# Fate?



## someguy (Jan 8, 2004)

This may have been made or not I'm not sure.  Here's my question.  Is there fate?  Of course lets play nice on this potentially touchy subject.


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## Cruentus (Jan 8, 2004)

I believe that there is a path that we are supposed to follow, and a path that we choose to follow. They are not always one in the same.

In other words, there is free will. But, I think divine intervention can also plays a role. It may have been "fate" as in divine intervention for me to meet my fiancee' and even for us to be together and compatable, but I could choose to break up with her, cheat on her (in which she would break up on me), demonstrate abusive behavior, or overall just screw the entire thing up. So in that sense, I believe in "fate".

I don't believe in "Fate" in the sense that peoples roles or actions in life are "predestined" or already "predetermined."


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## someguy (Jan 12, 2004)

If there is a God who knows all would he not also know your actions before he created everything.  Thus would a person not be fated from before the beginning to do what they do?
Lets see if maybe this will bring debate.


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## Jay Bell (Jan 12, 2004)

I'm not sure how the original question warrented a religious answer.....I thought he asked of fate?


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## Zepp (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by someguy _
> *If there is a God who knows all would he not also know your actions before he created everything.  Thus would a person not be fated from before the beginning to do what they do?
> Lets see if maybe this will bring debate. *



Ahhh, but perhaps what God knows is all of your _possible_ actions before you commit them.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 12, 2004)

I believe you make you own way, given the cards you are given. Obviously it is easier to win the hand when you have four aces and $5,000 to bet with versus a pair of 2's and $5 to bet with.

As to the religious response it may and it may not be a religious issue. In Christianity, there is the concept of free will. The choice to eat the Apple,  etc, ...,  was all about making choices and understanding the effects of your decisions.

In some religions they try to make it out like some people are just destined to be in their role of life, yet in the after life you will have, ..., .

So, it could go both ways.

Just my Opinions:asian:


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## Cruentus (Jan 13, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *I'm not sure how the original question warrented a religious answer.....I thought he asked of fate? *



Belief on Fate and religious beliefs are completely related.


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## OULobo (Jan 13, 2004)

There can be religious conotations to fate, but it's not required. I always remeber the theory that God loves man most because of our free will. It is watching our choice in actions that interests him, it is us choosing the path he laid for us to take that pleases him. I don't believe that there is any destiny or predetermined fate, just choices and probability.


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## someguy (Jan 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Zepp _
> *Ahhh, but perhaps what God knows is all of your possible actions before you commit them. *


IN a pool game you can strike a ball and if you chose to figure it out you could figure out how it would move around and  strike other balls and so forth.  If god applied something like that as he created the universe would he not then be able to know the end result?  If God  created the universe then I figure he would have created the physics and blah to govern it all.


> I'm not sure how the original question warrented a religious answer.....I thought he asked of fate?


If a God created the universe then would it not depend on GOd on if there is fate?


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## Zepp (Jan 15, 2004)

> _Originally posted by someguy _
> *IN a pool game you can strike a ball and if you chose to figure it out you could figure out how it would move around and  strike other balls and so forth.  If god applied something like that as he created the universe would he not then be able to know the end result?  If God  created the universe then I figure he would have created the physics and blah to govern it all.*



That logic only holds if you believe God and the universe to be finite.  If you believe that something infinite actually exists (such as, say an omnipotent, omniscient being), then you have to accept that there is more than one possible outcome for a situation that involves an animate being making a choice.  (Forgive me if you think that logic doesn't apply to the universe.)


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## someguy (Jan 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Zepp _
> *That logic only holds if you believe God and the universe to be finite.  If you believe that something infinite actually exists (such as, say an omnipotent, omniscient being), then you have to accept that there is more than one possible outcome for a situation that involves an animate being making a choice.  (Forgive me if you think that logic doesn't apply to the universe.) *


I don't quite follow you there Zepp.  An all omnisent God would know the end result correct?  
Is there really such a thing as an infinite universe than thee would need to be an infinet god as well unless there is not such thing as God .  If there is no such thing as an infinte God then i don't think there could be Fate.


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## Zepp (Jan 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by someguy _
> *I don't quite follow you there Zepp.  An all omnisent God would know the end result correct?
> Is there really such a thing as an infinite universe than thee would need to be an infinet god as well unless there is not such thing as God .  If there is no such thing as an infinte God then i don't think there could be Fate. *



Let me say try to say it another way then.  An infinite God would know _all_ of the possible end results.  *Fate* means that there is only one possible outcome.

Therefore, just because fate doesn't exist, it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist.

(Just to be extra clear, I'm arguing for the existence of God, and against the existence of fate.)


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## MA-Caver (Jan 23, 2004)

Is there a difference between fate and destiny? 

Lets try this... three men are walking down the street at night and are in a row with one being behind the other and the last behind him.  They pass an alley and a madman steps out after the last guy and shoots a gun:shotgun: ; just a split second before the gun goes off the last guy drops something and quickly bends to pick it up, the second guy hearing the item drop behind him and turns to see the source behind him... the gun goes off and hits the first guy. 
Was that fate or destiny or just plain bad luck? Had the second guy ignored the sound behind him and didn't turn around and was hit would've that been any of the three? What about if the third guy didn't move fast enough to retrieve his item and was hit? 
Even further what if the madman's gun was faulty and blew up in his hand when he pulled the trigger? What would you call that? 

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In the Terminator movies Fate is talked about a lot (in between bullets). No fate except what we make (for ourselves). 
Christianity talks about free will. Other religions talk about Karma. 

Our own belief systems and how we were raised and what we've studied during our lives (school or beyond) and our experiences help us to make that determination for ourselves. 

I honestly don't think there's going to be ONE answer for the original question. Our views will be different across the board. None-the-less the responses have been (and will be) rawther interesting so far. 

:asian:


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## Zepp (Jan 25, 2004)

Personally, I've always believed that we may have a destiny, but we can always do things to change it.  



> Our own belief systems and how we were raised and what we've studied during our lives (school or beyond) and our experiences help us to make that determination for ourselves.



Indeed.


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## markulous (Feb 8, 2004)

What was that short conversation from the matrix?

Morpheus: Do you believe in fate, Neo?
Neo: No.
Morpheus: Why?
Neo: Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.

I without a doubt agree with that.  I believe somewhat like Christians do.  That there is God, and there is heaven, and there is a devil.  Has anyone read Dragonlance books?  Well if not, there are always 2 gods dukin' it out.  A good god and an evil god.  One isn't nessicarily stronger than the other.  That's kind of what I think.  Sometimes the good god is winning sometimes the evil one is winning.  I don't see there being one god, for balance reasons.  Balance is of the utmost importance EVERYWHERE.  If there was only one god that was good it would be highly unbalanced.  Yes, to me there can be too much good.  

There are billions of opportunities, choices, and other things that come into account in our daily life.  But it's up to my lazy *** to get up off the couch and seek them out.


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## someguy (Feb 9, 2004)

SO you kind of follow the whole Manicheism sort of thing.  intresting  
Seeing as your dealing with good and evil as well as fate so will I
Now I am reading some of St. Augistines work.  He said evil exists because of free will.   Man chooses to do evil.  What do you guys think of this idea.  
I personally disagree due to my belife in fate but I wonder what those of you who don't think.


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## OULobo (Feb 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by someguy _
> *SO you kind of follow the whole Manicheism sort of thing.  intresting
> Seeing as your dealing with good and evil as well as fate so will I
> Now I am reading some of St. Augistines work.  He said evil exists because of free will.   Man chooses to do evil.  What do you guys think of this idea.
> I personally disagree due to my belife in fate but I wonder what those of you who don't think. *



As a christian I think that free will is always the key. Free will allow us to do evil, but it also allow us to free our selves from sin. In my opinion free will is the reason why God loves us. Those who choose him do so of their free will.


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## someguy (Apr 22, 2004)

I don't think it would intrest to many peopel but right now I'm working on a phillosophy paper for this topic.  I'm comparing Arminus calvin Augistine and bringing a couple other of the great phillosophers into it.  Its mainly a theological paper but its almost intresting.  Its driving me crazy how much I'm having to read for this.  Calvins institutes of christianity or what ever it is. Arminius's 40 pages on this topic.  There is alot out there.


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## OUMoose (Apr 22, 2004)

Fate is an interesting idea.  As people have mentioned, if there is an all-knowing being who created everything, would he have not known exactly what choices you'd make through your whole life, thereby setting you upon your path?  Or is fate merely probability, and the random outcome of any given choice has an infinite number of possibilities?

A perfect example (IMO) are your friends.  Are they there because that's "god's" way of keeping you on the path, by putting people there who may sway your opinion?  Are they part of your karmic self, always bound to meet in every lifetime?  Are they the random result of being in the right place at the right time with the right set of mental and physical atributes that made you compatible?  Answer:  who knows?

All I do know is I'm sure we'll find out in the end who's right.  Unfortunately you won't be able to tell anyone about it.


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## loki09789 (Apr 23, 2004)

OUMoose said:
			
		

> Fate is an interesting idea.  As people have mentioned, if there is an all-knowing being who created everything, would he have not known exactly what choices you'd make through your whole life, thereby setting you upon your path?  Or is fate merely probability, and the random outcome of any given choice has an infinite number of possibilities?
> 
> A perfect example (IMO) are your friends.  Are they there because that's "god's" way of keeping you on the path, by putting people there who may sway your opinion?  Are they part of your karmic self, always bound to meet in every lifetime?  Are they the random result of being in the right place at the right time with the right set of mental and physical atributes that made you compatible?  Answer:  who knows?
> 
> All I do know is I'm sure we'll find out in the end who's right.  Unfortunately you won't be able to tell anyone about it.



The thing I find interesting is that the atheistic view about god and higher power likes to use the scientific method to justify their stance and at the same time they say it puts them completely in charge of their choices and life with no excuses.....

yet this view ignores that the scientific method is the same philosophical approach that has created the argument of nature vs. nurture, determinism vs free will.....

The universe could be just one big chemical reaction set in motion that could be mapped out mathematically if you knew all the variables and that would be just as fatalistic as the view that there is a GOD who has a grand scheme for us all.

As usual, my POV, is that it is somewhere in combination.  Somethings we can decide on, others are out of our control.


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## OUMoose (Apr 23, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> The thing I find interesting is that the atheistic view about god and higher power likes to use the scientific method to justify their stance and at the same time they say it puts them completely in charge of their choices and life with no excuses.....
> 
> yet this view ignores that the scientific method is the same philosophical approach that has created the argument of nature vs. nurture, determinism vs free will.....
> 
> ...



But, if we map out all the variables leading back to the big bang, and factor in all things are cyclic, including history, then would we not be god, since we know everything?    hmmmmmmmmmm...  

and just to add to the brain twisting, one of my favorite thinker lines from a movie...

"what's really gonna burn your noodle is, would you have still broken it if I hadn't said anything..."

GAH!!!   :asian: 

P.S.  I don't consider myself an Atheist.  I prefer to think more like a Nihilist / Existentialist, which is why I use the symbol for Nihilism as my avatar picture.


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## loki09789 (Apr 23, 2004)

OUMoose said:
			
		

> But, if we map out all the variables leading back to the big bang, and factor in all things are cyclic, including history, then would we not be god, since we know everything?    hmmmmmmmmmm...
> 
> and just to add to the brain twisting, one of my favorite thinker lines from a movie...
> 
> ...



knowledge all the above stuff does not automatically equate to omnipresent or omnipotent, it doesn't even equate to omnicient (subtle but different).  Nice riddle though

Please refresh me on the Nihilistic view.  Existentialism, for my working definition, is a western contruct of the same stuff as Zen Buddhism: Angst is suffering and other parallels...


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## OUMoose (Apr 23, 2004)

Nihilism, as defined by Merriam-Webster is:

"a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless"

That is very harsh IMO, but it is a definition nonetheless.  Most people view it as Rasputin did, in that the world should end for its own good, as it's so far gone nothing can save it.  "Life is meaningless and generally pointless, so what's the use of going on" might be a common phrase in their book.

I don't follow the doctrine as such, as that is a supremely negative point of View.  I do feel that the current system of "training" we undergo is senseless however.  The ideas at their heart are pure (don't hurt people senslessly, don't steal what's not yours, etc), but their method of communication are highly misguided.  I also tend to stay quiet on political issues, as my views on the government are less than positive.

Before I start off on a rant, I'm just going to pause this here, as to not cause another thread hijacking.  :asian: If anyone would like to talk philosophy like this though, please start another thread, or email me (address should be in the profile).


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## Corporal Hicks (Sep 23, 2004)

So, your jumping to the conclusion that the universe and everything that has complete power was caused and created by a god. Acutal infinity is not possible in nature anyway nor is potential infinity as stated by William Craig. 
I dont see why fate has to be controlled by a God at all. Why a God? Why not super beings? Or Aliens? Why do you keep getting yourselves unstuck by assuming that there is a God and that he is automatically to have something to do with fate and the fact that he is all powerful? 
As for free will and God, you can say that suffering is a human cause alone and that God gave us this free will, but if humans were created by God and given free will by God, then all the characteristics of humans would be created by 
 God too, therefore the evil characteristics of humans would have come from God, therefore God is evil (in some way), so much for your perfect God! God is just the explaination for something we do not understand and therefore we created something more mighty than we could understand and got ourselves unstuck!
Regards Though!


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## ed-swckf (Sep 29, 2004)

i'm my god.


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## bignick (Sep 29, 2004)

this has always been an interesting topic to me

there are an infinite number of branches that your life can take, but we only get to explore one...i'm a christian and i strongly believe in free will, which i feel contradicts with the christian belief of a god that has omniscience...if God knows what we are going to do, did we ever really have a choice...if the result is always known could we change our minds...

as a simple example...if i hold up a pen and let go...i know exactly what will happen, it will fall to the ground...every time...there is absolutely no randomness...

i liked someone else's comparison of the universe just being a huge reaction and if we could plot all the variables we would know all the outcomes...on a smaller scale i'd like to use the classic example of randomness in probability, dice 

if i held up a pair of dice and dropped them i wouldn't know what number they were gonna land on...but i would know that they were going to hit ground...and if i could plot enough other things like mass, angle of impact, atmosphere and so forth, i would know exactly what number the dice would land on, every time...a seemingly random event that when all the correct variables have been found can be predicted...after all, it would be pretty simple physics...really indepth, but nothing that you wouldn't learn in a couple of semesters of college physics....

to come back around, do humans have free will, is there fate? if we don't would we ever know...once you've made up your mind and taken an action, it's done...you can never go back and see "what if", you can certainly wonder...and just like the dice, if you know a few variables maybe you could get the broad picture (they'll hit the ground)...but you'll never know exactly how it would have worked...

again, back to christianity, I believe God gave us this gift of free will...who wants to watch a cliff hanger when they already know the ending? Let's just hope we keep putting on a good show and God doesn't get bored and decides to change the channel...

in the end, i think this is a very interesting philosophical debate...but after actually articulating my thoughts on the matter...i think i'd rather enjoy the one path i get than trying to figure out if i could have taken another one or not...


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## Adept (Nov 14, 2004)

Cause and effect good people. Cause and effect. A choice, or a decision in the brain is simply a complex chemical reaction firing in response to certain stimuli. If you re-create the stimuli exactly, you will achieve exactly the same result. To whit: If offered the _SAME_ choice twice, the same decision will be made. We have no more control over our thoughts and our decisions than a ball has control over its decision to fall if dropped.

 An example is a dice roll. One might consider this to be a good way of generating a random number, but the result is hardly random. If one took the time to analyse the angle of the roll, the force, speed, acceleration, rotation, weight, and shape of the dice, incorporated that with the same properties of the surface the dice is to land on, then one could accurately predict the result of the dice.

 It might seem a little outlandish, but think about it. Think about the people you know really well, and think about their reactions to things. Most peoples behaviour is easy to predict, once you know them. 

 The decision making process is not completely random, nor is it free from the laws of chemistry and physics. It is as much a chemical reaction as a reflexive kick is. It is simply parts of the brain working, and is 100% dependant on the stimuli it recieves.


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## Flatlander (Nov 14, 2004)

> A choice, or a decision in the brain is simply a complex chemical reaction firing in response to certain stimuli. If you re-create the stimuli exactly,


 The problem I see here is that this premise disregards the change of reference.  The stimuli may be identical, but the brush is painting on a different canvas.  The stimuli are acting upon different mindstates.  Experiences change the way decisions are made.  Hence the misfortune of retrospect.


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## Adept (Nov 15, 2004)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> The stimuli are acting upon different mindstates.  Experiences change the way decisions are made.


 Absolutely. One can never exactly duplicate the stimuli with todays technology, since once the equation has been run, the machine used to run it is forever, unalterably changed. 

 The point however, is that the result, or the decision, is entirely dependant on how our brains react to our environments. We cannot tell our brain to act or react in a certain way, it just happens. Clear examples are mind-altering drugs. When under the influence of drugs the chemical processes of the brain do not function as they normally would, and behaviour is altered. One cannot snort a kilo of coke and then decide to not be affected by it. One has no choice over how their brain is affected by outside stimuli.


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