# Yang Style Tai Chi; is it dead?



## Xue Sheng

After doing a whole lot of research on Yang style tai chi chuan and Taoism I can say that Tai chi makes a little more sense today because of what I read in Taoism. But that research had the opposite effect from what I expected when it comes to Yang style Tai Chi. 

I am more disillusioned and disappointed in Yang style in the 21st century than I was before. 

It is the most widely practiced tai chi in the world but that has caused it to become incredibly watered down. Very few that practice it know anything about the martial arts of the Yang family and many do not even know it was considered a martial art. As one gentleman told me I do not DO martial arts, I do tai Chi. As if Martial arts was beneath him and tai chi person was superior to that. But then I have also heard a very well trained tai chi sifu, with a good lineage, refer to other martial arts as lower forms and Tai Chi as superior. 

I have seen push hands advertised purely as a Qi Gong with emphasis placed on the fact that it had nothing to do with Martial arts. 

Many people doing Yang Tai Chi do not know anything beyond 24, 32 or 48 form Yang style. And they certainly have no idea that there is a fast form, Broad sword forms, straight sword forms, staff forms and a spear form, not to mention the traditional 108 (depending on how you count)

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with this, practicing their Tai makes them happier and healthier. But all of this is virtually killing Yang style tai chi as a martial art. And to be honest, I am not sure that it isnt already too late to resurrect Yang style tai chi.

Few practice Yang style as a martial art and of those few fewer still know the actual Yang style martial arts. Many take things they learned in other martial arts and apply it to yang style. This can translates into the use of to much force. As for the use of Qinna, and this surprised me, it depends on what your Yang style teachers lineage is. If it comes from Yang Cheng-fu, it is doubtful that they are keeping true to the Yang style of Yang Cheng-fu. Yang Cheng-fu, although incredibly talented and never defeated, removed much of the Qinna. If a teachers lineage goes to Yang Shau-hao (Yang Cheng-fus older brother) then the Qinna is still there, but that lineage is far less prevalent than to Yang Cheng-fu. 

I wrote this in the hope that I can be proven wrong, I have practiced Yang style for a very long time and I have considered giving up the fight.

What do the other Yang stylist think, Tai Chi people and martial artists think?


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## Edmund BlackAdder

I don't believe it is dead, at least, as long as there are serious people practicing it.


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## dmax999

Actually I think it is coming back strongly as a martial art now. When I started learning it ten years ago the only reference to it being a martial art was "At one point Tai Chi was a martial art but in modern society it cannot be considered effective as a way of self defense", and thats all I ever saw of it being a martial art. I was the only one at my first Tai Chi school interested in the fighting aspects (out of over 100 students).

Five years ago I finally learned about peng and fa-jing, requirements to Tai Chi being a martial art. Thats right, five years of reading about it before I found this out, but now its extremely common to know about this thanks to so many Tai Chi references on the internet mostly.

Now instead of everyone trying to convince each other that it is not a martial art there are lots of people trying to get out the fighting aspects. If you want to learn the fighting aspects learn the fighting applications of the movements in the form. Practice the applications against someone so you get the feel and try to incorporate them into push hands. Then change your form practice to match the actual applications, this means doing some movements completely different then you did before and probably differnt then your teacher teaches them.

If you actually learn the applications of the movements and postures you will not be asking the question you did. You will know that Tai Chi is actually one of the most violent MAs out there completely disguised as moving yoga.


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## Flying Crane

Too bad you haven't met Bill Chin, here in San Francisco.  His group organized the Tai Chi Picnic in Golden Gate Park every year.  His Yang is awsome, and I have seen his push hands.  He was about 80, and sick, but still did a demonstration of the form that lasted about 40 minutes.  In push hands he threw this young guy all over the field for about 15 minutes.  that guy is unbelieveable.  In the right places, Yang is still strong.

He retired from teaching a couple years ago.


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## Xue Sheng

dmax999 said:
			
		

> Actually I think it is coming back strongly as a martial art now. When I started learning it ten years ago the only reference to it being a martial art was "At one point Tai Chi was a martial art but in modern society it cannot be considered effective as a way of self defense", and thats all I ever saw of it being a martial art. I was the only one at my first Tai Chi school interested in the fighting aspects (out of over 100 students).
> 
> Five years ago I finally learned about peng and fa-jing, requirements to Tai Chi being a martial art. Thats right, five years of reading about it before I found this out, but now its extremely common to know about this thanks to so many Tai Chi references on the internet mostly.
> 
> Now instead of everyone trying to convince each other that it is not a martial art there are lots of people trying to get out the fighting aspects. If you want to learn the fighting aspects learn the fighting applications of the movements in the form. Practice the applications against someone so you get the feel and try to incorporate them into push hands. Then change your form practice to match the actual applications, this means doing some movements completely different then you did before and probably differnt then your teacher teaches them.
> 
> If you actually learn the applications of the movements and postures you will not be asking the question you did. You will know that Tai Chi is actually one of the most violent MAs out there completely disguised as moving yoga.


 
Actually I know a lot of the applications of the movements that I have learned over the years. I have done a lot of push hands as well. And my experience is similar to yours, but it appears to me to be going the other way again I have been in Tai Chi for 14 years, Mainly Yang, some Chen and a little Wu. I learned more about fajing and applications after 2 years in, but I knew they existed and were part of Tai Chi before that. (I'm old).

I have trained push hands against other Tai Chi people. Aikido people and Karate people (Free sparing). I have done tai Chi San Shou as well, as well as long forms, weapons forms and fast forms. I knew Tai Chi was a martial art many many years ago when I first read about it, approximately 30 years ago.

My question comes from see the influx of people that no longer are interested in learning any Tai Chi martial arts.

As for my teacher, he is a student of Tung Ying Chieh who was a student of Yang Cheng-fu and he is very skilled, but even he has seemed to buckle to the pressure of the non martial arts tai chi person. He currently ahs more beginner and intermediate that do not care at all about the martial arts aspect and his senior students are leaving, I am one of the last 3. 

So I do have a lot of experience in application, I just see the numbers dwindling of those that want to know anything about Tai Chi martial arts.

And maybe I should have worded the question differently, 

Is Yang style Tai Chi dying?


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## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> My question comes from see the influx of people that no longer are interested in learning any Tai Chi martial arts.
> 
> As for my teacher, he is a student of Tung Ying Chieh who was a student of Yang Cheng-fu and he is very skilled, but even he has seemed to buckle to the pressure of the non martial arts tai chi person. He currently ahs more beginner and intermediate that do not care at all about the martial arts aspect and his senior students are leaving, I am one of the last 3.
> 
> So I do have a lot of experience in application, I just see the numbers dwindling of those that want to know anything about Tai Chi martial arts.
> 
> And maybe I should have worded the question differently,
> 
> Is Yang style Tai Chi dying?


 
I think the problem is that Tai Chi is an effective form of exercise, and that is really what people want.  For most, that is enough.  It is the rare person who even wants to understand the fighting aspects, much less really develop the skill.  My sifu is the same.  He is a student of Feng Zhi Qiang in Chen style, but most of his students are people who just want exercise so that is mostly what he teaches and it takes up most of his time.  There are only a handful who have an interest in the fighting aspects and since we are so few, it can be hard to get his time to focus on that.


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## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I think the problem is that Tai Chi is an effective form of exercise, and that is really what people want. For most, that is enough. It is the rare person who even wants to understand the fighting aspects, much less really develop the skill. My sifu is the same. He is a student of Feng Zhi Qiang in Chen style, but most of his students are people who just want exercise so that is mostly what he teaches and it takes up most of his time. There are only a handful who have an interest in the fighting aspects and since we are so few, it can be hard to get his time to focus on that.


 
That is what most likely what I am seeing, but since I currently see only Yang Style, I base it on Yang. 

I did get a chance last fall to basically be the translators translator for Chen Zhenglei and I noticed no one in the room asked about application.

This is not only here, my wife's family asked several people in China about my doing or practicing Yang style when I'm there and most said they only teach Yang style for health. Only one, the oldest (about 70) said that he had not done Yang style as a martial art nor push hands for a long time, non of his students were interested in that, but he would enjoy practicing with me when I am there. I suspect I will get tossed around like a rag doll, but maybe I will feel better about Yang style after I recover.

This however leads me to modify the question even further. 

Is Yang style (or Tai Chi) dying as a martial art?


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## East Winds

Unfortunately Yang style has become so contaminated by the 24, 48, 88 step modern Wushu forms and "made up" rubbish, that I think you are correct. Some of us still teach Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan, in my case via the Yang Zhen Ji lineage. (Back to that old debate again!!!!). Our form  relies heavily on the applicablilty of the postures to the applications. If the posture does not work as an application, clearly it is not correct. We also teach Sword (68 forms) and Sabre (13 forms). Tha Yang Family themselves no longer teach spear form. Or at least if they do, it is only to  a very few students.

However there as some us keeping the tradition alive.

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng

East Winds said:
			
		

> Unfortunately Yang style has become so contaminated by the 24, 48, 88 step modern Wushu forms and "made up" rubbish, that I think you are correct. Some of us still teach Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan, in my case via the Yang Zhen Ji lineage. (Back to that old debate again!!!!). Our form relies heavily on the applicablilty of the postures to the applications. If the posture does not work as an application, clearly it is not correct. We also teach Sword (68 forms) and Sabre (13 forms). Tha Yang Family themselves no longer teach spear form. Or at least if they do, it is only to a very few students.
> 
> However there as some us keeping the tradition alive.
> 
> Very best wishes


 
It is nice to hear some are still keeping the tradition alive. And I will not get into the old debate, I promise.

My teacher was doing very well at keeping the traditions alive, but with in the last 2 years it has become less and less. His lineage, as I have beaten into the ground here, is from the Tung family. This does mean that there are additional forms (2nd fast form and a fast Da Dow form, possibly a second saber form). Master Tung leaned Wu/Hao prior to Yang style and I have read some references to the possibility that he studied with Yang Shou hao prior to Yang Cheng fu. 

My Sifu does know the spear form and a staff form, but he has not yet taught it. And I have to agree with his reasoning, there simply is not enough room in the building and they are best taught outside. 

I have not yet given up on training with him, but I&#8217;m close. As previously mentioned 4 senior students already have. I will continue until the month long break we take every summer and decide then whether or not to return. 

Most unfortunately he is for all intensive purposes the only game in town. All others teach competition forms only. I once went to one of these schools that was offering push hands, I left after 2 classes. I do not consider myself overly skilled, but I was going to hurt someone. They had no idea what they were doing and the person teaching was one that I knocked down, by accident. He told me to try and feel what he was doing and respond, I did (for once, and at the wrong time, fajing was automatic). I apologized and had to restrain myself for the rest of the class.


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## East Winds

Xue Sheng

I worked for a very short time with a Tung style teacher working on Fast Form and Tung Style Sabre. I enjoyed them very much but have not kept them up. I still have too  much to do with Traditional Yang!!!!

It is often said that the Teacher will find the pupil and that was so in my case. I say stick with what you've got. When the time is right the teacher will find you.

I always enjoy your posts

Very best wishes


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## Dronak

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> What do the other Yang stylist think, Tai Chi people and martial artists think?



Well, I suspect that at least some of the arts is dying out, if they haven't been lost already.  As I recall, there was a tendency to keep the innermost, deepest aspects of the art secret, and teachers would only reveal them to a few, carefully chosen students.  If the teachers didn't pass along everything or enough of the secrets, pieces of knowledge are lost.  Maybe they could be rediscovered eventually, but it's kind of a shame that they had to be lost in the first place.

You're probably right that the martial aspects of the art are being neglected now that tai chi has risen to common popularity.  Most people aren't interested in knowing how to fight using tai chi, they want the exercise it provides to help keep them in good health.  I believe the short, standardized forms were created for health/exercise purposes.  Things like that, and studies/reports about the health benefits of practicing tai chi, seem to overshadow the original intent of it being a fighting style.  Since this seems to be the prevailing view, I imagine that teachers who do know the deep martial secrets of the style are less willing to pass them along, probably for fear of them getting into the wrong (untrustworthy) hands.  I can't blame them, of course, but again, it seems a shame that such knowledge gained over centuries may not be passed along for future generations.  I'm not sure there is a clear way to turn things around and bring the martial applications up to the same interest level as the health aspects.

Through my books, I've heard of a variety of other aspects of Yang style tai chi, things like sword and spear forms, as well as ball and ruler training.  I've read about a few types of push hands and a two person fighting set.  I may never learn them (except poorly from books/tapes), but I've at least heard that they exist, in some form.  One book goes into a lot of detail about the martial applications of each major posture in the Yang long form, including the chin na locks, felling moves, and pressure point attacks.  Another is devoted to jin, describing different types and talking about generating energy.  Still there's probably a ton more information that isn't published that I've never heard of.

FWIW, I've learned a long form of Yang tai chi.  Our teacher had it numbered out as 99 moves, but comparing it to forms in books and such, it seems to be basically the same as the 108 or 88 versions -- the difference is essentially in how postures are grouped for counting.  There are some other differences, like we explicitly close each section back to standing upright, but I don't think they're anything huge.  When our teacher taught it, he sometimes referred to applications when he thought they'd help us understand the movements better.  While I may not have seen much of them, I've at least been exposed to some of the applications.  I also did some work with the shorter, standard forms like the 24 and 48 ones, but since I learned the long form, I've basically forgotten the short ones.


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## Dronak

Since we can't edit our posts after a certain period of time, and I just realized I forgot to mention it . . . I believe the Yang style form I learned comes from the Yang Cheng-Fu line.  Our teacher rarely mentioned it, so I'm not absolutely certain, but I think that's what he told us.


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## Xue Sheng

Dronak said:
			
		

> Since we can't edit our posts after a certain period of time, and I just realized I forgot to mention it . . . I believe the Yang style form I learned comes from the Yang Cheng-Fu line. Our teacher rarely mentioned it, so I'm not absolutely certain, but I think that's what he told us.


 
Most good teachers do not talk about it much, I found out by asking.

Most Yang style comes from Yang Cheng fu. It is hard to find a teacher that goes back to Yang Shau-hao, he was a harder teacher, could be cruel, like to fight and had fewer students. But those he had were supposedly very good and he did have at least 1 son.

Also my teacher, although he learned from Sifu Tung still says he teaches Yang style. And I have seen Traditional Yang style (108, depending on how you count)  done by the current Yang family and it looks almost identical to what I have been taught. 

We have or are learning the traditional Yang stuff plus Sifu Tung's additional forms and applications. I do know that the first fast form I learned comes from Yang Cheng Fu, the second one I am suppose to learn comes from Tung Ying Chieh. But I am not sure if both of the Da Dow forms are Traditional Yang or 1 Yang 1 Tung and there are 2 straight sword forms as well. As for push hands I am not sure what I have learned comes from Yang and what comes from Tung, but I suspect most of it comes from Yang; 3 step, 4 corner, stationary 1 hand, stationary 2 hand, etc.

I am beginning to believe that Tung style Tai Chi was named after Tung Ying Chieh died, by his son or grandson but that is a speculation on my part. I will have to talk to my teacher about this sometime.


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## Xue Sheng

East Winds said:
			
		

> Xue Sheng
> It is often said that the Teacher will find the pupil and that was so in my case. I say stick with what you've got. When the time is right the teacher will find you.


 
Many moons ago I had a teacher that knew only forms, yang 24, 48, 32 sword, wu competition, Chen competition, sun, wu/hao, several Kung fu/wushu forms. At one point he had me out teaching Yang style at couple of the local YMCAs. I realized while I was teaching that I could not answer all of my students questions and the few questions I was asked about application I was answering with my previous jujitsu and non-sport TDK background. I wanted to know more so I went to Boston for a seminar with Yang Jwing Ming on push hands. Shortly after my return I ran into a person I had not seen in about a year and he told me about my current teacher. So your statement is probably correct. 

I am beginning to see that if I want to learn more from my teacher, and he does have more to teach me, then I will have to bug the living daylights out of him until he either shows me or kicks me out. 

I look at Tai Chi as a martial art that has great health side effects not the "Tai Chi health dance" that many currently seem to think it is. But it is good to know that there are others out there with the same very.

As for my posts, I will try and keep the incessant whining out of future posts.


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## Yeti

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I wanted to know more so I went to Boston for a seminar with Yang Jwing Ming on push hands.


I'm glad you mentioned Dr. Yang. From what I understand, he is one who certainly does teach Yang Style as a martial art.


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## Dronak

Yang Jwing-Ming is also the author of a few of the books I mentioned in my other post.  There are three that sort of make a set -- one on the long form, one on the martial applications, and one on jin.  I've got all three and like the information in them.


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## Xue Sheng

Yeti said:
			
		

> I'm glad you mentioned Dr. Yang. From what I understand, he is one who certainly does teach Yang Style as a martial art.


 
I recently found out that his lineage, if you will, does not come from Yang Cheng-fu. It comes from Yang Ban-hou, the uncle of Yang Cheng-fu. This would explain why what he does looks more like a martial art and has more, obvious, Qinna and fighting applications. And also why it looks different from the currently accepted Yang family form.

Yang Ban-hou was also the teacher of Yang Shou-hou, Yang Cheng-fu's older brother.

I may just go back and do some studying with Dr Yang.


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## Dronak

Hmm.  This is kind of interesting.  I wonder if the tai chi I learned actually comes from that line then, too.  According to one of my teacher's seniors, he, my teacher, and Yang Jwing-Ming come from the same Long Fist lineage.  I know that's not a guarantee that their tai chi lineage is the same, but it's possible.  I guess it depends on how much tai chi Yang got from the long fist teachers and how much he got from elsewhere.


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## Xue Sheng

Dronak said:
			
		

> Hmm. This is kind of interesting. I wonder if the tai chi I learned actually comes from that line then, too. According to one of my teacher's seniors, he, my teacher, and Yang Jwing-Ming come from the same Long Fist lineage. I know that's not a guarantee that their tai chi lineage is the same, but it's possible. I guess it depends on how much tai chi Yang got from the long fist teachers and how much he got from elsewhere.


 
It is possible. 

Shortly after I went to the push hands seminar with Dr Yang, and this is about 10 years ago, I meant a guy from Taiwan who I found out did some Tai Chi. I was talking to him about the seminar I went to with Yang, when he told me he learned Tai Chi from the same teacher as Dr Yang and at the same time. He asked me to do push hands and after almost ripping me in two twice he said thank you and ended it. I also found out later that he learned Long Fist in Taiwan as well, but I am not sure if they share the same long fist teacher. 

Most unfortunately that was the last time I saw this guy.


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## Xue Sheng

I thought about this last night after going to Tai Chi, and I was not going to post anything about it, but I decided to after all.

Just when I felt things were not as bad as I thought they were with the state of Martial arts and Tai chi, this guy shows up agian.

I guess I am getting back on the soap box.

I am generally pretty tolerant of people, believe it or not, but at Tai Chi 
I think the epitome of the whole, "Martial Tai Chi is dying" issue is 
right in the class with me, the virtual poster boy if you will.  He could also tie into the Qi discussion about someone being able to knock you out with your Qi.

I will not go into great detail, but one of the newer intermediate students who claim to have studied Tai Chi for years and Iron Shirt Chi Gong as well is a good example of what is wrong.

The discussions I have had with this guy, are to me, and the greatest example of the problem. These discussion include, His Tai Chi prowess, his Iron Shirt ability, a guy he knows that could freeze you in your steps just by looking at you and he may even be able to kill you, just with his Qi. Other topics have been, Aliens, Government conspiracies (they are responsible for the tsunami you know), curses involving Hawaii, and the power of crystals. I am generally able to extricate myself from these conversations, but it takes awhile. 

Also I have seen him doing push hands with other intermediate students and basically bullying them and teaching them entirely wrong. Last night I later noticed he was trying and teach other intermediate student Q Gong and a Tai Chi forms. My Sifu just ignored him, which I think is a bad sign.
I have done push hands with him and frankly if he has studied Iron shirt Q Gong and Tai Chi for many years, I couldn't see it or sense it and he doesnt ask me to do push hands anymore.

Last nights class did however bring back a memory of a Tai Chi gathering I use to go to near NYC once a year. The first year was good the second year was good, but the third and last year was not. First let me apologize to anyone that is wearing Tie Dye cloths before I continue, but the third year it was loaded with Crystal sales booths and Tie dye sales booths and aroma therapy, hemp clothing sales and basically the hippie cultural stuff of the 60s. It looked more like the 1st Woodstock than a tai chi gathering. They seemed to be more interested in the politics of peace love and tie dye and the justification of selling hemp clothing than martial arts. Not that there is anything wrong with this, but in my opinion it did not belong there. This I should have taken as a sign of things to come.

OK I'm done


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## Xue Sheng

East Winds said:
			
		

> It is often said that the Teacher will find the pupil and that was so in my case. I say stick with what you've got. When the time is right the teacher will find you.


 
Been awhile since this thread was active, but I wanted to say;

You may be right, although it is not tai chi, I recently, today actually, spoke with someone near me that teaches Xingyi and I had given up on Xingyi of substance being taught anywhere close to me. 

This teacher teaches standing training first, no form no applications, standing. This is also why he has few Xingyi students, to traditional...and possibly just what I am looking for in Xingyi.

I start the end of the month, I&#8217;m a beginner again and I am happy about it.


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## Dronak

That's good to hear.  I'm glad you were able to find the kind of teacher you were looking for.  Good luck with the Xingyi training/practice.


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## CrushingFist

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> After doing a whole lot of research on Yang style tai chi chuan and Taoism I can say that Tai chi makes a little more sense today because of what I read in Taoism. But that research had the opposite effect from what I expected when it comes to Yang style Tai Chi.
> 
> I am more disillusioned and disappointed in Yang style in the 21st century than I was before.
> 
> It is the most widely practiced tai chi in the world but that has caused it to become incredibly watered down. Very few that practice it know anything about the martial arts of the Yang family and many do not even know it was considered a martial art. As one gentleman told me &#8220;I do not DO martial arts, I do tai Chi&#8221;. As if Martial arts was beneath him and tai chi person was superior to that. But then I have also heard a very well trained tai chi sifu, with a good lineage, refer to other martial arts as &#8220;lower forms&#8221; and &#8220;Tai Chi as superior&#8221;.
> 
> I have seen push hands advertised purely as a Qi Gong with emphasis placed on the fact that it had nothing to do with Martial arts.
> 
> Many people doing Yang Tai Chi do not know anything beyond 24, 32 or 48 form Yang style. And they certainly have no idea that there is a fast form, Broad sword forms, straight sword forms, staff forms and a spear form, not to mention the traditional 108 (depending on how you count)
> 
> And there is absolutely nothing wrong with this, practicing their Tai makes them happier and healthier. But all of this is virtually killing Yang style tai chi as a martial art. And to be honest, I am not sure that it isn&#8217;t already too late to resurrect Yang style tai chi.
> 
> Few practice Yang style as a martial art and of those few fewer still know the actual Yang style martial arts. Many take things they learned in other martial arts and apply it to yang style. This can translates into the use of to much force. As for the use of Qinna, and this surprised me, it depends on what your Yang style teacher&#8217;s lineage is. If it comes from Yang Cheng-fu, it is doubtful that they are keeping true to the Yang style of Yang Cheng-fu. Yang Cheng-fu, although incredibly talented and never defeated, removed much of the Qinna. If a teachers lineage goes to Yang Shau-hao (Yang Cheng-fu&#8217;s older brother) then the Qinna is still there, but that lineage is far less prevalent than to Yang Cheng-fu.
> 
> I wrote this in the hope that I can be proven wrong, I have practiced Yang style for a very long time and I have considered giving up the fight.
> 
> What do the other Yang stylist think, Tai Chi people and martial artist&#8217;s think?


 
Great Post man ... I'm with you 







How about that lineage ... By the way I'm reading this article its so good http://aymta.org/home/journal/zqlpt1.html


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## Xue Sheng

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Great Post man ... I'm with you
> 
> 
> 
> How about that lineage ... By the way I'm reading this article its so good http://aymta.org/home/journal/zqlpt1.html


 
I would expect that this traditional Yang Tai Chi form would look a little different than the current Yang style practiced by Yang Zhen Duo, but I do not think it would be all that different. Yang Jianhou changed his father's (Yang Luchan) form a bit and Yang Chengfu changed his father's (Yang Jianhou) form more. 

As for the Yangjia Michuan it looks very different from the Yang of Yang Zhen Duo

Actually the one I am looking for comes from Yang Panhou (aka Yang Binhou) or this is the brother of Yang Jianhou and the uncle of Yang Chengfu and most likely the primary teacher of Yang Cheng Fu's older brother Yang Shaohou.

I may have found it in Boston, but I cannot get there until I return from China.


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## CrushingFist

GoodLUck ... How's China ? Where are you . What ya doing over there


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## Xue Sheng

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> GoodLUck ... How's China ? Where are you . What ya doing over there


 
I'm not there yet, I will be going in a couple months and I will be visiting in-laws.

Boston will not happen until June or February


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## CrushingFist

Oh true, I was going to say you have time to go online in China LOL  

June 2006 and Feb 2007 ?


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## Gaoguy

I would go to Mr. Yang for chang chuan or bai-he. Taiji? Not so much. BTW I think he's moving to Hawaii soon.


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## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> These discussion include, His Tai Chi prowess, his Iron Shirt ability, a guy he knows that could freeze you in your steps just by looking at you and he may even be able to kill you, just with his Qi. Other topics have been, Aliens, Government conspiracies (they are responsible for the tsunami you know), curses involving Hawaii, and the power of crystals.


 
I had a kid once tell me that his friend did the Death Touch on him.  I suggested that perhaps his friend wasn't very good at it.


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## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I had a kid once tell me that his friend did the Death Touch on him. I suggested that perhaps his friend wasn't very good at it.


 
So as I sit here laughing in front of my computer and looking at my wife who thinks I have gone crazy.

This is so funny it hurts...don't do this to me.


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## Xue Sheng

Gaoguy said:
			
		

> I would go to Mr. Yang for chang chuan or bai-he. Taiji? Not so much. BTW I think he's moving to Hawaii soon.


 
Now that I have stopped laughing at the death touch comment..

Which Mr Yang is moving to Hawaii? Yang Zhen Duo?


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## Gaoguy

Yang Jwingming


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## Xue Sheng

Gaoguy said:
			
		

> Yang Jwingming


 
Actually I know he has something set up in California, but I did not hear about Hawaii.

As for studying Yang style with him, his Yang lineage does not go to Yang Chengfu, it goes to Yang Binhou and to be honest, I am so tired of the excepted Traditional Yang form and all the baggage that is now coming with it, anything would be a welcome change.

And at least the martial arts are still intact, although I do see some kung fu in his Tai Chi but he is basically a White Crane guy after all.

I would chuck it all and go Chen if a good Chen guy was near where I lived and who knows I may just go back to Xingyi and stay there now that I may have a teacher.

And to be entirely honest here, I am getting fairly tired of the whole internal martial arts issues that popup with the charlatans, the spirituality seekers and the new age people that Xingyi may be the better choice. Xingyi currently seems less vulnerable do to its lack of pretty moves and harder internal training in the beginning and the look that it may actually be for combat. True Tai Chi is all but gone and I fear for Bagua too.

Prior to finding the possible Xingyi teacher I had considered giving it all up and going to check out the Jeet kun do school that opened up near me, but that would be a major change from what I currently train and have trained for the last 15 years.

But the reality is I have been in Yang style Tai Chi for almost 15 years and I will probably stick with it, but while I can, I will study with Dr Yang, I have studied push hands with him in the past and I was fairly impressed by his ability, particularly his Qin Na skill. 

And it all comes down to a matter of personnel opinion after all.


----------



## pete

> Actually I know he has something set up in California, but I did not hear about Hawaii.


it is california, in the redwoods area where 'return of the jedi' was filmed. dr yang has world wide seminars through 2006, but i do not know what lies beyond that, although i've heard he intends to return to boston periodically.  here is his web site: http://www.ymaaschool.com/training/seminars/world/world.php



> I am getting fairly tired of the whole internal martial arts issues that popup with the charlatans, the spirituality seekers and the new age people that Xingyi may be the better choice. Xingyi currently seems less vulnerable do to its lack of pretty moves and harder internal training in the beginning and the look that it may actually be for combat. True Tai Chi is all but gone and I fear for Bagua too.


 
my bagua teacher says tai chi is calculus, bagua is geometry, and xingyi is business math. i have yet to explore xingyi, but will do so eventually. 

all is not lost... you just have to look in the right places!  dr yang is one of those places, but he is hardly the only place. 

the crux of the problem is that the internal arts are counter-intuitive and require not only dedicated training, but a sense of trust and perserverance in the system and your instructor.  blended with today's world of immediate gratification and limitless options and, well, people just want to be lied to.  so some instructors will lie to their students by removing the essence of the art and teach them how to wave their arms about, or replace the difficult nature of fighting within the internal arts paradigm with more direct techniques from a shaolin or even japanese style. 

the truth is out there...

pete


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## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> So as I sit here laughing in front of my computer and looking at my wife who thinks I have gone crazy.
> 
> This is so funny it hurts...don't do this to me.


 
Thought you'd appreciate that one.


----------



## bushidomartialarts

Our tai chi instructor knows the Yang long, the broadsword and straight sword forms and a couple others he hasn't gotten around to teaching yet.  I think there are many talented Yang instructors out there who are keeping the art alive.

On t'other hand, isn't an art only truly dead if it no longer develops and grows?  Tai Chi in general seems (in the you ess of ay, at any rate) to be moving away from the loooooong forms and into the shorter forms that can be learned in a year and practiced in ten minutes.  The new Yang in 8 form is evidence that the Yang style is still growing and changing, and thus very much alive.

Whether or not the changes are for the best, or congruent with your (or my) personal tastes and preferences is an entirely different matter.  But dead?  Naw.


----------



## Xue Sheng

pete said:
			
		

> my bagua teacher says tai chi is calculus, bagua is geometry, and xingyi is business math. i have yet to explore xingyi, but will do so eventually.
> 
> all is not lost... you just have to look in the right places! dr yang is one of those places, but he is hardly the only place.
> 
> the crux of the problem is that the internal arts are counter-intuitive and require not only dedicated training, but a sense of trust and perserverance in the system and your instructor. blended with today's world of immediate gratification and limitless options and, well, people just want to be lied to. so some instructors will lie to their students by removing the essence of the art and teach them how to wave their arms about, or replace the difficult nature of fighting within the internal arts paradigm with more direct techniques from a shaolin or even japanese style.
> 
> the truth is out there...
> 
> pete


 
I have heard it said in a similar way, you start with Xingyi you then go to bagua and end with Tai Chi.

I agree with what you are saying. And I do not know if you have read any of my other rants about tai chi, but the crux of my problem is that my long time teacher, who is very skilled and very well trained and has a very good lineage changed. He use to train tai chi for martial arts in his intermediate /advanced class and his beginner class if you wanted the only the health stuff you stayed there. 

The intermediate/advanced class was always smaller than the beginner but within the last 2 years he has moved a lot of people to my class who have no interest in Push hands or martial arts and are applying outside philosophies to it and forcing the discontinuation of push hands and marital applications. He is allowing this to happen and after loosing 50% or greater of his senior students ( I am one of the last 3 and I know one other is considering leaving as well) and after repeated discussions with him about this and his statements that he will continue to teacher MA in Tai Chi, it gets only worse. So after much thinking I have decided to no longer go to his class. He now has only 2 senior students. 

And he is only 1 of 2 people in my area that is this skilled. The other may or may not be in the area any longer and does not tell anyone of his skill. I ran into him once many years ago and I can not locate him now. So off to Boston I go. When I first went to Dr Yang he was my 2nd teacher and I stopped going to him when I found my 3rd and current teacher that I just left. My 1st teacher was a wushu guy.


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## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Thought you'd appreciate that one.


 
I did, although my wife still thinks I'm crazy, but that may or may not have anything to do with the laughing in front of the computer incident.


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## Xue Sheng

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> Our tai chi instructor knows the Yang long, the broadsword and straight sword forms and a couple others he hasn't gotten around to teaching yet. I think there are many talented Yang instructors out there who are keeping the art alive.
> 
> On t'other hand, isn't an art only truly dead if it no longer develops and grows? Tai Chi in general seems (in the you ess of ay, at any rate) to be moving away from the loooooong forms and into the shorter forms that can be learned in a year and practiced in ten minutes. The new Yang in 8 form is evidence that the Yang style is still growing and changing, and thus very much alive.
> 
> Whether or not the changes are for the best, or congruent with your (or my) personal tastes and preferences is an entirely different matter. But dead? Naw.


 
Actually my main concern is that it is dead as a martial art.

And I have no problem with any other shortening or changing of the form if the martial arts remain intact, but they do not in most cases. Also to learn the depth of Tai Chi as a martial art or for health or that matter takes years not minutes. And in Yang style, which I do (there are Tung influences by the way in my style) there is a long form, short fast form, sort sword form. Long fast sword form, long saber form and a shorter saber form a staff form and a spear form Stationary Push Hands, 3 step push hands, four corner push hands and freestyle push hands. 
I do not consider any shortened forms such as 24 or 48, although I do know them, as Tai Chi for martial arts, although there are martial applications there. However I believe you would be hard pressed to find someone that taught 24 or 48 that knew real Tai Chi applications.

So I guess I could say Tai Chi is not dead, but I do feel it has changed for the worse if your goal is the whole package, including the martial arts.


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## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I did, although my wife still thinks I'm crazy, but that may or may not have anything to do with the laughing in front of the computer incident.


 
Not to hijack the thread here, but it is just amazing what people say sometimes.  If they would just stop for a moment and think about what they are saying before they say it, it would be so much better.

But like they say: It is better to let the world _think _that you are a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt...


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## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Not to hijack the thread here, but it is just amazing what people say sometimes. If they would just stop for a moment and think about what they are saying before they say it, it would be so much better.
> 
> But like they say: It is better to let the world _think _that you are a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt...


 
Agreed


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## CrushingFist

Xue Sheng.. come to NYC


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## bushidomartialarts

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Actually my main concern is that it is dead as a martial art.
> 
> I do not consider any shortened forms such as 24 or 48, although I do know them, as Tai Chi for martial arts, although there are martial applications there. However I believe you would be hard pressed to find someone that taught 24 or 48 that knew real Tai Chi applications.
> 
> So I guess I could say Tai Chi is not dead, but I do feel it has changed for the worse if your goal is the whole package, including the martial arts.



given that set of definitions, i agree with you.  what do you suppose has led to the -- is 'abandonment' the right word here -- of martial application of the tai chi?  

is it a market thing?  people in the us tend to think of tai chi as meditation, 'karate for hippies', someone said once.  folks who want to fight don't generally think of tai chi.  that could influence how it's been taught.

there are other places where that's happening.  the whole XMA thing is turning kata into dance, for example.


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## Xue Sheng

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Xue Sheng.. come to NYC


 
Thanks, can't, wife, kids work take priority.


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## Xue Sheng

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> is it a market thing? people in the us tend to think of tai chi as meditation, 'karate for hippies', someone said once. folks who want to fight don't generally think of tai chi. that could influence how it's been taught.
> 
> there are other places where that's happening. the whole XMA thing is turning kata into dance, for example.



All of the above. I heard from a long time Yang Style teacher in Beijing, and he even said none of his students want to know anything about martial arts, they just want exercise.

I have learned a lot of the martial arts of Tai Chi, but since my teacher changed push hands practice have even stopped. 

With the onslaught of health seekers it is much more lucrative to teach Tai Chi for health than martial arts. With the New Agers it is much more lucrative to let them philosophize, chant do Qi Gong and look down on martial arts as something lesser than what they do. And, most unfortunately the truth is it is by far easier on the teacher. 

Like I have said many times, and I am trying to find this article to post the link, there is a Chen style martial artist, trained by the Chen family and I believe he is currently in Beijing. He said that of all of the people doing Tai Chi in the world today he believes that only 5% know anything about the martial arts.

I use to teach Tai Chi, I quit for two reasons, one I did not feel at the time I had enough of an understanding to properly answer my students questions, two I lost students when I said Tai Chi was in reality a martial art.and that is all that I said, I wasn't even suggesting at that point teaching them any applications or push hands.

I use to teach Tai Chi, I quit for two reasons, one I did not feel at the time I had enough of an understanding to properly answer my students questions, two I lost students when I said Tai Chi was in reality a martial art. And that is all that I said, I wasn't even suggesting at that point teaching them any applications or push hands.

I once heard this from a person who claimed to be very knowledgeable about Tai Chi, and I quote: "I don't DO martial arts I DO Tai Chi"


----------



## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> He said that of all of the people doing Tai Chi in the world today he believes that only 5% know anything about the martial arts.
> 
> I lost students when I said Tai Chi was in reality a martial art. And that is all that I said, I wasn't even suggesting at that point teaching them any applications or push hands.


 
I would certainly agree with the above first statement.

I do practice tai chi, but I don't fool myself about my level of understanding.  While my sifu does know the fighting aspects of the art, most of his students are also people who just want excercise so it is hard for those few of us who want to learn the combat aspects to do so.  

What I do find amazing is when people fool themselves into thinking that they have some solid fighting skills just because they practice a certain style like Chen Tai Chi, or some kind of Bagua.  They seem to think that the art itself is magical and just because they practice the movements (usually poorly) then they will be able to fight if they ever need to.  Like it's gonna just happen and everything will magically fall into place if they ever are attacked.  These people are fooling themselves and I hope they never need to find out the hard way.  

When people ask me what I do, I simply say "kung fu".  If they ask what kind, I include Tai Chi as one style of kung fu that I practice.  Sometimes they understand, sometimes they don't.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I do practice tai chi, but I don't fool myself about my level of understanding. While my sifu does know the fighting aspects of the art, most of his students are also people who just want excercise so it is hard for those few of us who want to learn the combat aspects to do so.


 
My Sifu use to teach things separately if you didn't want the martial arts, fine, he would teach you form and the Qi training. If you wanted martial arts, great, you learned form, Qi plus additional Qi aspects, push hands, and applications. However the later no longer happens, now it is only for health. 

And I have a lot to learn yet, I am far from a master. 



			
				Flying Crane said:
			
		

> What I do find amazing is when people fool themselves into thinking that they have some solid fighting skills just because they practice a certain style like Chen Tai Chi, or some kind of Bagua. They seem to think that the art itself is magical and just because they practice the movements (usually poorly) then they will be able to fight if they ever need to. Like it's gonna just happen and everything will magically fall into place if they ever are attacked. These people are fooling themselves and I hope they never need to find out the hard way.
> 
> When people ask me what I do, I simply say "kung fu". If they ask what kind, I include Tai Chi as one style of kung fu that I practice. Sometimes they understand, sometimes they don't.


 
You are so right. 

My very first Chinese martial arts teacher was a straight Wushu guy and he had students that could list the martial arts they had learned from him as Xingyi, Bagua, Shaolin Long fist, Chen, Yang, Wu, Mantis, Eagle claw, etc. and they went off to impress people with all that they knew. However when it came right down to it they knew how to dance, but fighting...no. As I am sure you well know, there is a big difference between doing a form and real world confrontations and I truly hope none of them ever had to find that out the hard way.

There is an old joke that comes to mind when I think about this and I promise I will not reference jokes often, or possibly ever again

A guy goes to a Karate school and gets his black belt, he is so impressed by himself he gets in his car and goes driving around looking for someone to fight. A truck cuts him off in traffic and he chases the truck until it stops. He pulls up to the truck jumps out of his car and yells KARATE&#8230;the truck drive gets out of his truck and yells MONKEY WRENCH&#8230;


----------



## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> My very first Chinese martial arts teacher was a straight Wushu guy and he had students that could list the martial arts they had learned from him as Xingyi, Bagua, Shaolin Long fist, Chen, Yang, Wu, Mantis, Eagle claw, etc. and they went off to impress people with all that they knew. However when it came right down to it they knew how to dance, but fighting...no. As I am sure you well know, there is a big difference between doing a form and real world confrontations and I truly hope none of them ever had to find that out the hard way.


 
Ya know, the more I think about this, the more I think it comes down to an issue of responsibility.  In truth, we are all responsible for our own learning and our own training.  While our sifu has a responsibility to teach quality material and information or else not be a sifu, ultimately the responsibility is our own to be in charge of what we learn.

If a sifu CANNOT teach to the quality that we want, then we need to go elsewhere.  If we believe that our sifu CAN teach to the quality that we want but does not due to reasons like pandering to the masses who only want exercise, then it is our responsibility to get the information from him if we want to stay with him.  Let him teach the masses, but ask questions on the side.  Then, GO PRACTICE, BY YOURSELF AND WITH ANYONE ELSE WHO IS WITH YOU ON THIS.  Drill the applications on your own.  It is not the sifu's responsibility to see that you do this.  If you want to develop this skill, then it is your own responsibility to do this.  If the sifu has given you the information, it is now up to you to do something with it.  Check in with him to get corrections and more information, but we must accept the fact that if we are to improve and develop this skill then we often must do it ourselves.

With regard to your comments above, it is true if one only learns form and no application then it is only so much "dance" and exercise.  Even the most hardcore and effective Chinese martial arts can be done as a hollow dance if application is not developed.  In this case it would be little different from Modern Wushu, only not quite as fancy and pretty.

But if someone knows all this stuff as form, they can take that form and develop the useage of the material in the form.  But again, it is their own responsibility to do this.  The sifu has given the information. What the student does with it is his own choice, and the student will have to live with those consequences, either good or bad.

One could take just one form (say a Shaolin form, for example) and dissect it and drill the applications, and from that alone could become a fierce fighter.  It really takes very little material to become a good fighter, if that material is done well.  My sifu always says that in Tibetan White Crane, one only needs the first three punches, Chien Choi, Pau Choi, and Khap Choi for fighting.  If you are really good with these and can switch them up quickly and overwhelm your opponent with them, then you need little else.

Just thinking out loud here, maybe some of this makes sense...


----------



## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Ya know, the more I think about this, the more I think it comes down to an issue of responsibility. In truth, we are all responsible for our own learning and our own training. While our sifu has a responsibility to teach quality material and information or else not be a sifu, ultimately the responsibility is our own to be in charge of what we learn.
> 
> If a sifu CANNOT teach to the quality that we want, then we need to go elsewhere. If we believe that our sifu CAN teach to the quality that we want but does not due to reasons like pandering to the masses who only want exercise, then it is our responsibility to get the information from him if we want to stay with him. Let him teach the masses, but ask questions on the side. Then, GO PRACTICE, BY YOURSELF AND WITH ANYONE ELSE WHO IS WITH YOU ON THIS. Drill the applications on your own. It is not the sifu's responsibility to see that you do this. If you want to develop this skill, then it is your own responsibility to do this. If the sifu has given you the information, it is now up to you to do something with it. Check in with him to get corrections and more information, but we must accept the fact that if we are to improve and develop this skill then we often must do it ourselves.
> 
> With regard to your comments above, it is true if one only learns form and no application then it is only so much "dance" and exercise. Even the most hardcore and effective Chinese martial arts can be done as a hollow dance if application is not developed. In this case it would be little different from Modern Wushu, only not quite as fancy and pretty.
> 
> But if someone knows all this stuff as form, they can take that form and develop the useage of the material in the form. But again, it is their own responsibility to do this. The sifu has given the information. What the student does with it is his own choice, and the student will have to live with those consequences, either good or bad.
> 
> One could take just one form (say a Shaolin form, for example) and dissect it and drill the applications, and from that alone could become a fierce fighter. It really takes very little material to become a good fighter, if that material is done well. My sifu always says that in Tibetan White Crane, one only needs the first three punches, Chien Choi, Pau Choi, and Khap Choi for fighting. If you are really good with these and can switch them up quickly and overwhelm your opponent with them, then you need little else.
> 
> Just thinking out loud here, maybe some of this makes sense...


 
Actually it all makes very good sense and I fully agree with you. 

My Tai Chi teacher has said something similar about Tai Chi in regards to what one needs from Tai Chi to be a good martial artist. All that is needed is an understanding of the 13 postures. And I am grateful he gave me training in them. 

And I agree, if a student learns, for example, long fist and trains it and learns to understand it he or she could become very accomplished fighter using what they have learned. 

And there use to be a lot of people around that were martial artist in different styles and I use to train with them, and it does wonders for your push hands if you train with Karate people, Aikido people, Kung fu and Taekwondo people. But we all get older and gain more responsibilities so that option is no longer available.

And you are absolutely correct if the Sifu is not, will not or cannot teach what the student wants it is the responsibility of the student to find what he/she is looking for. It has taken me 2 years of thinking about this to come to the decision that I must leave. I have done what I can and discussed this with my teacher at length and it continues to get worse. So it is then up to me to either shut up and deal with it or move on. 

My first teacher although he is a wushu person I owe a lot to, he did get me started in Chinese Martial arts and he did introduce me to Tai Chi, Xingyi and Bagua and I still talk to him from time to time. My second Teacher also taught me a lot although it was very brief, due to distance (although I am fairly certain I will be going back there soon). And my most recent teacher taught me a lot as well and I do honestly believe that training is rare today and I am lucky to have been able to learn from him. I greatly appreciate the Tung influence of the Yang Style I have been training with my Sifu. But as hard as the decision was it is simply time to go. 

I have an appointment in Beijing to get my butt kicked by an old (long-time, possibly 50 to 60 years training) Yang style guy in May. He wants to do push hands with me when I am there. And I recently found another rare (at least in my area) teacher, a Xingyi teacher that is trying to get a class started and by the sounds of it he knows what he is doing (the first thing you start learning is stance training and Xingyi theory, forms come later). I start there the end of the month. 

Also my current teacher is talking about opening a full time school and if he does I will go check it out. 

And a strange side effect of deciding it was time to go, I feel like training more, so I do.


----------



## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> But we all get older and gain more responsibilities so that option is no longer available.
> 
> I have done what I can and discussed this with my teacher at length and it continues to get worse. So it is then up to me to either shut up and deal with it or move on.


 
Very true, and very true.  Sometimes leaving is the only choice to find what you need, but make sure you take with you the good things that you learned from this teacher.  Just because you may no longer be with him, you still did learn good things from him.  Keep that as part of your own training, don't throw it away just because you aren't with him anymore.

With regards to my earlier comments about responsibility:  You are probably already familiar with this, but I think the traditional method of teaching in Chinese arts was very student-motivated.  The sifu showed something, then the student practiced while the teacher did other things.  It is a Western mentality that requires a teacher to be up front, leading the workout while the students simply turn off their brain and mimick the movement without thinking about what it means.

My sifu tells me about when he learned Tibetan Crane from his uncle.  His uncle would show him two or three moves, then go in the back and read the newspaper.  My sifu had to simply practice over and over.  Then, an hour later, his uncle would come back out and demand to be shown what progress he made.  His uncle would then give some corrections, maybe show a little more, and go back in to read the paper some more.  I have heard similar stories from people who have trained with other traditional-minded sifus.   If the student didn't have motivation to train, he would go absolutely nowhere.  This kind of training can be disasterous for many people in the West, because it is so foreign to our notion of how a learning environment functions.  

I guess this is where we must dig deep ourselves to understand what we have been shown, and develop an ability to learn it.  But the Sifu still needs to be willing to play out his role in the relationship, and if he isn't then nothing can be learned.

Even tho a sifu may be pandering more and more to the exercise and new-age crowd, if he is still willing to take a moment and show you the real stuff on the side then maybe the relationship doesn't have to end.

Sounds like you have struggled with this for some time.  Good luck, and I hope you find the right thing for you, wherever that may be.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> With regards to my earlier comments about responsibility: You are probably already familiar with this, but I think the traditional method of teaching in Chinese arts was very student-motivated. The sifu showed something, then the student practiced while the teacher did other things. It is a Western mentality that requires a teacher to be up front, leading the workout while the students simply turn off their brain and mimick the movement without thinking about what it means.
> My sifu tells me about when he learned Tibetan Crane from his uncle. His uncle would show him two or three moves, then go in the back and read the newspaper. My sifu had to simply practice over and over. Then, an hour later, his uncle would come back out and demand to be shown what progress he made. His uncle would then give some corrections, maybe show a little more, and go back in to read the paper some more. I have heard similar stories from people who have trained with other traditional-minded sifus. If the student didn't have motivation to train, he would go absolutely nowhere. This kind of training can be disasterous for many people in the West, because it is so foreign to our notion of how a learning environment functions.
> 
> I guess this is where we must dig deep ourselves to understand what we have been shown, and develop an ability to learn it. But the Sifu still needs to be willing to play out his role in the relationship, and if he isn't then nothing can be learned.


 
This is very true, when I go back to study with my second Sifu (also Yang style but from a different lineage) it will be very much this way, see him for several hours a day, for 2 or 3 days, about 2 or 4 times a year. I currently am also learning San Da in that way, very very slowly by Western standards. 

Actually I thought it was going to be to much with everything else, and it is far from what I have trained, but I know the teacher, although I did not know until recently he had studied San Da for so long, he tells no one, but he got to know me and then wanted to teach me San Da and since he does not teach anyone he feels will miss use it, I couldn&#8217;t say no. 

He has been teaching me in much the same way, shows me 1 or 2 things (basically go hit a tree like this, go do pullups like this, go do front snap kicks like this) makes sure I am doing them correctly and then doesn't show me anything else for about a month. I was very hard to get use to in the beginning, being a Westerner, but I am finding that I rather like it. This has been going on now for only 3 months, I am feared by trees everywhere.



			
				Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Even tho a sifu may be pandering more and more to the exercise and new-age crowd, if he is still willing to take a moment and show you the real stuff on the side then maybe the relationship doesn't have to end.
> Sounds like you have struggled with this for some time. Good luck, and I hope you find the right thing for you, wherever that may be.


 
It actually was this way for awhile, and I had no problem with that, but it all stopped last summer just before our usual 4 week break, when I was talking to him about, not asking him to teach, Tung Ying Chieh's fast form and he said no one else is ready. All of the additional training stopped after that. I was able to do some some push hands with him once sense then and was then told "next week you start the fast form" (Tung's) and the following week he was teaching the entire class a saber form, because it is easier to teach the whole group, with no mention of Tung's form.

So now we do a saber form, that no one practices, so I end up teaching the class over and over again it after he has finished so he can go help someone that missed a class or two. Which is generally ok, but when I ask about push hands or anything else I have noticed the sword class goes longer. I truly hold nothing against him, and like I said, I am grateful for what he has taught me and I will continue to practice, I just feel that it is time to leave.

However I am not burning any bridges, I just said I am taking some time off. If he does open a full time school I will go back to see what it is like. Also he has 2 senior students left, one is close to leaving however, I can still contact them to find out what is going on.

And Thank you


----------



## Flying Crane

What is San Da?  I haven't heard of this.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> What is San Da? I haven't heard of this.


 
I asked the same question when he said San Da. 

It is San Shou, he calls it San Da, it's older terminology and that is what his teacher always called it, when he was learning in the North of China. I have no idea were his teacher learned it.

He does not know the fighting in the ring version, he was never trained how to fight in the ring, it is the police/military version. 

Very external training for this old internal martial artist.


----------



## CrushingFist

Well Tai Chi like most people are calling its just Health exercises ?

Now Tai Chi Chuan | Taijiquan , must be everything Meditation, Health and Martial.


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## Dronak

I'm not sure if you were asking or telling, CrushingFist, but yes, I think you're right.  From what I can tell, "tai chi chuan" or "taijiquan" is normally only used to refer to the whole art, including all the internal aspects and martial applications.  "Tai chi" is often used to refer to practicing a form, mainly meant for exercise and health purposes.  However, "tai chi" is also a shorter form of "tai chi chuan", so it can also be used to refer to martial applications and such.  I suspect most people around here studying the art will use "tai chi" instead of "tai chi chuan" (or "taijiquan") to mean everything, not just health exercises.  I doubt people would be on a martial art web board if they didn't at least recognize the martial aspects of tai chi.


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## 7starmantis

Yeah, too much work saying and writting Taijiquan all the time. Plus, it can be a sign of the "overboard" type people if they use the full termonology so strictly.

7sm


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## Xue Sheng

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Well Tai Chi like most people are calling its just Health exercises ?
> 
> Now Tai Chi Chuan | Taijiquan , must be everything Meditation, Health and Martial.


 
Tai Chi is the same as Tai Chi Chuan which is the same as Taijiquan. Just different spellings and shortening of the name. Also depending on whether the spelling you use is pinyin or Wade Giles.

The only difference is that "A Tai Chi" is also the avatar that I use and that you have spinning.

Tai Chi is a martial art, all forms within a Tai Chi form have applications, and many have several applications.

The postures however is all you really need to know and know well for martial applications.

There are different forms in every style.

Chen has at leas 4 empty had forms of varying speed

Yang has a long slow empty hand form and a short fast empty hand form

All also have weapons forms, sword, broad sword, spear, staff.


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## Nebuchadnezzar

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> ...As for the Yangjia Michuan it looks very different from the Yang of Yang Zhen Duo....


 
Since you are or were in China, what about Yang Zhen Guo?  He's Yang Zhen Duo's younger brother.  Does his differ from the others?

I'm getting ready to start Tai Chi and my instructor to be is the student of one of Yang Zhen Guo's students.


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## Nebuchadnezzar

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> given that set of definitions, i agree with you. what do you suppose has led to the -- is 'abandonment' the right word here -- of martial application of the tai chi?
> 
> is it a market thing? people in the us tend to think of tai chi as meditation, 'karate for hippies', someone said once. folks who want to fight don't generally think of tai chi. that could influence how it's been taught.
> 
> there are other places where that's happening. the whole XMA thing is turning kata into dance, for example.


 
By comparison, Tai Chi is hard and Karate is easy.  Tai Chi takes serious study and time to learn where as it takes a short time to learn how to use Karate.  Most people in the US want the easy thing.  In regards to Tai Chi here, it's the lack of dedication issue.  You have people teaching Tai Chi who only learned enough to make it a workout (health and mind) and then they charge people to be their New Age or Holistic guru.


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## Xue Sheng

Nebuchadnezzar said:
			
		

> Since you are or were in China, what about Yang Zhen Guo? He's Yang Zhen Duo's younger brother. Does his differ from the others?
> 
> I'm getting ready to start Tai Chi and my instructor to be is the student of one of Yang Zhen Guo's students.


 
I am not certain, most likely the lineage comes from Yang Chengfu, were is, or was, Yang Zhen Guo living? There was a son of Yang Chengfu still alive and living in Hong Kong the last I knew. He was supposedly better trained that his younger brother Yang Zhen Dou. But I am not sure of his name.

Also how old is Yang Zhen Guo? Yang Zhen Duo is the youngest.


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## Xue Sheng

One final thing.

When I first put this post up I was not certain if Yang Style Tai Chi was truly dead as a marital art. Ever since my trip to China I am thoroughly convinced that it is, or soon will be. 

Face it we are hopelessly outnumbered.

There are a few of us diehards still practicing Yang as an MA, and as far as I can tell all of on MT that train Traditional Yang style are. However there are so few of us that do practice it as an MA by comparison to the heath and spiritual people that I believe the state of true traditional Yang style is at best terminal. 

In the parks in Beijing I saw few Chen stylists and Wu stylists, but they all looked very good and very serious. I even saw 1 Sun stylist, but never doing Sun I cannot judge how good or bad he was. 

However I saw hundreds of people doing Yang style 24 being taught by teachers that were way to stiff or just plain wrong. I only saw 3 older gentlemen (between 60 and 70) doing traditional Yang style. If you divide the traditional by the hundreds doing 24 you get a number so close to zero, mathematically it could be considered zero. 

Add to this my former teacher who 12 years ago was angered by competition Yang and the people teaching that did not know the art and that were not teaching push hands or the martial arts. A teacher that was entirely against the use of music in the class because it distracted from the training and he turned into all he despised to gain students. 

He does know the art but will no longer teach any depth and he has lost all of his senior students but there are a bunch of people that bring in videos of other styles to watch, stand around talking about the power of crystals that abhor violence (and of course all things martial art are violent). Their form is bad their understanding is shallow and to see what this class and this teacher has become is extremely sad. The last I heard he was being pressured by his new senior students to start playing music.

These 2 things together thoroughly convince me that the MA people of Yang style are a dying breed, we are going extinct and when we go or give in the art is one step closer to dead, but in the end I feel it will die. 

Now this being said, I have never been one to lie down and let things roll over me. I have never followed the crowd and I do not intend to give up now, I&#8217;m too old and to stubborn to do that, although when I first posted this I was considering it. I would like to thank the MT people for showing me how silly I was being for even thinking that. 

 I will still train the MA side of Yang style and if I go back to teaching I will, as I did before, make all my students aware that it is a martial art. I will not force anyone to learn the martial arts side but I will not stop teaching it to those that want to know just because someone is offended by what they perceive as violence. I am looking into continuing my training with another teacher who is supposedly equally as good or better than my teacher was, the downside, he is considerably further away, 4 hours to be exact, so it would be once a month and an all day deal, but time will tell. 

I once had a guy tell say to me &#8220;I do NOT do martial arts, I DO Tai Chi&#8221; back then I just thought he was an arrogant idiot and I walked away from him. Today he is more representative of the people playing at Tai Chi, hopefully I still have the calmness to walk away from him and not tell him he is an arrogant idiot, should we ever cross paths again&#8230;part of me hopes I don&#8217;t. 

To those of you still training Traditional Yang with the Martial Arts intact. :asian: 

To those of you practicing Yang style for other reasons I wish you all the best.


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## CrushingFist

such a good post man, I have to agree with you ..


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## pstarr

I agree!  And I still teach Taiji as a MARTIAL art...not simply as a health maintenance exercise, a touchy-feely all fuzzy inside routine, or an exotic form of getting in touch with your inner self.

Nope.  To me it's a MARTIAL art or nothing at all...


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## CrushingFist

All the good things taijiquan talks about when I read about it, then its so hard to find a good teacher that will teach taijiquan as a whole without forgetting anything, I've read that 1 cant be done properly without the other, so excluding the martial or excluding the spiritual will not benefit you as much as if you would practice it as it really is martial the spiritual side will follow along and both combined will include health right? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T'ai_Chi_Ch'uan Like it says there, Martial, Meditation and Health


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## Xue Sheng

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> All the good things taijiquan talks about when I read about it, then its so hard to find a good teacher that will teach taijiquan as a whole without forgetting anything, I've read that 1 cant be done properly without the other, so excluding the martial or excluding the spiritual will not benefit you as much as if you would practice it as it really is martial the spiritual side will follow along and both combined will include health right?


 
BINGO!!! 

If you train Tai Chi MA form a qualified, knowledgeable teacher it is all there, it is intrinsic.

But it is moving mediation, it is for health, it is to slow to be a MA, it is non-violent, it is all about the spirituality, it is for heath......nope! It's a martial art and if you train the martial art of Tai Chi with a teacher that know what he or she is doing and what Tai Chi is, you will gain health, you will gain a type of understanding and you will be damn good at defending yourself too. 

Pardon the philosophical tone, but if you cut the root the tree will die, if you remove the bark the tree will die and Tai Chi, particularly Yang is dying. Remove any of its parts and it becomes something other than Tai Chi. I did a post on Tai Chi Chih once, this is not tai Chi, nor do they claim to be, but if you remove the Martial Art from Tai Chi it becomes Tai Chi Chih or Qigong for heath...not tai chi.

You have a bunch of people running around claiming great lineages, and they have them, but they never did learn the true art. I once talked to the recognized head of one of the Tai Chi families (not Yang) and I got the impression that he would teach very different in America than he does in China. In his opinion most Americans do not want to know Tai Chi, it's just a hobby to them, they just want to be able to say they trained with him and go off and teach it as a health practice that is it. If any of those Americans really wanted to learn real Tai Chi they would go to him in China.

But Yang style is dying world wide, mainly due to a martialartsectomy, and as long as we can we need to keep it alive, but it will eventually die....Just not because of me.


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## East Winds

Xue Sheng,

Don't lose heart. There are some of us here in the UK (students of Coach Christopher Pei of the US Wushu Academy) who are learning and teaching Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan as a martial art.  Our lineage (and teachings) come from Yang Zhen Ji (2nd son of Yang Cheng-fu) who is still alive and teaching in China. Coach Pei is a lineaged Master, confered by Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zhen Duo. 

As for the question about Yang Zhen Guo, he was the fourth son of Yang Chen-fu therefore the youngest son. (There were four sons : Yang Zhen Ming who went to Hong Kong and only produced daughters some of whom are still teaching his form, Yang Zhen Ji who had no family, Yang Zhen Duo who adopted two sons, Yang Dao Fang who's son is Yang Jun and Yang De Fang. The fourth son (Yang Zhen Guo) stayed in China but as far as I know did little teaching. He produced Yang Yong Fang, Yang Jun Fang, Yang Juan Fang and Yang Hong Fang. I don't know if they teach.

Sorry for the long reply but hope this fills in some of the direct Yang Family tree for you.

Keep pushing Yang taijiquan. we are certainly doing so in the UK

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng

East Winds said:
			
		

> Xue Sheng,
> 
> Don't lose heart. There are some of us here in the UK (students of Coach Christopher Pei of the US Wushu Academy) who are learning and teaching Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan as a martial art. Our lineage (and teachings) come from Yang Zhen Ji (2nd son of Yang Cheng-fu) who is still alive and teaching in China. Coach Pei is a lineaged Master, confered by Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zhen Duo.
> 
> As for the question about Yang Zhen Guo, he was the fourth son of Yang Chen-fu therefore the youngest son. (There were four sons : Yang Zhen Ming who went to Hong Kong and only produced daughters some of whom are still teaching his form, Yang Zhen Ji who had no family, Yang Zhen Duo who adopted two sons, Yang Dao Fang who's son is Yang Jun and Yang De Fang. The fourth son (Yang Zhen Guo) stayed in China but as far as I know did little teaching. He produced Yang Yong Fang, Yang Jun Fang, Yang Juan Fang and Yang Hong Fang. I don't know if they teach.
> 
> Sorry for the long reply but hope this fills in some of the direct Yang Family tree for you.
> 
> Keep pushing Yang taijiquan. we are certainly doing so in the UK
> 
> Very best wishes


 
I am glad to here it, I believe there may be a group in France too. 

As for loosing heart, I was at the beginning of this post, but now I'm starting to get angry at those that are killing the style. 

Thanks

PS
Doesn't Yang Zhen Ji live in Hong Kong?


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## East Winds

Xue Sheng,

No, Yang Zhen Ji still lives (and teaches) in Handan in the south of Hebei Province.

I know what you mean about getting angry. There is some very poor stuff masquerading as "Yang" style taiji here in the UK. Still, its up to people like us to keep banging on about it and to keep showing the "real" stuff. 

Very best wishes and keep up the good work.


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## pstarr

Over forty years ago, my own teacher said that even in China (at that time) there were so-called "masters" who wouldn't teach the full art.  He said they were "strangling" it.

     He hit it right on the head.

     Quite honestly, I think that many Chinese teachers have discovered that the U.S. is a massive "cash cow" and even if they know only a portion of the full art, they're going to string it out as long as possible to keep the money rolling in.

     This is dishonest and dishonorable but even so, it can be next to impossible to convince a lot of people (who are paying through the nose for "authentic" lineage-based instruction) otherwise.

     As you already know, genuine Taijiquan (the martial art) training is very rigorous.  Many people don't want to have to go through that kind of training.  They prefer to believe the tale that they can become invincible fighters without having to sweat...


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## Xue Sheng

East Winds said:
			
		

> Xue Sheng,
> 
> No, Yang Zhen Ji still lives (and teaches) in Handan in the south of Hebei Province.
> 
> I know what you mean about getting angry. There is some very poor stuff masquerading as "Yang" style taiji here in the UK. Still, its up to people like us to keep banging on about it and to keep showing the "real" stuff.
> 
> Very best wishes and keep up the good work.


 
Thank You

My wife has relatives in Hebei, not sure if they are anywhere near Handan though.

Thanks again


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## Xue Sheng

pstarr said:
			
		

> Over forty years ago, my own teacher said that even in China (at that time) there were so-called "masters" who wouldn't teach the full art. He said they were "strangling" it.
> 
> He hit it right on the head.
> 
> Quite honestly, I think that many Chinese teachers have discovered that the U.S. is a massive "cash cow" and even if they know only a portion of the full art, they're going to string it out as long as possible to keep the money rolling in.
> 
> This is dishonest and dishonorable but even so, it can be next to impossible to convince a lot of people (who are paying through the nose for "authentic" lineage-based instruction) otherwise.
> 
> As you already know, genuine Taijiquan (the martial art) training is very rigorous. Many people don't want to have to go through that kind of training. They prefer to believe the tale that they can become invincible fighters without having to sweat...


 
I have to agree with you, and it is a very sad but true fact. Many martial artists from other countries see the US as exactly that "a cash cow" 

And most Americans eat it right up, well my teacher was.....And it means nothing. 

I know Tai Chi.....and they show you the traditional large frame Yang style form....but they know nothing beyond the form

And it is this "Cash cow" attitude that is helping killing many MAs. 

I could point to a couple very good ones in Tai Chi that teach seminars in the US today, but I am not going to start naming individuals. And a few of their students are actually serious about the Tai Chi they do, but the others just want to be able to turn this around into a cash cow of their own. I learned form....now pay me. 

And then there are those that just want to be able to say "I do Tai Chi" or believe that they are masters because they took a few classes and know a form or two.

Damn! Im beginning to rant againsorry about that.


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## pstarr

Nah, go ahead and rant...how do you REALLY feel?  :mp5: 

But I think it's important that those who have learned the martial aspect of the art do what they can to keep it alive-

So keep teaching!


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