# BJJ Teacher Roy Dean on Aikido....



## Spinedoc (Dec 29, 2015)

Great link...

http://www.grapplearts.com/roy-dean-bjj-aikido-judo-wrestling-and-the-martial-artists-path/

_There are so many lessons in Aikido that I’ve been able to translate over to jiu jitsu of all kinds, and BJJ.

So Aikido, like all martial arts, goes in and out of popularity. But it’s powerful. And if you get together with a really good practitioner of Aikido, it can be impressive and it’s not to be underestimated. That’s the first rule of being a martial artist. Respect everyone. Don’t underestimate anybody because that can be a bad day for you.

And particularly against Judo players at that time, when you read stories about the Judo guys challenging Morihei Ueshiba, the Judo guys, like Kenji Tomiki, when he went and attacked him, he was like, “This old man, I’m not going to attack this old man.” [Ueshiba] said “No, go ahead and attack me.” So when Kenji Tomiki attacked him, he found himself thrown to the other end of the room. And he was like, “Wait a minute. Alright, let me do that again.” He’s like, “Okay, you can do it again.” So [Tomiki] attacked him again with everything he had and he mysteriously found himself thrown to the other side of the room. Then he bowed and said I would humbly like to become your student.

And so what was that? Well, a lot of it is technological superiority. I’m not saying the techniques of Aikido are superior to those of Judo. I’m saying that he was using a technology, basically a form of standing grappling. As soon as somebody goes in to reach for you, you blend with it. In Judo, you just grab each other and then you begin. But because he was working at a different range of motion, but really no different than Royce Gracie in the first couple UFCs. Because he was working in that altered range of combat that the Judo guy wasn’t familiar with, he had, clearly, the upper hand.

So, I think that goes a long way in explaining a lot of the stories of Aikido being able to best Judo in a few challenge matches in the early days of the art._


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## Hanzou (Dec 29, 2015)

No offense to Mr. Dean, but until we see an Aikidoka enter MMA and do well his comparison here rings a little hollow.

I mean on one hand we have a legend/story told by Tomiki, and on the other we have multiple verifiable incidents that occurred in history that we can view and analyze.

I mean, I'm not calling Tomiki a liar or anything, but the evidence simply doesn't back up his claims here. If Ueshiba's Aikido was so dominating over Judo, why did people continue to take Judo? When Catch Wrestlers beat Judoka, many Judoka actively incorporated Catch into their fighting style. Maeda, the grandfather of Bjj being a prime example.

Further, why don't we see Aikidoka dominating Judoka today?


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## lklawson (Dec 29, 2015)

Spinedoc said:


> And particularly against Judo players at that time, when you read stories about the Judo guys challenging Morihei Ueshiba, the Judo guys, like Kenji Tomiki, when he went and attacked him, he was like, “This old man, I’m not going to attack this old man.” [Ueshiba] said “No, go ahead and attack me.” So when Kenji Tomiki attacked him, he found himself thrown to the other end of the room. And he was like, “Wait a minute. Alright, let me do that again.” He’s like, “Okay, you can do it again.” So [Tomiki] attacked him again with everything he had and he mysteriously found himself thrown to the other side of the room. Then he bowed and said I would humbly like to become your student.


I'll have to double check in _Aikido Tradition and the Competitive Edge_, by Nariyama and Shishida, but I'm pretty sure that story is apocryphal.



> I’m saying that he was using a technology, basically a form of standing grappling. As soon as somebody goes in to reach for you, you blend with it. In Judo, you just grab each other and then you begin. But because he was working at a different range of motion, but really no different than Royce Gracie in the first couple UFCs. Because he was working in that altered range of combat that the Judo guy wasn’t familiar with, he had, clearly, the upper hand.


Hmmm... This is not how I was taught.  Judo, for sport, begins at the grips.  Judo for self defense begins well before that, so I have been taught.  This agrees with research that I have done on early judo as well.  It also agrees with the internal history of Danzan Ryu which claims that Okazaki learned non-sport/self defense Judo while in Japan and codified that as Danzan Ryu.

I guess it's hard to fault anyone for not knowing that.  Few people teach (and fewer practice) some of what's in Judo's "official" curriculum.  How many Judo instructors regularly teach Judo's atemi waza, leg locks, or the old "stomping" style of osoto gari?



> So, I think that goes a long way in explaining a lot of the stories of Aikido being able to best Judo in a few challenge matches in the early days of the art.


I'm also inclined to believe those stories were largely apocryphal as well.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Dec 29, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> No offense to Mr. Dean, but until we see an Aikidoka enter MMA and do well his comparison here rings a little hollow.
> 
> I mean on one hand we have a legend/story told by Tomiki, and on the other we have multiple verifiable incidents that occurred in history that we can view and analyze.
> 
> ...


In the old days, so it is claimed, Ueshiba supposedly wouldn't train anyone who didn't have a solid base in another martial art.  Today, almost no one starts Aikido with a solid fighting foundation in some other art.

Forgive me, Aikidoka, but I've come to believe that Aikido is Algebra to everything else' basic Arithmetic.  Aikido has such a narrowly focused range that, in order to really understand and utilize what is being taught, you usually need a good base in fighting.  Once you can fight, then you are prepared to learn the subtlety of Aikido.  Until then it's just people trying to learn to do tricks.  

No, this isn't a popular notion among Aikidoka.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## drop bear (Dec 29, 2015)

If you fight you can get away with being good at a limited number of techniques. Akido guy really only needed to be exceptional at one or two throws to monster everybody in the room.

Don't know if it was a true tale But there is potential that it could have been.

Otherwise I am happy to Spar akido guys in the hope one will towel me up and I can learn stuff.


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## Spinedoc (Dec 29, 2015)

Kirk,

I've heard that before...the algebra thing, and I would tend to agree. I've studied multiple other martial arts, wrestled, trained boxing for awhile, and I have to say, that Aikido is the most subtle and nuanced to use. At least against a resisting, non compliant opponent. WHICH we do. I cannot speak for all dojos, but we increase resistance over time.

The reason I found this, was that I have been training BJJ in addition to Aikido and Iaido for a little while. Why? Well, primarily, because the BJJ class is right before the Aikido class at the same dojo. I can get a 3 hour workout in then and thought it would help my fitness/conditioning, etc.

What I have found is interesting. Speaking for myself...BJJ and Aikido are the same. At least in principle. It's all about balance, position, control, speed, etc. They are essentially 2 sides of the same coin. I feel that my Aikido has improved, and I am progressing more quickly in BJJ because of my Aikido.

Thankfully, my BJJ instructor is a cool guy, and has a lot of respect for Aikido. He says "Same principles, different focus".....

YMMV.

Mike


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## Spinedoc (Dec 29, 2015)

Also, when in my BJJ class I surprised one of the senior BJJ students with a surprise nikyo. He was rather impressed and asked me to show him how to do that.

Surprise nikyo is the best. LOL. Fun in aikido as well. One of my Aikido sensei's always says "There's always another way". So, working with him on morotedori kokyunage, and he was resisting to the point where I simply couldn't move him......so, went from morotedori kokyunage to morotedori nikyo.....He was impressed after he got up....LOL.


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## Spinedoc (Dec 29, 2015)

lklawson said:


> I guess it's hard to fault anyone for not knowing that.  Few people teach (and fewer practice) some of what's in Judo's "official" curriculum.  How many Judo instructors regularly teach Judo's atemi waza, leg locks, or the old "stomping" style of osoto gari?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Yeah, Aikido also contains stuff not taught in most Aikido dojos. For example, kick defenses and ankle locks. Many Aikido dojos don't ever practice them, and while my dojo probably does not practice them as much as we should, we do know of them, and do practice them from time to time.

It's hard, because the ukemi for practicing them is actually quite difficult....

BUT, they exist within the Aikikai Aikido curriculum.


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## kuniggety (Dec 29, 2015)

Spinedoc said:


> Also, when in my BJJ class I surprised one of the senior BJJ students with a surprise nikyo. He was rather impressed and asked me to show him how to do that.



When I was doing a gauntlet roll for my blue belt in BJJ, I had a guy catch me in a wrist lock. I was tired but hanging on through all of the other white belts. Then I get this new guy and I pull him into my guard. From inside my guard he pressed my arm down and I thought he was going for an Americana and it was like I got this but then he suddenly grabs my hand with his other hand and wrist locks me. Totally unexpected and I tapped. Turns out he was an aikidoka.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 29, 2015)

Spinedoc said:


> _he was working in that altered range of combat that the Judo guy wasn’t familiar with, he had, clearly, the upper hand... the stories of Aikido being able to best Judo in a few challenge matches in the early days of the art._


I'm not a Judo guy, but I don't believe this is a true story for the following reasons:

1. In Judo, you train to use your skill to deal with resistance opponent. In Aikido, you only train your skill to deal with cooperated opponent.
2. Judo guys has leg skills such as block, sweep, scoop, hook, lift, spring, twist, sticky, ... Those leg skills are not trained in Aikido.
3. Judo has body contact techniques (back touch chest) such as hip throw, shoulder throw, bear hug, waist wrap, ... Aikido has no such body contact techniques.
4. Judo has tournament that Judo guys can use it to develop their techniques. Aikido doesn't even have tournament environment for their guys to test their skill.
5. In Judo, there exist no technique that you can just hold on your opponent's wrist and throw him. In Aikido, such technique does exist. But in reality, nobody has ever seen such "wrist control only" throw worked in MMA yet.
6. I have seen good judo guys competed in wrestling tournament and won. I have not seen any Aikido guys ever win in any wrestling tournament yet.
7. ...


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 29, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> If Ueshiba's Aikido was so dominating over Judo, why did people continue to take Judo?


Could it be perhaps that many people like Judo more than Aikido? BJJ dominated over the other arts (not actually the whole arts, just those specific competitors) during the first 4 UFC's yet people still continued to to take those styles. That is why your logic is flawed.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 29, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Further, why don't we see Aikidoka dominating Judoka today?


Agree with you 100% there. It's great national honor to win the Olympic Judo gold metal. If Aikido can be used to "enhance" Judo, we should see today's Olympic Judo guys all cross train Aikido, but we just haven't seen that happen today.

As far as I know, the Judo "grip fight" is not taught until in the advance training level. Does "grip fight" ever taught in Aikido? I don't think so.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 29, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm not a Judo guy, but I don't believe this is a true story for the following reasons:


It may also be true depending on how you define a 'few challenge matches'.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 29, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If Aikido can be used to "enhance" Judo, we should see today's Olympic Judo guys all cross train Aikido, but we just haven't seen that happen today.


I don't know much about the Olympics but is t it allowed in Olympic Judo to use techniques from other styles?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 29, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> I don't know much about the Olympics but is t it allowed in Olympic Judo to use techniques from other styles?


In China, the Olympic Judo coach Wang De-Yin taught the Chinese national Olympic Judo team in

- Judo,
- Chinese wrestling, and
- western wrestling.

As far as I know, Wang didn't teach his team members any Aikido. Those Olympic Judo coach would try anything to help his team to win.

The grip fight is not that emphasized in daily Judo tournament. But in Olympic Judo, the "grip fight" is getting more and more emphasized.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 29, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm not a Judo guy, but I don't believe this is a true story for the following reasons:
> 
> 1. In Judo, you train to use your skill to deal with resistance opponent. In Aikido, you only train your skill to deal with cooperated opponent.
> 2. Judo guys has leg skills such as block, sweep, scoop, hook, lift, spring, twist, sticky, ... Those leg skills are not trained in Aikido.
> ...


1.  Yes Aikido does
2.Yes Aikido does 
3. Yes Aikido does
4 Yes Aikido does
5 MMA is not the final say on all things 
6Have you obsereved every Wresteling tournament?


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## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Could it be perhaps that many people like Judo more than Aikido? BJJ dominated over the other arts (not actually the whole arts, just those specific competitors) during the first 4 UFC's yet people still continued to to take those styles. That is why your logic is flawed.



Yet Bjj also went from obscurity into becoming one of the most popular martial arts in the world, and becoming a staple of NHB/MMA competition because of the first UFCs. It also forced people to recognize that grappling is an important part of fighting.

Bjj's impact on the martial arts landscape is pretty easy to see.

What's interesting currently is how Bjj and MMA are impacting arts like Aikido. I've read a few articles stating that Aikido is losing popularity because of its apparent lack of fighting ability.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 30, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Yet Bjj also went from obscurity into becoming one of the most popular martial arts in the world,


Not even top 5


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 30, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Yet Bjj also went from obscurity into becoming one of the most popular martial arts in the world, and becoming a staple of NHB/MMA competition because of the first UFCs. It also forced people to recognize that grappling is an important part of fighting.
> 
> Bjj's impact on the martial arts landscape is pretty easy to see.
> 
> What's interesting currently is how Bjj and MMA are impacting arts like Aikido. I've read a few articles stating that Aikido is losing popularity because of its apparent lack of fighting ability.


Most people don't study a particular martial art because of its popularity they study them because those individual arts have what they want in an art.


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## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Most people don't study a particular martial art because of its popularity they study them because those individual arts have what they want in an art.



That was never my argument. My argument was that Bjj's dominance in the UFC had a profound impact on Bjj itself, and martial arts in general. Something that didn't happen with Aikido, which would seem strange if it was truly stomping Judo.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 30, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> omething that didn't happen with Aikido, which would seem strange if it was truly stomping Judo.


And that was not the original argument, the original argument was that Aikido practitioners dominated in a 'few challenge matches' (whatever constituted 'a few') not that it was 'stomping' Judo overall.


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## Spinedoc (Dec 30, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Most people don't study a particular martial art because of its popularity they study them because those individual arts have what they want in an art.




This ^^^^^^

Most of the Aikidoka that I have met at seminars and trained with like Aikido because of the lack of competition. Most of them are simply not competitive in this part of their lives and why they practice Aikido is for reasons other than winning fights. Many of the Aikidoka I train with seem to have higher educations than the general populace (this is anecdotal), but even in my dojo, our Sensei is a lawyer, we have 2 nurses with advanced degrees, 2 of us with PhD level education, 3 with Master's level education. At first, I thought perhaps that was isolated to just my dojo...but when I go to seminars in other cities, I find that the majority of Aikidoka I meet are professors, lawyers, doctors, etc. I don't have any good explanation why that is, BUT, I can tell you that these are people who, for the most part, are very competitive in their professional lives.....

Perhaps Aikido offers them the opportunity to gain balance.....

Just my thoughts.


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## Steve (Dec 30, 2015)

I think that the point Coach Dean was making is that lack of familiarity with a style or a range or combat can be a significant advantage.  

Whether the story is true or not misses the simple point, I think.  Also relevant, I think, is that Roy dean has black belts in multiple arts, including bjj and aikido.   the message has to do with curiosity and open mindedness, two traits sorely lacking around here lately.


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## Spinedoc (Dec 30, 2015)

Steve said:


> I think that the point Coach Dean was making is that lack of familiarity with a style or a range or combat can be a significant advantage.
> 
> Whether the story is true or not misses the simple point, I think.  Also relevant, I think, is that Roy dean has black belts in multiple arts, including bjj and aikido.   the message has to do with curiosity and open mindedness, two traits sorely lacking around here lately.



Exactly Steve, which is why I started taking BJJ too.....What's funny is....BJJ and Aikido are basically the same, and both seem to complement each other.


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## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> And that was not the original argument, the original argument was that Aikido practitioners dominated in a 'few challenge matches' (whatever constituted 'a few') not that it was 'stomping' Judo overall.



Well that's the same argument I made in that quote.

The issue is that there's zero proof of Aikido winning any challenge matches against anyone. All we have are tall tales about the founder that came from his students. Aikidoka don't accept challenge matches these days either, and that makes those old stories about Akidoka beating people in challenge fights a bit harder to swallow.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 30, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Well that's the same argument I made in that quote.



I'll suggest your delivery style needs to change, because it truly sucks.  Everything you post is abrasive and comes across as denigrating systems other than BJJ or MMA, whether that is your intention or not.  That's an honest criticism.



> The issue is that there's zero proof of Aikido winning any challenge matches against anyone. All we have are tall tales about the founder that came from his students. Aikidoka don't accept challenge matches these days either, and that makes those old stories about Akidoka beating people in challenge fights a bit harder to swallow.



This is a perfect example.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 30, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> I'll suggest your delivery style needs to change, because it truly sucks. Everything you post is abrasive and comes across as denigrating systems other than BJJ or MMA, whether that is your intention or not.


Not to mention making his arguments 'harder to swallow'.


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## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> I'll suggest your delivery style needs to change, because it truly sucks.  Everything you post is abrasive and comes across as denigrating systems other than BJJ or MMA, whether that is your intention or not.  That's an honest criticism.



It's hardly denigrating if its a statement of fact.



> This is a perfect example.



Again, if it's a statement of fact no one should be upset about it.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Again, if it's a statement of fact no one should be upset about it.


When your opinion is presented as indisputable fact people tend to get a little annoyed.


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## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> When your opinion is presented as indisputable fact people tend to get a little annoyed.



Is there some non-anecdotal evidence of Aikido challenge matches that you'd like to share with us?


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## ballen0351 (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Is there some non-anecdotal evidence of Aikido challenge matches that you'd like to share with us?


So you know the entire history of Aikido, every fight, every private sparring match, every student, what happens in every dojo?   Just because its not on You-Tube doesn't mean it didnt happen

Also I dont get the relation between "Challenge Matches" and self defense.  Who cares if I cant win a trophy as long as it can save my life


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## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> So you know the entire history of Aikido, every fight, every private sparring match, every student, what happens in every dojo?   Just because its not on You-Tube doesn't mean it didn't happen



Well we certainly have this little gem;






So we definitely know that that happened.



> Also I don't get the relation between "Challenge Matches" and self defense.  Who cares if I can't win a trophy as long as it can save my life



If you can't stop a takedown in a dojo, you're probably not going to stop a takedown in the streets either.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Well we certainly have this little gem;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ahh yes your Youtube bible 



> If you can't stop a takedown in a dojo, you're probably not going to stop a takedown in the streets either.


thats prob true, so its of your opinion no one training Aikido can stop a take down huh?


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## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> thats prob true, so its of your opinion no one training Aikido can stop a take down huh?



I never said that. I was simply using takedowns as an example. Obviously a 4th dan Aikidoka not being able to stop a sloppy takedown from a mediocre grappler doesn't raise my hopes much, but I'm sure there is an Aikido technique (or series of techniques) specially designed to stop takedowns.

Overall, I would be very interested in seeing how Aikidoka react to standard attacks in a non-demo environment. For whatever reason such videos involving Aikido are very rare, which is why I find this video so interesting.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> I would be very interested in seeing how Aikidoka react to standard attacks in a non-demo environment.


So go sign up at a Dojo and learn


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## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> So go sign up at a Dojo and learn



That would be a waste of time and money (especially since it supposedly takes years to get good at Aikido). I'd much rather watch an Aikido expert do it against an expert fighter.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> That would be a waste of time and money (especially since it supposedly takes years to get good at Aikido). I'd much rather watch an Aikido expert do it against an expert fighter.


You cant learn a style from youtube


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## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> You cant learn a style from youtube



And what makes you think that I want to learn Aikido? I simply want to see it operate in a non-demo setting. Bjj and boxing keep me plenty busy.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> And what makes you think that I want to learn Aikido? I simply want to see it operate in a non-demo setting. Bjj and boxing keep me plenty busy.


Why do you care then if your "plenty busy"


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## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Why do you care then if your "plenty busy"



Again, simple interest. I enjoy seeing how different MAs tackle a problem based on their methodology. Which is why I enjoy watching challenge videos like the one above, especially when it's a high ranking practitioner from an under-represented art like Aikido.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Again, simple interest. I enjoy seeing how different MAs tackle a problem based on their methodology. Which is why I enjoy watching challenge videos like the one above, especially when it's a high ranking practitioner from an under-represented art like Aikido.


Videos prove nothing.  I can post a video tomorrow claiming to be anything and edit the video to have whatever outcome I want.


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## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Videos prove nothing.  I can post a video tomorrow claiming to be anything and edit the video to have whatever outcome I want.



Yet the video above doesn't fit that outline. It's clearly unedited beyond the beginning and the end of the challenge, and its clearly taking place in a dojo in Vietnam, just like the description said. Now, if I found the video to be dubious, it would be most helpful if I had more Aikido challenge matches to cross reference with, but I don't.

I mean, I have this;






But that simply reinforces the earlier video I posted, which in turn reinforces my own experiences with Aikido and Judo over the years.

Everything else is simply demonstrations.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Yet the video above doesn't fit that outline. It's clearly unedited beyond the beginning and the end of the challenge, and its clearly taking place in a dojo in Vietnam, just like the description said. Now, if I found the video to be dubious, it would be most helpful if I had more Aikido challenge matches to cross reference with, but I don't.
> 
> I mean, I have this;
> 
> ...


Again how do you know the context of the video? Its not evidence of anything.  I can create a "real looking"  video to serve any agenda I want.  If you had any real purpose other then style bashing you would go find a good Aikido teacher and learn all the answers to your questions.  BUT we both know why your really here and we both know you have no desire to actually learn anything


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## Flying Crane (Dec 31, 2015)

What does any of this matter?  We all know that hanzou doesn't respect anything that isn't found in MMA competition in some way, so the nonsense he spouts shouldn't surprise anyone.  At least he is consistent, I'll give him credit for that.  So why engage the discussion with him?  At all?


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## drop bear (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Is there some non-anecdotal evidence of Aikido challenge matches that you'd like to share with us?



There is akijitsu which is some sort of akido thing but looks like it is trained live.


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## drop bear (Dec 31, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> So you know the entire history of Aikido, every fight, every private sparring match, every student, what happens in every dojo?   Just because its not on You-Tube doesn't mean it didnt happen
> 
> Also I dont get the relation between "Challenge Matches" and self defense.  Who cares if I cant win a trophy as long as it can save my life



Yeah how does that even work as an argument?

I mean would it make more sense so make a judgement on what we know rather than what we don't know. Otherwise I apply that logic and will come up with some insane conclusions.


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## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Again how do you know the context of the video? Its not evidence of anything.  I can create a "real looking"  video to serve any agenda I want.  If you had any real purpose other then style bashing you would go find a good Aikido teacher and learn all the answers to your questions.  BUT we both know why your really here and we both know you have no desire to actually learn anything



Again, it's one of the few sources of fighting Aikido we have on tape that isn't a demonstration. 

No one is style bashing here. It's a FACT that there's almost no recorded evidence of Aikido being utilized in a live environment. It's almost entirely demonstration based, or anecdotal stories.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Well we certainly have this little gem;
> 
> 
> 
> So we definitely know that that happened.


Which you have repeatedly taken out of context and used as an example of something it isn't.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> I mean, I have this;


Which is clearly not a challenge match.


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## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Which you have repeatedly taken out of context and used as an example of something it isn't.



How exactly was that video taken out of context?

It was a challenge match between a high ranking Aikidoka and a Turkish Wrestler. Did I miss anything?


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> . It's a FACT that there's almost no recorded evidence of Aikido being utilized in a live environment. It's almost entirely demonstration based, or anecdotal stories.


I suggest you start at 2:57:


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> It was a challenge match between a high ranking Aikidoka and a Turkish Wrestler. Did I miss anything?


Everything that happened before and after the video was taken, anything they may have discussed and agreed to for starters. You just took the author of the video's word for it that it was a challenge match because it suits your beliefs.

For all anyone knows the Aikido guy let the Turkish wrestler do his thing to make him look good. It also could have been the only time out of ten the Turkish wrestler got the upper hand and the author of the Video (which the Turkish wrestler is the head of) only posted what made them look good.That is probably not what happened but you can't know for sure.


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## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> I suggest you start at 2:57:



Yeah, that's a demo. The part before that was a bunch of guys tackling each other.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, that's a demo.


That was a black belt test not a demo, it's in the title.


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> That was a black belt test not a demo, it's in the title.



LoL!

Thats fine. Still doesn't change what I stated earlier.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Still doesn't change what I stated earlier.


That narrows it down a bit.


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> That narrows it down a bit.



I said that it's a FACT that there's almost no recorded evidence of Aikido being used in a live situation. A blurry video of a Steven Seagal black belt test doesn't change that fact.



RTKDCMB said:


> Everything that happened before and after the video was taken, anything they may have discussed and agreed to for starters. You just took the author of the video's word for it that it was a challenge match because it suits your beliefs.
> 
> For all anyone knows the Aikido guy let the Turkish wrestler do his thing to make him look good. It also could have been the only time out of ten the Turkish wrestler got the upper hand and the author of the Video (which the Turkish wrestler is the head of) only posted what made them look good.That is probably not what happened but you can't know for sure.



All those questions are answered in the video clip. The Aikidoka challenged the wrestler, and it caught him by surprise at first, and when he was challenged again, he was surprised a second time. 

There were no more tussles after those first two. It was pretty clear that they were done when the video ended. Given how the Aikidoka was clearly dominated both times, it's highly doubtful that he would gotten the upper hand if they went a hundred times.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> I said that it's a FACT that there's almost no recorded evidence of Aikido being used in a live situation.



This is true.  Most things in life do not get filmed and posted on YouTube.  So what this means is, we don't have any real idea what may or may not be happening at any given moment, around the world.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Does that bother you?  Do you believe that somehow means something of significance?


----------



## RTKDCMB (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> All those questions are answered in the video clip. The Aikidoka challenged the wrestler, and it caught him by surprise at first, and when he was challenged again, he was surprised a second time.


An 86 second YouTube video, that proves everything right?



Hanzou said:


> There were no more tussles after those first two. It was pretty clear that they were done when the video ended.



Really? And you were there to see that there were no further tussles, spoke to the subjects of the video, saw other videos undeniably taken just after that video showing unequivocally that they were completely done, were privy to their discussion beforehand, have transcripts of exactly what was just said by each person involved or anything like that?

Again you cherry pick what suits you and dismiss what doesn't.


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Yeah how does that even work as an argument?
> 
> I mean would it make more sense so make a judgement on what we know rather than what we don't know. Otherwise I apply that logic and will come up with some insane conclusions.


we can start by not making insane opinions and passing them off as fact,  "well I've never seen it on YouTube so aikido doesn't work"


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2015)

RTKWCMB said:


> An 86 second YouTube video, that proves everything right?



Within that video, yeah it does.



> Really? And you were there to see that there were no further tussles,



There were clearly no more tussles.



> spoke to the subjects of the video,



Why would I need to do that?



> saw other videos undeniably taken just after that video showing unequivocally that they were completely done,



If you have some more Aikidoka vs wrestler/grappler videos please post them. I would be very interested in seeing them. As would the rest of the grappling community at large.



> were privy to their discussion beforehand, have transcripts of exactly what was just said by each person involved or anything like that?



None of which I need to deduct a logical conclusion from the evidence at hand.



> Again you cherry pick what suits you and dismiss what doesn't.



Again, if you have more footage of Aikidoka going against grapplers please post it. Every Aikido vs grappler vid I've seen ends pretty much the same way.

At this point it sounds like you're making excuses for Aikido. How unfortunate.


----------



## lklawson (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> If you have some more Aikidoka vs wrestler/grappler videos please post them. I would be very interested in seeing them. As would the rest of the grappling community at large.


In general, I'm with you on this subject, but on this particular point, no, not even close.

I've seen this argument more times than I can count and here's what I've found.  On the (what seems to be to me comparatively rare) occasions that an Aikidoka seems to do well, it is either dismissed as "anecdotal," "luck," or reasoned that the Aikidoka had a foundation in grappling from some other art.  As an example, I know that the head of Tomiki Aikido in Ohio, Moe Stevens, has a background in Judo and was a High School Wrestling Coach for umpteen years.  If he were to do well, it would be dismissed as "not genuine/pure Aikido" because he would have allegedly really just been using his Judo/Wrestling skills.

While it is true that I believe I have seen many Aikidoka who have not been training in what I believe is a sufficient manner, or exhibited what I believe is a sufficient skill in "fighting," it is also my experience that "the rest of the grappling community at large" has basically already decided what they want to believe and is now wading hip deep in a sea of Confirmation Bias.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2015)

lklawson said:


> In general, I'm with you on this subject, but on this particular point, no, not even close.
> 
> I've seen this argument more times than I can count and here's what I've found.  On the (what seems to be to me comparatively rare) occasions that an Aikidoka seems to do well, it is either dismissed as "anecdotal," "luck," or reasoned that the Aikidoka had a foundation in grappling from some other art.  As an example, I know that the head of Tomiki Aikido in Ohio, Moe Stevens, has a background in Judo and was a High School Wrestling Coach for umpteen years.  If he were to do well, it would be dismissed as "not genuine/pure Aikido" because he would have allegedly really just been using his Judo/Wrestling skills.
> 
> ...



Well what I'm saying is that if we (grapplers) had some objective evidence of someone using pure Aikido to stop grappling takedowns, it would change the way people grapple and help evolve grappling further.

The problem is that EVERY time we see an Aikidoka do "well" they're doing stuff that looks little different than what you'd see in Judo, Bjj, or Wrestling. Then you take a look into their backgrounds and you figure out that the ARE Judo, Bjj, or Wrestling practitioners, and only apply Aikido for finishing moves. No disrespect to Roy Dean, but he's pretty notorious for doing that. Don't get me wrong, he's a phenomenal instructor and a great martial artist, but i  see little in his style that wouldn't be present if he just did Bjj.

Just saying, I think people (especially grapplers) would be THRILLED to see some footage of an Aikidoka wrecking a few wrestlers or judo guys around. If those old tales of the Aikido masters are true, that should be no problem right? Unfortunately, a lot of what I see (and experienced) out of Aikido can be a bit shaky in terms of authenticity and realism.


----------



## Spinedoc (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Well we certainly have this little gem;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dude, the Turkish wrestler video WAS NOT A CHALLENGE. The students there have even indicated as much. I know its presented that way on YouTube….the arbiter of truth. LOL. The Turkish wrestler was there to demonstrate techniques, which is why the Aikido yudansha did not resist at all. It's ALSO why the students clapped. They appreciated the demo and were showing their respect. Would the Aikido guy have beaten, I have no idea, but he wasn't trying to fight him…..


----------



## Skullpunch (Dec 31, 2015)

lklawson said:


> As an example, I know that the head of Tomiki Aikido in Ohio, Moe Stevens, has a background in Judo and was a High School Wrestling Coach for umpteen years.  If he were to do well, it would be dismissed as "not genuine/pure Aikido" because he would have allegedly really just been using his Judo/Wrestling skills.



Actually, I think the argument here would be (or at least is increasingly becoming) that he did well by being a well rounded grappler, and it makes perfect sense that a well rounded grappler may very well do better than a one-dimensional one, and in the grappling community I think most (or at least an increasing number) would be perfectly fine with stating that aikido contributed to that.  The main thing that would be up for debate is to what degree, and if we want to make this about style vs. style then which of those arts he coudl have most done without would also enter the fray.

It's like how if Holly Holm vs. Ronda Rousey had happened 10 years ago everyone and their mom would be calling it boxing >>>>> judo but today a lot more people know that it was really more a case of the more well rounded fighter beating the less well rounded fighter.


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2015)

Spinedoc said:


> Dude, the Turkish wrestler video WAS NOT A CHALLENGE. The students there have even indicated as much. I know its presented that way on YouTube….the arbiter of truth. LOL. The Turkish wrestler was there to demonstrate techniques, which is why the Aikido yudansha did not resist at all. It's ALSO why the students clapped. They appreciated the demo and were showing their respect. Would the Aikido guy have beaten, I have no idea, but he wasn't trying to fight him…..



Actually he did resist. You definitely saw it during the second attempt because he resisted the first takedown in their second go-around, but wasn't able to resist the second takedown which ended up with him in an arm bar.

When one of our Shotokan black belts got beat down by a visiting kick boxer, we clapped as well. Students clapping when one of their own gets schooled isn't an uncommon occurance.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Actually he did resist. You definitely saw it during the second attempt because he resisted the first takedown in their second go-around, but wasn't able to resist the second takedown which ended up with him in an arm bar.
> 
> When one of our Shotokan black belts got beat down by a visiting kick boxer, we clapped as well. Students clapping when one of their own gets schooled isn't an uncommon occurance.


Anyone who thinks that Turkish wrestling video was a challenge is an idiot. 

Hanzou, you talk a lot of talk.  But episodes like this show that you are all talk.  You know nothing.  If you can't see that this was not a challenge fight, well, you are less than an utter novice.


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Anyone who thinks that Turkish wrestling video was a challenge is an idiot.
> 
> Hanzou, you talk a lot of talk.  But episodes like this show that you are all talk.  You know nothing.  If you can't see that this was not a challenge fight, well, you are less than a complete novice.



You can use whatever language you like. You can call it a friendly sparring contest, or a mutual test of each other's abilities. The results are the same.

Instead of making excuses for the Aikidoka getting beaten, maybe we could discuss why a 4th dan in Aikido got beaten so easily by a mediocre grappler?

Does Aikido have no viable takedown defenses?






Hmmmm......


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> You can use whatever language you like. You can call it a friendly sparring contest, or a mutual test of each other's abilities. The results are the same.
> 
> Instead of making excuses for the Aikidoka getting beaten, maybe we could discuss why a 4th dan in Aikido got beaten so easily by a mediocre grappler?
> 
> ...


Like I said all you care about is style bashing.  Funny I don't see Steve here telling you to knock it off Hmmm......


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Like I said all you care about is style bashing.  Funny I don't see Steve here telling you to knock it off Hmmm......



How is posting a video of an Aikido instructor performing Aikido "style bashing"?


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> How is posting a video of an Aikido instructor performing Aikido "style bashing"?


Ur entire existence here since Sept of 2013 has been nothing but Style bashing.  You want to learn how Aikido defends takedown go take a class.  Other then that go troll Somewhere else


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Ur entire existence here since Sept of 2013 has been nothing but Style bashing.  You want to learn how Aikido defends takedown go take a class.



If no such techniques exists, wouldn't that be a waste of time?

Wouldn't it be easier if you just told me what those techniques were?


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 31, 2015)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

jks9199
Administrator


----------



## drop bear (Dec 31, 2015)

Anyway. You look at the stories of these guys who founded these styles and they are generally weapons in their own right. Grown up hard fought people sparred people, done combat sports. They are generally athletic.

Morihei Ueshiba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And you can reasonably believe they beat people up.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 31, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> If no such techniques exists, wouldn't that be a waste of time?
> 
> Wouldn't it be easier if you just told me what those techniques were?


Nope you do your own work


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2015)

Spinedoc said:


> _And so what was that? Well, a lot of it is technological superiority. I’m not saying the techniques of Aikido are superior to those of Judo. I’m saying that he was using a technology, basically a form of standing grappling. As soon as somebody goes in to reach for you, you blend with it. In Judo, you just grab each other and then you begin. But because he was working at a different range of motion, but really no different than Royce Gracie in the first couple UFCs. Because he was working in that altered range of combat that the Judo guy wasn’t familiar with, he had, clearly, the upper hand.
> 
> So, I think that goes a long way in explaining a lot of the stories of Aikido being able to best Judo in a few challenge matches in the early days of the art._


I don't think Hanzou is bashing Aikido but I do think the OP is bashing Judo instead.


----------



## Steve (Dec 31, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Like I said all you care about is style bashing.  Funny I don't see Steve here telling you to knock it off Hmmm......


Knock it off, hanzou.    

Actually, like I've said many times before, I'm sure that aikido trained In a realistic manner, is very effective.   The advantage bjj has over aikido is the competitive element which grounds and calibrates he training.   Where aikido introduces this, we see great results.


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2015)

Found another video of  K. Tohei performing Aikido against a larger opponent from the 1950s.






Doesn't appear to be a demonstration.

Very interesting.......


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 31, 2015)

Steve said:


> Knock it off, hanzou.
> 
> Actually, like I've said many times before, I'm sure that aikido trained In a realistic manner, is very effective.   The advantage bjj has over aikido is the competitive element which grounds and calibrates he training.   Where aikido introduces this, we see great results.


competitive element kinda goes against the teachings of Aikido


----------



## Steve (Dec 31, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> competitive element kinda goes against the teachings of Aikido


I wouldn't know about that.   I just know that the branches of aikido that incorporate competition seem to be more effective.   Whether it's aikijitsu or cherry picking techniques and teaching them to cops or whatever.


----------



## Spinedoc (Dec 31, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't think Hanzou is bashing Aikido but I do think the OP is bashing Judo instead.


I don't recall saying that????


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2015)

Spinedoc said:


> I don't recall saying that????


May be you didn't say that but that was what you have "quoted" in your 1st post,



Spinedoc said:


> _And so what was that? Well, a lot of it is technological superiority. I’m not saying the techniques of Aikido are superior to those of Judo. I’m saying that he was using a technology, basically a form of standing grappling. As soon as somebody goes in to reach for you, you blend with it. In Judo, you just grab each other and then you begin. But because he was working at a different range of motion, but really no different than Royce Gracie in the first couple UFCs. Because he was working in that altered range of combat that the Judo guy wasn’t familiar with, he had, clearly, the upper hand.
> 
> So, I think that goes a long way in explaining a lot of the stories of Aikido being able to best Judo in a few challenge matches in the early days of the art._


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 31, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be you didn't say that but that was what you have "quoted" in your 1st post,


that is allowed here.  there is only 1 style that's off limits


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 1, 2016)

Too much to quote since I finally braced myself to read this thread, but the major argument Hanzou is making is that Aikido by itself does not work (even if he is saying it in a very abrasive and style-bashing way), which is why it sucks. However, from what I know of Aikido, which admittedly isn't much, it's not supposed to be something that works purely on its own. It's supposed to be incorporated into another art, to give you a very specific edge over that art. 
Any instance where someone trained in multiple grappling arts, including Aikido, and does well, is actually reinforcing that Aikido is successful rather than giving people a way to dismiss the style.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 1, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Within that video, yeah it does.


Only if you are not interested in making logical arguments. This is an example of a hasty generalization.



Hanzou said:


> Instead of making excuses for the Aikidoka getting beaten, maybe we could discuss why a 4th dan in Aikido got beaten so easily by a mediocre grappler?



Maybe you should actually read the video description before you decide ig the grappler is mediocre or not.
"Grandmaster of Turkish Submission Wrestling and head of the Marital Kinetics Academy, Levent Altunbas,"

This video would seem to show that BJJ is just as inept against Turkish Submission Wresltling as Aikido is:






But hey show me a video of a BJJ practitioner defeating a Turkish Submission Wrestler and we will all be happy.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 1, 2016)

lklawson said:


> "the rest of the grappling community at large" has basically already decided what they want to believe and is now wading hip deep in a sea of Confirmation Bias.


Even when I have showed hi exactly what he asked for (Aikido trained in a live manner in the Steven Segal Black belt test video) he still finds a way to claim it isn't evidence of anything (reminds me of another group that likes to shift the goal posts whenever they are shown evidence).


----------



## Jenna (Jan 1, 2016)

I have no clue nor can determine what this thread pertains to???

 I should really like to know what it would benefit me -or you MMA practitioners- if I were to get in a ring and try to do nothing except my Aikido?

I wish to ask those of you that compete in MMA, if I were to take this step above and get beaten in that MMA bout staying strictly with my own art Aikido, what would it either suggest or proove 1.to you, and 2.to me?? thank you xx


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 1, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> If you can't stop a takedown in a dojo, you're probably not going to stop a takedown in the streets either.



If you can't perform a takedown in a dojo, using Judo, on a Tai chi practitioner you're probably not going to be able to perform a takedown in the streets either:






With the right amount of bias you can draw just about any conclusion you want from videos


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 1, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Only if you are not interested in making logical arguments. This is an example of a hasty generalization.
> 
> Maybe you should actually read the video description before you decide ig the grappler is mediocre or not.
> "Grandmaster of Turkish Submission Wrestling and head of the Marital Kinetics Academy, Levent Altunbas,"
> ...



Hilarious. All you need to do is check out the results from the AFBJJ panics to see that Al-Ziani won the 17 yo novice (read: White belt) division.



> Male Novice 17 YO 61kg Nogi
> 
> A. Al Zaini (544) martial kinetics



Welcome to AFBJJ

:golf clap:

A good accomplishment to be sure, but definitely not in the same league as what occurred at that Aikido academy. It doesn't help that it appears that there were only 2 people in his division, so he only had to beat that one guy to get "gold".

Anyway, there's a big difference between beating a white belt at Bjj and a 4th degree black belt in Aikido, wouldn't you agree?

Now, if Al-Ziani or Martial Kinetics as a whole were winning within the upper belt categories, or we had a video of the head of Martial Kinetics beating a Bjj black belt in his own gym, we'd have something to discuss here.

Unfortunately, it would appear that after winning gold (as a novice white belt) in 2011, neither he nor Martial Kinetics Academy ever returned to that tournament.


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 1, 2016)

Jenna said:


> I have no clue nor can determine what this thread pertains to???
> 
> I should really like to know what it would benefit me -or you MMA practitioners- if I were to get in a ring and try to do nothing except my Aikido?
> 
> I wish to ask those of you that compete in MMA, if I were to take this step above and get beaten in that MMA bout staying strictly with my own art Aikido, what would it either suggest or proove 1.to you, and 2.to me?? thank you xx



It depends on how badly you get beaten. If you hold your own, there's no problem. If you get utterly obliterated like that 4th degree BB Aikidoka did in that video then there's a significant issue that you should address in your training.

And keep in mind, you don't need to compete in some MMA tournament. Just head over to a MMA gym and spar with some people and see how what you do stacks up with what they're doing. For example, whenever I get the chance I accompany a friend who teaches grappling at a MMA gym, and I spar with those guys utilizing primarily my Bjj skills.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 1, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Hilarious. All you need to do is check out the results from the AFBJJ panics to see that Al-Ziani won the 17 yo novice (read: White belt) division.



So according to you you can't base an argument from a single short YouTube video, unless it is a BJJ/Judo/other grappling art practitioner who is doing the winning?

So you have to look up and search through dozens of documents to disprove the ineffectiveness of BJJ but for Aikido it only takes an 86 second video.

Interesting.



Hanzou said:


> A good accomplishment to be sure, but definitely not in the same league as what occurred at that Aikido academy.



You are right it is not in the same league, one was a competition with full resistance and the other a friendly demonstration by a visiting instructor.


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 1, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> If you can't perform a takedown in a dojo, using Judo, on a Tai chi practitioner you're probably not going to be able to perform a takedown in the streets either:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're kidding right? That video was about as real as Santa Claus.


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 1, 2016)

RTKWCMB said:


> So according to you you can't base an argument from a single short YouTube video, unless it is a BJJ/Judo/other grappling art practitioner who is doing the winning?



Wouldn't you agree that a 4th dan BB in Aikido is far more proficient in their art than a 17 year old white belt?

I would certainly hope so.



> So you have to look up and search through dozens of documents to disprove the ineffectiveness of BJJ but for Aikido it only takes an 86 second video.
> 
> Interesting.



LoL dozens of documents? I just had to look up the results of 2011 AFBJJ pan pacs.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 1, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Wouldn't you agree that a 4th dan BB in Aikido is far more proficient in their art than a 17 year old white belt?
> 
> I would certainly hope so.



On the first video you have a grand master and head of the school versus a 4th Dan. In the Pan Pacs you have two beginners.



Hanzou said:


> LoL dozens of documents? I just had to look up the results of 2011 AFBJJ pan pacs.



There are 42 documents in that link, that is at least 3 dozens.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 1, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> You're kidding right? That video was about as real as Santa Claus.


Which reinforces my point "With the right amount of bias you can draw just about any conclusion you want from videos".


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 1, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> On the first video you have a grand master and head of the school versus a 4th Dan. In the Pan Pacs you have two beginners.



And again, two adult "masters" going at it is more indicative of the representative arts than two adolescent novices going at it.

If the head of Martial Kinetics wishes to really make waves, he can visit pretty much any Bjj school he wants, bring along a video crew and grapple with a Bjj black belt.

There's a very good reason why he hasn't done that.



> There are 42 documents in that link, that is at least 3 dozens.



Uh, you just click the 2011 AFBJJ results, and scroll down until you find his name.



RTKDCMB said:


> Which reinforces my point "With the right amount of bias you can draw just about any conclusion you want from videos".



Except you can watch that video and see very clearly that the Judoka wasn't really trying to throw the Tai Chi practitioner.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 1, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Except you can watch that video and see very clearly that the Judoka wasn't really trying to throw the Tai Chi practitioner.


And you can clearly see in the other video that the Aikido 4th dan wasn't really trying to resist the Turkish Wrestler.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 1, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Uh, you just click the 2011 AFBJJ results, and scroll down until you find his name.


And then look through the 42 documents to find it.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 1, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> If the head of Martial Kinetics wishes to really make waves, he can visit pretty much any Bjj school he wants, bring along a video crew and grapple with a Bjj black belt.
> 
> There's a very good reason why he hasn't done that.


And you think you know what that reason is.


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 1, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> And you can clearly see in the other video that the Aikido 4th dan wasn't really trying to resist the Turkish Wrestler.



If he wasn't resisting, the wrestler wouldn't have failed at the initial takedown.

Again, stop making excuses for the Aikidoka's failure.



RTKDCMB said:


> And you think you know what that reason is.



Yeah, he didn't want to get smashed while he was trying to promote his submission style. 

Whenever you're trying to promote a new grappling system there's a ceiling that you have to breach. When Josh Barnett was trying to promote catch wrestling, he entered Metamoris and defeated top Bjj exponents in order to legitimize catch. Eddie Bravo did the same thing in order to push 10th Planet JJ. This guy wasn't willing to do that, so that's why his little band of turkish submission wrestlers dried up on a vine.


----------



## elder999 (Jan 1, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> If he wasn't resisting, the wrestler wouldn't have failed at the initial takedown.
> 
> Again, stop making excuses for the Aikidoka's failure.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 1, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> If he wasn't resisting, the wrestler wouldn't have failed at the initial takedown.
> 
> Again, stop making excuses for the Aikidoka's failure.



There is a difference between not fully resisting and doing things for them.I am not making excuses I just not allowing you to make the video out to be something it isn't, namely a challenge match that 'proves' Aikido is inferior to other grappling styles.



Hanzou said:


> Yeah, he didn't want to get smashed while he was trying to promote his submission style.


Pure speculation.


----------



## Hanzou (Jan 1, 2016)

RTKWCMB said:


> There is a difference between not fully resisting and doing things for them.



Ah, so now he's not "fully" resisting? 



> Pure speculation.



If you say so.


----------



## Spinedoc (Jan 1, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> competitive element kinda goes against the teachings of Aikido



This is the part that everyone keeps missing. Many, many, many of the students that I've seen in Aikido, do not study it with the intention of ever fighting. My own sensei, states that he intentionally chose Aikido when he was looking for a martial art because he did not want to ever enter a competition. As I have stated before, anecdotally, many of the students in aikido tend to be professionals, who often have very competitive careers.  My own theory, is that aikido gives them a chance to find balance.  Just because this is not the same as your perspective does not make it wrong.

Hanzou,  while you and others seem to place an emphasis in competition. Not everyone thinks that way. Heck, the owner of the martial arts dojo that we rent space at, runs a taekwondo and hapkido school. He also rents space out for Okinawan karate, BJJ, and judo.

He is steadfastly opposed to competition in martial arts. He does not allow his TKD or Hapkido students to enter competitions at all. He feels that competition in martial arts breeds a very unhealthy attitude and that fighting is a serious thing that should never be taken lightly as he feels competitions do.  He also feels that competition creates bad technique as people learn to score points, but not to actually fight.

This is not an aikido guy, but rather a taekwondo and hapkido guy who has been practicing since the 1970's.

Most aikidoka, do not ever train with the intent of trying to compete and the whole notion of competition, simply doesn't work for them. While other martial artists may not understand that, most people in aikido simply don't care.


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## Hanzou (Jan 1, 2016)

Spinedoc said:


> Hanzou,  while you and others seem to place an emphasis in competition. Not everyone thinks that way. Heck, the owner of the martial arts dojo that we rent space at, runs a taekwondo and hapkido school. He also rents space out for Okinawan karate, BJJ, and judo.
> 
> He is steadfastly opposed to competition in martial arts. He does not allow his TKD or Hapkido students to enter competitions at all. He feels that competition in martial arts breeds a very unhealthy attitude and that fighting is a serious thing that should never be taken lightly as he feels competitions do. He also feels that competition creates bad technique as people learn to score points, but not to actually fight.
> 
> ...



I suppose everyone is entitled to their personal beliefs, but it's quite interesting that you don't see the same level of disdain towards competition when it comes to stories of "O'Sensei" or similar MA founders and legends beating up western boxers and Judoka back in the day.

I mean, your OP kind of celebrates O'Sensei fighting and beating sport fighters.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 1, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> You can use whatever language you like. You can call it a friendly sparring contest, or a mutual test of each other's abilities. The results are the same.



Oh you poor child.  I get it, you want to eat at at the adults table. You're not quite there yet.  Maybe next year.


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## Spinedoc (Jan 1, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> I suppose everyone is entitled to their personal beliefs, but it's quite interesting that you don't see the same level of disdain towards competition when it comes to stories of "O'Sensei" or similar MA founders and legends beating up western boxers and Judoka back in the day.
> 
> I mean, your OP kind of celebrates O'Sensei fighting and beating sport fighters.



No, you missed the point. The OP was meant to acknowledge a BJJ teacher who was speaking fondly of Aikido......it was not about old stories of O'Sensei.....that was what you focused on.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 1, 2016)

Spinedoc said:


> Most aikidoka, do not ever train with the intent of trying to compete and the whole notion of competition, simply doesn't work for them. While other martial artists may not understand that, most people in aikido simply don't care.





Spinedoc said:


> _So, I think that goes a long way in explaining a lot of the stories of Aikido being able to best Judo in a few challenge matches in the early days of the art._


Your statement just contradict to your own post - _Aikido being able to best Judo in a few challenge matches. 

I'm quite confused about the purpose of this thread discussion. Are you trying to say that "Aikido is superior than Judo because Aikido guys don't care about competition?"

Without competition, how and where will you be able to test your combat skill? You can 

- "develop" your combat skill through partner drills,
- "polish" your combat skill through solo drills,
- "enhance" your combat skill through weight equipment training,

but you have to "test" your combat skill through competition. 

I have seen many students who has trained "hip throw" partner drills over 10,000 times. During the partner drills training his "hip throw" speed, coordination are all perfect. But in competition, he can't use his "hip throw" successfully even once. 

This is why I don't believe a MA style that doesn't emphasize on "competition" can be superior than a MA style that emphasizes on "competition". No matter how much that I love my primary long fist system, I would never say that long fist is superior than boxing. The reason is simple. When a long fist guy is punching into the thin air, a boxer tries to meet his fist on his opponent's face._


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 1, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> I mean, your OP kind of celebrates O'Sensei fighting and *beating sport fighters*.


I don't even train Judo, but I do train "sport". The voice from the "sport" side should be heard as well.

I train "sport" for

- combat skill,
- health, and
- fun.

When

- you can use your "single leg" to take your opponent down 7 times in a role (from the offense skill point of view),
- your opponent throws 20 punches at your head and still can't hit your head (from the defense skill point of view),

during competition, you will smile in your dream for the next 3 nights. Even money won't be able to buy that kind of "fun". The nice thing about "sport" is nobody will get hurt if both follow the rule. This way you can have unlimited amount of "fun" through "sport".


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## Hanzou (Jan 1, 2016)

Spinedoc said:


> No, you missed the point. The OP was meant to acknowledge a BJJ teacher who was speaking fondly of Aikido......it was not about old stories of O'Sensei.....that was what you focused on.



A BJJ teacher who also teaches Aikido, and compares what Ueshiba (supposedly) did against a group of Judoka to what Royce Gracie did at the UFC.

The real point is this; If Aikidoka truly "didn't care" about competition they wouldn't feel compelled to consistently bring up legends of O'Sensei competitively beating burly Judo black belts once upon a time in Japan.


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## Spinedoc (Jan 1, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Your statement just contradict to your own post - _Aikido being able to best Judo in a few challenge matches.
> 
> I'm quite confused about the purpose of this thread discussion. Are you trying to say that "Aikido is superior than Judo because Aikido guys don't care about competition?"
> 
> ...



Again, you keep attributing quotes to me that I did not say. I never said anything about aikido beating judo, Roy Dean said something about it in his interview, but you keep putting the wrong quotes with me. Not sure why you are doing that?????j

These were Roy Deans words, not mine. To be honest, I don't even care about the old stories of O'Sensei, beyond the fact that he impressed a number of judoka and other martial artists enough that they came to study with him. Whether he beat them or not is irrelevant....I boxed and wrestled when I was younger, and it was interesting, but I will never compete in fighting again. 

I've even told my BJJ teacher that I have no interest in competition, and I'm primarily doing it to learn, strengthen my aikido, and get in better shape. He was completely cool with that.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 1, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> "didn't care" about competition ...


If you (general YOU) don't care about competition, you won't spend enough time to dig into a solution of certain problem. Yesterday in my class, a guy (he always tests his skill in MMA gym) wanted to know how to counter "arm drag" that wrestlers use it so often on the mat. He likes to spin his body to the side of his opponent. When he did that, his opponent could spin with him. We have seen many videos online how to use "arm drag" to set up something. But we don't see too many videos about how to counter it. We worked on 3 different counters for "arm drag". IMO, if you don't spend enough training time to train it, when your opponent uses "arm drag" on you, your body won't be able to react properly. If you don't compete and if you only train striking art, you may never care about "arm drag" at all. Only competition can force you to face a certain problem and then find solution for it even if that solution may not come from your own style.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 1, 2016)

Spinedoc said:


> Again, you keep attributing quotes to me that I did not say. I never said anything about aikido beating judo, Roy Dean said something about it in his interview, but you keep putting the wrong quotes with me. Not sure why you are doing that?????





Spinedoc said:


> Great link...


When you said, "Great link..." I have to assume that you do agree with what Roy Dean has said. If I don't agree with someone opinion, I would never say, "Great link ..."

I could be wrong and you can tell me that.


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## drop bear (Jan 1, 2016)

Spinedoc said:


> Again, you keep attributing quotes to me that I did not say. I never said anything about aikido beating judo, Roy Dean said something about it in his interview, but you keep putting the wrong quotes with me. Not sure why you are doing that?????j
> 
> These were Roy Deans words, not mine. To be honest, I don't even care about the old stories of O'Sensei, beyond the fact that he impressed a number of judoka and other martial artists enough that they came to study with him. Whether he beat them or not is irrelevant....I boxed and wrestled when I was younger, and it was interesting, but I will never compete in fighting again.
> 
> I've even told my BJJ teacher that I have no interest in competition, and I'm primarily doing it to learn, strengthen my aikido, and get in better shape. He was completely cool with that.



It is not that competition is necessary to do the art. Anyone can train martial arts.

But you lose a level of progression and understanding if you don't.

So yeah. You don't have to compete in anything.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 1, 2016)

drop bear said:


> But you lose a level of progression and understanding if you don't.
> .


Nonsense


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## drop bear (Jan 1, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> Nonsense



Training in general is full of false positives due to the nature of the training itself. There are two things that tend not to be covered. 

Someone who does not know you or like you.

Someone who is fully committed to going at you full stink.

These change what will be high percentage and low percentage techniques.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 1, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Training in general is full of false positives due to the nature of the training itself. There are two things that tend not to be covered.
> 
> Someone who does not know you or like you.
> 
> ...


and Competition doesn't address either of your concerns because you have rules and refs.


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## drop bear (Jan 1, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> and Competition doesn't address either of your concerns because you have rules and refs.



You have rules and refs regardless of what training you do. It is not like you turn up to training and you get shanked in the carpark.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 1, 2016)

drop bear said:


> You have rules and refs regardless of what training you do. It is not like you turn up to training and you get shanked in the carpark.


Right so your statement was false


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## Steve (Jan 1, 2016)

If you. Train for competition, you at least have a chance to execute your techniques in the context for which they are intended.   If you don't compete, you don't even have that.   How important this is, is a matter if opinion.   I think it's very important, and others don't.


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## drop bear (Jan 1, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> Right so your statement was false



What statement was false?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 1, 2016)

drop bear said:


> It is not that competition is necessary to do the art. Anyone can train martial arts.
> 
> But you lose a level of progression and understanding if you don't.
> 
> So yeah. You don't have to compete in anything.


Agree!

Can you image that if you take a course in college and know that you won't have mid term and final exams? I took a course "Category Theory - the algebra is like a tree, the modern algebra is like a forest, today let's talk about a set of forest" in UT Austin. In that course, there was no homework, no mid term exam, and no final exam. On the last day before the teacher said good by to every students, one student asked, "How are you going to grade us if there will be no exam?" The teacher said, "If you have the courage to take this course, you deserve an A". The 1st year college course number starts from 300. That course "Category Theory" has class number of 935 that you just can't find any higher level course than that in college. Since there was no homework, no exams, my book is still quite new and I did't learn much from that course but I got my "A" any way.


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## Hanzou (Jan 1, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> Nonsense



The evolution of boxing, wrestling, Bjj, MMA, Judo, etc. kind of prove that it's not nonsense.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 1, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> The evolution of boxing, wrestling, Bjj, MMA, Judo, etc. kind of prove that it's not nonsense.


Many disagree the evolution of those styles moved towards winning trophies and away from self defense


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## ballen0351 (Jan 1, 2016)

drop bear said:


> What statement was false?


The one I quoted and commented on.....try following along


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## Hanzou (Jan 1, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> Many disagree the evolution of those styles moved towards winning trophies and away from self defense



Well look at the Triangke Choke. It was a technique that developed via competition, and plenty of people have used it to defend themselves.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 1, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree!
> 
> Can you image that if you take a course in college and know that you won't have mid term and final exams? I took a course "Category Theory - the algebra is like a tree, the modern algebra is like a forest, today let's talk about a set of forest" in UT Austin. In that course, there was no homework, no mid term exam, and no final exam. On the last day before the teacher said good by to every students, one student asked, "How are you going to grade us if there will be no exam?" The teacher said, "If you have the courage to take this course, you deserve an A". The 1st year college course number starts from 300. That course "Category Theory" has class number of 935 that you just can't find any higher level course than that in college. Since there was no homework, no exams, my book is still quite new and I did't learn much from that course but I got my "A" any way.


So because you have no self-motivation to learn and need cheap belts and trophies everyone else does too?


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## ballen0351 (Jan 1, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Well look at the Triangke Choke. It was a technique that developed via competition, and plenty of people have used it to defend themselves.


WOW 1 whole move well there you go case closed


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## Hanzou (Jan 1, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> WOW 1 whole move well there you go case closed



Along with closed guard, half guard, rubber guard, Williams Guard, guard sweeps, uppa, Ezekiel choke, Omoplata, Gogoplata, Kimura, kneebars, ankle locks, heel hooks, etc.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 1, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Along with closed guard, half guard, rubber guard, Williams Guard, guard sweeps, uppa, Ezekiel choke, Omoplata, Gogoplata, Kimura, kneebars, ankle locks, heel hooks, etc.


renaming something that already existed isnt inventing it.  Also look how much is removed from these arts to conform to sport rules.  Judo removes things every year, where did BJJ strikes go I know there were there in the begining now due to sport its not taught in many schools.  Competition hurts the self-defense portion of theses arts and turns them into games


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 1, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> So because you have no self-motivation to learn and need cheap belts and trophies everyone else does too?


"Love easy life and hate hard work" is human nature.


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## elder999 (Jan 1, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Along with closed guard, half guard, rubber guard, Williams Guard, guard sweeps, uppa, Ezekiel choke, Omoplata, Gogoplata, Kimura, kneebars, ankle locks, heel hooks, etc.








"Omoplata?" Isn't that some kids' cereal?
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Why don't you call it by its original name, so the other old guys understand: _ashi-sankaku-garami_, 三角緘? I mean, after all, BJJ is _*B*asically *J*ust *J*udo..._


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## Grenadier (Jan 1, 2016)

*Admin's note:*

Thread locked, pending staff review.


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