# Uechi-ryu Question



## crbnwdn (Aug 31, 2002)

I am thinking of beginning to study with a Dojo that teaches the Uechi-ryu style Karate, along with Iaido and Aikido.  Is there anyone studying the Uechi-ryu style who could share with me its charateristics and how it compares with other styles of Karate or Kung Fu.  Below are suppose to be the credentials of the Sensei for both the Uechi-ryu and Iaido classes.


I teach Muso Jikiden Eishinryu Iaido, in which I am a nanadan (7th degree "black belt",instructor) and have studied for 20 years, 10 of which were in Japan under swordmaster, Noboru Yamashita; and Uechiryu karate, in which I am a godan (5th degree black belt) and have studied for 33 years, one of which was under the great master, Seiyu Shinjo.


Any cooments are appreciated.


Thank you.


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## arnisador (Aug 31, 2002)

If you do a Search for Uechi in this forum you'll find a number of hits.

I studied Uechi-ryu some years back in Providence, RI and found it very interesting. It uses the index-knuckle punch and very circular blocks. Its blocks I found especially effective. It's got a tiger influence and of all major forms of karate is the one most similar to Southern Chinese kung fu (from which all forms of karate principally descend) and one of the softest. It has a quick, snappy feel, it fights mostly forward-facing, and it does a fairly soft Sanchin. The front kick is done with the toe knuckles which actually works out well if you have shoes on. There are a fair number of spearhand and leopard (half-fist) strikes but the focus is on the phoenix-eye fist. It also has some body conditioning/sensitivity exercises.

It's a legitimate, traditional style of Okinawan karate, and in fact is one of the four major styles of Okinawn karate. It's also a relatively newer style of karate, having been brought to Okinawa less than a hundred years ago and modified into a form of karate by the son of the person who brought it back even more recently.

There are several variants of Uechi-ryu nowadays, including Shohei-ryu and Pangainoon-ryu. Some teach only the three kata of the original kung fu system and others teach those plus the five added after the founder's death by his son.

You'll find lots of info. on it on the web; George Mattson's site is a good one. Allen Dollar is another one to check. There are books and videos available for the system.

Ask in the Sword Arts forum about iaido but the style you mention is a traditional and well-known one. I have also studied iaido and it's a lot of fun.


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## fissure (Aug 31, 2002)

Can't help you with any of these MA styles , but is 20 yrs. enough time to reach 7th Dan?Just a question.Maybe sword stuff is different than other Japanese arts.


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## Chiduce (Sep 4, 2002)

Maybe the Nanadan 7th Degree was a misprint. Shichidan means 7 or 7th Degree Black Belt.  This is the first time that i have seen or heard of Nana as a japanese number. Nana or Nano is american and means 9, i thought! 20 years training is enough for 10th Dan Ranking. Some systems rank 4th Dan and up as Master.
 Those whom are founders of their own respective martial art's styles/systems are really 10th Dans/Soke/Headasters, and can promote to 10th Dan in their style; though they may not have 10 years training experience.  So, exists the martial art's political side! 
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by crbnwdn _
> 
> *  I teach Muso Jikiden Eishinryu Iaido, in which I am a nanadan (7th degree "black belt",instructor) and have studied for 20 years, 10 of which were in Japan under swordmaster, Noboru Yamashita; and Uechiryu karate, in which I am a godan (5th degree black belt) and have studied for 33 years, one of which was under the great master, Seiyu Shinjo.
> *




If he studied with these people his is legit.
I have met Shinjo and he is one of the more famous Uechi teachers in Okinawa.


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> *  Maybe the Nanadan 7th Degree was a misprint. Shichidan means 7 or 7th Degree Black Belt.  This is the first time that i have seen or heard of Nana as a japanese number. *



Nanadan is correct, just as yondan 4th dan is used . Only foreigners that are unfamiliar with Japanese language and customs use "shichidan." 

There are two ways to say the number 7 & 4 in Japanese.
7 = shichi or nana (depends on the situation and what you are counting.)
4 = shi or yon ( same as above)

Why is it Nanadan instead of Shichidan?

When counting from 1 to 10 if you use shi=4 then you use shichi=7 and if you use yon=4 then you use Nana=7.
Since shi = 4 is the same sound as shi meaning death it is not used in this case, since shi is not used shichi is also not used.



> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> * Those whom are founders of their own respective martial art's styles/systems are really 10th Dans/Soke/Headasters, and can promote to 10th Dan in their style; though they may not have 10 years training experience.  So, exists the martial art's political side!
> Sincerely, In Humility;
> Chiduce! *



10 dan does not equal Soke and vice versa. Just because someone is a 10th dan does not make them a Soke. 
Case in point. The head of the Katori Shinto Ryu school of sword (Japan's oldest documented sword school) has no dan rank and no training in the art. He is by heir the Soke of that style as has been all members of his family for several hundred years. 
The head instructor is Mr. Otake.
Soke in Japan are more often than not the family heir or top student of a style and inherit it upon the masters retirement or death.
Also of note: On those extremely rare occasions when there is a Soke of a style, the system uses the menkyo system rather than the dan system.

Note: 

Having lived in Japan for over 14 years and attended literally 100's of traditional martial arts events held by such groups as the Kobudo Shinkokai and other groups of equal caliber I have not seen as many "Soke" here in Japan as I have on the Internet websites from America and Europe. 
Basically the west has turned the term Soke into a big joke. Some "dipsticks" in the west heard the term "Soke" and wanted to use it as a marketing tool to make themselves seem more legit and higher rank than their competitors.
I am also of the opinion that any westerner that calls himself a "Soke" is pretty much of a joke, especially since most of them seem extremely young and inexperienced for such a title. 

I know of only one westerner that trained for many years in Japan and was offered the title but turned it down because he was moving to America.
Also of note, a Soke in Japan will never refer to himself as a Soke in spoken and not normally in written form either.


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## Chiduce (Sep 5, 2002)

I see your point  here. I was referring only to the Shodai Soke in the founding of their new system; upon receiving the title from a governing Soke Council/ organization etc,. Though, i clearly understand where you are coming from in your post. Even though i personally can promote within my own system to the rank of say honorary 8th-10th dan; i dont consider myself a soke or self proclaimed 10th Dan/ Shodai Soke. I will leave that up to the Councils and other governing organizations. Thank you for the nanadan explanation. 
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!


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## Chiduce (Sep 5, 2002)

RyuShiKan;
 When you get a chance; check out the new DKKC News, and 1st Photo Page link at my website. 
 Sincerely, In Humility
 Chiduce!


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## Kirk (Sep 5, 2002)

I no NOTHING about this subject, but a buddy of mine who's a
shodan in Iaido and Kendo, was reading over my shoulder, 
and asked me to post this here:



> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *The head of the Katori Shinto Ryu school of sword (Japan's oldest documented sword school) *



Sort of.

They were the first to register their style. That doesn't mean the 
style started when it was registered - they (and many other 
styles) had been in existence long before any of the styles were 
registered.

Tenshin Shoden Katori Ryu is more than just a sword school. The 
style also incorporates the bo (long staff), jo (short staff), and 
probably several other weapons - maybe naginata (long staff 
with blade on end) and yari (spear).

TSKR is interesting in that the sword techniques are for use 
against a person in armor and the attack points are the weak 
points in the armor (underside of wrists, armpit, throat, cutting off 
toes, etc...).


Check this link:

http://www.aikikai.ie/ksrireland/

Click on the About KSR link.


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> *I see your point  here. I was referring only to the Shodai Soke in the founding of their new system; upon receiving the title from a governing Soke Council/ organization etc,. *



"Soke Councils" are also a western invention and bogus. 
If westerners are going to use Japanese terms and different aspects of  Japanese Martial culture they should first know what they are.


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> They were the first to register their style. That doesn't mean the
> ...



As a former student of the style I am rather familiar with the history of it.
Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu as I stated above is the oldest "documented" sword school.
The Kashima Shinto Ryu school is actually considered by many to be the oldest........they just can't prove it because of the lack of "documentation".



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *Tenshin Shoden Katori Ryu is more than just a sword school. The
> style also incorporates the bo (long staff), jo (short staff), and
> ...



Actually it is considered a "sword" school because the weapon they concentrate on is the sword.
They do use other weapons but don't teach them per say.
Other weapons are only used as to practice sword techniques against them and are not taught "battle usage" as with the sword. 
For example they do not train bo vs naginata or any other combination of weapons, it is always sword vs some other weapon. The training is done in 2 man kata sets. Each person has certain moves and strikes and are done for each weapon attacking a swordsman. All the kata consist of sword vs bo, naginata and so on.  
Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu also teaches "numeral divination" and some other odd things.  

The website photos were taken at my old dojo, where I studied under the late Sugino Yoshio.

Interesting note: 
Sugino Yoshio did the fight choreography for the movie "The 7 Samurai"


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> *RyuShiKan;
> When you get a chance; check out the new DKKC News, and 1st Photo Page link at my website.
> ...




I treid to got to your website and all I got was this:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry:  Website butokutsururyu is not published for public viewing. If you are the site owner, login and publish your site under Site Options. 



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## Chiduce (Sep 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


 That site has been merged with the Consortium site. Just click on the www. beside my profile on this post and go to the photo page  and the DKKC News page .  Or use this  http://www.chiduce.swsites.net
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!


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## Chiduce (Sep 5, 2002)

Sorry for the confusion.  The south west sites url is now the major site to all other links. I need to edit my url for this forum!
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> * That site has been merged with the Consortium site. Just click on the www. beside my profile on this post and go to the photo page  and the DKKC News page .  Or use this  http://www.chiduce.swsites.net
> Sincerely, In Humility;
> Chiduce! *



OK.......and what am I supposed to be looking for?


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## Chiduce (Sep 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *
> 
> OK.......and what am I supposed to be looking for? *


 Photo Page and DKKC News. The links are on the left hand side of the page!
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> * Photo Page and DKKC News. The links are on the left hand side of the page!
> Sincerely, In Humility;
> Chiduce! *




Ok.....I saw them and what specifically am I looking for on those pages?


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## Chiduce (Sep 5, 2002)

Nothing much really; i just thought that you could get a little more understanding of our organization it's workings and myself fro the information on thoses pages.
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> *Nothing much really; i just thought that you could get a little more understanding of our organization it's workings and myself fro the information on thoses pages.
> Sincerely, In Humility;
> Chiduce! *




I think I have a pretty good understanding of what your organization is about.


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 5, 2002)

Getting back on topic.
Here are some Uechi Ryu Links:


http://www.uechi-ryu.com/

http://www.uechi-ryu.org/


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## arnisador (Sep 5, 2002)

I assume that these are typically formed for pecuniary reasons.

But I've often heard that when Tatsuo Shimabuku formed Isshin-ryu he "followed tradition" by appealing to other (grand)masters for permission to form his art and their approval of him as a new head of system--that he felt he needed to do that to form a new style. The story is that he did a demo. for them and spoke with them and they conferred and in essence granted him the right/distinction of being a head of a system.

I haven't heard it of any other founder so I am a bit suspicious, but is there any such precedent? Whether or not it was true of Isshin-ryu is somewhat incidental.


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *I assume that these are typically formed for pecuniary reasons.
> 
> But I've often heard that when Tatsuo Shimabuku formed Isshin-ryu he "followed tradition" by appealing to other (grand)masters for permission to form his art and their approval of him as a new head of system--that he felt he needed to do that to form a new style.*



I have never heard that story. I have heard that he formed his own style and pissed some people off. 
Who knows what the real story is, I don't. I wasn't there. 
I would be interested in who he gave this supposed demo for though.



> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *I haven't heard it of any other founder so I am a bit suspicious, but is there any such precedent? Whether or not it was true of Isshin-ryu is somewhat incidental. *



I know of several "dan factories" in Japan that sell dan ranks in this manner but they don't sell "Soke" certificates. 
In fact if some one was to come over here with a Soke certificate from one of those Soke Council things they would be laughed right out of town.
Lofty belt ranks (i.e. 9th, 10th dan), Soke-ships, and other bloated titles from young western martial arts people are the reason why many asian instructors have little or no respect for them. The reason being they don't know what the titles really mean, and haven't put in the time to earn the rank. 
To be quite honest, in Japan I have not met that many Karateka, Judoka, Kendoka or Aikidoka that have ranks over 7th dan. The ones that are ranked over 7th dan are usually senior citizens.


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## tamiko (Sep 6, 2002)

crbmwdn:

I see you have asked some questions about Uechi-ryu.  I have studied this style for a few years and wondered if I could help with any questions you might have.  I don't particularly wish to discuss politics (I'm not a politician) but if I can answer any other questions I would be please to do so.


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## arnisador (Nov 19, 2002)

To *crbnwdn*: Did you ever start Uechi-ryu?

To *tamiko*: Which of the subsystems/organizations of Uechi-ryu do you study?


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## tamiko (Nov 20, 2002)

Hello Arnisador.  I am a member of the IUKF (International Uechi-ryu Karate Federation) and I study Uechi-ryu.   I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "sub-system or organization of Uechi-ryu".  Could you give more clarification or let me know if I've answered your question?  Thanks.


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## arnisador (Nov 20, 2002)

I know that Uechi-ryu has experienced some splintering--Pangainoon-ryu, Shohei-ryu--and wondered if you were in one of those.


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## tamiko (Nov 20, 2002)

Arnisador, no, I am not affiliated with any splinter groups.  My dojo traces its lineage directly back to Okinawa under the direction of the founder of Uechi-ryu, Kanbun Uechi.

I have made many friends all over the world who are in different sub-sets of Uechi-ryu  We have developed a respect for each other regardless of our sub-sets or affiliations.  I've found that we all seem to share a deep fulfillment and enjoyment from the study of MA, regardless of organization or rank or style.

I think a lot of organizations experience splintering (and for many reasons).  Personally, I just like to work out and learn -  not really interested in the politics.  When you're sweating it out in class somehow that doesn't seem so important.


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## Reprobate (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *As a former student of the style I am rather familiar with the history of it.
> Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu as I stated above is the oldest "documented" sword school.
> The Kashima Shinto Ryu school is actually considered by many to be the oldest........they just can't prove it because of the lack of "documentation".*


As a current student, I can tell you that the TSKSR is not the oldest because it registered earlier than the other schools. The documented fact is that the founder of Kashima Shinto Ryu trained under the founder of Katori Shinto Ryu.



> *They do use other weapons but don't teach them per say.
> Other weapons are only used as to practice sword techniques against them and are not taught "battle usage" as with the sword.
> For example they do not train bo vs naginata or any other combination of weapons, it is always sword vs some other weapon. The training is done in 2 man kata sets. Each person has certain moves and strikes and are done for each weapon attacking a swordsman. All the kata consist of sword vs bo, naginata and so on.
> Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu also teaches "numeral divination" and some other odd things.*


-students are taught the handling of the bo and naginata prior to performing kata against sword. Profisciency would be adequate for 'battle usage'.
-there are 4 omote kenjutsu kata, 6 omote bo kata and 4 omote naginata kata. Beginners have to learn more bo kata than kenjutsu kata and an equal number of naginata kata.
-advanced pupils are taught bo versus bo kata. These kata are not generally shown to beginners or at demonstrations.
-numeral divination is not taught


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## angrywhitepajamas (Sep 4, 2003)

Tamiko,
amen about the "subsect and rank".

Are there any IUKF schools in california??


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## Charles Mahan (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by crbnwdn _
> *I am thinking of beginning to study with a Dojo that teaches the Uechi-ryu style Karate, along with Iaido and Aikido.  Is there anyone studying the Uechi-ryu style who could share with me its charateristics and how it compares with other styles of Karate or Kung Fu.  Below are suppose to be the credentials of the Sensei for both the Uechi-ryu and Iaido classes.
> 
> 
> ...



I have trained with Ray-sensei for more than 6 years.  Ray-sensei is indeed a Nandan Kyoshi in MJER Iaido.   I have had the good fortune of training with several of Ray-sensei's sempai from the Chiba dojo at various seminars in Denton.  A few years ago about 8 of our students accompanied Ray-sensei to Chiba, Japan for an extended training trip.  They were scheduled for a private training session with Fukui-soke, who unfortunately passed away a couple of months before the trip.

I have also had the oppurtunity to train with the Vice President of the Zen Nippon Iaido Renmei in California this past 4th of July weekend.  Ray-sensei is quite thoroughly legit.  Feel free to enquire at http://www.e-budo.com in the sword arts forum.  This is perhaps the largest collection o koryu sword folks online.

As for Uechi, I don't know that much about that side of things as I'm not in that class.  I do know that Ray-sensei tested for 5th dan in Okinawa during the same trip that I mentioned above.  I believe all his shodan candidates are tested by a representative from Okinawa.  For more info I suggest you check the dojo website at http://www.dentondojo.com


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## arnisador (Dec 20, 2003)

From here:



> the 4 associations of Uechi-ryu: Kenyukai, Soke (IUKF), Shohei-ryu and Pangai-noon karate-do. Each one offers just a tad bit of a different perspective to the 8 kata that make up Uechi-ryu.



A Uechi-ryu page:
http://uechi.layer-7.de/perl-bin/createHTML.perl?TXT=index&LANG=de&FRAME=



> Uechiryu Karate since 1942 has grown faster than any other art of Karate in Okinawa.


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## arnisador (Feb 13, 2006)

Here's a Uechi site with fora and articles:
http://www.uechiryu.ca/


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