# Martial arts shouldn't take years to learn.



## Fuhrer Drumpf

This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an excellent fighter in a relatively short amount of time.

When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.

Comments?

PS

I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."


----------



## Fuhrer Drumpf

This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an highly regarded in a relatively short amount of time.

When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.

Comments?

PS

I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."


----------



## Anarax

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an highly regarded in a relatively short amount of time.
> 
> When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> PS
> 
> I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."



Mastering and proficiency aren't the same thing. If you have mastered it you are more than proficient, but proficiency isn't mastering. It's the teacher and quality of training that makes the difference, not so much the system. Krav Maga is a self defense system, thus it will have fewer techniques than a lot of other Traditional systems. Krav Maga will teach you how to deal with mostly untrained people using wild techniques, not so much against the trained. Horse stance is a training stance, not a fighting stance. You can't say X style is inferior to Y style. It would be as ridiculous if I compared a well trained Karateka against a poorly trained Muay Thai student and said Karate is better. I've sparred Krav Maga students that didn't know what to do when I threw combinations and I've had Muay Thai students that telegraphed every move. That's not to say all students from those systems do that, only that *those *particular students did. I don't jump to the conclusion and say *all *krav maga and Muay Thai students are poorly trained.


----------



## MA_Student

Yes life is more than fighting which is why not everyone trains to fight


----------



## drop bear

You generally won't find a pro fighter with under 10 years of experience. So not really

And people do train a lot of stuff that don't really help them fight sometimes.


----------



## Buka




----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> You generally won't find a pro fighter with under 10 years of experience. So not really
> 
> And people do train a lot of stuff that don't really help them fight sometimes.


That last part is key - I firmly believe most martial arts contain stuff for people like me, so we can continue to train after we reach some reasonable competency with the core techniques. After that point, especially as I age, I need something to chew on and dig deeper into. I think there's a very slight improvement (if any) in my ability to defend myself when I get better at some of these things, but they are fun to learn, and they keep me active in my training. So, the real "fight prep" value of them is that they keep me coming back, so I don't get rusty. Wait, I think I just argued myself into disagreeing. Damnit!


----------



## FighterTwister

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an highly regarded in a relatively short amount of time.
> 
> When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> PS
> 
> I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."




Like I have said a few times in this Forum, first that all martial arts is fighting but its more about the the person not the style.

Like Bruce Lee said styles separate men, some just practice martial arts for the love of the art form or style others practice the same art form for the love of fighting meaning how its practically used not actually getting into criminal activity is what I mean.

So both are needed meaning that there needs to be people keeping alive all the martial arts in this list - List of martial arts - Wikipedia .................there needs to be people sticking to one art form and mastering it to perfect, we also need people learning different things from each martial art form and we all need practitioners or students that can learn slowly and/or progress instinctively quick through all the stages and represent that style proficiently.

Question is how you express your martial art, how you master it, also how you train in it, as well as how you represent it!

This could take a life time, or 12 months for people because of the way they approach it or embrace it mentally, emotionally and physically.

Its about understanding self, being self aware of your ability without sounding to spiritual or some kind of guru,  its really not that hard to understand this in these simple terms.

I have so much to say on this and other subjects that are daily pointed out in this Forum alone but I try to keep it short and simple and thats really hard for me, honestly speaking

There is allot of nonsense said about what is martial arts and the many forms or what they are about.

I cant be bothered demystifying all the grey areas and how people perceive different things from one truth but only to say that is more about the individual in every aspect when talking martial arts.

Its like Pizza for example originally it was one particular form and recipe now you can even get spaghetti and sausage put into it, again see how someone perceives it to be, how someone makes their own recipe  or interpretation or how they represent what Pizza is and so on.


Its always about the person Martial Arts is essentially a fighting sport an activity or art form in any style interpreted, represented and expressed by the practitioner and its path is what you make of it in a short term or long term experience.

Another example some say boxing will take you 10 years to master yet when you look at someone pro like Mike Tyson he was already fighting in the Junior  Olympics at an early age due to his natural ability and embrace for boxing as his main focus just to make a quick example.

As for me I'm now a student of Jeet Kune Do and practice that as my chosen art form from a love of fighting concept not actually doing so.

I accept all that Bruce Lee taught in his scientific, philosophical and practical approach to show the world his expression for what he saw as martial arts and how others have taken, expressed, followed it through, or interpretations. For some they grasp this slowly for me I have grasped it very quickly because its a perfect match for my body types and the way I express martial arts as my passion and love for it.

I hope I have shed some light on the subject well this is my opinion sure others will have their own but this is my journey and my interest others have their own journey and interest  and how it works into there life.


----------



## FighterTwister

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an highly regarded in a relatively short amount of time.
> 
> When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> PS
> 
> I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."




Like I have said a few times in this Forum, first that all martial arts is fighting but its more about the the person not the style.

Like Bruce Lee said - "Styles separate men",  some just practice martial arts for the love of the art form or style others practice the same art form for the love of fighting meaning how its practically used not actually getting into criminal activity is what I mean.

So both are needed meaning that there needs to be people keeping alive all the martial arts in this list - List of martial arts - Wikipedia .................there needs to be people sticking to one art form and mastering it to perfection. We also need people learning different things from each martial art form and we all need practitioners or students that can learn slowly and/or progress instinctively quick through all the stages and represent that style proficiently.

Question is how you express your martial art, how you master it, also how you train in it, as well as how you represent it!

This could take a life time, or 12 months for people because of the way they approach it or embrace it mentally, emotionally and physically.

Its about understanding self, being self aware of your ability without sounding to spiritual or some kind of guru,  its really not that hard to understand this in these simple terms.

I have so much to say on this and other subjects that are daily pointed out in this Forum alone but I either chose not to or post a reply or try to keep it short and simple and thats really hard for me, honestly speaking.

There is allot of nonsense said about what is martial arts and the many forms or what they are about and the many debates and politics of how is who and origins.

I cant be bothered demystifying all the grey areas and how people perceive different things from one truth but only to say that is more about the individual in every aspect when talking martial arts.

Its like Pizza for example originally it was one particular form and recipe now you can even get spaghetti and sausage put into it, again see how someone perceives it to be, how someone makes their own recipe  or interpretation or how they represent what Pizza is as to how they do it and so on.

Its always about the person Martial Arts is essentially a fighting sport an activity or art form in any style interpreted, represented and expressed by the practitioner and its path is what you make of it in a short term or long term experience.

Another example some say boxing will take you 10 years to master yet when you look at someone pro like Mike Tyson he was already fighting in the Junior  Olympics at an early age due to his natural ability and embrace for boxing as his main focus just to make a quick example.

As for me I'm now a student of Jeet Kune Do and practice that as my chosen art form from a love of fighting concept not actually doing so.

I accept all that Bruce Lee taught in his scientific, philosophical and practical approach to show the world his expression for what he saw as martial arts and how others have taken, expressed, followed it through, or interpretations. For some they grasp this slowly for me I have grasped it very quickly because its a perfect match for my body types and the way I express martial arts as my passion and love for it.

Well I hope I have shed some light on the subject well this is my opinion sure others will have their own but this is my journey and my interest others have their own journey and interest  and how it works into there life.


----------



## FighterTwister

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an highly regarded in a relatively short amount of time.
> 
> When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> PS
> 
> I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."




Like I have said a few times in this Forum, first that all martial arts is fighting but its more about the the person not the style.

Like Bruce Lee said - "Styles separate men",  some just practice martial arts for the love of the art form or style others practice the same art form for the love of fighting meaning how its practically used not actually getting into criminal activity is what I mean.

So both are needed meaning that there needs to be people keeping alive all the martial arts in this list - List of martial arts - Wikipedia .................there needs to be people sticking to one art form and mastering it to perfection. We also need people learning different things from each martial art form and we all need practitioners or students that can learn slowly and/or progress instinctively quick through all the stages and represent that style proficiently.

Question is how you express your martial art, how you master it, also how you train in it, as well as how you represent it!

This could take a life time, or 12 months for people because of the way they approach it or embrace it mentally, emotionally and physically.

Its about understanding self, being self aware of your ability without sounding to spiritual or some kind of guru,  its really not that hard to understand this in these simple terms.

I have so much to say on this and other subjects that are daily pointed out in this Forum alone but I either chose not to or post a reply or try to keep it short and simple and thats really hard for me, honestly speaking.

There is allot of nonsense said about what is martial arts and the many forms or what they are about and the many debates and politics of how its done or who is who and its origins etc.......

I can't be bothered demystifying all the grey areas and how people perceive different things from one truth but only to say that is more about the individual in every aspect when talking martial arts.

Its like Pizza for example originally it was one particular form and recipe now you can even get spaghetti and sausage put into it, again see how someone perceives it to be, how someone makes their own recipe  or interpretation or how they represent what Pizza is as to how they do it and so on.

Its always about the person Martial Arts is essentially a fighting sport an activity or art form in any style interpreted, represented and expressed by the practitioner and its path is what you make of it in a short term or long term experience.

Another example some say boxing will take you 10 years to master yet when you look at someone pro like Mike Tyson he was already fighting in the Junior  Olympics at an early age due to his natural ability and embrace for boxing as his main focus just to make a quick example.

As for me I'm now a student of Jeet Kune Do and practice that as my chosen art form from a love of a fighting concept without not actually getting into fights and beating people up, its more a passion and a respect for the art from a perspective of thinking.

I accept all that Bruce Lee taught in his scientific, philosophical and practical approach to show the world his expression for what he saw as martial arts and how others have taken, expressed, followed it through, or interpretations. For some they grasp this slowly for me I have grasped it very quickly because its a perfect match for my body types and the way I express martial arts as my passion and love for it.

Well I hope I have shed some light on the subject well this is my opinion sure others will have their own but this is my journey and my interest others have their own journey and interest  and how it works into there life.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

If you want only to learn to fight, that can be done in a relatively short period of time. If you want something more, it may take longer.

Like learning a language. Anyone can learn to ask where the bathroom is, and if that's all you need, great. If you want to write a novel in that language, it may take longer to learn what you need to know.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an highly regarded in a relatively short amount of time.



Highly respected is good.  But is that the goal?



> When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.



Actually, not to be rude, but you don't 'get' anything.

Your comments indicate that you see martial arts as good for one thing - fighting.  It is good for that, certainly.  But that is not necessarily all it is good for.  Your comments indicate that you 'get' that the only other thing it might be good for would be "authentic tradition," which you then deride.

So what is martial arts for?

Wrong question.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I study karate-do.  A 'do' is a way, as in a way of life.  I don't do it 'for' anything; I do it because it is part of my life.

In Japan, a 'do' can be many things, from flower arranging to tea making to calligraphy.  People devote their lives to it.  But surely, one might argue, you can learn to stick flowers in a pot in a short period of time.  I know florists who learned in a couple weeks, right?  So what's the point of wasting their entire lives learning to do it in a particular way, or to support a particular ethic?  I have a calligraphy font on my computer, what's the point of wasting your life learning to make letters on paper with ink and brush?  How is one letter better or worse than another letter made using a laser printer?

The point here is that no, you do not 'get' it.  With all due respect, you don't understand much at all about traditional martial arts.  You don't even understand enough to be critical in an intelligent manner.



> Comments?



See above.



> PS
> 
> I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."



No, you are actually speaking from a place of extreme ignorance.

What you 'feel' is your subjective opinion.  Your prerogative; we all get to have opinions, but your denigration of generations of karateka who have devoted their lives to something you clearly do not understand doesn't stand you in good stead in *my* opinion.


----------



## jobo

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an highly regarded in a relatively short amount of time.
> 
> When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> PS
> 
> I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."


we have,done this before, no it really shouldn't, if you are talking about an ability to fight to a good standard, but karate doesn't measure its self on an ability to put people on the  floor quickly, it measures its self on an ability to master perfect form on a seemingly infinite number of techniques, you master 50 in q,couple of years and find out there are another 1000 to go. And that does indeed take,decades to do.
its like a dancer trying to learn every dance that's ever been recorded, they can be said to be,a good dancer when they have a dozen under their belt, but lots more to go before they,are a master of dance.

with that as the end goal, there seems no rush to get you to being a,competent fighter and the training methodology is to go very slowly to completely master a few things, rather than turn you into a killing machine in 2years who is quite good ata limited amount of  thing

if you cut out all the flim flam and,simplified karate down to the dozen most effective techniques, a bit like MT and just taught them, then an individual would progress at more or less the same speed as they would if they took up MT.

if you want to be,able to fight well and  quickly, then karate is probably not the,discipline for you. If you want life long development of mind and body that has little to do with actually fighting then it is


----------



## Balrog

Bill Mattocks said:


> If you want only to learn to fight, that can be done in a relatively short period of time. If you want something more, it may take longer.
> 
> Like learning a language. Anyone can learn to ask where the bathroom is, and if that's all you need, great. If you want to write a novel in that language, it may take longer to learn what you need to know.


That's a very good analogy.


----------



## CB Jones

Axiom??


----------



## Fuhrer Drumpf

Bill Mattocks said:


> Highly respected . . . .



I didn't say highly respected. I said highly regarded.



> What you 'feel' is your subjective opinion.  Your prerogative; we all get to have opinions, but your denigration of generations of karateka who have devoted their lives to something you clearly do not understand doesn't stand you in good stead in *my* opinion.



This sounds no different than what a religious person might say when reason confronts their traditions. Sorry, but I believe that the woo-woo can be removed from martial arts training. We're not i


jobo said:


> we have,done this before, no it really shouldn't, if you are talking about an ability to fight to a good standard, but karate doesn't measure its self on an ability to put people on the  floor quickly, it measures its self on an ability to master perfect form on a seemingly infinite number of techniques, you master 50 in q,couple of years and find out there are another 1000 to go. And that does indeed take,decades to do.
> its like a dancer trying to learn every dance that's ever been recorded, they can be said to be,a good dancer when they have a dozen under their belt, but lots more to go before they,are a master of dance.
> 
> with that as the end goal, there seems no rush to get you to being a,competent fighter and the training methodology is to go very slowly to completely master a few things, rather than turn you into a killing machine in 2years who is quite good ata limited amount of  thing
> 
> if you cut out all the flim flam and,simplified karate down to the dozen most effective techniques, a bit like MT and just taught them, then an individual would progress at more or less the same speed as they would if they took up MT.
> 
> if you want to be,able to fight well and  quickly, then karate is probably not the,discipline for you. If you want life long development of mind and body that has little to do with actually fighting then it is



You seem to be under the impression that I'm some meathead who cares only about brutality. You speak of "developing mind and body." This can be done regardless of MA training. Too many East Asian martial arts have become cultish in this way.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> Comments?



 Seems to me that  you have already made you decision and are not necessarily looking for a discusion on the topic.... also choosing a screen name that starts with Fuhrer (since it is defined  as a ruthless, tyranical leader) does not exactly give one the feeling that you are looking for a productive discussion either. And Drumpf could be very easily thought of as a rather intense political statement when combined with Fuhrer.

 Those are my only comments on this, I hope my thoughts on this are wrong


----------



## Fuhrer Drumpf

Balrog said:


> That's a very good analogy.



No, not really. Improving language skills serves a practical purpose. Improving complex kata only makes you good at doing complex kata.


----------



## jobo

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> I didn't say highly respected. I said highly regarded.
> 
> 
> 
> This sounds no different than what a religious person might say when reason confronts their traditions. Sorry, but I believe that the woo-woo can be removed from martial arts training. We're not i
> 
> 
> You seem to be under the impression that I'm some meathead who cares only about brutality. You speak of "developing mind and body." This can be done regardless of MA training. Too many East Asian martial arts have become cultish in this way.


well of,course it can be done with out ma, you could take up ballroom dancing, BUTthe point remains that a good proportion of those doing tma are,doing so for reasons,only remotely to do with having an ability to fight well, certainly as they get older, it becomes life,affirming, it keeps them young(er)
saying right that's it! You have learned everything there is to learn is not what they want to here.

but again, as you chose not to understand it last time,
if you want to learn to fight to a high standard quickly, then the,whole outlook of karate is wrong for you, do MT instead


----------



## Fuhrer Drumpf

jobo said:


> well of,course it can be done with out ma, you could take up ballroom dancing, BUTthe point remains that a good proportion of those doing tma are,doing so for reasons,only remotely to do with having an ability to fight well, certainly as they get older, it becomes life,affirming, it keeps them young(er)
> saying right that's it! You have learned everything there is to learn is not what they want to here.
> 
> but again, as you chose not to understand it last time,
> if you want to learn to fight to a high standard quickly, then the,whole outlook of karate is wrong for you, do MT instead



As an atheist and a rationalist, I get irritated when innocent people get duped by some of the traditional nonsense. I see no reason to put a martial art on a pedestal.

Also, you speak of using TMA for personal development. Ok. But remember the footage of the Chinese wushu master who accepted the challenge of the Chinese MMA fighter and lost in a few seconds? All his many years of "character improvement" flew out the window the moment he even accepted such a challenge.


----------



## jobo

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> No, not really. Improving language skills serves a practical purpose. Improving complex kata only makes you good at doing complex kata.


 no its runs, complex kata is improving body language skills


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> I didn't say highly respected. I said highly regarded.



I stand corrected.  "Highly regarded," then.



> This sounds no different than what a religious person might say when reason confronts their traditions. Sorry, but I believe that the woo-woo can be removed from martial arts training. We're not i



Ah, woo-woo.  I see.  What you make clear by your use of terms is that you have no interest in any martial arts training beyond the surface level.  You would equate anything that doesn't relate directly to punching and kicking to be "woo-woo."  Well, that is your opinion, as before.  One that is shared by some, but certainly not all martial artists feel that way.



> You seem to be under the impression that I'm some meathead who cares only about brutality. You speak of "developing mind and body." This can be done regardless of MA training. Too many East Asian martial arts have become cultish in this way.



You have quite a few opinions, but very little to offer in the way of argument, other than stating 'how you feel'.

Have a nice day and goodbye.


----------



## jobo

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> As an atheist and a rationalist, I get irritated when innocent people get duped by some of the traditional nonsense. I see no reason to put a martial art on a pedestal.
> 
> Also, you speak of using TMA for personal development. Ok. But remember the footage of the Chinese wushu master who accepted the challenge of the Chinese MMA fighter and lost in a few seconds? All his many years of "character improvement" flew out the window the moment he even accepted such a challenge.


you seem to be,trying to argue a point no one is,contesting.

so again, points i think we,agree on?

tma is a,goof way to develop your body and mind

it is not a particularly good way to learn fighting skill, there are,certainly more,efficient ways to do it in a,shorter. Time,frame

most of the people,doing tma, accept that the,above are true and,choose to do it,anyways,as they a) enjoy it and b) its good for you them


----------



## Headhunter

My god...we're certainly attracting a lot of them lately


----------



## Danny T

To be a fighter. Doesn't take a long time, Just fight.
To be a good fighter takes more time.
To be a highly regarded to some can take a very short time. Just beat someone else who is highly regarded.
To be a good martial artist meaning to learning the art take a lot longer because there is a lot more to learn.
To be an excellent martial artist takes even longer.

Most high level pros in any combat sport have 10 years or more of training under their belt.

Most high level Muay Thai fighters in Thailand start training under the age of 10 many at 5 or 6 and have 200-300 fights by the time they retire in their late teens or early 20's. That gives them 10-12 years before getting into their prime fighting worth for the camps. There are a few that stay for longer but very few.


----------



## MA_Student

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> No, not really. Improving language skills serves a practical purpose. Improving complex kata only makes you good at doing complex kata.


Yeahhhh and what if someone wants to be good at kata? Just because you don't like it doesn't mean others don't. Maybe get off your high horse and realise people have different interests to you...


----------



## MA_Student

Bill Mattocks said:


> .
> You have quite a few opinions, but very little to offer in the way of argument, other than stating 'how you feel'..


We seem to be getting that a lot lately


----------



## Anarax

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> As an atheist and a rationalist, I get irritated when innocent people get duped by some of the traditional nonsense. I see no reason to put a martial art on a pedestal.
> 
> Also, you speak of using TMA for personal development. Ok. But remember the footage of the Chinese wushu master who accepted the challenge of the Chinese MMA fighter and lost in a few seconds? All his many years of "character improvement" flew out the window the moment he even accepted such a challenge.



What does being an Athesist have to do with this? That's so irrelevant to the conversation, yet you feel obligated to inform us of this. You're objectivity is above reproach because you're an atheist? Martial arts is not only about fighting, but about cultivating the human spirit. It's supposed to teach you honor and respect. Did you see the the IDF soldier getting stabbed? That must mean because Krav maga didn't work in that one scenario, the entire system is useless? Of course not, that would be ignorant to think so.


----------



## JR 137

drop bear said:


> You generally won't find a pro fighter with under 10 years of experience. So not really
> 
> And people do train a lot of stuff that don't really help them fight sometimes.


I know, you said "generally," but I couldn't not post this one...


----------



## Hyoho

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an highly regarded in a relatively short amount of time.
> 
> When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> PS
> 
> I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."



Your concept of what we do is very Western.  Of consdering what we do as defence and attack especially in 2017.  Asians practice for the art and cultural values.  They do it beacuse they like it, not because they are good at it.  More of a community activity for its sportlike educational values. I think you are confusing natural ability with mastery. Some with natural abilty will advance quickly but all in all it's age and maturity that brings fruit. The ability to perform an action with excellent timing and minimum lack of effort. The Asian concept on the arts is to practice something you know you never master.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

MA_Student said:


> Yeahhhh and what if someone wants to be good at kata? Just because you don't like it doesn't mean others don't. Maybe get off your high horse and realise people have different interests to you...


 
Just so. I can make tea. Most people can.

However, some spend their lives studying the 'do' of tea making.

But what if my instant tea tastes better to a judge than theirs? Have they wasted their lives, when they could have simply gone to the market?

No.

Because it is less about tea and more about the way.

I study karate. I can fight.

Not as well as some, I have little doubt.

Have I wasted my time?

No, because my study is less about fighting than some might think.

I'm not perfecting my ability to fight, other than in an incidental way. I'm perfecting myself, to the extent that I can.

Those who make tea, arrange flowers, draw characters, arrange sand gardens, same.


----------



## Flying Crane

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> No, not really. Improving language skills serves a practical purpose. Improving complex kata only makes you good at doing complex kata.


Ah.  It sounds to me like you have received poor instruction in kata.

I don't hold that against you, it's not your fault.  It is the fault of your instructor.  There is a lot of that about, actually, so your situation is not remarkable.

This may require a splinter thread, but if you are actually honestly interested in learning what kata really is, and how to approach kata as a viable training tool, there are some very knowledgeable folks here who can have that discussion.

It's been done a number of times already.

However, if you are not honestly interested in learning something, and intend to clutch desperately at your uneducated beliefs, then don't bother.


----------



## CDR_Glock

There are so many styles of martial arts. There are many styles of hand to hand combat.  Many things involve conditioning of the mind, spirit as well as the body.  

Unfortunately, the modern day takes a lot of that and throws it out the window.  Multiple attacks are done by gangs and mobs of people.   The best thing to do is have the proper state of mind and avoid conflict or keep it from escalating.

Martial arts helps in one on one in a ring.  

However outside of a competition without judges and rules, there has to be a system that is simple to execute.  When someone discovers that I'm game.  Krav Maga and Jeet Kune Do seem like the most progressive styles that I have seen.  

As for now, I have a method but it doesn't deal with an empty hand.  Doubt I'll ever give that up over martial arts.  




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## CDR_Glock

There are so many styles of martial arts. There are many styles of hand to hand combat.  Many things involve conditioning of the mind, spirit as well as the body.  

Unfortunately, the modern day takes a lot of that and throws it out the window.  Multiple attacks are done by gangs and mobs of people.   The best thing to do is have the proper state of mind and avoid conflict or keep it from escalating.

Martial arts helps in one on one in a ring.  

However outside of a competition without judges and rules, there has to be a system that is simple to execute.  When someone discovers that I'm game.  Krav Maga and Jeet Kune Do seem like the most progressive styles that I have seen.  

As for now, I have a method but it doesn't deal with an empty hand.  Doubt I'll ever give that up over martial arts.  




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## MA_Student

It's all about what people want. Frankly I don't know If I can fight...if I got in a street fight I don't know how I'd do. Yeah I've been training for a long time in different styles but I don't if I could beat someone in a real street fight and frankly I don't care if it ever happens I'll do what I can to defend myself but it's not something I'm worried about. I don't do martial arts because I want to beat someone or because I hate someone and want to take them out. I do it for fun. I enjoy what I do it's something to do in the evenings and learn some stuff and stay in shape. That's literally all it's about to me. I don't care about fighting I turn up I work hard I practice outside the class I do all that just for myself not so I can win a fight or take out 3 guys in a bar fight it's just not about that for me. I'll spend years learning because I want to spend years learning.


----------



## MA_Student

It's all about what people want. Frankly I don't know If I can fight...if I got in a street fight I don't know how I'd do. Yeah I've been training for a long time in different styles but I don't if I could beat someone in a real street fight and frankly I don't care if it ever happens I'll do what I can to defend myself but it's not something I'm worried about. I don't do martial arts because I want to beat someone or because I hate someone and want to take them out. I do it for fun. I enjoy what I do it's something to do in the evenings and learn some stuff and stay in shape. That's literally all it's about to me. I don't care about fighting I turn up I work hard I practice outside the class I do all that just for myself not so I can win a fight or take out 3 guys in a bar fight it's just not about that for me. I'll spend years learning because I want to spend years learning.


----------



## marques

Some people enjoy the way. When they (or we) know everything (or just stop progressing for some reason) it is no longer interesting or motivating to go somewhere and train.

Some people enjoy the quick final result. And then, what to do? Moving away loosing the skills learned or keep training only for maintenance?

What you get quickly is not art. It is using the natural strength of a young body and memorising a series of movements.

In some styles, the progress is fast at the beginning but does not go far. In other styles, the progress is slow but never ends. Some styles aim one thing, some styles aim another.


----------



## Flying Crane

MA_Student said:


> It's all about what people want. Frankly I don't know If I can fight...if I got in a street fight I don't know how I'd do. Yeah I've been training for a long time in different styles but I don't if I could beat someone in a real street fight and frankly I don't care if it ever happens I'll do what I can to defend myself but it's not something I'm worried about. I don't do martial arts because I want to beat someone or because I hate someone and want to take them out. I do it for fun. I enjoy what I do it's something to do in the evenings and learn some stuff and stay in shape. That's literally all it's about to me. I don't care about fighting I turn up I work hard I practice outside the class I do all that just for myself not so I can win a fight or take out 3 guys in a bar fight it's just not about that for me. I'll spend years learning because I want to spend years learning.


Yeah.

Honestly, when people spend all their time thinking about fighting and how they need to prepare themselves for the possibility of being attacked, my paranoia sniffer starts to ping.

Sure, the need for self defense is a genuine possibility, and skills to handle that ought to be part and parcel of martial training.

However, it definitely does not need to be obsessively on your mind all the time, and can certainly take a distant third or fourth or fifth place on the list of reasons why one likes to train.


----------



## Martial D

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an excellent fighter in a relatively short amount of time.
> 
> When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> PS
> 
> I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."


Let's see. The best boxers have been doing it their whole lives. I've never heard of an elite boxer that has less than a decade of training.

BJJ black belts take literally forever and a day to earn, and are purely performance based.

Etcetera ad infinitum.

Sure. Someone that has been training towards combat or competition for a short time can beat someone that has been training things unrelated to combat or competition for a long time, but that's just pointing out the obvious isn't it?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Anarax said:


> What does being an Athesist have to do with this? That's so irrelevant to the conversation, yet you feel obligated to inform us of this. You're objectivity is above reproach because you're an atheist?


An atheist, a vegan and a crossfitter walked into a bar. I know this because they informed everyone in the bar as they walked through the door.


----------



## Buka

Martial Arts shouldn't take years to learn. I'm from the government and I'm here to help. The check is in the mail. It's only a cold sore. Don't go swimming after you eat. The world is full of wise young men. 

Just call me Aesop. Or A-hole, that will work, too.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah.
> 
> Honestly, when people spend all their time thinking about fighting and how they need to prepare themselves for the possibility of being attacked, my paranoia sniffer starts to ping.
> 
> Sure, the need for self defense is a genuine possibility, and skills to handle that ought to be part and parcel of martial training.
> 
> However, it definitely does not need to be obsessively on your mind all the time, and can certainly take a distant third or fourth or fifth place on the list of reasons why one likes to train.



Cans and cans of food and no can opener.  I've seen it.


----------



## hoshin1600

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> As an atheist and a rationalist


ok your a rationalist..*ill give you some rational.*



Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> I get irritated when innocent people get duped by some of the traditional nonsense.


how about when the un-experienced get duped into a philosophical narrative by modern nonsense????



Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> I see no reason to put a martial art on a pedestal.


i see no reason to put Krav or Jeet Kun Do or anything else on a pedestal even if it is modern or appears simple. 



Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts


this phenomenon *is not unique *to asian martial arts.  its part of the human condition.  its the way the human brain works.
https://blog.bufferapp.com/lessons-...actice-from-moz...art-picasso-and-kobe-bryant

_"How long does it take to become elite at your craft?......That’s what John Hayes, a cognitive psychology professor at Carnegie Mellon University, wanted to know.
Hayes started his research by examining successful composers....Hayes mapped out the timeline of each composer’s career and calculated how long they had been working before they created their popular works. What he discovered was that virtually every single “masterwork” was written after year ten of the composer’s career. (Out of 500 pieces there were only three exceptions, which were written in years eight and nine_.)"

Study after study shows that it takes about 10 years to become fully competent at *any* skill or craft.

how long does it take to be competent at Muay Thai????
Muay Thai Kru: What is means to be Kru

_"There are five instructor levels within the World Thai Boxing Association (starting with the most senior):"
_

_Ajarn – 25+ years of active teaching_
_Senior Instructor – 20+ years of active teaching_
_Kru – Full Instructor – 12 years of active teaching_
_Kru – Associate Instructor – 6 years of active teaching_
_Kru – Apprentice Instructor (Student Level III) – 3 years of active teaching_
So to become an instructor (meaning your competent at the craft)  takes 12 years.

there are four stages to competence.
_"The Four Stages of Learning provides a model for learning. It suggests that individuals are initially unaware of how little they know, "_
Four stages of competence - Wikipedia

Perhaps you are at the beginning stage?





Combat competence is primarily a function of the brain. the mistake made by many people is that they compare combative sport to actual combat.  because of the way the brain functions the reptilian part of the brain (the Limbic system) is not engaged while doing sport martial arts.  to know and remember martial art skills in the prefrontal cortex and to have that show up during actual combat is not the same thing.
_"the limbic system can independently respond to the world, like when we react to threatening situations. This occurs at the subconscious level, when the amygdala—the fear and anxiety response center—compares data from the world with the hippocampus, which is the memory database of experiences. If the incoming information corresponds to a threat that has been tagged as negative or dangerous, the amygdala immediately commands the body into action." _
What Combat Leaders Need to Know About Neuroscience - The Military Leader


it takes more time to "hard wire" your martial art learned responses so that they are usable during an actual threat.  the Limbic system will want to override all normal brain function and it takes a lot of practice and experience to get the prefrontal cortex involved.

_When the limbic system is heavily engaged, as it is during the high threat stress of combat, it will quite literally steal fuel from the prefrontal cortex, thus handicapping a leader’s ability to combat the situation with cognition.

_
i would suggest your superficial learning that takes a short amount of time is no more useful for actual fighting as reading a book.



Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition


your post shows your opinion is that because the training methodology of traditional karate takes longer than a few months, it is somehow a bad thing.
clearly you have no understanding of the culture of the Okinawan and Japanese martial arts.  *what makes you think it is supposed to be fast??*
the training methodology of karate from the Okinawan perspective is SUPPOSED  to take time.  
i would propose you have no understanding of the karate traditions and culture.  one of the top objectives in a martial tradition is continuation.  similar to the continuation of a species the evolutionary continuation of a martial tradition is its number one priority.   it is not an evolutionary advantage to teach just the superficial, and pass on less than complete understanding of the art. to do so would mean certain death to the art within 2 generations.  so certain cultural protocols have been ingrained into the styles and systems.  these protocols are so imbeded that most people do not see them for what they are,  a method to restrict propagation of the art to those who posses the highest likelyhood of passing the complete art to another generation in its entirety.
the idea of quick learning is completely counter productive to the evolutionary continuation of the art.  

some protocols

restriction of admission.   we dont want undesirable people learning the art
restriction of knowledge.  in the beginning there was often a test of the students resolve and commitment
restriction of acknowledged competence.   only selected individuals were given the status as teacher and full competency

that being said i will admit that here in 2017 the arts have had a side effect in the evolutionary progression that is exactly because of the break down of the continuation protocol.   American students who do not posses the entire scope of understanding and perhaps curriculum.  if someone grants themselves 11th degree grand poobah  rank,, what happens is the smaller curriculum get stretched out and passed off as complete. then the next generation does the same thing and slowly the body of knowledge shrinks.  this is one reason things may actually take longer then really necessary.  
another is that the American students want instant gratification and in an effort to please them (like a child) the instructors would expand the original curriculum so that the American student was constantly learning something he thought was new but was in fact a rehashed lesson or concept that was just presented in a different way.



Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> it seems like a waste of time to me.



fine ... no one is saying your not allowed to have an opinion.
however you are not the martial art police and you are not qualified to make any kind of determination of that sort.

the issue seems to be that you equate a given length of time to the level of competence or in this case incompetence.  your assumption that a longer time means the student is getting ripped off somehow is totally a lack of understanding on your part.  if someone was looking for self defense in a short amount of time they would buy a gun.  in fact if the goal was 100 % about the ability and competency of self defense then you would not study martial arts at all!!!!  you would purchase a fire arm and be done with it.

so there is your rationale ... go buy a gun.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an highly regarded in a relatively short amount of time.


To be a good fighter, you have to have the following tools in your toolbox:

1. 10 different kind of punches - jab, cross, uppercut, hook, hammer fist, back fist, hay-maker, palm strike, ...
2. 20 different kind of kicks - front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, side kick, crescent kick, back kick, jump kick, jump spin kick, ...
3. 40 different kind of locks - finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, spin lock, ankle lock, ...
4. 250 different kind of throws - hip throw, single leg, double legs, leg twist, leg lift, leg break, spring, cut, inner hook, outer hook, scooping kick, shoulder throw, ... (The throwing art by itself will take your life time to master it).
5. N different kind of ground skills - side mount, full mount, arm bar, leg bar, choke, ...

You still have to add the following skills into your tool box:

How to

- counter those tools.
- counter those counters.
- set up the 1st tool.
- use 1 tool to set up the other tool.
- ...

So far, the "weapon" training has not included yet. IMO, even one life time is not enough to fill your toolbox "completely".


----------



## Charlemagne

double post...


----------



## Charlemagne

If you are devoting 2-3 hours a day, as people did in times past, then it won't take a decade to master the art.  Joe Lewis got his Black Belt in a year, but he so by training 8 hours a day.  Those guys you are referring to who become MT fighters in a relatively short time do so by training multiple hours a day.  

Can people who have never picked up a golf club in the past become a scratch golfer by only practicing golf 3-4 hours a week for a couple of years?  Of course not.  Why would one expect to be an accomplished martial artist by doing the same thing?  

The bottom line is that, if you are like the average person, who can only devote a couple of nights a week to training and maybe an hour or two over the weekend, then any martial art that is actually worth learning is going to take a long time for you to do so.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Charlemagne said:


> If you are devoting 2-3 hours a day, as people did in times past, then it won't take a decade to master the art.  Joe Lewis got his Black Belt in a year, but he so by training 8 hours a day.  Those guys you are referring to who become MT fighters in a relatively short time do so by training multiple hours a day.
> 
> Can people who have never picked up a golf club in the past become a scratch golfer by only practicing golf 3-4 hours a week for a couple of years?  Of course not.  Why would one expect to be an accomplished martial artist by doing the same thing?
> 
> The bottom line is that, if you are like the average person, who can only devote a couple of nights a week to training and maybe an hour or two over the weekend, then any martial art that is actually worth learning is going to take a long time for you to do so.


A good example of this is the 12-week program @drop bear 's gym (for clarity: not his, where he trains) does. The time put in would be similar to what an average hobbyist student would put in over nearly 2 years, all compressed. And that compression has some benefits (the fitness commitment for that time has a lot more benefit than if spread out over those 2 years, for instance). So, I'd consider it similar to 2-3 years of hobbyist training. And that's to get to the first fight. It's a great program, from the way I've heard it described, and the folks going through it show a lot of guts. I'd say folks who go through it are probably a different breed, from a commitment standpoint. And it takes them that many hours to go from novice to fighter.


----------



## Buka

All of my instructors have said "_It takes about ten years to learn how to fight_."  So, I'm going with that.

But, alas, if that's indeed true, I'm on a really slow learning curve. Good thing I packed a lunch.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

CDR_Glock said:


> However outside of a competition without judges and rules, there has to be a system that is simple to execute. When someone discovers that I'm game. Krav Maga and Jeet Kune Do seem like the most progressive styles that I have seen.


There's nothing terribly unique about those systems. We normally refer to them here as martial arts, just as we refer to boxing and wrestling as martial arts. Some are simpler than others. Some market themselves on simplicity, and others don't. There's little I've seen in Krav Maga that doesn't exist similarly in arts I've been exposed to. The concept of Jeet Kune Do isn't unique to Jeet Kune Do - many of us (even in TMA) have a similar attitude of not being constrained by a system, finding what works and using that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To be a good fighter, you have to have the following tools in your toolbox:
> 
> 1. 10 different kind of punches - jab, cross, uppercut, hook, hammer fist, back fist, hay-maker, palm strike, ...
> 2. 20 different kind of kicks - front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, side kick, crescent kick, back kick, jump kick, jump spin kick, ...
> 3. 40 different kind of locks - finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, spin lock, ankle lock, ...
> 4. 250 different kind of throws - hip throw, single leg, double legs, leg twist, leg lift, leg break, spring, cut, inner hook, outer hook, scooping kick, shoulder throw, ... (The throwing art by itself will take your life time to master it).
> 5. N different kind of ground skills - side mount, full mount, arm bar, leg bar, choke, ...
> 
> You still have to add the following skills into your tool box:
> 
> How to
> 
> - counter those tools.
> - counter those counters.
> - set up the 1st tool.
> - use 1 tool to set up the other tool.
> - ...
> 
> So far, the "weapon" training has not included yet. IMO, even one life time is not enough to fill your toolbox "completely".


That's far more different kinds of things that I'd ever consider learnable to competence for most of us, much less necessary.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> That's far more different kinds of things that I'd ever consider learnable to competence for most of us, much less necessary.


I have not even included the "basic training" yet.


----------



## jobo

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To be a good fighter, you have to have the following tools in your toolbox:
> 
> 1. 10 different kind of punches - jab, cross, uppercut, hook, hammer fist, back fist, hay-maker, palm strike, ...
> 2. 20 different kind of kicks - front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, side kick, crescent kick, back kick, jump kick, jump spin kick, ...
> 3. 40 different kind of locks - finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, spin lock, ankle lock, ...
> 4. 250 different kind of throws - hip throw, single leg, double legs, leg twist, leg lift, leg break, spring, cut, inner hook, outer hook, scooping kick, shoulder throw, ... (The throwing art by itself will take your life time to master it).
> 5. N different kind of ground skills - side mount, full mount, arm bar, leg bar, choke, ...
> 
> You still have to add the following skills into your tool box:
> 
> How to
> 
> - counter those tools.
> - counter those counters.
> - set up the 1st tool.
> - use 1 tool to set up the other tool.
> - ...
> 
> So far, the "weapon" training has not included yet. IMO, even one life time is not enough to fill your toolbox "completely".



that's somewhat over the top, a few punches a few kicks and a few throws/ locks are all that are needed, with of,course the physical abilities to make them work.

we are back to the dilemma, the op identified, to be a " good" fighter, takes not a great time, and the comparative mastery of,only a  few skills,are needed,

to master an entire ma, i's another proposition entirely


----------



## paitingman

For me, TKD and other traditional karate styles are very much small-margin-of-error approaches to fighting.
It is a bag of very high precision tools, that take skills and experience to use properly.
Alternatively you may use simpler tools and take a more robust approach to it (and achieve great results as well)
It's like I think WSL said about Wing Chun : "VT(in my case TKD) is a good horse than few people can ride" something like that.

These techniques for me require extreme focus and discipline. If you cannot maintain a Zen-esque composure you will find it difficult to use these precise skills. Years of intense training can bring this out.
Or you can do like some and just dive into an art and learn it's techniques, master them even, and have a blast dedicating yourself to it and not develop this "fighting calm" because you do not need it and the fighting holds little interest to you. This is also a very worthwhile path


----------



## jobo

Charlemagne said:


> If you are devoting 2-3 hours a day, as people did in times past, then it won't take a decade to master the art.  Joe Lewis got his Black Belt in a year, but he so by training 8 hours a day.  Those guys you are referring to who become MT fighters in a relatively short time do so by training multiple hours a day.
> 
> Can people who have never picked up a golf club in the past become a scratch golfer by only practicing golf 3-4 hours a week for a couple of years?  Of course not.  Why would one expect to be an accomplished martial artist by doing the same thing?
> 
> The bottom line is that, if you are like the average person, who can only devote a couple of nights a week to training and maybe an hour or two over the weekend, then any martial art that is actually worth learning is going to take a long time for you to do so.


well possibly so, on the golf front, if they ate a good athelete in another ball sports they all ready have much of the abilities they need for golf, they just have to refine them,


----------



## paitingman

For me, TKD and other traditional karate styles are very much small-margin-of-error approaches to fighting.
It is a bag of very high precision tools, that take skills and experience to use properly.
Alternatively you may use simpler tools and take a more robust approach to it (and achieve great results as well)
It's like I think WSL said about Wing Chun : "VT(in my case TKD) is a good horse than few people can ride" something like that.

These techniques for me require extreme focus and discipline. If you cannot maintain a Zen-esque composure you will find it difficult to use these precise skills. Years of intense training can bring this out.
Or you can do like some and just dive into an art and learn it's techniques, master them even, and have a blast dedicating yourself to it and not develop this "fighting calm" because you do not need it and the fighting holds little interest to you. This is also a very worthwhile path


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> well possibly so, on the golf front, if they ate a good athelete in another ball sports they all ready have much of the abilities they need for golf, they just have to refine them,


I know what you meant, Jobo, but the unintentional cannibalism reference is pretty funny - reminds me of a scene from the play _On the Verge_. A cannibal in the play takes on the characteristics of the person he eats.


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> I know what you meant, Jobo, but the unintentional cannibalism reference is pretty funny - reminds me of a scene from the play _On the Verge_. A cannibal in the play takes on the characteristics of the person he eats.


yes, should have proof read that


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> That last part is key - I firmly believe most martial arts contain stuff for people like me, so we can continue to train after we reach some reasonable competency with the core techniques. After that point, especially as I age, I need something to chew on and dig deeper into. I think there's a very slight improvement (if any) in my ability to defend myself when I get better at some of these things, but they are fun to learn, and they keep me active in my training. So, the real "fight prep" value of them is that they keep me coming back, so I don't get rusty. Wait, I think I just argued myself into disagreeing. Damnit!



There is definitely that. And there is again this issue of unrealistic feedback in training.

A lot of what works at half pace and power don't work as well at full pace.

The same way a jittser can be caught by a new person who is a spaz. So can a lot of stylists if they have focused on the wrong elements.

I am helping out the boxers train for comps at the moment and they like to spar pretty much flat knacker. And at that pace I can't really see punches coming in time to react to them.

This is a massive shift a fighting methodology.


----------



## Flying Crane

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To be a good fighter, you have to have the following tools in your toolbox:
> 
> 1. 10 different kind of punches - jab, cross, uppercut, hook, hammer fist, back fist, hay-maker, palm strike, ...
> 2. 20 different kind of kicks - front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, side kick, crescent kick, back kick, jump kick, jump spin kick, ...
> 3. 40 different kind of locks - finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, spin lock, ankle lock, ...
> 4. 250 different kind of throws - hip throw, single leg, double legs, leg twist, leg lift, leg break, spring, cut, inner hook, outer hook, scooping kick, shoulder throw, ... (The throwing art by itself will take your life time to master it).
> 5. N different kind of ground skills - side mount, full mount, arm bar, leg bar, choke, ...
> 
> You still have to add the following skills into your tool box:
> 
> How to
> 
> - counter those tools.
> - counter those counters.
> - set up the 1st tool.
> - use 1 tool to set up the other tool.
> - ...
> 
> So far, the "weapon" training has not included yet. IMO, even one life time is not enough to fill your toolbox "completely".


You are joking, yes?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Flying Crane said:


> You are joking, yes?


I'm not joking. If you don't train any of those tools, how do you know how to counter it?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm not joking. If you don't train any of those tools, how do you know how to counter it?


I can counter a lot of throws I can't do.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

jobo said:


> a few punches a few kicks and a few throws/ locks are all that are needed ...


Assume it takes about 3 months (I believe it should take at least 6 months) to develop a single tool. Also assume you need at least the following tools,

1. jab,
2. cross,
3. uppercut,
4. hook,
5. front kick,
6. side kick,
7. roundhouse kick,
8. hip throw,
9. leg break,
10. single leg,
11. double legs,
12. finger lock,
13. wrist lock,
14. elbow lock,
15. shoulder lock.
16. full mount,
17. side mount,
18. arm bar,
19. leg bar,
20. choke.

That's already 5 years minimum there.


----------



## jobo

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Assume it takes about 3 months (I believe it should take at least 6 months) to develop a single tool. Also assume you need at least the following tools,
> 
> 1. jab,
> 2. cross,
> 3. uppercut,
> 4. hook,
> 5. front kick,
> 6. side kick,
> 7. roundhouse kick,
> 8. hip throw,
> 9. leg break,
> 10. single leg,
> 11. double legs,
> 12. finger lock,
> 13. wrist lock,
> 14. elbow lock,
> 15. shoulder lock.
> 16. full mount,
> 17. side mount,
> 18. arm bar,
> 19. leg bar,
> 20. choke.
> 
> That's already 5 years minimum there.


that's only if you learn them one at a time, you really don't have to spend three months doing upper cuts, before moving on to jabs, so all punches in three months, all kicks in another, you are all ready well on your way.

nb it really doesn't take three months to go from " couldn't bruise an apple" to knocking someone over


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

jobo said:


> that's only if you learn them one at a time, you really don't have to spend three months doing upper cuts, before moving on to jabs, so all punches in three months, all kicks in another, you are all ready well on your way.
> 
> nb it really doesn't take three months to go from " couldn't bruise an apple" to knocking someone over


In another skill development thread, I don't agree that you should try to develop more than 1 tool at any time period.


----------



## jobo

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In another skill development thread, I don't agree that you should try to develop more than 1 tool at any time period.


they are not tools, the punches for instance,are,simple movement patterns, you may not believe that a person can develop three simple movement patterns in three months, but that is true,

are you really going to make some spend 3months doing nothing bit jabs, om surprised you have an,students

nb i learnt to drive in  weeks, how many movement patterns is that?

you would have,someone just working the indicator for,12weeks


----------



## jobo

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In another skill development thread, I don't agree that you should try to develop more than 1 tool at any time period.


they are not tools, the punches for instance,are,simple movement patterns, you may not believe that a person can develop three simple movement patterns in three months, but that is true,

are you really going to make some spend 3months doing nothing bit jabs, om surprised you have an,students

nb i learnt to drive in 8( hours)  weeks, how many movement patterns is that?

you would have,someone just working the indicator for,12weeks


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Assume it takes about 3 months (I believe it should take at least 6 months) to develop a single tool. Also assume you need at least the following tools,
> 
> 1. jab,
> 2. cross,
> 3. uppercut,
> 4. hook,
> 5. front kick,
> 6. side kick,
> 7. roundhouse kick,
> 8. hip throw,
> 9. leg break,
> 10. single leg,
> 11. double legs,
> 12. finger lock,
> 13. wrist lock,
> 14. elbow lock,
> 15. shoulder lock.
> 16. full mount,
> 17. side mount,
> 18. arm bar,
> 19. leg bar,
> 20. choke.
> 
> That's already 5 years minimum there.


Based on this 3 month idea, and that you need to master 320 techniques (not including your '5' without a specific number), it would take 80 years to become simply a good fighter. And by the time you are at the end you would have forgotten the beginning techniques since they don't all build on each other. So basically it is impossible to become a 'good' fighter from your assumption.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Assume it takes about 3 months (I believe it should take at least 6 months) to develop a single tool. Also assume you need at least the following tools,
> 
> 1. jab,
> 2. cross,
> 3. uppercut,
> 4. hook,
> 5. front kick,
> 6. side kick,
> 7. roundhouse kick,
> 8. hip throw,
> 9. leg break,
> 10. single leg,
> 11. double legs,
> 12. finger lock,
> 13. wrist lock,
> 14. elbow lock,
> 15. shoulder lock.
> 16. full mount,
> 17. side mount,
> 18. arm bar,
> 19. leg bar,
> 20. choke.
> 
> That's already 5 years minimum there.


Based on this 3 month idea, and that you need to master 320 techniques (not including your '5' without a specific number), it would take 80 years to become simply a good fighter. And by the time you are at the end you would have forgotten the beginning techniques since they don't all build on each other. So basically it is impossible to become a 'good' fighter from your assumption.


----------



## Dirty Dog

jobo said:


> that's only if you learn them one at a time, you really don't have to spend three months doing upper cuts, before moving on to jabs, so all punches in three months, all kicks in another, you are all ready well on your way.
> 
> nb it really doesn't take three months to go from " couldn't bruise an apple" to knocking someone over



And there is a lot more to martial art training, to most of us, than merely knocking someone over.


----------



## jobo

Dirty Dog said:


> And there is a lot more to martial art training, to most of us, than merely knocking someone over.


his post was how long it takes to be a good fighter , not master ma...

if you cant knock someone down they you are not a good puncher


----------



## Dirty Dog

jobo said:


> his post was how long it takes to be a good fighter , not master ma...



"Martial arts shouldn't take years to learn" is the title of the thread. Not "knocking someone down shouldn't take years to learn."
Like you, the OP seems to think there's nothing more to martial arts training than knocking someone down. 
That tiny subset of what martial arts training includes doesn't take years to learn. 
And some people never learn anything more than that. Sad.


----------



## drop bear

Dirty Dog said:


> And there is a lot more to martial art training, to most of us, than merely knocking someone over.



A lot more is one thing. Not learning to knock a person over at all is another.

You could learn a bunch of life affirming skills from playing the violin rather than fighting. But if you did you would not be considered shallow if at the end of the process you wanted to be able to play the violin.


----------



## drop bear

And why is everything about martial arts about not delivering. There is something really wrong with that.


----------



## Dirty Dog

drop bear said:


> A lot more is one thing. Not learning to knock a person over at all is another.
> 
> You could learn a bunch of life affirming skills from playing the violin rather than fighting. But if you did you would not be considered shallow if at the end of the process you wanted to be able to play the violin.



You can learn the basic fingering to play the violin in quite a short time. I have a daughter who played her way through college with the Ft Worth Symphony who can teach you, even. 
But she'll also tell you that it will take a lot more time and effort to learn to really PLAY the violin than just learning the fingering for the notes.
Same for martial arts.
If you're content with just learning the fingering (or to knock someone over), then that's fine. You're missing out on an awful lot, but that's your loss, and I won't lose any sleep over it.


----------



## drop bear

Dirty Dog said:


> You can learn the basic fingering to play the violin in quite a short time. I have a daughter who played her way through college with the Ft Worth Symphony who can teach you, even.
> But she'll also tell you that it will take a lot more time and effort to learn to really PLAY the violin than just learning the fingering for the notes.
> Same for martial arts.
> If you're content with just learning the fingering (or to knock someone over), then that's fine. You're missing out on an awful lot, but that's your loss, and I won't lose any sleep over it.



So did she learn to play the violin so she could play the violin? Or was it a spiritural journey to develp herself as a person?

I mean would you recomended not actually learning the violin just, I dont know, some sort of concept violin training?

There is seriously something weird with this whole mindset for me. It seems to be a striving not to deliver. Not only not deliver on fighting skills. But not deliver on anything.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

jobo said:


> are you really going to make some spend 3months doing nothing bit jabs, om surprised you have any students.


I have seen someone who spent

- 6 months to develop a "side kick".
- 6 months to develop a "single leg".
- 2 years to develop a "hip throw".
- ...

To run a MA business is different from to train just few fighters. In MA, you will need to develop many

- generals (door guarding techniques - finish moves), and
- soldiers (general techniques).

The more generals that you have developed, the better fighter you will be.


----------



## Dirty Dog

drop bear said:


> So did she learn to play the violin so she could play the violin? Or was it a spiritural journey to develp herself as a person?



She learned to play so she could play. Because she loves music. And music, to most, is a lot more than just the noise you get from someone who thinks just learning the fingerings is enough.



> I mean would you recomended not actually learning the violin just, I dont know, some sort of concept violin training?
> There is seriously something weird with this whole mindset for me. It seems to be a striving not to deliver. Not only not deliver on fighting skills. But not deliver on anything.



Sorry, but you're babbling. Where have I ever said anything remotely like the above nonsense?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

kempodisciple said:


> Based on this 3 month idea, and that you need to master 320 techniques (not including your '5' without a specific number), it would take 80 years to become simply a good fighter. And by the time you are at the end you would have forgotten the beginning techniques since they don't all build on each other. So basically it is impossible to become a 'good' fighter from your assumption.


To complete that toolbox is impossible. Of course that's the extreme. It's used as an example to show the OP that there are 5 categories techniques that's needed to develop.

1. punch,
2. kick,
3. lock,
4. throw,
5. ground game.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To complete that toolbox is impossible. Of course that's the extreme. It's used as an example to show the OP that there are 5 categories techniques that's needed to develop.
> 
> 1. punch,
> 2. kick,
> 3. lock,
> 4. throw,
> 5. ground game.


That's fair, although I would argue that this might be needed to 'master' X martial art, but isn't needed to be a good fighter. What's more important is having reliable tools, along with counters for techniques in each category.
For instance, someone could be bad at throws/takedowns, and not get them well. However, that person could have good takedown defense, and if they do get thrown, they have good ground game. Because of those to things, they may not need to know how to throw.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To complete that toolbox is impossible. Of course that's the extreme. It's used as an example to show the OP that there are 5 categories techniques that's needed to develop.
> 
> 1. punch,
> 2. kick,
> 3. lock,
> 4. throw,
> 5. ground game.


That's fair, although I would argue that this might be needed to 'master' X martial art, but isn't needed to be a good fighter. What's more important is having reliable tools, along with counters for techniques in each category.
For instance, someone could be bad at throws/takedowns, and not get them well. However, that person could have good takedown defense, and if they do get thrown, they have good ground game. Because of those to things, they may not need to know how to throw.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> that's only if you learn them one at a time, you really don't have to spend three months doing upper cuts, before moving on to jabs, so all punches in three months, all kicks in another, you are all ready well on your way.
> 
> nb it really doesn't take three months to go from " couldn't bruise an apple" to knocking someone over


For kicks, it can take longer for some folks, but your basic premise is solid.


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> For kicks, it can take longer for some folks, but your basic premise is solid.


yes me for instance, but that,a mobility issue as much as a cns co ordination / motor pattern issue. Some one much younger with reasonable mobility and motor skills,should be,able to pick it up much much quicker.

i see the the issue of getting from point a) to point b) to be the development from a single reasonably exicuted skill, a kick or a punch for instance to a co ordonated flow of movement where you flow seemlessly from one skill to the next .
or in boxing talk,, combinations

and that's where kata,starts to have,a value greater than flow,drills


----------



## Flying Crane

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm not joking. If you don't train any of those tools, how do you know how to counter it?


To be a good fighter, you need about two kinds of punches that you are good with, the ability to use them in combination, and the will and the willingness to do so, i.e. Raw aggression.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Flying Crane said:


> To be a good fighter, you need about two kinds of punches that you are good with, the ability to use them in combination, and the will and the willingness to do so, i.e. Raw aggression.


For a more rounded approach (of arguable importance), a couple of takedowns are good to have. The importance of takedown defense would be less arguable, IMO.


----------



## Fuhrer Drumpf

marques said:


> Some people enjoy the way. When they (or we) know everything (or just stop progressing for some reason) it is no longer interesting or motivating to go somewhere and train.
> 
> Some people enjoy the quick final result. And then, what to do? Moving away loosing the skills learned or keep training only for maintenance?
> 
> What you get quickly is not art. It is using the natural strength of a young body and memorising a series of movements.
> 
> In some styles, the progress is fast at the beginning but does not go far. In other styles, the progress is slow but never ends. Some styles aim one thing, some styles aim another.



It's posts like this that make understand Bruce Lee's frustration with all the "masters."


----------



## Fuhrer Drumpf

Flying Crane said:


> Ah.  It sounds to me like you have received poor instruction in kata.
> 
> I don't hold that against you, it's not your fault.  It is the fault of your instructor.  There is a lot of that about, actually, so your situation is not remarkable.
> 
> This may require a splinter thread, but if you are actually honestly interested in learning what kata really is, and how to approach kata as a viable training tool, there are some very knowledgeable folks here who can have that discussion.
> 
> It's been done a number of times already.
> 
> However, if you are not honestly interested in learning something, and intend to clutch desperately at your uneducated beliefs, then don't bother.



You can't accept what I say, so you insist that I must have learned "false kata."

Reality: Kata exists because, once upon a time, martials artists--like most people--were illiterate and needed a way to record concepts. This is the origin of kata. There's nothing magical or "ancient Asian secrety" about it


----------



## Fuhrer Drumpf

Flying Crane said:


> Ah.  It sounds to me like you have received poor instruction in kata.
> 
> I don't hold that against you, it's not your fault.  It is the fault of your instructor.  There is a lot of that about, actually, so your situation is not remarkable.
> 
> This may require a splinter thread, but if you are actually honestly interested in learning what kata really is, and how to approach kata as a viable training tool, there are some very knowledgeable folks here who can have that discussion.
> 
> It's been done a number of times already.
> 
> However, if you are not honestly interested in learning something, and intend to clutch desperately at your uneducated beliefs, then don't bother.



You can't accept what I say, so you insist that I must have learned "false kata."

Reality: Kata exists because, once upon a time, martials artists--like most people--were illiterate and needed a way to record concepts. This is the origin of kata. There's nothing magical or "ancient Asian secrety" about it 


kempodisciple said:


> An atheist, a vegan and a crossfitter walked into a bar. I know this because they informed everyone in the bar as they walked through the door.



A Xtian sailed to the New World. I know this because blood was spilled.


----------



## jobo

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> It's posts like this that make understand Bruce Lee's frustration with all the "masters."


Bruce who?, never heard of him,


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> A Xtian sailed to the New World. I know this because blood was spilled.


There's no need for that - has nothing to do with the topic of this thread or this forum.


----------



## Hyoho

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> You can't accept what I say, so you insist that I must have learned "false kata."
> 
> Reality: Kata exists because, once upon a time, martials artists--like most people--were illiterate and needed a way to record concepts. This is the origin of kata. There's nothing magical or "ancient Asian secrety" about it



What on earth are you talking about. To quote a senior Iaido teacher but in application. _*Kata*_ (型 or 形 _literally: form_), a Japanese word, are detailed choreographed patterns of movements practiced either solo or in pairs.

Kata are comprised of the set elements of a waza *技 *read as *わざ. *Waza is a tried and tested technique. 

We can either break down the waza into kata or make up a kata to practice certain fundamentals.  Kata can apply to other practices and is the 'Japanese way' based on improvement rather than inovation. You can teach robot to do 'kata". It has always worked and still does. Kata is why Japan is so successful.

It has no relationship to falseness. It is what it is.

If you want practice an art devoid of feelings be my guest. But its the other elements or what we do in in MA and its culture and philosophy that make it's repetiton interesting. Budo/Kobujutsu is a 'living thing".


----------



## Hyoho

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> You can't accept what I say, so you insist that I must have learned "false kata."
> 
> Reality: Kata exists because, once upon a time, martials artists--like most people--were illiterate and needed a way to record concepts. This is the origin of kata. There's nothing magical or "ancient Asian secrety" about it



What on earth are you talking about? To quote a senior Iaido teacher but in application. _*Kata*_ (型 or 形 _literally: form_), a Japanese word, are detailed choreographed patterns of movements practised either solo or in pairs.

Kata are comprised of the set elements of a waza *技 *read as *わざ. *Waza is a tried and tested technique. 

We can either break down the waza into kata or make up a kata to practice certain fundamentals.  Kata can apply to other practices and is the 'Japanese way' based on improvement rather than innovation. You can teach a robot to do 'kata". It has always worked and still does. Kata is why Japan is so successful.

It has no relationship to falseness. It is what it is.

If you want practice an art devoid of feelings be my guest. But its the other elements or what we do in in MA and its culture and philosophy that make it's repetiton interesting. Budo/Kobujutsu is a 'living thing".


----------



## Flying Crane

gpseymour said:


> For a more rounded approach (of arguable importance), a couple of takedowns are good to have. The importance of takedown defense would be less arguable, IMO.


Sure, and add a couple kicks, it's all icing on the cake.  But none of that is strictly necessary


----------



## Flying Crane

gpseymour said:


> For a more rounded approach (of arguable importance), a couple of takedowns are good to have. The importance of takedown defense would be less arguable, IMO.


Sure, and add a couple kicks, it's all icing on the cake.  But. One of that is strictly necessary


Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> You can't accept what I say, so you insist that I must have learned "false kata."
> 
> Reality: Kata exists because, once upon a time, martials artists--like most people--were illiterate and needed a way to record concepts. This is the origin of kata. There's nothing magical or "ancient Asian secrety" about it


i never said there was anything magic or secret about it.  I only say it is a useful training tool.

That you don't understand that, and don't have the training to know how it works, does not change the fact.


----------



## jobo

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> You can't accept what I say, so you insist that I must have learned "false kata."
> 
> Reality: Kata exists because, once upon a time, martials artists--like most people--were illiterate and needed a way to record concepts. This is the origin of kata. There's nothing magical or "ancient Asian secrety" about it
> 
> 
> A Xtian sailed to the New World. I know this because blood was spilled.


if they were illiterate, that wouldn't stop them drawing pictures would it?


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> if they were illiterate, that wouldn't stop them drawing pictures would it?



Wasn't there those monks who could remember everything?

Oral traditions are pretty common. I don't think pictures were as effective.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> Wasn't there those monks who could remember everything?
> 
> Oral traditions are pretty common. I don't think pictures were as effective.


its a,well establish fact that one picture is worth one thousand words, this was,decided after one of the monks got brain damage and a whole kata was lost for ever


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Flying Crane said:


> Sure, and add a couple kicks, it's all icing on the cake.  But none of that is strictly necessary


I'd argue otherwise. If you can't defend takedowns, your likelihood of succeeding in a fight goes down dramatically if the other guy decides to take you down and is even somewhat athletic (bonus points if he played American football, rugby, or hockey).


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

drop bear said:


> Oral traditions are pretty common. I don't think pictures were as effective.


Agree! The "oral tradition" for:

- wrist lock is to "raise up the elbow joint while sink down the wrist joint".
- head lock is to "point your elbow joint straight down and put your opponent's head on your chest".
- ...

When you look at a picture, you may not be able to notice it.


----------



## jobo

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! The "oral tradition" for:
> 
> - wrist lock is to "raise up the elbow joint while sink down the wrist joint".
> - head lock is to "point your elbow joint straight down and put your opponent's head on your chest".
> - ...
> 
> When you look at a picture, you may not be able to notice it.


shouldn't you get glasses or indeed a bigger picture?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

jobo said:


> shouldn't you get glasses or indeed a bigger picture?


Most of the time, a new student won't be able to get the most important information out of a picture.

What's wrong in the following picture?


----------



## jobo

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Most of the time, a new student won't be able to get the most important information out of a picture.
> 
> What's wrong in the following picture?


my point was pictures are a better,way of storing information for the illiterates, the fact that you are,writing means that doesn't apply to you


----------



## Flying Crane

gpseymour said:


> I'd argue otherwise. If you can't defend takedowns, your likelihood of succeeding in a fight goes down dramatically if the other guy decides to take you down and is even somewhat athletic (bonus points if he played American football, rugby, or hockey).


Ok, feel how you like about it.  I stand by my position:  very little is actually needed to be a good fighter, if you have the will and the spirit.


----------



## Danny T

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's wrong in the following picture?


Terrible example of o soto gari.


----------



## Balrog

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> But remember the footage of the Chinese wushu master who accepted the challenge of the Chinese MMA fighter and lost in a few seconds? All his many years of "character improvement" flew out the window the moment he even accepted such a challenge.


You talking about this guy?  He's not a master of anything but con-job-do.


----------



## EddieCyrax

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> It's posts like this that make understand Bruce Lee's frustration with all the "masters."



You do realize that Bruce Lee's Jun Fan Gung Fu later to be commercialized as Jeet Kune Do was basically (over simplified here) his interpretation of Wing Chun.

He had a back ground in TMA, and to that fact incorporated many pieces of different styles into his version.  He never discredited the TMA for their lack of capability, but only the rigid belief one could not learn from other styles that was prevalent back then.

It sounds like your knowledge of Mr. Lee is limited to his movies and a few interviews....


----------



## EddieCyrax

double post


----------



## EddieCyrax

triple post.... sorry


----------



## ShortBridge

You can buy a guitar in a pawn shop and join a garage band. You might even become rich and famous. But to "master" playing the guitar takes years...maybe a lifetime. So, the lead singer of ...I don't know "Modest Mouse"...may say "it isn't necessary", but that's a very limited perspective, like the 15 year old Thai Boxer.

I can read a book or watch a YouTube video and learn to install or repair a light fixture, but that doesn't make me a master electrician. For my purposes, it wasn't necessary to be, but that doesn't mean that it's not a real thing or that it isn't valuable.

I can hack together a website or a phone app, but that doesn't make a computer scientist. 

...etc...ad nauseam...

We're living the age of the death of expertise. People are famous for being famous (Instagram Famous), people have jobs that they have done nothing to prepare for...some of the most important jobs in the world, in fact. I reject the notion that expertise and mastery are not valuable, even so. Martial Arts is no exception. It all comes down to what you value.


----------



## Tarrycat

I can only speak for myself & the knowledge I've gained over the years of training Martial Arts.

Someone here said that in boxing, Krav Maga, etc; there aren't that much techniques for you to learn, which I agree with.

I have boxed, I have observed attentively the techniques of Krav Maga & what all these sports or fighting techniques have in common is this: lack of variety in different fields of energy.

What I mean by that, is all of those techniques mostly require force & strength. They are explosive; which doesn't really require the same skills as Martial Arts does. 

I have found that it is MUCH easier for me to revert to an explosive technique built upon strength, than to transform all of my energy into kata that requires me to move like the wind, the earth, fire, & water. 

Most Martial Arts kata requires you to move based on the different elements (mentioned above). It requires you to shift ALL of your energy into a specific element; & actually perfecting a technique like that is what takes so much time. Why? Because we don't live in those different states of energy on a daily basis. From the day you were born, you've only grown accustomed to ONE state of energy, & to now transform that energy you've lived with your entire life into other states of energy; THAT is where the struggle, the time, & the effort comes into play.

If I had to compare myself to my Sensei, there would be NO comparison. He can tranform his void energy into any other element, & one would not notice the shift in his energy, only in his kata. Why? Because he's been doing it for YEARS. THIS is where the "mastery" concept comes into play. 

Martial Arts is all about energy, & connecting to your higher self. It's about the vibration of the atoms in your body & tuning into those vibrations.

This is why beginners will practice kata in steps, rather than in a flowing motion. Or they will do the kata, & then pause, disrupting the energy they started with - they are not used to it. They continue to shut the element's energy off, & revert back to the energy they're used to.

I don't know if all Martial Arts divisions requires you to shift into the different  elements, but Ninjutsu does. 

It's the only way I can put it into words for you.


----------



## FighterTwister

Tarrycat said:


> I can only speak for myself & the knowledge I've gained over the years of training Martial Arts.
> 
> Someone here said that in boxing, Krav Maga, etc; there aren't that much techniques for you to learn, which I agree with.
> 
> I have boxed, I have observed attentively the techniques of Krav Maga & what all these sports or fighting techniques have in common is this: lack of variety in different fields of energy.
> 
> What I mean by that, is all of those techniques mostly require force & strength. They are explosive; which doesn't really require the same skills as Martial Arts does.
> 
> I have found that it is MUCH easier for me to revert to an explosive technique built upon strength, than to transform all of my energy into kata that requires me to move like the wind, the earth, fire, & water.
> 
> Most Martial Arts kata requires you to move based on the different elements (mentioned above). It requires you to shift ALL of your energy into a specific element; & actually perfecting a technique like that is what takes so much time. Why? Because we don't live in those different states of energy on a daily basis. From the day you were born, you've only grown accustomed to ONE state of energy, & to now transform that energy you've lived with your entire life into other states of energy; THAT is where the struggle, the time, & the effort comes into play.
> 
> If I had to compare myself to my Sensei, there would be NO comparison. He can tranform his void energy into any other element, & one would not notice the shift in his energy, only in his kata. Why? Because he's been doing it for YEARS. THIS is where the "mastery" concept comes into play.
> 
> Martial Arts is all about energy, & connecting to your higher self. It's about the vibration of the atoms in your body & tuning into those vibrations.
> 
> *This is why beginners will practice kata in steps, rather than in a flowing motion. Or they will do the kata, & then pause, disrupting the energy they started with - they are not used to it. They continue to shut the element's energy off, & revert back to the energy they're used to.*
> 
> I don't know if all Martial Arts divisions requires you to shift into the different  elements, but Ninjutsu does.
> 
> It's the only way I can put it into words for you.



Exactly the art of expressing the human body, you have two arms and two legs one torso etc there is only so many combinations the body has as movement.

Each style has set movements, so learn the movements, practice the drills and apply the style so to speak.

The quicker you learn each phase and keep on practicing and perfecting the more precise, power and accurate you become.

There is a little more science involved like developing the brain states or motor neuron nerve fibre sequencing (reaction - timing and strengthening) etc

But it all comes down to how many hours a person commits in practical and theoretical application to the martial art this is when you really see great martial artists like Bruce Lee level of development.

Train, train, train and train some more and then train, train and Train again!

Really is the point on achieving in the sport of martial arts.


----------



## Tarrycat

FighterTwister said:


> Exactly the art of expressing the human body, you have two arms and two legs one torso etc there is only so many combinations the body has as movement.
> 
> Each style has set movements, so learn the movements, practice the drills and apply the style so to speak.
> 
> The quicker you learn each phase and keep on practicing and perfecting the more precise, power and accurate you become.
> 
> There is a little more science involved like developing the brain states or motor neuron nerve fibre sequencing (reaction - timing and strengthening) etc
> 
> But it all comes down to how many hours a person commits in practical and theoretical application to the martial art this is when you really see great martial artists like Bruce Lee level of development.
> 
> Train, train, train and train some more and then train, train and Train again!
> 
> Really is the point on achieving in the sport of martial arts.



Agreed. 

I used to train for three hours non-stop every Saturday with one of the black belt students who is fluid in the art; & I've found that the more I practiced, my energy would shift faster, & I'd be able to implement the kata with no trouble, whatsoever.

It does have a lot to do with your brain, yes. You have to learn to adapt to a lot of new things. I think the mind is lazy, until you take up martial arts. Just like the body, the mind needs to exercise in order to expand. 

The mind is the limit, the soul & the energy isn't. However, if you can expand the mind, your soul & your mind can be in perfect unison.

This is something all students of Martial Arts will understand. Others won't, until they experience the art.


----------



## JR 137

Tarrycat said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I used to train for three hours non-stop every Saturday with one of the black belt students who is fluid in the art; & I've found that the more I practiced, my energy would shift faster, & I'd be able to implement the kata with no trouble, whatsoever.
> 
> It does have a lot to do with your brain, yes. You have to learn to adapt to a lot of new things. I think the mind is lazy, until you take up martial arts. Just like the body, the mind needs to exercise in order to expand.
> 
> The mind is the limit, the soul & the energy isn't. However, if you can expand the mind, your soul & your mind can be in perfect unison.
> 
> This is something all students of Martial Arts will understand. Others won't, until they experience the art.


There's only one "element" of energy needed - ATP.  The more you breathe and the more glucose you have stored, the more ATP you can produce quickly.
Glucose + Oxygen -> Carbon dioxide + water + ATP (energy)
No need for the mysticism of "elements."

And a ton of things teach you to keep going even though your mind is telling you your body is tired.  Many, many people outside the martial arts understand this; martial arts don't hold any exclusive claim to it.


----------



## Tarrycat

JR 137 said:


> There's only one "element" of energy needed - ATP.  The more you breathe and the more glucose you have stored, the more ATP you can produce quickly.
> Glucose + Oxygen -> Carbon dioxide + water + ATP (energy)
> No need for the mysticism of "elements."
> 
> And a ton of things teach you to keep going even though your mind is telling you your body is tired.  Many, many people outside the martial arts understand this; martial arts don't hold any exclusive claim to it.




Yes, it has to do with breathing.

"...the mysticism of elements..." - sorry bud, I train in a completely different discipline than you do. It may sound "mystic" to you, but that's just the way these techniques were created. It's more than just breathing, you're creating a specific energy with it - be it flowing, forceful, light, or heavy - and it DOES take years to perfect it - it's not THAT simple.

I see MANY Krav Maga & boxing students struggling to shift into those different states when they join a Ninjutsu class. Why? Because they only make use of explosive energy. I'm not bashing ANY discipline here, I'm simply stating FACTS. I love boxing & Krav Maga; I also know some of the best in the fields.

It REALLY is that deep. I don't see why the founders of this discipline would write an endless amount of scrolls for nothing. 

If you haven't trained in my discipline, fine, but don't mock it. Experience it before passing judgment, please.


----------



## Tez3

Tarrycat said:


> I don't know if all Martial Arts divisions requires you to shift into the different elements,



No, our kata is for hurting people who attack you.

Bunkai - Karate's forgotten 95% | Iain Abernethy

The Pinan / Heian Series as a Fighting System: Part One | Iain Abernethy


----------



## Tarrycat

I


JR 137 said:


> There's only one "element" of energy needed - ATP.  The more you breathe and the more glucose you have stored, the more ATP you can produce quickly.
> Glucose + Oxygen -> Carbon dioxide + water + ATP (energy)
> No need for the mysticism of "elements."
> 
> And a ton of things teach you to keep going even though your mind is telling you your body is tired.  Many, many people outside the martial arts understand this; martial arts don't hold any exclusive claim to it.






Tarrycat said:


> Yes, it has to do with breathing.
> 
> "...the mysticism of elements..." - sorry bud, I train in a completely different discipline than you do. It may sound "mystic" to you, but that's just the way these techniques were created. It's more than just breathing, you're creating a specific energy with it - be it flowing, forceful, light, or heavy - and it DOES take years to perfect it - it's not THAT simple.
> 
> I see MANY Krav Maga & boxing students struggling to shift into those different states when they join a Ninjutsu class. Why? Because they only make use of explosive energy. I'm not bashing ANY discipline here, I'm simply stating FACTS. I love boxing & Krav Maga; I also know some of the best in the fields.
> 
> It REALLY is that deep. I don't see why the founders of this discipline would write an endless amount of scrolls for nothing.
> 
> If you haven't trained in my discipline, fine, but don't mock it. Experience it before passing judgment, please.



And I give advice based on my own knowledge & experience. I don't give opinions on behalf of everyone else. Do with it as you please, just don't come at me with the intention of creating conflict. I'm not a keypad warrior.


Tez3 said:


> No, our kata is for hurting people who attack you.
> 
> Bunkai - Karate's forgotten 95% | Iain Abernethy
> 
> The Pinan / Heian Series as a Fighting System: Part One | Iain Abernethy



All Martial Arts were designed for self-defense with the chance of seriously injuring your opponent. I'm aware of that, yes.


----------



## jobo

JR 137 said:


> There's only one "element" of energy needed - ATP.  The more you breathe and the more glucose you have stored, the more ATP you can produce quickly.
> Glucose + Oxygen -> Carbon dioxide + water + ATP (energy)
> No need for the mysticism of "elements."
> 
> And a ton of things teach you to keep going even though your mind is telling you your body is tired.  Many, many people outside the martial arts understand this; martial arts don't hold any exclusive claim to it.


i know you know this, but for others,there is only one,source of energy, atp, but more than one way of getting it,

where people are puffing and painting quickly, there maybe a good case for improving there aerobic capacity, but there is an equally good case for increasing their anaerobic capacity, so they can perform high intensity long( er) duration exercises with out troubling their heart and lungs to much.

I've been working on building my anaerobic capacity to five minutes of max intensity, whilst keeping my heart rate at the barely elevated level,

if i get in to a fight i want that long of sustained effort, before my aerobic capacity is needed, then i can,still run away, if needed


----------



## Tez3

Tarrycat said:


> I don't know if all Martial Arts divisions requires you to shift into the different elements, but Ninjutsu does



@Chris Parker


----------



## Tarrycat

Tez3 said:


> @Chris Parker



Kata is divided into the elements of:

- Fire 
- Water
- Earth
- Wind
- Void

You can tag Chris, since he knows Ninjutsu. It's difficult to explain these things to people who don't practice it.


----------



## Tez3

Tarrycat said:


> Kata is divided into the elements of:
> 
> - Fire
> - Water
> - Earth
> - Wind
> - Void
> 
> You can tag Chris, since he knows Ninjutsu. It's difficult to explain these things to people who don't practice it.



Your kata, not mine.


----------



## Chris Parker

Tarrycat said:


> Kata is divided into the elements of:
> 
> - Fire
> - Water
> - Earth
> - Wind
> - Void
> 
> You can tag Chris, since he knows Ninjutsu. It's difficult to explain these things to people who don't practice it.


 
No, they're not.

Stephen Hayes put that idea across in the 80's, and his Toshindo organisation continues with it, but it is not part of anything found in the actual arts in Japan or elsewhere (other than Hayes' interpretation).


----------



## JR 137

jobo said:


> i know you know this, but for others,there is only one,source of energy, atp, but more than one way of getting it,
> 
> where people are puffing and painting quickly, there maybe a good case for improving there aerobic capacity, but there is an equally good case for increasing their anaerobic capacity, so they can perform high intensity long( er) duration exercises with out troubling their heart and lungs to much.
> 
> I've been working on building my anaerobic capacity to five minutes of max intensity, whilst keeping my heart rate at the barely elevated level,
> 
> if i get in to a fight i want that long of sustained effort, before my aerobic capacity is needed, then i can,still run away, if needed


Absolutely.  There's many different ways of converting glycogen (stored glucose in the body) to ATP, but they all convert it into ATP.  Aerobic, anaerobic, fermentation, etc.  Which system is being used is dependent on the demands.

Training aerobicly will help when you need anaerobic energy and vice versa.  If you've got great aerobic capacity, it'll make anaerobic processes more efficient, and the other way around.

Train mostly for what you need, but don't neglect the others.


----------



## DaveB

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an excellent fighter in a relatively short amount of time.
> 
> When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> PS
> 
> I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."


I used to feel the same, but not that it was a waste of time, more that the training is inefficient to the goal of fighting.

I realised that most traditionalists aren't training to fight, they are training to *do* "x" art. Also most TMA contain much more than one needs to kickbox and many have a different focus to ring fighting.

Basically there is a lot of nuance to be considered when comparing any aspect of different martial arts, not least of all is would those people training TMA still be training if it was rejigged towards ring fighting?


----------



## DaveB

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> No, not really. Improving language skills serves a practical purpose. Improving complex kata only makes you good at doing complex kata.


surely that depends on what you do with your improved kata?


----------



## JR 137

Tarrycat said:


> Yes, it has to do with breathing.
> 
> "...the mysticism of elements..." - sorry bud, I train in a completely different discipline than you do. It may sound "mystic" to you, but that's just the way these techniques were created. It's more than just breathing, you're creating a specific energy with it - be it flowing, forceful, light, or heavy - and it DOES take years to perfect it - it's not THAT simple.
> 
> I see MANY Krav Maga & boxing students struggling to shift into those different states when they join a Ninjutsu class. Why? Because they only make use of explosive energy. I'm not bashing ANY discipline here, I'm simply stating FACTS. I love boxing & Krav Maga; I also know some of the best in the fields.
> 
> It REALLY is that deep. I don't see why the founders of this discipline would write an endless amount of scrolls for nothing.
> 
> If you haven't trained in my discipline, fine, but don't mock it. Experience it before passing judgment, please.


I wasn't mocking, I was just stating opinion.  Sorry if I came off that way.

I fully agree that training your body to do exactly what you want takes years to do, and truthfully it takes a lifetime and one will never 100% reach that goal.

But I don't think controlling your body/mind/movements has anything to do with "elements."  It has everything to do with neural pathways and ATP production and conversion (what the human body uses for energy).

The body's energy comes from the energy released when a molecule of phosphate is broken off a molecule of ATP.  In other words, adenosine tri-phosphate is converted into adenosine-di-phosphate.  The energy your body uses is as a result of this chemical reaction.  No matter which way one perceives their energy comes from, the ATP to ADP process is where it comes from.  That is scientific fact that's been researched and tested by people significantly smarter than I.


----------



## Tarrycat

Chris Parker said:


> No, they're not.
> 
> Stephen Hayes put that idea across in the 80's, and his Toshindo organisation continues with it, but it is not part of anything found in the actual arts in Japan or elsewhere (other than Hayes' interpretation).



chapter 9

Five elements (Japanese philosophy) - Wikipedia

The Elements

It's actually a very well-known concept the Japanese use & apply to their techniques. 

We use it in all of our kata. 

Some kata require you to be more stabilised, & rooted (earth), while others require you to move around freely (wind - like Aikido).


----------



## jobo

JR 137 said:


> I wasn't mocking, I was just stating opinion.  Sorry if I came off that way.
> 
> I fully agree that training your body to do exactly what you want takes years to do, and truthfully it takes a lifetime and one will never 100% reach that goal.
> 
> But I don't think controlling your body/mind/movements has anything to do with "elements."  It has everything to do with neural pathways and ATP production and conversion (what the human body uses for energy).
> 
> The body's energy comes from the energy released when a molecule of phosphate is broken off a molecule of ATP.  In other words, adenosine tri-phosphate is converted into adenosine-di-phosphate.  The energy your body uses is as a result of this chemical reaction.  No matter which way one perceives their energy comes from, the ATP to ADP process is where it comes from.  That is scientific fact that's been researched and tested by people significantly smarter than I.


the thing is, the elements reasonably describe different nural skills abilities, them seem a reasonable,way of visualising, the using of different fibres, pathways.movement patterns 

i keep getting told I'm all fire, I'm straight at the opponent, with max force, that my default position,developing my CNS, to be more wind or water in my movements would quite possibly be to my betterments? And I'm working on more fluidity and power through movement


----------



## Chris Parker

Sorry, just went back to re-read... most of this thread is just, well... silly, if I'm to be honest.... on a few fronts... but thought I might address this in a bit more detail.



Tarrycat said:


> I can only speak for myself & the knowledge I've gained over the years of training Martial Arts.



Hi Tarrycat, good to meet you.

Would you mind listing what the years of training you have are? You mentioned in your introduction thread a year and a half of ninjutsu training... and, if I'm correct in my supposition of your photos for "Bojutsu", you appear quite young... would that be correct? Please note this is not an attack, just trying to get a gauge on where you're coming from in this regard.



Tarrycat said:


> Someone here said that in boxing, Krav Maga, etc; there aren't that much techniques for you to learn, which I agree with.



Hmm... Boxing is certainly a fair bit more restricted in that there are (essentially) four punches, done with each hand (to make 8), with a few specialist punches, and an array of covering, jamming, and evasive movements... but it is referred to as the "sweet science" for very good reason. Krav can be taught a number of ways, and can be more or less complex (depending on the lineage)... but there can be quite an array of technical methods taught there.



Tarrycat said:


> I have boxed, I have observed attentively the techniques of Krav Maga & what all these sports or fighting techniques have in common is this: lack of variety in different fields of energy.
> 
> What I mean by that, is all of those techniques mostly require force & strength. They are explosive; which doesn't really require the same skills as Martial Arts does.



Personally, I don't see either as being focused on force and strength... boxing in particular can be quite technical... and subtle. Krav is based largely on overwhelming an aggressive force, but again doesn't necessarily rely on needing to overpower them... so I don't think I'd agree with that at all. Especially not with the idea that they don't require the same skills as martial arts (whatever skills you feel "martial arts" require... as "martial arts" is such a broad category, I don't think there can be any single set of skills required there at all... part of my problem with Kung Fu Wang's posts, for the record).



Tarrycat said:


> I have found that it is MUCH easier for me to revert to an explosive technique built upon strength, than to transform all of my energy into kata that requires me to move like the wind, the earth, fire, & water.



Okay... this may be the language of your dojo, but it is far from universal... even the few dojo who do follow Hayes' don't express in terms of "transform all of my energy"... 



Tarrycat said:


> Most Martial Arts kata requires you to move based on the different elements (mentioned above).



Er... no. No, they don't.

And, as I asked for your background, I'll give mine. My training goes back a bit over 30 years, and includes Tani-ha Shito Ryu Shukokai Karate-do and Rhee Tae-kwon Do when I was younger, the last quarter of a century with Ninjutsu (my organisation was the first authentic school in Australia, dating from 1981, these days we are independent). I also train in two Koryu arts (Classical Japanese systems), Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu and Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu. Along the way, I have trained in Seitei Jodo, Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido, Gracie BJJ, boxing, and have cross-trained in Aikido (Aiki-Kai and Iwama/Takemusu), Wing Chun, Hontai Yoshin Ryu, Judo, Krav Maga, RBSD systems (a number of systems, including Deane Lawlers R-Sult, Richard Dmitri's Senshido, and more), and have spent much of the last 3 decades plus researching and learning as much as I can about martial arts from around the world, focused particularly on Japanese arts, giving me insight into a fair bit more than the list here. That's the background I bring to this discussion.



Tarrycat said:


> It requires you to shift ALL of your energy into a specific element; & actually perfecting a technique like that is what takes so much time. Why? Because we don't live in those different states of energy on a daily basis. From the day you were born, you've only grown accustomed to ONE state of energy, & to now transform that energy you've lived with your entire life into other states of energy; THAT is where the struggle, the time, & the effort comes into play.



So, as said above, my background is very much the arts you're training in now... and none of this matches the way they are taught.



Tarrycat said:


> If I had to compare myself to my Sensei, there would be NO comparison. He can tranform his void energy into any other element, & one would not notice the shift in his energy, only in his kata. Why? Because he's been doing it for YEARS. THIS is where the "mastery" concept comes into play.



I'm glad you think highly of him, but again, this is not the way any of this is taught or described. 



Tarrycat said:


> Martial Arts is all about energy, & connecting to your higher self. It's about the vibration of the atoms in your body & tuning into those vibrations.



This is similar to what Hayes was saying years ago, although somewhat muddled up.



Tarrycat said:


> This is why beginners will practice kata in steps, rather than in a flowing motion. Or they will do the kata, & then pause, disrupting the energy they started with - they are not used to it. They continue to shut the element's energy off, & revert back to the energy they're used to.



Er... no... the reason beginners practice the kata in steps is because they don't have the skills yet... nothing to do with the "energies shifting" or similar... 



Tarrycat said:


> I don't know if all Martial Arts divisions requires you to shift into the different  elements, but Ninjutsu does.



No, it doesn't.



Tarrycat said:


> It's the only way I can put it into words for you.



Okay.



Tarrycat said:


> chapter 9



Yeah, don't take this the wrong way, but that entire thing is garbage. Basically, he's taken Hayes' early books (including all the mistakes), and repeated them... in some cases confounding them with others, and having no idea just how bad what he's putting across is.




Tarrycat said:


> Five elements (Japanese philosophy) - Wikipedia



The idea of the Godai in Japanese culture isn't in question (for the record, that's not really the way that they're used in the Gorin no Sho, but that's another discussion...), the question is the application of them to the "energies in kata"... which is not a common application, nor an accurate one. And this article has no reference to it, nor relevance.




Tarrycat said:


> The Elements



Ah, the Kashiwa guys... haven't seen them for a bit... they do tend to cater to the fantasies more than the way things are taught in Japan, and have been called out on that a number of times. Incidentally, they actually teach not too far from Don Roley... who is one of the better sources on this idea, having lived in Japan for 15 years, training with Hatsumi sensei, and mostly as a personal student of the late Oguri sensei. 

Speaking of.... Rantings and Ravings



Tarrycat said:


> It's actually a very well-known concept the Japanese use & apply to their techniques.



No, they don't. Believe me... they don't. If you go to Japan and ask whether, say, Koku is a "fire" technique, or a "water" one, you'll just get a puzzled look and a polite smile... 



Tarrycat said:


> We use it in all of our kata.



Okay, but that's your dojo. It is not the norm, nor is it something "in all martial art kata".



Tarrycat said:


> Some kata require you to be more stabilised, & rooted (earth), while others require you to move around freely (wind - like Aikido).



I am familiar with each and every kata of each and every school of the Bujinkan that is commonly taught, and no, that is simply incorrect.


----------



## JR 137

jobo said:


> the thing is, the elements reasonably describe different nural skills abilities, them seem a reasonable,way of visualising, the using of different fibres, pathways.movement patterns
> 
> i keep getting told I'm all fire, I'm straight at the opponent, with max force, that my default position,developing my CNS, to be more wind or water in my movements would quite possibly be to my betterments? And I'm working on more fluidity and power through movement


I agree.  They're great ways to describe it.  But at the end of the day, the "elements" are nothing more than a metaphor.  A very good and easily understood metaphor, but a metaphor nonetheless.


----------



## jobo

JR 137 said:


> I agree.  They're great ways to describe it.  But at the end of the day, the "elements" are nothing more than a metaphor.  A very good and easily understood metaphor, but a metaphor nonetheless.


well yea, if you want to understand the science, like you and i do, its a fairy story that sort of explains it,
if on the other hand you are just interested in simple cause and effect. Do this and that happens, it makes no difference to how well you develop.

you don't need to know why veg is good for you, just that it is, if you eat it coz your mother told you the Easter bunny, said you should, you still get the same benifit


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tarrycat said:


> I don't know if all Martial Arts divisions requires you to shift into the different elements, but Ninjutsu does.





Tarrycat said:


> It may sound "mystic" to you, but that's just the way these techniques were created. It's more than just breathing, you're creating a specific energy with it - be it flowing, forceful, light, or heavy - and it DOES take years to perfect it - it's not THAT simple.





Tarrycat said:


> Kata is divided into the elements of:
> 
> - Fire
> - Water
> - Earth
> - Wind
> - Void





Tarrycat said:


> It's actually a very well-known concept the Japanese use & apply to their techniques.


Everything Chris says in his posts above is correct, but I thought I'd add a little more information regarding the "godai" in ninjutsu.

When Stephen Hayes first started teaching "ninjutsu" (The Bujinkan arts) in the United States, he had a relatively limited amount of training time with his teachers in Japan. What he did have was a flair for self-promotion and a knack for coming up with creative ways to explain concepts.

One thing he came up with was to combine the idea of the "godai" (5 element theory in Japanese mysticism) with a concept he had picked up from one of his teachers (that the body's movements will be more effective when they are in sync with the emotions of the person moving). He designed his own kata - the "Godai no kata" - to illustrate this concept. His idea was that if you entered a fight feeling tentative and unsure and then tried to execute techniques requiring aggressive commitment, then you would likely hesitate at the wrong moment. Likewise if you entered a fight feeling aggressive and tried to execute techniques based on patiently waiting and counterattacking, then you would be likely to jump the gun, and so on. The best thing to do, in this theory, would be to have an arsenal of movements which matched whatever emotional state you might be in and be able to recognize the appropriate mode to operate in at the right moment.

BTW - the focus was not so much on being able to transform your own energy as on being able to recognize what your energy naturally was and what movements would fit that energy. If you could just go into "fire mode" any time you wanted, then there would be no need for "water movements."

If Hayes had stated up front that this was his own formulation, then this wouldn't have been a problem. He might rightly be seen as an innovator. I've seen variations of this idea from other sources, but not laid out quite the same way.

What he did was publish a bunch of books where he laid this godai theory out as a fundamental idea in ninjutsu. At the time, very few westerners had trained with Hatsumi and his shihans in Japan and there were very few sources of information on the Bujinkan arts in English. Therefore a lot of people who started training or became interested in the art in the 80s had just his books to go on. By the time more people had made the trip to train in Japan, the idea was widespread in the U.S. and probably other western countries as well.

In 1986, Hatsumi came to the U.S. for a Tai Kai in San Francisco. After a day of training, he took questions in the evening. At the time, I was a relatively new student of the art (I had been training for a couple of years). I figured the most productive thing I could ask about was the most fundamental part of the art. I raised my hand.
_"Can you talk a bit about the significance of the Godai?"_
The translator looked perplexed.
_"The what?"_
At this point Jack Hoban jumped up from his seat near Hatsumi and the shihans to explain to them:
_"Oh that's something we came up with over here to ..."_
Steve Hayes waved Jack back down and shushed him.
There followed a brief discussion in Japanese, after which the official answer came:
_"Don't worry about it. Just train."_

Since then, high ranked instructors who have trained in Japan have made it clear that the Godai is not part of the Bujinkan curriculum or theory, but due to the number of instructors in the West who started out learning from Steve's books, or from Steve or from his students, the idea is still being taught.


----------



## Tarrycat

Chris Parker said:


> No, they're not.
> 
> Stephen Hayes put that idea across in the 80's, and his Toshindo organisation continues with it, but it is not part of anything found in the actual arts in Japan or elsewhere (other than Hayes' interpretation).



chapter 9

Five elements (Japanese philosophy) - Wikipedia

The Elements

It's actually a


Tony Dismukes said:


> Everything Chris says in his posts above is correct, but I thought I'd add a little more information regarding the "godai" in ninjutsu.
> 
> When Stephen Hayes first started teaching "ninjutsu" (The Bujinkan arts) in the United States, he had a relatively limited amount of training time with his teachers in Japan. What he did have was a flair for self-promotion and a knack for coming up with creative ways to explain concepts.
> 
> One thing he came up with was to combine the idea of the "godai" (5 element theory in Japanese mysticism) with a concept he had picked up from one of his teachers (that the body's movements will be more effective when they are in sync with the emotions of the person moving). He designed his own kata - the "Godai no kata" - to illustrate this concept. His idea was that if you entered a fight feeling tentative and unsure and then tried to execute techniques requiring aggressive commitment, then you would likely hesitate at the wrong moment. Likewise if you entered a fight feeling aggressive and tried to execute techniques based on patiently waiting and counterattacking, then you would be likely to jump the gun, and so on. The best thing to do, in this theory, would be to have an arsenal of movements which matched whatever emotional state you might be in and be able to recognize the appropriate mode to operate in at the right moment.
> 
> BTW - the focus was not so much on being able to transform your own energy as on being able to recognize what your energy naturally was and what movements would fit that energy. If you could just go into "fire mode" any time you wanted, then there would be no need for "water movements."
> 
> If Hayes had stated up front that this was his own formulation, then this wouldn't have been a problem. He might rightly be seen as an innovator. I've seen variations of this idea from other sources, but not laid out quite the same way.
> 
> What he did was publish a bunch of books where he laid this godai theory out as a fundamental idea in ninjutsu. At the time, very few westerners had trained with Hatsumi and his shihans in Japan and there were very few sources of information on the Bujinkan arts in English. Therefore a lot of people who started training or became interested in the art in the 80s had just his books to go on. By the time more people had made the trip to train in Japan, the idea was widespread in the U.S. and probably other western countries as well.
> 
> In 1986, Hatsumi came to the U.S. for a Tai Kai in San Francisco. After a day of training, he took questions in the evening. At the time, I was a relatively new student of the art (I had been training for a couple of years). I figured the most productive thing I could ask about was the most fundamental part of the art. I raised my hand.
> _"Can you talk a bit about the significance of the Godai?"_
> The translator looked perplexed.
> _"The what?"_
> At this point Jack Hoban jumped up from his seat near Hatsumi and the shihans to explain to them:
> _"Oh that's something we came up with over here to ..."_
> Steve Hayes waved Jack back down and shushed him.
> There followed a brief discussion in Japanese, after which the official answer came:
> _"Don't worry about it. Just train."_
> 
> Since then, high ranked instructors who have trained in Japan have made it clear that the Godai is not part of the Bujinkan curriculum or theory, but due to the number of instructors in the West who started out learning from Steve's books, or from Steve or from his students, the idea is still being taught.



Funny that it originated from Steven K. Hayes, when it is taught by Shoto Tanemura in his Genbukan community as well. 

They use the same principles. My friend from the States uses the same principles & he's a Genbukan student. 

The elements help you to understand which type of energy to apply, although it cannot really be put into words. The energies are far too advanced to be able to describe it. 

I will have a talk with my Sensei to enlighten myself more. 

Thank you for the input.


----------



## Tarrycat

JR 137 said:


> I agree.  They're great ways to describe it.  But at the end of the day, the "elements" are nothing more than a metaphor.  A very good and easily understood metaphor, but a metaphor nonetheless.




Yes! It IS a metaphor to describe the different energies. That's what I've been TRYING to say all the time. It's extremely difficult to explain those energies in words. You just can't. I didn't want to make it seem mystical, it's just a simplified way to understand it.


----------



## Hyoho

Tarrycat said:


> Yes! It IS a metaphor to describe the different energies. That's what I've been TRYING to say all the time. It's extremely difficult to explain those energies in words. You just can't. I didn't want to make it seem mystical, it's just a simplified way to understand it.


The founder of Yagu Ryu likened the power of his school to an unstoppable boulder rolling down a mountain. Musashi said his power was that of water, be it a single drop or a waterfall.


----------



## Tarrycat

Hyoho said:


> The founder of Yagu Ryu likened the power of his school to an unstoppable boulder rolling down a mountain. Musashi said his power was that of water, be it a single drop or a waterfall.




My Sensei also describes the energies giving such examples. That's the only way to bring the message across clearly... I'm glad you can relate. :')


----------



## hoshin1600

_Iwo no mi...._Miyamoto Niten

_Marobashi no michi....._Yagyu sekishusai




There im sure everyone understand now.


----------



## Tarrycat

hoshin1600 said:


> _Iwo no mi...._Miyamoto Niten
> 
> _Marobashi no michi....._Yagyu sekishusai
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There im sure everyone understand now.



If I had to describe the energy I'm feeling right now, I'd say that it feels like mountains have been


hoshin1600 said:


> _Iwo no mi...._Miyamoto Niten
> 
> _Marobashi no michi....._Yagyu sekishusai
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There im sure everyone understand now.



How I feel after the conclusion of this concept: ...


----------



## hoshin1600

Tarrycat said:


> My Sensei also describes the energies giving such examples. That's the only way to bring the message across clearly... I'm glad you can relate. :')



Tarrycat,  i believe you find the romantic language appealing but it is really not helpful.  you say that you cannot explain it any other way.  perhaps that is because you are still a relative beginner and do not really understand the concepts.  if someone really understands then they should be able to use common language that the layperson can understand.  if the concept is fully dependent on mystic, criptic words then maybe they only exist in the mystic realm.  when i say "_Iwo no mi"_   no one understands what i am saying.  its not even current Japanese language.  one of the tell tale signs of false arguments is when people make up their own words, it allows them to put any meaning they like on it and twist and turn it at will and tell others "well you just cant understand"

while romantic  phrases are appealing in martial arts they are often a translation of Japanese , which lends itself to misunderstandings and inaccurate translations.


----------



## lklawson

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts-
> 
> [...]
> 
> Comments?


Horse-crap.

The early Tudor era ranking system for English Martial Arts through the Company of Maisters required *SEVEN (7) YEARS* between tests.  Start off as a "Scholar" and train for 7 years before you could be considered for testing at Free Scholar.

Masters of Defense of London
Company of Masters - Wikipedia


----------



## Tez3

lklawson said:


> Horse-crap.
> 
> The early Tudor era ranking system for English Martial Arts through the Company of Maisters required *SEVEN (7) YEARS* between tests.  Start off as a "Scholar" and train for 7 years before you could be considered for testing at Free Scholar.
> 
> Masters of Defense of London
> Company of Masters - Wikipedia



Nearly every activity and trade had a Guild or Company then, these dated back centuries before the Tudor era. Many Guilds and Companies are still going strong now. Training for trades was considered a serious business and took years even though much of the technology was basic one still had to learn it thoroughly. Martial arts would have been no different, people didn't rush through training so they became craftsmen, with a deep knowledge and experience of their trade. This is why the cathedrals and other buildings they put up are still standing now for example, much of what they made in ceramics, silver, wood etc is still around today as well. Again martial arts is no different, one trains for deep understanding and skill, not for 'oh that'll do'.


----------



## lklawson

drop bear said:


> Wasn't there those monks who could remember everything?
> 
> Oral traditions are pretty common. I don't think pictures were as effective.


In cultures with limited access to scarce and expensive writing materials, mnemonic techniques were extremely advanced.  The concept of a "Memory Palace" dates back to ancient Greece.

In medieval Europe, it was common for Christian Monks and religious leaders to memorize whole books of the Bible, sometimes even the whole Bible, if we're to believe what was recorded.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

ShortBridge said:


> You can buy a guitar in a pawn shop and join a garage band. You might even become rich and famous.


That ain't work'n.  That's the way you do it.  Get your money for noth'n and your chicks for free.  Maybe get a blister on your little finger.  Maybe get a blister on your thumb.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Tarrycat said:


> All Martial Arts were designed for self-defense with the chance of seriously injuring your opponent. I'm aware of that, yes.


No they weren't.  Some were "designed" for sport.  Some for recreation.  Some for exercise and health.  Some for Esprit de Corps.  Alfred Hutton's "Great Stick" method of fighting with a ~5' staff is an example of this.  I can point to at least 3 methods of "Quarterstaff" which were specifically designed for either sport or exercise.


----------



## lklawson

Tarrycat said:


> Kata is divided into the elements of:


Once everyone can agree on the purpose of Kata.


----------



## lklawson

Tarrycat said:


> chapter 9
> 
> Five elements (Japanese philosophy) - Wikipedia
> 
> The Elements
> 
> It's actually a very well-known concept the Japanese use & apply to their techniques.
> 
> We use it in all of our kata.
> 
> Some kata require you to be more stabilised, & rooted (earth), while others require you to move around freely (wind - like Aikido).


Strangely, none of these show up in any of the Judo kata or the Aikdio (Tomiki) kata I learned.

I think maybe you are assuming things about other arts based on insufficient information about them.


----------



## lklawson

Tarrycat said:


> My Sensei also describes the energies giving such examples. That's the only way to bring the message across clearly... I'm glad you can relate. :')


"Your Sensei."  You need to understand that you're speaking with a bunch of people who are already Sensei, including Chris, Hyoho, Tony, Tez, and, well, a bunch more.

It's a little bit like a Jr. High student arguing with the entire faculty of a University.


----------



## lklawson

Tez3 said:


> Nearly every activity and trade had a Guild or Company then, these dated back centuries before the Tudor era. Many Guilds and Companies are still going strong now. Training for trades was considered a serious business and took years even though much of the technology was basic one still had to learn it thoroughly. Martial arts would have been no different, people didn't rush through training so they became craftsmen, with a deep knowledge and experience of their trade. This is why the cathedrals and other buildings they put up are still standing now for example, much of what they made in ceramics, silver, wood etc is still around today as well. Again martial arts is no different, one trains for deep understanding and skill, not for 'oh that'll do'.


That is exactly 100% right.

As fun as it is to argue with you, I can find no fault in this statement.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Xue Sheng said:


> And Drumpf could be very easily thought of as a rather intense political statement when combined with Fuhrer.


It is a political statement.  In U.S. at the moment, "Drumpf" is a common derisive term for President Donald Trump, who is often described by those who dislike, disagree with, or oppose him politically, as a Nazi, hence "Fuhrer"

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tarrycat

hoshin1600 said:


> Tarrycat,  i believe you find the romantic language appealing but it is really not helpful.  you say that you cannot explain it any other way.  perhaps that is because you are still a relative beginner and do not really understand the concepts.  if someone really understands then they should be able to use common language that the layperson can understand.  if the concept is fully dependent on mystic, criptic words then maybe they only exist in the mystic realm.  when i say "_Iwo no mi"_   no one understands what i am saying.  its not even current Japanese language.  one of the tell tale signs of false arguments is when people make up their own words, it allows them to put any meaning they like on it and twist and turn it at will and tell others "well you just cant understand"
> 
> while romantic  phrases are appealing in martial arts they are often a translation of Japanese , which lends itself to misunderstandings and inaccurate translations.



No, I disagree to an EXTENT with your opinion; but that doesn't make it wrong. It's just that mine differs.

My Sensei has been doing Ninjutsu for 30 years now & he can't even fully explain the energies. He can describe it the way you have, but that's about it. When he DEMONSTRATES it, THEN only are the students able to fully grasp it - whether they are advanced or not. The only difference between advanced students & beginners, is that advanced students, over the years of training, can apply the energy more effortlessly. My Sensei says it takes a while, for some it takes years to perfect the energy used in Ninjutsu.

You ARE right in saying that once you make up words, it can entirely miss the purpose of the technique, or be a bit misleading - in some cases, yes. However, when my Sensei describes it to me like that, MY brain can understand it better, mysticism or not. I don't think like everyone else does; so when I AM able to fully grasp it in such a way, that's all that matters to me. It doesn't matter to me what YOU think or the next person. In fact, how I learn & how I am taught, will NOT be the same for every other person, AS LONG AS I AM improving & progressing in my art.

Nothing though, helps as much as demonstration - I have noticed that when my Sensei demonstrates, everyone has an "ah-ha!" moment. Even after he demonstrates, they have the tendency to use some strength in their techniques, & then the technique FAILS; why? Because they've approached it using the wrong energy. 

In my opinion, NINJUTSU cannot be put into words. The logic of it, YES. The spiritual side? To an EXTENT, but NEVER 100%.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tarrycat said:


> chapter 9
> 
> Five elements (Japanese philosophy) - Wikipedia
> 
> The Elements
> 
> It's actually a
> 
> 
> Funny that it originated from Steven K. Hayes, when it is taught by Shoto Tanemura in his Genbukan community as well.
> 
> They use the same principles. My friend from the States uses the same principles & he's a Genbukan student.
> 
> The elements help you to understand which type of energy to apply, although it cannot really be put into words. The energies are far too advanced to be able to describe it.
> 
> I will have a talk with my Sensei to enlighten myself more.
> 
> Thank you for the input.


I wonder if your Genbukan friend studies under an instructor who started out under Steve Hayes's organization before switching to the Genbukan. I've never heard of the godai theory being part of the Genbukan curriculum. If @Yamabushii is still hanging around the forums, perhaps he can fill us in.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

lklawson said:


> "Your Sensei."  You need to understand that you're speaking with a bunch of people who are already Sensei, including Chris, Hyoho, Tony, Tez, and, well, a bunch more.
> 
> It's a little bit like a Jr. High student arguing with the entire faculty of a University.


In fairness, we're not _her_ sensei, no matter how much experience we have.


----------



## Tarrycat

lklawson said:


> No they weren't.  Some were "designed" for sport.  Some for recreation.  Some for exercise and health.  Some for Esprit de Corps.  Alfred Hutton's "Great Stick" method of fighting with a ~5' staff is an example of this.  I can point to at least 3 methods of "Quarterstaff" which were specifically designed for either sport or exercise.



I didn't even know those existed... ... But okay. I'm always willing to learn more. I'm young!


----------



## lklawson

Tony Dismukes said:


> In fairness, we're not _her_ sensei, no matter how much experience we have.


I agree.  My point being that just because the concept is being taught to her by her Sensei as important elements of Kata doesn't mean that it expands to Kata of any other Martial Art as she had assumed and argued for.  The fact that many other Sensei in this thread specifically reported that her training is not representative of other martial expressions of kata is _prima facie_.  I can understand her initial belief but can't condone continued argument in the face of contradictory evidence.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Xue Sheng

lklawson said:


> It is a political statement.  In U.S. at the moment, "Drumpf" is a common derisive term for President Donald Trump, who is often described by those who dislike, disagree with, or oppose him politically, as a Nazi, hence "Fuhrer"
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Yes I know. Actually Drumpf was Trump's original family name. However it was changed to Trump before he came along

Trump's Family Surname Was Once 'Drumpf'


----------



## Tarrycat

Tony Dismukes said:


> In fairness, we're not _her_ sensei, no matter how much experience we have.



I like your mindset, you seem like a humble person, which I like. You're right, nobody here is my teacher in person. But I can ALWAYS do with VIRTUAL Sensei's. 

Please don't get offended at my opinions, or my views. I do NOT know everything. NOBODY will EVER know everything, life is simply too short.

I'll appreciate it if you could bring in your friend who has trained under Tanemura, because I'd like to keep in contact with him whenever I have any questions or when I want some advice. I AM a beginner, so I have a lot to wrap my grey matter around. 

If he trained DIRECTLY under Tanemura, that would be EVEN BETTER. I would then consider myself damn lucky.

Thank you.


----------



## ShortBridge

lklawson said:


> That ain't work'n.  That's the way you do it.  Get your money for noth'n and your chicks for free.  Maybe get a blister on your little finger.  Maybe get a blister on your thumb.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Compelling argument. Can't argue.


----------



## lklawson

Xue Sheng said:


> Yes I know. Actually Drumpf was Trump's original family name. However it was changed to Trump before he came along
> 
> Trump's Family Surname Was Once 'Drumpf'


<nods>

Just one more thing about this user which makes my "Moderator Sense" tingle.







Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tarrycat

lklawson said:


> "Your Sensei."  You need to understand that you're speaking with a bunch of people who are already Sensei, including Chris, Hyoho, Tony, Tez, and, well, a bunch more.
> 
> It's a little bit like a Jr. High student arguing with the entire faculty of a University.



Don't get offended so easily. It'll speed up the aging process. You don't want that to happen now, do you? 

I have great respect for my Teacher. That is why I will always refer to him as my Teacher. I refer to him as that out of respect, not to upset people. It's just how I was raised, old sport.


----------



## ShortBridge

Tez3 said:


> ...Again martial arts is no different, one trains for deep understanding and skill, not for 'oh that'll do'.



Well...I think we're in the age of "that'll do". Even more so whereas as the fairly instant gratification of getting involved in or even watching combat sports has convinced a generation of people that they know best. Sad that they are so sure of themselves that they seem compelled to dismiss the perspectives of people who have spent decades dedicated to a different path, but this is current cultural phenomena not limited to martial arts. Tez, I know that we've even had people lecture LEO and others on this forum about "reality". Their sense of reality, of course being watching sparring on YouTube. "that'll do".



Tarrycat said:


> I like your mindset, you seem like a humble person, which I like. You're right, nobody here is my teacher in person. But I can ALWAYS do with VIRTUAL Sensei's.
> 
> Please don't get offended at my opinions, or my views. I do NOT know everything. NOBODY will EVER know everything, life is simply too short.
> 
> I'll appreciate it if you could bring in your friend who has trained under Tanemura, because I'd like to keep in contact with him whenever I have any questions or when I want some advice. I AM a beginner, so I have a lot to wrap my grey matter around.
> 
> If he trained DIRECTLY under Tanemura, that would be EVEN BETTER. I would then consider myself damn lucky.
> 
> Thank you.



With all do respect here. I think you're trying to salvage an overplayed hand and I think you're handling it well, but the real lesson here is (picking on you, but certainly you're not the first or the worst) that when you make declarative statements of fact on the internet, occasionally people who are in fact experts on the topic you suggested understanding of come along and call you out on it. I applaud your response and recovery, but it appears you got caught out on a limb here. I don't study this system, so I can only follow the dialogue and wouldn't have known one way or another on the subject you have been debating otherwise.

There's a direct parallel to the OPs declarative statement that he knows better than the long time students and teachers here and elsewhere and essentially holding his (implied) quick and early success in this field with people who have been pursuing mastery.

This issue, at heart, defines this and other forums on martial arts. The frustrating thing is that the classicalists seem to be more or less fine with people going to straight to combat sports and being satisfied with their choices. But that respect doesn't seem to extend the other way. There was a recent thread that I eventually unsubscribed from and blocked the OP over where he started it by saying that it was his mission and duty to expose everyone in the world as frauds who did anything other than UFC style training. That pretty much sums it up.


----------



## hoshin1600

Tarrycat said:


> However, when my Sensei describes it to me like that, MY brain can understand it better, mysticism or not. I don't think like everyone else does; so when I AM able to fully grasp it in such a way, that's all that matters to me. It doesn't matter to me what YOU think or the next person. In fact, how I learn & how I am taught, will NOT be the same for every other person, AS LONG AS I AM improving & progressing in my art.



to be clear i am not against the way your teacher is explaining things.  what i am trying to point out is that you are posting on a public forum and to express certain concepts in a "mystic" way will be misunderstood and be dismissed by your readers.


----------



## Tez3

lklawson said:


> It is a political statement.  In U.S. at the moment, "Drumpf" is a common derisive term for President Donald Trump, who is often described by those who dislike, disagree with, or oppose him politically, as a Nazi, hence "Fuhrer"
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I wondered about that as soon as I saw it but thought it was best to leave an American to bring it up.



Tarrycat said:


> In my opinion, NINJUTSU cannot be put into words.



Actually Chris Parker explains it extremely well. I knew little about Ninjutsu but I have learnt a lot of him. He's extremely knowledgeable and articulate.



Tarrycat said:


> Don't get offended so easily. It'll speed up the aging process



No one is offended in the least, you shouldn't read into words something that's not there. We tend to be plain speaking around here.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

hoshin1600 said:


> Tarrycat, i believe you find the romantic language appealing but it is really not helpful. you say that you cannot explain it any other way. perhaps that is because you are still a relative beginner and do not really understand the concepts. if someone really understands then they should be able to use common language that the layperson can understand. if the concept is fully dependent on mystic, criptic words then maybe they only exist in the mystic realm. when i say "_Iwo no mi"_ no one understands what i am saying. its not even current Japanese language. one of the tell tale signs of false arguments is when people make up their own words, it allows them to put any meaning they like on it and twist and turn it at will and tell others "well you just cant understand"
> 
> while romantic phrases are appealing in martial arts they are often a translation of Japanese , which lends itself to misunderstandings and inaccurate translations.





Tarrycat said:


> You ARE right in saying that once you make up words, it can entirely miss the purpose of the technique, or be a bit misleading - in some cases, yes. However, when my Sensei describes it to me like that, MY brain can understand it better, mysticism or not. I don't think like everyone else does; so when I AM able to fully grasp it in such a way, that's all that matters to me.



There's nothing wrong with using metaphors to help explain concepts to students. I do it all the time. Doesn't matter whether they're romantic, mundane, or downright silly. As long as they help guide the student to the necessary "ah hah" moment, they serve their purpose.

Where I agree with hoshin is that the better you understand a concept, the more you _can_ explain it in simple, everyday terms, without resorting to esoteric terminology. As a teacher I strive to not only be able to explain things simply, but to be able to explain things in different ways because not everybody learns the same way or has the same background.



Tarrycat said:


> My Sensei has been doing Ninjutsu for 30 years now & he can't even fully explain the energies. He can describe it the way you have, but that's about it. When he DEMONSTRATES it, THEN only are the students able to fully grasp it - whether they are advanced or not.





Tarrycat said:


> Nothing though, helps as much as demonstration - I have noticed that when my Sensei demonstrates, everyone has an "ah-ha!" moment. Even after he demonstrates, they have the tendency to use some strength in their techniques, & then the technique FAILS; why? Because they've approached it using the wrong energy.



Yeah, there's a difference between understanding something intellectually (which verbal explanations can help with) and understanding it physically. Understanding something physically requires physical experience, regardless of the art. Intellectual understanding can help you make sense of that physical experience, but it's not a substitute for it.


----------



## lklawson

Tarrycat said:


> Don't get offended so easily.


Huh?  I'm not offended.  I'm just cranky.  It comes with being old.



> It'll speed up the aging process. You don't want that to happen now, do you?


I'm already old.  Just ask my kids.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

lklawson said:


> Huh?  I'm not offended.  I'm just cranky.  It comes with being old.
> 
> I'm already old.  Just ask my kids.



Everyone older than me is a geezer. Everyone younger than me is a whippersnapper.

You're younger than me. That makes you a whippersnapper.


----------



## Buka

Silly rabbit...


----------



## lklawson

Tony Dismukes said:


> Everyone older than me is a geezer. Everyone younger than me is a whippersnapper.
> 
> You're younger than me. That makes you a whippersnapper.


To tell the truth, I usually feel about as good as when I was 25 or 30.  Until I get injured and have to heal.  Ack!  Then I feel every one of my years.

Oh, and sometimes in the morning when I'm trying to stretch out my plantar fasciitis.  I got rid of the blasted "condition" last year but it came back a few weeks ago.   

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tarrycat

hoshin1600 said:


> to be clear i am not against the way your teacher is explaining things.  what i am trying to point out is that you are posting on a public forum and to express certain concepts in a "mystic" way will be misunderstood and be dismissed by your readers.



I never referred to anything as being "mystic", until someone else brought it up. What I DID do, is mention the Godai. That's what I did. I tried to explain what lies behind all the "mysticism" - if THAT is what people who know absolutely nothing about the art would like to view it as. My purpose was never to make anything seem unrealistic, until someone else gave it that impression. 

Read my very first comment on this thread. It AAAAAALLLLLLLL escalated from there. 

If the readers were anything like me, they would read on to avoid any confusion & to educate themselves. 

(So, if you're reading this thread, READ ON, DON'T STOP).


----------



## Tez3

Tarrycat said:


> I tried to explain what lies behind all the "mysticism" - if THAT is what people who know absolutely nothing about the art would like to view it as.



But as we've seen it's not in your art is it. It's in what *you* study but as we've been told it's not in the art itself.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

lklawson said:


> Huh?  I'm not offended.  I'm just cranky.  It comes with being old.
> 
> I'm already old.  Just ask my kids.


Hell, ask most of us on here. We'll vouch that you're an old curmudgeon.


----------



## Tarrycat

ShortBridge said:


> Well...I think we're in the age of "that'll do". Even more so whereas as the fairly instant gratification of getting involved in or even watching combat sports has convinced a generation of people that they know best. Sad that they are so sure of themselves that they seem compelled to dismiss the perspectives of people who have spent decades dedicated to a different path, but this is current cultural phenomena not limited to martial arts. Tez, I know that we've even had people lecture LEO and others on this forum about "reality". Their sense of reality, of course being watching sparring on YouTube. "that'll do".
> 
> 
> 
> With all do respect here. I think you're trying to salvage an overplayed hand and I think you're handling it well, but the real lesson here is (picking on you, but certainly you're not the first or the worst) that when you make declarative statements of fact on the internet, occasionally people who are in fact experts on the topic you suggested understanding of come along and call you out on it. I applaud your response and recovery, but it appears you got caught out on a limb here. I don't study this system, so I can only follow the dialogue and wouldn't have known one way or another on the subject you have been debating otherwise.
> 
> There's a direct parallel to the OPs declarative statement that he knows better than the long time students and teachers here and elsewhere and essentially holding his (implied) quick and early success in this field with people who have been pursuing mastery.
> 
> This issue, at heart, defines this and other forums on martial arts. The frustrating thing is that the classicalists seem to be more or less fine with people going to straight to combat sports and being satisfied with their choices. But that respect doesn't seem to extend the other way. There was a recent thread that I eventually unsubscribed from and blocked the OP over where he started it by saying that it was his mission and duty to expose everyone in the world as frauds who did anything other than UFC style training. That pretty much sums it up.




I'm not going to comment on this thread with my tail between my legs. 

I make bold statements, because that's the type of person I am. I am VERY opinionated, but open to criticism at the same time; NOT conflict.

Please don't get me wrong when I say this, but quite frankly I don't care how I come across to you people on here or what you think about me, because you don't know me in person.

I don't have much time for people who try to express their authority over others on the Internet. Only INSECURE people feel the need to tower over others. At the end of the day, you are all just people like I am; & I am not going out on a limb; I WANT to learn.

I also don't care if my bold statements make me look ignorant or insipid. I'm lowly enough to admit to my mistakes, & to admit that I'm not perfect. VERY few people can do that. 

I'm not on here to impress people. I am simply MYSELF. 

If people don't like it, I'll delete my account. I'd rather talk to genuine people than to people who pretend to be something they're not.


----------



## Tarrycat

Tez3 said:


> But as we've seen it's not in your art is it. It's in what *you* study but as we've been told it's not in the art itself.



Yes. That's it...


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tarrycat said:


> I'm not going to comment on this thread with my tail between my legs.
> 
> I make bold statements, because that's the type of person I am. I am VERY opinionated, but open to criticism at the same time; NOT conflict.
> 
> Please don't get me wrong when I say this, but quite frankly I don't care how I come across to you people on here or what you think about me, because you don't know me in person.
> 
> I don't have much time for people who try to express their authority over others on the Internet. Only INSECURE people feel the need to tower over others. At the end of the day, you are all just people like I am; & I am not going out on a limb; I WANT to learn.
> 
> I also don't care if my bold statements make me look ignorant or insipid. I'm lowly enough to admit to my mistakes, & to admit that I'm not perfect. VERY few people can do that.
> 
> I'm not on here to impress people. I am simply MYSELF.
> 
> If people don't like it, I'll delete my account. I'd rather talk to genuine people than to people who pretend to be something they're not.


That's an awfully strong reaction to a reasonably worded, relatively friendly post.


----------



## lklawson

Tarrycat said:


> I don't have much time for people who try to express their authority over others on the Internet. Only INSECURE people feel the need to tower over others


Not trying to offend, but I don't think that is true.  It's not insecurity that drives it, it's the very human need to establish Dominance.  This is particularly true for young adult men, where it is often called "The Monkey Dance" but still holds true very often for women as well and still continues to greater or lesser degrees as we age.

Heck, it's true of a great many mammals, from the "Alpha Male" wolf to the "Lead Mare" horse.

Misidentifying or dismissing it as "insecurity" is a mistake which could cause problems.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tarrycat

Tony Dismukes said:


> Everyone older than me is a geezer. Everyone younger than me is a whippersnapper.
> 
> You're younger than me. That makes you a whippersnapper.



What is a whippersnapper?


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tarrycat said:


> What is a whippersnapper?


A callow youth. A stripling. A snot-nosed kid who doesn't remember how we did things in the good old days and who needs to get off my lawn with that noise they call music these days.

As opposed to a geezer - a broken down old fart who keeps droning on about some boring old history that nobody cares about any more.

My own age is, of course, the perfect balance of youthful energy and mature wisdom.


----------



## Tarrycat

lklawson said:


> Not trying to offend, but I don't think that is true.  It's not insecurity that drives it, it's the very human need to establish Dominance.  This is particularly true for young adult men, where it is often called "The Monkey Dance" but still holds true very often for women as well and still continues to greater or lesser degrees as we age.
> 
> Heck, it's true of a great many mammals, from the "Alpha Male" wolf to the "Lead Mare" horse.
> 
> Misidentifying or dismissing it as "insecurity" is a mistake which could cause problems.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Well, I'm not a woman that likes to be controlled. Protected, yes. Controlled, no. My father was controlling enough, so it stems from my childhood. I'm a complete rebel now.

When I think of authority:

Autocrative leadership style - HITLER was an autocrative leader. 

A MAN of true integrity supports others, he provides, he helps others grow, he doesn't compromise his standards, he doesn't look down upon others... That's what enviable leadership is to me. I don't like people in who think they're better than others. 

Someone who goes out of their way to make another person feel insignificant, IS insecure to me. It's a horrible character trait & a BIG turn off coming from a man.

Most of you men on here lack empathy. You don't take into consideration that I don't think like you do, & that I think on an emotional level.

That's the difference between men & women. It's not in my biology to be able to explain in logical terms the things that I feel or experience. I express it through emotion, not on the bloody Internet. In fact, it only frustrates me. You ALL frustrate me.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> A callow youth. A stripling. A snot-nosed kid who doesn't remember how we did things in the good old days and who needs to get off my lawn with that noise they call music these days.
> 
> As opposed to a geezer - a broken down old fart who keeps droning on about some boring old history that nobody cares about any more.
> 
> My own age is, of course, the perfect balance of youthful energy and mature wisdom.


You're almost right. You have the dividing line off by about 5 years, though.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tarrycat said:


> Most of you men on here lack empathy.


That's a rather sweeping generalization, and not well supported by evidence.


----------



## ShortBridge

Okay


----------



## Tarrycat

I meant AUTOCRATIC. I'm mixing my English with a bit of Afrikaans.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tarrycat said:


> I meant AUTOCRATIC. I'm mixing my English with a bit of Afrikaans.


Odd, I didn't even catch that. Is that the word in Afrikaans? I've been exposed to Afrikaans from time to time, and have never picked up even a single word of it (odd for me - I usually pick up bits of languages).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tarrycat said:


> That's the difference between men & women. It's not in my biology to be able to explain in logical terms the things that I feel or experience. I express it through emotion, not on the bloody Internet. In fact, it only frustrates me. You ALL frustrate me.


By the way, that's not as much male/female as a communication style. My wife is far more logical than I am (and, yet, more apt to react emotionally, except at sad movies, where I'm always the one who cries).


----------



## Tez3

Tony Dismukes said:


> As opposed to a geezer - a broken down old fart who keeps droning on about some boring old history that nobody cares about any more.



doesn't mean that in the UK.

Urban Dictionary: geezer


----------



## Tez3

Tarrycat said:


> Most of you men on here lack empathy. You don't take into consideration that I don't think like you do, & that I think on an emotional level.
> 
> That's the difference between men & women. It's not in my biology to be able to explain in logical terms the things that I feel or experience. I express it through emotion, not on the bloody Internet. In fact, it only frustrates me. You ALL frustrate me.



It would be a big mistake to assume everyone on here is male.


----------



## Buka

Tarrycat, where are you from in South Africa?


----------



## Tez3

Okay let's take this calmly and quietly.




Tarrycat said:


> Well, I'm not a woman that likes to be controlled. Protected, yes. Controlled, no. My father was controlling enough, so it stems from my childhood. I'm a complete rebel now.



No one likes being controlled. However no one on here is trying to control you, people are certainly disagreeing with you but that is part and parcel of what happens in debates. this place is a little different form many sites, here if you make a statement you should also cite your proof for thinking what you do. It's perhaps a bit more academic in that way but it helps us all learn.



Tarrycat said:


> A MAN of true integrity supports others, he provides, he helps others grow, he doesn't compromise his standards, he doesn't look down upon others... That's what enviable leadership is to me. I don't like people in who think they're better than others.



I don't know what 'enviable' leadership is but I can tell you no one who has posted on here thinks they are better than anyone else, I think you are reading far too much into what you think you are seeing.




Tarrycat said:


> Someone who goes out of their way to make another person feel insignificant, IS insecure to me. It's a horrible character trait & a BIG turn off coming from a man.



No one is trying to make you or anyone else feel insignificant.



Tarrycat said:


> Most of you men on here lack empathy. You don't take into consideration that I don't think like you do, & that I think on an emotional level.



How are we supposed to know how you think? You may think on an emotional level, not all women do however so please don't go down the road that men are picking on you because you are female. Many women can think very logically ( and many men can't) and explain things perfectly well without having a meltdown because they can't make themselves understood. I would suggest you can't explain it because you don't understand it. this has nothing to do with gender.




Tarrycat said:


> That's the difference between men & women. It's not in my biology to be able to explain in logical terms the things that I feel or experience. I express it through emotion, not on the bloody Internet. In fact, it only frustrates me. You ALL frustrate me



No, this is personal to you, please don't lump all women into this 'thinking emotionally' rubbish, there's nothing in women's brains that mean they can only feel things but not explain them. This is your issue, not women's, the frustration you feel is your inability to express yourself for whatever reason. perhaps because English isn't your first language? Perhaps because what you are trying to explain to us hasn't been explained to you properly which is what I suspect. I think it sounds very powerful and wonderful when the instructor is speaking to his enthralled students but when it comes to the students actually understanding and being able to explain it, it's just not there.

I am not picking on you but trying to get over to you that perhaps as a new student you aren't experienced enough to know that what your instructor is telling you isn't only valid (probably) for what he teaches, it's not valid for all styles, not even the ones from Japan.

Take a deep breath and focus on what the real problem is.


----------



## drop bear

Tarrycat said:


> I never referred to anything as being "mystic", until someone else brought it up. What I DID do, is mention the Godai. That's what I did. I tried to explain what lies behind all the "mysticism" - if THAT is what people who know absolutely nothing about the art would like to view it as. My purpose was never to make anything seem unrealistic, until someone else gave it that impression.
> 
> Read my very first comment on this thread. It AAAAAALLLLLLLL escalated from there.
> 
> If the readers were anything like me, they would read on to avoid any confusion & to educate themselves.
> 
> (So, if you're reading this thread, READ ON, DON'T STOP).



In any event what you seem to be explaining is your teacher can do whatever task with more finesse because he has spent a long time doing it.

Which is as aplicable to kata as it is to dropping people on their head.

So I dont have an issue with your point.


----------



## ShortBridge

For the record, I didn't realize that Terrycat was a woman until she made me abundantly clear of that. Sort of like how she didn't realize that at least one of the men she was calling out is...in fact...also a woman.

All that said, I will apologize, if what I typed made you feel that I was bullying you or trying to belittle you. It was not my intention, nor what was in my heart. 

I will say that none of my students are on the internet telling Wing Chun sifus and si-gungs about Wing Chun. I would strongly disapprove of them doing so and would have no qualms about expressing that to them in ways that made them very uncomfortable. It is my responsibility to do so. You're not my student, so I was instead trying to politely suggest that you take a step back and consider that all of that time you spent trying to explain your system to experts, you could have been listening to them instead. I'm also not your teacher, nor do I know anything about the system you study, so you're free to disregard anything I say entirely. It's all good.

Not a male/female thing. A traditional martial arts thing. In Chinese and Japanese systems, there is rank and hierarchy. I'm sure there is in your dojo and there certainly is in the community at large.


----------



## Hyoho

hey never express an opinion





hoshin1600 said:


> _Iwo no mi...._Miyamoto Niten
> 
> _Marobashi no michi....._Yagyu sekishusai
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There im sure everyone understand now.



Musashi's description of Iwo no mi describes a stance as being the "body of a rock" To derive immovable power from a very low stance. This can be seen in Sumo. Those that practice his school can adhere to this theory. But.............. it was written for his students.

But it was not just in kenjutsu attiude. It can also be seen in Western arts. Classical shools dont grade. That's what makes em 'classical'. Those that profess to do classical arts and grade are usually a made up mish-mash.

Japanese do tests. They even test for 10 minutes after a school day.  Japanese sit, shut up. They neven ever ask questions and listen. So how do you find out if they absorbed what you taught them? Tests/gradings. It's a Japanese education thing!


----------



## Tarrycat

gpseymour said:


> By the way, that's not as much male/female as a communication style. My wife is far more logical than I am (and, yet, more apt to react emotionally, except at sad movies, where I'm always the one who cries).



I believe that your wife & I are two separate individuals. Some women are more in tune with their emotions. I struggle a lot to express myself over texting; which is why I avoid it. 

I rarely make sense to men when I use any social media platform. 

That's just me.


----------



## Tez3

Tarrycat said:


> I believe that your wife & I are two separate individuals. Some women are more in tune with their emotions. I struggle a lot to express myself over texting; which is why I avoid it.
> 
> I rarely make sense to men when I use any social media platform.
> 
> That's just me.



You make perfect sense to *all of us* when you write, except when you tried to explain what your instructor has been teaching you in regards to the elements. As I explained I believe this is because he is explaining things in a quasi mystical way instead of in plain terms, so it's not your lack of understanding that is at fault but his explanations being over complicated. He may have told you, believing it to be true, that it's a common thought in Japan and Japanese martial arts when it's not as shown by posters from Japan as well as those who have been training martial arts fro decades in Japanese (and Okinawan styles which is a whole other conversation). 


I find that blaming things on a male/female divide as well as blaming men for not understanding women is weak frankly. I have spent years fighting for female equality and have been in situations where I've had to fight hard to prove I can do a job/task as well as any man, I've had numerous comments about women being 'emotional' and therefore unable to do certain things (boxing was one thing) and I don't like that card being pulled here because you feel they are picking on you. They didn't know until you mentioned it that you were female, they treated you as an equal, as a poster not a male or female. to whinge now that you are an emotional female who needs looking after is a betrayal of every woman who has fought hard to be treated as an equal. I'm sorry if that comes across as harsh, I'm not looking to belittle you or bully you, just to explain that on here you will be seen as a poster who loves martial arts, not as a male or female. You didn't realise I was female nor that we have posters from all around the world including Japan, we have well respected experts in their respective martial arts styles here who have studied for decades. When you pass on what your instructor has told you then we do read it and five on our opinions. Often though it's not an opinion though but actual facts. You can take it as it's offered or you can read into an attack on you ( personal attacks are banned on here btw). We do have some posters who are inclined to be aggressive but you can ignore them if you want ( there's a button for that) or employ gleefully an arsenal of sarcasm at them or jokes, they work well. Just remember every time you get a laugh out of a bad situation you've won!


----------



## Tarrycat

gpseymour said:


> Odd, I didn't even catch that. Is that the word in Afrikaans? I've been exposed to Afrikaans from time to time, and have never picked up even a single word of it (odd for me - I usually pick up bits of languages).



No, the Afrikaans word is "Autokraties" - I was very tired, so it made sense to me at that time to type "autocrative" after the word "authoritative"  - that word doesn't even exist... . I was supposed to be sleeping by the time I posted it.


----------



## Tez3

Tarrycat said:


> No, the Afrikaans word is "Autokraties" - I was very tired, so it made sense to me at that time to type "autocrative" after the word "authoritative"  - that word doesn't even exist... . I was supposed to be sleeping by the time I posted it.



The time difference between posters on here can be a problem sometimes. I can get into a great conversation and end up not going to bed until the early hours while others here are having their lunch!


----------



## Tarrycat

Tez3 said:


> You make perfect sense to *all of us* when you write, except when you tried to explain what your instructor has been teaching you in regards to the elements. As I explained I believe this is because he is explaining things in a quasi mystical way instead of in plain terms, so it's not your lack of understanding that is at fault but his explanations being over complicated. He may have told you, believing it to be true, that it's a common thought in Japan and Japanese martial arts when it's not as shown by posters from Japan as well as those who have been training martial arts fro decades in Japanese (and Okinawan styles which is a whole other conversation).
> 
> 
> I find that blaming things on a male/female divide as well as blaming men for not understanding women is weak frankly. I have spent years fighting for female equality and have been in situations where I've had to fight hard to prove I can do a job/task as well as any man, I've had numerous comments about women being 'emotional' and therefore unable to do certain things (boxing was one thing) and I don't like that card being pulled here because you feel they are picking on you. They didn't know until you mentioned it that you were female, they treated you as an equal, as a poster not a male or female. to whinge now that you are an emotional female who needs looking after is a betrayal of every woman who has fought hard to be treated as an equal. I'm sorry if that comes across as harsh, I'm not looking to belittle you or bully you, just to explain that on here you will be seen as a poster who loves martial arts, not as a male or female. You didn't realise I was female nor that we have posters from all around the world including Japan, we have well respected experts in their respective martial arts styles here who have studied for decades. When you pass on what your instructor has told you then we do read it and five on our opinions. Often though it's not an opinion though but actual facts. You can take it as it's offered or you can read into an attack on you ( personal attacks are banned on here btw). We do have some posters who are inclined to be aggressive but you can ignore them if you want ( there's a button for that) or employ gleefully an arsenal of sarcasm at them or jokes, they work well. Just remember every time you get a laugh out of a bad situation you've won!



My intention was not to blame men in any way. I was expressing my emotions at that time, but I could've conveyed it better by giving the message a playful undertone. It was sort of like banter in my mind, given the "angry" emoticon. Frustrated yes, but far from angry. Usually anger is an emotion used to cover up underlying emotions such as hurt or frustration. The message is then conveyed through aggression, instead of coming from an authentic place.

If any men felt like I was offending them, or disrespecting them, I deeply apologise for that.

I'm not at all anti-men, in fact, I do deeply respect them & love them for how unique they are.

Everyone is entitled to how they want to be treated. I have no problem with that.

I AM a highly misunderstood individual though. There is no getting away from that. However, I will try my best to be more sensible.

My teacher explains kata logically as well. He is able to explain it in various ways; but I'm the one who finds it a bit difficult to put it into words; he won't have a problem with it. As I become more experienced, I will get better at explaining everything in words.

Whenever we do some Aikido or kata that involves a lot of momentum, or locks, I'll just mention the words "Steven Seagal" & everyone will know what I'm trying to say. The word "energy" is just too diverse, I've come to realise!


----------



## Tarrycat

It's terrible!! But I can't allow it to interfere with my daily schedule. I will end up falling asleep on the horse's back or in class. LOL.  


Tez3 said:


> The time difference between posters on here can be a problem sometimes. I can get into a great conversation and end up not going to bed until the early hours while others here are having their lunch!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> The time difference between posters on here can be a problem sometimes. I can get into a great conversation and end up not going to bed until the early hours while others here are having their lunch!


And when I need people on here to entertain me when I'm bored, somehow it's the middle of the night everywhere.


----------



## Tez3

Tarrycat said:


> I do deeply respect them & love them for how unique they are.



Men are as individual as women, some need more training than others though 



Tarrycat said:


> My teacher explains kata logically as well. He is able to explain it in various ways;



I think what he's doing though is explaining how* he* does it which doesn't mean that that's how it should be done in that style nor how it's done anywhere else. I wouldn't take what he says as being true for all styles or even as done by others within that style.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

gpseymour said:


> You're almost right. You have the dividing line off by about 5 years, though.


History moves on and the dividing line moves with it. 5 years ago, the perfect age was 48. Now it's 53. Not my fault if the rest of you can't keep up.


----------



## Tarrycat

I think what he's doing though is explaining how* he* does it which doesn't mean that that's how it should be done in that style nor how it's done anywhere else. I wouldn't take what he says as being true for all styles or even as done by others within that style.[/QUOTE]

Oh goodness, no!

What works in Ninjutsu, will not necessarily (or not AT ALL)  work in other Martial Arts divisions. Each one is unique on its own.

That's why I asked if the "energy" (momentum kata & all that) was applicable to all Martial Arts, I was not certain AT ALL.


----------



## Tarrycat

Tez3 said:


> Men are as individual as women, some need more training than others though
> 
> LOL. "Training" = perfect wording!
> 
> I think what he's doing though is explaining how* he* does it which doesn't mean that that's how it should be done in that style nor how it's done anywhere else. I wouldn't take what he says as being true for all styles or even as done by others within that style.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tarrycat said:


> I think what he's doing though is explaining how* he* does it which doesn't mean that that's how it should be done in that style nor how it's done anywhere else. I wouldn't take what he says as being true for all styles or even as done by others within that style.



Oh goodness, no!

What works in Ninjutsu, will not necessarily (or not AT ALL)  work in other Martial Arts divisions. Each one is unique on its own.

That's why I asked if the "energy" (momentum kata & all that) was applicable to all Martial Arts, I was not certain AT ALL. [/QUOTE]
I'm not certain I understand the question implicit in the last sentence (and I'm apparently too lazy to go back and look up where you originally asked it ), so if my answer doesn't fit, that's why.

IMO, there's always some consideration of energy/momentum. Different arts look at it differently. Within Nihon Goshin Aikido, as I teach it, I could roughly group my teachings into three categories (for standing work - I'd have to think how this fits with groundwork). 

There's clashing force, which I tend to think of as like when you get hit just right by a 3-foot wave at the beach. It hits you hard, but it's relaxed when it does it. This is how most striking arts seem to deliver their strikes. A leg sweep often uses this kind of force, too.

There's blending force, which I tend to think of ask like when a wave at the beach lifts you up and carries you, without hitting. This can be very smooth (a gentle swell lifts you and moves you a bit before letting your feet settle down) or rough (like when a wave catches you and tumbles you across the ocean floor before it passes). A good hip throw can have this in it. (NOTE: The smooth version of this could be seen as being like a strong wind catching a bag you're carrying, pulling you off your feet.)

Then there's dropping force, which is like someone suddenly attached a large stone to you, then let go of it. Sometimes the stone is stationary, and drops straight down (Judo's drop seoi nage is a good example of this), and sometimes it's like the rock is swinging past on a rope when it gets attached to you.

There are probably others I could come up with, but everytime I find something that doesn't fit in these three, it seems to be mostly muscular force, where I'm forcing a technique that doesn't quite fit. So, I ignore the exceptions, and use these three as guidelines. If something doesn't fit into them, I check to make sure I'm not doing something wrong.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tarrycat said:


> I don't have much time for people who try to express their authority over others on the Internet.


As others have said, no one in this conversation was trying to belittle you or express authority over you in the sense of telling you what to do. We were trying to correct some misunderstandings you had regarding kata and ninjutsu.

Even so, it's best not to uncritically accept us as authorities. It's true that some of us have decades more experience than you have and are reasonably knowledgeable about certain topics in martial arts. However, you don't know that for sure. For all you know we could be a bunch of BS artists making stuff up or repeating something we read on an unreliable website.  Even people who do have 30-40 years of experience and are highly skilled in their art can be mistaken on significant facts. At this point you don't have enough experience and background to necessarily recognize if we were telling you a bunch of nonsense under the pretense of being some sort of subject matter experts.

That doesn't mean you should just argue with the experts based on your understanding of what your teacher told you. Best thing is to find out the background of the people who are telling you things and what their sources of information are for what they are telling you. Then take each statement into consideration as a piece of potential evidence to be evaluated in the light of whatever other information you can gather.

(BTW - the same goes for information from your own teacher. You know that his physical skill level is significantly higher than your own. That doesn't necessarily mean that his information on the history of the art is correct or that he is knowledgeable on other matters besides the skills of his particular interpretation of his art. Most martial artists are not historians and many just trustingly pass on a bunch of inaccurate myths they heard from their own instructor.)


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tarrycat said:


> That's why I asked if the "energy" (momentum kata & all that) was applicable to all Martial Arts, I was not certain AT ALL.


Understanding "energy" in various forms (generating force, blending with force, momentum, psychological state, understanding the "feel" of a particular movement, etc, etc) is pretty much a universal concept in the martial arts.

What differs are the particulars of how that energy is applied and how it is conceptualized. The "godai" classification you originally brought up is pretty unique to those branches of the X-kan family which have been influenced by Stephen Hayes's ideas. for that matter, it sounds like the way your teacher is explaining it may have evolved a bit from Steve's original formulation.


----------



## lklawson

Tarrycat said:


> Well, I'm not a woman that likes to be controlled. Protected, yes. Controlled, no. My father was controlling enough, so it stems from my childhood. I'm a complete rebel now.
> 
> When I think of authority:
> 
> Autocrative leadership style - HITLER was an autocrative leader.
> 
> A MAN of true integrity supports others, he provides, he helps others grow, he doesn't compromise his standards, he doesn't look down upon others... That's what enviable leadership is to me. I don't like people in who think they're better than others.
> 
> Someone who goes out of their way to make another person feel insignificant, IS insecure to me. It's a horrible character trait & a BIG turn off coming from a man.
> 
> Most of you men on here lack empathy. You don't take into consideration that I don't think like you do, & that I think on an emotional level.
> 
> That's the difference between men & women. It's not in my biology to be able to explain in logical terms the things that I feel or experience. I express it through emotion, not on the bloody Internet. In fact, it only frustrates me. You ALL frustrate me.


I think you misunderstand.  A person may or may not be immature, controlling, or, in particular, "insecure."  That is not the reason for the Monkey Dance.  The Monkey Dance is not about "control" per se.  It is about Social Hierarchy.  This is a very different thing.


----------



## lklawson

ShortBridge said:


> All that said, I will apologize, if what I typed made you feel that I was bullying you or trying to belittle you. It was not my intention, nor what was in my heart.


Why?  Why apologize for something you weren't doing?  You didn't do it, there's no need.  You're not in charge of how someone else feels.

I get that you want to be nice, but you are only responsible for people you are actually responsible for.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Tarrycat said:


> If any men felt like I was offending them, or disrespecting them, I deeply apologise for that.


Don't apologize.   No one has the right to "not be offended" particularly if you were not trying to be offensive nor using deliberately offensive statements.  There are certainly places, times, and (in some circumstances) people, in which you must adhere to a specific manner of behavior.  It is, for example, in my opinion, inappropriate to engage in demeaning sexual innuendo at any time with any person.  It is also inappropriate to swear and curse in church ...or to my mother.  But if you have differing opinions that I do on politics, gender roles, racial issues, or whether or not Yoko Ono ruined the Beatles, well, I can be "offended" if I want and it's not your responsibility.  My feelings are mine; you aren't responsible for them.  Your feelings are yours and I am darn sure not responsible if you are offended if I believe something you disagree with.

Don't apologize.  In general people need to get a bit thicker skins but, here on MT, most people have pretty thick skins already.  And, indeed, even if they are offended by you, what are they gonna do?  Say "mean" things?  Pft.  Who cares?  There's a saying from when I was a child (back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth): "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me."



> Everyone is entitled to how they want to be treated.


No they're not.  Everyone is "entitled" to pretty much nothing.  I like it best when people are treated how they've earned being treated but even that isn't a surety.



> I AM a highly misunderstood individual though. There is no getting away from that. However, I will try my best to be more sensible.
> 
> My teacher explains kata logically as well. He is able to explain it in various ways; but I'm the one who finds it a bit difficult to put it into words; he won't have a problem with it. As I become more experienced, I will get better at explaining everything in words.
> 
> Whenever we do some Aikido or kata that involves a lot of momentum, or locks, I'll just mention the words "Steven Seagal" & everyone will know what I'm trying to say. The word "energy" is just too diverse, I've come to realise!


Keep studying.  You will probably find that there is a vast world of martial arts and not everything is the way you learned it.  Except that as you advance you find that everything is the same.  Martial arts are all different except that they're not.  I hate quoting Bruce Lee (so I won't) but his observation here, God rest his soul, is spot on.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Tez3 said:


> I can tell you no one who has posted on here thinks they are better than anyone else,


I do.  I also think that you're better than a lot of people.  I think that Tarrycat is probably "better than" a lot of people.  I think that most of the posters here on MT are "better" than a lot of people.  

Did I tell you about when I got a Jury Summons for a case of a guy accused of raping a mentally handicapped girl?  Yeah, I *DEFINITELY* think you, and probably everyone else here, is "better" than that!  It might be a low bar, so to speak, but it is "better."  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tony Dismukes

lklawson said:


> Why?  Why apologize for something you weren't doing?  You didn't do it, there's no need.  You're not in charge of how someone else feels.
> 
> I get that you want to be nice, but you are only responsible for people you are actually responsible for.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


It's social lubrication. If I'm talking with someone and they're feelings get hurt, maybe it's not my fault at all. Maybe it's 10% my fault. Maybe it's 50% my fault. Maybe it's nobody's fault, but a result of different communication styles or expectations or external circumstances. Maybe I can't accurately evaluate whether or how much it's my fault due to egocentric bias and my own limited perceptions. Nevertheless, it doesn't hurt anything to offer an apology as a way of reassuring the other person that I don't wish to offend and will do my best to avoid doing so in the future. Doing so tends to make people feel better and also increases the chances that the other person will listen to what I say next with an open mind.

If it becomes obvious that the other person is being completely unreasonable or manipulative, then I can step back and not play into their game, but I'd rather err on the side of niceness to begin with.

(Not presuming to speak for ShortBridge, just offering my own general thoughts on the matter.)


----------



## lklawson

Tarrycat said:


> I think what he's doing though is explaining how* he* does it which doesn't mean that that's how it should be done in that style nor how it's done anywhere else. I wouldn't take what he says as being true for all styles or even as done by others within that style.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh goodness, no!
> 
> What works in Ninjutsu, will not necessarily (or not AT ALL)  work in other Martial Arts divisions.
Click to expand...

The heck you say!  The human body isn't particularly different across the globe.  It only bends in certain ways and it moves the same.  What breaks off parts from some guy with skin so white that he burns in moonlight still breaks off things from someone with high melanin content or someone with an epicanthic fold.   And the same thing goes for the technique used to break stuff off.  What works in one, works in all.  Now, if you want to argue strategies and approaches, such as is typified by the "linear vs circular" debate or the "ground vs standing" debate and how well each can mesh in the others methodology and system, well, that's one thing.  But they can be made to mesh.


----------



## hoshin1600

Hyoho said:


> hey never express an opinion
> 
> Musashi's description of Iwo no mi describes a stance as being the "body of a rock" To derive immovable power from a very low stance. This can be seen in Sumo. Those that practice his school can adhere to this theory. But.............. it was written for his students.
> 
> But it was not just in kenjutsu attiude. It can also be seen in Western arts. Classical shools dont grade. That's what makes em 'classical'. Those that profess to do classical arts and grade are usually a made up mish-mash.
> 
> Japanese do tests. They even test for 10 minutes after a school day.  Japanese sit, shut up. They neven ever ask questions and listen. So how do you find out if they absorbed what you taught them? Tests/gradings. It's a Japanese education thing!
> 
> View attachment 21025



  I pulled those two lines from the Daihonzan Chozen JI  cannon written by Omori Sogen.  A linage i belonged to.  we would read the cannon before every practice.
i figured you and Chris would be the only ones who would even have a clue as to what i was talking about.  of course i was making that post in sarcasm, making a point of the uselessness of using words which are more of "insider" terminology rather than common speak that everyone can grasp.


----------



## Tarrycat

gpseymour said:


> Oh goodness, no!
> 
> What works in Ninjutsu, will not necessarily (or not AT ALL)  work in other Martial Arts divisions. Each one is unique on its own.
> 
> That's why I asked if the "energy" (momentum kata & all that) was applicable to all Martial Arts, I was not certain AT ALL.


I'm not certain I understand the question implicit in the last sentence (and I'm apparently too lazy to go back and look up where you originally asked it ), so if my answer doesn't fit, that's why.

IMO, there's always some consideration of energy/momentum. Different arts look at it differently. Within Nihon Goshin Aikido, as I teach it, I could roughly group my teachings into three categories (for standing work - I'd have to think how this fits with groundwork).

There's clashing force, which I tend to think of as like when you get hit just right by a 3-foot wave at the beach. It hits you hard, but it's relaxed when it does it. This is how most striking arts seem to deliver their strikes. A leg sweep often uses this kind of force, too.

There's blending force, which I tend to think of ask like when a wave at the beach lifts you up and carries you, without hitting. This can be very smooth (a gentle swell lifts you and moves you a bit before letting your feet settle down) or rough (like when a wave catches you and tumbles you across the ocean floor before it passes). A good hip throw can have this in it. (NOTE: The smooth version of this could be seen as being like a strong wind catching a bag you're carrying, pulling you off your feet.)

Then there's dropping force, which is like someone suddenly attached a large stone to you, then let go of it. Sometimes the stone is stationary, and drops straight down (Judo's drop seoi nage is a good example of this), and sometimes it's like the rock is swinging past on a rope when it gets attached to you.

There are probably others I could come up with, but everytime I find something that doesn't fit in these three, it seems to be mostly muscular force, where I'm forcing a technique that doesn't quite fit. So, I ignore the exceptions, and use these three as guidelines. If something doesn't fit into them, I check to make sure I'm not doing something wrong.[/QUOTE]

I was giving an opinion based on the Godai, I mentioned the different energies associated with each "element", or however every other martial art would like to view it as; & then it escalated from there. I never stated facts, only opinions. Some guy said that it was founded by Steven K. Hayes, my one Genbukan friend says the opposite. So, really, I would just like to know the truth, because I don't want to be misinformed if ever someone asks me these questions. I don't want to lead people onto the wrong path.

Exactly what you're describing right now, is how we implement our kata; sometimes explaining to me is not enough, & then my teacher will train with me. By then I can grasp the entire concept. It takes beginners a while to tap into that feeling... I'm naturally a VERY tense person; & when I tense up, it makes it a lot harder for me to do the kata... I'm used to boxing, & lifting weights. 

I know my explanations were of no help; but I will look for some videos online, & show you guys the techniques when I have some time on my hands. I'd love to share it with you!  

Thank you for the input, it was very helpful! 

I never asked you what division you train in? ..  I never asked ANYONE...


----------



## lklawson

Tarrycat said:


> I'm naturally a VERY tense person; & when I tense up, it makes it a lot harder for me to do the kata... I'm used to boxing, & lifting weights.


Tensing up is bad in boxing too, unless you just happen to like telegraphing to your sparring partner.  

Tensing in lifting is bad too.  Off hand, the only exercise I can think of in which "tensing up" is not a bad thing would be Charles Atlas' "Dynamic Tension" system and its derivatives.  Pretty much everything else, it becomes a hindrance.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tarrycat said:


> I was giving an opinion based on the Godai, I mentioned the different energies associated with each "element", or however every other martial art would like to view it as; & then it escalated from there. I never stated facts, only opinions. Some guy said that it was founded by Steven K. Hayes, my one Genbukan friend says the opposite. So, really, I would just like to know the truth, because I don't want to be misinformed if ever someone asks me these questions. I don't want to lead people onto the wrong path.
> 
> Exactly what you're describing right now, is how we implement our kata; sometimes explaining to me is not enough, & then my teacher will train with me. By then I can grasp the entire concept. It takes beginners a while to tap into that feeling... I'm naturally a VERY tense person; & when I tense up, it makes it a lot harder for me to do the kata... I'm used to boxing, & lifting weights.
> 
> I know my explanations were of no help; but I will look for some videos online, & show you guys the techniques when I have some time on my hands. I'd love to share it with you!
> 
> Thank you for the input, it was very helpful!
> 
> I never asked you what division you train in? ..  I never asked ANYONE...



To your last comment - I'm not sure if that was a response to something in particular. I often mention the art I teach/train in, because it provides context to folks who are familiar with the type of art.

Another thought - boxing benefits from relaxation, too. Someone too tense (or, perhaps more accurately, incorrectly tense) in boxing will feel the punches more, deliver less power, and move more slowly. Learning to use relaxation and tension properly is a common theme across martial arts. Most people have some "natural" incorrect tension - we unlearn it (it's actually a learned tension) over time.


----------



## Hyoho

hoshin1600 said:


> I pulled those two lines from the Daihonzan Chozen JI  cannon written by Omori Sogen.  A linage i belonged to.  we would read the cannon before every practice.
> i figured you and Chris would be the only ones who would even have a clue as to what i was talking about.  of course i was making that post in sarcasm, making a point of the uselessness of using words which are more of "insider" terminology rather than common speak that everyone can grasp.



Still trying to figure out where the "hey never express an opinion" bit got tagged on to the beggining of the post. Not my language. Sorry about that.


----------



## Ironbear24

You are what is wrong with the martial arts community. I can spend hours rebutting every statement you said but in the end it comes down to this.

You do not know, so you've taken some shotokan? So what, I have taken a couple of cooking classes but that doesn't mean I'm some authority on cooking when there are others who have years and decades over me.

You speak of kata out of ignorance, kata is not only to help with fighting, in fact it has little to do with it. Kata is about teaching you principles that when reflected upon will help you be a better fighter, it also is more of a workout as many emphasis slow motions in very deep stances.

This is to build your feet, shins and overall legs to be strong. Strong roots mean a better fighter, kata teaches breathing, if you are not breathing properly you will be gassed out and be more prone to getting injured, ever take a bunch as you are breathing in rather than out? It is not pleasant. Try throwing a strike while breathing in rather than out, you see less power in it. 

Now as for the MMA fighter beating a wing Chun "master". That all comes down to methods of training which is more on the individuals rather than "style." My karate we spar and do many live drills, but many times we also do lighter stuff depending on which students are around. You cannot train heavy all the time, if I were to do iron shirt training all of the time I would literally break. 

If you spar less than someone else then you will more than likely lose to them, no matter the styles, it is really that simple. The best fighters even in MMA all have traditional martial arts under their belts, think about that as well and I mention this because you to like MMA. 

Now that brings the next point. You enjoy enjoy what you enjoy and that is ok, do what you enjoy and no one will have issues. However when you make it a point to come out and belittle other things then that is not only wasting your own time, time that you could be spending doing what you enjoy. 

But it makes you appear like a fool, but I suppose that's to be expected when you're "fuhrer" is an utter pile of crap.


----------



## Tez3

lklawson said:


> The heck you say!  The human body isn't particularly different across the globe.  It only bends in certain ways and it moves the same.  What breaks off parts from some guy with skin so white that he burns in moonlight still breaks off things from someone with high melanin content or someone with an epicanthic fold.   And the same thing goes for the technique used to break stuff off.  What works in one, works in all.  Now, if you want to argue strategies and approaches, such as is typified by the "linear vs circular" debate or the "ground vs standing" debate and how well each can mesh in the others methodology and system, well, that's one thing.  But they can be made to mesh.



Er no, I was referring to the earth wind and fire ( aren't they a group or am I showing my age) part of teaching, it may be true for that particular instructor but isn't common elsewhere. I've looked it up and it seems more used in Reiki, healing and spiritual type thing rather than martial arts.


----------



## lklawson

Tez3 said:


> Er no, I was referring to the earth wind and fire ( aren't they a group or am I showing my age) part of teaching, it may be true for that particular instructor but isn't common elsewhere. I've looked it up and it seems more used in Reiki, healing and spiritual type thing rather than martial arts.


Unless there was an account hack, Tez didn't write what I replied to, Tarrycat did.

Tarrycat wrote, "What works in Ninjutsu, will not necessarily (or not AT ALL) work in other Martial Arts divisions."  I disagree with that assessment.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tarrycat

lklawson said:


> Tensing up is bad in boxing too, unless you just happen to like telegraphing to your sparring partner.
> 
> Tensing in lifting is bad too.  Off hand, the only exercise I can think of in which "tensing up" is not a bad thing would be Charles Atlas' "Dynamic Tension" system and its derivatives.  Pretty much everything else, it becomes a hindrance.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Lol. Well then I'm just a very tense person. I've noticed that while I'm sleeping (if I wake up during the night), my fingers are clenched. It's grown into a bad habit, but it's also because of stress. I usually drink muscle relaxants before I go to bed. It helps a lot. I have a mild case of anxiety. 

My Sensei once told me to drink a chill pill, because it was that bad. 

I'll get over it though. I hope. 

Thank you for the wise input. I didn't know that. I only did some boxing for fitness, but it's still good to know. Perhaps I just need to take meditation more serious & focus on that...


----------



## Tarrycat

Ironbear24 said:


> You are what is wrong with the martial arts community. I can spend hours rebutting every statement you said but in the end it comes down to this.
> 
> You do not know, so you've taken some shotokan? So what, I have taken a couple of cooking classes but that doesn't mean I'm some authority on cooking when there are others who have years and decades over me.
> 
> You speak of kata out of ignorance, kata is not only to help with fighting, in fact it has little to do with it. Kata is about teaching you principles that when reflected upon will help you be a better fighter, it also is more of a workout as many emphasis slow motions in very deep stances.
> 
> This is to build your feet, shins and overall legs to be strong. Strong roots mean a better fighter, kata teaches breathing, if you are not breathing properly you will be gassed out and be more prone to getting injured, ever take a bunch as you are breathing in rather than out? It is not pleasant. Try throwing a strike while breathing in rather than out, you see less power in it.
> 
> Now as for the MMA fighter beating a wing Chun "master". That all comes down to methods of training which is more on the individuals rather than "style." My karate we spar and do many live drills, but many times we also do lighter stuff depending on which students are around. You cannot train heavy all the time, if I were to do iron shirt training all of the time I would literally break.
> 
> If you spar less than someone else then you will more than likely lose to them, no matter the styles, it is really that simple. The best fighters even in MMA all have traditional martial arts under their belts, think about that as well and I mention this because you to like MMA.
> 
> Now that brings the next point. You enjoy enjoy what you enjoy and that is ok, do what you enjoy and no one will have issues. However when you make it a point to come out and belittle other things then that is not only wasting your own time, time that you could be spending doing what you enjoy.
> 
> But it makes you appear like a fool, but I suppose that's to be expected when you're "fuhrer" is an utter pile of crap.



Who are you talking to on here if I may ask?


----------



## Tarrycat

lklawson said:


> Unless there was an account hack, Tez didn't write what I replied to, Tarrycat did.
> 
> Tarrycat wrote, "What works in Ninjutsu, will not necessarily (or not AT ALL) work in other Martial Arts divisions."  I disagree with that assessment.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



As they say here in broken Zulu: "EISH!"

Now I'm confused about the messages... 

I'm very curious why you may disagree? Perhaps I can learn a bit more from your input. Have you tried some Ninjutsu in your art? If so, which kata did you like most & why?


----------



## Tez3

lklawson said:


> Unless there was an account hack, Tez didn't write what I replied to, Tarrycat did.
> 
> Tarrycat wrote, "What works in Ninjutsu, will not necessarily (or not AT ALL) work in other Martial Arts divisions."  I disagree with that assessment.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



When I answered your comment, my comment was in your quote box, nothing there now though. Very confusing indeed. the site has been a bit weird recently.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> When I answered your comment, my comment was in your quote box, nothing there now though. Very confusing indeed. the site has been a bit weird recently.


You know, I thought I had imagined that, Tez. But I'm fairly certain that when I first read his comment, the quote said "Tez3". Weird, indeed.


----------



## Tarrycat

gpseymour said:


> To your last comment - I'm not sure if that was a response to something in particular. I often mention the art I teach/train in, because it provides context to folks who are familiar with the type of art.
> 
> Another thought - boxing benefits from relaxation, too. Someone too tense (or, perhaps more accurately, incorrectly tense) in boxing will feel the punches more, deliver less power, and move more slowly. Learning to use relaxation and tension properly is a common theme across martial arts. Most people have some "natural" incorrect tension - we unlearn it (it's actually a learned tension) over time.



I think ALL of my tension is incorrect, hence it stems from stress & anxiety, which I mentioned in my other response to someone else. It's something I'm working on...slowly... 

You mentioned in one of your replies, some Judo & Aikido techniques. Is that what you do? If you did comment about your art, I must have missed it somehow. 

Trying to keep up with all of the comments here via mobile is a difficult job!


----------



## Tez3

Tarrycat said:


> I think ALL of my tension is incorrect, hence it stems from stress & anxiety, which I mentioned in my other response to someone else. It's something I'm working on...slowly...
> 
> You mentioned in one of your replies, some Judo & Aikido techniques. Is that what you do? If you did comment about your art, I must have missed it somehow.
> 
> Trying to keep up with all of the comments here via mobile is a difficult job!



Have you tried taking a Yoga class? Perhaps Tai Chi? We have a few people who could advise which type of Tai Chi would be beneficial for tension.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Tarrycat said:


> I think ALL of my tension is incorrect, hence it stems from stress & anxiety, which I mentioned in my other response to someone else. It's something I'm working on...slowly...
> 
> You mentioned in one of your replies, some Judo & Aikido techniques. Is that what you do? If you did comment about your art, I must have missed it somehow.
> 
> Trying to keep up with all of the comments here via mobile is a difficult job!


----------



## Tarrycat

Tez3 said:


> Have you tried taking a Yoga class? Perhaps Tai Chi? We have a few people who could advise which type of Tai Chi would be beneficial for tension.



Actually, I haven't hey... I'm so tense that I'm doubting it would work, but I'm always willing to try new things. Is Tai Chi more effective than Yoga? Or do they deliver similar results?


----------



## Buka

Tarrycat said:


> As they say here in broken Zulu: "EISH!"
> 
> Now I'm confused about the messages...
> 
> I'm very curious why you may disagree? Perhaps I can learn a bit more from your input. Have you tried some Ninjutsu in your art? If so, which kata did you like most & why?



Tarrycat, where in S.A are you? Just curious.


----------



## Tarrycat

Xue Sheng said:


>



Ahhhh, thanks so much. I'll go browse for this at some book stores. If they don't have it, eBay should do the trick. I really appreciate it!


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> I don't care if it's listed under a seperate name, it is a similiar technique that he completey disregards and claims that fingers must always be bent. Just like he claims that the rear leg MUST be pointing 25 degrees in the L-stance which I can refute in 10 seconds. Yet he insists on correcting me each time....





Tarrycat said:


> Actually, I haven't hey... I'm so tense that I'm doubting it would work, but I'm always willing to try new things. Is Tai Chi more effective than Yoga? Or do they deliver similar results?



Not sure to be honest but this is a good place to ask for opinions. 
@Xue Sheng any ideas for getting rid of tension, would Tai chi be good? No rude suggestions lol, I already thought of that but thought I'd better not say!


----------



## Xue Sheng

Tarrycat said:


> Ahhhh, thanks so much. I'll go browse for this at some book stores. If they don't have it, eBay should do the trick. I really appreciate it!



Finding the still point - Amazon


----------



## Tarrycat

Buka said:


> Tarrycat, where in S.A are you? Just curious.



Gauteng region...   - beautiful country, but unfortunately very, very, VERY corrupted. I know all countries are, but I think ours take the cake. If I decide to immigrate, I will either move to the States, or Japan.

One thing I'm concerned about the States, is that a lot of people there live to work, they don't work to live... They work looooong hours (which I admire), but I need time for my Martial Arts & my horse riding too. I need balance in my life & I'm scared that I won't be able to achieve that in the States. 

I don't know how the pace is in Japan? If it's just as bad, then I would consider Australia, but I've heard that they aren't very fond of the South Africans...

Europe is a good fit too, as their working hours are very similar to ours.


----------



## Tarrycat

Xue Sheng said:


> Finding the still point - Amazon



Thank you for your effort.  x


----------



## Xue Sheng

Tez3 said:


> @Xue Sheng any ideas for getting rid of tension, would Tai chi be good? No rude suggestions lol, I already thought of that but thought I'd better not say!



Virtually any taijiquan would do if trained correctly but it seem that Cheng Manching style or the William CC Chen variation tend to focus more on relaxation. I found the William CC Chen form very relaxing actually. But Traditional Yang, Traditional Sun, Beijing 24 would all work if trained properly. There are also Qigong forms that would works as well and simply standing like the do in Yiquan would help as well. But the standing forms can take time to get through all the monkey mind business before you actually get to the relaxing internally focused bits...same with Zen based mediation to by the way


----------



## Tarrycat

Tez3 said:


> Not sure to be honest but this is a good place to ask for opinions.
> @Xue Sheng any ideas for getting rid of tension, would Tai chi be good? No rude suggestions lol, I already thought of that but thought I'd better not say!



Thanks so much! I'll have a look & ask for suggestions.  x


----------



## Yamabushii

Tony Dismukes said:


> I wonder if your Genbukan friend studies under an instructor who started out under Steve Hayes's organization before switching to the Genbukan. I've never heard of the godai theory being part of the Genbukan curriculum. If @Yamabushii is still hanging around the forums, perhaps he can fill us in.



Hi,

Thank you for the tag. Unfortunately I'm not very familiar with Stephen Hayes' teachings about the godai. However, in the base Genbukan curriculum for the kyu levels, the only mentions of anything related to the elements are in the introductory rank, and even those are just a part of the rei (bows). The actual teachings about anything "godai" related would be mostly kuden from teachers or a part of Amatsu Tatara which is essentially the more spiritual side of Ninpo. 

Not sure if this answered your question at all.


----------



## Buka

Tarrycat said:


> Gauteng region...   - beautiful country, but unfortunately very, very, VERY corrupted. I know all countries are, but I think ours take the cake. If I decide to immigrate, I will either move to the States, or Japan.
> 
> One thing I'm concerned about the States, is that a lot of people there live to work, they don't work to live... They work looooong hours (which I admire), but I need time for my Martial Arts & my horse riding too. I need balance in my life & I'm scared that I won't be able to achieve that in the States.
> 
> I don't know how the pace is in Japan? If it's just as bad, then I would consider Australia, but I've heard that they aren't very fond of the South Africans...
> 
> Europe is a good fit too, as their working hours are very similar to ours.



I spent some time in old Transvaal. Had a lot of fun running around Jburg and Pretoria, met some nice people.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Yamabushii said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for the tag. Unfortunately I'm not very familiar with Stephen Hayes' teachings about the godai. However, in the base Genbukan curriculum for the kyu levels, the only mentions of anything related to the elements are in the introductory rank, and even those are just a part of the rei (bows). The actual teachings about anything "godai" related would be mostly kuden from teachers or a part of Amatsu Tatara which is essentially the more spiritual side of Ninpo.
> 
> Not sure if this answered your question at all.


That does sort of answer the question. If you read TerryCat's original comment that we were responding to, she talks about each kata requiring a certain sort of elemental energy (water, fire, earth, air, void). It doesn't sound like that is part of your standard curriculum.


----------



## drop bear

Tarrycat said:


> Actually, I haven't hey... I'm so tense that I'm doubting it would work, but I'm always willing to try new things. Is Tai Chi more effective than Yoga? Or do they deliver similar results?



Do MMA.

This is jits. But similar concept.






MMA for PTSD.

MMA group helps veterans cope with PTSD - CNN Video


----------



## Ironbear24

Tarrycat said:


> Who are you talking to on here if I may ask?



To the one who started the thread.


----------



## Yamabushii

Tony Dismukes said:


> That does sort of answer the question. If you read TerryCat's original comment that we were responding to, she talks about each kata requiring a certain sort of elemental energy (water, fire, earth, air, void). It doesn't sound like that is part of your standard curriculum.



By "standard curriculum", are you referring to our base curriculum for non-black belt ranks? By Genbukan standards, that would be the base curriculum. Once you achieve shodan/black belt in Ninpo, it's similar to graduating high school. You're then off to university and you select a major. In the Genbukan, this can be continuing to grade up in Ninpo, or begin formally ranking up in Jujutsu, Koryu Karate, Chugoku Kenpo, Bikenjutsu, Bojutsu, Naginatajutsu, or any ryu ha such as Kukishinden Happo Bikenjutsu, Koto Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Gikan Ryu, etc. So ultimately, there is really only one "standard curriculum" which is your white belt (10th kyu) to 3rd stripe brown belt (1st kyu). Under that context, the kata you learn from 10th-1st kyu require no such thing.

Beyond 1st kyu (e.g. shodan and up), that may change. While I am unaware of any formal requirement (except possibly in Amatsu Tatara) to associate elemental energy with kata, I do know that there is kuden (verbal transmission) associated with many kata. So while I would avoid saying it's a requirement, I would also say that by understanding the elements and being able to attribute them to kata, they can improve your techniques.

Example: You are doing a technique called "suisha". This means "water wheel". The root element in this technique is water. Your opponent attacks you and you receive that energy then redirect it back, ultimately throwing them backwards in a manner where you almost end up looking like a water wheel. Or maybe you are assuming a kamae (a.k.a. posture) which is very strong and defensive; this would be a kamae describing the earth. Wind can be attributed to quickness and evasiveness while fire can be attributed to directness and aggression (for the lack of a better word). Ultimately, the 5th being "void" (or "heaven") is being able to culminate all 4 together.

From a more non-physical perspective - if someone is angry with you (fire), you should avoid displaying anger back toward them because, well, obviously you can't fight fire with fire. It would be better to remain calm and redirect their energy into something more positive. This would be assuming the role of water.

Granted, the far majority of classes in Genbukan Ninpo won't entail any discussions such as these. What I explained is a VERY rough and high level overview. There are very, very deep spiritual meanings behind this stuff and isn't taught to most people. Even then, that information probably wouldn't be shared with the public.

Apologies for the long winded answer. Wanted to try my best to answer based on my current knowledge.


----------



## Yamabushii

For the record, I just want to state that I am not implying Ninpo-ka are like Captain Planet. I went back and read some earlier posts. You cannot summon energy like some mystical haduken. It's something you can feel and use to change your understanding of people and situations, or even help you meditate, but it's not a super power.


----------



## jobo

Yamabushii said:


> For the record, I just want to state that I am not implying Ninpo-ka are like Captain Planet. I went back and read some earlier posts. You cannot summon energy like some mystical haduken. It's something you can feel and use to change your understanding of people and situations, or even help you meditate, but it's not a super power.


well yes and no, super power is a bit far, but most of us have strengh potential two to three times what we can commonly summon 
realising that extra strengh is largely down to control of the cns, turning that,strength into power is also down to cns control, if someone is doing that by visualising themselfs, as a,tiger or a forest fire, i wouldn't be too dismisive of it


----------



## TMA17

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an excellent fighter in a relatively short amount of time.
> 
> When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> PS
> 
> I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."




Depends on the individual.  Style/art is secondary.  Some people are just not as naturally athletic and therefore it won't matter how long they train in any art.  They would still likely lose to more athletic individual with little to no training.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

For some MA "ability" development, there is no short cut.

One day I was very proud to tell my teacher that I had spent 3 years in "head lock" training. My teacher then said that he had spent 10 years in that training. I kept my mouth shut after that.


----------



## Martial D

After re-reading this, it occured to me its the question that's lacking.

"How long should it take to learn a martial art"

This begs the question, when have you learned it? Learned is a past tense word, implying completion. I haven't learned, I'm learning, always learning.

So I guess my answer is, a lifetime, or until you shut your mind. Whatever comes first.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tez3 said:


> But as we've seen it's not in your art is it. It's in what *you* study but as we've been told it's not in the art itself.


I'm still reading through it, so this may have been addressed, but I would disagree with it. If she studies a specific art (in this case ninjutsu), and in her study they learn something specific, that something is now in her art. It may not be a core tenet of that art, so another school/dojo may not focus on it or teach it, but simply by her learning it as part of the art, it becomes part of that art.

That's also where a split could come into play though...if I teach the five animals in shaolin kempo, and someone comes along in another dojo, and teaches a sixth animal (which would be a core tenet), I wouldn't consider that part of my art. But they may consider it part of theirs, and to me that would mean we practice two separate arts, even if they share the same name.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

lklawson said:


> I do.  I also think that you're better than a lot of people.  I think that Tarrycat is probably "better than" a lot of people.  I think that most of the posters here on MT are "better" than a lot of people.
> 
> Did I tell you about when I got a Jury Summons for a case of a guy accused of raping a mentally handicapped girl?  Yeah, I *DEFINITELY* think you, and probably everyone else here, is "better" than that!  It might be a low bar, so to speak, but it is "better."
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Was he convicted? If he didn't do it and was just accused, I wouldn't necessarily know if any of us are better than him.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

lklawson said:


> Tensing up is bad in boxing too, unless you just happen to like telegraphing to your sparring partner.
> 
> Tensing in lifting is bad too.  Off hand, the only exercise I can think of in which "tensing up" is not a bad thing would be Charles Atlas' "Dynamic Tension" system and its derivatives.  Pretty much everything else, it becomes a hindrance.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Even with dynamic tension, it's not that type of tensing. It's a very purposeful thing, where you are keeping your body at an extreme, not tensing up without control over it.


----------



## KenpoMaster805

Kata is good for everybody its an excercise thats we used agains imaginary opponent 

But the thing is if you wana fight you can fight right away but if you wana fight the professional way it would take years and months to perfect it


----------



## Tarrycat

Lol! "Terry" sounds like a dude's name... 

Thank you for the reply.  

The only reason we use the Godai, is because when we do kata, let's say I do a kata that is flowing (usually in hira - a stance where my arms are open to the sides & my feet further apart - you usually turn very lightly with the momentum of it); we would then associate that with "wind" - just so that we know in our minds that it's a light movement.

Yes, I agree, it is the spiritual side of Ninjutsu. I will post videos of all of the kata for you guys, so that you can understand it better, if you want.

Perhaps we do follow some of Hayes' principles, I really don't know. I will ask my teacher about it tomorrow, & then let everyone know. 

I do know that we're an organisation on our own, but I think we still train under the Bujinkan & its curriculum. Why we're a separate organisation, is because my teacher wanted to avoid politics - he said the belt system in his previous school was very easily obtainable, people who shouldn't have graded, did. 

At the same time he likes Tanemura, because he says that Tanemura was willing to spread the art, which keeps the art contained. Hatsumi, on the other hand, didn't want foreigners to know about the art. I'm not sure how they go about it today though, as I see Hatsumi training with foreigners. Perhaps he's become a bit more open to the idea... 

I appreciate everyone's efforts. Thanks a million!  x


----------



## Tarrycat

kempodisciple said:


> Even with dynamic tension, it's not that type of tensing. It's a very purposeful thing, where you are keeping your body at an extreme, not tensing up without control over it.



Ohhhh, I see. That's quite interesting. 

May I ask which type of kata you do with dynamic tensing & why you tense up (given that it's controlled)?


----------



## Tarrycat

Yamabushii said:


> For the record, I just want to state that I am not implying Ninpo-ka are like Captain Planet. I went back and read some earlier posts. You cannot summon energy like some mystical haduken. It's something you can feel and use to change your understanding of people and situations, or even help you meditate, but it's not a super power.



Yes, we don't view it as some kind of a super power. It's the spiritual aspect of it. 

If you read on, I said that we will associate the godai with the kata, to give us an idea or just to help us implement the kata (if you read what I said about the hira no kamae). 

There is no magic related to it. It just helps with understanding the kata better.


----------



## Tarrycat

Yamabushii said:


> By "standard curriculum", are you referring to our base curriculum for non-black belt ranks? By Genbukan standards, that would be the base curriculum. Once you achieve shodan/black belt in Ninpo, it's similar to graduating high school. You're then off to university and you select a major. In the Genbukan, this can be continuing to grade up in Ninpo, or begin formally ranking up in Jujutsu, Koryu Karate, Chugoku Kenpo, Bikenjutsu, Bojutsu, Naginatajutsu, or any ryu ha such as Kukishinden Happo Bikenjutsu, Koto Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Gikan Ryu, etc. So ultimately, there is really only one "standard curriculum" which is your white belt (10th kyu) to 3rd stripe brown belt (1st kyu). Under that context, the kata you learn from 10th-1st kyu require no such thing.
> 
> Beyond 1st kyu (e.g. shodan and up), that may change. While I am unaware of any formal requirement (except possibly in Amatsu Tatara) to associate elemental energy with kata, I do know that there is kuden (verbal transmission) associated with many kata. So while I would avoid saying it's a requirement, I would also say that by understanding the elements and being able to attribute them to kata, they can improve your techniques.
> 
> Example: You are doing a technique called "suisha". This means "water wheel". The root element in this technique is water. Your opponent attacks you and you receive that energy then redirect it back, ultimately throwing them backwards in a manner where you almost end up looking like a water wheel. Or maybe you are assuming a kamae (a.k.a. posture) which is very strong and defensive; this would be a kamae describing the earth. Wind can be attributed to quickness and evasiveness while fire can be attributed to directness and aggression (for the lack of a better word). Ultimately, the 5th being "void" (or "heaven") is being able to culminate all 4 together.
> 
> From a more non-physical perspective - if someone is angry with you (fire), you should avoid displaying anger back toward them because, well, obviously you can't fight fire with fire. It would be better to remain calm and redirect their energy into something more positive. This would be assuming the role of water.
> 
> Granted, the far majority of classes in Genbukan Ninpo won't entail any discussions such as these. What I explained is a VERY rough and high level overview. There are very, very deep spiritual meanings behind this stuff and isn't taught to most people. Even then, that information probably wouldn't be shared with the public.
> 
> Apologies for the long winded answer. Wanted to try my best to answer based on my current knowledge.



YES YES YES!!! Exactly! THANK YOU! You just explained it better than I did. That's what I've been meaning to say ALL ALONG. . It's sometimes difficult for people to understand these concepts, it's not magic, it's just the feeling of it.


----------



## Tarrycat

Tony Dismukes said:


> That does sort of answer the question. If you read TerryCat's original comment that we were responding to, she talks about each kata requiring a certain sort of elemental energy (water, fire, earth, air, void). It doesn't sound like that is part of your standard curriculum.



I replied to you, but it seems like your "quote" went missing once I posted it. 

It's the long comment without a quote.


----------



## Tez3

Tarrycat said:


> Lol! "Terry" sounds like a dude's name...



Terry is also short for Theresa.



Tarrycat said:


> May I ask which type of kata you do with dynamic tensing & why you tense up (given that it's controlled)?










Tarrycat said:


> I replied to you, but it seems like your "quote" went missing once I posted it.



The site is doing some odd things recently.


----------



## Tarrycat

OHHH! I've seen this before, I just didn't exactly know what it was. He's very good at controlling the tension. Does it take a while to perfect it? Is it difficult?


----------



## Tarrycat

Tez3 said:


> Terry is also short for Theresa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The site is doing some odd things recently.



Those karate girls are in perfect synchronization! It's so beautiful! I love the kata!


----------



## Tez3

Tarrycat said:


> Those karate girls are in perfect synchronization! It's so beautiful! I love the kata!



I didn't see any girls? Just Suzuki Sensei doing Seishan.

I love kata but I also love kata Bunkai, the applications of it. The Basics of Bunkai: Part 1 | Iain Abernethy


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tarrycat said:


> Ohhhh, I see. That's quite interesting.
> 
> May I ask which type of kata you do with dynamic tensing & why you tense up (given that it's controlled)?


I can't see the video that Tez posted, as my work computer doesn't allow video, so it might explain the answer to this already.

I've been taught to do it for a couple of kata. However, just about any kata could use dynamic tension, and it can be used outside of kata; it's really just a way to move your muscles.

The way that it works is essentially your body is providing it's own resistance. The easiest way to experiment with it, IMO: Imagine that there is an invisible wall in front of you. The only way to move that wall is by punching it (more pushing than a punch), but the wall does not want to give. So you have to use every ounce of energy you have to push that wall away, while at the same time you are the wall that is holding you back. The other way I've heard it described is there is a giant rubber band on "x-limb". You are trying to stretch that band to it's limit, to the point where it snaps (your hand/leg/whatever is fully out).

It's purpose/why you tense up is a combination thing to me, the first is it's purpose which was muscle building. By having so much resistance coming from your own body, it forces your muscle to work harder than if you just do a kata without dynamic tension. The second purpose for me is that it's almost like meditation. I am so concentrated on my body, and working the weird tension it causes in my body, that I forget about whatever else is going on, and just lose myself in the concentration.

Hopefully that made sense. It's an odd concept to me to explain, and it's still pretty early over here.


----------



## lklawson

Tarrycat said:


> As they say here in broken Zulu: "EISH!"
> 
> Now I'm confused about the messages...
> 
> I'm very curious why you may disagree? Perhaps I can learn a bit more from your input. Have you tried some Ninjutsu in your art? If so, which kata did you like most & why?


I'll try to be more clear.

Once you get below the superficial differences of skin "color" every human being on the planet is pretty much the same.  They all have the same design.  The same bone structure, muscle structure, nervous system, circulatory system, etc.  They are all damaged ("broken") in the same ways.  Techniques performed to one of them will generally affect every other one more or less the same.  A broken shin-bone is a broken shin-bone is a broken-shin bone.  A torn ACL is a torn ACL is a torn ACL.  Same with a concussion, a hyper-extended joint, a damaged muscle, or a severed artery.

We all are damaged in more-or-less the exact same way because we all have the same basic physical design.

Because we are all damaged pretty much the same way by any given "technique" then any given person ("martial artist") can use a given technique to achieve those results.  It doesn't matter if the martial artist is a "Ninjutsuka," a boxer, an Aikidoka, a Collegiate Wrestler, or a Sabre fencer.  

"A punch is just a punch" and "a kick is just a kick".  Same with throws and joint locks.

Now, again, if you want to argue that certain specific techniques or ranges of techniques "seem to fit in" better with the strategies and tactics or training methodologies of a particular martial art, have at it.  I used to believe that and, superficially anyway, there is some merit to that position.  Some hypothetical person might want to defend the position that, "my hard style striking art doesn't really fit with 'soft' style circular movements and grappling."  OK, sure.  But the longer I've been around, the more I see people training very effectively including those concepts.

So when you write, "What works in Ninjutsu, will not necessarily (or not AT ALL) work in other Martial Arts divisions" I say horse dookie.  If it works in Ninjutsu, then it "works" everywhere and, conversely, if it "works" in other martial arts then it will jolly-well work for a Ninjutsuka.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Tez3 said:


> When I answered your comment, my comment was in your quote box, nothing there now though. Very confusing indeed. the site has been a bit weird recently.


I've been seeing some odd double posts and whatnot also and quote tags gone arwry.  Strange.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

jobo said:


> most of us have strengh potential two to three times what we can commonly summon


If you don't mind the very real possibility of damaging your ligaments and joints.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Tez3 said:


> I didn't see any girls? Just Suzuki Sensei doing Seishan.


The vid Tarrycat is referring to follows after the one you posted as a "next" or "suggested" by youtube.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## jobo

lklawson said:


> If you don't mind the very real possibility of damaging your ligaments and joints.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


ligaments and joints pack up more through lack of use, it is possible to get the body so strong that it can literally rip its self apart, but it takes years and a lot of steroids, learning to use the strengh god gave you is in the design capabilities of the body excluding silly lifts that have the mechanic tension all wrong, being able to focus your power to say push someone over isn't going to wreck anything


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tarrycat said:


> I think ALL of my tension is incorrect, hence it stems from stress & anxiety, which I mentioned in my other response to someone else. It's something I'm working on...slowly...
> 
> You mentioned in one of your replies, some Judo & Aikido techniques. Is that what you do? If you did comment about your art, I must have missed it somehow.
> 
> Trying to keep up with all of the comments here via mobile is a difficult job!


My primary art is Nihon Goshin Aikido, which is primarily derived from Daito-ryu Jujutsu/Aikijujutsu, with heavy influence from Judo and Shotokan Karatedo. I also have training in Karate and Judo, Ueshiba's Aikido, and a FMA/Jujutsu hybrid (which was mostly FMA, with JJ techniques slipped in where they fit seamlessly), and some miscellaneous cross-training.


----------



## lklawson

jobo said:


> ligaments and joints pack up more through lack of use, it is possible to get the body so strong that it can literally rip its self apart, but it takes years and a lot of steroids,


And adrenaline dump ("Fight or Flight") can have the same effect.  It can allow the body to engage muscle fibers which are usually in a "safety lockout-tagout." I guess that the ability to use the extra strength in a life-or-death situation is more valuable for survival than the possibility of ripping your muscle from the ligament or the ligament from the joint.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## jobo

lklawson said:


> And adrenaline dump ("Fight or Flight") can have the same effect.  It can allow the body to engage muscle fibers which are usually in a "safety lockout-tagout." I guess that the ability to use the extra strength in a life-or-death situation is more valuable for survival than the possibility of ripping your muscle from the ligament or the ligament from the joint.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


yes it can increase performance but not in that way, the safety cut out your referring to is in the tendons, adrenal doesn't over ride them, nor can it instantly increase the csa of fast twitch fibres , nor improve the nural connection with the muscle fibres. It does pump the muscle full of blood and give you an improved/ instant energy source. But if you are weak, you are still weak even with flight or flight, just,a little less,weak


----------



## lklawson

jobo said:


> But if you are weak, you are still weak even with flight or flight, just,a little less,weak


Of course.  No disagreement.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Chris Parker

This, uh... won't be short. Sorry, guys...



Tarrycat said:


> Funny that it originated from Steven K. Hayes, when it is taught by Shoto Tanemura in his Genbukan community as well.



Actually, no, it's not. I'll cover this more as we go... as well as a few other pertinent factors for your group, and your stated intents...



Tarrycat said:


> They use the same principles. My friend from the States uses the same principles & he's a Genbukan student.



There really isn't anything like the way you've described things taught in the Genbukan. Yamabushii has confirmed this (we'll get to that later), and I have also confirmed this with a number of my Genbukan and ex-Genbukan friends... including a couple of Dojo-cho's. Each said "well, I don't know what the level of experience this members friend is, but...." followed by repudiation of the idea outright. The closest I got to confirming your ideas was a method of explaining the tactical applications of the kamae to beginners. To quote one of my friends "It's not something I've ever seen, or I've heard Tanemura soke refer to at any time."



Tarrycat said:


> The elements help you to understand which type of energy to apply, although it cannot really be put into words. The energies are far too advanced to be able to describe it.



In the greater "ninjutsu" world, that simple idea (what type of energy to apply) simply does not exist. The only place that deals with that is Toshindo, Stephen Hayes' group... and even there, it's less about "types of energy to apply", and more simply a way to categorise (tactically) different waza and methodologies.



Tarrycat said:


> I will have a talk with my Sensei to enlighten myself more.
> 
> Thank you for the input.



Sure.



Tarrycat said:


> No, I disagree to an EXTENT with your opinion; but that doesn't make it wrong. It's just that mine differs.



Fair enough.



Tarrycat said:


> My Sensei has been doing Ninjutsu for 30 years now & he can't even fully explain the energies. He can describe it the way you have, but that's about it. When he DEMONSTRATES it, THEN only are the students able to fully grasp it - whether they are advanced or not. The only difference between advanced students & beginners, is that advanced students, over the years of training, can apply the energy more effortlessly. My Sensei says it takes a while, for some it takes years to perfect the energy used in Ninjutsu.



So... your teacher has been doing this for three decades, and can't explain it? Okay. I will repeat, though, that the idea of "applying energies" as described here is not a part of the teachings of any of the schools (ryu) in any of the ninjutsu organisations... it can be a way to understand a particular methodology, but I wouldn't take it to the level of there being different "energies"... as that actually works counter to the arts themselves.



Tarrycat said:


> You ARE right in saying that once you make up words, it can entirely miss the purpose of the technique, or be a bit misleading - in some cases, yes. However, when my Sensei describes it to me like that, MY brain can understand it better, mysticism or not. I don't think like everyone else does; so when I AM able to fully grasp it in such a way, that's all that matters to me. It doesn't matter to me what YOU think or the next person. In fact, how I learn & how I am taught, will NOT be the same for every other person, AS LONG AS I AM improving & progressing in my art.



Okay, and, as said, if this is the way it's taught in your dojo, and it works for you and your guys, great. The point is that that is not an accurate description of ninjutsu and it's teaching concepts and ideas... just the way your dojo does things.



Tarrycat said:


> Nothing though, helps as much as demonstration - I have noticed that when my Sensei demonstrates, everyone has an "ah-ha!" moment. Even after he demonstrates, they have the tendency to use some strength in their techniques, & then the technique FAILS; why? Because they've approached it using the wrong energy.



Proper mechanics are required to perform the waza without "muscle"... not this "adapt your energy into water/earth/fire/wind" idea.



Tarrycat said:


> In my opinion, NINJUTSU cannot be put into words. The logic of it, YES. The spiritual side? To an EXTENT, but NEVER 100%.



This isn't even anything to do with the spiritual side of the teachings, you understand.



Tony Dismukes said:


> In fairness, we're not _her_ sensei, no matter how much experience we have.



Agreed.



Tarrycat said:


> I like your mindset, you seem like a humble person, which I like. You're right, nobody here is my teacher in person. But I can ALWAYS do with VIRTUAL Sensei's.



Even there, I would advise caution... you haven't vetted us, and honestly, you don't have anywhere near the experience or understanding to do so effectively or accurately.



Tarrycat said:


> Please don't get offended at my opinions, or my views. I do NOT know everything. NOBODY will EVER know everything, life is simply too short.



While this is true, stating this so declaratively with 18 months exposure to the art can be a tricky thing... 



Tarrycat said:


> I'll appreciate it if you could bring in your friend who has trained under Tanemura, because I'd like to keep in contact with him whenever I have any questions or when I want some advice. I AM a beginner, so I have a lot to wrap my grey matter around.



Tony didn't say that Yamabushii has trained under Tanemura sensei in any sense other than indicating he is a member of the Genbukan... but I'm going to highlight something to you now.

If you are a member of any organisation or dojo teaching the Takamatsuden arts that is not with the Genbukan, you cannot train with the Genbukan. Same with the Bujinkan, for that matter. Secondly, by looking to the Genbukan (and it's membership) for answers, you are looking in the wrong place... they teach the arts the way that Tanemura sensei feels is the best, most accurate method for correct transmission of the lines and arts he has amassed... but that does not mean that it is the same as the way they are found in the Bujinkan, or in Toshindo, or in any other off-shoot. So by getting the Genbukan method from a Genbukan member you may very well be getting something that is considered "wrong" in your organisation.



Tarrycat said:


> If he trained DIRECTLY under Tanemura, that would be EVEN BETTER. I would then consider myself damn lucky.
> 
> Thank you.



Why? And I mean that genuinely. What do you think training directly under Tanemura is like? What do you perceive the benefits as being? What do you know of Tanemura's methodology and approach? Or are you just enamoured with the idea of training with a senior Japanese teacher because they're Japanese, and you've heard of him? If you are, that's quite common... but the reality is often quite different to the fantasy.



Tarrycat said:


> I never referred to anything as being "mystic", until someone else brought it up. What I DID do, is mention the Godai. That's what I did. I tried to explain what lies behind all the "mysticism" - if THAT is what people who know absolutely nothing about the art would like to view it as. My purpose was never to make anything seem unrealistic, until someone else gave it that impression.



To be fair, you mentioned the Godai in the sense of "shift(ing) into the different elements"... "Martial Arts are all about energy & connecting to your higher self. It's about the vibration of the atoms in your body"... "transform(ing your) energy"... "shut the elements energy off"... and so on. This is all rather "mystical" phrasing... and the Godai itself wasn't mentioned (by name) until after this (your first post in this thread).



Tarrycat said:


> Read my very first comment on this thread. It AAAAAALLLLLLLL escalated from there.



Oh, I have. Several times.



Tarrycat said:


> If the readers were anything like me, they would read on to avoid any confusion & to educate themselves.
> 
> (So, if you're reading this thread, READ ON, DON'T STOP).



Sure... thing is, and this is meant as gently as possible, the reader will not be accurately informed and educated on the concepts, realities, and teachings of ninjutsu by reading the posts you have made on the subject.



Tarrycat said:


> Well, I'm not a woman that likes to be controlled. Protected, yes. Controlled, no. My father was controlling enough, so it stems from my childhood. I'm a complete rebel now.
> 
> When I think of authority:
> 
> Autocrative leadership style - HITLER was an autocrative leader.
> 
> A MAN of true integrity supports others, he provides, he helps others grow, he doesn't compromise his standards, he doesn't look down upon others... That's what enviable leadership is to me. I don't like people in who think they're better than others.
> 
> Someone who goes out of their way to make another person feel insignificant, IS insecure to me. It's a horrible character trait & a BIG turn off coming from a man.
> 
> Most of you men on here lack empathy. You don't take into consideration that I don't think like you do, & that I think on an emotional level.
> 
> That's the difference between men & women. It's not in my biology to be able to explain in logical terms the things that I feel or experience. I express it through emotion, not on the bloody Internet. In fact, it only frustrates me. You ALL frustrate me.



Okay, I'm not going to go through this whole post, but I will say this:

You have been a member here for (as of this writing) less than three weeks. You are in no position to comment on the personalities of any members here, or whether any aspect is gender related or not. I mean.... "most of you men on here lack empathy"?!? You base that on what, exactly? 



Tarrycat said:


> I was giving an opinion based on the Godai, I mentioned the different energies associated with each "element", or however every other martial art would like to view it as; & then it escalated from there. I never stated facts, only opinions. Some guy said that it was founded by Steven K. Hayes, my one Genbukan friend says the opposite. So, really, I would just like to know the truth, because I don't want to be misinformed if ever someone asks me these questions. I don't want to lead people onto the wrong path.



Hmm... "some guy"? Not sure whether to be amused or insulted by that.... 

Okay, you don't want to lead people to inaccurate thoughts? Then you explain it this way: "In my dojo, here is how we approach kata..." not "in Ninjutsu, all kata are approached this way". One is accurate (potentially), the other definitively is not.



Tarrycat said:


> Exactly what you're describing right now, is how we implement our kata; sometimes explaining to me is not enough, & then my teacher will train with me. By then I can grasp the entire concept. It takes beginners a while to tap into that feeling... I'm naturally a VERY tense person; & when I tense up, it makes it a lot harder for me to do the kata... I'm used to boxing, & lifting weights.



Okay... relaxing is not the same as "applying the energy of water" or similar... it's just, well, relaxing. If you use a particular visualisation for that which involves elemental concepts, cool... but it's not the same as it being part of ninjutsu.



Tarrycat said:


> As they say here in broken Zulu: "EISH!"
> 
> Now I'm confused about the messages...
> 
> I'm very curious why you may disagree? Perhaps I can learn a bit more from your input. Have you tried some Ninjutsu in your art? If so, which kata did you like most & why?



If Kirk had trained in any ninjutsu, it would not have been in any other art he trained in... you train in ninjutsu when you're training in ninjutsu... not when doing other arts...



Yamabushii said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for the tag. Unfortunately I'm not very familiar with Stephen Hayes' teachings about the godai. However, in the base Genbukan curriculum for the kyu levels, the only mentions of anything related to the elements are in the introductory rank, and even those are just a part of the rei (bows). The actual teachings about anything "godai" related would be mostly kuden from teachers or a part of Amatsu Tatara which is essentially the more spiritual side of Ninpo.
> 
> Not sure if this answered your question at all.



Yeah, that matches what other members have told me (with the addition of kamae sometimes being taught by relating them to the tactical expression of the elements). For the record, the Amatsu Tatara doesn't contain anything to do with the Godai as far as I'm aware.

The only other training aspect that I can think of that implies the Godai is the Sanshin no Kata, pretty much found in ally organisations... of course, that's nothing to do with "energies"...



Yamabushii said:


> By "standard curriculum", are you referring to our base curriculum for non-black belt ranks? By Genbukan standards, that would be the base curriculum. Once you achieve shodan/black belt in Ninpo, it's similar to graduating high school. You're then off to university and you select a major. In the Genbukan, this can be continuing to grade up in Ninpo, or begin formally ranking up in Jujutsu, Koryu Karate, Chugoku Kenpo, Bikenjutsu, Bojutsu, Naginatajutsu, or any ryu ha such as Kukishinden Happo Bikenjutsu, Koto Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Gikan Ryu, etc. So ultimately, there is really only one "standard curriculum" which is your white belt (10th kyu) to 3rd stripe brown belt (1st kyu). Under that context, the kata you learn from 10th-1st kyu require no such thing.



Cool. Thanks for that.



Yamabushii said:


> Beyond 1st kyu (e.g. shodan and up), that may change. While I am unaware of any formal requirement (except possibly in Amatsu Tatara) to associate elemental energy with kata, I do know that there is kuden (verbal transmission) associated with many kata. So while I would avoid saying it's a requirement, I would also say that by understanding the elements and being able to attribute them to kata, they can improve your techniques.



Tactical, yes. "Energy", requiring the practitioner to change internally along the ways suggested, is not something I've ever encountered.



Yamabushii said:


> Example: You are doing a technique called "suisha". This means "water wheel". The root element in this technique is water. Your opponent attacks you and you receive that energy then redirect it back, ultimately throwing them backwards in a manner where you almost end up looking like a water wheel.



Hmm.... thinking about Suisha, I don't know that I'd attribute the concept of "water" itself, based purely on the name... the name refers to a common water feature in many Japanese gardens (sometimes thought to be associated with being "zen", due to the white noise effect, but actually derived from Shinto aspects...) where the water pushes down on a paddle to turn a wheel or similar... in Suisha, that's exactly what you do... pressure down on one side to lift up the opposite... as you say, "looking like a water wheel (Suisha)... of course, it's them that resemble the wheel, not yourself, they are thrown to the side, rather than back... 

In terms of there being a "root element", in the sense of something like the Godai (or Gogyo.... we'll look at this in a moment), Kukishin Ryu is, of course, not based or related to Taoism (which is where the elemental concepts are drawn from), but to Shinto, with the Kuki family having their own lineage of Shinto teachings, referred to as Nakatomi Shinto... so I wouldn't look to Taoist concepts as being a large influence there. Same, of course, with the Amatsu Tatara mentioned above, as that is linked with the Kuki methodologies quite strongly, of course.



Yamabushii said:


> Or maybe you are assuming a kamae (a.k.a. posture) which is very strong and defensive; this would be a kamae describing the earth. Wind can be attributed to quickness and evasiveness while fire can be attributed to directness and aggression (for the lack of a better word). Ultimately, the 5th being "void" (or "heaven") is being able to culminate all 4 together.



This idea of relating a kamae to a (tactical) elemental concept is what I got from other members as well... and is the closest I've come across in the Genbukan.



Yamabushii said:


> From a more non-physical perspective - if someone is angry with you (fire), you should avoid displaying anger back toward them because, well, obviously you can't fight fire with fire. It would be better to remain calm and redirect their energy into something more positive. This would be assuming the role of water.



Let's have some fun... 

So far, we've been discussing the Godai... 五大... pretty literally the "big five (universal structural concepts)", which are Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Void (Emptiness). This concept is used to describe the make up of the Universe... in that everything that exists is made up of Earth (solid material), Water (liquid), Fire (energy releasing), Wind (gaseous forms), or Void (vacuum, which can be filled with any of the previous). The order itself is a little interesting, as it gives the order of the appearance for (specifically human) life to exist,, with the opposite order for the occasion of death.

In that, the first aspect to be created is solid material (a sperm and an ovum forming the basis of the cellular structure of the person)... the second is liquid, formed by the placental sac, as well as the creation of internal blood flow and circulatory systems... thirdly, the ability to generate internal heat (fire)... then you are born, giving rise to the addition of wind (breathing)... finally, the awareness of self (consciousness, representing the elemental force of "void"). The opposite occurs with death, with the consciousness (void) departing first... then the body stops breathing (wind).... loses internal body heat (fire)... dries out and desiccates (water)... then decomposes (loss of physical form... earth). 

The Godai is also a part of some Buddhist teachings, with the various aspects being represented by particular shapes (Earth - circle, Water - square, Fire - triangle, Wind - crescent on it's side, Void - teardrop). This symbol is seen often on Buddhist gravestones, for the record, as a representation of the Buddhist teachings of a life cycle (among other aspects). 

While this is sometimes appropriated for tactical concepts, it is largely (again) the interpretation of Stephen Hayes that does so... far more commonly, when the study of tactics is entered into, the concept of the Gogyo is the one encountered.

The Gogyo (五行), which more literally refers to the "five phases", is a tactical expression of the natural elements (as opposed to universal structural concepts), which are listed in a cycle of growth and control/destruction. These elements are Wood - Fire - Earth - Metal - Water in their "growth form, and Wood - Earth - Water - Fire - Metal in their controlling/destructive form. To illustrate this, they are often listed in a circle in the growth list, with a star-shape showing the order for the controlling form.

To put it simply, Wood is used to fuel a Fire... Fire is used to harden Earth (such as clay), as well as creating "earth" in the form of ash... Metal is brought forth from the Earth... Water is used to quench and harden Metal (when making weapons, for instance), as well as metal (tools) being used to collect water.... and Water is used to grow Wood. Conversely, Wood (trees and their roots) break up rocks and the Earth (in this sense, if an opponent is solid and unshakable, work by inserting yourself into their structure to stop them from being able to hold it)... Earth is used to dam Water and stop it's flow (in this sense, if an opponent is flowing around you, remain solid and allow them to break upon your strength)... Water is, of course, used to put out Fire (in this sense, if an opponent is aggressively charging forwards, surround and smother them to dissipate their force)... Fire is used to melt Metal (in this sense, "metal" is tactically the approach of small attacks to break down an opponent... so the response is to overwhelm before they can cut you down)... and Metal is used to chop Wood (in this sense, Wood represents a growing attack designed to weaken strength, so you respond with cutting down each of the attempts to insinuate into your defences).

This tactical approach is found in a number of classical systems, or a variation of it (such as Kashima Shinryu's approach of "a circle, a wedge, and a line")... whereas the Godai is not typically used in such a fashion.



Yamabushii said:


> Granted, the far majority of classes in Genbukan Ninpo won't entail any discussions such as these. What I explained is a VERY rough and high level overview. There are very, very deep spiritual meanings behind this stuff and isn't taught to most people. Even then, that information probably wouldn't be shared with the public.



Cool.



Yamabushii said:


> Apologies for the long winded answer. Wanted to try my best to answer based on my current knowledge.



Ha! You've have seen my posts, yeah? But thanks for the insight.



Tarrycat said:


> The only reason we use the Godai, is because when we do kata, let's say I do a kata that is flowing (usually in hira - a stance where my arms are open to the sides & my feet further apart - you usually turn very lightly with the momentum of it); we would then associate that with "wind" - just so that we know in our minds that it's a light movement.



Which is very much the Stephen Hayes approach... even down to the mis-naming of Hira Ichimonji no Kamae... Hira no Kamae is what he referred to as Shizen no Kamae in most of the ryu-ha... 



Tarrycat said:


> Yes, I agree, it is the spiritual side of Ninjutsu.



It's really not, though. Just FYI.



Tarrycat said:


> I will post videos of all of the kata for you guys, so that you can understand it better, if you want.
> 
> Perhaps we do follow some of Hayes' principles, I really don't know. I will ask my teacher about it tomorrow, & then let everyone know.



Well, you do. You don't need to ask, you've already provided that information... you mentioned on another post that your school's Facebook page is "Ninkai Bujutsu"... which show your school to be the South African branch of Toshindo, which is Stephen Hayes' organisation.



Tarrycat said:


> I do know that we're an organisation on our own, but I think we still train under the Bujinkan & its curriculum.



No, you don't. I'm not going to get into the history too much, but the connection between Stephen Hayes and the Bujinkan is somewhat history these days, and has been for years....



Tarrycat said:


> Why we're a separate organisation, is because my teacher wanted to avoid politics - he said the belt system in his previous school was very easily obtainable, people who shouldn't have graded, did.
> 
> At the same time he likes Tanemura, because he says that Tanemura was willing to spread the art, which keeps the art contained. Hatsumi, on the other hand, didn't want foreigners to know about the art. I'm not sure how they go about it today though, as I see Hatsumi training with foreigners. Perhaps he's become a bit more open to the idea...



Hmm.... no, none of that is how I would describe either of them... while Tanemura has stated that he feels the future of Japanese martial arts is in the West, due to a lack of interest among the Japanese, Hatsumi has very much been wanting to get Westerners involved since before the Genbukan existed... but I do have to re-iterate, by being a member of Toshindo, or even by being a part of an independent group/dojo, you are prohibited from training in the Bujinkan or Genbukan by those organisations' rules. There are a number of reasons for this, and you may find occasional dojo who are willing to overlook it, but as a general rule, you train with your group, not with others. And the Genbukan is more strict with that than any other.



Tarrycat said:


> I appreciate everyone's efforts. Thanks a million!  x



I hope you got something out of this, and it wasn't too overwhelming for you. I'm trying to be gentle here, and hope you can see that... as you said, you're young, and very much a beginner at this, so there's no expectation for you to be accurate in everything you say... of course, recognising those limitation can help a fair amount.

If you are after any confirmation or clarification of anything I've said, of course, simply ask, and I'll do my best to answer.


----------



## Tez3

Am I the only one then who does martial arts just to bash people?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Am I the only one then who does martial arts just to bash people?


Most days, that's not me. Some days, though...


----------



## Tarrycat

Tez3 said:


> I didn't see any girls? Just Suzuki Sensei doing Seishan.
> 
> I love kata but I also love kata Bunkai, the applications of it. The Basics of Bunkai: Part 1 | Iain Abernethy






gpseymour said:


> My primary art is Nihon Goshin Aikido, which is primarily derived from Daito-ryu Jujutsu/Aikijujutsu, with heavy influence from Judo and Shotokan Karatedo. I also have training in Karate and Judo, Ueshiba's Aikido, and a FMA/Jujutsu hybrid (which was mostly FMA, with JJ techniques slipped in where they fit seamlessly), and some miscellaneous cross-training.



I'm very impressed! I love Aikido, my dad wants to take it up. I'm constantly encouraging him to do it, but he's got TOO much damn pride. When he was young, he took up a few Judo classes, & a girl ended up throwing him to the ground. He was so embarrassed, he never went back! 

He's just a street fighter. 

May I ask what your favourite art is, if you have a preference for one of them, that is? 

I've HEARD that if you do a lot of martial arts at once, it can sometimes get confusing, as you're using a different approach every time. Is that true? Or is it subjective?


----------



## Tarrycat

Tez3 said:


> Am I the only one then who does martial arts just to bash people?



Noooope! I doubt it. I think we all love it secretly... . Well, I would like if someone attacked me so I can hurt them, I just won't hurt anyone in the dojo... 

It's difficult to control your emotions. Especially when people tend to push your buttons.

It's obviously not the ONLY reason why I do it, it's more because I'm passionate about it & about the cultures associated with it.

I know people who train to let off some steam, because they hate certain people in their workplace.


----------



## Tez3

Tarrycat said:


> It's difficult to control your emotions. Especially when people tend to push your buttons.



It's something that is easier the older you get, my mother always said 'don't get mad, get even' lol. 



Tarrycat said:


> It's obviously not the ONLY reason why I do it, it's more because I'm passionate about it & about the cultures associated with it.



I can't say I'm passionate about martial arts I do love doing it and enjoy just about everything but the culture is not something I am into. I have my own and care for that more. The history of various martial arts is interesting though but I don't get involved in anything other than the physical aspect.
Talking of culture, I'm off the internet again this weekend. G'mar Hatimah Tovah.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tarrycat said:


> I'm very impressed! I love Aikido, my dad wants to take it up. I'm constantly encouraging him to do it, but he's got TOO much damn pride. When he was young, he took up a few Judo classes, & a girl ended up throwing him to the ground. He was so embarrassed, he never went back!
> 
> He's just a street fighter.
> 
> May I ask what your favourite art is, if you have a preference for one of them, that is?
> 
> I've HEARD that if you do a lot of martial arts at once, it can sometimes get confusing, as you're using a different approach every time. Is that true? Or is it subjective?


I've mostly only trained one or two at a time. I've never found it confusing to train more than one, neither as a beginner (training Shotokan Karate and Kodokan Judo at the same time, starting withing a few weeks of each other), nor after more experience (training/cross-training other arts alongside NGA).

My favorite art is NGA - it's the one that gives me the most range and options, and things to work on when I want to be really nice, too. That said, I don't always train NGA the way many instructors do. My experience with Judo (and cross-training in other arts) left me with a love of up-close, Judo-style grappling. So I bring more of the Judo influence out in NGA than many do. I also use/teach more striking than many NGA instructors. I guess the real answer is I like NGA the way I teach it - that's my favorite.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Tarrycat said:


> I've HEARD that if you do a lot of martial arts at once, it can sometimes get confusing, as you're using a different approach every time. Is that true? Or is it subjective?


After I have killed someone by my punch, on

- Monday, I will stand on his dead body and post "White crane flap wings" to prove I'm a Taiji guy.
- Tuesday, I will stand on his dead body and post "Pi Chuan" to prove I'm a XingYi guy.
- Wednesday, I will walk around his dead body as "Circle walking" to prove I'm a Bagua guy.
- Thursday, I will stand on his dead body and post "Jab on golden rooster stance" to prove I'm a long fist guy.
- Friday, I will stand on his dead body and post "YJKYM" to prove I'm a WC guy.
- Saturday, I will stand on his dead body and post "Left and right double Yin Yang" to prove I'm a preying mantis guy.
- Sunday, I will lift that dead body over my head as "Firemen's carry" to prove I'm a Chinese wrestler.

My simple punch is just a simple punch. Which MA style should deserve that credit depend on the day of the week.


----------



## Yamabushii

Chris Parker said:


> Ha! You've have seen my posts, yeah? But thanks for the insight.



And thank you for sharing your's. I think I read in some other post briefly where you shared your experience. I commend you for your experience and insight.



Chris Parker said:


> Yeah, that matches what other members have told me (with the addition of kamae sometimes being taught by relating them to the tactical expression of the elements). For the record, the Amatsu Tatara doesn't contain anything to do with the Godai as far as I'm aware.[\QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only other training aspect that I can think of that implies the Godai is the Sanshin no Kata, pretty much found in ally organisations... of course, that's nothing to do with "energies"...[\QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tactical, yes. "Energy", requiring the practitioner to change internally along the ways suggested, is not something I've ever encountered.
> 
> Hmm.... thinking about Suisha, I don't know that I'd attribute the concept of "water" itself, based purely on the name... the name refers to a common water feature in many Japanese gardens (sometimes thought to be associated with being "zen", due to the white noise effect, but actually derived from Shinto aspects...) where the water pushes down on a paddle to turn a wheel or similar... in Suisha, that's exactly what you do... pressure down on one side to lift up the opposite... as you say, "looking like a water wheel (Suisha)... of course, it's them that resemble the wheel, not yourself, they are thrown to the side, rather than back...
> 
> In terms of there being a "root element", in the sense of something like the Godai (or Gogyo.... we'll look at this in a moment), Kukishin Ryu is, of course, not based or related to Taoism (which is where the elemental concepts are drawn from), but to Shinto, with the Kuki family having their own lineage of Shinto teachings, referred to as Nakatomi Shinto... so I wouldn't look to Taoist concepts as being a large influence there. Same, of course, with the Amatsu Tatara mentioned above, as that is linked with the Kuki methodologies quite strongly, of course.
> 
> This idea of relating a kamae to a (tactical) elemental concept is what I got from other members as well... and is the closest I've come across in the Genbukan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's have some fun...
> 
> So far, we've been discussing the Godai... 五大... pretty literally the "big five (universal structural concepts)", which are Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Void (Emptiness). This concept is used to describe the make up of the Universe... in that everything that exists is made up of Earth (solid material), Water (liquid), Fire (energy releasing), Wind (gaseous forms), or Void (vacuum, which can be filled with any of the previous). The order itself is a little interesting, as it gives the order of the appearance for (specifically human) life to exist,, with the opposite order for the occasion of death.
> 
> In that, the first aspect to be created is solid material (a sperm and an ovum forming the basis of the cellular structure of the person)... the second is liquid, formed by the placental sac, as well as the creation of internal blood flow and circulatory systems... thirdly, the ability to generate internal heat (fire)... then you are born, giving rise to the addition of wind (breathing)... finally, the awareness of self (consciousness, representing the elemental force of "void"). The opposite occurs with death, with the consciousness (void) departing first... then the body stops breathing (wind).... loses internal body heat (fire)... dries out and desiccates (water)... then decomposes (loss of physical form... earth).
> 
> The Godai is also a part of some Buddhist teachings, with the various aspects being represented by particular shapes (Earth - circle, Water - square, Fire - triangle, Wind - crescent on it's side, Void - teardrop). This symbol is seen often on Buddhist gravestones, for the record, as a representation of the Buddhist teachings of a life cycle (among other aspects).
> 
> While this is sometimes appropriated for tactical concepts, it is largely (again) the interpretation of Stephen Hayes that does so... far more commonly, when the study of tactics is entered into, the concept of the Gogyo is the one encountered.
> 
> The Gogyo (五行), which more literally refers to the "five phases", is a tactical expression of the natural elements (as opposed to universal structural concepts), which are listed in a cycle of growth and control/destruction. These elements are Wood - Fire - Earth - Metal - Water in their "growth form, and Wood - Earth - Water - Fire - Metal in their controlling/destructive form. To illustrate this, they are often listed in a circle in the growth list, with a star-shape showing the order for the controlling form.
> 
> To put it simply, Wood is used to fuel a Fire... Fire is used to harden Earth (such as clay), as well as creating "earth" in the form of ash... Metal is brought forth from the Earth... Water is used to quench and harden Metal (when making weapons, for instance), as well as metal (tools) being used to collect water.... and Water is used to grow Wood. Conversely, Wood (trees and their roots) break up rocks and the Earth (in this sense, if an opponent is solid and unshakable, work by inserting yourself into their structure to stop them from being able to hold it)... Earth is used to dam Water and stop it's flow (in this sense, if an opponent is flowing around you, remain solid and allow them to break upon your strength)... Water is, of course, used to put out Fire (in this sense, if an opponent is aggressively charging forwards, surround and smother them to dissipate their force)... Fire is used to melt Metal (in this sense, "metal" is tactically the approach of small attacks to break down an opponent... so the response is to overwhelm before they can cut you down)... and Metal is used to chop Wood (in this sense, Wood represents a growing attack designed to weaken strength, so you respond with cutting down each of the attempts to insinuate into your defences).
> 
> This tactical approach is found in a number of classical systems, or a variation of it (such as Kashima Shinryu's approach of "a circle, a wedge, and a line")... whereas the Godai is not typically used in such a fashion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My apologies for lumping in and incorrectly pairing some quotes together, but I really just want to give one answer. Thank you for the clarification on the tactical vs godai discussion. I didn't mean to sound as if I was implying one should internally change their energy based on the technique, but as you described, doing it from a tactical perspective. As I mentioned before, I'm not familiar with Stephen Hayes' principles on the godai. I did find your explanation on the Gogyo to be very well explained though.
> 
> Thank you again.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Tarrycat

Chris Parker said:


> This, uh... won't be short. Sorry, guys...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, no, it's not. I'll cover this more as we go... as well as a few other pertinent factors for your group, and your stated intents...
> 
> 
> 
> There really isn't anything like the way you've described things taught in the Genbukan. Yamabushii has confirmed this (we'll get to that later), and I have also confirmed this with a number of my Genbukan and ex-Genbukan friends... including a couple of Dojo-cho's. Each said "well, I don't know what the level of experience this members friend is, but...." followed by repudiation of the idea outright. The closest I got to confirming your ideas was a method of explaining the tactical applications of the kamae to beginners. To quote one of my friends "It's not something I've ever seen, or I've heard Tanemura soke refer to at any time."
> 
> 
> 
> In the greater "ninjutsu" world, that simple idea (what type of energy to apply) simply does not exist. The only place that deals with that is Toshindo, Stephen Hayes' group... and even there, it's less about "types of energy to apply", and more simply a way to categorise (tactically) different waza and methodologies.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure.
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough.
> 
> 
> 
> So... your teacher has been doing this for three decades, and can't explain it? Okay. I will repeat, though, that the idea of "applying energies" as described here is not a part of the teachings of any of the schools (ryu) in any of the ninjutsu organisations... it can be a way to understand a particular methodology, but I wouldn't take it to the level of there being different "energies"... as that actually works counter to the arts themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, and, as said, if this is the way it's taught in your dojo, and it works for you and your guys, great. The point is that that is not an accurate description of ninjutsu and it's teaching concepts and ideas... just the way your dojo does things.
> 
> 
> 
> Proper mechanics are required to perform the waza without "muscle"... not this "adapt your energy into water/earth/fire/wind" idea.
> 
> 
> 
> This isn't even anything to do with the spiritual side of the teachings, you understand.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> 
> 
> Even there, I would advise caution... you haven't vetted us, and honestly, you don't have anywhere near the experience or understanding to do so effectively or accurately.
> 
> 
> 
> While this is true, stating this so declaratively with 18 months exposure to the art can be a tricky thing...
> 
> 
> 
> Tony didn't say that Yamabushii has trained under Tanemura sensei in any sense other than indicating he is a member of the Genbukan... but I'm going to highlight something to you now.
> 
> If you are a member of any organisation or dojo teaching the Takamatsuden arts that is not with the Genbukan, you cannot train with the Genbukan. Same with the Bujinkan, for that matter. Secondly, by looking to the Genbukan (and it's membership) for answers, you are looking in the wrong place... they teach the arts the way that Tanemura sensei feels is the best, most accurate method for correct transmission of the lines and arts he has amassed... but that does not mean that it is the same as the way they are found in the Bujinkan, or in Toshindo, or in any other off-shoot. So by getting the Genbukan method from a Genbukan member you may very well be getting something that is considered "wrong" in your organisation.
> 
> 
> 
> Why? And I mean that genuinely. What do you think training directly under Tanemura is like? What do you perceive the benefits as being? What do you know of Tanemura's methodology and approach? Or are you just enamoured with the idea of training with a senior Japanese teacher because they're Japanese, and you've heard of him? If you are, that's quite common... but the reality is often quite different to the fantasy.
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, you mentioned the Godai in the sense of "shift(ing) into the different elements"... "Martial Arts are all about energy & connecting to your higher self. It's about the vibration of the atoms in your body"... "transform(ing your) energy"... "shut the elements energy off"... and so on. This is all rather "mystical" phrasing... and the Godai itself wasn't mentioned (by name) until after this (your first post in this thread).
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I have. Several times.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure... thing is, and this is meant as gently as possible, the reader will not be accurately informed and educated on the concepts, realities, and teachings of ninjutsu by reading the posts you have made on the subject.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, I'm not going to go through this whole post, but I will say this:
> 
> You have been a member here for (as of this writing) less than three weeks. You are in no position to comment on the personalities of any members here, or whether any aspect is gender related or not. I mean.... "most of you men on here lack empathy"?!? You base that on what, exactly?
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm... "some guy"? Not sure whether to be amused or insulted by that....
> 
> Okay, you don't want to lead people to inaccurate thoughts? Then you explain it this way: "In my dojo, here is how we approach kata..." not "in Ninjutsu, all kata are approached this way". One is accurate (potentially), the other definitively is not.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay... relaxing is not the same as "applying the energy of water" or similar... it's just, well, relaxing. If you use a particular visualisation for that which involves elemental concepts, cool... but it's not the same as it being part of ninjutsu.
> 
> 
> 
> If Kirk had trained in any ninjutsu, it would not have been in any other art he trained in... you train in ninjutsu when you're training in ninjutsu... not when doing other arts...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that matches what other members have told me (with the addition of kamae sometimes being taught by relating them to the tactical expression of the elements). For the record, the Amatsu Tatara doesn't contain anything to do with the Godai as far as I'm aware.
> 
> The only other training aspect that I can think of that implies the Godai is the Sanshin no Kata, pretty much found in ally organisations... of course, that's nothing to do with "energies"...
> 
> 
> 
> Cool. Thanks for that.
> 
> 
> 
> Tactical, yes. "Energy", requiring the practitioner to change internally along the ways suggested, is not something I've ever encountered.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm.... thinking about Suisha, I don't know that I'd attribute the concept of "water" itself, based purely on the name... the name refers to a common water feature in many Japanese gardens (sometimes thought to be associated with being "zen", due to the white noise effect, but actually derived from Shinto aspects...) where the water pushes down on a paddle to turn a wheel or similar... in Suisha, that's exactly what you do... pressure down on one side to lift up the opposite... as you say, "looking like a water wheel (Suisha)... of course, it's them that resemble the wheel, not yourself, they are thrown to the side, rather than back...
> 
> In terms of there being a "root element", in the sense of something like the Godai (or Gogyo.... we'll look at this in a moment), Kukishin Ryu is, of course, not based or related to Taoism (which is where the elemental concepts are drawn from), but to Shinto, with the Kuki family having their own lineage of Shinto teachings, referred to as Nakatomi Shinto... so I wouldn't look to Taoist concepts as being a large influence there. Same, of course, with the Amatsu Tatara mentioned above, as that is linked with the Kuki methodologies quite strongly, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> This idea of relating a kamae to a (tactical) elemental concept is what I got from other members as well... and is the closest I've come across in the Genbukan.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's have some fun...
> 
> So far, we've been discussing the Godai... 五大... pretty literally the "big five (universal structural concepts)", which are Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Void (Emptiness). This concept is used to describe the make up of the Universe... in that everything that exists is made up of Earth (solid material), Water (liquid), Fire (energy releasing), Wind (gaseous forms), or Void (vacuum, which can be filled with any of the previous). The order itself is a little interesting, as it gives the order of the appearance for (specifically human) life to exist,, with the opposite order for the occasion of death.
> 
> In that, the first aspect to be created is solid material (a sperm and an ovum forming the basis of the cellular structure of the person)... the second is liquid, formed by the placental sac, as well as the creation of internal blood flow and circulatory systems... thirdly, the ability to generate internal heat (fire)... then you are born, giving rise to the addition of wind (breathing)... finally, the awareness of self (consciousness, representing the elemental force of "void"). The opposite occurs with death, with the consciousness (void) departing first... then the body stops breathing (wind).... loses internal body heat (fire)... dries out and desiccates (water)... then decomposes (loss of physical form... earth).
> 
> The Godai is also a part of some Buddhist teachings, with the various aspects being represented by particular shapes (Earth - circle, Water - square, Fire - triangle, Wind - crescent on it's side, Void - teardrop). This symbol is seen often on Buddhist gravestones, for the record, as a representation of the Buddhist teachings of a life cycle (among other aspects).
> 
> While this is sometimes appropriated for tactical concepts, it is largely (again) the interpretation of Stephen Hayes that does so... far more commonly, when the study of tactics is entered into, the concept of the Gogyo is the one encountered.
> 
> The Gogyo (五行), which more literally refers to the "five phases", is a tactical expression of the natural elements (as opposed to universal structural concepts), which are listed in a cycle of growth and control/destruction. These elements are Wood - Fire - Earth - Metal - Water in their "growth form, and Wood - Earth - Water - Fire - Metal in their controlling/destructive form. To illustrate this, they are often listed in a circle in the growth list, with a star-shape showing the order for the controlling form.
> 
> To put it simply, Wood is used to fuel a Fire... Fire is used to harden Earth (such as clay), as well as creating "earth" in the form of ash... Metal is brought forth from the Earth... Water is used to quench and harden Metal (when making weapons, for instance), as well as metal (tools) being used to collect water.... and Water is used to grow Wood. Conversely, Wood (trees and their roots) break up rocks and the Earth (in this sense, if an opponent is solid and unshakable, work by inserting yourself into their structure to stop them from being able to hold it)... Earth is used to dam Water and stop it's flow (in this sense, if an opponent is flowing around you, remain solid and allow them to break upon your strength)... Water is, of course, used to put out Fire (in this sense, if an opponent is aggressively charging forwards, surround and smother them to dissipate their force)... Fire is used to melt Metal (in this sense, "metal" is tactically the approach of small attacks to break down an opponent... so the response is to overwhelm before they can cut you down)... and Metal is used to chop Wood (in this sense, Wood represents a growing attack designed to weaken strength, so you respond with cutting down each of the attempts to insinuate into your defences).
> 
> This tactical approach is found in a number of classical systems, or a variation of it (such as Kashima Shinryu's approach of "a circle, a wedge, and a line")... whereas the Godai is not typically used in such a fashion.
> 
> 
> 
> Cool.
> 
> 
> 
> Ha! You've have seen my posts, yeah? But thanks for the insight.
> 
> 
> 
> Which is very much the Stephen Hayes approach... even down to the mis-naming of Hira Ichimonji no Kamae... Hira no Kamae is what he referred to as Shizen no Kamae in most of the ryu-ha...
> 
> 
> 
> It's really not, though. Just FYI.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you do. You don't need to ask, you've already provided that information... you mentioned on another post that your school's Facebook page is "Ninkai Bujutsu"... which show your school to be the South African branch of Toshindo, which is Stephen Hayes' organisation.
> 
> 
> 
> No, you don't. I'm not going to get into the history too much, but the connection between Stephen Hayes and the Bujinkan is somewhat history these days, and has been for years....
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm.... no, none of that is how I would describe either of them... while Tanemura has stated that he feels the future of Japanese martial arts is in the West, due to a lack of interest among the Japanese, Hatsumi has very much been wanting to get Westerners involved since before the Genbukan existed... but I do have to re-iterate, by being a member of Toshindo, or even by being a part of an independent group/dojo, you are prohibited from training in the Bujinkan or Genbukan by those organisations' rules. There are a number of reasons for this, and you may find occasional dojo who are willing to overlook it, but as a general rule, you train with your group, not with others. And the Genbukan is more strict with that than any other.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you got something out of this, and it wasn't too overwhelming for you. I'm trying to be gentle here, and hope you can see that... as you said, you're young, and very much a beginner at this, so there's no expectation for you to be accurate in everything you say... of course, recognising those limitation can help a fair amount.
> 
> If you are after any confirmation or clarification of anything I've said, of course, simply ask, and I'll do my best to answer.


Th


Chris Parker said:


> This, uh... won't be short. Sorry, guys...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, no, it's not. I'll cover this more as we go... as well as a few other pertinent factors for your group, and your stated intents...
> 
> 
> 
> There really isn't anything like the way you've described things taught in the Genbukan. Yamabushii has confirmed this (we'll get to that later), and I have also confirmed this with a number of my Genbukan and ex-Genbukan friends... including a couple of Dojo-cho's. Each said "well, I don't know what the level of experience this members friend is, but...." followed by repudiation of the idea outright. The closest I got to confirming your ideas was a method of explaining the tactical applications of the kamae to beginners. To quote one of my friends "It's not something I've ever seen, or I've heard Tanemura soke refer to at any time."
> 
> 
> 
> In the greater "ninjutsu" world, that simple idea (what type of energy to apply) simply does not exist. The only place that deals with that is Toshindo, Stephen Hayes' group... and even there, it's less about "types of energy to apply", and more simply a way to categorise (tactically) different waza and methodologies.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure.
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough.
> 
> 
> 
> So... your teacher has been doing this for three decades, and can't explain it? Okay. I will repeat, though, that the idea of "applying energies" as described here is not a part of the teachings of any of the schools (ryu) in any of the ninjutsu organisations... it can be a way to understand a particular methodology, but I wouldn't take it to the level of there being different "energies"... as that actually works counter to the arts themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, and, as said, if this is the way it's taught in your dojo, and it works for you and your guys, great. The point is that that is not an accurate description of ninjutsu and it's teaching concepts and ideas... just the way your dojo does things.
> 
> 
> 
> Proper mechanics are required to perform the waza without "muscle"... not this "adapt your energy into water/earth/fire/wind" idea.
> 
> 
> 
> This isn't even anything to do with the spiritual side of the teachings, you understand.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> 
> 
> Even there, I would advise caution... you haven't vetted us, and honestly, you don't have anywhere near the experience or understanding to do so effectively or accurately.
> 
> 
> 
> While this is true, stating this so declaratively with 18 months exposure to the art can be a tricky thing...
> 
> 
> 
> Tony didn't say that Yamabushii has trained under Tanemura sensei in any sense other than indicating he is a member of the Genbukan... but I'm going to highlight something to you now.
> 
> If you are a member of any organisation or dojo teaching the Takamatsuden arts that is not with the Genbukan, you cannot train with the Genbukan. Same with the Bujinkan, for that matter. Secondly, by looking to the Genbukan (and it's membership) for answers, you are looking in the wrong place... they teach the arts the way that Tanemura sensei feels is the best, most accurate method for correct transmission of the lines and arts he has amassed... but that does not mean that it is the same as the way they are found in the Bujinkan, or in Toshindo, or in any other off-shoot. So by getting the Genbukan method from a Genbukan member you may very well be getting something that is considered "wrong" in your organisation.
> 
> 
> 
> Why? And I mean that genuinely. What do you think training directly under Tanemura is like? What do you perceive the benefits as being? What do you know of Tanemura's methodology and approach? Or are you just enamoured with the idea of training with a senior Japanese teacher because they're Japanese, and you've heard of him? If you are, that's quite common... but the reality is often quite different to the fantasy.
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, you mentioned the Godai in the sense of "shift(ing) into the different elements"... "Martial Arts are all about energy & connecting to your higher self. It's about the vibration of the atoms in your body"... "transform(ing your) energy"... "shut the elements energy off"... and so on. This is all rather "mystical" phrasing... and the Godai itself wasn't mentioned (by name) until after this (your first post in this thread).
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I have. Several times.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure... thing is, and this is meant as gently as possible, the reader will not be accurately informed and educated on the concepts, realities, and teachings of ninjutsu by reading the posts you have made on the subject.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, I'm not going to go through this whole post, but I will say this:
> 
> You have been a member here for (as of this writing) less than three weeks. You are in no position to comment on the personalities of any members here, or whether any aspect is gender related or not. I mean.... "most of you men on here lack empathy"?!? You base that on what, exactly?
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm... "some guy"? Not sure whether to be amused or insulted by that....
> 
> Okay, you don't want to lead people to inaccurate thoughts? Then you explain it this way: "In my dojo, here is how we approach kata..." not "in Ninjutsu, all kata are approached this way". One is accurate (potentially), the other definitively is not.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay... relaxing is not the same as "applying the energy of water" or similar... it's just, well, relaxing. If you use a particular visualisation for that which involves elemental concepts, cool... but it's not the same as it being part of ninjutsu.
> 
> 
> 
> If Kirk had trained in any ninjutsu, it would not have been in any other art he trained in... you train in ninjutsu when you're training in ninjutsu... not when doing other arts...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that matches what other members have told me (with the addition of kamae sometimes being taught by relating them to the tactical expression of the elements). For the record, the Amatsu Tatara doesn't contain anything to do with the Godai as far as I'm aware.
> 
> The only other training aspect that I can think of that implies the Godai is the Sanshin no Kata, pretty much found in ally organisations... of course, that's nothing to do with "energies"...
> 
> 
> 
> Cool. Thanks for that.
> 
> 
> 
> Tactical, yes. "Energy", requiring the practitioner to change internally along the ways suggested, is not something I've ever encountered.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm.... thinking about Suisha, I don't know that I'd attribute the concept of "water" itself, based purely on the name... the name refers to a common water feature in many Japanese gardens (sometimes thought to be associated with being "zen", due to the white noise effect, but actually derived from Shinto aspects...) where the water pushes down on a paddle to turn a wheel or similar... in Suisha, that's exactly what you do... pressure down on one side to lift up the opposite... as you say, "looking like a water wheel (Suisha)... of course, it's them that resemble the wheel, not yourself, they are thrown to the side, rather than back...
> 
> In terms of there being a "root element", in the sense of something like the Godai (or Gogyo.... we'll look at this in a moment), Kukishin Ryu is, of course, not based or related to Taoism (which is where the elemental concepts are drawn from), but to Shinto, with the Kuki family having their own lineage of Shinto teachings, referred to as Nakatomi Shinto... so I wouldn't look to Taoist concepts as being a large influence there. Same, of course, with the Amatsu Tatara mentioned above, as that is linked with the Kuki methodologies quite strongly, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> This idea of relating a kamae to a (tactical) elemental concept is what I got from other members as well... and is the closest I've come across in the Genbukan.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's have some fun...
> 
> So far, we've been discussing the Godai... 五大... pretty literally the "big five (universal structural concepts)", which are Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Void (Emptiness). This concept is used to describe the make up of the Universe... in that everything that exists is made up of Earth (solid material), Water (liquid), Fire (energy releasing), Wind (gaseous forms), or Void (vacuum, which can be filled with any of the previous). The order itself is a little interesting, as it gives the order of the appearance for (specifically human) life to exist,, with the opposite order for the occasion of death.
> 
> In that, the first aspect to be created is solid material (a sperm and an ovum forming the basis of the cellular structure of the person)... the second is liquid, formed by the placental sac, as well as the creation of internal blood flow and circulatory systems... thirdly, the ability to generate internal heat (fire)... then you are born, giving rise to the addition of wind (breathing)... finally, the awareness of self (consciousness, representing the elemental force of "void"). The opposite occurs with death, with the consciousness (void) departing first... then the body stops breathing (wind).... loses internal body heat (fire)... dries out and desiccates (water)... then decomposes (loss of physical form... earth).
> 
> The Godai is also a part of some Buddhist teachings, with the various aspects being represented by particular shapes (Earth - circle, Water - square, Fire - triangle, Wind - crescent on it's side, Void - teardrop). This symbol is seen often on Buddhist gravestones, for the record, as a representation of the Buddhist teachings of a life cycle (among other aspects).
> 
> While this is sometimes appropriated for tactical concepts, it is largely (again) the interpretation of Stephen Hayes that does so... far more commonly, when the study of tactics is entered into, the concept of the Gogyo is the one encountered.
> 
> The Gogyo (五行), which more literally refers to the "five phases", is a tactical expression of the natural elements (as opposed to universal structural concepts), which are listed in a cycle of growth and control/destruction. These elements are Wood - Fire - Earth - Metal - Water in their "growth form, and Wood - Earth - Water - Fire - Metal in their controlling/destructive form. To illustrate this, they are often listed in a circle in the growth list, with a star-shape showing the order for the controlling form.
> 
> To put it simply, Wood is used to fuel a Fire... Fire is used to harden Earth (such as clay), as well as creating "earth" in the form of ash... Metal is brought forth from the Earth... Water is used to quench and harden Metal (when making weapons, for instance), as well as metal (tools) being used to collect water.... and Water is used to grow Wood. Conversely, Wood (trees and their roots) break up rocks and the Earth (in this sense, if an opponent is solid and unshakable, work by inserting yourself into their structure to stop them from being able to hold it)... Earth is used to dam Water and stop it's flow (in this sense, if an opponent is flowing around you, remain solid and allow them to break upon your strength)... Water is, of course, used to put out Fire (in this sense, if an opponent is aggressively charging forwards, surround and smother them to dissipate their force)... Fire is used to melt Metal (in this sense, "metal" is tactically the approach of small attacks to break down an opponent... so the response is to overwhelm before they can cut you down)... and Metal is used to chop Wood (in this sense, Wood represents a growing attack designed to weaken strength, so you respond with cutting down each of the attempts to insinuate into your defences).
> 
> This tactical approach is found in a number of classical systems, or a variation of it (such as Kashima Shinryu's approach of "a circle, a wedge, and a line")... whereas the Godai is not typically used in such a fashion.
> 
> 
> 
> Cool.
> 
> 
> 
> Ha! You've have seen my posts, yeah? But thanks for the insight.
> 
> 
> 
> Which is very much the Stephen Hayes approach... even down to the mis-naming of Hira Ichimonji no Kamae... Hira no Kamae is what he referred to as Shizen no Kamae in most of the ryu-ha...
> 
> 
> 
> It's really not, though. Just FYI.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you do. You don't need to ask, you've already provided that information... you mentioned on another post that your school's Facebook page is "Ninkai Bujutsu"... which show your school to be the South African branch of Toshindo, which is Stephen Hayes' organisation.
> 
> 
> 
> No, you don't. I'm not going to get into the history too much, but the connection between Stephen Hayes and the Bujinkan is somewhat history these days, and has been for years....
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm.... no, none of that is how I would describe either of them... while Tanemura has stated that he feels the future of Japanese martial arts is in the West, due to a lack of interest among the Japanese, Hatsumi has very much been wanting to get Westerners involved since before the Genbukan existed... but I do have to re-iterate, by being a member of Toshindo, or even by being a part of an independent group/dojo, you are prohibited from training in the Bujinkan or Genbukan by those organisations' rules. There are a number of reasons for this, and you may find occasional dojo who are willing to overlook it, but as a general rule, you train with your group, not with others. And the Genbukan is more strict with that than any other.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you got something out of this, and it wasn't too overwhelming for you. I'm trying to be gentle here, and hope you can see that... as you said, you're young, and very much a beginner at this, so there's no expectation for you to be accurate in everything you say... of course, recognising those limitation can help a fair amount.
> 
> If you are after any confirmation or clarification of anything I've said, of course, simply ask, and I'll do my best to answer.



Thank you for the time & the effort you've put into your diligent response, Chris. I very much appreciate it & yes, I would gladly turn to you if I need any information, advice, or guidance, as I can see that you are very experienced. I will keep you on my list. I really didn't mean to cause any confusion, or mean to be rude to some people on here. Some comments I feel was a bit overwhelming & I felt like I had to defend myself, naturally. 

I will make a mental note of everything.

I have spoken to some of the students in my class - we do some To-Shin-Do in-between (given the Godai), but we train under the Bujinkan. 

I'm aware that we are not allowed to cross-train, due to the politics involved, & I respect that, but I'm not the type of person to disregard people in my personal life just because they belong to another organisation (I will not cross train, though). I care about the fact that we all share the same passion, & that's just not how my mind or my heart works. To me, there will always be a place for everyone. You never know what the next person may teach you; just like you have taught me now. Your knowledge overflows & that makes you very valuable. I appreciate your gentle approach, as I AM very sensitive. 

I guess you can say that yes, I do think highly of Tanemura & of Hatsumi, because if it weren't for them passing on the art from Takamatsu, we would never have known about it, or be able to do what we love doing. I'm beyond passionate about it & passionate about the Japanese culture. I'm not so sure if the Japanese love us Westerners? I've heard that they frown upon us, but you know what, that doesn't matter. What matters is what I feel. What they've created is what makes me happy in life, so I don't really care. I don't see them as Gods or anything like that, I just respect them. I respect anyone who has put in the effort to be high up or just very knowledgeable. I was raised to be respectful of people like that, I come from a very stern upbringing. 

Thanks again. *


----------



## Tarrycat

Kung Fu Wang said:


> After I have killed someone by my punch, on
> 
> - Monday, I will stand on his dead body and post "White crane flap wings" to prove I'm a Taiji guy.
> - Tuesday, I will stand on his dead body and post "Pi Chuan" to prove I'm a XingYi guy.
> - Wednesday, I will walk around his dead body as "Circle walking" to prove I'm a Bagua guy.
> - Thursday, I will stand on his dead body and post "Jab on golden rooster stance" to prove I'm a long fist guy.
> - Friday, I will stand on his dead body and post "YJKYM" to prove I'm a WC guy.
> - Saturday, I will stand on his dead body and post "Left and right double Yin Yang" to prove I'm a preying mantis guy.
> - Sunday, I will lift that dead body over my head as "Firemen's carry" to prove I'm a Chinese wrestler.
> 
> My simple punch is just a simple punch. Which MA style should deserve that credit depend on the day of the week.



VERY interesting way of putting it, but it makes sense.


----------



## Tarrycat

Tez3 said:


> It's something that is easier the older you get, my mother always said 'don't get mad, get even' lol.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't say I'm passionate about martial arts I do love doing it and enjoy just about everything but the culture is not something I am into. I have my own and care for that more. The history of various martial arts is interesting though but I don't get involved in anything other than the physical aspect.
> Talking of culture, I'm off the internet again this weekend. G'mar Hatimah Tovah.



Well, that makes you a unique individual in my eyes. Not everyone will like the same things in life or be passionate about the same things. What a tedious world it would've been if we all had similar likes, dislikes, & passions! 

Soooo... May I ask what you are passionate about?


----------



## lklawson

Tarrycat said:


> I've HEARD that if you do a lot of martial arts at once, it can sometimes get confusing, as you're using a different approach every time. Is that true? Or is it subjective?


Depends.  Some of them are easier to conceptually understand together than others.  Some of them address areas that the other doesn't typically (such as studying boxing and wrestling together).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Am I the only one then who does martial arts just to bash people?


----------



## drop bear

Tarrycat said:


> I'm very impressed! I love Aikido, my dad wants to take it up. I'm constantly encouraging him to do it, but he's got TOO much damn pride. When he was young, he took up a few Judo classes, & a girl ended up throwing him to the ground. He was so embarrassed, he never went back!
> 
> He's just a street fighter.
> 
> May I ask what your favourite art is, if you have a preference for one of them, that is?
> 
> I've HEARD that if you do a lot of martial arts at once, it can sometimes get confusing, as you're using a different approach every time. Is that true? Or is it subjective?



Yeah look i really hate that approach that you can only do one martial art. I do three or four within my school.

I just dont understand how people can learn 8 different lanuages, 5 different dance disciplines. Shoot different guns. Go to athletics and compete in different jumps or different running styles. paint a picture in different styles. 

Everything else you can get your brain around different nuances of the same concept exept martial arts.

I refuse to believe it is any more complicated or the people doing martial arts are any less capable.


----------



## Encho

Tarrycat said:


> I'm very impressed! I love Aikido, my dad wants to take it up. I'm constantly encouraging him to do it, but he's got TOO much damn pride. When he was young, he took up a few Judo classes, & a girl ended up throwing him to the ground. He was so embarrassed, he never went back!
> 
> He's just a street fighter.
> 
> May I ask what your favourite art is, if you have a preference for one of them, that is?
> 
> I've HEARD that if you do a lot of martial arts at once, it can sometimes get confusing, as you're using a different approach every time. Is that true? Or is it subjective?


Dear Tarry it really is not difficult to do many different arts as each art has its own methods of doing things, You may see in other art similar things. I enjoy doing different arts.


----------



## Chris Parker

Yamabushii said:


> And thank you for sharing your's. I think I read in some other post briefly where you shared your experience. I commend you for your experience and insight.



No problem.



Yamabushii said:


> My apologies for lumping in and incorrectly pairing some quotes together, but I really just want to give one answer. Thank you for the clarification on the tactical vs godai discussion. I didn't mean to sound as if I was implying one should internally change their energy based on the technique, but as you described, doing it from a tactical perspective. As I mentioned before, I'm not familiar with Stephen Hayes' principles on the godai. I did find your explanation on the Gogyo to be very well explained though.
> 
> Thank you again.



Thanks. When it comes to "internally chang(ing) energy", I didn't read that in your answer at all... I was simply attempting to clarify that your description of a tactical application of elemental concepts was not the same as Tarrycat appears to be describing... so all good there!

One thing I didn't mention is that, despite the common English translations, the same "elements" in the Godai and Gogyo aren't necessarily the same.... most notably Earth. In the Godai, "earth" is chi (地), with the intent being more in line with the ground, or the surface of the Earth (as distinct from the Heavens), whereas the Gogyo uses the term Do (土), which has more of a meaning of "the soil/dirt", instead of simply the ground (as a surface). Take that for what it's worth.... 



Tarrycat said:


> Thank you for the time & the effort you've put into your diligent response, Chris. I very much appreciate it & yes, I would gladly turn to you if I need any information, advice, or guidance, as I can see that you are very experienced. I will keep you on my list. I really didn't mean to cause any confusion, or mean to be rude to some people on here. Some comments I feel was a bit overwhelming & I felt like I had to defend myself, naturally.



Yeah, I figured that was likely the case... just remember, this is a text-based format... and tonality and body language can be easily missed and misunderstood... often posts aren't as harsh as they first appear... 



Tarrycat said:


> I will make a mental note of everything.



Cool.



Tarrycat said:


> I have spoken to some of the students in my class - we do some To-Shin-Do in-between (given the Godai), but we train under the Bujinkan.



Hmm... this is not so much the case. You are either a part of the Bujinkan, or you're not. You're either a part of Toshindo, or you're not. And you can't be both.

And when it comes to your school, the Facebook page is full of mentions of Toshindo South Africa, the introductory video (dated August 12th this year) starts with the words "Toshindo South Africa Presents...", mentions Toshindo South Africa at the end, and gives a website address of www.toshindosa.co.za... the school address I found is www.ninkaibujutsu.co.za, which mentions your teacher being awarded a Shodan in "ninjutsu" (no organisation) from a Emanuel Maisel in 1989... which itself raises a few questions, as the only mention I can find outside of this is a mention of him beginning with Roy Ron Shihan of the Genbukan in 1991, and leaving in 1995... followed by a Nidan in Toshindo in 2010 from Stephen Hayes and (your teacher's personal teacher in the US) Brett "Dotoshi" (a Toshindo "warrior name" given to yudansha, for some reason...) Varnum, who attained a Godan in the Bujinkan in 2003 (before the split between Hayes and the Bujinkan), and later a 7th Dan in Toshindo in 2011... making him a Toshindo practitioner and teacher.

In other words, pretty much everything points to your dojo being part of the Toshindo (Stephen Hayes') organisation... as that is where the bulk of your teachers authority comes from (Shodan is not a teaching grade in the Bujinkan or Genbukan, so that conveys no authority there). There is also the distinct possibility, knowing some of South Africa's "ninjutsu" community that Emanuel Maisel, when awarding the Shodan in "ninjutsu" was teaching one of the more fraudulent "Koga-ryu" groups that seem to pop up there semi-regularly, hence no organisation being mentioned... and no mention of Maisel's prior training to the Genbukan, which he began training in after awarding your teacher a Shodan.

None of this is to disparage your teacher, although I will also say, and this is kinda a side note, that there are some rather unusual, or questionable things I find on your website... mostly in terminology and use of Japanese. Your schools name, for instance, is a bit unusual... but before I say anything about it, can you give me a translation/meaning for Ninkai Bujutsu (忍海武術), and tell me what the kanji on the other side of the badge is meant to say (忍法貫)? If you can't, that's okay... honestly, I don't expect you to be able to... but I'd be interested in your teachers answers if he is happy to answer.



Tarrycat said:


> I'm aware that we are not allowed to cross-train, due to the politics involved, & I respect that, but I'm not the type of person to disregard people in my personal life just because they belong to another organisation (I will not cross train, though). I care about the fact that we all share the same passion, & that's just not how my mind or my heart works. To me, there will always be a place for everyone. You never know what the next person may teach you; just like you have taught me now. Your knowledge overflows & that makes you very valuable. I appreciate your gentle approach, as I AM very sensitive.



Yeah, I didn't suggest disregarding anyone or what they say... simply to be aware that different organisations and teachers have different perspectives on these arts... for example the Santo Tonko no Kata from Togakure Ryu has been taught as a Menkyo level of Gyokko Ryu in the Genbukan, but not anywhere else... Manaka of the Jinenkan teaches that the Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu and Jutaijutsu are two syllabus' of the same school, but others teach that they are two separate lineages (which is a view I subscribe to, by the way)... there are different contents to some of the arts (Takagi Yoshin Ryu being the main one, as it's the Mizuta-den in the Bujinkan, and the Ishitani-den in the Genbukan... although both are known there, one is the "official" line)... and this is well and truly before we get to differences in the interpretation of kata, kamae, waza, and more... so a Genbukan practitioner and a Bujinkan practitioner can be in disagreement, but both be "right" according to the teachings of each organisation. Makes it a bit difficult for those caught in the middle, of course... but if you remember that what anyone says is right in their organisation only... then you should be okay.



Tarrycat said:


> I guess you can say that yes, I do think highly of Tanemura & of Hatsumi, because if it weren't for them passing on the art from Takamatsu, we would never have known about it, or be able to do what we love doing. I'm beyond passionate about it & passionate about the Japanese culture. I'm not so sure if the Japanese love us Westerners? I've heard that they frown upon us, but you know what, that doesn't matter. What matters is what I feel. What they've created is what makes me happy in life, so I don't really care. I don't see them as Gods or anything like that, I just respect them. I respect anyone who has put in the effort to be high up or just very knowledgeable. I was raised to be respectful of people like that, I come from a very stern upbringing.



Tha Japanese are interesting... there is a sense of superiority, certainly... but masked by a public politeness that, unless you're quite in tune with the culture, you'd probably mistake for them liking you... tatemae and honne are important concepts to be familiar with... that said, martial art teachers (particularly classical art teachers... and I do not really count any of the Takamatsuden teachers in that, for the record) are more and more excited by Westerners coming along... there are still pockets of resistance and racism, but it's much better than it used to be.



Tarrycat said:


> Thanks again. *



My pleasure.

I've taken the next question and a few of the answers out separately, as I felt it deserved to be looked at away from the other topics...



Tarrycat said:


> I've HEARD that if you do a lot of martial arts at once, it can sometimes get confusing, as you're using a different approach every time. Is that true? Or is it subjective?



Yes, it can be quite confusing, on a few levels... for one thing, a martial art should be a cohesive, synthesised approach to addressing combative questions within it's context... as a result, it's meant to be unified in it's approach to things like tactical weaponry, power sources, range(s), context, and so on... to bring in something else that contradicts that is rather difficult.

To put it this way... say you're training in an art that relies on staying out at a range and kicking, using a power source of pivoting on the support leg to whip the hips around, using the full extension of the leg (say, TKD)... and you then start training in system that teaches you to move in, and employ kicks sparingly, with a power source of driving the hips forwards, and kicking low with minimal extension... you've now trained two opposing and contradictory methods for applying kicks. Now, the "common sense" thing to say here is "well, I'll just use the most appropriate at the time... if they're out, I'll use the TKD approach... if they're closer, I'll use the close quarters one"... except it doesn't work that way.

It's not a matter of using the range you're in... both arts teach you to move to the distance that they work best from... their tactical range... and you can't move forwards and back at the same time... you can't use a full extension whipping kick by moving in past their hands... and you can't drive your hips forwards with a low kick while whipping your hips around for a high, long-extension kick. You have to do one or the other. So which one do you do? Well, that decision is often made on an unconscious level... basically, your unconscious (trained) response will be to select the option that your unconscious believes is the most powerful of the two... which might be the right one, and might not... and might or might not be based in reality. You see, if you spend years watching bad Kung Fu films where everyone seems to do these big kicks, you may have taught your unconscious that that is the most powerful method... even if you haven't developed much skill in that area, compared with the other or not.

At best, you have two options that will never be utilised, so half of your training is wasted... at worst, you have two options that contradict each other, so you have simply taught yourself the entire time that neither of them are powerful, as the other method contradicts them, and you end up with nothing in your toolbox that you can rely on, as your unconscious mind believes neither are good enough to actually work.

Now, that's one case... where the two arts are relatively similar. Let's look at another scenario... where there is little cross-over, and the application of each are clearly separated. Let's look at a close-quarters grappling system and a mid-range striking one... such as Judo or BJJ and Boxing. The rise of MMA would seem to indicate that this is a good approach... after all, many MMA gyms teach this quite successfully, and MMA competitors don't seem to have the issues described above... so why does that seem to work?

Well, a lot of it is that these aren't approached as actual martial arts... they're approached as skill sets... and, as such, are adapted with the individual to limit, or even eliminate problems such as contradictory power sources. This leads to alterations such as the MMA practitioner taking a slightly deeper (wider) stance when boxing than a boxer normally would, being a bit slower, but more geared up to launch grappling attacks as well as defend against them (which a boxer doesn't need to worry about). The skills are also drilled together... boxing into a takedown, into a submission sequence, or kicking into a takedown defence, and moving into boxing, so on and so forth. As a result, these skill sets are combined to create a new training methodology, rather than being distinct martial arts themselves. You will also note that this is most successful in sporting systems.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> After I have killed someone by my punch, on
> 
> - Monday, I will stand on his dead body and post "White crane flap wings" to prove I'm a Taiji guy.
> - Tuesday, I will stand on his dead body and post "Pi Chuan" to prove I'm a XingYi guy.
> - Wednesday, I will walk around his dead body as "Circle walking" to prove I'm a Bagua guy.
> - Thursday, I will stand on his dead body and post "Jab on golden rooster stance" to prove I'm a long fist guy.
> - Friday, I will stand on his dead body and post "YJKYM" to prove I'm a WC guy.
> - Saturday, I will stand on his dead body and post "Left and right double Yin Yang" to prove I'm a preying mantis guy.
> - Sunday, I will lift that dead body over my head as "Firemen's carry" to prove I'm a Chinese wrestler.
> 
> My simple punch is just a simple punch. Which MA style should deserve that credit depend on the day of the week.



John, all this does is confirm to me that you have little more than a superficial grasp of what makes something a martial art, and what the differences are. You train skill sets, not martial arts. And none of that is anything to do with training in different systems... it's superficial misunderstanding, and at the same level of a video game grasp of "systems" (with a single distinct "move" used to define them). And seriously, the bizarre fantasy you have about the amount of damage your punch can do, often talking about them "killing" people, is worrying and rather sick. Just so you know how you're coming across.



drop bear said:


> Yeah look i really hate that approach that you can only do one martial art. I do three or four within my school.



I'd be willing to bet you don't... you do three or four skill sets drawn from particular systems, but not actual systems in the main. At most, you may do BJJ as a separate system, but the rest is more likely skill sets.



drop bear said:


> I just dont understand how people can learn 8 different lanuages, 5 different dance disciplines. Shoot different guns. Go to athletics and compete in different jumps or different running styles. paint a picture in different styles.



I know you don't... we've tried to cover this with you before... the issue with the language one (which is the closest) is that you end up trying to speak French with the grammatical structure of Japanese, and a German accent. By the same token, dancers do often have issues with disparate forms of dance... they tend to specialise in one or two, and are competent in another, but the fact that they are a tango dancer first and foremost shows when they go to do some hip-hop dancing, and vice versa. Different guns don't shoot all that different to each other, and is again just an adapted skill set, and in running, again, typically athletes specialise... the marathon runner doesn't do 100 meter sprints... 

In other words, while you don't understand it, there are some major pitfalls, and each of your examples are susceptible to them... although, given the nature of martial arts, it's a bit different (closest to the language one, but without the time to think things and try to remember the right word in this particular dialect).



drop bear said:


> Everything else you can get your brain around different nuances of the same concept exept martial arts.



It's not your mind that has to get around it, though... that's the issue.



drop bear said:


> I refuse to believe it is any more complicated or the people doing martial arts are any less capable.



Which is you missing that it's the fact that it's martial arts that are the difference... 



Encho said:


> Dear Tarry it really is not difficult to do many different arts as each art has its own methods of doing things, You may see in other art similar things. I enjoy doing different arts.



Hi Encho, 

This is quite an unusual thing to hear from a Koryu practitioner... it's often us who are the most vocal against training in more than one thing at a time... as Koryu training is about shaping the practitioner in all ways to the thinking and mindset of the ryu in question, and having a number of contradictory mindsets is not good for the ryu or practitioner in question... I'm not saying it's impossible (I train in a few myself), but it's typically frowned upon until the student at least has quite a few good years under their belt. Do you mind if I ask what ryu-ha you study, and who with? I wanted to ask in the Aikijutsu thread, but that's becoming quite a train wreck... ha!

On the topic, from a Koryu perspective, the following I feel is quite a good representation of the issues and pitfalls from Ellis Amdur, a senior practitioner of two classical systems: Studying More than One Koryu – 古現武道


----------



## Encho

Hi Chris,
I have not met any other Koryu guys who practice only one art or have not practiced a previous koryu art. 
I completely agree that different Koryu have different mindsets, I may say that in the same art different teachers have different mindsets.
I can send you PM about my teachers


----------



## Chris Parker

Encho said:


> Hi Chris,
> I have not met any other Koryu guys who practice only one art or have not practiced a previous koryu art.
> I completely agree that different Koryu have different mindsets, I may say that in the same art different teachers have different mindsets.
> I can send you PM about my teachers



Practicing a previous art and practicing simultaneously are two different things, of course... that said, provided it's approached correctly (with each ryu being kept separate and distinct), it's certainly possible... but not easy. Most who train more than one aren't really doing the best for each... often there's a dominant system... it works best when different disciplines (one sword, one jujutsu etc), and/or when the arts are separated by a few years in terms of when study is commenced. 

And please feel free to send through the PM... always happy to see more Koryu members on board!


----------



## Encho

Hi Chris
I would say that I personally see myself as a Daito ryu guy, it was my first exposure.


----------



## Chris Parker

Cool. Daito Ryu is a very interesting art... sadly I'm doing too much already, ha! But there are a few training groups around here... and I do enjoy seeing the embu...


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Chris Parker said:


> John, all this does is confirm to *me* that *you* have little more than a superficial grasp of what makes something a martial art,


You have not changed. All your posts are personal attacks.

Please stay on the topic and leave "*me*" and "*you*" out of the discussion.


----------



## Tarrycat

Chris Parker said:


> No problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. When it comes to "internally chang(ing) energy", I didn't read that in your answer at all... I was simply attempting to clarify that your description of a tactical application of elemental concepts was not the same as Tarrycat appears to be describing... so all good there!
> 
> One thing I didn't mention is that, despite the common English translations, the same "elements" in the Godai and Gogyo aren't necessarily the same.... most notably Earth. In the Godai, "earth" is chi (地), with the intent being more in line with the ground, or the surface of the Earth (as distinct from the Heavens), whereas the Gogyo uses the term Do (土), which has more of a meaning of "the soil/dirt", instead of simply the ground (as a surface). Take that for what it's worth....
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I figured that was likely the case... just remember, this is a text-based format... and tonality and body language can be easily missed and misunderstood... often posts aren't as harsh as they first appear...
> 
> 
> 
> Cool.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm... this is not so much the case. You are either a part of the Bujinkan, or you're not. You're either a part of Toshindo, or you're not. And you can't be both.
> 
> And when it comes to your school, the Facebook page is full of mentions of Toshindo South Africa, the introductory video (dated August 12th this year) starts with the words "Toshindo South Africa Presents...", mentions Toshindo South Africa at the end, and gives a website address of www.toshindosa.co.za... the school address I found is www.ninkaibujutsu.co.za, which mentions your teacher being awarded a Shodan in "ninjutsu" (no organisation) from a Emanuel Maisel in 1989... which itself raises a few questions, as the only mention I can find outside of this is a mention of him beginning with Roy Ron Shihan of the Genbukan in 1991, and leaving in 1995... followed by a Nidan in Toshindo in 2010 from Stephen Hayes and (your teacher's personal teacher in the US) Brett "Dotoshi" (a Toshindo "warrior name" given to yudansha, for some reason...) Varnum, who attained a Godan in the Bujinkan in 2003 (before the split between Hayes and the Bujinkan), and later a 7th Dan in Toshindo in 2011... making him a Toshindo practitioner and teacher.
> 
> In other words, pretty much everything points to your dojo being part of the Toshindo (Stephen Hayes') organisation... as that is where the bulk of your teachers authority comes from (Shodan is not a teaching grade in the Bujinkan or Genbukan, so that conveys no authority there). There is also the distinct possibility, knowing some of South Africa's "ninjutsu" community that Emanuel Maisel, when awarding the Shodan in "ninjutsu" was teaching one of the more fraudulent "Koga-ryu" groups that seem to pop up there semi-regularly, hence no organisation being mentioned... and no mention of Maisel's prior training to the Genbukan, which he began training in after awarding your teacher a Shodan.
> 
> None of this is to disparage your teacher, although I will also say, and this is kinda a side note, that there are some rather unusual, or questionable things I find on your website... mostly in terminology and use of Japanese. Your schools name, for instance, is a bit unusual... but before I say anything about it, can you give me a translation/meaning for Ninkai Bujutsu (忍海武術), and tell me what the kanji on the other side of the badge is meant to say (忍法貫)? If you can't, that's okay... honestly, I don't expect you to be able to... but I'd be interested in your teachers answers if he is happy to answer.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I didn't suggest disregarding anyone or what they say... simply to be aware that different organisations and teachers have different perspectives on these arts... for example the Santo Tonko no Kata from Togakure Ryu has been taught as a Menkyo level of Gyokko Ryu in the Genbukan, but not anywhere else... Manaka of the Jinenkan teaches that the Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu and Jutaijutsu are two syllabus' of the same school, but others teach that they are two separate lineages (which is a view I subscribe to, by the way)... there are different contents to some of the arts (Takagi Yoshin Ryu being the main one, as it's the Mizuta-den in the Bujinkan, and the Ishitani-den in the Genbukan... although both are known there, one is the "official" line)... and this is well and truly before we get to differences in the interpretation of kata, kamae, waza, and more... so a Genbukan practitioner and a Bujinkan practitioner can be in disagreement, but both be "right" according to the teachings of each organisation. Makes it a bit difficult for those caught in the middle, of course... but if you remember that what anyone says is right in their organisation only... then you should be okay.
> 
> 
> 
> Tha Japanese are interesting... there is a sense of superiority, certainly... but masked by a public politeness that, unless you're quite in tune with the culture, you'd probably mistake for them liking you... tatemae and honne are important concepts to be familiar with... that said, martial art teachers (particularly classical art teachers... and I do not really count any of the Takamatsuden teachers in that, for the record) are more and more excited by Westerners coming along... there are still pockets of resistance and racism, but it's much better than it used to be.
> 
> 
> 
> My pleasure.
> 
> I've taken the next question and a few of the answers out separately, as I felt it deserved to be looked at away from the other topics...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it can be quite confusing, on a few levels... for one thing, a martial art should be a cohesive, synthesised approach to addressing combative questions within it's context... as a result, it's meant to be unified in it's approach to things like tactical weaponry, power sources, range(s), context, and so on... to bring in something else that contradicts that is rather difficult.
> 
> To put it this way... say you're training in an art that relies on staying out at a range and kicking, using a power source of pivoting on the support leg to whip the hips around, using the full extension of the leg (say, TKD)... and you then start training in system that teaches you to move in, and employ kicks sparingly, with a power source of driving the hips forwards, and kicking low with minimal extension... you've now trained two opposing and contradictory methods for applying kicks. Now, the "common sense" thing to say here is "well, I'll just use the most appropriate at the time... if they're out, I'll use the TKD approach... if they're closer, I'll use the close quarters one"... except it doesn't work that way.
> 
> It's not a matter of using the range you're in... both arts teach you to move to the distance that they work best from... their tactical range... and you can't move forwards and back at the same time... you can't use a full extension whipping kick by moving in past their hands... and you can't drive your hips forwards with a low kick while whipping your hips around for a high, long-extension kick. You have to do one or the other. So which one do you do? Well, that decision is often made on an unconscious level... basically, your unconscious (trained) response will be to select the option that your unconscious believes is the most powerful of the two... which might be the right one, and might not... and might or might not be based in reality. You see, if you spend years watching bad Kung Fu films where everyone seems to do these big kicks, you may have taught your unconscious that that is the most powerful method... even if you haven't developed much skill in that area, compared with the other or not.
> 
> At best, you have two options that will never be utilised, so half of your training is wasted... at worst, you have two options that contradict each other, so you have simply taught yourself the entire time that neither of them are powerful, as the other method contradicts them, and you end up with nothing in your toolbox that you can rely on, as your unconscious mind believes neither are good enough to actually work.
> 
> Now, that's one case... where the two arts are relatively similar. Let's look at another scenario... where there is little cross-over, and the application of each are clearly separated. Let's look at a close-quarters grappling system and a mid-range striking one... such as Judo or BJJ and Boxing. The rise of MMA would seem to indicate that this is a good approach... after all, many MMA gyms teach this quite successfully, and MMA competitors don't seem to have the issues described above... so why does that seem to work?
> 
> Well, a lot of it is that these aren't approached as actual martial arts... they're approached as skill sets... and, as such, are adapted with the individual to limit, or even eliminate problems such as contradictory power sources. This leads to alterations such as the MMA practitioner taking a slightly deeper (wider) stance when boxing than a boxer normally would, being a bit slower, but more geared up to launch grappling attacks as well as defend against them (which a boxer doesn't need to worry about). The skills are also drilled together... boxing into a takedown, into a submission sequence, or kicking into a takedown defence, and moving into boxing, so on and so forth. As a result, these skill sets are combined to create a new training methodology, rather than being distinct martial arts themselves. You will also note that this is most successful in sporting systems.
> 
> 
> 
> John, all this does is confirm to me that you have little more than a superficial grasp of what makes something a martial art, and what the differences are. You train skill sets, not martial arts. And none of that is anything to do with training in different systems... it's superficial misunderstanding, and at the same level of a video game grasp of "systems" (with a single distinct "move" used to define them). And seriously, the bizarre fantasy you have about the amount of damage your punch can do, often talking about them "killing" people, is worrying and rather sick. Just so you know how you're coming across.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be willing to bet you don't... you do three or four skill sets drawn from particular systems, but not actual systems in the main. At most, you may do BJJ as a separate system, but the rest is more likely skill sets.
> 
> 
> 
> I know you don't... we've tried to cover this with you before... the issue with the language one (which is the closest) is that you end up trying to speak French with the grammatical structure of Japanese, and a German accent. By the same token, dancers do often have issues with disparate forms of dance... they tend to specialise in one or two, and are competent in another, but the fact that they are a tango dancer first and foremost shows when they go to do some hip-hop dancing, and vice versa. Different guns don't shoot all that different to each other, and is again just an adapted skill set, and in running, again, typically athletes specialise... the marathon runner doesn't do 100 meter sprints...
> 
> In other words, while you don't understand it, there are some major pitfalls, and each of your examples are susceptible to them... although, given the nature of martial arts, it's a bit different (closest to the language one, but without the time to think things and try to remember the right word in this particular dialect).
> 
> 
> 
> It's not your mind that has to get around it, though... that's the issue.
> 
> 
> 
> Which is you missing that it's the fact that it's martial arts that are the difference...
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Encho,
> 
> This is quite an unusual thing to hear from a Koryu practitioner... it's often us who are the most vocal against training in more than one thing at a time... as Koryu training is about shaping the practitioner in all ways to the thinking and mindset of the ryu in question, and having a number of contradictory mindsets is not good for the ryu or practitioner in question... I'm not saying it's impossible (I train in a few myself), but it's typically frowned upon until the student at least has quite a few good years under their belt. Do you mind if I ask what ryu-ha you study, and who with? I wanted to ask in the Aikijutsu thread, but that's becoming quite a train wreck... ha!
> 
> On the topic, from a Koryu perspective, the following I feel is quite a good representation of the issues and pitfalls from Ellis Amdur, a senior practitioner of two classical systems: Studying More than One Koryu – 古現武道



Yes, it's difficult to interpret the meaning behind people's responses on here. I think that's what got me so frustrated, but so you live & learn. At least the more experienced people on here are more understanding, so I appreciate that & I can learn from that. I am very sensitive in nature, perhaps a bit over-sensitive at times.

This makes a lot of sense to me. I cannot begin to fathom the movement of Ninjutsu, it's very, very, VERY difficult for someone who is just starting. I struggle a lot with the energy, & keeping my body small, & low. The kicks are unlike anything I've ever experienced - it's not a kick in the beginning where you can say "1,2, OKAY DONE!" - it's sooooo complicated! The weight that needs to rest on the hind leg so you are able to pick up the front leg, just all of those tiny details are a LOT to take in for me. It's not an easy art to tap into - It's going to take a while for me to get used to it. I can't imagine doing more than one art... I'll end up like a pretzel!



What I DO know is that we train according to the curriculum of the Bujinkan (the nine classic schools) - I'm not sure if To-Shin-Do follows that curriculum too? I'm not at all familiar with the different curriculums, except that of the Bujinkan. 

I have seen the video, yes. It did indeed state that it was To-Shin-Do, it was taken quite a few years ago. The reason I joined, is because everyone said it's a legitimate organisation; which feels to me like it is. My teacher is extremely good at what he does & passionate about it too.

That's all information that I can provide at this moment. There are pictures of Hatsumi Sensei & Takamatsu mounted all over the walls, some personal pictures of Steven K. Hayes are also mounted on the walls. My teacher likes both the approaches of Bujinkan & Genbukan, he's quite liberal in that sense. Regardless, I will still ask him if we are To-Shin-Do, or Bujinkan. Most likely we are To-Shin-Do, given all of the references you mentioned - that's what makes the most sense to me logically.

There are Genbukan dojo's, but not close to me. I don't live in Johannesburg, I also don't plan to - Dojo Locator

There are Bujinkan dojo's in our region, but it's too far away from me. It's out on the highway, & as a woman, this country isn't safe for me to drive all that way at night. So really, the quality of life here isn't that good. It's not like overseas where everything is controlled, there is no justice here. Jaco Zwanepoel, the instructor at the Centurion branch, I have investigated, died back in 2003 during a robbery. Here you can read about it - Bujinkan Shidoshi Killed - I don't know if anyone has taken over since the incident.

The only thing that I feel I'm missing out on is my connection to all of the other Ninjutsu students out there in the world. It makes me sad, because I would have loved to be part of the Bujinkan or Genbukan, & like they do, gather from all over the world to train (Tai Kai).

Okay our logo, I will try my best to explain it to you, hopefully it makes sense.



A fellow student explained it to me like this:


The "tomoe" represents a storm, or just a very strong wind. It is a metaphor used to reflect your environment, & all of the challenges that you are faced with. To further investigate the meaning behind the "tomoe" - Tomoe - Wikipedia - it was at one stage adopted by the Samurai as their symbol.



In the middle of the storm, is you. It represents change, adaption, enlightenment, basically everything you will learn in the art to help you conquer those difficulties.



That's the best way I can describe it, perhaps there is a better description. That's also something I will enquire on in class. I will let you know about the questions I intend to ask in class.



As to what the Japanese language on the logo means, I don't know. I will find out. 



Tell me Chris, how do you know you're suited for the Bujinkan, Genbukan, or Juninkan? I've heard the Genbukan uses a more aggressive approach?



I'm interested, because if I decide to immigrate, I'll know which organisation to join.



May I ask which organisation you train with & why you joined that organisation in particular? I'm curious as to what your preferences are.



I read that Steven K. Hayes is still affiliated with Bujinkan, only he doesn't teach it? Not too sure.



I'm going to follow you on this website, so whenever I have any questions, I can ask without creating any threads.


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> It's not your mind that has to get around it, though... that's the issue.
> 
> Which is you missing that it's the fact that it's martial arts that are the difference...



Yeah we are all masters of a discipline so special that is cannot even be compared to every other physical, mental or artistic pursuit.

Yet we can still do this pursuit around our work and social lives.

Sorry not going to buy that one.

Oh wait I realise the comparison.

Religion.

Of course. Makes sense now.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

drop bear said:


> Yeah look i really hate that approach that you can only do one martial art. I do three or four within my school.


This is why you have major and minor as you did in school. For example, if the long fist is your major and WC is your minor, you will end with

- long fist with long fist flavor, and
- WC with also long fist flavor.

The reason is simple. You ether believe in

- body rotation, or no body rotation.
- stand side way with 30% weight forward and 70% weight backward, or stand in YJKYM.
- ...

You can only do one. You can't do both at the same time.


----------



## drop bear

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why you have major and minor as you did in school. For example, if the long fist is your major and WC is your minor, you will end with
> 
> - long fist with long fist flavor, and
> - WC with also long fist flavor.
> 
> The reason is simple. You ether believe in
> 
> - body rotation, or no body rotation.
> - stand side way with 30% weight forward and 70% weight backward, or stand in YJKYM.
> - ...
> 
> You can only do one. You can't do both at the same time.



You are not doing both at the same time. I assume they are going to be trained at different times. Not doing two classes at once.

If you aplied them they would be done at different times.

And even if you wanted to do a hybrid they would be done at different times.

So. Get this for a crazy idea, change your stance mid fight. 

The mechanics of a jab is different to the mecanics of a cross. So which one do you train?

The answer is of course the scorpion punch.


----------



## drop bear

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why you have major and minor as you did in school. For example, if the long fist is your major and WC is your minor, you will end with
> 
> - long fist with long fist flavor, and
> - WC with also long fist flavor.
> 
> The reason is simple. You ether believe in
> 
> - body rotation, or no body rotation.
> - stand side way with 30% weight forward and 70% weight backward, or stand in YJKYM.
> - ...
> 
> You can only do one. You can't do both at the same time.



lets look at lomenchenco because he is awesome. His whole structure changes from double jab to jab cross. Feet, positioning, rotation. Everything.






His style changes when he is in close. It changes again when he is just moving around the ring not throwing punches.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Chris Parker said:


> John, all this does is confirm to me that you have little more than a superficial grasp of what makes something a martial art, and what the differences are. You train skill sets, not martial arts. And none of that is anything to do with training in different systems... it's superficial misunderstanding, and at the same level of a video game grasp of "systems" (with a single distinct "move" used to define them). And seriously, the bizarre fantasy you have about the amount of damage your punch can do, often talking about them "killing" people, is worrying and rather sick. Just so you know how you're coming across.


Chris, I think you entirely missed both the tongue-in-cheek nature of the post and its actual point.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> You are not doing both at the same time. I assume they are going to be trained at different times. Not doing two classes at once.
> 
> If you aplied them they would be done at different times.
> 
> And even if you wanted to do a hybrid they would be done at different times.
> 
> So. Get this for a crazy idea, change your stance mid fight.
> 
> The mechanics of a jab is different to the mecanics of a cross. So which one do you train?
> 
> The answer is of course the scorpion punch.


Agreed. I don't think there's such a conflict between most arts (at least, not the ones I've seen). 

I can honestly say that when I was doing FMA, there was a bit of an NGA flavor. My NGA now has some FMA flavor. It also has some Judo flavor, etc. Why? Because my movements are influenced by all of them. I'm not trying to replicate a pure art, even when I'm trying to exactly replicate a movement in a new style I'm learning. I learn the new movement, and when I get to working with it at any speed, what else I know shows up in some small way in the application. Even my teaching is "flavored" by all my other training, because I simply teach what I've found to work. In my case, NGA is simply the container of primary principles I teach within.


----------



## Yamabushii

Tarrycat said:


> Yes, it's difficult to interpret the meaning behind people's responses on here. I think that's what got me so frustrated, but so you live & learn. At least the more experienced people on here are more understanding, so I appreciate that & I can learn from that. I am very sensitive in nature, perhaps a bit over-sensitive at times.
> 
> This makes a lot of sense to me. I cannot begin to fathom the movement of Ninjutsu, it's very, very, VERY difficult for someone who is just starting. I struggle a lot with the energy, & keeping my body small, & low. The kicks are unlike anything I've ever experienced - it's not a kick in the beginning where you can say "1,2, OKAY DONE!" - it's sooooo complicated! The weight that needs to rest on the hind leg so you are able to pick up the front leg, just all of those tiny details are a LOT to take in for me. It's not an easy art to tap into - It's going to take a while for me to get used to it. I can't imagine doing more than one art... I'll end up like a pretzel!
> 
> 
> 
> What I DO know is that we train according to the curriculum of the Bujinkan (the nine classic schools) - I'm not sure if To-Shin-Do follows that curriculum too? I'm not at all familiar with the different curriculums, except that of the Bujinkan.
> 
> I have seen the video, yes. It did indeed state that it was To-Shin-Do, it was taken quite a few years ago. The reason I joined, is because everyone said it's a legitimate organisation; which feels to me like it is. My teacher is extremely good at what he does & passionate about it too.
> 
> That's all information that I can provide at this moment. There are pictures of Hatsumi Sensei & Takamatsu mounted all over the walls, some personal pictures of Steven K. Hayes are also mounted on the walls. My teacher likes both the approaches of Bujinkan & Genbukan, he's quite liberal in that sense. Regardless, I will still ask him if we are To-Shin-Do, or Bujinkan. Most likely we are To-Shin-Do, given all of the references you mentioned - that's what makes the most sense to me logically.
> 
> There are Genbukan dojo's, but not close to me. I don't live in Johannesburg, I also don't plan to - Dojo Locator
> 
> There are Bujinkan dojo's in our region, but it's too far away from me. It's out on the highway, & as a woman, this country isn't safe for me to drive all that way at night. So really, the quality of life here isn't that good. It's not like overseas where everything is controlled, there is no justice here. Jaco Zwanepoel, the instructor at the Centurion branch, I have investigated, died back in 2003 during a robbery. Here you can read about it - Bujinkan Shidoshi Killed - I don't know if anyone has taken over since the incident.
> 
> The only thing that I feel I'm missing out on is my connection to all of the other Ninjutsu students out there in the world. It makes me sad, because I would have loved to be part of the Bujinkan or Genbukan, & like they do, gather from all over the world to train (Tai Kai).
> 
> Okay our logo, I will try my best to explain it to you, hopefully it makes sense.
> 
> 
> 
> A fellow student explained it to me like this:
> 
> 
> The "tomoe" represents a storm, or just a very strong wind. It is a metaphor used to reflect your environment, & all of the challenges that you are faced with. To further investigate the meaning behind the "tomoe" - Tomoe - Wikipedia - it was at one stage adopted by the Samurai as their symbol.
> 
> 
> 
> In the middle of the storm, is you. It represents change, adaption, enlightenment, basically everything you will learn in the art to help you conquer those difficulties.
> 
> 
> 
> That's the best way I can describe it, perhaps there is a better description. That's also something I will enquire on in class. I will let you know about the questions I intend to ask in class.
> 
> 
> 
> As to what the Japanese language on the logo means, I don't know. I will find out.
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me Chris, how do you know you're suited for the Bujinkan, Genbukan, or Juninkan? I've heard the Genbukan uses a more aggressive approach?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm interested, because if I decide to immigrate, I'll know which organisation to join.
> 
> 
> 
> May I ask which organisation you train with & why you joined that organisation in particular? I'm curious as to what your preferences are.
> 
> 
> 
> I read that Steven K. Hayes is still affiliated with Bujinkan, only he doesn't teach it? Not too sure.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to follow you on this website, so whenever I have any questions, I can ask without creating any threads.



Tarry, if you don't mind, I'm going to make a recommendation. I feel you're too young to be posting here about Ninpo. I'm not speaking about your age but your experience with the art. I'm not in the Bujinkan, but still close enough. It's great you trust and respect your sensei so much, but allow your teaching to come directly from him, not from people on the web. I made the same mistake on another forum a few years back. I thought I knew it all and tried to use whatever my teacher told me against people with far more years of experience. It just won't work. After I came to that realization, I stopped posting on martial arts forums for a few years until I learned much, much more. 

You'll even be surprised at where you may agree or disagree with yourself in a couple years. There's nothing wrong with engaging in discussions but you also have to understand that a lot of people here have been through that initial honey moon period that you're in. Just focus on learning in your own school and allow your teacher to answer your questions. No need to prove yourself online - regardless of if you're right or wrong.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Yamabushii said:


> You'll even be surprised at where you may agree or disagree with yourself in a couple years.


Definitely this. There are conclusions and ideas I put in my notes 15 years ago that seem almost foreign to me now.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> I'm not trying to replicate a pure art, ...


The reason that you want to cross train a different MA style is not because you want to relearn how to kick/punch all over again, but how to add some new

- strategies,
- training methods,
- ...

into your own knowledge base. You only need to develop "foundation (engine)" from your major MA systems. But you can apply "strategy" from many different minor MA systems.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Definitely this. There are conclusions and ideas I put in my notes 15 years ago that seem almost foreign to me now.



Which is not in any way a bad thing.


----------



## Tarrycat

Yamabushii said:


> Tarry, if you don't mind, I'm going to make a recommendation. I feel you're too young to be posting here about Ninpo. I'm not speaking about your age but your experience with the art. I'm not in the Bujinkan, but still close enough. It's great you trust and respect your sensei so much, but allow your teaching to come directly from him, not from people on the web. I made the same mistake on another forum a few years back. I thought I knew it all and tried to use whatever my teacher told me against people with far more years of experience. It just won't work. After I came to that realization, I stopped posting on martial arts forums for a few years until I learned much, much more.
> 
> You'll even be surprised at where you may agree or disagree with yourself in a couple years. There's nothing wrong with engaging in discussions but you also have to understand that a lot of people here have been through that initial honey moon period that you're in. Just focus on learning in your own school and allow your teacher to answer your questions. No need to prove yourself online - regardless of if you're right or wrong.



I'm young in the art, yes. There is no denying that. I even spelled Jinenkan wrong ...don't know anything about it. 

Can someone tell me more about it? 

I 100% understand where you're coming from & thank you. I appreciate your input.  x


----------



## Tez3

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why you have major and minor as you did in school.



No idea what that means I'm afraid. it depends very much on where you are in your training in your first style whether you can cope with training another style. it also depends on what other styles you want to learn.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Tez3 said:


> No idea what that means I'm afraid. it depends very much on where you are in your training in your first style whether you can cope with training another style. it also depends on what other styles you want to learn.


All northern CMA are similar. All southern CMA are similar too. The northern CMA long fist is my major, it's easy for me to cross train another northern CMA. It's difficult for me to cross train another southern CMA.

For striking art, I have cross trained

- preying mantis for it's speed generation training.
- Baji for it's power generation training.

 I have no problems to integrate long fist, preying mantis, Baji because they are all northern CMA. I do have difficulty to integrate the

- northern long fist system, and
- southern WC system.

The best I can do is only to integrate on the "principles" level.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Which is not in any way a bad thing.


Agreed. If my understanding and conclusions hadn't changed in 15 years, I've wasted my time.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tarrycat said:


> I've HEARD that if you do a lot of martial arts at once, it can sometimes get confusing, as you're using a different approach every time. Is that true? Or is it subjective?


It can be a problem or it can not be a problem. There are potential pitfalls, but whether they get in your way depends a lot on your mindset, your goals, and your approach to training. It's a complex subject and I'll try to write up a more in-depth discussion of the topic when I have the time.

I will say that I have trained in a lot of martial arts over the years, sometimes 3-4 at a time, and I have not found it confusing. The only downside you can't get around is the issue of available time and energy. Every hour you spend training art A is an hour that you aren't spending training art B.

My primary art for the last 18 years or so has been BJJ. In all that time, I have never encountered a student who I felt was disadvantaged by prior experience in a different art and I have met plenty who I felt gained advantages through their prior experience. Of those that were training another art simultaneously, I've never seen any be confused by the experience. I'll also add that of all the BJJ black belts I know personally, at least 90% have at least black belt or equivalent level experience in at least one other art. I don't think any of us feel that outside experience was any sort of handicap.



Chris Parker said:


> Yes, it can be quite confusing, on a few levels... for one thing, a martial art should be a cohesive, synthesised approach to addressing combative questions within it's context... as a result, it's meant to be unified in it's approach to things like tactical weaponry, power sources, range(s), context, and so on... to bring in something else that contradicts that is rather difficult.





Chris Parker said:


> To put it this way... say you're training in an art that relies on staying out at a range and kicking, using a power source of pivoting on the support leg to whip the hips around, using the full extension of the leg (say, TKD)... and you then start training in system that teaches you to move in, and employ kicks sparingly, with a power source of driving the hips forwards, and kicking low with minimal extension... you've now trained two opposing and contradictory methods for applying kicks. Now, the "common sense" thing to say here is "well, I'll just use the most appropriate at the time... if they're out, I'll use the TKD approach... if they're closer, I'll use the close quarters one"... except it doesn't work that way.
> 
> It's not a matter of using the range you're in... both arts teach you to move to the distance that they work best from... their tactical range... and you can't move forwards and back at the same time... you can't use a full extension whipping kick by moving in past their hands... and you can't drive your hips forwards with a low kick while whipping your hips around for a high, long-extension kick. You have to do one or the other. So which one do you do? Well, that decision is often made on an unconscious level... basically, your unconscious (trained) response will be to select the option that your unconscious believes is the most powerful of the two... which might be the right one, and might not... and might or might not be based in reality. You see, if you spend years watching bad Kung Fu films where everyone seems to do these big kicks, you may have taught your unconscious that that is the most powerful method... even if you haven't developed much skill in that area, compared with the other or not.
> 
> At best, you have two options that will never be utilised, so half of your training is wasted... at worst, you have two options that contradict each other, so you have simply taught yourself the entire time that neither of them are powerful, as the other method contradicts them, and you end up with nothing in your toolbox that you can rely on, as your unconscious mind believes neither are good enough to actually work.



There are some reasonable points here, but I disagree with a lot of your ultimate conclusions. I was starting to type a response to this, but then realized I need a full essay to properly address all your points. I'll plan on making a separate post later today or tomorrow to cover my thoughts in depth. I'm just marking this as a placeholder so someone can remind me if they don't see my post on the subject by Monday or Tuesday.



Chris Parker said:


> Well, a lot of it is that these aren't approached as actual martial arts... they're approached as skill sets... and, as such, are adapted with the individual to limit, or even eliminate problems such as contradictory power sources. This leads to alterations such as the MMA practitioner taking a slightly deeper (wider) stance when boxing than a boxer normally would, being a bit slower, but more geared up to launch grappling attacks as well as defend against them (which a boxer doesn't need to worry about). The skills are also drilled together... boxing into a takedown, into a submission sequence, or kicking into a takedown defence, and moving into boxing, so on and so forth. As a result, these skill sets are combined to create a new training methodology, rather than being distinct martial arts themselves. You will also note that this is most successful in sporting systems.





Chris Parker said:


> I'd be willing to bet you don't... you do three or four skill sets drawn from particular systems, but not actual systems in the main. At most, you may do BJJ as a separate system, but the rest is more likely skill sets.



It can be approached either way, depending on the gym and the practitioner. Some people pull specific skill sets from separate arts and blend them into what is effectively a new martial art. Others actually train the separate arts in their full forms and then also synthesize skills, principles, and tactics from those different arts into their own personal expression of MMA.



Chris Parker said:


> the issue with the language one (which is the closest) is that you end up trying to speak French with the grammatical structure of Japanese, and a German accent.



There are millions of multilingual people in the world who can speak different languages with correct grammar. The accent is harder to eliminate, unless they learn the different languages as a small child. Regardless, that makes no sort of argument against learning different languages. The point of becoming multilingual is to be able to communicate in contexts where you would not otherwise. Nobody reasonable would ever argue "_don't try to learn French, because you'll always have a German accent_."

The same applies to martial arts. If I'm teaching someone Muay Thai, I don't care if they have a TKD "accent". I care about whether they can use what I'm teaching them effectively. For most of us, the point of training in a martial art is not to perform some theoretical platonic ideal of that art as dictated by the founder unsullied by the feel of a different art. Martial arts are human creations used by human beings for human purposes. Maybe we want to be able to fight in a certain context. Maybe we want to develop certain physical or mental attributes. Maybe we just want something which makes us happy. As long as the influence of a second art doesn't get in the way of those purposes, then it isn't a problem.



Chris Parker said:


> John, all this does is confirm to me that you have little more than a superficial grasp of what makes something a martial art, and what the differences are. You train skill sets, not martial arts. And none of that is anything to do with training in different systems... it's superficial misunderstanding, and at the same level of a video game grasp of "systems" (with a single distinct "move" used to define them).



John has been training and teaching martial arts much longer than either of us and has a background which is fairly broad and deep, in arts which neither of us has much experience in. I've also seen posts from him on tactical principles, teaching concepts, and fundamental body mechanics as well as specific physical techniques. I've had plenty of disagreements with him, but I would be very hesitant to call his understanding of martial arts superficial, especially without the opportunity to train with him in person. 



Chris Parker said:


> And seriously, the bizarre fantasy you have about the amount of damage your punch can do, often talking about them "killing" people, is worrying and rather sick. Just so you know how you're coming across





gpseymour said:


> Chris, I think you entirely missed both the tongue-in-cheek nature of the post and its actual point.



I agree with Gerry on this. Admittedly, John's sense of humor can be rather odd at times, but I wouldn't take it too literally.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tarrycat said:


> I read that Steven K. Hayes is still affiliated with Bujinkan, only he doesn't teach it? Not too sure.


According to senior Bujinkan members who lived and trained in Japan, Ste*ph*en Hayes was kicked out years ago. Due to the nature of Japanese etiquette, the Bujinkan has not made any sort of big official public statement regarding this expulsion. This lack of a public announcement has allowed Hayes to present himself as still being a Bujinkan member in good standing. It's been a few years since the last time I saw it discussed, so I don't know if he is still making that claim.


----------



## Tarrycat

Tony Dismukes said:


> According to senior Bujinkan members who lived and trained in Japan, Ste*ph*en Hayes was kicked out years ago. Due to the nature of Japanese etiquette, the Bujinkan has not made any sort of big official public statement regarding this expulsion. This lack of a public announcement has allowed Hayes to present himself as still being a Bujinkan member in good standing. It's been a few years since the last time I saw it discussed, so I don't know if he is still making that claim.



He is, yes... 
Here is the attached link: 
Questions and Answers – Part 4 | An-shu Stephen K. Hayes/

But it's dated back to 2009 though. I'll google & see if I can find more information.


----------



## Tez3

Kung Fu Wang said:


> All northern CMA are similar. All southern CMA are similar too. The northern CMA long fist is my major, it's easy for me to cross train another northern CMA. It's difficult for me to cross train another southern CMA.
> 
> For striking art, I have cross trained
> 
> - preying mantis for it's speed generation training.
> - Baji for it's power generation training.
> 
> I have no problems to integrate long fist, preying mantis, Baji because they are all northern CMA. I do have difficulty to integrate the
> 
> - northern long fist system, and
> - southern WC system.
> 
> The best I can do is only to integrate on the "principles" level.



I know. What I don't know is what you mean by major and minor in schools.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> I know. What I don't know is what you mean by major and minor in schools.


In the US, in college (university), everyone declares a major course of study (mine was Psychology). That's what you get your degree in. Many also declare a minor course of study, which they take fewer courses in than their major, but enough to become knowledgeable. Had I declared one, it would have been Theatre. The analogy is that my "major" in MA is NGA, and I've "minored" in a few others.


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> In the US, in college (university), everyone declares a major course of study (mine was Psychology). That's what you get your degree in. Many also declare a minor course of study, which they take fewer courses in than their major, but enough to become knowledgeable. Had I declared one, it would have been Theatre. The analogy is that my "major" in MA is NGA, and I've "minored" in a few others.



Does that mean then the 'major' course of study isn't enough to keep a student occupied? Is the course not full time as it is here and in Europe?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Does that mean then the 'major' course of study isn't enough to keep a student occupied? Is the course not full time as it is here and in Europe?


No, it just means they have more than one thing they want to study. In my brother's case, his minor was Theatre. He majored in English. That way he had a better chance of finding work (teaching English classes) until he could get into work in his real area of interest. Others do it to link together two areas, so maybe Business and a foreign language, to get into international business.


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> No, it just means they have more than one thing they want to study. In my brother's case, his minor was Theatre. He majored in English. That way he had a better chance of finding work (teaching English classes) until he could get into work in his real area of interest. Others do it to link together two areas, so maybe Business and a foreign language, to get into international business.



Ah just looked up American unis, we do three year courses ( some specialised ones are as long as six/seven years though) and yours are a year longer so you have the time to fit in more studies..  The American university system – 4 ways it’s different from the UK


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Tez3 said:


> I know. What I don't know is what you mean by major and minor in schools.


The major and minor in school is like:

- Computer science is your major.
- Mathematics is your minor.


----------



## Tez3

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The major and minor in school is like:
> 
> - Computer science is your major.
> - Mathematics is your minor.



That doesn't mean anything to anyone outside the US I'm afraid because we don't do that but luckily it's been explained. it also goes to show that not everyone does things the same way.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> That doesn't mean anything to anyone outside the US I'm afraid because we don't do that but luckily it's been explained. it also goes to show that not everyone does things the same way.



Or anyone who watches an American tv show.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Or anyone who watches an American tv show.



No, because how many American television shows tell us that the length of academic courses are four years? It's never relevant because it's American made and for Americans who already know.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tez3 said:


> Ah just looked up American unis, we do three year courses ( some specialised ones are as long as six/seven years though) and yours are a year longer so you have the time to fit in more studies..  The American university system – 4 ways it’s different from the UK


One mistake in terminology from your link:


			
				The linked article said:
			
		

> As you move into your sophomore (second), _minor_ (third) and _major_ (you guessed it… fourth) years you will have a chance to focus on something that you want to study.


A students 3rd and 4th years in school are referred to as their junior and senior years, respectively. Minor and major has nothing to do with that.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tarrycat said:


> He is, yes...
> Here is the attached link:
> Questions and Answers – Part 4 | An-shu Stephen K. Hayes/
> 
> But it's dated back to 2009 though. I'll google & see if I can find more information.


Sigh. I've always liked Steve Hayes well enough in person. He's a thoughtful and creative martial artist and teacher. However this particular screed illustrates something else he is good at: spin, misdirection, obfuscation, and self-aggrandizement. Those were always part of his nature, but it appears he's really cranked them up to 11 these days.


----------



## Tarrycat

Tony Dismukes said:


> Sigh. I've always liked Steve Hayes well enough in person. He's a thoughtful and creative martial artist and teacher. However this particular screed illustrates something else he is good at: spin, misdirection, obfuscation, and self-aggrandizement. Those were always part of his nature, but it appears he's really cranked them up to 11 these days.



Wait, WHAT??? You know Steven? 

Do you think in your opinion that there is some truth to this interview though? 

I haven't really heard anything good about To-Shin-Do. So many people don't like this guy's approach. I don't really know why. I don't know enough... 

I was thinking about establishing a Bujinkan or Genbukan dojo this side. The only thing I'm concerned about, is that we still need modernised techniques that can be applied in this day & age. A lot of those movements are so big, that they aren't very practical. At least that's what I've learnt over the years. I'm not too certain if all the techniques are that big... I speak under correction...


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tarrycat said:


> Wait, WHAT??? You know Steven?


Just as a passing acquaintance. I met him a number of times when I was training in the Bujinkan and he was still part of the organization. I wasn't a direct student, but I attended a bunch of his seminars. I also ran into him around town occasionally since we lived in the same area for a while.



Tarrycat said:


> Do you think in your opinion that there is some truth to this interview though?



Some truth, some irrelevant distractions, some puffery and exaggerations, some unfounded insinuations, some distortions, some important facts omitted. Steve is a master salesman and story teller, which allows him to present a misleading picture without necessarily telling a direct lie. (I'm not in a position to know personally whether there are any direct lies in that essay, but I can certainly recognize where the spin is happening.)



Tarrycat said:


> I haven't really heard anything good about To-Shin-Do. So many people don't like this guy's approach. I don't really know why. I don't know enough...


Lots of people do like Toshindo. I would hope you've heard good things about it from your instructor since that's what he's teaching you. Of those who don't like it, they probably fall into a couple of major camps:
Those who don't care for any of the X-kans and their derivatives.
Those who belong to the Bujinkan and are annoyed because they feel Hayes is misrepresenting his association with and his level of understanding of the Bujinkan arts.
What should matter to you is whether you like what you are learning, not what a bunch of people you don't know say about the art.



Tarrycat said:


> I was thinking about establishing a Bujinkan or Genbukan dojo this side.


To do that, you'd need a qualified instructor from one of those organizations. If you don't have one in the area already, you'd need to spend a long time travelling to train with qualified teachers before you had the requisite knowledge to start your own school.



Tarrycat said:


> The only thing I'm concerned about, is that we still need modernised techniques that can be applied in this day & age. A lot of those movements are so big, that they aren't very practical. At least that's what I've learnt over the years. I'm not too certain if all the techniques are that big... I speak under correction


The big classical movements you are referring to are for training the student's understanding of concepts and principles. Actual application can be much smaller.


----------



## Tez3

Tony Dismukes said:


> One mistake in terminology from your link:
> 
> A students 3rd and 4th years in school are referred to as their junior and senior years, respectively. Minor and major has nothing to do with that.



We have freshers as in new starter and then just students. Another difference I hadn't thought about but had seen it on FB of all things  was that British students don't have to share rooms with anyone, they all have single rooms sharing just kitchens and perhaps bathrooms. An American poster was sharing her amazement that we don't share rooms with complete strangers. Most move out of halls after a year and live in private accommodation sharing a house with other students. We also don't have fraternities or sororities something we do see on American television films and television and find immensely perplexing ( as in really weird actually, I mean why would you?)


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tez3 said:


> We also don't have fraternities or sororities something we do see on American television films and television and find immensely perplexing ( as in really weird actually, I mean why would you?)


It never made sense to me either. I couldn't see the attraction.


----------



## Tarrycat

Tony Dismukes said:


> Just as a passing acquaintance. I met him a number of times when I was training in the Bujinkan and he was still part of the organization. I wasn't a direct student, but I attended a bunch of his seminars. I also ran into him around town occasionally since we lived in the same area for a while.
> 
> 
> 
> Some truth, some irrelevant distractions, some puffery and exaggerations, some unfounded insinuations, some distortions, some important facts omitted. Steve is a master salesman and story teller, which allows him to present a misleading picture without necessarily telling a direct lie. (I'm not in a position to know personally whether there are any direct lies in that essay, but I can certainly recognize where the spin is happening.)
> 
> 
> Lots of people do like Toshindo. I would hope you've heard good things about it from your instructor since that's what he's teaching you. Of those who don't like it, they probably fall into a couple of major camps:
> Those who don't care for any of the X-kans and their derivatives.
> Those who belong to the Bujinkan and are annoyed because they feel Hayes is misrepresenting his association with and his level of understanding of the Bujinkan arts.
> What should matter to you is whether you like what you are learning, not what a bunch of people you don't know say about the art.
> 
> 
> To do that, you'd need a qualified instructor from one of those organizations. If you don't have one in the area already, you'd need to spend a long time travelling to train with qualified teachers before you had the requisite knowledge to start your own school.
> 
> 
> The big classical movements you are referring to are for training the student's understanding of concepts and principles. Actual application can be much smaller.



Wow, thank you for the information. I didn't know I was going to find so much of it on the Internet. 

I'm quite stunned to say the least... 

Yes, I'm going to have to find qualified instructors & all that, I just want to be the person who opens more doors to the art, basically. That's all.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tarrycat said:


> Wow, thank you for the information. I didn't know I was going to find so much of it on the Internet.
> 
> I'm quite stunned to say the least...
> 
> Yes, I'm going to have to find qualified instructors & all that, I just want to be the person who opens more doors to the art, basically. That's all.


If you are enjoying your Toshindo study, you don't have to leave it just because you discovered that it's split off from its parent art. Most martial arts in the world today originally came about when someone went a different direction from their instructor.


----------



## lklawson

Tony Dismukes said:


> Sigh. I've always liked Steve Hayes well enough in person. He's a thoughtful and creative martial artist and teacher. However this particular screed illustrates something else he is good at: spin, misdirection, obfuscation, and self-aggrandizement. Those were always part of his nature, but it appears he's really cranked them up to 11 these days.


As many of you know, I live and work in the Dayton, Ohio area.  Ground Zero for the Hayes system.  It's nearly impossible to be part of the Martial Arts community here and not run across his students.  So far the events have always been "dissatisfying."

At least he's not Ashida Kim.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tarrycat

lklawson said:


> As many of you know, I live and work in the Dayton, Ohio area.  Ground Zero for the Hayes system.  It's nearly impossible to be part of the Martial Arts community here and not run across his students.  So far the events have always been "dissatisfying."
> 
> At least he's not Ashida Kim.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



And did they mention WHY it was dissatisfying? . O.M.G.....can't believe this...


----------



## lklawson

Tarrycat said:


> And did they mention WHY it was dissatisfying? . O.M.G.....can't believe this...


They didn't seem to be dissatisfied with their training.  Most of them seemed to like it.

*I* was dissatisfied with their interactions with me in regards to their training and their Martial Art.

I really don't feel like talking bad about them right now so I'll simply shorthand it to this: If I were interested in studying Ninjutsu, I would not choose a Hayes based school.  Let's just leave it there, shall we?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## CB Jones

lklawson said:


> At least he's not Ashida Kim.



You have something against the 27 Deadly techniques of the infamous poison fist technique?


----------



## lklawson

CB Jones said:


> You have something against the 27 Deadly techniques of the infamous poison fist technique?


I have a friend who has trained in "ninjitsu."  My friend was invited by "Ashida Kim" to come visit him at his compound.  On a lark, he went.

The story my friend tells from there is quite entertaining, but it's not mine to tell.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tarrycat

Tony Dismukes said:


> If you are enjoying your Toshindo study, you don't have to leave it just because you discovered that it's split off from its parent art. Most martial arts in the world today originally came about when someone went a different direction from their instructor.


 
Hearing all of the stories from more experienced people about Hayes, doesn't make me feel like he is in any way legitimate. The only legitimate people I view in the field of Ninjutsu, are the Japanese, incl


lklawson said:


> They didn't seem to be dissatisfied with their training.  Most of them seemed to like it.
> 
> *I* was dissatisfied with their interactions with me in regards to their training and their Martial Art.
> 
> I really don't feel like talking bad about them right now so I'll simply shorthand it to this: If I were interested in studying Ninjutsu, I would not choose a Hayes based school.  Let's just leave it there, shall we?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



*I* misunderstood your message. 

Me neither, pal... Me neither...

Unfortunately I don't have a choice, as the Bujinkan is roughly 40 mins away & I have an overprotective dad who won't allow me to drive that distance, because he doesn't want the guilt hanging over his head when something happens to me here in our wonderful, peaceful country.  - I'm TWENTY FIVE by the way...

No problem. Oyasumi.


----------



## ShortBridge

There are always practical considerations to training. If you are benefiting from the training you are getting, keep going with it. Just keep context in the back of your mind.

Very few really experience d martial Artists I know followed a straight line through their training. Maybe this is just the phase you're in right now. Keep training.


----------



## lklawson

Tarrycat said:


> Unfortunately I don't have a choice, as the Bujinkan is roughly 40 mins away & I have an overprotective dad who won't allow me to drive that distance, because he doesn't want the guilt hanging over his head when something happens to me here in our wonderful, peaceful country.  - I'm TWENTY FIVE by the way...


Your decisions as an adult or not-an-adult and your relationship with your father, including what you choose to do or what he can or can not allow for you, is, honestly, not something that we here on MT can comment on.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Gerry Seymour

lklawson said:


> I have a friend who has trained in "ninjitsu."  My friend was invited by "Ashida Kim" to come visit him at his compound.  On a lark, he went.
> 
> The story my friend tells from there is quite entertaining, but it's not mine to tell.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Oh, I would _*so*_ accept that invitation. I'm fairly certain I could get people to buy me drinks after MA events with a story like that.


----------



## CB Jones

gpseymour said:


> Oh, I would _*so*_ accept that invitation.



Until you find out you have been invited to partake in the sequel to The Amorous Adventures of Ashida Kim


----------



## lklawson

gpseymour said:


> Oh, I would _*so*_ accept that invitation. I'm fairly certain I could get people to buy me drinks after MA events with a story like that.


hahaha..

He told me and some other friends over dinner.  Thai food.  I remember it quite distinctly.  I had Peanut Chicken which I, literally, could not see.  It was after hours at a Western Martial Arts seminar and I'd taken a knife class and my sparring partner for the class (a great guy) stuck his finger into my eye.  That eye kinda swelled up, teared up, and I couldn't see anything out of it the rest of the day.  Frustratingly, the other eye sympathetically teared up and I couldn't see anything out of it either.  Everything was a giant colored smudge.  Think of looking at a Monet through cheese cloth with your eyes squinted.  ...in dim lighting.  

But it was a great story.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Gerry Seymour

lklawson said:


> Think of looking at a Monet through cheese cloth with your eyes squinted. ...in dim lighting.


Sometimes you have a gift for descriptive language, Kirk.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tarrycat said:


> Hearing all of the stories from more experienced people about Hayes, doesn't make me feel like he is in any way legitimate.


It depends on what you mean by "legitimate."

Did Hayes train for many years in the Bujinkan?
Yes.
Was the vast majority of that time spent training and teaching in the U.S. without direct supervision and feedback from his instructors?
Yes.
Did he receive a relatively high rank (10th dan) in the Bujinkan from Hatsumi?
Yes.
Was Hatsumi in the habit of handing out ranks like candy to Westerners who came to visit Japan, so that he eventually had to raise the top belt rank in his system to 15th dan?
Yes.
Is Hayes no longer a member of the Bujinkan?
Yes.
Is the system he teaches primarily based on his personal interpretation and expression of what he learned in the Bujinkan?
Yes.
Have other practitioners split off from the Bujinkan to form their own organizations and teach their own interpretation of the X-kan arts?
Yes.
Are some of them widely considered legitimate instructors of those arts?
Yes.
Do lots of experienced martial artists consider Hayes to be skilled and knowledgeable?
Yes.
Are lots of other experienced martial artists much less impressed with him as a martial artist?
Yes.
Do some experienced practitioners in the Bujinkan, who spent much more time training in Japan under the direct supervision of Hatsumi and the shihans, consider Hayes's understanding of the art to be limited or off-base?
Yes.
Are they correct in that assessment?
Neither you nor I are qualified to say.
Are there serious doubts about the accuracy of the history presented by Hatsumi regarding 6 of the 9 arts which make up the Bujinkan?
Yes.
Are those arts and their derivatives, such as Toshindo, effective for modern day use regardless of their historical lineage?
Experienced martial artists will argue about such matters endlessly. I have my opinions, but you have no reason to trust my opinion over that of your instructor.

Bottom line - it's good to gather information from a variety of sources, but you have to make decisions based on your own experience and judgment, not because someone on a forum told you something.



Tarrycat said:


> The only legitimate people I view in the field of Ninjutsu, are the Japanese


There are non-Japanese who have spent decades and training in Japan.


----------



## Tarrycat

Tony Dismukes said:


> It depends on what you mean by "legitimate."
> 
> Did Hayes train for many years in the Bujinkan?
> Yes.
> Was the vast majority of that time spent training and teaching in the U.S. without direct supervision and feedback from his instructors?
> Yes.
> Did he receive a relatively high rank (10th dan) in the Bujinkan from Hatsumi?
> Yes.
> Was Hatsumi in the habit of handing out ranks like candy to Westerners who came to visit Japan, so that he eventually had to raise the top belt rank in his system to 15th dan?
> Yes.
> Is Hayes no longer a member of the Bujinkan?
> Yes.
> Is the system he teaches primarily based on his personal interpretation and expression of what he learned in the Bujinkan?
> Yes.
> Have other practitioners split off from the Bujinkan to form their own organizations and teach their own interpretation of the X-kan arts?
> Yes.
> Are some of them widely considered legitimate instructors of those arts?
> Yes.
> Do lots of experienced martial artists consider Hayes to be skilled and knowledgeable?
> Yes.
> Are lots of other experienced martial artists much less impressed with him as a martial artist?
> Yes.
> Do some experienced practitioners in the Bujinkan, who spent much more time training in Japan under the direct supervision of Hatsumi and the shihans, consider Hayes's understanding of the art to be limited or off-base?
> Yes.
> Are they correct in that assessment?
> Neither you nor I are qualified to say.
> Are there serious doubts about the accuracy of the history presented by Hatsumi regarding 6 of the 9 arts which make up the Bujinkan?
> Yes.
> Are those arts and their derivatives, such as Toshindo, effective for modern day use regardless of their historical lineage?
> Experienced martial artists will argue about such matters endlessly. I have my opinions, but you have no reason to trust my opinion over that of your instructor.
> 
> Bottom line - it's good to gather information from a variety of sources, but you have to make decisions based on your own experience and judgment, not because someone on a forum told you something.
> 
> 
> There are non-Japanese who have spent decades and training in Japan.



That line about me saying that the only legitimate people are the Japanese was not supposed to post, I typed it out & left it hanging. This is not the first time this site is doing this; I was still a bit uncertain to make such a bold statement, because that is not true, necessarily, since Westerners can also be legitimate, depending on their teachers, of course. It makes me look like a dingleberry.

Can someone tell me WHY this thing posts whenever I type something, & leave it hanging?  (I'm using my mobile). 

You make valid points & you are correct, we cannot disregard Mr. Hayes. 

I am basing all of my knowledge on hearsay & on what I read. 

Thank you for your insight.


----------



## Tarrycat

lklawson said:


> Your decisions as an adult or not-an-adult and your relationship with your father, including what you choose to do or what he can or can not allow for you, is, honestly, not something that we here on MT can comment on.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



No problem. Understood.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tarrycat said:


> Unfortunately I don't have a choice, as the Bujinkan is roughly 40 mins away & I have an overprotective dad who won't allow me to drive that distance, because he doesn't want the guilt hanging over his head when something happens to me here in our wonderful, peaceful country.  - I'm TWENTY FIVE by the way...
> 
> No problem. Oyasumi.


I would assume there is more to the story than just your age. You allow him to have that say over you, and as long as you do the age that you are does not matter. That doesn't mean it's a bad or a good thing that he has that say over you, it just is and you can either accept it or change it.


----------



## Tarrycat

kempodisciple said:


> I would assume there is more to the story than just your age. You allow him to have that say over you, and as long as you do the age that you are does not matter. That doesn't mean it's a bad or a good thing that he has that say over you, it just is and you can either accept it or change it.



On the verge of changing it. I agree with you 100%. 

Life owes you nothing, you can either complain about your situation, or do something about it, which I am. I will deal with what I have at this moment in time. 

I'm still studying, I'm busy with an MBA degree. As soon as I've completed it & I've started working, it will all pass. It will all be worth it. 

Thank you*


----------



## drop bear

Tarrycat said:


> That line about me saying that the only legitimate people are the Japanese was not supposed to post, I typed it out & left it hanging. This is not the first time this site is doing this; I was still a bit uncertain to make such a bold statement, because that is not true, necessarily, since Westerners can also be legitimate, depending on their teachers, of course. It makes me look like a dingleberry.
> 
> Can someone tell me WHY this thing posts whenever I type something, & leave it hanging?  (I'm using my mobile).
> 
> You make valid points & you are correct, we cannot disregard Mr. Hayes.
> 
> I am basing all of my knowledge on hearsay & on what I read.
> 
> Thank you for your insight.



It saves your progress. So if you write it and then close the screen it will be there when you come back.


----------



## Tarrycat

drop bear said:


> It saves your progress. So if you write it and then close the screen it will be there when you come back.



No wonder... . Thank you... I will double-check my messages before I post them.


----------



## Buka

I trained with Hayes a handful of times. Seemed like a nice guy. He did tell great stories, always enjoyable to listen to. I have no idea if what we did was good, or historically correct, because I know less than nothing about the subject matter. But it was a lot of fun.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Buka said:


> I trained with Hayes a handful of times. Seemed like a nice guy. He did tell great stories, always enjoyable to listen to. I have no idea if what we did was good, or historically correct, because I know less than nothing about the subject matter. But it was a lot of fun.


He's definitely a good storyteller.


----------



## Tarrycat

Buka said:


> I trained with Hayes a handful of times. Seemed like a nice guy. He did tell great stories, always enjoyable to listen to. I have no idea if what we did was good, or historically correct, because I know less than nothing about the subject matter. But it was a lot of fun.



I think when you're very experienced in Ninjutsu, you will definitely know the difference between what is real & what isn't. Unfortunately, I, just like you, wouldn't know the difference either. I'm still a lost fart in a s*** storm, to be honest... 

It's good to hear that your experience with him was enjoyable. 

It's just, my antennas tend to go crazy when credible & very experienced teachers on here say things, because obviously they know what they're talking about. I place a lot of value on their opinions, especially Chris'. He knows the art so well, I wouldn't be surprised if he was a Samurai in his previous life... 

Thank you for sharing your experience*


----------



## Tarrycat

Tony Dismukes said:


> He's definitely a good storyteller.


----------



## Buka

Tony Dismukes said:


> He's definitely a good storyteller.



Indeed. My favorite was _"A Samurai, a Shogunate and a Rabbi walk into an Irish bar.."_

Man, talk about a knee slapper.


----------



## Fuhrer Drumpf

Flying Crane said:


> Sure, and add a couple kicks, it's all icing on the cake.  But. One of that is strictly necessary
> 
> i never said there was anything magic or secret about it.  I only say it is a useful training tool.
> 
> That you don't understand that, and don't have the training to know how it works, does not change the fact.



Oh, but I do know all about bunkai. It's an outdated way of doing things, IMO.

Here's food for thought: Why did traditional martial arts stop evolving? The great masters in history always welcomed new approaches and techniques. Heck, Funakoshi Gichin decided that the "old style" of kata sucked and stopped teaching it because his students had concluded this and he agreed.

PS

The innovative spirit of the great masters has vanished.


----------



## Fuhrer Drumpf

lklawson said:


> Horse-crap.
> 
> The early Tudor era ranking system for English Martial Arts through the Company of Maisters required *SEVEN (7) YEARS* between tests.  Start off as a "Scholar" and train for 7 years before you could be considered for testing at Free Scholar.
> 
> Masters of Defense of London
> Company of Masters - Wikipedia



Well, the whole concept is quite silly, in my opinion. Kano began studying the martial arts at age 18 and developed Judo a decade later. Bruce Lee only had five years of formal training before he left for the US. A lot of the 19th and 18th-century masters started training in early adulthood and had superceeded their teachers within several years.

Maybe people just put too much emphasis on "deep meanings" and other hokey religious nonsense.


----------



## Fuhrer Drumpf

DaveB said:


> I used to feel the same, but not that it was a waste of time, more that the training is inefficient to the goal of fighting.
> 
> I realised that most traditionalists aren't training to fight, they are training to *do* "x" art. Also most TMA contain much more than one needs to kickbox and many have a different focus to ring fighting.
> 
> Basically there is a lot of nuance to be considered when comparing any aspect of different martial arts, not least of all is would those people training TMA still be training if it was rejigged towards ring fighting?



I don't care about ring fighting. I care about self-defense. If someone wishes to divorce self-defense fron martial arts, then they ought to take up buddhist ballet.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> Well, the whole concept is quite silly, in my opinion. Kano began studying the martial arts at age 18 and developed Judo a decade later. Bruce Lee only had five years of formal training before he left for the US. A lot of the 19th and 18th-century masters started training in early adulthood and had superceeded their teachers within several years.
> 
> Maybe people just put too much emphasis on "deep meanings" and other hokey religious nonsense.


There will always be exceptions. There are people who, with little or no training, can play nearly any piano piece after a single hearing (with no sheet music). That is not an indicator that piano shouldn't take years to learn. 

But let's go back and look at those two examples. How much did Kano train in those 10 years? And did he have exceptional teachers? And what was his movement like before he started that training?

Bruce Lee was physically exceptional, and exceptionally driven. There are also some who say some of his ideas of WC were underdeveloped.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> I don't care about ring fighting. I care about self-defense. If someone wishes to divorce self-defense fron martial arts, then they ought to take up buddhist ballet.


Okay, so you'd then need to define the level of effectiveness you're talking about in the OP. If you mean the ability to defend against a wild-swinging, unskilled, angry goober, I can get someone there in a few months _*if they are reasonably athletic and at least moderately aggressive by nature*_. Give me someone with poor coordination and low aggression, and even that may take a couple of years.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> The innovative spirit of the great masters has vanished.


Not in the least. There are plenty of innovators (BJJ appears to have quite a few). The issue is too many instructors believing things should stay where the founder (or some other past master) last put them, as if a) that person were perfect, and b) that person had gotten things exactly where he/she wanted them and would never have changed them again. He former is a fallacy, and the latter is exceedingly unlikely.


----------



## jobo

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> I don't care about ring fighting. I care about self-defense. If someone wishes to divorce self-defense fron martial arts, then they ought to take up buddhist ballet.


I've made much the same point, if you cant,BETTER defend yourself after learning ma, they there is something wrong with either you or it. 

but after that its very difficult to define or test, as there is no standard maist and no standard attacker.

but if you apply a statistical approach, then 80 % of the male adult population isn't very fit ie strong, fast good cardio and balance and reactions. In fact 50% of them are notably unfit. If you are up there, in the top 20 30 40 % of the population. Then skills associated with say a yellow belt, should be more than adequate to defend yourself against the vast majority of people, so that's a year max . 

if your lacking in the. Fitness department and come up against someone who is not lacking, then you will have a problem no matter how long you have been studying


----------



## lklawson

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> Here's food for thought: Why did traditional martial arts stop evolving?


Who says they stopped evolving?  Change is still occurring even in "traditional" arts, whether anyone wants to admit it or not.  



> The great masters in history always welcomed new approaches and techniques.


Sez who?  Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.  And who gets to decide what constitutes a "great master?"



> Heck, Funakoshi Gichin decided that the "old style" of kata sucked and stopped teaching it because his students had concluded this and he agreed.


That's not the story I heard.



> The innovative spirit of the great masters has vanished.


It's exactly the same as the way Mimbari souls were being lost to humanity.  To whit, a fantasy.


----------



## lklawson

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> Well, the whole concept is quite silly, in my opinion.


Which is that?  Where you suggested that "_This whole 'years to master' philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts_."  That part?  I agree, it's silly (and wrong) to believe that it was somehow "unique to East Asian martial arts."  Heck, it's not even unique to martial arts.



> Kano began studying the martial arts at age 18 and developed Judo a decade later. Bruce Lee only had five years of formal training before he left for the US. A lot of the 19th and 18th-century masters started training in early adulthood and had superceeded their teachers within several years.
> 
> Maybe people just put too much emphasis on "deep meanings" and other hokey religious nonsense.


You're kinda struggling to string this all together.


----------



## DaveB

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> I don't care about ring fighting. I care about self-defense. If someone wishes to divorce self-defense fron martial arts, then they ought to take up buddhist ballet.


Then I disagree. TMA are reasonably efficient for self defence when you consider that the training is general and not tailored.

General tma training is used to build coordination and fitness as well as skill.


----------



## Flying Crane

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> Oh, but I do know all about bunkai. It's an outdated way of doing things, IMO.
> 
> Here's food for thought: Why did traditional martial arts stop evolving? The great masters in history always welcomed new approaches and techniques. Heck, Funakoshi Gichin decided that the "old style" of kata sucked and stopped teaching it because his students had concluded this and he agreed.
> 
> PS
> 
> The innovative spirit of the great masters has vanished.


Ok.  I guess you have the answers.  It makes no nevermind to me.

I'm just not in the mood to argue with a troll.  Have a good life.


----------



## Fuhrer Drumpf

lklawson said:


> Which is that?  Where you suggested that "_This whole 'years to master' philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts_."  That part?  I agree, it's silly (and wrong) to believe that it was somehow "unique to East Asian martial arts."  Heck, it's not even unique to martial arts.
> 
> You're kinda struggling to string this all together.



Well, as a Japanese American, I can tell you that some things in my culture are more tradition than logic. This applies to martial arts, too. But what's most annoying is when non-Japanese fetishize Japanese martial arts culture and get all 80s-karate-kid weird about it.


----------



## Fuhrer Drumpf

DaveB said:


> Then I disagree. TMA are reasonably efficient for self defence when you consider that the training is general and not tailored.
> 
> General tma training is used to build coordination and fitness as well as skill.



You don't disagree. This is what I said.


----------



## Fuhrer Drumpf

gpseymour said:


> There will always be exceptions. There are people who, with little or no training, can play nearly any piano piece after a single hearing (with no sheet music). That is not an indicator that piano shouldn't take years to learn.
> 
> But let's go back and look at those two examples. How much did Kano train in those 10 years? And did he have exceptional teachers? And what was his movement like before he started that training?
> 
> Bruce Lee was physically exceptional, and exceptionally driven. There are also some who say some of his ideas of WC were underdeveloped.



Kano and Lee weren't the exceptions. (And Lee didn't get muscle until much later. He was still pretty skinny when he was in The Green Hornet.) I think there are many amazing martial artists with a lot of creative potential who just choose to continue in their tradition. I've met many myself, including my stepfather, who was my first martial arts teacher and an extraordinary talent in Shotokan.


----------



## ShortBridge

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> Well, as a Japanese American, I can tell you that some things in my culture are more tradition than logic. This applies to martial arts, too. But what's most annoying is when non-Japanese fetishize Japanese martial arts culture and get all 80s-karate-kid weird about it.



Elizabeth Shue


----------



## Fuhrer Drumpf

ShortBridge said:


> Elizabeth Shue



I had to google her. So she's the blonde from The Karate Kid. Ok. I hate that franchise so much. I hope Pat Morita made decent coin for selling his soul in that garbage role.


----------



## ShortBridge

You brought it up.


----------



## Fuhrer Drumpf

ShortBridge said:


> You brought it up.



Brought what up?


----------



## Tarrycat

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> Brought what up?



I like The Karate Kid... . I like 80's movies. I guess to each his own. Do I know anything about karate? NOPE.


----------



## Tez3

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> I had to google her. So she's the blonde from The Karate Kid. Ok. I hate that franchise so much. I hope Pat Morita made decent coin for selling his soul in that garbage role.



Pat Morita was an actor, he didn't sell his soul that's nonsense. You didn't like the film, many others did and were entertained by it which is the purpose of a film. Your approval isn't necessary.


----------



## Tarrycat

Tez3 said:


> Pat Morita was an actor, he didn't sell his soul that's nonsense. You didn't like the film, many others did and were entertained by it which is the purpose of a film. Your approval isn't necessary.



I agree, Tez. 

As far as I know, Pat was just an actor, he wasn't a martial artist - that's the first thing I googled when I first watched it. 

I think it may have inspired a lot of people to take up Karate or any other martial art, as a self defense mechanism. A lot of kids out there get bullied. The purpose of all movies is to entertain.

The one movie, which I feel portrayed a more accurate image of martial arts (the Bujinkan & Takamatsuden organisations), is The Last Samurai. I absolutely LOVED it. It is so moving, I cry every time I watch it & it reminds me how special the art is. 

Movies aren't always a bad thing. It's not something to take seriously, anyway.


----------



## JR 137

Tarrycat said:


> I agree, Tez.
> 
> As far as I know, Pat was just an actor, he wasn't a martial artist - that's the first thing I googled when I first watched it.
> 
> I think it may have inspired a lot of people to take up Karate or any other martial art, as a self defense mechanism. A lot of kids out there get bullied. The purpose of all movies is to entertain.
> 
> The one movie, which I feel portrayed a more accurate image of martial arts (the Bujinkan & Takamatsuden organisations), is The Last Samurai. I absolutely LOVED it. It is so moving, I cry every time I watch it & it reminds me how special the art is.
> 
> Movies aren't always a bad thing. It's not something to take seriously, anyway.


I’m not an MA movie fan at all.  They’re usually way too over the top, bad acting, stupid story lines, etc.  But the Last Samurai is one of my favorite movies, regardless of genre.  I don’t know much about actual samurai techniques nor actual sword techniques, so it could be way off from a true sense,  it it looks like actual MA during most of it to me.


----------



## JR 137

Tarrycat said:


> I agree, Tez.
> 
> As far as I know, Pat was just an actor, he wasn't a martial artist - that's the first thing I googled when I first watched it.
> 
> I think it may have inspired a lot of people to take up Karate or any other martial art, as a self defense mechanism. A lot of kids out there get bullied. The purpose of all movies is to entertain.
> 
> The one movie, which I feel portrayed a more accurate image of martial arts (the Bujinkan & Takamatsuden organisations), is The Last Samurai. I absolutely LOVED it. It is so moving, I cry every time I watch it & it reminds me how special the art is.
> 
> Movies aren't always a bad thing. It's not something to take seriously, anyway.


Pat Morita was heavily inspired by Fumio Demura, a truly renowned Shito Ryu karate legend.  Demura was also Morita’s stunt double during I believe all 3 films.


----------



## JR 137

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> I had to google her. So she's the blonde from The Karate Kid. Ok. I hate that franchise so much. I hope Pat Morita made decent coin for selling his soul in that garbage role.


Seeing as how Morita didn’t have a noteworthy career before the Miyagi role, I wouldn’t say he sold out.  He wasn’t a highly regarded actor who took a role he hated for some money.

The third movie was garbage.  The first and second were great IMO.  I was in I think 3rd grade when the first one came out, so I’m a bit biased I guess.


----------



## hoshin1600

JR 137 said:


> Morita didn’t have a noteworthy career before the Miyagi role


now wait just a darn tootin minute.....Pat was Arnold in the TV show "Happy Days"!!!   Happy Days is an iconic piece of Americana.  (my favorite show as a youngster)    without Arnold's where would we be today? 
not to mention his appearance in the show "Welcome Back"   where he was an inventor who invented musical underwear.  Al Pachino or Meryl Streep never invented musical underwear ...now did they?



JR 137 said:


> He wasn’t a highly regarded actor who took a role he hated for some money.


The thing is Pat Morita was actually a stand up comedian. 



JR 137 said:


> Pat Morita was heavily inspired by Fumio Demura, a truly renowned Shito Ryu karate legend.  Demura was also Morita’s stunt double during I believe all 3 films.


According to the NetFlix special on Demura,  Fumio Demura was the first choice for the role but Fumio turned it down because he didnt think he could act, so instead did the martial arts parts.  Pat and Fumio shared a special botherly bond.


----------



## lklawson

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> Well, as a Japanese American, I can tell you that some things in my culture are more tradition than logic. This applies to martial arts, too. But what's most annoying is when non-Japanese fetishize Japanese martial arts culture and get all 80s-karate-kid weird about it.


That's nice.

As a mixed heritage, German-American/Scottish-American/God-knows-what-American, I find it annoying when someone makes broad and inclusive statements such as, ""_This whole 'years to master' philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts_." which are patently wrong and easily disproved with a simple web search.

The whole "I'm a Japanese-American" thing is utterly and completely irrelevant to the subject at hand.


----------



## hoshin1600

ShortBridge said:


> Elizabeth Shue


It always comes back to Elizabeth Shue ,,,doesnt it......


----------



## Tez3

lklawson said:


> The whole "I'm a Japanese-American" thing is utterly and completely irrelevant to the subject at hand.



This is something that is baffling to non Americans because when we look at you we see _Americans_, it doesn't occur to us that you might want to be split down into ancestral divisions. We also assume that the culture you have is American because you know.... you are Americans.  Many people here who have forbears not from UK carry on *customs* from those countries but their culture is firmly British ( ie they eat fish and chips, curry, (often together with curry sauce on the chips), watch Coronation Street  and discuss the weather) so we think it would be the same with you lot. 
I'm also thinking an awful lot of Japanese people have no more than a passing interest in martial arts despite many people assuming that if someone is Japanese/Chinese looking they are automatically a master in karate/Kung Fu.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> This is something that is baffling to non Americans because when we look at you we see _Americans_, it doesn't occur to us that you might want to be split down into ancestral divisions. We also assume that the culture you have is American because you know.... you are Americans.  Many people here who have forbears not from UK carry on *customs* from those countries but their culture is firmly British ( ie they eat fish and chips, curry, (often together with curry sauce on the chips), watch Coronation Street  and discuss the weather) so we think it would be the same with you lot.
> I'm also thinking an awful lot of Japanese people have no more than a passing interest in martial arts despite many people assuming that if someone is Japanese/Chinese looking they are automatically a master in karate/Kung Fu.


It's a bit baffling to some Americans, too.


----------



## lklawson

Tez3 said:


> This is something that is baffling to non Americans because when we look at you we see _Americans_, it doesn't occur to us that you might want to be split down into ancestral divisions.


Generally speaking, it's a pretty new phenomenon.  Historically speaking, it really didn't become a "thing" here in the U.S. before the rise of the designation of "African American" as a substitute for "Black" or any of the others some time in the 1980's or so.  

To a certain degree it is tied to the long-standing racial tensions here in the U.S.

While there are some who use _X_-American as a way to divisively differentiate groups of people here in the U.S., there are others who embrace it as a way of identifying a "heritage" and to give themselves "roots," so to speak.  "This is my heritage and I am proud of it."  Local heritage groups, often very specific in focus, exist to fill this desire.  There is a Celtic Dance club here in the Dayton, Ohio area catering to people who identify as an Irish heritage.  I know of people who study Irish Martial Arts such as Bhata (cane-fighting) and Wrestling & Boxing styles identified as Irish origin or particularly popular with Irish during the diaspora following the Great Potato Famine, specifically *BECAUSE* the arts are "Irish," as a way of expressing their Irish-ness and connecting with their roots.

To summarize, there are many who hyphenate (one of) their ethnic origins to "American" who do so to identify with their perceived heritage and there are many who do it to segregate themselves or others.

The more I see it evolve, the more I see it used as a way of dividing people or claiming a position of authority.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## CB Jones

JR 137 said:


> Pat Morita was heavily inspired by Fumio Demura, a truly renowned Shito Ryu karate legend.  Demura was also Morita’s stunt double during I believe all 3 films.



Morita also mimicked a lot of Demura's mannerisms for Mr Miyagi's character.


----------



## Tez3

lklawson said:


> I know of people who study Irish Martial Arts such as Bhata (cane-fighting)



Bhata is a town in Pakistan lol, bata is the Erse word for 'stick', the Irish do stick fighting not cane fighting ( bamboo doesn't grow in Ireland.) , bataireacht is stick fighting. I've watch the Royal Irish doing it in their gym. Their SNCOs carry the Sail Éille (shillelagh) instead of the pace stick that other regiments have.


----------



## lklawson

Tez3 said:


> Bhata is a town in Pakistan lol, bata is the Erse word for 'stick',


I've seen it anglicized both ways (and a few more).  You wouldn't believe the arguments I've seen online between people studying the archaic forms of the language, referencing antique books, etc.  Or maybe you wouldn't be surprised at all.  In some ways it's not too different from people arguing about anything else.  



> the Irish do stick fighting not cane fighting ( bamboo doesn't grow in Ireland.) , bataireacht is stick fighting.


This probably won't surprise you but I do study one of the systems, specifically in its 19th Century context.  Learned from those of "Irish heritage" and referenced through the few remaining written sources of the time.  When I write "cane" I am referring specifically to the use as a "gentleman's walking stick" as was common in the late 19th Century.  In this case the "shillelagh" was a knobbed cane/walking-stick.



> I've watch the Royal Irish doing it in their gym.


There is a renaissance of historical "Irish" martial methods.  Scottish too.  I have a number of friends who are delving deep into Scottish sources.

I study these things because I think it's neat and I'm a bit of an anachronism.  But, again, a lot of people here in the U.S. are studying as a way of "connecting with their roots."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tez3

lklawson said:


> There is a renaissance of historical "Irish" martial methods



I don't think it's a 'renaissance' with these guys, nor do I think it's historical with them as their regiment dates from the 17th century and it's something they've always done. I doubt it's as finessed as training elsewhere but it's very realistic. They will even use it outside the camp gates because I have only met one other regiment ( The Black Watch) that fights as much as they do, if they run out of people to fight they will fight among themselves. Never though unlike other regiments have I ever been threatened by them though.

A 'cane' in the UK is specifically a bamboo cane, usually used to spank children ( historically) and willing adults, sometimes used as a dandy's walking stick.


----------



## lklawson

Tez3 said:


> I don't think it's a 'renaissance' with these guys, nor do I think it's historical with them as their regiment dates from the 17th century and it's something they've always done. I doubt it's as finessed as training elsewhere but it's very realistic.


I was referring to the status in the U.S.  



> They will even use it outside the camp gates because I have only met one other regiment ( The Black Watch) that fights as much as they do, if they run out of people to fight they will fight among themselves. Never though unlike other regiments have I ever been threatened by them though.


Historic Black Watch documents are an important source for many of my friends studying Scottish martial arts.



> A 'cane' in the UK is specifically a bamboo cane, usually used to spank children ( historically) and willing adults, sometimes used as a dandy's walking stick.


Yeah, well, you guys also misuse the term "pants" so what do you know.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tez3

lklawson said:


> Historic Black Watch documents are an important source for many of my friends studying Scottish martial arts.



They aren't a well liked regiment in some places including the 'Irish' parts of the USA because of the Troubles in Northern Ireland. In Scotland they aren't too loved either because they were considered 'traitors' to the Jacobite cause, they also had Campbells who to this day can have problems in some parts of Scotland. They are also known for dirty fighting and no one likes getting in to sort it out.


----------



## JR 137

hoshin1600 said:


> now wait just a darn tootin minute.....Pat was Arnold in the TV show "Happy Days"!!!   Happy Days is an iconic piece of Americana.  (my favorite show as a youngster)    without Arnold's where would we be today?
> not to mention his appearance in the show "Welcome Back"   where he was an inventor who invented musical underwear.  Al Pachino or Meryl Streep never invented musical underwear ...now did they?
> 
> 
> The thing is Pat Morita was actually a stand up comedian.
> 
> 
> According to the NetFlix special on Demura,  Fumio Demura was the first choice for the role but Fumio turned it down because he didnt think he could act, so instead did the martial arts parts.  Pat and Fumio shared a special botherly bond.


I knew he was Arnold.  But he wasn’t exactly Pacino, DeNiro, et al. was my point.

I can’t remember who recommended Morita for the role initially, but either the director was strongly opposed to him and the producer was strongly wanted him, or the other way around due to Morita being a stand up comedian and previously Arnold.  That person thought no one would take him seriously in that role.  That feeling reportedly changed completely after about a minute into Morita’s audition.


----------



## ShortBridge

Tez3 said:


> This is something that is baffling to non Americans because when we look at you we see _Americans_, it doesn't occur to us that you might want to be split down into ancestral divisions. We also assume that the culture you have is American because you know.... you are Americans.  Many people here who have forbears not from UK carry on *customs* from those countries but their culture is firmly British ( ie they eat fish and chips, curry, (often together with curry sauce on the chips), watch Coronation Street  and discuss the weather) so we think it would be the same with you lot.
> ...



I'm not entirely sure I agree with your perspective on this, Tez and it's something that I've thought a lot about. In certain parts of the US, we still have strong, active communities of ethnic communities; Irish, Polish, Czech, Italian, Dominican... /Americans. Some cities, like mine for example, have Chinatowns and ours bleeds into Vietnamese, Japanese, Thai and other communal neighborhoods. Younger generations identify more as American, but they still have those ties.

I think that there is also a resurgence of interest from average American mutts like me in understanding some family history that ties us to somewhere or something other than what we know. DNA testing for this purpose is on the rise and there are several TV shows about genealogy. I grew up around ethnic communities in the US and lamented not having a duel identity American and X. Certainly not everyone feels that way, the US is a big place with a lot of people in it and my perspective is probably just as accurate as your generalization, which is to say that neither is quite right as a rule of thumb.

...and for reasons that I can't begin to explain, I've watched more than my share of Corrie.


----------



## JR 137

CB Jones said:


> Morita also mimicked a lot of Demura's mannerisms for Mr Miyagi's character.


0:38 in says it all...


----------



## hoshin1600

JR 137 said:


> I knew he was Arnold.  But he wasn’t exactly Pacino, DeNiro, et al. was my point.
> 
> I can’t remember who recommended Morita for the role initially, but either the director was strongly opposed to him and the producer was strongly wanted him, or the other way around due to Morita being a stand up comedian and previously Arnold.  That person thought no one would take him seriously in that role.  That feeling reportedly changed completely after about a minute into Morita’s audition.


yes my post was meant to be tongue in cheek.


----------



## Steve

ShortBridge said:


> I'm not entirely sure I agree with your perspective on this, Tez and it's something that I've thought a lot about. In certain parts of the US, we still have strong, active communities of ethnic communities; Irish, Polish, Czech, Italian, Dominican... /Americans. Some cities, like mine for example, have Chinatowns and ours bleeds into Vietnamese, Japanese, Thai and other communal neighborhoods. Younger generations identify more as American, but they still have those ties.
> 
> I think that there is also a resurgence of interest from average American mutts like me in understanding some family history that ties us to somewhere or something other than what we know. DNA testing for this purpose is on the rise and there are several TV shows about genealogy. I grew up around ethnic communities in the US and lamented not having a duel identity American and X. Certainly not everyone feels that way, the US is a big place with a lot of people in it and my perspective is probably just as accurate as your generalization, which is to say that neither is quite right as a rule of thumb.
> 
> ...and for reasons that I can't begin to explain, I've watched more than my share of Corrie.


I completely agree on an individual level, but have seen the neighborhoods in Seattle become more homogenous over the last 30 years.  Ballard even into the 1990s was a proud Scandinavian community, but has become virtually indistinguishable from any other borough due to the rampant gentrification that is occurring due to MS, Amazon, Google and the rest.  It's a shame when you see the Swedish bakeries on 15th NW close and yet another generic business open in its place.  Best case is when a neighborhood becomes a shell of itself, such as Fremont, Wallingford, Maple Leaf, Roosevelt and the rest. 

South Seattle is next.  Beacon Hill, Central District and Georgetown are being "discovered" and within 10 or 15 years, any vestige of the Seattle I knew as a kid will be gone and it may as well be Bellevue-lite at that point.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Steve said:


> It's a shame when you see the Swedish bakeries on 15th NW close and yet another generic business open in its place.


Yeah, the loss of culinary cultural heritage is a shame. Fortunately you can still get Powdermilk Biscuits, made from whole wheat raised by Norwegian bachelor farmers, so you know they're not only good for you, they're pure, mostly.


----------



## Steve

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, the loss of culinary cultural heritage is a shame. Fortunately you can still get Powdermilk Biscuits, made from whole wheat raised by Norwegian bachelor farmers, so you know they're not only good for you, they're pure, mostly.


What I do like is the explosion of indian food that we've enjoyed around here.  While my Viking roots are disappearing (or at least, I need to take the ferry over to Poulsbo), the curry and jalfreezi are awesome.  We also have a ton of great Pho restaurants around now, too.


----------



## Tez3

ShortBridge said:


> I'm not entirely sure I agree with your perspective on this, Tez and it's something that I've thought a lot about. In certain parts of the US, we still have strong, active communities of ethnic communities; Irish, Polish, Czech, Italian, Dominican... /Americans. Some cities, like mine for example, have Chinatowns and ours bleeds into Vietnamese, Japanese, Thai and other communal neighborhoods. Younger generations identify more as American, but they still have those ties.
> 
> I think that there is also a resurgence of interest from average American mutts like me in understanding some family history that ties us to somewhere or something other than what we know. DNA testing for this purpose is on the rise and there are several TV shows about genealogy. I grew up around ethnic communities in the US and lamented not having a duel identity American and X. Certainly not everyone feels that way, the US is a big place with a lot of people in it and my perspective is probably just as accurate as your generalization, which is to say that neither is quite right as a rule of thumb.
> 
> ...and for reasons that I can't begin to explain, I've watched more than my share of Corrie.



You may not agree but you have to understand the perspective is from a non American's point of view. If you are a country it's hard not to see people there as belonging to that country, not as some sort of dual citizens. 
Communities sharing common interests often do keep up customs but the culture would be that of the country they were born and grew up in.


----------



## Tez3

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, the loss of culinary cultural heritage is a shame. Fortunately you can still get Powdermilk Biscuits, made from whole wheat raised by Norwegian bachelor farmers, so you know they're not only good for you, they're pure, mostly.



I looked them up, they're scones.  We make a lot of them over here. 
Biscuits are what you call 'cookies'.


----------



## ShortBridge

Tez3 said:


> You may not agree but you have to understand the perspective is from a non American's point of view. If you are a country it's hard not to see people there as belonging to that country, not as some sort of dual citizens.
> Communities sharing common interests often do keep up customs but the culture would be that of the country they were born and grew up in.



This is all perspective, yours, mine, and we are looking through different lenses and seeing similar, but not exactly the same things.


I don't think it's about duel citizenship. But it is about ethnic tradition, cultural, linguistic, and otherwise. There are very homogeneous parts of the US and other parts that are very diverse. I get that what we put out is how we look to the rest of the world. I'm not always proud of that and certainly not lately. Fortunately my experiences don't frequently match that image.


----------



## Tarrycat

Tez3 said:


> I looked them up, they're scones.  We make a lot of them over here.
> Biscuits are what you call 'cookies'.



"...Powdermilk Biscuits, made from whole wheat raised by Norwegian bachelor farmers..."   . Now THAT's a very unique name for scones!


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tez3 said:


> I looked them up, they're scones.  We make a lot of them over here.
> Biscuits are what you call 'cookies'.





Tarrycat said:


> "...Powdermilk Biscuits, made from whole wheat raised by Norwegian bachelor farmers..."   . Now THAT's a very unique name for scones!



For the non-Americans and the non-NPR listeners, I was making a reference to the (fictitious) sponsor of A Prairie Home Companion.

_"Heavens they're tasty, and expeditious. Give shy persons the strength they need to get up and do what needs to be done. Made from whole wheat raised by Norwegian bachelor farmers, so you know they're not only good for you, they're pure, mostly. Get 'em in the bright blue box with a picture of a biscuit on the front, or ready-made in the brown bag with the dark stains that indicate freshness"_






_Has your __family__ tried them? (Powdermilk!)
Has your __family__ tried them? (Powdermilk!)
Well, if your family's tried 'em,
then you know you've satisfied 'em
They're a __real_ _hot__ item: Powdermilk!

_


----------



## Xue Sheng

JR 137 said:


> 0:38 in says it all...



Had a chance to train with Fumio Demura many years ago. He was the only reason I drove the distance (about 100 miles) I had to for the seminar he was at. He was showing some application s that involved a punch/block/grab that ended with throwing the guy to the floor. I was training Taijiquan and a bit of Bagua and Xingyi then and my approach was to automatically relax when grabbed. There were a lot of seminars that day and everyone was having trouble applying their technique to me and I apologized multiple times, but I could not help it. I eventually gave up on most of the seminars due to my inability to tense up when grabbed.

But I went there for the Fumio Demura seminar so I did not avoid that one. And everyone there, that was my partner, was having the same issue with me. Then finally one of the students asked Demura Sensei what the problem was. He had me throw the punch at him and he threw me on the floor with no problem at all. Relaxed or tense, made no difference to him.


----------



## Tez3

Tony Dismukes said:


> For the non-Americans and the non-NPR listeners, I was making a reference to the (fictitious) sponsor of A Prairie Home Companion.
> 
> _"Heavens they're tasty, and expeditious. Give shy persons the strength they need to get up and do what needs to be done. Made from whole wheat raised by Norwegian bachelor farmers, so you know they're not only good for you, they're pure, mostly. Get 'em in the bright blue box with a picture of a biscuit on the front, or ready-made in the brown bag with the dark stains that indicate freshness"_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Has your __family__ tried them? (Powdermilk!)
> Has your __family__ tried them? (Powdermilk!)
> Well, if your family's tried 'em,
> then you know you've satisfied 'em
> They're a __real_ _hot__ item: Powdermilk!
> _



Powdermilk Biscuits


----------



## oftheherd1

I've seen thread drift, but from how long it takes to learn martial arts (Black belts guaranteed in a month, two weeks if you double the fee) to how to bake biscuits?

And you didn't ask, but I like my doughy.


----------



## CB Jones

oftheherd1 said:


> I've seen thread drift, but from how long it takes to learn martial arts (Black belts guaranteed in a month, two weeks if you double the fee) to how to bake biscuits?
> 
> And you didn't ask, but I like my doughy.



How bout we tie it all in....

My son has trained for 8 years and received his youth blackbelt in 7 years (officially he is still a 9th kyu though) and his Sensei is good friends with Demura who a couple years ago gave my son an Autographed copy of his Book on the Sai and although we like Powdermilk Biscuits we prefer Homemade Sweet Potato Bisquits more.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> For the non-Americans and the non-NPR listeners, I was making a reference to the (fictitious) sponsor of A Prairie Home Companion.
> 
> _"Heavens they're tasty, and expeditious. Give shy persons the strength they need to get up and do what needs to be done. Made from whole wheat raised by Norwegian bachelor farmers, so you know they're not only good for you, they're pure, mostly. Get 'em in the bright blue box with a picture of a biscuit on the front, or ready-made in the brown bag with the dark stains that indicate freshness"_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Has your __family__ tried them? (Powdermilk!)
> Has your __family__ tried them? (Powdermilk!)
> Well, if your family's tried 'em,
> then you know you've satisfied 'em
> They're a __real_ _hot__ item: Powdermilk!
> _


I miss Garrison on that show.


----------



## Juany118

The OPs premise wrong imo.  There is a spectrum of expertise; neophyte, novice, journeyman, expert, master or whatever synonyms you wish to use for the above terms.

I am a proficient fighter, it didn't take me years and years, I would likely put myself in the "journeyman" of sorts.  One day I may redefine my skill level but that is a matter of not only time but effort.

The same applies to boxers. The best boxers start training in their youth and only after a few years of competition as teenagers as an amature move onto the pros.  Even then it is usually many fights before people start saying they have adjusted to the pro level and even then they often get "better".  You do have the occasional prodigy but it's all about hard work overtime, it's just that the "bigs" like Mayweather are essentially prodigies that bust the curve.

I will say TMAs are more complicated.  You can have a prodigy that kicks butt as a fighter, who has the technical skill of a "master".  Some TMAs would indeed call this prodigy a "master", others however have strong elements in their art that go beyond the fighting.  Often these "soft skills", meditation, traditional medicine, philosophical understanding etc, take more time to learn and master than the "fighting" aspect.  I would say an example of this would be Bruce Lee.  By all accounts he was a good fighter as a kid, it took many years however for him to master his temper (which he only partially did) and become mature enough to start looking at the philosophical portion of the Martial Arts which brought him to the conclusion that in order to put his Philosophy into practice he would have to create his own Martial Art, which resulted in even more years of study to find the elements which fit with his Philosophy.


----------



## Tarrycat

Scones with real butter & strawberry, or apricot jam...


----------



## Tez3

Tarrycat said:


> Scones with real butter & strawberry, or apricot jam...



and Cornish cream!


----------



## JR 137

Be sure to drink your Ovaltine.


----------



## Tez3

JR 137 said:


> Be sure to drink your Ovaltine.



??


----------



## Danny T

Juany118 said:


> The OPs premise wrong imo.  There is a spectrum of expertise; neophyte, novice, journeyman, expert, master or whatever synonyms you wish to use for the above terms.
> 
> I am a proficient fighter, it didn't take me years and years, I would likely put myself in the "journeyman" of sorts.  One day I may redefine my skill level but that is a matter of not only time but effort.
> 
> The same applies to boxers. The best boxers start training in their youth and only after a few years of competition as teenagers as an amature move onto the pros.  Even then it is usually many fights before people start saying they have adjusted to the pro level and even then they often get "better".  You do have the occasional prodigy but it's all about hard work overtime, it's just that the "bigs" like Mayweather are essentially prodigies that bust the curve.
> 
> I will say TMAs are more complicated.  You can have a prodigy that kicks butt as a fighter, who has the technical skill of a "master".  Some TMAs would indeed call this prodigy a "master", others however have strong elements in their art that go beyond the fighting.  Often these "soft skills", meditation, traditional medicine, philosophical understanding etc, take more time to learn and master than the "fighting" aspect.  I would say an example of this would be Bruce Lee.  By all accounts he was a good fighter as a kid, it took many years however for him to master his temper (which he only partially did) and become mature enough to start looking at the philosophical portion of the Martial Arts which brought him to the conclusion that in order to put his Philosophy into practice he would have to create his own Martial Art, which resulted in even more years of study to find the elements which fit with his Philosophy.


FYI...Mayweather trained for years beginning around 3 years of age and had 92 official fights as a amateur (84-8). This doesn't include the many club fights or smokers. When he turned pro in 1996 he had been training for 16 years.


----------



## Tarrycat

Tez3 said:


> and Cornish cream!



I've never tasted Cornish cream or tea, Tez. 

I've only tasted it with normal whipped cream... 

What does it taste like? . We have the plain Five Roses tea (I think it's plain English tea?), & then Rooibos. Rooibos is the good stuff! We drink it with honey. 

I drink a lot of green tea for energy during the day as well. Not very fond of the bitter taste, but it's the only thing so far that maintains my energy levels throughout the day. I take it with to the dojo, to class, to the gym, you name it.


----------



## Tarrycat

JR 137 said:


> Be sure to drink your Ovaltine.



Milo!


----------



## Tarrycat

Tez3 said:


> ??



Ovaltine is a hot beverage. It's like Milo, Cocoa, Hot Chocolate, or Horlicks. It's made of malt extract sugar. It's just a little too sweet in my opinion!


----------



## Tez3

Tarrycat said:


> Ovaltine is a hot beverage. It's like Milo, Cocoa, Hot Chocolate, or Horlicks. It's made of malt extract sugar. It's just a little too sweet in my opinion!



Yep, it's drunk here before going to bed, some say it's to help you sleep but as you say it's sweet so we know why people are actually drinking it before bedtime!

Cornish ( and Devon) cream is delicious. Clotted cream - Wikipedia


----------



## Juany118

Danny T said:


> FYI...Mayweather trained for years beginning around 3 years of age and had 92 official fights as a amateur (84-8). This doesn't include the many club fights or smokers. When he turned pro in 1996 he had been training for 16 years.



I was more referring to his "out of the gate" pro wins.  Usually you need to "find your legs"


----------



## JR 137

Tez3 said:


> ??








I’ll excuse you for not knowing the movie, being British all.


----------



## MasterArtMason

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an excellent fighter in a relatively short amount of time.
> 
> When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> PS
> 
> I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."



There is also a psychology to all this. Some people do not need a martial art to be effective on the street or in a ring. Plus as someone previously stated there is a difference between proficiency and mastery. 

Have a great day!


----------



## Tony Dismukes

jobo said:


> I've made much the same point, if you cant,BETTER defend yourself after learning ma, they there is something wrong with either you or it.
> 
> but after that its very difficult to define or test, as there is no standard maist and no standard attacker.
> 
> but if you apply a statistical approach, then 80 % of the male adult population isn't very fit ie strong, fast good cardio and balance and reactions. In fact 50% of them are notably unfit. If you are up there, in the top 20 30 40 % of the population. Then skills associated with say a yellow belt, should be more than adequate to defend yourself against the vast majority of people, so that's a year max .
> 
> if your lacking in the. Fitness department and come up against someone who is not lacking, then you will have a problem no matter how long you have been studying


Good points.

I have some new students come in who have no martial arts experience, but they are strong, fast, coordinated, aggressive, mentally tough, and they may have been in fights before or grown up wrestling with their siblings. These guys won't necessarily become masters overnight, but they don't take long to develop reliable skills they could use in a fight.

I have other new students come in who are physically timid, out of shape, out of touch with their own bodies, and have a hard time not tripping over their own feet when they drill techniques. These students take much longer to develop usable skills. (For the record, I was one of these students when I started out. It took a long time before I got to the point of sparring professional fighters.)

For self-defense purposes, it's important to realize that you aren't training to defeat the average out-of-shape couch potato who has never been in a fight. Those guys aren't so likely to be attacking you on the street. Being able to beat half the population doesn't mean much when half the population can't fight. If you have to defend yourself, it's more likely that you're dealing with a young guy who has too much testosterone and a history of violence.


----------



## oftheherd1

Tez3 said:


> Yep, it's drunk here before going to bed, some say it's to help you sleep but as you say it's sweet so we know why people are actually drinking it before bedtime!
> 
> Cornish ( and Devon) cream is delicious. Clotted cream - Wikipedia



My mother was raised so far back in the Ozark mountains I don't think they WWI was on until they happened to hear it was over (not really ).  But they did learn not to waste any food.  She learned to drink clabbered milk, in fact enjoyed it.  What is Clabbered Milk? (with pictures) says


> Clabbered milk is milk which has been allowed to naturally sour, becoming thick, tangy, and very rich. It is often sold in grocery stores, where it is called buttermilk. It is among a family of cultured dairy products which have been consumed for centuries, and in many regions of the world, this sour milk is a very popular drink and cooking ingredient. Many stores sell a pasteurized version, and it is also possible to make this ingredient at home.
> 
> The word "clabber" comes from the Irish language, and it means "to thicken." If clabbered milk is allowed to thicken long enough, it becomes clotted cream, a popular spread from scones in many parts of the United Kingdom and Ireland. This cultured milk can also be drunk straight, plain or flavored, and it is especially popular in the American South over ice. Because clabbered milk is more shelf-stable than regular milk, it is often the milk product of choice in areas with spotty or no refrigeration, and for much of the world, fresh milk is a relatively recent delicacy.



But it wasn't considered butter milk, but more or less spoiled (or clabbered) milk.  As a kid I didn't like either clabbered milk or butter milk.  Butter milk was a slightly cloudy liquid by-product of churning butter (which I, being youngest, got to do often .  Both my parents liked butter milk.  I just liked the home made butter.

OK, back to ... what was it?


----------



## Danny T

Juany118 said:


> I was more referring to his "out of the gate" pro wins.  Usually you need to "find your legs"


Well his first several pro fights were against very low level fighters. 1st pro fight was a scheduled 4 round against another pro debut fighter who only had a few amateur fights and retired with a 1 & 5 pro record. Second fight was another scheduled 4 rd vs Reggie Sanders. This was Sanders 3 pro fight (1&1) at the time and ended up with a pro record of 12-47-4. Floyd's 3rd fight was against Jerry Cooper who was put on the canvas with a Jab in the first round.His 4th was vs Edgar Ayala. Was Ayala's debut who retired with a 1 & 3 record. 
Wasn't until his 6th fight that he fought a winning record fighter who was planning on and did retire after his fight with Mayweather. My point is Floyd's pro career was brought up slowly and vs low level fighters or fighters beyond their prime allowing him to build his wining resume' as he was finding his pro legs which was smart of his camp.


----------



## oftheherd1

MasterArtMason said:


> There is also a psychology to all this. Some people do not need a martial art to be effective on the street or in a ring. Plus as someone previously stated there is a difference between proficiency and mastery.
> 
> Have a great day!



I don't know as I would classify it as psychology so much as physiology and experience.  But no doubt, as you said in your 2nd sentence, and as Tony Dismukes also stated, some come to martial arts better equipped to learn and fight that others.  I was also one that started martial arts class with 3 feet and half a mind.

You might want to go to the Meet and Greet sub forum and tell us a little about yourself.


----------



## Tez3

JR 137 said:


> I’ll excuse you for not knowing the movie, being British all.



It's not a kids drink here though, it's for oldies and sickies. It wouldn't be drunk through the day as it's a 'bedtime' drink like cocoa ( unlike hot chocolate though which can be drunk anytime)


----------



## Tarrycat

Tez3 said:


> Yep, it's drunk here before going to bed, some say it's to help you sleep but as you say it's sweet so we know why people are actually drinking it before bedtime!
> 
> Cornish ( and Devon) cream is delicious. Clotted cream - Wikipedia



I will have a look at the cornish cream! 

It could be sweet, or perhaps my grandmother just abused our sugar intake at that time... I would go with the latter.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tarrycat said:


> I will have a look at the cornish cream!
> 
> It could be sweet, or perhaps my grandmother just abused our sugar intake at that time... I would go with the latter.


In the US, it's almost always (in my experience) just called "clotted cream" (as the linked article indicated), so some variation of that might be the standard in SA, too.

Knowing the Brits (and Americans) there's probably some difference between Cornish cream and Devon (Devonish??) cream of which we in America are largely unaware.


----------



## Tez3

https://food.avclub.com/the-enduring-appeal-of-nightcaps-ovaltine-and-horlicks-1798261075


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> In the US, it's almost always (in my experience) just called "clotted cream" (as the linked article indicated), so some variation of that might be the standard in SA, too.
> 
> Knowing the Brits (and Americans) there's probably some difference between Cornish cream and Devon (Devonish??) cream of which we in America are largely unaware.



Not 'Devonish'! it's Devonshire.

Devon clotted cream is less yellow because there's less carotene in the grass in Devon. Cornish clotted cream is a holder of the EU's Protection of Designated Origin. In the USA clotted cream is designated as a butter by all accounts (?).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Not 'Devonish'! it's Devonshire.
> 
> Devon clotted cream is less yellow because there's less carotene in the grass in Devon. Cornish clotted cream is a holder of the EU's Protection of Designated Origin. In the USA clotted cream is designated as a butter by all accounts (?).


I don't know what it's designated as here - I just know I have to buy it in quite small jars, because I will eat however much is in the jar once I open it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

oftheherd1 said:


> I've seen thread drift, but from how long it takes to learn martial arts (Black belts guaranteed in a month, two weeks if you double the fee) to how to bake biscuits?
> 
> And you didn't ask, but I like my doughy.





CB Jones said:


> How bout we tie it all in....
> 
> My son has trained for 8 years and received his youth blackbelt in 7 years (officially he is still a 9th kyu though) and his Sensei is good friends with Demura who a couple years ago gave my son an Autographed copy of his Book on the Sai and although we like Powdermilk Biscuits we prefer Homemade Sweet Potato Bisquits more.





gpseymour said:


> I don't know what it's designated as here - I just know I have to buy it in quite small jars, because I will eat however much is in the jar once I open it.



And to make sure we stay on track...Clotted cream probably goes quite well on Sweet Potato Biscuits, too.


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> I don't know what it's designated as here - I just know I have to buy it in quite small jars, because I will eat however much is in the jar once I open it.



Is it this? Cream  &  Cheese

Noticed they also had this Candy (Chocolate Bar & Boxes)   Galaxy chocolate. nom nom!


----------



## ShortBridge

Look. It doesn't take years to become an expert on diary products.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Is it this? Cream  &  Cheese
> 
> Noticed they also had this Candy (Chocolate Bar & Boxes)   Galaxy chocolate. nom nom!


This - from World Market.







The Double Devon Cream Butter in your link sounds intriguing.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShortBridge said:


> Look. It doesn't take years to become an expert on diary products.


Especially if you keep a journal (about your clotted cream, I presume).


----------



## Tarrycat

gpseymour said:


> In the US, it's almost always (in my experience) just called "clotted cream" (as the linked article indicated), so some variation of that might be the standard in SA, too.
> 
> Knowing the Brits (and Americans) there's probably some difference between Cornish cream and Devon (Devonish??) cream of which we in America are largely unaware.



Clotted cream sounds very familiar... In the pictures it looks almost like the colour of Buttermilk. I know a lot of people drink it here, it's very high in calcium. 

Have you ever been to SA?


----------



## Tarrycat

Okay, nevermind. It's only known as Cornish cream &/or Devonshire cream.


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> This - from World Market.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Double Devon Cream Butter in your link sounds intriguing.



Ah that's very nice but it's not clotted cream, it's double cream nor is it from Devon but Somerset the next country over!

Clotted cream has a thick crust on the top and is very thick, spreadable in fact. 




This is the Devon one, below is the Cornish one.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tarrycat said:


> Have you ever been to SA?


I have not. I've worked with some folks from SA, and heard a bit from them. I know very little about it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Ah that's very nice but it's not clotted cream, it's double cream nor is it from Devon but Somerset the next country over!
> 
> Clotted cream has a thick crust on the top and is very thick, spreadable in fact.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the Devon one, below is the Cornish one.


That stuff is spreadable (far too thick to pour - somewhat thicker than Greek style yogurt), though has no crust on it. How is the flavor/texture different?


----------



## Tony Dismukes

ShortBridge said:


> Look. It doesn't take years to become an expert on diary products.


I don't know. Seem like a lot of time and work to me.


----------



## Tarrycat

gpseymour said:


> I have not. I've worked with some folks from SA, and heard a bit from them. I know very little about it.



That's awesome! 

As long as you're not under the impression that we ride Lions, & that all of the wild animals roam free in our streets... 

I highly doubt that, since you're a very knowledgeable individual. Some Americans actually imagined South Africa to be like that... Someone shared the story with us after their visit in the States. 

We know a bunch of Americans as well through the Mormon church.


----------



## Tarrycat

Tez3 said:


> Ah that's very nice but it's not clotted cream, it's double cream nor is it from Devon but Somerset the next country over!
> 
> Clotted cream has a thick crust on the top and is very thick, spreadable in fact.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the Devon one, below is the Cornish one.



It resembles baked cheesecake a little... . Do you prefer it to normal whipped cream?


----------



## Tez3

ShortBridge said:


> Look. It doesn't take years to become an expert on diary products.



Actually it does, dairy that is. 



Tarrycat said:


> Clotted cream sounds very familiar... In the pictures it looks almost like the colour of Buttermilk. I know a lot of people drink it here, it's very high in calcium.
> 
> Have you ever been to SA?



You can't drink clotted cream, you can spread it though.





Tarrycat said:


> It resembles baked cheesecake a little... . Do you prefer it to normal whipped cream?



Whipped cream is different, clotted cream is much denser and very delicious. More like butter than cheesecake.


----------



## jobo

MasterArtMason said:


> There is also a psychology to all this. Some people do not need a martial art to be effective on the street or in a ring. Plus as someone previously stated there is a difference between proficiency and mastery.
> 
> Have a great day!


effective fighting, is a relatively straight forward process, it takes a good bit of fitness and some skills, i have decided that ma can complicate things to the point that you have to many options and not enough practise in any of them to be effective.in the short term, we spent last night doing techniques that i will never ever use. You had you oppoinent in an arm bar and you put them on your shoulder like a sack of coal and then transferred into a head twist. Eeerrrr.


if i have my opoinent in a arm bar, I'm either breaking his arm or kicking his knee out, or kneeing him the face.. The instructor made it look good, i made it look like,a,drunken barn dance and started doing something else , which partner to start complain( again)


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tarrycat said:


> That's awesome!
> 
> As long as you're not under the impression that we ride Lions, & that all of the wild animals roam free in our streets...
> 
> I highly doubt that, since you're a very knowledgeable individual. Some Americans actually imagined South Africa to be like that... Someone shared the story with us after their visit in the States.
> 
> We know a bunch of Americans as well through the Mormon church.


Of course you don't ride lions. That's what giraffes are for.


----------



## CB Jones

gpseymour said:


> Of course you don't ride lions. That's what giraffes are for.



How do you put the bridle on them?


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> Of course you don't ride lions. That's what giraffes are for.



That's ostriches. My grandfather grew up on an ostrich farm in South Africa, they used to ride them. The farms went out of business at the decline in wearing ostrich feathers in hats and fans.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

CB Jones said:


> How do you put the bridle on them?


Step ladder. Attached to stilts.


----------



## Tarrycat

CB Jones said:


> How do you put the bridle on them?



I'm wondering the exact same thing, actually...


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> That's ostriches. My grandfather grew up on an ostrich farm in South Africa, they used to ride them. The farms went out of business at the decline in wearing ostrich feathers in hats and fans.


Nah, you stand on the ostrich if you don't have a stepladder to put the bridle on your giraffe.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

By the way, what the hell happened to this thread???


----------



## CB Jones

gpseymour said:


> By the way, what the hell happened to this thread???



Just a little drift......


----------



## Tarrycat

Ok well, people like Kevin Richardson will playfully ride his lions by climbing on top of them & cuddling them, but that's about as far as "lion-riding" goes. 

My father's friend has a lion farm where you can walk the lions, but everything happens strictly on farms.


----------



## ShortBridge

gpseymour said:


> By the way, what the hell happened to this thread???



This thread was doomed to begin with. Ill-conceived at best. The de-rail(s) has been the better part of it by a fair margin.


----------



## Tez3

ShortBridge said:


> This thread was doomed to begin with. Ill-conceived at best. *The de-rail(s) has been the better part of it by a fair margin*.



They quite often are, it's because we communicate properly and get to know each other better. In turn that means when we discuss actual martial arts we see each other as being more friendly, more 'human' rather than just a user name who disagrees. It's why it's worth letting some threads, such as this one, run with the off topic bits. The tone of the thread has changed to something similar to a conversation you'd find friends having in a pub or café, if it gets back on track it should stay that way. If not at least people would have had a smile from the off topic bits.


----------



## oftheherd1

CB Jones said:


> How do you put the bridle on them?



Oh come on!  Everybody knows you stand on the elephant's back.


----------



## oftheherd1

Tez3 said:


> Actually it does, dairy that is.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't drink clotted cream, you can spread it though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whipped cream is different, clotted cream is much denser and very delicious. More like butter than cheesecake.



I thought somebody would have brought up veggie mate by now.


----------



## CB Jones

oftheherd1 said:


> Oh come on!  Everybody knows you stand on the elephant's back.



Of course....what was I thinking


----------



## jobo

Tony Dismukes said:


> For self-defense purposes, it's important to realize that you aren't training to defeat the average out-of-shape couch potato who has never been in a fight. Those guys aren't so likely to be attacking you on the street. Being able to beat half the population doesn't mean much when half the population can't fight. If you have to defend yourself, it's more likely that you're dealing with a young guy who has too much testosterone and a history of violence.



I'm not sure that's true?, but of course we have no data at all to go on. From my observations of the fights i got into and a lot more I've seen, then its not at all in common to see unfit uncoordinated people fighting each other, and occasionally me. I think you can build a super bogey man who might attack you, when its far more likely to be some less than able bozo who is having a bad day

you just have to cut the % by being the best you can and then take what comes

i had a run in a couple of weeks back some guy who was far bigger than me in dispute over who had right of way ( me), who was confident that his,size would intimidate   me, when it dawned on him that i wasn't at all opposed to fighting him, he left quickly, unless he trains harder than me, that seems unlikely as he was three stone over weight, then I'm almost certainly fitter and stronger than he was


----------



## ShortBridge

oftheherd1 said:


> I thought somebody would have brought up veggie mate by now.



Vegemite is a yeast product. This thread is about dairy products.

Don't take us off-topic, man.


----------



## JR 137

ShortBridge said:


> Vegemite is a yeast product. This thread is about dairy products.
> 
> Don't take us off-topic, man.


Do you come from a land down under? 
Where women glow and men plunder.
Can't you hear, can't you hear the thunder?
You better run, you better take cover…


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> Do you come from a land down under?
> Where women glow and men plunder.
> Can't you hear, can't you hear the thunder?
> You better run, you better take cover…


Exactly what goes through my head every time I hear the word vegemite.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

gpseymour said:


> Exactly what goes through my head every time I hear the word vegemite.


For me it always reminds me of vitameatavegamin


----------



## Tez3

jobo said:


> I'm not sure that's true?, but of course we have no data at all to go on. From my observations of the fights i got into and a lot more I've seen, then its not at all in common to see unfit uncoordinated people fighting each other, and occasionally me. I think you can build a super bogey man who might attack you, when its far more likely to be some less than able bozo who is having a bad day
> 
> you just have to cut the % by being the best you can and then take what comes
> 
> i had a run in a couple of weeks back some guy who was far bigger than me in dispute over who had right of way ( me), who was confident that his,size would intimidate   me, when it dawned on him that i wasn't at all opposed to fighting him, he left quickly, unless he trains harder than me, that seems unlikely as he was three stone over weight, then I'm almost certainly fitter and stronger than he was



Usually alcohol is involved. It can make skinny guys think they are Arnie, unfit guys think they are MMA pros and is more often than not the reason behind fights, actually it's behind a great deal of violence and criminal behaviour.


----------



## oftheherd1

ShortBridge said:


> Vegemite is a yeast product. This thread is about dairy products.
> 
> Don't take us off-topic, man.



Oh my!  All these years and now you tell me it isn't a dairy product!!?

Woe is me.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

jobo said:


> I'm not sure that's true?, but of course we have no data at all to go on. From my observations of the fights i got into and a lot more I've seen, then its not at all in common to see unfit uncoordinated people fighting each other, and occasionally me. I think you can build a super bogey man who might attack you, when its far more likely to be some less than able bozo who is having a bad day



Yeah, but those are typically the fights you can walk away from. I've never had a situation where an un-fit, un-coordinated, non-fighter challenged me and I wasn't able to avoid any sort of physical confrontation. Actual predators tend to be a bit tougher on average.


----------



## jobo

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, but those are typically the fights you can walk away from. I've never had a situation where an un-fit, un-coordinated, non-fighter challenged me and I wasn't able to avoid any sort of physical confrontation. Actual predators tend to be a bit tougher on average.


well a few points, one the benefits of ma are that you can choose to avoid confrontation or not, you can usually make them back down, BUT these people are quote likely to throw a punch at you, at which point the confrontation has,started and therefore can't be avoided AND I'm not sure what you mean by predators in this context, people who are trying to rob you are a different cat that those who have spontainiously  decided to harm you


----------



## webmaster786

life is not a war, so not everyone teaches us how to fight


----------



## Elbowgrease

I think, Master is a pursuit, not a destination. 
It is always ongoing. And it can take a lot of time, and that's really pretty reasonable. You just can't rush some things. A person might learn how to do something in an hour. Doesn't mean they can do it well. That takes time. Takes more time to ingrain it, and more time to understand what's happening and even more time to really understand why to do the thing in the first place. 
I've been training in Tai Chi Chuan almost ten years now, it's only over the last year or so that things seem to have really changed. Little changes throughout that time, but changes that currently seem significant only recently. 
Patience is something that's really important, and pretty intense. And it doesn't come fast. 
Maybe the old timers did things PAINFULLY slow to drive off the impatient hot heads. 
And something my Sifu used to say,
I'm not here to teach you how to fight. You want to fight, go get a bat. It's a lot faster and easier. Then you can go to pelican Bay and fight every single day. I'm here to teach you how to move.


----------



## Brmty2002

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an excellent fighter in a relatively short amount of time.
> 
> When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> PS
> 
> I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."




It took me 5 years to get my black belt. many years of sweating over a mat, not just filled with my own sweat, but others before me. some students don't stay for more than 2 lessons, some I have trained with for life. 5 years of training and or experience, take your pick, against some guy who his been there for 3 months or whatever, who is wiser in the art? Who has spent years getting that kata just right?

in  the end, if you want something bad enough, you will spend any amount of time to get it.


----------



## Paul_D

jobo said:


> I'm not sure that's true?, but of course we have no data at all to go on.


What makes you say that?  The Crime Statistics of England and Wales are ridiculously detailed, showing us the sex, age range, and number of attackers for all recorded violent crime where the victim was able to give that information.


----------



## jobo

Paul_D said:


> What makes you say that?  The Crime Statistics of England and Wales are ridiculously detailed, showing us the sex, age range, and number of attackers for all recorded violent crime where the victim was able to give that information.


i have no idea what post i was refering to and I'm not wading through 25 pages to find it


----------



## jobo

Paul_D said:


> What makes you say that?  The Crime Statistics of England and Wales are ridiculously detailed, showing us the sex, age range, and number of attackers for all recorded violent crime where the victim was able to give that information.


found it, i said we have no data as to how skilled the various people were in fights, if your saying the crime stats have this info, then post it


----------

