# Reason for all the high kicks and ariel techniques



## PhotonGuy

A friend of mine who trained in Tae Kwon Do said that the reason for all the high kicks and jumping techniques in Tae Kwon Do was to knock people off horses. In ancient Korea they would often go up against enemies on horseback and the high kicks and jumping techniques were used to knock them off. Im not sure of the validity of that but that's what my friend who had a brown belt in Tae Kwon Do claimed.

He also said that the Koreans used their hands for lots of fine artwork and craftsmanship and as such did not want to damage their hands with training so that is why kicks were emphasized in Tae Kwon Do over hand techniques.


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## Dirty Dog

As with your "origins of the ninja uniform" nonsense, I can only wonder if this "explanation" actually seems reasonable to you. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## drop bear

And not because high kicks make you look cool?

I like the concept of them for a few reasons. One being they are fight finishers that are hard to counter. And that is nothing to be discounted.


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## drop bear

As a side note. Savate is said to include kicks because on a fight on a boat you have to hand on to something.

Savate - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

pure conjecture on my part but capoeira is also kick heave and also traditionally used by sailors.


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## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> As with your "origins of the ninja uniform" nonsense, I can only wonder if this "explanation" actually seems reasonable to you.
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


So if you've got a good explanation lets hear it.

And try not to be like this guy.




He's not a role model.


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## PhotonGuy

drop bear said:


> As a side note. Savate is said to include kicks because on a fight on a boat you have to hand on to something.
> 
> Savate - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> 
> pure conjecture on my part but capoeira is also kick heave and also traditionally used by sailors.



Also it was also supposedly illegal to strike with a closed fist at one time in France, that is another reason why Savate relies so much on kicking techniques.


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## Touch Of Death

PhotonGuy said:


> Also it was also supposedly illegal to strike with a closed fist at one time in France, that is another reason why Savate relies so much on kicking techniques.


Maybe, but probably not. It is a sailors art. You get to swing off ropes an rails, and anything else with a pair of heels on. Heels help you climb ropes.


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## MAist25

The whole aerial kick to knock dudes off of horses is a myth. Or at least there is absolutely no proof that I have ever seen confirming this. The reason for all the fancy kicks in Taekwondo is due to Koreans attempts to connect what was originally just "Korean karate" to the native Korean art of Taekkyon in order to build national spirit. Taekkyon was primarily a kicking art, so pushing Taekwondo to more closely resemble it would kill any resemblance to Karate and give it its own identity, free of Japanese influence.


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## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> A friend of mine who trained in Tae Kwon Do said that the reason for all the high kicks and jumping techniques in Tae Kwon Do was to knock people off horses. In ancient Korea they would often go up against enemies on horseback and the high kicks and jumping techniques were used to knock them off. Im not sure of the validity of that but that's what my friend who had a brown belt in Tae Kwon Do claimed.
> 
> He also said that the Koreans used their hands for lots of fine artwork and craftsmanship and as such did not want to damage their hands with training so that is why kicks were emphasized in Tae Kwon Do over hand techniques.



Is there a question, or are you making a statement?

Did your friend offer any evidence to back his claims? 

I feel like Mythbusters should do a show on the history of TKD. Apart from the likely historical inaccuracy, the sheer physics rule this one out for me. 

Knocking a rider in stirrups off a horse with a jumping kick would be next to impossible, unless they had no idea how to ride and were riding a pony. Have you experience of riding a horse in a saddle with stirrups? Have you ever watched jousting? Two men charge each other at full pelt, and even with the combined speed and mass of both the men and the horses, it is difficult to unseat a rider. The likelihood of the same being possible with a kick is miniscule, even if saddle and stirrups were not used. The potential for gripping the horse with the legs just rules it out. 

Add in an armed rider and... just... no. 

As regards valuing the hands, there are cultural factors relating to the hands and feet in Korea, for example it's considered impolite to sit with the sole of one's foot showing, but I would say these are unlikely to be the reason for favouring kicks.

More likely is that traditional Korean games existed that featured footwork and kicking, and combined with postwar nationalism and the need to re-establish a cultural identity after Japanese occupation, this led the Koreans to take martial arts in their own direction. 

Taekwondo. The way of using the foot to stamp out the fist. Now there's a metaphor for you, and one that might explain some of the kicking focus.


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## RTKDCMB

PhotonGuy said:


> A friend of mine who trained in Tae Kwon Do said that the reason for all the high kicks and jumping techniques in Tae Kwon Do was to knock people off horses. In ancient Korea they would often go up against enemies on horseback and the high kicks and jumping techniques were used to knock them off. Im not sure of the validity of that but that's what my friend who had a brown belt in Tae Kwon Do claimed..


We, the posters, here on MT make a habit of knocking people of their high horses.


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## Earl Weiss

Reading He Young Kims History book he relates how there was criticism in the early days of TKD being just like Karate. One of the ways to differentiate it was to emhasize kicking.   He also relates that the strong lower body typical of many Korean people made this a natural choice.


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## Tez3

Ariel.......'we are such things as dreams are made on"


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## Gnarlie

Earl Weiss said:


> Reading He Young Kims History book he relates how there was criticism in the early days of TKD being just like Karate. One of the ways to differentiate it was to emhasize kicking.   He also relates that the strong lower body typical of many Korean people made this a natural choice.


It is pretty hilly


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## dancingalone

PhotonGuy said:


> A friend of mine who trained in Tae Kwon Do said that the reason for all the high kicks and jumping techniques in Tae Kwon Do was to knock people off horses. In ancient Korea they would often go up against enemies on horseback and the high kicks and jumping techniques were used to knock them off.



This story never passed the smell factor for anyone willing to critically process what they hear from overzealous dojo mates.  Not sure why these myths persist - I think the actual history behind the formation of arts like karate and taekwondo is way more interesting than the cruft that is unfortunately repeated as history and scholarship.


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## TrueJim

During one of the many Mongol invasions of Korea (~1237 C.E.) the Mongols destroyed many of the written records leading up to that time, so Korean history before that time is not well documented. That having been said, middle-ages Koreans did at least have _some_ documents that described their martial arts. In 1608 they published the _Muyejebo_, "The Compendium of Several Martial Arts", the _Muyesinbo_ "New Compendium or Martial Arts", and of course most taekwondo buffs know of the _Muyedobotongji_, "The Comprehensive Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts." As I understand it, each of these references builds-upon and adds-to its predecessor. 

One would think that if *kicking people off horses* was a standard Korean technique during the middle-ages, it would have appeared in one of these references. To my knowledge, it doesn't. As I understand it, what these and other references _do_ indicate is that knocking people off horses was indeed important to the Korean military, because of course that's how Mongols always invaded: on horseback. As I understand it, that's why the bow became the preeminent Korean weapon of choice during the middle-ages, over even the sword, the spear, and also presumably over all the other little batons and nunchuks and other hand-weapons common in other Asian countries: if you want to knock a Mongol off his horse, a bow is apparently your best choice, and small hand weapons aren't much use. 

That having been said, at least the _kicking-people-off-horses_ story a very colorful story that conjures some entertaining mental imagery. 

I think the explanation given by other folks here is the right one though: ancient Korean martial arts apparently tended to favor kicking, so in order to better distinguish taekwondo from karate and other martial arts, and in order to make taekwondo feel distinctly Korean, the post-WWII masters tried to incorporate as much kicking as possible into their arts. I'm glad they did, because I do think it makes taekwondo interesting, unique, fun to perform, and fun to watch!

Mongol invasions of Korea - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Muyejebo - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Muyesinbo - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Muyedobotongji - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia and Muye Dobo Tongji - Taekwondo Wiki


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## drop bear

TrueJim said:


> During one of the many Mongol invasions of Korea (~1237 C.E.) the Mongols destroyed many of the written records leading up to that time, so Korean history before that time is not well documented. That having been said, middle-ages Koreans did at least have _some_ documents that described their martial arts. In 1608 they published the _Muyejebo_, "The Compendium of Several Martial Arts", the _Muyesinbo_ "New Compendium or Martial Arts", and of course most taekwondo buffs know of the _Muyedobotongji_, "The Comprehensive Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts." As I understand it, each of these references builds-upon and adds-to its predecessor.
> 
> One would think that if *kicking people off horses* was a standard Korean technique during the middle-ages, it would have appeared in one of these references. To my knowledge, it doesn't. As I understand it, what these and other references _do_ indicate is that knocking people off horses was indeed important to the Korean military, because of course that's how Mongols always invaded: on horseback. As I understand it, that's why the bow became the preeminent Korean weapon of choice during the middle-ages, over even the sword, the spear, and also presumably over all the other little batons and nunchuks and other hand-weapons common in other Asian countries: if you want to knock a Mongol off his horse, a bow is apparently your best choice, and small hand weapons aren't much use.
> 
> That having been said, at least the _kicking-people-off-horses_ story a very colorful story that conjures some entertaining mental imagery.
> 
> I think the explanation given by other folks here is the right one though: ancient Korean martial arts apparently tended to favor kicking, so in order to better distinguish taekwondo from karate and other martial arts, and in order to make taekwondo feel distinctly Korean, the post-WWII masters tried to incorporate as much kicking as possible into their arts. I'm glad they did, because I do think it makes taekwondo interesting, unique, fun to perform, and fun to watch!
> 
> Mongol invasions of Korea - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> Muyejebo - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> Muyesinbo - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> Muyedobotongji - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia and Muye Dobo Tongji - Taekwondo Wiki



The mongols did not traditionally have big horses. If I was going to jump kick a guy off a horse a mongol horse would be my choice.


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## Dirty Dog

OK, so since you insist... let's pick this apart one bit of foolishness at a time...



PhotonGuy said:


> A friend of mine



You seem to have a lot of friends who spout off a lot of utter nonsense. And apparently you're foolish enough to give credence to their nonsense. Are they all really this stupid, or do they just know that you're gullible and take the opportunity to laugh at you for swallowing their crap?



PhotonGuy said:


> who trained in Tae Kwon Do said that the reason for all the high kicks and jumping techniques in Tae Kwon Do was to knock people off horses. In ancient Korea they would often go up against enemies on horseback and the high kicks and jumping techniques were used to knock them off.



Right. Because apparently the Koreans didn't _*also*_ have horses. And apparently it never occurred to them that there are far easier ways to get someone off a horse than to leap up in the air and kick them. Or that the very notion of an unarmed walker attacking an armed horseman is, well, ludicrous from the start.



PhotonGuy said:


> Im not sure of the validity of that but that's what my friend who had a brown belt in Tae Kwon Do claimed.



A brown belt in an art that doesn't traditionally include a brown belt. And that doesn't set off any alarms on your credibility meter?



PhotonGuy said:


> He also said that the Koreans used their hands for lots of fine artwork and craftsmanship and as such did not want to damage their hands with training so that is why kicks were emphasized in Tae Kwon Do over hand techniques.



Right. Because other Asian cultures didn't do any fine artwork or craftsmanship.


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## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> Is there a question, or are you making a statement?
> 
> Did your friend offer any evidence to back his claims?
> 
> I feel like Mythbusters should do a show on the history of TKD. Apart from the likely historical inaccuracy, the sheer physics rule this one out for me.
> 
> Knocking a rider in stirrups off a horse with a jumping kick would be next to impossible, unless they had no idea how to ride and were riding a pony. Have you experience of riding a horse in a saddle with stirrups? Have you ever watched jousting? Two men charge each other at full pelt, and even with the combined speed and mass of both the men and the horses, it is difficult to unseat a rider. The likelihood of the same being possible with a kick is miniscule, even if saddle and stirrups were not used. The potential for gripping the horse with the legs just rules it out.
> 
> Add in an armed rider and... just... no.
> 
> As regards valuing the hands, there are cultural factors relating to the hands and feet in Korea, for example it's considered impolite to sit with the sole of one's foot showing, but I would say these are unlikely to be the reason for favouring kicks.
> 
> More likely is that traditional Korean games existed that featured footwork and kicking, and combined with postwar nationalism and the need to re-establish a cultural identity after Japanese occupation, this led the Koreans to take martial arts in their own direction.
> 
> Taekwondo. The way of using the foot to stamp out the fist. Now there's a metaphor for you, and one that might explain some of the kicking focus.



It was a question. It was just something I had heard from a friend who did Tae Kwon Do. I was just trying to verify the validity of it.


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## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> It was a question. It was just something I had heard from a friend who did Tae Kwon Do. I was just trying to verify the validity of it.



Then maybe you should have asked a question. You do understand that questions traditionally end with a question mark? That's the "?" symbol at the lower right side corner of your key board - you'll have to also use the "SHIFT" key to access it.

Hope that helps.


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## RTKDCMB

Dirty Dog said:


> A brown belt in an art that doesn't traditionally include a brown belt. And that doesn't set off any alarms on your credibility meter?


Rhee Taekwondo has a brown belt rank so his friend having one does not damage hie friend's credibility, his statement itself does.


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## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> It was a question. It was just something I had heard from a friend who did Tae Kwon Do. I was just trying to verify the validity of it.


I have heard the myth before, but never from anyone with any experience in TKD, and certainly never from a Korean.

I have a copy of Muye Dobo Tongji, and there's certainly nothing in there about dismounting a rider with a kick.

Recently attended an evening of traditional Korean games, and it was surprising how many of them are based around use of the feet. Use of the foot for purposes other than walking does seem to be part of the culture outside of Taekwondo. 

Take Jegi Chagi for example.


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## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> A brown belt in an art that doesn't traditionally include a brown belt. And that doesn't set off any alarms on your credibility meter?


Not everybody who trains in Tae Kwon Do trains in a traditional style. It goes without saying that Tae Kwon Do, along with most arts, has changed over the years and some places teach more modern versions and among the things that have changed, in some schools the ranking system might've changed and that can include adding and removing belt colors. You can find traditional schools that still teach TKD the old way and use the old system of rank but you will also find more modern TKD schools.

Now, I would put in one of your famous Star Trek pictures in this post but Im too polite.

And besides I don't consider Kreese a role model.


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## Dirty Dog

RTKDCMB said:


> Rhee Taekwondo has a brown belt rank so his friend having one does not damage hie friend's credibility, his statement itself does.



There's at least one system of TKD that uses a camouflage belt. Systems are free to use whatever colors they like, of course. Doing so does immediately show that they're not following the traditions of the art but are instead establishing their own traditions. Training in a non-traditional art does make one less credible when discussing traditions and their origins. I wouldn't expect someone who practices Kendo to be familiar with the traditions of Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu.


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## TrueJim

drop bear said:


> The mongols did not traditionally have big horses. If I was going to jump kick a guy off a horse a mongol horse would be my choice.



That's a good point. If I _did_ have a kick a person off a horse, I'd want it to be a small horse. 

The Mongols made extensive use of the bow too though, if I'm not mistaken. In fact, I thought that's one of the things that made them so effective militarily: there were good _archers_ in other parts of the world, and there were good _horsemen_ in other parts of the world, but the Mongols were uniquely good at fighting specifically _with bow from horseback_. 

I don't recall every seeing that ancient Korea had a tradition of fighting with bow from horseback, so I've always assumed the Korean archers who fought the Mongols were probably on-foot, like in this painting: File .jpg - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia . 

In any case, back to the original post: if your opponent is not only on a horse (albeit a small horse) but also armed with a bow (or even a spear or sword!) I wouldn't think kicking would be that effective a tactic: by the time you're close enough to kick you've already been jabbed by something.


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## Gnarlie

If you attempted to kick a person off a horse, even a small one, at least one of the following two things would likely happen:

1) You would fall on your *** and get dangerously trampled post kick while the rider remained seated and stabbed you with a pike / turned you into a pincushion with arrows

2) You'd be getting a potentially lethal kick instead of doing the kicking.

Warhorses are trained to be part of the weaponry.


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## TrueJim

Dirty Dog said:


> Systems are free to use whatever colors they like, of course. *Doing so does immediately show that they're not following the traditions of the art but are instead establishing their own traditions.*



On the other hand, looking at it another way though...   

Like Choi Hong Hi, Rhee Chong Chul lived through the Japanese occupation of Korea, studied martial arts in his youth, and taught martial arts to the Korean military in the 1950s, before arriving in Australia in the 1960s. I think his schools could make a strong case for being as traditional as anybody's. I wouldn't think that Rhee taekwondo is any more or less traditional than Choi Hong Hi's taekwondo. Choi was older, but the two men were essentially contemporaries.

Same thing goes for Lee Haeng Ung: born during the Japanese occupation of Korea (though his family escaped to China to avoid the occupation), studied martial arts in his youth, and taught martial arts to the Korean military in the 1950s, before emigrating to the U.S. in 1962 and starting the ATA. I think the ATA school could also make a strong case that they're as traditional as any taekwondo.

Essentially, if the tradition started in the 1950s -- no matter which tradition it is -- it seems to me that that school could make a good case for being as traditional as taekwondo can get. 

That having been said...ATA! _Camouflage_ belts??? Gah! 

Chong Chul Rhee - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Haeng Ung Lee - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


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## Manny

I think TKD is a heavy kicking martial art because koreans wants to put a line beetwen tehm and japanese karate and they (the koreans) took taekyeon (an ancient korean martial art) as a model to develop TKD, may be I am going to writte something wrong but... could TKKD be the a modern version of taekyon?

Manny


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## TrueJim

Manny said:


> could TKKD be the a modern version of taekyon?  Manny



Even if it were, we would never know. So little record exists of taekyon that nobody really knows what it looked like. I know there's a modern martial art that calls itself taekyon, but from what I've read that style is -- at best -- just one style of taekyon, when taekyon presumably may have had may different styles. (At least, I've read conjectures that there may have been many different styles -- and when you think about it, it makes sense that there would have been -- middle-ages martial arts in other countries often had many distinct styles).


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## jks9199

Put this story in the same pile as the idea that karate was developed to fight unarmed against the samurai, punching through their armor.  Or that kung fu was developed for out of shape monks who couldn't meditate.


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## Drose427

Dirty Dog said:


> OK, so since you insist... let's pick this apart one bit of foolishness at a time...
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to have a lot of friends who spout off a lot of utter nonsense. And apparently you're foolish enough to give credence to their nonsense. Are they all really this stupid, or do they just know that you're gullible and take the opportunity to laugh at you for swallowing their crap?
> 
> 
> 
> Right. Because apparently the Koreans didn't _*also*_ have horses. And apparently it never occurred to them that there are far easier ways to get someone off a horse than to leap up in the air and kick them. Or that the very notion of an unarmed walker attacking an armed horseman is, well, ludicrous from the start.
> 
> 
> 
> A brown belt in an art that doesn't traditionally include a brown belt. And that doesn't set off any alarms on your credibility meter?
> 
> 
> 
> Right. Because other Asian cultures didn't do any fine artwork or craftsmanship.



Quick question, as my school is TSD that calls ourselves TKD, I assume our belt colors follow the Okinawan or Japanese colors from where our lineage goes, (White, yellow, Green, Brown, Red, Blue, Black, with single colored tip until red) What is the usual belt colors for actual TKD? Because it's so vast I assume there are some differences, but is there a more common standard?


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## Drose427

PhotonGuy said:


> Not everybody who trains in Tae Kwon Do trains in a traditional style. It goes without saying that Tae Kwon Do, along with most arts, has changed over the years and some places teach more modern versions and among the things that have changed, in some schools the ranking system might've changed and that can include adding and removing belt colors. You can find traditional schools that still teach TKD the old way and use the old system of rank but you will also find more modern TKD schools.
> 
> Now, I would put in one of your famous Star Trek pictures in this post but Im too polite.
> 
> And besides I don't consider Kreese a role model.



But If someone isn't traiing in a traditional style, I'd be vary cautious of any "traditions" or "origins" they're claiming to know. it just shows a disconnect


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## Dirty Dog

Drose427 said:


> Quick question, as my school is TSD that calls ourselves TKD, I assume our belt colors follow the Okinawan or Japanese colors from where our lineage goes, (White, yellow, Green, Brown, Red, Blue, Black, with single colored tip until red) What is the usual belt colors for actual TKD? Because it's so vast I assume there are some differences, but is there a more common standard?



TKD belt ranks usually are white, yellow, green, blue, red, black. Intermediate ranks are generally "striped" in the color of the next rank. We do this by the simple expedient of wrapping a piece of colored electrical tape around the belt tip.
KKW schools that award baby black belts use a half red/half black belt for that rank.


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## Drose427

Dirty Dog said:


> TKD belt ranks usually are white, yellow, green, blue, red, black. Intermediate ranks are generally "striped" in the color of the next rank. We do this by the simple expedient of wrapping a piece of colored electrical tape around the belt tip.
> KKW schools that award baby black belts use a half red/half black belt for that rank.



We do 1 tip of the next belt color in between actual color belts. I've seen schools at tourneys with anywhere from 3-5 stripes though. Although we do blue then black, its nice to see we dont to things _ too _differently


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## TrueJim

As previously mentioned, some Kukkiwon schools used the _red-belt-with-a-black-stripe_ for "junior black belts" who are not yet of age. When the student turns 15 they can trade-in their _red-belt-with-a-black-stripe_ for a conventional black belt. 

Some other Kukkiwon-style schools insert a rank between 1st Gup and 1st Dan though, so you'll see even *adult* students wearing the "bo-black" _red-belt-with-a-black-stripe_. The school that my son and I attend is like that: the bo-black belt basically means you've learned all the Taegeuk forms but you haven't yet passed your 1st Dan test. Since dan testing happens only a couple of times a year at our school, it's not uncommon to spend 4-5-6 months wearing a bo-black belt. I've seen that at other schools as well. What purpose does this extra belt-level serve? At our school, there are some classes during the week that only the black belt students may attend; the bo-blacks are allowed to attend those classes as well.

The head of our school is a Kukkiwon 7th Dan from Korea who started studying taekwondo in 1979. Now what he told us just recently is that at the school *he* attended wa-a-a-ay back in '79 in Korea, they only had three belt colors: white, brown, and black. Then as time went on, he said, his school started adding more colors (to better mark the students' progress).


In the past I've looked at a lot of websites of a lot of taekwondo schools, curious about all the different variations of the color schemes. The school my son and I attend is a large school (hundreds of students - we had one class recently with 90 students in the class, but that was as special occasion) so we tend to not use tape-tips for belt colors, because it makes it hard for the instructors to see _at-at-glance_ who should be working on what. I think that might actually be a trend at larger schools: using many different belt colors (i.e., without using tips) perhaps makes it a little easier to organize large classes.

From what I've been able to see here in the U.S. at least, there doesn't _seem_ to be any "most common" color scheme. There appear to be many variations, and I haven't been able to note that any particular scheme is substantially more common than any other. At least, that's been my observation.


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## WaterGal

TrueJim said:


> During one of the many Mongol invasions of Korea (~1237 C.E.) the Mongols destroyed many of the written records leading up to that time, so Korean history before that time is not well documented. That having been said, middle-ages Koreans did at least have _some_ documents that described their martial arts. In 1608 they published the _Muyejebo_, "The Compendium of Several Martial Arts", the _Muyesinbo_ "New Compendium or Martial Arts", and of course most taekwondo buffs know of the _Muyedobotongji_, "The Comprehensive Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts." As I understand it, each of these references builds-upon and adds-to its predecessor.
> 
> One would think that if *kicking people off horses* was a standard Korean technique during the middle-ages, it would have appeared in one of these references. To my knowledge, it doesn't. As I understand it, what these and other references _do_ indicate is that knocking people off horses was indeed important to the Korean military, because of course that's how Mongols always invaded: on horseback. As I understand it, that's why the bow became the preeminent Korean weapon of choice during the middle-ages, over even the sword, the spear, and also presumably over all the other little batons and nunchuks and other hand-weapons common in other Asian countries: if you want to knock a Mongol off his horse, a bow is apparently your best choice, and small hand weapons aren't much use.



Muyejebotonji does have a bunch of different spear forms/techs in it, including at least one spear I've never heard of before (a spear with lots of branching spikes stuck all over it like a tree).  It also has some strange ideas about Japanese swordwork, stating that they end their fights by throwing their swords down and wrestling each other.

But yeah, I think you're right that if the Koreans had actually been kicking people off horseback, the technique would've been mentioned in there or somewhere. I think it's one of those colorful tall tales people tell because it sounds cool.  "Wow, ancient Korean dudes were so bad*** that they could jump-kick a guy off a horse!"


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## Dirty Dog

TrueJim said:


> As previously mentioned, some Kukkiwon schools used the _red-belt-with-a-black-stripe_ for "junior black belts" who are not yet of age. When the student turns 15 they can trade-in their _red-belt-with-a-black-stripe_ for a conventional black belt.



Technically, any school that doesn't do this isn't following the KKW rules. Those of us that don't do baby black belts don't let this bother us.



TrueJim said:


> Some other Kukkiwon-style schools insert a rank between 1st Gup and 1st Dan though, so you'll see even *adult* students wearing the "bo-black" _red-belt-with-a-black-stripe_. The school that my son and I attend is like that: the bo-black belt basically means you've learned all the Taegeuk forms but you haven't yet passed your 1st Dan test. Since dan testing happens only a couple of times a year at our school, it's not uncommon to spend 4-5-6 months wearing a bo-black belt. I've seen that at other schools as well. What purpose does this extra belt-level serve? At our school, there are some classes during the week that only the black belt students may attend; the bo-blacks are allowed to attend those classes as well.



I could tell you what goes on in those classes, but then I'd have to kill you...

The rank you're referring to is called "Chodanbo", which means, literally "half a 1st degree Black Belt" but the concept is one of "black belt candidate" or "trainee black belt".
We use that rank. Students typically spend 1-1.5 years as Chodanbo. In our Moo Duk Kwan school, this is the period during which they transition from student to teacher. Our 1st Dan test would be similar to the KKW 2nd Dan, in that we require 6 Kicho forms, 8 Palgwae and Koryo to test for Chodanbo. Those seeking KKW certification also learn the 8 Taegeuk forms.



TrueJim said:


> The head of our school is a Kukkiwon 7th Dan from Korea who started studying taekwondo in 1979. Now what he told us just recently is that at the school *he* attended wa-a-a-ay back in '79 in Korea, they only had three belt colors: white, brown, and black. Then as time went on, he said, his school started adding more colors (to better mark the students' progress).



Interesting. Especially since by 1979 the unification movement was well established in South Korea, and the Kukkiwon was pretty much the only game in town. 
It would be interesting to learn what school he attended, and with what Kwan it was affiliated.


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## Dirty Dog

WaterGal said:


> It also has some strange ideas about Japanese swordwork, stating that they end their fights by throwing their swords down and wrestling each other.



That happens at the after party...


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## RTKDCMB

Dirty Dog said:


> TKD belt ranks usually are white, yellow, green, blue, red, black. Intermediate ranks are generally "striped" in the color of the next rank. We do this by the simple expedient of wrapping a piece of colored electrical tape around the belt tip.
> KKW schools that award baby black belts use a half red/half black belt for that rank.


We do the same instead our red belt is brown.


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## RTKDCMB

Dirty Dog said:


> There's at least one system of TKD that uses a camouflage belt. Systems are free to use whatever colors they like, of course. Doing so does immediately show that they're not following the traditions of the art but are instead establishing their own traditions. Training in a non-traditional art does make one less credible when discussing traditions and their origins. I wouldn't expect someone who practices Kendo to be familiar with the traditions of Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu.


Changing the color of one belt is trivial. I think you will find that schools who have a camouflage belt usually have belt colors in stead of tips between other belt colors.


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## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> A friend of mine who trained in Tae Kwon Do said that the reason for all the high kicks and jumping techniques in Tae Kwon Do was to knock people off horses. In ancient Korea they would often go up against enemies on horseback and the high kicks and jumping techniques were used to knock them off. Im not sure of the validity of that but that's what my friend who had a brown belt in Tae Kwon Do claimed.
> 
> He also said that the Koreans used their hands for lots of fine artwork and craftsmanship and as such did not want to damage their hands with training so that is why kicks were emphasized in Tae Kwon Do over hand techniques.



Really. Which web page do you source this nonsense from. Truly curious as it seems like a right laugh


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## TrueJim

RTKDCMB said:


> I think you will find that schools who have a camouflage belt usually have belt colors in stead of tips between other belt colors.



Well you know, that's a good point. I think all ATA schools use a camouflage belt, and I believe their colors go: White, Orange, Yellow, Camouflage, Green, Purple, Blue, Brown, Red, Black -- no striped or tipped belts in their spectrum. I've wondered before if maybe the camouflage belt is included in ATA-style in part because Lee Haeng Ung let his military background influence the aesthetics of his style, but maybe it was just because he needed another color and everything in ROYGBIV was already taken. It was either go with camouflage or _pink!_


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## RTKDCMB

Dirty Dog said:


> There's at least one system of TKD that uses a camouflage belt. Systems are free to use whatever colors they like, of course. Doing so does immediately show that they're not following the traditions of the art but are instead establishing their own traditions. Training in a non-traditional art does make one less credible when discussing traditions and their origins. I wouldn't expect someone who practices Kendo to be familiar with the traditions of Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu.



Basing an evaluation of a persons credibility on their system changing one of their belt colors rather than the content of their statement  is not logical. The op's question was more whether his friends statement was historically accurate (which it is not) rather than how traditional it was.


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## Manny

Some time back a sabonim told the blets in early TKD maybe around mid60's was white, blue, red and black the collors of the korean flag..

Manny


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## Jaeimseu

It's amazing to me how much information is out there. Taekwondo is a relatively young art. By the time taekwondo was created horses weren't often found on the field of battle. The side kick, therefore, was never intended to kick people off of horses. 

It is common knowledge (in Korea) that the flying sidekick was developed exclusively as a means of kicking enemy soldiers off of motorcycles. Korean soldiers would hide in ditches next to roads used by enemy riders and execute the flying sidekick. 

This was a very common occurrence during the war in Vietnam. Vietcong letters were found warning VC soldiers not engage in motorcycle travel if Koreans were in the area because of the ROK army's deadly taekwondo. 

In fact, the flying sidekick is still used by police and civilians alike in combat against the infamous "motorcycle mafia," the toughest motorcycle gang on the planet. 

I can't believe you guys don't already know this stuff. Go to your library and read a book.


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## Gnarlie

Jaeimseu said:


> It's amazing to me how much information is out there. Taekwondo is a relatively young art. By the time taekwondo was created horses weren't often found on the field of battle. The side kick, therefore, was never intended to kick people off of horses.
> 
> It is common knowledge (in Korea) that the flying sidekick was developed exclusively as a means of kicking enemy soldiers off of motorcycles. Korean soldiers would hide in ditches next to roads used by enemy riders and execute the flying sidekick.
> 
> This was a very common occurrence during the war in Vietnam. Vietcong letters were found warning VC soldiers not engage in motorcycle travel if Koreans were in the area because of the ROK army's deadly taekwondo.
> 
> In fact, the flying sidekick is still used by police and civilians alike in combat against the infamous "motorcycle mafia," the toughest motorcycle gang on the planet.
> 
> I can't believe you guys don't already know this stuff. Go to your library and read a book.


Hi Jaeimseu, I'm not challenging the validity of this, just interested in your sources....I had heard the same thing but only verbally. Can you recommend a book that covers this theme?


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## Cirdan

Jaeimseu said:


> It is common knowledge (in Korea) that the flying sidekick was developed exclusively as a means of kicking enemy soldiers off of motorcycles. Korean soldiers would hide in ditches next to roads used by enemy riders and execute the flying sidekick.
> 
> This was a very common occurrence during the war in Vietnam. Vietcong letters were found warning VC soldiers not engage in motorcycle travel if Koreans were in the area because of the ROK army's deadly taekwondo.



Yeah, because shooting them off the bikes wouldn`t work.


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## Jaeimseu

Gnarlie said:


> Hi Jaeimseu, I'm not challenging the validity of this, just interested in your sources....I had heard the same thing but only verbally. Can you recommend a book that covers this theme?


Of course. I'm working under the assumption that people interested in taekwondo have undergone the proper study and are able to read Korean. Just check out the Korean book section at your local library. You can start with the following titles:

"오토바이 마피아"
"오토바이 겨루기"
"뛰어옆차기사"
"태권도 거짓말"
"내 이야기 진짜 믿지 않죠?"


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## Jaeimseu

Cirdan said:


> Yeah, because shooting them off the bikes wouldn`t work.


Shooting was considered too noisy. Also, it wasn't flashy enough. The VC wasn't scared of guns, only deadly taekwondo...especially the flying sidekick. 

In some cases, particularly skilled flying sidekickers were known to take out 2 or more riders at once, if the bikes were riding in a line.


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## Cirdan

Jaeimseu said:


> Shooting was considered too noisy. Also, it wasn't flashy enough. The VC wasn't scared of guns, only deadly taekwondo...especially the flying sidekick.
> 
> In some cases, particularly skilled flying sidekickers were known to take out 2 or more riders at once, if the bikes were riding in a line.



Complete and utter rubbish.


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## Jaeimseu

Cirdan said:


> Complete and utter rubbish.



I know it's hard to believe, but I see the Korean police training this technique all the time. They don't carry firearms, you see. Flying sidekick is the absolute best technique to combat the motorcycle mafia.


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## Cirdan

Jaeimseu said:


> I know it's hard to believe, but I see the Korean police training this technique all the time. They don't carry firearms, you see. Flying sidekick is the absolute best technique to combat the motorcycle mafia.



Maybe they don`t have cars or other motor veichles either?


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## Jaeimseu

Cirdan said:


> Maybe they don`t have cars or other motor veichles either?


Of course we have cars, but have you ever tried to jump through the window of a moving car? It's just not very practical. Against a motorcycle? Extremely effective.


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## Cirdan

Jaeimseu said:


> Of course we have cars, but have you ever tried to jump through the window of a moving car? It's just not very practical. Against a motorcycle? Extremely effective.



I meant, don`t your police have cars and motorcycles?


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## Transk53

Jaeimseu said:


> It's amazing to me how much information is out there. Taekwondo is a relatively young art. By the time taekwondo was created horses weren't often found on the field of battle. The side kick, therefore, was never intended to kick people off of horses.
> 
> It is common knowledge (in Korea) that the flying sidekick was developed exclusively as a means of kicking enemy soldiers off of motorcycles. Korean soldiers would hide in ditches next to roads used by enemy riders and execute the flying sidekick.
> 
> This was a very common occurrence during the war in Vietnam. Vietcong letters were found warning VC soldiers not engage in motorcycle travel if Koreans were in the area because of the ROK army's deadly taekwondo.
> 
> *In fact, the flying sidekick is still used by police and civilians alike in combat against the infamous "motorcycle mafia," the toughest motorcycle gang on the planet. *
> 
> I can't believe you guys don't already know this stuff. Go to your library and read a book.



You know what, being an ex biker, I can see this as possible, but not very practical if on a Fireblade. A military bike I can see that. Heavy and cumbersome, would not be difficult to whack a rider and sending them flying. Probably from a object like a brick though.


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## Transk53

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2JicCf3v71key62mQkf50jxI63Ai5FBPsh23LpwilQFglAM3WgE2gQDlCtfwp4V2JGITlJUuVI1BHiP56itEzFoyjDqcQyEyDMKQoGQSBuI1lM/wBoqZjDqSmCDVftN2fdDyMRgkgISe+U2CAN4WUjS8yU2k33mreA2224BPgUdyrXGok7xwMGk0NyszePSQsjcaHd7nS4DMgH4Gj3aBAC586yG1DClQbrhIA3qUYj1ioY0BDhlP43IswGk5SRcQkRI6kz0q3iezykk90pca/GLGRuoxjcCpDilspELQjNb8IyzPT3k1RxOdMkkjcVTr86zbdmySozmIYcTYwocdI+pql3Kwd2/nqI0Iowtoq4xA130wMnz600yXEGQriPT9aVFsivwD0NKixUdbQqvCqvcnSpA3zqyRsc6AbT7UtIVlChbUi59wtQ3tzt3ISwgkR/EUNb6IHPefKufP4hKLLkq/AkgR/Mog35AeY0pcDUWzo+H2i28bKE7518gfjUeMYKbozTrafjpXP8LjUyDlW3wUDm84gHzHpW42ZtFRRkXBVYgzZQOigR9a09yH3Tb/Tks7N224FZSTzmPjpWsdwP7SwpLiPCoQSDPMKF7RresU+8tkhU5xPiTuUN4yyQLaUaRtJzCqnDqlJv3awcpB4GPCb7t82MUqsbSSuLsze39lLGFVh13cwbyFpIHtNPWJH+XMZrPDGttvJS4VpbJHeFABISTBgGxUROtuM10Ham228S6gBlxCiw+h2QBlSQFJImAtIUCoRfUResojZyUErV4lbjwsBbhpNUsmTVMAPYHvFrUnO22VEoSeE28PTfV7CsFMZQMoIEkwBxPE0XbwOYkriNwvv3yDVk4NEezpaixtNYYM2g+CSlClZMoF7Sd6rHyA3dagbSpZyz7WsnXqTr51afwgmBb/mqONUGgCo3OgGpqLspRdWEMRsAFtSluoOVJOW+cxuSreeAVI6VkcTstQkp8YFzAhQ5lGscxI50bwi3MhUoQF2HQEGBwMxcVIsAxxGh3jmCLg1LTXB0wmpqtRX7+v58/kA2NllSZStC1C5SmTE6SqInlVvZG1e6zJUCUq9pNiP6kKsalxWGCjJkK/Giyv6kiArqIPWqy8QtEF1CHkCwXHuKokGNyhNJTkuTaehozVxdV159VyvK0XHEYd0/u1dys6JVJbPnGZHoR0pjuHcZIDiSAr2TqlXNKxZXkapd205/DXkO9Lnxz3Hwqdla2FBK5U0TdEnIscYBF+eorRTTdHJPs84rdyvFZX48w52f2yxg8Yy+pslbRmxgHMhQk2M2UeHWuoOdt2HglxsnQ5h95HFUXSpIjXrANq4bi05kgi5Rbqkm3oSR5irXZba4wz4UtOZCgUrHJVp8vfpvqzA+h9k7RRiUpUh0EJjMkkXCgYlI0Njast9sGDR3TLqUpDgdAzj2h4Seh0Gtedl8Vs1pKsQ28ApQgDxLKZMkBsJkE213DdegnbbtM3iYaQjw5s5KsuZRSIBCATkEKIvcxTQjC4PbzzSu6UsrhRsqSBN5SdQOVaLsGx+04heKf9hsw2NynItAGuUD3g1lNrMJ7wRaR9fGuo/Z3gGmG8OlR/ePKJSN51UVRuSlEGeJA1NZtlxQZxWwgqIEAJSCJ4QfQT9a1A/2VzA5jYXABPW3HpWw/Y0qEHQ31vM70m0+XWon2Cj2QOQg/RtWL8ToXgjBvdkROtrCyY13RqSONRP9k4AAuDxgXtzO751vjhwDBtI0IMzwAPwHzqZpASqUhRsAJSRMzAuPCRe55Ukhujmn/sueC/8A9f50q6X3Sfwp/sNKq2sm0AA0OF6rY5QabW4dEJKj5Cw86IJSeVZ3t+9kwsaFa0iOQlWvVIrUwOT7WxhzLcUZWVGD/nNyr+nd1TVXZuxHHgFIy5ZWCpSgBmQATO8e0I43qttFyVAfhTPmq/wI9KNbJxGTDBKkzmUSiw3G5neJ48qEXJpVHwInthuokKCTp4goFI/q0HSiScblEIzWUSFEzqLwIsJ0/U0Px2PVHignWIG4RMxNUGXyrMo6CPOZ0HC3worxDvFFfoxfP8o6BsbaiFo/eNIWeJKvkaNrcafbCO5GVlKoUMxCEqM+JQMpSFEmYOqqwDySw0lSbkRnE8dSOcx9CtT2bUXsDjyCfE0An+ZCVuGf7ffV8mcZbXZBi32FrbW3mKkoCVFQNyknxCbnXWBVFxjvcSUh4BAbukXKZkzk+8o5Te4AidQCJQ+AnwyBunXzitT2M2i01iCl1JOdYhdrKSChIP8AliBPG9TGNKkXqa0tSe+eSlhsT7TZObuSUj+TMd26FGf6jrUql0R7ebLCHv2xgTP8ZA3iIKh5a+vGgCsTu9/EG4PmDU8OjSS36amumH9H9PIiddvQ7aahnbJ3JcJ/0AfA1O6vfQ/F4JbzrTabFYIJ3JAMlR5AUJZIcv00TM4sqb/yknKPMAnzy+4V5mqXENJCilsQhPhSOQ3zxOvnSS3TEsEaSd1StsE3mJ15jgQbKHI1Khukt2KVFR1HF2gfitmJ1TCTykpPlco946ULxDZRqNdIuD0I1ojjtowDluR6Chi2lKQHTe9/I/8AFOKCeopLKz7seq+1E2FWqCoJMIEq6aabxVtW02VA5m0z/Kr5GKfsyAh1Svvp7pHNSlJPoEg+ooa+uEEHf9fKiMstBqae2EZeJcTtBlMfuAqdJKxN+S/lTGsaknNlygGwSZiN96i2a0FhuRIS54v5ZSfzo/2P7DvYx1QVmQy0opcWBclJIKGx95VjfQe4tujNRbPNm7JXi1LOGClrSJPh0O4lR8JPLU1v/sv7MvNOOYnFpV3kd2gLnQkFRI3JsBpzrbbD2W3h0IZZbDaRu1J1lZMyom9zc0WSEi06fLWZGtYvUbNlppEanyTliANJSfcrTzpDEWOdJkk2EGfl609Lwgi5HUn5V4cRAMqHT3b9N1RuRe1jmmrjWd4/M1HBsIBE2vY9KeHhAve1hYzby5VIIUZBsOOhtpb8qq0yaZDlTwT6qpU/J/k9wr2ih2A201h/tUWcjI/+4fQJ/Ot4kDcKxH2lNGGFQLd5qAQbJMEGx00Nq2Oc46+2VOLABJKsoAEk3gAAanS1afbOxH8LkDyMnhCU3SbJHImDeb0MTt91kuoQGx+/Q7JbQboBgC1gd8RPnR3bm1X8Q0kOzCjnSpSgZ8NrAcJv+VNcD1PbfxM6lSDnzpzZhAvGW+otV7ZnZTGYlGbDYZbjcxIKPfKh8KGtMrcByIJA1jnp8DWi2D2gxGACgwuCowokAjw2iCLcM3TXSmQavs19n2IxDQTiGnGVIlKguDnmSFhU2SAAkpEmwO81W2MwrZ6FNYvDrSFKLgUhU+0hbeWDKSClatCKP7O7UYnENJcYdyuBSQ6hRESo2VJHhSbzuEGIi+R7YY/9tW44EJLaMqHIWqZBInTLBJHjSCmcu40wM02yEIQkKzmAISJMkwEQJlWlhxopj8OplZBSUxcSCLbtd40I3EEaiq+zMSlh5pZIWE3AJBMSUkKgmJGYCCdxqLtJtYvYhRvlWAtKZtvGkxPhoA0yNulTThVfwKBEifEI0136xWfVBByzCLX1yKJyz0MjzFM2OshQVPskR4Zv0IrQdqcS2pGHxIQlObM0+lIgEESFAbvZmOfmY1E2rXQ6eyzSnslxLD93g/J5M+2mTerLmLLIlKAoqhEnVIJBMciUimhrKrKfI8RuNOxIlPmPiKUXeURq6ctOThLlFbLTwKQqN9yKDM8deihjj5WYBgbz8hTMW8TYV7hW4BNMRE+nUDTSjmwmg7hFJIuErA6gZv8Ay6AOAqcS2mMyyEiTABUYEk6a0f2MruWsTHiLZUB4kwQPCSCJkwVXEiL3qlyD4M6cUpcEg2ACQLATew3Tx308PJmVoKr3v/6YokwcCkBKhjASBIStkgcpU2DNWAdm/wD1qfNj/spbUavWk+cg0PtQUtq7sk3mQCOFrb9SB5Vqti9tMcyUglLyJ0UBf+VbcAnnehuHTswnxKxSgQbEIkcwUoPppRfC4DZCoyYvEYdQ1zIkKjeZRrRtYt8Xyq+H2f3R0fYfa1t4ASppX4VW9DoaOKxNoPrNZHYG18A213D+KadCtHSQCBuCk62I1N6uYfEhtYQ04nEMKMJUg5yidLj7t/KplprqJajXBopGoAJ5KO/pr0qUFAEkpE7p0vvB0Gu+qChpAuOlToxCk6HdF6x7prg2721kvNOAixF950A5WuacTBIUQZScpvJ47xxHvqixiCLFOunXjrrXqMXE/eI1BiCDy46gUuOhV2W+9XxP+r/vpVS/xZP/AMFX96a9pWvENr8CIKFZvt1h8zCFfgcE77KBH5VpCRwFVtsYbvWXG/xJt1FxfqK6TlOKbQ7PLU46UpsWpEb1ticvmlJq/hmGlMMofIIzEt3gkJymJ0EhYtqRpWt2S+EhKiJy68QQeG++vEQN9Y7b+wijGJw0DuniO5k2AXCQmdAUk5egTxFVWAnzfiaLZWyQ+vumEtspSCshImJ0VEyq9V3eyn7GgturDoUCpK8pGhhSTc3gpOvHhR8PfseJSsoSUOpQ2VRCm1NgAhUTJKQLWHgHWpvtF2m0MKUSlThUMkG6LTmtp4THPNSeASs55s/aZwz5UgApulaDotJ1Sfz3ECju0sOpCFYrCIZVh3ElJmQU2u24geEHXxaW3SJxSVz9fKr2zsepuQCcp1E+/rTskpbQbRMtqzCwJiL5QY1MxMVTfdylC7EpkQdIMke9SvdR7GYZLiPAREg2tHOBoZoY7gUJzEnMMpHiMZZFlZhYkHdvoAu4fFEICj98SLRI4j015UxzGpWgocWUJMqEDNKgk5RrbhO6h+AWppoupGZDngkaoNyUkfdJG/fBp37e2UpQWyEx4lJAznUjxLsLn040AEdi4jvE90TC0XbJ3j8J5fKOFXiZSbQRYjgaybTikkKFlC4rWMPjEN94mAsCFj5fMH9a5pf9cvc/kz2NOK7bo7f7kFj/AGivqv2Kk1Uxy4FWpqntEaVseSUw1NWwmE9aZh05jAvO4b+Q41M9YxBHkasQ5jwAu/fnK3yMXWP5QbcyOFG/s32Mh9TzapzZFpRBi6kkJJ/Fv1oJjAcrSU6lNuqiT8I9K0/2W+DEd6lSMiVhqCr94pUe3k3I8evSs4PNnVqRqorp820ZcbLSptkrMEBSFx+JJIQZ4EAelVNubM7lZShaH0pGZSm8xSNJBNjYqAJ0kijnaJ7uMTjmSbZ1oA5SkoP9qffUnY5LRKe+/hv/ALQyoxMBbKTPK6Nd0TurZpZRyJuzK4Z9O45DwUZT/dqnzkdK0Gz8MhfhcGVW48eXnuNC9obIQyXWlZ1LCobXGUEAmTlOoUChQubb7zRBrEoK1BKFIQpX7tOoaBHs5tYkHyO6DOfsm6rUw8MPMdnURm1G7l1rR9mW+4KlJJyk3TuI48t96EbGxkylWosr5GieHxJCrezx49Pzq2sWYZTpm4CwRI33n9aeVW5fWlBtj4ixTuMwOEG4Hx9aKx76godn6enxpoHv4V6RSCY+FIBk/wA3+qlTp5mlRSK3HpMa150+JNNDl9KY4ocadEmV243+zvd4B4HTJHAjX8+MTGlYnb+HKlKCVANLX3mUkQFEXW2uISTvTaSBawjpe2Mi0FDgJSRu1F7EEaEazXMdp4pxhRSU50TZek/zAWnyE0xp1hq0TpxpKAHXFlQtYpVmAjKSJJB6+ooLtbHFRidOcxyn691QYrapVYAJHKqBXSrORuaqoqiYLinpdmmMtE21nQaz5VueynZJKYcxSc2oS2b7ozL58Bu16NkGNbVzrxZI0JjrW82p2HbVJw6i2fwKlSfI+0POayW0tjvsfxGzH4hdPqNPOKABRPxExaeVQOqg1aUkVC6i1ADsJg1OyEXUJ8PQEyPIGm4DGlpeYaaKHEcKgaeUhUpJBG/rqOYPCm3i+tJpNUytPUlpyUo8o0+JayEb0n2T8jz+uNVNoDSp9i40OI7pzUCx4j8xTNoslIynyP4h+fEVjpzd7Jc/uen2zssXBdp0PYfK/wAX4BXEYpfdYd9B8TacvEQmbRwindq2EpUzk1U2CeqxKj6lVVtm41JwTiFe0HMwPleq72L71yZslMDytW55jCbB71TSilKg033ELiLlZBTF1KCIA86stJaZebfQoGJzpAuiSQBJNxIST5VSOcMStACyEoTYAgEheaI9rIlPi18Yqg44bEiCSfQfr8KEObzS6BftY8hWPexIUGgppKkpcbDgdWlKU5CknKAYmTMcKy+BUpSkthQSkFTl4iQki3M6RvtWl7SYYO4ZC/vJFvyrHsYdak98EKLQOTPoM+XNlnjANXJ2Zo3mFYQ+z3blxCkoUSR3SpnxR9zMASkyLBQ543apSklsoyuIlCkmfCRIMyYkbotv6ktlYwt4kBclL5BJVzEJJG5QMpPJXIVZ7XYHOpl5IlSh3Tn8zYGVR5lsgf8A4zUjI9i4pUIXpfIonfAsQeMfDnWtUslIO/T0qPaOCSnAdwAlLuEIVYfxEOGUuj+aIPAhQ3VW2a8VtA2ki88RY6dKIdUXq5Sl48/FBjAYwpyn8J/WfrcTW2SkEAjeJ9b7rVzTCvQqJ1i/x91dC7OvZmExoJT6EwPSKTIRPB68KbB3j65VayTE0xY3cdaQyvmH1/zSqfLzFKmANIuTN7gH03/Ko1tmLn69KsIF99vOnGd3T6BoAGqw4gzJ6b+c7qEYvYyVjxDjeDw9BrWmLBPl0Hy61A6wY3fW+gDm20exguU+G/ShDvZladxrqTuEMx1+tKYnBnfH5/lQBz3ZmGU0qQL7+PrurT4fGEi2+iL+zxMgAfXH9arpw+Xd7/ypATJxB3/Xvq42/IE6VRaSJ0j691SpIjmKAKe0eyuHekhBQo3zIt6p9k+lYvbXZF9kyhJdR+JAuJ3FAv6TXQ0vVZbe5UAcRcw/igykjURceRi9a/ZHZDD4jDrLL/eP5ZSk+HKRokoOgMRJnWQa3GO2SxiAO9bSTx0I6EGaye0ewmUheGeUlQuAokEdFpuKaYqOehSkqm6VJPQgg6Ecd0VrcDiUYhrxDqOB4jhQXb2y8S2tS8QhUqMlcAg8ypNpPOCao7OxpaWFC43jiPzrHX096tco9P8Apnbv+PqbZ5hLDX1NH2fwraMW0h9aQyVZjmFlRolQ0uopB3QfT3EYsPYrEqSju0AhLaMuWED2fDAifa/qqpt5IW2lxJ9khQI4G3lu9KfsfHOPrWp1a1qygZlkqPh0EngKehPdG3yT/VOzR0O0OMPZatfBlxSQ6V/vENKQlMNSQCVAewCbDKkSeQF6ds51olSHUl1wtlLQbJgLBBkm0jKFcelDdrvNnGtENpSlaYIkmSQU3k7lDdV/aGVJaUk92vOmFJkFF4zT0B3761TOHUjUmkG2tmYgYdHfJAbcnu1CLmD4VXsZixis0x2eWoEpAE3gSMoTfPvBPiB/q3aVrtt7bfS8lOKbUcO2uCptOULOUwtMynMdTE6ms9jH04hSG8EnEiM+YFQJVABkITECE33aRzozJRgEd93WJKB3UZyl0EKUTYBe4gAkdItRxtAUl5KU95m7tSAkgmzgQFDgAHcx5Cud5wJnS1tNJradn38maVBP7lKASbAqcZSn30uo+gzF7Sfdbw7im8iEoLIUL957JKVDo3OljN692McoUkGQFKAI3861u0sCUFpklKu6bxL/AIUhATDfdpASCYu4o66g1i9jqmd0qOlC9o0f/l5/QslyF+ora9hMSSy4J9ld/NKb+grAvrg8a2nYAfu3TwUP9vu1okZI2CHuJ/SnhQ3251WCrW16z7vyr3Nbp9fpUlliOY99Kqsn6j86VAWSJjp9e+nlHxqsly27rrTu/PyHv5WpiF3UCxrzKd8V6MTeLD3+VJTgO8fXvoAruI1+NVv2a1447vKiASDTltA6G9AAQtHUeRioi3AvB8vqaLviOP1yqqtHD6/OgAY5hwRvqs5hzu1FFFC+h8uQqN1PHf5a0ACispsbj3/rU4c5+VWSgb/rzqs5h+HrSoB/7SB/zSTjRP16VWdb514kAX30UBdW8VWiB8aG4jsphXT4mxJ1IJSespiriXb/AAqVLvCkMEI7BNBCkIdXkVPhMGJH3ZE+s1DiezLeEw6cmYkLGZSokhUp3CAJKfStCjEHjbrXmOT3jS0aZkkDlOh8jSUUnZpPWnKKi3hKl8PA5Z2mwyghLif+ms36kEH1Jo0UJfw4WkJKgAtImZESpEf0/wCk1bRhA8lTah/EBBHBQkEdZzAcyKz+wsUrCrLLhgTKVTAk8TuBseXrVUKWUpeXp+Dcq200jDhh0+3kUwqM0oJBSTqMyCMt+CTvrH7c2W4w+suLhZlcggZs0GITEaqBi3DS+nQ004lLblkAqkRpmIKgBuEjNbyjSrG2tk4JTY7soQ4m6SkXIiClRAJggxJ01p2Z0Yb/AAFa0odI8C1pBg6AoKpPCUpEbvEK1GFwDDrDyHUPLLnsd0hZVmQJ1AKUgKMDNY34VRZHdtBvOSlEkqO4TO7cJgDyrR7M7VpQykNtEkpkZilIJJ4id/wpWFAXZzq2WHv2p9YxBQ02lJ9oJblSmzrKYUZJuY1oXgFZUjj+lN2rtB7EOrcdsVZUhIgJAAkkbyIMSb+Oo+8pxzJsvUxCK8/56E6jJrof2fMkYUn8S1e4BPxBrmrS66/sLC91h2kGxCRN95ufeaJGaCCUaVC8nkY5VOFV5N6RRWvwNKrXi+gK8pAUPu3Plw4U1o35daUHQ68LfH3eVOMb7fQibVQjxSNYMT9b6Qkax10+VJSLTr8KkyWk6fXpQA1Cp5edPSYncec142TJG7dz86mKBF9w+ooAjifkfrpUSmufuNPCvPfe2leoVOt+k+lAFRTPXfvvUTrIG+PO/SrqkEXnqNIvTVaiR9eZoAHlMaj64e+mKR7vq1WlTMQPKmlEfOgCktq/1+dROMX5cOt6IFrl6V5kncPrhOtAAxbXUaTH/NetyPXf8PjREs8elRljTj5fGgCFCZnj9b6mCL8elNycP+d1WUOAa60gMxtnCFl0L0Q8bEfdcG6d2YCRzFAu1GzFPoK0AZ03Uncb68rk33EkGygRuseyl5tTa5yq4ajmDxBFqx6XVsu924qHE+wvc4NJ4TuIOuh5sqLrD4Mds3ba2jkXJSLQbKRG6dQBpB0rc7BYbxI/iQrXJInqDvFuH50L29s9p65T3at6kiU+YHiSP7gIsQLVmjspaDCHUKAvZxIjnBVak2upXdSfsZ/nga/tZge5xLKAo92424mCbZilSZJ5laBfSd1EdlnBN4ZBcyqcyjMjMfaQLlSZ8KeZ/SsUoLP8TEEnLkISouKKSQctiQBIG8aCplNQLiAb5ZlSjqFOK9+UWHM0rvCKWntzqenX8eZM6+FqU5AAM5QBAAmZjdJ3cABuqsVzUS3CbD3VPs9jOoJAKidANSeFWlSoxnJzlbD3ZDZRefQCPC341+Wg8zx3TXWErmw1/WgnZ3ZicO3lgBRgq/LoL0YmdT+lSCQ5R42p0fQ6V4BH60u8EmgY6f8AMKVeefu/WlTGDQka2k7t/WpLGfXfPv1FeAQb2sOHHrxqQJ1j6+vyoJPEiBYzxg8RPlpTlSTw6nppBpuQxCcon60JBrzfuI1nQ0ASqQAep68acVZRMyPy+vdVZ28EeQkj3/nU6jKZOh4g/CONAHjjsjXnr8t3upASmFRpx6a+6mJTrGsaepvPG9ovwrxsAm+oidB6DhegByEECY8tdOVelrcdenLdanrQZHCfPy4U5IHP84oAjaZzGBafL3RNN7pBSF5xlULTbUE7+V+lTMu3B9OdRpwTITlyEARYKO5Kk6zcwtV53zSAanBAgEEKBEgg6/QphwyRIKrgpBiTdUQLb9OmulTowDQUVEZiYIn7v7sIid9p/uNS5EDcRClK13qGWeNknKOUUADzhgSoJUCUmFcjwnfr7qjcaEwCJTGa+gOk7qtrwjX4CLJHhJHsGUkwdZJvUCcEwBlCVQIgSrcgoA/sJH63oyBGjCKMC2tMXs4JIzKgqVA65Sq/CyTrUz2Ew+vdweN7excdO7SPI8TTE4ZjTKTGl1bkqA62Wr1nhRkBisGknJmuQo6fhyyZ/rFBds9n0vDIVyrVNlW3SFREbuFHVttb0EAyNSBcpNr8UJ9Ke6w2oRktATG4hKsw03TRkDnKtnYpnwqyrRuk/A6in9yg5Q4kBSzCQYVeCeFhCTW7Xg2FTLX3s8bpkqn1kwaDP9msOIKEqEaeNW5GSw/ltSuQUZdzDQNyATAIvrpoOdUXNk5wS2vNob2nMJFzyrSL2QEpjISgQRc6gzNxr9GvcBhMNOVxpWX+ZX4SnTf4bUWwAGB7NLUQkkSTEC9+groHZrsonD+OQtZGv4RwANxzNqfgMOyhJAOZKtQlIA1Ub6yPGfCbCrjTDImxUSZ3gj2YEzJ9hNz8zRbAvIw4JiQVAAxO4yAbcYPpUiGDxG/eDUDCWgTlBGYQYJ0zKV8VK9aejDtgg5TbLFz92cvmCdfjRkZL+zq4jrI5cKbm5WqPDYZlogoRlItInckJ87JHnJ31OhX6/wDFMRBlH4feaVWfrSlQMpO/w/7f/wCaqhRv6n/bXtKmIkHs+ZqPE6+SflSpUAQ4v+GPP4KqzhPbPT5mlSoAme18vmarYff/AC/KlSoAtP6HoPnUJ9rz+VKlQBbHtHqP9tMxm7+qlSoAejd0HwqQaeSviKVKgCB3TyqFWv8AbSpUAQYrf0NVMD93z+FKlQBbXoPP/wANSs7/AK/FXtKgCkr2k/X3RVc6ny+NKlQBC9r6VFivZPn8qVKgCXBaUVRSpUgJ3N3lXrPsq+t9KlTA8TorzqR35CvKVAHtKlSoA//Z
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




A very nice modded example. Sexier than a Swedish nurse with nice apples.


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## Cirdan

Transk53 said:


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> A very nice modded example. Sexier than a Swedish nurse with nice apples.



Yeah that is one sexy bike but all the same I`d take the Swedish nurse and her apples


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## TrueJim

Respectfully gentlemen, I'm going to have to disagree. Kicking a rider off a moving bike is *not* a _modern_ invention. The technique is actually thousands of years old, as evidenced by any number of ancient royal tomb murals and carvings. As just one example, there's the _Jajeongeo-Yuksa Sokkuram _(below), dating back to 8th Century Silla.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Cirdan & Gnarlie - just making sure, you do realize that Jaeimseu is making a joke, right?


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Getting back to the original question. Of course the story is a myth, and a rather ridiculous one. Nevertheless, I've seen it put forth many times in books, magazines, and by martial arts instructors who really should know better if they just thought about it for a minute. That being the case, I'm just glad PhotonGuy at least had the sense to be somewhat suspicious of the claim rather than insisting on it being fact.


----------



## TrueJim

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm just glad PhotonGuy at least had the sense to be somewhat suspicious of the claim rather than insisting on it being fact.



*This.* 

Plus also, it resulted in an interesting discussion that actually lead to some informative postings. Picking apart taekwondo myths turns out to be educational (before it devolves into pure silliness ;-) ) . Who knew?


----------



## Jaeimseu

Tony Dismukes said:


> Cirdan & Gnarlie - just making sure, you do realize that Jaeimseu is making a joke, right?



Tony, flying sidekick is no joke. [emoji6]


----------



## TrueJim

Dirty Dog said:


> Our 1st Dan test would be similar to the KKW 2nd Dan, in that we require 6 Kicho forms, 8 Palgwae and Koryo to test for Chodanbo. Those seeking KKW certification also learn the 8 Taegeuk forms.



So if I'm reading this right, to get a black belt from your school, the student has to learn 15 forms (6 Kicho + 8 Palgwae + Koryo) but if they also want a Kukkiwon certification with their 1st Dan black belt they have to learn a _total_ of *23 forms* for *1st Dan*? That truly is hard core!


----------



## Dirty Dog

Tony Dismukes said:


> Cirdan & Gnarlie - just making sure, you do realize that Jaeimseu is making a joke, right?



Given that one of the book titles he posted as a source was "I don't believe the story", that should have been obvious.


----------



## Gnarlie

Tony Dismukes said:


> Cirdan & Gnarlie - just making sure, you do realize that Jaeimseu is making a joke, right?


Yes, I had taken his original post on the topic to be wicked lampoonery of Alex Gillis' 'A Killing Art', which is why I asked if he could recommend a book [emoji6]

Gillis' novel is full of equally questionable tall tales.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Gnarlie said:


> Yes, I had taken his original post on the topic to be wicked lampoonery of Alex Gillis' 'A Killing Art', which is why I asked if he could recommend a book [emoji6]
> 
> Gillis' novel is full of equally questionable tall tales.



Hey, Gillis didn't say it was definitely _true_ that the old Korean masters could penetrate someone's abdomen with a spear hand and rip out their intestines. He may have thought it plausible enough to ask one of his sources (who didn't deny it) about the story, but he at least left some wiggle room regarding the  veracity of that one.


----------



## Cirdan

Tony Dismukes said:


> Cirdan & Gnarlie - just making sure, you do realize that Jaeimseu is making a joke, right?



Of course he is not serious but there is a file line between joking and spreading BS sometimes. I`ve met far better martial artists than me who actually believe in these myths and unfortunately pass them on to their students as well. They turn up here too and act all offended when we don`t buy their fairytales _"but master said so, don`t call him a liar!!!!!!!!"_


----------



## Dirty Dog

Cirdan said:


> Of course he is not serious but there is a file line between joking and spreading BS sometimes. I`ve met far better martial artists than me who actually believe in these myths and unfortunately pass them on to their students as well. They turn up here too and act all offended when we don`t buy their fairytales _"but master said so, don`t call him a liar!!!!!!!!"_



That sounds remarkably like the circumstances that resulted in this silly thread being started. A gullible person being told a ridiculous story and not having the good sense to realize just how ridiculous the story was.


----------



## IcemanSK

When I began training in 1982, most aerial kicks done today (540's, 720's, etc.) weren't invented yet. Jump side kick, jump front kick, jump spinning hook & crescent kicks and a few others were about it, then. 

Why are these aerial kicks done? They're fun to do.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Jaeimseu said:


> Shooting was considered too noisy.


Ever heard of silencers?


----------



## RTKDCMB

Cirdan said:


> Of course he is not serious but there is a file line between joking and spreading BS


That line is usually composed of smiley faces.


----------



## Dirty Dog

RTKDCMB said:


> Ever heard of silencers?



I own one. Like so many things, they don't work quite the way movies would make it seem. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan

Dirty Dog said:


> . A gullible person being told a ridiculous story and not having the good sense to realize just how ridiculous the story was.


My favourite is a black belt needs to visit the police station to register his body as a lethal weapon.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> My favourite is a black belt needs to visit the police station to register his body as a lethal weapon.


I got told by a cop once that having a black belt I was automatically considered a deadly weapon.


----------



## Mephisto

Didn't read this whole thread but photon guy has got to take a little initiative and look up all this hearsay on his own. You do realize that ancient guys on horses were the equivalent of tanks, and they were armed. You're not gonna kick guys with spears, lances, and swords off a horse. You might as well impale yourself. These aren't defenseless babies riding around on horses.


----------



## jks9199

RTKDCMB said:


> I got told by a cop once that having a black belt I was automatically considered a deadly weapon.


In some cases... Maybe.

It's a bit off topic here, but very basically, if you were to be involved in some sort of fight or self defense situation, being a trained fighter or martial artist could be used to suggest that either you should have been able to use less force -- or that the force you used was more significant because you "know how to hit somebody."  There are other threads that have gone into this in more detail...

And that doesn't mean that you have to register your hands!


----------



## tshadowchaser

heck all the high aerial  kicks are because they look pretty and yes they take some degree of coordination to do.  kicking someone off a horse might be accomplished if you where jumping down at them from an advantage point of being on a rise or overhang. 
now for unseeing the spear hand for penetrating the stomach  that tale was always around in the 70's and 80's  but no one ever knew anyone who knew anyone who had really seen it.  
now how many have see someone knocked out with a 2 fingered flick   of the hand to the head


----------



## Buka

I was always under the impression that I would use my previously registered hands to pierce the belly of the horse, disembowel him and pull the rider down from the inside.
Obvious, no?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Jaeimseu said:


> Tony, flying sidekick is no joke. [emoji6]


Agree!

If you use "flying sidekick" to jump up in the air and coming down 45 degree at your opponent's front leg knee joint with all your body weight behind, it can be a very powerful "entering strategy". A good friend of mine always likes to use it as his initial attack and close the gap. He could put his opponent in defense mode right at that moment.


----------



## RTKDCMB

jks9199 said:


> And that doesn't mean that you have to register your hands!


I am glad I don't have to register my hands as deadly weapons, checking them in at the airport could present a problem.


----------



## oftheherd1

Dirty Dog said:


> There's at least one system of TKD that uses a camouflage belt. Systems are free to use whatever colors they like, of course. Doing so does immediately show that they're not following the traditions of the art but are instead establishing their own traditions. Training in a non-traditional art does make one less credible when discussing traditions and their origins. I wouldn't expect someone who practices Kendo to be familiar with the traditions of Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu.



I have no idea if there was a tradition of attempting to kick horsemen off their horses in combat.  Personally, I would not want to take on a good swordsman who saw me coming.  If I had a chance at a distracted rider and considered it important, maybe.  But I would probably just as soon try to cripple the horse.  FWIW, I have never heard of mongolian ponys being trained by the Mongols to fight as Lipizzaners, but that doesn't mean it isn't so.

As to Jhoon Goo Rhee, he taught what I believe was a very traditional TKD in the mid-60s, and he had 4 levels of brown belt just before black belt.  Was that traditional TKD?  I don't know, but it was what he used.  Of course, I can't prove that his TKD was traditional, but it seemed so to me.  There was no flashiness, no questionable moves, just good solid methods to strike opponents, and careful attention to forms.


----------



## oftheherd1

Jaeimseu said:


> It's amazing to me how much information is out there. Taekwondo is a relatively young art. By the time taekwondo was created horses weren't often found on the field of battle. The side kick, therefore, was never intended to kick people off of horses.
> 
> It is common knowledge (in Korea) that the flying sidekick was developed exclusively as a means of kicking enemy soldiers off of motorcycles. Korean soldiers would hide in ditches next to roads used by enemy riders and execute the flying sidekick.
> 
> This was a very common occurrence during the war in Vietnam. Vietcong letters were found warning VC soldiers not engage in motorcycle travel if Koreans were in the area because of the ROK army's deadly taekwondo.
> 
> In fact, the flying sidekick is still used by police and civilians alike in combat against the infamous "motorcycle mafia," the toughest motorcycle gang on the planet.
> 
> I can't believe you guys don't already know this stuff. Go to your library and read a book.



I thought I had heard if all.  Obviously not.


----------



## TrueJim

oftheherd1 said:


> Was that traditional TKD?  I don't know, but it was what he used.  Of course, I can't prove that his TKD was traditional, but it seemed so to me.  There was no flashiness, no questionable moves, just good solid methods to strike opponents, and careful attention to forms.



I'm not sure if there's a universally accepted definition of *traditional* taekwondo. There's one definition: "taekwondo as practiced in the 1940s-1960s by the post-war kwans" but that definition is problematic since none of the schools was calling their art taekwondo at the time. I've also seen people add, "...especially as practiced by the South Korean military" and certainly by that definition Jhoon Rhee ought to qualify as traditional taekwondo. I've also heard ITF/Chang Hon practitioners refer to the _non-sine-wave_ version as "traditional" taekwondo. That definition at least has the advantage that taekwondo was being called _taekwondo_ by that point!


----------



## Balrog

PhotonGuy said:


> A friend of mine who trained in Tae Kwon Do said that the reason for all the high kicks and jumping techniques in Tae Kwon Do was to knock people off horses. In ancient Korea they would often go up against enemies on horseback and the high kicks and jumping techniques were used to knock them off. Im not sure of the validity of that but that's what my friend who had a brown belt in Tae Kwon Do claimed.
> 
> He also said that the Koreans used their hands for lots of fine artwork and craftsmanship and as such did not want to damage their hands with training so that is why kicks were emphasized in Tae Kwon Do over hand techniques.


Ah, the old kick 'em off the horse story.  Right up there with the ninjas who can walk through solid walls and the samurai who could chop off three heads with one swing of the sword.

The simple answer is that we do the jump kicks and stuff like that because we can.  They are nothing more than just another training method to gain discipline in the mind and body.  I personally would never use one in a self-defense situation, but being able to do a jump side kick, for example, gives me better control of my standing side kick, which I would use in self-defense.


----------



## TrueJim

Balrog said:


> I personally would never use one in a self-defense situation...



That having been said...a nice high kick can sometimes be pretty effective in self-defense...


----------



## danielle

That's very interesting. It makes sense. I've always been told the flashy moves (540 round and hook kicks) were used for show.


----------



## Dirty Dog

danielle said:


> That's very interesting. It makes sense. I've always been told the flashy moves (540 round and hook kicks) were used for show.



Mostly. Beware of absolutes. It's certainly possible to use even the flashiest of kicks for self defense in the right situation. It won't be common, but it is possible.


----------



## danielle

Dirty Dog said:


> Mostly. Beware of absolutes. It's certainly possible to use even the flashiest of kicks for self defense in the right situation. It won't be common, but it is possible.



      True.I'd imagine a younger person opting for it. They certainly are pretty moves though. Those spins inspire many people to join Taekwondo


----------



## Jaeimseu

Balrog said:


> The simple answer is that we do the jump kicks and stuff like that because we can.  They are nothing more than just another training method to gain discipline in the mind and body.  I personally would never use one in a self-defense situation, but being able to do a jump side kick, for example, gives me better control of my standing side kick, which I would use in self-defense.



This is pretty spot on, I'd say. I think that's the Taekwondo mentality: to continually push things to the next level. I can remember learning the 540 spinning hook kick and feeling pretty good, but there are guys now doing 720 or better jump turning round kicks. It's amazing what people can do when they continually challenge themselves. And that's what it's about. It has nothing to do with self-defense. That's true of many things on TKD.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Jaeimseu said:


> ...........I can remember learning the 540 spinning hook kick and feeling pretty good, but there are guys now doing 720 or better jump turning round kicks. .



Off topic but you hit a nerve with this one. Terminology varies but some of the names are misleading.    Naming a kick with degree of rotation indicates how many times you rotate in the air. At least with other trick activities like Skating, gymnastics, skiing, snowboarding, skateboarding, that's what it is.   If you watch many of the 540/720 kicks you will see 180 or more is a rotation with one foot still in contact with the floor.   I could then say I do a 1080 by spinning around 3 times with one foot on the floor doing a little jump and then kicking.   I guess it's no worse than rank / title inflation.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Earl Weiss said:


> Off topic but you hit a nerve with this one. Terminology varies but some of the names are misleading.    Naming a kick with degree of rotation indicates how many times you rotate in the air. At least with other trick activities like Skating, gymnastics, skiing, snowboarding, skateboarding, that's what it is.   If you watch many of the 540/720 kicks you will see 180 or more is a rotation with one foot still in contact with the floor.   I could then say I do a 1080 by spinning around 3 times with one foot on the floor doing a little jump and then kicking.   I guess it's no worse than rank / title inflation.


You are correct, of course, that probably the majority of people are not actually airborne during the entirety of their rotation. However, it seems to be the case that these kicking techniques are named for the total amount of rotation from the beginning of the kick until contact is/would be made. I've heard people using the term "540" for a "tornado kick" that lands on the kicking foot for twenty years. I don't know if the name was intended to deceive back then or not, but that's the name that stuck. 

I was simply using terms that I felt would be recognized by the majority of readers. I had zero intent to embellish the amount of rotation. 
And yes, you could say that you were doing a 1080 after spinning on the ground, but I doubt anyone would take you seriously if you did so.


----------



## drop bear

People are pulling off these kicks which work if you nail the guy. But also work if you can get him back pedaling.

And it takes some real stones to close and counter a guy who is throwing those sort of kicks.


----------



## Drose427

drop bear said:


> People are pulling off these kicks which work if you nail the guy. But also work if you can get him back pedaling.
> 
> And it takes some real stones to close and counter a guy who is throwing those sort of kicks.



Especially if they arent used to seeing them and have no clue how to counter it. This happens in the cage fairly often


----------



## drop bear

Drose427 said:


> Especially if they arent used to seeing them and have no clue how to counter it. This happens in the cage fairly often








In theory it should make you open to takedowns. But it just doesn't.


----------



## TrueJim

The "kick opponents off horses" thing rears its ugly head again...  

When is it time to move on taekwondo


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> In theory it should make you open to takedowns. But it just doesn't.




All stuff we do in karate


----------



## Laplace_demon

All the high kicking is mostly WTF practioners.  *ITF* schools don't neccesarily put _that_ much emphasis on high kicking, or for that matter aerial kicks in general. I have trained ITF since august 2014, and haven't been taught any aerial kicks, outside of flying side kick (which is a nice kick) and the jumping back kick. Lots of handstrikes, heavy emphasis on patterns, conditioning.


----------



## The_Awesome_User

danielle said:


> True.I'd imagine a younger person opting for it. They certainly are pretty moves though. Those spins inspire many people to join Taekwondo


Here is an example of a "just for show" kick


----------



## Gnarlie

The_Awesome_User said:


> Here is an example of a "just for show" kick



To be fair, pretty much any kick would work when the opponent is actually coming forward to touch gloves and doesn't realise the fight has started in earnest.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## The_Awesome_User

Gnarlie said:


> To be fair, pretty much any kick would work when the opponent is actually coming forward to touch gloves and doesn't realise the fight has started in earnest.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Uh he went to touch gives after the bell rang?
They allready touched gloves
If you look at the close up slow mo you can see his hands were guarding.


----------



## Drose427

The_Awesome_User said:


> Uh he went to touch gives after the bell rang?
> They allready touched gloves
> If you look at the close up slow mo you can see his hands were guarding.



He very clearly extends his left hand to toich gloves


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> All the high kicking is mostly WTF practioners.  *ITF* schools don't neccesarily put _that_ much emphasis on high kicking, or for that matter aerial kicks in general. I have trained ITF since august 2014, and haven't been taught any aerial kicks, outside of flying side kick (which is a nice kick) and the jumping back kick. Lots of handstrikes, heavy emphasis on patterns, conditioning.



Not true in the least. You're extrapolating from your own extremely limited and short term training and assuming that it's true elsewhere. Or even that what you've been taught, as a very new student, applies to what more advanced students have been taught. A generally foolish notion. Students at your level are not taught complicated kicks in our school, either. 

I learned far more about fancy aerial kicks in the ITF schools I trained at than the KKW schools. But I'm quite willing to believe that this is because my ITF training was when I was young, and thought triple back flips with a double twist kicks were cool, while my KKW and MDK training has been as an adult who is more interested in practicality than flash.

And your use of "WTF practitioners" is still incorrect, as has been amply proven. You mean KKW, so it would be smarter to simply SAY KKW in the first place.


----------



## Dirty Dog

The_Awesome_User said:


> Uh he went to touch gives after the bell rang?
> They allready touched gloves
> If you look at the close up slow mo you can see his hands were guarding.





Drose427 said:


> He very clearly extends his left hand to toich gloves



It does look like he was extending his hand to touch gloves. But it's also true that they'd already touched and the bell had rung to start the round.
Extended to touch or whatever, he clearly wasn't guarding.
And that's a phenomenally stupid thing to do after the bell rings.
We had a few students a while back who started touching gloves after the start. I put a stop to it. While sparring with one of them, I extended my hands part way like I wanted to touch, and when they mirrored me, I put my foot against their temple. Not with power, but the point was made.
Start means start.


----------



## The_Awesome_User

Dirty Dog said:


> It does look like he was extending his hand to touch gloves. But it's also true that they'd already touched and the bell had rung to start the round.
> Extended to touch or whatever, he clearly wasn't guarding.
> And that's a phenomenally stupid thing to do after the bell rings.
> We had a few students a while back who started touching gloves after the start. I put a stop to it. While sparring with one of them, I extended my hands part way like I wanted to touch, and when they mirrored me, I put my foot against their temple. Not with power, but the point was made.
> Start means start.


Hmm it looks to me like he put his guard up around his body and didn't realize it would be a high kick until too late or not at all


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> Not true in the least. You're extrapolating from your own extremely limited and short term training and assuming that it's true elsewhere. Or even that what you've been taught, as a very new student, applies to what more advanced students have been taught. A generally foolish notion. Students at your level are not taught complicated kicks in our school, either.
> 
> I learned far more about fancy aerial kicks in the ITF schools I trained at than the KKW schools. But I'm quite willing to believe that this is because my ITF training was when I was young, and thought triple back flips with a double twist kicks were cool, while my KKW and MDK training has been as an adult who is more interested in practicality than flash.
> 
> And your use of "WTF practitioners" is still incorrect, as has been amply proven. You mean KKW, so it would be smarter to simply SAY KKW in the first place.



I will bet you I will never come close to the number of aerials performed by KKW. And my dobok is labelled ITF, that's right, ITF. So keep on living in your dream world of "there are no ITF schools". My grading certificate has the international Taekwon-do logo, and is written: "certified in accordance with the rules and regulations of the *International TaeKwon-Do federation*".


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> Not true in the least. You're extrapolating from your own extremely limited and short term training and assuming that it's true elsewhere. Or even that what you've been taught, as a very new student, applies to what more advanced students have been taught. A generally foolish notion. Students at your level are not taught complicated kicks in our school, either.



Well, if an 8th dan instructor isn't legitimate, I don't know who is. And we train with the black belts all the time. It's a small club. Whatever applies to them, also applies to us.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Not true in the least. You're extrapolating from your own extremely limited and short term training and assuming that it's true elsewhere. Or even that what you've been taught, as a very new student, applies to what more advanced students have been taught. A generally foolish notion. Students at your level are not taught complicated kicks in our school, either.



Laplace_demon said:


> Well, if an 8th dan instructor isn't legitimate, I don't know who is. And we train with the black belts all the time. It's a small club. Whatever applies to them, also applies to us.



I agree with Dirty Dog and say you are mistaken.  FWIW My cert from 2002 is #A-7-10


----------



## Laplace_demon

Earl Weiss said:


> I agree with Dirty Dog and say you are mistaken.  FWIW My cert from 2002 is #A-7-10



Oh, really? How many of these aerial kicks do you master, then?

- tornado reverse side;
-- flying reverse side;
-- assisted jumping roundhouse;
-- 360- 540- 720 crescent and roundhouses, etc
-- double jumping front kick
-- flying scissors kick
-- triple (or quad) flying front kick(s)
-- flip-back double-jumping front kick


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> I will bet you I will never come close to the number of aerials performed by KKW. And my dobok is labelled ITF, that's right, ITF. So keep on living in your dream world of "there are no ITF schools". My grading certificate has the international Taekwon-do logo, and is written: "certified in accordance with the rules and regulations of the *International TaeKwon-Do federation*".



You might want to go re-read what I wrote. Pay close attention. Ask for help if you need it. 
Then you might realize why your reply looks so silly. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> Oh, really? How many of these aerial kicks do you master, then?
> 
> - tornado reverse side;
> -- flying reverse side;
> -- assisted jumping roundhouse;
> -- 360- 540- 720 crescent and roundhouses, etc
> -- double jumping front kick
> -- flying scissors kick
> -- triple (or quad) flying front kick(s)
> -- flip-back double-jumping front kick



The man you're addressing, as has been mentioned to you before, is an ITF 8th Dan. If that's the way students in your school are taught to speak to someone who is (vastly) their senior, then I am saddened. 
What's your instructors name again? I think it's a safe bet Master Weiss knows them.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> The man you're addressing, as has been mentioned to you before, is an ITF 8th Dan. If that's the way students in your school are taught to speak to someone who is (vastly) their senior, then I am saddened.
> What's your instructors name again? I think it's a safe bet Master Weiss knows them.



Why dance around the question? Master Weiss challenged my statement that the kicking arsenal differs . This would help clarify the issue once and for all. I already know the answer, and this is most likely why I was left with no response.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> Why dance around the question? Master Weiss challenged my statement that the kicking arsenal differs . This would help clarify the issue once and for all. I already know the answer, and this is most likely why I was left with no response.



Speaking of dancing around the question... you didn't answer mine.
What is your instructors name?
And an additional question. Do you think your instructor would approve of the tone you take towards your seniors?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> Speaking of dancing around the question... you didn't answer mine.
> What is your instructors name?
> And an additional question. Do you think your instructor would approve of the tone you take towards your seniors?



You already know his name, since I mentioned it earlier:* Yeo Chin-Huat*. He's my instructor in taekwon-do, that's it.

You have repeatedly questioned my training, when I have reported (accurately) that throws are  a non existent part of our training, and that the aerial kicks are nowhere near what WTF practitioners train on a  daily basis. This is well known fact, in comparing different taekwondo systems. I don't know why anyone would seriously dispute it. Sure, we have more aerials than Shotokan, but that isn't really saying much, is it?


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> Why dance around the question? Master Weiss challenged my statement that the kicking arsenal differs . This would help clarify the issue once and for all. I already know the answer, and this is most likely why I was left with no response.



You _think _ you know the answer, with only a year of training.

2 highly ranked and well versed practitioners have told you otherwise. Other than your own ego or arrogance, you have zero reason to think you know better than either of them or to regard them with such disrespect.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Drose427 said:


> You _think _ you know the answer, with only a year of training.
> 
> 2 highly ranked and well versed practitioners have told you otherwise. Other than your own ego or arrogance, you have zero reason to think you know better than either of them or to regard them with such disrespect.



You don't think I am well informed through various internet sources, discussion forums, and the fact that the black belts in this club are simply not aerial kickers. I have trained WTF, including their sparring, and the black belts in ITF are not capable of doing advanced aerials, since I've seen them perform rather basic ones. Some can't even perform flying side kick. This is highly indicative that aerial kicking is not as emphasised.  The WTF guys were *far* more fluent in this regard.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> You already know his name, since I mentioned it earlier:* Yeo Chin-Huat*. He's my instructor in taekwon-do, that's it.



I don't recall you ever actually answering the question before. If you did, and I overlooked it, I apologize.
Now, how about part two of the question? What do you think Master Yeo would think about the tone you take with seniors?



Laplace_demon said:


> You have repeatedly questioned my training,



Well, no, your training is still at the baby-steps stage, so what I've questioned is how you think you know so much. Especially since so much of what you've stated is actually incorrect.



Laplace_demon said:


> when I have reported (accurately) that throws are  a non existent part of our training,



No, you have claimed - incorrectly - that your extremely short training is representative of all ITF schools. If you're saying there are no throws taught at your school, that's fine. But it absolutely is NOT true of the ITF in general.



Laplace_demon said:


> and that the aerial kicks are nowhere near what WTF practitioners train on a  daily basis.



Again, you are making claims about the ITF and KKW in general (there are no WTF practitioners, as you know, since it says so right on the WTF site) based on your tiny little bit of training. You are wrong. And while my own ITF rank is a mere Samdan, you've also been told by a man who is an ITF 8th Dan that you are incorrect.
The school you attend is, clearly, not representative of the ITF in general.



Laplace_demon said:


> This is well known fact, in comparing different taekwondo systems.



You must be using a non-standard definition of the word "fact"...



Laplace_demon said:


> I don't know why anyone would seriously dispute it.



Ummmm, maybe because you're wrong, and people with more training and experience in both the ITF and other taekwondo systems know that you're wrong?
Just an idea...


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> You don't think I am well informed through various internet sources, discussion forums, and the fact that the black belts in this club are simply not aerial kickers. I have trained WTF, including their sparring, and the black belts in ITF are not capable of doing advanced aerials, since I've seen them perform rather basic ones. Some can't even perform flying side kick. This is highly indicative that aerial kicking is not as emphasised.  The WTF guys were *far* more fluent in this regard.



You need to learn what qualifies as a relevant sample...


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't recall you ever actually answering the question before. If you did, and I overlooked it, I apologize.
> Now, how about part two of the question? What do you think Master Yeo would think about the tone you take with seniors?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, no, your training is still at the baby-steps stage, so what I've questioned is how you think you know so much. Especially since so much of what you've stated is actually incorrect.
> 
> 
> 
> No, you have claimed - incorrectly - that your extremely short training is representative of all ITF schools. If you're saying there are no throws taught at your school, that's fine. But it absolutely is NOT true of the ITF in general.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you are making claims about the ITF and KKW in general (there are no WTF practitioners, as you know, since it says so right on the WTF site) based on your tiny little bit of training. You are wrong. And while my own ITF rank is a mere Samdan, you've also been told by a man who is an ITF 8th Dan that you are incorrect.
> The school you attend is, clearly, not representative of the ITF in general.
> 
> 
> 
> You must be using a non-standard definition of the word "fact"...
> 
> 
> 
> Ummmm, maybe because you're wrong, and people with more training and experience in both the ITF and other taekwondo systems know that you're wrong?
> Just an idea...



Once again, my grading certificate is *ITF* and my dobok has the writing *ITF*. Please adress how such a school could be "ITF neutral." and that there are no ITF or WTF schools. Did you know that swedish national competitiors in ITF are not allowed to compete in the upcoming olympics (unless they work it out by then)? I don't know the exact politics of it, but that sounds very strange if there is no way to be ITF affiliated.


I am sure other schools put more emphasis on high kicking/aerials, but I stand by this point to my grave, KKW/WTF it is  NOT comparable. That is: I am quite certain the reverse is almost never true: less aerial kicking in a random KKW/WTF training school, than ITF school.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> You need to learn what qualifies as a relevant sample...



Is a relevant sample, every single posting regarding the difference, that ITFers are slower kickers and that WTFers knows and are more proficient at aerial kicking? How come I've NEVER read the opposite?


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan

My initial thought was that the ITF guys don't do much aerials....then I thought about youtube videos, and recalled that Aaron Gassor has great aerials and he is primarily ITF, although he has KKW 1st dan (as far as I recall).  

So I am left to conclude that the biggest difference between ITF and WTF is that the ITF guys practice much more extensively turning kicks with the ball of the foot, and twist kicks.  I personally haven't seen these yet at WTF/KKW schools, although I am sure others will chime in and say their school practises these.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> My initial thought was that the ITF guys don't do much aerials....then I thought about youtube videos, and recalled that Aaron Gassor has great aerials and he is primarily ITF, *although he has KKW 1st dan* (as far as I recall).
> .



Which makes him instantly disqualified from the discussion.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> Once again, my grading certificate is *ITF* and my dobok has the writing *ITF*. Please adress how such a school could be "ITF neutral." and that there are no ITF or WTF schools.



You must be a joy to teach, given how unwilling you are to learn from your mistakes.
Nobody ever said there were no ITF schools. That you think I did is merely an example of your poor reading comprehension. As I suggested earlier, go back and re-read what I wrote. Ask for help if you don't understand it.
As for the WTF... all you have to do is read their own web site. I provided you with a link earlier.
But you would have to understand what they wrote. That much is true...



Laplace_demon said:


> Did you know that swedish national competitiors in ITF are not allowed to compete in the upcoming olympics (unless they work it out by then)?



ITF practitioners can compete in WTF competitions by virtue of an agreement reached last year or the year before. Prior that that agreement, it was necessary for ITF practitioners to obtain KKW Dan rank (which was granted on request).



Laplace_demon said:


> I don't know the exact politics of it, but that sounds very strange if there is no way to be ITF affiliated.



Once again, what you've written here is nothing more than an example of your inability to understand what is written. Please, show me ONE example of where I or any other member here has said you cannot be ITF affiliated.



Laplace_demon said:


> I am sure other schools put more emphasis on high kicking/aerials, but I stand by this point to my grave, KKW/WTF it is  NOT comparable. That is: I am quite certain the reverse is almost never true: less aerial kicking in a random KKW/WTF training school, than ITF school.



And yet, I've told you flat out that our KKW/MDK school has virtually no aerial kicking training. That's a sample size of one, the same as what you're using.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> And yet, I've told you flat out that our KKW/MDK school has virtually no aerial kicking training. That's a sample size of one, the same as what you're using.



Just about any KKW school employing WTF sparring rules geared towards competition will fit my description perfectly. 

Do you seriously cling to the belief that my experience is a pure coincidence (related to sample), despite everything I read about before transitioning? I am flabbergasted.


----------



## jks9199

Gentlemen,
Let's cool it down a bit.  The exchanges are getting rather heated and personal.  Stick to the topic, and let's try to avoid attacking each other.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> Just about any KKW school employing WTF sparring rules geared towards competition will fit my description perfectly.
> 
> Do you seriously cling to the belief that my experience is a pure coincidence (related to sample), despite everything I read about before transitioning? I am flabbergasted.



Actually, I think you would rather cling to your misinformation, regardless of how many times it's shown to be wrong. 
You can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn. 
They say ignorance is bliss.
Enjoy yours.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> Just about any KKW school employing WTF sparring rules geared towards competition will fit my description perfectly.
> 
> Do you seriously cling to the belief that my experience is a pure coincidence (related to sample), despite everything I read about before transitioning? I am flabbergasted.


If you're speaking of aerial kicking techniques, I'd have to disagree with you. A competition focused school will focus on footwork and the most common competition kicks (i.e. Roundhouse kick). The jumping, flipping, and spinning kicks are more common in demonstration focused classes.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Dirty Dog said:


> It does look like he was extending his hand to touch gloves. But it's also true that they'd already touched and the bell had rung to start the round.
> Extended to touch or whatever, he clearly wasn't guarding.
> And that's a phenomenally stupid thing to do after the bell rings.



They usually tell the fighters at the beginning to be prepared to protect themselves at all times.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> If you're speaking of aerial kicking techniques, I'd have to disagree with you. A competition focused school will focus on footwork and the most common competition kicks (i.e. Roundhouse kick). The jumping, flipping, and spinning kicks are more common in demonstration focused classes.



I wrote:  WTF sparring geared towards competiton. Doesn't mean the school as a hole is neccesarily geared towards competition. Dirty Dogs school is private and therefore not representative. My school is not private. My instructor is technical advisor to the swedish national team, and I can honestly say that no adult black belt masters any advanced aerial kicking. Most  amatuers can perform flying sidekick and land properly. I don't concider it "advanced". We can thus
conclude that I have the countrys most prominent ITF master, as written on an independent swedish website, a technical advisor (appointed by General Choi) , yet my school, which he teaches daily, is an exception.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> I wrote:  WTF sparring geared towards competiton. Doesn't mean the school as a hole is neccesarily geared towards competition. Dirty Dogs school is private and therefore not representative. My school is not private. My instructor is technical advisor to the swedish national team, and I can honestly say that no adult black belt masters any advanced aerial kicking. Most  amatuers can perform flying sidekick and land properly. I don't concider it "advanced". We can thus
> conclude that I have the countrys most prominent ITF master, as written on an independent swedish website, a technical advisor (appointed by General Choi) , yet my school, which he teaches daily, is an exception.


I'm not sure what your post has to do with what I wrote, to be honest. 

On the topic of your school, what do you mean it's not private? Do you mean that it's affiliated with ITF and not independent? At any rate, it's highly possible that your school could be an exception. I've never seen any organization dictate how daily classes are run at individual schools. The only way to tell if something is common or standard is to see a large representative sample of schools. Thinking that most schools are the same as your school is folly.


----------



## Gnarlie

There are over 4000 Kukkiwon registered schools just in the US.     Even discounting the schools in the rest of the world, and discounting those that practice unregistered using the KKW curriculum, and discounting any ITF or other so-called 'traditional' TKD activity, the following is true:

In order to form a representative sample for such a population of schools, with a confidence interval of 95% and an error margin of +-5%, which is generally accepted for quantitative research, you would need to use a sample of at least 400 schools.

When we talk about a statistically reliable representative sample, that is what we are saying. 

I seriously doubt any of us have that kind of training experience, so yes, assuming what is true in one's own experience holds true everywhere is indeed folly.

On topic, I have never practiced aerial kicking outside of demonstration oriented classes.

Also, a number of aerial kicks are covered in Choi's encyclopedia, are they not?


----------



## Laplace_demon

i


Gnarlie said:


> There are over 4000 Kukkiwon registered schools just in the US.     Even discounting the schools in the rest of the world, and discounting those that practice unregistered using the KKW curriculum, and discounting any ITF or other so-called 'traditional' TKD activity, the following is true:
> 
> In order to form a representative sample for such a population of schools, with a confidence interval of 95% and an error margin of +-5%, which is generally accepted for quantitative research, you would need to use a sample of at least 400 schools.
> 
> When we talk about a statistically reliable representative sample, that is what we are saying.
> 
> I seriously doubt any of us have that kind of training experience, so yes, assuming what is true in one's own experience holds true everywhere is indeed folly.
> 
> On topic, I have never practiced aerial kicking outside of demonstration oriented classes.
> 
> Also, a number of aerial kicks are covered in Choi's encyclopedia, are they not?



My contention is not concerned with number of schools that does X, Y and Z. My objection is more fundamental than that. ITF is not oriented towards aerials, beyond fairly basic ones. This in large part due to lineage and traditions. It´s simply dishonest to claim otherwise and somehow assert that Tae Kwon Do, no matter which style, is an advanced aerial kicking art.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> i
> 
> 
> My contention is not concerned with number of schools that does X, Y and Z. My objection is more fundamental than that. ITF is not oriented towards aerials, beyond fairly basic ones. This in large part due to lineage and traditions. It´s simply dishonest to claim otherwise and somehow assert that Tae Kwon Do, no matter which style, is an advanced aerial kicking art.


And who is arguing such a point? Or is it a straw man you brought with you? 


Volume 7 of Choi's encyclopedia contains the following, listed as "Fundamental Exercises".  If you're not practicing them, you are missing a large part of the ITF syllabus. Incidentally, this is a similar variety of kicks to those I have practiced as a KKW student for demonstration purposes. So, looks like you might have the wrong impression. 

Flying consecutive kick Twimyo Yinsok Chagi

Reverse Hooking and Turning Kick (both in a single jump) 

Crescent and middle twisting kick (both in a single jump) 

Flying triple side kick (Twimyo Samjung Yop Chagi) 

Triple vertical kick

Flying Reverse Hooking Kick (Twimyo Bandae Dollyo Goro Chagi) 

Flying Crescent Kick (Twimyo Bandal Chagi) 

Flying Reverse Hooking and Turning Kick (Twimyo Bandae Dollyo Goro Chagi wa Dollyo Chagi) in a single jump

Flying Crescent and Side Piercing Kick (Twimyo Bandal Chagi Wa Yopcha Jireugi) in a single jump

Mid Air Kick (Twio Dolmyo Chagi) and a 360 spinning variant

Mid air strike (Twimyo Dolmyo Taerigi) in 180 and 360 degree variants

Flying high kick (Twimyo Nopi Chagi) 

Flying Side Front Kick (Twimyo Yobap Chagi) 

Flying Middle Twisting Kick (Twimyo Kaunde Bituro Chagi) 

Flying Outward Vertical Kick (Twimyo Bakuro Sewo Chagi) 

Flying High Twisting Kick (Twimyo Nopunde Bitro Chagi) 

Various jumping hand strikes and dodges with jumping kicks

Flying Hooking Kick (Twimyo Golcho Chagi) 

Flying Double Foot Side Pushing Kick (Twimyo Doobal Yopcha Milgi) 

Flying Twin Side Piercing Kick (Twimyo Sangbal Yopcha Jireugi) 

Various flying hand techniques

Flying Double Side Kick (Twimyo I Jung Yop Chagi) 

Flying Double Turning Kick (Twimyo I Jung Dollyo Chagi) 

Flying Double Front Snap Kick (Twimyo I Jung Apcha Busigi) 

Various flying hand techniques 

Overhead Kick (Twio Nomo Chagi) 

Flying Twin Foot Middle Twisting Kick (Twimyo Sangbal Kaunde Bituro Chagi) 

Flying Foot Twin High Kick (Twimyo Sangbal Nopi Chagi)

Flying Square Punching Kick (Twio Sagak Jirumyo Chagi) 

Flying Trapezoid Punching Kick (Twio Jekak Jirumyo Chagi) 

Flying U Shape Punching Kick (Twio Digutja Jirumyo Chagi) 

Flying Twin Foot Turning Kick (Twimyo Sangbal Dolkyo Chagi) 

Flying Sprial Kick (Twimyo Nasonik Chagi) 

Flying Triple Front Kick (Twimyo Samjung Ap Chagi) 

Flying Triple Turning Kick (Twimyo Samjung Dollyo Chagi) 

Flying Three Direction Kick (Twimyo Sambang Chagi) 

Flying Four Direction Kick (Twimyo Sabang Chagi) 

Variants combined with punches


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> I wrote:  WTF sparring geared towards competiton. Doesn't mean the school as a hole is neccesarily geared towards competition. Dirty Dogs school is private and therefore not representative. My school is not private. My instructor is technical advisor to the swedish national team, and I can honestly say that no adult black belt masters any advanced aerial kicking. Most  amatuers can perform flying sidekick and land properly. I don't concider it "advanced". We can thus
> conclude that I have the countrys most prominent ITF master, as written on an independent swedish website, a technical advisor (appointed by General Choi) , yet my school, which he teaches daily, is an exception.



My school is what? From what bodily orifice did you extract this latest bit of tripe?
We are, as I have said many times, a YMCA-based program, with open doors, free "come check it out" classes, and scholarships for those who cannot afford the $40 per month fee. 
Yeah. That's pretty private. Very exclusive. 

What we can thus conclude is that you are, once again, completely and totally wrong. But don't let that stop you from blathering on. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> And who is arguing such a point? Or is it a straw man you brought with you?
> 
> 
> Volume 7 of Choi's encyclopedia contains the following, listed as "Fundamental Exercises".  If you're not practicing them, you are missing a large part of the ITF syllabus. Incidentally, this is a similar variety of kicks to those I have practiced as a KKW student for demonstration purposes. So, looks like you might have the wrong impression.
> 
> Flying consecutive kick Twimyo Yinsok Chagi
> 
> Reverse Hooking and Turning Kick (both in a single jump)
> 
> Crescent and middle twisting kick (both in a single jump)
> 
> Flying triple side kick (Twimyo Samjung Yop Chagi)
> 
> Triple vertical kick
> 
> Flying Reverse Hooking Kick (Twimyo Bandae Dollyo Goro Chagi)
> 
> Flying Crescent Kick (Twimyo Bandal Chagi)
> 
> Flying Reverse Hooking and Turning Kick (Twimyo Bandae Dollyo Goro Chagi wa Dollyo Chagi) in a single jump
> 
> Flying Crescent and Side Piercing Kick (Twimyo Bandal Chagi Wa Yopcha Jireugi) in a single jump
> 
> Mid Air Kick (Twio Dolmyo Chagi) and a 360 spinning variant
> 
> Mid air strike (Twimyo Dolmyo Taerigi) in 180 and 360 degree variants
> 
> Flying high kick (Twimyo Nopi Chagi)
> 
> Flying Side Front Kick (Twimyo Yobap Chagi)
> 
> Flying Middle Twisting Kick (Twimyo Kaunde Bituro Chagi)
> 
> Flying Outward Vertical Kick (Twimyo Bakuro Sewo Chagi)
> 
> Flying High Twisting Kick (Twimyo Nopunde Bitro Chagi)
> 
> Various jumping hand strikes and dodges with jumping kicks
> 
> Flying Hooking Kick (Twimyo Golcho Chagi)
> 
> Flying Double Foot Side Pushing Kick (Twimyo Doobal Yopcha Milgi)
> 
> Flying Twin Side Piercing Kick (Twimyo Sangbal Yopcha Jireugi)
> 
> Various flying hand techniques
> 
> Flying Double Side Kick (Twimyo I Jung Yop Chagi)
> 
> Flying Double Turning Kick (Twimyo I Jung Dollyo Chagi)
> 
> Flying Double Front Snap Kick (Twimyo I Jung Apcha Busigi)
> 
> Various flying hand techniques
> 
> Overhead Kick (Twio Nomo Chagi)
> 
> Flying Twin Foot Middle Twisting Kick (Twimyo Sangbal Kaunde Bituro Chagi)
> 
> Flying Foot Twin High Kick (Twimyo Sangbal Nopi Chagi)
> 
> Flying Square Punching Kick (Twio Sagak Jirumyo Chagi)
> 
> Flying Trapezoid Punching Kick (Twio Jekak Jirumyo Chagi)
> 
> Flying U Shape Punching Kick (Twio Digutja Jirumyo Chagi)
> 
> Flying Twin Foot Turning Kick (Twimyo Sangbal Dolkyo Chagi)
> 
> Flying Sprial Kick (Twimyo Nasonik Chagi)
> 
> Flying Triple Front Kick (Twimyo Samjung Ap Chagi)
> 
> Flying Triple Turning Kick (Twimyo Samjung Dollyo Chagi)
> 
> Flying Three Direction Kick (Twimyo Sambang Chagi)
> 
> Flying Four Direction Kick (Twimyo Sabang Chagi)
> 
> Variants combined with punches



None of this is part of my school, needless to say. The black belts (with a few exceptions) can barely extend their legs straight standing, let alone in the air. And yet they recieved black belts.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> None of this is part of my school, needless to say. The black belts (with a few exceptions) can barely extend their legs straight standing, let alone in the air. And yet they recieved black belts.


Perhaps their strengths lie in other areas. It is evident that what is practiced at your school is adjusted to suit the ability level of the people in the group. That doesn't mean that they are not worth a black belt, nor does it mean that these more advanced aerial techniques are not part of Taekwondo. Taekwondo means different things to different people and is a progressively challenging syllabus. This is as it should be.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> My school is what? From what bodily orifice did you extract this latest bit of tripe?
> We are, as I have said many times, a YMCA-based program, with open doors, free "come check it out" classes, and scholarships for those who cannot afford the $40 per month fee.
> Yeah. That's pretty private. Very exclusive.
> 
> What we can thus conclude is that you are, once again, completely and totally wrong. But don't let that stop you from blathering on.
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.



Well, I thought your students were taught privately, based on what your wrote earlier. Or you simply offer both and I missunderstod you.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> Perhaps their strengths lie in other areas. It is evident that what is practiced at your school is adjusted to suit the ability level of the people in the group. That doesn't mean that they are not worth a black belt, nor does it mean that these more advanced aerial techniques are not part of Taekwondo. Taekwondo means different things to different people and is a progressively challenging syllabus. This is as it should be.



I strongly disagree. If you are not able to (properly) execute the techniques with straight legs, you are not a legitimate black belt. Nobody has ever been rejected a grading, that they know of, when I asked a black belt.

This degrades the importance of belt and ranking. It has no meaning.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> I strongly disagree. If you are not able to (properly) execute the techniques with straight legs, you are not a legitimate black belt. Nobody has ever been rejected a grading, that they know of, when I asked a black belt.
> 
> This degrades the importance of belt and ranking. It has no meaning.


Entirely different discussion. Start a new thread if you like. 

Black belt carries meaning for those who earn it and those who award it. If you are not either of those people, who are you to judge? 

It's clear enough that your highly qualified 8th dan instructor views them as good enough. I'd be more inclined to accept his opinion than yours.


----------



## Laplace_demon

[QUOTE="Gnarlie, post: 1699003, member: 27131"

It's clear enough that your highly qualified 8th dan instructor views them as good enough. I'd be more inclined to accept his opinion than yours.[/QUOTE]

You don't find it embarrassing at all that I, a mere yellow belt, can execute techniques correctly and fast, while the black belts looks like beginners? We train against each other and when we switch turns kicking, it looks like I trained for ten years, and they started in august. If you don't pass the exam, you shouldn't get it either. By your logic, not solving the math questions, but understanding them in theory would be enough, despite incorrect answers.

It is related to the discussion, given that experienced practioners of the art are not capable of performing high kicks or aerials, which is supposed to be an integral part of Tae Kwon Do, according to the threadmaker. I thus challenge this very notion.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> You don't find it embarrassing at all that I, a mere yellow belt, can execute techniques correctly and fast, while the black belts looks like beginners?


I haven't seen them or you train, but again, I wouldn't take your word for it, because you have pretty limited experience, and therefore limited self awareness.


Laplace_demon said:


> We train against each other and when we switch turns kicking, it looks like I trained for ten years, and they started in august.


To your yellow belt eyes, perhaps.


Laplace_demon said:


> If you don't pass the exam, you shouldn't get it either.


Never said otherwise.


Laplace_demon said:


> By your logic, not solving the math questions, but understanding them in theory would be enough, despite incorrect answers.


By your logic, the paralympics would not exist, parataekwondo would not exist, and every black belt would be able to execute every technique 100% correctly. This is patently not the case, particularly for lower dan grades.


Laplace_demon said:


> It is related to the discussion, given that experienced practioners of the art are not capable of performing high kicks or aerials, which is supposed to be an integral part of Tae Kwon Do, according to the threadmaker. I thus challenge this very notion.



It is an integral part of Taekwondo according to two other, rather more authoritative and credible sources: the Kukkiwon, and Choi's encyclopedia. The techniques we are discussing are demonstration techniques. It is absolutely not necessary to be able to perform them to reach a dan grade. They are part of the syllabus, but everybody's skills and abilities are different. These techniques exist to challenge the more talented among our number. Being a black belt is about reaching and developing your own potential, not about reaching some arbitrary standard that somebody else applies. People do fail gradings, but it is generally because it is clear to the examiner that they are not trying to perform to their potential. There is no universal standard for black belt. There are some techniques to be demonstrated, and then it's up to the examiner to decide if they have been performed to the best of the candidate's ability.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Nobody has ever been rejected a grading, that they know of, when I asked a black belt.



Do you honestly think they would tell a yellow belt if someone had?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> I haven't seen them or you train, but again, I wouldn't take your word for it, because you have pretty limited experience, and therefore limited self awareness.
> 
> To your yellow belt eyes, perhaps.
> 
> Never said otherwise.
> 
> By your logic, the paralympics would not exist, parataekwondo would not exist, and every black belt would be able to execute every technique 100% correctly. This is patently not the case, particularly for lower dan grades.
> 
> 
> It is an integral part of Taekwondo according to two other, rather more authoritative and credible sources: the Kukkiwon, and Choi's encyclopedia. The techniques we are discussing are demonstration techniques. It is absolutely not necessary to be able to perform them to reach a dan grade. They are part of the syllabus, but everybody's skills and abilities are different. These techniques exist to challenge the more talented among our number. Being a black belt is about reaching and developing your own potential, not about reaching some arbitrary standard that somebody else applies. People do fail gradings, but it is generally because it is clear to the examiner that they are not trying to perform to their potential. There is no universal standard for black belt. There are some techniques to be demonstrated, and then it's up to the examiner to decide if they have been performed to the best of the candidate's ability.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



They can't kick with their legs straight. It doesn't take Einstein to see that they are doing it incorrectly. They struggle. I happen to know how it should be done, since I have relatives in both Boxing and Karate at world class levels. I am the son of one of them.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> I
> By your logic, the paralympics would not exist, parataekwondo would not exist, and every black belt would be able to execute every technique 100% correctly. This is patently not the case, particularly for lower dan grades.



Surely you understand that we judge disabled people by different criterias than non disabled.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Surely you understand that we judge disabled people by different criterias than non disabled.



Of course. And surely you understand that we judge a 50 year old, a 20 year old, and people with an invisible illness differently. You don't know what personal battle those people may be facing.

I am not suggesting that they are not fully fit, they may well be, but my point is you don't know what battle they have fought to get to where they are. Their instructor does, and they do. If your 8th dan instructor thinks they deserve it, then they deserve it, and you judging both instructor and student by saying what you are saying just makes you appear, well, arrogant and ignorant.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> Of course. And surely you understand that we judge a 50 year old, a 20 year old, and people with an invisible illness differently. You don't know what personal battle those people may be facing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



What I am talking about ranges all from 16 years old to 40. These are happy, energetic people that would get mugged in a hurry - can't throw a punch or kick to save their life. I have no objections to their participation in training, but I do object to the awarding of black belts.

There should exist a standard, and if you don't reach it - train harder!  I speak the truth and  simply cannot tolerate to pretend as if it were different.  The level is *very* low.

Can you imagine non disabled south and north koreans that can't throw a high kick, or extend their legs, awarded black belts? This is mcdojo. No getting around it.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> What I am talking about ranges all from 16 years old to 40. These are happy, energetic people that would get mugged in a hurry - can't throw a punch or kick to save their life. I have no objections to their participation in training, but I do object to the awarding of black belts.
> 
> There should exist a standard, and if you don't reach it - train harder!  I speak the truth and  simply cannot tolerate to pretend as if it were different.  The level is *very* low.
> 
> Can you imagine non disabled south and north koreans that can't throw a high kick, or extend their legs, awarded black belts? This is mcdojo. No getting around it.



Why don't you email your instructor that feedback directly?

If you don't agree with his ethics, why do you continue to train there?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> Why don't you email your instructor that feedback directly?
> 
> If you don't agree with his ethics, why do you continue to train there?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Because I don't choose where I train based on ethics. McDojo and TKD is unavoidable in the west. Everybody knows this.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Because I don't choose were I train based on ethics. Plus McDojo and TKD is unavoidable in the west. Everybody knows this.



I've found plenty of great TKD in the west. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> Because I don't choose were I train based on ethics. McDojo and TKD is unavoidable in the west. Everybody knows this.



This statement right here shows limited experience to TKD


----------



## Laplace_demon

Drose427 said:


> This statement right here shows limited experience to TKD



Given my instructors credentials, I'd say it was an eye opener. There are probably some but few and far away.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> Can you imagine non disabled south and north koreans that can't throw a high kick, or extend their legs, awarded black belts? This is mcdojo. No getting around it.


I don't need to imagine it. I see it first hand every day. It's got nothing to do with McDojangs. Lower Dan grades are not high ranks. They are very low ranks. It's possible to earn a 2nd Dan in two years. That's not a lot of time to fully develop skill. Instructors are looking at more than skill. They want to see effort and progress. 

Perhaps you should dedicate more of your efforts into making your own progress and less toward criticizing your classmates and instructor until you've trained a decade or two or start producing your own students. I'm not trying to be insulting, just offering some friendly advice. Good luck with your training.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> I don't need to imagine it. I see it first hand every day..



But have you seen blackbelts in Korea?



Jaeimseu said:


> I
> Perhaps you should dedicate more of your efforts into making your own progress and less toward criticizing your classmates and instructor until you've trained a decade or two or start producing your own students. I'm not trying to be insulting, just offering some friendly advice. Good luck with your training.



Oh, no, of course not ....Black belt is meant to denote a certain degree of skill. Anyone awarding someone that can't do basics, has simply not followed his/hers own teachings/preachings.

_"Generally, a black belt is at least very proficient in a style's techniques" Martial Arts Black Belt History and Experts_


----------



## Gnarlie

You don't agree with his ethics but you still train there. That must mean that one of the following is true:

You are satisfied with WHAT is being taught, just not how it is being tested.

OR

You believe that WHAT is taught is not important, because you believe you know better than your instructor.

OR

You are not satisfied with what is being taught or how it is tested, but you don't have the common sense to come in out of the rain.

If it is the first option, then get your head down and make yourself what you want to be, and maybe in a few years new yellow belts will have a positive role model.

If it is the second or third options, you need to do some serious thinking.

Have you talked about your views directly with your instructor? Because publicly criticising his club online could be viewed as rather unfitting behaviour for a Taekwondoin regardless of rank. There is more to Taekwondo than physical skill.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> But have you seen blackbelts in Korea?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, no, of course not ....Black belt is meant to denote a certain degree of skill. Anyone awarding someone that can't do basics, has simply not followed his/hers own teachings.
> 
> _"Generally, a black belt is at least very proficient in a style's techniques" Martial Arts Black Belt History and Experts_


I teach black belts in Korea.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> I don't need to imagine it. I see it first hand every day..





Gnarlie said:


> You don't agree with his ethics but you still train there. That must mean that one of the following is true:
> 
> You are satisfied with WHAT is being taught, just not how it is being tested.
> 
> OR
> 
> You believe that WHAT is taught is not important, because you believe you know better than your instructor.
> 
> OR
> 
> You are not satisfied with what is being taught or how it is tested, but you don't have the common sense to come in out of the rain.
> 
> If it is the first option, then get your head down and make yourself what you want to be, and maybe in a few years new yellow belts will have a positive role model.
> 
> If it is the second or third options, you need to do some serious thinking.
> 
> Have you talked about your views directly with your instructor? Because publicly criticising his club online could be viewed as rather unfitting behaviour for a Taekwondoin regardless of rank. There is more to Taekwondo than physical skill.



It is specifically prohibited to critize or question older master. I generelly dislike this  cult-following, which martial arts often carry with them.

I don't know what you don't understand. There are no other schools nearby, and my instructor is more than qualified to teach.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> I teach black belts in Korea.



Do you think a perfectly fit practitioner, unable to perform basic kicks, is qualified for a black belt in Taekwondo?


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Do you think a perfectly fit practitioner, unable to perform basic kicks, is qualified for a black belt in Taekwondo?



How do you know they are fit?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> How do you know they are fit?



Why assume otherwise? They can certainly jump and run perfectly fine. If such a person has not put in the time required in stretching and practice, he/she does not make the cut in my world. You see, In my world a black belt signifies something.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> Do you think a perfectly fit practitioner, unable to perform basic kicks, is qualified for a black belt in Taekwondo?


What did they look like on day one and how do they look now in respect to that? If you don't know where they started, how can you make an accurate judgement?

There is no 100% objective grading standard in taekwondo. If there were, who's to say that you would make the cut? Or me? Or anyone else? Who decides where the bar is set? It's an individual thing.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> It is specifically prohibited to critize or question older master. I generelly dislike this  cult-following, which martial arts often carry with them.
> 
> I don't know what you don't understand. There are no other schools nearby, and my instructor is more than qualified to teach.


I don't think there is anything wrong with questioning a teacher (respectfully). I don't have a problem with someone voicing a criticism of a teacher's methods. Maybe you prefer the way a different teacher teaches. But to come on here, give the teachers name, and say that his students are bad and that you are better than his black belts seems a bit over the line. Does your instructor know you are doing this?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> What did they look like on day one and how do they look now in respect to that? If you don't know where they started, how can you make an accurate judgement?
> 
> There is no 100% objective grading standard in taekwondo. If there were, who's to say that you would make the cut? Or me? Or anyone else? Who decides where the bar is set? It's an individual thing.



Has nothing to do with it. If you can't kick properly, you don't master the basics. Kicking properly entails full extension, not bent legs, when the technique calls for it.



Jaeimseu said:


> I don't think there is anything wrong with questioning a teacher (respectfully). I don't have a problem with someone voicing a criticism of a teacher's methods. Maybe you prefer the way a different teacher teaches. But to come on here, give the teachers name, and say that his students are bad and that you are better than his black belts seems a bit over the line. Does your instructor know you are doing this?



Dirty Dog asked for his name and he got it. Now you complain once he got it that I crossed the line. I also added that this is not unique for my club.  I can say whatever I want. I don't think telling the truth is crossing the line.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> Has nothing to do with it. If you can't kick properly, you don't master the basic. Kicking properly entails full extension, not bent legs, when the technique calls for it.
> 
> 
> 
> Dirty Dog asked for his name and he got it. Now you complain once he got it that I crossed the line. I also added that this is not unique for my club.  I can say whatever I want. I don't think telling the truth is crossing the line.


Would you feel comfortable showing what you have written to your instructor? You are talking about him. Doesn't his opinion matter?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> Would you feel comfortable showing what you have written to your instructor? You are talking about him. Doesn't his opinion matter?



You are not allowed to question. I would have done it from day one if I could, and voiced my opinion. Although I am quite certain he wouldn't take it very well when I inform him that most of his black belts don't meet a fairly basic criteria. I don't go to a taekwondo club for philosophical enquiry. Discussions are to be preserved for forums such as these.


----------



## TrueJim

Gnarlie said:


> There is no universal standard for black belt. There are some techniques to be demonstrated, and then it's up to the examiner to decide if they have been performed to the best of the candidate's ability.



I'm not disagreeing Gnarlie, but I think it's an interesting observation that you make: I've never heard anybody express it the way you have.

If I understand you correctly, you're expressing the viewpoint that the term "black belt" literally has a different _definition_ for each person. Like, if I'm an 80-year old student testing for 1st Dan, the definition of "black belt" is: "Have you performed at the level we would expect a dedicated, hard-working, focused 80-year old person to perform at." Or as another example, if a person weighs 400 pounds and tests for 1st Dan, the definition for them would be, "Have they performed at the level we would expect from a dedicated, hard-working, focused -- but overweight -- 400-pound person."

Though I've never thought of it this way before, I find that viewpoint interesting. Black Belt then wouldn't be a measure of _proficiency_ as much as it would be a measure of focus, dedication, and hard-work. It makes sense, but it's very different from the "Could you hold your own in a bar-fight against multiple opponents" definition that we so often fall back upon in these discussions.

Or to put it another way, and I know I'm over-simplifying, but if I understand you correctly, your definition of Black Belt is tied more to _effort_ than to _proficiency_. Like, it's not "are you good", it's "are you the best you can be." That's food for thought.


----------



## Jaeimseu

TrueJim said:


> I'm not disagreeing Gnarlie, but I think it's an interesting observation that you make: I've never heard anybody express it the way you have.
> 
> If I understand you correctly, you're expressing the viewpoint that the term "black belt" literally has a different _definition_ for each person. Like, if I'm an 80-year old student testing for 1st Dan, the definition of "black belt" is: "Have you performed at the level we would expect a dedicated, hard-working, focused 80-year old person to perform at." Or as another example, if a person weighs 400 pounds and tests for 1st Dan, the definition for them would be, "Have they performed at the level we would expect from a dedicated, hard-working, focused -- but overweight -- 400-pound person."
> 
> Though I've never thought of it this way before, I find that viewpoint interesting. Black Belt then wouldn't be a measure of _proficiency_ as much as it would be a measure of focus, dedication, and hard-work. It makes sense, but it's very different from the "Could you hold your own in a bar-fight against multiple opponents" definition that we so often fall back upon in these discussions.
> 
> Or to put it another way, and I know I'm over-simplifying, but if I understand you correctly, your definition of Black Belt is tied more to _effort_ than to _proficiency_. Like, it's not "are you good", it's "are you the best you can be." That's food for thought.


I've never cared for the "can hold your own against x number of attackers" criterion. There are far too many variables out of the student's control, most of which have little to nothing to do with the training received. I much prefer to judge a student on progress and effort. I would only fail a student in extremely rare circumstances, but I also try to avoid testing students who aren't ready.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Why assume otherwise? They can certainly jump and run perfectly fine. If such a person has not put in the time required in stretching and practice, he/she does not make the cut in my world. You see, In my world a black belt signifies something.



For all you know they could be suffering with crippling gout or have an unusual bone structure. I am not saying they do, I am saying you don't know their story. Your instructor does.

I can't fully straighten my arms. Not due to lack of stretching, but due to unusual bone structure. It wouldn't matter how much I tried or wished, it is just not something I can do. This makes certain techniques, such as ridge hand strike, very impractical for me. Does this mean I have to give back my black belt?

Black belt signifies something in my world too. We will talk about it more when you have one. It will be difficult for you to earn one without making some significant changes.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Laplace_demon said:


> By your logic, not solving the math questions, but understanding them in theory would be enough, despite incorrect answers.


As someone who has sat many math exams I can tell you that you still get marks for understanding the theory even if you get an incorrect answer, that's why you are required to show your working.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Laplace_demon said:


> related to the discussion, given that experienced practioners of the art are not capable of performing high kicks or aerials, which is supposed to be an integral part of Tae Kwon Do, according to the threadmaker. I thus challenge this very notion.


Just because something is an integral part of Tae Kwon Do it does not mean that it has to be a major part.


----------



## Gnarlie

TrueJim said:


> I'm not disagreeing Gnarlie, but I think it's an interesting observation that you make: I've never heard anybody express it the way you have.
> 
> If I understand you correctly, you're expressing the viewpoint that the term "black belt" literally has a different _definition_ for each person. Like, if I'm an 80-year old student testing for 1st Dan, the definition of "black belt" is: "Have you performed at the level we would expect a dedicated, hard-working, focused 80-year old person to perform at." Or as another example, if a person weighs 400 pounds and tests for 1st Dan, the definition for them would be, "Have they performed at the level we would expect from a dedicated, hard-working, focused -- but overweight -- 400-pound person."
> 
> Though I've never thought of it this way before, I find that viewpoint interesting. Black Belt then wouldn't be a measure of _proficiency_ as much as it would be a measure of focus, dedication, and hard-work. It makes sense, but it's very different from the "Could you hold your own in a bar-fight against multiple opponents" definition that we so often fall back upon in these discussions.
> 
> Or to put it another way, and I know I'm over-simplifying, but if I understand you correctly, your definition of Black Belt is tied more to _effort_ than to _proficiency_. Like, it's not "are you good", it's "are you the best you can be." That's food for thought.



I think you understand. There is an objective measure, which for KKW TKD is the 8 Taegeuk forms and basic techniques in the areas the examiner wants to see on the day. On top of that, there is a subjective measure, 'does this person convey the values of TKD in what they are doing'.

For an examiner testing students with whom he or she has regular contact, their journey becomes a part of that last question. The change they have effected in their life becomes a part of the picture. Take a person who started out with extremely weak hips or responds very slowly to stretching, for example. They discussed the problem with the instructor, asked for advice, worked hard and have improved, but still have a problem. They train at every possible opportunity, and sweat and sweat to further improve from that weakness. I could see how an instructor would let them through first dan, knowing that their current training ethic will overcome that weakness with time.

A new yellow belt walking in the door would only see the product of that decision, and not the back story. That yellow belt would judging from a position of ignorance.

I don't hold with the 'hold your own against' measure for black belt, because frankly I believe that is a fantasy. Regular Taekwondo practice is realistically a very far cry from the world of actual, real violence, and actual, real violence is certainly not something that a black belt should be getting involved with. I would be unhappy measuring someone's ability to defend themselves unless I had actually taught them to defend themselves. Defensive ability is a by-product of studying Taekwondo, but it is certainly not the measure of a first dan.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Laplace_demon said:


> They can't kick with their legs straight. It doesn't take Einstein to see that they are doing it incorrectly. They struggle. I happen to know how it should be done, since I have relatives in both Boxing and Karate at world class levels. I am the son of one of them.


It would help the rest of us to see your black belts in action if you have a video then we could have an objective look at their technique.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Laplace_demon said:


> Because I don't choose where I train based on ethics


I do, that's why I chose a good school. How do you choose where you train?


----------



## Dirty Dog

RTKDCMB said:


> It would help the rest of us to see your black belts in action if you have a video then we could have an objective look at their technique.



Personally, I'd be more interested in seeing a video of him. I've seen lots of yellow belts who think they've got great kicks. And some of them do, for yellow belts. I have yet to see a yellow belt who didn't need to improve their technique.
But this fellow insists his kicks are already perfect. I'd like to see that.


----------



## Gnarlie

Dirty Dog said:


> Personally, I'd be more interested in seeing a video of him. I've seen lots of yellow belts who think they've got great kicks. And some of them do, for yellow belts. I have yet to see a yellow belt who didn't need to improve their technique.
> But this fellow insists his kicks are already perfect. I'd like to see that.


+1. There are videos online of a master's seminar from this club. I would be interested to know if Laplace's view extends to those higher dan grades, or whether we are only talking about first dans here.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Do you have a link to these videos? I'd like to see them, while we're waiting for our little prodigy to show us his own video.


----------



## Gnarlie

I just google video'd the instructor's name.


----------



## Dirty Dog

I found that and a demo video from 1978 which I think is also from Master Yeo.
Personally, I don't see anything in this video that supports our paragon of perfections claim that the school is a McDojo. The techniques I see here are valid and effective and although they're being performed at practice speed, the execution is appropriate.


----------



## Gnarlie

Dirty Dog said:


> I found that and a demo video from 1978 which I think is also from Master Yeo.
> Personally, I don't see anything in this video that supports our paragon of perfections claim that the school is a McDojo. The techniques I see here are valid and effective and although they're being performed at practice speed, the execution is appropriate.



Yep, all looks fine to me too.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Gnarlie said:


> Yep, all looks fine to me too.


Looks fairly typical to me, too. Maybe someone has an exaggerated view of "black belt."


----------



## Laplace_demon

These guys are technically legit black belts. How come none of them are disabled (!) and can kick accurately,. If I didn't know better it seems highly probable, given some of  the lame excuses offered here.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> These guys are technically legit black belts. How come none of them are disabled (!) and can kick accurately,. If I didn't know better it seems highly probable, given some of  the lame excuses offered here.



It is not clear what you are saying. Please read what you wrote and restate with correct sentence structure.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> You are not allowed to question. I would have done it from day one if I could, and voiced my opinion. Although I am quite certain he wouldn't take it very well when I inform him that most of his black belts don't meet a fairly basic criteria



I imagine that telling the senior instructor that his black belts don't meet that standards expected by a low grade is a very good way to find out what the senior instructors striking standards are.  I know what our senior instructor would say and do. I would be getting the ice packs out as soon as the first words started coming out of the low grades mouth.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> I imagine that telling the senior instructor that his black belts don't meet that standards expected by a low grade is a very good way to find out what the senior instructors striking standards are.  I know what our senior instructor would say and do. I would be getting the ice packs out as soon as the first words started coming out of the low grades mouth.



Exactly. I would have greatly offended the instructor, and most likely get kicked out. Why ask a question you already know the answer to?


----------



## Tez3

Dirty Dog said:


> I found that and a demo video from 1978 which I think is also from Master Yeo.
> Personally, I don't see anything in this video that supports our paragon of perfections claim that the school is a McDojo. The techniques I see here are valid and effective and although they're being performed at practice speed, the execution is appropriate.



Lots of non specifically TKD techniques in there that I recognise, reminded me of a couple which is very useful. It looks a very good seminar I'd be very happy to attend. I'd be stuck on anything specifically TKD but I can't see anything as you say that marks it as a McDojo.What on earth is he expecting, flying Ninjas, disappearing through walls?


----------



## Laplace_demon

And to our beloved moderator Dirty Dog: I ain't no prodigy. But I am the son of a karateka prodigy, who was once in the top 3.


Tez3 said:


> Lots of non specifically TKD techniques in there that I recognise, reminded me of a couple which is very useful. It looks a very good seminar I'd be very happy to attend. I'd be stuck on anything specifically TKD but I can't see anything as you say that marks it as a McDojo.What on earth is he expecting, flying Ninjas, disappearing through walls?



He is of course legitimate. A fairly large portion of his black belts are not. My point is that he's too nice and that a black belt evidently means very little in our club. He cannot ask us to observe the higher ranks if they don't meet his standards. It simply doesn't make sense.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> Exactly. I would have greatly offended the instructor, and most likely get kicked out. Why ask a question you already know the answer to?




Really, you miss the point totally, I'll put it down to your ignorance of the English language shall I. In plainer English...you as a beginner...have totally no idea...of the standards expected of a black belt. You as a beginner...have not enough knowledge...to *criticise*...a senior instructor...you can ask questions if you don't understand   you can query things...but you have no knowledge or experience that allows you to criticise a senior instructor.

I could criticise the way a heart surgeon operates on someone but my criticism has no validity because I am not a doctor or a nurse or even a medical practitioner in any field. You are barely a martial artist still, you have no validity when you criticise the senior instructor in his field.

Adding on the end to save another post. My mother was a very talented jeweller, I am not. Being the son of a talented parented doesn't mean you actually know or can do anything.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> These guys are technically legit black belts. How come none of them are disabled (!) and can kick accurately,. If I didn't know better it seems highly probable, given some of  the lame excuses offered here.


I don't follow you. Is an ITF demo team supposed to be representative of normal black belts?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> Really, you miss the point totally, I'll put it down to your ignorance of the English language shall I. In plainer English...you as a beginner...have totally no idea...of the standards expected of a black belt. You as a beginner...have not enough knowledge...to *criticise*...a senior instructor...you can ask questions if you don't understand   you can query things...but you have no knowledge or experience that allows you to criticise a senior instructor.
> 
> I could criticise the way a heart surgeon operates on someone but my criticism has no validity because I am not a doctor or a nurse or even a medical practitioner in any field. You are barely a martial artist still, you have no validity when you criticise the senior instructor in his field.



I know how a proper kick looks like. Do want some youtube clips of my father?


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> I know how a proper kick looks like. Do want some youtube clips of my father?




All that would prove is that your father can ( or can't) kick, I want to see a video of you kicking.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> All that would prove is that your father can ( or can't) kick, I want to see a video of you kicking.



I can kick correctly, but it wouldnt matter if I couldn`t, since I am not a black belt.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> I don't follow you. Is an ITF demo team supposed to be representative of normal black belts?



There is nothing magical about their turning kicks, or the height they reach. And it should be representative, yes. The acrobatics: No.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> I can kick correctly, but it wouldnt matter if I couldn`t, since I am not a black belt.



So there it is again: all black belts have to be perfect all the time. 

If first dan represents perfection, why are there higher dan grades?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> So there it is again: all black belts have to be perfect all the time.
> 
> If first dan represents perfection, why are there higher dan grades?



Full extention is not perfection, it's basics.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Full extention is not perfection. It's basics.



So are sentence structure, spelling and grammar, and yet we are tolerant of your errors given that we suspect you are not a native speaker of English. Why don't you afford similar tolerance to others?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> So are sentence structure, spelling and grammar, and yet we are tolerant of your errors given that we suspect you are not a native speaker of English. Why don't you afford similar tolerance to others?



Because I don't intend on graduating in English or being examined on it. That is however the case for aspiring black belts. It's an examination.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Because I don't intend on graduating in English or being examined on it. That is however the case for aspiring black belts. It's an examination.


And yet you want to use the language to communicate in real life, and don't always do so effectively. Those black belts have passed the exam (you have not) and they don't (hopefully) intend to have to use Taekwondo in real life.

Sounds like glass houses and stones to me.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> And yet you want to use the language to communicate in real life, and don't always do so effectively. Those black belts have passed the exam (you have not) and they don't (hopefully) intend to have to use Taekwondo in real life.
> 
> Sounds like glass houses and stones to me.



I assume given your flawed logic, that you wouldn't mind a math teacher who couldn't count? I mean, you don't need to use advanced calculus in your every day life, who cares! Let's be nice and graduate them in math, simply for trying very hard.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> I can kick correctly, but it wouldnt matter if I couldn`t, since I am not a black belt.




Here's a word for you,' bollocks'. I have no idea what you think 'black belts' are. For me, kicks have to be effective, now whether they are technically perfect or not doesn't matter, they have to be workable and effective. I will tell you know that as a black belt ( and instructor) my kicks aren't 'correct' or perfect, in fact I've said elsewhere, for physiological reasons I can't do side kicks properly at all. What I do is teach effect kicks that do damage. I teach kicks that people can do _as correctly as possible_ so they don't hurt themselves and so that they can be as effective as possible but those kicks can never be perfect. Demo teams are chosen from those who are young, fit and can do techniques that are aesthetically pleasing to watch and can demonstrate ( which is the point of a demo team) the more exciting, flashier parts of your style. They aren't the everyday, working martial arts that we do to be..and again that word...*effective*.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> I assume given your flawed logic, that you wouldn't mind a math teacher who couldn't count? I mean, you don't need to use advanced calculus in your every day life, who cares! Let's be nice and graduate them in math, simply for trying very hard.



Your analogy is flawed. Mathematics has a right answer, martial arts competence is subjective, and is a journey rather than a destination. 

I'll tell you what logic is flawed - the logic that leads you to think that your opinion on what constitutes a black belt carries any weight in what is effectively a room full of very experienced martial artists and black belts.

I don't see anyone agreeing with you here...hmm, what does that tell us?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> Your analogy is flawed. Mathematics has a right answer, martial arts competence is subjective, and is a journey rather than a destination.
> 
> I'll tell you what logic is flawed - the logic that leads you to think that your opinion on what constitutes a black belt carries any weight in what is effectively a room full of very experienced martial artists and black belts.
> 
> I don't see anyone agreeing with you here...hmm, what does that tell us?



That you are all being politically correct, as expected. Martial art techniques are not subjective in their delivery. 9 out of 10  young black belts don't have hip replacements. The objection offered simply doesn't cut it. I find it an utter disgrace to never reject black belt testers. I know TKD schools that do, and they have my respect. They care about more than money.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> That you are all being politically correct, as expected.



Hah! It's political correctness gooone maaad. Please.


Laplace_demon said:


> Martial art techniques are not subjective in their delivery. 9 out of 10  young black belts don't have hip replacements. The objection offered simply doesn't cut it.


Doesn't cut it for who? For you? Sorry, but your opinion as an examiner doesn't cut it until at least 4th dan, dear boy. 


Laplace_demon said:


> I find it an utter disgrace to never reject black belt testers.



I find it a disgrace to say something about an instructor in a public forum that you would not say to his face, but, you know.

We reject people all the time if they are not ready. We just don't set them up to fail. I suspect the same happens behind closed doors at your club - those who are not ready are not allowed to test. If that does happen, you as a lowly yellow belt would never know it. 

That said, typical pass rate in the UK was about 60%. Here in Germany it is similar.


Laplace_demon said:


> I know TKD schools that do, and they have my respect. They care about more than money.



Wow, they must feel honoured to have earned the respect of such an authority in the field of martial prowess.


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## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> I find it a disgrace to say something about an instructor in a public forum that you would not say to his face, but, you know.
> .



You know as well as I do that I would get kicked out of the school if I did. Are you suggesting I be an idiot?


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## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> You know as well as I do, that I would get kicked out of the school if I did. Are you suggesting I be an idiot?


No, that is not what I am suggesting....

Just to be clear, I am suggesting that you have been both unwise and unfair in discussing it here.


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## Earl Weiss

Laplace_demon said:


> Oh, really? How many of these aerial kicks do you master, then?
> 
> -


 
I have never considered myself a great jumper, having "White man's disease" (You need to have seen the movie) However I will address your questions.  Further, I would not claim to have "Mastered"  much of anything.:

-tornado reverse side;  . Provide a link. Terminology is non specific
-- flying reverse side; -   Been there , done that with succesful  destruction
-- assisted jumping roundhouse;--Provide a link. Terminology is non specific
-- 360- 540- 720 crescent and roundhouses, etc.   360 - Yes.  Some terminology is BS. I only consider degree of rotation with both feet off the ground.   Some people perform more than a full rotation in the air, but few if any perform 2 full rotations in the air.  Links would be helpful
-- double jumping front kick  - Been there , done that with succesful  destruction, both feet same time 2 targets and alternating feet as well
-- flying scissors kick -Provide a link. Terminology is non specific
-- triple (or quad) flying front kick(s) - Triple as in alternating legs - yes.  Single foot 3 times - No
-- flip-back double-jumping front kick. No back flips more me. Have had ITF students do this at my school.

And all this proves what?


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## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> That you are all being politically correct, as expected. Martial art techniques are not subjective in their delivery. 9 out of 10  young black belts don't have hip replacements. The objection offered simply doesn't cut it. I find it an utter disgrace to never reject black belt testers. I know TKD schools that do, and they have my respect. They care about more than money.




Politically correct? I don't understand what you mean by that.

"I find it an utter disgrace to never reject black belt testers"  This sentence also makes little sense. A  'tester' is the person who tests the students, not the person who takes the test. There's no reason to 'reject' anyone who wants to test for a belt, you can and many, many do,* fail* students who do not do well enough in their grade testing. Not just in TKD but many other styles as well.

Martial arts should be for everyone who want do them, we as instructors should be enabling as many as possible to train. Very few people are without physical imperfections, some may have 'hidden' conditions such as diabetes, MS, asthma etc. Others may have something like hypermobility, ADHD, dyspraxia etc. I've taught people with all those conditions. A friend of mine teaches Judo to blind people, another has an instructor who only has one foot ( it maybe TKD I'll have to ask). We aren't about making 'perfect' martial artists we are about making people the best martial artists they can be. We have a separate class for those that want to be MMA fighters, pro or amateur but even they are trying to be the best they can be not the 'perfect' MMA fighter.

Come down off your high horse, it must be cold up there. Accept that people do their best and while it's good to have ideals, you have *no* *right* to criticise them because you are a beginner with no experience, no knowledge other than knowing something is 'correct' when you see it, well, sunshine, we can all do that. I can look at a Rembrandt and think well that's perfect, can I do it, can others, no they can't but that doesn't give me the right to criticise them for trying and for trying their best at that.

I have a T-shirt that says on the front 'STFU and train'... imagine I'm wearing it now.


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## Earl Weiss

I did some judging with Sr Master Hutchinson in I think 1997 in Russia, and / or perhaps 2001 in Italy.

I can't see him not entertaining proper, respectful questions.  It has now been some time since I saw him . Perhaps he will remember me. Send my regards.


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## RTKDCMB

Laplace_demon said:


> Are you suggesting I be an idiot?


Are you sure you want to ask that?


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## Tony Dismukes

Laplace_demon said:


> Is a relevant sample, every single posting regarding the difference, that ITFers are slower kickers and that WTFers knows and are more proficient at aerial kicking?


In both this thread and others on this site, plenty of very experienced TKD practitioners have made posts which do *not *back up that statement. Therefore it is not true that "every single posting" states that as the difference. In fact, I'm not sure that I've seen _any_ other posts from our TKD practicing members (other than yourself) making that statement.



Laplace_demon said:


> You don't find it embarrassing at all that I, a mere yellow belt, can execute techniques correctly and fast, while the black belts looks like beginners? We train against each other and when we switch turns kicking, it looks like I trained for ten years, and they started in august.





Laplace_demon said:


> What I am talking about ranges all from 16 years old to 40. These are happy, energetic people that would get mugged in a hurry - can't throw a punch or kick to save their life.



I haven't seen your school, so I will offer no opinion on whether your perception is correct. I will ask this: if the majority of the senior students in your school have significantly less skill than you (a beginner) do, then why do you train there? If this is truly the case, then it would seem to indicate that your instructor does a very poor job of teaching and you will be unlikely to learn much of value. Why not go to some other school where you can tell that the students are successfully learning the material? If there are no good TKD schools in your area, why not pick a different martial art?



Laplace_demon said:


> It is specifically prohibited to critize or question older master. I generelly dislike this cult-following, which martial arts often carry with them.



Is this an official rule or just an understood social norm? I don't care for it much either way, myself, but the former would really rub me the wrong way. I'm not a big fan of rigidly enforced social hierarchies.

That said, I am a big believer in being polite and respectful to everyone, regardless of rank. I'm also a believer in being aware of the limitations of my own knowledge and understanding. I think there's usually a respectful way to question ones instructor without presenting an attitude of "you're doing this all wrong."


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## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> Just to be clear, I am suggesting that you have been both unwise and unfair in discussing it here.




So sue me. I can criticize whoever I want to. This is not North Korea. Blame the guy who challenged me and asked for his name. It was he and not me that decided to make it public, by challenging me to name the instructor, thinking I didn't have the balls to do it. He was misstaken.




Tony Dismukes said:


> In both this thread and others on this site, plenty of very experienced TKD practitioners have made posts which do *not *back up that statement. Therefore it is not true that "every single posting" states that as the difference. In fact, I'm not sure that I've seen _any_ other posts from our TKD practicing members (other than yourself) making that statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't seen your school, so I will offer no opinion on whether your perception is correct. I will ask this: if the majority of the senior students in your school have significantly less skill than you (a beginner) do, then why do you train there? If this is truly the case, then it would seem to indicate that your instructor does a very poor job of teaching and you will be unlikely to learn much of value. Why not go to some other school where you can tell that the students are successfully learning the material? If there are no good TKD schools in your area, why not pick a different martial art?



You are right in the sense that my eventual black belt will have no significance. I know already it doesn't take any skill in my school to get it, besides a pulse.  I happen to like TKD, and don't seek to get my head smashed in with boxers and kickboxers, nor do I like Karate training.


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## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> So sue me. I can criticize whoever I want to. This is not North Korea. Blame the guy who challenged me and asked for his name. It was he and not me that decided to make it public, by challenging me to name the instructor, thinking I didn't have the balls to do it. He was misstaken.



Still, he baited you, and you bit, and that leaves you vulnerable, given that your instructor is pretty easily directly contactable via his website.



Laplace_demon said:


> You are right in the sense that my eventual black belt will have no significance. I know already it doesn't take any skill in my school to get it, besides a pulse.  I happen to like TKD, and don't seek to get my head smashed in with boxers and kickboxers, nor do I like Karate training.



I will be surprised if you make it that far.


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## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> Still, he baited you, and you bit, and that leaves you vulnerable, given that your instructor is pretty easily directly contactable via his website.
> 
> .



I don't care if a no lifer informs my instructor. I have far bigger problems in my life than where I train.


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## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't care if a no lifer informs my instructor. I have far bigger problems in my life than where I train.



Clearly.


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## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> I happen to like TKD, and don't seek to get my head smashed in with boxers and kickboxers, nor do I like Karate training.



I see you know as much about boxing, kick boxing and karate as you do about TKD then.

You can of course criticise who you like but that doesn't make you correct, moral or even right.


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## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> I see you know as much about boxing, kick boxing and karate as you do about TKD then.
> 
> You can of course criticise who you like but that doesn't make you correct, moral or even right.



I mean it's full contact sparring (eventually). I have no real interest in it. I am too pretty!


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## Gnarlie

Tez3 said:


> I see you know as much about boxing, kick boxing and karate as you do about TKD then.
> 
> You can of course criticise who you like but that doesn't make you correct, moral or even right.



I just can't grasp how someone can be so judgmental, opinionated and sure of himself from a position of such inexperience. I'd say it was the ignorance of youth, but I know plenty of younger people who don't behave that way. Bizarre.


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## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> I mean it's full contact sparring (eventually). I have no real interest in it. I am too pretty!



So you intend to reach black belt without ever sparring contact. Are you sure you actually do TKD?

What kind of black belt will you be then??


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## Tez3

Gnarlie said:


> What kind of black belt will you be then??



A keyboard warrior?


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## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> I just can't grasp how someone can be so judgmental, opinionated and sure of himself from a position of such inexperience. I'd say it was the ignorance of youth, but I know plenty of younger people who don't behave that way. Bizarre.



You haven't been to my class. You are the ignorant one. Again; I don't need to be able to do it, for me to ynderstand how' it's supposed to done (theory). Just as there are sports commentators that aren't actually capable of the sports their experts on. There is no conflict. I do know how to kick basic kicks at all heights, but it doesn't matter.



Gnarlie said:


> So you intend to reach black belt without ever sparring contact. Are you sure you actually do TKD?
> 
> What kind of black belt will you be then??



TKD is light contact. Barely any contact.


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## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> TKD is light contact. Barely any contact.



Oh you are absolutely correct, barely any contact at all.


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## Laplace_demon

ITF TKD is light contact. You are penalised for knockouts.


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## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> You haven't been to my class. You are the ignorant one. Again; I don't need to be able to do it, for me to ynderstand how' it's supposed to done (theory). Just as there are sports commentators that aren't actually capable of the sports their experts on. There is no conflict. I do know how to kick basic kicks at all heights, but it doesn't matter.
> 
> 
> 
> TKD is light contact. Barely any contact.



I'm not talking about technical or theoretical proficiency, I'm talking about your attitude.

If you think TKD is light contact, whether ITF or WTF, you clearly have zero experience. Talk to us after you've competed. Until then, I would avoid saying more as you are just digging yourself a bigger and bigger hole here.


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## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> I'm not talking about technical or theoretical proficiency, I'm talking about your attitude.
> 
> If you think TKD is light contact, whether ITF or WTF, you clearly have zero experience. Talk to us after you've competed. Until then, I would avoid saying more as you are just digging yourself a bigger and bigger hole here.



ITF rule stipulations are defined as light contact. There are few ITF tournaments in eastern europe having full contact, that have absolutely no bearing on anything else.


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## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> ITF rule stipulations are defined as light contact. There are few ITF tournaments in eastern europe having full contact, that have absolutely no bearing on anything else.



As I said, talk to us after you compete. Things have a habit of escalating, especially up around national level.

You're really showing how little you know now.


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## Tony Dismukes

Laplace_demon said:


> You are right in the sense that my eventual black belt will have no significance. I know already it doesn't take any skill in my school to get it, besides a pulse.  I happen to like TKD, and don't seek to get my head smashed in with boxers and kickboxers, nor do I like Karate training.



Honestly, the question of rank standards isn't really an important issue, from my perspective. What I do care about is _learning_. If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't care much whether the instructor promoted everybody with a pulse or only a select few. What I would care about is whether he did an effective job of teaching the material. If it's true that the majority of students who have been there for years have a very poor grasp of the fundamentals, then that's not good regardless of what color belt they wear. It would mean that the instructor is not teaching effectively. If the instructor is not teaching effectively, then you will probably not learn much of value, no matter your rank.



Laplace_demon said:


> TKD is light contact. Barely any contact.



That may be true of some TKD schools, but I have a feeling you're about to hear from a bunch of experienced TKD practitioners who have done plenty of hard-contact training.


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## Tez3

Gnarlie said:


> *As I said, talk to us after you compete.* Things have a habit of escalating, especially up around national level.
> 
> You're really showing how little you know now.



Do they have children's comps in TKD?


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## jks9199

Thread locked.  

jks9199
Administrator


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