# American flag waving may actually sell at the box office...



## billc (Jul 16, 2011)

An article about hollywood using American patriotism to sell the movie "Captain America," which would go against the theory that Americanism doesn't sell any more...

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/j...oster-is-all-about-marketing-the-flag-waving/

From the article:

For years Hollywood&#8217;s been telling us patriotism and pro-America doesn&#8217;t sell and yet here we have a major studio (Paramount) and brand (Marvel) going full &#8220;jingosim&#8221; with their major tentpole of the summer.
Why?
I guess furthering The Big Lie was no longer worth losing The Big Money. Unabashed, sincere patriotism most certainly helped &#8220;Iron Man&#8221; become a sleeper hit *and* an iconic classic. With DVD sales plumetting, it looks as though Hollywood &#8212; at least in some cases &#8211; can no longer afford to put propaganda above profit.
Pro-America sells. Period. We&#8217;ve documented this again and again and again and again. Anti-Americanism does not sell. A 100% flop-rate with over a dozen anti-war films proves that beyond a doubt. 
And so it&#8217;s awfully nice to see that with just a few days to go before their film opens, Paramount and Marvel have decided the smart bet was to lay their chips on the red, white, and blue. 
Thanks to some good ol-fashioned patriotic advertising and a couple of very cool trailers, the bad taste of Johnston&#8217;s obscene comments is finally washed away and I&#8217;m looking forward to a Friday matinee for the first time in a long time.

other articles on America and hollywood:

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/j...e-great-lie-americanism-doesnt-sell-overseas/

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/j...ell-us-pro-american-hurts-foreign-box-office/

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/l...l-overseas-are-you-listening-captain-america/


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## elder999 (Jul 16, 2011)

billi, billi, billi-ya gotta stop listening to this guy, I'm tellin' ya.



billcihak said:


> An article about hollywood using American patriotism to sell the movie "Captain America," which would go against the theory that Americanism doesn't sell any more...


*
What* theory that "Americanism doesn't sell any more?" I haven't seen or read that anywhere, *ever*, so I'm thinking he made it up.



billcihak said:


> For years Hollywood&#8217;s been telling us patriotism and pro-America doesn&#8217;t sell ?



_Really_? *Where* has Hollywood been telling us that? Honestly? I think he made it up.



billcihak said:


> Anti-Americanism does not sell. A 100% flop-rate with over a dozen anti-war films proves that beyond a doubt.



Does "_anti-war_" equate with "_anti-American_?" I certainly hope not.

Is anyone "_*pro-war*_?" Does "pro-war" (whatever insanity that might be) equate with "pro-American?" I certainly hope not.

Additionally, _Born on the Fourth of July_ was anti-war, patriotic, based on a true story, a box-office and critical success nominated for 8 Academy awards, and winning Oliver Stone best director. 

Breitbart's an *idiot*, dude.:lfao: You need to cut it off, ASAP.

No poetry, because, let's face it: when you step in dog-poo like this, there's nothing poetic about it. :lfao:


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## Tez3 (Jul 16, 2011)

I don't think I've ever seen an anti American film made by Americans, in fact one of the gripes Europeans and other non Americans have with films that come out of America is how* pro* American they all are. Sometimes they even seem like propaganda for the American way of life! It doesn't stop anyone enjoying the films however so is a minor point.


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## Steve (Jul 16, 2011)

Miracle
National Treasure
Flags of Our Fathers
United 93
Pursuit of Happyness
Charlie Wilson's War
Iron Man (and Iron Man 2)
Hurt Locker
Band of Brothers

Just off the top of my head, these are movies that either portray the military in a positive and/or sympathetic light, or portray capitalism in a positive and/or sympathetic light, or, like Miracle, are just overtly pro-American.  They're all what I'd consider pro-american.  If we go back into the 90's or earlier, there are many more, but these are the ones that jump to mind from the relatively recent past.


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## Twin Fist (Jul 16, 2011)

Jeff, in your areas of expertise, you are quite sharp. So is Andrew Brietbart. if you bothered to read instead of knee jerking your way through this issue, you would have learned that the LA Times quoted a hollywood type stating flat out that "pro america" films dont sell well over seas. Brietbarts article proves that is bull crap. Thats the point. 

it is a proven fact that hollywood runs on leftist bias

hollywood producers CLAIM they only think about profitt, not politics, BUT films with anti american themes get green lighted EVEN THOUGH they never make money

we all know YOU dont believe in leftist propaganda, but your belief, or lack thereof doesnt alter reality


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## Omar B (Jul 16, 2011)

You can add every Michael Bay and Stephen Speilberg movie to that list too.  Hollywood anti-American?  It's one of the most American things we have, it's become part of American culture and world culture even.  Whatever themes are contained in a movie, if you agree with them or not if they are made within the Hollywood system it can say what it wishes because of our right to free speech.  Just like how people can also freely object to a movie because that's also free speech.


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## elder999 (Jul 16, 2011)

Omar B said:


> You can add every Michael Bay and Stephen Speilberg movie to that list too. Hollywood anti-American? It's one of the most American things we have, it's become part of American culture and world culture even. Whatever themes are contained in a movie, if *you agree with them or not if they are made within the Hollywood system it can say what it wishes because of our right to free speech*. Just like how people can also freely object to a movie because that's also free speech.



*QFT!* :asian:



Twin Fist said:


> Jeff, in your areas of expertise, you are quite sharp. So is Andrew Brietbart. if you bothered to read instead of knee jerking your way through this issue, you would have learned that the LA Times quoted a hollywood type stating flat out that "pro america" films dont sell well over seas. Brietbarts article proves that is bull crap. Thats the point.



_*A* "Hollywood type?"_ And he says that "pro america" films don't sell well *over seas*.

Well, I guess that's enough to say that "*Hollywood*," as in "*all of *Hollywood" is anti-American......

....if you're an *idiot,* like Mr. Breitbart, that is.




Twin Fist said:


> it is a proven fact that hollywood runs on leftist bias



Not to me, it isn't. Hollywood runs on *$$$*. That many out there have a leftist bias or slant, I have no doubt. If movies about the likes of Sarah Palin were suddenly popular( and, thus, _profitable_) though, they'd be churning out right-wing propaganda like a fascism machine....:lfao:




Twin Fist said:


> hollywood producers CLAIM they only think about profitt, not politics, BUT films with anti american themes get green lighted EVEN THOUGH they never make money



Films with pro-American themes get green lighted, too. All the time. Always have, though some might argue about what a "pro-American theme" might be. Consider _To Kill A Mockingbird_ or _Inherit the Wind_.





Twin Fist said:


> we all know YOU dont believe in leftist propaganda, but your belief, or lack thereof doesnt alter reality



I do believe in leftist propaganda. I just don't see it *everywhere*. like some (*idiots!*) do. :lfao:


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## Tez3 (Jul 16, 2011)

I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'pro American' films aren't popular overseas, I doubt it's because it's because they are 'pro American', for many places sub titles have to be added and for many that detracts from the film, those that are dubbed again don't sound right and aren't so popular. How many  foreign language films are box office hits in America? There's many reasons why some films are more popular than others, I don't think it's because people don't like pro American films, as I said we are used to American films being 'pro American', we understand that American film makers obviously think a lot of their country and the films in the first place are made for the American market not ours.


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## Twin Fist (Jul 16, 2011)

so, if the great jeff doesnt agree with someone, that person must be an idiot......

i get it now.


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## elder999 (Jul 16, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> so, if the great jeff doesnt agree with someone, that person must be an idiot......
> 
> i get it now.



Nah.If they spout _idiocy_ like that in the OP then they must be an idiot.

_The great jeff_? I like that! 

_I am the great Gazoo!_ :lfao:


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## billc (Jul 16, 2011)

From the original post from the article:

For years Hollywood&#8217;s been telling us patriotism and pro-America doesn&#8217;t sell and yet here we have a major studio (Paramount) and brand (Marvel) going full &#8220;jingosim&#8221; with their major tentpole of the summer.
Why?
I guess furthering The Big Lie was no longer worth losing The Big Money. Unabashed, sincere patriotism most certainly helped &#8220;Iron Man&#8221; become a sleeper hit *and* an iconic classic
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, the point of the article is that films that are not Anti-American do sell overseas.  It is in hollywood where they are shy about pro-american movies not selling.   The superman line about "Truth, justice, and the american way," being cut so "the american way," wasn't heard, is one example of the hollywood fear that people overseas dislike america.    I have to argue with the hurt locker, it portrays american and british soldiers in a bad way.  the movies you highlight Steve are the movies that show that pro-american and capitalism films are successful.    I can give you a long list of other movies that are just the opposite, made no money but encouraged other hollywood types to make movies like them.  the large number of anti-war on terror films come to mind that show the U.S. and american servicemen and women in a bad light comes to mind, and they keep making them.   The Band of brothers was successful, the show about the pacific theater was less so and Tom Hanks probably didn't help by criticizing our efforts against the Japanese.

Iron man, I woud say the whole industrialist as bad guy is way overdone in too many movies.  In a movie that starts off against muslim terrorists it circled back around to the bad Stark industries and the bad industrialist, and Tony Stark redeems himself by giving up the arms trade.

the initial stories about captain america beign less about him being captain America and more about just being a good person is one clue to the embarrassment a good majority of hollywood feels about this country.


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## billc (Jul 16, 2011)

In a just released related article about Jane Fonda, "Hanoi Jane,"

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/j...es-canceled-qvc-appearance-on-the-right-wing/


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## RandomPhantom700 (Jul 16, 2011)

I'm assuming, for the purpose of this thread, "Americanism" = "American patriotism."  That being said, I really don't want to dive into this again.  We've had threads in the past regarding this alleged across-the-board liberal bias in Hollywood.  See here, and here.


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## Twin Fist (Jul 16, 2011)

elder999 said:


> Nah.If they spout _idiocy_ like that in the OP then they must be an idiot.
> 
> _The great jeff_? I like that!
> 
> _I am the great Gazoo!_ :lfao:


the heads are the same size...............


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## billc (Jul 17, 2011)

A debate from NPR on this topic:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6625002

from the article:

Defining what were to be the supporters' central arguments, Kimball enumerated two specific ways in which Hollywood encourages anti-Americanism: by exporting a wealth of what he described as violent, tasteless representations of American culture that vilify government and corporations, and through films such as _Syriana_, which he said actively and directly criticize U.S. institutions and industry.


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## elder999 (Jul 17, 2011)

billcihak said:


> A debate from NPR on this topic:
> 
> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6625002
> 
> ...



Which is *BS*. :angry:

The U.S. was founded on _dissent_. Criticisms of our institutions and industry in the public square are essential elements of "_*Americanism*_." 

Anyone who holds otherwise clearly doesn't understand what it means to be an American, or is an _*idiot.*_.


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## Twin Fist (Jul 17, 2011)

dissent is different from slander


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## MA-Caver (Jul 17, 2011)

Schindler's List, Das Boot, Downfall and dozens of others... are these films pro-Nazi? 
What about Letters from Iwo Jima? Pro-imperialist Japan? 
These films did very well respectfully in their own right... so who is to say? 

I myself haven't seen any signs of a pro-American film doing poorly at the box-office... unless it was created and acted poorly.


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## Tez3 (Jul 17, 2011)

MA-Caver said:


> Schindler's List, Das Boot, Downfall and dozens of others... are these films pro-Nazi?
> What about Letters from Iwo Jima? Pro-imperialist Japan?
> These films did very well respectfully in their own right... so who is to say?
> 
> I myself haven't seen any signs of a pro-American film doing poorly at the box-office... unless it was created and acted poorly.




Das Boot is a German production, hence the German title.


Do people watch films thinking this film is pro or anti American? I doubt it, they are more likely to think the film is either well or badly acted, interesting, entertaining or rubbish. There are a great number of rubbish films which are so bad  (not B movies, C ones lol) they are great fun but while the scenery is falling down, the acting is hammy and the lines really bad you can't say they are anti American, quite the opposite actually. This reminds me of the thing about a certain Christian group telling everyone there were demonic messages floating in the cloud in Lion King, I guess if you want to you can make anything sound how you want it to. 
I'm very hard put to think of any American made film that is anti American, at least any that has been exported as alleged.


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## billc (Jul 17, 2011)

Here is an interesting video on youtube, "The world according to Andrew Klavan," an author who had two books made into movies and wrote a screenplay which starred michael caine.  The hollywood part that applies to this thread starts at 24 minutes where he talks about having embedded with the troops in Afghanistan and the slew of anti-american war movies that came out since the start of the war...


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## elder999 (Jul 17, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> dissent is different from slander



Except that there is no slande or libel, in *fiction,* dude. _Defamation_ is a possibility, but an individual has to prove that a character from the story is modeled after them in a defamatory way.


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## Tez3 (Jul 18, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Here is an interesting video on youtube, "The world according to Andrew Klavan," an author who had two books made into movies and wrote a screenplay which starred michael caine. The hollywood part that applies to this thread starts at 24 minutes where he talks about having embedded with the troops in Afghanistan and the slew of anti-american war movies that came out since the start of the war...




As the accusation is that these films are being exported which films are these? Is this just hot air again as I've never seen any anti American war films either advertised or mentioned anywhere over here. Not that I will watch war films, my other half sits and criticises them making it impossible to watch. He was a military instructor and can't get out of that mode when watching war films, he likes them though and has also never heard or seen of these anti American war films you chatter about.


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## billc (Jul 18, 2011)

Here is a script review of an upcoming movie that goes to the point of hollywood and the entertainment industry being anti-american to the point that they will distort real villians in order to portray americans as the bad guys..."The Whislte blower"

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/y...l-inaccuracies-plaque-screenplay/#more-345286

From the article on the movie whistleblower:

And by shifting the focus of the movie to &#8220;America is the worst and the American military in all its forms is the darkest force since Darth Vader,&#8221; the plot of _The Whistleblower_ loses its importance and passion because of the failure to address the cause of sex slavery and its real culprits and turns into a comic feminist rendition of Matt Damon&#8217;s wet dream fantasy _Bourne_ movies.
In the attempt to quench a leftist thirst for putting down the military, _The Whistleblower_ like its ilk of naïve but dangerous political movies, sacrifices the real issue of sex trafficking like a virgin to a persistent dragon of propaganda.
On a more tragic note, the creators of _The Whistleblower_ indirectly (or, perhaps, directly) abuse children by using them for their political purposes. Letting the real culprits off the hook and chasing the American military contractors instead, proves that the creators are not really concerned about sex slavery as much as they think they are but simply use the rape of children as a platform to denigrate American military. Otherwise they would deal with real statistics that shows the American peacekeeping force as the least involved in the debauchery and abuse of all the UN peacekeeping nations worldwide.
-------------------------------

A MORE ACCURATE PORTRAYAL:

A simple research such as the one contacted by _William Norman Grigg in his article *&#8220;*_*Beasts in Blue Berets&#8217;*_ (published in The New American with some references to similar expositions in the Village Voice*) *_will reveal shocking abuses, for example, of Belgian UN peacekeepers in Somalia who fried a young boy for stealing food and a Belgian _Het Laatste Nieuws newspaper_ rewarded with a bomb threat (_in Belgium_) for breaking the undesired news.
The research will also reveal disturbing accounts of Italian troops torturing and abusing Somalis and a 46-page report documenting that &#8220;the criminal events were not just the result of &#8216;rotten apples&#8217; that you may find in any structure, but were rather the consequence of a stretched line of command and amused compliance toward such high jinks by some junior officers.&#8221;

Then, there are 47 Canadian UN troops who served in Bosnia, _yes in Bosnia_, and were accused of &#8220;drunkenness, sex, black marketeering and patient abuse at a mental hospital they were guarding.&#8221;  _The Whistleblower_ is a German-Canadian co-production so where is the Canadian self criticism of this outrageous case? All you get about other UN troop abuses in the screenplay of _The Whistleblower_ is a throwaway line that ends with the protatgonist telling the audience Americans aren&#8217;t legally accounable for anything they do.
No, Kathy, they _are _accountable and interestingly they proportionally commit less abuse than any other participant country as evidence after evidence will show if you only bother looking at it, instead of listening to your boyfriend!
Many international humanitarian observers and Pentagon officials note that such problems (prostitution, sex trafficking, narco-business) are predictable, given that &#8220;the international police task force [in Bosnia] is a compendium of people from diverse countries with different degrees of professionalism and training and different backgrounds in operations and ethics&#8221;.  This sounds like _the real_ problem, doesn&#8217;t it?
Now, why the creators of _The Whistleblower_ chose to go after the least guilty and by doing so let the real culprit slip away? Isn&#8217;t this against any investigative logic?
----------------------------------------

THE CREATORS OF THIS MOVIE SACRIFICE ACCURACY TO TRASHING THE U.S.


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## Tez3 (Jul 18, 2011)

Oh dear, how sad, never mind.


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## elder999 (Jul 18, 2011)

billcihak said:


> THE CREATORS OF THIS MOVIE SACRIFICE ACCURACY TO TRASHING THE U.S.




You are aware that this movie is based on the book written by a Nebraska police officer who worked in Bosnia?
Kathryn Bolkovac? 

billi, billi, billi


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## billc (Jul 18, 2011)

You mean, like the part in the review where it states she was a nebraska police officer working in bosnia?


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## elder999 (Jul 18, 2011)

billcihak said:


> You mean, like the part in the review where it states she was a nebraska police officer working in bosnia?



yeah, working for Dynacorp, the military contractor-you know, *the real villain in the real story*.


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## billc (Jul 18, 2011)

Her story, and maybe not the ultimate real villain.  the united nations is rife with sex scandals and not one movie.  The U.N. sex scandals aren't just in bosnia but world wide, a much bigger story and a much bigger human tragedy, and nothing from hollywood.


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## billc (Jul 18, 2011)

We have yet to see how the actual movie will play out but the story actually covers several countries, not just the U.S.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/jul/29/unitednations

From the article and the author Kathryn Bolkovac:

She said: 'When I started collecting evidence from the victims of sex trafficking it was clear that a number of UN officers were involved from several countries, including quite a few from Britain. I was shocked, appalled and disgusted. They were supposed to be over there to help, but they were committing crimes themselves. When I told the supervisors they didn't want to know.'
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AND YET, FROM THIS EARLY PEAK AT THE MOVIE, THE U.S. IS THE MAJOR VILLIAN...HMMMM...
------------------

HMMMM....

She claims she was 'appalled' to find that many of her fellow officers were involved. She was fired by the British company after amassing evidence that UN police were taking part in the trafficking of young women from eastern Europe as sex slaves.
------------------

WHAT DOES IT MEAN, "SHE WAS FIRED BY THE BRITISH COMPANY..."


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## elder999 (Jul 18, 2011)

billcihak said:


> WHAT DOES IT MEAN, "SHE WAS FIRED BY THE BRITISH COMPANY..."



Why, absolutely nothing: 



> *DynCorp International* (
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Listen to idiots. Believe idiots. Quote idiots.

Sound like.........


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## billc (Jul 18, 2011)

from the article:

A former United Nations police officer is suing a British security firm over claims that it covered up the involvement of her fellow officers in sex crimes and prostitution rackets in the Balkans.Kathryn Bolkovac, an American policewoman, was hired by DynCorp Aerospace in Aldershot for a UN post aimed at cracking down on sexual abuse and forced prostitution in Bosnia.

DynCorp sacked her, claiming she had falsified time sheets, a charge she denies. Last month she filed her case at Southampton employment tribunal alleging wrongful dismissal and sexual discrimination against DynCorp, the British subsidiary of the US company DynCorp Inc.
DynCorp has the contract to provide police officers for the 2,100-member UN international police task force in Bosnia which was created to help restore law and order after the civil war.
Bolkovac has also filed a case against DynCorp under Britain's new Public Interest Disclosure Act designed to protect whistleblowers.
As well as reporting that her fellow officers regularly went to brothels, she also investigated allegations that an American police officer hired by DynCorp had bought a woman for $1,000.

DynCorp, the British subsidiary of the US company DynCorp Inc.


Where is the american part of that...perhaps the movie should focus on Britain rather than the U.S. since it seems most of the action is taking place against the BRITISH subsidiary.


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## elder999 (Jul 18, 2011)

billcihak said:


> from the article:
> 
> A former United Nations police officer is suing a British security firm over claims that it covered up the involvement of her fellow officers in sex crimes and prostitution rackets in the Balkans.Kathryn Bolkovac, an American policewoman, was hired by DynCorp Aerospace in Aldershot for a UN post aimed at cracking down on sexual abuse and forced prostitution in Bosnia.
> 
> ...



*Dyncorp Aerospace*, a wholly owned division of Dyncorp International, a U.S. company headquartered in the U.S., as I said in my previous post.

_Quote idiots. Believe idiots. *Sound like? *_:lfao:


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## billc (Jul 18, 2011)

DynCorp, the British subsidiary of the US company DynCorp Inc.

you were saying?


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## billc (Jul 18, 2011)

It all goes to my point.  She works for the brits. and the movie is about the americans...wow,  how does that work...


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## elder999 (Jul 18, 2011)

You wouldn't say that if she worked for Ford....._sounds like._ :lfao:

That's what I'll call you from now on, billi: "*sounds like*"


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## elder999 (Jul 18, 2011)

billcihak said:


> It all goes to my point. She works for the brits. and the movie is about the americans...wow, how does that work...



Neither you, nor Mr. Kochar have a point at all.

Firstly, he and you are aiming at "Liberal Hollywood," for making an "anti-American" movie. A movie based on her book. A book about events in her life: she found that employees of Dyncorp and other U.N. peacekeepers were engaged in sex-traffickiing in Bosnia, she reported it, and was demoted and fired for it.

Fired by an *American corporation,* although she worked and was paid (in U.S. $$$$) out of *their* British branch. (Please note, this is the *fact* of the situation-your apparent ignorance of overseas corporate structures is forgivable. It wasn't the "Brits" that did anything to her, it wasn't "the brits" she worked for, it was an *American corporation* that happens to have a _branch_ in Great Britain....)

She sued, in British court, and won. 

That's what the movies about-that an *American corporation* did not respond properly to a whistleblower's reports, and treated said whistleblower unfairly, in violation of British *and* American law-and she won. Dyncorp, btw, fired those men in her report, even as they were firing her, though none of them has ever been prosecuted because they have immunity from prosecution in Bosnia. 

So, to recap-an *American* woman reports malfeasance to her *American* employers, is unfairly demoted and fired-takes her former employers to court, and wins.

_Sounds like_ a pretty _*pro*_* American* story to me. :lfao:

In any case, if one wants to allege an element of anti-Americanism, then put the blame strictly where it lies-with the woman who wrote the book.


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## Tez3 (Jul 19, 2011)

billcihak said:


> from the article:
> 
> A former United Nations police officer is suing a British security firm over claims that it covered up the involvement of her fellow officers in sex crimes and prostitution rackets in the Balkans.Kathryn Bolkovac, an American policewoman, was hired by DynCorp Aerospace in Aldershot for a UN post aimed at cracking down on sexual abuse and forced prostitution in Bosnia.
> 
> ...





Well you have got your facts mixed up there, she is *not* suing the company, she's making a claim to an Employment Tribunal as it says for wrongful dismissal and sexual discrimination which the Tribunal can decide on, it can't decide on anything else. She could well lose though and end up paying costs. 
An Employment Tribunal's findings are legally binding but are considered mediation rather than judgements, they will only look at the reason the company gave for dismissing her and they will only look at her claim on discrimination, they won't look at anything else because that's out of their remit.

Btw the *new* Public Disclosure Act?  it came in force in 1999.


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## billc (Jul 20, 2011)

The reviews of Captain America are beginning to come out, here is a look at one of them by John Nolte...

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/jjmnolte/2011/07/20/hollywood-reporter-captain-america-sticks-to-simplistic-patriotic-origins/

From the article:

Why does the Hollywood Reporter say this as though it&#8217;s a bad thing&#8230;?Sticking to its simplistic, patriotic origins, where a muscular red, white and blue GI slugging *Adolf Hitler* in the jaw is all that&#8217;s required, _Captain America _trafficks in red-blooded heroes, dastardly villains, classy dames and war-weary military officers.​With the MSM , patriotism is always &#8220;simplistic&#8221; and/or &#8220;jingoistic.&#8221; You never read reviews that say, &#8220;simplistically angsty&#8221; or &#8220;simplistically brooding&#8221; or &#8220;simplistically dark.&#8221;
Yesterday in the comments, someone quoted someone who said something the effect of &#8220;angst is much easier to write than nobility.&#8221; And this is very, very true. The same is true with sincerity over irony and inspirational over nihilism...

t&#8217;s just a fact that not coming off as corny when you want to inspire and appeal to the better nature of the human spirit through sincerity, is extremely difficult and requires real skill in the departments of writing, acting and directing. All this angsty brooding, however, requires little skill and no courage of any kind to attempt.
The same goes for patriotism. You can certainly overdo love of country in a way that makes your audience cringe. But to pull it off in a way that inspires and works takes no small amount of talent. On the other hand, irreverence towards the flag  requires no skill whatsoever.
As an actor or writer, which do you think would be most difficult to pull off successfully: A moment where your character throws out a mocking salute towards the American flag or a moment where your character stops and salutes the flag with complete sincerity.


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## billc (Jul 20, 2011)

From the hollywood reporter review of Captain America I have to wonder, has enough time passed that even the fight against Nazi Germany is becomming the target of P.C. doubt and confusion.  Here is the specific part from the review...
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Sticking to its simplistic, patriotic origins, where a muscular red, white and blue GI slugging*Adolf Hitler* in the jaw is all thats required, _Captain America _trafficks in red-blooded heroes, dastardly villains, classy dames and war-weary military officers. There is no ambiguity here. Nor does any superhero question his powers. No, sir, not in this war and not with these determined heroes.
------------------------

I don't know, was there ambiguity to the fight against the nazis?  Perhaps the WW2 generation were wrong about the nazis.  Perhaps the nazis were misunderstood and should have been examined as to their troubled youths and difficult upbringing.  I just began watching WW2 in color on netflix.  At the beginning of the documentary they show the murder of civillians by the nazis.  The actual execution by firing squad and the hanging of random civillians grabbed off of the street.  I think that the reviewer of the film might want to review their history  a little more in detail.  I have seen the beginning of the P.C. examination of the war in the Pacific through the comments of Tom Hanks during his press tour for the HBO series about the pacific theater.  Who would have thought that silliness might actually be aplied to the nazis.  I know, some out there will say, you are taking it too seriously.  No, not really.  This is where the whole thing starts.  In another 10-20 years the nazis will probably get their first sympathetic movie and then the whole thing will take off.  The P.C. view of history needs to be countered.


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## elder999 (Jul 20, 2011)

billcihak said:


> From the hollywood reporter review of Captain America I have to wonder, has enough time passed that even the fight against Nazi Germany is becomming the target of P.C. doubt and confusion. Here is the specific part from the review...
> *<snip!>*
> 
> I don't know, was there ambiguity to the fight against the nazis?
> ...




I think the _Germans_ have gotten  few sympathetic movies, as have anti-Hitler Nazis, but the point that I really want to make is that perhaps you're reading far too much into the review. Isn't it possible that this:



> *There is no ambiguity here*. Nor does any superhero question his powers. *No, sir, not in this war and not with these determined heroes*



should be taken at face value? That there is no ambiguity, and none is needed.


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## billc (Jul 20, 2011)

It is possible, Elder, but I think the phrasing of this section of the review is the key.  The author uses the word "simplisitc," to begin the section and that is not used as a compliment.  I think a different word choice here would make your point, but that word choice I think tilts toward my point.  I could be wrong, but I don't think so.


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## billc (Jul 20, 2011)

I think if you cut out the word "simplistic," and just had "sticking to it's patriotic origins..." it would be more to what you are saying.


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## elder999 (Jul 20, 2011)

billcihak said:


> I think if you cut out the word "simplistic," and just had "sticking to it's patriotic origins..." it would be more to what you are saying.



And now you're underthinking it. Have you ever seen any WWII era _Captain America_ comic books? "Simplistic" is the word one applies to a _simpler time_...


unless you're looking to satisfy some sort of agenda, of course...:lfao:


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## billc (Jul 20, 2011)

Now on to the Planet of the apes:

From John Nolte...

*FOUR-MINUTES FROM RISE OF THE APES RELEASED*​The monkey still looks phony and please take a moment to notice that the bully in the clip has an American flag hanging from his house.
Yeah, Hollywoods like that.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 20, 2011)

My wife and I just watched Battle LA on Pay per view over the weekend. It cost us like $5.00. Thank the gods we didn't see that dreck in the movie theater for $12 each. awful, awful film. It was so determined to make the US Marines look like heroes that it just came off like a really bad propaganda bit.  It was downright embarrassing.  Even tho the bad guys were aliens invading from outer space, and they had invaded the entire planet so it was really a global problem, the portrayal of the Marines fighting to defend LA just made me want to puke. 

Was that a "patriotic" or "pro-American" film? I dunno. To me it was just stupid.


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## billc (Jul 20, 2011)

Hmmm...scratch flying crane off list for free tickets to Captain America...


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## Flying Crane (Jul 20, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Hmmm...scratch flying crane off list for free tickets to Captain America...



ya might need to pay me to see that movie.  Even then the loss of two hours of my life might not be worth it.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Jul 20, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> My wife and I just watched Battle LA on Pay per view over the weekend. It cost us like $5.00. Thank the gods we didn't see that dreck in the movie theater for $12 each. awful, awful film. It was so determined to make the US Marines look like heroes that it just came off like a really bad propaganda bit. It was downright embarrassing. Even tho the bad guys were aliens invading from outer space, and they had invaded the entire planet so it was really a global problem, the portrayal of the Marines fighting to defend LA just made me want to puke.
> 
> Was that a "patriotic" or "pro-American" film? I dunno. To me it was just stupid.



I actually enjoyed Battle: LA.  It was what it claimed to be, a high-adrenaline, high-budget action flick.  And also watching a review of it before hand, it was clear that it was more of a war movie about urban warfare than an alien invasion film.  A few scenes in teh build-up to conflict underscored how the invading aliens' tactics were textbook invasions typical of any army. Whether that's actually true or accurate, you'd have to ask an actual military tactician, I personally don't know.  

I honestly can't say whether it was pro-American or patriotic, but it was certainly pro-soldier.  The script was predictable but it could have been worse.  Definitely not to the level of propoganda though.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 20, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Now on to the Planet of the apes:
> 
> From John Nolte...
> 
> ...



Or is it that under-evolved micro-brains are like that?

We get the same sort over here - they're called the BNP and they hang the Cross of St. George off their homes and pretend they're patriots.  Same deal, different flag.  A lot of evil gets drapped in our flags; it's up to the rest of us not to stand for the evil whilst still being proud of our countries (and trying to make sure that our countries are worth being proud of).


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## granfire (Jul 20, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> ya might need to pay me to see that movie.  Even then the loss of two hours of my life might not be worth it.



I suppose going with billi can do that to you....but there are other people you can spend time in a dark room with for two hours...

%-}


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## Carol (Jul 20, 2011)

I'd rather spend two hours in a dark room with someone than go see most of the stuff being made


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## billc (Jul 21, 2011)

Hmmm...you don't really know what it would be like to spend two hours with me in a dark room...


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## Carol (Jul 21, 2011)

Damn skippy.  

Nor do you.  Do we break out the rattan and the blades?  :lol:


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## billc (Jul 22, 2011)

A conservative review of "Captain America: The First Avenger,"...

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/m...lets-hear-it-for-captain-america/#more-496428

from the review:

And yet the point is that Rogers is no _super_hero. &#8220;What makes you so special?&#8221; the Red Skull wonders about his unflinching adversary. &#8220;Nothing,&#8221; Cap replies. &#8220;I&#8217;m just a kid from Brooklyn.&#8221; In other words, I&#8217;m just an ordinary American &#8211; _we&#8217;re all like this_, or at least all capable of this. And indeed, Cap&#8217;s not the only hero here. Every American soldier in the film &#8211; and yes, as Marlow notes, they come in all colors &#8211; is a rip-roaring, hard-drinking, Nazi-***-kicking hero in his own right. One of the most stirring moments in the film comes when Captain America comes over the horizon leading 400 escaped American POWs, all of whom fought their way out alongside Cap, every one of them marching back to camp with head held high and ready to go back into action. There may not be any flags visible in that scene, but it speaks volumes about American soldiers and the undeniable, indomitable American spirit.
-------------------------------------------------------------

The movie may still stink, but we'll see.

Just for kicks, check out reviews from more liberal critics and see where they are different.  It might be enlightening.


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