# A very different 3rd form



## wckf92 (Jul 7, 2016)

Not sure what all the noise serves, but this is probably the most 'different' 3rd form I've ever seen!


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## KPM (Jul 7, 2016)

^^^^^^ That is William Cheung's "Traditional Wing Chun" Bil Gee form.


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## Marnetmar (Jul 7, 2016)

That was...interesting. This is coming from someone who knows what Cheung's version of the form looks like too.


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## wckf92 (Jul 7, 2016)

Marnetmar said:


> That was...interesting. This is coming from someone who knows what Cheung's version of the form looks like too.



...meaning, the vid doesn't match up?

and what's up with all that grunting the one guy was doing? Is that a requirement in TWC to "pass" a form/level?


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## Marnetmar (Jul 7, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> ...meaning, the vid doesn't match up?
> 
> and what's up with all that grunting the one guy was doing? Is that a requirement in TWC to "pass" a form/level?



Well, the sequence matches up as far as I can tell, but everything about how the form was executed was way sloppy and all over the place. And AFAIK TWC guys aren't required to grunt either.

Edit:

For comparison, here's William Cheung doing the form:


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## KPM (Jul 7, 2016)

Marnetmar said:


> That was...interesting. This is coming from someone who knows what Cheung's version of the form looks like too.



Yeah, the Bernickis started out with TWC and have since gone there own way.  I'm sure this version has their own changes and "tweaks."   So they call their thing "Jee Shim Wing Chun" now.


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## wckf92 (Jul 7, 2016)

Marnetmar said:


> Well, the sequence matches up as far as I can tell, but everything about how the form was executed was way sloppy and all over the place. And AFAIK TWC guys aren't required to grunt either.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> For comparison, here's William Cheung doing the form:




It almost appears as though he was taught or has injected aspects of the knives into his empty hand 3rd form?


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## geezer (Jul 7, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> Not sure what all *the noise *serves...



Gesundheit!


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## geezer (Jul 7, 2016)

Hey, does anybody have any factual information on where Willieam Cheung got his stuff? I know many Yip Man students believed he came up with it himself. But if not, there should be parallels in some of the old Fo'shan lineages, right?


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## anerlich (Jul 7, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> You mean about YM doing some stuff public vs private?





geezer said:


> Hey, does anybody have any factual information on where Willieam Cheung got his stuff? I know many Yip Man students believed he came up with it himself. But if not, there should be parallels in some of the old Fo'shan lineages, right?


ng

Haha. Good luck with that. I've been around TWC for 27 years and have been trying to find that out the whole time. A few superficial similarities with HFY but nowhere near enough to say they have the same source.

This is probably 90-95% similar to what I learned back in the 90's. Looks like these guys changed things around a bit. No biggie, my instructor has done the same. I don't do the grunt thing, but there are some parts of one form where a "hup" sound can be used.


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## KPM (Jul 7, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> It almost appears as though he was taught or has injected aspects of the knives into his empty hand 3rd form?



The TWC Chum Kiu form can easily be done with the knives.  Makes for a cool form!  The Biu Gee form doesn't work quite as well with the knives in my opinion, but still doable.  TWC is a "larger frame" and "long arm" version of Wing Chun.  So the knives fit pretty well with most of the motions.


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## Marnetmar (Jul 8, 2016)

geezer said:


> Hey, does anybody have any factual information on where Willieam Cheung got his stuff? I know many Yip Man students believed he came up with it himself. But if not, there should be parallels in some of the old Fo'shan lineages, right?



My thoughts:

-William Cheung probably saw limitations in his WC training and wanted to create a system that better suited him
-Problem is, in China, that's basically taboo. Changing the system from whatever you taught is a grave sin, and if you do change something you're expected to attribute it to someone else and not take credit for it
-William Cheung created the TWC story as a cover, but after seeing the money that it brought in, got a bit carried away with it.

FWIW I've seen a few TWC guys doing _very_ well in competitions (Jerry Devone, etc.) while simultaneously looking actually looking like proper Wing Chun, even with changes. So even though there's a bunch of woo woo and MLM, I think it's safe to say that there's _something_ of substance hidden in there.


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## geezer (Jul 8, 2016)

Marnetmar said:


> My thoughts:  -William Cheung created the TWC story as a cover, but after seeing the money that it brought in, got a bit carried away with it.
> FWIW I've seen a few TWC guys doing _very_ well in competitions (Jerry Devone, etc.) while simultaneously looking actually looking like proper Wing Chun, even with changes. So even though there's a bunch of woo woo and MLM, I think it's safe to say that there's _something_ of substance hidden in there.



Seems like a fair assessment. It would be interesting to have a few more people with experience in "TWC" contributing on this forum. Phil Redmond used to be a regular over on "that other forum" ...before it pretty much died out due to excessive bickering (imagine that!). It would be nice to get him on board here. Anybody know him?


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## Eric_H (Jul 9, 2016)

Huh, weird. The one performed by GM Cheung looks vaguely familiar in sequence (not details or structure) at certain parts to the last two sections of the public version of HFY's Chum Kiu. 

Also, regarding Sifu Redmond - from what I see he's mostly active on Facebook these days, there's a busy WC group on there.


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## anerlich (Jul 9, 2016)

Sifu Phillip Redmond on Facebook.

Eric_H, I met up with Alex Oropeza (duende from the KFM forum) when he was in Sydney about 10 years ago. We had a nice long chat over coffee and compared a few forms in the rain at Circular Quay near the Opera House. Suffice to say we both agreed that if TFC and HFY came from the same source it was a L-O-N-G way back.

EDIT: It probably wasn't 10 years ago I met Alex - we were talking about BJJ and I was a brown belt at the time, which I didn't get until late 2010 - so maybe six years ago.


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## anerlich (Jul 9, 2016)

KPM said:


> The TWC Chum Kiu form can easily be done with the knives.  Makes for a cool form!  The Biu Gee form doesn't work quite as well with the knives in my opinion, but still doable.  TWC is a "larger frame" and "long arm" version of Wing Chun.  So the knives fit pretty well with most of the motions.



You can try the knife form without the knives as well. And people say Wing Chun contains no hammerfists.


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## geezer (Jul 9, 2016)

anerlich said:


> Suffice to say we both agreed that if TFC and HFY came from the same source it was a L-O-N-G way back.



If you go back_ far enough_, we all came from the same source!

Picture of Ng Mui finally found:





OK that's "Lucy", but you get the idea.


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## KPM (Jul 10, 2016)

anerlich said:


> Eric_H, I met up with Alex Oropeza (duende from the KFM forum) when he was in Sydney about 10 years ago. We had a nice long chat over coffee and compared a few forms in the rain at Circular Quay near the Opera House. Suffice to say we both agreed that if TFC and HFY came from the same source it was a L-O-N-G way back.
> 
> .



I would be willing to believe that if there had been mainland Wing Chun styles around that looked anything like TWC and HFY.   This showed up recently on FB and does make my wonder:





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10202103004207861
			




But several people (including TWC people) agreed that this is just too close to TWC's Chum Kil form.  In this age of video it's just too easy for someone to copy something from DVD and claim it as "original."


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## wckf92 (Jul 10, 2016)

KPM, do find value in being a member of that FB forum? I've heard (on the Reddit WC forum) that FB forum is a vile place...no moderation, etc.


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## KPM (Jul 10, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> KPM, do find value in being a member of that FB forum? I've heard (on the Reddit WC forum) that FB forum is a vile place...no moderation, etc.



Yes, there is value.  No, it is not that bad at all!  Much better than that "other" forum that essentially self-destructed.


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## KPM (Jul 10, 2016)

I should mention, since it didn't show up on the link, that the video I posted above was touted as the "4th form" of one of the mainland Wing Chun systems.


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## anerlich (Jul 10, 2016)

KPM said:


> But several people (including TWC people) agreed that this is just too close to TWC's Chum Kil form.  In this age of video it's just too easy for someone to copy something from DVD and claim it as "original."



It has some similarities certainly, but he looks to have mixed other stuff in there as well. I don't really follow how non-TWC lineages do their forms so I'm hardly an authority.


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## Marnetmar (Jul 10, 2016)

I'm gonna call have to BS on that one. As far as I've ever been able to tell, Yip Man's the one that invented the "punch>tan>roll>pull back" motion, and all legitimate lineages that predate him have some form of snaking or Biu Jee-esque movement in place of that, or they don't have it at all.


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## Eric_H (Jul 11, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> KPM, do find value in being a member of that FB forum? I've heard (on the Reddit WC forum) that FB forum is a vile place...no moderation, etc.



You're already missed Henrik's first "goodbye forever" post. Some things never change #dramaQueen.


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## wckf92 (Jul 11, 2016)

Eric_H said:


> You're already missed Henrik's first "goodbye forever" post. Some things never change #dramaQueen.



I saw on that 'other' forum that he said goodbye............again....... hahaha


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 11, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> Not sure what all the noise serves, but this is probably the most 'different' 3rd form I've ever seen!


I don't know anything about the art, but those elbow strikes were terrible. It should kind of happen out in front of you on center line.


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## Callen (Jul 17, 2016)

KPM said:


> I should mention, since it didn't show up on the link, that the video I posted above was touted as the "4th form" of one of the mainland Wing Chun systems.



Interesting. Do you know the name of this "4th form"?


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## KPM (Jul 22, 2016)

^^^^^ No.  The original poster didn't provide a name.


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