# Some heavy bag training.



## Ironbear24

The original purpose of the video was to prove tobthe user "friedrice" that I do in fact hit the heavy bag with no gloves on. For some reason he didn't believe I could do it.

I am doing this all "bearhanded" as he put it with "bear knuckles" After punching it I decided to work on some kicks too. Any advice on my form will be taken with an open mind and great consideration as I always wish to improve.

Training.avi


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## Flying Crane

Ironbear24 said:


> The original purpose of the video was to prove tobthe user "friedrice" that I do in fact hit the heavy bag with no gloves on. For some reason he didn't believe I could do it.
> 
> I am doing this all "bearhanded" as he put it with "bear knuckles" After punching it I decided to work on some kicks too. Any advice on my form will be taken with an open mind and great consideration as I always wish to improve.
> 
> Training.avi


People don't believe it's possible to train the heavy bag without wraps and gloves?  Weird.  Thanks for sharing.


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## Flying Crane

Is that bag somewhere between 60-80 pounds?  Looks like you move it pretty well when you hit it.  I've got one thereabouts, tho since I moved a bit over a year ago I haven't figured out yet where to hang it.  Still gotta organize my garage.

I prefer to use the bag to drill basic punching and kicking techniques, to work on the mechanics and delivery.  I get the impression that is how you do it too?  I'm not a fan of "sparring" with the heavy bag.  I personally don't find that as useful.  Just drill those techniques, one at a time, one after another after another.


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## giggskadabra

some people would advise against doing it bare handed. for obvious reasons. i say its your body do what you will

Loved the track btw its from bloodsport right?


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## Ironbear24

The bag is 120 pounds. And yes the track is from bloodsport.


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## Flying Crane

Ironbear24 said:


> The bag is 120 pounds. And yes the track is from bloodsport.


120, nice.  I think that's too heavy for me, I'm not a really big fellow.


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## Flying Crane

giggskadabra said:


> some people would advise against doing it bare handed. for obvious reasons. i say its your body do what you will
> 
> Loved the track btw its from bloodsport right?


What are the obvious reasons?


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## giggskadabra

damage to the nerves in your hands, and damaging your wrists.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

giggskadabra said:


> damage to the nerves in your hands, and damaging your wrists.


Other people (like ironbear) have argued for it because it can toughen your hands. It's a sliding scale, IMO. However, friedrice was saying not that he wouldn't advise it, but that you actually couldn't hit a heavy punching bag without gloves. Really weird claim.


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## Flying Crane

giggskadabra said:


> damage to the nerves in your hands, and damaging your wrists.


In my experience if you take your time and do it right, build the intensity, don't go too hard too quickly, the problems are minimal and avoided.  A good dit da jow helps for insurance.

Using the wraps becomes a crutch, and you never figure out how to do it right vs. wrong.  The wraps protect you and lie to you.  Yes, they allow you to go with more intensity, but that doesn't outweigh the detriments of using them.  You will never develop the wrist strength or understand the alignment needed to hit for real when you aren't wearing the wraps, if you wear them during training.


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## giggskadabra

yeah i agree its a weird claim, im not saying it will damage your hands everyones body is different but there is a chance of injury. so long as you are aware of it its fine. common boxing injury is a fractured knuckle even with all the protection of their hands. 

wrapping your wrists will allow you to hit harder though as it decreases the chance of your wrist bending backwards on itself. the added protection might make you more confident in giving it a better wallop


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## giggskadabra

Flying Crane said:


> In my experience if you take your time and do it right, build the intensity, don't go too hard too quickly, the problems are minimal and avoided.  A good dit da jow helps for insurance.
> 
> Using the wraps becomes a crutch, and you never figure out how to do it right vs. wrong.  The wraps protect you and lie to you.  Yes, they allow you to go with more intensity, but that doesn't outweigh the detriments of using them.  You will never develop the wrist strength or understand the alignment needed to hit for real, when you aren't wearing the wraps.


thats a good point, its a question of awareness vs the person vs the intensity etc etc boxers probably have more of a need to wrap because of the structure of the training and also how unpredictable the strikes can be and where they land. maybe boxers train like this too.? i dont know


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## Bill Mattocks

Thanks for posting!  Takes courage to put yourself out there like that.  I work on the bag with bare hands and feet.  I do not hit the way you do, it looks very strange to me.  Not saying what you are doing is wrong, but we just don't generate power that way.  I also don't kick like that, and definitely do not hit with the side of the foot that way.  Again, not saying you're doing it wrong, it's just alien to my style.

About the only thing I could offer in the way of criticism is to look at your target when you hit it, not the camera.


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## Flying Crane

giggskadabra said:


> thats a good point, its a question of awareness vs the person vs the intensity etc etc boxers probably have more of a need to wrap because of the structure of the training and also how unpredictable the strikes can be and where they land. maybe boxers train like this too.? i dont know


I don't know either, but I also have the impression that boxing gloves close the fist in an unnatural way that differs from how you would do it bare-handed.  It makes the thumb point up, separate from the rest of the fist.  I would never punch that way for real.

Ive also been of the understanding that the boxers fracture of the pinkie-side of the hand comes from not understanding how to line up the punch properly after always training with wraps and gloves.  Again, those things protect the hand and wrist and prevent you from understanding the proper mechanics and from building the needed strength.  When they punch bare-handed they hit wrong and break the hand.


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## Ironbear24

Bill Mattocks said:


> Thanks for posting!  Takes courage to put yourself out there like that.  I work on the bag with bare hands and feet.  I do not hit the way you do, it looks very strange to me.  Not saying what you are doing is wrong, but we just don't generate power that way.  I also don't kick like that, and definitely do not hit with the side of the foot that way.  Again, not saying you're doing it wrong, it's just alien to my style.
> 
> About the only thing I could offer in the way of criticism is to look at your target when you hit it, not the camera.



I'll keep that in mind. I was using the heel of my foot as the striking surface in the kicks. It may have looked otherwise in the video or I did something wrong? Looking at my target is definitely something I need to work on though. I often look at the mirror all the time to check my form so much.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

> yeah i agree its a weird claim, im not saying it will damage your hands everyones body is different but there is a chance of injury. so long as you are aware of it its fine. common boxing injury is a fractured knuckle even with all the protection of their hands.



wrapping your wrists will allow you to hit harder though as it decreases the chance of your wrist bending backwards on itself. the added protection might make you more confident in giving it a better wallop
I completely agree with that. Personally I don't hit it barehanded anymore, or at least not hard, because I don't want to risk injuring myself. Until about 3 years ago, though, I was all far it, to me I feel like it helped and punching correctly I never did any permanent damage. At one point, I hurt my hand doing a knifehand strike and couldn't punch for a while, but it healed up fine


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## giggskadabra

quite possibly, tbh in my experience ive done some pad work with wraps and gloves and ended up with injuries but when we spar in fisticuffs and fist fighting we dont use protection and ive never had an injury (yet)


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## Bill Mattocks

giggskadabra said:


> some people would advise against doing it bare handed. for obvious reasons. i say its your body do what you will



I started out using bag gloves.  Now I just use bare hands.  I find it works better for me.  I have not done any particular work to desensitize my hands, I just start light and work my way up, stop if I start to hurt.  Uppercuts gave me the most problem at first, but now they are no problem either.


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## giggskadabra

Bill Mattocks said:


> I started out using bag gloves.  Now I just use bare hands.  I find it works better for me.  I have not done any particular work to desensitize my hands, I just start light and work my way up, stop if I start to hurt.  Uppercuts gave me the most problem at first, but now they are no problem either.


 yeah i guess everyones different, i have quite weak wrists so im not always confident without using wraps, like i said in my previous post though i do train without them and im usually fine.


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## Ironbear24

Depending on the bag I use hand wraps, but only if the bag is made of a canvas like material that is rough to the touch. That is only so my skin doesn't tear and bleed all over the bag though.


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## Ironbear24

giggskadabra said:


> yeah i guess everyones different, i have quite weak wrists so im not always confident without using wraps, like i said in my previous post though i do train without them and im usually fine.



Wraps are OK because they don't give the crutch of lining up your fist with your wrist for you by forcing it on place with the bulk of the glove.  Then again it depends how much you are wrapping them, from the sounds of it though and this is just my opinion.

You can just as easily hit the bag with no protection because you already have been doing this during sparring anyways.


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## Flying Crane

giggskadabra said:


> yeah i guess everyones different, i have quite weak wrists so im not always confident without using wraps, like i said in my previous post though i do train without them and im usually fine.


I say just start easy and build gradually.  Don't expect to go with full power right away.  Take your time, figure out the lineup both for the knuckles and the wrist.

Your wrist will collapse a few times until you figure it out.  That's part of the learning process and is the reason to start out easy.  Especially if you are using a heavy bag, 90 pounds and up, yes you gotta be cautious.

That's why I don't see a lot of value in dancing around and sparring with the bag.  Instead, take your stand and drill your punch into the bag one at a time, one after the other.  And take the time to stop the bag from swinging around in between, at least until you start to figure it out.  Take your time and develop your technique.  It isn't a race.


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## Flying Crane

Ironbear24 said:


> Wraps are OK because they don't give the crutch of lining up your fist with your wrist for you by forcing it on place with the bulk of the glove.  Then again it depends how much you are wrapping them, from the sounds of it though and this is just my opinion.
> 
> You can just as easily hit the bag with no protection because you already have been doing this during sparring anyways.


Yeah but the impact on a heavy bag if you are really working on developing your technique is a lot more that sparring.  So caution is appropriate.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Bill Mattocks said:


> Thanks for posting!  Takes courage to put yourself out there like that.  I work on the bag with bare hands and feet.  I do not hit the way you do, it looks very strange to me.  Not saying what you are doing is wrong, but we just don't generate power that way.  I also don't kick like that, and definitely do not hit with the side of the foot that way.  Again, not saying you're doing it wrong, it's just alien to my style.



Not going to get into an argument about efficacy of different ways of generating power, since IMO there are multiple ways to do this. But..If he's able to move a 120 pound bag like that, I assume he's generating a decent amount of power 



> About the only thing I could offer in the way of criticism is to look at your target when you hit it, not the camera.



I was thinking that..I felt like he was doing it to prove a point to another user he argued with recently. Found it funny.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

giggskadabra said:


> yeah i guess everyones different, i have quite weak wrists so im not always confident without using wraps, like i said in my previous post though i do train without them and im usually fine.


If that's something that concerns you, there are specific exercises to help strengthen wrists. If it's a non issue, then ignore this.
Also, as long as your technique/arm-->hand alignment is right, in theory your wrists will be fine even if they are weak.


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## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> In my experience if you take your time and do it right, build the intensity, don't go too hard too quickly, the problems are minimal and avoided.  A good dit da jow helps for insurance.
> 
> Using the wraps becomes a crutch, and you never figure out how to do it right vs. wrong.  The wraps protect you and lie to you.  Yes, they allow you to go with more intensity, but that doesn't outweigh the detriments of using them.  You will never develop the wrist strength or understand the alignment needed to hit for real when you aren't wearing the wraps, if you wear them during training.



Wraps are not that restrictive. You still need proper alignment even with gloves on.


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## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> Wraps are not that restrictive. You still need proper alignment even with gloves on.


I'm sure you do.


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## drop bear

giggskadabra said:


> yeah i agree its a weird claim, im not saying it will damage your hands everyones body is different but there is a chance of injury. so long as you are aware of it its fine. common boxing injury is a fractured knuckle even with all the protection of their hands.
> 
> wrapping your wrists will allow you to hit harder though as it decreases the chance of your wrist bending backwards on itself. the added protection might make you more confident in giving it a better wallop



Sagittal Band Tear "Boxer's Knuckle"


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## drop bear

Op. You short change yourself a bit in the one two combinations. Sit back a bit further and throw each punch.

The right hand you throw sits on the bag a bit to long. Which is making you push the bag a bit too much.


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## Ironbear24

Ironbear24 said:


> Wraps are OK because they don't give the crutch of lining up your fist with your wrist for you by forcing it on place with the bulk of the glove.  Then again it depends how much you are wrapping them, from the sounds of it though and this is just my opinion.
> 
> You can just as easily hit the bag with no protection because you already have been doing this during sparring anyways.





drop bear said:


> Op. You short change yourself a bit in the one two combinations. Sit back a bit further and throw each punch.
> 
> The right hand you throw sits on the bag a bit to long. Which is making you push the bag a bit too much.



Thank you. I'll keep that in mind.


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## Tony Dismukes

Some thoughts on form:

I don't know what style you practice, but flaring your elbows out from your body like that in your fighting stance is considered bad form in many styles - it really leaves your body open to attack.

Your punches looked like you were doing a lot more pushing than is usually optimal. Remember that you are looking for momentary impact, not shoving.

Look at the target, not the camera. That was driving me crazy watching it.

On the handwraps/gloves vs bare hands question: it's really a trade-off. Going barehanded helps condition the knuckles and exposes any problems with wrist alignment  and targeting very quickly. On the other hand if you are throwing thousands of full-power punches into a heavy target every week, that can take a toll on your hands even if you have good technique and hand conditioning. That's where the wraps and gloves are useful to protect you from wear and tear. On balance, I'd probably vote for doing some bare-handed practice for technique and conditioning, but using the wraps and gloves for volume training.


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## Danny T

drop bear said:


> Op. You short change yourself a bit in the one two combinations. Sit back a bit further and throw each punch.
> 
> The right hand you throw sits on the bag a bit to long. Which is making you push the bag a bit too much.


With hard strikes the bag should move some but should dance as well. When hitting the bag hard there is a fold or indention created in the bag as it is compressed from the impact; as the fist is retracted the void allows the compressed area to expand rapidly and the bag will bounce or dance and not just swing. It takes hard powerful punching to make the bag dance.


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## drop bear

Danny T said:


> With hard strikes the bag should move some but should dance as well. When hitting the bag hard there is a fold or indention created in the bag as it is compressed from the impact; as the fist is retracted the void allows the compressed area to expand rapidly and the bag will bounce or dance and not just swing. It takes hard powerful punching to make the bag dance.



Yeah.that post about kung fu not punching went into it a bit. It is a fine line between punching right and wrong.


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## Ironbear24

Tony Dismukes said:


> Some thoughts on form:
> 
> I don't know what style you practice, but flaring your elbows out from your body like that in your fighting stance is considered bad form in many styles - it really leaves your body open to attack.
> 
> Your punches looked like you were doing a lot more pushing than is usually optimal. Remember that you are looking for momentary impact, not shoving.
> 
> Look at the target, not the camera. That was driving me crazy watching it.
> 
> On the handwraps/gloves vs bare hands question: it's really a trade-off. Going barehanded helps condition the knuckles and exposes any problems with wrist alignment  and targeting very quickly. On the other hand if you are throwing thousands of full-power punches into a heavy target every week, that can take a toll on your hands even if you have good technique and hand conditioning. That's where the wraps and gloves are useful to protect you from wear and tear. On balance, I'd probably vote for doing some bare-handed practice for technique and conditioning, but using the wraps and gloves for volume training.



There is a mirror along the side of the wall that I have a bad habit of glancing at to check on my form and feet positioning. It is a bad habit I am trying to break. My fighting style is mostly Kenpo with some Judo.

Thanks for the advice, I'll try to keep my elbows more tucked in.


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## Ironbear24

Danny T said:


> With hard strikes the bag should move some but should dance as well. When hitting the bag hard there is a fold or indention created in the bag as it is compressed from the impact; as the fist is retracted the void allows the compressed area to expand rapidly and the bag will bounce or dance and not just swing. It takes hard powerful punching to make the bag dance.



I can do that. Next time I'll try to make that more apparent.


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## Bill Mattocks

Ironbear24 said:


> There is a mirror along the side of the wall that I have a bad habit of glancing at to check on my form and feet positioning. It is a bad habit I am trying to break. My fighting style is mostly Kenpo with some Judo.
> 
> Thanks for the advice, I'll try to keep my elbows more tucked in.



Well, keep your wrist straight, and try to avoid telegraphing so much.


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## Bill Mattocks

kempodisciple said:


> Not going to get into an argument about efficacy of different ways of generating power, since IMO there are multiple ways to do this. But..If he's able to move a 120 pound bag like that, I assume he's generating a decent amount of power



Nah, those were pushes. 



> I was thinking that..I felt like he was doing it to prove a point to another user he argued with recently. Found it funny.



Yeah, but here's the thing. If you're throwing shade with a look away kick, it shouldn't be a half-assed kick, ya know?  Like the Sheriff crushing the Dixie cup in jaws. Fails to overwhelm.


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## JowGaWolf

giggskadabra said:


> damage to the nerves in your hands, and damaging your wrists.


Not if you hit and train with the bag correctly.  I've been hitting the heavy bag without gloves for so long now that I can't even remember if I have ever hit it without gloves before.   Hitting it without gloves will teach you proper fist alignment and it will teach you not to swipe at the bag which is common when using gloves.  Sometimes people with the worst punching techniques are often those who use gloves.  They trade "excessive power" (hitting harder than what their wrist can handle) for conditioning and technique.   When the gloves come off they usually end up hurting themselves.

Conditioning for the hands on heavy bag should start with soft to medium punches and gradually building up to heavier punch.  Each punch should be focused on technique even when hitting hard. 

I used to hit a canvas bag and am currently looking for a new one.  The canvas bag will teach you not to swipe your punch meaning that any punch that isn't direct will tear the skin off your hand.  I learned how to punch that bag at an angle without ripping the skin off my knuckles.  I have no nerve damage, my knuckles aren't ugly like boxer knuckles.

The most common phrases in my school are "Don't punch harder than what your wrist support or handle" and "Focus on technique and not power."

Power comes with technique, not without it.


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## JowGaWolf

giggskadabra said:


> common boxing injury is a fractured knuckle even with all the protection of their hands.


The reason this happens is because they punch harder than what their hands are conditioned for.


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## JowGaWolf

giggskadabra said:


> yeah i guess everyones different, i have quite weak wrists so im not always confident without using wraps, like i said in my previous post though i do train without them and im usually fine.


Stopping when it hurts is key to not having nerve damage.  It's important to listen to the body.  I do the exact same thing and my Sifu always reminds students that we have to stop conditioning once we feel bruising.


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## JowGaWolf

Ironbear24 said:


> There is a mirror along the side of the wall that I have a bad habit of glancing at to check on my form and feet positioning. It is a bad habit I am trying to break. My fighting style is mostly Kenpo with some Judo.
> 
> Thanks for the advice, I'll try to keep my elbows more tucked in.


Video yourself doing your drills, kata/forms, and techniques.  This way you can get a true picture of what you are doing correct and what you are doing wrong. Your techniques will always be wrong as long as you are trying to look at yourself in the mirror while you are doing your technique.  Replace your mirror checks with video checks.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Bill Mattocks said:


> Nah, those were pushes.


You're right. First time watching i was watching on my phone while eating, so was not paying too much attention. Looking again, I still do not have an issue with his 'push-punches' though. Only issue I do have is with his guard before the punches, especially at the beginning. Ironbear-your arm is cocked back farther than your face would like in a fight, and your elbows tend to stick out a bit.



> Yeah, but here's the thing. If you're throwing shade with a look away kick, it shouldn't be a half-assed kick, ya know?  Like the Sheriff crushing the Dixie cup in jaws. Fails to overwhelm.


Hey! No one ever accused a kenpoist of having a good spinning kick!


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## Ironbear24

Bill Mattocks said:


> Yeah, but here's the thing. If you're throwing shade with a look away kick, it shouldn't be a half-assed kick, ya know? Like the Sheriff crushing the Dixie cup in jaws. Fails to overwhelm.



Are you saying the kicks were underwhelming? If so how can they be improved?


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## drop bear

Ironbear24 said:


> Are you saying the kicks were underwhelming? If so how can they be improved?



Why do you want to throw that kick specifically? It might be a bit boring but it is safer to never turn your back.

Then spin when everything else is neatened up.


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## Bill Mattocks

Ironbear24 said:


> Are you saying the kicks were underwhelming? If so how can they be improved?



Yes, to me (and bear in mind that I am expert in nothing, just a student, OK?) the kicks were slow, telegraphed, underpowered, and delivered incorrectly.  But as I also said, I don't know your style, so maybe that's how your style does it.  I don't know your instructor or what you've been taught.  My best advice would be to do what your sensei tells you to do and ignore what anyone else tells you, including me.

If you want to know how *I* would deliver such a kick, I can break it down for you.  First, I don't do those kicks!   Some of our younger guys do, but I don't typically practice them.

In the kind of kick you were doing, you want to keep your eye on the target to the extent possible.  You turned your head away and never looked at the target again.  An opponent would simply step back out of kicking range, or step to the side and wait for you to deliver to the target that was no longer there, then blast you from behind.  You threw your hands around to assist your body turning, but without using them either defensively or offensively; they were simply counter balancing your body.  That creates openings for your opponent and fails to defend your head at the same time.  Your foot was facing up, you delivered the kick with the side of your heel.  Some styles do it this way, so it's hard for me to criticize it, but I would not deliver the kick this way.  I'd turn the foot (in this case towards the camera) and deliver with the heel as if it was a sideways ax kick.  This also allows you to use the lever action of the knee to provide more power.  What you have is a club.  Clubs can hurt, and they can move things, but they don't typically create the kind of fight-ending damage you're looking for.  Your landing was also off-balance, you staggered around for a second to get your footing.  If you had missed with the kick, you would have fallen down.  If you didn't fall down, if your opponent had simply stepped outside your kicking range when he saw you wind up, he would have made you fall down at that point.

Here is an example of what I am talking about.  This is not me, I can't kick this high or this pretty.  I am also not a TKD stylist, as this gentleman apparently is.  However, to my mind, his form is excellent.  Eyes on target (look closely you will see), hands in defensive position, heel properly aligned to target, balance strong (when you only have one leg to balance on, you want a good one-point).


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## Buka

Ironbear24 said:


> Are you saying the kicks were underwhelming? If so how can they be improved?



To me, this is the attitude every good Martial Artist and/or fighter should have.
Bravo.


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## Bill Mattocks

Buka said:


> To me, this is the attitude every good Martial Artist and/or fighter should have.
> Bravo.



I absolutely agree.  And my comments were not meant to be taken personally.  I also have to be very careful. You never know what a person is being taught, and I don't want to (and have no authority to) contradict anything someone is being taught.  And as I said early on, it takes a lot for a person to put themselves out there like that, so bravo to that too.


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## Ironbear24

This is the exact reason why I wanted to post the video. So it could be critiqued and I know what to improve on. I appreciate all the help and advice and will always welcome it. I know I am good, but I want to be better than good and be incredible.


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## Flying Crane

I don't have a problem with what people are calling a push in the punch.  As long as it is follow-through on the punch, part of that same energy, I'm completely fine with it.

However, if you first impact the bag and then push through it, almost as a separate movement that becomes a deliberate push, then I agree it is not a good punch.


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## drop bear

Double post.


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## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> I don't have a problem with what people are calling a push in the punch.  As long as it is follow-through on the punch, part of that same energy, I'm completely fine with it.
> 
> However, if you first impact the bag and then push through it, almost as a separate movement that becomes a deliberate push, then I agree it is not a good punch.



There is not so much push in a ko punch as far as I can see.





A really good example. The hand hits and you see the force transfer into the head.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Ironbear24 said:


> Are you saying the kicks were underwhelming? If so how can they be improved?


I'm not sure what part of your foot your hitting with, you drop your guard, and you're not following through are the two biggest things for me. Your letting your foot bounce off the bag afterwards, and on the second one your practically walking away before it even landed.
If you have someone who can hold bags for you, id suggest get him to do that, and make sure after you kick your landing forward, with your kicking foot towards your uke in a fighting stance, it'll help you from stopping the kick once contact is made.
Your partner could also tell you if you're looking away from him or dropping a guard, not sure what to do about what part of the foot your kicking with besides focus on it (unless I am mis-seeing it).

As always, if you're currently training with a sensei, show the video to your sensei, and tell him the advice you received. Since it's his style you are learning, and he likely knows you better than we do, his advice is much more important than our own.


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## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> There is not so much push in a ko punch as far as I can see.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A really good example. The hand hits and you see the force transfer into the head.


I'm not sure what you are trying to tell me.


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## GiYu - Todd

I've never used wraps or gloves for heavy bag work.  I use a smooth bag and a canvas bag, but limit my impacts to about 100 per week since I'm getting older.  In a fight you're not going to be wrapped/gloved, so it's a good idea to train as you would fight.  However, you need to be careful to avoid injury by building up slowly.  As with many newbies, I got careless and tried to kill the bag before my form was any good... typically rolling my wrist inward and setting my training back until I healed.  Extended "push punches" are also not necessarily bad when developing arm/wrist positioning.  As your skill improves and you gain wrist confidence, the punches should be faster/harder and should pull back swiftly to avoid giving the opponent something to grab. 

Glad to see you're willing to seek critiques.  That's a healthy attitude.


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## Ironbear24

drop bear said:


> Why do you want to throw that kick specifically? It might be a bit boring but it is safer to never turn your back.
> 
> Then spin when everything else is neatened up.



1. Because it is fun.
2. Because it looks cool.
3. Because it has lots of power and can be tied into combinations.


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## Ironbear24

More training.

More training.avi

I tried keeping my elbows tucked in more and look at the camera alot less this time, I notice the difference in that alone as I am quicker now than the last one. I did less "pushing" punches this time too, but as always any critiques, and other forms of advice of advice is welcomed.


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## Dinkydoo

Couple of pointers. 

I'm not sure if it's part of your style or not, but that guard leaves a lot of room for people to land strikes on your chin and both sides of your body. If you're tired then it's going to be really hard to block an accurate shot to any of these places quick enough (I do the same thing by dropping my hands a bit when I'm tired, it really just makes everything so much harder for myself in sparring). 

Try to turn your hip more into the roundhouse kick rather then rely on the flicking motion alone. 

Don't stop the bag with your hands, either time it on the move or enter close range and let it bounce off your guard to stop it moving. 

Move around the bag as if it was a person you're fighting. 

Well done for posting another video. It's easy to sit here and point out things we'd do differently.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Ironbear24 said:


> More training.
> 
> More training.avi
> 
> I tried keeping my elbows tucked in more and look at the camera alot less this time, I notice the difference in that alone as I am quicker now than the last one. I did less "pushing" punches this time too, but as always any critiques, and other forms of advice of advice is welcomed.


You can try this if you like.  It's the way I learned how to punch the heavy bag.
Before you start measure your distance. Make sure your punch range is so that bag rests against the lead fist without the bag moving.  What I noticed when watching in slow motion, is that your lead punch is isn't extending which means you are too close on the bag.  Your lead punch is actually shorter than your reverse punch and that shouldn't be the case.  You are leaning into your reverse punch and you shouldn't be doing that, unless you are a boxer.  

Step 1: start off with gentle punches.  Not tapping but gentle punches with speed. Work on trying to hit the bag without making it move a lot.  You want your punches to be fast but with control. You want it to be a real punch without the power. This will help train your ability to pull your fist back fast.  What you'll begin to learn is that the longer you leave your fist out there the more it pushes the bag.  Start with punching the bag one arm at a time, no combination punches. 

Step 2: when you feel that you have "mastered" Step 1, add a little more power. With the same goal of trying to hit the bag with out it moving.  Continue this process until you can hit the bag with 50% power with very little swinging motion in the bag.  

Step 3: Hit the bag with 70% - 80% power.  At this point you should be give the bag a good hit without it moving everywhere.  A visualization of this is to think of your fist as transferring force into the bag and quickly depositing that force into the bag. Or think of it as someone daring you to punch a hot heavy bag that will burn your fist if you leave it on the bag too long.

This is the way I trained my punches and it may help you as well.  Keep in mind that punching is more about technique than about power.  You can't have power without technique so focus on the technique of your punch and how your were trained to punch when not hitting a bag.


----------



## Danny T

Ironbear24 said:


> More training.
> 
> More training.avi
> 
> I tried keeping my elbows tucked in more and look at the camera alot less this time, I notice the difference in that alone as I am quicker now than the last one. I did less "pushing" punches this time too, but as always any critiques, and other forms of advice of advice is welcomed.


Awesome that you are wanting constructive critique. 
As already posted not knowing your particular style I question your open flared elbows in your guard. This leaves your body open to attacks. Bring your elbows in toward your body more. (approx 1 fist from your body). Stop reaching out to stop the bag move and angle into the movement and attack the bag as it returns toward you. Part of learning to do bag work is when to strike it as the ranges and angle change. Treat the bag as an opponent. Would you reach out and hug your opponent with your arms or hands the way you do the bag? I wouldn't. When punching rotate the body and bring the shoulder toward your jaw (the shoulder helps protect your jaw when the fist is extended away from guard position as well as giving good alignment from the fist to the core of the body for power transfer into the target. Turn the hips; power comes from the hips and the ground use them whether it be punching or kicking. There are monsters who have great power in there arms and legs but most of us regular people need good proper fundamentals and alignment for power development and transfer. Use your hips and drive from the ground. Get with your instructor for critique and view a few power punchers. Note their body movements, positions, and range (distance for the target) and do an honest comparison of what they are doing to what you are doing.


----------



## Flying Crane

My advice is to get your corrections from your instructor.  I have to assume there is a systematic methodology that you are learning, and that affects everything you do.  The advice you are getting here may be valid in its own way but may also be contrary to the method you are supposed to be learning.  Following advice from a bunch of strangers online can get you all mixed up, and then your instructor needs to help you correct it all.  So, use caution about what advice you take to.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Ironbear24 said:


> More training.
> 
> More training.avi
> 
> I tried keeping my elbows tucked in more and look at the camera alot less this time, I notice the difference in that alone as I am quicker now than the last one. I did less "pushing" punches this time too, but as always any critiques, and other forms of advice of advice is welcomed.


*Much* better job looking at your target instead of off to the side!

You're still mostly pushing with your punches. I'd offer more specific advice on technique, but I don't know what style you practice and different arts have different approaches to power generation.

I'd put more hip rotation into your roundhouse kicks, but the same caveat applies - I don't know how your art teaches you to throw those.

Your elbows are still really far out from your body. Check with your instructor to see how he wants you to hold them, but as they are now your body is still very exposed.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Flying Crane said:


> My advice is to get your corrections from your instructor.  I have to assume there is a systematic methodology that you are learning, and that affects everything you do.  The advice you are getting here may be valid in its own way but may also be contrary to the method you are supposed to be learning.  Following advice from a bunch of strangers online can get you all mixed up, and then your instructor needs to help you correct it all.  So, use caution about what advice you take to.



Agreed.


----------



## Dirty Dog

I'm late to the party (I've been in Belize SCUBA diving, and the sandy beaches seem to interfere with my WiFi connections...) but I do have a couple comments.
First off... kudos for being willing to put yourself on the spot and on your attitude towards the suggestions that have been offered.
I recommend people start with bag gloves and then, as their conditioning improves, step down to wraps and eventually bare hands. Not everybody will condition to that extent. Gloves interfere with developing proper punching technique, but the protection for the hand and support of the wrist makes them useful when bag training is first begun.
Others have commented on your elbows, so I'll just say I agree with them. 
Your kicks...

In the first video, you're throwing a spinning hook kick. Sort of. But not really. I don't know what your training and experience is, but this particular kick needs a LOT of work.
Foot position: Your foot needs to be pulled towards your head, as in the picture posted (I think by Bill?). Impact should be with the back of the heel. You're impacting on the flat of the foot. Your foot should be parallel to the ground, not pointing upwards. You're halfway between a hook and a crescent kick.
Leg position: Your leg should be straight at the point of impact. Bending the knee prior to impact makes it difficult (or impossible) to strike with the back of the heel, shortens your reach, and steals power (leverage... a longer lever means more power...).
Turn your body and hip through the target.
I wish the video showed your feet, but from what I can see it looks like you're basically swinging your leg, mostly straight, from the floor to the target. This is an option, but I don't think it's ideal because it's slow and telegraphed. Try tucking the leg as you spin and basically throw a side kick 18-24" beside your target, then let your spin carry your foot into your target. That's not a great description, but it's hard to communicate a technique like this in a purely verbal manner.

For your roundhouses... bend the knee. You're swinging the leg straight, which, again, is slow and telegraphs the kick. And it would be, again, useful to see your feet. It looks (in the limited view we have) as if you're not pivoting your supporting foot. This limits your height, decreases your power, and can damage the knee on the supporting leg. The toes on the supporting leg should be pointing away from the target.


----------



## Ironbear24

Oh and just to clarify my stlyes are kenpo and judo. I mostly use kenpo though because it is hard to find sparring partners who are willing to allow grappling, which makes practicing my judo techniques nearly impossible.

My sifu became very ill and could not continue teaching so since then I have not been able to train in my original dojo.


----------



## Flying Crane

Ironbear24 said:


> Oh and just to clarify my stlyes are kenpo and judo. I mostly use kenpo though because it is hard to find sparring partners who are willing to allow grappling, which makes practicing my judo techniques nearly impossible.
> 
> My sifu became very ill and could not continue teaching so since then I have not been able to train in my original dojo.


Kenpo encompasses many many systems, some closely related with a common history, others not at all.

Even within the same system you can find a lot of variation on how an instructor approaches training and building the skills.  It's not cookie-cutter, even with schools that share a curriculum.


----------



## Ironbear24

Flying Crane said:


> Kenpo encompasses many many systems, some closely related with a common history, others not at all.
> 
> Even within the same system you can find a lot of variation on how an instructor approaches training and building the skills.  It's not cookie-cutter, even with schools that share a curriculum.



Yeah as my sifu stated kenpo is more of a "foundation" art and once you have it you will build on it from there becoming a more unique martial artists.

No two of us were the same when it came to martial arts.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Ironbear24 said:


> My sifu became very ill and could not continue teaching so since then I have not been able to train in my original dojo.


That's a really unfortunate situation, for you and for your sifu. By any chance, was there a 'head instructor' or senior student at your dojo before your sifu fell ill that you could learn from?


----------



## Ironbear24

kempodisciple said:


> That's a really unfortunate situation, for you and for your sifu. By any chance, was there a 'head instructor' or senior student at your dojo before your sifu fell ill that you could learn from?



There is his brother but he lives in San Jose. His friend teaches nearby me though. He mixed kenpo with escrima and various phillipino arts. I am planning on signing up there. On occasion my old sifu will go there and teach as well.


----------



## Buka

Best wishes to your Sifu. 

How long have you been training, bro?


----------



## Ironbear24

I been training since I was 14. Took kenpo at 16 and been training on and off for 11 years. The past 2 years I began taking it very seriously.


----------



## FriedRice

Ironbear24 said:


> The original purpose of the video was to prove tobthe user "friedrice" that I do in fact hit the heavy bag with no gloves on. For some reason he didn't believe I could do it.
> 
> Training.avi




Thanks for the video. You should have told me that you posted it. Insomnia brought me here by chance. I thought you meant that you hit a heavy bag hard, with full power. This is more like a 220-230 lb guy pushing it.


----------



## Ironbear24

FriedRice said:


> Thanks for the video. You should have told me that you posted it. Insomnia brought me here by chance. I thought you meant that you hit a heavy bag hard, with full power. This is more like a 220-230 lb guy pushing it.



See the next video. Even in the first one they were punches with an obvious closed fist. And no I'm not 220-230 lb's I'm 205.


----------



## FriedRice

Ironbear24 said:


> See the next video. Even in the first one they were punches with an obvious closed fist. And no I'm not 220-230 lb's I'm 205.


 
Ok, just saw it and it's still a lot of arm punches that's also pushing it. Someone your weight should cause much more impact with better techniques. Which my point was, it would wreck your hands going bare knuckles if you had better techniques for power. But since you're punching it with beginner's, pushing punches then it's not wrecking your hands. And I was pretty close on the weight


----------



## Ironbear24

FriedRice said:


> Ok, just saw it and it's still a lot of arm punches that's also pushing it. Someone your weight should cause much more impact with better techniques. Which my point was, it would wreck your hands going bare knuckles if you had better techniques for power. But since you're punching it with beginner's, pushing punches then it's not wrecking your hands. And I was pretty close on the weight



You are clearly only watching the first video and not the second one where I followed the forums advice and "made the bag dance" as others put it by retracting the fists back faster, so it would not push the bag. Plus this is not the point, the point was you said I could not do it. Well I did it, several times and without push punches. 

I got an idea, how about give me advice then? I will still hit it with no gloves doing every word of advice you give me.


----------



## FriedRice

Ironbear24 said:


> You are clearly only watching the first video and not the second one where I followed the forums advice and "made the bag dance" as others put it by retracting the fists back faster, so it would not push the bag. Plus this is not the point, the point was you said I could not do it. Well I did it, several times and without push punches.
> 
> I got an idea, how about give me advice then? I will still hit it with no gloves doing every word of advice you give me.



The 2nd one is called "more training" right? But ok, fine...you can do it, but only because you're not putting out good power, especially for your size. 

And not sure what that means about the bag dancing, but when you hit it, it should react like it wants to fold in a jerking, snapping fashion from the impact but not swing like that. When it's swinging far out like that, then you're pushing it.


----------



## Ironbear24

FriedRice said:


> And not sure what that means about the bag dancing, but when you hit it, it should react like it wants to fold in a jerking, snapping fashion



Pretty much you got it, that's what it means.

So you got any tips for more power?


----------



## FriedRice

Ironbear24 said:


> Pretty much you got it, that's what it means.
> 
> So you got any tips for more power?


 

For the right cross: as you throw the punch, shift most of your weight onto the front foot and flat footed....rear foot pivots on the ball of it (like putting out a cigarette)....but still firmly grounded......rear knee turns with the pivot.....throw the hip into that direction also.....shoulders loose....hands open (not in a fist) but as it travels towards target, it closes into a tight as possible fist right before impact while turning the fist to position the palm down and contacting with the 1st two knuckles....as the other knuckles make contact on their own, but less....causing a whip-like impact.   Head stays right above the groin as much as possible and bend the front knee just a little bit like you're about to sit down on a chair, but very, very little.

All done in one motion and say bye bye to your fists after a few weeks, as your power is refined while doing this w/o wraps & gloves.


----------



## Ironbear24

FriedRice said:


> All done in one motion and say bye bye to your fists after a few weeks, as your power is refined while doing this w/o wraps & gloves.



Thanks for being helpful, my instructors have always told me to keep my fists closed because if my fingers get hit they could break, but the rest of the advice sounds good and I'll take note of them. I'll try to get the camera better angled so everyone can see the footwork, I do pivot but I would like to know if I am pivoting correctly ect. 

I been using the first two knuckles as the area of impact but I can definitely do some work on my knees being bent. It sounds like in general my stance needs to be refined. I will prove you wrong by the way  and do it with no gloves on. My fists get stronger everytime I do this so long as I am using proper technique.


----------



## FriedRice

Ironbear24 said:


> Thanks for being helpful, my instructors have always told me to keep my fists closed because if my fingers get hit they could break, but the rest of the advice sounds good and I'll take note of them. I'll try to get the camera better angled so everyone can see the footwork, I do pivot but I would like to know if I am pivoting correctly ect.



Keeping fists closed always, is not completely bad, but not a good way to get good, IMO.
1. your wasting energy and muscles vs. just relaxing hands
2. if you block with a closed fist, it could cause you to punch your own face
3. closed fists will angle the little bones in the back of your hand towards their powerful and much more solid knuckles flying towards them...you'll hurt more or break.
4. palms open and facing your opponent is how you should defend...by catching punches, especially bare knuckle fights...it's very easy to stop full power punches coming if you time the catch....closed fist then it's fist on fist, but again with your bony, weaker bones at the front line.

The bad would be, when you punch and you're not used to closing your fist fast enough, then you may land with a semi-opened fist, and you can break your hand. But if you train enough, it just becomes 2nd nature.



> I been using the first two knuckles as the area of impact but I can definitely do some work on my knees being bent. It sounds like in general my stance needs to be refined. I will prove you wrong by the way  and do it with no gloves on. My fists get stronger everytime I do this so long as I am using proper technique.



Dude, why? You're hands certainly will get conditioned & stronger, but it will never catch up to the science of good techniques to significantly increase punching power. Also, the better you get at it, the more your other joints will suffer....like the shoulders, elbows, etc....that's why Fighters will buy new gloves often....the foam wears out....and the foam is what helps absorb the impact ...but it still gets transferred....and this is w/o making mistakes, b/c mistakes will instantly sprain wrist, fingers, etc.   Our bags are 150-250 lbs. I think  I can't imagine hitting the long, teardrop Fairtex one at full power w/o protection.


----------



## Ironbear24

So I can stronger quicker.


----------



## Ironbear24

*get


----------



## FriedRice

Ironbear24 said:


> So I can stronger quicker.


 
But if you make a mistake on the bag, and it's going to happen....like sprain your wrist, then you'll be out for a while or even very long time....diminishing the returns of working towards your main goal.

Want to know the Muay Thai way of throwing round house kicks? Much more powerful than all other styles.


----------



## Ironbear24

FriedRice said:


> But if you make a mistake on the bag, and it's going to happen....like sprain your wrist, then you'll be out for a while or even very long time....diminishing the returns of working towards your main goal.
> 
> Want to know the Muay Thai way of throwing round house kicks? Much more powerful than all other styles.



Let's hear it.


----------



## FriedRice

Ironbear24 said:


> Let's hear it.



Muay Thai Rear Leg Kick (1 variation, Step Rear Leg):  Lead foot step diagonally forward at 45deg about 12-15 inches with lead foot pointed 45deg towards the direction   that the kick will be swinging....lead hand cups the your cheek & elbow tucked against ribs for defense....Rear, kicking leg lifts up like throwing a Curved knee (so wide to open up the hips) but halfway through, hips turns and lower leg/shin is limp as it swings towards target in a downward, chopping motion (targeting their thigh)....same arm of kicking leg, swings completely downward fast & hard with shoulder pushed towards chin that's tucked down into shoulder for protection......as upper torso bends in diagonally down & forward (or to the side)....upon impact using the shin, the limp leg stiffens and tightens.....so all in one motion starting only with the step being by itself.


----------



## Dirty Dog

FriedRice said:


> Want to know the Muay Thai way of throwing round house kicks? Much more powerful than all other styles.



Not true. Not true at all.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Dirty Dog said:


> Not true. Not true at all.


I could have saved them all of the science data.  Any attack where you are launching the weight of the body into the attack will be significantly harder.  We were discussing this same thing about generating power of a punch and how boxers and some martial artists generate the force for their punch and that there is a difference between throwing the body into a strike verses shifting weight into a punch.

The slow motion of the video shows the body being thrown into the kick.  The only issue that I have is that the kick's maximum power is going to vary with the person's body weight, someone lighter isn't going to be able to generate the same force simply because they have a lighter mass.  I wonder if they made sure that the fighters weighed the same and if the density of the leg was taken into consideration as well.


----------



## FriedRice

Dirty Dog said:


> Not true. Not true at all.



That's an old video and mostly about the talent of the kicker, with maybe the exception of Capoeirista that looks more like a wheel kick.


----------



## Dirty Dog

FriedRice said:


> That's an old video and mostly about the talent of the kicker, with maybe the exception of Capoeirista that looks more like a wheel kick.



So a better kicker will kick harder. That's sort of a "well duh..." comment. 
The point is that the Muay Thai roundhouse is not, despite your claim, inherently stronger.


----------



## FriedRice

Dirty Dog said:


> So a better kicker will kick harder. That's sort of a "well duh..." comment.
> The point is that the Muay Thai roundhouse is not, despite your claim, inherently stronger.



Wrong, a better kicker using Muay Thai technique for a roundhouse kick will kick harder than himself, using Karate techniques for a roundhouse kick.


----------



## Ironbear24

FriedRice said:


> Wrong, a better kicker using Muay Thai technique for a roundhouse kick will kick harder than himself, using Karate techniques for a roundhouse kick.



The way they are thrown though is pretty much the same. Unless you are talking about the step in round house which is more of a "snap" instead of making the full rotation. You always pivot on the ball of your foot and use the bottom of the shin as the striking surface while leading your body.

Your description was good, but I still mind of got lost in the details as there were lots of them. Could you post a video explaining through actions?


----------



## FriedRice

Ironbear24 said:


> The way they are thrown though is pretty much the same. Unless you are talking about the step in round house which is more of a "snap" instead of making the full rotation. You always pivot on the ball of your foot and use the bottom of the shin as the striking surface while leading your body.
> 
> Your description was good, but I still mind of got lost in the details as there were lots of them. Could you post a video explaining through actions?



Here's one: 




And I was talking about the Capoeira kick being partly wheel kick, rather than a roundhouse.  While a TKD's style roundhouse is different than the Muay Thai's, so if the same guy uses both techniques, his kicking the MT way, it will be more powerful.


----------



## Ironbear24

FriedRice said:


> Here's one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I was talking about the Capoeira kick being partly wheel kick, rather than a roundhouse.  While a TKD's style roundhouse is different than the Muay Thai's, so if the same guy uses both techniques, his kicking the MT way, it will be more powerful.



Yeah we were taught to do it that way. But it was often debated if the arm should be swung or not. I like swinging it but some say that it leaves your face open. Idk, right now I suffer from trying to be too fast and I end up making things sloppy. It's get to see things slow like this.


----------



## Dirty Dog

FriedRice said:


> Wrong, a better kicker using Muay Thai technique for a roundhouse kick will kick harder than himself, using Karate techniques for a roundhouse kick.



You do have something other than your own unsupported word for this, right? The video I posted, in which kicking power was actually measured instead of guesstimated, says you're wrong.
I know that being wrong can be difficult to deal with, but unless you can provide some actual science to support your claim, you probably will need to do so.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

FriedRice said:


> Wrong, a better kicker using Muay Thai technique for a roundhouse kick will kick harder than himself, using Karate techniques for a roundhouse kick.


Any chance you have some sort of video where the same person kicks in both styles and a way to compare the strength of both? Without that there's no reason to believe your statement over the video which actually measured kicking power of people who are experts at their chosen art. My only issue with the video is the one that JowGaWolf brought up, but that shouldn't be enough of a difference to make the taekwondo kick go from much more powerful than the MT kick to much less. If anything it _might_ even the two out.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Ironbear24 said:


> Yeah we were taught to do it that way. But it was often debated if the arm should be swung or not. I like swinging it but some say that it leaves your face open. Idk, right now I suffer from trying to be too fast and I end up making things sloppy. It's get to see things slow like this.


It does leave your face open.  It's a high risk move when used against people who aren't afraid to move forward when a person is kicking.  As long as you can kick it fast enough and at long distance then you'll be o.k.  If someone get inside the range then they'll be able hit your face depending on how far back you are leaning.

The weakest point of that kick is at the center of it's rotation so the closer a person can get to the center the more danger the kicker will be in.  From experienced I moved in on a TKD round house and his thigh hit my sides and at that same time I gave him a stiff jab (not hard) right under his jaw. Had I put full force into he probably would have been done.  There's really no way to give with a punch that comes lands underneath the jaw.  You can lightly tap yourself under the jaw with your fist and you'll get a good idea of how uncomfortable it is.
The other risk from that kick is the risk for a leg sweep which is easier to do than trying to hit the face.  The punch is good but the leg sweep is easier.  I would be more worried about someone moving in and sweeping.


----------



## FriedRice

Ironbear24 said:


> Yeah we were taught to do it that way. But it was often debated if the arm should be swung or not. I like swinging it but some say that it leaves your face open. Idk, right now I suffer from trying to be too fast and I end up making things sloppy. It's get to see things slow like this.



Yea, many other MA's thinks that the arm swinging leaves you open....but the shoulder is up and the step at 45 deg, and upper torso bending, is apart of the defense to dodge a cross.  
And the landed kick is meant to cause maximum damage and shock, to give you that split second to the swinging arm back up. 

This is how it's done in Muay Thai and MMA, pretty much 99% of the time...with the rear leg roundhouse being their bread & butter.....and who fights more, Muay Thai fighters with 200-400 fights in their careers in Thailand or other TMA fighters?


----------



## FriedRice

Dirty Dog said:


> You do have something other than your own unsupported word for this, right? The video I posted, in which kicking power was actually measured instead of guesstimated, says you're wrong.
> I know that being wrong can be difficult to deal with, but unless you can provide some actual science to support your claim, you probably will need to do so.



Man, I just told you...that video was based on the TALENT of the fighter.  Making that TKD guy, kick the MT way......after some decent practice time, he'd be kicking harder than his TKD kick.

Fight Science is BS at times....like the time they put up Lucia Rijker vs. some Male Boxer in a punch test.


----------



## drop bear

FriedRice said:


> Man, I just told you...that video was based on the TALENT of the fighter.  Making that TKD guy, kick the MT way......after some decent practice time, he'd be kicking harder than his TKD kick.
> 
> Fight Science is BS at times....like the time they put up Lucia Rijker vs. some Male Boxer in a punch test.



And i think baz rutten went and broke sone punching records as well. 

OP.  You need to get some instruction on kicks to make them better. 

Trying to figure it out from you tube will be difficult.


----------



## FriedRice

kempodisciple said:


> Any chance you have some sort of video where the same person kicks in both styles and a way to compare the strength of both? Without that there's no reason to believe your statement over the video which actually measured kicking power of people who are experts at their chosen art. My only issue with the video is the one that JowGaWolf brought up, but that shouldn't be enough of a difference to make the taekwondo kick go from much more powerful than the MT kick to much less. If anything it _might_ even the two out.



Unfortunately, I don't know of any such video. But a good test would be for you to try the MT kick out yourself. Get decently used to it and see for yourself. Like if you want to teach me the Kempo style, I'd try it. 

Speaking for myself, I started with TKD for many years and can kick fast and hard. My first MT class, I had to learn this MT, step 45deg, roundhouse. I was resistant to it because I felt that my TKD ways were superior and I kicked harder than many from this 15+ student class and equal to some of the bigger guys with 1+ year MT training....using my TKD style RH.  But as I became receptive to the MT style RH, I realized how much more power my kicks became after only a short period of time. Dudes at KF schools that I went to to spar were impressed by the power also.  Compared to other MT fighters, my kicks are decent but nothing special.


----------



## drop bear

Ironbear24 said:


> Yeah we were taught to do it that way. But it was often debated if the arm should be swung or not. I like swinging it but some say that it leaves your face open. Idk, right now I suffer from trying to be too fast and I end up making things sloppy. It's get to see things slow like this.



Move  your upper body sideways a bit.


----------



## drop bear

FriedRice said:


> Unfortunately, I don't know of any such video. But a good test would be for you to try the MT kick out yourself. Get decently used to it and see for yourself. Like if you want to teach me the Kempo style, I'd try it.
> 
> Speaking for myself, I started with TKD for many years and can kick fast and hard. My first MT class, I had to learn this MT, step 45deg, roundhouse. I was resistant to it because I felt that my TKD ways were superior and I kicked harder than many from this 15+ student class and equal to some of the bigger guys with 1+ year MT training....using my TKD style RH.  But as I became receptive to the MT style RH, I realized how much more power my kicks became after only a short period of time. Dudes at KF schools that I went to to spar were impressed by the power also.  Compared to other MT fighters, my kicks are decent but nothing special.



It is hard to judge i have seen kyukashin guys kick pretty hard.  And they snap. 

For me if i am fighting a better boxer i tend to snap kick.  So i can gtfo as quick as possible.


----------



## JowGaWolf

FriedRice said:


> Yea, many other MA's thinks that the arm swinging leaves you open....but the shoulder is up and the step at 45 deg, and upper torso bending, is apart of the defense to dodge a cross.
> And the landed kick is meant to cause maximum damage and shock, to give you that split second to the swinging arm back up.
> 
> This is how it's done in Muay Thai and MMA, pretty much 99% of the time...with the rear leg roundhouse being their bread & butter.....and who fights more, Muay Thai fighters with 200-400 fights in their careers in Thailand or other TMA fighters?


Proof that it leaves the face open see around 8:50 mark had he moved in forward with the punch, it would have landed solid.


----------



## FriedRice

JowGaWolf said:


> It does leave your face open.  It's a high risk move when used against people who aren't afraid to move forward when a person is kicking.  As long as you can kick it fast enough and at long distance then you'll be o.k.  If someone get inside the range then they'll be able hit your face depending on how far back you are leaning.
> 
> The weakest point of that kick is at the center of it's rotation so the closer a person can get to the center the more danger the kicker will be in.  From experienced I moved in on a TKD round house and his thigh hit my sides and at that same time I gave him a stiff jab (not hard) right under his jaw. Had I put full force into he probably would have been done.  There's really no way to give with a punch that comes lands underneath the jaw.  You can lightly tap yourself under the jaw with your fist and you'll get a good idea of how uncomfortable it is.
> The other risk from that kick is the risk for a leg sweep which is easier to do than trying to hit the face.  The punch is good but the leg sweep is easier.  I would be more worried about someone moving in and sweeping.




There's no perfect technique, everything has counters, defense against them, etc....  The step 45deg and upper torso bend down and diagonally is the defense against the counter-punch.  The chin is down and tucked into the chest and almost covered and behind the shoulder of the arm swinging down. There shouldn't be a clean hit there. 

And you can get swept with pretty much, any other style of MA's roundhouse kick. Muay Thai has many of such sweeps....one is called "cut kicks":


----------



## FriedRice

drop bear said:


> Move  your upper body sideways a bit.



Yes....his Karate way of kicking this RH leaves his whole face right in front of the guy he just kicked.....yes, his hands are taught to be up to block the counter punch or return punch..... but at the cost of a weaker kick.

The Muay Thai RH, addresses this problem by bending the upper body sideways to dodge the punch along with the step 45deg....and going all in on the power to cause max damage....rather than mild damage, allowing the guy to recover faster and punch you as a return.

But there's also the fast RH or switch-step RH.....where there's no step, and the face stays right in front like Karate....but it's not that easy to just punch the kicker real quick when his baseball bat leg is flying in to wreck you. And the leg is longer than the arm.

I know that you know all this, because you train MMA...I'm just putting it out there


----------



## JowGaWolf

FriedRice said:


> There's no perfect technique, everything has counters, defense against them, etc....  The step 45deg and upper torso bend down and diagonally is the defense against the counter-punch.  The chin is down and tucked into the chest and almost covered and behind the shoulder of the arm swinging down. There shouldn't be a clean hit there.
> 
> And you can get swept with pretty much, any other style of MA's roundhouse kick. Muay Thai has many of such sweeps....one is called "cut kicks":


lol the demo guy got hurt from the first sweep. The worst part about a sweep is hitting the ground. You can see on his face that it didn't feel good.  Then the second sweep instruction took a different approach, the "don't sweep me for real approach"


----------



## FriedRice

JowGaWolf said:


> Proof that it leaves the face open see around 8:50 mark had he moved in forward with the punch, it would have landed solid.



Yea, like I said, there's no perfect technique. There are counters to everything. Yi Long got whooped, but not as bad as I thought he would be nor hoped. He's a tough SOB, I admit...but interesting that you don't question his Shaolin Kung-Fu....because he looks just like any garden variety Kickboxer.....more so than Jason Delucia, who you jumped all over   ....in his like, 10sec standing up in the UFC, before Gracie took him down and kept him there until his arm got popped. I mean, DeLucia was def. doing some kind of Kung-Fu stance....and no way was that TKD.

The Philly Shell looks dangerous as hell, but this is my best stance against dudes my level in Muay Thai. Look at James Tonney....hands almost always completely down.






There are risks and rewards to everything.


----------



## Dirty Dog

FriedRice said:


> Man, I just told you...



This may be hard for you to accept, but your unsupported word is worth exactly nothing. And when the objective evidence directly contradicts you, your word is worth less than nothing.



FriedRice said:


> that video was based on the TALENT of the fighter.



So you're basically saying that the professional fighter trained in Muay Thai sucked? I don't think I'd care to say that to his face. And I doubt you would either.



FriedRice said:


> Making that TKD guy, kick the MT way......after some decent practice time, he'd be kicking harder than his TKD kick.



So you say, without any evidence at all to support your claim. That's because your claim is BS. 
Some people will kick harder with the Muay Thai style kick. Some people will kick harder with the Tae Kwon Do style kick.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

FriedRice said:


> Unfortunately, I don't know of any such video. But a good test would be for you to try the MT kick out yourself. Get decently used to it and see for yourself. Like if you want to teach me the Kempo style, I'd try it.


I've actually done this. One of my instructors was a fan of the MT roundhouse, so he had us learn it. Personally I think it's stronger than my styles roundhouse, but we're also not known for our kicks. One of my fellow students came from TKD, however, and learned the MT roundhouse as well. When I would hold a bag for him before/after the change I did not notice feeling any more power from his kick, and it was something that at the time I was consciously looking for.


----------



## JowGaWolf

FriedRice said:


> Yi Long got whooped, but not as bad as I thought he would be nor hoped. He's a tough SOB, I admit...but interesting that you don't question his Shaolin Kung-Fu....because he looks just like any garden variety Kickboxer.


 It's not interesting.  The fact that I don't go around posting Yi Long videos as an example of kung fu techniques in a fight should be a clear sign of what I think of Yi Long in the reference of Kung Fu.   You have never heard me champion Yi Long for kung fu.  You'll always see me post something about Cung Le, but not Yi Long.  Just like I don't bring Jason Delucia out either.  Jason Delucia is almost always brought into a discussion by someone who favors MMA or BJJ and it's usually in the reference of how kung fu doesn't work.


----------



## FriedRice

JowGaWolf said:


> It's not interesting.  The fact that I don't go around posting Yi Long videos as an example of kung fu techniques in a fight should be a clear sign of what I think of Yi Long in the reference of Kung Fu.   You have never heard me champion Yi Long for kung fu.  You'll always see me post something about Cung Le, but not Yi Long.  Just like I don't bring Jason Delucia out either.  Jason Delucia is almost always brought into a discussion by someone who favors MMA or BJJ and it's usually in the reference of how kung fu doesn't work.



Interesting. I personally think that Yi Long, Cung Le and DeLucia are all legit Kung-Fu and Kung-Fu certainly does work in MMA just like Karate does. 

Like Sports BJJ, where there's a ton of techniques that are trained that doesn't work well or not at all in MMA. There are top 10 UFC contenders and even champions, who are still White Belts in BJJ because they hardly ever train with a gi in Sports BJJ b/c it's a waste of their time as a Fighter. So this is almost like, but not as bad, as the flowery form Kung-Fu guys who competes such flowery forms with no contact. Now it doesn't necessarily mean that these flowery KF guys can't fight, they could....just that they've also spent a ton of time  memorizing and doing those flowery forms.....not completely for nothing, as they do help with certain aspects of fighting like cardio, agility, etc....just not the best time & energy spent, IMO, if MMA fighting was the main goal. And this is what Cung Le and Yi Long concentrate on, competition fighting....which disregards most to virtually all, flowery forms and get right to the fighting aspect....which then....the Kung-Fu guy now looks just like Muay Thai or Kickboxing. This is why Muay Thai dominates the standup training for MMA, it gets right to it.


----------



## FriedRice

Dirty Dog said:


> This may be hard for you to accept, but your unsupported word is worth exactly nothing. And when the objective evidence directly contradicts you, your word is worth less than nothing.



No, I argued against your TV show evidence and already told you why they are flawed. Do you believe everything you see on TV?



> So you're basically saying that the professional fighter trained in Muay Thai sucked? I don't think I'd care to say that to his face. And I doubt you would either.



Nice try. Try reading what I said again. I said the TKD RH kicker is more talented. Is this an impossibility? 



> So you say, without any evidence at all to support your claim. That's because your claim is BS.
> Some people will kick harder with the Muay Thai style kick. Some people will kick harder with the Tae Kwon Do style kick.



Very good, now you're starting to understand. It's the Kicker and with the better kicking technique of Muay Thai, his RH kick would be stronger than this TKD technique.


----------



## FriedRice

kempodisciple said:


> I've actually done this. One of my instructors was a fan of the MT roundhouse, so he had us learn it. Personally I think it's stronger than my styles roundhouse, but we're also not known for our kicks. One of my fellow students came from TKD, however, and learned the MT roundhouse as well. When I would hold a bag for him before/after the change I did not notice feeling any more power from his kick, and it was something that at the time I was consciously looking for.



Now this kind of depends on how long he's been training the MT style. It did take me some time to get good at it, coming from TKD. Then, there's also a point where my kicks have reached the limit of it's power and where my style of TKD and MT has meshed and it's just a RH kick now where there's no real distinction....well maybe with the exception of the step 45deg, kick RH which is very indicative of being MT.  

Like in TKD, most RH are chambered and then snap. This certainly doesn't generate the same power as an MT fighter's  full swing through like a baseball bat. But TKD guys can certainly throw the same kick if they wanted only to land one hard kick rather than snap 10 of them in 1 flurry for points.


----------



## JowGaWolf

FriedRice said:


> Interesting. I personally think that Yi Long, Cung Le and DeLucia are all legit Kung-Fu and Kung-Fu certainly does work in MMA just like Karate does.


Ironically if you want to see a lot of kung fu technique in action then you have to look at everyday people who are trying to use their kung fu system to fight with. The sample size is much larger so you are more likely to see someone who is good with using the application.  In the professional world of fighting the sample size is smaller so it's more difficult to find fighting that screams Kung Fu.

Yi Long fights kickers and he understands kickers.  When they kick sweep their leg.  That's the game plan.  Because of the type of fighters he's going against he's not going to need much kung fu beyond the basics punches, kicks, and sweeps.  You'll often see him move inside of the range of a kick, taking advantage of the fact that a person can't retreat while on one leg, and a round house kick gets weaker the closer you get.  Buakaw understood stood this and threw more knees than roundhouses.  If he were to fight in an MMA match that same plan wouldn't work and it would give him more opportunities to use different techniques especially since he would be able to use open hand gloves.




FriedRice said:


> flowery form Kung-Fu guys.


Kung Fu can be separated into 2 camps. There's a group that does the flowery stuff and then there's a group that doesn't.  Wushu often gets lumped into the flowery group




Then you have other systems that are less exciting compared to wushu.  Each move in the form has a purpose and function and movement isn't wasted on doing movement without purpose.





Wushu gets the big spot light when Kung Fu is mention so many people just assume that most Kung Fu is Flowery.  The majority of the kung fu systems out there aren't flowery but they also aren't as popular because no one looks cool doing it lol.


----------



## drop bear

FriedRice said:


> Now this kind of depends on how long he's been training the MT style. It did take me some time to get good at it, coming from TKD. Then, there's also a point where my kicks have reached the limit of it's power and where my style of TKD and MT has meshed and it's just a RH kick now where there's no real distinction....well maybe with the exception of the step 45deg, kick RH which is very indicative of being MT.
> 
> Like in TKD, most RH are chambered and then snap. This certainly doesn't generate the same power as an MT fighter's  full swing through like a baseball bat. But TKD guys can certainly throw the same kick if they wanted only to land one hard kick rather than snap 10 of them in 1 flurry for points.



It is awkward comparing those two kicks. The snap has more speed the Thai kick has more mass. Both are methods for developing hurting bombs.

Now more people kick badly snap style because more people do snap kick style martial arts so if you are comparing Barry's child minding service tkd kick with a fight schools muay Thai kick then there is an easy answer.

If you are comparing Andy hug. That dude gets some pep.


----------



## FriedRice

JowGaWolf said:


> Kung Fu can be separated into 2 camps. There's a group that does the flowery stuff and then there's a group that doesn't.  Wushu often gets lumped into the flowery group
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then you have other systems that are less exciting compared to wushu.  Each move in the form has a purpose and function and movement isn't wasted on doing movement without purpose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wushu gets the big spot light when Kung Fu is mention so many people just assume that most Kung Fu is Flowery.  The majority of the kung fu systems out there aren't flowery but they also aren't as popular because no one looks cool doing it lol.



This, I did not know. Thanks   .


----------



## Ironbear24

FriedRice said:


> This, I did not know. Thanks   .



Chinese martial arts are very amazing andbcan be very practical but sadly it is possibly the most difficult to  find, yet alone find a good sifu. So many hacks and phonies are out there that it really gives it a bad reputation.


----------



## FriedRice

Ironbear24 said:


> Chinese martial arts are very amazing andbcan be very practical but sadly it is possibly the most difficult to  find, yet alone find a good sifu. So many hacks and phonies are out there that it really gives it a bad reputation.


 
I think the main problem with Kung-Fu is too much forms and tradition. Like if someone with  a solid TKD background, goes to Muay Thai, we're not going to make them learn the Wai Kru dance...I've never done it in my life. That's why it's rare to see Kung-Fu, transitioning to TKD and vice versa.

Maybe that's why MMA does so well...BJJ offers a quite different aspect of fighting but also Muay Thai doesn't make you completely retrain everything or add in a lot of traditions. Like I wanted to train some Shaolin Kung-Fu to look for techniques that I can use against Muay Thai....but damn, they made me do a ton of forms...which certainly were combat oriented....but if you want to question about the MT RH kick dropping one hand being risky....some of these Shaolin forms, I'm striking with by non striking arm (not just the hand), extended and away from my body.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

FriedRice said:


> Now this kind of depends on how long he's been training the MT style. It did take me some time to get good at it, coming from TKD.


At the time I left, he had been practicing it for ~2 years, while still going to his TKD dojo as well.


> Then, there's also a point where my kicks have reached the limit of it's power and where my style of TKD and MT has meshed and it's just a RH kick now where there's no real distinction....well maybe with the exception of the step 45deg, kick RH which is very indicative of being MT.
> 
> Like in TKD, most RH are chambered and then snap. This certainly doesn't generate the same power as an MT fighter's  full swing through like a baseball bat. But TKD guys can certainly throw the same kick if they wanted only to land one hard kick rather than snap 10 of them in 1 flurry for points.


I think the difference there was that he didn't go from the chamber straight to the roundhouse as a snap. He would get in the chamber, go on the ball of his foot, and pivot so that he could get his full bodyweight behind the kick. No idea if this is the 'traditional' TKD way since I never practiced it, but it's how he practiced.


----------



## Ironbear24

FriedRice said:


> I think the main problem with Kung-Fu is too much forms and tradition. Like if someone with  a solid TKD background, goes to Muay Thai, we're not going to make them learn the Wai Kru dance...I've never done it in my life. That's why it's rare to see Kung-Fu, transitioning to TKD and vice versa.
> 
> Maybe that's why MMA does so well...BJJ offers a quite different aspect of fighting but also Muay Thai doesn't make you completely retrain everything or add in a lot of traditions. Like I wanted to train some Shaolin Kung-Fu to look for techniques that I can use against Muay Thai....but damn, they made me do a ton of forms...which certainly were combat oriented....but if you want to question about the MT RH kick dropping one hand being risky....some of these Shaolin forms, I'm striking with by non striking arm (not just the hand), extended and away from my body.



Stick with it, it may seem akward for us since our fighting styles are more direct, meaning they primarily focus on fighting. Learning this will still expand your knowledge of martial arts in general and that is never a bad thing.


----------



## Flying Crane

FriedRice said:


> This, I did not know. Thanks   .


In the 1950s cultural revolution in China, traditional fighting methods were suppressed and outlawed and a new, modern approach was created by the government.  This new approach was based on the old methods, but with one very important difference:  it was not intended for fighting.  Instead it was intended to be a national performance competition and sport method that was inspired by the old martial methods.  This is where the flowery forms come into the picture, which were only intended as a floor routine and not as a tool for training real fighting methods.  The application of the movements were ignored, and  the movements themselves were altered in favor of aesthetics.  They look pretty but the structure and technique was undermined so it is no longer a viable fighting method.

This is known as "Modern Wushu".  These are what you see in the big tournaments with lots of fancy and flowery forms with leaps and jumps and acrobatics.  Some of these people are outstanding athletes, but they do not train in a real fighting method.

The forms found in the older, traditional fighting methods are not flowery like this, as they are meant to be a functional training tool.  Unfortunately many people do not understand the difference.  Some sifu teach the modern wushu forms and let their students believe they are learning traditional fighting methods.  That is a shame and possibly a fraud it done deliberately and knowingly.  Some people just don't even know what it is that they have been taught, and believe it is one thing when in reality it is the other.  Some people believe the modern forms are viable fighting methods, not knowing they were never even intended to be.


----------



## FriedRice

Flying Crane said:


> In the 1950s cultural revolution in China, traditional fighting methods were suppressed and outlawed and a new, modern approach was created by the government.  This new approach was based on the old methods, but with one very important difference:  it was not intended for fighting.  Instead it was intended to be a national performance competition and sport method that was inspired by the old martial methods.  This is where the flowery forms come into the picture, which were only intended as a floor routine and not as a tool for training real fighting methods.  The application of the movements were ignored, and  the movements themselves were altered in favor of aesthetics.  They look pretty but the structure and technique was undermined so it is no longer a viable fighting method.
> 
> This is known as "Modern Wushu".  These are what you see in the big tournaments with lots of fancy and flowery forms with leaps and jumps and acrobatics.  Some of these people are outstanding athletes, but they do not train in a real fighting method.
> 
> The forms found in the older, traditional fighting methods are not flowery like this, as they are meant to be a functional training tool.  Unfortunately many people do not understand the difference.  Some sifu teach the modern wushu forms and let their students believe they are learning traditional fighting methods.  That is a shame and possibly a fraud it done deliberately and knowingly.  Some people just don't even know what it is that they have been taught, and believe it is one thing when in reality it is the other.  Some people believe the modern forms are viable fighting methods, not knowing they were never even intended to be.



You just blew my mind. That is some incredibly interesting stuff. The Cultural Revolution was the joint that shut down the Shaolin Temple too.


----------



## JowGaWolf

FriedRice said:


> You just blew my mind. That is some incredibly interesting stuff. The Cultural Revolution was the joint that shut down the Shaolin Temple too.


 There are a couple of kung fu movies that show this where, the government didn't want the citizens to have the ability to physically fight back.  The big truth about being able to fight and defend yourself is that those who can fight and defend themselves rarely back down.  When a fighter backs down, it's literally because he doesn't want to fight, and not because he can't, or doesn't know how to fight.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

JowGaWolf said:


> There are a couple of kung fu movies that show this where, the government didn't want the citizens to have the ability to physically fight back.  The big truth about being able to fight and defend yourself is that those who can fight and defend themselves rarely back down.  When a fighter backs down, it's literally because he doesn't want to fight, and not because he can't, or doesn't know how to fight.


Any chance you could share the names of those movies? I would be really interested in watching some of them.


----------



## Ironbear24

I'm going to be uploading more videos shortly. I tried again today but as soon the cam was on I started screwing everything up, I over think it and in general had it at bad angles. I feel like when I try these things without it around I do much better lol.

The first couple times I did fine after so many attempts. I guess I just have to keep in mind that eyes are always watching anyway so I need to learn to not care so much.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Ironbear24 said:


> I'm going to be uploading more videos shortly. I tried again today but as soon the cam was on I started screwing everything up, I over think it and in general had it at bad angles. I feel like when I try these things without it around I do much better lol.
> 
> The first couple times I did fine after so many attempts. I guess I just have to keep in mind that eyes are always watching anyway so I need to learn to not care so much.


Not that I can give advice since I don't video myself working out, but maybe leave it on for like an hour while you're doing it? I'm sure at some point you'll forget that it's there or not overthink it at least for a few minutes.


----------



## Flying Crane

FriedRice said:


> You just blew my mind. That is some incredibly interesting stuff. The Cultural Revolution was the joint that shut down the Shaolin Temple too.


Yeah, there was some really heavy-handed oppression going on.  The old methods survived to some extent, but neighbors were expected to report each other and that meant people disappeared.  It was a really bad time.  Since then things have relaxed and the older people who still remembered the good stuff have worked to bring it back, but a lot was lost and forgotten.

Most of what is now done at the shaolin temple is also modern wushu.  The temple is run by the government and they know it's a money-maker.  People want to go to shaolin to study, but they won't learn the good stuff, especially as a foreigner.  It's all modern wushu.  Oh, they train brutally hard, they can really be outstanding athletes, but still not a fighting method.

It's my understanding that the early days of modern wushu, people could still fight.  Many of them had a background in the old stuff so they could still use it.  With later generations, it became more and more removed from fighting, with heavier emphasis on showmanship, and any remnants of fighting ability was gone.

Some of the current people are trying to move modern wushu back in the direction of having some combat viability, but I don't know what kind of success they are having. I believe Jet Li is among them.  But yeah, he is a modern wushu guy.  I believe he performed for President Nixon at the whitehouse when he was quite young.


----------



## Flying Crane

JowGaWolf said:


> There are a couple of kung fu movies that show this where, the government didn't want the citizens to have the ability to physically fight back.  The big truth about being able to fight and defend yourself is that those who can fight and defend themselves rarely back down.  When a fighter backs down, it's literally because he doesn't want to fight, and not because he can't, or doesn't know how to fight.


I don't know a whole lot about that era, but I believe there was this big thing of, out with the old, in with the new.  I think there was this rejection of all that was old and traditional, even if there was no real threat from it.  People needed to serve the new goals of the nation,and the old ways were a hinderance. So the Maoist government used extreme prejudice to enforce their mandates. It was a brutal time and many people starved to death and disappeared for various transgressions, including practice of traditional martial arts.


----------



## JowGaWolf

kempodisciple said:


> Any chance you could share the names of those movies? I would be really interested in watching some of them.


I'll try to make a list. I'm hoping there is one already out on the internet.


----------



## FriedRice

Flying Crane said:


> It's my understanding that the early days of modern wushu, people could still fight.  Many of them had a background in the old stuff so they could still use it.  With later generations, it became more and more removed from fighting, with heavier emphasis on showmanship, and any remnants of fighting ability was gone.



While I find the historical aspect of the Chinese Cultural Revolution (CCR), fascinating, I still must argue the point that I don't feel such combative aspect of Kung-Fu has been that much lost because it was transformed into the State sponsored, and flowerized, Wushu. 

I can understand that during the take-over of China by Mao, such abilities to revolt would be suppressed...especially the firearms and most edged and blunt weapons.  But as the Commies moves closer to full control, they would lessen the restrictions. Especially around when they became Capitalists and started raking in the $$$$$$$.   And my argument is that, Chinese Sanda/Kickboxers who trains & competes in K-1, etc. are way more dangerous than those who trains real Kung-Fu but never fought in competitions. And Chinese fighters have been doing this for very long time now since the CCR. Because the Communists and especially Asians,  are big on National Pride, especially when it comes to the Martial Arts.  That's why you always see National Arts, pitted against one another....Muay Thai vs. Kung-Fu vs. Karate vs. TKD, etc.   And MMA has also been in China for a while, and that's the highest level of fighting in toughening someone up to kill or be killed. 

Now I appreciate being educated on the history of Wushu. My only experience with Wu-Shu is sparring vs. these Wu-Shu cats, and they are legit with their fighting (not necessarily the ones in this video, but the organization). 




And, I would think that the edged weapons would be a much more serious threat than hand-to-hand Kung-Fu.... regardless of whether they were restricted to Wu-Shu or full out, pre-CCR Kung-Fu....because they're still training to get agile and powerful with the swords, etc. to cut, chop, decapitate.....


----------



## Flying Crane

I don't believe traditional wushu was ever seen as an actual threat by the communists.  Rather, they wanted the nation to conform to their new goals which excluded many traditional cultural artifacts in favor of the new ideals, which included modern wushu.  In essence they were laying down the new rules, and don't you dare disobey.  

Think what you want about the sanda and whatnot.  My purpose really was to give you some perspective on what it is that you may be seeing, when you see Chinese forms, so you understand that there really is a difference, even if you might not know enough about what you are lookin at to be able to identify one from the other yourself.  At least you know that the difference exists, and they are fundamentally opposite in their design and purpose.


----------



## JowGaWolf

FriedRice said:


> While I find the historical aspect of the Chinese Cultural Revolution (CCR), fascinating, I still must argue the point that I don't feel such combative aspect of Kung-Fu has been that much lost because it was transformed into the State sponsored, and flowerized, Wushu.
> 
> I can understand that during the take-over of China by Mao, such abilities to revolt would be suppressed...especially the firearms and most edged and blunt weapons.  But as the Commies moves closer to full control, they would lessen the restrictions. Especially around when they became Capitalists and started raking in the $$$$$$$.   And my argument is that, Chinese Sanda/Kickboxers who trains & competes in K-1, etc. are way more dangerous than those who trains real Kung-Fu but never fought in competitions. And Chinese fighters have been doing this for very long time now since the CCR. Because the Communists and especially Asians,  are big on National Pride, especially when it comes to the Martial Arts.  That's why you always see National Arts, pitted against one another....Muay Thai vs. Kung-Fu vs. Karate vs. TKD, etc.   And MMA has also been in China for a while, and that's the highest level of fighting in toughening someone up to kill or be killed.
> 
> Now I appreciate being educated on the history of Wushu. My only experience with Wu-Shu is sparring vs. these Wu-Shu cats, and they are legit with their fighting (not necessarily the ones in this video, but the organization).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And, I would think that the edged weapons would be a much more serious threat than hand-to-hand Kung-Fu.... regardless of whether they were restricted to Wu-Shu or full out, pre-CCR Kung-Fu....because they're still training to get agile and powerful with the swords, etc. to cut, chop, decapitate.....


If my memory is correct Dennis Brown used Shaolin Kung Fu to win fights and actually was using that before he got into Wu Shu

Here's a quote from him about WuShu
"For a traditionalist, Brown was very open-minded about wushu. "I looked at it as kung fu - as we define it, is a fighting art. It's self defense. Wushu that we were learning, the competition teams, they were performing teams. It was a performance group. And I didn't see where that conflicted with what we did because it came from what we did - it was a performance of our kung fu - anymore than I would hate looking at Chinese opera, the Monkey King or something, and say, 'I don't want to look at that stuff.' It's dance, but it has its root in kung fu. So why can't I study if I'm a kung fu stylist and also want to learn wushu, the beautiful performing arts? They never claimed that they were great fighters or anything. They were performers. And so in a performance competition, they would probably win, but not always. If there was traditional type of competition, they would win."
Source:Welcome to KungFuMagazine

It's not bashing Wushu to refer to them as performance arts kung fu. They already know that, but people outside of China often confuse them with the fighting kung fu.
This is a Wushu Class




This is a what a fighting kung fu class looks like





There is a huge difference. Wu Shu will always look like the WuShu video. Traditional Kung Fu and Kung Fu used for fighting will always look like the second one "boring and non flashy"


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## Flying Crane

JowGaWolf said:


> If my memory is correct Dennis Brown used Shaolin Kung Fu to win fights and actually was using that before he got into Wu Shu
> 
> Here's a quote from him about WuShu
> "For a traditionalist, Brown was very open-minded about wushu. "I looked at it as kung fu - as we define it, is a fighting art. It's self defense. Wushu that we were learning, the competition teams, they were performing teams. It was a performance group. And I didn't see where that conflicted with what we did because it came from what we did - it was a performance of our kung fu - anymore than I would hate looking at Chinese opera, the Monkey King or something, and say, 'I don't want to look at that stuff.' It's dance, but it has its root in kung fu. So why can't I study if I'm a kung fu stylist and also want to learn wushu, the beautiful performing arts? They never claimed that they were great fighters or anything. They were performers. And so in a performance competition, they would probably win, but not always. If there was traditional type of competition, they would win."
> Source:Welcome to KungFuMagazine
> 
> It's not bashing Wushu to refer to them as performance arts kung fu. They already know that, but people outside of China often confuse them with the fighting kung fu.
> This is a Wushu Class
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a what a fighting kung fu class looks like
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a huge difference. Wu Shu will always look like the WuShu video. Traditional Kung Fu and Kung Fu used for fighting will always look like the second one "boring and non flashy"


I reached a point where I just can't even watch the modern wushu stuff anymore.  I've just seen too much of it, been to too many tournaments where that was the main thing.

I can't stand to watch movies where the fight choreography is based on modern wushu.  Watching Yoda have his light saber battle with Christopher Lee in that Star Wars movie was just agony.  Yoda jumping around like a wushu athlete, I hated that.  And Darth Maul in the first prequel, that was all inspired by modern wushu.  They were all awful movies, but the wushu bits just drove a spike thru my heart.  The kill bill movies, hate that stuff.  Ugh.


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## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> I reached a point where I just can't even watch the modern wushu stuff anymore.  I've just seen too much of it, been to too many tournaments where that was the main thing.
> 
> I can't stand to watch movies where the fight choreography is based on modern wushu.  Watching Yoda have his light saber battle with Christopher Lee in that Star Wars movie was just agony.  Yoda jumping around like a wushu athlete, I hated that.  And Darth Maul in the first prequel, that was all inspired by modern wushu.  They were all awful movies, but the wushu bits just drove a spike thru my heart.  The kill bill movies, hate that stuff.  Ugh.



I am a bit like that with keysi. Just think it does not translate well on to screen.


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## FriedRice

JowGaWolf said:


> If my memory is correct Dennis Brown used Shaolin Kung Fu to win fights and actually was using that before he got into Wu Shu
> 
> Here's a quote from him about WuShu
> "For a traditionalist, Brown was very open-minded about wushu. "I looked at it as kung fu - as we define it, is a fighting art. It's self defense. Wushu that we were learning, the competition teams, they were performing teams. It was a performance group. And I didn't see where that conflicted with what we did because it came from what we did - it was a performance of our kung fu - anymore than I would hate looking at Chinese opera, the Monkey King or something, and say, 'I don't want to look at that stuff.' It's dance, but it has its root in kung fu. So why can't I study if I'm a kung fu stylist and also want to learn wushu, the beautiful performing arts? They never claimed that they were great fighters or anything. They were performers. And so in a performance competition, they would probably win, but not always. If there was traditional type of competition, they would win."
> Source:Welcome to KungFuMagazine
> 
> It's not bashing Wushu to refer to them as performance arts kung fu. They already know that, but people outside of China often confuse them with the fighting kung fu.
> This is a Wushu Class
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a what a fighting kung fu class looks like
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a huge difference. Wu Shu will always look like the WuShu video. Traditional Kung Fu and Kung Fu used for fighting will always look like the second one "boring and non flashy"



You know, as much as I bash the Kung-Fu flowery forms, I really like watching it and secretly wish that I can do them like that....especially when I'm training with my knives. 

Thanks for another informative post, esp. on Dennis Brown.


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