# Eyes of Hate



## INDYFIGHTER (Apr 16, 2007)

I've noticed that people who are really willing to throw down with the intent of hurting you are usually easily identifiable.  I see them sizing up the guys next to them and the hate in their eyes.  Then on the oppisite side I've seen their counterparts.  The average guy who's just out having a goodtime when one of the these guys decides to push him.  These are the ones who's responses surprise you because in the same amount of time it takes to turn your shoulder and walk away one can instead inflict devistating damage.   I've seen guys get dropped in seconds, on both sides.  

I've learned to never ignore anyone, to look them in the eye and when in doubt, smile and ask "How it's going?".


----------



## kidswarrior (Apr 16, 2007)

INDYFIGHTER said:


> I've learned to never ignore anyone, to look them in the eye and when in doubt, smile and ask "How it's going?".


 
Yep, does the trick every time. You can see the tension melt away as the smile comes up. I use this with everyone, including every hardcore OG I pass on the street. It's worked _every_ time.


----------



## kidswarrior (Apr 16, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Yep, does the trick every time. You can see the tension melt away as the smile comes up. I use this with everyone, including every hardcore OG I pass on the street. It's worked _every_ time.



Whoever repped me for this, thank you. Would love to get a PM to confirm, unless you want to stay anonymous.


----------



## MJS (Apr 16, 2007)

INDYFIGHTER said:


> I've noticed that people who are really willing to throw down with the intent of hurting you are usually easily identifiable. I see them sizing up the guys next to them and the hate in their eyes. Then on the oppisite side I've seen their counterparts. The average guy who's just out having a goodtime when one of the these guys decides to push him. These are the ones who's responses surprise you because in the same amount of time it takes to turn your shoulder and walk away one can instead inflict devistating damage. I've seen guys get dropped in seconds, on both sides.
> 
> I've learned to never ignore anyone, to look them in the eye and when in doubt, smile and ask "How it's going?".


 
I see those types of people all the time.  I too, look at people, but the difference is, I'm not looking at them with the attitude that I want to beat them up, but to just be aware of whats going on around me.  I'll admit that there have been a few times when I've caught the eye of one of the 'tough guys' and was met with "What are you looking at?"  Ignoring them or saying "No problem, I thought you looked like someone I knew." usually solved the problem.


----------



## kidswarrior (Apr 16, 2007)

MJS said:


> I'll admit that there have been a few times when I've caught the eye of one of the 'tough guys' and was met with "What are you looking at?"  Ignoring them or saying "No problem, I thought you looked like someone I knew." usually solved the problem.



That's a great self-defense lesson, Mike. :asian:


----------



## Drac (Apr 16, 2007)

INDYFIGHTER said:


> I've learned to never ignore anyone, to look them in the eye and when in doubt, smile and ask "How it's going?".


 
When working in the inner city I use the "What's happening" line and it works..


----------



## still learning (Apr 18, 2007)

Hello, Many times similing helps too!  Don't be a smart a-- at the same time.

Great idea's from the people above.  The whole idea is not to escalate the situtions, be able to walk away with no problems.

Aloha,  (throw a kiss instead) ? ? ? ? ? NOT!


----------



## tshadowchaser (Apr 18, 2007)

> smile and ask "How it's going?".


yep and that has saved my rear end when walking on bad streets a few times also


----------



## tradrockrat (Apr 18, 2007)

Drac said:


> When working in the inner city I use the "What's happening" line and it works..



Used the ole head lift with a "sup?" myself.  Works well.


----------



## shesulsa (Apr 18, 2007)

Yes! A friendly smile and a nod or "Hi" or "Morning" or other generic greeting lets people know you noticed them, that you're paying attention.

I love MJS's comeback line, too - very appropriate.


----------



## Skip Cooper (Apr 19, 2007)

Drac said:


> When working in the inner city I use the "What's happening" line and it works..


 
Haven't been to the inner city since the 1970's, huh?




tradrockrat said:


> Used the ole head lift with a "sup?" myself. Works well.


 
That's more like today...


I'm just kidding guys, I think that greeting them works because it shows that you are not timid. It demonstrates power, because weakness is what is preyed upon by the bad guys. They are never really looking for a real fight, only a fight that they can win quickly and easily.  In my experience, if you look away and try to ignore their prescense, then they feel you are afraid and thus an easy mark. If you look at them square in the eyes, yet not in a threatening way, they are easily put off...unless of course if they happen to be psychopaths.


----------



## Skip Cooper (Apr 19, 2007)

MJS said:


> I see those types of people all the time. I too, look at people, but the difference is, I'm not looking at them with the attitude that I want to beat them up, but to just be aware of whats going on around me. I'll admit that there have been a few times when I've caught the eye of one of the 'tough guys' and was met with "What are you looking at?" Ignoring them or saying "No problem, I thought you looked like someone I knew." usually solved the problem.


 
What a great reply. I have been in many scrapes in my youth because there is no safe answer to that question. If you answer "...nothing" then you insult the guy and the fight is on. If you answer "...I'm looking at you!" then again, the incident escalates to an altercation. I have tried ignoring them, but that seems to irratate the situation also.

There is indeed alot of wisdom here on MT.


----------



## kidswarrior (Apr 19, 2007)

Skip Cooper said:


> Haven't been to the inner city since the 1970's, huh?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good points, *Skip*. There is one other possibility that might explain why looking these guys in the eye with a friendly--although not submissive--greeting might diffuse things. I've found that many of them feel from experience that mainstream society doesn't really 'see' them. So, since the '_Haves_' don't recognize them as anything but troublemakers, then preying on the _Haves _is all good (You don't 'see' me, I don't repect you). But recognizing them as fellow human beings, rather than fearing them as potential criminals, tends to let them know I see them. They appreciate this recognition, as we all do, and show it.


----------



## Carol (Apr 19, 2007)

I've had the best luck with ignoring people and avoiding eye contact.   I've received advice to the contrary and found that anything that stimulates the other person in to conversation is usually more trouble than its worth.


----------



## shesulsa (Apr 19, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> I've had the best luck with ignoring people and avoiding eye contact.   I've received advice to the contrary and found that anything that stimulates the other person in to conversation is usually more trouble than its worth.


While you're not wrong, I don't think everyone else is either.

I think it really depends on the situation - you get to a point where you have a "feel" for what's the right thing to do.

I most specifically remember walking in a store in the evening hours to find myself being suddenly followed closely and swiftly by a male who outsized me significantly.  Now, I make a general practice of walking quickly, so to be followed SO closely, SO swiftly by someone who apparently came out of nowhere was extremely suspicious to me.  Once  inside the doors and near other people I stepped widely to the side and turned to let the guy pass.  He was walking right towards me with a determined look on his face.  I returned the same look and said loudly and firmly, "Can I HELP you?"  He started walking the other way immediately.  

There have been, however, situations where I found myself in unexpected circumstances where I knew the best course of action would be to avoid eye contact, acknowledgement of any kind.

:idunno:  Like I said, I think there's a "feel" to the situation at hand.


----------



## Carol (Apr 19, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> While you're not wrong, I don't think everyone else is either.
> 
> I think it really depends on the situation - you get to a point where you have a "feel" for what's the right thing to do.




Couldn't agree more.  :asian:


----------



## Skip Cooper (Apr 19, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Good points, *Skip*. There is one other possibility that might explain why looking these guys in the eye with a friendly--although not submissive--greeting might diffuse things. I've found that many of them feel from experience that mainstream society doesn't really 'see' them. So, since the '_Haves_' don't recognize them as anything but troublemakers, then preying on the _Haves _is all good (You don't 'see' me, I don't repect you). But recognizing them as fellow human beings, rather than fearing them as potential criminals, tends to let them know I see them. They appreciate this recognition, as we all do, and show it.


 
Yes, I see your point. The actual validation of their presense confirms that you see them and thus have respect for their existence.


----------



## MJS (Apr 19, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> Yes! A friendly smile and a nod or "Hi" or "Morning" or other generic greeting lets people know you noticed them, that you're paying attention.
> 
> I love MJS's comeback line, too - very appropriate.


 


Skip Cooper said:


> What a great reply. I have been in many scrapes in my youth because there is no safe answer to that question. If you answer "...nothing" then you insult the guy and the fight is on. If you answer "...I'm looking at you!" then again, the incident escalates to an altercation. I have tried ignoring them, but that seems to irratate the situation also.
> 
> There is indeed alot of wisdom here on MT.


 
Thank you both. :asian: I used that line about a year ago when I was out walking my dog thru my condo complex. A car with two guys, probably in their 20s drove by. Both occupants looked at me as they drove by, so thinking that maybe it was someone I knew or someone that knew me, I looked back. Thinking nothing of it, I kept walking. Next thing I hear is, "Hey, you got a ****in' problem?" I stopped, turned around and saw the passenger out of the car. I replied, "Nope, thought you looked familiar, thats all." I stood there for a minute, thinking I'd get a reply back, but nothing. Now, that could be because that reply was good enough for him, or he saw my dog, a Shepherd/Husky mix, who was also looking back at him, and maybe he figured he didn't want to risk a bite. In any case, I turned around and continued my walk. 

Mike


----------



## Shaderon (Apr 19, 2007)

A good point was made above a few posts,  there's a lot of thugs out there who have felt little natural respect from people and they think the only way to get it is to enforce it.  Showing them a little of that natural respect, by acknowledging them, saying you thought they were familiar or even just smiling is usually enough to gratify that respect craving.

However, when you get someone who is really after you for some reason like with Shesulsa, then the respect does nothing, it's not what they are after, you have to use different tactics then like Shesulsa did.


----------



## JBrainard (Apr 19, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Good points, *Skip*. There is one other possibility that might explain why looking these guys in the eye with a friendly--although not submissive--greeting might diffuse things. I've found that many of them feel from experience that mainstream society doesn't really 'see' them. So, since the '_Haves_' don't recognize them as anything but troublemakers, then preying on the _Haves _is all good (You don't 'see' me, I don't repect you). But recognizing them as fellow human beings, rather than fearing them as potential criminals, tends to let them know I see them. They appreciate this recognition, as we all do, and show it.


 
That's pretty much what I do. I look them in the eye, grin, and give them a nod of respect. It has never got me into trouble. When I've done this, a few times they have smiled and said 'sup'.
I think it's dead on that simply showing them that you recognize and respect them as human beings goes a long way in and of itself.


----------



## kidswarrior (Apr 19, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> ]I've had the best luck with ignoring people and avoiding eye contact. I've received advice to the contrary and found that anything that stimulates the other person in to conversation is usually more trouble than its worth.



Excellent point. While I want to show some humanity, do not want to start a relationship! (Read: give a predator any reason to think I'm weak/prey)



shesulsa said:


> While you're not wrong, I don't think everyone else is either.
> 
> I think it really depends on the situation - you get to a point where you have a "feel" for what's the right thing to do.
> 
> :idunno:  Like I said, I think there's a "feel" to the situation at hand.



_Very _incisive.



			
				Shaderon said:
			
		

> A good point was made above a few posts, there's a lot of thugs out there who have felt little natural respect from people and they think the only way to get it is to enforce it. Showing them a little of that natural respect, by acknowledging them, saying you thought they were familiar or even just smiling is usually enough to gratify that respect craving.
> 
> However, when you get someone who is really after you for some reason like with Shesulsa, then the respect does nothing, it's not what they are after, you have to use different tactics then like Shesulsa did.



Thank you, Women of the MA, for reminding us it's a whole different ball game for females in our society. I have to admit I was thinking/writing as a male in my earlier post.  :disgust: But these later posts filled in the huge gaps I left very nicely.


----------



## Skip Cooper (Apr 19, 2007)

Yes, I agree with _kidswarrior, _things are different for women. While guys are always posturing, whether they know it or not. If a woman tries to follow our advice of maintaining eye contact and greeting the possible threat...this could be misconstrued as interest. And when the interest is not reciprocated, this could lead to more problems.

Excellent point, ladies.


----------



## Sukerkin (Apr 19, 2007)

A very interesting thread with good points being put across all over the place :tup:.

As I think *shesulsa* said first, you have to get an instant 'read' on the circumstance and respond as you feel appropriate.  

Some 'aggressors' are merely looking for validation of their existence or their 'strength'.  If that's what they want, then let them have it.  If you allow your own hackles to rise, a fight ensues and you deck them, then all you have done is beat up a fellow human i.e. they wont change because you beat them and it could've all been avoided with a little pleasantry.  For myself, this has often amounted to no more than a quizzical look in response to a taunting enquiry and keeping on walking at the same pace.

Others are more tricky.  Some want a fight and they don't care who with.  With these, if subservience works then I have no compunction about giving them their sense of dominance - it doesn't dent my sense of self worth and saves me having to break limbs (done it once, don't want to do it again).  

If subservience will not work then the next step is nonchalance (almost playing stupid, as if you don't understand the situation) - this is tricky as you're seeking neutral unconcern rather than condescension.  I'm told by non-MA people who've been with me in such scenarios that I'm not very good at this - apparently I give a distinct aura of "You're not good enough, mate", which is not what I intend at all .  All I know is that it hasn't ended in violence; that's good enough for me.

If none of the above seems applicable, then you're in a dangerous circumstance as your 'read' on the other person is that they are seriously intent on harm.   It's still worth a play of the "I'm no challenge, you'd have more fun attacking someone else" card but, with this kind of predator, defusion is probably not going to work.  Break his leg and run away is, sadly, the best I've come up with under such duress :embarassed deeply:.


----------



## INDYFIGHTER (Apr 20, 2007)

Preditors always seekout the weakest prey.  You never see two 'big guys' pushing each other around.  They talk crap behind each others backs and then get in the face of the next little guy that walks by and take it out on him.  Running your mouth to in my bar will get you thrown out just as fast as a push or a punch.


----------



## bushidomartialarts (Apr 20, 2007)

Seems to me that Carol's experience and that of most of the other posters is there simply because of gender.  Sucks, but probably true.

Two strange men walk towards each other.  There's a subconscious idea in the back of the head "does this fella mean me harm?".  A sincere grin and greeting will defuse that idea in most people.

A man and a woman walk towards each other.  The woman has a (probably more than subconcious) idea "does this man mean me harm?".  Meanwhile, the man's subconcious thought is "can i have sex with this woman?".  A sincere grin and eye contact in that scenario could be taken as a yes....which leads to more trouble than it's worth.

Exceptions in all cases, natch, but it probably goes a long way towards explaining the two very different experiences.

Shesulsa's anecdote, for instance, was aggressive eye contact with no friendliness at all.  Which answers 'no' to the subconscious question.  The same behavior in a man would answer 'yes' to 'does he mean me harm', thus creating a problem.

Just my two cents.


----------



## seasoned (Apr 30, 2007)

Eye contact does work like a charm. Next time your driving and are trying to get into a line of traffic if you make eye contact and motion nicely, in you go. Try pushing your way in and it is road rage in the making.


----------



## seasoned (Apr 30, 2007)

MJS said:


> Thank you both. :asian: I used that line about a year ago when I was out walking my dog thru my condo complex. A car with two guys, probably in their 20s drove by. Both occupants looked at me as they drove by, so thinking that maybe it was someone I knew or someone that knew me, I looked back. Thinking nothing of it, I kept walking. Next thing I hear is, "Hey, you got a ****in' problem?" I stopped, turned around and saw the passenger out of the car. I replied, "Nope, thought you looked familiar, thats all." I stood there for a minute, thinking I'd get a reply back, but nothing. Now, that could be because that reply was good enough for him, or he saw my dog, a Shepherd/Husky mix, who was also looking back at him, and maybe he figured he didn't want to risk a bite. In any case, I turned around and continued my walk.
> 
> Mike


 
Good one Mike, something about a dog and his best friend. "owner"


----------



## Skip Cooper (May 2, 2007)

seasoned said:


> Eye contact does work like a charm. Next time your driving and are trying to get into a line of traffic if you make eye contact and motion nicely, in you go. Try pushing your way in and it is road rage in the making.


 
In Houston, the only way to merge is to push your way in. Otherwise, you will be sitting on the shoulder of the freeway until the traffic clears. I love the "I don't see you looking at me" body posture that these drivers have. They avoid all eye contact...if they don't see me then I don't exist.


----------



## thardey (May 2, 2007)

I think that realizing how people see you is as important as properly recognizing what people are trying to accomplish.

I was a little guy in High School, about 150 lbs. and I had to deal with certain situations in certain ways. If somebody pushed me, I _had_ to push back, or I looked like a target. Now I weigh 240 lbs., and I can usually get away with making eye contact, and giving the "'sup?" 

Also, I've been told that I look like a "nice guy" even though I have a shaved head and a dark goatee (I look like a choir boy when I grow out my hair, shave, and wear my glasses). That changes how I respond to people as well, it makes it easier for me show respect to "touchy" guys. Even though they respect my size, I'm not threatening, apparently.

A friend of mine quit shaving his head because people kept telling him it made him "look like a racist" (against Hispanics). I've been to Mexico a couple of times with a shaved head, and the kids there loved it. It's just something about the way we look that makes people feel differently. You have to adjust for it.

I was talking about this to an FBI friend of mine who summed it up quite well:

"Everytime I walk into a room, I take my impressions of who's in there, and I take their impressions of me. How do they see me? Am I a threat? Am I a target? Or am I just another guy?"


----------



## thardey (May 2, 2007)

Also, regarding the eye contact thing --

Sometimes, if I think that someone will react negatively to direct eye contact, I look at their eyes, but not into them, and then look beyond them, as though they simply passed through my line of vision.

That way, they know that I am aware of them, but that they don't interest me.

It's like hunting -- one the first lessons my dad taught me was "never look your prey (a deer, in this case) in the eyes, look at them or around them, but if you make eye contact, then they know you have seen them, and they feel threatened."


----------



## bayonet (May 13, 2007)

Hawaii has a bad methamphetamine problem, according to the police, probably the worst in the nation. A direct look means the fight is on. I have seen it way to many times working security. I have seen the local PD hit a meth head with a taser and then it took five cops to cuff him. I agree with all the aforemetioned suggestions but sometimes a crazy look of your own with a very brisk walk and a don't f*** with me posture also works. Just my 2 cents.


----------

