# self defense...AGAINST COPS.



## Primal Kuen (Oct 17, 2007)

I thought I would start this thread after reading "how much would you take", another thread here. First of all this IS NOT TO BE DISRESPECTFUL to those officers who put their life on the line to protect and serve. In fact I have 2 close family members who are hwy patrol officers.  BUT IF THERE"S ONE THING I CAN"T STAND IT"S A ARROGANT, POWER HUNGRY COP who is a danger to society.    

 After Katrina, I worked for 2 years in New orleans. While I was there I saw some of the worst cops imaginable...for example cleaning out Wal Marts for big screen TV's...stealing cars... even shooting ppl who were just trying to walk across a bridge to safety. A person I knew was thrown to the ground and beat behind a "wall" of cops because he told them they should be ashamed at the way their force was being represented. 
   While I was there, I was setting at a red light and a cop stepped up to my window and pulled his gun on me, he pointed it right at my head and said " where's the weed ? ". He said he saw me rolling a joint...when I held up my tissue full of snot, and told him here's your joint...he told ME to watch my attitude, slowly pulled the gun away from my head, and walked away.    This man was playing with my life...even if I did have a joint, a gun to my head ???? 

 If this had been an "ordinary" citizen, I could have killed him and I would have been patted on the back by a police officer for doing so. If I would have killed this ignorant cop for edangering my life like that...I would have gotten the death penalty. But what is the difference ?

  "how much will you take" before you resort to self defense is a good question...but it's a question most ppl assume that they would never have to think about when it comes to officers.....many ppl are dead because of that assumption.

 An officer is quoted on these forums as saying "here's a hint... the last thing you want to say to an officer is " you can't do that to me ! " unless you can back it up...because when I say I can , then I can and will. "  In fact, thare are many times when officers "can't" do something...and yet do it anyway.
 IT IS OUR RIGHT to say you can't do that to me, if it is indeed true, and your actions are unwarrented. And many ppl have backed that right up, only to be serving time now for doing so.  It is a sad thing to be "afraid" of a police officer...especially when at the end of the day the citezen is the one putting the food on thier table at night.

 So the question is how do you defend yourself from a "bad cop" ? How do you enforce your own right to protect yourself, when the person paid to protect you is in fact the offender ? I have no idea....but the chances of you not doing time for it is very, very slim.  It's a sad thing.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 17, 2007)

I also do not put this up as any disrespect to those that serve and protect

Having been on the receiving end of police intended violence I will only say that I tried to talk to the officer until he started swinging his fists at me. At that point I only blocked his punches all the time talking as calmly as possible telling him if he would stop his punching we could get to the root of the situation and settle it without anyone going to the hospital.
He eventually gave up trying to hit me and backed off a step at which time I put my hands in a natural position and continued to talk as calmly as possible while he called for back up. When the back up arrived the officer repeated what had happened and the 2nd officer took a position off to one side of me a few feet away but did not reach for me and stood and listened to the conversation between officer number 1 and myself.

Being as calm as possible in any heated situation sometimes is the best defence and keeping your hands in plain sight is a damn good idea. Also never make a sudden move


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## Blotan Hunka (Oct 17, 2007)

If you need to preserve you life from an ILLEGAL use of force, do what you have to do. As long as you were indeed doing nothing illegal. And thats a big IF, because the cop may honestly believe you were breaking the law. If you ever do have to "defend yourself" be prepared to surrender peacefully afterward. If you are being told you are under arrest, and the cop isnt using force on you, do what you are told. My trouble with these internet stories is a. you dont know if they are true or not and b. you dont know what "type" of person is telling the story. How do we really know anything about anybody who posts here?

Being an ***, if you were innocent or not will get you nothing but trouble.


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## tellner (Oct 17, 2007)

Every cop will say "The guys in my department are the best in the world. Maybe once or twice we've had a couple crooked cops, but we always get rid of them. I've heard about your city, and you have a particularly troubled force. They have special problems and need better training and a shakeup in the top brass. But they're still the police and still there to protect you, so respect them." Well, I haven't found one yet who did anything different. It's strange how the police in _every_ city say the same things about themselves and everyone else 

Given that, the New Orleans Police Department and the other agencies around it are world famous for their corruption and brutality. It wasn't that long ago that the FBI would come into precinct offices in and around NOLA and arrest the entire shift  And there were scandals not too many years ago when police officers were acting as guards and drivers for bank robberies. In uniform. While they were on duty :barf:

Read Herbert Asbury's classic The French Quarter: An Informal History of the New Orleans Underworld. It will show you just how far back and deeply rooted the problems are.

That said, it's tough. A cop is always armed, at least minimally trained, has considerable experience in violence, has the reflexive support of every single law enforcement officer in the country, has access to equipment and sources of information that you and I don't and can get away with murder, literally, if he chooses to be unethical. Fortunately, most are law abiding not unlike most of the rest of us.

A cop who is a thug, a rapist, a thief or a lawkiller is a very dangerous person indeed. The police will believe him, not you. They will look for reasons to defend him. They will look for any excuse to put you away. He can kill you, and he will walk. If there are actual DNA samples in your orifices and his first shot caught you in the back you will spend the rest of your life in jail if you use deadly force against him. And since he is armed and more likely than you and I to shoot your risks in a self defense situation are much greater than they would be in a normal crime.

Video cameras are a wonderful thing. They won't convict a bad cop. But they will help you in court if you are in the right. That's why police have been calling for laws to make it illegal for the serfs to film cops but are demanding surveillance cameras to use on the rest of us. Just the other day a guy in Portland was tased and severely beaten because he refused to stop filming a bunch of cops who, as near as we can tell, had screwed up on a Biblical scale.


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## newGuy12 (Oct 17, 2007)

When ever I get pulled over, I put my hands on my steering wheel, and stay in the car (as far as I know, that is best practice).  And, then, like has been said, don't move too fast, take it easy.

I've been pulled over for traffic stuff before, and it has ended without incident, nothing bad happened.  It was some kind of citation for some registration that was expired or something like that.

Also, like has been said, being rude or rarely adds anything to any occasion.  

The problem is, in order to outfit a city with a police force, you must recruit people who are fairly aggressive.  You do not want people on the police force who shy away from trouble.  Rather, you want to have the police force full of people who like action, or who are at least not adverse to it.  They have to "get in there" into the swing when trouble goes down.

Now, of course, if they get out of line from time to time, that's a bad situation.  I think of it like this:  If you wish to recruit guys to be a defensive safety on a football team.  You want guys who have the personality to tackle dang straight through and to the ground.  That is the nature of the job.

At the same time, then, if they pull Grandma over, you do not want them to give her a beat down. When I think about it, its a wonder to me that we can ever get a police force to be BOTH effective AND not give the "good guys" a hard time.  Its a very tall order, you know.

Nice thread.


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## newGuy12 (Oct 17, 2007)

tellner said:


> Just the other day a guy in Portland was tased and severely beaten because he refused to stop filming a bunch of cops who, as near as we can tell, had screwed up on a Biblical scale.


I've heard many accounts like this.


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## buldog (Oct 17, 2007)

The way you look has a big part in how the officer approaches you.  If you are very large or if he isn't sure he can easily take you himself they tend(in my experience anyway) to take a more agressive attitude whether you are doing anything or not.  My advice is to shut up and follow orders then try to notice if they have a video camera in the car afterwards.  Get a lawyer to take care of the rest, but only if they get real excessive( a few jabs with a nightstick might hurt but a judge might not think so).  

Just my .02


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## MJS (Oct 17, 2007)

IMHO, I think the worst thing to do is turn into an aggressor.  Yelling, telling the cop he's a jerk, etc., is not going to help the situation.  Regardless of his attitude, I'd suggest being polite, as difficult as it may be.  I would suggest making an official complaint with a supervisor at the PD.  If things really start getting ugly, I'd hire a lawyer.

Mike


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## Andy Moynihan (Oct 17, 2007)

This is another reason why it's a good idea to get to know the good cops in your area, show up at somre D.A.R.E. functions, go get First Aid certified, get so you know them and they know you and you could be far more likely to get a listening ear.

It helps that, being out of teen/early 20s age(30 this April) and  having a flat top and military-grooming-standard mustache, and always addressing them as Sir/Ma'm I have enough of an "Establishment/un-civilian" look and feel that I'm SURE it has made things go better during those times I've spoken to them recently. I am very fortunate to never have had a true "bad cop" incident.


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## CoryKS (Oct 17, 2007)

What you want to do is, stick your finger right in his face and say, "Hey, you!  I pay your salary!"  Works every time.


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## terryl965 (Oct 17, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> What you want to do is, stick your finger right in his face and say, "Hey, you! I pay your salary!" Works every time.


 
Yea and while you rest in the hospital, you can convince yourself that getting to all those drugs are easy too.


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## jks9199 (Oct 17, 2007)

Since this was in response to my words, I'm going to address several issues.

First, many states do allow you to use force to resist unlawful arrest.  One problem... The laws of arrest, to include detention, are pretty complicated.  Your better bet is to comply, and wait to sort it out.  There are times when we detain people -- or even arrest them -- who are innocent.  Most cops will sort that out in the end; sometimes, it may end up being sorted out in court.  The hurdle to prove a particular arrest was unlawful is pretty big; the cop's only required to show that he had probable cause, based on facts and information known at the time, to believe you committed the criminal act.  This is nowhere near the standard of beyond a reasonable doubt that applies in court.  Even if you were in fact innocent, but he had probable cause -- the arrest was good.  And you would have been wrong in resisting...

Second...  Attitude goes a long way, in all kinds of situations.  You go into a restaurant, and yell at the waiter...  You just might find something "special" in your soup.  Call the trash collector an ******* for waking you up, and I bet your trash cans will recieve lots of "special" attention...  Same thing applies with cops.  Every agency hires human beings to be cops; I'm not aware of any real Robocops.  We have good days and bad days.  You wouldn't believe some of the bad days...  and that does sometimes effect how we deal with people.  And that's before I even mention some of the things like the ever-funny "They're here for..." joke, or, even better, "if you don't eat your veggies, the police will arrest you!"...  

Which segues into another point.  We do our level best to hire only the best, most moral people.  But the are people.  Some are bad; some fool us and get past the tests... and sometimes, you don't know until they're in the situation.  Nobody's found a reliable way to positively identify the guy who's gonna be badge-heavy short of actually putting him on the street.  There's no advance test to see how you'll handle temptation, until it's in front of you.  Over all, most agencies do a pretty damn good job of selecting a good balance of people to work the streets.

Finally, let me explain the statement that seems to have riled some folks up...

There's not a cop with more than a few hours on the street who hasn't heard some variant of "I'm so & so; you can't ticket/arrest/tell me what to do" or "You can't do that."  Guess what?  90+% of the time... We can.  And we will.  That's exactly what our job is.  To know what we have the authority to do, and then to do it.  And, typically, when that magical phrase appears... the chances of avoiding that situation drop to zero.  For example, one day not too long ago, I responded to a trespassing complaint.  When I told the person that they had to leave, or they would be arrested, their response was "YOU can't tell me what to do!"  (though it was said a wee bit more colorfully...)  I offered them an alternative; leave or go to jail.  "You can't arrest me!"  They went to jail.  I don't take every person I catch to jail; often, for certain types of offenses, I'm happy if they simply stop.  But -- when they don't want to get with the program...  Then I have to make them go with the program.  That might mean a ticket; that might mean a ride in a very uncomfortable seat to the gray bar hotel.


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## still learning (Oct 17, 2007)

Hello,  Similing helps many times.  Doing exactly what the police officer says helps too.

Be compliant as much as possible. Make sure you write his name and badge number for future referance.

Remember everytime a cop makes a stop....he doesn't know who he is dealing with...and must always be prepare for the worst!

Imagine doing this everyday...and seeing cop's been kill somewhere for making stops.

Always file a complaint...sooner or later...those complaints will add up?

NO jobs is safe from BAD people.....sooner or later....they will get themselves into trouble and pay the consequences.

All we can to do...is NOT become like them....Aloha


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## Blotan Hunka (Oct 17, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> What you want to do is, stick your finger right in his face and say, "Hey, you! I pay your salary!" Works every time.


 

Ive often wondered about that little ditty. Dont cops pay taxes too?


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## tellner (Oct 17, 2007)

Good advice in general, JKS. The problems come when bad cops rely on the support of their brother officers to get away with things they shouldn't. The other part, well, it gets really bad. There has been a couple cases recently where cops coerced sex or money. They didn't go to trial so far as I know, but their departments had to pay some money. That can't be anything but the tip of the iceberg.

When you're in a situation where a cop is doing crime against you what can you do? My impulse is to treat him like an exceptionally dangerous criminal.


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## jks9199 (Oct 17, 2007)

tellner said:


> Good advice in general, JKS. The problems come when bad cops rely on the support of their brother officers to get away with things they shouldn't. The other part, well, it gets really bad. There has been a couple cases recently where cops coerced sex or money. They didn't go to trial so far as I know, but their departments had to pay some money. That can't be anything but the tip of the iceberg.
> 
> When you're in a situation where a cop is doing crime against you what can you do? My impulse is to treat him like an exceptionally dangerous criminal.


There's no easy answer.  Generally, I would suggest to endure the situation until you can report it; obviously there are some situations that doesn't apply to (rape, beatings, etc.), but as a general rule, if you tolerate the situation long enough, you can file a report.  If the involved agency won't respond to your satisfaction, you can go over their heads in a manner of speaking to the state attorney general or the FBI.  

But -- I'm going to suggest that you be sensible, too.  There's a difference between a cop being rude, a cop using the code book to deal with a person who's pissed them off, and a cop abusing their authority, or worst, breaking the law.  Lots of people have an initial reaction that "That cop was out to get me" or "Officer X has it in for my kid."  Guess what?  We may see things you don't, or... I hate to break it to you, but I didn't hunt the guy I gave 4 speeding tickets to in 3 days.  I didn't care enough about him...  HE came to me repeatedly, rapidly.  Same thing with the guy, his wife, and his kid that I got for speeding, in the same stretch of road, over the course of a week or two.  I wasn't picking on that family; they basically came looking!  

And rudeness is rude; it's not illegal.

Now, sometimes, cops do stupid things.  And they get punished for them.  That punishment may not be public... but it happens.  Think about it.  You screw up at work somehow; you don't have your name published in the paper.  You take your lumps, and go on about your job.  It's the same thing for cops; I drive too fast without justification, and get complained on -- I may get suspended.  You may not see that happen... but it does.  

I'm not -- and no cop I know would -- suggesting that CRIMINAL ACTS, *ESPECIALLY UNDER COLOR OF AUTHORITY* should be tolerated or excused.  I have less than zero tolerance for the crooks who happened to obtain badges.  But I also know that there just aren't that many of them.

And... just one other thought.  How many times have you read about a "former cop" who committed some crime?  First observation... it's FORMER.  There's probably a reason.  Second observation...  Many times, if you check into it, the crook was a cop very briefly, very many years ago.  What other profession gets tracked/labeled that way?


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## CoryKS (Oct 17, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> What other profession gets tracked/labeled that way?


 
The military does.  We used to joke that if twenty years after our four-year stint one of us went ballistic and shot up a mall, the headlines would read, "Ex-Marine Rampage Leaves 4 Dead".  The media never misses an opportunity to throw that in there.


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## Carol (Oct 21, 2007)

*Moderator Note:

The posts discussing abuse of authority by Law Enforcement have been moved to a new thread in the study, which is a more appropriate venue for the subject matter.   Please carry on the discussion about abuse of authority there, so this thread here can be dedicated to the discussion of self defence against cops. 

Thank you,

- Carol Kaur -
- MT Moderator -*


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