# Officer Fires At Teen Armed With Realistic BB Gun



## MJS (Dec 15, 2010)

http://www.courant.com/community/hamden/hc-hamden-bbgun-shots-1215-20101214,0,7730868.story



> HAMDEN 
> A 14-year-old boy who has armed robbery charges pending is facing new criminal charges after raising realistic BB gun at a police officer.
> The officer fired his weapon at the teen during the incident Dec. 11, but did not strike him, police said.
> Police began pursuing the teen at 2335 Dixwell Ave. where someone had reported three individuals behaving suspiciously near a motorized scooter.
> ...


 
14yrs old and this kid is already starting off with armed robbery charges!!  What a piece of trash, and the kids parents must be some real winners as well.  Anyways...IMO, I'd have done the same thing the cop did.  I mean, there're some weapons out there that look so real, its hard to tell whats real and what isnt.  

This kid is lucky, as this situation could've turned out alot worse than it did.  If this punk kid keeps up with his life of crime, next time, he may not be so lucky.  

Have any of the LEOs out there encountered anything similar?


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## seasoned (Dec 15, 2010)

I can't imagine what this kid was thinking. From all the tv shows and news paper articles pertaining to police interaction with the public. When the cops are pointing their weapon at you and they say, let me see your hands, they need to come up empty and open. He is lucky the cop was a bad shot.........


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## Archangel M (Dec 15, 2010)

Bad Shot? Try getting in a foot chase like this officer who probably fired his shots at a moving target while running himself. 

Even the "pros" you see on Youtube or on TV are either stationary or moving in a slow/controlled manner while firing.


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## Disco (Dec 15, 2010)

Yep, bad shot!!....... Number one, you DON"T RUN AND GUN"........Number two, when faced with a perp who turns and points a weapon at you, you damn better hit what your shooting at or you could be dead. Both the officer and the kid were very lucky that neither wound up dead.


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## Archangel M (Dec 15, 2010)

While I agree that running and gunning is a recipe for un-accounted rounds, if you are close enough to a guy in a chase who draws on you....well, I won't fault the officer for firing. Hits would have made him a "good shot" though eh?


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## seasoned (Dec 15, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> While I agree that running and gunning is a recipe for un-accounted rounds, if you are close enough to a guy in a chase who draws on you....well, I won't fault the officer for firing. *Hits would have made him a "good shot" though eh?[/*quote]
> 
> *No, hits would have let everone know where the rounds went.*


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## MA-Caver (Dec 15, 2010)

To me the officer is justified in shooting... he has NO CLUE if it's a real weapon or just a bb gun that at worse would put out his eye. As I see it a police officer cannot waste the precious seconds (or even milliseconds) it would take to see if a gun is real or no. All he knew was it was an *armed* robbery and the suspect fled the scene of the crime... this makes them armed and dangerous. Point an object that looks like a gun at an officer and expect to get shot at with extreme prejudice. Cops jobs are dangerous enough as it is without worrying if a gun is real or not.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 15, 2010)

Disco said:


> Yep, bad shot!!....... Number one, you DON"T RUN AND GUN"........Number two, when faced with a perp who turns and points a weapon at you, you damn better hit what your shooting at or you could be dead. Both the officer and the kid were very lucky that neither wound up dead.


 
You don't run and gun.......at your local square gun range.......in the really real world, though, it don't quite work like that.......targets move, you move, and you don't have all the time in the world.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 15, 2010)

Anyone giving us a critique of whether the officer should have missed or hit should first give us a resume and break down of the actual real world shootings they have been involved in that gives them an expert opinion on the matter.

Those who have really seen the elephant can critique the issue, but those who haven't should probably just watch.

In the interest of full disclosure, i've never been fortunate not to have put rounds in to another human being, but I have pointed guns at people numerous times in chaotic situations in the performance of duty, i've deployed less lethal weapons in chaotic situations, some that hit, some that missed.  I've fought with people.........and one commonality to all these situations were that they were chaotic and mobile........people moved, there was running and yelling, and if there had been shooting in any of them it would have been running and gunning, and likely, some missing, despite the fact that i'm an excellent shot on the square range.


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## MA-Caver (Dec 16, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Anyone giving us a critique of whether the officer should have missed or hit should first give us a resume and break down of the actual real world shootings they have been involved in that gives them an expert opinion on the matter.
> 
> Those who have really seen the elephant can critique the issue, but those who haven't should probably just watch.
> 
> In the interest of full disclosure, i've never been fortunate not to have put rounds in to another human being, but I have pointed guns at people numerous times in chaotic situations in the performance of duty, i've deployed less lethal weapons in chaotic situations, some that hit, some that missed.  I've fought with people.........and one commonality to all these situations were that they were chaotic and mobile........people moved, there was running and yelling, and if there had been shooting in any of them it would have been running and gunning, and likely, some missing, despite the fact that i'm an excellent shot on the square range.


Thanks for that. 
After all my own experience on the range (standing and shooting) and discussions with those who carry firearms as a part of their job requirements (soldiers and LEO's) I've realized that the ole' Hollywood run and shoot should be given credit of at least 5% realism... the fact that they're holding the weapon, have it pointed in the right (general) direction of their intended (pretended) target and they're pulling the trigger... other than that... :idunno: I doubt they'd be able to hit the side of a barn at point blank... but that's why they ask audiences to "suspend reality for a little while".


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 16, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Anyone giving us a critique of whether the officer should have missed or hit should first give us a resume and break down of the actual real world shootings they have been involved in that gives them an expert opinion on the matter.
> 
> Those who have really seen the elephant can critique the issue, but those who haven't should probably just watch.
> 
> In the interest of full disclosure, i've never been fortunate not to have put rounds in to another human being, but I have pointed guns at people numerous times in chaotic situations in the performance of duty, i've deployed less lethal weapons in chaotic situations, some that hit, some that missed. I've fought with people.........and one commonality to all these situations were that they were chaotic and mobile........people moved, there was running and yelling, and if there had been shooting in any of them it would have been running and gunning, and likely, some missing, despite the fact that i'm an excellent shot on the square range.


 
I should have said 'I've been fortunate enough NOT to have to put rounds in another human being'......


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 16, 2010)

MA-Caver said:


> Thanks for that.
> After all my own experience on the range (standing and shooting) and discussions with those who carry firearms as a part of their job requirements (soldiers and LEO's) I've realized that the ole' Hollywood run and shoot should be given credit of at least 5% realism... the fact that they're holding the weapon, have it pointed in the right (general) direction of their intended (pretended) target and they're pulling the trigger... other than that... :idunno: I doubt they'd be able to hit the side of a barn at point blank... but that's why they ask audiences to "suspend reality for a little while".


 Good points.....

It's both easy and extraordinarily difficult to hit another person in a gunfight, for a wide variety of reasons even beyond simply marksmanship........the fact is that examples exist of well trained shooters missing with numerous shots, as well as examples where gunman made extraordinary hits under pressure.


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## MJS (Dec 16, 2010)

Even in the real world, as its been said, things probably are not as perfect as if you were standing still, all of the ducks lined up in your favor.  OTOH, I doubt everyone standing still, firing at a non-moving target, is always hitting center mass.

Quite a few years ago, I had the opportunity to use a firearms training simulator, that was brought to the PD I dispatch for.  I wasn't moving, but the scene that was playing out in front of me, was.  There were a number of shots that didn't hit the intended target, for a few reasons, 1) being the fact that there was obvious movement, so trying to aim and hit something thats moving, unless you really train for that, is going to be hard, and 2) I dont go to the range.

This is why I often say that if people are going to carry a gun for SD, it'd be wise to try to find a way to train in some low light, stressfull situation, moving targets, etc.  Imagine not doing that, someone breaks into your home, and in all the confusion, you start shooting and shots go thru the walls, possibly hitting a family member, your neighbor if you live in a apt or condo.

I wasn't there, but I'd imagine or hope that the officer got his gun out, once he saw this kid holding his waistband.  If so, then yes, its very possible he'd have been in a firing while moving situation.

Another point to consider...I'm sure its not exactly easy to fire accurately after running.  Tired from running, now you have to compensate for breathing heavy and aim straight.  Are your hands shaking?  And of course, I always have to chuckle when I hear people say, "Why couldn't the officer just shoot the person in the arm or leg?  Why did they have to shoot them in the chest?"


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## Archangel M (Dec 16, 2010)

Now mix in "how many rounds did you fire officer?" and "Why did you fire 13 times officer?"

I also like listening to IPSC and 3-gun shooters go on about how better they are than LEO's (which they ARE in terms of gun handling and practice btw)...but unless they have some real world gunfights under their belts that is all academic. I'd wager that even your gun pros would be shocked at their hit ratios when someone is running around and shooting real death at them.


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## crushing (Dec 16, 2010)

MJS said:


> *14yrs old and this kid is already starting off with armed robbery charges!! What a piece of trash, and the kids parents must be some real winners as well.* Anyways...IMO, I'd have done the same thing the cop did. I mean, there're some weapons out there that look so real, its hard to tell whats real and what isnt.
> 
> This kid is lucky, as this situation could've turned out alot worse than it did. If this punk kid keeps up with his life of crime, next time, he may not be so lucky.
> 
> Have any of the LEOs out there encountered anything similar?


 
I don't know if this child is a piece of trash and his parents are losers, but it is possible the child is depressed and wants to die and the parents are doing what they can to get him the help he needs.  There isn't enough information in the article to know.


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## seasoned (Dec 16, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> Bad Shot? Try getting in a foot chase like this officer who probably fired his shots at a moving target while running himself.
> 
> Even the "pros" you see on Youtube or on TV are either stationary or moving in a slow/controlled manner while firing.


 
You are most correct, having been through all the mandated firearms prescribed courses in NYS for Peace Officer, I have not been in, or probably never will be in, your above quote. My duties take me into the most ideal situations. Working for (4) town courts, it would end up mostly hands on. Although, the possibility is always there to draw a firearm, accuracy is of utmost importance for me because of the amount of people there, on any given court night. My comments are drawn from my particular situation, and in no way would I want to give the impression that I could or would understand the mind set of the officers involved in the OP. With that said, I can only hope that if ever put into that situation, I would act accordingly, to the training I have had.


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## seasoned (Dec 16, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Anyone giving us a critique of whether the officer should have missed or hit should first give us a resume and break down of the actual real world shootings they have been involved in that gives them an expert opinion on the matter.
> 
> Those who have really seen the elephant can critique the issue, but those who haven't should probably just watch.
> 
> In the interest of full disclosure, i've never been fortunate not to have put rounds in to another human being, but I have pointed guns at people numerous times in chaotic situations in the performance of duty, i've deployed less lethal weapons in chaotic situations, some that hit, some that missed. I've fought with people.........and one commonality to all these situations were that they were chaotic and mobile........people moved, there was running and yelling, and if there had been shooting in any of them it would have been running and gunning, and likely, some missing, despite the fact that i'm an excellent shot on the square range.


 
I for one have never seen the "elephant" but can only hope and pray that if ever but into that situation I will act according to training. Of course, training is one thing and real life is another. With that said, you still need to carry a certain mind set, depend on training, and hope any split second decisions are the right ones. :asian:


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## jks9199 (Dec 16, 2010)

MJS said:


> http://www.courant.com/community/hamden/hc-hamden-bbgun-shots-1215-20101214,0,7730868.story
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes.  Some years back, I'm stopping at McDonalds for a moment when a guy approaches me, and tells me that some kids are showing a gun around.  Just then, the call comes out for kids with a gun there...

Pull the kid out, and ask him what he's got... and begins to pull a gun from his sweatshirt pocket.  Grab him, tell him not to move -- and I pull the Airsoft-type gun out myself.  Until it was all the way out, and I was handling it, it looked almost just like the Glock I had on my hip.  Slightly different scenario -- and the kid would have been dead.

There's a time and a place for toy guns.  Committing robberies is damn sure not the time or place.  Kid in the OP is damn lucky to still be using oxygen.


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## jks9199 (Dec 16, 2010)

On the issue of accuracy...

There's a whole lot going on in a very short time here.  Not only is the officer dealing with the effects of the adrenal cocktail on his body, elevating his heart rate, altering his perceptions -- but he's also been running and chasing someone, further influencing his heart rate and motor control.  In the real world, we tend to find that people shoot maybe 50% of their "normal" accuracy... unless they've been the recipients of very advanced and very difficult to provide training.


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## CoryKS (Dec 16, 2010)

Totally irresponsible.  Why didn't he just shoot the gun out of the kid's hand?


*ducks*


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## MJS (Dec 16, 2010)

crushing said:


> I don't know if this child is a piece of trash and his parents are losers, but it is possible the child is depressed and wants to die and the parents are doing what they can to get him the help he needs. There isn't enough information in the article to know.


 
Anythings possible. But on face value, this kid isn't a stranger to crime, and as the article shows, he has 2 armed robberies under his belt.  Apparently, the help, if he's in fact getting it, isn't working.  Of course, as I always say, help is a 2-way street.  The person has to have the desire to be helped, otherwise, its a waste of time.


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## Disco (Dec 16, 2010)

You don't run and gun.......at your local square gun range.......in the  really real world, though, it don't quite work like that.......targets  move, you move, and you don't have all the time in the world. 

You don't run and gun on the street either. You pursue the perp, but you don't discharge your weapon without a clear shot evaluation. You stop, take aim or if relatively close (3 to 5 feet) you point and shoot. You don't attempt to discharge your weapon while in the throws of a foot chase as your body is moving and your breathing is labored. Granted, you don't have all the time in the world, but you do have enough time to do it right, not only for your own safety but the safety of the general public. Would hate to see the results of the shooting review board, if this officer did hit someone else in the process of trying to hit the assailant. :shotgun:

As an aside, yes I've seen the elephant, but didn't smell any peanuts........


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 16, 2010)

Disco said:


> You don't run and gun.......at your local square gun range.......in the really real world, though, it don't quite work like that.......targets move, you move, and you don't have all the time in the world.
> 
> You don't run and gun on the street either. You pursue the perp, but you don't discharge your weapon without a clear shot evaluation. You stop, take aim or if relatively close (3 to 5 feet) you point and shoot. You don't attempt to discharge your weapon while in the throws of a foot chase as your body is moving and your breathing is labored. Granted, you don't have all the time in the world, but you do have enough time to do it right, not only for your own safety but the safety of the general public. Would hate to see the results of the shooting review board, if this officer did hit someone else in the process of trying to hit the assailant. :shotgun:
> 
> As an aside, yes I've seen the elephant, but didn't smell any peanuts........


 
How much time do you think is available in a gunfight? In your expert opinion.......I mean how many fractions of a second does one have to come to a complete stop, take up an isoceles or weaver position, both hands on the gun, feet squared, line up sights, and fire at a threat that is presenting a firearm in your direction?

How quick did you react in your last shooting?  Theory is all well and good, but many good theories come up short in practice.  I see you're a retired LE, and i've had 15 years on the job......i've never shot anyone, but i've been around when folks have.  I've rarely seen nice, tight groups on corpses, and i've even more rarely seen static, squared up stances and perfect shooting platforms.......they do occur, but those things are situational.

When chasing someone on foot, who suddenly turns and presents, there is less than second to react........now, I can assume that I would have done better than that officer, but that would ONLY be an assumption........perhaps you're basing it on more than just theory and assumption, and perhaps not......only you know.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 16, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> Now mix in "how many rounds did you fire officer?" and "Why did you fire 13 times officer?"
> 
> I also like listening to IPSC and 3-gun shooters go on about how better they are than LEO's (which they ARE in terms of gun handling and practice btw)...but unless they have some real world gunfights under their belts that is all academic. I'd wager that even your gun pros would be shocked at their hit ratios when someone is running around and shooting real death at them.


 
Bullseye's don't shoot back, as they say.


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## Disco (Dec 16, 2010)

How much time do you think is available in a gunfight? In your expert  opinion.......I mean how many fractions of a second does one have to  come to a complete stop, take up an isoceles or weaver position, both  hands on the gun, feet squared, line up sights, and fire at a threat  that is presenting a firearm in your direction?

Perhaps it's a difference in training, but I for one DON"T stop cold in my tracks and stand like a statue when somebody turns on me with a weapon (gun). The first instinct and the way we were trained, both PD and Military was to move off line/seek cover, then return fire if possible. Now the real focal point, as far as LEO's go, with this story is that the officer knew there was the potential that a weapon was in play. Now unless this kid started running backwards as he drew the gun from his waistband, the officer had enough time to set himself, after all he did warn the kid to drop the weapon, so we must assume that both parties were at a stop when all this went down. It would be beyond dumb to keep advancing on someone you knew had a weapon and was reaching for it and was in the process of turning to face you. There was/is more than enough time to react to him stopping/reaching and turning, but again, the distance factor is unknown. This adds to the evaluation that it was not good shooting. If he was within the 5 foot range, you just point and shoot, even from just clearing the holster, many departments practice this and grade on it. But if he had gun in hand already and was within that distance, it takes but less than a second to point and pull off 2 rounds. You make up half that distance when you extend your shooting arm. Now if he was further back, 8 to 12 feet, there was ample time to get off line/reduce your target area (turn sideways - crouch - duck behind a car, into a doorway, garbage can, light/telephone pole or anything else available) to reduce target area. Regardless of our personal discussion on the subject, I think we both can agree that both parties were LUCKY that, one the kid didn't have a real gun and fired at the officer and two, the kid was doubly lucky that the officer missed.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 17, 2010)

Disco said:


> How much time do you think is available in a gunfight? In your expert opinion.......I mean how many fractions of a second does one have to come to a complete stop, take up an isoceles or weaver position, both hands on the gun, feet squared, line up sights, and fire at a threat that is presenting a firearm in your direction?
> 
> Perhaps it's a difference in training, but I for one DON"T stop cold in my tracks and stand like a statue when somebody turns on me with a weapon (gun). The first instinct and the way we were trained, both PD and Military was to move off line/seek cover, then return fire if possible. Now the real focal point, as far as LEO's go, with this story is that the officer knew there was the potential that a weapon was in play. Now unless this kid started running backwards as he drew the gun from his waistband, the officer had enough time to set himself, after all he did warn the kid to drop the weapon, so we must assume that both parties were at a stop when all this went down. It would be beyond dumb to keep advancing on someone you knew had a weapon and was reaching for it and was in the process of turning to face you. There was/is more than enough time to react to him stopping/reaching and turning, but again, the distance factor is unknown. This adds to the evaluation that it was not good shooting. If he was within the 5 foot range, you just point and shoot, even from just clearing the holster, many departments practice this and grade on it. But if he had gun in hand already and was within that distance, it takes but less than a second to point and pull off 2 rounds. You make up half that distance when you extend your shooting arm. Now if he was further back, 8 to 12 feet, there was ample time to get off line/reduce your target area (turn sideways - crouch - duck behind a car, into a doorway, garbage can, light/telephone pole or anything else available) to reduce target area. Regardless of our personal discussion on the subject, I think we both can agree that both parties were LUCKY that, one the kid didn't have a real gun and fired at the officer and two, the kid was doubly lucky that the officer missed.


 
There's quite a few assumptions in that analysis that I don't personally find supported in the story......perhaps you're right and perhaps you aren't.  For my part, however, i'm not going to base the argument that an officer screwed up on what was written in a few lines of news article........I lack that ability to second guess a shot fired in a chaotic situation.  

The mileage of others, of course, may vary.....but at the end of the day, neither you nor I were there.......and unless we can take a trip to interview the officers, review the after actions, and walk through the scenario, it's all going to be WAG supposition..........the officer could have a really screwed up, but I don't have enough information to make that judgement....when such is the case my default position is to give a brother the benefit of the doubt until I have further information otherwise.

As to the last part, you and I are exactly in agreement.


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> Totally irresponsible. Why didn't he just shoot the gun out of the kid's hand?
> 
> 
> *ducks*


 

I was thinking that! Or he could have taken that well aimed shot, while running, at the lad's leg to bring him down which has the effect of disarming him at the same time so he cowers, clutching his leg and gives up.

We had a lot of criticism a while back when armed police were called out to someone who was brandishing a replica weapon around. It was inactive and the police were supposed to be able to tell this from a distance according to many. Yeah right, constable just walk up to that man with a gun in his hand and see if it's real will you. Don't think so somehow.
So easy to criticise.


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## CoryKS (Dec 17, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I was thinking that! Or he could have taken that well aimed shot, while running, at the lad's leg to bring him down which has the effect of disarming him at the same time so he cowers, clutching his leg and gives up.
> 
> We had a lot of criticism a while back when armed police were called out to someone who was brandishing a replica weapon around. It was inactive and the police were supposed to be able to tell this from a distance according to many. Yeah right, constable just walk up to that man with a gun in his hand and see if it's real will you. Don't think so somehow.
> So easy to criticise.


 
I wish I could find the article (and this was a few years before the internet I believe), but there was a case in DC I think where a teenager with a real gun was killed by police.  People were all upset, demanding that they enact a policy of shooting for the leg or to disarm.  Seriously, people watch way too many cop shows.


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> I wish I could find the article (and this was a few years before the internet I believe), but there was a case in DC I think where a teenager with a real gun was killed by police. People were all upset, demanding that they enact a policy of shooting for the leg or to disarm. *Seriously, people watch way too many cop shows*.


 

It goes with the perception too from watching these shows that it's easy for cops to kill people, that it doesn't affect the police officer in anyway. After all the cops on the shows just carry on as normal. I'm sure that if there really were a way to successfully shoot a gun out of someone's hand or just to wound them in the leg without danger to anyone else it would have been done. Taking a life, even of a murderer, rapist etc, isn't easy. A lot of responsiblity is put on officers in situations where there's a shooting so it's unfair to second guess officers without evidence they weren't doing their best.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Dec 20, 2010)

just point and shoot at close distance, huh.  It's that simple?

How'd that work out for this guy?  Watch the last few seconds.





 
or this guy:


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## MJS (Dec 23, 2010)

Another one:

http://www.policeone.com/officer-sh...2-Man-points-replica-gun-at-cops-gets-killed/




> FORT WAYNE, Ind.  A man brandishing a replica gun made to look like a real pistol was shot to death by a Fort Wayne officer Monday afternoon after he pointed the gun at officers in the duplex where he lived, police said.
> The shooting occurred about 12:40 p.m. at 2020 S. Harrison St.
> Police were called to the duplex after the man confronted two men who were doing work on the building, according to Fort Wayne Police Chief Rusty York. The man was carrying what appeared to be a handgun, which caused the workmen to leave and call police.
> The pistol was actually a plastic airsoft-type gun designed to look like a Walther P99 - a semi-automatic handgun made by a German company - with the Walther name etched on its barrel and handle. These guns typically shoot plastic pellets and are considered non- lethal.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 24, 2010)

MJS said:


> Another one:
> 
> http://www.policeone.com/officer-sh...2-Man-points-replica-gun-at-cops-gets-killed/


 
Man wants to die that bad, who are we to argue?


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