# Soke/Head Founders Councils



## LawDog (Jul 17, 2005)

_*I just received a phone call from a very good friend of mine. Unknown to him he had been sponsered for membership into a big name soke council. My friends background and creditals were good enough to gain membrship. My friend then received a phone call from a member of this soke council. My friend was told that because he was friends with certain people his membership was denied. He was told that if he cut all ties with his friends he would be admitted as a member. In so many words my friend declined membeship, to him keeping a friendship was more important than gaining membership in a council that lowers itself to these standards.*_
*In the past the requirements for membership into a soke/headfounders council was based on what a martial artisit did for his personal style, who your friends were never entered into the picture.*
*There seems to be a certain"List" out there. If you are on this list or are friends or associated with people on list list you will never be admitted into any of these councils. This "list" is passed around to the various heads of these soke councils and other big name martial arts organizations.*
*This would explain why many high quality martial artists, the ones who have successful schools, organizations etc. have never been admitted into these councils. This also explains why many who are on these soke councils, the ones who have done little or nothing for the arts, have no school or organizations of there own, managed to get onto these councils. If you are a movie star your in.*
*My personal view on these big named soke/headfounders has really changed. I hope that many in the martial arts community start to look upon these councils with a very questioning eye.*


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## rompida (Jul 17, 2005)

"_My personal view on these big named soke/headfounders has really changed. I hope that many in the martial arts community start to look upon these councils with a very questioning eye._"



I think that most of us already do.


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## Matt Stone (Jul 17, 2005)

Meijin10 said:
			
		

> I just received a phone call from a very good friend of mine. Unknown to him he had been sponsered for membership into a big name soke council.



Yeah, see, it's _never_ known to a person unless they applied for membership themselves...  Typically people are solicited if they have something to offer the organization.  It is rarely the case that a "soke/head council" has anything to offer their members beyond fake rank certificates, "cross ranking" in other styles they've never trained in, and a whole host of other "ethics-light" activities...  Sorry to hear they picked your friend to be their next "honoree."



> My friends background and creditals were good enough to gain membrship.



That really doesn't mean much beyond the existence of a bank account.  Maybe a good reputation that the organization could use to help legitimize its bogus titles, but other than that...  :idunno: 



> My friend then received a phone call from a member of this soke council. My friend was told that because he was friends with certain people his membership was denied.



Two things - 

#1) If it was an organization worth belonging to, he would have known of his application for membership;

#2) He is probably friends with someone that knows about the organization's activities (few, if any, of these "soke councils" are legitimate, mainly because "soke" is a BS title used only by ignorant Westerners trying to sound more important than they are...  I guess folks can't be content with Senior Grand Master, Supreme Grand Master, and other ridiculous titles...), and they don't want their new cash cow - I mean "member" - to get wind of things before they can empty his bank account.

Lucky for your friend that he was cut out of the loop...



> He was told that if he cut all ties with his friends he would be admitted as a member.



I was told that too...  Back in 6th Grade!!!  If I wanted to belong to the "cool clique" I had to ditch X and Y as friends, otherwise the "cool kids" wouldn't think I was cool...  Sheesh!    



> In so many words my friend declined membeship, to him keeping a friendship was more important than gaining membership in a council that lowers itself to these standards.



So-called "soke councils" don't have standards to lower...  If they did, they wouldn't be a) calling themselves "soke;" b) using terms they don't understand as if they understood them; c) "inviting" people to join their organization in unsolicited fashion.



> In the past the requirements for membership into a soke/headfounders council was based on what a martial artisit did for his personal style, who your friends were never entered into the picture.



That's where you've gone terribly, terribly wrong...  These organizations are relatively new; they are not authentically Asian in orientation.  The title is bogus ("soke" isn't used in Japan), the "granting" of "soke-ship," most especially by some third party uninvolved in your particular art, is bogus, and the banding together of "sokes" is bogus as well!  It has only ever been an issue of who was willing to buy such a bogus title, or who was willing to sell their ethical standards to "grant" such a title on some poor ignorant schmuck that actually thought it was an honor!



> This would explain why many high quality martial artists, the ones who have successful schools, organizations etc. have never been admitted into these councils. This also explains why many who are on these soke councils, the ones who have done little or nothing for the arts, have no school or organizations of there own, managed to get onto these councils. If you are a movie star your in.



Again, no.  The reason that people with successful schools and well known reputations don't get involved in these organizations is that they, too, know them for what they are - scams of the lowest rank by unimportant people who have little in the way of personal integrity who are willing to grant each other ranks that don't exist, use the ignorance of the public for personal gain, and who fabricate entire tapestries of lies to enhance their own personal fantasy world of super-martial-arts-guy-ism.



> My personal view on these big named soke/headfounders has really changed. I hope that many in the martial arts community start to look upon these councils with a very questioning eye.



The whole martial arts community, at least online, *does* look upon these organizations with a questioning eye...  I hope you do some more research so you can avoid them for reasons far better than just because they wanted your friend to ditch his other friends...

Peace.
 :asian:


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## arnisador (Jul 17, 2005)

Is there one of these that is _not_ suspect? I can't think of one.


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## Flatlander (Jul 17, 2005)

Do people actually get admitted to these "councils" without their express consent?

 Here's the thing:  I have reviewed a couple of these councils' websites to go over the membership lists, and have found them with legitimate artists as well as exposed frauds.  So, are the legitimate artists unknowingly being associated with here, or are they just misinformed or misled into joining these things?  I found myself honestly confused when I realized that a recently exposed fraud was a member of a council wherein a few of the members were people that had established significant credibility, and were generally respected in the Martial Arts community.


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## Doc (Jul 17, 2005)

Meijin10 said:
			
		

> _*I just received a phone call from a very good friend of mine. Unknown to him he had been sponsered for membership into a big name soke council. My friends background and creditals were good enough to gain membrship. My friend then received a phone call from a member of this soke council. My friend was told that because he was friends with certain people his membership was denied. He was told that if he cut all ties with his friends he would be admitted as a member. In so many words my friend declined membeship, to him keeping a friendship was more important than gaining membership in a council that lowers itself to these standards.*_
> *In the past the requirements for membership into a soke/headfounders council was based on what a martial artisit did for his personal style, who your friends were never entered into the picture.*
> *There seems to be a certain"List" out there. If you are on this list or are friends or associated with people on list list you will never be admitted into any of these councils. This "list" is passed around to the various heads of these soke councils and other big name martial arts organizations.*
> *This would explain why many high quality martial artists, the ones who have successful schools, organizations etc. have never been admitted into these councils. This also explains why many who are on these soke councils, the ones who have done little or nothing for the arts, have no school or organizations of there own, managed to get onto these councils. If you are a movie star your in.*
> *My personal view on these big named soke/headfounders has really changed. I hope that many in the martial arts community start to look upon these councils with a very questioning eye.*


No he missed his cue. That was the part where he was supposed to say, "Well how much will it cost to overlook my friends." I'm sure they could have come to an agreement for the right amount. I've been nominated to a ton of those things. I've always ignored them. Your friend should too as well.


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## arnisador (Jul 17, 2005)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Do people actually get admitted to these "councils" without their express consent?


 Yes. Sometimes they're billed as "honorary members" but either way it's a way for them to try to raise their perceived legitimacy.

 The Eagle Federation had "members" who had died in the 1800s, if memory serves.

 So, it's necessary to ask questions about the members. Ideally, of course, bya sking those "members" themselves.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 17, 2005)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Do people actually get admitted to these "councils" without their express consent?




Yes. Someone can submit your name, pay the fees for what ever they are for, and accept on your behalf, and then you are in. This is done sometimes by well meaning people trying to honor someone they respect.

Peace
 :asian:


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## Seabrook (Jul 18, 2005)

These types of memberships are so political. It's all about who you know, and how much cash you are willing to invest. 

Jamie Seabrook

www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## LawDog (Jul 23, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Is there one of these that is _not_ suspect? I can't think of one.


I agree with you on about %95 of these Soke Headfounder Councils. There are a few that are used for networking, they have no "Hall of Fame' of their own and there is no or a low membership fee etc. :supcool: 
Thanks for your response.


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## Matt Stone (Jul 23, 2005)

Meijin10 said:
			
		

> I agree with you on about %95 of these Soke Headfounder Councils.



*Only* 95% of them?  What about the other 5%?  Please, if you have knowledge of a Soke/Head of System organizations that is not in business solely to stroke the collective egos of their membership, let us all know...

Why would a true Head of a new system (let's assume for a moment that they are more commonly legitimate than they typically are) need the acknowledgement of a group of people he's/she's never met and who likely have no relation to or understanding of the training that individual underwent in the first place?  What can they do for him/her that he/she can't do alone?

These organizations are self-promotion organizations...  They all "recognize" each other's ranks with bogus ranks to make all of their collective resumes look more impressive than they really are.  It is a collective scam, fraud perpetrated on the ignorant and uneducated within the martial arts community, and it really, truly, needs to come to a screeching halt.  The grades/ranks that are legitimate have already been devalued by unscrupulous and unethical teachers by providing substandard instruction to their students and over-ranking them to keep them in the school...  By acknowledging these Soke organizations we cheapen further what cannot afford to be cheapened further...



> There are a few that are used for networking,



*Networking???*  Why?  What "networking" needs to be done?  What benefit does a martial arts instructor reap by "networking" with his/her peers?  Explain your logic to me on this one, please...



> they have no "Hall of Fame' of their own and there is no or a low membership fee etc.



Lacking a "Hall of Fame" doesn't exclude an organization from being a total load of steaming fecal matter, which is what ANY organization founded to "recognize" and help legitimize questionable instructors with questionable training backgrounds absolutely must be...


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## evenflow1121 (Jul 23, 2005)

I will never understand why people are not willing to work hard and achieve a rank the proper way, why it is that you always have people running around with certi"fake"its making all sorts of bogus claims about what they are, you cant lie to yourself, you know its bs. Why not work hard and be content with your humble rank no matter what it may be, atleast there is a sense of pride in true achievement.


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## MJS (Jul 23, 2005)

evenflow1121 said:
			
		

> I will never understand why people are not willing to work hard and achieve a rank the proper way, why it is that you always have people running around with certi"fake"its making all sorts of bogus claims about what they are, you cant lie to yourself, you know its bs. Why not work hard and be content with your humble rank no matter what it may be, atleast there is a sense of pride in true achievement.



I couldn't agree with you more!!  People want to look good in the eyes of others, so they have to rely on some organization or rank that they didn't work hard for, instead of doing it like you said...the proper way!

Mike


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## LawDog (Jul 23, 2005)

Networking.
Many senior ranks are not and probably will never be allowed to join the fraternal order of the "Good Ole Boys" club, (like who cares any how). Because of this situation many seniors are not aware of each other. The networking allows these unknowns to communicate with each other. This usually leads to "real" friendships which develops into a good working relationship. Where there is no commercial relationship, ideas are passed freely between them. Forums do not work well in this way because you don't know who you really are communicating with.
Hall of Fame.
This was mentioned because it is usually a sign of a very commercial Council. Back in 2003 I attended a Hall of Fame in Vegas, promotions were handed out like candy.
I agree with you that the lack of a HoF doesn't mean that the council is ok.  When a council offer's rank certifications, different types of memberships, charge card payment programs etc., then a red flag should go up. I was given a free membership into one, after I got in the other shoe fell. Never again.


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 23, 2005)

evenflow1121 said:
			
		

> I will never understand why people are not willing to work hard and achieve a rank the proper way


America, land of instant gratification.  Our nation is certainly the greatest on earth; our freedoms grant the average citizen the right to buy martial arts rank.  Good.  Let skill be the litmus test for respect in the martial arts community.
May the federal government never create a new department.  I would hate to see the Department of Martial Arts.
Rank tests would have total oversight then.:tank:


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## Matt Stone (Jul 23, 2005)

This is why we must aggressively "police our own," and refuse to cave in to niceties and politeness in the face of fraudulent, irresponsible behavior.

Out the fraud.  Expose him/her.  Shout from the rooftops the discovered information so everyone, senior and novice alike, can hear.  Archive and codify the information for future reference.

Short of "dojo busting," actually going to their school and pounding the snot out of them in front of their students, then giving them an ultimatum to shut down immediately or walk the straight and narrow, this is our only recourse...

Sad where a warrior subculture exists we have to rely upon journalistic techniques to keep our our standards.  Once upon a time people wouldn't have dared to self-promote or buy rank for fear of reprisal from others...   :idunno:  Wonderful world we live in, eh?


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 24, 2005)

All this talk about soke-ship has got my head hurting. I know of someone who was awarded Soke-ship from Meijin10. Would that be considered a "good ole' boys club" pat on the back?"



> Achieving recognition by the Chinese Kenpo Karate Association C.K.K.A in which he eventually inherited and was awarded sokeship by Grandmaster Cunningham


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## Matt Stone (Jul 24, 2005)

#1) I had no idea who Meijin10 was...  So I checked his website and found his bio (my comments will be in red, included in the quoted text):

Al Cunningham - Bio

* Started Martial Arts in 1965. (That was three years before I was even born...  Wow.)

*Black Belt Ranks In:

   Kenpo Karate/T-Jitsu (since this is the style he "created," who awarded him the rank?  Isn't "founder" sufficient?), Taiho-Jitsu, British Taiho-Jutsu (as opposed to "regular" taiho-jutsu?) & Judo.

   Master Trainer in AmeriThai Kickboxing.

  *Rank Certified by the Northern Shaolin Temple. (what do they have to do with kenpo?)

    -Certification was sign by the Senior Monk and given to Al C. free of charge. (probably because he didn't care, knew it didn't mean anything, and figured anyone who needed such certification would be happy with whatever worthless paper token was given to him...  very Zen lesson, really, for those who could understand it for what it was)

  *Memberships and Leadership Positions (why do these need to be listed?) in:

  - Kenpo Karate/T-Jitsu System,

                            - Founder.

  -North American Grandmaster's Council - (now we begin to see where the whole Soke/Headmaster organization issue stems from...)

                            -Admin. President.

  -North East Instr's in Chinese - Kempo/Kenpo Federation- 

                            - C.E.O. & Senior's Board

  -Kempo International -

                            - Senior Advisor.

  -Goshin-Ryu Kempo -

                            - Senior Advisor.

  - South East Karate Instr's - Chinese Kempo/Kenpo Federation-

                            - Senior Advisor.

*Awards: (what do these have to do with anything?)

  -Mass. House of Rep's - Citation For Excellence In Law Enforcement Training.

  -Grandmaster of The Year "2001"- G.M. Ed Browns Hall of Fame.

  -Grandmaster of The Year "2003"- Hawaii Martial Arts Society Hall Of Fame.

(Look at that...  Not one but *two* "grandmaster" hall of fame awards...)

* Military & Law Enforcement Info: (The only thing that _might_ have to do with MA is the baton training...  The rest is just fluff that means absolutely nothing whatsoever as background for a MA teacher.  It speaks to his civic mindedness, but not to his skill as a MAist.)

  - US Army Corp of Engineers 1967 - 1970, (Sergeant E-5).

  - 538th Engineer's - VNam 1969.

  - Law Enforcement - Web Site

      28 years Full Time,

      Motorcycle Officer,

      Tactical Instructor,

      Baton Instructor,

      FBI Certified Firearms Instructor,

      Cruiser Rifle Instructor,

      Machine Gun Instructor,

      Shotgun Instructor,

      Arson Investigator.

* Misc. Info.

  - Books Written:

       Kenpo Karate/Jujitsu Tacticle Theories by Al C.

       Martial Arts Theories by Al C.

       Taiho-Jitsu Tacticle Theories  by Al C.

(I wonder, were any of these published?  By what publishing house, if so?  Anyone read any of these?  Reviews please!  And "tacticle" isn't a word, though "tactic*al*" is...  So is "testicle," which would really make those book titles humorous, don't you think?)

Up to this point the orientation toward this thread mystified me...  I almost wish I hadn't visited "grandmaster"   Cunningham's website.  That title alone is enough to make me shake my head in disgust, but that's just little ol' rebellious me...

All things come clear in time...

Pax.


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## Matt Stone (Jul 24, 2005)

I presume that the esteemed Senior Professor Jan Cunningham is likely also "Mrs. Al."  An excerpt from her bio:



> * Awards:
> 
> - Master Instructor of the Year "2003"- Hawaii Martial Arts Society,
> 
> - Grandmaster of the Year"2005" - United States Martial Artist Association.



Same year Mr. Cunningham was awarded Grandmaster Instructor of the Year, Mrs. Cunningham was awarded Master Instructor of the Year.

If you visit the United States Martial Artist Association website found here, additional information regarding their awards can be discovered...   "Supreme Grand Master (I think the next rank is "god") Renshi" Rankin's webpage is unavailable, but Mrs. "Hanshi Master" Rankin's is up and running.  Reading her bio, you will come across the following:



> World Head of Family Sokeship Council International Hall of Fame Millennium Master Instructor September 2, 2001.



Isn't that the very same "council" who's been lambasted all over the internet for all sorts of questionable activity?



> National Registry of Who's Who 2000.



I remember this...  I was contacted, too, though the individual who contacted me refused to say how he obtained my email address.  Needless to say, I didn't think too highly of the solicitation and opted not to pay the money to belong...



> United Martial Artist Association Distinguished Master of the Year July 11, 1999.



Wait just a minute...  Isn't that the same organization her hubby heads up?   



> United States Martial Artist Association International Martial Artist Hall of Fame Master of the Year July 31, 1999.



Same year, same association her husband heads...  Decide for yourself how valid that award is.    



> Eastern United States Region Karate Olympics Grand Champion 1993.



How many others were competing?  Just because it is called the "regional" this or the "olympic" that doesn't mean much...



> Presidential Sports Award March 1992



Which is an award you submit *yourself* and only requires logging hours in training, none of which are verified by anyone other than the applicant...

I'm starting to feel a little ill...   :erg: 

I'll say this much - there doesn't appear to be a fee attached to the whole "hall of fame" thing.  Doesn't make it any more legitimate, though.

They are also in the same state as Meijin10.  Not that that necessarily implies anything, but it sure is easy access to obtain recognition.  All there needs to be now is "recognized" rank or holding rank in each other's styles for the whole thing to start smelling really bad...

I don't mean to offend, though I know this post will be offensive.  I welcome rebuttals for everything...

Pax.


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## Matt Stone (Jul 24, 2005)

Oops...  Didn't read far enough into Rankin's website...

He also teaches "Uchuno Tai Chi," Iaido, and classes on "Filipino Escrima/Silate/Kali."

If anyone knows who he learned Uchuno Tai Chi from (or whatever it is), what ryu his iaido comes from, and who he studied his FMA from (and whatever silat*e* is), please pony up and share with the rest of the class...



And lastly, his school is in a mini-mall shopping plaza...  Yowza.


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## Brother John (Jul 24, 2005)

I'm not going to get into the whole issue of the proper use of titles, but I do see your point Matt.

You know what I DID like  about Mr. Cunninghams web-site???
The pictures for one. They really show a group that's having a great time and enjoying their art.
I also like the fact that for him it's a family afair. That's a dream of mine.
I alos like the fact that he IS a civic minded person who's spent time protecting and serving. (thanks Mr. Cunningham, for your service...)
I also like that his son followed him in "Protecting and serving" as well as he did into Kenpo.

I really don't think "Dojo-busting" is needed. You not agreeing with his use of titles or what he chose to put on his web-site...... not important really.

Later...
Your Brother
John


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## Matt Stone (Jul 24, 2005)

*John* - 

I'm not "dojo busting."  _Dojo yaburi_, an honored tradition "back east" as well as places closer to home, consists of actually going to someone's school, usually at an opportune time (like in the middle of class), and calling them out onto the mat.  I never once stated, nor will I, that any given individual's physical skills are in question.  Until such time as I see them in person, or better yet get a chance to suck up a punch or two, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Meijin10 brought up the issue of soke-mills.  He said specifically



> I hope that many in the martial arts community start to look upon these councils with a very questioning eye.



I suspect it may very likely be a case of hindsight, and that Meijin10 is now reconsidering his rather lengthy association with such questionable organizations.  That is most certainly what I would hope for.  

His website is a public declaration of his intent and orientation.  As it stands currently, it places him firmly in the camp of those who would "network" with other "masters" in order to further their own titling to one degree or another.

I'm truthfully hoping I'll see him return to this discussion saying that he is removing all mention of such unethical entities from his website and disavowing any further interaction with them.  People make mistakes, and there's no time like the present to start anew.

But sometimes a stick to the head is the only way to see your mistake.  I know, since I get them all the time...  Thanks for yours for showing me that at nearly 1 AM I'm being a little too bored and zealous at another person's expense.  That's what brothers are for, right?

Peace.


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## LawDog (Jul 24, 2005)

Just go to my organizations web site at,

www.nekick.org
click on the membeship info, how much does it cost?:ultracool 
click on the Kenpo Camp link, and the cost there?:supcool: 
click on the charities link, what do I do there?:supcool: 
On my bio link, unlike most, everything is there.
Everthing that my group and I do is there on the web site, we hide nothing.
How man groups that you know are like this?
Thanks Brother John for your response. I am very use to the anti cop, anti vet type of comments.


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## Matt Stone (Jul 24, 2005)

Meijin10 said:
			
		

> Just go to my organizations web site at,
> 
> www.nekick.org
> click on the membeship info, how much does it cost?:ultracool
> ...



I'll grant you that...  There does seem to be full disclosure.  That's a definite plus.



> Everthing that my group and I do is there on the web site, we hide nothing.
> How man groups that you know are like this?



Not enough, surely.



> Thanks Brother John for your response. I am very use to the anti cop, anti vet type of comments.



Not sure what that's intended to imply.  I didn't say anything "anti-cop," nor "anti-vet."  That'd be because my father is a retired police officer, and I'm a 15 year vet of the US Army, with another 5 - 9 to go before retirement.

However, as a fellow Soldier, you and I *both* know that that doesn't really mean much in regards to your role as a martial arts instructor...  I've seen too many other former Soldiers include it as some sort of testament to their credibility, and I've watched too many eager young seekers think it meant something when it didn't.  You saw combat; I'll bow to that.  However, as an Engineer, how much hand to hand combat did you participate in that directly enhanced/influenced your other training?  I'm former Infantry, former Cavalry Scout, and since we carried firearms, we spent more time mastering _those_ weapons than we did mastering the use of our hands and feet...  I suspect it was the same back then, too, especially given the nature of the Combatives program at the time (the same curriculum I was forced to teach as a Drill Sergeant).

It is regrettable that you've been duped by organizations that exist for questionable reasons.  I'm really, truly, sorry for that.  I hope you see the futility of belonging to such groups.  They bring little "honor" to those people they try to "honor."

Accept my earnest apologies for any rough comments I may have made.  I respect and appreciate your service, both civil and military.  Accept also my "thank you" for having done what others would not so they could continue safely in their own pursuits thanks to your sacrifices.

Peace.

 :asian:


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## LawDog (Jul 24, 2005)

Mr Soars,

You and I have met a few times in the past. You are referring to my senior student, P.Scott Weyant. Mr Weyant has been with me for the past 29 years. I simply gave my original senior the ability to run his own system. I do not believe that this is out of line.


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## Brother John (Jul 24, 2005)

Matt-


> I'm not "dojo busting." Dojo yaburi, an honored tradition "back east" as well as places closer to home


Yeah...I've not only heard of it, I've watch an atempted 'yaburi' in my hometown when I was a teenager. One guy walked in and challenged the instructor "for the school"...the instructor laughed and said "OK....but if you win, you ALSO take all of the bills and debt that comes with the school." Then the instructor began TOYING with him like a panther would play with a dead oppossum. It was Sad. The guy left with his tail between his legs in a bad way!!!




> I suspect it may very likely be a case of hindsight, and that Meijin10 is now reconsidering his rather lengthy association with such questionable organizations. That is most certainly what I would hope for.


That May be the case here Matt. OR...maybe he's very satisfied with what this association does for him and his....maybe. In which case....more power too'm. 



> His website is a public declaration of his intent and orientation. As it stands currently, it places him firmly in the camp of those who would "network" with other "masters" in order to further their own titling to one degree or another.


Matt, I know where you are coming from....really. There are definitely those groups that exist for no other reason than mutual back patting and rank inflation...I think from what he said Meijin10 would agree with you too. But: we can't automatically assume this malignant mindset to his group off hand. There is another kind of "Networking" to be done, sharing of ideas, instruction, training concepts, business/marketing knowhow...etc. These kinds of "Networking" are very valuable and worthwhile indeed. I'd rather think the better of people that I'd not yet met nor have given me a good reason to doubt their sincerity...yet. See what I'm saying?



> I'm truthfully hoping I'll see him return to this discussion saying that he is removing all mention of such unethical entities from his website and disavowing any further interaction with them. People make mistakes, and there's no time like the present to start anew.


This goes right back to what I just said: maybe we are assuming a bit too much into their intentions and motivations for having/forming and participating in this association. Maybe it wasn't a 'mistake'. Maybe it's not ever really that central to his school and those schools under him. Maybe. TRUE: These kinds of associations are highly questionable and FOR ME would come with SO many red-flags that I'd not be able to see a hand in front of my face....but that doesn't mean that I automatically can say they are "bad"; just that I'd have to look into it (if EVER) with a high degree of scepticism and caution. MAYBE he did. Seems to be a person with a good head on his shoulders. This is NOT a "Caulkins" type. Nobody untrustworthy or with a bad sense of dignity and honor could hold the positions his professional life has brought along...I'd think.  Seems to me to AT LEAST deserve the benefit of the doubt.


> Thanks for yours for showing me that at nearly 1 AM I'm being a little too bored and zealous at another person's expense. That's what brothers are for, right?


Hahahahaha....
Hey Bro.... anytime you need a 'stick to the head' to help out...
I'm yer huckleberry....
Ha!!

Your Brother
John


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 24, 2005)

Yes sir we have met, many years ago during one of Mr. Parker's visits to New England. However your comment confuses me...



> I simply gave my original senior the ability to run his own system



How can you give someone the _ability_ of running a system you do not teach? I am sure you had some influence simply by the mere fact you taught him much of what he knew. By saying you "_gave him the ability_" is like saying without you he would be incapable of teaching martial arts?!? I have not met your senior student however I am sure he would be very capable of teaching with or without you. If you made this comment as a reference to tradition (asking your instructor to open a dojo, etc..) then the comment makes sense to me.


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## LawDog (Jul 24, 2005)

Just simple respect/tradition between the two of us.


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## Brother John (Jul 25, 2005)

kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> Yes sir we have met, many years ago during one of Mr. Parker's visits to New England. However your comment confuses me...
> 
> How can you give someone the _ability_ of running a system you do not teach? I am sure you had some influence simply by the mere fact you taught him much of what he knew. By saying you "_gave him the ability_" is like saying without you he would be incapable of teaching martial arts?!?


I don't think it's like saying that whatsoever. Seems to me to be nothing more than a respectful nod and a blessing from instructor to student for that student to break off....on good terms....and do his own thing openly. 
What's wrong with that? Maybe 'giving ability' isn't the best way to put it, but from the way he explains it.... sounds good to me.

If you really think about it: that's the way it was when the Tracy's initially broke away from Mr. Parker. Or the way that Gary Swan went about things in his creation of the NCKKA.... with Mr. Parker's blessing.
Something to think about.

Your Brother
John


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 25, 2005)

Brother John, you forgot this part of my post....



> If you made this comment as a reference to tradition (asking your instructor to open a dojo, etc..) then the comment makes sense to me



Besides I was just merely posing the question because his senior student created his own system...a system different from what Meijin10 teaches I would suppose. Giving a blessing I can understand, granting ability is something endowed by our Creator. :asian:


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## James Kovacich (Jul 31, 2005)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> Isn't that the very same "council" who's been lambasted all over the internet for all sorts of questionable activity?


Matt, I googled that name and did not see the "lambasting."
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=World+Head+of+Family+Sokeship+Council+&btnG=Google+Search

Speaking of that org. I know some people their and do not know of anyone there that *"traded their ranks between them."*


As I read this thread from the beginning I sesnsed that Meijin10 was setting the stage slam the sokeships but vaditate his own association. It seems his Grandmaster *IS A MEMBER* *OF SEVERAL OF THE BIG SOKESHIPS.*  :uhyeah: Do the search and he is definately associated to many.


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## lonekimono10 (Jul 31, 2005)

a friend of mine called me about 3 months ago and asked me if i was a part of this "soke council" he gave me the name and i went to his site and there it was my name on his site, i don't know him or what he is all about, but it happens without you knowing it.


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## KENPOJOE (Jul 31, 2005)

Brother John said:
			
		

> I don't think it's like saying that whatsoever. Seems to me to be nothing more than a respectful nod and a blessing from instructor to student for that student to break off....on good terms....and do his own thing openly.
> What's wrong with that? Maybe 'giving ability' isn't the best way to put it, but from the way he explains it.... sounds good to me.
> 
> If you really think about it: that's the way it was when the Tracy's initially broke away from Mr. Parker. Or the way that Gary Swan went about things in his creation of the NCKKA.... with Mr. Parker's blessing.
> ...


 Dear Brother John,
In regards to the Tracys parting with Mr. Parker, I don't believe that it was on "the best of terms" nor was it " a mutual parting"...As Far as the NCKKA is concerned, I thought that historically, it  was Steve Labounty who founded the NCKKA and specifically asked Mr. Parker to create it BEFORE he did it and indeed get Mr. Parker's blessing for it as a "regional subdivision" of the IKKA. But it's easy enough to contact them [Labounty & Swan] and get the "rest of the story".
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## Matt Stone (Aug 1, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> Matt, I googled that name and did not see the "lambasting."



I recall that they were discussed on the now defunct KFO, as well as on E-budo, and I thought they were discussed here about 3 or 4 years ago...

Bottom line, though they say up front they don't charge money for what they do, if you look at their application for membership (you _can_ apply, you don't have to be nominated), they do charge for your application, most of which is non-refundable if you aren't "voted" in...



> Speaking of that org. I know some people their and do not know of anyone there that *"traded their ranks between them."*
> 
> To be honest, anymore, I can't tell them apart without a program!  If it says "soke" or "head of system" or such nonsense that is decreed by outside agencies, I just don't care to know the details.
> 
> ...


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