhaps you weren't following directions in the first place.
> 
> I can take any joker off the street, throw him up against someone and say "Spar!" They're not likely to look good, and they almost certainly won't do the techniques I teach.
> 
> ...


 
Certainly my experiance is limited, but I think that experiance on top of training seems to be what most of this is about.  I'm certain I was doing my best to follow the directions of my instructor, but you can't expect someone to learn how to punch and kick correctly by teaching them only theory.  It took a live person with a bag for me to figure out what worked and what didn't.  

With regards to your two cenarios, what's the difference.  If you show them the techniques while they spar, wont both of them have a chance to experiment with what you've tought them?  Wont that be of benift to both?  Certain the one with more training will grasp the usefullness of your techniques quicker, but I'd wager that the first person would learn in 4 weeks what you tought the second guy in 3 months.  Sink or swim right?


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## jks9199 (Jun 20, 2007)

jonnyofthemadstabbins said:


> With regards to your two cenarios, what's the difference. If you show them the techniques while they spar, wont both of them have a chance to experiment with what you've tought them? Wont that be of benift to both? Certain the one with more training will grasp the usefullness of your techniques quicker, but I'd wager that the first person would learn in 4 weeks what you tought the second guy in 3 months. Sink or swim right?



I've seen the results of both approaches.  I suspect this is a question of teaching experience...

I'll take the time to teach someone something to use before I throw them in front of someone with no guidance.   Those one-step, three-step, and other "contrived" scenarios offer you the opportunity to learn and apply the principles with some control, not just trying to squeeze something in on the fly.  And with less chance of ingraining bad habits.  

Do I think waiting till brown belt for any sort of sparring makes sense?  No -- but sometimes, yes.  How long does it take to reach brown belt?  If it's several years, yeah, I'd say you probably ought to be doing various forms of sparring, starting with action/reaction or one-step drills, and moving towards free sparring sooner.  If it's several months... nah, you ought to wait.

One last point -- college martial arts classes or clubs often end up with a unique structure and approach because of the school structure.  Students train hard for 3 to 4 months, take a break, come back, and train for another 3 or 4 months, then take another break...  I know people who's classes are largely made up of college students, and the school schedule is a constant influence and disruption to steady training.  That may be why free sparring is held back in your club.

But -- if you don't like the Shotokan club...  Look around, there're probably others available.  See if you can find something you'll enjoy more.


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## Nomad (Jun 20, 2007)

jonnyofthemadstabbins said:


> Certainly my experiance is limited, but I think that experiance on top of training seems to be what most of this is about. I'm certain I was doing my best to follow the directions of my instructor, but you can't expect someone to learn how to punch and kick correctly by teaching them only theory. It took a live person with a bag for me to figure out what worked and what didn't.


 
What's interesting to me is that "what works" changes pretty significantly as you progress in training.  Part of the point of "contrived" drills is to establish a solid base and teach the principles behind why it works.  To get that (IMO at least), you need to start with a compliant partner until you really understand the movements involved, then you can ramp up the resistance to make sure you can do the same move on someone non-compliant.  

For a beginner (in any system), making something work isn't the real goal, since many of us are big enough to muscle our way through without really learning the technique (at least, until we have to try it on a much larger, noncompliant partner... then it falls apart).  If you learn the principles behind the moves (whether they involve attacking joints, dropping weight, using hips to power the moves, or things much more subtle than the above), the relative size of your opponent loses some of it's relevance... the moves should work on just about anyone if applied correctly.

That said, bag work and sparring definitely have their place too... I just think you may be putting too much emphasis on them based on your previous training.  You are seeing what they do through the eyes of someone who has been taught differently and has a lot of preconceptions.  There is no clear "right" and "wrong" way to teach martial arts.  Approach the class with an open mind (empty teacup) and see if you are learning / gaining things from their approach.  If not, then it probably isn't a great fit and you should look elsewhere.


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## jonnyofthemadstabbins (Jun 21, 2007)

I really can't argue with the wisdom of the past comments.  Thank you for your advice.


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## j.nguyen (Jun 24, 2007)

Nomad said:


> That said, bag work and sparring definitely have their place too... I just think you may be putting too much emphasis on them based on your previous training.
> 
> There is no clear "right" and "wrong" way to teach martial arts.  Approach the class with an open mind (empty teacup) and see if you are learning / gaining things from their approach.  If not, then it probably isn't a great fit and you should look elsewhere.



Couldn't have said it better.

I train in Shotokan in a school club/class as well. I find that it can be a bit taxing punching and kicking air all day long. I find that usually beginners want to spar. But really neglect the basics. It has been my experience that for beginners in sparring situations, the basics are usually the first to go out the window. I find my Shotokan training to be fairly repeptetive. My sensei says that practice does not make perfect, practice makes permanent. When you begin kihon sparring, 5 step and 3 step, and eventually free sparring you'll see why its been structured the way it has. I think honestly if you take the counted, basic 5 or 3 step sparring, it will not feel so "contrived." Sparring seriously is actually very good practice, that is if you actually block the attack and not perform the blocks to the count. 

I think Nomad was right when he said that maybe your BJJ background has affected your view on how things should be done. BJJ and Shotokan are two different kinds of animals, I would naturally assume the approach to be different. 

Besides if your sparring partner is non compliant, my sensei is completely fine with some contact. A good hit will always get your noncompliant partners attention.


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## Can (Jun 24, 2007)

If all you do is kick and punch air, you are not learning the basics in any karate style.  The fundamentals of Shotokan are not a fixed set of kihon that you do in a line over and over again.  They're timing, distance, and the body mechanics needed to develop power.  Punching air will not improve your power.   The people who developed karate knew that, and so do the better instructors today.

I had the misfortune of starting in a Shotokan club that only punched air.  After a couple of years, when I was a brown belt, I moved to a better Shotokan club where basics included actually being able to hit something.  Years of punching air taught me nothing and I was in a position of relearning everything.

I think Shotokan is a great art, and there are fantastic instructors out there; however, if you don't think you are learning anything about timing, power and distance, you might want to look around for a new place to train.


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