# Cost of a black belt grading



## satans.barber (May 21, 2003)

:soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: 

<ping instructors> how much do you guys charge for a black belt grading?

We were _supposed_ to be grading for black belt in July, but I don't know if it's going ahead now because Mr. Cawood's suddenly *doubled* the price, and half of the people grading (a married couple, comprising two out of four of us total) basically don't think they can raise the money.

It was £50 (~$75) before, and he's put it up to £75 (a 50% increase, thanks Phil, that's well in line with the 2.5% inflation...), but he's also decided that we have to pay for his petrol money to get him up here (he's supposed to run the club, and we haven't seen him in about 15 months, it's not like he spends money getting here every month...) so he's rounded it up to £100 (~$150) each.

I don't really care to be honest, this has been dragging on so long now (it's been posponed about 7 times so far) that it's par for the course.

Ian.


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## KenpoDragon (May 21, 2003)

I don't know if this will help you but mine was $50 for each Brown, and $150 for the Black. It was dispensed through ALL the members of the board. Some of the board members had to take the day off of work, or drive long distances to get to the studio. It was kind of like a thanks for coming by type of thing. I didn't mind because my old instructor never charged for any test up until your Brown Belt test. Hope that helps a little.:asian:


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## Michael Billings (May 21, 2003)

Kenpo has always undercharged ... or more accuratly, been below the going market ... check your local Taekwondo dojang for really interesting rates - they probably won't tell you for fear of running you off.  I have heard, have personal knowledge of other schools charging $40 for the test, $15 for the belt, $10 for the certificate, and $10 for certification with the Association.  This is a whopping $75 for a colored belt below brown.  Sure it was a TakeOne'sDough school, but it still seemed high.  The Black Belt was running about $500.  The mom is in my class and could not get over how cheap tests were.  I hope she thought the knowledge and rank meant more!

I charge $75 for Brown and $150 for Black.  

-Michael


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## Blindside (May 21, 2003)

We don't charge for tests.  Any tests.  

Lamont


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## webpage20022003 (May 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Blindside _
> *We don't charge for tests.  Any tests.
> 
> Lamont *



i'm sure you charge for belt and certificate. I'm sure this charge already covers testing fees ?????? that is why no charge for tests ??????


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## Sigung86 (May 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by webpage20022003 _
> *i'm sure you charge for belt and certificate. I'm sure this charge already covers testing fees ?????? that is why no charge for tests ?????? *



Webbie,

Sometimes you guys crack me up with the assumptions you make.  There are some out there who aren't mercenary enough to charge for testing ...

Lamonts school for one, and me for instance.  My students have to purchase their own belts (not from me), their own uniforms (not from me) and I do not charge for belt tests, ever.  I also provide their certificate, no charge.  Granted it is not the rice paper, hand painted ostentatious variety with wax seals, but one can do a pretty fair job of creating a damnably fine certificate if one has a good pc, a good software package like Photoshop Elements, a good color printer, a little time, an artistic leaning, and a ream of vellum ... Or access to the same.

The tradition of paying for a belt test have never made sense to me.  When you are in college you don't pay extra amounts of money for a test to pass a course for graduation.  That would be ludicrous, as the whole point of taking classes is to be able to pass the tests that are, in fact part of the "right of passage" to receive your diploma from the school.  But ... People and their traditions go on ad nauseum, mindlessly figuring out things they can do without in their lives to featherline the pockets of Black Belts and instructors with extra, easily earned, income Much like the folks in Satans.Barbers post...

A quick aside to Satans.Barber.  Sounds like we have a case of outrageous greed fomenting in the Isles.  I am sorry to hear that you all are getting screwed around with in such a blatantly extortionate fashion.  unfortunately, thems that got the gold makes the rules.  

You pay anywhere from reasonable to exhorbitant amounts of money to learn from your instructor over a number of years to become proficient in your desired field (Kenpo in this instance).  You have innumerable classes with the instructor(s).  Then every so often, you pay an increasingly large amount of money to stand in front of the instructor and his partners and/or association heads to regurgitate what he has shown you, and knows that you either know or do not know.

Bull Twaddle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your giving away hard earned money to folks who want easy money.

And just because the Koreans do it doesn't make it right.
:rofl:   But that is another whole area of graft, corruption, and financial lunacy, reserved for another time.


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## tarabos (May 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *We were supposed to be grading for black belt in July, but I don't know if it's going ahead now because Mr. Cawood's suddenly doubled the price, and half of the people grading (a married couple, comprising two out of four of us total) basically don't think they can raise the money. *



something's just not right when the "fee" to test for a belt is so high that a student has trouble affording, let alone justifying it.

it's like the others said...easy money for the instructor.


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## RCastillo (May 22, 2003)

Charge 5 dollars for the certificate, since it comes from Master Al, the belt is given.:asian:


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## Kirk (May 22, 2003)

My instructor blows his entire day when we test.  He charges $20 
dollars, regardless of what rank you're testing for .. you get a 
NICE certificate, a belt, and a printed curriculum of all you need to 
know for the next belt.

If there's anything left over after all that .. I don't begrudge him
one dime ... his whole day is gone, and he makes his living from
teaching.


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## Michael Billings (May 22, 2003)

I know what my Association charged for Brown and Black, I assure you I made no money ... at all!!!  It went to the Board, for travel, expenses, time, etc.  And it certainly did not cover their expenses. 

On another note: I do not charge for kid's stripes, they come and go so quickly.  But when I spend 2-3 hours testing one of my students I charge de minimus for my time.  That block of time could be given to doing privates, school management (books, merchandise, contacting students, etc.)  

You are entering an interesting area here.  Are you a club, are you a huge school, or are your monthly fees such that test fees are included?  Do you pay for it some other way (in contributions of time to the school itself?)  If testing is part of a class, rarely, then there is no charge.  If I test a group there is a different fee structure (less)  

The psychology of fees is important also.  Research shows that you seldom value that which you do not pay for.  A good arguement is made that they have paid over and over and over, like every month.  I have paid for my tests for, hmmmm...  30 something years, in 3 Kenpo Associations, 1 Taekwondo, and in Shotokan.  Those not paying should feel lucky.  This is a tradition in the martial arts, although historically it may not have been money that was paid.  I feel like some compensation for my time is appropriate.  My students value my time more highly than I do.  I am frequently asked why my test fees are so low, given that most tests end up as extremly long private lessons.    

I would never not test someone because they could not pay the fee.  I would manage it somehow so their time was donated to a task needing doing that is not a regular part of the school upkeep.  Interesting how yall think there should be no fees.  I have never experienced that in over 30 years of traing.  A free test occassionally, but not as a policy.  I wonder what the new IKKA will charge.  I know what they used to.

-Michael


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## Blindside (May 22, 2003)

> i'm sure you charge for belt and certificate. I'm sure this charge already covers testing fees ?????? that is why no charge for tests ??????



Well, that would be a poor assumption.  In fact, what you get for that $0.00 charge for your 1st Black test is a genuine rank certificate (oooooh!) signed by all the members of your testing panel, a genuine black belt (oooooh!), and a nifty plaque and katana combo (admittedly the sword is stainless steel, but it will still cut a tomato).  

The goal of our studio(s) is to teach kenpo, not to make money.  We (the instructors) put our time and effort in because we love the art, and I suspect most of us are glad we don't have to try to make a living doing it.  

If you are ever in SW Wyoming, drop in for a visit,

Lamont

PS: In no way am I trying to put down those instructors who do make a living at it, but because we are a non-profit studio we just have different economic requirements.


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## tonbo (May 22, 2003)

At our school, there is no charge for testing, no matter what belt you test for.

We have a monthly, all-inclusive, fee for tuition.  This pays for lessons, your belts, certificates, and testing fees.  All this for prices lower than about 98% of the other schools in the area, who *do* charge for belt tests.

I think that the belief that you don't value what you don't pay for is a plain financial argument.  By the time you reach your next belt, you *have* paid for it:  sweat, frustration, gas money to get you to class, time spent memorizing your techniques, practice time, etc.  The list goes on and on.  Why should you now have to flip out cash or your checkbook, to pay for what you have already earned?

When it comes to testing younger people, I have seen total frustration from kids who have worked hard at earning their belt, getting excited because they are now eligible to test, and then getting totally crushed because their parents refuse to pay the $50 to get them tested for their belt.  

True, instructors should get compensated for what they do.  I fully agree with that.  However, I think that they should find other ways to get that compensation, rather than charging excessively for tests.  

For a number of years, my wife went to a studio where they charged for *everything*.  They had mandatory tests when you got up to the higher ranks, and high belts *had* to test, no matter what, to the tune of $50-$75 per test.  There was no way to tell when the test was coming; it was pretty much at the sifu's whim.  On top of that, Black tests were not held locally--you were generally required to make a trip out of state to test.  This imposed additional fees, on top of the $100 testing fee, including airfare/gas money, hotel/motel rental, and food.  For what?  I'm not entirely sure.  I am pretty confident that the energy in another state is just the same as it is here.  Above and beyond all this mess, students were expected to pass off "animal" tests, each emphasizing different aspects (leopard for speed, tiger for strength, etc.), all of which cost around $75 each.

Needless to say, we got tired of all that mess.  The joke that went around was that you could expect a large test around December, when the sifu would need to buy Christmas presents for his family.  Coincidentally, there often *was* a big, mandatory test around the holiday season.  Go figure.

My point is, students do pay for what they get.  Personally, I think that they (and we) pay a high enough price, and that a matter of payment shouldn't stop someone from receiving the rank that their instructor has essentially told them they have already earned. 

Sorry to ramble, but there ya go......

Peace--


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## roryneil (May 22, 2003)

I've never had to pay for a belt test. I believe it's all rolled into the monthly dues. I can't say for brown or black. I'll let you know in a few years  
  The cost of assembling a Board for testing is moot because all higher level tests are conducted at Spirit Camp and the Seniors are already there. Yea!


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## Disco (May 22, 2003)

If you are fortunate enough to belong to a school/organization that has low fee's, consider yourself lucky. The main problem, as I see it, is that the governing organizations who issue rank certifications have you over a barrel. If you want the all holy, Internationally recognized, accepted by aliens from Tricore III then your going to pay for it. That just seems to be the accepted way of doing business today. I won't even go into the Korean thing......... If you choose not to take out a second morgage just for a piece of paper, you will find yourself, in most cases, behind the eight ball if you should want to try to expand your learning. Can't go to another school because they will probably not accept your certificate. Can't start your own school because you don't have an accepted background. Well you could, but you would most likely get hammered by the organized people around you. So you either pay up front or suffer later on down the road. I know there are exceptions, this seems to be the general norm though. Is there a solution? All depends on the individual. You can't get the holy grail if you don't belong to that organization. You can't belong to that organization unless you study that style in their affiliated schools. You can go to any one of the many independent associations/organizations, but now you bring in the equation of reputability of that particular organization. In many cases, even if that organization passes the reputable test, the people of the holy grail still won't accept it. Hence the catch 22.

Any body have any alternative prospects?


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## Sigung86 (May 22, 2003)

Disco,

Tell the holders of the holy grail to byte the big one!  LOL!

They are not a Tong who own all the martial arts.  There are many independents out there who are reputable, very good, and not inclined to take you money just for the grin of it.

There are many instructors, Kenpo and otherwise, who don't belong to any association and aren't out to take your money, and do manage to make a great living at it.

Membership in an association doesn't guarantee repute or good intention.  It indicates that the person who has the paper paid the money and took a test  (sometimes)....

If you don't really feel like you have to be a member of a group where everyone is patting you on the back, reassuring your man/womanhood, and generally glad handing you... You could quite easily go it without the whole big money thing... And you could make a good living at it.  

Hate to burst your bubble, but outside of Kenpo, and often times, in Kenpo, most people would not know a valid Kenpo organization (Whatever the Hell that is) from a 3 week old donut.  Organizations only supply the credence that you read into it.  It is all paper, razzle, und dazzle, and high-fiving bubbie.

People in organizations will generally leave you alone, unless they really are after your money, and unless you aren't sure of yourself, and need all the applaud, glitter, and absolutely fantastic certificates.... It ain't nothin' but  a thang.  Unfortunately, many, many poor fools and their money have been irrevocably or will soon be parted. :rofl:

To try and put it all in perspective.... Which Kenpo association is the most valid????   


As the Right Reverend BoB might say ...

Gimmeeeeeee Slaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!  :rofl: 

I now suspect that I am due for some flack, so please feel free to shoot! :lol:


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## Disco (May 22, 2003)

No flak, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I've subscribed to the holy grail mentality only to find that those that bless you with a wave of the grail are more corrupt in general than what people think.


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## Doc (May 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Disco,
> 
> Tell the holders of the holy grail to byte the big one!  LOL!
> ...



Dan, I wish you would stop being so reserved and be a little more forthcoming in how you really feel.


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## webpage20022003 (May 22, 2003)

i don't know why it costs more to have a black belt????? anybody knows why??????

you go from white to orange and eventually to black. I think it should cost the same for every belt you test


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## Michael Billings (May 22, 2003)

Like by 3 hours to 2 days, at least my 3rd did.  4th Black took less time, but actually cost a little more due to my changing Associations in 1995.  

It ties up 4 or 5 high ranking black belts to test me.  My fee should helps defray the cost of their travel and expenses ... especially since I do not live in the Kenpo-mecca California.  It is lots cheaper here in Texas at camp, where everyone is there anyway.

-Michael


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## Doc (May 23, 2003)

> especially since I do not live in the Kenpo-mecca California.  It is lots cheaper here in Texas at camp, where everyone is there anyway.
> -Michael [/B]


Kenpo mecca? Where? The grass is always greener ..... From what I hear, Texas is doing just fine.


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## satans.barber (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *
> I would never not test someone because they could not pay the fee.  I would manage it somehow so their time was donated to a task needing doing that is not a regular part of the school upkeep.
> 
> -Michael *



OK, put it this way:

At Christmas, my instructor gave himself a double hernia whilst barrowing some rubble into a skip, pop pop, and was out of the game for 2 months. During that time, I ran the club along with the three other people who are supposed to be grading, and also the one black belt we currently have.

Eventually, in late February, our instructor came back; but only for a few weeks. I kept getting phone calls saying things like "Can you take the class tonight Ian? I'm busy fitting a kitchen." or similar - he's a builder. At the start of March, he waited until everyone had left the training hall and asked if me and Dave (the black belt) stay behind. He confessed that being out of work with his injury had left him in some debt, and that he was trying to set up his own building business so he could make some money to pay it off. But he said there was no way that he could run the Kenpo club and this new business at the same time, until it was set up. He said there was basically three options: firstly, the club could simply close, secondly, the club could continue with us running it, and he'd try to pay us, or thirdly, the club could continue with us running it, and we'd have to do it volountarily.

We chose the third option unanimously, and so at the moment, me and the two other highest belts are running the entire club (teaching, equipment, accounts, transport....everything) free of charge, out of the kindness of our own hearts, which is why I've been doing so much teaching lately. This is goining to continue for (supposedly) 18 months, until our instructor comes back.

Now, if anyone can think of a better alternative way to pay for a black belt grading than with cash than that, I'd love to hear it....

Having said that, I received an e-mail last night suggesting that the club might have to shut down soon anyway, because a lot of people are thinking of leaving (presumably because they're not happy now that the instructor's gone). So I might never get to do my black belt anyway.

Ian.


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## Doc (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *OK, put it this way:
> 
> At Christmas, my instructor gave himself a double hernia whilst barrowing some rubble into a skip, pop pop, and was out of the game for 2 months. During that time, I ran the club along with the three other people who are supposed to be grading, and also the one black belt we currently have.
> ...



For what it's worth, you're already a Black belt in my book.:asian:


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## Sigung86 (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *For what it's worth, you're already a Black belt in my book.:asian: *



I have to second that Ian.

:asian:


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## Kirk (May 23, 2003)

Well ya can't beat that endorsement!!!!

You should contact this guy one last time .. tell him since the club
is closing, that he should mail you and the other 2 your b.b. certs.
Screw the test!


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## satans.barber (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *For what it's worth, you're already a Black belt in my book.:asian: *



That means a lot to me, thankyou (to Mr. Farmer also)!

Ian.


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## tarabos (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *especially since I do not live in the Kenpo-mecca California.  *


* 

count your blessings my friend...you should try living on the east coast.  

you texas folk always seem to have plenty of kenpo activity going on, and quality activity at that.*


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## Kirk (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Kenpo mecca? Where? The grass is always greener ..... From what I hear, Texas is doing just fine. *



No argument there, but if I lived in "So Cal" I could *potentially* in
one day have a private with you, Mr Trejo, Mr Hawkins, 
Mr Tatum, Mr O'Brient, Mr Kongaika, Mr Sepulveda, Mr Leroux,
Mr Sullivan, etc.  Can't do that here!!  Plus there's the historic
Pasadena Studio, "where it all started".

In the east there's Mr Palanzo (sp?), Mr Kelly, Mr Rebello,  Mr 
Hibben, that I can think of off the top of my head.  Plus Mr 
Whitson.

In Texas, I think Mr Duffy actually trained with Mr Parker, but not
as long as the aforementioned ones.  I think the closest to 
Austin would be a nice 15 hour drive to Mr Kelly's school.  Huk
lives in Loiusianna, but he doesn't have a school.  That's all that
I'm aware of!  I know other states have it worse .. but we don't
have it like California!


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## Disco (May 23, 2003)

Gentlemen and Ladies, I have a suggestion. Since this is dealing with Kenpo, can't someone on this board/listing of higher ranking than first Dan afford the promotion to first dan for him? I know that being in another country makes it somewhat of a problem and nobody has actually trained or taught him, but you could set up a plan for a video tape testing. The concenses seems to be that many consider him at Black Belt status allready. Would hate to see a good martial artist and his school fold because of lack of help. Surely somebody or a group of kenpoists from here can find some way to help. Just a thought..........
:asian:


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## pineapple head (May 23, 2003)

It would be cheaper to train with us Ian....


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## Robbo (May 23, 2003)

> You should contact this guy one last time .. tell him since the club is closing, that he should mail you and the other 2 your b.b. certs.



I would look into this, if he trusts you enough to run the club and you are ready to test it would be a formality anyway. It would be shame to come this far and not get the piece of paper. I would think that he would owe you that at least considering the extenuating circumstances and all.

Rob


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## Michael Billings (May 23, 2003)

...that causes enrollment to suffer?  Or is it some other factor such as the economy, expertise with people, comfort in the Art, sales skills, retention principles, etc.?  

Just because someone gets a Black Belt does not mean they can run a school.  No insult intended at all.  But if you try to diagnose a problem and decide the remedy is to promote someone to Black, I have to question the effectiveness of the remedy.  It is a good way for a system to franchise and grow.  Look at the boom in the '60's here in the States, with Mr. Parker following the Alvin Ailey "studio" model, both Tracy and Traco Kenpo franchising out.  Promotions to be used in front of the public, while you work as fast as you can learning the next material you have to teach, as well as how to be a businessman.  Whew!!!  Lots on your plate!  

Ian well may deserve, and should get a Black, but how will that fix the school?  Maybe it is that perceived lack of leadership at the top and it would fix it, but you should be certain of that.  If there is anything I personally can do to help, I would be more than happy to.  Unfortunatley what works in the US may not work in the UK.  There are different norms, expectations, and business practices.

How else can we as a collective group help you out?  It sure seems like you are not lacking in support on this forum.  All of us instructors have been through rough spots, and if we can help, we would be glad to.

Oss,
-Michael


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## Sigung86 (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *...that causes enrollment to suffer?  Or is it some other factor such as the economy, expertise with people, comfort in the Art, sales skills, retention principles, etc.?
> 
> Just because someone gets a Black Belt does not mean they can run a school.  No insult intended at all.  But if you try to diagnose a problem and decide the remedy is to promote someone to Black, I have to question the effectiveness of the remedy.  It is a good way for a system to franchise and grow.  Look at the boom in the '60's here in the States, with Mr. Parker following the Alvin Ailey "studio" model, both Tracy and Traco Kenpo franchising out.  Promotions to be used in front of the public, while you work as fast as you can learning the next material you have to teach, as well as how to be a businessman.  Whew!!!  Lots on your plate!
> ...



Kind of true, but a martial arts school without a Black Belt is much like a gold fish bowl with no gold fish... Or mayhap with no bowl?
The fish, like the school would not stand much of a chance, no matter any other factors.


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## Robbo (May 23, 2003)

Having a BB has a certain amount of mystique to it from the public's point of view (although we know different). If Ian was to continue with the club then I would think a BB would a pre-requisite. It's not like he's a green belt getting promoted up to Black. He's ready to be tested. If his instructor won't promote him or hold a BB test then he loses out on valuble credentials that he needs to run a school.

Rob


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## Michael Billings (May 23, 2003)

Lots of Brown Belts have run schools, I had one personally who ran a successful school in Midland, Texas for years prior to getting his Black.  He was very comfortable with his skills and maturity in the Art.  

A black belt can be a "Sales" point, but it is not sufficient unto itself ... that is a little naive to believe that would "fix" everything.  We have all seen too many schools get shut down over the years.  

I think I was trying to offer more, collectively as a group.  And maybe I mis-spoke in offerring more from the group and should have just spoken for myself.  Therefore, Ian, If I personally can help in any way, business-wise, feel free to email or call.  I in no way think of myself as a great businessman, but my school has been up and running for a while, and it started as a club in a garage, then a gym, now a small business.

 Maybe someone out there wants to promote him, I have no problem with that, but I also would like to give him the tools he needs to run a successful school/club also.  I also don't want to take anything away from his instructor, who could promote him post facto if he so desired.  Did Ian ask someone to promote him?  This seems a bit presumptuous on our part to assume he would accept it from someone who does not even know him.  Geez guys, lighten up, what is most important here?  What he wants and states he needs, or what we think he needs.  

You have a right to your perceptions and opinions, and I reserve the right to have mine.  Neither one is neccessarily right or wrong in every case, and there is a lot of ground left in between.

-Michael


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## satans.barber (May 23, 2003)

Hehe, unfortunately, I'm not deserving of an honourary black belt from any of you guys, since I don't know all of your curriculum. The Kempo Ryu curriculum is quite a bit shorter than an EPAK curriculum, so I'm sure that I'm not at an equivalent standard to an EPAK black belt (well, perhaps _standard_ isn't the right word, but I certainly don't know as many techniques etc.). You can see our currciulum on the new, half finished website if anyone's interested: www.kemporyu.co.uk/dev/syllabus.htm .

It is a lovely thought even to be suggested though, and I do thank you!

The running of the school and the black belt grading are not inter-linked, they just happened to have arrived at the same time. However, one is affecting the other, since while ever I'm teaching I'm not getting a whole lot of practice in myself, from a physical point of view, although I am doing a lor of explaining which is helping to cement the principles in my own mind.

We do have one black belt at the school, so I don't think it's a lack of such that's causing problems, just a sudden change I think. Next week I'm going to ask everyone to just tell me what's wrong, I've decided that the simplest and most honest approach. If it's the fact that the instructor's left, there's nothing I can do about it, but anything else I'm sure I can fix - we shall see.

It could just be that a lack of organisation is annoying people, but taking on all the paperwork has been a bigger job that we thought. We are getting on top of it now though, so that might help. Gradings have also become irregular; we used to have them regularly every three months, but we've got one with Wednesday and it's the first once since last September! We've only got 4 juniors and 6 seniors grading though, nobody else seems bothered, so I need to try and work out why.

Anyways, I'll keep you guys posted if you're interested.

Ian.


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## ProfessorKenpo (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *
> 
> Hehe, unfortunately, I'm not deserving of an honourary black belt from any of you guys, since I don't know all of your curriculum. The Kempo Ryu curriculum is quite a bit shorter than an EPAK curriculum, so I'm sure that I'm not at an equivalent standard to an EPAK black belt (well, perhaps standard isn't the right word, but I certainly don't know as many techniques etc.). You can see our currciulum on the new, half finished website if anyone's interested: www.kemporyu.co.uk/dev/syllabus.htm .
> ...




Yea, the amount of techniques puts you somewhere in our Blue Belt range for your Black.     


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## satans.barber (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *Yea, the amount of techniques puts you somewhere in our Blue Belt range for your Black.
> 
> 
> ...



In terms of volume, yes, but I think a black belt should be judged on more than just volume of techniques; understanding, commitment, skill etc. are all important as well 

Ian.


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## Sigung86 (May 23, 2003)

I will not even begin to speak for Doc, but only myself.

It is interesting that Doc made, what appeared to be a written compliment to Sat's spirit.  At least that is the way I took it.  My comment was made in that spirit.  I would not venture to put  a Black Belt on someone I did not know.  Having been in and at the arts since 1963, I believe I have a better grip on it than that.

Mr. Billings.  I don't think that I indicated that a Black Belt would fix the problem.  All I indicated, in other words, is that if you open a school of ballet, you had better have some ballet slippers.  

There are exceptions to every rule.  Even I know that.  I do not run a commercial school anymore.  I wasn't very good as a business man before, as I tended to let the love of teaching the art over rule my business acumen.  But given the location and proximity to other martial arts schools in my area, had I opened with less than the rank I have, I would not have lasted nearly as long as I did.  For the "most part" a karate school is expected to be run by a Black Belt.  That's just sort of the way things go.  But, as I said, there are exceptions to every rule.  So ...

:asian:


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## webpage20022003 (May 23, 2003)

the meaning of having a black belt NOWSDAY doesn't mean MUCH


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## Sigung86 (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by webpage20022003 _
> *the meaning of having a black belt NOWSDAY doesn't mean MUCH *



Brutha!  The meaning of the Black Belt is in you, and no one else.  If it means that little then you need to not take it.  It will never hold any value to you.  And will probably prove to be a large disappointment.


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## redfang (May 24, 2003)

Many of the kenpo schools near me have no testing fees.  Many require that you buy your belt tho after advancing.


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## Kenpomachine (May 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *Having said that, I received an e-mail last night suggesting that the club might have to shut down soon anyway, because a lot of people are thinking of leaving (presumably because they're not happy now that the instructor's gone). So I might never get to do my black belt anyway.*



Ian, those people have had five months to leave already and haven't done it. That should say you something... Don't believe everything you read! 

Keep up working, even if you three have to star another kenpo club anew.

Lucía


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## Michael Billings (May 25, 2003)

Dan, I know you didn't say it would "fix" stuff, no problem brudda.  I did not mean to challenge, but more to offer more concrete help if possible, or if not, at least some support in that he does not have to be a Black Belt to make it work.

I do agree that students expect a black belt in front of the class, and the public, in general, cannot distinguish degrees of black, much less who is actually good or poor.  And even worse, how do they compare across systems.  You are right in that the work has gone into it, and I know you were just being supportive and encouraging.  Same for me, but wanted to look at more of the problem.

Sorry for taking this off track so far.  Maybe a new thread to help support him in this situation, with questions and answers or suggestions would be helpful.  If not, that is ok too.

Have a good Memorial Day yall.  No Work!!!!!  

Oss!


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