# should tai chi forms ........



## tshadowchaser (Jun 20, 2014)

Why do most Tai Chi forms seem so long and should they be done slow or fast.


----------



## ST1Doppelganger (Jun 20, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> Why do most Tai Chi forms seem so long and should they be done slow or fast.



There usually was a  traditional long form of tai chi from most styles that had the foundation of structure & techniques of the system. (Kind of like an encyclopedia) 

The shorter forms were made for competition and then you have to figure there's several different variations of tai chi forms with in different families of tai chi due to the individuals (instructors from back in the day) off take of it. 

But pretty much they are an encyclopedia an are long to improve your insurance. 

I do my tai chi both traditional slow and will do it with a bit if ging on each technique and faster when I'm training for the application purpose. (Some people do this an some dont its all up to you).


----------



## mograph (Jun 20, 2014)

It could be argued that Tai Chi forms started very short (thirteen postures or less), then added more postures to make the form seem more complex and valuable to prospective students. I don't think this is a new or exclusively Western phenomenon, but ... if Master A teaches a short form, and Master B teaches a long form, a lot of people would prefer to study with Master B based on the mistaken impression that he knew more than Master A. (shrug)


----------



## ST1Doppelganger (Jun 20, 2014)

mograph said:


> It could be argued that Tai Chi forms started very short (thirteen postures or less), then added more postures to make the form seem more complex and valuable to prospective students. I don't think this is a new or exclusively Western phenomenon, but ... if Master A teaches a short form, and Master B teaches a long form, a lot of people would prefer to study with Master B based on the mistaken impression that he knew more than Master A. (shrug)



The 13 postures are what originated the different families forms from my understanding. 

I really don't know much about the other styles of tai chi but in yang style style the traditional form is 108 or 103 depending on how you count the steps.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 20, 2014)

All family styles have a long form or 2 and some family styles have fast forms, my flavor of Yang that comes from Tung Ying Chieh has 2 fast forms

The are long and slow to help with coordination and connections. 

13 postures are fighting and it is likely that they came before taiji as we know it today and it is also likely there were more than 13 originally


----------



## East Winds (Jun 20, 2014)

Section 1 of the Traditional Yang Family Long Form contains all the main elements of the form. (the 10 essences and all the energies/jins, particularly the main energy Peng) as well as the basics of learning co-ordinated movement. Section 2 expands on this learning by teaching balance (in the use of kicks) and Section 3 puts 1 and 2 together and also teaches stretching.  I tend to concentrate on Section 1 and have spent over 20 years trying to get it right!!!

Very best wishes

Alistair


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 20, 2014)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> The 13 postures are what originated the different families forms from my understanding.
> 
> I really don't know much about the other styles of tai chi but in yang style style the traditional form is 108 or 103 depending on how you count the steps.


You can condense that 108 move long form into about 54 moves by removing the redundant. The 3rd part of that form do contain a lot of redundancy.


----------



## colemcm (Jun 20, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can condense that 108 move long form into about 54 moves by removing the redundant. The 3rd part of that form do contain a lot of redundancy.


I'd hesitate to remove the redundancy though. It was put there for a reason. In my opinion, the forms should be done fast and slow; there's value in playing the same form at varying speeds.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 20, 2014)

colemcm said:


> I'd hesitate to remove the redundancy though. It was put there for a reason. In my opinion, the forms should be done fast and slow; there's value in playing the same form at varying speeds.



removing the redundancies is what Cheng Manching did, however I am not certain that made it better either


----------



## blindsage (Jun 21, 2014)

In our version of the Yang form from Tchoung Ta Tchen, it was made symmetrical, so much of the redundancy allows you to practice moves on both sides.  It's longer, but I think a little more logical.  I think slow serves a number of purposes, but occasionally doing it fast has benefits as well.


----------



## Elbowgrease (Nov 18, 2014)

I think there are many reasons to practice the form slow, fast, hard, soft, smooth and fluid or rigid. With weight, without weight, etc. Some of it might not immediately present itself. Some of it might not even really be usefull, other than to teach that it is not usefull. There is a saying, slow is smooth, and smooth is fast. As a musician, the first lesson is accuracy before speed. Practice ridiculously slow and you gain clarity. Speed up to early and things become slurred. I think it's ok to slur the form later, but only if you know that you can do it clearly. Learning things from their opposites can really make sense sometimes. Maybe it's not the best way to do it, but it does often make the opposite thing clear. Lately I've been using the iron rings with the yang long form. When I take them off I move much more smooth and light. It helps me focus on what parts of my body are really behind whatever motion is happening, and makes sense of the idea of "sitting on the bones". Practicing blindfolded is pretty interesting. It's really difficult, but I think I can feel things more clearly from the inside then. Try doing the form backwards (like reverse, not just in the other direction if it's an asymmetrical form). I don't know if it's really that useful when applied, but sometimes the way things move then make a little more sense. 
Does that make sense?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 18, 2014)

colemcm said:


> I'd hesitate to remove the redundancy though. It was put there for a reason.



In the 108 moves Taiji form, the "grasping sparrow's tail - Peng, Lu, Ji, An, double pulling, single whip" repeat 8 times. Is it truly necessary to have that many redundant?

6 x 8 = 48
48 - 6 = 42
108 - 42 = 66

If you remove the other 7 repetitions, you can already reduce your 108 moves down to 66 moves. Besides that, the "cloud hand", "brush knee", "diagonal fly", ... all have redundant.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 18, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the 108 moves Taiji form, the "grasping the sparrow's tail - Peng, Lu, Ji, An, double pulling, single whip" repeat 8 times. Is it truly necessary to have that many redundant?
> 
> 6 x 8 = 48
> 48 - 6 = 42
> ...



as arbitrary and silly as that is.....lets see here

just those 6 moves..... left and right which is 6 x 2 which is not 12 so now your at 12 X 8 or 96 but if you look at it from the 13 postures you get 5 directions so forgetting left and right you now have 6 X 5 or 30..... now 30 X 8 = 240 so 240 - 108 is 132 so you are now shorting yourself 132 possibilities... so at 66 you are now at 174 short. The number is arbitrary and there are many different ways to count and some do not count the repeats but still do them so you get numbers in the 90s... heck the Yang family says its 103 and single whip repeats 10 times.... and I think my branch of Yang counts the same form at 96 or 98, but in all honesty my lineage simply calls it the long form and puts no number value on it. and for the record...

You really need to learn more about yang style....


----------



## Elbowgrease (Nov 18, 2014)

Why is a symphony so long?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 18, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> as arbitrary and silly as that is..... You really need to learn more about yang style....


 
The "grasping sparrow's tail - Peng, Lu, Ji, An, double pulling, single whip" repeat 8 times at:

1. 0.10 - 0.20
2. 0.51 - 0.58
3. 1.27 - 1.35
4. 2.31 - 2.38
5. 2.44 - 2.51
6. 3.10 - 3.17
7. 3.49 - 3.57
8. 4.12 - 4.18 






I have taught this Chang Taiji form for more than 35 years. I believe my calculation is correct here. I have no problem to put up my Taiji form online to accept criticism.


----------



## zzj (Nov 18, 2014)

Well, chen style has a long first form and a shorter second form. The first form is done primarily slow with some fast movements while the second form has more fast movements....just saying.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 18, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The "grasping sparrow's tail - Peng, Lu, Ji, An, double pulling, single whip" repeat 8 times at:
> 
> 1. 0.10 - 0.20
> 2. 0.51 - 0.58
> ...



Yeah but that's not Yang style that's Cheng so I fail to see the reason for posting it since your reference was to 108

And I am not criticizing your form, criticizing your logic and use of math to justify 66 forms..... you do not know Traditional Yang style (and I doubt Chen as well) yet you continue to criticize Yang at every turn and yet every criticism simply shows you don't understand it. For example you have stated on more than one occasion that there is no fajin in Yang and that is incredibly wrong.


----------



## Elbowgrease (Nov 18, 2014)

I'm kind of glad there are (however many) grasping the bird's tail, single whip, wave the hands like clouds, etc. If the idea is to practice less things more times (the one punch 10,000 times instead of the 10,000 punches one time each...), I may have done the form 10,000 times by now, I don't know, I think I lost count a while ago. I'm still not totally confident I could grasp the bird's tail properly in combat. I should probably just practice the form 10,000 more times exactly the way it was taught to me. I really don't want to have any part of flame warfare, but I think things might be getting off track. If you want to have less motion and repitition in your form, learn a different form. The entirety of the Yang long form is contained in the first motion of the form. Everything else is useful as well, but there really is a huge wealth of knowledge to be had from every single second spent practicing the form. Whichever form it is. Even if it's practiced incorrectly. As long as one knows that they are learning what is incorrect when they are not moving correctly. 
My opinion.


----------



## mograph (Nov 19, 2014)

I don't see the point in removing repetition (not "redundancy") if the repeated (not "redundant") moves are important and can benefit from extra practice. Would it kill us to practice something a little more? But if the argument is that those moves are of equal importance as the others and should not be emphasized through repetition, then I can see an argument for balancing the number of times the moves appear in the form. 

But I don't see forms as inviolate; to me, _principles_ are inviolate. If I'm doing a form alone and repeat something in the form more than it appears in a canonical form, then where's the harm, as long as principles are followed? Actually (memory psych!) it helps me encode the move more deeply by intervening in that way.

Redundant: (from Google)
- not or no longer needed or useful; superfluous.
- "this redundant brewery has been converted into a library" _(not much of an example, is it?)_
- synonyms:    unnecessary, not required, inessential, unessential, needless, unneeded, uncalled for
- antonyms:    essential, necessary
- (of words or data) able to be omitted without loss of meaning or function.

On another issue, personally, I like symmetry in a form: practicing the same move oriented to the left and right.


----------



## blindsage (Nov 20, 2014)

> I have taught this Chang Taiji form for more than 35 years. I believe my calculation is correct here. I have no problem to put up my Taiji form online to accept criticism.





Xue Sheng said:


> Yeah but that's not Yang style that's Cheng so I fail to see the reason for posting it since your reference was to 108
> 
> And I am not criticizing your form,


Oh, but Xue, can I?  Please, please, please?


----------



## mfinn (Nov 20, 2014)

Indeed.


----------



## Elbowgrease (Nov 20, 2014)

I think I see a lot of leaning going on. 
In my humble opinion. 
Backs look straight, I don't see anyone hunching, but everyone visible in the video looks like they are leaning forward (falling down...). 
Supreme Grand Ultimate Pole. The head holding up heaven. Straight up and down. My Sifu would have pushed me/pulled me straight onto the ground if he saw me move like that. ("You move like a thief, if a grappler sees you do that they're going to take it...")


----------



## mograph (Nov 20, 2014)

blindsage said:


> Oh, but Xue, can I?  Please, please, please?


You take the upper half, I'll take the lower half?


----------



## blindsage (Nov 21, 2014)

Elbowgrease said:


> I think I see a lot of leaning going on.
> In my humble opinion.
> Backs look straight, I don't see anyone hunching, but everyone visible in the video looks like they are leaning forward (falling down...).
> Supreme Grand Ultimate Pole. The head holding up heaven. Straight up and down. My Sifu would have pushed me/pulled me straight onto the ground if he saw me move like that. ("You move like a thief, if a grappler sees you do that they're going to take it...")



Be careful with assuming that 'leaning' is what you see in Taiji forms.  Wu style does this and there is no conflict in the principles when they do it.  You probably don't want to give this 'criticism' to a Wu master.  Not that it isn't a good criticism in this particular case, among plenty of others.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 21, 2014)

blindsage said:


> Be careful with assuming that 'leaning' is what you see in Taiji forms.  Wu style does this and there is no conflict in the principles when they do it.  You probably don't want to give this 'criticism' to a Wu master.  Not that it isn't a good criticism in this particular case, among plenty of others.



Exactly, Wu style has "a lean" but it maintains root and it maintains structure.

Look at Eddie Wu doing one of the Wu forms and you see the lean but the root and structure are always there






And this is what the lean is used for






And he still maintains root and structure


----------



## Elbowgrease (Nov 21, 2014)

I think the video demonstrating the application perfectly illustrates the difference. The guy in the white shirt vs. Wu. If the lean is a reach, no good. If the lean has a purpose, good. As soon as Wu has his arm, he's down. There is a notable difference in all of these between when the practitioner is and isn't leaning. 
I've kind of been kicking myself since I made that post, for a number of reasons, and hoping it wouldn't be taken as simply negative criticism. Maybe I should have rephrased it as a question, is there a reason for the lean I think I see happening, and if so what is the purpose? 
Honest question. 
That was also the thing that immediately struck me, without looking at any other part of the form. 
Sometimes I watch videos of Tai Chi forms and really just can't tell what's going on. Even videos of the Yang long form. Even (some of the very few) videos I can find of people practicing the same version of the Yang long form as me.


----------



## fangjian (Feb 4, 2015)

Tajiquan must be done slowly 99% of the time during training. It needs to be done this way in order to restructure your body. Since training Internal Power is so difficult and non intuitive, it has to be done slowly. In Taijiquan, you are learning what it is to have a 'connected body'. Most people who claim to do/teach Taijiquan, are really just 'doing the same postures but Externally'. I used to be one of them. 

The pace at which to do it and the postures themselves are not arbitrarily chosen. There's a reason it is the way it is. Remember, back in the 50's when 'Contemporary Wushu' was in its infancy, the Standard 24 Form was created. All of the real Taijiquan masters and practitioners criticized the postures as it was a perversion of the Yang postures, and said that basically, 'the changes make it so that you are not really doing The Taijiquan'. 

Like Body Building, Internal Training is a ...'process'. There are no short cuts. Even if you, 'memorize the forms, know a zillion applications for each posture and so on', but don't truly have I  P, you're not really doing Taijiquan. If you actually are ' Pulling Silk ' and all that, if you practice it quickly, you will get hurt. I've done it. I pulled my Dan Tian a few months ago. Hurt for days .


----------



## Buka (Feb 5, 2015)

I have to make some time and find a good Tai Chi instructor. I'm starting to Jones out thinking about Tai Chi.

Sometimes when I come home after a good training class - I want to do Tai Chi. I'm not even sure why, I just do.


----------



## yak sao (Feb 5, 2015)

Buka said:


> I have to make some time and find a good Tai Chi instructor. I'm starting to Jones out thinking about Tai Chi.
> 
> Sometimes when I come home after a good training class - I want to do Tai Chi. I'm not even sure why, I just do.




You've been at it for many a decade. I think it's a natural progression to move to a more internal approach after so many years.


----------



## Buka (Feb 5, 2015)

yak sao said:


> You've been at it for many a decade. I think it's a natural progression to move to a more internal approach after so many years.



That's probably right. 
I used to do Tai Chi back in the seventies when I opened my first dojo. A carpenter who was a Tai Chi instructor did all the carpentry work for us if, in exchange, he could use the dojo in the off hours to teach his Tai Chi class. I said sure, as long as I could take the class. I loved it, did it for six months. Then he moved to Maine to woo a gal. There weren't any other Tai Chi instructors around back then, so it just stopped.

Thought about it ever since. Not as a replacement for what I do, but as something I always liked on it's own, and feel it helps what I do.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Feb 5, 2015)

yak sao said:


> You've been at it for many a decade. I think it's a natural progression to move to a more internal approach after so many years.



 exactly....wait...what...did you just call taijiquan people old 



Buka said:


> That's probably right.
> I used to do Tai Chi back in the seventies when I opened my first dojo. A carpenter who was a Tai Chi instructor did all the carpentry work for us if, in exchange, he could use the dojo in the off hours to teach his Tai Chi class. I said sure, as long as I could take the class. I loved it, did it for six months. Then he moved to Maine to woo a gal. There weren't any other Tai Chi instructors around back then, so it just stopped.
> 
> Thought about it ever since. Not as a replacement for what I do, but as something I always liked on it's own, and feel it helps what I do.



Don't know exactly where you are located but there are a few good taiji teachers on the east coast, depending on what  you are looking to get out of it would also make a difference as to what sifu to train with and possibly what style


----------



## yak sao (Feb 5, 2015)

Buka said:


> . Then he moved to Maine to woo a gal.



ahhh...woo style


----------



## yak sao (Feb 5, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> exactly....wait...what...did you just call taijiquan people old



Yea, sort of. But not as an insult.
To me, MA training kind of epitomizes the saying "_Youth is wasted on the young_".
You spend years and years developing your skills only to have your body start to rebel against what you've been putting it through for all those years.
Out of necessity, the large, dynamic movements become smaller and more subtle. The hard, strength driven techniques become "softer"...in short, the older martial artist's approach becomes more internal.

Many turn to tai chi as they get older to continue on their martial path. I envy the ones at a young age, who were insightful enough to see tai chi, or any of the internal arts for the treasure they are and stick to the training.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Feb 6, 2015)

yak sao said:


> Yea, sort of. But not as an insult.
> To me, MA training kind of epitomizes the saying "_Youth is wasted on the young_".
> You spend years and years developing your skills only to have your body start to rebel against what you've been putting it through for all those years.
> Out of necessity, the large, dynamic movements become smaller and more subtle. The hard, strength driven techniques become "softer"...in short, the older martial artist's approach becomes more internal.
> ...




Insulting my age while telling me I had wisdom beyond my years to start training it young......... I like it....

There are styles of Taijiquan that people should not start when they get older, Zhaobao is a great example of one of those and Chen could be an issue and Southern Wu could be as well if you do not have a real good Southern Wu teacher


----------



## Buka (Feb 6, 2015)

I just looked up what was near me. There's a Swimming Dragon Tai Chi class offered.
I am not familiar with styles of Tai Chi. What do you guys think?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Feb 6, 2015)

Buka said:


> I just looked up what was near me. There's a Swimming Dragon Tai Chi class offered.
> I am not familiar with styles of Tai Chi. What do you guys think?




I don't know Randy Moy but I might know who Fong Ha is, I will have to check when I get home. For Yang style in your area I would recommend Vincent Chu, but he may be expensive. If you want Chen look for Brian Muccio, he is a student of  Wang, Hai Jun and has trained with Chen Zhenglei. Wang, Hai Jun is a mainland China student of Chen Zhenglei, There is also Mo Ling (aka Marin Spivack) who is the Senior western disciple of Chen Yu. There is also Stanwood Chang who teaches Sun Style

I will check on Fong Ha when I get home and see if he is who I think he is


----------



## Buka (Feb 6, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> I don't know Randy Moy but I might know who Fong Ha is, I will have to check when I get home. For Yang style in your area I would recommend Vincent Chu, but he may be expensive. If you want Chen look for Brian Muccio, he is a student of  Wang, Hai Jun and has trained with Chen Zhenglei. Wang, Hai Jun is a mainland China student of Chen Zhenglei, There is also Mo Ling (aka Marin Spivack) who is the Senior western disciple of Chen Yu. There is also Stanwood Chang who teaches Sun Style
> 
> I will check on Fong Ha when I get home and see if he is who I think he is



Xue Sheng, thank you, my friend. As I said, I know nothing of the different styles of Tai Chi, but I am a believer of certain fates. I am "probably" going to go with Brian Muccio. As I clicked on all the names you posted, it hit me and made me smile. Mr. Muccio is in Roslindale MA (suburb of Boston). It is where my first serious study of Martial Arts took place. It is also where my first serious study of boxing took place. Both for many years. I believe that is fate. At least it is to me.

Why I say "probably" - I'm heading to Hawaii in a few weeks to look at a couple of jobs. If they pan out, I'll be relocating in the summer. (lived there several times already) In which case, Roslindale obviously won't be an option. 

If that works out I'll post what's around where I am and seek your advice once again. 

Thanks again, brother.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Feb 6, 2015)

Buka said:


> Xue Sheng, thank you, my friend. As I said, I know nothing of the different styles of Tai Chi, but I am a believer of certain fates. I am "probably" going to go with Brian Muccio. As I clicked on all the names you posted, it hit me and made me smile. Mr. Muccio is in Roslindale MA (suburb of Boston). It is where my first serious study of Martial Arts took place. It is also where my first serious study of boxing took place. Both for many years. I believe that is fate. At least it is to me.
> 
> Why I say "probably" - I'm heading to Hawaii in a few weeks to look at a couple of jobs. If they pan out, I'll be relocating in the summer. (lived there several times already) In which case, Roslindale obviously won't be an option.
> 
> ...




Tung Family (my lineage of Yang Style) is in Hawaii, there are a couple Chen guys there as well, but I would have to look them up

Brian is a good guy and incredibly knowledgeable as to how the form and the postures work with your musculoskeletal system


----------



## Xue Sheng (Feb 7, 2015)

Fong Ha is in the book Nei Jia Quan he is a Taijiquan, Yiquan, Qigong guy. As for his taiji it is form my Shigong Tung Ying Chieh, I can check with my sifu to see if he knows him if you like. From what he wrote in the book, I would not mind training with him


----------



## mograph (Feb 7, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Fong Ha is in the book Nei Jia Quan he is a Taijiquan, Yiquan, Qigong guy.


Good book.


----------



## Elbowgrease (Feb 7, 2015)

My Sifu's in that book. Wish I still had a copy.


----------

