# Officer discretion and "professional courtesy"



## Archangel M (Jun 18, 2009)

An issue that always seems to stir up some debate..in LE circles and out...is the topic of "professional courtesy". Do you as a cop write other cops for common traffic violations? Some like to extend the argument into DWI's, accidents and criminal offenses, but the REAL topic boils down to speeding, improper turns, lights out etc....

People not in LE would be interested to know that the topic of writing other police officers tickets is as controversial within LE as it is outside of it. I have read many LE boards with opinions as varied as "I will NEVER write another cop" to "I get offended if the driver even TELLS me hes a cop, or shows me his badge or ID".

My personal approach is that I will give another cop a pass on offenses that I normally give non-LE passes on. If I just let grandma go for speeding than the cop is going to get a pass as well. If he's drunk and involved in an accident then he gets arrested like anybody else. The same extends to doctors, nurses, firemen, EMT's etc. I know that I may get guff from some of the posters here, but writing tickets is strictly up to me 99% of the time and thats what I do. Anyway. Im 100% sure that if I pulled any one of you over for being a lead foot and recognized you from MT that you wouldnt object if I let YOU go without a ticket.

Personally I WANT to know if you are a cop when I stop you. It enters into my decision making just like many other factors. If you are a construction worker who is late for work...have no other traffic tickets on your record and are cool with me I may just let you go. If you are a cop that may be backing me up in a chase through your town Id like to know that too. 

That being said..I dont like having badges flipped out of windows before I even exit my car and dont act like I CANT write you or that you are ENTITLED to a pass. I may still not write you, but I may be calling your Sgt.

Without mentioning Jurisdictions. Within LE there are some States and some Depts. that are well known to almost take joy in writing other cops...its been my experience that most of them wouldnt write a cop in their dept. or the depts they work with for having a brake light out, but will say "I dont give a damn who you are!" to an out of state cop passing through their State with a similar offense. I just dont understand that. Traffic offense stops are more like fishing to me. Im more interested in finding the "big fish" than I am in writing paper. I throw most fish back in the water and go back to fishing....unless the person "asks for it" through attitude, severity of offense or prior driving record.

In the end it comes down to it being each individual cops decision how he handles these issues.

Opinions?


----------



## Sukerkin (Jun 18, 2009)

Interesting, *Angel*. I can see entirely your point of view and might well think the same in your shoes.

The only thing I would say isn't really about 'turning a blind eye' but rather the potential consequences of people getting 'used' to not being reprimanded for such a criminally minor offense as speeding. If a policeman comes to think that the law really does not apply to him and habitually speeds, then there could be unforseen outcomes that devolve from that.


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Jun 18, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> An issue that always seems to stir up some debate..in LE circles and out...is the topic of "professional courtesy". Do you as a cop write other cops for common traffic violations? Some like to extend the argument into DWI's, accidents and criminal offenses, but the REAL topic boils down to speeding, improper turns, lights out etc....
> 
> People not in LE would be interested to know that the topic of writing other police officers tickets is as controversial within LE as it is outside of it. I have read many LE boards with opinions as varied as "I will NEVER write another cop" to "I get offended if the driver even TELLS me hes a cop, or shows me his badge or ID".
> 
> ...



People can talk about it all they want.......but if they are being honest they do the same in each and every one of their own professions......give minor courtesies to others who are in the same profession.  

Doctors do it, Lawyers do it, Nurses do it, Politicians do it, Bankers do it, Judges do it.  In fact, the professional courtesy extended by officers to each other (and firemen and EMS) is very minor compared what some other professions extend each other.


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Jun 18, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> Interesting, *Angel*. I can see entirely your point of view and might well think the same in your shoes.
> 
> The only thing I would say isn't really about 'turning a blind eye' but rather the potential consequences of people getting 'used' to not being reprimanded for such a criminally minor offense as speeding. If a policeman comes to think that the law really does not apply to him and habitually speeds, then there could be unforseen outcomes that devolve from that.



Ultimately, though, any officer who fails to develop the maturity to moderate his own behavior in those kind of endeavors ends up being his own end in this career.

I've always extended professional courtesy to other officers when it comes to minor traffic violations.......in turn, however, I don't myself drive around expecting the same.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 18, 2009)

Professional courtesy is always going to be controversial.  Just no way around it.


----------



## MJS (Jun 18, 2009)

I'm not a LEO, but I can toss in my .02 from what I've seen first hand, as well as incidents that I've read about.  Like it was stated in the OP, I see nothing wrong with a professional courtesy.  I would most likely do the same thing as the OP suggested, however, there is a point where you must draw the line.  Stopping someone who is intoxicated and not arresting them, is, IMO, a direct contradiction to someone who'd arrest the 23yo female coming home from the bar, driving drunk.  If you're going to arrest her for DUI, then you damn well better arrest the off duty as well.

Of course, this has been done many times, as there is proof of it in the papers.  Officers are arrested for harassment, threatening, stalking, etc.  

Of course attitude of the violator plays a big role as well.  Every time I've ever been pulled over, either by town or state officers, I"ve been courteous, and have done anything I could to put their mind at ease. ie: at night, turning on the interior light, keeping my hands in the wheel, telling them where my wallet is before reaching for it, so they dont get nervous with any movement I make.  

If people come off high and mighty...well, IMO, I think that uncalled for.  Knowing someone, being a firefighter, judge, town official, LEO, whatever, does not make you above the law.  Extend that professional courtesy to the officer, and there is a pretty good chance it'll be extended back.


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 18, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> Interesting, *Angel*. I can see entirely your point of view and might well think the same in your shoes.
> 
> The only thing I would say isn't really about 'turning a blind eye' but rather the potential consequences of people getting 'used' to not being reprimanded for such a criminally minor offense as speeding. If a policeman comes to think that the law really does not apply to him and habitually speeds, then there could be unforseen outcomes that devolve from that.



I agree..the odd "out of town" officer who speeds through I may never see again. The guy the next town over I just may...if I catch him again (or maybe "three is the charm") THATS an entirely different matter.

Like I said DWI's like to get tossed into the mix here...I HAVE let that 23 y.o. call for a ride vs. arrest at times....I MAY do the same for an LEO depending on the entirety of the circumstances (no accident, not called in by another driver, wasnt driving erratically. etc.). Or I may not arrest but decide call his supervisor. I have had the Lt. here or there say "arrest him" or drive out and pick up his officer himself. There is no hard and fast rules when it comes to who I decide to stop and who I decide to arrest when I am the person initiating the contact. If there is a victim (accidents, criminal activity) then things can be "out of my hands" regarding discretion. 

Im in agreement with Sgt. Mac here. In the grand scheme of things the "courtesy" that cops show each other is small potatoes compared to what I have seen in other professions. The thing that I find interesting is the variation of attitudes between different LE agencies. There are some cops I have heard say "I dont want you to tell me you are a cop...just take the ticket like anybody else." While where I am most cops would say (after giving the cop a ticket) "Dammit! Why didn't you tell me you were on the job!!". When I travel out of state I often think "If I get stopped what do I do?" do I say nothing? Do I hand over my ID with my license? Do I try to bring up my job in conversation? Either I clam up and get a ticket only to have the officer get upset because he wrote a cop (has happened). Or will he get "porky" and tell me he doesnt give a damn who I am?

Story Time: This can even extend to family of cops. My parents were going through a toll-booth when a State Trooper noticed a brake light out on my fathers truck. He got pulled over and issued a ticket. In my state, if you repair an equipment violation within 24hrs and have an officer sign off on the ticket, the ticket gets mailed in and dropped. So my mother says "thats OK..we will get it fixed and my son can sign off on the ticket"....well the Trooper just about "deflated" according to my mother, apologizing and saying they should have said something. The guy even called me at work to apologize....thats just the way it is here.


----------



## jks9199 (Jun 18, 2009)

Dangerous issue... 'cause it frequently leads to fights and disruption.

First -- "professional courtesy" starts with doing my best NOT to give another officer a reason to stop me when I'm driving.  And, if I get stopped, I start with an apology and identifying myself.  I apologize because I was wrong; I identify myself because I tend to be armed, and I want the other officer to know that -- and why.  I once stopped a deputy from a nearby agency; his first words were "I've got a gun..."  Yeah... sphincter factor went WAY up until I got the explanation.  If he had said "I'm a deputy; I'm armed" -- things would have been a lot smoother.

Second -- Professional courtesy is common in all sorts of businesses.  Whether it's barbers in a shop trading haircuts, or managers of restaurants trading meals... or how lawyers or cops treat each other during professional contacts.  I've given more breaks to private citizens than I have to cops (probably because most of the cops are following the first point above...); if I can give them a break, I can damn well give a break to a guy I know is going to stop and help if I'm in trouble on the side of the road.

But it's not all inclusive, nor is it an automatic out.  I may not have a choice in a situation like a serious crash where the officer is clearly at fault, for example, and I definitely don't have a choice about most criminal offenses.  DUI is a gray area; in this forum, I'll simply say that I've never encountered it with a cop (once with a firefighter), but the same reasoning about giving breaks applies, and I have a plan.

There are some professions I give a break to beyond LE; nurses, ER docs, other first responders, dispatchers...  You may see a trend...

Police family members are a more complex question.  I have a personal policy, that I think is fair and serves a practical purpose.

Oh... and those agencies that have a rep for writing other cops?  It's often just one or two jerks on the department.  Or it's a misunderstanding of events.  There are some infamous pictures of VSP supposedly stopping a caravan of cops on its way to assist in Louisiana after Hurricane Katrina... except that's not what happened in the pictures.  The caravan had stopped for a mechanical issue, and VSP stopped to assist.  It's often kind of like the trooper that stopped an ambulance that I believe was discussed here recently...  Both parties weren't exactly & squarely in the right.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jun 18, 2009)

I've seen officers who didn't write off-duty officers they pulled over, from their own or other agencies.  I've seen DUI off-duty cops (and firemen, and EMT's) given rides home rather than be busted.

I've also seen officers who wrote paper on other officers who soon found they had difficulties at work.  And officers from one jurisdiction found themselves in a ticket war with officers from another jurisdiction, both had officers in danger of losing their licenses in a few months, and had to have a parlay with the Chiefs from both agencies to settle the matter.

I can see both sides.  I have seen courtesies extended that just seemed like something reasonable to do - when an officer has discretion anyway, such as a basic moving violation or equipment, etc.  I've also seen a fire captain who had ten DUI's and still had his job and his license and nobody was doing him any favors by driving him home instead of arresting him.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 18, 2009)

People complain about speed cameras in this country but they are an equal opportunity contraption! it catches everyone speeding and tickets go out automatically! An on duty police vehicle or medical vehicle speeding has to inform they control they are on their way to an official incident (getting back for end of shift doesn't count) so that it can be negated. The speed guns and the speed cameras in police cars are also linked to computers which will send automatic speeding tickets out so no one gets away with it. (If stopped for speeding here ask to see the video for proof!)
The problem is probably more for an owner of a car who has lent it to a friend or family member and gets a speeding ticket he didn't know about.!


----------



## arnisador (Jun 18, 2009)

Professional courtesy happens and I don't see a great need to try to stamp it out. It's a form of bonding and group identification. But DWIs...not many people do that just _once_. I'd like to see those be arrests so it's recorded in the hopes that after the 8th time someone will lose their license. Speeding? Well, that contributes to accidents, but it's universal. Driving drunk? Eh...that's a bigger deal to me.


----------



## Obi Wan Shinobi (Jun 18, 2009)

In the state where I live I am able to "flag" my tags on my personal vehicles as Law Enforcement. Which is a safeguard to LEO from people trying to obtain their home address via Tag Info. So with that said I've only been pulled over in my personal vehicle once and the officer never got out of his car he just simply pulled out and left. I figured that he ran my tags and saw the flag. Or maybe he received a call.
But if the shoe was on the other foot I would almost certainly give the same courtesy but I'd at least see who the person was. Also it would depend on the speed as well. I mean if your doing like 75-80 in a 65 I would give courtesy. But if it was like 100 mph he/she better have a good reason. Not to mention I would notify their agency of the incident. 
If they are DUI then I don't care if they are LEO or not they are going to be arrested. That is too much of a liability to allow someone to get away with outrageous behavior like that. 
But I sometimes will ask a complaining motorist whom I've pulled over and am writing a ticket to. When was the last time you've received a ticket? Most of the time it'll be..."Awhile back about a few years ago." So I'll reply if you've been speeding everyday for the last few years and haven't receive a ticket up til now....then you really don't have much to complain about.


----------



## arnisador (Jun 18, 2009)

I've been pulled over for speeding twice. Both times I was guilty (and didn't deny that fact) and both times the LEO let me off with a warning. So, I've certainly been the beneficiary of officer discretion.


----------



## jks9199 (Jun 18, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I've also seen a fire captain who had ten DUI's and still had his job and his license and nobody was doing him any favors by driving him home instead of arresting him.


 
That's part of why I described DUI as a gray area. If someone has a drinking problem, I don't want to be in the position of enabling them -- and I don't want the responsibility of letting someone drive who shouldn't. As I said -- I have a plan. I have a different plan if I know someone has a drinking problem.  Neither plan involves letting an intoxicated (or even questionable) person drive.


----------

