# Damascus steel as a material for swords



## PhotonGuy (Apr 26, 2016)

I've noticed companies that sell swords are advertising certain swords in which they claim the blades are made with damascus steel. From what I've seen of it, using damascus steel results in a wavy pattern. Im wondering if damascus steel is any good and that the companies that claim to use it if they're using genuine damascus steel or are just making that claim and using some kind of knock off. Also, if damascus steel is over rated as it seems to be a new fad.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 27, 2016)

Layered steel was the best steel a few hundreds of years ago and more.  In those times, it could be difficult to get high quality steel, so steel of various quality was layered together and the sum was better than the parts.  Different steel has different qualities, and layering the steel could take advantage of these qualities.

Modern specialty steels made with modern metalurgical techniques can far surpass the old layering techniques, and can make very high quality steels with very consistent properties.  You definitely do not need layered steel, for a superior quality blade.

Seems to me that the layered steels today are often done for artistic and decorative purposes.  They can be beautiful.  But if the layers are of the same steel, done purely for decorative effect, then it defeats the very purpose of the layering in the first place.  If layering is to have any purpose beyond artistic value, then it needs to be a selection of different steels with different qualities that you want combined in a blade.

And again, you can get very high quality steels from modern sources, that will have the properties you are looking for.


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## GiYu - Todd (Apr 27, 2016)

Damascus steel is made my mixing different iron alloys and charcoal and melting them together.  The material is very heterogenous creating the swirling patterns.  The metal, call wootz, is then cast.  The different materials tend to work well together to create tough metal that holds a good edge... and is aestetically pleasing. 
"Pattern welding", which is a forge welding process, looks somewhat visually similar to Damascus steel.  The traditional "folded metal" katana of Japan's Kamakura period (ca. 1185-1333) is an example of this.  Two or more different alloys are heated, then hammered together to create a weld.  The material is then folded onto itself and the process repeats.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 27, 2016)

With the Damascus steel, did they actually cast it into a blade, or cast it into a billet, and then forge into a blade?

I've never cast steel, but I do bronze and silver and have sometimes altered an alloy content by adding nickel or copper.  If the metal is truly molten, it has always mixed, it never cools with a swirled pattern.  Is that somehow different with steel?


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 27, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> With the Damascus steel, did they actually cast it into a blade, or cast it into a billet, and then forge into a blade?
> 
> I've never cast steel, but I do bronze and silver and have sometimes altered an alloy content by adding nickel or copper.  If the metal is truly molten, it has always mixed, it never cools with a swirled pattern.  Is that somehow different with steel?



It's cast into an ingot, as I understand the process. I've pounded out a few pattern welded blades, but never tried to cast wootz.
The pattern in blades made from wootz is really quite random. The more regular patterns (wavy, stars, etc) are found in pattern welded blades, where the pattern can be controlled by the details of how the blade is folded and/or twisted during forging.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 27, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's cast into an ingot, as I understand the process. I've pounded out a few pattern welded blades, but never tried to cast wootz.
> The pattern in blades made from wootz is really quite random. The more regular patterns (wavy, stars, etc) are found in pattern welded blades, where the pattern can be controlled by the details of how the blade is folded and/or twisted during forging.


Well I learned something today.  I had assumed Damascus steel was a variant on a pattern welded blade.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 27, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Well I learned something today.  I had assumed Damascus steel was a variant on a pattern welded blade.


Nobody actually knows how it is made. The Forge is old, and there are knock off forges are in the area, but it just doesn't happen with the newer ones. It is a lost technology, but luckily, we still have one.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 27, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Nobody actually knows how it is made. The Forge is old, and there are knock off forges are in the area, but it just doesn't happen with the newer ones. It is a lost technology, but luckily, we still have one.



I do not think it is entirely a lost art. I believe that a number of people have been able to re-create wootz ingots that are identical in every measurable respect to originals. And I also believe (but am not certain) that much the same technique is used by at least a few traditional Japanese swordsmiths. I seem to recall watching a History Channel documentary on the subject, and even the kiln/crucible matched the ruined ones found in the middle east.
I also think that pattern welding with modern metals is a faster and easier and more controllable way to achieve the same end result - a blade with a super hard edge backed by a tough, more flexible spine.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 27, 2016)

I d


Dirty Dog said:


> I do not think it is entirely a lost art. I believe that a number of people have been able to re-create wootz ingots that are identical in every measurable respect to originals. And I also believe (but am not certain) that much the same technique is used by at least a few traditional Japanese swordsmiths. I seem to recall watching a History Channel documentary on the subject, and even the kiln/crucible matched the ruined ones found in the middle east.
> I also think that pattern welding with modern metals is a faster and easier and more controllable way to achieve the same end result - a blade with a super hard edge backed by a tough, more flexible spine.


I don't believe they did. They bought Damascus Steel, just like everyone else. Of course, it is all up in the air. We aren't sure.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 27, 2016)

Here is a video on Damascus Steel, Im not sure how reliable it is.


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## Buka (Apr 27, 2016)

God, there's so much I don't have any idea about. 

I love this place.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> Here is a video on Damascus Steel, Im not sure how reliable it is.


I want all of his good weapons lol.


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## pgsmith (Apr 28, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> I do not think it is entirely a lost art. I believe that a number of people have been able to re-create wootz ingots that are identical in every measurable respect to originals. And I also believe (but am not certain) that much the same technique is used by at least a few traditional Japanese swordsmiths. I seem to recall watching a History Channel documentary on the subject, and even the kiln/crucible matched the ruined ones found in the middle east.
> I also think that pattern welding with modern metals is a faster and easier and more controllable way to achieve the same end result - a blade with a super hard edge backed by a tough, more flexible spine.


  Not quite.
  It is true that several people have been able to recreate wootz steel. It is incorrect that this method is, or was, used by the Japanese. Both methods utilize a hot charcoal fire and a clay receptacle for catching the melt, but that's the only similarity. Wootz comes out as a pretty much homogenous, very high carbon content steel alloy. Japanese tamahagane steel comes out of the furnace with a lot of silica inclusion due to the fact that it begins as pretty low quality iron sand. It also varies quite a bit in carbon content from one area of the collection tub to another. What the Japanese did (and still do) is to break up the raw tamahagane steel into pieces, then select pieces based on carbon content (from the color) and forge weld them together. This drives out the excess silica content, and evens out the carbon content of the steel. It also gives it the distinctive pattern.

  The very hard edge and softer spine is created during the hardening process, not by the forge welding process. It's actually easier to achieve that using today's homogenous steel alloys than it is using forge welded steel.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 29, 2016)

For some reason my link to the video has been taken down, its not showing up in my post at #10.


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## Blindside (Apr 29, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> For some reason my link to the video has been taken down, its not showing up in my post at #10.



I can see it.


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## Blindside (Apr 29, 2016)

It is not often that swords show up in the journal "Nature."  
Sharpest cut from nanotube sword : Nature News


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 30, 2016)

Blindside said:


> I can see it.



It must've been a bad link I was using. When I couldn't see it I wasn't at my regular internet hookup.


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## GiYu - Todd (May 5, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> With the Damascus steel, did they actually cast it into a blade, or cast it into a billet, and then forge into a blade?
> 
> I've never cast steel, but I do bronze and silver and have sometimes altered an alloy content by adding nickel or copper. If the metal is truly molten, it has always mixed, it never cools with a swirled pattern. Is that somehow different with steel?


I believe it's usually forged.  I just forgot to mention that.  Good catch.

I assume the wootz isn't stirred or mixed much as it melts, otherwise, the patterns would be ruined.  Hopefully someone else has some expertise on it.  I'm curious about that too.


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## pgsmith (May 6, 2016)

Here's one of my favorite articles about wootz steel. It is a bit dated as more experimentation has been done since the article was originally written in 1998, but it has some great info on how the patterns in the steel are created.

The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades


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## Touch Of Death (May 6, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> Here's one of my favorite articles about wootz steel. It is a bit dated as more experimentation has been done since the article was originally written in 1998, but it has some great info on how the patterns in the steel are created.
> 
> The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades


I had read it was a lost art. Told ya so.


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## Ken Morgan (May 9, 2016)

I'm guessing it doesn't really matter much these days, as it all depends on what you need/want the sword for. Iaido, wall hanger, as a collectable, cutting **** in the back yard, or time travelling defence in a back alley circa 1500?


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## pgsmith (May 9, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> I had read it was a lost art. Told ya so.



  I did say that the article was a bit dated  ...  Damascus steel's lost secret found


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## pgsmith (May 9, 2016)

Ken Morgan said:


> I'm guessing it doesn't really matter much these days, as it all depends on what you need/want the sword for. Iaido, wall hanger, as a collectable, cutting **** in the back yard, or time travelling defence in a back alley circa 1500?


  I have one sword that gets used quite a bit for killing copperhead snakes around the house!  I consider that home defense rather than cutting **** in the back yard, although I guess it could go either way.


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