# Pan Gai Noon -  dead martial art?



## Doomx2001

I was curious as to if anyone had heard of the style still being taught in China? I know it influenced Uechi ryu and Goju ryu Karate. Uechi ryu as it was taught by the founder is said to be nothing more than pure Pan gai Noon. From Pan Gai Noon is where most karate styles get the form Sanchin (three battles) from. 
In case anybody is wondering, here is what Wikipedia has to say: 

_"*Pangai-noon* (traditional Chinese characters: &#21322;&#30828;&#36575;)[SUP][1][/SUP] was a style of Southern Chinese kung fu taught by Shu Shi Wa. It became the basis for Uechi-ry&#363; karate. The name Pangai-noon literally mean that the art's techniques are "half-hard, half-soft,"[SUP][2][/SUP] referring to hard strikes and soft blocks. The exact provenance of the romanization "Pangai-noon" is not clear, and it may be from the lesser-known Min Chinese dialect. It is not a Japanese, Okinawan or Mandarin Chinese pronunciation of the original characters.[SUP][3][/SUP] The standard Japanese pronunciation of the three characters is han k&#333; nan (&#12399;&#12435;&#12371;&#12358;&#12394;&#12435, while the standard Mandarin pronunciation is bàn yìng ru&#462;n. The Cantonese language pronunciation is bun ngaang yun. In modern times, the katakana version of pangainoon (&#12497;&#12531;&#12460;&#12452;&#12492;&#12540;&#12531 has been used in Japanese writing rather than the kanji (&#21322;&#30828;&#36575. 

Sh&#363; Shiwa (Chinese: Zhou Zihe &#21608;&#23376;&#21644; 1869-1945) was a teacher and Chinese medicine hawker in the Fujian province of China.[SUP][4][/SUP] His life is not well documented because of his probable connection with the secret societies which worked for the overthrow of the Qing dynasty and the restoration of Ming dynasty.[SUP][2]"[/SUP]_


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## punisher73

Just research the history of Uechi Ryu.  Pangai-noon is the name it went by until it was renamed "Uechi" in honor of the founder.  As far as it still being taught in China, don't think so.  There have been many attempts to backtrack Goju-Ryu and Uechi-Ryu to existing styles in China that look like that and there are similarities, but none that teaches the same four kata.

Both Goju-Ryu (including To'on Ryu) and Uechi-Ryu (the Naha-Te styles)were based on 4 kata.  Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiryu, and Suparenpei.  Although Uechi admitted to not learning all of it to pass on. If memory serves Higoanna and Uechi were located in a place where there was a large population of other Okinawans working.  Neither one of them traveled China and then found someplace to go learn kung fu, so for all we know now it could have just been a blending of other styles that were taught to the Okinawans there and not a "set style" like Hung Gar or other southern styles.


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## elder999

punisher73 said:


> Just research the history of Uechi Ryu. Pangai-noon is the name it went by until it was renamed "Uechi" in honor of the founder. As far as it still being taught in China, don't think so. There have been many attempts to backtrack Goju-Ryu and Uechi-Ryu to existing styles in China that look like that and there are similarities, but none that teaches the same four kata.
> 
> Both Goju-Ryu (including To'on Ryu) and Uechi-Ryu (the Naha-Te styles)were based on 4 kata. Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiryu, and Suparenpei. Although Uechi admitted to not learning all of it to pass on. If memory serves Higoanna and Uechi were located in a place where there was a large population of other Okinawans working. Neither one of them traveled China and then found someplace to go learn kung fu, so for all we know now it could have just been a blending of other styles that were taught to the Okinawans there and not a "set style" like Hung Gar or other southern styles.



I was under the impression that Uechi lived in China for 15 years, having emigrated there to avoid conscription into the Japanese army.....


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## Xue Sheng

One problem here with Pan Gai Noon, it appears to be Fujian dialect and that does not always translate well to Mandarin or Cantonese which means it may exist under a name that is rather different in translation that Pan Gai Noon. Or it could be indigenous to Fujian and all bets are off after that as to what it is, where it is, and if it still exists

And although it is always best to work from the Chinese characters when it comes to identification what you have there are traditional characters (&#21322;&#30828;&#36575 which are REALLY given to miss-translation. You need to find someone who can read them and mot all Chinese can (actually most likely can't) and when a person that knows only simplified tries to read traditional things can get strange


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## punisher73

elder999 said:


> I was under the impression that Uechi lived in China for 15 years, having emigrated there to avoid conscription into the Japanese army.....



He did lived in Fuzhou, got there in 1897 and got his certificate (although no one knows what happened to it) and opened a school in China in 1904.  Uechi was also trained in herbalism.  He left China after an incident where a student of his killed someone. My comment was that much like modern day "Chinatowns" across the US, Uechi was in China but stayed with the other Okinawans while there.

According to one source I have read, Uechi originally attempted to study at another dojo in Fuzhou that taught Kojo-Ryu but didn't stay.  Kojo-Ryu is what was taught to Higoanna and then became Goju-Ryu under Miyagi.


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## elder999

punisher73 said:


> .
> 
> According to one source I have read, Uechi originally attempted to study at another dojo in Fuzhou that taught Kojo-Ryu but didn't stay. Kojo-Ryu is what was taught to Higoanna and then became Goju-Ryu under Miyagi.




The way I heard it, Uechi _stu-stu-stu-*stuttered*_, and they made fun of him, so he left.....


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## arnisador

What I have heard is that it died out in China but survives as Uechi and its variants, some of which have been re-named Pangainoon again and claim to hew to the older version before Uechi's son modified it.


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## Doomx2001

Yeah, one of the reasons I ask about Pan Gai Noon is that it, along with many Kung Fu styles, seems to have died out after the Boxer Rebellion. Also, I was curious as to whether the style was still being studied in China or if Uechi studied something else with out knowing so.


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## Seizan

Hello all.  If I may, Id like to offer a bit of information that I gleaned from the past 30+ years here with UechiRyu teachers here on Okinawa, and especially with my last teacher who was a direct student of Uechi Kanbun Sensei.  Quite a lot of my information comes from the 1977 UechiRyu Kyohon (aka "The Big Blue Book"), reviewed, edited and finally approved by none other than Uechi Kanei Sensei (son of Kanbun Sensei).  This is not to say anyone must accept my input.  Feel free to accept or refute; I could be completely wrong, and will not debate.

First, pangainun (and its various spellings) is a descriptive phrase and does not exist as a single word in the Chinese language.  The phrase expresses a concept of half-hard, half-soft but this does not necessarily refer to soft blocks with hard strikes, or half-tense and half-relaxed, etc.  According to our contact in Fuzhou (where I am assured the dialect has not changed for many decades) the phrase describes the nature of a particular style of fighting, and applies to many such Chinese systems.

A thing that is half-hard is tough.  A thing that is half-softis flexible.  The phrase pangainun implies tough and flexible, not the literal dictionary translation of half-hard, half-soft.  It could well be used to describe tough love, a mental attitude, Michelin tires, or my homemade breakfast biscuits.  In this case, it refers to a Chinese fighting system.  Uechi Kanbun Sensei retained this description, which was seen on his dojo signboard in Wakayama (written in kana, not kanji).  He often stated that it was not a name, but a description of the training.  He did not use the true name but finally named the system UechiRyu around 1940, tactfully deleting public reference to the phrase Pangainun.

Pangainun has become widely accepted as a name today.  The inference is that a style called Pangainun is ostensibly closer to the original system taught by Shuu Shiwa to Kanbun Sensei over 100 years ago as opposed to contemporary UechiRyu (2nd-Generation Uechi Kanei Sensei's modified style of his father's system).

Uechi Kanbun studied in Fuzhou from 1897 to 1907, then taught for three years before closing his training hall and returning to Okinawa.  He was given a letter of introduction permitting him to teach what he was taught (we would consider that to be his teaching license today).  One story has it that he tore it off the wall where it was framed and ripped it up when he decided to leave China.  There are various stories about why he closed the school and left.

After he left China, Shuu Shiwa sent another of his students to teach in the same hall (which still exists).  This new teacher taught some of the same things Kanbun Sensei taught, but was trained extensively in another system by Shuu who knew 17 different animals systems.

Kanbun Sensei often expressed his regret at not remaining in China long enough to warrant learning Suparinpe, which would have been the fourth and crowning kata of UechiRyu had he learned it.

It is possible the system taught to Uechi Kanbun Sensei still survives in China today (in part or whole), as Shuu Shiwas training lineage still exists.  It wouldnt be surprising to learn that many teachers and training halls have gone undiscovered by non-Chinese practitioners for decades; we have examples of old-style systems still quietly existing on Okinawa while being unseen by visitors doing research into the contemporary versions of those very systems.

I hope this helps more than confuses

Seizan


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## Xue Sheng

Seizan said:


> First, &#8220;pangainun&#8221; (and its various spellings) is a descriptive phrase and does not exist as a single word in the Chinese language.  The phrase expresses a concept of &#8220;half-hard, half-soft&#8221; but this does not necessarily refer to soft blocks with hard strikes, or half-tense and half-relaxed, etc.  According to our contact in Fuzhou (where I am assured the dialect has not changed for many decades) the phrase describes the nature of a particular style of fighting, and applies to many such Chinese systems.



Not doubting or questioning any part of your post on Uechi Ryu history since I know nothing of Uechi Ryu or its history

The dialect has not changed in Fujian but it is a Fujian dialect which is rather hard to understand for many other Chinese Dialect speakers and very different from Mandarin, the national language of China and Cantonese another rather large dialect group that almost became the national dialect of China, however the writing system is a different matter. The characters provided (&#21322;&#30828;&#36575 are traditional and not simplified and most Chinese these days can't read traditional well. The best I can get out of it is hard and soft and that may be the confusion. I know someone who is trained in traditional Chinese Characters and I have asked her what the pinyin is and what the translate to. However this does not mean that they will not translate to the same exact thing but there are differences in traditional that if you only know simplified (and many Chinese today only know simplified) the translation can get weird.

And Going from the Fujian dialect to Mandarin or Cantonese can get equally as strange if that is being done based on the spoken dialect and both speakers better be well versed in Cantonese and/or Mandarin AND Fujian 

As to half hard half soft being tough and flexible, that is not a given in a country (China) that has as one of its categories of martial arts Hard/Soft which is more to External/Internal than it is too tough/flexible and the dates you are using are later than the 1600s and it was after that the whole Internal/External categories appeared so I would tend to lean towards it being considered more of an Internal/External art like White Crane is sometimes called or Xingyiquan is occasionally referred to as and even Wing Chun is sometimes placed in that category as opposed to Taijiquan, Baguazhang, (usually) Xingyiquan being Internal and things like Long Fist, Bajiquan, Fu Jow Pai being External.

But then I am looking at this from a Chinese perspective and since it is more of a Japanese perspective on a Chinese marital art it could be tough and flexible


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## punisher73

elder999 said:


> The way I heard it, Uechi _stu-stu-stu-*stuttered*_, and they made fun of him, so he left.....



I had also heard it was a speech impediment of some kind.  But, I have never heard accounts of okinawan students ever mentioning it or american students.


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## punisher73

Xue Sheng said:


> Not doubting or questioning any part of your post on Uechi Ryu history since I know nothing of Uechi Ryu or its history
> 
> The dialect has not changed in Fujian but it is a Fujian dialect which is rather hard to understand for many other Chinese Dialect speakers and very different from Mandarin, the national language of China and Cantonese another rather large dialect group that almost became the national dialect of China, however the writing system is a different matter. The characters provided (&#21322;&#30828;&#36575 are traditional and not simplified and most Chinese these days can't read traditional well. The best I can get out of it is hard and soft and that may be the confusion. I know someone who is trained in traditional Chinese Characters and I have asked her what the pinyin is and what the translate to. However this does not mean that they will not translate to the same exact thing but there are differences in traditional that if you only know simplified (and many Chinese today only know simplified) the translation can get weird.
> 
> And Going from the Fujian dialect to Mandarin of Cantonese can get equally as strange I that is being done based on the spoken dialect and both speakers better be versed in Cantonese and/or Mandarin AND Fujian
> 
> As to half hard half soft being tough and flexible, that is not a given in a country (China) that has as one of its categories of martial arts Hard/Soft which is more to External/ Internal than it is too tough/flexible and the dates you are using are later than the 1600s and it was after that the whole Internal/External categories appeared so I would tend to lean towards it being considered more of an Internal/External art like White Crane is sometimes called or Xingyiquan is occasionally referred to as and even Wing Chun is sometimes placed in that category as opposed to Taijiquan, Baguazhang, (usually) Xingyiquan being Internal and things like Long Fist, Bajiquan, Fu Jow Pai being External.
> 
> But then I am looking at this from a Chinese perspective and since it is more of a Japanese perspective on a Chinese marital art it could be tough and flexible



I will have to find it somewhere, but in one of the Uechi-ryu books (either big blue or Mattson's book) there is a picture of the characters that were originally used for pangai noon.


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## punisher73

arnisador said:


> What I have heard is that it died out in China but survives as Uechi and its variants, some of which have been re-named Pangainoon again and claim to hew to the older version before Uechi's son modified it.



As far as I know the "variants" of Uechi-ryu all teach the same system as it was laid out by Kanei Uechi (with the help of other senior students), I don't know of any that only teach the orginal 3 kata.  Pangai Noon for example, utilizes all the supplementary kata as well (Kanshiwa, Kanshu, Seichin, Seirui, Kanchin) that were created to help bridge the gap between the other 3 kata.  I had read somewhere that the name changes were due to issues of using the family name of "Uechi" so some groups used a different name.  It also seems to be the groups still on Okinawa that renamed, and the US based schools I have come across all say Uechi-Ryu.


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## Xue Sheng

&#21322;&#30828;&#36575; might be "ban4 ying4 ruan3" in Mandarin. However I do not read Chinese characters at all well, and I don't read traditional at all, so I could be way wrong on this


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## Doomx2001

Seizan said:


> Hello all.  If I may, I&#8217;d like to offer a bit of information that I gleaned from the past 30+ years here with UechiRyu teachers here on Okinawa, and especially with my last teacher who was a direct student of Uechi Kanbun Sensei.  Quite a lot of my information comes from the 1977 UechiRyu Kyohon (aka "The Big Blue Book"), reviewed, edited and finally approved by none other than Uechi Kanei Sensei (son of Kanbun Sensei).  This is not to say anyone must accept my input.  Feel free to accept or refute; I could be completely wrong, and will not debate.
> 
> First, &#8220;pangainun&#8221; (and its various spellings) is a descriptive phrase and does not exist as a single word in the Chinese language.  The phrase expresses a concept of &#8220;half-hard, half-soft&#8221; but this does not necessarily refer to soft blocks with hard strikes, or half-tense and half-relaxed, etc.  According to our contact in Fuzhou (where I am assured the dialect has not changed for many decades) the phrase describes the nature of a particular style of fighting, and applies to many such Chinese systems.
> 
> A thing that is &#8220;half-hard&#8221; is &#8220;tough&#8221;.  A thing that is &#8220;half-soft&#8221;is &#8220;flexible&#8221;.  The phrase &#8220;pangainun&#8221; implies &#8220;tough and flexible&#8221;, not the literal dictionary translation of &#8220;half-hard, half-soft&#8221;.  It could well be used to describe tough love, a mental attitude, Michelin tires, or my homemade breakfast biscuits.  In this case, it refers to a Chinese fighting system.  Uechi Kanbun Sensei retained this description, which was seen on his dojo signboard in Wakayama (written in kana, not kanji).  He often stated that it was not a name, but a description of the training.  He did not use the true name but finally named the system &#8220;UechiRyu&#8221; around 1940, tactfully deleting public reference to the phrase &#8220;Pangainun&#8221;.
> 
> &#8220;Pangainun&#8221; has become widely accepted as a name today.  The inference is that a style called &#8220;Pangainun&#8221; is ostensibly closer to the original system taught by Shuu Shiwa to Kanbun Sensei over 100 years ago as opposed to contemporary UechiRyu (2nd-Generation Uechi Kanei Sensei's modified style of his father's system).
> 
> Uechi Kanbun studied in Fuzhou from 1897 to 1907, then taught for three years before closing his training hall and returning to Okinawa.  He was given a letter of introduction permitting him to teach what he was taught (we would consider that to be his teaching license today).  One story has it that he tore it off the wall where it was framed and ripped it up when he decided to leave China.  There are various stories about why he closed the school and left.
> 
> After he left China, Shuu Shiwa sent another of his students to teach in the same hall (which still exists).  This new teacher taught some of the same things Kanbun Sensei taught, but was trained extensively in another system by Shuu who knew 17 different animals systems.
> 
> Kanbun Sensei often expressed his regret at not remaining in China long enough to warrant learning Suparinpe, which would have been the fourth and crowning kata of UechiRyu had he learned it.
> 
> It is possible the system taught to Uechi Kanbun Sensei still survives in China today (in part or whole), as Shuu Shiwa&#8217;s training lineage still exists.  It wouldn&#8217;t be surprising to learn that many teachers and training halls have gone &#8220;undiscovered&#8221; by non-Chinese practitioners for decades; we have examples of old-style systems still quietly existing on Okinawa while being unseen by visitors doing research into the contemporary versions of those very systems.
> 
> I hope this helps more than confuses&#8230;
> 
> Seizan




So, Pangai Noon  as it just describes the concept of the art that Uechi learned, I guess my next question is: What martial art did Uechi learn? What did Shuu Shiwa teach, and who are some of his students? Sorry for so many questions, but Pangai Noon has been something I've been curious about for some time.


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## punisher73

Doomx2001 said:


> So, Pangai Noon  as it just describes the concept of the art that Uechi learned, I guess my next question is: *What martial art did Uechi learn? What did Shuu Shiwa teach*, and who are some of his students? Sorry for so many questions, but Pangai Noon has been something I've been curious about for some time.



That is the big question, and outside of speculation...no one knows really.  Uechi-Ryu didn't happen in a vacuum, and I think it is important to look at another very close source for some other parrellels.  Kanryo Higashionna went to Fuzhou in 1877 and then returned to Okinawa in 1882 and began teaching karate.  Higashionna never gave a name to what he did and it was commonly just referred to as Naha-te since that is where he taught it.  Higashionna's most famous student Chojun Miyagi went to China in 1915 and attempted to locate the school that Higashionna trained in, but was unable to locate it due to the Boxer Rebellion.  One of Miyagi's students (Shinsato) gave a demonstration and when asked what the name of the style was he made up a name and called it "half hard", after that Miyagi name it Goju-Ryu meaning hard/soft.

So what does this have to do with Uechi-Ryu?  Uechi and Higashionna both went to Fuzhou and learned a form of kung fu that both gave the name to as hard/soft and neither one of them had a formal name for it, just what they did.  Both of them returned from China with the same set of base kata (Uechi was minus the last-Suparenpei), and before changing it, Higashionna's Sanchin kata was almost exactly the same as Uechi's Sanchin kata.  It is reasonable to believe that they studied the same material only 20 years apart.

Both groups have tried to back track and identify the actual name of the style.  The closest I have seen is that the Gojukai believes that Goju-ryu came from "Chinese Nanpa Shorin-Ken".  Which ultimately is a generic term for the Southern Shaolin 5 Elders.  Others have also noted that Five Ancestors Boxing looks very similiar to these styles.


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## Xue Sheng

OK here is the translation of &#21322;&#30828;&#36575; and it is no surprise - partial hard soft.

But here is the surprise, no Chinese would put this together that way so she thinks it comes from the Japanese side of things

This would then mean looking for this in China with &#21322;&#30828;&#36575; will likely get you nowhere


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## arnisador

Shuu Shiwa's original training hall still exists? Too cool! Pictures?


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## Seizan

Hello again.

I can&#8217;t argue linguistic idiosyncrasies of languages I do not speak.  I can only offer this fact &#8211; if it contradicts the info of others, I won&#8217;t debate it.  Our contact in Fuzhou &#8211; a native well-to-do businessman &#8211; told us that the term or phrase &#8220;pan-gai-nun&#8221; has the local cultural meaning of &#8220;tough and flexible&#8221; in Fuzhou.  It may well mean simply &#8220;half-hard-soft&#8221;, or internal-external, or hard-style-soft-style, etc. elsewhere.  &#8220;Dressing a hog&#8221; has one meaning in the hills of Tennessee, and another meaning on 42nd Street in NYC&#8230;

One of the problems with translating Asian languages into Western language is that often a single kanji or phrase will pack deep meaning or imply an extensive cultural application.  I believe many &#8220;translations&#8221; are just compressed dictionary definitions, while what we need are more knowledgeable interpretations.  It&#8217;s possible that much understanding has been lost in favor of convenience in translation.

To add to the confusion, as Xue Sheng tells, we also have simple and traditional Chinese (and there are older meanings to kanji that are not used today as well), and other Chinese dialects that don&#8217;t translate well into each other...

Today the term Pangainun is simply translated as &#8220;half-hard-soft&#8221; and is imbued with little deeper cultural meaning.

Uechi Kanbun Sensei told his student Toyama Seiko that the system was described in Fuzhou as &#8220;a pangainun system&#8221;.  This (plus the info from our Fuzhou contact) implies (to me at least) that the kanji combination was not a Japanese invention.  We are not sure if the original Chinese system had many more forms, since we only hear of three that comprise the old UechiRyu system, and Suparinpe (not learned by Kanbun Sensei) as a fourth.  I am under the impression there were a few or several other in-between forms that were not preserved.  Kanbun Sensei told that he knew a fourth form (not Suparinpe) but felt it was of little value, and so never taught it.

Kanbun Sensei named the system &#8220;UechiRyu Karate Jutsu&#8221; in 1940.  His son Kanei Sensei changed it to &#8220;UechiRyu KarateDo&#8221; sometime shortly after Kanbun Sensei&#8217;s death.

Bringing it closer to home and the opening question &#8211; does the original system still exist?  Toyama Sensei taught us the style of performance that he was taught by Kanbun Sensei.  However, we (UechiRyu Zankyokai) also use the &#8220;added five&#8221; forms in addition to the original three from China.  We perform them using old-style technique though, and it does differ from mainstream UechiRyu.  So as far as I can tell, the performance style taught by Kanbun Sensei still exists, but even Toyama Sensei wouldn&#8217;t state absolutely that it was what Shuu Shiwa taught &#8211; because he didn&#8217;t see it.  He did tell us that he was teaching what Kanbun Sensei taught him, and that Kanbun Sensei used to precede training with &#8220;This was taught to me by Shuu Sensei, like this&#8230;&#8221;.  Toyama Sensei told us he believed Kanbun Sensei, but since he didn&#8217;t witness Shuu Shiwa&#8217;s performance himself, he couldn&#8217;t say definitely.

Finally, about 35 years ago a small delegation &#8211; just two or three people &#8211; from Fuzhou visited Okinawa.  They were elderly students from the old training hall where Kanbun Sensei originally taught.  They were direct students of both Kanbun Sensei and the teacher who replaced him when he left China.  They fully expected to reunite with their old teacher, hoping to find a very old but healthy Uechi Kanbun living and possibly still teaching on Okinawa.  At the Futenma Dojo they were treated to a demonstration of the modified system as taught by Uechi Kanei Sensei.  They politely inquired whether there were any other direct students of Kanbun Sensei active who still trained as Kanbun Sensei taught (referring to the older performance style).  Kanei Sensei himself sent them to see Toyama Sensei in Zakimi.

After talking and exchanging demonstrations of style and technique with Toyama Sensei, the visitors were fully satisfied that someone outside of China was practicing much the same as they.  They showed some different forms (the 2nd teacher was trained in a different but related style), but the same Sanchin and other training exercises, drills, etc.

So does the original system described as &#8220;pangainun&#8221; still exist?  We don&#8217;t know, actually.  But the performance style of Uechi Kanbun Sensei still exists, as left to the us by Toyama Seiko Sensei, who believed his teacher when he said it was as Shuu Shiwa taught him in China.

There are photos of the hall where Kanbun Sensei was taught, and a few photos taken of Shuu Shiwa's home in Zhita (sp?).  Also photos of the lineage board listing Shuu Shiwa, his teachers, and his descendent students and teachers of today.  However this material is not mine but another researcher's, and I can't jump his research.  The Chinese visitors left their card with Toyama Sensei; it must be among his preserved belongings.  If his daughter Naomi Sensei finds it, we will be able to write them and get further information.

At that, I prefer to take further discussion or inquiries about UechiRyu (old or new style) off-line.  I think you can contact me via the e-mail link in my profile.  Don&#8217;t want to hijack the thread and wear out my welcome&#8230;


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## Seizan

Can photos be posted in these threads?  I have the calligraphy for Pangainun, also the Wakayama Dojo sign with PangainunRyu in kana if anyone is interested.

The photo of the dojo sign was a bit faded so my wife Sumako recreated the sign in a second panel to clarify the kanji etc.  I have a translation and explanation of the sign as well.


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## Seizan

Oops...

In my previous long-winded diatribe I wrote:

But the performance style of Uechi Kanbun Sensei still exists, as left to the us by Toyama Seiko Sensei, ...

S/B "as left to us by Toyama Seiko Sensei ...  Not "the us"...


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## Xue Sheng

Seizan said:


> To add to the confusion, as Xue Sheng tells, we also have simple and traditional Chinese (and there are older meanings to kanji that are not used today as well), and other Chinese dialects that dont translate well into each other...


 
Xue Sheng also said,,, 

The translation of &#21322;&#30828;&#36575; and it is no surprise - "partial hard soft".

The surprise is that no Chinese person would put this together this way 

The person that did the translation is form Mainland China and rather well trained in Traditional Characters.

So, although I do not doubt a connection to Fujian I do feel that trying to find the art of origin, in China, with these characters &#21322;&#30828;&#36575; could make it rather difficult. However it is possible that if you found someone (college/university professor), in China, who was researching Chinese martial arts (and there are a few that are) he may be able to figure out what martial art, in Fujian, these characters &#21322;&#30828;&#36575; are supposed to represent. Basically you would need a person who is versed in traditional Chinese characters, like the woman I had look at them, and someone who was well versed in Chinese martial arts history. My translator is well versed in Traditional Chinese Medicine not CMA.

Personally I still think you are looking for an art that was categorized as internal/external and there is an art that is in Fujian, that I know of, that is and that is Fujian White Crane. However there could very likely be more that are still in existence as well as many that are now extinct


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## punisher73

Seizan said:


> Can photos be posted in these threads?  I have the calligraphy for Pangainun, also the Wakayama Dojo sign with PangainunRyu in kana if anyone is interested.
> 
> The photo of the dojo sign was a bit faded so my wife Sumako recreated the sign in a second panel to clarify the kanji etc.  I have a translation and explanation of the sign as well.



Yes, when you go to make a post, right above the text box where you write there are icons.  The 4th from the right is for pictures.  Click on that and you can either upload from your computer or link to a webiste picture.

I really enjoy reading the history that you have put up and don't think you are overstaying your welcome at all.


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## punisher73

A video of Tohyama Seiko Sensei performing Sanseiryu, enjoy


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## TimoS

Seizan said:


> Kanbun Sensei named the system UechiRyu Karate Jutsu in 1940.



I am curious about this, because I remember reading somewhere that the renaming to Uechi ryu was done after the death of Kanbun Uechi. Of course, being a Shorin ryu student, I haven't really looked so much into the histories of other karate styles, when there's so much that is unclear even in what I study 


---
"Look. Listen. Sweat." - Morio Higaonna

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Xue Sheng

Not really knowing Uechi Ryu but after watching the video of Tohyama Seiko Sensei performing Sanseiryu I started to think more about Fujian White Crane


Fujian White Crane Kung Fu, 1st form, San Zhan






Fujian White Crane Kung Fu 2nd form 'Shi San Tai Bao






And this one is intersting because Yong Chun is Mandarin for the Cantonese Wing Chun

yong chun White Crane Kung Fu San Zhan


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## clfsean

Don't forget Ngo Cho Kuen (Wuzu Quan). It's another Fujian special!!

[video=youtube_share;nTSjQBpnZDk]http://youtu.be/nTSjQBpnZDk[/video]


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## arnisador

punisher73 said:


> A video of Tohyama Seiko Sensei performing Sanseiryu, enjoy



So much rocking in his motion--many styles would of Karate be very negative on that! I studied Uechi briefly in RI and liked it a lot.


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## Seizan

Hello again...

The "rocking" might be viewed as fluid-type motion than is seen in most contemporary versions of UechiRyu.  Think of a soft flexible whip vs. a hard tough cane or staff.  Both are going to hit you hard, no one's going to argue that one is better than the other when they both do the job so well...

Toyama Sensei told us that Kanbun Sensei did not have a stutter or any such speech impediment.  I prefer not to get into the "why" that some folks tell he did have such a problem.  I find no verifiable documentation that his son Kanei Sensei mentioned such a thing, either.

I am unable to attach personal photos or images from my own files.  I get only an option to attach an image from some other URL.  Most of those which I wish to post are not on any URL but in my own images file.  If someone can guide me in posting such images, I'll supplement this post later.  For now, I'll just press on with modified explanations (sans graphics).

The Wakayama Dojo signboard was recreated by my wife Sumako and placed next to the original photo of the signboard from around 1936.  It was lifted from my old website and has been showing up here and there on others' sites.  We don't really mind; she didn't put much into it (she just dashed it onto the paper, not realizing I would use it for essays) and wants to redo it with better-quality kanji later.  I found the poor-quality repro online and post the URL below, since I can't post a better copy from my own files.

Typing the word "pangainoon" (as a single word and with that spelling) into Google Search will bring up several examples of the kanji.

I can't post the dictionary scans.

Sorry this might prove a bit clumsy for some following the thread....  

~~~~~
(From an unpublished work)

The Words Pan Gai Nun and the Wakayama Dojo Signboard

The Japanese pronunciation for these kanji is "han ko nan".  In both Chinese and Japanese, the kanji are the same (Japan got its kanji from China in the first place).  "Han ko nan" means half-hard-soft and was taken as a name for one or more UechiRyu-related associations here on Okinawa (Hankonan Ryu, Konan Ryu, etc.).

"Pangainun" does not exist as a single word in Chinese and as such will not be found in any dictionary.  Only by defining its kanji components can we find "half hard soft".

Following is information from a dictionary of shared Chinese-Japanese kanji.  These are Chinese kanji characters with their Japanese pronunciations.

Pan is also "ban".  In Japanese it is pronounced "han" and means "half".

The Chinese Gai is also pronounced "kowai" in Japanese - a similar pronunciation.  When it is pronounced "ko" in modern Japanese it means "strong" (as in "tough, or durable").  If it is pronounced "katai" or "kowai" in modern Japanese, it means "hard".

Nun (also spelled non) is pronounced "nan" in Japanese and means weak or soft, depending on its usage.  The word "yawarakai" is included the definition, related to "yawakasa" - one of the three main teachings of the older UechiRyu style.

Now lets examine the signboard of the Wakayama Dojo.  The sign and the clarified calligraphy are posted on this site:

http://cablemodem.fibertel.com.ar/diegokarate/fotos/fotos_indice_3.html

This is a photograph of the signboard.  Beside it, closely matching the positions of the original symbols, is a clearer representation supplied by Sumako (my wife).  The sign reads from right to left, and from top to bottom of each column. 

The three columns of the sign read as follows:

Pan Gai Nun Ryu
Kara Te Jutsu Kenkyu Sho
Kyoshi Uechi Kanbun

Translation:

Half-hard-soft Style (or Method)
Empty-Hand Skills Study Place (or Study Hall)
Teacher, Uechi Kanbun

Pan Gai Nun is written in kana  Japanese symbols used for phonetic pronunciation of foreign words.  Appended to the bottom of the right column of kana is the kanji symbol Ryu (style or method).  The rest of the sign is Japanese kanji.

The information shown plainly in the photograph of the signboard contrasts somewhat with a report written by Mabuni Kenwa Sensei, the founder of ShitoRyu KarateDo.

In The Story of Chinese Chuan-fa by Mabuni Kenwa (originally published in Karate Kenkyu, 1934 pg. 92-93.), translated by Mario McKenna, we find the following: 

My student and I were traveling on business. On the last day, we visited Higashi Kawagan-machi in WakayamaCity. On the way there the first thing I noticed was a signboard on the left. It read, Pangainun-ryu Toudi Master; Uechi Kanbun, Instructor. 

At the age of 20, Uechi had traveled to China and trained in pure Chinese style chuan-fa for more than 13 years and returned an expert. I was impressed by the sign board which was in the Chinese style.

According to photographic evidence, the sign was not in the Chinese style - nor did it read quite as described by Mabuni Sensei.


----------



## Seizan

Another Oops...  My keyboard occasionally disagrees with my fingers that don't keep up with my thoughts very well.

Where I post

The "rocking" might be viewed as fluid-type motion than is seen in most contemporary versions of UechiRyu.

I meant to say it is *NOT* seen in most contemporary performances or training of UechiRyu.

Arnisador, if you studied UechiRyu in RI, I would guess it was Mr. Earle's dojo.  They followed Kanei Sensei's performance style.


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## punisher73

Seizan said:


> Another Oops...  My keyboard occasionally disagrees with my fingers that don't keep up with my thoughts very well.
> 
> Where I post
> 
> The "rocking" might be viewed as fluid-type motion than is seen in most contemporary versions of UechiRyu.
> 
> I meant to say it is *NOT* seen in most contemporary performances or training of UechiRyu.
> 
> Arnisador, if you studied UechiRyu in RI, I would guess it was Mr. Earle's dojo.  They followed Kanei Sensei's performance style.



Other than the video I posted of Toyama Sensei performing Sanseiryu, I haven't seen much of his approach.  How does his approach compare with Shinyu Gushi?  
I see slight differences, but I don't know if that is in approach or in the purpose for the demonstration of the form.





If you don't mind my asking.  How did Toyama's approach to Kanshiwa differ from more modern versions?  I know, most do the regular fist for the punches, and I have seen Gushi Sensei's version and he uses the one knuckle punch instead.  I have seen others take out the toe kick and use a more modern kick ball kick. What is meant by "the old techniques" as you are defining it?

I find Uechi Ryu to be a beautiful style that kept it's chinese influence more than any other okinawan style I have come across, and I'm always looking to learn more about it.

As a side note, Kanei Uechi's "Blue Book" that sells for around $1500-$2000 for an actual copy can be found on kindle for $10 for those that want the information.  Also, George Mattson's book on Uechi Ryu is also on kindle for around the same price (instead of the big pricetag for a paper copy).


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## Xue Sheng

Very few CMA styles do what Fujian White Crane is doing in its forms and, at least to me, Fujian White Crane looks a lot like Uechi Ryu


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## Seizan

Hello!

I may be delayed in responding from time to time; we are in the middle of a typhoon right now and the Net is up and down.  Taking the dog out for a walk would be more like flying a kite...

I can't comment on Gushi Sensei's performance style except to say it is not the same.  To an experienced UechiRyu practioner, the differences are obvious.  One might say the emphasis on certain aspects of the performances are opposite but equally valid.  Toyama Sensei was a direct student of Kanbun Sensei, and I am convinced his performance style is the same as his teacher's.

This is becoming less a Chinese MA discussion and more a karate discussion.  We can either move it over to the Karate section, or take it off line privately.  But to answer the question about Kanshiwa, it is permitted in our dojo to use either shoken (one-knuckle strike) or seiken (full fist punch) for the three strikes at the beginning.


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## arnisador

Seizan said:


> Arnisador, if you studied UechiRyu in RI, I would guess it was Mr. Earle's dojo.  They followed Kanei Sensei's performance style.



Yes, that's where I studied--over 20 years ago and only briefly while in school. I didn't fully 'get it' at the time, coming from Isshin-ryu and Goju-ryu and expecting another standard Okinawan style. But later I came to better understand the approach.


----------



## Doomx2001

Seizan said:


> Hello!
> This is becoming less a Chinese MA discussion and more a karate discussion.  We can either move it over to the Karate section, or take it off line privately.




But here is the gray area, there are people in Uechi ryu who say that Kanbun Uechi did not modify what he was taught, he taught his students exactly as he was taught in China. So, Uechi ryu could just be pure southern Chinese kung fu. Besides, when comes to Pangai Noon, you really can't have much of a discussion of it without bringing up Uechi ryu at some point. Also, if you want to examine the origins of Pangai Noon, the Chinese martial arts part of Martial Talk forum would be the best area to do that in as the people here might have more of an idea of Pangai arts there could be in China. 

Also, thank you for all your input, it really adds the discussion.


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## Doomx2001

So far this is the closest video I can find that resembles Sanchin: This is Wuzu SanChiem by Master Zhang:


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## elder999

I posted this in another thread, but I think it's relevant here as well:



elder999 said:


> So, this took a little while for me to prepare, sorry, but I still wanted to share it.
> 
> *Sanchin *is thought to be the oldest kata in karate. It literally means "three battles" or "three conflicts", and it can also be translated as "three points" or "three phases Sanchin kata seeks to develop three _sets _of elements at the same time:
> 
> 
> The mind, body and the techniques
> The internal organs, circulation and the nervous system, and
> The three *ki*, located in: the top of the head, (_tento_), the diaphragm (_har_a), and the lower abdomen (_tanden_)
> 
> Kyokushin_ Sanchin, _and sanchin in general, are isometric katas, where each move is performed in a state of complete tension, accompanied by powerful, deep breathing (_ibuki_) that originates in the lower abdomen (_tan den_). The practice of Sanchin kata not only leads to the strengthening of the body, but it also aims at the development of inner power (_ki_) and the coordination of mind and body. It also emphasizes basic footwork, hand techniques as well as basic blocking techniques, and a fair amount of strategy: it not only teaches overall breath control, but is a tool of learning _in no dori,_ to move in while an attacker is inhaling, or at the moment in between inhalation and exhalation. It, along with the kata _tensho_-what many consider the sister to _sanchin_-teaches the use of the rotation of the hand and wrist, leading and redirecting an opponent, and adding ones power to their own.
> 
> One can find several versions of this kata performed, with and without the tension-including more than one Chinese form called Three Battles, related to White Crane, Heres a _really cool_ video I found of Morio Higaonna of Goju ryu, Shin Gushi of Uechi ryu/pangainoon, and two Chinese masters Im completely unfamiliar with., Chen Jian Feng and a Master Pan, each demonstrating their respective version:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And heres Shin Gushi, performing Uechi ryus sanchin kata, again:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heres the kyokushin version I learned as a kid-a bit more _apparent_ tension than most other forms, but not really any tenser:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Morio Hagionna, of Goju ryu, again:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heres Angi Uezi performing Isshin ryus sanchin kata, with tension:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but Ive also seen Isshin ryu people do it without tension.
> 
> And heres Toyama Seiko, another Uechi ryu master, performing another kata, at the age of 74:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I posted the last video to demonstrate what several of these gentlemen show, though_, the true benefit of sanchin kata_: vigor and strength into old age. Strength and vitality throughout ones life are intimately tied to breathing and breath control, and this practice-_done properly as part of an overall training program_-contributes to longevity and vitality. Im living proof of that-Im not supposed to be breathing at all, at this age, or even to have reached this age, never mind still be breathing pretty darned well. I happen to know that Shin Gushi, who was about 68 when his video was done, smokes like a chimney. I also learned the Uechi version from my friend, Andre Tippett, about 25 years ago, and I practice both forms. I believe the open hands are the original martial application, and also allow for better _ki_ development and flow, and think that the form should also be practiced without tension on occasion-_but thats just me, and *what do I know?*_


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## clfsean

Doomx2001 said:


> But here is the gray area, there are people in Uechi ryu who say that Kanbun Uechi did not modify what he was taught, he taught his students exactly as he was taught in China. So, Uechi ryu could just be pure southern Chinese kung fu. Besides, when comes to Pangai Noon, you really can't have much of a discussion of it without bringing up Uechi ryu at some point. Also, if you want to examine the origins of Pangai Noon, the Chinese martial arts part of Martial Talk forum would be the best area to do that in as the people here might have more of an idea of Pangai arts there could be in China.
> 
> Also, thank you for all your input, it really adds the discussion.



I look at Uechi ryu as good, solid Southern TCMA moved to an island is all...


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## Seizan

Hello all,

Sorry for the delay.  Power went off a bit more than 48 hours ago and is still off in my section of Yomitan.  I am typing this between classes at school (I teach English at a local Japanese middle school).

The 1977 Kyohon available on Kindle is most likely the David Smith translation, not the original or anything like it.

There seem to be several Sanchins performed with similarities but none identical to that which is used by UechiRyu.  I still believe it exists somewhere, just not on YT.

Uechi Kanei Sensei stated in the 1977 Kyohon that his father Kanbun Sensei absolutely did not  could not  change the style he learned from Shuu Shiwa, and taught it exactly as possible.  This near-extreme dedication to the teaching of ones Sensei was not uncommon in that age (not really so long ago).  When I locate the translation of that passage, Ill post it.

The following refers to ZKK training only, and may not necessarily apply to any other practitioners of UechiRyu or system using Sanchin.  As taught to Toyama Sensei by Kanbun Sensei, Sanchin did not mean three battles, conflicts, internal organs, ki points, etc. (I am told that Kanbun Sensei never spoke of ki or chi in his philosophy, nor did he refer to it in any training).  Kanbun Sensei did however often refer to the Three Challenges of Sanchin (san = three, chin  = challenge) as being softness, timing, and power on impact (yawarakasa, binkansa, chikarazuyosa).  The meanings of these are taught in dojo and are much more than just the one or two words of definition typed here.  But these are considered (for us, anyway) the three biggest personal challenges of our training  to develop these concepts and apply them to each technique in dojo, and in every aspect of our lives outside of dojo.


----------



## Seizan

I was asked regarding whether Kanbun Sensei changed or modified anything he learned from Shuu Shiwa.  This extract from the 1977 UechiRyu Kyohon are Kanei Senseis words on the matter, and match what I was told by Toyama Sensei.

*****
From: G. Seizan Breyette
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 1:19 PM
Subject: Extract from UechiRyu Kyohon, with translation

About the translators:  Sumako Matsuda is a Level 4 translator for the GoJ and the US Government here on Okinawa.  The test for all government-position translation levels is administered through official DOD agencies in Washington DC and coordinated with the GoJ.  Level 4 is the highest rating possible and is the required level for United Nations translators.

Higashimori Kei was the Dean of Teachers for the prestigious Naha International High School, Naha Okinawa.  He is now Japanese Language Chief Instructor for Yomitan High School, Okinawa.

Kinjo Toya majors in English at Meio University in Nago.

I revised and edited for grammar and spelling, and to include alternate word or phrase translations.

Excerpt from page 410 in the 2nd half of the UechiRyu Kyohon --  The beginning of the paragraph is about Kanbun Sensei being granted the Menkyo Kaiden from Shuu Sensei.  The translation here begins on the very end of line 4 (in the excerpt, it is the far right, last kanji on line 4, the kanji "Ue" for Uechi Kanbun").  Words or phrases in [brackets] represent alternate or clarifying remarks, since even single kanji may translate into a phrase rather than into single English words.  Alternate translators will chose somewhat different phrases or diction but the meaning will be the same.

*****
Matsuda-Breyette-Higashimori-Kinjo Translation:

Uechi Kanbun deeply remembered the appreciation that Shuu Shiwa gave him.  He believed that strictly passing [the training that Shuu Sensei gave him] on to the next generation was the highest [honor] he could show.  So he never created kata, he didn't change or add; he preserved and cherished Shuu Shiwa's direct technique.  This was the only Way (Do) that he believed in -- to preserve exactly the direct training [technique].  [He did not copy or modify, he did not imitate -- he lived the Do of Shuu Shiwa.] 
We the modern generation shouldn't question [judge] the philosophy of the past Bujin [Master] by using our [ours, the modern generation's] understanding [philosophy].  [It is nearly impossible to understand the minds and attitudes of the past Bujin, so one cannot judge by modern standards which have never seen those old times.]  

The way this person [Kanbun Sensei] lived to perfectly apply [his teacher's training] into his life as a matter of loyalty may be interpreted as no personal individuality [a loss of individuality] but it should be highly recognized [respected and honored as a huge personal sacrifice] because the very way he lived was his personally-chosen Do.

[Expl:  Shutaisei kantetsu  a very difficult term to translate, as there is no direct translation of this concept.  Kanbun Sensei was entrusted with a certain Way to live by Shuu Sensei, so by his personally-accepted obligation he could absolutely not change that Way.  The minds of others did not matter to him or interest him.  He had his own goals to achieve.  His training from his Sensei was his total focus.  Others could be more easily influenced to change or to make it a different way, but he wasn't so influenced.  He had only one Way on which he focused].

So only the people who can evaluate [the life or mind of the Bujin] are the persons who lived with and had experience with him, otherwise we shouldn't try to apply modern understanding [it is mostly outside the realm of modern thought patterns and understanding].

(The above is repeated several times in slightly differing words throughout this section of the text.)

The way things are today are based on the past, and on the beginning created by people in the old times [Kanbun Sensei].  [The modern way is good because it deals with an understanding of modern times.]  But one can't ignore [denigrate, deny, spurn, discard, scoff at, cast aside] persons [or ways, mannerisms, methods] of the past by [in favor of] modern standards [mind].  Uechi Kanbun is considered today to have had no individuality but actually he cherished Shuu Shiwa's teaching for the rest of his life.  He made no changes [to what he was taught].  That was how the old-time Bujin was supposed to be -- loyal to his Sensei [refusing to be influenced by any other way or teaching, to maintain the teaching he got from his Sensei].

That was "common sense" in old times.  But now it's very difficult to maintain that sort of life style [philosophy, way of living] except for one who is very humble and lives in a very simple and direct manner [free of desires for riches, fame, greatness, etc.].


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## Seizan

Now on to the second generation of UechiRyu...  Bold type emphasis is my own, pertinent to the discussion.

*****
Extract from the recently-published book Okinawa Karate  The Real Truth Pages 21 and 22, interview with Takamiyagi Shigeru Sensei, Okikukai ShoheiRyu.  Bracketed phrases are my explanations or further details.


Originally, UechiRyu Sanchin and GojuRyu Sanchin were the same.  However, 2nd generation Uechi Kanei Sensei modified the techniques [of his fathers system] to be suitable [goriteki  logical, rational, appropriate] for Japanese people in a practical manner.  Among the kenpo techniques from China there were many things that practically speaking could not be used for Japanese people so Kanei Sensei deleted all of those [Kanei Sensei deleted all those techniques from the system].  Only keri remains from Chuugoku kenpo, but sokutei was not used.  *So the useful things [techniques that could be used by Japanese people] remained but the non-useful things [Chinese-style techniques not easily learned or used] were deleted.*


----------



## Seizan

Several years ago I participated in a UechiRyu forums discussion about Kanbun Sensei's studies in China, and what he passed on to us through Toyama Sensei.  Is it permitted to post the link to that discussion from another forums?  It ended up being 9 pages long, and I'd hate to have to repeat all that info and the great comments...


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## arnisador

I'm enjoying the info. even though I no longer practice the system.


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## Doomx2001

Seizan said:


> &#8220;Originally, UechiRyu Sanchin and GojuRyu Sanchin were the same.  However, 2nd generation Uechi Kanei Sensei modified the techniques [of his father&#8217;s system] to be suitable [&#8220;goriteki&#8221; &#8211; logical, rational, appropriate] for Japanese people in a practical manner.  Among the kenpo techniques from China there were many things that practically speaking could not be used for Japanese people so Kanei Sensei deleted all of those [Kanei Sensei deleted all those techniques from the system].  Only keri remains from Chuugoku kenpo, but sokutei was not used.  *So the useful things [techniques that could be used by Japanese people] remained but the non-useful things [Chinese-style techniques not easily learned or used] were deleted.&#8221;*



This is a stupid question, but what is 'sokutei' and are there any online video references to it? What techniques were modified? Thanks again Seizan for all your input.


----------



## Seizan

Sokutei is a kick with the bottom of the foot, corresponding with the palm of the hand.  Google "sokutei" and hit "Images", and you'll come up with a few photos and examples.

Regarding which techniques were changed, that would take a lesson in the dojo...  Much philosophy was omitted and several techniques were changed due to reasons I really can't go into here.


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## Seizan

Actually, sokutei is the bottom part of the foot.  Sokutei geri is the kick.  My bad.


----------



## punisher73

Seizan said:


> Actually, sokutei is the bottom part of the foot.  Sokutei geri is the kick.  My bad.



Dumb question, how does "sokutei" differ from "kakato"?  "Kakato means "heel" I know, is "sokutei" the whole bottom of the foot or the arch part?  I know it was mentioned like the palm, going with that analogy is it the center of the palm vs. the bottom of the palm referred to as a "heel palm"?

Also, I don't believe there are any rules against linking to a different discussion.  I would love to read it.


----------



## clfsean

There are some rules about cross linking to other forums, but I think this would be ok given context & content. 

Link away!!


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## Xue Sheng

clfsean said:


> I look at Uechi ryu as good, solid Southern TCMA moved to an island is all...



And the move made it even better...because they at least do not speak that Cantonese Devil talk


----------



## TimoS

punisher73 said:


> Dumb question, how does "sokutei" differ from "kakato"?



Isn't kakatogeri more like an axe-kick? As I understood it, sokuteigeri would look more like a maegeri. I don't practice either kick, so I'm just guessing


----------



## clfsean

Xue Sheng said:


> And the move made it even better...because they at least do not speak that Cantonese Devil talk



Don't hate... besides in Fujian they have their own dialects & language. He wouldn't have been around the language of the blessed patriots. :salute:


----------



## Xue Sheng

clfsean said:


> Don't hate... besides in Fujian they have their own dialects & language. He wouldn't have been around the language of the blessed patriots. :salute:




I know Fujian has its own rather hard to understand dialect, even for those that speak "true" Chinese, the language of the chosen (Mandarin), I was just happy it got out of Fujian to Japan before the Devil talkers got a hold of it


----------



## punisher73

TimoS said:


> Isn't kakatogeri more like an axe-kick? As I understood it, sokuteigeri would look more like a maegeri. I don't practice either kick, so I'm just guessing



Our kicks are just named in english with a descriptor/body part (ball kick, heel thrust, etc.) so I didn't know the body part name and how it was named in japanese.  I looked it up and the kakato geri is like an axe kick and a heel thrust (in japanese) is named for the direction and then "kekomi" for "thrust".  So a mae kekomi is a front thrust, a ushiro kekomi is a rear thrust.


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## Seizan

Punisher73,

PM for you...

Everyone else,

I can send you the link to the other Uechi forums if you write me privately; I don't want to risk breaking a rule regarding posting links to other forums.  That thread hasn't been active since 2006 but it's archived and still available.  Anyway, I can be found at my regular e-mail address, which can be found on my website, which can be found in my MartialTalk profile, which can be found...  

Seizan


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## Seizan

Hello All,

My student in Scotland posted the kanji, dictionary extracts, my explanation, et al on his site.  For those of you still following the thread, here's the link:

http://www.oldstyleuechiryu.com/article_pangainun.html

Pretty much the same text I presented earlier, but at least now you have the kanji etc.


----------



## punisher73

Seizan said:


> Hello All,
> 
> My student in Scotland posted the kanji, dictionary extracts, my explanation, et al on his site.  For those of you still following the thread, here's the link:
> 
> http://www.oldstyleuechiryu.com/article_pangainun.html
> 
> Pretty much the same text I presented earlier, but at least now you have the kanji etc.



I have come across that website before, off topic a little bit.  There is an article on there about Suparenpei, have you seen the version they talked about and if so do you think that it might be similiar to what Uechi would have learned if he had stayed longer?


----------



## Seizan

I have seen it several times but there is no way to know for sure that it is the same, or has changed over the course of more than 100 years, or even if it is/was the only Suparinpe form being taught at the time.

The system taught to Kanbun Sensei consisted of three forms  specifically Sanchin, Seisan, and Sandairyu.  The Suparinpe may not have been of the same system.  Perhaps several 108 forms exist today because the systems to which they belonged are preserved (in whole or part).  However so far there are no corresponding forms that strongly resemble UechiRyus Sanchin, Seisan, or Sandairyu, though in August 2005, a visiting Chinese stylist demonstrated for me a Dog Style form that resembles Sanchin.  The system taught to Kanbun Sensei was apparently preserved only through Kanbun Sensei and his descendent students.

One original Suparinpe taught by Shuu Sensei was shown to Toyama Sensei in the 1970s by two elderly Chinese gentlemen who studied in Kanbun Senseis original dojo in China.  The visit by these Chinese gentlemen is known to many who trained in the Futenma Dojo in the early or mid 70's.  The dojo in China remained open after Kanbun Sensei left.  Shuu Sensei assigned another of his top students to teach there in Kanbun Senseis stead, otherwise Toyama Senseis two elderly visitors would not have been able to perform Suparinpe.  They performed in exactly the same manner that Toyama Sensei performs (posture, timing, extensive use of a UechiRyu-like Sanchin stance, large circular blocking movements, etc.).  Performed in that manner, many techniques and positions nearly identical to UechiRyu could be seen.  But there is still no way to know for sure whether that was the same Suparinpe that Kanbun Sensei would have learned, considering that we find little today that more than slightly resembles UechiRyu.


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## Doomx2001

Seizan said:


> though in August 2005, a visiting Chinese stylist demonstrated for me a Dog Style form that resembles Sanchin.



What was the name of the dog style?
And do you know the names of the two Chinese masters that visited the Uechi ryu dojo?


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## Xue Sheng

Doomx2001 said:


> What was the name of the dog style?



Góuquán


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## Seizan

Hi Folks,

Though we had a typhoon more than a week ago, repair crews are still fixing power lines and cables, etc.  Consequently, our lines in Nagahama are down since Saturday and may take another day  or as long as a week to repair.  My response time to the forums and e-mail may be delayed until I have some spare time at school to use the Net to get a message out.  Sorry, and I appreciate your patience

Trying to catch up  Sokutei is the inside bottom of the foot, like the center of the palm.  The heel or butt of the palm would be shotei, corresponding to the kakato or the heel of the foot.

I was not given the name of the dog style from Fuzhou.  If I get in touch with that practitioner again, Ill ask for it.  The strikes were more like shoken rather than open-hand or full fists; they were slow tension strikes, and the wrist movement twisted the fist after delivery before returning to the Sanchin position.  Stance was an hourglass type but wide, and knees were bent giving it a deeper stance than a UechiRyu or GojuRyu.


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## Kong Soo Do

As an add-on to this thread, it is my understanding that Uechi Ryu had a schism in the early 90's?  When Uechi Kammei took over.  From what I've understood, the art of Uechi broke into different factions.  Many of which reverted to some version of the term Pangainoon such as Pangainoon Ryu, Pangainoon Karate, Pangainoon Kempo, Pangainoon Jutsu etc.


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## Seizan

Several schisms have taken place since the 60s, actually.  Some were small single-dojo breaks, others were larger formations of major UechiRyu and related associations.  Fractioning and splits continue to occur today over various issues.

Some associations took the phrase pan gai nun as a name element.  Uechi Kanbun Sensei never used it as a name, but as a description only.  It means (Chinese dictionary definition) half-hard-soft.  Culturally (Fuzhou dialect) it means tough and flexible (something that is half-hard is tough, something that is half-soft is flexible) and describes a method of moving and fighting, not originally a name.

Apparently there were several systems and styles in China around the turn of the 20th century that were described as pan gai nun systems.


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## clfsean

Stylistically... almost anything from Fukien could be that. 

Actually... anything from China could be that.


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## Seizan

Probably so.  I'm not overly familiar with Chinese systems other than this one, but it wouldn't surprise me to find that is so, and many that bear no resemblance to each other at all...


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## Kong Soo Do

This thread has been quite educational and I apprecite those that have offered their input.


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## punisher73

Kong Soo Do said:


> This thread has been quite educational and I apprecite those that have offered their input.



Seizan is VERY informative and gives great information on this topic.


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## Xue Sheng

Seizan said:


> Probably so. I'm not overly familiar with Chinese systems other than this one, but it wouldn't surprise me to find that is so, and many that bear no resemblance to each other at all...



All Chinese systems are made up of a combination of kicking and punching, Qinna and Shuaijiao to varying degrees


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## clfsean

Xue Sheng said:


> All Chinese systems are made up of a combination of kicking and punching, Qinna and Shuaijiao to varying degrees



Yup.... Shuai / Da / Ti / Na


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## Kong Soo Do

punisher73 said:


> Seizan is VERY informative and gives great information on this topic.



Agreed.  Big thumbs up and thank you for the informative posts.


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## TSDTexan

punisher73 said:


> A video of Tohyama Seiko Sensei performing Sanseiryu, enjoy


That was beautiful.  I cried.


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## greytowhite

Style: Feeding Crane Kung Fu


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## hoshin1600

greytowhite said:


> Style: Feeding Crane Kung Fu


Not sure the purpose of your post. Without a comment to accompany the link, but I will say feeding crane is a great system I wish I had time to study. I met Sifu some years ago and he is a very powerful martial artist, but it is not pangainoon.


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## greytowhite

Feeding Crane is thought to be one of the largest influences on Goju ryu and other styles of karate. It is considered an internal/external style or hard/soft and even the names of some of the karate forms (sanchin) harks back to China.


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## Star Dragon

greytowhite said:


> Feeding Crane is thought to be one of the largest influences on Goju ryu and other styles of karate. It is considered an internal/external style or hard/soft and even the names of some of the karate forms (sanchin) harks back to China.



A number of Karate forms are also part of several Kung Fu styles. That includes Sanchin which belongs to White Crane and other Chinese systems, although I am not sure which of the various White Crane substyles practice it, exactly. Maybe somebody else here could tell us, I would appreciate it.


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## clfsean

Sanchin comparative performance ...


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## Bernard C Walters

Well then I have learned the seven kata and only teach sanchin, because that is the only one worth teaching, in my opinion. Why? Kanbun used to say all is within Sanchin, and if you had paid attention while learning it he is correct. The style is not dead because there are a world of practitioners, it is just difficult to locate them because of the popularity of other systems that  over shadow this one style.... I had another instructor, one Frank Gorman, used to say there was nothing that could compete to this style..However, finding a school that teaches it is like looking for a a 4 leaf clover in a wheat field...


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Bernard C Walters said:


> Well then I have learned the seven kata and only teach sanchin, because that is the only one worth teaching, in my opinion. Why? Kanbun used to say all is within Sanchin, and if you had paid attention while learning it he is correct. The style is not dead because there are a world of practitioners, it is just difficult to locate them because of the popularity of other systems that  over shadow this one style.... I had another instructor, one Frank Gorman, used to say there was nothing that could compete to this style..However, finding a school that teaches it is like looking for a a 4 leaf clover in a wheat field...


Thank you for pulling this thread out from the grave. I learned so much that I didn't even know I didn't know.


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## Bernard C Walters

punisher73 said:


> I will have to find it somewhere, but in one of the Uechi-ryu books (either big blue or Mattson's book) there is a picture of the characters that were originally used for pangai noon.


You may find this in Matson's book, as I have a copy #492 of the original 750....


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## JR 137

kempodisciple said:


> Thank you for pulling this thread out from the grave. I learned so much that I didn't even know I didn't know.


Yup. One of the best and most informative threads I’ve read in quite some time.


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