# Herbs vs Pharmacuticals



## Cryozombie (Oct 12, 2005)

We hear so much "conspiracy theory" nowadays about how the pharmacutical companies are aware of "Cures" for many diseases that are being suppresed because there is no money to be made in Cures, only in prolonged treatments...

Now people are coming out of the woodwork and claiming that they have cures for everything from Diabetes to Herpes, Hypertension, and even HIV. Most of these "cures" are of course Unlicenced Herbal treatments...

What do you guys and gals think... are the drug companies hiding cures from the world? Are the charlatans trying to huckster us with snake oil?

Do Herbs actually work, or are drugs the only way to go?


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## mantis (Oct 12, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> We hear so much "conspiracy theory" nowadays about how the pharmacutical companies are aware of "Cures" for many diseases that are being suppresed because there is no money to be made in Cures, only in prolonged treatments...
> 
> Now people are coming out of the woodwork and claiming that they have cures for everything from Diabetes to Herpes, Hypertension, and even HIV. Most of these "cures" are of course Unlicenced Herbal treatments...
> 
> ...


 Not only do herbs work but pharamacutical companies do extract their forumlas out of natural components found in natural herbs. 
 Chinese and Arabic medicine is not a lie or a joke, it has worked for a lone time. but the difference between today's medicine and that herbal medicine is that they used to eat the herb, drink it and so on, but now chemical formulas are extracted from it and mixed with other formulas, whether they are natural, herbal or industrial and packaged into nice packaging and sold.
 I also want to mention that old diseases were simpler than today's and that's because of pollution, adultry and other exessive practices 
 Now, I am not only talking about herbs, but other resources like bee venom, viper venom (no, not the super-fast car!), and from other animals/insects.
 I actually did a computer program for a professor who does research on leech, maggot, honey, bee-venom therapies at the university of california, Irvine.
 You might want to contact him, he usually responds with material (he take a week to reply) and this is his web site: http://bterfoundation.org (sorry, ugly site, but has too material)


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Oct 12, 2005)

I think, Yes to both. There are occasional instances of big pharma not pressing an issue of a remedy, because there's no profit in it for them. The hucksters use these occasional events to point an encompassing finger to justify thier personal snake oil.

One of my favorite illegal remedies is DMSO. Cheap to make; good for lots of stuff; shot down under shady circumstances during FDA investigation. No profit in it for the drug companies, because they can't patent it. Used as an approved drug in over 100 countries. Approved for use as a SOLVENT ONLY in the U.S., but manufacturers mix it with stuff that's "good for you" because of it's transdermal carrier action.  Now, whenever any scheister starts getting called to the carpet for their magic herbal meds, they all point at the DMSO legacy/history.

That said, there is a field called pharmacognosy, which focuses on studying natural source compounds for pharmaceutical isolation and application. The challenge they face, in my mind, is that plants themselves have thousands of phytochemical compounds, some of which may mediate the effects of the prime compound. So, do we extract the major player, leave out the minor support staff, and create side effects; or do we eat leaves?

Regards,

Dave


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## arnisador (Oct 12, 2005)

Herbs can work, sure...concentrating them is one way to get pharmaceuticals!

I have no problem with herbs--garlic has evidence behind it, to take one example, and cinnamon for hypertension--but scientists start from there and improve them, or find things that are similar but mor effective.


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## The Kai (Oct 13, 2005)

The odd thing is when mankind relied on folkloric medicine (like herbology) the life span was about what 50 years!


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## mantis (Oct 13, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> The odd thing is when mankind relied on folkloric medicine (like herbology) the life span was about what 50 years!


 well, i think it was due to two reasons
 first the doctors maybe did not know how to mix more than one herb and that could be because the right herbs did not grow in their areas. so they did not really use combinations complex enough
 second is because they way they lived was more careless, more dirty and it was hard to fight an infection spreading in a society like that.
 again, i think it's a matter of using those chemicals. those chemicals are found in nature anyway, so why not use them? in fact, for simple illnesses i see an advantage to herbs/natural medicine and that is IT TASTES BETTER! haha
 oh, well.. sometimes it stinks too
 i did some research and found these:
www.beelief.com

www2.shore.net/%7Espectrum/apitherapy.html
www.medicomm.net/Consumer%20Site/am/apitherapy.htm


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 13, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> The odd thing is when mankind relied on folkloric medicine (like herbology) the life span was about what 50 years!


that is because there were no herbal remedies for things like viruses that required vaccination or penicillin for bacterial infection...........but for the myriad of other ailments, "folk" remedies work just fine.


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## The Kai (Oct 13, 2005)

There are a ton of ailiments that herbology has no effectiveness over a placebo effect-anybody remember the claims for St john's Wart?  or Shark Cartiledge?


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## Lisa (Oct 13, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Do Herbs actually work, or are drugs the only way to go?



I think balance is the key.  Naturopathic ways of treating joint problems, etc. seem the be big now, go into any store and you will see aisles of different herbal medicines.

Some people swear by the stuff, others don't believe in it at all.  I think everything should be taken in stride and you find out what works for you and use the appropriate med/drug/herb at the appropriate time.  

Me personally, I take my eccinasia (sp?) and don't seem to get as sick as often, could be a coincidence but since it works for me, or at least I believe it does, I will continue , but should I get a throat infection/strep, I will not hesitate to get some antibiotic to clear it up.


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 13, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> There are a ton of ailiments that herbology has no effectiveness over a placebo effect-anybody remember the claims for St john's Wart? or Shark Cartiledge?


so does this mean that we should completely give up on the ones that are effective......or just toss all alternative modalities to the side of the road?


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## The Kai (Oct 13, 2005)

How do you test the effectiveness of alternative modalities?  Most of the evidence is ancedotal.  Most alternative therapies have not been double blind tested.  If you want to say "I'll do it no matter what if if can be proven or not" that's fine.  But that is not really evidence, but opinion (IMHO)


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 13, 2005)

so lets get rid of chiropractic, osteopathy, naturopathy, shiatsu, and everything else that doesnt fit in with western medical practice.


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## arnisador (Oct 13, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> so lets get rid of chiropractic, osteopathy, naturopathy, shiatsu, and everything else that doesnt fit in with western medical practice.


What's wrong with testing them? Evidence shows that chiropractic is good for mild-to-moderate low back pain but has little effect on other issues. What's wrong with knowing that?


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## arnisador (Oct 13, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> There are a ton of ailiments that herbology has no effectiveness over a placebo effect-anybody remember the claims for St john's Wart? or Shark Cartiledge?


Laetrile?

But research does show some positive effects from some herbs.

But, most of those effects would be dwarfed by the effects of just following a healthy diet and maintaining a healthy weight.


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 13, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> What's wrong with testing them? Evidence shows that chiropractic is good for mild-to-moderate low back pain but has little effect on other issues. What's wrong with knowing that?


i think that chiropractic is effective for more than just lower back pain.
ive been practicing namikoshi shiatsu for 6 years, which is excellent at treating a host of issues.
my whole point is, not everything effects 100% of the people 100% of the time as described on the package.
i see nothing wrong with testing the efficacy of any modality.......as long as the testing is performed by qualified individuals and the results are examined by unbiased individuals.


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## arnisador (Oct 13, 2005)

Chiropractic may well be effective for more than that, but that's the only place it's been proven to be effective, I believe.

Sure, other things _could_ help...or, could hurt (if only be delaying someone from seeking proper medical attention). I have nothing against people using them, but I wish more federal research money was funneled into testing them!


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## Blindside (Oct 13, 2005)

> There are a ton of ailiments that herbology has no effectiveness over a placebo effect-anybody remember the claims for St john's Wart? or Shark Cartiledge?



Or echinacea?  Link to results of a double blind test of echinacea printed in New England Journal of Medicine.

One of my training partners is a supplement fiend, I swear that guy takes 20 pills a day.  Oddly enough, he is not notably more healthy than the rest of us. 

Lamont


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## The Kai (Oct 13, 2005)

Again a double blind test would be effective, usally alternative medicine beleivers want thier stuff tested on people that already believe in it!


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## Cryozombie (Oct 13, 2005)

So overall so far, Im getting 

Drugs = GOOD

Herbs = Eh, prolly not but who knows

and 

No, there is no real conspiracy.


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## Kenpodoc (Oct 13, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> So overall so far, Im getting
> 
> Drugs = GOOD
> 
> ...


I'd say

Drugs = Like all weapons good and bad but not intrinsically either. Potentially very good but need training to use well and just reading web blogs unlikely to be adequate.

Herbs = Potentially useful but rarely enough information available to make an informed decision.  Usually sold like McDojos sell martial arts.  Some herbal remedies when compared to RX drugs would be like comparing swords and sticks in the FMA, both effective but different.

and

No real conspiracy on the partof physicians.  The pharmaceutical industry is run by suits with reasons to cheat and lie but a significant amount of federal insight.  The herbal industry is run by entrapeneurs with reasons to cheat and lie and little federal oversight.  

My experience with the Herbal industry is that it is like Televangalism. Lots of good honest honorable people in the flock, frequently lots of unhappy needy people in the flock and some very manipulative money hungry non believers manipulating the flock.

Jeff


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## Kenpodoc (Oct 13, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Again a double blind test would be effective, usally alternative medicine beleivers want thier stuff tested on people that already believe in it!


A good idea but likely to dramatically cut the profit margin.  

Jeff


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 14, 2005)

mantis said:
			
		

> Not only do herbs work but pharamacutical companies do extract their forumlas out of natural components found in natural herbs.
> Chinese and Arabic medicine is not a lie or a joke, it has worked for a lone time. but the difference between today's medicine and that herbal medicine is that they used to eat the herb, drink it and so on, but now chemical formulas are extracted from it and mixed with other formulas, whether they are natural, herbal or industrial and packaged into nice packaging and sold.
> I also want to mention that old diseases were simpler than today's and that's because of pollution, adultry and other exessive practices
> Now, I am not only talking about herbs, but other resources like bee venom, viper venom (no, not the super-fast car!), and from other animals/insects.
> ...


Maybe it explains why the life expetency was 30 and never more than 50.  Magical thinking is no substitute for scientific understanding of disease and the effect of drugs.  

Old diseases were simpler than today, though...You got real sick, and died or you got better on your own.  Sometimes the real miracle was surviving the cure.  There were exceptions, but for the most part, it was all snake oil. 

With all this excessive "polution, adultry and excessive practices" human beings still out live our ancestors.  We must be doing something right.  I've lost count of the number of people who try to explain to me why there is more "cancer" today than in days gone by.  I always ask them how they know there was less cancer?  What really happened is people just didn't know what most cancer was and people just "died" of some unidentified illnesses.  

There seems to be a psychological phenomenon where humans seek to convince themselves that things are constantly getting worse.  That there was some "Golden Age" in the past when everything was really good, and that we are getting further away from it.  If things were so good then, we would have never changed.  Much (Not all) but much of the Herbal Medicine movement seems to be an attempt to return to this mythical age.


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## mantis (Oct 14, 2005)

you're only looking at europe when you talk about low expetency.
and that's because it was the dark ages for europe back then. but the case was different in south east asia, the middle east, and north africa.

"With all this excessive "polution, adultry and excessive practices" human beings still out live our ancestors. We must be doing something right. I've lost count of the number of people who try to explain to me why there is more "cancer" today than in days gone by. I always ask them how they know there was less cancer? What really happened is people just didn't know what most cancer was and people just "died" of some unidentified illnesses."
i think your argument here is reasonable enough.


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## Phoenix44 (Oct 14, 2005)

There probably IS more cancer today, relatively.  That's because, with the exception of some pediatric cancers, cancer takes a long time to develop.  If you die in infancy, or at a young age because of infection, or in childbirth due to puerperal sepsis, you won't be around long enough to get colon cancer or prostate cancer.

I use vitamins, herbal treatments and allopathic medicine.  The problem, I think, with most herbal treatments, is that no one tests them in a blinded manner.  Testing would make it more acceptable to physicians and skeptics.  It's not a doctors' conspiracy...it's just that most doctors won't prescribe something that hasn't been tested.


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## arnisador (Oct 14, 2005)

Yup...the longer you live, the mor elikely cancer becomes. It's been said that everyone would die of cancer if they lived long enough.

But, there are dietary and other issues that also affect the current rate.


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## mantis (Oct 14, 2005)

good point
coming back to natural therapy you will find that the black seed, honey, green tea, and other fruits help prevent cancer.
but who drinks/eats that stuff anymore? we eat cancer pills packaged in a "happy meal" McDonald wrap!


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## Phoenix44 (Oct 17, 2005)

If you want to swear off McDonald's, I suggest you read "Fast Food Nation," and see the movie "Supersize Me."  Even my kids won't go to McDonald's anymore.


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## JAMJTX (Oct 17, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> cinnamon for hypertension.


Cinnamon also helps regulate blood sugar, which is good for diabetics and even hypoglycemics.  I used to be hypoglycemic.  I also took chromium for blood sugar regulation.  So there are tretments for diabetes that are withheld by the drug companies that would otherwise cut deeply into thier profits.

When my cholestrol was not really high, but higher than it ever had been - my Dr just told me to get it down.  She did not want to use drugs since it was not "high" but she didn't want it to go higher.  I used herbal remedies to lower it.  This is how I learned that garlic was a natural blood thinner.  A lot of people take an expensive drug called kumudin to thin thier blood, garlic will do the same thing, as will reishi mushroom

Herbal remedies do work.  But you have to do your homework and be careful out there.


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## mantis (Oct 17, 2005)

i dont mean to post too much
but from what i can read i can tell that using herbs and natural therapy is mostly preventive and can get to some level of complexity whereas using more complicated chemical forumlas is believed to help cure problematic diseases and illnesses.
at least everyone seems to agree that herbs and natural fruits at least help you be healthier
which reminds me of an old saying we have back home: "eating one apple makes you not go to a doctor for a thousand days" 
(yes i do hate translating cultural stuff)


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## shesulsa (Oct 17, 2005)

I think that there are basic elements about our health that are generally ignored by allopathological physicians which, if monitored and cared for, could alter the course of our health dramatically.  Examples would be gut peptides and enzymes, salivary PH and stomach PH, proper balance of gut flora, hormone balances, metabolization of metals, digestive output.

 These are easy, easy, EASY to remedy and fairly inexpensive to test - certainly no more than a standard CBC and electrolyte panel.  They are also easy to balance through natural alternatives.

 But the MAJOR source of our health and recovery is right in front of us several times per day ... FOOD!!  And the major problem about this is that this is NOT CONSIDERED as a viable treatment for disease by doctors.  Sad.


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## arnisador (Oct 17, 2005)

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> If you want to swear off McDonald's, I suggest you read "Fast Food Nation," and see the movie "Supersize Me." Even my kids won't go to McDonald's anymore.


 It _almost_ worked on my kids...but Happy Meal toys won the younger one back, and the odler one tags along. The older one was really impressed by the movie and for a while it affected his habits.

 It's insidious.


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## arnisador (Oct 17, 2005)

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> Cinnamon also helps regulate blood sugar, which is good for diabetics and even hypoglycemics. I used to be hypoglycemic. I also took chromium for blood sugar regulation. So there are tretments for diabetes that are withheld by the drug companies that would otherwise cut deeply into thier profits.


 Eh, I don't think that anyone is withholding cinnamon.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 17, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> and stomach PH, proper balance of gut flora,


 Yeah you know, I read somewhere that people who take Antacid tablets daily for "Calcium" (like Tums) and for Daily control of heartburn are more likely to get ill from the foods they eat and are more likely to develop parasites... so Id say there may be somthing to that.


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## arnisador (Oct 18, 2005)

Yeah, a certain amount of stomach acid is good...too much can damage the esophagus, etc. There are so many options for controlling it medically nowadays, but diet can still have a big effect.


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## JAMJTX (Oct 18, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Eh, I don't think that anyone is withholding cinnamon.


No genius, but when was the last time you heard of a Dr. telling a patient to add cinnamon to thier diet in stead of selling them expensive insulin and repete office visits?  That will never happen.
The Drug Companies and the AMA still continue to tell the public that there is no cure for diabetes, when there is not only a cure sitting right in most people's pantry.  I know several people who have been cured of diabetes through diet, herbs and vitamin therapy.


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## Kenpodoc (Oct 18, 2005)

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> No genius, but when was the last time you heard of a Dr. telling a patient to add cinnamon to thier diet in stead of selling them expensive insulin and repete office visits?  That will never happen.
> The Drug Companies and the AMA still continue to tell the public that there is no cure for diabetes, when there is not only a cure sitting right in most people's pantry.  I know several people who have been cured of diabetes through diet, herbs and vitamin therapy.


Urban legend. I hear these claims but can never document them. It reminds me of the time my grandmother was cured of cancer. She was feeling bad and asked the church to pray for her. After awhile someone stood up and said they knew what was wrong and said that she had cancer. The congregation then prayed and she was cured of her cancer. She still tells people how prayer cured her cancer.

As to diet, Type II Diabetes is very diet dependent. Caloric restriction and weight loss can cure it and most doctors try very hard to get patients to go that root. Few patients are willing to take personal responsibility for their illness and force us to provide bandaids (i.e. insulin.) The vitamin industry tries to claim responsibility for the cure when it is really decreased caloric intake, decreased abdominal obesity and increased activity which is the cure. This is available to every Type II Diabetic for free but few make the changes. I tell everyone that I have good news and bad news. The good news is that their disease can be cured. The bad news is that only they can cure themselves and that it will take hard work and dilligence.

Type I Diabetes is a different animal. Type I Diabetics have no functioning endocrine activity in their pancreas and diet and cinnamon will kill these people. This can be quite dangerous and I've had personal experience with 2 patients who almost died trying to cure themselves with vitamins, herbs, diet and earnest but dangerous advisors. They approached it with a near religious fervor and only IV fluids insulin and a little luck saved their lives.

Doctors are plagued by several things that most vitamin pushers are not. Physicians are legally, ethically and morally responsible for those they care for. Most doctors have spent time with patients actively dying and they feel very responsible for their care even when things are not going well. In my experience even arrogant bad doctors feel this responsibility. For most doctors this is a very ijmportant part of their life and permeates every aspect of their day and their relationship to everyone including their family. It is an awesome responsibility and is good for society but I don't think it is good for the physicians and their family (Just unavoidable.)

Statements such as you make above about physicians ignoring a cure just sitting in their pantry are inflammatory with no basis in fact. The AMA like all organizations run by "Suits" is flawed but I don't believe they have any official position on the cure of Diabetes. The Medical profession actively promotes diet for Type II Diabetes. The Pharmaceutical companies are run by "suits" who drive BMWs and only care about the bottom line but are heavily regulated and unlikely to be successful without effective products. The scientists at the pharmaceutical companies care deeply about their work and want very much to improve the lives of others.  Most of the vitamin industry has substituted rhetoric and flash for careful work and the sense of responsibility necesary to improve lives.  Some do care but substitute philosophy and near religious fervor for facts and careful evaluation of the effectiveness of their ideology.

If you want to live longer eat less and get thinner. If you want to stay active and stay out of nursing homes, get fit. If you want to keep a sharp mind never quit thinking and keep learnig new things. Medicine as a profession understands this and preaches it but has little control over peoples individual choices. We are forced to use "high tech" bandaids and criticized when they are inadequate. Smokers and their families wonder why we cannot cure damaged lungs, fat inactive diabetics wonder why we can't cure thier diabetes and people with runny noses which will resolve on their own in 7-10 days want us to fix them instantly. Vitamins in general are just a distraction from the important message that health comes from limiting calories, adding vegetables to the diet, maintaining activity, playing, maintaing a social life, maintaining friendships, thinking and learning. Real long term health is personally driven.

Sorry about the rant,

Jeff


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## shesulsa (Oct 18, 2005)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Statements such as you make above about physicians ignoring a cure just sitting in their pantry are inflammatory with no basis in fact. The AMA like all organizations run by "Suits" is flawed but I don't believe they have any official position on the cure of Diabetes.
> 
> If you want to live longer eat less and get thinner. If you want to stay active and stay out of nursing homes, get fit. If you want to keep a sharp mind never quit thinking and keep learnig new things. Medicine as a profession understands this and preaches it but has little control over peoples individual choices. We are forced to use "high tech" bandaids and criticized when they are inadequate. Smokers and their families wonder why we cannot cure damaged lungs, fat inactive diabetics wonder why we can't cure thier diabetes and people with runny noses which will resolve on their own in 7-10 days want us to fix them instantly. Vitamins in general are just a distraction from the important message that health comes from limiting calories, adding vegetables to the diet, maintaining activity, playing, maintaing a social life, maintaining friendships, thinking and learning. Real long term health is personally driven.
> 
> ...


 Well, Jeff, I wanted to be a physician but as fate would have it ... I'm not one.  I respect the responsibilities of doctors, the efforts, the blood sweat and tears.  But I gotta say ... sorry, man, but I have an excellent example of the failure of western medicine to utilize diet as a major healing facter - the Ketogenic diet for epilipsy.  Studies have shown that 80% of children who have no success with prophylaxis therapy can be cured of epilepsy using this diet for a period of a little over a year, after such period can return to a normal diet.  Could you comment on this?


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## arnisador (Oct 18, 2005)

Do you have a cite?


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## shesulsa (Oct 18, 2005)

Here is a link to the first prospectus showing decrease in seizures - looking for an on-line reference for the cure factor. If I can't find it published on a webpage, I'll find the literature and post it.


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## shesulsa (Oct 18, 2005)

From the Stanford website:

http://www.stanford.edu/group/ketodiet/ketolit.html
*Recent Medical Literature on Ketogenic Diet*

   1. Prasad AN; Stafstrom CF; Holmes GL. Alternative epilepsy therapies: the ketogenic diet, immunoglobulins, and steroids. Epilepsia, 1996, 37 Suppl 1:S81-95. 

   2. Al-Mudallal AS; LaManna JC; Lust WD; Harik SI. Diet-induced ketosis does not cause cerebral acidosis. Epilepsia, 1996 Mar, 37(3):258-61. (UI: 96175188) 

   3. Wheless JW. The ketogenic diet: Fa(c)t or fiction [editorial]. Journal of Child Neurology, 1995 Nov, 10(6):419-23. Pub type: Editorial. (UI: 96155671) 

   4. Amari A; Grace NC; Fisher WW. Achieving and maintaining compliance with the ketogenic diet. Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis, 1995 Fall, 28(3):341-2. Pub type: Clinical Trial; Journal Article; Randomized Controlled Trial. (UI: 96004165) 

   5. Nebeling LC; Lerner E. Implementing a ketogenic diet based on medium-chain triglyceride oil in pediatric patients with cancer. Journal of the American Dietetic Association, 1995 Jun, 95(6):693-7. Pub type: Journal Article; Review; Review, Tutorial. (UI: 95279660) 

   6. Nebeling LC; Miraldi F; Shurin SB; Lerner E. Effects of a ketogenic diet on tumor metabolism and nutritional status in pediatric oncology patients: two case reports. Journal of the American College of Nutrition, 1995 Apr, 14(2):202-8. (UI: 95310706) 

   7. Kinsman SL; Vining EP; Quaskey SA; Mellits D; Freeman JM. Efficacy of the ketogenic diet for intractable seizure disorders: review of 58 cases. Epilepsia, 1992 Nov-Dec, 33(6):1132-6. (UI: 93099806)


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## shesulsa (Oct 18, 2005)

From the Epilepsy Action website:

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Seizure                control[/font]​ [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]at                6 months[/font]​ [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]at                12 months[/font]​ [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Number                initiating the diet: 150[/font]​ [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]over                90%[/font]​ [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]48                (31%)[/font]​ [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]41                (27%)[/font]​ [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]50-90%[/font]​ [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]29                (19%)[/font]​ [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]30                (20%)[/font]​ [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]under                50%[/font]​ [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]29                (19%)[/font]​ [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]8                (5%)[/font]​ [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Number                continuing the diet[/font]​ [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]106 (71%)[/font]​ [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]83                (55%)[/font]​


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## Kenpodoc (Oct 18, 2005)

Shelusa,

I'm not a neurologist but I'll try to respond. At the turn of the century epilepsy was treated with some success with enforced fasting. Unfortunately this cannot be done for long and has obvious draw backs.The ketogenic diet as such was first proposed and used in 1921 but was subsequently lost from favor due to the difficulty of the diet and the relative ease of newer medications.The diet is very difficult, heres a sample:

Sample Meal Pattern 
for an 8-year-old 24-kg child return to TOP
Divide fat, protein & carbohydrate into 3 equal meal 
Breakfast
90g 30% cream 
22g applesauce 
22g bacon 
10g puritan oil 
Lunch
90g 30% cream 
57g hot dog 
5g potato chips 
21g puritan oil 
Dinner
90g 30% cream 
44g sausage 
5g cashews 
25g puritan oil 

The diet is also not without side effects. Kidney stones, decreased growth, bone fractures, lipid abnormalities, loss of ability to participate with other children in parties, meals and other social activities. The enormously unpalatable diet may be its most daunting feature. Studies show that 50 %- 70%  develop fewer seizures and optimistically 30% become seizure free. Eventually 10% may become seizure free but these numbers are difficult and since some of pediatric seizure patients "grow out" of their seizures this is a difficult number to prove without large long term studies.  The benefit of the diet is the ability to get off sedating medications a problem which is more significant for some than others.

The diet returned to national attention in 1994 and is receiving appropriate respect in neurologic centers. Pediatric neurologists should at least be familiar with it. It has been harder to implement on a large scale than earlier optimistic expectations had hoped for.

I'm not saying that physicians are perfect, they certainly are of variable ability and not all equally care for their patients. I'm just saying that there is no grand conspiracy to make the drug companies wealthy and that physicians care about their patients and most of us stand by our patients to the very end. This physician patint relationship is what differenciates medicine from many of the alternative providers (not all.)

The quoted 80% cure rate has clearly not held up to scrutiny. Some nutritional faddists have claimed extremly high cure rates and that the diet works equally well on all seizure types.  This is clearly not true and further more has ignored the difficulty of the diet and the other medical side effects of the diet.

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## shesulsa (Oct 18, 2005)

This diet is VERY restrictive and VERY involved, though VERY successful.  When pediatric neurologists are asked why they don't prescribe this diet rather than going as far as recommending and performing hemispherectomy* is that the diet is inconvenient and dietary changes are not considered treatment for disease, rather they are considered to be an alternative therapy.

 *a hemispherectomy is where the half of the brain deemed responsible for most of the seizures is removed - much less successful than the Keto diet, yet recommended much more often, nonetheless.


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## shesulsa (Oct 18, 2005)

Kenpodoc, thanks for the productive exchange on this, and please understand I do not mean to be argumentative, rather I think it's important that we consider things like this.

 The other important factor to consider regarding the Keto diet is that it is a SHORT-TERM diet, relatively speaking.  Parents have to slave to this diet for at least one year, though every parent who has had a child successfully return on the other side swears every moment was worth it.  Which begs the question - are we really willing to be irresponsible with our health?

 It is my ... um ... not so humble opinion that we as citizens need to educate ourselves FAR MORE than we already do on the benefits of dietary and lifestyle choices, REALISTIC alternatives for maintaining and recovering health WITHIN REASON and know when a doctor can really help.  I'd also say we need to make more use of nutritionists and physical therapists in our lives which could prevent a lot of unnecessary prophylaxis, surgery, pain and disease.

 FWIW,
 G


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## Kenpodoc (Oct 18, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> This diet is VERY restrictive and VERY involved, though VERY successful.  When pediatric neurologists are asked why they don't prescribe this diet rather than going as far as recommending and performing hemispherectomy* is that the diet is inconvenient and dietary changes are not considered treatment for disease, rather they are considered to be an alternative therapy.
> 
> *a hemispherectomy is where the half of the brain deemed responsible for most of the seizures is removed - much less successful than the Keto diet, yet recommended much more often, nonetheless.


If the alternative is a hemispherectomy the decision is a no brainer  . I certainly would choose the diet before the surgery but i've never seen the surgery recomended in anyone I cared for.  I have a very difficult time getting parents with 150 lb 8 year olds to take the potato chips out of the house, in my average patient this diet will be near impossible.  I do agree that people have to take more responsibility for their health, I can advise healthy changes but have very little control over patient choices.

Jeff


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## Kenpodoc (Oct 18, 2005)

Shelusa,
I just realized that my response may look insensitive please know it's not meant that way. A hemispherectomy is an extreme solution and to me a horrible choice to be given I don't personally deal with such extreme cases but cannot imagine why the diet wouldn't be done before considering such an irreversible and drastic solution. No need to tell me but you are clearly more knowlegable about this subject than I am, may I ask how you became so well educated on this subject? 

Jeff


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## arnisador (Oct 18, 2005)

Looking at how hard it is to get people to take prescribed meds., and to stay on a healthy diet even when it's clear their health depends on it, I'm not surprised to learn that it's hard to get people to stick to this diet even though the importance would be obvious. How many people have been tol dto eat right by their physicians because of heart disease that is already present? How many do? For whatever reason, compliance remains a big issue.


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## Kenpodoc (Oct 18, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Looking at how hard it is to get people to take prescribed meds., and to stay on a healthy diet even when it's clear their health depends on it, I'm not surprised to learn that it's hard to get people to stick to this diet even though the importance would be obvious. How many people have been tol dto eat right by their physicians because of heart disease that is already present? How many do? For whatever reason, compliance remains a big issue.


It's always a problem. Incidently, I don't use the word compliance. I use adherance. I know it's semantics but compliance implies that the patient has an obligation to follow my advice.  Adherance doesn't imply moral obligation and just is a statement about whether the treatment plan has been followed. It's my job to work with the patient to find a way to help them feel better, be healthier or both. I offer advice. It's their job to choose if they choose to follow my advice.  I tell patients to find a doctor they trust and to listen and work with them.  If they can't follow the advice they've been given go back and discuss why and either change the objectives of therapy or look for a new way to approach the problem. If they still can't follow the advice they've been given, re evaluate if they trust this doctor.

Jeff


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## shesulsa (Oct 18, 2005)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Shelusa,
> I just realized that my response may look insensitive please know it's not meant that way. A hemispherectomy is an extreme solution and to me a horrible choice to be given I don't personally deal with such extreme cases but cannot imagine why the diet wouldn't be done before considering such an irreversible and drastic solution. No need to tell me but you are clearly more knowlegable about this subject than I am, may I ask how you became so well educated on this subject?
> 
> Jeff


 Hey, KDoc - nope, I almost posted a laughing man in response to your post but was trying to be sensitive to other members.  And I agree that hemispherectomy is an extreme solution, i.e. it is to me as well.  As for my knowledge on the subject ... well, when you're presented with a mystery and you're grabbing at straws, you examine every straw to it's fullest extent and beyond.  My son was diagnosed with atypical autism (my dx would be mild CP with atypical autism affects with possible epilepsy) which is a mystery that at the time even the "experts" were giving limited promise to.  No offense, Doc, but there really hasn't been a doctor who has done much for my son - it's been my own research and careful alterations to diet and supplementation along with my own kind of behavioral therapy that has gotten him where he is now.  I've done ... LOL ... a little reading ... LOL!


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## TonyM. (Oct 18, 2005)

I feel for you Shesulsa. I've had Aspergers' syndrome since I was a young child and certainly could not have been a picnic to grow up with. With me the worst part (in my opinion) is the motor, spacial and visual hyperlexia. The tourettes is a close second but I've overcome that for the most part with word substitution.
I'm very thankful I grew up when I did as There was no diagnosis for ADHD or Aspergers' at the time so I was never treated.
Most people are shocked when I tell them I have Aspergers'. They universally say that they had no idea their was anything "wrong" with me. I usually have to dust off my speed reading or photographic memory or internal math skills to prove it.
Overall I would have to say that substituting behaviors has been my most useful tool, ie. For the most part flapping and rocking have been replaced by drumming and dance. And all you have to do is add proffessional gear and climbing becomes appropreate.
On the ketogenic diet. I discovered this by accident at age twelve when I finally put together that sugar was making me sick and cut out all sugar, milk and way back on the starch. That year I had my last seisure to date and made it all the way through high school without missing a day out sick.


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## Phoenix44 (Oct 20, 2005)

Got to agree with Kenpodoc. People rarely want to be responsible for their own health, really, or even their children's. Especially if it requires any amount of thought or inconvenience.

21% of 4 year olds registering for kindergarten in NYC are obese. Not chubby, OBESE! 61% of American adults are overweight or obese. People would rather have a gastric bypass operation than go on a reasonable regimen of diet and exercise.

Geez, you can't even get reasonably intelligent people to quit McDonalds!


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## Kenpodoc (Oct 21, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Hey, KDoc - nope, I almost posted a laughing man in response to your post but was trying to be sensitive to other members.  And I agree that hemispherectomy is an extreme solution, i.e. it is to me as well.  As for my knowledge on the subject ... well, when you're presented with a mystery and you're grabbing at straws, you examine every straw to it's fullest extent and beyond.  My son was diagnosed with atypical autism (my dx would be mild CP with atypical autism affects with possible epilepsy) which is a mystery that at the time even the "experts" were giving limited promise to.  No offense, Doc, but there really hasn't been a doctor who has done much for my son - it's been my own research and careful alterations to diet and supplementation along with my own kind of behavioral therapy that has gotten him where he is now.  I've done ... LOL ... a little reading ... LOL!


Sounds like your son picked the right mother.  Without having met him, it sounds as if your diagnosis is a good working diagnosis. The problem is that the autism spectrum is probably a mixed group of disorders under a single name which makes treating and research difficult. Some with autistic diagnosis clearly respond to diet but it's difficult to pick the right diet and it takes a little luck and good observant involved parents.  Diet also doesn't always work, so it's a difficult connundrum.  I agree that doctors are unlikely to do much because we don't have a cure and the sympomatic treatment we offer is mixed at best. The problem I see is that fearful, earnest parents can become the victims of unscrupulous alternative providers. I find that there is no one right answer for chilren such as your son and that it is often difficult to find a caring medical partner in the search for an individuals best therapy. Consistant behavioral therapy such as you talk to has in my experience been the best available option but it can be emotionally and physically draining.

respectfully,

Jeff


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## shesulsa (Oct 21, 2005)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Sounds like your son picked the right mother. Without having met him, it sounds as if your diagnosis is a good working diagnosis. The problem is that the autism spectrum is probably a mixed group of disorders under a single name which makes treating and research difficult. Some with autistic diagnosis clearly respond to diet but it's difficult to pick the right diet and it takes a little luck and good observant involved parents. Diet also doesn't always work, so it's a difficult connundrum. I agree that doctors are unlikely to do much because we don't have a cure and the sympomatic treatment we offer is mixed at best. The problem I see is that fearful, earnest parents can become the victims of unscrupulous alternative providers. I find that there is no one right answer for chilren such as your son and that it is often difficult to find a caring medical partner in the search for an individuals best therapy. Consistant behavioral therapy such as you talk to has in my experience been the best available option but it can be emotionally and physically draining.


 Good post and I wholeheartedly agree.  It is indeed a difficult connundrum for all of us when there are other available remedies than chemicals and surgery but so few willing to commit to any kind of healing for themselves or their children.  The saddest part of all is that is often seems like no big deal until it happens to the individual - then it's huge.  

 Here's another one:  the herb chickweed is an excellent remedy for skin ailments and viruses such as varicella.  My older children came down with healthy cases of chickenpox.  I had this nasty illness for three weeks as a child (i.e. blisters and a second and third round of blisters).  I was advised of chickweed by a naturalist.  I steeped the bulk herb in hot water for 30 minutes and poured it into a shallow bath which one child played in.  They drank fresh chickweed tea sweetened with apple juice and I dabbed more tea directly onto the blisters (this is during day two of outbreak) - they were crusted within 24 hours, scabs gone within an additional 24.  My son's outbreak lasted four days, my daughter's five.  Calamine lotion can't touch that.  They had very little itching, fever was reduced and they have full immunity.  Anyone I recommended the external use of the herb to has always had great results.


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## Jonathan Randall (Oct 21, 2005)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> If you want to live longer eat less and get thinner. If you want to stay active and stay out of nursing homes, get fit. If you want to keep a sharp mind never quit thinking and keep learnig new things. Medicine as a profession understands this and preaches it but has little control over peoples individual choices. We are forced to use "high tech" bandaids and criticized when they are inadequate. Smokers and their families wonder why we cannot cure damaged lungs, fat inactive diabetics wonder why we can't cure thier diabetes and people with runny noses which will resolve on their own in 7-10 days want us to fix them instantly. Vitamins in general are just a distraction from the important message that health comes from limiting calories, adding vegetables to the diet, maintaining activity, playing, maintaing a social life, maintaining friendships, thinking and learning. Real long term health is personally driven.
> 
> Sorry about the rant,
> 
> Jeff


Don't be; your post contained some GREAT ADVICE. I noticed an INSTANT improvement in my health and mental well being when I exchanged the nightly chips and dips for tomatoes and other vegetables and fruits and set up my Wavemaster near my bed so that I would get a few extra "unscheduled" workouts each week. It's worked. I do read a lot about vitamins, other supplements, and alternative therapies. Many have merit, but I also don't hesitate to consult with and take advice from LICENSED PHYSICIANS. Last year when I had severe kidney stones, no amount of vitamin therapy would have helped. I would have liked to have tried Shesulsa's remedy for chickenpox, though.

One area where I think supplements are great are mood stabilizers such as valerian root and kava - of course they shouldn't replace professional help for the seriously afflicted. Sure, I know about the "kava scare"; however, IIRC, the number of problems with kava are dwarfed by the side effects some suffer from common aspirin. Also, the pills sold were 300 mg. each - with a recommended dosage of 3 tablets up to three times daily to a possible dialy dosage of 2700 mg. The islanders who made Kava tea, IIRC, used 50 milligrams, not 2700!

I also think glucosamine is a great supplement, although I suspect the "recommended dosage" on the packages are probably high.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 21, 2005)

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> 21% of 4 year olds registering for kindergarten in NYC are obese. Not chubby, OBESE! 61% of American adults are overweight or obese. People would rather have a gastric bypass operation than go on a reasonable regimen of diet and exercise.


 Yeah but you know what?  By GOVERNMENT standards *I* am obese.

 Yet, my doctor told me NOT to try and get down to that target weight, as he is of the opinion that I would be "underweight" if I did.  He gave me a target weight that he feels is closer to appropriate for, well, me... and that # just makes me overweight, not obese.  That number is also 20 lbs heavier tha the GVT sais I should be.

 So... those stats... *shrug* Maybe yes, maybe no.


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