# 5 year old black belts?



## Calhoun

Seen an Ad and had kids 5 yr old with Black Belts.
I don't know what kind of training one gets or teaches a 5 yr old to be black belt.
But I do see how that differs people to not want to join any martial arts class/school, etc.
This is plain and simple black belt factory. I hear "ATA" schools have some kind of annual dues for ones to keep their Black Belt rating (whether you continue to practice or not) and some schools a person can become blackbelt in 1-1/2 years.
Since I go to class and spend alot of money for what I do these types of schools. really gets to me. I'll probably will be black belt canidate when I'm 49,(purple, for awhile now by my choice)
There's alot of forms to remember, besides all the other basics stance,kicks, etc.
I myself at this point really do not have Black Belt goal date set, I just keep doing it in case I need to use and keeps me in shape.

Maybe someone can tell me what it took for a 5 yr old get get a 1 dan black belt?


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## shauntkd

The KKW will not certify anyone under the age of 15 as a BB. USAT will only give a poom certification to someone under 15.


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## Calhoun

What's KKW?


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## Jade Tigress

I have a question about this. Suppose the child trains for 2 years, is tested say...every 2 months, learns the material for their age level and reaches bb. The child continues training. Wouldn't they have to start at white again learning the next set of curriculum for the age level? This has always confused me.


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## shauntkd

The kukkiwon


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## Carol

Calhoun said:


> Maybe someone can tell me what it took for a 5 yr old get get a 1 dan black belt?


 
Certified check or money order is usually a good place to start.


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## Dave Leverich

Personally, I started in the ATA 21 years ago (nearly 22 now).

_"I hear "ATA" schools have some kind of annual dues for ones to keep their Black Belt rating (whether you continue to practice or not) and some schools a person can become blackbelt in 1-1/2 years."_

It took me nearly 3 years to get my 1st degree, practicing 2-3 hours per night, 4-5 days per week. Granted, they are licensed schools (meaning you're not bound to completely rigid rule on some things).

With every organization, you'll find good and bad, I'm sure there are those out there with open hands, but I'm sure there are those in other organizations as well. I've seen all forms of TKD Karate for Kids out there though, although I haven't noticed ITF or WTF, I've seen probably 10 different versions of the same cookie.

As far as paying to keep the black belt rank... Does any organization remove rank for inactivity? There is an annual due to retain membership, but it's like under $15 (and basically covers the cost of the magazine).

Anyway, from the tone of the first post, I really hope this isn't the yee-old bash the ATA forum. I saw enough of that on Bullshido thanks.


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## terryl965

shauntkd said:


> The KKW will not certify anyone under the age of 15 as a BB. USAT will only give a poom certification to someone under 15.


 

This is not a true statement under the age of 15 they are consider a POOM rank but they are BB, when they hit 15 they can send in the paperwork and change the poom for a dan rank. USAT will also give out poom ranks but they are BB and that I can promise you.


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## terryl965

Jade Tigress said:


> I have a question about this. Suppose the child trains for 2 years, is tested say...every 2 months, learns the material for their age level and reaches bb. The child continues training. Wouldn't they have to start at white again learning the next set of curriculum for the age level? This has always confused me.


 

No Jade  if they are Kukkiwon certied they just transfer there poom BB for a dan rank right now the cost is 40.00 dollars, this only happens when they turn 15 and send in the paperwork.


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## exile

Dave Leverich said:


> Anyway, from the tone of the first post, I really hope this isn't the yee-old bash the ATA forum. I saw enough of that on Bullshido thanks.



Hi Dave---I don't think anyone intends to bash ATA (if things start getting nasty---and it's not common---the mods step in). The discussion is intended to remain friendly. That doesn't mean you never get heated exchanges, and there are probably very few orgs out there that _someone_ on the site hasn't had trouble with at one time or another... but no, nothing here is like Bullshido!


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## Dave Leverich

Good enough for me 

Way I figure, you have good and bad in every organization.
After this long, half the people I trained with that still train are now WTF or ITF, or HTF, or ITA... etc.

I just think I'm a little too much of one person to stand up and try to defend every instance of something linking back to one organization. I'd much rather talk about martial arts


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## Kacey

To get back to the original question, I personally have a real problem with awarding black belts to kids who still need to hold a parent's hand to walk across the parking lot.  Part of being a black belt, IMHO, is the ability to teach what you have learned.  I know some very talented teens who can teach - but I've never met a 5 year-old, no matter how talented, who could properly instruct other students.  We don't have a junior black belt - a Poom rank like Terry is talking about - but you have to be 14 to test to BB in our association.


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## Dave Leverich

I hear you.
I'd be hard-pressed to test anyone under 10/12 up that high, and it'd be an individual bases for sure. I did watch one 12 year old test for 1st degree, sparred continuously for 45 minutes, medium contact, vs all the blackbelts in the school (including guests). I'd seen this kid give 300% for years in training. He made most adults work ethic seem lacking... I was proud to see that one get his black, at 12.


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## searcher

I have heard stories of these "5 YO BB", but I have never seen one.   I kinda feel it is like looking for Bigfoot or Nessie.   Not a very productive venture for me.


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## ArmorOfGod

I have been to many tournaments over the years and seen quite a few.

AoG


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## TX_BB

Part of the problem I think your having is, " What is a Black Belt?" In some cases it is a sign of what class of fighter you have for the sport. To me a Black Belt is the begining of understanding for most martial artists.


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## wade

No, no, and Hel, uh, hel, uh, heck no. When you are a white belt everything is based on your physical ability. When you are a BB everything should be based on you mental ability. Soooooooo, no! Not gonna see a 5 year old BB. I don't care how talented they are, not gonna happen with me.


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## TKDmel

First I must say that it is admirable that a child of 5 has the ability to memorize and execute all the poomse and self-defense techniques needed to pass a BB test. However, knowing first hand how children tend to drift from one sport or interest to another, can a 5y/o stay focused enough to continue to train for the next 11 yrs. to become a full dan. As an adult we have the mental and emotional tools to continue through what might be called a rut, boredom, repitition, injury etc. It doesn't take much to distract a juvinile mind. If TKD or any art is to become a strong cohesive institution, then retention is the key. I just don't think that attaining a BB/poome at such a tender age is wise.


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## mango.man

My child started at age 5 and is now 14 and has not slowed down at all.  If anything her drive to excel in this sport has increased several fold.


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## Jade Tigress

terryl965 said:


> No Jade  if they are Kukkiwon certied they just transfer there poom BB for a dan rank right now the cost is 40.00 dollars, this only happens when they turn 15 and send in the paperwork.



Thanks Terry. But what about other organizations? Do you have children that reach bb? What happens next? When they are ready to move on? Obviously kids are training to their level. As they age, they must continue training to their level. So, are they eternal black belts, or do they enter the next phase as white? I'm talking about legit schools here, not mcdojo buying rank.


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## terryl965

Jade Tigress said:


> Thanks Terry. But what about other organizations? Do you have children that reach bb? What happens next? When they are ready to move on? Obviously kids are training to their level. As they age, they must continue training to their level. So, are they eternal black belts, or do they enter the next phase as white? I'm talking about legit schools here, not mcdojo buying rank.


 

Here comes the problem with the Kukkiwon at 15 they can simply pay a fee and get there Dan rank with no more training. Now my three sons will go though an adult training period before they can get there BB as an adult but unfortunite as it might be other can simply re apply for that rank even if they stop training at age 12, when they hit 15 they can have it changed over.

I cannot speak for every org. I just know what the Kukkiwon does and that is how I go, they make there rule and I just follow. Well you know me not really follow anybody. I have been lucky everybody I have even given a Poom rank to is still at my school, so they are willing to put the time in. It must be how I teach them about there training and what it really means.


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## Bret Hinds

For 25.00 you can go to Wal-mart and get a Black -Belt kit in the toy  section.  A five year old Black Belt is a cruel joke to the parents , But some McDojangs need the money I take it as a insult to my students who work hard for there rank. To see a five year old that is filled with false pride is fraud. Our school has a little dragon class for 5 to 6 year olds It is a chore just for them just to stand at cunbi. I guess I will jump of my soap box,sorry if I insulted anyone. All the best in the arts


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## TX_BB

Just a trivial aside, I remember judging a 9 year old 3rd degree once. She  was the best 3rd I saw all day at that state championship. Granted there was probably only 8 competitors for the whole day and she was 1 of 4 kids but was impressive to see a young lady withthat kind of knoweldge, intensity, discipline and composurer. 

I later found out that she was in the dojang for about 3 hours per day and Dad and Grandpa were relatively strick with her. Yes, her certification was definetly valid from the KKW. She probably got her 1st at 4.


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## wade

To go from 1st Dan to 3rd Dan according to the KKW takes a minimum of 3 years, not counting the time as an under belt to earn your KKW 1st Dan certification. So, if the young lady was a 3rd she would have to have gotten her 1st at 6. Also, since a KKW is counted from the date of issue not the date of the test, I agree, she must have been pretty young when she started.  


Oh, BTW, I do have one of the Walmart BB kits. I love it.


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## TKDmel

While I oppose the concept of a junior BB, my school makes it very clear to the kids and parents at the belt ceremony, that the kids are not dan holders, but rather poome holders. They are aware that children can not be BB, but are the equivilant of a BB.


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## Fluffy

Yea Dave, this is a great forum.  I don't spend as much time as I wish I could here.  Did you go to Mr. Huges/GM Pierce's seminar this weekend?


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## stoneheart

I believe 5 year old dans are a disgrace to the martial arts.  I don't even tell my neighbors in my subdivision that I study myself.  I know I'll get some story about how Junior is a third degree black belt and he got there in just 3 short years!


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## IcemanSK

My whole thing about a 5 year old black belt is, "how can that mean anything to the kid?" He/she has "peaked" at 5. Thelikelyhood of there being a "been there, done that" attitude is gonna be huge with that child.

I have an 8 year old BB that I took in from another school (as a lot of you know). While his respect for me is what I'd expect from a kid who's spent 3 years in a dojang, his ability is sorely lacking. His technique was "good enough" at the old school because mom's check cleared. I have my doubts as to whether he will stick around long enough to learn the Art. I think my standards will be too much for him. In his mind, he's "got it" already.


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## zDom

Five year old blackbelt  even a poom  is highly suspect in my book.

Lemme see them do all their forms, then I might believe it.

I'd be surprised if a five-year-old could even do Koryo, much less ALL the the taegueks.

Even if their organization lets them rush through all the belts in two years, that means they were able to do their first form at AGE THREE?

Suuuuuuure.


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## DArnold

Dave Leverich said:


> Personally, I started in the ATA 21 years ago (nearly 22 now).
> 
> _"I hear "ATA" schools have some kind of annual dues for ones to keep their Black Belt rating (whether you continue to practice or not) and some schools a person can become blackbelt in 1-1/2 years."_
> 
> It took me nearly 3 years to get my 1st degree, practicing 2-3 hours per night, 4-5 days per week. Granted, they are licensed schools (meaning you're not bound to completely rigid rule on some things).
> 
> With every organization, you'll find good and bad, I'm sure there are those out there with open hands, but I'm sure there are those in other organizations as well. I've seen all forms of TKD Karate for Kids out there though, although I haven't noticed ITF or WTF, I've seen probably 10 different versions of the same cookie.
> 
> As far as paying to keep the black belt rank... Does any organization remove rank for inactivity? There is an annual due to retain membership, but it's like under $15 (and basically covers the cost of the magazine).


 
The rank is a measure of the worth of the organazation.

As the old addage goes, "There are those that wear a black belt and there are those that are a black belt"

You touched on one funny thing though.  As the ITF has fallen apart and the seniors expel each other and revoke each others rank I have often wondered...
When my rank was revoked, how did they suck the knowledge out of my head?
LOL :ultracool


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## FieldDiscipline

DArnold said:


> As the old addage goes, "There are those that wear a black belt and there are those that are a black belt"


 
Very very true.



> When my rank was revoked, how did they suck the knowledge out of my head?


 
Very, very funny


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## TKDmel

IcemanSK said:


> My whole thing about a 5 year old black belt is, "how can that mean anything to the kid?" He/she has "peaked" at 5. Thelikelyhood of there being a "been there, done that" attitude is gonna be huge with that child..


 
Case in point....2 boys at my school just recieved their BB last week.  This week they quit. Children should not be black belts period.  I feel and will always feel that programs should be targeting the adult students who, for whatever their personal reasons for taking MA's, will probably remain for years. Children will always be a big part of MA's so targeting them is redundant. Get the parents "hooked" on the benefits of MA's and the rest will sort itself out.


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## mango.man

I have seen people quit all the time, at all sorts of ages.  People sometimes set goals in life and when they achieve their goal they move on to the next 1.  Over the years that we were at our previous dojang, I probably saw 150 or so people test for and or get their BB.  I can count on 2 hands and 1 foot the number of those BBs that are still active at the dojang.


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## Kacey

TKDmel said:


> Case in point....2 boys at my school just recieved their BB last week.  This week they quit. Children should not be black belts period.  I feel and will always feel that programs should be targeting the adult students who, for whatever their personal reasons for taking MA's, will probably remain for years. Children will always be a big part of MA's so targeting them is redundant. Get the parents "hooked" on the benefits of MA's and the rest will sort itself out.



I agree with Mango Man on this.  Simply because people - of any age - quit after receiving a BB does not mean people in that group should not be allowed to attain that rank.  What if the 2 people who tested had been adults?  Would that mean that adults should never have been allowed to attain BB because they might quit right after?  

I tested for I Dan in a mass, state-wide testing that had 4 test boards with at least 5 senior BBs on each board, with groups of 20-25 at each board - between 80 and 100 students.  Of those who tested with me, I know of about a dozen who stayed and trained enough to reach II Dan.  17 years after testing for BB, I don't know of anyone else still active who tested for BB when I did, along with quite a few who reached BB after me and then quit - and yes, they were all adults, and yes, a significant number dropped out, if not immediately, then certianly within 6 months.  Should all of those people have not been allowed to test to BB because they were going to drop out?

For too many people, attaining BB is an ending, not the beginning it should be - but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be allowed to attain the rank, simply because they want to stop there.


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## IcemanSK

Kacey said:


> I agree with Mango Man on this. Simply because people - of any age - quit after receiving a BB does not mean people in that group should not be allowed to attain that rank. What if the 2 people who tested had been adults? Would that mean that adults should never have been allowed to attain BB because they might quit right after?
> 
> I tested for I Dan in a mass, state-wide testing that had 4 test boards with at least 5 senior BBs on each board, with groups of 20-25 at each board - between 80 and 100 students. Of those who tested with me, I know of about a dozen who stayed and trained enough to reach II Dan. 17 years after testing for BB, I don't know of anyone else still active who tested for BB when I did, along with quite a few who reached BB after me and then quit - and yes, they were all adults, and yes, a significant number dropped out, if not immediately, then certianly within 6 months. Should all of those people have not been allowed to test to BB because they were going to drop out?
> 
> For too many people, attaining BB is an ending, not the beginning it should be - but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be allowed to attain the rank, simply because they want to stop there.


 
To add to what Kacey said so well, part of retention is how BB is addressed at the school. In my first school, my instructor never addressed "beyond BB" for us students. He was a 6th Dan, but we only 1st Dans at the school. I never heard of or saw what one does "after BB."

In the school that I run, I "pump up" the BB a lot. But I also talk a lot about "beyond BB" in terms of more learning, teaching & lots of the other fun parts of MA. Will folks still leave? Yup. But maybe it will catch on with some that BB isn't the "end all."


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## DArnold

Rule 1 - Students Quite

Rule 2 - Instructors can not change Rule 1

Rule 3 - If you are a teacher then you teach. If you have 1 student or 100.  The only prerequesit is that the student wants to learn.  (Not age, sex, uniform, money... I have never turned down a student for money's sake)

Rule 4 - You can only help students for the time that they show up

Rule 5 - The number 1 killer of instructors is Rule 1

Rule 6 - If you produce 1 student who achieves your love for the art and will spend thier life passing on the art then you have had a successful career

Rule 7 - You don't teach for your students, you teach for yourself.  (If you don't belive this then tell me how many students are still around that started with you when you first started teaching???)

Rule 8 - Every time you feel like quiting teaching, the next class, everyone will show up

I have more but it's late...


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## wayofhandandfoot

My instructor is from korea and every practioner that studies and takes the BB test does not wear the actual black belt unless or until they are atleast 18. That makes more sense to me. Otherswise it sounds like a money maker. A five year old hasn't spent enough time on earth to understand the art.


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## mango.man

I see Jr Black Belts from Korea at all sorts of competitions.  How can this be if they are not supposed to don a BB until age 18?


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## terryl965

mango.man said:


> I see Jr Black Belts from Korea at all sorts of competitions. How can this be if they are not supposed to don a BB until age 18?


 

Mango man seeing BB at tournament does not mean they are Dan rank they are consider Poom rank until the age of 15 and then they can send in proper paperwork and transfer the poom rank for a dan rank. That is just the way of the Kukkiwon.


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## mango.man

I understand that Master Stoker.  By "don" I meant wear, not dan as in rank.  My comment was addressing wayofhandandfoot's comment that in Korea people are not allowed to don / wear a black belt until they are 18 and I was just commenting that I have seen dozens if not hundreds of BBs from Korea that were under 18.


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## terryl965

mango.man said:


> I understand that Master Stoker. By "don" I meant wear, not dan as in rank. My comment was addressing wayofhandandfoot's comment that in Korea people are not allowed to don / wear a black belt until they are 18 and I was just commenting that I have seen dozens if not hundreds of BBs from Korea that were under 18.


 

My mistake and I have seen them in korea wear them as well under the age of 18 so I do not understand that statement. Sorry about the mix up


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## jim777

Kacey said:


> To get back to the original question, I personally have a real problem with awarding black belts to kids who still need to hold a parent's hand to walk across the parking lot.


 
You are soooo getting e-rep for that! :lol: What a great line....

jim


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## wayofhandandfoot

yeah that's true i've seen jr bb's from korea as well. This is something that he told me. I've also seen in korea kids wearing red/black belts with a red black collar. I think that he was referring to these.


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## Last Fearner

I do not accept students until they are at least five, thus to reach a Black Belt at age five with me is not going to happen. This was touched on before. It takes an adult at least 3 years to legitimately reach Black Belt. It should take children longer in almost every case. A five year old would have to start training at age one or even two. What kind of training is this - - Black Belt training? My sons have been receiving some exposure to training since they were born. One did a perfect roundhouse at age 1. I did not enroll them until they were almost five. My twins are eight now and are purple belts. What is the rush? So many people over the years, in various Martial Art systems, wanted to hold the record with the "world's youngest Black Belt," but are they really qualified?

I don't know what everyone is doing in Korea, but when I was there in '96, I did not see one Taekwondo student under age 15 who wore a solid Black Belt. Every single one that I saw had the half red & black poom belt and collar. When the Korean Jr. Eagle team (younger version of the Korean Tiger Demo team) toured the U.S. in 1995, they worked out at both of my Dojang and demonstrated at a couple of local venues with us. All of them wore the poom belt and collar.  If Koreans have started to change this in recent times, then it is because of the western influence, which I believe would be a shame!

A child is not fully mentally or physically matured. In the U.S. (and most places) they can not vote, drive cars, drink alcohol, be emancipated, join the military, work in factories, get married, etc., etc. A child who passes the physical requirements of each of the color belt grades (geup) usually does so with some consideration for their age. They are not held to the exact same standards and requirements of adults. Over my career, I have seen some children (9 - 12 years old) who were phenomenal, but they were the exceptions, and still, they could not match with most adults of the same rank.

The proper designation for a child under the age of 15 who completes the geup curriculum is a "Poom." This is a jr. rank, and is "similar" to what an adult Black Belt Dan rank represents as far as the stage of training, but is not equal to a Dan. Some organizations will print the word "Dan" on their certificate. I do not believe the Kukkiwon does. They might be allowed, by their instructor, to wear a solid black belt, but their KKW certificate should state that it is a Poom (Junior Black Belt).

Even if other instructors let the "poom certified" child wear a solid Black Belt, I never will. A child is a poom and wears the proper insignia, and my students know this. They also know what they might be sacrificing in quality of instruction if they choose to go to another school simply because that instructor will let them wear the Black Belt. If an instructor provides quality teaching and lets them wear the Black Belt, then good for them, but I won't do it. :mst: 

Personally, I believe the Kukkiwon age limits are too lax. In particular, I do not like the notion that a 3rd or 4th level Poom may transfer rank comparable to a 3rd or 4th Dan at such a young age (even age 16 to 21). I don't mind that children who have been 1st poom for a while could advance to a senior grade of 2nd or 3rd Poom, but I do not consider this the same as what is required between the Dan ranks. I would prefer that higher poom must first test for the 1st Dan, and then are simply allowed to test for a 2nd or 3rd Dan at shorter intervals than those who were not poom as a child.


What do you all think about that?
CM D.J. Eisenhart


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## terryl965

Last Fearner you are correct certificate for anyone under the age of 15 read poom rank and not dan rank also in Korea now some org. let there students wear a solid BB, still do not know why but they do. At my school I opted for the solid BB but every single parent and child knows it is a junior BB and at age 15 we can send off paperwork to change it over to a dan ranking.


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## allboyz

My son is 13 years old (will be 14 soon). He started taking TKD when he was 5 years old.  He became a black belt (now I know it is actually a poom..we were never told that) when he was one month shy of his 8th birthday. So it took him about 3 years to obtain his black belt.  Over the years his focus on TKD has changed but he is absolutely dedicated to martial arts. When he was younger he was more into the competitions. He went to junior olympics once. He was on demontration teams. He still goes to competitions every once in a while but he is more focused on the actual art now. He enjoys helping the younger kids in class. His younger brother recently started taking TKD so he is helping him out too. He earned his 2nd poom in 2005. However, we moved so now he has to essentially start over. It will take him another 2 1/2 years to be able to test for 3rd degree at his new school. It might work out though because once he tests he will actually be testing for his third degree and not another poom.  In the past he has always said he would love to teach TKD when he is older. He is also a very talented musician so he is unsure of his future. However, he does believe that TKD will always be a part of his life. If he misses his workouts he said he just does not feel right.   Anyway, I do think 5 is a bit young for a black belt. However, I do think children can be as dedicated as an older person. We never pushed my son to continue with TKD. He continued because he absolutely loves it. I'm so happy that we decided out of the blue to put him in TKD years ago because of disipline issues. It has truly helped him become a wonderful, disiplined person.


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## IcemanSK

Welcome to MT, allboyz. You should go to our "
Meet & Greet" section & introduce yourself formally. 

I'm glad your son has had a good experience in TKD. The thing that a lot of us here are lamenting about is that so many kids are not well trained & yet are BB's because their folks check cleared. It doesn't seem as though that was an issue for you.


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## Cirdan

I like one of the two following definitions. Guess which one.

Black Belt (1): A piece of cloth a five year old can earn the right to wear in two years.

Black Belt (2): Someone who knows the basics of a fighting system and with a level of fighting spirit.

Hint: it is not this: 






(breaking my soap box into pieces and watching it burn on the fireplace)


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## diamondbar1971

I agree with you 100%......anyone can learn forms......but for all of these
instructors that think a five year old black belt is a black belt,,,,then i suggest that they teach their own 5 year old, give him/her a black belt, 
then drop them off downtown LA and see how it goes.....get real people,
they are kids, and kids are just that, kids.......


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## stone_dragone

No.


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## jim777

My six year old just started, and he definitely has the fire (at the moment) to go as far as he legs will take him. We have a new visitng Master who is absolutely phenomenal, and at age 30 he's been in TKD for 25 years. I'd love to see my son do something similar, but I don't have to worry too much about it now. At the fastest pace available to him he'd be 11 before he could test for black, and that's too far away to really worry about now. I also have 8, 9 and 12 year old Orange belts, but honestly they don't have the drive required to get to 2nd Dan at the moment.
But we'll see.


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## Balrog

Calhoun said:


> Seen an Ad and had kids 5 yr old with Black Belts.
> I don't know what kind of training one gets or teaches a 5 yr old to be black belt.
> But I do see how that differs people to not want to join any martial arts class/school, etc.
> This is plain and simple black belt factory. I hear "ATA" schools have some kind of annual dues for ones to keep their Black Belt rating (whether you continue to practice or not) and some schools a person can become blackbelt in 1-1/2 years.
> Since I go to class and spend alot of money for what I do these types of schools. really gets to me. I'll probably will be black belt canidate when I'm 49,(purple, for awhile now by my choice)
> There's alot of forms to remember, besides all the other basics stance,kicks, etc.
> I myself at this point really do not have Black Belt goal date set, I just keep doing it in case I need to use and keeps me in shape.
> 
> Maybe someone can tell me what it took for a 5 yr old get get a 1 dan black belt?


 
Don't get me started on this.  It's a hot button issue with me.

The problem with ATA's Tiny Tigers program is that they award rank to the little weezers.  IMNSHO, kids in that program should officially stay as White Belts until they are old enough to move into the regular classes.  At that time, they would start earning rank, which would put them at 1st Degree at around age 10 or so.  That is the bare-bones bottom line age for me; I'd like to see an age guideline that sets it at 12, but I don't think that will ever happen.


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## theletch1

As an outsider looking in...is there no differentiation between the black belt that a child earns and the one an adult earns?  Junior black as opposed to the black that an adult would get?  I'm an aikido-ka not a TKDer so this is a legitimate question.  My style does not issue black belts at all to children.


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## Dave Leverich

I think it's just pretty much in name Jeff.
The child poom then tests for adult rank etc, so maybe a 'crossover' test? But yeah it's pretty much saying adult rank/child rank, yet I haven't yet seen any differences that weren't simply semantic.


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## tkdboy81

I personally feel that for a 5yr old to recieve a black belt discredits the arts.  Myself and others have worked hard to earn legitement black belts and to see a five yr old wearing a bb really bothers me because they just can't physically do some of the things requiered to earn the rank.  It's rediculous really.


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## dleeret

I feel really bad for the students and parents of students who earn their blackbelt at such a young age.  A boy in my Cub Scout den recently received his "black belt" at the ripe age of seven.  His parents were so proud that he had worked so hard for two years to earn his belt.  They were confused when my son of the same age said he had been in TKD for three and a half years - since he was four - and had just graduated from the "tyke program" and was now a high white belt (at age 8).  I asked his parents how he did at his test and they said that the instuctor worked them hard for the whole two hour test.  

Later I had to explain to my son why he (my son) was not yet a black belt when his friend was after just two years.  I explained the difference about wearing a blackbelt and being a blackbelt.  I told him I could order him a blackbelt online and put it on him so he could wear a blackbelt.  At first he thought that was a GREAT idea!!  I then said "Son, you can wear that blackbelt but does it mean you ARE a blackbelt?"  It took about a week before he fully grasped it.  We discussed it every day we went to class on the drive over.  Finally he said he wants to earn his blackbelt rather than just wear it.  I figure he will test for his Poome at around age 12.  The other boy and his parents will never know the difference...


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## IcemanSK

Yesterday I went to a belt test for 2 young teens that were testing for 2nd Poom. Both have been training since they were about 4. They were talented, respectful, & carried themselves well. 

When I see that, I'm reminded of what the poom rank is designed to be: A mark of acheivement, not of "time in or money paid."


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## terryl965

IcemanSK said:


> Yesterday I went to a belt test for 2 young teens that were testing for 2nd Poom. Both have been training since they were about 4. They were talented, respectful, & carried themselves well.
> 
> When I see that, I'm reminded of what the poom rank is designed to be: A mark of acheivement, not of "time in or money paid."


 
Iceman some school do it right and then another 10000 miss the boat and pocket the money.


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## YoungMan

It is my goal to start a Tae Kwon Do program for at-risk youth shortly as part of my college internship field work. I have pretty much decided not to teach anyone younger than 12 years old. I just don't think young children would be in a position to handle what I teach. I also don't want the class to degenerate into a babysitting service.


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## SageGhost83

YoungMan said:


> It is my goal to start a Tae Kwon Do program for at-risk youth shortly as part of my college internship field work. I have pretty much decided not to teach anyone younger than 12 years old. I just don't think young children would be in a position to handle what I teach. I also don't want the class to degenerate into a babysitting service.


 
That is a really great idea, and I hope that your program succeeds. I agree with the not teaching anyone younger than 12 years old sentiment. If you teach kids, then parents will just take advantage of you and dump their parental responsibilities on you. Then there is the possibility of them using what they learn on the playground whether playfully or more seriously:ninja:. Taekwondo is a very deep discipline and a large number of adults wouldn't be able to handle what you teach, so anyone under the age of 12 would have very little hope of doing so.


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## YoungMan

This was one of the biggest complaints my Instructor had when he was teaching the kids class years ago. Parents would just dump their kids off for an hour and consider it cheap babysitting. He actually advised many parents to withdraw their kids because it was obvious the kids didn't care.
I will never allow what I teach to degenerate into a recreational activity to make 8 year olds happy and give them something to do. Don't get me started on 4 year olds. You start practicing when you're 4 years old, hypothetically get black belt (or junior black belt) at 7 or 8, and then what? What exactly can you do? You can't teach; you really can't compete in major tournaments; you truly won't understand what it is you're doing until maybe teens.
But starting when you're 12, you get black belt by 14-15, right when serious peer pressure starts. By the time you're 18-19, you are probably 2nd Dan, and in a good position to really help out and mature.
I think Instructors who allow very young children to make black belt are looking for money and exposure, neither of which I need (not that badly anyway). I'd rather stick with older kids and know that I'm making a difference.


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## Kacey

I think, YoungMan, that you're veering off the topic of very young black belts into teaching philosophy - I know my response to you did, so I've started another thread here, instead.

To return to the original topic, I think that unless you can truly understand what you're learning, and the implications of using what you've learned, you shouldn't be a black belt - but I've met some very mature tweens and teens, and some very immature adults.  Ultimately, rules need to exist to maintain the standards of the art, and those rules need to be tempered with the instructor's judgment; some students who meet the age requirements don't have the maturity, and some with the maturity don't meet the age requirements.  Do I think children under 10 or 12 should be black belts?  Not in general - but I do think they can be great students, and work _toward_ their black belts while they learn the skills, and gain the maturity, to _earn_ their black belts.


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## YoungMan

I don't think I did. I stated how I felt about very young black belts and why I felt the way I did. Perhaps in a roundabout way, but explained nonetheless.


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## Kacey

YoungMan said:


> I don't think I did. I stated how I felt about very young black belts and why I felt the way I did. Perhaps in a roundabout way, but explained nonetheless.



As I said, my response _definitely_ veered off, which is why I started another thread.  I see a difference between teaching young children, and awarding black belts to young children; since my response focused more on teaching than rank, I started another thread.

I think the key to being a black belt is maturity, rather than age - but age is more quantifiable than maturity, and easier to make rules about.


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## azmyth

I think I have a bigger problem with kid black belts, who do not know their forms, stances, techniques proficiently. Than the principal of a kid having one. Anyone who can perform their techniques to the proficiency dictated by age and skill level.. deserves his or her rank. However, Its like illogical that a 5 year old has the mental or physical capacity to maintain any of those tasks. In other words, if your a black belt.. it should show. We have a few high rank kids who are probably 9-10... no black belts.. but they are higher than me in rank. This sometimes bothers me.. mainly when they don't know their form that well, or they they just seem to not care about martial arts that much. I also know when running a business, you have to pay the bills. And by ticking off tons of parents, by holding their kid back.. its not really going to help business. But at the same time.. there are other ways to handle it.

IMO age is just a number.. but if you don't understand the concepts, the philosophy, and if you have to be led move by move through every form.. because have no idea what or why your doing it in the first place.. then no, you don't deserve black belt. It just so happens that most of the people who fit this mold are under the age of 12


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## YoungMan

"I also know when running a business, you have to pay the bills. And by ticking off tons of parents, by holding their kid back.. its not really going to help business. But at the same time.. there are other ways to handle it."

This is one reason why I don't recommend teaching professionally: you become a servant to the almighty buck. God forbid you upset parents. There goes your income when they remove their kid from your class. Better to teach on the side and do it the way you feel is right.


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## azmyth

and honestly.. TKD wasn't designed with a business scheme in mind.. it was for fighting, and fighting only.

So, sure if you try to teach a class with the same principles as they had back then, its not gonna go over well. 

I agree though, that you cannot just do everything parents want.. but thats the choice they make when they decide to take it public and teach kids in the first place.


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## arnisador

* A Knuckleballer Is Waiting to Rise*



> Growing up in California as the son of two employees at Folsom State Prison, Zink had always thought his sport was tae kwon do. By age 11, he was teaching classes, and at 12, he was a second-degree black belt. But when he realized he could not earn his third-degree belt until 16, he turned to baseball.


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## StuartA

Not even gonna post reasons against this.. to me, a 5 year old black belt is:

a. A fantasy for the parents ego based on getting lots of £££
b. see A

Stuart


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## Cirdan

I hear they are selling black diapers to Dan ranked todders now...


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## Daniel Sullivan

A five year old black belt.... what?  Did he start at three?  Or maybe two?  There's a federation with competition ranks for 6-8 year old blackbelt students.  Pretty silly.  It would be nice if the organizations would counsel these teachers regarding what a blackbelt is supposed to be, but I guess the cashflow is too much to ignore.  Sad.

Daniel


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## Drac

I am dead set against 5 yr old black belts..


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## ArmorOfGod

YoungMan said:


> But starting when you're 12, you get black belt by 14-15, right when serious peer pressure starts.


 
Wow.  2 years to black belt.  Anyone who thinks this is acceptable would not last in my school or any school I came through.
Two years to me is roughly halfway to black belt and I will put any of my 2-years students against a typical 2-year black belt.

AoG


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## terryl965

Celtic Tiger said:


> A five year old black belt.... what? Did he start at three? Or maybe two? There's a federation with competition ranks for 6-8 year old blackbelt students. Pretty silly. It would be nice if the organizations would counsel these teachers regarding what a blackbelt is supposed to be, but I guess the cashflow is too much to ignore. Sad.
> 
> Daniel


 
Well I inherited a six year old BB and of course he is KKW certified. The problem is he knows nothing and the parent do not want him demoted at all and said they paid alot of money for training for him to get it. I swear some peole have no earthly ideal what a BB stands for anymore.


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## Daniel Sullivan

terryl965 said:


> Well I inherited a six year old BB and of course he is KKW certified. The problem is he knows nothing and the parent do not want him demoted at all and said they paid alot of money for training for him to get it. I swear some peole have no earthly ideal what a BB stands for anymore.


Aint that the truth!  They base it only on what they can see: the money they spent.  They have no concept of the work that goes into what a real blackbelt is.  If the kid can't do the moves, then he or she shouldn't be wearing the belt.  Period.  But hey, they paid _money_, so their kid is _entitled_.  

If they have a problem, they shouldn't complain to you anyway; they should go back and ask the instructor that gave their kid the blackbelt and ask why their kid got a belt and still knows nothing.

Daniel


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## igillman

This situation brings to light a problem with a large certifying organisation. The KKW has to trust that the 4th Dan who signed the kids paperwork is legitimate and truthful regarding the kids abilities (and age).

If, instead of saying if you are 4th Dan or above you can promote someone they were to say that you could only promote someone if you have the KKW "seal of promotion" or whatever you want to call it then they would retain some control by the possibility of being able to remove the "seal of promotion" and not let certain instructors promote people.

If we look at what that instructor (the one who promoted the kid) was doing along with the risks involved we find that they made  a lot of money from these parents and had absolutely no risk to themselves. They will spend the rest of their lives promoting kids whose parents have money because the 4th Dan/ability to promote cannot and will not be taken from them. If they ran the risk of losing the ability to promote people they might have thought twice about it.

No system of certification is perfect (I work in the computer industry and I have met a lot of people with certifications who know nothing) but the risk of losing the "license to promote" might change a few peoples minds.


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## girlbug2

arnisador said:


> * A Knuckleballer Is Waiting to Rise*


 
Sounds like a very talented guy that isn't motivated by things that come so easy to him. And maybe a little spoiled by so much quick success in life .

Just goes to show, the average people work harder and appreciate what they have more.


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## GlassJaw

ArmorOfGod said:


> Wow.  2 years to black belt.  Anyone who thinks this is acceptable would not last in my school or any school I came through.
> Two years to me is roughly halfway to black belt and I will put any of my 2-years students against a typical 2-year black belt.



Likewise.

I could see someone *who is exceptionally gifted and dedicated* being ready in three years (for an adult or even a well-disciplined late teen, but not a child).  In fact, it's not all that uncommon.  Someone who has been training for it 10-15 hours a week for 36 months is quite likely going to be a stronger candidate than one who has put little into it beyond showing up for a 90-minute practice two or three times a week over the course of four years.

But I can't imagine someone (starting from scratch, that is) who's so exceptional that, inside of two years, they have acquired not only the knowledge and proficiency to _gain the black belt_ but also the experiential background to _wear it well_.  (And I'm not talking about knot tying.)

Dan


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## arnisador

ArmorOfGod said:


> 2 years to black belt.  Anyone who thinks this is acceptable would not last in my school or any school I came through.
> Two years to me is roughly halfway to black belt



I agree. In fairness, in some arts it's usual--usually classical Japanese arts that focus on only a single weapon and focus on fencing in some sense with it.


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## YoungMan

Actually, in our organization, two years to black belt is about right. You will have some good students and some not so good. If it takes longer than 2-3 years, the question becomes why did it take you that long to attain black belt?


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## Twin Fist

my school is set up that BB should take about 4 years.


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## StuartA

terryl965 said:


> Well I inherited a six year old BB


 
I nearly did once as well.. theres a story about it at the back of my book! 

Stuart


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## Cirdan

YoungMan said:


> Actually, in our organization, two years to black belt is about right. You will have some good students and some not so good. If it takes longer than 2-3 years, the question becomes why did it take you that long to attain black belt?


 
What does the black belt mean in your organization?

What is required to grade sucessfully?


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## Daniel Sullivan

igillman said:


> This situation brings to light a problem with a large certifying organisation. The KKW has to trust that the 4th Dan who signed the kids paperwork is legitimate and truthful regarding the kids abilities (and age).
> 
> If, instead of saying if you are 4th Dan or above you can promote someone they were to say that you could only promote someone if you have the KKW "seal of promotion" or whatever you want to call it then they would retain some control by the possibility of being able to remove the "seal of promotion" and not let certain instructors promote people.
> 
> If we look at what that instructor (the one who promoted the kid) was doing along with the risks involved we find that they made a lot of money from these parents and had absolutely no risk to themselves. They will spend the rest of their lives promoting kids whose parents have money because the 4th Dan/ability to promote cannot and will not be taken from them. If they ran the risk of losing the ability to promote people they might have thought twice about it.
> 
> No system of certification is perfect (I work in the computer industry and I have met a lot of people with certifications who know nothing) but the risk of losing the "license to promote" might change a few peoples minds.


I think that this is a fantastic idea.  Businesses, particularly small businesses, that know that they can lose their license for pulling shenannigans will often simply not do so; unless you're a multi-million dollar corporation, it is prohibatively expensive to pull them and loss of license means you're pretty much done.  While there will always be those businesses, large and small, that choose not to operate above board, the public at large is fairly well protected and has channels for recourse.

An instructor who cannot promote within an organization may simply go independent and continue promoting blackbelts, but it will be without having the Organization's backing.  Now, if the organization _published_ a list of certified instructors with promotion credentials, that would get the word out to the schools around the area.  Then there would be a means for people to know who is and is _not_ really on the up and up, at least within that organization.

Daniel


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## YoungMan

Cirdan said:


> What does the black belt mean in your organization?
> 
> What is required to grade sucessfully?


 
In our organization, the black belt means you have mastered a level of basics suitable for your age and physical condition. A young man of 22 in good physical shape will be graded differently than a 45 year old woman who is a little overweight.
You are required to demonstrate Palgwe Chi and Pal, free fight three times against three different opponents, and do at least one breaking technique.
In all three areas, your balance, fluidity, grace, speed, and power are all being observed and graded.
During forms, you must show that your techniques would be effective (rather than just sticking your limbs out) as you do it; during free fighting, you must show that you can contact enough to knock someone back with control; during breaking, if you don't break you don't pass. And it must be done with good form.
Keep in mind, as an instructor, you only 2-3 years to get someone to this level. If you stucannot do this, it is as much a reflection on you as them.


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## Daniel Sullivan

YoungMan said:


> Keep in mind, as an instructor, you only 2-3 years to get someone to this level. If you stucannot do this, it is as much a reflection on you as them.


While I see where your coming from, I would disagree with this, at least as a generalization, though it may be true in some cases.  

Four years to first dan may net a first dan that is more mature, with better technique, and with a better understanding of the art.  In fact, people that I know who got their blackbelts back in the eighties took longer than two or three years and all of them were very, very good.  

Some people can zing through in one and a half to two years with solid daily training and be dan level competent in their technique, but not most.  Realistically, most people should take at _least_ three years.  The emphasis on gettng a blackbelt in two years, in my opinion, is a result of commercialization of the art.  A potential customer is much more likely to commit to a two year course of study to get a blackbelt, seeing three years or more as more than they can really handle.  Plus, most students quit after blackbelt anyway, so they want to get their belt and be done with it.  

This is true even of students who are competent; after two years, unless the student intends a carreer in MA or is simply a lifer, they can't justify continued time spent.  Unfortunately, these are perishable skills; kind of like the Spanish I took for three years in high school and can't remember hardly any of.  

Martial arts, taught correctly, is alien to most of the American public.  Just changing the mindset of most people is time consuming.  I'd venture that fewer than ten percent of taekwondo students practice outside of class or go to class more than two times a week.  On twice a week of class with little to no practice outside of class, two years is really not sufficient, in my opinion.

Daniel


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## jim777

YoungMan said:


> ...A young man of 22 in good physical shape will be graded differently than a 45 year old woman who is a little overweight....



Is the test actually different for the two, or just the weighting of the grade? In our school, everyone takes the exact same BB test, whether you're 16 or 60, and is graded the same as well.


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## Windsinger

As I read this thread, I keep thinking about a trip my Sabum Nym took to Poland. He was telling us how the TKD school he visited there was quite strict about testing. No more than twice a year. So, from white to black, you're looking a minimum of 5 years. One of the problems, I guess, with North America's go-go-go, I-want-it-now mentality.


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## StuartA

*The Making of a Black Belt*
*It is good to have an end to journey towards,*
*but it is the journey that matters in the end*
*- Ursula K. Le Guin*​ 
Apart from the main bulk of the book, there were a few sections at the end that were mainly my views on things and the one here is one that I received a lot of contact about, praising it for its honest view of things, so as its something many feel strongly about, I thought it appropriate to relay it here as it concerns all of us!

When a student walks into a dojang they have this vision in their head, perhaps attained through television or films, or from the legendary stories of the masters, recited by their friends or read in books but no matter where it comes from, it is still the same  the dream of mastery of a martial art and a Mcdojang instructor steals these dreams! 

Parents bring their children to martial art classes for a myriad of reason, not least confidence and the same eventual dreams as the adults  maybe its a parents wishful thinking, but there is no reason their children cannot grow up and mature into competent and capable martial artists. The problem is parents have no bench mark as they often start their children in the first martial art school they come across as they believe that every black belt is a master, every black belt is a great instructor and every black belt will guide and shape their child into a competent and capable martial artists  only someone who has been round the block or dared to venture further afield than their own school knows this isnt the case! My advice to parents these days, unfortunately, is to shop around and to do a lot of shopping!

I had a parent of a student call me once, saying she was unhappy with her present school as the instructor was charging more and more each time. He changed the uniforms every six months, forcing the students to buy the new ones and sold them equipment when they joined that they had never used! The final straw for this parent was the instructor trying to make her sign a new three year contract into the masters club for her son, who was six years old! Incidentally, this club costs £600 per year more than the Black belt club, which was £600 a year more than the non-black belt club members paid! I felt a little sorry for the parent, knowing she had been sold by the sales hype, so I invited her down to the school as she wanted and asked her what grade her son was  to which she replied hes a black belt! I was shocked, but nevertheless intrigued as to what qualities a six year old black belt would have. The parent was most concerned with her six year old retaining his grade and I had to bite my lip!

The parent turned up and this young black belt bounded into my class full of confidence, but as the class started the warm-up session he seemed concerned, looking around for his mother, eventually, before we had even finished this section he started to cry as he was completely out of his depth and this was just the warm up. After sobbing for a bit, he went to his mum for a cuddle and I asked her what he did to achieve his black belt, she said he had to do some combinations, punch some pads and show some kicks. I ask what patterns he learnt and she asked what was a pattern! Upon explaining, she said he hadnt learn any as it wasnt required for his age! Suffice to say, he never returned to my school. His former club had indeed given him something, they gave him a black belt he didnt earn, that didnt have any worth except to his parents pride (however misplaced it was), but worst of all they gave him bucket loads of false confidence that was taken away the minute he stepped out of that school into the real world of martial arts!

This is not an isolated case as many other parents have been sold similar things, with these unscrupulous instructors pandering to the parents and students egos, by waving a black belt in front of them and letting them know just how achievable it is, as long as they pay the right price! Adults have been fooled in the same way as well, though they are more capable of handling the fact that they have been sold a dud and usually blame themselves for not doing their research properly in the first place and some, even if not all, are resolute about learning proper martial arts, so are content to start over. These students I hold in the highest regard, it is not an easy thing to admit and even harder to do  these students have the right spirit, one that can really take them where they want to go! 

Students reasons for starting a martial art and then sticking with it can change over time and are varied, but every student, who attains the lofty rank of black belts wishes and hopes, at least initially, to be worthy of the grade, after all the clothes maketh the man and so in Taekwon-do, the belt maketh the student so the worth of that belt needs to be maintained.

Once a black belt held much worth, simply because it was only obtainable with diligence and hard training. Now it is seen as obtainable by anyone, even with little effort, but more so as part of the schools ethos or part of their advertising campaign as long as they turn up and pay their money! A black belt should never be guaranteed, it is a celebration of blood, sweat and tears, of over coming many obstacles and a celebration of passing into the next phase of Taekwon-do training. The fork in a tough hard road that is meant to represent the wearer being Impervious to darkness and fear` - a road that many are simply not capable of travelling (well actually they are, but its a damn hard trek)! Its worth has been devalued.

Though some argue that Taekwon-do places a different emphasis on what a black belt means, as do some other arts, but one only has to think back to when they began Taekwon-do and think what a black belt seemed to them, whether correct or not this is actually what it should mean (or at least pretty close to it). I sincerely doubt that any beginner has thought of a black belt grade as lacking in knowledge or skills, or not being able the perform black belty type things! I guess the essence is that in my mind at least, a black belt should have three attributes:

1_. Knowledge in the areas related to the dan grade and skills at a certain level in applying that knowledge_
_2. A certain mental toughness fostered from many years of hard training_
_3. The ability to hang with others of equal grade. By that I mean at all areas they should be roughly equal. There will always be students who can break more than others, or spar faster etc. But no black belt should look way out of their depth in any areas next to a fellow dan grade._

All three of these areas have been eroded over time, as clubs, instructors and associations give away black belts to one and all, claiming to make the black belt more accessible or simply ignoring what it originally represented to them, but its really an exercise of increasing numbers or not losing students income and the one who loses in the end, is actually the student who placed their faith and hope in you to begin with!

A black belts worth shouldnt be bought but should be affordable by all, affordable by way of hard work, sweat, tears and perhaps even a little blood on occasion  as these are the traits and trials of hard endeavours and nothing of any value comes easy. By making the road to black belt, a hard though not impossible journey, we can retain its value and its worth  though I feel it may be a little too late for that, but as Gandhi once said _You must be the change you wish to see in the world so I for one will keep on keeping on!_

Within Taekwon-do some feel that the black belt is simply a representation of someone who has a good grasp of the basics of our art and even though what actually represents the basics is debateable, some do not even seem to have done that in order to gain the right to wear the black belt around their waist. But even then, saying it simply represents the basics doesnt relate to the meaning of black belt in Taekwon-do, which says the wearer should be impervious to darkness and fear  how many six year olds feel like that? In my mind, simply having a grasp of the basics doesnt correlate to being impervious to darkness and fear, which takes me back to the aforementioned 3 attributes that should make a black belt! And that to me is just the minimum requirements in my mind, to me there is more to being a black belt than just that, but thats a whole new discussion!

*Reproduced from the book Chang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul: Real Applications To The ITF Patterns ​**Copyright © 2006/7 Stuart Paul Anslow*
*Book available via Amazon.co.uk*​


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## Cirdan

YoungMan said:


> Keep in mind, as an instructor, you only 2-3 years to get someone to this level. If you stucannot do this, it is as much a reflection on you as them.


 
You are on a narrow path. Slow down and it will be wider.


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## YoungMan

The tests are the same for everyone, but weighted differently for different people. You certainly cannot expect a 45 year old woman to perform at the same level as a 22 year old athletic male.
I do agree with the idea that martial arts is a journey. However, I also believe that if students have to wait 5 years or more to test for black belt, the motivation to improve themselves dramatically decreases. Every organization tests for higher rank. However, if you know that a testing will take place within 2-3 months, chances are you will put more time and energy into mastering the techniques and forms to be ready for testing. If testings are every 8-9 months, there is no sense of urgency and less motivation to master the techniques since you have to wait 9 months.
In this sense, a Taekwondo instructor and a school teacher are similar. Both operate under a timeframe, so to speak, and if the student isn't learning eventually it comes down to how is he being taught?


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## terryl965

Youngman we all have a different approach to our training, I know for me I knew I would be a lifer without a question some forty years later, I still feel the same way. If it works for you and your student and they are happy keep doing it your way. No single person has a right to downplay what you are doing and how it is done. I know I will always do certain things that other just do not feel it is right. The soul purpose of this thread was  about 5 years old BB and why would people do that and I commend you for stating everything else about the way you test and all.
Keep doing everything and keep thos efolks involoved in TKD.


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## Daniel Sullivan

YoungMan said:


> In this sense, a Taekwondo instructor and a school teacher are similar. Both operate under a timeframe, so to speak, and if the student isn't learning eventually it comes down to how is he being taught?


I kind of agree with you, but I disagree regarding the firm timeline, and the analogy, while appropriate, is somewhat flawed.  

The equivalent to a blackbelt in school is a high school diploma, for which the school system takes thirteen years to grant (K through 12).  Just counting high school, it is four years, which is about reasonable for a solid blackbelt.  In fact when I started out, time to black belt averaged about just that; four years.  And those guys could _really_ fight!

Also consider that a schoolteacher has a huge advantage that a martial arts instructor does not have: a captive audience, required by law to sit in the classroom five days a week.  It is easy to establish a firm timeline when you have enforced attendence.

Please note that I am _not_ saying that two year blackbelt is somehow not really a black belt.  I would never presume to judge the skill of another based upon anything but seeing them in action.  I _am_ saying that I don't believe that the average American MA student puts in enough time training to be solid after only two years without prior experience in a similar MA.  

I do agree that more frequent tests maintain interest for a student.  The flip side is that more frequent tests have bloated the belts from like four or five to like twelve at most schools, my own included.  

But then what is a student going to class for?  Belts or knowledge and skill?  If the former, then two years is about all that you can hold the student's attention for.  If the latter, then the belt is unimportant.  I for one don't want people to be impressed at when they see me in uniform with my black belt; I want them to be impressed when they see me fight in street clothes.  The only time they should be impressed with my _belt_ is when it is used as a weapon.

Daniel


----------



## jim777

YoungMan said:


> The tests are the same for everyone, but weighted differently for different people. You certainly cannot expect a 45 year old woman to perform at the same level as a 22 year old athletic male.



I agree that you cannot expect them to perform at the same level (or really expect any two different people to perform at identical levels), but even while performing at different levels they should both be expected to clear identical hurdles, and pass identical tests. For example, if your test requires 3 breaks, and the 22 year old can do 10, good for him! But even if the 45 year old can only do 3, they both pass because they've cleared identical hurdles, not because one performs at a higher level. My problem would be if the test was 3 breaks for 20 somethings, and 2 for fortysomething soccer moms. The BB test should be the same for all BB candidates in my opinion, and (to bring it back to the thread) if a 5 year old or 10 year can't pass it, too bad.


----------



## StuartA

YoungMan said:


> However, I also believe that if students have to wait 5 years or more to test for black belt, the motivation to improve themselves dramatically decreases.


 
Actually, I feel it is the opposite.. I feel a decent slog tempers the spirit and determination, whilst allows a decent amount of skill level increasment. The fact that many quit after BB is testament to them thinking they have "_Got There_!" not that its just the first "_Big Step_" in a longer journey.. the BB is a pivotal point in many areas and thus it should be considerably hard to achieve, though not unachieveable for those that invest the correct time and effort to do so!

2 years in my schools means 3rd Kup maximum for someone who is training and grading on a very regular basis! Mosts BBs in my school take around 6 years and thats very harding training adult students not kids (who would take consideribly longer).

Stuart


----------



## Kacey

I started to respond to questions about testing, and decided my response was off the original topic of 5 year old black belts - so I've started a new thread instead:  The purpose and value of testing

We now return you to your original topic, already in progress.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

jim777 said:


> I agree that you cannot expect them to perform at the same level (or really expect any two different people to perform at identical levels), but even while performing at different levels they should both be expected to clear identical hurdles, and pass identical tests. For example, if your test requires 3 breaks, and the 22 year old can do 10, good for him! But even if the 45 year old can only do 3, they both pass because they've cleared identical hurdles, not because one performs at a higher level. My problem would be if the test was 3 breaks for 20 somethings, and 2 for fortysomething soccer moms. The BB test should be the same for all BB candidates in my opinion, and (to bring it back to the thread) if a 5 year old or 10 year can't pass it, too bad.


I'm completely with you on this one, Jim.  The first dan test that I took for kendo is one that a ten year old would never have been able to pass.  The taekwondo blackbelt tests that I watched at my old school were such that eighteen year olds were seriously challenged and a twelve to fourteen year old would never have been able to pass, let alone an five to ten year old.  I'd go so far as to say that putting a five year old through that test would be criminal!

Daniel


----------



## jim777

Kacey said:


> To get back to the original question, I personally have a real problem with awarding black belts to kids who still need to hold a parent's hand to walk across the parking lot.



18 months old and still the best quote of the thread


----------



## terryl965

Originally Posted by *YoungMan* 

 
_However, I also believe that if students have to wait 5 years or more to test for black belt, the motivation to improve themselves dramatically decreases._

_Well then this explains why so many of my students leave, they can get a BB in 18 months down the street. With me it is between 4-6 years, *damm Hippies.*_


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

terryl965 said:


> Originally Posted by *YoungMan*
> 
> 
> _However, I also believe that if students have to wait 5 years or more to test for black belt, the motivation to improve themselves dramatically decreases._
> 
> _Well then this explains why so many of my students leave, they can get a BB in 18 months down the street. With me it is between 4-6 years, *damm Hippies.*_


And I'd be willing to bet that not one of those eighteen month blackbelts could pass the same test that your blackbelts take.

Daniel


----------



## mango.man

Celtic Tiger said:


> The taekwondo blackbelt tests that I watched at my old school were such that eighteen year olds were seriously challenged and a twelve to fourteen year old would never have been able to pass, let alone an five to ten year old. I'd go so far as to say that putting a five year old through that test would be criminal!
> 
> Daniel


 
That sounds pretty intense, can you share the details?


----------



## terryl965

Celtic Tiger said:


> And I'd be willing to bet that not one of those eighteen month blackbelts could pass the same test that your blackbelts take.
> 
> Daniel


 
Absolutely notthey are paper BB and that is all.


----------



## StuartA

Celtic Tiger said:


> I'm completely with you on this one, Jim. The first dan test that I took for kendo is one that a ten year old would never have been able to pass. The taekwondo blackbelt tests that I watched at my old school were such that eighteen year olds were seriously challenged and a twelve to fourteen year old would never have been able to pass, let alone an five to ten year old. I'd go so far as to say that putting a five year old through that test would be criminal!
> 
> Daniel


 
Isnt that the whole reasoning why a 5 year old shouldnt be a BB!!

Stuart


----------



## YoungMan

But as always, I've seen people test for 1st Dan who I would never pass, and people test for 1st Dan after 2-3 years training who quite good. Think of it like military basic training. You get a certain time frame to prove yourself worthy of earning black belt. You get 8 weeks (I think) to prove you deserve to advance in the military. If basic training had no time limit, there'd be no motivation to pass. Undoubtably Taekwondo's military background (for Chung Do Kwan anyway) influenced this way of thinking.
And keep in mind, all 1st Dan testing is is a validation of your ability to do basics. You're not expected to be an expert.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

StuartA said:


> Isnt that the whole reasoning why a 5 year old shouldnt be a BB!!
> 
> Stuart


Absolutely.  And I do not think that that was, by any means, the toughest blackbelt test out there either.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

mango.man said:


> That sounds pretty intense, can you share the details?


For one, the test was long, over three hours, though I understand that some schools first dan grading is four or more.  The testees were required to write an essay.  Not a couple of paragraphs, but an honest to goodness essay on taekwondo.  The physical portion of the test involved intese warmups; 100 push ups, 100 crunches, squats (don't remember how many, but it wasn't 100), jumping jacks, plus gobs of stretching.  The pushups had to be correct, the crunches had to be actual crunches; not rocking back and forth with their legs up like a lot of five to ten year olds try to get away with, and the squats had to be done with the student's back reasonably straight.

Just on the basis of the warmups alone, no five to ten year old that I have seen would be able to pass, and that is just the warm up.  You weren't graded on the warmup, but you were expected to do it all and do it correctly and cleanly.

All eight forms had to be done correctly, with power, and cleanly.  Small details were noted and students were dinged if their fine detail was less than expected.

All techniques were gone over, and once again, had to be done correctly and cleanly, with power and control.  Two step sparring, combinations of kicks, blocks, and punches were also part of this.

Lastly, the students had to do 300 punches and 500 kicks; 50 right side kicks, 50 left, 50 each of straight axe kicks, 50 in to out and 50 out to in, 50 each left and right side kicks, 50 each left and right front kicks, and 50 roundhouse kicks, alternating left to right.

After that was breaking.  Each student had to break multiple boards, culminating in a triple board break.

Lastly, each testee had to spar two minutes each with four different blackbelt students with no rest in between.  This was not relaxed sparring, but 'you're in the olympics and the gold for the US is riding on your shoulders' sparring.  We were not a WTF school and wore headgear, gloves, insteps and cups for the gents.

Not everyone passed first time out.  It was a tough test, but I have heard of tougher ones.  Personally, I don't think that it needs to be any tougher than this, but I know that there are schools that have four hour long tests that are more challenging.  

My kumdo Ildan test was similarly long and physically demanding.  We had to do a one page essay, rather light in my opinion, but we had to read it aloud.  Warmups were pyramids (10 each jumping jacks, pushups, situps, then 9, then 8, etc.), stretching.  

That was followed by demonstrating each and every technique, both individually and in combinations, two step sparring, Yong Geum (Ji Geiko if you're kendo as opposed to kumdo), which is nine head shots and nine blocks moving forward and back with different partners, each student required to do offense then defense with each partner.  Each strike had to have a loud ki-op and a strong stomp.  Each strike had to be a correctly executed, full head shot, not a quick snap.

From here, the students had to d san dan sae (I think I spelled it right); 100 rapid steps each of muh-ri (head), left right alternating muh-ri (wrist), son mok, and left right alternating huh-ri (waist).

After all that, we were required to do our eight geub rank hyung.  This had to be correct, precise, and with attention to detail.  The fact that we were tired from the previous portions of the test did not matter.

The last portion was sparring.  We had to spar for five minutes straight, no break in between (well, 15 seconds or so) five opponents; two high colored belts; red and black tip, then two blackbelt students, and then Master Choi, a 5th dan kumdoin.  Once again, this was not easygoing sparring.  If you've ever worn a kumdo hogu and a kumdo dobok, then you know that it is not as light as the taekwondo hogu nor as cool as the taekwondo dobok.  

One student in my grading was benched by Grandmaster; we were afraid that he was having a heart attack, and while he wasn't, he probably would have if he had continued.  

When my older son took the same kumdo test, four of his friends came, all of whom take some martial art, one of whom is a blackbelt.  All of them said that the test was "insane" and the one blackbelt said that none of the blackbelts, kids or adults, at his school could have gotten through that test simply due to the intensity and the stamina required. 

Yes, I would question the sanity and fitness of any parent who would put a school age child though either of those tests.  Any instructor who would do so probably should not be working with young kids.

Daniel


----------



## Baby_Huey

My school doesn't even take students unless they are that old. I've been practicing TKD for over 18 months and I'm just now a brown belt third temporary.   It will be at least another 18 months before I get a chance to look at testing for BB.  My instructor only allows those who see feels are are to test to test. I've been told stories about how the belt ranks were changed because once you became a brown belt then as you passed each test you would get a piece of black electrical tape added to your brown belt after 6 pieces you tested for tempoary black (Red on top of Black) after another 6 months you could go for first dan but you couldn't go if you are 16.  The age is the same but now we have three different brown belt levels and three different red belt levels because people got upset that little Johnny was only getting a hand shake.  We do test every 2 months (use to be 3) but you only test when you think you are ready and the instructor approves.  I personally have pulled myself from a test because i knew I wasn't ready.


----------



## Twin Fist

said it before and i will say it again, the idea of doing pushups on a belt test is as odd to me as a 3 dollar bill..............

and only 4 fights? 

I had 25, including 2 on 1's and a 3 on 1, all higher ranked black belts.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Frankly, I agree regarding pushups at testings, but I've been at three schools that have the testees do them as part of the warmup for the test.  But I'm not the man in charge.

Daniel


----------



## Tames D

A 5 year old Black Belt? *LOL* !

A buddy of mine I haven't seen in a long time (he has no Martial Arts experience himself) told me proudly that his 8 year old son will be testing for his Black Belt in August. He told me this despite knowing my feelings on the subject. Hearing this I *LOL* and told him I'm happy for them.

I already told my two boys (7 and 9, both currently orange belts in Kenpo) that if they stay with it and continue to work hard they can have their Black Belts on their 18th birthdays. 

Yeah, I know my attitude sucks...


----------



## arnisador

Celtic Tiger said:


> Frankly, I agree regarding pushups at testings, but I've been at three schools that have the testees do them as part of the warmup for the test.



It may be to simulate a situation in which they're stressed/tired, in which case I understand; otherwise, no, I don't get it.


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## YoungMan

Testing should consist of the techniques and applications found in your organization's curriculum. Warming up is up to you. You only have a limited amount of time anyway. Why waste it having students show pushups? I know what a pushup looks like.


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## Gizmo

Windsinger said:


> As I read this thread, I keep thinking about a trip my Sabum Nym took to Poland. He was telling us how the TKD school he visited there was quite strict about testing. No more than twice a year. So, from white to black, you're looking a minimum of 5 years.



Sadly, things start to change here as well, and there are some instructors concerned more with having high grades than high level of skill among their students. Generally speaking, however, around 5 years is considered a minimum for 1st Dan. Two of my students tested for 1st Dans this year after 7 and 8 years of training, respectively.

Most people here are rather surprised to hear that it's possible to make a BB in two years... and the youngest TKD 1st Dans/Pooms I saw here were around 10-11 years old, which I personally think is still too early.


----------



## faerie2

While I think 5 is a little young, we have a girl at our dojang who reached junior BB (poom) at 6. She was amazing, knew all of her forms beautifully, and could even break with ease even though she is tiny. I believe she started at 3.

As far as not knowing poomse  at 3 years old, it depends on the child. My daughter is 3 and earned her yellow belt after about 6 months (she goes about 4 days/week). She certainly has her 'off' days, she drives her instructors crazy, but knows her poomse 1, several different kicks (not so great with the self defense) and other dojang-specific things that they require (school rules, etc.). I wouldn't have a problem with our Grandmaster giving her a BB at 6 if she continues the way she is going. 

5 years old? Possible, but quite the exception.


----------



## terryl965

faerie2 said:


> While I think 5 is a little young, we have a girl at our dojang who reached junior BB (poom) at 6. She was amazing, knew all of her forms beautifully, and could even break with ease even though she is tiny. I believe she started at 3.
> 
> As far as not knowing poomse at 3 years old, it depends on the child. My daughter is 3 and earned her yellow belt after about 6 months (she goes about 4 days/week). She certainly has her 'off' days, she drives her instructors crazy, but knows her poomse 1, several different kicks (not so great with the self defense) and other dojang-specific things that they require (school rules, etc.). I wouldn't have a problem with our Grandmaster giving her a BB at 6 if she continues the way she is going.
> 
> 5 years old? Possible, but quite the exception.


 

Sorry no dis-respect to you or anybody else five and six and even seven can not possilfly know there poomsae's, maybe the movements but to say they know them is a joke. Can they go over and explain every single tech withen said poomsae? Can they even do all the require kick no maybe roundhouse and some other basics but not quality kicks like a BB should do. I can see 10-15 being pooms Junior BB with having say five years or more of training but a three year old student turning six as a BB no way not even my own sons who have been training with me since they caould walk got there untl they was 8 and that was a poom or junior BB and after training 5-6 days every week.

Thank you and have a great day.


----------



## IcemanSK

faerie2 said:


> While I think 5 is a little young, we have a girl at our dojang who reached junior BB (poom) at 6. She was amazing, knew all of her forms beautifully, and could even break with ease even though she is tiny. I believe she started at 3.
> 
> As far as not knowing poomse at 3 years old, it depends on the child. My daughter is 3 and earned her yellow belt after about 6 months (she goes about 4 days/week). She certainly has her 'off' days, she drives her instructors crazy, but knows her poomse 1, several different kicks (not so great with the self defense) and other dojang-specific things that they require (school rules, etc.). I wouldn't have a problem with our Grandmaster giving her a BB at 6 if she continues the way she is going.
> 
> 5 years old? Possible, but quite the exception.


 

I once had a 4 year old student that could remember any form that you showed her the very first time she saw it. That doesn't mean that she really understood what she was doing. BB means far more than just doing forms.


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## Tez3

I teach a class of children aged 4-7, the Little Dragons, they don't grade and they don't do kata, far too young. What they do is prepare for the childrens class by learning basic moves,understand stranger danger ( they aren't taught they can defend themselves as they can't but are taught age appropriate skills) and how to behave in class, most of all they have fun while improving their co-ordination and motor skills. I know many think children shouldn't start martial arts so young but it's a prep class. I don't believe there should be any stress on them grading or having to learn patterns/katas they can't understand, I won't teach kata without Bunkai not even to children. I could teach them loads of stuff but why? They'd be only going through the motions not understanding it and probably getting very bored. As it is they look forward to going to the big class when they are ready and can start the amazing journey that is martial arts.  
The one thing they do really well and I hate them for it LOL is breakfall. They do it so easily, it's a natural thing for them as is rudimentary Judo. 
I confess... I'm jealous of four year olds!!


----------



## ihraxhunnie

i don't agree with hardly anyone earning a black belt in 2-3 years. i started at 3, got rising young star 2 years in a row and still didn't earn my black belt, honors until i was 10. i look at other 10 year olds with a bb and don't always agree with it either. after that i decided i needed to wait a while to get my 2nd dan - 6 years actually. 

anyways - i hate going to tournaments and seeing the ranking divisions for 6u bb's. i think it is absolutely ridiculous. although a very talented few 6 and 7 year olds can know the moves and maybe excute them beautifully, being a black belt is more than the moves - it's a mental state also and there is no way a kindergartener or first grader can obtain *that*mental state of maturity - otherwise they'd be a seven year old high schooler or buisness manager.

my school has never awarded a bb to anyone under 13 except for me. i find it difficult to see anyone under 10 at all. ever. i find it crazy. extremely.


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## Kwanjang

5 year old black belts?......NOT AT MY SCHOOL!


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## YoungMan

Some of the students on your website looked like they were wearing black belts and they looked pretty young. Were they? And if so how old were they?


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## Miles

I've never had a student earn a poom at age 5.  I generally don't teach anyone any younger than 5.

My current active black belt's average age is 43 and that's because we have a 35 yr old "young-in."


----------



## Kwanjang

YoungMan said:


> Some of the students on your website looked like they were wearing black belts and they looked pretty young. Were they? And if so how old were they?


 
I have had some students that started when they were four and five and stayed with till black. Their total time in grade; 4-5 years They are  10-12 years old and they are smaller than normal. I also beleive these young BB are the exception,(naturaly gifted) they are very dedicated. They've just recently received their BBts. Because of rules of our assoc. their rank will start to stall till they reach a certain age. I will have to post some videos of them doing their stuff! They work hard for me and currently they are not doing other sports--just TKD.


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## celtic_crippler

A "black belt" in what exactly? 

We don't even take students under the age of 8. 

This kind of garbage only cheapens martial arts and is mostly repsonsible for the lack of respect from the general public.


----------



## Kwanjang

celtic_crippler said:


> A "black belt" in what exactly?
> 
> We don't even take students under the age of 8.
> 
> This kind of garbage only cheapens martial arts and is mostly repsonsible for the lack of respect from the general public.


:soapbox:
1. Black belt In their chosen art of TKD of coarse. 2. As a teacher of 18 years, I beleive you are horribly wrong and mis-informed. I have been teaching children at 4, 5, and 6 and 7, sucessfully for many years. (do some kids get it? YES, do Others? NO) To make a such a general statement is,  I beleive, narrow minded and, an insult to those who understand and sucessfully teach MA to children every day.  Starting at the age of 4 kids can be taught basic mechanics and futhermore they learn many other vaulable things. Wouldn't you conceed that "learning" is a part of life that is never ending? Then why not start young! I am no push over--My young students who are blackbelts endured  a rigourous test, with the adults. They were able to demnstrate the curriculum. Can they beat up a grown-up man...of coarse not. ( I can't beleve you would dis-respect kids you have never seen in action! ) I don't know what kind of garbage you are speaking of. And far as the public respect- We do many demonstrations with our young talented Black belts, they are ALWAYS crowd pleasers with their command of thier art.. they got it through "PRACTICE AND COMMITMENT AND BY AN ISTRUCTOR WHO CARES BECAUSE MY REPUTATION IS ON THE LINE". (*some rare kids are just as focused as some of the adults I've instructed over the years*.) If your school doen't take them till 8, No prob. Don't slam on people with your truculent dogmatic view-- who are trying AND making a difference.  You have never witnessed one of my classes, You have know idea what I teach, and the manner and
method in which I teach it. Kids learn other activities all the time. None better than martial arts to prepare and help them with balance, eye-hand coordination,respect, SHOULD I GO ON? or, are you that narrow minded. You are indeed entitled to your opinion. :asian:


----------



## Kwanjang

By the way, we don't have any 5 year old black belts, and never will. However, it is a great age to start! :whip1:


----------



## tko4u

celtic_crippler said:


> A "black belt" in what exactly?
> 
> We don't even take students under the age of 8.
> 
> This kind of garbage only cheapens martial arts and is mostly repsonsible for the lack of respect from the general public.


 
The only lack of respect that I see is in your attitude sir! 

What age you take students is your business, but I have personally trained 5 and 6 year olds who have more focus than some 14 year olds. I think it is GREAT if youths want to start martial arts, I wish I had started then!


----------



## arnisador

tko4u said:


> What age you take students is your business, but I have personally trained 5 and 6 year olds who have more focus than some 14 year olds.



That has to be a _very _rare occurrence.



> I think it is GREAT if youths want to start martial arts, I wish I had started then!



I agree...but giving them black belts at that age is pretty silly, in my opinion.


----------



## tko4u

arnisador said:


> That has to be a _very _rare occurrence.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree...but giving them black belts at that age is pretty silly, in my opinion.


 

No no, not black belts at that age, I have trained with gups at that age. And there are some problem children in class, but for the most part, the kids just want to learn tkd, burn off some energy and kick the wavemaster! I see no problem with having 5-8yr old students.


----------



## Kwanjang

I think some people are missing the point of starting young. Once again, I do not condone the rank of blabk belt at 5, 6, 7,or 8. You have to conceed there are other values and benifits being taught martial arts at a young age. Now its not for every child. Martial art training helps develop the three domains of the brain. The cognitive, the affective, and the phyco-motor. This is the right age to get children envoled in a quality martial arts program. An early start on the Aforementioned developmental areas--can only benifit the child.


----------



## jim777

Kwanjang said:


> I think some people are missing the point of starting young. Once again, I do not condone the rank of black belt at 5, 6, 7,or 8. You have to concede there are other values and benefits being taught martial arts at a young age. Now its not for every child. Martial art training helps develop the three domains of the brain. The cognitive, the affective, and the phyco-motor. This is the right age to get children involved in a quality martial arts program. An early start on the Aforementioned developmental areas--can only benefit the child.



I totally agree. No 6 year old BBs, but I'd like to see a lot more 6 year olds starting. It takes a long time to get to 9th Dan, right? 
Seriously though, I started at 45 and can only hope to get to 3rd Dan someday before I'm too old to go any further. We have a 4th Dan at our school who is 32 or so, who started at 5, and he is not only an outstanding artist but a great teacher due to his life long involvement.
Start 'em young!


----------



## celtic_crippler

Kwanjang said:


> :soapbox:
> 1. Black belt In their chosen art of TKD of coarse. 2. As a teacher of 18 years, I beleive you are horribly wrong and mis-informed. I have been teaching children at 4, 5, and 6 and 7, sucessfully for many years. (do some kids get it? YES, do Others? NO) To make a such a general statement is, I beleive, narrow minded and, an insult to those who understand and sucessfully teach MA to children every day. Starting at the age of 4 kids can be taught basic mechanics and futhermore they learn many other vaulable things. Wouldn't you conceed that "learning" is a part of life that is never ending? Then why not start young! I am no push over--My young students who are blackbelts endured a rigourous test, with the adults. They were able to demnstrate the curriculum. Can they beat up a grown-up man...of coarse not. ( I can't beleve you would dis-respect kids you have never seen in action! ) I don't know what kind of garbage you are speaking of. And far as the public respect- We do many demonstrations with our young talented Black belts, they are ALWAYS crowd pleasers with their command of thier art.. they got it through "PRACTICE AND COMMITMENT AND BY AN ISTRUCTOR WHO CARES BECAUSE MY REPUTATION IS ON THE LINE". (*some rare kids are just as focused as some of the adults I've instructed over the years*.) If your school doen't take them till 8, No prob. Don't slam on people with your truculent dogmatic view-- who are trying AND making a difference. You have never witnessed one of my classes, You have know idea what I teach, and the manner and
> method in which I teach it. Kids learn other activities all the time. None better than martial arts to prepare and help them with balance, eye-hand coordination,respect, SHOULD I GO ON? or, are you that narrow minded. You are indeed entitled to your opinion. :asian:


 


tko4u said:


> The only lack of respect that I see is in your attitude sir!
> 
> What age you take students is your business, but I have personally trained 5 and 6 year olds who have more focus than some 14 year olds. I think it is GREAT if youths want to start martial arts, I wish I had started then!


 


arnisador said:


> That has to be a _very _rare occurrence.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree...but giving them black belts at that age is pretty silly, in my opinion.


 
You should thank me because in most cases we refer all children brought to our school under age 8 to the local TKD school. 

I think you misunderstood me. I never said teaching a child was garbage. They can learn better coordination and mechanics starting out at 4 or 5 by attending a martial arts school. 

What I said was garbage and what cheapens the arts as a whole were 5 year olds running around _with black belts on_. 

Whether you want to admit it or not, awarding little kids black belts drastically contributes to the general publics lack of respect for martial arts. A black belt used to denote the level of expert. And experts...in anything....are _very rarely_ children.


----------



## Traditionalist

I was wondering at what age is your youngest black belt in your schools? And are they junior black belts or what?


----------



## Kwanjang

celtic_crippler said:


> You should thank me because in most cases we refer all children brought to our school under age 8 to the local TKD school.
> 
> I think you misunderstood me. I never said teaching a child was garbage. They can learn better coordination and mechanics starting out at 4 or 5 by attending a martial arts school.
> 
> What I said was garbage and what cheapens the arts as a whole were 5 year olds running around _with black belts on_.
> 
> Whether you want to admit it or not, awarding little kids black belts drastically contributes to the general publics lack of respect for martial arts. A black belt used to denote the level of expert. And experts...in anything....are _very rarely_ children.


 
That , I would agrre with!  Maybe i no understand -Now I see what you are saying. (respectful bow) :asian:


----------



## tko4u

celtic_crippler said:


> You should thank me because in most cases we refer all children brought to our school under age 8 to the local TKD school.
> 
> I think you misunderstood me. I never said teaching a child was garbage. They can learn better coordination and mechanics starting out at 4 or 5 by attending a martial arts school.
> 
> What I said was garbage and what cheapens the arts as a whole were 5 year olds running around _with black belts on_.
> 
> Whether you want to admit it or not, awarding little kids black belts drastically contributes to the general publics lack of respect for martial arts. A black belt used to denote the level of expert. And experts...in anything....are _very rarely_ children.


 
Agreed!


----------



## terryl965

Traditionalist said:


> I was wondering at what age is your youngest black belt in your schools? And are they junior black belts or what?


 
My youngest Junior BB was my son he was going on 9 years old and has been in a Dojaang for 7 of those years. He has learned everything that a child can learn there is no second or up for him when he turns 15 he will be given the same test as my adults and teenagers if he passes then he will be awarded his first Dan rank until then it is about training and having fun competing.


----------



## terryl965

celtic_crippler said:


> You should thank me because in most cases we refer all children brought to our school under age 8 to the local TKD school.
> 
> I think you misunderstood me. I never said teaching a child was garbage. They can learn better coordination and mechanics starting out at 4 or 5 by attending a martial arts school.
> 
> What I said was garbage and what cheapens the arts as a whole were 5 year olds running around _with black belts on_.
> 
> Whether you want to admit it or not, awarding little kids black belts drastically contributes to the general publics lack of respect for martial arts. A black belt used to denote the level of expert. And experts...in anything....are _very rarely_ children.


 

Absolutely agree with the above statement.


----------



## Laurentkd

terryl965 said:


> My youngest Junior BB was my son he was going on 9 years old and has been in a Dojaang for 7 of those years. He has learned everything that a child can learn there is no second or up for him when he turns 15 he will be given the same test as my adults and teenagers if he passes then he will be awarded his first Dan rank until then it is about training and having fun competing.


 

I have a question for you... how do you deal with students who receive their second degree before your son, even though he has been a first degree longer.
For example, we have a 15 year old at our dojang who is a 2nd degree (has been for a year) and he can not test for 3rd until he is 18.  There are students who received their 2nd dan after him, but who will be able to test for 3rd before him due to this age restriction.  At that point those students who were once his juniors will now be his seniors.  I don't really see any way around this, but at the same time it doesn't seem quite right this way either.  What do you think?


----------



## Cirdan

Laurentkd said:


> I have a question for you... how do you deal with students who receive their second degree before your son, even though he has been a first degree longer.
> For example, we have a 15 year old at our dojang who is a 2nd degree (has been for a year) and he can not test for 3rd until he is 18. There are students who received their 2nd dan after him, but who will be able to test for 3rd before him due to this age restriction. At that point those students who were once his juniors will now be his seniors. I don't really see any way around this, but at the same time it doesn't seem quite right this way either. What do you think?


 
I think it is a little strange that you assume all of them will be ready to grade for 3rd dan in the minimum time.. 

People that reach an as advanced level as this tend to progress at different paces anyway and the last thing on their minds should whining about the progress of others.


----------



## terryl965

Laurentkd said:


> I have a question for you... how do you deal with students who receive their second degree before your son, even though he has been a first degree longer.
> For example, we have a 15 year old at our dojang who is a 2nd degree (has been for a year) and he can not test for 3rd until he is 18. There are students who received their 2nd dan after him, but who will be able to test for 3rd before him due to this age restriction. At that point those students who were once his juniors will now be his seniors. I don't really see any way around this, but at the same time it doesn't seem quite right this way either. What do you think?


 

It is easy for me since I run a program for the kids and one for the adults and the material is not the same as Self Defense goes, so I just tell them they where a Junior BB and now they have beeen promoted to the Adult ranks.


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## Laurentkd

Cirdan said:


> I think it is a little strange that you assume all of them will be ready to grade for 3rd dan in the minimum time..
> 
> People that reach an as advanced level as this tend to progress at different paces anyway and the last thing on their minds should whining about the progress of others.


 

Good point. I am probably worrying about something that may never happen!


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## arnisador

Cirdan said:


> I think it is a little strange that you assume all of them will be ready to grade for 3rd dan in the minimum time..
> 
> People that reach an as advanced level as this tend to progress at different paces anyway and the last thing on their minds should whining about the progress of others.



We're talking about 18 year old third degree black belts here. I have problems with calling that "advanced".


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## Sylo

Here's my 2 cents.

I believe in the old saying "age is just a number". Because think about it. There are plenty of people who are up in age, who cannot do some of the same things that the 5 year old can do.

With that being said.. do I believe a 5 year old should be BB? No. I think those who possess the required skills, techniques, and mental capacity of the rank, should be black belts. Everyone has certain "levels" of skill, that will peak and never get any better regardless of training. Someone who is obviously doing their 100% best, and doing everything they are capable of doing, should be able to attain black belt.

The issue is that much of the requirements for being a black belt, would be very hard if not impossible for a 5 year old to achieve. They just don't have the mental capacity or responsibility to be able to handle it. Its not just learning the moves, or memorizing a form. Being a black belt, means  (to me) that you've achieved a level in which you have a firm grasp on all the techniques from white belt ---> black and that you can confidently explain where they would fit into a self defense equation. You not only know how to perform them, but in what situations they would be used in. You have a firm understanding of fight mechanics, and can apply what you have learned to different situations. You should also have the ability to pass on the knowledge to others, at least in a basic sense. Lastly, I believe that you maturity level should encompass your rank. 

I find it hard to believe that there are any 5 year olds that would possess these abilities. The maturity level is just not there. I do not mind there being a JR. Black belt club. But I do not believe that these students should be pushed as if they were true dan ranks. People get the misconception that their 5 year old is on the same level as a 30 year old who has spent the past 4-5 years training. I think thats what bothers people most about it.

For example the other night at class. There 2 kids, probably 8-9... in front of me when we were doing bag drills.. he had the blue belts (me) and the red belts in a line together. The 2 kids were high rank red.. which is one rank before recommended black belt. All they did the entire time was mess with each other (brother and sister) and kept me from training properly. My instructor was busy, due to an abundance of people coming in to sign up, and the parents were watching so I was afraid to get on to them. Although they weren't black belt, they were close enough that BY NOW.. they should have much more respect, especially for those older than them. Their technique was non existant. They might as well have been white belt. I don't blame the instructor though. He'd have to close his doors if he actually ranked these kids at the rate they progress.

I just think there should be an age limit to when you can join a club.. right off the bat..


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## Daniel Sullivan

Well said, Sylo!


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## mango.man

Sylo said:


> Although they weren't black belt, they were close enough that BY NOW.. they should have much more respect, especially for those older than them. Their technique was non existant. They might as well have been white belt. I don't blame the instructor though. *He'd have to close his doors if he actually ranked these kids at the rate they progress.*



And that pretty much sums it all up.  It is all about the almighty $$$ for most, if not all, instructors.


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## Sylo

mango.man said:


> And that pretty much sums it all up. It is all about the almighty $$$ for most, if not all, instructors.


 

Yeah. and while I don't agree with it. I do understand why my instructor does do it. He knows who the "true" students are, and I get top notch instruction regardless. I try not to worry too much about it. Most of them will never remember they even went to TKD years down the road. While I'll be teaching . The general public looks at TKD school almost like a "extended summer camp". Its not something thats supposed to take more than a year or 2 to complete.. regardless of skill level or comprehension. 

The instructors have to make a living. Thats why I don't lump this scenario in with what people consider mcdojos. My instructor doesn't do it because he's trying to scam people out of money. He does it because thats the only way he can stay in business. You have to remember.. there are some really ruthless parents out there, that just won't understand why after a year, their 5 year old is still yellow belt.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Anyone who would put a blackbelt on a five year old is doing both the parent and the child a disservice and is doing a disservice to the school.  That may not be their intent, and perhaps in order to keep their school open, they may feel that they have to, but I find the practice abhorant.

Daniel


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## Sylo

Celtic Tiger said:


> Anyone who would put a blackbelt on a five year old is doing both the parent and the child a disservice and is doing a disservice to the school. That may not be their intent, and perhaps in order to keep their school open, they may feel that they have to, but I find the practice abhorant.
> 
> Daniel


 

Like I said.

I do not agree with it. But I do know that if he didn't do it, I wouldn't have a place to train.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Sylo said:


> Like I said.
> 
> I do not agree with it. But I do know that if he didn't do it, I wouldn't have a place to train.


I hear you.  Thats why I say I find the practice abhorant.  

I try not to judge the schools that do so because I do understand that in order to stay open, many must churn out blackbelts two years from the student's entry into the class, regardless of their age, or the customers will just go elsewhere and spend their money at a place that does.

Our dojang has some poom rank black belts that really are a bit young to wear a black belt, though none are as young as five.  With the current economic climb and some schools in our local area having closed, a school does what it must to keep the doors open.  To be fair, these kids are okay and some show a lot of potential to be very, very good dan rank students.  Also, they didn't quit after first poom, so they and their folks get points from me for that.

Daniel


----------



## Sylo

Celtic Tiger said:


> I hear you. Thats why I say I find the practice abhorant.
> 
> I try not to judge the schools that do so because I do understand that in order to stay open, many must churn out blackbelts two years from the student's entry into the class, regardless of their age, or the customers will just go elsewhere and spend their money at a place that does.
> 
> Our dojang has some poom rank black belts that really are a bit young to wear a black belt, though none are as young as five. With the current economic climb and some schools in our local area having closed, a school does what it must to keep the doors open. To be fair, these kids are okay and some show a lot of potential to be very, very good dan rank students. Also, they didn't quit after first poom, so they and their folks get points from me for that.
> 
> Daniel


 

My goal in training, besides self defense and excercise is to eventually open my own school. This area is SEVERELY lacking in good martial arts training. My instructor is getting up in age, and I'm not sure how much longer he would continue. My idea is to have a "KIDS ONLY" program that goes up to at least 12.  What it would consist of is a simplifed version of the adult curriculum. Since most of the kids enrolled, are here for either: A. babysitting B. they don't like Sports. I'd explain to the parents beforehand that the program is especially designed for kids, and has nothing to do with the adult program. The only link they would have is, that once they have reached the highest rank in the kids class and reached age 12 they could then move to the adult program, in which time they would have to start over at white belt. The program would not have a "black belt", because I would reserve that color for the adult class. Maybe something "kid friendly" to keep them motivated. That way, the parents can put them in and take them out at will, and it will in no way affect them once they are of age to join the adults. They will still get the same confidence building training they would otherwise, but they wouldn't taint the quality of the school. I may get less kids this way, but I think it would work if I lay everything out to the parents from the get go.

thoughts?


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## Daniel Sullivan

I think that is a very good idea.

Daniel


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## arnisador

mango.man said:


> And that pretty much sums it all up.  It is all about the almighty $$$ for most, if not all, instructors.



That's a bit harsh. If you want a nice, well-appointed, well-staffed martial arts school to train at and want it to still be there 5 years from now, your instructor will almost surely have to teach kids. I've seen too many adults-only schools that moved from a studio to a garage to non-existent as the studio's bills mounted and the relatively small number of dedicated adults (plus the slightly larger but fluctuating number of interested adults who came-and-went as jobs changed, marriages occurred, etc.) couldn't support it. It may be to your benefit as serious adult to have kids at the school too. Plus, your instructor is an adult with a family and deserves a good living just like anyone else. Teaching kids may mean he or she has enough staff to qualify to offer health benefits for his or her employees.

As an imperfect analogy: If you like pro baseball, you need to understand that it stands on the backs of minor league, college, high school, and ultimately Little League ball. The kids you find boring to watch and undisciplined now will be having their HRs reviewed by instant replay some day.

I too prefer an adults-only school. But that's a tough business model. In a large city or a college-supported club you can have some of those. In a smaller town it's a lot harder.

Now, ranking issues are another matter and I'm of the "at least 16 years old for black belt" school of thought. Kids need frequent reinforcement, though--like daily gold stars in kindergarten.


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## Sylo

arnisador said:


> That's a bit harsh. If you want a nice, well-appointed, well-staffed martial arts school to train at and want it to still be there 5 years from now, your instructor will almost surely have to teach kids. I've seen too many adults-only schools that moved from a studio to a garage to non-existent as the studio's bills mounted and the relatively small number of dedicated adults (plus the slightly larger but fluctuating number of interested adults who came-and-went as jobs changed, marriages occurred, etc.) couldn't support it. It may be to your benefit as serious adult to have kids at the school too. Plus, your instructor is an adult with a family and deserves a good living just like anyone else. Teaching kids may mean he or she has enough staff to qualify to offer health benefits for his or her employees.
> 
> As an imperfect analogy: If you like pro baseball, you need to understand that it stands on the backs of minor league, college, high school, and ultimately Little League ball. The kids you find boring to watch and undisciplined now will be having their HRs reviewed by instant replay some day.
> 
> I too prefer an adults-only school. But that's a tough business model. In a large city or a college-supported club you can have some of those. In a smaller town it's a lot harder.
> 
> Now, ranking issues are another matter and I'm of the "at least 16 years old for black belt" school of thought. Kids need frequent reinforcement, though--like daily gold stars in kindergarten.


 
I'm not sure if thats exactly what he meant. But, as I think I have already addressed. My instructor doesn't mind teaching kids. But he does want them to learn, and move up at the rate they are supposed to. But, due to the "parents" of these kids.. and not so much the kids themselves.. He is forced to move them along at some sort of pace. Yes, he will fail a student that is blatantly not doing their best. But, he will conf. with the parents to try to find out why the student is not trying. Sometimes kids will TRY very hard, and once they get to the next rank.. they'll forget everything. Its just the nature of kids, and thus why they don't belong at such a high rank. My teacher doesn't promote anyone for the money.

he charges 35 a month, and 10 when you test. That barely covers the cost of the belt. When you hit black its a bit more.. but you also get a new gi top, a embroirdered belt, and a framed oversized certificate. Some instructors just have to do it, to keep students. The good students will shine, regardless.. and thats how I look at things.


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## jim777

At the last (multi-school) breaking seminar I went to, I was in a group of 6th kyu to 4th kyu students (being a 6th kyu student myself at the time), and one 4th kyu student was about 5 years old, tops. He was far smaller and younger looking than even my 6 year old 9th kyu son, who was the youngest at the seminar from our school. He not only couldn't break a half inch board, but he cried a lot and seemed completely disinterested in anything going on around him. Now, I know the head instructor at that student's school, and he is a great, motivated instructor and a really good guy as well. But the bottom line is you can't teach the intricacies of the more complex moves to high ranking deserving students if you have to close your doors because you can't make the rent.
Recently somebody posted something along the lines of "1 in 100 students stays to 1st Dan, and 1 in 1000 1st Dans stay until 2nd". You don't get to teach _any_ 2nd Dan candidates without teaching a lot of people who will fail out, drop out, or just flat out quit because it's a lot tougher than sitting on the couch pounding popcorn. You determine who you'll take and who you'll turn away, and you do your best from there. And if you're lucky enough, and a good enough instructor you _might_ get to make a living at it, but even that isn't a guarantee.


----------



## Kacey

Laurentkd said:


> I have a question for you... how do you deal with students who receive their second degree before your son, even though he has been a first degree longer.
> For example, we have a 15 year old at our dojang who is a 2nd degree (has been for a year) and he can not test for 3rd until he is 18.  There are students who received their 2nd dan after him, but who will be able to test for 3rd before him due to this age restriction.  At that point those students who were once his juniors will now be his seniors.  I don't really see any way around this, but at the same time it doesn't seem quite right this way either.  What do you think?



People test past other people all the time; one of my seniors was a yellow belt (8th gup) when I was a red belt (1st gup) - but due to life events (grad school, divorce, etc.) that caused me to stay at II Dan for 7 years, he tested past me.  That's the way life is.  Why would it be different for younger students?


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## Mimir

I think it is a little difficult to pick an age and say that there cannot possibly be a black belt at that age because of "whatever" reason.  A lot of it depends on the individual and how well they have assimilated  the training.  My daughter earned her 1st dan at the age of 14.  Thing is, she tested with several others and she had to do exactly the same things that the others had to do.  She was given nothing, she earned her belt.  My point is that just because the student is younger, does not mean that they cannot learn.


----------



## IcemanSK

Kacey said:


> People test past other people all the time; one of my seniors was a yellow belt (8th gup) when I was a red belt (1st gup) - but due to life events (grad school, divorce, etc.) that caused me to stay at II Dan for 7 years, he tested past me. That's the way life is. Why would it be different for younger students?


 

You bring up the point well Kacey. Life happens & folks test past others all the time. I was a 2nd Dan for 19 years. A guy who's 1st gup board I sat on for is now a 6th Dan. It happens too when a family goes on vacation on test day: others will test past them. It's not an issue that someone "got screwed out of something." It's just circumstances.


----------



## Sylo

Mimir said:


> I think it is a little difficult to pick an age and say that there cannot possibly be a black belt at that age because of "whatever" reason.  A lot of it depends on the individual and how well they have assimilated  the training.  My daughter earned her 1st dan at the age of 14.  Thing is, she tested with several others and she had to do exactly the same things that the others had to do.  She was given nothing, she earned her belt.  My point is that just because the student is younger, does not mean that they cannot learn.




I think thats exactly whats being said. Maybe not in those words. There are always exceptions to a rule. I've seen some 7 year olds who can do things I wouldn't imagine. But they aren't the majority.


----------



## Gizmo

Sylo said:


> For example the other night at class. There 2 kids, probably 8-9... in front of me when we were doing bag drills.. he had the blue belts (me) and the red belts in a line together. The 2 kids were high rank red.. which is one rank before recommended black belt.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Their technique was non existant. They might as well have been white belt. I don't blame the instructor though. *He'd have to close his doors if he actually ranked these kids at the rate they progress.*



Actually, I know schools who hand out high belts like candys and others who put all candidates though really hard tests in my country as well. Surprisingly, the two that came to my mind have quite a big number of students, but only one is widely respected here as a good school, and if you meet a black belt from there, you are pretty sure that you have a tough fighter in front of you. 

I have kid students aged 8 or 9, training with me for 2-3 years, proudly wearing their yellow belts because they were taught that this is the right level for them to be at the moment. They are moving slowly up the ranks because they were taught that a black belt is not something you may achieve just by attending an XXX number of classes. I have no one under 12 wearing a blue belt. My youngest BB passed his 1st Dan 4 months before his 18th birthday and has been with me for some 8 years before testing for this rank. 

The funniest thing is, we are the biggest school in town, one of the biggest in the area and we are just starting our 15th year of existence. We don't make too much advertising because we don't have enough place in the gym for people wanting to train, in fact we only do accept kids at the moment as the adult group is full. 

Back when I started, I was one of the youngest members of the club (14 years of age at the time). It took us a year and a half to be allowed to test for 9th and 8th Kup. I made an 8th Kup back then and I still remember that particular grading. It took me 9 years to get to 1st Dan and I don't regret any minute of it.

So, in this case, I will definitely blame the instructor for not teaching his students the value of the rank...


----------



## arnisador

Kacey said:


> People test past other people all the time



Indeed, if this _isn't_ happening some of the time, it's hard to believe that promotion is based on merit rather than mere seniority.


----------



## Laurentkd

Kacey said:


> People test past other people all the time; one of my seniors was a yellow belt (8th gup) when I was a red belt (1st gup) - but due to life events (grad school, divorce, etc.) that caused me to stay at II Dan for 7 years, he tested past me. That's the way life is. Why would it be different for younger students?


 

I think the difference is, that this kid will be training hard the entire time being just as committed (if not more) than others, but he'll just be held back because of age.  So while he is a 2nd dan for maybe 4 years, adults who come up behind him can test after only 3 years.  I guess he'll just be that much better when he does test for 3rd (which is all that really matters) and hopefully who stands in front of him in line doesn't matter. 
I do believe their should be some age restrictions with rank; I am in no way against that.  It was really just more of a hypothetical question that this thread got me asking myself.  As others have said, most people are not ready to test at the minimum time requirement... that is why it is called a minimum.


----------



## Laurentkd

arnisador said:


> Indeed, if this _isn't_ happening some of the time, it's hard to believe that promotion is based on merit rather than mere seniority.


 

I think you are right... but what is to say that this 17 year old doesn't have much more merit than a 37 year old but not allowed to test until he is 18?  By holding the 17 year old student back it seems promotion has in fact been based off seniority (in age) rather than merit.

I am assuming you are talking about the specific question I hijacked the thread with... if you are making a general statement then I totally agree... if people are only testing because a minimum time limit is up then there is a problem in my opinion.


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## arnisador

I was indeed speaking generally. The 17 y.o. waiting for 18 is the same problem with age to enlist in the army/vote/smoke/etc., and similarly with driving at 16 and drinking at 21. It's true that with martial arts you can make a one-on-one decision about an individual that is harder to do than with voting but across a 30,000 member org. you'd still get wide disparities in judgment. It'd be like letting your h.s. civics teacher decide whether you're ready to vote or not. I think some age limits are good for the integruty of the system.

If a 15 y.o. is worked up over not being promoted...he may not yet have the maturity we'd hope for in a person of that rank. If he isn't worked up about, there's no problem. Yes, a Catch-22 for the kid...but to my mind being a black belt and especially a ranking one requires a certain maturity and experience a kid would be very unlikely to have.


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## Svart

I saw a black belt at McDonalds today, he was up to my waist. THEY EXIST!


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## Sylo

Gizmo said:


> Actually, I know schools who hand out high belts like candys and others who put all candidates though really hard tests in my country as well. Surprisingly, the two that came to my mind have quite a big number of students, but only one is widely respected here as a good school, and if you meet a black belt from there, you are pretty sure that you have a tough fighter in front of you.
> 
> I have kid students aged 8 or 9, training with me for 2-3 years, proudly wearing their yellow belts because they were taught that this is the right level for them to be at the moment. They are moving slowly up the ranks because they were taught that a black belt is not something you may achieve just by attending an XXX number of classes. I have no one under 12 wearing a blue belt. My youngest BB passed his 1st Dan 4 months before his 18th birthday and has been with me for some 8 years before testing for this rank.
> 
> The funniest thing is, we are the biggest school in town, one of the biggest in the area and we are just starting our 15th year of existence. We don't make too much advertising because we don't have enough place in the gym for people wanting to train, in fact we only do accept kids at the moment as the adult group is full.
> 
> Back when I started, I was one of the youngest members of the club (14 years of age at the time). It took us a year and a half to be allowed to test for 9th and 8th Kup. I made an 8th Kup back then and I still remember that particular grading. It took me 9 years to get to 1st Dan and I don't regret any minute of it.
> 
> So, in this case, I will definitely blame the instructor for not teaching his students the value of the rank...


 

I agree with you.

But, in my personal situation. My instructor is not to blame. There are different people in different parts of the country. If you were to visit here, I'd not have to explain a thing. I come from a very poverty ridden backwoods part of the world. People use TKD as a cheap baby sitter, or they come to do "MMA", or they come because they want exercise. They don't look at it as a lifelong commitment. They've seen enough ATA to know your "supposed" to be yellow belt in 2 months, regardless of your skill level. They don't "understand" and no amount of explaining will make them see any differently. I really wish the people that lived in my area were like the ones you described. Sadly, most of the people here still refer to our school as "karate". They just want to know when they'll be black belt, and how many classes it will take.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Svart said:


> I saw a black belt at McDonalds today, he was up to my waist. THEY EXIST!


So they're putting them into the happy meals as a prize now.  I just _knew_ it would happen!

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

I think that one distinction that needs to be made is that being against kiddie blackbelts is not the same as being against teaching kids.  

I am very much in favor of teaching kids, and practitioners I know who started as young kids (and who didn't take twenty years off to pursue sword arts like I did) have an almost preternatural grace about them if they stay with it from childhood through adulthood.

But just because you're a kid with grace doesn't make you a fighter on par with an adult, even an untrained adult.  Being a mature fighter is the core of what constitutes a blackbelt.  Parents who want to push their ten year old into a black belt should be made to understand this.

Unfortunately, with kiddie blackbelts, we've collectively painted ourselves into a corner as an industry and it will take years to undo, even if every school in the country were trying to, which few are.

Daniel


----------



## Gizmo

Sylo said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> But, in my personal situation. My instructor is not to blame. There are different people in different parts of the country. If you were to visit here, I'd not have to explain a thing. I come from a very poverty ridden backwoods part of the world. People use TKD as a cheap baby sitter, or they come to do "MMA", or they come because they want exercise. They don't look at it as a lifelong commitment. They've seen enough ATA to know your "supposed" to be yellow belt in 2 months, regardless of your skill level. They don't "understand" and no amount of explaining will make them see any differently.



It's a matter of choices you make. I understand that your instructor is trying to make a living, but on the other hand - where is the limit of compromise?

The region I live in was the second poorest part of the European Union just a couple of years ago. Remember, we can give people a fish and feed them for a day, or teach them fishing and feed them for life. In my school, the students can train for free if they get to a black belt, or if they are in the National Team, or if they work for the school. Simple things - advertising, helping with demos or tournaments (I don't mean refereeing - I mean carrying the tables, cleaning the mats, escorting teams from other locations), mending the equipment. Nothing is given, just like in life. We should actually teach people that there is NO easy way, otherwise they will look for an easy way in life. They need a belt, they get it. They need money, the government should give it to them. Miracles like unemployed people in locations where workers are needed (yes, we have it over here...).

Every year I'm in Moldova for a couple of days and a tournament. They are the poorest country in Europe. When I first got ther I had an impression of East European pre-WW2 villages live in front of me, just like I saw it in the history books. What we really liked was the fact that they had a great MA spirit. Black belts were few and really of a black belt caliber. Most students wore lower coloured belts. I spoke with their instructors and found out that the tests are hard and pretty expensive, and still - many people are willing to train. I still remember a group of Moldovan students coming 1000 kms to our tournaments - 6 people in a 5 person car, the 6th one crossing the border by feet to avoid being fined, withb the instructor driving all the way. They didn't have enough money, but they had a heart!

I was shocked to hear a question from a student from another school asking me if anybody ever failed a belt test in our club. Sure thing - I answered - it happens, if there is a test, there is a possibility that you will fail. It doesn't happen very ofthen, as the higher grades do know when to test and when to wait  The second question was - how many people quit because they failed a test. I had to think for a while and answered - I remember two of them. The student said that in his school everybody tests, everybody passes, because if somebody would fail, s/he would quit the very next day for sure. I thought that something goes totally wrong there.

I think it's our fault, the instructors' fault, that we chose to accept the excuses, go the easy way and dropped to the expectations of many customers, instead of helping them to rise to the level we want them to achieve. I firmly believe that we can create a good MA program without compromising the snadards. It's also about teaching people that the belts are not everything. Just that and as hard as that.


----------



## Traditionalist

arnisador said:


> We're talking about 18 year old third degree black belts here. I have problems with calling that "advanced".


 
I have a problem with an 18 year old being a third dan period.


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## Traditionalist

Mimir said:


> I think it is a little difficult to pick an age and say that there cannot possibly be a black belt at that age because of "whatever" reason. A lot of it depends on the individual and how well they have assimilated  the training. My daughter earned her 1st dan at the age of 14. Thing is, she tested with several others and she had to do exactly the same things that the others had to do. She was given nothing, she earned her belt. My point is that just because the student is younger, does not mean that they cannot learn.


 
Maybe they could try this for the drinking age or for driving. If a kid can pass the driving test no matter what age then he can drive.


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## IcemanSK

Traditionalist said:


> Maybe they could try this for the drinking age or for driving. If a kid can pass the driving test no matter what age then he can drive.


 

Let's not try to compare martial art rank with drinking or driving. As much as we love it, it just ain't that special or important.

Don't make the piece of cloth around your waist mean something that it doesn't.


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## StuartA

For those that want to do this sort of thing, for whatever reason, theres a simply way around it - give the kids something else as an incentive.. make a grade thats top of the line for kids, but NOT a black belt, kinda like a Jnr BB but for even younger pups. Utilize them dodgy gold or cammo belts out there.. that way, kids still have the progression and the BB isnt dimished as its not handed out to kids.. further more the school doesnt get a bad rep cos it it!

Parents mostly dont know jack about martial arts.. explain the merits of such a system and what a BB means in your school and then they should understand. As long as little Johnny is seen to be moving forward and achieveing most parents would be happy Id think.

Stuart


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## Cirdan

StuartA said:


> Parents mostly dont know jack about martial arts..


 
Yeah.. one parent told my teacher his 16 yr old son is a national champion in kata and a 7th Dan in Mudo. Even with today`s rank inflation I find that hard to believe.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Mudo?  Never heard the term applied to a specific martial art.  Does it not simply mean, 'martial way'?

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

StuartA said:


> Parents mostly dont know jack about martial arts..


Nor do they know Jill.


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## StuartA

Celtic Tiger said:


> Nor do they know Jill.


 
Even truer!

Stuart


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## Cirdan

Celtic Tiger said:


> Mudo? Never heard the term applied to a specific martial art. Does it not simply mean, 'martial way'?


 
Yes, I think the club is named the Mudo institute or something and they teach TKD and possibly Hapkido. I hear they have a few 3rd dans below the age of 18 there, but 7.th dan at 16 is just plain stupid.


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## BrandonLucas

Cirdan said:


> Yes, I think the club is named the Mudo institute or something and they teach TKD and possibly Hapkido. I hear they have a few 3rd dans below the age of 18 there, but 7.th dan at 16 is just plain stupid.


 
Wow.  7th dan at 16?  They would have had to have started taking the martial art far before they were in the womb...

Seriously, though, these are classic examples of McDojos.  I agree that if you think someone who is ill prepared to go through the physical demands of an adult has worked hard enough to deserve a black belt, then this is where a Jr. Blackbelt would come into play.

I really feel strongly that a full blackbelt should not be rewarded until the person can subject themselves to the exact same physical tests that an adult would.  There are kids, though, that show a strong understanding of the martial art and are spot on with technique...they just may not be devoloped enough yet to complete an adult testing.


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## Kwanjang

I have commented on this thread before. 

1. In no way can a child (fight) a grown man and win.

2. Can children that *are* gifted, learn the material, and demonstrate beautiful and powerful (for their age and size) technique, absolutely.

3. kids are just smaller versions of adults. Hence, if they are taught and they practice diligently they can be quite impressive. 

4.* 5 year old Black belts no way!* 4-6 is when I start teaching them.

5.I have several young BB ages 9-14 who are impressive to watch. Can they defend themselves against another kid their age? I think so, each responding according to their gifts, naturally!

6. Some examples of exceptional child martial artist:Jet Li, Ernie Rayes Jr.
    there are probably some more- can't think of them of hand.

7. Kid martial artist are the future of the arts, embrace their passion, for we adults will not be around forever.


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## sjansen

I just saw a second degree 7 year old in TKD. Maybe I should have recorded it and sent it in like the bigfoot footage.


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## arnisador

LOL! Yeah, it completely devalues the system--TKD ranks are like Zimbabwean currency at this point. (Sorry, TKDers.)


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## Traditionalist

I think anyone under 17 getting a blackbelt is a joke. you're always going to have your exceptions but you base your rules on the norm. Everytime I see a kid with a blackbelt on I want to go over and jerk it off of them. If you are going to start saying they are black belt quality for their age then they shouldn't be on the same level as adults (hence that is where the term junior blackbelt comes in). If I see an organization with kids running around with blackbelts on then I just remind myself that the ole-mighty-dollar usually speaks the loudest.


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## Traditionalist

IcemanSK said:


> Don't make the piece of cloth around your waist mean something that it doesn't.


 
Exactly. and the black belt around a 5 yr olds waist or a 14 yrs old waist isn't a blackbelt. Its a receipt.


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## arnisador

Traditionalist said:


> Exactly. and the black belt around a 5 yr olds waist or a 14 yrs old waist isn't a blackbelt. Its a receipt.



I'll be using this line myself. Thanks!


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## mango.man

Traditionalist said:


> I think anyone under 17 getting a blackbelt is a joke. you're always going to have your exceptions but you base your rules on the norm. Everytime I see a kid with a blackbelt on I want to go over and jerk it off of them. If you are going to start saying they are black belt quality for their age then they shouldn't be on the same level as adults (hence that is where the term junior blackbelt comes in). If I see an organization with kids running around with blackbelts on then I just remind myself that the ole-mighty-dollar usually speaks the loudest.



 I am just curious if you have ever had the urge to rip the black belt off of an adult for any reason.  Say perhaps a retarded adult at age 30 but with the brain capacity and behavior of a 10 year old.  Would you rip his or her black belt away and tell them that they are not worthy of the rank?  Just wondering.


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## Tez3

mango.man said:


> I am just curious if you have ever had the urge to rip the black belt off of an adult for any reason. Say perhaps a retarded adult at age 30 but with the brain capacity and behavior of a 10 year old. Would you rip his or her black belt away and tell them that they are not worthy of the rank? Just wondering.


 

Do you mean someone who is mentally handicapped?


----------



## mango.man

Tez3 said:


> Do you mean someone who is mentally handicapped?



 No, I meant retarded.  Feel free to look it up in the dictionary if you need to.


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## terryl965

OK everybody lets stay nice


----------



## Bob Hubbard

mango.man said:


> No, I meant retarded.  Feel free to look it up in the dictionary if you need to.


Retard \Re*tard"\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Retarded; p. pr. & vb.
   n. Retarding.] [L. retardare, retardatum; pref. re- re- +
   tardare to make slow, to delay, fr. tardus slow: cf. F.
   retarder. See Tardy.]
   1. To keep delaying; to continue to hinder; to prevent from
      progress; to render more slow in progress; to impede; to
      hinder; as, to retard the march of an army; to retard the
      motion of a ship; -- opposed to accelerate.

   2. To put off; to postpone; as, to retard the attacks of old
      age; to retard a rupture between nations.

   Syn: To impede; hinder; obstruct; detain; delay;
        procrastinate; postpone; defer.


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## tshadowchaser

slow or limited in intellectual or emotional development *:* characterized by mental retardation


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## tshadowchaser

Even with those explanations I have seen those with handicaps both mental and physical wear a black belt and do it more justice than some with out disabilities


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## Kacey

mango.man said:


> I am just curious if you have ever had the urge to rip the black belt off of an adult for any reason.  Say perhaps a retarded adult at age 30 but with the brain capacity and behavior of a 10 year old.  Would you rip his or her black belt away and tell them that they are not worthy of the rank?  Just wondering.





Tez3 said:


> Do you mean someone who is mentally handicapped?





mango.man said:


> No, I meant retarded.  Feel free to look it up in the dictionary if you need to.




Speaking as a special education teacher, the two terms may, or may not, be synonymous.  "Mentally handicapped" is a term that may refer to "mentally retarded" - and is considered to be more politically correct - but may also refer to mental illness, traumatic brain injury, or a total lack of sense.

In either case, I would have to consider the instructor and organization granting the belt, as well as the demonstrated abilities of the person wearing the belt, before I could determine my opinion.  I have known a great many people with "mental handicaps" - including mental retardation, traumatic brain injury, a total lack of sense, as well dyslexia (not knowing right from left is a significant problem in many patterns), bipolar disorder (medicated and otherwise), along with other conditions often lumped into the category of "mental handicap" - and I have known people in every category who were talented, capable martial artists of various ranks, including black belt, who well deserved the rank they had been awarded - just as I know quite a few who lacked the label "mentally handicapped" (and in some cases should have been so labeled) who _didn't_ deserve the rank they had been awarded.  

"Mental handicap", like "retarded", is a label, short-hand for a wide range of abilities and/or disabilities, depending on your perspective, and neither, by themselves, are bars to a person achieving a legitimate black belt.  It may take longer; such a condition may make the journey more difficult than for the mythical "average" person - but that condition is only one piece, and is not, by itself, a bar to attaining the rank of black belt.

So to answer your question - no, I would not "rip away" the black belt of "retarded adult at age 30 but with the brain capacity and behavior of a 10 year old".  I might talk to the person's instructor - for all I, or you, know, it may have taken that person 20 years to learn the required material, but it was learned.  

Have I ever had the urge to take a belt away from an adult?  Yes, I have... but it had nothing to do with any "disability" the adult was known to have; nor is reason relevant to a discussion about rank compared to ability.


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## terryl965

No 5 year old can be a BB period.


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## Brian R. VanCise

I was recently at a party where one mother said her ten year old had just gotten a black belt.  Two which a few minutes later my twelve year old said to me: *what a joke*! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I think it comes down to people trying to equate expert with black belt when the black belt status has been eroded with countless unqualified people having one.  Add to it that every organization does things differently and walla the meaning or prestige of it has been significantly reduced.  Things that cannot be reduced as much is if someone is a teacher/trainer/instructor/coach etc. and they produce quality practitioner's.  *Still in the end it all is subjective!!!*


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## jks9199

*To all users:

Please keep the discussion at a mature and respectful level. This includes recognizing that some terms may have acquired loaded and offensive meanings beyond their dictionary definitions, especially without very specific context. Please consider this when posting.

jks9199
Moderator*


----------



## BrandonLucas

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I think it comes down to *people trying to equate expert with black belt* when the black belt status has been eroded with countless unqualified people having one.


 
This is what it boils down to, folks.  Blackbelt = expert.  At some level.  How can a 5 year old be an expert at anything?  It took them 5 years and 9 months to get to the point in life where they are, from conception to present time.  It took almost that long for me to earn my 1st dan.  

The different dans, different degrees of blackbelt are the different degrees of expert experience.  1st dan = expert knowledge of the basic and intermediate techniques....2nd dan = expert knowledge of basics, internediates, and partial advanced techniques...etc.

So, if a 5 year old has a blackbelt, at 1st dan, we're saying that he/she has expert knowledge of the basic and intermediate techniques.  The 5 year old doesn't even have expert knowledge of the basic motor skills!

Just throwing that out there.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Just a clarification to all: most systems do not categorize first dan or its equivalent as being expert.  Usually it just means that they have a solid grasp of the basics.  Most that use the yudansha system don't categorize someone as a master until after third dan, usually fourth or fifth at least.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Traditionalist said:


> I think anyone under 17 getting a blackbelt is a joke. you're always going to have your exceptions but you base your rules on the norm. Everytime I see a kid with a blackbelt on I want to go over and jerk it off of them. If you are going to start saying they are black belt quality for their age then they shouldn't be on the same level as adults (hence that is where the term junior blackbelt comes in). If I see an organization with kids running around with blackbelts on then I just remind myself that the ole-mighty-dollar usually speaks the loudest.


Out of curiosity, what is so special about seventeen?  Personally, I think that the kukkiwon's break of fifteen for dan ranks is about right.  Most teens are physically mature enough by that point to where I wouldn't have concerns about serious serious injuries, as I would with young kids, and if they can pass the same test as an adult, then why not?

I think that that is my biggest concern with most younger blackbelts: they don't take the same test that the older teens and adults do.

And no, I never have the urge to jerk the belt off of them.  Its tied to them, so I'd have to undo the knot first, at which point it will fall off anyway, no jerking required. 

But more importantly, why treat the student with such disrespect?  The issue shouldn't be taken up with the student but with the instructor. 

As an instructor, I have inherited kids with blackbelts who really didn't deserve them.  Rather than penalizing the student, I tell them where they need work and that the goal is to get their skills to the level of the belt that they have.  This is after they've been handed their hats by a greenbelt and don't understand how this could have happened.

Ultimately, the goal should be to train up the student to be of the highest quality that they can achieve, not police belts given out by someone else.  

Daniel


----------



## Sylo

BrandonLucas said:


> This is what it boils down to, folks. Blackbelt = expert. At some level. How can a 5 year old be an expert at anything? It took them 5 years and 9 months to get to the point in life where they are, from conception to present time. It took almost that long for me to earn my 1st dan.
> 
> The different dans, different degrees of blackbelt are the different degrees of expert experience. 1st dan = expert knowledge of the basic and intermediate techniques....2nd dan = expert knowledge of basics, internediates, and partial advanced techniques...etc.
> 
> So, if a 5 year old has a blackbelt, at 1st dan, we're saying that he/she has expert knowledge of the basic and intermediate techniques. The 5 year old doesn't even have expert knowledge of the basic motor skills!
> 
> Just throwing that out there.


 

Like has already been said..

regardless of whether or not one things belts should have meaning. They are there as a measure of ones skill level in the art. Now, this can be measured in different ways. But the general concensus see it as a way to measure physical ability and overall knowledge of the art and its application as it pertains to combat. So, to see a 5 year old wearing a black belt is to think "Hey, this kid knows his art in and out and would know how and  why he is using the techniques he is using in a real situation".
 Unfortunately, there are very few.. if any 5 year olds I know.. that have this gift. It certainly isn't ordinary, and in a case where my be legitimate.. the child would have to be more intelligent than most people 3/4x his age. It just doesn't happen.

We've got some red belts in our class, that in "my eyes". Shouldn't be. They have the attention level of gnats, and their techniques look like that of fresh white belts. They "know" the moves, but I have never seen either of them do them correctly. However, I do imagine they have the time "served" as they come almost every single day. While someone like myself, whose ability is alot better.. and I can actually perform the moves correctly.. I only come 2-3 times a week. So, while I know that time served counts for something... skill and ability should still be the overrall deciding factor. Unfortunately, if we used that mentality.. most schools would shut down.. since for some stupid reason. Most parents think this is a summer camp or babysitting service.. rather than a martial arts training school.. go figure that right?

My rule of thumb is, I don't worry about them. I know my training is where it needs to be, and I know where I stand. As far as I am concerned.. they are not in the same league as I am, and so I do not pay attention to them or how good or bad they do. As long as I am getting better and improving.. the color of my belt will mean something to those who see me in action.


----------



## StuartA

jks9199 said:


> *To all users:*
> 
> *Please keep the discussion at a mature and respectful level. This includes recognizing that some terms may have acquired loaded and offensive meanings beyond their dictionary definitions, especially without very specific context. Please consider this when posting.*
> 
> *jks9199*
> *Moderator*


 
Ill second that!

As a parent of a child with Down Syndrome, whom I hope to see achieve his black belt one day, referrences of that nature are hurtful and uncalled for (even if said out of ignorance). 

Regarding the topic at hand, my son is 5, yes I hope to see him get a BB one day and if its something he wants then I'll do my damest to help him achieve it.. but I dont want anyone to give it to him "_just because_.." despite his condition. He has a long road to travel, in his short life he has been in hospital more times than I have in my whole life, had a double hole in the heart opertation and has low muscle tone (amongst other things) and I think to see him earn his BB will be one of the proudest moments of my life and Ill be dammed if anyone will take that way from me cos they give out grades to all... IF he gets it, it will because he wants it and is prepared to do what his needed to earn it.. if not, then he shouldnt have it!

I saw a t-shirt once (that was unfortunatly too small for him) otehrwise I would have brought him it, it said:

*"You laugh at me because I'm different*
*I laugh at you because your the same"*​ 
These words speak volumes IMO!

Stuart


----------



## bluekey88

Qft


----------



## mango.man

StuartA said:


> Ill second that!
> 
> As a parent of a child with Down Syndrome, whom I hope to see achieve his black belt one day, referrences of that nature are hurtful and uncalled for (even if said out of ignorance).
> 
> Regarding the topic at hand, my son is 5, yes I hope to see him get a BB one day and if its something he wants then I'll do my damest to help him achieve it.. but I dont want anyone to give it to him "_just because_.." despite his condition. He has a long road to travel, in his short life he has been in hospital more times than I have in my whole life, had a double hole in the heart opertation and has low muscle tone (amongst other things) and I think to see him earn his BB will be one of the proudest moments of my life and Ill be dammed if anyone will take that way from me cos they give out grades to all... IF he gets it, it will because he wants it and is prepared to do what his needed to earn it.. if not, then he shouldnt have it!
> 
> I saw a t-shirt once (that was unfortunatly too small for him) otehrwise I would have brought him it, it said:
> 
> *"You laugh at me because I'm different*
> *I laugh at you because your the same"*​
> These words speak volumes IMO!
> 
> Stuart



This is really my point.  I think it is great that people with downs, autism, etc can do and enjoy TKD and martial arts in general.  However  they should not be expected to perform the same exact test at the same level as an adult that does not suffer from such ailments.  Not being able to perform at the same level though does not mean that they did not earn their belt though.  And that was the real point of my question of would you rip the black belt off of a retarded adult that did not take the same exact test as the other adults or is it just kids that need to be tested to the same standards as adults or have their belts ripped off of them?


----------



## StuartA

mango.man said:


> This is really my point. I think it is great that people with downs, autism, etc can do and enjoy TKD and martial arts in general. However they should not be expected to perform the same exact test at the same level as an adult that does not suffer from such ailments. Not being able to perform at the same level though does not mean that they did not earn their belt though. And that was the real point of my question of would you rip the black belt off of a retarded adult that did not take the same exact test as the other adults or is it just kids that need to be tested to the same standards as adults or have their belts ripped off of them?


 
You mean an adult black belt who is mentally handicapped right?


----------



## Tez3

Mango.man I think probably without meaning to you are being unneccesarily offensive. 
I wouldn't rip a belt off anyone child or adult. As someone correctly pointed out, it's not the students fault it needs taking up with the instructors.
Using the word retarded to describe people as again has been pointed out and as far as British English is concerned, calling someone a retard or retarded is an insult.
I wouldn't be so quick to assume Downs Syndrome people couldn't take a grading that the rest of the class couldn't take, like many things there are degrees of Downs Syndrome. I have seen people with Downs run businesses of their own, work in 'normal' jobs and function far better than others who are designated 'normal' The same applies to Autism, it all depends *as always in a class*, on the student.


----------



## Sylo

To me. 

Like I said earlier..

there are different "measures" for what is considered "black belt".

Does it mean you can do perfect side kicks? nope.. 
Does it mean you can do a split? nope...
Does it mean you will perform your forms from white ---> black the same as <insert grandmaster here>? nope.. probably not.

To me, black belt.. is a measure of the combined time, effort, and knowledege one has attributed and gained in martial arts to the best of that persons ability. If its someone with a mental or physical illness or ailment.. then obviously the measure is changed. Is it any less strenuous or effort provoking? No..

 "to the best of ones ability"

the key words here I believe.

If the student is doing his absolute best in class, in terms of learning the moves, practicing his forms, and understanding the art. In my eyes, he deserves black belt. whether he can kick someone in the head 20 times or fight off 5 men twice his size doesn't have any bearing to me. His "effort" is all that I would measure.

It should be relatively easy to see who is working hard, and who is not. I can spot them in seconds of being in class.

The only tough spot in this situation.. is at what age a person is deemed competent enough to grasp the concepts of martial arts, and in my humble opinion 5 years old is too young.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

mango.man said:


> This is really my point. I think it is great that people with downs, autism, etc can do and enjoy TKD and martial arts in general. However they should not be expected to perform the same exact test at the same level as an adult that does not suffer from such ailments. Not being able to perform at the same level though does not mean that they did not earn their belt though. And that was the real point of my question of would you rip the black belt off of a retarded adult that did not take the same exact test as the other adults or is it just kids that need to be tested to the same standards as adults or have their belts ripped off of them?


This is where a lot of people differ on this subject: should a blackbelt be a measure of personal best and a reward for equal effort and work, with the student's ability to perform being relative depending upon age, ability, disability, or other factors, or should it be an outward indicator that the student has passed a specific test?

Ultimately, that is up to the regulatory body that issues the certificate and belt, be it a master at a school or a full fledged federation like the Kukkiwon.  

Personally, I have always held that the belt and dan cert should only be given to those who can pass a uniform test.  I also think that the belt itself is over emphasized to the detriment of many students.  It is skills that should be emphasized, as the skills are what people will recognize when the student isn't in the dojang with his/her rank plainly visible.  I have sadly seen many students who have been rewarded with black belts who cannot handle themselves against even a wannabe schoolyard bully, which is very often the reason that they signed up for martial arts in the first place.  

That is my opinion; some agree and others don't, which is just fine.  It is more important to me that the school isn't simply doing the 'belt for fee' thing, where money is the driving factor in the awarding of belts.  This tends to be the case with the five year old blackbelt scenarios nearly 100% of the time, which is probably why people on forums get so charged up over it.

The belt system is a part of taekwondo.  Taekwondo was established with the system of belts and rank, rather than being a preexisting martial system that adopted the rank system later on, so I am not an advocate of doing away with the belts.  

But as I said above, the black belt is over emphasized: every student does not need one.  If one wishes to be nothing more than a skilled technician, they don't need one at all, and certainly don't need to go for higher degrees.  In addition, I find the whole emphasis on ranks above fifth dan to be a bit out of hand as well, though that is another subject entirely.

Daniel


----------



## BrandonLucas

I just wanted to throw this in here:

I think it was either in '98 or '99, I was assisting with a testing in another school.  I wasn't judging, but I was along for the fun and to assist in sparring and holding boards and all that good stuff.

There was a guy there testing for redbelt that was about 22 at the time, and he had down syndrome.  So they put me up to spar him.

I'm serious when I say this:  I wouldn't have messed with that guy if I could help it.  Sure, his kicks and punches weren't the most impressive, and his form (of course) looked slightly awkward, but the guy could spar.  He hit like a mule!  And he was also faster than I gave him credit for...there were several times that he caught me with a roundhouse kick to the head, and I'm serious when I say I felt it.

He earned his redbelt at the testing.  And he did a great job.  So, I wouldn't be quick to judge someone just because they have *any* kind of disabliity.


----------



## Tez3

BrandonLucas said:


> I just wanted to throw this in here:
> 
> I think it was either in '98 or '99, I was assisting with a testing in another school. I wasn't judging, but I was along for the fun and to assist in sparring and holding boards and all that good stuff.
> 
> There was a guy there testing for redbelt that was about 22 at the time, and he had down syndrome. So they put me up to spar him.
> 
> I'm serious when I say this: I wouldn't have messed with that guy if I could help it. Sure, his kicks and punches weren't the most impressive, and his form (of course) *looked slightly awkward*, but the guy could spar. He hit like a mule! And he was also faster than I gave him credit for...there were several times that he caught me with a roundhouse kick to the head, and I'm serious when I say I felt it.
> 
> He earned his redbelt at the testing. And he did a great job. So, I wouldn't be quick to judge someone just because they have *any* kind of disabliity.


 
_Good post_! I keep meaning to post up for help with a adult student I have who finds kata difficult and is so stiff that it also looks awkward, he's a serving NCO in the army so it just goes to show that *anyone can find things in martial arts difficult!! *
We've had discussions on here about all sorts of things that people find handicap them, short sightedness, balance problems, hip and joint problems etc. And how many times have people posted up for help with understanding techniques because it puzzled and baffles them (That'll be me and me and me)? 
Does it only mean that only physically perfect people who understand everything first time and perform everything exactly right can have blackbelts?


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## Carol

A American Kenpo student from Latin America put up this YouTube video of a young man's  brown belt test under the heading of "Motivation".   

The text is in Spanish, I'll offer a translation.

The first frame says that in 1980, Roberto, at 8 months of age, fell gravely ill.

The second frame says his diagnosis was meningitis. His prognosis was that he would not be able to speak or walk another day. 

The third frame says...26 years later, Robert demonstated how just how mistaken science would be.

[yt]GSz7sOubV6A[/yt]

The frame at the end says Roberto Rivas Castillo, is today, a 3rd degree Brown Belt (3rd belt away from black), AKKS - Chile.

Personally I found this video to be incredibly inspiring.  Watch it all the way to the end where he gets his kick for his new rank and you can get a feel for how inspired his classmates were as well.


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## IcemanSK

Well since Carol started sharing videos & the conversation has turned to disabilties, I'll add this one. I've posted it before, but it bears repeating.

Luke is a 20 year old 2nd Dan who as been training in Taekwondo for 13 or so years. He has cerebral palsy on the right side of his body. He cannot make a fist with his right hand. Last summer, he told his instructor he wanted to break the school's brick breaking record of 9 bricks. This is the result of his break with his left hand.


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## phatbway

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, what's the meaning of a Black belt? this 15 year old blue belt kid @ my school floored the ONLY BB in the school (she's about 50 ish) So, again, what's a BB?


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## Traditionalist

Celtic Tiger said:


> Out of curiosity, what is so special about seventeen? Personally, I think that the kukkiwon's break of fifteen for dan ranks is about right. Most teens are physically mature enough by that point to where I wouldn't have concerns about serious serious injuries, as I would with young kids, and if they can pass the same test as an adult, then why not?
> 
> I think that that is my biggest concern with most younger blackbelts: they don't take the same test that the older teens and adults do.
> 
> And no, I never have the urge to jerk the belt off of them. Its tied to them, so I'd have to undo the knot first, at which point it will fall off anyway, no jerking required.
> 
> But more importantly, why treat the student with such disrespect? The issue shouldn't be taken up with the student but with the instructor.
> 
> As an instructor, I have inherited kids with blackbelts who really didn't deserve them. Rather than penalizing the student, I tell them where they need work and that the goal is to get their skills to the level of the belt that they have. This is after they've been handed their hats by a greenbelt and don't understand how this could have happened.
> 
> Ultimately, the goal should be to train up the student to be of the highest quality that they can achieve, not police belts given out by someone else.
> 
> Daniel


 
I said the number 17 because in my original school in korea you have to be 18 to test for a "adult" black belt. We go by a different birthday system there so in America the student would be 17. And I won't even answer the question about the retard queston. I find it rude and out of line. rip wasn't meant literally either. I didn't know what other word to use. Sorry!


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## terryl965

Traditionalist said:


> I said the number 17 because in my original school in korea you have to be 18 to test for a "adult" black belt. We go by a different birthday system there so in America the student would be 17. And I won't even answer the question about the retard queston. I find it rude and out of line. rip wasn't meant literally either. I didn't know what other word to use. Sorry!


 
Poom belts which are a junior BB in Korea are giving out all the time at any age. Then at 15 it can be transfer to an adult without any more test. Just fill out the proper paperwork and pay the tramsfer fee.


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## Tez3

terryl965 said:


> Poom belts which are a junior BB in Korea are giving out all the time at any age. Then at 15 it can be transfer to an adult without any more test. Just fill out the proper paperwork and pay the tramsfer fee.


 
Would you say that Korean children at 15 are perhaps more mature than western children? When I was 15 although I stayed on to go on to further education, 15 was the school leaving age, you left school and went into the workplace and were treated as an adult even if it was an apprenticeship. Admittedly you couldn't drink, marry or drive but you did pay tax and take on work responsibilites.  Now we think 18 is the age you should be doing all this.


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## MasterWright

I try to have faith that the quality of a school is up to a certain level of competence for rank given. 

At my school a five year old only tests when he or she can do the same requirements as an adult. Self Defense,sparring & kicking teqniques,forms etc. Usually it takes them longer to go up a level. 

If I don't reward the student I think it would be wrong. Some of the younger ones may not pay attention and be easily distracted, so they will not move up as quickly. 

In the World Taekowndo Federation a person does not start all over when they test for a Dan over the age of 15. For example if a student holds a 2nd Poom Dan at 14 and tests for a 3rd Dan at 16, This person holds an adult 3rd Dan. It is possible for your Master to have these previos Poom Dans re-issued as adult by the Kukkiwon. I'm not sure there is a fee, though.


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## Kwan Jang

I've just come back from a multi-style instructors conference and one of the round table topics was how to retain black belt students and promote high standards for black belts. During this round table, the topic of junior black belts came up and there was a group discussion on people's feelings on this. There was no one there who promoted children of Li'l Dragon age to even a junior black belt level and that was universally condemned by all in attendance. 

What came out was that there are some schools that do have a modified or easier curriculum with simpler requirements for kids. And y'know what? These were the ones who were having the most trouble retaining black belts past the time they were given their belts. OTOH, the schools that had the junior black belts earn their belts going through the same requirements as the adults were the schools that were the ones who were keeping them, in many cases for years and years (often decades).

The panel members for the round table on black belt retention were well known as leaders in the MA industry for having high numbers of advanced black belts. Each had at least 50 direct, active students under them who had reached master levels (4-5 th dan depending on the system) and those students had been training with them for 20-30(+) years. I don't think it is a coincidence that those instructors also have some of the most vigorous and challenging requirements for black belt in the USA. I have always felt that the quality of my program/school is evident in the quality of my advanced students, especially my black belts. Some of the McDojos/McDojangs are simply belt a belt factory and put out an inferior product to try to give an ignorant public what it thinks it wants. IMO, like any industry (speaking from a business standpoint), you will not have longevity if you don't put out a quality product.

Back to the subject of teaching kids and awarding junior black belts. Our schools begin teaching an age specific program for children 4-7 (if there is enough attention span, we will take the exceptional 3 year old). At this age, research says that this is the time that we will make the biggest impact on a child's life by teaching them the lifeskills and developing positive habits that will truly help to shape who that child will become. In our L'il Dragons class, we break down the our curriculum for 10th-8th gup into five levels for the 6-7 yr. olds and ten levels for the 3-5 yr. olds. The greater emphasis is on building balance, motor skills, and life skills. The kids wear a white belt with a corresponding colored stripe to the belt level of a "big kid" to their level. When they graduate at black dragon, which is equivalent to gold belt in our system, they move into the juniors class at green belt. At this point, they have the same curriculum base as the older kids and adults (kids with jobs) that came up through the regular program, but with a much stronger learning base that the kids who didn't come up this way. BTW, both the kids and their parents are very aware that a Black Dragon belt is FAR from being a black belt. They know that it is equivalent to a gold belt in the regular program and that they are not a black belt. if anything, they are a white belt with a black stripe running through it.

Regarding junior black belts, our association has produced many high level and well known youngsters over the years including Ernie Reyes, Jr. We will on rare occasion promote someone to junior black belt as young as nine or ten if they are truly exceptional, but more commonly at twelve. They are not full dans with us until the age of 18. Our schools come from a traditional TKD base, but have evolved qutie a few years ago into a true MMA system including muay thai, grond striking, NHB, submission grappling, and the FMA's. Our junior black belts go through the same demanding requirements that the adults do. The only exception is that when they spar, they are sparring someone closer to their own size, though bigger than them. Also, on the PT, their two mile run time is 17 minutes and the adult men is 15 and adult women have to make it in 16.

Junior black belts must learn all the same patterns, grapple, kickbox, box, stick and knife work that the adults do. The main difference is that in general, the kids kick higher. They go through the same 10-16 weeks of diet, nutrition and PT that the adults do to prepare for their tests. IMO, if a 10-11 year old can do "a man's work", they should get the reward. One exception is that as a child, while they may assist with teaching younger children (mostly as role models), they are never put in an instructor's position with an adult. Though I have no problem with having a mature 14 year old helping an adult with palgwe 6 or showing them how to improve their side kick. I personally look at it more like a warrant officer in the military. 

As I read through this thread, I noticed some people complained that some schools have third dans at 18. Keep in mind that in judo (y'know, the system that started the belt system in the first place and the rest of just copied), Kimura had EARNED his fifth dan at 18. Also in TKD and TSD, Hwang Kee was the (then) 4th dan Kwan Jang Nim of Moo Duk Kwan at the age of 21. Yes, these were exceptional individuals, but IMO keep the standards and requirements very high and then see what they can grow into if we guide and encourage them (plus give them that swift kick when needed). They just might surprise you.


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## tshadowchaser

Being very old school in my thinking on rank I do not even like to see verry young people walking around with black belts on. 
 My true feeling is that children should have a different ranking system from adults. Make the tigers, storks, eagles, greenor any color dragon in progression but not Black Belts.  
If they need a rank belt for compition let them compet with those that are of the same age and length of training.
When they come of age then test them as an adult and if a 1st or 2nd degree belt is warrented theen award it but please do not make some fifteen year old a master


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## BrandonLucas

tshadowchaser said:


> Being very old school in my thinking on rank I do not even like to see verry young people walking around with black belts on.
> My true feeling is that children should have a different ranking system from adults. Make the tigers, storks, eagles, greenor any color dragon in progression but not Black Belts.
> If they need a rank belt for compition let them compet with those that are of the same age and length of training.
> When they come of age then test them as an adult and if a 1st or 2nd degree belt is warrented theen award it but please do not make some fifteen year old a master


 
I think it should be common knowledge that just because someone makes a 1st or 2nd dan rank doesn't make them a master.  I think that's part of what the problem is with the ranking system...people equate blackbelt with *adult *excellence, instead of *art* excellence.

I don't see a problem with a young teen achieving 1st dan....not as long as they have earned the rank.  I still think that a blackbelt of any age should be made to test under the same conditions...conditions that are *adult* oriented.  If a young adult can pass the test, then he/she has earned the rank, and the number of years they have spent on Earth shouldn't be called into question.

The hard part is setting an age limit on maturity, both physical and mental.  Everyone matures at different levels...although it should be pretty obvious that a 5 year old is not going to be mature enough to handle an adult test for blackbelt.  The *test *is what should be called into question, not the age of the student.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Traditionalist said:


> I said the number 17 because in my original school in korea you have to be 18 to test for a "adult" black belt. We go by a different birthday system there so in America the student would be 17. And I won't even answer the question about the retard queston. I find it rude and out of line. rip wasn't meant literally either. I didn't know what other word to use. Sorry!


Thanks for the clarification.  I know you didn't literally mean that you wanted to rip the belt off.  I was trying more to get at the idea that kiddie blackbelts and undeserving blackbelts of any age are not at fault for the belt they have, but that it is the instructors who promoted them that should be the targets of any ire.  

Regarding the retard comment, I believe that Mango used the term retarded, not retard:



mango.man said:


> I am just curious if you have ever had the urge to rip the black belt off of an adult for any reason. Say perhaps a retarded adult at age 30 but with the brain capacity and behavior of a 10 year old. Would you rip his or her black belt away and tell them that they are not worthy of the rank? Just wondering.


The term retarded was an acceptable technical term for a very long time.  Using it in this fashion is very different from using the pejorative, 'retard.'  

Daniel


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