# Becoming a better beginner... again!?!



## geezer (Dec 9, 2011)

A few random observations on "backsliding". My training partner moved out of town over 6 months ago. He left behind a couple of students, but the most advanced one had his second kid born, went through a home foreclosure, and then got really involved in a band. I haven't seen him since. The next best one has been out-of-state on his job for months at a time and still isn't back to regular training. The lowest ranking one joined the army and shipped out. 

So that leaves me and a small group handful of beginner-intermediates. With no advanced people to train with, I'm rapidly forgetting our system's advanced Chi-sau training sections. I still do the forms up to the Bart Cham Do... I knew about half of that, but seem to have forgotten most it. What's the point of reapeating moves awckwardly, incorrectly or that you do not fully understand anyway? Even the Luk Dim Boon Kwun form, short as it is, seems like a chore when there's nobody to do paired training with! With any luck, I'll be able to travel to work with my instructor this Spring. But in the meantime, my higher-level skill are slipping. Sad.

On the other hand, my remaining students are my laboratory. I keep modifying and reworking old lower-level drills, and of course, try to lead by example. Funny thing that. For an old guy with messed up legs, I'm finding that my stances and steps are faster and stronger, my punches both quicker and heavier, and in general my basics are better than they've been for a long time. Even though I'm back to working "beginning" stuff a lot, I'm a much "better beginner" each time around, and I'm feeling like my "higher level" skills are going to benefit too. Kind of makes the whole situation more bearable ...even _worthwhile_. Any thoughts?


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## Sukerkin (Dec 9, 2011)

Obviously I can't comment on the Wing Chun aspects of your question as I have not a clue on that score .  However, one of the things I am always at pains to get across when I am instructing Iai is that the first four forms of Seiza and Batto Ho are the fundamental foundations upon which the whole art rests.  If you can learn _Mai_ or _Junto sono ichi_ to the degree where your performance is powerful and flowing then the more 'advanced' forms will likewise flow and be powerful.  

It is sadly true that without high level correction it is all too easy to 'grind in' bad habits with the more complex forms and there is not a lot that can be done to prevent that if a sufficiently ranked teacher is not available.  In those circumstances all you can do it work on the 'building block' forms, keep the more complex forms in your mind by running through them as best you can and keep thinking about them as you do them.  By doing that 'thinking' part, you stop them being parsed into reflex memory so, when you finally gain access to instruction again, you do not have to 'unlearn' the mistakes that have crept in because you have prevented them from becoming permanent.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 9, 2011)

Of course the low level material is usually the most important and the most functional.  Solid skills with only lower level material can make one a truly skilled martial artist.


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 9, 2011)

While I feel your pain regarding advanced training, dont underestimate the value of training with beginners. Helping students drill in basic moves often improves your own game as you are having to really explain and justify the technique when beginners ask questions. It can also slow the pace down (going with more advanced students, you tend to get a bit competitive and can miss technique for the sake of getting a hit in a spar etc)

You do need to try and find people at your level though. I always say to my students that the best training comes from doing it with those below you in skill, equal to you in skill, and above you in skill. Get all three partners in training and you will benefit greatly (as opposed to training with people at your level)


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## MA-Caver (Dec 9, 2011)

It's never a bad idea or too late to start over again... no matter WHAT you choose to do.


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## jks9199 (Dec 9, 2011)

geezer said:


> A few random observations on "backsliding". My training partner moved out of town over 6 months ago. He left behind a couple of students, but the most advanced one had his second kid born, went through a home foreclosure, and then got really involved in a band. I haven't seen him since. The next best one has been out-of-state on his job for months at a time and still isn't back to regular training. The lowest ranking one joined the army and shipped out.
> 
> So that leaves me and a small group handful of beginner-intermediates. With no advanced people to train with, I'm rapidly forgetting our system's advanced Chi-sau training sections. I still do the forms up to the Bart Cham Do... I knew about half of that, but seem to have forgotten most it. What's the point of reapeating moves awckwardly, incorrectly or that you do not fully understand anyway? Even the Luk Dim Boon Kwun form, short as it is, seems like a chore when there's nobody to do paired training with! With any luck, I'll be able to travel to work with my instructor this Spring. But in the meantime, my higher-level skill are slipping. Sad.
> 
> On the other hand, my remaining students are my laboratory. I keep modifying and reworking old lower-level drills, and of course, try to lead by example. Funny thing that. For an old guy with messed up legs, I'm finding that my stances and steps are faster and stronger, my punches both quicker and heavier, and in general my basics are better than they've been for a long time. Even though I'm back to working "beginning" stuff a lot, I'm a much "better beginner" each time around, and I'm feeling like my "higher level" skills are going to benefit too. Kind of makes the whole situation more bearable ...even _worthwhile_. Any thoughts?



No real advice, since my own training is heavily on the basics of my system.  But a tip or thought...  Notebooks are your friends for those advanced drills and forms that you can't practice as often now.  Write 'em down.  Review your notes periodically.  That way, you won't completely lose them, even though it may take some practice and fiddling to get them together again when you do have an opportunity.


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## WTchap (Dec 12, 2011)

jks9199's tip is a good one. Sometimes even when you _are_ training in a regular group with hard working, dedicated Wing Tsunners it can be hard to retain information. Sometimes a class is good because it covers material you know well and gives you a chance to really get into it deeply, other times a class seems to be packed full of new material or new ways of doing something you thought you had down pat.

After most classes I stop off at a cafe on my way home and make notes. I try to do three things: 

1) I write down a particular drill or exercise in as much detail as possible (a step-by-step account of what I did, and what my partner did) - so all technical info relating to the _mechanics_ of something

2) I write down what we got from the drill/exercise in terms of _theory and concepts_, the mottos and how they apply, etc.

3) I write down _my own thoughts_: what I struggled with, the mistakes I made (and how the instructor helped me try and correct them), what felt difficult to do correctly and why, etc.

Sometimes I illustrate these points and explanations with the worst diagrams and sketches known to man! :ultracool 

But... this thread and another on Study Groups has inspired me to see if I can set up a Saturday morning get-together with likeminded Wing Tsunners from the classes I attend - maybe just an informal meeting for a few hours for us to help each other with material... and maybe someone from that group could decipher my notebook's diagrams for me :rules:


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## jks9199 (Dec 12, 2011)

WTchap said:


> After most classes I stop off at a cafe on my way home and make notes. I try to do three things:
> 
> 1) I write down a particular drill or exercise in as much detail as possible (a step-by-step account of what I did, and what my partner did) - so all technical info relating to the _mechanics_ of something
> 
> ...



That's a great approach -- but they can't possibly be the worst diagrams or sketches.  You haven't seen mine...

I had a classmate who was much more artistically talented than I am; his notebook was filled with great sketches and diagrams.  He even took to using different colors for each hand...  My notes and sketches would be pretty much useless to someone else.  Even I have to sometimes stand there and DO what it says for it to make sense...


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## geezer (Dec 12, 2011)

Notes and drawings have been a huge help to me too, although frankly I'm often too impatient to wade back through them and try to decipher all the details. Over the years, what has really helped me was just the act of sitting down after a lesson or seminar and writing it all down.... like a personal mental review of everything we'd covered. The trouble is I've got reams of this kind of stuff stuffed into binders and folders. And I study what are considered to be _paired down_ systems: Wing Chun and Escrima (Latosa and Torres systems). 

....I'm glad I didn't continue with my first style, Kempo. _Noooo! Too much for tiny brain... Zap, Crackle, Fzzzzt!_


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## Domino (Dec 13, 2011)

As has been said, the 1st things we learn in most systems can usually be the most important. 
You mention 'beginner' many times but this is not a bad thing.
Maybe you didn't train the basics enough to use them properly but I recommend this is what you do, things will come back to you quickly. I do this every couple of days.


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## profesormental (Dec 14, 2011)

Greetings.

A good idea would be to take this time of training beginners to sharpen your knowledge and execution of basics and fundamental patterns.

In any case, the fundamentals patterns and movements are supposed to be the basis of you go to moves, which should work on most occasions.

And even though your defense isn't being sharpened as much, your offense should heavily improve while practicing with your students. If you practice enough, that offense should penetrate the defense of higher skilled practitioners.

This has been my experience. I hope it is yours as well.

Sincerely,

Juan Mercado
Academia de Karate Kung Fu y MMA de Carolina


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## WingChunIan (Jan 25, 2012)

I had a break in my training and the return to basics was the best thing I ever did, it improved my Wing Chun no end and changed my philosophy completely. 
On a separate note, it appears from your post that you are from a lineage that teaches / practices chi sau through a sequence of drills. If you want to improve you need a challenge, try making your chi sau random, even absolute novices can surprise you and give you a new edge to your training.


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## geezer (Jan 27, 2012)

Random or "free" chi-sau is always a blast. But more so when you get together with friends from other groups or lineages. In the past I've been warned that this is not wise, that others will take cheap shots and then go around bad mouthing your system ...that being a "sifu" means keeping up your reputation. What rubbish. I know a lot of guys who can best me... inside and outside of my system. I'm not afraid to admit it. How the hell else can you learn anything new??? If my students want to learn from god himself, they can look up my former sifu, because that's how _he_ presents himself, and he charges accordingly! LOL


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## WCman1976 (Jan 28, 2012)

The one thing that has always appealed to me the most about wing chun is that there is no time-wasting. Every technique and principle you are taught is important. What is sloppy in one form will be sloppy in all forms. Therefore, I don't think you should feel bad at all about having to go back to "the beginning." Wing chun is all tied together in one unbelievably solid package, and perfecting the so-called lower level techniques will only serve to help with everything else.


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## onthechin (Jan 30, 2012)

I like the write things down idea..not sure I'd have the patience for it though. It would help me at work if I did that too. In my experience, only training (sparring) with people of a lower skill level than yourself will drag your skills down. As someone said, training with people below,equal and above is probably the best. I reckon I'd still miss the people who knew what they were doing...but yeah look on the bright side - More sil lum tao, the basis of the style!


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