# How long do you think you'd last?



## Chrisinmd (Dec 7, 2019)

How long do you think you would survive all alone in the wilderness with no food or shelter?


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## jobo (Dec 7, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> How long do you think you would survive all alone in the wilderness with no food or shelter?


which wilderness,  are there polar bears.?


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## Chrisinmd (Dec 7, 2019)

Let's say your dropped in the forest of the Pacific northwest. Washinton state area


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## jobo (Dec 7, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Let's say your dropped in the forest of the Pacific northwest. Washinton state area



i've been there, its much like wales only a lot bigger, as long as its not winter and i don't get eaten by a bear, i could last for months, particular if i was in possession of a knife and some means of ignition

is that actually a wilderness, you cant be  more than a couple of days walk from a road ?


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 7, 2019)

I have thought about this a fair amount.  I would have no problem with shelter.  Fire could be tricky with no matches but I think I could manage. Food would be an issue. Most of us don't know enough about local edible plants. Obtaining meat is the biggest problem. Without a gun or archery set up I would die.  
The problem with this question is most people don't know all the issues that will arise in this type crisis. Without good food, after a day or two you won't have the energy to do much and you won't be able to think properly.  What will kill you is lack of knowledge not lack of stuff.


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## jobo (Dec 7, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> I have thought about this a fair amount.  I would have no problem with shelter.  Fire could be tricky with no matches but I think I could manage. Food would be an issue. Most of us don't know enough about local edible plants. Obtaining meat is the biggest problem. Without a gun or archery set up I would die.
> The problem with this question is most people don't know all the issues that will arise in this type crisis. Without good food, after a day or two you won't have the energy to do much and you won't be able to think properly.  What will kill you is lack of knowledge not lack of stuff.


you really don't need meat to survive, you can argue about balanced diets in the long term, but its not an issue over a few weeks or months.

that said protein is a lot easier to find than complex carbohydrates, just turn a log over, best to swallow them whole


im not well up on the ecology of washing
 state, but in the uk with have lots and lots of nettles and you can live on nettles for a prolonged period of time, best to swallow them whole as well


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## Flying Crane (Dec 7, 2019)

A lot of variables.  Am I wearing appropriate clothing for the region and the season?  Or was I dropped into the Pacific Northwest while dressed for the beaches of Maui?  Little things like that can make all the difference.

Do I have any equipment at all?  Even a pocket knife and a bottle of water, or nothing at all?  Or a backpack full of supplies for a multi-day hiking/camping trip?

It’s hard to speculate without knowing some background.


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## Chrisinmd (Dec 7, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> A lot of variables.  Am I wearing appropriate clothing for the region and the season?  Or was I dropped into the Pacific Northwest while dressed for the beaches of Maui?  Little things like that can make all the difference.
> 
> Do I have any equipment at all?  Even a pocket knife and a bottle of water, or nothing at all?  Or a backpack full of supplies for a multi-day hiking/camping trip?
> 
> It’s hard to speculate without knowing some background.



To answer your question about the variables lets assume this happened this time of year.  December.  You have no supplies.  Just wearing a shirt blue jeans and a light jacket.


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## Chrisinmd (Dec 7, 2019)

jobo said:


> i've been there, its much like wales only a lot bigger, as long as its not winter and i don't get eaten by a bear, i could last for months, particular if i was in possession of a knife and some means of ignition
> 
> is that actually a wilderness, you cant be  more than a couple of days walk from a road ?



There is a lot of wilderness there but yes it is in the USA so im sure even if I put you in the most remote past of Washington State you could probably walk out in a few days assuming you know which direction to go.   I hiked Olympic National park and that is 922,651 acres of preserved wilderness.  Lots of bears you would have to worry about surviving and somewhat mountaneos terrain from what I remember.  Lots and Lots of pine trees


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## Flying Crane (Dec 7, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> To answer your question about the variables lets assume this happened this time of year.  December.  You have no supplies.  Just wearing a shirt blue jeans and a light jacket.


Bad situation then.  It’s cold and wet, Ive got no rain gear, no cold weather gear, no tools, no food, no water, no ready means to build a fire (everything is wet) and no means to purify water.  Drinking the water from a stream could be worse than not drinking it.  Vomiting and diarrhea from drinking bad water can dehydrate and kill you faster than simply not drinking it.  The cold and wet can cause hypothermia very quickly and lead to lethargy and very irrational decision making.

The prospects do not look good.  If I don’t find help or a way out within a couple days, it’s likely all over.


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## Tez3 (Dec 7, 2019)

Trust me, being alone anywhere remote even without food sounds idyllic compared to the UK in the throes of a very vitriolic and nasty General Election campaign. Many of us may not survive this whereas the chances of surviving in the wilderness are quite high for me.


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## Chrisinmd (Dec 7, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> The cold and wet can cause hypothermia very quickly and lead to lethargy and very irrational decision making.
> 
> The prospects do not look good.  If I don’t find help or a way out within a couple days, it’s likely all over.



Just checked the weather there low of 41 degrees with a 100 percent chance of rain.  Not pleasant but with a light jacket I don't think you will freeze to death or get hypothermia


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## Flying Crane (Dec 7, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Just checked the weather there low of 41 degrees with a 100 percent chance of rain.  Not pleasant but with a light jacket I don't think you will freeze to death or get hypothermia


Oh yes you will.  Not instantly.  But without shelter and a source of warmth, of you are constantly wet in 42 degrees, just a light jacket, it won’t take long.  Jeans will be soaked, if the jacket isn’t a rain jacket then it too will be soaked.  That is hypothermia country, for sure.


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## jobo (Dec 7, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> There is a lot of wilderness there but yes it is in the USA so im sure even if I put you in the most remote past of Washington State you could probably walk out in a few days assuming you know which direction to go.   I hiked Olympic National park and that is 922,651 acres of preserved wilderness.  Lots of bears you would have to worry about surviving and somewhat mountaneos terrain from what I remember.  Lots and Lots of pine trees


 100 th


Chrisinmd said:


> There is a lot of wilderness there but yes it is in the USA so im sure even if I put you in the most remote past of Washington State you could probably walk out in a few days assuming you know which direction to go.   I hiked Olympic National park and that is 922,651 acres of preserved wilderness.  Lots of bears you would have to worry about surviving and somewhat mountainous terrain from what I remember.  Lots and Lots of pine trees


even with a million acres, your not going to be more than 70 miles or so from civilization

that's only a couple of days if your in good condition, or dead if you cant walk further than the distance between your car and the mall, the trick is a) going in the right direction and especially b) not going in circles


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## Buka (Dec 7, 2019)

Wait, what, you mean abandoned without cable TV?  

If I'm to play this game then I'm playing by my own rules if you'll let me - in that I'm going to be stranded with whatever I always carry with me everywhere I always am. My biggest threat is always the cold. I hate cold. My biggest strength is my training, the fact that I'm stubborn and I'm used to hoofing. That and the fact that I love Washington state.

So for me, I'm walking to the town of Sequim. I love Sequim.


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## jobo (Dec 7, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Bad situation then.  It’s cold and wet, Ive got no rain gear, no cold weather gear, no tools, no food, no water, no ready means to build a fire (everything is wet) and no means to purify water.  Drinking the water from a stream could be worse than not drinking it.  Vomiting and diarrhea from drinking bad water can dehydrate and kill you faster than simply not drinking it.  The cold and wet can cause hypothermia very quickly and lead to lethargy and very irrational decision making.
> 
> The prospects do not look good.  If I don’t find help or a way out within a couple days, it’s likely all over.





Flying Crane said:


> Oh yes you will.  Not instantly.  But without shelter and a source of warmth, of you are constantly wet in 42 degrees, just a light jacket, it won’t take long.  Jeans will be soaked, if the jacket isn’t a rain jacket then it too will be soaked.  That is hypothermia country, for sure.


 i think your underestimating humans ability to survive moderate cold, we are a species that has colonised the most inhospitable corners of the globe armed with no more than a horse blanket.

i think 40 degrees and a light drizzle, whilst by no means pleasant is a long way from certain death. there's people sleeping rough who seem to survive far worse conditions than that, ive done countless hours on a motorbike soak through, in far far colder conditions than that and lived to tell the tale far better that than being stuck in the australian outback


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## Flying Crane (Dec 7, 2019)

Buka said:


> Wait, what, you mean abandoned without cable TV?
> 
> If I'm to play this game then I'm playing by my own rules if you'll let me - in that I'm going to be stranded with whatever I always carry with me everywhere I always am. My biggest threat is always the cold. I hate cold. My biggest strength is my training, the fact that I'm stubborn and I'm used to hoofing. That and the fact that I love Washington state.
> 
> So for me, I'm walking to the town of Sequim. I love Sequim.


I’m really hoping I would have been mindful enough that day to pack a roll of good, soft toilet paper.  Using leaves in the woods?  Sounds miserable.  Of course without food I likely won’t need it more than once or twice.  But still.


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## Buka (Dec 7, 2019)

Time of year would matter a lot. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be on Hurricane Ridge in the winter.
And where in the state you were would matter, too. I've been to parts of Washington state where the trees were so close together I couldn't walk through them. And I'm skinny. I had never seen trees like that.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 7, 2019)

jobo said:


> i think your underestimating humans ability to survive moderate cold, we are a species that has colonised the most inhospitable corners of the globe armed with no more than a horse blanket.
> 
> i think 40 degrees and a light drizzle, whilst by no means pleasant is a long way from certain death. there's people sleeping rough who seem to survive far worse conditions than that, ive done countless hours on a motorbike soak through, in far far colder conditions than that and lived to tell the tale far better that than being stuck in the australian outback


Keep in mind, that's the time in the day. It will get a lot colder at night. If you can set up a shelter and figure out a way to dry off, then take off all the wet clothes you might be alright, but then you'll be naked in a cold forest. With no supplies.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 7, 2019)

Personally, assuming the weather doesn't get me (big assumption), I would be fine up until I eat a bad plant/berry (I know basic stuff to tell safe vs. Unsafe food but have never had to test it), I ran into a bear, or i stumbled across some people. The last is the least likely as if I found a good spot to set up shelter I'd probably do that and wait for whatever reacue group is coming from however I got stranded like that.

If I was intentionally going survival camping like that, I would be a lot more prepared than that (also doing it in the adurondacks) and probably be okay unless a bear or other wild animal got me.


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## jobo (Dec 7, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Keep in mind, that's the time in the day. It will get a lot colder at night. If you can set up a shelter and figure out a way to dry off, then take off all the wet clothes you might be alright, but then you'll be naked in a cold forest. With no supplies.


++ but you said 40 degrees was dangerous, now your saying some unspecified lower temp is dangerous

not pleasant, but ultimately survivable.

id draw your attention to the millions fighting in the trenches of the first world war, soaking wet with temps well, well below low freezing and yet most managed to live long enough to die by machine gun fire

you're clearly not an out door type


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 7, 2019)

jobo said:


> ++ but you said 40 degrees was dangerous, now your saying some unspecified lower temp is dangerous
> 
> not pleasant, but ultimately survivable.
> 
> ...


I never said 40 was dangerous. Id have to go back but I think you're referring to flying crane. I just looked at the temperature in olympia washington, the lowest it's supposed to get tonight is 28, with no chance of rain which is definitely doable.


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## CB Jones (Dec 7, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> How long do you think you would survive all alone in the wilderness with no food or shelter?



With some basic equipment....knife, rope, small axe or hatchet, a cooking pot, fire starter, and warm Clothes.....no problem.  Without that....not so much.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 7, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I never said 40 was dangerous. Id have to go back but I think you're referring to flying crane. I just looked at the temperature in olympia washington, the lowest it's supposed to get tonight is 28, with no chance of rain which is definitely doable.


I do say that 40 degrees can be dangerous, given the scenario described to me by the OP in posts 8 and 12:  jeans and a light jacket (I am assuming NOT a rain jacket) with zero supplies, no food, no water, no camping equipment, and in the rain.

Try an experiment:  the next time the temperature reaches 40, put on some jeans, tee-shirt, light jacket, and hiking boots.  Step into a cold shower and get good and soaked.  Now go outside after nightfall, preferably in the rain, and see how long it takes before you are shivering uncontrollably.  Once that happens, if you have no way to dry off, no way to get warm, and no food, hypothermia is inevitable if the weather does not improve soon. Your body will burn a lot of calories trying to stay warm, but without food that is a losing battle.

It could happen in warmer temperature than 40, it just takes longer.  50s, 60s? Sure.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 7, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I do say that 40 degrees can be dangerous, given the scenario described to me by the OP in posts 8 and 12:  jeans and a light jacket (I am assuming NOT a rain jacket) with zero supplies, no food, no water, no camping equipment, and in the rain.
> 
> Try an experiment:  the next time the temperature reaches 40, put on some jeans, tee-shirt, light jacket, and hiking boots.  Step into a cold shower and get good and soaked.  Now go outside after nightfall, preferably in the rain, and see how long it takes before you are shivering uncontrollably.  Once that happens, if you have no way to dry off, no way to get warm, and no food, hypothermia is inevitable if the weather does not improve soon. Your body will burn a lot of calories trying to stay warm, but without food that is a losing battle.
> 
> It could happen in warmer temperature than 40, it just takes longer.  50s, 60s? Sure.


Again, the weather report i got for olympia said no rain. I have slept outside in those temperatures in a shelter i made for myself, for a merit badge way back and was fine.

Incidentally, one of my first (bsa) camping trips, it was raining in november, probably about 40-50 degrees. I knew nothing of camping safety, got soaked, got my tent and sleeping bag soaked. Ended up with hypothermia. Likely would have ended up in the hospital if my brother didn't help me out. So I know water can be killer.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 7, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> With some basic equipment....knife, rope, small axe or hatchet, a cooking pot, fire starter, and warm Clothes.....no problem.  Without that....not so much.


I had a couple times where I planned on heading out to the adirondacks with exactly that for a summer and seeing how I fared. Something came up the first few summers and i always figured I could do it next summer. Now that idea is gone, I highly doubt my job would give me 2 months off for something like that.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 7, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Again, the weather report i got for olympia said no rain. I have slept outside in those temperatures in a shelter i made for myself, for a merit badge way back and was fine.
> 
> Incidentally, one of my first (bsa) camping trips, it was raining in november, probably about 40-50 degrees. I knew nothing of camping safety, got soaked, got my tent and sleeping bag soaked. Ended up with hypothermia. Likely would have ended up in the hospital if my brother didn't help me out. So I know water can be killer.


Well yeah.  And I’m responding based on the parameters given to me by the OP.


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## jobo (Dec 7, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I do say that 40 degrees can be dangerous, given the scenario described to me by the OP in posts 8 and 12:  jeans and a light jacket (I am assuming NOT a rain jacket) with zero supplies, no food, no water, no camping equipment, and in the rain.
> 
> Try an experiment:  the next time the temperature reaches 40, put on some jeans, tee-shirt, light jacket, and hiking boots.  Step into a cold shower and get good and soaked.  Now go outside after nightfall, preferably in the rain, and see how long it takes before you are shivering uncontrollably.  Once that happens, if you have no way to dry off, no way to get warm, and no food, hypothermia is inevitable if the weather does not improve soon. Your body will burn a lot of calories trying to stay warm, but without food that is a losing battle.
> 
> It could happen in warmer temperature than 40, it just takes longer.  50s, 60s? Sure.


 is it warm where you live coz 40 is warm here in the winter and i do go out in cold and the rain wearing just a tshirt and shorts and get soaked, frequently on my mountain bike, which in itself is a lot warmer than getting soaked on a motor bike, which ive also done an awful lot

really your not going to get hypothermia at 40, a bit chilly perhaps, maybe even a shiver or two, but not dead


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 7, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Well yeah.  And I’m responding based on the parameters given to me by the OP.


I was too. op said washington state, and said it was raining there. I looked at washington state and it said it's not raining. I also made it clear in my post that with no rain that temperature is doable.


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 7, 2019)

jobo said:


> you really don't need meat to survive, you can argue about balanced diets in the long term, but its not an issue over a few weeks or months.
> 
> that said protein is a lot easier to find than complex carbohydrates, just turn a log over, best to swallow them whole
> 
> ...


my first assumption was that washington state would be similar to my part of the world new england.  by october its can be down to freezing temperatures.  snow and ice.  with that assumption meat is the primary source of food during the winter.  vegetables and greens wont be there for you to survive.

on a side note i was just watching Glenn Villeneuve on Joe Rogan, it took him years to learn and plan to live in the wilderness.


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## jobo (Dec 7, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> my first assumption was that washington state would be similar to my part of the world new england.  by october its can be down to freezing temperatures.  snow and ice.  with that assumption meat is the primary source of food during the winter.  vegetables and greens wont be there for you to survive.
> 
> on a side note i was just watching Glenn Villeneuve on Joe Rogan, it took him years to learn and plan to live in the wilderness.


and yet the early european settlers had it sorted in a few weeks, well all the ones that weren't eaten by bears, it really cant take years, what was it a PHd
i went on a foraging course in the local woods, took two hours and gave the dog a walk that and my scout bivouac training and im good to go


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## Chrisinmd (Dec 7, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Again, the weather report i got for olympia said no rain. I have slept outside in those temperatures in a shelter i made for myself, for a merit badge way back and was fine.



In this scenario it is 41 degrees with a 100 percent chance of rain.  I think I looked up the weather in Seattle earlier in the day when I made the post just as an example to go by.  But in this scenario you are 41 degrees with a 100 percent chance of rain in the Washington State wilderness.  No supplies just jeans, shirt and light jacket.


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## Chrisinmd (Dec 7, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> my first assumption was that washington state would be similar to my part of the world new england.



Pretty close Washington state to New England (Boston) temp wise in Dec.  Looks like New England 2.4 degrees warmer.
Average minimum temperature in Seattle in December is (35.6°F). the average min temperature average in december in Boston is 38°F.


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## jobo (Dec 7, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> In this scenario it is 41 degrees with a 100 percent chance of rain.  I think I looked up the weather in Seattle earlier in the day when I made the post just as an example to go by.  But in this scenario you are 41 degrees with a 100 percent chance of rain in the Washington State wilderness.  No supplies just jeans, shirt and light jacket.


yes just walk for a couple of days, find somewhere sheltered to sleep and drink rain, you'll be just fine after a hot bath

NB you should always wear sensible shoes in case aliens abduct you and drop you in washington state, don't say you weren't warned


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 7, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> In this scenario it is 41 degrees with a 100 percent chance of rain.  I think I looked up the weather in Seattle earlier in the day when I made the post just as an example to go by.  But in this scenario you are 41 degrees with a 100 percent chance of rain in the Washington State wilderness.  No supplies just jeans, shirt and light jacket.


No shoes or underwear? Im not wearing my glasses? This is unfortunate.


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## Chrisinmd (Dec 8, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> No shoes or underwear? Im not wearing my glasses? This is unfortunate.



Well I would be totally screwed with my glasses as well.  I would just be walking into pine trees the whole time!

But yes you can have your shoes and glasses in this scenario.  Underwear as well unless if you like going commando!


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 8, 2019)

jobo said:


> and yet the early european settlers had it sorted in a few weeks, well all the ones that weren't eaten by bears, it really cant take years, what was it a PHd
> i went on a foraging course in the local woods, took two hours and gave the dog a walk that and my scout bivouac training and im good to go



I usually will not reply to these type argument posts but for everyone else.
I gave his name Glen V.  He was on the national geographic show life below zero.  Now as I already mentioned I assumed Washington state would have below freezing winters. Glenn is a good example for the OP question because hee did exactly the proposed situation with the exception that he is in upper Alaska.  He did a lot of research first and new he needed it.  He had to start with 3 months of food supplies. He had never hunted before but had a rifle, fishing gear and tools like axes and shovels. He almost didn't make it.  The only way he was able to survive was all of his studies. 
Like I said what will kill you is your ignorance.  I never watched the National Geographic show.  I only watched the joe Rogan interview but I learned a lot from just that. Like how parasites eggs will kill you. Remember if your out in the wild there is no medical supplies or help.


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## jobo (Dec 8, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> I usually will not reply to these type argument posts but for everyone else.
> I gave his name Glen V.  He was on the national geographic show life below zero.  Now as I already mentioned I assumed Washington state would have below freezing winters. Glenn is a good example for the OP question because hee did exactly the proposed situation with the exception that he is in upper Alaska.  He did a lot of research first and new he needed it.  He had to start with 3 months of food supplies. He had never hunted before but had a rifle, fishing gear and tools like axes and shovels. He almost didn't make it.  The only way he was able to survive was all of his studies.
> Like I said what will kill you is your ignorance.  I never watched the National Geographic show.  I only watched the joe Rogan interview but I learned a lot from just that. Like how parasites eggs will kill you. Remember if your out in the wild there is no medical supplies or help.


 you said wilderness, now your saying alaska, which is some what colder than new england or indeed washington state, but the same point stands, first the peoples from asia armed only with a bear skin and a spear and then the europeans settler armed only with a horse blanket and a musket colonized the wilderness, including alaska and points north of detroit

 So you need an ability to shoot things, catch fish and an ability to build a shelter and a fire, that doesn't take years to achieve, three weeks should do it, if your taking three months food, its a piece of cake you can ignore the first two to the thaw, even alaska thaws. if he can take three months food he can throw in a few basic medical supplies. a few antibiotics go a long way, something neither of the above peoples had the benefit of

its a first world attitude that anything other than their centrally heated technological world is near certain death and the progress of man kind suggests otherwise

 i suspect he is building it up to sell a book,so what exactly took years ? your throwing an interview that only you heard in as evidence, it needs some explanation


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 8, 2019)

I'm originally a country boy, and a Marine. I can start a fire and build a shelter and hunt / fish. I know where and how to find clean water.

Realistically though, I'm old and need several medications just to stay alive. I suspect I would not last long. My priority would be getting back to civilization quickly.


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 8, 2019)

jobo said:


> you said wilderness, now your saying alaska, which is some what colder than new england or indeed washington state, but the same point stands, first the peoples from asia armed only with a bear skin and a spear and then the europeans settler armed only with a horse blanket and a musket colonized the wilderness, including alaska and points north of detroit
> 
> So you need an ability to shoot things, catch fish and an ability to build a shelter and a fire, that doesn't take years to achieve, three weeks should do it, if your taking three months food, its a piece of cake you can ignore the first two to the thaw, even alaska thaws. if he can take three months food he can throw in a few basic medical supplies. a few antibiotics go a long way, something neither of the above peoples had the benefit of
> 
> ...



This is why I stay away from this Web sight. Too many argumentative numbnuts.
I'm tapping out of this conversation.


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## jobo (Dec 8, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> This is why I stay away from this Web sight. Too many argumentative numbnuts.
> I'm tapping out of this conversation.


i suspect the problem is that you have formed a number of irrational views that you don't like being discussed . i mean really its a discussion forum, what do you expect ?

the fact your deciding to throw insults about over a minor discussion over living in alaska speaks volumes to your state of mind


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## pdg (Dec 8, 2019)

I'm quite sure I'd last pretty well tbh. 

In fact, I'd really quite like it.

I know how to food, I know how to shelter, I know how to fire - and I know how to make tools...

The thing that would absolutely kill it would be if any other people are around - contrary to what the survival reality shows would have you believe strength is not in numbers.

Well, I suppose another person could be handy - if there's wild animals I could maim them and use them as a distraction, or bait. Or maybe an emergency food source...


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## dvcochran (Dec 8, 2019)

When I was in my early teens my cousin and I would frequently go out for 3-4 days/nights. Always within walking distance of his house or mine, we would go a few to several miles out. We would either have hook & line or a longarm and a flint stone, and what we could carry in out pockets but never took a lighter or any camping provisions. We almost always did it in the summer (southeast US) so weather was never a big factor. 
A few times we tried it in the winter and could never last the whole time we planned. I remember twice we were unable to get a fire started and gave up. We did last three days a couple times but we left the house very wrapped up and were able to get a good fire started. Things like not having to get wet just to get a drink of water when the temp is near freezing are easy to take for granted. 

We would discuss this question at length. I think if a person who was reasonably accustomed to adversity were put in the situation and could survive beyond the first 7-10 days they would have a better chance of getting 'acclimated'. But weather/temperature and a water source are huge, life threatening factors. The first thing we ALWAYS did was gather material and start a fire, and find/make shelter. To be effective I think they are dependent on each other. If the shelter is in a bad spot maintaining the fire is very difficult. Fuel was always a challenge.  
We always had the choice of giving up and walking a few miles back home; there was always a relative feeling of safety. Without this, the situation would certainly stress even the most seasoned person.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 8, 2019)

pdg said:


> I'm quite sure I'd last pretty well tbh.
> 
> In fact, I'd really quite like it.
> 
> ...


First day during a cold night in the rain would be the toughest. Even without that the first day/night would be the toughest in general (I'm assuming there may be other complications including whatever lead to you ending up in the wilderness with no provisions in winter). After that it would be simpler.

Regarding strength in numbers: I think it depends. If I was there with my brother, or a friend whom I know has survival skills _and _we've gone camping together, I think it would be fine, possibly even helpful. If it was someone without those skills and not used to the outdoors, that would be a very different story.


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## jobo (Dec 8, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> First day during a cold night in the rain would be the toughest. Even without that the first day/night would be the toughest in general (I'm assuming there may be other complications including whatever lead to you ending up in the wilderness with no provisions in winter). After that it would be simpler.
> 
> Regarding strength in numbers: I think it depends. If I was there with my brother, or a friend whom I know has survival skills _and _we've gone camping together, I think it would be fine, possibly even helpful. If it was someone without those skills and not used to the outdoors, that would be a very different story.


you keep saying that, but being wet isnt the biggest problem, its not as good as being dry, obviously, but you body warms the water and the water then provides insulation from the cold water raining down on you, you can only saturate your clothes and after that it does matter how much rain you get.

 the problems comes when it stops raining and you start to dry out, that's when latent heat exchange occurs and you get really really cold, the evaporation turns you into a fridge, so in the scheme of thing, if you get soaked through then you really don't want it to stop raining till you get somewhere warm and dry

 im beginning to thing that the people on the other side of this discussion live in the tropics have never spent a day in the cold and wet


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## jobo (Dec 8, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> When I was in my early teens my cousin and I would frequently go out for 3-4 days/nights. Always within walking distance of his house or mine, we would go a few to several miles out. We would either have hook & line or a longarm and a flint stone, and what we could carry in out pockets but never took a lighter or any camping provisions. We almost always did it in the summer (southeast US) so weather was never a big factor.
> A few times we tried it in the winter and could never last the whole time we planned. I remember twice we were unable to get a fire started and gave up. We did last three days a couple times but we left the house very wrapped up and were able to get a good fire started. Things like not having to get wet just to get a drink of water when the temp is near freezing are easy to take for granted.
> 
> We would discuss this question at length. I think if a person who was reasonably accustomed to adversity were put in the situation and could survive beyond the first 7-10 days they would have a better chance of getting 'acclimated'. But weather/temperature and a water source are huge, life threatening factors. The first thing we ALWAYS did was gather material and start a fire, and find/make shelter. To be effective I think they are dependent on each other. If the shelter is in a bad spot maintaining the fire is very difficult. Fuel was always a challenge.
> We always had the choice of giving up and walking a few miles back home; there was always a relative feeling of safety. Without this, the situation would certainly stress even the most seasoned person.


i had a similar idyllic childhood, which would no doubt be considered child neglect now

where would disappear for a weekend or a week, leaving only vague detail of where we would be and even vaguer detail of when we might returned

 a group of 12 year old totally self sufficient, living off the little food we could carry and what ever fish we could catch or what ever crops we could steal from the farms,

we did this in all weathers, from the scalding hot to the deeply frozen, we always carried fire lighters, sleeping in old huts or building shelters out of branches , breaking the ice of your jeans before you could get up, not helped that we were also totally bombed out of our minds on cheap cider, which is why we had little food, couldn't carry both, still like baked beans cooker in the tin with added charcoal, we even made our own bread

happy days

it was more dangerous at home, we had set up a lead smelting plant, where we would burn the lead off cables we had got out of derelict houses, mould them into ingots and weight them in


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## dvcochran (Dec 8, 2019)

jobo said:


> and yet the early european settlers had it sorted in a few weeks, well all the ones that weren't eaten by bears, it really cant take years, what was it a PHd
> i went on a foraging course in the local woods, took two hours and gave the dog a walk that and my scout bivouac training and im good to go


Another factor that would apply to this comment is how many people are in the group. Having enough people to split up tasks is huge. It is a primary part of nomadic cultures. They travel in sized groups so that the essential workload is distributed but not too many to be burdensome. A single person in survival mode does not have this luxury. 
I suspect in a couple of weeks your dog would be looking pretty tasty.


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## jobo (Dec 8, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Another factor that would apply to this comment is how many people are in the group. Having enough people to split up tasks is huge. It is a primary part of nomadic cultures. They travel in sized groups so that the essential workload is distributed but not too many to be burdensome. A single person in survival mode does not have this luxury.
> I suspect in a couple of weeks your dog would be looking pretty tasty.


were at cross discusions, he was talking about someone who had delibratly gone to live in the frozen north with polar bears, but had three months food a rile and various other tools and acruitments.

now there no way id volunteer to go to the frozen north, with out at least the promise of a lucrative book deal at the end of it.

but in those circumstances im pretty sure i could survive, even prosper, with out a 8 year planning cycle, as long as i could avoid polar bears

that's somewhat different, to the other topic, which is base survival with next to nothing, in the instant case 40 degrees and some rain, i could last for weeks, thats aside from the fact that i could walk to civilisation in a coupe of days or so. in that situation id rather be on my own, less worry and nobody slowing me down. in alaska a bit of help building the log cabin and watching for bears would indeed be welcome

 if im dropped into in alaska wearing only plimsolls and a light jacket im dead with in the hour, if its minus 20, wouldn't have time to cook the dog


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## pdg (Dec 8, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Another factor that would apply to this comment is how many people are in the group. Having enough people to split up tasks is huge. It is a primary part of nomadic cultures. They travel in sized groups so that the essential workload is distributed but not too many to be burdensome. A single person in survival mode does not have this luxury.
> I suspect in a couple of weeks your dog would be looking pretty tasty.



This depends on the context though.

A single person who has a range of skills is likely to do far better than a group of relative specialists in a base survival situation. It ends up with the majority depending on the generosity of the minority who have applicable skillsets.

A group of relative specialists who can split up tasks usually fare better over the longer term where there is the luxury of having the time available to use those skills - as in a long term community.


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## dvcochran (Dec 8, 2019)

pdg said:


> This depends on the context though.
> 
> A single person who has a range of skills is likely to do far better than a group of relative specialists in a base survival situation. It ends up with the majority depending on the generosity of the minority who have applicable skillsets.
> 
> A group of relative specialists who can split up tasks usually fare better over the longer term where there is the luxury of having the time available to use those skills - as in a long term community.


Agree. With the exception of children I suppose, most everyone in a nomadic culture have a job. The old cook & weave/mend. The infirm are literally left to die sometimes. A very different and hard culture.
If you use the plane crash analogy, where many of the group could be suits with little to no survival skills there would be major problem.


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## pdg (Dec 8, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> If you use the plane crash analogy, where many of the group could be suits with little to no survival skills there would be major problem.



Hence my previous "emergency food source" comment


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## Steve (Dec 8, 2019)

jobo said:


> i've been there, its much like wales only a lot bigger, as long as its not winter and i don't get eaten by a bear, i could last for months, particular if i was in possession of a knife and some means of ignition
> 
> is that actually a wilderness, you cant be  more than a couple of days walk from a road ?


Lots of National forests, and if you get into the mountains, it can get pretty hairy.   Also, depending on where you’re at, the climate can be pretty different.  Remember, each state (Washington, Oregon, and Idaho) are each almost as big as the entire UK.   Oregon is actually bigger.   It may be an inch or two on a map, but it’s a lot of ground to cover.


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## Steve (Dec 8, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I never said 40 was dangerous. Id have to go back but I think you're referring to flying crane. I just looked at the temperature in olympia washington, the lowest it's supposed to get tonight is 28, with no chance of rain which is definitely doable.


One thing to remember is that the climate in western Washington (west of the cascade mountain range) is much more temperate than elsewhere in Washington.


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## jobo (Dec 8, 2019)

Steve said:


> Lots of National forests, and if you get into the mountains, it can get pretty hairy.   Also, depending on where you’re at, the climate can be pretty different.  Remember, each state (Washington, Oregon, and Idaho) are each almost as big as the entire UK.   Oregon is actually bigger.   It may be an inch or two on a map, but it’s a lot of ground to cover.


i did a road trip starting in seattle and zig zagged around washington, oregon and down to san francisco, went whale watching and drank an awful lot of coffee, got in to a fight whilst playing pool in some hidden subterranean bar for a) beating them at there own game and b) playing '' dirty pool'' which is just how we play it over here and got chased by a bear, which i think only wanted my sandwich, but it left a lasting impression

 i did indeed notice how big they are, i also noticed that they are just like wales only bigger, except for the bears
unlike new south wales, which has no resemblance to old south wales at all


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## Steve (Dec 8, 2019)

jobo said:


> i did a road trip starting in seattle and zig zagged around washington, oregon and down to san francisco, went whale watching and drank an awful lot of coffee, got in to a fight whilst playing pool in some hidden subterranean bar for a) beating them at there own game and b) playing '' dirty pool'' which is just how we play it over here
> 
> i did indeed notice how big they are, i also noticed that they are just like wales only bigger


Western Washington might be like Wales.   I was very comfortable in the UK.  But eastern Washington, Idaho, and a lot of Oregon, have very different climates than western Washington.   
Second, unless it was an extremely long road trip, I doubt you saw much.   That would be like me saying I experienced the UK because I zigzagged around England and Scotland.  You’re talking about a space that’s 4 or more times the area of England.   

Point is this.  1, yeah, you can be more than a few days from a major road.   It’s big, and there is a lot of undeveloped land.   That’s hard for someone in a place as relatively small as the Uk to fully realize.  And 2, because of the size and geography, it’s really impossible to generalize the climate.   Seattle and Olympia are cities in Western Washington, both in a narrow strip of land that is at sea level, next to salt water, sandwiched between two mountain ranges.


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## jobo (Dec 8, 2019)

Steve said:


> Western Washington might be like Wales.   I was very comfortable in the UK.  But eastern Washington, Idaho, and a lot of Oregon, have very different climates than western Washington.
> Second, unless it was an extremely long road trip, I doubt you saw much.   That would be like me saying I experienced the UK because I zigzagged around England and Scotland.  You’re talking about a space that’s 4 or more times the area of England.
> 
> Point is this.  1, yeah, you can be more than a few days from a major road.   It’s big, and there is a lot of undeveloped land.   That’s hard for someone in a place as relatively small as the Uk to fully realize.  And 2, because of the size and geography, it’s really impossible to generalize the climate.   Seattle and Olympia are cities in Western Washington, both in a narrow strip of land that is at sea level, next to salt water, sandwiched between two mountain ranges.


oregon was most like wales, even the little sea side towns were like welsh ones, mountains, trees, very green rained a lot.  i stopped in a sea side town called '' seaside, its like they started at the bottom and ran out of names by the top.

im not claim to be an expert on the topology or ecology, i did however spend a month cruising round them in a convertible with the eagles playing full blast. so i do have an appreciation of what they are like and how big they are, it took me a month to get to san fran ( admittedly most of that time was spent in dinners drinking coffee) and 10 hours to get back to portland for my flight,doing a steady ton up the i5 and its like a go kart track at that speed,

i still have the citation for speeding and the one i got for jaywalking


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## Steve (Dec 8, 2019)

jobo said:


> oregon was most like wales, even the little sea side towns were like welsh ones, mountains, trees, very green rained a lot.  i stopped in a sea side town called '' seaside, its like they started at the bottom and ran out of names by the top.
> 
> im not claim to be an expert on the topology or ecology, i did however spend a month cruising round them in a convertible with the eagles playing full blast. so i do have an appreciation of what they are like and how big they are, it took me a month to get to san fran ( admittedly most of that time was spent in dinners drinking coffee) and 10 hours to get back to portland for my flight,doing a steady ton up the i5 and its like a go kart track at that speed,
> 
> i still have the citation for speeding and the one i got for jaywalking


Who let that sounds like a pretty awesome trip, if you didn’t venture far from the coast, you have only seen one small sliver of the various climates.  Ontario Oregon, the Dalles, or roseburg are very different from anything on the Oregon coast.   Similarly, if you get out to the Olympic Peninsula in Washington, you’re going to see very different weather than in Spokane or the Tri Cities.   And Idaho is very different.   All of that is PNW.


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## drop bear (Dec 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> you keep saying that, but being wet isnt the biggest problem, its not as good as being dry, obviously, but you body warms the water and the water then provides insulation from the cold water raining down on you, you can only saturate your clothes and after that it does matter how much rain you get.
> 
> the problems comes when it stops raining and you start to dry out, that's when latent heat exchange occurs and you get really really cold, the evaporation turns you into a fridge, so in the scheme of thing, if you get soaked through then you really don't want it to stop raining till you get somewhere warm and dry
> 
> im beginning to thing that the people on the other side of this discussion live in the tropics have never spent a day in the cold and wet



Water conducts heat.


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## Tez3 (Dec 9, 2019)

One doesn't need to be in a huge wilderness with bears, wolves etc to be unlucky and die. However well you think you are prepared you are never prepared for everything and thinking you can handle *everything* is a big mistake. it seems to be a 'thing' boasting how great you'd cope in 'the wilderness' like some film hero or Sir Ranuph Fiennes, (even he though never comes away from his expeditions unscathed.)


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## pdg (Dec 9, 2019)

Of course anyone can get unlucky and die.

There's a chance I could slip in the shower later today and impale my head on the bath tap.

Dumped in the arctic I'd be surprised if I lasted more than a couple of days.

In the tropics I'd stand a higher chance, but I don't really think I'm at all prepared for the particular challenges that climate would present. Getting out alive would definitely be the one sole aim so everything I'd do would be toward that.

In temperate zones though, I'm quite sure I'd fare well. I'm not stupid enough to think I'd be prepared for everything, but I know full well I'm prepared to handle a lot (a lot more than most modern people) and a lot more I can avoid. There's always something that may crop up that I can't deal with that would end me, but a chilly rainy night by itself certainly wouldn't be one of those things.

In fact, if not for things like family being present to draw me back to 'civilisation' there's a damn good chance I'd choose to never return.

Note here that I'm not in any way intending to equate this hypothetical situation with being an epic explorer or some sort of film star - more like those people who never make headlines that simply eschew society and quietly disappear, turning up once every 5 years to do a day's labour to earn a new pair of boots...


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 9, 2019)

Tez3 said:


> One doesn't need to be in a huge wilderness with bears, wolves etc to be unlucky and die. However well you think you are prepared you are never prepared for everything and thinking you can handle *everything* is a big mistake. it seems to be a 'thing' boasting how great you'd cope in 'the wilderness' like some film hero or Sir Ranuph Fiennes, (even he though never comes away from his expeditions unscathed.)


I don't think anyone is suggesting that they'd be prepared for everything. I do know that I've spent enough time in the wilderness that I could survive on my own for a couple months, if I had basic survival gear (knife and flint). Like I said above, if the first night is rainy, that would be the toughest. If it was dry I'm pretty sure I'd be fine for a while, until either help arrived or I decided to start hiking and start searching for civilization.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> you keep saying that, but being wet isnt the biggest problem, its not as good as being dry, obviously, but you body warms the water and the water then provides insulation from the cold water raining down on you, you can only saturate your clothes and after that it does matter how much rain you get.
> 
> the problems comes when it stops raining and you start to dry out, that's when latent heat exchange occurs and you get really really cold, the evaporation turns you into a fridge, so in the scheme of thing, if you get soaked through then you really don't want it to stop raining till you get somewhere warm and dry
> 
> im beginning to thing that the people on the other side of this discussion live in the tropics have never spent a day in the cold and wet


That actually doesn't go against my argument that the first day would be the toughest. The first day would either be toughest from direct wetness or; being frozen from the temperature once the sweat on me freezes while the direct rain disappears. Like you said, I wouldn't want to be dry until I could be fully dry, either by the nearby temperature, or someone finding me who was entirely dry. I'd rather be naked and dry then clothed and wet.


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## jobo (Dec 9, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Water conducts heat.


 you do live in the tropic, yes it does, but so does air so does cotton. yet both are considered an insulator

how much heat is conducted depends on the temperature gradient between the two things,

so in simple terms at 40 degree ambient temp, if you body warms your wet jean to 40 d then theres no heat conducted away, if your body warms it to 45 then you'll loose 5 degrees to the out side air, how cold you get depends on how quickly you can warm it up again, keep moving. or shivering, as shivering warms you up., however the point im making is that continued cold rain makes no difference to that process as the jeans are already saturated, mean while the water has trapped the air in your jeans by blocking the holes, better than dry cotton would hold the air, the wind cant get though anymore


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## jobo (Dec 9, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> That actually doesn't go against my argument that the first day would be the toughest. The first day would either be toughest from direct wetness or; being frozen from the temperature once the sweat on me freezes while the direct rain disappears. Like you said, I wouldn't want to be dry until I could be fully dry, either by the nearby temperature, or someone finding me who was entirely dry. I'd rather be naked and dry then clothed and wet.


 most of this debate is disembodied from reality, just how have you managed to be dropped in the middle of the wilderness, if you've driven there, there's a road, if you've walked there you have the same clothing as you traveled in, which would hopeful included some sensible clothing.

the further you are from civilisation the more bizarre the question becomes,

 we commonly get people stuck on hills that have to be rescued, their seldom more that 3 miles from their car, they set off on a warmish after noon dressed in fashion wear, get lost and then start freezing as night comes. you don't need a wilderness to get in trouble, the fact your 100 miles from anywhere would usually mean you have some sense and equipment or you wouldn't have got to the middle of the wilderness in the first place to be stranded


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## pdg (Dec 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> just how have you managed to be dropped in the middle of the wilderness



Aliens.


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## jobo (Dec 9, 2019)

pdg said:


> Aliens.


yes, it either that or your helicopters ran out of fuel


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## Chrisinmd (Dec 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> most of this debate is disembodied from reality, just how have you managed to be dropped in the middle of the wilderness, if you've driven there, there's a road, if you've walked there you have the same clothing as you traveled in, which would hopeful included some sensible clothing.



Lets say your the pilot of a small private plane and it crashed it the wilderness situation I described.  Just you no other passengers. Lets say you didn't file a flight plan as well so no one likely to be sending a search party


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## pdg (Dec 9, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Lets say your the pilot of a small private plane and it crashed it the wilderness situation I described.  Just you no other passengers. Lets say you didn't file a flight plan as well so no one likely to be sending a search party



Then really there's no real problem unless you're injured.


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## Chrisinmd (Dec 9, 2019)

pdg said:


> Then really there's no real problem unless you're injured.



Well there is the problem of making it to civilization and not succumbing to the elements in the meantime


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## jobo (Dec 9, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Lets say your the pilot of a small private plane and it crashed it the wilderness situation I described.  Just you no other passengers. Lets say you didn't file a flight plan as well so no one likely to be sending a search party


isn't not filing a flight plan illegal and also very usually unless your running drugs ? and you have maps and navigation skills

 if your in the andes or upper alaska your in trouble, in washington state, its a bit of an inconvenience


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## jobo (Dec 9, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Well there is the problem of making it to civilization and not succumbing to the elements in the meantime



a lot of this is people who have never done anything out doors in moderate temps thinking that anything other than arctic clothing means certain death.

you are not going to freeze to death at 40 degrees, you cant by definition

the question was how long would YOU ( ME) last, and the answer is a prolonged period, im not dismissing the fact that people who cant walk thirty or so miles in a day, have no idea how to navigate from the sun, cant find enough food to sustain life, cant build shelter and have a great intolerance to the cold from living in texas, might be in a bit of trouble. but that wasn't the question


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## pdg (Dec 9, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Well there is the problem of making it to civilization and not succumbing to the elements in the meantime



Sort of, but you've got shelter, materials, fuel and a source of ignition - and likely a few tools too.

If you have an aeroplane on hand, even a small broken one, and still manage to die then honestly you not making it out alive is a service to the gene pool.

That's dependant on the location being somewhere like the example of Washington state, where it never gets properly cold and you're never really that far from civilization.

Inside the arctic circle is obviously a different matter - but if you're flying there without carrying decent emergency provisions then my previous gene pool comment stands.


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## Chrisinmd (Dec 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> isn't not filing a flight plan illegal and also very usually unless your running drugs ? and you have maps and navigation skills
> 
> if your in the andes or upper alaska your in trouble, in washington state, its a bit of an inconvenience


I don't think a private pilot flying a small crop duster like plane has to file a flight plan. 

But fine your running drugs and you have 50 ibs of heroin on the plane


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## pdg (Dec 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> a lot of this is people who have never done anything out doors in moderate temps thinking that anything other than arctic clothing means certain death.
> 
> you are not going to freeze to death at 40 degrees, you cant by definition
> 
> the question was how long would YOU ( ME) last, and the answer is a prolonged period, im not dismissing the fact that people who cant walk thirty or so miles in a day, have no idea how to navigate from the sun, cant find enough food to sustain life, cant build shelter and have a great intolerance to the cold from living in texas, might be in a bit of trouble. but that wasn't the question



I'm not sure how I feel about having to agree with you 


When I were a lad, our house had single glazing and the heating was restricted to an open fire in one room.

It wasn't uncommon at all to wake up in the morning and find real proper ice on the inside of the windows and the glass of water you took to bed last night frozen solid.

When we lived in France (in a mobile home in the garden while working on the house) our memory thermometer recorded -15°c on much more than one occasion overnight - we had to put water in the fridge overnight if us or the dog wanted liquid to drink the next morning because the fridge was the only place to stay above freezing - the pipes were frozen every morning and had to be thawed with a blowtorch.


I hate being cold, I don't find it enjoyable in the slightest - but I can deal with it.


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## pdg (Dec 9, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> I don't think a private pilot flying a small crop duster like plane has to file a flight plan.



How often do things like crop dusters fly over wilderness a hundred + miles from farmland (and associated habitation)?


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## Chrisinmd (Dec 9, 2019)

Your running drugs so know it is not a typical use for a cropduster type plane.  I think your getting a bit to caught up in the details here.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Dec 9, 2019)

You could do indefinitely with some difficulty if you had a knife and boiling vessel etc.      The most basic thing you need is a knife or cutting instrument, cord, fire starting ability and a vessel to boil water in or other wise purify water. 

A lean to shelter is pretty easy to build and will suffice.

im going with woodland as thats the most viable one for me.   Im not going to be stuck in the middle of the sahara in england.


for the record the less and less you bring the harder and worse it becomes.  Bare minimum is a knife as you can make most things out of it.  Just going to reassert he need for a good knife or cutting instrument again.  You can make do with a rock or flint but you really need one.  


Also if you legitimately want to try this, there are many places that do survival courses which give you bare minimum to use. Grated scope for them is usually waiting out until someone comes to get you, or going to a place.         I imagine somewhere has a pretty bare bones survival course where they expect you to only have a knife on you or something like that, or could be persuaded to host one.

Oh and i think i could do a week, as im not totally useless in this area, and if i had the minimum you need.  Thats when food and/or disease will probably get me.


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## pdg (Dec 9, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Your running drugs so know it is not a typical use for a cropduster type plane.  I think your getting a bit to caught up in the details here.



Not really, I'm simply saying that having a plane on hand gives you everything you need to get everything else you need with stuff left over if you're anywhere close to the temperate zone.

Even if I was, details are the difference between making it and not.


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## pdg (Dec 9, 2019)

Rat said:


> Bare minimum is a knife as you can make most things out of it. Just going to reassert he need for a good knife or cutting instrument again



Give me a couple of flints and half an hour or so and I'll have a serviceable axe and knife.


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## jobo (Dec 9, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> I don't think a private pilot flying a small crop duster like plane has to file a flight plan.
> 
> But fine your running drugs and you have 50 ibs of heroin on the plane



your running drugs by plane from canada,? that's not generally how the business works. but i've answered the question frequently, you just keep asking it again

hide your drugs and  walk for a couple of days till you get to a phone, ring the cartel who undoubtedly have a contract out on you by now, call an uber and book into a hotel and have a nice long soak, then rent a pack mule and go and retrieve your drugs


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## Tez3 (Dec 9, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I don't think anyone is suggesting that they'd be prepared for everything. I do know that I've spent enough time in the wilderness that I could survive on my own for a couple months, if I had basic survival gear (knife and flint). Like I said above, if the first night is rainy, that would be the toughest. If it was dry I'm pretty sure I'd be fine for a while, until either help arrived or I decided to start hiking and start searching for civilization.




Have you read all the posts?


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## jobo (Dec 9, 2019)

pdg said:


> I'm not sure how I feel about having to agree with you
> 
> 
> When I were a lad, our house had single glazing and the heating was restricted to an open fire in one room.
> ...


yes me too, i used to put orange juice in a plastic cup in the kitchen so i could have an iced lolly the next day, the blankets on the bed were so heavy it was like being an earthquake victim with a loverly hot water bottle and a couple of layers of clothing and you could get frostbite going for a wee

 i can't abide central heating now, fell like i cant breath if they have it in the 70s, but do like to keep the temp above 50, getting soft in my old age

 a few years back i was living in a high rise that was so cold, i used to go and sit on the landing by the lifts as it was 10 degrees warmer


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## Tez3 (Dec 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> yes me too, i used to put orange juice in a plastic cup in the kitchen so i could have an iced lolly the next day, the blankets on the bed were so heavy it was like being an earthquake victim with a loverly hot water bottle and a couple of layers of clothing and you could get frostbite going for a wee
> 
> i can't abide central heating now, fell like i cant breath if they have it in the 70s, but do like to keep the temp above 50, getting soft in my old age
> 
> a few years back i was living in a high rise that was so cold, i used to go and sit on the landing by the lifts as it was 10 degrees warmer



Ee when I were a lad...………………….
Monty Python: The 4 Yorkshiremen


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## dvcochran (Dec 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> your running drugs by plane from canada,? that's not generally how the business works. but i've answered the question frequently, you just keep asking it again
> 
> hide your drugs and  walk for a couple of days till you get to a phone, ring the cartel who undoubtedly have a contract out on you by now, call an uber and book into a hotel and have a nice long soak, then rent a pack mule and go and retrieve your drugs


We live in a county with about the same population as Brentwood, Essex (yea, I had to look it up). The population is spread out enough that there is no uber service yet it is only about 20 miles². To my knowledge there is still only one part time taxi cab. There are areas that a person walking would have to be above average in fitness to find another person in a days time. 

So contrary to your dense population/city life upbringing, not everyone, everywhere has the ability to flag down a taxi or use their uber app. Hell, I haven't seen a working public pay phone in I don't know when for that matter. 
I guess you are some kind of ironic glass half full idealist because you make everything sound like it should be a piece of cake. 
Your posts do make me smile and laugh out loud sometimes.


----------



## pdg (Dec 9, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> We live in a county with about the same population as Brentwood, Essex (yea, I had to look it up). The population is spread out enough that there is no uber service yet it is only about 20 miles². To my knowledge there is still only one part time taxi cab. There are areas that a person walking would have to be above average in fitness to find another person in a days time.



Is that 20 square miles?


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## dvcochran (Dec 9, 2019)

pdg said:


> Is that 20 square miles?


Yes, did the ASCII not show up?


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## pdg (Dec 9, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Yes, did the ASCII not show up?



Yes, was just checking we were on the same page terminology wise.

So, that would be a square with sides measuring about 4.5miles?

Unless the population of ~70,000 all live in one house in one corner and you're in the opposite corner, surely you'd have to be spectacularly unfit to not find another person in a day?


----------



## jobo (Dec 9, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> We live in a county with about the same population as Brentwood, Essex (yea, I had to look it up). The population is spread out enough that there is no uber service yet it is only about 20 miles². To my knowledge there is still only one part time taxi cab. There are areas that a person walking would have to be above average in fitness to find another person in a days time.
> 
> So contrary to your dense population/city life upbringing, not everyone, everywhere has the ability to flag down a taxi or use their uber app. Hell, I haven't seen a working public pay phone in I don't know when for that matter.
> I guess you are some kind of ironic glass half full idealist because you make everything sound like it should be a piece of cake.
> Your posts do make me smile and laugh out loud sometimes.



 do you live in washington state, if not a fail to see what it has to do with being stranded in washing state, which has the same population as london, abet a bit more spread out, but thats 7 million people that could use a taxi service. if your telling me there no taxis in washing state, i shall sell up move over and start one

 The UK isnt at all densely populated, the cities are, but there a significant amount of countryside in between, i to could walk for a day and not see anyone at all, its not an american thing,

and if you get up to PDG neck of the woods there nothing but a few shacks ( and glasgow) for a 400 miles, there no civilisation worthy of the name past preston


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## dvcochran (Dec 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> do you live in washington state, if not a fail to see what it has to do with being stranded in washing state, which has the same population as london, abet a bit more spread out, but thats 7 million people that could use a taxi service. if your telling me there no taxis in washing state, i shall sell up move over and start one
> 
> The UK isnt at all densely populated, the cities are, but there a significant amount of countryside in between, i to could walk for a day and not see anyone at all, its not an american thing,
> 
> and if you get up to PDG neck of the woods there nothing but a few shacks for a 100 miles


When the smaller states are the size of England then, yea it is. It is a different lifestyle in our rural areas. We cannot be as dependent on public transportation some parts of the world.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 9, 2019)

pdg said:


> Yes, was just checking we were on the same page terminology wise.
> 
> So, that would be a square with sides measuring about 4.5miles?
> 
> Unless the population of ~70,000 all live in one house in one corner and you're in the opposite corner, surely you'd have to be spectacularly unfit to not find another person in a day?


It is pretty seriously hill/hollow, low mountain terrain here and gets pretty sparse. 38,000 of the roughly 55,000 live in roughly a 5 square mile area, Dickson proper. There is one state park trail in our county that takes a seasoned hiker 5-6 hours with no 'civilization' in sight. A factor would be navigation. You quite easily may have to walk 10 miles to gain 5 miles in any one direction. I cannot think of anywhere close that a person could walk in a truly straight line for even close to a mile.
 I imagine the further east you go in TN and into the Carolinas it only gets more prevalent.


----------



## jobo (Dec 9, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> When the smaller states are the size of England then, yea it is. It is a different lifestyle in our rural areas. We cannot be as dependent on public transportation some parts of the world.


im still struggling with the concept of there being no taxi service in washing state , is that what your saying ?


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## jobo (Dec 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> im still struggling with the concept of there being no taxi service in washing state , is that what your saying ?


just googled, there is indeed an uber in washing state


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## pdg (Dec 9, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> It is pretty seriously hill/hollow, low mountain terrain here and gets pretty sparse. 38,000 of the roughly 55,000 live in roughly a 5 square mile area, Dickson proper. There is one state park trail in our county that takes a seasoned hiker 5-6 hours with no 'civilization' in sight. A factor would be navigation. You quite easily may have to walk 10 miles to gain 5 miles in any one direction. I cannot think of anywhere close that a person could walk in a truly straight line for even close to a mile.
> I imagine the further east you go in TN and into the Carolinas it only gets more prevalent.



I know you're trying to make it sound challenging, and honestly I get it. For a city dweller it'd be a possibly insurmountable struggle.

For me though it actually sounds like almost the perfect place to find myself 'stranded' with no other people or support 

Seriously, to me your description reads like a sales pitch


----------



## Buka (Dec 9, 2019)

To the OP’s question of How long do you think you’d last .... I think all of us here would have the same answer - As long as you had to.


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## Steve (Dec 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> yes me too, i used to put orange juice in a plastic cup in the kitchen so i could have an iced lolly the next day, the blankets on the bed were so heavy it was like being an earthquake victim with a loverly hot water bottle and a couple of layers of clothing and you could get frostbite going for a wee
> 
> i can't abide central heating now, fell like i cant breath if they have it in the 70s, but do like to keep the temp above 50, getting soft in my old age
> 
> a few years back i was living in a high rise that was so cold, i used to go and sit on the landing by the lifts as it was 10 degrees warmer


When I was in college, my apartment was so cold a wharf rat literally fell asleep on my bed.  I was so tired (and malnourished at the time) it took a while for me to wake up enough to realize I didn't own a cat.  


jobo said:


> just googled, there is indeed an uber in washing state


Of course we have Uber.  Why are you talking about Uber?  Did I miss a post where you're saying you could just call an Uber from the middle of the Olympic Rainforest?  Hahaha...  you're joking right?  It's literally a million square miles.


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## jobo (Dec 9, 2019)

Steve said:


> When I was in college, my apartment was so cold a wharf rat literally fell asleep on my bed.  I was so tired (and malnourished at the time) it took a while for me to wake up enough to realize I didn't own a cat.
> Of course we have Uber.  Why are you talking about Uber?  Did I miss a post where you're saying you could just call an Uber from the middle of the Olympic Rainforest?  Hahaha...  you're joking right?  It's literally a million square miles.



LITERALLY a MILLION square miles ? are you sure, that several times larger than the whole state
.

perhaps you mean a million acres, which is massively smaller than a million square miles, its actual about 1500 square miles, are you sure youve been there?, which means worse case your only about 70 miles from getting somewhere and it seems to have roads and picnic areas  im sure uber would pick you up and just to add salt it's not a rainforest

your confusing it with brazil aren't you


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## Steve (Dec 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> LITERALLY a MILLION square miles ? are you sure, that several times larger than the whole state
> .
> 
> perhaps you mean a million acres, which is massively smaller than a million square miles, its actual about 1500 square miles, are you sure youve been there?, which means worse case your only about 70 miles from getting somewhere and it seems to have roads and picnic areas  im sure uber would pick you up and just to add salt it's not a rainforest
> ...


Haha.  Sorry.  Literally a million acres.


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2019)

I am not freezing to death any time soon.


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## Tez3 (Dec 13, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> When the smaller states are the size of England then, yea it is. It is a different lifestyle in our rural areas. We cannot be as dependent on public transportation some parts of the world.




Try the North York Dales and Moors, we don't have public transport, we have a lot of wilderness with equally wild weather and the sheep outnumber the people by 100 to one. We have people who wander up here thinking it's 'just a walk' and end up having to call out Mountain Rescue and the air ambulance ( we rely on it to get casualties to hospital). I used to live near the Cairngorms in Scotland, did my mountain leadership quals there, it's a treacherous place if you aren't prepared and/or are unlucky. The UK is by no means a safe place because it's small. Dartmoor and Exmoor are infamous for killing unwary people. The Brecon Beacons are used by the SAS to train and it's killed some of them. There's other places too but these are the ones I'm most familiar with.


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## Rusty B (Dec 30, 2019)

What I didn't see addressed is the objective, of which there are likely two:

1.  To survive in the wilderness for x amount of time, or
2.  to make it to civilization.

If it's the first, I'm likely a goner.

If it's the second... I should be okay.  Key word, obviously, is "should."

I've walked 23 miles once, and once I got about two-thirds of the way through, I started feeling a very bad pain in my legs, as if I was tearing muscles and/or ligaments (I don't think I really did, though).  It took about three days for my legs to feel normal again.

That being said, if I was trying to find my way towards civilization, I would try to limit my walking to about ten miles per day.

If, as a previous poster said, you're never more than 70 miles away from civilization (which I definitely believe to be the case in the US and Western Europe); that's the easiest part.

Where it becomes questionable is the fact that, even if you make it to civilization, you're showing up empty handed and are at the mercy of the people's hospitality.  I think that's where the real challenge begins.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go watch First Blood...


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## jobo (Dec 30, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> What I didn't see addressed is the objective, of which there are likely two:
> 
> 1.  To survive in the wilderness for x amount of time, or
> 2.  to make it to civilization.
> ...


 thats a fair and honest assessment, but your balancing two things, the longer it takes to reach civilization, the more lack of shelter warm clothing food becomes an issue.

trying to walk say 80 miles at 10 miles a day will see you in all sorts of trouble as starvation and cold takes its toll, by the 5 day you'll be lucky to get a mile

50 miles a day is well within the design capabilities of an adult human, 3 miles an hour, 16 hours. 30 should be a piece of cake

walking shouldn't tax you at all, other than holding yourself up right there's barely any muscle engagement, its really controlled falling, but it seems walking is a lost art, as you can see by watching most peoples mechanics when they walk`

nb if the charity of your fellow man isn't forthcoming, getting your self arrested works quite well, as least they feed you, give you somewhere warm to sleep and call your wife/mother to tell them where you are, even if they beat you up a bit its better than starving


----------



## Rusty B (Dec 30, 2019)

jobo said:


> 50 miles a day is well within the design capabilities of an adult human, 3 miles an hour, 16 hours. 30 should be a piece of cake



If you're eating three meals a day with snacks in between, and getting eight hours of sleep... yes.

However, if you're out in the wilderness... you've gotta deal with the balancing act of movement and preserving calories.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 30, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> If you're eating three meals a day with snacks in between, and getting eight hours of sleep... yes.
> 
> However, if you're out in the wilderness... you've gotta deal with the balancing act of movement and preserving calories.


And that is huge. If you have ever spent extended time in very cold weather you understand this. 
My oldest brother and I have done four different 3-week long dog sled trips in Alaska. The first thing stressed to you is to conserve energy. Honestly, the dogs have to be better cared for than the passengers.


----------



## jobo (Dec 30, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> If you're eating three meals a day with snacks in between, and getting eight hours of sleep... yes.
> 
> However, if you're out in the wilderness... you've gotta deal with the balancing act of movement and preserving calories.


 well your right but coming to the wrong conclusion,

your body burns a significant amount of calories just staying alive, put you in the cold and it burns even more, shivering and keeping pumping heat to your extremities burns a lot of calories.

there's intrinsically no difference between the calories you burn sitting there and keeping warm and the calories you burn walking and keeping warm. that's why walking isn't a good way of losing weight, your at most 50 calories per hour over what you burn sitting there watching tv, its just that for every hour of walking you do, your three miles nearer your next meal

its all gets a bit complicated with things like body comparison, people with bigger muscles will consume more calories at rest ( or walking which is nearly at rest) and have more weight to move. but on the other hand the bigger muscles are a handy form of energy that your body can quickly burn to use to keep you moving. so they tend to last longer as they are carrying their own food source round with them. ie you dont starve to death till you've run out of muscle to burn

as a matter of evolution your body has various survival modes that will see you through most things


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 30, 2019)

jobo said:


> well your right but coming to the wrong conclusion,
> 
> your body burns a significant amount of calories just staying alive, put you in the cold and it burns even more, shivering and keeping pumping heat to your extremities burns a lot of calories.
> 
> ...



A good average to use for weights between 140 to 250 pounds is 300 calories per hour when walking. The higher the weight the more the calorie burn.  Or you can look at it as 1 calorie for every 20 steps. 
You are way off sir.


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## jobo (Dec 30, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> A good average to use for weights between 140 to 250 pounds is 300 calories per hour when walking. The higher the weight the more the calorie burn.  Or you can look at it as 1 calorie for every 20 steps.
> You are way off sir.


 not sure when your getting your figures from,


ive just gone and checked this with a reputable source

so for an average sized male, say 5.10 200lbs

the difference between sedentary, that means sitting there and low level activity like walking is about 10% per hour or per day 1900 as opposed to 2100

so if your consuming 100 calories an hour sitting there your burning 110 calories on a gentle stroll. thats 3 miles an hour

if you turn the pace up to moderate, say 4 miles an hour, it goes to 15 % or a 115 calories per hour

of course if your grossly overweight the figures skew a bit, carrying an extra 100 lbs of fat does indeed use more calories, but i'm still not sure it would get you to 300 an hour or if you could even walk for an hour at that level of obesity, you certainly couldnt do ten hours


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## jobo (Dec 30, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> A good average to use for weights between 140 to 250 pounds is 300 calories per hour when walking. The higher the weight the more the calorie burn.  Or you can look at it as 1 calorie for every 20 steps.
> You are way off sir.


 not sure when your getting your figures from,


ive just gone and checked this with a reputable source

so for an average sized male averagely fit, say 5.10 200lbs

the difference between sedentary, that means sitting there and low level activity like walking is about 10% per hour or per day 1900 as opposed to 2100

so if your consuming 100 calories an hour sitting there your burning 110 calories on a gentle stroll. thats 3 miles an hour

if you turn the pace up to moderate, say 4 miles an hour, it goes to 15 % or a 115 calories per hour

of course if your grossly over weight the figures skew a bit, carrying an extra 100 lbs of fat does indeed use more calories, but i'm still not sure it would get you to 300 an hour or if you could even walk for an hour at that level of obesity, you certainly couldnt do ten hours


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## dvcochran (Dec 30, 2019)

jobo said:


> not sure when your getting your figures from,
> 
> 
> ive just gone and checked this with a reputable source
> ...



Sitting averages burning 90 calories across weights so you are about 100 calories off. Again, it is scalar by weight.
Just getting off the couch for a lot of people is a win.


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## jobo (Dec 30, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Sitting averages burning 90 calories across weights so you are about 100 calories off. Again, it is scalar by weight.


i said it was circa a 100, at rest you said its c 90, thats 10 not a 100

i picked a 200 lbs male as its a reasonable average, there was also a worked example for that weight in the sauce

so with we take your number of 90 at rest 10% of that is 9 , so a 100 an hour, your still 200 short of your claimed 300


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## dvcochran (Dec 30, 2019)

jobo said:


> i said it was circa a 100, at rest you said its c 90, thats 10 not a 100
> 
> i picked a 200 lbs male as its a reasonable average, there was also a worked example for that weight in the sauce
> 
> so with we take your number of 90 at rest 10% of that is 9 , so a 100 an hour, your still 200 short of your claimed 300


Um, no. 90 at rest. 300 walking. So about 210 difference. That is about a 30% difference in what you said.


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## jobo (Dec 30, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Um, no. 90 at rest. 300 walking. So about 210 difference. That is about a 30% difference in what you said.


yes i know what you said the first time and its wrong, at least its very very wrong for a 200lb reasonably fit male

im less sure its not correct for a 300 lb out of condition blob, but even then its easy to estimate, and see its way to high, if the difference between someone who is sedentary and some one who is moderately active (like walking about) is 300 calories a DAY, then the difference between someone sitting down and somebody walking CAN NOT be 200 per hour

but that persons dead anyway if they get stranded 80 miles from civilization so its not worth discussing in any detail


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 30, 2019)

From livestrong:

*Calories Burned* for Non-Strenuous *Walking*
A 155-pound person *burns* 211 *calories* when *walking for an hour* at 2.5 mph and 267 *calories* at 3.5 mph. A 180-pound person *burns* 245 *calories* when *walking for an hour* at 2.5 mph and 311 *calories* at 3.5 mph.


----------



## jobo (Dec 30, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> From livestrong:
> 
> *Calories Burned* for Non-Strenuous *Walking*
> A 155-pound person *burns* 211 *calories* when *walking for an hour* at 2.5 mph and 267 *calories* at 3.5 mph. A 180-pound person *burns* 245 *calories* when *walking for an hour* at 2.5 mph and 311 *calories* at 3.5 mph.


first find a source that tells you what it is the base level for these individuals are or at least find an authoritative source


dvcochran said:


> From livestrong:
> 
> *Calories Burned* for Non-Strenuous *Walking*
> A 155-pound person *burns* 211 *calories* when *walking for an hour* at 2.5 mph and 267 *calories* at 3.5 mph. A 180-pound person *burns* 245 *calories* when *walking for an hour* at 2.5 mph and 311 *calories* at 3.5 mph.


 but that would only make


dvcochran said:


> From livestrong:
> 
> *Calories Burned* for Non-Strenuous *Walking*
> A 155-pound person *burns* 211 *calories* when *walking for an hour* at 2.5 mph and 267 *calories* at 3.5 mph. A 180-pound person *burns* 245 *calories* when *walking for an hour* at 2.5 mph and 311 *calories* at 3.5 mph.


there alsort of rubbish on the internet, where's the study they got these figures from ? and just as importantly whats the base level calorie burn for each person studied, as theres no study sited one suspect there all just copying from each other

if they have any truth they must be criminally unfit people, you shouldn't even have a slightly elevated heart rate when walking at 3 miles an hour


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## pdg (Jan 16, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> If you're eating three meals a day with snacks in between, and getting eight hours of sleep... yes.
> 
> However, if you're out in the wilderness... you've gotta deal with the balancing act of movement and preserving calories.



I can't remember ever having 3 full meals a day, maybe before I was a teenager... But that's not indicative of calorific intake.

Ditto 8 hours of sleep - not since teenage years, even then it was rare. For the last 30+ years I've probably averaged 5-6 hours sleep per day at best. In fact, 6 hours constitutes a lie-in for me.

In my early 20s I did a bit of a hike - 5 days solo unsupported on Dartmoor. I carried all my food (stuff like granola bars for breakfast/snacks and tins (i.e. of corned beef) for main evening meal. Bedding down in a bivvy bag happened when it was too dark to walk.

I think I still have the map somewhere that I recorded my route on, roughly 170 miles - and I was hardly pressing on. And I was carrying a rucksack (bivvy, sleeping bag, stove, food, couple of tools, some water, etc.) I would've stayed longer and gone further, but for getting back for work.

There's no way I managed to take in my rda of calories 


You don't need to maintain food intake for low energy activities like walking, it might get a little uncomfortable after a day or two if you eat nothing but it won't kill you - it'd probably make 90+% of the western population more healthy actually.

Hydration is the main thing.

Dehydration can kill in a few days.

Absolute starvation can take weeks to kill you, and if you have sporadic food every few days you can survive months or even years - sure, you won't be running around much without some serious conditioning but it's pretty much what we're built to cope with.


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## Rusty B (Jan 16, 2020)

jobo said:


> nb if the charity of your fellow man isn't forthcoming, getting your self arrested works quite well, as least they feed you, give you somewhere warm to sleep and call your wife/mother to tell them where you are, even if they beat you up a bit its better than starving



That depends on what country you're in.  In third world countries; this is out of the question.  Same for second world countries (Mexico, Russia, and Turkey are probably the most famous examples) - they're not much better.

Even in some first world countries - like Italy, Japan, and even the US... you might be better off avoiding incarceration unless you're in a life or death situation.

If you're in Western or Northern Europe, I can why you might jump to this sooner.


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## jobo (Jan 16, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> That depends on what country you're in.  In third world countries; this is out of the question.  Same for second world countries (Mexico, Russia, and Turkey are probably the most famous examples) - they're not much better.
> 
> Even in some first world countries - like Italy, Japan, and even the US... you might be better off avoiding incarceration unless you're in a life or death situation.
> 
> If you're in Western or Northern Europe, I can why you might jump to this sooner.


starvation, dehydration hypothermia is a life or death situation, its bit over the top if its just your feet are a bit cold


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## Rusty B (Jan 16, 2020)

jobo said:


> starvation, dehydration hypothermia is a life or death situation, its bit over the top if its just your feet are a bit cold



Right, but if you pass out on the street corner from any of that, you're likely to get picked up by an ambulance.

However, if you get incarcerated... now there's the prison violence that you have contend with.  First, you likely won't be physically able to defend yourself in your current physical state.  Secondly... even when you're back to 100%, being an exceptional fighter will only keep you safe in the short term - if someone who wants to get you is unable to beat you, they can always get a group of friends armed with shanks, and then you're done.


----------



## jobo (Jan 16, 2020)

pdg said:


> I can't remember ever having 3 full meals a day, maybe before I was a teenager... But that's not indicative of calorific intake.
> 
> Ditto 8 hours of sleep - not since teenage years, even then it was rare. For the last 30+ years I've probably averaged 5-6 hours sleep per day at best. In fact, 6 hours constitutes a lie-in for me.
> 
> ...


----------



## jobo (Jan 16, 2020)

pdg said:


> I can't remember ever having 3 full meals a day, maybe before I was a teenager... But that's not indicative of calorific intake.
> 
> Ditto 8 hours of sleep - not since teenage years, even then it was rare. For the last 30+ years I've probably averaged 5-6 hours sleep per day at best. In fact, 6 hours constitutes a lie-in for me.
> 
> ...


1


AGREE

our forebears, were hunter gathers, they would happily walk 30/ 50 miles a day hunting and gathering, I suspect hunting and gathering is a time consuming business if you are living in an ice age. walking as I said above should only be slightly more calorie intensive than sitting there, particularly if it's cold, maybe different in the tropics?. maybe also if your unfit and over weight, but as soon as your fit enough to walk 30 miles and not notice it, the calorie expenditure is very low and if your not fit enough to do that you really need to examine your fitness program, that's really base level fitness

the fat people of course can live on their fat store, i suspect the average middle aged american could live for months on that


----------



## jobo (Jan 16, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> Right, but if you pass out on the street corner from any of that, you're likely to get picked up by an ambulance.
> 
> However, if you get incarcerated... now there's the prison violence that you have contend with.  First, you likely won't be physically able to defend yourself in your current physical state.  Secondly... even when you're back to 100%, being an exceptional fighter will only keep you safe in the short term - if someone who wants to get you is unable to beat you, they can always get a group of friends armed with shanks, and then you're done.


I was thinking of a misdemeanor that Carrie's a 100 dollar fine, not getting caught with 20kg of heroin like midnight express,  if your on two strikes you may need to rethink your strategy,


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## Rusty B (Jan 16, 2020)

jobo said:


> I was thinking of a misdemeanor that Carrie's a 100 dollar fine, not getting caught with 20kg of heroin,  if your on two stikes you may need to rethink your stratergy



In that situation, you're only likely to be in a holding cell just long enough for the magistrate to tell your court date and let you go.


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## jobo (Jan 16, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> In that situation, you're only likely to be in a holding cell just long enough for the magistrate to tell your court date and let you go.


 yes in the warm with some lunch and your phone call


----------



## pdg (Jan 16, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> That depends on what country you're in.  In third world countries; this is out of the question.  Same for second world countries (Mexico, Russia, and Turkey are probably the most famous examples) - they're not much better.
> 
> Even in some first world countries - like Italy, Japan, and even the US... you might be better off avoiding incarceration unless you're in a life or death situation.
> 
> If you're in Western or Northern Europe, I can why you might jump to this sooner.



Italy?

Seriously, Italy?

I can only assume that you've never been there and/or never had any contact with the Italian authorities.

Maybe Sicily in the 30s would have been nasty, but these days it's nothing like the Mafia films...



Rusty B said:


> In that situation, you're only likely to be in a holding cell just long enough for the magistrate to tell your court date and let you go.



You seem to have a very US influenced idea of temporary incarceration.

As in, in the movies when someone gets arrested in the US they're put in a multi occupancy holding cell with 40 people, one called 'bubba' who wants to be very friendly and a group who apparently share the name 'shank' or 'slasher' who threaten you if you go near the open toilet against the back wall. You sit there in fear until a 'judge' or similar gives you a court date.


Over here in Europe, yeah, that doesn't happen.

You get arrested and taken to the station. There, you may have a preliminary interview and your shoelaces taken before being put in a holding cell, alone.

If it's mealtime you get fed, tea and coffee on tap, you have a bed in the cell, at any time you can call for whatever representation you have (or the duty one) and have a chat.

You're generally detained until your identity is properly verified - in most cases if this happens in the night you stay until the morning, when you get breakfast before you leave. Court date, if applicable, you get notified later.


I got arrested when I was 19 - I didn't do anything but there was a burglary in the area and I was just hanging around...

It was about 10pm, I got told at 01:30 there would be no charges (obviously no evidence pointed to me and it was verified that I was me) and I was given the option to stay in the (unlocked) cell if I couldn't sensibly get home.


It's actually not a bad choice tbh. Break a (small, cheap) window and wait for the taxi with the flashing lights.


----------



## pdg (Jan 16, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> Right, but if you pass out on the street corner from any of that, you're likely to get picked up by an ambulance.



If you're likely to pass out from skipping lunch I recommend booking an appointment with a doctor.

I mean, come off it, passing out?

Anyone in even relatively reasonable health should be able to easily cope with 3-4 days with no food and doing moderate activity.

If you can't manage that without collapsing, then it's either a mental block stopping you or you have an underlying physical condition.


----------



## pdg (Jan 16, 2020)

jobo said:


> our forebears, were hunter gathers, they would happily walk 30/ 50 miles a day hunting and gathering, I suspect hunting and gathering is a time consuming business if you are living in an ice age



I imagine that very much like wild animals, there were a great many days that they hunted or gathered nothing more than a rock too.

I'm not saying it's a healthy full time lifestyle choice (their life expectancy was way shorter than ours today) but the physiological capability exists to deal with those conditions.


----------



## Rusty B (Jan 16, 2020)

pdg said:


> Italy?
> 
> Seriously, Italy?
> 
> ...








You were saying?


----------



## Rusty B (Jan 16, 2020)

By the way, I've been to Italy numerous times.  I was in the Navy for 11 years - an East Coast Sailor.  Thankfully, I've never had to experience the inside of an Italian jail or prison.


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## pdg (Jan 16, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> You were saying?



The discovery channel? 

Now, they would have picked something like an immigration detention centre, one of the worse ones, and likely paid people to present whatever image they wanted for TV.

Extrapolating what is essentially a fabrication for entertainment purposes and saying that's what the situation would be if you were arrested for a minor offence is a bit on the stupid side tbh.



Rusty B said:


> By the way, I've been to Italy numerous times.  I was in the Navy for 11 years - an East Coast Sailor.  Thankfully, I've never had to experience the inside of an Italian jail or prison.



A navy stopover is woefully insufficient to base an opinion upon.

Especially as you clearly have no idea on the judicial process of the country, highlighted by your opinion that you'd even be put in front of a magistrate to get a court date on the day of your arrest.


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## pdg (Jan 16, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> You were saying?



Oh, a quote from that fakeumentary...

"We have no bidet, life is very bad"

Oh the horror - you don't have a device to squirt water at your **** to save you wiping, poor thing.


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## Rusty B (Jan 16, 2020)

pdg said:


> The discovery channel?



Yes.  Or am I supposed to listen to YOU?



> Now they would have picked something like an immigration detention centre, one of the worse ones, and likely paid people to present whatever image they wanted for TV.
> 
> Extrapolating what is essentially a fabrication for entertainment purposes and saying that's what the situation would be if you were arrested for a minor offence is a bit on the stupid side tbh.



Bro, you were wrong.  Just own and stop trying save face.




> A navy stopover is woefully insufficient to base an opinion upon.



Ah, at first the question was whether or not I've been to Italy.  But since I have... now you want to move the goalpost.  Sorry, not working.  Your original attempt at a rhetorical question was a fail.  Get over it.



> Especially as you clearly have no idea on the judicial process of the country, highlighted by your opinion that you'd even be put in front of a magistrate to get a court date on the day of your arrest.



I wasn't talking about Italy, dummy.


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## Rusty B (Jan 16, 2020)

pdg said:


> Oh, a quote from that fakeumentary...
> 
> "We have no bidet, life is very bad"
> 
> Oh the horror - you don't have a device to squirt water at your **** to save you wiping, poor thing.



Are you Donald Trump all of a sudden?  As soon as something destroys your argument, you resort to "fake news."

Just stop, bro.  You lost.


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## pdg (Jan 16, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> Bro, you were wrong. Just own and stop trying save face.



Only the problem is that I wasn't wrong.



Rusty B said:


> Ah, at first the question was whether or not I've been to Italy. But since I have... now you want to move the goalpost. Sorry, not working. Your original attempt at a rhetorical question was a fail. Get over it.



A visit as a member of the armed forces doesn't count.

Did you even leave the port/base?



Rusty B said:


> I wasn't talking about Italy, dummy



You didn't differentiate.



And you can stop with the name calling thanks, it just makes you look like an idiot.


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## pdg (Jan 16, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> Are you Donald Trump all of a sudden?  As soon as something destroys your argument, you resort to "fake news."
> 
> Just stop, bro.  You lost.



I lost in your head.

It's not "fake news", it's not even news. It did nothing whatsoever to destroy my argument. A great many of the discovery channel "investigative reports" have been widely discredited.

Do you realise how stereotypically American you're being?

Oh, and stop calling me bro, I'm not related to you.



Maybe you should eat something, it must've been at least an hour since your last meal, it's affecting your cognitive ability. All those calories burnt from typing obviously need replacing.


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## Rusty B (Jan 16, 2020)

pdg said:


> Only the problem is that I wasn't wrong.



THE problem is you are.  In fact, you're talking out of your ***.




> A visit as a member of the armed forces doesn't count.
> 
> Did you even leave the port/base?



No visit under ANY circumstance counts when it destroys your argument. 





> You didn't differentiate.



Italy was also never mentioned in the context.  Jesus Christ, man!




> And  you can stop with the name calling thanks, it just makes you look like an idiot.



No, it shows that I don't have the patience to deal with one.


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## Rusty B (Jan 16, 2020)

pdg said:


> I lost in your head.
> 
> It's not "fake news", it's not even news. It did nothing whatsoever to destroy my argument. A great many of the discovery channel "investigative reports" have been widely discredited.



It's news that you don't like.  Hell, you're not even trying to rebut it.  All you're trying to do is dismiss it.



> Do you realise how stereotypically American you're being?



1.  I don't care, and 2.  you can kiss my stereotypically American ***.



> Oh, and stop calling me bro, I'm not related to you.



You don't like that, bro?





> Maybe you should eat something, it must've been at least an hour since your last meal, it's affecting your cognitive ability. All those calories burnt from typing obviously need replacing.



I just did.  I ate your stupid arguments for lunch.


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## Rusty B (Jan 16, 2020)

jobo said:


> yes in the warm with some lunch and your phone call



The phone call, yes... but not necessarily the lunch.

I've only experienced this once.  The holding cell at the police station (which is also where you see the magistrate) doesn't feed you.  If the magistrate sets a bond, then you're actually going to the jail.  Once you get to holding cell at the jail to begin the booking process, that's where they give you a bag lunch.

But if the magistrate lets you go... then you won't get that far.


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## pdg (Jan 16, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> I just did. I ate your stupid arguments for lunch



Well, no, you didn't.

You have no knowledge of the situation outside your own country except for sources of dubious accuracy which you got salty about when it was rightly dismissed as irrelevant.

To be honest, this whole portion of the discussion is pointless, if you're actually starving (not simply a bit peckish) then presenting yourself to the authorities by whatever means necessary is by far the best option.

The thing is though, that to actually get to the point of starvation takes a very long time indeed and is something that I can almost guarantee you've never even got anywhere near - inappropriately nourished maybe, but no way starving.

But anyway, I'm finding you boring now.


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## Rusty B (Jan 16, 2020)

pdg said:


> Well, no, you didn't.



As usual - "no you didn't," "that's fake," "that doesn't count." Dismissals without rebuttals.  The MO of someone who doesn't know ****.



> You have no knowledge of the situation outside your own country except for sources of dubious accuracy which you got salty about when it was rightly dismissed as irrelevant.



I've displayed mine.  Yet you can't display $hit beyond "no it's not"

Get the fu¢k outta here, son!

If we're really being honest here, whether or not one has ever been to Italy is irrelevant unless you've actually been locked up in the Italian system.  If you haven't... I've got the edge over you, son.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 16, 2020)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Stop the nastiness, or you can expect account suspensions.

Mark A Cochran
@Dirty Dog 
MartialTalk Senior Moderator


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## pdg (Jan 16, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> As usual - "no you didn't," "that's fake," "that doesn't count." Dismissals without rebuttals.  The MO of someone who doesn't know ****.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can you be a bit more aggressive please, I'm not sure how much you're attracted to me...


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## Buka (Jan 16, 2020)

This thread got me curious about something....

In the dojo that you train - when I say _you_ I mean anybody and everybody reading this thread - if you get into an argument, a name calling, somewhat heated argument, are there any repercussions from the chief instructors?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 16, 2020)

Buka said:


> This thread got me curious about something....
> 
> In the dojo that you train - when I say _you_ I mean anybody and everybody reading this thread - if you get into an argument, a name calling, somewhat heated argument, are there any repercussions from the chief instructors?


I think if it had ever happened twice, I’d have been out of the dojo.


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## pdg (Jan 16, 2020)

Buka said:


> This thread got me curious about something....
> 
> In the dojo that you train - when I say _you_ I mean anybody and everybody reading this thread - if you get into an argument, a name calling, somewhat heated argument, are there any repercussions from the chief instructors?



It's not something that has ever happened to my knowledge, and tbh I can't really see anything happening that would cause it.

The closest things I can think of were a couple of kids being sent out early for inappropriate behaviour - and one person who is on short time due to certain ongoing remarks they make... It's been casually raised with them which stopped it for a time, but if it does continue again they'll likely be out.


From my perspective though this thread hasn't contained a heated debate - I've simply prodded a bit in a facetious manner (which isn't uncommon over here, it's all part of friendly banter).


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## Rusty B (Jan 16, 2020)

Buka said:


> This thread got me curious about something....
> 
> In the dojo that you train - when I say _you_ I mean anybody and everybody reading this thread - if you get into an argument, a name calling, somewhat heated argument, are there any repercussions from the chief instructors?



Well, if you look at pdg's first response to me... I've never experienced being talked to in a condescending tone like that in the dojo, nor have I seen it happen to anyone else.

But you can bet that I'm not going to let it slide if it did happen.


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## pdg (Jan 16, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> Well, if you look at pdg's first response to me... I've never experienced being talked to in a condescending tone like that in the dojo, nor have I seen it happen to anyone else.
> 
> But you can bet that I'm not going to let it slide if it did happen.



Here's my first response to you:



pdg said:


> I can't remember ever having 3 full meals a day, maybe before I was a teenager... But that's not indicative of calorific intake.
> 
> Ditto 8 hours of sleep - not since teenage years, even then it was rare. For the last 30+ years I've probably averaged 5-6 hours sleep per day at best. In fact, 6 hours constitutes a lie-in for me.
> 
> ...



If you consider that condescending then you'd not last a day in the UK before dying of anger related stress.


Subsequent responses of mine were orders of magnitude more polite than what would have been offered face to face (from me or pretty much anyone I know) given your apparent attitude. They were also more polite than the responses you gave.

It must also be remembered that it was you, not I, who initiated any form of name calling (directly calling me "dummy") and who went on to swear at me in a very poorly disguised fashion.

So while I may have strayed into the realms of condescension (albeit not in my first response) at least I managed to retain my composure and refrain from getting into base level offensiveness.


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## Rusty B (Jan 16, 2020)

pdg said:


> Here's my first response to you:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, what happened was that you got out-shittalked, and now you're trying to frame it as if you're the victim.  Not gonna work.

I'm gonna say this: if you want to engage in a $hit-talking contest with me, you're gonna lose.  The way you came at me about the Italian prison system... you saw the results of that.

You don't get to come at me sideways, and then criticize my character when it's your turn to be on the receiving end.


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## pdg (Jan 16, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> No, what happened was that you got out-shittalked, and now you're trying to frame it as if you're the victim.  Not gonna work.
> 
> I'm gonna say this: if you want to engage in a $hit-talking contest with me, you're gonna lose.  The way you came at me about the Italian prison system... you saw the results of that.
> 
> You don't get to come at me sideways, and then criticize my character when it's your turn to be on the receiving end.



Meh.


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## Tez3 (Jan 16, 2020)

pdg said:


> If you consider that condescending then you'd not last a day in the UK before dying of anger related stress.



What on earth was condescending about that? You are slightly mad got hiking across Dartmoor alone, somewhere I know quite well, though I am very impressed by you doing it. It's a bugger of a place.

I think you may have realised by now that our friend doesn't like Brits, we had a little contretemps on another thread ( which got locked) when he started with the insults and swearing. His miscomprehension led to him think I'd said something I hadn't. However I don't intend to rehash it but it's just a heads up for you before this gets locked too.


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## pdg (Jan 16, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> You are slightly mad got hiking across Dartmoor alone, somewhere I know quite well, though I am very impressed by you doing it. It's a bugger of a place



I don't think it's that bad actually. It definitely deserves respect, but not fear imo.

If you can read the ground, read a map (I went pre GPS, I did have an analogue mobile phone but it was simply ballast due to complete lack of reception) and are sensible enough to hunker down if it gets foggy/dark/etc instead of wandering around blindly there's no real reason to end up on it's bad side.

I'm aware that people who were probably better prepared than me have become casualties there, but really that's a case of them not being as capable as they think or sheer bad luck.

In fact I'm certain some were better prepared - my preparation amounted to buying some food and puritabs for water and informing my parents I was buggering off for the week. Maybe it's a genetic thing because my dad used to do similar and they weren't phased by my doing it...

If I was dumped there with no provisions I'm almost certain I could 'escape' in a day or two - again, reading the ground and reading the sky is the key to that instead of staggering around in circles crying because I missed breakfast and can't find a road.

I'd love to do it again (family and associated commitments notwithstanding), but it certainly wouldn't happen this time of year... Only because I'm too old to be sleeping in the rain for fun.


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## Rusty B (Jan 16, 2020)

pdg said:


> Meh.



Chasing the last word, I see.  I was arguing with a woman the whole time!  You can have it after this.


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## Rusty B (Jan 16, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> What on earth was condescending about that?



Read where your friend came at me about the Italian prison system.



> I think you may have realised by now that our friend doesn't like Brits, we had a little contretemps on another thread ( which got locked) when he started with the insults and swearing. His miscomprehension led to him think I'd said something I hadn't. However I don't intend to rehash it but it's just a heads up for you before this gets locked too.



First off, I didn't know pdg was a Brit until she said it.  Secondly... she brought up the fact that I'm American and used it as an insult.

I didn't even attack Brits in retaliation.

Tunnel vision like a mofo.


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## Tez3 (Jan 17, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> Read where your friend came at me about the Italian prison system.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah Rusty, Rusty, Rusty, my dear boy, ever the naïf.


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## Tez3 (Jan 17, 2020)

pdg said:


> I don't think it's that bad actually. It definitely deserves respect, but not fear imo.
> 
> If you can read the ground, read a map (I went pre GPS, I did have an analogue mobile phone but it was simply ballast due to complete lack of reception) and are sensible enough to hunker down if it gets foggy/dark/etc instead of wandering around blindly there's no real reason to end up on it's bad side.
> 
> ...



Have you tried Exmoor as well? We also have some pretty cool trails to follow 'oop' north, the Coast to Coast is a bit crowded these days but the Lyke Wake Walk is still pretty good.
We still teach the Guides map reading and the use of a compass, you can't beat it for back up when the GPs is on the blink plus it's a good skill to have.


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## Rusty B (Jan 17, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Ah Rusty, Rusty, Rusty, my dear boy, ever the naïf.



Woah, you just learned a cool new word that you couldn't wait to use!

Too bad it it doesn't even fit the context of this discussion.  You should have waited, son.

If you want out, all you had to do was say that you were finished.  But these face-saving dismissals that you and your girl make attempts at are hilarious!


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## pdg (Jan 17, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Have you tried Exmoor as well? We also have some pretty cool trails to follow 'oop' north, the Coast to Coast is a bit crowded these days but the Lyke Wake Walk is still pretty good.
> We still teach the Guides map reading and the use of a compass, you can't beat it for back up when the GPs is on the blink plus it's a good skill to have.



I did a small section of the c2c many years ago - I wouldn't mind biking it, but it's a long trek to do a day's ride (well, nearly 2 days I imagine in my current condition).

If I was to do it, I'd have to extend it out to a week or so by riding from here and making a loop of it.

The closest I've got to 'trying' Exmoor was an official campsite - it's nice from that cursory viewpoint, but I'd want to wander to really get a feel for it. Trails are alright, but getting away from them is almost always better.

I think this highlights the differences between people and how they treat the outdoors and hugely skews this whole discussion about survival...

While I haven't had the opportunity to do it for a while, my idea of one type of nice holiday is to head into relative wilderness by myself - I'd take a few tools, food (a small amount by a lot of standards), some water (plus treatment tabs) and basic weather protection like a bivvy, possibly a little petrol stove. No need for a tent or many other things most would consider essential.

I think a lot of people nowadays would look at that as an extreme survival situation, because glamping is roughing it...


Of course, the only real issue with doing it now is the variable legality of wild camping - but I'm pretty sure the areas that would interest me are sparsely populated enough that I'd go unnoticed.


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## Tez3 (Jan 17, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> , son



Now that is really funny! thanks for the laugh.


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## Tez3 (Jan 17, 2020)

pdg said:


> my idea of one type of nice holiday is to head into relative wilderness



Ah mine is to go somewhere hot and lie on a beach, and stay somewhere where I don't need my wellies. I do love where I live but every so often do feel the need to head to civilisation, see an opera or play and eat in a nice restaurant. I don't want to stay long just enough so when I get home I can appreciate the hills and moors again.


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## pdg (Jan 17, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Ah mine is to go somewhere hot and lie on a beach



Well, that's alright for an hour or so I suppose 

We went to Tenerife on holiday - probably spent a total of about an hour on the beach, most of which was walking, and the rest of the time was up in the hills - except for that bad plan of going on a glass bottom boat trip where they shut up for the day after we got back because it was too rough and I spent the entire time clinging to a bench while the crew ignored the no smoking signs and fed me constant cigs to shut me up... I'm not a boat fan.

Or the time we went to Spain, flew into Malaga and got in the hire car and left - didn't see the tourist beaches again until it was time to fly home.


I'll admit, warmth and lack of wellies is great - but I couldn't accept sitting on a beach as the trade off.

Oh, and the civilisation bit - I consider sheep far more civilised than the majority of city dwellers and I'd rather watch the family of red kite hunting in the field behind my house than watch a play or opera 




Imagine how dull the world would be if we all liked exactly the same things.

In other news, we appear to have exchanged genders


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## Tez3 (Jan 17, 2020)

pdg said:


> In other news, we appear to have exchanged genders




I noticed, I also noticed the dismissive attitude when he thought he was talking to a woman. No place for misogyny on this site. 

We go down to the South of France for a couple of weeks and just chill, it's nice for that length of time, the locals go on winter holidays, skiing etc for their break lol. We also go down to Cornwall out of season when it's quiet and moody, waves crashing over the rocks. Hot chocolate and egg banjos after a long windswept walk, lovely.


----------



## Rusty B (Jan 17, 2020)

Tez3 said:
			
		

> Now that is really funny! thanks for the laugh.



Yeah, it's funny because THIS reply shows that you're chasing the last word, so... I was arguing with TWO women the whole time!

You can have it.  You gotta let the ladies have the last word.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 17, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> Yeah, it's funny because THIS reply shows that you're chasing the last word, so... I was arguing with TWO women the whole time!
> 
> You can have it.  You gotta let the ladies have the last word.



N'importe quoi.


----------



## pdg (Jan 17, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> We go down to the South of France for a couple of weeks and just chill, it's nice for that length of time, the locals go on winter holidays, skiing etc for their break lol. We also go down to Cornwall out of season when it's quiet and moody, waves crashing over the rocks. Hot chocolate and egg banjos after a long windswept walk, lovely.



Never been to the south of France, lived in the north for a while though and not against the possibility of moving back over sometime...


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 17, 2020)

pdg said:


> Never been to the south of France, lived in the north for a while though and not against the possibility of moving back over sometime...


We've driven through the north, and on the nearby Garrison here you'd be forgiven if you thought you were in France, street names, barracks etc all named after First World War places. Of course we have the Tour de Yorkshire up here again, one day has Leyburn as it's finish so will be there for sure lol, the Côte de Grinton Moor and  Côte de Buttertubs. Pronounced in the local dialect no French person would recognise the language. The local fell rescue team is kept busy though up that way, so many people unprepared for walking up on the moors.


----------



## pdg (Jan 17, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> The local fell rescue team is kept busy though up that way, so many people unprepared for walking up on the moors



People don't realise how quickly conditions change and/or don't believe it when told...

There's really no excuse for the amount of people who get into trouble imo - most of the time it's so easy to make basic preparations that would change the outcome entirely.

Accidents happen, and mistakes get made by even the most experienced, and that's understandable and fine - I bet that sometimes even locals get caught out by something - but most problems are caused by a combination of ignorance and stupidity.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 17, 2020)

pdg said:


> but most problems are caused by a combination of ignorance and stupidity.



Absolutely! this is our local team, they put out good advice as do the other groups, the mountaineering groups, hiker's and walker's groups etc yet there are still people who just bimble up the hills in flip flops, no waterproofs and no maps because of course you have a mobile phone (they don't realise we don't have very good coverage) which is all you need!
Hill Safety - Swaledale Mountain Rescue


----------



## drop bear (Jan 17, 2020)

Buka said:


> This thread got me curious about something....
> 
> In the dojo that you train - when I say _you_ I mean anybody and everybody reading this thread - if you get into an argument, a name calling, somewhat heated argument, are there any repercussions from the chief instructors?



Our training consists of mostly arguments and name calling.


----------



## Buka (Jan 17, 2020)

Rainy, cold, day off. Already went to the gym....so I went to the back yard and picked some Jurassic avocados and lemon. Looks like guacamole, fine films and perhaps some spirits will be the order of the day.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 17, 2020)

Buka said:


> Rainy, cold, day off. Already went to the gym....so I went to the back yard and picked some Jurassic avocados and lemon. Looks like guacamole, fine films and perhaps some spirits will be the order of the day.
> 
> View attachment 22662


Sounds like a plan. A damned good plan, at that.


----------



## pdg (Jan 17, 2020)

Buka said:


> Rainy, cold, day off. Already went to the gym....so I went to the back yard and picked some Jurassic avocados and lemon. Looks like guacamole, fine films and perhaps some spirits will be the order of the day.
> 
> View attachment 22662



If avocado and lemons grow in your garden I would contest your use of the term "cold"


----------

