# Moo Duk Kwan Numbers



## dancingalone (Aug 29, 2013)

True or false?:  The number of Moo Duk Kwan black belts exceeded even the Chung Do Kwan's at one point.

Discuss.:hmm:


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 29, 2013)

I can't cite sources, since I'm not a home right now, but I've always understood that the Moo Duk Kwan was the largest Kwan at the beginning of the unification. Might still be, if you consider all the TKD MDK, TSD MDK and SBD MDK schools. If you consider only those that stayed with the unification, then it's certainly not.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 30, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> True or false?:  The number of Moo Duk Kwan black belts exceeded even the Chung Do Kwan's at one point.
> 
> Discuss.:hmm:



From what I've read, that seems to be the case. One reason the MDK got so huge was that Hwang Kee and his students practiced at railway stations and this allowed them to get their word out across Korea to a larger extent.


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## dancingalone (Aug 30, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> I can't cite sources, since I'm not a home right now, but I've always understood that the Moo Duk Kwan was the largest Kwan at the beginning of the unification. Might still be, if you consider all the TKD MDK, TSD MDK and SBD MDK schools. If you consider only those that stayed with the unification, then it's certainly not.



If anyone has an idea where numbers can be looked at, please share.  I had an interesting discussion with my student (ex-TSDer) about this recently and of course my 'competitive' nature made me insist the CDK was more numerous.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 30, 2013)

I'm going to have to do some digging. I don't recall where I read about the sizes of the original Kwans, but I also understood it to be because the MDK was the railroad Kwan.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 30, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> If anyone has an idea where numbers can be looked at, please share.  I had an interesting discussion with my student (ex-TSDer) about this recently and of course my 'competitive' nature made me insist the CDK was more numerous.



The actual records are probably going to be hard to find outside the organization and those that are found will probably controversial. Two things contribute to this, from what I have read on the matter. 

1. Hwang Kee or maybe a student of his, I can't remember off hand, had a house fire (maybe started by political opponents) and the early records were destroyed. This has led to all kinds of friction.
2. Blocks of low dan numbers were held in reserve for people and schools (my source said they were sold off) so this threw off the whole seniority aspect of the system. 

So, we can't know how many were lost or even if they track what they say they track. Which org is bigger based on this info? Dan numbers might not be the best way to answer this question.


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## dancingalone (Aug 30, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> So, we can't know how many were lost or even if they track what they say they track. Which org is bigger based on this info? Dan numbers might not be the best way to answer this question.



I am not surprised that this too is murky, but certainly would still be interested in any research that anyone has turned up.  The oral history I have always heard is that the CDK was the largest kwan and provided the largest number of instructors for the TKD movement.  I don't question the second part of that claim at all, but as we know some people assert the MDK actually had more members during the kwan days.


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