# Shito-ryu?



## Angus (Sep 13, 2002)

Can anyone tell me anything about Shito-ryu? I mean as far as approaches, abundance/lack of forms, etc etc. Just anything. I used to study American Karate and want to get back into it, so I don't know if Shito-ryu is going to be similiar enough. Thank you.


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## H@pkid0ist (Sep 14, 2002)

A good friend of mine is a 4th in shito-ryu. It is ine of Japans 4 major systems. I don't know a whole lot about it myself but when they competed they either won a lot or got in trouble for agressive techniques.


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## kenmpoka (Sep 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Angus _
> 
> *Can anyone tell me anything about Shito-ryu? I mean as far as approaches, abundance/lack of forms, etc etc. Just anything. I used to study American Karate and want to get back into it, so I don't know if Shito-ryu is going to be similiar enough. Thank you.  *


Shito-Ryu was founded by Kenwa Mabuni (1889-1957). He trained in "Shuri-te" under Ankoh Itosu and "Naha-te" under Kanryo Higaonna. Shito-Ryu is the combination of these two systems. Shito-Ryu is one the four major systems of Karate in Japan. Others being Wado-Ryu, Shotokan, and Goju-Ryu. Mabuni Sensei believed that Kata was the essence of Karate and so his system is rich in Kata. Shito Ryu is the richest system as far as the catalog of Kata goes. He was also heavily influenced by Go Kenki of China, and created exercises based on White Crane techniques learned from him. The system is also rich in Okinawa Weaponry (Kobudo). I think overall, the system teaches close to 50 empty hand and weapon forms.

 :asian:


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## Angus (Sep 14, 2002)

Ah, thank you kenmpoka. That's pretty much what I didn't want to hear.  

If it is heavy in forms (which, while I like for the art sense, I think are a waste of time mostly), it's not for me. I assumed that there was a possibility it might be, because of what I saw when I went past the window of a place, but I wasn't sure. 

Say, you wouldn't happen to be able to tell me a little bit about Wado-ryu and Goju-ryu, would you? I'm much more familiar with Shotokan, which I know is also not for me. I'm just not very adept in the differences of traditional karate. 

Thank you, I do appreciate everyones time!


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 14, 2002)

Their is a great search engine called google for questions like this.

Here are some Shito Ryu links:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=shito+ryu


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## DKI Girl (Sep 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Angus _
> 
> *Ah, thank you kenmpoka. That's pretty much what I didn't want to hear.
> 
> ...



Kata is the foundation for martial arts because the masters created the katas to remember what angle and direction to attack the body to kill their opponents.   Maybe you just haven't seen yet what kata can do for you.  It's not there for show.

dki girl


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## arnisador (Sep 14, 2002)

I know we have at least one Shito-ryu stylist here. I remember because the filter originally censored _Shito_.


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## kenmpoka (Sep 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Angus _
> 
> *Ah, thank you kenmpoka. That's pretty much what I didn't want to hear.
> 
> ...


Wado-ryu was founded by Hironori Ohtska, one of the earlier student's of Gichin Funakoshi (when he was teaching Ryukyu Kempo, Toudi-jutsu, or Karate (Tang hand)). Their kata consist of the original
forms that Funakoshi brought over from Okinawa.(5 pinan, 3 Naihanchi, Seisan, Wansu, Chinto, Jutte, Jion, passai, Kusanku). Ohtska, already an accomplished Jujutsu teacher (Yoshin-ryu), combined the two systems that is known as Wado-ryu. The most apparent characteristic of this system is that their strong side is always forward.

Goju-ryu was founded by Chojun Miyagi. His teachers were Ryuko Aragaki and Kanryo Higaonna.  He also trained in China. Again another Kata based system which also emphasizes body hardening exercises. The system teaches two pomotional forms (Gekisai I,II) plus 10 Naha-te kata.

I guess you better look elsewhere since all these systems like other chinese, Okinawan and Japanese based martial arts, transmit their techniques and principles through kata.


:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> 
> *
> Wado-ryu was founded by Hironori Ohtska, one of the earlier student's of Gichin Funakoshi (when he was teaching Ryukyu Kempo, Toudi-jutsu, or Karate (Tang hand)). Their kata consist of the original forms that Funakoshi brought over from Okinawa.(5 pinan, 3 Naihanchi, Seisan, Wansu, Chinto, Jutte, Jion, passai, Kusanku). Ohtska, already an accomplished Jujutsu teacher (Yoshin-ryu), combined the two systems that is known as Wado-ryu. The most apparent characteristic of this system is that their strong side is always forward.
> *



That is actually a bit incorrect. Their right side is kept forward to "protect their heart".......according to them anyway. 
Ohtsuka was, I am told, was only a student of Funakoshi's for a mere 14 months, he did however study in Okinawa with other teachers.
If you look at some of the Pinan kata in Wado you will see some very odd ovements not found in Funakoshi lineage styles or in any other styles which leads me to beleive that Ohtsuka "tweaked" them or possible didn't learn them correctly.


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## kenmpoka (Sep 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


Ryushikan, I was told about the right side by Sensei Yoshiaki Ajari. As far as the differences in the kata, that goes to Shu Ha Ri. Every teacher puts his own signature on the system (God forbid if he is non-Japanese). Kyokushin also does Pinan with a bit of different movements, and so does Shindo Jinen-ryu and the list goes on.  But The FOUNDERS all studied with Funakoshi at some point. Btw, Ohtsuka got his shodan from Funakoshi.

 :asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> 
> *
> Ryushikan, I was told about the right side by Sensei Yoshiaki Ajari. As far as the differences in the kata, that goes to Shu Ha Ri. Every teacher puts his own signature on the system (God forbid if he is non-Japanese). Kyokushin also does Pinan with a bit of different movements, and so does Shindo Jinen-ryu and the list goes on.  But The FOUNDERS all studied with Funakoshi at some point. Btw, Ohtsuka got his shodan from Funakoshi.
> ...



I was told the thing about the right side (heart) from Ohtsuka's son. 

Shu Ha Ri is something far different than what we are talking about here.


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## Zoran (Sep 14, 2002)

Does anyone know anything about Shukokai. I've seen school websites that say they teach Shukokai and some organization that use "Shito Ryu Shukokai" in the title. Is it essentially the same system as Shito Ryu?


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## kenmpoka (Sep 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


RyuShiKan,

Though we are getting off the track from the original string, You are quoting a hearsay from the Soke of the system and I am from a senior Instructor aka as #2 man. "It does not matter who is right but who is left"--Ed Parker.LOL.

Also so we are on the same page, Shu Ha Ri in a simplistic way as I understand it, refers to the three stages of acquiring mastery, allowing growth and innovation.  
As you know, Shu, means to correctly copy all techniques of one's teacher, Ha denotes the liberty for a student to develop his own version of executing techniques based on one's physical stature and individual understanding of Karate, and finally Ri, the transcendence state or mastery level, at which the student becomes a teacher himself.

Based on these principles of learning and experiences, founders of each system apply their own signature movement and understanding of particular techniques to their system's kata, kihon, bunkai and oyo bunkai. So this is one of the reasons that we find variations in respective elements of each system. Of course bogus and incorrect translations are often seen as well.

Now, I am not sure if your reference to Wado-ryu's way of performing kata or Ohtsuka's learning years was in a positive or negetive way, but bare in mind that over the years Funakoshi made changes to his system himself, through inputs from other teachers such a Kenwa Mabuni(his Sempai from Itosu era), his son and senior students. Over the years his version of Toudi-Jutsu that was introduced to Japan in 1922, became known as Shotokai, Shotokan and even Nihon Karate kyokai or the "Kyokai karate".

Lastly, I always consider myself first a student and then a teacher. I have been fortunate to have had great instructors and have studied with such notables as Oshima, Nishiyama, Kanazawa, Osaka, and Sharifi for the past 20 years. Though my concentration in Japanese karate has been in Shotokan, I have also spent considerable mat time with other teachers and friends in Shorin-ryu, Shito-ryu, Wado and very little in GoJu. I do not follow the herd mentality and always put logic over tradition. I would appreciate in the future, if you would expand on your comments and not follow up with vague one liners. I am always willing to learn from you and others. The only reason I mention this is that you do come accross as The know it all and arrogant at time and I am sure that you are not in person.

I hope that you don't take my comments as attacks, and that we can carry a civil discussion. 

As always,

Respectfully,

:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> 
> *
> You are quoting a hearsay from the Soke of the system and I am from a senior Instructor aka as #2 man. "It does not matter who is right but who is left"--Ed Parker.LOL. *



I actually I am quoting the son of the founder of the style and the person responsible for the right side front stance...........his father also wrote the reason why he chose to have the right side front as well. 



> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> 
> *Also so we are on the same page, Shu Ha Ri in a simplistic way as I understand it, refers to the three stages of acquiring mastery, allowing growth and innovation.
> As you know, Shu, means to correctly copy all techniques of one's teacher, Ha denotes the liberty for a student to develop his own version of executing techniques based on one's physical stature and individual understanding of Karate, and finally Ri, the transcendence state or mastery level, at which the student becomes a teacher himself.*



Actually we are not on the same page.
This has to be one of the most misquoted concepts in MA today. 
You got the Shu part right but the Ha part is a bit off. Ha doesn't give you creative license to change what you have learned but rather to expand on what you were taught. Using the basic principles that were taught in Shu. 
I sometimes ask my teacher what a particular piece of kata means and his answer is "what do you think it means?" Sort of Freudian psychobable if you will. He wants me to discover the techniques based on what I already know. The reason being people often remember things they themselves "discover" rather than things they are spoon fed. He is trying to develop my Ha side as it were. When Shu Ha Ri first came out teachers never handed their students all the information on a platter. they were given the basics and "led" to discover the rest. Ha doesn't mean changing the basics........i.e. Kata in this case, it means discover the basics even deeper not changing them.
Ohtsuka changed the basics (kata), why is not known. Perhaps he remembered them wrong or didn't learn them correctly to begin with, maybe he just thought he knew more and decided to change them. Who knows, for whatever reason he changed them it was not due to Ha. 
Ri is goes back to Ha in that it is the techniques one has discovered from a long study of the techniques and discover the deeper meaning of Shu.
In all reality there is no such thing as "mastery" since that would signify and end, and there is no end to learning in the MA and therefore is no Ri.
It is like peeling a never ending onion.






> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> 
> *Based on these principles of learning and experiences, founders of each system apply their own signature movement and understanding of particular techniques to their system's kata, kihon, bunkai and oyo bunkai. So this is one of the reasons that we find variations in respective elements of each system. Of course bogus and incorrect translations are often seen as well.*



I think we find variations because of egos and lack of true understanding. 
Why change a technique if it works?...........why fix something if it is not broken?
People do this because they lack understanding of what they are looking at.



> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> 
> *  ........................ over the years Funakoshi made changes to his system himself, through inputs from other teachers such a Kenwa Mabuni(his Sempai from Itosu era), his son and senior students. Over the years his version of Toudi-Jutsu that was introduced to Japan in 1922, became known as Shotokai, Shotokan and even Nihon Karate kyokai or the "Kyokai karate".*



Funakoshi had little to do with the JKA and the present way kata are done in it.
Funakoshi also changed kata for several reasons, not the least of which was to make them easier to learn. quite often the people that studied with Funakoshi and then started their own styles did not care for Funakoshi........Ohtsuka and Oyama two name two. I am pretty sure why Oyama's kata look different than Funakoshi's..............Oyama didn't like kata.




> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> 
> * I would appreciate in the future, if you would expand on your comments and not follow up with vague one liners. I am always willing to learn from you and others. The only reason I mention this is that you do come accross as The know it all and arrogant at time and I am sure that you are not in person.*



You know what I find "arrogant" and "exasperating" to no end is people that post on these boards that:
1) ..... have never been to Japan or Asia and then proceed to inform me of their in-depth knowledge (more often than not inaccurate) of the place I have lived for the 17 years.
2)..... have never met and spoken with (sometimes in great detail) to the MA people that I have but only read about them in a book or gotten hearsay/rumor/10th hand information and when they are corrected by me or anyone else they get defensive and call me "arrogant".

Maybe I do seem like a "arrogant know it all" to folks on this board, but it is probably due to the things I have accomplished in the MA, the fact that I was the first, last and only foreigner allowed to teach at the Nippon Budokan as well as a few other places, worked for the Japanese Parliament, the noted masters that I personally know and have trained with, the decades of study and sweat I have done, the copious amounts of BS I have had to put up with to get where I am.............. However the folks that actually know me would tell you otherwise, since they know what I have been through to get to the understanding that I have of the MA. They would also tell you that when I answer a question or discuss something about Budo I don't "sugar coat it". You don't like my answers .........fine.........you can disagree.
I post on this board and several others and some of the members live in Japan. Every once in a while we get together for some training and a few beers afterwards. One of the commnets I often hear about people on these boards that make comments like, "arrogant know it all" and so on is "They just don't get it". 

As far as "expanding" my comments go..............this is not a High School English class and I am not being graded by you............so ....... I will not. If you don't understand them or have a question just ask. 




> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> 
> *
> You are quoting a hearsay from the Soke of the system and I am from a senior Instructor aka as #2 man. "It does not matter who is right but who is left"--Ed Parker.LOL. *



Personally I find your comment here a bit "arrogant". Here I have stated what the founder of the style told his son who later told me what he had in mind when decided to do stand right side front............you make it sound as if it has no more weight than had I read it in some crappy MA rag like BlackBelt instead of hearing from the man that is now in charge of Wado.


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 15, 2002)

As far as Shito ryu is concerned, there are many good places on the web to find information.

Basically if you use any search engine you can find info on almost any style out there.......just takes a little leg work.
Since Shito Ryu is one of the bigger styles there is a lot. 

As for Shukokai:

http://www.shito-ryu-shukokai.at/karate-shukokai/index1.htm

http://www.shukokai-europe.org/

http://www.sku.org.uk/

http://www.sku.org.uk/

http://www.shukokai-canada.com/



From one of their websites:

"In 1609 a newly unified Japan invaded Okinawa and crushed all resistance.  The Japanese victors then imposed a ban on all but their own warrior elite on the carrying of weapons.  As a result the people of the island developed a system of unarmed fighting from which present day Karate has evolved.  Alongside the practice of unarmed fighting skills, the people of Okinawa perfected various weapon systems based on the combative use of everyday implements such as rice fails, grind stone handles and sickles.  Even the humble walking staff became a deadly weapon in the hands of an expert.  All of these systems have survived to the present day and are practised in Dojos (training halls) throughout the world."



I hope I am not being too much of an "arrogant know it all" when I say their history needs a bit of updating.
Okinawans already had a weapons ban 100 years before the first Japanese invasion. Karate (Tode) was in Okinawa long before the Japanese ever arrived so it was not developed as a result of the Japanese occupation.


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## kenmpoka (Sep 15, 2002)

RyuShiKan,

I am glad you got everything off your chest.

First off, I knew you were quoting the inheritor of the system (Wado). I was just merely offering another explanation that I was told by a senior instructor.

Second off, though you are correct about your understanding of ShuHaRi, in case of
Ha, at times because of deeper study of elements, with proper reasonning and research, changes and logical interpretations are expected.

Third off, I do agree with you in case of egoes relating to variations at times, but not always. Just because a technique works for one or even hundreds centuries ago, this should not stand in the way of progress and development of new ideas and techniques.

As far as funakoshi's role in the development and expantion of kata catalog in various factions, like I said, included inputs from other teachers, Gico Funakoshi, and senior students, at times with his blessing and some other without.
The result in some cases were simplications and others actual improvenment of techniques and principles.

Why Oyama and Ohtsuka made changes are not real important to me, and i do not care for the way some things are done in these systems either.     

FYI, I have spent time in Japan and have done internships at Hoitsugan and others. I did not call you "arrogant" but just merley said that you come accross as such by the way you write and answer some of your posts. 

I have also been through thick and thin, paid with sweat, blood and bruises and proven myself to my counterparts and overcome the "gijin" mentality and remarks.  So please do not assume that you are the only one. I do appreciate your accomplishments in the land of the racist and your indepth knowledge of Karate.  Again, I just ask if you could be a bit more elaborate in your answers just like you have been so we can have a healthy discussion. 

If I have offended you in anyway, I do opologize in advance.

 :asian:


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## Matt Stone (Sep 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> 
> *Second off, though you are correct about your understanding of ShuHaRi, in case of Ha, at times because of deeper study of elements, with proper reasonning and research, changes and logical interpretations are expected.*



Shouldn't these kinds of interpretations be reflected in the training of _bunkai_ instead of changing the forms?  There can be multiple understandings of movements in forms (to include the "orthodox" understandings of the applications), but the "reference book" that the form represents should still keep the movements as they were originally intended...



> *Third off, I do agree with you in case of egoes relating to variations at times, but not always. Just because a technique works for one or even hundreds centuries ago, this should not stand in the way of progress and development of new ideas and techniques.*



AND



> *Gico Funakoshi, and senior students, at times with his blessing and some other without.  The result in some cases were simplications and others actual improvenment of techniques and principles.*



I was training yesterday with a friend of mine who held a senior ranking in my system (he was a black sash when I started) and is now a 4th dan under Sherm Harrill of Isshin-ryu.  We were discussing _kata_ as they are practiced within Isshin-ryu, and he was explaining to me the way in which different Isshin-ryu groups practice and break down the forms in completely different ways...  In one particular explanation of a section of a form, he showed me the way Shimabuku (sp?) taught the form, and the way the other group performs the movement.  He then showed me the "orthodox" break down, and the way in which the other group performs the break down, and the actual application was incredibly flawed both offensively and defensively in the non-standard method...

Perhaps the instructor from the other group applied his Ha and modified the form.  Maybe he learned it wrong.  Either way, it is ineffective.  However, his idea has validity, and perhaps as a modification to the _bunkai_ it could still hold water.  But as a literal interpretation of the form, it is worthless...

Just 2 yen from a beginning karate student...

Gambarimasu.


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *
> Shouldn't these kinds of interpretations be reflected in the training of bunkai instead of changing the forms? There can be multiple understandings of movements in forms (to include the "orthodox" understandings of the applications), but the "reference book" that the form represents should still keep the movements as they were originally intended...
> *




You are correct. You don't change the "reference book" just because you don't understand it. If I don't understand something in the Bible, Koran or Tora I don't scratch it out and say "eh useless.......I think it should be this way". I try to understand it. Kata is the same.
Bunkai and application for movements will have several meanings. These can be various "tweaks" on the same application or they can be applied to different forms of attack.............a grab instead of a punch and so on. 


This might be better addressed in it's own thread since we seem to be barging in on the Shito thread with our discussion.


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