# Anyone heard of this guy?



## Operator06 (Nov 19, 2004)

This is from a post I placed in the Chinese Martial Arts forum, the gentleman also claims to hold rank in Chinese Kenpo so I figured I post it here too...


_I ran across this guy's website fishing around on the net. __http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/robertsmith/_

_He claims to have taught SEAL Teams H2H in 1968. HOw true is this and does anyone know if indeed he was a SEAL Team Operator?_


Quote:
The Dragon was a Navy Seal and assistant martial arts instructor for the Navy Seals in 1968


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 19, 2004)

Simple enough to check on his background with the SEALS, I suppose.  If he's a fraud, they'll find out.  

He says he designed one of the weapons on the page...all he did was add another hook to a Chinese hook sword.  

I'm skeptical.


Regards,

Steve


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## kenpoworks (Nov 19, 2004)

_*I ran across this guy's website fishing around on the net*_

_If I caught this while fishing, i'd throw it back._
_No!, seriously far to much diversfied rank to be genuine (imo)._
_You can't have toooo many 10th degrees on your C.V.now can you._
_He wasn't even called "the" Dragon, just menacingly...... Dragon._
_Respectfully _
_Tiga _
_10 degree won hung lo_


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## KempoShaun (Nov 19, 2004)

Sijo Smith is legitimate.  In my limited contacts with him, through my insturctor, KenpoJoe (who trains with Sijo Smith), I have come to respect this man immensely.  His knowledge of Chin-Na is truly awe-inspiring.  From what I've seen of the Shao Choy Hung system, it is extremly effective.  I've contacted KenpoJoe so that he will hopefully come and give more detailed insight into Sijo Smith.  

Namaste.  :asian:


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## KenpoDave (Nov 19, 2004)

Kenpo5th said:
			
		

> Sijo Smith is legitimate.  In my limited contacts with him, through my insturctor, KenpoJoe (who trains with Sijo Smith), I have come to respect this man immensely.  His knowledge of Chin-Na is truly awe-inspiring.  From what I've seen of the Shao Choy Hung system, it is extremly effective.  I've contacted KenpoJoe so that he will hopefully come and give more detailed insight into Sijo Smith.
> 
> Namaste.  :asian:



Isn't Robert Smith the guy who wrote the two books called something like "Secret Fighting Techniques of the World" that was basically a fun, interesting, fictional read about a guy who traveled the world looking for secret techniques?


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## Blindside (Nov 20, 2004)

Hi Dave,

This is definately NOT the same guy.  Robert W. Smith has written a number of books (martial musings, comprehensive asian fighting arts (with Draeger), etc), but was primarily a judo and then internal kung-fu practioner.  This guys resume reads bit different.  Besides, if I was the author of 14 books, I'd put it on my website. 

Lamont


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## Goldendragon7 (Nov 20, 2004)

Anybody with that many ultra high ranks is bogus. There is not enough time on God's green earth to be legit with that resume! They most likely are "bought", "crossed over" or the very prevalent.... "good ole boy" promotion routine. 

 No doubt the man has "some" sort of ability or experience but more of a "jack of all trades master of none" {except with *official certification*, of course ..... lol}.

 Funny to visit these guys sites  however, lets you know where NOT to study!


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## Disco (Nov 20, 2004)

http://www.authentiseal.org/index.htm


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## John Bishop (Nov 20, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Anybody with that many ultra high ranks is bogus. There is not enough time on God's green earth to be legit with that resume! They most likely are "bought", "crossed over" or the very prevalent.... "good ole boy" promotion routine.
> 
> No doubt the man has "some" sort of ability or experience but more of a "jack of all trades master of none" {except with *official certification*, of course ..... lol}.
> 
> Funny to visit these guys sites however, lets you know where NOT to study!


It must be a coincidence that the "masters" that vouch for their legitmacy usually have 10-20 high ranks of their own.     Whole lot of back slapping going on.


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## Goldendragon7 (Nov 20, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> It must be a coincidence that the "masters" that vouch for their legitmacy usually have 10-20 high ranks of their own.     Whole lot of back slapping going on.


 Yep!   But what the heck do I know....... I'm just a local.  :idunno:


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 20, 2004)

If he's legit, he's legit.  Smith has nothing to worry about if his SEAL claims are true.

Check out the "Wall of Shame" at the link posted above.  Lots of names.  He isn't on it...yet.

As for his martial arts claims...if it turns out his SEAL claims are bogus, I wouldn't trust him on any other issue.  If he's a SEAL, his integrity and work ethic are likely stellar.

Regards,


Steve


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## KempoShaun (Nov 20, 2004)

Does anyone else find it a sad state of affairs when we have to question every single person's credentials?  There are so many fakes and frauds out there, that they have destroyed the credibility of the real Martial Artists like Sijo Smith.  This man has dedicated his entire life to spread the wealth of the Martial Arts, and all we can do is criticize because he isn't someone who is "well Known."  Very sad indeed.

Namaste :asian:


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 20, 2004)

Kenpo5th said:
			
		

> Does anyone else find it a sad state of affairs when we have to question every single person's credentials?  There are so many fakes and frauds out there, that they have destroyed the credibility of the real Martial Artists like Sijo Smith.  This man has dedicated his entire life to spread the wealth of the Martial Arts, and all we can do is criticize because he isn't someone who is "well Known."  Very sad indeed.
> 
> Namaste :asian:



There are some very well known martial artists and military people who have represented their credentials.

As for it being sad, yes...it is sad that a large number of people misrepresent their military and martial arts background.  Is Mr. Smith one of them?  I honestly can't say.  The "fraud busting" policy of the forum suggests we drop it.

Operator06, however, and anybody else interested in training with Mr. Smith have a right to enquire as to his background.  Skeptics, within the policy's parameters, have a right (as I read it) to express reservations provided they don't become inquisitors.  Nobody has become an inquisitor.

And no.  We DON'T question every person's credentials.

Regards,

Steve


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## RRouuselot (Nov 20, 2004)

Here is you first clue to that this guy is BULL........



> 10th Degree Black Belt Shao-Choy-Hung Kung Fu
> 10th Degree Black Belt Shao-Choy-Hung Chuan Fa "Chinese Kenpo"
> 10th Degree Black Belt Shao-Choy-Hung Chin Na
> 8th Degree Black Belt Jujitsu
> ...




Too many high dan ranks.........


He does have a 10th degree gut though!!!

Ever notice how must of the 10th degree "grandmasters" seem to have huge guts....Must be a prerequisite or something..You can always tell the people that actually train hard just by looking at there physiquethis guy would have had to train pretty hard to get all those ranks.


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## clfsean (Nov 20, 2004)

Ok it's simple enough then... 

1) Who was his Hung Ga teacher? Name, length of time studied.
2) Who was his Choy Lee Fut teacher? Name, length of time studed.
3) Why did he feel it necessary to try to mix Hung Ga & CLF when it's not necessary since both are pretty complete?
4) Why did he feel it necessary to "break out" qin na into it's own "ranking"  group?
5) Why does he feel it necessary to take Chinese arts & qunatify them with Japanese based rank & American ego??

Don't even get me started on the other stuff...


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## KENPOJOE (Nov 20, 2004)

Operator06 said:
			
		

> This is from a post I placed in the Chinese Martial Arts forum, the gentleman also claims to hold rank in Chinese Kenpo so I figured I post it here too...
> 
> 
> _I ran across this guy's website fishing around on the net. __http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/robertsmith/_
> ...



Hi Folks,
I've been made aware of this thread and finally got around to writing about Sijo Bob "Dragon" Smith. I've know Sijo Smith for over 17 years and I'll let you know some info about "dragon" as he likes to be called...
His Kung Fu training was under a Wing Pong Sung in Boston's Chinatown in the 1960's. His sifu instructed Shaolin,Hung Gar, Choy Lee Fut and Kenpo techniques [no forms were taught in the kenpo portion]at his location there. When students asked about "rank", he simply taught the skills he knew and after Mr. Smith had trained with Sifu he was told that in regards to "rank", he would have placed him at the level of a brown belt because it was considered a level before black belt [or instructor level]. Sifu Sung returned to China and Mr. Smith was without an instructor. Because of the relationship to Japanese oriented rank, he felt he needed to get a "black Belt" to be formally recognized and performed all the chinese martial arts material before a group of local martial arts instructors to be "recognized" as an instructor, as is the case with many "Martial Arts orphans". He contacted Robert Hoe of Kosho Ryu and had him recognize him as a Black Belt in Kenpo. Over the years, he would re-organize the various chinese arts he had learned and formated the 5 animal actions he had learned into a 5 animal master form with 10 to 12 techniques for each individual animal as well as catalog all the various chin na techniques he had learned from his sifu and organize them, as well as create new techniques based on his own ideas and meeting with various martial artists over the years. He would call his new creation "Shao Choy Hung Kung Fu" and, as the founder of this unique hybrid, he was Sijo [founder] of that art and the sub-systems under it. [for those people who did not grasp the concept of founder, he equated it with the japanese ranking system for uneducated individuals to understand the concept and time in grade involved in his study of the arts. Other organizations would later recognize his efforts and award him roughly equivalent rank in the divisions where his art could be acknowledged [chin na=jujutsu] and he could acknowledged as the founder of his own unique art. any rank that is preceded by "Shao Choy Hung" is his unique outlook on that particular art and is not subject to ranking from other arts per se. I have studied under Sijo Smith, attended seminars that he has taught, sat on testing boards for his students and recently, have filmed every class or seminar that he offered to offer a future video on his art. 
He has endured several medical conditions that unfortunately have now confined him to a wheelchair and unfortunately he is staying at a veteran's care facility. Because of that, he has asked that the website be taken down because he "can no longer teach and feels he has nothing to teach anyone anymore" yet, I have seen this man always enlighten various martial artists with his natural ability to elevate a given technique or enhance a particular performer, as well as technique a plethora or techniques. It has been my honor to know Sijo Smith and a pleasure to work with him over the years. But in his present physical condition, He is far more concerned with whether he will ever walk again to worrying about internet mud slinging.
Thank you for your time,
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE (Nov 20, 2004)

Operator06 said:
			
		

> _He claims to have taught SEAL Teams H2H in 1968. HOw true is this and does anyone know if indeed he was a SEAL Team Operator?_
> 
> 
> Quote:
> The Dragon was a Navy Seal and assistant martial arts instructor for the Navy Seals in 1968



Sijo Smith was in the seals and when it was found out that he was proficient in the martial arts, the H2H instructor asked Sijo Smith to assist in the instruction of the recuits in the program. no big lofty title involved. he was asked to do so because he exhibited a skill in the arts that apparently the other recuits did not, or perhaps the instructor saw promise in Mr. smith at that time, I don't personally know.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE (Nov 20, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Simple enough to check on his background with the SEALS, I suppose.  If he's a fraud, they'll find out.
> 
> He says he designed one of the weapons on the page...all he did was add another hook to a Chinese hook sword.
> 
> ...



Dear Steve,
The "Windstorms" are far more than a simple variation on a "Fu tou ou" or "Tiger head hook" sword, it is a combination weapon, similar to the double hooks, but also encompasses aspects of the "emporer lance" because of the crown like top appendage that can stab [as opposed to the tiger hook] and block with the twin tops of the hooks, as well as reverse hook/connect the two blades] (like gerald okamura's reverse san soo hook swords] as well as a guard spike at the top of rear guard for close range grappling stabbing actions. I have a set of these myself and i find some of the unique weapon quite facinating.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## ppko (Nov 20, 2004)

KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> Hi Folks,
> I've been made aware of this thread and finally got around to writing about Sijo Bob "Dragon" Smith. I've know Sijo Smith for over 17 years and I'll let you know some info about "dragon" as he likes to be called...
> His Kung Fu training was under a Wing Pong Sung in Boston's Chinatown in the 1960's. His sifu instructed Shaolin,Hung Gar, Choy Lee Fut and Kenpo techniques [no forms were taught in the kenpo portion]at his location there. When students asked about "rank", he simply taught the skills he knew and after Mr. Smith had trained with Sifu he was told that in regards to "rank", he would have placed him at the level of a brown belt because it was considered a level before black belt [or instructor level]. Sifu Sung returned to China and Mr. Smith was without an instructor. Because of the relationship to Japanese oriented rank, he felt he needed to get a "black Belt" to be formally recognized and performed all the chinese martial arts material before a group of local martial arts instructors to be "recognized" as an instructor, as is the case with many "Martial Arts orphans". He contacted Robert Hoe of Kosho Ryu and had him recognize him as a Black Belt in Kenpo. Over the years, he would re-organize the various chinese arts he had learned and formated the 5 animal actions he had learned into a 5 animal master form with 10 to 12 techniques for each individual animal as well as catalog all the various chin na techniques he had learned from his sifu and organize them, as well as create new techniques based on his own ideas and meeting with various martial artists over the years. He would call his new creation "Shao Choy Hung Kung Fu" and, as the founder of this unique hybrid, he was Sijo [founder] of that art and the sub-systems under it. [for those people who did not grasp the concept of founder, he equated it with the japanese ranking system for uneducated individuals to understand the concept and time in grade involved in his study of the arts. Other organizations would later recognize his efforts and award him roughly equivalent rank in the divisions where his art could be acknowledged [chin na=jujutsu] and he could acknowledged as the founder of his own unique art. any rank that is preceded by "Shao Choy Hung" is his unique outlook on that particular art and is not subject to ranking from other arts per se. I have studied under Sijo Smith, attended seminars that he has taught, sat on testing boards for his students and recently, have filmed every class or seminar that he offered to offer a future video on his art.
> He has endured several medical conditions that unfortunately have now confined him to a wheelchair and unfortunately he is staying at a veteran's care facility. Because of that, he has asked that the website be taken down because he "can no longer teach and feels he has nothing to teach anyone anymore" yet, I have seen this man always enlighten various martial artists with his natural ability to elevate a given technique or enhance a particular performer, as well as technique a plethora or techniques. It has been my honor to know Sijo Smith and a pleasure to work with him over the years. But in his present physical condition, He is far more concerned with whether he will ever walk again to worrying about internet mud slinging.
> ...


I do not know anything about your instructor but I wish him well I am sorry to here about his condition, I do hope that he can one day teach again.


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## KENPOJOE (Nov 20, 2004)

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> _*I ran across this guy's website fishing around on the net*_
> 
> _If I caught this while fishing, i'd throw it back._
> _No!, seriously far to much diversfied rank to be genuine (imo)._
> ...



Dear "tiga"
The name "dragon" was a name that chinese martial artist who saw Sijo Smith perform in his early career used for him. the person said that "you move like a dragon" [as opposed to "dragging along" LOL!] and it was a simple _"nom de guerre"_ he used, nothing more..no more uncommon that "Mafia" halloway or "Spiderman" peters or "super dan" anderson in tournament circles.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE (Nov 20, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Anybody with that many ultra high ranks is bogus. There is not enough time on God's green earth to be legit with that resume! They most likely are "bought", "crossed over" or the very prevalent.... "good ole boy" promotion routine.
> 
> No doubt the man has "some" sort of ability or experience but more of a "jack of all trades master of none" {except with *official certification*, of course ..... lol}.
> 
> Funny to visit these guys sites  however, lets you know where NOT to study!



Dear Dennis,
As i've explained in a previous post in response regarding ranks and levels,If a person creates something that is uniquely theirs, they are the founder of that given art. Sijo Smith has always been willing to instruct and perform his art over the years. It never ceases to amaze me how some people cannot grasp the concept of training in different arts at different studios at the same time or training with one given instructor in differents arts at the same studio. None of Sijo's ranks from were "bought", rather given to him in recognition of his career and accomplishments [you could read into that as a "good ol' boy" type of thing, but all organizations do that] 
as far as the "let's you know where not to study" comment  :2xBird2: 
just telling Dennis he's number one!...twice! ROFLMAO!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE (Nov 20, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> It must be a coincidence that the "masters" that vouch for their legitmacy usually have 10-20 high ranks of their own.     Whole lot of back slapping going on.


Gee John,
Sorry if you find my resume "doubtful" but I'm always "more than happy" to demonstrate my skills in the various arts that I have rank in! I've performed in tournament competitions,seminars,demonstrations,classes, videos, etc...so that people do know I walk the walk and talk the talk...now if I can do that and chew gum at the same time that I'm really got it together!! LOL!!!!
Seriously, I wish people would figure out that some arts simply do not have the detailed curriculum that others do. Therefore it is far easier to learn certain arts in a relatively short amunt of time. If a given art is in many ways similar to the previous arts you've studied, then that makes it easier as well...
I hope that I was of some service,
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## John Bishop (Nov 21, 2004)

KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> Gee John,
> Sorry if you find my resume "doubtful" but I'm always "more than happy" to demonstrate my skills in the various arts that I have rank in! I've performed in tournament competitions,seminars,demonstrations,classes, videos, etc...so that people do know I walk the walk and talk the talk...now if I can do that and chew gum at the same time that I'm really got it together!! LOL!!!!
> Seriously, I wish people would figure out that some arts simply do not have the detailed curriculum that others do. Therefore it is far easier to learn certain arts in a relatively short amunt of time. If a given art is in many ways similar to the previous arts you've studied, then that makes it easier as well...
> I hope that I was of some service,
> ...


Actually Joe, I've never read your resume.  So I have no clue as to what ranks you may have.  I presume you do have a Kenpo rank, since you call yourself KenpoJoe.
I was speaking in generalities about the several resumes that I have read of people claiming 10-20 high black belt ranks.  And how they usually vouch for the ones they received rank from, or the ones that they have given rank to.  
Surprising how some people receive high ranks from instructors hundreds, or even thousands of miles away, that they never even stepped on a mat with.  

But since someone asked about Mr. Smith, I am curious about his claims.  You wrote that he only trained up to brown belt equilivent with his instructor?  And then thru his own self training, he became a 10th degree?  Actually, several 10th degrees?  Can you elaberate more on this process?


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## RRouuselot (Nov 21, 2004)

KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> Gee John,
> Sorry if you find my resume "doubtful" but I'm always "more than happy" to demonstrate my skills in the various arts that I have rank in! I've performed in tournament competitions,seminars,demonstrations,classes, videos, etc...so that people do know I walk the walk and talk the talk...



Do you have any mpegs on line that we can see?


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## RRouuselot (Nov 21, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> But since someone asked about Mr. Smith, I am curious about his claims.  You wrote that he only trained up to brown belt equilivent with his instructor?  And then thru his own self training, he became a 10th degree?  Actually, several 10th degrees?  Can you elaberate more on this process?


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## RRouuselot (Nov 21, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> But since someone asked about Mr. Smith, I am curious about his claims.  You wrote that he only trained up to brown belt equilivent with his instructor?  And then thru his own self training, he became a 10th degree?  *Actually, several 10th degrees?  Can you elaberate more on this process?*




$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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## KENPOJOE (Nov 21, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Actually Joe, I've never read your resume.  So I have no clue as to what ranks you may have.  I presume you do have a Kenpo rank, since you call yourself KenpoJoe.
> I was speaking in generalities about the several resumes that I have read of people claiming 10-20 high black belt ranks.  And how they usually vouch for the ones they received rank from, or the ones that they have given rank to.
> Surprising how some people receive high ranks from instructors hundreds, or even thousands of miles away, that they never even stepped on a mat with.
> 
> But since someone asked about Mr. Smith, I am curious about his claims.  You wrote that he only trained up to brown belt equilivent with his instructor?  And then thru his own self training, he became a 10th degree?  Actually, several 10th degrees?  Can you elaberate more on this process?


Hi John,
gee, i was surprised that you've never been to my website, where my list of ranks are listed? Gosh, I've looked at your website over the years!  
Thankfully, all my ranks were awarded to me by people who i've actually trained with,studied under and performed in front of personally. What I wrote in the earlier post was that Sifu Sung had no ranking system per se to allocate rank to Mr. Smith so he stated to him he was equivalent to a brown belt for lack of a better term. It was Mr. Smith himself who took that description to heart and had various martial artists gathered together to see his material so they would recognize him as a "black Belt". Years later, he would elaborate upon his own creation and list himself as "founder" of the Shao Choy Hung system as it's own entity. The process is mentioned in earlier posts.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## KenpoDave (Nov 21, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> You wrote that he only trained up to brown belt equilivent with his instructor?  And then thru his own self training, he became a 10th degree?  Actually, several 10th degrees?  Can you elaberate more on this process?



Being that this is the kenpo board, it is a rather interesting question.

John, you question the very legitimacy of James Mitose.  He promoted Thomas Young who in turn promoted Chow to black belt.  Chow in turn promoted Emperado.  Emperado is now a 10th degree black belt and you are a 7th in his style.  So, how did Emperado get to be a 10th when he was only taught to black belt?  Or Parker for that matter.  He was also a 10th, but whether or not he even got a black belt from Chow is a matter of controversy.

Personally, I think the process is very similar for everyone who claims to be a 10th degree black belt.  Basically, they put it on, and people either accept it or they don't.  And typically the first guy sets the standard for his system at that point.  You are a 7th because a standard for achieving that rank has been set, and you have achieved that standard.


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## John Bishop (Nov 21, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Being that this is the kenpo board, it is a rather interesting question.
> 
> John, you question the very legitimacy of James Mitose. He promoted Thomas Young who in turn promoted Chow to black belt. Chow in turn promoted Emperado. Emperado is now a 10th degree black belt and you are a 7th in his style. So, how did Emperado get to be a 10th when he was only taught to black belt? Or Parker for that matter. He was also a 10th, but whether or not he even got a black belt from Chow is a matter of controversy.
> 
> Personally, I think the process is very similar for everyone who claims to be a 10th degree black belt. Basically, they put it on, and people either accept it or they don't. And typically the first guy sets the standard for his system at that point. You are a 7th because a standard for achieving that rank has been set, and you have achieved that standard.


 

Fair question, since many people have promoted themselves to 10th degree after founding their own system or subsystem.  

And yes, myself and many others doubt the accuracy of James Mitose&#8217;s claims about his training and grandmaster lineage.  But it&#8217;s very possible that we may never find out all the truth about Mitose&#8217;s martial arts background.

And if his legitimacy is in doubt, then technically one could say the legitimacy of his promotions is in doubt.  But after this many years, the subject is probably moot.  

And as I&#8217;ve said in the past, &#8220;if it wasn&#8217;t for men like William Chow, Adriano Emperado, Ed Parker, and Al Tracy, no one would know who James Mitose was, or care&#8221;.   Because of the hard work and efforts of these men, the Hawaiian derived kenpo systems now have a worldwide following.

Three of these men claim a rank of 10th degree, and William Chow claimed a rank of 15th degree.  Since three of these men have their own followers who can better speak of their ranks, I will only talk of Sijo Emperado&#8217;s.  

Sijo Emperado was ranked up to 5th degree by William Chow, and received a &#8220;instructors certificate&#8221; from James Mitose.  Decades later he was awarded a 10th degree rank from the &#8220;Chinese Physical Culture Association of Hawaii&#8221;.  This organization,which is still in existance, was the first Chinese martial arts association outside of China.  And there are still many members who were witness to Sijo Emperado&#8217;s promotion.      

 As to Ed Parker&#8217;s black belt promotion, I see no contraversy, only rumors.  Sijo Emperado was William Chow&#8217;s highest ranking black belt at the time of Ed Parker&#8217;s promotion.  He says that Chow asked him to read to him a letter that he had received from Ed Parker.  The letter requested a black belt promotion from Chow because Parker had started teaching his own students on the mainland.  Sijo say&#8217;s that Chow did in fact promote Parker to black belt at that time.  Now you can doubt his word, but Sijo has absolutely nothing to gain from saying William Chow did, or did not promote Ed Parker to first degree. 

As to the so called &#8220;Black Belt Certificate&#8221; that has been posted on the internet after Mr. Parker&#8217;s passing.  I showed a copy of it to Sijo last Saturday.  He said that he did not feel it was legitimate.

The two reasons he cited were:


The signature didn&#8217;t look like Chow&#8217;s
Chow didn&#8217;t give black belt certificates at that time.
He said that the only one from that era that had a black belt certificate from William Chow was him.  And that was only because it was the highest rank Chow had given at the time, &#8220;5th degree Chief Instructor&#8221;.  

Al Tracy has said that &#8220;he never saw any certificates at Mr. Parker&#8217;s school&#8221;.  That dosen&#8217;t mean that Mr. Parker wasn&#8217;t a Chow black belt, because none of William Chow&#8217;s 1st degree black belts from that era had certificates.


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## Karazenpo (Nov 21, 2004)

I tried to stay out of this one because these things become too controversal, too heated, too much mud and everyone ends up getting beat on. I also totally understand why many view things in the arts today with skeptism, just look how many times we've been bullsh_tted over the years! Having said that I first would like to say that I have debated Shaun (Kenpo5th) on this forum and found him to honest, intelligent, fair minded and a gentlemen. However, we (my wife Kathy & I) also had the pleasure of spending some time with Shaun last month over a two day period when Sijo Gascon made a trip to Massachusetts and Rhode Island and this only confirmed my forum impression of him but let me add, he also has a helluva sense of humor. As a matter of fact, Shaun only lives about 30 minutes from me so I can confirm that he is a highly respected martial arts instructor in the area. I haven't seen Sijo Smith just like I haven't seen others but at this point, if he says he's the real deal I will take his word on it. Now, KenpoJoe Rebelo, unlike Shaun, I didn't initally meet Joe on the forum but in person at a Master Bill Chun Jr. seminar at my instructor's school, Hanshi Craig Seavey, co-head of Nick Cerio's Kenpo. I've been in his company several times since. I found Joe to be very personable and always ready to help a brother or sister martial artist. We sometimes debate and once in a while may not agree on something which is perfectly normal and my wife Kathy and I like Joe. We also spent some time with him last month. KenpoJoe is way too knowledgable to be fooled by someone who is not what they are cracked up to be. Hey, that's just my honest opinion. So, again, if Joe says he's the real deal until I see otherwise, I will take Joe's word on it.
  Now, this thing about rank and 10th degrees, legitimate grandmasters, founders and so forth.........Here's what I've learned in over three decades. As most of you know, I originally got my start along with many, many others with Gm. Fred Villari in those early years when things weren't so commercialized. Actually, it was now Hanshi Seavey of NCK who brought me to black belt and sponsered me for my test. (see the Who is Fred Villari post for any questions) Way back then, Fred was taking all kinds of heat for his 10th degree ranking, although like many others since, he justified it by being the undisputed 'head honcho' of his own thing, which back then was: Fred Villari's United Studios of Self Defense teaching his perspective of what was called then 'Chinese Kenpo Karate' and for a certain period called 'Sho Tung Kwok' (which is also the name of the form which represents the nucleus of his system, see Black Belt magazine, May '75). The Villari critics in the martial arts world were everywhere, jumping on this one! As time went on and I got more and more into the history and had the chance to meet more and more knowledgable people, I started going down the Hawiian-derived Kenpo/Kempo lineage trees of systems, branches and subsystems and their true backgrounds. I began to get a different picture of things. I found that Mr. Villari's problem was that he sh_t in his own backyard. He trained in Rhode Island, lived in Massachusetts and set up his initial schools in New England. Very easy to trace his training to the late Professor Nick Cerio of Wawrick, R.I. I found that the most vehement Villari critics' past training and rankings also came under some serious scrutiny when given a close look. I'm not saying they weren't excellent martial artists in their own right, they were and I respected their abilities and contributions, but they certainly misrepresentated themselves as far as their training and ranking went, only difference was they either lived thousands of miles away or they claimed certain high ranks and training from many thousands of miles away including Hawaii, Okinawa, Japan,  Korea and California. So now, I just  keep out of this legitimate rank thing. Unlike many Mitose detractors, it doesn't bother me whether he was awarded a black belt or not, it doesn't bother me whether our roots are from Japan or Okinawa as is controversial of late and it's fine with me if he was actually the 1st descendant of Kosho ryu rather than the 21st because simply he is the one who started this whole 'kenpo thing'. My only beef is not having the truth told to us about it no matter what it is. Sorry for the long winded post but I felt I had to contribute to this debate. I wish Sijo Smith a complete and speedy recovery.  Thanks. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

PS: I physically train hard, and although I keep my weight down, let me say this about that. Several years ago I was watching the 'tough man' boxing bouts that had been sponsered by Vince McMahon (nothing choreographed, this was for real) There were some tough, 'ripped' and talented fighters along with the usual 'bums' too. Well, I saw this guy, 'Butterbean', he had to be at least 350 lbs and believe me, it wasn't all muscle, either, lol. He fought a guy, I think his name was Bart Gunn who had previously been knocking guys out left and right. excellent fighter, cut and ripped, strong as hell. Well, unfortunately for me, lol, I bet on Gunn beating Butterbean. Needlessly to say it was all over in less than a minute, Butterbean by knockout. So, I don't judge anyone's abilities on looks alone.


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## Karazenpo (Nov 21, 2004)

Let us not forget this one either which confirms what Robert had stated in reference to Gichen Funakoshi:


"Of course, the Butoku-kai continued to sanction head teachers directly. This was not without controversy, however, since Konishi sat on the board that awarded Funakoshi his renshi and Konishi had been Funakoshi's student. Of course, Konishi had inside ties to the Butoku-kai by virtue of birth, something the Okinawan Funakoshi could not have."

 I say: I believe from what I read that the Butoku-kai was originally a judo/jiu jitsu/aikido & kendo kai (original Japanese martial arts) and as Robert had pointed out, Konishi was ranked in kendo/kenjutsu or some related sword art. In the early years, we, in Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo, were berated by Shotokan stylists that theirs was a 'traditional, true and pure' art not a 'bastardized system like ours and so forth, then as we all become more knowledgable, low and behold, we find Shotokan is an altered hybrid or eclectic blending of Shorin ryu and Shorei ryu. Hello? Then they go and attack our higher ranks and what happens? On closer look we find Funakoshi gets a 5th/renshi from a judo/kendo kai where his student sits on the ranking board, holding rank in a sword art! Gimme a break, lol. I realize that since the Butoku-kai has expanded to take in a broader range of martial arts, but still......


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## Thunderbolt (Nov 21, 2004)

i don't understand why certain people want to have more than 10 degree BB.???

i also certainly don't understand why they call it their own art since they *found* something in art when they actually are teaching a chinese art.?


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## Operator06 (Nov 21, 2004)

What a conversation this turned out to be. Thank you KenpoJoe for your posts on Mr. Smith.




> Sijo Smith was in the seals and when it was found out that he was proficient in the martial arts, the H2H instructor asked Sijo Smith to assist in the instruction of the recuits in the program. no big lofty title involved. he was asked to do so because he exhibited a skill in the arts that apparently the other recuits did not, or perhaps the instructor saw promise in Mr. smith at that time, I don't personally know.
> I hope that I was of some service,


 
What I'd like to know is what BUD's Class Mr. Smith was in. I am a recent Navy Veteran and have a few shipmates that went to try out for BUD's. One thing they say is that you never forget it! I was wondering if you could shed some light as to what BUD's class he was in. One thing I can't stand is someone who is not who they say they are, being a Navy man SEAL Imposters are one of the things that gets stuck in my craw. Please don't get me wrong, it's just that there are too many imposters out there, and SEALs work too hard for what they have.


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## Karazenpo (Nov 21, 2004)

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> i don't understand why certain people want to have more than 10 degree BB.???
> 
> i also certainly don't understand why they call it their own art since they *found* something in art when they actually are teaching a chinese art.?



Yeah, but you know Thunderbolt, you wonder how much of it is just a marketing ploy and I don't mean this disrepectfully to anyone. I mean for advertising purposes. You could have a high overhead and have to pay the bills. It's like beefing up a resume for a job, know what I mean? A lot of Americans are still into the more is better syndrome and they see that in the Yellow Pages or on the web and they're impressed so they call or visit. Of course, the other reason is ego or it can be a combination of both. Who knows unless you know the individual doing it. As far as the 'founder' thing, I try to stay away from that controversal issue also. Too many founders these days, all that is being done now is 're-inventing the wheel'. How many different ways can one put something together anymore in order to teach someone how to kick butt? I personally feel many do it because of ego and they just won't except being second banana to someone else, others just want that 'once' highly coveted 10th dan. In the words of Gm. S. George Pesare: "Everyone's a sijo these days"

PS: One other point, if these 10th dan certificates are just as 'recognized' as anyone elses 10th dan certificates then no one has much of an argument. What can you say? Let's face it, you have more crediability being a lesser rank today, people and fellow martial artists are more likely to believe it. When people hear 10th dan they usually think, yeah, right!, lol.


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## Karazenpo (Nov 21, 2004)

Operator06 said:
			
		

> What a conversation this turned out to be. Thank you KenpoJoe for your posts on Mr. Smith.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Operator06, I hear ya. We had a guy in our town who was going around saying he was a Navy Seal, still does. An ex-Marine I work with had some knowledge of where they train and so forth through a Navy friend of his. He questioned him. The guy was a phony. He also tried to pass himself off as a kickboxing champ, I made a point to question him on that one-same results. A couple of years ago, we had a Marine Sgt. Vietnam war hero, featured in the papers, ran Toys for Tots at Christmas with the local police, had medals up the ying yang. Our Daily News did a feature on him and had him going down in a helicopter crash, saving the pilot, holding his guts in dragging him through the jungle. His wife attested to him waking up in cold sweats at night screaming. One day the local papers featured him on the front page with his medals. A couple Vietnam vets called the papers saying he couldn't possibly have that medal at a Sgt.'s rank. He was investigated. Are you ready for this one. He was discharged from the Marine's as a Corporal, late 50's I think. Never saw action, never left the states. The only place he saw action was Louisiana State Penitentiary on burglary convictions, lol.


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## Operator06 (Nov 21, 2004)

That's what I mean, those guys (SEALs) work way too hard to have someone just "claim" to be a SEAL.


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## KempoShaun (Nov 21, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> However, we (my wife Kathy & I) also had the pleasure of spending some time with Shaun last month over a two day period when Sijo Gascon made a trip to Massachusetts and Rhode Island and this only confirmed my forum impression of him but let me add, he also has a helluva sense of humor.



Cheers "Joe!"  yes, we did have a good time with Sijo Gascon, didn't we?  LOL, I hope I get some of that Whiskey next time he comes up!  As for your comments about me, much appreciated and reciprocated my friend.  I'd clap in response to your post, but it might not be my turn  :wink2:  As far as people doubting KenpoJoe...  Man, I ain't even going there.  Ok, maybe I will.  I'm lucky enough to train with Joe on a weekly basis, and trust me, everyone of his "High Ranks in Several Arts" is well earned.  We'll be working on my Shaolin Kempo and he'll show me how the technique would be applied in 15 other arts.  Mind-boggling, truly mind-boggling.  One of those arts by the way, is Sijo Smith's Shao Choy Hung  :boing2:

Namaste


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## Karazenpo (Nov 21, 2004)

The whiskey, Shaun, the whiskey, hope to join you! Cheers to you too 'Brother'! It's a good thing Kathy didn't have any that night, she would have really been clapping, LOL.  Take care & Be safe...........and Have a great Thanksgiving, Joe & Kathy


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## RRouuselot (Nov 21, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> 1)	I say: I believe from what I read that the Butoku-kai was originally a judo/jiu jitsu/aikido & kendo kai (original Japanese martial arts) and as Robert had pointed out, Konishi was ranked in kendo/kenjutsu or some related sword art.
> 2)	In the early years, we, in Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo, were berated by Shotokan stylists that theirs was a 'traditional, true and pure' art not a 'bastardized system like ours and so forth, then as we all become more knowledgable, low and behold, we find Shotokan is an altered hybrid or eclectic blending of Shorin ryu and Shorei ryu. Hello? Then they go and attack our higher ranks and what happens? On closer look we find Funakoshi gets a 5th/renshi from a judo/kendo kai where his student sits on the ranking board, holding rank in a sword art! Gimme a break, lol. I realize that since the Butoku-kai has expanded to take in a broader range of martial arts, but still......




1)	Yes the Butokukai was the original Good ol boyz club for right wing Japanese and basically wanted to control everything in the Japanese MA world. After WWII it was abolished by the GHQ on the grounds it was too ultra right wing, and since then has never been much of anything except an over glorified dan factory. 
2)	Dont feel bad.in Japan Shotokan berates every style that doesnt belong to them.


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## RRouuselot (Nov 21, 2004)

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> i don't understand why certain people want to have more than 10 degree BB.???




I think in psychological terms the call it over compensating  :ultracool


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## RRouuselot (Nov 21, 2004)

Operator06 said:
			
		

> What a conversation this turned out to be. Thank you KenpoJoe for your posts on Mr. Smith.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




There is a website run by some former SEALs. I use it a couple of years back when some bozo was claiming to be a SEAL on one of these boards..the guy turned out to be a fake. 
Anyway, to find out what someone did in the Military all you need is a copy of their DD-214, right?


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 22, 2004)

Operator06 said:
			
		

> What I'd like to know is what BUD's Class Mr. Smith was in. I am a recent Navy Veteran and have a few shipmates that went to try out for BUD's. One thing they say is that you never forget it! I was wondering if you could shed some light as to what BUD's class he was in. One thing I can't stand is someone who is not who they say they are, being a Navy man SEAL Imposters are one of the things that gets stuck in my craw. Please don't get me wrong, it's just that there are too many imposters out there, and SEALs work too hard for what they have.




This is my concern as well.  I could really care less about the multiple dan rankings.  I know some credible martial artists out there who have them.  

Further information will go a long way towards dispelling any doubts as to Sijo Smith's credibility.  He'll know off the top of his head what his graduating class was.  It would settle this issue quickly.  Once his SEAL status is verified with the SEAL Authentication Team, I for one will be the first to defend him.

One needs to understand that there are a huge number of people out there claiming they were SEALS/Special Forces/Rangers (fill in the blank) who never served with these units.  Some were people who served in the armed forces but never with an elite unit.  I've run into an uncomfortably large number of them.  Interestingly, they also often claim to have a high degree of martial arts skill and claim very high rank.  Given this, you can see why some people are quick to question.

I'm sure Sijo Smith is aware of this problem and would likely understand why skepticism so often rears its ugly head.  If you give me his full, legal
name, including his middle name, or at least his middle initial and his claimed SEAL training class number, I will personally clear him of any suspicion concerning his military record.

Regards,


Steve


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## James Kovacich (Nov 22, 2004)

KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> "Martial Arts orphans".
> KENPOJOE


 I know that feeling. I've heard it and been accused of all the caca that goes with it. Dosen't matter. Someone "higher" than the accusers "recognizes" my abilities and also "head" of my own system. If I ever get promoted it will be by Hanshi. 

My old Kajukenbo instructor from the '70's recently contacted me and wanted to "recognize" me and re-align myself with him. This was a few weeks before the Visalia gathering. Blew me away because he was one on the greatest influences of my "growing up" years. But the reasoning for the mention is because all I want is for my instructors to recognize "my system." Not rank in theirs, at least until I put the time in. 

Sifu Felix's teachings are at the "core of my system" and he recognizes me, my students and that I'm teaching my own system. With help from others downline from a similar lineage I've added to the stand up of my art in a way that any technique can be used in conjunction with any technique at any time ( I can just some of the dis-beleivers now). 

My whole point is if it's good enough for "those who are qualified" to make the judgment. Then why would the non-qualified make the judgment?


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## getgoin (Nov 24, 2004)

I know of Kenpojoe (Joe Rebelo) through way of my old instructor (Ralph Andersen of TAI Kenpo). I never meet him but I have heard many conversations about him. They always said he was a walking history book of kenpo, so I imagine he would know who and who not to get mixed up with. I know enough about Kenpojoe to say if its good enough for him it would be good enough for me.


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## kenpo3631 (Nov 24, 2004)

Operator06,
I feel your pain. I too am a veteran, Army though.. :apv:  I hate when people claim to be things they aren't.

I have met Mr. Smith once, I did not speak much to him but from what I did he is a very personable man and at the time was eager to share whatever knowledge he had. He even invited me to partake in some classes he was conducting at a local training hall. I had to turn his offer down do to pressing commitments (Paramedic school) so I have never seen the man move. I also did not know that he claimed to be a SEAL. Hmmmm, I saw that KenpoJoe explained a little bit of the Mr. Smith's background, I wonder if he could provide us with a BUD's Class number or date?


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## KempoShaun (Nov 24, 2004)

kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> I wonder if he could provide us with a BUD's Class number or date?


Probably not, Sijo Smith, as stated before, is in a wheelchair, and also in a veteran's nursing home at the moment.  From what I understand, KenpoJoe doesn't get to see or speak to him too often at this period in time, perhaps that will change.  C'mon people, lets have a little faith for once  :wink2:


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## kenpo3631 (Nov 25, 2004)

> Probably not, Sijo Smith, as stated before, is in a wheelchair, and also in a veteran's nursing home at the moment



Hmmm, not to long ago I saw him at the Good Samaritan Medical Center in Brockton, MA. I was bringing out a patient and he was wheeling across the parking lot in his wheel chair. I don't know if you're familiar with the area but that hospital is about 3-5 miles away from the VA Medical Center. So as to him being confined to a VA Hospital might not be so true. If I see him again though I'll have to ask him about his days as a SEAL. :asian:


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## kungfulee (Feb 13, 2006)

Operator06 said:
			
		

> This is from a post I placed in the Chinese Martial Arts forum, the gentleman also claims to hold rank in Chinese Kenpo so I figured I post it here too...
> 
> 
> _I ran across this guy's website fishing around on the net. __http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/robertsmith/_
> ...



This guy has a lot of ranks.


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## LawDog (Feb 13, 2006)

Robert Smith,
He is from the New England area. Most of his ranks were acquired through an organization called Nindo-Ryu. Carlos Fabres is the founder of this organization. Look up Nindo-Ryu, they are out of Puerto Rico. From my understanding Mr Smith is very ill right now. I believe that he is now confind to a wheel chair.


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## Kenpoist (Feb 15, 2006)

No matter what the truth may be - I don't wish anyone to have to suffer from illness and be confined in a wheelchair.  I hope he has a full recovery.

As far as legitamacy in rank - I am a skeptic of mulitple high ranking teachers who have bounced around from style to style.  They may have truley mastered one or two styles, but in all likelyhood have been given equivilant ranks from other organizations for PR purposes or to bolster the image of a certain dojo.
Many of us have dabbled in different martial arts systems over the years ( I know I have), but you would have to be 105 years old to have 10th degree belts in 4 or 5 systems (if you earned them all based on time in training and support from your peers).

I will throw his name around with former SEALS I have come to know over the years and see what I can dig up - for sake of arguement.


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## LawDog (Feb 15, 2006)

A friend sent me these links, I hope that they help you.

Nindo Ryu

Photo of Robert Smith and Carlos Fabres.

:supcool:


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## still learning (Feb 16, 2006)

Hello, When you own your own business ...you can call yourself anything you want too!

As the head of  his system/school..he can claim anything he wants to! ....there are NO RULES here....to be a 10th degree.

Look around at the ads in alot of the martial art magazines...and see all those who claims to be 10th degrees and some even 12th degree...

In our system the Professor set it up to 15th degree (still is 10th degree).

Again NO RULES ............sometimes things do look silly......

In fishing......am I a 10th degree.?..if I catch fish for over 40 years of fishing from shore (recreational).  This is my hobby!   Always catch something when I go fishing.....almost perfect here? .....Dumb thing here to say...............Aloha


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## KENPOJOE (Feb 22, 2006)

Meijin10 said:
			
		

> Robert Smith,
> He is from the New England area. Most of his ranks were acquired through an organization called Nindo-Ryu. Carlos Fabres is the founder of this organization. Look up Nindo-Ryu, they are out of Puerto Rico. From my understanding Mr Smith is very ill right now. I believe that he is now confind to a wheel chair.


Hi Folks!
I saw that someone had recently written something on this old thread [last posted 2004] and thought I'd update any interested parties in Sijo Smith's condition and expound upon a couple of inportant points.
Nindo Ryu did not promote Sijo Smith "per se". Rather, Febres Sensei watched sijo smith's classes on how he instructed his art, had Sijo Smith perform a demonstration and explanation of his art in detail,and over a prolonged overview of his efforts and his students skill level and accomplishments it was decided to recognize Sijo Smith for his efforts in the study of the Martial Arts. Since Nindo ryu does not have a chinese division, it was decided to "recognize" sijo smith for his martial arts career with a representative rank in a similar japanese-oriented rank through the Nindo Ryu organization. In regards to his chin na skills a corralative recognition was awarded in Jujutsu,and in the Kung Fu/Kenpo study a corralative rank was awarded in Atemti Do. He was also asked to join the "council of elders" as a chinese arts representative for the Nindo Ryu organization at that time. Any ranking listed with "Shao Choy Hung" are Sijo's unique creation based on his past Martial arts training and the creation of his own unique style.So, therefore he is the founder of those given disciplines and the overseer of those arts. 
However, Sijo Smith is in no state to do any of his arts anymore. He is in failing health,he has a heart defibulator installed and due to diabetic neroprosy is confined to a wheelchair. Ha has CHD [chronic heart disease] and CRD [Chronic respitory Disease] and has been in and out of hospitals since this thread had stopped. He can no longer perform the arts that he so loved for so many years. Recently, he was informed by one of his doctors that he has a limited time to live. His heart is only effectively working at approximately 19% use and it is dwindling. So, all I can do at this time is be a friend to one of my instructors and insure that his time left on this planet is as peaceful and comforting as can be expected. I understand how we can be judgemental towards different individuals and I too have done the same as others. But at point, a phrase by one of my instructors,SGM Ed Parker,comes to mind. Once, when asked on a TV show what degree of Black Belt Elvis was,He replied "What degree of death are you when you are dead?"
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## Doc (Feb 22, 2006)

Operator06 said:
			
		

> This is from a post I placed in the Chinese Martial Arts forum, the gentleman also claims to hold rank in Chinese Kenpo so I figured I post it here too...
> 
> 
> _I ran across this guy's website fishing around on the net. __http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/robertsmith/_
> ...


Seal Team members identities are secret. Ex Seals don't talk about it publicly or broadcast it on websites.


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## eyebeams (Feb 22, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Seal Team members identities are secret. Ex Seals don't talk about it publicly or broadcast it on websites.



*cough*http://www.veriseal.org/*cough*

Easily taken care of.


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## Doc (Feb 22, 2006)

Thank you.


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## Danjo (Feb 22, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Seal Team members identities are secret. Ex Seals don't talk about it publicly or broadcast it on websites.


 
I've known several. I grew up on a Navy base and I don't recall them being that secretive. The guy on the original Survivor TV Show Rudy was a SEAL. Richard Marcinco etc. There are many who tell who they are. It's not like the CIA.

If you're being sarcastic, then sorry.


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## Doc (Feb 22, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> I've known several. I grew up on a Navy base and I don't recall them being that secretive. The guy on the original Survivor TV Show Rudy was a SEAL. Richard Marcinco etc. There are many who tell who they are. It's not like the CIA.
> 
> If you're being sarcastic, then sorry.


No sorry necessary sir. Active duty seal info is 'protected' info for obvious reasons. If you grew up on a base, they would obviously view you differently. They don't however broadcasting their status, and of course ex seals who've seen significant combat don't talk about it to "outsiders." Seal team activities are indeed classified. But then, you know that.


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## Danjo (Feb 22, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> No sorry necessary sir. Active duty seal info is 'protected' info for obvious reasons. If you grew up on a base, they would obviously view you differently. They don't however broadcasting their status, and of course ex seals who've seen significant combat don't talk about it to "outsiders." Seal team activities are indeed classified. But then, you know that.


 
(Bows) Ah Soooo.


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## KenpoDave (Feb 23, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> No sorry necessary sir. Active duty seal info is 'protected' info for obvious reasons. If you grew up on a base, they would obviously view you differently. They don't however broadcasting their status, and of course ex seals who've seen significant combat don't talk about it to "outsiders." Seal team activities are indeed classified. But then, you know that.


 
"The names of ALL BUD/S graduates are cast in stone as each and every new class graduates. Remember: Operations may be classified, but SEAL personnel are NOT."


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## thetruth (Mar 1, 2006)

To refer back to his books he has written a number of them under his name and the pseudonym John F Gilbey including that martial arts of the world book
Cheers
Sam


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## Danjo (Mar 1, 2006)

Robrt W. Smith is not the same as Sijo Smith on this thread


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## misterv (Sep 27, 2006)

I was just made aware of this post yesterday.  So I figured that I would respond. I can not believe that people attack others like this. I know a handful of you guys on this forum so hello to you guys. Some of you have even taught at my FREE seminar that I hold once a year. 
I have trained with many people through the years. People have come down to train with me from Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, Conecticut, Rhode Island, Texas, Massachusetts and more. I also will be having a guy from Florida coming up shortly, and a no holds bar fighter out of Massachusetts in October. All come up for free to share their knowledge. They have no ulterior motive but to spread their knowledge with others. These people truly love the arts and are void of any ego.  Just as Sijo Robert "Dragon" Smith has done for me.  He trained me on Saturdays for about 3 years I believe.  He never asked for a penny from me. He saw someone with an open mind.  What more can you say about him. His heart is in the right place. As far as rank goes he has showed me his certificates. But again I can print them out myself. So lets drop the question of rank. The real question is can this man teach me something. I have been around many instructors, and very well known respected instrucctors as well.  This man has showed me more than they ever did.  He is very knowledgable and talented.  This man has also gained the respect of one of the better martial artists that I have ever met Douglas Betts. My friend Mr.Betts died living his dream. He was moving to Tenesse to build a martial arts training facility for people to sleep at and train.  When the tractor he was using to clear the land tipped over and crushed him with two of his closest friends watching. Even one of the people on this post recognized him as an 8th Dan for his contribution upon his death.  This meant alot to me personally. Again getting back to Dragon he could take techniques and make them better. When I do a presentation I show this technique that he showed me. He was also a great practitioner of nerve attacks both striking an rubbing. He also gave rank to another local high rank who was recognized for his founding Raven Kenpo. So also this man sat on my 3rd Degree Black belt test that went for 3 hours along with a 5 school panel for my 3rd degree promotion back in 2003. This man again asked me for nothing.  Yes he was not well known, but he was very talented. He taught local cops back in the day as well. Some of you guys rip him apart for his weight. Uncalled for as it gets back to them.  He unfortunately hit hard times and was wheel chair bound, lost his house, and had no home so he went through different homeless shelters. The last one is at at VA home in Boston.  I use to call him about every two weeks, but he lost his cell phone.  Rough times can hit anyone of us at anytime.  His talent can not be taken away from him, and his knowledge can not be taken away from him even in a wheelchair.  Again I wish the entire rank thing should be changed anyway.  I think the number of years as a practicing blackbelt should be the measure of someone along with the statement of school owner, instructor, or student. I am a 6 year black belt who has had their own school since 2001. I taught out of my home for 3 years, and my own commercial studio for about 2 years now. If anyone of you on this forum would love to visit and share knowledge I would love that.  Many have come from all over to do just this with me.  To me knowledge is power not rank. I am a sponge this is why people come to see me.  I am not the best martial artist around by far, but I am a great teacher keeping kids off of drugs, helping kids with grades, and so much more.  I was a great bench presser back in my day, and armwrestler too.  I am now 43 and in my 20's I weighed 198 pounds benching 475, and also winning the American Armwrestling Novice open classic on Evening Magazine TV.  The heavy lifting took it's toll on my joints though.  Anyway lets not take away from this man who gives freely his knowledge.  He has been nothing but kind to me and a few people on this site. Also as far as him being a navy seal he does not brag about it at all.  He put it on his webpage so people would know who he is and was.  He did not get rich off of it or teaching martial arts.  He suffered for his art giving to many around him. For this I salute him and all the other martial artists who are in it for all the right reasons.....  Again if you would like to share knowledge please come see me. I will be moving to a new location in Rehoboth MA on December 1st.  You are all invited to my grand reopening. Perhaps dinner afterwards.........  I just felt I owed one of my instructor at least this.......  I wish you all well.  Kenpojoe hon suki I still need thanks for the dvd, sean thanks for coming down, board breaking seminar coming soon, Joe great to read your posts don't be a stranger, GM AC please visit my new school in Rehoboth when we reopen, thanks for coming to my first grand opening.  I again thank all of my instructor past, present, and future.....


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## misterv (Sep 27, 2006)

This is a weird thing. I just received a phone call concerning Robert Dragon Smith he is in a Hospital in Boston, and will have to be incubated most likely. I was asked to go visit him as he is not long for this earth. The doctor was asked will he get better, the doctor said no.  I would like to thank those of you who have trashed him. You have made his life worth living.  People have sent this man into a deep depression at times with stuff like this as he has not hurt anyone. I don't know what people get out of this. I will add more about the Dragon.  I will also ask you a question?  What makes a founder or a grandmaster?  A founder is simple anyone can be that. A grandmaster or 10th Degree is a different matter though. Seeing that we all speak English here is the actual definition for GRANDMASTER: "a person at the highest level of ability or achievement in any field."  Well since his diabetis he is not at the highest level of ability so anyone who is not at the highest level of ability should rip their rank off their belt according to posts that I read on other forums as once instructors get older they are mocked, and ridiculed. But the other definition makes more sense here meaning a person of the highest level of achievement in any field.  Now this pertains to alot of people who put in the proper time, trained many, helped the community, developed their artform, and much more to the highest level of achievement. Now Dragon has been studying for over 30 years isn't this deserving of a high level of achievement?  He was not a 10 year black belt calling himself a grandmaster or who took a video course.  He talked about being a founder or sijo with me before.  He personally told me that he didn't think people who just took pieces of one style and added it to stuff they learned and then call it Hong Kong Fuey Martial Arts should be called a founder.  You see through his 30 plus years he has formulated a system that has been recognized by many as being a top notch system, or practitioner.  Through self-discovery he has formulated his own techniques, forms, and more on his own. His system is not a system pieced together like many others with a few years of training. Now guys I understand that these self named grandmaster anger you, and I agree. But legitimate grandmasters as the Dragon don't deserve this either. Now let us also give credit where credit is due. Kenpojoe is a very well respected martial artist by many out here on the East coast, with a wealth of knowledge.  Also Lawdog is another well respected grandmaster out here on the east coast. Also Kenposhaun is a great guy as well who taught at my last FREE seminar.  There is alot of knowledge out here on the internet most of it good.  Again I will hold a FREE seminar in August for all to come to share knowledge with.  I want nothing in return from anyone just to increase my knowledge.  I have had others offer to crossrank me in other systems. I have refused as this makes no sense.  I stay true to my original kempo material learned from first black belt instructor, I have added things to it that I like along the way that make sense to me such as more jujitsu and chin na, stick and knife drills, and other blocking drills too, even some kicks that I like from another style. I am now getting into ground fighting more. Something that I lack in. Yes I can admit it.  But a guy from Connecticut is coming down, and also one of the dads of my student is a no holds barred fighter with another local school who fights in the world fighting league out here in the west coast.  The more I know the more I realize that I don't know nothing.... Just so you know I wear a unique black belt. It is black on one side and white on the other as even though I am a black belt I am forever a student........  There is to much to learn so for me I will never reach master level.....  So much to say. If anyone wants to and you are in my area come spend the day with me see how my school runs, we can go out for breakfast then you can watch or teach my classes.  Also for you military guys out there I partnered with two marines who teach tae kwon do and jujitsu.  Our schools have done so much together.  They got us into kickboxing, and board breaking.  The best things that I have done for my students.  Again maybe I should change my name on this forum to the "Bionic Mouth"  Those of you who know me know I love to talk. LOL.........  I wish you all well and healthy journey.....


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## KempoShaun (Sep 27, 2006)

Doug, I'm sure Sijo Smith would be touched by your replies.  As you know, I've recently been working with Rebelo Sensei on Jujutsu, and he always cross references things to either Mr. German or Sijo Smith.  While, sadly, I skipped out on the oppurtunities I had to train with him, I do know how many hearts and arts he heas affected.  I, too, am following his health condition with Rebelo Sensei, and can only wish him the best, what he is going through is not easy.  Now, that being said, I've worked with both you, Doug (MisterV) and weekly work with hall of fame Martial Arts instructor and historian, Joe Rebelo.  If you two tell me that Sijo Smith was as good as he is, I know it to be true.  But, sadly, there are people here who don't know, or haven't had the oppurtunity to train with either of you, so don't know how legitimate your praise is.  Also, sadly, we SHOULD be skeptical about "grandmasters, Sijo's and Soke's" in this day and age, because almost everyone claims to be one.  Heck, I'm getting "ripped a new one" (or so it feels, I could be wrong) about my Wado lineage over on Budoseek.net, just because I don't know my full lineage, and took my former instructor's word that he had trained with one of the greatest Martial Artist's in the world.  But I think through this thread, we have established that Sijo Smith knew what he was teaching, and deserved all the praise and accolades we give to him.


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## Medicineman (Oct 17, 2006)

Any new news on the health of Sijo Smiths'?   
It is a terrible thing to lose the those who have so much left to teach.
Ethier from passing away or just losing the will to teach.
For all of those out there questioning Sijo Smiths' claims,  spend some time researcing instead of just assuming he is not legit.  If you have a question go find the answer!  Don't wait for it to come to you, you never know where it is coming from.


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## misterv (Oct 18, 2006)

It is now 5:48PM EST.  I just got news that Sijo Smith Died at 5:00PM EST.
For those of you who degraded him shame on you all.  It does not speak well of your nature.  He was a legit martial artist and a Navy man.  Kenpo Joe is working on his funeral arrangements.  This man hit hard times just like you or I can do in the blink of an eye.  They are going to get the Navy or Vets to pay for his funeral.  So if he wasn't a Navy man why would they do it for those of you who question him. Or better yet question him being a Navy Seal.  Come to the wake and funeral and ask the Veterans yourself.  He died at Boston Memorial Hospital.  He showed me many things.  If you question his legitimacy please in a freindly manner come see me at my school and I will show you what this man showed me.  He made some of my stuff better.  I use these simple demonstrations when doing seminars.  This speaks of how much he knew.  He also did pressure point fighting.  Even at my school when a black belt threw a round house kick he caught it by stepping in, and he had a pen on him and shoved it in his sneaker and tweaked him in a nerve to severe pain.  We were all hooked on what he knew.  Again I will repy back more.  I am aggrevated that people spen their time bashing others.  If this makes you feel important then I fell bad for you.  I will go now and train.  This is where my time is best spent.  I am not the best martial artist around but I keep kids off of drugs, help those kids who are arrested, help kids stay in school, council parents, kids, families, and so much more.  This is what I do.  Some of you here again know me, or heard of me.  If you read this let tomorrow be a new day for us all as life is short, and Dragon Sijo Smith would want us all to do, treat each other with respect.  He said this part of the martial arts has been missing for a long time.  Rest in peace.


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## Danjo (Oct 18, 2006)

misterv said:


> It is now 5:48PM EST. I just got news that Sijo Smith Died at 5:00PM EST.
> For those of you who degraded him shame on you all. It does not speak well of your nature. He was a legit martial artist and a Navy man. Kenpo Joe is working on his funeral arrangements. This man hit hard times just like you or I can do in the blink of an eye. They are going to get the Navy or Vets to pay for his funeral. So if he wasn't a Navy man why would they do it for those of you who question him. Or better yet question him being a Navy Seal. Come to the wake and funeral and ask the Veterans yourself. He died at Boston Memorial Hospital. He showed me many things. If you question his legitimacy please in a freindly manner come see me at my school and I will show you what this man showed me. He made some of my stuff better. I use these simple demonstrations when doing seminars. This speaks of how much he knew. He also did pressure point fighting. Even at my school when a black belt threw a round house kick he caught it by stepping in, and he had a pen on him and shoved it in his sneaker and tweaked him in a nerve to severe pain. We were all hooked on what he knew. Again I will repy back more. I am aggrevated that people spen their time bashing others. If this makes you feel important then I fell bad for you. I will go now and train. This is where my time is best spent. I am not the best martial artist around but I keep kids off of drugs, help those kids who are arrested, help kids stay in school, council parents, kids, families, and so much more. This is what I do. Some of you here again know me, or heard of me. If you read this let tomorrow be a new day for us all as life is short, and Dragon Sijo Smith would want us all to do, treat each other with respect. He said this part of the martial arts has been missing for a long time. Rest in peace.


 
Well, I'm sorry to hear that you lost your friend. I'm also sorry if you found some of the things said here by me or others to be insensitive. It seems like a cheap shot to suggest that we were wrong because the man had fallen on hard times and became ill. I don't think that one thing had anything to do with the other. The facts remain whatever they are and this forum is used to get information out one way or another. The fact that this man's claims seemed to be pretty outrageous doesn't go away simply because the man became ill and has now passed away. Or are you suggesting that we should simply believe him because he became ill and has now died?

Are you perhaps implying that we were wishing this man ill health and financial misfortune? Are you suggesting that those of us that questioned his credentials caused his death, misfortune or ill health? Do you think that because we were questioning this man's martial arts accomplishments, that we wanted him to die?

You have come on here and falsely linked these things together. No one here wished this man ill health, financial ruin or death. To suggest that we are bad humans because this man who made these outlandish claims became ill etc. is BS.

I'm sorry that your friend died. But don't you dare come one here and tell me to be ashamed of myself for writing about my honest impressions about what this person put out there in public, or somehow imply that one thing had to do with the other.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 18, 2006)

See what you guys did. You killed the guy with your banter. I ken you will take care next time a master's credentials are in question.:soapbox: 
Sean


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## KempoShaun (Oct 21, 2006)

classy post guys...  jeez.  Doug, I grieve with you and Sensei Rebelo.  I've learned much of Sijo Smith's material in my lessons with Joe.  Let people say what they want.  We know who he was, and what he did.  The other's opinions do not matter when we have all the proof we need.  due to others in the past, it's only normal these days that we sadly question every claim that people these days make.  but for some idiot to come on here and make fun of this man's death by saying other posters caused it by not beleiving...  Well, whatever.  Sijo Smith fought right up to the end.  In the last week, I got daily calls from Rebelo Sensei on Sijo's declining health.  Never having met the man, and knowing that I will still miss him, well, for me that means something.  I'm sure we'll workout together soon Doug, take care my friend!


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## Tames D (Oct 23, 2006)

I'm sorry to hear of Mr. Smith's death. Doe's anyone know his age?


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## KempoShaun (Oct 24, 2006)

I believe Sijo was 58 (or there abouts).  Rebelo Sensei would probably know better.  I just spoke to him and he is arranging the funeral and other loose ends that need tying up...


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## KENPOJOE (Oct 25, 2006)

Hi Folks!
I've just finished the preliminaries of having "Sijo" Smith funeral and burial. Those interested parties can contact me at kenpojoe@aol.com. He will receive a military funeral and I have his honorable discharge attesting to the fact that he was a member of U.S. Navy. I have not seen his "DD 214" [those of you who are military will know what I am refering to] So I cannot attest to his SEAL status,nor do I really care regarding that particular matter. I am far too busy trying to have my instructor & friend properly interred. I understand how those of you who are military men/women would feel slighted and I know all to well that many times it's a policy of "Suspect than prospect" in regards to people's credentials. I went through it myself when I first got online years ago. I know for a fact that I can vouch for "Dragon's" efficency and knowledge and his ability to convey his art to others. I will continue to offer his art for those who wish to learn it and to provide information/media on the Shao Choy Hung Kung Fu system to educate the martial arts as well as general public. As of late, many times I have been placed in a position of perpectuating a given style/system and finding merit in said style/system, Have instructed/educated others regarding said styles/systems. But all this is secondary to the simple fact that now this will be the 7th instructor/mentor that I have buried in the last 16 years and the 3rd such person this year alone. Simply stated,the cold hard fact is the one thing we can absolutely sure of is that we are all going to die. I plan now, as I have in the past, to use my short time on this planet to teach,instruct,educate,mentor and generally assist all martial artists in their respective journeys through the legacy of the grandmasters,masters,professors and instructors who thought me worthy to impart their knowledge to me. For that I am eternally grateful. By the same token I will steadfastly stand by what they believed in and support their given philosophies. I will also defend them because they are no longer here to defend themselves. For those of you who sincerely asked regarding Sijo Smith's health, thank you, for those of you honestly questioned about his art, I will be happy to answer your queries regarding it. For those of you who questioned his military career,I know he was a navy man because he's receiving a military funeral. As to whether he was a SEAL, I won't know that until I personally see his military records and of all the various aspects of his life, that to me is the least important thing to me. I'm far more concerned with trying to contact his only living relatives to let them know their sibling is dead. 
Thank you for your time,
KENPOJOE
BTW,Bob Smith died in Boston on Tuesday,October 17th of pulmonary failure. He was 58.


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## Tames D (Oct 25, 2006)

.


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## KempoShaun (Oct 25, 2006)

Joe, I hope to come down for a lesson Sunday.  If I don't make it, you know how to reach me if there's anything I can do to help out with the arrangements for Sijo Smith.  See you soon.


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## Ezrik (Mar 26, 2007)

Alright, I'm coming in late here, and god rest Bob, but this is complete ********.

I knew Bob Smith in the early Eighties; I was good friends with him and his wife Shelley then and he gave me my start in martial arts.  But he wasn't any SEAL, and he wasn't any black belt, and he sure hadn't taught martial arts in the service -- the only belt he claimed in those days was a BROWN belt, and what he was doing was teaching basic combat in the local PAL teen center in Pembroke.  He was unemployed, since he'd been a trucker and his bum foot kept him from doing any of that.  He didn't want any fancy titles then and he sure wasn't nicknamed "Dragon" or anything else.  I moved out of the area in the mid-1980s and we lost track then, until I did a Google search a half hour ago seeing if I could find out what happened to him.

What happened is that my honest friend of 25 years ago turned into a bullshido con man.

10th degree this, 8th degree that, inventing schools, saying he's on some council of grandmasters?  A guy with a brown belt at age 38 (and a bad foot) teaching high school kids some throws and strikes suddenly turns into some martial arts superstar?

I'm sad to find out my friend is dead, and sad for his wife and daughter.  But I'm sadder that a guy who wouldn't wear a black belt he hadn't actually been awarded and who said he wasn't going to _teach_ a style because he preferred to teach what worked in a streetfight, not pretty katas on a mat, I'm sadder that the man I admired died a liar.


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## Ezrik (Mar 26, 2007)

Couple of other things.  Before anyone asks, I looked at some of the photos on the site, and it's the same Bob Smith alright.

Another thing.  He said he taught SEALS combat in the late 1960s?  The guy was born in 1948 for frak's sake!  The SEALS'd have to be humped real bad to need 19 year old martial arts instructors.  That was when he was in the service, but he said he hadn't been in Nam and only did a single TOD.

Man, this is seven shades of bummer.


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## KENPOJOE (Mar 26, 2007)

Ezrik said:


> Alright, I'm coming in late here, and god rest Bob, but this is complete ********.
> 
> I knew Bob Smith in the early Eighties; I was good friends with him and his wife Shelley then and he gave me my start in martial arts. But he wasn't any SEAL, and he wasn't any black belt, and he sure hadn't taught martial arts in the service -- the only belt he claimed in those days was a BROWN belt, and what he was doing was teaching basic combat in the local PAL teen center in Pembroke. He was unemployed, since he'd been a trucker and his bum foot kept him from doing any of that. He didn't want any fancy titles then and he sure wasn't nicknamed "Dragon" or anything else. I moved out of the area in the mid-1980s and we lost track then, until I did a Google search a half hour ago seeing if I could find out what happened to him.
> 
> ...


 
Hi folks!
Got this post today and definitely had mixed feelings...
To respond to "Ezrik" and his comments. Yes, in the early 1980's [over 20 years ago] Bob Smith taught martial arts at the Pembroke Boys & Girls Club. After his death, I did research and found out that indeed he had served in the military for a short time. He was not a seal nor did he serve sufficently to be a martial arts instructor for the military. However, He was a veteran and died as one. I have absolutely no idea why he chose to say these things and he took those reasons to the grave.
I'm glad that you got your start with "Sijo" Smith back in his humble beginnings. He told me of his being a trucker in the past and he had his share of physical ailments that finally took his life. 
However, As you clearly state,you were gone from the area for over 20 years. Did you expect Bob to sit in a Martial Arts version of termporal stasis and do nothing to improve his lot in life? Well, I'm sure you'll be glad to know that he did more than simply stay at the PAL. He went on to contact other martial artists. He went on to test for his Black Belt before a board of Martial Arts Black Belts to obtain it. He then worked with and studied various Chinese/Japanese Martial arts. He met with Mr. Larry Gillett, who introduced him to Jujutsu and Aikido. He met with Carlos Febres of the Nindo Ryu organization who increased his martial arts knowledge and recognized him eventually for the creation of his own style after watching many of Sijo Smith's Classes, watching his student's progress before awarding him the rightful recognition that he himself did not seek. He didn't look to be elevated to those ranks. Others voluntarily recognized him. He always looked at how others moved,taught, and gave insight to their students and sought their council on matters to improve his students and himself. I knew him for over 17 years and saw the progress in his art. But, unfortunately, you werent' there. So you never saw any of the later martial arts acheivements he would receive, nor did you see the progress of what would become "Shao Choy Hung Kung Fu".
I do not condone him stating erroneous information about his military career. Simply stated, it wasn't important to me. I was interested in martial arts. I assisted him in his classes,sat on testing boards for his students [including his daughter], and helped him develop what to brcome HIS system.
If you saw how much he had added to his initial training you would have been impressed. Now that he has died, one of his oldest student [who started after you left too so you probably wouldn't know him either] and myself were asked to carry on his teaching in some capacity. Presently, We are putting together a series of instructional DVDs that will show the world what Bob Smith learned and taught over the 20+ years that you weren't around!
As I stated previously, I did not always see eye to eye with Sijo Smith and we had our differences. But when he died, those who beleived in him were still there for him. If you want to find out what happened in the over 2 decades that you weren't around, Please feel free to contact me.
Take solace in the fact that you are right in a few points. Bob "didn't take a belt he hadn't been awarded by someone else" and he didn't "just teach a style", he created a system. 
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE (Mar 26, 2007)

Ezrik said:


> Couple of other things. Before anyone asks, I looked at some of the photos on the site, and it's the same Bob Smith alright.
> 
> Another thing. He said he taught SEALS combat in the late 1960s? The guy was born in 1948 for frak's sake! The SEALS'd have to be humped real bad to need 19 year old martial arts instructors. That was when he was in the service, but he said he hadn't been in Nam and only did a single TOD.
> 
> Man, this is seven shades of bummer.


 
Hi folks!
Dear Ezrik,
From the information you provided, I thought you actually knew Bob 2+ decades ago. As far as his short stint in the military, I addressed it in the previous post. We are in the process of taking down his old website and placing a proper memorial to his art. You can see a listing of his death notice at www.kenpojoe.com. Unfortunately, Many in our industy have chosen to "pad their resumes" and it's sad when they have done enough accomplishments to merit proper respect in regards to the martial arts.
Again, feel free to contact me.
KENPOJOE


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## Danjo (Mar 27, 2007)

KENPOJOE said:


> He was not a seal nor did he serve sufficently to be a martial arts instructor for the military. However, He was a veteran and died as one. I have absolutely no idea why he chose to say these things and he took those reasons to the grave....
> ...But when he died, those who beleived in him were still there for him.


 
Padding one's resume' is when you say that you were a "Sanitation Engineer in charge of the complex mechanical operations of the petroleum powered refuse collection and transportation device." When, in fact you drove a garbage truck. 

Saying that you were a SEAL and that you taught them hand to hand combat when you didn't is LYING, not "padding". It's disingenuous to say that you "have absolutely no idea why he chose to say these things." Sure you do, and so do we. He did it to convince people that he was something he was not so that people would buy from him whatever he was selling. The only thing he took to the grave was how he could have the gall to say it.


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## KempoShaun (Mar 27, 2007)

The man is dead.  What he said doesn't really matter anymore.  The main thing is that his students, Rebelo Sensei among them, remember him for what he DID, not what he said.  A good man is dead, is there any way to let it go?  I know of plenty of other people we could attack because of padding one's resume with things they wish were true, that are still alive, that we can bash if you want.   :disgust:


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## Danjo (Mar 27, 2007)

KempoShaun said:


> The man is dead. What he said doesn't really matter anymore. The main thing is that his students, Rebelo Sensei among them, remember him for what he DID, not what he said. A good man is dead, is there any way to let it go? I know of plenty of other people we could attack because of padding one's resume with things they wish were true, that are still alive, that we can bash if you want.  :disgust:


 
I guess your definition of "Good Man" is different from mine. To me he's just another "Tail-Gunner Joe".


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## KempoShaun (Mar 27, 2007)

I don't know what a tail gunner joe is, but unless a man "hurts" someone, I leave it to God to judge him.  I don't condone lying, but in this case it hurt nobody, so I leave it in Gods capable hands.  Now if the lie had led to someone being hurt physically, mentaly, emotionally or spiritually, or even hurt what non-MA folks think of the arts, then I'd have a problem with it.  Luckily, I know people with whom he trained and taught, and it didn't hurt anyone, and regardless of what he said, his execution and knowledge of the arts were vast.  Let the man R.I.P. since he isn't here to defend himself.  Not disagreeing with you Danjo, just don't see the point in beating this to death my friend.


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## Danjo (Mar 27, 2007)

KempoShaun said:


> I don't know what a tail gunner joe is, but unless a man "hurts" someone, I leave it to God to judge him. I don't condone lying, but in this case it hurt nobody, so I leave it in Gods capable hands. Now if the lie had led to someone being hurt physically, mentaly, emotionally or spiritually, or even hurt what non-MA folks think of the arts, then I'd have a problem with it. Luckily, I know people with whom he trained and taught, and it didn't hurt anyone, and regardless of what he said, his execution and knowledge of the arts were vast. Let the man R.I.P. since he isn't here to defend himself. Not disagreeing with you Danjo, just don't see the point in beating this to death my friend.


 
Well, I don't know whether he made it right with God or not, but I don't think we should just wink at someone faking their service record. Our boys in the service often get little more than the personal pride and recognition that they were a part of an elite group that put it on the line for our country. If we just allow anyone that wants to to say it whether they were or not, then it's a downward slope. Tailgunner Joe was Joe McCarthy who notoriously lied about his war record and was caught.


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## Kreth (Mar 27, 2007)

The Nindo Ryu rankings are enough to make me


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## MJS (Mar 27, 2007)

Attention All Users:

The original question has been answered.  There is no point in dragging this issue on, considering that he is deceased.  At this time, this thread is being closed.

Mike Slosek
MT Asst. Admin


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## John Bishop (Mar 27, 2007)

The original question that started this thread 3 years ago was:

_"This is from a post I placed in the Chinese Martial Arts forum, the gentleman also claims to hold rank in Chinese Kenpo so I figured I post it here too...

_ _I ran across this guy's website fishing around on the net. http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/robertsmith/

_ _He claims to have taught SEAL Teams H2H in 1968. HOw true is this and does anyone know if indeed he was a SEAL Team Operator?

Quote:
The Dragon was a Navy Seal and assistant martial arts instructor for the Navy Seals in 1968_" 

That question has been answered.  And the gentleman has now passed.
There are those that are appalled by his behavior, and those who aren't.  
But it will do no good to argue it out now, since he won't be making  anymore false claims.  

So, lets move on.


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