# Break down the difference between ITF and WTF TKD for me. . .



## SPX (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm going to look at a WTF/Kukkiwon TKD school in just a couple of hours.  Formerly, I've been involved with the ATA and ITF/USTF, but never trained WTF.

I've seen WTF matches and know the very basics about the sparring rules, but that's about it.  So who can give me some thoughts on what would be different training at a WTF school as opposed to what I've done before?  Generally speaking, how are the classes different?  How are the techniques different?  How is the overall experience different?

Thanks.


----------



## Cyriacus (Jan 16, 2012)

You spend all your time jumping and spinning around doing fancy kicks in the WTF, and in the ITF you become a hardened warri... Fine, Ill stop 

Seriously, it differs between two extremes. Sport > Martial Art. Both of them have this problem. Both are great when Theyre taught Properly.
Other than that, some Strikes are different. The ITF Round Kick is different, the ITF Punching is different, the ITF Reverse Turning Kick is different to the KKW WTF Spin Hook Kick, the ITF Sparring is Semicontact, the WTF Sparring is Full Contact, both are about as interesting to watch, thats it.


----------



## ETinCYQX (Jan 16, 2012)

SPX said:


> I'm going to look at a WTF/Kukkiwon TKD school in just a couple of hours.  Formerly, I've been involved with the ATA and ITF/USTF, but never trained WTF.
> 
> I've seen WTF matches and know the very basics about the sparring rules, but that's about it.  So who can give me some thoughts on what would be different training at a WTF school as opposed to what I've done before?  Generally speaking, how are the classes different?  How are the techniques different?  How is the overall experience different?
> 
> Thanks.



I will keep my opinions on ITF TKD to myself (I am quite biased personally for a lot of reasons. KKW TKD is right for me, maybe it is for you too)

The WTF is a sport governing body. They are the governing body recognized by the KKW and Kukkiwon Taekwondo is often referred to as WTF for this reason. I use the two interchangeably myself. Kukkiwon Taekwondo is very progressive and changes often. Not a bad thing in my opinion but it is a different culture. We use Taegeuk forms, which are easy to find online if you want a look at them. 

WTF TKD looks somewhat like ATA, except at full speed and full contact. WTF sport matches are very fast and very much centered on athleticism, these days you will meet black belts who haven't done a form in years and have been a 1st dan for almost a decade because they train to compete. Punches are scored but they are harder to score with. Kicks to the head are worth an extra point, knockdowns are worth an extra point and jumping and spinning kicks are worth an extra point. 

I run a Kukkiwon school and there's an independent ITF-style school in my town. They spar non-contact, which I think is ridiculous, and I have no idea what forms they use.


----------



## SPX (Jan 16, 2012)

Thanks for the responses so far.  

I went and checked out the place, and talked to the instructor for quite a bit.  I liked what I heard and what I saw for the most part.  

For one, the classes are long enough to where you feel like you really get your money's worth.  This has been my gripe about a lot of other schools that have 45 minute or 50 minute classes.  Classes at this place are an hour on paper but the two times I've been there both classes ran overtime past the hour point.  It seems that the instructor has certain material that he wants to cover for the night, and he's going to do that even if that means staying late.  I can see how that would annoy some people, but I personally like it.

Also, the instructor is VERY competition focused, which at this point is what I'm looking for.  ET, you mentioned that there are Kukki black belts who haven't done forms in years.  Well, talking to this guy I got the impression that if he could get away with not teaching the forms then he'd do it.  

I JUST started a very traditional wado-ryu karate class, but I miss the kicks of TKD.  I think this TKD school could offer a curriculum that is a good counter-point/compliment to the solid-base, upper body attacks of wado.  Likewise, the modern environment of the TKD school could provide a good counter-point to the Zen-like atmosphere of the wado school.


----------



## SPX (Jan 16, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> . . . the ITF Punching is different, the ITF Reverse Turning Kick is different to the KKW WTF Spin Hook Kick . . .



Hmm, how so?


----------



## SPX (Jan 16, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> I will keep my opinions on ITF TKD to myself (I am quite biased personally for a lot of reasons. KKW TKD is right for me . . .)



No, hold up.  I genuinely want to hear your reasoning.  Proceed, sir.



ETinCYQX said:


> They spar non-contact, which I think is ridiculous.



I agree.  That sounds pretty silly.  The ITF school I was briefly involved with NEVER sparred.  Even worse.


----------



## Cyriacus (Jan 17, 2012)

SPX said:


> Hmm, how so?


The WTF Round Kick comes straight up, turns over, then Kicks. The ITF Round Kick goes straight up but to the side, then swings around.

The WTF Spin Hook Kick is very Circular. Like a Circular Kicking Arc. Hooking just before or at Contact. The ITF Reverse Turning Kick almost comes straight up, then sweeps across without Hooking until after Contact.

ITF Punching is hard to describe compared to WTF Punching, partly because Ive never seen them side by side. ITF Punching (And I dont mean the Formal Punches. Theyre pretty similar, save the Body Mechanics) can look like Boxing Punching, but... different. WTF Punching looks like Boxing Punching but with a lower guarding hand, and it tends to be used in Defense, as oppose to Offense. The difference isnt huge, but its there.


----------



## Cyriacus (Jan 17, 2012)

SPX said:


> I agree.  That sounds pretty silly.  The ITF school I was briefly involved with NEVER sparred.  Even worse.


And this is the direction that where I was Training started going. It became a not enough, if any In-School Sparring, Sport Themed Dojang. And thats a shame.


----------



## SPX (Jan 17, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> And this is the direction that where I was Training started going. It became a not enough, if any In-School Sparring, Sport Themed Dojang. And thats a shame.



That sounds strange, because I would think that a sport-focused school would spar a lot.  A more traditional school might be more inclined to work patterns and do line drills.

Like I said about the school I went to check out tonight, the instructor is very sport focused and does a ton of sparring, with only enough pattern work that the students can properly move up in rank.


----------



## SPX (Jan 17, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> The WTF Round Kick comes straight up, turns over, then Kicks.


  Sounds like a weird motion. . .  





> The ITF Round Kick goes straight up but to the side, then swings around.


  Yes, just like a karate round kick. . .


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Jan 17, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> I will keep my opinions on ITF TKD to myself (I am quite biased personally for a lot of reasons. KKW TKD is right for me, maybe it is for you too)
> 
> The WTF is a sport governing body. They are the governing body recognized by the KKW and Kukkiwon Taekwondo is often referred to as WTF for this reason. I use the two interchangeably myself. Kukkiwon Taekwondo is very progressive and changes often. Not a bad thing in my opinion but it is a different culture. We use Taegeuk forms, which are easy to find online if you want a look at them.
> 
> ...


You say "Kukkiwon Taekwondo is very progressive and changes often", but mastecole said recently that "The curriculum that the Kukkiwon recommends has for the most part  remained unchanged since the Kukkiwon first adopted it from the Korea  Taekwondo Association, back in 1972, when the Kukkiwon first opened". Im not trying to nit pick, but Im curious as to how its changed, and in what ways its changed if the curriculum is basically unchanged.


----------



## Cyriacus (Jan 17, 2012)

SPX said:


> That sounds strange, because I would think that a sport-focused school would spar a lot.  A more traditional school might be more inclined to work patterns and do line drills.
> 
> Like I said about the school I went to check out tonight, the instructor is very sport focused and does a ton of sparring, with only enough pattern work that the students can properly move up in rank.



Thats why I stopped going there. It made zero sense.
Traditional Schools can come in many forms as well. Most Traditional Schools I know are more about Partner and Pad Drills.



SPX said:


> Sounds like a weird motion. . . Yes, just like a karate round kick. . .


It isnt too weird. It makes sense when You see it.
And yeah, the ITF Round Kick is kinda like a Mawashi Geri, and yet somehow different. I genuinely have no idea how so, Id have to see them directly next to each other.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Jan 17, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> I run a Kukkiwon school and there's an independent ITF-style school in my town. They spar non-contact, which I think is ridiculous, and I have no idea what forms they use.



Saying something is "ITF Style" means little. If they spar "Non - Contact" then the sparring is not ITF Style.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Jan 17, 2012)

SPX said:


> I'm going to look at a WTF/Kukkiwon TKD school in just a couple of hours. Formerly, I've been involved with the ATA and ITF/USTF, but never trained WTF.
> 
> I've seen WTF matches and know the very basics about the sparring rules, but that's about it. So who can give me some thoughts on what would be different training at a WTF school as opposed to what I've done before? Generally speaking, how are the classes different? How are the techniques different? How is the overall experience different?
> 
> Thanks.



"It is like a finger pointing to the moon, focus on the Finger and you will miss all that heavenly Glory" Bruce Lee using a Zen saying. 

Don't focus on the 3 initials of the group.  Also found a guy recently claiming to be ITF and he was so far removed it was fraudulent. 

Within any group training will vary widely from school to school . Observe several classes  at each school (You never know when they may happen to concentrate on something due to an upcoming test or competition and you want get a true flavor by watching one class) 
Choose the school by what / how tey teach and what / how you want to learn as compared to other schools.  You may choose the crummy one, but in free society that is your right.


----------



## Twin Fist (Jan 17, 2012)

too many smart *** cracks comming to my mind......

seriously tho, lots of ways this could be broken down, but earl is right, GO SEE and then you will know


----------



## ETinCYQX (Jan 17, 2012)

SPX said:


> Thanks for the responses so far.
> 
> I went and checked out the place, and talked to the instructor for quite a bit.  I liked what I heard and what I saw for the most part.
> 
> ...



I remember reading somewhere that Steven and Mark Lopez don't know any of their poomsae anymore. Wouldn't surprise me. I know one guy who's heavy into competition and nothing else who has never learned a KKW poomsae. He had his black belt when we as a school integrated into the KKW and never learned a form because he didn't want to grade past 1st Dan. At the athletic level TKD guys train like boxers, kickboxers, whatever and not martial artists, and that's very prevalent in WTF Taekwondo.



Earl Weiss said:


> Saying something is "ITF Style" means little. If they spar "Non - Contact" then the sparring is not ITF Style.



The instructor got his black belt from either the ITF or the ICTF, not 100% sure, and he told me that's the style he teaches but he is not associated and his students tell me they spar non contact. I'd bet insurance for contact sparring would be very expensive for an unassociated school. 



Twin Fist said:


> too many smart *** cracks comming to my mind......
> 
> seriously tho, lots of ways this could be broken down, but earl is right, GO SEE and then you will know



Really, this is it. Go see and try both schools.


----------



## ETinCYQX (Jan 17, 2012)

SPX said:


> No, hold up.  I genuinely want to hear your reasoning.  Proceed, sir.
> 
> I agree.  That sounds pretty silly.  The ITF school I was briefly involved with NEVER sparred.  Even worse.



Nothing deep. I just did not enjoy my ITF experience especially the sparring. Part of it was a local thing but I found ITF politics worse even than the infamous WTF politics as well.



SPX said:


> Sounds like a weird motion. . .    Yes, just like a karate round kick. . .



It's not too weird but it is somewhat difficult to master. The idea is to keep it as linear as possible, near as I can tell. Our spinning hook kick is the same way, pivot 180 degrees then the leg comes up straight and "hooks" across. To a brand new white belt adult it generally takes me three classes to teach it well. I teach the ITF one as well mainly because the ITF one is easier to throw in street clothes.


----------



## SPX (Jan 17, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> seriously tho, lots of ways this could be broken down, but earl is right, GO SEE and then you will know



I actually had already seen one class (or at least part of one) and went and saw another last night.  But those are just snapshots of the total reality.

I was more asking for general truths about the two styles, as well as individual experiences based on years of training under one style or the other.




ETinCYQX said:


> Really, this is it. Go see and try both schools.



I guess if it wasn't clear, I was already involved with an ITF school in the past.  Just wondering, generally speaking, what differences I might be able to expect from a WTF school.


----------



## SPX (Jan 17, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Our spinning hook kick is the same way, pivot 180 degrees then the leg comes up straight and "hooks" across. To a brand new white belt adult it generally takes me three classes to teach it well. I teach the ITF one as well mainly because the ITF one is easier to throw in street clothes.



I saw this on a YouTube video last night.  The WTF-style kick looked quite odd, in my opinion.


----------



## ETinCYQX (Jan 17, 2012)

Much faster. Our techniques in general are more linear in nature


----------



## SPX (Jan 17, 2012)

It seems that there's a power sacrifice, though.  Coming up and then hooking won't be nearly as strong of a move as if you come around and stay circular the whole way.  But maybe that's considered a worthwhile sacrifice for the speed gained?


----------



## Earl Weiss (Jan 17, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> The instructor got his black belt from either the ITF or the ICTF, not 100% sure, and he told me that's the style he teaches but he is not associated and his students tell me they spar non contact. I'd bet insurance for contact sparring would be very expensive for an unassociated school.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Jan 17, 2012)

SPX said:


> It seems that there's a power sacrifice, though.  Coming up and then hooking won't be nearly as strong of a move as if you come around and stay circular the whole way.  But maybe that's considered a worthwhile sacrifice for the speed gained?


I think it has a lot to do with disguising what you are doing. I have a friend who does kukkiwon tkd and he chambers his leg the same for almost every kick so you cant tell what he is going to do. I must admit, when I spar someone doing the 'karate style' roundhouse it is really telegraphed, you can see it coming a mile off.


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Jan 17, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> I remember reading somewhere that Steven and Mark Lopez don't know any of their poomsae anymore. Wouldn't surprise me. I know one guy who's heavy into competition and nothing else who has never learned a KKW poomsae. He had his black belt when we as a school integrated into the KKW and never learned a form because he didn't want to grade past 1st Dan. At the athletic level TKD guys train like boxers, kickboxers, whatever and not martial artists, and that's very prevalent in WTF Taekwondo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If true about mark and steven lopez then that is quite sad. A tkdist does sparring, form, timber breaking and self defence, among many other things. It would be like playing cricket and saying 'I wont bat or bowl, I just wanna field", and then going around calling yourself a 'cricketer'. This is the effect I suppose of something becoming a 'sport'. How can you win a gold medal in TAEKWONDO but not know any of your forms, seems ridiculous from an outsider looking in.


----------



## Twin Fist (Jan 17, 2012)

they are kickboxers, not TKD stylists anymore.

thats why i say WTF style should be called korean kickboxing

it simply isnt TKD


----------



## SPX (Jan 17, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> . . . these days you will meet black belts who  haven't done a form in years and have been a 1st dan for almost a decade  because they train to compete.





ETinCYQX said:


> I know one guy who's heavy into competition and nothing else who has never learned a KKW poomsae. He had his black belt when we as a school integrated into the KKW and never learned a form because he didn't want to grade past 1st Dan.




Is there some advantage to staying at 1st Dan?


----------



## puunui (Jan 17, 2012)

One difference I think is that WTF continues to grow, while the ITF continues to fragment. But other than the obvious fragmentation into separate organizations, are these separate organizations growing? Are there more ITF style practitioners today than say, ten years ago?


----------



## puunui (Jan 17, 2012)

SPX said:


> Is there some advantage to staying at 1st Dan?



The lower the rank, the less overall responsibility. I wanted to stay a 1st Dan way back when because I did not wish to get sucked into teaching responsibilities or open my own school, for example.


----------



## ETinCYQX (Jan 17, 2012)

SPX said:


> Is there some advantage to staying at 1st Dan?



I picked 1st Dan arbitrarily. In the case of my friend he stopped grading at 1st Dan because that allowed him to fight in black belt divisions and he had no use for anything else.


----------



## ETinCYQX (Jan 17, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> If true about mark and steven lopez then that is quite sad. A tkdist does sparring, form, timber breaking and self defence, among many other things. It would be like playing cricket and saying 'I wont bat or bowl, I just wanna field", and then going around calling yourself a 'cricketer'. This is the effect I suppose of something becoming a 'sport'. How can you win a gold medal in TAEKWONDO but not know any of your forms, seems ridiculous from an outsider looking in.



Well the sparring is the entire sport, to be fair (competition poomsae notwithstanding) its just not the entire martial art. There are lots of Judoka who haven't done a kata in 10 years too im
sure. 



Twin Fist said:


> they are kickboxers, not TKD stylists anymore.
> 
> thats why i say WTF style should be called korean kickboxing
> 
> it simply isnt TKD



I'm not actually opposed to this but Judoka do the same thing, competitive Karate fighters do the same thing, BJJ players do it, "it" being neglecting everything outside of the sport ruleset. Why should a Taekwondo fighter be different?


----------



## ETinCYQX (Jan 17, 2012)

SPX said:


> It seems that there's a power sacrifice, though.  Coming up and then hooking won't be nearly as strong of a move as if you come around and stay circular the whole way.  But maybe that's considered a worthwhile sacrifice for the speed gained?



Possibly, I haven't really tested it. Avoiding telegraphing the move is a part of it too. The trick to our roundhouse kick is pivoting the planted foot, much like the side kick. 



Earl Weiss said:


> ETinCYQX said:
> 
> 
> > The instructor got his black belt from either the ITF or the ICTF, not 100% sure, and he told me that's the style he teaches but he is not associated and his students tell me they spar non contact. I'd bet insurance for contact sparring would be very expensive for an unassociated school.
> ...



I have no reason to doubt the man nor any particular reason not to.

Interesting. My insurance is through Allsport and my student's yearly membership fees to the WTF federation here cover it. Also covers us for tournaments, seminars, etc.


----------



## mastercole (Jan 17, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> If true about mark and steven lopez then that is quite sad. A tkdist does sparring, form, timber breaking and self defence, among many other things. It would be like playing cricket and saying 'I wont bat or bowl, I just wanna field", and then going around calling yourself a 'cricketer'. This is the effect I suppose of something becoming a 'sport'. How can you win a gold medal in TAEKWONDO but not know any of your forms, seems ridiculous from an outsider looking in.



I know Jean and Steven Lopez. I spent a month with them in Europe. I observed their change of location training and often had discussions about Taekwondo, martial arts, self defense and other things. Jean along with other Olympic Training Center (OTC) members also visited my school, where they trained with my students. On weekends, I would also take a van load of my black belts to Ann Arbor, Michigan to train with OTC Team Members at Coach Han Won Lee's dojang. My nephew (a black belt student of mine) also went to Sugarland Texas and stay with the Lopez family for a month, going through there daily training regiment. 

From that personal experience, I can tell you that the Lopez family are excellent martial artist, and they are Taekwondoin. It would be a huge mistake to think other wise, and doubt their Taekwondo technical ability.  As for the question about Poomsae, yes, they do know Poomsae.  What is so difficult about learning Poomsae?  I would say they see Poomsae like most elite fighters do, as something for maybe later, or for their students. It was Jean's opinion to me that there is a big disconnect between Poomsae and sparring, and I agree, so there is no need to focus on it when you are trying to win the Olympics. 

That said, can Steven Lopez drop into a front stance and shoot a power straight punch into someone gut and make it count?  Try holding a target for Steven. When he strikes it, with a punch or a kick, you better be ready for some serious shock, traveling from the target into your body.  He and other elite fighters can hit the target so hard, some have actually broken the holders hand or arm as a result of the shock wave.

That elite players do not focus on Poomsae is not ridiculous, its wise.


----------



## SPX (Jan 17, 2012)

puunui said:


> The lower the rank, the less overall responsibility. I wanted to stay a 1st Dan way back when because I did not wish to get sucked into teaching responsibilities or open my own school, for example.



Hmm, I see.  How could you get "sucked in" to that?  I mean, just because you have a certain kind of black belt they can tell you what to do?


----------



## mastercole (Jan 17, 2012)

Kukkiwon Taekwondo has a standard curriculum point for just about everything. Most all of those standards were originally set by the KTA, before the Kukkiwon existed. The KTA was training in a small rented space and needed a central training and technique research center for Taekwondo, so they build the "KTA Central Gymnasium", which was the original name of the Kukkiwon when it opened in 1972.  In 1973, they decided to rename the KTA Central Gymnasium to the "National Technique Center", or, Kukkiwon.  Later, they decided the Korean name would remain Kukkiwon, but the official English name would be "World Taekwondo Headquarters."

In 1973, Taekwondo Team Leaders from a group of nations, including the USA, held a meeting inside the Kukkiwon during the 1st World Taekwondo Championships. At that meeting they voted to form the World Taekwondo Federation for the purpose of sanctioning and regulating international Taekwondo competitions.  

Taekwondoin have to come to grips with the fact that the WTF does not set a standard of technique. They set the standards for competitions. 

That said, the standard Kukkiwon round kick and back hook kick have been the same for the past 40 years, since before the Kukkiwon was created. The technique of those kicks have always had variations from the standard. Over time, those variations have been added to. Keep in mind those variations are not the standard.


----------



## SPX (Jan 18, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Taekwondoin have to come to grips with the fact that the WTF does not set a standard of technique. They set the standards for competitions.



So does that mean there's no official guidelines for doing any particular technique?


----------



## mastercole (Jan 18, 2012)

SPX said:


> So does that mean there's no official guidelines for doing any particular technique?



No. It means the WTF does not set a standard of technique, the Kukkiwon does.  Two very different organizations.


----------



## SPX (Jan 18, 2012)

mastercole said:


> No. It means the WTF does not set a standard of technique, the Kukkiwon does.  Two very different organizations.



I still don't get it. . .


----------



## Cyriacus (Jan 18, 2012)

SPX said:


> I still don't get it. . .


WTF sets up the Sports and has a Flag in the Dojangs.
The KKW is like the Council that makes all the Decisions for the Standards.


----------



## puunui (Jan 18, 2012)

mastercole said:


> The KTA was training in a small rented space and needed a central training and technique research center for Taekwondo, so they build the "KTA Central Gymnasium", which was the original name of the Kukkiwon when it opened in 1972.  In 1973, they decided to rename the KTA Central Gymnasium to the "National Technique Center", or, Kukkiwon.




I know prior to and during the construction of the Kukkiwon, the building was referred to as the "Danhan Taekwondo Hyophwe Choongang Dojang" which as you say was translated into "KTA Central Gymnasium". But I always thought that by the time the building actually opened, the name Kukkiwon had been decided upon. Perhaps it was a mistake to make that assumption. I tried to look up the answer in the old Taekwondo Gyegan magazines (the KTA magazine started by Dr. Un Yong Kim) and the closest I could find was in the March 1973 issue where they refer to the building as "Kukkiwon". Flipping through the old magazines, I found some interesting articles on taekkyon, specifically baekjae taekkyon, as well as an article on GM SON Dukki. I'll try and scan it can email it to you so you can have it translated. Probably some good information in there for your continuing taekkyon research. Also amazing all the people visiting the Kukkiwon back in those days, people like GM NAM Tae Hi, GM SON Duk Sung, etc.


----------



## puunui (Jan 18, 2012)

mastercole said:


> From that personal experience, I can tell you that the Lopez family are excellent martial artist, and they are Taekwondoin. It would be a huge mistake to think other wise, and doubt their Taekwondo technical ability.  As for the question about Poomsae, yes, they do know Poomsae.




I agree with your opinion that the Lopez family are Taekwondoin. Steven especially, which is why I promoted him to Kukkiwon 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Dan and paid the promotion test fee for him too. He got his Kukkiwon 1st Dan from the USTU and I believe USAT gave him a USAT 6th Dan.


----------



## puunui (Jan 18, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> WTF sets up the Sports and has a Flag in the Dojangs.
> The KKW is like the Council that makes all the Decisions for the Standards.



The Kukkiwon has a flag as well, which they will give you for free if you register your school with them through the KMS program.


----------



## Twin Fist (Jan 18, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> I'm not actually opposed to this but Judoka do the same thing, competitive Karate fighters do the same thing, BJJ players do it, "it" being neglecting everything outside of the sport ruleset. Why should a Taekwondo fighter be different?



it shouldnt be limited to TKD, as far as I am concerned, anyone that doesnt learn the ART side isnt a martial artist. I may be a jerk, but i am jerk equally in every direction!!


----------



## SPX (Jan 18, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> WTF sets up the Sports and has a Flag in the Dojangs.
> The KKW is like the Council that makes all the Decisions for the Standards.



Are they actually two separate entities though?  Because it's sounding to me like the Kukkiwon created the WTF and it is just a KKW subcommittee, or something of the like.


----------



## puunui (Jan 18, 2012)

SPX said:


> Are they actually two separate entities though?  Because it's sounding to me like the Kukkiwon created the WTF and it is just a KKW subcommittee, or something of the like.



Yes, they are completely separate entities, with completely separate functions within the world of taekwondo.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 18, 2012)

SPX said:


> Are they actually two separate entities though?  Because it's sounding to me like the Kukkiwon created the WTF and it is just a KKW subcommittee, or something of the like.



They are separate but related entities, and, given how much overlap there is between the two, the relationship might be described as incestuous. Whether than overlap is good or bad is a subject for a different thread, I think.


----------



## ETinCYQX (Jan 18, 2012)

Mastercole and Puunui-

My sincere apologies for my incorrect statement on the Lopez family. I promise I meant no offense and used them as an example of elite competitive Taekwondoin. I only thought I remembered reading a statement from a member here that Steven had remarked he didn't know the Taeguek poomsae. Obviously I was mistaken. I hope no offense was taken.

Ethan


----------



## ETinCYQX (Jan 18, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> it shouldnt be limited to TKD, as far as I am concerned, anyone that doesnt learn the ART side isnt a martial artist. I may be a jerk, but i am jerk equally in every direction!!



Not convinced you're wrong, just looking at parallels.


----------



## mastercole (Jan 18, 2012)

puunui said:


> I know prior to and during the construction of the Kukkiwon, the building was referred to as the "Danhan Taekwondo Hyophwe Choongang Dojang" which as you say was translated into "KTA Central Gymnasium". But I always thought that by the time the building actually opened, the name Kukkiwon had been decided upon. Perhaps it was a mistake to make that assumption. I tried to look up the answer in the old Taekwondo Gyegan magazines (the KTA magazine started by Dr. Un Yong Kim) and the closest I could find was in the March 1973 issue where they refer to the building as "Kukkiwon". Flipping through the old magazines, I found some interesting articles on taekkyon, specifically baekjae taekkyon, as well as an article on GM SON Dukki. I'll try and scan it can email it to you so you can have it translated. Probably some good information in there for your continuing taekkyon research. Also amazing all the people visiting the Kukkiwon back in those days, people like GM NAM Tae Hi, GM SON Duk Sung, etc.



I took a photo of the metal placard they place on the lower corner of the Kukkiwon building when it was completed. It does not say Kukkiwon, I think it calls it the KTA central gym, I'll e-mail it to you.  Please send the Taekkyon scans, hopefully I can have it translated asap.  Thanks!


----------



## mastercole (Jan 18, 2012)

SPX said:


> Are they actually two separate entities though?  Because it's sounding to me like the Kukkiwon created the WTF and it is just a KKW subcommittee, or something of the like.



They are completely separate organizations, with different officers, different functions, and located about 10 miles apart it Seoul.

The Kukkiwon DID NOT create the WTF.   The WTF was created by Team leaders from about 18 different nations, Korea being just one of those nations. Here in the USA, GM Edward Sell, of Florida was one of those 18. He signed the formation document that created the WTF.


----------



## mastercole (Jan 18, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> They are separate but related entities, and, given how much overlap there is between the two, the relationship might be described as incestuous. Whether than overlap is good or bad is a subject for a different thread, I think.



Incorrect. There is no overlap. The only relation is that the WTF choose Kukkiwon's Shihap Kyorugi (which is just one of many types of Kukkiwon Kyorugi) & Kukkiwon Poomsae as the methods of competition for WTF international events.


----------



## puunui (Jan 18, 2012)

mastercole said:


> The WTF was created by Team leaders from about 18 different nations, Korea being just one of those nations. Here in the USA, GM Edward Sell, of Florida was one of those 18. He signed the formation document that created the WTF.




There is a picture of that formation document in the Modern History book. I want to say GM Richard Chun and GM Jack Hwang also signed on behalf of USA. I think GM Kyong Myong LEE signed on behalf of Austria and GM Daiwon Moon on behalf of Mexico.


----------



## puunui (Jan 18, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Incorrect. There is no overlap. The only relation is that the WTF choose Kukkiwon's Shihap Kyorugi (which is just one of many types of Kukkiwon Kyorugi) & Kukkiwon Poomsae as the methods of competition for WTF international events.



Also WTF requires Kukkiwon poom or dan certification for competitors and referees. Not so much for coaches.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 18, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Incorrect. There is no overlap. The only relation is that the WTF choose Kukkiwon's Shihap Kyorugi (which is just one of many types of Kukkiwon Kyorugi) & Kukkiwon Poomsae as the methods of competition for WTF international events.



Really? If you don't see, for one example, Un Yong Kim as president of both the WTF and the Kukkiwon as overlap, then perhaps you've taken too many hook kicks to the head.


----------



## mastercole (Jan 18, 2012)

puunui said:


> There is a picture of that formation document in the Modern History book. I want to say GM Richard Chun and GM Jack Hwang also signed on behalf of USA. I think GM Kyong Myong LEE signed on behalf of Austria and GM Daiwon Moon on behalf of Mexico.



Right, the other American is GM Jack Hwang of Oklahoma.  I don't think GM Chun signed it.


----------



## mastercole (Jan 18, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Really? If you don't see, for one example, Un Yong Kim as president of both the WTF and the Kukkiwon as overlap, then perhaps you've taken too many hook kicks to the head.



I know Dr. Un Yong Kim. I have also meet the current WTF President, Chung Won Choe, and the current Kukkiwon President, GM Won Shik Kang.  I've met a lot of knowledgeable Taekwondo people, and they all disagree with you.

As a matter of fact, Dr. Kim told me personally that Kukkiwon was the center of Taekwondo knowledge, research and learning, and that Kukkiwon sets the standard for what is and what is not Taekwondo. He also told me that the WTF was a separate organization which concerned itself with the successful operations of national and international competitions.  He said that Kukkiwon can not interfere in the business of the WTF, and visa versa because the WTF is governed by the rules and regulations of the IOC, not by the rules and regulations of the Kukkiwon which is governed by the rules and regulations of the Korean Government.

If you disagree with Dr. Kim, please, explain exactly, in detail, as you stated that you have knowledge of how the WTF and Kukkiwon overlap instead of make vague statements.


----------



## mastercole (Jan 18, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I took a photo of the metal placard they place on the lower corner of the Kukkiwon building when it was completed. It does not say Kukkiwon, I think it calls it the KTA central gym, I'll e-mail it to you.  Please send the Taekkyon scans, hopefully I can have it translated asap.  Thanks!



Here is the photo of the foundation placard attached to the Kukkiwon. The center states "Joong ahng do jang" or Central Gymnasium. The bottom line states: Dan Han Taekwondo Hyop Hae Jang Kim Un Yong, or Korea Taekwondo Association President, KIM Un Yong. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/grandmastercole/5837907498/in/pool-1667737@N25


----------



## SPX (Jan 18, 2012)

So I went and took my freebie lesson tonight.  I will be the first to admit that I'm not in top condition and by the end of class I thought I was going to pass out.  It was basically one long conditioning drill, capped off by a sprint-jog-sprint exercise that pretty much made me want to die.  I was told I actually did well . . . that many guys actually throw up on their first day . . . but I felt pretty beat up by the time it was over.  

The real question is whether I want to jump into these waters.  I feel like to REALLY get a grasp of a martial art I'll need to do 3 classes a week in addition to any solo training.  Since I'm doing wado also, that would mean 6 days of training.  

Decisions . . . decisions . . .


----------



## mastercole (Jan 18, 2012)

SPX said:


> So I went and took my freebie lesson tonight.  I will be the first to admit that I'm not in top condition and by the end of class I thought I was going to pass out.  It was basically one long conditioning drill, capped off by a sprint-jog-sprint exercise that pretty much made me want to die.  I was told I actually did well . . . that many guys actually throw up on their first day . . . but I felt pretty beat up by the time it was over.
> 
> The real question is whether I want to jump into these waters.  I feel like to REALLY get a grasp of a martial art I'll need to do 3 classes a week in addition to any solo training.  Since I'm doing wado also, that would mean 6 days of training.
> 
> Decisions . . . decisions . . .



I don't know what your time is like or what your age is, but if you are young and the doctor says you can handle it, 6 days a week is good, and multiple times a day, 6 days a week is very good.  I have students who train 2 hours in the morning, afternoon and evening, 6 days a week.  That is over 36 hours per week. They keep very true to that, though they might miss a 2 hour session here and there due to college homework, some unavoidable responsibility, injury or rare illness. It sounds like this school wants it's students to be conditioned well, in preparation for hard, very hard training.


----------



## SPX (Jan 19, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I don't know what your time is like or what your age is, but if you are young and the doctor says you can handle it, 6 days a week is good.



I'm 30 and can make the time.  I do with the classes weren't almost all at night, though.  I'm the kind of guy that likes to get my business done in the day and be settled in at home by 7:00 PM.

I'm not overly concerned about an inability to do it in the sense that it might be a danger to my health.  I'm not in great condition, but I'm not overweight (I'm 5'6", 150 lbs.) or hindered by any life-threatening disability.  I've also had an on-again, off-again love affair with weight training over the past couple of years, and I don't have a car so I do a lot of walking on most days.  So I am not inactive or overly sedentary, but high-intensity cardio has always been one of the banes of my existence, so I have to say that tonight was the best cardio workout I've had in years.  If it gets any more serious than what went down tonight it will probably take me some time to ramp up to the performance level of everyone else in the class.



mastercole said:


> I have students who train 2 hours in the morning, afternoon and evening, 6 days a week.  That is over 36 hours per week. They keep very true to that, though they might miss a 2 hour session here and there due to college homework, some unavoidable responsibility, injury or rare illness.



Wow, that's like a full-time job.  That's crazy.  No social lives, I presume.



mastercole said:


> It sounds like this school wants it's students to be conditioned well, in preparation for hard, very hard training.



Yeah, that's my impression.  Apparently Saturdays during the spring/summer/fall are much worse.  I was told it starts off with sprints at the track and then back to the dojang for more conditioning and then sparring.


----------



## mastercole (Jan 19, 2012)

SPX said:


> I'm 30 and can make the time.  I do with the classes weren't almost all at night, though.  I'm the kind of guy that likes to get my business done in the day and be settled in at home by 7:00 PM.
> 
> I'm not overly concerned about an inability to do it in the sense that it might be a danger to my health.  I'm not in great condition, but I'm not overweight (I'm 5'6", 150 lbs.) or hindered by any life-threatening disability.  I've also had an on-again, off-again love affair with weight training over the past couple of years, and I don't have a car so I do a lot of walking on most days.  So I am not inactive or overly sedentary, but high-intensity cardio has always been one of the banes of my existence, so I have to say that tonight was the best cardio workout I've had in years.  If it gets any more serious than what went down tonight it will probably take me some time to ramp up to the performance level of everyone else in the class.



I don't state that I endorse this book, but I do know that our students who train this intense make weights a part of their training. They really like this guide. http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-3rd-Mark-Rippetoe/dp/0982522738 

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]





SPX said:


> Wow, that's like a full-time job.  That's crazy.  No social lives, I presume.



They are their own social group and basically do most things together when they are not training or in school. If you can get into a group like that it will transform everything.



SPX said:


> Yeah, that's my impression.  Apparently Saturdays during the spring/summer/fall are much worse.  I was told it starts off with sprints at the track and then back to the dojang for more conditioning and then sparring.



Excellent. Our people do a solid series of track methods. Various timed sprints, timed runs, bleachers stairs, stretching, etc.


----------



## andyjeffries (Jan 19, 2012)

puunui said:


> There is a picture of that formation document in the Modern History book. I want to say GM Richard Chun and GM Jack Hwang also signed on behalf of USA. I think GM Kyong Myong LEE signed on behalf of Austria and GM Daiwon Moon on behalf of Mexico.



Now I'm excited to get home and have a look in the book...  I did have a flick through but it was more of a "buy it now so that later when I can speak Korean I can read it".


----------



## andyjeffries (Jan 19, 2012)

puunui said:


> Also WTF requires Kukkiwon poom or dan certification for competitors and referees. Not so much for coaches.



Do you predict this will always (next 10-20 years) be the case?

I think the launch of the WTF Athlete License is the bell sounding on the requirement for Kukkiwon 1st Dan.  I predict that in the future that the WTF will just say "as long as you have a license (which proves you know the rules and can play to them) then why would you need a qualification in non-WTF sparring competition related activities".  Of course the World Poomsae Championships may change that, but I think for Kyorugi World Championships they may in the future drop Kukkiwon.

Thoughts?


----------



## mastercole (Jan 19, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> Do you predict this will always (next 10-20 years) be the case?
> 
> I think the launch of the WTF Athlete License is the bell sounding on the requirement for Kukkiwon 1st Dan.  I predict that in the future that the WTF will just say "as long as you have a license (which proves you know the rules and can play to them) then why would you need a qualification in non-WTF sparring competition related activities".  Of course the World Poomsae Championships may change that, but I think for Kyorugi World Championships they may in the future drop Kukkiwon.
> 
> Thoughts?



I don't know for sure, but I think one must supply their Kukkiwon Dan number as part of the application requirement for WTF Athlete License.  To me, that means they will lock that in and it will become enforced.  

My experience as a USA Taekwondo Team official who was involved in athlete, coach, trainer, medical and official registration at events under WTF, FISU and the IOC is that the only event that truly required Kukkiwon certification was IOC controlled events, such as World Olympic Qualifiers and the Olympic Games.  All other WTF events, like World Championships on down, have a place to write in the Kukkiwon Dan #, but to my knowledge have never actually denied a team member who did not have one.  I think with the WTF Athlete License, that is going to change and maybe that is already in place with the World Poomsae Championships, I don't know.


----------



## SPX (Jan 19, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I don't state that I endorse this book, but I do know that our students who train this intense make weights a part of their training. They really like this guide. http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-3rd-Mark-Rippetoe/dp/0982522738



I've actually heard of that book, but never read it.  Maybe I should pick it up.





mastercole said:


> They are their own social group and basically do most things together when they are not training or in school. If you can get into a group like that it will transform everything.



What about jobs to pay bills?  Or other interests?  Martial arts are great, but I've always believed a person should be well-rounded.


----------



## SPX (Jan 19, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I don't know for sure, but I think one must supply their Kukkiwon Dan number as part of the application requirement for WTF Athlete License.  To me, that means they will lock that in and it will become enforced.
> 
> My experience as a USA Taekwondo Team official who was involved in athlete, coach, trainer, medical and official registration at events under WTF, FISU and the IOC is that the only event that truly required Kukkiwon certification was IOC controlled events, such as World Olympic Qualifiers and the Olympic Games.  All other WTF events, like World Championships on down, have a place to write in the Kukkiwon Dan #, but to my knowledge have never actually denied a team member who did not have one.  I think with the WTF Athlete License, that is going to change and maybe that is already in place with the World Poomsae Championships, I don't know.



So I'm guessing that WTF TKD tournaments are not "open". . .?


----------



## mastercole (Jan 19, 2012)

SPX said:


> What about jobs to pay bills?  Or other interests?  Martial arts are great, but I've always believed a person should be well-rounded.



Grants, parents/spouse and the dojang takes care of the bills. Cleveland has an extreme variety of culture, and many things to do, music, films, sports, arts, etc. I take them all out often. We also travel around, Canada, USA, Korea, etc. They are, or becoming very well rounded.


----------



## mastercole (Jan 19, 2012)

SPX said:


> So I'm guessing that WTF TKD tournaments are not "open". . .?



Events under the WTF umbrella currently are and have always been open to all martial artist, of every style, they did not need a Kukkiwon Dan number until they reached the Olympic Team Qualifier. A number of martial artist from non-Taekwondo styles have even made it all the way to the Olympics, and placed.  

One must start at the local level, attending tournaments that are organized by the local official WTF Member National Association. If one places there, then they keep moving up, to regional, National, then they must place 1st at a National Team trail. Members of National Teams them go compete with other National Teams at WTF World Championships, or WTF Pam Am, Championships. To become a member of ones National Olympic Team, they must go through a separate Team Trials process. If they place 1st, they become the official Taekwondo Olympic Team member from their nation.

If someone made it to the Olympic level, they would be issued a Kukkiwon certificate, no one was ever denied a Kukkiwon certificate at that level.

In addition, there are many WTF Open events as well, where one is not required to be a part of a national team to compete, however, they should be aware that at open events, there is a good chance they will end up fighting National and Olympic Team members from other nations.


----------



## SPX (Jan 19, 2012)

mastercole said:


> A number of martial artist from non-Taekwondo styles have even made it all the way to the Olympics, and placed.



That's interesting.  Can you name a few off the top of your head?  Was it obvious when watching them that they didn't come from a TKD background?


----------



## puunui (Jan 19, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Really? If you don't see, for one example, Un Yong Kim as president of both the WTF and the Kukkiwon as overlap, then perhaps you've taken too many hook kicks to the head.



Dr. Kim is no longer the president of the Kukkiwon nor the WTF.


----------



## puunui (Jan 19, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> Do you predict this will always (next 10-20 years) be the case?
> 
> I think the launch of the WTF Athlete License is the bell sounding on the requirement for Kukkiwon 1st Dan.  I predict that in the future that the WTF will just say "as long as you have a license (which proves you know the rules and can play to them) then why would you need a qualification in non-WTF sparring competition related activities".  Of course the World Poomsae Championships may change that, but I think for Kyorugi World Championships they may in the future drop Kukkiwon.
> 
> Thoughts?



I don't think the WTF will change its Kukkiwon poom/dan requirement. That WTF Athlete license is more for convenience. With that, they can confirm your information instantly. I hear they will issue those for coaches and referees too, if they haven't done so already. It isn't a credential, it is an ID card.


----------



## puunui (Jan 19, 2012)

SPX said:


> What about jobs to pay bills?  Or other interests?  Martial arts are great, but I've always believed a person should be well-rounded.




To me "well rounded" means jack of all trades. If you really want to reach the pinnacle of something, then well rounded won't get you there. Jonathan Livingston Seagull was not well rounded.


----------



## SPX (Jan 19, 2012)

puunui said:


> To me "well rounded" means jack of all trades. If you really want to reach the pinnacle of something, then well rounded won't get you there. Jonathan Livingston Seagull was not well rounded.



Well if we're talking about martial arts, I'd actually rather be a 7 in both striking and grappling than a 9 in one and a 2 in the other.  But I wasn't really talking about martial arts.  I was talking about just getting to the end of your life and looking back and realizing that you sacrificed a LOT to reach that pinnacle you speak of.  When that time comes, you may or may not feel like it was all worth it in retrospect.


----------



## puunui (Jan 19, 2012)

SPX said:


> Well if we're talking about martial arts, I'd actually rather be a 7 in both striking and grappling than a 9 in one and a 2 in the other.  But I wasn't really talking about martial arts.  I was talking about just getting to the end of your life and looking back and realizing that you sacrificed a LOT to reach that pinnacle you speak of.  When that time comes, you may or may not feel like it was all worth it in retrospect.



Or you could regret not going for it when you had the chance. Life is a series of choices. What one person chooses, another may not. If you are happy with your choices, then that is the only thing that matters, for you.


----------



## mastercole (Jan 19, 2012)

SPX said:


> Well if we're talking about martial arts, I'd actually rather be a 7 in both striking and grappling than a 9 in one and a 2 in the other.  But I wasn't really talking about martial arts.  I was talking about just getting to the end of your life and looking back and realizing that you sacrificed a LOT to reach that pinnacle you speak of.  When that time comes, you may or may not feel like it was all worth it in retrospect.



I'm talking about Taekwondo. The root philosophy in Taekwondo is Zen. Zen is focused, on one thing.  The students how train in this fashion ask for this, they were on fire for it, otherwise they would not be here.  Well rounded in martial arts is something I have never cared about, and never will.  That thinking would be a wast of time for me, personally, and for those that are training here, in this fashion.


----------



## andyjeffries (Jan 20, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> Now I'm excited to get home and have a look in the book...  I did have a flick through but it was more of a "buy it now so that later when I can speak Korean I can read it".



Here's a picture I took of that page.

View attachment $photo.jpg


----------



## Lynch (Aug 11, 2012)

I am a ITF Tae Kwon Do practitioner, here are a couple of things I would like to get across...

1) We do semi-contact sparring in our class quite frequently, and all the time if its in preparation for a competition. Although it is "semi-contact" and control is encouraged, things can get pretty "out of control" during the fights. I just thought I would get this point across to the person who said he knew of an ITF class which doesn't spar at all.

2) A lot of the competitions we hold and I have attended are Open to any martial art.


----------



## Cyriacus (Aug 11, 2012)

Lynch said:


> I am a ITF Tae Kwon Do practitioner, here are a couple of things I would like to get across...
> 
> 1) We do semi-contact sparring in our class quite frequently, and all the time if its in preparation for a competition. Although it is "semi-contact" and control is encouraged, things can get pretty "out of control" during the fights. I just thought I would get this point across to the person who said he knew of an ITF class which doesn't spar at all.
> 
> 2) A lot of the competitions we hold and I have attended are Open to any martial art.


Theres just one thing (Coming from someone who used to do ITF TKD, so You know Im not jabbing at it):
Which ITF is it? Because theres more than one ITF. And then theres, how shall We say, In Independent ITFs.
Is the Headquarters Vienna? North Korea? Canada? Or somewere else?
Theres Good ITF, theres Mediocre ITF, and theres Poor ITF. Like anything else. Its partly which ITF, but mostly, its whos teaching it.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Aug 12, 2012)

Originally Posted by *mastercole*

A number of martial artist from non-Taekwondo styles have even made it all the way to the Olympics, and placed. 


SPX said:


> That's interesting.  Can you name a few off the top of your head?  Was it obvious when watching them that they didn't come from a TKD background?



1988 Arlene Limas Gold Medal - Olympics. I believe she was a Kung Fu stylist. She was an open style tournament competitor and then chose to train for the Olympics.


----------

