# 'Empty' wooden dummy form



## izeqb (Nov 20, 2010)

Hi guys...

So, I saw an interview with Sifu Sergio and  Sifu Wong Nim Yi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDf6_02Bk3Q&feature=fvw)...

In the interview, Sifu Wong Nim Yi says that his students train the wooden dummy form, without the dummy, before they actually get to train with the dummy...

Have you ever tried that and how did it work?


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## matsu (Nov 21, 2010)

we dont actually learnt he dummy officailly till much further on in our training but i was desperate to learn it so i asked to attend a specific dummy seminar.
sifu told us it was good practice to learn it without the dummy.
and i have in the past dones so.
i find it harder lol
matsu


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## geezer (Nov 21, 2010)

In our system, we also train for many years before learning the dummy form. Before jumping into the dummy set there are so many other things that need to be focused on. IMHO too much emphasis on "collecting forms" and sets of solo movements can distract from developing a solid foundation and more important facets of the art. Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun is best learned working with an actual partner, Remember, the dummy is a substitute for a partner.  

I agree that it can be useful to practice the dummy form without the dummy (we call that the "air dummy"), but only after becoming familiar with doing the movements on the real dummy first. The mook yang jong provides valuable resistance and "feel" as well as the so-called _protractor-effect_ which helps align and correct the angles of your techniques. To practice the form in the air _before_ learning to do it on the real dummy seems about as logical as trying to learn to play the guitar by playing "air-guitar". It might be fun, but it could lead you to developing bad habits.


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## izeqb (Nov 21, 2010)

geezer said:


> I agree that it can be useful to practice the dummy form without the dummy (we call that the "air dummy"), but only after becoming familiar with doing the movements on the real dummy first. The mook yang jong provides valuable resistance and "feel" as well as the so-called _protractor-effect_ which helps align and correct the angles of your techniques. To practice the form in the air _before_ learning to do it on the real dummy seems about as logical as trying to learn to play the guitar by playing "air-guitar". It might be fun, but it could lead you to developing bad habits.



I value your opinion, but nevertheless, other linages are doing exactly that; Learning the dummy form "in the air"... 

I guess there's a reason they do so and a thought behind it...!


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## matsu (Nov 21, 2010)

geezer said:


> In our system, we also train for many years before learning the dummy form. Before jumping into the dummy set there are so many other things that need to be focused on. IMHO too much emphasis on "collecting forms" and sets of solo movements can distract from developing a solid foundation and more important facets of the art. Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun is best learned working with an actual partner, Remember, the dummy is a substitute for a partner.
> 
> I agree that it can be useful to practice the dummy form without the dummy (we call that the "air dummy"), but only after becoming familiar with doing the movements on the real dummy first. The mook yang jong provides valuable resistance and "feel" as well as the so-called _protractor-effect_ which helps align and correct the angles of your techniques. To practice the form in the air _before_ learning to do it on the real dummy seems about as logical as trying to learn to play the guitar by playing "air-guitar". It might be fun, but it could lead you to developing bad habits.


 
i hear ya mate.
we do not teach the dummy form as standard but sifu offers special seminars just to keep our interest/motivation etc
and as the dummy was one of the main things that brought me to wing chun-i just loved watching bruce lee as a kid, it was something i jumped at learning.
i also bought a dummy-far too early for my devel;opment but as well as practicing the form i use it exactly as you describe- a tool to check stance/energy/intention and shapes and as a sparring tool, so for me it was worth every penny and second ive put in t it.
i agree about the ~"air" form without using the dummy first-thatssomething i dont understand. but hey i,m a beginner so i wont question a sifus logic...........just yet

matsu


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## profesormental (Nov 22, 2010)

Greetings.

The Dummy form is useful to do even without the dummy, and even better if you have a partner to train the applications.

It is interesting to notice that there have to be certain adjustments to the Dummy applications when confronted with an attacker with serious intent of doing harm. Thus I consider the form as another "Index" set, not an application set. i.e. useful way to transmit/store knowledge about "how" to move, not necessarily "what" to do.

That is the job of the Sifu, to teach "how" well, and "what" to do with attention making sure the "how" is done well.


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## hpclub1000 (Nov 22, 2010)

I understand that it was around 1950s that Ip Man taught his students how to move in the air as if there was no dummy present.  it wasn't, as many think, because he did not have a dummy to practice on, but because it takes a certain skill to be able to move in this way.

From a personal perspective there is certainly merit in practicing the dummy form (or just certain techniques) in the air.  Cartainly perfoming the air dummy does not restrict your  techniques the full extenstion in order to develop full power.  Obviously it will not test your structure but you will be able to release the energy more freely.  So in this sense when performing the air dummy you are not imagining that the pieces of wood are present and holding back your technique.  The position of your techniques should be as they would be seen in the 3 empty hand forms.  For example if you were striking using Tan da.  The your palm strike would be at its full extension wereas on the dummy it might not.  The same may be said for certain kicks such as the stomping kick on the leg of the dummy. On the dummy you wount be able to follow through.  Your footwork can also be applied more freely.  

Hope this helps.


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## geezer (Nov 22, 2010)

profesormental said:


> Greetings.
> 
> The Dummy form is useful to do even without the dummy, and *even better if you have a partner to train the applications.*


 
This makes sense to me. Sometimes we train dummy techniques with a partner, both as done in the form, and also as actually applied. The partner, just like the mook yang jong provides the tactile or physical reference to correct your technique. I've never approached doing the "air dummy" as _hpclub _described it. It would be interesting to give it a try.


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## hpclub1000 (Nov 23, 2010)

Just another example of how the air dummy should differ.   In Section 2 of the dummy form we perform the side kick after the Pak/Fak. In the liniage I follow we find ourselves taking a half step back and then performing the kick to give sufficient space to perform the kick as the dummy body does not move.  However, in reality after the Pak/Fak has made contact your oppnant maye have moved back slightly so it would not be necessary to take the half step back and it may even need an step forward to follow up with the kick.  So again when performing the air dummy I wouldn't step back prior to the kick.  

So I guess it's not following the dummy form in the air as ridgidy asyou would against the dummy.  Your finishing positions should be as they would in Sil Lim Tao.


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## Poor Uke (Nov 23, 2010)

Mo Jong - I think it lierally means 'no jong'. Anyhoo yes we used to train it. Personally I think the dummy form can be taught around the time students are introduced to Chum Kiu. It (besides SLT) remains my favourite form from WC.


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## melry88 (Nov 23, 2010)

Also remember that Ip Man did not have a Jong right away in his Hong Kong era so he originally taught the segments in the air.

This has caused many discussions and arguments throughout the years because the segments may have been taught differently to students that started at different times in Ip Man's Hong Kong era.

Regardless working the form as we have been taught today in the air serves as a good workout and will help you flow through the techniques when applying structure and pressure to the jong.

My Si-Gung Master Sam Chan states this information in his Mok Yan Jong book.  Which has to be one of the most detailed books on the jong.

Have a great day guys!

Best...


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## cwk (Nov 24, 2010)

Poor Uke said:


> Mo Jong - I think it lierally means 'no jong'. Anyhoo yes we used to train it. Personally I think the dummy form can be taught around the time students are introduced to Chum Kiu. It (besides SLT) remains my favourite form from WC.



It's also sometimes referred to as hong jong- air dummy, and  as I understand, is part of the curriculums of some of the older mainland lineages.


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## sifupr (Jan 6, 2011)

Yip Man gave the first plans for a Wooden Dummy to be made in Hong Kong to William Cheung and his brother Cheung King Kong. 
They gave the plans to Koo Sang. 
http://web.archive.org/web/20060717012604/www.springtimesong.com/wcforms4woodendummy.htm 
Before that Yip Man taught hong jong


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## Vajramusti (Jan 7, 2011)

sifupr said:


> Yip Man gave the first plans for a Wooden Dummy to be made in Hong Kong to William Cheung and his brother Cheung King Kong.
> They gave the plans to Koo Sang.
> http://web.archive.org/web/20060717012604/www.springtimesong.com/wcforms4woodendummy.htm
> Before that Yip Man taught hong jong


----------------------------------------------Phil- that's a memory jogger- Ray's site--
Ray is a good guy.

joy chaudhuri


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## izeqb (Jan 8, 2011)

sifupr said:


> Yip Man gave the first plans for a Wooden Dummy to be made in Hong Kong to William Cheung and his brother Cheung King Kong.
> They gave the plans to Koo Sang.
> http://web.archive.org/web/20060717012604/www.springtimesong.com/wcforms4woodendummy.htm
> Before that Yip Man taught hong jong



Cool, thanks


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## Domino (Jan 10, 2011)

An interesting watch on a boring helpdesk, Thanks


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## Defence-Group (Feb 16, 2011)

Hi,

Ip-Man train at first with Wang-Kiu and some others the Air-wooden-dummy-form at the time where Kon-san construct the first dummy. the idea behind this is very simple... this is the way wingchun fighter do shadow boxing... later, a lot of students do the same... example: Wong-Shun-Leung






Cheers


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