# Choosing a sword



## SahBumNimRush

Okay, I'd like to start off by saying, I know next to NOTHING about swords or swordmanship.  Although I have always wanted to learn.  I have been searching for a proper blade (not a practice one).  

My question is A. is http://www.zanshinironworks.com/ a good source?  

and B. are there prices typical of the level of craftmanship?


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## Blindside

What are you going to do with it?  Put it on a wall?  Cutting practice?


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## MBuzzy

I would strongly suggest that particularly if you don't have any sword training that you first look at some saegums or kagums (Korean sword terms meaning practice sword, unsharpened).  In my sword style (Haidong Gumdo, a traditional Korean style), students are not allowed to have their own jingum or sharpened sword until black belt (Cho Dan).  They get a practice sword around green belt and at that point may start practicing with it (cutting seminars, etc).  

Having been involved in sword for about 3 years (a great deal less than many here), I would STRONGLY advise against going directly to a live blade.  I still practice with a mokgum (wooden sword) most of the time.  It is way too easy to hurt yourself and with a real jingum....you can cut something off with no problem.

If it is for display, you really don't need to spend $2000 on a real sword....

I would look at www.jingum.com they sell both Korean and Japanese style swords.


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## Sukerkin

Aye, good advice indeed there.  

It cannot be repeated often enough that, lovely as they are, swords are first and foremost designed to be dangerous.  It is their reason to exist and what is not often understood is that the skill required to handle and use them, without losing any of your own or other peoples body parts, is considerable.

All of us who are practitioners of the Japanese Sword (or related) arts will have personal tales of near-misses whilst learning and I am pretty sure that all of us will have cut ourselves at some point too.

So if you are not planning to seek out an instructor and begin training seriously then the true advice that any swordsman will give you is "Don't buy a live blade".

It's a boring thing to say, I know but better bored with ten fingers than excited with nine :lol:.


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## SahBumNimRush

Very good advice!  I guess, I should've made my intentions clear.  I would LOVE to learn how to properly use the sword, but I would not use a live blade to start with.  I guess it's just that I've always wanted a "real" one from an aesthetic point of craftsmanship, art and beauty.  

Because I wish to learn, and I would hope to someday have the skill to use it, I was curious what people thought of zanshin ironworks as far as quality and price.

But since we are on the subject, other than the wooden versions, where would one acquire a "practice" blade?  Albeit a mute point probably, as I live in the sticks and no one around here teaches such an art.


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## MBuzzy

As to the site that you posted, I have no experience with them, so I can't vouch for quality.  But the prices are indicative of most "entry level" swords.  For a basic "cutting blade," you're looking at between $300 and $2,000.  Depending on the quality, customization that you want, and what you want to cut.  I got my Samgakdo (for cutting straw (tatami)) for around $300.  It is from a Chinese forge and considered a "beater" sword.  Just good enough to cut and be safe, but nothing pretty or special.  The sword that I WANT is a Yukgakdo (for bamboo cutting (what you would consider a true live combat blade)) and it will cost closer to $2000.  When you get above that, you're talking about some serious steel.  I've heard of and seen sword upwards of $10,000.  Up there, you're talking about swords that can cut concrete without a problem.

As to where to get a good practice blade - the one that I have experience with and can strongly suggest is the site that I posted.  On that site, you're looking for the steel kagums under the Korean section.  I don't know a whole lot abotu Japanese swords, but Sukerkin could probably translate the Japanese on the Japanese site of that site.  (Under Korean swords, go to Steel Kagums)  They will also customize those.

The swords you will find there are made EXACTLY as a live blade would be.  With the same materials and all.  Weights are the same, the only part that is lacking is the final heat treatment and sharpening.  So if you buy one of those, it is as close as you can get without slicing off a finger.    Plus, the forge is of GREAT quality.

Sukerkin, if I'm not mistaken, if he wants a Japanese sword, he should look at Iaitos (for a non sharpened sword), correct?


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## SahBumNimRush

Thanks MBuzzy, I guess I could/should do more research before posting.. . But I figure better to ask those on here that know vastly more than me about these things.  It's always been something I've been interested in, but know next to nothing about. 

I appreciate the suggestions!  I am also very ignorant on the differences between japanese and korean swords.  I was under the impression that the Japanese samurai sword (katana?) was the holy grail of swords.. . If the korean swords are of equal power, I would much rather look into the Korean swords since I practice a Korean Martial Art.  Again, I mean no disrespect, my questions come from ignorance.. .


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## Ken Morgan

There is not really much difference, if any at all, between a Japanese sword and a Korean sword.

I practiced iaido for 6 years before I bought a shinken, (real sword), before that I used an iaito, and before that just a bokken. They all have there purposes and uses. 

I know of practitioners of the Sword arts who only have ever used an iaito 20 years on. I took a stone to my shinken a few years back and dulled it down to a sharp knife from a razor. This is a hobby, why would I jeopardize my fingers for a hobby? 

What you are looking for, (if I may?), is an iaito, its looks and feels like a sword, but is made from an aluminum alloy and has no edge on it. 

My sensei has been making wooden weapons and selling everything else for 20 years. Many people here know him and have bought items from him. Obviously its where Ive bought all my stuff, but by all means shop around and see whats out there. 

He has a section for iaito and shinken, take a look see. http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/

Where are you in the states?

Good luck with your search.


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## Sukerkin

MBuzzy said:


> Sukerkin, if I'm not mistaken, if he wants a Japanese sword, he should look at Iaitos (for a non sharpened sword), correct?



Quite so.  A quality Iaito from a decent Japanese maker will probably set you back $1000 or more (only guessing here as I don't know what the exhange rates are like at present).  Those are the ones that are balanced and configured so as to precisely match a shinken of the same size and weight.  You can get much cheaper ones but largely you get what you pay for in a sword.

I always recommend Tozando when this type of question comes up.  I have used one of their top end blades for something like five years now and the _ito_ (wrapping on the hilt) hasn't budged a hair (unlike the £250 blade I had from Paul Chen).  A thing to consider with Japanese made Iaito is that they will be a duralim alloy rather than steel (it's a legal issue with Japanese sword making) - of course, that means that you don't have to deal with rust issues :lol:.  Of course, you could always buy the real thing ... and send it to me ... :angel: (a genuine antique blade costs ... welll ... pretty much what you'd expect ).


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## Brian R. VanCise

As Sukerkin suggests Tozando is very reputable though there are of course other dealer's.  Be very, very careful as the amount of junk out there is staggering and as they say a fool is soon parted from his money. You would be surprised at how many $1,000 to $2,000 junk blades are out there.  Instead seek instruction as your instructor will probably steer you in the right direction and guide you in your purchase based on his or her experience. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Still when beginning purchase an iaito and then work from there.


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## SahBumNimRush

Ken Morgan said:


> Where are you in the states?


 
Marietta, Ohio

Just across the river from Parkersburg, West Virginia

Thanks for the help btw!


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## Ken Morgan

SahBumNimRush said:


> Marietta, Ohio
> 
> Just across the river from Parkersburg, West Virginia
> 
> Thanks for the help btw!


 
Man you're only 5 or 6 hours from us!!! 

Come on up in May and practice!! http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/iai.seminar.html


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## MBuzzy

SahBumNimRush said:


> Thanks MBuzzy, I guess I could/should do more research before posting.. . But I figure better to ask those on here that know vastly more than me about these things.  It's always been something I've been interested in, but know next to nothing about.
> 
> I appreciate the suggestions!  I am also very ignorant on the differences between japanese and korean swords.  I was under the impression that the Japanese samurai sword (katana?) was the holy grail of swords.. . If the korean swords are of equal power, I would much rather look into the Korean swords since I practice a Korean Martial Art.  Again, I mean no disrespect, my questions come from ignorance.. .



I'm with you.  I decided to stick with Korean all the way.  I really didn't want to learn to read and write Japanese, so it is just easier.  There are very few differences, although I can tell you that the Japanese style bokken are a big larger (heavier and larger diameter) than the Korean mokgum.  The sword that I purchased was intended to be a Japanese sword, but they are basically interchangeable.  If you truly want a Korean sword, it is all about the forge.  I use www.jingum.com because I know that they specialize in Korean swords (Japanese as well, but I've spoken to the owner and he has a great knowledge of Korean blades).  They purchase their swords from a Forge in South Korea, so I have confidence that they are forged properly from a Korean standpoint.  Although, looking at geography alone.....how different can they really be?


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## Ken Morgan

MBuzzy said:


> I really didn't want to learn to read and write Japanese,


 
Huh???

I've been involved in JSA for almost 11 years, and I know next to no Japanese. 95% of the people I know in the JSA have the same level of Japanese language skills. 

What would that be important at all?


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## Chris Parker

Hi,

I'm going to attempt to cover most of this thread at once here, so let's see how we go....

SahBumNimRush, the first reply you got here was spot on, what are you using it for? You have mentioned that you train in a Korean art (also shown in your handle), so I'm assuming either Tae Kwon Do or Hapkido (as those are the most prominent, I haven't checked your profile yet), and are interested in swordsmanship. From there, we have gone immediately into Japanese and Korean blades rather than Chinese, Western, or any other. But as that seems to be what you are after, all good. But what you get will be determined by your needs and uses. We'll get to that.

As mentioned, there is very little difference between Korean and Japanese blades. While the Japanese blade is often considered "unique", this may seem a little odd. I personally believe that the origins of Korean swordsmanship (as it exists today) comes from remnants of a number of ill-fated conquests of Korea by the Japanese, including ones from Oda Nobunaga and Takeda Shingen (these gave us famous weapons such as the Kata Kama Yari, said to have been used by Kito Kiyomasa when he would go hunting for tigers in Korea. I mention this to show that the sword is not really the weapon of the battlefield samurai as many believe, it's prominence came later. But enough on that...). As the Japanese left, some would stay behind, and the conquests themselves left their mark quite deeply on the Korean psyche. It is a big reason that there is such animosity between the Koreans and Japanese. So a part of what was left was the Japanese sword, and it's use.

That said, I am not aware of the Koreans using the same (or similar) forging methods as the Japanese, although the design and shape is certainly highly evocative of the Japanese original. So if you are going to study Korean swordsmanship (Kumdo), use a Korean sword. If you are going to study a Japanese sword art (Kenjutsu/Iai/Batto/many many many other names...), I recommend a Japanese blade. Of course, that is very expensive to get a genuine traditionally forged one ($10,000 US and up, typically).

So that brings us back to what you are wanting to do with it. As said, I would stick with the weapon of the art you are learning. But follow the advice of your instructor. For example, in studying with us, you would use a safe training sword (fukuro shinai, a leather covered bamboo sword) for pretty much everything in class. I then recommend for home training that a student gets a bokken, and later a suburito (wooden sword, and a very large wooden sword respectively. Suburito I have heard translated as "air-shaking sword") for conditioning their grip and forearms. If they are interested in Iai, then we look at saya (scabbards) for their bokken, and later move up to an Iaito (which is, as said, a metal bladed training sword, with the blade made from an aluminium/zinc alloy, making the blade well balanced and weighted, but too soft to take a cutting edge, and if used for impact can be damaged fairly easily). A relatively safe alternative to a live blade is what is refered to as a Mogito. This is a real sword, with a real blade, but not sharpened. Some companies, such as Furuyama Forge, sell Mogito under the name Iaito to avoid confusion. These blades can take an edge, and stand up to impact a fair bit better. Lastly, is a Shinken, or live blade. This is for the experienced practitioner or a dedicated cutting practitioner.

You stated that you are interested in a Japanese sword as it is the "holy grail" of swords. Now, I love Japanese swords, but that is a very subjective topic. Some may say that the Damascus blades are the best ever seen, and they have the higher value as the technology to recreate them has been lost to the ages (what is called Damascus steel today is named for it's looks rather than it's metalurgical properties). So it is personal preference (for the record, I'm with you there!). You then state that it is for aesthetics. Well, while the best swords are certainly beautiful works of art in and of themselves, pretty does not a sword make. I have owned a number of bokken that are quite beautiful themselves, in fact there have been a number of bokken made that are considered display and collectors items themselves. So aesthetics are again rather subjective. But I will say that aesthetics will only be a primary concern if it is a display sword only. If it is going to be used for anything else, there are much bigger concerns. First off, talk to your instructor about what they recommend, and follow what they say. And if you don't have an instructor and aren't getting one, and wish to use the sword, don't. Just don't. But if it's for display, get what you think is pretty...

Oh, and Ken, learning Japanese is not such a big thing if you are learning from an instructor in the West, and are taking all your information from them and English language sources. But if you are going to travel to the country of origin, or research independantly in a variety of places, I would say the language is certainly handy to know! At the very least, I expect you are familiar with the Japanese terms and names for the different parts of a sword, the fittings, the kamae, the cuts and thrusts etc, yeah?


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## Bruno@MT

Chris Parker said:


> You stated that you are interested in a Japanese sword as it is the "holy grail" of swords. Now, I love Japanese swords, but that is a very subjective topic. Some may say that the Damascus blades are the best ever seen, and they have the higher value as the technology to recreate them has been lost to the ages (what is called Damascus steel today is named for it's looks rather than it's metalurgical properties).



Almost 

What is called damascus steel today is pattern welded steel: 2 types of steel hammered together, folded, hammered, etc. After working the steel, the item is etched. The 2 different types of steel will etch differently, causing a pattern to appear. The folding methods and the grinding geometry determine the resulting pattern.

Ancient damascus steel was created by smelting ore in a crucible and letting it slowly cool to allow the forming of dendrite structures that cause the patterns and mettalurigcal properties. This technique was lost because it depended on a specific type of ore with the right combination of trace elements. It is presumed that the smiths of old didn't know -why- the ore was so important; just that it was. Making this steel required 3 important things: the right ore, the right smelting techniques, the right smithing and heat treatment techniques. When the ore ran out, the other knowledge was no longer passed on and lost a generation later.

However, research has regained this knowledge. Today this type of steel is known as 'wootz' and it is hideously expensive. It is comparable with today's supersteels, and outperforms everything else in cutting tests. The reason is that the dendritic structures are extremely hard, and wear less quickly than the surrounding steel. As a result, the cutting surface is littered with micro serrations that act like the teeth of a sawblade.

Wootz patterns are totally unlike modern damascus patterns though, if you know what to look for. The first pic is a blade that I made from pattern welded steel. The second blade was ground by another razor maker for the master smith who could get the wootz steel. For such a razor, you're basically paying in the 2000$ range. Pattern welded blades otoh start as low as 200$.













Chris Parker said:


> Oh, and Ken, learning Japanese is not such a big thing if you are learning from an instructor in the West, and are taking all your information from them and English language sources. But if you are going to travel to the country of origin, or research independantly in a variety of places, I would say the language is certainly handy to know! At the very least, I expect you are familiar with the Japanese terms and names for the different parts of a sword, the fittings, the kamae, the cuts and thrusts etc, yeah?



If you can find a teacher near you, then learning Japanese is not an impossible task. Not dramatically harder than learning another language that has its own character set. Once you can read and write the hiragana and katakana character sets, it becomes a matter of grammar and vocuabulary, just like when learning Greek or Latin.


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## MBuzzy

First point, Let's not limit ourselves strictly to Kumdo.  While the letters K and G are the same character in Hangul, for some reason, many different arts have evolved around the Korean Korean sword which have similar names.  Kumdo, Haidong Gumdo, Daehan Gumdo, among others.  There are also a few Korean styles that don't even have the word k/gumdo in the name.  Believe it or not, Korean sword styles are just as prolific as Japanese, although I would agree with you that the Korean got their sword making technology and the basis for their techniques from the Japanese in one way or another.  

The rub about going out and buying your own sword is that if you ever DO find an instructor, they are more than likely going to ask you not to use yours and to only use the blades and swords that they recommend.  I know that my styles won't let you test or compete with any "non-approved" sword.  There are PLENTY of cheap swords out there that will fall apart and send pieces flying, which as you can imagine is a bad thing.

As to forging methods, if there was at one time a difference in methods, I doubt that it exists today.  Mainly because many of the forges that you buy "Korean" swords from also sell Katana.  I'm just guessing here though.



Ken Morgan said:


> Huh???
> 
> I've been involved in JSA for almost 11 years, and I know next to no Japanese. 95% of the people I know in the JSA have the same level of Japanese language skills.
> 
> What would that be important at all?



That's just me.  Certainly not necessary.  When I got serious about Korean Martial arts, I lived in Korea and I learned the language.  To me, it is a way to learn more about the style and get more depth while also paying homage to the culture that created the style.  Plus, honestly, I can't tell you how useful reading and speaking Korean has been in my study of Korean martial arts....even since I'm not there any more.  You would be surprised how many Americans have NO IDEA whatsoever what they are saying.  In general, Pronunciation is terrible, word usage is all word, the honorifics are messed up.....to me, it almost gets to an insulting level with some people.  Plus, do you know how many 4th Dans and above have tried to correct me about Korean language and pronunciation?  When told that I speak the language and lived there for a year, even when confirmed by other Koreans, many refuse to accept that they have been wrong for 20 years.


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## Ken Morgan

Absolutely, learning/speaking Japanese would help clarify instruction from unilingual Japanese instructors, but in the west, its really not necessary. We have amazing highly ranked English speaking instructors.

I know the basics of the Japanese language, (enough to order a beer and get my face slapped ), and one day, I may make an attempt to learn more, but unless Im in a position to use those skills, my newfound abilities will slip away very quickly.


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## MBuzzy

Ken Morgan said:


> Absolutely, learning/speaking Japanese would help clarify instruction from unilingual Japanese instructors, but in the west, its really not necessary. We have amazing highly ranked English speaking instructors.
> 
> I know the basics of the Japanese language, (enough to order a beer and get my face slapped ), and one day, I may make an attempt to learn more, but unless Im in a position to use those skills, my newfound abilities will slip away very quickly.


 
Not to pull this further off topic, but you are right, there are plenty of instructors who speak English.  The problem that I have run into with the KMA instructors who speak english is that they have no idea what they are saying and are often mis-speaking.  Plus, I have learned more than I could ever learn here by reading Hangul texts.


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## SahBumNimRush

Although this has got a bit off topic here, I do have some thoughts on the matter.

MBuzzy, how correct you are about Americans butchering the Korean Language.  When I started, in 1985, the first terminology I learned was "attention."  Keep in mind my instructor trained directly under our Kwan Jang Nim, a Korean Master.  And even still, he pronounced it "shaw-root!"  There was one black belt in our school, that always pronounced things differently (turns out he was an intelligence interpreter during the Vietnam War and spoke nearly every asian language).  I latched on to his pronounciation early on, and when I was in Chiropractic School in Chicago, there were 8 Koreans that were in my class.  I siezed this opportunity to learn more about Hangul and pronounciation, which has helped me tremendously.  

Although I am certain I would be lost in Korea, I know I speak the terminology correctly, and can write it out.  But the finer points of knowing how to change prounciation depending on syntax and grammer still escape me.  As does the proper usage of formalities in some instances and when to use sino-korean vs. native korean.  

But atleast I know that Sino-korean isn't an ordinal number!  I see so many that insist &#51068; (il) is 1st, not 1.. . When I ask them what &#51228;&#51068; (che-il) is then?  They give me deer in the headlights looks, haha.. .  

I agree that it is not imperative to know the Korean language to understand the art, but, personally, I wish to honor the culture by not butchering the language.  All commands in my dojang are in Korean (well, in butchered Korean).  Most of the students have a hard time understanding me, because I do not pronounciate like the other instructors.. . But I know I'm atleast closer to the true pronounciation than the others.


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## SahBumNimRush

As for the original intent of this thread, I would like to sincerely thank everyone for giving me some insite and information on swords and sword arts.  Although I would love to learn, I do not have access to an instructor of the sword arts, nor do I have the money.. .

However, I have got a good start of information to atleast point me in the right direction for reading material.  Since I cannot train, I can atleast read until I have the time, money and opportunity to possibly travel and train.

I welcome any further info/opinions you all have to offer!  Thank you very much!


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## Langenschwert

SahBumNimRush said:


> I was under the impression that the Japanese samurai sword (katana?) was the holy grail of swords.


 
Indeed not. The katana is just a nice two handed sabre when you get right down to it. It's not magical, and there is no "best" sword. As long as it is well-made, a sword is a sword, and they all do the same thing to greater or lesser degrees. There are some VERY specialized types (smallsword and estoc for example), but that's the exception, not the rule.

The most important thing when pursuing swordsmanship is finding a good teacher. Sword arts from all over the world share the same basic principles. For example, I study both European and Koryu Japanese swordsmanship. While to a certain degree you really do have to "empty your cup" to learn a different art, the similarties are enough that I really do believe Hanko Dobringer's statement (in 1389) that "there is but one art of the sword". I started HNIR years after I started German longsword, but I was able to hang all the gross motor movements and principles from HNIR on my longsword "framework" to help me remember it. After that, I'm now working on the specifics of the art. Likewise, if an HNIR practicioner wanted to learn German longsword, he could use the identical process, only in reverse.  After all, a cut is a cut and a thrust is a thrust.

What I'm saying is, don't get hung up on Japanese/German/Korean/Italian or whatever. Find good instruction above all.

Best regards,

-Mark


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## Sukerkin

Quite right, Mark.  

The techniques and applications in various arts can be very different but the core principles of 'sharp bits of the blade in the quishy bits of the other guy' mean that certain things are foundational whatever kind of sword you are using.


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## Bruno@MT

SahBumNimRush said:


> I was under the impression that the Japanese samurai sword (katana?) was the holy grail of swords.. . .



Yes and no.
When it comes to using the sword as a tool, then I suppose a traditionally made Japanese sword can be just as good / effective as a modern korean made sword.

However, the true beauty of a japanese sword -to me- is in the process of making it. Because of the strict adherence to the traditional ways in all aspects (from smelting the ore to smithing to polishing and sharpening), the sword is really a work of art and something to be admired in its own right.

I can look at a naked blade without any of the fittings and be awed and humbled by the mastery that went into its making. That feeling goes beyond the tangible value of the katana as a weapon.


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## MBuzzy

Bruno@MT said:


> Yes and no.
> When it comes to using the sword as a tool, then I suppose a traditionally made Japanese sword can be just as good / effective as a modern korean made sword.
> 
> However, the true beauty of a japanese sword -to me- is in the process of making it. Because of the strict adherence to the traditional ways in all aspects (from smelting the ore to smithing to polishing and sharpening), the sword is really a work of art and something to be admired in its own right.
> 
> I can look at a naked blade without any of the fittings and be awed and humbled by the mastery that went into its making. That feeling goes beyond the tangible value of the katana as a weapon.



The thing is, many of things that you mention here are done the same for Korean blades from a good forge.  From a lesser forge, the Japanese and Korean blades are made the same way, with just as little reverence.  It ALL depends on the forge, not the country of origin or usage.


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## Bruno@MT

MBuzzy said:


> The thing is, many of things that you mention here are done the same for Korean blades from a good forge.  From a lesser forge, the Japanese and Korean blades are made the same way, with just as little reverence.  It ALL depends on the forge, not the country of origin or usage.



It depends. Some of the traditional things are omitted because of cost effectiveness or efficiency. A blacksmith friend of mine has visited the place where Japanese tamahagane is smelted, and he has had (interpreted) conversations with the master smelter.

The smelting process is still done entirely by hand and the master determines the correct points of adding ore and charcoal solely by the sound of the air blazing in the furnace, and the color of the flames. I know from my friend that the temperature window he has to hit is very small. Yet the accuracy with which he does this is at least as good as can be done with modern thermal equipment in a modern steelmill.

Same for heat treatment of the blades. The temperature window for getting the optimum heat treatment characteristics of tamahagane is only 5 degrees centigrade. And the smith is able to hit that just by interpreting the moving color gradients of the steel. That sort of thing is amazing.

I am not saying that there are no korean masters who can do this. If you know of them, I would be glad to learn more about them. The only ones I know of who do everything the old way are Japanese. I do know that the majority of non traditionally made blades (regardless of the smithing) is made using modern thermal equipment. This is the reason that quality blades can be made in affordable price ranges, in adequate numbers to fulfill the demand. And while those blades may be a functional and technical equivalent to the handmade blades I revere, they do not represent the art and skill that went into those handmade blades.


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## MBuzzy

As I said, it depends completely on the forge.  That, and how much you are willing to pay.  I don't personally know of any Korean smiths, but that is mainly because I order my blades through my instructor.  They have a number of forges in Korea and Japan that they use.  Depending on the quality of the blade and the price that you are willing to pay, different forges are used.  I can't personally name any Korean OR Japanese smiths....but without knowing every source in both countries, I can't speak for the methods used.

Also, I am willing to bet that it is not easy to find a smith who uses the completely traditional processes and when you do, chances are, you will be paying for it.  To me, a sword that takes 3 months to make and is done completely traditionally is cost restrictive.  I'll settle for the forges that are readily available and can make blades at reasonable prices.  When I AM willing to pay 10-15K for a sword, I'll be more worried about which smith I use.


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## Chris Parker

Just to bring it back to the country of origin thing, there are said to be a number of reasons for the quality of the Japanese blade, relating to the steel itself. Tamahagane has a number of requirements in order to attain that title, ranging from the smelting process (and the use of a Tatara furnace) back down to the specific type of iron ore sand used in the first place. This sand is said to be found in only one place (or a few places), along a riverbank in Japan, and has far fewer impurities such as sulphur than other iron ore deposits. So the country of origin does actually come into it, at the most essential level.


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## Ken Morgan

It is very often less expensive to buy an antique blade then a new one. An inexpensive new blade, from a newer smith, with polish, saya and fittings will run you, starting at 5 or 6K. They are after all limited in the production they are allowed to produce a month.

To me a traditional Japanese forged blade is an investment in art. It is not something I would ever use for iai or cutting.

I worked in the steel business for 10 years; you can buy some amazing steels that the Japanese smiths of old would have loved to have gotten their hands on. 

If you want a blade for cutting or iai, a Chinese, American, or what have you, machine made blade will do just fine.


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## MBuzzy

Ken, that is a great point - although there are some "levels" of cutting that require the more expensive/better made steel.  If you want to do the advanced trick cutting through more than just bamboo, you may need to look at some of those expensive blade.  I know some masters who do use very expensive blades for cutting and demonstrations...but these are also blades of such quality that it is very difficult to damage them just going through bamboo (if you are of the right skill level and not just a really really rich beginner).

I would love to talk more intelligently about the forging methods in different asian countries, but unfortunately, I can only speak from anecdotes, wikipedia, and assumptions at this point.  I will certainly return to Korea and hopefully Japan in the future and with any luck get a look at some forges.  Until then, I'll have to respectfully let you guys finish the discussion.....although I would be VERY surprised if there wasn't a single "traditional forge" in Korea.  The Japanese certainly don't have the market cornered on their method, if they did Korean swords would look differently.  Plus, how do you avoid it after you occupy a country for 40 years and trade people back and forth?!


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## Ken Morgan

Don&#8217;t misunderstand me, it&#8217;s the polish that gets marked up, not the blade in cutting!! Considering an art polish can run you thousands and thousands of dollars, I&#8217;d rather not ruin it! 

You don&#8217;t have to have a traditional forged Japanese blade to have a &#8220;great&#8221; blade. Many modern steels are in many ways far superior to traditional formed tamahagane blades.

If I&#8217;m telling you information that you already know, tell me and I&#8217;ll shut the hell up!! 

The Japanese used sand iron, simply because that&#8217;s all they had. Hence also why Japanese armour is leather with multiple coats of lacquer, they did not have access to the iron ore deposits we had in the west. The folding of a Japanese blade had/has two purposes, it burned off the impurities in the steel and it added carbon to the steel. Those cool patterns on the blades visible after polishing? Those are impurities. Modern tool steels or even some high carbon1090 steels, make great blades, they just don&#8217;t have those cool patterns. Honestly, if you&#8217;re a Japanese smith of old, I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;d rather use a homogenous steel then Tamahagane, it&#8217;s much, much less work to make a blade.

Traditional Japanese blades were not unique in their construction. A soft inner core and a hard outer jacket, were used for example by the Vikings and Saxons too.

I use a Chinese made steel shinken. The balance is great, and it cuts like a SOB. When I do buy a traditionally made blade, I will consider it an investment, something to pass on to my children. 

You don&#8217;t need to buy a good baseball bat from the US, a good hockey stick from Canada, a good cricket bat from the UK, a good cheese from France or even a good Scotch, (blasphemy!), from Scotland. You do not have to go to Japan to get a good Japanese sword.


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## MBuzzy

Ken Morgan said:


> The Japanese used sand iron, simply because thats all they had. Hence also why Japanese armour is leather with multiple coats of lacquer, they did not have access to the iron ore deposits we had in the west. The folding of a Japanese blade had/has two purposes, it burned off the impurities in the steel and it added carbon to the steel. Those cool patterns on the blades visible after polishing? Those are impurities. Modern tool steels or even some high carbon1090 steels, make great blades, they just dont have those cool patterns. Honestly, if youre a Japanese smith of old, Im sure youd rather use a homogenous steel then Tamahagane, its much, much less work to make a blade.



Fully agree with everything you said - especially the part about not needing to go to Japan to get a good sword.

A few minor things though, first, another reason to fold the steel is to ensure a homogeneous product.

Also, the hamon is not caused by impurities.  It is caused by the differential hardening of the blade.  During the quenching process, clay is applied to the back of the sword to control the speed at which the softer metal hardens.  The hamon is just a side effect, although it is also a sign that the blade has been differentially hardened and is therefore generally of a higher quality.


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## Ken Morgan

MBuzzy said:


> Fully agree with everything you said - especially the part about not needing to go to Japan to get a good sword.
> 
> A few minor things though, first, another reason to fold the steel is to ensure a homogeneous product.
> 
> Also, the hamon is not caused by impurities. It is caused by the differential hardening of the blade. During the quenching process, clay is applied to the back of the sword to control the speed at which the softer metal hardens. The hamon is just a side effect, although it is also a sign that the blade has been differentially hardened and is therefore generally of a higher quality.


 
Yes, beating out the impurities and adding carbon to get a homogeneous steel

And yes the pattern on the hamon is created by the addition of clay and the different cooling/quenching tempertures.

But I'm not refering to the hamon specifically, I'm talking about the patterns that can run through a blade itself, more specifically seen in damascus.

ummm, what are we talking about again? Looks like we're both preaching to the choir....


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## MBuzzy

It is christmas, maybe people are doing christmasy stuff!  At least we're still on topic....kind of.


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## Ken Morgan

MBuzzy said:


> At least we're still on topic....kind of.


 
And how often does that really happen around here???


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## Brian R. VanCise

Hey Ken and Mbuzzy,

The real issue with a blade made from Japan and in contrast from China, Korea, America, etc. is generally found in the fittings.  My experience in owning blades from all of the above is that the fittings, saya, etc. are of a much higher quality in general when you purchase directly from Japan.  Now that is not saying that a few places in the US do not produce fittings on an equal level but in general the fittings, craftsmanship coming out of Japan is fantastic.  Just my 02.


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## jks9199

MBuzzy said:


> Fully agree with everything you said - especially the part about not needing to go to Japan to get a good sword.
> 
> A few minor things though, first, another reason to fold the steel is to ensure a homogeneous product.
> 
> Also, the hamon is not caused by impurities.  It is caused by the differential hardening of the blade.  During the quenching process, clay is applied to the back of the sword to control the speed at which the softer metal hardens.  The hamon is just a side effect, although it is also a sign that the blade has been differentially hardened and is therefore generally of a higher quality.


There are different markings.  The hamon is a clear, fairly easily seen line, created, as you said, by the differential hardening process.  As I understand it, each sword maker has their own pattern of applying the clays, making it recognizable.

Within the steel itself, you have lines that look kind of like wood grain; that's caused and created in the folding process.


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## MBuzzy

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Ken and Mbuzzy,
> 
> The real issue with a blade made from Japan and in contrast from China, Korea, America, etc. is generally found in the fittings.  My experience in owning blades from all of the above is that the fittings, saya, etc. are of a much higher quality in general when you purchase directly from Japan.  Now that is not saying that a few places in the US do not produce fittings on an equal level but in general the fittings, craftsmanship coming out of Japan is fantastic.  Just my 02.



Good points, Brian...but I still maintain that it is SO much more about the smith than the country.  There are probably a higher volume of good smiths in Japan, making them easier to find.  Of course, maybe I'm being idealistic, but I'm also not willing to dismiss Korea, US, China, etc as "good" sword makers simply because they are not Japan.  I really think that a lot of it is simply in the perception that Japanese blades are so much better.  

hehe, I suppose I'll get back to you in a few years when I have more experience with forges from different countries!  I may be WAY off base and Japan IS the only place to get a truly quality sword.  Although I still have the anecdotal evidence of my Instructors who have incredibly high quality blades forged in Korea.


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## Bruno@MT

Ken Morgan said:


> The folding of a Japanese blade had/has two purposes, it burned off the impurities in the steel and it *added carbon to the steel*. Those cool patterns on the blades visible after polishing? Those are impurities. Modern tool steels or even some high carbon1090 steels, make great blades, they just don&#8217;t have those cool patterns. Honestly, if you&#8217;re a Japanese smith of old, I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;d rather use a homogenous steel then Tamahagane, it&#8217;s much, much less work to make a blade.



This is not correct.
Carbon is lost during the folding process, due to the decarburization caused by the heating cycles that are necessary for the folding process.

The folding is indeed necessary to make the tamahagane homogenous and to remove the impurities. The carbon content of the raw steel for the outer skin is very high. 1.4% or something. This makes it almost unusable for use as-is, but it is perfect for the folding process because even after the lengthy decarburization, the carbon content is still high. I think it was 0.7 to 0.9% but don't pin me down on those numbers. It was lower than the starting value.

You are right though, about the reason for folding: it was to make the steel usable. Back in those days, swords were made for their primary purpose: to kill with. If those smiths could have cut their production time in half by using steel without impurities, they would have done so.

This is what is done by many traditional smiths today who manufacture knives, chisels, etc. They use a type of swedish steel that is virtually identical to folded tamahagane. This makes it possible to manufacture those tools using their traditional methods without requiring genuine tamahagane (the good stuff) that is virtually impossible to get for non-sword smithing purposes.


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## Brian R. VanCise

MBuzzy said:


> Good points, Brian...but I still maintain that it is SO much more about the smith than the country.  There are probably a higher volume of good smiths in Japan, making them easier to find.  Of course, maybe I'm being idealistic, but I'm also not willing to dismiss Korea, US, China, etc as "good" sword makers simply because they are not Japan.  I really think that a lot of it is simply in the perception that Japanese blades are so much better.
> 
> hehe, I suppose I'll get back to you in a few years when I have more experience with forges from different countries!  I may be WAY off base and Japan IS the only place to get a truly quality sword.  Although I still have the anecdotal evidence of my Instructors who have incredibly high quality blades forged in Korea.




Hey MBuzzy,

I am certainly not saying that you cannot get a great sword some place else.  However, having held multiple jingum from Korea, katanas from China, etc. I can tell you there is a difference in quality of the fittings, saya, etc.  I personally have several Korean swords and not one matches up with my best Japanese blades.  That does not however mean that their is a smith/forge in Korea producing blades on equal or better it just means that in my experience the fittings, etc. are of a higher quality when they come from Japan.  I do however cut tameshigeri with a blade from China. (you have to save your best blades)


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## Ken Morgan

Bruno@MT said:


> This is not correct.
> Carbon is lost during the folding process, due to the decarburization caused by the heating cycles that are necessary for the folding process.
> .


 
Correct, carbon will be lost, but in the folding process the smith adds the carbon by adding straw rice to the mix. We're all leaving out many details just to get to the main points...


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## Bruno@MT

We seem to have entered a tamahagane trivia contest 

As fun as this can be, I won't distract from the main topic any further to avoid the risk of sounding pedantic and / or looking like a metallurgy nerd. It's certainly not my intention to be a nuisance.

It is interesting though: The beauty of traditional swordforging is not only to make such excellent swords, but to make them out of raw materials with so many imperfections.

Merry Christmas all!


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## Ken Morgan

Well we all seem to have a clue...so again we're preaching to the choir...

Come on I just want someone to come in and say how cool Japanese swords are, and how they can cut machine gun barrels, and **** like that!! Then we can gang up on them and mock them in a Monty Python sorts of way....

anyone? anyone? Bueller? anyone?


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## jks9199

Ken Morgan said:


> Well we all seem to have a clue...so again we're preaching to the choir...
> 
> Come on I just want someone to come in and say how cool Japanese swords are, and how they can cut machine gun barrels, and **** like that!! Then we can gang up on them and mock them in a Monty Python sorts of way....
> 
> anyone? anyone? Bueller? anyone?


I, like, saw this movie, and, like, the guy in it had, like, a samurai sword that was so sharp that he, like, let a scarf fall on it and it, like, cut the scarf as it fell...

And, then, in this other movie, this, like, super master sword maker was making sushi, but he made swords that were, like, so sharp that they could cut people's heads off and they, like, wouldn't know it until their head fell off when they like nodded!

And in this other movie, this guy had a sword that was like folded like 20000 times!


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## Bruno@MT

Ken Morgan said:


> Well we all seem to have a clue...so again we're preaching to the choir...
> 
> Come on I just want someone to come in and say how cool Japanese swords are, and how they can cut machine gun barrels, and **** like that!! Then we can gang up on them and mock them in a Monty Python sorts of way....
> 
> anyone? anyone? Bueller? anyone?



We can invite some of the youtube crowd?


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## Ken Morgan

Bruno@MT said:


> We can invite some of the youtube crowd?


 
Fish in a barrel my friend, fish in a barrel...


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## lklawson

Bruno@MT said:


> Ancient damascus steel was created by smelting ore in a crucible and letting it slowly cool to allow the forming of dendrite structures that cause the patterns and mettalurigcal properties. This technique was lost because it depended on a specific type of ore with the right combination of trace elements. It is presumed that the smiths of old didn't know -why- the ore was so important; just that it was. Making this steel required 3 important things: the right ore, the right smelting techniques, the right smithing and heat treatment techniques. When the ore ran out, the other knowledge was no longer passed on and lost a generation later.
> 
> However, research has regained this knowledge. Today this type of steel is known as 'wootz' and it is hideously expensive. It is comparable with today's supersteels, and outperforms everything else in cutting tests. The reason is that the dendritic structures are extremely hard, and wear less quickly than the surrounding steel. As a result, the cutting surface is littered with micro serrations that act like the teeth of a sawblade.


There's a whole big debate over whether or not modern "techno-wootz" really is "the real deal" wootz, how much the ancient persian smiths actually understood about their crucible steel process, and whether or not nano-structures such as dendritic fibers or carbon nano-tubes were responsible for wootz's mythic cutting legend or if, instead, it was carbide structures performing a similar function or if, indeed, wootz really deserved its legendary cutting reputation.

The fact is, we will probably never know for sure, but I'm, personally, inclined to think that modern "techno-wootz" is fairly close based on some electron microscope studies of surviving examples of true wootz in comparison with "techno-wootz."

Oh, BTW, nice pattern welding.  I have a soft spot for pattern-welded blades.  Do you do 'hawks and bowies too or is that market too saturated?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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