# New Tolkein book emerges!



## mrhnau (Apr 16, 2007)

Apparently a new Tolkein book is to be released  The title is "Children of Hurin". I need to go read the Silmarillion one of these days... Has anyone read any of the smaller Tolkein books that have been published? If so, which ones are your favorites?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 16, 2007)

I think the Children of Hurin tale has a very good potential to be an excellent book.  So I definately will be picking up one.  The Silmarillion is brutal reading but really gives you great background into Tolkien's world.  Hopefully his son was inspired and the new book will be up to the level of the Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings.


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## mrhnau (Apr 16, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I think the Children of Hurin tale has a very good potential to be an excellent book.  So I definately will be picking up one.  The Silmarillion is brutal reading but really gives you great background into Tolkien's world.  Hopefully his son was inspired and the new book will be up to the level of the Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings.


I don't think its his son's book, but from the JRR archives... It is rather odd they took this long to publish it though...

I had heard the Silmarillion was a very tough read..


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## crushing (Apr 16, 2007)

Looks interesting.  Of Tolkien's works I've only read The Hobbit and the LOR Trilogy.  Good luck reading the Silmarillion!  I tried it once and it was a very difficult read.  I don't think I even made it through all the 'so-n-so begat this dude, who begat that one which was involved in such-n-such'.  I was much younger then though.  Maybe I'll check it out again sometime.  If you are into the background and history of Middle Earth, it's probably the book to read.  I was just looking for a story.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 16, 2007)

From what I understand, this book (as with the Silmarillion) was reconstructed by Christopher based on prolific notes and outlines left by his father.  As for other books like this?  There are none.  The Sil is the closest to a cohesive book that Christopher has done.  Most of the rest of the histories are like collections.  CoH is a novel.

I'm both excited and apprehensive to read it.


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## exile (Apr 16, 2007)

mrhnau said:


> I don't think its his son's book, but from the JRR archives... It is rather odd they took this long to publish it though...
> 
> I had heard the Silmarillion was a very tough read..



The Silmarillion is nothing at all like _LoTR_; the characterization is relatively two dimensionalmore like what you find in a historical chronicle than in a novel; and that makes sense, given where the two `came from'. _LoTR_ is a heroic novel, drawing on an intricate (some might say chaotic!) mythology, which Tolkien had only partially worked out as he wrote; he continued throughout his life, apparently, to try and get it all worked out and consistent but there was so much of it, and it was constructed over such a long period, that all kinds of inconsistencies and loose ends were introduced that he then had to go back and fix, and things kept getting more elaborate.

Basically, as I understand it, _The Silmarillion_ grew out of that ongoing textual correction and development as Tolkien's own personal `reference book' for the mythological background of the _LoTR_ world. So it's pretty much reading six or seven hundred pages of fairly dry, extremely detailed history of a very elaborate world. And even so he kept changing his mind or discovering new problems, so there are all those _Tales..._ that Christopher T.  was editing and publishing. And I gather, from snooping around on Tolkien fan sites, that there are still a ton of unresolved textual problems. You should hear these people go on... you think CMA lineages are complicated? Try to figure out the true history of Galadrial and Celeborn! :lol:

A lot of people have this sense of melancholy about the way _LoTR_ ends, and they aren't ready to let JRRT's world go (this came up on an earlier Tolkien thread sometime last year, I recall); then they discover _The Silmarillion_ and get excited, thinking that it'll be more of the same. And then when they sit down to read it... boy, are they in for a shock! I'd be curious to know if _The Children of Hurin_ is more _Silmarillion_ish or more _LoTR_ish, but I suspect it's the former.


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## Skip Cooper (Apr 16, 2007)

I will find a nice home for a copy of the Children of Hurin. Right now, I have my eye on a leather bound issue of the LOTR on Amazon...just waiting for the price to be right. I still have the old set from my childhood, with the spines broken and pages falling out.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 16, 2007)

I dunno...while reading The sil was more like reading The Old Testament, I still enjoyed it immensely!

I'm looking forward to CoH (apprehensively or not), having read various forms of the poem, The Lay of the Children of Hurin, in one of the history volumes.  The thing about CoH is that JRR let it go and chose not to complete it; though, it was close.  There's going to have to be some of Christopher's work involved.  This will be the first I read of Christopher that is not academic.


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## exile (Apr 16, 2007)

OnlyAnEgg said:


> There's going to have to be some of Christopher's work involved.  This will be the first I read of Christopher that is not academic.



That's the thing... I'm not sure that CT has his father's genius. 

I'm gonna wait till I've heard from a few people who've read it...


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 16, 2007)

Not me, man.  I'm buying it first thing.

By 'some of Christopher's work', I do mean a little.  From what I've read in advance of publication, most of the story was written.  Christopher will be, predominatly, editing and fleshing out (in places) a novel rather than a reference work and that's the critical difference.


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## CoryKS (Apr 16, 2007)

JRR Tolkein is becoming the Tupac of fantasy literature.  He's produced more books dead than he did when he was alive.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 16, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> JRR Tolkein is becoming the Tupac of fantasy literature. He's produced more books dead than he did when he was alive.


 
Slightly unfair, I must say; as far as books go, at least.

I will admit to the estate whoring him by aligning with peter jackson; but, that's a whole 'nuther can of worms.


The books published since his death have enhanced his works, rather than profited by them.


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## stickarts (Apr 16, 2007)

I enjoyed The Hobbit, LOTR, The Silmarillion, and Unfinished Tales. I lost interest after that.
It started to seem like anything Tolkien even scibbled on a napkin during a lunch got published.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 16, 2007)

OnlyAnEgg said:


> I dunno...while reading The sil was more like reading The Old Testament, I still enjoyed it immensely!


 
An excellent analogy, *OaE* :tup:.

It took me a long time to actually finish the Silmarillion and I have to shamefacedly admit, despite my professional background in things historical, I'm in no hurry to read it again .

The parts dealing with the history of the Elves I could probably revisit (in fact I have read those more than once).  They're sad in one way as you see them in their raw 'youth' when they were even worse than humans for displaying the dark sides of intelligent nature.  On the other hand, there's also the uplifting message that, despite everything and all that was lost, they still managed to make it through to racial 'maturity'.

As to how the 'new' book will be, I'm content to withold speculation (other than releasing a idealistic frisson of glee that it _might_ turn out to be *really* good) and simply hop from one foot to the other in excited anticipation .


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## Bigshadow (Apr 16, 2007)

When I was young, I attempted to read Sil, but just couldn't get into it.  I remember reading a one of JRRT's short stories.  The title had "Hamm" or "Ham" in it.  In either case, I just couldn't get interested in it.  I think LOTR is the pinnacle of his work.


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 16, 2007)

OnlyAnEgg said:


> I dunno...while reading The sil was more like reading The Old Testament, I still enjoyed it immensely!
> 
> I'm looking forward to CoH (apprehensively or not), having read various forms of the poem, The Lay of the Children of Hurin, in one of the history volumes. The thing about CoH is that JRR let it go and chose not to complete it; though, it was close. There's going to have to be some of Christopher's work involved. This will be the first I read of Christopher that is not academic.


 
A very apt comparison between the Silmarillion and the Old Testament.  The Silmarillion was two things to JRR.  First it was a place that gave context to the languages he was developing (remeber he was a philologist) and second, it was an attempt on his part to produce epic literature in the same vain as the Scandinavian Eddas and Sagas.

Personally I'm a big fan of the Silmarillion and the story of Hurin and his children is one of the best parts.  It is based on an old, old Scandinavian story theme - the Broken Sword (there is an excellent book by Paul Anderson by that name).  JRR's version has everything an epic story should have: betrayal, romance, drama, great heroics, evil villains, dragon-slaying, and tragedy.  It would be nice if they include the life of Hurin in the book as well because its fantastic, especially the battle at which he gets captured, killed 70 trolls , could only be taken by Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs, its massive!


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## tradrockrat (Apr 16, 2007)

2 things:

1. - ST - you summmed it up perfectly.  My Godfather developed and taught an english lit class at Maryland based around Tolkien and Lewis books and I grew up hearing college scholars argue over the Simarillion and you pretty much nailed it.  Tolkien WANTED the book to feel this way, and for those of you that never got past the beginning - the reading gets easier.

2.  Do I like the Simarillion?  Well I named my motorcycle Morgoth...


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 16, 2007)

tradrockrat said:


> 2 things:
> 
> 1. - ST - you summmed it up perfectly. My Godfather developed and taught an english lit class at Maryland based around Tolkien and Lewis books and I grew up hearing college scholars argue over the Simarillion and you pretty much nailed it. Tolkien WANTED the book to feel this way, and for those of you that never got past the beginning - the reading gets easier.
> 
> 2. Do I like the Simarillion? Well I named my motorcycle Morgoth...


 
As a piece of writing I think the Silmarillion is better than LOTR, but it does encompass a vast amount of stuff.  I still think there is a good movie or five in it though.  

You like the name Morgoth?  I've always been partial to Gothmog.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 16, 2007)

For anyone who has read old english myths and other classic norse tales, the Silmarillion is a doppelganger.  It is supposed to read exactly like a holy book...which, in truth, that is its purpose.  If you think about the timespan covered in that book and the timespan covered in LoTR, it correctly mimics the way that all cultures have dealt with such things.

The bardic tradition is alive and well in the Silmarillion!

It's a wonderful book!


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 16, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I think the Children of Hurin tale has a very good potential to be an excellent book. So I definately will be picking up one. The Silmarillion is brutal reading but really gives you great background into Tolkien's world. Hopefully his son was inspired and the new book will be up to the level of the Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings.




The Silmarillion or "The Book of Names" as I call it, is a really rough read. It is dry and long and sometimes disconnected. But once through it, one really understands a lot more about the Middle Earth Realm. 

I hope the new book is good. I will look for it and browse it to see if I will buy.


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## jdinca (Apr 16, 2007)

I've lost track of how many times I've read LOTR over the years. I also own the directors cut of all three movies. That said, the Silmarillion almost did me in. As for the six books put out by his son, I found them even more difficult than the Silmarillion.

Now, if we can just get Robert Jordan to finish up the WOT before he kicks off, Terry Goodkind to wrap up the Sword of Truth series and George Martin to put out the next installment of the Fire and Ice saga, life will be much better in the fantasy literary world.


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## mrhnau (Apr 17, 2007)

Review of Children of Hurin


			
				The Review said:
			
		

> These works were, after all, largely unreadable -- dense, hard to follow histories and legends of Tolkien's vast, imaginary world, crammed with complicated genealogies, unfamiliar geography and hard-to-pronounce names. Readers who took up such books hoping for another Rings saga or charming yarn such as "The Hobbit" abandoned them after a few pages.
> 
> 
> "The Children of Hurin" is the book for which these readers have been longing.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 17, 2007)

Yay!
Although, I wouldn't say 'unreadable'.


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## stickarts (Apr 17, 2007)

I just ordered the new book. i am looking forward to reading it. The review seems promising.


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 17, 2007)

jdinca said:


> I've lost track of how many times I've read LOTR over the years. I also own the directors cut of all three movies. That said, the Silmarillion almost did me in. As for the six books put out by his son, I found them even more difficult than the Silmarillion.
> 
> Now, if we can just get Robert Jordan to finish up the WOT before he kicks off, Terry Goodkind to wrap up the Sword of Truth series and George Martin to put out the next installment of the Fire and Ice saga, life will be much better in the fantasy literary world.


 
I can understand someone struggling through the various books released by Christopher were really full of background material that JRR had never considered publishing.  The Silmarillion was the heavily edited version of all that stuff.  I suppose Chris just wasn't happy with the huge amount of money from the original publications.


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## exile (Apr 17, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> I suppose Chris just wasn't happy with the huge amount of money from the original publications.



Or with profits from the Hovercraft patent... I think you got it exactly right, ST. 

The Oxford philologist as cash cow... what a strange world we live in...


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## redfang (Apr 18, 2007)

Tolkien also did 'Farmer Giles of Ham' and 'The Smith of Wotten Major', if I'm remembering the titles correctly. They were more short story, novella length maybe with an English fairy tale feel. Light reads, enjoyable. Seems there was something else, not LoTR related, but its 6:00 and it is escaping me. 

Liked Silmarillion, but as has been said, its a slow read.


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## zDom (Apr 18, 2007)

OnlyAnEgg said:


> I dunno...while reading The sil was more like reading The Old Testament, I still enjoyed it immensely!



I agree.

I would advise any Tolkien fan to go ahead and read The Silmarillion.

It DOES start out kind of slow and difficult, but once you make it past that part there are some great stories, epic tragedies.

Having read The Hobbit, LotR and the Sil several (a dozen?) times each, I have to say The Silmarillion is my favorite.


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## exile (Apr 18, 2007)

redfang said:


> Tolkien also did 'Farmer Giles of Ham' and 'The Smith of Wotten Major', if I'm remembering the titles correctly. They were more short story, novella length maybe with an English fairy tale feel. Light reads, enjoyable. Seems there was something else, not LoTR related, but its 6:00 and it is escaping me.
> 
> Liked Silmarillion, but as has been said, its a slow read.



I think it was just plain _*Smith* of Wotten Major_. And yes, that's exactly what they were... very different from the magisterial stuff we usually associate with Tolkien, but very good of their kind.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 18, 2007)

I'll wait for the cartoon.:ultracool 
Sean


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## JBrainard (Apr 18, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> As a piece of writing I think the Silmarillion is better than LOTR...


 
Wow. I thought I was the only one who held that opinion.



redfang said:


> Tolkien also did 'Farmer Giles of Ham' and 'The Smith of Wotten Major', if I'm remembering the titles correctly. They were more short story, novella length maybe with an English fairy tale feel. Light reads, enjoyable. Seems there was something else, not LoTR related, but its 6:00 and it is escaping me.



Perhaps "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" is the title that was escaping you?


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## Bigshadow (Apr 18, 2007)

I guess I am going to have to pull Sil off the book shelf, dust it, and read it.


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 18, 2007)

JBrainard said:


> Wow. I thought I was the only one who held that opinion.


 
I suppose it is because it is a contracted version of all JRR background material.  LOTR, which I have read many, many, many, many times is a good read but there are long sections that are quite tedious, and then there's Frodo and Sam and their plodding.  

All the stuff Christopher has published over the years since the Book of Lost Tales is really the full version of the Silmarillion.  Taken as a whole it is almost incomprehensible.

That has just made me think.  The Children of Hurin will be at least the third version of the story.  There is a version in the Silmarillion and a somewhat different, extended version in the Book of Lost Tales.  I can't recall if there is another version amongst the other five tomes.


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## tradrockrat (Apr 18, 2007)

jdinca said:


> Now, if we can just get Robert Jordan to finish up the WOT before he kicks off,



sorry dude - Jordan lost me the first time he spent 15 pages describing a field of wheat  ...  The story could have ended three books ago.  I have this insane idea that he's getting paid the same way Dickens did - by the word (JMHO)


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 18, 2007)

tradrockrat said:


> sorry dude - Jordan lost me the first time he spent 15 pages describing a field of wheat  ... The story could have ended three books ago. I have this insane idea that he's getting paid the same way Dickens did - by the word (JMHO)


 
Jordan being paid by the word makes the Wheel of Pain, sorry, Time, make a lot more sense.


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## jdinca (Apr 19, 2007)

tradrockrat said:


> sorry dude - Jordan lost me the first time he spent 15 pages describing a field of wheat  ... The story could have ended three books ago. I have this insane idea that he's getting paid the same way Dickens did - by the word (JMHO)


 
I feel your pain. I've actually slogged through the whole thing twice. I'll go back and read Knife of Dreams when the next book comes out but I can't do the whole thing again. It's really too bad because there are some superb books in the series. 

Now, The Sword Of Truth series by Terry Goodkind I'll be reading a number of times over the years.


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## tradrockrat (Apr 19, 2007)

jdinca said:


> I feel your pain. I've actually slogged through the whole thing twice. I'll go back and read Knife of Dreams when the next book comes out but I can't do the whole thing again. It's really too bad because there are some superb books in the series.
> 
> Now, The Sword Of Truth series by Terry Goodkind I'll be reading a number of times over the years.



I thought the first three and a half books were great, but you couldn't pay me to read five and six again - and that's where I stoped with Jordan.

Believe it or not, I have never read a Goodkind book.  (Almost done Robert Crais and ready to go back to Sci/fi - fantasy so maybe thats next)


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## Sukerkin (Apr 19, 2007)

The Wheel of Time is a difficult one, this is true.  

Part of the problem is that Jordan got 'distracted' by his Conan works and WoT suffered as a result.

I originally thought we would have a septology (seven seals, seven books ... made sense to me) but now I'm not sure where the end point will lie.

The world is so rich with so many power groups and interesting characters that I almost don't mind it not ending yet but ... :lol:.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 19, 2007)

The Silmarillion was okay but hard to read.  The Lord of the Rings was really good but long.  The Hobbit was fantastic and fun.  Just my thoughts.  Let's hope the new book is good.


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## jdinca (Apr 19, 2007)

jdinca said:


> I feel your pain. I've actually slogged through the whole thing twice. I'll go back and read Knife of Dreams when the next book comes out but I can't do the whole thing again. It's really too bad because there are some superb books in the series.
> 
> Now, The Sword Of Truth series by Terry Goodkind I'll be reading a number of times over the years.


 
Go get Wizards First Rule. You won't be disappointed.


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## stickarts (Apr 22, 2007)

For me, LOTR was not long enough! I always put it down at the end  wanting more and feeling a bit sad that its over.

I just got my copy of the newest book. Can't wait to start it tonight!


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## hrlmonkey (Apr 29, 2007)

am i doing something wrong?  i'm a lifelong fantasy fan, but i've never enjoyed tolkiens work.  i found the hobbit to be the only one that had any redeeming qualities to it. 
but then i think that terry goodkind is untalented, and robert jordan is brain ache extrordinaire. 

any serious thoughts on the matter?  perhaps i dont have the correct approach to them?


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## exile (Apr 29, 2007)

hrlmonkey said:


> am i doing something wrong?  i'm a lifelong fantasy fan, but i've never enjoyed tolkiens work.  i found the hobbit to be the only one that had any redeeming qualities to it.
> but then i think that terry goodkind is untalented, and robert jordan is brain ache extrordinaire.
> 
> any serious thoughts on the matter?  perhaps i dont have the correct approach to them?



I don't think you need to adjust your attitude, hrlm. If they don't work for you, they don't work, period! I know what it's like to be a minority of oneI happen to think that _Beat the Devil_, with Humphrey Bogart, Peter Lorre, Gina Lollobridgida, Robert Morley and a host of others is the funniest movie ever made, and consistently get nothing but sneering contempt from movie buffs when I tell them this. So I feel your pain... :wink1:

But I'm very curious as to just what it is you don't like about _LoTR._ I'm just curious. Sometimes it's hard to put one's finger on why one has a particuar response to something, but if you can identify where you find it falling short, I'd really like to know about it...


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 29, 2007)

hrlmonkey said:


> am i doing something wrong? i'm a lifelong fantasy fan, but i've never enjoyed tolkiens work. i found the hobbit to be the only one that had any redeeming qualities to it.
> but then i think that terry goodkind is untalented, and robert jordan is brain ache extrordinaire.
> 
> any serious thoughts on the matter? perhaps i dont have the correct approach to them?


 
I can understand where you're coming from.  LoTR is something of a grind, and I usually read it at least once a year!  The Hobbit is much more reader friendly with good reason.  It was written to entertain JRR's children.  Personally, I like the Silmarillion because I like the epic saga nature of it.  The rest are pretty much the notes and background for the Silmarillion so are tough to read.

As to Terry Goodkind and Robert Jordan.  I don't know Goodkind's work so can't comment, but I agree whole-heartedly about Jordan his writing is brutal, though not as turgid as, say, DH Lawrence (just try reading The Rainbow Serpent I dare you).  And he appears to have mastered the art of the never-ending story.


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## hrlmonkey (Apr 30, 2007)

it took me year just to read the hobbit, and i found that to be the most rewarding of them.  
i dont think its the writing style itself, as i adore lovecraft and i find the styles very alike. 
tolkiens somebody that i'd like to explore more than i have, as i find the ideas interesting.  the reality of the read just turns me off though.

just as a silly aside,  the national karate association offices, are just across the road from the tolkein nurseries, in rivendell of all places!
if any of you are from the uk,  its between blackminster and offenham,  by evesham, worcestershire.  i originate from a few miles down the road from there.


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## mrhnau (Jun 12, 2007)

I just finished up the Hobbit and starting the Simarillion. It's pretty good so far  I might pick up the Children of Hurin if I enjoy Sim.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 12, 2007)

Oooh ... that's a risky proviso to set there, *Mrhnau* .  The Silmarillion, as this thread has attested is hardly a 'thriller' .  Still, if you approach it as a history book then it shouldn't be too bad :tup:.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 12, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> That has just made me think. The Children of Hurin will be at least the third version of the story. There is a version in the Silmarillion and a somewhat different, extended version in the Book of Lost Tales. I can't recall if there is another version amongst the other five tomes.


 
I believe there are others, as their are over a dozen volumes now pubished by Christopher.  JRR wrote and re-wrote his stories many times over, developing them and adding layers to them and changing them up.  Many of these stories were never really finished, but instead existed in several different versions. This is why the Silmarillion was never pubished until after his death.  He just couldn't finish the stories.  So what was finally published as the Silmarillion, was basically Christopher's best effort to put it together as completely and fully as possible in a way that made the most sense.  But there are definitely inconsistencies.  Mr. Tolkien's writings spanned several decades, and his notions of how everything fit together in the greater Middle Earth changed and altered often.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 12, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Oooh ... that's a risky proviso to set there, *Mrhnau* . The Silmarillion, as this thread has attested is hardly a 'thriller' . Still, if you approach it as a history book then it shouldn't be too bad :tup:.


 

exactly true.  Only a die-hard Tolkienophile should read the Silmarillion.  If you want a story, it's dull.  If you like epic saga, and have an unquenchable curiosity about the ancient history of Middle Earth and all things Tolkien, then it's a great book.


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## mrhnau (Jun 12, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Oooh ... that's a risky proviso to set there, *Mrhnau* .  The Silmarillion, as this thread has attested is hardly a 'thriller' .  Still, if you approach it as a history book then it shouldn't be too bad :tup:.





Flying Crane said:


> exactly true.  Only a die-hard Tolkienophile should read the Silmarillion.  If you want a story, it's dull.  If you like epic saga, and have an unquenchable curiosity about the ancient history of Middle Earth and all things Tolkien, then it's a great book.



I tend to enjoy the epic saga, and I'm not afraid of histories... so, I'm looking forward to it. Right now, its just reading like some religious text...


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## Steel Tiger (Jun 12, 2007)

I have my copy now but am yet to read it.  It does, however, appear to be a much longer version of the story of Turin and his sister.  There also appears to be a bit more depth in the discussion of Hurin and why his children ended up at an elven court.  But with elves, dwarves, powerful magic swords, curses, dragons and dragon-slaying how can it go wrong.


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## Aikikitty (Jun 12, 2007)

I read the Silmarillion a couple of years ago and liked it. I finished reading The Children of Hurin a several days ago and I really liked it. I love the artwork by Alan Lee in it. 

Robyn


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 30, 2008)

Ok...it's been a year since the book came out.  Who's read it and what did you think?

I've read it twice and loved it both times.  The language is, perhaps, a bit more stilted than LotR...on a level with Sil, I suppose.  The depth, though, of the story, was equal to anything else I'd read.

I'll be reading it again soon.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 30, 2008)

I'm ashamed to say that altho' I've had it since it came out I am yet to read it .  

I've been working my way through the Honor Harrington series (again ) and some related David Webber works, as well as keeping nibbling at Japanese history texts.

All that has pushed it a little further down the 'reading list'.  I shall have to amend that once I've finished the second part of "The Stars at War II".


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 30, 2008)

Nothing to be ashamed of   I like pulp sci-fi, too.


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