# Empi and Ananku!



## JasonASmith (Feb 8, 2007)

Well, in my Sensei's continuing efforts to push the few white belts that care to higher levels, we have begun the kata Empi in class...I love it!
We have also worked on Ananku, which is not a Shotokan kata, but is wildly practical in it's applications, in my opinion...
As I look back over these first few months of class, I'm quite astonished with what I've learned...3 Taikayokus, 5 Heians, Jion, Bassai Dai, Tekki Shodan, Kanku Dai, 2 bo kata, Tjimandjet...and now Empi and Ananku...whew!


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## twendkata71 (Feb 8, 2007)

That should be enough kata for a brown belt, Really, I personally would slow down and work on what I have already learned. Then again, I learn kata very quickly as well. Always have.


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## Grenadier (Feb 8, 2007)

At what level does your sensei teach Empi / Wanshu?  This kata does require a good strong set of fundamentals.


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## JasonASmith (Feb 8, 2007)

Grenadier said:


> At what level does your sensei teach Empi / Wanshu? This kata does require a good strong set of fundamentals.


That's Shodan level stuff, maybe(and it's a BIG maybe) Brown belt...


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## JasonASmith (Feb 8, 2007)

twendkata71 said:


> That should be enough kata for a brown belt, Really, I personally would slow down and work on what I have already learned. Then again, I learn kata very quickly as well. Always have.


I agree...
Here is my Sensei's take on teaching advanced kata to the beginners and less experienced members of the dojo:  Take the material in two different levels: the first is the basic kata(the Taikayokus and Heians) which are what we as beginners are responsible for. The second is the advanced kata(Bassai Dai, Kanku Dai, Empi, Jion, et. al.) which, other than Jion, we are not responsible for.  When we start, we work exclusively on the the basic kata and nothing else...After some time spent immersed in the basic katas, Sensei will teach one of the advanced kata that are out of our reach experientially to push us forward a little...We work on whatever kata it would happen to be for a while, and then return to the basic kata, with the hopes that what we have learned in the advanced kata will translate to a better understanding of what we're responsible for...It works! For example, our work on Jion has helped me with Heian Sandan(think the middle sections) There are many other examples...


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## Brandon Fisher (Feb 8, 2007)

You have gained alot in a very short time.  Practice, practice, practice and learn what you know in depth.


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## Cirdan (Feb 8, 2007)

All those Kata are anough for at least decade of study just to scratch the surface. Funakoshi spent almost ten years on Naifanchi alone. As someone said, less is more.


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## JasonASmith (Feb 8, 2007)

Cirdan said:


> All those Kata are anough for at least decade of study just to scratch the surface. Funakoshi spent almost ten years on Naifanchi alone. As someone said, less is more.


Indeed, I agree...
However the lessons that I have learned in the study of some of these advanced kata have absolutely helped me with the kata that concern me at the moment, which is what Sensei had in mind...


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## Haze (Mar 16, 2007)

WOW! You have worked on alot of stuff in a short time. Remember, knowing the pattern of a kata does not mean you know the kata. All the little applications and variations of those applications. 

We all do this, we call things basics, sounds like these are the easy parts, the easy kata or techniques. Try to see these as "fundamentals" rather than basics. I know, what's the difference? The way your mind see's things is the difference. 

Basics, easy beginner stuff. 

Fundamentals, neccessary stuff to build on.

my $0.02 :asian:


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## jtbdad (Mar 18, 2007)

I once spent 3 years on Fukugata Ni. (this was after earning shodan) I still love this Kata and work it into every workout of my own.  

You have covered a great deal of material I don't think I have ever met a Sensei who would cover that much material in such a short period of time.  Keep us informed Iam intrigued.


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## Brandon Fisher (Mar 18, 2007)

I agree Fukyugata Ni being a great kata.  Though its supposed to be basic it is but it isn't depends on how deep you look at it.

I also agree alot has been covered in a short time.


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## cstanley (Mar 19, 2007)

You are learning the kata way too fast. This is only going to hurt you  in the long run. Your instructor should know better.


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## Cirdan (Mar 19, 2007)

Haze said:


> We all do this, we call things basics, sounds like these are the easy parts, the easy kata or techniques. Try to see these as "fundamentals" rather than basics. I know, what's the difference? The way your mind see's things is the difference.
> 
> Basics, easy beginner stuff.
> 
> Fundamentals, neccessary stuff to build on.


 
Good point! For instance Pinan Nidan (Heian Shodan in Shotokan) should NOT be seen as "easy beginner stuff." It contains plenty of advanced material that can take you well past 1. Dan alone. My instructor told me his former master once held a black belt class on this Kata specifically, making every one of them feel like white belts again.


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## SideWinderGX (Mar 19, 2007)

nice list, although you should definitely focus on perfecting each of the katas (in a non insulting way, of course), starting with the first one you learned. i cant recognize some of those katas, probably because theyre not goju ryu lol...i know the 3 taikyukus, 5 pinans, jion, 3 bo katas, ananku...empi == supar empi? that might be spelled wrong, ima check tomorrow. i think thats a sandan bokan kata, im pretty sure im learning that soon.

again, quite the list...but make sure you keep up with it all, proportionally


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## JasonASmith (Mar 20, 2007)

SideWinderGX said:


> nice list, although you should definitely focus on perfecting each of the katas (in a non insulting way, of course), starting with the first one you learned. i cant recognize some of those katas, probably because theyre not goju ryu lol...i know the 3 taikyukus, 5 pinans, jion, 3 bo katas, ananku...empi == supar empi? that might be spelled wrong, ima check tomorrow. i think thats a sandan bokan kata, im pretty sure im learning that soon.
> 
> again, quite the list...but make sure you keep up with it all, proportionally


I've heard it pronounced Enpi(JKA), but it's original name was Wanshu, if my memory serves me correctly...
We'll see how things go with the keeping up with it all, not sure that I can with everything that's going on at the moment..


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## Grenadier (Mar 20, 2007)

SideWinderGX said:


> empi == supar empi? that might be spelled wrong, ima check tomorrow.


 
Empi = Enpi = Wanshu 

Of course, the names are dependent on the style.  

Suparinpei is probably the kata you're thinking about, and is also known as Pichurin.  Completely different kata than Empi / Enpi / Wanshu, and a rather lengthy one, too, if my memory serves me correctly.


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## SideWinderGX (Mar 20, 2007)

i know wansu. maybe the 'h' is just left out in my dojo or something.

and yeah, im pretty sure thats it...although i forgot to look up the name lol. ima try again tonight =D its extremely lengthy...its going to be a pain to learn it, but a great learn after im done.


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 27, 2007)

That is a ton of kata for a beginner, and still quite a few even at the intermediate stage. My first instructor is well known for stating it takes 3 years of consistant practice to master one kata - and he's right. Take your time, work hard on your kata and establish the meanings for each move, as well as multiple variations on them. It'll really make your understanding grow.


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## chinto (Jun 12, 2007)

JasonASmith said:


> Well, in my Sensei's continuing efforts to push the few white belts that care to higher levels, we have begun the kata Empi in class...I love it!
> We have also worked on Ananku, which is not a Shotokan kata, but is wildly practical in it's applications, in my opinion...
> As I look back over these first few months of class, I'm quite astonished with what I've learned...3 Taikayokus, 5 Heians, Jion, Bassai Dai, Tekki Shodan, Kanku Dai, 2 bo kata, Tjimandjet...and now Empi and Ananku...whew!


 

I dont know the kata empi, it is not tought in the system i study. but, Ananku is tought at 7th kyu in the system i study. kusanku sho and kusanku dai are 3rd kyu kata (brown belt) and the other kata I again do not recogonize the names of and are not in my system. but at brown belt level we know at least 4 bo kata, and usualy several other kata for one or two weapons kata and 16 empty hand kata.  but at brown belt we have 6 empty hand kata to learn including kusanku sho and dai..and usualy 4 or 5 weapons kata.  makes for a lot of learning, but then learning is why we are there.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 12, 2007)

Chinto,
Hope this helps you recognize the kata mentioned.

Taikayokus = similar to Fukyugata series in Shorin Ryu
5 Heians = Shotokan's version of Shorin ryu Pinan Kata
Bassai Dai = Typically Shorin Ryu's Passai Sho or Itosu no Passai
Tekki Shodan = Naihanchi Shodan
Empi = Wanshu in Shorin Ryu
Jion is taught in some Shorin Ryu systems but not all I believe only in Matsumura Seito and possibly Seibukan.


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## chinto (Jun 13, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> Chinto,
> Hope this helps you recognize the kata mentioned.
> 
> Taikayokus = similar to Fukyugata series in Shorin Ryu
> ...


 

I knew about bassai dai, was not sure about tekki, and had no clue about empi.  so yes it did help. thanks.


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## Grenadier (Jun 13, 2007)

In addition to the above, roughly speaking:

Chinto = Gankaku
Seishan = Hangetsu
Niseishi = Nijushiho
Suparinpei = Pichurin


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 13, 2007)

chinto said:


> I knew about bassai dai, was not sure about tekki, and had no clue about empi. so yes it did help. thanks.


Great glad it helped.


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## chinto (Jun 13, 2007)

Grenadier said:


> In addition to the above, roughly speaking:
> 
> Chinto = Gankaku
> Seishan = Hangetsu
> ...


 

Ok  so is Niseishi actualy a diferent spelling some how for Naihanchi kata?  if not i dont have a clue what kata niseishi is.


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## cstanley (Jun 14, 2007)

chinto said:


> Ok so is Niseishi actualy a diferent spelling some how for Naihanchi kata? if not i dont have a clue what kata niseishi is.


 

No, Niseishi is another name for Nijushiho.


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## chinto (Jun 18, 2007)

cstanley said:


> No, Niseishi is another name for Nijushiho.


 

OK, thanks!  I have to say that is one that is not in the system I study. So I have no clue what is in it.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 18, 2007)

I could be wrong but I believe Niseishi is mainly a naha-te kata.  I know Goju Ryu and I believe Ryuei Ryu both have it in the system.


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## cstanley (Jun 18, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> I could be wrong but I believe Niseishi is mainly a naha-te kata. I know Goju Ryu and I believe Ryuei Ryu both have it in the system.


 

Niseishi is not a Goju kata.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 18, 2007)

I stand corrected.  I looked it up and its actually in Ryukyu Kempo which means primarily Tomari-Te in origin from there I didn't look back further.  But Ryuei Ryu does practice it.


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## chinto (Aug 20, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> I stand corrected. I looked it up and its actually in Ryukyu Kempo which means primarily Tomari-Te in origin from there I didn't look back further. But Ryuei Ryu does practice it.


 
ok,, my system is mainly Tamari-Te  but we do not have that kata in it. 
Not that we dont have plenty of kata.. 23 empty hand kata are enough for any one :shotgun:


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu (Sep 9, 2007)

Here's a question I'd like to put out to everyone here.  In the style I study (Shogen Ryu) there are 18 traditional hand forms that are taught.  By the time you grade for your Shodan you are required to have learned 13 of those Kata and by 5th dan all 18.  I personally think that's too many Kata to ask anyone with that limited experience to learn.  Anyone agree?  Disagree?  For anyone interested here are the requirements.....
Shodan: Fukyugata Ichi, Ni, Pinan 1-5, Naihanchi 1-3, Ananku, Wankan, Rohai
Nidan: Wanshu, Passai
Sandan: Gojushiho
Yondan: Chinto
Godan: Kusanku


All thoughts and opinions greatly appreciated.


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## Jin Gang (Sep 9, 2007)

It depends how long you spend before grading to shodan.  In four or five years, those kata aren't too much.  It sounds like Shogen ryu is an offshoot of Matsubayashi Ryu, as they have the same kata (fukyugata ichi was invented by matsubayashi ryu's founder, and isn't taught anywhere else).  In my school, we had Wankan before shodan.  Ananku and Wanshu at shodan, and Rohai and Passai at nidan.

Tomari Te, Naha Te, Shuri Te are not "hard and fast" categorizations.  Teachers from all the areas shared kata with eachother, and had different versions of the same kata.  Basically, there is no difference between "shorin" and "shorei", shuri, naha, and tomari...just different methods and different kata taught by different teachers.  They don't fit neatly into categories.  We can note differences and similarities in the karate of all schools.  Some people say naihanchi was originally a naha kata.  It was taught by teachers both from tomari and shuri.  So which is it?

As for the original poster of this thread...I think that is too many kata to learn in just a few months.  How long exactly have you been practicing, that you have learned all those kata already?  But I guess each teacher has their own theories.  Maybe he is just trying to expose you to things, so that you can find what suits you and start practicing that exclusively?  
Learn just the moves of each kata, and then let you specialize in the fighting techniques of just one or two of the kata for the next few years?
I guess it depends on what your goals are.  Karate kata are relatively short and simple, if the goal is just to memorize the patterns and perform them then that's no trouble at all, take in as much as you can...but there is a depth in even the simplest kata which need to be explored through crossing hands, and two person drills that take time to internalize and make work for you.  I guess as long as you go back and do this with all the kata over the years, then learning the movements early on isn't doing any harm.  Some people may just be jealous that you get to learn so many katas in such a short time, when in their school they have to train for years before seeing most of those (jk)


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## Brandon Fisher (Sep 9, 2007)

Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu said:


> Here's a question I'd like to put out to everyone here. In the style I study (Shogen Ryu) there are 18 traditional hand forms that are taught. By the time you grade for your Shodan you are required to have learned 13 of those Kata and by 5th dan all 18. I personally think that's too many Kata to ask anyone with that limited experience to learn. Anyone agree? Disagree? For anyone interested here are the requirements.....
> Shodan: Fukyugata Ichi, Ni, Pinan 1-5, Naihanchi 1-3, Ananku, Wankan, Rohai
> Nidan: Wanshu, Passai
> Sandan: Gojushiho
> ...


No I don't think its to many at all I require 12 for shodan plus a couple of weapons kata.  Thats pretty typical for traditional schools.


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## chinto (Sep 10, 2007)

Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu said:


> Here's a question I'd like to put out to everyone here. In the style I study (Shogen Ryu) there are 18 traditional hand forms that are taught. By the time you grade for your Shodan you are required to have learned 13 of those Kata and by 5th dan all 18. I personally think that's too many Kata to ask anyone with that limited experience to learn. Anyone agree? Disagree? For anyone interested here are the requirements.....
> Shodan: Fukyugata Ichi, Ni, Pinan 1-5, Naihanchi 1-3, Ananku, Wankan, Rohai
> Nidan: Wanshu, Passai
> Sandan: Gojushiho
> ...


 
for shodan ho (probationary shodan)  rank in Shobayashi Shorin ryu you are required to know and have polished  23 kata (empty hand) and at least 3 or 4 minumum  kobudo/kobujitsu kata.. usualy about 5 or 6.


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## Brandon Fisher (Sep 10, 2007)

chinto said:


> for shodan ho (probationary shodan) rank in Shobayashi Shorin ryu you are required to know and have polished 23 kata (empty hand) and at least 3 or 4 minumum kobudo/kobujitsu kata.. usualy about 5 or 6.


Thank you for illustrating my point beautifully.


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu (Sep 10, 2007)

Personally I think it should be more geared towards the student, some people learn quicker and can pick things up faster than others.  I know some who can look at a for once and just like that not a problem.  I know others that can practice a form over and over and over, and still not quite seem to get it.  I know that some (not by any means all) schools grade based mostly on forms.  ​


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## Brandon Fisher (Sep 10, 2007)

Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu said:


> Personally I think it should be more geared towards the student, some people learn quicker and can pick things up faster than others. I know some who can look at a for once and just like that not a problem. I know others that can practice a form over and over and over, and still not quite seem to get it. I know that some (not by any means all) schools grade based mostly on forms.​


Very true that some learn faster than others and thats ok, but that does not mean things should be made easier.  I have been in martial arts pushing 24 years and I will tell you that when I started training it was different.  People nowadays want to take the easier route, well there is no easy route in karate unless you change it, then in my mind its not karate.  I have taught people who have ADHD, are blind, are deaf, or have some other problem that makes it difficult for them to learn or train.  Even my own wife has a severe balance problem caused by a birth defect and she is testing for Nidan next month.  I personally don't look at just the persons ability but their attitude towards their training, their work ethic, and what kind of person they are.  That all factors in to the final decision. But I grade on not only kata but also, Kihon, Tuite, Nage Waza, Atemi Waza, Kyusho, Kumite (various types) and academic knowledge of karate.


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## TimoS (Sep 10, 2007)

Jin Gang said:


> fukyugata ichi was invented by matsubayashi ryu's founder, and isn't taught anywhere else



Sorry, but you are mistaken on that. Yes, the kata was created by Shoshin Nagamine sensei, but it is taught in many other styles. I am currently doing Shorin ryu Seibukan and both Fukyugata are part of our curriculum. In fact, I think that most okinawan styles carry both these kata, with maybe slight variations.


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## Brandon Fisher (Sep 10, 2007)

Timo is correct the Fukyugata series is taught in most Shorin Ryu systems in similar or exact to Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu.  Fuykyugata Sandan is the one that is not taught in most systems only in a handful.


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## chinto (Sep 11, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> Thank you for illustrating my point beautifully.


 

you are perfectly welcome sir. ... especialy as it was a simple statement of fact.


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## chinto (Sep 11, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> Very true that some learn faster than others and thats ok, but that does not mean things should be made easier. I have been in martial arts pushing 24 years and I will tell you that when I started training it was different. People nowadays want to take the easier route, well there is no easy route in karate unless you change it, then in my mind its not karate. I have taught people who have ADHD, are blind, are deaf, or have some other problem that makes it difficult for them to learn or train. Even my own wife has a severe balance problem caused by a birth defect and she is testing for Nidan next month. I personally don't look at just the persons ability but their attitude towards their training, their work ethic, and what kind of person they are. That all factors in to the final decision. But I grade on not only kata but also, Kihon, Tuite, Nage Waza, Atemi Waza, Kyusho, Kumite (various types) and academic knowledge of karate.


 
as some one with ADHD and some learning disiblilitys and balance problems myself, I have to say that My sensei does not cut any slack about it. I Do NOT expect any either, you know the kata, and the bunkai and can do the techniques and have your head in the right place.. or you DO NOT TEST! It is that simple.  That is Karate, I dont expect any slack cut for me. Karate is about  what you know and can do. there is NO easy road, but only the path and  disiplin of the path to better preformance.   I have studied for over 5 years strait in the system I am in.. and about 6 with a brake I had to take.  And before that I had about 2 years in  the matsumura seito system. I do not expect any brakes for my problem.. just to work till I am asked to test for the next rank. That is Karate. Karate is hard, not easy. that is why I do it, and why I know that as an 'old school style ' and not "sporterized" but tought and trained as it was and is on Okinawa it works and will do what I reqier. the thing I most requier is that it allow me to protect myself and thoes who I am obligated to protect! in short  protect me and mine as one man put it. I may die, but I will not quit or back down when or if it is ever requierd.  I am not interested in trophys, or any thing else really but the joy of training and that ability...... Besides it does make you a better person, if for no other reason then the effort and disiplin reqiered to train in Karate.


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