# Taekwondo isn't from Karate, it's from Korean Gwonbub that existed for 300 years



## Steven Lee (Jan 1, 2019)

Taekwondo isn't from Karate, it's from Korean Gwonbub that existed for 300 years. Taekwondo isn't from Karate. It's a misconception from how some called Taekwondo Toudi like they called Taekyun Judo, Jiujitsu with linguistic influence during Japanese occupation. Byungin Yoon, the father of Taekwondo, called it Gwonbub. It looks Gwonbub. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtgdlTKW0AAkVDl.jpg

"This content was organized by Master Cheolheui Park's testimony from 2005, recorded in the book "Gym oriented retrospect on Taekwondo Creation History". "I was born in 1933", "I was 15 when Master Byungin Yoon taught me Taekwondo, he called it Gwonbub". https://i.imgur.com/E9qxpdl.png

"YMCA Gwonbub club created Changmugwan Dojang & Pasaenggwan Dojo", "I was training Taekwondo at YMCA, I started Gwonbub at this era. Yoon called it Gwonbub." Also, Subak had frontal slap & punch. Fist & grab moving front & back. + Mustache Kokuryeo Korean. https://imgur.com/dP4XxxU.jpg

This link is written in Korean because the book was published in Korean, but there should be many translators. Interpreting proofs is essential in making correct conclusions. Taekyun & Yetbub were the civilian version; Taekwondo was the military Gwonbub. m.blog.daum.net/teams684/69

Gwonbub was a Korean martial art recorded in Muyedobotongji (Gwonbub) 300 years ago. As you see from the pictures, they look obviously Taekwondo. Karate look like Korean Gwonbub (Yoon's Taekwondo) probably because Karate copied Taekwondo for editing Toudi. https://i.imgur.com/MuXGNPv.png

Civilian crude version is Taekyun (kicking & wrestling) & Taekyun Yetbub (meaning old way, older Taekwondo, this is Pyunssaum, Sibak, Nanjangbaksi, Gitssaum Flag Fight, all had frontal punch). The military art form is Taekwondo, had punch, sparred by kick. https://i.imgur.com/LwjGIti.png

Subak had frontal slap, punch. + Korea had Flag Fight (Gitssaum, 1927 pictures & written description says fist fight; a type of civilian Pyunssaum like Yetbub, Nalparam) punching front & Taekwondo (military Gwonbub version) rotation-punching front. Hitting front isn't from Japan.

Korea hitting front isn't from Japan. Breaking was self-created by practicing & improving common sense hitting. Korea had frontal hitting in Subak, Flag Fight (Gitssaum), Pyunssaum (Nanjangbaksi, civilian Sibak), Gwonbub (military). Karate copied Korean frontal strike & Breaking.


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## Christopher Adamchek (Jan 1, 2019)

As with many arts of the area there is a long history of cross trade of stylistic techniques and i dont pretend to know the whole story of development.  Okinawa was a great trading point that developed its unique art, and they certainly could have picked things up from the Koreans.  

However modern Taekwondo is heavily influenced from Japanese Karate blended with older Korean Arts, similar to Korean Kumdo.


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## Earl Weiss (Jan 1, 2019)

The first problem would be to define what is or is not TKD?      As General relates in his book for any person or country to claim they created the attack or defense would be silly. Like claiming to have invented the wheel or discovering fire there were likely independent discoveries   and inventions by different people in different places.   So, just because there is some old Korean drawing of some Attack or defense does that say it was TKD?   
History is uncertain but it seems any codified Korean Arts were decimated during various invasions and occupations.    Some have been resurrected but there is no telling what if any  relation they have to the original.   TKD origins. like most arts codified in the 19th and 20th century are well known.   The system relied heavily on Shotokan - Shorin - Shorei roots as it was developed from the 1950's onward with  a large portion of the early practitioners being Chung Do Kwan luminaries who did "Korean Karate" 
I will leave it to a KKW practitioner to enlighten as as to any specifics where the KKW system may have moved away from those roots after 1974 or so, instead adopting what the OP states.


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## DaveB (Jan 1, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Taekwondo isn't from Karate, it's from Korean Gwonbub that existed for 300 years. Taekwondo isn't from Karate. It's a misconception from how some called Taekwondo Toudi like they called Taekyun Judo, Jiujitsu with linguistic influence during Japanese occupation. Byungin Yoon, the father of Taekwondo, called it Gwonbub. It looks Gwonbub. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtgdlTKW0AAkVDl.jpg
> 
> "This content was organized by Master Cheolheui Park's testimony from 2005, recorded in the book "Gym oriented retrospect on Taekwondo Creation History". "I was born in 1933", "I was 15 when Master Byungin Yoon taught me Taekwondo, he called it Gwonbub". https://i.imgur.com/E9qxpdl.png
> 
> ...


No.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 1, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Taekwondo isn't from Karate, it's from Korean Gwonbub that existed for 300 years. Taekwondo isn't from Karate. It's a misconception from how some called Taekwondo Toudi like they called Taekyun Judo, Jiujitsu with linguistic influence during Japanese occupation. Byungin Yoon, the father of Taekwondo, called it Gwonbub. It looks Gwonbub. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtgdlTKW0AAkVDl.jpg
> 
> "This content was organized by Master Cheolheui Park's testimony from 2005, recorded in the book "Gym oriented retrospect on Taekwondo Creation History". "I was born in 1933", "I was 15 when Master Byungin Yoon taught me Taekwondo, he called it Gwonbub". https://i.imgur.com/E9qxpdl.png
> 
> ...


What is your background in TKD? It helps in discussion to know a bit of each other's background (most of us have posted ours in whole and in bits multiple times on the forum).

What sources are you using for this claim?


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## Bruce7 (Jan 1, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> What is your background in TKD? It helps in discussion to know a bit of each other's background (most of us have posted ours in whole and in bits multiple times on the forum).
> 
> What sources are you using for this claim?



Congratulations on TPOM.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 1, 2019)

To quote Wolfgang Pauli - This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.


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## Gnarlie (Jan 2, 2019)

OP, I'll be better convinced of a link between Kwon Bop and TKD if you want to show me actual techniques or principles in Taekwondo that come uniquely from Kwon Bop and do not exist in Karate.

Why is it that both individual techniques and chains of techniques appearing in Taekwondo Poomsae also appear in Karate Kata?

Pictures and descriptions from the Muyedobotongji are so vague as to make them almost useless in reconstructing Kwon Bop in a physical sense. Where people have attempted to do so, Kwon Bop looks remarkably like Chinese Martial Arts. 

Sam Yang





Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 2, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> Congratulations on TPOM.


If you're going to congratulate me for that every time I get it, you're going to get tired.


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## pdg (Jan 2, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> If you're going to congratulate me for that every time I get it, you're going to get tired.



I had it once - you were away for work


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 2, 2019)

pdg said:


> I had it once - you were away for work


I think that was the month I spent two weeks in India with spotty internet.


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## skribs (Jan 2, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> If you're going to congratulate me for that every time I get it, you're going to get tired.



If I go back and congratulate you on every post, will I get TPOM?


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## pdg (Jan 2, 2019)

skribs said:


> If I go back and congratulate you on every post, will I get TPOM?



You'll need to congratulate him twice on at least one of them, and hope he doesn't thank you for every congratulation


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## DaveB (Jan 2, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Taekwondo isn't from Karate, it's from Korean Gwonbub that existed for 300 years. Taekwondo isn't from Karate. It's a misconception from how some called Taekwondo Toudi like they called Taekyun Judo, Jiujitsu with linguistic influence during Japanese occupation. Byungin Yoon, the father of Taekwondo, called it Gwonbub. It looks Gwonbub. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtgdlTKW0AAkVDl.jpg
> 
> "This content was organized by Master Cheolheui Park's testimony from 2005, recorded in the book "Gym oriented retrospect on Taekwondo Creation History". "I was born in 1933", "I was 15 when Master Byungin Yoon taught me Taekwondo, he called it Gwonbub". https://i.imgur.com/E9qxpdl.png
> 
> ...



Despite the obvious wrongness of the above post, its worth pointing out that Korean martial culture, whatever its form was when Japan took over, clearly had a big influence on karate.

Almost every kick associated with karate in popular imagination came thanks to Korean subjugation. Karate is based on southern Chinese kungfu, they rarely kicked above the waist. 

Things like roundhouse kick and spinning hook kick, and all the stance work and distancing associated with high kicking are born from the extraction of cultural concepts by the invading Japanese oppressors.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

Taekwondo isn't from Karate. Everyone in the first generation of Taekwondo learned Gwonbub from Byungin Yoon. Taekwondo originating from Shotokan Karate is a misconception from how some 1st generation Taekwondo people called it Toudi/Tangsu. However, their teacher Yoon called it Gwonbub. Korean had those Gwonbub pictures already 300 years ago. No, all those South Korean Tangsu/Toudi Kwans came from Gwonbub Gwan/gym. Go 1 step further in research. Read my links. Before the name Taekwondo, names Tangsu/Toudi was used. That's from linguistic influence by Japanese occupation. Before that, Taekwondo was called Gwonbub in 1946. I provided links for my quotes. Korean Gwonbub existed not just 300 years ago in Muyedobotongji but also in 1946 & before in the early 20th century. There are records of Gwonbub Gwan/Gym before Taekwondo was called Toudi/Tangsu by linguistic influence just like Taekyun was also called Jiujitsu, Judo (Yudo) in a newspaper. The rotation punch, knife hand stance, front kick, blocking kick all look very Taekwondo. Calling Taekwondo Gwonbub in 1946 predates calling it Tangsu, Toudi. Fact. I uploaded links for my references, which are all reputable references. Many my links are in Korean but there should be many translators. Interpreting evidences is essential for correct conclusion. My references include a Taekwondo master's book on gym oriented Taekwondo history. Here's a proof that Taekyun was called Judo (Yudo), Jiujitsu. https://i.imgur.com/dKf5yB5.jpg It's the same logic that Taekwondo was also called Tangsu/Toudi in the middle 20th century. In the early 20th century, it was called Gwonbub. Kihapsul, Kiaijutsu, Karate Tameshiwari's Origin/Source - Album on Imgur & Dukgi Song Kyulyun Taekyun Yetbub Sample Photos - Album on Imgur Bear Sports Topics | Facebook Here are summaries of more topics on Korean sports which I had to fight some people pushing bullshits without any reputable sources referencing. All my sources are all reputable & well known to scholars & other people experienced in such fields. Translate.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

Taekwondo isn't from Karate, it's from Korean Gwonbub (including Taekwondo rotation punch) that existed even in 1946 & before in the early 20th century (& also 300 years ago in Muyedobotongji). Also, Korea had many street fighting games like Nalparam, Nanjangbaksi, Gitssaum, etc.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Taekwondo isn't from Karate. Everyone in the first generation of Taekwondo learned Gwonbub from Byungin Yoon. Taekwondo originating from Shotokan Karate is a misconception from how some 1st generation Taekwondo people called it Toudi/Tangsu. However, their teacher Yoon called it Gwonbub. Korean had those Gwonbub pictures already 300 years ago. No, all those South Korean Tangsu/Toudi Kwans came from Gwonbub Gwan/gym. Go 1 step further in research. Read my links. Before the name Taekwondo, names Tangsu/Toudi was used. That's from linguistic influence by Japanese occupation. Before that, Taekwondo was called Gwonbub in 1946. I provided links for my quotes. Korean Gwonbub existed not just 300 years ago in Muyedobotongji but also in 1946 & before in the early 20th century. There are records of Gwonbub Gwan/Gym before Taekwondo was called Toudi/Tangsu by linguistic influence just like Taekyun was also called Jiujitsu, Judo (Yudo) in a newspaper. The rotation punch, knife hand stance, front kick, blocking kick all look very Taekwondo. Calling Taekwondo Gwonbub in 1946 predates calling it Tangsu, Toudi. Fact. I uploaded links for my references, which are all reputable references. Many my links are in Korean but there should be many translators. Interpreting evidences is essential for correct conclusion. My references include a Taekwondo master's book on gym oriented Taekwondo history. Here's a proof that Taekyun was called Judo (Yudo), Jiujitsu. https://i.imgur.com/dKf5yB5.jpg It's the same logic that Taekwondo was also called Tangsu/Toudi in the middle 20th century. In the early 20th century, it was called Gwonbub. Kihapsul, Kiaijutsu, Karate Tameshiwari's Origin/Source - Album on Imgur & Dukgi Song Kyulyun Taekyun Yetbub Sample Photos - Album on Imgur Bear Sports Topics | Facebook Here are summaries of more topics on Korean sports which I had to fight some people pushing bullshits without any reputable sources referencing. All my sources are all reputable & well known to scholars & other people experienced in such fields. Translate.


That's a very long post that restates the same points over and over.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Taekwondo isn't from Karate, it's from Korean Gwonbub (including Taekwondo rotation punch) that existed even in 1946 & before in the early 20th century (& also 300 years ago in Muyedobotongji). Also, Korea had many street fighting games like Nalparam, Nanjangbaksi, Gitssaum, etc.


I'm not sure what Korean street fighting games (whatever that means) have to do with the origin of what is now known as TKD.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

Korean street fighting games are a bonus fact. I cover broad topics in traditional Korean sports. As for this place, I'm focusing on the origin of Taekwondo. In 1946 & before that, as I quoted a book "gym oriented retrospect on Taekwondo Creation History", Taekwondo was called Gwonbub. Also, 300 years old Muyedobotongji Gwonbub pictures clearly resemble today's Taekwondo including Taekwondo rotation punch, Knife Hand stance, blocking kick, front kick. Some people in the first generation of Taekwondo called it Toudi/Tangsu, but it's a linguistic influence from Japanese occupation. (Those people all learned Taekwondo from Byungin Yoon's Gwonbub, not from Karate. Karate looks similar because they probably copied Korean Gwonbub while they were inventing Karate from Toudi by copying Korean Gwonbub & Korean Breaking/Tameshiwari.) I also showed a screenshot calling Taekyun (it has 2 sets of games, 1 is kicking game with throwing, another part Yetbub is street fighting with punches) as Judo. Taekwondo was called Gwonbub in 1946. I have Gwonbub pictures from 300 years ago. What more proofs do we need?


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## CB Jones (Jan 5, 2019)

@Steven Lee 

So you are saying that the founders of the original 5 kwans.....lied about their lineage and were actually trained in Gwonbub?


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## pdg (Jan 5, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> @Steven Lee
> 
> So you are saying that the founders of the original 5 kwans.....lied about their lineage and were actually trained in Gwonbub?



He must be.

Personal testimony obviously means nothing - plus they didn't post any videos on YouTube as evidence.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

As for Taekwondo's earliest gyms, you mean original 2 Kwans, Changmugwan & Pasaenggwan. From my sources, everyone learned Gwonbub from YMCA Gwonbub club (1946) & Chosunyeonmugwan Gwonbub Club. Even the Taekwondo people who called their art Toudi/Tangsu by linguistic influence learned from Byungin Yoon, according to my sources. Also, there should be physical evidences for YMCA Gwonbub club (1946) & Chosunyeonmugwan Gwonbub Club, paperwork & whatnot.

There are no videos to post on Taekwondo origin. There are photos, writings, screenshots.

What did 5 original Taekwondo Gwan say? That they learned Karate? No, according to my sources, they all learned Gwonbub. Korean Gwonbub 300 years ago looks different from Kung Fu & looks similar to today's Taekwondo & Karate because Karate probably copied it in 1922. Also, I don't see anything about 5 original Taekwondo Gwans saying about Karate other than that they sometimes called Taekwondo Tangsu/Toudi, which is from linguistic influence. I can't find "we learned Karate" from Korean Taekwondo gyms created after YMCA Gwonbub Club.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Korean street fighting games are a bonus fact. I cover broad topics in traditional Korean sports. As for this place, I'm focusing on the origin of Taekwondo. In 1946 & before that, as I quoted a book "gym oriented retrospect on Taekwondo Creation History", Taekwondo was called Gwonbub. Also, 300 years old Muyedobotongji Gwonbub pictures clearly resemble today's Taekwondo including Taekwondo rotation punch, Knife Hand stance, blocking kick, front kick. Some people in the first generation of Taekwondo called it Toudi/Tangsu, but it's a linguistic influence from Japanese occupation. (Those people all learned Taekwondo from Byungin Yoon's Gwonbub, not from Karate. Karate looks similar because they probably copied Korean Gwonbub while they were inventing Karate from Toudi by copying Korean Gwonbub & Korean Breaking/Tameshiwari.) I also showed a screenshot calling Taekyun (it has 2 sets of games, 1 is kicking game with throwing, another part Yetbub is street fighting with punches) as Judo. Taekwondo was called Gwonbub in 1946. I have Gwonbub pictures from 300 years ago. What more proofs do we need?


You've not made the link, actually, from what I can see. So, something called Gwonbub existed at least 300 years ago, and has some similarities to TKD. What I teach has some (not many) visual similarities to Sambo, and they are entirely unrelated unless you go back a few generations of arts and take a very thin connection.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> As for Taekwondo's earliest gyms, you mean original 2 Kwans, Changmugwan & Pasaenggwan. From my sources, everyone learned Gwonbub from YMCA Gwonbub club (1946) & Chosunyeonmugwan Gwonbub Club. Even the Taekwondo people who called their art Toudi/Tangsu by linguistic influence learned from Byungin Yoon, according to my sources. Also, there should be physical evidences for YMCA Gwonbub club (1946) & Chosunyeonmugwan Gwonbub Club, paperwork & whatnot.
> 
> There are no videos to post on Taekwondo origin. There are photos, writings, screenshots.
> 
> What did 5 original Taekwondo Gwan say? That they learned Karate? No, according to my sources, they all learned Gwonbub. Korean Gwonbub 300 years ago looks different from Kung Fu & looks similar to today's Taekwondo & Karate because Karate probably copied it in 1922. Also, I don't see anything about 5 original Taekwondo Gwans saying about Karate other than that they sometimes called Taekwondo Tangsu/Toudi, which is from linguistic influence. I can't find "we learned Karate" from Korean Taekwondo gyms created after YMCA Gwonbub Club.


Why do you keep repeating "by linguistic influence"? You made that point (several times) 3 or 4 posts ago?


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

I keep saying linguistic influence because some people claim Taekwondo is from Karate just because some 1st generation Taekwondo people called Taekwondo Toudi/Tangsu. That's not a proof because it was a linguistic influence. All those 1st generation learned Gwonbub from Byungin Yoon before they changed the name to Taekwondo.

The http addresses ending in jpg, png are image link files. The reddish brown parts are the links. Here are some bigger broader links.

Kihapsul, Kiaijutsu, Karate Tameshiwari's Origin/Source - Album on Imgur

Dukgi Song Kyulyun Taekyun Yetbub Sample Photos - Album on Imgur

Bear Sports Topics | Facebook

Here are some specific links.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtgdlTKW0AAkVDl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/E9qxpdl.png

https://imgur.com/dP4XxxU.jpg

m.blog.daum.net/teams684/69

https://i.imgur.com/MuXGNPv.png

https://i.imgur.com/LwjGIti.png

I feel like I'm fighting alone against the whole world in many issues (including fighting for the truth in sports), particularly not doing what I don't have to nor want to. I really could use some help.

Korean Gwonbub existed 300 years ago & it looks similar to today's Taekwondo & Karate. Looks different from Kung Fu. The name & the sport Gwonbub existed in Korea even in the early 20th century. The 1st generation Taekwondo people learned this Gwonbub at that Gwonbub club. Hence, Taekwondo has lineage to the early 20th century's Gwonbub, which has lineage to the Korean Gwonbub 300 years ago due to the same name & visual similarities.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 5, 2019)

Images of old Korean writing aren't really sources saying TKD (which isn't as old as what that's an image of) is descended from that art as opposed to Karate. That's a significant point. You state absolutes, and provide evidence that might be meaningful (I can't read it, and the stylized pictures don't provide much strength of evidence), but is far from conclusive.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

Kata is probably a Karate influence, but Taekwondo itself is not from Karate but from Korean Gwonbub which existed since 300 years ago even up to the early 20th century as the well documented history of Korean Gwonbub proves. People who learned this Gwonbub created Taekwondo. Hence, Taekwondo is from Korean Gwonbub, not from Karate. Kata culture was probably adopted from Karate, but Taekwondo moves themselves are from Korean Gwonbub. Also, Breaking is not from KArate. Korean had it as a power circus performance art; Karate copied it.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

It is conclusive. The writings & screenshots I showed explicitly say that Taekwondo's 1st generation people learned Gwonbub from Byungin Yoon. Hence, it's a conclusive fact that Taekwondo is from Korean Gwonbub, not from Karate. Karate probably copied Gwonbub. Also, it's a conclusive fact that Korean had a sport called Gwonbub documented 300 years ago. It's also conclusive how Taekwondo (with the root Korean Gwonbub in the early 20th century) & Korean Gwonbub 300 years ago look similar. It's conclusive that Taekwondo is from Gwonbub, not from Karate. The only question is what this Gwonbub is, and Korea had the same name sport with similar visual traits 300 years ago. That's good enough proof without moving goal post fallacy.


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## CB Jones (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> I showed explicitly say that Taekwondo's 1st generation people learned Gwonbub from Byungin Yoon.



This is incorrect.

Gwonbub very well could have existed but it was not the origin of Taekwondo.

Taekwondo originated from the Korean karate kwans that unified under the name of Taekwondo


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

Taekwondo didn't start by Karate Gwans/Gyms in South Korea uniting under the name Taekwondo. It's a misconception from calling Gwonbub as Toudi/Tangsu by linguistic influence. Those were not Karate Kwans. All those Gwans learned Gwonbub from Byungin Yoon according to my sources. They were not Karate Kwans but called themselves Toudi/Tangsu by linguistic influence. Before that, they were called Gwonbub; they learned Gwonbub from Byungin Yoon. Then, they called themselves Tangsu/Toudi; then they changed their name to Taekwondo.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 5, 2019)

Well, you're entitled to believe whatever silly nonsense you like.
We're also entitled to laugh at you.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

In m.blog.daum.net/teams684/69 quoting the book "Gwan/Gym Oriented Retrospect on Taekwondo Creation History" (there should be many other people's testimony as well as physical proofs like paperwork):
"YMCA권법부에서 파생되어 나온 관은 홍정표 씨가 먼저 무도원으로 시작했다가 내가 맡아 이름을 바꾼 강덕원 외에 이남석, 김순배 씨가 이끈 창무관, 이동주 씨가 대구에 만든 강무관 등이 있습니다. 강무관 출신에는 현 조증덕 씨가 생존해 계시죠. 그 제자 중의 한 사람이 택견협회를 이끌고 있는 이용복 씨 입니다. 또 이남석 씨의 제자가 서대문에서 충무관을 열었던 기억이 납니다. 마산인가 어디에서 성균관대학교 주장을 하던 사람이 도장을 열었는데, 관 명칭은 무언인지 잘 기억이 나지 않지만 권재화 씨가 이곳 출신이었던 것으로 기억됩니다."

"국제태권도연맹을 창설한 고(故) 최홍희 씨도 가끔 YMCA권법부에 들렀습니다."

"YMCA 권법부는 창무관(彰武館)과 강덕원의 파생관을 만들어내는데"

Translation:
"The Gwans that came out of YMCA Gwonbub Club are the following. Jungpyo Hong opened Mudowon; I took over & changed its name to Gangdukwon. Namsuk Lee & Soonbae Kim's Changmugwan. Dongju Lee's Gangmugwan, etc. Namseok's Lee's student opened Choongmugwan. Sungkyunkwan University's captain also opened a Dojang/Dojo.", "Honghi Choi, the founder of ITF Taekwondo also visited YMCA Gwonbub Club time to time.", "YMCA Gwonbub club created Changmugwan & Gangdeokwon's Pasaenggwan".


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

My sources are reputable in all topics whatever you pretend to be the truth. My facts should be the official facts in all topics.

I just need objective honest people & all the respectable scholars in the world siding with me. I don't have to try hard persuading non-scholars or dishonest people in any topic.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 5, 2019)

My source, who was actually there, says you're a silly git. Well, that's not an exact quote, but it wouldn't be polite to repeat what he actually said.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

My sources are reputable respectable sources in any topic including Subak, Taekwondo's origin, Breaking's origin (& history), Korean street fighting games, whatever topic. Also, most of the references I quote are old references, which means greater credibility. Taekwondo is from YMCA Gwonbub Club, not from Karate. Karate copied Korea's 300 years old Gwonbub moves; Karate also copied Breaking/Tameshiwari which was never from martial art but performance art power circus self-created by trial & error (& power motion knowhow from Korean wrestling). I have reputable data, records on any topic; the question should be only whether my references are reputable or not.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 5, 2019)




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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

Hitting dog is not fighting dog necessarily. Fighting dog is not necessarily martial art. Using martial art on a dog is not necessarily Karate. Mas Oyama breaking dog's neck has nothing to do with Karate if you are trying to imply that. Breaking Game existed before Karate. Mas Oyama introduced Breaking/Tameshiwari to Karate by copying Breaking Game & hard frontal hitting (Yong stacking speed & power, shoulder push in frontal hand strike) from Korean circus. I'm facts in any topic with reputable sources & impeccable logic. You laughing doesn't change logic nor sources.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 5, 2019)

Your translation does not remotely match mine.
For example, what it actually says about General Choi is that he visited the YMCA's legal office.


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## pdg (Jan 5, 2019)

This thread is absolute comedy genius, I wish I'd thought of it first.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

However you pretend my translation to be incorrect, many other people can corroborate my translation forever in history, now to the end of time. "국제태권도연맹을 창설한 고(故) 최홍희 씨도 가끔 YMCA권법부에 들렀습니다." For the record, this sentence nowhere says legal office.

I just need honest objective people evaluating logic (as opposed to fallacies), translations, references, sources then siding with the truth.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> I feel like I'm fighting alone against the whole world in many issues (including fighting for the truth in sports), particularly not doing what I don't have to nor want to. I really could use some help.



Why is this important enough to fight the whole world on? Does it matter where TKD came from?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> However you pretend my translation to be incorrect, many other people can corroborate my translation forever in history, now to the end of time. "국제태권도연맹을 창설한 고(故) 최홍희 씨도 가끔 YMCA권법부에 들렀습니다." For the record, this sentence nowhere says legal office.
> 
> I just need honest objective people evaluating logic (as opposed to fallacies), translations, references, sources then siding with the truth.



That's just the thing, see. You're wrong. Completely. It's utter nonsense.
I am siding with the truth. That's what bothers you.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> In m.blog.daum.net/teams684/69 quoting the book "Gwan/Gym Oriented Retrospect on Taekwondo Creation History" (there should be many other people's testimony as well as physical proofs like paperwork):
> "YMCA권법부에서 파생되어 나온 관은 홍정표 씨가 먼저 무도원으로 시작했다가 내가 맡아 이름을 바꾼 강덕원 외에 이남석, 김순배 씨가 이끈 창무관, 이동주 씨가 대구에 만든 강무관 등이 있습니다. 강무관 출신에는 현 조증덕 씨가 생존해 계시죠. 그 제자 중의 한 사람이 택견협회를 이끌고 있는 이용복 씨 입니다. 또 이남석 씨의 제자가 서대문에서 충무관을 열었던 기억이 납니다. 마산인가 어디에서 성균관대학교 주장을 하던 사람이 도장을 열었는데, 관 명칭은 무언인지 잘 기억이 나지 않지만 권재화 씨가 이곳 출신이었던 것으로 기억됩니다."
> 
> "국제태권도연맹을 창설한 고(故) 최홍희 씨도 가끔 YMCA권법부에 들렀습니다."
> ...



I have no horse in this race, but I doubt the accuracy of your translation. What is your background in the Korean Language and translation

I do not speak Korean or read it and I know Google Translate can make some pretty outrageous errors with Chinese translations but it does not come close to what you are saying here the above Korean is stating.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

Truth is important to fight for, especially if it has to do with profiting or damaging my label, background. I don't want any injustice to the wealth, culture, history, reputation of Korea (or me). I just need honest objective people evaluating logic (as opposed to fallacies), translations, references, sources, then siding with the truth.

Yeah, people who can read Korean will corroborate me forever in history, from now to the end of the time. My translations are good. Also, the only issue should be evaluating logic, translation, sources, not your wish or derision. I don't want to nor have to give up anything mine or Korea's, especially if it is about the truth in any topic.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

I'm a Korean who speaks Korean. The translation is right. You can show the Korean words & my translation to any Korean. They will say it is the correct translation smooth enough. I skipped the names of the cities to avoid bombarding Korean words.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> I'm a Korean who speaks Korean. The translation is right. You can show the Korean words & my translation to any Korean. They will say it is the correct translation smooth enough. I skipped the names of the cities to avoid bombarding Korean words.



I did. They didn't.
You're really just making yourself look silly.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

Then they are lying. My translation is accurate except that I'm skipping the names of the cities to avoid bombarding Korean words around.

"YMCA권법부에서 파생되어 나온 관", "홍정표 씨가 먼저 무도원으로 시작", "내가 맡아 이름을 바꾼 강덕원", "이남석, 김순배 씨가 이끈 창무관", "이동주 씨가 대구에 만든 강무관 등", "성균관대학교 주장을 하던 사람이 도장을 열었는데".

"국제태권도연맹을 창설한 고(故) 최홍희 씨도 가끔 YMCA권법부에 들렀습니다."

"YMCA 권법부는 창무관(彰武館)과 강덕원의 파생관을 만들어내는데"

That's what I translated. Either you or that Korean is distorting the truth by saying lies or by not saying details. I didn't translate the whole paragraph; I translated only the relevant parts to avoid forcing people to read Korean sounds.

Also, "국제태권도연맹을 창설한 고(故) 최홍희 씨도 가끔 YMCA권법부에 들렀습니다.", 국제태권도연맹 = ITF Taekwondo, 창설한 = created, 고(故) = dead, 최홍희 씨도 = Honghi Choi, 가끔 = sometimes, YMCA권법부에 = to YMCA Gwonbub club, 들렀습니다 = visited. No mention of legal office.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 5, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> I did. They didn't.
> You're really just making yourself look silly.


Did they say what it actually says?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Then they are lying.



Yes yes, all the founders are lying. And they all told the exact same lie. It's a giant conspiracy!


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 5, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Did they say what it actually says?



I didn't text the entire thing. I'm not going to spend that much time typing on a Korean keyboard. I just sent the line about General Choi, which apparently actually says he visited a lawyer.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

I translated after shortening the paragraph to the relevant minimum cause you don't want to hear words like Korean cities, who did what, etc. Just pure summary on which Gwan was opened by whom who came from YMCA Gwonbub Club. You have to agree, these are new information to you. Not well known. I'm adding much to the level of knowledge, references, events, history in these fields.

Taekwondo founders don't say they are from Karate. They agree they learned Gwonbub from YMCA Gwonbub Club. I'm facts in anything including Breaking/Tameshiwari (giant conspiracy pretending many sources try to steal Karate's accomplishment instead of Karate stealing from preexisting sports), Taekwondo (Kwonbub), Subak (clear pictures & writings) or whatever topic. All my sources say the same thing; they are all reputable sources. Correct conclusion should be based only on evaluating logic, references, sources, not your wish or wishful derision.

Regarding Honghi Choi, no mention of legal office in the sentence I showed nor in the sentences after. "국제태권도연맹을 창설한 고(故) 최홍희 씨도 가끔 YMCA권법부에 들렀습니다. 윤 선생님 하고는 같은 고향 출신이어서 친하게 지냈었죠. 최홍희 씨가 YMCA에 와서 운동을 한 것은 아니었구요. 저는 한 쪽 구석에서 혼자 수련하기를 좋아해 개인 수련을 많이 했습니다. " The part about Honghi Choi was this "국제태권도연맹을 창설한 고(故) 최홍희 씨도 가끔 YMCA권법부에 들렀습니다." Ridiculous this is stuck on the level of argument arguing the correct translation. Any Korean can verify the correct translation.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 5, 2019)

Is this all from one source or multiple sources? So far what you are posting seems to be from one person.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

I use tons of sources (all reputable by academic standards) in many traditional Korean sports topics. Even for the Taekwondo origin matter's sources, I use medieval Korean Muyedobotongji (300 years old martial art textbook used in the military) Gwonbub pictures as a source & a Korean grandmaster's book (which other Korean Taekwondo founders should agree & there should be physical proofs like paperwork) & an old newspaper calling Taekyun as Judo, Jiujitsu due to linguistic influence from Japanese occupation of Korea.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Taekwondo founders don't say they are from Karate.



Actually, they do. Pretty much all the founders were trained in Shotokan Karate, with some additional influence from Northern Chinese arts and Judo.

Let's look at what the founders actually said about their training:
Chung Do Kwan - LEE, Won Kuk - Shotokan.
Song Moo Kwan - RO, Byung Jik - Shotokan.
Moo Duk Kwan - HWANG, Kee - Tai Chi and Kung Fu.
Ji Do Kwan - CHUN, Sang Sup - Kodokan Judo.
Chang Moo Kwan - YOON, Byung In - Kung Fu and Shotokan.

Now, it's true that YOON, Byung In did teach at the  YMCA, and he did call his club the Kwon Bop Club. But he didn't train any of the other founders. He was known to be particularly close with CHUN, Sang Sup. They did travel and train together, but as peers and friends, not as teacher and student.

 The original forms taught prior to the unification? The same forms taught in Shotokan schools, even today.

Really, you're just deluding yourself. Do you honestly think all the founders, who never unanimously agreed on anything, unanimously agreed to join in some giant conspiracy to pretend their training was in Karate? And that they somehow convinced thousands of students who were there from the start (and many of whom are still alive today) to join this conspiracy?

Do you want to tell us about the time you were abducted by space aliens, too?


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## pdg (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Mas Oyama breaking dog's neck has nothing to do with Karate if you are trying to imply that. Breaking Game existed before Karate. Mas Oyama introduced Breaking/Tameshiwari to Karate by copying Breaking Game & hard frontal hitting (Yong stacking speed & power, shoulder push in frontal hand strike) from Korean circus



So nobody brought that up before you.

Is this supposed to be something about the Japanese stealing Korean techniques?

Because, y'know, Oyama wasn't Japanese until 1964.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

Kata in Taekwondo is probably Karate influence, but Taekwondo itself is not from Karate but Byungin Yoon's Gwonbub. According to my sources, they all learned Gwonbub from Byungin Yoon. Also, Byungin Yoon was trained in Gwonbub, which he taught in the name Gwonbub. Byungin Yoon didn't learn Shotokan Karate. According to my sources, Byungin Yoon already was trained in Gwonbub before teaching Gwonbub to Karate students after a fight. What's known for certain is that Byungin Yoon was already trained in Gwonbub before any contact with Karate; Byungin Yoon taught what he called Gwonbub in South Korea.

I wonder if the claim "Chung Do Kwan - LEE, Won Kuk - Shotokan", "Song Moo Kwan - RO, Byung Jik - Shotokan", "Moo Duk Kwan - HWANG, Kee - Tai Chi and Kung Fu", "Ji Do Kwan - CHUN, Sang Sup - Kodokan Judo", "Chang Moo Kwan - YOON, Byung In - Kung Fu and Shotokan" is true. Also, how old are those? After YMCA Gwonbub Club? According to my sources, the earlier Taekwondo people learned from Byungin Yoon. There should be testimonies & paperwork. Also, if some of them did say they trained Karate (Tangsu/Toudi), that's probably from mistaking Gwonbub to be Karate when it is actually a traditional Korean Gwonbub. Also, even if some of them did learn Karate, that doesn't mean they didn't learn Gwonbub to teach Korean Gwonbub. My source says Taekwondo's earlier era comes from Byungin Yoon & his Gwonbub. They could have taken swimming lessons as well, but it doesn't count towards Taekwondo. Which Taekwondo founder said they learned specifically Karate? Byungin Yoon didn't say it. Where's your source of such speech reference? If you are claiming those founders learned Shotokan Karate because they learned from Byungin Yoon & Byungin Yoon was trained in Shotokan Karate, you are mistaken. None of them learned Karate but Gwonbub. This includes Cheolheui Park who opened Gangdeokwon after the Korean war. The book "Gwan/Gym Oriented Retrospect to Taekwondo Creation History" was written by him in 2008 (the testimony was from 2005).


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

I get a lot of bullshits from many different kinds of people with different agenda. I was just taking a pick what it could be about.

Oyama not becoming Japanese until 1964 is irrelevant for his accomplishment, introducing Breaking/Tameshiwari to Karate which didn't have Breaking Game nor hard frontal hand strike (Yongryuk stacking speed & power, shoulder-push for hard frontal hand strike).


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## pdg (Jan 5, 2019)

What possible agenda could I have, really?

It's you, as an army of one, who appears to have an agenda and wants everyone to agree with you. Specifically you.

You, and your source(s) that directly contradict the personal testimonies of the involved people.

You, that claim the founders of the kwans were either lying or mistaken about what they learned and from whom.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Kata in Taekwondo is probably Karate influence



Nope. Not probably. IS. Because that's what the founders were taught.



> , but Taekwondo itself is not from Karate but Byungin Yoon's Gwonbub.



Not according to YOON, Byung In. According to him, he studied Kung Fu and Shotokan. And he didn't claim to have taught ANY of the founders.



> Byungin Yoon didn't learn Shotokan Karate.



According to him, he did. Are you saying he lied about his training?



> Which Taekwondo founder said they learned specifically Karate?



All of them that I listed.



> Byungin Yoon didn't say it.



Actually, he did.
His primary training was in Kung Fu, and his school was primarily based on this (similar to the Moo Duk Kwan).


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

I'm not talking specifically you. I just get a lot of such bullshits often instead of carefully sorting out evidences.

I don't have an agenda. I just want all facts to be out there & recognized academically.

I am quoting personal testimonies of the involved people, specifically to their own words & their own books written in their own words.

Show me the speech references saying that those Koreans learned Karate. Also, even in such case, Taekwondo was largely involved by Byungin Yoon & his Gwonbub lineage anyway. Taekwondo has Korean Gwonbub lineage.


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## pdg (Jan 5, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Nope. Not probably. IS. Because that's what the founders were taught.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




LIES!!! ALL LIES!!!!

You're only saying all that support your agenda.

I don't know what your agenda might be - probably the same as mine - but it obviously needs supporting with lies.

Or you're mistaken.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

Show me the speech references, which my source apparently didn't show. When did Byungin Yoon say such thing?

Byungin Yoon probably also learned Kung Fu, but he still learned Gwonbub to teach Gwonbub. (& he was also seen striking tree, which was a traditional Korean exercise.) Many Korean Gwans/Gyms learned from Byungin Yoon. I quoted Cheolheui Park (Gangdeokwon).

Because of Byungin Yoon & his Gwonbub lineage Gwans/Gyms (I quoted so many earlier Gwans/Gyms in his lineage), Taekwondo has Korean Gwonbub lineage. If there's any actual Karate gym not in Byungin Yoon's lineage who contributed to the creation of Taekwondo, at the worst case scenario, Taekwondo comes from Korean Gwonbub with exposure to Karate culture like Kata. In any case, Byungin Yoon's 1946's Gwonbub is the center of Taekwondo.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> I'm not talking specifically you. I just get a lot of such bullshits often instead of carefully sorting out evidences.



Stop swearing. It violates the TOS here.
There's no need to sort evidence, when the record is relatively clear about what training the founders had. Some details may be open for debate (i.e. LEE Won Kuk claimed that HWANG, Kee trained under him, while HWANG, Kee denied it). But that most were trained in Shotokan is not in the least subject to debate. Well, unless you're buying into some conspiracy nonsense, claiming they all lied.



> I don't have an agenda. I just want all facts to be out there & recognized academically.



The facts are recognized. But not by you.




Steven Lee said:


> Byungin Yoon probably also learned Kung Fu,



It's cute that you think you know more about his training than he did. It really is.



> Many Korean Gwans/Gyms learned from Byungin Yoon.



He never made that claim. The other founders never claimed to have trained under him.

I know.... it's all part of the Grand Conspiracy, right?



> I quoted Cheolheui Park (Gangdeokwon).



Bluntly, who cares? I never heard of a Gangdeokwon, nor does google show anything. Neither of us knows Cheolheui Park either.


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## pdg (Jan 5, 2019)

Let's just for a minute consider that all this might be correct.

And?

I know a couple of people who are adamant that tkd is directly derived from taekkyeon and has been almost unchanged for 3,000 years.

They still train the same stuff I do.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

Show me the actual references who said what instead of some people deciding who was taught what. Byungin Yoon taught Gwonbub to Karate, he wasn't taught Karate before becoming a Karate teacher in Japan.

"박철희는 1933년 생으로 YMCA권법부에서 권법을 수련하였으며, 6․25 이후에는 강덕원을 창설하였다. 육군사관학교 태권도 교관, 경무대 무도 사범, 대한태수도협회 이사 등을 역임했다."


"해방 후 선생은 경성농업학교에서 체육교사로 재직하면서 당신이 배운 무예를 학생들에게 가르쳤습니다. 이후 직장을 경동중학교로 옮기셨는데, 이 당시 세계태권도연맹 회장을 맡아 태권도를 세계화시키고 올림픽 종목으로 채택되게 만드는데 혁혁한 공을 세운 김운용(金雲龍) 씨도 이 학교에서 권법을 배웠다고 합니다."

"After Korea was liberated, Master (Yoon) was a gym teacher in Gyungsung Agriculture school, taught his martial art. Later, he moved to Gyungdong Middle School. Even Woonyong Kim who was the WTF Taekwondo president learned Gwonbub in that school". YMCA Gwonbub Club was old, built in 1946. Gangdeokwon was also an old Gwonbub school started right after the Korean war. "Cheolheui Park was born in 1933. Trained Gwonbub in YMCA Gwonbub club. After the Korean war, started Gangdeokwon. He was the Taekwondo teacher in Military Army School, Gyungmudae Martial Art teacher, Daehan Taesudo Federation Secretary."


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

Taekyun (wrestling with kicking) & Yetbub (Korean street fighting game) is a civilian version. Taekwondo was Gwonbub, the military art version that existed since 300 years ago. (Has punch. Spars by kicking.) Mas Oyama also mentioned Chosun-Gwonbub in his Karate book.

I can't really commit much here due to my living situations. I hope I showed much objective evidences, enough to persuade what the truth is for objective people.


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## Gnarlie (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Taekyun (wrestling with kicking) & Yetbub (Korean street fighting game) is a civilian version. Taekwondo was Gwonbub, the military art version that existed since 300 years ago. (Has punch. Spars by kicking.) Mas Oyama also mentioned Chosun-Gwonbub in his Karate book.
> 
> I can't really commit much here due to my living situations. I hope I showed much objective evidences, enough to persuade what the truth is for objective people.


If you'd care to address my questions and observations from post #8, it might help your case. Just stating what you have found and not addressing problems with it detracts from the credibility of your argument. If you want to be taken seriously, that might not the best way to go. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 5, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> That's a very long post that restates the same points over and over.


Good thing I didn't read it lol.  Discussions like this are draining to me and I never gain anything from them.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 5, 2019)

One of theses guys is probably the real Hanzou.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> My sources are reputable respectable sources in any topic including Subak, Taekwondo's origin, Breaking's origin (& history), Korean street fighting games, whatever topic. Also, most of the references I quote are old references, which means greater credibility. Taekwondo is from YMCA Gwonbub Club, not from Karate. Karate copied Korea's 300 years old Gwonbub moves; Karate also copied Breaking/Tameshiwari which was never from martial art but performance art power circus self-created by trial & error (& power motion knowhow from Korean wrestling). I have reputable data, records on any topic; the question should be only whether my references are reputable or not.


Older does not, in any way, mean more credible.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 5, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Older does not, in any way, mean more credible.



If it does, I'm pretty darn credible.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Truth is important to fight for, especially if it has to do with profiting or damaging my label, background. I don't want any injustice to the wealth, culture, history, reputation of Korea (or me). I just need honest objective people evaluating logic (as opposed to fallacies), translations, references, sources, then siding with the truth.
> 
> Yeah, people who can read Korean will corroborate me forever in history, from now to the end of the time. My translations are good. Also, the only issue should be evaluating logic, translation, sources, not your wish or derision. I don't want to nor have to give up anything mine or Korea's, especially if it is about the truth in any topic.


I wish our native Korean speakers were active. They’d enjoy this.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 5, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> If it does, I'm pretty darn credible.


Just proves my point.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 5, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I wish our native Korean speakers were active. They’d enjoy this.


On the very off chance that he receives email alerts and sees this...paging @KangTsai


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## CB Jones (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> I wonder if the claim "Chung Do Kwan - LEE, Won Kuk - Shotokan", "Song Moo Kwan - RO, Byung Jik - Shotokan", "Moo Duk Kwan - HWANG, Kee - Tai Chi and Kung Fu", "Ji Do Kwan - CHUN, Sang Sup - Kodokan Judo", "Chang Moo Kwan - YOON, Byung In - Kung Fu and Shotokan" is true. Also, how old are those? After YMCA Gwonbub Club? According to my sources, the earlier Taekwondo people learned from Byungin Yoon. There should be testimonies & paperwork. Also, if some of them did say they trained Karate (Tangsu/Toudi), that's probably from mistaking Gwonbub to be Karate when it is actually a traditional Korean Gwonbub. Also, even if some of them did learn Karate, that doesn't mean they didn't learn Gwonbub to teach Korean Gwonbub. My source says Taekwondo's earlier era comes from Byungin Yoon & his Gwonbub. They could have taken swimming lessons as well, but it doesn't count towards Taekwondo. Which Taekwondo founder said they learned specifically Karate?



Chung Do Kwan - founded by Lee Won Kuk who in *1926* went to high school and college in Tokyo and trained in Shotokan by Gichin and Gigo Funakoshi.  He would become a 4th degree BB in Shotokan.  In *1944*, He was granted permission by the Japanese Governor and General to begin teaching Karate in Seoul.

Song Moo Kwan - Founded in 1946 by Ro Byung Jick, who had studied karate under Gichin Funakoshi along with Chung Do Kwan founder Lee Won Kuk in Japan.

Moo Duk Kwan - Founded in *1945* by Hwang Kee trained combined chinese kung fu and japanese karate

Ji Do Kwan - Founded in 1946 by  Chun Sang Sup who had studied Shotokan karate with Gichin Funakoshi in Japan

Chang Moo Kwan - Founded in *1946 by Yoon Byung-in and taught in YMCA.  *He was trained in Kung Fu and Shudokan.  He would disappear to North Korea in 1950 for the Korean war and the Chang Moo Kwan was run by Student Lee Nam Suk.


So the other 4 kwans were teaching *before or around *the same time as Yoon Byung-in founded his YMCA Gwonbub club.  He did not teach them.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

The 300 years old Korean Gwonbub pictures that I showed look like today's Taekwondo & Karate. Byungin Yoon taught a martial art called Gwonbub in Korea, which became a huge part of new Taekwondo. That suffices as proof cause the sport name is the same & the contents are the same. If there was any Karate school who contributed to the creation of Taekwondo, it is merely Kata culture being adopted by Taekwondo. Karate didn't invent nor have anything Korean Gwonbub already didn't have for the last 300 years. All the important Taekwondo techniques including rotation punching already existed in Korean Gwonbub, which Japan probably copied in creating Karate. Also, Byungin Yoon doesn't have lineage to Karate; he learned Gwonbub to teach the sport named Gwonbub.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

Ah, thanks for that update. It seems that some Karate schools did participate in Taekwondo creation. Still, the main factor is Gwonbub. That's what I wanted to focus on. Karate schools participating in Taekwondo creation contributed nothing that Korean Gwonbub already didn't have. Also, I'm against declaring Byungin Yoon was trained in Shotokan Karate. When Byungin Yoon was in Japan, he taught Gwonbub to Karate as a Karate teacher. He wasn't taught Karate before that. He was already trained in Gwonbub (hence, teaching Gwonbub) before any contact with Karate & Kung Fu.


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## CB Jones (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> The 300 years old Korean Gwonbub pictures that I showed look like today's Taekwondo & Karate. Byungin Yoon taught a martial art called Gwonbub in Korea, which became a huge part of new Taekwondo. That suffices as proof cause the sport name is the same & the contents are the same. If there was any Karate school who contributed to the creation of Taekwondo, it is merely Kata culture being adopted by Taekwondo. Karate didn't invent nor have anything Korean Gwonbub already didn't have for the last 300 years. All the important Taekwondo techniques including rotation punching already existed in Korean Gwonbub, which Japan probably copied in creating Karate. Also, Byungin Yoon doesn't have lineage to Karate; he learned Gwonbub to teach the sport named Gwonbub.



Byungin Yoon only spent 4 years teaching in South Korea....and due to that probably had a very small part in creating  taekwondo due to living in North Korea.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

Still, his school carried out his techniques including to WTF Taekwondo president & Taesudo Secretary. I admit Byungin Yoon's participation to Taekwondo is not as big as I hoped. I think I'll focus mostly on names like Taekyun, Yetbub (street fighting games, Sibak, Baksi, Nanjangbaksi, Pyunssaum), Nalparam, Kyuksul (originally started with boxing-like rule), Subak (had straight slap & punch in it), Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu (the source of Breaking/Tameshiwari) for valuing Korea's cultural wealth purpose. Still, Korean Gwonbub made a connection to Taekwondo however little that connection may be. Also, Japanese Karate looks very fishy with the resemblance to Korean Gwonbub. I'm done with Taekwondo-Karate link topic then. Taekwondo indeed has mostly Karate influence. But Gwonbub still made a connection to Taekwondo. & Korea has had many other traditional fighting sports & power sports.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 5, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> On the very off chance that he receives email alerts and sees this...paging @KangTsai


Thanks, I was on my phone and couldn't get it to autofill, so wasn't sure I was typing his username right.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> The 300 years old Korean Gwonbub pictures that I showed look like today's Taekwondo & Karate. Byungin Yoon taught a martial art called Gwonbub in Korea, which became a huge part of new Taekwondo. That suffices as proof cause the sport name is the same & the contents are the same. If there was any Karate school who contributed to the creation of Taekwondo, it is merely Kata culture being adopted by Taekwondo. Karate didn't invent nor have anything Korean Gwonbub already didn't have for the last 300 years. All the important Taekwondo techniques including rotation punching already existed in Korean Gwonbub, which Japan probably copied in creating Karate. Also, Byungin Yoon doesn't have lineage to Karate; he learned Gwonbub to teach the sport named Gwonbub.


You just pointed out that Gwonbub also looks like Karate. So, the similarities you pointed out to say they had to have come from Gwonbub could also have come from Karate.


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## CB Jones (Jan 5, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> You just pointed out that Gwonbub also looks like Karate. So, the similarities you pointed out to say they had to have come from Gwonbub could also have come from Karate.




Wouldn't it be reasonable to believe:

Koreans were prohibited by the Japanese government to train in martial arts in 1870 that lasted in to the 1920s.

Karate originated in Okinawa and taken to Japan.

And Gwonbub could have originated from Okinawaan karate as well but that link was lost during the ban?


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

Something could have come from either Gwonbub or Karate? Gwonbub is older, & Byungin Yoon used that name for teaching.

No, Gwonbub was never lost. It was taught in the Korean military even until the early 20th century. Korean military was trained in its martial art textbook Muyedobotongji including Gwonbub.

No, Gwonbub's history recorded it came from Subak (means Clap, but the sport had straight slaps & punches anyway), with Chinese Kung Fu Taizu 32 Palm Way influence. Also, Japanese admit that Toudi & Karate are different, "simpler". It's weird for sports to look "coincidentally" the same. So, Karate probably copied Korean Gwonbub since it's older than 1922's Funakoshi Karate by 200 years. I don't think Korean Gwonbub is from Okinawan Toudi. There's no such records at all in Korea. Also, how did Okinawan Toudi "really" look like? No visual records, right?


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## CB Jones (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Something could have come from either Gwonbub or Karate? Gwonbub is older, & Byungin Yoon used that name for teaching.
> 
> No, Gwonbub's history recorded it came from Subak (means Clap, but the sport had straight slaps & punches anyway), with Chinese Kung Fu Taizu 32 Palm Way influence. Also, Japanese admit that Toudi & Karate are different, "simpler". It's weird for sports to look "coincidentally" the same. So, Karate probably copied Korean Gwonbub since it's older than 1922's Funakoshi Karate by 200 years. I don't think Korean Gwonbub is from Okinawan Toudi. There's no such records at all.



Funakoshi studied and brought karate from Okinawa not Korea.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

No, that's what he said, not what he did. Does it seem likely though? Pictures don't look the same coincidentally (which is why I was hung up on Taekwondo-Gwonbub link). This is just a side topic. I already declared that Taekwondo is mostly Karate influence & that I will focus on other Korean traditional sports (like Taekyun-Yetbub, Nalparam, Subak, Kyuksul, Breaking, etc many historical sports) to value the cultural wealth of Korea. Also, Funakoshi admitted that Okinawan Toudi & Karate are different, right? Simpler or whatever?


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## CB Jones (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> No, that's what he said, not what he did. Does it seem likely though? Pictures don't look the same coincidentally. This is just a side topic. I already declared that Taekwondo is mostly Karate influence & that I will focus on other Korean traditional sports (like Taekyun-Yetbub, Nalparam, Subak, Kyuksul, Breaking, etc many historical sports) to value the cultural wealth of Korea. Also, Funakoshi admitted that Okinawan Toudi & Karate are different, right? Simpler or whatever?



Well he was born and raised in Okinawa....so it would be likely that what he brought to Japan was based from Okinanwaan style karate.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 5, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> Funakoshi studied and brought karate from Okinawa not Korea.


Yeah, but they also brought okinawa brought karate from china. It's all a circle (or line in this case I guess).


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 5, 2019)

Just out of curiosity.  Is it that important to know where the original roots of TKD came from?  When I look at Traditional Korean marital arts, they tend to have a different flow than TKD.  I've noticed this with many martial arts. It is like each system has a unique concept of movement that is adopted by the area (country, region, village) and I'm thinking if you view that concept of movement, then you can trace it back to it's influences.  TKD does not move like Traditional Korean Martial arts.  It's movement is more like a blend between Korean and Japanese martial arts.  

If I had to describe TKD, then I would say that it took the punching from Japan and Kicking from Native Korean Martial arts which seem to favor more of the soft power than the hard power that is common in Japanese Martial arts.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

The topic of Taekwondo, Gwonbub, Karate link is done. Taekwondo is mostly Karate. Also, I'm limited to computer time due to my living conditions, can't commit to this place.

Yes, truth matters in any topic, especially if I (or my background Korea) get harms, losses, profits in any way from it. I'm done here.

Korean martial arts don't favor "soft power". You made it up. Historically, Korea has many historical data hitting hard, punching hard, kicking hard. Taekyun does soft contact sparring, but Taekyun-Yetbub hits hard (& it punches and stuff) for real. Kyuksul which likely comes from Korean Subak also is known for hard power. Kiaijutsu (Korean Kihapsul/Charyuk) also uses hard power in Breaking/Tameshiwari (not from martial art but self-created from power circus, which Mas Oyama introduced to Karate). There are also many Subak records hitting hard. What Japanese martial art favors hard power? Karate? Karate doesn't hit the same way as its Tameshiwari/Breaking which is from Kiaijutsu including the hitting technique. Judo? Judo throws hard, but Korean wrestling Ssireum is also like that, except more limited in grips.


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## CB Jones (Jan 5, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Just out of curiosity.  Is it that important to know where the original roots of TKD came from?  When I look at Traditional Korean marital arts, they tend to have a different flow than TKD.  I've noticed this with many martial arts. It is like each system has a unique concept of movement that is adopted by the area (country, region, village) and I'm thinking if you view that concept of movement, then you can trace it back to it's influences.  TKD does not move like Traditional Korean Martial arts.  It's movement is more like a blend between Korean and Japanese martial arts.
> 
> If I had to describe TKD, then I would say that it took the punching from Japan and Kicking from Native Korean Martial arts which seem to favor more of the soft power than the hard power that is common in Japanese Martial arts.



Its definitely a blend of styles.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 5, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Yeah, but they also brought okinawa brought karate from china. It's all a circle (or line in this case I guess).


There are some over laps, but each country had their own national concept of fighting.and you can see those fighting concepts by examining the movement of the fighting and not so much the techniques, because the techniques overlap big time from martial arts to martial arts.  National fighting concepts is no different than National governance concepts that are embraced by the citizens.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Yes, truth matters in any topic, especially if I (or my background Korea) get harms, losses, profits in any way from it.


I don't want to sound too American and too insensitive, but I doubt the harm, losses, losses in profit or any other perceived loss would be rectified by who did what first.  TKD is one of the most profitable martial arts systems out there and the majority of those who practice it aren't even interested in actually being able to fight and destroy their enemy.  

I find it difficult that any loss that you are experiencing is the result of knowing the truth about the origin of TKD.  That is unless you are a tour guide who tells tourist about the origins of TKD.  I have always found that the Truth only matters when things are clear.  Until then that point the truth is a fuzzy thing with different perspective.  Sort of like science. The science community is just a bunch of scientist who think they know what is going on with various theories on what the truth is.  Then one day someone is able to get to the truth, which usually mean there were a lot of other scientists who had incorrect theories.  Martial arts is like that.  The people who could have really shined more accurate information have been dead for centuries and unfortunately they weren't good at documenting martial arts history.

They were probably like the rest of us.  Life gets in the way and other priorities take over.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 5, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> Its definitely a blend of styles.


And the good news is that there's nothing wrong with a good blend.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 5, 2019)

Ah actually not many know this, but I invented Taekwondo.

(You may close the thread if you wish)


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> No, Gwonbub was never lost. It was taught in the Korean military even until the early 20th century. Korean military was trained in its martial art textbook Muyedobotongji including Gwonbub.



Now you're claiming that the Korean military (which didn't exist during the Japanese occupation) was training with spears on horseback up through the liberation, but all record of this was erased?



Steven Lee said:


> No, that's what he said, not what he did.



Ah, I get it. So Gichin Funakosi was also a part of the Great Conspiracy?



> I already declared that Taekwondo is mostly Karate influence



Yes. You finally got it correct. Taekwondo was almost wholly based on Karate, primarily Shotokan.



Steven Lee said:


> Taekwondo is mostly Karate.



Yes. It is. It's good that you've finally come to realize this.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 5, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Korean martial arts don't favor "soft power". You made it up. Historically, Korea has many historical data hitting hard, punching hard, kicking hard.


  Soft and hard power has nothing to do with how hard someone hits or kicks another pers.  Soft power and hard power are just fighting concepts that describe how one receives attacks and send attacks.  These are common martial arts techniques.  But I'll take the credit for creating the concepts of Soft and Hard Power.  if you want to give it to me.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 5, 2019)

_Simon_ said:


> Ah actually not many know this, but I invented Taekwondo.
> 
> (You may close the thread if you wish)


That's awesome.  I just found out today that I invented the concept of Soft and Hard Power.  I can't wait to tell Hanzou and Kung Fu Wang that their teachers lied to them.  Guess I'll have to go to China and give them the bad news as well.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 5, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's awesome.  I just found out today that I invented the concept of Soft and Hard Power.  I can't wait to tell Hanzou and Kung Fu Wang that their teachers lied to them.  Guess I'll have to go to China and give them the bad news as well.



Yeah I thought so, and no worries you're totally welcome by the way! And that's really cool to know, yeah you'd better do that, for the sake of historical accuracy :S


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## andyjeffries (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> As for Taekwondo's earliest gyms, you mean original 2 Kwans, Changmugwan & Pasaenggwan. From my sources, everyone learned Gwonbub from YMCA Gwonbub club (1946) & Chosunyeonmugwan Gwonbub Club. Even the Taekwondo people who called their art Toudi/Tangsu by linguistic influence learned from Byungin Yoon, according to my sources. Also, there should be physical evidences for YMCA Gwonbub club (1946) & Chosunyeonmugwan Gwonbub Club, paperwork & whatnot.



Out of interest, given that you state Taekwondo's earliest gyms are effectively Changmookwan (GM Yoon, Byung-in founded) and you claim that GM Yoon taught solely Kwonbeop and all of Taekwondo comes from this root - have you checked this with the current president of Changmookwan?

I interviewed him in July of last year (coming to my Youtube channel when I can finish the translation) and he made no such claims.

If you like I can ask him (through his son), specific questions about this early period? I'm a Changmookwan 7th Dan and a regional CMK manager for the UK.


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## Tez3 (Jan 6, 2019)

I would like to ask the OP if he trains martial arts if so what and to what standard?


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## Earl Weiss (Jan 6, 2019)

[QUOTE="S
Taekwondo founders don't say they are from Karate. .[/QUOTE]


Except - They did. You are wrong.


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## DaveB (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Taekwondo isn't from Karate. Everyone in the first generation of Taekwondo learned Gwonbub from Byungin Yoon. Taekwondo originating from Shotokan Karate is a misconception from how some 1st generation Taekwondo people called it Toudi/Tangsu. However, their teacher Yoon called it Gwonbub. Korean had those Gwonbub pictures already 300 years ago. No, all those South Korean Tangsu/Toudi Kwans came from Gwonbub Gwan/gym. Go 1 step further in research. Read my links. Before the name Taekwondo, names Tangsu/Toudi was used. That's from linguistic influence by Japanese occupation. Before that, Taekwondo was called Gwonbub in 1946. I provided links for my quotes. Korean Gwonbub existed not just 300 years ago in Muyedobotongji but also in 1946 & before in the early 20th century. There are records of Gwonbub Gwan/Gym before Taekwondo was called Toudi/Tangsu by linguistic influence just like Taekyun was also called Jiujitsu, Judo (Yudo) in a newspaper. The rotation punch, knife hand stance, front kick, blocking kick all look very Taekwondo. Calling Taekwondo Gwonbub in 1946 predates calling it Tangsu, Toudi. Fact. I uploaded links for my references, which are all reputable references. Many my links are in Korean but there should be many translators. Interpreting evidences is essential for correct conclusion. My references include a Taekwondo master's book on gym oriented Taekwondo history. Here's a proof that Taekyun was called Judo (Yudo), Jiujitsu. https://i.imgur.com/dKf5yB5.jpg It's the same logic that Taekwondo was also called Tangsu/Toudi in the middle 20th century. In the early 20th century, it was called Gwonbub. Kihapsul, Kiaijutsu, Karate Tameshiwari's Origin/Source - Album on Imgur & Dukgi Song Kyulyun Taekyun Yetbub Sample Photos - Album on Imgur Bear Sports Topics | Facebook Here are summaries of more topics on Korean sports which I had to fight some people pushing bullshits without any reputable sources referencing. All my sources are all reputable & well known to scholars & other people experienced in such fields. Translate.



Still no.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 6, 2019)

Older references with inherited knowledge are more credible than recent references with imagination or agenda (bending logic to meet goals). Also, what's important is whether the sources are academically reputable. That being said, the way I conclude Taekwondo's origin is that it's a mix of Korean Gwonbub & Karate. But all the important techniques including rotation punch already existed in Gwonbub. Karate's influence is pretty much the Kata culture in Taekwondo. There were more Karate gyms than Gwonbub gym in 1946, so Taekwondo is mostly of Karate influences, but Gwonbub still made the connection to Taekwondo; the people who learned Byungin Yoon's Gwonbub differentiate it from Karate. Also, Byungin Yoon must have learned Gwonbub besides any Kung Fu or Karate training to teach Gwonbub. Also, Byungin Yoon didn't have Karate training; he only taught Karate in Japan with Gwonbub knowledge. In any case, Taekwondo is tainted for me. I'm gonna cherish other Korean sports.


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## pdg (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Taekwondo is tainted for me. I'm gonna cherish other Korean sports.



And right here is from whence the desperation for purity stems.

You absolutely wanted to be able to prove (irrespective of any truth) that taekwondo was pure in it's Korean heritage.

Now that you can see that you can't bend the truth for your own ends, you reject it entirely because "it's tainted".


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## Gnarlie (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee, do you practice Taekwondo?

Have you practiced Karate?

Because trying to compare / contrast them realistically would require you to do so. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Earl Weiss (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> In any case, Taekwondo is tainted for me. I'm gonna cherish other Korean sports.



A. Tainted because it  traces it's roots back thru Japan - Okinawa - China?
B.   What other "Korean Sports"  do you refer to?

Baseball can likely trace it's roots to cricket. I don't consider it tainted .


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## andyjeffries (Jan 7, 2019)

Tez3 said:


> I would like to ask the OP if he trains martial arts if so what and to what standard?



On his Reddit posts on the same topic (where you can choose to display any "flair" you like, unlike here where it's related to posting quantity) he choose to put "Purple belt". That may not be his official rank, but it's relevant information.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 7, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Older references with inherited knowledge are more credible than recent references with imagination or agenda (bending logic to meet goals). Also, what's important is whether the sources are academically reputable. That being said, the way I conclude Taekwondo's origin is that it's a mix of Korean Gwonbub & Karate. But all the important techniques including rotation punch already existed in Gwonbub. Karate's influence is pretty much the Kata culture in Taekwondo. There were more Karate gyms than Gwonbub gym in 1946, so Taekwondo is mostly of Karate influences, but Gwonbub still made the connection to Taekwondo; the people who learned Byungin Yoon's Gwonbub differentiate it from Karate. Also, Byungin Yoon must have learned Gwonbub besides any Kung Fu or Karate training to teach Gwonbub.



Just remember, Kwonbeop is also practiced in China as Quanfa and Japan as Kenpo/Kempo. This isn't a purely Korean art.



Steven Lee said:


> Also, Byungin Yoon didn't have Karate training; he only taught Karate in Japan with Gwonbub knowledge.



I disagree with this last part. GM Yoon, Byung-in learnt Quanfa in Manchuria as a child. He then went to Japan and learned, then graded upto 5th Dan in Karate. He was the Karate Team Captain at Nihon University, Japan.  This is from the "Modern History of Taekwondo" book (pages 9 and 10 if you have it - I can share a scan of the pages if you don't).

So Grandmasters Kang, Won-sik and Lee, Kyeong-myong, after doing all the research they can for a published book, disagree with your point about GM Yoon never having any Karate training.


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## Tez3 (Jan 7, 2019)

andyjeffries said:


> On his Reddit posts on the same topic (where you can choose to display any "flair" you like, unlike here where it's related to posting quantity) he choose to put "Purple belt". That may not be his official rank, but it's relevant information.




I may be wrong but I don't think there's 'purple' belt in Korean styles? there is in Japanese styles though.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 7, 2019)

Tez3 said:


> I may be wrong but I don't think there's 'purple' belt in Korean styles? there is in Japanese styles though.



There is not in any "traditonal" Korean art. But there are plenty of orgs that teach Korean arts that have made up their own belt system. I seem to recall at least one that has a camo rank.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 7, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> There is not in any "traditonal" Korean art. But there are plenty of orgs that teach Korean arts that have made up their own belt system. I seem to recall at least one that has a camo rank.



And the Kukkiwon has explicitly stated they don't care what coloured belts dojangs use, nor even how many Geup ranks they use. A friend in Korea only uses 8 Geup ranks.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 7, 2019)

andyjeffries said:


> And the Kukkiwon has explicitly stated they don't care what coloured belts dojangs use, nor even how many Geup ranks they use. A friend in Korea only uses 8 Geup ranks.



That's certainly reasonable enough. It's not like rank has any real meaning outside the particular school that issued it.


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## JR 137 (Jan 7, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> That's a very long post that restates the same points over and over.


Every post is the same points over and over again. Here and the other thread. 

If you say it enough times, it has to come true.


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## JR 137 (Jan 7, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> My sources are reputable in all topics whatever you pretend to be the truth. My facts should be the official facts in all topics.
> 
> I just need objective honest people & all the respectable scholars in the world siding with me. I don't have to try hard persuading non-scholars or dishonest people in any topic.


This has to be best post I’ve read in quite some time.

We all know MY facts ARE the official facts in all topics. The sooner you accept it, the sooner you’ll truly become a scholar.

Edit: how do I use the above quote as my signature? I’ll cite my source


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## JR 137 (Jan 7, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> My sources are reputable respectable sources in any topic including Subak, Taekwondo's origin, Breaking's origin (& history), Korean street fighting games, whatever topic. Also, most of the references I quote are old references, which means greater credibility. Taekwondo is from YMCA Gwonbub Club, not from Karate. Karate copied Korea's 300 years old Gwonbub moves; Karate also copied Breaking/Tameshiwari which was never from martial art but performance art power circus self-created by trial & error (& power motion knowhow from Korean wrestling). I have reputable data, records on any topic; the question should be only whether my references are reputable or not.


Yup, they’re older sources, so they’re more credible. Because, you know, people from previous generations never lied.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 10, 2019)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Due to thread drift, the posts regarding Christopher Columbus have been split into a different thread: Christopher Colombus (Split from Taekwondo isn't from Karate...thread)

William H
@kempodisciple 
MartialTalk Moderator


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## punisher73 (Jan 11, 2019)

From the research I have come across, the korean martial arts we have today are NOT the ancient korean martial arts practiced in the past.  This is where the crux of the matter lies.  To use an example, we know the Greeks had a martial art called "Pankration" and we have pictures and documentation of it.  BUT, there is no martial tradition that taught the art that was passed on into modern times.  Jim Arvantis, "re-created" the martial art using modern methods and based it on the ancient documentation.

This is what happened in Korea.  There were ancient martial traditions, but they were not passed down as whole arts into the modern times.  Korea was VERY victimized by the Japanese occupation and wanted to eliminate that influence from their art.  The Koreans took their karate training (some did have kung fu training) and tried to re-create their ancient arts.  This is why TKD started to use emphasis on all the high kicks and varieties, it was tying it back to the older sport and it's own ancient cultural ties.

No one should be arguing that Korea didn't have its own martial arts.  But, it should be argued that none of those arts were passed down as whole methods to what we have now.  It's like the older argument that Karate didn't' come from kung fu because the Japanese didn't want to admit that their art was Chinese in nature.


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## Earl Weiss (Jan 14, 2019)

Interesting I got a dislike on my post #101

>>>QUOTE="S
Taekwondo founders don't say they are from Karate. .[/QUOTE]


Except - They did. You are wrong.<<<<<


 from someone who does not seem to be a participant in this thread.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2019)

Earl Weiss said:


> Interesting I got a dislike on my post #101
> 
> >>>QUOTE="S
> Taekwondo founders don't say they are from Karate. .
> ...


I’ve on occasion given a dislike rating to a post by accident, when I was scrolling through the thread in my phone.  My thumb hit the button on the screen and I didn’t even realize I had done it until the poster asked me what I disagreed with.


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## Earl Weiss (Jan 15, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I’ve on occasion given a dislike rating to a post by accident, when I was scrolling through the thread in my phone.  My thumb hit the button on the screen and I didn’t even realize I had done it until the poster asked me what I disagreed with.




Well then to Elder 999 what did you dislike bout my post #101?

>>[QUOTE="S
Taekwondo founders don't say they are from Karate. .[/QUOTE]


Except - They did. You are wrong.<<<<<


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2019)

Earl Weiss said:


> Well then to Elder 999 what did you dislike bout my post #101?
> 
> >>[QUOTE="S
> Taekwondo founders don't say they are from Karate. .




Except - They did. You are wrong.<<<<<[/QUOTE]
If you "@" their user name, they'll get a notification in their "alerts". Hey, @elder999 - this one's for you!


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## elder999 (Jan 16, 2019)

Earl Weiss said:


> Well then to Elder 999 what did you dislike bout my post #101?
> 
> >>[QUOTE="S
> Taekwondo founders don't say they are from Karate. .




Except - They did. You are wrong.<<<<<[/QUOTE]
Nothing. Meant to hit agree, as you well know...sorry!


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## Ivan (Jan 30, 2019)

Can you post a link of your sources? TKD has quite clearly been proven, as stated in JAMA (the Journal of Asian Martial Arts) that it was created somewhere around the 1950s.


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## JR 137 (Jan 30, 2019)

Ivan said:


> Can you post a link of your sources? TKD has quite clearly been proven, as stated in JAMA (the Journal of Asian Martial Arts) that it was created somewhere around the 1950s.


Don’t bother. Trust me.


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## Balrog (Feb 7, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Taekwondo isn't from Karate, it's from Korean Gwonbub that existed for 300 years. Taekwondo isn't from Karate.


Yes and no.

In 1910, Japan invaded Korea and held it until the end of WW2.  During that time, they made a concerted effort to kill off anyone they thought might put up a fight, and that included a lot of the traditional Korean martial arts guys.  Some of them hid out in the mountains and kept their art alive.

After the Korean conflict, When S. Korea was looking to create a national sport, they got all the survivor (what few were left) plus people who were trained in Shotokan and other Japanese styles and tried to do a "melting pot" sort of thing.  That was the origin of Taekwondo.

So, yes.  It has origins in karate.  But also, yes, it has origins in the traditional Korean martial arts that trace back to the Silla dynasty, almost a thousand years ago.


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## CB Jones (Feb 7, 2019)

Balrog said:


> After the Korean conflict, When S. Korea was looking to create a national sport, they got all the survivor (what few were left) plus people who were trained in Shotokan and other Japanese styles and tried to do a "melting pot" sort of thing. That was the origin of Taekwondo.



I don't think that is accurate.

The founders of the original Kwans began teaching karate and Kung fu.  Later they would unify under TKD and placed more emphasis on kicks due to the Korean History of Kick emphasized Korean Arts that were lost during Japan's occupation.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 7, 2019)

Balrog said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> In 1910, Japan invaded Korea and held it until the end of WW2.  During that time, they made a concerted effort to kill off anyone they thought might put up a fight, and that included a lot of the traditional Korean martial arts guys.  Some of them hid out in the mountains and kept their art alive.
> 
> ...



None of the founders claim to have been trained in these extinct arts. Yes, some of them made claims to a connection to those arts, but none of them claimed to have been trained in them. And they stopped making the claim because it was patently silly.


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## Balrog (Feb 8, 2019)

It was still around.  Mas Oyama claimed to have trained in it at an early age.  Whether he actually did or not, we only have his word for it.  Was it organized?  No, Oyama claimed that he learned it from a farmer.  

Still in all, the old Korean arts of Gwonbeop, Subak, et al.  do feature in the history of Taekwondo.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 8, 2019)

Balrog said:


> Still in all, the old Korean arts of Gwonbeop, Subak, et al.  do feature in the history of Taekwondo.



Yes. As history. Not as actual arts.


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## punisher73 (Feb 8, 2019)

Balrog said:


> It was still around.  Mas Oyama claimed to have trained in it at an early age.  Whether he actually did or not, we only have his word for it.  Was it organized?  No, Oyama claimed that he learned it from a farmer.
> 
> Still in all, the old Korean arts of Gwonbeop, Subak, et al.  do feature in the history of Taekwondo.



As I posted earlier in this thread.  Mas Oyama trained in Chinese Kempo when he was a child and then obtained a 2nd degree blackbelt in karate by age 18.  The word, "gwonbeop" is the korean rendition for kung fu, it was NOT an ancient korean art.  So, when Oyama states that he trained in "gwonbeop" as a child, he was saying that he trained in kung fu.  We know Oyama's training history and it has been well-documented, there have been NO sources that state he ever trained in a Korean martial art, just a quote written in Korean taken out of context to justify a postion.  Even Oyama NEVER said that he trained in a Korean martial art, he ALWAYS stated that he learned Chinese Kempo as a child and then karate (in reference to the striking arts, I also believe he studied Judo at some point).


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## JR 137 (Feb 8, 2019)

punisher73 said:


> As I posted earlier in this thread.  Mas Oyama trained in Chinese Kempo when he was a child and then obtained a 2nd degree blackbelt in karate by age 18.  The word, "gwonbeop" is the korean rendition for kung fu, it was NOT an ancient korean art.  So, when Oyama states that he trained in "gwonbeop" as a child, he was saying that he trained in kung fu.  We know Oyama's training history and it has been well-documented, there have been NO sources that state he ever trained in a Korean martial art, just a quote written in Korean taken out of context to justify a postion.  Even Oyama NEVER said that he trained in a Korean martial art, he ALWAYS stated that he learned Chinese Kempo as a child and then karate (in reference to the striking arts, I also believe he studied Judo at some point).


Several sources say Oyama was a 4th dan in Kodokan Judo. I haven’t seen much specific about his training, teachers, classmates, accolades, etc. though; it’s usually not much more than a mention about his rank.

What little I have read about his Judo experience was he quickly rose in rank due to his success in competition. But I don’t see any mention of any specific competitions nor opponents. Odd. There’s probably some specific stuff written somewhere out there, but I haven’t come across it. I’m not an Oyama historian, but I’ve read a bit more than the average bear.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> but I’ve read a bit more than the average bear.


@drop bear + @Ironbear24 / 2 = averagebear? 

We need a new member to sign up with that username.


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## drop bear (Feb 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> @drop bear + @Ironbear24 / 2 = averagebear?
> 
> We need a new member to sign up with that username.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 9, 2019)

Ivan said:


> Can you post a link of your sources? TKD has quite clearly been proven, as stated in JAMA (the Journal of Asian Martial Arts) that it was created somewhere around the 1950s.


Don't get him started again


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## _Simon_ (Feb 9, 2019)

(Good ol Stevey is just a liiiittle bit banned in case anyone was wondering...)


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2019)

drop bear said:


> View attachment 22096


With your gi, you'd fit right in, mate.


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## Balrog (Feb 16, 2019)

punisher73 said:


> As I posted earlier in this thread.  Mas Oyama trained in Chinese Kempo when he was a child and then obtained a 2nd degree blackbelt in karate by age 18.  The word, "gwonbeop" is the korean rendition for kung fu, it was NOT an ancient korean art.  So, when Oyama states that he trained in "gwonbeop" as a child, he was saying that he trained in kung fu.  We know Oyama's training history and it has been well-documented, there have been NO sources that state he ever trained in a Korean martial art, just a quote written in Korean taken out of context to justify a postion.  Even Oyama NEVER said that he trained in a Korean martial art, he ALWAYS stated that he learned Chinese Kempo as a child and then karate (in reference to the striking arts, I also believe he studied Judo at some point).


Then I stand corrected.  Thank you.


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 18, 2019)

drop bear said:


> View attachment 22096


Intensive Care Bears!


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## msmitht (Feb 28, 2019)

My late GM, Baek Moon Ku, was a student of the mudukwan under Hwang Kee. He said their forms were that of shotokan and kung fu. When he found himself at the 1st military base to teach taekwondo he was an instructor along with many others. He said they taught the new curriculum (ITF) the old way. He said there was Tae Kyon in a few rural villages when he left Korea in late 50's. He said that basically everything was based on judo, karate, kung fu or daitio ryu aiki jujitsu and given a different name. 
The real changes from the old ways came with the introduction of the sparring rules that allowed for full contact kicking but that's another story.


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## gorilla2 (Apr 28, 2019)

Taekwondo was influenced by Korean Culture and the Korean physical make up...if you train in Song Moo Kwon Taekwondo your transition too Shotokan Karate would be very easy...My son and Daughter original BB were from a Song Moo Kwan school...They later trained in Shotokan Karate learned all the Requirements of the school and achieved BB status in about 13 months...They Competed and won Nationals in Karate...My son actually competed for team USA in Mexico Jr Pan Am Championships...He latter stopped doing Karate to focus on TKD...In my opinion Taekwondo is a Korean adaptation of Shotokan Karate with a sprinkling of Kung Fu...


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## dvcochran (Apr 29, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Yes. As history. Not as actual arts.


I tend to agree with you on this. But can you absolutely say that there are NO technique in modern TSD/TKD/Kwans from Subak or Gwonbeop? That is an assumption I have always made to explain the obsessive connection by some. And country of origin.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 29, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I tend to agree with you on this. But can you absolutely say that there are NO technique in modern TSD/TKD/Kwans from Subak or Gwonbeop? That is an assumption I have always made to explain the obsessive connection by some. And country of origin.



You cannot prove a negative. But I don't need to. There's no evidence to support any claim that there IS, and that would be the assertion requiring proof.
And, of course, everything in TSD/TKD can absolutely be traced back to the founders stated training in Japanese arts (and a touch of Chinese).


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 30, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I tend to agree with you on this. But can you absolutely say that there are NO technique in modern TSD/TKD/Kwans from Subak or Gwonbeop? That is an assumption I have always made to explain the obsessive connection by some. And country of origin.


I don't think you need to. I favor the perspective which General Choi refers to. No one country or person can claim to have invented martial arts.  It is like inventing the wheel or discovering fire. hey are most likely discoveries and innovation that developed simultaneously in different locals.


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## MartialHermit8 (Sep 6, 2021)

Steven Lee said:


> It is conclusive. The writings & screenshots I showed explicitly say that Taekwondo's 1st generation people learned Gwonbub from Byungin Yoon. Hence, it's a conclusive fact that Taekwondo is from Korean Gwonbub, not from Karate. Karate probably copied Gwonbub. Also, it's a conclusive fact that Korean had a sport called Gwonbub documented 300 years ago. It's also conclusive how Taekwondo (with the root Korean Gwonbub in the early 20th century) & Korean Gwonbub 300 years ago look similar. It's conclusive that Taekwondo is from Gwonbub, not from Karate. The only question is what this Gwonbub is, and Korea had the same name sport with similar visual traits 300 years ago. That's good enough proof without moving goal post fallacy.


Yeah, sounds conclusive alright. I heard that there are some Korean sources that claim that Jesus was Korean, is it true?


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## MartialHermit8 (Sep 6, 2021)

Steven Lee said:


> As for Taekwondo's earliest gyms, you mean original 2 Kwans, Changmugwan & Pasaenggwan. From my sources, everyone learned Gwonbub from YMCA Gwonbub club (1946) & Chosunyeonmugwan Gwonbub Club. Even the Taekwondo people who called their art Toudi/Tangsu by linguistic influence learned from Byungin Yoon, according to my sources. Also, there should be physical evidences for YMCA Gwonbub club (1946) & Chosunyeonmugwan Gwonbub Club, paperwork & whatnot.
> 
> There are no videos to post on Taekwondo origin. There are photos, writings, screenshots.
> 
> What did 5 original Taekwondo Gwan say? That they learned Karate? No, according to my sources, they all learned Gwonbub. Korean Gwonbub 300 years ago looks different from Kung Fu & looks similar to today's Taekwondo & Karate because Karate probably copied it in 1922. Also, I don't see anything about 5 original Taekwondo Gwans saying about Karate other than that they sometimes called Taekwondo Tangsu/Toudi, which is from linguistic influence. I can't find "we learned Karate" from Korean Taekwondo gyms created after YMCA Gwonbub Club.


Teakwondo as well as Tangsoodo are pure Shotokan Karate copies. The unpractical circus kicks were added muuuuch later in order to add flashiness to attract new practitioners. Hell, Koreans in America were lying to their customers telling them that they are teaching Karate instead of TKD because nobody wanted to learn that crap in 1960s.

Flashy kicks in TKD are very very new, they appeared in an effort to add the "wow" factor, AND it did work, Teakwondo became an Olympic sport thanks to that. 

P.S. 
You can still find the original TKD, Koreans call it pro-Teakwondo, and it is looks almost exactly as Shotokan Karate, no acrobatic kicks at all.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 6, 2021)

MartialHermit8 said:


> Teakwondo as well as Tangsoodo are pure Shotokan Karate copies.


Incorrect. Derived from, yes. Copies? Hardly. Different forms, different stances, on and on and on.

Incidentally, you do know you're replying to a thread that's been dead for a couple years, right? The OP has long since been banned.


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## dvcochran (Sep 6, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> You cannot prove a negative. But I don't need to. There's no evidence to support any claim that there IS, and that would be the assertion requiring proof.
> And, of course, everything in TSD/TKD can absolutely be traced back to the founders stated training in Japanese arts (and a touch of Chinese).


This popped in my alerts; I realize it is an older thread.
But for grins and giggles:
Why do you say "You cannot prove a negative." It is one of the most common denominators in proving a logic path. Often times the process of cancellation is the easiest way to get as close to finite as possible.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 6, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> This popped in my alerts; I realize it is an older thread.
> But for grins and giggles:
> Why do you say "You cannot prove a negative." It is one of the most common denominators in proving a logic path. Often times the process of cancellation is the easiest way to get as close to finite as possible.


Mathematically, it may be possible. In argument, it is not. The classic examples are things like, "Prove sasquatch doesn't exist." Those are impossible to prove, because all we can ever do is show sasquatch is unlikely and/or isn't in a given place or set of places at a given time.

A negative can only be proven if the premises being challenged are self-contradictory, so the proof is in the inital assertion.


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## dvcochran (Sep 6, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Mathematically, it may be possible. In argument, it is not. The classic examples are things like, "Prove sasquatch doesn't exist." Those are impossible to prove, because all we can ever do is show sasquatch is unlikely and/or isn't in a given place or set of places at a given time.
> 
> A negative can only be proven if the premises being challenged are self-contradictory, so the proof is in the inital assertion.


You are correct. In most instances in the real world (my world anyway) is cancellation to a certain degree (nth) is satisfactory proof. For example, for positional purposes, a certain decimal place below zero is correct.

Example of evidentiary burden of proof:
You can prove a specific negative claim by providing contradictory evidence. An example of a proof of a rather specific negative claim by contradictory evidence would be if someone were to claim that the one and only watch that you own is in the top drawer of the desk.  You make the negative claim that it is not in the drawer and you see it clearly on your wrist.  There is no need to look in the drawer.  

Examples of negative logic resolution:
In mathematics, a *proof of impossibility*, also known as *negative proof*, proof of an *impossibility theorem*, or *negative result* is a proof demonstrating that a particular problem cannot be solved as described in the claim, or that a particular set of problems cannot be solved in general.[1] Proofs of impossibility often put decades or centuries of work attempting to find a solution to rest. To prove that something is impossible is usually much harder than the opposite task, as it is often necessary to develop a theory.[2] Impossibility theorems are usually expressible as negative existential propositions, or universal propositions in logic (see universal quantification for more).



Perhaps one of the oldest proofs of impossibility is that of the irrationality of square root of 2, which shows that it is impossible to express the square root of 2 as a ratio of integers. 
Another famous proof of impossibility was the 1882 proof of Ferdinand von Lindemann, showing that the ancient problem of squaring the circle cannot be solved,[3] because the number π is transcendental (i.e., non-algebraic) and only a subset of the algebraic numbers can be constructed by compass and straightedge. Two other classical problems—trisecting the general angle and doubling the cube—were also proved impossible in the 19th century.

I believe Pi is a great example of your argument. It goes on forever, but there is a point where it is more that satisfactory below the decimal.

There is no point in going down the mathematical rabbit hole to a fruitless result.

This is a great wiki. I have spent literal hours arguing the square root of 2 with young math kids.


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## Koryuhoka (Sep 6, 2021)

The traditional forms introduced by General Choi ARE Shuri(from Okinawa) kata. This is what Choi learned from Shotokan. Any others are an attempt to create their own identity as a martial art. Older Koreans I have asked have called it Korea's National Sport, claiming that Taek kyeon is one of their older arts.


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## MartialHermit8 (Sep 6, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Incorrect. Derived from, yes. Copies? Hardly. Different forms, different stances, on and on and on.
> 
> Incidentally, you do know you're replying to a thread that's been dead for a couple years, right? The OP has long since been banned.


Aww...That's a shame. Would like for him to answer some of my questions.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 6, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> You are correct. In most instances in the real world (my world anyway) is cancellation to a certain degree (nth) is satisfactory proof. For example, for positional purposes, a certain decimal place below zero is correct.
> 
> Example of evidentiary burden of proof:
> You can prove a specific negative claim by providing contradictory evidence. An example of a proof of a rather specific negative claim by contradictory evidence would be if someone were to claim that the one and only watch that you own is in the top drawer of the desk.  You make the negative claim that it is not in the drawer and you see it clearly on your wrist.  There is no need to look in the drawer.
> ...


It's nitpicking, but when you show the watch is on your wrist, you prove a positive. The real point is that a very specific, narrow claim can be disproven (in the case of the watch, you'd have to go the drawer to prove it isn't there). But disproving a broader claim is a logical impossibility in most cases. There are certainly edge cases, but they remain that. This, of course, is the nature of logical semantics. "Proof" is usually a binary thing. If there remains a situation that fits the original claim but which cannot be disproved by the evidence provided, the original claim isn't disproved.

It's kinda crap, but it's a problem with reasonable discussion, because people often defend indefensible claims by pointing out these situations that bypass the contradictory evidence.


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## elder999 (Sep 6, 2021)

Steven Lee said:


> Taekwondo isn't from Karate, it's from Korean Gwonbub that existed for 300 years. Taekwondo isn't from Karate. It's a misconception from how some called Taekwondo Toudi like they called Taekyun Judo, Jiujitsu with linguistic influence during Japanese occupation. Byungin Yoon, the father of Taekwondo, called it Gwonbub. It looks Gwonbub. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtgdlTKW0AAkVDl.jpg
> 
> "This content was organized by Master Cheolheui Park's testimony from 2005, recorded in the book "Gym oriented retrospect on Taekwondo Creation History". "I was born in 1933", "I was 15 when Master Byungin Yoon taught me Taekwondo, he called it Gwonbub".
> 
> ...







__





						curious
					

twinfist chip  I literally LOLd.



					www.martialtalk.com


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## dvcochran (Sep 7, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> It's nitpicking, but when you show the watch is on your wrist, you prove a positive. The real point is that a very specific, narrow claim can be disproven (in the case of the watch, you'd have to go the drawer to prove it isn't there). But disproving a broader claim is a logical impossibility in most cases. There are certainly edge cases, but they remain that. This, of course, is the nature of logical semantics. "Proof" is usually a binary thing. If there remains a situation that fits the original claim but which cannot be disproved by the evidence provided, the original claim isn't disproved.
> 
> It's kinda crap, but it's a problem with reasonable discussion, because people often defend indefensible claims by pointing out these situations that bypass the contradictory evidence.


It seems you are ebbing over into philosophy. It that realm there are 4 absolutes. 
I am a very heavy math/science nerd and and have a very strong faith but would argue that in the real world there are no absolutes. Yes, there are equations that solve for zero. But they are always conditional. A point in time if you will. 
That said, I would not go so far as to say there are semantics in logic. I think this circles back to your original statements; I suppose I would say most things are circumstantial but the facts of solving for 'X' , no matter how you get there all end up with the same functional result. 
This can get pretty wonky to consider spatially; when we have applications that have to meet in all three axis to five places below the decimal it gets pretty extreme sometimes. There are no causal considerations and every decision can end in true peril so, being anal about things would be an understatement.

This has been my weekend and it has truly been a challenge.


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## Buka (Sep 7, 2021)

I never looked at this thread until today. I read the first five pages. I'm going to save the last four until tonight, when I have a buzz on.

But I always did have a feeling that @simon invented TKD.


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## _Simon_ (Sep 8, 2021)

Buka said:


> I never looked at this thread until today. I read the first five pages. I'm going to save the last four until tonight, when I have a buzz on.
> 
> But I always did have a feeling that @simon invented TKD.


Darn tootin'!


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## Buka (Sep 8, 2021)

Don't read this thread when you're high.   Seriously.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2021)

Buka said:


> Don't read this thread when you're high.   Seriously.


I feel like I've missed some entertainment.


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## GMK Sa Bom Nim (Oct 25, 2022)

Highly entertaining (albeit an old) thread. A few facts, some nonsense, some faulty logic, but in the end just goes to show how much made up crap is being perpetuated by a lack of direct knowledge. So many non-practitioners simply do not understand what Taekwondo is and therefore, so many parents still refer to Taekwondo training as Karate lessons, even after their children have been in a Taekwondo program for months.


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## punisher73 (Oct 25, 2022)

GMK Sa Bom Nim said:


> Highly entertaining (albeit an old) thread. A few facts, some nonsense, some faulty logic, but in the end just goes to show how much made up crap is being perpetuated by a lack of direct knowledge. So many non-practitioners simply do not understand what Taekwondo is and therefore, so many parents still refer to Taekwondo training as Karate lessons, even after their children have been in a Taekwondo program for months.


So, going from the original premise.

Do you believe that TKD isn't originally from Japanese karate?


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## GMK Sa Bom Nim (Oct 25, 2022)

Did I say that? No, not at all. I believe some of the comments made early in the thread that contradict that premise are unfounded or at best, poorly supported. I am referencing the original poster's zealous defense of his alternate view regarding entirely different and absolute origin of Taekwondo.

I have trained under Grand Master Kim, Nam Souk, who was trained by Grand Master Uhm, Woon Kyu, who as you probably know, was one of Grand Master Lee, Won Kuk’s original and first students. I am fully in agreement that large portion of Taekwondo and specifically, the Chung Do Kwan style, comes from Shotokan Karate. Geiken Funakoshi, one of Master Lee's teachers was instrumental in bringing that style to Korea from Okinawa. Our dojang still practices the original Pyong-Ahn poomsae, which Master Lee incorporated from Shotokan karate. These poomsae are adapted from the Okinawan Pinan kata (called Heian in other parts of Japan). 

My statement about the lack of knowledge and parents calling Taekwondo, "Karate" was not in any way a comment on Taekwondo's origins, but rather that most non-practitioners do not know one martial art style from the next and that the knowledge demonstrated by some of the previous commenters in this thread were as negligible.


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## punisher73 (Oct 25, 2022)

GMK Sa Bom Nim said:


> Did I say that? No, not at all. I believe some of the comments made early in the thread that contradict that premise are unfounded or at best, poorly supported. I am referencing the original poster's zealous defense of his alternate view regarding entirely different and absolute origin of Taekwondo.
> 
> I have trained under Grand Master Kim, Nam Souk, who was trained by Grand Master Uhm, Woon Kyu, who as you probably know, was one of Grand Master Lee, Won Kuk’s original and first students. I am fully in agreement that large portion of Taekwondo and specifically, the Chung Do Kwan style, comes from Shotokan Karate. Geiken Funakoshi, one of Master Lee's teachers was instrumental in bringing that style to Korea from Okinawa. Our dojang still practices the original Pyong-Ahn poomsae, which Master Lee incorporated from Shotokan karate. These poomsae are adapted from the Okinawan Pinan kata (called Heian in other parts of Japan).
> 
> My statement about the lack of knowledge and parents calling Taekwondo, "Karate" was not in any way a comment on Taekwondo's origins, but rather that most non-practitioners do not know one martial art style from the next and that the knowledge demonstrated by some of the previous commenters in this thread were as negligible.


Ok.  just trying to spark some conversation.

What's funny is that in our area, TKD is very prevalent, so when people hear I study "karate" they always ask me how my "tkd training is going".


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 25, 2022)




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## _Simon_ (Oct 25, 2022)

Hahahaha ah this thread is a real throwback... good times!


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## J. Pickard (Nov 5, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> View attachment 29192


This is one of my favorites.


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