# MMA and the BEST MAs



## InvisibleFist (Mar 7, 2005)

It seems that the arts of choice for MMA fighters are:

 Wrestling
 Boxing
 Aisian Jacket Wrestling (Judo, Ju-jitsu, Sambo)
 Muay Thai. 

 Does that mean that these are the Most effective arts?  

 If so this is surprising to me.  Boxers are good punchers, but they don't use chops or palm strikes.  Don't closed fist strikes leave you vulnerable to broken hands?


----------



## Shogun (Mar 8, 2005)

It doesnt mean they are the most effective arts, but it shows they are most effective under MMA rules. in MMA/NHB they use gloves, so clenched fists dont break as easily, and they can even punch harder. Knife hands and palm strikes are utilized by the more diverse fighters. josh thompson KO'ed Grappling king Gerald strebent with a Huge downward chop.

In MMA you have to be able to takedown your opponent (wrestling,Judo, sambo)
punch and kick him (Muay Thai, boxing, Kickboxing)
control him (wrestling, JJ)
and submit him (BJJ,sambo, catch)


----------



## Shawn C (Mar 8, 2005)

The most effective target for the chop (the neck) is illegal to strike in MMA. 

I don't know why palm strikes aren't used more. I guess if you have a gloved fist, more people prefer to use that.


----------



## Shogun (Mar 8, 2005)

palm strikes are pretty effective on the ground where a punch can be hard to throw. the gracies used "slaps" to open up the neck area for choking back in the day.


----------



## FearlessFreep (Mar 9, 2005)

Most palm-hand strikes we use are to the face, specifically the nose; the idea being to break the nose.  Not sure if it's legal or not.

Palm-heel stikes can be pretty bad in the same way as heel strikes on some kicks; don't have all the little bones in the hand to give or break if you are off-line in your strike.  They are illegal in olympic-style TKD sparring so we only practice them in a self defense capacity and that's usually to the face


----------



## RMACKD (Mar 9, 2005)

It would be hard to say any art is good for mma because all the arts have to be changed and modified for mma. I will give examples in later posts.


----------



## RSJ (Mar 10, 2005)

It's a simple equation with the arts used in MMA. Kickboxing= Striking, Wrestling/sambo= clinch control and takedowns, Ground control and submissions= BJJ and/or Sambo. Most fighters come from one background, thus they are particularily good at one thing, but are skilled in all of them. Wrestling wouldn't be effective without striking to setup a shot or a clinch and BJJ wouldn't be effective without wrestling/sambo takedowns to setup ground positions. They're pretty much all interdependant.


----------



## Andrew Green (Mar 10, 2005)

Basically they all got one thing in common.

 Full force competitive formats.

 Imagine doing wrestling where you had to "pull" your throws and put them down "gentally".  It wouldn't make that list of yours anymore 

 They are also all based on "natural skills"  people naturally punch, throw the odd kick and wrestle.  We don't naturally jump spin kick someone in the head 

 Given time to mature the only system that will work in MMA will be actually training in MMA as a primary method, and branching out into others for specialized aspects as needed.  Kind of like Muay Thai fighters doing some boxing to give them an edge in punching.


----------



## RMACKD (Mar 10, 2005)

Each art included in mma needs to be adapted to it. For example kickboxing does not allow takedowns. That means the stance needs to be wider, hooks and uppercuts are used less, kicks to the leg are primarily used, pretty much all the tatics of strategies are eliminated, kicks are modified as well as other techniqes, ect and eventually the standup game of mma after these modifications is a completely different thing than kickboxing. In my next posts I will explain on the other changes of the mma game.


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Mar 10, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Basically they all got one thing in common.
> 
> Full force competitive formats.
> 
> ...


You hit the money on the head. Many MA's whine about their art not getting a fair shake, and then wander back in to do some more point fighting. Boxers and muay thai practitioners are so effective because they beat each other all day long. They punch full power, and know how to get punched. They are used to delivering powerful strikes from multiple angles to other human beings. That makes them lethal in the ring and in the street. Ditto with judo and juijitsu, they are done in training full power and full speed. 

I guess play practicing the "five finger palm exploding heart death technique" isn't the same as hard core training in a realistic system.


----------



## Andrew Green (Mar 10, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> I guess play practicing the "five finger palm exploding heart death technique" isn't the same as hard core training in a realistic system.


 Exactly, everyone knows kung fu is just for the movies.  Now where can I sign up to trian in whatever it was the ninja turtles did?


----------



## brothershaw (Mar 12, 2005)

1.Muy Thai, Sombo, BJJ,Boxing, etc are the most used and most successful in UFC, K1, Pride etc not because they are the "BEST" MAs but because they are the best for the particular venues.  ( I am NOT saying they arent effective or useful for self defense.)

2. If they allowed sticks and knives in UFC, Pride etc then you would see guys using arnis/escrima/ kali, would that then make the FMAs the "BEST".

3. In a given sporting environment the athlete is going to do what gives him the highest percentage/ chance of winning. If its a boxing match it wont be BJJ, if its UFC it wont be boxing.

4.BJJ , Muy Thai, etc DO have the advantages of being able to practice them practically all out, as much as you want and a shorter time to become effective compared to other arts.

5. Its really a question of what you want to do .


----------



## Shogun (Mar 12, 2005)

> If they allowed sticks and knives in UFC, Pride etc then you would see guys using arnis/escrima/ kali, would that then make the FMAs the "BEST".


Exactly. You add rules, and there is always gonna be a particular area that works better. 
Grappling rules- BJJ, Sambo, Catch, etc
NHB - combo of boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, wrestling, etc
Knife fighting - Kali, Arnis, Sayoc, 
Multiples fighting, possibly with weapons - Ninjutsu, Koryu Jujutsu
1 on 1 with swords - Iaido, Kendo, Krabi Krabong
Kickboxing - TKD, Muay Thai

each art has a specific area in which, under rules, may work better. All martial arts have the potential of being street effective however. as long as they are used in the proper manner.


----------



## JDenz (Mar 12, 2005)

In todays MMA it is all about the fighters not really there styles.  No one uses one style anymore.  For better or worse NHB is now a style.  These guys train moves just to use in the cage and ring.  How many arts teach you how to work yourself back to your feet off of a cage.


----------



## Shawn C (Mar 12, 2005)

"_How many arts teach you how to work yourself back to your feet off of a cage._"

That is applicable beyond the cage. You could be pinned up against a car or a wall of some kind on the street, and need to get back to your feet or reverse the position.


----------



## JDenz (Mar 12, 2005)

I am not talking about being pushed up agianst the cadge standing up.  I am talking about having your head squished up agianst it with a guy in your guard.  No wall moves like a cage, or will cut you like a cage.


----------



## thepanjr (Mar 13, 2005)

Shawn C said:
			
		

> The most effective target for the chop (the neck) is illegal to strike in MMA.
> 
> I don't know why palm strikes aren't used more. I guess if you have a gloved fist, more people prefer to use that.


Really i like palm heal strikes. they should use palm heal strikes. The most effective part for choping is the neck. why is that


----------



## Shawn C (Mar 13, 2005)

"_No wall moves like a cage, or will cut you like a cage._"

The cage won't cut you. If it there were a risk of getting cut by the cage, the Nevada State Athletic Commission wouldn't approve the Octagon for competition.


"_The most effective part for choping is the neck. why is that_"

The most vulnerable targets for the chop are there. You can knock a guy out, or even kill him, by chopping to the side of the neck or to the throat.


----------



## ace (Mar 13, 2005)

Shawn C said:
			
		

> "_No wall moves like a cage, or will cut you like a cage._"
> 
> The cage won't cut you. If it there were a risk of getting cut by the cage, the Nevada State Athletic Commission wouldn't approve the Octagon for competition.
> 
> ...



I am a Cage Fighter & have seen may people get cut by the Cage.


----------



## Shogun (Mar 14, 2005)

Its happened, im sure. but most cages are rubber coated. However, its not like barbed wire, it wont cut you everytime.


----------



## RMACKD (Mar 14, 2005)

To simply think of mma as a combination of the arts mentioned would in my opinion be a big mistake. MMA is its own sport and striking, takedowns, and ground grappling in mma is completely different than boxing, wrestling and bjj. This article provides a short description http://www.grapplearts.com/Sport-Specific-MMA-Training.htm Boxing has different gloves does not allow takedowns, has a different strategy ect. A lot different that hitting in a mma match. Wrestling does not have strikes so a lot of takedowns can not be used, the strategy changes, the stance changes, setting up the takedowns changes ect, bjj does not allow striking on the ground so a lot of holds become obsolete, the strategy changes, set ups change, the guard game is completely different ect. I could go on and on. There are also many situations unique to mma like on person being on the ground and the other one hovering above launching kicks and strikes, striking on the ground, striking in the clinch with takedowns and many others. Soon people will realize that mma is its own thing and simply mashing wrestling, bjj, and striking together does not help. If you want to know good styles for mma try CSW, Shooto, Igor V's Combat Kickboxing, Pancrase, Pankration, Vale tudo, Ruas Vale Tudo and school that specializes in mma training. Once everyone gets the message  will the  still be asked? Yes but only people will be comparing mma styles like CSW and Shooto and arguing which of those is better instead of saying that mt is the best for striking, wrestling for takedowns, and bjj for ground work. The argument will never end.


----------

