# The IMAF, INC Web page is up!!!!



## Guro Harold

Hello Everyone,

It appears that the IMAF, INC web page is officially up!!!

The address is:

www.modernarnis.net

Palusut


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## Datu Tim Hartman

A banner only. I would not call that up and running. I hope that changes soon!
:boing2:


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## Inigo Montoya

Was a banner there earlier. 

Now has some limited info.


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## Guro Harold

Well Excuse me!!!

I just mentioned that the site was up.  Besides all that, with all due respects to the Renegade, before the passing of the Professor in August, the last thing interesting that appeared on www.wmarnis.com, occurred on Nov 29, 2000. :boing1:

Thought it was a single page, they did however, include their mission statement, and gave details of what occured during the camp and memorial service, which I appreciated, since I was not able to attend.

Palusut


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## Mao

Wow Gatorade,
  You sound a little defensive, threatened perhaps. It is still a work in progress. :hammer: :moon:


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## Inigo Montoya

Hmmm.....Hammer-Moon.... is that some weird Martialarts / Anime cross over?

Reni up there probly hit the site when it first went up, and his browser cache didn't refresh.  Happens alot when using sucky mico$oft bloatwear.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

I use Netscape navigator and when I go to that sight the *ONLY* thing that shows up on my browser is the banner!!!

I don't feel threatend but when I'm informed that a sight is up I expect more that that. Since Palsut mentioned that the mission statment was up so I check the site with an other browser and it was there. I have already e-mail Randi about the problem. Don't be so willing to jump. *That's my job!!!*

:soapbox:


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## Cthulhu

I feel your pain, Renegade.  I also use Navigator instead of MacroSuck Internet Exploiter.  What version of Netscape are you using...4.x?  If so, I'm willing to bet that Netscape 6.x/Mozilla would display the page properly.

Cthulhu


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Palusut,
I have not updates in the news section because I've been helping the webmaster with this site and making sure that Modern Arnis was part of it! You may rest well knowing that there will be plenty of updates come.
:armed: :moon: :samurai:


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## Inigo Montoya

Hmm... maybe sites only optimized for Micro$soft Incontinet Exploiter?

Bad JuJu...Bad.

I :fart: in the general direction of M$ only sites!


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## Cthulhu

If you're like me, and REALLY don't want to use IE, you can just view the page source in Netscape 4.x and see the mission statement that way.

Cthulhu


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## Datu Tim Hartman

It comes down to web design. I use to have friends do my site for free and I get problems like this. That is why I have a pro do my sight.

:soapbox:


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## GouRonin

I have heard of overzealous webmasters making webpages that get people into trouble based on what is on there.

In all truth, it's best to get a pro to do it if you can afford to do it and have the need. The professional look is always appreciated and makes the people look good.

Otherwise you get some crappy looking site like mine that makes people wonder if I'm retarded...
:hammer:

I'm not by the way...no matter what they tell you...
:cuss:


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Are you sure about that Gou????????

 :mst:


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## Inigo Montoya

Well, viewed in Exploder, it looks nice.  Much nicer than the other IMAF site.


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## GouRonin

Of course I'm sure!
:cuss:
Well...I'm pretty sure...

Um...now that I think about it I really don't have any proof that I'm not...


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *It comes down to web design. I use to have friends do my site for free and I get problems like this. That is why I have a pro do my sight.*



Smart move. I cannot see the site in Netscape but can in Explorer. From the site (this is not all of it):

INTERNATIONAL MODERN ARNIS FEDERATION (IMAF)

VISION STATEMENT

Founder & Grandmaster "Professor" Remy Amador Presas established the International Modern Arnis Federation (IMAF) to perpetuate Modern Arnis worldwide. The IMAF will provide for the ethical governance and implementation of Modern Arnis training. The IMAF will provide for the disciplined, rigorous, and systematic training in Modern Arnis, to include (1) the Way of the FLOW, and (2) the Art of Tapi Tapi.

The IMAF will provide leadership, growth, and comprehensive mental and physical training in the Remy Presas Modern Arnis system in its entirety. The IMAF member arnisador will learn to embrace and apply the Way of the FLOW in Life. Ultimately the Modern Arnis practitioner will learn (1) self-discovery and self-control, (2) achieve personal excellence, and (3) gain self-mastery, in the face of Life's daily uncertainties, challenges, and opportunities.

Arnis Fest 2001 - Premiere Modern Arnis Memorial Camp a HUGE Success!

On October 19th-21st, 2001, the International Modern Arnis Federation (IMAF) held its inaugural annual memorial training camp in Orland Park, IL, in honor of its Founder and Grandmaster Remy Amador Presas. Arnis Fest 2001 brought together over fifty (50) participants for its three-day intensive Modern Arnis training conducted by the Masters of Tapi Tapi and assisted by other senior black belts.


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## Icepick

Hey MOO!

Can you please teach me how to "face life's uncertainties"?  A great curriculum, no doubt!!  I can totally picture Chuck Gauss meditating under a waterfall!!!   

 

I'm glad the rest of those guys have stepped out from behind JD.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Icepick _
> *I'm glad the rest of those guys have stepped out from behind JD. *



Wouldn't it be great if they could ally themselves with the Presas children! Presumably the two styles, classical Modern Arnis in the Philippines and modern Modern Arnis in the states, are too dissimilar.

I will settle for www.modernarnis.net becoming Netscape-friendly...


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## Mao

Temper, temper Regenade. Don't be so ready to go off! My, how stereotypically New Yorker of you. Now remember, I'm from there too so I can say that. :boing2: :uzi:


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## Mao

How to face lifes uncertainties: armed and ready, but temperant.
 That ones free. Ready for lesson two Icepick-san?
:asian: 

As for Chuck under the h2ofall, it could happen.


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## Bob Hubbard

This is a technical critique:

Modernarnis.net - nice layout, but definately an IE only design, but may look ok in NS 6+.  I suggest either using browser detection code and sending users to a browser specific page, or losing the IE only stuff (which it doesn't appear to need based on the content) and go with plain HTML.

modernarnis.com - ok design so far, the animated grfx are annoying.  More comments when theres more content.  

professorpresas.com - ugly design, poor fonts.  Sorry, its just so, um, 80's?

wmarnis.com - I'm one of the site maintainers.  Tims been helping me with this board and other projects and between that, and moving his school, and other things, we've all fallen a bit behind on the maint.  Rest assured, we're back on track and in the next few weeks, its gonna rock at warp 12 again.  Lets just say that in the MA world, its really gonna be cool!


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## arnisador

The web page is now Netscape-friendly. I direct peoples' attention to the following in particular:
http://www.modernarnis.net/about/master.shtml
This contains some additional information concerning the relationship between the IMAF, Inc. and Mr. Delaney.

Many other pages at the site appear to not yet be active.


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## Bob Hubbard

re: JD - Interesting......very interesting.  

re: design, etc : 
  IE - Nice.
  NS - not checked
  Opera - Looks good, but the top drop down nav bar doesn't show up.  Otherwise, very close to the IE version.  Some layout issues, but that is due to browser stylesheet incompatabilities.

Basically, you can code for everyone, and lose some neat things, or aim at the 85% who have IE, and do your best to make it friendly and usable to those who don't.  

Overall, it looks good.

:asian:


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## Datu Tim Hartman

I will not comment on the content at this time. I need some time to read it all. I will say it is good to be able to view the page now.
:hammer: :cheers:


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## Datu Tim Hartman

I can't resist speaking my mind. The one thing that I have to disagree with is this *"Art of Tapi-Tapi"!* It is the art of Modern Arnis. Tapi-Tapi is a tool to train the art!!! If it is a new art then call it that and don't fight over the IMAF name!

:soapbox: :samurai: :argue: :armed: :uzi: :flame:


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## Mao

Hey Renegade,
:wah: :wah: :wah: You sound so:angry:!
I think of you as a brother so take this that way. I seem to remember you teaching anyo pito at the Mich. camp one year. The way you were teaching it was different from the way I was taught. I mentioned a movement in particular to you and you said that you added it in because it fit. I say this to point out that there are/will be differences of opinion in terms of semantics among other things. We should be able to get along just the same. I hope that what another group is doing,or saying, as long as it is the Profs. art does not prevent this. Except maybe for J.D.  It's just that your post above sounded like the whole tapi tapi thing really bugs you. Given the hx., I understand if you have a bone of contention. I still think of you as a brother. I still want to work with you, mi vato. Don't sweat the small stuff. It's all just pebbles and sand. In the end what will matter is how we treated each other.  :asian: 
 Ans now.............:moon: :boing1:


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## Brian Johns

Folks,

If you go to JD's website, he now announces that the Grandmasters of Modern Arnis are JD and Dr. Randi Schea. He then appends the word "retired" next to Dr. Schea's name, implying that Dr. Schea has "retired" from the organization. Nothing could be further from the truth. The fact of the matter is that Delaney named his own board and essentially "fired" the rest of the MOTTs. This so called "firing" led the MOTTs to set up their own web site (which I think is far better than JD's site).

For whatever it's worth.  

WOO!!!


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by WhoopAss _
> * The fact of the matter is that Delaney named his own board and essentially "fired" the rest of the MOTTs. This so called "firing" led the MOTTs to set up their own web site*



If I understand correctly, it's not just their own web site--it's a different organization, both named IMAF.

One side of the story appears to be Mr. Delaney "firing" Dr. Schea and the other MOTTs; another side seems to be them leaving because they were not in agreement with Mr. Delaney's ideas on the direction the IMAF should take. If there is a single truth here-- and there may not be--I'd be interested to know it.

One thing I think both sides do have correctly is that there should be a single person at the head of the organization. In the case of the IMAF, Inc., that appears to be Dr. Schea as chair but there seems to be much more egalitarianism--it's all but an oligarchy, as I understand it. In the case of the IMAF it appears to be Mr. Delaney solely at the helm. (I'm sure the issue of who owns the name IMAF will be resolved shortly.) In either event, I think a clear leader is needed, and I do think that the Professor made an unfortunate choice in choosing two people, even leaving aside issues of personal integrity.

I imagine when Wally Jay passes that his art will multifurcate four ways. I just don't believe that leaving the art to more than one person is advisable, _unless_ one wants to see it split. Perhaps Prof. Jay believes that each of his inheritors will evolve the art in a different direction and that that is beneficial, but I believe that Prof. Presas wanted his art to stay intact, and that has certainly not happened.


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## Mao

Regarding the IMAF,inc., there is one person leading, Dr. Shea. There is a steering commitee and a board of directors. Most corporations are run this way. It will be run like a corporation. 
 The MOTT'S did not leave, jd left. As Whoopass put it, he in essence, fired them. He did so without ANY communication what so ever. Then he named people that he wanted, one of which he did not even ask first. The fact that are/will be diff. orgs. representing modern arnis is not as disconcerting as the fact that some are not a good representation of the art. IMAF,inc. would probably have ousted jd anyway. All of this is simply the evolution of things. It has happened before and will in the future. It's all just pebbles and sand. What will matter in the end is how we treated each other. On the Modernarnis.net website you will notice that credit is given jd for the title that the Prof. gave him. It is an honest thing to do. This is the type of person Dr. Shea is and the type of organization that IMAF,inc. will be. Whew, enough :soapbox: for now. I'm tired.


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## Brian Johns

Well, the fact of the matter is that, from the beginning, JD was not a team player and that was particularly reflected in the administration of the web site. Despite instructions to the contrary, JD turned that web site into a JD web site rather than an IMAF web site.  The major failing of JD was that he refused to list the seminar schedules of the MOTTs as he was instructed to do.  From what I understand, there were attempts to resolve this website issue. The issue was never resolved.  To make a long story short, things broke down between JD and the rest of the MOTTs. Then a month ago, JD announces the "firing" of the entire IMAF board, all of whom were appointed by Remy. Dr. Schea had been Chairman of the IMAF since 1994. What JD did was contrary to the wishes of the late Prof Presas. It was in response to this that the rest of the MOTTs, including Dr. Schea, decided to set up their own web site. I have to say that the group headed by Dr. Schea has far more depth and experience than the JD group. There are a couple of folks in the JD Board who have very minimal experience in Modern Arnis. None of the folks on the JD board have the experience or background that the rest of the MOTTs do.

Yes, you are right.....there appears to be more egalitarianism in the IMAF, Inc. group than in the JD group. Dr. Schea appears to be a very democratic type of person. Yet, at the same time, he's in charge. This is a tight group and they're working together very well. It's a cohesive group. 

WOO !!


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## spdmn

Hello, I am new to this forum.  A lot of interesting comments here.

Seems like there is much more stuff posted on the modernarnis.net page now, even have a couple of camp dates set.

I am sure a lot of Arnisadoris in this forum have met and train with Dr. Schea, he is way way ahead of JD in terms of understanding and being able to apply Modern Arnis.


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## GouRonin

Which camp has all the babes?
:shrug:


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by spdmn _
> *Seems like there is much more stuff posted on the modernarnis.net page now, even have a couple of camp dates set.
> 
> I am sure a lot of Arnisadoris in this forum have met and train with Dr. Schea, he is way way ahead of JD in terms of understanding and being able to apply Modern Arnis. *



I note that Mr. Delaney has a half-page ad in the January 2002 issue of Black Belt. It mentions two camps and his tapes, and that he is the successor of Prof. Presas.


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## Brian Johns

<<<I note that Mr. Delaney has a half-page ad in the January 2002 issue of Black Belt. It mentions two camps and his tapes, and that he is the successor of Prof. Presas.>>>

I've not seen this particular issue of Black Belt magazine but if that's what it says, it's all bs. Let me say this.....he's got some huge cajones to call himself the lone successor to Prof Presas. The fact of the matter is that Dr. Schea was appointed by Remy to be the Chairman of the IMAF back in 1994. JD has taken upon himself to violate the wishes of Prof Presas. No doubt about it, JD has moved unilaterally to make himself Chairman and Successor to the Professor. The facts do not back his claim whatsoever. His so called credentials will be exposed one of these days. Put it this way, what JD is doing does not reflect the Professor's last revised will.

In any case, what's important here is how the parties are conducting themselves in the post Remy era. I would like to think that JD's attempt to publicize himself so much bespeaks a certain lack of confidence that he will get what he wants. Dr. Schea and the MOTTs, on the other hand, seem to be less interested in playing politics and buying advertisements etc. I think that the Vision statement on the web site says alot.

WOO !!!!


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## spdmn

It doesnt matter who is the new GrandMaster after Remy as long as this person has good personality, good enough techniques to represent Modern Arnis.  Its just a title.  Claiming oneself to be the lone successor doesnt mean anything unless you can back it up with the ability to spread the art and work with other people.

By the way, I like WhoopAss's footer, "I like to see you do that too", reminds me of Remy and so sad we dont get to hear it anymore.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by WhoopAss _
> *JD has taken upon himself to violate the wishes of Prof Presas. No doubt about it, JD has moved unilaterally to make himself Chairman and Successor to the Professor. The facts do not back his claim whatsoever. His so called credentials will be exposed one of these days. Put it this way, what JD is doing does not reflect the Professor's last revised will.*



If I understand correctly, Mr. Delaney and Dr. Schea were, according to the will, supposed to work together under the aegis of the IMAF to further the art. Neither are doing that--neither are reflecting the last version of the will, as I understand it--and whether it's one person's fault or if there is blame that could be laid on both sides is hard to say from here. I find Mr. Delaney's frequent implications that he is the sole successor a bit off-putting, but then the current version of www.modernarnis.net has:
http://www.modernarnis.net/about/master.shtml

_Master Delaney was appointed Co-Successor in for the International Modern Arnis Federation (IMAF) in October 2000, to assist Dr. Randi Schea, Successor, and also to assist with the Masters of Tapi Tapi_

(Italics added.) This seems to denigrate Mr. Delaney as a Co-Successor as opposed to Dr. Schea as a (Full) Successor, whereas my understanding was that both were equally co-susccessors. I also notice that he was appointed, according to this, to _assist_ Dr. Schea and to _assist_ the MOTTs, which again I find to be a downplaying of his intended role. This is not the high road either, though I certainly grant that Mr. Delaney is looking more crassly commercial than Dr. Schea's group. But I say again--Dr. Schea's site also sems to claim that he is the sole successor and that Mr. Delaney is only a "co-successor" with the implication that this is somehow a lesser status than Dr. Schea's as successor, and so both IMAFs are guilty of some of this.

I say again: I blame Prof. Presas. I liked him and respected him and get no pleasure from saying this, but he should have clearly appointed a single person. The price will be paid in people drifting into other arts due to the state of disarray in which they find Modern Arnis.



> *I would like to think that JD's attempt to publicize himself so much bespeaks a certain lack of confidence that he will get what he wants. Dr. Schea and the MOTTs, on the other hand, seem to be less interested in playing politics and buying advertisements etc.*



They do seem to be quieter at this point at least, and Mr. Delaney does appear to be concerned about ascertaining his position publicly and often. Time will tell. Neither organization has a particularly high-ranking person at the head.

I will be interested to learn more about MARPPIO. It's not clear to me how similar their curriculum is to the Modern Arnis curriculum as it has recently been taught here in the United States. The art of MARPPIO may be a very different art.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by spdmn _
> *It doesnt matter who is the new GrandMaster after Remy as long as this person has good personality, good enough techniques to represent Modern Arnis.*



I do not believe that such a person has stepped forward yet within the United States. Mr. Hartman might be able to fill such a role. I cannot comment knowledgeably on Remy P. Presas and his organization--I will be watching.



> *
> Its just a title.  Claiming oneself to be the lone successor doesnt mean anything unless you can back it up with the ability to spread the art and work with other people.
> *



I agree. It is just a title, but it's also the headship of the system. Modern Arnis grew on the strength of the Professor's personality and positivity as much as the techniques. It will fall apart in the current chaos. Many of the techniques  will live on in one person's teaching or another but the Professor's art is at risk. To my mind the art is more than the sum of its techniques--surely Prof. Presas believed this--so I see that as a loss.

Already some of Modern Arnis has disappeared into Arnis de Leon, for example. Other practitioners who do it as a secondary art will find another secondary art (Filipino or no). This dissension and the lack of a strong and widely-accepted person at the top will mean that the Professor's art will disappear. I find that sad, given the percentage of his life that he dedicated to it. The MARPPIO organization will carry on his legacy in one way, other instructors will caryy it on in other ways, but I fear that the art itself, as developed and taught here in the U.S., will be gone before long.


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## Brian Johns

<<<<If I understand correctly, Mr. Delaney and Dr. Schea were, according to the will, supposed to work together under the aegis of the IMAF to further the art. Neither are doing that--neither are reflecting the last version of the will, as I understand it--and whether it's one person's fault or if there is blame that could be laid on both sides is hard to say from here.>>>>>

I don't know where you're coming from. As I see it, the problem is with JD, particularly with the administration of his website. Datu Hartman can attest to this particular problem. Shortly after his promotion to 6th degree black belt by Professor Presas at the 2000 Michigan Camp, the web  site announced Tim's promotion to 6th degree and to the title of Datu. As soon as the Professor got sick, any reference to Tim's promotion was removed from the website. The accounts of the 2000 Michigan camp was still on the site but any reference to Tim was removed by JD. If JD would do that to a 6th degree black belt and one who was honored with the title of Datu, what do you think JD is going to do to the rest of the leadership that Remy named ? Of course, he went out of his way to promote himself and not the others on that web site. None of the MOTTs seminars were announced on the web site.

This goes even further. For those who had booked Remy for seminars through the year 2001 were removed from the web site, even though Remy still called the shots as to who would do the seminars. Only those seminars taught by JD were listed on that website.......even while Remy was still alive.

Then there's the matter of the new videotapes. Despite the fact that Remy used several people in those tapes and the fact that he did not single out any one person for greater exposure than any other, guess who JD put on the cover of every single one of the tapes ? Him and Remy. None of the other MOTTS are included.

From what I understand, the MOTTs tried to work with JD and resolve some of these issues, particularly with regard to the website and announcing seminars by MOTTS to no avail.

Then in early October, JD essentially named himself as the Chairman of the IMAF, a position that Dr. Schea was appointed to in 1994 by Remy. I believe that Dr. Schea's position as the Chairman was affirmed by Remy's last will. In any case, JD went on to name his own board naming several people and excluding the MOTTs. It was this move that led the MOTTs to form their own group and set up their own website.

There's a lot that I'm not saying here. Suffice it to say that I believe that the MOTTS have all the facts on their side. I happen to believe that the MOTTS are a very tight group and they are going to do very well.

One last point. I don't believe that the Professor's art is "going to disappear."  It will go  on in various forms, whether it be with Tim's group, the MOTTs or MARPPIO. I believe that the Professor's art will be quite alive for years to come.

WOO!!!


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## bloodwood

MARPPIO has come onto the scene fairly quickly and they seem to have gotten quite organized fast. It would seem that they were expecting this current situation and were waiting for the right time to emerge. The quick organization of this group suggests that they have been preparing for the kaos created by the Professor's passing for some time now.

JD has a new toy and plays with it differently all the time as evident by the constant changes in info on HIS web site.
Any body interested in a JD or Lisa tape?

The MOTTS are trying to carry on in what they believe were the Professor's wishes for the IMAF. Withh JD in charge of the web site and using the Professor's name( possession 9/10 of the law) the Motts were left no choice but to do what they are doing. There are too many quality people in that group and as long as there are no power issues they should stay a solid group.

Datu Hartman has been running his own group for years now(Can-Am chapter of the IMAF) and with the blessings and guidence of the Professor. He is the Professor's top student and his knowledge, skills nad rank make him more than a rightfull successor to the Professor's art. His new organization, the WMAA is strong and growing with quality people in the background. There is no question as to who is in charge, which is a must for success. Datu's willingness to help people and share information with other groups will take the WMAA a long way. He speaks his mind but at least you know where he's comming from.

Now the above is what we've got. So check them out, talk to the leaders of these groups and see what they have to offer to YOU and to YOUR SCHOOL and not by just enlisting you on paper to put $$ in their pockets. See what they got and you'll know who's got what you need.    :soapbox:


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## Icepick

I think Bloodwood has it right...  a lot of posturing and advertising may help one organization or another in the short term, but over time, the thinking school owners (& students) will meet with all of the organizations and choose the one that provides the most  benefit to them. 

I've seen most of them, just waiting for MARPPIO to come to town!  Though I'm dyed in the wool WMAA, I'll try anything once, twice if I like it.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Icepick _
> *I've seen most of them, just waiting for MARPPIO to come to town!  Though I'm dyed in the wool WMAA, I'll try anything once, twice if I like it. *



I too am affiliated with Mr. Hartman's organization, but unlike both IMAFs and, if I understand them, MARPPIO, Mr. Hartman is not claiming headship of the Modern Arnis system. Thus I consider the WMAA to be in a somewhat different position than these others. I will be sticking with the WMAA.

Many here seem to think that these is only one side to the Jeff Delaney/MOTTs story. I think it's dangerous to hold such a simplistic view but I lack the inside knowledge that some of these posters have. I must admit that the MOTTs have come off looking better than Mr. Delaney in this mess, in my opinion.

It has been interesting to hear the thoughts of posters here but I look forward to having a chance to interact with representatives of each of the groups and form my own opinion. It appears that MARPPIO will be the hardest to sample for those in the Midwest--they have four seminars listed now but all are in littoral states.


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## Mao

Just a couple of comments:
  There should be no ambiguity about who is in charge of any of the respective groups.  As for IMAF,inc., it is Dr. Randi Shea.  Anyone in this org. will tell you this, myself included.  In the WMAA, it's Tim Hartman.  In the others.........WHO CARES      I have tremendous respect for the leaders of both.  I am on the Board of Directors of IMAF,inc. and I still like Gatorade. I do not believe that the fact that we are in diff. org.'s would prohibit us from training together.  The MOTT's also have alot of respect for Tim. I do not believe that the Professors art will be gone soon. Not as long as I have breath. I would venture to say the Whoopass feels the same.  The MOTT's and Timmy too! THATS RIGHT ................I SAID TIMMY:boing2:   I have known all of the aforementioned for a number of years and can say that, with any of them, you'll get Prof. Remy Presas' art of Modern Arnis. None of these people will let anything happen to it.  For this, I am grateful.


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## bloodwood

If this is an olive branch from the IMAF,inc towards the WMAA then we're on the right track. It would be a plesant change of pace.
Thanks MAO


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## Cthulhu

Just tossing my two yen in as a non-biased observer...

I think the fact that Mr. Hartman has made no claims to leadership or successorship to the Modern Arnis system speaks volumes.  He is simply continuing to head the group he had already started, with Professor Presas's blessings.  He isn't unduly advertising (read: whoring) himself and by all appearances is simply doing the best he can to promote his art

Cthulhu
still in mourning and back to lurking


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## Celadora

Conserning the successorship of IMAF arranged by Professor Presas before his passing:

Has it occured to anyone that perhaps the Professor instated the 2 co-successors and 7 MOTTS to see if they could take his real lessons, lessons on living and working together, and put them to good use? A sort of final test, to be sure.  Whether the Professor is now laughing his head off or rolling in his grave with disgust over the split of the IMAF, no one will ever know.  However, I feel like he arranged the matter on purpose as his final test.  And in my opinion, JD and Dr. RS failed.


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## Mao

My comments were not necessarily an offer of an olive branch.  Tim and I do not need an olive branch.  We are already on the right track.  I think that I can speak for IMAF,inc. as I have before in that the group has alot of respect for Datu Hartman.  I can see a day when the two groups work in tandem respectfully and peacefully.  There should not be a chasm twixt the two.  I do not think that that day is far off.
  As for the sucession regarding J.D. and Dr. Shea, Dr. Shea has most definately not failed! He is doing exactly what Prof. Presas asked him to do. J.D. on the other hand has done some things that the Prof. had asked him not to do and not done things that the Prof. had asked him to do.  Perhaps this comment was from someone who doesn't really know the full story.  I think it was George Washington who said "Better to keep your mouth closed and have others think you stupid than open your mouth and prove them right."  I am not aiming that at anyone in particular.  It has been said before that there will be those who don't know all the facts but will still want to comment.  That's fine.  Just be aware that there are those who do know the facts that may correct you.  The only way you'll know is to ask.  Peace.


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> * Dr. Shea has most definately not failed! He is doing exactly what Prof. Presas asked him to do. J.D. on the other hand has done some things that the Prof. had asked him not to do and not done things that the Prof. had asked him to do.  Perhaps this comment was from someone who doesn't really know the full story.*



Most of us do not know the full story, but I think you are failing to see the point made by Celadora. It's a rare situation where one party is 100% at fault and the other party is as pure as the driven snow. Perhaps that is the case here but it seems more likely that, as in any divorce, there is some blame that can be attached to both sides even if one is significantly more at fault than the other. The MOTTs surely feel that they have been wronged by Mr. Delaney; I suspect he feels that he has been wronged or misunderstood; the point is that there may be some truth to both sides.



> *I think it was George Washington who said "Better to keep your mouth closed and have others think you stupid than open your mouth and prove them right."  I am not aiming that at anyone in particular.  It has been said before that there will be those who don't know all the facts but will still want to comment.  That's fine.  Just be aware that there are those who do know the facts that may correct you.*



Ah, may I be delivered from those who can see only their version of the truth.

I am reminded of a kung fu/Modern Arnis instructor in California with whom I worked out for a while. He was a spiritual man who always emphasized that one must be able to see the "infinite capacity for joy and the infinite capacity for sadness" (or for good and for bad) in each person. I took that lesson to heart; it's too easy and too simplistic to write a person off as entirely ill-motivated, entirely selfish. The world of adults has shades of grey where children see only good guys and bad guys.

I might add that those of us who do not know all the facts must make a decision nonetheless, and haughtiness such as this does not incline me towards the MOTTs either. I remind you that questions have arisen concerning the rapid rise in rank of some of them, but apparently some of them are still comfortable throwing rocks.

That quote is anonymous, by the way, but the Book of Proverbs and the writings of Confucious both contain very similar statements. Mark Twain and George Eliot are some others who have used it.


----------



## Mao

Hey Arnisador,

Relax. Don't get your back up in the air.  You obviously, completely missed the point of my post.  I was so not being haughty.  Those who know me know that I am far from being haughty.  Try to get the essence of my post.  The POINT is that Dr. Shea is doing EXACTLY what the Professor asked of him.  The Prof. did not ask him to get into a **** storm with people who only want to argue. He also asked Dr. Shea to work with J.D., more specifically, he appointed Dr. Shea as successor and appointed J.D to help him.  Dr. Shea tried to work with J.D. to the possible detriment of the group. Why, because the Prof. ASKED him to.  J.D. was more interested in furthering his OWN interests.  J.D. made the move of effectively FIRING everyone else because he didn't want to work with THEM.  Take notice that EVERYONE that the Prof. appointed is STILL together except who............J.D..  Does this not say something??  
  I do not see only MY version of the truth.  This is evidenced by the fact that I am still friends with Tim Hartman.  I know what the issues are between he and the MOTT's.  I still think of tim as a brother.  If I only saw MY version, I wouldn't be friendly to both groups.
  Some people ARE entirely ill motivated and selfish and it is naive to not think so, simplistic or not. At this point it certainly NOT a grey area.
  You are entirely right, you must make your own decisoin.  I don't care who your inclined toward. I'm not here to sway you one way or the other. I am simply speaking truth. Some will hear it, some won't. If your going to make an INFORMED decosion, maybe you SHOULD get all the facts.
  Who of the MOTT's have thrown rocks?  WAKE UP!


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

I see that I have a lot of reading to do. The only thing I have to say at the moment is that it's good to be back!


----------



## GouRonin

You mean they threw you out of the country, right?
:lol::ladysman::angel:


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> *Hey Arnisador,
> 
> Relax.*



Consider it done. 



> *
> The POINT is that Dr. Shea is doing EXACTLY what the Professor asked of him.  The Prof. did not ask him to get into a **** storm with people who only want to argue. He also asked Dr. Shea to work with J.D., more specifically, he appointed Dr. Shea as successor and appointed J.D to help him.
> *



Here is an area wherein I am in need of additional facts. My understanding was that Dr. Schea and Mr. Delaney were appointed as co-equals--that both were Co-Successors of equal stature, rights, and responsibilities. Your statement and the statement on the www.modernarnis.net web site seem to imply that Dr. Schea always had a status above and beyond that of Mr. Delaney, who like Dr. Schea and the other MOTTs had a status above and beyond rank. Could you please clarify for me your statement above that I take to mean that Dr. Schea was _the_ successor and that Mr. Delaney was appointed a helpe or assistant to Dr. Schea?



> *J.D. made the move of effectively FIRING everyone else because he didn't want to work with THEM.  *



I simply don't understand how this could happen if Dr. Schea was the Chairman and the Successor. This is a sticking point for me in my understanding of this issue. By what authority could Mr. Delaney fire people without Dr. Schea's approval?



> *
> Take notice that EVERYONE that the Prof. appointed is STILL together except who............J.D..  Does this not say something??  *



Yes, it speaks volumes. I agree.



> *
> Some people ARE entirely ill motivated and selfish and it is naive to not think so, simplistic or not. At this point it certainly NOT a grey area.*



Do you believe that Mr. Delaney is such a person? I gather that the answer is Yes. Still, I wonder if he wouldn't tell a similar tale of non-cooperation and having the best interests of the art at heart. I am loathe to believe that the the Professor could be quite this naive, despite his aversion to inter-personal confrontation and his predisposition toward seeing the best in people.



> *
> You are entirely right, you must make your own decisoin.  I don't care who your inclined toward. I'm not here to sway you one way or the other. I am simply speaking truth. Some will hear it, some won't. If your going to make an INFORMED decosion, maybe you SHOULD get all the facts.
> *



I appreciate the comments and information. I am unable to consider the source as I do not know you beyond what I know of you from your postings here. (Well, perhaps we have crossed paths and even sticks.) But indeed I must make a decision and woould like it to be an informed one. Fortunately I have faith in Mr. Hartman's guidance in this matter.



> *
> Who of the MOTT's have thrown rocks?  WAKE UP! *



At or about Mr. Delaney? Has this not happened?

Perhaps the situation is as one-sided as you say, but perhaps also you will grant that situations such as these are _very_ rarely as one-sided as either of the sides states.


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## Brian Johns

<<<<I simply don't understand how this could happen if Dr. Schea was the Chairman and the Successor. This is a sticking point for me in my understanding of this issue. By what authority could Mr. Delaney fire people without Dr. Schea's approval? >>>>

Simply put, JD had control of the website. He used that website to fire everyone and install himself and others to his so called board. See the home page of professorpresas.com.   Look at who's the Chairman and who he installed on this so called board.  JD just made a move on his own. You asked "by what authority could Mr. Delaney fire people without Dr. Schea's approval ?" That question proves the point. He had no authority to do what he did, which is precisely why the MOTTs have now formed their own organization and came out with their own website. They have tried to work with JD to no avail. 

WOO!!


----------



## Mao

Dear Arnisador,
  Please forgive the irritation in my last post.  As you can tell, modern arnis is one of my passions. That and of course my lovely wife who, by the way, is sitting with me now adding her view which is an informed one as she has known everything that I do about the issues.  Datu Hartman can attest to her candidness.
  As has been infered, Prof. Presas could certainly have done a better job of laying things out in terms of leadership.  He did the best he could inder the circumstances as I'm sure he did not plan to fall ill.  Be that as it may, there are those who are where they are because Prof. put them there.  I, and others, had sat by unable to effect any change for some time.  The larger picture was not that difficult to see for some because we all knew each other, and some of us even, of all things, communicated.  I had the opportunity to know what certain peoples opinion was of some other certain persons.  I realize that this may sound vague. I do not want to use names right now.  I know how the Prof. felt about certain people and why.  He had always considered Dr. Shea the chairman of the board.  He and all but one of the MOTT's are still a very tight group.  We intend to run things as professionally and ethically as possible.  I applaud anyone who chooses to be a part of WMAA.  Tim knows well what he's doing.  I would applaud, perhaps even a little more  , anyone who chooses join IMAF,inc..  Both are very good groups run by very knowledgable people.  
  I do agree that there are always more than one side to a story. I just happen to know, to a large extent, the real story, the in's and out's, the real deal, the inside skinny as it were.  
  I would be happy to answer any questions asked of me.  You understand the statement regarding Dr. Sheas positoin correctly.  Any more questions?  C'mon, bring it ! That's what I'm talkin' 'bout!  Uh huh!


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> *Be that as it may, there are those who are where they are because Prof. put them there.  I, and others, had sat by unable to effect any change for some time.  The larger picture was not that difficult to see for some because we all knew each other, and some of us even, of all things, communicated.  I had the opportunity to know what certain peoples opinion was of some other certain persons.  I realize that this may sound vague. I do not want to use names right now.  I know how the Prof. felt about certain people and why.  He had always considered Dr. Shea the chairman of the board.  He and all but one of the MOTT's are still a very tight group.  We intend to run things as professionally and ethically as possible.
> *



Mao, thanks for providing your information and persopective and I apologize to you for my tone. Modern Arnis is also important to me and as I sit here many miles away from all that is happening it is quite frustrating! I see that as you say all but one of those chosen to lead are attempting to maintain cohesion and the Professor's positive atmosphere. I was somewhat dismayed by the Professor's evident decision, in the end, not to include my friend and instructor Mr. Hartman, but he has done very well for himself and needs no sympathy from me.



> *
> I do agree that there are always more than one side to a story. I just happen to know, to a large extent, the real story, the in's and out's, the real deal, the inside skinny as it were.
> I would be happy to answer any questions asked of me.  You understand the statement regarding Dr. Sheas positoin correctly.  Any more questions?  C'mon, bring it ! That's what I'm talkin' 'bout!  Uh huh!  *



The fact that Dr. Schea was alone at the top and that Mr. Delaney was not co-equal with him is different than what I had understood, though I have had much more opportunity to read Mr. Delaney's statements in Black Belt etc. than any by Dr. Schea. Allow me to raise a possibly delicate question: I have met Dr. Schea but it has been many years. Mr. Delaney claims to have been traveling and training with the Professor extensively before his death. I have heard that Dr. Schea had been relatively inactive in the practice of arnis recently due to the pressures of his day job. I would appreciate comment on this--I would be happy to hear that I have been misinformed once again!--and am curious how active he as head of the IMAF will be in seminars and other teaching events. If Mr. Delaney's claims are accurate then Mr. Delaney certainly seems to have been the person the Professor was physically preparing to succeed him as instructor (between him and Dr. Schea). Perhaps this is my question: Had there not been a schism, what would Mr. Delaney's intended role have been, and what would Dr. Schea's intended role have been--what was entailed in the position of "Chairman of the IMAF"? I am imagining that Mr. Delaney would have been the chief instructor and that Dr. Schea would have been the chief administrator. Were there disagreements about each person's scope of authority preceding the "firing" by Mr. Delaney?

I understand that the Professor trusted Dr. Schea. Not only is Dr. Schea a pleasant, polite, and respectful individual, but the Professor was himself always very respectful of an educated person, particularly teachers and physicians. I have little doubt but that Dr. Schea is acting in what he perceives as the art's best interests. I wish I could hear Mr. Delaney's side of this story; he has written a lot but not on this particular issue that I have seen. His claim of sole successorship seems to contradict his own earlier claims of co-successorship and I find the self-styled title of "Grandmaster" that he is using a bit unsettling.

Here's what I would truly like to see: A copy of the relevant portion of the will or other document that set up this structure. Is this information publicly available? Is not a will generally public information, as a matter of law? There have been so many references to it.


----------



## Celadora

People sure get defensive aweful quickly around here!

About the ¨failing¨of JD and Dr. Schea:

There sure is a lot of Delany-bashhing going on.  Up until about a month ago, I would have been willing to defend him in one aspect; no he is not following the guidelines set by the Professor and yes he might appear as power-hungry, but I felt that he was doing what he thought was best for the future of the IMAF, as misguided as that might be.  And I gave him credit for that.  However, now I do not feel comfortable saying such, things have gone too far astray.

But the failing of Dr. Schea as well: Arnisador praises Dr. Schea for his eduaction, his intellegence, his leadership abilities.  He is the elder and the diplomat; could it be that the Professor laid the responsibility of holding the group together on his shoulders, feeling that he was the most capable to do such?  Since I aparently do not know the whole story, could someone answer me this question: When things first began to look shakey a year ago, did Dr. Schea ever go to Delaney as friends, sit down with him, and politely talk about how to keep the group united and share their aparent co-leadership?  Or did he wait around without acting until Delaney had gone so far that the MOTT´s had no other choice to be branch off or get fired or whatever story you choose to quote?  I like the question posed about, ¨Where was Dr.Schea when Delaney was getting his name in Black Belt magazine and leading seminars and such?¨ 

When a parent dies and inheritance is divided between a large family, some families are torn apart by the fighting of who gets what, while others remain united and as close as ever.  Is it that the inheritance is shared equally in some families and in others no? Doubtful; there is always someone who gets something extra, a favorite heirloom or such.  What holds some families together is maturaty and companionship, the ability to overlook minor differences and work together. And the ability to keep each other in line when one person begins to stray afar.

Guilt truly is shared by all.


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## arnisador

Celadora offers an interesting perspective.

On the other hand, the splits have happened and I think that one must soon begin focusing on the actions of the various groups rather than how they came to be. I look forward to attending a seminar or camp sponsored by each of the groups. I think that I will be able to tell if the let's have fun and learn feeling that I expect is there.


----------



## spdmn

> I have met Dr. Schea but it has been many years. Mr. Delaney claims to have been traveling and training with the Professor extensively before his death. I have heard that Dr. Schea had been relatively inactive in the practice of arnis recently due to the pressures of his day job. I would appreciate comment on this--I would be happy to hear that I have been misinformed once again!--and am curious how active he as head of the IMAF will be in seminars and other teaching events. If Mr. Delaney's claims are accurate then Mr. Delaney certainly seems to have been the person the Professor was physically preparing to succeed him as instructor (between him and Dr. Schea). Perhaps this is my question: Had there not been a schism, what would Mr. Delaney's intended role have been, and what would Dr. Schea's intended role have been--what was entailed in the position of "Chairman of the IMAF"? I am imagining that Mr. Delaney would have been the chief instructor and that Dr. Schea would have been the chief administrator.



As far as I know, Dr. Schea has also been travelling with the Professor, may not be every seminar but often enough.  People that know Dr. Schea recognize he is always in the background helping.  

Chuck Guass and Ken Smith had also travelled extensively with the Professor.  I have trained with Chuck and all the MOTT's, and Tim Hartman.  Everyone of them has far more experience than JD.  I had also attended seminars with JD, which was far from enlightenment.

To respond to Arnisadoris's comment, even if Dr. Schea is not around, any one of the MOTT's can easily be the Chief Instructor.


----------



## Mao

Most who know Dr. Shea will agree that he is not nor does he choose to be the front man so to speak.  He is always there in a quieter capacity.  He has very strong leadership and guidance skills.  He is a quiet, soft spoken person. That is not to say that he is weak.   Cross sticks with him and you can tell that he is and exceptional practitioner.  
  To touch on Arnisador's question, Dr. Shea had traveled with the Prof. quit a alot also. Tim Hartman had traveled with the Prof. alot, too.  Chuck Gauss and Ken Smith also.  These people had traveled with the Prof. for several years.  J.D. had only relatively recently benn doing this, perhaps for the last few years.
  As for what Dr. Shea had been doing while J.D. had been doing his thing, I personally asked him this question.  In part, his answer was that he was not about changing what the Prof. had done but was about moving forward from the now.  He did try to talk to J.D. about the issues between J.D. and the other MOTT's.  J.D. did have issues with them. One of them was that he didn't feel that he was getting enough respect from them.  Their side would be that he got the respect that he deserved.  Anyone who has trained with any of these people could tell the vast difference between them.  The MOTT's had tried to work with  J.D., however, J.D. would almost always separate himself from them. For instance, if one of the MOTT 's was teaching a segment at a camp, J.D. would disapear whereas the other MOTT's would be around to help.  J.D. was usually off with someone who is now part of his group.  This woman had about 3-4 years in the art.  The point to all this is that people tried to work with J.D. but he seemed to want to have his own gig form the beginning.  He seemed to separate himself most of the time. This is also evidenced by his actions with regards to the former website.  He began excluding everyone else.  Tim Hartman can speak to this.  
I sincerely hope that people can attend a camp with IMAF,inc. so that they can see first hand the enthusiasm and energy and cohesion of this group.


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> *  As for what Dr. Shea had been doing while J.D. had been doing his thing, I personally asked him this question.  *



Thanks for this information; it is enlightening.



> * For instance, if one of the MOTT 's was teaching a segment at a camp, J.D. would disapear whereas the other MOTT's would be around to help.  J.D. was usually off with someone who is now part of his group. *



This speaks volumes to me--I remember at how many camps in the late 80s and early 90s Mr. Hartman and I bore the brunt of the instructional duties while other black belts schmoozed and lounged. It was just the right thing to do. We were not kind in our comments to one another concerning those who cared more for politicking than helping.



> *
> I sincerely hope that people can attend a camp with IMAF,inc. so that they can see first hand the enthusiasm and energy and cohesion of this group. *



I hope to be able to do so.

Thanks again for your comments. I only wish that a representative of Mr. Delaney's organizaztion would participate as well.


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## spdmn

Mao,


> if one of the MOTT 's was teaching a segment at a camp, J.D. would disapear whereas the other MOTT's would be around to help. J.D. was usually off with someone who is now part of his group. This woman had about 3-4 years in the art.



This woman is a third degree blackbelt in Modern Arnis.  She is going to come get you.  Her son is the youngest blackbelt in Moderen Arnis as well.

With all jokes aside, we should all attempt to attend as many camps as possible from IMAF. Inc, and Tim's group to learn and compare.  

Cheers.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by spdmn _
> *Her son is the youngest blackbelt in Moderen Arnis as well.*



How old is this person?


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## Bob Hubbard

Admin Note : Jeff Delany was sent an invitation on 2 occations to either personally or by rep participate in the discussions here.  To date, no reply has been received.

He was also asked for information to contribute to the GM Remy Presas memorial page hosted by us. No reply was received.

We have reps from the WMAA, MARPPIO and IMAF, Inc.  I would love to have reps from other Arnis organizations here. If you know of any, please send them an invite.  The more the merrier. 

As always, the input of ALL martial organizations and members is welcome here, provided they can do so in a mature manner.

Peace.

:asian:


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## spdmn

Arnisador,

I think he is twelve.  A well mannered young person, would be a very good martial artist if trained under the right person.


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## Mao

Hey spdmm,
  You don't think she heard me do you?  
As to her son, he is quite a nice young man.  He is a pleasure to have around, you know, young, energetic, I remember being that way.  
 As to comparing IMAF,inc. and WMAA, the only thing that I can compare Tim to is....................................................well, never mind.


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## spdmn

Mao,



> As to comparing IMAF,inc. and WMAA, the only thing that I can compare Tim to is....................................................well, never mind.



I also heard some not so heart-warming stories about Tim and why the WMAA was formed.  

You and I may not agree with his personality but I think he is still a decent martial artist.

I hope the IMAF, Inc. Winter camp will have a good turn out.


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by spdmn _
> *I also heard some not so heart-warming stories about Tim and why the WMAA was formed.
> *



People do like to gossip, I suppose, but my experience with Mr. Hartman with respect to arnis has been uniformly positive. Mr. Hartman has always been first to help at camps where many others were unwilling (not all others of course but far too many). He was the Professor's favorite dmonstration partner and often the only person who knew the anyos--other black belts would come to him to learn them. He was a serious _student_ of arnis.



> *
> You and I may not agree with his personality but I think he is still a decent martial artist.
> *



Mr. Hartman's intensity may be off-putting to some but I know he has always been well thought of by students, both his own and those at camps and seminars. He has not always held his tongue as well as he might have during some of the recent difficulties I suppose.



> *
> I hope the IMAF, Inc. Winter camp will have a good turn out. *



Indeed! I look forward to the IMAF, Inc. holding one suitably near me. Regrettably I live in the middle of nowhere, where few events come.


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## Mao

Tim started the WMAA for some specific reasons.  Many of them I know about.  The reasons are his to share.  I do not think that what he chose to do was wrong, for him.  It would certainly be nice if we were all on one team.  The fact that there two different teams does not mean that we dislike each other.  I consider Tim a friend, in spite of many things that have transpired.  I feel like I understand Tim.  The "not so heartwarming" stories could be true, but one would have to know Tims perspective to understand the why's.  Tim is passionate about what he does. In that, the IMAF,inc. and the WMAA are the same.  If people get to see both they would be able to see the similarities.  
By the way, I think it was Arnisador who said they live in the middle of nowhere where events seldom go.  I would be glad to help you out on that one. 
Also, I'm glad that Gatorade is back safe from Inga-land.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> *By the way, I think it was Arnisador who said they live in the middle of nowhere where events seldom go.  I would be glad to help you out on that one. *



I believe that Mr. Gauss gave a seminar recently in Indianapolis at Mr. Higginbotham's dojo. Unfortunately I did not hear about it until after the event. A seminar in Indianapolis is my best bet. Chicago and St. Louis are a bit too far unfortunately.


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## arnisador

The IMAF web site (before the creation of the IMAF, Inc.'s web site) had said that Dr. Schea and Mr. Delaney had been named co-successors and co-_grandmasters_. Did the Professor, in words or in his will, ever use the precise term "grandmaster" to describe Dr. Schea and/or Mr. Delaney, or was this an inaccuracy that was posted to the site?


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## Datu Tim Hartman

As far as I've been told the words were successor and JD was Randi's assitant.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

This is a quote from modernarnis.com - snapshot taken on March 1st, 2001.



> The first order of business conducted by Professor Presas was the establishment of succession planning for IMAF. Professor declared that Jeff Delaney, Executive Director - IMAF, and Randi Schea, M.D., Chairman - IMAF, were to be named as Co-Successors for IMAF. Jeff Delaney, as Co-Successor is responsible for the execution and application of the strategic agendas, and to establish and maintain ambassador status to all U.S. and international IMAF instructors, camp directors, and affiliated schools. Jeff Delaney is to remain as Executive Director of the IMAF. Dr. Schea, as Co-Successor, is responsible for the strategic agendas of the IMAF and to ensure its corporate organizational success, internal operations, and its financial and fiscal posterity. Dr. Schea is to remain as Chairman for the IMAF. Professor Presas also named Jeff Delaney and Dr. Randi Schea as Co-Grandmasters, for the IMAF. This declaration was made to the IMAF members listed in section (1) above and declared effective immediately.



Rest of information available at the archive.org site.
http://web.archive.org/web/20010309070519/modernarnis.com/Press.htm

I think this states that they were both co-successor and co-grandmaster.  JD to do the front end, RS to run the back end.


:asian:


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *
> I think this states that they were both co-successor and co-grandmaster.  JD to do the front end, RS to run the back end.
> *



Thanks Kaith, this is my recollection of what was on the web page as well, and it does not seem to imply that Mr. Delaney's status was in any way inferior to that of Dr. Schea.

I understand that the web page was under Mr. Delaney's control--I assume that the IMAF, Inc. position is that what Kaith has quoted was written by Mr. Delaney and was not entirely accurate? If not then it is at odds with the notion that Mr. Delaney was Dr. Schea's assistant.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

archive.org is neat...its a snapshot at websites over the last 5 years or so.  very easy to look back and see what used to be there.


----------



## Mao

The above couple of posts illustrates the frustration that certain people were having with that particular website for some time.  It became the J.D. Show.  Myself and Renegade had many conversations about this.  The fact, once again, that the other MOTT's are still together speaks volumes.  I restate:  J.D. was told TO do some things that he did not and was told NOT to do some things that he did, by the Prof..  In the end, it seems that it did not matter since he went off by himself anyway.


----------



## Jynx

A heated discussion!  What a great forum!


----------



## arnisador

I hadn't noticed before that Terry Wareham is officially affiliated with the IMAF, Inc., as a member of its Board. I was wondering which way he'd go--I respect Mr. Wareham's integrity. On the other hand, Al Garza is on the Board as well, and he persists in sending me grossly irrelevant junk e-mail promoting his religious beliefs and personal charitable causes despite requests to stop. There's a negative.


----------



## Guro Harold

Al Garza' camp flyer includes Raleigh's, Terry's and Ken's camp.  It is on his website http://www.algarza.com/.

Also see below

Summer Camp June 20-23, 2002
Lansing, MI    Contact: Terry Wareham

Fall Camp October 18-20, 2002 
Orlando Park, IL    Contact: Ken Smith

Palusut


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Palusut _
> *Al Garza' camp flyer includes Raleigh's, Terry's and Ken's camp.*



Al Garza sends me garbage via e-mail all the time, often promoting his religious beliefs and charitable causes, not arnis. I find his behaviour _most_ inappropriate.


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## Cthulhu

Start collecting the spam he sends you, along with your requests for him to stop.  Then send all of that to his ISP and maybe they'll get him to stop, one way or another.

Cthulhu


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## Datu Tim Hartman

why don't you send my your address that he keeps spaming you on and I'll see what I can do.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *why don't you send my your address that he keeps spaming you on and I'll see what I can do. *



It is the address you have for me. I appreciate the offer of assistance, Mr. Hartman, but I was more commenting on his character than requesting help. I have asked to be removed from his list and from Mr. de Leon's list; Mr. de Leon complied (after a few requests) but Mr. Garza has not, and I feel justified in drawing a conclusion concerning a person who repeatedly sends me advertisements for his personal beliefs despite my requests that he stop. I did complain to his ISP but without success.


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## Bob Hubbard

Many US states and several countries have anti-spam laws.  Where is the individual located?  Perhaps some digging and a registered letter on legal letterhead may convince them to stop.

Or.... We can take his addy and subscribe him to a variety of mailing lists that will annoy him.  

Or just post his addy on RMA and the spambots will find it and fill his box for ya. 

Personally, I find a 4x4 upside the head of a spamer to be more satisfying. (and yes, I do mean the truck, not the wood) 

:asian:


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## arnisador

I notice that both IMAFs list their missing co-successor as inactive:
http://www.professorpresas.com/
http://www.modernarnis.net/about/master.shtml
It's both amusing and sad. Neither page is at all accurate, the IMAF, Inc. does make it clear that Mr. Delaney is not active in the IMAF, Inc. whereas his page makes it sound more as though Dr. Schea has retired completely.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

It just shows how screwed up things are in the Modern Arnis world! I think that it says a lot about the parties involved. 2 IMAFs just confuses things. 

Jeff D. formed IMAF Inc. or *I'M A Finc,* (which ever you prefer) while Remy was still alive. This was in Professor's will for a group of Modern Arnis people to form after his death. Then Jeff put his own people in administrative positions and left the remaining MOTTs out of the picture. On top of which, he puts on his site (erroneously) that Randi Shea has resigned. This should speak volumes of JD's character!

We also have the Randi Shea group. The IMAF*,* group. On the surface, the only way you can tell the difference between the groups is the punctuation, if you know what you're looking for. They put on there sight that JD is not an active member of the group.  Of course, neither group mentions that both use the same letters! In this case two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't feel that either group has a clue a on certain issue. The organizational name WILL NOT make their group succeed. Its success will be measured by their performance. If they are depending on the IMAF letters alone, I feel that they should go into another business. If they want the name so bad, then fight it out in court but in the meantime the MOTTs should use another name before JD does anymore damage to their reputation. 

It would be nice to hear from one of the steering board members from Shea's group or one of JD's people. The only people we hear from are MAO & Whoop *** who are from the IMAF, Inc. Board of Directors, which seem to be more like state reps. But this doesn't surprise me. While I was an IMAF member I only heard from people when they would host seminars and camps. The only exception to this was MAO and myself. We did and still do call each other a couple times a month. 

What's next? Maybe a third group will be formed, IMAF,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Inc........



:soapbox: :wink:


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## Red Blade

My question is, when is the Dr. Shea group going to update their site? It was put up in October and nothing has been done with it. The majority of the site is still under construction.

Seasons Greetings, 
Red Blade


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## bloodwood

I agree with renegade on the IMAF name. It can be confusing to those looking at Modern Arnis for the first time or those getting back to it after a layoff. The MOTTS would be better off with a clean break. Let JD keep the name, who cares. Actions speak the loudest and from what I've seen personally at JD and his new executive director's seminars there's not much to get excited about. They are starting to bring in outside organizations not associated with arnis to liven things up to the dismay of many at the seminars. I have also heard that the IMAF exec. director (Michael Bates, according to their web site) has tried to kick one of his former students, who has their own school under the IMAF out of the IMAF for training with others outside the IMAF organization. Is this what they have to do to hold onto their membership? If this is true how sad for JD and his group. The Professor would train with many different people and groups, so why is the IMAF putting the clamps on it's membership? So MOTTS, for your own good disassociate yourselves with JD and his paranoid top executive. You will be lumped together whether you like it or not by mere letters of the alphabet. The solution is to move on, the choice to do so is yours.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Red Blade _
> *My question is, when is the Dr. Shea group going to update their site? It was put up in October and nothing has been done with it. The majority of the site is still under construction.
> *



Indeed, that is somewhat frustrating--I look forward to seeing their many "under construction" pages filled in. Who is in charge of the IMAF, Inc. web site?

This goes to the issue of there being no one at the top of the IMAF, Inc. who does Modern Arnis full time, unless I am mistaken in that belief. I know that Dr. Schea does not do it full time (nor does he currently practice medicine full time I think). I believe that Mr. Delaney does do the martial arts full time--is that correct?


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## Mao

1) last I heard J.d.. was an electrical contractor.
  2) Dr. Shea has a "real" job, however he logs many hours in  
       working at what Remy asked him to.
  3) which leads me to; Remy asked Dr. Shea to continue IMAF,
       however the actions of J.D. made this quite difficult, hence,
       IMAF,inc.,  in keeping with what Remy asked Dr. Shea to do.
  4) I also have a "real" job but log full time hours in keeping a
      School open. I am the modern arnis portion of this school and
      I teach it as the entire system that it is. I also happen to be 
      one of the aikido instructors.
  5) I could address the MOTT and Datu issue but I don't know if
       it's worth the can of worms. Remy told me many things,
       MOTT's have told me what Remy told them, Renegade has
       told me what his understanding is. In the end I still don't
       think it's worth the can of worms. It would more than likely
       lead to obvious differences of opinion and from there
       possible hard feelings. People are where *Remy put them.* These were not self appointed titles.  
  6) As for the term "active", I'm sure that there would be
      arguement from others, particularly another datu who will
      remain nameless. The issue would most likely be definition of
      active.  I don't think that out of sight always means inactive.
      I still love you Renegade.      :moon:


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## Datu Tim Hartman

No problem MAO. Wish the family and Whoop *** Merry Chritmas for me.

Tim


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## Mao

I will do that Renegade. Give Janice and your vicious beasts a hug.  Just be sure to hug the right end of the rotweiller's. They may not like it otherwise and share their bodily functions with you.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> *1) last I heard J.d.. was an electrical contractor.*



Thanks, I had thought that that had changed with his new status. Perhaps it will if the IMAF is successful.



> *
> 3) which leads me to; Remy asked Dr. Shea to continue IMAF,
> however the actions of J.D. made this quite difficult, hence,
> IMAF,inc.,  in keeping with what Remy asked Dr. Shea to do.
> *



I understand. However I would think that it would be desireable to have a full-time person somewhere near the top in either IMAF. I realize this may not be possible.



> *
> 4) I also have a "real" job but log full time hours in keeping a
> School open. I am the modern arnis portion of this school and
> I teach it as the entire system that it is. I also happen to be
> one of the aikido instructors.
> *



I understand. Most people who teach the martial arts will not be able to make a living from doing so, and dedication like this is what keeps the arts alive and healthy. I was suggesting that there should be a full-time Grandmaster of Modern Arnis somewhere, or at least that that would be desireable. Maintenance of the web sites, which started this, is only one reason for that.



> *People are where Remy put them. These were not self appointed titles.
> *



Agreed, in both respects.



> *I still love you Renegade. *



Let me think about this one.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Mao is talking about love of a family member, not romantic. If he was meaning it romantically I can't blame him, because I'm one sexy guy!!!!! Before we have another discussion. I like Girls! Guys are too hairy for my taste.



:ladysman:


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *I'm one sexy guy!!!!! *



Hmmmm...I had thought we had met before but it appears that I must have been mistaken--it must have been someone else.  

Merry Xmas Timmy! The wife and kids send their regards.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

If you inssist on calling me Timmy on this forum, I won't let you break that bone that I owe you!!!


:samurai: :argue: :uzi: :ninja:


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *If you inssist on calling me Timmy on this forum, I won't let you break that bone that I owe you!!!*



Admit it--for me, I've been very civil and dignified! But thanks for reminding me of the Christmas Day I spent in pain and the December 26_th_ I spent in the ER thanks to you.

The funny thing is, you demonstrated the technique with the stick first and it was fine, then you demonstrated the open-hand variation and...well, I think every person in that room heard the _pop!!!_ when it happened.

See you in May, _Mr._ Hartman...


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Looking forward to your visit. For the record, Tim is fine. My Grandfather would call me Timmy. You make me think of him every time you say that. Your not old enough to be thought of that way, or are you??

 :rofl:


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *Looking forward to your visit. For the record, Tim is fine. My Grandfather would call me Timmy. You make me think of him every time you say that. Your not old enough to be thought of that way, or are you??*



Heh. Writing is a formal medium and I have adopted a formal tone. Rest assured that in person I will still address you as _Timmy_ in a false Filipino accent.

I'll be there in May. It'll give me a chance to visit family in the area as well.


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## arnisador

I note that the IMAF, Inc. web page is now much improved.

It is explained that:


> the title of Masters of Tapi-Tapi, representing the highest level of achievement in Modern Arnis proficiency.



This is not out of line with Punong Guro meaning "teacher of teachers"--presumably awarded for excellence in teaching the art--and Datu meaning chieftain or leader, awarded for service to and leadership of the art. Still, should we take this to mean that:
Master of Tapi-Tapi Randi Schea
Master of Tapi-Tapi Chuck Gauss
Master of Tapi-Tapi James Ladis
Master of Tapi-Tapi Gaby Roloff
Master of Tapi-Tapi Ken Smith
Master of Tapi-Tapi Brian Zawilinski
Master of Tapi-Tapi Jeff Delaney
are the most skilled of all living Modern Arnis practitioners?


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## Tapps

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> *Temper, temper Regenade. Don't be so ready to go off! My, how stereotypically New Yorker of you. Now remember, I'm from there too so I can say that. :boing2: :uzi: *




Hi,

I just jumped on this thread and I feel a compelling need to defend Renegade.

He's not a " New Yorker"   he's a Buffalonian. 

Better beer, better accents and snow up the wazzooo.


Also be forwarned that "his sister called him timmy once .... once":rofl:


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## Tapps

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I note that the IMAF, Inc. web page is now much improved.
> 
> It is explained that:
> 
> 
> This is not out of line with Punong Guro meaning "teacher of teachers"--presumably awarded for excellence in teaching the art--and Datu meaning chieftain or leader, awarded for service to and leadership of the art. Still, should we take this to mean that:
> Master of Tapi-Tapi Randi Schea
> Master of Tapi-Tapi Chuck Gauss
> Master of Tapi-Tapi James Ladis
> Master of Tapi-Tapi Gaby Roloff
> Master of Tapi-Tapi Ken Smith
> Master of Tapi-Tapi Brian Zawilinski
> Master of Tapi-Tapi Jeff Delaney
> are the most skilled of all living Modern Arnis practitioners? *



I would have to give a resounding NO to this question. Simple reason: The Highest ranked active member of Modern Arnis ( Tim Hartman) was not included.

Don't get me wrong, I've banged sticks with most of these people. They were all certified to teach modern Arnis by Remy Presas. Some of them are very good, others I respect and some I wouldn't pay 10 cents to train with. Who's who ... I leave to the readers discretion. I always encourage people to see what's out there and draw your own conclusion.

My issue is the whole title "MOTT"

It didn't exsist before Remy fell ill. And I've NEVER heard of a Title that superceeds rank 
(unless you count grandmaster and in my opinion there will always be one grandmaster in Modern Arnis: Remy Presas, RIP)

I do not question the right of any of the MOTTs to teach Modern Arnis. I don't begrudge them the right to add there own style to it (Remy encouraged that).

I do not recognize them as a governing body, with the exception of Randi Shea who was chairman of the IMAF BEFORE Professor Presas' illness. Remy openly acknowledged him as such in front of many witness. 

I plan to train with IMAF members in the future. I will likely see at least one of the MOTTs at seminars.  This issue,however, was the biggest factor in my decision to join the WMAA instead of the IMAF.


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## Dan Anderson

Dear Tapps,
I would agree with you that MOTTs are not the highest of the high. :soapbox: I have crossed sticks with several of them thru the years and have coached several of them in the past as well.  Any fighter knows that on any given day, one might beat another...and get beaten in turn the next.  To state that a particular aspect of skill or technique represents the zenith of the art, well I have difficulties with that one. :flame:  Modern Arnis has a number of aspects or approaches, Tapi-Tapi being one of them.  I have met with a number of Modern Arnis practitioners and they are all sincere in their teaching.  This is good.  Several claim to be best or true heirs.  This is touchy.  Remember the William Cheung/Emin Boztepe incident which happened in Germany in years past.  That would be unfortunate for it to happen again in a Modern Arnis setting.  :uhoh:   Anyway, that's my two cents on it...three, maybe.
Dan Anderson
6th Degree Black Belt Senior Master Modern Arnis 
PS  See y'all in Buffalo in May :drinkbeer


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## Tapps

Looking forward to seeing you.

Wings and Beer are a must !!


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