# Intergrating Systema and Sambo?



## Clash77

Greetings,

I was curious if anyone here has intergrated their training in Systema
and Sambo?If so how does that work combining the soft work with
hard work?
I have been trying to find a sambo dvd that has more of a military approach illustrated in its content.Combining both soft and hard work together.Has anyone seen Igor Yakimov's Combat Sambo series?

Regards,Dan


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## D Dempsey

I don't practice Systema but I do practice a similar system and I don't see why it would be a problem.  I practice Pramek (A kadochnikov offshoot) and BJJ and the two mesh seamlessly.  I would assume the same would be true of what you're asking.  You could also try looking up R.O.S.S. since that essentially what it was.


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## Clash77

Thanks Dempsey,I was curious how the two would flow together.
Im familar with Pramek,Matt Powell's system.From what I understand
there is some Sambo influence in his work?

I have ran across alot of the harder sport style sambo influenced
material,but havent seen alot of the softer side that was likely
utilized by Spiridinov.I was curious if it had similar characteristics
as many of the styles of Systema.


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## D Dempsey

Clash77 said:


> Thanks Dempsey,I was curious how the two would flow together.
> Im familar with Pramek,Matt Powell's system.From what I understand
> there is some Sambo influence in his work?
> 
> I have ran across alot of the harder sport style sambo influenced
> material,but havent seen alot of the softer side that was likely
> utilized by Spiridinov.I was curious if it had similar characteristics
> as many of the styles of Systema.



I'm not sure about sambo roots.  I know he studied sambo but that may have been through R.O.S.S. which contains a sambo curriculum.  I hosted a seminar with Matt here in El Paso a few months ago.  You can read a review on his site.  Everyone in attendance studied BJJ as a base art and all of us were able to pick the information up very quickly due to the huge overlap.


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## budoboy

I could see some value in having a sambo background before entering into Systema or cross-training in both.

In my opinion, Systema practicioners (generally) who don't have a background in arts involving the technicalities of hip throws, ground positions, locks and chokes don't know how to apply them very well.

Systema's strong points, in my opinion, are striking, breath work related to flow, escapes and opportunistic takedowns (trip ups, etc.)  Locks, chokes, etc. can be seemlessly added if already known or added later.

My 2 cents

Jeff


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## D Dempsey

budoboy said:


> I could see some value in having a sambo background before entering into Systema or cross-training in both.
> 
> Systema's strong points, in my opinion, are striking, breath work related to flow, escapes and opportunistic takedowns (trip ups, etc.)  Locks, chokes, etc. can be seemlessly added if already known or added later.
> 
> My 2 cents
> 
> Jeff


A good grappling base will teach you to do all the things that you just listed.  You don't need systema for that.  Now I did get better at BJJ after I started Pramek which is because it increased my understanding of biomechanics and how to apply them.  I'm sure that systema would do the same thing.


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## Clash77

D Dempsey said:


> I'm not sure about sambo roots. I know he studied sambo but that may have been through R.O.S.S. which contains a sambo curriculum. I hosted a seminar with Matt here in El Paso a few months ago. You can read a review on his site. Everyone in attendance studied BJJ as a base art and all of us were able to pick the information up very quickly due to the huge overlap.


 
I read the review at the Pramek website,and it sounded like a very
indepth seminar.Learning to apply the biomechanics to any style
could definately enhance your performance.

From what I understand Kadochnikov made Spiridinov's system easier
to learn and apply. I guess those that have experience in Kadochnikov
work,also have roots in Combat Samoz as well.

I have some experience in Aiki work,and it was pretty easy to apply
the biomechanic's of RMA's and enhance my skills.It made it alot easier
for me to react naturally and not get locked in to structured responses.


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## NYCRonin

Just abit of personal disagreement with the above post.
A good grappling art will NOT teach you the principles of striking...no more than a good striking art will teach you how to grapple.

The rest of the statement above is open to personal definitions of the terms there.

Still, there are methods of overall movement...and they try to include the many ways of moving the body efficiently. In overall m.a. study - these can be found. In RMA - at least in this forum - the concepts of striking, grappling, evasion, breathing ans such - are covered by the numerous methods mentioned...to one degree or another...mostly depending on the student and how far they delve into their art. Include their personal body limitations and strengths -- the exponent can refer to all types of grappling, movement, striking, avoidance - and more.

One of the things that led me to commit to study my chosen RMA - is that I am not being fit into a mold. Freedom of movement...body/mind/spirit - where even the iconinc teachers do not confine me nor any other student - that is very refreshing. 
*****

Pramek, eh? Look to the lead man in Pramek - from R.O.S.S. to Kadnoshnikov to a number of other influences - he came up with Pramek....and it has helped your BJJ? Why?

Because the principles of efficient movement overpower short skill sets - or culturally enforced limitations - for any practitioner.

But again, grappling will not teach striking as well as a striking art might...and the converse is true also.

Neither one nor both can teach one 'how to fight'..and sure as hell can not teach a method of overall personal protection, growth and development.

We ALL choose how deeply we wish to get 'into' our respective methods....but often the only limitation is 'How far can you stretch - to take a bite out of the apple"?

(there is far too much to say about this - to get into, right now. I tend to free-form and diverge in my posting style).

I will let this one stand as is, for now.


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## Clash77

budoboy said:


> I could see some value in having a sambo background before entering into Systema or cross-training in both.
> 
> In my opinion, Systema practicioners (generally) who don't have a background in arts involving the technicalities of hip throws, ground positions, locks and chokes don't know how to apply them very well.
> 
> Systema's strong points, in my opinion, are striking, breath work related to flow, escapes and opportunistic takedowns (trip ups, etc.) Locks, chokes, etc. can be seemlessly added if already known or added later.
> 
> My 2 cents
> 
> Jeff


 
Thanks Jeff for the post.Mostly what you see in Systema is not getting locked in to any particular fixed position.I highly recommend Kevin Secours"Primal Power",you can see all that you mentioned above applied with a Systema approach,very fluid.


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## NYCRonin

Good advice..Kevin moves quite nicely.

Still, in Systema - we dont want to get locked, no one does. We will sometimes seem to be submitting to a lock we can move out of - to gain a place where we can better move about. It just happens...not something forced nor under tension. Hard to explain in this venue...much easier on the training floor.  

'Fear' of one's arm being broken in a lock can stiffle an easier rotation out of such a lock...think about moving into the lock FASTER than the lock-er can keep up with. Add hitting him as part of that rotation - at the same time...and thats more a RMA thing concept example. Not totally exclussive to RMA - other m.a. have such  -but more a part of the general skill set than art's I studied previously...just my personal experience, shared.


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## Clash77

Very good advice,much like it would seem that the lock became more
of a transitional point for continuation of movement?Knowing when to
apply tension and learning how to release yourself through it,with
breathing,relaxation and movement?


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## D Dempsey

NYCRonin said:


> Just abit of personal disagreement with the above post.
> A good grappling art will NOT teach you the principles of striking...no more than a good striking art will teach you how to grapple.



No dissagreement at all.  I actually missed the part about striking when I was doing the quote so thanks for pointing that out to me, and your  absolutly right about  that.



NYCRonin said:


> Pramek, eh? Look to the lead man in Pramek - from R.O.S.S. to Kadnoshnikov to a number of other influences - he came up with Pramek....and it has helped your BJJ? Why?


Principles of more efficient movement and breathing.  While these things were covered in my normal class they were covered more indepth my Matt and I was able to apply them almost right away.


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## D Dempsey

NYCRonin,
I know from reading your posts that you trained with Vladimir on several occasions.  I have a question about that.  One of the guys (in fact the only other guy) in my Pramek study group has trained with Vladimir on several occasions.  He told me that after the systema class there is a sambo class.  Does this still go on?  If it does that would probably answer Clash77 question right there.


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## budoboy

D Dempsey,

Sorry to interject myself but I was at Vlad's school about a month ago and, as far as I know, there isn't any other classes besides Systema taught there.  I can't speak to the past however.

Jeff


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## D Dempsey

Interjection is fine, this is afterall a discussion boad.  Thanks for the info.  I'd heard that sambo was taught before.  I believe it would have been around 3 or more years ago.  I'll be in Detroit in about a week so I may swing over to toronto to check out his school.  I've never trained with him and I have no systema training, but I've been told it a lot of fun.  Plus the drive isn't to bad.


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## Clash77

Dempsey,I believe I have heard about the sambo classes at the Toronto
school,but Im not sure on details.I also have heard that at Sonny Puzika's
school in Sarasota FL,that they too held combat sambo classes,not
sure though?

I have never had the chance to train with Vlad,but I am sure it would be
quite an experience.Definately let us know how it goes if you get a chance to make a class there.

Regards,Dan


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## budoboy

D Dempsey,

If you go to Toronto I don't think you'll regret getting to Vlad's classes.  I had a great time!

Jeff


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## NYCRonin

Sorry for writting so late - but only Systema is offered at Vladimirs school.

A certain form of combat Sambo was, at one time; offered on one day on the weekend...but I believe the teacher might have moved on in life.

Sambo. I never directly studdied it...but during Vlad's earlier NYC seminars, there was this tough as nails (and even older than I)  - exponent of this method. When he would attend VV's seminars at FightHouse -we would seek each other out and basically beat each other into a friendly, sharing, stoopid state of connection...and I found out, much later - that i had been training with a well known exponent of a form of Sambo - one who has since returned to Russia to teach.

If anyone wants to kknow this true martial gentleman's name - it is to be found in a deep search of this forum. 

I lost track of him over the years- his main student heads up a combat Sambo federation, based in NYC.

Sambo  has a few different forms...I wont even attempt to list them all.
I probably couldnt do them justice, really.

All I can say is that this true Russian gentleman was one of the very BEST training partners I ever shared time with, spread out in study of too many systems of combative martial arts...over more than 40 years.

BTW - one more thing I never really cared for in my studies...was a form of nationalism...any nationalism - as a way to define combative effectiveness. I did, and do still feel - this is too limiting to the open mind of the seeking individual.

I found this very common in styles.

In the Russian people I have found a particular experience with (and that is perhaps more 'trained by Russian methods than actual birth Russians) - overall, there was no real limitation - whatever wors..works and should be respected....should be considered and absorbed.

Pragmatism over style or national origin.

Effectiveness over borders.

An open mind to change and evolution.

A gift that literally was reminded to this one practioner of martial ways...by teachers of many places...and particularly - in a Russian Sambo icon/gentleman....one of the best training partners I ever met.

Hope his return to Russia has been fruitful for him...I will never forget our time shared together at those FightHouse seminars.

Sorry to digress -  but I just was moved by memories, treasured.


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## mscroggins

Not to worry, Rob. 

I understand exactly what you mean. He might have moved on, but he left his mark in the best way. One of his ex-students regularly attends Systema seminars here in California, and he is also a great training partner. 

Small world, lol.

Jason


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## NYCRonin

Could you please tell me the name of the Russian Gentleman?

I would like to know, out of respect.

PM if you prefer...and yes, it is a small world.


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## Paul Genge

D Dempsey said:


> Interjection is fine, this is afterall a discussion boad. Thanks for the info. I'd heard that sambo was taught before. I believe it would have been around 3 or more years ago. I'll be in Detroit in about a week so I may swing over to toronto to check out his school. I've never trained with him and I have no systema training, but I've been told it a lot of fun. Plus the drive isn't to bad.


 
I have spent extended trips at Vlad's in 2000 and 2002.  On neither of these trips did I see any Sambo classes.

Paul Genge


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## Jackal

I've studied both Systema and Sambo but I, personally, found that I could not successfully blend the two. Different movement pholisophies IMO. Not a fan of being told that there are things I _cannot_ do on the mat. I've found that catch wrestling actually was a more successful blend for me. More room for improv.


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## Clash77

It seems there is so many variations of Sambo,some would likely relate
to Systema more than others.From what I gather there is softer sides
and then more so hard styles,just from what I have heard from others.

I recently ordered Igor Yakimov's Combat Sambo set.I look forward
to seeing what his approach to hand to hand combat is like.I have
read reviews on his leg lock series,but nothing on this series.


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## NYCRonin

Jesse   --you , 'jackal'  -your friend in life reminds you why you could not connect both Sytema and Sambo as well and you might have (presently) wished.

Brother Jesse  -I am NOT pulling 'rank' on you - in fact, I have always seen you abit clearly...I pretty much regard you as a person - at about a bit older (and kept up your 'work'  - your job and marriage) to become a great icon of The System that is pretty rare, even now. You -  like myslef...have chosen a less public venue to 'teach' The System'...but dude...you get 'it' - I get great time with you every few years. Still got that kangaroo whip? Ya know what - I couldnt crrack it the last time we were together...but NOW - I could knock the nutz off a gnat.

The 'russian gentlemans' name was sent - respectfully -in a PM - BUT, you would have known him...but I kinda hogged up the time I had with a full bore Sambo icon. Sorry.

HIS 'Sambo' actually fit well into the Systema 'work' - and I only blame my self that I have (yet) to demo it to his best student in the USA  (a guy named Steve) - to show how it cna all work in a congruent manner.
MT and BJJ  - with good transition - now RULES the UFC - with a touch of the USA boxing thrown in to the mix.

The russian guy - with me? Had No rules - it was just survival..and I feel his attraction to the System was just that. NO contest  - no sportive...just 'doing the work until  the work is done'.

Jesse  - IF you would like to know the gentlemans Sambo - maybe..we can work out a meet with his best student - Steve - and demo systema and it's way of fitting in.

Maybe..we can do so.
happy new year, Brother Jesse.


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