# U.S. Soldiers Accused Of Raping Teenagers



## MA-Caver (Oct 8, 2011)

> SEOUL, South Korea (AP) &#8212; Two U.S. soldiers have been accused of raping teenage girls  in South Korea in separate incidents, prompting U.S. military officials  to apologize Saturday as they tried to ease growing public anger.
> 
> Army Brig. Gen. David Conboy, who supervises the U.S. garrison in Seoul,  issued a statement apologizing for "pain" caused by allegations that a  U.S. soldier raped a girl in her rented room in Seoul on Sept. 17. That  solider &#8212; a private in his early 20s &#8212; is being questioned by police but  has not been arrested.
> Another U.S. private has been arrested on suspicion of raping a teenage girl on Sept. 24 in a city north of Seoul.
> ...


Hopefully he was referring to BOTH of them. 

This doesn't help. Doesn't help our relations with other countries when we have a military presence there to provide aid when/how it's needed. It doesn't help shed a good light on "peace-keeping" forces when incidents like these pop up. How many in how many countries have gone unreported? 
Hopefully these two will face charges and indictments and be dishonorably discharged from whatever branch they're presently in. Rape is still rape and no still means no dammit, no matter what language it's in.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 8, 2011)

At present things still seem to be at the allegations stage, legally speaking, in one of these cases, whereas there has been an arrest made in the other.  Of course, it must be borne in mind that arrest does not equal guilt but I think, regardless of the actual truth of events, the diplomatic damage has already been done.


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## Twin Fist (Oct 8, 2011)

you ever been over there?

i have

fully 90% of these allegations are blatant extortion and nothing else.

let the facts come out before making judgements bro





MA-Caver said:


> Hopefully he was referring to BOTH of them.
> 
> This doesn't help. Doesn't help our relations with other countries when we have a military presence there to provide aid when/how it's needed. It doesn't help shed a good light on "peace-keeping" forces when incidents like these pop up. How many in how many countries have gone unreported?
> Hopefully these two will face charges and indictments and be dishonorably discharged from whatever branch they're presently in. Rape is still rape and no still means no dammit, no matter what language it's in.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 8, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> you ever been over there?



Yes.  

I tend to disagree with your assessment.  But I agree that it is important to let the facts come out.


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## Twin Fist (Oct 8, 2011)

well Bill, in the late 80's early 90's, when i was over there, there was always some accusation of something and they were almost always BS. In japan and okinawa not so much but in korea? almost all were false.


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## Buka (Oct 8, 2011)

"The top U.S. diplomat for East Asia, Kurt Campbell, apologized Friday for what he called a "tragic and inexcusable rape that took place about a week ago."

Tragic and inexcusable? As opposed to what?


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2011)

Far better to take the accusations at face value, investigate them seriously to be seen as being responsible and compassionate. Then there will be no egg on the faces of the Americans if the soldiers are guilty, if it turns out the allegations are false the American authorities will be seen to be trustworthy, the accused soldiers vindicated and have their names cleared, always an important thing in these things. If however the case is proved against the soldiers the American authrities must be seen to again take it seriously and they should be suitably punished, exactly the same as if they were in America.
Prejudging is never a good idea apart from that it's extremely unfair.


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## Twin Fist (Oct 9, 2011)

true



Tez3 said:


> Far better to take the accusations at face value, investigate them seriously to be seen as being responsible and compassionate. Then there will be no egg on the faces of the Americans if the soldiers are guilty, if it turns out the allegations are false the American authorities will be seen to be trustworthy, the accused soldiers vindicated and have their names cleared, always an important thing in these things. If however the case is proved against the soldiers the American authrities must be seen to again take it seriously and they should be suitably punished, exactly the same as if they were in America.
> Prejudging is never a good idea apart from that it's extremely unfair.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 10, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> well Bill, in the late 80's early 90's, when i was over there, there was always some accusation of something and they were almost always BS. In japan and okinawa not so much but in korea? almost all were false.



As far as I know, when I was there, reports of rape weren't all that common.  They were investigated.  The Korean government normally allowed the US military to investigate and prosecute if there was sufficient evidence to do so.  I was last there in 1987, and Korea has changed a great deal.  

According the the report linked to, there have been protests, including by a minor political party.  I guess that explains some of the problems.  Korea has changed.  Anti-Americanism seems to be stronger and more tolerated.  Crime isn't to be tolerated, but used to fan anti-Americanism isn't too cool either.  I don't know that there is any history of the US military refusing to investigate crimes, and prosecute when there is sufficient evidence to do so.  I think someone must have their own agenda in all this.


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## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2011)

oftheherd1 said:


> As far as I know, when I was there, reports of rape weren't all that common. They were investigated. The Korean government normally allowed the US military to investigate and prosecute if there was sufficient evidence to do so. I was last there in 1987, and Korea has changed a great deal.
> 
> According the the report linked to, there have been protests, including by a minor political party. I guess that explains some of the problems. Korea has changed. Anti-Americanism seems to be stronger and more tolerated. Crime isn't to be tolerated, but used to fan anti-Americanism isn't too cool either. I don't know that there is any history of the US military refusing to investigate crimes, and prosecute when there is sufficient evidence to do so. I think *someone must have their own agenda in all this*.



Or two girls were raped by US soldiers.


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## MA-Caver (Oct 10, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> > Originally Posted by *oftheherd1*
> >
> >
> >
> ...


I posted this thread because when I first read the headline and then the story ... it... did... not... shock me. I too, find it disheartening that the allegation was brought up against two of our troops, but I refuse to believe that *every-single-soldier* wearing the uniform is a chaste, good, honest, law-abiding individual. I will affirm to my belief that a MAJORITY of the men/women in the U.S. military uniform are good people. But not all. Thus as Tez pointed out the responsible thing will be done by those in command of those troops. Hopefully the allegation will be proven false or hopefully if proven correct justice will be served.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 10, 2011)

I know it's only a relatively uncomplex algorithm and so I shouldn't get too upset about it but I was caused to growl inside a little that the web apps saw fit to slap a Chinese Girls dating advert on this page :tdown:.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 10, 2011)

Originally Posted by *Tez3* 

 





 Originally Posted by *oftheherd1* 

 

 				As far as I know, when I was there, reports of  rape weren't all  that common. They were investigated. The Korean  government normally  allowed the US military to investigate and prosecute  if there was  sufficient evidence to do so. I was last there in 1987,  and Korea has  changed a great deal. 

According the the report linked to, there have been protests, including   by a minor political party. I guess that explains some of the problems.   Korea has changed. Anti-Americanism seems to be stronger and more   tolerated. Crime isn't to be tolerated, but used to fan anti-Americanism   isn't too cool either. I don't know that there is any history of the  US  military refusing to investigate crimes, and prosecute when there is   sufficient evidence to do so. I think *someone must have their own agenda in all this*. 			 		


  Or two girls were raped by US soldiers.







MA-Caver said:


> I posted this thread because when I first read the headline and then the story ... it... did... not... shock me. I too, find it disheartening that the allegation was brought up against two of our troops, but I refuse to believe that *every-single-soldier* wearing the uniform is a chaste, good, honest, law-abiding individual. I will affirm to my belief that a MAJORITY of the men/women in the U.S. military uniform are good people. But not all. Thus as Tez pointed out the responsible thing will be done by those in command of those troops. Hopefully the allegation will be proven false or hopefully if proven correct justice will be served.



First - I hope no one thinks I condone any crime, much less rape.  I do not.  If those servicemen committed rape, I hope there is enough evidence and they are court-martialed and found guilty, and given appropriate sentences. 

Second - I still think there is another agenda.  Whether or not two servicemen raped two Korean women.  I understand there are reports in Korean of some pretty horrid sexual crimes being committed by Koreans against Koreans.  

Third - I agree that one should not assume US servicemen are incapable of committing crimes.  I think they might be under a little more expectation of swift discipline, and therefore a little less inclined to commit a crime without some reflection as to whether or not it is worth it.  But some US servicemen will commit crimes no matter.  Reason number 1?  The military draws its members from the US populace, and therefore is a reflection of the civilian populace.  Some are really good people, some are average, and some are just bad.  For some reason, people often forget where servicemen come from when they want to paint them as inherently bad.​


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2011)

I hope you don't think I was painting service people as bad! In my job I know exactly who service people are and I would actually disagree with you in that they expect swifter discipline, when we investigate such crimes the soldiers 'green up', they cover for each other, even the officers do preferring to think they can deal with it 'in house' as it were. Also I'd add that alcohol has a lot to answer for, nearly all the crimes commited by our military are due to the influence of alcohol.


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## David43515 (Oct 11, 2011)

Here in Japan we have a large US military pressance in the the south. (I live so far up north that I think of most of the country as "the south") And we do occationally have incidents of soldiers, sailors, or marines commiting some violent crime. (Rape, armed robbery, etc) The stories make big headlines because they`re rare and foreign soldiers stand out. I can`t recall where  I read the statistics, but someone sat down and figured out the number of rapes and assaults that take place in Okinanwa each year and how many were done by US servicemen vs how many involved local population. Then they balanced it out regarding how many locals there were vs soldiers, removing local males under 17 and over 55, and comparing the number of crimes per capita for both groups. They figured that a woman was 8 times more likely to be attacked by another Japanee than by a US serviceman.

Yes, the armed services draw their numbers from the regular populartion. But the slackers and trouble makers are far fewer in a volunteer service than they would be in a service formed by the draft because those types are less likely to volunteer in the first place. It`s not too dissimilar to the way that the majority of the military votes quite conservative even though more of the country is more liberal. More conservatives tend to join up in the first place.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 11, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I hope you don't think I was painting service people as bad! In my job I know exactly who service people are and I would actually disagree with you in that they expect swifter discipline, when we investigate such crimes the soldiers 'green up', they cover for each other, even the officers do preferring to think they can deal with it 'in house' as it were. Also I'd add that alcohol has a lot to answer for, nearly all the crimes commited by our military are due to the influence of alcohol.



I can agree that many crimes have alcohol involved.  I am not sure I would agree that nearly all do, at least not in the US military, although I have to admit I haven't seen statistics on that in so long I don't even remember what they used to show.  The current US military, or at least the Army, according to what I am told, is very intolerant of alcohol abuse.

I see you show England as your current location.  Are you involved in law enforcement for the military there?  I have no idea how the two militaries relate as far as alcohold abuse, or the tolerance, or crimes under the influence.  Just curious.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 11, 2011)

David43515 said:


> Here in Japan we have a large US military pressance in the the south. (I live so far up north that I think of most of the country as "the south") And we do occationally have incidents of soldiers, sailors, or marines commiting some violent crime. (Rape, armed robbery, etc) The stories make big headlines because they`re rare and foreign soldiers stand out. I can`t recall where I read the statistics, but someone sat down and figured out the number of rapes and assaults that take place in Okinanwa each year and how many were done by US servicemen vs how many involved local population. Then they balanced it out regarding how many locals there were vs soldiers, removing local males under 17 and over 55, and comparing the number of crimes per capita for both groups. They figured that a woman was 8 times more likely to be attacked by another Japanee than by a US serviceman.
> 
> Yes, the armed services draw their numbers from the regular populartion. But the slackers and trouble makers are far fewer in a volunteer service than they would be in a service formed by the draft because those types are less likely to volunteer in the first place. It`s not too dissimilar to the way that the majority of the military votes quite conservative even though more of the country is more liberal. More conservatives tend to join up in the first place.



Those are interesting statistics on crime in Japan, but would not agree with how I remembered crime when I was on Okinawa some many years ago.  Or the local crime rate was very low.  I don't know how many allegations of rape there might have been against military members, but I only know of one person who was incarcerated pending court-martial during the time I was there.

I am conflicted by your statement on less slackers in a volunteer force versus a draft.  The US Army was the only service that took draftees for many years.  The Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force always got enough voluteers not to need to rely on the draft.  Some preferred the service they volunteered for, some just wanted to avoid service in the Army, even if it would only be two years, and some probably volunteered for a combination of both reasons.  However, the way the draft worked, it was usually people in the early to middle twenties who were drafted.  That made them a little more mature and settled than 18-19 year olds who were voluteering.  Whatever that means about committing crime.  Quite often they were married and had children.  

Kennedy changed that dynamic about 1962, declaring that married people would not be subject to the draft.  There was a bit of a rush for many to get married.  Some marraiges lasted, a fair amount didn't.  I don't remember when the college deferment came in.  Later, Nixon stopped the draft, creating the need for an all volunteer Army.


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2011)

oftheherd1 said:


> I can agree that many crimes have alcohol involved. I am not sure I would agree that nearly all do, at least not in the US military, although I have to admit I haven't seen statistics on that in so long I don't even remember what they used to show. The current US military, or at least the Army, according to what I am told, is very intolerant of alcohol abuse.
> 
> I see you show England as your current location. *Are you involved in law enforcement for the military there*? I have no idea how the two militaries relate as far as alcohold abuse, or the tolerance, or crimes under the influence. Just curious.



Not military law enforcement as such they have their own Military Police, we deal with the civilian crime and security including anti terrorism for the MoD, we'll deal with crime in the military when civilians are involved such as rape cases.We'll also deal with the military though if there isn't their own military police available or it's a military dependant, it's a close working relationship though.  We're the only routinely civilian armed police force in the UK. 

Ah, alcohol and the squaddie! Our squaddies are hard drinking, hard fighting, they will shag anything with a pulse or at least still warm, they regard anything left lying around as a 'gizit', they are totally un PC yet are happy working with females, gays and transexuals, they have hearts of gold but can be as hard as steel, they'll fight anyone and anything, yet cradle a young Afghan child who's been injured as carefully as if it were their own. They are raucous, rude, in your face and proud of it but aren't ashamed to sit and cry. They'll wear dresses to their best mates funeral because they promised out in Afghan for a laugh they would and they kept their word. They take the mick out of everything and anyone but will fight to the last man for the regiment.  They are the best, most glorious, annoying, bravest soldiers you could want  and I love them to bits. 
They don't have a drink problem they just drink a lot! Not on deployment though. They can drink a bar dry in no time. This goes right the way through all the ranks and messes. No one expects British soldiers to be an example to anyone other than of guts and fighting ability, their honour is their own, most regiments have battle honours going back centuries (including the American War of Independence lol) Many regiments are families, literally, generations of families, brothers, uncles, fathers and son, of course they marry the sisters and daughters of the regiment and it goes on. This makes it very hard to investigate anything, they don't tell anything to 'outsiders'. On the other hand it's what makes their fighting spirit so good, they are fighting for their mates and family. Losing a soldier really hurts a regiment.


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## Twin Fist (Oct 11, 2011)

if they are guilty i hope they fry, if they are innocent, i hope they are exonerated


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## Carol (Oct 12, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> I think, regardless of the actual truth of events, the diplomatic damage has already been done.



Especially when you take this in to account:



> It&#8217;s the the second high-profile criminal case this year involving a 2ID  soldier. In April, Pvt. Lloyd Daniel of the 1st Heavy Brigade Combat  Team, was sentenced to seven years in a South Korean prison for breaking  into a home and assaulting an elderly Korean couple in February.



I believe you are correct.



> On Wednesday, South Korean media surprised U.S. military officials by  showing up at regularly scheduled meeting between 2ID&#8217;s provost marshal  and Dongducheon police, according to 2ID spokesman Lt. Col. Joseph  Scrocca. Several Dongducheon city council members also unexpectedly  attended the meeting, he said.



http://www.stripes.com/news/pacific...stody-of-u-s-soldier-accused-of-rape-1.156950
http://www.stripes.com/soldier-char...pe-to-be-tried-in-south-korean-court-1.138219
http://www.stripes.com/soldier-char...pe-to-be-tried-in-south-korean-court-1.138219


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 12, 2011)

Carol said:


> Especially when you take this in to account:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Another interesting story is from a link provided from one of the stories above.  

http://www.stripes.com/news/pacific...-status-of-forces-agreement-with-u-s-1.157548 

USA bashing has been a popular sport in Korea since the assasination of Pak ChungHi.  Note at the end of the story, the fact that Koreans don't like the FTA either.  They don't want to be forced to accept any of our goods, only be able to sell them to us.  Koreans, like many orientals can be coaxed into the streets rather easily, if their government, or favorite political party, or union, says it is a good idea.  It's part of the confucian legacy.

I don't know what the SOFA says now, since it was apparently modified in 2001.  But when I was there (over 7 years from 1974 to 1987), the Koreans still had primary jurisdiction.  They just seldom exercised it.  We have SOFA agreements with countries as we generally think our judician system has more protections than those of the foreign countries we have the SOFA with.  We also have better jails.  When I was there, for those US soldiers we had in Korean jails, The embassy checked on their welfare periodically, and the US Army fed them US meals every day.


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## Carol (Oct 12, 2011)

oftheherd1 said:


> Another interesting story is from a link provided from one of the stories above.
> 
> http://www.stripes.com/news/pacific...-status-of-forces-agreement-with-u-s-1.157548
> 
> ...



Is this sounding more like a political agenda to you? 

Partly curious as my 20 year old niece is serving as a MP, wouldn't be out of the question for her to be sent there.


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## Tez3 (Oct 12, 2011)

Of course the rapes could be real and some are looking to make political capital out of it, adding to the girls misery.


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## David43515 (Oct 12, 2011)

Either way, I think that it`s very important that our servicemen follow the laws of the country they`re serving in, and be subject to it`s punishments. If we expect these nations to see us as partners instead of an interfearance, or worse yet occupiers, we`ve got to be seen to be living by the same or higher standards than they set for themselves. We can`t try to protect someone from the consequences of breaking the law just because he wears our uniform. But I also think that it`s the job of the service to make sure that each soldier or sailor gets a fair trial. It`s a tough balancing act.

I tend to give most servicemen the benefit of the doubt. Until they prove otherwise I assume they`re moral and upstanding. But I`m also my mother`s son, my wife`s husband, and my daughters` dad. I can`t stomache the idea of men taking advantage of someone weaker than them, especially men we look to to _protect _the weak.


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## Tez3 (Oct 13, 2011)

Why do you all expect servicement to be more moral and more upstanding than the rest of the population, you ask them to kill people for you and do all the other dirty jobs but you want them to be purer than driven snow. I don't mean they should be allowed to rape etc but why hold them to a higher standard than anybody else? It's unfair, being a soldier is a job not a calling.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 1, 2011)

Update on this thread:

http://www.military.com/news/articl...ts-10-years-for-rape.html?ESRC=topstories.RSS



> US Soldier in SKorea Gets 10 Years for Rape
> November 01, 2011
> Associated Press|by Hyung-Jin Kim
> 
> ...



The other case is apparently still being investigated.


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## David43515 (Nov 1, 2011)

Thanks for the update Bill.

Tez, I assume your last comment was in response to what I said. If I`m mistaken excuse me. 
I don`t think of servicemen as automatically being better than the rest of us. Unless someone has given me reason to think otherwise I always like to think the best of people. When I meet someone new, I assume they`re honest and reasonably moral until they give me reason to doubt it. Just like I assume the people on the train with me are sane until I see something to prove me wrong. I assume most soldiers aren`t liars, theives, or rapists until or unless something happens to call that into question....just because I assume that about most people.

You`re right though that I probably do tend to give them the benfit of the doubt more than I would a civillian. It`s probably because All the men in my father`s family and his circle of friends were veterans, so were most of my older cousins. So I grew up thinking that most servicemen were like my Dad and uncles, good men you could look upto and who did what was right even when it wasn`t what would be easiest for them. Or because I tend to respect people who take responsabilty for things and work hard. But I`m not such an idealist as to think idiots and scumbags don`t enlist too. They do and sometimes they hang on for years. But I appreciate what you said, it made me stop and think.


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## oftheherd1 (Nov 3, 2011)

Carol said:


> Is this sounding more like a political agenda to you?
> 
> Partly curious as my 20 year old niece is serving as a MP, wouldn't be out of the question for her to be sent there.



If a rape was commited, and from Bill's link, the Korean courts have said it did, the miscreant deserves harsh punishment.  If my memory serves me, he will be confined to his cell unless he agrees to be with the rest of the population.  The military will provide him with American meals, and an embassy official will visit periodically; I think once a month.

But yes, I suspect there is some political agenda at work as well.  As to your neice, most likely if she goes there and watches her behavior, as I expect she would, she should not have a problem from most Koreans.  If she thinks she may be going, she might want to see if her service offers a Korean Head Start program.  The US Army used to do that, so a person could get a head start on learning the language and customs.

One thing I have been curious about is whether or not the young victim was a school girl or working in a factory.  The former would be possible, but not common.  The latter isn't uncommon there either.  I noted it was a Uijongbu court.  That is north of Seoul, but less isolated from Seoul than it was during MASH days.  Not that it matters if she was raped by a serviceman, rape is wrong no matter who commits it, but I just wonder if Korean news is not reporting the latter if that is her status.  Has anyone followed this enough to know?



David43515 said:


> Either way, I think that it`s very important that our servicemen follow the laws of the country they`re serving in, and be subject to it`s punishments. If we expect these nations to see us as partners instead of an interfearance, or worse yet occupiers, we`ve got to be seen to be living by the same or higher standards than they set for themselves. We can`t try to protect someone from the consequences of breaking the law just because he wears our uniform. But I also think that it`s the job of the service to make sure that each soldier or sailor gets a fair trial. It`s a tough balancing act.
> 
> I tend to give most servicemen the benefit of the doubt. Until they prove otherwise I assume they`re moral and upstanding. But I`m also my mother`s son, my wife`s husband, and my daughters` dad. I can`t stomache the idea of men taking advantage of someone weaker than them, especially men we look to to _protect _the weak.



Can't quite agree with you on this.  Many countries don't have the legal safeguards we are accumstomed to in the USA.  That is the main reason we prefer to try service members in our own courts.  In many countries there is the belief that if you are in court, you are guilty.  Otherwise you would not be in court.  Also detention facilities aren't always to our standards.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 19, 2012)

UPDATE:

http://www.military.com/news/articl...for-lighter-sentence.html?ESRC=topstories.RSS



> SEOUL &#8211; A South Korea appeals court Thursday rejected a U.S. soldier&#8217;s plea to reduce his 10-year prison sentence for the brutal rape of a Korean girl, saying he subjected the 17-year-old to &#8220;unimaginable&#8221; horror during the attack.
> 
> Seoul High Court Judge An Young-jin told Pvt. Kevin Flippin that while the three-judge panel took into consideration the soldier&#8217;s remorse for what he did, and that this was his first offense in South Korea, the sexual assault was too &#8220;perverted and sadistic&#8221; to reduce his prison sentence.



The story in the link is too graphic, I'm not going to quote it here.  Suffice to say, he deserves a 10-year sentence, if not more.  I don't care how drunk you are, what he did indicates serious moral depravity.


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## Sukerkin (Jan 19, 2012)

Agreed, Bill :nods:.


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