# The Truth on Taiji Quan



## CrushingFist (Mar 27, 2009)

All this information from this site :http://www.sathon.net/dragongate.html
and www.dantao.com being the principal!

[SIZE=+1]What is the relationship between Dragon Gatea Taoist sect and Taiji Quan?[/SIZE] 
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[SIZE=+1]Imagine Taiji Quan a fruit in a pear tree.The branch that holds the fruit of Taiji is the Dragon Gate Taoist Sect.[/SIZE] 
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[SIZE=+1]Why and what use does the knowledge of the Dragon Gate Taoist sect help me in my Taiji practice?[/SIZE] 
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[SIZE=+1]Many Taiji practitioners only have a vague idea that Taiji is somehow related to Taoism. But most Taiji students and even some     teachers  are not clear in what  context does Taiji exist in this milieu.  Rather, after an initial search of most books written on the origin of Taiji Quan, I am sadden to note that most authors    attribute either the founder of Taiji Quan as the Taoist Cheng San Feng (1400 A.D.) or a retired military general Chan of the Chan village (1800).[/SIZE] 
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[SIZE=+1]In the case of Taoist Cheng San Feng, his own teacher is the Dragon Gate master, Fo-Leung, (Fire Dragon).  Clearly, then Taiji in this lineage derives from   the Dragon Gate school.  Whereas, the Chan Village elder developed the Taiji Quan from an old Ming General's military training manual.[/SIZE] 
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[SIZE=+1]Within the Dragon Gate immortal cultivation, Taiji Quan is relegated as the initial foundation building for meditation.  Thus, a Taiji player who wants to master    beyond the Taiji form should also cultivate a meditation practice in order to come to see the fundamental essence.[/SIZE] 
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[SIZE=+1]Personally, having realigned Taiji Quan in the Dragon Gate context helps me to expunge many hidden treasures from the Taiji form.  The most obvious one of    the three chapters in classical Taiji form correlates to the Three Realms: Earth, Humans and Heaven.  Within the Dragon Gate cultivation, one gathers and     circulates three distinct energy of the Three Realm during the Taiji form.  Thus, a master will move very differently in the Earth chapter than the Heaven  chapter.  From the I Ching, Earth energy is square and expansive while the Heaven energy is fluid, circular and never ceasing.[/SIZE] 
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[SIZE=+1]By manifesting the unique signature qualities of the Three Realms, the Taiji master then can advance to a further stage of harmonizing the energy of the Three  Realm.  In the Taiji form, the Jade Maiden Weaving the Shuttle points to this possibility that humans can balance the energy between heaven and earth.  This is  Alchemical Magic.[/SIZE] 
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[SIZE=+1]I urge serious students to study the teaching and history of the Dragon Gate Sect of the Complete Reality Taoist School. The Dragon Gate of  the Complete Reality School focuses on energetic healing and mastery.  I feel a great responsibility and privilege to carry on this lineage and tradition.  Hopefully, such wonderful flame of ancient wisdom will be transmitted through the next generation.  Otherwise, Taiji Quan will fall into the mind numbing trap of either being a Martial Art or fitness program.  To move toward Taoist Alchemy, this is a new sprite in the flowering of Taiji.[/SIZE] 
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[SIZE=+1]It is wonderful that Taiji has penetrated to all level of society and being accepted as readily as Chinese food.  From this vast acceptance, Taiji must invigorate   itself by realigning itself to its true heritage.  Otherwise, it will stagnate and degenerate into numbing commercialism.  Walk across this single log bridge of Taiji,  and you will arrive to the ancient Taoist sanctuary

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> Mythical legend of taiji origin  		  		 		 		[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]*Legend One:*  [/FONT]            The Taoist Cheng San Fung, created Taiji Quan from observing the struggle between a crane and a snake.  He noticed that the soft movement of the snake was very effective in warding off the sharp strike of the crane's beak.  Hence, he realized that Taoist principle of the soft conquering the hard, the yielding and fluid movement of Taiji expresses the grace of this reeling silk motion..
> [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]*Legend Two:*  [/FONT]The Wudang monastery was besieged by bandits, Cheng San Fung, ( Ming dynasty 1600 AD) had an visionary dream in which the immortal warrior taught him the a combative form, Taiji quan.  After one night of such dreaming, he used this Taiji form to defeat the bands of bandits .
> [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]*Legend Three:*  [/FONT]A retired Ming general of the Chan village created the Taiji Quan.based on a late Ming martial manual, The Art of War.  This claim fits very well to the Communist Chinese government's ideology of giving the taiji a proletarian pedigree of being a product of the people and not some decadent feudalistic Taoist alchemy.
> Historical truth...
> The truth of the origin of taiji will never be certain. However, one can deduce from the above legends an overall ontological development of taiji. Most likely, proto-taiji existed as a movement cult of the Neidan, inner alchemy of circulating the qi. Then this is absorbed by later masters--noticeably the Chan villager who had intimate knowledge of the taoist alchemical cultivation. He combined his knowledge of Shaolin hard martial practice with this softer movement of taiji. In the Chan village, the taiji form is simply called the first set. Hence, the first set of movement is gentle in order to warm up the limbs and sinews. The Chan 2nd set, Cannon Fist, is hard and fast with explosive punching and kicking. An outside observer will be hard to distinguish the 2nd set from the more traditional Shaolin fist form.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 27, 2009)

I don't see any writings about any of the Lungmen sects practicing Taiji Quan. The Wudang sect which is a branch of the Lungmen sect supposely invented Taiji by the line of Cheng San Feng but no proof to this claim.
Thomas Clearly wrote about the Dragon gate sect in the book Opening the Dragon gate modern Taoist wizard. There is no mention that I am aware of Taiji Quan. We know that as of now Wudang has Taiji and other arts but I am unsure when it started there and by whom.

I think if we are going to connect Taoist alchemy to Taiji Quan which in my opnion is difficult but I will give it a shot.
I think we have to assume Cheng San Feng invented the 13 postures. We then have to assume he invented it for health. The problem is alot of the Alchemical texts focus more on sutle movements if any and breath control and visualization techniques. Plenty of Qigong does have movements but I think there is a thin line between Qigong and Taoist alchemy.


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## Quotheraving (Mar 27, 2009)

Sounds extremely hokey to me, not aided by the fact that it's in bold font, which is like being shouted at by a preacher.

All told it reads like any number of other absurd claims all of which are invariably designed to lend an undistinguished school the illusion of being the recipients of some kind of hidden knowledge, when it'd be better if they distinguished themselves by actually being good at what they do.


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## blindsage (Mar 27, 2009)

From those websites it sounds like somebody's got serious beef with either the Chen family or with the fact that Taiji is a martial art.  They seem to want it to be pure Qigong and strip away the martial aspects.  Sad.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 27, 2009)

CrushingFist said:


> Personally, having realigned Taiji Quan in the Dragon Gate context helps me to expunge many hidden treasures from the Taiji form[SIZE=+1]. [/SIZE]


 

Why would anyone want to expunge treasures of any kind?

Methinks the author needs to consult Mr. Webster, before using too many five-dollar words...


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 27, 2009)

First it is Chen not Chan those are two entirely different family names in China. And it is in the Chen family history LONG before Communist China. I have heard Mao and Communist China blamed for a lot of things, some true, some false but for this it is just plain silly. And again it is not Chan or Chan village it is Chen and Chen Village or to be more correct Chenjiagou

Next if one is interested in Taoist Alchemy I recommend the Dragon Tiger Classic.

What I always find interesting about these claims is that Chinese historians in China that are studying origins of Taiji can only go back (with any sort of accepted historical accuracy) as far as Chen Wangting (1600-1680) and they are not at all certain of an actual Taoist connection beyond Chen Wangting's study of Yin and Yang Theory and the Tao Te Ching or Te Tao Ching depending on the translation.

Now this bit that you posted



> The Chan 2nd set, Cannon Fist, is hard and fast with explosive punching and kicking. An outside observer will be hard to distinguish the 2nd set from the more traditional Shaolin fist form.


 
Shows a rather limited knowledge of both Chen Taijiquan and Shaolinquan

And this from a couple of old posts of mine in the Tai chi breathing thread about the existance of Zhang Sanfeng (Cheng San Feng)



> You say Zhang Sanfeng designed taiji who if he lived it was likely in either the Yuan Dynasty (1279-1368) or the Sung Dynasty (969-1126) or the Southern Sung Dynasty (1127-1279) and even though someone did make a reference that would put him in the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) for any of the histories to work he can't be from the Ming Dynasty.


 


> You claim Zhang Sanfeng created taijiquan; ok which one?
> 
> Zhang Sanfeng is not mentioned throughout Chinese history until the 1650s in the &#8220;Epitaph of Wang Zhengnan&#8221; written by Huang Zongxi (1610-1695) [note: Chen Wangting 1600-1680] and he is mentioned there Wang Zhengnan is the only living successor to the martial arts lineage of neijia of which Zhang Sanfeng is the founder. He refers to Zhang Sanfeng as a Taoist alchemist and says that Zhang Sanfeng revised Shaolin style to emphasis offense and defense using softness and not relying on hardness. However it is not called taiji it is called Baiji by Wang&#8217;s son and it has little in common with taijiquan with no internal training and it is big on pressure point techniques. But it is a soft style like taiji.
> 
> ...


 
As to Taiji origin and or truth, or at least close to it, I tend to believe &#8220;The Spring and Autumn of Chinese Martial Arts &#8211; 5000 Years- By Kang Gewu&#8221; over anything that mentions the &#8220;Zhang Sanfeng&#8221; and it is basically saying that Chen Wangting took whatever style the Chen family was doing (Chen style quan) and combined it with Yin and Yang Theory, Qi Jiguang&#8217;s Quan Jing San Shi Er Si (32 form boxing) and Huang Ting Jing&#8217;a Dao Yin (guiding method) and then codified Tui shou and two person sticking method and then Chen style Taijiquan was born.

And while we are at it

Major Taoist Sects

And why is the provided link (http://www.sathon.net/dragongate.html) coming up as &#8220;Qigong Healing Fulan Gong&#8221; on the IE7 tab?


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 27, 2009)

First we would have to look at where the Dragon Gate sect comes from.
 Which would be a branch of the Quanzhen school(complete reality school) This was established about the late 1100's. There is no mention this sect practiced any paticular Taiji movement exercise in fact the perfer method of practice was stillness of mind to achieve their Alchemical practice. We then go the the Dragon Gate sect as founded by Wang Chongyang's student Qiu Chuji. Again we do find not find the Taiji movements . Some say San Feng was a member of the Quanzhen sect others say he was a drifting hermit. There were many sects on Wudang mountain I am sure they influenced each other. San Feng is suppose to be the founder of Wudang sect or at least his students were. We also can see within the Wudang sect subcatagories.
http://eng.taoism.org.hk/general-daoism/major-daoist-sects/pg1-3-25.htm 

IMO I do not see the Dragon gate or its root sect Quanzhen having much do to with Taiji Quan. So the claim has to rest on San Feng creation.
 All we are left with are stories and possibly the orginal 13 postures according to tradition. We would have to assume that pieces were added from the orginal form but how much of it is real Taiji has set by the mythical San Feng and the Wudang sect we may never know.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 27, 2009)

There was a theory I read a while back that was talking about the possible origin of Taijiquan and much of the confusion about the origin having to do with Taiji Daoyin (aka Taiji Qigong) which is not Taijiquan.

And that it may have been a combination of Chenquan a few other things (one of those possibly being Shaolin Paoqui) and (Taoist) Taiji daoyin.


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## blindsage (Mar 27, 2009)

How could someone do any form of Taijiquan and ignore the quan part of the name? It's not grand ultimate lighthouse, or wine jug, or spirit walk, it's grand ultimate fist- the clear marking of a chinese fighting style. If it's a 'proto Taiji' as it claims on the website it means two things 1) it's not Taiji by their own claim, and 2) it could very well be (just saying in theory) a Qigong method that was combined with other methods to create Taijiquan, but then its still wouldn't be Taijiquan. Taijiquan is what it is, if you are doing something that is a pre-cursor to it, then do that and be happy, but stop complaining about an irrelevent argument that has nothing to do with what Taijiquan actually is.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 27, 2009)

> There was a theory I read a while back that was talking about the possible origin of Taijiquan and much of the confusion about the origin having to do with Taiji Daoyin (aka Taiji Qigong) which is not Taijiquan.


 According to the site:


> a Taoist, Cheng San Feng combined the Shamanistic movements of Qigong into the 13 Postures movement form of Taiji Quan. At the time, the 13 Postures were practiced individually similar to the repetitive Qigong exercises.


 By the time San Feng was in existance say around 1100-1300 The Alchemy schools already shifted towards Inner Alchemy and theories and sects were already established. The only thing that comes to mind and the site states it is Star stepping most important would most likely be the Steps of Yu. I don't know how much of Star stepping is done in the Alchemy schools since the practice is a religious type of move. The practice is done in Japan as a Earth purifying gesture and in some cases the feet make a Pentagram like dance gesture as protection or purity.
How much of Taiji comes from the Star stepping ritual I have no idea if any but it is an interesting theory to say the least.
Also Xue I do not know how much of Taiji Quan comes from the Dao yin practices such as the ones found at Mawangdui. IMO the Dao yin exercise were not as structured as Taiji form and IMO the Taiji Quan concept seems to be more with an advance concept(this may not be the right wording) Here is something cool your wife might think so to if she does not know about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangdi_Sijing

IMO I think I would have to agree about Chenquan family art having changed thru trial and error or by the addition of some sort of Qigong/Alchemy/or some sort of Taoist like training but how much and whom and what we may never know.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 29, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> According to the site:
> By the time San Feng was in existance say around 1100-1300 The Alchemy schools already shifted towards Inner Alchemy and theories and sects were already established. The only thing that comes to mind and the site states it is Star stepping most important would most likely be the Steps of Yu. I don't know how much of Star stepping is done in the Alchemy schools since the practice is a religious type of move. The practice is done in Japan as a Earth purifying gesture and in some cases the feet make a Pentagram like dance gesture as protection or purity.
> How much of Taiji comes from the Star stepping ritual I have no idea if any but it is an interesting theory to say the least.
> Also Xue I do not know how much of Taiji Quan comes from the Dao yin practices such as the ones found at Mawangdui. IMO the Dao yin exercise were not as structured as Taiji form and IMO the Taiji Quan concept seems to be more with an advance concept(this may not be the right wording) Here is something cool your wife might think so to if she does not know about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangdi_Sijing
> ...


 
Like I said it was a theory, also like I said, I tend to go more with the whole Chen Wangting took whatever style the Chen family was doing (Chen style quan) and combined it with Yin and Yang Theory, Qi Jiguangs Quan Jing San Shi Er Si (32 form boxing) and Huang Ting Jinga Dao Yin (guiding method) and then codified Tui shou and two person sticking method and then Chen style Taijiquan was born.

As for Zhang Sanfeng... since most that write about or study or attempt to study Zhang Sanfeng can't agree on when he lived or even if he lived I tend not to take many claims about Zhang Sanfeng (who was also said to be immortal by more than one writer) to seriously


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## Tez3 (Mar 29, 2009)

I like the font in the OP, what is it? 
What the rest of meant I have no idea of course but I reckon you're used to me by now roflmao!


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## grydth (Mar 29, 2009)

I doubt there is a singular "truth" in Tai Chi..... 

There are likely many, though obscured and colored by ages of myth and fiction... who knows how many truths we will ever know from before the modern era?


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## ggg214 (Mar 29, 2009)

there are so many people who prefer the opinion of relationship between taiji and Taoism. they want to gain more advantages through taij practitions, such as health, self-defense and "Tao".
what i believe is that taiji is kind of martial art. but because of its relaxation, softness, it's suitable to Tao practioners. after meditation, soft movements can help them recover from long time sitting. then they accept taiji as their part of practitions.
but we should not think through taiji training, one can gain any "Tao"s. they are totally different things.


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## CrushingFist (Mar 30, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> http://eng.taoism.org.hk/general-daoism/major-daoist-sects/default.htm
> 
> And why is the provided link (http://www.sathon.net/dragongate.html) coming up as Qigong Healing Fulan Gong on the IE7 tab?




Same here, which is funny.


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## mograph (Mar 31, 2009)

grydth said:


> I doubt there is a singular "truth" in Tai Chi.....
> 
> There are likely many, though obscured and colored by ages of myth and fiction... who knows how many truths we will ever know from before the modern era?



So true. Myth, fiction, and marketing. 
_"Hey, if that style was invented by an immortal, it must be the best! Where do I sign up?"_


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