# Tough guy sy



## Anuka (Dec 22, 2015)

Most people I know and encounter have this grand sense of confidence about self defense. I know an old man who gets winded getting out of his chair, but  thinks he could win a fight against young, athletic men without being hurt. I've met people who have never been in a physical confrontation, but are sure they could "handle themselves" if the need arises. In fact, that was my attitude when I was younger, especially when I started martial arts. Why do people think this way? I am not well traveled, is this an American thing, or people in general? Can you really know your own capabilities without the occasional brawl?


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## lklawson (Dec 22, 2015)

It's just a "human" thing.  People are generally unwilling to think critically about themselves.  That goes for everything.  They're always a nice, reasonable, logical, intelligent, great looking person;  salt of the earth.  Same thing applies to their fighting ability.  "Of course I can fight!"  

I wouldn't worry about it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tez3 (Dec 22, 2015)

Anuka said:


> Most people I know and encounter have this grand sense of confidence about self defense. I know an old man who gets winded getting out of his chair, but  thinks he could win a fight against young, athletic men without being hurt. I've met people who have never been in a physical confrontation, but are sure they could "handle themselves" if the need arises. In fact, that was my attitude when I was younger, especially when I started martial arts. Why do people think this way? I am not well traveled, is this an American thing, or people in general? Can you really know your own capabilities without the occasional brawl?



The old man knows he'll win the fight because he has a gun in his pocket lol. Old and sneaky beats young and fit. 

It depends who has the attitude, most young men I know have the attitude that they can look after themselves and it's because they can, they've done several tours in Afghan, are tough enough to be able to look after themselves in street altercations and can act in most emergencies. Probably not the average person but that's what we are all like in 'my world'. Martial artists I know, met and/or train with tend to be confident but not cocky particularly. Perhaps Brits though are more reticent though.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 22, 2015)

Report: Average Male 4,000% Less Effective In Fights Than They Imagine


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## drop bear (Dec 22, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Report: Average Male 4,000% Less Effective In Fights Than They Imagine


Thanks. I was trying to find that.


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## Buka (Dec 22, 2015)

Fighter, know thyself.


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## Tez3 (Dec 22, 2015)

Are we talking about martial artists or ordinary people?


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 22, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Are we talking about martial artists or ordinary people?



Yes.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 22, 2015)

Everybody also has that story they tell about that one time. In fact, they are usually about the toughest guy they know.


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## Anuka (Dec 22, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Are we talking about martial artists or ordinary people?



It's probably worse for martial artists, at least for a few years. Before one learns humility it's easy to become overconfident in one's training.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 22, 2015)

Anuka said:


> Most people I know and encounter have this grand sense of confidence about self defense. I know an old man who gets winded getting out of his chair, but  thinks he could win a fight against young, athletic men without being hurt. I've met people who have never been in a physical confrontation, but are sure they could "handle themselves" if the need arises. In fact, that was my attitude when I was younger, especially when I started martial arts. Why do people think this way? I am not well traveled, is this an American thing, or people in general? Can you really know your own capabilities without the occasional brawl?



OK, so to unpack this, it's going to take a little bit of work.   Hang on one...

First, you're making several points and asking several questions here.



> Most people I know and encounter have this grand sense of confidence about self defense.



Maybe they do and maybe they do not.  I have no doubt you've encountered that attitude, but I am not as sure that the people who exude this sense of confidence are really all that convinced of their own abilities.  In general, I have found that most people are a rather huge pile of insecurities about nearly everything.  It's only a few sorts of people who are ACTUALLY as confident as they claim to be, and yes, that type of confidence can be wholly or partially without basis in reality.



> I know an old man who gets winded getting out of his chair, but  thinks he could win a fight against young, athletic men without being hurt.



Again, maybe he thinks that and maybe he just says it.  However, having experienced a bit of being young and a bit of being older, I can say that it seems to me that it's very natural to think of oneself not as the guy one sees in the mirror, but as the guy one sees through the lens of time, which is to say 'back in the day' but also a tad bit buffed up beyond what reality might have actually been.

And why should they not?  Would it be more seemly if they sat in their chairs and thought poorly of themselves?



> I've met people who have never been in a physical confrontation, but are sure they could "handle themselves" if the need arises.



Yes, I believe that's fairly common.  I don't see it as being of any particular consequence, however.  To put it bluntly, so what?

I have been to Las Vegas.  I have gambled in Las Vegas.  I did not leave a winner.  But talk to anyone - they all left _'breaking even'_ at worst.  No one likes to say they lost a bundle there.  Yet, statistically, most have to have lost and lost big.  Does it matter, though?  Really?



> Why do people think this way?



Why do people think of themselves as good drivers, good cooks, good lovers, able to handle huge amounts of booze without effect, and so on and so forth?  I guess because it's part of the human condition.  We see ourselves as capable, caring, intelligent, strong, handsome, etc, against the backdrop of a world that mostly doesn't really care much whether we even exist.  Why would we want to see ourselves as sniveling cowards, useless and selfish mewling little oxygen thieves, even if that's what we really are?  We see movies and read books about heroes who rise to the challenge, handsome men who get the babes (or vice-versa or what-have-you), things which explode and fights where good guys win, and we're sitting in our armchairs and mostly doing nothing and as Pink Floyd put it, _"one day you find, ten years have got behind you, no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun."
_
So maybe we exaggerate a bit here and there.  Maybe in our memories we were a bit faster, stronger, more capable in all ways, and in our mind's eye, we're still that person.  Older, slower, fatter, but still able to put that aside if the moment calls for it...  Truthful?  Probably not, but we make movies about it.






And finally...



> Can you really know your own capabilities without the occasional brawl?



I think the answer to that depends a lot on what you think you need to prove and to whom.  I would guess there are quite a few things I imagine myself capable of doing which I cannot.  But I also know that I've faced the abyss a time or two.  I've come up lacking in some ways, and capable in others.  You never know what's around the next corner.  About all you can do is keep training and keep your head on a swivel.  You will either have a great story, a new set of scars, or it won't matter anymore.  And so it goes.


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## Rmada (Dec 22, 2015)

There are so many quotable lines  in "Fight Club", but the one that comes to mind here is  "how much can you know about yourself if you'very never been in a fight?".

I so love that movie...


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## Flying Crane (Dec 22, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Report: Average Male 4,000% Less Effective In Fights Than They Imagine


Notwithstanding the source, i believe this report is truth.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 22, 2015)

I've actually been able to defuse a number of threatening situations that I've found myself in, with no injury or bloodshed on either part.  Yeah, I guess I can handle myself.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 22, 2015)

Useless and selfish mewling little oxygen thieves.  I like that one.  Thanks Bill!!


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 22, 2015)

Rmada said:


> There are so many quotable lines  in "Fight Club", but the one that comes to mind here is  "how much can you know about yourself if you'very never been in a fight?".
> 
> I so love that movie...



Remembering that it's a movie, one might answer the question, 'what is it I need to know that I do not already know about myself'?

Fighting can definitely be a good way to gain an understanding of oneself in certain ways.  It's not the only way, perhaps not even the best way, but it's a way.

Frankly, I keep learning things about myself, good and bad, on a nearly daily basis these days.  Lots to learn, lots to work on.


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## Anuka (Dec 22, 2015)

Bill Mattocks said:


> OK, so to unpack this, it's going to take a little bit of work.   Hang on one...
> 
> First, you're making several points and asking several questions here.
> 
> ...



I suppose I was vague about the overconfidence. First I hope I didn't come off as condescending against older people, I in no way meant it that way. I figure most people don't think they're not smart enough to fly a plane, but they also don't think they'd do it perfectly in one try. I would consider confidence to be saying "I'm not afraid to defend myself, even  against someone bigger" and overconfidence to be saying "I'll DESTROY anyone who messes with me (which the old man I referenced loves to say). As far as what I said about brawling, that came from a personal experience where I was overconfident against an untrained person because of my martial arts experience.


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## donald1 (Dec 22, 2015)

Cause it feels great, the feeling of overconfidence. On normal days I like to keep my ego above the clouds . IMO it better than lacking confidence


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## Buka (Dec 23, 2015)

As taught to me a long time ago by several women students -

_"All men believe three things about themselves. They are good drivers, good lovers and they have a great sense of humor."
_
I had my doubts when I first heard that. But now, with years of observation and listening, I think that's spot on.


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## Danny T (Dec 23, 2015)

Buka said:


> _"All men believe three things about themselves. They are good drivers, good lovers and they have a great sense of humor."_


Hey I resemble this... A lot! According to my very patient wife.


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## crazydiamond (Dec 23, 2015)

I don't know other MA's or even other Dojo's, but at each stage of training over the last 1.5 years -  I feel I know less and feel less certain of my abilities. Particularly in my sparing classes. I was boxing sparing with my instructor last weekend and I felt like I was standing still with my hands down against him - and did not even see his punches coming . At one point he connected pretty good, but still maybe 30% power and  he was using 16 oz gloves - and I was rattled/wracked, a bit scared, I even questioned WTF I was doing in MA at all.  Yes, I am more worried then ever about ever getting in a real fight.  I also feel more respect for professional fighters or anyone willing to get in to a ring.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 23, 2015)

crazydiamond said:


> I don't know other MA's or even other Dojo's, but at each stage of training over the last 1.5 years -  I feel I know less and feel less certain of my abilities. Particularly in my sparing classes. I was boxing sparing with my instructor last weekend and I felt like I was standing still with my hands down against him - and did not even see his punches coming . At one point he connected pretty good, but still maybe 30% power and  he was using 16 oz gloves - and I was rattled/wracked, a bit scared, I even questioned WTF I was doing in MA at all.  Yes, I am more worried then ever about ever getting in a real fight.  I also feel more respect for professional fighters or anyone willing to get in to a ring.



For me it changes on who I'm practicing with. When my normal opponents are people who have been practicing 20+ years, I really just how much more I have to learn. When my normal opponents are at my level or below, I tend to forget that there are many people much greater than me. Since a lot of beginners don't practice with the people who are far ahead, or those people are giving them 'training sparring sessions', they tend not to realize just how big the gap is.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 24, 2015)

kempodisciple said:


> For me it changes on who I'm practicing with. When my normal opponents are people who have been practicing 20+ years, I really just how much more I have to learn. When my normal opponents are at my level or below, I tend to forget that there are many people much greater than me. Since a lot of beginners don't practice with the people who are far ahead, or those people are giving them 'training sparring sessions', they tend not to realize just how big the gap is.


You really should train with children and newbies; because learning how not to hurt people is a big part of being a teacher.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 24, 2015)

crazydiamond said:


> I don't know other MA's or even other Dojo's, but at each stage of training over the last 1.5 years -  I feel I know less and feel less certain of my abilities. Particularly in my sparing classes. I was boxing sparing with my instructor last weekend and I felt like I was standing still with my hands down against him - and did not even see his punches coming . At one point he connected pretty good, but still maybe 30% power and  he was using 16 oz gloves - and I was rattled/wracked, a bit scared, I even questioned WTF I was doing in MA at all.  Yes, I am more worried then ever about ever getting in a real fight.  I also feel more respect for professional fighters or anyone willing to get in to a ring.



First, you should be glad your instructor is that much better than you. Because you get better by sparring people who are better than you are, and second, because if you can defend against him after only a few years, yikes.

Second, you're probably better than you think. When you spar against someone with less experience than you, you'll see that.

Third, you are a work in progress. Relax. This doesn't come overnight.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 24, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> You really should train with children and newbies; because learning how not to hurt people is a big part of being a teacher.



Oh, I do a lot. Not currently, but for a while I was the children's instructor, and at my main dojo my sensei always asks me to take the newer students aside and train them while he works with the rest of the class. I love it.


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## Skullpunch (Dec 24, 2015)

crazydiamond said:


> I don't know other MA's or even other Dojo's, but at each stage of training over the last 1.5 years -  I feel I know less and feel less certain of my abilities. Particularly in my sparing classes. I was boxing sparing with my instructor last weekend and I felt like I was standing still with my hands down against him - and did not even see his punches coming . At one point he connected pretty good, but still maybe 30% power and  he was using 16 oz gloves - and I was rattled/wracked, a bit scared, I even questioned WTF I was doing in MA at all.  Yes, I am more worried then ever about ever getting in a real fight.  I also feel more respect for professional fighters or anyone willing to get in to a ring.



In jiujitsu we call this phenomenon the "douchebag filter".  The only way to get good is to have done enough randori to where you've been put in a position several hundred (or even thousand) times where the other guy could literally have killed you if he wanted - and being forced into that situation over and over again force feeds you a kind of humility that you really can't get anywhere else.  The guys who come in and want to believe that they're already a badass do not pass this filter, the first time they get tapped by a white belt who's 30 lbs smaller than they are, they leave because their ego can't handle it - that's the very first test you have to pass if you want to have a chance in hell at jiujitsu.


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## yak sao (Dec 24, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Useless and selfish mewling little oxygen thieves.  I like that one.  Thanks Bill!!



It makes me want to go hang myself


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 24, 2015)

I am a big guy and always have been bigger than those my own age group my complete life. Lots of younger guys today have my height and even more. 

When I was younger, I tried to avoid all conflict. People saw this as a weakness and I got into fights. I tried to change it and in the end I ended up just being quiet, and cultivating a resting neutral face. This did not stop people trying to take out the big guy as I was not presenting a level of confidence or attitude as some might say. 

I later added in the belief, that I would survive only it usually would present itself after they had started and could not back down. I would get hurt. They would get hurt worse. 

I started martial arts to bleed off some tension for a court case as a witness for a stabbing and also to learn how not to break people when violence was required. 

I then learned that walking with a certain level of presented confidence stopped many of the challenge attacks and those looking for fun or to test themselves went elsewhere. 
Since the mid 90's the self defense industry tells women to walk with their head up and aware, to be confident and know what is in their surroundings and this makes them less of a target. Guys learn this earlier with normal guy contact sport posturing. 

After some martial arts, I dialed back the responses and also gave them more time and in many ways I hesitated. This is when I spent more time in the hospital for the night or later doctor visits for injuries. So I consciously choose to go back to presenting confidence and reacting first. Of course as a bouncer and security guard type this put me in places the average person may not normally go, so atypical examples for myself. I used these jobs as they paid the best in the late 80's for College as well as Grading and Tutoring and such around the school. 

Later, as my skills improved, I could control them better and react first or soon enough to limit the damage / threat to me. 
I also learned over time better verbal counters to let people know the posturing was not always a posture on my part. Usually admitting that you will be in the hospital and asking if they have as good of insurance as you do, because it was my intent to make sure they were there as well, and hopefully longer. 

I have seen to totally oblivious go out and be stalked by bad types fr robbery or assault, and I have seen those who are aware and confident acknowledge the bad types out there, who usually will move on as they are looking for easy marks. 

Now, when this confidence is not tested, and or limited in testing, and maybe some alcohol or other substances involved (Which I do not approve of) get into the mix, people get louder and more obnoxious. In these cases it is not the casual walking around confidence this is usually bluster and as Bill stated a representation of their own insecurities. 

As with any thing, it depends, and individual experiences will vary, etcetera


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 24, 2015)

Rich Parsons said:


> I am a big guy and always have been bigger than those my own age group my complete life. Lots of younger guys today have my height and even more.
> 
> When I was younger, I tried to avoid all conflict. People saw this as a weakness and I got into fights. I tried to change it and in the end I ended up just being quiet, and cultivating a resting neutral face. This did not stop people trying to take out the big guy as I was not presenting a level of confidence or attitude as some might say.
> 
> ...


I guess I have a similar experience. I am not quite sure what I am doing but people tend not to mess with me, but that isn't totally true, the braver ones will walk up to me an want to play spar. I always win the game, and I think that is usually where I would get beat up, if they weren't losing so much confidence. I don't know.


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## drop bear (Dec 24, 2015)

crazydiamond said:


> I don't know other MA's or even other Dojo's, but at each stage of training over the last 1.5 years -  I feel I know less and feel less certain of my abilities. Particularly in my sparing classes. I was boxing sparing with my instructor last weekend and I felt like I was standing still with my hands down against him - and did not even see his punches coming . At one point he connected pretty good, but still maybe 30% power and  he was using 16 oz gloves - and I was rattled/wracked, a bit scared, I even questioned WTF I was doing in MA at all.  Yes, I am more worried then ever about ever getting in a real fight.  I also feel more respect for professional fighters or anyone willing to get in to a ring.



You are probably getting flinchy. Fight to win. Not to not loose.


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## crazydiamond (Dec 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You are probably getting flinchy. Fight to win. Not to not loose.



Probably true, the owner of the dojo was watching and said I was being too defensive, and to move in more and mix it up as I am a big guy and can use this. My instructor has 20+ years, a number professional and street fights in his past. I am lucky my instructor is a nice guy but he also said I need to get in it a bit more. So ya I am "flinchy" (thats a nice way to describe it) as I have never been hit before in my life, and I am not a young man anymore . I did do "ok" with my fellow students who were also being a bit flinchy. My instructor pushed us all a bit more when he took turns with us.

We have fairly large classes with many students. However less than 20%  (might be 10%) of our class attend the sparing sessions due to issues with dealing with actual contact with an opponent. I really understand their aversion, particularly us older guys. But  its something I needed to overcome - a long time ago, but better late than never.

As to the point of this thread overconfidence  - I think a little humility and ego adjustment about fighting a opponent- should come with any good MA training. Perhaps not - if you never really spar with a senior partner in your MA?  I think it was Mike Tyson who responded to hearing his opponent's plans on how to fight him..."Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 25, 2015)

Sounds to me like you're progressing just fine. Go get hit some more. Throw a few yourself. Everything furthers.


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## drop bear (Dec 25, 2015)

crazydiamond said:


> Probably true, the owner of the dojo was watching and said I was being too defensive, and to move in more and mix it up as I am a big guy and can use this. My instructor has 20+ years, a number professional and street fights in his past. I am lucky my instructor is a nice guy but he also said I need to get in it a bit more. So ya I am "flinchy" (thats a nice way to describe it) as I have never been hit before in my life, and I am not a young man anymore . I did do "ok" with my fellow students who were also being a bit flinchy. My instructor pushed us all a bit more when he took turns with us.
> 
> We have fairly large classes with many students. However less than 20%  (might be 10%) of our class attend the sparing sessions due to issues with dealing with actual contact with an opponent. I really understand their aversion, particularly us older guys. But  its something I needed to overcome - a long time ago, but better late than never.
> 
> As to the point of this thread overconfidence  - I think a little humility and ego adjustment about fighting a opponent- should come with any good MA training. Perhaps not - if you never really spar with a senior partner in your MA?  I think it was Mike Tyson who responded to hearing his opponent's plans on how to fight him..."Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".



It is not unusual. I do it myself for the same reasons. But if you loose good structure when you get hit it hurts more. You loose good structure by doing contortions trying to escape strikes.

 And for some reason people often never get told this.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


> It is not unusual. I do it myself for the same reasons. But if you loose good structure when you get hit it hurts more. You loose good structure by doing contortions trying to escape strikes.
> 
> And for some reason people often never get told this.


No, they told us. LOL Covering is very easy, and keeps you neutral to danger for longer periods of time.


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## drop bear (Dec 25, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> No, they told us. LOL Covering is very easy, and keeps you neutral to danger for longer periods of time.



Yeah but you cover forwards not backwards. Even if you are moving backwards.

(There is more to eating punches but this is the simplest idea. So while this is not technically true it is true for a working model)

Your head is pretty much designed to eat shots straight on forehead forwards chin down. The most simple reason for this is because head movement causes concussion.

If you do grappling twisting the chin offline is how you weaken the structure of the neck.

If the structure of the neck is weakened the head will move and punches have more effect. So to knock people out you are trying to make the shot slightly off line. And to defend you are trying to keep the head on line.

This is why covering works. (OK hands up helps)

Now if you are flinching. Your head is generally trying to find a way to escape the punch. The only way to do this is to move off line. Making any punch that connects worse.

So these 30% punches that rock people are generally the fault of being hit while you have poor structure. And the poor structure can be caused psychologically by being overwhelmed by the striking of your oponant.


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## Paul_D (Dec 25, 2015)

Anuka said:


> Most people I know and encounter have this grand sense of confidence about self defense. I know an old man who gets winded getting out of his chair, but  thinks he could win a fight against young, athletic men without being hurt. I've met people who have never been in a physical confrontation, but are sure they could "handle themselves" if the need arises. In fact, that was my attitude when I was younger, especially when I started martial arts. Why do people think this way? I am not well traveled, is this an American thing, or people in general? Can you really know your own capabilities without the occasional brawl?


What does brawling in the street have to do with self defence?  Brawling in the street is illegal, self defence is legal.  The goal of brawling is to "beat" your opponent, the goal of self defence is to create the opportunity to escape.  They are two different things that require different physical skills.  You are confusing the two.  Brawling is not self defence. 

Thinking like a Criminal (podcast) | Iain Abernethy


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 25, 2015)

Anuka said:


> Can you really know your own capabilities without the occasional brawl?


If you spar/wrestle 15 rounds daily, your winning record will give you the confidence.

- If you have taken down your opponent 1,000 times, you will predict that the 1,001 try you will have great chance to take your opponent down too.
- If your opponent has punched on your head 1,000 times and you are still standing, you will predict that the 1,001 punch that will land on your head may still not be able to knock you down.
- If you have spent 3 hours working on your heavy bag daily, you will know that your punch will be more power than the average people.
- ...

In other words, your hard work will give you the confidence.


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