# Why isn't savate as widely known and practiced in America as Muay Thai?



## Freestyler777

Boxing and Muay Thai seem ubiquitous, but savate, is relatively unknown in the USA.  I know there is a Texas Savate League, but you'd be hard pressed to find a savate club anywhere else.  Jeet Kune Do incorporates some savate, but it is not actual french boxing.  

If English (western) boxing is popular, why not French boxing?

What happened to one of Europe's best and oldest martial art?


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## arnisador

I've always wondered why Savate, as a WMA like boxing, isn't better known and more widely practiced. I suppose the Oriental arts have the benefit of seeming more foreign and mystical.


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## Freestyler777

Maybe because as english boxing became so universal, french boxing was eclipsed.  Just like what MMA did to full-contact karate competitions (remember how popular kickboxing was in the seventies and eighties?).


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## stone_dragone

I am sure that some of the reason comes from the unfortunate stereotype of French surrendering...


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## AndyM

Some JKD schools still use some Savate in their kicking.


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## Archangel M

Because "Eastern" stuff is always more mysterious, effective and "cooler" than "Western" stuff.


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## arnisador

AndyM said:


> Some JKD schools still use some Savate in their kicking.



Yes, I think that's pretty common for JKD schools, but I think it's usually only a few isolated kicks.


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## Touch Of Death

Freestyler777 said:


> Boxing and Muay Thai seem ubiquitous, but savate, is relatively unknown in the USA. I know there is a Texas Savate League, but you'd be hard pressed to find a savate club anywhere else. Jeet Kune Do incorporates some savate, but it is not actual french boxing.
> 
> If English (western) boxing is popular, why not French boxing?
> 
> What happened to one of Europe's best and oldest martial art?


It was design for fighting on ships during wartime or say a pirate battle
Sean


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## MasterMan

Cause everyone hates the french.


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## Bodhisattva

Freestyler777 said:


> Boxing and Muay Thai seem ubiquitous, but savate, is relatively unknown in the USA.  I know there is a Texas Savate League, but you'd be hard pressed to find a savate club anywhere else.  Jeet Kune Do incorporates some savate, but it is not actual french boxing.
> 
> If English (western) boxing is popular, why not French boxing?
> 
> What happened to one of Europe's best and oldest martial art?



Savate is really intended for usage while wearing boots.  That limitation shouldn't really hurt the interest in Savate, but I believe it does.

Check out Daniel Duby's Savate discs on Straight Blast Gym's Website

http://www.straightblastgym.com/


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## Brian R. VanCise

Truthfully in watching the recent FightQuest episode on Savate I would say that Doug and Jimmy's reaction to the *outfit *they had to wear pretty much sums it up.

Other than that Savate is a really cool art!


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## Freestyler777

i think that if western (english) boxing is so universal, then french boxing should be given equal exposure.  Freestyle and Greco-Roman exist side-by-side and are not seen as two different sports, so why is one ubiquitous and the other hardly heard about?  I am at a loss for words....:boxing:


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## Steel Tiger

Freestyler777 said:


> i think that if western (english) boxing is so universal, then french boxing should be given equal exposure. Freestyle and Greco-Roman exist side-by-side and are not seen as two different sports, so why is one ubiquitous and the other hardly heard about? I am at a loss for words....:boxing:


 
I think you have actually hit on the main reason, or very close to it.  One of the major reasons for the codification of boxing rules in Britain was to exclude the techniques that were being practiced by the Scottish which were based on Savate.  By the early 19th century kicking as a techniques had been outlawed.  The Revised London Prize Ring Rules (later revised as the Marquess of Queensbury rules) asked the following of boxers:



> "you must not fight simply to win; no holds barred is not the way; you must win by the rules" (17, sect. 5, pt. 1).


 
Add to this the vast scope of the British Empire during the 19th century and you can begin to see what happened to Savate.  It was simply overwhelmed by Marquess of Queensbury-style boxing.:boxing:


Though the strange outfits they wear might have something to do with it not coming back.:wink1:


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## Freestyler777

that was a well thought out response, thank you.  BTW, I like your signature.


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## Skpotamus

I think it's the manotard.  Seriously.  The fighting itself is great, but the outfit makes you look fruity as hell.  

Also, the French elitism with their fighters kills most of the exposure potential.  Pro savateurs are not allowed to fight Savate anymore if they fight in any other style or organization.  Ernesto Hoost used to fight Savate, then decided he wanted to try Muay Thai and some other kickboxing venues, and wasn't allowed to fight in Savate anymore.


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## Hand Sword

Why? The outfit and marketing.


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## Zero

I think a lot of the posts on here re the cons of savate are regarding the actual modern sport side of savate - ie the flattering 'one piece' suit. And this and the other reasons are why it has never really taken off outside France.

There is another, older side to savate though. I have researched the art quite a lot and the historical fighting concepts are focused, not just as said before for ship battles but for urban combat (street conflict) and cover straight out fighting (punching and kicks) to effective ambushing and 'suckering' techniques - and evading/neutralising such attacks.  There are also take downs and locks and the use of canes and other items that make effective weapons on the street.  It is actually quite a conglomeration of different moves and styles, a bit like JKD.  I have some materials on this side of savate; if anyone is interested I can try dig them up.

THe techniques are brutal and effective - head butts, boots to groin and knees etc.

The problem is I don't know if this side of savate is focused on or trained at all these days and if instead it is all just 'ring' related - which would be a shame.  I do think the kicking side of modern savate is highly effective but it would be good to have the more rounded, street aspects to train in alongside this.


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## kidswarrior

Zero said:


> There are also take downs and locks and the use of canes and other items that make effective weapons on the street.  It is actually quite a conglomeration of different moves and styles, a bit like JKD.


Just came across an article I'd saved on la canne by a guy (Prof. Salem Assli) who teaches Savate Cane at Dan Inosanto's place here in West L.A. Was thinking of looking him up as a way to round out cane skills. They use a straight cane, about 36" long, and the techs look like they'd work just fine.


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## arnisador

_Deadly Arts_ did a nice job on savate on *fitTV*. I really enjoyed it, despite the usual overly-hyped "challenge match" at the end. There was a lot of la canne in it, as well as some self-defense savate.


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## Zero

Yeah, on la canne, apparently it's a sport competiton also these days, with bouts in a ring.  The rules look rather limiting though (ie no thrusts/stabs) and the canes used for the sport are not (of course) as heavy as those used on the street! Might be fun (funny) to view a match though; must be very satisfying/cathartic to bring a cane down on someone's head in the name of sport at the end of a hard week! : )

There is of course quite a bit of material on cane work for the street also - let us know how it goes if you give the Cane Master a go.


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## kittybreed

A local guy here in the Central Florida area told me he competed in Savate at last years' Disney Martial Arts Festival. I don't see it listed this year, though. Here's a link to the Disney page.
http://disneyworldsports.disney.go....tDetailPage&CMP=OTC-VanURLMartialArtsFestival


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## lklawson

Steel Tiger said:


> I think you have actually hit on the main reason, or very close to it. One of the major reasons for the codification of boxing rules in Britain was to exclude the techniques that were being practiced by the Scottish which were based on Savate. By the early 19th century kicking as a techniques had been outlawed. The Revised London Prize Ring Rules (later revised as the Marquess of Queensbury rules) asked the following of boxers:
> 
> 
> 
> Add to this the vast scope of the British Empire during the 19th century and you can begin to see what happened to Savate. It was simply overwhelmed by Marquess of Queensbury-style boxing.


Oh, I'm sure that had some fair amount to do with it, but I think it was more than that.  More by far.  Remember, there were several notable "Boxing vx. Savate" matches, to try to determin the "superior" method.  Both were wildly popular.

The two most damaging events to degrade the popular perception of la Savate were 

1) the homoganizing effect of the Olympics (which drove countless regional wrestling styles to the brink of extinction), "prefering," as it did, English Boxing over la Savate.

2) the devistation upon the ranks of Savateures wrought by WWI.  The ranks of Savate Silver Gloves holders were utterly DECIMATED by the trenches.  There were, litterally, only a handful of qualfied instructors left after WWI.  And it's taken nearly a century for the sport to begin to recover.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## K831

I have always thought it seemed like a great style... mentioning that brings on the same reply each time 

"what those guys in the gay uniforms" or "Isn't that a French style? Yea, I don't want to learn how to quiver and run away.."

That sentiment alone surely hurts its growth here. The other historical context points made by others shed some light on the issue as well.

The little exposure I have had with people trained in the art certainly left me feeling like the moved well, had good mechanics, timing etc...

Here is a link to a video showing the SD side of Savate;


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## jarrod

there are many reasons, such as the ones already mentioned.  also, unless i'm mistaken, savate is less popular in it's home country than muay thai is in it's own.  this means that there are more indigenious fighters out there representing their style.  

also, savate's reliance on kicking with the boot & prohibitions against kicking with the shin prevent it from performing well against other styles, regardless of how effective it is.  also, if i can make a huge genralization, there is a tendency among the french to refuse to "market" any aspect of their culture; the prevailing thought seems to be that what they have is so great that others should come to them.  you can see this in french language, philosophy, & art.  the french have a lot to offer, including savate, but most people will gravitate towards what is more accessible.  

jf


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## lklawson

jarrod said:


> also, savate's reliance on kicking with the boot & prohibitions against kicking with the shin prevent it from performing well against other styles


This is due to its street fighting roots.  It makes perfect sense coming from french street gangs who were free to wear steel capped sabots (boots).  Why kick with the shin when you can toe-kick with a metal tipped boot?

It makes more sense in the more combative/SD versions of Savate, such as Danse de la Rue, though they are far more difficult to find.

The same sort of thing goes for la canne.  There are two basic standard "styles" of la canne.  La canne de combat, and la canne de armes.  The first, la canne de combat, is the "sporting" version and omits thrusts and enforces certain rules on how cuts are made that, frankly makes it less useful as a SD style.  La canne de armes is the "standard" style which includes more SD & combative training.  And, of course, that is generic.  You can find specific styles of la canne, such as my favorite, Vigny style.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## jarrod

lklawson said:


> This is due to its street fighting roots. It makes perfect sense coming from french street gangs who were free to wear steel capped sabots (boots). Why kick with the shin when you can toe-kick with a metal tipped boot?


 
i know, but savate is the only style which allows for boots in competition.  i was just saying that since their primary weapon is taken away when competing against muay thay, it hasn't held up as well as it could.  

jf


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## lklawson

jarrod said:


> i know, but savate is the only style which allows for boots in competition.


And, of course, those competition boots aren't exactly "steel toed."  IMS, called "slippers" after Chausson



> i was just saying that since their primary weapon is taken away when competing against muay thay, it hasn't held up as well as it could.


Quite so.

It should be noted that in Danse de la Rue, knee kicks and shin kicks are not illegal.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## jarrod

interesting!  i haven't even heard of danse la rue, & i'm something of a history nerd.  this may say something about the french tendency to avoid exportation.

jf


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## lklawson

jarrod said:


> interesting! i haven't even heard of danse la rue, & i'm something of a history nerd. this may say something about the french tendency to avoid exportation.


Craig Gemeiner of http://savateaustralia.com is the go-to guy for DdlR.  He's done a boat load of research and development with it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Jarrod G.

I agree that the elitism of Savate is a big reason for it's not cathcing on.  I must say that it's a really cool style, but good luck finding someone to teach it to you.   Another reason I think that muay thai has become more popular in recent years than savate is that it allows the use of knees/elbows which further increases the dynamics of the fights.     basically, western boxing is pure and simple whereas thai boxing is as close to no hold barred as you can get in a pro fighting style (besides the emrgence of MMA in recent years)  Savate is really cool, unfortunately it falls somewhere between these two arts and is caught in a huge gray with everything else that falls in between.


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