# tkd has some of judo



## Manny (Feb 24, 2011)

Yes in tkd we have several judo techs, like  osotogary, de ashybaray sweeps, ipon soe nage and other trows and some kind of retention or pins like kesagatame, we have some aikido moves like the locks, levers and joint manipulation this makes me belive most of the martial arts have a comon rooth.

In TKD we specialize in kicks mostly but when we do ho shi sul (self defense techs) or one step sparring we use some techs borrowed from judo/aiikido and offcourse punchin and kickin.

As Chriss Parker says in TKD we are specialized (kicks) but we use some other techs from diferent sources too.

What do you think?

Manny


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## oaktree (Feb 24, 2011)

Hi Manny I think the techniques you listed are common in every art.
 A Judoka might say well that is Ippon Seoi nage and someone in another art may call it something else basically Ippon Seoi Nage means first shoulder throw. &#26412;(first)&#32972;&#36000;(like to carry on your shoulder)&#25237;(throw)
Ippon Seoi Nage





 
Pankration Shoulder throw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5sOr52t1us&feature=fvst

Yudo is the Korean way to say Judo I guess Koreans read it like that. It may be possible the techniques that are in TKD some of the Koreans may have added some Judo techniques to their syllabus it could be an interesting subject how much Yudo is in TKD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZZdepDgBvs&feature=fvst

Shuai Jiao





 
I see alot of Aikido movements in Hapkido since both do stem from Daito ryu but if Choi really studied with Takeda or a more senior student its not listed.
I personally think he studied maybe not with Takeda but maybe with another student but that is spectulation.


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## ATACX GYM (Feb 24, 2011)

oaktree said:


> Hi Manny I think the techniques you listed are common in every art.
> A Judoka might say well that is Ippon Seoi nage and someone in another art may call it something else basically Ippon Seoi Nage means first shoulder throw. &#26412;(first)&#32972;&#36000;(like to carry on your shoulder)&#25237;(throw)
> Ippon Seoi Nage
> 
> ...


 

You are exactly correct.I hold dans in tkd and tsd as well,and there is no doubt that these arts are definitely more "capable" than many NOT in the "know" may think.But all of these movements are as old as combat itself.In the Motherland--Africa--there are pictures of Black Egyptians executing all of these techniques and more before China and India existed.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 24, 2011)

I've had this conversation with others who think that TKD is only a kicking/striking art. I think they may well be taught less commonly in Kukki schools, but TKD does include a whole range non-striking techniques. Too Sul - Throwing techniques. Kwan Jael Sul - joint locks. And Hyel Do Sul - pressure points. The Hyel Do Sul techniques (as I understant it...) are further divided into Tong Hyel Do Sul (painful pressure points), Ma Hyel Do Sul (paralyzing pressure points) and Sa Hyel Do Sul (leathal pressure points).
The emphasis may be on kicking/striking, but TKD is a complete martial art. If you're not learning anything other than kicking/striking, you're only learning part of what TKD has to offer.


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## Manny (Feb 24, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> I've had this conversation with others who think that TKD is only a kicking/striking art. I think they may well be taught less commonly in Kukki schools, but TKD does include a whole range non-striking techniques. Too Sul - Throwing techniques. Kwan Jael Sul - joint locks. And Hyel Do Sul - pressure points. The Hyel Do Sul techniques (as I understant it...) are further divided into Tong Hyel Do Sul (painful pressure points), Ma Hyel Do Sul (paralyzing pressure points) and Sa Hyel Do Sul (leathal pressure points).
> The emphasis may be on kicking/striking, but TKD is a complete martial art. If you're not learning anything other than kicking/striking, you're only learning part of what TKD has to offer.


 
Yes TKD has a lot of technikes, I know some of them, however lets face it TKD has evolved into a full contact olimpic sport, all the efforts of KUKIWON and WTF are towards olimpic competition since some time back 1988. In dojangs the only effort is towards kickin, wonderfull flying spining high kicks tant most of them are worthless in a real self preservation confrontation.

I have 3 full year since my comeback to TKD and the ho shi sool techs are almost non existent in the dojang I train, we don't see rooling/falling techs, we don't see presure points, we don't see trowing techs. joint manipulation, etc,etc, and this is in almost all dojangs I know.

I have been doing my own homework to full fill those gaps, I did crosstrain in kenpo karate because it has a full rainbow of self defense techs using hands and low kicks, I bought some books and dvds about self defense, and conctatly check internet to keep learning.

It's funny the black belts in the dojang don't know how to fall or rol, so they no practice trows and sweeps, there was one tipe when doing some kinds of Syrum that I had to use a presure point to release me from a pin in the ground and my parther didi'nt know why I use a cheap trick on him, I had to laugh and told him in the streets all is valid.

That's why I want ot do crosstraining in judo to learn more.

Manny


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 25, 2011)

*There are no cheap tricks. There are survivors and victims. Nothing else*.

Let me share a story. I was once doing en exercise where we had to let our partner get us in some kind of hold, and we had to try and escape. It was not fighting or free sparring, just a simple exercise of one person trying to restrain the other, and the other trying to escape.

My partner, being cute, took his time to get both my arms in a lock, and then use his hands to choke me with my gi. This is a pretty hopeless situation and I had zero place left to maneuver my hands or my body. So I tried to bite his throat. He caught on to that and pulled his head back. and that gave me the opening to grab his ponytail with 2 hands so I could pull his head back hard, forcing him to arch over backwards, enabling me to roll him off me, get one hand free and grab his adams apple. That is where the exercise ended.

Complaining about cheap tricks is a sign that the other person is not training for the same reason you are. In my case, my training partner and I were on the same page, and we both considered my actions normal and well done.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 25, 2011)

Manny said:


> Yes in tkd we have several judo techs, like osotogary, de ashybaray sweeps, ipon soe nage and other trows and some kind of retention or pins like kesagatame, we have some aikido moves like the locks, levers and joint manipulation this makes me belive most of the martial arts have a comon rooth.
> 
> In TKD we specialize in kicks mostly but when we do ho shi sul (self defense techs) or one step sparring we use some techs borrowed from judo/aiikido and offcourse punchin and kickin.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Manny,

While TKD is a specialist system, focused to a great degree around kicking, that is not the same as saying that that is all it has. When it comes to having techniques "borrowed from other systems", I don't know that that's true either. I'd say that they are just another aspect of the TKD system, albeit one that is not the focus of the system itself, and makes up considerably less of it's repertoire. But I would be willing to bet that when you apply throws, especially ones such as Osoto Gari, you apply them in a very Tae Kwon Do way (using the concepts, principles, and power source of TKD in your application of them). Same with the other aspects mentioned.

As I've said, cross-training in Judo, with your very solid grounding in TKD, will help you understand what grappling is about in far greater detail, and help you perfect your understanding of the mechanics of things like throws. So enjoy!


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## lklawson (Feb 25, 2011)

Not surprising that some TKD schools teach basic hip tosses and foot sweeps.  These are basic bread-n-butter grappling/throwing/tripping stuff and show up in disparate martial arts from around the globe including pre-Marquis of Queensberry boxing.  I wrote a whole book on the subject.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## dancingalone (Feb 25, 2011)

Many of the TKD pioneers had significant experience in judo/yudo.  Also, certain throws were known to be taught in Shotokan karate, perhaps the primary influence on the original TKD.  Gichin Funakoshi described 9 different throws in his book Karate-Do Kyohan, including a neck throw and a shoulder throw.


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## Manny (Feb 25, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Manny,
> 
> While TKD is a specialist system, focused to a great degree around kicking, that is not the same as saying that that is all it has. When it comes to having techniques "borrowed from other systems", I don't know that that's true either. I'd say that they are just another aspect of the TKD system, albeit one that is not the focus of the system itself, and makes up considerably less of it's repertoire. But I would be willing to bet that when you apply throws, especially ones such as Osoto Gari, you apply them in a very Tae Kwon Do way (using the concepts, principles, and power source of TKD in your application of them). Same with the other aspects mentioned.
> 
> As I've said, cross-training in Judo, with your very solid grounding in TKD, will help you understand what grappling is about in far greater detail, and help you perfect your understanding of the mechanics of things like throws. So enjoy!



Last night I went to a judo dojo and saw part of the class, the judoka  did their techs grabin the gi first and performin something like a walk and then the trow, impresive some of them I must said, what they were doing was a kata.

The way I do the trow or sweep is a little diferent, a) do a block/parry or evasion and a counteratack then b)  grab and trow or sweep and deliver a finish tech while the partner is liying on the floor helpless.

So yes Chris we do the things a little diferent.

Manny


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## lklawson (Feb 25, 2011)

Manny said:


> Last night I went to a judo dojo and saw part of the class, the judoka  did their techs grabin the gi first and performin something like a walk and then the trow, impresive some of them I must said, what they were doing was a kata.


Sounds like you're describing Uchi Komi.

But, that aside, there ARE kata in Judo.  Just not exactly like what most people think when someone says "kata."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Chris Parker (Feb 26, 2011)

Some kata in Judo:

[yt]-wDaj1gtQNY[/yt] Nage no Kata (Throwing Forms)

[yt]XTlxH0jcT04[/yt] Koshiki no Kata (Old Forms) - something rather different, taken from Kito Ryu.

[yt]BvxJYM_LsHw[/yt] Kime no Kata (Self Defence Forms)


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## leadleg (Feb 27, 2011)

Manny said:


> Yes TKD has a lot of technikes, I know some of them, however *lets face it TKD has evolved into a full contact olimpic sport, all the efforts of KUKIWON and WTF are towards olimpic competition since some time back 1988.* In dojangs the only effort is towards kickin, wonderfull flying spining high kicks tant most of them are worthless in a real self preservation confrontation.
> 
> I have 3 full year since my comeback to TKD and the ho shi sool techs are almost non existent in the dojang I train, we don't see rooling/falling techs, we don't see presure points, we don't see trowing techs. joint manipulation, etc,etc, and this is in almost all dojangs I know.
> 
> ...


 I do not agree that the KKW is set up for olympic style competition only,you only need to look at the KKW textbook to see that it is more encompassing of martial techniques.
 I do believe that the WTF is all about competition as it should be.
 The ho shin sul you are refering to is more likely the culmination of TKD and HKD rather than Judo, although certainaly some instructors have a Judo or Yudo background.
 As usual the type of techniques you learn in the various arts are as much or more about your instructor than the specific art itself. Either in their extensive experience or lack of.


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## seasoned (Feb 27, 2011)

*"The History of Karate", Morio Higaonna*
Page 66
_*"*In 1927 the founder of Judo, Jigoro Kano Sensei, came to Okinawa at the invitation of the Okinawan Judo Yudansha Kai (black belt club). During Kano Sensei's visit, the Okinawan Butokukai held a meeting to promote good interrelations. Various demonstrations, including one by Chojun Sensei, took place at the meeting._
_Kano Sensei was impressed by Miyagi's demonstration. When they spoke later Kano Sensei asked, " Are there ne waza (ground techniques) in karate?" Miyagi explained that there are, along with nage waza (throwing techniques), shime waza (choking techniques), and gyuku waza (joint locking techniques). He then demonstrated some examples, explaining the continual importance of harmonizing and focusing the breath._
_Kano was surprised to find that Karate was much more than just punching and kicking techniques, but that it encompassed the depth of a complete martial art. He had planned to visit Taiwan next, but after his discussions with Miyagi, went instead to Shanghai to further his own research.*"*_


I believe that all Martial arts, including TKD have the above within them. The sport aspect has always been a killer of this complete art concept.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 28, 2011)

seasoned said:


> I believe that all Martial arts, including TKD have the above within them. The sport aspect has always been a killer of this complete art concept.



Personally I believe an important factor is that people break away and start doing their own thing before they learned the entire system. So a karateka who became independent at 2nd dan or so would have only learned the striking and kicking aspect with only a vague notion of the grappling aspects.


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## seasoned (Feb 28, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> Personally I believe an important factor is that people break away and start doing their own thing before they learned the entire system. So a karateka who became independent at 2nd dan or so would have only learned the striking and kicking aspect with only a vague notion of the grappling aspects.


Great point, and I also feel that the ones that walk away have a knowledge that they don't even know they have. Kata can be taught right but with a punch, kick, block mentality, that only needs a spark to ignite, that which is within.


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## lklawson (Mar 1, 2011)

Incomplete and/or deliberately obscured knowledge is a huge source of frustration and confusion.

It is the reason why some practitioners teach the "X Block" is a two-handed block while others believe (myself included) that it is a two-handed cross-collar choke which has been dreadfully misunderstood.

It is the reason why there is continuing heated debate over the "real" interpretation of the classic two motion "blocks" (choong dan mahkee, et all) with some saying the first "chambering in motion" is in fact the actual block (a sort of "swat block") and the second motion is a riposte while others say that the chambering motion prepares for a full strength power block.

Frankly, these sort of confusions are part of the reason why many have rejected japanese/korean "PK" (punch/kick) styles in favor of boxing, muy thai, etc.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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