# The Sir Sandwich - "Sir, yes Sir!



## Metal

Just watched a few TKD videos on YouTube and stumbled upon one American dojang video inbetween.

I don't mean to insult anyone who's using the "Sir, yes Sir" procedure in his dojang, but I have to say that I find it a little bit silly when it's being yelled as if people were in a military bootcamp. And even annoying after a while. In my opinion there's other ways to pay attention and show respect towards the instructor.

How common is the Sir Sandwich in the US?

And the Double-Sir makes it sound soooo exaggerated.

Do people even still use it in the military?


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## arnisador

It does seem somewhat common in the TKD world--I'm not sure why. In most schools I've always called people sensei or whatever and on occasion said "Yes, sir" but nothing like this. 

I think some segments of the military use it in initial training--but not even all of them.


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## Bill Mattocks

It is absolutely required in Marine Corps boot camp.  Not afterwards.

When in boot camp, one is first told that one does not speak of oneself in the first person.  There is no more "I" until after boot camp graduation.  One can describe oneself as "the Private."

The first and last words out of a recruit's mouth is 'Sir' (or Ma'am as required).

The only appropriate responses to questions requiring a yes or no answer are "Sir, yes sir," "Sir, no sir," or "Sir, the Private does not know but will find out, sir."

When given an instruction or an order, the recruit responds "Sir (repeat the command to ensure it is understood), aye aye sir!"  The recruit then does a proper 'about face' and performs the required at utmost speed and with precision and enthusiasm.

This is often seen as 'brainwashing' or 'dehumanizing' by outsiders who do not understand our ways.  But we do not care, our ways are not for them to understand.  The Marine Corps does what it does for a reason.

How this applies to TKD I could not tell you.  There are many US Marines who learned martial arts in Japan or Okinawa and now teach them in the USA, so it is not uncommon to hear Marine Corps terms and some of the discipline of that service in use.  For those who do not wish to do it, I suggest finding another instructor or getting with the program.  Nobody is going to die if they have to say "Sir, yes sir" from time to time.

In our dojo, it's not done.  Our Sensei asks that we show each other respect.  We address each other as "mister" or "miss" and their first or last name, and we refer to Sensei as "Sensei."  I do sometimes correct the youngest children when they address sensei by saying "yeah" or "I don't wanna" or something disrespectful like that.  Can't help it, my inner Marine comes out and I bow up a bit.  If the kids can't take it, then can do pushups.  Life is like that sometimes.


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## chrispillertkd

Metal said:


> Just watched a few TKD videos on YouTube and stumbled upon one American dojang video inbetween.
> 
> I don't mean to insult anyone who's using the "Sir, yes Sir" procedure in his dojang, but I have to say that I find it a little bit silly when it's being yelled as if people were in a military bootcamp. And even annoying after a while. In my opinion there's other ways to pay attention and show respect towards the instructor.
> 
> How common is the Sir Sandwich in the US?
> 
> And the Double-Sir makes it sound soooo exaggerated.
> 
> Do people even still use it in the military?



I've *never* heard of a Taekwon-Do school have students do this. Referring to the instructor, or students who are senior to you, as "sir" or "ma'am" is quite common (in fact, I can't think of any TKD Dojang where I've not seent his be the case at least during training). But it's not in the "Sir, yes, sir" vein, just "Yes, sir." Not too much on the yelling, either, now that I think about it. Just answering in a normal voice but using "sir" or "ma'am" since Taekwon-Do places high currency on using courtesy and etiquette.

I'd be interested in seeing what the school you described does in a non-training context. I always refer to my instructors as either "Master" and "Mrs." or "Sir" and "Ma'am," (or the Korean titles Suhyun nim and Sabum nim) whether we're in class or not. I can't imagine people yelling "Sir, yes, sir!" to their instructor outside of class!

Pax,

Chris


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## Tez3

A good many soldiers can say 'sir' and make it sound like an insult. :boing2:


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## rlobrecht

We don't use the sir sandwich at our school. Black belts are called Mr. First name, regardless of age, except in the black belt class. Adults are called Mr. First name regardless of rank. The school owner is called Mr. Last name or sabumnim. Our branch instructor is occasionally called Kyosanim, but usually just Mr. First name. There are a few places in class where a simple normal voice yes sir is the response to an instruction. 

Basically just polite behavior. 

Rick


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## rlobrecht

Tez3 said:


> A good many soldiers can say 'sir' and make it sound like an insult. :boing2:



I saw a comedian once who talked about the use of ma'am in retail. The jist of the joke was that you should replace ma'am with b*ch to get the true intent of the clerk.


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## Bill Mattocks

Tez3 said:


> A good many soldiers can say 'sir' and make it sound like an insult. :boing2:



A Marine recruit can do that too.  Once.  He or she will not repeat that particular mistake.


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## Dirty Dog

We don't use the Sir Sandwich either. It's either Master Valdez or Sabumnim. Blackbelts are "Mr/Mrs/Miss" Lastname, as are adults of any rank.

We don't even flog students who forget...


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## Tames D

Bill Mattocks said:


> It is absolutely required in Marine Corps boot camp.  Not afterwards.
> 
> When in boot camp, one is first told that one does not speak of oneself in the first person.  There is no more "I" until after boot camp graduation.  One can describe oneself as "the Private."
> 
> The first and last words out of a recruit's mouth is 'Sir' (or Ma'am as required).
> 
> The only appropriate responses to questions requiring a yes or no answer are "Sir, yes sir," "Sir, no sir," or "Sir, the Private does not know but will find out, sir."
> 
> When given an instruction or an order, the recruit responds "Sir (repeat the command to ensure it is understood), aye aye sir!"  The recruit then does a proper 'about face' and performs the required at utmost speed and with precision and enthusiasm.
> 
> This is often seen as 'brainwashing' or 'dehumanizing' by outsiders who do not understand our ways.  But we do not care, our ways are not for them to understand.  The Marine Corps does what it does for a reason.
> 
> How this applies to TKD I could not tell you.  There are many US Marines who learned martial arts in Japan or Okinawa and now teach them in the USA, so it is not uncommon to hear Marine Corps terms and some of the discipline of that service in use.  For those who do not wish to do it, I suggest finding another instructor or getting with the program.  Nobody is going to die if they have to say "Sir, yes sir" from time to time.
> 
> In our dojo, it's not done.  Our Sensei asks that we show each other respect.  We address each other as "mister" or "miss" and their first or last name, and we refer to Sensei as "Sensei."  I do sometimes correct the youngest children when they address sensei by saying "yeah" or "I don't wanna" or something disrespectful like that.  Can't help it, my inner Marine comes out and I bow up a bit.  If the kids can't take it, then can do pushups.  Life is like that sometimes.



Outsiders don't realize that there is a method to the madness in the Marine Corps. It's hard to explain.


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## Earl Weiss

Went to a seminar with the late Joe Lewis. Hosted him once. Since our habit is to address instructors as "Sir" he responded to me by saying "You see any bars on my shoulder? don't call me sir!" I gusess he was proud not to be thought of as an "Officer".


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## Tez3

Earl Weiss said:


> Went to a seminar with the late Joe Lewis. Hosted him once. Since our habit is to address instructors as "Sir" he responded to me by saying "You see any bars on my shoulder? don't call me sir!" I gusess he was proud not to be thought of as an "Officer".



It's a squaddie thing here that if you address someone who is not an officer as 'sir' he will come back with 'don't call me sir, I work for a living!' 'Sir' isn't used much here in the UK for anyone. We don't like the servility it implies even in the military. It's used there of course but much more likely you will get , 'yes,boss' even for officers, sir is for people you don't respect, boss for people you do. It's probably much more of a class thing in the UK than it is in the States, you don't have to put up with the aristocrats.


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## Dirty Dog

Tez3 said:


> It's a squaddie thing here that if you address someone who is not an officer as 'sir' he will come back with 'don't call me sir, I work for a living!' 'Sir' isn't used much here in the UK for anyone. We don't like the servility it implies even in the military. It's used there of course but much more likely you will get , 'yes,boss' even for officers, sir is for people you don't respect, boss for people you do. It's probably much more of a class thing in the UK than it is in the States, you don't have to put up with the aristocrats.



We don't?????

It's a mistake to assume that just because they didn't inherit family titles, we don't have our entitled aristocracy.


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## WaterGal

Hmm I've never seen this before.  We go "Yes sir!", and a little more, uh, military-style I guess than normal speaking voice, but not like that.


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## Tez3

Dirty Dog said:


> We don't?????
> 
> It's a mistake to assume that just because they didn't inherit family titles, we don't have our entitled aristocracy.



Your's though are Nouveau Riche who everyone looks down on lol, ours are poverty stricken aristos who have been living off us since at least 1066!


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## Bill Mattocks

Earl Weiss said:


> Went to a seminar with the late Joe Lewis. Hosted him once. Since our habit is to address instructors as "Sir" he responded to me by saying "You see any bars on my shoulder? don't call me sir!" I gusess he was proud not to be thought of as an "Officer".



The use of the term 'sir' and 'maam' for officers of the US military goes, I believe, to the commission itself, which states that the US recognizes so-and-so as an "Officer and a Gentleman," as made famous by the movie of the same name.  An enlisted person of any rank may lead, or take charge of or control of men, but does not command.  Only officers may command troops.  Enlisted men serve for periods of time specified by enlistment contracts, while officers serve at the discretion of Congress and may (if all other obligations are discharged, such as financial) resign their commissions as active-duty officers at any time.  Officers are subject to being recalled into the military (theoretically) at any time in their lives; enlisted men whose active and inactive obligations have expired cannot be recalled involuntarily.

Enlisted men do not like to be addressed as 'sir' unless they are Drill Instructors at one of the recruit training depots.  We use the term for all Marines when we are recruits.  When we graduate boot camp and become Marines, we use the term only for officers, not enlisted.  Hence, enlisted men who are 'sirred' accidentally will say just what you quoted.

On the other hand, in the Marine Corps, we do not abbreviate most ranks.  A sergeant is not 'sarge' for example.  That's Army talk.  And if a person is a 'Staff Sergeant,' we call him or her that, not 'Sergeant'.  Accepted familiar terms exist, however.  Gunnery Sergeants can be referred to as 'Gunny' by other Marines, and a Master Sergeant can be called 'Top'.  One can try using the term 'Master Guns' to refer to a Master Gunnery Sergeant, but most lower ranks would probably not dare.


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## ralphmcpherson

We dont call anyone sir, nor do we expect to be called sir. If I called my instructor sir, he would laugh his *** off.


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## Metal

Thanx everybody for the insight!

In Germany we have two ways to address people. The formal 'Sie' and informal 'du' (in English both terms are translated as 'you'). In nearly all clubs that I've trained at or visited people use the informal way of saying 'du' and using the first name. Unless when training under older Korean masters. That's when nearly everybody uses 'Sie' and adresses them as Meister (Master) Lastname. Oh, and when you meet older people you don't know yet in person you'll address them as 'Sie'.

When being asked if we understood something we would just say 'yes' or nod.


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## Gnarlie

It's 'du' at our club too. 

Gnarlie


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## Tez3

ralphmcpherson said:


> We dont call anyone sir, nor do we expect to be called sir. If I called my instructor sir, he would laugh his *** off.


Same with us.


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## granfire

Guess it's a Southern Thang then, to call everybody Sir/Ma'am.

So I guess should I travel to the UK again at any time, I'll be the turd the in the punch bowl, siring everybody. :lol:


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## crushing

Bill Mattocks said:


> On the other hand, in the Marine Corps, we do not abbreviate most ranks. A sergeant is not 'sarge' for example. That's Army talk. And if a person is a 'Staff Sergeant,' we call him or her that, not 'Sergeant'. Accepted familiar terms exist, however. Gunnery Sergeants can be referred to as 'Gunny' by other Marines, and a Master Sergeant can be called 'Top'. One can try using the term 'Master Guns' to refer to a Master Gunnery Sergeant, but most lower ranks would probably not dare.



I think 'sarge' is TV/Movie Army talk.  I know I didn't dare address a sergeant as sarge.


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## Bill Mattocks

crushing said:


> I think 'sarge' is TV/Movie Army talk.  I know I didn't dare address a sergeant as sarge.



I heard it a lot from Army guys when I was on active duty in the Marines.  Perhaps it has changed since then.  I also recall hearing every rank of Sergeant called "Sergeant," including Staff Sergeant, Sergeant First Class, etc.  We would not ever call a Staff Sergeant by just "Sergeant."  Even our officers don't do that to the enlisted ranks, they also use the full rank when addressing them.


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## Tez3

Bill Mattocks said:


> I heard it a lot from Army guys when I was on active duty in the Marines. Perhaps it has changed since then. I also recall hearing every rank of Sergeant called "Sergeant," including Staff Sergeant, Sergeant First Class, etc. We would not ever call a Staff Sergeant by just "Sergeant." Even our officers don't do that to the enlisted ranks, they also use the full rank when addressing them.




They've probably picked it up from our guys, it's a long standing thing going back well to when there was first sergeants in the 16th century. Perfectly correct to use it. Staff Sergeants are 'Staff' or Staffie', Cpls and L/Cpls are both 'corporals, execpt in the Guards regiments where they are Lance Sgts. as Queen Victoria didn't like her men to be called corporals which means servants she said. 
We aren't as formal as it seems the US is, our Royal Marine Commandos are a very tight knit unit so are just as likely to call each other by their first names or more likely nicknames, usually rude ones. Rank is less of an issue in the RMs and the SAS. It's informal in a elitist way, in that only the guys can be like that among themselves, it's less officer and enlisted men more like teams with each respected for their expertise. Most army regiments are similiar, they are often all related to each other and/or married into each others families, many are born and grow up in the regiment so familiarity is literal. If they are related to the other soldiers they probably went to school with them, each regiment recruits from specific areas. It does get a little incestuous at times but in terms of fighting abilities you can't beat the literal band of brothers...cousins, uncles, fathers and eve grandfathers!


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## Bill Mattocks

Tez3 said:


> They've probably picked it up from our guys, it's a long standing thing going back well to when there was first sergeants in the 16th century. Perfectly correct to use it. Staff Sergeants are 'Staff' or Staffie', Cpls and L/Cpls are both 'corporals, execpt in the Guards regiments where they are Lance Sgts. as Queen Victoria didn't like her men to be called corporals which means servants she said.
> We aren't as formal as it seems the US is, our Royal Marine Commandos are a very tight knit unit so are just as likely to call each other by their first names or more likely nicknames, usually rude ones. Rank is less of an issue in the RMs and the SAS. It's informal in a elitist way, in that only the guys can be like that among themselves, it's less officer and enlisted men more like teams with each respected for their expertise. Most army regiments are similiar, they are often all related to each other and/or married into each others families, many are born and grow up in the regiment so familiarity is literal. If they are related to the other soldiers they probably went to school with them, each regiment recruits from specific areas. It does get a little incestuous at times but in terms of fighting abilities you can't beat the literal band of brothers...cousins, uncles, fathers and eve grandfathers!



Inside a unit, we tended to call each other by name, usually last name or nickname.  There are many whose first names I never knew.  But that's in a small unit setting, and generally between enlisted troops below the rank of Staff Sergeant.


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## Tez3

I think that the British regimental system is very different from the American system, it works well here as our army is considerably smaller, I wouldn't say everyone knows everyone else in the army lol but it's close. I don't know if it's the same in the American armed forces but the rule is that in sport there is no rank, in team games such as football, rugby, cricket, the best player for the job is the captain regardless of what rank they hold, coaches, referees etc can do that whatever rank. In our martial arts club, it's first names only, no rank at all so no one gets called sir at all.


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## Steve

Well, for what it's worth, in the USAF, we never called anyone "Sarge" but a Sergeant was "Sergeant" regardless of rank, whether that was Staff Sergeant, Tech Sergeant, or Master Sergeant.  

Anyway... BJJ is simple.  Coach or by their first name.  If the particular black belt is from Brazil, we will often say "Professor" as opposed to "Coach" out of respect, because that's how you say "Coach" in Portuguese, although I've never heard any BJJ Black Belt get uptight over being called "Coach."


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## eliteguardian

My Master is less strict now, but when I joined up he expected to be bowed to and called Sir (Or in the case of a female Ma'am or Madame) However our Grandmaster Chong Lee expects us to respond with master (Ex: Yes Master!) My master is less strict about the Sir thing now but I didn't forget my original training and I still call every Black belt my rank and higher Sir or Madame.


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## Sukerkin

granfire said:


> Guess it's a Southern Thang then, to call everybody Sir/Ma'am.
> 
> So I guess should I travel to the UK again at any time, I'll be the turd the in the punch bowl, siring everybody. :lol:



:chuckles:  We can do so together, dear lady.  For, odd as it may sound, I tend to talk in as courteous and formal a way as I type ... and, thankfully, it's infectious too, at least amongst those old enough to have a rudimentary sense of politeness (there is no saving teenagers sad to say, tho' they do improve over time ).  Mind you, I have to say, the better I know you, the less genteel I become - if I insult you to your face (in an informal setting of course, standards must always apply ) then you know I really like you .


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## granfire

Sukerkin said:


> :chuckles:  We can do so together, dear lady.  For, odd as it may sound, I tend to talk in as courteous and formal a way as I type ... and, thankfully, it's infectious too, at least amongst those old enough to have a rudimentary sense of politeness (there is no saving teenagers sad to say, tho' they do improve over time ).  Mind you, I have to say, the better I know you, the less genteel I become - if I insult you to your face (in an informal setting of course, standards must always apply ) then you know I really like you .



:lol:

yep, among friends an insult is a sign of love, right!


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## chrispillertkd

granfire said:


> Guess it's a Southern Thang then, to call everybody Sir/Ma'am.



I don't think it's limited to the south. I'm from the mid-west and _always_ call my instructors Sir and Ma'am (when I'm not using their formal titles such as Master, Sa Hyun, or Sa Bum). I also refer to people who are older than me as "Mr." and "Mrs." and their last name. If it's somebody I don't know I'm quite likely to refer to them as "sir" or "ma'am" (or "miss" if they are young). 

Within the ITF there is a focus on etiquette and courtesy. This tends to carry over into non-Taekwon-Do situations for a lot of us. I have no problem with this at all. Putting the tenets into practice in one's daily life is part of being a Taekwon-Doin, IMNSHO. A few years ago one of my instructors asked me if I had ever referred to her by her first name, to which I replied, "No, Ma'am."  Treating people courteously, I have found, generally helps interactions with them because it gives them a feeling of being respected and is, on balance, not very costly for me, generally speaking. As Gen. Choi said, "all the years of hard training will be nothing but a waste of time if not accompanied by modesty & propriety which are the very essence of Oriental philosophy."

Then again, I personally know several people who not only don't generalize etiquette in other situations but are incredibly rude to people they talk to even if that person is another Taekwon-Doin. Maybe when the belt comes off the courtesy stops, or something. Most lapses I've seen are simply accidents; not being aware of what is expected in a certain situation or being forgetful. That's no big deal, really. Just opportunity for more practice. But some people really seem to think that once you're off the floor you can be as big a jerk as you want. (And, I guess, you _can_ be. Whether you should be or not is another matter.)

Pax,

Chris


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## Carol

I think I've yelled "Sir, yes, sir!" in class before.  Not because the teacher insisted upon the "sir sandwich" but because another student yelled it and a bunch of us joined in.  Getting a chance to shout and yell for fun can be quite cathartic and "Sir, yes, sir" is easy to say when you are out of breath.

I don't have much issue with it.  If the environment was overly controlling, then yeah, I'd have a problem with that.    But a lot of boot camp type exercises build team spirit and encourage the student to push themselves....and I think they are a bit more fun than they seem on YouTube.


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## punisher73

Probably just a tradition that was passed on that got out of control.  Much like everyone going around saying "Osu".

Japanese karate training was set up in a military fashion to prepare young men for service.  Many Koreans first learned it in a military setting and also taught it in a military setting.  Then add in that the first Americans to learn these arts were US servicemen, and you can see how the military flavor just got passed on and then down the line.


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## Steve

My experience has been that most people only use "Sir" when they obviously don't mean it.  I know that the few times I've been called "sir" on this forum, for example, it's been when someone's dismissing me.  As in, "I'm done discussing this with you.  Good day, sir."  Or, "With respect, sir... your opinion is flat out wrong and you're an idiot."  Of course, I'm paraphrasing somewhat, but that captures the general spirit.


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## crushing

I don't use the sir sandwich, but I do address my instructor as sir during class (open face sir sandwich?), particularly when he addresses me specifically and I have a yes or no response.  I do it as a matter of respect and certainly hope he doesn't think otherwise.


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## JWLuiza

I prefer my original school where respect was shown in actions not by how you address someone. The instructors (as did I when I became one) asked to be called by their first names and we were training too much to worry about titles, etc.


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## Josh Oakley

Steve said:


> My experience has been that most people only use "Sir" when they obviously don't mean it.  I know that the few times I've been called "sir" on this forum, for example, it's been when someone's dismissing me.  As in, "I'm done discussing this with you.  Good day, sir."  Or, "With respect, sir... your opinion is flat out wrong and you're an idiot."  Of course, I'm paraphrasing somewhat, but that captures the general spirit.



I SAID GOOD DAY, SIR!

lol

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Tames D

punisher73 said:


> Probably just a tradition that was passed on that got out of control.  Much like everyone going around saying "Osu".
> 
> Japanese karate training was set up in a military fashion to prepare young men for service.  Many Koreans first learned it in a military setting and also taught it in a military setting.  Then add in that the first Americans to learn these arts were US servicemen, and you can see how the military flavor just got passed on and then down the line.



Yeah, the osu thing is funny. Another thing that is getting old is seeing pics of guys with their pinky and index finger out. I know it's very Hawaiian but still... Enough already.


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## Steve

Tames D said:


> Yeah, the osu thing is funny. Another thing that is getting old is seeing pics of guys with their pinky and index finger out. I know it's very Hawaiian but still... Enough already.



One of the curses of being a middle aged white dude who is neither a striker, a gang member, nor from a pacific island is that I literally have nothing to do with my hands in a pic.  As a result, I convulse in a seizure of indecision that makes me look like even more of a dork than I really am. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## mook jong man

Steve said:


> One of the curses of being a middle aged white dude who is neither a striker, a gang member, nor from a pacific island is that I literally have nothing to do with my hands in a pic.  As a result, I convulse in a seizure of indecision that makes me look like even more of a dork than I really am.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Yes you do , you can do that pose where you stand there with your thumbs tucked into your belt.
That ones quite popular.


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## chrispillertkd

JWLuiza said:


> I prefer my original school where respect was shown in actions not by how you address someone.



Verbally interacting with someone is an action. 

Pax,

Chris


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## crushing

chrispillertkd said:


> Verbally interacting with someone is an action.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



I shall begin calling my instructor 'Hey Dude' in the most respectful manner.


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## Dirty Dog

Steve said:


> One of the curses of being a middle aged white dude who is neither a striker, a gang member, nor from a pacific island is that I literally have nothing to do with my hands in a pic. As a result, I convulse in a seizure of indecision that makes me look like even more of a dork than I really am.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



You can always do the "V thing behind other peoples heads.


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## oftheherd1

SIR, YES SIR? I thought that went away when Cobra Kai closed its doors. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





OK, first thing, I have been retired from the US Army for 23 years. No doubt some things have changed.



Bill Mattocks said:


> ...
> 
> Officers are subject to being recalled into the military (theoretically) at any time in their lives; enlisted men whose active and inactive obligations have expired cannot be recalled involuntarily.
> ...
> 
> On the other hand, in the Marine Corps, we do not abbreviate most ranks. A sergeant is not 'sarge' for example. That's Army talk. And if a person is a 'Staff Sergeant,' we call him or her that, not 'Sergeant'. Accepted familiar terms exist, however. Gunnery Sergeants can be referred to as 'Gunny' by other Marines, and a Master Sergeant can be called 'Top'. One can try using the term 'Master Guns' to refer to a Master Gunnery Sergeant, but most lower ranks would probably not dare.



When I retired, I was given a set of orders such that if the President declared a national emergency, I was directed to report to a certain post by the most direct means possible, and would be on active duty again. I think it was the same for officers under the rank of General. 

To my knowledge, that only applied to retirees, not those who left the military before retirement. If they had not served a certain amount of time on active duty before separation, they had a certain time in the active reserve (assignment to a specific unit, and monthly meetings), and then a certain amount of time in the inactive reserve, where they were subject to recall, but didn't have to be assigned to a unit or make monthly meetings. If I recall, the total time didn't exceed 10 years. General Officers are in a special status. If I recall, they 'retire' on full pay, but can be recalled to active duty at any time, for any amount of time, at the pleasure of their service. 

NCO ranks (Non-*Commissioned* Officers) in my experience were often called Sarge (other than corporals), or simply Sergeant, except for Master Sergeant (E-8), First Sergeant (E-8), and Sergeant Major (E-9). Master Sergeants could be called either unless the individual had a preference. In an infantry unit, the platoon sergeant might be called Plat Daddy, but probably not to his face except informally. First Sergeants might be informally be called Top. Otherwise, First Sergeants and Sergeants Major were always called by their rank. It would be an immediate stern lesson in etiquette to do otherwise. There are three types of Sergeant Major: a simple Sergeant Major (normally in an administrative duty), a Command Sergeant Major( the Sergeant Major of a battalion, or higher), and The Sergeant Major of the Army (only one serving at any given time, and he/she has a different pay scale). At no time would an NCO be called sir. That is a title reserved to commissioned (or warrant) officers. 

Some have mentioned people don't understand why Marines do things the way the do. I wonder if even many Marines understand that (or Airborne in my case). Even such a thing as close order drill has its place. Besides teaching an efficient way to move from one place to another, begins to contribute to a sense of unit cohesion. 

Doing things quickly without question has its place too. When a sergeant yells duck on the battlefield, it's probably not a good time to get into a lengthy philosophical discussion as to why you should. 

When you are ordered to charge a machine gun position and that order gives you a small chance of survival, failure to obey, may cause the death of many of your fellow fighters. Soldiers and Marines tend to have a lot of allegience to those in their squad, platoon, and company. They will die for each other when they might not be quick to give their lives for someone in another unit.

That is why one may jump on a hand grenade. The one who does so has no thought of survival. He simply hopes that he will save his comrades, and die as quickly and as painlessly as possibly.

I don't know if the Marines have a similar saying or tradition as the Airborne, but when an enlisted person passes an officer, or a lower ranking officer a higher ranking on, the lower ranker person will salute first and call out "All the way, Sir!" The higher ranking person will return the salute, and call out "Airborne!" It's an Airborne thing. We never give up, but go all the way.

But never any Sir, yes sir. At least no in the Army I was in.

EDIT:  All the military learning aside, when I studied Hapkido, I often referred to my GM as sir, saying yessir or nosir.  I also began calling him by his Korean title.  In English, he was quite satisfied to be called Master Lee by his students rather than Grand Master.  I did those things in class settings and in social settings as well.  I respected him very much.


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## Bill Mattocks

oftheherd1 said:


> I don't know if the Marines have a similar saying or tradition as the Airborne, but when an enlisted person passes an officer, or a lower ranking officer a higher ranking on, the lower ranker person will salute first and call out "All the way, Sir!"  The higher ranking person will return the salute, and call out "Airborne!"  It's an Airborne thing.  But never any Sir, yes sir.  At least no in the Army I was in.



An enlisted Marine salutes all officers and warrant officers of all US armed forces and renders a greeting, such as "Good afternoon, sir!"  The salute is held until returned by the officer or officers being saluted.  In unit formations, the highest-ranking enlisted man present takes charge of the group and renders the salute, while giving the order "Present arms!" to those in formation.  The officer(s) return the salute, at which time the senior enlisted Marine present gives the command "Order arms!" and the enlisted men drop their arms.

We do not salute indoors unless under arms (wearing a 'duty belt' is considered to be under arms, even if no weapon is present).  We do not salute without headgear on.  We do not salute while in civilian clothing (although that rule has been changed in recent years - all veterans of the armed services are permitted to render a hand salute when the National Anthem is played or when the National Ensign passes by, when covered, even wearing civilian clothing).  Enlisted men do not salute while sitting down unless confined to a wheelchair.  If armed with a rifle, we render a rifle salute or present arms, otherwise we render a hand salute.  We do not salute while guarding prisoners.  We do not salute in an armed theater of war when in the field (and officers often do not wear rank on their uniforms at that time, it makes them targets for snipers).

We only call enlisted men 'sir' during boot camp.  And we only use the 'sir, yes, sir' during boot camp.  The same thing with referring to ourselves in the third person; only during boot camp.  Once out in the Fleet Marine Force, it's "yes, sir," "no, sir," or 'aye aye sir" to officers and warrant officers only.

There are some unofficial traditions which are commonly observed, such as saluting an enlisted man who is a Congressional Medal of Honor recipient and calling that person 'sir'.  It's out of respect for the award and the person who earned it.

Many of these rules are seen to be silly or useless to civilians, but as you say, they have their place and their meanings.  And I note that when an enlisted man salutes and officer, the officer is obliged to return that salute.  Thus, both officers and enlisted offer each other respect.  Same thing when I bow to my sensei.  He bows also.  It's not about subservience, which some people think.  Just respect.  And that respect doesn't have to be earned before being offered; it's more like just being polite.  It doesn't mean I know the person I am saluting (or bowing to) and approve of them; it means I am a polite person who can observe the rules of decorum in a given situation.


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## Steve

Bill Mattocks said:


> An enlisted Marine salutes all officers and warrant officers of all US armed forces and renders a greeting, such as "Good afternoon, sir!"  The salute is held until returned by the officer or officers being saluted.


Off topic, but this reminds me of a couple of things that happened to me.  I hope you guys don't mind if I share a quick story.   

When I was in Basic Training at Lackland back in 1989, I failed to salute a staff vehicle when walking back from the store (it was a Lt. Colonel).  When I got back, my TI was waiting for me, and he was pissed.  Apparently, word got back to him faster than I did.  So, I spent at least an hour saluting inanimate objects, and greeting them politely.  
TI:  "Airman, there's Major Rock." 
Me:  Salute.  "Good afternoon, Major."  
TI:  "Is that Colonel Flagpole?"
Me:  Salute.  "Good afternoon, Colonel."

Made an impression. So, a few weeks later I'm once again walking back from the store, and a giant blue bus is coming slowly down the road with rank flags on it. I had never seen a "staff vehicle" that was other than a sedan, so I didn't know whether it qualified or not.  Having been burned once, I figured I'd take the gamble and pop a salute.  The bus passes me by and immediately I hear the, 'Pshhhh" of the air brakes as the bus stops and the door opens. Crap.  I figured it wasn't a staff vehicle, and because I got yelled at for everything in basic training, I was expecting to get an earful from a TI... my belief was that EVERYONE I encountered who wasn't a trainee was a TI in disguise trying to trick me into doing something wrong.  

"Airman!"  (I kept walking... hoping he wasn't talking to me.)
"Airman...  walking away with a shopping bag.  Come here.  I want to talk to you." 

Turns out that the rank on the flags was a star, and the bus was full of brand spanking new generals being given a tour of the training side of Lackland.  I was the first airman to salute them and so they insisted on giving me a ride back, asking me all of the typical questions, "Where are you from?  How do you like the food?  Etc."  

I was a nervous wreck, but it turned out okay.  Fun memory.


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## Tames D

Great story Steve.


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## oftheherd1

Bill Mattocks said:


> An enlisted Marine salutes all officers and warrant officers of all US armed forces and renders a greeting, such as "Good afternoon, sir!" The salute is held until returned by the officer or officers being saluted. In unit formations, the highest-ranking enlisted man present takes charge of the group and renders the salute, while giving the order "Present arms!" to those in formation. The officer(s) return the salute, at which time the senior enlisted Marine present gives the command "Order arms!" and the enlisted men drop their arms.
> 
> We do not salute indoors unless under arms (wearing a 'duty belt' is considered to be under arms, even if no weapon is present). We do not salute without headgear on. We do not salute while in civilian clothing (although that rule has been changed in recent years - all veterans of the armed services are permitted to render a hand salute when the National Anthem is played or when the National Ensign passes by, when covered, even wearing civilian clothing). Enlisted men do not salute while sitting down unless confined to a wheelchair. If armed with a rifle, we render a rifle salute or present arms, otherwise we render a hand salute. We do not salute while guarding prisoners. We do not salute in an armed theater of war when in the field (and officers often do not wear rank on their uniforms at that time, it makes them targets for snipers).
> 
> We only call enlisted men 'sir' during boot camp. And we only use the 'sir, yes, sir' during boot camp. The same thing with referring to ourselves in the third person; only during boot camp. Once out in the Fleet Marine Force, it's "yes, sir," "no, sir," or 'aye aye sir" to officers and warrant officers only.
> 
> There are some unofficial traditions which are commonly observed, such as saluting an enlisted man who is a Congressional Medal of Honor recipient and calling that person 'sir'. It's out of respect for the award and the person who earned it.
> 
> Many of these rules are seen to be silly or useless to civilians, but as you say, they have their place and their meanings. And I note that when an enlisted man salutes and officer, the officer is obliged to return that salute. Thus, both officers and enlisted offer each other respect. Same thing when I bow to my sensei. He bows also. It's not about subservience, which some people think. Just respect. And that respect doesn't have to be earned before being offered; it's more like just being polite. It doesn't mean I know the person I am saluting (or bowing to) and approve of them; it means I am a polite person who can observe the rules of decorum in a given situation.



I think most of that is common throughout the services Bill.  Thanks for mentioning it for those who would not know it and might/should be interested.  I guess some of us that have spent time in a service take a lot of knowledge for granted.

That includes saluting an MoH recipient.  http://www.stripes.com/blogs/the-ru...ops-salute-medal-of-honor-recipients-1.125849 gives some insight into MoH recipients.  

Also when I first joined the Army, wearing a helmet liner also put one under arms.  When under arms, you did not have to remove your head gear when entering a chapel, but no one would have been corrected for doing, even if you purpose for doing so was for official business.

Your last paragraph is important for everyone to know as well, especially regarding the salute.  I think many view it as some old-fashioned military discipline thing.  It is that, but more importantly, it is also as you said, mutual respect shown by both officers and enlisted men, to each other.


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## oftheherd1

Steve - Thanks for your anecdote.  Must have created something of a stir when a bus full of generals pulled into your unit area and let you out.  I enjoyed reading that.  Some things are rather uniquely humorous to military or former military.  I never saw anyone required to salute flagpoles or rocks, but old NCOs, especially drill sergeants, were known to be creative sometimes.  

For example, if a discarded cigarette was not first field stripped, the person who discarded it might be required to did a hole six feet, by six feet, by six feet, to bury the cigarette in.  If you've never done it, you have no idea how much dirt that is; especially with an entrenching tool.  I think it wouldn't happen in today's Army, nor in the old Army when I came in.  But some NCOs in the old Airborne hadn't gotten the memo.


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## Carol

oftheherd1 said:


> Steve - Thanks for your anecdote.  Must have created something of a stir when a bus full of generals pulled into your unit area and let you out.  I enjoyed reading that.  Some things are rather uniquely humorous to military or former military.  I never saw anyone required to salute flagpoles or rocks, but old NCOs, especially drill sergeants, were known to be creative sometimes.
> 
> For example, if a discarded cigarette was not first field stripped, the person who discarded it might be required to did a hole six feet, by six feet, by six feet, to bury the cigarette in.  If you've never done it, you have no idea how much dirt that is; especially with an entrenching tool.  I think it wouldn't happen in today's Army, nor in the old Army when I came in.  But some NCOs in the old Airborne hadn't gotten the memo.



6x6x6 with an e-tool???????


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## Bill Mattocks

Carol said:


> 6x6x6 with an e-tool???????



I take it you never saw the movie "The D.I." with Jack Webb?  In the movie (and supposedly in real life), the recruits were made to dig a 6-foot grave for a sand flea that a recruit slapped without permission.  And Parris Island, South Carolina, is sand.  Just *try* to dig deep hole in sand.


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## Tez3

British forces never salute the person but the cap badge which represents the Queen's Commission and therefore the Queen. No salutes are given unless wearing a hat/cap or the headress of the service/regiment, which means no saluting out of uniform. When no hat is worn the junior service person will 'brace up' ie come to attention. Only officers are saluted as only they have the Queen's Commision.


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## Carol

Bill Mattocks said:


> I take it you never saw the movie "The D.I." with Jack Webb?  In the movie (and supposedly in real life), the recruits were made to dig a 6-foot grave for a sand flea that a recruit slapped without permission.  And Parris Island, South Carolina, is sand.  Just *try* to dig deep hole in sand.


 
No, sorry,  I don't watch much tv or movies.  Too busy climbing mountains or otherwise exploring


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## Sukerkin

A quick thread aside here - just noticed your Journey ticker has taken a big jump, Carol.  Well done that woman :tup:.


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## oftheherd1

Bill Mattocks said:


> I take it you never saw the movie "The D.I." with Jack Webb? In the movie (and supposedly in real life), the recruits were made to dig a 6-foot grave for a sand flea that a recruit slapped without permission. And Parris Island, South Carolina, is sand. Just *try* to dig deep hole in sand.



I've been around sandy soils. No fun. But as it turns out, about half way between Taiwan and Okinawa, is a small island called Irio Mote; dirt, volcanic rocks, some sand.  We were there for a special jungle school that our battlegroup had set up about 1963. For some unknown reason, I went somewhere, and left my rifle in my pup tent. Now in the infantry, that is a no, no. I knew that and had never done such a thing. Not only were we not susposed to, but it is very much a survival thing. I hadn't gotten too far when I remembered and returned quickly to my pup tent. NOT THERE!  :vu:

Worse, nobody knew where it was when I checked. So, I had to go to my squad leader and confess my sin. No hiding that. I was immediately shown my rifle, chewed out up one side and down the other, then dispatched to an area adjacent to the slit trench (field latrine to the uninitiated) to dig a six by in penance. As with Bill, I thought that was just in the movies. I was more angry than I can tell. I was fuming. I understood I had done something wrong, and was very angry with myself, and I had heard of 6x6x6 pits, but never seen one. Grueling runs, yes. Bear pits, yes. Forced marches, yes. 6x6x6, no. But what to do. I grounded my rifle and began digging.   :wah:

About the 6x6x2 level, I was relieved. I could do nothing but sulk off as thankfully as possible. For about 50 yards. NOOOooo!!! Where's my rifle??? About the 6x6x3 1/2 level, I was again much chastised and was relieved again. I quietly collected all my gear (for sure including my rifle), disappeared to my pup tent, glaring at all who came by, wondering who it was who had ratted me out. I never did find out. But I can assure you I was even more careful about protecting all government equipment, starting with my rifle.

Ah, the old days.  So many wonderful life lessons to be learned in the Army.  

Thank heaven they are in fact the old days.


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## Bill Mattocks

In boot camp, during our one-week bivouac at Camp Pendleton, various Drill Instructors attempted to relieve us of our rifles as we slept (in Shelter Halfs, not pup tents, hehehe).  I slept with my rifle's sling wrapped around my arms.  Someone did grab my rifle, but they could not pull it out of the Shelter Half, since I was attached to it.  They pulled HARD and I slid out into the moonlight, still attached to my rifle.  The Drill Instructor said quietly "Carry on, Private," and went away.  Sorry to hear that happened to you, could not have been fun.  I guess it beats Court Martial or NJP.


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## Bill Mattocks

Here you go...


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## oftheherd1

Bill Mattocks said:


> ...
> 
> Sorry to hear that happened to you, could not have been fun. I guess it beats Court Martial or NJP.



Thanks, but no need to feel sorry.  Just another life lesson to be learned.  And bragging rights if that counts.  How many can say they got to dig a six by?  And sure it was better than a CM of NJD.


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## Dobbelsteen

Over here (The Netherlands) most people only use 'sir' for strangers. Therefor it has actually become somewhat insulting if you say sir to people who aren't strangers to you. If you want to be respectfull, you should be bothered to remember (and use) someones name.


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## Steve

Tames D said:


> Outsiders don't realize that there is a method to the madness in the Marine Corps. It's hard to explain.


The method is in the name:. muscles are required; intelligence not essential, sir.


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## Steve

What a fun trip down memory lane. Thanks to @Metal for bringing it back up.


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## Buka

Steve said:


> Off topic, but this reminds me of a couple of things that happened to me.  I hope you guys don't mind if I share a quick story.
> 
> When I was in Basic Training at Lackland back in 1989, I failed to salute a staff vehicle when walking back from the store (it was a Lt. Colonel).  When I got back, my TI was waiting for me, and he was pissed.  Apparently, word got back to him faster than I did.  So, I spent at least an hour saluting inanimate objects, and greeting them politely.
> TI:  "Airman, there's Major Rock."
> Me:  Salute.  "Good afternoon, Major."
> TI:  "Is that Colonel Flagpole?"
> Me:  Salute.  "Good afternoon, Colonel."
> 
> Made an impression. So, a few weeks later I'm once again walking back from the store, and a giant blue bus is coming slowly down the road with rank flags on it. I had never seen a "staff vehicle" that was other than a sedan, so I didn't know whether it qualified or not.  Having been burned once, I figured I'd take the gamble and pop a salute.  The bus passes me by and immediately I hear the, 'Pshhhh" of the air brakes as the bus stops and the door opens. Crap.  I figured it wasn't a staff vehicle, and because I got yelled at for everything in basic training, I was expecting to get an earful from a TI... my belief was that EVERYONE I encountered who wasn't a trainee was a TI in disguise trying to trick me into doing something wrong.
> 
> "Airman!"  (I kept walking... hoping he wasn't talking to me.)
> "Airman...  walking away with a shopping bag.  Come here.  I want to talk to you."
> 
> Turns out that the rank on the flags was a star, and the bus was full of brand spanking new generals being given a tour of the training side of Lackland.  I was the first airman to salute them and so they insisted on giving me a ride back, asking me all of the typical questions, "Where are you from?  How do you like the food?  Etc."
> 
> I was a nervous wreck, but it turned out okay.  Fun memory.



Awesome story!

That whole story should be a scene in a film.


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## Steve

Dobbelsteen said:


> Over here (The Netherlands) most people only use 'sir' for strangers. Therefor it has actually become somewhat insulting if you say sir to people who aren't strangers to you. If you want to be respectfull, you should be bothered to remember (and use) someones name.


Many years ago, like a lot of people, I would often apologize for being terrible with names. One time, as I was meeting someone, I said something like, "I'm terrible with names, so if I forget your name please don't be offended."  You know, like you hear all the time.  They responded with something like, "If my name were important to you, you would remember it."  It stuck with me, because as snarky as they were, they were also right.  Since then, I've found that if I pay attention to someone when they introduce themselves, and make a point of remembering their name, I will usually have no trouble recalling it when I see them again.


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## Steve

Buka said:


> Awesome story!
> 
> That whole story should be a scene in a film.


I forgot I shared that.  Basic Training was a real adventure for me.


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## drop bear

Earl Weiss said:


> Went to a seminar with the late Joe Lewis. Hosted him once. Since our habit is to address instructors as "Sir" he responded to me by saying "You see any bars on my shoulder? don't call me sir!" I gusess he was proud not to be thought of as an "Officer".



Yeah the "don't call me sir I work for a living"
is a pretty popular quote here.


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## CB Jones

I'm from the south so I answer yes sir, no sir, yes ma'am, and no ma'am to everyone.

Now when it comes to addressing me I don't mind Sarge but hate Sgt Jones....I usually correct them that its just Chris.


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## Buka

CB Jones said:


> I'm from the south so I answer yes sir, no sir, yes ma'am, and no ma'am to everyone.
> 
> Now when it comes to addressing me I don't mind Sarge but hate Sgt Jones....I usually correct them that its just Chris.



When I see an old Sgt of mine, even if we’ve since become good friends, when I first see them I always say 
“Hey, Sarge!”
After that it’s by their first name.


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