# Defense Against Mace



## Yoshiyahu (Jan 19, 2009)

When I was younger I used Mace as a Offensive weapon. In other words some idiot wanted to fight me. I would use mace to injure him so I could just pumpel his face with a barage of punches while he chokes on his tears. Also I realize now that an attacker can also use mace as way to mug you or rape some unsuspecting female. 

I was woundering what defenses do you guys know of against an attacker with mace?

Like for instance you got the streaming mace similiar to what police use and you also have the mace that mist and spreads into the air burning your eyes and throat and face if it makes contact with you.

How do you guys defend against mace...

I seen on discovery channel that some branches of Military have exercises where they build up an immunity for mace by exposure?

Do you guys practice anything similiar?

What are some defensive or offensive ways to protect against a mace attack?


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## profesormental (Jan 20, 2009)

Greetings.

I'm sure that OC spray is not in any standard Wing Chun curriculum. 

Here I know of cases where attacks against women were done with the OC spray and then they were raped.

Training to use OC spray is useful, yet it is not that much fun for many people to get sprayed. You can experience it so you know what to expect and be able to think on what to do. This is done in the military and several LEO trainings.

You wouldn't have many students if this was part of the curriculum.


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## tellner (Jan 20, 2009)

I've been sprayed without expecting it. I immediately became extremely "goal oriented" and decided on a particular course of action - getting out of the hold, calling "cut" to the camera people and looking for water to wash my face. If that's your mindset it really isn't that difficult to fight through it.

And this was special "cop only" not for sale to mere civilians stuff.


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## mook jong man (Jan 20, 2009)

There probably isn't a defence against it , apart from hitting them before they can deploy it or stay out of range .


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## Zero (Jan 20, 2009)

Are there any courses offered you can sign up to where you can be sprayed in the face with mace, have taesers fired into you and maybe (at the same time) have your knee caps and elbows hit with telescopic battons?
This could be a seminar worth looking into for you?


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## KamonGuy2 (Jan 20, 2009)

The trouble is that this starts getting into mirky territory

There are some things that you will never be able to prepare for and mace attacks are one of them

Yes you can build up immunity (like the guy from Under Seige 2 lol), but you have to spend a lot of time doing this

More commonly in the UK, criminals were using acid in squeezy bottles to blind people so they could rob them. Like I said, there are always those situations where you will be 'done over' and you cannot prepare for everything

It is like my instructor once said when a student asked him 'what if five guys attack you'. He answered, 'What if? What if a person comes up with a rocket launcher? What if a person comes up with a tank? Or 20 guys?'

The point was that, whilst it is very good to prepare for the worst, there are somethings you just will not be able to stop, especially of your opponent has come prepared

My only advice is to try and make sure that if your opponent has anything in his hands, you drop him as quickly as possible


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## Drac (Jan 20, 2009)

We get sprayed with OC as part of our certification, its not pleasant..Thats one of the reasons I hate to use it, there is always the cross contamination to deal with, even with throwing up our arm to sheild our face as they taught us doesn't help...Building up an immunity to it??? How long would that take???


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## tellner (Jan 20, 2009)

Instead of immunity you might well build up increased sensitivity.

The thing to remember is that if you want to fight through it you will fight through it. It won't incapacitate you if there's something you are dead-set on doing, like taking the canister and putting it somewhere dark and warm. We have the research data. We have the experiments. And it's why groups like ASLET recommend it for "non-compliant but non-violent suspects". That's because it won't stop anyone who is determined not to be stopped.


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## Drac (Jan 20, 2009)

tellner said:


> Instead of immunity you might well build up increased sensitivity.


 
I believe it...I swear I cough and sneeze harder than I did when I first got sprayed...



tellner said:


> That's because it won't stop anyone who is determined not to be stopped.


 
Truth..Had a tall skinny kid last year that attempted to resist arrest and fight 3 of us, 2 king size cops and one regular size one..Finally one of the officers decided to spray the punk..All it did was make him stop of a second or 2 and sit on the sidewalk, then he started all over again...Thank God for a rookie cop that showed up and tossed me his bottle of water so I could rinse my eyes out and continue to help...


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 22, 2009)

I remember one time my Sidai was sprayed with mace by police. They were shocked that 18mm of mace had no effect on him. They were very angry because they were harassing him an he refused to answer thier questions. So they tried to rough him up. But when they spread him he just shook it off...It could be because of his anger an not so much conditioning. I remember one time my cousin had some mace an it spread in her pocket and the whole room was filled with mace...I was a teenager than an it was a totally horrible experience. The second time I was effected by mace was in high school. Some idiot just sprayed it in the air for fun. To watch others choke. lol...the third time was when I was at a club...an  fight broke out. The police sprayed mace into the crowd. This time I didn't receive direct contact so I was virtually unaffected. Or maybe the dosage was just faint. But others around me was acting like they are dying.

But I have seen documentry were special forces build up immunity. 

I was just woundering if anyone else thought about building up immunity...I guess no one does...


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## Flying Crane (Jan 22, 2009)

well, I'd start with hitting the wooden dummy a lot to build up the proper toughening and conditioning of the forearms.  That way when that spiked ball comes swinging down at your head, you might be able to deflect it with a good bong sau.

Then you'd have to hit him with a centerline punch with your other hand, because your first arm will be turned into a horrible mass of bone fragments and hamburger...

oops, sorry, wrong mace...


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## Drac (Jan 22, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> well, I'd start with hitting the wooden dummy a lot to build up the proper toughening and conditioning of the forearms. That way when that spiked ball comes swinging down at your head, you might be able to deflect it with a good bong sau.
> 
> Then you'd have to hit him with a centerline punch with your other hand, because your first arm will be turned into a horrible mass of bone fragments and hamburger...
> 
> oops, sorry, wrong mace...


 

I was wondering when someone was gonna post somthing like this...


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 22, 2009)

Please explain what you mean by this post...the one concerning the wooden dummy or mace?



Drac said:


> I was wondering when someone was gonna post somthing like this...


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## Drac (Jan 22, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Please explain what you mean by this post...the one concerning the wooden dummy or mace?


 
How to condition yourself for attacks and defenses against the Mace..


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## tellner (Jan 23, 2009)

Drac, Drac, that post was full of flail


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## Flying Crane (Jan 23, 2009)

Drac said:


> I was wondering when someone was gonna post somthing like this...


 
ah, I am becoming too predictable...


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 23, 2009)

i am glad you brought it back on track...

Well are there any military men or women who has undergone training to build up a tolerance for Mace?




Flying Crane said:


> ah, I am becoming too predictable...


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 23, 2009)

> The trouble is that this starts getting into mirky territory
> 
> There are some things that you will never be able to prepare for and mace attacks are one of them
> 
> ...


 
Great post. I agree. Was Kevin Chan that instructor? He sounds like a very cool, down to earth type of guy. Does he do any seminars outside England? Preferably in the southern central Europe


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## Tez3 (Jan 23, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> i am glad you brought it back on track...
> 
> Well are there any military men or women who has undergone training to build up a tolerance for Mace?


 
No, I know of no forces that do that....they have gas masks!


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## tellner (Jan 23, 2009)

Drac said:


> We get sprayed with OC as part of our certification, its not pleasant..Thats one of the reasons I hate to use it, there is always the cross contamination to deal with, even with throwing up our arm to sheild our face as they taught us doesn't help...Building up an immunity to it??? How long would that take???


 
I had a long discussion with the head campus police officer back when we taught at a local university. He said that when he was a street cop there were lots of times when he came home and the first words out of his wife's mouth were "Take off your clothes!"


Naturally, that did his ego some good until she said "You got pepper spray on you again."

I've been sprayed by accident. It didn't stop me.
I've been sprayed on purpose as part of training. That was worse because we were just supposed to sit there and experience how awful it was. We couldn't act.
I've been on the edges of situations and gotten misted with the fire-extinguisher style OC. That was unpleasant but not incapacitating.
And I've been hosed down on a bet. The inducement of winning the bet was enough to keep me going even without violent action.
I've seen a few people accidentally spray themselves including one young woman who had it in her pocket and emptied the canister onto her girl-parts when she sat down.  None of them fell down in agony. The gal in question was suddenly extremely motivated to find a shower.
The really telling one was during a demonstration by a pompous self-important cop. He was pushing OC as a dandy defense against rape, robbery and violent assault. He also makes a lot of money doing training courses on the stuff.

I asked if he would use pepper spray if someone were trying to do that to him. Of course not, he said. He'd use a gun and went on about how only "highly trained police officers" should carry guns and the wonders of S-patterns and spray-and-retreat with the spray. Strangely enough he turned down my (private) offer of a fair test. He could use any kind of OC and only OC. I got a wooden knife. Two bucks a cut. Ten bucks a stab. No more than a thousand bucks. 

That was about the time I stopped listening to any *public* advice a police officer gives on self protection. I still take careful notes about what they say in private after a couple beers because that's usually really good stuff.


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## Drac (Jan 23, 2009)

tellner said:


> I had a long discussion with the head campus police officer back when we taught at a local university. He said that when he was a street cop there were lots of times when he came home and the first words out of his wife's mouth were "Take off your clothes!"
> 
> 
> 
> Naturally, that did his ego some good until she said "You got pepper spray on you again."


 
The last time I got sprayed I took off the boots, duty belt and vest and got into the cold shower fully clothed..



tellner said:


> The really telling one was during a demonstration by a pompous self-important cop. He was pushing OC as a dandy defense against rape, robbery and violent assault. He also makes a lot of money doing training courses on the stuff.


 
Some guys DO believe that is is a cure all...




tellner said:


> I asked if he would use pepper spray if someone were trying to do that to him. Of course not, he said. He'd use a gun and went on about how only "highly trained police officers" should carry guns and the wonders of S-patterns and spray-and-retreat with the spray. Strangely enough he turned down my (private) offer of a fair test. He could use any kind of OC and only OC. I got a wooden knife. Two bucks a cut. Ten bucks a stab. No more than a thousand bucks.


 
"Only highly trained officers???" Give me a friggin break...Most of the OC groupies will not accept a challenge..Personally I would have loved to have seen that contest....If someone ever takes you up RECORD it and send me a copy...




tellner said:


> That was about the time I stopped listening to any *public* advice a police officer gives on self protection. I still take careful notes about what they say in private after a couple beers because that's usually really good stuff.


 
Its jerks like that that make my job of teaching tough..Oh yes, you can learn a lot about someone by how they ramble on when in their cups..


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## geezer (Jan 23, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> I remember one time my Sidai was sprayed with mace by police... So they tried to rough him up. But when they spread him he just shook it off...It could be because of his anger an not so much conditioning...


 
When you experience something like that, I've found that you either totally collapse and give up, _or get really, really pissed off!_

If you're getting mugged with mace, I suggest you _get as pissed as possible._ Focus your anger, and you might be able to endure long enough to, as Tellner said, "fight through it". In fact, you might find you are _unusually focused._


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## CoryKS (Jan 23, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> i am glad you brought it back on track...
> 
> Well are there any military men or women who has undergone training to build up a tolerance for Mace?


 
I know of no such program to develop a "tolerance for Mace".  However, it is a requirement for Army and Marine recruits (don't know if this is true for the other services) to be exposed to CS gas in a contained environment.  The purpose of the exercise is not to develop a tolerance, but to give the recruits experience in donning and clearing a gas mask while under the effects of a tearing agent.


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## Tez3 (Jan 23, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> I know of no such program to develop a "tolerance for Mace". However, it is a requirement for Army and Marine recruits (don't know if this is true for the other services) to be exposed to CS gas in a contained environment. The purpose of the exercise is not to develop a tolerance, but to give the recruits experience in donning and clearing a gas mask while under the effects of a tearing agent.


 
All our forces do that way and great fun it is too.....not!


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 23, 2009)

Actually about eight years ago I saw a show on the learning channel or TLC where some type of Armed forces trained immunity for pepper spray and mace...it was crazy....totally insane...




CoryKS said:


> I know of no such program to develop a "tolerance for Mace". However, it is a requirement for Army and Marine recruits (don't know if this is true for the other services) to be exposed to CS gas in a contained environment. The purpose of the exercise is not to develop a tolerance, but to give the recruits experience in donning and clearing a gas mask while under the effects of a tearing agent.


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## qwksilver61 (Jan 23, 2009)

Kick 'em in the nuts!


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## CoryKS (Jan 23, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Actually about eight years ago I saw a show on the learning channel or TLC where some type of Armed forces trained immunity for pepper spray and mace...it was crazy....totally insane...


 
Oh well, if it was on some show on the learning channel or TLC about eight years ago then I stand corrected.


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## tellner (Jan 24, 2009)

Another thing to consider is that part of the body's reaction to OC is to dump adrenaline. If he doesn't fall down, then congratulatiohns. Mugger has just become Super Mugger for the next few minutes


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## dungeonworks (Jan 24, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> Oh well, if it was on some show on the learning channel or TLC about eight years ago then I stand corrected.



*ROTFLMAO!
*
That is exactly what I thought.As CoryKS said, they go in the gas chamber...and it is an experience.  I never even seen mace, nor was it even really brought up in my army tour, back in the early 90's.


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## Drac (Jan 24, 2009)

There is a huge difference between Mace and Pepper Spray (OC)..When I was a bouncer the owner carried a can of police issue mace and if there was a free for all on the floor he would spray the whole crowd..I remember that crap burned upon contact with the skin...We finally hid it from him...


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 26, 2009)

Yea I remember my cousin sprayed some mace in the house one time...It burned my my eyes,face and forehead...Its like having some Tabasco sauce or Cajan Pepper firing up your skin...


But the question is if one gets enough exposure to pepper spray can become immune like someone who eats alot of spicy foods? Can take the cayan pepper





Drac said:


> There is a huge difference between Mace and Pepper Spray (OC)..When I was a bouncer the owner carried a can of police issue mace and if there was a free for all on the floor he would spray the whole crowd..I remember that crap burned upon contact with the skin...We finally hid it from him...


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 26, 2009)

OK I was confused there for a minute and I just had to see what you were trying to do here.
I will admit my first thoughts were of these 











And my second thought was this

Now I see what you are talking about
Sorry for the interruption


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## CoryKS (Jan 26, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> And my second thought was this
> 
> Now I see what you are talking about
> Sorry for the interruption


 
There is NO defense against that sort of Mace. He is a BMF.  Says so on his lightsaber hilt.


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## tellner (Jan 26, 2009)

I'll thank you to leave the size of Mace Windu's lightsaber out of this


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 26, 2009)

I think two maces would go well with WC???

You can use the Mace like short swords.




Xue Sheng said:


> OK I was confused there for a minute and I just had to see what you were trying to do here.
> I will admit my first thoughts were of these
> 
> 
> ...


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## KamonGuy2 (Jan 27, 2009)

Oh dear...

Now I have to learn the darkside of teh force as well as wing chun... darn


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 29, 2009)

Please explain the reason for learning the dark side?




Kamon Guy said:


> Oh dear...
> 
> Now I have to learn the darkside of teh force as well as wing chun... darn


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 29, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Please explain the reason for learning the dark side?


 
I could be wrong but I think it is so he can fight Mace Windu which is what the link in my previous post did go to originally


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## KamonGuy2 (Jan 30, 2009)

Eru Ilúvatar;1110019 said:
			
		

> Great post. I agree. Was Kevin Chan that instructor? He sounds like a very cool, down to earth type of guy. Does he do any seminars outside England? Preferably in the southern central Europe


 
He was indeed. He is an extremely interesting and funny guy. Very wise but very tough. The other night we were doing some things in lok sao. One of our instructors who has been training for 12 years tried to block his palm strike, but because Kevin Chan (Sifu) was so relaxed the guy couldn't do it even though he knew it was coming
He kept doing it. Eventually the instructor managed to block it and Sifu just folded round and still got him! 
The man is not mortal....

I don't think he does seminars in Europe (apart from the UK) but is always happy for people to stop by and watch his classes

What I like most about him is that if a student says that he doesn't think the move will work, Sifu willl go through it and show that it does, at whatever pace is necessary. There are no 'unrealistic' techniques, just common sense, fun and interesting moves

Going back to mace - it is pointless to build a resistance to it, because you would have to start doing that for every poison in the world. And like I said, many muggers in the UK prefer to use acid or a strong liquid detergent/bleach to spray people in the eyes

The only thing you can do (which has been suggested previously on this topic) is just to keep an eye on your opponents hands and don't let him go for his pockets


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## dungeonworks (Jan 30, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> I could be wrong but I think it is so he can fight Mace Windu which is what the link in my previous post did go to originally



Thanks Xue Sheng!  Always great to start the day with an unexpected gut busting laugh! 

:jediduel:


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## dungeonworks (Jan 30, 2009)

Kamon Guy said:


> ...Going back to mace - it is pointless to build a resistance to it, because you would have to start doing that for every poison in the world. And like I said, *many muggers in the UK prefer to use acid or a strong liquid detergent/bleach to spray people in the eyes*
> 
> The only thing you can do (which has been suggested previously on this topic) is just to keep an eye on your opponents hands and don't let him go for his pockets



This is common in countries that have a total ban on guns and a good point for the anti-gunners to grasp.  Bad guys are BAD GUYS and will improvise.  I'd rather face a gun or knife than face total blindness!  They also do this on ocassion to women in Muslim lands.  If a woman is not wearing her burkha in public, some extremist's toss acid in their face.

Isn't the mace they use in the states nothing more than Cayenne Pepper oil?  I think the chemica. stuff is illegal but that could be just in Michigan.  In that case, yes, one can fight through it if you can get over the initial shock.  Ask any LEO, they are sure to have a story or three.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 30, 2009)

You'd rather be dead than blind?


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## dungeonworks (Jan 30, 2009)

Eru Ilúvatar;1114154 said:
			
		

> You'd rather be dead than blind?




Hard to answer that one.  Not everyone that gets shot or stabbed dies.  I can deal with scars, but acid in the face?  Barbaric!


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 30, 2009)

tellner said:


> I'll thank you to leave the size of Mace Windu's lightsaber out of this


 
Well...ummm... I do beleive his was the only purple one


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## Drac (Jan 30, 2009)

Kamon Guy said:


> Going back to mace - it is pointless to build a resistance to it, because you would have to start doing that for every poison in the world. And like I said, many muggers in the UK prefer to use acid or a strong liquid detergent/bleach to spray people in the eyes


 
The bored ghetto youth over here were doing just that one Summer for laughs, they filled one of those Super Soaker guns with a bleach and water mixture...


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 30, 2009)

How would you defend against Light saber Xue Sheng?


:jediduel:





Xue Sheng said:


> Well...ummm... I do beleive his was the only purple one


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## Drac (Jan 30, 2009)

Come on guys we are getting way off the orginial subject matter...


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 30, 2009)

> How would you defend against Light saber Xue Sheng?


 
Why don't you make a thread about that?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 30, 2009)

Drac said:


> Come on guys we are getting way off the orginial subject matter...


 
Yes we are and it is getting a bit silly and entering the realm of :deadhorse


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 2, 2009)

Excellent funny ha ha 


donkey time...




Xue Sheng said:


> Yes we are and it is getting a bit silly and entering the realm of :deadhorse


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 2, 2009)

Pepper spray, well.....it has its purpose. That purpose just isn't that of a "fight-stopper" unless one is lucky enough to fall into the 50-ish percent of the time it works, against a less committed attacker.

Pepper spray is used when you have a chance to use it so that, when it fails to stop them and you now have to shoot/carve them, it's much easier to prove justifiable self defense in court because now there's evidence on them of you having tried to exhaust all nonlethal options first and they just weren't enough. THAT's why you carry it.

But, if you're stupid enough to bet your life on nothing but a can of seasoning, that's your business, however I am NOT stupid enough to follow your example.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 2, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Pepper spray, well.....it has its purpose. That purpose just isn't that of a "fight-stopper" unless one is lucky enough to fall into the 50-ish percent of the time it works, against a less committed attacker.
> 
> Pepper spray is used when you have a chance to use it so that, when it fails to stop them and you now have to shoot/carve them, it's much easier to prove justifiable self defense in court because now there's evidence on them of you having tried to exhaust all nonlethal options first and they just weren't enough. THAT's why you carry it.
> 
> But, if you're stupid enough to bet your life on nothing but a can of seasoning, that's your business, however I am NOT stupid enough to follow you.


 
Hey as guy (an LEO) that works for a friend of mine (LEO supervisor) found out... it works great on Bees....just don't stand down wind...OUCH!!! Try explaining that one to the Chief


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## Drac (Feb 3, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Pepper spray, well.....it has its purpose. That purpose just isn't that of a "fight-stopper" unless one is lucky enough to fall into the 50-ish percent of the time it works, against a less committed attacker.
> 
> Pepper spray is used when you have a chance to use it so that, when it fails to stop them and you now have to shoot/carve them, it's much easier to prove justifiable self defense in court because now there's evidence on them of you having tried to exhaust all nonlethal options first and they just weren't enough. THAT's why you carry it.
> 
> But, if you're stupid enough to bet your life on nothing but a can of seasoning, that's your business, however I am NOT stupid enough to follow your example.


 
And you have to have the oppertunity to deploy it..


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 3, 2009)

Great so use the pepper spray first. Then i can Iron palm their face if thats failed.




Andy Moynihan said:


> Pepper spray, well.....it has its purpose. That purpose just isn't that of a "fight-stopper" unless one is lucky enough to fall into the 50-ish percent of the time it works, against a less committed attacker.
> 
> Pepper spray is used when you have a chance to use it so that, when it fails to stop them and you now have to shoot/carve them, it's much easier to prove justifiable self defense in court because now there's evidence on them of you having tried to exhaust all nonlethal options first and they just weren't enough. THAT's why you carry it.
> 
> But, if you're stupid enough to bet your life on nothing but a can of seasoning, that's your business, however I am NOT stupid enough to follow your example.


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