# Why do many traditional martial artists look down on weighlifting (some even calling it EASY)?



## Bullshidog (Feb 26, 2015)

I notice there is a stigma in among traditional martial artists that weightlifting is useless and that its the easiest method of strength training. This is particularly true from styles that focus focusing on cardio, technique, all-round body strength and/or flexibility such as Tae Kwon Do and Silat, Not only do many traditional styles belief believe pushups and other non-weight lifting exercises are much tougher than lifting weights but lifting weights is so DAMN easy! In their logic "sit down and simply lift the repetitions as much as you want. GET TIRED? Just wait a few minutes than continue again!" 

As someone who recently started weightlifting, I'm telling you its ******* HARD WORK. My arms are still sore simply from lifting. Not as breath gasping as say 10 pullups but its ******* tiring enough to be sore and thirsty after a session. 

Even popular media depicts weightlifting as being incredibly easy and a popular trope is the skinny nerdy boy who gets bullied daily going into a a gym and in a few weeks or even days later they are muscular enough to KO their bullies in one hit! 

I can tell you some of the muscular guys I met at the gym told me it too them MONTHS if not YEARS to get their body so it isn't simple as going to the gym every day either. They told me if you want to build muscles eventually you would have to push yourself. 

I can't tell you how many TMA masters I met who state to weightlifting is nowhere as difficult as some of the warmups done before practising techniques such as the stretching and crawling exercises. While I definitely agree stuff they do like break bricks are probably much tougher than weightlifting, some of the stuff they do like stretches are easier than weightlifting (assuming you are conditioned in both exercises).

The reason I post this thread is because in MMA weightlifting is now such an accepted part of training that even in Asia you won't find people who will train without incorporating dumbells and other weightlifting  tolls in their exercises. Even Asian fighters who started with styles that are often grouped under "TMA" such as Yoshiro Akiyama (a dedicated Judo artist IIRC) will use multi-station machines and weight benches and other lifting machines generally looked down upon if not outright forbidden by old masters of TMAs. Indeed the use of weightlifting equipment is one of the things that traditional masters have against MMA and I seen more than enough complains about how MMA fighters are neglecting the old proper way to build real strength such as stretching,crawling and other warmup exercises,etc.

I am curious about all this. I have read some TMAs like Kyokushin and some of the older masters such as Mas Oyama advocated weightlifting style training. Although they didn't use modern weightlifting equipment like Barbells a lot of their exercises are not only similar in principle to using dumbells  but almost look exactly the same (in some cases even moved the same way) such as carrying two buckets of water to another town or chopping trees with an axe and other manual labors.


I'm getting more into boxing territory but the same thing is argued in the boxing world whether modern boxers are inferior due to weightlifting while old school did actual manual labor for training like carrying wood while walking at a mill. These 2 posts (which emphasize many of the old ATGs of boxing's manual labor USED the same principle as weightlifting and aside from not using modern equipment technically qualifies as WEIGHTLIFTING).


Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums - View Single Post - Is Weight training really needed in boxing 

Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums - View Single Post - Is Weight training really needed in boxing 

(The first link is a response to the second link which quotes a previous posts that argue that old boxers not only did exercises that basically shares the same principles as modern weightlifting techniques and equipment but that the old school boxers SHARED the same physical build and brute strength of weightlifters and bodybuilders of their time. Be sure to READ both posts including the quoted message in the second one as it clarifies what I am saying).

I am curious why all this? Especially when many TMAs and old masters emphasize manual labor and exercises that would of build similar physical bodies and strength of modern weightlifters?


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## Marnetmar (Feb 26, 2015)

I'm guessing that it has something to do with the traditional cultures/medicines from where most of these TMAs originated. They probably figured that manual labor was somehow more "natural" than weight lifting in some way, that weight lifting built up too much of a certain amount of chi in the body, etc, and those ideas ended up being passed down to today's generation despite being discredited.


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## Spinedoc (Feb 26, 2015)

I can't speak for all traditional martial arts, but in Aikido, you don't need nor want big muscles. I care way more about flexibility than strength. Then again, I'm built like an NFL linebacker already, and really don't need any more mass, I'm trying to get smaller and more flexible. I don't lift weights at all, but the military background (which was "gasp" calisthenics-not weightlifting) made me strong enough that many times when I practice with yudansha they comment that I am incredibly strong, and then proceed to throw me all over despite that...LOL. My point is....many of us might not care about becoming stronger. Each individual has their own goals, each art, their own objectives.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 26, 2015)

Bullshidog said:


> I notice there is a stigma in among traditional martial artists that weightlifting is useless and that its the easiest method of strength training.


I'm not sure I've ever had a TMA practitioner tell me that weight lifting is useless. I'm definitely sure I've never had one tell me that it's easy.



Bullshidog said:


> Even popular media depicts weightlifting as being incredibly easy and a popular trope is the skinny nerdy boy who gets bullied daily going into a a gym and in a few weeks or even days later they are muscular enough to KO their bullies in one hit!



When you have to improve really fast, you need a montage.


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## Tez3 (Feb 26, 2015)

Bullshidog said:


> I can't tell you how many TMA masters I met who state to weightlifting is nowhere as difficult as some of the warmups done before practising techniques such as the stretching and crawling exercises



Perhaps you could tell us who these people are that say this? You could also give some legitimate ie  citable examples of what they are saying, it's hard to argue from any point of view when it's just you telling us that TMA people look down on weight lifting when I know a great many who either do lift or don't think about it at all let alone look down on it.


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## yak sao (Feb 26, 2015)

I would say that it depends on the approach to weightlifting you take.

From a MA standpoint, it is better to work on exercises that involve as many joints/muscle groups as possible (ie. squats, woodchoppers, etc) so that you are building whole body strength/unity, rather than taking a body building approach and isolating muscle groups ( bicep curls, tricep kickbacks.....).


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## elder999 (Feb 26, 2015)

Bullshidog said:


> I notice there is a stigma in among traditional martial artists that weightlifting is useless and that its the easiest method of strength training. This is particularly true from styles that focus focusing on cardio, technique, all-round body strength and/or flexibility such as Tae Kwon Do and Silat, Not only do many traditional styles belief believe pushups and other non-weight lifting exercises are much tougher than lifting weights but lifting weights is so DAMN easy! In their logic "sit down and simply lift the repetitions as much as you want. GET TIRED? Just wait a few minutes than continue again!"



I started as a "traditional" martial artist, back in the days when dinosaurs like me roamed the earth freely.

Seriously-like 1971.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





The only thing I ever heard against weightlifting was the (incorrect) notion that it would reduce flexibility. I was never told not to, and all of the places I trained had some form of weights, actually.

with that said....



Bullshidog said:


> I can't tell you how many TMA masters I met who state to weightlifting is nowhere as difficult as some of the warmups done before practising techniques such as the stretching and crawling exercises.



How about just telling us how many "TMA masters" you've _met_, and who they are?




Bullshidog said:


> The reason I post this thread is because in MMA weightlifting is now such an accepted part of training that even in Asia you won't find people who will train without incorporating dumbells and other weightlifting  tolls in their exercises.



Oddly enough, even when I was in Asia, before the advent of what's now called "MMA" becoming mainstream, there weren't a lot of people who weren't incorporating weight training

Even girls.I can't find the image, but there are females shown weightlifting in the training section of one of Oyama's books-from back in the 60's.

Here's a review of Donn Drager's judo training book, _Judo Training Methods,_ published in 1962. It also included a great deal of weight training.

Here's a photo from Masahiko Kimura's _My Judo,_-you know, the guy who beat Helio Gracie with _ude gurami_ ?








.



Bullshidog said:


> I have read some TMAs like Kyokushin and some of the older masters such as Mas Oyama advocated weightlifting style training. Although they didn't use modern weightlifting equipment like Barbells a



Actually, they used barbells.I don't really know what you're talking about, and, apparently, neither do you.....

Here's Gogen Yamaguchi, lifting weights in Manchuria, some time between 1938 and 1945:





Here's Mas Oyama, back in the late 50's:


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## BeeBrian (Feb 26, 2015)

I'm not sure why a lot of traditional martial artists don't like lifting.

All I can say is this...

Weightlifting (the real Squatty kind, not the Curly kind) will make you a better fighter.

Expection to the rule: You are already so strong that getting stronger is useless...



It's basic logic. It's so logical to lift weights that any strength-based athlete will be a complete moron not to do it.

If you're so strong that clinching an enemy requires you to put forth only 50% max effort, you will not tire as easily as someone who has to put forth 100% effort no matter how high-endurance he or she is.

Strength is the foundation of speed.

Strength is the foundation of endurance.

Strength is the foundation of an injury-free body.

Strength is the most trainable aspect of athleticism.



What goes wrong is when fighters spend more time lifting weights than they do developing their fighting skills. If that is the case, then yes, strength-training becomes too much.


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## yak sao (Feb 26, 2015)

elder999 said:


> I started as a "traditional" martial artist, back in the days when dinosaurs like me roamed the earth freely.
> 
> Seriously-like 1971.
> 
> ...



Don't confuse the discussion with facts


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## drop bear (Feb 26, 2015)

elder999 said:


> I started as a "traditional" martial artist, back in the days when dinosaurs like me roamed the earth freely.
> 
> Seriously-like 1971.
> 
> ...



Those guys actually fought people?

I mean give it a few generations of not fighting people and you may find the emphasis changes a bit.


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## elder999 (Feb 26, 2015)

[QUOTEdrop bear, post: 1690644, member: 32080"]Those guys actually fought people?

I mean give it a few generations of not fighting people and you may find the emphasis changes a bit.[/QUOTE]
Yes.YES, we did.....


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## elder999 (Feb 26, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Those guys actually fought people?
> 
> I mean give it a few generations of not fighting people and you may find the emphasis changes a bit.


Yeah, we did  We actually fought people..


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## qianfeng (Feb 27, 2015)

Who were the traditional masters you met? Old traditional masters did do weight lifting.





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## qianfeng (Feb 27, 2015)

Apperently it doesnt want to show my pictures. The two ones that arent showing is this. Its photo of Wang Zi Ping a famous martial artist in 20th century China. He was famed along with Cai Long Yun and a few other guys for defeating western boxers in Shang Hai
http://wfwb.wfnews.com.cn/IMAGE/201...b.wfnews.com.cn/IMAGE/20111204/18/18_1427.jpg


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## elder999 (Feb 27, 2015)

qianfeng said:


> Apperently it doesnt want to show my pictures. The two ones that arent showing is this. Its photo of Wang Zi Ping a famous martial artist in 20th century China. He was famed along with Cai Long Yun and a few other guys for defeating western boxers in Shang Hai
> http://wfwb.wfnews.com.cn/IMAGE/201...b.wfnews.com.cn/IMAGE/20111204/18/18_1427.jpg


Heh. The stone lock has been part of traditional Chinese Gung fu training since the Han dynasty (205-220 AD)




Here's some martial arts performers in Manchiria, around 1911....notice the barbell....Fred Flinstonish as it is...





Strength training, including weight training, was always a part of old-time martial arts: Okinawan karate, Japanese karate, Chinese gung fu, judo, etc.....whoever says otherwise clearly doesn't have the slightest idea what they're talking about.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 27, 2015)

In a way, martial arts and weight lifting are the same thing, but if I see a big guy, I watch how he moves, not for the bumps on his arms. I do, however, look for the bumpy legs. Those guys are scary.


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## kuniggety (Feb 27, 2015)

I strength train. Being a military guy, like the poster before, most of what we do is calisthenics. Calisthenics build functional strength and improve overall health. I strength train too because, well, it makes you stronger. How being stronger and healthier would ever be bad for you in martial arts, I don't have a clue.


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## Zero (Feb 27, 2015)

Never had this in TMA where it was bad mouthed or derided by a sifu or master. 

I did wing chun for 2 years alongside karate at a phase when I had been doing a lot of body building for aesthetic reasons but also power lifting and strength work for athletic ability and some of the seniors/black shirts in the class would come up to me and say to chuck in the weights as I was too big for some of the techniques and moves.  I would agree that my chest size did make it very hard to do a great pak sau and certain techniques so in that respect they were right.  But no one said it would make me "a worse fighter".  I would note the sifu himself never actually said give it up and funnily enough the sifu, a chap in his late 50s was in the most muscular shape of all the seniors.  Even if just using traditional and body weight exercises, I could tell he had done quite a bit of strength and conditioning work...


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 27, 2015)

Bullshidog said:


> I notice there is a stigma in among traditional martial artists that weightlifting is useless and that its the easiest method of strength training.



Then you were looking in the wrong places.

Here is the thing, weights are expensive and not always training the motion you want or need for your chosen martial art. So the weights you see in TMA, particularly in the old days are not so much weights but common everyday things, such as clay pots full of things, bricks and stones, keys or homemade barbells, hammers, dumbbells. There are also "weights" that are specialized for the training like iron rings. And some of those weapons they tossed around int the old days were rather heavy, some closing in on 100lbs











Specialized weights






You want to see a bunch of martial artists using weights, look at Shuaijiao training in China






There is a lot of weight training in TMA, it just doesn't look like what  your use to seeing. They tend not to work in isolation for definition. They tend to work on function for strength.


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## Tez3 (Feb 27, 2015)

I thought I'd Google for martial arts and weight lifting just to see what is out there. the result was thousands of books, articles and sites saying how good it is for martial arts, recommendations for weights, training programmes galore. Many martial artists from all styles and some well known other not so recommending weights. A couple of articles suggesting it's not so good for some styles but the vast majority are martial artists who recommend weight training of some kind, depending on what you have access to or have to hand, for martial arts which puts the OPs assertion that the majority don't recommend it to the question.
I also found this which amused me a little, who knew martial arts was good training for cellists?
Weight Lifting and Martial Arts for the Cello


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 27, 2015)




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## tkdwarrior (Feb 27, 2015)

Because they are ill-informed.


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## Tez3 (Feb 27, 2015)

tkdwarrior said:


> Because they are ill-informed.



But who are 'they'? The OP hasn't given us anything as to who these people are, what they are actually saying and why they are saying it. All the evidence so far is showing that there aren't people who are saying weightlifting is bad and that they are looking down on it, quite the contrary.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 27, 2015)




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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 27, 2015)

Almost all of the TMA people I know lift weights and do calisthenics.  Curious who told you this?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 27, 2015)

Bullshidog said:


> I notice there is a stigma in among traditional martial artists that weightlifting is useless.


- My teacher told me that when he was a student at his teacher's place, there was a double heads weight bar in his teacher's back yard that was so heavy that every time he looked at it, he hated it big time.
- I have a huge rock beside my drive way that I used to move around with. Today when I look at it, I also hate it big time.

IMO, if the weight is too much that you start to hate it, it's not a good idea. It's better to work on the right amount of weight that you feel comfortable with and "enjoy" doing it. This way, you will continue your weight training through your old age.

There is no way that a MA guy can have a body like this without going through some serious weight training.


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## elder999 (Feb 27, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - My teacher told me that when he was a student at his teacher's place, there was a double heads weight bar in his teacher's back yard that was so heavy that every time he looked at it, he hated it big time.
> - I have a huge rock beside my drive way that I used to move around with. Today when I look at it, I also hate it big time.
> 
> IMO, if the weight is too much that you start to hate it, it's not a good idea. It's better to work on the right amount of weight that you feel comfortable with and "enjoy" doing it. This way, you will continue your weight training through your old age.
> ...


Great Grandmaster Chang had a lot of strength exercises-a lot of them with weights, though I couldn't find any pictures of him lifting online. Always grateful to him for the grip/forearm-training tool he showed me, and the way he showed me I'd made it wrong!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




(He'd take  of twigs, each about 1/4" in diameter and a little more than a foot long, bundle then until they were somewhere between 4 and 6" in diameter, tape both ends, and take that bundle in hands and twist it back in forth. I brought him the one I made, and with one twist: toothpicks!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That was one very cool old-man! )


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## WaterGal (Feb 28, 2015)

I'm gonna agree with some of the other posters - I haven't heard TMA people say weightlifting is easy or bad. I have heard people say that you shouldn't do it too much for TKD and similar arts because it can reduce flexibility.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 28, 2015)

elder999 said:


> (He'd take  of twigs, each about 1/4" in diameter and a little more than a foot long, bundle then until they were somewhere between 4 and 6" in diameter, tape both ends, and take that bundle in hands and twist it back in forth.


Here is a clip.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 28, 2015)

and the OP never returned.....


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 16, 2015)

yak sao said:


> I would say that it depends on the approach to weightlifting you take.
> 
> From a MA standpoint, it is better to work on exercises that involve as many joints/muscle groups as possible (ie. squats, woodchoppers, etc) so that you are building whole body strength/unity, rather than taking a body building approach and isolating muscle groups ( bicep curls, tricep kickbacks.....).


|
I agree with this philosophy.
|
Weight training can make you much stronger, hence much more effective in a physical, external musculature sense.  A pro-am weightlifter can make a very dangerous opponent for this VERY reason.
|
OTOH, TMA, traditional karate is after something else than the kind of mass, moving muscular power.  This is why I can break several pine boards instantly from a relaxed position, while basically the remainder of my school does the typical positioning, warmup, windup, heavy muscular action, need to recover.  A few aren't that bad......[smiley]
|
Most karateka think this ability is KIME, when it's more accurately what Ed Parker simply called CONTROL.
|
btw: your post is why Wing Chun critics are all wet.............


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 16, 2015)

ALTERNATIVES:
|
Looking back over the posts, clearly weight training has been in the history of TMA.
|
To what extent it is or should be a part of the curriculum is the question.  I believe weight training is more of an option to the core TMA program.  An alternative to increase the intensity and related benefit in that area....


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2015)

Here is another ancient CMA weight training method.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 17, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here is another ancient CMA weight training method.


|
What's in the text?  I'll bet there's a story there!!!!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> What's in the text?  I'll bet there's a story there!!!!


The text describes how to "train" with that equipment. That book has been translated in English.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 17, 2015)

weight training helps promote muscle growth, circulation, strength and sometimes flexibility so why not do it? As for it being easy well, I would think it is as hard or easy as one makes it


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## dboeren (Mar 17, 2015)

It may be "easy" in the sense that it's not a complex movement compared to martial arts (although there is still a correct form to various weightlifting techniques, but that doesn't equate to being "easy" in the sense that it takes little effort.  Go over there and pick up that 300 pound barbell over your head.  Put it down.  Do it 5 or 6 more times.  Is that easy?  Simple to describe doesn't mean simple to perform.

That said, I am just getting started back into martial arts after a long absence and I'm supplementing my class training with dumbbells, kettlebell, and cardio on an elliptical trainer at home.  Not trying to overdo it, I just like some variety.


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## Tez3 (Mar 17, 2015)

dboeren said:


> Do it 5 or 6 more times. Is that easy?



Yes it was very easy and when I'm out of hospital, had the hernias fixed, the back cricked back into shape, the stitches out of my head and the dislocated shoulders are back in place I may do it all again...not! 

Good post and welcome to MT.


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## Jenna (Mar 17, 2015)

I am happy to be a dissenting voice.. I do not do weight training.. have never seriously done any weight training.. For me increases in muscle mass perturb my sensitivity.. this was my experience.. so I do not do it.. Why should I??  Where in my art does it prescribe weight and resistance training as requisites of good practice?  Where in yours - those that practise weight training- does your art suggest or recommend??

I want to ask what is wrong with you as a practitioner of your art just as you are?  You are saying that before you lift weights and gain strength you are not good enough??  Your art disapproves of your lack???

I fail to understand how time spent perfecting technique will be trumped by time spent swinging kettlebells.. 

Most practitioners seem to train weights.. I think that is the orthodoxy.. or maybe it is the fashion.. I practice Aikido.. I know plenty therein who also are gym rats.. Each to their own.. Weights for its own sake no problem and but I just do not understand why it is NECESSARY for your MA?

Aikido and Judo - Interview with Gozo Shioda and Masahiko Kimura

Interviewer: Shioda sensei, were you doing some special kind of conditioning?

Shioda: No – in Aikido, in order not to create stagnation in the body, you mustn’t build up your muscles. However, I didn’t understand that when I was young, so I would hide from Ueshiba sensei and lift weights. When he found out I’d really get scolded. Of course it’s natural to want to make your body strong when you’re young, and logic comes later. Anyway, you should just train as much as you can. I trained everyday from five in the morning until nine at night! I think that kind of period is important to have when you’re young


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## geezer (Mar 17, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I am happy to be a dissenting voice.. I do not do weight training.. have never seriously done any weight training.. For me increases in muscle mass perturb my sensitivity..


 
"_Perturb_ your sensitivity" ? I find that hillarious!  ...Oh, and I totally understand. I got really into lifting for a while and, even though I was loathe to admit it, it messed with ...no, it_ perturbed _ my chi sau -- a Wing Chun training exercise that demands a high level of sensitivity and responsiveness.



Jenna said:


> Shioda: No – in Aikido, in order not to create stagnation in the body, you mustn’t build up your muscles. However, I didn’t understand that when I was young, so I would hide from Ueshiba sensei and lift weights. When he found out I’d really get scolded. Of course it’s natural to want to make your body strong when you’re young, and logic comes later. Anyway, you should just train as much as you can. I trained everyday from five in the morning until nine at night! I think that kind of period is important to have when you’re young


 
This was pretty much what my old Chinese sifu said about body-building and Wing Chun. It can really get in the way of reaching the highest levels of skill. On the other hand, if you are going to fight, it absolutely helps to be strong. This guy was one of the fighters in our system. Of course, he _never  _ touched weights.


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## Tez3 (Mar 17, 2015)

geezer said:


> "_Perturb_ your sensitivity" ? I find that hillarious!  ...Oh, and I totally understand. I got really into lifting for a while and, even though I was loathe to admit it, it messed with ...no, it_ perturbed _ my chi sau -- a Wing Chun training exercise that demands a high level of sisitivity and responsiveness.
> 
> 
> 
> This was pretty much what my old Chinese sifu said about body-building and Wing Chun. It can really get in the way of reaching the highest levels of skill. On the other hand, if you are going to fight, it absolutely helps to be strong. This guy was one of the fighters in our system. Of course, he _never  _ touched weights.




Is he single?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I just do not understand why it is NECESSARY for your MA?


Old Chinese saying said, "Strength count for 10 best techniques." When you get old, you will lose your bone density. You will have no choice but to work on weight. Also there are some skills that require special muscle development. The proper weight equipment is the the "only" way to develop those skills. The weight training can "enhance" your skill.


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## geezer (Mar 17, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Is he single?



Forget it Tez. That's a really old picture. That was then:






He looks more like this now:







Besides, didn't you tell us that you are already married to a hunky military officer?

BTW your new avatar --that grumpy-looking cat is perfect. It reflects the inner you. Love it!


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## Shai Hulud (Mar 17, 2015)

I could stat citing a few of the sillier myths martial artists sometimes believe with regard to weight training, like how it slows you down, or leads you to rely more on strength than technique, that sort of thing.

Personally, I don't really mind how people choose to train in their styles. Their form of self-expression, not mine. Stoic as that may be however, ultimately it boils down to what we want out of our art. 

People with more conservative views on the MA's (perhaps TMA's), or those just looking for a simple hobby, I'd understand if they couldn't be bothered to deal with it. For others though, such as myself, I want solid dividends from my practice in the form of self-defense skills and advanced level of fitness. Many people from both camps. I just don't like imposing on others.


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## qianfeng (Mar 18, 2015)

Chinese saying: 一力破十巧, One strengths breaks 10 skill


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## Tez3 (Mar 18, 2015)

geezer said:


> Forget it Tez. That's a really old picture. That was then:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ah age catches us all up eventually.

My avatar is me channelling my inner grumpy cat. 
I find as one gets older one gets a sense that one is not going to be around for ever, husband's heart attack a few weeks ago confirms this ( he's ok now, just grumpy like me ) that time is increasingly precious and life is too short to read unintelligible English, macho posturing and 'look aren't I great' posts


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 18, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Ah age catches us all up eventually.
> 
> My avatar is me channelling my inner grumpy cat.
> I find as one gets older one gets a sense that one is not going to be around for ever, husband's heart attack a few weeks ago confirms this ( he's ok now, just grumpy like me ) that time is increasingly precious and life is too short to read unintelligible English, macho posturing and 'look aren't I great' posts



Well then, based on that my Avatar should probably be


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 18, 2015)

Mine might be some thing like this then....  Yes, with the open mouth and fangs all a blazing.


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## Tgace (Mar 18, 2015)

Since what I do for a living entails a lot of surveillance and "swooping" down on people I'd probably be..


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## 23rdwave (Mar 22, 2015)

Catch wrestler Karl Gotch's favorite workout was known as Gotch's Bible.

You take a deck of cards.. leave two Jokers in..
Shuffle really good..

Black cards are squats and red cards are push-ups.

Every time you deal a black card, you do twice the amount of repetitions as the face value of the dealt card. This means, if you get a black 8, you do 16 squats. If you get a black Ace, you do 22 squats.

Spades are regular Hindu Squats, Clubs are Jumper Squats.

The first Joker you pull means you do 40 hindu-squats consecutively.

Every time you get a red card, you do push-ups. This time you do the actual value of the face card. If you get a red 8, you do 8 push-ups. If you get a red Ace, you do 11 push-ups.

Diamonds are regular Hindu Push-Ups, Hearts are 1/2 Moon Push-Ups. 
The second Joker you pull means you do 20 push-ups consecutively.

Work your way up to completing a deck or keep track of the time it takes you to do a deck.
Then do a wrestler's bridge with the best form possible try to hold it for as long as three minutes.

Karl would do 2 decks back to back, iirc.


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## Tez3 (Mar 23, 2015)

23rdwave said:


> You take a deck of cards..



I've heard of people doing this before.


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## Shai Hulud (Mar 23, 2015)

23rdwave said:


> Catch wrestler Karl Gotch's favorite workout was known as Gotch's Bible.
> 
> You take a deck of cards.. leave two Jokers in..
> Shuffle really good..
> ...





Tez3 said:


> I've heard of people doing this before.


Sounded so edgy I just gave it a shot. Everything hurts. I have a few hours to recover before class later. Bollocks, this.


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## Tez3 (Mar 23, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> Sounded so edgy I just gave it a shot. Everything hurts. I have a few hours to recover before class later. Bollocks, this.




Oh dear, I've only _heard _of people doing it, never tried it, sounds like I was right! Hope you recover soon!


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## crazydiamond (May 27, 2015)

For some from the outside - everything seems not too hard until the try it.  I mean I lift a far amount - but the calisthenics (body weight) exercises work you slightly differently than iron and I appreciate both. Also many people say yoga "is easy" and a girls thing - and I can tell you it wipe you out. But I still hate jogging...  its hard for me as a big guy, but necessary for endurance in MA class.

Our instructors like to include various conditioning work before class. Including the Tabbata stuff that is all the rage these days.

You benefit from Multiple exercise types in MA.


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## PhotonGuy (May 27, 2015)

Bullshidog said:


> Even popular media depicts weightlifting as being incredibly easy and a popular trope is the skinny nerdy boy who gets bullied daily going into a a gym and in a few weeks or even days later they are muscular enough to KO their bullies in one hit!


In that case weightlifting is depicted as being effective, and it is if done properly but from years of weightlifting experience I can tell you it is not easy. With weightlifting, your body really takes a pounding. I would say weightlifting is one of those activities where you take lots of punishment.


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## Tgace (May 27, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> In that case weightlifting is depicted as being effective, and it is if done properly but from years of weightlifting experience I can tell you it is not easy. With weightlifting, your body really takes a pounding. I would say weightlifting is one of those activities where you take lots of punishment.


That really depends on your program...


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## Hanzou (May 27, 2015)

Bullshidog said:


> I am curious why all this? Especially when many TMAs and old masters emphasize manual labor and exercises that would of build similar physical bodies and strength of modern weightlifters?


Because strength is an advantage, and at higher levels, strength can overcome skill. You also have beta males who never played sports, never got to go to the big dance with the pretty girl, or got bullied heavily (which is probably why they started taking martial arts in the first place). Thus, they tend to resent larger, stronger men.


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## Langenschwert (May 27, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I've heard of people doing this before.



We do similar things in our club. We rotate the exercises that the cards represent from class to class. Face cards are 10 reps, all others the number on the card. If an ace is drawn, you double the next card. If a Joker is drawn, you triple the next card. There's nothing quite like an ace, followed by a Joker, followed by a face card. We've had that happen a few times. Good fun!


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## Milo of Croton (Sep 11, 2015)

Maybe the traditions/societies in which these TMA's developed didn't recognize weightlifting? I certainly wouldn't call it easy. I have seen people get sidetracked by weightlifting though, as if the mere fact of just being able to lift heavier would help them in their chosen art. The strength has to be technique-specific and applied for it to matter.

That's all I'm about to say though. I train with nothing but calisthenics and isometrics.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2015)

Bullshidog said:


> notice there is a stigma in among traditional martial artists that weightlifting is useless and that its the easiest method of strength training.


 I think it's more of an issue about function strength than about weightlifting.  The new thing these days with weight lifting is centered around functional strength. Many people who body build lack functional strength. Functional strength is what you need in order to be stronger physically in martial arts.
This is a perfect example of functional strength vs "body building strength" I believe this is what the traditional artist is referring to. The shaking in his arms and wrists highlights where the weak muscles are.  The difference between the old traditional martial artist and modern bodybuilders is that the body builders don't train for functional use as much as they do for bulking up.


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## ShotoNoob (Sep 11, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I fail to understand how time spent perfecting technique will be trumped by time spent swinging kettlebells..
> 
> Aikido and Judo - Interview with Gozo Shioda and Masahiko Kimura
> 
> ...


|
Aikido proper is a pure internal art.  All the musculature development is meant to develop & support maximum, then optimum action from ki power.  Weight lifting is in the least superfluous & in the worst detrimental to damaging against that ideal.  Exercise of the natural body in tandem with traditional Aikido practices can produce of the physical strength required...
\
The reason  you never see Aikido in MMA is that it's about the most difficult traditional martial art style to master.  We've got loads of MT posts, posters on about Aikido &  I seriously doubt they are doing the true art....


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## Tez3 (Sep 12, 2015)

I wonder when people are actually going to get the idea of what MMA actually is and stop expecting to see individual arts in it? It's mixed, it says so in the title, you may see a quick flash of Aiki, of TKD of karate but it's been mixed up to make a whole fighting system, stop expecting fighters to be using each art singly. A three minute round fight doesn't start with a fighter 'doing' 30 secs of TKD followed by 30 sec of BJJ followed by 30 sec of karate followed by......... You won't be able to specifically pick out techniques always, sometimes you can identify a kick or a ground move but really stop seeing it as individual styles and start seeing it as MMA. So yes you may well see something from Aiki but it will be used quickly, as pat of a whole along with other techniques from other styles.
The thing is ...we mix it up...that's why the argument X style isn't in MMA or you can't use Y style is a nonsense, if a fighter can use a technique it will be in the mix wherever it comes from.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 12, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Aikido proper is a pure internal art.  All the musculature development is meant to develop & support maximum, then optimum action from ki power.  Weight lifting is in the least superfluous & in the worst detrimental to damaging against that ideal.  Exercise of the natural body in tandem with traditional Aikido practices can produce of the physical strength required...
> \
> The reason  you never see Aikido in MMA is that it's about the most difficult traditional martial art style to master.  We've got loads of MT posts, posters on about Aikido &  I seriously doubt they are doing the true art....



Thing about internal arts and weightlifting, not Aikido, but internal, Chen Xiaowang (Chen Taijiquan) would to agree with you. Per Chen Xiaowang, weightlifting is fine once you have developed unity between upper and lower it can actually be helpful. However prior to that it can  be detrimental


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## Hanzou (Sep 12, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I wonder when people are actually going to get the idea of what MMA actually is and stop expecting to see individual arts in it? It's mixed, it says so in the title, you may see a quick flash of Aiki, of TKD of karate but it's been mixed up to make a whole fighting system, stop expecting fighters to be using each art singly. A three minute round fight doesn't start with a fighter 'doing' 30 secs of TKD followed by 30 sec of BJJ followed by 30 sec of karate followed by......... You won't be able to specifically pick out techniques always, sometimes you can identify a kick or a ground move but really stop seeing it as individual styles and start seeing it as MMA. So yes you may well see something from Aiki but it will be used quickly, as pat of a whole along with other techniques from other styles.
> The thing is ...we mix it up...that's why the argument X style isn't in MMA or you can't use Y style is a nonsense, if a fighter can use a technique it will be in the mix wherever it comes from.



However, we do still see very clear examples of individual arts within MMA. For example, we still see Bjj exponents performing very clear Bjj techniques. Ronda Rousey is performing very clear Judo techniques within MMA. A spinning back kick from TKD, a clinch and knee combo from Muay Thai, or a leg kick from Kyokushin, are all examples of individual arts, and we're still seeing them all the time.

After almost 25 years, I think its time to simply admit that some styles simply aren't designed for fighting.


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## Tez3 (Sep 12, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> However, we do still see very clear examples of individual arts within MMA. For example, we still see Bjj exponents performing very clear Bjj techniques. Ronda Rousey is performing very clear Judo techniques within MMA. A spinning back kick from TKD, a clinch and knee combo from Muay Thai, or a leg kick from Kyokushin, are all examples of individual arts, and we're still seeing them all the time.
> 
> After almost 25 years, I think its time to simply admit that some styles simply aren't designed for fighting.



I did say that sometimes you see techniques from some styles but again you miss the point, you are still talking about whole styles. and just because _you don't recognise_ something doesn't mean it's not there.  Or perhaps some people just don't see things because they don't want to.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 12, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Thing about internal arts and weightlifting, not Aikido, but internal, Chen Xiaowang (Chen Taijiquan) would to agree with you. Per Chen Xiaowang, weightlifting is fine once you have developed unity between upper and lower it can actually be helpful. However prior to that it can  be detrimental



post #63 Edit

Sorry, I am not into quoting me, but apparently my fingers is stupid and my proof reading is not much better, and of course I waited to long so I could not edit it.....here is what it was supposed to say

_Thing about internal arts and weightlifting, not Aikido but internal, Chen Xiaowang (Chen Taijiquan) would *not* agree with you. Per Chen Xiaowang, weightlifting is fine once you have developed unity between upper and lower it can actually be helpful. However prior to that it can  be detrimental._

You may now return to your regularly scheduled thread


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## Hanzou (Sep 12, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I did say that sometimes you see techniques from some styles but again you miss the point, you are still talking about whole styles. and just because _you don't recognise_ something doesn't mean it's not there.  Or perhaps some people just don't see things because they don't want to.



But again, you do see whole styles in MMA. Rousey was clearly utilizing her Judo background in her early MMA fights, and Ryan Hall was very clearly using Bjj in his qualifying fight in TUF. Are we ever going to see a guy entering the UFC using Aikido in a similar fashion?

If not, why?


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2015)

crazydiamond said:


> For some from the outside - everything seems not too hard until the try it.  I mean I lift a far amount - but the calisthenics (body weight) exercises work you slightly differently than iron and I appreciate both. Also many people say yoga "is easy" and a girls thing - and I can tell you it wipe you out. But I still hate jogging...  its hard for me as a big guy, but necessary for endurance in MA class.
> 
> Our instructors like to include various conditioning work before class. Including the Tabbata stuff that is all the rage these days.
> 
> You benefit from Multiple exercise types in MA.


"Yoga is easy" is one of the things I had to learn the hard way.


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## ShotoNoob (Sep 12, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Thing about internal arts and weightlifting, not Aikido, but internal, Chen Xiaowang (Chen Taijiquan) would to agree with you. Per Chen Xiaowang, weightlifting is fine once you have developed unity between upper and lower it can actually be helpful. However prior to that it can  be detrimental


\
Thanks Xue.  From a general perspective, I train an 'externally-oriented' art.  So internals is more of a mystery to me.  Nonetheless.  The internal strength is developed by the modern traditional karates, and is explicitly a base ability in them, as in all TMA.
\
My knowledge of tai chi, like internal arts, is that while muscular development occurs from the nature of the exercises, it is really the cultivation of chi and how chi conditions the bodily organs & structure internally that gives rise to its great, in a sense, physically unstoppable power....  way too difficult for me.
\
At the same time, the heavy, physical muscular strength & force employed in Shotokan and other like styles of traditional karate can work against chi propagation, and impede or inhibit it's benefits & effects...  Rigid , tense, stiff, aggressive sequential movement can build muscular strength, etc.,  works against maximum chi.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 14, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Thanks Xue.  From a general perspective, I train an 'externally-oriented' art.  So internals is more of a mystery to me.  Nonetheless.  The internal strength is developed by the modern traditional karates, and is explicitly a base ability in them, as in all TMA.
> \
> My knowledge of tai chi, like internal arts, is that while muscular development occurs from the nature of the exercises, it is really the cultivation of chi and how chi conditions the bodily organs & structure internally that gives rise to its great, in a sense, physically unstoppable power....  way too difficult for me.
> ...



Old CMA saying; Internal goes to external, external goes to internal. Meaning, if trained properly you end up in the same place. If trained improperly you end up old, unhealthy and possibly crippled.


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## Sapphire (Sep 14, 2015)

I just think weightlifting is kinda boring.

I plan on doing a little bit just to improve my looks once my tendinitis cools off a bit (because inflammation, get it?), but really, if you think about TMAs historically, all of their "exercise" was farming.  And even though a lot of jobs have become easier over the years, farming is still damn hard work.  You work on a horse farm shoveling the stalls for a few hours, followed by throwing hay bails, then running the weed eater for a few more hours after that, working from sun up to sun down, you're going to be strong in no time.  Now imagine that, thousands of years ago, where you also had to walk multiple miles to get water and the bails weren't bails.  Running with a bucket of water on each arm might be a movie cliché but it's legitimate.  Also, if a farmer had poor shoveling technique, or poor water carrying technique, that farmer didn't get hurt and take a day off, he starved.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 15, 2015)

Sapphire said:


> Also, if a farmer had poor shoveling technique, or poor water carrying technique, that farmer didn't get hurt and take a day off, he starved.


 Shoveling seems like such an easy thing to do, no sweat, no technique needed. But that is so wrong. Shoveling takes a great deal of technique and people often find out that they were doing it the wrong way before the day ends. I bet children who worked on the farms understood the value of technique at an early age since there are many things on a farm that require good technique.  
*Common Snow Shoveling Injuries*
"The research team looked at snow shoveling injuries and medical emergencies in the U.S. from 1990 to 2006 using information from a national database. During that time, about 195,000 people in the U.S. were treated in a hospital emergency room for a snow shoveling injury."
Source:


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## Chrisoro (Sep 15, 2015)

Didn't read the whole thread, but won't need to as I got the answer ready anyway.

*Why do many traditional martial artists look down on weighlifting (some even calling it EASY)?*

The same reason that many weightlifters look down on traditional martial arts, or why mma-practitioners look down on tma-practitioners (and visa versa), and et cetera ad infinitum: It all comes down to a lack of insight into what the other parts are doing, and a cognitive bias that makes one prefer what oneself has put down a lot of time into and is most familiar with.


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## elder999 (Sep 15, 2015)

Chrisoro said:


> Didn't read the whole thread, but won't need to as I got the answer ready anyway.
> 
> *Why do many traditional martial artists look down on weighlifting (some even calling it EASY)?*
> 
> The same reason that many weightlifters look down on traditional martial arts, or why mma-practitioners look down on tma-practitioners (and visa versa), and et cetera ad infinitum: It all comes down to a lack of insight into what the other parts are doing, and a cognitive bias that makes one prefer what oneself has put down a lot of time into and is most familiar with.


If you'd read the whole thread, you'd see that the title should have been:

*Why do most traditional martial artists INSIST on some weighlifting (some even calling it NECESSARY)?*


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## ShotoNoob (Sep 15, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Old CMA saying; Internal goes to external, external goes to internal. Meaning, if trained properly you end up in the same place. If trained improperly you end up old, unhealthy and possibly crippled.


\
To me, TMU, the internal arts are just on a different plane.  Which I described earlier.  Otherwise, QFT.


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## Chrisoro (Sep 16, 2015)

elder999 said:


> If you'd read the whole thread, you'd see that the title should have been:
> 
> *Why do most traditional martial artists INSIST on some weighlifting (some even calling it NECESSARY)?*



Yes, but that is a completely different question, and it still does not invalidate (or even contrast with) the original question. There is no logical contradiction between stating that most traditional martial artists insists on some weightlifting, and at the same time asking why many traditional martial artists (unless you decide to define "many" in an absolute way) look down on weight lifting. I have seen several examples of (for example) different Wing Chun and other wushu instructors saying that big muscles hinders effective punching, because of some psuedo-scientific reasoning, and their students echoing this. The fact that a lot of other traditional martial artists insists on some weightlifting, doesn't make these people cease to exists. And in that light, I stand by my original answer.


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## elder999 (Sep 16, 2015)

Chrisoro said:


> . There is no logical contradiction between stating that most traditional martial artists insists on some weightlifting, and at the same time asking why many traditional martial artists (unless you decide to define "many" in an absolute way) look down on weight lifting.




*Do ANY traditional martial artists look down on weighlifting (some even calling it EASY)?*


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## Sapphire (Sep 16, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Shoveling seems like such an easy thing to do, no sweat, no technique needed. But that is so wrong. Shoveling takes a great deal of technique and people often find out that they were doing it the wrong way before the day ends. I bet children who worked on the farms understood the value of technique at an early age since there are many things on a farm that require good technique.
> *Common Snow Shoveling Injuries*
> "The research team looked at snow shoveling injuries and medical emergencies in the U.S. from 1990 to 2006 using information from a national database. During that time, about 195,000 people in the U.S. were treated in a hospital emergency room for a snow shoveling injury."
> Source:



Thank you.  I have a friend who used to work in overnight re-stock at the grocery store.  His coworkers were all 50-something-year-old men who have all had back surgeries and been on every other pain medication available because they all lift with their back.  My friend actually got picked on by these same men for using his knees to do heavy lifting.  He was being made fun of for using proper technique to prevent injury because he looked funny squatting!

Also, my brother used to work on a large horse farm.  The owner of the farm is in his late 70's and he raised his son to take over the farm.  His son is roughly 40 now and taught my brother all of the farming jobs.  My brother and three or four other guys would shovel out the stalls every morning with a pitch fork.  But G'Pa?  One pitchfork took too long, so this old man decided to weld two fork heads together.  Nobody at the farm can lift the fork properly except G'Pa and his son.  The young 20-somethings that went to the gym and played football in high school?  Nah.  Only the guys who had used the proper technique for decades.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 16, 2015)

Sapphire said:


> Thank you.  I have a friend who used to work in overnight re-stock at the grocery store.  His coworkers were all 50-something-year-old men who have all had back surgeries and been on every other pain medication available because they all lift with their back.  My friend actually got picked on by these same men for using his knees to do heavy lifting.  He was being made fun of for using proper technique to prevent injury because he looked funny squatting!
> 
> Also, my brother used to work on a large horse farm.  The owner of the farm is in his late 70's and he raised his son to take over the farm.  His son is roughly 40 now and taught my brother all of the farming jobs.  My brother and three or four other guys would shovel out the stalls every morning with a pitch fork.  But G'Pa?  One pitchfork took too long, so this old man decided to weld two fork heads together.  Nobody at the farm can lift the fork properly except G'Pa and his son.  The young 20-somethings that went to the gym and played football in high school?  Nah.  Only the guys who had used the proper technique for decades.


I truly believe that technique is everything.


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## 7BallZ (Jan 19, 2016)

Not directly related to this thread but since it deals with weightlifting I thought I'd post here. Can anyone help me with this?

Did traditional Muay Thai do any weight training before the introduction of Western equipment?


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## Skullpunch (Jan 19, 2016)

I think OP is confusing "traditional martial arts" with "larpers who think kung fu = real life Dragonball Z fighters"


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 19, 2016)

Change your body significantly and your center of gravity will change. That can have an effect on your martial arts. That's about it.


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## elder999 (Jan 19, 2016)

Skullpunch said:


> I think OP is confusing "traditional martial arts" with "larpers who think kung fu = real life Dragonball Z fighters"



You mean these guys didn't lift weights at all??!!
















Nope. Didn't think so!


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## Finlay (Jan 19, 2016)

In the TMA that I am fa,liar with there is a lot of weight training

This includes stones, stone locks, and really heavy weapons

Weight training and generally resistance training is seen as a good thing.

However isolated body building work ...... Not so much

Why do they prefer callisthenics, probably because they (who ever 'they' are)don't know anything about weight training


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## Kenpoguy123 (Jan 20, 2016)

Nothing wrong with weight lifting to add strength to your martial artist but what I hate is weight lifters who don't do any martial arts at all thinking their tough guys and can beat anyone just because of a bit of muscle


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## Paul_D (Jan 20, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Nothing wrong with weight lifting to add strength to your martial artist but what I hate is weight lifters who don't do any martial arts at all thinking their tough guys and can beat anyone just because of a bit of muscle


I love it ;-)  

I'd rather face someone who thinks they have the upper hand and underestimates me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 20, 2016)

Finlay said:


> Why do they prefer callisthenics, probably because they (who ever 'they' are)don't know anything about weight training



Actually, I suspect most instructors prefer calisthenics in their schools today for two simple reasons: cost and time. Equipment costs money, and calisthenics requires none. And, while traditional training involved weights (stone locks, etc.), those people trained a lot more than the average modern student (even the serious ones). A few calisthenics helps develop some functional strength, so they use that to get what benefit they can.


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## Skullpunch (Jan 20, 2016)

elder999 said:


> You mean these guys didn't lift weights at all??!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well yeah lifting weights tied loose ends way later but did Goku get to planet busting levels by lifting weights?  Fukk no, he did that by chasing a monkey and giving a cricket a bump on the head with a hammer.


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