# Elliot Rodgers: a Bizarre Fact



## wingchun100 (May 28, 2014)

This is random, maybe even pointless, but I found it interesting.

On the way to work I was listening to them talk about the latest homicidal/suicidal maniac, Elliot Rodgers. They said there was an article written where the author blamed JUDD APATOW/SETH ROGEN movies for this guy's rampage. I don't know why; something to do with the fact that those movies are almost always about the goofy guy getting the hot girl.

What struck me as interesting about it is that they are blaming friggin' COMEDIES. It used to be "blame heavy metal, blame horror movies/novels, blame DOOM." Now we are pointing the finger at movies that are supposed to make us laugh and bring some kind of sunshine to break through the clouds of the insanity that is the modern world.


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## granfire (May 28, 2014)

Your Princess Is in Another Castle: Misogyny, Entitlement, and Nerds - The Daily Beast

you should read it.

A bit of the problem society is having is mirrored in this little problem:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/29-locker-room-bar-grill/114398-what-would-you-do.html

a bit obscured it seems by the 'bully factor' but in essence, the little girl is not being protected from weirdo boy forcing himself on her.


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## wingchun100 (May 28, 2014)

I'm not even going to touch on whether he was a weirdo or not. I'm just saying I have never seen a psycho's rampage get blamed on a comedy. That's all.


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## crushing (May 28, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> I'm not even going to touch on whether he was a weirdo or not. I'm just saying I have never seen a psycho's rampage get blamed on a comedy. That's all.



I still haven't seen it.  Who are the "they" in the OP, and what was the article?  Maybe you misunderstood them, or they misunderstood (or misrepresented) the article?


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## wingchun100 (May 28, 2014)

No mistake. I didn't catch the author name. I do know that Seth Rogen and Judd Apatow responded to it.


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## granfire (May 28, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> I'm not even going to touch on whether he was a weirdo or not. I'm just saying I have never seen a psycho's rampage get blamed on a comedy. That's all.



I think you missed it.
I mean it is easy to miss when you laugh.

The little things that look good in the movie or sound good in a song (Every Breath You Take - it's creepy stalkerish....)

I mean, why is it that we find the persistent advances of the precocious nerd so endearing? Just because he isn't creepy - yet? Otherwise you'd consider it stalking. 

Pop in and read #YesAllWomen. 
Nope, not all guys are a-holes. But pretty much every woman has at one point in her life encountered such a person who expected her to comply with his wishes for some reason or another, becoming upset when the expectations were not met. Of course not all were violent, but as a constant drip of water can hollow out stone, it is allowed to be perpetuated. 
Awe, how cute, the little boy bear hugging the little girl to give her a kiss....ah, she is just playing hard to get, saying no....

or as the saying goes: 'With a guy 'No' is the end of the discussion - with a woman it's the beginning of negotiations' 

Revenge of the Nerds is over 30 years old by now....and the myth that the nerd guy gets the girl is older than that. Ongoing conditioning. Sure, it's fiction, but how long can a mind resist the constant feeding of certain 'facts'? 

it's not like the guy assumes he has all the answers. Consider it the fruit of his thought process. 
The problem is like Ogres: It has many layers. He just peeled one away.

More food for thought. This article precedes the shooting by a few miles though:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/12/AR2006071201883.html


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## wingchun100 (May 28, 2014)

I read the article. I didn't miss anything. And again, I wasn't commenting on whether or not there is something to it...just that I have never heard of a comedy being blamed for anything like this. Although for the record, it isn't Seth Rogen's fault this guy's life didn't turn out the way a movie did. It's called "fiction" for a reason.


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## granfire (May 28, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> I read the article. I didn't miss anything. And again, I wasn't commenting on whether or not there is something to it...just that I have never heard of a comedy being blamed for anything like this. Although for the record, it isn't Seth Rogen's fault this guy's life didn't turn out the way a movie did. It's called "fiction" for a reason.



Yes. you missed it. 

No, it's not that comedy made him do it.
But the perpetuated tropes have their part in it, are pieces of the puzzle. 
Layers, like onions....peel them back. Be honest with yourself.


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## crushing (May 28, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> No mistake. I didn't catch the author name. I do know that Seth Rogen and Judd Apatow responded to it.



For anyone interested:

The article:

In a final videotaped message, a sad reflection of the sexist stories we so often see on screen - The Washington Post

Rogen and Apatow's response:

Seth Rogen and Judd Apatow: Don?t blame us for misogynistic massacre


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## wingchun100 (May 28, 2014)

granfire said:


> Yes. you missed it.



I hate to disagree, but I'm going to have to.  I don't think any woman owes me anything simply because a nerdy guy in a movie got the cheerleader just because he was persistent.


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## jks9199 (May 28, 2014)

The movies, tv shows, comic books and other pop culture (or even regular culture) tropes and set ups didn't cause nor do they excuse Rodgers's actions.  But they do contribute to unrealistic expectations or ideas which, in someone who's already messed up, may lead to such actions.  Not will, not must, but may.  It's an issue worth discussing and exploring so that perhaps we can change it.


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## aedrasteia (May 28, 2014)

Apology to WC if i drift this a little - not sure if this is new thread.
apologize also if this too long - 

specific, sometimes viscious ugliness about women (yeah and others too) seeps into all kinds of 'entertainment'.
people who point out the repulsive/not-very-funny are labeled prudes or humorless or delusional. noteasy to be on the receiving end, endlessly.  yeah - Tosh rape jokes, everybody else's rape joke. endless rape jokes. endless. rape. jokes. 

and even a guy like Apatow or rogan gets a 'hot' blond girl in the movie. the shooter felt entitled to 
one too.     Blame them? no. they made a fantasy-comedy. he thought he deserved it too 
and he had lots of help believing that.

anybody read the murderer's statements? - written 'manifesto'? see the videos?  
anybody access the PUA, hate women forums/websites? he's an outlier, but not by much.
And he's got fans, supporters - 'its about time somebody gave those cunts what they deserve'.
yes - he killed 3 men - and specifically selected them for their supposed 'success' with women
they didn't deserve. those stupid evil women.


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## granfire (May 28, 2014)

aedrasteia said:


> Apology to WC if i drift this a little - not sure if this is new thread.
> apologize also if this too long -
> 
> specific, sometimes viscious ugliness about women (yeah and others too) seeps into all kinds of 'entertainment'.
> ...




Sad but true. 
Talk to a woman - any woman - I am sure she will have a story about running into a flaming misogynist at one point in her life.
Now, mind you, not all know it when it happens - my friend in high school had no clue as to what a jerk that boy she was dating was. I am just glad they broke it off shortly after she (barely, thanks to that miserable human being) graduated high school. The boy had been trained from early on by his daddy dearest. Too bad that the new generation of women took less crap...

It's the things that don't register when it's 'normal behavior': Men looking at the body parts of a woman, not the face.
When another man does likewise to them, they feel violated (like stumbling into the notorious gay pick up spots late at night). It creeps them out. 

it's the little girls who are told how cute it is that the little boy tackles them to kiss them - against their will. The girls that are told they are mean to not go out on a date with that persistent guy. The list is endless. 

Life owes you nothing.
Not a girl, car, house with picket fence or the dog. Not one thing.


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## crushing (May 28, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> The movies, tv shows, comic books and other pop culture (or even regular culture) tropes and set ups didn't cause nor do they excuse Rodgers's actions.  But they do contribute to unrealistic expectations or ideas which, in someone who's already messed up, may lead to such actions.  Not will, not must, but may.  It's an issue worth discussing and exploring so that perhaps we can change it.



Such media may create a confirmation bias within an individual that has already been indoctrinated in the objectification of women and misogynous attitudes.  Such views of women can come about at an early age when authority figures compel belief in "truths" that women should submit and learn from men in silence and subjection and fear and that they are the source of ancestral sin.  As we have become more enlightened (some may claim hell-bound) we have moved away from from such antiquated and superstitious beliefs, but unfortunately, such beliefs still have quite a hold on minds of many.


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## Master Dan (May 28, 2014)

It is a proven fact that boys as they enter Puberty have homicidal thoughts and urges in development even Oedipus thoughts for their mother what controls that is a family basis structure and controls that fold in telling them no matter what stop!!!!! Parents MA training or Guardians are the only stop gap' Left to social media and non parents we are doomed. I ran a program with the worst teenage offenders who committed murder and violent crimes and the behavior health professional I worked with that taught me a lot said they could not sleep at nigh knowing they would one day be released and we and us would bed at risk


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## granfire (May 28, 2014)

Master Dan said:


> It is a proven fact that boys as they enter Puberty have homicidal thoughts and urges in development even Oedipus thoughts for their mother what controls that is a family basis structure and controls that fold in telling them no matter what stop!!!!! Parents MA training or Guardians are the only stop gap' Left to social media and non parents we are doomed. I ran a program with the worst teenage offenders who committed murder and violent crimes and the behavior health professional I worked with that taught me a lot said they could not sleep at nigh knowing they would one day be released and we and us would bed at risk



A) I am not sure I can agree with you on all points. I don't believe all males are homocidal maniacs, only reined in by the flimsy restrained of parenting. 

B) The behavior predates social media by centuries.

C) It's much more subtle than what you experienced.


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## Touch Of Death (May 28, 2014)

I think we can all agree their is plenty of blame to go around. Why pick just one thing?


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## granfire (May 28, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> I think we can all agree their is plenty of blame to go around. Why pick just one thing?



Just ask the women in your life. And when they tell you _listen!_
It's really that simple.


Killer Elliot Rodger's rants inspired #YesAllWomen tweets - CNN.com


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## ballen0351 (May 28, 2014)

granfire said:


> Just ask the women in your life. And when they tell you _listen!_
> It's really that simple.
> 
> 
> Killer Elliot Rodger's rants inspired #YesAllWomen tweets - CNN.com



Easy to find oppression when your activity trying to find it even when it's not there


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## jks9199 (May 28, 2014)

crushing said:


> Such media may create a confirmation bias within an individual that has already been indoctrinated in the objectification of women and misogynous attitudes.  Such views of women can come about at an early age when authority figures compel belief in "truths" that women should submit and learn from men in silence and subjection and fear and that they are the source of ancestral sin.  As we have become more enlightened (some may claim hell-bound) we have moved away from from such antiquated and superstitious beliefs, but unfortunately, such beliefs still have quite a hold on minds of many.



What struck me in one of the articles I read about this today was the number of outright sexual assaults and criminal sexual behaviors that are played for laughs or otherwise run off in movies.  Things like rape by disguise (_Revenge of the Nerds_), pimping of a girl so drunk as to be helpless (_Pretty in Pink_), stalking behaviors (several) played as eventually "winning" the girl's heart...  Several movies, when you think about it, are built on the premise of a girl having no worth except her looks...  or based on a girl essentially selling herself as at least an escort to boost a geeky guy's popularity (one example is _Can't Buy Me Love_).   How often does a TV show or movie or book glamorize a guy ignoring clear "No"s to force himself on a woman.  Folks... that's RAPE.  I'm not in agreement with the whole rape/fear industry out there -- but it shocked me when I started to think about how often we look at something on TV that's rape or sexual assault, and glamorize it.


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## granfire (May 28, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Easy to find oppression when your activity trying to find it even when it's not there



Take the fingers out of your ears.


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## MartialMellow (May 29, 2014)

Mr. Rodgers has had mental problems for many years.  One cannot blame a film genre.


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## Touch Of Death (May 29, 2014)

granfire said:


> Just ask the women in your life. And when they tell you _listen!_
> It's really that simple.
> 
> 
> Killer Elliot Rodger's rants inspired #YesAllWomen tweets - CNN.com


At that point they always sound like the teachers in the "Peanuts" cartoon, "Whaaaah, Whaah, Whhaaah....".


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## wingchun100 (May 29, 2014)

MartialMellow said:


> Mr. Rodgers has had mental problems for many years.  One cannot blame a film genre.



Thank God for the invention of movies. Now our murderers and rapists can lay the blame elsewhere. If they had caught Jack the Ripper, he would have been screwed. Why? No movies to blame it on!


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## wingchun100 (May 29, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> What struck me in one of the articles I read about this today was the number of outright sexual assaults and criminal sexual behaviors that are played for laughs or otherwise run off in movies.  Things like rape by disguise (_Revenge of the Nerds_), pimping of a girl so drunk as to be helpless (_Pretty in Pink_), stalking behaviors (several) played as eventually "winning" the girl's heart...  Several movies, when you think about it, are built on the premise of a girl having no worth except her looks...  or based on a girl essentially selling herself as at least an escort to boost a geeky guy's popularity (one example is _Can't Buy Me Love_).   How often does a TV show or movie or book glamorize a guy ignoring clear "No"s to force himself on a woman.  Folks... that's RAPE.  I'm not in agreement with the whole rape/fear industry out there -- but it shocked me when I started to think about how often we look at something on TV that's rape or sexual assault, and glamorize it.



I agree with you there. One article described a scene in REVENGE OF THE NERDS where the nerd pretends to be a jock, then reveals his face. I can't imagine that would fly over well with a female in REAL life.

And there's the difference: REAL life vs. REEL life. It's a damn shame that some people can't tell the difference, but you CANNOT hold writers/actors/directors responsible for not knowing their movie will trigger some maniac that they have never met. That's all I was trying to say with this post. Instead it has turned into a feminist rant about how we are all closet rapists for watching these movies or TV shows.


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## jks9199 (May 29, 2014)

MartialMellow said:


> Mr. Rodgers has had mental problems for many years.  One cannot blame a film genre.



The movies, tv shows, etc. didn't make him do this.  Nor are they responsible for it.  But some of the stuff presented and seeds planted may have contributed or perhaps steered someone who was already off-kilter.

Violent movies and video games don't make people become violent -- but they can condition people to be MORE violent or more comfortable with violence.  Exposure to sexually themed tv or movies doesn't make people go out and have sex -- but it can prime the pump or make things seem more normal that aren't.  Painting a picture that it's OK to disguise yourself to sleep with a girl who thinks she's in bed with someone else, or that if you're only persistent enough, the girl'll come around for the geek she's not interested in...  Yep, it can make someone who already has a problem with his self-image feel even more inadequate.


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## jks9199 (May 29, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> I agree with you there. One article described a scene in REVENGE OF THE NERDS where the nerd pretends to be a jock, then reveals his face. I can't imagine that would fly over well with a female in REAL life.
> 
> And there's the difference: REAL life vs. REEL life. It's a damn shame that some people can't tell the difference, but you CANNOT hold writers/actors/directors responsible for not knowing their movie will trigger some maniac that they have never met. That's all I was trying to say with this post. Instead it has turned into a feminist rant about how we are all closet rapists for watching these movies or TV shows.



That's not exactly what I'm trying to say.  I don't think that every guy who got a grin out of the geek getting the girl secretly wanted to do the same thing, any more than they might all want to burn the building down and steal millions like in *Office Space*.  I'm certainly not saying that the entertainment industry is responsible for the actions of this guy or anyone else.  But do they maybe have a duty or obligation to consider the broader aspect of what they portray?  And do we, as the consumer, perhaps have a duty to step back, and think, and question whether we really want to watch rapes and stalking?  Or at least to make sure that our kids and others don't put up with it?

Why have a lot of the racist jokes dropped out of regular consciousness?


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## wingchun100 (May 29, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> The movies, tv shows, etc. didn't make him do this.  Nor are they responsible for it.  But some of the stuff presented and seeds planted may have contributed or perhaps steered someone who was already off-kilter.
> 
> Violent movies and video games don't make people become violent -- but they can condition people to be MORE violent or more comfortable with violence.  Exposure to sexually themed tv or movies doesn't make people go out and have sex -- but it can prime the pump or make things seem more normal that aren't.  Painting a picture that it's OK to disguise yourself to sleep with a girl who thinks she's in bed with someone else, or that if you're only persistent enough, the girl'll come around for the geek she's not interested in...  Yep, it can make someone who already has a problem with his self-image feel even more inadequate.



Well if we take that stance, then we might as well not make movies anymore EVER because we cannot possibly know what scene would trigger some already-unstable personality.


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## ballen0351 (May 29, 2014)

granfire said:


> Take the fingers out of your ears.



As soon as you stop looking for the boogie man behind every opened door and friendly male smile


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## wingchun100 (May 29, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> As soon as you stop looking for the boogie man behind every opened door and friendly male smile



No matter how friendly a guy is, once he disagrees with her assessment that we are all immature rapists/murderers who take what we want when a woman tells us "no," then we are just another boogie man. Basically, all men are scum and we should all walk around groveling all the time asking for forgiveness (which will never come, by the way) for what scum we are.

You know what? I'm glad this site has an ignore list.


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## Tgace (May 29, 2014)

We have to be careful...any male trying to discuss the politics of the feminist movement risks automatic listing onto the roster of the "he-man women haters club".


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## wingchun100 (May 29, 2014)

Tgace said:


> We have to be careful...any male trying to discuss the politics of the feminist movement risks automatic listing onto the roster of the "he-man women haters club".



LOL For some reason you just made me think of a quote from Mark Lanegan, lead singer of the Screaming Trees. They were asked to play on the 1996 Lollapalooza tour, which also featured Metallica and Soundgarden. He referred to it as the "hairy balled he-man tour."

Sorry, the "he-man" was what caused the tenuous connection in my brain.


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## Tgace (May 29, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> LOL For some reason you just made me think of a quote from Mark Lanegan, lead singer of the Screaming Trees. They were asked to play on the 1996 Lollapalooza tour, which also featured Metallica and Soundgarden. He referred to it as the "hairy balled he-man tour."
> 
> Sorry, the "he-man" was what caused the tenuous connection in my brain.


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## elder999 (May 29, 2014)

I'm sorry-has anyone looked at this guy's video?

That guy was pretty good looking, and articulate-he should have been able to get laid plenty in California.....

I'd posit-given that as a nerd, and a not-particularly good looking one, I still got my fair share of girls in H.S. and college-that it wasn't nerdiness or unattractiveness that kept him from finding companionship.

Dude was a creep, I'm sure-you can be all kinds of odd, and get all kinds of girlds: wear a kilt all the time, even if you're black. Ride a velocipede. Cosxplay, ren-fair, rocket club, ham radio, build catapults-don't matter much to women, as long as you know how to be nice, and don't smell too-bad. 

Creep 'em out, though? That's the ultimate in birth-control.


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## wingchun100 (May 29, 2014)

elder999 said:


> I'm sorry-has anyone looked at this guy's video?
> 
> That guy was pretty good looking, and articulate-he should have been able to get laid plenty in California.....
> 
> ...



And unfortunately, most creeps don't KNOW they are creeps. Even if a woman tells them flat out, they think she is just being a princess. I know a guy who told me this story: he had a female friend that he met in college. They got along great. He enjoyed talking with her SO MUCH that he found out her entire class schedule...and then showed up to wait for her outside every class so they could chat as they walked to the next one. (I can only imagine her body language as they strolled!) At the conclusion of his story, he said, "She suddenly stopped talking to me. I never found out why!"

I knew why, but I didn't want to tell him. Instead I made an excuse to leave the area, and then *I* never talked to him again either!


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## granfire (May 29, 2014)

granfire said:


> Take the fingers out of your ears.





Touch Of Death said:


> At that point they always sound like the teachers in the "Peanuts" cartoon, "Whaaaah, Whaah, Whhaaah....".





wingchun100 said:


> Thank God for the invention of movies. Now our murderers and rapists can lay the blame elsewhere. If they had caught Jack the Ripper, he would have been screwed. Why? No movies to blame it on!





wingchun100 said:


> Well if we take that stance, then we might as well not make movies anymore EVER because we cannot possibly know what scene would trigger some already-unstable personality.





ballen0351 said:


> As soon as you stop looking for the boogie man behind every opened door and friendly male smile





wingchun100 said:


> No matter how friendly a guy is, once he disagrees with her assessment that we are all immature rapists/murderers who take what we want when a woman tells us "no," then we are just another boogie man. Basically, all men are scum and we should all walk around groveling all the time asking for forgiveness (which will never come, by the way) for what scum we are.
> 
> *You know what? I'm glad this site has an ignore list*.




Didn't take long to get a collection of these together.....

Especially the last one is a gem.

You don't like what you read, so put the poster on ignore which is the forum equivalent to putting your fingers in your ears.....

Need I say more?

A lot of talk, gentlemen, but nobody listens. 
I know at least one of you is married, but have you bothered to ask the women in your life if they never came across an entitled creeper?

There is a lot going on that does not make the police reports.
Heck, there is a lot going on that the best friend won't be told until years later!


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## Touch Of Death (May 29, 2014)

granfire said:


> Didn't take long to get a collection of these together.....
> 
> Especially the last one is a gem.
> 
> ...



I have dated some entitled creepers, and oddly enough they were women.


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## wingchun100 (May 29, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> I have dated some entitled creepers, and oddly enough they were women.




Thank you! I forgot to mention the time when I broke up with this one girlfriend, who then proceeded to take a cab from where she lived to my house (no joke, probably came to a $100 ride) and then, when I told her it was over and didn't have more to say to her, she started screaming "RAPE!!!!" when it was midnight, and I had elderly downstairs neighbors.


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## wingchun100 (May 29, 2014)

So if someone doesn't agree with you, it means they are sticking their fingers in their ears simply because they don't like what you have to say. Well, when all you have to do is spew the same anti-male message over and over again, you're right...I DON'T want to hear it. If all men were evil psychopaths, then why would there be male officers and lawyers whose job it is to LOCK UP the "entitled creepers" that they catch before it's too late?


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## Touch Of Death (May 29, 2014)

Abandonment issues are always fun. They sit and dream of ways to force you to abandon them.


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## wingchun100 (May 29, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> Abandonment issues are always fun. They sit and dream of ways to force you to abandon them.



Now THAT is a good one!


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## granfire (May 29, 2014)

aight:

Do you teach your sons they mustn't go topless, wear shorts lest they get raped?

Does your mere existence invite raunchy behavior, eluding to the 'fact' you are expected to 'want it' and should perform?

(I am assuming the juvenile jokes are accompanied by the uneasy laughter that follows when caught in the wrong...)

Carry on.


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## Touch Of Death (May 29, 2014)

granfire said:


> aight:
> 
> 
> 
> Does your mere existence invite raunchy behavior, eluding to the 'fact' you are expected to 'want it' and should perform?


Dated her too.


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## Steve (May 29, 2014)

I think, Granfire, that there is a disconnect here.  It seems (correct me if I'm wrong) that you believe that we (men) don't believe that there are creeps out there.  Also, it seems that you believe that we fail to understand that our wives, sisters, daughters have to deal with these creeps from time to time.  Let me assure you that the opposite is true.  As a group, I feel safe saying that we are well aware that there are creeps out there, and are quite sure that our female loved ones have to deal with them.   In fact, a guy is a creep until he demonstrates otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, particularly where my daughter is involved.   

AND I think we all agree that most men are not creeps.  

For what it's worth, the behavior you're ascribing to all men is distasteful, and I wonder why you think that because some men do these things, all men do them.


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## granfire (May 29, 2014)

Steve said:


> I think, Granfire, that there is a disconnect here.  It seems (correct me if I'm wrong) that you believe that we (men) don't believe that there are creeps out there.  Also, it seems that you believe that we fail to understand that our wives, sisters, daughters have to deal with these creeps from time to time.  Let me assure you that the opposite is true.  As a group, I feel safe saying that we are well aware that there are creeps out there, and are quite sure that our female loved ones have to deal with them.   In fact, a guy is a creep until he demonstrates otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, particularly where my daughter is involved.
> 
> AND I think we all agree that most men are not creeps.
> 
> For what it's worth, the behavior you're ascribing to all men is distasteful, and I wonder why you think that because some men do these things, all men do them.



No, I think that you guys are unaware of the creep parts within your own behavior.

It's ok, we have these parts we don't know we have.

What is rather saddening (even more so because it does not come as surprise) are the staunch defenses some throw up.
And I am not talking about the knuckle dragging neanderthals who made fan pages for the shooter on FB, but 'the good guys' 

You know, the guys who don't see the little snides here and their, think it's perfectly fine to dismiss a woman by looks vs merit. 
The people who se nothing wrong with the little boy forcing himself on the little girl on the play ground, who blame the school girls for the shootings (yes, plural) because they didn't put out. (lets not forget, we also shun girls who do, because they are sluts, not worth of protection)

I asked Ballen to ask his wife if she ever heard any of this misogynist crap. 
'of course, she was a cop'
Oh, mate...I am sure she heard worse than he ever had, because, well, she's a gal. 

But don't take my word for it. Bother to read the twitter feed. 

You got little girls that need guidance. It's difficult in these times. As a gal, you are damned if you do, damned if you don't. 

You won't have to tach your boy he should not go topless lest he be raped.
The rape prevention education is largely one sided. 
Yes, I know, boys can get raped as well, but nobody really looks there, right. Not even cop and rape preventionists. 

We have to work on ourselves (does tis come as a surprise to a member of a martial arts forum?) to be a better person than we were yesterday. 
If we don't listen to the world around us, we won't.

Somewhere I suppose it is funny when a guy says 'women sound like the adults in the peanuts' just not in this context, or ever, really. It ain't my fault he can't pick a mate worth a flip. Do I have to endure his wrath?


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## Touch Of Death (May 29, 2014)

granfire said:


> No, I think that you guys are unaware of the creep parts within your own behavior.
> 
> It's ok, we have these parts we don't know we have.
> 
> ...


Oh? Was I yelling?


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## Tgace (May 29, 2014)

Wait...so instead of teaching people how to avoid getting mugged we should have been teaching muggers that its wrong to mug? Who knew??

Sure a woman "should" be able to walk the streets topless and not have people treat her any different than a shirtless man.

I should be able to leave all my life savings on the front lawn and not expect someone to take it too.

What world do people think they are living in? 

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## Steve (May 29, 2014)

granfire said:


> No, I think that you guys are unaware of the creep parts within your own behavior.


What do I do that's creepy, granfire?  Please.  Enlighten me.  What about ballen, tgace, elder or wingchun100?  What do they do that is creepy?  What are their "creep parts?"


> It's ok, we have these parts we don't know we have.


I think you need to be specific.  Your vague allusions are creating what i think is intentional confusion.  





> What is rather saddening (even more so because it does not come as surprise) are the staunch defenses some throw up.


By people here?





> And I am not talking about the knuckle dragging neanderthals who made fan pages for the shooter on FB, but 'the good guys'


Who are the good guys?  I'm completely lost.  





> You know, the guys who don't see the little snides here and their, think it's perfectly fine to dismiss a woman by looks vs merit.


Us?  Guys here?  Which guys?  Who the heck are you talking about?





> The people who se nothing wrong with the little boy forcing himself on the little girl on the play ground, who blame the school girls for the shootings (yes, plural) because they didn't put out. (lets not forget, we also shun girls who do, because they are sluts, not worth of protection)


Where are these guys?  Are they around here?  I'm lost.  I'm sure that guys like this exist.  So, then what's your point?  Are you saying that people here endorse that behavior?  That we behave in such a way?  





> I asked Ballen to ask his wife if she ever heard any of this misogynist crap.
> 'of course, she was a cop'
> Oh, mate...I am sure she heard worse than he ever had, because, well, she's a gal.


I asked my wife, and she thinks you're completely out in left field.  She's dealt with sexists before, but nothing like you insist all women deal with all the time.  She's never been stalked, creeped out or treated poorly or disadvantaged because of her gender, according to her.  

I'll ask my teenage daughter tonight, but I can tell you  that, despite my insistence to the contrary, she doesn't agree that all men are pigs, either.   As far as I'm concerned, any guy she dates is a creep until proven otherwise.   And, before you ask, the same goes for my son.  He's got a knack for picking out creeps.  





> But don't take my word for it. Bother to read the twitter feed.
> 
> You got little girls that need guidance. It's difficult in these times. As a gal, you are damned if you do, damned if you don't.


Being quite honest here, it seems that in this thread, you're only damned if you have a penis.  There is literally no way a guy could say or do anything right in this thread.  Agree with you?  Damned.  Disagree?  Double damned.  


> You won't have to tach your boy he should not go topless lest he be raped.
> The rape prevention education is largely one sided.
> Yes, I know, boys can get raped as well, but nobody really looks there, right. Not even cop and rape preventionists.
> 
> ...


This part I agree with.  We all have to work on ourselves to try and be better people tomorrow than we were today.





> Somewhere I suppose it is funny when a guy says 'women sound like the adults in the peanuts' just not in this context, or ever, really. It ain't my fault he can't pick a mate worth a flip. Do I have to endure his wrath?


I don't know what this means.


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## jks9199 (May 29, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> I have dated some entitled creepers, and oddly enough they were women.



Yep, there are women out there who can be creepy and stalkerish.  But I don't think we've hidden the issue the same way.  You start describing movies & TV with stalker/scary women, and you don't get teen comedies.  You get *Fatal Attraction* or *Single White Female*.  Occasionally, you get a guy pursued by the oddball girl... but even that's usually played real lightly.  ETA: Just thought of one example; Rose in *Two and Half Men*.


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## ballen0351 (May 29, 2014)

granfire said:


> No, I think that you guys are unaware of the creep parts within your own behavior.


I dont have creep parts.  I have Jerk parts but Ill expose my jerk parts to Steve just as fast as I will to you.  


> It's ok, we have these parts we don't know we have.


everyone but you apparently....I seem to recall you using some colorful language to describe other woman on your horse forums 


> What is rather saddening (even more so because it does not come as surprise) are the staunch defenses some throw up.
> And I am not talking about the knuckle dragging neanderthals who made fan pages for the shooter on FB, but 'the good guys'


You wont see me defending this guy nor have I seen anyone else defend him maybe the problem is the company you keep 


> You know, the guys who don't see the little snides here and their, think it's perfectly fine to dismiss a woman by looks vs merit.


Who?  what guys?


> The people who se nothing wrong with the little boy forcing himself on the little girl on the play ground, who blame the school girls for the shootings (yes, plural) because they didn't put out. (lets not forget, we also shun girls who do, because they are sluts, not worth of protection)


Who?  Not me or anyone I know again you might want to look at the company you keep


> I asked Ballen to ask his wife if she ever heard any of this misogynist crap.
> 'of course, she was a cop'
> Oh, mate...I am sure she heard worse than he ever had, because, well, she's a gal.


And you would be wrong.  For the most part others treated her with respect.  Woman cops in general are not treated any worse then men.  The worst treatment a group of officers I've ever seen are black males 


> But don't take my word for it. Bother to read the twitter feed.


what twitterfeed?


> You got little girls that need guidance. It's difficult in these times. As a gal, you are damned if you do, damned if you don't.
> 
> You won't have to tach your boy he should not go topless lest he be raped.


non-sense


> The rape prevention education is largely one sided.
> Yes, I know, boys can get raped as well, but nobody really looks there, right. Not even cop and rape preventionists.


again non-sense  I can show you a large rape prevention poster directed at males Ill take a picture of it next time Im there if you would like.  However statics show more woman are raped then men.  Rape prevention is "one sided" because the rapist goes to prison you dont educate them you imprison them.


> We have to work on ourselves (does tis come as a surprise to a member of a martial arts forum?) to be a better person than we were yesterday.
> If we don't listen to the world around us, we won't.


True but we should focus on fixing actual problems to work on


> Somewhere I suppose it is funny when a guy says 'women sound like the adults in the peanuts' just not in this context, or ever, really. It ain't my fault he can't pick a mate worth a flip. Do I have to endure his wrath?


Im not even sure what that means


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## jks9199 (May 29, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> And unfortunately, most creeps don't KNOW they are creeps. Even if a woman tells them flat out, they think she is just being a princess. I know a guy who told me this story: he had a female friend that he met in college. They got along great. He enjoyed talking with her SO MUCH that he found out her entire class schedule...and then showed up to wait for her outside every class so they could chat as they walked to the next one. (I can only imagine her body language as they strolled!) At the conclusion of his story, he said, "She suddenly stopped talking to me. I never found out why!"
> 
> I knew why, but I didn't want to tell him. Instead I made an excuse to leave the area, and then *I* never talked to him again either!



At one job, I worked with a guy who was, at least in regard to women, dumb as a rock, and about as dense as plutonium.  He was moved from site to site within the company (I forget why he was kept, but I suspect it was a highly placed relative) because a woman would be nice to him -- and he'd misunderstand it and interpret it too strongly as interest.  And then he'd be around her all the time... until she complained, and he was reassigned.  Today, I suspect he wouldn't have kept his job, no matter who he was related to.  At least not after the second time.

I do agree; Rodgers was probably pretty high on the creep-out scale, and that was his problem.  Or he was so socially clueless that he didn't know how to approach a girl.  Don't know.  I'm not blaming movies or TV for his actions... but I do find myself asking if what he saw in TV and movies didn't shape his expectations.  I KNOW it can -- because people have entirely unrealistic expectations for forensic science thanks to shows like *CSI*.  (Not to mention people's beliefs about the martial arts as shaped by popular culture...)


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## jks9199 (May 29, 2014)

Steve said:


> I think, Granfire, that there is a disconnect here.  It seems (correct me if I'm wrong) that you believe that we (men) don't believe that there are creeps out there.  Also, it seems that you believe that we fail to understand that our wives, sisters, daughters have to deal with these creeps from time to time.  Let me assure you that the opposite is true.  As a group, I feel safe saying that we are well aware that there are creeps out there, and are quite sure that our female loved ones have to deal with them.   In fact, a guy is a creep until he demonstrates otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, particularly where my daughter is involved.
> 
> AND I think we all agree that most men are not creeps.
> 
> For what it's worth, the behavior you're ascribing to all men is distasteful, and I wonder why you think that because some men do these things, all men do them.



The definition of a blind spot (in this usage) is that it's something you can't see in yourself until and unless someone else points it out.  And sometimes not even then.  Like I said... it hadn't dawned on me until I read that article which I mentioned that some of those funny nerd/geek revenge scenes were rape.  Or sexual harassment or stalking.  It was a blind spot.

Let me be absolutely clear -- I am not blaming TV, movies, and popular culture for Rodgers, or any other recent spree or mass killer incident.  But popular culture certainly influences and shapes people's behaviors.  How much, and if we want to or even have a responsibility to consider that in what we produce or support, is a discussion worth having.


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## ballen0351 (May 30, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> Let me be absolutely clear -- I am not blaming TV, movies, and popular culture for Rodgers, or any other recent spree or mass killer incident.  But popular culture certainly influences and shapes people's behaviors.  How much, and if we want to or even have a responsibility to consider that in what we produce or support, is a discussion worth having.



When viewed in this way, our responses to the school shooters looks juvenile in comparison. Can you imagine arguing over whether misogyny made Osama Bin Laden plan September 11th? Or whether video games caused Dhokhar Tsarnaev to plant bombs at the Boston Marathon? Or whether heavy music inspired Timothy McVeigh to blow up the federal building in Oklahoma City?

You would be laughed at
And in fact, when anyone goes as far as to suggest that Islam causes terrorism, they are immediately and rightfully scolded for it. Yet when it comes to school shootings, these types of discussions are not only tolerated, but engaged in willfully.

It&#8217;s not that we should respond to school shootings the same way we respond to terrorist attacks. It&#8217;s that we already do. We just don&#8217;t realize it.

How We All Miss the Point on School Shootings


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## Tgace (May 30, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> When viewed in this way, our responses to the school shooters looks juvenile in comparison. Can you imagine arguing over whether misogyny made Osama Bin Laden plan September 11th? Or whether video games caused Dhokhar Tsarnaev to plant bombs at the Boston Marathon? Or whether heavy music inspired Timothy McVeigh to blow up the federal building in Oklahoma City?
> 
> You would be laughed at
> And in fact, when anyone goes as far as to suggest that Islam causes terrorism, they are immediately and rightfully scolded for it. Yet when it comes to school shootings, these types of discussions are not only tolerated, but engaged in willfully.
> ...



...and when Bill posts an opinion regarding the political leanings of a film, or implies that movie producers have political agendas he is roundly scorned and told that there is no such influence. After all "its only entertainment".

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2


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## wingchun100 (May 30, 2014)

Ah, the beauty of interpretation. People can read anything into any story/song/movie they want. You write a poem about waiting for the bus on a city street corner. Next thing you know, someone is interpreting it as an expression of repressed homosexual feelings you have...for your own father. Let's face it, folks: maybe some things have multiple meanings, but I still believe you can reach a point where a person is STRETCHING an interpretation to fit their needs.


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## EddieCyrax (May 30, 2014)

Personal responsibility. Morals. Integrity.

All individual traits. I get exposed to all sorts of simuli every day....funny how I have never once thought to attack, force myself, or randomly kill anyone (male or female).

I find it a cop out when anyone blame inappropriate behavior on media outlets.

Bottom line the guy had mental issues, no moral compass, and thank your god he is no longer on the planet. At least he did that part right.

I told myself last night I would not waste anymore time in this type of conversation today.....and now I am going to step off the box.

Again "granfire", I wish you well.....I do not know you or the world you live in..... I hope someday you find peace and trust in your fellow humans....


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## Instructor (May 30, 2014)

granfire said:


> I think you missed it.
> I mean it is easy to miss when you laugh.
> 
> The little things that look good in the movie or sound good in a song (Every Breath You Take - it's creepy stalkerish....)
> ...



I would just like to say that I am a geek and my wife is a very cool and beautiful woman who could have her pick of men.  Not sure why she chose me but I sure am glad she did.


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## jks9199 (May 30, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> When viewed in this way, our responses to the school shooters looks juvenile in comparison. Can you imagine arguing over whether misogyny made Osama Bin Laden plan September 11th? Or whether video games caused Dhokhar Tsarnaev to plant bombs at the Boston Marathon? Or whether heavy music inspired Timothy McVeigh to blow up the federal building in Oklahoma City?
> 
> You would be laughed at
> And in fact, when anyone goes as far as to suggest that Islam causes terrorism, they are immediately and rightfully scolded for it. Yet when it comes to school shootings, these types of discussions are not only tolerated, but engaged in willfully.
> ...



I don't know how much clearer I can be.  Rodgers, Lanza, Cho, Michael Kennedy, and all the rest are individually responsible for their actions.  Absolutely, and totally.  So are Muhammad and Malvo.  Nor do I think that video games, movies, or anything else ALONE can make someone into a killer.  They started out seriously effed up.  Rodgers's screwed up beliefs about what he should have were his problem, and only provided an internal justification and excuse for him to justify his actions.  His problems started and ended up with HIM.

But that doesn't mean the simple discussion of whether the images we're putting out there are what we want.  Do you really want rape portrayed as justifiable revenge?  Stalking as a good way to get a girl?  I've read accounts by male and female cosplayers (the folks who have a lot of fun running around in rather extreme, and sometimes extremely revealing, costumes of or inspired by cartoons, anime, science fiction, and the like) of the outright harassment and abuse they put up with.  Isn't it at least reasonable, whatever inspired it, to look at what effect popular culture is having on people?

But let's not stop there.  What about the mental health system?  It certainly failed Rodgers, who had access (I presume) to much more extensive services than many people.  I've had a few discussions lately inspired by a tragedy near me where police officers were forced to shoot a suicidal young man.  Lanza, Cho, and Rodgers, at least, off the top of my head, all had some sort of diagnosed mental condition.  Virginia state Senator Creigh Deeds's son was certainly failed by our mental health system that couldn't find him a treatment bed when he needed it; this failure almost cost the senator his life, and did cost him his son.


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