# Questions on knife defence



## Streetfigher2006 (Nov 13, 2006)

Hey guys,
Thank all of you that participated in my tai chi discussion not long ago. I will training at the Chen Village in 6 months time. I will be there for a year. I will post a trip report and put some pics on the board as I go through the trip. I am not sure if they have internet at the village but I will do my best to update you on what's happening in China.

OK, now for my question. Now long ago my kickboxing teacher was teaching the class knife defence moves. Now I don't want to be critical of the guy because he is a good teacher. But some of the moves they were doing in class were just not realistic. I mean the attacker was practially giving himself to the defender to do what he wants with him. It's hilarilous how some people make out the attacker is a complete dummy. This is one reason I have decided to quit kickboxing. I am not trying to insult people doing kickboxing, but KC is more sport then street defence to be honest. This is my opinion. This is the reason I have decided to try Wing Chun instead. Anyway this has nothing to do with the question.

After class had ended I sat in my room thinking about how to do realistic knife defence in the event you can't run. It seems most knife attackers, even the amateurs will not show the knife to you before attempting to attack you with it. So running wouldn't help you all the time. I thought of buying armoured vests/stab proof vests and carrying a walking stick to knock the **** out of the attacker. Ofcourse I am thinking of defence in the event you can't run. I think most of us should be able to run 90% of the time if shown the knife but our egos will prevent us from doing the smart thing. There are some of us though they may get caught because of an injury or something and that will prevent us from running.

Has anyone here done knife defence in class?
Has anyone been confronted before with a knife attacker? if yes what was your move?
Is there any decent art that teaches good effective knife defence. I have seen Kali, escrima and arnis(I think this is how it's spelt). I am not sure how realistic and how useful it is.

THanks guys in anticipation of your reply.

I hope to get losts of replies to the question.


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## Mcura (Nov 13, 2006)

You pose a very good question.

I've had the opportunity to play with knife defences with some good instructors.  By "play", I mean stabs and cuts with safety weapons (padded or rubber knives, and in one case red markers) and face masks.  In just about every chance, I got "killed" pretty badly, but I will say that in every successive class it took a slightly longer time for me to "die". Granted, it was measured in tenths of a second, but it still took longer.

If you've never actually played in the FMA, give it a chance.  There's a reason why so many folks in the military and police, as well as private citizens, have taken to these arts.  Having said that, there are a lot of instructors out there that aren't necessarily FMA-specific that have a lot to offer in the way of instruction.  In the US and Canada, these usually take the form of military-derived systems such as Krav Maga, classic Marine and Army manuals, and Systema.    Having said that, the Chinese arts are well represented in the areas of knife and gun defence.  For example, Sifu Lo Man Kam has written a manual for the Taiwan National Police that uses Wing Chun as a basis to combat weapons and common thug tactics like haymaker punches.

For reading about the concepts and the mindset behind knife-defence, I'd suggest the writings of Marc "Animal" Macyoung, James Keating, and Kelly Worden.  These gentlemen rightly treat knife defence as the serious matter it is (as well as the use of a knife in these situations).  They've seen the reality of knives, and encourage using them only for the highest purposes of defending yourself and your family.  They also teach, and I find this very important, when not to use the blade.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/
http://www.jamesakeating.com/
http://www.kellyworden.com/


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## MJS (Nov 13, 2006)

Streetfigher2006 said:


> Hey guys,
> Thank all of you that participated in my tai chi discussion not long ago. I will training at the Chen Village in 6 months time. I will be there for a year. I will post a trip report and put some pics on the board as I go through the trip. I am not sure if they have internet at the village but I will do my best to update you on what's happening in China.
> 
> OK, now for my question. Now long ago my kickboxing teacher was teaching the class knife defence moves. Now I don't want to be critical of the guy because he is a good teacher. But some of the moves they were doing in class were just not realistic. I mean the attacker was practially giving himself to the defender to do what he wants with him. It's hilarilous how some people make out the attacker is a complete dummy. This is one reason I have decided to quit kickboxing. I am not trying to insult people doing kickboxing, but KC is more sport then street defence to be honest. This is my opinion. This is the reason I have decided to try Wing Chun instead. Anyway this has nothing to do with the question.
> ...


 
If someone trains for SD, then that is how the training needs to be geared.  Resistance needs to be given on the attackers part.  Of course running is important, but having some defenseive moves is important as well.  A marker, chalk or a no lie blade, are all excellent training tools.  I do knife work in my Kenpo class as well as my Arnis class.

The FMAs, IMHO, are an excellent source if you're looking for weapon defense.  If there is a school nearby, it would be a good idea to check it out.  

There are a few threads in the General SD section that discuss knife defense.  There are a few video clips posted there as well.

Mike


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## bydand (Nov 13, 2006)

Yes we do a bit of knife defense in our school.  It was one of the things that drew me to the particular school because I had seen it other places, and like you were not impressed.  This time it was very realisticly set-up and the instructor didn't wave the knife around like it was a sparkler on the 4th of July.  

Secondmajor question, yes I have had 2 instances where someone has pulled a blade and there was no way out.  1st one was just stupid luck on my part - The guy did have it out and showing when he stepped out of the shadows, I looked at the guy and calmly told him if he didn't put it away I was going to take it away and shove it up his rear.  Guess he belived me, because he stuffed it in his jacket pocket and took off the other way.  Second time I was downstate Maine in the Portland area when same thing happened.  Guy stepped around the corner with a hunting knife and told me to hand over my wallet, I reached for the back pocket and came up with a stub nosed .357 instead of my wallet, Had him empty his pockets down the sewer drain then drop his knife down as well.  

Have never had to hand-to-hand it with someone with a knife thank God!  Nobody is a winner in those situations because 99% of the time, you are going to get cut.


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## searcher (Nov 13, 2006)

MJS said:


> The FMAs, IMHO, are an excellent source if you're looking for weapon defense. If there is a school nearby, it would be a good idea to check it out.
> 
> Mike


 
On the money!!!   You should check into some FMA seminars.    You will be very happy, IMO.


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## arnisador (Nov 13, 2006)

Streetfigher2006 said:


> Is there any decent art that teaches good effective knife defence. I have seen Kali, escrima and arnis(I think this is how it's spelt). I am not sure how realistic and how useful it is.



In my biased opinion, the FMAs (and Indonesian martial arts) are among your best bets for this. They raise your odds of surviving...slightly. Some of the RBSD stuff is good too (and oten FMA-influenced where knives are concerned). But a knife is a _much _more dangerous weapon than people realize, and very hard to deal with in a situation where there is a determined attacker.

While gun attacks are more common than knife attacks in the U.S., knife attacks are a reality; the U.K. is going to great lengths to control knife crime.


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## MJS (Nov 13, 2006)

bydand said:


> Secondmajor question, yes I have had 2 instances where someone has pulled a blade and there was no way out. 1st one was just stupid luck on my part - The guy did have it out and showing when he stepped out of the shadows, I looked at the guy and calmly told him if he didn't put it away I was going to take it away and shove it up his rear. Guess he belived me, because he stuffed it in his jacket pocket and took off the other way. Second time I was downstate Maine in the Portland area when same thing happened. Guy stepped around the corner with a hunting knife and told me to hand over my wallet, I reached for the back pocket and came up with a stub nosed .357 instead of my wallet, Had him empty his pockets down the sewer drain then drop his knife down as well.


 
Glad everything turned out well for you.  I bet the look on that guys face was priceless when you pulled out the gun.  

Mike


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## Streetfigher2006 (Nov 13, 2006)

Well good for you bydand. Unfortunately for us living in London we aren't allowed to walk around carrying guns because the queen says so.


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## bydand (Nov 13, 2006)

It was.  But not nearly as shocked as when I made him empty his pockets down the storm drain.  That was funny!


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## Bigshadow (Nov 13, 2006)

bydand said:


> It was.  But not nearly as shocked as when I made him empty his pockets down the storm drain.  That was funny!



That was impressive!


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## Streetfigher2006 (Nov 13, 2006)

how do you guys feel about body armours?

Also how about premptive strikes?


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## MJS (Nov 13, 2006)

Streetfigher2006 said:


> how do you guys feel about body armours?


 
Redman suits or something similar are IMO very good.  I use them on a regular basis with my Kenpo inst.



> Also how about premptive strikes?


 
Pre-emptive strikes are good IMO.  There have been some past threads on here, regarding their use.  Personally, if its apparent that a physical confrontation is unavoidable, and it seems like the attacker is going to strike you, and you're exhausted all other options, I'm all for a pre-empt.  I'd rather not wait until his strike is already in motion, before I act.

Mike


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## Blindside (Nov 13, 2006)

Streetfigher2006 said:


> how do you guys feel about body armours?
> 
> Also how about premptive strikes?


 
Body armor as in stab-proof vests and the like?  For most people it just isn't practical, knife crime just isn't that likely to warrent it.  Some proffessions (correction officers come to mind) it would be a must, but not for most civilians.

Pre-emptive?  Pre-empt what?  The drawing of the knife?  Them attacking with you with the knife?  In both cases, I would say yes, but know that most blade arts teach just as much defense with the blade as offense.  This assumes to are training for the competant attacker, as you indicated on your first post.

Lamont


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## Streetfigher2006 (Nov 13, 2006)

Thanks for the answers guys. I have looked in the local papers and checked the yellow pages and phone books and there isn't a knife fighting art in sight. The only other arts in the area that teach any form of MA apart from the kickboxing I am learning is a Wing chun class, A Taijutsu class, A Northern Eagle claw king fu class (arrogant teacher), A systema class and a Krav maga class.


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## searcher (Nov 13, 2006)

The Krav Maga class should cover knife defense and I am pretty sure that the Systema should also.


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## Streetfigher2006 (Nov 13, 2006)

How effective is systema and krav maga. I mean is it a good enough martial art that will help against getting carved like a thanksgiving turkey?


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## MJS (Nov 13, 2006)

Streetfigher2006 said:


> How effective is systema and krav maga. I mean is it a good enough martial art that will help against getting carved like a thanksgiving turkey?


 
I can't speak for Systema, but I can offer a little on KM.  Overall, I think that they have some good ideas regarding their knife work.  I like the idea of the simultaneous block/counter strike.  I've been doing the FMAs for a while, so I tend to lean towards those when it comes to weapons, but if there are no schools in your area, I'd check out the KM school.

Mike


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## KenpoTex (Nov 13, 2006)

You ought to do a search for both Geoff Thompson and Dennis Martin.  I'm not sure where exactly in that area their studios are but they would both be awesome to train with.  Their stuff has more of a combatives flavor as opposed to TMA.


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## still learning (Nov 14, 2006)

Hello, You will need to add the adrenline factor.  Hard to practice for this "panic part"

In most real knife attacks...you will get cut and stab....attacker is going to slice you quickly and in places you do not expect..before going into the killling zone.

Best thing is use your shirt,jacket,belt,shoes,wallet for some protection and creating distance, Off course (anything around you that you can pick-up to use as a weapon or shield).  TRY TO ESCAPE AND RUN FASTER THAN ATTACKER.

To go  to one on one?  UM?   You can always get lucky.

We practice alot of different knife defense...but when the other person makes for real...we end up getting cut,(100%) of the time. 

Now if the attacker is NOT train for knife fighting...you may have a chance to disarm and give the knife back (place anywhere in the body).

Guns and bats works most times against a knife attacker....using your techniques that you learn in class...UM?  Odds will be in the attacker flavor....try this with your friends...have your friend (hold a make believe knife) and have them try to attack you...offer them $5 dollars if they can touch you.  BE ready to pay everytime? (no running away)

A knife is a weapon anyone can carry, be hidden until the moment of the attack, and can be use many times too slice,cut,stab,(C-cuts),poke, and thrown.  

We use our knife to cut meats and vegatable's, and when camping (forget can opener), we use the knife to open chili cans at the beach.

Other uses of Knife?  what is your? ............Aloha


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## The Lorax (Nov 14, 2006)

Body armor really isnt practical for most people.  It's hot, heavy, and expensive.  

We do some knife training in Aikido, and it works pretty well.  I used it once against a girl who was drugged up and threatening people.  Things would have been different if she was really trying to hurt me instead of just trying to get me to let her keep the knife.  But I felt obligated to take it from her since she got it from me, and I'd feel responsible if anyone else got hurt.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 14, 2006)

Streetfigher2006 said:


> Hey guys,
> Thank all of you that participated in my tai chi discussion not long ago. I will training at the Chen Village in 6 months time. I will be there for a year. I will post a trip report and put some pics on the board as I go through the trip. I am not sure if they have internet at the village but I will do my best to update you on what's happening in China.
> 
> OK, now for my question. Now long ago my kickboxing teacher was teaching the class knife defence moves. Now I don't want to be critical of the guy because he is a good teacher. But some of the moves they were doing in class were just not realistic. I mean the attacker was practially giving himself to the defender to do what he wants with him. It's hilarilous how some people make out the attacker is a complete dummy. This is one reason I have decided to quit kickboxing. I am not trying to insult people doing kickboxing, but KC is more sport then street defence to be honest. This is my opinion. This is the reason I have decided to try Wing Chun instead. Anyway this has nothing to do with the question.
> ...


You can what if any instruction to death. You have to learn to walk before you can run. Some knife attacks are done in the heat of passion and the aren't hiding a thing. If your kick boxing intructor gives you a few tips, it is no reason to quit. Its kick boxing for God's sake. At least quit for legitamate reasons.
Sean


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## searcher (Nov 14, 2006)

Streetfigher2006 said:


> How effective is systema and krav maga. I mean is it a good enough martial art that will help against getting carved like a thanksgiving turkey?


 

It wil surely help.   I think you should understand that if you get into a knife fight/defense situation, you WILL get cut.   If you think you will not get cut then you have been watching to much television.    

Krav Maga, just like LOTAR and Hisardut, is combat tested.


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## dok (Nov 15, 2006)

If you go for Krav Maga don't expect to learn useful knife defences in the most immediate future.  Level 1 (which lasts anywhere from a couple weeks to a couple months, depending) covers 'some' knife defences, but nothing revolutionary.  I'm talking 'outside' attacks - like the infamous overhead-arc-underhand-stab 

Krav Maga 'is', however, designed solely and primarily as a self defence system - with a particular focus on multiple attackers.  If thats what you're looking for, go for it.  I personally think its a lot of fun.  You may find there's quite a bit of overlap with kickboxing at first.

speaking of knife defence - I couldnt resist  






classic clip


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## crushing (Nov 15, 2006)

We cover knife defenses, but I have never had to use it.  My teenage son has though.  It wasn't serious incident.  A friend of his pulled one of those little plastic picnic knifes on him as a joke and my son used one of the knife defenses to quickly stab the kid in the side with the knife while disarming him.  Well, not really stab, the flimsy little plastic knife easily broke in half.

Anyway, it made a pretty big impression on the friend and a couple others (also teens) that witnessed it.  Granted, it wasn't a real attack and not at all representative of a street situation.


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## Brad Dunne (Nov 15, 2006)

Streetfighter, being in the UK, perhaps you may know. Didn't the police have some special training in dealing with knife assualts and supposedly their injury rate went why down after this training. Tony Blauer I think was the instructor. You should be able to find some information that may help you, if you can locate his training manual. Hope this helps........


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## stabpunch (Dec 18, 2006)

There is heaps of good info here. I feel that the traditional styles of knife and stick fighting focus on the fact that the other person will be doing the same things. They do provide you with exposure and concepts that are effective and reasonable. You could argue merits all day, technique personal skills enviro factors etc.

If you are seriously concerned with a reality of knife attack. Put on old clothes get some marker pens and ask a friend to draw on you violently. If the person is untrained they will be less predictable and if they can take on the guise of aggression, very hard not to get cut.

Unfortunatley the traditional arts look at the stick/knife fight as duelling. Not that it is fruitless as i say you can learn solid skills and techniques. Some of which are pratical some of which are flashy and showy. 

You could never say that one system has the answer. Cross training is alway my suggestion. 

If you do not question your style you won't find the questions it does not/cannot answer.


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## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2006)

Streetfighter, get yourself off to train with Mo Teague, he's a great guy and a very good instructor. His classes will cover what you want.
http://www.worldcombatarts.co.uk/index.html


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## pankration (Jan 14, 2007)

I was once involved in a street fight that quickly escalated into a crisis. The person I was battling with ran off and came back with two butcher knives, one in each hand. Until that moment I thought I was some king **** karate hero. But when I saw the knives in the hands of this screaming, hysterical maniac I realize there was no way I was going to disarm this man without risking serious injury or even death. I had nowhere to go so I braced myself for the worst. We started screaming at each other and even though I was ready to piss myself, I must have presented a good front because he backed off then ran. Thank god.

If confronted with a knife find something, anything. You need a weapon be it a snub nosed revolver, baseball bat or a rolled up magazine. Knife attacks are more effective close in than a gun so you need any edge you can get. I studied knife fighting and self-defense for years but at crunch time I gave myself little chance of transferring the dojo skills to the street.


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## Steel Tiger (Jan 15, 2007)

The knife is one of the five weapons that we use.  Much of our training is actually in attacking with the knife.  When it comes to defence it is much easier to comprehend what you are supposed to be doing if you know how the knife is used. 

The damn thing is blindingly fast and you will get cut. 

Your main objective is to minimise damage and get the hell out of there!


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## samurai69 (Jan 15, 2007)

if based in london, then there are a few good SD/Combatives instructors close by.....or they have instructors close by

*try Dave Turton, Lee morrison, Den Martin, Mick Coup*

*all have some great knife defence within their trainings..........and all UK based*


the trouble is, IMO, now the attacker is more likely to stick you first then steal your money, where as in the old days as far as muggings went, the knife was used as a threat.............i had a knife held to my throat once, managed to talk the guy down and leave..........but i dont think there was the same threat there as now when i would have been sticked with the knife before even having a chance to talk


.


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## JerryL (Jan 15, 2007)

I considered a couple of responses to the question on a local Systema school. Then I realize that, on top of my rather verbose opinion on systema-vs-knife as a sole art, it's going to vary heavily by instructor.

Go down to the inficidual schools and ask. Watch or participate in a knife and anti-knife workshop / class. Without knowing the individual school, we can't tell you too much. Go see.


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## tuturuhan (Jan 27, 2007)

Good question.  Well, it's not like the movies where everything is telegraphed.  Please take a lot at the following from a seminar I taught in Italy:






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi6H7q6b_YU&mode=user&search=

I reply only because you seem to be developing an eye for what is real self defense vs. sport vs. hype.  Let me know what you think.

Tuhan Jospeh T. Oliva Arriola
Grandmaster of the Kamatuuran School of Kalijin


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## Cruentus (Jan 28, 2007)

Streetfigher2006 said:


> How effective is systema and krav maga. I mean is it a good enough martial art that will help against getting carved like a thanksgiving turkey?


 
News flash: No martial art will be effective in getting you out of a knife encounter.

Martial arts and tactical programs will give you tools and techniques against knives. They are not all created equal, however, as some techniques are better then others. These are really only the tip of the iceburg, however.

What will get you out of a knife encounter will be superior tactics and winning mindset; this means a willingness to escalate things further then your opponent, and using any means necessary to create more trauma more quickly then your knife weilding attacker. That is of course, assuming that you used every strategy available to not get into a knife encounter in the first place.

That is it. There is no magic solution that any martial art will give you, nor is there any gaurantee that you won't get killed even if you do everything right...


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## tellner (Jan 29, 2007)

Against a knife only G-d, luck or skill will help you. You'll need at least two out of three.


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## redfang (Feb 12, 2007)

Regarding body armor, A lot of armor designed to resist a ballistic round is not designed to stop a knife/stabbing attack. The vest I wear at work does a good job resisting up to about a .45 cal round, but will do little against a stabbing attack.


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## Flatlander (Feb 12, 2007)

Streetfigher2006 said:


> OK, now for my question. Now long ago my kickboxing teacher was teaching the class knife defence moves. Now I don't want to be critical of the guy because he is a good teacher. But some of the moves they were doing in class were just not realistic. I mean the attacker was practially giving himself to the defender to do what he wants with him. It's hilarilous how some people make out the attacker is a complete dummy. This is one reason I have decided to quit kickboxing.


I just wanted to speak to this comment briefly.  

Blade skills, offensive and defensive, are no different than any other physical skills:  those who do not understand them need to begin with very basic concepts, and work their way through to the more intricate.  In my experience, a beginner needs to solidify some very basic skills and attributes before they're going to understand more advanced applications.  One of the results of this is that, to begin with, partner work needs to be very "big", very "unreal", and very "nobody attacks this way..."  Sorry, but that's just how it is.

As the student progresses, the patterns and attributes will begin to flow better, will fit into other patterns and arrangements, and will begin to "tighten up".  The patterns become finer, more intricate, and quicker.

At any rate, I can absolutely guarantee you that any respectable blade practitioner didn't start out looking so impressive in their skills.  They started out just like everyone else - training with unrealistic, big, slow movements, building their foundation, learning how bodies move and interact.  This is the way of things.  Progression follows effort, built upon a solid foundation of basics.


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