# The cost of Ego, disrespect, and the failure of teachers and students.



## TSDTexan (Jun 25, 2021)

Some youngster shows up at a backyard training for Wing Chun, with poor manners, criticizes the teacher and it looks like he provoked the teacher with a head butt. 

The teacher let his ego become wounded and missed the opportunity to teach the student. His fighting didn't look like Wing Chun at all, just angry physical violence. There was no Gung Fu ( excellence ) displayed.

If you are/were the teacher in this situation, how would you have handled this?


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 25, 2021)

Very interesting.  I would ask "Waldo" to stop and step back while class was in progress.  If he would not, I'd ask a couple of senior students to show him out.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 25, 2021)

Instructor was pretty heated before the headbutt. Don't have the full context, but he seems threatened by the questioning. Had the sound really low (at work), but the kid seemed to be trying to push buttons (rather than just trying to get an answer to a question).

It didn't look like any strikes would be necessary to control that kid, and once he makes it physical that's what I'd be aiming for. But I think there were plenty of opportunities to avoid it getting to that point.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 25, 2021)

TSDTexan said:


> If you are/were the teacher in this situation, how would you have handled this?


I'm  going to show my EGO here.  It wouldn't happen to me. The reason I say this is because of how I teach.  I teach in a way that allows of discussions like that to occur.  But after class.   This is a Jow Ga class.  So until class is over, everyone eats, sweats, breathes,, bleeds, sees, trains, and vomit Jow Ga.  

As someone who tries his best to represent the functionality of Jow Ga.  If I were ever in a situation like that and things went that bad.  I would at least use Jow Ga to beat the person up.   I wish I could say that I was Disappointed in the Wing Chun Instructor, because he didn't do any WC  so he has to live with that.   The kid didn't know anything about JKD. and the Instructor should have picked up on that when the JKD lesson began.    He could have had an easy win that read.  Headlines: JKD fan boy scared to spar with WC Instructor after Instructor offered sparring gear.


Long Response Below
----------------------------------------------------

First off I had to see the video without the commentary.  I rather not be lead to a perspective based on the commentary  So here's the video  





After class is when I allow such discussions to occur.  I also allow and accept corrections during class and I make ok for students to correct me when I misspeak.  It's not uncommon for people to be thinking one thing and something totally different to come out, only for it to register a few minutes later that you misspoke.  It happens, it's a human thing.  

It's easier for me to thank the student, and for me to say my mind is currently in many directions, and to be thankful that a student was able to pick up the mistake vs just letting it slide.  Now, if I'm right and the student is wrong, then everyone will get the "this is why we do it this way" lecture.   Get a couple of those and the desire to correct is greatly lowered lol.  But seriously,  in the past I have had to say.  "We train way because I want us to develop "Skills A, Skills B, Skills C...."  In general I start off by telling students why we do exercises up front because I want the students to be knowledgeable about what they are doing.  One day someone may ask them, "Why do they do a certain exercise."

Now that my Teacher EGO is done.  I would have sparred with him only because I know my stuff.  After he would have explained his game plan to me,  I would have taken that information and then poke holes through his technique via sparring.   If he's going to stop my kicks, then I would count how many times I land a kick and how many times he was able to defend it.   At least that would be my game plan.   

He would have probably responded the same way to me @ 2:00.   The guy said he would go super easy so he can see it coming, but then Waldo chickens out.   The WC instructor was actually in the process of throwing "the super easy so you can see it coming kick."  This is when the WC instructor has won.  He could have walked  away at this point and said that Waldo was afraid of a "super easy so you can see it coming kick."  Game over WC wins.  Or in my case Jow Ga wins.

This is where I my response would have changed.  I would have said. OK I have sparring gear.  Then I would have offered the sparring gear.  I would have asked him does he want to wear it or does he want me to wear it.  At this point you can box someone in to making 1 of 2 decisions.  He will either put on the gear, or He will either walk away in fear.  Either way is fine with me.

I wouldn't have gotten within grabbing distance though.  Everyone has their "Red Zone"  No need to put him in mine.  If  person gets in my Red Zone then self-defense mentality kicks in and puts me in the mind set of fighting.  If you ever see me in a situation like this in a heated argument then I'm going to attack.  I only say this, because I don't get into people's "Red Zone."  The only way this can happen to me in an argument, is if the person advances towards me.






The disappoint side of all of this is if I have to fight someone because they interrupt my Jow Ga class like a butt.  Not saying I would, but if things lead to that path, I would feel a strong "duty" to beat this guy up using Jow Ga Kung fu.  I'm just saying.  If 2 people from 2 different systems get into this situation then at least back up the fight with your skill sets.  Literally everything is going down hill at this point so at least layout some Wing Chun so that people in YouTube land can send Rokas a video of a real street fight using Wing Chun.   At least get that victory  ha ha ha.

The punches weren't damaging.  I think the WC hurt his hand when he hit the skull.   The JKD sucked, and the guy slipped on a stick.  His kicking strategy totally out of the window  ha ha ha.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 25, 2021)

TSDTexan said:


> There was no Gung Fu ( excellence ) displayed.


That's the real disappointment.  Just another video of how Traditional Martial Arts reverts to basic kick boxing and grabbing.  If there was ever a good time to showcase martial arts skills in a street fight.  That was it.


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## drop bear (Jun 25, 2021)

This recently happened. We let a white belt beat the guy up. 


I did  a thread.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> This recently happened. We let a white belt beat the guy up.
> 
> 
> I did  a thread.


I've heard other places do the same thing.  If you wanted to really take the wind out of someone then you let the lowest level student take them out lol.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 25, 2021)

Figure I'll throw some Gasoline on this one.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 25, 2021)

I am not an instructor, just practiced Tae Kwon Do for almost 3 years and I learn Wing Chun for a little while before. I don't want to judge the instructor losing his cool, I am not going to be an armchair QB.

One thing I have talked about this here and since this is a small circle, I am sure people already read my ranting about Wing Chun. I watched a lot of youtube on Wing Chun vs MMA and other styles, I *YET* to see any application of the essence of Wing Chun in fighting. Never see anyone using sticky hands in a real fight. So it is NOT surprising that the instructor fight like a kick boxer instead BECAUSE IT WORKS. What, offended me a whole lot more about those teachers are all the talk talk talk and doesn't do "manure"!!! Why wasting students' time practicing on something that is USELESS. I said it and I'll say it again, don't tell me it works, if anyone think it works, go into the Octagon, if they make it to the pay-per-view, then they can talk as loud as they want.

Now, if that teacher also teach kickboxing in his Wing Chun school, then I applaud him for have an open mind and use whatever works.

I went to a lot of Tae Kwon Do school to watch before I decided to joint the one I went to. I notice my school do a lot of practical exercise, we don't do the old style katas, we don't do deep horse stands and punch from the side of the body. We stand up, move around, we use boxing hands. We have students taking turns holding a bag and let the other student punch and kick. We have a lot of contact, the one holding the bag get use to being hit( even with the bag, it's not as easy as people think). We do sparring, we seldom do forms until right before the belt test. Very much like what Bruce Lee did. I believe in practice what works and throw away those that doesn't, don't even waste a minute in useless moves. Our teacher even invite a Jujitsu instructor occasionally to teach us submission stuffs. That was in mid 80s way before UFC. this is what I called a good school. How many MA school can say this?


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 25, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I believe in practice what works and throw away those that doesn't, don't even waste a minute in useless moves. Our teacher even invite a Jujitsu instructor occasionally to teach us submission stuffs. That was in mid 80s way before UFC. this is what I called a good school. How many MA school can say this?


You believe in practicing what you think works.


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## TSDTexan (Jun 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm  going to show my EGO here.  It wouldn't happen to me. The reason I say this is because of how I teach.  I teach in a way that allows of discussions like that to occur.  But after class.   This is a Jow Ga class.  So until class is over, everyone eats, sweats, breathes,, bleeds, sees, trains, and vomit Jow Ga.
> 
> As someone who tries his best to represent the functionality of Jow Ga.  If I were ever in a situation like that and things went that bad.  I would at least use Jow Ga to beat the person up.   I wish I could say that I was Disappointed in the Wing Chun Instructor, because he didn't do any WC  so he has to live with that.   The kid didn't know anything about JKD. and the Instructor should have picked up on that when the JKD lesson began.    He could have had an easy win that read.  Headlines: JKD fan boy scared to spar with WC Instructor after Instructor offered sparring gear.
> 
> ...


If you cannot keep your root.... You aren't ready to demonstrate kicking. 

If you cannot be mindfull of the terrain upon which you are fighting/sparing.... You probable aren't ready to demonstrate kicking.

Personal anacdote time..
I was thowing a party back in college. It was on my grandmother's defunct dairy farm. 

it was a bunch of drunk collage boys with a tiny amount of college ladies thrown in for color. 

I was pretty close to being drunk, but I had switched to iced bottled water. 
A "really good" friend got beligerent and I asked him to calm down or I would calm him down. 

Me being a 20 year old who thought I knew what I was doing.... (Lol) Of course.... I didn't. I lost a really good friend, after he put his hands on me, and I broke his wrist with a kote gaeshi, and two sloppy hip tosses that brusied him badly.

He had been too drunk to feel me break his wrist, and it spiraled out of control. The thing that broke our friendship is that his girlfriend watched the whole thing, and dumped him because he lost the fight.

I reflect back.... And realize that I was the one who lost the fight because I had been taught deescalation, and I escalated it.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 25, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> That was in mid 80s way before UFC. this is what I called a good school. How many MA school can say this?


Probably more than you think in terms of being in the US.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 25, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> You believe in practicing what you think works.


Yes, I observed who's whooping who's butt.

At the time when I was learning, kick boxing was pretty much the latest. Bruce Lee proved by whooping all the so called masters before he died using his combination of boxing hands and Tae Kwon Do kicks. He was the first one combining different styles and picked out what works. Did he whooped so many of those so called "masters". His first MA was Wing Chun directly from Yip Mun, you can see in his fights, he did not use any Wing Chun. He knew better.

Now, it's a different world, we have MMA.....As *MIXED* MARTIAL ARTS.....That pick out parts from any style that works and throw away those that doesn't. Basically boxing hands, Muythai elbow and knees, Wrestling ground game, Jujitsu submission and add on some more. Now thanks to UFC and other organizations, there are proving grounds. Disagree? Get into the octagon. Less talk, more action.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Probably more than you think in terms of being in the US.


That's good, finally they learn, that one cannot hold onto the old style. Yes, I have not audition schools for a long time, maybe things have change, finally they realize a lot of their things don't work and they change. I am glad schools in US changed, I can care less whether schools in China change. I am in US.

I know the old mentality of Chinese kung fu, they feel very strong in retaining their original method from like 100 years ago and they are proud of this. That's bad. If they actually humble enough to change, then there is hope.

Like I said, if that instructor actually teach kick boxing and he used kick boxing to defeat the punk, *I applaud him*. Forget what is the name of the school(Wing Chun), teach things that actually works. If he teach ground game, that would be a very good school.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 25, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Yes, I observed who's whooping who's butt.
> 
> At the time when I was learning, kick boxing was pretty much the latest. Bruce Lee proved by whooping all the so called masters before he died using his combination of boxing hands and Tae Kwon Do kicks. He was the first one combining different styles and picked out what works. Did he whooped so many of those so called "masters". His first MA was Wing Chun directly from Yip Mun, you can see in his fights, he did not use any Wing Chun. He knew better.
> 
> Now, it's a different world, we have MMA.....As *MIXED* MARTIAL ARTS.....That pick out parts from any style that works and throw away those that doesn't. Basically boxing hands, Muythai elbow and knees, Wrestling ground game, Jujitsu submission and add on some more. Now thanks to UFC and other organizations, there are proving grounds. Disagree? Get into the octagon. Less talk, more action.


I can't fly a plane, therefore no one can.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 25, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> As *MIXED* MARTIAL ARTS.....That pick out parts from any style that works and throw away those that doesn't.


Actually Mix Martial Arts aren't throwing things away.  They are picking the things that they learn and use in a short period of time.  Ironically if they are in the game long enough they begin to build up skills that allow them to use more complex techniques that they would have never used at the beginning.  The more they train the more they are able to do the advance techniques (these are the ones you think they are throwing away).

Where traditional martial arts often fails is that they don't learn how to use the easier techniques first and they don't work their way up to using the more difficult techniques.  For example,  Wing Chun.  I don't like it, but if I had to learn it, I would first start by learning how to apply the easy stuff first.  I would get really good at that which would give me the skills and ability to try the next level technique.

My first Jow Ga technique that I learned and became really good at was the sweep.  While it difficult for some, this was easy for me to learn and understand in comparison to all of the other stuff.  After I got good with that I started to add to that skill set by adding something a little bit harder.  My skills and ability grew each time I added something slightly difficult to what I was already able to do really well.   MMA is like this.  Now when you watch MMA you start to see a lot of techniques that people thought that would never work.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Actually Mix Martial Arts aren't throwing things away.  They are picking the things that they learn and use in a short period of time.  Ironically if they are in the game long enough they begin to build up skills that allow them to use more complex techniques that they would have never used at the beginning.  The more they train the more they are able to do the advance techniques (these are the ones you think they are throwing away).
> 
> Where traditional martial arts often fails is that they don't learn how to use the easier techniques first and they don't work their way up to using the more difficult techniques.  For example,  Wing Chun.  I don't like it, but if I had to learn it, I would first start by learning how to apply the easy stuff first.  I would get really good at that which would give me the skills and ability to try the next level technique.
> 
> My first Jow Ga technique that I learned and became really good at was the sweep.  While it difficult for some, this was easy for me to learn and understand in comparison to all of the other stuff.  After I got good with that I started to add to that skill set by adding something a little bit harder.  My skills and ability grew each time I added something slightly difficult to what I was already able to do really well.   MMA is like this.  Now when you watch MMA you start to see a lot of techniques that people thought that would never work.


Wing Chun has good stuffs, I really like their punch, but I won't  punch from the middle of the chest like in their first set form ( straight translation is " Little Idea" or " Little Thoughts"). But Wing Chun punch is very strong if people can really practice good. On top of legs, hip, waste and shoulder combine to throw a punch, Wing Chun add the wrist motion to dig the knuckle of the baby finger into the target. It's like adding the last nudge to add to the rest of the force. It takes quite a while to get it good, I use that in my practice. I think that's the added force for short distance punch. You practice punching the bags, you can feel it's hitting harder and dig deeper into the bag.

The other of Wing Chun is the step kick to the knee of the opponent. You can see people use it in UFC fight. Those are good stuffs of Wing Chun. I just don't see their sticky hands. Again, I can only speak about Wing Chun sticky hands, not other styles like yours.

MMA is evolving every day, you watch back fights of even 7 years old, it's different. The idea is constantly improving. I hope you are right that there are more schools like I described that keep incorporate new useful stuffs into their teaching instead of stubbornly follow the old traditional stuffs. Funny ESPN ( channel 219 in DirectTV) is showing a lot of older fights dated back up to 10 years ago due to the pendemic, you can really tell the age of the recording by just looking at the way they fight. That's the reason nobody stay on top for long time and they get defeated soon.

Ha ha, I guess I am the kind that like to learn new things regardless of age. I retired since 2005, but I still keep up with studying and learning. Last year, my grandson who's is 3rd year computer science major said he is lacking motivation. I said how about grandpa nipping at your heal?!!! I decided to study C++ computer programming language. I spent 7 months and finish a 2" thick book from cover to cover!!! I did it.....for a 68 years old man. I was going to go farther until all the attacks of older Asians, so I dropped the programming and work on stick fight with a walking cane for self defense. It's been 3 months and I am still go hard at it. I just keep getting into new things, always learning. Before C++ programming, I was designing and built very high end hifi power amps for 3 years until my amps can compare favorably with amps that are over $5,000. Life is an adventure. I hope my cane fight can be good enough to protect myself and my wife, then I will be moving onto other adventures.


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## Cynik75 (Jun 26, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> .... Bruce Lee proved by whooping all the so called masters before he died using his combination of boxing hands and Tae Kwon Do kicks.


 There's only one known real fight (sparrings excluded) fight of BL. Wong Jack Man fight, which was summarized by BL (paraphrasing) : ****, I cant fight, but fortunately he can't fight even more. 
End of digression.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 26, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I just don't see their sticky hands.


I don't think you will see this as trained in Wing Chun.  What you see is Sticky Hands and how it looks when it's Wing Chun vs Wing Chun.  When you use it against another someone who doesn't train Wing Chun then it will look different.  Most people fight with one hand forward and one hand back.  This means that you will be too far away to maintain sticky hands, which is probably why some Wing Chun schools are really big on always moving forward.  This mindset may be so that you can close the distance.  If you get close enough then you will cram your opponent's punches or encourage him to try to grab you.  This is probably where Wing Chun sticky hands would be most effective.

We had one user apply sticky hands in ground fighting and based on the video that I saw this is when it looked like Wing Chun sticky hands.  The only difference is that he was on the top mount punching down as the other person was trying to defend and deal with in the incoming punches.

1:33 - 1:39  is how I feel about Jow Ga.  I think it applies to all Martial Arts systems.  





The day I started to get really good at Jow Ga was the day I no longer thought Jow Ga vs Jow Ga.  Jow Ga vs Everyone else makes the techniques easier to understand.  When other Martial Artist here share information about their system, I start to think Jow Ga vs that system.   I'm always asking myself "What is the Jow Ga Answer?"   I think this way of thinking can help anyone.  So those who have trouble with Wing Chun should think.   Wing Chun vs Everyone else.  Then when it's Wing Chun vs Boxing, then "What is the Wing Chun Answer"

You also have to give yourself flexibility to Develop Wing Chun.  This is the most important because it will allow you to do Wing Chun in a way that fits the situation but it may go against what you were taught.  This how development works.  If you don't give yourself that flexibility then Wing Chun will never be yours.  It will always be someone else's Wing Chun


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 26, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I am not an instructor, just practiced Tae Kwon Do for almost 3 years and I learn Wing Chun for a little while before. I don't want to judge the instructor losing his cool, I am not going to be an armchair QB.


It's better to say what's on your mind.  Right or wrong something can be learned from it.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 26, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> There's only one known real fight (sparrings excluded) fight of BL. Wong Jack Man fight, which was summarized by BL (paraphrasing) : ****, I cant fight, but fortunately he can't fight even more.
> End of digression.


Not what I heard in Hong Kong. I was still in Hong Kong until 1973 when he died. There were a lot of talk and Bruce Lee was on tv a lot talking. Funny when Bruce Lee was alive, nobody dare to say anything, after he died, all of a sudden, so many people claimed they can beat Bruce Lee.


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## drop bear (Jun 26, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Not what I heard in Hong Kong. I was still in Hong Kong until 1973 when he died. There were a lot of talk and Bruce Lee was on tv a lot talking. Funny when Bruce Lee was alive, nobody dare to say anything, after he died, all of a sudden, so many people claimed they can beat Bruce Lee.



A lot of talk from all sides.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't think you will see this as trained in Wing Chun.  What you see is Sticky Hands and how it looks when it's Wing Chun vs Wing Chun.  When you use it against another someone who doesn't train Wing Chun then it will look different.  Most people fight with one hand forward and one hand back.  This means that you will be too far away to maintain sticky hands, which is probably why some Wing Chun schools are really big on always moving forward.  This mindset may be so that you can close the distance.  If you get close enough then you will cram your opponent's punches or encourage him to try to grab you.  This is probably where Wing Chun sticky hands would be most effective.
> 
> We had one user apply sticky hands in ground fighting and based on the video that I saw this is when it looked like Wing Chun sticky hands.  The only difference is that he was on the top mount punching down as the other person was trying to defend and deal with in the incoming punches.
> 
> ...


You are thinking as an American, in the land of free, free to create and free challenge. In China where kung fu all started, you are discouraged to think, to change and to object. I was raised in Hong Kong, I know how it worked, worst is in China. In Kung Fu, they put a lot of emphasis in EXACT hand and feet placement, you have to do it in the exact way.

Wing Chun was started by a woman, you can see all the punches and strikes started in the middle of the chest. Emphasize in elbows close together to protect the breast ( for good reason). You can put a ring around the two elbows and they can fight like that. Same as the stand, they start with the leg separation from the first form( the "little idea"), then close the knees and sit to lower the body. Then they just turn to the left and become the traditional stand for Wing Chun. They advance by the left foot step forward and drag the right foot. They retreat by pushing the left foot to move the body back. This is very slow compare to boxing or MMA that dance back and fore. Wing Chun can never chase fast enough if they stuck with their stand. I think they have the stand like this to protect the genital......understandable for woman. they have a name for it in Chinese, I don't know how to translate it.

We in the East are taught to copy, glorifying copy, not original. Creativity is NOT encouraged. I was a musician when I was in Hong Kong( had a little name in 1972) by winning 4 Talent Quest in two years. We copy the song to the exact, even the guitar solo followed the exactly the original song, that's what they called good. It's only after I came here in 73 then I opened my eyes and change. I have recordings of before and after I came here. The ones from here was so much better!!! It's a different philosophy, you have to live there to understand. I am so blessed to be able to come here and open my eyes.

Look at Xu Ziaodong, China HATE him for making their traditional kung fu look so bad. They even force him to paint his face before he can go into a match to humiliate him. There is a standing offer of $20K for anyone who can beat him. He reminds me of Bruce Lee back in the days, those "masters" hated him because BL called them out like Xu Ziaodong. I was surprised China finally acknowledge Bruce Lee and have a stature of him somewhere.

funny in your video, I understand exactly what he said, he must be in Hong Kong, speaking the same language I speak before( I speak English at home now). He is so bitter, saying Xu Ziaodong just whaling punches, can take a punch on the head and still nothing bother him!! MMA is so fast you have no time to think, look at how fast he chased down the Tai Chi master. The thing that I look at the most is the foot work in UFC fights, a lot is on the foot work. I am not an expert, I started stick fight 3 months ago, I started with footwork and add the stick into it, not the other way around. Same as I practice punching and kicking, all from the footwork and add onto it. Too bad I am too old and slow down. People in UFC have amazing speed on footwork.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> A lot of talk from all sides.


We just heard a lot more because I was there. They had fights funded by private party that was not open to the public. It was quite famous one actor that good in fighting challenged BL, at the beginning BL did not accept, but some private party put up a lot of money to have them fight in private, BL accepted, he beat the guy. The guy never dispute it when the news was out.

It's very different back there at the time. Rich people are very rich, they have the money to put a fight like this. It is not uncommon. Remember, this is before 1973, no youtube, no phones with video recorders. You have to have a camera to film it. Just because you don't have the video doesn't mean it did not happen.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> A lot of talk from all sides.


Shouldn't there be a Mysterious Monk in the story?


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## Alan0354 (Jun 26, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I can't fly a plane, therefore no one can.


If the style is really that good, they can find someone that is good enough to get into the Octagon and prove it. There's big money in it, it's not as if it's a waste of time.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 26, 2021)

Guys, there's no point talking about Bruce Lee too much, it's 50 years ago, I was there, you guys are not, we all don't have any proof one way or the other.

Let's talk about Xu Ziaodong, he is alive and kicking, he remind me of Bruce Lee. He challenge a lot of those "masters" and whoop their butt(now, these are ALL on youtube). There is a standing offer of $20K to anyone that can beat him in China. He's still alive and kicking and talk trash. I am sure if anyone can beat him, it will be all over youtube. I am still waiting.

It's so easy to talk. I heard "I don't want to show this because it's too deadly", " I don't want to use it because I don't want people to steal it!!".


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## Cynik75 (Jun 26, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Wing Chun was started by a woman, you can see all the punches and strikes started in the middle of the chest. Emphasize in elbows close together to protect the breast ( for good reason).


Any evidence except myth? Proven lineage of WC is man-only. Knowing the role of women in Chinese society I really doubt it.
Much more likely WC was invented to fight in small, closed rooms and corridors etc. (Red Boats?) where was no place to footwork, headwork, long distance punches and kicks, no place for throws, just chest to chest bare knuckle butchery.


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## drop bear (Jun 26, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> We just heard a lot more because I was there. They had fights funded by private party that was not open to the public. It was quite famous one actor that good in fighting challenged BL, at the beginning BL did not accept, but some private party put up a lot of money to have them fight in private, BL accepted, he beat the guy. The guy never dispute it when the news was out.
> 
> It's very different back there at the time. Rich people are very rich, they have the money to put a fight like this. It is not uncommon. Remember, this is before 1973, no youtube, no phones with video recorders. You have to have a camera to film it. Just because you don't have the video doesn't mean it did not happen.



And yet the fights that are on video at the time were terrible slap fists.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 26, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> If the style is really that good, they can find someone that is good enough to get into the Octagon and prove it. There's big money in it, it's not as if it's a waste of time.


As if the only reason to study a martial art is to beat people in the octagon. I've been trying to be polite. Let me be more blunt. You're blind to what you do not wish to see and incapable of grasping anything outside of your very limited understanding. If you are happy in your ignorance, so be it. There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 26, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Any evidence except myth? Proven lineage of WC is man-only. Knowing the role of women in Chinese society I really doubt it.
> Much more likely WC was invented to fight in small, closed rooms and corridors etc. (Red Boats?) where was no place to footwork, headwork, long distance punches and kicks, no place for throws, just chest to chest bare knuckle butchery.


You watch series in AHV channel called  Ancient Assassins ? They have a one hour show on this that she's from Shaolin escaping all that. This is so well known. This is the preview:


----------



## drop bear (Jun 26, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Guys, there's no point talking about Bruce Lee too much, it's 50 years ago, I was there, you guys are not, we all don't have any proof one way or the other.
> 
> Let's talk about Xu Ziaodong, he is alive and kicking, he remind me of Bruce Lee. He challenge a lot of those "masters" and whoop their butt(now, these are ALL on youtube). There is a standing offer of $20K to anyone that can beat him in China. He's still alive and kicking and talk trash. I am sure if anyone can beat him, it will be all over youtube. I am still waiting.
> 
> It's so easy to talk. I heard "I don't want to show this because it's too deadly", " I don't want to use it because I don't want people to steal it!!".



A decent pro would murder the guy. And an average UFC fighter would murder that pro and of course the top guys murder that average fighter.

Which to me is very telling as to how good those guys really are.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jun 26, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> As if the only reason to study a martial art is to beat people in the octagon. I've been trying to be polite. Let me be more blunt. You're blind to what you do not wish to see and incapable of grasping anything outside of your very limited understanding. If you are happy in your ignorance, so be it. There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see.


That's the best way to prove it. Talk is cheap. Don't like UFC, there are Ballator( spelling) or the very new Profession Fight shown in ESPN. They just showed a woman gold medalist in Judo beat up another MMA fighter in less than one round. Show and tell.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jun 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> A decent pro would murder the guy. And an average UFC fighter would murder that pro and of course the top guys murder that average fighter.
> 
> Which to me is very telling as to how good those guys really are.


If any style is that good, why can't they train one that is that good? There's a lot of money in it, it's not as if it's a waste of time.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 26, 2021)

Guys, I am not an expert, just put in a few years in Tae Kwon Do. I conceded MMA eat me for lunch. I called my regular workout as "aerobic" to keep in shape by punching heavy bags and do air drills. Saw too many talks, the only way is show and tell. *There's big money in this if you can take it.* I am not going to keep repeating the same thing.

I better end my involvement in this thread,  I am here to learn stick fight, not even interested in MA anymore. I don't want to get banned for this. Good Bye


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 26, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You watch series in AHV channel called  Ancient Assassins ? They have a one hour show on this that she's from Shaolin escaping all that. This is so well known. This is the preview:


And this is your idea of evidence, is it?


----------



## drop bear (Jun 26, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> If any style is that good, why can't they train one that is that good? There's a lot of money in it, it's not as if it's a waste of time.



There actually isn't money in it.

You have to be a top teir martial artist to be a wealthy pro fighter. Especially in mixed martial arts.

This is why guys like Ben Askren will box youtube nobody. Because he gets paid more for that than he has ever been paid for his real competitive matches.

But you can build up a house of cards. Fight nobody, risk nothing and with good branding sell a system that people will climb over broken glass to do.

Which is why I go on about martial arts being more of a belief system than a science.

For example this seminar is 3 to 4 hundred dollars each for a weekend.




__





						RCI Seminars & Courses
					

See all of our upcoming events for RAW Combat International including Luke Holloway seminars!




					www.raw-combat.com
				




I know ten guys locally who would eat that guy alive and train you if you shouted them lunch.


----------



## Cynik75 (Jun 26, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You watch series in AHV channel called  Ancient Assassins ? They have a one hour show on this that she's from Shaolin escaping all that. This is so well known.


This is so well known legend.  The King Artur kind of story.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 26, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> There is a standing offer of $20K to anyone that can beat him in China. He's still alive and kicking and talk trash. I am sure if anyone can beat him, it will be all over youtube. I am still waiting.


$20k isn't a lot of money for the task or repairing the Pride of Kung Fu Masters.   Let's say I go there and beat him with Jow Ga Kung Fu and knock him out.  Then all the kung fu masters will say "This is proof that kung fu works."  Then they will use my victory as their victory.  I don't like that.  To me that's arrogant.  The only thing I would have shown the world is that I can fight using Jow Ga.  It will only show that I'm not fake.  Since that's the reality of it.  20K is small money to repair their reputation.

As far as I know Xu Ziaodong, has not called anyone in this forum Fake Martial artist, He has not called Cung Le a fake martial artist.  The only people who he's interested in fighting are those who have that arrogant pride, that they are so deadly and make excuses for not showing their ability.

My pride was not hurt when he beat the Kung Fu Masters.  Like many who saw the videos, we could tell right away that they had no fighting skills. I didn't even feel sad when the Kung Fu Masters lost.  I just say they should be more honest with their training.  Don't say it's something that it's not.

Xu Ziaodong isn't using some advance techniques to beat them.  He's using the same stuff that many of us see in sparring and competition, and for some of us, it's the same things we experienced in street fights.  Basic punching.   If a "kung fu master" cannot defend against basic punching, then that says more about his lack of training.

I personally wouldn't fight for 20K to fix someone else's reputation, and for them to walk around like they were the ones who won the fight.


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## TSDTexan (Jun 26, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> There's only one known real fight (sparrings excluded) fight of BL. Wong Jack Man fight, which was summarized by BL (paraphrasing) : ****, I cant fight, but fortunately he can't fight even more.
> End of digression.


Which of course led to him completely overhauling his martial art practice. He stopped teaching "*Jun* *Fan"* gung fu and laid down the basis of jkd.


Bill Mattocks said:


> As if the only reason to study a martial art is to beat people in the octagon. I've been trying to be polite. Let me be more blunt. You're blind to what you do not wish to see and incapable of grasping anything outside of your very limited understanding. If you are happy in your ignorance, so be it. There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see.


The parallel thought "there is no greater slave than the one who mistakenly thinks he's free"


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> There actually isn't money in it.
> 
> You have to be a top teir martial artist to be a wealthy pro fighter. Especially in mixed martial arts.
> 
> ...


I guess I won't get my time back from what one of those videos.  That stuff was horrible. There was a lot wrong with what he was doing. Some of those techniques I recognize from Jow Ga (feeding the backfist, and hammer fist) and I know that he's not generating any power from those strike as he's doing.   People make things like elbow strikes more complicated than needed.

I'm going to assume he had an accident which would explain the stiffness in his shoulders and back, but from what I saw there's no way in the world that stuff is going to work like that.  People move.  I won't even waist other people's time by posting the video that I watched..

But it's like you say.  some people are willing to spend hundreds of dollar's on stuff like that, so I can't hate this guy's business hustle.  I need cash too.  lol.  I'm just going to be honest about what I'm teaching.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 27, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> There's only one known real fight (sparrings excluded) fight of BL. Wong Jack Man fight, which was summarized by BL (paraphrasing) : ****, I cant fight, but fortunately he can't fight even more.
> End of digression.


One of my teachers was a student of Wong, Jack Man for about ten years.  He always described Sifu Wong as an exceptional martial artist.

What I have noticed when people who interacted with Bruce Lee describe him, is the consistency with which they use the term “arrogant”.

For what it’s worth.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 27, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Now, it's a different world, we have MMA.....As *MIXED* MARTIAL ARTS.....That pick out parts from any style that works and throw away those that doesn't. Basically boxing hands, Muythai elbow and knees, Wrestling ground game, Jujitsu submission and add on some more. Now thanks to UFC and other organizations, there are proving grounds. Disagree? Get into the octagon. Less talk, more action.


So, this is interesting.  Here you keep telling people who might disagree with your position that they need to get into the octagon to prove their point. 

How about we just turn that around.  I think YOU need to get into the octagon to prove to us what you believe in.  If you can’t do it, then you are just riding the coat tails of others.  Maybe you are the one who drank the Kool-Aid.

Does this mean anything?  To me it just means that different people are capable of different things, different people have different interests, and different people find different paths on which to follow their interests.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Imagine that.

Time to grow up.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 27, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> If the style is really that good, they can find someone that is good enough to get into the Octagon and prove it. There's big money in it, it's not as if it's a waste of time.


There's also the matter of efficiency. A style can be good, but not fast enough in developing the skills for the octagon, so that it simply isn't going to be a worthwhile approach at higher levels. Which means there will be fewer people at lower levels using it (reasonably, people at lower levels tend to follow what works at higher levels. And if it takes longer, folks also get older (and less likely to go to higher levels in competition).

So, if something's among the to 20 of 150 things to consider, it can be pretty good. But there are as many as 19 options that get you to octagon fitness faster or more completely. Why choose number 20 for that?

But "on the street", the average skill level is significantly lower than the average skill level in the octagon, so #20 is still pretty danged good for that. And it might be a lot more interesting to the individual, and it being interesting enough to keep them going regularly is important.


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## TSDTexan (Jun 27, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> There's also the matter of efficiency. A style can be good, but not fast enough in developing the skills for the octagon, so that it simply isn't going to be a worthwhile approach at higher levels. Which means there will be fewer people at lower levels using it (reasonably, people at lower levels tend to follow what works at higher levels. And if it takes longer, folks also get older (and less likely to go to higher levels in competition).
> 
> So, if something's among the to 20 of 150 things to consider, it can be pretty good. But there are as many as 19 options that get you to octagon fitness faster or more completely. Why choose number 20 for that?
> 
> But "on the street", the average skill level is significantly lower than the average skill level in the octagon, so #20 is still pretty danged good for that. And it might be a lot more interesting to the individual, and it being interesting enough to keep them going regularly is important.


There is a world of difference between consensual competitive combatant sport and responding to non consensual physical aggression. There is a huge skill gap between the two. It follows that different tools and skills are called for to address their different but correlated goals/objectives.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 27, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> riding the coat tails of others


That's the phrase I was looking for lol.  It was driving me nuts trying to remember it. Thank you sir. lol


----------



## drop bear (Jun 27, 2021)

TSDTexan said:


> There is a world of difference between consensual competitive combatant sport and responding to non consensual physical aggression. There is a huge skill gap between the two. It follows that different tools and skills are called for to address their different but correlated goals/objectives.



Not really.

Most of the objectives in an assault are contained in a sport fight at a fundamental level. 

They just have a different order of priorities.


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## drop bear (Jun 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's the phrase I was looking for lol.  It was driving me nuts trying to remember it. Thank you sir. lol



Standing on the shoulders of giants. It is amazing we have access to these martial artists that are legitimate.


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## TSDTexan (Jun 28, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Not really.
> 
> Most of the objectives in an assault are contained in a sport fight at a fundamental level.
> 
> They just have a different order of priorities.


I didn't use the word assault. I used the word aggression. The deep end of the aggression pool is murder or homicide. 

It is understood by mma practitioners that they are trying to establish physical dominance during a match up without ruining their name and career with a homicide. After all, murder is bad for business.

On planet earth, some human is beating another to death as we speak. There is no fighter's purse, or a sports trophy or a medal involved. There is a good chance that there may be more than a single assailant who is murdering the victim.


Furthermore, combative sports "in the octagon" don't really concern themselves with worries about the oppenent having a broken bottle, knife, a club, or machete or sword lurking in a shadow in a poorly lit alleyway. 

Kobudo (the twin sister of karate) always has. The same can be said for Kali

There is a correlation between fighting to win, and fighting to live but they are definitely not the same thing.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jun 28, 2021)

This is why you make a tower of babbel with 100 levels that a aspiring challanger must go through before they can fight you.  (annoyingly forgot the name of the film that had that as its concept)

Less joking, some schools i have heard do have a challanger gauntlet.   I dont know if the teacher takes part or if its just students, but if they are really old they might just take part in any weapon matches there.  





TSDTexan said:


> His fighting didn't look like Wing Chun at all, just angry physical violence. There was no Gung Fu ( excellence ) displayed.


Thats fighting as far as i am concerned, if you are focused on purely results and the best way, there is a finite list for what would be done. (dont know how many variations, but its besides the point)     If wing chun purely is in that list then sure, why cant he?     The main diffrence in fighting seems to be in neuance and ambush.    Neuance would be if they train with headbutts they will manover like you can headbutt them and headbutt you.   ambush would be something like if you are accosted and end up in a fence or someting and you doa  blitz combo.  
If the ambush doesnt work you will default to more a tradtional fighting stance and so would your opponent as thats the best thing to do there.  its also natural for the most part.    So basically if your one trick pony of palm to the face, and blitz them with hammerfist and elbows doesnt work, you default to boxing them with your nuance and they do theirs.  (obviously if you break off into boxing range and arent grappling, but i dont know grappling to grapplerfy that)    

He did knee on belly so thats at least more than what most wing chun people would have done to a grounded opponent.  (i dont think thats in wing chun either, but is definately something useful)

anyway, to the general topic. 


The only point of contention i see is the mention of full contact fighting or the tone of the mention.   this also isnt really a challange as a more on the spot and in the moment fight that happened.   this has the added dimension of if it is actually his dwelling.  Edit:  The actual conflict breaks out with the striped person placing their forehead on the other persons. I think he did

I dont generally see anything wrong with proposing questions and being willing to demosntrate etc what you mean as you paid to be there and to be taught martial arts.  So if you see what you think is a problem bring it up, as it either has a answer or the instructor may not have seen it and could come up with something. 

Id think just mainting distance,and telling him to get out and calling the police would have been the better course of events if he didnt want them to be there anymore and just act defensively from that onset.         Does anyone in the video actually call the police anyway?   

Then just settle it in court or out of court about if he gets a refund or not and what the terms of the class are etc at a later date. 

Basically, what he did at the end he should have done for the head placement, push him away (towards the exit) and telling him to get out and asking somone to call the police if he didnt.   (but obviously acting defensively if he attempted to attack again)

This is at least the first viewing and best assestment of the situation as far as i have, i will probbly rewatch it and edit anything if i see any changes.   (not literally edit the post, but make a addendum post) 

Addendum:  i watched the video without commentary when i found it in the thread, not the overal commentary, going from the short segment i have seen the comemntary is looking at it like its a "challange" when it isnt, its a spontious fight with a attendee over a disagreement with whats being taught.    Didnt watch more than maybe up to two minutes. 

I also skimmed to the point of the video where the conflcit broke out and watched to just before it, as stated i dont disagree with questioning instructors so it seemed a null point to watch more than what actually caused the fight and how it went down.   I also dont know **** about wing chun or JKD.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jun 28, 2021)

Addendum post after breif rewatch:

I didnt hear the instructor or notice them aggrssively offer a fight first time.     But watching the frames for when the fight starts, he doesnt really break contact he just slaps the stripe top and closes in to fight them.    I firmly stand by pushing to get them out of your space and telling them to get out would have best there, as you could  argue the instructor assualted the other person.  (who did not until near the end get consent to be on the property revoked)   Actually i would argue and say the instructor assualted striped top, and striped top was acting in self defence.     If we also look at the fact hes in his back garden and surrounded by at least people somewhat loyal to the instructor (wouldnt call them freinds or allies, thats too strong) and he was also forced deeper into the property.  (from where i presume the entrance is)  and if he has any property there he would need to be given time to recover it or somone hand it to him outside.     Property recovery was something i overlooked in the initial post.


I also find it slightly bemusing no one steps in to help, and no one calls the police, once they start fighting no one seems to do anything other than the  one person who steps in before the fight, and the same person who comes back near the end.   I dont think i see attempts either.


I also wonder if something worse would have happened and if the police didnt show up if any video would have made it to the internet, i wonder how many things like this happen and you dont see any videos of it.


The head being placed on the isntructor was a mistake though, but not everyone acts clearly under pressure or under threat of violence.   I also cant make any statement to how respectful striped top was but im inclided to belive he was at least neutral in wording through the entire thing and was just sharing his opinion on a technique.   (i will take who evers word for it he was or wasnt)    Lets be fair though, you A dont expect your instructor to beat you up and B dont expect your student to commit a act of battery/assualt on you.


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## drop bear (Jun 28, 2021)

TSDTexan said:


> I didn't use the word assault. I used the word aggression. The deep end of the aggression pool is murder or homicide.
> 
> It is understood by mma practitioners that they are trying to establish physical dominance during a match up without ruining their name and career with a homicide. After all, murder is bad for business.
> 
> ...



This is a marketing difference rather than an actual difference. Where people sell this idea of life or death fights. Rather than selling competent mechanics.


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## Graywalker (Jun 29, 2021)

All I can do is laugh.


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## Grandmaster Yue men quan (Jun 29, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm  going to show my EGO here.  It wouldn't happen to me. The reason I say this is because of how I teach.  I teach in a way that allows of discussions like that to occur.  But after class.   This is a Jow Ga class.  So until class is over, everyone eats, sweats, breathes,, bleeds, sees, trains, and vomit Jow Ga.
> 
> As someone who tries his best to represent the functionality of Jow Ga.  If I were ever in a situation like that and things went that bad.  I would at least use Jow Ga to beat the person up.   I wish I could say that I was Disappointed in the Wing Chun Instructor, because he didn't do any WC  so he has to live with that.   The kid didn't know anything about JKD. and the Instructor should have picked up on that when the JKD lesson began.    He could have had an easy win that read.  Headlines: JKD fan boy scared to spar with WC Instructor after Instructor offered sparring gear.
> 
> ...


----------



## Grandmaster Yue men quan (Jun 29, 2021)

Both of them! Wth. First off you don't have to command attention to have an audience. Second off, neither one of them knew anything about what the hell they were doing. A qualified instructor doesn't get emotional about disgraceful behavior or have to set it right its train or go. Come send go. Not come get ruffled and fight like a girl. Follow the actual training in any training hall the fact that this guys proclaims to know wing chun and doesn't even understand the arts maxim makes him a retard. You don't go and challenge a real wing chun practitioner there not going to ground and pound you there going to strike you in the six gate and end your life. Sorry but both of them need alot of work.


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## knuckleheader (Jun 29, 2021)

Yes, the instructor could have handled it differently.
Maybe he was having a bad moment and  Waldo pressed the wrong button at the wrong time.
None of us are perfect all of the time.


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## ThatOneCanadian (Jun 29, 2021)

Martial arts training is beautiful. Fighting is ugly. The former requires you to adhere to the technique you are taught. The latter is an open playground. I see nothing wrong with using pure aggression in a real confrontation.


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## letsplaygames (Jul 1, 2021)

There is a break down of functional prowess in CMA.  And again that break down is on display here.

  What Ive noticed most about CMA’s, 

They often are empty shells, most  void of the skills first needed to make the art effective. 


I’m not saying tradition CMA’s Do not work… (im not vain, ignorant or stupid in this reguard) I think they all at one time in history must have been very effective. 

It is almost as if “most” CMA’s  are based off one or two specific tactics that in a fight you get one shot at…&  if you pull off the tactic it’s devastating!  

that said… 
Seems much of CMA has forgotten what skillsets are needed to get to that point.


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## Anarax (Jul 1, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's the real disappointment. Just another video of how Traditional Martial Arts reverts to basic kick boxing and grabbing.


I've taken kickboxing for several years, I've never seen anything like that in class 😂


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 1, 2021)

Anarax said:


> I've taken kickboxing for several years, I've never seen anything like that in class 😂


You're right. My apologies lol. They didn't even rise to that standard.  How many years had the Wing Chun Instructor train? Just think. All that time spent training and that's all he had to show.

It would have been better if the Wing Chun Instructor would have kicked that JKD guy just to show him that the kicks couldn't be stopped. Knock the wind out of or something representative of the EGOS on display.


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## Anarax (Jul 1, 2021)

Rashun is the name of the "Instructor" in the video beating on Waldo and he's commented on the video uploaded on multiple YouTube channels. His comment is down below.

"Great video analysis!  Firstly, I’m not particularly proud of what went on That day.  But it was a raw slice of life and for better or worse a teachable moment  the young man was not my student.He is 34 years old I’m told.He Came into my 🏠 with a former student saying he was there to learn. But soon after he got there I sensed he had other intentions. I started to give him some pointers on stance and footwork but he insisted that his way was better, so I tried to introduce him to a drill I developed called the Lao sao drill. But he found it difficult to pull off, got frustrated and yelled ‘I had a bad week, I’m not here for all of this, I thought we were going to meditate?’ so I had one of my students work with him on Sui Lim Tao to calm him down.but my student said ‘waldo’ wasn’t interested in learning it. so he left ‘Waldo’ alone to come train with us. While the rest of us worked on drills I noticed ‘waldo’ punching on my heavy bag and playing around on my wooden dummy.but I was busy working on drills so it didn’t really bother me.Then he sat down and may have taken a nap.I’m not sure.but he was in my 🏠 for over 90 minutes before the video started. By then he saw me run drills till I was exhausted and drenched in sweat. it was at this time it all culminated .  I intentionally kept my gloves on in case things went south he would be somewhat protected.  But When he touched my face I reacted.struck him immediately, closed the gap to initiate a quick takedown and a few gloved punches, not to hurt him too bad. Yes, I did grab his elbow to help him up.but I sensed he was going to try and hit me so I controlled his elbows and shoved him before he could. When He got up he did try to kick me, but I saw his arm move indicating the kick he was about to throw, and I ducked and used a rising fat sao to unbalance him. As he fell I gave him another gloved punch For good measure. Yes I’m a martial artist, I’m also a 52 year old grandfather From Brooklyn where things got handled very differently than things do today.  Should I have handled this better? Probably. Could I have handled this better? I’d like to think so.  But we never really know until we’re in that moment.   And the moment that young man touched my face….I found out.   And that’s one for me to grow on… He did call the police to have me arrested  but he didn’t know I had footage of the entire event. The police,detectives and investigators watched the video  and said it was clear as day that he was the aggressor. In fact the final police report says It was a battery case “Suspect pushed his head against the victims head. Victim retaliated by punching him, suspect kicked out.” They asked if I wanted to Press charges against him. I declined.  they were going to mark it as mutual combat  but after the investigation the police report lists me as the victim of a battery. Go figure ?  There are a lot of great teachers, masters,and instructors who have had some unflattering moments that are still great at what the do. we are still human beings, always learning and growing. "

Personally I'm not seeing him going easy on Waldo, it appears he's trying to hit him in the face and he does several times. It looked like Rashun didn't know ground and pound positioning and it was the lack of knowledge to do so effectively is what prevented him from inflicting serious injuries on Waldo, not him choosing to restrain himself.

Both are wrong and there's plenty of blame to go around. Rashun was the instructor and escalated most of the situation. Waldo did drive his head forward into Rashun's face and that was the line where it became physical. However, that was after Rashun got in his face, put his finger inches away from his face, started shouting and starting dropping racial slurs. I wouldn't want to train with either of them. Rashun's video will just become another compilation on a "TMA Gone Wrong" video, hopefully with a more creative title.


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## Anarax (Jul 1, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You're right. My apologies lol. They didn't even rise to that standard.  How many years had the Wing Chun Instructor train? Just think. All that time spent training and that's all he had to show.
> 
> It would have been better if the Wing Chun Instructor would have kicked that JKD guy just to show him that the kicks couldn't be stopped. Knock the wind out of or something representative of the EGOS on display.


Thank you, just wanted to give a little insight into kickboxing lol. Yeah, the video TSDTexan posted covers Rashun's background, the instructor in the video. IMO, it's more disappointing given his experience.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 1, 2021)

Anarax said:


> I tried to introduce him to a drill I developed called the Lao sao drill. But he found it difficult to pull off, got frustrated and yelled ‘I had a bad week, I’m not here for all of this, I thought we were going to meditate?’ so I had one of my students work with him on Sui Lim Tao to calm him down.but my student said ‘waldo’ wasn’t interested in learning it. so he left ‘Waldo’ alone to come train with us. While the rest of us worked on drills I noticed ‘waldo’ punching on my heavy bag and playing around on my wooden dummy.


I've seen this happen once in my life.  Almost the same pattern.  This is where I would have corrected the behavior.  People can either watch or participate in training.  They don't get play around on equipment while everyone one else is training.  This is how it is in everything that I know especially sports.  I don't know of any coaches that would tolerate that on a high school level.  I think a lot of drama could have been cut off at this point.  By politely stating the rule.  "You can either participate or watch" then explain that it's not personal but the rules of the school and students and guest must follow those rules.  If he doesn't want to follow those rules then politely ask him to leave.  Because it's on private property, he has 2 options for leaving.
Option 1: Leave on his own.
Option 2: Be forced to leave (either by butt kicking or by police) Either way works for me

This is #1 to me before my EGO.  Especially if it's at my home.  At that point it's not even about Martial Arts anymore.



Anarax said:


> I intentionally kept my gloves on in case things went south he would be somewhat protected.


I don't know about this.  Saying MMA Gloves offers protection for your opponent is like saying a lightly padded brick offers protection.  It's like the difference between getting scratched by a brick and not being scratched by one.  I have concern about the safety of the people that I spar and train with.  People that I fight with in situations like this don't get that benefit.  In situations like this I try to shut my feelings and concern off, just for the purpose of being able to do horrible things.



Anarax said:


> But When he touched my face I reacted.struck him immediately, closed the gap to initiate a quick takedown and a few gloved punches, not to hurt him too bad.


Again.  If he didn't want to hurt the guy then why get into a fight?  If I get into a fight then I understand by default that I'm going to hurt someone or that person may hurt me.  


Anarax said:


> And the moment that young man touched my face


If I don't want someone to be up in my face, then I make sure I don't get in their face.  That defeats the who purpose of me not liking someone all up in my grill trying to punk me.  The other reason is from a self-defense perspective.  I want to be close enough to close the gap if needed and far enough to escape if I needed.  Technically striking and grappling distance should be a few steps away.  If you can engage in grappling or striking without moving in, then you are probably too close.




Anarax said:


> But we never really know until we’re in that moment.


What's that quote about know yourself and know your enemy.   If a person doesn't know what they would do then there's a problem.  You are in denial about something.   Would he have reacted the same way if Mike Tyson touched his face?  If not, then "face touching" isn't some uncontrollable reaction.  People can talk all the Martial Arts super reaction speed, cat instincts, that happened without me knowing.   Yeah.  I don't believe that.  Even a spider will read the situation before it takes on it's prey.  I literally watched a spider decide between 2 meals.  An ant that moved like it was wounded and an ant that looked healthy.  It saw both, moved towards the healthy ant and then changed it's mind and attacked the wounded ant.  I understand the comment of "letting instincts move you." but it's not as clear cut as that.



Anarax said:


> He did call the police to have me arrested but he didn’t know I had footage of the entire event. The police,detectives and investigators watched the video and said it was clear as day that he was the aggressor. In fact the final police report says It was a battery case “Suspect pushed his head against the victims head. Victim retaliated by punching him, suspect kicked out.”


We talked about this soooo many times in here.  Always make sure you have a camera catching what's going on.  It keeps the story honest.  Plus Waldo went to someone's else's house and caused the ruckas. 



Anarax said:


> they were going to mark it as mutual combat but after the investigation the police report lists me as the victim of a battery. Go figure ?


That's the Ego there..  Can't have it both ways.



Anarax said:


> Personally I'm not seeing him going easy on Waldo, it appears he's trying to hit him in the face and he does several times. It looked like Rashun didn't know ground and pound positioning and it was the lack of knowledge to do so effectively is what prevented him from inflicting serious injuries on Waldo, not him choosing to restrain himself.


This is how I see it as well.  There is a difference between going easy and not being able to inflict effective damaged.  I've sparred with people who had such a heavy hit that the thought of them hitting me with the intent to harm was not something I was excited about dealing with.   Some people have that type of punching power or grip strength where you know without a  doubt that they can do much more.   Some people can punch or grip you and you know right away that there's not punch beyond that if a fight broke out.

Land a body shot like that, let that person feel the heaviness of the punch and it's done.  Mike tyson can hit you 20% and all of your scenarios questions would be answered lol.  From what I saw, Rashun didn't have the power to do more than what he did in terms of striking.  I could be wrong, but hit someone really hard in a scenario like that and that person would back up, if they think they are weaker than you after that.

Like my last Sifu told me.  "hit someone hard so they will fear the next punch."


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 1, 2021)

Just for Clarity.  I'm not saying the Wing Chun instructor Rashun can't fight.  I'm just saying that he didn't show that he could fight with Wing Chun.

As for Waldo.  JKD kicks can intercept any kick.  None of that matters if the other person doesn't kick.  In all honesty I don't see many street fights that have kicks in them, unless a person is on the ground.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Jul 1, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Headlines:  JKD fan boy scared to spar with WC Instructor after Instructor offered sparring gear.



JKD wasn't scared. WC said he'd do it slowly for the JKD to try out his moves. JKD said, "Ima kick you for real" (para) and scoffed at WC, then demanded shin guards so he could show/spar WC.

JKD didn't head butt; more like a head push when 2 guys square up & 1 pushes the other, forehead to forehead.  This is staging for a fight.

JKD was a little punk and deserved it.  WC resorted to sloppy MMA.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Jul 1, 2021)

BTW, this WC guy is pretty well respected, he can fight. Just that it's not that easy to KO someone the F out. JKD kid can take a punch. That 1st punch (after the head push), WC slapped him with his left hand, held it there and threw a hook with his right.  There's a video of him on YT, working with 1 of his students; a Boxer, who's not only a high level Pro, but a Title holder. Can't remember the name, but I recall he's a Mexican Boxer. His record on BoxRec was very legit when I was googling around about this backyard fight video a few months ago.


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## jayoliver00 (Jul 1, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> One of my teachers was a student of Wong, Jack Man for about ten years.  He always described Sifu Wong as an exceptional martial artist.
> 
> What I have noticed when people who interacted with Bruce Lee describe him, is the consistency with which they use the term “arrogant”.
> 
> For what it’s worth.



Wong Jack Man was probably just as arrogant when he was Bruce Lee's age. Both young and full of p & vinegar; out looking to make a name for themselves. Bruce Lee used to go around looking for fights to prove himself. He even posted fliers challenging other MA'ists, which was how he ran into Wong. We don't see much of that arrogance nor other poopy to come b/c it was cleaned up by PR and he died so young, becoming a timeless icon. I bet if Steven Seagal died after Under Siege II, he too would be some kinda legend (at least with the Aikido crowd).


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 1, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> BTW, this WC guy is pretty well respected, he can fight. Just that it's not that easy to KO someone the F out. JKD kid can take a punch.


When people see that video they will think,  "He can fight, but he can't fight with WC."



jayoliver00 said:


> There's a video of him on YT, working with 1 of his students; a Boxer, who's not only a high level Pro, but a Title holder.


This doesn't mean anything.  Just because a Boxer wants to learn Wing Chun doesn't mean that the Wing Chun teacher can beat the Boxer.  The Boxer is a title holder.  The Wing Chun Instructor is not.   My guess would be that he probably isn't known for being a fighter either.

I'm just basing this on most of the Kung Fu Sifu's I know.  I may know of 2 or 3 living ones who are known as fighters.  Pick any TMA system and the majority of the teachers aren't known for their fighting ability.  This is especially true with Kung Fu systems.

The same can't be said about boxing coaches or MMA coaches.


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## Anarax (Jul 2, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> BTW, this WC guy is pretty well respected, he can fight.


He might be respected in he's own circle, but unfortunately *this* is what many people will know him for. He showed he's scrappy and gets emotional when confronted. However, I'm not seeing where he showed he's a skilled Martial Artists that can apply his training in a live situation.


jayoliver00 said:


> Just that it's not that easy to KO someone the F out.


That's not what people are criticizing him for. It's that he's spent many years training in a martial art and trains other in said martial art but shows *zero* ability to apply his training in a live situation.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2021)

Anarax said:


> He might be respected in he's own circle, but unfortunately *this* is what many people will know him for. He showed he's scrappy and gets emotional when confronted. However, I'm not seeing where he showed he's a skilled Martial Artists that can apply his training in a live situation.


I'm' with you on this one.  The actions didn't back up the fame. When it came to a small confrontation he failed on so many levels, including the on the display of his martial arts capability.  As someone who strives to be a good representation of Jow Ga kung fu functionality.  It sad to see someone spend so many years training a martial arts only to learn the surface.

The minimum of Wing Chun I would expect to see would be a vertical punch and there wasn't even that.  He abandon all that he trained within that moment. He threw it all away and decided to choose what he thought would give him the best chance of success, and it wasn't Wing Chun.  I feel that is the truth of what I saw.


----------



## TSDTexan (Jul 2, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm' with you on this one.  The actions didn't back up the fame. When it came to a small confrontation he failed on so many levels, including the on the display of his martial arts capability.  As someone who strives to be a good representation of Jow Ga kung fu functionality.  It sad to see someone spend so many years training a martial arts only to learn the surface.
> 
> The minimum of Wing Chun I would expect to see would be a vertical punch and there wasn't even that.  He abandon all that he trained within that moment. He threw it all away and decided to choose what he thought would give him the best chance of success, and it wasn't Wing Chun.  I feel that is the truth of what I saw.



Or protecting his centerline and gates. Where's his posture/structure?

Is it the case that, when he loses his cool and composure, that he reverts to brawling?

Of what use is a martial art that evaporates in the moment of stress? If your art is so well trained it should just flow like water.

I have seen old retired boxers wreck a mugger in two videos. They had been out of a gym for decades but looked pure boxer in form.

It could be that he has cross trained and actually doesn't fight using wing chun at all, but teaches and understands it.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2021)

Grandmaster Yue men quan said:


> Both of them! Wth. First off you don't have to command attention to have an audience. Second off, neither one of them knew anything about what the hell they were doing. A qualified instructor doesn't get emotional about disgraceful behavior or have to set it right its train or go. Come send go. Not come get ruffled and fight like a girl. Follow the actual training in any training hall the fact that this guys proclaims to know wing chun and doesn't even understand the arts maxim makes him a retard. You don't go and challenge a real wing chun practitioner there not going to ground and pound you there going to strike you in the six gate and end your life. Sorry but both of them need alot of work.


Excuse me, fight like a girl ?

You know females can do martial arts and fight too, right? 😒
You obviously mean 'brawl', it's not as if it were fighting.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 3, 2021)

TSDTexan said:


> It could be that he has cross trained and actually doesn't fight using wing chun at all, but teaches and understands it.


I have a 2 part response to this.  It's not a disagreement but for me "Understanding something" is a broad statement and that's where my thoughts on this change.  Not in disagreement but in what it means to me when someone says "they understand something."    I get that from my dad.  As teen, I would tell my dad that "I understand something."  He would get get irritated and tell me that if I understood it then I would have gotten it right.

 first " *It could be that he has cross trained and actually doesn't fight using Wing Chun*"
This is fine with me. I have no problem with this as I believe that there are 2 types of TMA practitioners.  Scholars and Fighters.   If he doesn't use WC to fight then he should be clear with that like Tai Chi for health.  This is just how I feel personally because I think there needs to be more honesty about TMA than what there currently is.

"*Doesn't fight using Wing Chun at all, but teaches and understands it*."  I don't think Wing Chun can be really understood until you fight with it.  This could mean sparring or fighting against another fighting system, a brawler, or anyone non-Wing Chun.  There's things that I understand about Jow Ga kung fu, that some Sifu's don't understand, because of my efforts to use it until I learn how to get it right.  
This is the major problem with a lot of TMA people who never use it.  They try to explain applications that they never used.  This often causes assumptions and incorrect applications to be taught.  The techniques are no problem problem for them.  They get these down perfectly like a cook book. They remember "perfect form." But it's the actual experience of cooking that makes all the difference between Copying and Doing.  Do they understand their kung fu?  Yes but a very small piece of it.

There are a lot of things that can't be learned outside of sparring and fighting.  Which is why so many TMA practioner's bailout of their teachings and training when it comes to actually applying it.  If a person is a TMA scholar then be proud of that as there is no shame in it.  But don't accept or take the fame that is built on assumptions about one's ability.  

That's just me on my moral high horse.  There wouldn't be the TMA vs MMA mess that we have now if people were simply more honest about what they do and the limits of their knowledge.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 3, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Excuse me, fight like a girl ?



You never miss it.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 3, 2021)

TSDTexan said:


> It could be that he has cross trained and actually doesn't fight using wing chun at all, but teaches and understands it.


I dont think knee on belly is in wing chun, and he did that.   So either way you cant say that putting your knee on the person there wasnt a good thing to do. 

Makes snese, some people do kung fu more for conditioning as opposed to fighting, and some styles are more about pushing your body to the limit as opposed to fighting.    

Although, EVERYTHING you know will be tapped into when you do anything.    If you have done any mixture of martial arts if you fight anyone you wont be doing purely any of them just accessing whats valid in the situation.     Its why purism is sort of of bad just because if somone cross trains and you are a purist, you will waste their time trying to fully rewire them to your system.  (which will take years and i doubt can actually be done)


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 3, 2021)

Rat said:


> I dont think knee on belly is in wing chun, and he did that.   So either way you cant say that putting your knee on the person there wasnt a good thing to do.
> 
> Makes snese, some people do kung fu more for conditioning as opposed to fighting, and some styles are more about pushing your body to the limit as opposed to fighting.
> 
> Although, EVERYTHING you know will be tapped into when you do anything.    If you have done any mixture of martial arts if you fight anyone you wont be doing purely any of them just accessing whats valid in the situation.     Its why purism is sort of of bad just because if somone cross trains and you are a purist, you will waste their time trying to fully rewire them to your system.  (which will take years and i doubt can actually be done)


The easy way to answer this is to see if he cross trains.  So far people only know him for Wing Chun and a lot of his explanations sounds of Kung Fu


Anarax said:


> I intentionally kept my gloves on in case things went south he would be somewhat protected.


Sounds of Kung fu.   When we wear gloves and hit the heavy bag, do the gloves protect the bag or our hand?  For me I'm not buying his reasoning even if he actually believed that.  To me it's flawed.  If he was concerned about not injuring waldo then just don't fight.  That fight was 100% optional



Anarax said:


> When He got up he did try to kick me, but I saw his arm move indicating the kick he was about to throw, and I ducked and used a rising fat sao to unbalance him.


I don't know Wing Chun but Fat Sao sounds Wing Chun.  Is this Fat Sao that he's talking about?





or is it this?





I played the video in slow motion and I didn't see it.   For me personally, I'm not sure why he tried to duck that kick in the first place. Maybe to freeze the kick and make the person panic about being on one leg?  What ever the reason I didn't see anything that looked like a "Rising Fat Sao."  Unless that's what a Rising Fat Sao looks like like.

He would have been better off saying that he Cross Trains and that's what came out that day.  Sometimes you punch, Sometimes you grapple.  Sometimes you do both.  But he didn't say that, so there's no need to factor that in.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 3, 2021)

Rat said:


> I dont think knee on belly is in wing chun, and he did that.   So either way you cant say that putting your knee on the person there wasnt a good thing to do.


Wait, what..?  You think a wing Chun guy is not allowed to put his knee on someone’s belly?  You think that everything that someone does in a fight needs to be explicitly taught within the codified curriculum of the system?  You see no room for creative and spontaneous applications?


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 3, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Wait, what..?  You think a wing Chun guy is not allowed to put his knee on someone’s belly?  You think that everything that someone does in a fight needs to be explicitly taught within the codified curriculum of the system?  You see no room for creative and spontaneous applications?


It's important to remember that the poster doesn't actually train or have any experience, so some of his views are more than a little silly.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 3, 2021)

Anarax said:


> I intentionally kept my gloves on in case things went south he would be somewhat protected.


Those gloves don't do anything to protect the person being punched. They protect the punchers hand. So this instructor lacks basic understandings.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 3, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's important to remember that the poster doesn't actually train or have any experience, so some of his views are more than a little silly.


Oh, that hasn’t escaped me.  I was pointing out how ridiculous his statement was.


----------



## Anarax (Jul 4, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Those gloves don't do anything to protect the person being punched. They protect the punchers hand. So this instructor lacks basic understandings.


Wait, what? The next thing you'll tell me is my mouthguard is to protect my teeth and not my opponent's fists.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 4, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Wait, what..?  You think a wing Chun guy is not allowed to put his knee on someone’s belly?  You think that everything that someone does in a fight needs to be explicitly taught within the codified curriculum of the system?  You see no room for creative and spontaneous applications?


No what i was stating was, "i dont think thats part of wing chun" not that the person themselves cant do it.     then i went on about how no one fights purely in one system and its a detriment if you do most of the time.       ie if knee on belly was good there, if you were a purist and it wasnt in the system [wing chun] he wouldnt do it/wouldnt have been taught it. 


If it is or is not in wing chun doesnt seem germane to the point i am tryign to get across, i will welcome a source that its "pure" wing chun though and taught as such.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 4, 2021)

Rat said:


> No what i was stating was, "i dont think thats part of wing chun" not that the person themselves cant do it.     then i went on about how no one fights purely in one system and its a detriment if you do most of the time.       ie if knee on belly was good there, if you were a purist and it wasnt in the system [wing chun] he wouldnt do it/wouldnt have been taught it.
> 
> 
> If it is or is not in wing chun doesnt seem germane to the point i am tryign to get across, i will welcome a source that its "pure" wing chun though and taught as such.


The point I’m trying to get across is that any system is just a framework for training the body how to move and respond, with a body of techniques.  But that is just the beginning.  If someone never sees beyond that formalized curriculum then they haven’t learned anything.  The formalized curriculum in no way represents what may or may not be done, or what all the possibilities are.  So really, the statement that a knee on the belly isn’t part of wing Chun is just an irrelevant thing to even contemplate.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 4, 2021)

Anarax said:


> Wait, what? The next thing you'll tell me is my mouthguard is to protect my teeth and not my opponent's fists.


ha ha ha. that makes sense. Boxers wear mouth guards to protect the other boxers fists.  You know teeth are really dangerous.  Gotta wear puffy gloves because teeth are that dangerous.  You gotta pad up lol.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 4, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's important to remember that the poster doesn't actually train or have any experience, so some of his views are more than a little silly.


Sure





__





						experience_1 noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com
					

Definition of experience_1 noun in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. Meaning, pronunciation, picture, example sentences, grammar, usage notes, synonyms and more.




					www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com
				













						experience
					

1. (the process of getting) knowledge or skill from doing, seeing, or feeling…




					dictionary.cambridge.org
				




If you want to rehash this on every post and borderline if not break the services rules then i am game.   Just note i am not holding anyones (including your) "bad takes" historically against them nor am i rehasing it anywhere as close as often to this.      Nor am i being fallcious about appeal to authortity and posioning the well or what ever else can be contained in this. 


I am pretty sure we have both made out opinions clear about each other the last how ever often this has been rehashed.   

Same applies to anyone else who wants to, you arent getting more than quotations from the dictionary at this point. 

Now i am going to contiue on with the topic at hand in the thread.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 4, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> So really, the statement that a knee on the belly isn’t in wing Chun is just an irrelevant thing to even contemplate.


I know I was looking for some of the core principles of Wing Chun.  I would have looked for the core principles of JKD but that guy was so bad that it wasn't worth it.  I've seen quite a few Wing Chun practitioners fight other systems and win or lose you can see those core concepts trying to be applied

Here's what is said to be a Wing Chun fight.  Talking about someone taking punches.  This dude took some punches. But that's besides the point.  You can see that even on the losing side, he's trying to work those core principles.  Both of the fights below were more serious than the WC vs JKD fight.  If WC didn't come out during that fight, then I don't think WC will come out when the heat gets turned up.





Same here.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 4, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> ha ha ha. that makes sense. Boxers wear mouth guards to protect the other boxers fists.  You know teeth are really dangerous.  Gotta wear puffy gloves because teeth are that dangerous.  You gotta pad up lol.


In all seriousness, teeth really are. Of all the wounds we deal with in the ER, bites are just about the only ones that will be started on antibiotics every time. Because they have such a stupidly high infection rate.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 4, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> The point I’m trying to get across is that any system is just a framework for training the body how to move and respond, with a body of techniques.  But that is just the beginning.  If someone never sees beyond that formalized curriculum then they haven’t learned anything.  The formalized curriculum in no way represents what may or may not be done, or what all the possibilities are.  So really, the statement that a knee on the belly isn’t in wing Chun is just an irrelevant thing to even contemplate.




The status of "system" does imply codification within a framework, yes.    I will accept a body of techniques in this definition. 

That is all there is, the "system" is the "system", there is a start, middle and end.   If you go beyond the "formalized curriculem" you arent in the system anymore.  The system normally ends or becomes blurred with ending near lets say "black belt" in TMA.  There is a harder end in some, more of a blurred soft end in others.   But thats not up for dispute.

The curriculem represents what is taught to be  done and not done, which in turns effects what is done and not done.   I agree that does not represent everything that can be done in fighting, but it represents what that system teaches, if you only have one throw, it doesnt matter that there are 6 throws, the system only has one and unless you go outside it, you will only be taught one.

this is where i think you didnt understand my point correctly (who evers fault not relivent).  The statement "knee on the belly isn’t in wing Chun", is in context to a argument about wing chun fighting ability.    It is relivent to contemplate as wing chun is a system, so that technique is either in it or not.      And this stems the tangent on purism, purism would be only sticking to your system and letting people do things in your system, ergo, no knee on belly if its not in Wing Chun.    I know there are, gods knows how many wing chuns out there, but thats besides the point.

Just to be clear, i am anti purism and dont think it really works well, if you can even achive it.   I am doubtful to if you can achive proper purism.

Hopefully that cleared some things up.  Now grante di could have mis read part of the argument i replied in the middle to, and i did a general reply not quoting what specfically i was replying to.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 4, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> In all seriousness, teeth really are. Of all the wounds we deal with in the ER, bites are just about the only ones that will be started on antibiotics every time. Because they have such a stupidly high infection rate.


That doesn't surprise me considering the bacteria that we have in our mouth.  Some of us have more than others and not in a good way. lol.

Just out of curiosity.  What are the bite marks usually from fights at the bar?  Where are they usually located?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 4, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That doesn't surprise me considering the bacteria that we have in our mouth.  Some of us have more than others and not in a good way. lol.
> 
> Just out of curiosity.  What are the bite marks usually from fights at the bar?  Where are they usually located?


Hands. They're not technically bites, fight bites are usually caused by the fist impacting on the teeth. I teach students to avoid punching someone in the mouth. It's too easy to hurt themselves, and it's at least as effective, if not more so, to aim for the point of the chin or the philtrum.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 4, 2021)

Rat said:


> The status of "system" does imply codification within a framework, yes.    I will accept a body of techniques in this definition.
> 
> That is all there is, the "system" is the "system", there is a start, middle and end.   If you go beyond the "formalized curriculem" you arent in the system anymore.  The system normally ends or becomes blurred with ending near lets say "black belt" in TMA.  There is a harder end in some, more of a blurred soft end in others.   But thats not up for dispute.
> 
> ...


I think you do not understand what you are talking about. 

The system no more dictates what is possible or allowed than a physics textbook is the sum total of what a physicist can do in his/her profession.  The textbook provides a framework for learning how to approach a problem and examples of the kinds of problems that a physicist may deal with.  It teaches concepts through practical examples, but does not place limits on what is possible with that education.  But if you cannot go beyond the textbook and apply what you have learned creatively to solve unique problems, then you are not a physicist, even though you passed the class.

Using martial arts in an actual encounter is about applying your training to a unique situation.  That often means creative application and even doing things that are not part of the codified/formalized curriculum.  That in no way means you are outside the system or are no longer using your training.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 4, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Hands. They're not technically bites, fight bites are usually caused by the fist impacting on the teeth. I teach students to avoid punching someone in the mouth. It's too easy to hurt themselves, and it's at least as effective, if not more so, to aim for the point of the chin or the philtrum.


ahhh. people who think that it's actually good to punch the one thing on the human body designed to cut flesh. 

I'm like you.  I have no interest in giving someone a bloody lip via punch.  I just took a look at some photos of people who punch teeth, nasty wounds (Fight Bite).


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 4, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> ahhh. people who think that it's actually good to punch the one thing on the human body designed to cut flesh.
> 
> I'm like you.  I have no interest in giving someone a bloody lip via punch.  I just took a look at some photos of people who punch teeth, nasty wounds (Fight Bite).


They really are. Punching someone in the mouth is one of those things that _*seems*_ like a good idea. Until you do it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 4, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I think you do not understand what you are talking about.
> 
> The system no more dictates what is possible or allowed than a physics textbook is the sum total of what a physicist can do in his/her profession.  The textbook provides a framework for learning how to approach a problem and examples of the kinds of problems that a physicist may deal with.  It teaches concepts through practical examples, but does not place limits on what is possible with that education.  But if you cannot go beyond the textbook and apply what you have learned creatively to solve unique problems, then you are not a physicist, even though you passed the class.
> 
> Using martial arts in an actual encounter is about applying your training to a unique situation.  That often means creative application and even doing things that are not part of the codified/formalized curriculum.  That in no way means you are outside the system or are no longer using your training.


I think the confusion is probably due to how TMA systems are often portrayed.  Different schools will train the same system but follow different theories and concepts. and that's often lost on people who don't train in a TMA. 
Those who train in a TMA understand this because it often comes up in regular school conversations about how Sifu A trains and teaches like this and Sifu B trains and teaches differently.  Then you go to Vietnam and it's a totally different approach but it's the same System or Family.  Many people don't realize that Curriculum = Teacher Preference.  

There are also common fight actions that one may take that is so common that it doesn't below to any system and as such is not recognized as part of the system, but an option that can be done within the system.  TMA schools trying to stay in the dark doesn't help clarify things.  It just leaves people open to make their own assumptions about what they are seeing.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 4, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think the confusion is probably due to how TMA systems are often portrayed.  Different schools will train the same system but follow different theories and concepts. and that's often lost on people who don't train in a TMA.
> Those who train in a TMA understand this because it often comes up in regular school conversations about how Sifu A trains and teaches like this and Sifu B trains and teaches differently.  Then you go to Vietnam and it's a totally different approach but it's the same System or Family.  Many people don't realize that Curriculum = Teacher Preference.
> 
> There are also common fight actions that one may take that is so common that it doesn't below to any system and as such is not recognized as part of the system, but an option that can be done within the system.  TMA schools trying to stay in the dark doesn't help clarify things.  It just leaves people open to make their own assumptions about what they are seeing.


And it doesn’t help when those making the assumptions have no experience with it.


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## Buka (Jul 4, 2021)

Boxing gloves were originally made to protect a punchers hands, not to protect an opponent's head.
The term boxers fracture (or brawlers fracture) is a break in the metacarpal of the ring or pinky finger, because boxers punching with their hands wrapped and taped, hook punch with the wrong part of their hand. Good martial artists know the proper part of the fist to hit with. It's why we do knuckle pushups on our front two knuckles and on our front two knuckles only.

Mouth guards are designed to protect your teeth, lips, mouth and jaw from damage when hit in the face, it's why we have dentists make them for us. We don't go to an opponents hand surgeon to get a mouthpiece, we go to a good dentist.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 4, 2021)

Buka said:


> Mouth guards are designed to protect your teeth


I have a video of a person I was sparring with who chipped his tooth by himself.  I got it on video, but I think he was reacting to me attacking him and he moved his head in a way that caused his teeth to clash, and that's all that it took.  

When it happened people where like.  What happened? Because he turned like he got hit.  At first we didn't know what to think because we assumed he had his mouth guard in.  It wasn't until we were sure he was ok, that we learned he chipped his tooth.  He was fortunate that he chipped his own tooth.  It could have been much worse had he been punched in the right way.


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## Buka (Jul 4, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I have a video of a person I was sparring with who chipped his tooth by himself.  I got it on video, but I think he was reacting to me attacking him and he moved his head in a way that caused his teeth to clash, and that's all that it took.
> 
> When it happened people where like.  What happened? Because he turned like he got hit.  At first we didn't know what to think because we assumed he had his mouth guard in.  It wasn't until we were sure he was ok, that we learned he chipped his tooth.  He was fortunate that he chipped his own tooth.  It could have been much worse had he been punched in the right way.


Stuff happens sometimes, but I'll bet you'll never let a student fight without a mouthpiece again.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 4, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I think you do not understand what you are talking about.
> 
> The system no more dictates what is possible or allowed than a physics textbook is the sum total of what a physicist can do in his/her profession. The textbook provides a framework for learning how to approach a problem and examples of the kinds of problems that a physicist may deal with. It teaches concepts through practical examples, but does not place limits on what is possible with that education. But if you cannot go beyond the textbook and apply what you have learned creatively to solve unique problems, then you are not a physicist, even though you passed the class.



I dont understand how this is a rebuttal to any points i made, and i dont really understand the refrence or the greater point here.    It looks like more of a strawman as im having a hard time finding where it attached to.  

I do  take issue with the science anaology though, as thats not very good.  A better refrence is "if you are in a physics class, you dont learn biology" .   Or to textbook it, a physics textbook is about physics not biology.


Now i will highlight the second part and reply to that with hopes it makes my point clear to clear up any poteional confustion and straw manning.    





Flying Crane said:


> Using martial arts in an actual encounter is about applying your training to a unique situation.* That often means creative application and even doing things that are not part of the codified/formalized curriculum. That in no way means you are outside the system or are no longer using your training.**


*I only disagree with your choice of words here.   A combat system would teach you what ever is in its currcilem and you would apply it to come to a combat solution when needed.  

Now, the second half** of this is where a contradiction comes up.  

"That often means creative application and even doing things that are not part of the codified/formalized curriculum. That in no way means you are outside the system or are no longer using your training."

I have rewritten the above to better illistrate my point and remove what i view as a strawman.

"That often means creative application and even doing things that are not part of the System. That in no way means you are outside the system"

As you can see, i changed "codified/formalized curriculum" to "system" as i belive we agreed or i stated i support that as the definition of system.   And i removed  "or are no longer using your training.", as i view this as a strawman.   I never said you wouldnt be using your training if you weere trained in something and used it.


In short, those words are a contradiction, you have stated you can go beyond your system and still be using your system as that makes no sense in a limited system.    Unless you mean a unlimited which i did not think you meant and dont support in this context.    I have no evidence that Wing chun is a unlimited system, it has a specfic area of combat it explores and stays in.    Among other reasons i find that point silly.



Addendum:  


Flying Crane said:


> I think you do not understand what you are talking about.


There was abolutely no need for that statement, i did not place any blame on anyone for any mis understandings.      I accepted you could have mis read something or i could have mis worded something that lead to confusion.    

As i do belive there is a legitimate misunderstanding here.    I dont really see how this leads off each other, other than some word and definiton issues which indicates potetionally some mis understanding.




Rat said:


> this is where i think you didnt understand my point correctly (who evers fault not relivent).


  That would be the quote, thats diffrent in tone to the above quote.


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2021)

Anarax said:


> Wait, what? The next thing you'll tell me is my mouthguard is to protect my teeth and not my opponent's fists.



There is a theory going around that it is that case with gloves. And because martial artists love a good story. A lot have people have turned it into a fact.

I am sceptical. But then I know some bare knuckle guys.

It is a very convenient way of explaining why you can't box without saying you are garbage at boxing.

So dudes like this guy.






And you go like. "Hey bro. The now have bare knuckle championships as a mainstream competition. You should be like totally in your wheelhouse right now"

And they be like "................"


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 4, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> *I think the confusion is probably due to how TMA systems are often portrayed.  Different schools will train the same system but follow different theories and concepts. and that's often lost on people who don't train in a TMA.
> Those who train in a TMA understand this because it often comes up in regular school conversations about how Sifu A trains and teaches like this and Sifu B trains and teaches differently.  Then you go to Vietnam and it's a totally different approach but it's the same System or Family.  Many people don't realize that Curriculum = Teacher Preference.
> 
> **There are also common fight actions that one may take that is so common that it doesn't below to any system and as such is not recognized as part of the system, but an option that can be done within the system.  TMA schools trying to stay in the dark doesn't help clarify things.  It just leaves people open to make their own assumptions about what they are seeing.


*this is not helped by using a ill defined system, and switching between a generic system and say wing chun.

I tried to cover my bases in that some systems have a hard end, others its a soft not really true end, so at the ending of it, it more or less blurrs out as opposed to stops.   Like in your example, if a 3rd degree black belt leaves and starts his own school with his own prefrences of the style, thats a soft end.     If he leaves witht he exact same curriclem, its a hard.     Obviously not that abolsutist or clear, but examples.



**That is also the issue here, that i thought for sake of agrument was removed, there are finite principles and techniques that work, and many in the same area draw on each other sprinciples and technqies.   Its a easier exmaple to go "boxing doesnt kick, so anything with kicking isnt boxing"   as opposed to this hip throw is in 6 diffrent systems, so each of these systems are the same.


For sake of argument i thought we were going with the more boxing esque example, than the "this technique is in 6 seperate systems"

i dont actually know whats in wing chun, hence the avoidance of specfically citing it, nor is it really relivent to anything i wrote, for sake of argument this isnt in wing chun even if it is.  And there are  like 6 WC linges that all claim pure legitimacy?   Let alone the small chains.   (not really relivent either, as you can insert any style in here and that was the full intent of the argument, or at least most)

I do know how ever, it does not contain everything and focues on a specfic area of combat.


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2021)

Rat said:


> I do know how ever, it does not contain everything and focues on a specfic area of combat.



The problem is there are two questions which break this theory. And religion gets this treatment a bit as well.

According to who?

Why does that person have ownership over what is and isn't wing chun?


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 4, 2021)

Buka said:


> Stuff happens sometimes, but I'll bet you'll never let a student fight without a mouthpiece again.


Now that I think about it, he may have forgotten it that day and he thought he could get away without wearing it and didn't want to give up the opportunity so he gave up the tooth ha ha ha.    I've seen him wear one before during sparring class so he wasn't on my list of "check mouths" before sparring.  He should have told, maybe the school had a extra one new in pack that he could by.  Or maybe they knew of a place close buy where he could have quickly picked one up..  Or just let it be one of those days where you just miss out on sparring.   It  sucks but no where near as bad as chipping a tooth.

One of those Youth Mistakes that he probably won't make ever again.  If he becomes a Martial Arts teacher,  He would be the one that "rides everyone's back " about a mouthpiece. ha ha ha.

As for my approach.  I'll probably just buy a few extras to have on hand in case someone forgets to bring theirs so they don't miss out.  I just won't tell anyone that I have them.  

As for me not letting people spar without a mouth piece. That was always the rule of the school.  You can't spar without a mouth piece and that was long before I became an an instructor.  It's a safety issue and a liability for the school to have students spar without the appropriate sparring equipment.    I think he was just young and dumb and full of more dumb lol.  But I'm sure he learned why we say wear a mouth piece.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 4, 2021)

drop bear said:


> There is a theory going around that it is that case with gloves. And because martial artists love a good story. A lot have people have turned it into a fact.
> 
> I am sceptical. But then I know some bare knuckle guys.
> 
> ...


Gloves only affect certain TMA punches.  The best example I can give is downward punches.  Downward punches using gloves is no problem.  Downward punches without gloves off hurts big time because the exposed knuckles can now dig into muscle tissue.  But other than that, padded knuckle should be landing with force to where it doesn't matter much if the knuckles are padded.  

But you are correct a lot of kung fu people make up the excuse,  Then when you see them spar with the gloves off the strikes are similar to what their opponent is throwing.  I've done Jow Ga with gloves off, with mma gloves, and with boxing gloves.  I still threw Jow Ga.  I had to be focused with how I formed my fist in boxing gloves, but I was still able to do so.  The only thing that I didn't like is that the boxing gloves take up too much space.  Techniques where I could tread my punch were useless because of the size of the gloves, but even that wasn't a game stopper.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 4, 2021)

.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 4, 2021)

Rat said:


> I dont understand how this is a rebuttal to any points i made, and i dont really understand the refrence or the greater point here.    It looks like more of a strawman as im having a hard time finding where it attached to.
> 
> I do  take issue with the science anaology though, as thats not very good.  A better refrence is "if you are in a physics class, you dont learn biology" .   Or to textbook it, a physics textbook is about physics not biology.
> 
> ...


The codified curriculum doesn’t necessarily define the system, at all. The system teaches an approach. Anything that fits the principles of that approach can be considered part of the system by the practitioner. I could easily name a dozen techniques I use and consider within NGA that are definitely not part of the codified curriculum.


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## MadMartigan (Jul 4, 2021)

The cost of Ego, disrespect, and the failure of teachers and students.​


TSDTexan said:


> The teacher let his ego become wounded and missed the opportunity to teach the student. His fighting didn't look like Wing Chun at all, just angry physical violence. There was no Gung Fu ( excellence ) displayed.


Then this:









						7-Year-Old Taiwanese Boy Taken Off Life Support After Suffering Brain Hemorrhage, Judo Coach Charged
					

A seven-year-old boy in Taiwan was taken off life support months after being repeatedly thrown to the floor in a judo class. His coach has been indicted.




					www.complex.com
				




This is what an instructor's ego can cost. 

I believe anytime an instructor becomes violent against a student, no matter whether there was disrespect, it is completely and only the instructor's failure.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 4, 2021)

D Hall said:


> The cost of Ego, disrespect, and the failure of teachers and students.​
> Then this:
> 
> 
> ...


The WC vs JKD might be a different thing.  The JKD guy wasn't a student, nor a child being punished.   This would be more along the lines of Alpha Male issues


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## isshinryuronin (Jul 5, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> The codified curriculum doesn’t necessarily define the system, at all. The system teaches an approach


_Very_ well said. Not only does the curriculum not define the system, it doesn't limit it either. It should be just considered the main framework. School teachers follow a set curriculum, but often stray from, or add to it, to answer a question or further illustrate some relevant idea with greater depth. (Though nowadays, this is discouraged so as not to conflict with the dogmatic approach of the powers that be.)

To use my system as an example - We have _kihon, _which are the codified basic blocks, kicks and punches, as well as a few other strikes. Downward elbows, single knuckle punches, high thrusting and spinning kicks and many other techniques are not included. Nor do these moves occur in any of our kata. But nowhere is it written that these moves are forbidden. It's just that they're not considered to be necessary to the system's approach.

The curriculum is the tool box, the WHAT.  The system is HOW to best apply those tools within that system's concept or approach to combat.

In my system's approach, these tools are to be used in close quarters (so long distance moves are not in the tool box,) applied to cause the most damage, every move considered offensive, special kicks targeting low targets, grabbing (another CQC tactic) snapping punches to return to guard (among other reasons,) high mobility stances, and simultaneous defense and offense. 

It is these things that give _identity _to the system, not the curriculum. In other words, "The codified curriculum does not...define the system...," - It's more like the system defines the curriculum.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 5, 2021)

Rat said:


> *this is not helped by using a ill defined system, and switching between a generic system and say wing chun.
> .


What is a “generic system” in martial arts?  It doesn’t exist.  See, you make statements like this am that tell me how much you don’t grasp what you are talking about.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 5, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> The codified curriculum doesn’t necessarily define the system, at all. The system teaches an approach. Anything that fits the principles of that approach can be considered part of the system by the practitioner. I could easily name a dozen techniques I use and consider within NGA that are definitely not part of the codified curriculum.


Principles was not mentioned as part of the definiton here, it was "body of techniques".    I agreed to that definiton being acceptable for this argument to be called a "system".      Actually, something along the lines of a "codified/formalised currcilem of a body of techniques" is a system.

Using principles has a lot more caviates involved in it.  Principles are more finite and universal, how you punch is pretty much universally the same, we are all humans and generate power the same, how you go about it is diffrent.     That would mean, say Wing chun and Krav maga are considered the same system because they both use the same princples (when apt), i dont agree with that. Thats why i didnt use principle.     


I dont nesssisarily disagree with your point, it just seems outside scope of argument.     The above can also depend on how you define principle.

To better highlight my point:
"I use and consider within NGA that are definitely not part of the codified curriculum."

Then its not NGA, removing say you as head, say you died and left behind the curriclem and they didnt change it.    The techniques wouldnt be taught in NGA, nor would you go into NGA to learn them if you wanted to.    By all means you can go to the other systems, learn them and use them, but it wont be NGA until its included in the codified currcilem.       Now obviously, this is the blurred line as many techniques are in many systems. But its still a line.

Also, not really pertaining to the argument, if you consider them part of NGA, why haven you not codified them into NGA?     No one should be taught them in NGA if they arent in the currculem.   


Addendum:        I have a good idea to explain what i mean by thinking of system as athe conversion of a principle into technique for the context.    But ona  more macro scale.    If we use it for boxing it would go, principles used in the rules of boxing being applied to techniques for use in boxing.     The valdity of the system of boxing is clared to how similar something is to boxing.

this is early days and i may post a addendum when i have thought about it more, as thinking about it now has made me confused.   And i ahve spent way too much time writing this.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 5, 2021)

Rat said:


> I dont understand how this is a rebuttal to any points i made, and i dont really understand the refrence or the greater point here.    It looks like more of a strawman as im having a hard time finding where it attached to.
> 
> I do  take issue with the science anaology though, as thats not very good.  A better refrence is "if you are in a physics class, you dont learn biology" .   Or to textbook it, a physics textbook is about physics not biology.


You would be mistaken.  My textbook analogy is spot on.  When you learn a discipline, memorizing the textbook is not the point.  The point is understanding what the textbook teaches you, and creatively using those lesson where you need.  When a physicist is faced with a problem, he doesn’t search the textbook for an identical example that he can simply cut-and-past.  He may review the textbook for principles and lessons, but he still needs to come up with the solution to his problem.

Martial training is the same.  The system and the codified curriculum gives lessons and examples.  But they are not the totality of the skills.  You do with it as you need, and I reiterate, that does NOT mean you are no longer using your training in the system, if your solution is not identical to something from the codified curriculum.

This again tells me that you don’t understand this stuff.  Learning a martial system is not about regurgitating answers that your teacher gave you.  It is about using your understanding to do what needs to be done, whatever that means. 


Rat said:


> Now i will highlight the second part and reply to that with hopes it makes my point clear to clear up any poteional confustion and straw manning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again, showing that you do not understand this.  The system is not the list of codified curriculum.  The codified curriculum is examples and suggestions, and a platform for training.  Those CAN be directly useful and can be applied as such.  But they are NOT mandatory as solutions.    You just don’t have an understanding of what the system is.  The rest of what you have written is just nonsense. 


Rat said:


> Addendum:
> 
> There was abolutely no need for that statement, i did not place any blame on anyone for any mis understandings.      I accepted you could have mis read something or i could have mis worded something that lead to confusion.
> 
> ...


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 5, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> What is a “generic system” in martial arts?  It doesn’t exist.  See, you make statements like this am that tell me how much you don’t grasp what you are talking about.


I never said there are "generic systems", generic to mean not specfic.  In other words drawing from martial arts as a whole as opposed to a specfic system for argumentation purposes.

Also, if i used a specfic system like say wing chun i would just "i dont know anything about wing chun so cant comment on it" despite the fact im not commenting on it and whats done in it just using it for argumentation purposes.     In other words, would get strawmaned. 


generic​ adjective

 
shared by, including or typical of a whole group of things; not specific
‘Vine fruit’ is the generic term for currants and raisins.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 5, 2021)

Rat said:


> I never said there are "generic systems", generic to mean not specfic.  In other words drawing from martial arts as a whole as opposed to a specfic system for argumentation purposes.
> 
> Also, if i used a specfic system like say wing chun i would just "i dont know anything about wing chun so cant comment on it" despite the fact im not commenting on it and whats done in it just using it for argumentation purposes.     In other words, would get strawmaned.
> 
> ...


Of course I know what the definition of generic is, I don’t need you to explain that to me.  But you made a distinction between a generic system and a specific one such as wing Chun.  There is no generic martial system. You are comparing two specific systems or none at all.   There is no generic system.  There is no generic punch, for example.  There is only a punch done according to the principles underlying a specific system.  That can be similar or even identical between certain systems, or can be quite different.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 5, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> ou would be mistaken. My textbook analogy is spot on. When you learn a discipline, memorizing the textbook is not the point. The point is understanding what the textbook teaches you, and creatively using those lesson where you need. When a physicist is faced with a problem, he doesn’t search the textbook for an identical example that he can simply cut-and-past. He may review the textbook for principles and lessons, but he still needs to come up with the solution to his problem.


Im not arguing over a specfic anaology but to be clear cut.    You are telling me a physics textbook will contain biology and teach you biology.  That is what i am interpriting you are telling me.


Im dropping this, there is clearly a mis understanding at some point here. and this is just going to go on repeat as its centred around a fundemental disagreement in defintion or mis understanding in it.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 5, 2021)

Rat said:


> Im not arguing over a specfic anaology but to be clear cut.    You are telling me a physics textbook will contain biology and teach you biology.  That is what i am interpriting you are telling me.


Then you are wrong.  I am not saying that anywhere. 


Rat said:


> Im dropping this, there is clearly a mis understanding at some point here. and this is just going to go on repeat as its centred around a fundemental disagreement in defintion or mis understanding in it.


You can drop it if you want.  It is clear to me that what you really want is to understand this stuff, but you don’t.  I suggest you open your mind and read and contemplate what others here are saying.  Stop clinging to an uneducated position and be willing to learn from people here.  Stop trying to make declarations about which you do not know.

I try to give you credit when you have a valid point that others are dismissive about.  I can recognize when that is happening, and in the past I’ve tried to back you up on things.  But in this case, you simply do not have a grasp of what a martial system or method really is.  You see it on a superficial level, which can be functional, but falls short of a real understanding.  You do not understand this.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 5, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> You can drop it if you want. It is clear to me that what you really want is to understand this stuff, but you don’t. I suggest you open your mind and read and contemplate what others here are saying. Stop clinging to an uneducated position and be willing to learn from people here. Stop trying to make declarations about which you do not know.
> 
> I try to give you credit when you have a valid point that others are dismissive about. I can recognize when that is happening, and in the past I’ve tried to back you up on things. But in this case, you simply do not have a grasp of what a martial system or method really is. You see it on a superficial level, which can be functional, but falls short of a real understanding. You do not understand this.



That would be your opinion on the matter but as far as mine pertains to the argument at hand and a breif review of the chain of posts, there was a mis understanding that created a strawman.

And the status of "open mind" is willingness to persue evidence, of which i do.   Any decleration other wise is completely fradulent.

Addendum:  Im pretty sure @drop bear  can back me up in that citation of actual evidence is a issue in the greater martial arts community.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 5, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The problem is there are two questions which break this theory. And religion gets this treatment a bit as well.
> 
> According to who?
> 
> Why does that person have ownership over what is and isn't wing chun?




I am not touching that with a 100 metre stick.    that is one rabbit hole i dont want any part of.  

No true scotsman is quite a thing.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 5, 2021)

Rat said:


> That would be your opinion on the matter but as far as mine pertains to the argument at hand and a breif review of the chain of posts, there was a mis understanding that created a strawman.
> 
> And the status of "open mind" is willingness to persue evidence, of which i do.   Any decleration other wise is completely fradulent.
> 
> Addendum:  Im pretty sure @drop bear  can back me up in that citation of actual evidence is a issue in the greater martial arts community.


I don’t read his contributions.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 5, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> _Very_ well said. Not only does the curriculum not define the system, it doesn't limit it either. It should be just considered the main framework. School teachers follow a set curriculum, but often stray from, or add to it, to answer a question or further illustrate some relevant idea with greater depth. (Though nowadays, this is discouraged so as not to conflict with the dogmatic approach of the powers that be.)
> 
> To use my system as an example - We have _kihon, _which are the codified basic blocks, kicks and punches, as well as a few other strikes. Downward elbows, single knuckle punches, high thrusting and spinning kicks and many other techniques are not included. Nor do these moves occur in any of our kata. But nowhere is it written that these moves are forbidden. It's just that they're not considered to be necessary to the system's approach.
> 
> ...


Yes. And even a step further, in some cases. For instance, NGA's formal curriculum (as brought to the US and as preserved in the NGAA and most offshoots) doesn't contain a basic hip throw. But Judo is one of our foundation arts, and many of the instructors include a basic hip throw in their teaching. If you look at a few of our techniques (when properly executed), the lack of the hip throw seems odd (we have a Judo-style leg sweep and shoulder throw, among others). But if we accept that the formal curriculum is - as you said - a framework, then it's pretty easy to see that all the principles are covered within the core curriculum. The actual technique is never tested in most places (most instructors focus testing 80% or more on the formal core), but the technique pretty clearly fits.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 5, 2021)

Rat said:


> Then its not NGA, removing say you as head, say you died and left behind the curriclem and they didnt change it. The techniques wouldnt be taught in NGA, nor would you go into NGA to learn them if you wanted to.


This highlights your misunderstanding. See, I'm not the head. I teach a few students. Other NGA instructors (not all of them) also teach many of these techniques. They all - if they are teaching reasonably well - are teaching the principles that are necessary to work them. Students sometimes even "discover" them on their own before they are introduced, because they are within the basic framework of principles.

And, no, having some overlapping principles doesn't make two systems the same. Judo and NGA share a large number of grappling principles. Even ignoring our striking, anyone who knows grappling wouldn't mistake one system for the other if they visited multiple classes. But that would onlly apply to someone who has an understanding of grappling. Easier if they are familiar with one of those two styles, but I think a competent wrestler would pick up some of the differences. And the same is true in a different direction for NGA and Aikido - which are more visually similar in most of our core curriulum. What differentiates systems is the difference in the principles they focus on, although there will be overlapping principles at play.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 5, 2021)

Rat said:


> Im not arguing over a specfic anaology but to be clear cut.    You are telling me a physics textbook will contain biology and teach you biology.  That is what i am interpriting you are telling me.
> 
> 
> Im dropping this, there is clearly a mis understanding at some point here. and this is just going to go on repeat as its centred around a fundemental disagreement in defintion or mis understanding in it.


There is overlap between physics and biology (for instance, looking into the conservation of energy problems involved in transmitting neurological signals). So, yes, at times when you discuss biology, you can end up also talking about physics. And a physics textbook definitely contains information that applies to biology (pressure, leverage, etc.).


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 5, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> And, no, having some overlapping principles doesn't make two systems the same.


This would be like cars.  They share overlapping principles but it doesn't make the cars the same.  An electric car has overlapping principles of a gas car.  But they aren't the same.


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## Steve (Jul 5, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This would be like cars.  They share overlapping principles but it doesn't make the cars the same.  An electric car has overlapping principles of a gas car.  But they aren't the same.


But they are both cars.  Isn't this all relative?  I mean, an electric car is more like an ICE car than is like an electric bike?  At least, if you're looking at it relative to the wheelbase and number of folks it can carry, and other similar "car like" things.  But if you're looking at it relative to the drivetrain maybe the electric car is more like a an electric bike.

Or are you saying that nothing is really the same as anything else?  In which case, Wing Chun really isn't Wing Chun when taught by two different people.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 6, 2021)

Steve said:


> But they are both cars.  Isn't this all relative?  I mean, an electric car is more like an ICE car than is like an electric bike?  At least, if you're looking at it relative to the wheelbase and number of folks it can carry, and other similar "car like" things.  But if you're looking at it relative to the drivetrain maybe the electric car is more like a an electric bike.
> 
> Or are you saying that nothing is really the same as anything else?  In which case, Wing Chun really isn't Wing Chun when taught by two different people.


True. And that's where a "grappling system" is like a "car" in the analogy. Grappling systems share more in common than a grappling system has in common with a striking system (a system that uses both has overlap with both, of course). And if you look at some core principle, you might find something analogous to that drive train example. So, maybe a striking system that uses more circular approaches has something in common with Aikido that it doesn't have in common with Shotokan (which is pretty angular, as I understand it).


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## Steve (Jul 6, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> True. And that's where a "grappling system" is like a "car" in the analogy. Grappling systems share more in common than a grappling system has in common with a striking system (a system that uses both has overlap with both, of course). And if you look at some core principle, you might find something analogous to that drive train example. So, maybe a striking system that uses more circular approaches has something in common with Aikido that it doesn't have in common with Shotokan (which is pretty angular, as I understand it).


Sure, but just to be clear, one may also say that judo has more in common with western boxing than aikido.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 6, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> This highlights your misunderstanding. See, I'm not the head. I teach a few students. Other NGA instructors (not all of them) also teach many of these techniques. They all - if they are teaching reasonably well - are teaching the principles that are necessary to work them. Students sometimes even "discover" them on their own before they are introduced, because they are within the basic framework of principles.
> 
> And, no, having some overlapping principles doesn't make two systems the same. Judo and NGA share a large number of grappling principles. Even ignoring our striking, anyone who knows grappling wouldn't mistake one system for the other if they visited multiple classes. But that would onlly apply to someone who has an understanding of grappling. Easier if they are familiar with one of those two styles, but I think a competent wrestler would pick up some of the differences. And the same is true in a different direction for NGA and Aikido - which are more visually similar in most of our core curriulum. What differentiates systems is the difference in the principles they focus on, although there will be overlapping principles at play.


Fair enough, i thought you were the head/had significant say in the day to day of the style.   If anyone who was head said they deemed X part of their system but didnt have it in there, i would question it.


The diffrence is in applciation, of principles, so techniques.       You still follow the same few principles to achive something.   The number of principles i do not know, but the exact number doesnt matter, its finite.     The perfect straight punch is the stepping punch you learn in TKD and karate(for the sake of argument it is), is that valid for actual fighting and can you pull that off in actual fighting?   very limited.    This is just where my deviation shows, i draw systems on technique as opposed to principles, they should be following one of the valid principles to devolope their techniques.

Unless we ID  and designated a few principles that are for the same thing i dont think we can really have the argument proper, because we need to ID if they all use the same, or which principle they use.    Where as you can get another list of finite techniques off of one principle. 

I dont disagree, im just drawing my definition off technique as opposed to principle, principle comes before technique.   At least how i use both and have defined.  (i think i defined principle)

As far as i understand the martial arts model for how its normally used, there is a principle, you then show one or two techniques for how to apply said principle, the issue people have ID'ed is you stop at just learning the technique as opposed to the principle.   So instead of learning the principle you memorise the techniques, but thats not bad if its technique based, its within the context of what you are aiming for.     

You could maybe build a system off of pure principles, but i think very few are so its a exeption to the rule as opposed to the rule.  The user just needs to know enough to apply it for their task, if you wish to teach you need to know enough to explain the context and reasoning to better teach it. 


Both technique and principle are ill defined for martial arts to say the least, thats why these agruments still happen.  Wasnt there a phase of technique vs principle based learning argumentation one time on the internet?   I feel like it was a phase. 


gpseymour said:


> There is overlap between physics and biology (for instance, looking into the conservation of energy problems involved in transmitting neurological signals). So, yes, at times when you discuss biology, you can end up also talking about physics. And a physics textbook definitely contains information that applies to biology (pressure, leverage, etc.).


See, i knew this was coming.       the other two sciences are technically applications of physics, but i am not getting into the science purity nonsense, lest a mathematician appear.

But, inter displinary subjects are considered that, their own thing.  If they are grouped into one, its which ever is dominant or which ever science takes contol of it.   I belive bio chem is in biology as opposed to chemistry.   I could be wrong i havent looked that one up in a while.
You woud still learn physics and physics theory in physics, you wont learn the theory of biology in physics or chemistry, nor would you learn any of the others in any of the others unless you go into one of the inter displinary subjects.*     Which should be their own thing.    Somone who specilises in bio chem doesnt say "they are a biologist or chemist" they normally say they specilise in bio chem.    Or call themselves a bio chemist.  At least as far as i know, they would use bio chemist as their name. 

this is kind of a flawed point as you normally do combined science and learn them all together, your sort of isolating things that are and should be taught together, kind of like striking and grappling. 

*You may use the theories of physics and biology etc outside their subjects, but you shouldnt be taught it/only be taught the applied version for your subject.     I slightly misread your point so i overlooked you stating the theories of physics used in biology.    Still a cheap move subject to choose as physics is technically literally everything science wise.  

At least this is how i recall me being taught science, they were still all distinctly their own subject, like you wernt taught maths in science, you were taught the principles that requires maths to do and forumula, but not addition, subtraction etc.     So, in other words, applied maths in science, but not how to actually do maths.    They may remind you/tell you if you forget, but thats because they are a teacher in school, not because its part of the subject. 






(above pciture is a joke, but its a funny joke and illitrates my point, and yes people do joke about this and argue about purity in science)


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 6, 2021)

Steve said:


> Sure, but just to be clear, one may also say that judo has more in common with western boxing than aikido.


Agreed.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 6, 2021)

Steve said:


> But they are both cars.  Isn't this all relative?  I mean, an electric car is more like an ICE car than is like an electric bike?  At least, if you're looking at it relative to the wheelbase and number of folks it can carry, and other similar "car like" things.  But if you're looking at it relative to the drivetrain maybe the electric car is more like a an electric bike.
> 
> Or are you saying that nothing is really the same as anything else?  In which case, Wing Chun really isn't Wing Chun when taught by two different people.


I'm saying both.  Wing chun is Relative to who is teaching it.  The core principles and theory define the system.  Car Make binds. Car Models are variations of the same system.  Some teachers like truck, Some like cars.  But all teachers fall under the same Maker.  What type of variation you get depends on what the teacher feels as most important.


----------



## Steve (Jul 6, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm saying both.  Wing chun is Relative to who is teaching it.  The core principles and theory define the system.  Car Make binds. Car Models are variations of the same system.  Some teachers like truck, Some like cars.  But all teachers fall under the same Maker.  What type of variation you get depends on what the teacher feels as most important.


Got it, and I agree.  

I think if folks really internalized the profound impact of the individual instructor on the system, we'd cut through a lot of the self defense garbage that goes on around here.  The system plays a role, but the instructor plays a significant role, too.  And to try and draw the direct line, I think few systems are able to overcome an inexperienced instructor or an ineffective training model.  I can't think of any.   And yet, we see it all the time in self defense.


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## jayoliver00 (Jul 27, 2021)

Anarax said:


> He might be respected in he's own circle, but unfortunately *this* is what many people will know him for. He showed he's scrappy and gets emotional when confronted. However, I'm not seeing where he showed he's a skilled Martial Artists that can apply his training in a live situation.
> 
> That's not what people are criticizing him for. It's that he's spent many years training in a martial art and trains other in said martial art but shows *zero* ability to apply his training in a live situation.



Far be it from me to praise Wang Chung, but I have ran into WC cats who can bang and this WC is one of them cats.

I just rewatched the video. WC went hard on the first hook (after Waldo's head push/slight head butt), but then WC lighten it up with some medium powered shot. Look at how he punched the body a lot and not just the head (had he really wanted to sleep JKD Waldo). It was more like, a Pimp slapping a 'ho and telling her to get out of the crib; not necessarily trying to damage the merchandise.

And you can see some decent ground control; so homey trained some BJJ probably.  The striking was still controlled at a medium power level. He could've done a lot of damage with knees & elbows in those positions, but didn't.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Jul 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> When people see that video they will think,  "He can fight, but he can't fight with WC."
> 
> 
> This doesn't mean anything.  Just because a Boxer wants to learn Wing Chun doesn't mean that the Wing Chun teacher can beat the Boxer.  The Boxer is a title holder.  The Wing Chun Instructor is not.   My guess would be that he probably isn't known for being a fighter either.
> ...




After rewatching this video to respond to you, I would say that the WC wasn't really trying to hurt the kid. The 1st hook was hard, but most everything after that was just medium powered hits, aimed at the body. Why the body when he clearly had easy head shots for the KTFO; knees to the head even?  He was just roughing up Waldo & not necessarily trying to sleep him; justifiable force.

You can say that he couldn't use his WC effectively, but all I saw was a homey slapping a 'ho. He was just showing his dominance over some turd w/o risking jail time nor lawsuits. And he exhibited some ground control skills as everybody cross trains nowadays. He clearly has Boxing skills in a bag video I saw him post. 

Yeah he didn't really break out the full Wang Chung treatment on Waldo, but again, it wasn't defcon 5 for him, esp. with his whole crew in the yard....he was pissed, but maybe just defcon 2.  This is exhibiting control. Not the greatest of control, but decently enough. Just showing a 'ho the door; b/c 'ho's rarely leave when you just tell them too.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 27, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> I would say that the WC wasn't really trying to hurt the kid. The 1st hook was hard, but most everything after that was just medium powered hits, aimed at the body. Why the body when he clearly had easy head shots for the KTFO; knees to the head even? He was just roughing up Waldo & not necessarily trying to sleep him; justifiable force.


That's a possibility but I don't buy it.  A lot of people here have seen me spar using Jow Ga kung fu.  If I wanted to just rough someone up without hurting them then that's the speed I would have used to rough someone up.  To hear that someone didn't use WC because they didn't want to hurt someone is like me saying. I don't use Jow Ga because I didn't want to hurt someone  To me, statements like that is close to the mentality of " My kung fu is too dangerous and I didn't want to hurt him, I just want to rough them up."  People get roughed up in sparring so a "WC teacher" should have the skills to use WC to "rough up a guy like Waldo."  As a matter of fact, technically it should be easier to use Wing Chun at that point.

I won't give the WC teacher that excuse even if that's what he really thought in his mind.  If that comes out of his mouth, I would personally tell him, that he didn't use WC because he didn't know how to apply it in that situation.  Like I've always said "Style A vs Style A" in martial arts is not a good thing, because most people who train like that, are lost when it's no longer "Style A vs Style A".



jayoliver00 said:


> You can say that he couldn't use his WC effectively, but all I saw was a homey slapping a 'ho. He was just showing his dominance over some turd w/o risking jail time nor lawsuits.


I'm not buying that.  When People fight they use what they are most comfortable with and it's not always the martial art that they train.  They will claim that they are good in martial arts but when it's "Style A vs Style B" they abandon their martial arts.  Which is why the WC teacher tries to explain the Kung Fu that he claimed he did in the scuffle.

There are many ways to show dominance over some "turd" w/o risking jail time nor lawsuits.  The only reason that WC teacher didn't get into legal issues is because of the video.   Without the video it would be, one guy's story against another guy's story.



jayoliver00 said:


> Yeah he didn't really break out the full Wang Chung treatment on Waldo, but again, it wasn't defcon 5 for him, esp. with his whole crew in the yard....he was pissed, but maybe just defcon 2. This is exhibiting control.


His whole crew is there is perfect reason to use Wing Chun.  If he was good at applying it then he could have showed that skill set which would have enlightened not only his students but demonstrate Wing Chun mastery through application.  If it was me, then I would be lucky to have a "Waldo" that I could use Jow Ga against without having much concern that he gets hit in the face or in his gut.   I would throw a low kick just to see if "waldo" could back up that claim.  But life has it, that I don't have people coming up to me telling me to my face saying that what I teach doesn't work.  I may get it on the Internet but not in person.  That alone probably says more about me and how I conduct myself in class.  The most I've ever gotten were questions of "If someone does this..., what would you do."

I just truly think that if he had the ability to fight using WC, that he would have just easily applied those skill sets in a dominate way and in a manner that just rough  him up.

When BJJ pratitioners rough someone up they do so with the skills they train.  Kung Fu unfortunately cannot make that claim unless it's about story of some kung fu guy or teacher that lived 200 years or more ago.  Ip Man is probably the closest story of such a claim.


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## Cynik75 (Jul 28, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> .... When BJJ pratitioners rough someone up they do so with the skills they train.  Kung Fu unfortunately cannot make that claim unless it's about story of some kung fu guy or teacher that lived 200 years or more ago.  Ip Man is probably the closest story of such a claim.


What about beimo fights from 1950's and 60'? Chunners like to indicate them as evidence of WC effectiveness (even with some logical fallacy - beimo fight had rules and WC is "for da streetz" ).


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## Anarax (Jul 28, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> After rewatching this video to respond to you, I would say that the WC wasn't really trying to hurt the kid. The 1st hook was hard, but most everything after that was just medium powered hits, aimed at the body. Why the body when he clearly had easy head shots for the KTFO; knees to the head even?  He was just roughing up Waldo & not necessarily trying to sleep him; justifiable force.
> 
> You can say that he couldn't use his WC effectively, but all I saw was a homey slapping a 'ho. He was just showing his dominance over some turd w/o risking jail time nor lawsuits. And he exhibited some ground control skills as everybody cross trains nowadays. He clearly has Boxing skills in a bag video I saw him post.
> 
> Yeah he didn't really break out the full Wang Chung treatment on Waldo, but again, it wasn't defcon 5 for him, esp. with his whole crew in the yard....he was pissed, but maybe just defcon 2.  This is exhibiting control. Not the greatest of control, but decently enough. Just showing a 'ho the door; b/c 'ho's rarely leave when you just tell them too.


I'm not seeing the same thing you're seeing in the video. Rashun looked like any other untrained average Joe on the street. He flails his arms, upper body stiff/rigid and overall awkward body mechanics. 

Just because Rashun momentarily got on top of the other guy doesn't make it ground control. You can tell Rashun doesn't have a good standup nor ground game in the video.

You can speculate that Rashun is a high level practitioner and he's the most BA martial artist in the world. However, he displayed zero skill nor training in this video. 

Rashun was trying to hurt the guy, he just lacked the skill set and training to do so effectively. I wonder if Rashun would've behaved the same way if Waldo was 6 foot 5 and weighed a solid 250 🤔


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## jayoliver00 (Aug 6, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's a possibility but I don't buy it.  A lot of people here have seen me spar using Jow Ga kung fu.  If I wanted to just rough someone up without hurting them then that's the speed I would have used to rough someone up.  To hear that someone didn't use WC because they didn't want to hurt someone is like me saying. I don't use Jow Ga because I didn't want to hurt someone  To me, statements like that is close to the mentality of " My kung fu is too dangerous and I didn't want to hurt him, I just want to rough them up."  People get roughed up in sparring so a "WC teacher" should have the skills to use WC to "rough up a guy like Waldo."  As a matter of fact, technically it should be easier to use Wing Chun at that point.



What kind of Wing Chun techniques did you want to see while he was standing over, on top of Waldo who's on the his back?




JowGaWolf said:


> There are many ways to show dominance over some "turd" w/o risking jail time nor lawsuits.  The only reason that WC teacher didn't get into legal issues is because of the video.   Without the video it would be, one guy's story against another guy's story.



Well obviously, that's why he went there b/c he knew there was video evidence.





JowGaWolf said:


> His whole crew is there is perfect reason to use Wing Chun.  If he was good at applying it then he could have showed that skill set which would have enlightened not only his students but demonstrate Wing Chun mastery through application.  If it was me, then I would be lucky to have a "Waldo" that I could use Jow Ga against without having much concern that he gets hit in the face or in his gut.   I would throw a low kick just to see if "waldo" could back up that claim.  But life has it, that I don't have people coming up to me telling me to my face saying that what I teach doesn't work.  I may get it on the Internet but not in person.  That alone probably says more about me and how I conduct myself in class.  The most I've ever gotten were questions of "If someone does this..., what would you do."
> 
> I just truly think that if he had the ability to fight using WC, that he would have just easily applied those skill sets in a dominate way and in a manner that just rough  him up.



Well I already know that WC isn't very good, but he was just playing with him with the strikes.


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## jayoliver00 (Aug 6, 2021)

Anarax said:


> I'm not seeing the same thing you're seeing in the video. Rashun looked like any other untrained average Joe on the street. He flails his arms, upper body stiff/rigid and overall awkward body mechanics.



Because he's just roughing him up by swatting like punches. They weren't serious punches. Most of them were to the body, when his head was completely open.



Anarax said:


> Just because Rashun momentarily got on top of the other guy doesn't make it ground control. You can tell Rashun doesn't have a good standup nor ground game in the video.



What belt are you in BJJ?




Anarax said:


> You can speculate that Rashun is a high level practitioner and he's the most BA martial artist in the world. However, he displayed zero skill nor training in this video.
> 
> Rashun was trying to hurt the guy, he just lacked the skill set and training to do so effectively. I wonder if Rashun would've behaved the same way if Waldo was 6 foot 5 and weighed a solid 250 🤔



"Zero skill nor training in this video"?  

I've trained enough people with zero skill nor training to know that you're wrong. And I can also tell when someone's not really going full out. 

And what's the point of the last comment about the 250lb guy?


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## drop bear (Aug 6, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm saying both.  Wing chun is Relative to who is teaching it.  The core principles and theory define the system.  Car Make binds. Car Models are variations of the same system.  Some teachers like truck, Some like cars.  But all teachers fall under the same Maker.  What type of variation you get depends on what the teacher feels as most important.



Sort of. If you want to make the core principles define a system that is cool. 

Someone else might not.

Jujitsu leg locks for example changed some of the core principles. But nobody cares because you can snap off a guys ankle. 

As they say in the matrix. "The trick isn't bending the spoon. The trick is realising there is no spoon"


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 6, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> What kind of Wing Chun techniques did you want to see while he was standing over, on top of Waldo who's on the his back?


The fight didn't start in that position.  It also didn't end in that position.  To pick a specific point in the fight and to ask that question as if that's the only thing that happened is not an honest analysis of what went on.  I've seen enough people actually use Wing Chun to know that what he was doing lacked Wing Chun techniques.



drop bear said:


> Sort of. If you want to make the core principles define a system that is cool.


This is how it works with most things.  The core principles of a car is what makes a car.  The core principles of a bicycle is what makes it a bicycle and not a motorcycle, or moped., or scooter.

You cannot take the core principles of BJJ and say that you are doing Kung Fu.   I cannot do Jow Ga Kung Fu without the core principles of Jow Ga.  



drop bear said:


> Jujitsu leg locks for example changed some of the core principles. But nobody cares because you can snap off a guys ankle.


You cannot define core principles by one technique.  That would be like defining a what is a dog and what's not a dog by the shape of it's tail.   Lips and teeth do not make a human.  Nor do lips and teeth define the core principle of what makes a human a human.
This is the same with martial arts and fighting systems.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 6, 2021)

drop bear said:


> As they say in the matrix. "The trick isn't bending the spoon. The trick is realising there is no spoon"


Doing a back flip on a bike, a skateboard, or on the ground are not the same same nor do they have the same core principle used for accomplishing the backflip.  The trick is to understand which one you are doing so that you understand how that system does the back flip.


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## drop bear (Aug 6, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You cannot define core principles by one technique. That would be like defining a what is a dog and what's not a dog by the shape of it's tail. Lips and teeth do not make a human. Nor do lips and teeth define the core principle of what makes a human a human.
> This is the same with martial arts and fighting systems.



Leg locks in this case break the core principles of bjj






Or maybe they don't.

Because the trick isn't bending the spoon.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 6, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Leg locks in this case break the core principles of bjj
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Video sounds as if an assumption about what makes good BJJ.  From an outsider looking in.  I didn't have that assumption about Jujitsu.  I've seen too many leg locks to think that way. 















The assumptions that he made about BJJ are ones I have never made about BJJ and the risk of dealing with someone who does BJJ.  If I had to take a direction on this, it would be more in line that he limited his understanding of BJJ and it may have been been a sport limitation of BJJ.   We see Martial arts locks as submissions.  But in reality they aren't submissions or locks.  They are breaks and tears.  You lock someone's arm or leg, do the damage and then you return to your feet ASAP.  Then force your opponent to fight with a damaged limb.  Like that lady who had her ankle broken.

So I'm going to go with the fact that Leg locks do not break any core principles of BJJ.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 6, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Leg locks in this case break the core principles of bjj
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I have to say that the evolution of leg locks didn’t change or break the core principles of BJJ. What it did was add additional options to a simplified tactical rule of thumb that was based on those core principles.

BJJ has always been about finding advantageous positions  so that you can control and harm an opponent and they can’t control or harm you, then use that positional control to end a fight by striking, strangling, or isolating a limb and breaking it.

The old simplified tactical rule of thumb was that you achieved that goal by taking someone down, getting past their legs to control the upper body, then applying a finish from there. The newer understanding is that properly applied leg entanglements can be dominant  control positions just like side mount, full mount, or back mount. The principles haven’t changed, we’ve just learned more control positions.

BTW, this process has also developed  in parallel with the understanding that submissions in general can also be dominant control positions in their own right, even if you don’t manage to finish the submission.


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## jayoliver00 (Aug 6, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> The fight didn't start in that position.  It also didn't end in that position.  To pick a specific point in the fight and to ask that question as if that's the only thing that happened is not an honest analysis of what went on.  I've seen enough people actually use Wing Chun to know that what he was doing lacked Wing Chun techniques.



The fight started with him holding his head at one side and hooking him on the other. There's no hooks in WC?  The fight proceeded & ended with him just roughing the kid around, not really trying to hurt him.



JowGaWolf said:


> This is how it works with most things.  The core principles of a car is what makes a car.  The core principles of a bicycle is what makes it a bicycle and not a motorcycle, or moped., or scooter.
> 
> You cannot take the core principles of BJJ and say that you are doing Kung Fu.   I cannot do Jow Ga Kung Fu without the core principles of Jow Ga.
> You cannot define core principles by one technique.  That would be like defining a what is a dog and what's not a dog by the shape of it's tail.   Lips and teeth do not make a human.  Nor do lips and teeth define the core principle of what makes a human a human.
> This is the same with martial arts and fighting systems.




He Boxes also, and looks like some BJJ.


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## drop bear (Aug 6, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, I have to say that the evolution of leg locks didn’t change or break the core principles of BJJ. What it did was add additional options to a simplified tactical rule of thumb that was based on those core principles.
> 
> BJJ has always been about finding advantageous positions  so that you can control and harm an opponent and they can’t control or harm you, then use that positional control to end a fight by striking, strangling, or isolating a limb and breaking it.
> 
> ...



As big an evolution as karate adopting leg kicks or chun using a hook punch.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 6, 2021)

drop bear said:


> As big an evolution as karate adopting leg kicks or chun using a hook punch.


Wing Chun not having or using a punch always amazes me.  I sometimes find myself wanting to question that reality.


----------



## Anarax (Aug 22, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> Because he's just roughing him up by swatting like punches. They weren't serious punches. Most of them were to the body, when his head was completely open.


He alternated between the head and body several times, thus he didn't resort to bodyshots out of restraint but due to lack of advantageous positioning. Waldo starts to stand back up as he's grabbing Rashun limiting Rashun's ability to hit him in the head, thus Rashun wasn't choosing to not hit him in the head. Rashun simply lacked advantageous positing to consistently land headshots. When he was in said position he struck Waldo in the head.


jayoliver00 said:


> What belt are you in BJJ?


Guard passing and positioning are BJJ fundamentals that most schools will teach you if/when you go to a BJJ class. 


jayoliver00 said:


> I've trained enough people with zero skill nor training to know that you're wrong. And I can also tell when someone's not really going full out.


"Full out" is a relative term. A pro fighter's "going easy" is more than a recreational martials artist's "full out". That doesn't mean the recreationalist wasn't going "full out" just because they weren't able to do much to their opponent. The volatile emotional state of the individual doesn't guarantee a more optimal outcome for them. Rashun was very emotional and was trying to hurt Waldo, he was just ineffective in doing so. Rashun showed what his decades of training taught him, unfortunately not much at all.  


jayoliver00 said:


> And what's the point of the last comment about the 250lb guy?


Quite simply that Rashun felt comfortable escalating the situation with someone that didn't appear very threatening.


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## jayoliver00 (Aug 22, 2021)

Anarax said:


> He alternated between the head and body several times, thus he didn't resort to bodyshots out of restraint but due to lack of advantageous positioning. Waldo starts to stand back up as he's grabbing Rashun limiting Rashun's ability to hit him in the head, thus Rashun wasn't choosing to not hit him in the head. Rashun simply lacked advantageous positing to consistently land headshots. When he was in said position he struck Waldo in the head.



He clearly didn't hit him hard with the head shot, on purpose.



Anarax said:


> Guard passing and positioning are BJJ fundamentals that most schools will teach you if/when you go to a BJJ class.



No shame in being a White belt.




Anarax said:


> "Full out" is a relative term. A pro fighter's "going easy" is more than a recreational martials artist's "full out". That doesn't mean the recreationalist wasn't going "full out" just because they weren't able to do much to their opponent. The volatile emotional state of the individual doesn't guarantee a more optimal outcome for them. Rashun was very emotional and was trying to hurt Waldo, he was just ineffective in doing so. Rashun showed what his decades of training taught him, unfortunately not much at all.



Nah, he was toying with the kid.



Anarax said:


> Quite simply that Rashun felt comfortable escalating the situation with someone that didn't appear very threatening.



That's why he didn't go full power on the kid.


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