# New Student: when will you quit?



## Bill Mattocks

*Dear Prospective New Student:*

First, welcome to our training facility.  We are glad you decided to start your martial arts training journey and we're glad you chose us.  We'd like to share a few things with you to get started, and we'd like to issue a couple of warnings, just so you know what to expect.

*
PRE-QUITTERS:*

We'll never get to know you, unfortunately.  You've called or come by the training facility, picked up some literature, asked some questions.  Maybe you even stayed and watched some training.  You told yourself that this is something you think you'd like to do.  But for whatever reason, you don't come back.  You may be surprised, but every training facility has people who call multiple times to ask about training, and to state that they will definitely be in the next week to start training.  Some call every year in January; must be a New Year's Resolution or something.  Whatever; you won't sign up, you won't train.  You've quit before you've begun.

Some of you will ask around online about training.  Where the local facilities are, if this or that art or trainer is well-respected, and so on.  You'll describe your desire to start training, maybe give some background about yourself.  Perhaps you've been in the military and gotten some martial arts training there.  Perhaps you are a little older and trained in some martial arts style as a child and now you'd like to get back into it.  Perhaps you think it would be a good way to lose some weight, to stay fit, to learn self-defense.  You're very inquisitive, and seem enthusiastic, but you won't actually sign up and start training, for whatever reason.

Some of you will ask about video and book-based training.  You may or may not be pleased with the reply, because although there are some who think martial arts can be learned from a book or from a video, many trained martial artists do not, and they'll give you their unvarnished opinion.  We realize that this will probably lead to some angry words and a rapid departure.  Not only won't you join a martial arts training center, you also won't practice your asked-about book or video learning either.  We won't see you again online, although the discussion threads you've begun will probably continue for some time after you've gone.

Some of you will describe all the ways that it is impossible for you to train in person.  You live many miles from the nearest training facility.  You do not have a job, and therefore no money.  You do not have a vehicle or access to transportation.  You work or go to school when the training facility offers classes.  There are many reasons why local in-person training is not possible for you.  We can offer only this; finding a way to attend training is the first part of your martial arts journey.  If you cannot do this (and your reasons may be quite real, we're not calling you a liar), you would not keep training anyway; because it only gets harder from there.  If you really want to do it, you will find a way to make it happen, even if it means doing things that are quite uncomfortable or difficult, or making long-range plans that include waiting until you can change your circumstances.  Some will recommend that you wait until you can change your circumstances, but that in the meantime, you consider doing calisthenics, working out, doing weight training, becoming flexible, or taking other classes that can help you later; like ballroom dancing, or jazzercise or yoga or other forms of physical activity that require you to develop balance, rhythm,  and increase your endurance and basic fitness level.  You may reject these; after all, they are not what you want to do.  We agree, but we know from the benefit of having trained for awhile in martial arts that these things can and will benefit you; dancers are often quite good martial artists, people who are flexible from yoga find it easy to perform higher kicks, and so on.  Again, if you are unwilling to consider this type of training while you wait until your circumstances change so that you can get started with martial arts training, you are probably not that serious about martial arts training.

And let us just say that being a quitter is not a bad thing.  It's not meant to hurt or insult you.  People choose to do or not do things for all kinds of reasons, and just not wanting to do it is a perfectly valid reason.  There is no shame, and no harm, in deciding you don't want to do something; or in deciding after trying it that is just not for you.  Have no fear; walk away and do something you DO like to do.  We're all different, and we all want different things out of life.  No harm, no foul.  You're still a good person; you just don't want to be a martial artist.  Totally OK.

*DAY ONE QUITTERS:*

About half of our prospective new students quit after the first day.  Reasons vary, and we don't even know all of them, but our theory is that for many, the reality of our martial arts training does not meet up with their expectations.  

For example, we spend at least 30 minutes of our 2-hour training session doing calisthenics and stretching exercises.  We understand if you are not in good physical condition or if you have physical limitations that prevent you from doing everything we do; but do ask you to do what you can.  We do pushups, we do jumping jacks, we do crunchers and situps and we skip rope.  If you are able to keep pace, you will be breathing hard and sweating by the time we're ready to start any kind of actual training.  We do this because it is important to prepare the body and the mind for the activity that is to come.  We have found that some new students did not expect to have to do hard physical exercise, and that's not what they want to do.

We also start our newest students off with extreme basics, such as how to make a fist, how to stand, how to step forward and back, how to punch.  This may seem a far cry from smashing bricks or doing 'real' self-defense, but in grade school, you practiced writing your alphabet before you started writing words, and this is no different.  We have found that some new students do not like the idea of beginning at the very beginning.

It has also been noted that invariably, new students ask us _"How long until I get my black belt?"_  This is a very common and legitimate question, we'd be surprised if you did not ask it; but the answer may not be what you want to hear.  In our training facility, the answer is that it varies, depending upon the student.  At the minimum, it will take several years, and the average for us is probably somewhere in the five year range.  That's a long time, and we understand that may be disappointing for some.  We cannot say that it is not legitimate for a person to have _'earning a black belt'_ as a goal for their training, but in our training facility, we keep two things uppermost in mind.  First, for us, we're more interested in the training we receive than the belt we wear around our waists and second, sho-dan (first degree black belt) is only the beginning of a lifetime's commitment to martial arts training.  We do understand if that is not what you are interested in, but it is what we do here.

*3 MONTH QUITTERS:*

We're always happy when a new student returns, especially after the first day!  Unfortunately, we have also noticed that a lot of students stop coming around the the three-month mark.  Again, we're not certain, but there may be a number of reasons for this. We have noted that some students seem to quit after they have received their first or second belt promotions.  This is disappointing to us, because we've invested a lot in you as a student by now, we've gotten to know and like you as a person, and you've put in a lot of hard work.  We've welcomed you into our family, and no that you're not there, we notice it and we miss you.  We wish you'd come back!

When asked, some have said that they quit because even after three months, they felt they were not learning _'martial arts'._  That is, they were still spending a lot of time on basics.  Stepping, standing, punching, kicking, and the beginnings of kata and the foreign vocabulary words we use in our training facility.  Some of it does not feel like it's very much geared towards self-defense or even the kind of fluid, graceful, martial arts moves one can see in movies or on the Internet.  They might become discouraged or think that they are not progressing.  The fact is, you are progressing, you just don't see it in yourself yet.  You are adding speed and balance and power to your punches, even if you are punching air or a bag.  You are learning distancing and how to hit without hurting your hand, how to kick without hurting your toes.  You're improving; but you just don't see it in yourself yet.  The truth is, you'll probably never see it until you get to the point where you see yourself objectively, but you will get to the point where you see new students who are where you were, and you'll realize that you're not like that anymore.

The seasons are also changing after three months, in many places.  Fall turns into winter, the weather turns bad.  Students go back to school, schedules change for many of us.  It becomes harder to get to the training facility, harder to dedicate the time necessary.  People catch colds and flu and although they are understandably out for a short period, starting again afterwards can be an uphill slog.  The thing you should remember is that there is only one thing that separates many advanced students from beginning students; they kept attending training.  That's it.  No magic.  They're not more talented than you (OK, maybe some are, and you may be more naturally gifted than some of them), but they kept attending training.  If they seem much better than you are now, that's what time and practice does.  That may seem difficult to accept from the 'beginner' side of things, but it's true.

Boredom.  Yes, it's true.  Although we vary the routine in our training facility to try to keep things fresh, ultimately we are doing the same things over and over again.  And there is a certain amount of tedium in it if you do not have a long attention span.  But training the body is not exactly the same as training the mind; the body requires repetition to make certain movements natural and reflexive, to apply speed and power to them.  There will come a time when you will see an opening during sparring and you'll throw a punch or a kick and it will go right where you intended it to go, just as you intended it to land; but it will happen because you have thrown that punch of kick hundreds or thousands of times until it seems as natural as swatting a fly or reaching for a kitchen utensil.  It will be in your 'bag of tricks' and you can call upon it anytime you need it.  But until you do it over and over and over again, knowing the movement is not the same as applying the movement.  Yes, it's boring and repetitive and it gets old.  Part of your martial arts journey will be doing things that are not that much fun, without any apparent short-term benefit.

Afraid to come back after an absence.  Yes, we understand that there are good reasons why you have to stop training for a period of time.  Jobs, school, children, parents, seasons, sickness, injuries, finances, all kinds of reasons, many of them valid.  But we also want you to come back.  We like you by now.  We miss you.  Yes, some of your fellow new students will have advanced since you've been gone.  But that's not a big deal; this is not a race.  You will have lost some training too; you'll forget your kata or forms, your moves will be slow and rusty, you'll have to relearn some things.  But you'll also be surprised at how quickly you'll get it all back once you start training again.  It won't take as long as you think.  So don't think that it's a good idea to stop training permanently just because you had to stop training temporarily.  You don't even have to explain to us why you had to stop; we know how life is.  Just come back and start training again.

*BLACK BELT QUITTERS:*

The saddest thing is to see a student quit training when they receive their sho-dan or first-degree black belt.  One instructor put it this way; _"It hurts to know that they see the benefits and choose not to train anyway."_ A student who earns their black belt has generally shown the kind of dedication needed to keep training, to keep learning, to keep trying, no matter the obstacles put in front of them.  You are actively helping others in the training facility; you are looked up to as leaders and newer students model themselves after you.  You are respected and liked; your absence will be sorely felt.

Why did you quit?  Perhaps you felt like taking a break.  After all, it was a long and difficult climb to that first black belt rank, and there was quite likely an even more difficult last-minute push to make sure you had everything in place to test and pass that milestone.  You were in that last sprint to the finish line and perhaps now it feels like the race is over, or at least that you're not ready to immediately start another race to the next belt.

Hopefully, you don't think you've learned all there is to learn.  Most black belt students are quite aware that those who have advanced black belts have a level of mastery above them as much as they themselves have over a beginner.  You may have learned all the kata or forms, all the exercises, all the weapons; but it would be wrong to say you've mastered them.  Just as a person with a Bachelor's degree in biology understands the basics of human health, they are in no way a medical doctor.

Perhaps you feel that you've ticked a box off your bucket list.  If that's all all you wanted, it's perfectly valid; but it does mystify many of us who have turned the corner of perception from martial arts as a way of learning something (self-defense, good conditioning, etc) into seeing martial arts as a way of life, something to be pursued forever, perpetual students who always strive for a deeper level of understanding.  Everyone has their own reasons for training; and for quitting.   There is no 'right' or 'wrong' to it; but once a student reaches black belt range, many life-long students start to think that all black belts feel the same way about training that they do.  It's often a shock to find out that's not the case.

*THE WAY OF MARTIAL ARTS SUCCESS:*

The secret, prospective student, is simple, even if it is difficult to implement.  Find a training facility you like, with a qualified instructor that you respect, that teaches what you want to learn.  Find a way to attend regularly, even through difficulty and sacrifice.  Then keep training.  Through boredom, through injuries, through changes in your life that make it difficult to train.  If you have to stop, start again as soon as you can.  Practice when you are not able to train in person.  Repeat this for the rest of your life.  That is the secret to martial arts success.


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## yak sao

This should be required reading for everyone who comes to this forum seeking a MA and/or  for anyone who walks into a MA school


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## Steve

The number of people who start training in BJJ vs the number who receive their blue belt is startling.  I wish I could see the statistics.  Really strikes home when I see an old group photo, from class or from a seminar and look at the faces.  He's gone, he's gone, she's gone... who's THAT guy?  

Great article.  Bill, did you write this or is it borrowed from another site?  If you wrote it, well done.


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## Bill Mattocks

Steve said:


> The number of people who start training in BJJ vs the number who receive their blue belt is startling.  I wish I could see the statistics.  Really strikes home when I see an old group photo, from class or from a seminar and look at the faces.  He's gone, he's gone, she's gone... who's THAT guy?
> 
> Great article.  Bill, did you write this or is it borrowed from another site?  If you wrote it, well done.



I wrote it and thanks for the kind words.  I saw a photo of one of our ni-dans being promoted to sho-dan back when I was so new at our dojo that I did not have a gi yet.  I actually thought; _"Who's that fat sweaty  bastard in the t-shirt?"_  Oh yeah.  That was me.


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## Cyriacus

Very, very well Communicated.


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## yak sao

Bill Mattocks said:


> I wrote it and thanks for the kind words. I saw a photo of one of our ni-dans being promoted to sho-dan back when I was so new at our dojo that I did not have a gi yet. I actually thought; _"Who's that fat sweaty bastard in the t-shirt?"_ Oh yeah. That was me.




And now he's that (not so) fat, sweaty bastard in the gi....see kids. It pays not to quit.


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## Bill Mattocks

yak sao said:


> And now he's that (not so) fat, sweaty bastard in the gi....see kids. It pays not to quit.



From the kyu line...I am the fat sweaty bastard in the t-shirt.  There is one other student in the line who continues to train.  The rest appear to have quit.  The two being promoted are still training.  One is a ni-dan and one is a sho-dan.




There are other photos of the dan line; all continue to train to this day.


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## Chris Parker

Nice post, Bill. The only thing that I might say is to specify the particulars are particular to your dojo, for instance our school doesn't do anywhere near as much cardio/fitness work, and the curriculum changes a lot more frequently, so while I agree with your examples, for a beginner (or potential beginner!) to read it and get the idea that it applies equally to all systems and all schools may be a little misleading.


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## Bill Mattocks

Chris Parker said:


> Nice post, Bill. The only thing that I might say is to specify the particulars are particular to your dojo, for instance our school doesn't do anywhere near as much cardio/fitness work, and the curriculum changes a lot more frequently, so while I agree with your examples, for a beginner (or potential beginner!) to read it and get the idea that it applies equally to all systems and all schools may be a little misleading.



Excellent point!  And indeed, some dojos put the calisthenics / stretching on the student to do before class begins, or don't have enough time to work on those things during actual class time.  Absolutely.


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## Steve

Bill Mattocks said:


> Excellent point!  And indeed, some dojos put the calisthenics / stretching on the student to do before class begins, or don't have enough time to work on those things during actual class time.  Absolutely.


In fact, some first day quitters might do so because there wasn't enough of an emphasis on fitness at the school.


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## Hordfest

As a new student I'm happy to say that as of yesterday I have passed the "Pre-Quitter" and "First Day Student Quitter" status.  Great read!


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## Nomad

Steve said:


> In fact, some first day quitters might do so because there wasn't enough of an emphasis on fitness at the school.



True enough.  Probably about the same number as those who quit because there was too much emphasis on fitness, and they weren't prepared to sweat... 

In other words, it really doesn't matter what you do; you'll never please everyone.


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## decepticon

I am just over a year into my kajukenpo training. I don't know why, but it took me a long time to start. For three years or so, I kept saying that I wanted to get my daughter started in a martial arts class. Finally, it just seemed like the right time and it seemed like the right thing for me to sign up also. I think that perhaps there were just too many other things vying for our time until then.

We visited two schools in our area. One put more emphasis on the conditioning and the other more on technique training. We chose the second one. The instructor at the second school told us that we could do our stretching and warm ups on our own time, and focus the time with him on learning technique. Although we were about 6 months before getting into a truly successful groove, we now do conditioning at least 5 days a week, mostly at home on our own.

Although sometimes the repetition is boring, it is never boring when our instructor is teaching. We initially attended only one class per week, though within three months, we had boosted up to attending two classes per week. We have gone faithfully, missing only one week in the last 13 months, due to vacation out of state. As often as possible we also do one semiprivate lesson per week. It is about a 30 mile drive for us to get there, 60 mi round trip.

One of the biggest reasons I think we have continued to train is that we have developed strong relationships with the instructor, his family, and a few others in the class. We go not only to learn more MA each week, but also to be with people that we genuinely like to be around. A second reason is that as we have continued, we find that this style is really a good fit for us.

However, while I love learning MA, it is not my life. I have a family and many other responsibilities to address. I don't have the luxury of devoting myself exclusively to MA. I can also see how severe injury could permanently sideline someone (a guy in my class destroyed his ACL and his Dr. advised against returning to MA, as the "fix" probably wouldn't hold up well in that activity).

My instructor and I have discussed at length how modern lifestyles make it so hard to pursue an ideal MA lifestyle. Unfortuantely MA and the conditioning needed to practice it well and effectively are a real "use it or lose it" situation. I recently discovered, for example, that while my mind still knows how to roller skate, my body has long since forgotten. I fear that the rate of loss would be even quicker with my MA skills if disused.

In an ideal world, we would all be free to pursue that which pleased us as much as we wanted. Unfortunately I live in another place, where I need to be a good wife, feed and clothe a family, run a farm, raise livestock and manage crops, keep a home clean enough to avoid being Condemned by the health department, teach an 8th grader, be a dutiful daughter and daughter-in-law, etc., participate in the work of my church, and contribute positively to my community. But for the consequences, I would love to ditch a couple of those duties on any given day to train in MA. But I don't because there is more need for me to fulfill the other roles than to indulge myself in my warrior fantasies. Perhaps if I truly perceived a wolf to be constantly stalking me and/or at my door, then MA could move up on the priority list.

(I'd love to do three classes a week, plus a private lesson, join the tournament team, and perhaps even assist with some of the children's classes!)


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## jks9199

Bill Mattocks said:


> Excellent point!  And indeed, some dojos put the calisthenics / stretching on the student to do before class begins, or don't have enough time to work on those things during actual class time.  Absolutely.



For several years, I've chosen not to have extensive calisthenics during class, because we only meet once a week and it costs instructional time.  Instead -- we drill.  

But I've got to say -- I'm moving increasingly towards more exercise in class, because I'm seeing people who are running into trouble learning because they lack fitness and strength.  It's a balance I'm adjusting right now...


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## Razor

Very good post. My instructor calculated that in the 11 years he has been teaching at my university, 1200 people have joined and left. They generally seem to fit the categories you describe as well.


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## Buka

That was a great read, Bill. Well done.


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## Bill Mattocks

For what it's worth, the ones I find most intriguing are the ones who call up on the phone, ask questions, and then say _"That sounds great!  I'll be in on Thursday to begin training, see you then!"_  Then they do not show up.  That in itself isn't that odd, but then they call back.  Months or sometimes years later; but they are the same person; you recognize the voice.  They ask the same questions, say the same thing, still don't show up.  First, why tell *us* you're going to show up on X date?  We will be in class regardless of whether you do or don't.  Second, why don't you show up?  Third, why, if you don't plan to show up, do you keep calling and saying you're going to?  So very strange.

Our Sensei also mentions that he runs into former students all the time who stop him when they see him out on the street, greet him warmly, and inform him that a) they are still working on their kata at home and b) they'll be back in the dojo next week.  _"Next week"_ must be code for _"I am never coming back again."_  Because they never do.

But occasionally, we do have students return after being gone for months, years, and in a couple cases, decades.  They come back, and some of them stay and keep training.  Hey, *life happens*.  Doesn't matter what happened to keep you from training, the point is you can train now, so welcome back and get busy!


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## Steve

Bill Mattocks said:


> For what it's worth, the ones I find most intriguing are the ones who call up on the phone, ask questions, and then say _"That sounds great!  I'll be in on Thursday to begin training, see you then!"_  Then they do not show up.  That in itself isn't that odd, but then they call back.  Months or sometimes years later; but they are the same person; you recognize the voice.  They ask the same questions, say the same thing, still don't show up.  First, why tell *us* you're going to show up on X date?  We will be in class regardless of whether you do or don't.  Second, why don't you show up?  Third, why, if you don't plan to show up, do you keep calling and saying you're going to?  So very strange.
> 
> Our Sensei also mentions that he runs into former students all the time who stop him when they see him out on the street, greet him warmly, and inform him that a) they are still working on their kata at home and b) they'll be back in the dojo next week.  _"Next week"_ must be code for _"I am never coming back again."_  Because they never do.
> 
> But occasionally, we do have students return after being gone for months, years, and in a couple cases, decades.  They come back, and some of them stay and keep training.  Hey, *life happens*.  Doesn't matter what happened to keep you from training, the point is you can train now, so welcome back and get busy!


I think you guys are discounting somewhat the fear of the unknown.  Martial arts training is completely outside of many people's experience.  I know that the perception of a BJJ school and the reality are often very different for new students.  It's almost 100% who say something about it not being what they expected.

I had decided to quit my old school and start training in BJJ about 4 months before I actually worked up the nerve to walk into the school.  It takes time.  It's about momentum and nerve and often about steeling ourselves to try something that is totally unknown.  I don't regret it for a minute, but I won't lie. I chickened out about 4 times before I finally just took the plunge.


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## TaekwonTiger

This was really interesting to read, thank you. I've only been training for 8months, I'm a good 3-4 years away from a blackbelt if I never miss training and keep advancing as I am now (currently 4 times a week in training and practice at home). 
I hope I'll be able to do MA for the rest of my life, but 'life' is also what worries me. Currently I've managed to build my job around training and it works out fine...but what if it changes? 
I dont see reaching the belt as such an important thing as such, except that I would love to compete more than twice a year within our organisation - but sadly I am not allowed to go to open competition without a blackbelt (not that I'm that good - I just want to learn, sparr and learn and get more opportunities) so for me personally, in a few years, if I'm really good and worked hard....the blackbelt will only be the start of the journey. I only hope 'Life' will stay out of the way of my training.


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## warriorofanart

That was a revealing read. It shocked me how intuitive it was and hit the nail right on the head. I've been putting off this great club because of distance + cost, but even if I have to endure that four hour round trip, I will. 

Thank you very much for this reading.


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## kungfu penguin

when i trained at a school the sifu said half will quit by blue belt  of the half remaining about 2/3 will quit by brown belt of the remaining about 20 % percent will quit right before or right after black belt    i started with about 22 students in my class  only 7 of us tested for black  within a year after black there were only 3 of us  then i moved away to college so i guess you can say life kicked in   i still train, just in different arts


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## kenpo tiger

bill mattocks said:


> *dear prospective new student:*
> 
> first, welcome to our training facility.  We are glad you decided to start your martial arts training journey and we're glad you chose us.  We'd like to share a few things with you to get started, and we'd like to issue a couple of warnings, just so you know what to expect.
> 
> *
> pre-quitters:*
> 
> we'll never get to know you, unfortunately.  You've called or come by the training facility, picked up some literature, asked some questions.  Maybe you even stayed and watched some training.  You told yourself that this is something you think you'd like to do.  But for whatever reason, you don't come back.  You may be surprised, but every training facility has people who call multiple times to ask about training, and to state that they will definitely be in the next week to start training.  Some call every year in january; must be a new year's resolution or something.  Whatever; you won't sign up, you won't train.  You've quit before you've begun.
> 
> Some of you will ask around online about training.  Where the local facilities are, if this or that art or trainer is well-respected, and so on.  You'll describe your desire to start training, maybe give some background about yourself.  Perhaps you've been in the military and gotten some martial arts training there.  Perhaps you are a little older and trained in some martial arts style as a child and now you'd like to get back into it.  Perhaps you think it would be a good way to lose some weight, to stay fit, to learn self-defense.  You're very inquisitive, and seem enthusiastic, but you won't actually sign up and start training, for whatever reason.
> 
> Some of you will ask about video and book-based training.  You may or may not be pleased with the reply, because although there are some who think martial arts can be learned from a book or from a video, many trained martial artists do not, and they'll give you their unvarnished opinion.  We realize that this will probably lead to some angry words and a rapid departure.  Not only won't you join a martial arts training center, you also won't practice your asked-about book or video learning either.  We won't see you again online, although the discussion threads you've begun will probably continue for some time after you've gone.
> 
> Some of you will describe all the ways that it is impossible for you to train in person.  You live many miles from the nearest training facility.  You do not have a job, and therefore no money.  You do not have a vehicle or access to transportation.  You work or go to school when the training facility offers classes.  There are many reasons why local in-person training is not possible for you.  We can offer only this; finding a way to attend training is the first part of your martial arts journey.  If you cannot do this (and your reasons may be quite real, we're not calling you a liar), you would not keep training anyway; because it only gets harder from there.  If you really want to do it, you will find a way to make it happen, even if it means doing things that are quite uncomfortable or difficult, or making long-range plans that include waiting until you can change your circumstances.  Some will recommend that you wait until you can change your circumstances, but that in the meantime, you consider doing calisthenics, working out, doing weight training, becoming flexible, or taking other classes that can help you later; like ballroom dancing, or jazzercise or yoga or other forms of physical activity that require you to develop balance, rhythm,  and increase your endurance and basic fitness level.  You may reject these; after all, they are not what you want to do.  We agree, but we know from the benefit of having trained for awhile in martial arts that these things can and will benefit you; dancers are often quite good martial artists, people who are flexible from yoga find it easy to perform higher kicks, and so on.  Again, if you are unwilling to consider this type of training while you wait until your circumstances change so that you can get started with martial arts training, you are probably not that serious about martial arts training.
> 
> And let us just say that being a quitter is not a bad thing.  It's not meant to hurt or insult you.  People choose to do or not do things for all kinds of reasons, and just not wanting to do it is a perfectly valid reason.  There is no shame, and no harm, in deciding you don't want to do something; or in deciding after trying it that is just not for you.  Have no fear; walk away and do something you do like to do.  We're all different, and we all want different things out of life.  No harm, no foul.  You're still a good person; you just don't want to be a martial artist.  Totally ok.
> 
> *day one quitters:*
> 
> about half of our prospective new students quit after the first day.  Reasons vary, and we don't even know all of them, but our theory is that for many, the reality of our martial arts training does not meet up with their expectations.
> 
> For example, we spend at least 30 minutes of our 2-hour training session doing calisthenics and stretching exercises.  We understand if you are not in good physical condition or if you have physical limitations that prevent you from doing everything we do; but do ask you to do what you can.  We do pushups, we do jumping jacks, we do crunchers and situps and we skip rope.  If you are able to keep pace, you will be breathing hard and sweating by the time we're ready to start any kind of actual training.  We do this because it is important to prepare the body and the mind for the activity that is to come.  We have found that some new students did not expect to have to do hard physical exercise, and that's not what they want to do.
> 
> We also start our newest students off with extreme basics, such as how to make a fist, how to stand, how to step forward and back, how to punch.  This may seem a far cry from smashing bricks or doing 'real' self-defense, but in grade school, you practiced writing your alphabet before you started writing words, and this is no different.  We have found that some new students do not like the idea of beginning at the very beginning.
> 
> It has also been noted that invariably, new students ask us _"how long until i get my black belt?"_  this is a very common and legitimate question, we'd be surprised if you did not ask it; but the answer may not be what you want to hear.  In our training facility, the answer is that it varies, depending upon the student.  At the minimum, it will take several years, and the average for us is probably somewhere in the five year range.  That's a long time, and we understand that may be disappointing for some.  We cannot say that it is not legitimate for a person to have _'earning a black belt'_ as a goal for their training, but in our training facility, we keep two things uppermost in mind.  First, for us, we're more interested in the training we receive than the belt we wear around our waists and second, sho-dan (first degree black belt) is only the beginning of a lifetime's commitment to martial arts training.  We do understand if that is not what you are interested in, but it is what we do here.
> 
> *3 month quitters:*
> 
> we're always happy when a new student returns, especially after the first day!  Unfortunately, we have also noticed that a lot of students stop coming around the the three-month mark.  Again, we're not certain, but there may be a number of reasons for this. We have noted that some students seem to quit after they have received their first or second belt promotions.  This is disappointing to us, because we've invested a lot in you as a student by now, we've gotten to know and like you as a person, and you've put in a lot of hard work.  We've welcomed you into our family, and no that you're not there, we notice it and we miss you.  We wish you'd come back!
> 
> When asked, some have said that they quit because even after three months, they felt they were not learning _'martial arts'._  that is, they were still spending a lot of time on basics.  Stepping, standing, punching, kicking, and the beginnings of kata and the foreign vocabulary words we use in our training facility.  Some of it does not feel like it's very much geared towards self-defense or even the kind of fluid, graceful, martial arts moves one can see in movies or on the internet.  They might become discouraged or think that they are not progressing.  The fact is, you are progressing, you just don't see it in yourself yet.  You are adding speed and balance and power to your punches, even if you are punching air or a bag.  You are learning distancing and how to hit without hurting your hand, how to kick without hurting your toes.  You're improving; but you just don't see it in yourself yet.  The truth is, you'll probably never see it until you get to the point where you see yourself objectively, but you will get to the point where you see new students who are where you were, and you'll realize that you're not like that anymore.
> 
> The seasons are also changing after three months, in many places.  Fall turns into winter, the weather turns bad.  Students go back to school, schedules change for many of us.  It becomes harder to get to the training facility, harder to dedicate the time necessary.  People catch colds and flu and although they are understandably out for a short period, starting again afterwards can be an uphill slog.  The thing you should remember is that there is only one thing that separates many advanced students from beginning students; they kept attending training.  That's it.  No magic.  They're not more talented than you (ok, maybe some are, and you may be more naturally gifted than some of them), but they kept attending training.  If they seem much better than you are now, that's what time and practice does.  That may seem difficult to accept from the 'beginner' side of things, but it's true.
> 
> Boredom.  Yes, it's true.  Although we vary the routine in our training facility to try to keep things fresh, ultimately we are doing the same things over and over again.  And there is a certain amount of tedium in it if you do not have a long attention span.  But training the body is not exactly the same as training the mind; the body requires repetition to make certain movements natural and reflexive, to apply speed and power to them.  There will come a time when you will see an opening during sparring and you'll throw a punch or a kick and it will go right where you intended it to go, just as you intended it to land; but it will happen because you have thrown that punch of kick hundreds or thousands of times until it seems as natural as swatting a fly or reaching for a kitchen utensil.  It will be in your 'bag of tricks' and you can call upon it anytime you need it.  But until you do it over and over and over again, knowing the movement is not the same as applying the movement.  Yes, it's boring and repetitive and it gets old.  Part of your martial arts journey will be doing things that are not that much fun, without any apparent short-term benefit.
> 
> Afraid to come back after an absence.  Yes, we understand that there are good reasons why you have to stop training for a period of time.  Jobs, school, children, parents, seasons, sickness, injuries, finances, all kinds of reasons, many of them valid.  But we also want you to come back.  We like you by now.  We miss you.  Yes, some of your fellow new students will have advanced since you've been gone.  But that's not a big deal; this is not a race.  You will have lost some training too; you'll forget your kata or forms, your moves will be slow and rusty, you'll have to relearn some things.  But you'll also be surprised at how quickly you'll get it all back once you start training again.  It won't take as long as you think.  So don't think that it's a good idea to stop training permanently just because you had to stop training temporarily.  You don't even have to explain to us why you had to stop; we know how life is.  Just come back and start training again.
> 
> *black belt quitters:*
> 
> the saddest thing is to see a student quit training when they receive their sho-dan or first-degree black belt.  One instructor put it this way; _"it hurts to know that they see the benefits and choose not to train anyway."_ a student who earns their black belt has generally shown the kind of dedication needed to keep training, to keep learning, to keep trying, no matter the obstacles put in front of them.  You are actively helping others in the training facility; you are looked up to as leaders and newer students model themselves after you.  You are respected and liked; your absence will be sorely felt.
> 
> Why did you quit?  Perhaps you felt like taking a break.  After all, it was a long and difficult climb to that first black belt rank, and there was quite likely an even more difficult last-minute push to make sure you had everything in place to test and pass that milestone.  You were in that last sprint to the finish line and perhaps now it feels like the race is over, or at least that you're not ready to immediately start another race to the next belt.
> 
> Hopefully, you don't think you've learned all there is to learn.  Most black belt students are quite aware that those who have advanced black belts have a level of mastery above them as much as they themselves have over a beginner.  You may have learned all the kata or forms, all the exercises, all the weapons; but it would be wrong to say you've mastered them.  Just as a person with a bachelor's degree in biology understands the basics of human health, they are in no way a medical doctor.
> 
> Perhaps you feel that you've ticked a box off your bucket list.  If that's all all you wanted, it's perfectly valid; but it does mystify many of us who have turned the corner of perception from martial arts as a way of learning something (self-defense, good conditioning, etc) into seeing martial arts as a way of life, something to be pursued forever, perpetual students who always strive for a deeper level of understanding.  Everyone has their own reasons for training; and for quitting.   There is no 'right' or 'wrong' to it; but once a student reaches black belt range, many life-long students start to think that all black belts feel the same way about training that they do.  It's often a shock to find out that's not the case.
> 
> *the way of martial arts success:*
> 
> the secret, prospective student, is simple, even if it is difficult to implement.  Find a training facility you like, with a qualified instructor that you respect, that teaches what you want to learn.  Find a way to attend regularly, even through difficulty and sacrifice.  Then keep training.  Through boredom, through injuries, through changes in your life that make it difficult to train.  If you have to stop, start again as soon as you can.  Practice when you are not able to train in person.  Repeat this for the rest of your life.  That is the secret to martial arts success.



bravo!!


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## stone_dragone

kungfu penguin said:


> when i trained at a school the sifu said half will quit by blue belt  of the half remaining about 2/3 will quit by brown belt of the remaining about 20 % percent will quit right before or right after black belt    i started with about 22 students in my class  only 7 of us tested for black  within a year after black there were only 3 of us  then i moved away to college



My first school and martial home has been open for 24 years. For the first 15 years, conservatively one could say about 200 folks a year started classes, the next 9 years averaged about 75 or so a year starting (due to a new location).  Let's just round it down to about 3600 folks. Only 34 folks have made it to shodan. Rounded up, that's 1%. Only 4 of those made it past 3rd Dan, and only 2 made it to Godan (so far).


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## Monroe

I checked out a few schools before I picked one. I wanted to at least try a class before deciding on one. So I might have looked like a quitter because I showed up and did the trial. Only one school did I say I was definitely coming back and I did return after the trial. I've been going since October and I'm really enjoying classes at a place that offers Muay Thai, kickboxing and MMA. I haven't tried MMA there. I haven't seen a single woman show up to that class. I don't want to be the only woman that ever goes. It shouldn't bother me, but it does. 

I was uncomfortable with the formalities of the other schools and unfamiliar words for positions being called out that I wasn't even remotely remembering. 

I'd bet that the people who say they're going, over the phone but don't show, probably did plan on going. But as the time drew close, they chickened out. Friends who said they were going to come out with me have all chickened out so far. I don't think people are lying. Just failing to follow through.


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## Bill Mattocks

Monroe said:


> I'd bet that the people who say they're going, over the phone but don't show, probably did plan on going. But as the time drew close, they chickened out. Friends who said they were going to come out with me have all chickened out so far. I don't think people are lying. Just failing to follow through.



I agree with you.  And I don't mean it to sound judgmental, because I've started lots of things I've never completed, we probably all have; just different things.  If MA is not a person's thing, no harm no foul; walk away and go do something that person does find joy and fulfillment in!

On the other hand, I meets lots of people who tell me that they wanted to join the military; but they didn't.  They wanted to learn a martial art; but they didn't.  I know lots of people who wanted to do lots of things; but they didn't.  That's all cool, but in the end, with martial arts, there are those who did; and those who didn't.  No disrespect to those that didn't, but they didn't.  Kind of sad that they seem to have wanted to but something stopped them.  The key to success is not to quit.  That's the whole secret.


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## Monroe

I had problems with chickening out on things. I found the best thing to do was get a lot of information first. Think about it and decide. Once a decision is made, I don't think about it anymore. Because if I think about it after I've decided, I draw it out too long and then psyche myself out and don't do it. I prefer to fail fast. I don't know until I try. I come up with embarrassing results sometimes, but at least I know I tried.


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## ShotoKHAN

I personally find it hard to believe people would quit so soon, as in one day, 3 month, or even black belt increments. The way the martial arts are structured, there's always something new to learn. I always had a couple new kicks or new techniques that were waiting for me after receiving belt after belt, as if you feel that accomplishment after receiving the new belt, only to face a new challenge to overcome.

Maybe I'm just weird, but to me, that makes martial arts addicting.


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## Bill Mattocks

ShotoKHAN said:


> I personally find it hard to believe people would quit so soon, as in one day, 3 month, or even black belt increments. The way the martial arts are structured, there's always something new to learn. I always had a couple new kicks or new techniques that were waiting for me after receiving belt after belt, as if you feel that accomplishment after receiving the new belt, only to face a new challenge to overcome.
> 
> Maybe I'm just weird, but to me, that makes martial arts addicting.



If you are a member of a dojo for any length of time at all, you'll realize that no matter how hard it is to believe, it happens all the time.

It's been 3 1/2 years since I started training.  I'd say our dropout rate is somewhere in the neighborhood of 50% for the first 30 days.  Since I started,  I'm the only one left.  Two people have started right after me who are still around; the rest are gone.  Our class size never really increases; we only have the hard corps members left.  I wish it was different, but there you go.


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## Steve

Bill Mattocks said:


> If you are a member of a dojo for any length of time at all, you'll realize that no matter how hard it is to believe, it happens all the time.
> 
> It's been 3 1/2 years since I started training.  I'd say our dropout rate is somewhere in the neighborhood of 50% for the first 30 days.  Since I started,  I'm the only one left.  Two people have started right after me who are still around; the rest are gone.  Our class size never really increases; we only have the hard corps members left.  I wish it was different, but there you go.


I look at school pictures from 5 years ago and only an handful of guys are still left.


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## zDom

Good stuff. I know it's been up for awhile but I just now got around to reading it.

That pretty much sums it up for our dojang except we don't jump rope and we have an additional "quit time": after they buy a uniform.

For some reason, people will try a free class, order and receive a uniform, wear it to one class (huge, unshrunk) and then we will never see them again.


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## luckiest

Monroe said:


> I checked out a few schools before I picked one. I wanted to at least try a class before deciding on one. So I might have looked like a quitter because I showed up and did the trial. Only one school did I say I was definitely coming back and I did return after the trial.



Same here, I have stopped coming after trials if it wasn't the school for me, then again I usually am vague about whether I will return or not. The last one I tried I was very keen on and showed that but they didn't tell me the prices until after the trial, and then it was a no way. I even called up one recently to ask for some info, and said I'd intend to go for a trial but I haven't made it yet! I have a crazy busy life though.

I quit once when I was young and I was at a pretty good stage, I regret it all the time.


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## malteaser14

In answer to your question... NEVER!!! 

I started training at the end of 2005/06... But only for 3months. I didn't leave through choice, my husband had a job opportunity in a different part of the country, so we moved away for 6months. When we returned home we started a family, so 5yrs and 2 children later I start back! (Aug 2011) I'm completely hooked and will do anything possibly to train 3/4 times a week! I'm definitely a better person because of it too!!


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## Cirdan

That is a great post Bill. People come and go all the time, you give us a good picture of the whys.

I`ve been a pre quitter on two occations. The first time I was going to start in Shotokan, but decided to move because of a job offer in another part of the country (I instead took up Wado two years later). The second time I was looking for an art to cross train, I did not really like the Judo demonstration so I went looking elsewhere. 

I was a month quitter in Kenjutsu because I decided cross training it with Karate did not work well at my current level.

I have temporarily quit Ju Jitsu to focus on my Karate, it has been 18 months now I hope to return in another six.

My training in Wado Karate has been steady, the thing is to find what you like and keep going.


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## Gnarlie

I joined a club here in Germany only to leave after 3 weeks because they opened every lesson with 15 minutes of football as a warmup (soccer, for all you US folks).  I hate football, both to watch and to play, especially barefoot on wood.  If I wanted to play football I would join a football club.  I have since found places with more martial focus. 

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## bluewaveschool

Since I took over in the summer of 2010, I have exactly 1 student left from the 6 I started with.  Since then, we've had well over 100 start and quit.  Dad said he must have seen over a thousand start and quit in the 7 years he was head instructor.  Dad put this picture up on facebook and I stole it, our class around 2003.







[/IMG]

I am back row, black top with grey undershirt.  The only student in that picture that made black belt is the woman on the end in the brown belt.  Actually, in this picture are the majority of the black belts to come from our school since I made black belt in 1997.  The kid and the older man on the end of the back line, the brown belt, and her husband who is on the back line two people left of me in white.  Those four, and two others have reached black belt in the last 15 years.  A black belt is hard work, and it seems like no one wants to put in the work when it gets hard.  Maybe the current generation is just too damn lazy.  Maybe we make it too hard at the brown belt level.  Maybe people get mad when we tell them they aren't entitled to test when they think they are ready.


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## Carol

Maybe, but that picture is predominantly children, and I don't have an issue with kids not making black belt.  Its OK if not earning a black belt is not a kid thing, IMO.


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## bluewaveschool

Usually the adults we get are parents taking it with kids, or people taking it for credit at the community college, and we know they aren't sticking around.  Comes with the territory of being a YMCA program that's only open to members.  We don't have the time slot for an adult only class, and some adults won't train with kids that aren't their own.  I currently have 4 mothers taking the class with their kids, and one father.  Other adults?  Just doesn't happen for us often.


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## celestial_dragon

I think the main reason adults quit is because of the children in the class. Don't get me wrong, kids should train also, but not with adults in the class. Children have a quick mind span, and get bored easily, then they distract the adults. I personally only train in adult classes.


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## Aiki Lee

I agree with celestial_dragon. I think I'm seeing this now in my dojo as we are made up mostly of kids at this point. Then again, it seems the kids here have more determination than some of the adults at times.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Himura Kenshin said:


> Then again, it seems the kids here have more determination than some of the adults at times.


That's odd, when I was a little kid, my dad would have me and my brotherwatch the adult classes and see how determined they were, and how much they tried whenever we complained that it was to hard.


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## WC_lun

This is a great read Bill and I think perspective students should read it.  

The flip side of the coin is that in what we do, most people will come and go.  That's just how it is.  We can design programs to keep people's interest, but there really is no way to keep people from quiting.  That drives some teachers nuts.  I view it a bit different.  Those that quit do so for thier own reasons, some good, some bad, but in the end it is thier decision.  Hopefully, for however long they have been in the school, we've helped them in some manner.  I wish them luck in whatever the future holds for them.  Now our attention is focused on those that have stayed and percivered.  Those are the people that will learn the most and hopefully be the future of the art.


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## DavidMoreland

The amount of individuals who begin training in BJJ vs the amount who receive their blue belt is startling.  Really strikes home once I see an old group photograph, from course or from a seminar and look in the faces. He is gone, he is gone, she is gone... who's THAT guy?

Excellent post.  Well done, if it was written by you.


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## Rumy73

Great post. However, you failed to mention some serious turn offs. Fees. Fees. Fees. Then there are dealing with other people's agendas and their lack of commitment to safety.  What else? Second stringer instructors who really do not know the material well. And lastly, trying to apply a curriculum for kids on adults. I stopped paying for MA schools after my black belts, but I did not quit training.


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## DavidMoreland

Rumy73 said:


> Great post. However, you failed to mention some serious turn offs. Fees. Fees. Fees. Then there are dealing with other people's agendas and their lack of commitment to safety.  What else? Second stringer instructors who really do not know the material well. And lastly, trying to apply a curriculum for kids on adults. I stopped paying for MA schools after my black belts, but I did not quit training.


Yes, I like your recommendation for applying curriculum for kids to make them healthy and confident.As you mentioned you did not quit training that's a very good thing shows your dedication towards your health.


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## Nighthawk

The black belt quitter section hit me particularly. We had one do that at our school. Pissed me off. I have ZERO intention of being that guy. There are too many students whom I have helped, become quite proud of... And you can tell the ones who are going to quit! That's what really saddens me. We have one in class who I think may have gone as far as he's going to... I'm doing everything I can think of to inspire him. And then there's Rain... She's just starting to get good, and she LOVES it! She's the kind of student who will keep me from being a black belt quitter. I learn something new from her almost every class, be it through her enthusiasm or something new that she's figured out and wants to show me. Gotta love it!


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## 3ii

Well, I'm going through my second week as a beginner in kickboxing and I'm thinking of quitting, in spite of having bought the equipment already. 
I used to do Taekwondo (5 years ago) and I loved it, but I was forced to stop because of health reasons. Now I decided it was the right time to return to the field so I chose kickboxing to wipe the dust off my bones. The first lessons went well and truth be told, I had lots of fun. Then, tomorrow, my trainer deemed I was ready to go on a mini fight with another student. What I got was that I was supposed to hit him but unfortunately I couldn't bring myself to do it. He was playing slowly, yet I could hardly dodge or counter-attack back. Ashamed and disappointed, I left minutes later.
I thought that the two sports were not too different from each other..., but punching a person in kickboxing has nothing to do with Taekwondo-style fights I have experience in. I'd say that it was a waste I even tried to get back to it. Some things can't be re-acquired.


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## Gnarlie

3ii said:


> Well, I'm going through my second week as a beginner in kickboxing and I'm thinking of quitting, in spite of having bought the equipment already.
> I used to do Taekwondo (5 years ago) and I loved it, but I was forced to stop because of health reasons. Now I decided it was the right time to return to the field so I chose kickboxing to wipe the dust off my bones. The first lessons went well and truth be told, I had lots of fun. Then, tomorrow, my trainer deemed I was ready to go on a mini fight with another student. What I got was that I was supposed to hit him but unfortunately I couldn't bring myself to do it. He was playing slowly, yet I could hardly dodge or counter-attack back. Ashamed and disappointed, I left minutes later.
> I thought that the two sports were not too different from each other..., but punching a person in kickboxing has nothing to do with Taekwondo-style fights I have experience in. I'd say that it was a waste I even tried to get back to it. Some things can't be re-acquired.



Well that's a defeatist way of looking at it.


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## Tez3

3ii said:


> Well, I'm going through my second week as a beginner in kickboxing and I'm thinking of quitting, in spite of having bought the equipment already.
> I used to do Taekwondo (5 years ago) and I loved it, but I was forced to stop because of health reasons. Now I decided it was the right time to return to the field so I chose kickboxing to wipe the dust off my bones. The first lessons went well and truth be told, I had lots of fun. Then, tomorrow, my trainer deemed I was ready to go on a mini fight with another student. What I got was that I was supposed to hit him but unfortunately I couldn't bring myself to do it. He was playing slowly, yet I could hardly dodge or counter-attack back. Ashamed and disappointed, I left minutes later.
> I thought that the two sports were not too different from each other..., but punching a person in kickboxing has nothing to do with Taekwondo-style fights I have experience in. I'd say that it was a waste I even tried to get back to it. Some things can't be re-acquired.




Your first line explains it...you are a beginner and in your second week of training. disregard you had training in another style years ago, you are a beginner and your instructor had you sparring for a bit of experience which you have gained, shame and disappointment have no place here. You have learnt what you need to work on and probably that kick boxing is harder than you thought it was, I'm betting you thought it was going to be easy. You aren't re-acquiring anything you are learning a new martial arts, stop being such a big girl's blouse and get back in and learn, you will be really sorry later if you give up so easily.


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## Tony Dismukes

Bill Mattocks said:


> Our Sensei also mentions that he runs into former students all the time who stop him when they see him out on the street, greet him warmly, and inform him that a) they are still working on their kata at home and b) they'll be back in the dojo next week. _"Next week"_ must be code for _"I am never coming back again."_ Because they never do.
> 
> But occasionally, we do have students return after being gone for months, years, and in a couple cases, decades. They come back, and some of them stay and keep training. Hey, *life happens*. Doesn't matter what happened to keep you from training, the point is you can train now, so welcome back and get busy!



Even for those who quit, it's never too late to come back. One of my white belt students originally started training 10 years ago, dropped out, and then started back up again just this year. He's making good progress.



3ii said:


> Well, I'm going through my second week as a beginner in kickboxing and I'm thinking of quitting, in spite of having bought the equipment already.
> I used to do Taekwondo (5 years ago) and I loved it, but I was forced to stop because of health reasons. Now I decided it was the right time to return to the field so I chose kickboxing to wipe the dust off my bones. The first lessons went well and truth be told, I had lots of fun. Then, tomorrow, my trainer deemed I was ready to go on a mini fight with another student. What I got was that I was supposed to hit him but unfortunately I couldn't bring myself to do it. He was playing slowly, yet I could hardly dodge or counter-attack back. Ashamed and disappointed, I left minutes later.
> I thought that the two sports were not too different from each other..., but punching a person in kickboxing has nothing to do with Taekwondo-style fights I have experience in. I'd say that it was a waste I even tried to get back to it. Some things can't be re-acquired.



1) It's not a matter of "re-acquiring" anything. It's a new art and you're a total beginner in it.

2) It sounds like you either didn't have the confidence yet for sparring or you're one of those people who hasn't learned to feel comfortable actually hitting another person. Both those things can be learned. It's just a matter of continuing to train and gradually pushing your comfort levels.

3) There's not reason to be disappointed or ashamed or to quit.  Martial arts helps you grow by taking you to the edge where you discover your limitations, then teaching you how to push past those limitations. You just discovered a major limitation, which means you've encountered a major opportunity for growth.


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## Langenschwert

3ii said:


> Well, I'm going through my second week as a beginner in kickboxing and I'm thinking of quitting, in spite of having bought the equipment already.
> I used to do Taekwondo (5 years ago) and I loved it, but I was forced to stop because of health reasons. Now I decided it was the right time to return to the field so I chose kickboxing to wipe the dust off my bones. The first lessons went well and truth be told, I had lots of fun. Then, tomorrow, my trainer deemed I was ready to go on a mini fight with another student. What I got was that I was supposed to hit him but unfortunately I couldn't bring myself to do it. He was playing slowly, yet I could hardly dodge or counter-attack back. Ashamed and disappointed, I left minutes later.
> I thought that the two sports were not too different from each other..., but punching a person in kickboxing has nothing to do with Taekwondo-style fights I have experience in. I'd say that it was a waste I even tried to get back to it. Some things can't be re-acquired.



Sparring skills are highly perishable. If you've ever learned a foreign language and then promptly forgotten it, it's just like that.

In my Judo dojo, some of the kids had a tournament, and the sensei said something like "it's OK if you didn't get a medal, since you've already beaten everyone who didn't have the courage to compete". It's like that when you train. Every time you train, you're beating everyone who didn't have the will to show up.

Like a day job, a lot of training is just showing up and doing the work. The more you put into the work, the more you get out of your training. This experience was a gift, showing you exactly how you need to improve. Don't throw that gift away. You can learn more from a lost match than a whole month of training. Every time you train, you win. Every time you lose, you learn, which is a big win. You more often learn the least from "winning" a match.


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## Buka

I haven't actually set foot on a dojo floor since June, but what's odd to me is I haven't missed it. I'm going to Physical Therapy for some health issues, and I was away for many weeks, but I didn't even miss it then. It's gotten to the point where I enjoy talking about Martial Arts more than actually training. (somebody shoot me!)

I haven't sparred for I don't know how long, threw away my mouthpiece, I don't roll anymore, I don't even want to. It feels kinda good to wake up every day with no sore ribs, no mat burns, no sore muscles, fingers, ears or shins. I'm tired of carrying home a wet gi and hanging it on something to dry because I haven't washed the other one yet. I never want to put on wet gloves again. And I really like the bottom of my feet not being dirty.

I should be troubled about this. But I'm not.    Oh, God, I've become a keyboard warrior!


----------



## tubby

3ii said:


> I'd say that it was a waste I even tried to get back to it. Some things can't be re-acquired.


I think you underestimate what it takes to get back to your old level, but are comparing against the standard you used to train at. How fit were you before this latest training? Sparring relies a lot on cardio fitness and that is something that you lose very rapidly.
I'm just getting back in the gym and at first it was hard to deal with struggling to lift 1/4 of what I used to do, though I am now making rapid progress again.  Starting tkd many years after my last training I had to begin again, but after a short time the old experience helped with many things.
Give it some more time and I think you'll see some results.


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## Dinkydoo

3ii said:


> What I got was that I was supposed to hit him but unfortunately I couldn't bring myself to do it. He was playing slowly, yet I could hardly dodge or counter-attack back. Ashamed and disappointed, I left minutes later.
> I thought that the two sports were not too different from each other..., but punching a person in kickboxing has nothing to do with Taekwondo-style fights I have experience in. I'd say that it was a waste I even tried to get back to it. Some things can't be re-acquired.



Sounds like your previous TKD training hadn't prepared you for kickboxing sparring, which is fine, because they are two different styles. What I found when I switched from training places with minimal contact to a kickboxing club, was that although I had "lovely technique" according to some, I was lacking the basics of timing and the intent to actually make contact with my strikes. Several months followed of me getting frustrated due to the realisation that my skills weren't at the level I thought they were. As you've found out, this dose of reality can be tough to take. 

You have two choices:

1) Continue training and lower your expectations for now, at least until you're not feeling as rusty. (Do this)

2) Quit and never improve. In fact, you'll probably get worse over time. (Don't do this)

Learning how to take a punch without turning the head or flinching takes time....so does learning how to hit your opponent without throwing your strikes half-assed, with the goal being to extend your technique through the full range of motion (hopefully with the other guy somewhere between the start and end), without overly trying to really hurt your training partner. There can be a bit of snobbery present when a TMAist for the first time tries out one of the rough and tumble 'sport styles' - I hate to admit it, but at some level I personally felt what i'd trained before was more sophisticated than the kickboxing I was trying out. 

At times it doesn't look as impressive as complex hand trapping or hurricane kicks, but in many subtle ways it is. Especially if the sparring element has been a different type of game (such as points based or one-step) from where you've came from before.


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## Bill Mattocks

Never stop.  I stopped talking about martial arts, but I still train and help teach in the dojo.  Ate a lot of mat last night.  Kind of humbling to be dusted so easily by a fellow Nidan.  Today my wrist hurts from bad fist formation.  I took some Ibuprofen and life goes on.  Keep at it.  Never stop.


----------



## GiYu - Todd

I've had several students say that after missing training for awhile, they were afraid we'd be mad they disappeared, and opted to stay away.  But when they do come back, we just say "Good to see you... get changed and we'll see you on the mats."   I don't think most people focus on why the person was abscent.  Just happy to have them back.


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## MatthewJB19904

SPOT ON !!!


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## tshadowchaser

First I want to thank Bill Mattocks for this thread and the wonderful opening post.

I have often wondered why students who reach the Black Belt level stop practicing.  One of my old instructors had a good number of students over the years achieve this rank but as I look around today I only see 4 of his students who still practice or teach.  To me this is a shame and one reason some systems die off.
I also am familiar with those that stop at some point in their training and then say they will come back or their thinking of coming in soon. YEA RIGHT, like that is ever going to happen .  I do have one student who quite for 10 years to get married and start a family who has come back, I wonder how long he will stay.

I can understand the student who starts then after a few months say it is not what he was looking for so I will ask them what is missing in the training or what they think they want to study and if I know of a school that meets their wishes I'll suggest it and wish them well.  I often wonder how many actually
try a different school.

Out of those that do reach black belt and stop I wonder how many go to a different system for what ever reason.

Going back and reading this thread has been interesting and enjoyable


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## banshee Ian Williams

Quitters never quit


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## GiYu - Todd

tshadowchaser said:


> I also am familiar with those that stop at some point in their training and then say they will come back or their thinking of coming in soon. YEA RIGHT, like that is ever going to happen .  I do have one student who quite for 10 years to get married and start a family who has come back, I wonder how long he will stay.


 
About a year ago, we suddenly had two former students within 3 months return.  Both had reached 3rd degree and then quit training due to family and work about 7-8 years previous.  Their current schedules don't allow them to come to every class, but they come often enough to be "regulars" again. 

It may pay off to reach out to some of your old students occasionally.  Perhaps just knowing you've thought of them may encourage them to come back.


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## Bill Mattocks

banshee Ian Williams said:


> Quitters never quit


Well, that's ... interesting.


----------



## banshee Ian Williams

Think it through, and finish the sentence. Quitters never quit, add the word, quitting. Meaning, once you start quitting you'll never stop

Confidential confusion breeds the corruption of communication. Meaning, keeping the meaning or 'interpretation' to yourself ruins the meaning that you are trying to get across.


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## Bill Mattocks

banshee Ian Williams said:


> Think it through, and finish the sentence. Quitters never quit, add the word, quitting. Meaning, once you start quitting you'll never stop
> 
> Confidential confusion breeds the corruption of communication. Meaning, keeping the meaning or 'interpretation' to yourself ruins the meaning that you are trying to get across.



I think I understand, but I do not speak in rhyming couplets.  Mostly just English and Bad English.


----------



## banshee Ian Williams

Simple talk is the invisible frock.

Meaning, everyone understands the points you try to say, whether they are simple or easily confused,  but there is a deeper meaning to all words and conversation. 

I have to get ready for my Tae-kwon-do class, I'll be back later.


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## Bill Mattocks

I am happy to say that I am still training.  From white belt to 2nd degree black belt, it's been a heck of a journey.

That's me, before I even owned a gi.




 

Here I am now.



 

Keep training.  It's the only secret there is.


----------



## Rmada

No offense Bill, but you kinda look like a 15yr old girl with a pony tail in the first pic.

All kidding aside, thanks for sharing your journey!


----------



## Kenneth

I was young when I quit taekwondo after attaining my green belt. Now I am much older and facing serious health issues. I want to turn things around. 
I think that intimidation was a part of my reason for leaving. A little bullying. Sparring sessions being taken too seriously. I have always regretted not approaching my instructor about how I felt instead of just not going anymore.


----------



## yak sao

Rmada said:


> No offense Bill, but you kinda look like a 15yr old girl with a pony tail in the first pic.



See, karate makes a man out of you.


----------



## yak sao

It's not too late to start again, While TKD may be a bit much for you depending on your circumstances, there is something out there waiting for you that will be a perfect fit.
I'm sorry that you are having health issues, and I'm sorry if this sounds
a bit clich'e, but getting yourself back into a good MA will do wonders for your body, mind and spirit.


----------



## Kenneth

yak sao said:


> It's not too late to start again, While TKD may be a bit much for you depending on your circumstances, there is something out there waiting for you that will be a perfect fit.
> I'm sorry that you are having health issues, and I'm sorry if this sounds
> a bit clich'e, but getting yourself back into a good MA will do wonders for your body, mind and spirit.


Thank you very much! I am considering aikido and taichi to start with. Taekwondo will always have a place in my heart though.


----------



## StudentOfMartialArts

Bill Mattocks said:


> *Dear Prospective New Student:*
> 
> First, welcome to our training facility.  We are glad you decided to start your martial arts training journey and we're glad you chose us.  We'd like to share a few things with you to get started, and we'd like to issue a couple of warnings, just so you know what to expect.
> 
> *
> PRE-QUITTERS:*
> 
> We'll never get to know you, unfortunately.  You've called or come by the training facility, picked up some literature, asked some questions.  Maybe you even stayed and watched some training.  You told yourself that this is something you think you'd like to do.  But for whatever reason, you don't come back.  You may be surprised, but every training facility has people who call multiple times to ask about training, and to state that they will definitely be in the next week to start training.  Some call every year in January; must be a New Year's Resolution or something.  Whatever; you won't sign up, you won't train.  You've quit before you've begun.
> 
> Some of you will ask around online about training.  Where the local facilities are, if this or that art or trainer is well-respected, and so on.  You'll describe your desire to start training, maybe give some background about yourself.  Perhaps you've been in the military and gotten some martial arts training there.  Perhaps you are a little older and trained in some martial arts style as a child and now you'd like to get back into it.  Perhaps you think it would be a good way to lose some weight, to stay fit, to learn self-defense.  You're very inquisitive, and seem enthusiastic, but you won't actually sign up and start training, for whatever reason.
> 
> Some of you will ask about video and book-based training.  You may or may not be pleased with the reply, because although there are some who think martial arts can be learned from a book or from a video, many trained martial artists do not, and they'll give you their unvarnished opinion.  We realize that this will probably lead to some angry words and a rapid departure.  Not only won't you join a martial arts training center, you also won't practice your asked-about book or video learning either.  We won't see you again online, although the discussion threads you've begun will probably continue for some time after you've gone.
> 
> Some of you will describe all the ways that it is impossible for you to train in person.  You live many miles from the nearest training facility.  You do not have a job, and therefore no money.  You do not have a vehicle or access to transportation.  You work or go to school when the training facility offers classes.  There are many reasons why local in-person training is not possible for you.  We can offer only this; finding a way to attend training is the first part of your martial arts journey.  If you cannot do this (and your reasons may be quite real, we're not calling you a liar), you would not keep training anyway; because it only gets harder from there.  If you really want to do it, you will find a way to make it happen, even if it means doing things that are quite uncomfortable or difficult, or making long-range plans that include waiting until you can change your circumstances.  Some will recommend that you wait until you can change your circumstances, but that in the meantime, you consider doing calisthenics, working out, doing weight training, becoming flexible, or taking other classes that can help you later; like ballroom dancing, or jazzercise or yoga or other forms of physical activity that require you to develop balance, rhythm,  and increase your endurance and basic fitness level.  You may reject these; after all, they are not what you want to do.  We agree, but we know from the benefit of having trained for awhile in martial arts that these things can and will benefit you; dancers are often quite good martial artists, people who are flexible from yoga find it easy to perform higher kicks, and so on.  Again, if you are unwilling to consider this type of training while you wait until your circumstances change so that you can get started with martial arts training, you are probably not that serious about martial arts training.
> 
> And let us just say that being a quitter is not a bad thing.  It's not meant to hurt or insult you.  People choose to do or not do things for all kinds of reasons, and just not wanting to do it is a perfectly valid reason.  There is no shame, and no harm, in deciding you don't want to do something; or in deciding after trying it that is just not for you.  Have no fear; walk away and do something you DO like to do.  We're all different, and we all want different things out of life.  No harm, no foul.  You're still a good person; you just don't want to be a martial artist.  Totally OK.
> 
> *DAY ONE QUITTERS:*
> 
> About half of our prospective new students quit after the first day.  Reasons vary, and we don't even know all of them, but our theory is that for many, the reality of our martial arts training does not meet up with their expectations.
> 
> For example, we spend at least 30 minutes of our 2-hour training session doing calisthenics and stretching exercises.  We understand if you are not in good physical condition or if you have physical limitations that prevent you from doing everything we do; but do ask you to do what you can.  We do pushups, we do jumping jacks, we do crunchers and situps and we skip rope.  If you are able to keep pace, you will be breathing hard and sweating by the time we're ready to start any kind of actual training.  We do this because it is important to prepare the body and the mind for the activity that is to come.  We have found that some new students did not expect to have to do hard physical exercise, and that's not what they want to do.
> 
> We also start our newest students off with extreme basics, such as how to make a fist, how to stand, how to step forward and back, how to punch.  This may seem a far cry from smashing bricks or doing 'real' self-defense, but in grade school, you practiced writing your alphabet before you started writing words, and this is no different.  We have found that some new students do not like the idea of beginning at the very beginning.
> 
> It has also been noted that invariably, new students ask us _"How long until I get my black belt?"_  This is a very common and legitimate question, we'd be surprised if you did not ask it; but the answer may not be what you want to hear.  In our training facility, the answer is that it varies, depending upon the student.  At the minimum, it will take several years, and the average for us is probably somewhere in the five year range.  That's a long time, and we understand that may be disappointing for some.  We cannot say that it is not legitimate for a person to have _'earning a black belt'_ as a goal for their training, but in our training facility, we keep two things uppermost in mind.  First, for us, we're more interested in the training we receive than the belt we wear around our waists and second, sho-dan (first degree black belt) is only the beginning of a lifetime's commitment to martial arts training.  We do understand if that is not what you are interested in, but it is what we do here.
> 
> *3 MONTH QUITTERS:*
> 
> We're always happy when a new student returns, especially after the first day!  Unfortunately, we have also noticed that a lot of students stop coming around the the three-month mark.  Again, we're not certain, but there may be a number of reasons for this. We have noted that some students seem to quit after they have received their first or second belt promotions.  This is disappointing to us, because we've invested a lot in you as a student by now, we've gotten to know and like you as a person, and you've put in a lot of hard work.  We've welcomed you into our family, and no that you're not there, we notice it and we miss you.  We wish you'd come back!
> 
> When asked, some have said that they quit because even after three months, they felt they were not learning _'martial arts'._  That is, they were still spending a lot of time on basics.  Stepping, standing, punching, kicking, and the beginnings of kata and the foreign vocabulary words we use in our training facility.  Some of it does not feel like it's very much geared towards self-defense or even the kind of fluid, graceful, martial arts moves one can see in movies or on the Internet.  They might become discouraged or think that they are not progressing.  The fact is, you are progressing, you just don't see it in yourself yet.  You are adding speed and balance and power to your punches, even if you are punching air or a bag.  You are learning distancing and how to hit without hurting your hand, how to kick without hurting your toes.  You're improving; but you just don't see it in yourself yet.  The truth is, you'll probably never see it until you get to the point where you see yourself objectively, but you will get to the point where you see new students who are where you were, and you'll realize that you're not like that anymore.
> 
> The seasons are also changing after three months, in many places.  Fall turns into winter, the weather turns bad.  Students go back to school, schedules change for many of us.  It becomes harder to get to the training facility, harder to dedicate the time necessary.  People catch colds and flu and although they are understandably out for a short period, starting again afterwards can be an uphill slog.  The thing you should remember is that there is only one thing that separates many advanced students from beginning students; they kept attending training.  That's it.  No magic.  They're not more talented than you (OK, maybe some are, and you may be more naturally gifted than some of them), but they kept attending training.  If they seem much better than you are now, that's what time and practice does.  That may seem difficult to accept from the 'beginner' side of things, but it's true.
> 
> Boredom.  Yes, it's true.  Although we vary the routine in our training facility to try to keep things fresh, ultimately we are doing the same things over and over again.  And there is a certain amount of tedium in it if you do not have a long attention span.  But training the body is not exactly the same as training the mind; the body requires repetition to make certain movements natural and reflexive, to apply speed and power to them.  There will come a time when you will see an opening during sparring and you'll throw a punch or a kick and it will go right where you intended it to go, just as you intended it to land; but it will happen because you have thrown that punch of kick hundreds or thousands of times until it seems as natural as swatting a fly or reaching for a kitchen utensil.  It will be in your 'bag of tricks' and you can call upon it anytime you need it.  But until you do it over and over and over again, knowing the movement is not the same as applying the movement.  Yes, it's boring and repetitive and it gets old.  Part of your martial arts journey will be doing things that are not that much fun, without any apparent short-term benefit.
> 
> Afraid to come back after an absence.  Yes, we understand that there are good reasons why you have to stop training for a period of time.  Jobs, school, children, parents, seasons, sickness, injuries, finances, all kinds of reasons, many of them valid.  But we also want you to come back.  We like you by now.  We miss you.  Yes, some of your fellow new students will have advanced since you've been gone.  But that's not a big deal; this is not a race.  You will have lost some training too; you'll forget your kata or forms, your moves will be slow and rusty, you'll have to relearn some things.  But you'll also be surprised at how quickly you'll get it all back once you start training again.  It won't take as long as you think.  So don't think that it's a good idea to stop training permanently just because you had to stop training temporarily.  You don't even have to explain to us why you had to stop; we know how life is.  Just come back and start training again.
> 
> *BLACK BELT QUITTERS:*
> 
> The saddest thing is to see a student quit training when they receive their sho-dan or first-degree black belt.  One instructor put it this way; _"It hurts to know that they see the benefits and choose not to train anyway."_ A student who earns their black belt has generally shown the kind of dedication needed to keep training, to keep learning, to keep trying, no matter the obstacles put in front of them.  You are actively helping others in the training facility; you are looked up to as leaders and newer students model themselves after you.  You are respected and liked; your absence will be sorely felt.
> 
> Why did you quit?  Perhaps you felt like taking a break.  After all, it was a long and difficult climb to that first black belt rank, and there was quite likely an even more difficult last-minute push to make sure you had everything in place to test and pass that milestone.  You were in that last sprint to the finish line and perhaps now it feels like the race is over, or at least that you're not ready to immediately start another race to the next belt.
> 
> Hopefully, you don't think you've learned all there is to learn.  Most black belt students are quite aware that those who have advanced black belts have a level of mastery above them as much as they themselves have over a beginner.  You may have learned all the kata or forms, all the exercises, all the weapons; but it would be wrong to say you've mastered them.  Just as a person with a Bachelor's degree in biology understands the basics of human health, they are in no way a medical doctor.
> 
> Perhaps you feel that you've ticked a box off your bucket list.  If that's all all you wanted, it's perfectly valid; but it does mystify many of us who have turned the corner of perception from martial arts as a way of learning something (self-defense, good conditioning, etc) into seeing martial arts as a way of life, something to be pursued forever, perpetual students who always strive for a deeper level of understanding.  Everyone has their own reasons for training; and for quitting.   There is no 'right' or 'wrong' to it; but once a student reaches black belt range, many life-long students start to think that all black belts feel the same way about training that they do.  It's often a shock to find out that's not the case.
> 
> *THE WAY OF MARTIAL ARTS SUCCESS:*
> 
> The secret, prospective student, is simple, even if it is difficult to implement.  Find a training facility you like, with a qualified instructor that you respect, that teaches what you want to learn.  Find a way to attend regularly, even through difficulty and sacrifice.  Then keep training.  Through boredom, through injuries, through changes in your life that make it difficult to train.  If you have to stop, start again as soon as you can.  Practice when you are not able to train in person.  Repeat this for the rest of your life.  That is the secret to martial arts success.


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## McBryde Mats

This was a great read, thanks for posting it... I think the black belt that quits really didnt deserve it in the first place, but then again, every circumstance is different for the individual, what about a practitioner that quit from a bad injury?... just throwing it out there, but great read, thanks


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## Tony Dismukes

McBryde Mats said:


> This was a great read, thanks for posting it... I think the black belt that quits really didnt deserve it in the first place, but then again, every circumstance is different for the individual, what about a practitioner that quit from a bad injury?... just throwing it out there, but great read, thanks


The vast majority of martial artists, even reasonably accomplished ones (including black belts), _will_ quit training at some point in their lives.  Only a few of us are "lifers". Even for those of us who fit in to that category, you can't know for sure until we reach the end of our lives. I've been training for 35 years and plan to continue indefinitely, but maybe I'll feel differently when I'm 75.

If someone puts in the time and effort to meet the requirements for a black belt in their system, then they've earned it - even if they _don't_ continue on training to the grave.


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## Bill Mattocks

McBryde Mats said:


> ...what about a practitioner that quit from a bad injury?... just throwing it out there, but great read, thanks



Heal up and get back at it.  In whatever capacity their injury permits.  We have many inspirational stories of blind, amputee, and others who train.  I personally know of a young man with Down Syndrome who recently earned his black belt after MANY years of dedicated training.  If he can do it...and dedicate himself to it...


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Tony Dismukes said:


> The vast majority of martial artists, even reasonably accomplished ones (including black belts), _will_ quit training at some point in their lives.  Only a few of us are "lifers". Even for those of us who fit in to that category, you can't know for sure until we reach the end of our lives. I've been training for 35 years and plan to continue indefinitely, but maybe I'll feel differently when I'm 75.
> 
> If someone puts in the time and effort to meet the requirements for a black belt in their system, then they've earned it - even if they _don't_ continue on training to the grave.



Well, I have been breathing all my life.  I'm kind of tired of it.  Think I've earned the right to call myself a breather, whether I keep breathing or not.  Think I'll quit doing it.



Martial Arts training is life.  Just keep training.  There is no real alternative.


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## KenpoMaster805

I think some student quit the 1st day because they cant handle the excercise basic or the technique is hard for them or they dont like the karate studio

the black belt quit because they receive their black belt and they think their done but its just a beginning


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## MaMaD

Great reading.
The fact that we can prevent of quit by remembering this reasons makes this reading great.


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## Tony B

I'm going to offer a different perspective. I joined a Dojo to learn Krav and Jeet Kune Do a few years back. I did pretty well, it was tough but I stuck with it for four plus years. I never asked when I would be getting my Black Belt because I saw it as a journey, not a destination. One Saturday I go to the dojo, get out on the mat and begin my stretches, I'm the only one there so far, and this black belt comes in with his girlfriend who is a student, and they start rolling around the floor tickling each other and laughing and kissing. Now it's only me and them in the dojo, and the Sifu walk through and doesn't say anything to them. I packed my bag and never went back. It doesn't bother me that I didn't go back, what bothers me it that I just stopped, didn't join another Dojo, and just called it a day.


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## MaMaD

Tony B said:


> I'm going to offer a different perspective. I joined a Dojo to learn Krav and Jeet Kune Do a few years back. I did pretty well, it was tough but I stuck with it for four plus years. I never asked when I would be getting my Black Belt because I saw it as a journey, not a destination. One Saturday I go to the dojo, get out on the mat and begin my stretches, I'm the only one there so far, and this black belt comes in with his girlfriend who is a student, and they start rolling around the floor tickling each other and laughing and kissing. Now it's only me and them in the dojo, and the Sifu walk through and doesn't say anything to them. I packed my bag and never went back. It doesn't bother me that I didn't go back, what bothers me it that I just stopped, didn't join another Dojo, and just called it a day.



you could be a different black belt which students can learn respect to MA by just looking at your behavior.
but of course in a different gym and another shifu.

you still can do this.


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## Tony B

MaMaD said:


> you could be a different black belt which students can learn respect to MA by just looking at your behavior.
> but of course in a different gym and another shifu.
> 
> you still can do this.



That's why I'm visiting the site, I enjoyed the kickboxing and Wing Chun aspects of Krav and Jeet, so I'm considering either art as a change. I've been away for about 2 years.


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## senseiblackbelt

Bill Mattocks said:


> *Dear Prospective New Student:*
> 
> First, welcome to our training facility.  We are glad you decided to start your martial arts training journey and we're glad you chose us.  We'd like to share a few things with you to get started, and we'd like to issue a couple of warnings, just so you know what to expect.
> 
> *
> PRE-QUITTERS:*
> 
> We'll never get to know you, unfortunately.  You've called or come by the training facility, picked up some literature, asked some questions.  Maybe you even stayed and watched some training.  You told yourself that this is something you think you'd like to do.  But for whatever reason, you don't come back.  You may be surprised, but every training facility has people who call multiple times to ask about training, and to state that they will definitely be in the next week to start training.  Some call every year in January; must be a New Year's Resolution or something.  Whatever; you won't sign up, you won't train.  You've quit before you've begun.
> 
> Some of you will ask around online about training.  Where the local facilities are, if this or that art or trainer is well-respected, and so on.  You'll describe your desire to start training, maybe give some background about yourself.  Perhaps you've been in the military and gotten some martial arts training there.  Perhaps you are a little older and trained in some martial arts style as a child and now you'd like to get back into it.  Perhaps you think it would be a good way to lose some weight, to stay fit, to learn self-defense.  You're very inquisitive, and seem enthusiastic, but you won't actually sign up and start training, for whatever reason.
> 
> Some of you will ask about video and book-based training.  You may or may not be pleased with the reply, because although there are some who think martial arts can be learned from a book or from a video, many trained martial artists do not, and they'll give you their unvarnished opinion.  We realize that this will probably lead to some angry words and a rapid departure.  Not only won't you join a martial arts training center, you also won't practice your asked-about book or video learning either.  We won't see you again online, although the discussion threads you've begun will probably continue for some time after you've gone.
> 
> Some of you will describe all the ways that it is impossible for you to train in person.  You live many miles from the nearest training facility.  You do not have a job, and therefore no money.  You do not have a vehicle or access to transportation.  You work or go to school when the training facility offers classes.  There are many reasons why local in-person training is not possible for you.  We can offer only this; finding a way to attend training is the first part of your martial arts journey.  If you cannot do this (and your reasons may be quite real, we're not calling you a liar), you would not keep training anyway; because it only gets harder from there.  If you really want to do it, you will find a way to make it happen, even if it means doing things that are quite uncomfortable or difficult, or making long-range plans that include waiting until you can change your circumstances.  Some will recommend that you wait until you can change your circumstances, but that in the meantime, you consider doing calisthenics, working out, doing weight training, becoming flexible, or taking other classes that can help you later; like ballroom dancing, or jazzercise or yoga or other forms of physical activity that require you to develop balance, rhythm,  and increase your endurance and basic fitness level.  You may reject these; after all, they are not what you want to do.  We agree, but we know from the benefit of having trained for awhile in martial arts that these things can and will benefit you; dancers are often quite good martial artists, people who are flexible from yoga find it easy to perform higher kicks, and so on.  Again, if you are unwilling to consider this type of training while you wait until your circumstances change so that you can get started with martial arts training, you are probably not that serious about martial arts training.
> 
> And let us just say that being a quitter is not a bad thing.  It's not meant to hurt or insult you.  People choose to do or not do things for all kinds of reasons, and just not wanting to do it is a perfectly valid reason.  There is no shame, and no harm, in deciding you don't want to do something; or in deciding after trying it that is just not for you.  Have no fear; walk away and do something you DO like to do.  We're all different, and we all want different things out of life.  No harm, no foul.  You're still a good person; you just don't want to be a martial artist.  Totally OK.
> 
> *DAY ONE QUITTERS:*
> 
> About half of our prospective new students quit after the first day.  Reasons vary, and we don't even know all of them, but our theory is that for many, the reality of our martial arts training does not meet up with their expectations.
> 
> For example, we spend at least 30 minutes of our 2-hour training session doing calisthenics and stretching exercises.  We understand if you are not in good physical condition or if you have physical limitations that prevent you from doing everything we do; but do ask you to do what you can.  We do pushups, we do jumping jacks, we do crunchers and situps and we skip rope.  If you are able to keep pace, you will be breathing hard and sweating by the time we're ready to start any kind of actual training.  We do this because it is important to prepare the body and the mind for the activity that is to come.  We have found that some new students did not expect to have to do hard physical exercise, and that's not what they want to do.
> 
> We also start our newest students off with extreme basics, such as how to make a fist, how to stand, how to step forward and back, how to punch.  This may seem a far cry from smashing bricks or doing 'real' self-defense, but in grade school, you practiced writing your alphabet before you started writing words, and this is no different.  We have found that some new students do not like the idea of beginning at the very beginning.
> 
> It has also been noted that invariably, new students ask us _"How long until I get my black belt?"_  This is a very common and legitimate question, we'd be surprised if you did not ask it; but the answer may not be what you want to hear.  In our training facility, the answer is that it varies, depending upon the student.  At the minimum, it will take several years, and the average for us is probably somewhere in the five year range.  That's a long time, and we understand that may be disappointing for some.  We cannot say that it is not legitimate for a person to have _'earning a black belt'_ as a goal for their training, but in our training facility, we keep two things uppermost in mind.  First, for us, we're more interested in the training we receive than the belt we wear around our waists and second, sho-dan (first degree black belt) is only the beginning of a lifetime's commitment to martial arts training.  We do understand if that is not what you are interested in, but it is what we do here.
> 
> *3 MONTH QUITTERS:*
> 
> We're always happy when a new student returns, especially after the first day!  Unfortunately, we have also noticed that a lot of students stop coming around the the three-month mark.  Again, we're not certain, but there may be a number of reasons for this. We have noted that some students seem to quit after they have received their first or second belt promotions.  This is disappointing to us, because we've invested a lot in you as a student by now, we've gotten to know and like you as a person, and you've put in a lot of hard work.  We've welcomed you into our family, and no that you're not there, we notice it and we miss you.  We wish you'd come back!
> 
> When asked, some have said that they quit because even after three months, they felt they were not learning _'martial arts'._  That is, they were still spending a lot of time on basics.  Stepping, standing, punching, kicking, and the beginnings of kata and the foreign vocabulary words we use in our training facility.  Some of it does not feel like it's very much geared towards self-defense or even the kind of fluid, graceful, martial arts moves one can see in movies or on the Internet.  They might become discouraged or think that they are not progressing.  The fact is, you are progressing, you just don't see it in yourself yet.  You are adding speed and balance and power to your punches, even if you are punching air or a bag.  You are learning distancing and how to hit without hurting your hand, how to kick without hurting your toes.  You're improving; but you just don't see it in yourself yet.  The truth is, you'll probably never see it until you get to the point where you see yourself objectively, but you will get to the point where you see new students who are where you were, and you'll realize that you're not like that anymore.
> 
> The seasons are also changing after three months, in many places.  Fall turns into winter, the weather turns bad.  Students go back to school, schedules change for many of us.  It becomes harder to get to the training facility, harder to dedicate the time necessary.  People catch colds and flu and although they are understandably out for a short period, starting again afterwards can be an uphill slog.  The thing you should remember is that there is only one thing that separates many advanced students from beginning students; they kept attending training.  That's it.  No magic.  They're not more talented than you (OK, maybe some are, and you may be more naturally gifted than some of them), but they kept attending training.  If they seem much better than you are now, that's what time and practice does.  That may seem difficult to accept from the 'beginner' side of things, but it's true.
> 
> Boredom.  Yes, it's true.  Although we vary the routine in our training facility to try to keep things fresh, ultimately we are doing the same things over and over again.  And there is a certain amount of tedium in it if you do not have a long attention span.  But training the body is not exactly the same as training the mind; the body requires repetition to make certain movements natural and reflexive, to apply speed and power to them.  There will come a time when you will see an opening during sparring and you'll throw a punch or a kick and it will go right where you intended it to go, just as you intended it to land; but it will happen because you have thrown that punch of kick hundreds or thousands of times until it seems as natural as swatting a fly or reaching for a kitchen utensil.  It will be in your 'bag of tricks' and you can call upon it anytime you need it.  But until you do it over and over and over again, knowing the movement is not the same as applying the movement.  Yes, it's boring and repetitive and it gets old.  Part of your martial arts journey will be doing things that are not that much fun, without any apparent short-term benefit.
> 
> Afraid to come back after an absence.  Yes, we understand that there are good reasons why you have to stop training for a period of time.  Jobs, school, children, parents, seasons, sickness, injuries, finances, all kinds of reasons, many of them valid.  But we also want you to come back.  We like you by now.  We miss you.  Yes, some of your fellow new students will have advanced since you've been gone.  But that's not a big deal; this is not a race.  You will have lost some training too; you'll forget your kata or forms, your moves will be slow and rusty, you'll have to relearn some things.  But you'll also be surprised at how quickly you'll get it all back once you start training again.  It won't take as long as you think.  So don't think that it's a good idea to stop training permanently just because you had to stop training temporarily.  You don't even have to explain to us why you had to stop; we know how life is.  Just come back and start training again.
> 
> *BLACK BELT QUITTERS:*
> 
> The saddest thing is to see a student quit training when they receive their sho-dan or first-degree black belt.  One instructor put it this way; _"It hurts to know that they see the benefits and choose not to train anyway."_ A student who earns their black belt has generally shown the kind of dedication needed to keep training, to keep learning, to keep trying, no matter the obstacles put in front of them.  You are actively helping others in the training facility; you are looked up to as leaders and newer students model themselves after you.  You are respected and liked; your absence will be sorely felt.
> 
> Why did you quit?  Perhaps you felt like taking a break.  After all, it was a long and difficult climb to that first black belt rank, and there was quite likely an even more difficult last-minute push to make sure you had everything in place to test and pass that milestone.  You were in that last sprint to the finish line and perhaps now it feels like the race is over, or at least that you're not ready to immediately start another race to the next belt.
> 
> Hopefully, you don't think you've learned all there is to learn.  Most black belt students are quite aware that those who have advanced black belts have a level of mastery above them as much as they themselves have over a beginner.  You may have learned all the kata or forms, all the exercises, all the weapons; but it would be wrong to say you've mastered them.  Just as a person with a Bachelor's degree in biology understands the basics of human health, they are in no way a medical doctor.
> 
> Perhaps you feel that you've ticked a box off your bucket list.  If that's all all you wanted, it's perfectly valid; but it does mystify many of us who have turned the corner of perception from martial arts as a way of learning something (self-defense, good conditioning, etc) into seeing martial arts as a way of life, something to be pursued forever, perpetual students who always strive for a deeper level of understanding.  Everyone has their own reasons for training; and for quitting.   There is no 'right' or 'wrong' to it; but once a student reaches black belt range, many life-long students start to think that all black belts feel the same way about training that they do.  It's often a shock to find out that's not the case.
> 
> *THE WAY OF MARTIAL ARTS SUCCESS:*
> 
> The secret, prospective student, is simple, even if it is difficult to implement.  Find a training facility you like, with a qualified instructor that you respect, that teaches what you want to learn.  Find a way to attend regularly, even through difficulty and sacrifice.  Then keep training.  Through boredom, through injuries, through changes in your life that make it difficult to train.  If you have to stop, start again as soon as you can.  Practice when you are not able to train in person.  Repeat this for the rest of your life.  That is the secret to martial arts success.



kudos 2 whoever wrote this.


----------



## BigMotor

People are all the same in ways, and they make the same mistakes all over the world, that is true of all things. In the fighting realm, a lot of people will quit at the outset, because they did not realize that learning to fight involves work.

They think that if they show up, they will just absorb the vibes or something. Then they find out that it is strenuous and painful in many ways.

Then, as time goes by, something dawns on them, if they ever need to use it in defense, they might get seriously hurt. Or, conversely, they may have to hurt someone else.

A lot of people do not think things through, especially martial arts, which is a mystery to most folks. So when they join, and begin it is a real shock to them, that it takes serious effort. And they won't do it, so they quit.

Martial Arts is not for everyone, and it takes a certain fighting attitude to keep going in it.


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## wingchun100

A lot of people like the IDEA of learning martial arts, but not the work it takes to ACTUALLY do it.


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## Bill Mattocks

Very much like learning to dance, or play a musical instrument, etc. All take dedication more than skill.


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## pgsmith

BigMotor said:


> Martial Arts is not for everyone, and it takes a certain fighting attitude to keep going in it.



  Nope!
  It takes that attitude in order to be a fighter. However, I know people that have been in martial arts for decades that have never been involved in a fight, not even in the dojo! People practice martial arts for a great many different reasons. Learning to fight is only one of those reasons. As Bill said, the most important thing is dedication. You cannot learn if you do not go. If you go regularly, you'll eventually learn.


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## Flying Crane

Tony Dismukes said:


> The vast majority of martial artists, even reasonably accomplished ones (including black belts), _will_ quit training at some point in their lives.  Only a few of us are "lifers". Even for those of us who fit in to that category, you can't know for sure until we reach the end of our lives. I've been training for 35 years and plan to continue indefinitely, but maybe I'll feel differently when I'm 75.
> 
> If someone puts in the time and effort to meet the requirements for a black belt in their system, then they've earned it - even if they _don't_ continue on training to the grave.


Yeah, and some of life's circumstances can cause us to refocus our priorities, at least for a while.  Having a baby come into your life is a big one.  Taking the time to be present in his life as he grows, is worth far more than the training time that I am missing.  But it is temporary.  Perhaps someday he will ask his old man to teach him.

Being faced with a possible lay-off, and seeing it as an opportunity to go back to school and retrain for something completely different, is another one.  

Sometimes priorities need to shift, at least for a while.


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## BigMotor

*"Nope!"
"It takes that attitude in order to be a fighter. However, I know people that have been in martial arts for decades that have never been involved in a fight, not even in the dojo! People practice martial arts for a great many different reasons. Learning to fight is only one of those reasons. As Bill said, the most important thing is dedication. You cannot learn if you do not go. If you go regularly, you'll eventually learn."

pgsmith*
OK, if that is how you see it, that is fine. Unlike the dojo's that haven't been in a fight, I have been. To diminish the fighting aspect is silly, and I hear that elevated all of the time as the highest of goals. The motto should be, "I learn to fight, so that I won't fight." It is an oxymoron to me.
Do as you like, and I will too. Too many martial artist's treat it as a near-religious thing, but I don't, if it ain't good for fighting, I get rid of it.


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## drop bear

you will quit when you have lost.

or when you have won.


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## drop bear

pgsmith said:


> Nope!
> It takes that attitude in order to be a fighter. However, I know people that have been in martial arts for decades that have never been involved in a fight, not even in the dojo! People practice martial arts for a great many different reasons. Learning to fight is only one of those reasons. As Bill said, the most important thing is dedication. You cannot learn if you do not go. If you go regularly, you'll eventually learn.



Everyone is a fighter.


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## Bill Mattocks

Some people study the Japanese tea-making ceremony and don't especially like tea.

It's all valid. Martial arts for fighting, and for other reasons.


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## Flying Crane

BigMotor said:


> *"Nope!"
> "It takes that attitude in order to be a fighter. However, I know people that have been in martial arts for decades that have never been involved in a fight, not even in the dojo! People practice martial arts for a great many different reasons. Learning to fight is only one of those reasons. As Bill said, the most important thing is dedication. You cannot learn if you do not go. If you go regularly, you'll eventually learn."
> 
> pgsmith*
> OK, if that is how you see it, that is fine. Unlike the dojo's that haven't been in a fight, I have been. To diminish the fighting aspect is silly, and I hear that elevated all of the time as the highest of goals. The motto should be, "I learn to fight, so that I won't fight." It is an oxymoron to me.
> Do as you like, and I will too. Too many martial artist's treat it as a near-religious thing, but I don't, if it ain't good for fighting, I get rid of it.


I've been training since 1984.  I have never had a real fight.  I'm pretty good at talking things down, and when that doesn't work, it doesn't hurt my pride to walk, or even run, away.

And there is nothing even remotely religious about it, for me.


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## Flying Crane

BigMotor said:


> if it ain't good for fighting, I get rid of it.



You are far from unique. 

 I guess I'm trying to understand what your bigger message is.


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## Gerry Seymour

BigMotor said:


> *"Nope!"
> "It takes that attitude in order to be a fighter. However, I know people that have been in martial arts for decades that have never been involved in a fight, not even in the dojo! People practice martial arts for a great many different reasons. Learning to fight is only one of those reasons. As Bill said, the most important thing is dedication. You cannot learn if you do not go. If you go regularly, you'll eventually learn."
> 
> pgsmith*
> OK, if that is how you see it, that is fine. Unlike the dojo's that haven't been in a fight, I have been. To diminish the fighting aspect is silly, and I hear that elevated all of the time as the highest of goals. The motto should be, "I learn to fight, so that I won't fight." It is an oxymoron to me.
> Do as you like, and I will too. Too many martial artist's treat it as a near-religious thing, but I don't, if it ain't good for fighting, I get rid of it.


There are plenty of martial arts that don't have direct modern fight applications - like all the sword arts out there. Those folks are obviously not studying those to get better at modern self-defense. Nothing silly about that, any more than there's anything silly about riding a horse for the joy of riding a horse, rather than using it to travel across long distances.


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## Buka

C'mon, guys, you all know the bottom line. The reason any of us train is because we love it!

I'm pretty sure we're all crazy.


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## ralij

Usually I quit because I ran out of money due to job shifts or school or what have you. Keep the training at home, but being far from a dojo makes it difficult to keep proper form and impossible to advance.


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## Gerry Seymour

ralij said:


> Usually I quit because I ran out of money due to job shifts or school or what have you. Keep the training at home, but being far from a dojo makes it difficult to keep proper form and impossible to advance.


I have had a couple of periods where I couldn't get formal training because of money. I still trained any way I could, for as much as I could muster the will for. Sometimes, that was a pathetically small amount. Other times, I was a fiend even away from the dojo. And when I came back, I was always about as good physically and had found some new understandings that improved my technique and fired me up for new learning.


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## senseiblackbelt

Bill Mattocks said:


> *Dear Prospective New Student:*
> 
> First, welcome to our training facility.  We are glad you decided to start your martial arts training journey and we're glad you chose us.  We'd like to share a few things with you to get started, and we'd like to issue a couple of warnings, just so you know what to expect.
> 
> *
> PRE-QUITTERS:*
> 
> We'll never get to know you, unfortunately.  You've called or come by the training facility, picked up some literature, asked some questions.  Maybe you even stayed and watched some training.  You told yourself that this is something you think you'd like to do.  But for whatever reason, you don't come back.  You may be surprised, but every training facility has people who call multiple times to ask about training, and to state that they will definitely be in the next week to start training.  Some call every year in January; must be a New Year's Resolution or something.  Whatever; you won't sign up, you won't train.  You've quit before you've begun.
> 
> Some of you will ask around online about training.  Where the local facilities are, if this or that art or trainer is well-respected, and so on.  You'll describe your desire to start training, maybe give some background about yourself.  Perhaps you've been in the military and gotten some martial arts training there.  Perhaps you are a little older and trained in some martial arts style as a child and now you'd like to get back into it.  Perhaps you think it would be a good way to lose some weight, to stay fit, to learn self-defense.  You're very inquisitive, and seem enthusiastic, but you won't actually sign up and start training, for whatever reason.
> 
> Some of you will ask about video and book-based training.  You may or may not be pleased with the reply, because although there are some who think martial arts can be learned from a book or from a video, many trained martial artists do not, and they'll give you their unvarnished opinion.  We realize that this will probably lead to some angry words and a rapid departure.  Not only won't you join a martial arts training center, you also won't practice your asked-about book or video learning either.  We won't see you again online, although the discussion threads you've begun will probably continue for some time after you've gone.
> 
> Some of you will describe all the ways that it is impossible for you to train in person.  You live many miles from the nearest training facility.  You do not have a job, and therefore no money.  You do not have a vehicle or access to transportation.  You work or go to school when the training facility offers classes.  There are many reasons why local in-person training is not possible for you.  We can offer only this; finding a way to attend training is the first part of your martial arts journey.  If you cannot do this (and your reasons may be quite real, we're not calling you a liar), you would not keep training anyway; because it only gets harder from there.  If you really want to do it, you will find a way to make it happen, even if it means doing things that are quite uncomfortable or difficult, or making long-range plans that include waiting until you can change your circumstances.  Some will recommend that you wait until you can change your circumstances, but that in the meantime, you consider doing calisthenics, working out, doing weight training, becoming flexible, or taking other classes that can help you later; like ballroom dancing, or jazzercise or yoga or other forms of physical activity that require you to develop balance, rhythm,  and increase your endurance and basic fitness level.  You may reject these; after all, they are not what you want to do.  We agree, but we know from the benefit of having trained for awhile in martial arts that these things can and will benefit you; dancers are often quite good martial artists, people who are flexible from yoga find it easy to perform higher kicks, and so on.  Again, if you are unwilling to consider this type of training while you wait until your circumstances change so that you can get started with martial arts training, you are probably not that serious about martial arts training.
> 
> And let us just say that being a quitter is not a bad thing.  It's not meant to hurt or insult you.  People choose to do or not do things for all kinds of reasons, and just not wanting to do it is a perfectly valid reason.  There is no shame, and no harm, in deciding you don't want to do something; or in deciding after trying it that is just not for you.  Have no fear; walk away and do something you DO like to do.  We're all different, and we all want different things out of life.  No harm, no foul.  You're still a good person; you just don't want to be a martial artist.  Totally OK.
> 
> *DAY ONE QUITTERS:*
> 
> About half of our prospective new students quit after the first day.  Reasons vary, and we don't even know all of them, but our theory is that for many, the reality of our martial arts training does not meet up with their expectations.
> 
> For example, we spend at least 30 minutes of our 2-hour training session doing calisthenics and stretching exercises.  We understand if you are not in good physical condition or if you have physical limitations that prevent you from doing everything we do; but do ask you to do what you can.  We do pushups, we do jumping jacks, we do crunchers and situps and we skip rope.  If you are able to keep pace, you will be breathing hard and sweating by the time we're ready to start any kind of actual training.  We do this because it is important to prepare the body and the mind for the activity that is to come.  We have found that some new students did not expect to have to do hard physical exercise, and that's not what they want to do.
> 
> We also start our newest students off with extreme basics, such as how to make a fist, how to stand, how to step forward and back, how to punch.  This may seem a far cry from smashing bricks or doing 'real' self-defense, but in grade school, you practiced writing your alphabet before you started writing words, and this is no different.  We have found that some new students do not like the idea of beginning at the very beginning.
> 
> It has also been noted that invariably, new students ask us _"How long until I get my black belt?"_  This is a very common and legitimate question, we'd be surprised if you did not ask it; but the answer may not be what you want to hear.  In our training facility, the answer is that it varies, depending upon the student.  At the minimum, it will take several years, and the average for us is probably somewhere in the five year range.  That's a long time, and we understand that may be disappointing for some.  We cannot say that it is not legitimate for a person to have _'earning a black belt'_ as a goal for their training, but in our training facility, we keep two things uppermost in mind.  First, for us, we're more interested in the training we receive than the belt we wear around our waists and second, sho-dan (first degree black belt) is only the beginning of a lifetime's commitment to martial arts training.  We do understand if that is not what you are interested in, but it is what we do here.
> 
> *3 MONTH QUITTERS:*
> 
> We're always happy when a new student returns, especially after the first day!  Unfortunately, we have also noticed that a lot of students stop coming around the the three-month mark.  Again, we're not certain, but there may be a number of reasons for this. We have noted that some students seem to quit after they have received their first or second belt promotions.  This is disappointing to us, because we've invested a lot in you as a student by now, we've gotten to know and like you as a person, and you've put in a lot of hard work.  We've welcomed you into our family, and no that you're not there, we notice it and we miss you.  We wish you'd come back!
> 
> When asked, some have said that they quit because even after three months, they felt they were not learning _'martial arts'._  That is, they were still spending a lot of time on basics.  Stepping, standing, punching, kicking, and the beginnings of kata and the foreign vocabulary words we use in our training facility.  Some of it does not feel like it's very much geared towards self-defense or even the kind of fluid, graceful, martial arts moves one can see in movies or on the Internet.  They might become discouraged or think that they are not progressing.  The fact is, you are progressing, you just don't see it in yourself yet.  You are adding speed and balance and power to your punches, even if you are punching air or a bag.  You are learning distancing and how to hit without hurting your hand, how to kick without hurting your toes.  You're improving; but you just don't see it in yourself yet.  The truth is, you'll probably never see it until you get to the point where you see yourself objectively, but you will get to the point where you see new students who are where you were, and you'll realize that you're not like that anymore.
> 
> The seasons are also changing after three months, in many places.  Fall turns into winter, the weather turns bad.  Students go back to school, schedules change for many of us.  It becomes harder to get to the training facility, harder to dedicate the time necessary.  People catch colds and flu and although they are understandably out for a short period, starting again afterwards can be an uphill slog.  The thing you should remember is that there is only one thing that separates many advanced students from beginning students; they kept attending training.  That's it.  No magic.  They're not more talented than you (OK, maybe some are, and you may be more naturally gifted than some of them), but they kept attending training.  If they seem much better than you are now, that's what time and practice does.  That may seem difficult to accept from the 'beginner' side of things, but it's true.
> 
> Boredom.  Yes, it's true.  Although we vary the routine in our training facility to try to keep things fresh, ultimately we are doing the same things over and over again.  And there is a certain amount of tedium in it if you do not have a long attention span.  But training the body is not exactly the same as training the mind; the body requires repetition to make certain movements natural and reflexive, to apply speed and power to them.  There will come a time when you will see an opening during sparring and you'll throw a punch or a kick and it will go right where you intended it to go, just as you intended it to land; but it will happen because you have thrown that punch of kick hundreds or thousands of times until it seems as natural as swatting a fly or reaching for a kitchen utensil.  It will be in your 'bag of tricks' and you can call upon it anytime you need it.  But until you do it over and over and over again, knowing the movement is not the same as applying the movement.  Yes, it's boring and repetitive and it gets old.  Part of your martial arts journey will be doing things that are not that much fun, without any apparent short-term benefit.
> 
> Afraid to come back after an absence.  Yes, we understand that there are good reasons why you have to stop training for a period of time.  Jobs, school, children, parents, seasons, sickness, injuries, finances, all kinds of reasons, many of them valid.  But we also want you to come back.  We like you by now.  We miss you.  Yes, some of your fellow new students will have advanced since you've been gone.  But that's not a big deal; this is not a race.  You will have lost some training too; you'll forget your kata or forms, your moves will be slow and rusty, you'll have to relearn some things.  But you'll also be surprised at how quickly you'll get it all back once you start training again.  It won't take as long as you think.  So don't think that it's a good idea to stop training permanently just because you had to stop training temporarily.  You don't even have to explain to us why you had to stop; we know how life is.  Just come back and start training again.
> 
> *BLACK BELT QUITTERS:*
> 
> The saddest thing is to see a student quit training when they receive their sho-dan or first-degree black belt.  One instructor put it this way; _"It hurts to know that they see the benefits and choose not to train anyway."_ A student who earns their black belt has generally shown the kind of dedication needed to keep training, to keep learning, to keep trying, no matter the obstacles put in front of them.  You are actively helping others in the training facility; you are looked up to as leaders and newer students model themselves after you.  You are respected and liked; your absence will be sorely felt.
> 
> Why did you quit?  Perhaps you felt like taking a break.  After all, it was a long and difficult climb to that first black belt rank, and there was quite likely an even more difficult last-minute push to make sure you had everything in place to test and pass that milestone.  You were in that last sprint to the finish line and perhaps now it feels like the race is over, or at least that you're not ready to immediately start another race to the next belt.
> 
> Hopefully, you don't think you've learned all there is to learn.  Most black belt students are quite aware that those who have advanced black belts have a level of mastery above them as much as they themselves have over a beginner.  You may have learned all the kata or forms, all the exercises, all the weapons; but it would be wrong to say you've mastered them.  Just as a person with a Bachelor's degree in biology understands the basics of human health, they are in no way a medical doctor.
> 
> Perhaps you feel that you've ticked a box off your bucket list.  If that's all all you wanted, it's perfectly valid; but it does mystify many of us who have turned the corner of perception from martial arts as a way of learning something (self-defense, good conditioning, etc) into seeing martial arts as a way of life, something to be pursued forever, perpetual students who always strive for a deeper level of understanding.  Everyone has their own reasons for training; and for quitting.   There is no 'right' or 'wrong' to it; but once a student reaches black belt range, many life-long students start to think that all black belts feel the same way about training that they do.  It's often a shock to find out that's not the case.
> 
> *THE WAY OF MARTIAL ARTS SUCCESS:*
> 
> The secret, prospective student, is simple, even if it is difficult to implement.  Find a training facility you like, with a qualified instructor that you respect, that teaches what you want to learn.  Find a way to attend regularly, even through difficulty and sacrifice.  Then keep training.  Through boredom, through injuries, through changes in your life that make it difficult to train.  If you have to stop, start again as soon as you can.  Practice when you are not able to train in person.  Repeat this for the rest of your life.  That is the secret to martial arts success.


 what an interesting read.


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## mrt2

Interesting read.  And as a person returning to martial arts after a long hiatus (35 years) here is my perspective.

 It is true that most people quit.  If everyone stuck with it, there would be tens of millions of grand masters in the world.  I suspect the number of actual grand masters and masters is probably in the tens of thousands.

In the early 80s, I studied Tang Soo Do for exactly 3 years.  Being raised by a single mother, I was bullied in middle school and not wanting to repeat that experience in high school,  I signed up for Tang Soo Do just before Thanksgiving of my freshman year of high school,  Looking back, Tang Soo Do was really important to me in those days.  I transformed my body, losing 35 lbs in my first 8 or 10 months of training, and (eventually) changed my mindset.

I DID learn fairly early on that martial arts fighting isn't the same as street fighting.  About 6 months into my training, I started to believe I had some good martial arts skills.  My dojang produced some good tournament fighters, and I thought I was holding my own against them pretty well in sparring. (now I know they were just gong easy on me)  I already was outpacing the guy I started with, who was losing interest after his first belt test and never even took his second test.  (I guess he was a 3 or maybe 4 month quitter) And, I had just passed my second belt test and was wearing a fresh, new green belt.  In the spring of my freshman year, I got into an argument with another kid in school.  (stupid high school stuff).  I had some false confidence and so instead of backing down when he challenged me to fight, I stood my ground. He hit me in the face, and the next thing I knew, the two of us were wrestling on the ground.  I could hardly see anything.  It was humiliating.

Some guys might have quit martial arts at that point.  I didn't.  I learned that I wasn't nearly as good as I thought I was.  I wasn't as fit, and I wasn't as fast, and my technique was way too slow.  I also learned that there is a difference between showy techniques and practical self defense.  And I paid attention when we did self defense techniques in class and worked hard on those, just in case.  I also stepped up my training from 2 times/week to 5 times/week as we went into the summer.  Somehow, I feared that the school bullies would come after me after seeing my get my nose bloodied that spring.   When I returned to school in the fall, a lot of kids and teachers hardly recognized me.  Interestingly, I never got into another fight again.  Not in high school, and not ever.  Somehow, thanks to my training that summer, I changed my mindset, and never actually had to fight again.

Over the next 2 1/2 yearsI went on to move up the ranks up to Cho Dan Bo, or black belt candidate.  And then I quit.

Why would I do such a thing?  For one, the dojang expected more of me as a black belt candidate than just showing up to train 2 or 3 days a week.  They expected more teaching of lower belts, which I didn't mind, but also more time commitment to demonstrations at shopping malls and community centers and other places, and tournaments, which was both a time and money commitment that as a high school kid looking to go to college in a few months, I didn't have.  Especially since I also needed to find even more time to train for my black belt test.   So 6 months after earning my black stripe on my red belt, I felt I was stagnating in my training, maybe even getting worse. Looking back, I probably should have figured out a way to continue training through the end of high school and into college, but at the time, I just walked away.  So I was a 3 year quitter.

It is frustrating because at the time, I didn't appreciate what all that training did for me until years later. So over the years I have done lots of other activities to get some semblance of the conditioning I had in high school.  Jogging, which I did on an off through my late teens into my mid 20s.  Weight lifting, which I did for many years.  Step aerobics.  classic aerobics, Cardio kickboxing, body sculpting.  Pilates, Yoga, Spinning, Bicycling.  I tried all these things, and they all work, for awhile.  Until they don't.  The body adjusts, and what works to get you in condition eventually doesn't.  Or it does, but you don't appreciate what a blessing physical fitness is until you stop training and get fat and out of shape.

So now, for the first time in 35 years, I am back to martial arts.  A lot fatter than I was in high school, and moderate fit but hoping to get a lot fitter without injuring myself. (haven't given up on other things. Weights, yoga and cycling are still things that interest me, and are probably healthy ways to cross train).


----------



## AngryHobbit

Bill Mattocks said:


> I wrote it and thanks for the kind words.  I saw a photo of one of our ni-dans being promoted to sho-dan back when I was so new at our dojo that I did not have a gi yet.  I actually thought; _"Who's that fat sweaty  bastard in the t-shirt?"_  Oh yeah.  That was me.


Fantastic read - thank you for taking time to put it together. 

I've seen quite a few people quit when they realized what they were learning was not going to enable them to do spinning head kicks or run up and down walls.


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## pdg

AngryHobbit said:


> I've seen quite a few people quit when they realized what they were learning was not going to enable them to do spinning head kicks or run up and down walls.



We do spinning head kicks 

And, while it's not a defined part of the training syllabus (well, as far as I'm aware anyway) there's also a "reflex kick" using a wall or other object to gain extra height.

Looks like those quitters chose the wrong art


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## AngryHobbit

pdg said:


> We do spinning head kicks
> 
> And, while it's not a defined part of the training syllabus (well, as far as I'm aware anyway) there's also a "reflex kick" using a wall or other object to gain extra height.
> 
> Looks like those quitters chose the wrong art


And watched too many movies.


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## pdg

AngryHobbit said:


> And watched too many movies.



Nah, movies are good.

I'm still working on jumping over a mountain though - it must be possible, I saw it on telly...


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## AngryHobbit

pdg said:


> Nah, movies are good.
> 
> I'm still working on jumping over a mountain though - it must be possible, I saw it on telly...


No, wait, I want to do that whole "stepping on air as if it were stone" thingie from _Bulletproof Monk_.


----------



## pdg

AngryHobbit said:


> No, wait, I want to do that whole "stepping on air as if it were stone" thingie from _Bulletproof Monk_.



All it takes is practice, inspirational music and guidance from a guy with a long white beard.


----------



## Buka

mrt2 said:


> Interesting read.  And as a person returning to martial arts after a long hiatus (35 years) here is my perspective.
> 
> It is true that most people quit.  If everyone stuck with it, there would be tens of millions of grand masters in the world.  I suspect the number of actual grand masters and masters is probably in the tens of thousands.
> 
> In the early 80s, I studied Tang Soo Do for exactly 3 years.  Being raised by a single mother, I was bullied in middle school and not wanting to repeat that experience in high school,  I signed up for Tang Soo Do just before Thanksgiving of my freshman year of high school,  Looking back, Tang Soo Do was really important to me in those days.  I transformed my body, losing 35 lbs in my first 8 or 10 months of training, and (eventually) changed my mindset.
> 
> I DID learn fairly early on that martial arts fighting isn't the same as street fighting.  About 6 months into my training, I started to believe I had some good martial arts skills.  My dojang produced some good tournament fighters, and I thought I was holding my own against them pretty well in sparring. (now I know they were just gong easy on me)  I already was outpacing the guy I started with, who was losing interest after his first belt test and never even took his second test.  (I guess he was a 3 or maybe 4 month quitter) And, I had just passed my second belt test and was wearing a fresh, new green belt.  In the spring of my freshman year, I got into an argument with another kid in school.  (stupid high school stuff).  I had some false confidence and so instead of backing down when he challenged me to fight, I stood my ground. He hit me in the face, and the next thing I knew, the two of us were wrestling on the ground.  I could hardly see anything.  It was humiliating.
> 
> Some guys might have quit martial arts at that point.  I didn't.  I learned that I wasn't nearly as good as I thought I was.  I wasn't as fit, and I wasn't as fast, and my technique was way too slow.  I also learned that there is a difference between showy techniques and practical self defense.  And I paid attention when we did self defense techniques in class and worked hard on those, just in case.  I also stepped up my training from 2 times/week to 5 times/week as we went into the summer.  Somehow, I feared that the school bullies would come after me after seeing my get my nose bloodied that spring.   When I returned to school in the fall, a lot of kids and teachers hardly recognized me.  Interestingly, I never got into another fight again.  Not in high school, and not ever.  Somehow, thanks to my training that summer, I changed my mindset, and never actually had to fight again.
> 
> Over the next 2 1/2 yearsI went on to move up the ranks up to Cho Dan Bo, or black belt candidate.  And then I quit.
> 
> Why would I do such a thing?  For one, the dojang expected more of me as a black belt candidate than just showing up to train 2 or 3 days a week.  They expected more teaching of lower belts, which I didn't mind, but also more time commitment to demonstrations at shopping malls and community centers and other places, and tournaments, which was both a time and money commitment that as a high school kid looking to go to college in a few months, I didn't have.  Especially since I also needed to find even more time to train for my black belt test.   So 6 months after earning my black stripe on my red belt, I felt I was stagnating in my training, maybe even getting worse. Looking back, I probably should have figured out a way to continue training through the end of high school and into college, but at the time, I just walked away.  So I was a 3 year quitter.
> 
> It is frustrating because at the time, I didn't appreciate what all that training did for me until years later. So over the years I have done lots of other activities to get some semblance of the conditioning I had in high school.  Jogging, which I did on an off through my late teens into my mid 20s.  Weight lifting, which I did for many years.  Step aerobics.  classic aerobics, Cardio kickboxing, body sculpting.  Pilates, Yoga, Spinning, Bicycling.  I tried all these things, and they all work, for awhile.  Until they don't.  The body adjusts, and what works to get you in condition eventually doesn't.  Or it does, but you don't appreciate what a blessing physical fitness is until you stop training and get fat and out of shape.
> 
> So now, for the first time in 35 years, I am back to martial arts.  A lot fatter than I was in high school, and moderate fit but hoping to get a lot fitter without injuring myself. (haven't given up on other things. Weights, yoga and cycling are still things that interest me, and are probably healthy ways to cross train).



What a great post. Thanks for sharing that, I really enjoyed it.


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## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> Nah, movies are good.
> 
> I'm still working on jumping over a mountain though - it must be possible, I saw it on telly...


You have to redefine "mountain". Then it gets easy.


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## AngryHobbit

pdg said:


> All it takes is practice, inspirational music and guidance from a guy with a long white beard.


N-uh! I agree about practice and music, but sometimes, it takes guidance from the handsome Chow Yun-Fat in a gorgeous trench coat.


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## AngryHobbit

Jokes aside, there is something to be said about music at the dojo. I know some people consider it hokey, but there are certain portions of the practice where great music would really help. Strikes, for example. Or practicing kata.

Of course, I am extremely biased - I wrote my entire Master Thesis listening to Beethoven symphonies and Bach's Brandenburg concerti. And all my other fitness stuff involves music. I love E. S. Posthumus - "Nara" from "Unearthed" would be awesome for strike practice.


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## Buka

AngryHobbit said:


> Jokes aside, there is something to be said about music at the dojo. I know some people consider it hokey, but there are certain portions of the practice where great music would really help. Strikes, for example. Or practicing kata.
> 
> Of course, I am extremely biased - I wrote my entire Master Thesis listening to Beethoven symphonies and Bach's Brandenburg concerti. And all my other fitness stuff involves music. I love E. S. Posthumus - "Nara" from "Unearthed" would be awesome for strike practice.



Years ago, I was between dojos. Our building was bought and we were out on the street six weeks later. Man, did that suck big time. Thrown out, no dojo, WTF?  But that's life, so we trained every single day at the dojos of people we had become friends with. Different dojos, but we never missed a day of training. Turned out to be a wonderful and fun experience, then I opened my own dojo. Which certainly saved me gas money. 

Anyway, one of the Kenpo dojos we went to would start with the bow in, and a slight stretch - then the music would go on. Hard pounding, upbeat music over beautiful speakers placed just so. We would warm up doing foot work and throwing techniques to the music, smiling, yelling, kiai-ing, whatever.. Then we would stretch and do class. I always thought, "damn, that was serious fun."

Did the same thing in my dojo after that. Students loved it. It invigorated them.


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## AngryHobbit

Buka said:


> Years ago, I was between dojos. Our building was bought and we were out on the street six weeks later. Man, did that suck big time. Thrown out, no dojo, WTF?  But that's life, so we trained every single day at the dojos of people we had become friends with. Different dojos, but we never missed a day of training. Turned out to be a wonderful and fun experience, then I opened my own dojo. Which certainly saved me gas money.
> 
> Anyway, one of the Kenpo dojos we went to would start with the bow in, and a slight stretch - then the music would go on. Hard pounding, upbeat music over beautiful speakers placed just so. We would warm up doing foot work and throwing techniques to the music, smiling, yelling, kiai-ing, whatever.. Then we would stretch and do class. I always thought, "damn, that was serious fun."
> 
> Did the same thing in my dojo after that. Students loved it. It invigorated them.


That sounds like fun! What sort of music did you use? 

I like good instrumentals (like E. S. Posthumus and Escala), but it's also fun at the POUND class, where our instructor always plays something with an awesome beat - like "Uptown Funk" or "We will rock you".


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## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> Years ago, I was between dojos. Our building was bought and we were out on the street six weeks later. Man, did that suck big time. Thrown out, no dojo, WTF?  But that's life, so we trained every single day at the dojos of people we had become friends with. Different dojos, but we never missed a day of training. Turned out to be a wonderful and fun experience, then I opened my own dojo. Which certainly saved me gas money.
> 
> Anyway, one of the Kenpo dojos we went to would start with the bow in, and a slight stretch - then the music would go on. Hard pounding, upbeat music over beautiful speakers placed just so. We would warm up doing foot work and throwing techniques to the music, smiling, yelling, kiai-ing, whatever.. Then we would stretch and do class. I always thought, "damn, that was serious fun."
> 
> Did the same thing in my dojo after that. Students loved it. It invigorated them.


I've been toying with music lately. I use it often when training by myself - I seem to stay on my training, rather than getting into curriculum planning, when music is going. I trained mostly in formal, traditional dojos, but that doesn't really fit me and the way I teach. Problem is much of my music isn't SFW ("Foo your royal penis is clean" is a phrase that actually played as someone walked in when I was training alone), so I need to collect some appropriate music.


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## Buka

AngryHobbit said:


> That sounds like fun! What sort of music did you use?
> 
> I like good instrumentals (like E. S. Posthumus and Escala), but it's also fun at the POUND class, where our instructor always plays something with an awesome beat - like "Uptown Funk" or "We will rock you".



Lol. We used to use We Will Rock You [Bohemian Rhapsody] all the time. As well as Eye of the Tiger, several songs from the movie Beverly Hills Cop, Street Fighting Man by The Stones, Sun City my favorite warm up song - when the students warmed up to that they knew one seriously, nasty hard workout was coming - In and Around the Lake by whoever sang that,  some Grand Funk, some others I can't remember that the students brought in.

As for Uptown Funk....oh, man, I wish that had been around back in the day. When I hear that song now, I can't stand still, find it physically impossible. Even if I had a gun to my head, I'm either warming up or dancing, death be damned.

Just got called in to work on my day off. Going to get my stuff together right now [it's only a half shift] and I'm going to put on Uptown Funk right now. And dance and jab my way right into my damn uniform.   Don't believe me just watch! Hey, hey, hey!


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## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> Lol. We used to use We Will Rock You [Bohemian Rhapsody] all the time. As well as Eye of the Tiger, several songs from the movie Beverly Hills Cop, Street Fighting Man by The Stones, Sun City my favorite warm up song - when the students warmed up to that they knew one seriously, nasty hard workout was coming - In and Around the Lake by whoever sang that,  some Grand Funk, some others I can't remember that the students brought in.
> 
> As for Uptown Funk....oh, man, I wish that had been around back in the day. When I hear that song now, I can't stand still, find it physically impossible. Even if I had a gun to my head, I'm either warming up or dancing, death be damned.
> 
> Just got called in to work on my day off. Going to get my stuff together right now [it's only a half shift] and I'm going to put on Uptown Funk right now. And dance and jab my way right into my damn uniform.   Don't believe me just watch! Hey, hey, hey!


That song is infectious. I think I have it on 4 different playlists.


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## AngryHobbit

Buka said:


> Lol. We used to use We Will Rock You [Bohemian Rhapsody] all the time. As well as Eye of the Tiger, several songs from the movie Beverly Hills Cop, Street Fighting Man by The Stones, Sun City my favorite warm up song - when the students warmed up to that they knew one seriously, nasty hard workout was coming - In and Around the Lake by whoever sang that,  some Grand Funk, some others I can't remember that the students brought in.
> 
> As for Uptown Funk....oh, man, I wish that had been around back in the day. When I hear that song now, I can't stand still, find it physically impossible. Even if I had a gun to my head, I'm either warming up or dancing, death be damned.
> 
> Just got called in to work on my day off. Going to get my stuff together right now [it's only a half shift] and I'm going to put on Uptown Funk right now. And dance and jab my way right into my damn uniform.   Don't believe me just watch! Hey, hey, hey!


We've done Uptown Funk both in zumba and in POUND, and it's fun both ways. Good times!


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## Michele123

I would have frowned at the idea of music before.  I’ve always taken MA seriously and the idea of music during MA seemed disrespectful somehow. BUT last week, during warm-ups and agility exercises our instructor had a lot of really upbeat stuff playing. It was great!  Actually, I felt like we were part of some MA training montage in a movie. It really pumped up the energy!

The music was turned off once we got into working on actual techniques and stuff, which is good. I think it would be hard to focus on things if music were blasting then. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## _Simon_

Yeah same Michele, I never was a fan of putting music on while training.... until one I did XD. It's really quite fun actually, maybe only during kihon and kumite drills, but can't seem to keep it on for kata... kata is something precious to me that I like to have quiet for haha. And have been known to train to Spem in Alium (a choral piece) when it came on shuffle on my iPod, it was divine


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## mrt2




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## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah same Michele, I never was a fan of putting music on while training.... until one I did XD. It's really quite fun actually, maybe only during kihon and kumite drills, but can't seem to keep it on for kata... kata is something precious to me that I like to have quiet for haha. And have been known to train to Spem in Alium (a choral piece) when it came on shuffle on my iPod, it was divine


My problem with music during kata is that I start following the rhythm of the music, rather than the flow of the movements.


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## Buka

Love it for warm ups, would never have it on in class.


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## kravmaga1

Thanks for sharing this valuable information.


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## kunetao

I will quit Tomorrow...
but today I practice


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## Sarah Mc

Bill Mattocks said:


> There will come a time when you will see an opening during sparring and you'll throw a punch or a kick and it will go right where you intended it to go, just as you intended it to land; but it will happen because you have thrown that punch of kick hundreds or thousands of times until it seems as natural as swatting a fly or reaching for a kitchen utensil. It will be in your 'bag of tricks' and you can call upon it anytime you need it. But until you do it over and over and over again, knowing the movement is not the same as applying the movement.



This is so helpful for my exact dilemma.  I'm not considering quitting at all, but sparring is what I've become discouraged with at 6 weeks.  This is a practical way of understanding how improvement may occur - thank you!


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## NewbieJeff

Certainly a great post that I found very helpful as I’m looking to start soon. This will always be in the back of my mind as I begin my journey.


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## Leviathan

That's a very good question but it has been answered by and from the trainer perspective only. As I dropped from several martial art classes I can give you some answers from the student point of view. No more need to speculate upon my reasonings, here is a raw answer from first hand.

Beware: uncomfortable reading ahead.


Trainer, I'll quit...


*When I realize that your martial art is a fake *

There are many martial arts around and some are - to put it mildly - dubious. Yours however is totally effective and realistic, with natural movements and powerful techniques or at least that's what you keep on saying.

So you think this point is aiming at some bogus Ting Tsun Fu Do style but actually - based upon my own experience - I have karate shotokan as no. 1 on my mind. There are certainly other styles or martial arts for which it applies as well but after spending 3.5 years training karate shotokan in 2 different dojos with several trainers each and going to quite a few seminars with many different instructors - and then switching to Muay Thai - I can say I speak of a year long experience first hand and I have a comparison.

Why do I think your martial art is a fake? Because, in spite of calling itself a martial art, it trains you as much for a halfway realistic fight as a piano lesson. Yup! So many techniques, stances and training methods are totally useless for a fight:

- during rare so called sparring sessions, I've never seen a shotokan practitioner (regardless of the belt) successfully do an age uke, shuto uke, gedan barai or any other blocking technique we spend hours training on because they are way too slow. Even after years of training you intuitively do other moves.
- sure we can use those techniques we learned when we know what's coming and when but guess what: that's not the way a fight goes.
- speaking of a fight, you can't call your light contact kumite a fight: it's rather a touch game.
- maybe that's why techniques are nearly always trained in the air and not thrown with power on a heavy bag.
- katas are a bad joke. You may (probably will) disagree with me but you cannot deny that they are controversial: many people like them, many others don't. In any case: You don't see tennis katas (playing with an imaginary opponent, ball, racket, playfield and net), soccer katas, basket ball katas... Only some martial arts use them and claim they're preparing you for a fight. To me they are just a choreography and have remained by tradition. Bruce Lee called this "dry land swimming" and was totally right about it.

I had some doubts about the effectiveness of karate shotokan. My first trainer claimed it would evolve and become more and more realistic as you move along belts. Well that's barely the case. After 3.5 years I got so fed up and tried Muay Thai and... I saw the light. Man was I right: all the karate stuff I had been training so hard to learn was utterly useless in Thai box sparring... Even more, it was so counterproductive:
- In karate you freeze the punch technique upon impact, which is not a good idea when the fight goes on.
- the kime (counter move) is a disaster: you do a straight punch with the right hand while the left does the opposite move and comes to your waist line. A terrible idea as it leaves your face and body uncovered.
- ruling out low kicks is a very bad idea when considering self defense and anything martial.
- kicking with the back of the foot is fine as long as you're not going for it: try a hard roundhouse kick on a heavy back and you'll understand why Thai, mma and kyokushin fighters use their shin bones.

I could go on for long like this. Interestingly in the Muay Thai class I met a few guys who had previously tried karate shotokan but had come to a similar conclusion as me. The founder of kyokushin karate said Funakochi (founder of karate shotokan) was just teaching gymnastics and I absolutely agree. It's not just me then.

Want another example? Take any tournament like UFC, k1 or some other ko-event: you won't see a purely karate shotokan practitioner there, no chance for them. Contestants usually come from Muay Thai, mma...

So be honest and don't call your art martial when it isn't. Relabel it as Japanese / Chinese gymnastics or artistic sport and less people will loose their time doing the wrong sport. Don't take me wrong, I am not saying it is bad; the content just doesn't match the label.

Some people though don't mind or even notice about the artistic replacing the martial aspect. Fine for them but not my case or the one of many droppers.


*I'll quit when you no longer train me*

I am still in your class, you're still in charge, and we both show up for every class. But still you're not training me or other guys or maybe even no one else either... So what's going on?

- you're not advancing the stuff as I evolve. You just focus on a few basic techniques. Hook punches, uppercuts, swinging the upper body to dodge? Not even on your radar or prohibited. We seldom train kicks and if we do, we just do the front kick. Side kick, roundhouse, back kick, hook kick, spinning kicks and so on? Maybe once, maximum twice a year (if we're lucky). Sparring? Rarely. It allhas nothing to do with sound basics. If I had had to learn how to read and write with you, I would barely be able to read by the time students in other classes go to college.
- you're not correcting me if I do it wrong, even very wrong for quite a long time.
- you give no explanation on difficult techniques. Example: A trainer of kick boxing I had let one of his pets perform the spinning hook kick a few times, no explanation of whatever kind, no intermediary steps, no split into different steps. Then we had to do it. Is it a wonder if we nearly all sucked? Same thing happened with the tornado kick (though for that one we sucked a bit less). Anyway it had a positive effect: I started looking for tutorials on the internet and that was much better. A 10 minute video on YouTube would be muuuuuuch better than any "explanation" I had in your class.
- you may be devoting almost all your attention to some 17-year shooting star who has already won a few contests. Other participants are there to feed the dojo with their fees and keep the structure for you and your shooting star(s). True, there is more fame for your dojo to expect from such a shooting star than from a middle aged man who's definitely not into competition. But the success even of a talented promising student shouldn't be at the expense of the rest. I don't need a victory of a fellow student for my ego. Occasionally, advanced students may - partly - make up for that and take over a part of your training responsibility but it's usually just a crutch and not the job of those advanced students.

Have you become too lazy or don't you want me to learn? Are you afraid I might end up knowing as much as you? Do you want to keep an edge on me? If that's what you want you're pretty successful at it. Side effect: a high drop out percentage.



So how much time does it take till I quit? Well, it depends. Some times you quickly notice it's definitely not what you're looking for or what it claims to be. Other times you need a while to realize or even accept the truth; you may be sticking to it, thinking you have to do your basics till it gets interesting. In karate shotokan I was told by trainers you only get started when you get the black belt. WTF? So you're teaching me nothing till then? Are you telling me I am wasting my time and energy till then? That's an insane attitude and a lack of respect to many students. I am not an easy quitter. But sometimes sticking to it is more a matter of narrow mindedness than motivation.

Some readers will probably think I should have addressed these issues and should have had a word with the trainer. You're absolutely right. In fact I did it, with one trainer even many times. Result: absolutely none. So I quit their classes after a frustrating while. And as you can understand from this thread I was not the only one to leave.

I'm still practicing martial arts though: I do it on my own, using tutorial videos I find on the net. To me they are by far the best tutorials, made by trainers who really want to pass on their knowledge. I've done that for roughly 3 years now and I am learning and progressing (more than in many Classen I went to).

I may try another class but not in the near future. I am also fully aware that I can't do everything on my own. Interactions and training with others is an important part as well.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Leviathan said:


> That's a very good question but it has been answered by and from the trainer perspective only. As I dropped from several martial art classes I can give you some answers from the student point of view. No more need to speculate upon my reasonings, here is a raw answer from first hand.
> 
> Beware: uncomfortable reading ahead.
> 
> 
> Trainer, I'll quit...
> 
> 
> *When I realize that your martial art is a fake *
> 
> There are many martial arts around and some are - to put it mildly - dubious. Yours however is totally effective and realistic, with natural movements and powerful techniques or at least that's what you keep on saying.
> 
> So you think this point is aiming at some bogus Ting Tsun Fu Do style but actually - based upon my own experience - I have karate shotokan as no. 1 on my mind. There are certainly other styles or martial arts for which it applies as well but after spending 3.5 years training karate shotokan in 2 different dojos with several trainers each and going to quite a few seminars with many different instructors - and then switching to Muay Thai - I can say I speak of a year long experience first hand and I have a comparison.
> 
> Why do I think your martial art is a fake? Because, in spite of calling itself a martial art, it trains you as much for a halfway realistic fight as a piano lesson. Yup! So many techniques, stances and training methods are totally useless for a fight:
> 
> - during rare so called sparring sessions, I've never seen a shotokan practitioner (regardless of the belt) successfully do an age uke, shuto uke, gedan barai or any other blocking technique we spend hours training on because they are way too slow. Even after years of training you intuitively do other moves.
> - sure we can use those techniques we learned when we know what's coming and when but guess what: that's not the way a fight goes.
> - speaking of a fight, you can't call your light contact kumite a fight: it's rather a touch game.
> - maybe that's why techniques are nearly always trained in the air and not thrown with power on a heavy bag.
> - katas are a bad joke. You may (probably will) disagree with me but you cannot deny that they are controversial: many people like them, many others don't. In any case: You don't see tennis katas (playing with an imaginary opponent, ball, racket, playfield and net), soccer katas, basket ball katas... Only some martial arts use them and claim they're preparing you for a fight. To me they are just a choreography and have remained by tradition. Bruce Lee called this "dry land swimming" and was totally right about it.
> 
> I had some doubts about the effectiveness of karate shotokan. My first trainer claimed it would evolve and become more and more realistic as you move along belts. Well that's barely the case. After 3.5 years I got so fed up and tried Muay Thai and... I saw the light. Man was I right: all the karate stuff I had been training so hard to learn was utterly useless in Thai box sparring... Even more, it was so counterproductive:
> - In karate you freeze the punch technique upon impact, which is not a good idea when the fight goes on.
> - the kime (counter move) is a disaster: you do a straight punch with the right hand while the left does the opposite move and comes to your waist line. A terrible idea as it leaves your face and body uncovered.
> - ruling out low kicks is a very bad idea when considering self defense and anything martial.
> - kicking with the back of the foot is fine as long as you're not going for it: try a hard roundhouse kick on a heavy back and you'll understand why Thai, mma and kyokushin fighters use their shin bones.
> 
> I could go on for long like this. Interestingly in the Muay Thai class I met a few guys who had previously tried karate shotokan but had come to a similar conclusion as me. The founder of kyokushin karate said Funakochi (founder of karate shotokan) was just teaching gymnastics and I absolutely agree. It's not just me then.
> 
> Want another example? Take any tournament like UFC, k1 or some other ko-event: you won't see a purely karate shotokan practitioner there, no chance for them. Contestants usually come from Muay Thai, mma...
> 
> So be honest and don't call your art martial when it isn't. Relabel it as Japanese / Chinese gymnastics or artistic sport and less people will loose their time doing the wrong sport. Don't take me wrong, I am not saying it is bad; the content just doesn't match the label.
> 
> Some people though don't mind or even notice about the artistic replacing the martial aspect. Fine for them but not my case or the one of many droppers.
> 
> 
> *I'll quit when you no longer train me*
> 
> I am still in your class, you're still in charge, and we both show up for every class. But still you're not training me or other guys or maybe even no one else either... So what's going on?
> 
> - you're not advancing the stuff as I evolve. You just focus on a few basic techniques. Hook punches, uppercuts, swinging the upper body to dodge? Not even on your radar or prohibited. We seldom train kicks and if we do, we just do the front kick. Side kick, roundhouse, back kick, hook kick, spinning kicks and so on? Maybe once, maximum twice a year (if we're lucky). Sparring? Rarely. It allhas nothing to do with sound basics. If I had had to learn how to read and write with you, I would barely be able to read by the time students in other classes go to college.
> - you're not correcting me if I do it wrong, even very wrong for quite a long time.
> - you give no explanation on difficult techniques. Example: A trainer of kick boxing I had let one of his pets perform the spinning hook kick a few times, no explanation of whatever kind, no intermediary steps, no split into different steps. Then we had to do it. Is it a wonder if we nearly all sucked? Same thing happened with the tornado kick (though for that one we sucked a bit less). Anyway it had a positive effect: I started looking for tutorials on the internet and that was much better. A 10 minute video on YouTube would be muuuuuuch better than any "explanation" I had in your class.
> - you may be devoting almost all your attention to some 17-year shooting star who has already won a few contests. Other participants are there to feed the dojo with their fees and keep the structure for you and your shooting star(s). True, there is more fame for your dojo to expect from such a shooting star than from a middle aged man who's definitely not into competition. But the success even of a talented promising student shouldn't be at the expense of the rest. I don't need a victory of a fellow student for my ego. Occasionally, advanced students may - partly - make up for that and take over a part of your training responsibility but it's usually just a crutch and not the job of those advanced students.
> 
> Have you become too lazy or don't you want me to learn? Are you afraid I might end up knowing as much as you? Do you want to keep an edge on me? If that's what you want you're pretty successful at it. Side effect: a high drop out percentage.
> 
> 
> 
> So how much time does it take till I quit? Well, it depends. Some times you quickly notice it's definitely not what you're looking for or what it claims to be. Other times you need a while to realize or even accept the truth; you may be sticking to it, thinking you have to do your basics till it gets interesting. In karate shotokan I was told by trainers you only get started when you get the black belt. WTF? So you're teaching me nothing till then? Are you telling me I am wasting my time and energy till then? That's an insane attitude and a lack of respect to many students. I am not an easy quitter. But sometimes sticking to it is more a matter of narrow mindedness than motivation.
> 
> Some readers will probably think I should have addressed these issues and should have had a word with the trainer. You're absolutely right. In fact I did it, with one trainer even many times. Result: absolutely none. So I quit their classes after a frustrating while. And as you can understand from this thread I was not the only one to leave.
> 
> I'm still practicing martial arts though: I do it on my own, using tutorial videos I find on the net. To me they are by far the best tutorials, made by trainers who really want to pass on their knowledge. I've done that for roughly 3 years now and I am learning and progressing (more than in many Classen I went to).
> 
> I may try another class but not in the near future. I am also fully aware that I can't do everything on my own. Interactions and training with others is an important part as well.


What an interesting way to create a first impression.


----------



## Retrofit

Leviathan said:


> That's a very good question but it has been answered by and from the trainer perspective only. As I dropped from several martial art classes I can give you some answers from the student point of view. No more need to speculate upon my reasonings, here is a raw answer from first hand.
> 
> Beware: uncomfortable reading ahead.
> 
> 
> Trainer, I'll quit...
> 
> 
> *When I realize that your martial art is a fake *
> 
> There are many martial arts around and some are - to put it mildly - dubious. Yours however is totally effective and realistic, with natural movements and powerful techniques or at least that's what you keep on saying.
> 
> So you think this point is aiming at some bogus Ting Tsun Fu Do style but actually - based upon my own experience - I have karate shotokan as no. 1 on my mind. There are certainly other styles or martial arts for which it applies as well but after spending 3.5 years training karate shotokan in 2 different dojos with several trainers each and going to quite a few seminars with many different instructors - and then switching to Muay Thai - I can say I speak of a year long experience first hand and I have a comparison.
> 
> Why do I think your martial art is a fake? Because, in spite of calling itself a martial art, it trains you as much for a halfway realistic fight as a piano lesson. Yup! So many techniques, stances and training methods are totally useless for a fight:
> 
> - during rare so called sparring sessions, I've never seen a shotokan practitioner (regardless of the belt) successfully do an age uke, shuto uke, gedan barai or any other blocking technique we spend hours training on because they are way too slow. Even after years of training you intuitively do other moves.
> - sure we can use those techniques we learned when we know what's coming and when but guess what: that's not the way a fight goes.
> - speaking of a fight, you can't call your light contact kumite a fight: it's rather a touch game.
> - maybe that's why techniques are nearly always trained in the air and not thrown with power on a heavy bag.
> - katas are a bad joke. You may (probably will) disagree with me but you cannot deny that they are controversial: many people like them, many others don't. In any case: You don't see tennis katas (playing with an imaginary opponent, ball, racket, playfield and net), soccer katas, basket ball katas... Only some martial arts use them and claim they're preparing you for a fight. To me they are just a choreography and have remained by tradition. Bruce Lee called this "dry land swimming" and was totally right about it.
> 
> I had some doubts about the effectiveness of karate shotokan. My first trainer claimed it would evolve and become more and more realistic as you move along belts. Well that's barely the case. After 3.5 years I got so fed up and tried Muay Thai and... I saw the light. Man was I right: all the karate stuff I had been training so hard to learn was utterly useless in Thai box sparring... Even more, it was so counterproductive:
> - In karate you freeze the punch technique upon impact, which is not a good idea when the fight goes on.
> - the kime (counter move) is a disaster: you do a straight punch with the right hand while the left does the opposite move and comes to your waist line. A terrible idea as it leaves your face and body uncovered.
> - ruling out low kicks is a very bad idea when considering self defense and anything martial.
> - kicking with the back of the foot is fine as long as you're not going for it: try a hard roundhouse kick on a heavy back and you'll understand why Thai, mma and kyokushin fighters use their shin bones.
> 
> I could go on for long like this. Interestingly in the Muay Thai class I met a few guys who had previously tried karate shotokan but had come to a similar conclusion as me. The founder of kyokushin karate said Funakochi (founder of karate shotokan) was just teaching gymnastics and I absolutely agree. It's not just me then.
> 
> Want another example? Take any tournament like UFC, k1 or some other ko-event: you won't see a purely karate shotokan practitioner there, no chance for them. Contestants usually come from Muay Thai, mma...
> 
> So be honest and don't call your art martial when it isn't. Relabel it as Japanese / Chinese gymnastics or artistic sport and less people will loose their time doing the wrong sport. Don't take me wrong, I am not saying it is bad; the content just doesn't match the label.
> 
> Some people though don't mind or even notice about the artistic replacing the martial aspect. Fine for them but not my case or the one of many droppers.
> 
> 
> *I'll quit when you no longer train me*
> 
> I am still in your class, you're still in charge, and we both show up for every class. But still you're not training me or other guys or maybe even no one else either... So what's going on?
> 
> - you're not advancing the stuff as I evolve. You just focus on a few basic techniques. Hook punches, uppercuts, swinging the upper body to dodge? Not even on your radar or prohibited. We seldom train kicks and if we do, we just do the front kick. Side kick, roundhouse, back kick, hook kick, spinning kicks and so on? Maybe once, maximum twice a year (if we're lucky). Sparring? Rarely. It allhas nothing to do with sound basics. If I had had to learn how to read and write with you, I would barely be able to read by the time students in other classes go to college.
> - you're not correcting me if I do it wrong, even very wrong for quite a long time.
> - you give no explanation on difficult techniques. Example: A trainer of kick boxing I had let one of his pets perform the spinning hook kick a few times, no explanation of whatever kind, no intermediary steps, no split into different steps. Then we had to do it. Is it a wonder if we nearly all sucked? Same thing happened with the tornado kick (though for that one we sucked a bit less). Anyway it had a positive effect: I started looking for tutorials on the internet and that was much better. A 10 minute video on YouTube would be muuuuuuch better than any "explanation" I had in your class.
> - you may be devoting almost all your attention to some 17-year shooting star who has already won a few contests. Other participants are there to feed the dojo with their fees and keep the structure for you and your shooting star(s). True, there is more fame for your dojo to expect from such a shooting star than from a middle aged man who's definitely not into competition. But the success even of a talented promising student shouldn't be at the expense of the rest. I don't need a victory of a fellow student for my ego. Occasionally, advanced students may - partly - make up for that and take over a part of your training responsibility but it's usually just a crutch and not the job of those advanced students.
> 
> Have you become too lazy or don't you want me to learn? Are you afraid I might end up knowing as much as you? Do you want to keep an edge on me? If that's what you want you're pretty successful at it. Side effect: a high drop out percentage.
> 
> 
> 
> So how much time does it take till I quit? Well, it depends. Some times you quickly notice it's definitely not what you're looking for or what it claims to be. Other times you need a while to realize or even accept the truth; you may be sticking to it, thinking you have to do your basics till it gets interesting. In karate shotokan I was told by trainers you only get started when you get the black belt. WTF? So you're teaching me nothing till then? Are you telling me I am wasting my time and energy till then? That's an insane attitude and a lack of respect to many students. I am not an easy quitter. But sometimes sticking to it is more a matter of narrow mindedness than motivation.
> 
> Some readers will probably think I should have addressed these issues and should have had a word with the trainer. You're absolutely right. In fact I did it, with one trainer even many times. Result: absolutely none. So I quit their classes after a frustrating while. And as you can understand from this thread I was not the only one to leave.
> 
> I'm still practicing martial arts though: I do it on my own, using tutorial videos I find on the net. To me they are by far the best tutorials, made by trainers who really want to pass on their knowledge. I've done that for roughly 3 years now and I am learning and progressing (more than in many Classen I went to).
> 
> I may try another class but not in the near future. I am also fully aware that I can't do everything on my own. Interactions and training with others is an important part as well.




Hmm, to me it sounds like you have been looking for fighting in a point-based karate style, so comparing shotokan with KK, Muay Thair, etc makes it super clear that you wanted the latter. Also, you might have been to "bad" dojos, that didn't help you understand that. I any case, I am glad you have found a solution that works for you, motivation is key and if you don't get it frorm your training you need to change something! 

Good job though, it isn't easy to restart in new classes, takes alot of energy. Osu!


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Leviathan said:


> That's a very good question but it has been answered by and from the trainer perspective only. As I dropped from several martial art classes I can give you some answers from the student point of view. No more need to speculate upon my reasonings, here is a raw answer from first hand.
> 
> Beware: uncomfortable reading ahead.
> 
> 
> Trainer, I'll quit...
> 
> 
> *When I realize that your martial art is a fake *
> 
> There are many martial arts around and some are - to put it mildly - dubious. Yours however is totally effective and realistic, with natural movements and powerful techniques or at least that's what you keep on saying.
> 
> So you think this point is aiming at some bogus Ting Tsun Fu Do style but actually - based upon my own experience - I have karate shotokan as no. 1 on my mind. There are certainly other styles or martial arts for which it applies as well but after spending 3.5 years training karate shotokan in 2 different dojos with several trainers each and going to quite a few seminars with many different instructors - and then switching to Muay Thai - I can say I speak of a year long experience first hand and I have a comparison.
> 
> Why do I think your martial art is a fake? Because, in spite of calling itself a martial art, it trains you as much for a halfway realistic fight as a piano lesson. Yup! So many techniques, stances and training methods are totally useless for a fight:
> 
> - during rare so called sparring sessions, I've never seen a shotokan practitioner (regardless of the belt) successfully do an age uke, shuto uke, gedan barai or any other blocking technique we spend hours training on because they are way too slow. Even after years of training you intuitively do other moves.
> - sure we can use those techniques we learned when we know what's coming and when but guess what: that's not the way a fight goes.
> - speaking of a fight, you can't call your light contact kumite a fight: it's rather a touch game.
> - maybe that's why techniques are nearly always trained in the air and not thrown with power on a heavy bag.
> - katas are a bad joke. You may (probably will) disagree with me but you cannot deny that they are controversial: many people like them, many others don't. In any case: You don't see tennis katas (playing with an imaginary opponent, ball, racket, playfield and net), soccer katas, basket ball katas... Only some martial arts use them and claim they're preparing you for a fight. To me they are just a choreography and have remained by tradition. Bruce Lee called this "dry land swimming" and was totally right about it.
> 
> I had some doubts about the effectiveness of karate shotokan. My first trainer claimed it would evolve and become more and more realistic as you move along belts. Well that's barely the case. After 3.5 years I got so fed up and tried Muay Thai and... I saw the light. Man was I right: all the karate stuff I had been training so hard to learn was utterly useless in Thai box sparring... Even more, it was so counterproductive:
> - In karate you freeze the punch technique upon impact, which is not a good idea when the fight goes on.
> - the kime (counter move) is a disaster: you do a straight punch with the right hand while the left does the opposite move and comes to your waist line. A terrible idea as it leaves your face and body uncovered.
> - ruling out low kicks is a very bad idea when considering self defense and anything martial.
> - kicking with the back of the foot is fine as long as you're not going for it: try a hard roundhouse kick on a heavy back and you'll understand why Thai, mma and kyokushin fighters use their shin bones.
> 
> I could go on for long like this. Interestingly in the Muay Thai class I met a few guys who had previously tried karate shotokan but had come to a similar conclusion as me. The founder of kyokushin karate said Funakochi (founder of karate shotokan) was just teaching gymnastics and I absolutely agree. It's not just me then.
> 
> Want another example? Take any tournament like UFC, k1 or some other ko-event: you won't see a purely karate shotokan practitioner there, no chance for them. Contestants usually come from Muay Thai, mma...
> 
> So be honest and don't call your art martial when it isn't. Relabel it as Japanese / Chinese gymnastics or artistic sport and less people will loose their time doing the wrong sport. Don't take me wrong, I am not saying it is bad; the content just doesn't match the label.
> 
> Some people though don't mind or even notice about the artistic replacing the martial aspect. Fine for them but not my case or the one of many droppers.
> 
> 
> *I'll quit when you no longer train me*
> 
> I am still in your class, you're still in charge, and we both show up for every class. But still you're not training me or other guys or maybe even no one else either... So what's going on?
> 
> - you're not advancing the stuff as I evolve. You just focus on a few basic techniques. Hook punches, uppercuts, swinging the upper body to dodge? Not even on your radar or prohibited. We seldom train kicks and if we do, we just do the front kick. Side kick, roundhouse, back kick, hook kick, spinning kicks and so on? Maybe once, maximum twice a year (if we're lucky). Sparring? Rarely. It allhas nothing to do with sound basics. If I had had to learn how to read and write with you, I would barely be able to read by the time students in other classes go to college.
> - you're not correcting me if I do it wrong, even very wrong for quite a long time.
> - you give no explanation on difficult techniques. Example: A trainer of kick boxing I had let one of his pets perform the spinning hook kick a few times, no explanation of whatever kind, no intermediary steps, no split into different steps. Then we had to do it. Is it a wonder if we nearly all sucked? Same thing happened with the tornado kick (though for that one we sucked a bit less). Anyway it had a positive effect: I started looking for tutorials on the internet and that was much better. A 10 minute video on YouTube would be muuuuuuch better than any "explanation" I had in your class.
> - you may be devoting almost all your attention to some 17-year shooting star who has already won a few contests. Other participants are there to feed the dojo with their fees and keep the structure for you and your shooting star(s). True, there is more fame for your dojo to expect from such a shooting star than from a middle aged man who's definitely not into competition. But the success even of a talented promising student shouldn't be at the expense of the rest. I don't need a victory of a fellow student for my ego. Occasionally, advanced students may - partly - make up for that and take over a part of your training responsibility but it's usually just a crutch and not the job of those advanced students.
> 
> Have you become too lazy or don't you want me to learn? Are you afraid I might end up knowing as much as you? Do you want to keep an edge on me? If that's what you want you're pretty successful at it. Side effect: a high drop out percentage.
> 
> 
> 
> So how much time does it take till I quit? Well, it depends. Some times you quickly notice it's definitely not what you're looking for or what it claims to be. Other times you need a while to realize or even accept the truth; you may be sticking to it, thinking you have to do your basics till it gets interesting. In karate shotokan I was told by trainers you only get started when you get the black belt. WTF? So you're teaching me nothing till then? Are you telling me I am wasting my time and energy till then? That's an insane attitude and a lack of respect to many students. I am not an easy quitter. But sometimes sticking to it is more a matter of narrow mindedness than motivation.
> 
> Some readers will probably think I should have addressed these issues and should have had a word with the trainer. You're absolutely right. In fact I did it, with one trainer even many times. Result: absolutely none. So I quit their classes after a frustrating while. And as you can understand from this thread I was not the only one to leave.
> 
> I'm still practicing martial arts though: I do it on my own, using tutorial videos I find on the net. To me they are by far the best tutorials, made by trainers who really want to pass on their knowledge. I've done that for roughly 3 years now and I am learning and progressing (more than in many Classen I went to).
> 
> I may try another class but not in the near future. I am also fully aware that I can't do everything on my own. Interactions and training with others is an important part as well.


Just an FYI, the original poster was not a trainer. In fact, I don't think he ever was.


----------



## Christopher Adamchek

A very nice read!


----------



## Bruce7

It sounds like you want to develop your skills as a fighter.


Leviathan said:


> That's a very good question but it has been answered by and from the trainer perspective only. As I dropped from several martial art classes I can give you some answers from the student point of view. No more need to speculate upon my reasonings, here is a raw answer from first hand.
> 
> Beware: uncomfortable reading ahead.
> 
> 
> Trainer, I'll quit...
> 
> 
> *When I realize that your martial art is a fake *
> 
> There are many martial arts around and some are - to put it mildly - dubious. Yours however is totally effective and realistic, with natural movements and powerful techniques or at least that's what you keep on saying.
> 
> So you think this point is aiming at some bogus Ting Tsun Fu Do style but actually - based upon my own experience - I have karate shotokan as no. 1 on my mind. There are certainly other styles or martial arts for which it applies as well but after spending 3.5 years training karate shotokan in 2 different dojos with several trainers each and going to quite a few seminars with many different instructors - and then switching to Muay Thai - I can say I speak of a year long experience first hand and I have a comparison.
> 
> Why do I think your martial art is a fake? Because, in spite of calling itself a martial art, it trains you as much for a halfway realistic fight as a piano lesson. Yup! So many techniques, stances and training methods are totally useless for a fight:
> 
> - during rare so called sparring sessions, I've never seen a shotokan practitioner (regardless of the belt) successfully do an age uke, shuto uke, gedan barai or any other blocking technique we spend hours training on because they are way too slow. Even after years of training you intuitively do other moves.
> - sure we can use those techniques we learned when we know what's coming and when but guess what: that's not the way a fight goes.
> - speaking of a fight, you can't call your light contact kumite a fight: it's rather a touch game.
> - maybe that's why techniques are nearly always trained in the air and not thrown with power on a heavy bag.
> - katas are a bad joke. You may (probably will) disagree with me but you cannot deny that they are controversial: many people like them, many others don't. In any case: You don't see tennis katas (playing with an imaginary opponent, ball, racket, playfield and net), soccer katas, basket ball katas... Only some martial arts use them and claim they're preparing you for a fight. To me they are just a choreography and have remained by tradition. Bruce Lee called this "dry land swimming" and was totally right about it.
> 
> I had some doubts about the effectiveness of karate shotokan. My first trainer claimed it would evolve and become more and more realistic as you move along belts. Well that's barely the case. After 3.5 years I got so fed up and tried Muay Thai and... I saw the light. Man was I right: all the karate stuff I had been training so hard to learn was utterly useless in Thai box sparring... Even more, it was so counterproductive:
> - In karate you freeze the punch technique upon impact, which is not a good idea when the fight goes on.
> - the kime (counter move) is a disaster: you do a straight punch with the right hand while the left does the opposite move and comes to your waist line. A terrible idea as it leaves your face and body uncovered.
> - ruling out low kicks is a very bad idea when considering self defense and anything martial.
> - kicking with the back of the foot is fine as long as you're not going for it: try a hard roundhouse kick on a heavy back and you'll understand why Thai, mma and kyokushin fighters use their shin bones.
> 
> I could go on for long like this. Interestingly in the Muay Thai class I met a few guys who had previously tried karate shotokan but had come to a similar conclusion as me. The founder of kyokushin karate said Funakochi (founder of karate shotokan) was just teaching gymnastics and I absolutely agree. It's not just me then.
> 
> Want another example? Take any tournament like UFC, k1 or some other ko-event: you won't see a purely karate shotokan practitioner there, no chance for them. Contestants usually come from Muay Thai, mma...
> 
> So be honest and don't call your art martial when it isn't. Relabel it as Japanese / Chinese gymnastics or artistic sport and less people will loose their time doing the wrong sport. Don't take me wrong, I am not saying it is bad; the content just doesn't match the label.
> 
> Some people though don't mind or even notice about the artistic replacing the martial aspect. Fine for them but not my case or the one of many droppers.
> 
> 
> *I'll quit when you no longer train me*
> 
> I am still in your class, you're still in charge, and we both show up for every class. But still you're not training me or other guys or maybe even no one else either... So what's going on?
> 
> - you're not advancing the stuff as I evolve. You just focus on a few basic techniques. Hook punches, uppercuts, swinging the upper body to dodge? Not even on your radar or prohibited. We seldom train kicks and if we do, we just do the front kick. Side kick, roundhouse, back kick, hook kick, spinning kicks and so on? Maybe once, maximum twice a year (if we're lucky). Sparring? Rarely. It allhas nothing to do with sound basics. If I had had to learn how to read and write with you, I would barely be able to read by the time students in other classes go to college.
> - you're not correcting me if I do it wrong, even very wrong for quite a long time.
> - you give no explanation on difficult techniques. Example: A trainer of kick boxing I had let one of his pets perform the spinning hook kick a few times, no explanation of whatever kind, no intermediary steps, no split into different steps. Then we had to do it. Is it a wonder if we nearly all sucked? Same thing happened with the tornado kick (though for that one we sucked a bit less). Anyway it had a positive effect: I started looking for tutorials on the internet and that was much better. A 10 minute video on YouTube would be muuuuuuch better than any "explanation" I had in your class.
> - you may be devoting almost all your attention to some 17-year shooting star who has already won a few contests. Other participants are there to feed the dojo with their fees and keep the structure for you and your shooting star(s). True, there is more fame for your dojo to expect from such a shooting star than from a middle aged man who's definitely not into competition. But the success even of a talented promising student shouldn't be at the expense of the rest. I don't need a victory of a fellow student for my ego. Occasionally, advanced students may - partly - make up for that and take over a part of your training responsibility but it's usually just a crutch and not the job of those advanced students.
> 
> Have you become too lazy or don't you want me to learn? Are you afraid I might end up knowing as much as you? Do you want to keep an edge on me? If that's what you want you're pretty successful at it. Side effect: a high drop out percentage.
> 
> 
> 
> So how much time does it take till I quit? Well, it depends. Some times you quickly notice it's definitely not what you're looking for or what it claims to be. Other times you need a while to realize or even accept the truth; you may be sticking to it, thinking you have to do your basics till it gets interesting. In karate shotokan I was told by trainers you only get started when you get the black belt. WTF? So you're teaching me nothing till then? Are you telling me I am wasting my time and energy till then? That's an insane attitude and a lack of respect to many students. I am not an easy quitter. But sometimes sticking to it is more a matter of narrow mindedness than motivation.
> 
> Some readers will probably think I should have addressed these issues and should have had a word with the trainer. You're absolutely right. In fact I did it, with one trainer even many times. Result: absolutely none. So I quit their classes after a frustrating while. And as you can understand from this thread I was not the only one to leave.
> 
> I'm still practicing martial arts though: I do it on my own, using tutorial videos I find on the net. To me they are by far the best tutorials, made by trainers who really want to pass on their knowledge. I've done that for roughly 3 years now and I am learning and progressing (more than in many Classen I went to).
> 
> I may try another class but not in the near future. I am also fully aware that I can't do everything on my own. Interactions and training with others is an important part as well.


It sounds like you would like to develop your skills as a fighter, why go to a good MMA school. I think it would be a good fit for you.


----------



## Tez3

Leviathan said:


> I've never seen a shotokan practitioner (regardless of the belt) successfully do an age uke, shuto uke, gedan barai or any other blocking technique we spend hours training on because they are way too slow.




I assume you don't know that some of the best *full contact *karateka fighters are Shotokan? 



Leviathan said:


> Take any tournament like UFC, k1 or some other ko-event: you won't see a purely karate shotokan practitioner there, no chance for them. Contestants usually come from Muay Thai, mma...



You won't see any 'one style' fighter in MMA, that's why it's called MIXED martial arts, you know, with lots of different styles and techniques from different styles mixed in. 
Actually I suspect you know far less than you think you do...…..


----------



## Bruce7

Tez3 said:


> I assume you don't know that some of the best *full contact *karateka fighters are Shotokan?
> 
> 
> 
> You won't see any 'one style' fighter in MMA, that's why it's called MIXED martial arts, you know, with lots of different styles and techniques from different styles mixed in.
> Actually I suspect you know far less than you think you do...…..


Loved the film, that is how we spared in the 70's early 80's.
Does Shotokan still spar like that?


----------



## Tez3

Bruce7 said:


> Loved the film, that is how we spared in the 70's early 80's.
> Does Shotokan still spar like that?




As far as I know they do, like all styles there's good, bad and indifferent places. You can't generalise about a style just because one place you train isn't so good. I don't train Shotokan, my instructor did, I'm Wado Ryu ( yes we spar full contact when with suitable partners) Shotokan I've been told is ideal for bigger people, Wado for small because of the way stances etc are in the respective styles.

I really hate it when people slag off a style based on misinformation and bias.


----------



## Tez3

Leviathan said:


> katas are a bad joke. You may (probably will) disagree with me but you cannot deny that they are controversial: many people like them, many others don't. In any case: You don't see tennis katas (playing with an imaginary opponent, ball, racket, playfield and net), soccer katas, basket ball katas... Only some martial arts use them and claim they're preparing you for a fight. To me they are just a choreography and have remained by tradition. Bruce Lee called this "dry land swimming" and was totally right about it.




More misunderstanding and ignorance. 
The definition of kata is that it is a system of individual training exercises so yes you do have them in tennis, football basketball, etc. No one in martial arts actually claims they are preparing you for a fight, they are individual exercises in techniques and a record of those techniques. Bruce Lee's teacher, Ip Man, an acknowledged, tested fighter, taught him forms. Not everyone does kata, those that do find benefit in them, it's not up to you to decide they are wrong. Arrogance is never a pleasant thing to see in a martial artist. 




Leviathan said:


> I'm still practicing martial arts though: I do it on my own, using tutorial videos I find on the net. To me they are by far the best tutorials, made by trainers who really want to pass on their knowledge. I've done that for roughly 3 years now and I am learning and progressing (more than in many Classen I went to).



Sorry, all I can do is chuckle to myself here. It really is quite amusing that you think you can learn from a video better than with a proper instructor is laughable but crack on, the first time you have to defend yourself or compete will show you why I'm laughing.



Bruce7 said:


> It sounds like you would like to develop your skills as a fighter, why go to a good MMA school. I think it would be a good fit for you.



As long as he reins in the arrogance and the 'I know it all ' attitude.


----------



## pdg

Tez3 said:


> The definition of kata is that it is a system of individual training exercises so yes you do have them in tennis, football basketball, etc. No one in martial arts actually claims they are preparing you for a fight



Unfortunately, some people do claim that very thing.

Even more unfortunately, some people believe them...


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> More misunderstanding and ignorance.
> The definition of kata is that it is a system of individual training exercises so yes you do have them in tennis, football basketball, etc. No one in martial arts actually claims they are preparing you for a fight, they are individual exercises in techniques and a record of those techniques. Bruce Lee's teacher, Ip Man, an acknowledged, tested fighter, taught him forms. Not everyone does kata, those that do find benefit in them, it's not up to you to decide they are wrong. Arrogance is never a pleasant thing to see in a martial artist.



Ip Man was a tested fighter?

How exactly? 

Having done both kata-based arts and non-kata based arts (mainly martial sports), I give the nod to the latter in preparing you better for actual fighting.


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## Tez3

pdg said:


> Unfortunately, some people do claim that very thing.
> 
> Even more unfortunately, some people believe them...



I've been in martial arts for over 40 years and not heard anyone say it 'prepares' you to fight. They may say it teaches you to fight but not prepare you to, it may sound like semantics but think about it. How can it 'prepare' you?


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## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> Ip Man was a tested fighter?
> 
> How exactly?
> 
> Having done both kata-based arts and non-kata based arts (mainly martial sports), I give the nod to the latter in preparing you better for actual fighting.



I didn't say anything about Ip Man and fighting actually, you're making things up again, the quote was about what Bruce Lee said about kata and I pointed out his instructor did and also taught him kata so please get it right. Bruce Lee wasn't a 'tested' fighter either btw.

Think what you like about kata even though you have often shown you know little about it but it will actually do more for you than trying to teach yourself from random videos off the internet which is what that poster is doing.


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## pdg

Tez3 said:


> I've been in martial arts for over 40 years and not heard anyone say it 'prepares' you to fight. They may say it teaches you to fight but not prepare you to, it may sound like semantics but think about it. How can it 'prepare' you?



Teach/prepare - you had not previously specified a contextual difference in the interpretation.

But now that you have - it can directly prepare you to fight just as much as it can directly teach you to fight.

(In case I'm not being clear, imo it can't.)


----------



## Tez3

pdg said:


> Teach/prepare - you had not previously specified a contextual difference in the interpretation.
> 
> But now that you have - it can directly prepare you to fight just as much as it can directly teach you to fight.
> 
> (In case I'm not being clear, imo it can't.)




You seem to think I'm saying it can teach you to fight, I'm not because that's NOT what kata is for, it's for civilian unarmed self defence not fighting.

However the poster is still wrong because in many sports individual training is done which is what kata is ( whatever you think it's for, it's still individual training). Golfers practise on a driving range, tennis players hit balls fired at them from a machine, basketball players practise shooting hoops, football ( proper football not American) players practise shooting penalties. BJJers practice shrimping and other drills. Boxers shadow box which is actually the same as a simple kata, it is a solo practice of techniques.


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## pdg

Tez3 said:


> You seem to think I'm saying it can teach you to fight



That's not what I got from your post at all...




Edit to add: I'm agreeing with what you said by the way, there's no need to look for a way to argue with me.


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> Think what you like about kata even though you have often shown you know little about it but it will actually do more for you than trying to teach yourself from random videos off the internet which is what that poster is doing.



Well, I can agree with that. Kata is better than nothing, though it is pretty close to nothing.


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## Tez3

pdg said:


> That's not what I got from your post at all...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit to add: I'm agreeing with what you said by the way, there's no need to look for a way to argue with me.




I'm not arguing I'm explaining why I'm right.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tez3 said:


> I didn't say anything about Ip Man and fighting actually, you're making things up again, the quote was about what Bruce Lee said about kata and I pointed out his instructor did and also taught him kata so please get it right. Bruce Lee wasn't a 'tested' fighter either btw.
> 
> Think what you like about kata even though you have often shown you know little about it but it will actually do more for you than trying to teach yourself from random videos off the internet which is what that poster is doing.


Unless I misread it, you directly called ip man an acknowledged, tested fighter, in the post hanzo quoted.


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## Tez3

kempodisciple said:


> Unless I misread it, you directly called ip man an acknowledged, tested fighter, in the post hanzo quoted.




And? The context was clear, Bruce Lee who was taught and did forms saying forms were pointless. The point wasn't about fighting it was about kata. it's irrelevant whether or not he was a fighter, though I have been reliably informed he was, because the post was about kata not fighting.


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## _Simon_

... what's kata? Is that short for like a type of underground cemetery?





Tez3 said:


> I assume you don't know that some of the best *full contact *karateka fighters are Shotokan?
> 
> 
> 
> You won't see any 'one style' fighter in MMA, that's why it's called MIXED martial arts, you know, with lots of different styles and techniques from different styles mixed in.
> Actually I suspect you know far less than you think you do...…..


Loved the vid... spotted a haito uchi and uraken, never seen them used in tournaments like that, very cool!


----------



## Leviathan

Tez3 said:


> I assume you don't know that some of the best *full contact *karateka fighters are Shotokan?
> 
> 
> 
> You won't see any 'one style' fighter in MMA, that's why it's called MIXED martial arts, you know, with lots of different styles and techniques from different styles mixed in.
> Actually I suspect you know far less than you think you do...…..



 *Most fights shown in the video are definitely not modern shotokan kumite*, no way:

- in your video they fight semi or full contact, they go for the ko, while shotokan sticks to light contact (point fighting). Landing a hard punch or a hard kick in a shotokan kumite will get you a penalty first and if you repeat it you'll be excluded from the competition. (Sometimes, unfair athletes even fake receiving a hard blow to try to get the judges to punish the opponent)
- In your video they generally fight with bare knuckles and use no feet protection, in shotokan kumite gloves and feet protection are mandatory (see video below).
- Quite a few techniques displayed are not from shotokan: jump knee kick, low kick, do mawashi keiten geri...

So referring to this video to prove the efficiency of karate shotokan is simply adorning it with borrowed feathers.

This is what modern Shotokan Kumite looks like (and no, I didn't write any of the bad comments under the video):






There are many karate styles, which can be very different. It ranges from artistic shotokan to hard core kyokushin. That's why I was careful to refer to karate shotokan and not just karate.


----------



## Leviathan

Tez3 said:


> You seem to think I'm saying it can teach you to fight, I'm not because that's NOT what kata is for, it's for civilian unarmed self defence not fighting.
> 
> However the poster is still wrong because in many sports individual training is done which is what kata is ( whatever you think it's for, it's still individual training). Golfers practise on a driving range, tennis players hit balls fired at them from a machine, basketball players practise shooting hoops, football ( proper football not American) players practise shooting penalties. BJJers practice shrimping and other drills. Boxers shadow box which is actually the same as a simple kata, it is a solo practice of techniques.




Shadow boxing, which I practised in Muay Thai, is usually done as a warm up and you don't spend countless hours going through a given choreography (jab, right cross, hop, turn left, hop hop, upper body swing...   ). Katas and shadow boxing are totally different things. 

A tennis kata would be like: 3 quick steps to the right, arm swing, back to start, hop hop, 5 quick steps 15 degrees to the left, arm swing, 2 steps ahead, jumping to the right and arm swing etc. And don't do one step too much or go for the wrong angle. But no worry: you'll train that often and long enough to remember the choreography accurately. Of course no net, no ball, no opponent, no field with marks... (Maybe a racket in your hand?)   

Benefits? Yeah if you consider the alternative is smoking while drinking beers and eating potato chips on the couch…


----------



## Leviathan

Tez3 said:


> More misunderstanding and ignorance.
> The definition of kata is that it is a system of individual training exercises so yes you do have them in tennis, football basketball, etc. No one in martial arts actually claims they are preparing you for a fight, they are individual exercises in techniques and a record of those techniques. Bruce Lee's teacher, Ip Man, an acknowledged, tested fighter, taught him forms. Not everyone does kata, those that do find benefit in them, it's not up to you to decide they are wrong. Arrogance is never a pleasant thing to see in a martial artist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, all I can do is chuckle to myself here. It really is quite amusing that you think you can learn from a video better than with a proper instructor is laughable but crack on, the first time you have to defend yourself or compete will show you why I'm laughing.
> 
> 
> 
> As long as he reins in the arrogance and the 'I know it all ' attitude.



Yes, one can learn a lot from some videos on the net (not all), more than from many trainers. As an example I find your land mate Aaron Gasser a fantastic instructor. Here is - as an example - a great video about ushiro ura mawashi geri / spinning hook kick. Yes, he's a Tae Kwon Do instructor but the technique is also found in many martial arts and I can definitely learn a lot from such a video.






As I said in my first post, I have no ambition to compete and I am fully aware of the fact that fighting skills require training with others. You can't do it all on your own.

Finally, it is clear we have different opinions on martial arts but still I would like to ask you to remain respectful. We can argue and be hard on the subject but easy on the people. My first post was an answer to the question at the start, aimed at a hypothetical trainer who was asking a hypothetical student when he would quit. It's a discussion forum and I welcome diverging opinions, especially when they are backed up by facts. 

Have a good day and a Merry Christmas.


----------



## Tez3

Leviathan said:


> Finally, it is clear we have different opinions on martial arts but still I would like to ask you to remain respectful.




Actually you are the disrespectful one by coming on here and posting some quite arrogant assumptions. Look up the empty cup analogy. You cannot come onto a site where many people have been doing martial arts for *decades* telling them that your opinion is correct and everyone else is wrong. it's not that your opinion is unwelcome, it's not but when you set yourself up as an expereienced expert and are clearly not all you will encounter is laughter.



Leviathan said:


> As an example I find your *land mate *Aaron Gasser a fantastic instructor.



What does that even mean? 

Watching videos does not teach you how to do techniques correctly, at best it shows you others doing the techniques correctly but doesn't mean you can do them that way. You need someone to watch you and make those corrections that stop you damaging yourself, you may not think it hurts at the time but spend a while doing it correctly and you will end up with bad hips, etc.

Kata is what I said it is, an individual training aid, you are making assumptions that are incorrect, that it is always the set style found in some karate styles.
kata | Definition of kata in English by Oxford Dictionaries


----------



## Leviathan

Tez3 said:


> Actually you are the disrespectful one by coming on here and posting some quite arrogant assumptions. Look up the empty cup analogy. You cannot come onto a site where many people have been doing martial arts for *decades* telling them that your opinion is correct and everyone else is wrong. it's not that your opinion is unwelcome, it's not but when you set yourself up as an expereienced expert and are clearly not all you will encounter is laughter.
> 
> 
> 
> What does that even mean?
> 
> Watching videos does not teach you how to do techniques correctly, at best it shows you others doing the techniques correctly but doesn't mean you can do them that way. You need someone to watch you and make those corrections that stop you damaging yourself, you may not think it hurts at the time but spend a while doing it correctly and you will end up with bad hips, etc.
> 
> Kata is what I said it is, an individual training aid, you are making assumptions that are incorrect, that it is always the set style found in some karate styles.
> kata | Definition of kata in English by Oxford Dictionaries



Why have you gone berserk? 

This thread is about when and why students leave. A hypothetical trainer asks a hypothetical student when he will leave and goes at great lengths over plausible reasons. As a several quitter from several trainers / dojos / styles I can report first hand what went wrong with some dojos and trainers, it's not always the student's "fault". And I am not assuming: I come up with facts and own experience. Now what did you expect? "Dear trainer I quit because your martial art is great / cause you're fantastic / cause that's exactly what I was looking for".  When some dojos experience very high drop rates from new - and not so new - students you have to consider the possibility that the problem at least partly lies within the dojo / trainer / art itself. But can you?

You've got more than 40 years of training "martial" arts? That doesn't allow you to behave as the Sun King faced with lèse-majesty. That doesn't make you omniscient or even open minded to unpleasant facts. Maybe you've brainwashed yourself in those years. 40 years spent in the same place won't make you discover the world. Maybe you're not used to people openly questionning a trainer or your art (although I was clearly referring to karate shotokan and not your style as I don't know it, maybe you overlooked that)...

As many students who enter a shotokan dojo I questionned myself, the so called martial art, the trainer, looked around, put myself and my skills to the test, acquired new insights. And I am not the only one (see high drop rates of students).


----------



## Tez3

Leviathan said:


> You've got more than 40 years of training "martial" arts? That doesn't allow you to behave as the Sun King faced with lèse-majesty. That doesn't make you omniscient or even open minded to unpleasant facts. Maybe you've brainwashed yourself in those years. 40 years spent in the same place won't make you discover the world. Maybe you're not used to people openly questionning a trainer or your art (although I was clearly referring to karate shotokan and not your style as I don't know it, maybe you overlooked that)...




Now, that made me laugh, thank you for being so amusing.


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## RichardB6

Thanks for sharing it.. it is really worth reading.


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## Rick Franklin

I know this is an old post but I felt compelled to throw in my opinion about students quitting. I recently quit Tang Soo Do and probably martial arts in general so I sympathized more with the quitters than the stayers. In fact I read all the replies on here looking for a good rebuttal to the OP but not really getting it. Shotokan karate being fake is a popular complaint but really, the more hardcore martial arts still have lots of quitters. And for many of the same reasons as the traditional ones.
 For me, I thought about the mental gymnastics people have to go through to do a traditional martial art. All the pretense they have to accept and not question. It's very much like a religion. Karatekas may not share beliefs about the cosmos but their beliefs about who they are and what they're doing is just as religious as any priest or monk. You could see it dripping off every word in the OP, a smugness about what he had accomplished and a gentle head-shake over what those hapless new students were missing out on when they quit. He was living out a story in his head.
 So I tried to think of a past-time that didn't have all this baggage of identity surrounding it. But something that you might do for fun and might get better at the more you do it. Something like, say, juggling. No one becomes a great juggler in order to feel more manly or in order to feel safer walking down dark streets at night. I doubt many jugglers identify themselves as A JUGGLER right up there with being A SON and A FATHER and A HUSBAND, or any of the other big "roles" out there that people get their identity tied up with.
 Let's say you thought juggling looked like fun and you wanted to try it out. But in order to really learn to juggle (as opposed to mimicking YouTube videos and reading books which we all know isn't the REAL juggling), you had to join a society of LARPers. Let's call them the French Aristocracy. They pretend that they're the royal court of Louis the XIV, the Sun King.
 To learn to juggle, you must wear period-appropriate clothing including a wig and pantaloons. You start out as a lowly courtier and must bow before the actual royalty. The instructor is your Sun King and deserves commensurate praise. If you keep juggling, working hard at your craft, you might be promoted to a viceroy or duke. And then you can be really proud of what you accomplished.
 Maybe you see all this silliness and you think, hey I really do like to juggle and this is the best way to learn, so you swallow your pride and you learn all those French customs of 17th century aristocracy and you try to focus on enjoying the actual craft of juggling.
 There's no breaking character with the French Aristocracy. You can't just chat it up with a Duke like he's a regular guy or help him with a juggling technique if you see him struggling to keep five balls in the air. You can't tell the Sun King his wig looks ridiculous. When you run into one of the viceroys outside of juggling practice, maybe you are sure to tell him how much fun it is and how much you're learning but you definitely don't say how much the French Aristocracy is a drag and you'd rather just juggle.
 Even if you stick it out for years, and maybe you do get a little thrill when you get promoted to duke, still there's that side of you that knows it's all pretentious nonsense. A constant cognitive dissonance between the real you (who buys groceries and cleans up cat poop and wants to sleep in on Saturdays) and the "aristocratic" you whom you have to become to keep juggling. And you do like to juggle.
 Then you get injured. Let's say your juggling bowling balls and one falls on your foot. So you can't go to the meetings of the French Aristocracy for some time. Part of you is relieved. It's a lot of work to keep yourself performing like that. Like holding your breath underwater. Your injury improves in time and you think about going back to juggling but there's that hesitation. You know you can't break character once you get back on the bandwagon. And it's so nice to just be you when you're not there. But the juggling is fun! But damn that wig is stuffy. Your head is sweating like the whole time.
 Looking at martial arts like this, the real question seems to be why doesn't everyone quit?
 I guess there will always be those people who grew up on movies about the French Aristocracy. Who wanted to be Louis the XIV or Marie Antoinette when they were young. For them, the thrill of putting on that wig and those pantaloons, it takes them out of the mundanity of their daily life. And it's worth doing it for as long as they can, reveling in each French phrase, giving the royal curtsy to exactly the right depth. Looking at the unwashed masses and thinking, that guy has no idea what it feels like to be a duke or to juggle a bowling ball and a tennis ball at the same time. There's a pride in that.
 There will also be the people who love juggling so much that they decide it's worth dealing with all LARPing. Because juggling is just so much damn fun. They'll wear whatever wig they have to if it lets them keep juggling into a ripe old age. Maybe some of them decide to just juggle on their own. Set up a juggle room in their basement. Then they never have to wear a wig or utter a French phrase again. They can still enjoy juggling, but it's not quite the same without all their friends to juggle with. But hey, it's something.


----------



## Leviathan

@ Rick Franklin: interesting comparison. I must stress however that hard core martial arts have an advantage over light contact / choreographic arts:

- in Muay Thai / MMA you can always put something to the test by trying it out in sparring / the ring (as long as you respect some basic rules though) and see if it works;

- in karate shotokan or tai chi since they don't fight (and some are not even aware of it) but religiously obey some codex developed by some master a long time ago, they don't put challenging ideas to the fight test so it remains a matter of belief or disbelief, somehow it easily boils down to questioning the virgin birth in front of catholic fundamentalists.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Rick Franklin said:


> I know this is an old post but I felt compelled to throw in my opinion about students quitting. I recently quit Tang Soo Do and probably martial arts in general so I sympathized more with the quitters than the stayers. In fact I read all the replies on here looking for a good rebuttal to the OP but not really getting it. Shotokan karate being fake is a popular complaint but really, the more hardcore martial arts still have lots of quitters. And for many of the same reasons as the traditional ones.
> For me, I thought about the mental gymnastics people have to go through to do a traditional martial art. All the pretense they have to accept and not question. It's very much like a religion. Karatekas may not share beliefs about the cosmos but their beliefs about who they are and what they're doing is just as religious as any priest or monk. You could see it dripping off every word in the OP, a smugness about what he had accomplished and a gentle head-shake over what those hapless new students were missing out on when they quit. He was living out a story in his head.
> So I tried to think of a past-time that didn't have all this baggage of identity surrounding it. But something that you might do for fun and might get better at the more you do it. Something like, say, juggling. No one becomes a great juggler in order to feel more manly or in order to feel safer walking down dark streets at night. I doubt many jugglers identify themselves as A JUGGLER right up there with being A SON and A FATHER and A HUSBAND, or any of the other big "roles" out there that people get their identity tied up with.
> Let's say you thought juggling looked like fun and you wanted to try it out. But in order to really learn to juggle (as opposed to mimicking YouTube videos and reading books which we all know isn't the REAL juggling), you had to join a society of LARPers. Let's call them the French Aristocracy. They pretend that they're the royal court of Louis the XIV, the Sun King.
> To learn to juggle, you must wear period-appropriate clothing including a wig and pantaloons. You start out as a lowly courtier and must bow before the actual royalty. The instructor is your Sun King and deserves commensurate praise. If you keep juggling, working hard at your craft, you might be promoted to a viceroy or duke. And then you can be really proud of what you accomplished.
> Maybe you see all this silliness and you think, hey I really do like to juggle and this is the best way to learn, so you swallow your pride and you learn all those French customs of 17th century aristocracy and you try to focus on enjoying the actual craft of juggling.
> There's no breaking character with the French Aristocracy. You can't just chat it up with a Duke like he's a regular guy or help him with a juggling technique if you see him struggling to keep five balls in the air. You can't tell the Sun King his wig looks ridiculous. When you run into one of the viceroys outside of juggling practice, maybe you are sure to tell him how much fun it is and how much you're learning but you definitely don't say how much the French Aristocracy is a drag and you'd rather just juggle.
> Even if you stick it out for years, and maybe you do get a little thrill when you get promoted to duke, still there's that side of you that knows it's all pretentious nonsense. A constant cognitive dissonance between the real you (who buys groceries and cleans up cat poop and wants to sleep in on Saturdays) and the "aristocratic" you whom you have to become to keep juggling. And you do like to juggle.
> Then you get injured. Let's say your juggling bowling balls and one falls on your foot. So you can't go to the meetings of the French Aristocracy for some time. Part of you is relieved. It's a lot of work to keep yourself performing like that. Like holding your breath underwater. Your injury improves in time and you think about going back to juggling but there's that hesitation. You know you can't break character once you get back on the bandwagon. And it's so nice to just be you when you're not there. But the juggling is fun! But damn that wig is stuffy. Your head is sweating like the whole time.
> Looking at martial arts like this, the real question seems to be why doesn't everyone quit?
> I guess there will always be those people who grew up on movies about the French Aristocracy. Who wanted to be Louis the XIV or Marie Antoinette when they were young. For them, the thrill of putting on that wig and those pantaloons, it takes them out of the mundanity of their daily life. And it's worth doing it for as long as they can, reveling in each French phrase, giving the royal curtsy to exactly the right depth. Looking at the unwashed masses and thinking, that guy has no idea what it feels like to be a duke or to juggle a bowling ball and a tennis ball at the same time. There's a pride in that.
> There will also be the people who love juggling so much that they decide it's worth dealing with all LARPing. Because juggling is just so much damn fun. They'll wear whatever wig they have to if it lets them keep juggling into a ripe old age. Maybe some of them decide to just juggle on their own. Set up a juggle room in their basement. Then they never have to wear a wig or utter a French phrase again. They can still enjoy juggling, but it's not quite the same without all their friends to juggle with. But hey, it's something.


I think you're conflating "martial arts" with "traditional Asian martial arts". There's very little of what you speak of in boxing, for instance. Not a lot of it in my classes, for that matter, which are in a fairly traditional Japanese art. There's significantly more of it in the Karate classes at the same school. I noticed none of it in the MMA gym where @Tony Dismukes teaches and trains.

There's a huge range out there, in martial arts, as with most pursuits. You just have to find what suits you.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Leviathan said:


> @ Rick Franklin: interesting comparison. I must stress however that hard core martial arts have an advantage over light contact / choreographic arts:
> 
> - in Muay Thai / MMA you can always put something to the test by trying it out in sparring / the ring (as long as you respect some basic rules though) and see if it works;
> 
> - in karate shotokan or tai chi since they don't fight (and some are not even aware of it) but religiously obey some codex developed by some master a long time ago, they don't put challenging ideas to the fight test so it remains a matter of belief or disbelief, somehow it easily boils down to questioning the virgin birth in front of catholic fundamentalists.


That's a pretty broad generalization of Shotokan. I know some schools actually spar - with moderate contact or more - on a regular basis.


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## Rick Franklin

gpseymour said:


> I think you're conflating "martial arts" with "traditional Asian martial arts". There's very little of what you speak of in boxing, for instance. Not a lot of it in my classes, for that matter, which are in a fairly traditional Japanese art. There's significantly more of it in the Karate classes at the same school. I noticed none of it in the MMA gym where @Tony Dismukes teaches and trains.
> 
> There's a huge range out there, in martial arts, as with most pursuits. You just have to find what suits you.



Actually I would disagree. I think all martial arts suffer from it to some degree because of the large amount of identity that practitioners get from their art. Boxers and MMA artists are more likely to get caught up in hyper-masculinity than in Eastern traditions but the end result is the same. There's a role to be played. There's a hierarchy to be maintained. The craft is elevated to something almost mysterious. I've seen it on the faces of karatekas, BJJ'ers and boxers alike. As if they're lost in the fantasies and fears that motivate them.

I wouldn't speculate on the content of your classes and I'm sure there are schools out there that manage to avoid this kind of thinking. But I'm still convinced that's the exception not the rule. Once you replace the martial art with juggling, a lot of the silliness becomes clear.


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## Buka

So you quit juggling too, oui?

And welcome to Martial Talk, bro.


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## Gerry Seymour

Rick Franklin said:


> Actually I would disagree. I think all martial arts suffer from it to some degree because of the large amount of identity that practitioners get from their art. Boxers and MMA artists are more likely to get caught up in hyper-masculinity than in Eastern traditions but the end result is the same. There's a role to be played. There's a hierarchy to be maintained. The craft is elevated to something almost mysterious. I've seen it on the faces of karatekas, BJJ'ers and boxers alike. As if they're lost in the fantasies and fears that motivate them.
> 
> I wouldn't speculate on the content of your classes and I'm sure there are schools out there that manage to avoid this kind of thinking. But I'm still convinced that's the exception not the rule. Once you replace the martial art with juggling, a lot of the silliness becomes clear.


Some places the craft is raised to the near-mysterious. I see little of that in MMA gyms, and less of the hyper-masculinity than you would likely expect. Certainly less than I'd expected before being exposed to the folks who actually train there. You've generalized either your experience or a stereotype - I can't tell which - well beyond what my experience has been. And that's coming from someone who has been exposed to (and somewhat bought into) the fantasy.


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## Rick Franklin

Buka said:


> So you quit juggling too, oui?
> 
> And welcome to Martial Talk, bro.



Haha, yeah I think my juggling days are over. That won't stop me from reading the occasional blog or watching a YouTube video, thinking about some juggling technique.


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## Rick Franklin

gpseymour said:


> Some places the craft is raised to the near-mysterious. I see little of that in MMA gyms, and less of the hyper-masculinity than you would likely expect. Certainly less than I'd expected before being exposed to the folks who actually train there. You've generalized either your experience or a stereotype - I can't tell which - well beyond what my experience has been. And that's coming from someone who has been exposed to (and somewhat bought into) the fantasy.



The BJJ place I tried was always so serious. God forbid you crack a joke in the middle of a roll. Everyone was so concentrated on being a bad-*** (or on winning?). So resplendent with the victory of BJJ over all other martial arts (at least in their minds). There was no appreciation of the basic absurdity of putting on Asian pajamas to roll around on the floor with other sweaty men and try to choke them. It took all the fun out of it.

Boxing I think needs a whole lot more LARPing than most martial arts. I mean karate LARPing is pretty harmless. But with boxing you have to overcome the basic common sense of what you're doing to your brain to keep going at it. How else to justify the huge health risks, unless you're living out your own private Rocky or Creed in your head? And I love boxing. How many people would become expert jugglers if every time they juggled, they risked real brain damage or death?

That's fine if you want to think I'm just generalizing. I'm sure your experiences have led you to different conclusions. I haven't gone to every school out there but I've been to a few and for more than a couple classes. And each one had a mentality associated with it. Something you'd never find with juggling or stamp collection or some other hobby that people are less likely to get their identity wrapped up with.


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## Bill Mattocks

So why are you here?


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## Gerry Seymour

Rick Franklin said:


> The BJJ place I tried was always so serious. God forbid you crack a joke in the middle of a roll. Everyone was so concentrated on being a bad-*** (or on winning?). So resplendent with the victory of BJJ over all other martial arts (at least in their minds). There was no appreciation of the basic absurdity of putting on Asian pajamas to roll around on the floor with other sweaty men and try to choke them. It took all the fun out of it.
> 
> Boxing I think needs a whole lot more LARPing than most martial arts. I mean karate LARPing is pretty harmless. But with boxing you have to overcome the basic common sense of what you're doing to your brain to keep going at it. How else to justify the huge health risks, unless you're living out your own private Rocky or Creed in your head? And I love boxing. How many people would become expert jugglers if every time they juggled, they risked real brain damage or death?
> 
> That's fine if you want to think I'm just generalizing. I'm sure your experiences have led you to different conclusions. I haven't gone to every school out there but I've been to a few and for more than a couple classes. And each one had a mentality associated with it. Something you'd never find with juggling or stamp collection or some other hobby that people are less likely to get their identity wrapped up with.


So, to contrast the one BJJ place you mentioned, I saw a good sense of humor at the gym where Tony teaches. Heck, he's known for being slow and technical - practicing "Sloth Jiu-Jitsu" - and has a sloth on his gi. Some places are quite serious. Some are not.

Go to a serious "juggling school" (okay, probably clown school) and you'll probably find they're pretty intense, too. Same for dancing, and soccer, and tennis. The intensity and seriousness is a feature of a fairly common approach to developing skills in a certain way. It's not the only way, and you can find folks who are just having fun with tennis, soccer, and dancing, too.

I think a combination of serious and light is more common than not. Most MA seminars I've been to featured more than a few jokes (many of them quite bad), and folks laughing at their own screw-ups. Some schools are more formal, as are some instructors.


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## mrt2

Rick Franklin said:


> Actually I would disagree.* I think all martial arts suffer from it to some degree because of the large amount of identity that practitioners get from their art.* Boxers and MMA artists are more likely to get caught up in hyper-masculinity than in Eastern traditions but the end result is the same. There's a role to be played. There's a hierarchy to be maintained. The craft is elevated to something almost mysterious. I've seen it on the faces of karatekas, BJJ'ers and boxers alike. As if they're lost in the fantasies and fears that motivate them.
> 
> I wouldn't speculate on the content of your classes and I'm sure there are schools out there that manage to avoid this kind of thinking. But I'm still convinced that's the exception not the rule. Once you replace the martial art with juggling, a lot of the silliness becomes clear.


Every activity to some extent has a culture and ethos about it that, from the outside, looks ridiculous.  In this regard, Martial Arts is not all that different from, yoga, or body building, or endurance sports (running, cycling, swimming or triathlons).


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## Rick Franklin

Bill Mattocks said:


> So why are you here?



To defend the quitter. Even the guy who never shows up to class. In my mind those quitters are just as good, just as smart, and just as dedicated at the things that are important to them as you are. Any suggestion otherwise is just pretense. No one gets upset when someone gives up juggling for another hobby, but martial arts is rife with that kind of elitism. That's part of what drove me away and I felt compelled to share my opinion.


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## Gerry Seymour

Rick Franklin said:


> To defend the quitter. Even the guy who never shows up to class. In my mind those quitters are just as good, just as smart, and just as dedicated at the things that are important to them as you are. Any suggestion otherwise is just pretense. No one gets upset when someone gives up juggling for another hobby, but martial arts is rife with that kind of elitism. That's part of what drove me away and I felt compelled to share my opinion.


I think you might have missed the point of the OP. Most of us have some very good friends who used to train with us. We don't think less of them because they don't want to do what we want to do.


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## Buka

Rick Franklin said:


> The BJJ place I tried was always so serious. God forbid you crack a joke in the middle of a roll. Everyone was so concentrated on being a bad-*** (or on winning?). So resplendent with the victory of BJJ over all other martial arts (at least in their minds). There was no appreciation of the basic absurdity of putting on Asian pajamas to roll around on the floor with other sweaty men and try to choke them. It took all the fun out of it.
> 
> Boxing I think needs a whole lot more LARPing than most martial arts. I mean karate LARPing is pretty harmless. But with boxing you have to overcome the basic common sense of what you're doing to your brain to keep going at it. How else to justify the huge health risks, unless you're living out your own private Rocky or Creed in your head? And I love boxing. How many people would become expert jugglers if every time they juggled, they risked real brain damage or death?
> 
> That's fine if you want to think I'm just generalizing. I'm sure your experiences have led you to different conclusions. I haven't gone to every school out there but I've been to a few and for more than a couple classes. And each one had a mentality associated with it. Something you'd never find with juggling or stamp collection or some other hobby that people are less likely to get their identity wrapped up with.



The BJJ place I trained was so laid back, so low key cool - man, I wish it was still there. No pressures, no macho, just good old, low key rock and roll.

I boxed for many years. Fortunately, my eggs don't seem scrambled. But I can't see boxing for thirty years, at least not sparring.

Rick, how long did you train? Do you miss it?


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## Flying Crane

Rick Franklin said:


> I know this is an old post but I felt compelled to throw in my opinion about students quitting. I recently quit Tang Soo Do and probably martial arts in general so I sympathized more with the quitters than the stayers. In fact I read all the replies on here looking for a good rebuttal to the OP but not really getting it. Shotokan karate being fake is a popular complaint but really, the more hardcore martial arts still have lots of quitters. And for many of the same reasons as the traditional ones.
> For me, I thought about the mental gymnastics people have to go through to do a traditional martial art. All the pretense they have to accept and not question. It's very much like a religion. Karatekas may not share beliefs about the cosmos but their beliefs about who they are and what they're doing is just as religious as any priest or monk. You could see it dripping off every word in the OP, a smugness about what he had accomplished and a gentle head-shake over what those hapless new students were missing out on when they quit. He was living out a story in his head.
> So I tried to think of a past-time that didn't have all this baggage of identity surrounding it. But something that you might do for fun and might get better at the more you do it. Something like, say, juggling. No one becomes a great juggler in order to feel more manly or in order to feel safer walking down dark streets at night. I doubt many jugglers identify themselves as A JUGGLER right up there with being A SON and A FATHER and A HUSBAND, or any of the other big "roles" out there that people get their identity tied up with.
> Let's say you thought juggling looked like fun and you wanted to try it out. But in order to really learn to juggle (as opposed to mimicking YouTube videos and reading books which we all know isn't the REAL juggling), you had to join a society of LARPers. Let's call them the French Aristocracy. They pretend that they're the royal court of Louis the XIV, the Sun King.
> To learn to juggle, you must wear period-appropriate clothing including a wig and pantaloons. You start out as a lowly courtier and must bow before the actual royalty. The instructor is your Sun King and deserves commensurate praise. If you keep juggling, working hard at your craft, you might be promoted to a viceroy or duke. And then you can be really proud of what you accomplished.
> Maybe you see all this silliness and you think, hey I really do like to juggle and this is the best way to learn, so you swallow your pride and you learn all those French customs of 17th century aristocracy and you try to focus on enjoying the actual craft of juggling.
> There's no breaking character with the French Aristocracy. You can't just chat it up with a Duke like he's a regular guy or help him with a juggling technique if you see him struggling to keep five balls in the air. You can't tell the Sun King his wig looks ridiculous. When you run into one of the viceroys outside of juggling practice, maybe you are sure to tell him how much fun it is and how much you're learning but you definitely don't say how much the French Aristocracy is a drag and you'd rather just juggle.
> Even if you stick it out for years, and maybe you do get a little thrill when you get promoted to duke, still there's that side of you that knows it's all pretentious nonsense. A constant cognitive dissonance between the real you (who buys groceries and cleans up cat poop and wants to sleep in on Saturdays) and the "aristocratic" you whom you have to become to keep juggling. And you do like to juggle.
> Then you get injured. Let's say your juggling bowling balls and one falls on your foot. So you can't go to the meetings of the French Aristocracy for some time. Part of you is relieved. It's a lot of work to keep yourself performing like that. Like holding your breath underwater. Your injury improves in time and you think about going back to juggling but there's that hesitation. You know you can't break character once you get back on the bandwagon. And it's so nice to just be you when you're not there. But the juggling is fun! But damn that wig is stuffy. Your head is sweating like the whole time.
> Looking at martial arts like this, the real question seems to be why doesn't everyone quit?
> I guess there will always be those people who grew up on movies about the French Aristocracy. Who wanted to be Louis the XIV or Marie Antoinette when they were young. For them, the thrill of putting on that wig and those pantaloons, it takes them out of the mundanity of their daily life. And it's worth doing it for as long as they can, reveling in each French phrase, giving the royal curtsy to exactly the right depth. Looking at the unwashed masses and thinking, that guy has no idea what it feels like to be a duke or to juggle a bowling ball and a tennis ball at the same time. There's a pride in that.
> There will also be the people who love juggling so much that they decide it's worth dealing with all LARPing. Because juggling is just so much damn fun. They'll wear whatever wig they have to if it lets them keep juggling into a ripe old age. Maybe some of them decide to just juggle on their own. Set up a juggle room in their basement. Then they never have to wear a wig or utter a French phrase again. They can still enjoy juggling, but it's not quite the same without all their friends to juggle with. But hey, it's something.


Your experience is very different from mine.


----------



## mrt2

Rick Franklin said:


> *To defend the quitter*. Even the guy who never shows up to class. In my mind those quitters are just as good, just as smart, and just as dedicated at the things that are important to them as you are. Any suggestion otherwise is just pretense. No one gets upset when someone gives up juggling for another hobby, but martial arts is rife with that kind of elitism. That's part of what drove me away and I felt compelled to share my opinion.


It is absolutely fine to quit.  I would urge you to read my post from last year.  It is a few pages back at post 97.  I quit martial arts 36 years ago and came back last year.  And since that time, I have seen people quit.at my current school.  I can't judge if someone quits because they have too many other work or family commitments, or because they have health problems, or for some other reason.

That said, yours is less a defense of quitters and more an attack on martial arts.   But as I said a few posts up, every activity has an ethos, a culture, and a uniform.  Show up at a bicycle road race, or even a serious club ride wearing a baseball cap and cutoff denim shorts, and you will feel ridiculous.  Or, for that matter, at a tennis match.  Or a golf match.


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## Tony Dismukes

Rick Franklin said:


> The BJJ place I tried was always so serious. God forbid you crack a joke in the middle of a roll.





Rick Franklin said:


> Everyone was so concentrated on being a bad-*** (or on winning?). So resplendent with the victory of BJJ over all other martial arts (at least in their minds). There was no appreciation of the basic absurdity of putting on Asian pajamas to roll around on the floor with other sweaty men and try to choke them. It took all the fun out of it.



I've seen places like that. Don't think I'd want to train at one long term. I enjoy being able to have a sense of humor about what I'm doing and I think most of my training partners do also.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Rick Franklin said:


> To defend the quitter. Even the guy who never shows up to class. In my mind those quitters are just as good, just as smart, and just as dedicated at the things that are important to them as you are. Any suggestion otherwise is just pretense. No one gets upset when someone gives up juggling for another hobby, but martial arts is rife with that kind of elitism. That's part of what drove me away and I felt compelled to share my opinion.



Ok, thank you. Goodbye.


----------



## Flying Crane

Rick Franklin said:


> To defend the quitter. Even the guy who never shows up to class. In my mind those quitters are just as good, just as smart, and just as dedicated at the things that are important to them as you are. Any suggestion otherwise is just pretense. No one gets upset when someone gives up juggling for another hobby, but martial arts is rife with that kind of elitism. That's part of what drove me away and I felt compelled to share my opinion.


Nobody is upset.  I have always said, martial arts are not for everyone.  That is not a criticism.  Everyone needs to find the things in life that are important to them.  Martial arts is not that thing, for most people.


----------



## Rick Franklin

gpseymour said:


> So, to contrast the one BJJ place you mentioned, I saw a good sense of humor at the gym where Tony teaches. Heck, he's known for being slow and technical - practicing "Sloth Jiu-Jitsu" - and has a sloth on his gi. Some places are quite serious. Some are not.
> 
> Go to a serious "juggling school" (okay, probably clown school) and you'll probably find they're pretty intense, too. Same for dancing, and soccer, and tennis. The intensity and seriousness is a feature of a fairly common approach to developing skills in a certain way. It's not the only way, and you can find folks who are just having fun with tennis, soccer, and dancing, too.
> 
> I think a combination of serious and light is more common than not. Most MA seminars I've been to featured more than a few jokes (many of them quite bad), and folks laughing at their own screw-ups. Some schools are more formal, as are some instructors.



I can take intensity, but I need an emphasis on fun--otherwise what's the point? 

Maybe my experience would be different if I had tried a different school. But you have to admit that there's a different culture with MMA at least. Read some of the posts on Sherdog or any other MMA forum. The constant flame wars between MMA and TMA where people talk past each other, completely missing the other persons point. Each side is stuck in their paradigm and can't see past it. Maybe you've seen some of those motivation images that show a bunch of overweight/old TMA black belts and compare them to young, ripped, BJJ black belts saying, "Now THESE are black belts"? It's not exactly uncommon.

I worked with a guy who took MMA and he was pretty dismissive of my karate when I never tried to say it was any better than his sport of choice. It was like a football player getting upset that someone else plays soccer. Just crazy. Now I know karate has it's issues and I'd never deny that but there were things I liked about it. Things that had value to me. But I'm not going to tell someone else what they're doing has no value, that they need to "convert".

As for the machismo, you've got these superstars like Conor McGregor giving the sport a bad name. Michael Venom Page brags about breaking some guys orbital bone. See how Ronda Rousey got trashed after her loss to Holly Holm like she was nothing, because she was capable of losing. Lots of attitude you wouldn't see in the TMA side. Sure you've got humble guys too, I'm not say there aren't any, just that there's a culture there that a lot of guys buy into. 

And this all just goes to my argument that there's a lot of baggage that goes with the juggling even on the MMA side.


----------



## Rick Franklin

Buka said:


> The BJJ place I trained was so laid back, so low key cool - man, I wish it was still there. No pressures, no macho, just good old, low key rock and roll.
> 
> I boxed for many years. Fortunately, my eggs don't seem scrambled. But I can't see boxing for thirty years, at least not sparring.
> 
> Rick, how long did you train? Do you miss it?



Sounds like you had a good BJJ school. I guess they're out there.

I was close to black belt when I left karate last year, mostly due to chronic lower back pain. Some combination of high kicks and risky core exercises I guess but I couldn't manage it. Still, it was time. I was reaching the point of diminishing returns. Karate was the only martial art I stuck with for more than a couple years. Besides that I've taken tai chi, kung fu, tae kwon do, kendo, BJJ, and fitness boxing at various times. Honestly the BJJ only lasted a couple months so I fully admit my experience there was limited.

I definitely miss it. The drills were fun. Trying to get that perfect spinning hook kick down or a good hook-round kick combo. The sparring was my favorite. Always a challenge. I don't know how many nights I lay in bed hyped up on adrenaline going over combos and fakes in my mind, holes in my game. The self-defense techniques were interesting, if not too practical. Can't say I got much from the kata. Really, I think I'm still in mourning over a hobby that used to mean so much to me.

I got into boxing too late in life. At 43, I can't see sparring so I have to make do with combos on the heavy bag, learning tricks on the speed bag and watching fights on DAZN. I can work on my technique but I can't test it. Maybe if I were in my 20s again I might be able to ignore all the data about concussions and head trauma. But not anymore. Seems like your 40s are a time of stripping away illusions.

I suppose I'd try a martial art again if I could find one without any pretense, huge egos, fear-mongering, Orientalism, cultism, fraud, favoritism, long-term health problems and all the other issues that tend to plague them. But I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## Flying Crane

Rick Franklin said:


> Sounds like you had a good BJJ school. I guess they're out there.
> 
> I was close to black belt when I left karate last year, mostly due to chronic lower back pain. Some combination of high kicks and risky core exercises I guess but I couldn't manage it. Still, it was time. I was reaching the point of diminishing returns. Karate was the only martial art I stuck with for more than a couple years. Besides that I've taken tai chi, kung fu, tae kwon do, kendo, BJJ, and fitness boxing at various times. Honestly the BJJ only lasted a couple months so I fully admit my experience there was limited.
> 
> I definitely miss it. The drills were fun. Trying to get that perfect spinning hook kick down or a good hook-round kick combo. The sparring was my favorite. Always a challenge. I don't know how many nights I lay in bed hyped up on adrenaline going over combos and fakes in my mind, holes in my game. The self-defense techniques were interesting, if not too practical. Can't say I got much from the kata. Really, I think I'm still in mourning over a hobby that used to mean so much to me.
> 
> I got into boxing too late in life. At 43, I can't see sparring so I have to make do with combos on the heavy bag, learning tricks on the speed bag and watching fights on DAZN. I can work on my technique but I can't test it. Maybe if I were in my 20s again I might be able to ignore all the data about concussions and head trauma. But not anymore. Seems like your 40s are a time of stripping away illusions.


Martial arts may not be for you, or perhaps you have simply lost interest.  We each find our own path in life.



> I suppose I'd try a martial art again if I could find one without any pretense, huge egos, fear-mongering, Orientalism, cultism, fraud, favoritism, long-term health problems and all the other issues that tend to plague them. But I'm not holding my breath.


Again, it sounds like your experience was vastly different from mine.  What you describe above, I has not been part of the schools in which I’ve trained.


----------



## Rick Franklin

Flying Crane said:


> Nobody is upset.  I have always said, martial arts are not for everyone.  That is not a criticism.  Everyone needs to find the things in life that are important to them.  Martial arts is not that thing, for most people.



Really, you've never know anyone in the martial arts community to get inordinately upset about someone leaving the fold? I've seen it happen multiple times with multiple schools. I remember so clearly running into a friend from kung fu after I quit it in high school. It was a couple years later. He was all friendly with me until I said I was considering going back and then he got all angry and stormed off with a "Yeah, sure you were!" as though I had insulted him. It was unreal. I hadn't realized how much of an "us vs them" the school had been and I clearly was a "them" now. That's just one instance. Seemed like the norm to me. 

Even the BJJ school I tried. My back was acting up after a hard roll so I took some time off. Only a week or so. When I came back, the instructor gave me a long look like he was saying, "What the hell are you doing back here?" Shoot, that guy never liked me. I clearly never go into the "us" category there.


----------



## Flying Crane

Rick Franklin said:


> Really, you've never know anyone in the martial arts community to get inordinately upset about someone leaving the fold? I've seen it happen multiple times with multiple schools. I remember so clearly running into a friend from kung fu after I quit it in high school. It was a couple years later. He was all friendly with me until I said I was considering going back and then he got all angry and stormed off with a "Yeah, sure you were!" as though I had insulted him. It was unreal. I hadn't realized how much of an "us vs them" the school had been and I clearly was a "them" now. That's just one instance. Seemed like the norm to me.
> 
> Even the BJJ school I tried. My back was acting up after a hard roll so I took some time off. Only a week or so. When I came back, the instructor gave me a long look like he was saying, "What the hell are you doing back here?" Shoot, that guy never liked me. I clearly never go into the "us" category there.


No, I have not experienced that.


----------



## mrt2

Rick Franklin said:


> Really, you've never know anyone in the martial arts community to get inordinately upset about someone leaving the fold? I've seen it happen multiple times with multiple schools. I remember so clearly running into a friend from kung fu after I quit it in high school. It was a couple years later. He was all friendly with me until I said I was considering going back and then he got all angry and stormed off with a "Yeah, sure you were!" as though I had insulted him. It was unreal.* I hadn't realized how much of an "us vs them" the school had been and I clearly was a "them" now. That's just one instance. Seemed like the norm to me*.
> 
> Even the BJJ school I tried. My back was acting up after a hard roll so I took some time off. Only a week or so. When I came back, the instructor gave me a long look like he was saying, "What the hell are you doing back here?" Shoot, that guy never liked me. I clearly never go into the "us" category there.


Funny you say that.  I am 53 so I have tried since I came back to cultivate a friendship with the older guys and women, if for no other reason than to get training tips on how to keep up with the younger folks.  Anyhow , there is a guy a few years younger than me, but at the time I started, he was still a lower rank.  I think when I started last winter as a white belt, he was a high yellow belt.  So as beginners, we often lined up together and worked on the same stuff.  Because I came to TKD with some previous experience, I picked up on things quicker than him and by last summer, I caught up to him and into the fall, we were both green belts, so again, both older guys, working on the same curriculum, often got put together as sparring partners, etc... Than he got injured sparring one night and was not able to train for a couple of months, and I advanced ahead of him.  I reached out to him in December asking him about his recovery, and he responded, saying he was more energized to get back to things, and we even got together between Christmas and New Years to practice some.  He told me his motto for the new year was "black belt or bust".  In other words, he was going to put in the time and step up his training so that he could test for black belt in a year to 18 months.  I told him that was my goal as well and we should coordinate our schedules to do more training together.  Then I don't see or hear from the guy for a couple of weeks, so I send him an email.  He told me he changed his mind and instead of committing himself to MA, he was leaving the school.

OK, so I am not judging anyone.  He had his reasons.  But fast forward to this week.  He shows up at the school, probably to watch his son train.  Now,give the guy a little wave on my way into class.  After class, I think maybe we can chat a bit and catch up.  Nope.  As soon as his son steps off the mats, this guy hustles the son out of there and takes off.  

Clearly, he no longer feels like he is one of us, and I think he is the one who doesn't want to deal with it.


----------



## Bruce7

I train hard for 8 years and learn a great deal from my first 2 teachers.
When I got out of the Navy, I had train in varies average schools and my art had not improved over the course of those 4 years.
I never cared if the teacher liked or disliked me or if I wore a white belt or a black belt, I only cared if he could improve my ability.
I had an expectation that black belts should be able to fight and perform forms better than me.
Excuses I used for quitting were lack of money and time.
The main reason I quit MA in 1985, I was tired of being taught by 2 year black belts wonders.


----------



## Bruce7

mrt2 said:


> Funny you say that.  I am 53 so I have tried since I came back to cultivate a friendship with the older guys and women, if for no other reason than to get training tips on how to keep up with the younger folks.  Anyhow , there is a guy a few years younger than me, but at the time I started, he was still a lower rank.  I think when I started last winter as a white belt, he was a high yellow belt.  So as beginners, we often lined up together and worked on the same stuff.  Because I came to TKD with some previous experience, I picked up on things quicker than him and by last summer, I caught up to him and into the fall, we were both green belts, so again, both older guys, working on the same curriculum, often got put together as sparring partners, etc... Than he got injured sparring one night and was not able to train for a couple of months, and I advanced ahead of him.  I reached out to him in December asking him about his recovery, and he responded, saying he was more energized to get back to things, and we even got together between Christmas and New Years to practice some.  He told me his motto for the new year was "black belt or bust".  In other words, he was going to put in the time and step up his training so that he could test for black belt in a year to 18 months.  I told him that was my goal as well and we should coordinate our schedules to do more training together.  Then I don't see or hear from the guy for a couple of weeks, so I send him an email.  He told me he changed his mind and instead of committing himself to MA, he was leaving the school.
> 
> OK, so I am not judging anyone.  He had his reasons.  But fast forward to this week.  He shows up at the school, probably to watch his son train.  Now,give the guy a little wave on my way into class.  After class, I think maybe we can chat a bit and catch up.  Nope.  As soon as his son steps off the mats, this guy hustles the son out of there and takes off.
> 
> Clearly, he no longer feels like he is one of us, and I think he is the one who doesn't want to deal with it.



Excellent post.

Mr. Jordan is an excellent teacher and has an excellent program for kids.
He is an 8th dan in Tiger Rock system. He understood why I was not happy with the system.
One of Mr. Jordan's teachers is a 4th dan Black Belt at 18 and only knows there progressive form.
I expect a black belt to know 18 forms as a minimum. 
Jack Hwang in his 40's was only a 5th dan black belt, when he was my teacher back in the 70's.

Mr. Jordan understand why I wanted to quit and did not charge me the extra month he was due.
He also said I was welcome to watch my grandchildren.
Even though I was welcome I felt uncomfortable,  that's my fault for feeling that way.
Your friend is probably just a little embarrassed, he did not stay with the program. 
He probably still likes you, if not that's on him.


----------



## Tez3

Rick Franklin said:


> Read some of the posts on Sherdog or any other MMA forum


that says far more about the site and the posters than MMA.





Rick Franklin said:


> As for the machismo, you've got these superstars like Conor McGregor giving the sport a bad name. Michael Venom Page brags about breaking some guys orbital bone. See how Ronda Rousey got trashed after her loss to Holly Holm like she was nothing, because she was capable of losing.



Actually that's not MMA, that's hype and publicity designed purely to sell seats and merchandise. You have to differentiate between the needs of the business and the sport.







Rick Franklin said:


> Really, you've never know anyone in the martial arts community to get inordinately upset about someone leaving the fold?



No, I haven't. I did have two students who didn't come back from Afghanistan, that upset us badly, still does but people actually leaving no.


Just a thought here, have you considered that the problem might be you rather than ALL the many martial arts places you've been to, after there seems to be a common thread running through this.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Rick Franklin said:


> I can take intensity, but I need an emphasis on fun--otherwise what's the point?


That't the point - it should be fun. Different people enjoy different things. I'm like you - if it's too serious, I'm going to lose interest eventually. But some folks love the deep, intense seriousness you see at other schools. It works for them, like laughter works for me.



> Maybe my experience would be different if I had tried a different school. But you have to admit that there's a different culture with MMA at least. Read some of the posts on Sherdog or any other MMA forum. The constant flame wars between MMA and TMA where people talk past each other, completely missing the other persons point. Each side is stuck in their paradigm and can't see past it. Maybe you've seen some of those motivation images that show a bunch of overweight/old TMA black belts and compare them to young, ripped, BJJ black belts saying, "Now THESE are black belts"? It's not exactly uncommon.


I think you'll find there's a culture to most forums (fora?). The MMA folks here don't tend to have the same blinders about the difference between a 50-year-old hobbyist and a 30-something professional athlete. Sure, there are some who show up who have a cocky attitude, but that's true of any segment of MA (so isn't unique to MMA).



> I worked with a guy who took MMA and he was pretty dismissive of my karate when I never tried to say it was any better than his sport of choice. It was like a football player getting upset that someone else plays soccer. Just crazy. Now I know karate has it's issues and I'd never deny that but there were things I liked about it. Things that had value to me. But I'm not going to tell someone else what they're doing has no value, that they need to "convert".


Yeah, you'll find folks like that in other areas of MA. Usually, it's whatever's in its ascendency (right now, that's MMA) that gets the most of them.



> As for the machismo, you've got these superstars like Conor McGregor giving the sport a bad name. Michael Venom Page brags about breaking some guys orbital bone. See how Ronda Rousey got trashed after her loss to Holly Holm like she was nothing, because she was capable of losing. Lots of attitude you wouldn't see in the TMA side. Sure you've got humble guys too, I'm not say there aren't any, just that there's a culture there that a lot of guys buy into.
> 
> And this all just goes to my argument that there's a lot of baggage that goes with the juggling even on the MMA side.


I think you'll find that same machismo in any heavy-contact sport. It's in football, for sure. Certain kinds of folks are more drawn to certain activities. Just don't let it cause you to paint them all with that brush. Some of the MMA guys in here are pretty down-to-earth, even if they're always wrong about everything.


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> Some of the MMA guys in here are pretty down-to-earth, even if they're always wrong about everything.




I'm glad you think I'm always right about MMA seeing as you think the guys are wrong!


----------



## Headhunter

Rick Franklin said:


> Actually I would disagree. I think all martial arts suffer from it to some degree because of the large amount of identity that practitioners get from their art. Boxers and MMA artists are more likely to get caught up in hyper-masculinity than in Eastern traditions but the end result is the same. There's a role to be played. There's a hierarchy to be maintained. The craft is elevated to something almost mysterious. I've seen it on the faces of karatekas, BJJ'ers and boxers alike. As if they're lost in the fantasies and fears that motivate them.
> 
> I wouldn't speculate on the content of your classes and I'm sure there are schools out there that manage to avoid this kind of thinking. But I'm still convinced that's the exception not the rule. Once you replace the martial art with juggling, a lot of the silliness becomes clear.


Well you're wrong. Some do yes but most don't at all. I've taken time out of a few places and when I come back maybe there's either a light hearted joke made or nothing's said.

Sounds like you're just bitter about something


----------



## mrt2

Bruce7 said:


> Excellent post.
> 
> Mr. Jordan is an excellent teacher and has an excellent program for kids.
> He is an 8th dan in Tiger Rock system. He understood why I was not happy with the system.
> One of Mr. Jordan's teachers is a 4th dan Black Belt at 18 and only knows there progressive form.
> I expect a black belt to know 18 forms as a minimum.
> Jack Hwang in his 40's was only a 5th dan black belt, when he was my teacher back in the 70's.
> 
> Mr. Jordan understand why I wanted to quit and did not charge me the extra month he was due.
> He also said I was welcome to watch my grandchildren.
> Even though I was welcome I felt uncomfortable,  that's my fault for feeling that way.
> Y*our friend is probably just a little embarrassed, he did not stay with the program.
> He probably still likes you,* if not that's on him.


One of the secondary benefits of martial arts training is the social aspect of it.  People of different ages, professions, and walks of life all training together 2, or 3 times a week.  But a lot of times, the basis for the friendship is the training, and when that is gone, probably not much to talk about, sadly.


----------



## Headhunter

Rick Franklin said:


> The BJJ place I tried was always so serious. God forbid you crack a joke in the middle of a roll. Everyone was so concentrated on being a bad-*** (or on winning?). So resplendent with the victory of BJJ over all other martial arts (at least in their minds). There was no appreciation of the basic absurdity of putting on Asian pajamas to roll around on the floor with other sweaty men and try to choke them. It took all the fun out of it.
> 
> Boxing I think needs a whole lot more LARPing than most martial arts. I mean karate LARPing is pretty harmless. But with boxing you have to overcome the basic common sense of what you're doing to your brain to keep going at it. How else to justify the huge health risks, unless you're living out your own private Rocky or Creed in your head? And I love boxing. How many people would become expert jugglers if every time they juggled, they risked real brain damage or death?
> 
> That's fine if you want to think I'm just generalizing. I'm sure your experiences have led you to different conclusions. I haven't gone to every school out there but I've been to a few and for more than a couple classes. And each one had a mentality associated with it. Something you'd never find with juggling or stamp collection or some other hobby that people are less likely to get their identity wrapped up with.


Well sorry but some people do want to train seriously. If these guys are training for a competition they do want to focus on training not acting like clowns. When I'm rolling in bjj I'm focused on the roll because 1 I want to get better and 2 I'm focused on stopping a guy choking me out or putting me in a submission so yeah I'm not cracking jokes while trying to defend against submissions. But in drills yeah you can have a joke sometimes but rolling no that's the time to work


----------



## Deleted member 39746

Rick Franklin said:


> Boxing I think needs a whole lot more LARPing than most martial arts. I mean karate LARPing is pretty harmless. But with boxing you have to overcome the basic common sense of what you're doing to your brain to keep going at it. How else to justify the huge health risks, unless you're living out your own private Rocky or Creed in your head? And I love boxing. How many people would become expert jugglers if every time they juggled, they risked real brain damage or death?
> .



Perfect paraphrase of a quote from someone i saw about fighting.      Fighting aint worth it unless your getting paid. Basically, no point in sparring full contact unless you are getting paid for it. 

And you kind of risk brain damage when juggling pending what you  juggle as it can land on your head if you mess up.


----------



## Leviathan

Headhunter said:


> Well you're wrong. Some do yes but most don't at all. I've taken time out of a few places and when I come back maybe there's either a light hearted joke made or nothing's said.
> 
> Sounds like you're just bitter about something



Hi, 

I can relate to Rick Franklin's in a way.

I see 2 main reasons for that:

- while tennis, basket ball, soccer etc. are definitely games confined to a playing field, martial arts aim at making you a better fighter and helping you out on the street kicking the bad guy's *** if need be. Since many action movies and series heroes are usually good at kicking bad guys' ***, you can connect the dots yourself and understand there may be a tendency for some MA practitioners to view themselves as the star / hero. Sounds ridiculous? They'll publicly say "yes" but - as a result of a life long conditioning - may think otherwise into themselves. 

- yes there definitely is a hierarchy in many martial arts: ever heard of belts with all their colors? The order you line up for bowing at the beginning and the end of the training... To some extent it's ok to organize the whole stuff. But a belt shouldn't be taken for more than what it is. 

Kind regards


----------



## Tez3

Leviathan said:


> Sounds ridiculous? They'll publicly say "yes" but - as a result of a life long conditioning - may think otherwise into themselves.




Good grief no, we're British, we don't go around yelling about how good we are. We make jokes and self deprecating comments about ourselves. Macho lifestyle and being British doesn't go together though certain Scots may try a few growls now and again.
and before anyone says it Conor Mcgregor is not British he's Irish, from the south an entirely different country.


----------



## Headhunter

Leviathan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I can relate to Rick Franklin's in a way.
> 
> I see 2 main reasons for that:
> 
> - while tennis, basket ball, soccer etc. are definitely games confined to a playing field, martial arts aim at making you a better fighter and helping you out on the street kicking the bad guy's *** if need be. Since many action movies and series heroes are usually good at kicking bad guys' ***, you can connect the dots yourself and understand there may be a tendency for some MA practitioners to view themselves as the star / hero. Sounds ridiculous? They'll publicly say "yes" but - as a result of a life long conditioning - may think otherwise into themselves.
> 
> - yes there definitely is a hierarchy in many martial arts: ever heard of belts with all their colors? The order you line up for bowing at the beginning and the end of the training... To some extent it's ok to organize the whole stuff. But a belt shouldn't be taken for more than what it is.
> 
> Kind regards


Lol what a load of nonsense. First no martial arts goal isn't all about making you a fighter. Some styles like boxing and Mma yes but others like karate, taekwondo, Krav Maga etc it isn't about that it's about defending yourself and other styles are more internal and second you say about other sports like football etc. Well they have hierarchy to. They have captains and managers and coaches and different leagues that they play in. 

Have I ever heard of belt ranks?....umm yeah I think everyone knows about belts in martial arts....the belts are for the teachers to know what level the students are at and its a way to break up the ciriculum and yeah some places are arrogant about but they're the exception not the rule most places are totally fine and relaxed


----------



## mrt2

Leviathan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I can relate to Rick Franklin's in a way.
> 
> I see 2 main reasons for that:
> 
> - while tennis, basket ball, soccer etc. are definitely games confined to a playing field, martial arts aim at making you a better fighter and helping you out on the street kicking the bad guy's *** if need be. Since many action movies and series heroes are usually good at kicking bad guys' ***, you can connect the dots yourself and understand there may be a tendency for some MA practitioners to view themselves as the star / hero. *Sounds ridiculous? *They'll publicly say "yes" but - as a result of a life long conditioning - may think otherwise into themselves.
> 
> - yes there definitely is a hierarchy in many martial arts: ever heard of belts with all their colors? The order you line up for bowing at the beginning and the end of the training... To some extent it's ok to organize the whole stuff. But a belt shouldn't be taken for more than what it is.
> 
> Kind regards


Yes, sounds ridiculous.  Practicing sparring while wearing head gear, chest protectors and shin and instep guards against your class mates is a heck of a lot different from a street fight.  Moreover, movie fights are fake and I would wager anybody with more than a few months experience of sparring could see that and would be more careful engaging "bad guys" in the street.


----------



## Tez3

Headhunter said:


> First no martial arts goal isn't all about making you a fighter. Some styles like boxing and Mma yes




Arguably you could say that boxing and MMA makes you a competitor as much as anything, fighting just happens to be the way you compete.


----------



## Rick Franklin

mrt2 said:


> Yes, sounds ridiculous.  Practicing sparring while wearing head gear, chest protectors and shin and instep guards against your class mates is a heck of a lot different from a street fight.  Moreover, movie fights are fake and I would wager anybody with more than a few months experience of sparring could see that and would be more careful engaging "bad guys" in the street.



I definitely agree there's a huge difference between sparring and street fights. No argument there. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it doesn't make much sense to study martial arts for self defense. I don't expect many people here to agree with me, but here's my reasoning.

First of all, it's incredibly unlikely for most people to get violently attacked in their daily lives. If it's some drunk fool, you don't need much more than a good cross punch and a little sparring experience, right? Certainly not years of training. The reality is, if you're attacked it's probably someone who is stacking the cards in their favor. They're not looking for a fair fight. They either have a knife, or a gun, or a bunch of friends, or 50 pounds of muscle more than you. In any of those cases, you're better off giving them your wallet and/or running for you life. If I were seriously worried about being attacked on the street, I should get a gun, learn how to shoot it and get a license to carry it on my person.

To me, the only reason to practice a martial art is because it's fun.


----------



## Rick Franklin

Rat said:


> And you kind of risk brain damage when juggling pending what you  juggle as it can land on your head if you mess up.



Touche.


----------



## Headhunter

Rick Franklin said:


> I definitely agree there's a huge difference between sparring and street fights. No argument there. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it doesn't make much sense to study martial arts for self defense. I don't expect many people here to agree with me, but here's my reasoning.
> 
> First of all, it's incredibly unlikely for most people to get violently attacked in their daily lives. If it's some drunk fool, you don't need much more than a good cross punch and a little sparring experience, right? Certainly not years of training. The reality is, if you're attacked it's probably someone who is stacking the cards in their favor. They're not looking for a fair fight. They either have a knife, or a gun, or a bunch of friends, or 50 pounds of muscle more than you. In any of those cases, you're better off giving them your wallet and/or running for you life. If I were seriously worried about being attacked on the street, I should get a gun, learn how to shoot it and get a license to carry it on my person.
> 
> To me, the only reason to practice a martial art is because it's fun.


Yeah you're right I don't agree at all. So you're saying that someone who trains on a regular basic punches, kicks, takedowns, submissions or whatever is going to be at the same level in a street fight as some fat guy who sits on the couch all day? 

To me from your posts you sound extremely bitter about martial arts for some reason


----------



## Rick Franklin

gpseymour said:


> I think you'll find that same machismo in any heavy-contact sport. It's in football, for sure. Certain kinds of folks are more drawn to certain activities. Just don't let it cause you to paint them all with that brush. Some of the MMA guys in here are pretty down-to-earth, even if they're always wrong about everything.



That's reasonable. No, I wouldn't assume all MMA guys are like that.


----------



## Rick Franklin

Headhunter said:


> Yeah you're right I don't agree at all. So you're saying that someone who trains on a regular basic punches, kicks, takedowns, submissions or whatever is going to be at the same level in a street fight as some fat guy who sits on the couch all day?



I'm saying the concept of a street fight is a myth and to assume you're ever getting into a street fight, in the conventional sense, is dangerous. It ignores the very real possibility that guy can pull a knife while you're trying to choke him out. Or he can pull out a gun and shoot you after you knock him down. Or maybe you'll be beating him to a pulp when his friends show up. Being in great shape and a great martial artist doesn't help you with those situations. It's not worth putting your life on the line. Ever.


----------



## Rick Franklin

Headhunter said:


> To me from your posts you sound extremely bitter about martial arts for some reason



I like martial arts, I just don't like all the baggage that it can come with.


----------



## Tez3

Rick Franklin said:


> I'm saying the concept of a street fight is a myth and to assume you're ever getting into a street fight, in the conventional sense, is dangerous. It ignores the very real possibility that guy can pull a knife while you're trying to choke him out. Or he can pull out a gun and shoot you after you knock him down. Or maybe you'll be beating him to a pulp when his friends show up. Being in great shape and a great martial artist doesn't help you with those situations. It's not worth putting your life on the line. Ever.




I'm not sure that you understand what fights are like outside of a training environment, how easily they can start between people especially when alcohol is involved. I've seen and broken up quite a few, not by myself but with colleagues. You seem to be basing your opinion on films and television programmes. Fights can be totally random, with most involved not setting out to fight. 




Rick Franklin said:


> I like martial arts, I just don't like all the baggage that it can come with.




As you seem to have so many problems in so many different places I'm thinking the one with the baggage is you not the places you've been training at.


----------



## Rick Franklin

Tez3 said:


> I'm not sure that you understand what fights are like outside of a training environment, how easily they can start between people especially when alcohol is involved. I've seen and broken up quite a few, not by myself but with colleagues. You seem to be basing your opinion on films and television programmes. Fights can be totally random, with most involved not setting out to fight. .



I've never been in a street fight. I don't know anyone who's been in a street fight (at least not that they told me). My opinion is based on footage I've seen of real fights, some statistics and news articles.

I'm sure you're heard about how easy it is for a single punch to kill someone. I think there was a young high school girl it happened to recently, scuffling with her classmates. I believe it was just a shove too and the girl who did it is getting charged as an adult. Once I saw police footage of a cop who was knocked over by a handcuffed perp. He knocked his head against the floor and was paralyzed for life. Martial arts wouldn't have helped him there. Maybe you saw the footage of that guy who was yelling at a motorist for parking in a handicapped spot when he was knocked to the floor by the driver's boyfriend. He pulled out a gun and shot the guy. Martial arts wouldn't have helped the boyfriend there.

There are lots of videos of "street fights" where one guy is winning until some random stranger in the crowd (or a friend of the loser) steps in and soccer kicks or sucker-punches the winner. Hard to be prepared for stuff like that. Locally I remember reading a news story of a couple hanging out a bar when a stranger smacks the girl's butt. The husband makes a scene but it turns out the stranger was a cop and was there with a bunch of buddies. They beat him to a pulp. I don't think martial arts would have helped him out.

Now, I'm sure for every instance I've listed here you could come up with several where two guys fought and no knives or guns or buddies showed up. I'm not debating that happens. My point is that it COULD go the other way and therefore, it's not worth it.



Tez3 said:


> As you seem to have so many problems in so many different places I'm thinking the one with the baggage is you not the places you've been training at.



I know personal attacks are a staple of internet discussions everywhere, but I hope you'll excuse me if I don't respond to yours.


----------



## Tez3

Rick Franklin said:


> I know personal attacks are a staple of internet discussions everywhere, but I hope you'll excuse me if I don't respond to yours.




That wasn't a 'personal attack' it was an observation made because of your seeming inability to not find something wrong with every place you have trained. Think about it, one of you, many martial arts places but it's never you who is the problem...…….. I'd suggest you don't go in with an empty cup.



Rick Franklin said:


> I've never been in a street fight. I don't know anyone who's been in a street fight (at least not that they told me). My opinion is based on footage I've seen of real fights, some statistics and news articles.



You are putting your theoretical knowledge up against peoples actual knowledge and experience, can you be surprised if you are incorrect? the footage you see of fights doesn't follow the fights from before they started, the monkey dance part so all you see is the stupid bit. 



Rick Franklin said:


> I'm sure you're heard about how easy it is for a single punch to kill someone.



Mate, I haven't 'heard' but I have had to take statements and deal with so called 'one punch' incidents. Only one died luckily. Trust me, I've seen and dealt with all sort of fights, I've walked nay run away from fights and I've picked up the pieces after fights. I used to work with people who loved a fight, who often had people pick on them just to start a fight and some who would fight among themselves just for the craic. 



Rick Franklin said:


> Martial arts wouldn't have helped him there




Really, what do you actually think we learn in martial arts? It's not all punching and kicking, we teach awareness as well as how to avoid being hit ( I always like that bit, most people do) and how to avoid altercations to start with.




Rick Franklin said:


> There are lots of videos of "street fights" where one guy is winning until some random stranger in the crowd (or a friend of the loser) steps in and soccer kicks or sucker-punches the winner.




And? that proves martial arts doesn't work does it? or does it prove there are  idiots who drink too much or who are just complete morons. Martial artists don't go around brawling which is basically what you are describing. The fights are rarely random and usually can be avoided by sensible people. Muggings and attacks are a completely different thing.




Rick Franklin said:


> The husband makes a scene



If he'd been a martial artist he would have assessed the situation, knowing that it was more than likely that man wasn't on his own and even if it makes him look like a coward he would have taken his wife out of the bar and away from there. Discretion is the better part of valour.




Rick Franklin said:


> Now, I'm sure for every instance I've listed here you could come up with several where two guys fought and no knives or guns or buddies showed up. I'm not debating that happens. My point is that it COULD go the other way and therefore, it's not worth it.




No I'm not, I'm going to say get some time in, stop watching fights on videos and get some real life experience, stop trying to tell experienced martial arts why you think they are wrong because while you are glued to a screen, we're training.


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## Rick Franklin

Tez3 said:


> That wasn't a 'personal attack' it was an observation made because of your seeming inability to not find something wrong with every place you have trained. Think about it, one of you, many martial arts places but it's never you who is the problem...…….. I'd suggest you don't go in with an empty cup.



Actually, it's the definition of a personal attack. Instead of providing evidence against my comments, you blame all my views on me personally. Here you go:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/personal_attack


----------



## Deleted member 39746

Rick Franklin said:


> He pulled out a gun and shot the guy. Martial arts wouldn't have helped the boyfriend there.



TECHNICALLY, the craft of marksmanship with firearms is a martial art.    I can get behind the sentiment though, weapons exist, takes a certain mindset and skill set to deal with them. (and they instantly put someone on a higher playing field than someone without it, which is why people carry them when lawfully allowed to for self defence)

And to be fair, he wouldn't have gotten shot if he didn't knock the person down and act in a threatening deminer past that. (i think i know the situation being cited and it was cleared as a lawful shooting, further i think the girlfriend instigated it)


I can get behind the sentiment that it takes some level of adjustment for modern martial arts to work in the real world though. As lets be fair, some of the nessisiary skills arent covered in standard practice.   And unless you are fighting a professional boxer you don't exactly need a high level of combative skill to deal with them.       

Some martial arts exist to be practiced for your life, like the common statement kung fu is for life.  Its not purely combative, some might be focused on the art part of martial art than the martial part, but the scope is to keep you healthy and fit as well a provide some martial training.        Now that i think about it, krav maga might have been altered to do a similar thing to kung fu just based on military style combatives, so you can practice it for a long period of time to keep healthy and such. (civilian version of course)  By all means some do things better than others.

this might just be a rehash of what other people have replied to this with, so apologies if so.  I also didnt read the original points before this fully, so TL;DR moment.


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## Rick Franklin

Tez3 said:


> Mate, I haven't 'heard' but I have had to take statements and deal with so called 'one punch' incidents. Only one died luckily. Trust me, I've seen and dealt with all sort of fights, I've walked nay run away from fights and I've picked up the pieces after fights. I used to work with people who loved a fight, who often had people pick on them just to start a fight and some who would fight among themselves just for the craic.



I didn't want to assume your level of experience but I also didn't want to belabor a point that seems pretty well known.




Tez3 said:


> Really, what do you actually think we learn in martial arts? It's not all punching and kicking, we teach awareness as well as how to avoid being hit ( I always like that bit, most people do) and how to avoid altercations to start with.



I know that's not all it is, I've trained it. One big eye opener for me was sparring against multiple opponents. Suddenly you realize that laser-focus you've developed in single-opponent sparring is a liability as you tend to ignore the other threats around you. It's a whole different ballgame. And multiple attackers is always a threat in real-life violence.



Tez3 said:


> And? that proves martial arts doesn't work does it? or does it prove there are  idiots who drink too much or who are just complete morons. Martial artists don't go around brawling which is basically what you are describing. The fights are rarely random and usually can be avoided by sensible people. Muggings and attacks are a completely different thing.



What it proves is that there are no rules. You can't go into a street fight assuming that the other guy is looking for a fair fight, to prove his mettle against a similarly weighed opponent. The other guy just wants to win whether he's swinging a sucker-punch or pulling a knife or hitting you from behind or whatever else he can do to make sure he comes out on top. No one (except maybe martial artists if you count competitions) goes into a fight he thinks he's going to lose, right? You're not going to pick a fight with the guy a foot taller than you and 50 pounds of muscle more than you have.

I tried to provide evidence from a lot of different kinds of real-life violence to illustrate my point. Not that martial arts doesn't work but that you can't depend on it because of all the ways real-life violence can spiral out of control. If some stranger challenges you, it's foolhardy to put up your dukes and start throwing punches. People die doing that. And that's why self-defense was never a motivation for me studying martial arts.



Tez3 said:


> If he'd been a martial artist he would have assessed the situation, knowing that it was more than likely that man wasn't on his own and even if it makes him look like a coward he would have taken his wife out of the bar and away from there. Discretion is the better part of valour.



This is my whole point. You don't need martial arts training for discretion. Just common sense.


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## Rick Franklin

Rat said:


> TECHNICALLY, the craft of marksmanship with firearms is a martial art.    I can get behind the sentiment though, weapons exist, takes a certain mindset and skill set to deal with them. (and they instantly put someone on a higher playing field than someone without it, which is why people carry them when lawfully allowed to for self defence)



Yeah, sure I guess it is a martial art. But you can probably get a gun, learn how to shoot it and get the necessary licenses without anywhere near the effort it takes to get competent at a martial art. In my mind, if you're worried about self-defense, that makes a lot more sense. When I took tang soo do, it wasn't to defend myself, it was because it was fun.



Rat said:


> And to be fair, he wouldn't have gotten shot if he didn't knock the person down and act in a threatening deminer past that. (i think i know the situation being cited and it was cleared as a lawful shooting, further i think the girlfriend instigated it)



Yeah, that's the incident and I agree completely he wouldn't have gotten shot. But that's the danger when you decide to start throwing your martial skills around. Better to back down, run away, call the police.



Rat said:


> I can get behind the sentiment that it takes some level of adjustment for modern martial arts to work in the real world though. As lets be fair, some of the nessisiary skills arent covered in standard practice.   And unless you are fighting a professional boxer you don't exactly need a high level of combative skill to deal with them.



Exactly. You don't need a high level of skill if it does come down to a one-on-one fight.


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## Tez3

Rick Franklin said:


> You* can't go into a street fight *assuming that the other guy is looking for a fair fight, to prove his mettle against a similarly weighed opponent.




I'll correct that, you don't go into a fight full stop. You really are watching too many films if you think anyone has fights like that. Do you know what so called 'street fights' are? They are football hooligans looking to smash the other team's supporters, they are drunks angry with the world, they are insecure men who need to act big, they are drunks, they are bullies. There are never people looking for fair fights.



Rick Franklin said:


> No one (except maybe martial artists if you count competitions) goes into a fight he thinks he's going to lose, right? You're not going to pick a fight with the guy a foot taller than you and 50 pounds of muscle more than you have.




You seem to think these are elective fights. And yes I've known people pick a fight with someone bigger and stronger than them, as I said alcohol makes idiots of people.




Rick Franklin said:


> If some stranger challenges you, it's foolhardy to put up your dukes and start throwing punches. People die doing that. And that's why self-defense was never a motivation for me studying martial arts.




If someone challenges you and you take them up on it, it is NOT self defence is it.


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## Grenadier

*Admin's Note:*

Ladies and gentlemen, 

If you don't like what a particular poster is saying, you are certainly welcome to use the "ignore this user" feature that's part of the Xenforo software.


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## Rick Franklin

Tez3 said:


> I'll correct that, you don't go into a fight full stop. You really are watching too many films if you think anyone has fights like that. Do you know what so called 'street fights' are? They are football hooligans looking to smash the other team's supporters, they are drunks angry with the world, they are insecure men who need to act big, they are drunks, they are bullies. There are never people looking for fair fights.



I completely agree. This is what I'm trying to say. Using your martial art skills in the street is a bad idea.



Tez3 said:


> You seem to think these are elective fights. And yes I've known people pick a fight with someone bigger and stronger than them, as I said alcohol makes idiots of people.



Okay sure, there are some guys out there who'll pick a fight with anyone. But like you said, generally, "There are never people looking for fair fights."

By elective fights, I guess I'm suggesting you can choose whether to get pulled in or not. You can back down. You can get out of there. You can avoid escalation. You don't have to spit in the guy's eye or insult his favorite sports team. And here I'm just talking about the monkey dance stuff. If it's a mugging or something like that, you can bet it's not a fair fight. Trying to punch out some guy who's mugging you--now that sounds like a bad idea to me.

So if it doesn't make sense to use martial arts in a brawl or when you're getting mugged, when does it make sense? In the dojo. In the ring. In the cage. 



Tez3 said:


> If someone challenges you and you take them up on it, it is NOT self defence is it.



I agree completely.


----------



## Rick Franklin

Headhunter said:


> Well sorry but some people do want to train seriously. If these guys are training for a competition they do want to focus on training not acting like clowns. When I'm rolling in bjj I'm focused on the roll because 1 I want to get better and 2 I'm focused on stopping a guy choking me out or putting me in a submission so yeah I'm not cracking jokes while trying to defend against submissions. But in drills yeah you can have a joke sometimes but rolling no that's the time to work



I understand what you're saying. I guess as a novice it didn't work well for me. In Tang Soo Do, we could keep talking while sparring even if sparring hard. You can congratulate the other guy on a good hit. If you keep getting him with a back fist, you can mention his hands are low. Often there'd be a disparity between opponents so you weren't going as hard as you can. Adult vs teenager. Black belt vs green belt. It was friendly and no ego involved.

This one guy I knew had this great attack he'd use, leaping in with a back-fist after raising his leg to fake the kick. Guys wouldn't know what to defend as he collided with you and invariably he'd get a shot in. A bit of a cheap-shot if you ask me but it worked so I can't knock it. Anyway it became the joke when you used it, like "he got me with the Bob Special".

When I tried BJJ, I didn't know anything. So if some guy gets me with an armbar, I'm interested to talk about it. What did I do wrong? Is there a counter I could have tried? Or this guy is trying to get a rear naked choke on me but I'm trying this defense I read about in "Jiu-jitsu University" and he can't seem to lock it in. I want to talk about that afterwards. Did it work? Could I have done something better? Isn't that how you get better at this stuff?

Instead they took a sink-or-swim approach. Pretty much any counter I came up with, I got from YouTube because I wasn't getting anything from the classes. They'd get me with a submission and that night I'd be looking it up on YouTube to see what I can do about it. If I knew what I was doing, like the basics, then sure you can just play it out as intense as you like. But as a beginner, it didn't work for me.

Probably it was just a different teaching style that clashed with what I was used to.


----------



## Tez3

Rick Franklin said:


> I completely agree. This is what I'm trying to say. Using your martial art skills in the street is a bad idea.





Rick Franklin said:


> So if it doesn't make sense to use martial arts in a brawl or when you're getting mugged, when does it make sense? In the dojo. In the ring. In the cage.




I really don't think you understand martial arts in the slightest. I don't think you even know what they are.

You certainly have some weird romantic idea of street fights, perhaps it's because you watch too many fictional encounters and play too many video games. You seem to think I'm making personal attacks and 'blaming you' , trust me, if I were you'd know. What I can't understand is why you are blaming martial arts for your apparent inability to understand what is being taught or how they are used. You seem to think it's martial arts that are the problem which indicates to me a lack of understanding, you say that martial arts have 'baggage' I suggest that so many different places and different styles are not the ones with the problem. The above posts prove my point. At no point would I say don't use martial arts.

Do you know what 'martial arts skills' are? Why do you think martial arts and fighting are two different things? Why wouldn't you use martial arts and the self defence skills to defend yourself? What would you do instead?


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## Rick Franklin

Tez3 said:


> I really don't think you understand martial arts in the slightest. I don't think you even know what they are.
> 
> You certainly have some weird romantic idea of street fights, perhaps it's because you watch too many fictional encounters and play too many video games. You seem to think I'm making personal attacks and 'blaming you' , trust me, if I were you'd know. What I can't understand is why you are blaming martial arts for your apparent inability to understand what is being taught or how they are used. You seem to think it's martial arts that are the problem which indicates to me a lack of understanding, you say that martial arts have 'baggage' I suggest that so many different places and different styles are not the ones with the problem. The above posts prove my point. At no point would I say don't use martial arts.
> 
> Do you know what 'martial arts skills' are? Why do you think martial arts and fighting are two different things? Why wouldn't you use martial arts and the self defence skills to defend yourself? What would you do instead?



Okay, we're just talking in circles now. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## Headhunter

Rick Franklin said:


> Okay, we're just talking in circles now. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.


So basically you have no answers to her questions then?


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## Headhunter

Rick Franklin said:


> I understand what you're saying. I guess as a novice it didn't work well for me. In Tang Soo Do, we could keep talking while sparring even if sparring hard. You can congratulate the other guy on a good hit. If you keep getting him with a back fist, you can mention his hands are low. Often there'd be a disparity between opponents so you weren't going as hard as you can. Adult vs teenager. Black belt vs green belt. It was friendly and no ego involved.
> 
> This one guy I knew had this great attack he'd use, leaping in with a back-fist after raising his leg to fake the kick. Guys wouldn't know what to defend as he collided with you and invariably he'd get a shot in. A bit of a cheap-shot if you ask me but it worked so I can't knock it. Anyway it became the joke when you used it, like "he got me with the Bob Special".
> 
> When I tried BJJ, I didn't know anything. So if some guy gets me with an armbar, I'm interested to talk about it. What did I do wrong? Is there a counter I could have tried? Or this guy is trying to get a rear naked choke on me but I'm trying this defense I read about in "Jiu-jitsu University" and he can't seem to lock it in. I want to talk about that afterwards. Did it work? Could I have done something better? Isn't that how you get better at this stuff?
> 
> Instead they took a sink-or-swim approach. Pretty much any counter I came up with, I got from YouTube because I wasn't getting anything from the classes. They'd get me with a submission and that night I'd be looking it up on YouTube to see what I can do about it. If I knew what I was doing, like the basics, then sure you can just play it out as intense as you like. But as a beginner, it didn't work for me.
> 
> Probably it was just a different teaching style that clashed with what I was used to.


Firstly talking while doing stand up sparring is extremely dangerous.

Second the guy you're rolling with wants to train. He submits you he either moves on to the next person or he carries on the roll so he can get his mat time in. He doesn't want to spend half the round teaching you how to escape an arm bar. If you want to ask after class or discuss it during the drilling part of the class. Also the last thing someone wants to do when rolling is have a discussion about YouTube videos you've watched in the middle of a roll. Ask at the appropriate. People are there to train. The way to get better at grappling is to grapple not talking about grappling


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## Headhunter

Rick Franklin said:


> I completely agree. This is what I'm trying to say. Using your martial art skills in the street is a bad idea.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay sure, there are some guys out there who'll pick a fight with anyone. But like you said, generally, "There are never people looking for fair fights."
> 
> By elective fights, I guess I'm suggesting you can choose whether to get pulled in or not. You can back down. You can get out of there. You can avoid escalation. You don't have to spit in the guy's eye or insult his favorite sports team. And here I'm just talking about the monkey dance stuff. If it's a mugging or something like that, you can bet it's not a fair fight. Trying to punch out some guy who's mugging you--now that sounds like a bad idea to me.
> 
> So if it doesn't make sense to use martial arts in a brawl or when you're getting mugged, when does it make sense? In the dojo. In the ring. In the cage.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree completely.


Using my martial arts in a fight is a bad idea?

Okay so if I spend a few years learning how to throw a good jab, cross combo and how to use to use my hips to get the most power and get good extension on my punches and keep my hands up guard my head. I do all that then when I have to defend myself you think I should just throw arm punches using no rotation and punch with my thumb tucked into my things and my chin completely exposed? You reckon that's a better idea?


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## Gerry Seymour

Rick Franklin said:


> I'm saying the concept of a street fight is a myth and to assume you're ever getting into a street fight, in the conventional sense, is dangerous. It ignores the very real possibility that guy can pull a knife while you're trying to choke him out. Or he can pull out a gun and shoot you after you knock him down. Or maybe you'll be beating him to a pulp when his friends show up. Being in great shape and a great martial artist doesn't help you with those situations. It's not worth putting your life on the line. Ever.


Which concept of a street fight are you talking about? I've heard several. Some are myths, and some are more or less based on what actually happens in a specific subset of "attacks".


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## Gerry Seymour

Rick Franklin said:


> I like martial arts, I just don't like all the baggage that it can come with.


I feel the same way about travel.


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## Gerry Seymour

Rick Franklin said:


> Once I saw police footage of a cop who was knocked over by a handcuffed perp. He knocked his head against the floor and was paralyzed for life. Martial arts wouldn't have helped him there.


I'd argue good grappling experience would have made him less likely to get knocked over, and more likely to take the fall in a way that protects him.


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## Gerry Seymour

Rick Franklin said:


> But you can probably get a gun, learn how to shoot it and get the necessary licenses without anywhere near the effort it takes to get competent at a martial art.


To a level where you can competently use it, under high stress, in a hurry, around other people, with a moving target trying to hurt you?

That takes a LOT more effort than learning to punch someone well.


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## Gerry Seymour

Grenadier said:


> *Admin's Note:*
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen,
> 
> If you don't like what a particular poster is saying, you are certainly welcome to use the "ignore this user" feature that's part of the Xenforo software.


AUUGH!

Everyone listen to the creepy spider girl. PLEASE. Don't make her come back again.


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## Tez3

Headhunter said:


> So basically you have no answers to her questions then?




it doesn't seem so does it. I really do not understand where he's coming from and he is not explaining.


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## Tez3

Rick Franklin said:


> Okay, we're just talking in circles now. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.




I'm not disagreeing with you though, I'm asking questions in order to understand your point of view. It does seem as if you are ducking out of answering, which is odd.


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## oftheherd1

Rick Franklin said:


> ...
> 
> Looking at martial arts like this, the real question seems to be why doesn't everyone quit?
> ..



First you have to get everyone to agree to look at martial arts as your hypothetical juggler does.  I never have and know I would not look at all martial arts that way.  But,



gpseymour said:


> There's a huge range out there, in martial arts, as with most pursuits. You just have to find what suits you.



So some pursuits that call themselves martial arts would not qualify as martial arts imho, and I think I could identify them quickly enough I wouldn't need to quit since I wouldn't begin them.


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## oftheherd1

Rick Franklin said:


> To defend the quitter. Even the guy who never shows up to class. *In my mind those quitters are just as good, just as smart, and just as dedicated at the things that are important to them as you are.* Any suggestion otherwise is just pretense. No one gets upset when someone gives up juggling for another hobby, but martial arts is rife with that kind of elitism. That's part of what drove me away and I felt compelled to share my opinion.



BOLDED:  Not knowing them I can't agree or disagree.  But if martial arts isn't their thing, I think it would not make sense for them to keep doing it.  The caveat to that is if you read the original poster, he is trying to help particular types of quitters, not all in general.  That is how I understood his post and I think most here think the same way.
UNDERLINED:  I don't think martial arts is rife with that attitude.  And I don't think that attitude is always elitism.  Often those who express such ideas on this forum get short shrift from others.  Are you sure you are on the right forum?


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## Tez3

Rick Franklin said:


> Actually, it's the definition of a personal attack. Instead of providing evidence against my comments, you blame all my views on me personally. Here you go:
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/personal_attack




You are actually personally responsible for all your views, if you aren't who is? The words 'my views' give it away.

Anyway here's something for you to think about.


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## Bill Mattocks

There is nothing inherently wrong with quitting anything.  Quitting anything doesn't make you a bad person.  Persevering does not necessarily make you a good person.

I've started and quit many things.  I quit trying to learn to play the guitar, or to read music, and I've put learning Esperanto on hold for so many years now I think I can safely say I quit doing it.  I don't see it as a good or bad thing; it's just a decision.

The question is whether or not I want something enough to persevere long enough to learn it to the level I find acceptable.  No one else judges what that level is, that's for me to decide, as it would be for anyone.  Some people want to be able to play a song or two for their friends or family on a guitar, some dream of stardom.  Whatever floats your boat.

In answer to young dude with the serious case of butthurt, I honestly think that's on him.  In my dojo at least, we're all pretty much family at this point.  We've all been through a lot together.  We've lost students who passed away, moved away, became seriously ill due to things like cancer and heart disease and bad knees and hips and so on.   We've had people just stop showing up.  Some of them we're still in contact with in one form or another, and we are still on friendly terms with a single exception of a person who burned their bridges on the way out.  That's ONE person, in all the time I've trained there.  If former students drop by (and sometimes they do, like to say hi or come to our annual Christmas party), we're happy to see them.  We miss them.  We wish they'd come back, but if they can't or don't want to, we don't judge them or stop being friends with them.  It is what it is.  The things that made us like that person are still the same, nothing has really changed.

We do like to laugh and joke about the people who leave and we see them all the time and they earnestly tell us they're coming back any day now, mainly because it's so common to hear.  We tease them about it, good-naturedly.  It's nothing to get upset about.

Most students quit, eventually.  A few of them get to some place they wanted to get and move on.  Hey, great.  I don't know most of the reasons some leave.  Sometimes I don't even notice for awhile, because people often skip a week or more, so it's hard to tell when they're going.  We don't have contracts, so if they don't show up, we're not looking for money from them.

If you want to quit, by all means quit.  If it's not for you, it's not for you.  If you want to do something else, do something else.  I originally posted to encourage the student who wanted to continue but found it difficult.  Many people face adversity.  There are many ways of overcoming it.  I would encourage anyone who really wants to train to push themselves to do so.  But if they want to quit, no problem.

Maybe this comes from my background in the military.  I know lots of people who tell me how they wanted to join, but this or that got in the way and somehow it just never happened, and so on.  I get it.  But here's the thing.  Wishing you'd done it isn't the same as doing it.  You did it or you did not do it.  You served or you did not serve.  Doesn't make anyone a better person for serving or a worse person for not serving.  But you're either a veteran or you ain't one.  Getting butthurt because you decided not to join and now feel excluded from the veteran's club?  Well, don't know what to say.  Do or do not, as Yoda said.

As to those dancing around with the usual commentary about training for self-defense and not some mystical mumbo-jumbo, I say fine.  You do you.  I started training for that reason, among others, but I found something else along the way.  I'm not going to apologize for it.  Too bad if you don't care for it.  I like the art as an art.  I see value in training to train, and for my own mental, spiritual, and emotional well-being.  I find that my training informs nearly every aspect of my life.  If it doesn't for you, hey, cool.  I get it.  It does for me.  So lay off.


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## _Simon_

Bill Mattocks said:


> There is nothing inherently wrong with quitting anything.  Quitting anything doesn't make you a bad person.  Persevering does not necessarily make you a good person.
> 
> I've started and quit many things.  I quit trying to learn to play the guitar, or to read music, and I've put learning Esperanto on hold for so many years now I think I can safely say I quit doing it.  I don't see it as a good or bad thing; it's just a decision.
> 
> The question is whether or not I want something enough to persevere long enough to learn it to the level I find acceptable.  No one else judges what that level is, that's for me to decide, as it would be for anyone.  Some people want to be able to play a song or two for their friends or family on a guitar, some dream of stardom.  Whatever floats your boat.
> 
> In answer to young dude with the serious case of butthurt, I honestly think that's on him.  In my dojo at least, we're all pretty much family at this point.  We've all been through a lot together.  We've lost students who passed away, moved away, became seriously ill due to things like cancer and heart disease and bad knees and hips and so on.   We've had people just stop showing up.  Some of them we're still in contact with in one form or another, and we are still on friendly terms with a single exception of a person who burned their bridges on the way out.  That's ONE person, in all the time I've trained there.  If former students drop by (and sometimes they do, like to say hi or come to our annual Christmas party), we're happy to see them.  We miss them.  We wish they'd come back, but if they can't or don't want to, we don't judge them or stop being friends with them.  It is what it is.  The things that made us like that person are still the same, nothing has really changed.
> 
> We do like to laugh and joke about the people who leave and we see them all the time and they earnestly tell us they're coming back any day now, mainly because it's so common to hear.  We tease them about it, good-naturedly.  It's nothing to get upset about.
> 
> Most students quit, eventually.  A few of them get to some place they wanted to get and move on.  Hey, great.  I don't know most of the reasons some leave.  Sometimes I don't even notice for awhile, because people often skip a week or more, so it's hard to tell when they're going.  We don't have contracts, so if they don't show up, we're not looking for money from them.
> 
> If you want to quit, by all means quit.  If it's not for you, it's not for you.  If you want to do something else, do something else.  I originally posted to encourage the student who wanted to continue but found it difficult.  Many people face adversity.  There are many ways of overcoming it.  I would encourage anyone who really wants to train to push themselves to do so.  But if they want to quit, no problem.
> 
> Maybe this comes from my background in the military.  I know lots of people who tell me how they wanted to join, but this or that got in the way and somehow it just never happened, and so on.  I get it.  But here's the thing.  Wishing you'd done it isn't the same as doing it.  You did it or you did not do it.  You served or you did not serve.  Doesn't make anyone a better person for serving or a worse person for not serving.  But you're either a veteran or you ain't one.  Getting butthurt because you decided not to join and now feel excluded from the veteran's club?  Well, don't know what to say.  Do or do not, as Yoda said.
> 
> As to those dancing around with the usual commentary about training for self-defense and not some mystical mumbo-jumbo, I say fine.  You do you.  I started training for that reason, among others, but I found something else along the way.  I'm not going to apologize for it.  Too bad if you don't care for it.  I like the art as an art.  I see value in training to train, and for my own mental, spiritual, and emotional well-being.  I find that my training informs nearly every aspect of my life.  If it doesn't for you, hey, cool.  I get it.  It does for me.  So lay off.


Very well said Bill. And we don't know what's going on behind the scenes in anyone's life, sometimes it's complex, and outside the dojo people can be struggling bigtime. It doesn't make sense to judge others if they decide to move on, as their reason involves many factors that we may be very unaware of.

It's always worth encouraging people to keep training, but ultimately they know their own lives, and will do what they feel is best for them.


----------



## Rick Franklin

Bill Mattocks said:


> There is nothing inherently wrong with quitting anything.  Quitting anything doesn't make you a bad person.  Persevering does not necessarily make you a good person.
> 
> I've started and quit many things.  I quit trying to learn to play the guitar, or to read music, and I've put learning Esperanto on hold for so many years now I think I can safely say I quit doing it.  I don't see it as a good or bad thing; it's just a decision.
> 
> The question is whether or not I want something enough to persevere long enough to learn it to the level I find acceptable.  No one else judges what that level is, that's for me to decide, as it would be for anyone.  Some people want to be able to play a song or two for their friends or family on a guitar, some dream of stardom.  Whatever floats your boat.
> 
> In answer to young dude with the serious case of butthurt, I honestly think that's on him.  In my dojo at least, we're all pretty much family at this point.  We've all been through a lot together.  We've lost students who passed away, moved away, became seriously ill due to things like cancer and heart disease and bad knees and hips and so on.   We've had people just stop showing up.  Some of them we're still in contact with in one form or another, and we are still on friendly terms with a single exception of a person who burned their bridges on the way out.  That's ONE person, in all the time I've trained there.  If former students drop by (and sometimes they do, like to say hi or come to our annual Christmas party), we're happy to see them.  We miss them.  We wish they'd come back, but if they can't or don't want to, we don't judge them or stop being friends with them.  It is what it is.  The things that made us like that person are still the same, nothing has really changed.
> 
> We do like to laugh and joke about the people who leave and we see them all the time and they earnestly tell us they're coming back any day now, mainly because it's so common to hear.  We tease them about it, good-naturedly.  It's nothing to get upset about.
> 
> Most students quit, eventually.  A few of them get to some place they wanted to get and move on.  Hey, great.  I don't know most of the reasons some leave.  Sometimes I don't even notice for awhile, because people often skip a week or more, so it's hard to tell when they're going.  We don't have contracts, so if they don't show up, we're not looking for money from them.
> 
> If you want to quit, by all means quit.  If it's not for you, it's not for you.  If you want to do something else, do something else.  I originally posted to encourage the student who wanted to continue but found it difficult.  Many people face adversity.  There are many ways of overcoming it.  I would encourage anyone who really wants to train to push themselves to do so.  But if they want to quit, no problem.
> 
> Maybe this comes from my background in the military.  I know lots of people who tell me how they wanted to join, but this or that got in the way and somehow it just never happened, and so on.  I get it.  But here's the thing.  Wishing you'd done it isn't the same as doing it.  You did it or you did not do it.  You served or you did not serve.  Doesn't make anyone a better person for serving or a worse person for not serving.  But you're either a veteran or you ain't one.  Getting butthurt because you decided not to join and now feel excluded from the veteran's club?  Well, don't know what to say.  Do or do not, as Yoda said.
> 
> As to those dancing around with the usual commentary about training for self-defense and not some mystical mumbo-jumbo, I say fine.  You do you.  I started training for that reason, among others, but I found something else along the way.  I'm not going to apologize for it.  Too bad if you don't care for it.  I like the art as an art.  I see value in training to train, and for my own mental, spiritual, and emotional well-being.  I find that my training informs nearly every aspect of my life.  If it doesn't for you, hey, cool.  I get it.  It does for me.  So lay off.



Sorry, guys. I'm in the wrong here. I went back and re-read the original post and I can see that I projected my own issues into it. I would have been better off posting on Bullshido or something. In any case, feel free to ignore my posts. If I disturbed your "friendly martial arts community" then I apologize.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Rick Franklin said:


> Sorry, guys. I'm in the wrong here. I went back and re-read the original post and I can see that I projected my own issues into it. I would have been better off posting on Bullshido or something. In any case, feel free to ignore my posts. If I disturbed your "friendly martial arts community" then I apologize.


We all do it at times, Rick. No worries. (See? We're friendly!)

Join the discussions if you find one that interests or amuses you.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Rick Franklin said:


> Sorry, guys. I'm in the wrong here. I went back and re-read the original post and I can see that I projected my own issues into it. I would have been better off posting on Bullshido or something. In any case, feel free to ignore my posts. If I disturbed your "friendly martial arts community" then I apologize.


I'd say you were actually better off posting here. Certain unnamed forums would have encouraged you to continue to project your own issues into a post like that, this forum resulted in you self-reflecting. Stick around!


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## Buka

I know I'll quit Martial Arts training someday. Right after I die.

It's not because I'm some dedicated Budo-head, I just really like it. But I tell ya, this getting back into shape after medical issues is a royal pain.


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## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> I know I'll quit Martial Arts training someday. Right after I die.
> 
> It's not because I'm some dedicated Budo-head, I just really like it. But I tell ya, this getting back into shape after medical issues is a royal pain.


Agreed, on all counts, my friend.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Buka said:


> I know I'll quit Martial Arts training someday. Right after I die.
> 
> It's not because I'm some dedicated Budo-head, I just really like it. But I tell ya, this getting back into shape after medical issues is a royal pain.


Ive tried to quit a few times. Turns out im bad at it


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## Flying Crane

Buka said:


> I know I'll quit Martial Arts training someday. Right after I die.
> 
> It's not because I'm some dedicated Budo-head, I just really like it. But I tell ya, this getting back into shape after medical issues is a royal pain.


How long after you die do you suppose that will happen?


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## Flying Crane

Rick Franklin said:


> Sorry, guys. I'm in the wrong here. I went back and re-read the original post and I can see that I projected my own issues into it. I would have been better off posting on Bullshido or something. In any case, feel free to ignore my posts. If I disturbed your "friendly martial arts community" then I apologize.


We all have those days.  I respect anyone who owns up to it.


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## Buka

Flying Crane said:


> How long after you die do you suppose that will happen?



I'm not sure. It would depend on who and what I come back as. I hope I come back as me again. I'm really good at being me.


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## theboxer

I will quit within the first month if the school is crap, and I will quit several years later if I am not getting what I want out of the martial arts anymore and switch to something else.


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## GregoryRap

Thanks for sharing these site list. Itâ€™s very helpful for me. Above links really help us to create high quality backlinks for our sites.


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## ShortBridge

Buka said:


> I'm not sure. It would depend on who and what I come back as. I hope I come back as me again. I'm really good at being me.



Hopefully we don't die in a zombie apocalypse. A bunch of well trained zombies is the last thing that...

...oh...I just got a great idea for a movie...


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## Buka

Write that puppy!


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## yak sao

ShortBridge said:


> Hopefully we don't die in a zombie apocalypse. A bunch of well trained zombies is the last thing that...
> 
> ...oh...I just got a great idea for a movie...



Here's your title..._Z Force_


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

GregoryRap said:


> Thanks for sharing these site list. Itâ€™s very helpful for me. Above links really help us to create high quality backlinks for our sites.


I think you may have clicked on the wrong thread by accident?


----------



## Rusty B

Bill Mattocks said:


> For what it's worth, the ones I find most intriguing are the ones who call up on the phone, ask questions, and then say _"That sounds great!  I'll be in on Thursday to begin training, see you then!"_  Then they do not show up.  That in itself isn't that odd, but then they call back.  Months or sometimes years later; but they are the same person; you recognize the voice.  They ask the same questions, say the same thing, still don't show up.  First, why tell *us* you're going to show up on X date?  We will be in class regardless of whether you do or don't.  Second, why don't you show up?  Third, why, if you don't plan to show up, do you keep calling and saying you're going to?  So very strange.
> 
> Our Sensei also mentions that he runs into former students all the time who stop him when they see him out on the street, greet him warmly, and inform him that a) they are still working on their kata at home and b) they'll be back in the dojo next week.  _"Next week"_ must be code for _"I am never coming back again."_  Because they never do.
> 
> But occasionally, we do have students return after being gone for months, years, and in a couple cases, decades.  They come back, and some of them stay and keep training.  Hey, *life happens*.  Doesn't matter what happened to keep you from training, the point is you can train now, so welcome back and get busy!



This explains a few things.  A little over a year ago, I was shopping around for a place to begin karate... and one place I stopped at, I told him that I'd be there next week for the intro class... and, in his response, you could hear the attitude of "Yeah, okay.  Whatever you say, bud."

I gave him exactly what he was expecting, and signed up somewhere else, where they were eager to get the ball rolling.


----------



## Harry Flannagan

Very well said! There were plenty of times I wanted to quit before, but I soldiered on. It took me longer to get my blue belt. But I'll keep working to get my purple. This is very in


----------



## nikthegreek_3

Regarding the possibility of the bad teacher as mentioned... I think that this will help you check whether a teacher is good or not. So as not to waste your time. I totally agree that whoever teaches Active Defenses will waste your time. And this is why people believe that traditional martial arts like Wing Chun are useless:


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## Puppage

Rusty B said:


> This explains a few things.  A little over a year ago, I was shopping around for a place to begin karate... and one place I stopped at, I told him that I'd be there next week for the intro class... and, in his response, you could hear the attitude of "Yeah, okay.  Whatever you say, bud."
> 
> I gave him exactly what he was expecting, and signed up somewhere else, where they were eager to get the ball rolling.


I would have done the same thing.


----------



## Puppage

Harry Flannagan said:


> Very well said! There were plenty of times I wanted to quit before, but I soldiered on. It took me longer to get my blue belt. But I'll keep working to get my purple. This is very in


Love your determination.


----------



## Buka

Harry Flannagan said:


> Very well said! There were plenty of times I wanted to quit before, but I soldiered on. It took me longer to get my blue belt. But I'll keep working to get my purple. This is very in



Welcome to Martial Talk, Harry.


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## Buka

You know, seeing this thread again after a long time, really makes me miss @Bill Mattocks.

I hope he's well.


----------



## _Simon_

Buka said:


> You know, seeing this thread again after a long time, really makes me miss @Bill Mattocks.
> 
> I hope he's well.


Same Buka!


----------



## Harry Flannagan

Buka said:


> Welcome to Martial Talk, Harry.


Thanks, Buka! Appreciate that.


----------



## Diagen

Bill Mattocks said:


> *Dear Prospective New Student:*
> 
> First, welcome to our training facility.  We are glad you decided to start your martial arts training journey and we're glad you chose us.  We'd like to share a few things with you to get started, and we'd like to issue a couple of warnings, just so you know what to expect.
> 
> 
> *PRE-QUITTERS:*
> 
> We'll never get to know you, unfortunately.  You've called or come by the training facility, picked up some literature, asked some questions.  Maybe you even stayed and watched some training.  You told yourself that this is something you think you'd like to do.  But for whatever reason, you don't come back.  You may be surprised, but every training facility has people who call multiple times to ask about training, and to state that they will definitely be in the next week to start training.  Some call every year in January; must be a New Year's Resolution or something.  Whatever; you won't sign up, you won't train.  You've quit before you've begun.
> 
> Some of you will ask around online about training.  Where the local facilities are, if this or that art or trainer is well-respected, and so on.  You'll describe your desire to start training, maybe give some background about yourself.  Perhaps you've been in the military and gotten some martial arts training there.  Perhaps you are a little older and trained in some martial arts style as a child and now you'd like to get back into it.  Perhaps you think it would be a good way to lose some weight, to stay fit, to learn self-defense.  You're very inquisitive, and seem enthusiastic, but you won't actually sign up and start training, for whatever reason.
> 
> Some of you will ask about video and book-based training.  You may or may not be pleased with the reply, because although there are some who think martial arts can be learned from a book or from a video, many trained martial artists do not, and they'll give you their unvarnished opinion.  We realize that this will probably lead to some angry words and a rapid departure.  Not only won't you join a martial arts training center, you also won't practice your asked-about book or video learning either.  We won't see you again online, although the discussion threads you've begun will probably continue for some time after you've gone.
> 
> Some of you will describe all the ways that it is impossible for you to train in person.  You live many miles from the nearest training facility.  You do not have a job, and therefore no money.  You do not have a vehicle or access to transportation.  You work or go to school when the training facility offers classes.  There are many reasons why local in-person training is not possible for you.  We can offer only this; finding a way to attend training is the first part of your martial arts journey.  If you cannot do this (and your reasons may be quite real, we're not calling you a liar), you would not keep training anyway; because it only gets harder from there.  If you really want to do it, you will find a way to make it happen, even if it means doing things that are quite uncomfortable or difficult, or making long-range plans that include waiting until you can change your circumstances.  Some will recommend that you wait until you can change your circumstances, but that in the meantime, you consider doing calisthenics, working out, doing weight training, becoming flexible, or taking other classes that can help you later; like ballroom dancing, or jazzercise or yoga or other forms of physical activity that require you to develop balance, rhythm,  and increase your endurance and basic fitness level.  You may reject these; after all, they are not what you want to do.  We agree, but we know from the benefit of having trained for awhile in martial arts that these things can and will benefit you; dancers are often quite good martial artists, people who are flexible from yoga find it easy to perform higher kicks, and so on.  Again, if you are unwilling to consider this type of training while you wait until your circumstances change so that you can get started with martial arts training, you are probably not that serious about martial arts training.
> 
> And let us just say that being a quitter is not a bad thing.  It's not meant to hurt or insult you.  People choose to do or not do things for all kinds of reasons, and just not wanting to do it is a perfectly valid reason.  There is no shame, and no harm, in deciding you don't want to do something; or in deciding after trying it that is just not for you.  Have no fear; walk away and do something you DO like to do.  We're all different, and we all want different things out of life.  No harm, no foul.  You're still a good person; you just don't want to be a martial artist.  Totally OK.
> 
> *DAY ONE QUITTERS:*
> 
> About half of our prospective new students quit after the first day.  Reasons vary, and we don't even know all of them, but our theory is that for many, the reality of our martial arts training does not meet up with their expectations.
> 
> For example, we spend at least 30 minutes of our 2-hour training session doing calisthenics and stretching exercises.  We understand if you are not in good physical condition or if you have physical limitations that prevent you from doing everything we do; but do ask you to do what you can.  We do pushups, we do jumping jacks, we do crunchers and situps and we skip rope.  If you are able to keep pace, you will be breathing hard and sweating by the time we're ready to start any kind of actual training.  We do this because it is important to prepare the body and the mind for the activity that is to come.  We have found that some new students did not expect to have to do hard physical exercise, and that's not what they want to do.
> 
> We also start our newest students off with extreme basics, such as how to make a fist, how to stand, how to step forward and back, how to punch.  This may seem a far cry from smashing bricks or doing 'real' self-defense, but in grade school, you practiced writing your alphabet before you started writing words, and this is no different.  We have found that some new students do not like the idea of beginning at the very beginning.
> 
> It has also been noted that invariably, new students ask us _"How long until I get my black belt?"_  This is a very common and legitimate question, we'd be surprised if you did not ask it; but the answer may not be what you want to hear.  In our training facility, the answer is that it varies, depending upon the student.  At the minimum, it will take several years, and the average for us is probably somewhere in the five year range.  That's a long time, and we understand that may be disappointing for some.  We cannot say that it is not legitimate for a person to have _'earning a black belt'_ as a goal for their training, but in our training facility, we keep two things uppermost in mind.  First, for us, we're more interested in the training we receive than the belt we wear around our waists and second, sho-dan (first degree black belt) is only the beginning of a lifetime's commitment to martial arts training.  We do understand if that is not what you are interested in, but it is what we do here.
> 
> *3 MONTH QUITTERS:*
> 
> We're always happy when a new student returns, especially after the first day!  Unfortunately, we have also noticed that a lot of students stop coming around the the three-month mark.  Again, we're not certain, but there may be a number of reasons for this. We have noted that some students seem to quit after they have received their first or second belt promotions.  This is disappointing to us, because we've invested a lot in you as a student by now, we've gotten to know and like you as a person, and you've put in a lot of hard work.  We've welcomed you into our family, and no that you're not there, we notice it and we miss you.  We wish you'd come back!
> 
> When asked, some have said that they quit because even after three months, they felt they were not learning _'martial arts'._  That is, they were still spending a lot of time on basics.  Stepping, standing, punching, kicking, and the beginnings of kata and the foreign vocabulary words we use in our training facility.  Some of it does not feel like it's very much geared towards self-defense or even the kind of fluid, graceful, martial arts moves one can see in movies or on the Internet.  They might become discouraged or think that they are not progressing.  The fact is, you are progressing, you just don't see it in yourself yet.  You are adding speed and balance and power to your punches, even if you are punching air or a bag.  You are learning distancing and how to hit without hurting your hand, how to kick without hurting your toes.  You're improving; but you just don't see it in yourself yet.  The truth is, you'll probably never see it until you get to the point where you see yourself objectively, but you will get to the point where you see new students who are where you were, and you'll realize that you're not like that anymore.
> 
> The seasons are also changing after three months, in many places.  Fall turns into winter, the weather turns bad.  Students go back to school, schedules change for many of us.  It becomes harder to get to the training facility, harder to dedicate the time necessary.  People catch colds and flu and although they are understandably out for a short period, starting again afterwards can be an uphill slog.  The thing you should remember is that there is only one thing that separates many advanced students from beginning students; they kept attending training.  That's it.  No magic.  They're not more talented than you (OK, maybe some are, and you may be more naturally gifted than some of them), but they kept attending training.  If they seem much better than you are now, that's what time and practice does.  That may seem difficult to accept from the 'beginner' side of things, but it's true.
> 
> Boredom.  Yes, it's true.  Although we vary the routine in our training facility to try to keep things fresh, ultimately we are doing the same things over and over again.  And there is a certain amount of tedium in it if you do not have a long attention span.  But training the body is not exactly the same as training the mind; the body requires repetition to make certain movements natural and reflexive, to apply speed and power to them.  There will come a time when you will see an opening during sparring and you'll throw a punch or a kick and it will go right where you intended it to go, just as you intended it to land; but it will happen because you have thrown that punch of kick hundreds or thousands of times until it seems as natural as swatting a fly or reaching for a kitchen utensil.  It will be in your 'bag of tricks' and you can call upon it anytime you need it.  But until you do it over and over and over again, knowing the movement is not the same as applying the movement.  Yes, it's boring and repetitive and it gets old.  Part of your martial arts journey will be doing things that are not that much fun, without any apparent short-term benefit.
> 
> Afraid to come back after an absence.  Yes, we understand that there are good reasons why you have to stop training for a period of time.  Jobs, school, children, parents, seasons, sickness, injuries, finances, all kinds of reasons, many of them valid.  But we also want you to come back.  We like you by now.  We miss you.  Yes, some of your fellow new students will have advanced since you've been gone.  But that's not a big deal; this is not a race.  You will have lost some training too; you'll forget your kata or forms, your moves will be slow and rusty, you'll have to relearn some things.  But you'll also be surprised at how quickly you'll get it all back once you start training again.  It won't take as long as you think.  So don't think that it's a good idea to stop training permanently just because you had to stop training temporarily.  You don't even have to explain to us why you had to stop; we know how life is.  Just come back and start training again.
> 
> *BLACK BELT QUITTERS:*
> 
> The saddest thing is to see a student quit training when they receive their sho-dan or first-degree black belt.  One instructor put it this way; _"It hurts to know that they see the benefits and choose not to train anyway."_ A student who earns their black belt has generally shown the kind of dedication needed to keep training, to keep learning, to keep trying, no matter the obstacles put in front of them.  You are actively helping others in the training facility; you are looked up to as leaders and newer students model themselves after you.  You are respected and liked; your absence will be sorely felt.
> 
> Why did you quit?  Perhaps you felt like taking a break.  After all, it was a long and difficult climb to that first black belt rank, and there was quite likely an even more difficult last-minute push to make sure you had everything in place to test and pass that milestone.  You were in that last sprint to the finish line and perhaps now it feels like the race is over, or at least that you're not ready to immediately start another race to the next belt.
> 
> Hopefully, you don't think you've learned all there is to learn.  Most black belt students are quite aware that those who have advanced black belts have a level of mastery above them as much as they themselves have over a beginner.  You may have learned all the kata or forms, all the exercises, all the weapons; but it would be wrong to say you've mastered them.  Just as a person with a Bachelor's degree in biology understands the basics of human health, they are in no way a medical doctor.
> 
> Perhaps you feel that you've ticked a box off your bucket list.  If that's all all you wanted, it's perfectly valid; but it does mystify many of us who have turned the corner of perception from martial arts as a way of learning something (self-defense, good conditioning, etc) into seeing martial arts as a way of life, something to be pursued forever, perpetual students who always strive for a deeper level of understanding.  Everyone has their own reasons for training; and for quitting.   There is no 'right' or 'wrong' to it; but once a student reaches black belt range, many life-long students start to think that all black belts feel the same way about training that they do.  It's often a shock to find out that's not the case.
> 
> *THE WAY OF MARTIAL ARTS SUCCESS:*
> 
> The secret, prospective student, is simple, even if it is difficult to implement.  Find a training facility you like, with a qualified instructor that you respect, that teaches what you want to learn.  Find a way to attend regularly, even through difficulty and sacrifice.  Then keep training.  Through boredom, through injuries, through changes in your life that make it difficult to train.  If you have to stop, start again as soon as you can.  Practice when you are not able to train in person.  Repeat this for the rest of your life.  That is the secret to martial arts success.


One of the issues is reaching a certain level then realizing you're still really vulnerable in any fight, and that all your work is useless most of the time anyway. There are many people much better than you, some people with a style or training that you are inherently vulnerable to (something direct and quick for instance often catches people; like a good and quick side kick for reach and power followed up with an effective maul takes most out). There are groups of people that may maim you. There are melee weapons like a blade. There are guns. There are beer bottles to break over your head and gauge you with. There are those that kill or attack before you know it. There are cars -- that run you over. There are cars -- that hit your car and crumple it.

If martial arts made you much much tougher then hell yeah you'd get people showing up every day. Most people don't train for toughness though, or the training is brutal and painful. Even if you could train to stop bullets with your bare flesh the training would be worse than death haha!

Seriously training is just brutal or it isn't very effective. Sure you can do some cardio and lift some weights or calisthenics, knock out some untrained folk and take a few punches from someone with average strength, but Mike Tyson or anyone else more trained more explosive will just knock you out and shrug off your punches. Most "dojos" don't train toughness even.

Wasting time on something that should be as efficient and effective as possible. Who the hell would subject themselves to that? You might as well Olympic lift, chew rubber, strengthen your neck, do some agility training and do general strongman training (lift heavy things) at home because all you need to fight is to be tough and hit hard. 

If you can fight and beat Mike Tyson then I'll sign up, how's that for a standard? If you beat up Mike Tyson people would sign up. Everyone knows he's good, everyone wants to learn from the guy who is better than him. Simple. That's how it is.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Diagen said:


> One of the issues is reaching a certain level then realizing you're still really vulnerable in any fight, and that all your work is useless most of the time anyway. There are many people much better than you, some people with a style or training that you are inherently vulnerable to (something direct and quick for instance often catches people; like a good and quick side kick for reach and power followed up with an effective maul takes most out). There are groups of people that may maim you. There are melee weapons like a blade. There are guns. There are beer bottles to break over your head and gauge you with. There are those that kill or attack before you know it. There are cars -- that run you over. There are cars -- that hit your car and crumple it.
> 
> If martial arts made you much much tougher then hell yeah you'd get people showing up every day. Most people don't train for toughness though, or the training is brutal and painful. Even if you could train to stop bullets with your bare flesh the training would be worse than death haha!
> 
> Seriously training is just brutal or it isn't very effective. Sure you can do some cardio and lift some weights or calisthenics, knock out some untrained folk and take a few punches from someone with average strength, but Mike Tyson or anyone else more trained more explosive will just knock you out and shrug off your punches. Most "dojos" don't train toughness even.
> 
> Wasting time on something that should be as efficient and effective as possible. Who the hell would subject themselves to that? You might as well Olympic lift, chew rubber, strengthen your neck, do some agility training and do general strongman training (lift heavy things) at home because all you need to fight is to be tough and hit hard.
> 
> If you can fight and beat Mike Tyson then I'll sign up, how's that for a standard? If you beat up Mike Tyson people would sign up. Everyone knows he's good, everyone wants to learn from the guy who is better than him. Simple. That's how it is.


Your points are valid and well-taken, given certain assumptions. 

First assumption is that if you do not train to be the best fighter in the world, then your training is useless. This is not true.

I cannot beat Mike Tyson. I'm also not expecting to be attacked by Mike Tyson. I can, I believe, defend myself adequately against most untrained people of the sort who might attack me.

Second assumption is that "all you need to fight is to be tough and hit hard." Being tough and hitting hard are certainly important, but if you're unable to hit the person you're trying to hit, it does no good. The world's best fighters are seldom simply brawlers.

Third assumption is that martial artists train to fight. I would argue that most martial artists train to defend themselves, which may involve fighting, but with the goal of ending the danger to themselves quickly and with as little risk to themselves as possible. There is no trophy for self-defense. 

In addition to training for self-defense rather than 'to fight', I personally train for many other reasons which have very little to do with fighting. I don't believe it is wrong for martial artists to seek a different path than mine, nor is my path wrong. It's simply my path.

Based on your logic, because I am 60 years old, have various illnesses, and am not in peak physical condition, nor will I ever be a world-class athlete, I should simply stop training, give up, and forget about martial arts. Forgive me, but I'm going to reject that logic.

You do you, and I'll do me. I'm going to continue training until I die, because this is what I want to do. It may not meet your standards of excellence. Somehow I'll live with the knowledge that I've disappointed you.


----------



## Diagen

Bill Mattocks said:


> Your points are valid and well-taken, given certain assumptions.
> 
> First assumption is that if you do not train to be the best fighter in the world, then your training is useless. This is not true.
> 
> I cannot beat Mike Tyson. I'm also not expecting to be attacked by Mike Tyson. I can, I believe, defend myself adequately against most untrained people of the sort who might attack me.
> 
> Second assumption is that "all you need to fight is to be tough and hit hard." Being tough and hitting hard are certainly important, but if you're unable to hit the person you're trying to hit, it does no good. The world's best fighters are seldom simply brawlers.
> 
> Third assumption is that martial artists train to fight. I would argue that most martial artists train to defend themselves, which may involve fighting, but with the goal of ending the danger to themselves quickly and with as little risk to themselves as possible. There is no trophy for self-defense.
> 
> In addition to training for self-defense rather than 'to fight', I personally train for many other reasons which have very little to do with fighting. I don't believe it is wrong for martial artists to seek a different path than mine, nor is my path wrong. It's simply my path.
> 
> Based on your logic, because I am 60 years old, have various illnesses, and am not in peak physical condition, nor will I ever be a world-class athlete, I should simply stop training, give up, and forget about martial arts. Forgive me, but I'm going to reject that logic.
> 
> You do you, and I'll do me. I'm going to continue training until I die, because this is what I want to do. It may not meet your standards of excellence. Somehow I'll live with the knowledge that I've disappointed you.



To sum up what you're saying: Martial artists train to [kill, neutralize, suppress] and being able to [kill, neutralize, suppress] most people is good, aim is required, and there is no reason to quit. I get it.

My point is that anyone can train to be tough, strong, and to aim without anyone teaching them. If they lack motivation then they cannot succeed. If you can motivate people you can become a supreme teacher, but that is not quite your responsibility is it.

But if you can draw in people that train already on their own then you are succeeding as a martial artist. See it as a state of mind -- if you are more knowledgeable than motivated self-trainers then you will become their teacher. If you can lead leaders you are the top of the top. You are old so knowledge and wisdom is paramount. You must think about what motivates martial artists and your students and get to know them, this is good in every way.

Unless you have vast and special athletic and fitness knowledge you can not teach the best of that to your students. I am "self taught" and have a **** ton of knowledge thanks to the internet's vast resources where experts have freely given knowledge. In that sense I am not self-taught, I have been taught by many. I am a good student.
I suggest kneesovertoesguy for you and your students, martial artists can really benefit and he's a coach that's learned from other coaches and his own athletes. He is an expert at lower body and some waist work but I have not checked out all of his material.  You could really make the most of it with your age but your students will definitely appreciate it. I have done stuff he suggests and it's pretty great, it's all based on real athletes and anatomy.
I have known of old dudes 60 and up that are go go go with high mobility. Their activity keeps them young. Constant movement is the most direct way of keeping up your ability move. Explosiveness or power training is also the only way of keeping up power. Whatever metric is atrophying in you can be kept up with proper anatomical knowledge and direct training for the direct result.  If you develop specialized training you can definitely become better than you were in your youth. In terms of diet, there's the 7 food mushrooms 7 Must Know Medicinal Mushrooms to Benefit Your Health you can check out each and read articles on them. Krill oil is big and you should get some. It's like fish oil but has higher concentrations of known beneficial compounds. Glucosamine and Chondroitin are good but you can just boil bones and cartilidge into broth. Putting several veges in a blender is great. Vinegar is known to be good for your health too. Once you're healthy though it just kind of rots without stress to shape it into something, hence why things like onion, vinegar, garlic, red pepper are all beneficial to your health. Kicks you in gear! But still, it's useless without doing something actually stressful and difficult. Hence martial arts.

Your original post is good though and I liked it. It's good for those reading it to contemplate it for a while. The question of one's motivation and the motivation of others is great. It had the well-roundedness of old age that I found appealing due to its tranquility.

However due to contemplations like this I question the motivation and work ethic of all people in all things. People just don't work hard. They will work hard but mentally and emotionally they cannot keep up with the demands and start to turn sour like rotten milk. Then they have emotional and mental issues they can't easily overcome as the underlying weakness has not been resolved. Such weakness has a visceral and physical affect on people and their ability to overcome anything else in life. As such it is difficult to be effective in martial arts without serious mental and emotional strength training.
Do you know of such strength training? I have gone the old fashioned route and it is most effective. Imagining myself dead and slowly decaying with bugs and such crawling on me and in me and chewing away is a good one. Being murdered, strangled (I have been choked out so this works well), drowning, whatever. Seeing the world end in apocolypse, social dysfunction to the point of civilization breakdown, et cetera et cetera. Old fashioned.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Diagen said:


> To sum up what you're saying: Martial artists train to [kill, neutralize, suppress] and being able to [kill, neutralize, suppress] most people is good, aim is required, and there is no reason to quit. I get it.
> 
> My point is that anyone can train to be tough, strong, and to aim without anyone teaching them. If they lack motivation then they cannot succeed. If you can motivate people you can become a supreme teacher.
> 
> But if you can draw in people that train already on their own then you are succeeding as a martial artist. See it as a state of mind -- if you are more knowledgeable than motivated self-trainers then you will become their teacher. If you can lead leaders you are the top of the top. You are old so knowledge and wisdom is paramount. You must think about what motivates martial artists and your students and get to know them, this is good in every way.
> 
> Unless you have vast and special athletic and fitness knowledge you can not teach the best of that to your students. I am "self taught" and have a **** ton of knowledge thanks to the internet's vast resources where experts have freely given knowledge. In that sense I am not self-taught, I have been taught by many. I am a good student.
> I suggest kneesovertoesguy for you and your students, martial artists can really benefit and he's a coach that's learned from other coaches and his own athletes. He is an expert at lower body and some waist work but I have not checked out all of his material.  You could really make the most of it with your age but your students will definitely appreciate it. I have done stuff he suggests and it's pretty great, it's all based on real athletes and anatomy.
> 
> Your original post is good though and I liked it. It's good for those reading it to contemplate it for a while. The question of one's motivation and the motivation of others is great. It had the well-roundedness of old age that I found appealing due to its tranquility.
> 
> However due to contemplations like this I question the motivation and work ethic of all people in all things. People just don't work hard. They will work hard but mentally and emotionally they cannot keep up with the demands and start to turn sour like rotten milk. Then they have emotional and mental issues they can't easily overcome as the underlying weakness has not been resolved. Such weakness has a visceral and physical affect on people and their ability to overcome anything else in life. As such it is difficult to be effective in martial arts without serious mental and emotional strength training.
> Do you know of such strength training? I have gone the old fashioned route and it is most effective. Imagining myself dead and slowly decaying with bugs and such crawling on me and in me and chewing away is a good one. Being murdered, strangled (I have been choked out so this works well), drowning, whatever. Seeing the world end in apocolypse, social dysfunction to the point of civilization breakdown, et cetera et cetera.



Time will be your tutor.


----------



## isshinryuronin

Diagen said:


> I am "self taught" and have a **** ton of knowledge


This explains a lot.


----------



## Diagen

isshinryuronin said:


> This explains a lot.


My mistake but I have learned by transmission of knowledge from experts and footage of real fights including competition and street fights via the internet. I have also trained on my own. Most successful people are motivated without needing to go to a gym or with an instructor present. It lends to my credibility rather than detracts.
I used quotes because I have learned from others.

Apologies for editing the post you are all responding to but it took a while to edit when I realized I wanted to say more and reword some things right after posting.


----------



## Diagen

Bill Mattocks said:


> Time will be your tutor.


Are you going to check out the kneesovertoesguy ? Here:


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Diagen said:


> Are you going to check out the kneesovertoesguy ? Here:


No, I'm not. Thank you for your time.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Diagen said:


> My mistake but I have learned by transmission of knowledge from experts and footage of real fights including competition and street fights via the internet. I have also trained on my own. Most successful people are motivated without needing to go to a gym or with an instructor present. It lends to my credibility rather than detracts.
> I used quotes because I have learned from others.
> 
> Apologies for editing the post you are all responding to but it took a while to edit when I realized I wanted to say more and reword some things right after posting.


Everybody knows a lot until they get their wig split.


----------



## Diagen

Bill Mattocks said:


> Everybody knows a lot until they get their wig split.


It was all basic logic. If you can become tough, strong, and aim, you can fight and beat 99% of people. Martial arts has to be more than what someone can do on their own or it's not really serving the most motivated people.
Essentially everyone is on their own because everyone has low ability in martial arts and the knowledge has to be pieced together and made from scratch. This is fine since most people are not very good at fighting or defending themselves, and most people are not trying to assassinate each other. The kneesovertoesguy stuff is genuine gold and you're just shitting yourself if you don't realize it though.

If you don't want to know how 50+ year old dudes train to keep dunking and playing basketball like when they were younger then go ahead and ignore it. You don't play basketball but the exercises keep you young and makes both YOU and the Young much much more athletic but you're ignoring it for the sake of what? Learn from someone that's learned from the best [the youtuber] and you can develop to be better than when you were young even.

Your line about me getting beat up makes no sense. 0 context. Stop trying to sound tough ffs it sounds like you just thought of a Mike Tyson quote and wanted to hide the fact.


----------



## isshinryuronin

Diagen said:


> Essentially everyone is on their own because everyone has low ability in martial arts and the knowledge has to be pieced together and made from scratch.


This is why serious martial artists have a good, in-person, instructor, and so don't have to piece together from scratch.  It is not possible for someone without considerable formal training to correct themselves.  You don't know what you don't know, and we tend to gloss over bad habits that creep in over the years.  This is true even for experienced black belts.  That is the value of an instructor that can provide feedback.


Diagen said:


> If you don't want to know how 50+ year old dudes train to keep dunking and playing basketball like when they were younger then go ahead and ignore it.


I don't play hoops, but I do karate.  I've kept it up since 1966, off and on, and consider myself more formidable now than when I was a 20 yr. old black belt.  My karate training, with some weight training, has allowed me to "keep dunking."  I could not have reached the level I'm at from anything youtube has to offer.  I've learned from the best so have no need for the inferior route.


----------



## Diagen

isshinryuronin said:


> This is why serious martial artists have a good, in-person, instructor, and so don't have to piece together from scratch.  It is not possible for someone without considerable formal training to correct themselves.  You don't know what you don't know, and we tend to gloss over bad habits that creep in over the years.  This is true even for experienced black belts.  That is the value of an instructor that can provide feedback.
> 
> I don't play hoops, but I do karate.  I've kept it up since 1966, off and on, and consider myself more formidable now than when I was a 20 yr. old black belt.  My karate training, with some weight training, has allowed me to "keep dunking."  I could not have reached the level I'm at from anything youtube has to offer.  I've learned from the best so have no need for the inferior route.


Formal training doesn't make you good relative to the potential though. There's two ways of measuring good: relative to what's common, relative to the known best, and relative to the potential best. Potential best is difficult to determine as it tends to be well above what people imagine.

"has allowed me to "keep dunking" "
Haha this is what I'm talking about man. You have no sense of the principles of athleticism. There are basic ways of measuring human performance and you and many people here ignore them in favor of your EGO.
PURE EGO.
since you can't think about things rationally but only through ego let's go with this:
Do the 7 mobility checks and tell me how you do. When dumbbells are called for, tell me how much weight you use. For the hand to toe weighted stretch tell me how deep you can go as well. Stand on a box or something. Can you reach 1" depth? 3"? 
*I bet you that Day 1 when I did these exercises myself I did better than you. Hands down. You aren't athletic.*
I bet I could probably powerlift more than you too. How much neck training and jaw training do you do? What kind of max effort isometrics do you do? Do you do jumps, sprints, anything like that? Clap push ups? Throwing? Pull ups?


----------



## Diagen

isshinryuronin said:


> This is why serious martial artists have a good, in-person, instructor, and so don't have to piece together from scratch.  It is not possible for someone without considerable formal training to correct themselves.  You don't know what you don't know, and we tend to gloss over bad habits that creep in over the years.  This is true even for experienced black belts.  That is the value of an instructor that can provide feedback.
> 
> I don't play hoops, but I do karate.  I've kept it up since 1966, off and on, and consider myself more formidable now than when I was a 20 yr. old black belt.  My karate training, with some weight training, has allowed me to "keep dunking."  I could not have reached the level I'm at from anything youtube has to offer.  I've learned from the best so have no need for the inferior route.


The first mistake is in equating form and technique with martial arts. Most of martial arts is athleticism and mental presence or mental strength. If you disagree you have no grasp of the fundamental principles and are ignorant. If you agree then you aren't offended. By pure athleticism and mental strength, you will have the presence and prowess to dominate most anyone. 
Can you recognize athleticism and mental strength, presence? Have you ever met someone with both?

How about Mike Tyson. Can you imagine fighting him? He got back into training again a couple years ago I think. What about Francis Ngannou? Can you even imagine it? How did Mike train? For one, he mostly trained in the basics. Not what you want to think about I'm sure, like every new student at some dojo you don't want to imagine that "martial arts training" is a lot of physical exercise and not that flashy. Does someone need to be in the room to tell Mike Tyson how to do a neck bridge? How to jump rope? Did he need some world renown expert to tell him to throw a medicine ball at the ground and do it over and over again? Nope. His form sure as hell didn't need correction. Everything about Mike Tyson and most fighters is basic training. Anyone can knock you out without much technique, just physical power and speed.
Everything about "form" you can learn from using your IQ in sparring, thinking about it, doing it, and training it. All you need is the capacity to observe, orient, plan, attack. Just use your brain. That's how you do it. There are mega loads of resources available online ffs but the impoverished soul or whatnot can't do jack ****.


----------



## Diagen

My mistake you're 60 like the other guy. I am not trying to pick on someone past 60 so answer some of the questions as if you we were talking when you were in your prime and doing more week to week.


----------



## Diagen

Can't even properly measure your athleticism in your prime now but how about you tell me what your black belts can do in calisthenics or any universal measure of performance.
I doubt all of their base athleticism. The most athletic of the bunch do something besides MA at wherever you train.
Since you train MA their horse stance times would contribute, and depth and width of feet and straightness of back.


----------



## isshinryuronin

Diagen said:


> The first mistake is in equating form and technique with martial arts. Most of martial arts is athleticism and mental presence or mental strength. If you disagree you have no grasp of the fundamental principles and are ignorant. If you agree then you aren't offended. By pure athleticism and mental strength, you will have the presence and prowess to dominate most anyone.
> Can you recognize athleticism and mental strength, presence? Have you ever met someone with both?
> 
> How about Mike Tyson. Can you imagine fighting him? He got back into training again a couple years ago I think. What about Francis Ngannou? Can you even imagine it? How did Mike train? For one, he mostly trained in the basics. Not what you want to think about I'm sure, like every new student at some dojo you don't want to imagine that "martial arts training" is a lot of physical exercise and not that flashy. Does someone need to be in the room to tell Mike Tyson how to do a neck bridge? How to jump rope? Did he need some world renown expert to tell him to throw a medicine ball at the ground and do it over and over again? Nope. His form sure as hell didn't need correction. Everything about Mike Tyson and most fighters is basic training. Anyone can knock you out without much technique, just physical power and speed.
> Everything about "form" you can learn from using your IQ in sparring, thinking about it, doing it, and training it. All you need is the capacity to observe, orient, plan, attack. Just use your brain. That's how you do it. There are mega loads of resources available online ffs but the impoverished soul or whatnot can't do jack ****.


You are embarrassing yourself with your posts.  Your ignorance is overwhelming.  You have no credibility with most everyone here, including Mike Tyson if he were to read your trash.  Please leave us out of your fantasy Youtube world and get some therapy.


----------



## Diagen

isshinryuronin said:


> You are embarrassing yourself with your posts.  Your ignorance is overwhelming.  You have no credibility with most everyone here, including Mike Tyson if he were to read your trash.  Please leave us out of your fantasy Youtube world and get some therapy.


Credibility isn't the first thing to think about though. It's reasoning.
_You don't know how to defend your beliefs because you don't know how to think about your beliefs._
If you can reason with someone you can talk to them. Credibility is below reasoning.
*No form and technique isn't the most important thing about martial arts because every person with mental presence, work and strength can create technique and form even on the fly.
No form and technique isn't the most important thing because a child with perfect form and technique Cannot beat a grown man unless that man is severly weakened or disabled.*
Form and technique isn't even Speed and Reaction Time. It isn't the mental strength and presence of mind to use it in a fight, know how to, respond to intimidation and fears, act in a chaotic scene, et cetera.
Whether Mike Tyson agrees or not depends entirely on social and emotional factors because my reasoning is sound. He doesn't like me? Then he disagrees with me. He doesn't like you? He disagrees with you. Same as what you're doing here.


----------



## Diagen

Tell me how someone who is slow, weak, and fragile is suppose to win in a fight. The only way is to gouge their eyes and crush/ pull their nuts. Brilliant martial arts man but that requires no form and rudimentary technique while assuming the other guy isn't moving into your range only to knock you out, or that he doesn't use a technique.

Just knowing techniques and the tactics involve shore up any weakness in the hypothetically stronger, faster, smarter, tougher fighter I am using to demonstrate how out of touch you and most traditional martial artists are. If you think traditional martial artists means you don't have to be the strongest, fastest, smartest, toughest -- you're dragging it down and lowering its credibility.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Diagen said:


> Formal training doesn't make you good relative to the potential though. There's two ways of measuring good: relative to what's common, relative to the known best, and relative to the potential best. Potential best is difficult to determine as it tends to be well above what people imagine.
> 
> "has allowed me to "keep dunking" "
> Haha this is what I'm talking about man. You have no sense of the principles of athleticism. There are basic ways of measuring human performance and you and many people here ignore them in favor of your EGO.
> PURE EGO.
> since you can't think about things rationally but only through ego let's go with this:
> Do the 7 mobility checks and tell me how you do. When dumbbells are called for, tell me how much weight you use. For the hand to toe weighted stretch tell me how deep you can go as well. Stand on a box or something. Can you reach 1" depth? 3"?
> *I bet you that Day 1 when I did these exercises myself I did better than you. Hands down. You aren't athletic.*
> I bet I could probably powerlift more than you too. How much neck training and jaw training do you do? What kind of max effort isometrics do you do? Do you do jumps, sprints, anything like that? Clap push ups? Throwing? Pull ups?


You seem to think everything is a competition. If someone's not better than you on some specific measure you choose (or if you suspect they are not, based upon what you interpret in a post), they must be awful at everything related. That's pretty egotistical. Maybe "pure ego".


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Diagen said:


> Tell me how someone who is slow, weak, and fragile is suppose to win in a fight. The only way is to gouge their eyes and crush/ pull their nuts. Brilliant martial arts man but that requires no form and rudimentary technique while assuming the other guy isn't moving into your range only to knock you out, or that he doesn't use a technique.
> 
> Just knowing techniques and the tactics involve shore up any weakness in the hypothetically stronger, faster, smarter, tougher fighter I am using to demonstrate how out of touch you and most traditional martial artists are. If you think traditional martial artists means you don't have to be the strongest, fastest, smartest, toughest -- you're dragging it down and lowering its credibility.


Your posts are so very full of assumptions about what others think. I can only suppose you've built this whole idea in your head of what martial artists think and do, and use it as a template when responding to others.


----------



## Diagen

gpseymour said:


> You seem to think everything is a competition. If someone's not better than you on some specific measure you choose (or if you suspect they are not, based upon what you interpret in a post), they must be awful at everything related. That's pretty egotistical. Maybe "pure ego".


If they are not good at 10 different metrics you start to run out of metrics though. There are 7 in the kneesovertoesguy stuff, and he talks about a few more (split squat, sissy squat, nordic curl, foot lift). Then there are regular calisthenics stuff to consider. Well the coach I'm linking (kneesovertoes) has a mobility and strength check for the upper body as well that he's put his age old granny on and she's rehabbed from it to full mobility and function with quality of life strength.

I'm bring a whole perspective here.



gpseymour said:


> Your posts are so very full of assumptions about what others think. I can only suppose you've built this whole idea in your head of what martial artists think and do, and use it as a template when responding to others.



I'm just repeating what I've been saying this whole damn time while people are arguing with me that I'm wrong or naive. I haven't assumed a damn thing. 

His posts:
"This is why serious martial artists have a good, in-person, instructor, and so don't have to piece together from scratch.  *It is not possible for someone without considerable formal training to correct themselves.* You don't know what you don't know, and we tend to gloss over bad habits that creep in over the years.  This is true even for experienced black belts.  That is the value of an instructor that can provide feedback."
"My karate training, with some weight training, has allowed me to "keep dunking."  I could not have reached the level I'm at from anything youtube has to offer.  I've learned from the best so have no need for the inferior route. "

"How did Mike train? For one, he mostly trained in the basics. Not what you want to think about I'm sure, like every new student at some dojo you don't want to imagine that "martial arts training" is a lot of physical exercise and not that flashy. Does someone need to be in the room to tell Mike Tyson how to do a neck bridge? How to jump rope? Did he need some world renown expert to tell him to throw a medicine ball at the ground and do it over and over again? Nope. His form sure as hell didn't need correction. *Everything about Mike Tyson and most fighters is basic training. Anyone can knock you out without much technique, just physical power and speed.*"

And his reply:
"You are embarrassing yourself with your posts.  Your ignorance is overwhelming.  *You have no credibility with most everyone here, including Mike Tyson if he were to read your trash.  Please leave us out of your fantasy Youtube world and get some therapy.*"

0 dialogue, 0 reasoning, completely dismissive. Dude has no way to think about why he believes what he does, cannot respond to basic assertions about reality. Of course Mike Tyson trained mostly in physical conditioning. He got up every morning to run. He did tons of athletic training. Whether or not he uses good footwork or peekaboo, the heavy bag is building up his power. No matter what, he gets tougher and can learn from every fight/ match he goes through.

Where am I being assumptuous? Where is all dialogue being thrown out because I'm directly confronting their beliefs?


----------



## Diagen

I messed up the post a little, I am the one that started talking about Mike Tyson and basic training to clarify.


----------



## geezer

Diagen said:


> Where am I being *assumptuous*? Where is all dialogue being thrown out because I'm directly confronting their beliefs?


Hey, excuse me as I'm new to this thread and have been trying to catch up. Got this far. Never heard of the word "assumptuous", so I looked it up. It wasn't in most online dictionaries, but I finally found this:





__





						Presumptuous vs Assumptuous - What's the difference?
					





					wikidiff.com
				




Note that it simply states *"Not English"*. In other words, it is an _invented _term, a garbled misunderstanding of "presumtuous". That's OK. I also make mistakes in writing all the time. But in this case, it is oddly reflective of your attitude towards the martial arts and sports. You seem to assume to know far more than the evidence would indicate. 

You repeatedly deny the value of good coaching/instruction. Can you name any high level athlete that got there without good coaching? ...Because I sure can't think of any.

You repeatedly deny the value of developing great technique saying athleticism and physicality matter far more. No one denies the importance of athleticism and physicality in competitive sports, but especially in combative martial sports, like boxing, wrestling, Judo, BJJ, MMA, Muay Thai, and so forth, top competitors in each _weight class_ will approach a maximum personal limit as to strength, speed and athleticism. At that point superior skill and technique can be the tie-breaker, _the decisive element._

That you continue to deny this and argue with some very experienced martial artists and athletes on this forum suggests that, perhaps, _you_ are the fellow with ego issues here.  

But on the bright side, this leads me to reconsider your use of the word "assumptuous". Apparently it does not _yet _exist in English, but maybe it _should _be a word as it describes your posts perfectly! 

Consider the following proposed definition:

*Assumptuous *- Adjective. The quality of being both asinine and presumptuous at the same time.


----------



## Flying Crane

Diagen said:


> *I bet you that Day 1 when I did these exercises myself I did better than you. Hands down. You aren't athletic.*
> I bet I could probably powerlift more than you too. How much neck training and jaw training do you do? What kind of max effort isometrics do you do? Do you do jumps, sprints, anything like that? Clap push ups? Throwing? Pull ups?


Maybe so.  But I bet my dick is bigger than yours.


----------



## Diagen

geezer said:


> Hey, excuse me as I'm new to this thread and have been trying to catch up. Got this far. Never heard of the word "assumptuous", so I looked it up. It wasn't in most online dictionaries, but I finally found this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Presumptuous vs Assumptuous - What's the difference?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wikidiff.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note that it simply states *"Not English"*. In other words, it is an _invented _term, a garbled misunderstanding of "presumtuous". That's OK. I also make mistakes in writing all the time. But in this case, it is oddly reflective of your attitude towards the martial arts and sports. You seem to assume to know far more than the evidence would indicate.
> 
> You repeatedly deny the value of good coaching/instruction. Can you name any high level athlete that got there without good coaching? ...Because I sure can't think of any.
> 
> You repeatedly deny the value of developing great technique saying athleticism and physicality matter far more. No one denies the importance of athleticism and physicality in competitive sports, but especially in combative martial sports, like boxing, wrestling, Judo, BJJ, MMA, Muay Thai, and so forth, top competitors in each _weight class_ will approach a maximum personal limit as to strength, speed and athleticism. At that point superior skill and technique can be the tie-breaker, _the decisive element._
> 
> That you continue to deny this and argue with some very experienced martial artists and athletes on this forum suggests that, perhaps, _you_ are the fellow with ego issues here.
> 
> But on the bright side, this leads me to reconsider your use of the word "assumptuous". Apparently it does not _yet _exist in English, but maybe it _should _be a word as it describes your posts perfectly!
> 
> Consider the following proposed definition:
> 
> *Assumptuous *- Adjective. The quality of being both asinine and presumptuous at the same time.


lol you have misread what I posted, talk about intelligence. Correct grammar doesn't improve reading comprehension I know that much.
My entire point isn't about tie breakers. Why are you talking about similar weight class and as if everyone is a superb athlete in boxing and mma? They aren't. You have low and high athleticism in both sports. Your assessment of what I mean and what is going on in the world are both wrong.
Mike Tyson, since I've brought him up and is a good example, is not the standard of overall athleticism and physical power. He is top of his class. Francis Ngannou of UFC is top of his class in terms of power. Neither are normal for their weight class IN ANY WAY. Especially Mike Tyson, he was alive when everyone was a higher standard of boxer though so you may make the ASSUMPTION that that is the norm today and most pro fights of his weight class too. It isn't. 
You're talking about 1 - 10 people or so in American Boxing in any given decade, you get that right? As if everyone were superb athletes with steel jaws in pro fighting HAHA. And the true greats just took it further and further. People like Mike Tyson are an absolute rarity in Boxing and their equivalent in MMA just isn't possible because it's much more complicated and it's a young "sport".
*You don't have to be the best to win, just better than the competition.*

Why would you assume that everyone going pro is reaching the limit of their potential? How would you even be qualified to judge that when you can't even address the weakness of everyone's athleticism, toughness, power, strength, reaction time? 

You don't know what you don't know I guess! And that you don't know what you don't know is the point -- all of you seem to leave no gaps for interpretation or uncertainty. It's utterly moronic irony that you all accuse me of being _presumptuous_ when you are all so presumptuous about Martial Arts, sport Fighters and Physical Prowess (Fitness) in general.
I make the least assumptions and thus I find all of you to be *arbitrary*. This is just how it is. You get that one who makes less assumptions would find others who make more to be quite arbitrary and irrational, right? I'm sure you understand and that is exactly where I am standing.

What you're noticing is the opposite of assumption. Whether you're experienced or not doesn't make you very good or the best. None of you will claim you can beat Mike Tyson in a fight, right? Or am I wrong? If so, you're all below the standard of Mike Tyson.

Of course I agree that good technique is good. I said myself that one with greater mental presence and strength, using their IQ and by practicing, can develop their own technique. Why would you write out a few paragraphs that have no relevance?

You also assume that one who is a great fighter and self-taught would compete in sports or flaunt it where everyone can see. You forgot about the existence of criminals and anti-social types haha! Big flashy publicity doesn't draw everyone. Might draw you or you ASSUME it does, but some are averse, neutral, or barely interested in such things.
Those who can train alone and are anti-social tend to be more single-minded in their pursuits. Hence MIKE TYSON. A criminal. An absolute beast that merely needed a goal and peekaboo. How many more of those types are out there without a coach? And of those, how many are looking at fighting info online and getting in fights with groups and armed folk with knives and guns? I assure you that not everyone needs a coach to watch their form and encourage them.

Anyone can research online basics and even set up a video camera or mirror. Anyone can develop a sense of their center of balance and of how stable or immovable it is. It's called a mind-body connection and anyone can develop it to a much higher degree than you give credit. I know this because I believe that there are very high extremes to such things. 
I always assume that the potential is greater than what I can see with my eyes because I'm not ignorant.


----------



## Diagen

Flying Crane said:


> Maybe so.  But I bet my dick is bigger than yours.


You'd be wrong


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Diagen said:


> Why would you write out a few paragraphs that have no relevance?


----------



## Diagen

I'm not sure what your intent is. Is it agreement or are you claiming it's an ironic statement?


----------



## geezer

Diagen said:


> lol you have misread what I posted, talk about intelligence. Correct grammar doesn't improve reading comprehension I know that much.
> My entire point isn't about tie breakers. Why are you talking about similar weight class and as if everyone is a superb athlete in boxing and mma? They aren't. You have low and high athleticism in both sports. Your assessment of what I mean and what is going on in the world are both wrong.
> Mike Tyson, since I've brought him up and is a good example, is not the standard of overall athleticism and physical power. He is top of his class. Francis Ngannou of UFC is top of his class in terms of power. Neither are normal for their weight class IN ANY WAY. Especially Mike Tyson, he was alive when everyone was a higher standard of boxer though so you may make the ASSUMPTION that that is the norm today and most pro fights of his weight class too. It isn't.
> You're talking about 1 - 10 people or so in American Boxing in any given decade, you get that right? As if everyone were superb athletes with steel jaws in pro fighting HAHA. And the true greats just took it further and further. People like Mike Tyson are an absolute rarity in Boxing and their equivalent in MMA just isn't possible because it's much more complicated and it's a young "sport".
> *You don't have to be the best to win, just better than the competition.*
> 
> Why would you assume that everyone going pro is reaching the limit of their potential? How would you even be qualified to judge that when you can't even address the weakness of everyone's athleticism, toughness, power, strength, reaction time?
> 
> You don't know what you don't know I guess! And that you don't know what you don't know is the point -- all of you seem to leave no gaps for interpretation or uncertainty. It's utterly moronic irony that you all accuse me of being _presumptuous_ when you are all so presumptuous about Martial Arts, sport Fighters and Physical Prowess (Fitness) in general.
> I make the least assumptions and thus I find all of you to be *arbitrary*. This is just how it is. You get that one who makes less assumptions would find others who make more to be quite arbitrary and irrational, right? I'm sure you understand and that is exactly where I am standing.
> 
> What you're noticing is the opposite of assumption. Whether you're experienced or not doesn't make you very good or the best. None of you will claim you can beat Mike Tyson in a fight, right? Or am I wrong? If so, you're all below the standard of Mike Tyson.
> 
> Of course I agree that good technique is good. I said myself that one with greater mental presence and strength, using their IQ and by practicing, can develop their own technique. Why would you write out a few paragraphs that have no relevance?
> 
> You also assume that one who is a great fighter and self-taught would compete in sports or flaunt it where everyone can see. You forgot about the existence of criminals and anti-social types haha! Big flashy publicity doesn't draw everyone. Might draw you or you ASSUME it does, but some are averse, neutral, or barely interested in such things.
> Those who can train alone and are anti-social tend to be more single-minded in their pursuits. Hence MIKE TYSON. A criminal. An absolute beast that merely needed a goal and peekaboo. How many more of those types are out there without a coach? And of those, how many are looking at fighting info online and getting in fights with groups and armed folk with knives and guns? I assure you that not everyone needs a coach to watch their form and encourage them.
> 
> Anyone can research online basics and even set up a video camera or mirror. Anyone can develop a sense of their center of balance and of how stable or immovable it is. It's called a mind-body connection and anyone can develop it to a much higher degree than you give credit. I know this because I believe that there are very high extremes to such things.
> I always assume that the potential is greater than what I can see with my eyes because I'm not ignorant.


I find your remarks positively_ assumptuous_, my good fellow! 


Diagen said:


> You'd be wrong.


How you would know this baffles me. Why you would post it baffles me even more.


----------



## geezer

Diagen said:


> I'm not sure what your intent is. Is it agreement or are you claiming it's an ironic statement?


I had the same question, but considering the context ...I'm guessing _irony_.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Diagen said:


> I'm not sure what your intent is. Is it agreement or are you claiming it's an ironic statement?


A mix. There are many people here, yourself included but not just yourself, that are typing out paragraphs unrelated to when/why new students quit martial arts. Which is fine, but made me laugh at this statement, so wanted to point out this statement both for yourself, and to emphasize for others.


----------



## Diagen

geezer said:


> I find your remarks positively_ assumptuous_, my good fellow!
> 
> How you would know this baffles me. Why you would post it baffles me even more.


It's not assumptuous I've seen different fighters and fights in different weight classes. Many boxing matches are like exhibition matches where they don't try very hard and gas out pretty easily if they do put in effort. Their punches are mostly jabs and unvigorous straights. Many punches miss. They treat it like a hobby. It's completely unprofessional and I mean that as a personal criticism of the fighters.
Very sad state of things. Very unvigorous. They go for win via points and that's just way too gamified, no reason to have power then. Technique often isn't that good either. Overall unprofessional.

MMA has some good athletes, good power. Wins are generally by knockout or submission TKO. It's doing alright.



Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> A mix. There are many people here, yourself included but not just yourself, that are typing out paragraphs unrelated to when/why new students quit martial arts. Which is fine, but made me laugh at this statement, so wanted to point out this statement both for yourself, and to emphasize for others.



Ah but the original point is that most places aren't training right, so why would they have many people going there.


----------



## Buka

Diagen said:


> If they are not good at 10 different metrics you start to run out of metrics though. There are 7 in the kneesovertoesguy stuff, and he talks about a few more (split squat, sissy squat, nordic curl, foot lift). Then there are regular calisthenics stuff to consider. Well the coach I'm linking (kneesovertoes) has a mobility and strength check for the upper body as well that he's put his age old granny on and she's rehabbed from it to full mobility and function with quality of life strength.
> 
> I'm bring a whole perspective here.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just repeating what I've been saying this whole damn time while people are arguing with me that I'm wrong or naive. I haven't assumed a damn thing.
> 
> His posts:
> "This is why serious martial artists have a good, in-person, instructor, and so don't have to piece together from scratch.  *It is not possible for someone without considerable formal training to correct themselves.* You don't know what you don't know, and we tend to gloss over bad habits that creep in over the years.  This is true even for experienced black belts.  That is the value of an instructor that can provide feedback."
> "My karate training, with some weight training, has allowed me to "keep dunking."  I could not have reached the level I'm at from anything youtube has to offer.  I've learned from the best so have no need for the inferior route. "
> 
> "How did Mike train? For one, he mostly trained in the basics. Not what you want to think about I'm sure, like every new student at some dojo you don't want to imagine that "martial arts training" is a lot of physical exercise and not that flashy. Does someone need to be in the room to tell Mike Tyson how to do a neck bridge? How to jump rope? Did he need some world renown expert to tell him to throw a medicine ball at the ground and do it over and over again? Nope. His form sure as hell didn't need correction. *Everything about Mike Tyson and most fighters is basic training. Anyone can knock you out without much technique, just physical power and speed.*"
> 
> And his reply:
> "You are embarrassing yourself with your posts.  Your ignorance is overwhelming.  *You have no credibility with most everyone here, including Mike Tyson if he were to read your trash.  Please leave us out of your fantasy Youtube world and get some therapy.*"
> 
> 0 dialogue, 0 reasoning, completely dismissive. Dude has no way to think about why he believes what he does, cannot respond to basic assertions about reality. Of course Mike Tyson trained mostly in physical conditioning. He got up every morning to run. He did tons of athletic training. Whether or not he uses good footwork or peekaboo, the heavy bag is building up his power. No matter what, he gets tougher and can learn from every fight/ match he goes through.
> 
> Where am I being assumptuous? Where is all dialogue being thrown out because I'm directly confronting their beliefs?


Forgive me for being curious, since you learned from the best, who did you learn from?


----------



## Diagen

Buka said:


> Forgive me for being curious, since you learned from the best, who did you learn from?


Looking at pro fighters for one. Looked at karate, muay thai, boxing, some baguazhang, judo, bjj, sumo, some others. Seen some instructor's videos online that are a bit individualistic as well, you can find a number of them shared on this forum.
In terms of training the body generally there are a lot of big names like Mark Rippetoe, Jim Wendler, the kneesovertoesguy whatever his name is, Olympic weightlifter training is semi-public such as the Bulgarian method (different methodologies here, suggesting that different training can get you similar results) and Chinese training is semi-public they do stuff like round back deadlift for flexible back strength and body build to prevent injury especially the arms and back of shoulders and scapula, as well as different weighted stretches like you see shown in the 7 mobility checklist video from kneesovertoesguy. Steve Justa is good, very impressive stuff, Brooks Kubik good stuff very common sense as well, Paul Anderson is very good, greatest backlift and hip lift around. Olde Strongmen like Zass Alexander and The Mighty Atom had good stuff, they're all "overcoming isometric" strength, partial lifts to get the load through the bones and tendons essentially and steel bending or steel chain breaking with body parts. Steel bending has a very good effect. Modern strongman training is basically historical and very good, all very strong. Charles Poliquin is a big Olympic coach for multiple sports and is good. I've picked up a lot over the past decade. Dragondoor.com has some good articles on isometrics you can check out too. Labor training is a good concept and you find people working out according to that philosophy, similar to Steve Justa and Brooks Kubik's training philosophy I guess and it works.

All in all I have the big picture but don't train too much, but the peak athletes of each field have very clear and objective performance that those that don't do the research, don't look at the training philosphy and methods, just don't have the insight to come to the same conclusions as I. If you look at each of these athletes you will see amazing feats and name drops to others with similarly great feats that are unique to their training methods based on their differing training philosophy.


----------



## Diagen

What's most important is to keep up mental pressure in your training and your thinking about training, so that you train in the best way possible. You can't develop mind-body and become an absolute unit with incredible physical and martial prowess without incredible mental strength and presence. Keep up the mental pressure.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Diagen said:


> What's most important is to keep up mental pressure in your training and your thinking about training, so that you train in the best way possible. You can't develop mind-body and become an absolute unit with incredible physical and martial prowess without incredible mental strength and presence. Keep up the mental pressure.


You are clearly an absolute unit.


----------



## Diagen

Bill Mattocks said:


> You are clearly an absolute unit.


If you want to confront anything I say go ahead. Success isn't easy but it's dead simple and straightforward.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Diagen said:


> Ah but the original point is that most places aren't training right, so why would they have many people going there.


Which is a relevant point. A lot of the discussion, however, is not.


----------



## _Simon_

Buka said:


> Forgive me for being curious, since you learned from the best, who did you learn from?


He learned from YouTube. True story.


----------



## Flying Crane

_Simon_ said:


> He learned from YouTube. True story.


That is certainly the impression I got from his response.  I didn’t see anything that indicated he actually worked with anyone.  Just looked at stuff.


----------



## Diagen

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Which is a relevant point. A lot of the discussion, however, is not.


No one wants to respond to what I'm saying because it falls outside their narrow understanding of what I'm saying. 
*Basically they don't want my point to elaborate itself through engagement with what I'm saying.*


----------



## Diagen

Flying Crane said:


> That is certainly the impression I got from his response.  I didn’t see anything that indicated he actually worked with anyone.  Just looked at stuff.


I only get this kind of yawning dismissal from those who are established but have no way of engaging with what I'm saying without revealing their own failures and shortcomings.

If you want to be the best then why not talk about how to become such. If you don't want to become the best then why do you call yourself a martial artist? Like gpseymour said himself in another thread, it makes you a hobbyist.


----------



## Flying Crane

Diagen said:


> I only get this kind of yawning dismissal from those who are established but have no way of engaging with what I'm saying without revealing their own failures and shortcomings.
> 
> If you want to be the best then why not talk about how to become such. If you don't want to become the best then why do you call yourself a martial artist? Like gpseymour said himself in another thread, it makes you a hobbyist.


So is my assessment incorrect?  Have you actually worked with anyone?


----------



## Diagen

Flying Crane said:


> So is my assessment incorrect?  Have you actually worked with anyone?


Do you owe your commitment to martial arts to your martial arts instructor?


----------



## Flying Crane

Diagen said:


> Do you owe your commitment to martial arts to your martial arts instructor?


By your continued evasion of a direct answer, I can only assume that you have not. 

Let the record show that @Diagen refuses to answer the question, allowing for a presumptive “no”.  He has not trained with anyone.


----------



## Diagen

Flying Crane said:


> By your continued evasion of a direct answer, I can only assume that you have not.
> 
> Let the record show that @Diagen refuses to answer the question, allowing for a presumptive “no”.  He has not trained with anyone.


It is true that I train with no one. I have stated this in other places, for the record.


----------



## Tez3

Diagen said:


> It is true that I train with no one. I have stated this in other places, for the record.



Actually, why are you here?


----------



## Flying Crane

Diagen said:


> It is true that I train with no one. I have stated this in other places, for the record.


And the other part of this answer that you continue to duck:  you never have.


----------



## Diagen

Flying Crane said:


> And the other part of this answer that you continue to duck:  you never have.


My bad I didn't word it correctly. I NEVER have trained with ANYONE besides ~10 instances of sparring with friends. Not ducking anything.


----------



## Diagen

Tez3 said:


> Actually, why are you here?


Does this have to do with the lack of martial arts instructor?

I'm trying to bring knowledge, then outdo those that do not use it by using said knowledge. In the end the culture should evolve and that's my goal.


----------



## Flying Crane

Diagen said:


> My bad I didn't word it correctly. I NEVER have trained with ANYONE besides ~10 instances of sparring with friends. Not ducking anything.


Thank you for the belated honesty.  

So to echo @Tez3, why do you believe you can come here to a martial arts forum, with zero martial arts training yourself, and “school” a bunch of martial arts folks?  People here who have decades in training, likely decades more than you have been alive in many cases.  We can see through your nonsense.  This isn’t difficult.  Why do you do it?

If you are genuinely interested in martial arts, then this is a place where you can find a lot of informed opinions and good information, even among those of us who often disagree about things.  But you need to drop the nonsense and start listening and you can then learn something.  If you cannot do that, you will only find derision.


----------



## Tez3

Diagen said:


> Does this have to do with the lack of martial arts instructor?
> 
> I'm trying to bring knowledge, then outdo those that do not use it by using said knowledge. In the end the culture should evolve and that's my goal.



No.
I wanted to know your reasons for joining basically, what you were looking for. As it says we are a discussion group, a martial arts discussion group.

You haven't brought knowledge, you've brought your opinion, which is fine we can discuss that, we can agree, disagree or say 'meh'.  You aren't out doing anyone, basically because your knowledge is flawed. You've come here with the idea that you are talking to country bumpkins, only to find that the make up of members here is wide, scientists,medics, military, academics, engineers and much, much more.

What culture? My culture is very different from yours, in fact I'm part of several cultures as most people are. If you mean the 'martial arts culture' even there you will find different cultures.

Are you trying to teach us to fight? Or are you saying we should all have brain injuries so we can fight better? Your words on military PTSD are seriously bang out of order, it's clear you have no knowledge or expertise in the subject you think you are educating us on.

I'm going to reiterate my concerns for you over your fixation and incorrect statements on anger and aggression. I think your thoughts on this along with your hyper vigilance will lead you to do something that will be regrettable and perhaps tragic.

If you post statements/facts we agree with, then we will say we agree, we aren't arguing for the sake of it. However much of what you wrote is unintelligible sadly, please read and see if you can rectify some of your writing. If you want us to accept your views, you have to do is give us the courtesy of accepting ours, then we can have an interesting and fruitful discussion, it won't necessarily change anyone's mind (it won't change facts either) but is a pleasant way to spend some time as well as give good for thought.


----------



## Diagen

Flying Crane said:


> Thank you for the belated honesty.
> 
> So to echo @Tez3, why do you believe you can come here to a martial arts forum, with zero martial arts training yourself, and “school” a bunch of martial arts folks?  People here who have decades in training, likely decades more than you have been alive in many cases.  We can see through your nonsense.  This isn’t difficult.  Why do you do it?
> 
> If you are genuinely interested in martial arts, then this is a place where you can find a lot of informed opinions and good information, even among those of us who often disagree about things.  But you need to drop the nonsense and start listening and you can then learn something.  If you cannot do that, you will only find derision.


Well all excellence is decided by the competition but I haven't met anyone here that thinks they can beat Mike Tyson in a fight, MMA kind of fight even. His training is not a secret and it boils down to physical prowess of which there is a GREAT mental component but I'm not getting much engagement on that matter, and then a specific technique to avoid punches mostly -- but he was TOUGH.
So everyone here that has "decades of training" loses to a guy with maybe 5 - 8 years of training and no one is interested in how they can learn by example. 
You yourself need to drop the nonsense and learn. You think you know better like everyone else here, hence the severe lack of engagement with the topic and all attention directed at my character and personal ability. None of you have anything to teach me. If I want to learn some specific techniques I can quite literally google it. What separates the best from not-the-best is not technique even, it's plain and simple.

I will continue to confront you and everyone else's need to have authority, I won't let anyone try and limit my potential. You all limit your own potential even what in the hell is the point. Absolutely unnecessary.


----------



## Diagen

Tez3 said:


> No.
> I wanted to know your reasons for joining basically, what you were looking for. As it says we are a discussion group, a martial arts discussion group.
> 
> You haven't brought knowledge, you've brought your opinion, which is fine we can discuss that, we can agree, disagree or say 'meh'.  You aren't out doing anyone, basically because your knowledge is flawed. You've come here with the idea that you are talking to country bumpkins, only to find that the make up of members here is wide, scientists,medics, military, academics, engineers and much, much more.
> 
> What culture? My culture is very different from yours, in fact I'm part of several cultures as most people are. If you mean the 'martial arts culture' even there you will find different cultures.
> 
> Are you trying to teach us to fight? Or are you saying we should all have brain injuries so we can fight better? Your words on military PTSD are seriously bang out of order, it's clear you have no knowledge or expertise in the subject you think you are educating us on.
> 
> I'm going to reiterate my concerns for you over your fixation and incorrect statements on anger and aggression. I think your thoughts on this along with your hyper vigilance will lead you to do something that will be regrettable and perhaps tragic.
> 
> If you post statements/facts we agree with, then we will say we agree, we aren't arguing for the sake of it. However much of what you wrote is unintelligible sadly, please read and see if you can rectify some of your writing. If you want us to accept your views, you have to do is give us the courtesy of accepting ours, then we can have an interesting and fruitful discussion, it won't necessarily change anyone's mind (it won't change facts either) but is a pleasant way to spend some time as well as give good for thought.


I haven't brought too much in the way of knowledge yet because NO ONE WILL HAVE A GOD DAMNED DISCUSSION. It all falls to the TANGENT of my own ability. No one here is willing to discuss reality just my own ability and there is a CONSTANT GOD FORSAKEN NEED BY ALL OF YOU TO DRAW ATTENTION TO ME instead of the TOPIC.

This is ridiculous and the only reason I'm not swearing every other sentence is I'll get banned. Can ANYONE talk about the topic without it being about how knowlegdeable and great you all are you egotistical bastards.

Stop talking about me. Please. I'm not that important here. I have spoken to more people with greater backgrounds than you know. Stop talking about how great you all are. I don't care about irrelevant things. Talk about the topic. How does your background relate to the topic at hand? No matter what it is, if it's relevant, I will discuss it with you.

ffs none of you can have an argument even. How the hell is there discussion if one can't discuss anything if there's a disagreement? You get that right? Just falling on your credentials is lazy and ridiculous. That's not productive discourse. EVOLVE. PUT IN EFFORT. Please. Stop talking about how credible you are or discredible I am, all that matters is the TOPIC AT HAND. Focus on the discussion. Communicate.

Please.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Diagen said:


> Well all excellence is decided by the competition but I haven't met anyone here that thinks they can beat Mike Tyson in a fight, MMA kind of fight even. His training is not a secret and it boils down to physical prowess of which there is a GREAT mental component but I'm not getting much engagement on that matter, and then a specific technique to avoid punches mostly -- but he was TOUGH.
> So everyone here that has "decades of training" loses to a guy with maybe 5 - 8 years of training and no one is interested in how they can learn by example.
> You yourself need to drop the nonsense and learn. You think you know better like everyone else here, hence the severe lack of engagement with the topic and all attention directed at my character and personal ability. None of you have anything to teach me. If I want to learn some specific techniques I can quite literally google it. What separates the best from not-the-best is not technique even, it's plain and simple.
> 
> I will continue to confront you and everyone else's need to have authority, I won't let anyone try and limit my potential. You all limit your own potential even what in the hell is the point. Absolutely unnecessary.


He got in the ring in 1985, and stayed in the ring until 2005, so that's much more than 5-8 years of training. Also, we all know how he got so good-motivation, genetics, a good coach, and mental will. It's not exactly some huge shock that you'd be informing us of. And you show your ignorance with statements like "If I want to learn some specific techniques I can quite literally google it". That's the part that you need the trainer for, not how to get tough. Which you'll probably learn if you ever do decide to enter a ring with your youtube'd techniques.


----------



## Steve

Diagen said:


> Well all excellence is decided by the competition but I haven't met anyone here that thinks they can beat Mike Tyson in a fight.



How do you know that?  You know very little about the folks who train here.  For what it's worth, I will say I don't think many folks anywhere could beat Tyson in a fight when he was in his prime.  Nowadays?  I can think of a few folks on this forum I'd give even odds.  

on the other hand, a few folks on this forum probably believe they could take Mike Tyson, and I sure would love to see them try.  Would be truly eye opening for them, I expect... like watching a bad American Idol audition...  the moment they realize they've been lied to.


----------



## Diagen

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> He got in the ring in 1985, and stayed in the ring until 2005, so that's much more than 5-8 years of training. Also, we all know how he got so good-motivation, genetics, a good coach, and mental will. It's not exactly some huge shock that you'd be informing us of. And you show your ignorance with statements like "If I want to learn some specific techniques I can quite literally google it". That's the part that you need the trainer for, not how to get tough. Which you'll probably learn if you ever do decide to enter a ring with your youtube'd techniques.


More than 5 - 8 years but he was pretty good early enough in his career.

GENETICS. God I hate this one. Just because you don't understand and want a reason to stop comparing yourself to the guy EVERYONE JUST PULLS GENETICS OUT OF THEIR HAT. Please stop making crap up like everyone else. Pure ego defense mechanism. Genetics is the scapegoat explanation.
Motivation and mental will, sure.  He put in the work, was aggressive to begin with, and wanted to destroy other fighters. It's not a huge shock or informative but the BEGINNING of this discussion. Why is there a lack of will and motivation to become the best here? Where is it? Why is there a lack of will and motivation in general?
Now technique can be developed with a camera and or mirror and by comparing to others, or improvised and possibly quite original through experience. The #1 thing going for guys like Tyson is his basic attributes. Physical and Mental. Now there are different kinds of top level fighters, some have quicker reflexes and can slip punches by seeing them basically. This would reduce the need for such technique, so theoretically if Mike Tyson had quicker reflexes and good eyes he could just slip punches by seeing them, without any technique.
This would be a fighter that can destroy everyone with 0 technique trained. It's not that difficult to imagine either. If you have an _intelligent_ fighter, very intelligent, with quick reflexes and great eyes, tough and powerful like Mike Tyson, he could use and pick up 100 techniques just by seeing them or create his own without needing to worry about that.

It's just a fact that the very simple basic attributes of a person determine their success. That means physical attributes but mental ones as well. That means IQ too. Willpower. Intelligence. Emotional strength. Courage. Physical strength. Speed. Agility. So on and so forth.


----------



## Diagen

Steve said:


> How do you know that?  You know very little about the folks who train here.  For what it's worth, I will say I don't think many folks anywhere could beat Tyson in a fight when he was in his prime.  Nowadays?  I can think of a few folks on this forum I'd give even odds.
> 
> on the other hand, a few folks on this forum probably believe they could take Mike Tyson, and I sure would love to see them try.  Would be truly eye opening for them, I expect... like watching a bad American Idol audition...  the moment they realize they've been lied to.


If competition is low then there is less motivation to become the best. Competition can be better or worse in every sport in whatever decade for instance. Evolution is driven by pressure basically. If you see excellence you strive higher. If you don't even realize that someone can deadlift 1100 lbs, and most people can train to deadlift 700 lbs, I don't think most people training and trying right now to reach that goal would be.
I don't know who is lying to who about their ability. Pretty sure everyone that thinks they can take Mike Tyson come to that conclusion on their own man.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Diagen said:


> More than 5 - 8 years but he was pretty good early enough in his career.
> 
> GENETICS. God I hate this one. Just because you don't understand and want a reason to stop comparing yourself to the guy EVERYONE JUST PULLS GENETICS OUT OF THEIR HAT. Please stop making crap up like everyone else. Pure ego defense mechanism. Genetics is the scapegoat explanation.
> Motivation and mental will, sure.  He put in the work, was aggressive to begin with, and wanted to destroy other fighters. It's not a huge shock or informative but the BEGINNING of this discussion. Why is there a lack of will and motivation to become the best here? Where is it? Why is there a lack of will and motivation in general?
> Now technique can be developed with a camera and or mirror and by comparing to others, or improvised and possibly quite original through experience. The #1 thing going for guys like Tyson is his basic attributes. Physical and Mental. Now there are different kinds of top level fighters, some have quicker reflexes and can slip punches by seeing them basically. This would reduce the need for such technique, so theoretically if Mike Tyson had quicker reflexes and good eyes he could just slip punches by seeing them, without any technique.
> This would be a fighter that can destroy everyone with 0 technique trained. It's not that difficult to imagine either. If you have an _intelligent_ fighter, very intelligent, with quick reflexes and great eyes, tough and powerful like Mike Tyson, he could use and pick up 100 techniques just by seeing them or create his own without needing to worry about that.
> 
> It's just a fact that the very simple basic attributes of a person determine their success. That means physical attributes but mental ones as well. That means IQ too. Willpower. Intelligence. Emotional strength. Courage. Physical strength. Speed. Agility. So on and so forth.


Genetics are a huge factor. The most obvious/visible example would be in a different sport-basketball. If you're too small, height-wise, your chances of playing in the NBA are extremely reduced. Not the only factor, but a clear difference. Other sports don't have the obvious visible thing like height, but it's there.

Also, who said that there is a lack of will and motivation to become the best? What are you using to measure that? We have at least one former olympic tkd'er in this forum, from what I recall. I've trained and fenced with olympic fencers and brought the same amount of motivation for those years. One of the people you've been arguing with, IIRC, manages UFC events. I'm sure others on here have their own similar strives to be the best. 

Also, if you want to become the best, you should learn technique. I can't think of a single elite fighter that has no technique/skill. They are far better than the average person in that regard, even those that are known for just being tough or having quick reflexes.

Finally-along the lines of what Steve said, there are people on here who I'd put money on over Tyson nowadays. Full disclosure- I would not include myself on that list. There are also people I'd put over Tyson when he was 18. Prime, not so much.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Diagen said:


> My bad I didn't word it correctly. I NEVER have trained with ANYONE besides ~10 instances of sparring with friends. Not ducking anything.


So, to sum up... you have no training, no education, and no experience, but you think you know more than people who have both MA training and academic credentials. Gotcha. #facepalm


----------



## Steve

Diagen said:


> More than 5 - 8 years but he was pretty good early enough in his career.
> 
> GENETICS. God I hate this one. Just because you don't understand and want a reason to stop comparing yourself to the guy EVERYONE JUST PULLS GENETICS OUT OF THEIR HAT. Please stop making crap up like everyone else. Pure ego defense mechanism. Genetics is the scapegoat explanation.
> Motivation and mental will, sure.  He put in the work, was aggressive to begin with, and wanted to destroy other fighters. It's not a huge shock or informative but the BEGINNING of this discussion. Why is there a lack of will and motivation to become the best here? Where is it? Why is there a lack of will and motivation in general?



I have a friend who is 125 lbs max.  He's a little guy. Tough as heck, very skilled.  Marine veteran, BJJ black belt, excellent boxing, cardio for days... never gets tired.  But he'll never be a big person, and he will always be giving up a significant advantage to his coach, who is a 260 lbs BJJ black belt.  The bear can't help being a bear.  Genetics.  It's a thing.


----------



## Diagen

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Genetics are a huge factor. The most obvious/visible example would be in a different sport-basketball. If you're too small, height-wise, your chances of playing in the NBA are extremely reduced. Not the only factor, but a clear difference. Other sports don't have the obvious visible thing like height, but it's there.
> 
> Also, who said that there is a lack of will and motivation to become the best? What are you using to measure that? We have at least one former olympic tkd'er in this forum, from what I recall. I've trained and fenced with olympic fencers and brought the same amount of motivation for those years. One of the people you've been arguing with, IIRC, manages UFC events. I'm sure others on here have their own similar strives to be the best.
> 
> Also, if you want to become the best, you should learn technique. I can't think of a single elite fighter that has no technique/skill. They are far better than the average person in that regard, even those that are known for just being tough or having quick reflexes.
> 
> Finally-along the lines of what Steve said, there are people on here who I'd put money on over Tyson nowadays. Full disclosure- I would not include myself on that list. There are also people I'd put over Tyson when he was 18. Prime, not so much.


Haha the point about NBA isn't that bad but height is an oddly specific trait. It isn't general ability and there have been people as short as 5'10 or something in NBA with a good career. Eddie Hall, world record deadlift and generally peak strongman is 6'3 and everyone else in the sport tends to be a few inches taller at least. 
It's a false equivalency because you're trying to explain the result with something you *imagine* to be the cause: Genetics. You have no clue if it's genetics. 
Only somewhat tangential: You have no clue why someone grows incredibly tall either, since such people are usually unusually tall within their extended family as well. There are hormones responsible for height and if these glands are over-stimulated while they're growing (for WHATEVER reason, including inheritences that may or MAY NOT be genetics) they tend to be taller. I wouldn't be so reductive, it makes no sense being so presumptuous! You don't know what you don't know! Dead serious here.

Technique is definitely important I agree. The point remains that intelligence, mind-body, creativity and learning capacity determines what you can both CREATE and train for with or without a coach. If you have trouble with technique, you have trouble with technique. If it's easy for you, it's easy for you. The cause is intelligence, mind-body and/or proprioception (mental sense of body location, can you touch your elbow with eyes close ez pz high speed, can you balance on one leg with eyes closed, AND SO ON), visualization ability (easy to train and really really helps shadow boxing/ fighting), concentration, diffuse awareness (force of which determines feel for environment, sense of people around you, so on), experience using the body in physical tasks, strength, speed, and conditioning. Technique is determined by the fighter not the coach. *Anyone can create their own technique and if their mind is LOGICAL, VIGOROUS AND INTELLIGENT THEY WILL SUCCEED.*

Given that fighting is about feedback of performance I'm surprised there isn't some commonly circulated training paradigm and sense of priority. It's left to coaches and their sporadic research and experience to figure stuff out. Lack of culture is holding back the population of competitors but not the few with the ability to "Quest" well. Questing for knowledge, insight, piecing things together and having the goal in mind at all times, constantly working for it. That's me.

How does one measure motivation and will? How does one build their diligence and willpower? With this I think you'll find human beings are quite lacking. Humans like to specialize in things that make their life easier. That's just the species. How do you specialize in making your life more difficult haha? *Everyone getting into something wants it sorted out and a rubric and standards and training methods to follow and work for. This is part of human weakness but being part of its creation should be better than the created product. In this way one's engagement with the goal, concepts, training paradigms, information, should be the training and such always CREATES culture and the products BECOME the culture. So why is there so little of this? !?!?!?!??!?!?!??!??!?!?!?!?!?!?*

I know the _goal_ of a common training paradigm and common perspective is difficult but you can't reach that without confrontation, contention and difficulty.

Much of this is for another thread though.


----------



## Steve

Diagen said:


> If competition is low then there is less motivation to become the best.


Competitive spirit can be a great motivator, but prioritizing being the best at something can actually be counter productive.  For some, with the right combination of skills, traits, and natural aptitude, it may motivate them to excellence.  For others, the need to be "the best" would discourage them from taking risks, because they may rather be the biggest fish in a small pond than risk being exposed as being mediocre.



Diagen said:


> Competition can be better or worse in every sport in whatever decade for instance. Evolution is driven by pressure basically.



Developing expertise is not evolution.  It's learning a skill and getting better at it.  



Diagen said:


> If you see excellence you strive higher. If you don't even realize that someone can deadlift 1100 lbs, and most people can train to deadlift 700 lbs, I don't think most people training and trying right now to reach that goal would be.



This may be true, but what if someone has no interest in deadlifting 700 lbs?  What if they prioritize something else?  It seems like what you're doing is projecting your own priorities onto other people.  I have absolutely zero interest in being able to take Mike Tyson in an MMA match.  



Diagen said:


> I don't know who is lying to who about their ability. Pretty sure everyone that thinks they can take Mike Tyson come to that conclusion on their own man.


Yeah, like I said, as I think about the people who post on this forum, I can think of a few that I'd put some money on.


----------



## Diagen

Steve said:


> I have a friend who is 125 lbs max.  He's a little guy. Tough as heck, very skilled.  Marine veteran, BJJ black belt, excellent boxing, cardio for days... never gets tired.  But he'll never be a big person, and he will always be giving up a significant advantage to his coach, who is a 260 lbs BJJ black belt.  The bear can't help being a bear.  Genetics.  It's a thing.



BS plenty of scrawny dudes full cardio athlete have become big when they seriously sat down, sick of being small, and started lifting weights with training methodologies that WORK for EVERYONE. You are stuck in the past man you are way out of the loop. The culture in so many places has evolved way past where you're at in your perspective man. Other places have taken the scrawny cardio junkies and turned them into mass monsters I assure you. It has NOTHING to do with genetics. Epigenetics? Fine. You can say it's about expression of DNA. Amazing non-point. Because *everyone* has control over the expression of their genes man. 
If your friend is willing to read up on weight lifting, strength training, he will experience mass gains. Use 5 - 10 rep range, 5 sets. That's about 75% of his max on the barbell lifts. Max reps on last set. Squat heavy 4x a week. Deadlift at least once a week, 1 set for 5 reps (using most weight you can). Just tell him to read Starting Strength and he will most definitely go up in size. He needs to EAT there is nothing genetics about it. It's metabolic. He's just burning up all his fuel it's as simple as that.


----------



## Steve

Diagen said:


> BS plenty of scrawny dudes full cardio athlete have become big when they seriously sat down, sick of being small, and started lifting weights with training methodologies that WORK for EVERYONE. You are stuck in the past man you are way out of the loop. The culture in so many places has evolved way past where you're at in your perspective man. Other places have taken the scrawny cardio junkies and turned them into mass monsters I assure you. It has NOTHING to do with genetics. Epigenetics? Fine. You can say it's about expression of DNA. Amazing non-point. Because *everyone* has control over the expression of their genes man.
> If your friend is willing to read up on weight lifting, strength training, he will experience mass gains. Use 5 - 10 rep range, 5 sets. That's about 75% of his max on the barbell lifts. Max reps on last set. Squat heavy 4x a week. Deadlift at least once a week, 1 set for 5 reps (using most weight you can). Just tell him to read Starting Strength and he will most definitely go up in size. He needs to EAT there is nothing genetics about it. It's metabolic. He's just burning up all his fuel it's as simple as that.



Clearly, I can't convince you otherwise.  

How about this?  What if in order for this person to be big, he would be less capable and lose function because he would need to prioritize lifting weights and eating protein shakes (or whatever weight regimen you might have in mind), over training boxing, wrestling, BJJ, and muay thai?  Because he isn't genetically a large person, he would need to put so much energy into being large, it would come at the expense of everything else?  Genetics.  

As Andre the Giant said in the Princess Bride, "It's not my fault I'm the biggest and strongest. I don't even exercise!"


----------



## Diagen

Steve said:


> Competitive spirit can be a great motivator, but prioritizing being the best at something can actually be counter productive.  For some, with the right combination of skills, traits, and natural aptitude, it may motivate them to excellence.  For others, the need to be "the best" would discourage them from taking risks, because they may rather be the biggest fish in a small pond than risk being exposed as being mediocre.
> 
> 
> 
> Developing expertise is not evolution.  It's learning a skill and getting better at it.
> 
> 
> 
> This may be true, but what if someone has no interest in deadlifting 700 lbs?  What if they prioritize something else?  It seems like what you're doing is projecting your own priorities onto other people.  I have absolutely zero interest in being able to take Mike Tyson in an MMA match.
> 
> 
> Yeah, like I said, as I think about the people who post on this forum, I can think of a few that I'd put some money on.


What is this psychological crap? If one can't overcome their own mind then they can't become the best no matter what, it's oxymoronic to talk like you are. You can't use kiddy gloves with someone and get world class. Not possible. You can't just sort of walk backwards into it. You need the goal and to work for it if you want to reach it.

Fighting is not just SKILL what is this crap?

Prioritizing? They are lacking fundamentally in having a GOAL AT ALL if deadlifting heavy conflicts with their fighting goals. What is this crap about priorities? If you don't deadlift heavy you don't have the strength you NEED. You can use long jumps with a weight vest or whatever but you need heavy load on the posterior chain NO MATTER WHAT. Deadlift is the most direct route for direct strength gains. Man you need to get involved with the culture you're behind, I ASSURE YOU. What kind of drive do they have for anything? Absolutely nihilistic crap. 
How are you a martial artist? You're a hobbyist and that doesn't make you a martial artist.

Eh. Not in his prime though! That's the issue, Mike Tyson shouldn't be the best or top 100! Should be lower on the list. Where's the damn evolution?


----------



## Dirty Dog

Steve said:


> This may be true, but what if someone has no interest in deadlifting 700 lbs?  What if they prioritize something else?  It seems like what you're doing is projecting your own priorities onto other people.  I have absolutely zero interest in being able to take Mike Tyson in an MMA match.


Best way to take Tyson would be a large caliber rifle at a range of no less than half a mile...


----------



## Steve

Diagen said:


> What is this psychological crap? If one can't overcome their own mind then they can't become the best no matter what, it's oxymoronic to talk like you are. You can't use kiddy gloves with someone and get world class. Not possible. You can't just sort of walk backwards into it. You need the goal and to work for it if you want to reach it.
> 
> Fighting is not just SKILL what is this crap?
> 
> Prioritizing? They are lacking fundamentally in having a GOAL AT ALL if deadlifting heavy conflicts with their fighting goals. What is this crap about priorities? If you don't deadlift heavy you don't have the strength you NEED. You can use long jumps with a weight vest or whatever but you need heavy load on the posterior chain NO MATTER WHAT. Deadlift is the most direct route for direct strength gains. Man you need to get involved with the culture you're behind, I ASSURE YOU. What kind of drive do they have for anything? Absolutely nihilistic crap.
> How are you a martial artist? You're a hobbyist and that doesn't make you a martial artist.
> 
> Eh. Not in his prime though! That's the issue, Mike Tyson shouldn't be the best or top 100! Should be lower on the list. Where's the damn evolution?



Demetrious Johnson could kick your ***.  I am very confident that he could.  He is also a small person.  I would guess he walks around at about 140 lbs, and is 5'3".   Genetics.


----------



## Diagen

Steve said:


> Clearly, I can't convince you otherwise.
> 
> How about this?  What if in order for this person to be big, he would be less capable and lose function because he would need to prioritize lifting weights and eating protein shakes (or whatever weight regimen you might have in mind), over training boxing, wrestling, BJJ, and muay thai?  Because he isn't genetically a large person, he would need to put so much energy into being large, it would come at the expense of everything else?  Genetics.
> 
> As Andre the Giant said in the Princess Bride, "It's not my fault I'm the biggest and strongest. I don't even exercise!"


You can't convince me otherwise because it's factually incorrect. Plenty have been in the same psychological state, with the same beliefs, with the great amount of endurance and cardio training and even been veterans that thought they couldn't get big. Literally read too many personal stories to count, I've seen it before. He can get big. Calories in, calories out. You just can't argue with facts.

No. Not genetics. You go into the gym and leave within 45 minutes haha. Damn man. The strength would help in every way. We've already established that being a powerful, big mofo like Tyson == WIN WIN WIN so it doesn't interfere with training AT ALL.

Andre is quite something but he should have exercised. Probably should have done more endurance type stuff though, his heart gave out from lack of conditioning and strength. Actually, strength training tends to be better for the heart as it improves heart STRENGTH vs endurance due to need to make stronger contractions when under the pressure of some great weight and every muscle in the body contracting to the extreme to lift it. Very good stuff. A mix of conditioning and strength training (calisthenics probably classifies as strength training for him due to his size and weight) would have improved his longevity but everyone is just getting by that's the status quo.



Steve said:


> Demetrious Johnson could kick your ***.  I am very confident that he could.  He is also a small person.  I would guess he walks around at about 140 lbs, and is 5'3".   Genetics.


I'm not even sure what the relevance is but he has a lot going for him besides skill I know that much. I'm sure your friend would like to be stronger, tougher and faster though you should really help him out by giving him this information.


----------



## Tez3

Dirty Dog said:


> Best way to take Tyson would be a large caliber rifle at a range of no less than half a mile...


I'd put my money on a Gurkha, no one said it had to be fair to Tyson......


----------



## Buka

Diagen said:


> Well all excellence is decided by the competition but I haven't met anyone here that thinks they can beat Mike Tyson in a fight, MMA kind of fight even. His training is not a secret and it boils down to physical prowess of which there is a GREAT mental component but I'm not getting much engagement on that matter, and then a specific technique to avoid punches mostly -- but he was TOUGH.
> So everyone here that has "decades of training" loses to a guy with maybe 5 - 8 years of training and no one is interested in how they can learn by example.
> You yourself need to drop the nonsense and learn. You think you know better like everyone else here, hence the severe lack of engagement with the topic and all attention directed at my character and personal ability. None of you have anything to teach me. If I want to learn some specific techniques I can quite literally google it. What separates the best from not-the-best is not technique even, it's plain and simple.
> 
> I will continue to confront you and everyone else's need to have authority, I won't let anyone try and limit my potential. You all limit your own potential even what in the hell is the point. Absolutely unnecessary.


I'll cut you some slack because you've never actually trained with anyone. But there are people here who've not only trained for years, some for lifetimes, and some with people the caliber of Mike Tyson, with professional world champions - some of whom were better than Mike Tyson.

As someone else pointed out, you could learn valuable things here, but you choose not to.

Have to give you some serious props, though. You have great punctuation and can really write well when you choose to.


----------



## Diagen

Buka said:


> I'll cut you some slack because you've never actually trained with anyone. But there are people here who've not only trained for years, some for lifetimes, and some with people the caliber of Mike Tyson, with professional world champions - some of whom were better than Mike Tyson.
> 
> As someone else pointed out, you could learn valuable things here, but you choose not to.
> 
> Have to give you some serious props, though. You have great punctuation and can really write well when you choose to.


If they trained with the best and aren't the best. . . . clearly it's not technique that makes the best the best. What are you even telling me to listen to haha!? You could put more effort into the basics but you choose not to like most people that aren't world champions.
Thanks for the compliment though.


----------



## Steve

Diagen said:


> I'm not even sure what the relevance is but he has a lot going for him besides skill I know that much. I'm sure your friend would like to be stronger, tougher and faster though you should really help him out by giving him this information.


I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to be stronger.  Not sure about tougher and faster... I don't frankly see how he could be tougher or faster.  Dude's a honey badger.


----------



## Steve

Diagen said:


> If they trained with the best and aren't the best. . . . clearly it's not technique that makes the best the best.


No, it's genetics.  Prove me wrong. 



Diagen said:


> What are you even telling me to listen to haha!? You could put more effort into the basics but you choose not to like most people that aren't world champions.
> Thanks for the compliment though.


How do you know @Buka wasn't a world champion?


----------



## Diagen

Steve said:


> No, it's genetics.  Prove me wrong.
> 
> 
> How do you know @Buka wasn't a world champion?


No it's physical prowess and you know jack all about training for such. Prove me wrong. Discussion can only go so far, results are clear. Your friend wants to become stronger and if he doesn't I don't know what the hell any of you are doing in the sport nor in martial arts as _self-defense_. Strength translates to all aspects of martial arts what kind of nonsense is this? How many layers of ignorance must I pry open or pierce?

World champ in MMA or Striking my mistake. I should probably just repeat myself like I mean to though: WHO HERE IS BETTER THAN MIKE TYSON IN HIS PRIME? WHO CAN BEAT HIM? WHAT IF HE TRAINED GRAPPLING FOR 2 YEARS TO GET INTO MMA? He would kill, I swear to God. 

Your example of "genetics" was **** and doesn't make sense I swear to god if he trained right he could get strong af while retaining much of what he gained from his other training. He could just get up to 160 lbs man, over 5 years let's say, slow bulking while keeping up speed, athleticism, endurance, and increasing strength monsterously. SIZE is not STRENGTH but damn it helps. If you slow bulk, just barely going up in weight to help strength progress, and to hit harder from the added weight, it's monumental.
The point about weight lifting is that he can easily add mass with available programs online (I mean it's dead simple man) to contradict your argument about GENETICS. His strength isn't GENETICS either and there are programs online for strength, without adding size. But apparently strength doesn't matter? Makes no sense. 
Just a resignation of one's will that sounds completely nihilistic and like some sort of implosion! Everyone goes through the calcification and implosion but it doesn't end there. Just depends on one's willingness to start expanding horizons.


----------



## Buka

Steve said:


> No, it's genetics.  Prove me wrong.
> 
> 
> How do you know @Buka wasn't a world champion?


Steve, how much do you figure Helio Gracie weighed in his prime? 150?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Diagen said:


> Can ANYONE talk about the topic without it being about how knowlegdeable and great you all are you egotistical bastards.


Maybe read back. I haven't seen anyone touting their credentials or claiming some high level of knowledge.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Diagen said:


> Why is there a lack of will and motivation to become the best here?


You seem to think everyone wants to be the very best at everything they do. That's not at all the case. For most things I do, I'm okay being competent at them. For my MA training, I'm okay being above average among those I train with (in my prime, I prefered being one of the best among those I trained with). For my work, I prefer being the best I can figure out how to be (without needing to compete against others in my head).

Most of us aren't dedicating our lives to MA training - it's a part of our lives, at varying levels, because most of us have higher priorities. Work and family took priority over MA for me about 25 years ago, so I train with a schedule that fits my family and work priorities.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Diagen said:


> That means IQ too.


By the way, IQ has been shown to have negligible predictive power. People with high IQs do not tend to succeed more often or at higher levels than others with "normal" IQ's (whatever range you care to use for "normal").


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Diagen said:


> If competition is low then there is less motivation to become the best. Competition can be better or worse in every sport in whatever decade for instance. Evolution is driven by pressure basically. If you see excellence you strive higher. If you don't even realize that someone can deadlift 1100 lbs, and most people can train to deadlift 700 lbs, I don't think most people training and trying right now to reach that goal would be.
> I don't know who is lying to who about their ability. Pretty sure everyone that thinks they can take Mike Tyson come to that conclusion on their own man.


It has never really mattered to me how much anyone else could deadlift, much less what the maximum is for a human. I lifted because I wanted me to be stronger.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> Demetrious Johnson could kick your ***.  I am very confident that he could.  He is also a small person.  I would guess he walks around at about 140 lbs, and is 5'3".   Genetics.


Dude loses to me on reach and weight. And he'd destroy me. I'd feel like a giant and look like a dweeb.


----------



## Steve

Buka said:


> Steve, how much do you figure Helio Gracie weighed in his prime? 150?


Yeah, he was another little guy.  Rickson was not a little guy.  Genetics... go figure! 


gpseymour said:


> Dude loses to me on reach and weight. And he'd destroy me. I'd feel like a giant and look like a dweeb.


As would we all.   

Point to Diagen is that he's cherry picking attributes and projecting his own specific ideas about what is desirable on everyone else.  He wants to be stronger, so he thinks everyone else must also want to be stronger.  And he thinks being strongest (not just stronger) is essential to being effective.  Which leads him to suggest that everyone must strive to be the strongest, or they are... I don't quite know... not serious?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

gpseymour said:


> Dude loses to me on reach and weight. And he'd destroy me. I'd feel like a giant and look like a dweeb.


Pound for pound, possibly the best fighter ever. People disagree, but I stand by this.


----------



## Tez3

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Pound for pound, possibly the best fighter ever. People disagree, but I stand by this.


I know a chap who is a phenomenal fighter, best many of us have ever seen BUT, and this will back up what others have said, while he enjoys competing in MMA he regards it as a hobby, he's had offers from UFC but said no thanks, who does that, right? He doesn't want to be the strongest, he doesn't want to be the best fighter ever. He has a career he gets satisfaction from, he has a family he loves,he has hobbies and pastimes he enjoys, he is a contented man.  How many can say that? Anger doesn't play any part in his life beyond the normal bits we all have.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Diagen said:


> WHO HERE IS BETTER THAN MIKE TYSON IN HIS PRIME?


Let me make sure I understand your point here ... no one that you are talking to in this discussion could beat Mike Tyson in his prime, therefore their knowledge, experience, and viewpoints are all worthless and therefore they should just accept whatever argument you are trying to make? Okay ... but if we grant that premise then we also run into the fact that you yourself couldn't beat Mike Tyson in his prime and by the same logic your knowledge, experience, and viewpoints are all worthless and you should just accept whatever arguments everyone else is making. Man, this gets confusing.

Let's back up and see if I can make sense out of your larger argument. It's difficult because you're kind of all over the place, but if we just focus on the mentions of Tyson it seems to come down to something like the following:
1) Premise - Extreme anger is good and healthy and makes you an effective person and fighter. 
2) Mike Tyson was an individual with serious anger issues. (Honestly, I'd say serious mental health issues.)
3) Mike Tyson was, for a while, a dominant boxing champion who seemed unbeatable (until he was beaten)
4) QED, Tyson's success as a fighter must have been due to his anger and point #1 has been proven.

You seem to become upset by all the other arguments which have been presented against your premise in point #1, so let's look at your assumptions going into point #4. If we were to accept your thesis, then we should predict the following: a) great fighters in general should be carrying around a boatload of anger and b) Mike Tyson in particular should have been more effective as he grew angrier - kind of like the Hulk.

Do these predictions hold up? Not really. I've met some world champions and they've generally been calm, friendly, happy people. I think @Buka has met a bunch more and he'll probably say the same thing.

How about Tyson? Did his anger reliably make him more effective? I'll point you to Tyson vs Holyfield 1 and 2. Based on his visible behavior, Tyson was angrier than ever before - but he lost both times to the calmer Holyfield. (Before you argue that Tyson was no longer in his "prime", please remember that Holyfield was 4 years older than Tyson.)

It should also be noted that even if Tyson's anger had helped him in the ring, it clearly contributed to his many problems and his general mess of a life outside the ring. So if you're making an argument for constant anger being a healthy attribute, Tyson is probably the wrong example to choose.


----------



## Buka

Mike Tyson was terrific. In his prime one of the greatest boxing champions of all time.

But Mike Tyson's anger did not make him a champion. Mike Tyson's anger was a big factor in his undoing.

Four things ruined Mike Tyson. Robin Givens, Don King, Mike Tyson's anger, and Evander The Real Deal Holyfield.

Mike Tyson was one of the most difficult competitors to face in the ring, but not because of anger. It was because of boxing skill. People forget, and in @Diagen's case, probably doesn't realize in the first place, Mike Tyson had incredible boxing skill. Trained by Cus D'Amato and Teddy Atlas, Iron Mike had some of the greatest skill in slipping, bobbing and weaving that the boxing world had ever seen.

It's difficult to explain slipping, bobbing and weaving to someone who doesn't know how to fight and who's never trained, so I won't try.

Mike's anger was at himself and the circumstances he was constantly embroiled in. It ruined his career. Looking back at the first Holyfield fight, this was at a time when Mike Tyson was paying more attention to outside businesses than to fighting Holyfield - who was given little chance to win by all the boxing pundits.

Then Holyfield whooped his ash.

Tyson actually trained hard for the rematch - which he didn't do for their first fight. And the reason he ended up biting Holyfield was not due to anger. It was due to the realization, in the early rounds, that he couldn't beat Holyfield. So he had to do something to get out of there. Something to take the attention away from him about to get his ash kicked yet again.

Poor Mike. I feel bad for all he went through. The fight game is hard, real hard, it can be unforgiving.

But I tell you what, I really, really like Mike Tyson reinventing himself later in his life. And I wish him all the best. It must have been difficult being Mike Tyson in those early years. And he was so young, just a kid.


----------



## Tez3

Buka said:


> Mike Tyson was terrific. In his prime one of the greatest boxing champions of all time.
> 
> But Mike Tyson's anger did not make him a champion. Mike Tyson's anger was a big factor in his undoing.
> 
> Four things ruined Mike Tyson. Robin Givens, Don King, Mike Tyson's anger, and Evander The Real Deal Holyfield.
> 
> Mike Tyson was one of the most difficult competitors to face in the ring, but not because of anger. It was because of boxing skill. People forget, and in @Diagen's case, probably doesn't realize in the first place, Mike Tyson had incredible boxing skill. Trained by Cus D'Amato and Teddy Atlas, Iron Mike had some of the greatest skill in slipping, bobbing and weaving that the boxing world had ever seen.
> 
> It's difficult to explain slipping, bobbing and weaving to someone who doesn't know how to fight and who's never trained, so I won't try.
> 
> Mike's anger was at himself and the circumstances he was constantly embroiled in. It ruined his career. Looking back at the first Holyfield fight, this was at a time when Mike Tyson was paying more attention to outside businesses than to fighting Holyfield - who was given little chance to win by all the boxing pundits.
> 
> Then Holyfield whooped his ash.
> 
> Tyson actually trained hard for the rematch - which he didn't do for their first fight. And the reason he ended up biting Holyfield was not due to anger. It was due to the realization, in the early rounds, that he couldn't beat Holyfield. So he had to do something to get out of there. Something to take the attention away from him about to get his ash kicked yet again.
> 
> Poor Mike. I feel bad for all he went through. The fight game is hard, real hard, it can be unforgiving.
> 
> But I tell you what, I really, really like Mike Tyson reinventing himself later in his life. And I wish him all the best. It must have been difficult being Mike Tyson in those early years. And he was so young, just a kid.



I haven't seen or read anything about him for years now, he actually seems a forgotten man on this side of the pond at least. I remember the rape case, his trainers saying they had to keep him on drugs to tranquillise him but after that nothing. It seemed another tragic case of a boxer going downhill.
I'll have to look up what he's been doing I think.


----------



## Diagen

Buka said:


> Mike Tyson was terrific. In his prime one of the greatest boxing champions of all time.
> 
> But Mike Tyson's anger did not make him a champion. Mike Tyson's anger was a big factor in his undoing.
> 
> Four things ruined Mike Tyson. Robin Givens, Don King, Mike Tyson's anger, and Evander The Real Deal Holyfield.
> 
> Mike Tyson was one of the most difficult competitors to face in the ring, but not because of anger. It was because of boxing skill. People forget, and in @Diagen's case, probably doesn't realize in the first place, Mike Tyson had incredible boxing skill. Trained by Cus D'Amato and Teddy Atlas, Iron Mike had some of the greatest skill in slipping, bobbing and weaving that the boxing world had ever seen.
> 
> It's difficult to explain slipping, bobbing and weaving to someone who doesn't know how to fight and who's never trained, so I won't try.
> 
> Mike's anger was at himself and the circumstances he was constantly embroiled in. It ruined his career. Looking back at the first Holyfield fight, this was at a time when Mike Tyson was paying more attention to outside businesses than to fighting Holyfield - who was given little chance to win by all the boxing pundits.
> 
> Then Holyfield whooped his ash.
> 
> Tyson actually trained hard for the rematch - which he didn't do for their first fight. And the reason he ended up biting Holyfield was not due to anger. It was due to the realization, in the early rounds, that he couldn't beat Holyfield. So he had to do something to get out of there. Something to take the attention away from him about to get his ash kicked yet again.
> 
> Poor Mike. I feel bad for all he went through. The fight game is hard, real hard, it can be unforgiving.
> 
> But I tell you what, I really, really like Mike Tyson reinventing himself later in his life. And I wish him all the best. It must have been difficult being Mike Tyson in those early years. And he was so young, just a kid.


You say it was his undoing but that's emotion. It can help and it can hinder. Anger can make you hit hard but like you say, it is playing with fire. That's what you have to master though. You wind up hitting the wrong person and it's a problem, right?
You can't reach that height without extreme emotional content though, fact! And I mean that in terms of POTENCY. Quality, quantity. Get the lethality right, holster your weapon outside of the cage or whatever.

He did in fact have great skill. *His peekaboo was great and that's because he put his emotion into his TRAINING*. None of you want to address this yall just regurgitating ****. I am being ignored in favor of everyone's monologue! Just respond to the points I raise ffs! 
Your derogitory ******** is just ridiculous. I understand slipping. There's nothing to explain. My point has always been that physical ability, and even mental ability, does not come from nowhere. It is the generation, control and transformation of EMOTION!

His power and speed was insane and he intimidated his enemies on a visceral level. That wasn't some damn technique. Stop talking your vacuous regurgitated crap that sounds rehearsed. You think you know but you won't even listen! I've listened to everything everyone here is saying and I still get the god damned monologues that aren't addressing the CENTRAL QUESTION. If 10 people say the same thing maybe you should try saying something different and reading a bit closer?

His opponents all talked about his knockout power. We all know his KO power. He hits hard. He hits fast. You get hit. That's what it boils down to. _*What about Ernie Shavers? He hit harder than anyone, great slips or not. You can't argue with that fact, you know it. And what is the source of this physical power? YOU HAVE NO GOD DAMNED CLUE!*_
So maybe consider what I'm trying to talk about: EMOTION -> PHYSICALITY. If you have no emotional content there's not much physicality to speak of. Are you alive or not? Emotion isn't some virtual thing that doesn't really exist. It affects physiology. It affects the brain even. It affects the body. You can figure that out for yourself. You can figure out HOW TO USE IT. HOW TO MAKE IT USEFUL FOR YOU. But that's not what anyone wants to talk about because ACTUALLY  INTERESTING TOPICS are too god damned emotionally and socially affecting so you all need to lobotomize and start sounding off some **** to keep yourselves good robots. _Keep refusing to engage with the topic mates!_


----------



## Diagen

gpseymour said:


> Maybe read back. I haven't seen anyone touting their credentials or claiming some high level of knowledge.


Plenty of people saying how 1. They and people here know more about technique and that what I'm saying doesn't make sense because they're _actual_ martial artists and I'm not (I guess their instructors are the geniuses). 2. You saying how you _actually_ read scientific journals (haha). 3. Someone said they're in some cognitive science field, graduated. 4. Some long history of seeing people fight, breaking up fights, being a soldier, interrogating and know my mind better than I do, et cetera.
The general rule of posters here is to think they know better until they reach the limit of their knowledge - then they stop responding!
They stop responding!
They stop discussing!
They have nothing to say when they don't know better haha! That's the general trend here. I'm hoping to keep this conversation on track though: I think martial artists are delusional! And those not going to gyms or dojos realize this! Doesn't matter if they say it to your face, they don't want to learn technique for 5 years and gain a modicum of physicality. They want to put in 1 year and get amazing physicality and _some basic practical technique_. You can't do that for anyone without said knowledge. You also can't get that without *Emotional Content*. If it's not correct emotionally then it's not drawing in many is it! If no one wants to speak the truth who the hell is going to listen! One has to know the role and use of anger, hate and fear in physicality, in training, in mental ability. How it's TRANSFORMED into something useful so people can generate it then transform it. Same with misery and worry of course.
How does everyone here talk about negativity and emotion with their students? What did your instructors say to you? What happens if I contradict, and argue with what they said to you, haha?


----------



## Buka

Diagen said:


> You say it was his undoing but that's emotion. It can help and it can hinder. Anger can make you hit hard but like you say, it is playing with fire. That's what you have to master though. You wind up hitting the wrong person and it's a problem, right?
> You can't reach that height without extreme emotional content though, fact! And I mean that in terms of POTENCY. Quality, quantity. Get the lethality right, holster your weapon outside of the cage or whatever.
> 
> He did in fact have great skill. *His peekaboo was great and that's because he put his emotion into his TRAINING*. None of you want to address this yall just regurgitating ****. I am being ignored in favor of everyone's monologue! Just respond to the points I raise ffs!
> Your derogitory ******** is just ridiculous. I understand slipping. There's nothing to explain. My point has always been that physical ability, and even mental ability, does not come from nowhere. It is the generation, control and transformation of EMOTION!
> 
> His power and speed was insane and he intimidated his enemies on a visceral level. That wasn't some damn technique. Stop talking your vacuous regurgitated crap that sounds rehearsed. You think you know but you won't even listen! I've listened to everything everyone here is saying and I still get the god damned monologues that aren't addressing the CENTRAL QUESTION. If 10 people say the same thing maybe you should try saying something different and reading a bit closer?
> 
> His opponents all talked about his knockout power. We all know his KO power. He hits hard. He hits fast. You get hit. That's what it boils down to. _*What about Ernie Shavers? He hit harder than anyone, great slips or not. You can't argue with that fact, you know it. And what is the source of this physical power? YOU HAVE NO GOD DAMNED CLUE!*_
> So maybe consider what I'm trying to talk about: EMOTION -> PHYSICALITY. If you have no emotional content there's not much physicality to speak of. Are you alive or not? Emotion isn't some virtual thing that doesn't really exist. It affects physiology. It affects the brain even. It affects the body. You can figure that out for yourself. You can figure out HOW TO USE IT. HOW TO MAKE IT USEFUL FOR YOU. But that's not what anyone wants to talk about because ACTUALLY  INTERESTING TOPICS are too god damned emotionally and socially affecting so you all need to lobotomize and start sounding off some **** to keep yourselves good robots. _Keep refusing to engage with the topic mates!_


Do you ever make it out to Maui?


----------



## Diagen

gpseymour said:


> You seem to think everyone wants to be the very best at everything they do. That's not at all the case. For most things I do, I'm okay being competent at them. For my MA training, I'm okay being above average among those I train with (in my prime, I prefered being one of the best among those I trained with). For my work, I prefer being the best I can figure out how to be (without needing to compete against others in my head).
> 
> Most of us aren't dedicating our lives to MA training - it's a part of our lives, at varying levels, because most of us have higher priorities. Work and family took priority over MA for me about 25 years ago, so I train with a schedule that fits my family and work priorities.



Okay. That makes you a hobbyist! Or an enthusiast! But I know for a fact that there are what, hundreds of people that have viewed this thread since this conversation has been going? Recognizing the usefuleness of emotions is enriching to everyone though. It's good solid stuff. I am most certain that quick tasks require one with a good relationship to anger, and as you say about hate: uncontrolled bias is also FOCUS and creating a _psychology_ and _physiology_ of something. Having emotions and knowing how to use them and control them is great stuff. Having knowledge of them is great stuff.
There is nothing impeding intellectual achievements on these matters at the very least. I mean intellectual achievement in regards to figuring out how to use emotion of course.
I am also aware of how emotions affect relationships. For every relationship I notice they're stressed and anxious about many things. Whenever I have provided knowledge and direction for emotion that is PHYSICAL, MENTAL, RATIONAL, and SOCIAL their anxiety disappears and they're excited to assert themselves as individuals. Of course what I say has to be basically true and whenever I leave one or another aspect out (say, the social, or the rational) they are hesitant. But if all 4 are there they are excited and assertive! That's how you lead mates.



Buka said:


> Do you ever make it out to Maui?


👍 👍👍👍👍👍Maui is great I've been there once before. Maybe again! Maybe within the next 5 years haha👍👍👍👍👍👍


----------



## Diagen

gpseymour said:


> By the way, IQ has been shown to have negligible predictive power. People with high IQs do not tend to succeed more often or at higher levels than others with "normal" IQ's (whatever range you care to use for "normal").


This is true. Many aspects to people and thus society. Mind, Emotion, Physical, Rational, Social. That's my Big 5 and if you address those you address success and whatever else.


----------



## Buka

Diagen said:


> Okay. That makes you a hobbyist! Or an enthusiast! But I know for a fact that there are what, hundreds of people that have viewed this thread since this conversation has been going? Recognizing the usefuleness of emotions is enriching to everyone though. It's good solid stuff. I am most certain that quick tasks require one with a good relationship to anger, and as you say about hate: uncontrolled bias is also FOCUS and creating a _psychology_ and _physiology_ of something. Having emotions and knowing how to use them and control them is great stuff. Having knowledge of them is great stuff.
> There is nothing impeding intellectual achievements on these matters at the very least. I mean intellectual achievement in regards to figuring out how to use emotion of course.
> I am also aware of how emotions affect relationships. For every relationship I notice they're stressed and anxious about many things. Whenever I have provided knowledge and direction for emotion that is PHYSICAL, MENTAL, RATIONAL, and SOCIAL their anxiety disappears and they're excited to assert themselves as individuals. Of course what I say has to be basically true and whenever I leave one or another aspect out (say, the social, or the rational) they are hesitant. But if all 4 are there they are excited and assertive! That's how you lead mates.
> 
> 
> 👍 👍👍👍👍👍Maui is great I've been there once before. Maybe again! Maybe within the next 5 years haha👍👍👍👍👍👍


Let me know if you come out again. I have a friend who has a really cool weight gym in his back yard, under a roof covering. And pretty much shares your thoughts on fighting. Go figure.


----------



## Diagen

Steve said:


> Yeah, he was another little guy.  Rickson was not a little guy.  Genetics... go figure!
> 
> As would we all.
> 
> Point to Diagen is that he's cherry picking attributes and projecting his own specific ideas about what is desirable on everyone else.  He wants to be stronger, so he thinks everyone else must also want to be stronger.  And he thinks being strongest (not just stronger) is essential to being effective.  Which leads him to suggest that everyone must strive to be the strongest, or they are... I don't quite know... not serious?


I'm not cherry picking attributes, even endurance improves with strength gains. The pinnacle attribute as far as the literature is concerned is Power as Pavel Tsatsouline would tell you. This is just fast strength. So sprinting and throwing and kicking would be considered the best thing for a person if they wanted to develop EVERY attribute including endurance, flexibility, work capacity, speed, and strength. Toughness I'm not sure but Power would definitely contribute to that as well.
So I guess everyone wants to become the most Powerful or _more powerful_? If your friend is great in every measure but Strength then clearly I would be talking about it though. When speaking generally I say "Physicality" and the meaning seems clearly communicated as far as I've read. 
I'm surprised there is not ONE DAMN PERSON here that wants to become the best. Not one. Not ONE. And I bet you that there would all of a sudden be more than one person considering it if they met JUST ONE person that wanted to become THE BEST. In every culture, every demographic, people are afraid to set a goal, to achieve, until others are doing it too. They don't bring up topics, they don't argue, unless someone else is doing it too. They require SOMEONE ELSE to say it's important or not before they can believe it too. This is what I try to fight in life!


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Diagen said:


> *His peekaboo was great and that's because he put his emotion into his TRAINING*.





Diagen said:


> They want to put in 1 year and get amazing physicality and _some basic practical technique_. You can't do that for anyone without said knowledge. You also can't get that without *Emotional Content*.


This part I have no argument with. No one becomes a great martial artist, fighter, or athlete without serious passion for what they are doing. Becoming great (or even just pretty good) requires a lot of hard work and you need motivation to do that work. That motivation comes from the emotions.

What I (and most of the others participating in this thread) disagree with is your apparent belief that anger, hate and fear are the optimal emotions to drive that hard work and growth. My personal experience and my observations of great fighters I've met indicate otherwise. Furthermore, my experience and observation of many, many people in all walks of life tells me that an overabundance of anger, hate, and fear generally lead to a more miserable life - both for the individuals carrying those emotions and those around them.


----------



## Diagen

Tez3 said:


> I know a chap who is a phenomenal fighter, best many of us have ever seen BUT, and this will back up what others have said, while he enjoys competing in MMA he regards it as a hobby, he's had offers from UFC but said no thanks, who does that, right? He doesn't want to be the strongest, he doesn't want to be the best fighter ever. He has a career he gets satisfaction from, he has a family he loves,he has hobbies and pastimes he enjoys, he is a contented man.  How many can say that? Anger doesn't play any part in his life beyond the normal bits we all have.


Haha but who wants to be the best at _anything_?


----------



## Diagen

Tony Dismukes said:


> Let me make sure I understand your point here ... no one that you are talking to in this discussion could beat Mike Tyson in his prime, therefore their knowledge, experience, and viewpoints are all worthless and therefore they should just accept whatever argument you are trying to make? Okay ... but if we grant that premise then we also run into the fact that you yourself couldn't beat Mike Tyson in his prime and by the same logic your knowledge, experience, and viewpoints are all worthless and you should just accept whatever arguments everyone else is making. Man, this gets confusing.
> 
> Let's back up and see if I can make sense out of your larger argument. It's difficult because you're kind of all over the place, but if we just focus on the mentions of Tyson it seems to come down to something like the following:
> 1) Premise - Extreme anger is good and healthy and makes you an effective person and fighter.
> 2) Mike Tyson was an individual with serious anger issues. (Honestly, I'd say serious mental health issues.)
> 3) Mike Tyson was, for a while, a dominant boxing champion who seemed unbeatable (until he was beaten)
> 4) QED, Tyson's success as a fighter must have been due to his anger and point #1 has been proven.
> 
> You seem to become upset by all the other arguments which have been presented against your premise in point #1, so let's look at your assumptions going into point #4. If we were to accept your thesis, then we should predict the following: a) great fighters in general should be carrying around a boatload of anger and b) Mike Tyson in particular should have been more effective as he grew angrier - kind of like the Hulk.
> 
> Do these predictions hold up? Not really. I've met some world champions and they've generally been calm, friendly, happy people. I think @Buka has met a bunch more and he'll probably say the same thing.
> 
> How about Tyson? Did his anger reliably make him more effective? I'll point you to Tyson vs Holyfield 1 and 2. Based on his visible behavior, Tyson was angrier than ever before - but he lost both times to the calmer Holyfield. (Before you argue that Tyson was no longer in his "prime", please remember that Holyfield was 4 years older than Tyson.)
> 
> It should also be noted that even if Tyson's anger had helped him in the ring, it clearly contributed to his many problems and his general mess of a life outside the ring. So if you're making an argument for constant anger being a healthy attribute, Tyson is probably the wrong example to choose.


"accept whatever arguments you're making" I am just trying to convey my meaning.

Premise is mistaken.

Premise - Emotions lend to different kinds and levels of physicality, as well as mental ability or abilities, thus should be used and generated effectively!
I will help frame the discussion with a new set of premises:

Premise 1 - There is the Mental, Physical, Social, Emotional and Rational.
Premise 2 - Emotions lend themself to each of the 5 differently and asymmetrically, but definitely lend themselves to the Physical.
Premise 3 - There are 5 relevant primitive negative emotions and those are Anger, Hate, Worry, Misery and Fear.
Premise 4 - Negative emotions are to do with the physical and base. Negative emotions essentially are one's physicality.
Premise 5 - Positive emotions are to do with physically transcendent and 'spiritual' things. Positive emotions essentially are one's spirit.
Premise 6 - Negative and Positive emotions are basically ignorant of and do not respect each other.

The misunderstanding is the real issue here. I hope this clarifies.
On your point of negative emotions not being prevalent in fighters: People can generate emotion and use it when they please. I can decide to lounge around or go running. But if I train and run every day I will get better at it! Those who do well generating and using negative emotion will be more effective! If you can literally berserk or Hulk Out you can of course be quite effective in relevant physical measures like strength or speed or intensity!

Premise 7 - Negative emotion tends to create physical structures and are sublimated in these in some sense, sometimes extremely so!
Premise 8 - The latent negative emotion is _catalyzed_ by circumstance. This could be quite strict or loose circumstantial causes - meaning, one could fight only when socially acceptable or whenever they're provoked! But the point is that it may be sublimated and stored and brought out by _catalysts_ and constrained by severe structure and logic [Rational]. This really plays into the "Reason dominates Emotion" trope - because it's true! In true Reason there is no Emotion.
Premise 9 - Directly hurt or controlled by Reason and lashing out is _Anger._
Premise 10 - Somewhat hurting and somewhat controlling Reason is Hate and Hate lends itself to Physicality!
Premise 11 - Seeing the self-evident physical we tend to shape our Reasoning to fit such!
Premise 12 - Both Emotion and Physicality generate Physicality though often _different_.
Premise 13 - Physicality is an absolute DRAIN on Emotion! It consumes it!

It's a lot but here it is.


----------



## Tez3

Diagen said:


> "accept whatever arguments you're making" I am just trying to convey my meaning.
> 
> Premise is mistaken.
> 
> Premise - Emotions lend to different kinds and levels of physicality, as well as mental ability or abilities, thus should be used and generated effectively!
> I will help frame the discussion with a new set of premises:
> 
> Premise 1 - There is the Mental, Physical, Social, Emotional and Rational.
> Premise 2 - Emotions lend themself to each of the 5 differently and asymmetrically, but definitely lend themselves to the Physical.
> Premise 3 - There are 5 relevant primitive negative emotions and those are Anger, Hate, Worry, Misery and Fear.
> Premise 4 - Negative emotions are to do with the physical and base. Negative emotions essentially are one's physicality.
> Premise 5 - Positive emotions are to do with physically transcendent and 'spiritual' things. Positive emotions essentially are one's spirit.
> Premise 6 - Negative and Positive emotions are basically ignorant of and do not respect each other.
> 
> The misunderstanding is the real issue here. I hope this clarifies.
> On your point of negative emotions not being prevalent in fighters: People can generate emotion and use it when they please. I can decide to lounge around or go running. But if I train and run every day I will get better at it! Those who do well generating and using negative emotion will be more effective! If you can literally berserk or Hulk Out you can of course be quite effective in relevant physical measures like strength or speed or intensity!
> 
> Premise 7 - Negative emotion tends to create physical structures and are sublimated in these in some sense, sometimes extremely so!
> Premise 8 - The latent negative emotion is _catalyzed_ by circumstance. This could be quite strict or loose circumstantial causes - meaning, one could fight only when socially acceptable or whenever they're provoked! But the point is that it may be sublimated and stored and brought out by _catalysts_ and constrained by severe structure and logic [Rational]. This really plays into the "Reason dominates Emotion" trope - because it's true! In true Reason there is no Emotion.
> Premise 9 - Directly hurt or controlled by Reason and lashing out is _Anger._
> Premise 10 - Somewhat hurting and somewhat controlling Reason is Hate and Hate lends itself to Physicality!
> Premise 11 - Seeing the self-evident physical we tend to shape our Reasoning to fit such!
> Premise 12 - Both Emotion and Physicality generate Physicality though often _different_.
> Premise 13 - Physicality is an absolute DRAIN on Emotion! It consumes it!
> 
> It's a lot but here it is.



That is one hell of a word salad. 

I have a friend who was a world kick boxing champion, you really need to contact him, he can help you. One of the things he treats is  anger issues.
garyturner.co.uk


----------



## Deleted member 39746

Diagen said:


> "accept whatever arguments you're making" I am just trying to convey my meaning.
> 
> Premise is mistaken.
> 
> Premise - Emotions lend to different kinds and levels of physicality, as well as mental ability or abilities, thus should be used and generated effectively!
> I will help frame the discussion with a new set of premises:
> 
> Premise 1 - There is the Mental, Physical, Social, Emotional and Rational.
> Premise 2 - Emotions lend themself to each of the 5 differently and asymmetrically, but definitely lend themselves to the Physical.
> Premise 3 - There are 5 relevant primitive negative emotions and those are Anger, Hate, Worry, Misery and Fear.
> Premise 4 - Negative emotions are to do with the physical and base. Negative emotions essentially are one's physicality.
> Premise 5 - Positive emotions are to do with physically transcendent and 'spiritual' things. Positive emotions essentially are one's spirit.
> Premise 6 - Negative and Positive emotions are basically ignorant of and do not respect each other.
> 
> The misunderstanding is the real issue here. I hope this clarifies.
> On your point of negative emotions not being prevalent in fighters: People can generate emotion and use it when they please. I can decide to lounge around or go running. But if I train and run every day I will get better at it! Those who do well generating and using negative emotion will be more effective! If you can literally berserk or Hulk Out you can of course be quite effective in relevant physical measures like strength or speed or intensity!
> 
> Premise 7 - Negative emotion tends to create physical structures and are sublimated in these in some sense, sometimes extremely so!
> Premise 8 - The latent negative emotion is _catalyzed_ by circumstance. This could be quite strict or loose circumstantial causes - meaning, one could fight only when socially acceptable or whenever they're provoked! But the point is that it may be sublimated and stored and brought out by _catalysts_ and constrained by severe structure and logic [Rational]. This really plays into the "Reason dominates Emotion" trope - because it's true! In true Reason there is no Emotion.
> Premise 9 - Directly hurt or controlled by Reason and lashing out is _Anger._
> Premise 10 - Somewhat hurting and somewhat controlling Reason is Hate and Hate lends itself to Physicality!
> Premise 11 - Seeing the self-evident physical we tend to shape our Reasoning to fit such!
> Premise 12 - Both Emotion and Physicality generate Physicality though often _different_.
> Premise 13 - Physicality is an absolute DRAIN on Emotion! It consumes it!
> 
> It's a lot but here it is.


Not seen the argument chain, but thats the conculusion for all 13 premises?


----------



## Diagen

Rat said:


> Not seen the argument chain, but thats the conculusion for all 13 premises?


I'll let anyone reading engage with the premises and come up with their own thoughts on the matter. It's to contribute to discussion, as has been my intention this whole time. If you disagree with one or more premises be my guest and dig in.



Tez3 said:


> That is one hell of a word salad.
> 
> I have a friend who was a world kick boxing champion, you really need to contact him, he can help you. One of the things he treats is  anger issues.
> garyturner.co.uk



The issue is you can't step outside of your own mental framework to engage with the premises (and concepts). If you can't mentally engage with the topic just step out.


----------



## Tez3

Diagen said:


> I'll let anyone reading engage with the premises and come up with their own thoughts on the matter. It's to contribute to discussion, as has been my intention this whole time. If you disagree with one or more premises be my guest and dig in.
> 
> 
> 
> The issue is you can't step outside of your own mental framework to engage with the premises (and concepts). If you can't mentally engage with the topic just step out.



Your two statements here, contradict each other, so far everyone who has disagreed with you had been insulted by you, even if they just ask a question you insult them. The possibility you are wrong seems to have never occurred to you.
You called one guy "mofo", you've thrown insults around like confetti as well as misogynist insults in a show of arrogance that is breath taking.

So I'll reiterate, show your research, cite your sources and present it properly otherwise all this is just your opinion, nothing more.


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## Deleted member 39746

Diagen said:


> I'll let anyone reading engage with the premises and come up with their own thoughts on the matter. It's to contribute to discussion, as has been my intention this whole time. If you disagree with one or more premises be my guest and dig in.


Was just clarifying, as you are meant to have a conclusion from premises, its fine if none is present, just odd for how arguing is meant to happen.     Your meant to pay down your premise then conclusion based on the premise. 

I have little vested intrest in this, just picked up on that and wanted to ask.


----------



## Diagen

Tez3 said:


> Your two statements here, contradict each other, so far everyone who has disagreed with you had been insulted by you, even if they just ask a question you insult them. The possibility you are wrong seems to have never occurred to you.
> You called one guy "mofo", you've thrown insults around like confetti as well as misogynist insults in a show of arrogance that is breath taking.
> 
> So I'll reiterate, show your research, cite your sources and present it properly otherwise all this is just your opinion, nothing more.



lol I've been insulted too. You just take the taunts, rhetoric, and explicit or implicit emotional content for granted because you consider it your "group". Us vs Them cognitive bias/ blindness. You protect the social dynamic you exist in best you can and that's your tunnel vision. I stated a fact about the general difference between men and women that would require more effort on my part to communicate with you and you are still swaying from it. Mofo is colloqially used and pretty much never insulting because it's a funny thing to say, if you want to insult someone you sound it out not say "mofo". However you try and slice and dice the conversation it isn't going to work -- nothing is relevant but the damn topic and all of this better relate to it. Whether it's my "opinion" or not, you can choose to create knowledge and insight by exerting your damn mind until it EMERGES greater with some perspective or just do nothing and not discuss anything or exert your Mind at all. Literally anyone can look for literature online on whatever topic and develop a MISTAKEN perspective or NONE AT ALL. If you want PERSPECTIVE then do the Mental work. I am here to get everyone to do the MENTAL work. This all relates to direct, relatable experience. If you need RESEARCH to figure all of this out maybe you're not alive? Haha! ffs. *It's a complex and interconnected reality that I've invited and pushed everyone to discuss, that no pinhole study is going to bring insight on.* That's a fact. It is what it is. 

I invite anyone to discuss the premises I've laid out and read the following for some elaborations:

_[Premise 13 - Physical drains Emotional.]_
Premise 14 - Social drains Physical.
Premise 15 - Reason drains Social.
Premise 16 - Mental drains Reason.
Premise 17 - Emotion drains Mental.
Premise 18 - Emotion harms or controls Social.
Premise 19 - Social harms or controls Mental.
Premise 20 - Mental harms or controls Physical.
Premise 21 - Physical harms or controls Reason.
Premise 22 - Reason harms or controls Emotion.
*Premise 23 - Humans are Social.*

How can we know what hurts or controls? Consider what greatly disrupts the other and what CONTENT is lacking. Everyone can "switch gears" but you just have to understand that there is a logic to this and it is basically true. Anyone can switch from being more Mental to more Physical. Duh! But when more Mental, one is not very Physical or Social with ease. It is like trying to juggle or multi-task, or walk in two different directions. Sure you can go forward, sure you can go back, sure you can do one after the other, but at the same time? *Some things are just naturally difficult.*

Emotion greatly disrupts the Social, the Social tends to lack Emotional and Mental content, and positive/ negative emotions are blunted or Physical. Humor tends to be Physical humor or Rational (perhaps lack of). Things talked about tend to be Physical. Everything is Rationalized or framed with Reason (which decreases Emotion). This one seems a bit more obvious as people are Social. 
_Every change in emotion changes the social dynamic. Hence people demand for emotional 'balance' to trivialize it. If every push in one direction is stopped for the sake of "balance" you prevent runaway emotion._

The Social greatly disrupts the Mental, Mental tends to lack Physical and Social content. It's well known that every bit of socialization is extremely distracting to Mental types, as Socializing is very disrupting to any 'deep' Mental process. Every bit of Mind, Mentality, Mindset, Mind-Body has to be built up and specially protected. It's the weak point in humans so messing with people's Mind is a big attack vector. In Mind types the Social is blunted or Rationalized (see Premise 15). Some things are Emotionalized to hurt or decrease the Social (hence you get accusations of having a Slave Morality, being Sheep, being Socially Engineered by mainstream media and the Education System, having no independent mind, being a conformist, et cetera et cetera) but often there's a focus on Rationalization as humans do so already (being Social afterall), it supports Mental types, and they are human so it hurts both ways to use too much Emotion. Mental types tend to have a lot of punchy opinions and are generally adept at Reason[ing] with interests in the Mind, Psychology, Cryptids, Unknowns, Conspiracies, Cults, Religion, Psychics, Fringe Research/ Science, Evil Societies, AI, Computer Science, that sort of stuff. Mental types are very stressed and very used to stress; a Mental type person is contrary to their human Social nature. Often quite isolated.
_Every change in social changes the mental dynamic. Hence mental types demand social 'balance' to trivialize it. If you have everything social or society going in one direction STOPPED for the sake of "balance" or truth or somesuch you prevent runaway society/ social reality._

Mental greatly disrupts Physical, Physical tends to lack Mental and Rational Content. Reasoning tends to go back to the drawing board, Mind adapts and is an opportunist. The Physical types are disrupted by Mental but generally speaking are protected by the Social, though the Social tends to drain them. Psychological warfare is stressful to them. Illusions are stressful. Philosophy or highly conceptual stuff is stressful. Rational stuff gets dogged or ignored, they have no interest.
_Every change in mental changes the physical dynamic. Hence physical types demand mental 'balance' to trivialize it. If you have everything mental or mentality going in one direction STOPPED for the sake of "balance" or sanity or somesuch you prevent runaway mentality, mindset or mental reality._

Physical greatly disrupts Reason, Reason tends to lack Emotional and Mental Content. Rational types tend to avoid the Physical due to how disruptive it is. Due to Social being drained by Rational, you see they tend to group up and form hobbyist or special interest groups. The least "baby'd" are quite solid and have a definite character, but this always tends to be protective of others as once again they draw from Social. They may take every Physical exertion or bit of Physical reality deadly serious because it is their kryptonite. Their Reason may disappear, they may become lost. OCD is more of a Reason thing but suggests weakness or loss of Reason and is being fought for or protected. Emotional Content is definitely lacking in Reason, a la _Pure Reason_. Emotional _anything_ may be considered weakness and self-destructive (everyone here being human and Social afterall) or quite unhinged. Since Reason protects Social, such types are used to questioning someone's reasoning and sanity -- this is to question their ability to protect themselves and self-interest; this also permits them to hide behind 'concern' as they may claim that your 'interests are at heart' with whatever they do when using Reason. Reason has more to do with controlling Emotion than it does Physical reality, as not everyone is in STEM but everyone is trying to keep some Social fabric together and to manage, deflect and/or control _some_ people's emotions.
_Every change in physical changes the rational dynamic. Hence rational types demand physical 'balance' to trivialize it. If you have everything physical or physicality going in one direction STOPPED for the sake of "balance" or somesuch you prevent runaway physicality, physical exertion or physical reality._

Reason greatly disrupts Emotion, Emotion tends to lack Rational and Social Content. Emotion types tend to avoid Reason due to how disruptive it is. Emotion draws from Mental and creates Physical -- this should help one concieve of what it is. It is necessary as a fighter to use Emotion as it is the link between Mental and Physical. One does not require wild emotion but great great great emotional strength, speed, power and intelligence. Being a bit philosophical helps. Emotion types confront others quite readily -- they will not back down due to some Social consequences, and Physical consequences aren't too consequential in most every situation. A broken tooth is a broken tooth but no one dies afterall. People often call others EMOTIONAL but often mean that they are emotionally weak. For others that are emotionally strong they may just call AGGRESSIVE or ANTAGONISTIC or a BRUTE, in general they can say a hundred things Social about someone Emotionally Strong and they all kind of crumble away. Emotion types are direct, giving no 'face'. They will not pull their words or be too diplomatic or tactful. They are used to and create stress, seeing as humans are Social and Emotion disrupts and 'hurts' that. Emotion types are real power players. Logical reasoning tends to bind them or hurt them, OR take the pressure off them because they are *under their own pressure*. Thus 'losing' can be a sort of win for them. Emotion itself loses or must fight quite a bit against Reason to get anywhere and grow.
_Every change in rational changes the emotional dynamic. Hence emotional types demand reason be 'balanced' to trivialize it. If you have every bit of reason or reasoning going in one direction STOPPED for the sake of 'balance' or the big picture or somesuch you prevent runaway reasoning, reason, or rational reality._

Hope this was useful to some of you.


----------



## Diagen

Rat said:


> Was just clarifying, as you are meant to have a conclusion from premises, its fine if none is present, just odd for how arguing is meant to happen.     Your meant to pay down your premise then conclusion based on the premise.
> 
> I have little vested intrest in this, just picked up on that and wanted to ask.


Laying down premises and letting others engage with them is more discussion or the preliminary to argument as people naturally have their own point of view on what I've posited. Many productive discourses construct themselves in this way. I can take the pressure off to create clarity and a cohesive discussion. Cheers.


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## Diagen

Diagen said:


> Well all excellence is decided by the competition but I haven't met anyone here that thinks they can beat Mike Tyson in a fight, MMA kind of fight even. His training is not a secret and it boils down to physical prowess of which there is a GREAT mental component but I'm not getting much engagement on that matter, and then a specific technique to avoid punches mostly -- but he was TOUGH.
> So everyone here that has "decades of training" loses to a guy with maybe 5 - 8 years of training and no one is interested in how they can learn by example.
> You yourself need to drop the nonsense and learn. You think you know better like everyone else here, hence the severe lack of engagement with the topic and all attention directed at my character and personal ability. None of you have anything to teach me. If I want to learn some specific techniques I can quite literally google it. What separates the best from not-the-best is not technique even, it's plain and simple.
> 
> I will continue to confront you and everyone else's need to have authority, I won't let anyone try and limit my potential. You all limit your own potential even what in the hell is the point. Absolutely unnecessary.


I'd like to bring up the first line of this post once more: _"Well all excellence is decided by the competition"_
Everyone knows you can't hand to hand win against a Gorilla. If you have no interest in being the best _human_ competitor you are a hobbyist, but true martial artists think about being top of the animal kingdom as well. *That's essentialism.*

You may do some math problems and think you're good, but there are actual mathematicians. One is not a mathematician because they did some Calculus in high school and college. One is not a mathematician if they do not know basic set theory or the foundations of geometry (Hilbert or at least Euclid), or some category theory, algebra (number theory included), so on and so forth. In other words you do not have the essential character and SPIRIT of some title you seek to obtain without EMBODYING it. If you don't have the essential character or spirit of a Martial Artist without seeking to EMBODY it. If it is not top priority how the hell does it mean anything to say you are a martial artist? I can do some addition and multiplication on paper and say I'm a mathematician! I can learn basic algebra and some geometry in school and say I'm an experienced and established mathematician! Now mathematics isn't even competitive in nature, but MARTIAL ARTS is. So meeting and rising above competition is in the spirit and essence of Martial Arts. If you are not competitive and seek to rise above others you can hardly call yourself a Martial Artist.

Hence, True Martial Artists want to beat up Gorillas.  👍


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## Diagen

Buka said:


> Let me know if you come out again. I have a friend who has a really cool weight gym in his back yard, under a roof covering. And pretty much shares your thoughts on fighting. Go figure.


👍  👍 Will do. Thanks for the invitation. 👍👍


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## Diagen

Diagen said:


> I'd like to bring up the first line of this post once more: _"Well all excellence is decided by the competition"_
> Everyone knows you can't hand to hand win against a Gorilla. If you have no interest in being the best _human_ competitor you are a hobbyist, but true martial artists think about being top of the animal kingdom as well. *That's essentialism.*
> 
> You may do some math problems and think you're good, but there are actual mathematicians. One is not a mathematician because they did some Calculus in high school and college. One is not a mathematician if they do not know basic set theory or the foundations of geometry (Hilbert or at least Euclid), or some category theory, algebra (number theory included), so on and so forth. In other words you do not have the essential character and SPIRIT of some title you seek to obtain without EMBODYING it. If you don't have the essential character or spirit of a Martial Artist without seeking to EMBODY it. If it is not top priority how the hell does it mean anything to say you are a martial artist? I can do some addition and multiplication on paper and say I'm a mathematician! I can learn basic algebra and some geometry in school and say I'm an experienced and established mathematician! Now mathematics isn't even competitive in nature, but MARTIAL ARTS is. So meeting and rising above competition is in the spirit and essence of Martial Arts. If you are not competitive and seek to rise above others you can hardly call yourself a Martial Artist.
> 
> Hence, True Martial Artists want to beat up Gorillas. 👍



How this relates to the topic: No one wants to learn from and train with people that don't want to beat up Gorillas. If you are unwilling to become the best you are not a true martial artist! One wants to train with the best! Simple.
Worst still is that everyone says it's impossible! No one wants to train for 10 years and still lose to a Gorilla! One must have the Goal, the Spirit and the Essence for True Character, for True Martial Arts to become a True Martial Artist!


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## Diagen

@Dirty Dog laughs but he fears the Gorilla, make no mistake.


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## Tez3

Diagen said:


> How this relates to the topic: No one wants to learn from and train with people that don't want to beat up Gorillas. If you are unwilling to become the best you are not a true martial artist! One wants to train with the best! Simple.
> Worst still is that everyone says it's impossible! No one wants to train for 10 years and still lose to a Gorilla! One must have the Goal, the Spirit and the Essence for True Character, for True Martial Arts to become a True Martial Artist!



You do know that gorillas are actually quite peaceful, intelligent creatures who do not fight for the sake of fighting. They will fight only as a last resort in defence. 
To want to beat up animals is actually very sick, there's a name for people like that. Your analogies are as poor as your theories. 

You aren't a martial artist, you don't train, you aren't talking from any experience why are you here trying to lecture martial artists and fighters?


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## Deleted member 39746

Tez3 said:


> You do know that gorillas are actually quite peaceful, intelligent creatures who do not fight for the sake of fighting. They will fight only as a last resort in defence.


Depends on the species, i can almost gurantee you that they do social fighting, every animal does that.     And i can gurnatee you, if you do something it doesnt like, it will hit you, intetionally or other wise.    Or one protecting it will hit you.  

Animals arent really "peaceful", the either opt to attack as their main form of defence, or run, or opt to attack some, run from others.     There inability to claw you to death, doesnt mean they are "peaceful" it means they arent a preadtory species to you.   (to be fair, their ability to claw you doesnt mean they are preadtory to you,just they can kill you)

No vested intrest, its just biology time now apparntly.


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## Tez3

Rat said:


> Depends on the species, i can almost gurantee you that they do social fighting, every animal does that.     And i can gurnatee you, if you do something it doesnt like, it will hit you, intetionally or other wise.    Or one protecting it will hit you.
> 
> Animals arent really "peaceful", the either opt to attack as their main form of defence, or run, or opt to attack some, run from others.     There inability to claw you to death, doesnt mean they are "peaceful" it means they arent a preadtory species to you.   (to be fair, their ability to claw you doesnt mean they are preadtory to you,just they can kill you)
> 
> No vested intrest, its just biology time now apparntly.


And you are now a zoologist? No, not every animal does 'social' figbring and I did say gorillas will fight defensively. You need to read what Shawn Lehman, professor of anthropology at the University of Toronto and is on the board of directors of the Jane Goodell Institute says about gorillas. It's what I did before posting to make sure I had my facts right.

I did also say 'quite peaceful' like the majority of creatures, most animals won't fight unless there's no choice because the consequences of injury are often starvation through being unable to feed or hunt, infections, weakness, leaving them vulnerable etc.ing

If animals fight they do it for a reason, only man fights for the pleasure of fighting.


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## Flying Crane

Diagen said:


> How this relates to the topic: No one wants to learn from and train with people that don't want to beat up Gorillas.



I recently took on a couple of students.  Never once has beating up gorillas been mentioned.  Not the desire to do so, nor any ability (or lack thereof) to do so.  And yet these folks seem to be enjoying the instruction and the training.  

So once again you are wrong.  People are more than willing to train with people who don’t want to beat up gorillas.


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## Xue Sheng

Diagen said:


> How this relates to the topic: No one wants to learn from and train with people that don't want to beat up Gorillas. If you are unwilling to become the best you are not a true martial artist! One wants to train with the best! Simple.
> Worst still is that everyone says it's impossible! No one wants to train for 10 years and still lose to a Gorilla! One must have the Goal, the Spirit and the Essence for True Character, for True Martial Arts to become a True Martial Artist!



You do realize your average Gorilla can bench about 4000 pounds and has enough strength in a strike to shatter the average human skull...and that is not even getting into their big sharp pointy teeth.....so with that in mind why would anyone train with someone who was suicidal....which leads me to believe your view of true martial arts is one needs to be self-destructive and suicidal...... just had to throw that out there...sorry for the interruption...so please carry o n with your ridiculous untrained POV..... it is starting to get comical.....

oh...and I will not be returning to respond to any of your ridiculousness.... I just wanted to throw that out there for the entertainment purposes of others


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## Tez3

Xue Sheng said:


> You do realize your average Gorilla can bench about 4000 pounds and has enough strength in a strike to shatter the average human skull...and that is not even getting into their big sharp pointy teeth.....so with that in mind why would anyone train with someone who was suicidal....which leads me to believe your view of true martial arts is one needs to be self-destructive and suicidal...... just had to throw that out there...sorry for the interruption...so please carry o n with your ridiculous untrained POV..... it is starting to get comical.....
> 
> oh...and I will not be returning to respond to any of your ridiculousness.... I just wanted to throw that out there for the entertainment purposes of others



That's a pretty gorgeous beastie though. 

Have you see the David Attenborough documentary where he had a gorilla touch him?


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## Xue Sheng

Tez3 said:


> That's a pretty gorgeous beastie though.
> 
> Have you see the David Attenborough documentary where he had a gorilla touch him?



no I have not


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## Tez3

A bit off topic though it has all turned weird. This however is interesting.









						BBC Earth | Home
					

Welcome to BBC Earth, a place to explore the natural world through awe-inspiring documentaries, podcasts, stories and more.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Xue Sheng

Tez3 said:


> A bit off topic though it has all turned weird. This however is interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BBC Earth | Home
> 
> 
> Welcome to BBC Earth, a place to explore the natural world through awe-inspiring documentaries, podcasts, stories and more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.co.uk



This went off topic many many posts ago, so no worries. And thank you for the link


----------



## _Simon_

Flying Crane said:


> I recently took on a couple of students.  Never once has beating up gorillas been mentioned.  Not the desire to do so, nor any ability (or lack thereof) to do so.  And yet these folks seem to be enjoying the instruction and the training.
> 
> So once again you are wrong.  People are more than willing to train with people who don’t want to beat up gorillas.


(Just a quick: that's awesome a few students have come up @Flying Crane , great to hear  )


----------



## Deleted member 39746

Xue Sheng said:


> You do realize your average Gorilla can bench about 4000 pounds and has enough strength in a strike to shatter the average human skull...and that is not even getting into their big sharp pointy teeth.....so with that in mind why would anyone train with someone who was suicidal....which leads me to believe your view of true martial arts is one needs to be self-destructive and suicidal...... just had to throw that out there...sorry for the interruption...so please carry o n with your ridiculous untrained POV..... it is starting to get comical.....
> 
> oh...and I will not be returning to respond to any of your ridiculousness.... I just wanted to throw that out there for the entertainment purposes of others


Which is why if you box one and win, its pretty impressive and is actually something to boast about, its why people fight bulls etc.   they tend to choose something where its 50/50 though. 

isnt the kyokshin fighter the person who killed like 5 bulls with their hands or something?  i dont know much about that one though.


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## Tez3

Rat said:


> Which is why if you box one and win, its pretty impressive and is actually something to boast about, its why people fight bulls etc.   they tend to choose something where its 50/50 though.
> 
> isnt the kyokshin fighter the person who killed like 5 bulls with their hands or something?  i dont know much about that one though.



Why would you box an animal 😂 

As for fighting bulls, that is disgusting. The bull is stabbed with spikes, so they lose blood and are weakened, their horns have the tips blunted, it's cruel and cowardly. Horses are often cruelly injured during the fight which always ends in the bulls death.

Bull running is no different with terrified and stressed when forced to run down streets, often falling and injuring themselves. Afterwards they are put in the bullring.

Only cowards fight animals for entertainment and fun.


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## Dirty Dog

Tez3 said:


> Why would you box an animal 😂
> 
> As for fighting bulls, that is disgusting. The bull is stabbed with spikes, so they lose blood and are weakened, their horns have the tips blunted, it's cruel and cowardly. Horses are often cruelly injured during the fight which always ends in the bulls death.


Ummm.... no... Bullfights in Spain end with the death of the bull. And, as you say, the bull is crippled before the "fight" starts. Portugese bullfights do not end with death, nor is the bull tortured as a warm up.


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## Deleted member 39746

Tez3 said:


> Why would you box an animal 😂
> 
> As for fighting bulls, that is disgusting. The bull is stabbed with spikes, so they lose blood and are weakened, their horns have the tips blunted, it's cruel and cowardly. Horses are often cruelly injured during the fight which always ends in the bulls death.
> 
> Bull running is no different with terrified and stressed when forced to run down streets, often falling and injuring themselves. Afterwards they are put in the bullring.
> 
> Only cowards fight animals for entertainment and fun.



Mildly intresting you defaulted to bull running and bull fighting when the original animal was a gorillia and implication was boxing a gorrila. (unfair for the human by a large margin, as established)     The tertiary point and example was the Kykoshin founder fought bulls apparntly.  

If you can box and win against gorillias consistently, your good against humans.(plus you have unquestionable bragging rights)   Also, the rules and regulations can vary drastically, there isnt just one generic "animal sport", by the nature/definition of unoffical and uregulated it means anything can be done, so even if such regulations exsited, ones deviating from them can happen.  

i have heard people cite fox hunting (via dogs) as they keep it caged and release it, and i have heard it just mean chasing foxes down on private property, i belive either can happen, and both are "fox hunting".    Apart from the literal meaning of "fox hunting" meaning hunting foxes, not in one way.   Hell "fox hunting ban" is misleading, as you can still hunt foxes, just not with dogs.    A more english example of this. 

anyway, im going to dip as this is borderline fuzzy breech of politics rule and i think this will delve into arguing about actual politics now.


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## Tez3

Rat said:


> Mildly intresting you defaulted to bull running and bull fighting when the original animal was a gorillia and implication was boxing a gorrila. (unfair for the human by a large margin, as established)     The tertiary point and example was the Kykoshin founder fought bulls apparntly.
> 
> If you can box and win against gorillias consistently, your good against humans.(plus you have unquestionable bragging rights)   Also, the rules and regulations can vary drastically, there isnt just one generic "animal sport", by the nature/definition of unoffical and uregulated it means anything can be done, so even if such regulations exsited, ones deviating from them can happen.
> 
> i have heard people cite fox hunting (via dogs) as they keep it caged and release it, and i have heard it just mean chasing foxes down on private property, i belive either can happen, and both are "fox hunting".    Apart from the literal meaning of "fox hunting" meaning hunting foxes, not in one way.   Hell "fox hunting ban" is misleading, as you can still hunt foxes, just not with dogs.    A more english example of this.
> 
> anyway, im going to dip as this is borderline fuzzy breech of politics rule and i think this will delve into arguing about actual politics now.



Excuse me? I was answering your post you were the one who mentioned bull fighting! 😂

You are being ridiculous when you talk about boxing gorillas.


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## Tez3

Dirty Dog said:


> Ummm.... no... Bullfights in Spain end with the death of the bull. And, as you say, the bull is crippled before the "fight" starts. Portugese bullfights do not end with death, nor is the bull tortured as a warm up.



Portuguese bulls aren't killed in the arena but by a butcher outside, rarely a bull may be given medical treatment and retrieved for another day. They are still stabbed by the spears though.








						Bullfighting - Portugal
					

Portuguese-style bullfights are called touradas or corridas de touros , and it is distinguished by the fact that the main bullfighter 'fights' the bull on a horse. It should not be confused with the...



					www.esdaw.eu


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## Dirty Dog

Tez3 said:


> Portuguese bulls aren't killed in the arena but by a butcher outside, rarely a bull may be given medical treatment and retrieved for another day. They are still stabbed by the spears though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullfighting - Portugal
> 
> 
> Portuguese-style bullfights are called touradas or corridas de touros , and it is distinguished by the fact that the main bullfighter 'fights' the bull on a horse. It should not be confused with the...
> 
> 
> 
> www.esdaw.eu


I'm guessing this is a relatively new thing, then. I lived outside Madrid for three years, and saw a number of bullfights in both countries. I do not recall the bull being tortured in Portugal. Taking them to be slaughtered is totally different.


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## Deleted member 39746

Tez3 said:


> Excuse me? I was answering your post you were the one who mentioned bull fighting! 😂
> 
> You are being ridiculous when you talk about boxing gorillas.


I see two issues here:
One: The bull point, as stated is a tertiary point.
Two: Bull fighting, as in the action of fighting a bull, not "bull fighting" the sport.    I dont know why you defaulted to the sport, when the man is japanese, and bull running has nothing to do with this.


I dont recall addressing you here, until the reples.   My previous quote of yours, has nothing to do with this(on the nature of gorrilas).    I quoted  Xue to illistrate the point of the feat of strength boxing a gorrila would have, it obviously is partly hyperbole, then i am replying to your reply to my statements.

Which would have answered your first question "why would you box an animal?".  I eleborated to explain that point in the first reply.
This is again of amusmenet how you are focusing on the tertiary point, i only replied to that to illistrate the point there isnt a hive mind or god of animal sports and you must do this that and the other to fight a bull, hunt a fox etc.    By the literal definition if you fight a bull you are bull fighting, if you hunt a fox you are fox hunting, to once again bring examples.    To again, explain and illistrate my point further.

Now your welcome to your moral opinion of it, but so is everyone else.


Anyway, im not going to waste anymore of my time as you are as usual acting like a petulant child and it was a mistake to even engage with you. 

Also, this thread is a clusterfuck and probbly should be closed.

PS,  just because its going to annoy the **** out of me:   I am not a Zoologist, NEITHER are you.  I do not "need" to read any of your book reccomendations on Gorrilas, nor does reading the books make you a Zoologist, or make you a expert on Gorrilas.(nor does it have any bearing on any other animal)  What i have, is observations(including sources i have read) of social fighting being present in most if not all animals, to use a loosly defined term and through the lense of a human.     It is also 100% pointless to read up or study wildlife thats not native to your area, or present in your area.   Unless it becomes a hobby or proffession anyway.    Even in the source i skimmed, social fighting is present in gorrilas.

there is absolutely no reason to make the "are you a X" statement unless you are trying to poison the well or bring a chracter attack to bear, which you were.

Also, this point is equally annoying me.  YES, animals die in social fighting and kill each other in it.  We do it all the time, social fighting just means for social gain, in the literal meaning as applied to animals, Social fighting is fighting over social positions, preadtory is killing for food.      Its not "for fun", its for social position.   although for sake of argument im not including play fighting as social fighting, and the lines are blurred at times.

I skimmed wiki before i made the statement on the gorillas, and  One of the statements i want to highlight: 

"The silverback is the centre of the troop's attention, making all the decisions, mediating conflicts, determining the movements of the group, leading the others to feeding sites, and taking responsibility for the safety and well-being of the troop. Younger males subordinate to the silverback, known as blackbacks, may serve as backup protection. Blackbacks are aged between 8 and 12 years"

Robbins MM. (2001) "Variation in the social system of mountain gorillas: the male perspective". In: Robbins MM, Sicotte P, Stewart KJ, editors. _Mountain Gorillas: Three Decades of Research at Karisoke_. Cambridge (England): Cambridge Univ Pr. pp. 29–58.

The fact there is a caste system means competition over spots will exist, the statement says "thre are internnal conflcits" so social fighting.   Unless you cite me something diffrent, its settled.   And i mean cite.     I didnt think id need to back up a obvious majorty rule like this with any evidence. 

If we are going to argue over this further, make a new thread.


----------



## Tez3

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm guessing this is a relatively new thing, then. I lived outside Madrid for three years, and saw a number of bullfights in both countries. I do not recall the bull being tortured in Portugal. Taking them to be slaughtered is totally different.



Looking up a Portuguese site (pro bull fighting) it says since 1923 when fighting from horseback was revived by Antonio Canera. Other sites say tail and ears cut off before the still alive bull is taken out of the arena. Sadly on those sites there were photographs so now I feel quite sick. The short spears were shown as well being used on both the pro and anti sites.


----------



## Tez3

Rat said:


> I see two issues here:
> One: The bull point, as stated is a tertiary point.
> Two: Bull fighting, as in the action of fighting a bull, not "bull fighting" the sport.    I dont know why you defaulted to the sport, when the man is japanese, and bull running has nothing to do with this.
> 
> 
> I dont recall addressing you here, until the reples.   My previous quote of yours, has nothing to do with this(on the nature of gorrilas).    I quoted  Xue to illistrate the point of the feat of strength boxing a gorrila would have, it obviously is partly hyperbole, then i am replying to your reply to my statements.
> 
> Which would have answered your first question "why would you box an animal?".  I eleborated to explain that point in the first reply.
> This is again of amusmenet how you are focusing on the tertiary point, i only replied to that to illistrate the point there isnt a hive mind or god of animal sports and you must do this that and the other to fight a bull, hunt a fox etc.    By the literal definition if you fight a bull you are bull fighting, if you hunt a fox you are fox hunting, to once again bring examples.    To again, explain and illistrate my point further.
> 
> Now your welcome to your moral opinion of it, but so is everyone else.
> 
> 
> Anyway, im not going to waste anymore of my time as you are as usual acting like a petulant child and it was a mistake to even engage with you.
> 
> Also, this thread is a clusterfuck and probbly should be closed.
> 
> PS,  just because its going to annoy the **** out of me:   I am not a Zoologist, NEITHER are you.  I do not "need" to read any of your book reccomendations on Gorrilas, nor does reading the books make you a Zoologist, or make you a expert on Gorrilas.(nor does it have any bearing on any other animal)  What i have, is observations(including sources i have read) of social fighting being present in most if not all animals, to use a loosly defined term and through the lense of a human.     It is also 100% pointless to read up or study wildlife thats not native to your area, or present in your area.   Unless it becomes a hobby or proffession anyway.    Even in the source i skimmed, social fighting is present in gorrilas.
> 
> there is absolutely no reason to make the "are you a X" statement unless you are trying to poison the well or bring a chracter attack to bear, which you were.
> 
> Also, this point is equally annoying me.  YES, animals die in social fighting and kill each other in it.  We do it all the time, social fighting just means for social gain, in the literal meaning as applied to animals, Social fighting is fighting over social positions, preadtory is killing for food.      Its not "for fun", its for social position.   although for sake of argument im not including play fighting as social fighting, and the lines are blurred at times.
> 
> I skimmed wiki before i made the statement on the gorillas, and  One of the statements i want to highlight:
> 
> "The silverback is the centre of the troop's attention, making all the decisions, mediating conflicts, determining the movements of the group, leading the others to feeding sites, and taking responsibility for the safety and well-being of the troop. Younger males subordinate to the silverback, known as blackbacks, may serve as backup protection. Blackbacks are aged between 8 and 12 years"
> 
> Robbins MM. (2001) "Variation in the social system of mountain gorillas: the male perspective". In: Robbins MM, Sicotte P, Stewart KJ, editors. _Mountain Gorillas: Three Decades of Research at Karisoke_. Cambridge (England): Cambridge Univ Pr. pp. 29–58.
> 
> The fact there is a caste system means competition over spots will exist, the statement says "thre are internnal conflcits" so social fighting.   Unless you cite me something diffrent, its settled.   And i mean cite.     I didnt think id need to back up a obvious majorty rule like this with any evidence.
> 
> If we are going to argue over this further, make a new thread.



Oh dear.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Rat said:


> Which is why if you box one and win, its pretty impressive and is actually something to boast about, its why people fight bulls etc.   they tend to choose something where its 50/50 though.
> 
> isnt the kyokshin fighter the person who killed like 5 bulls with their hands or something?  i dont know much about that one though.



Which is of course highly dependent on the Gorilla putting on the gloves and following the rules....only problem is Gorillas are notorious for not following the rules, and they have a reach advantage too


----------



## Deleted member 39746

Xue Sheng said:


> Which is of course highly dependent on the Gorilla putting on the gloves and following the rules....only problem is Gorillas are notorious for not following the rules, and they have a reach advantage too


Thats why you get the tiger and the 10 ton weight.  

I am now legitimately curious if you can teach a gorillia to box.


----------



## Tez3

Rat said:


> Thats why you get the tiger and the 10 ton weight.
> 
> I am now legitimately curious if you can teach a gorillia to box.


maybe you could get a gorillia but not a gorilla. 😂


----------



## Steve

Xue Sheng said:


> You do realize your average Gorilla can bench about 4000 pounds


Which is incredibly irritating when they don't rack their weights.  Jerk gorillas.


----------



## Steve

Tez3 said:


> That's a pretty gorgeous beastie though.
> 
> Have you see the David Attenborough documentary where he had a gorilla touch him?


I'm actually curious about that box.  Are gorillas like cats?  He's such a big dude to be standing on such a little box.


----------



## Flying Crane

Rat said:


> If you can box and win against gorillias consistently, your good against humans.(plus you have unquestionable bragging rights)


Ok, there is so much ignorance in this statement, I’ve got to believe that you are being facetious.  But just in case you are serious, don’t think for a moment that a human has a chance against a silverback, or even a younger male or a female gorilla, in a bare-handed fight.  They are built differently than humans, they are many times stronger than even the strongest humans and they routinely outweigh all but the most morbidly obese humans but it is all muscle for them.  If a gorilla decided to go ape-**** on you, you would be pounded into the ground and torn into pieces.  And it would happen before you even realized it was underway.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Steve said:


> Which is incredibly irritating when they don't rack their weights.  Jerk gorillas.


You joke, but imagine how much a gorilla could bench if he learned to do actual weight-training. 

Entirely unscientific reasoning below:

An average untrained male can lift between 135 and 175 pounds per google. If I average that out, it comes out to 155. Some quick google search suggests that most people can lift up to at least 250-300 if they seriously train it; which averages to 275, so that's 1.45 times the amount of weight. 

Per Guinness, the record is 885 pounds. So if we assume that guy was one that could lift 175 to start with, that's just over 5 times the weight. So a gorilla that can bench 4000, assuming that they are otherwise equal to humans in terms of training ability: the average gorilla could bench up to 5800 pounds with training, but an elite specimen could bench up to a theoretical 20000 pounds.


----------



## Tez3

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You joke, but imagine how much a gorilla could bench if he learned to do actual weight-training.
> 
> Entirely unscientific reasoning below:
> 
> An average untrained male can lift between 135 and 175 pounds per google. If I average that out, it comes out to 155. Some quick google search suggests that most people can lift up to at least 250-300 if they seriously train it; which averages to 275, so that's 1.45 times the amount of weight.
> 
> Per Guinness, the record is 885 pounds. So if we assume that guy was one that could lift 175 to start with, that's just over 5 times the weight. So a gorilla that can bench 4000, assuming that they are otherwise equal to humans in terms of training ability: the average gorilla could bench up to 5800 pounds with training, but an elite specimen could bench up to a theoretical 20000 pounds.



You'd have to persuade the gorilla there was a point to doing it though. 😀 They could be like my dog 'you want me to do what!'.


I was reading an article the other day about young gorillas who have learnt to undo poacher's snares, which is wonderful.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tez3 said:


> You'd have to persuade the gorilla there was a point to doing it though. 😀 They could be like my dog 'you want me to do what!'.
> 
> 
> I was reading an article the other day about young gorillas who have learnt to undo poacher's snares, which is wonderful.


People are able to train gorilla's to do a lot of things. If we can persuade them to learn sign language, I feel like we'd be able to convince them to lift a heavy object for food a couple times a day. Or convince them they can become the alpha by doing it. 

I actually want someone to try this and see what the results are. Would be interesting to see how weight training compares cross-species.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tez3 said:


> I was reading an article the other day about young gorillas who have learnt to undo poacher's snares, which is wonderful.


Also, yes. This is absolutely wonderful.


----------



## Steve

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You joke, but imagine how much a gorilla could bench if he learned to do actual weight-training.
> 
> Entirely unscientific reasoning below:
> 
> An average untrained male can lift between 135 and 175 pounds per google. If I average that out, it comes out to 155. Some quick google search suggests that most people can lift up to at least 250-300 if they seriously train it; which averages to 275, so that's 1.45 times the amount of weight.
> 
> Per Guinness, the record is 885 pounds. So if we assume that guy was one that could lift 175 to start with, that's just over 5 times the weight. So a gorilla that can bench 4000, assuming that they are otherwise equal to humans in terms of training ability: the average gorilla could bench up to 5800 pounds with training, but an elite specimen could bench up to a theoretical 20000 pounds.


Fun to think about.   I think it's worth validating the premise of 4k lbs.  I mean, is that consistent and representative of the average gorilla, or is that an "elite" gorilla?

It also presumes that there is a roughly equivalent opportunity for improvement.  That the average dude can increase their functional strength by 1.4% does not necessarily mean that an average gorilla can do so.    What if. Gorilla, through genetics, lifestyle, diet or whatever, is at about their peak strength?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Steve said:


> Fun to think about.   I think it's worth validating the premise of 4k lbs.  I mean, is that consistent and representative of the average gorilla, or is that an "elite" gorilla?
> 
> It also presumes that there is a roughly equivalent opportunity for improvement.  That the average dude can increase their functional strength by 1.4% does not necessarily mean that an average gorilla can do so.    What if. Gorilla, through genetics, lifestyle, diet or whatever, is at about their peak strength?


That last part is why I would want to see an actual experiment. I'd have to imagine just how muscles work that it is possible to increase the overall strength, especially since they're so genetically similar to us. The big question would be if the amount is the same. As for the 4k pounds thing, I see that number referenced a couple places, but it could just be one of those internet "telephone game" things. Curious who figured out that number and how.


----------



## Steve

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That last part is why I would want to see an actual experiment. I'd have to imagine just how muscles work that it is possible to increase the overall strength, especially since they're so genetically similar to us. The big question would be if the amount is the same. As for the 4k pounds thing, I see that number referenced a couple places, but it could just be one of those internet "telephone game" things. Curious who figured out that number and how.


I googled it, and I'm sure I saw pretty much the same things.  I also saw something about 1300 to 4000 lbs, but I expect that's also just a WAG.  I'm skeptical, though, because on these same sites, it also seemed to overestimate the amount a man can lift, in that the high end of over 800 lbs for a human male is not just elite, but close to the world record.  So, on this site there is the following chart that looks kind of helpful, and for reference, Dwayne Johnson bench presses somewhere around 450 lbs, and it seems pressing over 350 lbs would be considered elite for an average sized dude (180 lbs or less):

Bench press average by weight

Body weight (lbs)UntrainedNoviceIntermediateAdvancedElite1148511013018022012390115140195240132100125155210260148110140170235290165120150185255320181130165200275345198135175215290360220140185225305380242145190230315395275150195240325405319155200245335415320+160205250340425

So, the question is how much stronger are gorillas, pound for pound?  Because if an average gorilla weighs about 300 to 400 lbs, this would suggest they can press 10x their body weight.  That's pretty impressive.  The chart, if we accept it as a good starting point, gives a little more information about possible increase in strength based on the size of the person.

Note there are similar charts for women and also by age.


----------



## Steve

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That last part is why I would want to see an actual experiment.


In addition to above, I appreciate this statement.  I wonder about many things I think would benefit from a somewhat rigorous scientific process.  I'd love to see some data on martial arts and self defense.  I think there are a lot of things that are considered "common sense" in martial arts and self defense that are pure hokum.  Most of this is benign, but boy does it bother me when folks profit from selling fear, and the only effective way to combat that is to get real data out there.  Shoot, as we can see with vaccines, sometimes, even if you do have reliable data, fear mongering is sadly effective.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Tez3 said:


> Looking up a Portuguese site (pro bull fighting) it says since 1923 when fighting from horseback was revived by Antonio Canera. Other sites say tail and ears cut off before the still alive bull is taken out of the arena. Sadly on those sites there were photographs so now I feel quite sick. The short spears were shown as well being used on both the pro and anti sites.



I know, it is quite sad and rather brutal...but you don't see them doing that with a Gorilla.... A Silver back would shatter their skull right after he bench-pressed their horse.....


----------



## Xue Sheng

Xue Sheng said:


> I know it is quite sad and rather brutal.... but you don't see them trying that with a Gorilla...a silver back would shatter their skull right after he bench pressed their horse


----------



## Flying Crane

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You joke, but imagine how much a gorilla could bench if he learned to do actual weight-training.
> 
> Entirely unscientific reasoning below:
> 
> An average untrained male can lift between 135 and 175 pounds per google. If I average that out, it comes out to 155. Some quick google search suggests that most people can lift up to at least 250-300 if they seriously train it; which averages to 275, so that's 1.45 times the amount of weight.
> 
> Per Guinness, the record is 885 pounds. So if we assume that guy was one that could lift 175 to start with, that's just over 5 times the weight. So a gorilla that can bench 4000, assuming that they are otherwise equal to humans in terms of training ability: the average gorilla could bench up to 5800 pounds with training, but an elite specimen could bench up to a theoretical 20000 pounds.


Part of the issue is that their body proportions are different from humans, which creates a difference in leverage in their limbs and body. So in some kinds of strength display, they may score much larger than others, so a pushing exercise like a bench press would be resultant on the specific leverage and body proportions.

By way of example, in an anthropology class I learned about a strength test comparison between humans and chimpanzees, which of course are much smaller than gorillas, but they also have a much different body proportion and leverage, resulting in shocking levels of strength for particular exercises.  They are built for pulling, but I don’t know how it would compare with a push, like a bench press.  Adult male chimps weigh around 150 pounds.  A pulling exercise was set up, and chimps were compared to UCLA football linebackers, so some big fellows.  The chimps were able to pull about 2 1/2 times what the humans could, on the same exercise, in spite of their overall body mass being much smaller.  A chimp, like a gorilla, would tear a human apart, and there are tragic examples of people being maimed and killed when they tried to keep chimps as pets.

But how does this translate into a gorilla?  I don’t know, but I suspect that, like a chimp, their pulling strength would be many times that of a human.  I don’t know how the bench press would compare, but I have to believe the gorilla is far stronger than any human, regardless.  

Make no mistake about it, the gorilla would destroy the human without any effort.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Flying Crane said:


> Part of the issue is that their body proportions are different from humans, which creates a difference in leverage in their limbs and body. So in some kinds of strength display, they may score much larger than others, so a pushing exercise like a bench press would be resultant on the specific leverage and body proportions.
> 
> By way of example, in an anthropology class I learned about a strength test comparison between humans and chimpanzees, which of course are much smaller than gorillas, but they also have a much different body proportion and leverage, resulting in shocking levels of strength for particular exercises.  They are built for pulling, but I don’t know how it would compare with a push, like a bench press.  Adult male chimps weigh around 150 pounds.  A pulling exercise was set up, and chimps were compared to UCLA football linebackers, so some big fellows.  The chimps were able to pull about 2 1/2 times what the humans could, on the same exercise, in spite of their overall body mass being much smaller.  A chimp, like a gorilla, would tear a human apart, and there are tragic examples of people being maimed and killed when they tried to keep chimps as pets.
> 
> But how does this translate into a gorilla?  I don’t know, but I suspect that, like a chimp, their pulling strength would be many times that of a human.  I don’t know how the bench press would compare, but I have to believe the gorilla is far stronger than any human, regardless.
> 
> Make no mistake about it, the gorilla would destroy the human without any effort.


Too bad we don't have the informative button anymore.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:


> Part of the issue is that their body proportions are different from humans, which creates a difference in leverage in their limbs and body. So in some kinds of strength display, they may score much larger than others, so a pushing exercise like a bench press would be resultant on the specific leverage and body proportions.
> 
> By way of example, in an anthropology class I learned about a strength test comparison between humans and chimpanzees, which of course are much smaller than gorillas, but they also have a much different body proportion and leverage, resulting in shocking levels of strength for particular exercises.  They are built for pulling, but I don’t know how it would compare with a push, like a bench press.  Adult male chimps weigh around 150 pounds.  A pulling exercise was set up, and chimps were compared to UCLA football linebackers, so some big fellows.  The chimps were able to pull about 2 1/2 times what the humans could, on the same exercise, in spite of their overall body mass being much smaller.  A chimp, like a gorilla, would tear a human apart, and there are tragic examples of people being maimed and killed when they tried to keep chimps as pets.
> 
> But how does this translate into a gorilla?  I don’t know, but I suspect that, like a chimp, their pulling strength would be many times that of a human.  I don’t know how the bench press would compare, but I have to believe the gorilla is far stronger than any human, regardless.
> 
> Make no mistake about it, the gorilla would destroy the human without any effort.



Which just brings me back to, why would anyone train with someone who was training to fight a Gorilla that's insane, suicidal. That is unless they called it Silverback Kamikaze Jutsu.... at least that way you might know what your getting into


----------



## Tez3

Xue Sheng said:


> Which just brings me back to, why would anyone train with someone who was training to fight a Gorilla that's insane, suicidal. That is unless they called it Silverback Kamikaze Jutsu.... at least that way you might know what your getting into




I think it was to prove you were angry and therefore a superior being.  😂


----------



## Xue Sheng

Tez3 said:


> I think it was to prove you were angry and therefore a superior being.  😂



Actually more like an "ex-angry, suicidal, deceased superior being"...at least after the fight that is


----------



## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:


> Which just brings me back to, why would anyone train with someone who was training to fight a Gorilla that's insane, suicidal. That is unless they called it Silverback Kamikaze Jutsu.... at least that way you might know what your getting into


Oh yeah.  And can you imagine trying to punch a gorilla in the head or face?  You think you can damage that head?  So long, new Doug…

which reminds me of a news story I saw many years ago, a male chimp had escaped a facility somewhere and was running down a street, pounding on cars and scaring the hell out of everyone.  Someone actually hit it over the head with a steel bar and it just kept going like nothing happened.  Keep in mind, a gorilla is far bigger than a chimp. Finally a police officer shot and killed it.

Chimp attacks are savage.  People have had their faces literally bitten off, and their testicles torn off and their bodies torn apart.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:


> Oh yeah.  And can you imagine trying to punch a gorilla in the head or face?  You think you can damage that head?  So long, new Doug…
> 
> which reminds me of a news story I saw many years ago, a male chimp had escaped a facility somewhere and was running down a street, pounding on cars and scaring the hell out of everyone.  Someone actually hit it over the head with a steel bar and it just kept going like nothing happened.  Keep in mind, a gorilla is far bigger than a chimp. Finally a police officer shot and killed it.
> 
> Chimp attacks are savage.  People have had their faces literally bitten off, and their testicles torn off and their bodies torn apart.



I have read a few accounts of Pet Chimps that have viciously attacked their owners. Its great when they are young, but as soon as they grow up, things can get nasty


----------



## Flying Crane

face transplant after chimp attack






A very relevant article:









						Why would a chimpanzee attack a human?
					

After a chimp mutilated a Connecticut woman's face, some are questioning the wisdom of keeping wild animals as pets




					www.scientificamerican.com


----------



## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:


> I have read a few accounts of Pet Chimps that have viciously attacked their owners. Its great when they are young, but as soon as they grow up, things can get nasty


Yes, those chimps we see on tv and in movies that are so cute, are babies and very you g juveniles.  When they hit puberty, they become very unpredictable and dangerous.  A full grown chimp can stand five feet tall when going bipedal.


----------



## Steve

Flying Crane said:


> face transplant after chimp attack
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A very relevant article:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would a chimpanzee attack a human?
> 
> 
> After a chimp mutilated a Connecticut woman's face, some are questioning the wisdom of keeping wild animals as pets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scientificamerican.com


I love the subhead:  "After a chimp mutilated a Connecticut woman's face, some are questioning the wisdom of keeping wild animals as pets."

REALLY?  SOME people are questioning that???


----------



## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:


> Yes, those chimps we see on tv and in movies that are so cute, are babies and very you g juveniles.  When they hit puberty, they become very unpredictable and dangerous.  A full grown chimp can stand five feet tall when going bipedal.


 The old Tarzan movies went through a lot of Cheetahs (Tarzans chip side kick) because of that


----------



## _Simon_

Well, this has been a wonderfully productive and fun direction for the thread, fascinating!

Now... all we need to do is to get a gorilla to join a dojo, and then try to decipher why that new student quit!!!


----------



## Tez3

Xue Sheng said:


> I have read a few accounts of Pet Chimps that have viciously attacked their owners. Its great when they are young, but as soon as they grow up, things can get nasty



There was a documentary showing chimps in the wild hunting down, killing and eating monkeys. In the UK people were horrified because we'd grown up with a well known tea company who used chimps in their TV ads doing human activities. The chimps used were young and very cute but as you say very different when older.


----------



## Tez3

_Simon_ said:


> Well, this has been a wonderfully productive and fun direction for the thread, fascinating!
> 
> Now... all we need to do is to get a gorilla to join a dojo, and then try to decipher why that new student quit!!!



At least it's gone in a better direction, shouldn't be hard to get it back on track.

One reason gorillas would leave I think is lack of stimulation, doing the same thing over and over again is boring! I've heard people say this is why they've left martial arts as well as other things. I'll leave it there lol hopefully to kick start it off again as I have my breakfast and watch the women's mountain biking from Tokyo, very muddy!


----------



## Xue Sheng

Tez3 said:


> There was a documentary showing chimps in the wild hunting down, killing and eating monkeys. In the UK people were horrified because we'd grown up with a well known tea company who used chimps in their TV ads doing human activities. The chimps used were young and very cute but as you say very different when older.



Older chimps will commit murder within their group


----------



## Tez3

Xue Sheng said:


> Older chimps will commit murder within their group



Far too close to humans.


----------



## Steve

Plot twist, the COVID virus is the end of humanity as we know it, while simultaneously accelerating ape evolution.  We're only a few decades from Planet of the Apes.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Steve said:


> Plot twist, the COVID virus is the end of humanity as we know it, while simultaneously accelerating ape evolution.  We're only a few decades from Planet of the Apes.


but which one...
this one





or this one


----------



## chodanbo

Bill Mattocks said:


> *Dear Prospective New Student:*
> 
> First, welcome to our training facility.  We are glad you decided to start your martial arts training journey and we're glad you chose us.  We'd like to share a few things with you to get started, and we'd like to issue a couple of warnings, just so you know what to expect.
> 
> 
> *PRE-QUITTERS:*
> 
> We'll never get to know you, unfortunately.  You've called or come by the training facility, picked up some literature, asked some questions.  Maybe you even stayed and watched some training.  You told yourself that this is something you think you'd like to do.  But for whatever reason, you don't come back.  You may be surprised, but every training facility has people who call multiple times to ask about training, and to state that they will definitely be in the next week to start training.  Some call every year in January; must be a New Year's Resolution or something.  Whatever; you won't sign up, you won't train.  You've quit before you've begun.
> 
> Some of you will ask around online about training.  Where the local facilities are, if this or that art or trainer is well-respected, and so on.  You'll describe your desire to start training, maybe give some background about yourself.  Perhaps you've been in the military and gotten some martial arts training there.  Perhaps you are a little older and trained in some martial arts style as a child and now you'd like to get back into it.  Perhaps you think it would be a good way to lose some weight, to stay fit, to learn self-defense.  You're very inquisitive, and seem enthusiastic, but you won't actually sign up and start training, for whatever reason.
> 
> Some of you will ask about video and book-based training.  You may or may not be pleased with the reply, because although there are some who think martial arts can be learned from a book or from a video, many trained martial artists do not, and they'll give you their unvarnished opinion.  We realize that this will probably lead to some angry words and a rapid departure.  Not only won't you join a martial arts training center, you also won't practice your asked-about book or video learning either.  We won't see you again online, although the discussion threads you've begun will probably continue for some time after you've gone.
> 
> Some of you will describe all the ways that it is impossible for you to train in person.  You live many miles from the nearest training facility.  You do not have a job, and therefore no money.  You do not have a vehicle or access to transportation.  You work or go to school when the training facility offers classes.  There are many reasons why local in-person training is not possible for you.  We can offer only this; finding a way to attend training is the first part of your martial arts journey.  If you cannot do this (and your reasons may be quite real, we're not calling you a liar), you would not keep training anyway; because it only gets harder from there.  If you really want to do it, you will find a way to make it happen, even if it means doing things that are quite uncomfortable or difficult, or making long-range plans that include waiting until you can change your circumstances.  Some will recommend that you wait until you can change your circumstances, but that in the meantime, you consider doing calisthenics, working out, doing weight training, becoming flexible, or taking other classes that can help you later; like ballroom dancing, or jazzercise or yoga or other forms of physical activity that require you to develop balance, rhythm,  and increase your endurance and basic fitness level.  You may reject these; after all, they are not what you want to do.  We agree, but we know from the benefit of having trained for awhile in martial arts that these things can and will benefit you; dancers are often quite good martial artists, people who are flexible from yoga find it easy to perform higher kicks, and so on.  Again, if you are unwilling to consider this type of training while you wait until your circumstances change so that you can get started with martial arts training, you are probably not that serious about martial arts training.
> 
> And let us just say that being a quitter is not a bad thing.  It's not meant to hurt or insult you.  People choose to do or not do things for all kinds of reasons, and just not wanting to do it is a perfectly valid reason.  There is no shame, and no harm, in deciding you don't want to do something; or in deciding after trying it that is just not for you.  Have no fear; walk away and do something you DO like to do.  We're all different, and we all want different things out of life.  No harm, no foul.  You're still a good person; you just don't want to be a martial artist.  Totally OK.
> 
> *DAY ONE QUITTERS:*
> 
> About half of our prospective new students quit after the first day.  Reasons vary, and we don't even know all of them, but our theory is that for many, the reality of our martial arts training does not meet up with their expectations.
> 
> For example, we spend at least 30 minutes of our 2-hour training session doing calisthenics and stretching exercises.  We understand if you are not in good physical condition or if you have physical limitations that prevent you from doing everything we do; but do ask you to do what you can.  We do pushups, we do jumping jacks, we do crunchers and situps and we skip rope.  If you are able to keep pace, you will be breathing hard and sweating by the time we're ready to start any kind of actual training.  We do this because it is important to prepare the body and the mind for the activity that is to come.  We have found that some new students did not expect to have to do hard physical exercise, and that's not what they want to do.
> 
> We also start our newest students off with extreme basics, such as how to make a fist, how to stand, how to step forward and back, how to punch.  This may seem a far cry from smashing bricks or doing 'real' self-defense, but in grade school, you practiced writing your alphabet before you started writing words, and this is no different.  We have found that some new students do not like the idea of beginning at the very beginning.
> 
> It has also been noted that invariably, new students ask us _"How long until I get my black belt?"_  This is a very common and legitimate question, we'd be surprised if you did not ask it; but the answer may not be what you want to hear.  In our training facility, the answer is that it varies, depending upon the student.  At the minimum, it will take several years, and the average for us is probably somewhere in the five year range.  That's a long time, and we understand that may be disappointing for some.  We cannot say that it is not legitimate for a person to have _'earning a black belt'_ as a goal for their training, but in our training facility, we keep two things uppermost in mind.  First, for us, we're more interested in the training we receive than the belt we wear around our waists and second, sho-dan (first degree black belt) is only the beginning of a lifetime's commitment to martial arts training.  We do understand if that is not what you are interested in, but it is what we do here.
> 
> *3 MONTH QUITTERS:*
> 
> We're always happy when a new student returns, especially after the first day!  Unfortunately, we have also noticed that a lot of students stop coming around the the three-month mark.  Again, we're not certain, but there may be a number of reasons for this. We have noted that some students seem to quit after they have received their first or second belt promotions.  This is disappointing to us, because we've invested a lot in you as a student by now, we've gotten to know and like you as a person, and you've put in a lot of hard work.  We've welcomed you into our family, and no that you're not there, we notice it and we miss you.  We wish you'd come back!
> 
> When asked, some have said that they quit because even after three months, they felt they were not learning _'martial arts'._  That is, they were still spending a lot of time on basics.  Stepping, standing, punching, kicking, and the beginnings of kata and the foreign vocabulary words we use in our training facility.  Some of it does not feel like it's very much geared towards self-defense or even the kind of fluid, graceful, martial arts moves one can see in movies or on the Internet.  They might become discouraged or think that they are not progressing.  The fact is, you are progressing, you just don't see it in yourself yet.  You are adding speed and balance and power to your punches, even if you are punching air or a bag.  You are learning distancing and how to hit without hurting your hand, how to kick without hurting your toes.  You're improving; but you just don't see it in yourself yet.  The truth is, you'll probably never see it until you get to the point where you see yourself objectively, but you will get to the point where you see new students who are where you were, and you'll realize that you're not like that anymore.
> 
> The seasons are also changing after three months, in many places.  Fall turns into winter, the weather turns bad.  Students go back to school, schedules change for many of us.  It becomes harder to get to the training facility, harder to dedicate the time necessary.  People catch colds and flu and although they are understandably out for a short period, starting again afterwards can be an uphill slog.  The thing you should remember is that there is only one thing that separates many advanced students from beginning students; they kept attending training.  That's it.  No magic.  They're not more talented than you (OK, maybe some are, and you may be more naturally gifted than some of them), but they kept attending training.  If they seem much better than you are now, that's what time and practice does.  That may seem difficult to accept from the 'beginner' side of things, but it's true.
> 
> Boredom.  Yes, it's true.  Although we vary the routine in our training facility to try to keep things fresh, ultimately we are doing the same things over and over again.  And there is a certain amount of tedium in it if you do not have a long attention span.  But training the body is not exactly the same as training the mind; the body requires repetition to make certain movements natural and reflexive, to apply speed and power to them.  There will come a time when you will see an opening during sparring and you'll throw a punch or a kick and it will go right where you intended it to go, just as you intended it to land; but it will happen because you have thrown that punch of kick hundreds or thousands of times until it seems as natural as swatting a fly or reaching for a kitchen utensil.  It will be in your 'bag of tricks' and you can call upon it anytime you need it.  But until you do it over and over and over again, knowing the movement is not the same as applying the movement.  Yes, it's boring and repetitive and it gets old.  Part of your martial arts journey will be doing things that are not that much fun, without any apparent short-term benefit.
> 
> Afraid to come back after an absence.  Yes, we understand that there are good reasons why you have to stop training for a period of time.  Jobs, school, children, parents, seasons, sickness, injuries, finances, all kinds of reasons, many of them valid.  But we also want you to come back.  We like you by now.  We miss you.  Yes, some of your fellow new students will have advanced since you've been gone.  But that's not a big deal; this is not a race.  You will have lost some training too; you'll forget your kata or forms, your moves will be slow and rusty, you'll have to relearn some things.  But you'll also be surprised at how quickly you'll get it all back once you start training again.  It won't take as long as you think.  So don't think that it's a good idea to stop training permanently just because you had to stop training temporarily.  You don't even have to explain to us why you had to stop; we know how life is.  Just come back and start training again.
> 
> *BLACK BELT QUITTERS:*
> 
> The saddest thing is to see a student quit training when they receive their sho-dan or first-degree black belt.  One instructor put it this way; _"It hurts to know that they see the benefits and choose not to train anyway."_ A student who earns their black belt has generally shown the kind of dedication needed to keep training, to keep learning, to keep trying, no matter the obstacles put in front of them.  You are actively helping others in the training facility; you are looked up to as leaders and newer students model themselves after you.  You are respected and liked; your absence will be sorely felt.
> 
> Why did you quit?  Perhaps you felt like taking a break.  After all, it was a long and difficult climb to that first black belt rank, and there was quite likely an even more difficult last-minute push to make sure you had everything in place to test and pass that milestone.  You were in that last sprint to the finish line and perhaps now it feels like the race is over, or at least that you're not ready to immediately start another race to the next belt.
> 
> Hopefully, you don't think you've learned all there is to learn.  Most black belt students are quite aware that those who have advanced black belts have a level of mastery above them as much as they themselves have over a beginner.  You may have learned all the kata or forms, all the exercises, all the weapons; but it would be wrong to say you've mastered them.  Just as a person with a Bachelor's degree in biology understands the basics of human health, they are in no way a medical doctor.
> 
> Perhaps you feel that you've ticked a box off your bucket list.  If that's all all you wanted, it's perfectly valid; but it does mystify many of us who have turned the corner of perception from martial arts as a way of learning something (self-defense, good conditioning, etc) into seeing martial arts as a way of life, something to be pursued forever, perpetual students who always strive for a deeper level of understanding.  Everyone has their own reasons for training; and for quitting.   There is no 'right' or 'wrong' to it; but once a student reaches black belt range, many life-long students start to think that all black belts feel the same way about training that they do.  It's often a shock to find out that's not the case.
> 
> *THE WAY OF MARTIAL ARTS SUCCESS:*
> 
> The secret, prospective student, is simple, even if it is difficult to implement.  Find a training facility you like, with a qualified instructor that you respect, that teaches what you want to learn.  Find a way to attend regularly, even through difficulty and sacrifice.  Then keep training.  Through boredom, through injuries, through changes in your life that make it difficult to train.  If you have to stop, start again as soon as you can.  Practice when you are not able to train in person.  Repeat this for the rest of your life.  That is the secret to martial arts success.


I can honestly say that it's the fees and cost that drive a lot of students away.  The school I go to focus so much on marketing and not enough teaching and training.  I understand more students equal more money but the quality is gone.  Too much focus is on quantity and not quality can be a turn off as well.


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## Bill Mattocks

chodanbo said:


> I can honestly say that it's the fees and cost that drive a lot of students away.  The school I go to focus so much on marketing and not enough teaching and training.  I understand more students equal more money but the quality is gone.  Too much focus is on quantity and not quality can be a turn off as well.


That is always a problem in a largely unregulated industry.  My best suggestion is to use caution and diligence when choosing a school. There are good ones out there, although they can be hard to find.


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