# The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken



## Alan Smithee

Is a myth 99% of the time. The reality is that you can't apply the joint lock whatsoever on a person of similar build and strength if the person resists. You just get stuck. Believe me, I have challenged people on it, including instructors giving out the lecture, and others have too. They can't apply it to me and I can't apply it to them. Simple as that.

So where does this notion stem from that you have to cooperate? It's just not true.

With that in mind, how do you know where your level of Aikido is if it's never tested? What are the criterias? Is it something to do with center of gravity and balance, flow? I have no idea since it's a cooperation between individuals.


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## Martial D

-argues that aikido doesn't work unless you cooperate

- concludes that you don't have to cooperate for aikido to work.


?? lol..?


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## Alan Smithee

Martial D said:


> - concludes that you don't have to cooperate for aikido to work.
> 
> 
> ?? lol..?



What? Where did I do that?


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## Martial D

Alan Smithee said:


> What? Where did I do that?


You might want to read your own post for that answer.


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## Alan Smithee

Martial D said:


> You might want to read your own post for that answer.



I think you should reread your own instead.. It makes very little sense.


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## Alan Smithee

I did not write anywhere that Aikido works without cooperation between individuals of similar strength.

A police officer vs a junkie, it obviously work. Junkies aren't exactly known for their athletic prowess and keeping in shape.

A super heavyweight vs a middleweight, might work on them too. Again, if the discrepancy is large it has a chance of working. But then again, everything does.


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## Alan Smithee

What I mean was: where does this notion stem from that you have to cooperate I*N ORDER TO not get your wrist broken*.

The headliner of the thread in case you missed. I didn't know I had to repeat it.


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## Martial D

Alan Smithee said:


> What I mean was: where does this notion stem from that you have to cooperate I*N ORDER TO not get your wrist broken*.
> 
> The headliner of the thread in case you missed. I didn't know I had to repeat it.



>>_So where does this notion stem from that you have to cooperate? It's just not true.
_
If you meant something other than what you wrote you probably should have wrote what you meant.

As for your premise, I'm not sure anyone is naive enough to believe aikido is more than a cooperative dance anymore, unless they prefer to keep their head in the sand or are making a living from it.


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## Alan Smithee

Martial D said:


> >>_So where does this notion stem from that you have to cooperate? It's just not true.
> _
> If you meant something other than what you wrote you probably should have wrote what you meant.



It is stated in the topic of the thread.



Martial D said:


> As for your premise, I'm not sure anyone is naive enough to believe aikido is more than a cooperative dance anymore.



Presumably a lot of aikidokas still do? And it does work, just not on the people they think.


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## Alan Smithee

From here Opinions on Lenny Sly's Aikido Combative concepts?



punisher73 said:


> As to the "throwing themselves" comment.  That is always the hard part of aikido. * If the person does the technique correctly, you throw yourself to avoid getting hurt*.


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## dvcochran

Alan Smithee said:


> Is a myth 99% of the time. The reality is that you can't apply the joint lock whatsoever on a person of similar build and strength if the person resists. You just get stuck. Believe me, I have challenged people on it, including instructors giving out the lecture, and others have too. They can't apply it to me and I can't apply it to them. Simple as that.
> 
> So where does this notion stem from that you have to cooperate? It's just not true.
> 
> With that in mind, how do you know where your level of Aikido is if it's never tested? What are the criterias? Is it something to do with center of gravity and balance, flow? I have no idea since it's a cooperation between individuals.


I was taught a very comprehensive version of TKD and we worked quite a lot on joint locks. When I was a LEO, another officer and good friend started working out. He was a mountain of a man with huge forearms. There was zero change that ANYONE was going to get wrist lock on him if he was expecting it. As a training tool I would demonstrate this point and then how the elements of surprise and distraction have to be incorporated. 
In reality, I feel there are No techniques that truly work alone. They all incorporate speed, time, distraction, etc...

I am not certain this answers your question since your post mentions breaking the wrist. If you are asking if your wrist breaking motion is strong enough there are stands made to hold resistive objects to test grip/twist strength.


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## Alan Smithee

dvcochran said:


> I was taught a very comprehensive version of TKD and we worked quite a lot on joint locks. When I was a LEO, another officer and good friend started working out. He was a mountain of a man with huge forearms. There was zero change that ANYONE was going to get wrist lock on him if he was expecting it. As a training tool I would demonstrate this point and then how the elements of surprise and distraction have to be incorporated.
> In reality, I feel there are No techniques that truly work alone. They all incorporate speed, time, distraction, etc...
> 
> I am not certain this answers your question since your post mentions breaking the wrist. If you are asking if your wrist breaking motion is strong enough there are stands made to hold resistive objects to test grip/twist strength.



Even trying distracting tactics, it usually doesn't work. My assistant instructor did all kinds of crazy things trying to get the joint lock in.

I'm surprised it ever caught on.. Like you mention, Karate and TKD do have these things as well in smaller portion of the curriculum labelled "Self defence".


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## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> Is a myth 99% of the time. The reality is that you can't apply the joint lock whatsoever on a person of similar build and strength if the person resists. You just get stuck. Believe me, I have challenged people on it, including instructors giving out the lecture, and others have too. They can't apply it to me and I can't apply it to them. Simple as that.
> 
> So where does this notion stem from that you have to cooperate? It's just not true.
> 
> With that in mind, how do you know where your level of Aikido is if it's never tested? What are the criterias? Is it something to do with center of gravity and balance, flow? I have no idea since it's a cooperation between individuals.


theirs a slight difference between what your saying in the title, which is just wrist locks and the body of the text, which is all joint locks,

but yes joint locks are hard to do against a strong opponent that is expecting a joint lock to be attempted, some what easier if they lunge at you and you catch them by surprise.

by the point you reach the stage of lock as shown in aikido demonstrations then you probably do have to give up ( the hard part is getting to that stage}, im not sure about the wrist being broken, but your in a very disadvantaged position, if you have a good strength advantage you may be able to untangle yourself.

arm bars are a different kettle of fish, you could easily end up with damage to the elbow


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## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> by the point you reach the stage of lock as shown in aikido demonstrations then you probably do have to give up, im not sure about the wrist being broken, but your in a very disadvantaged position, if you have a good strength advantage you may be able to untangle yourself.



You mean that if you are half way to completing the technique? I don't know about that but it really isn't relevant since there is no evidence to suggest you will get half way.


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## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> You mean that if you are half way to completing the technique? I don't know about that but it really isn't relevant since there is no evidence to suggest you will get half way.


well no thats really what i just said, but its the same for every technique, they all fail if your opponent is a physical match and expecting what ever you are going to do, what your pointing out as a defect of aikido is just a defect in all arts

its very difficult to punch someone who is expecting a punch


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## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> well no thats really what i just said, but its the same for every technique, they all fail if your opponent is a physical match and expecting what ever you are going to do, what your pointing out as a defect of aikido is just a defect in all arts



It is not a defect of all martial arts. A person of the same build in many other martial arts can reasonably apply a successful technique to someone of the same build.


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## punisher73

> As to the "throwing themselves" comment. That is always the hard part of aikido. If the person does the technique correctly, you throw yourself to avoid getting hurt. Also, many times, you "throw yourself" when the technique is applied to learn how to breakfall properly etc. The danger lies in the training when people throw themselves for no reason when the technique is not properly applied.



Please at least quote my full point, which is what you are asking.  

As to your assumption, I don't buy it.  There are somethings that come to mind about joint locks, like a wrist lock, and "real world" application.  First, is when people tell you to apply something specific and you know what they are going to do and then can resist it.  Yep, no problem! You are quite right that if you can't out muscle them it isn't going to work when you know exactly what is coming and you have the chance to resist it.  Second, are those that "chase" after joint locks without a proper setup or opportunity.  This is lock throwing out a block hoping that the other guy might punch at the same time so you can block his punch.  Joint locks are counters to situations that present themselves, if the situation doesn't happen, you shouldn't be putting a square peg in a round hole.  Third, ANY actual street confrontation will be based on the skill of the participants.  You will have your basic "go to" moves that are high percentage moves and you will (or should) have things that will work for you when you are a lot more skilled than your attacker that are options.  

Now, back to the first point that if you are resisting they don't work.  Ueshiba even said that you should be striking (atemi) before applying any joint lock.  How many actually practice this?  I'm sure when you wanted to disprove the wrist locks, your partner didn't punch or kick you to loosen you up and take your mind of the joint lock.  I do agree that many train things with only compliance and don't add resistance to their drilling so they don't raise their skill level up to use things.  I have trained in dojos that it didn't matter how sloppy the technique was, the other person would just comply like it was an effective technique.  I have also trained at places, that even during "cooperative training" if you didn't have everything done correctly, they wouldn't just allow you to apply the technique.  You HAD to have your setup, off balancing, timing etc. all correct before you even got to the joint lock portion of things.

BUT, back to my initial premise.  IF the wrist lock is done correctly and fully applied and carried out, the COUNTER to that is the roll.  Watch BJJ players and you will see them doing rolls on the ground to counter the pressure being applied on certain locks/submissions.  Same concept  The roll is a trained response to counter and put you back into a position that you can defend.  Nowhere do I say you HAVE to roll or your wrist will be broke, but if you don't release the pressure in some manner, you will be injured, which is why people "throw" (roll).


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## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> It is not a defect of all martial arts. A person of the same build in many other martial arts can reasonably apply a successful technique to someone of the same build.



no not if they are a physical match and expecting what ever you are going to do, perhaps you could give a few examples of the techniques you thinking of, that always work ?


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## Xue Sheng

joint locking in Chinese martial arts is called Qinna. I have trained Qinna with a few people. including a little with Yang Jwing Ming, but the absolute best person at Qinna was my Yang Taijiquan Shifu, who is now 80 years old. I can feel when people go for joint locks and I can counter many of them, I could not counter Dr Yang. I felt it coming, but I could not stop him. I cannot feel it when my taiji shifu applies it, never know it is coming, I am just locked. I once asked him how he does this, his response was "You lock yourself". He is never trying to force a lock, he is never trying to trick you into a lock, he is never fighting to get the lock. He is simply waiting for the time when whatever joint he locks, is in the proper position to easily lock. If it is never there, he will not lock it. Of course, he has been training well over 50 years. But his locks, never fail, and are never forced.


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## Alan Smithee

punisher73 said:


> Now, back to the first point that if you are resisting they don't work.  Ueshiba even said that you should be striking (atemi) before applying any joint lock..



Funny since that is not how it's practiced. The defender never punches or kicks in Aikido, only the attacker. They don't even strike theoretically as the defender in Aikido.


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## Xue Sheng

punisher73 said:


> Ueshiba even said that you should be striking (atemi) before applying any joint lock.  How many actually practice this?  I'm sure when you wanted to disprove the wrist locks, your partner didn't punch or kick you to loosen you up and take your mind of the joint lock.  I do agree that many train things with only compliance and don't add resistance to their drilling so they don't raise their skill level up to use things.  I have trained in dojos that it didn't matter how sloppy the technique was, the other person would just comply like it was an effective technique.  I have also trained at places, that even during "cooperative training" if you didn't have everything done correctly, they wouldn't just allow you to apply the technique.  You HAD to have your setup, off balancing, timing etc. all correct before you even got to the joint lock portion of things.



My youngest's Aikido dojo trains the strike before certain techniques and if you do not do the move right, they do not simply fall down, they correct your technique. They are not trying to muscle out o things, they are being a good Uke, but they technique has to be correct.


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## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> no not if they are a physical match and expecting what ever you are going to do, perhaps you could give a few examples of the techniques you thinking of, that always work ?



It does not matter if you grab a hold of my wrist (which is an unlikely scenario in and of itself but leaving that aside) and I don't know which type of joint lock technique coming. It has no bearing on the success rate of it. You cannot move my arm unless you are: a) stronger than me or b) I don't resist.


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## Xue Sheng

Alan Smithee said:


> Funny since that is not how it's practiced. The defender never punches or kicks in Aikido, only the attacker. They don't even strike theoretically as the defender in Aikido.



Not true, the defender does strike in aikido, at least in Aikikai, as it is taught in the dojo my youngest goes to. And the sensei of the school is a Shihan 7th Dan who has been training for many many years


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## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> no not if they are a physical match and expecting what ever you are going to do, perhaps you could give a few examples of the techniques you thinking of, that always work ?



Well I have told a sparring partner that a jab is coming and still tagged him. But it's a mute point since I already addressed that it doesn't matter if I know or not which type of joint lock is coming. 

Your body is going to automatically refrain from someone grabbing the wrist. You do not need to tell it to watch out for a joint lock


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## Alan Smithee

Xue Sheng said:


> Not true, the defender does strike in aikido, at least in Aikikai, as it is taught in the dojo my youngest goes to. And the sensei of the school is a Shihan 7th Dan who has been training for many many years



Oh really, would you name strikes defender applies before joint locks? I see Zero strikes in akikai demos.


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## Xue Sheng

Alan Smithee said:


> It does not matter if you grab a hold of my wrist (which is an unlikely scenario in and of itself but leaving that aside) and I don't know which type of joint lock technique coming. It has no bearing on the success rate of it. You cannot move my arm unless you are: a) stronger than me or b) I don't resist.



If you are responding to me you are missing the point. My shifu is not looking to lock you, he is looking for the opportunity to lock you should it present itself. He is not thinking I have this technique and I'm going to apply it, He is simply observing that he cold apply a lock based on what is presented to hiim


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## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> It does not matter if you grab a hold of my wrist (which is an unlikely scenario in and of itself but leaving that aside) and I don't know which type of joint lock technique coming. It has no bearing on the success rate of it. You cannot move my arm unless you are: a) stronger than me or b) I don't resist.


but you know a joint lock is coming, so can brace against it, just as you know a punch is coming and can block it or a kick and move out of the way.

knowing what your opponent is going to do, is 90% of defeating it, if some random guy grabs my lapel, i can have them in an arm bar before they can tense their muscles to resist, if i tell them in advance i have little chance


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## Xue Sheng

Alan Smithee said:


> Oh really, would you name strikes defender applies before joint locks? I see Zero strikes in akikai demos.



Huh? what are you talking about "name strikes defender applies"? 

I am not an Aikidoka my youngest is and I watch the class, they show a strike before certain techniques, don't know the name of the techniques, don't want to believe me, don't, it makes no difference to me. I know what I see, I know what they train. If you are not happy at the dojo you are at then find another school.


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## Xue Sheng

Alan Smithee said:


> Well I have told a sparring partner that a jab is coming and still tagged him. But it's a mute point since I already addressed that it doesn't matter if I know or not which type of joint lock is coming.
> 
> Your body is going to automatically refrain from someone grabbing the wrist. You do not need to tell it to watch out for a joint lock



Then don't grab the wrist, do something else. There is a lot more to Aikido than joint locks.


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## Martial D

Alan Smithee said:


> It is stated in the topic of the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Presumably a lot of aikidokas still do? And it does work, just not on the people they think.


Sure. Small children and the elderly are people too


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## Alan Smithee

Xue Sheng said:


> Huh? what are you talking about "name strikes defender applies"?
> 
> I am not an Aikidoka my youngest is and I watch the class, they show a strike before certain techniques, don't know the name of the techniques, don't want to believe me, don't, it makes no difference to me. I know what I see, I know what they train. If you are not happy at the dojo you are at then find another school.



The defender, the one who is actually applying a joint lock, does NOT strike in Akikai Aikido.


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## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> but you know a joint lock is coming, so can brace against it, just as you know a punch is coming and can block it or a kick and move out of the way.



It's not the same thing as anticipating a joint lock. You can't compare the two scenarios.


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## Xue Sheng

Alan Smithee said:


> The defender, the one who is actually applying a joint lock, does NOT strike in Akikai Aikido.



Yes, yes they do, sorry, but I have seen it for years in Aikikai Aikido. Like I said, don't believe if that works for you, I am not out to prove anything to you, just stating the facts, that is all.


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## Alan Smithee

Xue Sheng said:


> Yes, yes they do, sorry, but I have seen it for years in Aikikai Aikido. Like I said, don't believe if that works for you, I am not out to prove anything to you, just stating the facts, that is all.



Yet you can't reference a single instance of when they do, what technique is involved, and any Akikai demonstrations  that involve the defender striking. By striking I mean punching, karate chopping, kicking etc


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## Alan Smithee

And yes there are old pictures of O sensei punching as the defender but it was not passed on in their actual curriculum.


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## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> Well I have told a sparring partner that a jab is coming and still tagged him. But it's a mute point since I already addressed that it doesn't matter if I know or not which type of joint lock is coming.
> 
> Your body is going to automatically refrain from someone grabbing the wrist. You do not need to tell it to watch out for a joint lock


well you need better sparing partners then, we could spend ten minets with you failing to punch me, if i had enough room.

but no, people who dont know better, constantly present their arm for a lock to be applied, they try and grab you, if they succeed in grabbing your clothing then a lock is ready and waiting for you to apply. if they were expecting a lock they wouldn't do that, but as ive said all techniques against physically similar similar opponents are dependent on catch the other guy by surprise


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## punisher73

Alan Smithee said:


> The defender, the one who is actually applying a joint lock, does NOT strike in Akikai Aikido.



What you mean to say is that the Aikido YOU have seen didn't strike.  The Aikido dojo (Seidokan Aikido) I trained at, trained strikes with all of their techniques when applicable.  Many of the techniques only work because of the reaction you are getting from your strike.


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## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> well you need better sparing partners then, we could spend ten minets with you failing to punch me, if i had enough room.



That is assuming you have room. Even if someone unrealistically grabs your wrist (leftover from the samurai era of stopping someone pulling a sword) you will not be able to move him, if he's just as strong as you


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## Alan Smithee

punisher73 said:


> What you mean to say is that the Aikido YOU have seen didn't strike.  The Aikido dojo (Seidokan Aikido) I trained at, trained strikes with all of their techniques when applicable.  Many of the techniques only work because of the reaction you are getting from your strike.



Men those are offspring hybrid styles of Aikido. Still don't think it will work


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## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> That is assuming you have room. Even if someone unrealistically grabs your wrist (leftover from the samurai era of stopping someone pulling a sword) you will not be able to move him, if he's just as strong as you


 i didn't say anything about grabbing wrists, i said grabs your clothing, which is not unrealistic, its 90% of all the fights ive seen, start with one person grabbing the other one, of the other 10% 90% of those start with a wild hay maker


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## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> i didn't say anything about grabbing wrists, i said grabs your clothing, which is not unrealistic, its 90% of all the fights ive seen, start with one person grabbing the other one, of the other 10% 90% of those start with a wild hay maker



You wrote if you have room I won't be able to strike you, to which I reply: you do not always have room to just run away. 

If you someone grabs your clothing who is just as strong as you, you will not likely be able to joint lock him. Shoulder throw maybe, but even there Aikido has one version and no back-ups, whereas Judo has a plethora of variations to the throws.  So you are still walking a fine line.


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## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> You wrote if you have room I won't be able to strike you, to which I reply: you do not always have room to just run away.
> 
> If you someone grabs your clothing who is just as strong as you, you will not likely be able to joint lock him. Shoulder throw maybe, but even there Aikido has one version and no back-ups, whereas Judo has a plethora of variations to the throws.  So you are still walking a fine line.


well you've clearly got no fighting experiences, im not convinced you've got any aikido experiences, just on some Bushido expedition.

so your saying'' not likely'' now, you started off saying it was impossible. so that is a major concession on your part. how have you assessed the likelihood and what % does '' '' not likely '' represent


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## Alan Smithee

punisher73 said:


> Nowhere do I say you HAVE to roll or your wrist will be broke, but if you don't release the pressure in some manner, you will be injured, which is why people "throw" (roll).




Still nonsensical. You will not be able to move an equally strong opponents wrist, let alone injure it. Striking the dude as a deflection, then move over to the joint lock won't change a thing, he will react the same anyway and restrain.

If you are good enough to completely knock him out, well then your joint lock is pointless lol


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## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> well you've clearly got no fighting experiences, im not convinced you've got any aikido experiences, just on some Bushido expedition.
> 
> so your saying'' not likely'' now, you started off saying it was impossible. so that is a major concession on your part. how have you assessed the likelihood and what % does '' '' not likely '' represent



I have done joint manipulation for 4 years straight out of Aikidio.


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## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> so your saying'' not likely'' now, you started off saying it was impossible. so that is a major concession on your part. how have you assessed the likelihood and what % does '' '' not likely '' represent



In any reasonable circumstance you will fail. That's what it means. I do not know if the best Aikidoka of all time would be able to, but I find it likely that you are NOT that guy.


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## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> I have done joint manipulation for 4 years straight out of Aikidio.


so no fighting experiences then ?


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## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> so no fighting experiences then ?



What do you mean by fighting experience? I have had street fights if that's what you mean. I had the instructor trying to prove that what he was teaching works if I don't comply. He failed. Then I tried with my partner back and forth - same results. My partner actually was the one suggesting that: "there is no way this would work".


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## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> In any reasonable circumstance you will fail. That's what it means. I do not know if the best Aikidoka of all time would be able to, but I find it likely that you are NOT that guy.


your not answering the question , how have you assessed the likelihood ?

you just keep changing the definition with out stating what you mean

so far we have had''' impossible
not likely and now
reasonable circumstances

what are you basing this plethora of measures on ?


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## Xue Sheng

Alan Smithee said:


> Yet you can't reference a single instance of when they do, what technique is involved, and any Akikai demonstrations  that involve the defender striking. By striking I mean punching, karate chopping, kicking etc



By striking I am referring to punching and palm strikes, used by the defender, prior to the application.

But like I said, I don't train it, I watch it, been watching it for 7 years, I don't know the names of the things being done, they are all in Japanese and I don't need to know them, and I said if you don't want to believe it, don't, it matters not to me what you believe. But based on what you are saying here...you may want to look for a different dojo to train at. Or look to a different style, you don't seem to like Aikido as you currently train it.

You have a nice day.


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## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> What do you mean by fighting experience? I have had street fights if that's what you mean. I had the instructor trying to prove that what he was teaching works if I don't comply. He failed. Then I tried with my partner back and forth - same results. My partner actually was the one suggesting that: "there is no way this would work".


 you dont seem to understand the mechanics of a fight at all, you dont know that grabbing your clothing is a very common means of attack, you dismissed as very unlikely..
if someones telling me what will and will not work as self defence i want to know where that opinion has come from, partner drill from any martial arts are not a good measure


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## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> your not answering the question , how have you assessed the likelihood ?
> 
> you just keep changing the definition with out stating what you mean
> 
> so far we have had''' impossible
> not likely and now
> reasonable circumstances
> 
> what are you basing this plethora of measures on ?



Never once used the word impossible. I stated scenarios in which it works.


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## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> you dont seem to understand the mechanics of a fight at all, you dont know that grabbing your clothing is a very common means of attack, you dismissed as very unlikely..
> if someones telling me what will and will not work as self defence i want to know where that opinion has come from, partner drill from any martial arts are not a good measure



No, I dismissed *grabbing someones wrist *as unlikely, and stupid.


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## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> No, I dismissed *grabbing someones wrist *as unlikely, and stupid.


but if someone grabs my coat, grabbing their stationary wrist is both very likely and and not at all stupid, if it translates into an arm bar.

but we are still waiting for the answers to how you've assessed such things


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## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> Never once used the word impossible. I stated scenarios in which it works.


you said '' this will never work'' thats the same as impossible.

be clear , are you saying it will never work or not ?


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## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> you said '' this will never work'' thats the same as impossible.
> 
> be clear , are you saying it will never work or not ?



No I didn't. I wrote 99% won't work against someone the same physical strength as yourself.


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## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> No I didn't. I wrote 99% won't work against someone the same physical strength as yourself.


 right so tell us about the 99 people you tried it on to come to this conclusion` and how did you assess their physical strength prior to the confrontation ?


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## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> right so tell us about the 99 people you tried it on to come to this conclusion` and how did you assess their physical strength prior to the confrontation ?



You can't know. That's the problem.. You'll just notice when those clockwise and counter clockwise rotations, aren't rotating...


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## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> You can't know. That's the problem.. You'll just notice when those clockwise and counter clockwise rotations, aren't rotating...


so after all this we have come down to YOU DONT KNOW if it will work or not as you have never tried it ?

thats a long way from your claims that you know it wont work 99% of the time


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## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> so after all this we have come down to YOU DONT KNOW if it will work or not as you have never tried it ?
> 
> thats a long way from your claims that you know it wont work 99% of the time



Wrong. You don't know *in advance.*


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## Buka

I have found that “he can’t, it can’t, highly unlikely, and it doesn’t work that way “ is often followed by “except for, in that case and but, that’s different.”

Of course I might have felt otherwise four years into things. Heck, I haven’t had to control a violent offender in a couple of months now. Maybe things have changed.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Buka said:


> I have found that “he can’t, it can’t, highly unlikely, and it doesn’t work that way “ is often followed by “except for, in that case and but, that’s different.”
> 
> Of course I might have felt otherwise four years into things. Heck, I haven’t had to control a violent offender in a couple of months now. Maybe things have changed.



He might trip


----------



## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> Wrong. You don't know *in advance.*


 you cant know in advance that anything is going to work, not unless you have some sort of physic  abilities


----------



## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> you cant know in advance that anything is going to work, not unless you have some sort of physic  abilities



There's a difference. In the case of joint locks you can exclude success against the entire population of people same strength or above yourself, unless they slip, trip, or are feeling sick.


----------



## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> There's a difference. In the case of joint locks you can exclude success against the entire population of people same strength or above yourself, unless they slip, trip, or are feeling sick.


yes but your back to making a claim, that you have repeated refused to back up with any actual data.

if thats you opinion, i respect it, I know your wrong, but hell most of the world is wrong, it doesn't make you a bad person, but your passing your opinion off as fact with out presenting any evidence 

do you have any actual evidence, data or anything but a few anecdotes ?


----------



## Buka

Alan Smithee said:


> He might trip



He might indeed. Sometimes it’s even written up that way in a report.


----------



## Flying Crane

Alan Smithee said:


> The defender, the one who is actually applying a joint lock, does NOT strike in Akikai Aikido.


Is this your conclusion because you’ve never seen it on YouTube?


----------



## Flying Crane

Alan Smithee said:


> No I didn't. I wrote 99% won't work against someone the same physical strength as yourself.


Where did you come up with 99%?


----------



## Flying Crane

I like chocolate ice cream best.  My tastes are simple.  I don’t go for the Rocky Roads and stuff.


----------



## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> yes but your back to making a claim, that you have repeated refused to back up with any actual data.
> 
> if thats you opinion, i respect it, I know your wrong, but hell most of the world is wrong, it doesn't make you a bad person, but your passing your opinion off as fact with out presenting any evidence
> 
> do you have any actual evidence, data or anything but a few anecdotes ?



why dont you try it. ask someone who's strong as you or stronger to resist your joint manipulation without telling him about it. Or don't even tell him you want to joint lock, just ask to grapple with full resistance. Whatever you want. See how far you it will take you.


----------



## punisher73

Alan Smithee said:


> Men those are offspring hybrid styles of Aikido. Still don't think it will work



Aikikai is the main branch of Aikido and was continued on by his son.  Morihei Saito maintains and teaches aikido the way he learned it from Ueshiba and contains atemi/strikes.  Seidokan is a combining of Aikikai and Tohei's ki principles.  

If you are interested, get "Budo" by Ueshiba.  The pictures all show Ueshiba striking into vital points before the technique.  Just because a school may choose not to teach something, it does NOT mean that it is not part of the system or taught.


----------



## Alan Smithee

punisher73 said:


> Aikikai is the main branch of Aikido and was continued on by his son.  Morihei Saito maintains and teaches aikido the way he learned it from Ueshiba and contains atemi/strikes.  Seidokan is a combining of Aikikai and Tohei's ki principles.
> 
> If you are interested, get "Budo" by Ueshiba.  The pictures all show Ueshiba striking into vital points before the technique.  Just because a school may choose not to teach something, it does NOT mean that it is not part of the system or taught.



Tohei branched off a little bit. Some striking is part of Aikido. Striking does not however solve anything with regards to rotating someones wrist. Again, if you fight someone who's weaker than you or incompetent, anything works. If not, you're gonna get stripped and better think out something else, like a throw or new strikes.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

For any joint lock, you have to be able to change the angle according your opponent's respond. 

For example, your wrist lock should be able to handle at least 3 different angles.

downward -> horizontal -> pulling

When your opponent

- raises his elbow, you change your downward pressure to horizontal pressure.
- turns his body, you change your horizontal pressure to horizontal pulling.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Kung Fu Wang said:


> For any joint lock, you have to be able to change the angle according your opponent's respond.
> 
> For example, your wrist lock should be able to handle at least 3 different angles.
> 
> downward -> horizontal -> pulling
> 
> When your opponent
> 
> - raises his elbow, you change your downward pressure to horizontal pressure.
> - turns his body, you change your horizontal pressure to horizontal pulling.



Have you tried it against a full resisting, equally strong/big opponent?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Alan Smithee said:


> Have you tried it against a full resisting, equally strong/big opponent?


Yes! Many times. Joint locking is just like throwing, you have to learn it in pairs (in the opposite direction). When you try to lock your opponent in one direction, if he resists, you borrow his resistance force, and lock him into the opposite direction. It's just like if I pull you and you resists, I then borrow your resistance force and push you. My pushing may only need very little force.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Yes! Many times. Joint locking is just like throwing, you have to learn it in pairs (in the opposite direction). When you try to lock your opponent in one direction, if he resists, you borrow his resistance force, and lock him into the opposite direction. It's just like if I pull you and you resists, I then borrow your resistance force and push you. My pushing may only need very little force.



I'm familiar with joint manipulation after 4 years


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Alan Smithee said:


> I'm familiar with joint manipulation after 4 years


You can learn all 40 joint locking in 6 hours. It may take you full life time to master it.


----------



## punisher73

Alan Smithee said:


> Tohei branched off a little bit. Some striking is part of Aikido. Striking does not however solve anything with regards to rotating someones wrist. Again, if you fight someone who's weaker than you or incompetent, anything works. If not, you're gonna get stripped and better think out something else, like a throw or new strikes.



From your responses, I don't think that you have ever trained with someone who understood their time and place or had enough knowledge to address your concerns.

For the record, I am NOT saying that any technique is 100%.  But, your objections in the scenarios given don't give the information that should have been shown on how to address that.

For example, "striking does not solve anything with regards to rotating someone's wrist".  Please elaborate on HOW you got to that point.  If you think that you just punched someone and then decided to grab their wrist for a lock, then you don't understand the application of a wrist lock.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's just like if I pull you and you resists, I then borrow your resistance force and push you. My pushing may only need very little force.



That makes no sense physically, and it did not work for me or anyone else. But I'm sure you had full live resistance in a traditional martial arts class so I take your word for it


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Alan Smithee said:


> I'm familiar with joint manipulation after 4 years


Here is an example of:

downward -> horizontal -> pulling.






Here is an example to borrow your opponent's resistance, and change your force direction: 

elbow lock -> shoulder lock.


----------



## Alan Smithee

punisher73 said:


> From your responses, I don't think that you have ever trained with someone who understood their time and place or had enough knowledge to address your concerns.
> 
> For the record, I am NOT saying that any technique is 100%.  But, your objections in the scenarios given don't give the information that should have been shown on how to address that.
> 
> For example, "striking does not solve anything with regards to rotating someone's wrist".  Please elaborate on HOW you got to that point.  If you think that you just punched someone and then decided to grab their wrist for a lock, then you don't understand the application of a wrist lock.



Because the persons reaction to you grapping the wrist won't change. You do realize that you are in a minority with your view? Why do you think that is? Why isn't there the same bias against Judo and BJJ? Have you ever pondered that?

I have nothing against Aikido. Certainly not the only unrealistic martial art, but the disconnect from reality is unfortunately even worse than what is usual for TMA


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Alan Smithee said:


> That makes no sense physically, and it did not work for me or anyone else. But I'm sure you had full live resistance in a traditional martial arts class so I take your word for it


This is in competition (not demo, not in class). If you know how to borrow your opponent's force, you don't need much of your own force.

Here is the pulling:






Here is the result of pulling.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is in competition (not demo, not in class). If you know how to borrow your opponent's force, you don't need much of your own force.
> 
> Here is the pulling:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the result of pulling.



What is that? Some underground Kung Fu tournament?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Alan Smithee said:


> I'm familiar with joint manipulation after 4 years


Apparently not.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Alan Smithee said:


> Because the persons reaction to you grapping the wrist won't change. You do realize that you are in a minority with your view? Why do you think that is? Why isn't there the same bias against Judo and BJJ? Have you ever pondered that?
> 
> I have nothing against Aikido. Certainly not the only unrealistic martial art, but the disconnect from reality is unfortunately even worse than what is usual for TMA


The push pull concept you're stating doesn't work is used in both judo and bjj though.


----------



## Alan Smithee

kempodisciple said:


> The push pull concept you're stating doesn't work is used in both judo and bjj though.



Using their entire bodies in a different setting. Not trying to flick someones wrist with your arm.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Alan Smithee said:


> What is that? Some underground Kung Fu tournament?


On the wall, it said "North Texas Shuai Chiao Association". It's the annual match between the Austin, Texas SC (Chinese wrestling) team with the Dallas, Texas SC team.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Alan Smithee said:


> That makes no sense physically, and it did not work for me or anyone else. But I'm sure you had full live resistance in a traditional martial arts class so I take your word for it


Here is another example to use pull to set up push. It's tournament. It's neither demo nor class training. Is it full live resistance? I'll say yes. Nobody wants to lose in a tournament.


----------



## vince1

Xue Sheng said:


> Not true, the defender does strike in aikido, at least in Aikikai, as it is taught in the dojo my youngest goes to. And the sensei of the school is a Shihan 7th Dan who has been training for many many years



We strike and kick in the martial art I practice, Aikijuijitsu. Eyes and throat are not off limits. lol


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Alan Smithee said:


> Using their entire bodies in a different setting. Not trying to flick someones wrist with your arm.


Wrist locks/joint manipulation is seen in judo too, and used pretty effectively by some cop friends of mine. And if you think you are either a: trying to flick a wrist, or b: only using your arm, I'll refer you back to my other comment that you are apparently not familiar with _correct _joint manipulation.


----------



## Alan Smithee

kempodisciple said:


> Wrist locks/joint manipulation is seen in judo too, and used pretty effectively by some cop .



Not so much these days. I'm sure it's kept among its outdated SD portion of Judo, just like Karate and Taekwondo.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Alan Smithee said:


> I have challenged people on it, including instructors giving out the lecture, and others have too. They can't apply it to me and I can't apply it to them. Simple as that.


If you can use

- shaking force, or
- body unification force,

to interrupt your opponent's force generation during the initial state, none of your opponent's technique can apply on you. The simplest example is when you touch your hand on your opponent's right shoulder, his right arm cannot punch out.

MA is a paradox. You are not a good MA person if

1. you can't apply joint lock on your opponent.
2. your opponent can apply joint lock on you.

1 and 2 just contradict to each other.​


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Alan Smithee said:


> Not so much these days. I'm sure it's kept among its outdated SD portion of Judo, just like Karate and Taekwondo.


You need to get out more then. It's been included in every judo/jujutsu school I've been to, except one bjj school (where it's part of their jjj curriculum). And again, used by cops in those schools effectively.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

kempodisciple said:


> used by cops in those schools effectively.


It's used in Chinese police force. You can get a lot of good information from this clip.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's used in Chinese police force. You can get a lot of good information from this clip.



Yup, I trained a little bit of this. There is also a real nasty kick that is aimed and the underside of the jaw too. The shifu did not use boxing gloves and pads though, we used trees with no gloves at all. Palm strikes I could do, he never used fists, but I could not bring myself to kick, shin, forearm strike or elbow strike trees. The shifu was from Heilongjiang


----------



## Alan Smithee

kempodisciple said:


> You need to get out more then. It's been included in every judo/jujutsu school I've been to, except one bjj school (where it's part of their jjj curriculum). And again, used by cops in those schools effectively.



I wrote "not so much". The police argument has already been addressed.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can use
> 
> - shaking force, or
> - body unification force,
> 
> to interrupt your opponent's force generation during the initial state, none of your opponent's technique can apply on you. The simplest example is when you touch your hand on your opponent's right shoulder, his right arm cannot punch out.
> 
> MA is a paradox. You are not a good MA person if
> 
> 1. you can't apply joint lock on your opponent.
> 2. your opponent can apply joint lock on you.
> 
> 1 and 2 just contradict to each other.​



Lol no. It has nothing to do with me and my skill, it's physiology. You can take a steroid head from the gym with no martial arts experience and ask him to restrain, it doesn't matter.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Kung Fu Wang said:


> MA is a paradox. You are not a good MA person if
> 
> 1. you can't apply joint lock on your opponent.
> 2. your opponent can apply joint lock on you.
> 
> 1 and 2 just contradict to each other.​



I reject both.


----------



## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> why dont you try it. ask someone who's strong as you or stronger to resist your joint manipulation without telling him about it. Or don't even tell him you want to joint lock, just ask to grapple with full resistance. Whatever you want. See how far you it will take you.


you want me to prove your point , coz you cant ?

but yes i have used joint locks against people much stronger than me, thats how i know your talking rubbish


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Alan Smithee said:


> Lol no. It has nothing to do with me and my skill, it's physiology. You can take a steroid head from the gym with no martial arts experience and ask him to restrain, it doesn't matter.


Have you heard about "unbendable arm"? 

If you treat your arm as a pipe with water flow from your shoulder to your finger tips, it will be difficult for your opponent to bend your arm. That's called "body unification".


----------



## wab25

Alan Smithee said:


> Is a myth 99% of the time. The reality is that you can't apply the joint lock whatsoever on a person of similar build and strength if the person resists. You just get stuck. Believe me, I have challenged people on it, including instructors giving out the lecture, and others have too. They can't apply it to me and I can't apply it to them. Simple as that.
> 
> So where does this notion stem from that you have to cooperate? It's just not true.
> 
> With that in mind, how do you know where your level of Aikido is if it's never tested? What are the criterias? Is it something to do with center of gravity and balance, flow? I have no idea since it's a cooperation between individuals.



So, I am wondering what you are trying to accomplish with this thread... 

Are we all supposed to quit studying Aikido?

Are we supposed to fix Aikido somehow?

Are you trying to impress folks with your vast and enlightened understanding?

You certainly are not trying to discuss or learn anything here... as you outright reject all but your own opinion.

Of course you can't take someone's wrist in your hand, and flick it over to apply a joint lock. You have to unify your body, so that you are in a good stance, and on balance to maximize the power you can deliver. You need to break the other guys stance, to limit the amount of power he can generate. You need to take him off balance to further limit the amount of power he can generate. You then need to unify your body to apply your force in the correct direction, to maximize the effect of the force you can create.

But, I guess you are beyond all this, what with 4 years of training... and that is 4 years *straight*.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Alan Smithee said:


> I wrote "not so much". The police argument has already been addressed.


You cant use "not so much" to dismiss it when just about every school teaches it.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

@Alan Smithee you're also arguing to a bunch of people that have used wrist locks/joint locks successfully against fully resisting opponents/in fights, that what we have done cannot be done. With no reason why we should believe you, except that you cannot make it work. I think it's much more likely you just did not learn it correctly.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

kempodisciple said:


> I think it's much more likely you just did not learn it correctly.


Agree! To fully understand the "key point" is important.



Alan Smithee said:


> I can't apply it to them.


Have you achieved the following?

1. Raise your elbow and drop your wrist - To raise your elbow is important. To drop your arm (both of your elbow and wrist) won't work. 
2. Move your body forward until your opponent is on the ground - To move your body forward is important. To stand still, or move back is not good enough. To let your opponent to stand on his feet is not good enough. You have to force him down to the ground.


----------



## Alan Smithee

kempodisciple said:


> @Alan Smithee you're also arguing to a bunch of people that have used wrist locks/joint locks successfully against fully resisting opponents/in fights, that what we have done cannot be done. With no reason why we should believe you, except that you cannot make it work. I think it's much more likely you just did not learn it correctly.



Haha. I'm not even gonna bother to ask who they were and their level of equilibirum.


----------



## Alan Smithee

kempodisciple said:


> You cant use "not so much" to dismiss it when just about every school teaches it.



That is compatible with every school. It was not a numerical statement.


----------



## Alan Smithee

wab25 said:


> So, I am wondering what you are trying to accomplish with this thread...
> 
> Are we all supposed to quit studying Aikido?
> 
> Are we supposed to fix Aikido somehow?
> 
> Are you trying to impress folks with your vast and enlightened understanding?
> 
> You certainly are not trying to discuss or learn anything here... as you outright reject all but your own opinion.
> 
> Of course you can't take someone's wrist in your hand, and flick it over to apply a joint lock. You have to unify your body, so that you are in a good stance, and on balance to maximize the power you can deliver. You need to break the other guys stance, to limit the amount of power he can generate. You need to take him off balance to further limit the amount of power he can generate. You then need to unify your body to apply your force in the correct direction, to maximize the effect of the force you can create.
> 
> But, I guess you are beyond all this, what with 4 years of training... and that is 4 years *straight*.



The thread was meant to the discuss the myth that you have to submit once an Aikidoka has a hold of your joint or else you get injured. It's a complete and utter myth. It is not hard to resist.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Alan Smithee said:


> That is compatible with every school. It was not a numerical statement.


Not so much and every are almost opposites. Especially when youre argumebt was that its not common.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Alan Smithee said:


> Haha. I'm not even gonna bother to ask who they were and their level of equilibirum.


So now it's gone from "will not work on resisting people" to "will work if they trip or something" to "doesn't matter if they're resisting if they're not someone important/you messed with their balance first" (which as an aside messing with a persons balance is done in any throw or joint lock. If you did not learn that, again, you did not learn them correctly).


----------



## drop bear

Alan Smithee said:


> The thread was meant to the discuss the myth that you have to submit once an Aikidoka has a hold of your joint or else you get injured. It's a complete and utter myth. It is not hard to resist.



It is because Aikido has very little practical ability to apply wrist control.

This is a Russian wrist snap from wrestling. And it will put you over without having to break your wrist in the process.

https://www.flowrestling.org/video/6164275-behind-the-dirt-russian-wrist-snap

BJJ wrist lock.





Aikido wrist lock.


----------



## Alan Smithee

kempodisciple said:


> So now it's gone from "will not work on resisting people" to "will work if they trip or something" to "doesn't matter if they're resisting if they're not someone important/you messed with their balance first" (which as an aside messing with a persons balance is done in any throw or joint lock. If you did not learn that, again, you did not learn them correctly).



No it hasn't gone from anything of the sorts. You guys have not made one accurate recount so far of what I've written.


----------



## dvcochran

Alan Smithee said:


> Even trying distracting tactics, it usually doesn't work. My assistant instructor did all kinds of crazy things trying to get the joint lock in.
> 
> I'm surprised it ever caught on.. Like you mention, Karate and TKD do have these things as well in smaller portion of the curriculum labelled "Self defence".


We have several individual techniques and one/three steps drills it that is what you are asking. 
In the vein of titling something as purely "self defense" I think it gets a bad rap as it is often poorly taught and not explained well enough. Drilling has to be very comprehensive to be effective at a high percentage. Then there are all the mental/physical/social ques to learn how to read.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Alan Smithee said:


> The thread was meant to the discuss the myth that you have to submit once an Aikidoka has a hold of your joint or else you get injured. It's a complete and utter myth. It is not hard to resist.


Sometime your opponent gives up is just to prevent himself from injury. This is not only applied in Aikido. It applies to all throwing arts.

If your opponent flips himself, he will release the pressure with safe landing.






If your opponent doesn't flip, he may have too much pressure on his shoulder joint. This can be dangerous if you don't know your training partner well.


----------



## Bruce7

Alan Smithee said:


> Is a myth 99% of the time. The reality is that you can't apply the joint lock whatsoever on a person of similar build and strength if the person resists. You just get stuck. Believe me, I have challenged people on it, including instructors giving out the lecture, and others have too. They can't apply it to me and I can't apply it to them. Simple as that.
> 
> So where does this notion stem from that you have to cooperate? It's just not true.
> 
> With that in mind, how do you know where your level of Aikido is if it's never tested? What are the criterias? Is it something to do with center of gravity and balance, flow? I have no idea since it's a cooperation between individuals.


----------



## Bruce7

I think I know what you are talking about or may be not.
I had studied striking arts for 6 years before taking Aikido and I thought I or no one could use Aikido against a striking art.
While students could not do anything against a striking art. My teachers with 30 years of practice every day since they were 10 years old could.
Masters of Aikido can slip your punches and kicks and use your body movement against you and when they put a wrist lock on you and spin you to the ground you learn real respect for their art. I think it takes many years for Aikido to be effective , but it can be very effective.
After a year of hard work I still felt I could not use Aikido alone against a striking art.
4 years seems like a long time, but it may take many more years for it to be effective for you.


----------



## Gweilo

punisher73 said:


> Ueshiba even said that you should be striking (atemi) before applying any joint lock. How many actually practice this? I'm sure when you wanted to disprove the wrist locks, your partner didn't punch or kick you to loosen you up and take your mind of the joint lock.


@Alan Smithee , that is your answer in a nut shell so to speak, I have not trained in Aikido, I trained in Hapkido, but my current Systema instructor acheived 5th Dan in Aikido, it's a topic we cover weekly in all senario, if an opponents mind is in a specific part of the body, attack the next joint, or another part of the body. The same is true of your mind when countering, I think it was Jobo that said if you know what's coming, it's easier to negate.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Gweilo said:


> @Alan Smithee , that is your answer in a nut shell so to speak, I have not trained in Aikido, I trained in Hapkido, but my current Systema instructor acheived 5th Dan in Aikido, it's a topic we cover weekly in all senario, if an opponents mind is in a specific part of the body, attack the next joint, or another part of the body. The same is true of your mind when countering, I think it was Jobo that said if you know what's coming, it's easier to negate.



Haha. I have now seen all gradings of Aikikai Aikido and there are no strikes. So no, there is no science of countering with a strike. Total ballony.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Sometime your opponent gives up is just to prevent himself from injury. This is not only applied in Aikido. It applies to all throwing arts.
> 
> If your opponent flips himself, he will release the pressure with safe landing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If your opponent doesn't flip, he may have too much pressure on his shoulder joint. This can be dangerous if you don't know your training partner well.



Again, we've tried it. Nothing happens if I don't cooperate with my hand, and nobody can move it in my weight class.


----------



## Alan Smithee

dvcochran said:


> We have several individual techniques and one/three steps drills it that is what you are asking.
> In the vein of titling something as purely "self defense" I think it gets a bad rap as it is often poorly taught and not explained well enough. Drilling has to be very comprehensive to be effective at a high percentage. Then there are all the mental/physical/social ques to learn how to read.



Yeah but even the hard stiles of Aikido are choreographed so it doesn't really matter.

I'm very critical how this is anything but artificial martial arts if you never do full contact/live resistance sparring.

I'm pretty sure there's a good reason for why there isn't sparring, and that's because they wouldn't have been able to apply the moves.


----------



## Gweilo

Alan Smithee said:


> So no, there is no science of countering with a strike. Total ballony



????


----------



## Alan Smithee

Gweilo said:


> ????



Yep. They don't train strikes and defender does not strike all the way up to highest DAN. It's true. Check the curriculum.


----------



## Alan Smithee

I will say about Aikido that If we all had robot arms and these things were actually applicable to half decent resisting opponents, then I would rate it highly among the joint lock arts.

I think Oeshiba or whoever it was that systematized it did a good job. It's fairly coherent from white belt to 4th Dan, and the fall techniques look cool.

In other traditional martial arts, there's usually some kata that look downright stupid and out of place but Aikido does a better job in that regard.


----------



## dvcochran

Alan Smithee said:


> Yeah but even the hard stiles of Aikido are choreographed so it doesn't really matter.
> 
> I'm very critical how this is anything but artificial martial arts if you never do full contact/live resistance sparring.
> 
> I'm pretty sure there's a good reason for why there isn't sparring, and that's because they wouldn't have been able to apply the moves.


I have lost the point of the thread. Are we now talking about a school that never spars?
 Yes, that would reduce the practical effectiveness. However, a lot of sparring in some schools is specific to tournament rules and does not 100% transfer. But the factors of interaction, adversity, and simply not knowing what the other person is going to do would apply. 
I have never practiced or even been to an Aikido dojo. Is not sparring typical?


----------



## dvcochran

Bruce7 said:


> I think I know what you are talking about or may be not.
> I had studied striking arts for 6 years before taking Aikido and I thought I or no one could use Aikido against a striking art.
> While students could not do anything against a striking art. My teachers with 30 years of practice every day since they were 10 years old could.
> Masters of Aikido can slip your punches and kicks and use your body movement against you and when they put a wrist lock on you and spin you to the ground you learn real respect for their art. I think it takes many years for Aikido to be effective , but it can be very effective.
> After a year of hard work I still felt I could not use Aikido alone against a striking art.
> 4 years seems like a long time, but it may take many more years for it to be effective for you.


@Alan Smithee , @Bruce7 makes a very good point. Apparently it takes a long time to become truly proficient in Aikido. Factors like mean practice time and quality of training/practice are huge factors. Maybe you just have not had enough time for things to gel? 

Like most threads, the replies are all over the map. To help the thread get back on track, what exactly is the point you are trying to make?


----------



## Alan Smithee

dvcochran said:


> @Alan Smithee , @Bruce7 makes a very good point. Apparently it takes a long time to become truly proficient in Aikido. Factors like mean practice time and quality of training/practice are huge factors. Maybe you just have not had enough time for things to gel?
> 
> Like most threads, the replies are all over the map. To help the thread get back on track, what exactly is the point you are trying to make?



Read the OP.


----------



## Alan Smithee

dvcochran said:


> @Alan Smithee , @Bruce7 makes a very good point. Apparently it takes a long time to become truly proficient in Aikido.



How is that even possible? You never apply techniques with resistance from your partner. It's all choreographed.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> Is a myth 99% of the time. The reality is that you can't apply the joint lock whatsoever on a person of similar build and strength if the person resists. You just get stuck. Believe me, I have challenged people on it, including instructors giving out the lecture, and others have too. They can't apply it to me and I can't apply it to them. Simple as that.
> 
> So where does this notion stem from that you have to cooperate? It's just not true.
> 
> With that in mind, how do you know where your level of Aikido is if it's never tested? What are the criterias? Is it something to do with center of gravity and balance, flow? I have no idea since it's a cooperation between individuals.


Once the technique is in place, taking the fall is self-protection - like tapping out. Like any technique, if it is resisted (the right way) it will fail. The problem with how most folks look at most Aikido techniques is that they are actually techniques of opportunity. You use them when they are available (for some of them, IMO, that's quite seldom). You can't force them, not even the last section of the technique (like you can with the last part of a ground arm bar, for instance) - they simply don't work that way.

Some of the techniques go from the attempt to full lock with too much momentum to risk waiting to see if they are going to work. This means having to start the ukemi (fall or whatever) before the pain shows up. This often fosters folks just taking the fall without ever making sure the technique was actually going to work. There are ways to deal with this in training, but I don't see enough attention to it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> I did not write anywhere that Aikido works without cooperation between individuals of similar strength.
> 
> A police officer vs a junkie, it obviously work. Junkies aren't exactly known for their athletic prowess and keeping in shape.
> 
> A super heavyweight vs a middleweight, might work on them too. Again, if the discrepancy is large it has a chance of working. But then again, everything does.


The second example seems to imply a lack of understanding of the way aiki techniques work.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> Even trying distracting tactics, it usually doesn't work. My assistant instructor did all kinds of crazy things trying to get the joint lock in.
> 
> I'm surprised it ever caught on.. Like you mention, Karate and TKD do have these things as well in smaller portion of the curriculum labelled "Self defence".


The problem is :trying to get the joint lock in". That's not how the aiki approach works. If someone is resisting one technique, they're probably opening up for something else. Strikes are an obvious alternative (which are not covered nearly enough in most Aikido schools).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> It is not a defect of all martial arts. A person of the same build in many other martial arts can reasonably apply a successful technique to someone of the same build.


Tell a Judoka what throw you're going to do. Then do it. It won't work.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> Funny since that is not how it's practiced. The defender never punches or kicks in Aikido, only the attacker. They don't even strike theoretically as the defender in Aikido.


True in most dojos, unfortunately. Oddly, Ueshiba is quoted as having said something like "Aikido is 70% atemi".


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> It does not matter if you grab a hold of my wrist (which is an unlikely scenario in and of itself but leaving that aside) and I don't know which type of joint lock technique coming. It has no bearing on the success rate of it. You cannot move my arm unless you are: a) stronger than me or b) I don't resist.


You forgot c): you're resisting in the wrong direction (so your resistance isn't to the technique being used). That's how Aikido works, when it works.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> And yes there are old pictures of O sensei punching as the defender but it was not passed on in their actual curriculum.


I have theories about the progression of the curriculum. I'm not sure how accurate my theories are (I'm not in Ueshiba's Aikido, so it's more a matter of intellectual curiosity for me), but they explain a lot about the absence of striking in a lot of Aikido curricula.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> You wrote if you have room I won't be able to strike you, to which I reply: you do not always have room to just run away.
> 
> If you someone grabs your clothing who is just as strong as you, you will not likely be able to joint lock him. Shoulder throw maybe, but even there Aikido has one version and no back-ups, whereas Judo has a plethora of variations to the throws.  So you are still walking a fine line.


I don't think you really understand joint locks.


----------



## Alan Smithee

gpseymour said:


> The second example seems to imply a lack of understanding of the way aiki techniques work.



I think you're misreading me. The very fact that the principles of Aikido does NOT work against live resistance, you will have to brute force them and they might work then if you are substantially stronger.


----------



## Alan Smithee

gpseymour said:


> I don't think you really understand joint locks.



Enlighten me then. Tell me how I get better at joint locks over time with no resistance and full choreography?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> I have found that “he can’t, it can’t, highly unlikely, and it doesn’t work that way “ is often followed by “except for, in that case and but, that’s different.”
> 
> Of course I might have felt otherwise four years into things. Heck, I haven’t had to control a violent offender in a couple of months now. Maybe things have changed.


There was an upgrade to kinesiology a couple of weeks ago. It was  big download, but it did change a lot of joints. Check your updates folder.


----------



## Alan Smithee

gpseymour said:


> Tell a Judoka what throw you're going to do. Then do it. It won't work.



What? striking combinations are proven to work. Joint locks don't, all else equal. It has zero significance your knowledge of what's about to come as long as you resist, which you will do instinctively.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> why dont you try it. ask someone who's strong as you or stronger to resist your joint manipulation without telling him about it. Or don't even tell him you want to joint lock, just ask to grapple with full resistance. Whatever you want. See how far you it will take you.


The first part of this post shows a complete lack of understanding of the aiki principles (which exist in other arts, by different names). The second part either displays a lack of range, or a lack of understanding of some additional principles. It may be that those principles were not taught wherever you spent your 4 years.

By the way, 4 years is a short time in most Aikido curricula. By that point in may schools, you'd have gotten the basics, and not much more. The typical Aikido approach isn't designed to get to application quickly.


----------



## Alan Smithee

The principles of side stepping and other things in Aikido are proven to work. So it's not all debunked. 

I'm only attacking the joint manipulation part of the art.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> Have you tried it against a full resisting, equally strong/big opponent?


I have.


----------



## Alan Smithee

gpseymour said:


> The first part of this post shows a complete lack of understanding of the aiki principles (which exist in other arts, by different names). The second part either displays a lack of range, or a lack of understanding of some additional principles. It may be that those principles were not taught wherever you spent your 4 years.
> 
> By the way, 4 years is a short time in most Aikido curricula. By that point in may schools, you'd have gotten the basics, and not much more. The typical Aikido approach isn't designed to get to application quickly.



Again, why are you in a minority believing in Aikido if it truly works? Do you have a conspiracy theory for it?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> That makes no sense physically, and it did not work for me or anyone else. But I'm sure you had full live resistance in a traditional martial arts class so I take your word for it


That you don't understand it, doesn't mean it makes no sense. That you don't understand it does explain why you can't "make it work".


----------



## Alan Smithee

gpseymour said:


> I have.



There is no way that's a full account of what happened and the person was sober/fully functioning./equal strength. I could resist without even being close to excerting myself, against the instructor, and my partner


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> Using their entire bodies in a different setting. Not trying to flick someones wrist with your arm.


"flick someones wrist with your arm" is not a part of Aikido. There's body movement and structure involved. Every time.


----------



## Alan Smithee

gpseymour said:


> "flick someones wrist with your arm" is not a part of Aikido. There's body movement and structure involved. Every time.



No it isn't. They advocate redirecting energy, as if the person attacking me is a mindless automaton.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan Smithee said:


> The reality is that you can't apply the joint lock whatsoever on a person of similar build and strength if the person resists.


 Most people don't train the strength needed to apply Wrist locks.  Most people who try to do it have weak hands. If you aren't doing training like this then you aren't building up the required strength to apply it to a resisting opponent.






If you aren't doing strengthen exercises for applying joint locks then your only real option is to apply the lock when the person is not ready or expecting it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> I have lost the point of the thread. Are we now talking about a school that never spars?
> Yes, that would reduce the practical effectiveness. However, a lot of sparring in some schools is specific to tournament rules and does not 100% transfer. But the factors of interaction, adversity, and simply not knowing what the other person is going to do would apply.
> I have never practiced or even been to an Aikido dojo. Is not sparring typical?


Not in most of the Aikido schools I've visited. It leads to a lot of Aikidoka who don't actually understand what the opportunities for technique really look like, since they've only seen them as a pre-determined set of inputs.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> How is that even possible? You never apply techniques with resistance from your partner. It's all choreographed.


In your experience. That's a very limited sampling.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> I think you're misreading me. The very fact that the principles of Aikido does NOT work against live resistance, you will have to brute force them and they might work then if you are substantially stronger.


I know a significant number of folks who'd disagree, having used those principles in their work lives (cops and bouncers, among others).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> Enlighten me then. Tell me how I get better at joint locks over time with no resistance and full choreography?


First, you have to learn the right principles somewhere along the way. Then I'd suggest including some full resistance. As for "choreography" some of that exists in every training style - it's usually called "drills".


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> What? striking combinations are proven to work. Joint locks don't, all else equal. It has zero significance your knowledge of what's about to come as long as you resist, which you will do instinctively.


Tell a boxer you're going to give him a jab. Then jab. You're going to fail a lot.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> The principles of side stepping and other things in Aikido are proven to work. So it's not all debunked.
> 
> I'm only attacking the joint manipulation part of the art.


Many of your statements suggest you don't understand the manipulation of structure that should go with (actually, precede) the lock.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> Again, why are you in a minority believing in Aikido if it truly works? Do you have a conspiracy theory for it?


People train the way they were trained, is part of the answer. And lots of folks in Aikido are very focused on the aiki aspects. Sometimes (perhaps most often - I can't be sure) to the exclusion of looking at the less-aiki principles and applications. Restricting the available range of options reduces Aikido to a much less useful approach.

I love playing with the aiki principles. I don't think they are dependable on their own - you need the full range.

To clarify my relationship to Aikido, I'm in the family of Aikido arts (as defined by the DNBK), not in the art created by Ueshiba (Nihon Goshin Aikido would be a cousin to that art).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> There is no way that's a full account of what happened and the person was sober/fully functioning./equal strength. I could resist without even being close to excerting myself, against the instructor, and my partner


Because they were trying to do something specific. Aikido doesn't work that way. It just doesn't. And they were probably also limiting themselves (either by habit, on purpose, or because of their training) to the "aiki" options.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> No it isn't. They advocate redirecting energy, as if the person attacking me is a mindless automaton.


Yep. That's a complete misunderstanding of redirection. Your 4 years have been mis-spent.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> Most people don't train the strength needed to apply Wrist locks.  Most people who try to do it have weak hands. If you aren't doing training like this then you aren't building up the required strength to apply it to a resisting opponent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you aren't doing strengthen exercises for applying joint locks then your only real option is to apply the lock when the person is not ready or expecting it.


I don't think specific strength training is necessary if you do enough resistive grappling. I've never done much grip training, but have a stronger than average grip, because of my grappling.


----------



## Alan Smithee

gpseymour said:


> In your experience. That's a very limited sampling.



No... I have seen all gradings. Been to dojos etc. This is how they train. With the possible exception of Tomiki Aikido which is very small style globally.


----------



## Alan Smithee

gpseymour said:


> Yep. That's a complete misunderstanding of redirection. Your 4 years have been mis-spent.



How's that minority view feeling?


----------



## Alan Smithee

gpseymour said:


> Because they were trying to do something specific. Aikido doesn't work that way. It just doesn't. And they were probably also limiting themselves (either by habit, on purpose, or because of their training) to the "aiki" options.



Yes it does. There are plenty of -- "grab my wrist my bro" training in Aikido. And the problem with the rest that they are all choreographed runs and tumbles.


----------



## Flying Crane

Alan Smithee said:


> What? striking combinations are proven to work. Joint locks don't, all else equal. It has zero significance your knowledge of what's about to come as long as you resist, which you will do instinctively.


If you are looking for a system to study, I want to recommend aikido for you.  It sounds like it would be a perfect match for your personality type and your description of what you want in your training.


----------



## Flying Crane

Is anybody else as jazzed as I am about chocolate ice cream?  I really love the stuff.


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> I don't think specific strength training is necessary if you do enough resistive grappling. I've never done much grip training, but have a stronger than average grip, because of my grappling.


I would say it is something that is person specific. If it is a deficit area then it makes sense to augment your training.
We did a Lot of grip strength training in Kali. I have small hands but a decent grip. It is something I have to actively work on, granted I do not do a lot of true grappling (anymore).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> No... I have seen all gradings. Been to dojos etc. This is how they train. With the possible exception of Tomiki Aikido which is very small style globally.


All gradings? Everywhere? At all schools?

Oh, and gradings are not a sampling of the curriculum. They're just what's tested formally. I formally test probably 10% of my curriculum, for instance. The rest is just assessed during training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> How's that minority view feeling?


You seem to misunderstand the concept of "minority view".


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> Yes it does. There are plenty of -- "grab my wrist my bro" training in Aikido. And the problem with the rest that they are all choreographed runs and tumbles.


Again, you're misunderstanding the drills. There's plenty of "give me an overhook" in wrestling. That's the same level of choreography.

Until you understand what should precede a technique, the technique is just dance.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Flying Crane said:


> Is anybody else as jazzed as I am about chocolate ice cream?  I really love the stuff.


I've never much cared for it. Never found one that really tastes chocolately to me. Now vanilla, that is good ice cream. Even the cheap stuff.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> I would say it is something that is person specific. If it is a deficit area then it makes sense to augment your training.
> We did a Lot of grip strength training in Kali. I have small hands but a decent grip. It is something I have to actively work on, granted I do not do a lot of true grappling (anymore).


Good point. Like much in most areas of life, there are different needs.


----------



## Alan Smithee

gpseymour said:


> Again, you're misunderstanding the drills. There's plenty of "give me an overhook" in wrestling. That's the same level of choreography.
> 
> Until you understand what should precede a technique, the technique is just dance.



The difference is that wrestlers also spar. Aikidoka don't spar in the main styles. They just keep on doing those various choreography ad infinitum


----------



## dvcochran

Alan Smithee said:


> How is that even possible? You never apply techniques with resistance from your partner. It's all choreographed.


The obvious answer; IF that is 100% true in your training situation, then there is a problem with your training situation. I said it the way I did because I have no way of knowing if this is an issue with you as a student, your instructor, or your school. I cannot go so far as to say any style is bad. ALL styles have holes that can be filled by learning other styles. It sounds like that may be where you are at. 
You have enough time in your style that you should know if that is the case. 
You have enough time in your style that you should be able to easily (easier than a new student) pick up another style to compliment your current training.
You have enough time in your style that I would think you fee invested. This should create a least a modicum of respect.
You have enough time in your style that you should have been taught and learned not to bash your style. Your school or instructor? Maybe. But that is something better left to yourself.  

This forum is a great place to express your frustrations. It is still unclear where you are going with your post. No one is debating that there needs to be resistance training. You know this as fact.


----------



## Flying Crane

gpseymour said:


> I've never much cared for it. Never found one that really tastes chocolately to me. Now vanilla, that is good ice cream. Even the cheap stuff.


If I forced some chocolate ice cream down your throat, you would learn to like it.  Clearly you are not eating your ice cream with enough raw aggression.


----------



## dvcochran

Flying Crane said:


> If I forced some chocolate ice cream down your throat, you would learn to like it.  Clearly you are not eating your ice cream with enough raw aggression.


You my friend may be a choco-holic!


----------



## Flying Crane

dvcochran said:


> You my friend may be a choco-holic!


Chocolate ice cream is all that matters.  It is obvious to all who have even a brain the size of a squirrel’s, that vanilla ice cream never works.


----------



## Alan Smithee

dvcochran said:


> The obvious answer; IF that is 100% true in your training situation, then there is a problem with your training situation. I said it the way I did because I have no way of knowing if this is an issue with you as a student, your instructor, or your school. I cannot go so far as to say any style is bad. ALL styles have holes that can be filled by learning other styles. It sounds like that may be where you are at.
> You have enough time in your style that you should know if that is the case.
> You have enough time in your style that you should be able to easily (easier than a new student) pick up another style to compliment your current training.
> You have enough time in your style that I would think you fee invested. This should create a least a modicum of respect.
> You have enough time in your style that you should have been taught and learned not to bash your style. Your school or instructor? Maybe. But that is something better left to yourself.
> 
> This forum is a great place to express your frustrations. It is still unclear where you are going with your post. No one is debating that there needs to be resistance training. You know this as fact.



sigh. It is true for main branch of Aikido and plenty of others as well, for EVERY school  belonging to those affiliations


----------



## Gweilo

Alan Smithee said:


> sigh. It is true for main branch of Aikido and plenty of others as well, for EVERY school  belonging to those affiliations



It really is as simple as when using a wrist lock for example, get engaged and not married, if a stronger person is fighting the lock, their mind is in that area, and nowhere else, if it on its on, if it isn't on move along, if you feel you know what's wrong with the style you train, fix it.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Gweilo said:


> It really is as simple as when using a wrist lock for example, get engaged and not married, if a stronger person is fighting the lock, their mind is in that area, and nowhere else, if it on its on, if it isn't on move along, if you feel you know what's wrong with the style you train, fix it.



 You have no idea if the technique works if the person doesn't resist and instead follows a choreographed sequence of moves. 

 I think we all know why they don't allow resistance.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Here's how it looks with resistance. Zero successful joint locks, plenty attempted. And the bald dude was way bigger...

Imagine a boxing match where no punches land


----------



## drop bear

dvcochran said:


> The obvious answer; IF that is 100% true in your training situation, then there is a problem with your training situation. I said it the way I did because I have no way of knowing if this is an issue with you as a student, your instructor, or your school. I cannot go so far as to say any style is bad. ALL styles have holes that can be filled by learning other styles. It sounds like that may be where you are at.
> You have enough time in your style that you should know if that is the case.
> You have enough time in your style that you should be able to easily (easier than a new student) pick up another style to compliment your current training.
> You have enough time in your style that I would think you fee invested. This should create a least a modicum of respect.
> You have enough time in your style that you should have been taught and learned not to bash your style. Your school or instructor? Maybe. But that is something better left to yourself.
> 
> This forum is a great place to express your frustrations. It is still unclear where you are going with your post. No one is debating that there needs to be resistance training. You know this as fact.



But if your partner resists he gets his arm broken. There is a kind of manufactured catch 22 created.


----------



## Alan Smithee

drop bear said:


> But if your partner resists he gets his arm broken. There is a kind of manufactured catch 22 created.



That's what they say as an excuse - injured, broken etc. The reality is that nothing happens. The practitioner is completely stripped, pants down, and has to think of plan B.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Aikido really is the Wushu of grappling arts. Only difference is that there's a partner.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Alan Smithee said:


> Aikidoka don't spar in the main styles.





JowGaWolf said:


> Most people don't train the strength needed to apply Wrist locks.


Agree with both on these points.

MA training requires:

1. partner training (developing).
2. sparring/wrestling (testing).
3. strength/endurance training (enhancing).
4. form/drill training (polishing).

If you only develop 1 without 2, 3, 4, your MA training is not complete.

To make joint locking work, you do need to develop grip strength.


----------



## Gweilo

I know all about compliant training partner questions, every time I write something about Systema,  these questions arise, sometimes we train with blind faith, and do not understand, until our skills are called upon, if you believe what you are training is inadequate your right, if you believe what you are training is good you are right, you need to understand the why and what you do in training, I agree you need to pressure test honestly what you know, if you do not understand your training, you will always fail, when the bigger, stronger, faster adversary appears.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Alan Smithee said:


> "grab my wrist my bro"...


Only some wrist lock require your opponent to grab on your wrist. Most of the locking skill you can apply directly on your opponent without your opponent's initial action.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Gweilo said:


> I agree you need to pressure test honestly what you know,...


You can

- write a book with 200 techniques.
- make a video with 100 techniques.
- give public demo with 50 techniques.
- teach a workshop with 25 techniques.
- fight in tournament with 10 techniques.
- fight in street with 5 techniques.

Those valuable "5 techniques" are what we all try to develop through our life time.

If you have taken down 1000 guys, the chance that you can take down the 1001 guy will be high. That's just simple statistics.

Also if you have knocked down 1000 guys, the chance that you can knock down the 1001 guy will be high. The truth is it's impossible for you to find 1000 guys that you can knock down. This is the weakness of all striking art.


----------



## Gweilo

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can
> 
> - write a book with 200 techniques.
> - make a video with 100 techniques.
> - give public demo with 50 techniques.
> - teach a workshop with 25 techniques.
> - fight in tournament with 10 techniques.
> - fight in street with 5 techniques.
> 
> Those valuable "5 techniques" are what we all try to develop through our life time.
> 
> If you have taken down 1000 guys, the chance that you can take down the 1001 guy will be high. That's just simple statistics.



Writting is no replacement for proper sparring, theory is theory, pressure testing is experimenting. I think it was Socrates said, an unchallenged life is one not worth living,


----------



## Gweilo

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can
> 
> - write a book with 200 techniques.
> - make a video with 100 techniques.
> - give public demo with 50 techniques.
> - teach a workshop with 25 techniques.
> - fight in tournament with 10 techniques.
> - fight in street with 5 techniques.
> 
> Those valuable "5 techniques" are what we all try to develop through our life time.
> 
> If you have taken down 1000 guys, the chance that you can take down the 1001 guy will be high. That's just simple statistics.
> 
> Also if you have knocked down 1000 guys, the chance that you can knock down the 1001 guy will be high. The truth is it's impossible for you to find 1000 guys that you can knock down. This is the weakness of all striking art.



I have read a lot of your posts, and I admire your passion for your art, your will to discuss in detail what you believe,  something the op could learn from, but absimple I will do A then B followed by c, looks great on paper, but in reality it's seldom possible.


----------



## Flying Crane

Alan Smithee said:


> I could resist without even being close to excerting myself, against the instructor, and my partner



What is the link to your YouTube channel?  I want to see this.

You did record it and post it on YouTube, didn’t you?


----------



## Alan Smithee

Gweilo said:


> I know all about compliant training partner questions, every time I write something about Systema,  these questions arise, sometimes we train with blind faith, and do not understand, until our skills are called upon, if you believe what you are training is inadequate your right, if you believe what you are training is good you are right, you need to understand the why and what you do in training, I agree you need to pressure test honestly what you know, if you do not understand your training, you will always fail, when the bigger, stronger, faster adversary appears.



What I don't get is that Aikidokas still believe it to be a self defense martial art, even though there is no pressure testing and it's all choreographed. Just accept it for what it is.

Wushu guys tend to be open about the fact that it's a demonstration art and not self defense. Jet Li is certainly up front about that. 

Aikidokas have more of an ego on the subject.


----------



## Gweilo

Alan Smithee said:


> Here's how it looks with resistance. Zero successful joint locks, plenty attempted. And the bald dude was way bigger...
> 
> Imagine a boxing match where no punches land



I my opinion both competitors in the video,  do not understand vectors, leverage or fulcrum points


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Gweilo said:


> I will do A then B followed by c, looks great on paper, but in reality it's seldom possible.


When you do A, you have eliminated some other possibilities. After your opponent's response and you do B, you have further eliminated some more possibilities.

I always like to associate MA strategy with man-woman relationship.

When you take your girlfriend to a

- poor neighborhood, you have eliminated the rich neighborhood.
- Dollar Tree store, you have eliminated the expensive store such as Macy's.
- ...

This is the best way to control the money in your wallet.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Gweilo said:


> I my opinion both competitors in the video,  do not understand vectors, leverage or fulcrum points



So both are mediocre yet neither of them pulled it off on the other one.

I'm not gonna argue that Aikido attracts the strongest talent pool in the world...So no argument there. However, that's what makes other arts like BJJ so effective. It works for everybody to some extent, and it does not take 30 years either.


----------



## Gweilo

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you do A, you have eliminated some other possibilities. After your opponent's response and you do B, you have further eliminated some more possibilities.
> 
> I always like to associate MA strategy with man-woman relationship.
> 
> When you take your girlfriend to a
> 
> - poor neighborhood, you have eliminated the rich neighborhood.
> - Dollar Tree store, you have eliminated the expensive store such as Macy's.
> - ...
> 
> This is the best way to control the money in your wallet.


Ok, senario, you square up to a medium build opponent, who seems to have a boxing background, you plan your stratergy, your opponent sits down, what do you do ?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Gweilo said:


> Ok, senario, you square up to a medium build opponent, who seems to have a boxing background, you plan your stratergy, your opponent sits down, what do you do ?


If my opponent tries to sit down, I'll help him to sit down more than he really wants to. I assume the ground game will start from there.


----------



## Gweilo

Alan Smithee said:


> So both are mediocre yet neither of them pulled it off on the other one.
> 
> I'm not gonna argue that Aikido attracts the strongest talent pool in the world...So no argument there. However, that's what makes other arts like BJJ so effective. It works for everybody to some extent, and it does not take 30 years either.



I have trained in Bujinkan,  Hapkido, now systema, are these the best arts, no, but I see benefits, Systema as an art is intesting and the training is useful to benefit me, it is a longer process but it will benefit me long term, will I stay with systema, I don't know, some of the training your opponent is too compliant, but the essence of the training is Imo too beneficial to disregard,  I am 50 on my next birthday, so my journey is about my self improvement,  I am not likely to fight any more,  but the desire for self improvement is still there, always looking for me, not the art.


----------



## Gweilo

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If my opponent tries to sit down, I'll help him to sit down more than he really wants to. I assume the ground game will start from there.



He he, Sounds like fun, so you Kung fu guys like to roll?


----------



## Gweilo

I am planning a holiday next year to the states, maybe if I come to texas we could have a play, I love meeting and learning from quality people


----------



## Alan Smithee

Gweilo said:


> I have trained in Bujinkan,  Hapkido, now systema, are these the best arts, no, but I see benefits, Systema as an art is intesting and the training is useful to benefit me, it is a longer process but it will benefit me long term, will I stay with systema, I don't know, some of the training your opponent is too compliant, but the essence of the training is Imo too beneficial to disregard,  I am 50 on my next birthday, so my journey is about my self improvement,  I am not likely to fight any more,  but the desire for self improvement is still there, always looking for me, not the art.



It can work as a placebo in that the Aikido practitioner exudes confidence by believing what he was taught actually works in a lethal situation, and this is projected to the aggressor.

In that sense I find that there is a place for questionable systems of self defense. But there's also the catastrophic scenario that they get tested. Even supposing that some of it work, they've never done it under pressure and resistance.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Gweilo said:


> He he, Sounds like fun, so you Kung fu guys like to roll?


Since I train head lock. Most of the time it will go down to the ground.








Gweilo said:


> I am planning a holiday next year to the states, maybe if I come to texas we could have a play,


I'll be in Texas from 12/15 - 5/15 (The rest of the year I'll be in California). If you come to Texas in that period of time, we can get together.


----------



## Gweilo

Alan Smithee said:


> It can work as a placebo in that the Aikido practitioner exudes confidence by believing what he was taught actually works in a lethal situation, and this is projected to the aggressor.
> 
> In that sense I find that there is a place for questionable systems of self defense. But there's also the catastrophic scenario that they get tested. Even supposing that some of it work, they've never done it under pressure and resistance.



I agree with pressure testing, if you are not getting it, ask your instructor, or get on the net and find other like minded people, but be very sure, you understand your training,  you understand fulcrum points, structure breaking, leverage and levers, and vectors, biomechanics, and leave the ego at home, and use the sparring to learn.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Gweilo said:


> I agree with pressure testing, if you are not getting it, ask your instructor, or get on the net and find other like minded people, but be very sure, you understand your training,  you understand fulcrum points, structure breaking, leverage and levers, and vectors, biomechanics, and leave the ego at home, and use the sparring to learn.



It's completely against their culture of training. Aikido is about cooperation and harmony. That's why I made this thread.. How do you know when you made any technical progress when it's all choreography?


----------



## Gweilo

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'll be in Texas from 12/15 - 5/15 (The rest of the year I'll be in California). If you come to Texas in that period of time, we can get together.



Sorry, to be sure 12/15 - 5/15, does this mean December? , or would it be better to schedule for california, I am very interested in your ground work, and it's always great to exchange knowledge.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Gweilo said:


> Sorry, to be sure 12/15 - 5/15, does this mean December? , or would it be better to schedule for california, I am very interested in your ground work, and it's always great to exchange knowledge.


From December to May, I'll be in Austin, Texas. The rest of the year I'll be in Pismo Beach, California.

I'm not a ground work expert. The side mount is my favor. Since most of the time a head lock throw will be ended on the ground (into a side mount position). To me, the ground game is a following up after the throw. I'll never drag my opponent down on purpose.






To remain balance after throwing is the major spirit of the Chinese wrestling.


----------



## Gweilo

Alan Smithee said:


> It's completely against their culture of training. Aikido is about cooperation and harmony. That's why I made this thread.. How do you know when you made any technical progress when it's all choreography?[/QUOTE
> In my experience The only way you will truely know, is by contact sparring, or you need your skills in a street situation, it depends on your current grade. If for example you was a 1st Dan or lower, I would say shut up, and listen, 2nd or 3rd Dan,  I would say, try another art, or see if you can find like minded others to learn, from or test your skills, but leave the ego at home, you have to know yourself, face your fears, acknowledge them and move on, in combat you are going to get hit, yes it's great to avoid conflict,  but you must beleive it's Ok to fight if you need to, what I suppose I am trying to say, if you truely know it's not you, and your training, it's time to move on.


----------



## Gweilo

Kung Fu Wang said:


> From December to May, I'll be in Austin, Texas. The rest of the year I'll be in Pismo Beach, California.
> 
> I'm not a ground work expert. The side mount is my favor. Since most of the time a head lock throw will be ended on the ground (into a side mount position). To me, the ground game is a following up after the throw. I'll never drag my opponent down on purpose.



But what happens if you are invited to the floor, or taken there, not by your choice, I found a lot of tma have an inherent fear of being on the floor.


----------



## dvcochran

drop bear said:


> But if your partner resists he gets his arm broken. There is a kind of manufactured catch 22 created.


True enough. It’s not ballet class.


----------



## Gweilo

@Alan  In my experience The only way you will truely know, is by contact sparring, or you need your skills in a street situation, it depends on your current grade. If for example you was a 1st Dan or lower, I would say shut up, and listen, 2nd or 3rd Dan, I would say, try another art, or see if you can find like minded others to learn, from or test your skills, but leave the ego at home, you have to know yourself, face your fears, acknowledge them and move on, in combat you are going to get hit, yes it's great to avoid conflict, but you must beleive it's Ok to fight if you need to, what I suppose I am trying to say, if you truely know it's not you, and your training, it's time to move on.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Gweilo said:


> But what happens if you are invited to the floor, or taken there, not by your choice, I found a lot of tma have an inherent fear of being on the floor.


This is why the ground game should be trained no matter what style that you may come from.


----------



## Gweilo

Anyhow it's seems I have been too polite, Mr Alan seems to be a troll, with the amount of questions asked on the forum.so I will say goodnight as it's 23.30 here.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Alan Smithee said:


> You have no idea if the technique works if the person doesn't resist and instead follows a choreographed sequence of moves.
> 
> I think we all know why they don't allow resistance.


Again though, you're completely ignoring all the people who have used wrist locks in an actual fight or competition. Sometimes without involving punches.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Alan Smithee said:


> I wrote "not so much". The police argument has already been addressed.


I waited until i could go back to reread the thread before replying to this one, to see where it was addressed. The only argument you seemed to make was:


Alan Smithee said:


> A police officer vs a junkie, it obviously work. Junkies aren't exactly known for their athletic prowess and keeping in shape.



Which is wrong for three reasons.
1: About half the 'junkies' I know are in better shape than the average person. And I know a lot of addicts.

2: Not everyone that gets arrested is an addict. And the repeat offenders tend to be pretty ripped-prison will do that to you.

3: A lot of police officers are not all that athletic, at least in the US.


----------



## Alan Smithee

kempodisciple said:


> Again though, you're completely ignoring all the people who have used wrist locks in an actual fight or competition. Sometimes without involving punches.



I stated the parameters for when a joint lock might be successfully applied. Anything other than that, I'll have to see to believe. I'm not impressed with anecdotes from "believers".

What I did post was real sparring competition between two Aikido black belts unable to joint lock each other for an entire match, under Aikido rules!. Another one of those tournaments had a judo-esque throw pulled off.. As expected, The throws work, the joint locks generally do not. Certainly not when both fighters are of the same strength.


----------



## Alan Smithee

kempodisciple said:


> 3: A lot of police officers are not all that athletic, at least in the US.



No but they're bigger than a junkie, who might be so spaced out from drugs he won't even react normally to the joint hold.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Alan Smithee said:


> No but they're bigger than a junkie, who might be so spaced out from drugs he won't even react normally to the joint hold.


I feel like you completely missed the first two points i posted...


----------



## Dirty Dog

Alan Smithee said:


> No but they're bigger than a junkie, who might be so spaced out from drugs he won't even react normally to the joint hold.



This ranks as one of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen posted. And that's including the days when Usenet was King.

Cops are bigger than junkies? Ridiculous. Both cops and drug abusers follow the usual bell curve for size. 
One of my students, for example, is a 5'2" 120lb female police officer. If she arrests you, I do not suggest you resist.
On the other hand, last Saturday night, I took down a 6'4" 240lb guy with a penchant for meth. Quite fit.

Drugs abusers do not spend all their time high. Most don't even spend a majority of their time high. Most drugs do not affect how one responds to pain, with PCP (which I rarely see people using any more) being the big exception.

The more you post, the less you seem to know about the subjects under discussion.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Alan Smithee said:


> The throws work, the joint locks generally do not. Certainly not when both fighters are of the same strength.


Some joint lock and throw are integrated together.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> I don't think specific strength training is necessary if you do enough resistive grappling. I've never done much grip training, but have a stronger than average grip, because of my grappling.


 That's correct if you are grappling. Strong hands and grip naturally develop that way. But I think people who get into those situations where they fail to apply against a resisting partner is because off weaker hands or because they didn't apply it correctly. 

For me i would tell someone that I will put them in a wrist lock and then I would tell them to resist with all of their their strength.  Then I would hit them to break that focus and then to quickly apply the lock.  Some of the locks that I train go with the flow of a person reloading a punch and the counters where people grab an arm.  Those are always fun and easier to apply.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> I don't think specific strength training is necessary if you do enough resistive grappling. I've never done much grip training, but have a stronger than average grip, because of my grappling.


The grappling can only help you to develop your grip strength to a certain degree. IMO, the "equipment training" is a must.


----------



## frank raud

Alan Smithee said:


> Funny since that is not how it's practiced. The defender never punches or kicks in Aikido, only the attacker. They don't even strike theoretically as the defender in Aikido.


I'm going to assume that the Yoshinkan style of Aikido is considered mainstream enough for you to be considered as "Aikido". There are multiple examples of strikes being used by the Tori (defender) in his books, such as Dynamic Aikido and The Master Course.


----------



## Alan Smithee

frank raud said:


> I'm going to assume that the Yoshinkan style of Aikido is considered mainstream enough for you to be considered as "Aikido". There are multiple examples of strikes being used by the Tori (defender) in his books, such as Dynamic Aikido and The Master Course.



All choreographed


----------



## dvcochran

@frank raud , you are wasting you time. This troll know everything there is to know about ALL martial arts. He has an incredible 4 years of experience.


----------



## frank raud

Wait, hold the presses! You're saying that pictures in a book are choreographed? This changes everything!


----------



## frank raud

Gozo Shioda was uchi deshi( live in student) of Morehei Ushiba. Most of my(limited) experience with aikido is through Kevin Blok, who was uchi deshi under Shioda. Shioda was 5'1" or so, and about 110 lbs. Kevin Blok is easily 6'3" and 250lbs. I doubt he left Canada and spent years in Japan to train Aikido if his teacher couldn't make techniques work on him. But maybe Mr. Smithee's instructor was of a higher caliber than Gozo Shioda.


----------



## Flying Crane

frank raud said:


> Gozo Shioda was uchi deshi( live in student) of Morehei Ushiba. Most of my(limited) experience with aikido is through Kevin Blok, who was uchi deshi under Shioda. Shioda was 5'1" or so, and about 110 lbs. Kevin Blok is easily 6'3" and 250lbs. I doubt he left Canada and spent years in Japan to train Aikido if his teacher couldn't make techniques work on him. But maybe Mr. Smithee's instructor was of a higher caliber than Gozo Shioda.


Maybe Mr. Smithee is a lesser caliber student than Kevin Blok.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:


> Maybe Mr. Smithee is a lesser caliber student than Kevin Blok.



Look here at post #44


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> The difference is that wrestlers also spar. Aikidoka don't spar in the main styles. They just keep on doing those various choreography ad infinitum


While that's common in Aikikai (not at all the case in Tomiki branch, which is a fairly big group).

And I'll remind you that "choreography" (drills) exist in all training approaches. 

You are correct that Aikido too often omits sparring or Judo-style randori (what's called "randori" in Aikido is a different thing). Many schools only do the drills, and even leave out some of the drills they ought to have.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Flying Crane said:


> If I forced some chocolate ice cream down your throat, you would learn to like it.  Clearly you are not eating your ice cream with enough raw aggression.


I'll keep that in mind next time I have some handy. I'll chew my way through the carton and destroy the ice cream.


----------



## Alan Smithee

gpseymour said:


> While that's common in Aikikai (not at all the case in Tomiki branch, which is a fairly big group).
> 
> And I'll remind you that "choreography" (drills) exist in all training approaches.
> 
> You are correct that Aikido too often omits sparring or Judo-style randori (what's called "randori" in Aikido is a different thing). Many schools only do the drills, and even leave out some of the drills they ought to have.



Tomiki is not a "fairly big group" outside of the UK. I'll remind you that choreography is ALL that they do in the other styles.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> sigh. It is true for main branch of Aikido and plenty of others as well, for EVERY school  belonging to those affiliations


Absolute statements are nearly always false. To make that claim, you'd need to visit literally every school in the affiliations you refer to, for many classes. Clearly, that's not the case.

Obvious troll is obvious.


----------



## Alan Smithee

frank raud said:


> Gozo Shioda was uchi deshi( live in student) of Morehei Ushiba. Most of my(limited) experience with aikido is through Kevin Blok, who was uchi deshi under Shioda. Shioda was 5'1" or so, and about 110 lbs. Kevin Blok is easily 6'3" and 250lbs. I doubt he left Canada and spent years in Japan to train Aikido if his teacher couldn't make techniques work on him. But maybe Mr. Smithee's instructor was of a higher caliber than Gozo Shioda.



I could see other reasons for why someone would move to Japan.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> You have no idea if the technique works if the person doesn't resist and instead follows a choreographed sequence of moves.
> 
> I think we all know why they don't allow resistance.


You don't seem to understand the difference between resisting a technique and general resistance. Or you're just trolling.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> That's what they say as an excuse - injured, broken etc. The reality is that nothing happens. The practitioner is completely stripped, pants down, and has to think of plan B.



LOL


----------



## Alan Smithee

gpseymour said:


> Absolute statements are nearly always false. To make that claim, you'd need to visit literally every school in the affiliations you refer to, for many classes. Clearly, that's not the case.
> 
> Obvious troll is obvious.



Why do you think they affiliate with different styles and organization if it's not uniform? Clearly that is the case. Show me an Akikai affiliation with real sparring. You don't know what you are talking about.


----------



## Alan Smithee

gpseymour said:


> You don't seem to understand the difference between resisting a technique and general resistance. Or you're just trolling.



There is no resistance, it's a predetermined grab and flip.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> What I don't get is that Aikidokas still believe it to be a self defense martial art, even though there is no pressure testing and it's all choreographed. Just accept it for what it is.
> 
> Wushu guys tend to be open about the fact that it's a demonstration art and not self defense. Jet Li is certainly up front about that.
> 
> Aikidokas have more of an ego on the subject.


I know some Aikidoka who have that thought. Some of those pressure-test what they do (to varying degrees), while others do not. I also know quite a few Aikidoka who actually don't care whether what they do is effective for fighting or not. They like the movement and challenge of the skills.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> I stated the parameters for when a joint lock might be successfully applied. Anything other than that, I'll have to see to believe. I'm not impressed with anecdotes from "believers".
> 
> What I did post was real sparring competition between two Aikido black belts unable to joint lock each other for an entire match, under Aikido rules!. Another one of those tournaments had a judo-esque throw pulled off.. As expected, The throws work, the joint locks generally do not. Certainly not when both fighters are of the same strength.


Applying a joint lock against someone who understands joint locks is a non-starter. They are smaller movements, so are easier to counter if you recognize what's coming. They're more likely to work on the ground, where some of the counters are nullified.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

kempodisciple said:


> I feel like you completely missed the first two points i posted...


Ignored. He ignored them. Because they don't fit his narrative.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The grappling can only help you to develop your grip strength to a certain degree. IMO, the "equipment training" is a must.


I'm not saying additional strength training isn't useful. But it's not necessary (at least for some people) for a baseline of grip strength.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Dirty Dog said:


> One of my students, for example, is a 5'2" 120lb female police officer. If she arrests you, I do not suggest you resist.



Of course, she's your student!


----------



## Alan Smithee

Dirty Dog said:


> Drugs abusers do not spend all their time high. Most don't even spend a majority of their time high. Most drugs do not affect how one responds to pain, with PCP (which I rarely see people using any more) being the big exception.
> 
> The more you post, the less you seem to know about the subjects under discussion.



The initial grab is not painful.


----------



## frank raud

Alan Smithee said:


> I could see other reasons for why someone would move to Japan.


Yes, you could. But " other reasons" is not why Kevin Blok went to be a live in student.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> Tomiki is not a "fairly big group" outside of the UK. I'll remind you that choreography is ALL that they do in the other styles.


Obvious troll statement.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> Why do you think they affiliate with different styles and organization if it's not uniform? Clearly that is the case. Show me an Akikai affiliation with real sparring. You don't know what you are talking about.


Clearly, you've never been part of an organization of any size. Uniformity occurs at a fairly high level. What happens in a school is pretty variable. That has been my experience with literally every art I've come in contact with.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> There is no resistance, it's a predetermined grab and flip.


Obvious troll statement.


----------



## Bruce7

Alan Smithee said:


> How is that even possible? You never apply techniques with resistance from your partner. It's all choreographed.


Do advanced students spar? 
My teachers sparred with each other and there was no choreographing. They were trying to best one another.
My teachers enjoyed sparing with me after class to home their skills against striking arts.
I guess when you have perfected your art to a certain level,  you enjoy test your skill against a different art to further perfect your art.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Bruce7 said:


> Do advanced students spar?
> My teachers sparred with each other and there was no choreographing. They were trying to best one another.
> My teachers enjoyed sparing with me after class to home their skills against striking arts.
> I guess when you have perfected your art to a certain level,  you enjoy test your skill against a different art to further perfect your art.



Since they apparently indoctrinate their students into believing that you have to follow along or else your arm breaks or is injured, there is a built in protection against any questioning or testing of any kind. 

So I ask again, under those circumstances, how could you possible hone your grappling technique?


----------



## Alan Smithee

gpseymour said:


> Obvious troll statement.



If you think Aikido is trolling then yes.


----------



## Bruce7

Alan Smithee said:


> Since they apparently indoctrinate their students into believing that you have to follow along or else your arm breaks or is injured, there is a built in protection against any questioning or testing of any kind.
> 
> So I ask again, under those circumstances, how could you possible hone your grappling technique?



I think I understand your point.
I hope you don't take this as rude, but maybe you should find a different teacher.
I was only taught in the begin not to resist so the other student could learn the technique.
As the other student progress, you would make it hard for him to get a lock and we were taught counter moves to a the lock.
If I was on the ground in a solid lock, I would not resist. Yes, I would have to give in order not to be damaged.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Alan Smithee said:


> You never apply techniques with resistance from your partner. It's all choreographed.


1. During the "skill development" stage, you are not suppose to resist. This is true for all MA system.
2. Your partner only resists during the "counter training" stage,
3. or the "combo training" stage.
4. You then go into "testing" stage.

Whether Aikido training has all 4 stages, that's different issue.

Let's take the "hip throw" for example.

1. "skill development" stage.






2. "counter training" stage,






3. "combo training" stage.






4. "testing" stage (Hip throw defense has been applied at 0.15. Hip throw offense has been applied at 0.19).


----------



## drop bear

By the way from someone who does go for dangerous locks. I slow them down in sparring so that if someone does resist in a way I think they are going to break something I can let it go and transition to something else.

The training that requires your uke to just collapse isn't very productive for anyone to be honest.

So I can see what OP is kind of trying to get at. As it is a pretty common phenomenon in martial arts.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

drop bear said:


> if someone does resist in a way ...


Not sure if Aikido has anything like this. Does anybody know?

How can you have any fun if you train a throwing art and you don't go through this? It doesn't matter if you have repeated your partner training drill over 10,000 times. If you can't execute your technique while your opponent resists fully, you still don't have that technique.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> I slow them down in sparring so that if someone does resist in a way I think they are going to break something I can let it go and transition to something else.


This statement says it all.. could have saved 13 pages of explaining lol.   People who know that joint locks work understand this.  That fear that your sparring partner may move in the wrong way and break their own joint because of it.  I remember when I would  train teen how to use joint locks and I would demo on them so they could experience it.  An there's always that one teen that wants to go against the grain where if I don't release the lock then the kid would sure hurt himself.  And it would always end the same way with the kids saying.  "It doesn't work" and me replying to the kid that he was about to dislocate his own shoulder trying to counter the wrong way.

It's sort of like how some people aren't smart enough to tap out in BJJ so if you don't let go of certain locks the idiot will surly break their own arm.

The truth about a lot of joint locks is that it's the resistance that will F you up.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

JowGaWolf said:


> The truth about a lot of joint locks is that it's the resistance that will F you up.


My wife had to go to EM because she refused to tap out in a ground game arm bar.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Alan Smithee said:


> Of course, she's your student!



Well, no. I don't recommend resisting if she arrests you because I've treated people in the ED who DID resist her.



Alan Smithee said:


> The initial grab is not painful.



Nope. It's not painful when I grab you. It IS painful when I twist the joint.
Or are you saying that hundreds of people over the last 35 years chose to comply even though it didn't hurt?


----------



## JowGaWolf

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My wife had to go to EM because she refused to tap out in a ground game arm bar.


Sorry to hear she let it go that far.  Unfortunately there's no gradual "give way" to a joint failing or bone breaking..  There's the resistance and then, the snap.  Most aren't going to know what it feels like right before before the bone or joint fails.  Best example of this is when arm wrestlers break their arms.  Everything looks fine.... then snap.  something breaks.

My personal thought it that chokes and joint locks aren't submission techniques.  Chokes are made to incapacitate and joint locks are made to destroy.  Tapping out just signals to your opponent that one of the two is about to happen,  If people think of it as submission then they ignore this fact and it becomes more of an ego thing.  "At least I didn't give in" type drive. 

Good video on joint locks.  He talks about resisting vs flowing.  This might be useful to the OP in gaining a better understanding of why people "comply" with a joint lock.   I know when police officers often break arms because people resist.  Comply and put your hands behind your back vs resisting


----------



## Alan Smithee

Dirty Dog said:


> Nope. It's not painful when I grab you. It IS painful when I twist the joint.
> Or are you saying that hundreds of people over the last 35 years chose to comply even though it didn't hurt?



For cryin out loud, there was a 3rd Dan Aikido black belt instructor with his own dojo who tried a joint twist in a BJJ contest while standing up and nothing happened, the dude just looked at him funny. It was hilarious to see. It did not cause anything


----------



## Dirty Dog

Alan Smithee said:


> For cryin out loud, there was a 3rd Dan Aikido black belt instructor with his own dojo who tried a joint twist in a BJJ contest while standing up and nothing happened, the dude just looked at him funny. It was hilarious to see. It did not cause anything



So what? Nothing is 100%. The fact remains that I have used these techniques reliably for many years, in literally hundred on confrontations, with excellent success.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Dirty Dog said:


> So what? Nothing is 100%. The fact remains that I have used these techniques reliably for many years, in literally hundred on confrontations, with excellent success.



Oh common. Just admit you used it on hillbillies who believe the same nonsense you do.


----------



## Martial D

If you devote a good portion of your life to something that turns out in the end to be bullcrap, you are unlikely to ever admit it, even to yourself.

This is exponentially more true if your paycheck depends on it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> By the way from someone who does go for dangerous locks. I slow them down in sparring so that if someone does resist in a way I think they are going to break something I can let it go and transition to something else.
> 
> The training that requires your uke to just collapse isn't very productive for anyone to be honest.
> 
> So I can see what OP is kind of trying to get at. As it is a pretty common phenomenon in martial arts.


Yeah, this is where I take issue with how much of this is done in much of Aikido. I think it's a useful practice so you can practice the movement at full speed (I see it as analogous to a lightweight "heavy" bag for striking). But if it's used too much (especially if it's the ONLY drill approach used), you get a false sense of what will work. At the very least, a skilled partner should be able to say, "I took that fall just in case, but it didn't feel like you really had the lock." Not ideal, but at least better than never getting any feedback. I favor beginners taking the escape a bit early, and more advanced folks waiting to feel out the technique's effect first.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Not sure if Aikido has anything like this. Does anybody know?
> 
> How can you have any fun if you train a throwing art and you don't go through this? It doesn't matter if you have repeated your partner training drill over 10,000 times. If you can't execute your technique while your opponent resists fully, you still don't have that technique.


I think asking if "Aikido" has something is problematic. Some schools will have full resistance, some won't.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My wife had to go to EM because she refused to tap out in a ground game arm bar.


I had a training partner who broke a hand when he didn't tap out on a wrist lock (another mid-range student applying it). Same lock had the same effect when one of my instructors was doing some police training and one of the cadets decided to suddenly resist and ignore the pain.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> For cryin out loud, there was a 3rd Dan Aikido black belt instructor with his own dojo who tried a joint twist in a BJJ contest while standing up and nothing happened, the dude just looked at him funny. It was hilarious to see. It did not cause anything


Okay, so a guy tried a technique and it didn't work. Apparently, either he chose the wrong technique, didn't get the set-up, or the other guy knew how to counter. What's your point?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> If you devote a good portion of your life to something that turns out in the end to be bullcrap, you are unlikely to ever admit it, even to yourself.
> 
> This is exponentially more true if your paycheck depends on it.


True enough. That cognitive resistance is powerful. At the same time, some folks believe things don't work in spite of the evidence. Or they pretend to, anyway.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Alan Smithee said:


> Oh common. Just admit you used it on hillbillies who believe the same nonsense you do.


Acyually he uses it on people who have no idea he reains anything, just fyi.


----------



## Gweilo

Alan Smithee said:


> Oh common. Just admit you used it on hillbillies who believe the same nonsense you do.



They do work on more than just hillbillies, one demonstration, and one experience you base this knowledge upon, are you sure you wasn't too busy chatting, so you missed the point?
In my 30 something years of training, joint manipulation, structure breaking etc has been a very very useful tool, even in a real fight situation, compliant training partners has been explained in a very articulate post, if you don't like locks etc, don't use them, but you still haven't answered the question about your ma experience,  you seem to think you know a lot about many arts, you don't like Aikido, or locks and structure breaking, so what do you beleive is an adequate alternative.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> Okay, so a guy tried a technique and it didn't work. Apparently, either he chose the wrong technique, didn't get the set-up, or the other guy knew how to counter. What's your point?


The logic is that if 10 people can't do it, then it must be impossible.  Instead of focusing on how it works people often tend to focus on how things don't work.

There are people who don't show up at demos and tournaments that rely on a joint lock to work.  When we hear about the failure of a martial arts techniques it's always in the context of someone at a demo or exhibition.  Find someone who relies on functional joint locks, we'll get a different image of joint locks and the applications of it.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, this is where I take issue with how much of this is done in much of Aikido. I think it's a useful practice so you can practice the movement at full speed (I see it as analogous to a lightweight "heavy" bag for striking). But if it's used too much (especially if it's the ONLY drill approach used), you get a false sense of what will work. At the very least, a skilled partner should be able to say, "I took that fall just in case, but it didn't feel like you really had the lock." Not ideal, but at least better than never getting any feedback. I favor beginners taking the escape a bit early, and more advanced folks waiting to feel out the technique's effect first.



The thing is you do kind of have to have a backup if your slick move fails anyway. So it is not the end of the world if your slower than 100% wrist lock doesn't take. 

And if you have everything else on point. E.g. the Russian wrist snap. You don't need the lock. 

And you do kind of need these elements to be on point because if you don't they will just clench their fist and you won't get that wristlock. 

Which is what OP was basically describing.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> The logic is that if 10 people can't do it, then it must be impossible.  Instead of focusing on how it works people often tend to focus on how things don't work.
> 
> There are people who don't show up at demos and tournaments that rely on a joint lock to work.  When we hear about the failure of a martial arts techniques it's always in the context of someone at a demo or exhibition.  Find someone who relies on functional joint locks, we'll get a different image of joint locks and the applications of it.




You would want moves to work consistently and be verifiable. Especially in martial arts where you really should assume people are lying to you.

Because unfortunately enough people are that it is just the general state of play.






Sorry Annie but you are being lied to.


----------



## Gweilo

Been going through some Hapkido vids,  this is not the one I was looking for, but it does talk about a situation when you come across a strong person and wrist locks, I will keep looking for the one I was hoping to find, and will post it when I find, it may shed a bit of light to the op.


----------



## drop bear

drop bear said:


> You would want moves to work consistently and be verifiable. Especially in martial arts where you really should assume people are lying to you.
> 
> Because unfortunately enough people are that it is just the general state of play.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Annie but you are being lied to.



By the way of course using flying cranes imaginary cat fallacy the were of course super awesome and realistic up to that point. We just didn't see that on YouTube.


----------



## drop bear

Gweilo said:


> Been going through some Hapkido vids,  this is not the one I was looking for, but it does talk about a situation when you come across a strong person and wrist locks, I will keep looking for the one I was hoping to find, and will post it when I find, it may shed a bit of light to the op.



When you have your arm bent but your student has a straight arm and amazing the technique works.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Alan Smithee said:


> Oh common. Just admit you used it on hillbillies who believe the same nonsense you do.


Do you think this move can work most of the time if not all the time?

The logic is simple. You use the strong part of your body (arm) to deal with the weak part of your opponent's body (1 finger).


----------



## Alan Smithee

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you think this move can work most of the time if not all the time?
> 
> The logic is simple. You use the strong part of your body (arm) to deal with the weak part of your opponent's body (1 finger).



If your opponent just stands there like a zoombie looking at you, yes.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> You would want moves to work consistently and be verifiable. Especially in martial arts where you really should assume people are lying to you.
> 
> Because unfortunately enough people are that it is just the general state of play.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Annie but you are being lied to.


I've seen all of her videos and I'm just amazed at what she gets away with and how people buy into that stuff.   I can only assume that people who take her classes have never been in a real fight either as a kid or an adult.  

I'm not sure in what scenario I would find myself pinned against the wall facing the wall, unless I'm getting arrested.  I run attack scenarios and I've yet been able to pin any of the students against the wall like that.  Seems like something more out of the movies. Maybe someone can shed some light on that.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Alan Smithee said:


> If your opponent just stands there like a zoombie looking at you, yes.


Actually it's the other way around. You stand there like a zombie. When your opponent pushes on your chest, he will give that opportunity to you.

Opportunity can only be given to those who has prepared.


----------



## Martial D

JowGaWolf said:


> The logic is that if 10 people can't do it, then it must be impossible.  Instead of focusing on how it works people often tend to focus on how things don't work.



Not so. At least not in my case.

In my case it's more like this.

I have trained with 2 shodan level Aikidoka, and neither one of them could pull off any standing locks on anyone, not even the new guys.

There is hundreds of hours of sparring footage, in which it doesn't work.

There are thousands and thousands of recorded MMA and grappling matches in which such things never take place.

And in fact, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of this sort of thing working in the wild whatsoever.

That is more than enough to convict in any court of law.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Martial D said:


> I have trained with 2 shodan level Aikidoka, and neither one of them could pull off any standing locks on anyone, not even the new guys.


Not even a finger lock as shown in this clip?






From a hand shake position, this wrist lock should work quite easily. The moment that you start to shake your opponent's hand, it's difficult for him to pull that hand back.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

When your technique doesn't work on your opponent, should you blame on your technique, or should you blame on yourself?

To make any technique work, you will need to satisfy the following:

1. opportunity
2. timing
3. angle
4. force
5. balance

For example,

- If the opportunity is not there, nothing will happen.
- Even if the opportunity is there, if you don't have good timing, that opportunity will just pass away.
- Same as wrong angle, weak force, and poor balance.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Actually it's the other way around. You stand there like a zombie. When your opponent pushes on your chest, he will give that opportunity to you.


Typically any situation where the attacker put his or her hands on you for pushing, holding back, etc. is an opportunity to grab fingers. Probably a one hand choke against the wall or a one hand choke to set up a choke slam.  Then there's the general shoving that may happen in a conflict.

Then you have these - Shirt grabs


----------



## Martial D

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When your technique doesn't work on your opponent, should you blame on your technique, or should you blame on yourself?
> 
> To make any technique work, you will need to satisfy the following:
> 
> 1. opportunity
> 2. timing
> 3. angle
> 4. force
> 5. balance
> 
> For example,
> 
> - If the opportunity is not there, nothing will happen.
> - Even if the opportunity is there, if you don't have good timing, your technique still will not work.
> - Same as wrong angle, weak force, and poor balance.


Just because some dude in a GI invents something that looks cool on a guy that plays along, then names it, doesn't magically mAke it effective 'if only it were done right'

A lot of TMA stuff is straight fantasy roleplaying.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> Not so. At least not in my case.
> 
> In my case it's more like this.
> 
> I have trained with 2 shodan level Aikidoka, and neither one of them could pull off any standing locks on anyone, not even the new guys.
> 
> There is hundreds of hours of sparring footage, in which it doesn't work.
> 
> There are thousands and thousands of recorded MMA and grappling matches in which such things never take place.
> 
> And in fact, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of this sort of thing working in the wild whatsoever.
> 
> That is more than enough to convict in any court of law.


The only thing I can say is that maybe someone who knows how to apply it will post video on Youtube.  My perspective comes from my own experience of what I see vs what may be out there.  How many people have we seen spar and actually use Jow Ga techniques?  So when it comes to Aikido, I'm thinking the same thing.  There may be others out there who just haven't posted a video of them sparring.

I like this one. But unfortunately I don't know enough about Aikido to know if that's what he was doing.





if he's actually using it Aikido (in the video above, then that video gives a much different perspective than the video below.





The only thing I'm sure about is that Joint locks works, and how it's applied is going to determine reliability.  I don't think it's a bunch of made up Joint locks and arm twists.   I also believe that it's going to be rare to find someone passionate enough to actually learn how to be functional with the system.  Most people rather mix and match systems, which is nothing wrong with doing that. It's just that doing so, may cause a person to give up on the applications of the system instead of trying to figure it out.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Martial D said:


> A lot of TMA stuff is straight fantasy roleplaying.


If a technique has gone through the developing stage, and also has gone through the testing stage, that technique should work. If one has tried his technique over 10,000 times on the mat and it still doesn't work, he should have modified that technique to make it work long time ago.

Any defect in Window 1 should be fixed in Window 10 already.


----------



## JowGaWolf

I heard the phrase "I do Aikido" so I guess that's in his tool box.  You'll hear him say it around the 5:45 mark


----------



## JowGaWolf

Here he explains what he's doing 
REAL Steven Seagal ish Aikido vs MMA BJJ Fighters TMA Systema in Invisible Jiu-jitsu Fight


----------



## jks9199

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful.  For those who missed the day in kindergarden that discussed name-calling... It's not nice.  Stop it.  

jks9199
MT Administrator


----------



## Tony Dismukes

JowGaWolf said:


> like this one. But unfortunately I don't know enough about Aikido to know if that's what he was doing.
> 
> 
> if he's actually using it Aikido (in the video above, then that video gives a much different perspective than the video below.


That’s Dan “the Wolfman” Theodore, a BJJ black belt who is on a bit of a crusade to show that certain traditional techniques like the standing wrist locks from Aikido can work. He will be the first to tell you that in order to make them work you need solid grappling/wrestling skills and plenty of live sparring experience.


----------



## drop bear

Tony Dismukes said:


> That’s Dan “the Wolfman” Theodore, a BJJ black belt who is on a bit of a crusade to show that certain traditional techniques like the standing wrist locks from Aikido can work. He will be the first to tell you that in order to make them work you need solid grappling/wrestling skills and plenty of live sparring experience.



And I think that conceptually the locks trained from a bjj wrestling base are almost completely different. 

Different timing different set ups and different technique.


----------



## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> The only thing I can say is that maybe someone who knows how to apply it will post video on Youtube.  My perspective comes from my own experience of what I see vs what may be out there.  How many people have we seen spar and actually use Jow Ga techniques?  So when it comes to Aikido, I'm thinking the same thing.  There may be others out there who just haven't posted a video of them sparring.
> 
> I like this one. But unfortunately I don't know enough about Aikido to know if that's what he was doing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if he's actually using it Aikido (in the video above, then that video gives a much different perspective than the video below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing I'm sure about is that Joint locks works, and how it's applied is going to determine reliability.  I don't think it's a bunch of made up Joint locks and arm twists.   I also believe that it's going to be rare to find someone passionate enough to actually learn how to be functional with the system.  Most people rather mix and match systems, which is nothing wrong with doing that. It's just that doing so, may cause a person to give up on the applications of the system instead of trying to figure it out.



All due respect to Wolfman, but every video I see him in, he's using those "Aikido" techniques on people much smaller and less experienced than him.

I find the second video much more interesting, because you had two people of about equal size and experience, with an Aikidoka instructor who could do next to nothing against a trained MMA fighter.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tony Dismukes said:


> That’s Dan “the Wolfman” Theodore, a BJJ black belt who is on a bit of a crusade to show that certain traditional techniques like the standing wrist locks from Aikido can work. He will be the first to tell you that in order to make them work you need solid grappling/wrestling skills and plenty of live sparring experience.


 I could tell he has a passion for it. He enjoys the journey of learning and understanding the techniques he uses.  It's people like him that TMA's need more of.  Someone who is willing to go beyond what is just taught.  Someone who has the passion to understand something through actually trying to use it and understand it.  He wouldn't be as good as he is had he just bought into the talk that Aikido is useless and written it off.



drop bear said:


> Different timing different set ups and different technique.


 I don't know if Aikido practitioners have the same problem that I had with Kung Fu, but for me TMA is alway taught from a defense perspective where "attacker is always attacking first".  For me this hyper defensive focus made it really difficult for me to learn Jow Ga.  It wasn't until I started to train from an offensive perspective that things began to click.  I didn't see a lot of what I see now because I was always trying to counter and react.. It's easier for me to do kung fu when my opponent reacts to me.  In general, I think it's easier to know my opponent will react to me than for me to figure out what  he's going to do based on  how I react to him.  

Aikido is always shown as someone attacking the practitioner and in general I think that's just the incorrect mindset for trying to be successful with  TMA in general. I think that what you are seeing is this perspective change which will give the techniques a different look based on how we usually see it in demos


----------



## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


> All due respect to Wolfman, but every video I see him in, he's using those "Aikido" techniques on people much smaller and less experienced than him.


 Here's my thinking about this.  If I'm training to beat someone with Jow Ga kung fu then my experience always needs to be more than who I'm fighting.  It doesn't mean that who I'm sparring with  sucks, it just means that I should always be training to be more experienced than who I may fight.  

I'm not sure why I would get into a fight with someone who has more experience than me and  still think I can win.  I may do it for sparring because I can learn, but my training and purpose should always be. "*To be better and more experienced than my opponent.*"   If you and I were to set up a sparring match. I would train so that this statement would be true when we meet.  Then when someone says.  "*well you had more experience than the other person*".  I'll just smile and reply.  "*Yes I do. The other person should have trained harder*."  If I did BJJ competitively without training BJJ then that statement would be true for my opponent, but my lower skills doesn't invalidate his better skills.

Size difference.  I don't know how many times I've seen BJJ practitioners take down people who are bigger and no one ever complains about the size difference there.
Then you have videos like this.  Where one person is clearly larger.





Same thing here.  Against a bigger person You can say that the Bigger person did well because he was bigger, but he still got tossed.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

JowGaWolf said:


> Aikido is always shown as someone attacking the practitioner and in general I think that's just the incorrect mindset for trying to be successful with  TMA in general.


Agree with you 100% there. If you attack me. I then respond to your attack. It's very easy for me to fall into your trap. This can be a weakness for all SD type of training.

My training focus on I attack my opponent first when he has boxing guard. So the 1st thing that I need is to pull his boxing guard apart.

If my opponent attacks me first, I prefer to use my kick to control the distance. I may jump back if I need to. I then jump back in and attack. IMO, this is the only way that I can make the fight "simple".

For example, when I drag my opponent's leading arm and run in circle, if he is not familiar with that game, that will be my advantage.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Alan Smithee said:


> Oh common. Just admit you used it on hillbillies who believe the same nonsense you do.



Since the definition of "hillbilly" is 'an unsophisticated mountain person from the Appalachians' that's not possible. I live in the wrong part of the country. 
In fact, the people I've used these techniques on run the gamut from homeless to wealthy. Uneducated to extremely well educated. 
The simple fact is that these techniques do work. Not 100% of the time, because nothing is 100%. But claiming they don't work at all is just silly.


----------



## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> Here's my thinking about this.  If I'm training to beat someone with Jow Ga kung fu then my experience always needs to be more than who I'm fighting.  It doesn't mean that who I'm sparring with  sucks, it just means that I should always be training to be more experienced than who I may fight.
> 
> I'm not sure why I would get into a fight with someone who has more experience than me and  still think I can win.  I may do it for sparring because I can learn, but my training and purpose should always be. "*To be better and more experienced than my opponent.*"   If you and I were to set up a sparring match. I would train so that this statement would be true when we meet.  Then when someone says.  "*well you had more experience than the other person*".  I'll just smile and reply.  "*Yes I do. The other person should have trained harder*."  If I did BJJ competitively without training BJJ then that statement would be true for my opponent, but my lower skills doesn't invalidate his better skills.
> 
> Size difference.  I don't know how many times I've seen BJJ practitioners take down people who are bigger and no one ever complains about the size difference there.
> Then you have videos like this.  Where one person is clearly larger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same thing here.  Against a bigger person You can say that the Bigger person did well because he was bigger, but he still got tossed.



My point is that if your goal is to show me that those Aikido techniques are effective, then I need to see it being used on someone that you don't outweigh by almost 100 lbs, and/or is your student or training dummy. I tend to expect a Bjj blackbelt to overwhelm a Bjj Blue belt, especially when that Bjj black belt has a size advantage. When you have a size and skill advantage to that extent, then your message is lost because someone with that advantage can make anything look dominant or effective. Show me a skinny, unassuming guy tossing around big guys like Steven Segal does, then I'll be interested.

When Royce Gracie won the UFC it sent shockwaves through the MA community mainly because Gracie was smaller than the majority of people he fought, yet he still dominated them through sheer skill. If Gracie was a big hulking guy who imposed his will on other fighters, the impact wouldn't have been so great.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


> My point is that if your goal is to show me that those Aikido techniques are effective, then I need to see it being used on someone that you don't outweigh by almost 100 lbs


Always moving the goal post.  People show how things work and then it's move the goal post..  

Royce Won a lot of his fights because he was more skilled at the type of grappling he was doing.He also has a strong grip that's not easily broken.  People were not used to nor did they know how to deal with what he was doing. This goes back to what I was saying about having more experience.  Royce made other's play his game instead of him trying to beat others at their own game.  This goes back to what Wang and I were talking about Attacking vs Reacting.   Attacking forces your opponent to play your game, Reacting means you are always playing someone else's game.  I'm also pretty sure that Royce Gracie didn't have a weak grip which goes back to what  Wang, Tony, GPSeymourand and I were saying about training grip strength.  TMA grip strength training should give one an idea of what type of grip strength is needed. 

You are the first person I've ever heard that makes a skinny person the  point of proof instead of a well trained person being the point of proof.  A skinny person without grip strength and technique will fail because he or she is skinny without out strength and technique.

As far as Gracie being remarkable, he brought something into fighting that most people didn't know what to do with.  Most people were unfamiliar with BJJ.  Now that's changed and it's not as easy to pull off Royce Gracie dominance like he did back then.  Striking, countering takedowns, and escaping BJJ techniques has improved compared to when Royce was dominating.


----------



## Gweilo

drop bear said:


> When you have your arm bent but your student has a straight arm and amazing the technique works.


Bent arm, straight arm, just gives another option, straight arm, is suceptable to arm bar or a lever for more control, bent arm open to a reversal, or secondry move. In the video at the point he had control of the wrist, with the elbow bent, it would not have been my choice to try to apply pressure downwards, Personally I would have lifted the elbow upwards, and rammed a knee into the ribs, or lifted the elbow, taken the hand anti clockwise back under the arm, whilst moving myself anti clockwise, and remember that was a training vid in which the instructor paused to explain, in a SD situation, he would not have stopped moving, until his opponent was fully controlled/subdued or rolling around the floor calling for a medic.


----------



## drop bear

Gweilo said:


> Bent arm, straight arm, just gives another option, straight arm, is suceptable to arm bar or a lever for more control, bent arm open to a reversal, or secondry move. In the video at the point he had control of the wrist, with the elbow bent, it would not have been my choice to try to apply pressure downwards, Personally I would have lifted the elbow upwards, and rammed a knee into the ribs, or lifted the elbow, taken the hand anti clockwise back under the arm, whilst moving myself anti clockwise, and remember that was a training vid in which the instructor paused to explain, in a SD situation, he would not have stopped moving, until his opponent was fully controlled/subdued or rolling around the floor calling for a medic.



No. If that arm is locked with good posture you are not moving it by grabbing the wrist. Or grabbing the elbow or whatever. 

Which I assume was the point of ducking down then attacking the wrist. Because it opens the arm up a bit.

But from there it is a dog fight to break that position.

Otherwise saying oh well in a fight I am going to escalate doesn't  exactly cut it either as a striking match from there is also a dog fight

You might dish out shots. But you are going to eat shots as well. 

.


----------



## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> Always moving the goal post.  People show how things work and then it's move the goal post..



Uh, I'm not moving the goalpost. What I'm saying is that it's easy to make things work when you have a size and skill advantage over your partner. Such is the case with Wolfman in his videos.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> My point is that if your goal is to show me that those Aikido techniques are effective, then I need to see it being used on someone that you don't outweigh by almost 100 lbs, and/or is your student or training dummy. I tend to expect a Bjj blackbelt to overwhelm a Bjj Blue belt, especially when that Bjj black belt has a size advantage. When you have a size and skill advantage to that extent, then your message is lost because someone with that advantage can make anything look dominant or effective. Show me a skinny, unassuming guy tossing around big guys like Steven Segal does, then I'll be interested.
> 
> When Royce Gracie won the UFC it sent shockwaves through the MA community mainly because Gracie was smaller than the majority of people he fought, yet he still dominated them through sheer skill. If Gracie was a big hulking guy who imposed his will on other fighters, the impact wouldn't have been so great.



Some of their Vale Tudo strategies are questionable on the streets though. They have a superior art for the mat but on  concrete they would get slammed to oblivion. They even got slammed those fights stuck in guards but the effect wasn't as bad since it was in a sporting arena floor.


----------



## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> Some of their Vale Tudo strategies are questionable on the streets though. They have a superior art for the mat but on  concrete they would get slammed to oblivion. They even got slammed those fights stuck in guards but the effect wasn't as bad since it was in a sporting arena floor.



What "strategies" are you talking about?

If you're getting slammed while in Guard you've messed up a long time ago. You should never retain Guard if you're off the ground.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> What "strategies" are you talking about?
> 
> 
> If you're getting slammed while in Guard you've messed up a long time ago. You should never retain Guard if you're off the ground.



Pulling guard and getting slammed, as Renzo did, and Rickson got slammed in the guard as well


----------



## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> Pulling guard and getting slammed, as Renzo did, and Rickson got slammed in the guard as well



Yeah in the ring. In self-defense we're taught not to retain the guard if your opponent regains their posture (standing up, or lifting you up in the air). There are plenty of easy and effective sweeps to pull off from that position instead of attempting to retain your guard.


----------



## jobo

Hanzou said:


> Uh, I'm not moving the goalpost. What I'm saying is that it's easy to make things work when you have a size and skill advantage over your partner. Such is the case with Wolfman in his videos.


 BUT THAT'S JUST tautology, Nothing works at all if you don't have a physical and or skill advantage and always work best if you have both.

which is why people should train both skill and fitness to give them an advantage


----------



## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> Yeah in the ring. In self-defense we're taught not to retain the guard if your opponent regains their posture (standing up, or lifting you up in the air). There are plenty of easy and effective sweeps to pull off from that position instead of attempting to retain your guard.



Against high level wrestlers doesn't matter what you do. Imagine if kimura had lost by submission on the ground against Helio despite kimura throwing him around at will on mats before that, would that have proved GJJ superiority?


----------



## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> Against high level wrestlers doesn't matter what you do. Imagine if kimura had lost by submission on the ground against Helio despite kimura throwing him around at will on mats before that, would that have proved GJJ superiority?


yes against high level wrestlers it doesn't matter what you do, but fortunately high level wrestlers tend to fight other high level wrestlers so it doesn't come up very often as an issue


----------



## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> yes against high level wrestlers it doesn't matter what you do, but fortunately high level wrestlers tend to fight other high level wrestlers so it doesn't come up very often as an issue



All it takes is a good high school or college wrestler. They will not be able to sweep him.


----------



## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> All it takes is a good high school or college wrestler. They will not be able to sweep him.


who wont ? i wont, you wont, but who is the THEY you are referring to ?

id put my money on one of the graces against a high school wrestler ?

So WHO wont be able to sweep a high school wrestler ?


----------



## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> who wont ? i wont, you wont, but who is the THEY you are referring to ?
> 
> id put my money on one of the graces against a high school wrestler ?



Please follow the discussion if you want to participate. A BJJ expert of any kind will not be able to sweep an equally skilled wrestler, and pulling guard which is very effective on the mat, will likely lead to disaster in a real fight on concrete. Hence they are out of options


----------



## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> Please follow the discussion if you want to participate. A BJJ expert of any kind will not be able to sweep an equally skilled wrestler, and pulling guard which is very effective on the mat, will likely lead to disaster in a real fight on concrete. Hence they are out of options


 But you said high school wrestler ?

Now your saying equally skilled, No a BBJ guy will not be able to sweep an equally skilled grapplers, either a wrestler or another BJJ guy

That just obvious, A boxer cant beat an equally skilled boxer and a wight lifter cant out lift someone who is equally strong

I could go on, But equal skill tends to end in a draw or at least a subjective points decision


----------



## Martial D

JowGaWolf said:


> The only thing I can say is that maybe someone who knows how to apply it will post video on Youtube.  My perspective comes from my own experience of what I see vs what may be out there.  How many people have we seen spar and actually use Jow Ga techniques?  So when it comes to Aikido, I'm thinking the same thing.  There may be others out there who just haven't posted a video of them sparring.
> 
> I like this one. But unfortunately I don't know enough about Aikido to know if that's what he was doing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if he's actually using it Aikido (in the video above, then that video gives a much different perspective than the video below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing I'm sure about is that Joint locks works, and how it's applied is going to determine reliability.  I don't think it's a bunch of made up Joint locks and arm twists.   I also believe that it's going to be rare to find someone passionate enough to actually learn how to be functional with the system.  Most people rather mix and match systems, which is nothing wrong with doing that. It's just that doing so, may cause a person to give up on the applications of the system instead of trying to figure it out.


Frankly, the excuse that 'sure, it seems like it doesn't work at all based on 100% of the evidence available BUT surely their are hidden masters lurking in the darkness laughing at us from their secret dojos somewhere' is well past it's due date.


----------



## Martial D

Alan Smithee said:


> Please follow the discussion if you want to participate. A BJJ expert of any kind will not be able to sweep an equally skilled wrestler, and pulling guard which is very effective on the mat, will likely lead to disaster in a real fight on concrete. Hence they are out of options



This tells me you have not trained even a day of BJJ.


----------



## Dirty Dog

jobo said:


> That just obvious, A boxer cant beat an equally skilled boxer and a wight lifter cant out lift someone who is equally strong



Well..... you're assuming none of these people ever make a mistake. Which is simply not true. If those two equally skilled people go at it long enough, it's a virtual certainty that one of them will eventually make a mistake. And then BOOM.
You cannot really predict which of two equally skilled opponents will make that mistake, but it's pretty much inevitable that one will, eventually.
I agree with the point you're making (although I doubt young Alan will grasp it), but it's important to remember that "equal skill" doesn't equal "both totally perfect".


----------



## jobo

Martial D said:


> Frankly, the excuse that 'sure, it seems like it doesn't work at all based on 100% of the evidence available BUT surely their are hidden masters lurking in the darkness laughing at us from their secret dojos somewhere' is well past it's due date.


you dont think it will work at all ever under any circumstances ?


----------



## Alan Smithee

Martial D said:


> This tells me you have not trained even a day of BJJ.



Do you actually have an argument?


----------



## jobo

Dirty Dog said:


> Well..... you're assuming none of these people ever make a mistake. Which is simply not true. If those two equally skilled people go at it long enough, it's a virtual certainty that one of them will eventually make a mistake. And then BOOM.
> You cannot really predict which of two equally skilled opponents will make that mistake, but it's pretty much inevitable that one will, eventually.
> I agree with the point you're making (although I doubt young Alan will grasp it), but it's important to remember that "equal skill" doesn't equal "both totally perfect".


if he makes a mistake he clearly isn't equally skilled, not making mistakes is part of the skill set, dont make any big mistakes and its down to the judges


----------



## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> That just obvious, A boxer cant beat an equally skilled boxer and a wight lifter cant out lift someone who is equally strong
> 
> n



You are comparing athletes from the same art/sport!!! BJJ and wrestling are different arts!


----------



## Dirty Dog

jobo said:


> if he makes a mistake he clearly isn't equally skilled, not making mistakes is part of the skill set



Really? You know someone who never makes the slightest mistake? 
I'm going to call BS on that one.


----------



## Martial D

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If a technique has gone through the developing stage, and also has gone through the testing stage, that technique should work. If one has tried his technique over 10,000 times on the mat and it still doesn't work, he should have modified that technique to make it work long time ago.
> 
> Any defect in Window 1 should be fixed in Window 10 already.



And if any kind of live testing is not only not part of the process, but is highly discouraged? This is the case in many 'martial' arts clubs across the lands.

Ie, window one is often the beginning and the end.


----------



## jobo

Dirty Dog said:


> Really? You know someone who never makes the slightest mistake?
> I'm going to call BS on that one.


 I didnt say I knew anyone who has never made a mistake.

Ive seen plenty of people play competitions at all sorts of sports who haven't made a mistake for the duration of the contest, they possibly forget their wife's birthday the next day,  so not with out error


----------



## Martial D

jobo said:


> you dont think it will work at all ever under any circumstances ?



Depends what you mean by 'it'. If you mean classical aikido(which is always a good example) then sure.

It works when your partner cooperates and knows all the dance steps.


----------



## Martial D

Alan Smithee said:


> Do you actually have an argument?


Your bald assertions do not warrant a counter argument, as they are not themselves an argument.

You have exposed yourself as a layman ten times over in this thread alone.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Martial D said:


> Your bald assertions do not warrant a counter argument, as they are not themselves an argument.
> 
> You have exposed yourself as a layman ten times over in this thread alone.



It is not a bold assertion at all. The surface makes a huge difference.


----------



## dvcochran

Alan Smithee said:


> If you think Aikido is trolling then yes.


Yours seems to be just that.


----------



## dvcochran

Alan Smithee said:


> For cryin out loud, there was a 3rd Dan Aikido black belt instructor with his own dojo who tried a joint twist in a BJJ contest while standing up and nothing happened, the dude just looked at him funny. It was hilarious to see. It did not cause anything


Some of you in depth Youtube training I assume.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Martial D said:


> Depends what you mean by 'it'. If you mean classical aikido(which is always a good example) then sure.
> 
> It works when your partner cooperates and knows all the dance steps.




Koshi-Nage (hip throw) is in "classical Aikido" and works against a resisting opponent.


----------



## Hanzou

jobo said:


> BUT THAT'S JUST tautology, Nothing works at all if you don't have a physical and or skill advantage and always work best if you have both.
> 
> which is why people should train both skill and fitness to give them an advantage



I agree. I'm saying that if your goal is to prove effectiveness, you need to show your concepts working against bigger stronger opponents. Again, that's why UFC1 was so effective at changing the landscape of martial arts. No one is going to be impressed if you're a huge guy wrist locking a smaller guy.


----------



## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> Against high level wrestlers doesn't matter what you do. Imagine if kimura had lost by submission on the ground against Helio despite kimura throwing him around at will on mats before that, would that have proved GJJ superiority?



Um, we train against high level wrestlers in BJJ constantly. Hell, you go to any worthwhile BJJ academy in the US, you'll find the white and blue belt ranks full of ex- high school and collegiate wrestlers. Unlike Judo, Bjj doesn't ban wrestling techniques in practice, so Bjj has incorporated high level wrestling for decades now and it has made the art better overall because of it. From experience I will assure you that those sweeps work just fine against wrestlers high level or otherwise because they're not used to them.


----------



## Martial D

Alan Smithee said:


> It is not a bold assertion at all. The surface makes a huge difference.


In this case it was your assertion that a BJJ guy could never sweep an equally skilled wrestler, that made me cup my face with my palm Picard style.

This tells me that not only do you not train in BJJ, but you also have not been exposed to very much grappling or MMA competition where this is a quite common occurrence.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> I will assure you that those sweeps work just fine against wrestlers high level or otherwise because they're not used to them.



Matt Thornton said publicly in an interview that he doesn't believe he would be able to take down anyone in a competing wrestling club. Anyone.

But I guess your Gracie patented footsweeps are different..Most people who relay their experience transitioning from Wrestling to BJJ state that they cannot be taken down in any other way than guard pull.


----------



## Martial D

Alan Smithee said:


> Koshi-Nage (hip throw) is in "classical Aikido" and works against a resisting opponent.


That the technique exists says nothing of setup, timing,or execution. A lot of the stuff in aikido could work if not done the aikido way(for instance wrist locks are viable from the ground.

The issue is that all of their training is cooperative and choreographed. Without live training, nothing will work, and once live training is added, the execution quickly moves away from aikido based movement because real opponents tend not to rush in hands down and throw themselves at the slightest contact.


----------



## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> Matt Thornton said publicly in an interview that he doesn't believe he would be able to take down anyone in a competing wrestling club. Anyone.
> 
> But I guess your Gracie patented footsweeps are different..Most people who relay their experience transitioning from Wrestling to BJJ state that they cannot be taken down in any other way than guard pull.



All due respect to Matt Thornton, but his opinion isn't supported by simple facts. If wrestlers couldn't be taken down by BJJ exponents, ex-wrestlers wouldn't flood into Bjj gyms or compete in Bjj competitions. They also wouldn't stay with Bjj long enough to become instructors, and high level BJJ practitioners themselves.

Again, your views here are what happens when you lack practical experience. In my time in Bjj I've actually grappled against high school and collegiate wrestlers. I know what's effective against a typical wrestler and what isn't. Wrestlers have EXCELLENT top game, and exert amazing pressure in dominant positions, but they're completely lost when they're in an inferior position, and that makes them highly vulnerable to submissions.

I will admit that you are correct that guard pulling is quite effective against wrestlers, but guard pulling IS a legitimate takedown anyway, so I'm not exactly understanding why you mention guard pulling in such disparaging terms. I know that in some grappling circles, whiney babies view guard pulling as "cheating", but if it works it works.


----------



## Martial D

Alan Smithee said:


> Matt Thornton said publicly in an interview that he doesn't believe he would be able to take down anyone in a competing wrestling club. Anyone.
> 
> But I guess your Gracie patented footsweeps are different..Most people who relay their experience transitioning from Wrestling to BJJ state that they cannot be taken down in any other way than guard pull.


LOL

You don't even know what a sweep is in BJJ.

Gtfo

Hint: it isn't a takedown


----------



## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> All due respect to Matt Thornton, but his opinion isn't supported by simple facts. If wrestlers couldn't be taken down by BJJ exponents, ex-wrestlers wouldn't flood into Bjj gyms or compete in Bjj competitions. They also wouldn't stay with Bjj long enough to become instructors, and high level BJJ practitioners themselves.
> 
> Again, your views here are what happens when you lack practical experience. In my time in Bjj I've actually grappled against high school and collegiate wrestlers. I know what's effective against a typical wrestler and what isn't. I will admit that you are correct that guard pulling is quite effective against wrestlers, but guard pulling IS a legitimate takedown anyway, so I'm not exactly understanding why you mention guard pulling in such disparaging terms. I know that in some grappling circles, whiney babies view guard pulling as "cheating", but if it works it works.



I did not use pulling guard in a disparaging way. I reliably beats both judoka and wrestling purists on the mat in "freestyle grappling rules". On the streets it is much much riskier to d  however and has resulted in concussed jiujitsu guys against even non wrestlers...


----------



## Alan Smithee

Martial D said:


> LOL
> 
> You don't even know what a sweep is in BJJ.
> 
> Gtfo
> 
> Hint: it isn't a takedown



The discussion was from the standing position.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> If wrestlers couldn't be taken down by BJJ exponents, ex-wrestlers wouldn't flood into Bjj gyms or compete in Bjj competitions. They also wouldn't stay with Bjj long enough to become instructors, and high level BJJ practitioners themselves.
> .



What? You think they take BJJ to get better at takedowns? They take it to master ground submissions.


----------



## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> I did not use pulling guard in a disparaging way. I reliably beats both judoka and wrestling purists on the mat in "freestyle grappling rules". On the streets it is much much riskier to d  however and has resulted in concussed jiujitsu guys against even non wrestlers...



"On da streetz" the chances of you running across a highly skilled Judoka or wrestler is slim to zero. However, the Guard isn't there just for offense, it's there for defense as well. In other words, when YOU get taken down and someone is on top of you, you can use the guard to get out of getting your face caved in.


----------



## Martial D

Alan Smithee said:


> I did not use pulling guard in a disparaging way. I reliably beats both judoka and wrestling purists on the mat in "freestyle grappling rules". On the streets it is much much riskier to d  however and has resulted in concussed jiujitsu guys against even non wrestlers...


Actually pulling guard is really risky and low percentage outside of pure BJJ comp. You should really go train for a year and gain SOME level of understanding before posting here. Really.


----------



## jobo

Hanzou said:


> I agree. I'm saying that if your goal is to prove effectiveness, you need to show your concepts working against bigger stronger opponents. Again, that's why UFC1 was so effective at changing the landscape of martial arts. No one is going to be impressed if you're a huge guy wrist locking a smaller guy.


but your using size and strength as if they are synonymous and there aren't, the strongest person tends to be the one with the best strength training program, irrespective of their physical size

Now some people are undoubtedly BIG and strong, but i know a fair number of people who are big and relatively weak, So you cant look at two people and make an accurate prediction the biggest is strongest.  Therefore  putting the little guy in a wrist lock may indeed be very impressive


----------



## Martial D

Alan Smithee said:


> The discussion was from the standing position.


That would be a takedown then, not a sweep.

At least learn the correct terms before you attempt to play at being an instant expert.


----------



## Hanzou

jobo said:


> but your using size and strength as if they are synonymous and there aren't, the strongest person tends to be the one with the best strength training program, irrespective of their physical size
> 
> Now some people are undoubtedly BIG and strong, but you cant look at two people and make an accurate prediction the biggest is strongest.  so putting the little guy in a wrist lock may indeed be very impressive



Eh, I was talking about Dan the Wolfman who is both stronger and more skilled than the people he grapples with in his videos. I think he'd be better served getting one of his scrawney students and having that student using those Aikido methods on bigger and stronger grapplers.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> "On da streetz" the chances of you running across a highly skilled Judoka or wrestler is slim to zero. However, the Guard isn't there just for offense, it's there for defense as well. In other words, when YOU get taken down and someone is on top of you, you can use the guard to get out of getting your face caved in.



Back again to the original post... The Gracie challenges set out to prove the most effective style, but they only did so on a mat. A wrestler with any good sense will focus on slamming in a street altercation against a BJJ practitioner and this is a perfectly good equalizer, to put it mildly.


----------



## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> The discussion was from the standing position.



The discussion (you started) was someone getting slammed while in Guard. I countered that a Bjj person worth their salt on "da streetz" would know to release their Guard when they've lost posture control of their opponent.


----------



## jobo

Hanzou said:


> Eh, I was talking about Dan the Wolfman who is both stronger and more skilled than the people he grapples with in his videos. I think he'd be better served getting one of his scrawney students and having that student using those Aikido methods on bigger and stronger grapplers.


his size is reasonably obvious, whats not clear is how you have assessed his strength and that of the scrawny student ? the immediate solution would seem to be for scrawning students to hit the gym, if they don't already do so

his students may not wish to go against skilled grapplers, they may be reserving their efforts for aggressive drunk and road ragers


----------



## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> Back again to the original post... The Gracie challenges set out to prove the most effective style, but they only did so on a mat. A wrestler with any good sense will focus on slamming in a street altercation against a BJJ practitioner and this is a perfectly good equalizer, to put it mildly.



You do know that someone can be concussed or seriously injured by getting slammed in a ring right? The Octagon and Rings aren't mats, they're canvases.


----------



## Hanzou

jobo said:


> his size is reasonably obvious, whats not clear is how you have assessed his strength and that of the scrawny student ? the immediate solution would seem to be for scrawning students to hit the gym, if they don't already do so
> 
> his students may not wish to go against skilled grapplers, they may be reserving their efforts for aggressive drunk and road ragers



Hmm, I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm talking about....


----------



## Martial D

Hanzou said:


> You do know that someone can be concussed or seriously injured by getting slammed in a ring right? The Octagon and Rings aren't mats, they're canvases.


It's unlikely that he knows that, given the rest of his posts.

I find it unlikely this fella has trained a day in his life.


----------



## jobo

Hanzou said:


> Hmm, I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm talking about....


your making a claim he is both bigger{ which he is} and stronger which you have no data for at all. just a stereotype

If he is indeed stronger than his students and that gives him an advantage in using the skills, they the students should seek to increase their strength, then they will have the same advantage


----------



## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> The discussion (you started) was someone getting slammed while in Guard. I countered that a Bjj person worth their salt on "da streetz" would know to release their Guard when they've lost posture control of their opponent.



I get it. You claim there are other grappling options to them against a wrestler when there's not a mat. I contend that these are highly idealistic assumptions against someone that works takedowns all the bloody time and is equally skilled at what he is doing as the jiuijitsu guy is on the ground. And yes, even if you introduce techniques that he is less familiar with. 

There will always be outliers but my money is on the wrestler. That is all!


----------



## Hanzou

Martial D said:


> It's unlikely that he knows that, given the rest of his posts.
> 
> I find it unlikely this fella has trained a day in his life.



The mere idea that Bjj would be where it's at today if it got dominated by wrestlers (and Judoka) is utter nonsense. Who in there right mind would spend money and time to earn a Bjj blackbelt if they could manhandle Bjj black and brown belts with a few years wrestling experience? Again, part of the reason Bjj has gotten so successful is that it embraced American wrestling and made it a part of the system. Where its sister art Judo discourages and avoids wrestling, Bjj welcomes it with open arms.


----------



## Hanzou

jobo said:


> your making a claim he is both bigger{ which he is} and stronger which you have no data for at all. just a stereotype
> 
> If he is indeed stronger than his students and that gives him an advantage in using the skills, they the students should seek to increase their strength, then they will have the same advantage



I think you need to watch the videos that Jow Ga posted. There is a clear size and strength advantage.


----------



## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> Back again to the original post... The Gracie challenges set out to prove the most effective style, but they only did so on a mat. A wrestler with any good sense will focus on slamming in a street altercation against a BJJ practitioner and this is a perfectly good equalizer, to put it mildly.


so how many times do you think a good level wrestler and a good level BJJ have had a street fight, ? im not saying it has never happened in the history of the world, BUT its significantly rare to make your point some what Moot


----------



## jobo

Hanzou said:


> I think you need to watch the videos that Jow Ga posted. There is a clear size and strength advantage.


ok again HOW have you assessed to strength advantage ?


----------



## Alan Smithee

jobo said:


> so how many times do you think a good level wrestler and a good level BJJ have had a street fight, ? im not saying it has never happened in the history of the world, BUT its significantly rare to make your point some what Moot



What difference does it make. The Gracies wanted to prove a point that "this is what would happen". That's why they challenged clubs all around the world and marketed their system.


----------



## punisher73

Ok, I still have no idea what the OP actually was.  It was first pointed out that rolling out of a submission/wrist lock is done for training as a method of countering a joint lock.  Then it moved to wrist locks don't work at all.  THEN is moved to aikido doesn't work because they don't train with resistance.  Hard to make a point when you keep moving the target.

But, since the focus seems to be on arts that use "live training" as an example.  Here is a dvd set by a world champion BJJ player who covers just wrist locks from any standing/ground position and how to properly apply them.  Also, note that using a wrist lock should be "sneaky" and not just grabbing at someone to apply it.  Note, this is not an advertisement for the product, just using to highlight it as an example if you read the description because he talks about how most BJJ players never learned wrist locks, which is why most don't use or attempt them and how most who do know them don't use them properly.

Wristlock The World - Pete The Greek DVD Review – BJJ World


----------



## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> I get it. You claim there are other grappling options to them against a wrestler when there's not a mat. I contend that these are highly idealistic assumptions against someone that works takedowns all the bloody time and is equally skilled at what he is doing as the jiuijitsu guy is on the ground. And yes, even if you introduce techniques that he is less familiar with.
> 
> There will always be outliers but my money is on the wrestler. That is all!



Bro, I can assure you that wrestlers aren't working double ankle or waiter sweeps. Why would you ever work something like that in a sport where you *lose* if you're on your back?


----------



## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> Bro, I can assure you that wrestlers aren't working double ankle or waiter sweeps.



Who cares what they decide to do? You are in their world unless you pull guard or do something rather spectacular to get them into _your world_.  They are not going to fall for the tricks in the early days.


----------



## jobo

Alan Smithee said:


> What difference does it make. The Gracies wanted to prove a point that "this is what would happen". That's why they challenged clubs all around the world and marketed their system.


it makes a difference as your predicting an outcome for two arts you have no experience of and have never seen used against each in a street altercation other wise to have any understanding as to what may happen

which makes your prediction fanciful at best


----------



## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> Who cares what they decide to do? You are in their world unless you pull guard or do something rather spectacular to get them into _your world_.  They are not going to fall for the tricks in the early days.



Wow, that point flew right over your head. Oh well...

So let me ask you again; If wrestlers are so effective at stopping BJJ completely, why do so many of them train in it all the way to black belt? If you're a collegiate wrestler and you can impose your will on an entire class full of Bjj practitioners including their instructor on your first day, why would you stick around?


----------



## Alan Smithee

punisher73 said:


> Ok, I still have no idea what the OP actually was.  It was first pointed out that rolling out of a submission/wrist lock is done for training as a method of countering a joint lock.  Then it moved to wrist locks don't work at all.  THEN is moved to aikido doesn't work because they don't train with resistance.  Hard to make a point when you keep moving the target.



What is so hard to understand? Aikido rests on the assumption that you have to comply to the wrist locks or else you get hurt, hence there is no real live resistance, hence you can never master anything because it's all choreographed in advance. 

To that I asked: what makes someone a technical master of an art that is all choreographed?


----------



## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> So let me ask you again; If wrestlers are so effective at stopping BJJ completely, why do so many of them train in it all the way to black belt? If you're a collegiate wrestler and you can impose your will on an entire class full of Bjj practitioners including their instructor on your first day, why would you stick around?



Because they aren't effective at stopping it on the mat/competition formats. I think I've written 5 times now that pulling guard reliably beats wrestling and even judo on the mat if they don't know BJJ.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


> Uh, I'm not moving the goalpost. What I'm saying is that it's easy to make things work when you have a size and skill advantage over your partner. Such is the case with Wolfman in his videos.


That's true.  But that's the reality that we all train for right?  Bigger size  = more functional muscle strength.  Better skilled = You do style A better than your opponent does style A. 

If you want to see to see someone of equal size and strength use it, then there is a clip of one of his students (I think it was his student) who is in a BJJ match that uses a wrist lock to take his opponent now.  He actually points that out because he knew that there would be people like you who would say that he's only able to do the techniques because of his size.  The video of his student in competition illustrates that people of the same size and relative strength can be successful with the technique.


----------



## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> Because they aren't effective at stopping it on the mat/competition formats. I think I've written 5 times now that pulling guard reliably beats wrestling and even judo on the mat if they don't know BJJ.



So if they aren't effective at stopping them in training and competition formats, why would they be able to stop them on "da streetz"?


----------



## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> That's true.  But that's the reality that we all train for right?  Bigger size  = more functional muscle strength.  Better skilled = You do style A better than your opponent does style A.
> 
> If you want to see to see someone of equal size and strength use it, then there is a clip of one of his students (I think it was his student) who is in a BJJ match that uses a wrist lock to take his opponent now.  He actually points that out because he knew that there would be people like you who would say that he's only able to do the techniques because of his size.  The video of his student in competition illustrates that people of the same size and relative strength can be successful with the technique.



Yeah, but I have the same issue with that that I have with folks like Roy Dean; There simply isn't enough evidence to show what they're doing is making grappling more effective overall. Like when I see Roy Dean use his "Aikido" techniques, I'm just seeing Bjj wrist locks. Also Dean's students aren't exactly lighting the competitive world on fire with that influx of Aikido techniques. The same can be said for Wolfman's student who happened to win a match using an unorthodox technique.

Nothing in the above examples matches what you saw out of Bravo and Renzo's schools in the earlier part of the decade with the leg locking phase that lit the competitive BJJ world on fire and completely revolutionized the art. Until something like that occurs with all of this "Aikido" stuff, it's just a marketing ploy IMO.


----------



## punisher73

Alan Smithee said:


> What is so hard to understand? Aikido rests on the assumption that you have to comply to the wrist locks or else you get hurt, hence there is no real live resistance, hence you can never master anything because it's all choreographed in advance.
> 
> To that I asked: what makes someone a technical master of an art that is all choreographed?



That's just it...YOU AREN'T GETTING IT!!! I don't know how much more plainly, I or anyone else, can make it.  There is NO assumption that you have to comply with the wrist locks or else you get hurt.  You have NO UNDERSTANDING of what drilling is in ANY martial art.  Take ANY martial art and you will work on certain skills and certain drills where BOTH parties agree to certain things.  Training is a two way street and you seem to have no grasp of that.  Each person should be learning a skill whether attacker/defender.  So, in the case of Aikido, in DRILLING one person will execute the lock and IF APPLIED CORRECTLY you practice rolling or a breakfall, this way both parties can practice valuable skills.  

When I trained Aikido, the instructor ALWAYS made sure that everything was in place and no one was just giving them the lock and flopping to the ground.  Going to the ground was the RESULT of a properly executed lock or throw.  How can you not grasp this?  You can't make blanket statements of all/none in martial arts.  Just because your experience is different than people who have other experiences it doesn't mean they are wrong.  I think we can all agree though that when it comes to Aikido, there are many people and many schools that don't focus on Aikido for it's martial capabilities, but look to it for the self improvement and spiritual aspects.  That doesn't mean that the martial aspects aren't there or that no one trains them.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> Frankly, the excuse that 'sure, it seems like it doesn't work at all based on 100% of the evidence available BUT surely their are hidden masters lurking in the darkness laughing at us from their secret dojos somewhere' is well past it's due date.


I never mentioned masters. If it's true in for my situation, then it must be true for others. What is the possibility that I'm the only one that trains and fit what I described?  How many people can you find sparing and using Jow Ga techniques?  Compared to Jow Ga, I'm willing to bet that you'll find more people sparring with Aikido than with Jow ga.  If I'm functional with Jow Ga then the chances that someone in Aikido who has far more students is functional in Aikido.

Then I posted a video of a guy who says he used aikido in sparring, then he posted a video of someone using an Aikido technique in competition.  So I don't see how any of this wouldn't be considered as evidence by most.

If you are looking for that flowing look that Aikido has, to show up in a fight, then I'm going to tell you that you aren't going to see that.  Anyone who trains a TMA and can use the techniques, will tell you that the technique will remain but the crisp movie like movements are going to be the first victim in martial arts application.


----------



## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> I never mentioned masters. If it's true in for my situation, then it must be true for others. What is the possibility that I'm the only one that trains and fit what I described?  How many people can you find sparing and using Jow Ga techniques?  Compared to Jow Ga, I'm willing to bet that you'll find more people sparring with Aikido than with Jow ga.  If I'm functional with Jow Ga then the chances that someone in Aikido who has far more students is functional in Aikido.
> 
> Then I posted a video of a guy who says he used aikido in sparring, then he posted a video of someone using an Aikido technique in competition.  So I don't see how any of this wouldn't be considered as evidence by most.
> 
> If you are looking for that flowing look that Aikido has, to show up in a fight, then I'm going to tell you that you aren't going to see that.  Anyone who trains a TMA and can use the techniques, will tell you that the technique will remain but the crisp movie like movements are going to be the first victim in martial arts application.



I think for most people, for it to be considered "effective" it needs to be shown at the highest levels of martial arts. 

That would be MMA.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


> There simply isn't enough evidence to show what they're doing is making grappling more effective overall.


 This was never my argument nor my expectation.  I don't think I've ever had the perspective that what someone does makes something more effective.  To me it either works or it doesn't.  Efficiency, effectiveness, consistency is all going to change from fighter to fighter and opponent to opponent.   



Hanzou said:


> Like when I see Roy Dean use his "Aikido" techniques, I'm just seeing Bjj wrist locks


That's because like punches some joint lock techniques are universal across multiple systems. No one system can lay claim that it's only BJJ, japanese, chinese..etc.  This is why I enjoy talking to people from other systems.  They may have a different approach to the same technique I know or to a similar technique.



Hanzou said:


> Until something like that occurs with all of this "Aikido" stuff, it's just a marketing ploy IMO.


My thoughts on this is that I don't do Aikido so I'm the last person who wants to say what Aikido needs to do.  What I do know that's representing a systems functionality is going to be the responsibility of those who practice and train Aikido.  Anyone out side of that is just going to get bits and pieces.  "this piece works" vs "this system works".   That will be up to those guys.  The most I can do is pick out.  "this piece works"


----------



## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> So if they aren't effective at stopping them in training and competition formats, why would they be able to stop them on "da streetz"?



Because they are not allowed to slam in BJJ events and because a slam puts an end to it on the streetz but not on a mat, and because they want to learn submissions.


----------



## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> Because they are not allowed to slam in BJJ events and because a slam puts an end to it on the streetz but not on a mat, and because they want to learn submissions.



You're allowed to slam in MMA. Why isn't BJJ completely made obsolete in MMA due to wrestling?


----------



## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> My thoughts on this is that I don't do Aikido so I'm the last person who wants to say what Aikido needs to do.  What I do know that's representing a systems functionality is going to be the responsibility of those who practice and train Aikido.  Anyone out side of that is just going to get bits and pieces.  "this piece works" vs "this system works".   That will be up to those guys.  The most I can do is pick out.  "this piece works"



Well yeah, but they're piggy backing off of BJJ. I think if Aikidoka want their art to be viewed as more effective, it needs its advocates to let it stand on it's own merit.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> You're allowed to slam in MMA.



MMA is not fought on a concrete surface. You agreed that pulling guard is inadvisable on the streets, so why are you arguing? Anybody in MMA today crosstrain wrestling so there is no hole.


----------



## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> MMA is not fought on a concrete surface. You agreed that pulling guard is inadvisable on the streets, so why are you arguing? Anybody in MMA today crosstrain wrestling so there is no hole.



Yeah, and MMA isn't fought on a soft mattress either. I've had friends of mine badly injured from getting slammed in the ring. One friend of mine got his collarbone broken and shoulder dislocated from a single slam. Even on mats you can get badly injured from throws and slams. 

Fighting on the streets is inadvisable period.


----------



## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, and MMA isn't fought on a soft mattress either. I've had friends of mine badly injured from getting slammed in the ring. One friend of mine got his collarbone broken and shoulder dislocated from a single slam. Even on mats you can get badly injured from throws and slams.
> 
> Fighting on the streets is inadvisable period.



And like I said, everybody crosstrains and wrestling based are absolutely dominating the sport.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


> I think for most people, for it to be considered "effective" it needs to be shown at the highest levels of martial arts.
> 
> That would be MMA.


For me, my standard is much lower.  If I can beat up my attacker using the technique then it's effective.  If I can spar and pull my techniques off against 90% of the people I go againt of various skill level including those who are more skilled than me then I'm happy with the effectiveness.

If I can fight and win against 90% of the people that I go against of various skill levels and systems, then I'm happy with the effectiveness.  If my fight performance does not match or exceed my sparring percentage then I will question my effectiveness and will go back to see see what I'm doing wrong.  I've been in more real fights than professional MMA fights.  So that's where my standard lies.  What works for me in my life, can it get me out of a jam.

Also MMA doesn't use weapons so right there it would instantly fail an effectiveness standard that I think Jow Ga should have.  I'm not saying this to be funny.  I want to be functional using Jow Ga staff, so I'm more likely to Join HEMA to test that out instead of using MMA.


----------



## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> And like I said, everybody crosstrains and wrestling based are absolutely dominating the sport.



Uh, all grappling is "wrestling based". That includes BJJ and Judo.

Seriously, wtf are you talking about?


----------



## Alan Smithee

Hanzou said:


> Uh, all grappling is "wrestling based". That includes BJJ and Judo.
> 
> Seriously, wtf are you talking about?



Don't be silly. You know what I mean. Collegiate and Olympic wrestlers are the majority of champions in the UFC.


----------



## Martial D

JowGaWolf said:


> I never mentioned masters. If it's true in for my situation, then it must be true for others. What is the possibility that I'm the only one that trains and fit what I described?  How many people can you find sparing and using Jow Ga techniques?  Compared to Jow Ga, I'm willing to bet that you'll find more people sparring with Aikido than with Jow ga.  If I'm functional with Jow Ga then the chances that someone in Aikido who has far more students is functional in Aikido.
> 
> Then I posted a video of a guy who says he used aikido in sparring, then he posted a video of someone using an Aikido technique in competition.  So I don't see how any of this wouldn't be considered as evidence by most.
> 
> If you are looking for that flowing look that Aikido has, to show up in a fight, then I'm going to tell you that you aren't going to see that.  Anyone who trains a TMA and can use the techniques, will tell you that the technique will remain but the crisp movie like movements are going to be the first victim in martial arts application.


Let's be real here. Though I respect your commitment, you certainly haven't demonstrated that your Kung Fu can stand against a trained fighter. Yes, if you hit someone with a reverse tiger claw or standing backfist or something it will hurt, but something like that isn't on the level of any given boxing or Muay Thai strike.

There just isn't a culture spanning hundreds of years of jow ga guys fighting each other/all comers in a live environment.

Let's see some jow ga working on a trained fighter at the top level and we can talk about that.

In the words of Joe Rogan;

The **** that works against trained killers is the best ****.


----------



## Hanzou

Alan Smithee said:


> Don't be silly. You know what I mean. Collegiate and Olympic wrestlers are the majority of champions in the UFC.



Yeah, no they aren't.

That said, the number of UFC champions with wrestling backgrounds wasn't really the point.


----------



## jobo

Martial D said:


> Let's be real here. Though I respect your commitment, you certainly haven't demonstrated that your Kung Fu can stand against a trained fighter. Yes, if you hit someone with a reverse tiger claw or standing backfist or something it will hurt, but something like that isn't on the level of any given boxing or Muay Thai strike.
> 
> There just isn't a culture spanning hundreds of years of jow ga guys fighting each other/all comers in a live environment.
> 
> Let's see some jow ga working on a trained fighter at the top level and we can talk about that.
> 
> In the words of Joe Rogan;
> 
> The **** that works against trained killers is the best ****.


but your putting an arbitrary measure on what is and isn't effective.

back in the day when I did jow ga its was EXTREMELY effective in numerous altercation.

I remember one where a guy was threatening to put a glass in my face and i knew he couldn't hit me with it. so I said go on try it and he did and he couldn't hit me with it. Now that's a very good measure of it being effective with practical benefits like still having the sight in both eyes


----------



## punisher73

Martial D said:


> Let's be real here. Though I respect your commitment, you certainly haven't demonstrated that your Kung Fu can stand against a trained fighter. *Yes, if you hit someone with a reverse tiger claw or standing backfist or something it will hurt, but something like that isn't on the level of any given boxing or Muay Thai strike.*
> 
> There just isn't a culture spanning hundreds of years of jow ga guys fighting each other/all comers in a live environment.
> 
> Let's see some jow ga working on a trained fighter at the top level and we can talk about that.
> 
> In the words of Joe Rogan;
> 
> The **** that works against trained killers is the best ****.



Not to derail this, but it is along the same lines.  A kote-gaehsi or turning wrist lock is the same no matter how many arts its found in.  Yes, kung fu (Jow Gar) has techniques not found in Muay Thai or other combat sports.  But, you see their individual techniques being used all the time in MMA.  For example, here is Chuck Liddell teaching his famous "Overhand Right" punch.  Look at how he trains and drills it, it is the same punch in Jow Gar (and other kung fu styles) known as a Sau Choi. 






"MMA" isn't the UFC.  MMA in other countries have different base arts.  People often forget that Mixed Martial Arts are just a mix of miscellaneous techniques from LOTS of different martial arts that work best in that given rule set and environment, and it not a set style.  It is NOT the end all and be all for empty hand to hand.  If you looked at Pride, it had a different rule set and environment and fighters used different things that you don't see in the UFC.  If you changed the UFC rules and octagon, you would start seeing other things.  Also, depending on the fighter you see certain techniques that other fighters don't use.  If you just watched Nick Diaz, you would think that the best is boxing and bjj.  If you just watched Randy Couture you would think that the best thing is clinch boxing and wrestling.  If you just watched Jon Jones you would get another picture of what works.  Each of those fighters had a base that worked for them and they built on it.  They didn't all use the same thing.  The one thing that ALL of them have in common though is that ALL of their techniques come from the traditional martial arts.


----------



## Alan Smithee

punisher73 said:


> When I trained Aikido, the instructor ALWAYS made sure that everything was in place and no one was just giving them the lock and flopping to the ground.  Going to the ground was the RESULT of a properly executed lock or throw.



You instructor told you that when you do it "like this" and your partner gets the signal that you "done it like this", he or she does a corresponding fall technique. This is assuming the technique works in the first place.

 It hasn't been challenged that doing it "like this" actually works.  It is assumed.


----------



## Martial D

jobo said:


> but your putting an arbitrary measure on what is and isn't effective.
> 
> back in the day when I did jow ga its was EXTREMELY effective in numerous altercation.
> 
> I remember one where a guy was threatening to put a glass in my face and i knew he couldn't hit me with it. so I said go on try it and he did and he couldn't hit me with it. Now that's a very good measure of it being effective with practical benefits like still having the sight in both eyes


If anecdotes were reliable all TMAs would be filled to the brim with trained killers doing 'too deadly for the cage' techniques.

Once you require other forms of evidence that narrative quickly evaporates.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


> Well yeah, but they're piggy backing off of BJJ. I think if Aikidoka want their art to be viewed as more effective, it needs its advocates to let it stand on it's own merit.


 There's nothing wrong with that if BJJ has a better approach to help setting up your  Aikido techniques.  For example,  There have been times when I've seen a similar technique from a different system and I see how they were able to set up that technique.  Then I go back and I ask myself can I set up my Jow Ga technique the same way that karate set up their karate technique.  And a lot of times the answer is yes, even through one technique is Karate and the other is Jow Ga.  The technique is similar enough were both are able to exploit the same scenario.  If this is what is going on then they can still stay true to Aikido.

At this point you aren't substituting  techniques,  instead are gaining a better understanding in which an Aikido technique can be used. This would stay true to Aikido.  It's only when you start substituting techniques to replace an Aikido technique that you run the risk of watering down Aikido or changing it into something else.  Both are acceptable outcomes, but it will be up to the Aikido practitioner to determine that.  I'm on the outside so I can't say what percentage of adoption keeps the system Aikido and what percentage changes the system into something else.


----------



## jobo

Martial D said:


> If anecdotes were reliable all TMAs would be filled to the brim with trained killers doing 'too deadly for the cage' techniques.
> 
> Once you require other forms of evidence that narrative quickly evaporates.


anecdotes are all you've brought to the table, show me evidence that your training is effective, not someone else's training YOURS


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, but I have the same issue with that that I have with folks like Roy Dean; There simply isn't enough evidence to show what they're doing is making grappling more effective overall. Like when I see Roy Dean use his "Aikido" techniques, I'm just seeing Bjj wrist locks. Also Dean's students aren't exactly lighting the competitive world on fire with that influx of Aikido techniques. The same can be said for Wolfman's student who happened to win a match using an unorthodox technique.
> 
> Nothing in the above examples matches what you saw out of Bravo and Renzo's schools in the earlier part of the decade with the leg locking phase that lit the competitive BJJ world on fire and completely revolutionized the art. Until something like that occurs with all of this "Aikido" stuff, it's just a marketing ploy IMO.



It is a bit like if you want to be a top gun eye gouging expert. You don't go an do Krav and train eye gouging all day. You box and wrestle and then adapt that. 

Because that is the structure that makes the technique work. 

Same with wristlocks. If I dominate the clinch or the grip fight I will have a much higher percentage of successfully applying wrist locks than if I study wristlocks for ten years. 

Otherwise yeah proof you can use wristlocks on smaller less experienced guys is what it is I suppose.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Martial D said:


> And if any kind of live testing is not only not part of the process, but is highly discouraged? This is the case in many 'martial' arts clubs across the lands.


Agree with you that if Aikido live testing was discouraged as a policy, that could be a serious problem.

Many years ago, one weekend, Sensei Armando Flores and another Karate friend of mine visited me in my house. There was a Karate tournament in town that day. All 3 of us went to compete that tournament. Armando was disqualified by using too much force on face contact. He was kicked out of his Aikido Association after that day.

Not sure what kind of Aikido policy has today. Does anybody know?


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> but your putting an arbitrary measure on what is and isn't effective.
> 
> back in the day when I did jow ga its was EXTREMELY effective in numerous altercation.
> 
> I remember one where a guy was threatening to put a glass in my face and i knew he couldn't hit me with it. so I said go on try it and he did and he couldn't hit me with it. Now that's a very good measure of it being effective with practical benefits like still having the sight in both eyes



It is Flying cranes imaginary cat though. The one he assures you exists but just never can find evidence of it.


----------



## drop bear

So anyway all reminds me of this video again.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> Yes, if you hit someone with a reverse tiger claw or standing backfist or something it will hurt, but something like that isn't on the level of any given boxing or Muay Thai strike.


 Tiger claw concepts displayed in MMA.  Just me personally.  I prefer you kicking the crap out of my leg then putting your fingers in my eyes.  I rather take a muay thai kick then you putting your fingers in my eyes then following up with trying to pull me by my face.  I'm not sure if you know the application of what tiger claw is, but the first part is what you see in the videos below.  The second part  would be to grab the face like you would grab punching back.  The 3rd part would be then to pull on the face after you have grabbed it.  Pulling down, left, right, or back are acceptable pulls.  Doing 1 or all parts is acceptable to be within the concept of Tiger Claw. 

Most people only know Hollywood Tiger claw and expect it to look like that.  But in reality it looks a lot like what the videos show below.










As far as comparing a tiger claw to a kick or a punch.  That's ridiculous as all three are designed for different purposes.  This is exactly what I mean when I say that MMA is not a good standard for measuring the totality of a martial arts. At most you will only get parts of  a martial arts consists of.



Martial D said:


> There just isn't a culture spanning hundreds of years of jow ga guys fighting each other/all comers in a live environment.


 Hung ga is said to be created in the 17th century some time in the 1600's, so is that hundreds of years?  I think they only had written and word of mouth documentation of history back then.

Before I joined Martial Talk, did you even know that Jow Ga Kung Fu existed?  Has anyone told you about the tournaments that the practitioners from the early years of Jow Ga which including fighting people from various places including Thailand?  Has anyone told you about the tournaments that Hung ga practitioners participated in before Jow Ga kung fu was created?  Have you even research such a thing?



Martial D said:


> The **** that works against trained killers is the best ****.


Again this doesn't make sense to me.  So train killers use poisons, explosives, knives, guns, and other things that aren't fighting with the bare hands with no weapons  What point are you trying to make?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Martial D said:


> Actually pulling guard is really risky and low percentage outside of pure BJJ comp.


I don't understand why people like to use pull guard.

If my right hand grab on your right door, when you use pull guard on me, my right forearm will be right across your throat when we both land on the ground. If I want to play dirty, my right elbow can smash on your nose.

In the following picture, if the white applies pull guard, the red's right fore arm will land right on white's throat.

How will BJJ expert solve this issue?


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> Tiger claw concepts displayed in MMA.  Just me personally.  I prefer you kicking the crap out of my leg then putting your fingers in my eyes.  I rather take a muay thai kick then you putting your fingers in my eyes then following up with trying to pull me by my face.  I'm not sure if you know the application of what tiger claw is, but the first part is what you see in the videos below.  The second part  would be to grab the face like you would grab punching back.  The 3rd part would be then to pull on the face after you have grabbed it.  Pulling down, left, right, or back are acceptable pulls.  Doing 1 or all parts is acceptable to be within the concept of Tiger Claw.
> 
> Most people only know Hollywood Tiger claw and expect it to look like that.  But in reality it looks a lot like what the videos show below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as comparing a tiger claw to a kick or a punch.  That's ridiculous as all three are designed for different purposes.  This is exactly what I mean when I say that MMA is not a good standard for measuring the totality of a martial arts. At most you will only get parts of  a martial arts consists of.
> 
> Hung ga is said to be created in the 17th century some time in the 1600's, so is that hundreds of years?  I think they only had written and word of mouth documentation of history back then.
> 
> Before I joined Martial Talk, did you even know that Jow Ga Kung Fu existed?  Has anyone told you about the tournaments that the practitioners from the early years of Jow Ga which including fighting people from various places including Thailand?  Has anyone told you about the tournaments that Hung ga practitioners participated in before Jow Ga kung fu was created?  Have you even research such a thing?
> 
> Again this doesn't make sense to me.  So train killers use poisons, explosives, knives, guns, and other things that aren't fighting with the bare hands with no weapons  What point are you trying to make?



I would rather avoid those barbosa knee destroying leg kicks.


----------



## drop bear

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't understand why people like to use pull guard.
> 
> If my right hand grab on your right door, when you use pull guard on me, my right forearm will be right across your throat when we both land on the ground. If I want to play dirty, my right elbow can smash on your nose.
> 
> In the following picture, if the white applies pull guard, the red's right fore arm will land right on white's throat.
> 
> How will BJJ expert solve this issue?



Pull guard in to a triangle.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Alan Smithee said:


> You instructor told you that when you do it "like this" and your partner gets the signal that you "done it like this", he or she does a corresponding fall technique. This is assuming the technique works in the first place.


If you are training joint locks like this then you are doing it all wrong.  Comply doesn't and shouldn't mean you preemptively go along.  You should still be able to fill the tension in the wrist and when you feel that, that is when you go with it the lock. 

The way I trained locks in school was we allowed people to put the locks on us.  If my partner gets the technique correct then I should feel the pain without the damage and at that point I should not try to fight it.  If my partner doesn't get the technique correct then I don't go with it.  Instead I inform my partner that he has not done the technique correctly.  I continue to do this until my partner gets the technique correct.  

The only signal I should be giving my partner that one where I'm feeling the pain.  Depending on the type of joint lock being used, there may be no "going along option"  There may only be a quickly tapping of the hand or your partner makes a grunting noise in pain as he forgets to tap out.  My first time training joint locks, I learned that Tapping out is a learned response.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> If anecdotes were reliable all TMAs would be filled to the brim with trained killers doing 'too deadly for the cage' techniques.
> 
> Once you require other forms of evidence that narrative quickly evaporates.


One of my goals is to be functional with my staff techniques.  If I want to learn how to be functional with my Staff techniques, then how am I going to test that in an MMA fight?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

drop bear said:


> Pull guard in to a triangle.


Do you have any clip to show that?

In the following picture, when white uses leg to lift blue, blue can also use his foot to step into white's groin (symmetry). This is one example that technique X can be used to counter technique X itself.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> I would rather avoid those barbosa knee destroying leg kicks.


I need my eyes.  So one kick please..  lol.    Leg kicks are awesome though.  It really speaks volumes to the power behind those kicks and the technique.


----------



## Alan Smithee

[
L


Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you have any clip to show that?
> 
> In the following picture, when white uses leg to lift blue, blue can also use his foot to step into white's groin (symmetry). This is one example that technique X can be used to counter technique X itself.



White is not doing a triangel in the picture


----------



## Martial D

jobo said:


> anecdotes are all you've brought to the table, show me evidence that your training is effective, not someone else's training YOURS



Discussing how I train personally would be a weird derail to the thread. This isn't about any one individual.

Also, I'm not sure you know what an anecdote is.


----------



## Martial D

JowGaWolf said:


> Tiger claw concepts displayed in MMA.  Just me personally.  I prefer you kicking the crap out of my leg then putting your fingers in my eyes.  I rather take a muay thai kick then you putting your fingers in my eyes then following up with trying to pull me by my face.  I'm not sure if you know the application of what tiger claw is, but the first part is what you see in the videos below.  The second part  would be to grab the face like you would grab punching back.  The 3rd part would be then to pull on the face after you have grabbed it.  Pulling down, left, right, or back are acceptable pulls.  Doing 1 or all parts is acceptable to be within the concept of Tiger Claw.
> 
> Most people only know Hollywood Tiger claw and expect it to look like that.  But in reality it looks a lot like what the videos show below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as comparing a tiger claw to a kick or a punch.  That's ridiculous as all three are designed for different purposes.  This is exactly what I mean when I say that MMA is not a good standard for measuring the totality of a martial arts. At most you will only get parts of  a martial arts consists of.
> 
> Hung ga is said to be created in the 17th century some time in the 1600's, so is that hundreds of years?  I think they only had written and word of mouth documentation of history back then.
> 
> Before I joined Martial Talk, did you even know that Jow Ga Kung Fu existed?  Has anyone told you about the tournaments that the practitioners from the early years of Jow Ga which including fighting people from various places including Thailand?  Has anyone told you about the tournaments that Hung ga practitioners participated in before Jow Ga kung fu was created?  Have you even research such a thing?
> 
> Again this doesn't make sense to me.  So train killers use poisons, explosives, knives, guns, and other things that aren't fighting with the bare hands with no weapons  What point are you trying to make?


/R/whoosh

Where to start.

Yes, every TMA has history and lore and tales of unbeatable fighters, etc.

They never seem to show up in the present day though. Weird.

And by trained killers, I am obviously not talking about guns and knives. I'll try to remember not to make analogies when responding to you in the future lol


----------



## Martial D

JowGaWolf said:


> One of my goals is to be functional with my staff techniques.  If I want to learn how to be functional with my Staff techniques, then how am I going to test that in an MMA fight?


Uhh..what? You're not.

You're also not going to get any better at fighting with it by whirling around and fighting imaginary people doing a choreographed routine.

What you would have to do is gear up and do a ton of HEMA style sparring.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Alan Smithee said:


> White is not doing a triangel in the picture


At 0.27, white's

- right elbow can drop on black's throat (or nose).
- left knee can drop into black's groin.

When you pull your opponent down, it's very difficult to judge whether your opponent drops his elbow, or knee on you on purpose, or he just loses his balance.

Many injury can happen when pull guard is applied even if BJJ can be a safe and friendly game.

Someone dropped his elbow straight down on my heart while I was on the ground. I was almost killed that day. Even today, I still worry about my opponent "elbow dropping".


----------



## Hanzou

Kung Fu Wang said:


> At 0.27, white's
> 
> - right elbow can drop on black's throat (or nose).
> - left knee can drop into black's groin.
> 
> When you pull your opponent down, it's very difficult to judge whether your opponent drops his elbow, or knee on you on purpose, or he just loses his balance.
> 
> Many injury can happen when pull guard is applied even if BJJ can be a safe and friendly game.




Eh, that's pretty easy to say, but you actually control the speed of Uke's posture collapse in a guard pull, and you can make adjustments as they are falling towards you. If they attempt to bring their elbow to your throat for example, they can actually make things worse for themselves and allow you to sweep them or take their back. This is why techniques like going into a triangle from a guard pull is possible in the first place. This is also why Guard pulls work in MMA environments (albeit by elite level Guard players).


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> Same with wristlocks. If I dominate the clinch or the grip fight I will have a much higher percentage of successfully applying wrist locks than if I study wristlocks for ten years.


Yep. This falls into what we were talking about the building up the strength required to dominate the clinch /grip. and actually using in sparring vs only drilling it every blue moon along with the other 40 or more techniques that a TMA may have.  Can't learn by studying along.  Studying help to get understanding, but everyone still has to go through the test of application. Is what was studied true to what is required for application.  There's only one way to find that out.


----------



## Hanzou

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't understand why people like to use pull guard.
> 
> If my right hand grab on your right door, when you use pull guard on me, my right forearm will be right across your throat when we both land on the ground. If I want to play dirty, my right elbow can smash on your nose.
> 
> In the following picture, if the white applies pull guard, the red's right fore arm will land right on white's throat.
> 
> How will BJJ expert solve this issue?


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> What you would have to do is gear up and do a ton of HEMA style sparring.


 Exatly, which is why I was saying that MMA is not good for being a Standard for Jow Ga.  MMA will allow me to test somethings but not all the things that make up Jow Ga. For example,  The big punches that I do, I have to alter slightly in sparring because some of them naturally fall on the back of the head, which is illegal in competition and in general not nice to do to your sparring punches.   Now if I wanted to test the effectiveness of that punch in an honest manner then I would let the punches naturally land on the back of the head right behind the ear.  

If I want to test out my double dagger skills then maybe HEMA or a Kali will be a good area for that as building a standard.  If the standard is self-defense then maybe the streets are a better marker.  And not even to be funny, but Jow Ga also has lion dance.  soooooo.  I'm just saying that all of what Jow Ga kung fu is doesn't fit neatly into.  Professional MMA fighting.

Now if I could actually participate in MMA fighting (too old for it now) then heck yeah I would go Jow Ga all the way as much as possible with a few escapes from BJJ.  A 90% Jow Ga and 10% something else is still a good Jow Ga performance.  But that's just me and because my goal and passion that have for Jow Ga.  I don't want it to become some forgotten system that used to be good for fighting, but now no one knows how to use it.  To me that's the worst thing that can happen to a valid fighting Martial Arts system.  And I'm not talking about this on the level of creating professional fighters.  I'm talking about this on the level of the knowledge that is lost.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


>


In high school I used a short drop instead of picking up my opponent completely off the ground to slam them.  Short drops allowed me to drive my elbow or shoulder into my opponent multiple times and required less  strength to do it. The effectiveness was due to the numerous drops using m weight.  I wonder how well that would work against the guard?  Anyone know?  I have not tried it against BJJ or Judo


----------



## jobo

Martial D said:


> Discussing how I train personally would be a weird derail to the thread. This isn't about any one individual.
> 
> Also, I'm not sure you know what an anecdote is.


so you have no evidence that your training is in anyway effective ? just like most of the rest of us


----------



## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> In high school I used a short drop instead of picking up my opponent completely off the ground to slam them.  Short drops allowed me to drive my elbow or shoulder into my opponent multiple times and required less  strength to do it. The effectiveness was due to the numerous drops using m weight.  I wonder how well that would work against the guard?  Anyone know?  I have not tried it against BJJ or Judo



That depends on the Guard you're working against. I'm going to make the assumption that you're talking about closed Guard here, because that's the standard Guard.

 The idea that it's easy to stand up while in someone's Guard is the first misconception that I'm seeing in this thread. It takes a lot of power and skill to stand up if someone has a good closed Guard on you. The goal of your standard closed Guard is to control your opponent's posture, and that's exactly what someone will do if you make the mistake of getting in their Guard. I made the mistake when I first started Bjj to stand up while a woman half my size put me in her closed Guard. Not only did I pull a muscle in my lower back, but I also got arm barred for my trouble.

In addition, if they have a good Guard that means that you're going to have to watch every move you make because one mistake can get you into a submission or a sweep. You're simply not going to be able to just impose your will on someone who knows what they're doing while in the closed Guard. This is why passing Guard is an art in of itself.


----------



## Martial D

jobo said:


> so you have no evidence that your training is in anyway effective ? just like most of the rest of us


No, Im not looking to be a YouTube star.

Anyway, the point that seems to continue to evade you is that a style/system is not a person. On the matter of styles and systems, the current climate of competition has already shown what works reliably against resisting opponents and what doesn't. 

And the kicker is those things are in flux, as people innovate variations and  new ways of doing things.

This is how real martial arts evolve, and what separates them from those that cling desperately to traditions, and those that offer 'self defense' techniques that are never realistically tested.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


> That depends on the Guard you're working against. I'm going to make the assumption that you're talking about closed Guard here, because that's the standard Guard.
> 
> The idea that it's easy to stand up while in someone's Guard is the first misconception that I'm seeing in this thread. It takes a lot of power and skill to stand up if someone has a good closed Guard on you. The goal of your standard closed Guard is to control your opponent's posture, and that's exactly what someone will do if you make the mistake of getting in their Guard. I made the mistake when I first started Bjj to stand up while a woman half my size put me in her closed Guard. Not only did I pull a muscle in my lower back, but I also got arm barred for my trouble.
> 
> In addition, if they have a good Guard that means that you're going to have to watch every move you make because one mistake can get you into a submission or a sweep. You're simply not going to be able to just impose your will on someone who knows what they're doing while in the closed Guard. This is why passing Guard is an art in of itself.


I'm not asking about standing up that's that what I meant when I say short drops.  Short drops is what I'm doing with my body not the opponents body.  In what I'm talking about I would only need to lift my opponent a few inches if that much or I'll need only a few inches between the point of impact, usually my elbow or shoulder. It doesn't require me to get to my feet. If I remember correctly when I did it in high school I kept close to the guy I was wrestling.

It was a long time so my memory of the event  could be way off, but what I think I did was to wrap my arms around him as if I was hugging him, This way my hands were behind his back locked by holding one wrist and making a fist. From this position I was able to push up just a few inches if that much and drop him on my fist, wrist or arm, not sure what he landed on specifically but it's whatever I had underneath his body, with each drop I would try to tighten the grip as I drop dead weight.

Long story short he walked away with brushed ribs and cried out in pain.

The only thing I remember was the reason why I did this.  It wasn't a fight or anything, but I was playing football with a bunch of other teens from the neighborhood and i had braces on.  The QB of their team thought it would be funny to throw the football at my mouth and each time it hit me in my mouth my braces would shred my lip.  I think he did it 3 times and then on the forth I knocked the ball away as it came to my face, tackled him any way and on the ground I began to squeeze him as if I was trying to crush his ribs.  He was bigger than me so I use short drops of me lifting him a little and dropping dead weight as I tighten the squeeze as he hit the ground.

I haven't thought of that incident until now and I was just curious if the same thing or something could be done against a closed guard.  All of this didn't require that I get to my feet.  He was taller and bigger


----------



## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not asking about standing up that's that what I meant when I say short drops.  Short drops is what I'm doing with my body not the opponents body.  In what I'm talking about I would only need to lift my opponent a few inches if that much or I'll need only a few inches between the point of impact, usually my elbow or shoulder. It doesn't require me to get to my feet. If I remember correctly when I did it in high school I kept close to the guy I was wrestling.
> 
> It was a long time so my memory of the event  could be way off, but what I think I did was to wrap my arms around him as if I was hugging him, This way my hands were behind his back locked by holding one wrist and making a fist. From this position I was able to push up just a few inches if that much and drop him on my fist, wrist or arm, not sure what he landed on specifically but it's whatever I had underneath his body, with each drop I would try to tighten the grip as I drop dead weight.
> 
> Long story short he walked away with brushed ribs and cried out in pain.
> 
> The only thing I remember was the reason why I did this.  It wasn't a fight or anything, but I was playing football with a bunch of other teens from the neighborhood and i had braces on.  The QB of their team thought it would be funny to throw the football at my mouth and each time it hit me in my mouth my braces would shred my lip.  I think he did it 3 times and then on the forth I knocked the ball away as it came to my face, tackled him any way and on the ground I began to squeeze him as if I was trying to crush his ribs.  He was bigger than me so I use short drops of me lifting him a little and dropping dead weight as I tighten the squeeze as he hit the ground.
> 
> I haven't thought of that incident until now and I was just curious if the same thing or something could be done against a closed guard.  All of this didn't require that I get to my feet.  He was taller and bigger



Yeah, the same problem still arises; Your posture is being controlled, so I'm not seeing how you're going to be able lift the person and bear hug them in Guard (unless you're rolling with a child or something). In addition, as soon as your hand or arms hits the mat, you're entering dangerous territory. One of the goals of the Guard is to get your opponent's hand to hit the mat so that it can be trapped. Once trapped you're opened up to a very wide variety of submissions. A hand or arm smacking the mat is like music to the ears for a Bjjer fighting in Guard.

Also it should be mentioned that another goal of the Guard is to break down your opponent's posture. I was taught that the safest spot in someone's Guard is sitting upright on my heels with my back straight. You coming in for a bear hug actually makes it easier for the person putting the Guard on you to control your upper body.


----------



## jobo

Martial D said:


> No, Im not looking to be a YouTube star.
> 
> Anyway, the point that seems to continue to evade you is that a style/system is not a person. On the matter of styles and systems, the current climate of competition has already shown what works reliably against resisting opponents and what doesn't.
> 
> And the kicker is those things are in flux, as people innovate variations and  new ways of doing things.
> 
> This is how real martial arts evolve, and what separates them from those that cling desperately to traditions, and those that offer 'self defense' techniques that are never realistically tested.


but non of it shows that YOU can make it work, so we have no way of knowing if your system of training is better is better than mine

Do WE ?
we dont even know you train at all apart from a few anecdotes


----------



## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, the same problem still arises; Your posture is being controlled, so I'm not seeing how you're going to be able lift the person and bear hug them in Guard (unless you're rolling with a child or something). In addition, as soon as your hand or arms hits the mat, you're entering dangerous territory. One of the goals of the Guard is to get your opponent's hand to hit the mat so that it can be trapped. Once trapped you're opened up to a very wide variety of submissions. A hand or arm smacking the mat is like music to the ears for a Bjjer fighting in Guard.
> 
> Also it should be mentioned that another goal of the Guard is to break down your opponent's posture. I was taught that the safest spot in someone's Guard is sitting upright on my heels with my back straight. You coming in for a bear hug actually makes it easier for the person putting the Guard on you to control your upper body.


Thanks for the info.  Good thing I didn't try that on a BJJ practitioner. lol


----------



## Martial D

jobo said:


> but non of it shows that YOU can make it work, so we have no way of knowing if your system of training is better is better than mine
> 
> Do WE ?


LOL

Don't you do krav maga?


----------



## jobo

Martial D said:


> LOL
> 
> Don't you do krav maga?


no


----------



## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> Thanks for the info.  Good thing I didn't try that on a BJJ practitioner. lol



This video might help (dude is hilarious too);


----------



## JowGaWolf

@Alan Smithee
@Kung Fu Wang
@gpseymour

Alan this is mainly for you.  It talks about some of the dangers that come with applying joint locks and it may share light on why some people go with the lock in training.  I personally like it because it shows just how little movement is needed to get the lock started.




It talks about your opponent "doing something stupid" in an effort to escape a wrist lock.  My biggest fear when teaching kids wrist locks is that they will play around with it and quickly apply it to their partner and injuring the partner.  Even when I teach adults wrist locks I warn them multiple times,  "do not quickly do this joint lock" and "do not be a smartass, and try to resist it by overpowering it."  Then I tell them, if your partner thinks it's funny to resist it by over powering it, then release the lock.  In general with Joint locks, there's a correct way to escape and a really painful way to escape.

People who train wrist locks for function will tell you the similar warnings like what's in the video and what I stated.   I don't think you would be happy if your training partner broke your wrist. It's been my experience that people will only train stuff like this with people they can trust.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


> This video might help (dude is hilarious too);




Thanks..  I appreciate the time you took to find the video.


----------



## Gweilo

JowGaWolf said:


> Anyone who trains a TMA and can use the techniques, will tell you that the technique will remain but the crisp movie like movements are



Sorry playing catch up, in your opinion, how much of the above statement would you say is
A) down to the actual techniques
B) down to the students phyche in a high pressure situation?


----------



## Gweilo

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Someone dropped his elbow straight down on my heart while I was on the ground. I was almost killed that day. Even today, I still worry about my opponent "elbow dropping".



Is the above statement the technique not being effective, or is it a fear of being hurt ?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Gweilo said:


> Is the above statement the technique not being effective, or is it a fear of being hurt ?


That was my personal experience. How to prevent your opponent from dropping his elbow joint straight down on your body while you are on the bottom and your opponent is on your top? IMO, it's not that easy.

In the following clip, this trick has been played in stand up wrestling during the ancient time. It's very difficult for a judge to tell whether one may do this on purpose, or it is just an accident. This trick can also be used on the ground as well. How to prevent this from happening while you are on the ground and on the bottom?

This is why I'll never use pull guard.

A: You just broke my nose. BJJ is suppose to be a friendly match.
B: Sorry! When you use pull guard on me, I lose balance and I can't control where my elbow suppose to land. It's just an accident. I didn't intend to hurt you.
A: @#$%^&






This is my favor jacket holding position.


----------



## Hanzou

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That was my personal experience. How to prevent your opponent from dropping his elbow joint straight down on your body while you are on the bottom and your opponent is on your top? IMO, it's not that easy.
> 
> In the following clip, this trick has been played in stand up wrestling during the ancient time. It's very difficult for a judge to tell whether one may do this on purpose, or it is just an accident. This trick can also be used on the ground as well. How to prevent this from happening while you are on the ground and on the bottom?
> 
> This is why I'll never use pull guard.
> 
> A: You just broke my nose. BJJ is suppose to be a friendly match.
> B: Sorry! When you use pull guard on me, I lose balance and I can't control where my elbow suppose to land. It's just an accident. I didn't intend to hurt you.
> A: @#$%^&



I think we need to take a step back here and recognize that there are multiple ways to "pull Guard", because there are multiple types of Guards that you can wind up in. Again, I'm assuming here that people are talking about getting pulled into closed Guard. Let it be known that in the current state of Bjj, "Pulling Guard" could mean anything from getting pulled into closed Guard, getting pulled into X Guard, getting pulled into 50/50 Guard, the various types of Jump guards, etc.

For example;







While that pull led into a sweep, there's all sorts of nasty things you can do from that Guard position.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> The thing is you do kind of have to have a backup if your slick move fails anyway. So it is not the end of the world if your slower than 100% wrist lock doesn't take.
> 
> And if you have everything else on point. E.g. the Russian wrist snap. You don't need the lock.
> 
> And you do kind of need these elements to be on point because if you don't they will just clench their fist and you won't get that wristlock.
> 
> Which is what OP was basically describing.


Agreed, on all points. When I teach techniques, I always teach that the entry and control are more important than the finish. At each of those points (really, arbitrarily divided into 3 segments - it's many points along the way), you can choose one of several options. So, when practicing wrist locks, for instance, the focus is on the control that improves the situation. If the wrist lock fails (isn't available), you can just go to another option. If the control fails, you're not in good shape.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> I've seen all of her videos and I'm just amazed at what she gets away with and how people buy into that stuff.   I can only assume that people who take her classes have never been in a real fight either as a kid or an adult.
> 
> I'm not sure in what scenario I would find myself pinned against the wall facing the wall, unless I'm getting arrested.  I run attack scenarios and I've yet been able to pin any of the students against the wall like that.  Seems like something more out of the movies. Maybe someone can shed some light on that.


The pinning against the wall drill might be useful for creating a limit/complication when looking at movement and escapes. Like other drills, it's not so much about whether that scenario mirrors an anticipated scenario so much as whether there's something useful to learn from it. Think of it like an MMA fighter learning to work against the cage. If they've never practiced it, they'll have to learn the advantages and disadvantages on the fly.

That said, what I saw looked like a bunch of beginner drills performed with too much focus on moving to the next drill, rather than doing something in the current drill.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> Not so. At least not in my case.
> 
> In my case it's more like this.
> 
> I have trained with 2 shodan level Aikidoka, and neither one of them could pull off any standing locks on anyone, not even the new guys.
> 
> There is hundreds of hours of sparring footage, in which it doesn't work.
> 
> There are thousands and thousands of recorded MMA and grappling matches in which such things never take place.
> 
> And in fact, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of this sort of thing working in the wild whatsoever.
> 
> That is more than enough to convict in any court of law.


IMO, standing locks are just a way to practice the mechanics of the lock with low risk. For most locks, if the person is standing upright, the lock's not going to be a good choice. Once you've broken their structure enough (which often means a knee touches the ground, or some other big change), the locks are more available. There are some situations where locks become available standing, but anyone with fight training is likely to nullify those. Against the average gumby, they're more likely to show up (according to cops I've trained with).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> The only thing I can say is that maybe someone who knows how to apply it will post video on Youtube.  My perspective comes from my own experience of what I see vs what may be out there.  How many people have we seen spar and actually use Jow Ga techniques?  So when it comes to Aikido, I'm thinking the same thing.  There may be others out there who just haven't posted a video of them sparring.
> 
> I like this one. But unfortunately I don't know enough about Aikido to know if that's what he was doing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if he's actually using it Aikido (in the video above, then that video gives a much different perspective than the video below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing I'm sure about is that Joint locks works, and how it's applied is going to determine reliability.  I don't think it's a bunch of made up Joint locks and arm twists.   I also believe that it's going to be rare to find someone passionate enough to actually learn how to be functional with the system.  Most people rather mix and match systems, which is nothing wrong with doing that. It's just that doing so, may cause a person to give up on the applications of the system instead of trying to figure it out.


I recognize the top video as Aikido. The main difference between the approaches, is that the guy in the bottom video is trying to get to techniques, while the guy in the top video is just controlling the opponent until something shows up. Mind you, no punching in the top video, which might change things up.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> That’s Dan “the Wolfman” Theodore, a BJJ black belt who is on a bit of a crusade to show that certain traditional techniques like the standing wrist locks from Aikido can work. He will be the first to tell you that in order to make them work you need solid grappling/wrestling skills and plenty of live sparring experience.


He's doing a good job, and I agree with that underlying requirement.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> All due respect to Wolfman, but every video I see him in, he's using those "Aikido" techniques on people much smaller and less experienced than him.
> 
> I find the second video much more interesting, because you had two people of about equal size and experience, with an Aikidoka instructor who could do next to nothing against a trained MMA fighter.


The guy in the second video abandons all premise of Aikido in the interaction.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> I could tell he has a passion for it. He enjoys the journey of learning and understanding the techniques he uses.  It's people like him that TMA's need more of.  Someone who is willing to go beyond what is just taught.  Someone who has the passion to understand something through actually trying to use it and understand it.  He wouldn't be as good as he is had he just bought into the talk that Aikido is useless and written it off.
> 
> I don't know if Aikido practitioners have the same problem that I had with Kung Fu, but for me TMA is alway taught from a defense perspective where "attacker is always attacking first".  For me this hyper defensive focus made it really difficult for me to learn Jow Ga.  It wasn't until I started to train from an offensive perspective that things began to click.  I didn't see a lot of what I see now because I was always trying to counter and react.. It's easier for me to do kung fu when my opponent reacts to me.  In general, I think it's easier to know my opponent will react to me than for me to figure out what  he's going to do based on  how I react to him.
> 
> Aikido is always shown as someone attacking the practitioner and in general I think that's just the incorrect mindset for trying to be successful with  TMA in general. I think that what you are seeing is this perspective change which will give the techniques a different look based on how we usually see it in demos


I can't speak to what the original intent was, since I wasn't there, but I think the practice of working from the input of an attack has become exaggerated. IMO, you use all your tools. If you press the attack at least part of the time, they're more likely to respond with something that opens up some of the Aikido approaches. If you just wait and do nothing, they have too much time to pick apart your defense.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> All it takes is a good high school or college wrestler. They will not be able to sweep him.


I've been able to pull that off, and my ground game is mediocre.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> It is not a bold assertion at all. The surface makes a huge difference.


Pavement isn't lava.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> I get it. You claim there are other grappling options to them against a wrestler when there's not a mat. I contend that these are highly idealistic assumptions against someone that works takedowns all the bloody time and is equally skilled at what he is doing as the jiuijitsu guy is on the ground. And yes, even if you introduce techniques that he is less familiar with.
> 
> There will always be outliers but my money is on the wrestler. That is all!


Wrestlers are not immune to takedowns. In fact, the ruleset they train for causes them to make opportunities for takedowns they're not used to. Are they harder to take down than some folks? Yep. Not harder than getting a takedown on a similarly skilled Judoka, IMO.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> If you are looking for that flowing look that Aikido has, to show up in a fight, then I'm going to tell you that you aren't going to see that. Anyone who trains a TMA and can use the techniques, will tell you that the technique will remain but the crisp movie like movements are going to be the first victim in martial arts application.


I think this is where a lot of folks (I think we're all guilty of it at times) say, "Okay, so that's kind of the same technique, but it's not X system, clearly." Some drills don't look as much like the application (exaggeration of principles, limitation of movement, etc.). Some systems use more of those drills. Oddly, even when things don't look the same, they often feel more or less the same to the person doing them.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> I think for most people, for it to be considered "effective" it needs to be shown at the highest levels of martial arts.
> 
> That would be MMA.


I think you're confusing "highly effective" or "most effective" with "effective". There are techniques that work reasonably when there's a skill differential in your favor, but have better alternatives for working against more highly skilled folks.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> If anecdotes were reliable all TMAs would be filled to the brim with trained killers doing 'too deadly for the cage' techniques.
> 
> Once you require other forms of evidence that narrative quickly evaporates.


Someone's personal experience isn't anecdotal to them. Just saying.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you have any clip to show that?
> 
> In the following picture, when white uses leg to lift blue, blue can also use his foot to step into white's groin (symmetry). This is one example that technique X can be used to counter technique X itself.


Really, not so much. Blue's feet were on the ground, pushed down by the force of white's weight dropping. That's what sets up the throw.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> @Alan Smithee
> @Kung Fu Wang
> @gpseymour
> 
> Alan this is mainly for you.  It talks about some of the dangers that come with applying joint locks and it may share light on why some people go with the lock in training.  I personally like it because it shows just how little movement is needed to get the lock started.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It talks about your opponent "doing something stupid" in an effort to escape a wrist lock.  My biggest fear when teaching kids wrist locks is that they will play around with it and quickly apply it to their partner and injuring the partner.  Even when I teach adults wrist locks I warn them multiple times,  "do not quickly do this joint lock" and "do not be a smartass, and try to resist it by overpowering it."  Then I tell them, if your partner thinks it's funny to resist it by over powering it, then release the lock.  In general with Joint locks, there's a correct way to escape and a really painful way to escape.
> 
> People who train wrist locks for function will tell you the similar warnings like what's in the video and what I stated.   I don't think you would be happy if your training partner broke your wrist. It's been my experience that people will only train stuff like this with people they can trust.


I find it interesting that he calls the second one "Aikido style", when literally all of the locks he showed are in Aikido.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> Really, not so much. Blue's feet were on the ground, pushed down by the force of white's weight dropping. That's what sets up the throw.


The issue is timing. When your opponent puts his foot on your belly, he just exposes his groin. This give you a chance to put your foot into his groin. Your groin attack prevent him from his body rotation.

This is a traditional concept to use a throw to counter itself.

For example, when your opponent applies foot sweep on you, he is standing on one leg and you can sweep his rooting leg. His foot sweep just put him in single leg balance. This will give you a good foot sweep opportunity. Of course your foot sweep has to reach to his rooting leg before his foot sweeping leg can reach to your leg. That's "timing".

Other examples are:

- front cut counter front cut.
- hip throw counter hip throw.
- twist spring counter twist spring.
- leg lift counter leg lift.
- foot sweep counter foot sweep.
- pull guard counter pull guard.
- ...

If you know how to play a GO game, you should understand that if you just land your spot on a symmetry position, you cannot loss (except there is only 1 center spot). 

Here are examples that when you apply hip throw, it gives your opponent to use hip throw to counter you too.










​


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> When I teach techniques, I always teach that the entry and control are more important than the finish.


I always believe if I can put my opponent's body into a 30 degree angle, the gravity will do the rest of the job for me, and I don't have to finish the throw. This way, my opponent doesn't have to deal with 200 impact on the ground daily. My training session can last longer.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> I think for most people, for it to be considered "effective" it needs to be shown at the highest levels of martial arts.


Some techniques require

- more body strength than others (such as shin bite).
- better timing than others (such as foot sweep).

A shin bite takes less timing than a foot sweep does. But shin bite require extra shin bone training. Which one is more effective? It's just a trade off IMO.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> I think you're confusing "highly effective" or "most effective" with "effective". There are techniques that work reasonably when there's a skill differential in your favor, but have better alternatives for working against more highly skilled folks.


Agree! A hip throw is very easy to be countered by an experienced opponent. But a leg lift is very difficult to be countered even by an experienced opponent.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The issue is timing. When your opponent puts his foot on your belly, he just exposes his groin. This give you a chance to put your foot into his groin. Your groin attack prevent him from his body rotation.
> 
> This is a traditional concept to use a throw to counter itself.
> 
> For example, when your opponent applies foot sweep on you, he is standing on one leg and you can sweep his rooting leg. His foot sweep just put him in single leg balance. This will give you a good foot sweep opportunity. Of course your foot sweep has to reach to his rooting leg before his foot sweeping leg can reach to your leg. That's "timing".
> 
> Other examples are:
> 
> - front cut counter front cut.
> - hip throw counter hip throw.
> - twist spring counter twist spring.
> - leg lift counter leg lift.
> - foot sweep counter foot sweep.
> - pull guard counter pull guard.
> - ...
> 
> If you know how to play a GO game, you should understand that if you just land your spot on a symmetry position, you cannot loss (except there is only 1 center spot).
> 
> Here are examples that when you apply hip throw, it gives your opponent to use hip throw to counter you too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


If uke can get his foot onto your groin (or anything else), then you shouldn't be doing tomoe nage. The throw depends upon a circumstance that would make that foot placement all but impossible. From the way you describe it, it sounds like the guy's on his back reaching up with a foot, but that's not how the throw is used.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I always believe if I can put my opponent's body into a 30 degree angle, the gravity will do the rest of the job for me, and I don't have to finish the throw. This way, my opponent doesn't have to deal with 200 impact on the ground daily. My training session can last longer.


I don't know. I've seen some pretty startling recoveries in Judo matches. 30 degrees is pretty far, but I'd have to see where their feet are and the distribution of weight.


----------



## Martial D

gpseymour said:


> Someone's personal experience isn't anecdotal to them. Just saying.



No. But 'personal experience' is often just a longer way to say 'belief'.

This is why anecdote is worthless, because people can believe a lot of nonsense.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> No. But 'personal experience' is often just a longer way to say 'belief'.
> 
> This is why anecdote is worthless, because people can believe a lot of nonsense.


That’s a handy way to dismiss the experience of those who’ve actually needed their MA training outside of competition.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> If uke can get his foot onto your groin (or anything else), then you shouldn't be doing tomoe nage. The throw depends upon a circumstance that would make that foot placement all but impossible. From the way you describe it, it sounds like the guy's on his back reaching up with a foot, but that's not how the throw is used.


You should be able to test this against your training partner and draw your own conclusion.

I don't have a clip or that. But here is a foot sweep against foot sweep (symmetry). To use pull guard to against pull guard is the same concept. The key is the timing.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You should be able to test this against your training partner and draw your own conclusion.
> 
> I don't have a clip or that. But here is a foot sweep against foot sweep (symmetry). To use pull guard to against pull guard is the same concept. The key is the timing.


Tomoe  nage isn’t the same as pulling guard, though I suspect there are some shared principles of set-up. I’ve used tomoe nage several times. It was always a surprise to the recipient, and left no room for foot-lifting in the moment.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> I’ve used tomoe nage several times. It was always a surprise to the recipient, and left no room for foot-lifting in the moment.


Do you also train how to counter tomoe nage?

I'm very interested to test how to use a technique to counter itself. One time my opponent threw a jab and I also threw jab. Believe it or not, our fists meet together. I didn't know that could truly happen. It happened.

When you try to use your right leg to inner hook my left leg, I can use my right leg to knee lift your right leg. I then use my right leg to inner hook your left leg. Another example of to use inner hook to against inner hook.


----------



## Alan Smithee

gpseymour said:


> Wrestlers are not immune to takedowns. In fact, the ruleset they train for causes them to make opportunities for takedowns they're not used to. Are they harder to take down than some folks? Yep. Not harder than getting a takedown on a similarly skilled Judoka, IMO.



Believe it or not, more takedowns are allowed in BJJ than Judo. Leg takedowns with the hand or arms are banned in Judo since 2010. The next generation of Olympic Judokas won't know anything about them (training for their rule set to win Gold) unless they crosstrain or are in an old school dojo.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Alan Smithee said:


> Leg takedowns with the hand or arms are banned in Judo since 2010.


Not only arm on the leg throw, even leg on leg throw such as the "leg twisting" throw had been banned by Judo long before that.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Gweilo said:


> Sorry playing catch up, in your opinion, how much of the above statement would you say is
> A) down to the actual techniques
> B) down to the students phyche in a high pressure situation?



My response is going to be kind of long because sometimes the simple answer I give get taken out of context by some of the jokers in this group. So I'm trying to add some context to it.

So for A I'm going to make the following assumptions.
1.*The system has a minimum of foundation of basic function*. Meaning you have to have something in the system that can be made functional if it's not already functional.  This is not a functional fighting system here, but you can do some fine tuning and fixing structure and you'll have some solid stuff to work with.  It sounds crazy, but when you look at their structure for throwing punching it's a lot better that what we see from some of that  TMA vs MMA stuff from China.  Stick a pad in front of these people, make some minor corrections and you'll have a nice little workout for building punching foundations and footwork foundations.





*So my assumption is that the system has the bare minimum structure in which function can be built in some sort of shape or form*,

2. *The system must have some techniques that will look similar to techniques or mechanics found in other systems.* No matter what we do, we are al limited by the mechanics of the human body. 2 arms 2 legs a spine and a head.  There's only so many variations of body mechanics that are available before things start looking the same or similar.  If the system is totally unique in everything, then there is a 99% chance that it not real. It's like walking, there's a specific structure that must be maintained for efficient walking.
This may seem silly as well, but it's very practical, which is why these animals walking looks familiar to us. We all operate within similar mechanics and structure.





And some structures of punching and kicking is going to be more efficient than others, but the functional stuff will pretty much follow the same rules of body mechanics, structure and balance for animals with  A head, 2 arms, 2 legs and a spine.  Again, this is why we see jabs, sprawls, foot sweeps, single leg take down attempts, in foot work in this video.





This is the sweep (screenshot from video above)





This is the single leg take-down attempt (screen shot from video above)






So above is the context of how I see martial arts.  Now the short answers based on a system having the characteristics of what was stated above.
.
*A) down to the actual techniques*.  -  My thought is that a technique just needs to be functional and efficient which will determine it's effectiveness.  People get beat downs from basic kicking and punching  When it comes to more advanced techniques, these techniques are designed to exploit specific human mechanics, structure, and human behavior. The more a technique exploits these areas the more important the technique becomes.  When you start exploiting specifics then the technique needs to be solid, as that technique is only designed for s specific timing and body position.  You can't just "thow stuff on the wall and hope it sticks."  This would be about 30%  of what's required for using a technique.  I've shown examples of fighting between animals that resembles some of the stuff we do in marital arts. Their stuff is functional and it doesn't look pretty like what we see in the movies. Looking fancy is not a requirement  for something to be functional.  Nor is it a good marker of functionality.  Pretty forms do not make, Pretty fights. 

*B) Down to the students phyche in a high pressure situation?* This is 70% or maybe even higher at 90% depending on what type of technique you are trying to pull off. The more basic the technique the less it plays on your phyche and the less it will be affected by pressure.  My guess is that it's because basics are what people are comfortable with doing and is something that we generally trust more than anything else.  The more advance a technique is the more you have to trust that technique no matter if you think you are going to get pounded in the face for trying it.  You have to trust it 100% without doubt.  And you have understand when  and in what position the technique is functional for you.  Unfortunately the only way you can determine this is through trial and error.

You literally have to trust the technique 100% even though you know that you will fail at using it the first 20 or 30 times.  You have to believe 100% that the the problem isn't the technique but your understanding of it.  This is a difficult thing to do, especially if you are doing hard sparring, which is why I don't try to learn new stuff during hard sparring sessions.  It's better to make mistakes in light sparring sessions so that it doesn't play on your mind and corrupt your trust in what you are training in.  


Sorry I had to be wordy about it,  I was just trying to kill some of the nonsense that I might get from others from what I post.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> The pinning against the wall drill might be useful for creating a limit/complication when looking at movement and escapes. Like other drills, it's not so much about whether that scenario mirrors an anticipated scenario so much as whether there's something useful to learn from it. Think of it like an MMA fighter learning to work against the cage. If they've never practiced it, they'll have to learn the advantages and disadvantages on the fly.
> 
> That said, what I saw looked like a bunch of beginner drills performed with too much focus on moving to the next drill, rather than doing something in the current drill.


 In a self-defense situation I can't ever see my self turning my back to an attacker in a way what my face is  pinned to the wall like that.  If I was a bad guy and wanted to put someone in that position then I'm not thinking about pinning them.  I'm thinking about ramming their head into the wall, or crashing their bodies into the wall.  Me using the wall to help inflict pain. 

I don't know what I would learn for it, other than I failed at preventing myself from being put in such a vulnerable position.  What happened to always faces your opponent or attacker?  I tried to find video footage of real attacks and I couldn't find one where the person was facing the wall and pressed against it.  I'm going go out on a limb and that that something like that is probably hard to do most people will quickly turn to face the attacker or crumble to the ground.  Unless they are trying to learn how to fight against an arrest, I don't see how that would help.   They would have been better of putting her in the corner and have her fight her way out of the corner.





Let me know what one would learn from such a position other than. "I shouldn't have turned my back" lol.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> Pavement isn't lava.


ha ha ha.. totally unexpected.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> Oddly, even when things don't look the same, they often feel more or less the same to the person doing them.


  That's how you know you got something right. I like that feeling. Then I look at the video and the video doesn't look like what I felt lol.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> No. But 'personal experience' is often just a longer way to say 'belief'


This doesn't make sense to me.

How do you separate what you do, to the point where it's not a personal experience.?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you also train how to counter tomoe nage?
> 
> I'm very interested to test how to use a technique to counter itself. One time my opponent threw a jab and I also threw jab. Believe it or not, our fists meet together. I didn't know that could truly happen. It happened.
> 
> When you try to use your right leg to inner hook my left leg, I can use my right leg to knee lift your right leg. I then use my right leg to inner hook your left leg. Another example of to use inner hook to against inner hook.


Of course I train to counter. The counter is different at each stage (during entry, control, execution, and follow-up).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Alan Smithee said:


> Believe it or not, more takedowns are allowed in BJJ than Judo. Leg takedowns with the hand or arms are banned in Judo since 2010. The next generation of Olympic Judokas won't know anything about them (training for their rule set to win Gold) unless they crosstrain or are in an old school dojo.


You say “believe it or not” as if that should be surprising. To anyone passingly familiar with the topic, it is not. 

Those training solely for Judo competition (rather than those training Judo more roundly) will have more gaps. This is true of any system.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> In a self-defense situation I can't ever see my self turning my back to an attacker in a way what my face is  pinned to the wall like that.  If I was a bad guy and wanted to put someone in that position then I'm not thinking about pinning them.  I'm thinking about ramming their head into the wall, or crashing their bodies into the wall.  Me using the wall to help inflict pain.
> 
> I don't know what I would learn for it, other than I failed at preventing myself from being put in such a vulnerable position.  What happened to always faces your opponent or attacker?  I tried to find video footage of real attacks and I couldn't find one where the person was facing the wall and pressed against it.  I'm going go out on a limb and that that something like that is probably hard to do most people will quickly turn to face the attacker or crumble to the ground.  Unless they are trying to learn how to fight against an arrest, I don't see how that would help.   They would have been better of putting her in the corner and have her fight her way out of the corner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me know what one would learn from such a position other than. "I shouldn't have turned my back" lol.


For starters, I don’t assume I get to decide where and how the attack starts. We do part of our training under the assumption that our awareness may fail us. So, having some guy shove you against a wall from behind to start the fight seems advantageous for that guy. 
And, as I said before, some of what you learn is just how to deal with restrictions. Say some guy tries to bash your head as you said. If you manage to control that, you’re still at a wall with him behind you. It’s a drill that forces you to work differently than if you’re in an open area, similar to drills where you have to do your best while staying inside a small box (taped on the floor).


----------



## Martial D

gpseymour said:


> That’s a handy way to dismiss the experience of those who’ve actually needed their MA training outside of competition.


Only when it's equally handy that there is no external evidence outside of story time to support ANY premise, not just as it relates to this.

It's called reasonable standards of evidence.


----------



## Martial D

JowGaWolf said:


> This doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> How do you separate what you do, to the point where it's not a personal experience.?



Sigh.

Ignoring that red herring question, I'll ask you one;

If I told you I just got back from a weekend on Mars , but I don't have anything but my word, and you have video evidence, from 30 different angles, that I was at home posting on martial talk the whole weekend.

Would you believe it?


----------



## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> You say “believe it or not” as if that should be surprising. To anyone passingly familiar with the topic, it is not.
> 
> Those training solely for Judo competition (rather than those training Judo more roundly) will have more gaps. This is true of any system.



Unfortunately it's very hard to practice Judo holistically because a lot of dojos don't want their students getting "bad habits" that won't help them in competition. The latest round of rules I've seen in Judo competition are legitimately insane and really serve no purpose except to stop wrestlers and BJJ guys from participating. 

Judo clubs live and die by their connections to comps and governing bodies, and there's quite a few black belts (especially in the states) who have nowhere to go as Judo clubs close their doors. I'm seeing a lot of Judo guys migrating over to Bjj to teach, compete, and become black belts, and just like wrestling, BJJ welcomes Judo guys with open arms. Judo's loss is Bjj's gain.


----------



## Alan Smithee

gpseymour said:


> You say “believe it or not” as if that should be surprising. To anyone passingly familiar with the topic, it is not.
> 
> Those training solely for Judo competition (rather than those training Judo more roundly) will have more gaps. This is true of any system.



The vast majority of Judo schools are sport schools


----------



## Alan Smithee

gpseymour said:


> You say “believe it or not” as if that should be surprising.



Considering what you wrote to me, it's seemed as if you were not aware of it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> Sigh.
> 
> Ignoring that red herring question, I'll ask you one;
> 
> If I told you I just got back from a weekend on Mars , but I don't have anything but my word, and you have video evidence, from 30 different angles, that I was at home posting on martial talk the whole weekend.
> 
> Would you believe it?


That’s a pretty blatant argument ad absurdum. There’s a difference between wild stories and the experience of a cop on the job.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Unfortunately it's very hard to practice Judo holistically because a lot of dojos don't want their students getting "bad habits" that won't help them in competition. The latest round of rules I've seen in Judo competition are legitimately insane and really serve no purpose except to stop wrestlers and BJJ guys from participating.
> 
> Judo clubs live and die by their connections to comps and governing bodies, and there's quite a few black belts (especially in the states) who have nowhere to go as Judo clubs close their doors. I'm seeing a lot of Judo guys migrating over to Bjj to teach, compete, and become black belts, and just like wrestling, BJJ welcomes Judo guys with open arms. Judo's loss is Bjj's gain.


Changes in Judo rules - and the over-adherence to those rules inside the dojo - is a failing in Judo over time. I’m rather hoping some of the BJJ mindset bleeds back to Judo.


----------



## JP3

gpseymour said:


> Changes in Judo rules - and the over-adherence to those rules inside the dojo - is a failing in Judo over time. I’m rather hoping some of the BJJ mindset bleeds back to Judo.


A few years back a movement was starting against the "then) "new" judo competition rules. Those new rules were rumored to be initiated int he international governing bodies because so many of the traditional competition powerhouse nations (i.e. Japan) were losing to all these wrestlers & BJJ people working single-leg nd double-leg takedowns, leg picks, etc. All of those were already "in" judo (right there in the syllabus, if you go looking) but people really didn't use them because the traditional starting position (i.e. standard kumikata grip position) rendered it a bit weird, uncomfortable &/or awkward to attack that way.

Anyway, brief digression over, I forget which US organization was rebelling against the new rules, which had the obvious and glaring removal of techniques... and stuck them right back in.  AAU, maybe? Anyway, they changed up scoring as well, going to a point system which promoted more action for spectators, and less liklihood that a match would just be... over.  It was interesting. But... the big associations did something about rank and testings etc., and I stopped hearing about it here in Houston.

How did you guys get on this topic, anyway? I read page 1, then skipped to page 24 and it's completely different topic shift. Interesting to me how that happens.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> For starters, I don’t assume I get to decide where and how the attack starts. We do part of our training under the assumption that our awareness may fail us. So, having some guy shove you against a wall from behind to start the fight seems advantageous for that guy.
> And, as I said before, some of what you learn is just how to deal with restrictions. Say some guy tries to bash your head as you said. If you manage to control that, you’re still at a wall with him behind you. It’s a drill that forces you to work differently than if you’re in an open area, similar to drills where you have to do your best while staying inside a small box (taped on the floor).


While you cannot make assumptions on where and how you can get attacked, there are always restrictions and opportunities that you can manage by how you position yourself in that environment.  How you position yourself in a given environment will either increase, decrease, or totally eliminate the chances of certain attacks occurring.  This is what you manage.   The environment itself also helps determine the possibility of attack.

Am I more likely to get in a fist fight at a museum or at a bar?  I'm I more likely to be ambushed in a mall or in the parking lot.

I understand what you mean by learning certain things from certain drills, I just don't think that the one in that video fall under that and it was definitely not presented as drill in which you learn something else.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> If I told you I just got back from a weekend on Mars , but I don't have anything but my word, and you have video evidence, from 30 different angles, that I was at home posting on martial talk the whole weekend.
> 
> Would you believe it?


  I still don't know what you are getting at.  I don't see how this is related to "personal experience"
If you told me that you took a weekend on Mars then only only needs to ask  "when did you leave?"  You'll ask this question so you can measure the amount of time that it takes to get to mars with the amount of time that the person said they left.  It doesn't matter if I only have your word.  If your time gone does not match the number of hours to travel to Mars, then you would have failed the most general verification.

I've spent 6 months in Australia.  Right now at this point you only have my word to go on and my reputation for telling the truth or for lying.  If I'm known for lying then this is probably a lie.  If I'm known for being fairly honest and truthful, then it's a good chance that this is true.  You can ask me questions about it, but you wouldn't know if those answers were true unless you have been to Australia.  Sometimes the "lack of evidence" is more about the other persons "lack of knowledge"  Meaning that person has no knowledge or personal experience of Australia in which he/she can use to verify what I'm telling you.

If I tell you I can pull off a wrist lock and that it works, but I only verbally described how I did it.  Then the only thing you have to verify if I'm telling you the truth is your "personal experience" successfully pulling off a wrist lock.  If you don't have  any knowledge of how to do it, then you can't verify.  It's not because I lack evidence, it's because you lack the knowledge or personal experience in which you would compare what you did to be successful with what I'm saying.

This why some of use are comparing similar things at random and we understand exactly what the other person is referring to, because it's something we have experienced either by doing or receiving.  There are certain things that people will only know through experience.  This is how people tend to come back with the same or similar stories about that experience.


----------



## JowGaWolf

JP3 said:


> How did you guys get on this topic, anyway? I read page 1, then skipped to page 24 and it's completely different topic shift. Interesting to me how that happens.


 lol. such is the reality of this group.  Champions of topic shifts lol.


----------



## Martial D

gpseymour said:


> That’s a pretty blatant argument ad absurdum. There’s a difference between wild stories and the experience of a cop on the job.


But it isn't. What it is is an analogy.

I have no way of differentiating wishful thinking/intentional bs/willful exaggerating from someone's actual experience barring external verification/evidence. 

My claim to have been to Mars, despite evidence to the contrary, is epistemologically equal to someone's claim that they win fights with TMA training and methods(ie kata/gi cooperative choreography) despite evidence that rarely to never happens.

Logic 101


----------



## Martial D

JowGaWolf said:


> I still don't know what you are getting at.  I don't see how this is related to "personal experience"
> If you told me that you took a weekend on Mars then only only needs to ask  "when did you leave?"  You'll ask this question so you can measure the amount of time that it takes to get to mars with the amount of time that the person said they left.  It doesn't matter if I only have your word.  If your time gone does not match the number of hours to travel to Mars, then you would have failed the most general verification.
> 
> I've spent 6 months in Australia.  Right now at this point you only have my word to go on and my reputation for telling the truth or for lying.  If I'm known for lying then this is probably a lie.  If I'm known for being fairly honest and truthful, then it's a good chance that this is true.  You can ask me questions about it, but you wouldn't know if those answers were true unless you have been to Australia.  Sometimes the "lack of evidence" is more about the other persons "lack of knowledge"  Meaning that person has no knowledge or personal experience of Australia in which he/she can use to verify what I'm telling you.
> 
> If I tell you I can pull off a wrist lock and that it works, but I only verbally described how I did it.  Then the only thing you have to verify if I'm telling you the truth is your "personal experience" successfully pulling off a wrist lock.  If you don't have  any knowledge of how to do it, then you can't verify.  It's not because I lack evidence, it's because you lack the knowledge or personal experience in which you would compare what you did to be successful with what I'm saying.
> 
> This why some of use are comparing similar things at random and we understand exactly what the other person is referring to, because it's something we have experienced either by doing or receiving.  There are certain things that people will only know through experience.  This is how people tend to come back with the same or similar stories about that experience.


Maybe you went to Australia, maybe you didn't. I already have pretty sound evidence that people do, in fact, go to Australia, so I have no reason to question that you did.

Now if I was convinced by a similar amount of evidence that people couldn't go to Australia(let's say it got nuked and was completely irradiated), but you claimed to have gone there anyway, I would need something more than your word to believe it.

This is far more the latter than the former.


----------



## jobo

Martial D said:


> But it isn't. What it is is an analogy.
> 
> I have no way of differentiating wishful thinking/intentional bs/willful exaggerating from someone's actual experience barring external verification/evidence.
> 
> My claim to have been to Mars, despite evidence to the contrary, is epistemologically equal to someone's claim that they win fights with TMA training and methods(ie kata/gi cooperative choreography) despite evidence that rarely to never happens.
> 
> Logic 101


no, there isn't any evidence that it rarely happens, there maybe an absence of evidence that it happens a lot, but there's an absence of evidence that MMA or BJJ works often as well outside of the ''ring''

because no one is compiling evidence


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> That’s a pretty blatant argument ad absurdum. There’s a difference between wild stories and the experience of a cop on the job.



When you develop a culture of evidence through stories. You encourage people to talk themselves up. 

Police are as susceptible as anyone else for this.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> When you develop a culture of evidence through stories. You encourage people to talk themselves up.
> 
> Police are as susceptible as anyone else for this.


that has an element of truth, but evidence through first hand testimony is the bed rock of the criminal justice system, so you cant just dismiss it unless you can suggest a more reliable form of available evidence, to which both ourselves and the criminal justice system could benefit

even in this day and age the vast majority of things don't happen on camera, particularly violent assaults where criminals with even a modicum of sense avoid cameras


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> Maybe you went to Australia, maybe you didn't. I already have pretty sound evidence that people do, in fact, go to Australia, so I have no reason to question that you did.


 So you assume what I've done or where I've been based on the evidence of what other people do?.



Martial D said:


> My claim to have been to Mars, despite evidence to the contrary, is epistemologically equal to someone's claim that they win fights with TMA training and methods(ie kata/gi cooperative choreography) despite evidence that rarely to never happens.


This comment makes it all to clear now why you don't understand some of the things I talk about.  You have already made up your mind about the value and effectiveness of TMA and that it can't win a fight.

To you the realistic possibility of someone winning a TMA = the reality that you spent a weekend on Mars.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> I would need something more than your word to believe it.
> 
> This is far more the latter than the former.


  You would only need proof that winning a fight using TMA is possible,  If you personally lack TMA skills that would allow you to win a fight.  If have the personal experience of winning a fighting using TMA skills then you would personally know from experience that it's possible.

That's what I'm reading from this.  You lack functional TMA skills.


----------



## Martial D

jobo said:


> no, there isn't any evidence that it rarely happens, there maybe an absence of evidence that it happens a lot, but there's an absence of evidence that MMA or BJJ works often as well outside of the ''ring''
> 
> because no one is compiling evidence


Aside from the hundreds of videos of guys trying their TMA against actual fighters and getting quickly pummeled, I guess.


----------



## Martial D

JowGaWolf said:


> You would only need proof that winning a fight using TMA is possible,  If you personally lack TMA skills that would allow you to win a fight.  If have the personal experience of winning a fighting using TMA skills then you would personally know from experience that it's possible.
> 
> That's what I'm reading from this.  You lack functional TMA skills.



You have entered the realm of willful ignorance now. Once ignorance is willful, no amount of logic can assail it.

My points are there for those that are willing to digest them.


----------



## Martial D

JowGaWolf said:


> So you assume what I've done or where I've been based on the evidence of what other people do?.



/R/whoosh



> This comment makes it all to clear now why you don't understand some of the things I talk about.  You have already made up your mind about the value and effectiveness of TMA and that it can't win a fight.
> 
> To you the realistic possibility of someone winning a TMA = the reality that you spent a weekend on Mars.


You should really take a basic logic course.

It will literally change your whole world.


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> that has an element of truth, but evidence through first hand testimony is the bed rock of the criminal justice system, so you cant just dismiss it unless you can suggest a more reliable form of available evidence, to which both ourselves and the criminal justice system could benefit
> 
> even in this day and age the vast majority of things don't happen on camera, particularly violent assaults where criminals with even a modicum of sense avoid cameras


 That's because first hand testimony usually has similarities and consistencies to other victimization and conflicts.  It's difficult to fake things that people feel when they are a victim of something.  The more questions that are asked and answered, the more the lie will fall apart.  Is it 100% fool proof or accurate?  Of course not, but it's more accurate than not.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> You have entered the realm of willful ignorance now. Once ignorance is willful, no amount of logic can assail it.
> 
> My points are there for those that are willing to digest them.


Dude I'm still trying to figure what you are getting at. You are who brought up Mars, and that TMA can't win fights.  You brought that up not me.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> You should really take a basic logic course.
> 
> It will literally change your whole world.


  I had 2 years of college level logic so I'm pretty sure that's not the issue.  But now you get use your logic and determine if I'm lying to you or not.


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> that has an element of truth, but evidence through first hand testimony is the bed rock of the criminal justice system, so you cant just dismiss it unless you can suggest a more reliable form of available evidence, to which both ourselves and the criminal justice system could benefit
> 
> even in this day and age the vast majority of things don't happen on camera, particularly violent assaults where criminals with even a modicum of sense avoid cameras



Which is why I have such a low opinion of self defence martial arts.

People are working of such a terrible source matter that the standard is that people will lie. 

Exactly like court by the way.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JP3 said:


> A few years back a movement was starting against the "then) "new" judo competition rules. Those new rules were rumored to be initiated int he international governing bodies because so many of the traditional competition powerhouse nations (i.e. Japan) were losing to all these wrestlers & BJJ people working single-leg nd double-leg takedowns, leg picks, etc. All of those were already "in" judo (right there in the syllabus, if you go looking) but people really didn't use them because the traditional starting position (i.e. standard kumikata grip position) rendered it a bit weird, uncomfortable &/or awkward to attack that way.
> 
> Anyway, brief digression over, I forget which US organization was rebelling against the new rules, which had the obvious and glaring removal of techniques... and stuck them right back in.  AAU, maybe? Anyway, they changed up scoring as well, going to a point system which promoted more action for spectators, and less liklihood that a match would just be... over.  It was interesting. But... the big associations did something about rank and testings etc., and I stopped hearing about it here in Houston.
> 
> How did you guys get on this topic, anyway? I read page 1, then skipped to page 24 and it's completely different topic shift. Interesting to me how that happens.


I don't even remember how we got here.

That's the kind of thing that drives me nuts about associations (and it's by no means unique to Judo). Too often, they simply decide their approach is the only good approach and quash others, rather than letting others exist (since if theirs was actually best, it would likely not be adversely affected).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> While you cannot make assumptions on where and how you can get attacked, there are always restrictions and opportunities that you can manage by how you position yourself in that environment.  How you position yourself in a given environment will either increase, decrease, or totally eliminate the chances of certain attacks occurring.  This is what you manage.   The environment itself also helps determine the possibility of attack.
> 
> Am I more likely to get in a fist fight at a museum or at a bar?  I'm I more likely to be ambushed in a mall or in the parking lot.
> 
> I understand what you mean by learning certain things from certain drills, I just don't think that the one in that video fall under that and it was definitely not presented as drill in which you learn something else.


I agree that how it was used in the video wasn't a drill. That was my point a few posts back - it looks like they took some potentially useful drills and just ran them in chaos mode.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> But it isn't. What it is is an analogy.
> 
> I have no way of differentiating wishful thinking/intentional bs/willful exaggerating from someone's actual experience barring external verification/evidence.
> 
> My claim to have been to Mars, despite evidence to the contrary, is epistemologically equal to someone's claim that they win fights with TMA training and methods(ie kata/gi cooperative choreography) despite evidence that rarely to never happens.
> 
> Logic 101


It's not an analogy, because the two aren't analogous. You've taken one concept (someone being able to perform pretty much any of a range of techniques in the wild) and compared it with another concept (someone being able to take a trip to Mars) that has no real equivalency. Hence ad absurdum.

If you'd used "I went to Atlanta", that would be analogous.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Which is why I have such a low opinion of self defence martial arts.
> 
> People are working of such a terrible source matter that the standard is that people will lie.
> 
> Exactly like court by the way.


You have a low opinion of them because you have a stereotyped view of them and group them all into that stereotype. You've displayed that particular cognitive bias over and over, even making claims about how I teach and train without any knowledge.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> When you develop a culture of evidence through stories. You encourage people to talk themselves up.
> 
> Police are as susceptible as anyone else for this.



You once again go for the binary situation. It's not binary. Hearing first-hand reports supplements other sources. And you're assuming some sort of culture set-up that I'm not sure exists.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> Aside from the hundreds of videos of guys trying their TMA against actual fighters and getting quickly pummeled, I guess.


What about the TMA guys who've fought in MMA? I mean, there were a fair few in the early years, and they seemed to have some effective material. There are fewer now, as there has been more blending of arts and more specialization of training to the context.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> What about the TMA guys who've fought in MMA? I mean, there were a fair few in the early years, and they seemed to have some effective material. There are fewer now, as there has been more blending of arts and more specialization of training to the context.


There may be fewer TMA ONLY fighters there but TMA techniques are used all the time. 





Backfist, spinning backfists, elbow strikes, round house, spinning back kicks, front heel kicks, upper cuts, hooks, big wheel punches like what is seen in Hung ga, Choy li Fut, Jow Ga, Low leg kicks, the oblique kick, axe kicks, spinning round house kicks, sweeps, spinning elbows, side kicks, flying knees, and front snap kicks are all found in TMA and seen in MMA.  If we were to take away all TMA techniques out of MMA how much would be left to fight with?

If that video isn't evidence, then I begin to wonder what people consider TMA and what they visualize as TMA.  Are they expecting something like Movie Martial arts where the guy easily takes out a bunch of people with a TMA system?  Is this what they are expecting to see in an MMA fight?  If so then there is confusion between movie fighting with TMA and real fighting with TMA.


----------



## Randy Pio

JowGaWolf said:


> Are they expecting something like Movie Martial arts where the guy easily takes out a bunch of people with a TMA system? Is this what they are expecting to see in an MMA fight?




Yes, 100%.  But on both sides- new practitioners expect the ability to do this and spectators expect to see it.

-RP


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> You once again go for the binary situation. It's not binary. Hearing first-hand reports supplements other sources. And you're assuming some sort of culture set-up that I'm not sure exists.



What other source have we been shown in this instance?


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> You have a low opinion of them because you have a stereotyped view of them and group them all into that stereotype. You've displayed that particular cognitive bias over and over, even making claims about how I teach and train without any knowledge.



Not at all. Just the closer I looked the more inconsistencies I found. 

You could refute any claim I make with evidence at any time.

I am confused why you don't. It just ads weight to any claim I make.


----------



## Martial D

gpseymour said:


> It's not an analogy, because the two aren't analogous. You've taken one concept (someone being able to perform pretty much any of a range of techniques in the wild) and compared it with another concept (someone being able to take a trip to Mars) that has no real equivalency. Hence ad absurdum.
> 
> If you'd used "I went to Atlanta", that would be analogous.



a·nal·o·gy

/əˈnaləjē/
Learn to pronounce
_noun_

a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

You're welcome.


----------



## Martial D

gpseymour said:


> What about the TMA guys who've fought in MMA? I mean, there were a fair few in the early years, and they seemed to have some effective material. There are fewer now, as there has been more blending of arts and more specialization of training to the context.



Yes, and some of those early fights were hilarious flail fests, no different from guys that were completely untrained(and in fact, some untrained guys dominated TMA guys..tank Abbot comes to mind) and every single one of them got pwned by BJJ, just BJJ, that isn't even good by today's standards.

And what happened then? Competition pushed the game forward. The lack of being tied to outdated methods and training that never worked as intended to begin with didn't hold it back the way it holds TMA back. Their training became realistic.

While modern martial arts and artists continue to be refined and improved every day, though whatever is shown to work, TMA guys continue to do the same junk they've been at since the 1950s or longer, under a culture of change=bad tradition=good

And now the divide between this and that is so wide that it's barely even the same subject anymore.


----------



## Hanzou

Martial D said:


> Yes, and some of those early fights were hilarious flail fests, no different from guys that were completely untrained(and in fact, some untrained guys dominated TMA guys..tank Abbot comes to mind) and every single one of them got pwned by BJJ, just BJJ, that isn't even good by today's standards.
> 
> And what happened then? Competition pushed the game forward. The lack of being tied to outdated methods and training that never worked as intended to begin with didn't hold it back the way it holds TMA back. Their training became realistic.
> 
> While modern martial arts and artists continue to be refined and improved every day, though whatever is shown to work, TMA guys continue to do the same junk they've been at since the 1950s or longer, under a culture of change=bad tradition=good
> 
> And now the divide between this and that is so wide that it's barely even the same subject anymore.



I'm forced to agree with this overall assessment. The interesting thing is that fighters who specialize in Bjj and were elite level in sport Bjj are coming back into vogue now and have very impressive MMA records. Kron Gracie, Mckenzie Dern, Ryan Hall, and Garry Tonon just to name a few. That's something that really shouldn't be possible at this stage in MMA's evolution, but it's happening.

Meanwhile we're seeing pretty consistent videos coming out of China of Kung Fu stylists getting utterly destroyed by sub-par MMA fighters. I mean, I really don't know how many examples we need until we finally just accept reality.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> What other source have we been shown in this instance?


This is a VERY old discussion. I'll refer to things. You'll dismiss them because they don't fit your dogmatic view.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> a·nal·o·gy
> 
> /əˈnaləjē/
> Learn to pronounce
> _noun_
> 
> a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
> 
> You're welcome.


Actually pretty sad. You know better and can debate better. You know you're practicing a logical fallacy. It's like if someone walks into a busy street and won't admit buses exist.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> Yes, and some of those early fights were hilarious flail fests, no different from guys that were completely untrained(and in fact, some untrained guys dominated TMA guys..tank Abbot comes to mind) and every single one of them got pwned by BJJ, just BJJ, that isn't even good by today's standards.
> 
> And what happened then? Competition pushed the game forward. The lack of being tied to outdated methods and training that never worked as intended to begin with didn't hold it back the way it holds TMA back. Their training became realistic.
> 
> While modern martial arts and artists continue to be refined and improved every day, though whatever is shown to work, TMA guys continue to do the same junk they've been at since the 1950s or longer, under a culture of change=bad tradition=good
> 
> And now the divide between this and that is so wide that it's barely even the same subject anymore.


So, for something to be TMA, it must never progress. Now I understand your view.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> I'm forced to agree with this overall assessment. The interesting thing is that fighters who specialize in Bjj and were elite level in sport Bjj are coming back into vogue now and have very impressive MMA records. Kron Gracie, Mckenzie Dern, Ryan Hall, and Garry Tonon just to name a few. That's something that really shouldn't be possible at this stage in MMA's evolution, but it's happening.
> 
> Meanwhile we're seeing pretty consistent videos coming out of China of Kung Fu stylists getting utterly destroyed by sub-par MMA fighters. I mean, I really don't know how many examples we need until we finally just accept reality.


BJJ has evolved with MMA, and seems to continue to train things that work outside the BJJ competitions. Most styles don't do that as well.


----------



## Martial D

Hanzou said:


> I'm forced to agree with this overall assessment. The interesting thing is that fighters who specialize in Bjj and were elite level in sport Bjj are coming back into vogue now and have very impressive MMA records. Kron Gracie, Mckenzie Dern, Ryan Hall, and Garry Tonon just to name a few. That's something that really shouldn't be possible at this stage in MMA's evolution, but it's happening.
> 
> Meanwhile we're seeing pretty consistent videos coming out of China of Kung Fu stylists getting utterly destroyed by sub-par MMA fighters. I mean, I really don't know how many examples we need until we finally just accept reality.



Ehh. BJJ is an action style. It is still relevant because it's all about innovation. It adds up that it should still be relevant.

If everyone worshipped at the altar of Gracie, and just tried to emulate what he did as if it were Canon. (As many TMA do) BJJ would be antiquated and very much less relevant today.


----------



## jobo

Martial D said:


> Aside from the hundreds of videos of guys trying their TMA against actual fighters and getting quickly pummeled, I guess.


but you said claim to have used it in a FIGHT, if you mean ring fight, then that's only a tiny % of all the fights in the world . so you cant assume that has any relevance out the very tiny spectrum of ring fights

So were the evidence you claim that TMA is rarely effective in FIGHTS


----------



## Martial D

gpseymour said:


> Actually pretty sad. You know better and can debate better. You know you're practicing a logical fallacy. It's like if someone walks into a busy street and won't admit buses exist.


You claimed my analogy wasn't an analogy. I thought maybe you didn't know what it meant as it patently was one thing compared to another. That what the word means.

And no, my analogy said exactly what I meant to say.  I realize you don't agree, but as a guy that sells TMA for a living why would you?

Also, reducto ad absurdum isn't a logical fallacy , it's a way of breaking them down. But this isn't that.


----------



## Martial D

jobo said:


> but you said claim to have used it in a FIGHT, if you mean ring fight, then that's only a tiny % of all the fights in the world . so you cant assume that has any relevance out the very tiny spectrum of ring fights
> 
> So were the evidence you claim that TMA is rarely effective in FIGHTS


You do realize cameras work everywhere right?


----------



## jobo

Martial D said:


> You do realize cameras work everywhere right?


Ok so what percentage of all the fights in the world do YOU have video of  to base this assessment on ?


----------



## Martial D

jobo said:


> Ok so what percentage of all the fights in the world do YOU have video of  to base this assessment on ?


Hundreds if not thousands of hours of footage yielding one sided results.

A sample size more than large enough to reach a reasonable conclusion.


----------



## jobo

Martial D said:


> Hundreds if not thousands of hours of footage yielding one sided results.
> 
> A sample size more than large enough to reach a reasonable conclusion.


 you've watch thousands of hours of you tube fights ? you really need to get out more, your whole life is passing you by as you stare at you tube

Ok il ask the question again,

how do you know what the sample size you've viewed is ? unless you know the total number fights its impossible to say

How have you ascertained that what you have viewed is a representative sample. as you don't know to a factor if it hundreds or thousands of hours of hours you've viewed it does seem unlikely that any thought has gone into this at all and the number of hours is irrelevant, its the number of fights that is the key measure

I really shouldn't have to teach people basic statistical analysis


----------



## Martial D

jobo said:


> you've watch thousands of hours of you tube fights ? you really need to get out more
> 
> Ok il ask the question again,
> 
> how do you know what the sample size you've viewed is ? unless you know the total number fights its impossible to say
> 
> How have you ascertained that what you have viewed is a representative sample. as you don't know to a factor if it hundreds or thousands of hours of hours you've viewed it does seem unlikely that any thought has gone into this at all and the number of hours is irrelevant, its the number of fights that is the key measure
> 
> I really shouldn't have to teach people basic statistical analysis


No. Not just YouTube, I study the game wherever I can. But yes, YouTube too. 

As for your  take on 'statistical analysis'..anyone that understands how that works that is reading this just facepalmed hard. If I need to be taught further I think I'll look for someone a tad more qualified, no offense


----------



## jobo

Martial D said:


> No. Not just YouTube, I study the game wherever I can. But yes, YouTube too.
> 
> As for your  take on 'statistical analysis'..anyone that understands how that works that is reading this just facepalmed hard. If I need to be taught further I think I'll look for someone a tad more qualified, no offense


What game , we are talking to the largest % about street fights. which clearly are the majority and are not a '' game''

if your just . as seems likely, basing this on sports fight then its automatically not representative.

but your refusing to actually provided any statistics to back up your claim,

JUST ANECDOTES of all the hours you've wasted


----------



## JowGaWolf

Randy Pio said:


> Yes, 100%.  But on both sides- new practitioners expect the ability to do this and spectators expect to see it.
> 
> -RP


 I guess they will just have to be disappointed then if that's what TMA is to them then it'll never be functional.


----------



## Martial D

jobo said:


> What game , we are talking to the largest % about street fights. which clearly are the majority and are not a '' game''
> 
> if your just . as seems likely, basing this on sports fight then its automatically not representative.
> 
> but your refusing to actually provided any statistics to back up your claim,
> 
> JUST ANECDOTES of all the hours you've wasted


The evidence is there for everyone, not just me.

Anyone can practice a TMA for 20+ years like I have, and then test it through years of MMA style training as I have, or done the requisite mat time and sparring time to get a feel of what sort of things work in reality and which just...don't..as I have.

Anyone with the inclination to understand what they are saying before they speak.

. .just as someone can do none of those things, and still voice an opinion.

This isn't about me, or you.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> So, for something to be TMA, it must never progress. Now I understand your view.


If that's what's going on, then that's a misconception about TMA.  TMA has always changed and progress and changed.  One only needs to walk back through the origins of a system to see this occur.  If that's the understanding, then any discussion about TMA being functional is not going to go anywhere.


----------



## JowGaWolf

What TMA did you train for 20+ years?


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> Anyone can practice a TMA for 20+ years like I have,


  What TMA did you train for 20 years?


----------



## jobo

Martial D said:


> The evidence is there for everyone, not just me.
> 
> Anyone can practice a TMA for 20+ years like I have, and then test it through years of MMA style training as I have, or done the requisite mat time and sparring time to get a feel of what sort of things work in reality and which just...don't..as I have.
> 
> Anyone with the inclination to understand what they are saying before they speak.
> 
> . .just as someone can do none of those things, and still voice an opinion.
> 
> This isn't about me, or you.


No its about the claim you made that there is evidence TMA RARELY works in a fight

and all your giving is anecdotes.

I have personal testimony( anecdotes ) that TMA works very effectively in street fights.

You have personal testimony( anecdotes) that you've watch a lot of you tube

In the absence of you actually providing the evidence you claim exists, Then these two divergent points of view are equal as they both faithfully represent our experiences.

Though mine is based on first hand experience and yours on vicarious thrills


----------



## Martial D

JowGaWolf said:


> What TMA did you train for 20 years?


Wing Chun. My post history has all of the details, I tend to mention it.


----------



## Martial D

jobo said:


> No its about the claim you made that there is evidence TMA RARELY works in a fight
> 
> and all your giving is anecdotes.
> 
> I have personal testimony( anecdotes ) that TMA works very effectively in street fights.
> 
> You have personal testimony( anecdotes) that you've watch a lot of you tube
> 
> In the absence of you actually providing the evidence you claim exists, Then these two divergent points of view are equal as they both faithfully represent our experiences.
> 
> Though mine is based on first hand experience and yours on vicarious thrills


Ok, pretend that the last 30 years of modern martial arts don't exist, and that new footage of traditional 'masters' getting wrecked by mediocre MMA fighters isn't being released every single day.

That's cool with me. Believe how you will.

In our previous conversations you have argued that punching power comes from the arm, and that you've never put on gloves. That tells all I need to know about the value of what you might believe on this subject.


----------



## jobo

Martial D said:


> Ok, pretend that the last 30 years of modern martial arts don't exist, and that new footage of traditional 'masters' getting wrecked by mediocre MMA fighters isn't being released every single day.
> 
> 
> 
> That's cool with me.


I'm not pretending anything, 

your point was it rarely worked in a fight and you had evidence of that, which it now seems you haven't 

what you do have is a miss staken view that challenge fights have any relivance to it's real world application in street attacks. if you were making a case that if you were attacked by a mediocre MMa fighter you might be in a spot of bother, you may have a point, but it's seems that's not the point your making at all. rather it's very unlikely to work on n any set of circumstances, which is just with out evidence at all


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> This is a VERY old discussion. I'll refer to things. You'll dismiss them because they don't fit your dogmatic view.



Hey look over there is that a diversion?

I assume there was no other source in this case then.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> I'm forced to agree with this overall assessment. The interesting thing is that fighters who specialize in Bjj and were elite level in sport Bjj are coming back into vogue now and have very impressive MMA records. Kron Gracie, Mckenzie Dern, Ryan Hall, and Garry Tonon just to name a few. That's something that really shouldn't be possible at this stage in MMA's evolution, but it's happening.
> 
> Meanwhile we're seeing pretty consistent videos coming out of China of Kung Fu stylists getting utterly destroyed by sub-par MMA fighters. I mean, I really don't know how many examples we need until we finally just accept reality.



Police effectively tying up criminals on the street with the Beej?

The ability to go and spar a coach from a school to find out if he has the tools. So that they have a much better peer review program.


----------



## Martial D

jobo said:


> I'm not pretending anything,
> 
> your point was it rarely worked in a fight and you had evidence of that, which it now seems you haven't
> 
> what you do have is a miss staken view that challenge fights have any relivance to it's real world application in street attacks. if you were making a case that if you were attacked by a mediocre MMa fighter you might be in a spot of bother, you may have a point, but it's seems that's not the point your making at all. rather it's very unlikely to work on n any set of circumstances, which is just with out evidence at all


So basically you are making the argument for Russell's Teapot.


----------



## jobo

Martial D said:


> So basically you are making the argument for Russell's Teapot.


no mate, im just asking for the evidence you said you had, if you want to quote Bertrand Russell that's fine. But you said you had it and now your trying to weasel out. I'm not sure bertrand said anything about weasels


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> You claimed my analogy wasn't an analogy. I thought maybe you didn't know what it meant as it patently was one thing compared to another. That what the word means.
> 
> And no, my analogy said exactly what I meant to say.  I realize you don't agree, but as a guy that sells TMA for a living why would you?
> 
> Also, reducto ad absurdum isn't a logical fallacy , it's a way of breaking them down. But this isn't that.


You might want to re-examine your bias. I don’t sell TMA for a living. I don’t actually make a dime from teaching these days, and have never made more than a few dollars a month. It’s a hobby. 

And many in TMA would argue I’m not very T.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Hey look over there is that a diversion?
> 
> I assume there was no other source in this case then.


It’s a badger with a gun.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Police effectively tying up criminals on the street with the Beej?
> 
> The ability to go and spar a coach from a school to find out if he has the tools. So that they have a much better peer review program.


You can’t use the police episodes. That’s just stories.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> You can’t use the police episodes. That’s just stories.



There is footage. Quite a bit of it these days.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> Wing Chun. My post history has all of the details, I tend to mention it.


So what about wing chun doesn't work for you?  Other than the narrow stances that some lineages use, Wing Chun seems to be fairly straight forward without any complicated motions compared to some of the other kun fu systems out their.  What was it that you couldn't get to work?


----------



## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> So what about wing chun doesn't work for you?  Other than the narrow stances that some lineages use, Wing Chun seems to be fairly straight forward without any complicated motions compared to some of the other kun fu systems out their.  What was it that you couldn't get to work?



It appears that WC wants to be viewed as an effective martial art, but boxing, Muay Thai, and MMA has pretty much prevented that from happening. Now you have this duality of WC exponents either pushing to adapt WC for modern fighting, or creating the ludicrous argument that the rules of competitive fighting neuter WC for “reasons”, and deciding to rigidly stick to traditional methods. I could imagine someone growing tired of that duality (and the lineage crap) and simply jumping ship to something else.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> It appears that WC wants to be viewed as an effective martial art, but boxing, Muay Thai, and MMA has pretty much prevented that from happening. Now you have this duality of WC exponents either pushing to adapt WC for modern fighting, or creating the ludicrous argument that the rules of competitive fighting neuter WC for “reasons”, and deciding to rigidly stick to traditional methods. I could imagine someone growing tired of that duality (and the lineage crap) and simply jumping ship to something else.



The big issue you have is there are not that many good enough exponents of kung fu to make it worth most people's while.

So you never really get that super functional grounding you need to be good. 

So say you want to learn striking. Your thai fighter will probably have a title. You boxer is golden gloves but your wc has a certificate his instructor gave him and maby bashed some fool at the pub. 

If you remove style from that equation and just looked at the best guy. It will almost never be kung fu.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> The big issue you have is there are not that many good enough exponents of kung fu to make it worth most people's while.
> 
> So you never really get that super functional grounding you need to be good.
> 
> So say you want to learn striking. Your thai fighter will probably have a title. You boxer is golden gloves but your wc has a certificate his instructor gave him and maby bashed some fool at the pub.
> 
> If you remove style from that equation and just looked at the best guy. It will almost never be kung fu.



Good points, but you also have this going on;










Which is a complete and utter denial of reality. The best being that strikers can’t generate enough power to end a fight because of the octagon’s floor, despite numerous cases of MMA fighters getting knocked out in stand up. That’s in the first video, and it’s utterly hilarious. If I heard my sifu making that excuse I’d walk out immediately.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


> It appears that WC wants to be viewed as an effective martial art, but boxing, Muay Thai, and MMA has pretty much prevented that from happening. Now you have this duality of WC exponents either pushing to adapt WC for modern fighting, or creating the ludicrous argument that the rules of competitive fighting neuter WC for “reasons”, and deciding to rigidly stick to traditional methods. I could imagine someone growing tired of that duality (and the lineage crap) and simply jumping ship to something else.


Adapting seems natural to me.  If Wing Chun was truly designed for close quarter space, say like a linear alley way, a room, or some other some other space restricted area like a crowded street then I can see where the narrow stance and footwork would come in handy, but when there is space then the footwork needs to be able to adapt.  This is true for all fighting systems.

Below is a picture from the 1900 China. If a fight were to kick off in this environment, then you would want to beat your opponent as quickly as possible while taking advantage of limited space, before people started to get out of the way.  If you were walking down an alley in this environment, then you would have the same challenges of limited space. Both scenario make getting the fight over as fast as possible would require forward aggressiveness which is common in Wing Chun practice.  I can't visualize a scenario where Wing Chun waits to be attacked.  The narrow stance almost demands you go after the opponent fully dedicated.  The Chi Sao and Bong Sao and trapping movements seems like something that would work when you are jamming punches with forward movement.  







If my assumptions are correct then Wing Chun would have no other choice but to adapt when there is open space.  With open spaces people are now able to cut angles and literally be on your flank.  Now take downs would be able to take advantage of footwork designed for limited space.  If someone wanted to fight in a less congested area then their footwork and defense would have to naturally adjust.  I know that some Wing Chun schools fail to adapt in this way, but I don't think that's a System issue.  I think that's a Purity Issue and not a fight logic issue.  Fight logic would dictate that we adapt techniques according to the environment we are in.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Good points, but you also have this going on;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which is a complete and utter denial of reality. The best being that strikers can’t generate enough power to end a fight because of the octagon’s floor, despite numerous cases of MMA fighters getting knocked out in stand up. That’s in the first video, and it’s utterly hilarious. If I heard my sifu making that excuse I’d walk out immediately.



It is very much like how historical medicine was mis applied and for about the same reasons.

People had all of this anecdotal evidence but not enough information to make the correct conclusions.

In their head it makes sense but add a few more facts and it is shown as pretty silly.

And people do this all the time. If you win a fight wearing your lucky underwear, without testing the veracity of your anecdotal evidence you could firmly believe that lucky underwear works in the street.

Same with martial arts.

Dowsing is a good example.





It doesn't work. But there is a ton of anecdotal evidence that say it does.


----------



## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> Adapting seems natural to me.  If Wing Chun was truly designed for close quarter space, say like a linear alley way, a room, or some other some other space restricted area like a crowded street then I can see where the narrow stance and footwork would come in handy, but when there is space then the footwork needs to be able to adapt.  This is true for all fighting systems.
> 
> Below is a picture from the 1900 China. If a fight were to kick off in this environment, then you would want to beat your opponent as quickly as possible while taking advantage of limited space, before people started to get out of the way.  If you were walking down an alley in this environment, then you would have the same challenges of limited space. Both scenario make getting the fight over as fast as possible would require forward aggressiveness which is common in Wing Chun practice.  I can't visualize a scenario where Wing Chun waits to be attacked.  The narrow stance almost demands you go after the opponent fully dedicated.  The Chi Sao and Bong Sao and trapping movements seems like something that would work when you are jamming punches with forward movement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If my assumptions are correct then Wing Chun would have no other choice but to adapt when there is open space.  With open spaces people are now able to cut angles and literally be on your flank.  Now take downs would be able to take advantage of footwork designed for limited space.  If someone wanted to fight in a less congested area then their footwork and defense would have to naturally adjust.  I know that some Wing Chun schools fail to adapt in this way, but I don't think that's a System issue.  I think that's a Purity Issue and not a fight logic issue.  Fight logic would dictate that we adapt techniques according to the environment we are in.



Fight logic would also dictate if there's a massive hole in what you're doing, you need to fill the hole or your ship is going to sink.

There appears to be some very large holes in the Wing Chun system. I think the problem is that if you fill those holes, will you still have Wing Chun or will you lose it completely? I have seen attempts to fill those holes with WC solutions, and they just dont work.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> There appears to be some very large holes in the Wing Chun system.


What do you think those holes may be?


----------



## drop bear

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What do you think those holes may be?



We can go back to sport evidence  and suggest their striking doesn't really compare well. 

They use the argument that they are denied vital striking.  But they don't  have evidence they can out vital strike anyone. 

We can see this evidence on video.

Otherwise lack of head movement, fighting at only one range, constantly taking one hand away blocking and punching, not physically conditioning for the sort of fight they engage in. 

There is a list.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

drop bear said:


> constantly taking one hand away blocking and punching,


IMO, the lacking of clinch training can be an issue.


----------



## Martial D

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What do you think those holes may be?



I wouldn't say there are holes in wing Chun(as it pertains to reality) so much as you can use it to FILL one or two holes(such as, sensitivity while handfighting/pommelingfor position in the clinch)

There is really nothing else it does that you can't get a way better version of elsewhere.

Such is the case with everything that isn't already in MMA. MMA is what it is and has become what it has become through absorbing everything that works from all sources. The chances are if it's not already there it's because it's garbage.


----------



## Martial D

I'm just gonna leave this here


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> Such is the case with everything that isn't already in MMA. MMA is what it is and has become what it has become through absorbing everything that works from all sources.


 To an certain extent.  For the most part the fighters in MMA are going to pick the technique that works best for them.  Some of the fighters have the flexibility and ability to kick high so they do do it.  Others do not have that skill set to kick high, so they don't do it.  The oblique kick is another good example, how many people in MMA actually use it in comparison to other stuff that is widely used.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that just because it's not in MMA it's not effective. How long was MMA around before we started seeing the effective use of the Oblique kick?  Like alot of stuff found in MMA, that's a TMA technique that has been around longer than MMA has existed.  But it took a long time before we saw it being used.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> To an certain extent.  For the most part the fighters in MMA are going to pick the technique that works best for them.  Some of the fighters have the flexibility and ability to kick high so they do do it.  Others do not have that skill set to kick high, so they don't do it.  The oblique kick is another good example, how many people in MMA actually use it in comparison to other stuff that is widely used.
> 
> I wouldn't go as far as to say that just because it's not in MMA it's not effective. How long was MMA around before we started seeing the effective use of the Oblique kick?  Like alot of stuff found in MMA, that's a TMA technique that has been around longer than MMA has existed.  But it took a long time before we saw it being used.



It is a muay thai technique.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

JowGaWolf said:


> How long was MMA around


Before the term MMA was known, Sanda was popular in Taiwan during the 80th. For those who wanted to compete Sanda, they had to cross train either Judo, or SC.

Here is a clip to show that it's a big disadvantage for anybody who doesn't know the throwing art.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> It is a muay thai technique.


What is a muay thai technique?


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> What is a muay thai technique?



Oblique kicks. It has been a sport oriented technique for ever.






There is no suddenly MMA has pulled this kick from TMA.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> Oblique kicks. It has been a sport oriented technique for ever.


  That technique actually existed before Muay Thai became a sport and it's not a Muay Thai only technique.  You can find it among many different TMA systems.  Muay Thai the sport can be traced back to the 1700's.  Before Muay Thai  the sport there was Muay Boran.
I can literally show the Jow Ga  equivalent of almost all of these techniques from the video below in Jow Ga forms.  Jow Ga is made from 3 fighting systems,  one of which is Hung Ga,  that was created in the 17th century as well.





Both of these Time lines are more than enough to classify the system as a TMA.  I have already shown in video that this kick can target more than just the knee and can be thrown at various heights and various stance levels.  I even did it the kick on a hill.  Where this kick lands, is insignificant as it doesn't effect the mechanics that are required.to actually do this kick.

Techniques that were effect back then are often found in other TMA systems, either as the same technique or a variation of that technique.  I can also show the oblique kick in my Jow ga form.

Not only can I show you, I can also perform it that part of the form from a functional fighting posture vs performance form.  Again where this kick is thrown does not matter because be it abdomen high, knee, or shin, it requires the the same mechanics.   Think of the oblique kick in the same way that you think of the jab. More than one system has it and uses it


----------



## JowGaWolf

Muay thai traditional dance.  Looks like TMA to me


----------



## Martial D

JowGaWolf said:


> What is a muay thai technique?


The oblique kick


----------



## dvcochran

drop bear said:


> Oblique kicks. It has been a sport oriented technique for ever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no suddenly MMA has pulled this kick from TMA.


Then where would you say they came from?


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> Then where would you say they came from?


If I'm reading this as I think you mean it, then this is what I'm saying.  Stuff doesn't just pop out of the blue.  "Hey lets make a new sport.  Lets call it Muay Thai and lets make a bunch of stuff to do in it.  Like... say we'll do a kick that looks like this, or a punch that looks like this.  If we want to use elbows, what should that look like."   Combat sports often come from functional combat skills that existed before the sport.

The sport part was usually just a safer way to train for the combat.  Sort of like how animals play fight which actually helps them prepare the skills that they will use in a real fight.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> That technique actually existed before Muay Thai became a sport and it's not a Muay Thai only technique.  You can find it among many different TMA systems.  Muay Thai the sport can be traced back to the 1700's.  Before Muay Thai  the sport there was Muay Boran.
> I can literally show the Jow Ga  equivalent of almost all of these techniques from the video below in Jow Ga forms.  Jow Ga is made from 3 fighting systems,  one of which is Hung Ga,  that was created in the 17th century as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both of these Time lines are more than enough to classify the system as a TMA.  I have already shown in video that this kick can target more than just the knee and can be thrown at various heights and various stance levels.  I even did it the kick on a hill.  Where this kick lands, is insignificant as it doesn't effect the mechanics that are required.to actually do this kick.
> 
> Techniques that were effect back then are often found in other TMA systems, either as the same technique or a variation of that technique.  I can also show the oblique kick in my Jow ga form.
> 
> Not only can I show you, I can also perform it that part of the form from a functional fighting posture vs performance form.  Again where this kick is thrown does not matter because be it abdomen high, knee, or shin, it requires the the same mechanics.   Think of the oblique kick in the same way that you think of the jab. More than one system has it and uses it



So when you say MMA is discovering the validity of techniques from TMA. You are talking about Muay Thai?

As if MMA hasn't been drawing from Muay Thai from the outset. Or muay thai schools like Tiger haven't been churning out MMA champions.

The is also this obscure TMA called wrestling that MMA has just discovered  the validity of


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> So when you say MMA is discovering the validity of techniques from TMA. You are talking about Muay Thai?


 In some cases yes, depending on the technique that is being used.  In other cases no, because the technique isn't found in Muay Thai but in another system.  I use the term TMA because it's general enough to include different systems without having to name each one.

I could spend time and point out individual systems like those who use long fist. For example, some of these punches are found in long fist systems but not in Muay Thai.  Muay Thai isn't a long fist system so I wouldn't include Muay thai for a specific punching technique that it doesn't have.





Or I can just keep it general and just say TMA. Especially since the MMA fanboys prefer to speak in general terms by saying TMA techniques don't work in MMA environments.


drop bear said:


> As if MMA hasn't been drawing from Muay Thai from the outset


What is pulled from Muay Thai is very limited in comparison to all the techniques that make up Muay Thai.  Most MMA fighters just do basic kicking and kneeing techniques (Kicks to the legs and inner thigh). Those can be learned easily and quickly in comparison to the oblique kick. Which is probably why we don't see more people use it, even though it's effective.   It just takes too long to learn it and to be effective with it.

This is the same with not seeing many sweeps in MMA.  Sweeps are effective but they aren't easy to learn and even harder to time.  Once you get over those to obstacles then it's easy.  But it takes time to do this and not everyone learns the sweeps at the same rate.  Sweeping is an advance technique, sweeping front leg is like supper advance because you have to drive the power differently.







drop bear said:


> The is also this obscure TMA called wrestling that MMA has just discovered the validity of


 Wrestling is a system not a technique.  You should know me be better than that.. I'm not one of those fantasy martial arts people, that just make stuff off the top of their head.  I don't know how many times I've said that I spar to learn.  I don't just do what is easy and throw away the difficult stuff.  I work out a technique until I can figure out how to use it correctly.  I don't know how many times I've stated that I enjoy talking to other people how they do certain techniques in their system because it helps me find out how to apply the same or similar technique in my system.  I put a lot of thought time and research into what I do, what I train, and how it applies to going against other systems.

Not only have I've shown sparring videos of my skill set, I've done videos to share how I apply certain techniques to help clarify mechanics. If you want to share knowledge fine.  If you just want to make smart remarks about something that I've never stated. Then you are just wasting your time.

You should know me better than that.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> Oblique kicks. It has been a sport oriented technique for ever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no suddenly MMA has pulled this kick from TMA.


Name another MMA fighter, other than Jon Jones, who successfully does the Oblique kick.  Lets see how many you can name.  Keep in mind just how long Jon Jones has been doing the technique in MMA so I expect to see a good list of other fighters known for using it.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> Name another MMA fighter, other than Jon Jones, who successfully does the Oblique kick.  Lets see how many you can name.  Keep in mind just how long Jon Jones has been doing the technique in MMA so I expect to see a good list of other fighters known for using it.



Kyle noke

Holly holms threw one against Ronda Rousey pretty much off the bat.

Royce Gracie was mad keen for a knee kick.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> Kyle noke
> 
> Holly holms threw one against Ronda Rousey pretty much off the bat.
> 
> Royce Gracie was mad keen for a knee kick.


That's the side kick to the knee, not the oblique kick which uses the rear leg and turns the foot outward.  2 different mechanics.


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> If I'm reading this as I think you mean it, then this is what I'm saying.  Stuff doesn't just pop out of the blue.  "Hey lets make a new sport.  Lets call it Muay Thai and lets make a bunch of stuff to do in it.  Like... say we'll do a kick that looks like this, or a punch that looks like this.  If we want to use elbows, what should that look like."   Combat sports often come from functional combat skills that existed before the sport.
> 
> The sport part was usually just a safer way to train for the combat.  Sort of like how animals play fight which actually helps them prepare the skills that they will use in a real fight.


Agree. I was just asking @drop bear where he thought the MMA Oblique kick came from. I have not clue who actually created the kick but it most certainly originated from TMA.


----------



## Martial D

JowGaWolf said:


> To an certain extent.  For the most part the fighters in MMA are going to pick the technique that works best for them.  Some of the fighters have the flexibility and ability to kick high so they do do it.  Others do not have that skill set to kick high, so they don't do it.  The oblique kick is another good example, how many people in MMA actually use it in comparison to other stuff that is widely used.
> 
> I wouldn't go as far as to say that just because it's not in MMA it's not effective. How long was MMA around before we started seeing the effective use of the Oblique kick?  Like alot of stuff found in MMA, that's a TMA technique that has been around longer than MMA has existed.  But it took a long time before we saw it being used.


Sure, innovation still happens. The thing is, the guys doing it are the top level MMA guys, that have such a robust understanding of how the mechanics of fighting work that they are able to make viable tweaks and improvements. What is not happening is innovation outside of this circle.

MMA is one of those strange terms, like 'science', that people tend to try to slap concrete edges on where they don't really fit. People tend to view 'science' as this objective thing when it's really just a term from the sum total of all of our knowledge and the reproducible ways of getting to it.

So too is MMA, rather than a fixed thing, the sum total of our reproducible knowledge of how to do a thing(in this case unarmed combat). 

For decades it has been drawing from everywhere, flowing to the path of least resistance.

Muay Thai wasn't chosen an a base for MMA striking, it was adopted because Muay Thai strikers were beating everyone.

Wrestling and jui jitsu likewise weren't 'selected'. Wrestlers and BJJ guys were dominating in the beginning, so people were forced to learn them or get dominated. It was a natural progression

If say, Wing Chun guys were dominating the early years before arts started mixing, you'd see people doing it today. Same goes for any other 'style' that failed to make the cut.

I personally started doing MMA seriously about three years ago now, with the intention of reworking my WC to be viable. Yet, the more I learned, the more I realized that every WC solution was straight up inferior in practice to what was already there.

Trap the hands? Low percentage, probably eat a fist..better to clinch.

Chain punch blast? Inferior power and range to a simple boxing 1 1 2 or 1 2 3.

Shift and pivot? Faster and safer just to step offline.

Etc etc.


----------



## drop bear

dvcochran said:


> Agree. I was just asking @drop bear where he thought the MMA Oblique kick came from. I have not clue who actually created the kick but it most certainly originated from TMA.



Muay Thai?

They definitely do it and it is a very common mma base.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> That's the side kick to the knee, not the oblique kick which uses the rear leg and turns the foot outward.  2 different mechanics.



John Jones does both.
Anyway holly Holmes


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> There is footage. Quite a bit of it these days.


Funny how you just dismiss videos that don't fit your narrative, but quickly post those that support it. You've long apparently confused brand loyalty with objectivism (which might not even be a word, so I might be the confused one here). Fortunately, you've chosen a decent brand for your loyalty - probably by being objective at the time.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Funny how you just dismiss videos that don't fit your narrative, but quickly post those that support it. You've long apparently confused brand loyalty with objectivism (which might not even be a word, so I might be the confused one here). Fortunately, you've chosen a decent brand for your loyalty - probably by being objective at the time.



Which video have I dismissed?

And no. I am working objectively. I don't think BJJ is the best system for handling offenders. It just has the most evidence.

If you wanted to take a style discussion and add a bunch of tactical considerations then I would suggest folk wrestling. Because you fight to be on top and fight to stand up which is more applicable.


Otherwise there is a lot of videos that confirm bjj working in the street.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> Adapting seems natural to me.  If Wing Chun was truly designed for close quarter space, say like a linear alley way, a room, or some other some other space restricted area like a crowded street then I can see where the narrow stance and footwork would come in handy, but when there is space then the footwork needs to be able to adapt.  This is true for all fighting systems.
> 
> Below is a picture from the 1900 China. If a fight were to kick off in this environment, then you would want to beat your opponent as quickly as possible while taking advantage of limited space, before people started to get out of the way.  If you were walking down an alley in this environment, then you would have the same challenges of limited space. Both scenario make getting the fight over as fast as possible would require forward aggressiveness which is common in Wing Chun practice.  I can't visualize a scenario where Wing Chun waits to be attacked.  The narrow stance almost demands you go after the opponent fully dedicated.  The Chi Sao and Bong Sao and trapping movements seems like something that would work when you are jamming punches with forward movement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If my assumptions are correct then Wing Chun would have no other choice but to adapt when there is open space.  With open spaces people are now able to cut angles and literally be on your flank.  Now take downs would be able to take advantage of footwork designed for limited space.  If someone wanted to fight in a less congested area then their footwork and defense would have to naturally adjust.  I know that some Wing Chun schools fail to adapt in this way, but I don't think that's a System issue.  I think that's a Purity Issue and not a fight logic issue.  Fight logic would dictate that we adapt techniques according to the environment we are in.


I sometimes wonder if some of the narrow stance influence is later-life instructors. Because of my knees, I have significantly narrower stances most of the time than I recommend to students. I get away with it because I'm technically adept enough on some techniques, and know that I'm not on others (so either deal with the discomfort of the lower stance, or avoid using the technique much).

It's not really even a theory, but a wondering.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> The chances are if it's not already there it's because it's garbage.


That's overly binary. There's a lot that's less efficient than the typical MMA approach, but still produces results. Just not results at the level needed to stay competitive, given time and energy constraints.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Oblique kicks. It has been a sport oriented technique for ever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no suddenly MMA has pulled this kick from TMA.


Is that the distinction you draw - between TMA and sport? Just asking.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Is that the distinction you draw - between TMA and sport? Just asking.



In this case specifically styles that don't compete vs styles that do. 

Because for the discussion you will find MMA tends to draw from styles that have fighters in them.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Which video have I dismissed?
> 
> And no. I am working objectively. I don't think BJJ is the best system for handling offenders. It just has the most evidence.
> 
> If you wanted to take a style discussion and add a bunch of tactical considerations then I would suggest folk wrestling. Because you fight to be on top and fight to stand up which is more applicable.
> 
> 
> Otherwise there is a lot of videos that confirm bjj working in the street.


In multiple threads, you dismissed (pretty much ignored, in one thread) videos that showed types of attacks you said weren't valid - just wouldn't happen.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> In this case specifically styles that don't compete vs styles that do.
> 
> Because for the discussion you will find MMA tends to draw from styles that have fighters in them.


Thanks. That'll help me avoid confusion. The terms don't have universal definitions, of course.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Thanks. That'll help me avoid confusion. The terms don't have universal definitions, of course.



Using it specifically for this discussion because Jow Gar was throwing the term around.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> In multiple threads, you dismissed (pretty much ignored, in one thread) videos that showed types of attacks you said weren't valid - just wouldn't happen.



So multiple threads?

Look you are making the accusation you should back that up with some evidence rather than just start suggesting multiple threads.

Second time you pulled this stunt on this thread by the way.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> So multiple threads?
> 
> Look you are making the accusation you should back that up with some evidence rather than just start suggesting multiple threads.
> 
> Second time you pulled this stunt on this thread by the way.


Nope. Can't really be bothered to search through threads looking for it. If you don't remember it, it's not that important.


----------



## Martial D

gpseymour said:


> Is that the distinction you draw - between TMA and sport? Just asking.


Sport is when TMA gloves up, under some conditions that allow for winning or losing. Any TMA can be a sport under these conditions.


----------



## dvcochran

drop bear said:


> John Jones does both.
> Anyway holly Holmes


Holmes could do about anything she wanted to in that fight.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> Sport is when TMA gloves up, under some conditions that allow for winning or losing. Any TMA can be a sport under these conditions.


I like that distinction. It's pretty clean. So, when folks do that, it ceases to be "TMA" for the purpose of this discussion.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> Trap the hands? Low percentage, probably eat a fist..better to clinch.


 I don't know if this will help you with WC but my understanding of trapping the hands is to do it before your opponents arm is fully extended and that this is actually close range. I can't think of an situation where trapping a punch at the end of the punch is a good idea or functional. 

If I want to trap my opponent's hands I would do it at the beginning of my opponents punch and not at the end.  If I were to take WC that's where my trapping would begin.  Anything outside of that 50% range would be longer strikes until I can get into range.Within that 50% range punches will not land as hard , I can now start jamming and striking and take advantage of my shorter ranged punches.

In the context of a 4 sided ring.  Having my opponent pinned in the corner on the ropes would force my opponent to play my game.  In the middle of the wring, he would be forcing me to play his game.  So I have to change from close quarters to distance and mobility.

Also if I wanted to learn WC, I wouldn't spar with another WC practitioner unless he pretty much abandon's WC and turns into a brawler.  My Jow Ga sparring partners did that a lot so me using my techniques against them was more like what I would be against in the street in terms of the types of strikes I had to deal with.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> John Jones does both.
> Anyway holly Holmes


good job finding that one. with Holly Holmes


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> I sometimes wonder if some of the narrow stance influence is later-life instructors.


That's a real possibility,  We don't fight the same as we get older or injured.  I've seen Wing Chun systems that use a wider stance that looks more like the common fighting stance that we see, so I'm always curious about the strict determination to ALWAYS keep a narrow stance.  

I would like to know when the narrow stance came into play, who started it, and what was their physical condition, was it age or an injury.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> Holmes could do about anything she wanted to in that fight.


yeah so much was wrong about that fight.  Ronda's coach, the effort to get her to switch to boxing, the training. Ronda went in with an untested skill set and Holmes took advantage of that , rightfully so.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Nope. Can't really be bothered to search through threads looking for it. If you don't remember it, it's not that important.



It is ironically common but also super hard to find because it is mostly a disruptive move rather than a finish move. So it will never be in a highlight reel.


----------



## Hanzou

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't know if this will help you with WC but my understanding of trapping the hands is to do it before your opponents arm is fully extended and that this is actually close range. I can't think of an situation where trapping a punch at the end of the punch is a good idea or functional.
> 
> If I want to trap my opponent's hands I would do it at the beginning of my opponents punch and not at the end.  If I were to take WC that's where my trapping would begin.  Anything outside of that 50% range would be longer strikes until I can get into range.Within that 50% range punches will not land as hard , I can now start jamming and striking and take advantage of my shorter ranged punches.
> 
> In the context of a 4 sided ring.  Having my opponent pinned in the corner on the ropes would force my opponent to play my game.  In the middle of the wring, he would be forcing me to play his game.  So I have to change from close quarters to distance and mobility.
> 
> Also if I wanted to learn WC, I wouldn't spar with another WC practitioner unless he pretty much abandon's WC and turns into a brawler.  My Jow Ga sparring partners did that a lot so me using my techniques against them was more like what I would be against in the street in terms of the types of strikes I had to deal with.



Interesting fight theory. However, we have multiple examples of WC fighters being unable to apply that theory when strikes are raining down on them.


----------



## Martial D

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't know if this will help you with WC but my understanding of trapping the hands is to do it before your opponents arm is fully extended and that this is actually close range. I can't think of an situation where trapping a punch at the end of the punch is a good idea or functional.
> 
> If I want to trap my opponent's hands I would do it at the beginning of my opponents punch and not at the end.  If I were to take WC that's where my trapping would begin.  Anything outside of that 50% range would be longer strikes until I can get into range.Within that 50% range punches will not land as hard , I can now start jamming and striking and take advantage of my shorter ranged punches.
> 
> In the context of a 4 sided ring.  Having my opponent pinned in the corner on the ropes would force my opponent to play my game.  In the middle of the wring, he would be forcing me to play his game.  So I have to change from close quarters to distance and mobility.
> 
> Also if I wanted to learn WC, I wouldn't spar with another WC practitioner unless he pretty much abandon's WC and turns into a brawler.  My Jow Ga sparring partners did that a lot so me using my techniques against them was more like what I would be against in the street in terms of the types of strikes I had to deal with.



Ya. It just doesn't work when the other guy knows how to fight. The only time hand trapping is worth even thinking about is on the ground, or if you are already clinching(and there are better options even there)

I feel like if you went and trained MMA for a month a lot of what you believe would change.


----------



## Martial D

gpseymour said:


> I like that distinction. It's pretty clean. So, when folks do that, it ceases to be "TMA" for the purpose of this discussion.


I don't know that TMA and sport are mutually exclusive.

We have sport karate, tkd, judo. Even tomiki aikido has a sport version.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Interesting fight theory. However, we have multiple examples of WC fighters being unable to apply that theory when strikes are raining down on them.



Lomenchenco does it. But he learned it from boxing.

That other obscure TMA that MMA draws from.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Hanzou said:


> Interesting fight theory. However, we have multiple examples of WC fighters being unable to apply that theory when strikes are raining down on them.


Not sure what to say about that.  To me this is basic.  I don't think this would be difficult.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Martial D said:


> I feel like if you went and trained MMA for a month a lot of what you believe would change.


Agree! Even if one just has one golden glove boxing experience, he will understand how important it is to deal with left hook, right hook, left hook, right hook, … that most TMA people don't train how to deal with it.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> Ya. It just doesn't work when the other guy knows how to fight. The only time hand trapping is worth even thinking about is on the ground, or if you are already clinching(and there are better options even there)
> 
> I feel like if you went and trained MMA for a month a lot of what you believe would change.


It wouldn't change anything.  These are the same thing I use to coach my brother who is an amateur Muay Tai and MMA fighter.   This type of stuff doesn't have an thing to do with TMA or MMA.  It's my understanding of the mechanics of punching.   If I don't understand this, then it would mpossible for me to be successful with my crazy Jow Ga techniques.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> It wouldn't change anything.  These are the same thing I use to coach my brother who is an amateur Muay Tai and MMA fighter.   This type of stuff doesn't have an thing to do with TMA or MMA.  It's my understanding of the mechanics of punching.   If I don't understand this, then it would mpossible for me to be successful with my crazy Jow Ga techniques.



More to do with the quality of your sparring partners.


----------



## Martial D

JowGaWolf said:


> It wouldn't change anything.  These are the same thing I use to coach my brother who is an amateur Muay Tai and MMA fighter.   This type of stuff doesn't have an thing to do with TMA or MMA.  It's my understanding of the mechanics of punching.   If I don't understand this, then it would mpossible for me to be successful with my crazy Jow Ga techniques.


I realize you think that. I used to believe a lot of stuff too before I had it smacked out of me by trained fighters.

I guess you won't know unless you do it.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> More to do with the quality of your sparring partners.


It still wouldn't change my thoughts of that.  My fight theories ha nothing to do with sparring partners. I focus on mechanics. One hand goes out, the other hand returns. On hand returns the other one goes out.  This guy isn't my sparring partner but he's doing exactly what I described in my theory.





This guy must suck too because he's doing the same thing I'm talking about. Play it in slow motion  One hand goes back the other hand goes forward. Like a nice little pulley system.What around that 50% mark.





I haven't sparred with either one of these people and yet, my theory fits nicely with what is going on.  These guys are doing this regardless of if I'm sparring or not.   So how does me sparring with "Quality sparring partners" affect how they are throwing punches? or the mechanics of punching.


----------



## Martial D

JowGaWolf said:


> It still wouldn't change my thoughts of that.  My fight theories ha nothing to do with sparring partners. I focus on mechanics. One hand goes out, the other hand returns. On hand returns the other one goes out.  This guy isn't my sparring partner but he's doing exactly what I described in my theory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This guy must suck too because he's doing the same thing I'm talking about. Play it in slow motion  One hand goes back the other hand goes forward. Like a nice little pulley system.What around that 50% mark.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't sparred with either one of these people and yet, my theory fits nicely with what is going on.  These guys are doing this regardless of if I'm sparring or not.   So how does me sparring with "Quality sparring partners" affect how they are throwing punches? or the mechanics of punching.



I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.  In the initial post I made that drew this reply, I was talking about(at least in the part you quoted) hand trapping

You made one of your usual comments that set off my newbie alarm which is why I suggested trying MMA for some context.


----------



## Martial D

Martial D said:


> I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.  In the initial post I made that drew this reply, I was talking about(at least in the part you quoted) hand trapping
> 
> You made one of your usual comments that set off my newbie alarm which is why I suggested trying MMA for some context.


I should probably clarify. With this I did not mean to imply you are a newbie to martial arts. I am convinced this is not the case.

You know when you have done something a lot, and you can just recognise others that have done likewise by small comments and observations they might make that just jive with your experience in an intimate and authentic way?  The opposite is also true.

You ever wonder why fighting, be it in a ring or otherwise, mostly looks very similar, regardless if it's a trained Kung Fu guy or an untrained guy or a sport fighter?

There are a limited number of high percentage strikes, and take downs, but no way to know which ones they are until you mix it up.

All that separates the trained sport fighters(ie the ones with the mat/ring time) from the rest are the quality with which they execute them.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.


Because you are too quick to dismiss me without thinking about what I'm saying or talking about.  So I end up having to explain stuff that really shouldn't be difficult to graps.

Here Is my quote.  

*It wouldn't change anything. These are the same thing I use to coach my brother who is an amateur Muay Tai and MMA fighter. *
I showed 2 random videos of people punching and it still lined up with my basic punching theory.   And that was to address your comment below.

your comment: "*I realize you think that. I used to believe a lot of stuff too before I had it smacked out of me by trained fighters*."

I then I stated what should be clear, but because it wasn't I posted 2 videos that didn't have anything to do with MMA or TMA, which those videos addresses your statement
"*This type of stuff doesn't have an thing to do with TMA or MMA*." 

*"It's my understanding of the mechanics of punching. If I don't understand this, then it would mpossible for me to be successful with my crazy Jow Ga techniques.  I stated how this understanding helps me in what I do*."  This is what helps me be successful with what I do, so why would I stop doing what works for me? 

Like I've said plenty of times.  I spar to learn, so while people like you are so focused on trying to wind or get the better shot in.  I'm absorbing all sorts of information as I'm seeking to understand what's coming at me, the limitations of it, the openings.  etc.   I analyze the crap out things while I spar.  So when the time comes for me to actually use it, I don't have to think much about it,

Here's a conversation that I had with my brother after giving him some tips about kicking. I watched one of his fights, analyzed it, and saw a few things that would be easy for him to pick up and help him to be better with his kicks.  We spent 3 hours training outside with 1 of the hours training in the dark with, only a light that threw shadows everywhere.  His response is in the white.  Did we train TMA that night? Nope.  Did we train MMA that night? nope.  We spent 3 hours going over the mechanics of lead jab, the weaknesses, how to trigger it and how to understand when to throw the kick or not.  The same basic punching theory that I described here is the same one he spent an almost 2 hours trying to "spar to learn" and understand.  He picked it up.. he finally understood.  By that 3rd hour his timing got better as he understood what to look for.

Not that his comments didn't say "ahh that stuff doesn't work"  He listened to what I saying, tried it against resistance, Not just against me, but against his girlfriend who fights in Muay Thai matches. That first hour he screwed up, made lots of mistakes, couldn't land the kick. that second have of that training session. He had enough understanding to be able to land that front kick at will, if he decides to keep training it.

.




Photos from the training session that went into the night.  





You guys should be sick and tired of me backing up what I say.  I have no reason to lie or hype myself up on Martial Talk. There's no benefit in me doing such a thing.  Spend less time trying to tell me what doesn't work and more time giving it some thought.  Heck, try it out.  Drop bear did and it didn't kill him.  


And as far a WC and hand trapping goes the closer  you get to your opponent the easier it is to do when you are trying to trap punching at the end of the punch.  Now how do you get close enough.  I have no idea.  1. I don't do WC.  2, what makes it easy for me to get close may not make it easy for someone else to get close.  That'll just be a skill set that you'll have to learn..

Just because WC doesn't work for you doesn't mean that what everyone else does is invalid.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> You know when you have done something a lot, and you can just recognise others that have done likewise by small comments and observations they might make that just jive with your experience in an intimate and authentic way? The opposite is also true.


 I understand this but do't focus on that because at this very point what you are telling yourself that the only people you can beat are the ones you spar with.  Boxers fight against other boxers who they never been in the wring with and they win.  You can do the same if you can recognize the mechanics of a jab and body movement.

For the most part jabs travel that same general mechanical line using similar body mechanics.  If any thing, this is why "TMA chinese super masters " fail.  They have never seen the mechanics of a Jab so when they get in the ring they look lost as they struggle to deal with a jab.  If you get jabbed at by 10 different people then you already have a good understanding of what a jab is, how it moves, the distance of a jab.  You can recognize good ones and bad ones.  You may be like me where Jabs at certain angles give me trouble. Or you may be better than me with jab.  But regardless of if you spar against me or not.  If you spar to learn what's really going on with a jab when your opponent's use it then you it's going to be very similar against other fighters.  Only difference is arm reach , speed, and power. 

So give yourself more credit in your ability.  One day spar to learn, just focus on what's going on and what you can pick up about your opponent while you spare.  Just be sure to tell your sparring partner not to hit you hard because you're going to get hit a lot while sparring to learn, but you'll learn stuff that will blow your mind away and surprise you.  Then when it comes to actually fighting in competition, your going to do better than what you think.

Also stop comparing the quality of what you do to that of a professional fighter.  If you aren't planning on being a professional fighter with a winning record then stop making that your "acceptable level of performance.".

I'm not here to blow magic kung fu dust everywhere.  As a matter of fact.  I ALWAYS tell people that the more you learn about fighting the less it becomes about fighting.  Also don't take what I say as being 100% strict it works this way only.  Because that's not realistic. Even I don't think that and that should never be the automatic assumption about what I say or what anyone else says..  Look at it as a starting point to go any direction you want to.  Maybe for you the hands don't pass each other at 50%.   Maybe for you the punches extend 100% and return to guard at 50%.  There are so many variety of ways of how to look at punches and how to take advantage of it. 




Martial D said:


> There are a limited number of high percentage strikes, and take downs, but no way to know which ones they are until you mix it up.


  Again you are already defeating yourself.  You want to get higher percentage of strikes and take downs"  then learn how to trigger certain movements and reactions in people.  Trick them, bait them, force them, lead them, or do whatever gets them to be in that position where your strike or take down will be more successful.

Stop focusing on things like "no way to know which ones" and start focusing on.  "if I do this, most people react this way"  and use that to set them up. Don't let your opponent control the fight and what type of game it's going to be.   Figure out a way to move things into your favor.  Figure it out,   For me personal, I focus first on learning how to t do a technique, then I spend time trying to figure out when and what type of fighters this technique works best against based on my ability.  If I come across someone different then I know that I have to use something else. 



Martial D said:


> All that separates the trained sport fighters(ie the ones with the mat/ring time) from the rest are the quality with which they execute them.


I think that's part of it, but that quality comes from training like a beast all the time.   I wouldn't step foot in an MMA ring unless my training intensity is at least equal of MMA fighters in general.  If I'm going to use a big Jow Ga punch the I better train that punch like a beast against a wide variety of strikes in grappling attempts.  I better train that technique as if my life and well being depends on it.  My 5 day a week training that I did at my old school was no where near what it needed to be.  During that time I was actually starting to train to fight competitively and had begun training against competitive Sanda students who were looking to make it on a national team.  Life had other plans and I had to stop my training when my wife was diagnosed with cancer.  

If this is the extent of the training that is done in any system, then yeah don't fight against people who train harder than this.





My first time sparring againt competitive sanda students made it clear just how bad and unprepared my cardio was.  Forget punching kicking and throwing people to the ground.  My cardio was crap.  But I cleaned it up trained harder and it paid off.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.  In the initial post I made that drew this reply, I was talking about(at least in the part you quoted) hand trapping
> 
> You made one of your usual comments that set off my newbie alarm which is why I suggested trying MMA for some context.


I would love to spar against you and drop bear, not because I have anything to prove but because it'll be nice to show you that things aren't as bleak as it seems, and things are more practical with me.   The closest I would every get to this is for me to prank you guys.  Walk in with a yellow bamboo t-shirt, play the role and then then be the total opposite of this crazy stuff. lol.  Other than for me it's body mechanics and do I have the speed and power to pull of whatever it is against whoever.




If the person is faster the I need to train to be faster or find a way be the speed with something else, which is pretty much the same choices most people have regardless of what they do.  If i can't find a working solution then I guess losing is an option (in terms of competition).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> I don't know that TMA and sport are mutually exclusive.
> 
> We have sport karate, tkd, judo. Even tomiki aikido has a sport version.


This post is closer to my own view. When I speak of "TMA", I'm typically referring to styles/schools that - for whatever reason - prefer to keep some of the older methods and rituals. So, if it's a JMA or CMA and there's moderately formal bowing, I'm likely to view it as a TMA. Kyokushin would be a good example of there being a lot of TMA aspects (still using kata, etc.), with lots of competition. Most Judo schools are still moderately traditional, too.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Lomenchenco does it. But he learned it from boxing.
> 
> That other obscure TMA that MMA draws from.


Asking out of ignorance of WC (and semi-ignorance of boxing) - what's the difference between the way boxing traps and how WC approaches it?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! Even if one just has one golden glove boxing experience, he will understand how important it is to deal with left hook, right hook, left hook, right hook, … that most TMA people don't train how to deal with it.


Agreed. It's an odd omission I see, even among schools that tend to focus on round attacks. They look at the big looping round attack, but ignore the tighter and still powerful hooks.


----------



## Martial D

gpseymour said:


> Asking out of ignorance of WC (and semi-ignorance of boxing) - what's the difference between the way boxing traps and how WC approaches it?


Foot movement mostly. Lomenchenko pulls that off because he is super good at keeping opponents on his centerline while staying off of theirs. If you are on opponents centerline, trapping hands doesn't work.


----------



## O'Malley

Sorry for derailing the side-thread.



Alan Smithee said:


> Is a myth 99% of the time. The reality is that you can't apply the joint lock whatsoever on a person of similar build and strength if the person resists. You just get stuck. Believe me, I have challenged people on it, including instructors giving out the lecture, and others have too. They can't apply it to me and I can't apply it to them. Simple as that.
> 
> So where does this notion stem from that you have to cooperate? It's just not true.
> 
> With that in mind, how do you know where your level of Aikido is if it's never tested? What are the criterias? Is it something to do with center of gravity and balance, flow? I have no idea since it's a cooperation between individuals.



Out of curiosity, which joint locks did you try?

Aikido is primarily trained in the form of kata ("forms" or drills). Uke (the "receiver", which often means the one who attacks and then gets "aikidone") must attack sincerely within the framework of the kata. This means that, if the kata requires that uke grab his partner, uke must grab with the intention of blocking tori's wrist (or pulling or pushing him depending on what is being taught). Uke must also try to maintain structure, strength and balance as much as possible.

This provides his partner (tori) with resistance against which he must perform the kata. If tori does not develop the proper technique and conditioning, he will fail against this resistance. Conversely, if tori manages to perform the kata under those conditions, it means that his aikido is good enough to overcome this resistance.

However, an important caveat is that uke's attack must be _sincere_: it needs to provide the necessary resistance but still needs to stay within the limits of the kata, it's not sparring: if the kata requires me to just do a grab, I will grab strongly but I will not start yanking in every direction or headbutting my partner: that would not be "resisting the technique", it would be a form of sparring.

With this in mind, if you expect a particular technique to be applied to you when you are sparring and know that it's coming, it's on you for not understanding that it's a drill. On the other hand, if you resisted by simply grabbing/striking hard, with good form and maintaining structure and balance, and your instructor was not able to overcome that sincere resistance, quite frankly I would not want to train under him: good aikido takes your balance and brings you down without you having to compromise your own balance, structure or the strength of your attack.

As regards your second question, here's a quick roadmap for aikido progression:

Beginner - knows the motions
Intermediate - manages to overcome uke's resistance in static kata, may struggle against certain people (particularly strong/tall/short/flexible/whatever ukes)
Advanced - smoothly overcomes uke's resistance in static kata, can apply the technique in dynamic kata (which requires greater sense of timing, flow and distance)
Very advanced - smoothly overcomes resistance in both static and dynamic kata, can smoothly apply techniques in freestyle

Some styles do not train with resistance and require uke to stop maintaining his own structure (i.e. grab without impeding tori's movement) or "choose" to do something in the middle of the technique for it to work. This stems from incorrect technique. For example, I was taught by an Aikikai 5th dan that, when tori brings me down during the following technique, I should try my best to stand back up (and then tori throws me the other way):






As a beginner, I said "why should I stand up so you can clothesline me?", the teacher replied "because that's the most natural thing to do". For me, now as back then, the natural thing to do when I am brought down and forward is either to fall down or keep moving forward, not try to stand up while running in circles around tori. I was told that it was because I should think like a warrior and, since the other options were dangerous (I was never shown why), in the heat of the battle my first reaction should be to straighten up (so that I can be thrown).

When I entered an Iwama aikido school, I learnt that, with proper technique, uke never "needs to straighten up" or even gets a chance to walk away as he is never brought "down and forward": tori enters and take uke's balance to the rear/outside, takes control of his spine and throws him.






I hope this helps.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Asking out of ignorance of WC (and semi-ignorance of boxing) - what's the difference between the way boxing traps and how WC approaches it?



Apart from lomenchenco being just better.

Boxing doesn't trap a hundred percent of the striking which you can't do.

I have mentioned this. So without even knowing a strike is coming footwork automatically takes care of some of it.

Then head movement takes care of some of it.

Then your guard takes care of some of it.

Then you trap the much smaller amount of punches that are left.

Wing chun stands directly in front of you directly in range with their chin up and their hands away from their face and basically say come at me punches.

And then don't even condition themselves for the sort of super hard cardio, iron chin style of fight that becomes.

Now you can get away with these moves if the other guy is a bit crap. If the punches are slow and getting hit holds no danger. But ramp that up and you just get picked off.


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## drop bear

O'Malley said:


> As a beginner, I said "why should I stand up so you can clothesline me?", the teacher replied "because that's the most natural thing to do". For me, now as back then, the natural thing to do when I am brought down and forward is either to fall down or keep moving forward, not try to stand up while running in circles around tori.



You would then fall on all fours and get soccer kicked in the face.


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## Martial D

gpseymour said:


> This post is closer to my own view. When I speak of "TMA", I'm typically referring to styles/schools that - for whatever reason - prefer to keep some of the older methods and rituals. So, if it's a JMA or CMA and there's moderately formal bowing, I'm likely to view it as a TMA. Kyokushin would be a good example of there being a lot of TMA aspects (still using kata, etc.), with lots of competition. Most Judo schools are still moderately traditional, too.



It's mostly the training methods that strike me as the relevant difference.  But the ceremony is also a noteable distinction.


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## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> Apart from lomenchenco being just better.
> 
> Boxing doesn't trap a hundred percent of the striking which you can't do.
> 
> I have mentioned this. So without even knowing a strike is coming footwork automatically takes care of some of it.
> 
> Then head movement takes care of some of it.
> 
> Then your guard takes care of some of it.
> 
> Then you trap the much smaller amount of punches that are left.
> 
> Wing chun stands directly in front of you directly in range with their chin up and their hands away from their face and basically say come at me punches.
> 
> And then don't even condition themselves for the sort of super hard cardio, iron chin style of fight that becomes.
> 
> Now you can get away with these moves if the other guy is a bit crap. If the punches are slow and getting hit holds no danger. But ramp that up and you just get picked off.


I thought WC was supposed to trap off their opponent's centerline


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## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> I thought WC was supposed to trap off their opponent's centerline



Trap from the center line or trap avoiding the center line?


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## Kung Fu Wang

drop bear said:


> Wing chun stands directly in front of you directly in range with their chin up and "their hands away from their face" and basically say come at me punches.


Have to disagree with you on this.

Which strategy is better?

1. My hands are away from my face and close to your face.
2. My hands are close to my face and away from your face.

IMO, 1 > 2.

If My hands are close to

- your face, I won't give you enough space to generate your punching speed and power. If you want to hit my face, your hands have to pass through my hands before your hand can reach to my face.
- my face, I pretty much tell you that I am just your punching dummy and you can punch me any way that you prefer.

This is why I don't like the boxing guard. It's too conservative. If I let your arm to swing at me freely, it will be my fault to start with.

The arm wrapping (or double over hooks) is the best strategy to deal with a boxer's punch. When there is a problem (such as your opponent hands can punch on your head), there is always a simple solution (such as to disable his free arms ASAP).









There is a good reason that spear is superior than the sword. When a spear head is 2 feet away from your face, your sword will have to deal with the spear first. You have to worry about that spear can stab into your chest before your sword can cut your opponent's head off.


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## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> Trap from the center line or trap avoiding the center line?


I thought that little twist that they do was to get off center-line so they don't get smashed in the face. So with that assumption I thought the trapping was done by avoiding your opponent's center-line.   When I trap I don't like to trap head on.  I prefer taking some kind of angle which reduces the chance that I'll get smashed in the face for standing directly in front of my sparring partner.  For me taking that angle isn't so much about avoiding the first punch as it is to make it difficult for my opponent to throw the second punch.  So if you  punch with  a right jab, then I want to move to the left of your jab.  That way your right punching arm is in between your left punch and my face. By me being off my opponent's center line,  I will have the option to strike because I'm facing my opponent, but my opponent has to reposition so he can use his left arm.

I'm not sure if that painted a clear picture., but anyway.. that's what I thought that that twist was for., to move the body off the opponents center line. Which would make it easier to trap than standing in front eating a 1 - 2 jab combo. or a hook.


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## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> I thought that little twist that they do was to get off center-line so they don't get smashed in the face. So with that assumption I thought the trapping was done by avoiding your opponent's center-line.   When I trap I don't like to trap head on.  I prefer taking some kind of angle which reduces the chance that I'll get smashed in the face for standing directly in front of my sparring partner.  For me taking that angle isn't so much about avoiding the first punch as it is to make it difficult for my opponent to throw the second punch.  So if you  punch with  a right jab, then I want to move to the left of your jab.  That way your right punching arm is in between your left punch and my face. By me being off my opponent's center line,  I will have the option to strike because I'm facing my opponent, but my opponent has to reposition so he can use his left arm.
> 
> I'm not sure if that painted a clear picture., but anyway.. that's what I thought that that twist was for., to move the body off the opponents center line. Which would make it easier to trap than standing in front eating a 1 - 2 jab combo. or a hook.



You would think you would see it in chi sou






The term is the 12o clock. And it is where you and him are directly in front of each other.

Lomenchenco is almost always at 1 or 11.


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## JowGaWolf

@drop bear  I don't like this twisting that he does at 2:56 because he stays on my center-line for jabs and crosses.  His feet move but his head and body stays in the same place.  I've seen other WC practitioners do the same technique but, they actually move off the center line, which make more sense to me, then staying in one place. 

[






drop bear said:


> You would think you would see it in chi sou
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The term is the 12o clock. And it is where you and him are directly in front of each other.
> 
> Lomenchenco is almost always at 1 or 11.



This is how I think of Chi Sau and it's probably because I took Tai Chi.    The concept of sticking with and controlling the opponent's hand and arms. And sensing what your opponent may do based on how he's trying to position his hands.  Or it can be used to sense opening of attack. 




This is just me and my thinking.  If I wanted to train this technique, I would find grappler because that would give me more opportunity to use Chi Sou.  I wouldn't try this with a striker unless it was from a clinch, meaning my opponent will try to apply a clinch and I would try to keep it from happening. Chi Sou to me is like "controlling hand" and the only real way to use it to have contact and "stickiness" when is really difficult to near impossible to do hat the end of sometimes punch.  If  were to try it against a puncher I would have to first figure out how to get within clinch range and then how to keep my opponent there.  That's just my thinking based on the numerous punches I've taken in the past.


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## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> You would think you would see it in chi sou
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The term is the 12o clock. And it is where you and him are directly in front of each other.
> 
> Lomenchenco is almost always at 1 or 11.


Another thing about Chi Sou.  If I had to practice it with another WC student, then all of that practice would be training of concept.   I would actually have to Practice against a non-WC student in order to practice the Application  of it.  A non WC student isn't going to be tempted to get into formal Wing Chun stances and Chi Sou positioning.  Again this just my personal thoughts on this, because that how I train my Jow Ga.  Jow Ga vs Jow Ga = concept training.   Jow Ga vs something else = application training.

This is what I enjoyed about my old sparring partners.  They rarely used Jow Ga techniques.  They preferred boxing and haymakers. So as long as they were doing that I was getting good application training.


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## Kung Fu Wang

JowGaWolf said:


> Another thing about Chi Sou.  If I had to practice it with another WC student,


If a WC guy uses sticky hand against a SC guy, the process will be different. The "separate hands" will be used to separate the WC guy's arms away from his head. A clinch will be then established.

Which approach is better? The answer may depend on whether you can truly knock your opponent down in the sticky hand range or not.


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## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> Foot movement mostly. Lomenchenko pulls that off because he is super good at keeping opponents on his centerline while staying off of theirs. If you are on opponents centerline, trapping hands doesn't work.


Thanks. That's good food for thought. I need to look at how I'm trapping (and how I teach it) to see if I'm focusing enough on that point.


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## Martial D

gpseymour said:


> Thanks. That's good food for thought. I need to look at how I'm trapping (and how I teach it) to see if I'm focusing enough on that point.


Ya.

It might be different in other arts but with the WC I learned the objective was always to pin one arm with the other arm. This is substantially easier to do if he is angled off you.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Martial D said:


> It might be different in other arts but with the WC I learned the objective was always to pin one arm with the other arm. This is substantially easier to do if he is angled off you.


When you pin your opponent's arm,. do you pin on his forearm. elbow joint, or upper arm? Also do you pin with your tiger mouth (space between thumb and index finger) facing toward yourself, or facing toward your opponent?


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## Martial D

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you pin your opponent's arm,. do you pin on his forearm. elbow joint, or upper arm? Also do you pin with your tiger mouth (space between thumb and index finger) facing toward yourself, or facing toward your opponent?


We used the palm side of the outside of the hand (knife edge). We kept the thumbs tucked . In fact, that was true of all hand techniques. Even our lop sau was a finger/palm grab.

The ideal trap in that WC was on the elbow, because it prevents rotating the arm free on the elbow axis.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Martial D said:


> We used the palm side of the outside of the hand (knife edge). We kept the thumbs tucked . In fact, that was true of all hand techniques. Even our lop sau was a finger/palm grab.
> 
> The ideal trap in that WC was on the elbow, because it prevents rotating the arm free on the elbow axis.


The reason that I ask you how to pin your opponent's forearm against his back arm, because when you do that, if you can pull your opponent's right arm to your right (his left), you can scoop his right leg or outer hook his left leg and take him down. The opportunity is there.

IMO, to pin your opponent's leading arm against his back arm is a very important strategy in CMA. At that moment, your opponent has no free arms and you still have 1 free arm. You can punch your opponent to death if you want to.

Not sure if Aikido uses this strategy.


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The reason that I ask you how to pin your opponent's forearm against his back arm, because when you do that, if you can pull your opponent's right arm to your right (his left), you can scoop his right leg or outer hook his left leg and take him down. The opportunity is there.
> 
> IMO, to pin your opponent's leading arm against his back arm is a very important strategy in CMA. At that moment, your opponent has no free arms and you still have 1 free arm. You can punch your opponent to death if you want to.
> 
> Not sure if Aikido uses this strategy.


I've never seen that arm pinning in Aikido (though I've incorporated it a bit). Aikido as I've seen it depends more in hiding behind the arm ("outside" the front arm) with forced weight shifts to slow a counter-pivot, for the same purpose.


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## Cynik75

Just for information: two day ago I tapped out standing wristlock. The perpetrator was an ukrainian wrestler.


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