# This guy says Wing Chun sucks, what would you reply?



## bezzerk (Dec 1, 2016)

Hello! I came across this guy's channel on y-tube. He rants about all kinds of MAs and says they don't work.
He also says Wing Chun is useless. He says that wing chun only works against other wing chun guys.
He also claims that the wing chun stance sucks and that by standing this way you invite being hit to the head.

Can you take a few mins and listen what he says and then comment on it?

What concerns me is that he says wing chun only works against other wing chun guys. This argument
might hold water. After all how are you supposed to pressure test your wing chun? The only way to test
it would be to go to a boxing class or a jiu jitsu class and then challenge the people there.

I doubt that wing chun schools invite fighters from other martial arts to visit them and to fight against their
students to see who'd win. 

How do you guys know that your stuff really works? Do you pick fights every now and then to see if you can actually defend yourself? 

Just think about it. What if you feel that you're good at wing chun and you can defend yourself against everybody in your school and you can do all this stuff, like fighting blind folded, and you really feel confident and then one day you get in a real fight and then you realize that the attacker acts totally different than your wing chun training buddy and suddenly none of the techniques you practiced can even be applied and you are totally shocked and freeze on the spot? That would be a real nightmare.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 1, 2016)

There is a big gap between isolation and death matches.

Mabye somewhere in the middle?


----------



## geezer (Dec 1, 2016)

Wing Chun has strengths and weaknesses like any specialized martial art. But please._.. these two idiots? _From their inane comments, it's obvious that they don't know anything about Wing Chun. If you are going to look for trash about at least dig up something by a credible MMA guy or grappler with legit critiques not _these clowns! _

Decent critiques _have_ been made about Wing Chun pointing out it's lack of a well developed ground game, it's short steps and limited long-range mobility, the tendency of many groups to only train against WC with a resultant vulnerability to other systems such as boxing and MT, and finally, some people decry it's lack of a competitive form of "testing" like MMA, boxing, BJJ, etc. Some progressive WC people have tried to address these concerns and encourage cross training to produce very well rounded martial artists. I've also met some pretty tough characters in more "old-school" WC circles.


----------



## KPM (Dec 1, 2016)

The  guy in the video is an idiot.  Why bother?


----------



## bezzerk (Dec 1, 2016)

So it's an absolute fact that wing chun doesn't work well against boxers????

Do wing chun authorities recognize this or do they simply deny it?

But then how do you deal with this issue? If it's common knowledge then does this mean that any good wing chun instructor should be able to
offer solutions for this?

What if the teacher is 100% traditional and learned from old teachers with a good reputation? Then this would mean that his stuff is authentic
but still outdated.

I thought that the more traditional the better but if traditional wing chun has too many weaknesses for our times then this would mean that learning
authentic wing chun isn't good either.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 1, 2016)

As a measure of the idiocy of the arguments these two fools make, I've marked Drop Bear's post as "agree". He and I don't agree often.

Geezer's spot on.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 1, 2016)

This guy says Wing Chun sucks, what would you reply?

I'd say, you're right..... then they would have that feeling of superiority they so much need, and then they would go away so I would not have to deal with them any longer and I'd have more time to train.

If you know it works what do you care what others say about it and why waste time arguing with them.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 1, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> So it's an absolute fact that wing chun doesn't work well against boxers????
> 
> Do wing chun authorities recognize this or do they simply deny it?
> 
> ...


Every style has weaknesses. Anyone who tells you different is either foolish or lying.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 1, 2016)

It really doesnt matter what some idiot on the Internet thinks.


----------



## bezzerk (Dec 1, 2016)

To me it's simply unsettling when I see or read things like wing chun is useless cause then I think what if they're right?
This scares me.


----------



## Eric_H (Dec 1, 2016)

I'd say I'll consider his opinion just as soon as he moves out of his mum's basement.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 1, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> To me it's simply unsettling when I see or read things like wing chun is useless cause then I think what if they're right?
> This scares me.


Then training in martial arts is not for you.  You don't have the stomach for it.  Find something else to do.

That's not meant as an insult.  Martial arts are not for everybody.  That is ok.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 1, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> So it's an absolute fact that wing chun doesn't work well against boxers????
> 
> Do wing chun authorities recognize this or do they simply deny it?
> 
> ...



Ok. Ultimately training in isolation does not do you any favors. The more people knowlege and skill you have access to the better you will become as a martial artist.

So lets compare chun to boxing. I can go to a boxing gym and spar all their guys. Or do classes and gain all their knowlege. Or train with experts. I can spar the coach.

 If I towel up everybody in the room. I will give my skill set to those guys. If they towel me up they give the skill set to me.

It is that social dynamic that gives those martial arts the advantage. Because It makes everybody better.

Wing chun does not have that generally. And stagnates because of it.

Easy fix.

Get out more.


----------



## bezzerk (Dec 1, 2016)

But I want to learn something. But at the same time I want to learn something which really works.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 1, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> As a measure of the idiocy of the arguments these two fools make, I've marked Drop Bear's post as "agree". He and I don't agree often.
> 
> Geezer's spot on.



I am sure I will fix that.


----------



## bezzerk (Dec 1, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Wing chun does not have that generally. And stagnates because of it.



This sucks.

But how is this supposed to work? I mean you can't just go to other schools and participate in a few classes to exchange some knowledge.
I don't think that the teachers want stuff like that. This would disrupt everything if every few weeks a guest comes in to do some sparring.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 1, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> This sucks.
> 
> But how is this supposed to work? I mean you can't just go to other schools and participate in a few classes to exchange some knowledge.
> I don't think that the teachers want stuff like that. This would disrupt everything if every few weeks a guest comes in to do some sparring.



doest disrupt us. Have an open mat sparring day.


----------



## bezzerk (Dec 1, 2016)

That's good but I doubt that all schools do this.

What if you find no school which does this? 

Imagine the teacher allows other students to come in and then his students always get beaten up

then after a while they'd leave and join the other school. That's taking a huge financial risk for the teacher.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 1, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> To me it's simply unsettling when I see or read things like wing chun is useless cause then I think what if they're right?
> This scares me.


When I was 11 years old, my brother in law taught me an open hand form and a staff form. One day I got into a fight and I didn't know how to use what I had learned. I asked my brother in law. He stopped teaching me any more forms and forced me to train "1 step 3 punches" for the next 3 years. Many years later, I found out that the WC "chain punches" is very similar to what I did in those 3 years.

If your fists can fly so fast toward your opponent's face one after another, what else do you need?


----------



## yak sao (Dec 1, 2016)

WC, from its beginning,  was developed to fight against other styles of fighting. Initially this was probably restricted to hung ga, long fist systems and the like.

Now fast forward a century or two.
In order for WC to stay true to the spirit of its origins, we need to continue....or for some of us,  maybe even resurrect this tradition.

Pressure test. If someone in your WC group has previous MA experience, pick his brain , work with him every chance you get....use him for  the valuable resource he is.
If you don't have anyone in your group that fits that description, then go out and find someone. Find a buddy who likes to wrestle or box or kick and glove up and pressure test.
Don't just practice Martial incest. ....not a pretty sight.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 1, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> That's good but I doubt that all schools do this.
> 
> What if you find no school which does this?
> 
> ...



And now you know the issue with wing chun.


----------



## Danny T (Dec 1, 2016)

As an individual who has training in Wing Chun, Shotokan, Kali, Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling/CSW/some BJJ, MMA and instruct & coach Muay Thai & MMA fighters I am still first and foremost a Wing Chun practitioner. The guys in the video really have do idea as to what they are talking about.


----------



## Kickboxer101 (Dec 2, 2016)

God man grow a pair and get a grip. You're never going to train so why bother watching videos.


----------



## KPM (Dec 2, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> So it's an absolute fact that wing chun doesn't work well against boxers????
> 
> Do wing chun authorities recognize this or do they simply deny it?
> 
> ...



^^^^^^ This is guy is an idiot too!  So why bother???


----------



## marques (Dec 2, 2016)

Ignoring these beings is usually the good thing to do.

I believe most martial arts would / could improve a lot with more interaction between styles.

Everything sucks, to someone.


----------



## marques (Dec 2, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> Imagine the teacher allows other students to come in and then his students always get beaten up
> 
> then after a while they'd leave and join the other school. That's taking a huge financial risk for the teacher.


I think you're right here. Some schools will say no sparring at the beginning, for safety reasons. But it is likely to be a strong reason, too.

It is also a risk for the outsider. If you, the outsider, 'outbox' the 'natives' during sparring, they may start fighting without warning. I got a concussion, recently. Although always sparring with control, slowly, repeating the same tricks...


----------



## Leo89 (Dec 2, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> But I want to learn something. But at the same time I want to learn something which really works.


If this is how you feel, I'd say you're a rather insecure person. 

People bash martial arts all the time, almost every martial art gets the "It sucks/doesn't work/Well I could still Kick your @$$" routine. 

Wing chun works well, or people wouldn't practice it. 

I was told kenpo was useless but I managed to defend myself quite well with it in highschool, now I'm in TKD a martial art that probably gets bashed the most, but does that mean it truly sucks and is ineffective? Hell no it doesn't mean that, it just means that people aren't training right and probably go home and become a couch potato after they train, undoing and undermining most of what they did.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 2, 2016)

Lol that's funny.  I just automatically assumed that the OP was taking about these 2 clowns just from reading the first 2 sentences.

OP these clowns will get under your skin but let them influence you into thinking like they.  The Street in me wants to fight them.  I would fight both of them at the same time just so I wouldn't feel the need to hold back.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 2, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> But I want to learn something. But at the same time I want to learn something which really works.


For the most part. What works and what doesn't work will depend on how well you understand the system and how well you are able to apply that system against other systems.


----------



## blindsage (Dec 2, 2016)

These fools sound exactly like every know-it-all basement nerd on any other subject.  They think they know everything and that their opinions are based in fact, but really they're based in half-assed understanding of pretty much the universe.

I've run into a few young guys like this.  When I tell them my 270 lbs self does Taiji and Bagua, they aren't nearly so apt to dismiss what I do to my face.  Always leaves me wondering, so where is your superior systems when you're just intimidated by a fat Taiji guy?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 2, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> This sucks.
> 
> But how is this supposed to work? I mean you can't just go to other schools and participate in a few classes to exchange some knowledge.
> I don't think that the teachers want stuff like that. This would disrupt everything if every few weeks a guest comes in to do some sparring.


Honest question. Are you Kehcorpz under a new name? I am assuming no because your grammar is much better, but from the threads you've posted/questions you've asked so far, I'm sensing similar issues. 

Ignoring the attacks on his grammar, or people just making fun of him, it may help you to read through those posts as the (helpful) answers there will probably help you.

But please, for the love of God, don't reply to any of them. I don't know if he gets email notifications, and I don't feel like having him come back to the site.


----------



## Chester Wright (Dec 2, 2016)

Wing Chun has a lot of principles that translate well to a lot of other arts. However it is very limited when it comes to its effectiveness I feel in an actually fight against a trained fighter. Its always good to expand your knowledge and take what is useful from different arts, but at the end of the day if you train Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, Judo, Jiu Jitsu, Sambo, Kickboxing, or MMA you are training to legitimately dismantle a human being.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 3, 2016)

It bothers me for the long fist system not emphasize enough on round house kick. It also bothers me for the WC system not emphasize enough on hook punch (or haymaker), a very powerful tool.


----------



## lansao (Dec 3, 2016)

yak sao said:


> WC, from its beginning,  was developed to fight against other styles of fighting. Initially this was probably restricted to hung ga, long fist systems and the like.
> 
> Now fast forward a century or two.
> In order for WC to stay true to the spirit of its origins, we need to continue....or for some of us,  maybe even resurrect this tradition.
> ...



Very well said!

~ Alan


----------



## Buka (Dec 3, 2016)

I read the title of the thread and wanted to say - "I wouldn't reply, I don't speak to idiots."

But, then I clicked on the actual post - tada! Made my day. I've grown to love these two guys! (a guilty pleasure, what can I say?)

As for Wing Chun, I've known some Wing Chun guys, some of who kicked my butt. One of my teachers was a JKD/Wing Chun man, and everybody, from every style, came to his school and banged the hell out of each other, boxers, grapplers, kickers, everybody. It was really good stuff. 
How did they spar? Any way they wanted to.


----------



## Andrew Green (Dec 3, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> What concerns me is that he says wing chun only works against other wing chun guys.



I couldn't make it through the video, don't have the patience for those guys at the moment apparently.

Before you can decide if something is good or bad you need to put it into some sort of criteria.  Boxing sucks in a wrestling match, BJJ sucks in a Muay Thai fight, etc.  

But regardless, there is something to that point.  All styles are going to suffer from it too some extent.  You are going to get best at fighting against the people you train with daily, and chances are they all train the same style as you.  The rise of MMA was sort of a response to that in a sense as it put style against style.  If you want to be perfectly honest it was slightly rigged in that the Gracie's trained to fight against other styles and had a fair bit of experience doing so.  

There are most likely things in Wing Chun that are most useful against another Wing Chun person though.  Same could be said about pretty much any style though.

If you like Wing Chun and it suits your needs and goals, rock on.  If it doesn't find something that does and do that.  Otherwise is't just hockey players saying basketball sucks.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 3, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> Hello! I came across this guy's channel on y-tube. He rants about all kinds of MAs and says they don't work.



Here's the thing... there's no evidence that either of them have any significant degree of training or experience in any MA. One claims to have  a KKW 4th Dan, but a check on the KKW web site shows him as being only a 2nd Poom.
So, basically, they're talking out their asses about stuff they don't really understand.


----------



## SOD-WC (Dec 3, 2016)

who the hell are those 2 clowns, i didnt make it past 1.5 mins? These guys dont understand the WC system and have only been watching youtube videos for reference. they mention WC is immobile, i think thats because they just see the first form which is only training. Bezzerk best thing is to move on and forget about them. Do you really think any MA master would record himself on youtube effectivly taking someone out?

Bezzerk if you really believe WC doesnt work, how about you go with another martial art? if you have doubts in ur heart even if u take up WC, u wont excel so why bother and waste time?

personally i think WC trainers will take longer to be proficient than other arts. (besides tai chi, cause its harder for me), but too many times in WC the students only learn a bit and try to prove themselves.


----------



## lansao (Dec 4, 2016)

Reply "It sucks as much as you do."

~ Alan


----------



## KabutoKouji (Dec 12, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It bothers me for the long fist system not emphasize enough on round house kick.



In the Longfist style I practice (YMAA) there are I think literally no turning kicks/roundhouses - I come from an ITF TKD background and I asked about it specifically - there is a type of quarter the angle (in terms of knee angle in relation to the ground) kick, but it is designed to be done upwards at the base of the rib cage. 

Then again, certainly rear leg roundhouses expose the groin for a good bit, and in the style there seems to be a major emphasis on always protecting that area.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 12, 2016)

KabutoKouji said:


> In the Longfist style I practice (YMAA) there are I think literally no turning kicks/roundhouses - I come from an ITF TKD background and I asked about it specifically - there is a type of quarter the angle (in terms of knee angle in relation to the ground) kick, but it is designed to be done upwards at the base of the rib cage.
> 
> Then again, certainly rear leg roundhouses expose the groin for a good bit, and in the style there seems to be a major emphasis on always protecting that area.


As I get older, I am less and less a fan of the roundhouse kick.  But that's just me.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 12, 2016)

KabutoKouji said:


> In the Longfist style I practice (YMAA) there are I think literally no turning kicks/roundhouses - I come from an ITF TKD background and I asked about it specifically - there is a type of quarter the angle (in terms of knee angle in relation to the ground) kick, but it is designed to be done upwards at the base of the rib cage.
> 
> Then again, certainly rear leg roundhouses expose the groin for a good bit, and in the style there seems to be a major emphasis on always protecting that area.



In the Shaolin Long Fist Style I use to practice there were roundhouse kicks



Flying Crane said:


> As I get older, I am less and less a fan of the roundhouse kick.  But that's just me.



agreed


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 12, 2016)

KabutoKouji said:


> certainly rear leg roundhouses expose the groin for a good bit, and in the style there seems to be a major emphasis on always protecting that area.


The back leg kick can be set up by the leading leg kick just like the jab, cross combo. When you and your opponent both have right leg forward (uniform stance), the moment that your opponent switches side and moves back, the moment that your back leg round house can go toward his belly.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 12, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> As I get older, I am less and less a fan of the roundhouse kick.  But that's just me.


But it can be good for "health". 60 roundhouse kicks for each leg on heavy bag can be a good work out. Both roundhouse kick and hay-maker require body rotation. IMO, anything that require the whole body workout can be good.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 12, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But it can be good for "health". 60 roundhouse kicks for each leg on heavy bag can be a good work out. Both roundhouse kick and hay-maker require body rotation. IMO, anything that require the whole body workout can be good.


They aren't good for your hips if they go above waist level.  And I don't like 'em.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 12, 2016)

KabutoKouji said:


> Then again, certainly rear leg roundhouses expose the groin for a good bit, and in the style there seems to be a major emphasis on always protecting that area.


 It's common to see people get kicked in groin when performing roundhouse kicks.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 13, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's common to see people get kicked in groin when performing roundhouse kicks.



It is common to see people kicked in the groin whenever they move into groin kick range.


----------



## KabutoKouji (Dec 13, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> As I get older, I am less and less a fan of the roundhouse kick.  But that's just me.



practicality wise yeah I do maybe feel that way but I certainly enjoy doing them very much


----------



## KabutoKouji (Dec 13, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> In the Shaolin Long Fist Style I use to practice there were roundhouse kicks
> 
> 
> 
> agreed



interesting, maybe because of YMAAs White Crane viewpoint they're left out because of the groin issue


----------



## KabutoKouji (Dec 13, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The back leg kick can be set up by the leading leg kick just like the jab, cross combo. When you and your opponent both have right leg forward (uniform stance), the moment that your opponent switches side and moves back, the moment that your back leg round house can go toward his belly.


 interesting


----------



## KabutoKouji (Dec 13, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> They aren't good for your hips if they go above waist level.  And I don't like 'em.



yeah I'm 39 now and those 3 years of TKD I did a decade ago certainly didn't do my hips and lower back any favours, but being the idiot I am, I can never resist trying to kick high once again when I'm warmed up and you feel great, then I pay for it the next day


----------



## KabutoKouji (Dec 13, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But it can be good for "health". 60 roundhouse kicks for each leg on heavy bag can be a good work out. Both roundhouse kick and hay-maker require body rotation. IMO, anything that require the whole body workout can be good.



yeah they are very good exercise, however _fully_ extending turning kicks into the air is not great for your knees at all IMO, hyperextension on the sides of the knee tendon things (that's as scientific as I can get )


----------



## KabutoKouji (Dec 13, 2016)

I actually got groin strain myself from TKD haha - from constantly practicing with the knee up and jumping up and down the dojang - seriously I had to wear a groin strap thing  - doctor said it would herniate if I didn't calm down


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 13, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> As I get older, I am less and less a fan of the roundhouse kick.  But that's just me.



Bursitis in my hip. That is all. 


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido


----------



## anerlich (Dec 13, 2016)

Still roundhouse / side / hook kicking at 62. YMMV


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 13, 2016)

QUOTE="gpseymour, post: 1804907, member: 27826"]Bursitis in my hip. That is all.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido[/QUOTE]
When you hip gives you problem have someone punch you in the face without gloves.  That should clear up the bursitis right away.


----------



## wingchun100 (Dec 29, 2016)

yak sao said:


> WC, from its beginning,  was developed to fight against other styles of fighting. Initially this was probably restricted to hung ga, long fist systems and the like.
> 
> Now fast forward a century or two.
> In order for WC to stay true to the spirit of its origins, we need to continue....or for some of us,  maybe even resurrect this tradition.
> ...



The gym where I might start my wing chun class is also host to an MMA class. I am in contact with the guys in that club to mix it up a bit, but in a "let's help each other out" way, not trying to prove what I do is better.


----------



## wayfaring (Jan 3, 2017)

If Mutt and Jeff have something to say maybe they can get off the chairs and demo something.   Or as Eric said out of mum's basement.

I will say this is a typical mindset of those Bullshido forums, which I used to post on but haven't been around for a few years.  They basically are mostly people who train the public classes at a MMA school.  So they center on the only arts as being good are Muy Thai for striking, and a combination of wrestling and BJJ for ground.

Anything else they rail on.  I usually tell them to go take a karate lesson from Steven Wonderboy Thompson.


----------

