# So what exactly IS a Taeguek anyway?



## Gemini

In class tonight, we got into a discussion regarding the Taeguek forms. It's not something we normally do, because all the students being different levels, aren't at the point where they follow such things. Tonight was all 2nd dans and a high colored belt. Specialty class! I love 'em.

So as we're going through the forms, I realized I had no idea what a Taeguek was (besides the name of a form), so I asked. Here's the short version of what I learned. Anyone that can chip in or redirect, please feel free to do so.

A Taeguek is a symbol on the Korean flag. We all know the four symbols (or if not, just ask), but what I didn't know was that there are 16 Taegueks in all. Three in between each one on the Korean flag. So then I ask "If those are Taegueks, what's a Palgwe?" 

There are 8 Palgwe symbols. (Not talking forms here). Each Taeguek is made up of varying combinations of the 8 Palgwe's.

So where we left off and I don't have answers for yet. 
1. What is the name of each of the eight Palgwe symbols?
2. What are the names of the other 12 Taegueks not portrayed on the Korean flag?
3. Which Palgwe's make up each Taeguek?

If anyone knows, please clarify.

Thanks,


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## bignick

http://www.natkd.com/palgawe.htm

Has the 8 palgwe's and their corresponding meaning, along with what pattern they represent.
(Heaven, Lake, Fire, Thunder, Wind, Water, Mountain, Earth)


You're on your own for the taegueks


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## Martial Tucker

bignick said:
			
		

> http://www.natkd.com/palgawe.htm
> 
> Has the 8 palgwe's and their corresponding meaning, along with what pattern they represent.
> (Heaven, Lake, Fire, Thunder, Wind, Water, Mountain, Earth)
> 
> 
> You're on your own for the taegueks


It's the same for the Taeguks and the Palgues. I think you are confusing the terms: Taeguk and Trigram. The Taeguk is actually a reference to the Yin/Yang symbol on the Korean flag. It is surrounded by four trigrams, which represent Heaven, Earth, Fire, and Water. These trigrams come from the ancient I Ching. There are 8 trigrams in total. Similarly, there are 8 poomse in each of the Taeguk and Palgue groups that each have a trigram assigned to them with a name/philosophy. I was going to post more detail, but BigNick's link says it all. Another excellent resource is the book: Taekwondo, Ancient Wisdom for the Modern Warrior.
Author: Doug Cook.

Because the Palgue forms are older, with a heavy drawing from the Japanese shotokan forms, I think the newer Taeguks were named after the Yin/Yang symbol on the Korean flag to more solidly identify that set of poomse with the Korean nation/tradition.


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## Miles

From the Kukkiwon website (and textbook):

"Taegeuk is a symbol representing the principles of the cosmos creation and the norms of human life. The circumference of the Taegeuk mark symbolizes infinity and the two parts, red and blue, inside the circle symbolize yin(negative) and yang(positive), which look like rotating all the time. Therefore, Taegeuk is the light which is the unified core of the cosmos and human life and its boundlessness signifies energy and the source of life. The yin and yang represents the development of the cosmos and human life and the oneness of symmetrical halves, such as negative and positive, hardness and softness, and materials and anti-materials. The eight bar-signs (called kwae) outside the circle are so arranged to go along with the Taegeuk in an orderly system. One bar means the yang and two bars the yin, both representing the creation of harmonization with the basic principles of all cosmos phenomena. The Taegeuk, infinity and yin-yang are the three elements constituting the philosophical trinity as mentioned in the Samil Sinko, the Scripture of Korean race."


Miles


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## Gemini

Hmm. Don't think we're on the same page here. This question has absolutely nothing to do with forms (poomses). For the purposes of this question, forget the forms, I'm talking about the actual entity of Palgwe's and Taegueks. Palgwe's, configured in a certain way, make up each Taeguek symbol. (He was very clear about this). So if a Taeguek (what you're calling trigram) is say, water, there are certain Palgwes arranged in a certain order that make up that Taeguek symbol. He referred to them somewhat like Taro cards. Each card in itself only has a general meaning, but arranged in a certain order, mean something much more specific. But given it's his native country, I doubt that he's confused about Taegueks and trigrams. Also when I said there must be 8 Taegueks, he said no. There are 16. Four of which are shown on the flag and 12 more that are not.

I appreciate the input, but I think it's me who's failing to make my question clear. I seem to have learned just enough to be dangerous. I'm going to bed. I'll readdress this in the morning with a clearer head.

Again, thank you all for the input.


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## Gemini

Miles said:
			
		

> From the Kukkiwon website (and textbook):
> 
> "Taegeuk is a symbol representing the principles of the cosmos creation and the norms of human life. The circumference of the Taegeuk mark symbolizes infinity and the two parts, red and blue, inside the circle symbolize yin(negative) and yang(positive), which look like rotating all the time. Therefore, Taegeuk is the light which is the unified core of the cosmos and human life and its boundlessness signifies energy and the source of life. The yin and yang represents the development of the cosmos and human life and the oneness of symmetrical halves, such as negative and positive, hardness and softness, and materials and anti-materials. The eight bar-signs (called kwae) outside the circle are so arranged to go along with the Taegeuk in an orderly system. One bar means the yang and two bars the yin, both representing the creation of harmonization with the basic principles of all cosmos phenomena. The Taegeuk, infinity and yin-yang are the three elements constituting the philosophical trinity as mentioned in the Samil Sinko, the Scripture of Korean race."
> 
> 
> Miles


Sorry Miles. I didn't even see this reply. I have the book at work, so I'll check it out tomorrow. Now this really is getting confusing. What are the eight barsigns. There are only four on the flag and he's says there are 16. Language barrier? I dunno.


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## Martial Tucker

To my knowledge, there are only 8 "bar signs"/trigrams. In the I Ching, to use these in a manner similar to Tarot cards, you pair 1 trigram with another randomly to signify a meaning. Because there are 8 trigrams, there are 8 X 8, or 64 different possible outcomes from this. As Miles indicated, the single long bar in a trigram represents "yang", and the two short bars "yin". This gives 2 possibilities for each line. Because there are 3 lines in a trigram, the total number of trigrams possible would be 2 to the 3rd power, or 8.


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## Miles

Yes, the 8 Bar Signs are the "Pal" (i.e. 8) Gwe.

Miles


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## MSUTKD

Hi all.  Peter Miles knows what he is talking about.  This might help.

http://www.msu.edu/~taekwon/Class%20Poomse.pdf


ron
http://www.msu.edu/~taekwon/Class%Poomse.pdf


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## Gemini

MSUTKD said:
			
		

> Hi all. Peter Miles knows what he is talking about. This might help.
> 
> http://www.msu.edu/~taekwon/Class%20Poomse.pdf
> 
> 
> ron


 
He always does. He's a great source of information and I was counting on him to jump in here. Not to disclude anyone else who chimed in. All responses, as always are appreciated. Thanks for the link. I just took a quick glance at it and it appears to be just what I was looking for.


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## Miles

Gemini said:
			
		

> He always does. He's a great source of information and I was counting on him to jump in here. Not to disclude anyone else who chimed in. All responses, as always are appreciated. Thanks for the link. I just took a quick glance at it and it appears to be just what I was looking for.


 
Thanks Gemini, but Ron is an awesome source of info for TKD (and kendo).  He is a gentleman and a scholar as amply demonstrated in his writings.

Miles


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## Gemini

Miles said:
			
		

> Thanks Gemini, but Ron is an awesome source of info for TKD (and kendo). He is a gentleman and a scholar as amply demonstrated in his writings.
> 
> Miles


 
Then I'm glad he's joined us also. We seem to be increasing the amount of truly knowledgable people in this forum, which is great because I'm an inquisitive person and there's so much I don't know.

Everything submitted here makes good sense to me, but in cross referencing it to what my Sabumnim told me, it doesn't line up. In all fairness though, it does usually take a few conversations on any given topic to understand each other due to the language barrier. He's an extremely intelligent individual and certainly knows his history, but often times things get lost in the translation which can get very frustrating for both of us. I'm going to bring it up again tonight after class.

Thanks again, all!


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## Last Fearner

Gemini said:
			
		

> Then I'm glad he's joined us also. We seem to be increasing the amount of truly knowledgable people in this forum, which is great because I'm an inquisitive person and there's so much I don't know.
> 
> Everything submitted here makes good sense to me, but in cross referencing it to what my Sabumnim told me, it doesn't line up.


 
Yes, there are many knowledgable people here and they have all given very excellent answers and useful links. I read this thread a while back, and felt the above answers and links sufficiently covered the subject so I did not reply. However, at the request of Gemini in a PM to me, I will add a few of my own thoughts. (please excuse the fact that some of this has already been stated).

To further my understanding of the Palgwe symbols and the philosophy of the Taegeuk, many years ago, I began reading the "I Ching - The Book of Changes and the Unchanging Truth" by Hua-Ching Ni (published by Shrine of the Eternal Breath of Tao, Santa Monica, CA, 2nd edition 1990). This book is a very insightful modern translation of the original writings of the I Ching (pronounced EE Cheeng). Although this is of Chinese origin, I am told that every child in Korea is instructed to read, and study the I Ching.

To my knowledge, everything in the Korean philosophy of "Taegeuk," "Um and Yang," and the Palgwe (8 three-lined diagrams or 64 hexagrams) is borrowed from the I Ching. I am not aware of any additional diagrams, although the I Ching philosophy covers a variety of numbers in nature and can be blended to represent virtually any number (IE: ten celestial phases, 12 terrestrial branches, etc.).

"Taegeuk" is a Korean word that is represented by the red and blue symbol on the Korean flag, which is identical in meaning to the black and white "Tai Chi Tu" of the I Ching. Each of these circles has three aspects: Yang - the bright side (Chinese as white; Korean as red. The color red is "hong"), the Yin - dark side (Chinese as black; Korean as blue. The color blue is "chung" but "yin" is called "um"), and the circle representing their integration. In this context, the Korean word "Tae" means "bigness," and "Geuk" means "eternity." The Taegeuk symbol represents the essence of everything, and nothing in the universe is left out of this philosophy. Although there are many symbols to represent "um" and "yang," there is only one Taegeuk symbol - the circle.

Some of the beginning teachings of this philosphy in the I Ching shows the positive force (yang) as a solid line, and the negative force (yin, or um) as a broken line (represented by two short lines). Not everything in our lives is "black and white," or "yes and no." There are varying degrees of urgency, priority, adversity, and other forces of nature. Thus, two solid lines are stacked to show full yang, two sets of broken lines show full yin, a solid over a broken shows "lesser yang," and a broken over a solid shows "lesser yin." 

The 8 natural forces are represented by the 8 trigrams (3 lined diagrams or "palgwe"). Although these are commonly known by name, they represent much more. They can also represent the 8 directions of the compass, the phases of the moon, the cycle of seasons, astrology, and every aspect of human life.

There are only four of the trigrams shown on the Korean Flag (Heaven / South, Earth / North, Fire / East, and Water / West). There are a total of 8 trigrams. The meaning of each trigram shape changes as the solid or broken lines are stacked in a specific order. I have never heard of any trigrams being arranged to create similar "Taegeuk" diagrams. The palgwe are the 8 trigrams of the I Ching, and they can be stacked to represent the 64 hexagrams - each with their own new meaning.

A detailed description of what each trigram represents would take up too much space here, and is covered rather well in the links provided by others, and in the "Book of Changes." If I have missed anything important here, or anyone has contrary information, please post it so I can research further.

Thank you,
Sr. Master Eisenhart


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## Gemini

I spent a great deal of time going over the responses of Miles, Martial Tucker and others, then cross referenced that with what my sabumnim explained to me. It didn't make sense for some time, but when dealing with a language barrier, sometimes "creative thinking" is in order to understand and this proved to be such a case. Ultimately, I found they were pretty much saying the same thing, just in two different ways. I did PM SM Eisenhart, because in the short time he's been here, I found his reasoning and responses to be viable and easy to digest and requested his input here. There can never be too many good sources of information, and when the opportunity to pick such brains arises, only a fool wouldn't take advantage of it.

As my training incorporates more philisophical and historical aspects of the art, I'm sure I'm going to be throwing more and more questions such as this out there. It's nice to know such knowledgable folks are here and willing to help.

Thank you all very much!


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## Last Fearner

Thank you for asking, Gemini, and continuing to seek knowledge from all sources. To the others here, I hope I did not present my post in the wrong light by implying that Gemini was seeking a better answer. My response was, of course, no more qualified than the anyone elses here, and that did not appear to be Gemini's intent in asking me to contribute. I did not want the other experts to think I was posting to correct their response. I felt that Gemini was just looking for everyone's opinions and input to see if there was a different perspective, or way of presenting it that might shed a new light upon that which we all agree.


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## Martial Tucker

Last Fearner said:
			
		

> Thank you for asking, Gemini, and continuing to seek knowledge from all sources. To the others here, I hope I did not present my post in the wrong light by implying that Gemini was seeking a better answer. My response was, of course, no more qualified than the anyone elses here, and that did not appear to be Gemini's intent in asking me to contribute. I did not want the other experts to think I was posting to correct their response. I felt that Gemini was just looking for everyone's opinions and input to see if there was a different perspective, or way of presenting it that might shed a new light upon that which we all agree.


No problem here.......actually, I think it's always nice to have my thoughts essentially confirmed by someone senior to me. It's not like this stuff is all totally "black and white".  :asian:


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## Kuk Sa Nim

Greetings gentlemen,

Not to beat a dead horse, but I thought I'd add a couple more rays of light on the subject.

Let me say that all of these posts are right on target. They are all covering the same subject from different angles, but the basic information is in fact all here. I can totally relate to the language problems as I had my fair share with my various Korean instructors. Especially while living in Korea. 

What I will add is that, as Sr. Master Eisenhart put so well, the fountain of this philosophy comes from the Chinese Yin-Yang / I Ching knowledge. The basic terms we see in Korean are virtual translations from their Chinese counterparts. Such as:

Tae Guk = Tai Chi = Grand Ultimate
Umm / Yang = Yin / Yang = Soft / Hard, (Heaven / Earth, etc.)

By studying many of the Chinese classics such as the I Ching, and the Tao Te Ching, etc. one can begin to really make sense of the many philosophical components of our Korean martial arts.

Lastly, it might also be useful to understand that the Umm / Yang philosophy goes beyond the "opposites as part of the one" aspect and Umm / Yang are comprised of three elements each. They are:

Umm
- Yu (Soft, Yielding)
- Won (Circular, Flowing)
- Hap (To Unite, Bring Together)

Yang
- Kang (Hard, Unyielding)
- Kok (Linear, Angular)
- Kan (To Separate, Keep Apart)

As one can see, they are reciprocal to each other in terms of components of the two Umm / Yang elements. If you can imagine a "hard technique" and a similar "soft technique" you will see their correlations manifest in a tangible manner.

For example, take a punch defense.

Hard technique (Such as a common TKD move): Middle block, reverse punch to ribs (most likely followed by a foot sweep and stomp or down punch, etc). The block is hard and angular, the contact causes space, and the punch can crack the ribs. Think of a hard ball bullet.

Soft technique (Such as a common HKD move): Inward parry, circle hand, trap, counter palm to ribs (most likely followed with an outside wrist lock, throw, lock up, etc) The parry is soft and circular and causes a joining of opponents, the wrist is held and controlled, the palm strike will attack an internal organ, and the energy will blow out the rear. Think of a hollow point bullet.

In this way a more full understanding of the Umm / Yang concept and it's applications to our martial art(s) and the actual techniques will begin to unfold. 

Hope this helps.
With brotherhood,
Grand Master De Alba


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## Gemini

Okay, that's it! I'm printing this entire thread out and saving it to my hard drive because it contains WAY to much valuable information to be forgotten in the old archives.  You guys rock!


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## DuneViking

Gemini said:
			
		

> In class tonight, we got into a discussion regarding the Taeguek forms. It's not something we normally do, because all the students being different levels, aren't at the point where they follow such things. Tonight was all 2nd dans and a high colored belt. Specialty class! I love 'em.
> 
> So as we're going through the forms, I realized I had no idea what a Taeguek was (besides the name of a form), so I asked. Here's the short version of what I learned. Anyone that can chip in or redirect, please feel free to do so.
> 
> A Taeguek is a symbol on the Korean flag. We all know the four symbols (or if not, just ask), but what I didn't know was that there are 16 Taegueks in all. Three in between each one on the Korean flag. So then I ask "If those are Taegueks, what's a Palgwe?"
> 
> There are 8 Palgwe symbols. (Not talking forms here). Each Taeguek is made up of varying combinations of the 8 Palgwe's.
> 
> So where we left off and I don't have answers for yet.
> 1. What is the name of each of the eight Palgwe symbols?
> 2. What are the names of the other 12 Taegueks not portrayed on the Korean flag?
> 3. Which Palgwe's make up each Taeguek?
> 
> If anyone knows, please clarify.
> 
> Thanks,


 
Loosely translated, the Palgwes are the "Forms of the 8 symbols" each is represented by a trigram (the 3 barred symbols on each corner of the Korean flag) 
Il=Keon or Heavens
___
___
___

Ee=Tae or Joyfulness
_ _
___
___

Som=Ri or Fire
___
_ _
___

Sa=Jin or Thunder
_ _
_ _
___

Oh=Seon or Wind
___
___
_ _

Yuk=Gam or Water
_ _
___
_ _

Chil=Gan or Top Stop (Mountain?)
___
_ _
_ _

Pal=Gon or Earth
_ _
_ _
_ _

There is also a complimentary pairing, 1-8, 2-7, 3-6, 4,5. Viewing the trigrams for this pairing yeilds representative harmony, Heaven and Earth, fire and water etc. As stated earlier, these trigrams are also used in the taegeuk forms. Hope this helps


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## Miles

Lots of good stuff in this thread folks!

Thanks for sharing!

Miles


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## matt.m

What an interesting lesson.  Thank you for all the neat information.


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## Payne

so to recap, 8 taegeuk forms, 8 palgue forms, 8 trigrams, thats a lot of eights. Then 9 black belt forms. I wonder why they broke the line


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## Shaderon

MSUTKD said:


> Hi all. Peter Miles knows what he is talking about. This might help.
> 
> http://www.msu.edu/~taekwon/Class Poomse.pdf
> 
> 
> ron


 

Slightly differnt names from frm those I know.

I have

1. Ch'ien  (three long bars)
2. K'un    (three broken bars)
3. Chen   (one long bar underneath two broken bars)
4. Sun     (one broken bar underneath two long bars)
5. K'an    (one long bar between two broken bars)
6. Li       (one broken bar in between 2 long bars)
7. Ken    (one long bar above two broken bars)
8. Tui      (one broken bar above 2 long bars)

Maybe it's a language or dialect difference, the names themselves I din't think matter that much.

Major Yang Trigrams
Ch'ien (Heaven) and Tui (Marsh)

Minor Yin Trigrams
Chen (Thunder) and Li (Fire)

Major Yin Trigrams
K'un (Earth) and Ken (Mountain)

Minor Yan Trigrams
K'an (Water) and Sun (Wind)

The Trigrams are paired up as upper and lower trigrams as the person doing the reading throws them (sometimes done with Yarrow sticks or coins) and make Hexagrams.  There are 64 hexagrams and it takes practice to read them as they can be quite er... poetic? lol

For instance if we take Hexagram one which is Ch'ien and Ch'ien (thrown twice) the meaning of that is.

Sublime success through perseverance
As creative power permeates all heaven
By clouds and rain all beings attain form
So the great man sees, with great clarity, causes and effects.
By persevering does he complete things in thier due time,
Each end is a new beginning.

the interpretation for that goes kinda like...  Don't try and push for things to happen before they are ready, everything has it's time and patience must be used.  Don't worry about things changing, each thing that ends also shows a new beginning.  Doors not only let you out of a place, they also let you into another.

I studied a little.


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## Errant108

You're using Wade-Giles transliterations of Mandarin Chinese.

The rest of the posters in this thread are using various transliteration systems for Korean, since we are discussing Korean martial arts.  That's where the differences come from.


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## Shaderon

Errant108 said:


> You're using Wade-Giles transliterations of Mandarin Chinese.
> 
> The rest of the posters in this thread are using various transliteration systems for Korean, since we are discussing Korean martial arts. That's where the differences come from.


 
Ah thank you, i knew there must be an explantion.  It's gotta mean the same thing though and the concept is the same.

The Trigrams converted into hexagrams is used as a tool for divination and expressing philosophy.  It is written in the "Book of Changes" in the east.  Many people suggest it originated in China but I don't personally know that.


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## Errant108

It's a bit more complicated than that.

The Taegeuk & Palgwe sets aren't derived from the _Yijing_, but a later work called the _Zhouyi_.  The _Zhouyi_ was a primary influence for Baguazhang, the Chinese martial system, and when these new Taegwondo forms were being created to do away with the Shotokan forms, this was what the Kukkiwon looked to.  There is actual an entire lineage of Baguazhang traced through Korea to modern times.

Each trigram is also associated with an animal and an individual fighting strategy, however, these do not come through in either the Palgwe or Taegeuk sets.  The creators of these forms, a committee of masters who had only trained in what is now considered "elementary school karate", did not have the training in form applications to be able to actual create something with an inherent fighting strategy.

Qian = Lion
Kun = Lin (The Chinese unicorn-dragon)
Kan = Snake
Li = Hawk
Zhen = Dragon
Gen = Bear
Xun = Phoenix
Dui = Monkey


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## Master Dan

*PHILOSOPHY*​*OF THE TAEGEUK FORMS*

 From Master Dan

*To my students realize that your movements are more that just punches and kicks. *

Taegeuk forms are representation of the Tae Kwon Do system of martial arts. They include all the movements that you must learn on your journey to 1st Dan black belt.
Also they include mental aspirations or what you should be thinking of when performing these forms. These thoughts go beyond that of who is attacking me from where and how should I respond. 

All Martial art styles including any of the heavy contact sports are simulating life and death struggle. Even though death does not occur as a rule during practice or competition the fact remains that the practitioner comes away with a feeling of heightened awareness related to life and death. Over time as a person matures they cannot escape the contemplation of what is the meaning of life. 

There have of course been many books written over the ages regarding the meaning of life. In Asia one of the leading books from the 13th century B.C. is the Jooyeok, Book of Changes. This book is the work of several Chinese philosophers for a period of several hundred years. One of these was Fuh Hi, the original author of the Book of Changes, who identified eight combinations of positive and negative forces.

Please study the graphic diagram of Yin and Yang. This symbol is familar to most of us as the opposing or balance of positive and negative force or a balance between good and evil. Some would even call this a constant battle with never ending conflict and change.
The Koreans call this um and yang. Fuh Hi decided that these forces combine in a harmonious relationship all dependant on each other in a continuous circle representing  the symbol of life and the universe. These eight symbols or concepts are part of everything we have and know past present and future.

In all literature through out the ages you will always see the identification of two opposing forces however they are dependent on each for their existence or you cannot have one with out the other. Example, (mixing paint) you need different variations of black and white to get the required result of color that you need. Each combination has its own useful color that you may desire to have at that moment.

The eight symbols arrange themselves starting with 1. being the pure form of Yin or all white as if on a color chart and 8. the pure form of Yang or all black. All numbers or symbols in between are the result of combining greater or lesser portions of Yin and Yang in combination.






*PHILOSOPHY OF TAEGEUK FORMS*


*PAGE TWO*


As you study the chart and the meaning of each of the eight symbols contemplate this as you practice your forms. All Tae Kwon Do forms have mental, physical and spiritual 
implications. 

*As you train for advancement we would hope that you consider the balance between your martial skills and the traditional values of Tae Kwon Do in your life.*

 It is believed that a persons perception becomes their reality, hence what you think is what you are. This means if you think something is good for you it will be. If you think something is bad for you it will be. The issue of who wrote a form, where it came from or even should you be doing a certain technique such as inside or outside is not as important as your thoughts and attitude related to the performance of that form.

*Poomse is a spiritual journey that no one can say they have arrived. This is why we say that no one can ever master any form. Your experience and relation ship with each form will change depending on how much time and effort you put into that form. So each form will always be changing just like life.*

1. Keon          Pure Um./Yin. Heaven and Light.
2. Tae.           Joy
3. Ri.              Fire and the sun. Creative passion.
4. Jin.             Thunder suggesting courage in the face of danger.
5. Seon.         Wind. Varies like the weather.
6. Gam.          Water   A river that never stops.
7. Gan            Wisdom of know what to do and when.
8. Gon            Pure Yang opposite of Yin. Earth bound providing elements 
Needed by Yang. Gon requires more in depth study to understand
It and Keon and their relationship to all mater and universe.

I am not sure about Palgue having anything to do with Tageuk. I can tell you when I was there when Grand Master Choi first introduced Tageuk to us his first explanaiton was that they were made for Caucasians who were out of shape and the stances were easeir to do? Obviously there is way more to it and some of the forms are tied spirtually to actual places in Korea as well. Before becoming a Master I pushed him hard for along time wanting to know who was the actual author and finally he replied that no single person wrote the Taeguks it was done by committee from many different Korean Martial Artitsts. I think it may go deeper than that with some Chinese and Japanese influence as well. I would love to here Ray Terry comment on this.

Hope this helps


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## Sambone

My advice is for you to buy a copy of the I Ching...yes it is a difficult philosophy book, but well worth the read. It explains (or at least if you can interpret what it is saying) what you have asked in your question.


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## Indie12

It's the Um/Yang (Korean Yin/Yang).


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## msmitht

Looks like everyone else covered it.


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## WaterGal

Payne said:


> so to recap, 8 taegeuk forms, 8 palgue forms, 8 trigrams, thats a lot of eights. Then 9 black belt forms. I wonder why they broke the line



I suppose because a) there are 9 dans, and b) the black belt forms don't form the shape of the trigrams the way the taeguk forms do (not sure if the palgwe ones do too, I don't know them).


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## Napitenkah

What you learn, actually depends on whether you are in a WTF school or ITF school.
Taeqeuks are WTF.
I know the 8 Taeqeuk forms.
Their representations are the same as trigrams, but they are called Kwai, in Korean.
When you do the form, you are doing the shape of a kwai.
Taeqeuk Il jang represents the sky, heavens.
Taeqeuk yi jang represents, lake.
Taeqeuk Sam Jang represents fire.
Taeqeuk Sa Jang represents thunder.
Taeqeuk Oh Jang represents wind.
Taeqeuk yuk Jang represents water.
Taeqeuk chil jang represents mountains.
Taeqeuk Pal jang represents Earth.
After that there are more Black belt forms, which have their own meanings.
I am presently learning Koryo.
I would also like to learn the ITF forms, as general Choi was the founder of Taekwondo anyway.


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## Gnarlie

Napitenkah said:


> What you learn, actually depends on whether you are in a WTF school or ITF school.
> Taeqeuks are WTF.
> I know the 8 Taeqeuk forms.
> Their representations are the same as trigrams, but they are called Kwai, in Korean.
> When you do the form, you are doing the shape of a kwai.
> Taeqeuk Il jang represents the sky, heavens.
> Taeqeuk yi jang represents, lake.
> Taeqeuk Sam Jang represents fire.
> Taeqeuk Sa Jang represents thunder.
> Taeqeuk Oh Jang represents wind.
> Taeqeuk yuk Jang represents water.
> Taeqeuk chil jang represents mountains.
> Taeqeuk Pal jang represents Earth.
> After that there are more Black belt forms, which have their own meanings.
> I am presently learning Koryo.
> I would also like to learn the ITF forms, as general Choi was the founder of Taekwondo anyway.



The Taegeuk forms are used by the WTF for competition but originate from and are controlled by Kukkiwon.

Do you understand why each form represents something?

Do you understand the meaning behind Koryo?

Choi as the founder of Taekwondo is debatable, not just among us but among the pioneers of our art. As far as TKD history goes, I would recommend not believing everything you hear or are told. Seek out reliable sources and avoid making statements without having factual evidence.

That said, no harm in learning as many forms as you can find as long as you have a core set. Taekwondo is about unification, and a bit of crossover can only help that.

Gnarlie


----------



## Dirty Dog

WaterGal said:


> I suppose because a) there are 9 dans, and b) the black belt forms don't form the shape of the trigrams the way the taeguk forms do (not sure if the palgwe ones do too, I don't know them).



The palgwe forms do not trace the gwae in the way that the taegeuk forms do. They all trace the same "I" pattern on the floor as the kicho forms, except for chil jang which traces an inverted "T" pattern.

There are 9 dan/yudanja forms because 9 is 3x3 and the number 3 is of significance to eastern mysticism. The Yudanja forms do not trace the trigrams, but the shape traced by each is certainly of importance to the overall meaning of the form i.e. the pattern traced by Koryo is the symbol for "a man of virtue", etc.


----------



## Napitenkah

Gnarlie said:


> The Taegeuk forms are used by the WTF for competition but originate from and are controlled by Kukkiwon.
> 
> Do you understand why each form represents something?
> 
> Do you understand the meaning behind Koryo?
> 
> Choi as the founder of Taekwondo is debatable, not just among us but among the pioneers of our art. As far as TKD history goes, I would recommend not believing everything you hear or are told. Seek out reliable sources and avoid making statements without having factual evidence.
> 
> That said, no harm in learning as many forms as you can find as long as you have a core set. Taekwondo is about unification, and a bit of crossover can only help that.
> 
> Gnarlie



I don't believe everything I am told, I don't have that kind of allegiance to WTF or ITF to be biased on taking sides.

I don't have an allegiance to Choi Hong Hi.

I was trained in WTF.

Most of the history on Taekwondo is not based on factual evidence, but on supposition.

If you look at Taekkyon and Hwa Rang Do, they are their own styles. 


"Do you understand why each form represents something?"

Look at what I wrote in the first post.

"Do you understand the meaning behind Koryo?"

Yes.

I just looked at this thread here;
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/17-Tae-Kwon-Do

And it syncs with what I found of the actual history of Taekwondo.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Napitenkah said:


> I was trained in WTF.




That's the problem. There *is* no WTF style of TKD. The WTF is purely an organization to promote and regulate a sport. It's not a style. It awards no rank. It sets no standards.

There is no WTF TKD, and it always saddens me that people who train in Kukkiwon style TKD confuse the two.


----------



## Napitenkah

Dirty Dog said:


> That's the problem. There *is* no WTF style of TKD. The WTF is purely an organization to promote and regulate a sport. It's not a style. It awards no rank. It sets no standards.
> 
> There is no WTF TKD, and it always saddens me that people who train in Kukkiwon style TKD confuse the two.[/FONT][/COLOR]



You are right there.

It is a sort of common altering of the meanings that people in Taekwondo do.

It was born of separating the International Taekwondo federation with the world Taekwondo federation, which is not the same as the world taekwondo headquarters in kukkiwon.

I am not focused on those political, social distinctions, because what matters more is Taekwondo itself, without all the outside historical corruption.

I write; "_Their representations are the same as trigrams, but they are called Kwai, in Korean._
_When you do the form, you are doing the shape of a kwai."
_
Then you ask; "Do you understand why each form represents something?"

It is just what people are focused on.


----------



## Gnarlie

Napitenkah said:


> 1)Most of the history on Taekwondo is not based on factual evidence, but on supposition.
> 
> 2)"Do you understand why each form represents something?"
> 
> Look at what I wrote in the first post.
> 
> Yes.



1) The 'history' of TKD is based on supposition. The actual history is out there to find if you are willing to do the work. It has not much to do with Taekkyon or Hwa Rang Do.

2) And why are the Kwaes involved? What's the point?


----------



## andyjeffries

Napitenkah said:


> Their representations are the same as trigrams, but they are called Kwai, in Korean.
> When you do the form, you are doing the shape of a kwai.



Just to be correct, it's "gwae" in Korean. The Koreans don't have a natural "aye/ai/eye" sound.  People often mispronounce Taekwondo as if it was spelt "Thai-kwondo" and it's my number 1 pet peeve!  Then again Hyundae hasn't helped the cause (they pronounce it as Hyun-dai in England, but in Korea it's always Hyun-deh).

When they need an "ai" sound they have to write it as two separate characters "ah" and "ee", so when they write Aikido, they have to write "ah-ee-gi-do" - &#50500;&#51060;&#44592;&#46020;.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Napitenkah said:


> You are right there.



Thank you.



Napitenkah said:


> It is a sort of common altering of the meanings that people in Taekwondo do.



I'm not sure what you mean by this.



Napitenkah said:


> It was born of separating the International Taekwondo federation with the world Taekwondo federation, which is not the same as the world taekwondo headquarters in kukkiwon.



Well, no, it has nothing to do with that, since when the ITF was formed, neither the Kukkiwon nor the WTF existed.



Napitenkah said:


> I am not focused on those political, social distinctions, because what matters more is Taekwondo itself, without all the outside historical corruption.



I'm not sure what you mean by this.



Napitenkah said:


> I write; "_Their representations are the same as trigrams, but they are called Kwai, in Korean._
> _When you do the form, you are doing the shape of a kwai."
> _




Actually, they're called gwae in Korean. As in poomsae palgwae - the patterns of the eight tragrams.

When I do any of the poomsae, I am doing more than just "the shape of the [gwae]".



Napitenkah said:


> Then you ask; "Do you understand why each form represents something?"




I didn't ask that, but it's a valid question.

What is your understanding of the meaning of the taeguk (or palgwae) il jang?


----------



## Gnarlie

Napitenkah said:


> "Do you understand the meaning behind Koryo?"
> 
> Yes.



Please enlighten us. Beyond the word 'Seonbae', what to you understand the meaning of Koryo to be?

Gnarlie


----------



## Napitenkah

Gnarlie said:


> 1) The 'history' of TKD is based on supposition. The actual history is out there to find if you are willing to do the work. It has not much to do with Taekkyon or Hwa Rang Do.
> 
> 2) And why are the Kwaes involved? What's the point?



I'm sorry, but your reply seems to be based on thinking I stated the opposite of what I did.


----------



## Napitenkah

andyjeffries said:


> Just to be correct, it's "gwae" in Korean. The Koreans don't have a natural "aye/ai/eye" sound.  People often mispronounce Taekwondo as if it was spelt "Thai-kwondo" and it's my number 1 pet peeve!  Then again Hyundae hasn't helped the cause (they pronounce it as Hyun-dai in England, but in Korea it's always Hyun-deh).
> 
> When they need an "ai" sound they have to write it as two separate characters "ah" and "ee", so when they write Aikido, they have to write "ah-ee-gi-do" - &#50500;&#51060;&#44592;&#46020;.



It is Kwae, Kwai or gwae, because all those are phonetic, not how a Korean would actually write it.
The Kwae has the same meaning as the chinese trigram, just as Taequek at its core has the same meaning as Taiji in chinese.

I had a south Korean Qwangjangnim, so whatever way he said to pronounce something Korean, I didn't quibble.

There was even a few times I looked words up later to check, and they seemed off from him, like he would say to say Momtung for both a middle punch and a middle block. So I was just saying middle, both times.

But he is South Korean, so I will take his word for it over anyone else.


----------



## Napitenkah

Gnarlie said:


> Please enlighten us. Beyond the word 'Seonbae', what to you understand the meaning of Koryo to be?
> 
> Gnarlie



Well, if we were in a dojang, you probably wouldn't ask like that. 

And I don't get it, because we don't know each other, and I am not here to be an authority on TKD, I know what I know, and we can share that, or we can keep getting upset about details and hot shotting each other.

I don't really like talking about a martial art we are mutually involved in, as a debate or source of contention.

What do you want to do.


----------



## Napitenkah

Dirty Dog said:


> Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by this.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, no, it has nothing to do with that, since when the ITF was formed, neither the Kukkiwon nor the WTF existed.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by this.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, they're called gwae in Korean. As in poomsae palgwae - the patterns of the eight tragrams.
> 
> When I do any of the poomsae, I am doing more than just "the shape of the [gwae]".
> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> I didn't ask that, but it's a valid question.
> 
> What is your understanding of the meaning of the taeguk (or palgwae) il jang?
> [/COLOR]



Yes you did, look at your posts.

And look at my previous closer, if you want answers, and try to interpret them correctly..

 Courtesy Integrity Perseverance Self-Control Indomitable Spirit.

Let's try those here, and not just at the local YMCA dojang.


----------



## Napitenkah

Gnarlie said:


> Please enlighten us. Beyond the word 'Seonbae', what to you understand the meaning of Koryo to be?
> 
> Gnarlie



But anyway, the Seonbae addition is typical of Kukkiwon.

What I knew was that Korea came from the Koryo dynasty, 918-1392 in which the Korean people fought back the mongols, and the form itself should be done in a conviction of indomitable spirit.
That is what Koryo initially meant, but I guess they are padding it with more meanings as they go along.


----------



## Gnarlie

Napitenkah said:


> Well, if we were in a dojang, you probably wouldn't ask like that.
> 
> And I don't get it, because we don't know each other, and I am not here to be an authority on TKD, I know what I know, and we can share that, or we can keep getting upset about details and hot shotting each other.
> 
> I don't really like talking about a martial art we are mutually involved in, as a debate or source of contention.
> 
> What do you want to do.



I'm not upset, and I absolutely would ask you these questions in a Dojang. Nobody is 'hot shotting' you. 

You revived an old thread here, stating information about the Taegeuk forms that can be found pretty easily using Google. (In fact all of it had already be covered in the thread, so I'm not sure why you revived it, but hey) 

You stated much of what you wrote as fact; I found this intriguing, as it led me to believe that you must be some kind of authority on the topic. 

I wanted to see what else you understand about the reasons for those patterns representing the Kwae, as talking over the reasons WHY brings more to the discussion than just stating the same old information that most TKD students already know.

I always try to look beyond the surface, especially in terms of TKD history and philosophy. That's why I am asking questions of you.

The reason people are picky about details here is that there is so much misinformation already on the internet and in books that it's good to keep the house in order here - if someone says something that is factually incorrect, they will be corrected. 

This especially applies when we discuss the difference between WTF (a sports governing body that regulates a rule set), ITF (a governing body for a martial art) and Kukkiwon (a governing body for a martial art). 

Everyone here is free to state their understanding of an issue. It's when someone's incorrect understanding is stated as fact that they can expect to be corrected. 

Gnarlie


----------



## Dirty Dog

Napitenkah said:


> Yes you did, look at your posts.



Good idea. I'd encourage you to try it. When you do, perhaps you will recognise that you're confusing me with someone else. The question was asked, but not by me. You made a mistake. Deal with it and move on. Perhaps by answering the questions that have been put to you?

Remainder of your post deleted. It's nothing but insults, and I don't generally reply to those.


----------



## Gnarlie

Yes, it was me who asked the question, which you still have not answered. 

Gnarlie


----------



## Dirty Dog

Gnarlie said:


> Yes, it was me who asked the question, which you still have not answered.
> 
> Gnarlie



Awwww.... you went and saved him from actually looking at the posts. :rofl:


----------



## jks9199

Folks, friendly goes both ways.  Let's rein in the heat a little; it seems as rather as if there might be some clashing communication styles here...  Remember that a "printed" word can come across differently than that same word spoken face to face because we lose so much of the emphasis and emotional tone.


----------



## miguksaram

Napitenkah said:


> You are right there.
> 
> It is a sort of common altering of the meanings that people in Taekwondo do.
> 
> It was born of separating the International Taekwondo federation with the world Taekwondo federation, which is not the same as the world taekwondo headquarters in kukkiwon.


Are you saying that the WTF was developed so that they could separate ITF from KKW TKD?  If so, then you have been misinformed.  



> I am not focused on those political, social distinctions, because what matters more is Taekwondo itself, without all the outside historical corruption.


Then perhaps you can explain actual TKD history without the corruption.



> I write; "_Their representations are the same as trigrams, but they are called Kwai, in Korean._
> _When you do the form, you are doing the shape of a kwai."
> _
> Then you ask; "Do you understand why each form represents something?"
> 
> It is just what people are focused on.


So are you saying you are not really concerned with the representation of the forms and that it plays no significance in your TKD training?


----------



## miguksaram

Napitenkah said:


> It is Kwae, Kwai or gwae, because all those are phonetic, not how a Korean would actually write it.


  Actually no.  When writing Korean words in English there is a distinct set of rules in translating.  Kwae and Gwae are not the same thing.  



> I had a south Korean Qwangjangnim, so whatever way he said to pronounce something Korean, I didn't quibble.


 Not to be the Korean/English spelling nazi here...well yeah...I guess I am....it is kwanjangnim (there is no 'g' in 'kwan').


----------



## miguksaram

Napitenkah said:


> Well, if we were in a dojang, you probably wouldn't ask like that.


Actually I am sure Gnarlie would ask it that way. 



> And I don't get it, because we don't know each other, and I am not here to be an authority on TKD, I know what I know, and we can share that, or we can keep getting upset about details and hot shotting each other. I don't really like talking about a martial art we are mutually involved in, as a debate or source of contention.
> 
> What do you want to do.


What if all you knew was incorrect?  For a long time many people were brought up to believe that TKD was 2000 years old and was adamant in holding on to that history, however through discussion and proof they found they were wrong.  You know what you know, and I believe that, but what you know may not be correct.  Would you rather live the illusion of being correct when you are not or know the truth.  Boards like this one helps in sharing knowledge and though it may get heated from time to time, it helps expand what we know by either confirming or challenging us to dig deeper into what we were taught.


----------



## Gnarlie

Fair comment. Let me rephrase: I would encourage anyone to contribute with their understanding of what the symbolism present in the Taegeuk and Yudanja forms means, and the reasons why it is present. Also why the patterns are the way they are - why those movements, in that particular order?

Napitenkah: I am not being mean or disrespectful to you, I am merely asking questions to encourage you to express your own opinion and understanding of this beyond what you may have read or heard from your instructor(s). I do think it's important to keep a clear line drawn between opinion and evidence-based conclusions.

So, in the name of progress, here's my understanding of the line of Koryo:

The Hangul for Seonbae is [h=1]&#49440;&#48176;[/h]
The Sino-Korean Hanja for Seonbae is

[h=1]&#20808;&#36649;
Which literally means 'Prior group'but carries the metaphorical meaning of 'senior'[/h]
The line of the poomsae is the sino-Korean Hanja character 'Sa', which looks like this:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/&#22763;#Hanja

This character implies the meaning of learned man / scholar (Seonbae), because it is formed from the radicals '+', meaning 10 and '-' meaning one, implying that this person knows and understands one to ten.


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/&#21313;

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/&#19968;

The Seonbae explanation was added in later editions of the KKW TKD Textbook, but the implication was always there as this character is quite common.

What you wrote about indomitable spirit and the Mongols also features in the explanation, but to say that the addition of the Seonbae explanation is 'typical of Kukkiwon' seems a bit harsh, when the meaning of the poomsae line was always there.

Anyone anything to add on Koryo meaning / philosophy?


----------



## Napitenkah

Yep, Gnarlie asked it.
My bad.
I am not afraid to say, when a discussion gets to a certain level, it bothers me, and I don't look at a thread for several days.
How I feel, is; it is not a problem that people are trying to correct misconceptions and to get a broader view of TKD then what can be commonly found. I prefer to get a more in depth view of a form or any aspect of a martial art, but just be sure what I come up with is actually part of it, or just my own take on it.
What if all I knew was incorrect?
As the Admin said, things go both ways.
If people are misinterpreting atleast half of what I say, so I have to go back and say, no I didn't mean it that way, or this is what my South Korean instructor taught me, and they are implying it is wrong, then it is not worth it to continue.
I misinterpret what other people say, obviously.
I cannot know what will actually insult other people, and they cannot tell me what is insulting to me or not. If I feel like people are hotshotting me when I am getting "Please enlighten us"
Or, "you still haven't answered the question" then that is what is happening to me. I got quizzed when I took the black belt test, I don't need it from strangers.
Taekwondo is Korean in origin. In that it was created by Koreans, even if it was in the last century, they conceived it.
Koreans, as I have witnessed, are always polite and friendly. Even if they are about to kick your butt, they are friendly.
Of course this does not actually mean that all Koreans are friendly and polite, it is just what I have observed so far. 
So if I am going to be in TKD, then I am going to be like that. I am not always, but it is an objective.
I had discussion, debates with him, especially when he said I should be a christian, but how we debated, is different then how americans, and some others debate.
The christian one ended with him saying. "Whatever you believe, I'm going to respect it anyway."
We can get more information from each other if we be as a Korean is when they talk.
I won't answer pointed questions, I have some knowledge of TKD as others here do.
I don't feel any of us is an authority.
On another note, I think it is cool I have a forum stalker, going around watching my posts. LOL. 
Not anyone that has posted on this thread.


----------



## Gnarlie

Napitenkah said:


> I am not afraid to say, when a discussion gets to a certain level, it bothers me, and I don't look at a thread for several days.


This is a discussion forum. It might help us to understand each other better if we are willing to discuss points rather than just making statements. In order for this to happen, we need to be prepared to have our ideas about the truth challenged. 


Napitenkah said:


> How I feel, is; it is not a problem that people are trying to correct misconceptions and to get a broader view of TKD then what can be commonly found. I prefer to get a more in depth view of a form or any aspect of a martial art, but just be sure what I come up with is actually part of it, or just my own take on it.


I am not sure what you mean with this. We are all looking for depth and breadth, based on fact.  Determining what is and is not fact takes discussion to establish the source and corroborating evidence. Where no evidence exists, discussion in this group can at least act as a kind of informal peer review process. This allows us to determine what is likely to be true. 


Napitenkah said:


> What if all I knew was incorrect?
> As the Admin said, things go both ways.
> If people are misinterpreting atleast half of what I say, so I have to go back and say, no I didn't mean it that way, or this is what my South Korean instructor taught me, and they are implying it is wrong, then it is not worth it to continue.


Of course it's worth continuing. By the way, being South Korean doesn't mean one can fly in the face of the accepted current Romanisation rules for your own language. Those rules are the reason why your speling of Kwae / Gwae /Kwai was challenged. Being South Korean also doesn't give one an automatic free pass to correct and up to date information concerning Taekwondo or anything else. Hey, the Koreans argue amongst themselves all the time over what's right. 

If people misinterpret what you say then please clarify. The nature of text is that it can be misinterpreted. I would encourage you to look further that what you may have been told by your instructor, South Korean or otherwise. It's the nature of people that they are not always right. 


Napitenkah said:


> I misinterpret what other people say, obviously.
> I cannot know what will actually insult other people, and they cannot tell me what is insulting to me or not. If I feel like people are hotshotting me when I am getting "Please enlighten us"
> Or, "you still haven't answered the question" then that is what is happening to me. I got quizzed when I took the black belt test, I don't need it from strangers.


Nobody is quizzing you, questions and challenges are the nature of discussion. You can't really expect to make a statement on any online forum and not have people ask questions about it. 

I am sorry if you were offended by my wording. My questions were worded in this way because you seemed to be presenting yourself as someone who knew more than the rest of us. As this appears not to be the case,  I take that wording back. My questions are valid though, and necessary in order to further discussion. I gave my understanding on the Koryo question, but the 'why the Kwae?' question remains open. 


Napitenkah said:


> Taekwondo is Korean in origin. In that it was created by Koreans, even if it was in the last century, they conceived it.
> Koreans, as I have witnessed, are always polite and friendly. Even if they are about to kick your butt, they are friendly.
> Of course this does not actually mean that all Koreans are friendly and polite, it is just what I have observed so far.


I think that's a rather romanticised view of Koreans. Koreans are just as human as the rest of us, and just as subject to emotion, frustration, anger, greed etc. 


Napitenkah said:


> So if I am going to be in TKD, then I am going to be like that. I am not always, but it is an objective.
> I had discussion, debates with him, especially when he said I should be a christian, but how we debated, is different then how americans, and some others debate.
> The christian one ended with him saying. "Whatever you believe, I'm going to respect it anyway."
> We can get more information from each other if we be as a Korean is when they talk.


I don't agree with your Korean analogy but your point about respect is good. So here's an olive branch: I'll word my questions in a more respectful but no less challenging way, if you will be prepared to discuss points you make in more depth and clarify where you are misinterpreted. 

For example in this thread:

-You revived an old thread with no new information. I challenged you with a question to try to bring some out. My question was intended to bring out: Why the Kwae? Why do the Taegeuk forms have those shapes and those meanings? Why does each form have a philosophy? Is there an overall aim that these meanings are meant to teach? 

-You stated as fact that Choi was the founder of TKD. I challenged this, and yet you did not clarify why you believe it to be true, so the discussion remains unresolved. You only stated you have no loyalty to ITF or Kukkiwon...if that's the case, why make the statement about Choi in the first place if you are not prepared to clarify why you believe it's true? 

-You stated that Taekwondo history is largely based on supposition. I interpreted this to mean that you think there isn't any documented evidence for the actual true history of Taekwondo. There certainly is, and I challenged you on it. You stated that I had misintepreted your point, but without clarification, so the discussion is unresolved. I'd still like to understand what you actually believe. 


Napitenkah said:


> I won't answer pointed questions, I have some knowledge of TKD as others here do.
> I don't feel any of us is an authority.


You will notice that my questions only became 'pointed' when you made statements that were debatable, you were politely challenged, and then you did not clarify your position. 

Some people here (I do not include myself in this) are certainly authorities on Taekwondo. There are people on this forum who have spent their whole lives dedicated to this art. 





Gnarlie


----------



## Napitenkah

"Why the Kwae? Why do the Taegeuk forms have those shapes and those meanings? Why does each form have a philosophy? Is there an overall aim that these meanings are meant to teach? "
I don't think I can say anything here,  in a place where people study TKD, atleast about the established information, that hasn't already been heard.
Maybe with my own feelings about the forms and what they mean.
Before the Kwae is Taegeuk, the complete universe with its duality. The Kwae come in as the movement of Taeqeuk, or in Taeqeuk. The elements of life. There is a korean version of the I-ching, which this information lead to the creation of the Taeqeuk forms, by the Korean Taekwondo association.  KTA doesn't recongnize Palgwe forms, or ITF forms. KTA is linked with WTF and Kukkiwon, which is why it is not really wrong to say WTF style Taekwondo or WTF kukkiwon style. People involved will usually understand what you are getting at.
If you look at the Bagua, the eight Kwae around the Taeqeuk have the symbols and same meaning as the 8 Taeqeuk forms, in the same order.
They are aspects of life in form.
All in all, the aim is a Taoist perspective, which I am in alignment with.
As for my own feelings on them, first I am learning the forms.
I know the movements, but I feel I haven't really gotten them to where it is like breathing them, and actualizing the power of them.
This takes continual practice.
I did see someone wrote about Koryo in the other thread, how once people have gotten to that first dan black belt, they lose focus.
This I did experience. I worked so hard to get all those forms down, once I got it, it was like a dump. I started learning Koryo, but I still don't have all the form down, even just the movement of it. Partly too, because I started learning Kung Fu, which is what I feel more aligned to energetically.
But I still practice and am learning Koryo.


----------



## Napitenkah

> I think that's a rather romanticised view of Koreans. Koreans are just as human as the rest of us, and just as subject to emotion, frustration, anger, greed etc.




See, this is what I mean, and I have done this to, as you have pointed out.
If I write that from what I witnessed Koreans are always friendly and polite, but, Of course this does not actually mean that all Koreans are friendly and polite, it is just what I have observed so far.
This is not romanticized. If I wrote all Koreans are friendly and polite, period. That is.
This just slows down where we can get to know what we know, if we keep having to say, no, I didn't mean that.
So far, Koreans I have met are friendly, polite, and though I didn't say it, I am aware they have emotions, anger, greed and can be dishonest.  I know beating their kids in South Korea, is generally accepted, as well as in the schools.
The ones I met feel American Kids are generally disrespectful.

And do me a favor, on whatever whole post I do, I don't really like when someone breaks it down into sections and critiques the individual sections as if they are statements in themselves.

You prefer to write and respond that way, but I don't, I feel it can more easily be taken out of context, which is what has been done.

Like the one I just wrote before this, I probably won't reply if it gets crumbled into little sections, taken apart, reformed to mean something else.


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## Gnarlie

Napitenkah said:


> "Why the Kwae? Why do the Taegeuk forms have those shapes and those meanings? Why does each form have a philosophy? Is there an overall aim that these meanings are meant to teach? "
> I don't think I can say anything here,  in a place where people study TKD, atleast about the established information, that hasn't already been heard.
> Maybe with my own feelings about the forms and what they mean.
> Before the Kwae is Taegeuk, the complete universe with its duality. The Kwae come in as the movement of Taeqeuk, or in Taeqeuk. The elements of life. There is a korean version of the I-ching, which this information lead to the creation of the Taeqeuk forms, by the Korean Taekwondo association.  KTA doesn't recongnize Palgwe forms, or ITF forms. KTA is linked with WTF and Kukkiwon, which is why it is not really wrong to say WTF style Taekwondo or WTF kukkiwon style. People involved will usually understand what you are getting at.
> If you look at the Bagua, the eight Kwae around the Taeqeuk have the symbols and same meaning as the 8 Taeqeuk forms, in the same order.
> They are aspects of life in form.
> All in all, the aim is a Taoist perspective, which I am in alignment with.
> As for my own feelings on them, first I am learning the forms.
> I know the movements, but I feel I haven't really gotten them to where it is like breathing them, and actualizing the power of them.
> This takes continual practice.
> I did see someone wrote about Koryo in the other thread, how once people have gotten to that first dan black belt, they lose focus.
> This I did experience. I worked so hard to get all those forms down, once I got it, it was like a dump. I started learning Koryo, but I still don't have all the form down, even just the movement of it. Partly too, because I started learning Kung Fu, which is what I feel more aligned to energetically.
> But I still practice and am learning Koryo.



Thanks for your answer.

I see what you are saying about KTA / Kukkiwon / WTF and their formation, but it is important to make a distinction here on this forum because when people say WTF they mean sport / Olympic style shihap Kyorugi and competition standards for Poomsae, or the organisation that regulates competition. 

When they say Kukkiwon Taekwondo, they mean the full Kukkiwon Taekwondo martial art syllabus including the testing standards for Poomsae, or the organisation that regulates Taekwondo as a martial art.

If you are not careful using the terms, people here often will not understand what you are getting at, and are wont to criticise aspects of Taekwondo or your argument because they don't understand the context.

On the subject of the Taoist perspective, does that affect how you perform the forms? Does it affect how you live your life, how you behave?

On the point about 'breathing' the patterns, what is your view of your ultimate goal in practising forms? I ask this because at the moment I am working less on perfection of the movements 'in form', and more on breathing through the forms as a form of moving meditation. I work on perfection of the motions and their applications 'out of form', so performing poomsae has become more about the enjoyment of the movement and the focus required.

On your last point about Koryo, that loss of focus is common and something that one must work to get over. In many ways, second dan acts as a watershed to establish who's in it for the longer journey. Koryo is a form that requires the student to demonstrate focus. It is a very intense blast of combinations of techniques, most of which do not feature in the Taegeuk series and so are unfamiliar. With each new Taegeuk form, we get maybe 3 or 4 new techniques. With Koryo, most of the techniques are new. It's like a message saying, 'OK, now you know your basics, you have not finished, get your head down and concentrate on what's to come.' 

There's nothing wrong with cross training in my opinion, enjoy the change. But bear in mind there's just as much freshness after 1st dan in TKD, if you know where to look.

On the subject of splitting posts, if you make more than one point in a paragraph, I'll split it, otherwise it's too confusing both for me and for other people reading the thread to follow what's being said on each point.


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## Gnarlie

Napitenkah said:


> See, this is what I mean, and I have done this to, as you have pointed out.
> If I write that from what I witnessed Koreans are always friendly and polite, but, Of course this does not actually mean that all Koreans are friendly and polite, it is just what I have observed so far.
> This is not romanticized. If I wrote all Koreans are friendly and polite, period. That is.
> This just slows down where we can get to know what we know, if we keep having to say, no, I didn't mean that.
> So far, Koreans I have met are friendly, polite, and though I didn't say it, I am aware they have emotions, anger, greed and can be dishonest.  I know beating their kids in South Korea, is generally accepted, as well as in the schools.
> The ones I met feel American Kids are generally disrespectful.
> 
> And do me a favor, on whatever whole post I do, I don't really like when someone breaks it down into sections and critiques the individual sections as if they are statements in themselves.
> 
> You prefer to write and respond that way, but I don't, I feel it can more easily be taken out of context, which is what has been done.
> 
> Like the one I just wrote before this, I probably won't reply if it gets crumbled into little sections, taken apart, reformed to mean something else.



On the topic of Korean behaviour, you initially said not all Koreans are like this, then you went on to make a bunch of rather sweeping generalisations about Korean behaviour.

Perhaps it would have been easier to leave the Koreans out of it and cite the humanitarian ideals of Taekwondo instead.


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## Cyriacus

Yo. Im a less polite person than Gnarlie. Feel free to stop reading right here and go about your business if you want.



Napitenkah said:


> This just slows down where we can get to know what we know, if we keep having to say, no, I didn't mean that.
> So far, Koreans I have met are friendly, polite, and though I didn't say it, I am aware they have emotions, anger, greed and can be dishonest.  I know beating their kids in South Korea, is generally accepted, as well as in the schools.
> The ones I met feel American Kids are generally disrespectful.



I have a question for you. Give me a firsthand example of a disrespectful American teenager. Not by your definition, not by the definitions of South Korean culture, not by the definitions of American culture. Someone who openly challenges other people who deserve their respect. So basically, find me American teenagers who defy their own standards of decency and ethics to disrespect another person.

Respect and what defines it varies so wildly from place to place that it cannot and should not be looked at like a standard. American kids probably are disrespectful, according to South Koreans. Now go ask an American teenager if his friends are disrespectful. Culture is more than nationality, and respect is more than a generalized sense of supremacy wherein people viewed as inferior 'respect', or belittle themselves for the benefit of those who view themselves as better than them.



> And do me a favor, on whatever whole post I do, I don't really like when someone breaks it down into sections and critiques the individual sections as if they are statements in themselves.



So basically, you dont want anyone to read any of what you have to say in isolation? Well, sorry if that doesnt float your boat mate, but if you say something im going to read it, im going to take you on your word, and im going to interpret what you have communicated. Did it never occur to you that they are statements in and of themselves, all of which contribute to whatever point it is youre trying to make? If you are reading this, right now, are all my sentences blurring together into one statement, or are they numerous statements being used to communicate with you? This is how conversation happens. Its a long way from verbal communication, but to be fair, in a verbal chat you wouldnt get so many words out of your mouth before the other participants had their own piece/s to pitch. Verbal conversation is much shorter. Textual conversation allows for, in some ways, more specific conversation.



> You prefer to write and respond that way, but I don't, I feel it can more easily be taken out of context, which is what has been done.



Then explain yourself. And tell me, how do you want people to reply to particular points youve made? Do you want us to just ignore the points youve made whether we agree with them or not, and just agree or disagree with no basis of conversation whatsoever? This is a discussion board. We discuss things. Discussion requires points to be made and those points to be addressed.



> Like the one I just wrote before this, I probably won't reply if it gets crumbled into little sections, taken apart, reformed to mean something else.



But it hasnt been reformed. Were taking your words and replying to what youve said. I repeat: If this were a verbal conversation, id be replying to every single point or statement you made before you could go on to the next one. Thats how conversation works. Im pretty sure thats universal, too. Only difference is that in text, you get to make several statements, which you have whether you want it to be viewed that way or not, which are then replied to with statements of their own.

Have a great day!


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## Napitenkah

You know what, forget it, I'm out.


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## Gnarlie

Well that's sad.

It felt like we might be getting somewhere. You can't really discuss without discussion.

I'd still welcome input to this thread from anyone regarding how the underlying philosophy of the Taegeuk forms affect the way you practice them, the way you train, and or the way you live in general.

Does the fact that the forms and TKD in general are based on Taoist, Buddhist, and Confucianist principles interest you? Bother you? Change how you practice or live?


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## Cyriacus

Napitenkah said:


> You know what, forget it, I'm out.



Toodles, mate.


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## Cyriacus

"And do me a favor, on whatever whole post I do, I don't really like when  someone breaks it down into sections and critiques the individual  sections as if they are statements in themselves."



Napitenkah said:


> I don't believe everything I am told, I don't have that kind of allegiance to WTF or ITF to be biased on taking sides.
> 
> I don't have an allegiance to Choi Hong Hi.
> 
> I was trained in WTF.
> 
> Most of the history on Taekwondo is not based on factual evidence, but on supposition.
> 
> If you look at Taekkyon and Hwa Rang Do, they are their own styles.
> 
> 
> "Do you understand why each form represents something?"
> 
> Look at what I wrote in the first post.
> 
> "Do you understand the meaning behind Koryo?"
> 
> Yes.
> 
> I just looked at this thread here;
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/17-Tae-Kwon-Do
> 
> And it syncs with what I found of the actual history of Taekwondo.



Hmm.
I guess its only okay when you do it.

EDIT: Going back again, you actually did this quite a bit by quoting small parts of peoples replies, then replying to them separately in separate successive replies. You sir, are a hypocrite.


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## Napitenkah

Cyriacus said:


> "And do me a favor, on whatever whole post I do, I don't really like when  someone breaks it down into sections and critiques the individual  sections as if they are statements in themselves."
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm.
> I guess its only okay when you do it.
> 
> EDIT: Going back again, you actually did this quite a bit by quoting small parts of peoples replies, then replying to them separately in separate successive replies. You sir, are a hypocrite.



Thanks for not breaking up that post.

Okay, [h=3]So what exactly IS a Taeguek anyway?[/h]
How about we talk about Taeguek, Taekwondo, and not each other.


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## Cyriacus

*Replies to user complaining about communication methods
*Points out that user has broken up posts themself
"Thanks for not breaking up that post."

See now, youve somewhat made up for it by making me laugh my **** off.
Go riiight on ahead


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## TrueJim

There's also an explanation of the pal gwae (the eight trigrams) and the taegeuk at 

Taekwondo Symbolism - Taekwondo Wiki


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## The_Awesome_User

In my dojang we learned 8 taegueks. One for each palgwe.


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## Dirty Dog

The_Awesome_User said:


> In my dojang we learned 8 taegueks. One for each palgwe.



Not quite. You learned one for each Gwae. A gwae is one of the trigrams. Palgwae means "8 trigrams" and is another system of forms entirely. The palgwae forms were used by KKW schools in the past, but were replaced by the Taegeuk forms in (if memory serves correctly) 1971.


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## TrueJim

As I understand it...

In 1965 the Korea Taekwondo Association appointed a committee of representatives from six of the Nine Kwans to develop the forms for what is now called Kukkiwon-style taekwondo. The committee consisted of:

Gun Sik Kwak of the Chung Do Kwan
Young Sup Lee of the Song Moo Kwan
Kyo Yoon Lee of the Han Moo Kwan
Man Hae Park of the Chung Do Kwan
Jong Myun Hyun of the Oh Do Kwan
Soon Bae Kim of the Chang Moo Kwan
In 1967, this committee introduced the Palgwe and Yudanja (Black Belt) forms (including a simpler version of Koryo). In 1971 two additional kwans joined the committee:

Chong Woo Lee of Jidokwan
Young Ki Bae also of Jidokwan
Young Tae Han of Moo Duk Kwan
This expanded committee went on to develop the Taegeuk forms. As I understand it, the new taekgeuk forms were intended to do two things: (1) incorporate aspects of the styles of the newly-added two kwans, and (2) introduce upright postures earlier a student's instruction, to better prepare the student for sparring.

Taegeuk Poomsae - Taekwondo Wiki


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## Jaeimseu

That should read Park Hae Man (Korean style) or Hae Man Park (English style) of the Chungdokwan.


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## TrueJim

Jaeimseu said:


> That should read Park Hae Man (Korean style) or Hae Man Park (English style) of the Chungdokwan.



That would make more sense, I think. I have two (not great) references though saying it was Gun Sik Kwak. There's this blog:
Taekwondo History
(about one-third of the way down the blog).

And this thread:
Philosophy In Taeguek Poomsae MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

You wouldn't by any chance have a definitive reference would you? I ask only so that I can add it to the wiki.


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## Gnarlie

http://web.stanford.edu/group/Taekwondo/documents/tkd_history.pdf try this TrueJim, it was recommended to my by the late Grandmaster Al Cole.


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## Jaeimseu

No. I've met the man several times and I've always heard he was on the committee.


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## TrueJim

Jaeimseu said:


> No. I've met the man several times and I've always heard he was on the committee.



It could be that both things were true. Like...look at how often one name is on a committee, but he sends another name to represent him at most of the meetings.

I did just find this source: Grandmaster Park Hae man Taeguk creator Taekwondo
And this source: TKD History

I've updated the Taegeuk Poomsae page on the wiki to note the info, and also created a Hae Man Park biography page (feel free to add more to either page if you know any more detail - it's a wiki after all!).

Hae Man Park - Taekwondo Wiki


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## msmitht

Here. Taeguek is in the middle


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## dvcochran

Gemini said:


> In class tonight, we got into a discussion regarding the Taeguek forms. It's not something we normally do, because all the students being different levels, aren't at the point where they follow such things. Tonight was all 2nd dans and a high colored belt. Specialty class! I love 'em.
> 
> So as we're going through the forms, I realized I had no idea what a Taeguek was (besides the name of a form), so I asked. Here's the short version of what I learned. Anyone that can chip in or redirect, please feel free to do so.
> 
> A Taeguek is a symbol on the Korean flag. We all know the four symbols (or if not, just ask), but what I didn't know was that there are 16 Taegueks in all. Three in between each one on the Korean flag. So then I ask "If those are Taegueks, what's a Palgwe?"
> 
> There are 8 Palgwe symbols. (Not talking forms here). Each Taeguek is made up of varying combinations of the 8 Palgwe's.
> 
> So where we left off and I don't have answers for yet.
> 1. What is the name of each of the eight Palgwe symbols?
> 2. What are the names of the other 12 Taegueks not portrayed on the Korean flag?
> 3. Which Palgwe's make up each Taeguek?
> 
> If anyone knows, please clarify.
> 
> Thanks,



From Wiki:
The flag's background is white, a traditional color in Korean culture. White was common in the daily attire of 19th-century Koreans, and it still appears in contemporary versions of traditional Korean garments, such as the hanbok. The color represents peace and purity.

The circle in the middle is derived from the philosophy of um-yang (yin-yang in Chinese) and represents balance in the universe. The red half represents positive cosmic forces, and the blue half represents the opposing negative cosmic forces.

Together, the trigrams represent movement and harmony as fundamental principles. Each trigram (hangeul: 괘 [gwae]; hanja: 卦) represents one of the four classical elements,[2] as described below:

*Trigram* *Korean name* *Celestial body* *Season* *Cardinal direction* *Virtue* *Family* *Natural element* *Meaning
☰* _geon_
(건 / 乾) heaven
(천 / 天) spring
(춘 / 春) east
(동 / 東) humanity
(인 / 仁) father
(부 / 父) heaven
(천 / 天) justice
(정의 / 正義)
*☲* _ri_
(리 / 離) sun
(일 / 日) autumn
(추 / 秋) south
(남 / 南) justice
(의 / 義) daughter
(녀 / 女) fire
(화 / 火) fruition
(결실 / 結實)
*☵* _gam_
(감 / 坎) moon
(월 / 月) winter
(동 / 冬) north
(북 / 北) intelligence
(지 / 智) son
(자 / 子) water
(수 / 水) wisdom
(지혜 / 智慧)
*☷* _gon_
(곤 / 坤) earth
(지 / 地) summer
(하 / 夏) west
(서 / 西) courtesy
(례 / 禮) mother
(모 / 母) earth
(토 / 土) vitality
(생명력 / 生命力) 

From the I Ching:
*The I Ching Trigrams*






*Eight Basic Principles*

*I Ching consists of 64 hexagrams, but it's really the eight trigrams they are combinations of that are the basic components of the I Ching. The trigrams explain the nature of each hexagram. Here they are, and the principles they represent.*








      There are 64 hexagrams in the I Ching, which are used in divination, consisting of six lines that are either full or broken. Each hexagram has its specific meaning and divination text. But they in turn are made up of pairs of trigrams, with three lines each. And those trigrams are the real keys to the I Ching and its logics.

      Each of the eight trigrams represents a baisc force of nature. They are:


*Heaven*, the Creative
*Lake*, the Joyous
*Fire*, the Clinging
*Thunder*, the Arousing
*Wind*, the Gentle
*Water*, the Abysmal
*Mountain*, Keeping Still
*Earth*, the Receptive

      Since the trigrams consist of three lines that can either be broken or whole, the number of possible combination of lines is eight (2 x 2 x 2). And each of the hexagrams is a unique combination of two trigrams. That makes for a total of 64 (8 x 8). That's the whole of the I Ching.


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## dvcochran

Something of interest I have seen referenced in books but seldom hear mentioned is the Line of Taeguek, a thin line between the red and blue on most Korean flags. It is the infinite divide between good and evil etc.... My GM, Seoung Eui Shin speaks of it often when talking about the adversities of life.
mastershinonline.com


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## dvcochran

Cyriacus said:


> Yo. Im a less polite person than Gnarlie. Feel free to stop reading right here and go about your business if you want.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a question for you. Give me a firsthand example of a disrespectful American teenager. Not by your definition, not by the definitions of South Korean culture, not by the definitions of American culture. Someone who openly challenges other people who deserve their respect. So basically, find me American teenagers who defy their own standards of decency and ethics to disrespect another person.
> 
> Respect and what defines it varies so wildly from place to place that it cannot and should not be looked at like a standard. American kids probably are disrespectful, according to South Koreans. Now go ask an American teenager if his friends are disrespectful. Culture is more than nationality, and respect is more than a generalized sense of supremacy wherein people viewed as inferior 'respect', or belittle themselves for the benefit of those who view themselves as better than them.
> 
> 
> 
> So basically, you dont want anyone to read any of what you have to say in isolation? Well, sorry if that doesnt float your boat mate, but if you say something im going to read it, im going to take you on your word, and im going to interpret what you have communicated. Did it never occur to you that they are statements in and of themselves, all of which contribute to whatever point it is youre trying to make? If you are reading this, right now, are all my sentences blurring together into one statement, or are they numerous statements being used to communicate with you? This is how conversation happens. Its a long way from verbal communication, but to be fair, in a verbal chat you wouldnt get so many words out of your mouth before the other participants had their own piece/s to pitch. Verbal conversation is much shorter. Textual conversation allows for, in some ways, more specific conversation.
> 
> 
> 
> Then explain yourself. And tell me, how do you want people to reply to particular points youve made? Do you want us to just ignore the points youve made whether we agree with them or not, and just agree or disagree with no basis of conversation whatsoever? This is a discussion board. We discuss things. Discussion requires points to be made and those points to be addressed.
> 
> 
> 
> But it hasnt been reformed. Were taking your words and replying to what youve said. I repeat: If this were a verbal conversation, id be replying to every single point or statement you made before you could go on to the next one. Thats how conversation works. Im pretty sure thats universal, too. Only difference is that in text, you get to make several statements, which you have whether you want it to be viewed that way or not, which are then replied to with statements of their own.
> 
> Have a great day!


I know I am jumping into the middle of the conversation, forgive me.
I agree with most of what you say but I take exception to even the counter-notion here: "Culture is more than nationality, and *respect is more than a generalized sense of supremacy wherein people viewed as inferior 'respect', or belittle themselves for the benefit of those who view themselves as better than them.*" No where in my realm of thinking does such an idea surface. Where is the world does the thought (or counter) of respect enter such an extreme idea? Way, way out in left field. Never is respect belittling. IMHO.


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## _Simon_

dvcochran said:


> I know I am jumping into the middle of the conversation, forgive me.
> I agree with most of what you say but I take exception to even the counter-notion here: "Culture is more than nationality, and *respect is more than a generalized sense of supremacy wherein people viewed as inferior 'respect', or belittle themselves for the benefit of those who view themselves as better than them.*" No where in my realm of thinking does such an idea surface. Where is the world does the thought (or counter) of respect enter such an extreme idea? Way, way out in left field. Never is respect belittling. IMHO.


(The conversation was from 5 years ago though so I don't reckon you're butting in ;D)


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## TrueJim

Actually all these Pinned threads are pretty ancient. One would imagine they're due for an update.


----------

