# The Slow Lie



## Touch Of Death (Mar 29, 2015)

I keep seeing people post about how going slow helps your technique. It doesn't. The thing that helps about going slow is that other people can see what you are doing, and correct you. That is it!


----------



## Mephisto (Mar 29, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I keep seeing people post about how going slow helps your technique. It doesn't. The thing that helps about going slow is that other people can see what you are doing, and correct you. That is it!


Well this thread is gonna piss a lot of people off, lol. Largely I agree with the op, but with some logical exceptions. A beginner needs a certain amount of compliant and patient training at a slow speed. The same applies for learning new material you can't always go as fast as possible, this is pretty obvious though. However, once a technique is learned the speed and intensity it is trained should constantly increase. 

I've trained in FMA systems where advanced students are still doing slow compliant one steps. I think it's fine for a warmup but when the majority of class is spent training in this manner for advanced students I start to question the training method. 

The closer you get to real time training the more your training simulates reality. If the majority of your training time is slow and compliant, then the majority of your training does not reflect reality. Reality is sloppy and chaotic, it's fine to seek perfection in what you do but don't seek perfection to the point that performance in real time is ignored in favor of some idealized version of a perfect combat reality.


----------



## Buka (Mar 29, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Well this thread is gonna piss a lot of people off, lol.



Around here? Naaaaah.


----------



## yak sao (Mar 29, 2015)

I'm sure this is directed at me as I just posted this last night:

_*To learn how to kick fast, kick slow.
If you always practice fast, it is easy to overlook flaws in your technique, plus movements tend to be kind of jerky and tense.
By practicing slowly you will develop good technique and a smoothness to your movement that will translate into speed.*

*Try this experiment. Kick high and fast, say face height.....now do the exact same kick, only this time s l o w l y.
Much tougher isn't it? The first time you are using muscle plus momentum, while the second time you are training the muscles used in kicking without the aid of momentum.*
_
The person who asked this was obviously a beginner. And my advice to him was the same I would give to any beginner, or anyone learning something new.
And that advice is: "Don't worry about going fast...learn the technique, go slowly, study it, become smooth with it. If you do this, then the movement naturally becomes faster as it becomes more efficient.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Mar 29, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I keep seeing people post about how going slow helps your technique. It doesn't. The thing that helps about going slow is that other people can see what you are doing, and correct you. That is it!


Well, another important benefit is that the person doing the technique can notice the details of what they are doing and refine it. I regularly tell students to slow down a technique they are learning or fixing because when they go fast they have no conscious awareness of the details and keep repeating the same mistakes. The students who refuse to slow down generally take a lot longer to learn the techniques correctly. This is particularly true for jiu-jitsu where there are a lot of small details that have to be internalized.

That isn't to say you should always train slowly or that training slowly is always beneficial. If you practice a technique _too_ slowly you can actually change the body dynamics from what they need to be for actual execution. Even if you do perfect the correct form in slow motion, you do need to practice it full speed as well.


----------



## Shai Hulud (Mar 29, 2015)

Performing a technique in slow-motion will allow you and your instructor to refine and polish it. At best it'll condition you (and your muscles) as to how to "sink" into the technique's form. It won't do much for your combat skills though. To acquire those, you must train at regular, full speed and stop viewing individual techniques in isolation from each other. Find out how each works and what you can do with it, string it all together, then fight at regular speed like the rest of the MA world.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Mar 29, 2015)

I like to practice my sparring in almost slow motion it confuses the heck out of my opponent and gives him more time to hit me 
There are time for both actual slow training and times for fast paced training. It depends on the drill and the level of experience the practitioner has doing the drill.   Sometimes going slow and feeling what your body is doing when trying to force the power through your arms or feet gives you a different sense of what your doing.  
Come to think about it I believe there are a few arts Thatch practice their techniques in slow motion the majority of the time.  So is the OP saying these arts are practicing what they do incorrectly?


----------



## Argus (Mar 29, 2015)

To borrow a quote from the shooting world:

Fast is slow. Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast.

If you're always going for speed, you will never take the time to slow down and refine your movement. When you slow down, you can take the time to find any unnecessary or inefficient movement, and eliminate it. And then, in order to train yourself to apply that movement at speed, you need to rewrite your muscle memory with that refined motion -- first going slow, and gradually building up the speed without compromising accuracy.

And, you must always revisit those movements slowly and carefully, lest other things creep up, or lest you rob yourself of the opportunity for further refinement.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 29, 2015)

Fighting should be like your shirt is catching on fire. In some systems such as the long fist and the Shuai-Chiao (Chinese wrestling), the full speed training is required even for the new students on day one. When you spin and you feel that your eye balls are going to fly out of your eye sockets, you then understand what "speed" means.

Which one is better?

1. Do fast but not 100% correct.
2. Do slow but 100% correct.

I prefer the 1st than the 2nd. IMO, the best product is not the product that has 0 defect and expensive. The best product is the product that has less defect but affordable.

If you

- have speed, even your technique is not perfect, it may still work.
- don't have speed, even your technique is perfect, it may still not work.


----------



## Gnarlie (Mar 29, 2015)

As a long time guitarist who learned to play fast by playing slow, eliminating unwanted inefficient movement and gradually increasing the speed of the metronome over the course of a year or two, I am a big believer in the need for slow.

Starting with fast and never slowing down makes sloppy and inefficient movement that wastes energy and limits the upper speed limit significantly. Starting slow and working progressively faster always eliminating unnecessary motion and staying relaxed leads to being faster than people who don't train that way. 

It takes a special kind of honesty with yourself and patience that most people just don't have.

It's easier just to cover up poor technique with speed or muscle it. But true speed is both relaxed and economical, a mix that can only be developed by starting slow.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 29, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Fighting should be like your shirt is catching on fire



You rip it off in a panicked frenzy and ignore everything else?


----------



## Gnarlie (Mar 29, 2015)

The reason you are able to rip your shirt off quickly is because you have practiced it slowly once a day for your entire life. Your movement has become progressively more economical over that time and when you want to do it quickly you can.

This is not the case with new movements. They have to be drilled in slow working up to fast,    otherwise they end up hectic but tense and slow.


----------



## Danny T (Mar 29, 2015)

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Overwhelm with smoothness.

When first learning new material I find going slow for several reps is a much quicker learning method for most. Then increase the speed. After having good speed slow down again and use it vs ever increasing resistance. Increase the speed as well as the resistance.

I have utilized both methods of slow and fast. Both work depending on what one is learning and how much time is allotted for learning and to what level of skill one is attempting to achieve.


----------



## Tgace (Mar 29, 2015)

You need to go as fast as you can smoothly execute....

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Orange Lightning (Mar 29, 2015)

yak sao said:


> I'm sure this is directed at me as I just posted this last night:
> 
> _*To learn how to kick fast, kick slow.
> If you always practice fast, it is easy to overlook flaws in your technique, plus movements tend to be kind of jerky and tense.
> ...



XD
I was the person everybody. Cracks me up a little though. I'm not a beginner at all. (I'm I that bad at expressing my questions? xD) I was just trying to pick up concepts about training that I haven't thought of or been exposed to. Particularly with kicking, because I feel that I could kick a lot faster. Compared to most other people, I kick decently, but not particularly well. I can kick hard, but always gracefully. Good enough to work, but it could be a lot better. It's more so a problem with me left leg. It can be easy to see coming or I don't get to the kick fast enough. So I was curious about what other people's training methods might be. I actually do this already. But before the thread, it never occurred to be to do it on the bag. I do think it well help me get rid of habits that slow me down. It's not something I would do all the time either. 

It is true though. It can be harder to quick without the momentum you have from lifting your foot off the ground. It's harder, for me at least, to reach face height without it. Lately I've been making a routine out of lifting my leg up and kicking the bag at different heights in different ways just to strengthen the muscles that bring up my leg and hold it up, as well as get better at kicking without so much momentum. I do think this will help me kick with momentum too. I've also been doing bag sessions with kicks only to improve...obvious things.  I would also note that the comment referred to kicks specifically. It doesn't help much with other stuff unless you're working out kinks in technique. 
Also, I think it can be handy to help work out combinations and realize when you're open. "What can I do from here? What's _wrong_ with what I'm doing here?"


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 29, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I keep seeing people post about how going slow helps your technique. It doesn't. The thing that helps about going slow is that other people can see what you are doing, and correct you. That is it!



Why bother posting then. Doubt you needed a lot of correction


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 29, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> XD
> I was the person everybody. Cracks me up a little though. I'm not a beginner at all. (I'm I that bad at expressing my questions? xD) I was just trying to pick up concepts about training that I haven't thought of or been exposed to. Particularly with kicking, because I feel that I could kick a lot faster. Compared to most other people, I kick decently, but not particularly well. I can kick hard, but always gracefully. Good enough to work, but it could be a lot better. It's more so a problem with me left leg. It can be easy to see coming or I don't get to the kick fast enough. So I was curious about what other people's training methods might be. I actually do this already. But before the thread, it never occurred to be to do it on the bag. I do think it well help me get rid of habits that slow me down. It's not something I would do all the time either.
> 
> It is true though. It can be harder to quick without the momentum you have from lifting your foot off the ground. It's harder, for me at least, to reach face height without it. Lately I've been making a routine out of lifting my leg up and kicking the bag at different heights in different ways just to strengthen the muscles that bring up my leg and hold it up, as well as get better at kicking without so much momentum. I do think this will help me kick with momentum too. I've also been doing bag sessions with kicks only to improve...obvious things.  I would also note that the comment referred to kicks specifically. It doesn't help much with other stuff unless you're working out kinks in technique.
> Also, I think it can be handy to help work out combinations and realize when you're open. "What can I do from here? What's _wrong_ with what I'm doing here?"




Nothing at all. If you are after a critique, try members in motion  Everybody is open at some point. You cannot mitigate that, you just learn to take advantage


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 29, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Why bother posting then. Doubt you needed a lot of correction


If you want to kick fast, kick with the knee first, then your foot. If you don't do that and just wait for slowness to teach you, you will have a long wait. LOL


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 29, 2015)

Try it...slow at, first.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Mar 29, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Nothing at all. If you are after a critique, try members in motion  Everybody is open at some point. You cannot mitigate that, you just learn to take advantage


I might. One of these days. I doubt it will be anytime soon though. I'm a little out of practice. A hard winter and college life have slowed me down quite a bit.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 29, 2015)

It depend how slow you mean. A good teacher with quickly see what you are doing wrong, correct this and maybe another half a dozen problems. As they say, 'Start wrong, finish wrong. Technique really is not about speed anyway. Its not how fast you move, it's 'when' you move that decides an outcome. As you mature young people who have the speed appear to be buzzing mosquitoes.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 29, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> It depend how slow you mean. A good teacher with quickly see what you are doing wrong, correct this and maybe another half a dozen problems. As they say, 'Start wrong, finish wrong. Technique really is not about speed anyway. Its not how fast you move, it's 'when' you move that decides an outcome. As you mature young people who have the speed appear to be buzzing mosquitoes.


I disagree. Proper path of motion, and an understanding of when, and where your hand needs to be, "When", will decide the outcome.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 29, 2015)

LOL. You need to know where the other guys hands are not yours. Then again eyes are the giveaway not the body. Everybody has to look even for split second before they move. The outcome? I usually know what the other guy is going to do before he does.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 29, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> LOL. You need to know where the other guys hands are not yours. Then again eyes are the giveaway not the body. Everybody has to look even for split second before they move. The outcome? I usually know what the other guy is going to do before he does.


Are you being serious? We don't need to know where are hands are? What martial art do you study?


----------



## Danny T (Mar 29, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> LOL. You need to know where the other guys hands are not yours. Then again eyes are the giveaway not the body. Everybody has to look even for split second before they move. The outcome? I usually know what the other guy is going to do before he does.


Nope!
I have 3 blind students. They don't do any looking at all. Theirs is 'all' audio and tactile.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 29, 2015)

So let us say a guy throws a punch at us. We went to block it, but we forgot that our hands were in our back pockets.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 29, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Are you being serious? We don't need to know where are hands are? What martial art do you study?


Started Karate 50 years ago. Mostly sword arts (koryu) now now. I trained my students to win All Japan championship twice. Spent nearly 40 years opposite Uni students (Mostly Yondan) fighting at least 5 days a week. also Kidotai (Japanese Riot squad). A weapon is merely an extension of ones body (at least it should be). Fighter are just that. They could do it before they did MA. One can still do MA as an art form without fighting but we are all on a path for perfection. A path that we will never reach


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 29, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Nope!
> I have 3 blind students. They don't do any looking at all. Theirs is 'all' audio and tactile.


It was a generalization. But wonderful for them to be able to do an activity like that. I doubt if we would all last very long in competition blindfolded


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 29, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> Started Karate 50 years ago. Mostly sword arts (koryu) now now. I trained my students to win All Japan championship twice. Spent nearly 40 years opposite Uni students (Mostly Yondan) fighting at least 5 days a week. also Kidotai (Japanese Riot squad). A weapon is merely an extension of ones body (at least it should be). Fighter are just that. They could do it before they did MA. One can still do MA as an art form without fighting but we are all on a path for perfection. A path that we will never reach


Most arts have the different beneficial hand positions imbedded in the technique, but when that fails, we say, "Hey keep your guard up!".


----------



## drop bear (Mar 29, 2015)

Everybody has a top speed. So you get there you stop. To get faster you have to make use of efficiency. And to find the most efficient motion involves slowing down.


----------



## Steve (Mar 29, 2015)

I only have one speed, and it ain't fast.  Fortunately, Good technique, muscle memory and experience get me through or I'd be helpless.  

Speed, like strength, is a distinct advantage, but can be overcome.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 29, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Everybody has a top speed. So you get there you stop. To get faster you have to make use of efficiency. And to find the most efficient motion involves slowing down.


For a bit.


----------



## geezer (Mar 29, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> It was a generalization. But wonderful for them to be able to do an activity like that. I doubt if we would all last very long in competition blindfolded



Depends on the competition. Not too many blind marksmen, archers or even swordsmen, I'll grant you that. But grapplers? Try doing a google search on blind wrestlers. There are quite a few.

In Wing Chun, I've had the opportunity to work with several visually impaired individuals. Once you make contact, you can strike or grapple very effectively if you've been trained.

As far as the OP goes, of course some things can be improved by slow training. T.O.D. said:



Touch Of Death said:


> ...The thing that helps about going slow is that *other people can see what you are doing,* and correct you. That is it!



OK, then go practice slowly_ in front of a mirror! _Then maybe you can spot some of your own mistakes. Works for me.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 29, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Most arts have the different beneficial hand positions imbedded in the technique, but when that fails, we say, "Hey keep your guard up!".



Have you ever fought anyone who uses a hidden technique? Hands are behind them. We have to understand Ma-ai. It's the distance/timing/interval between two people. Precisely when is the other person is inside ones own ma-ai. Also kokoro ma-ai. this is the mental interval. Momentary lapses in this may also decide the outcome. If the other person is holding something as a weapon the ma-ai simply alters if you are empty handed.

@geezer. Love mirrors but I hate videos. Always show us up for what we have yet to learn.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 29, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> Have you ever fought anyone who uses a hidden technique? Hands are behind them. We have to understand Ma-ai. It's the distance/timing/interval between two people. Precisely when is the other person is inside ones own ma-ai. Also kokoro ma-ai. this is the mental interval. Momentary lapses in this may also decide the outcome. If the other person is holding something as a weapon the ma-ai simply alters if you are empty handed.
> 
> @geezer. Love mirrors but I hate videos. Always show us up for what we have yet to learn.


Wouldn't it follow that your opponent is aware of his positional advantages, just as you should be aware of yours?


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 29, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Wouldn't it follow that your opponent is aware of his positional advantages, just as you should be aware of yours?


That's what I just said. Its called Ma-ai. It's not really about hands or arms either yours or his.


----------



## Tgace (Mar 29, 2015)

The whole "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" meme is for teaching fundamentals to beginners. The meme is popular in the shooting arts, yet competitive shooters train with shot timers for a reason...

Read this one:

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=12670

and/or this one:

Want to Shoot Faster Slow isn t Fast Shooting Illustrated

An important concept in tactical shooting training is to push yourself to shoot faster...to the point where you start missing...that's how you you find your limits and how you determine what you need to work on to shoot accurately at that speed.

Then you push to shoot even faster. You train to be fast by practicing fast. "Slowing down" to smooth out your technique is ALL RELATIVE. My slowing down my shooting to work on "smoothness" will probably still be far faster than a lesser trained shooter. And I'm only slowing down so that I can push my speed even faster once I have the technique ingrained.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 29, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> That's what I just said. Its called Ma-ai. It's not really about hands or arms either yours or his.


Why not? Speed of action is about good habits, and hand placement is just one of those habits.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 29, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Why not? Speed of action is about good habits, and hand placement is just one of those habits.


As I 'already' said, If you understand timing, ma-ai  you have all the time in the world to "execute". Speed is fine but if its wasted? We wear down quickly. In a long competition its the lungs that give out first.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 29, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> As I 'already' said, If you understand timing, ma-ai  you have all the time in the world to "execute". Speed is fine but if its wasted? We wear down quickly. In a long competition its the lungs that give out first.


But your punches have better timing from a set point of reference.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 29, 2015)

Timing in the martial arts means the same thing as your basic run of the mill timing. It means that your actions or in-actions happen on a timeline.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 29, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> But your punches have better timing from a set point of reference.


But the thing is its 'somebody elses timeline'you have to contend with. Opponents hit back! No good turning up for a 5:00 oclock bus at 5:30

Dont you guys kick too?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 29, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> But the thing is its 'somebody elses timeline'you have to contend with.  Dont you guys kick too?


Not as much as one would think.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 29, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> But the thing is its 'somebody elses timeline'you have to contend with. Opponents hit back! No good turning up for a 5:00 oclock bus at 5:30
> 
> Dont you guys kick too?


In the system in which I train, kicks are only inserts, to aid your hand jive.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 29, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> In the system in which I train, kicks are only inserts, to aid your hand jive.


Oh well, bang goes the method of drawing his attention to your hands and kicking him in the shin then punching him. Waza is a tried and tested technique. We can break waza down into form/shape (kata). To be be practice fast or slow until its inbuilt and can be performed in a relaxed fast manner in combat with out having to thing about it. If a guy is trying to hit you back most of it will go out the window anyway without daily continuous practice of at least a few hours a day.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 29, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> Oh well, bang goes the method of drawing his attention to your hands and kicking him in the shin then punching him. Waza is a tried and tested technique. We can break waza down into form/shape (kata). To be be practice fast or slow until its inbuilt and can be performed in a relaxed fast manner in combat with out having to thing about it. If a guy is trying to hit you back most of it will go out the window anyway without daily continuous practice of at least a few hours a day.


That sounded like an aid to me, but I am more privy to kicking his leg right out from under him.


----------



## Argus (Mar 30, 2015)

Tgace said:


> The whole "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" meme is for teaching fundamentals to beginners. The meme is popular in the shooting arts, yet competitive shooters train with shot timers for a reason...
> 
> Read this one:
> 
> ...



1. It isn't a "meme"

2. Why do you belittle "fundamentals" taught to "beginners?"

3. Why do you compare the speed of your "slow and smooth" to that of a beginner?

Of course it is important to push your limits. Of course your movements will be smoother, quicker, and more accurate than a beginner's. No-one is refuting any of that. But rest assured, if you think that only chasing speed will make you faster, and that you needn't ever "slow down" to become faster, you'll have a very difficult time expanding your limits compared to someone who takes this "meme," and these "fundamentals taught to beginners" to heart.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 30, 2015)

A mentor Iwata Norikazu. All Japan Champion and holder of 'two' menkyo kaiden who passed away at 98 two years ago once said to me, "Any idiot can do things fast and usually makes a mess of it".


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 30, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> That sounded like an aid to me, but I am more privy to kicking his leg right out from under him.



Will a leg sweep score as ippon? In my day you need a follow through.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 30, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I keep seeing people post about how *going slow helps your technique*. It doesn't. The thing that helps about going slow is that *other people can see what you are doing, and correct you.* That is it!


Isn't someone correcting your technique helping your technique?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 30, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> Will a leg sweep score as ippon? In my day you need a follow through.


Not my concern.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 30, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Isn't someone correcting your technique helping your technique?


Sure, and I can do stuff slow, lol, but Going into some weird counter-balance to move around, only builds a skill to do just that. You aren't even using the same muscles to do the task, at that point.


----------



## LibbyW (Mar 30, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> A mentor Iwata Norikazu. All Japan Champion and holder of 'two' menkyo kaiden who passed away at 98 two years ago once said to me, "Any idiot can do things fast and usually makes a mess of it".



He told me exactly the same thing


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 30, 2015)

LibbyW said:


> He told me exactly the same thing


 Roshukai?


----------



## LibbyW (Mar 30, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> Roshukai?



Yup, I only met him the once during a seminar in...oxford? I can't honestly remember, it was back in 2005-2006. A lovely man, very friendly and warm.
L


----------



## drop bear (Mar 30, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Sure, and I can do stuff slow, lol, but Going into some weird counter-balance to move around, only builds a skill to do just that. You aren't even using the same muscles to do the task, at that point.



Training the support muscles and your core. Which should help your kick.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 30, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Training the support muscles and your core. Which should help your kick.


Why does using muscles that aren't part of the process improve the kick?


----------



## Tgace (Mar 30, 2015)

Want to Shoot Faster Slow isn t Fast Shooting Illustrated



> Slow is Smooth
> 
> It is all about economy of motion. The thought behind this saying is that by moving slow, you can teach yourself the most efficient way to move your hand to the gun on a draw or move the magazine to the magazine well on a reload. This is one of the greatest advantages of dry fire—to practice the perfect motion in a controlled environment. The goal of practicing “slow” is to perform the most economical draw stroke or reload, over and over. But, as you develop a consistent movement, you must add speed. Here’s where people start to hang up, because they forget that just going slow and having a really efficient movement won’t actually turn into speed unless you actually practice going fast.
> 
> ...



Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 30, 2015)

LibbyW said:


> He told me exactly the same thing


There is a difference between speed, and trying to be fast.


----------



## Tgace (Mar 30, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> There is a difference between speed, and trying to be fast.


Yes.

In shooting its sometimes phrased as "you can't win by missing faster".

However that doesn't mean your goal is to be slow. You should always be working to operate at your fastest effective speed.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 30, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I keep seeing people post about how going slow helps your technique. It doesn't. The thing that helps about going slow is that other people can see what you are doing, and correct you. That is it!



I will admit it right now, I have only read this post in this thread and read no others.

On going slow; I'm a taijiquan guy and what going slow does is teaches you proper alignment and body connections so when you need it, at speed, everything works like it is supposed to


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 30, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> I will admit it right now, I have only read this post in this thread and read no others.
> 
> On going slow; I'm a taijiquan guy and what going slow does is teaches you proper alignment and body connections so when you need it, at speed, everything works like it is supposed to


As you learn the idea, of course.


----------



## Shai Hulud (Mar 30, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> ... so when you need it, at speed, everything works like it is supposed to


Precisely. It's to the effect that you don't botch the technique in real-time when your person is at stake.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 30, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Why does using muscles that aren't part of the process improve the kick?



Well they are. They stabilize you.


----------



## Argus (Mar 30, 2015)

Tgace said:


> Yes.
> 
> In shooting its sometimes phrased as "you can't win by missing faster".
> 
> However that doesn't mean your goal is to be slow. You should always be working to operate at your fastest effective speed.



You're confusing training for fighting. Or rather, you're confusing one particular part of training for all training and all fighting.

In Wing Chun, we play the first section of our first form very slowly. Do you think we try to fight like that? Of course not! We'd get killed. Do we go that slowly in other drills and training? No, of course not. It's simply a training method -- with a time and a place, that allows you to refine and develop certain movements and attributes.

Don't mistake one element of training for all training, and don't mistake all training for fighting.


----------



## Tgace (Mar 30, 2015)

Train as you fight..  Fundamental concept.


----------



## Argus (Mar 30, 2015)

Tgace said:


> Train as you fight..  Fundamental concept.



Again, you're taking that out of context. Moreover, it isn't a "fundamental" concept on which skills are built; it is what you would call a "meme" no different than the "fast is slow; slow is smooth; smooth is fast" mantra, but where as that mantra describes a particular method, this one describes a particular goal, and tries to provide a context for your training. For example, don't train to draw and shoot a full-size handgun from a conventional holster, if you intend to carry a sub-compact concealed in an iwb holster. It's all about context.

Training is building skills for fighting in a controlled environment. Nobody is shooting back at you. No body is trying to thrust a real knife into you. If they were, I'd wager you wouldn't have the time to learn much even if you survived the session.

Train to build the skills and attributes that you want to employ in a fight. That might mean slowing down at times. It might mean speeding up at times. It might mean working with artificial limitations at times, and working with very few limitations at other times. It might mean training versus any given level of resistance or compliance.

Everything has a place, a time, a function, and a context. Working on skills in isolation and with varying inputs is essential to learning and developing skill.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 30, 2015)

Tgace said:


> Train as you fight..  Fundamental concept.


Agree! The "fast speed feeling" should be part of your training. If you want to train "shaking - fast pull and fast push", you can't train in slow speed. There is no such thing as "slow shaking".

fast footwork:






fast footwork + fast striking combo:






fast punches:


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 30, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Well they are. They stabilize you.



That's probably more about posture as well


----------



## Tgace (Mar 30, 2015)

“smooth is fast but slow is just @#$%^&* slow.” -Kyle Lamb


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 30, 2015)

The "fast speed training" is a must for the praying mantis system.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 30, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Well they are. They stabilize you.


I'm not trying to counter balance, therefore I don't need it.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 30, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> That's probably more about posture as well



Yeah. You need your whole body to move well.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 30, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I'm not trying to counter balance, therefore I don't need it.



Yeah but you are relying on those small stabilizer muscles and your core to hold your body together. Those guys that can kick well slow have pretty good control where there leg goes.

Like doing weights on a fit ball.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 30, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but you are relying on those small stabilizer muscles and your core to hold your body together. Those guys that can kick well slow have pretty good control where there leg goes.
> 
> Like doing weights on a fit ball.


I don't advocate using weights either.  (It makes you slow)


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 30, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I don't advocate using weights either.  (It makes you slow)


Correction! A mace or a hammer can train you to be faster, but that is because of the dynamics of those tools.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 30, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I don't advocate using weights either.  (It makes you slow)



Plenty of competitive fighters disagree.

Except ronda rousey. Because apparently she doesn't lift.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 30, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Plenty of competitive fighters disagree.
> 
> Except ronda rousey. Because apparently she doesn't lift.


Training for speed involves using weights, such as a stick or claw hammer, that will actually when started in motion, by you, will make your arm move faster, simply because the weight of the weapon pulls you along. This helps your body over ride its own self defense mechanism, of being slow to avoid pulling your joints out of socket or something, and in the end you can move faster than if you had not used the weights; however, heavy weights, while doing things slow is not going to ever help your speed, but I'm sure it builds muscle, and you just might feel better about yourself, and girls will like you! , but again, it won't help you be fast.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 30, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Training for speed involves using weights, such as a stick or claw hammer, that will actually when started in motion, by you, will make your arm move faster, simply because the weight of the weapon pulls you along. This helps your body over ride its own self defense mechanism, of being slow to avoid pulling your joints out of socket or something, and in the end you can move faster than if you had not used the weights; however, heavy weights, while doing things slow is not going to ever help your speed, but I'm sure it builds muscle, and you just might feel better about yourself, and girls will like you! , but again, it won't help you be fast.



And your theory is based on what exactly?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 30, 2015)

drop bear said:


> And your theory is based on what exactly?


I'm just sayin', Plus I have been hearing this stuff for thirty years. Consider it a gift.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 30, 2015)

Fast and Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber Types

Fast twitch and slow twitch muscles and how strength and speed is built in a similar fashion.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 30, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I'm just sayin', Plus I have been hearing this stuff for thirty years. Consider it a gift.



You shouldn't always listen to stuff you hear.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 30, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You shouldn't always listen to stuff you hear.


You either. Like that stuff about a counter-balance helping you do a non-counter-balanced move. I think you just want to believe.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 30, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> You either. Like that stuff about a counter-balance helping you do a non-counter-balanced move. I think you just want to believe.



You are still counter balancing that kick. Mostly aiming the thing.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 30, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You are still counter balancing that kick. Mostly aiming the thing.


No, you are.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 30, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Training for speed involves using weights, such as a stick or claw hammer, that will actually when started in motion, by you, will make your arm move faster, simply because the weight of the weapon pulls you along. This helps your body over ride its own self defense mechanism, of being slow to avoid pulling your joints out of socket or something, and in the end you can move faster than if you had not used the weights; however, heavy weights, while doing things slow is not going to ever help your speed, but I'm sure it builds muscle, and you just might feel better about yourself, and girls will like you! , but again, it won't help you be fast.


That's the first time i have ever heard that one. The weight of a weapon pulls you along? So why do you practice. Is it for kata, self defence? Where does all your power come from to punch. I'm curious.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 30, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> That's the first time i have ever heard that one. The weight of a weapon pulls you along? So why do you practice. Is it for kata, self defence? Where does all your power come from to punch. I'm curious.


Personally, I am more about alignment, and launching my 200+LB body around, and what ever power comes from that, plus letting the weight of the weapon do the work, all ends up being enough.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 30, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> That's the first time i have ever heard that one. The weight of a weapon pulls you along? So why do you practice. Is it for kata, self defence? Where does all your power come from to punch. I'm curious.


A punch is just an out and back motion with your hand, the power is in the hip, or the ground, if you are a rooting junky.


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 30, 2015)

Well. If you look at history, I reckon TOD is right. Doubt you would have found many Romans hitting the gym. Thousands of hours on sword drill would have done the muscle work. Yeah would have taken time, but those shields are bloody heavy as well. Just my take on it.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 31, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Well. If you look at history, I reckon TOD is right. Doubt you would have found many Romans hitting the gym. Thousands of hours on sword drill would have done the muscle work. Yeah would have taken time, but those shields are bloody heavy as well. Just my take on it.



We did this on another thread and it was just photo after photo of Chinese/Japanese masters smashing the weights. Do you think strength training is some sort of new trick for fighters?


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> We did this on another thread and it was just photo after photo of Chinese/Japanese masters smashing the weights. Do you think strength training is some sort of new trick for fighters?



Strength no, the full application of strength. Yes that is pretty inherent to the person. You cannot measure that!


----------



## drop bear (Mar 31, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Strength no, the full application of strength. Yes that is pretty inherent to the person. You cannot measure that!



People lifting heavy stuff to get better at fighting.


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> People lifting heavy stuff to get better at fighting.



That is not the measure of strength, lifting heavy stuff is just an add-on.


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> People lifting heavy stuff to get better at fighting.



And fighting is inherent to the person. Experience of life, not a training area  Something ingrained at birth.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 31, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> That is not the measure of strength, lifting heavy stuff is just an add-on.



Anyway I found the thread.

Why do many traditional martial artists look down on weighlifting some even calling it EASY MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

T.O.D. Is basically alone on this idea that lifting weight does not help your martial arts.


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Anyway I found the thread.
> 
> Why do many traditional martial artists look down on weighlifting some even calling it EASY MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community
> 
> T.O.D. Is basically alone on this idea that lifting weight does not help your martial arts.



Stop the misdirection. Wieght lifting helps the body. Yeah okay heaping muscle mass may add power, some need, some don't. Power is variable.


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Anyway I found the thread.
> 
> Why do many traditional martial artists look down on weighlifting some even calling it EASY MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community
> 
> T.O.D. Is basically alone on this idea that lifting weight does not help your martial arts.



Actually he is not.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 31, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Stop the misdirection. Wieght lifting helps the body. Yeah okay heaping muscle mass may add power, some need, some don't. Power is variable.



Ok it is not a misdirection. You gain strength through strength training. That is how you get stronger. Not inherent ability,not chi. Stronger equals better martial artist.

And every culture uses pretty much the same method.


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You gain strength through strength training. That is how you get stronger



The baseline is inherent ability.



drop bear said:


> Not inherent ability,



See above.



drop bear said:


> And every culture uses pretty much the same method.



Generalist answer


----------



## drop bear (Mar 31, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> The baseline is inherent ability.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok. If you are 150kg just walking around you will get stronger than if you are 50kg 

If you are 50kg you will get stronger if you lift weights than if you don't lift weight. There is nothing you can do about other people but you can do something about you. So I don't know how inherent ability is a factor in your martial arts training.

Not generalist. Not even my idea. A whole thread full of people saying strength training makes you a better martial artist. All different styles and different cultures.

Which basically makes it an accepted idea in martial arts circles.


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Ok. If you are 150kg just walking around you will get stronger than if you are 50kg
> 
> If you are 50kg you will get stronger if you lift weights than if you don't lift weight. There is nothing you can do about other people but you can do something about you. So I don't know how inherent ability is a factor in your martial arts training.
> 
> ...



Martial Arts circles which is you! You are always citing others


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Anyway I found the thread.
> 
> Why do many traditional martial artists look down on weighlifting some even calling it EASY MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community
> 
> T.O.D. Is basically alone on this idea that lifting weight does not help your martial arts.


Weights are like fertilizer. It may make your plant more durable, but it does not teach your plants Karate.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 31, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Weights are like fertilizer. It may make your plant more durable, but it does not teach your plants Karate.



Fighting is physical. There is no magical escape from that idea.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Fighting is physical. There is no magical escape from that idea.


I didn't say it wasn't ok,  am saying they don't help you punch, or kick your opponent anymore than actually punching and kicking a bag, or a partner.


----------



## Danny T (Apr 1, 2015)

Depends upon what weight strengthening one does. Strengthening the proper muscles that one punches and kicks with will help greatly.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 1, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Martial Arts circles which is you! You are always citing others



Well a whole bunch of people on this forum plus whoever those guys were smashing the weights in that thread I linked.

And that was without bothering to find my own links to the benefits of strength training.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 1, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Depends upon what weight strengthening one does. Strengthening the proper muscles that one punches and kicks with will help greatly.


I doubt curling a dumbbell will help with your punches, but curl away.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 1, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I doubt curling a dumbbell will help with your punches, but curl away.



Martial arts strength training

A wing chun article on strength training. Just in case you think conditioning only exists for sports fighters.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 1, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Martial arts strength training
> 
> A wing chun article on strength training. Just in case you think conditioning only exists for sports fighters.


How many times do I have to tell you, I don't have a problem with weight lifting. I just know it doesn't increase your speed. Stamina, maybe, but not speed.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 1, 2015)

In fact, I will attest that dropping French and taking a weight lifting class, in high school, was probably one of the smartest things I have ever done. The job I do requires that skill, and I am one of the only people running around, there, that is all gimped up from a lifting injury. That being said, it didn't make me any faster.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 1, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> How many times do I have to tell you, I don't have a problem with weight lifting. I just know it doesn't increase your speed. Stamina, maybe, but not speed.



Ok. And how do you know it doesn't increase speed?


----------



## drop bear (Apr 1, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> In fact, I will attest that dropping French and taking a weight lifting class, in high school, was probably one of the smartest things I have ever done. The job I do requires that skill, and I am one of the only people running around, there, that is all gimped up from a lifting injury. That being said, it didn't make me any faster.



It makes sprinters faster.
Weight Training Program for Sprinters and Fast Running lifting for speed&utm_content=p1-main-2-title&utm_medium=sem&utm_source=msn&utm_campaign=adid-067146c5-ea92-42f4-b9e5-b8b7fd8c9192-0-ab_msb_ocode-29642&ad=semD&an=msn_s&am=broad&q=weight lifting for speed&dqi=weight%2520lifting%2520speed%2520increase&o=29642&l=sem&qsrc=999&askid=067146c5-ea92-42f4-b9e5-b8b7fd8c9192-0-ab_msb


----------



## geezer (Apr 1, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Martial arts strength training
> 
> A *wing chun* article on strength training. Just in case you think conditioning only exists for sports fighters.


 
Intersting choice of article, _Drop_. Indeed, _Wing Chun_ is one of the arts where there is a lot of resistance to typical weight lifting exercises since some lineages place such great emphasis on relaxation in power generation. Back when I was lifting I did find that getting a bit bulkier did interfere with my quickness in drills like _Chi Sau_. Part of that is they way I was lifting. Curls, as_ TOD_ mentioned, were not helpful in WC. Basically we need to develop othe muscles used in extending our punches more. But on the other hand, _bulgy biceps_ look so cool.

Another problem with developing more mass is that you have more inertia. Great for driving power, but not so good for drills like Chi-Sau that require "sensitivity" and the ability to move with your opponent's ent's energy, feeling for oppenings and making quick changes to penetrate his defences without resorting to "crashing force".  However, it's good to remember that Chi-Sau is just a training exercise. An important one, but still just a drill. People seem to forget that WC, like any martial art, is ultimately about _fighting_. And strength is very helpful. And strength training is part of WC

Well that's all history now. Lately all I've got is a _bulgy gut_. And I can fight better than ever ...as long as its only on a keyboard!


----------



## Troubadour (Apr 1, 2015)

I guess, being a musician myself, I'm pretty firmly in the camp of "go slow to perfect the small details as much as possible before speeding up."

I see so many kids/teens in classes that fly through their practice (lazy loose fists, poor stances, no power behind strikes and blocks, etc...). I guess I just don't see any upside to not first taking everything a step at a time to make sure everything is as correct as possible. 

Yeah, you'd want to be fast in a real combat situation, but if that was the case, I'm going to use what I AM fast and comfortable with. I'm not going to try a fancy take-down I'm not comfortable practicing.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 1, 2015)

Troubadour said:


> I guess, being a musician myself, I'm pretty firmly in the camp of "go slow to perfect the small details as much as possible before speeding up."
> 
> I see so many kids/teens in classes that fly through their practice (lazy loose fists, poor stances, no power behind strikes and blocks, etc...). I guess I just don't see any upside to not first taking everything a step at a time to make sure everything is as correct as possible.
> 
> Yeah, you'd want to be fast in a real combat situation, but if that was the case, I'm going to use what I AM fast and comfortable with. I'm not going to try a fancy take-down I'm not comfortable practicing.


The same result in music can be achieved by playing at normal speed, but stopping and re-starting, from the beginning, at each mistake, but as you are talking about the learning phase, and I am talking about something a bit different.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 1, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Ok. And how do you know it doesn't increase speed?


I think I mentioned the type of weight lifting that increases speed, and bench pressing, ain't one of them.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 1, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Ok. And how do you know it doesn't increase speed?


I think I mentioned the type of weight lifting that increases speed, and bench pressing, ain't one of them.


----------



## Tgace (Apr 1, 2015)

Troubadour said:


> I guess, being a musician myself, I'm pretty firmly in the camp of "go slow to perfect the small details as much as possible before speeding up."
> 
> I see so many kids/teens in classes that fly through their practice (lazy loose fists, poor stances, no power behind strikes and blocks, etc...). I guess I just don't see any upside to not first taking everything a step at a time to make sure everything is as correct as possible.
> 
> Yeah, you'd want to be fast in a real combat situation, but if that was the case, I'm going to use what I AM fast and comfortable with. I'm not going to try a fancy take-down I'm not comfortable practicing.


The trouble arises when people believe that speed...training at speed...and training specifically to become faster is somehow bad because... "slow is smooth". 

That mindset is flat wrong.


----------



## Tgace (Apr 1, 2015)

Tgace said:


> The trouble arises when people believe that speed...training at speed...and training specifically to become faster is somehow bad because... "slow is smooth".
> 
> That mindset is flat wrong.


Its in the same neighborhood as "weight training will make me bulky/slow/less dependent on technique... Etc.

Its all based more on myth and anecdotes than it is on exercise science that seems fairly well proven.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 1, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> How many times do I have to tell you, I don't have a problem with weight lifting. I just know it doesn't increase your speed. Stamina, maybe, but not speed.


If you train with 

- "explosive/exponential" speed with your weight, you will increase your speed. 
- "constant" speed with your weight, you won't increase your speed.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 1, 2015)

Tgace said:


> "slow is smooth". That mindset is flat wrong.


Agree! If you are used to be slow, your body may not be able to feel comfortable when you move fast. Just try to throw 60 punches on your heavy bag non-stop as fast and as powerful as you can, you will soon find out that your "slow" body may not be ready for that. Try to spring as fast as you can for 100 yards will be another good test.

There are some extra requirement for speed such as

- a strong heart,
- fast muscle reaction,
- ...

that you just can't develop through your slow training.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 1, 2015)

Tgace said:


> The trouble arises when people believe that speed...training at speed...and training specifically to become faster is somehow bad because... "slow is smooth".
> 
> That mindset is flat wrong.



Slow as a form of resistance training?

Especially with kicks.


----------



## Transk53 (Apr 1, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Well a whole bunch of people on this forum plus whoever those guys were smashing the weights in that thread I linked.
> 
> And that was without bothering to find my own links to the benefits of strength training.



No Bear, I mean that you always seem to speak in third person. How you speak  No dis.


----------



## Transk53 (Apr 1, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Ok. And how do you know it doesn't increase speed?



Because as I always bang on about, it is intrinsic. I do believe you can hone to virtual percepted limit.


----------



## Danny T (Apr 1, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I doubt curling a dumbbell will help with your punches, but curl away.


Strengthening the proper muscles that one punches and kicks with will help greatly. Curling isn't going to help strengthen the triceps which one uses for punching however curling will help your standing clinch. Triceps presses will help your punching, lap pulls will also. Leg presses and weighted calf presses or raises will help.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Apr 2, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I keep seeing people post about how going slow helps your technique. It doesn't. The thing that helps about going slow is that other people can see what you are doing, and correct you. That is it!



T.O.D.,

I have read your post here and some others through this thread. 

I have to disagree. 

Going slow so others to see you and correct you I agree with. 

Going Slow to learn a new technique is also good. I mean if you walked into a FMA school the first day and they pulled out a real sword or a training sword or a rattan cane and handed it to you and grabbed the equivalent for yourself, and then went fast and at your timing with the student not knowing anything, then someone is going to get hurt possible seriously and the student learns nothing. 

Now once a person learns it slow, and the proper timing of the situation then slowly increasing the timing and not going ballistic right away is how one gets faster and eventually fast. 

Note: being Fast does not make one on Time with their technique. they still could be late or early. Neither gets the desired results. 

So as written, I have to disagree with with you. 


If you meant (* and maybe you have clarified and I did not browse that message - my apologies if that is true *) that going slow only is bad. Then yes I see that as being true. Yet that is not what you wrote. You said going slow adds no benefit or actually you stated it does not help at all with one exception of being able to be corrected.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 3, 2015)

Rich Parsons said:


> T.O.D.,
> 
> I have read your post here and some others through this thread.
> 
> ...


I agree it was poorly worded; perhaps, I should have said, "Not as much as you think".


----------



## RTKDCMB (Apr 3, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Slow as a form of resistance training?
> 
> Especially with kicks.


Try doing a head high front kick slowly (take about 5 seconds).


----------



## RTKDCMB (Apr 3, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I keep seeing people post about how going slow helps your technique. It doesn't. The thing that helps about going slow is that other people can see what you are doing, and correct you. That is it!


When never going slow leads to this then you need to go slower:


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 3, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Try doing a head high front kick slowly (take about 5 seconds).


Why?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 3, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> When never going slow leads to this then you need to go slower:


This is clearly a case of those people not knowing the material at any speed.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Apr 3, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Why?


To see how much resistance there is. Holding out a front kick above waist height for any extended amount of time is extremely difficult.


----------



## Balrog (Apr 4, 2015)

yak sao said:


> The person who asked this was obviously a beginner. And my advice to him was the same I would give to any beginner, or anyone learning something new.
> And that advice is: "Don't worry about going fast...learn the technique, go slowly, study it, become smooth with it. If you do this, then the movement naturally becomes faster as it becomes more efficient.


Dingdingding, for the win.  Well stated.


----------



## Zero (Apr 7, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> To see how much resistance there is. Holding out a front kick above waist height for any extended amount of time is extremely difficult.


It also takes a lot of effort, I tried it this morning with both 2 high front kicks and then 2 high snap kicks each leg.  Those slow kicks took more effort and concentration than, I would say, a couple minutes of normal intensity kicking on the heavy bag.  I don't recommend this kind of slow training to anyone!   

We used to do this slow training and accuracy work for high kicks way back in goju ryu but it's been years since I did this.  It's great for building up stabiliser muscles and balance but it's just a part of a much larger thing. When you have the balance and technique sorted, increase your speed.

Solid technique performed at speed is the goal.  That said, just like in sport with a slow pitch, a slow strike can sometimes deceive an opponent.  It can also be be nice to do half the movement of a kick slow, make it look like a slow kick to leg or torso, and then whip out the speed for the second half of the movement and connect to the head. Deceptive if not done too often.  Messing with speed and tempo is fun.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Apr 7, 2015)

Zero said:


> It also takes a lot of effort, I tried it this morning with both 2 high front kicks and then 2 high snap kicks each leg.  Those slow kicks took more effort and concentration than, I would say, a couple minutes of normal intensity kicking on the heavy bag.  I don't recommend this kind of slow training to anyone!  .


I have never been able to do it with a front kick but used to be able to do it with a side kick easily enough although I have noticed that the height got gradually lower as I got older.


----------



## Zero (Apr 7, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> I have never been able to do it with a front kick but used to be able to do it with a side kick easily enough although I have noticed that the height got gradually lower as I got older.


Yes(!!), side kick much easier for me too (front kick is a nightmare chambering the knee high slowly and then extending out kick high).  But then, I have always used side snap kick or high hook kick much more than high front kick in tournaments and training so there might be a lot of muscle memory playing into that difference.

Funnily enough, while I was trying out Wing Chun for a couple of years, there was this black shirt that had tremendous balance on the front kick, he could do this slowly and fully extend out his kick very high.  It used to annoy me (well, not really annoy, maybe frustrate a little...ok, it secretly pissed me off no end!! hehe!) having come from years of TKD and a few years of karate at that stage and seeing myself as a good kicker that this guy who didn't even use high kicks could pull this off well and under control!!


----------

