# Tang Soo Do Root Identification



## dancingalone

There seems to be an undercurrent to identify TSD back to Okinawan karate rather than Japanese karate.  True or false?

A new studio owner in town described his art to me as a Korean reblending of Okinawan karate.  It's not the first time, I've heard such a descriptor.


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## Makalakumu

That is the sentiment.  A major effort was made to erase any connection to Japanese karate because of the Korean bias toward Japan after the war.  TSD, however, is derived from Shotokan.  It's founders trained in that style and NOT Okinawan karate.


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## DMcHenry

The last ones to use the term TSD were Hwang Kee of the Moo Duk Kwan and it's derivitives.  I don't believe GM Hwang ever studied Shoto Kan.  His original style of Hwa Soo Do was derived from training in Chinese arts.  He has written that he picked up the forms from a book in Okanawan Karate out of a library.

Some other founders such as Won Kuk Lee who was the first to open a Tang Soo Do dojang did actually study Shoto Kan, but that art was later changed to Tae Kwon Do.

I guess with Shoto Kan's founder having learned Okanawan Karate it's not a hard stretch, but how far back do you go?

A good example of TSD being closer to Japanese Shoto Kan than Okanawan is look at the basic form set - Pyungan Chodan is similar to the Japanese ShotoKan Heian Shodan, but in Okanawan Karate it is Pinan Nidan, and visa versa for Pyunan Edan is like Heian Nidan but is the first Pinan Shodan kata.  The first 2 kata are reversed between Okanawan and Japanese arts - and TSD follows the Japanese art.


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## Makalakumu

Hwang Kee was a student of Won Kuk Lee (WKL earned a nidan in the art).  HK had about a year and a half of training with WKL before branching out on his own.


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## DMcHenry

I've never heard that before, just rumers HK did train for a little while (maybe 6 months?) with WKL and achieved green belt.  {shrug} who knows for sure...


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## Makalakumu

DMcHenry said:


> I've never heard that before, just rumers HK did train for a little while (maybe 6 months?) with WKL and achieved green belt.  {shrug} who knows for sure...



The rumors come from an interview with WKL where he states that HK was part of the CDK and trained at the dojo for about a year and a half.  Then he went off on his own and started teaching TSD MDK.


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## dancingalone

maunakumu said:


> The rumors come from an interview with WKL where he states that HK was part of the CDK and trained at the dojo for about a year and a half.  Then he went off on his own and started teaching TSD MDK.



Hmm, even if true HK couldn't have been happy about WKL publicizing it.


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## Makalakumu

dancingalone said:


> Hmm, even if true HK couldn't have been happy about WKL publicizing it.



It's a "dark secret" of TSD.  There were active efforts, years ago, to completely erase the Japanese Origins of the art and the fact that HK learned some of his hyung from books.  All sorts of stories were concocted.  

I wrote a book that details this and the origin of the art from the best resources that I could find.  Hopefully, in the future, we can use these resources to better understand the objectives of what we are doing.


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## MasterPistella

According to Dr. Paik (Ki Whang Kim's senior student) they "trained together" Meaning KWK, HK, LWK, BJR and others. Neither was teacher, neither was student. They shared what they knew with each other freely. This is also how the forms SRJK came into the MDK curriculum & in exchange HK had his people sponsor KWK to come to the US under the TSD flag.  & the way it has it's roots back to Okinawa.....Gichin Funikoshi studies martial arts in Okinawa. Kara te used to mean China Hand. The Japanese changed it to make it more their own. Now means empty hand.


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## dancingalone

MasterPistella said:


> According to Dr. Paik (Ki Whang Kim's senior student) they "trained together" Meaning KWK, HK, LWK, BJR and others. Neither was teacher, neither was student. They shared what they knew with each other freely. This is also how the forms SRJK came into the MDK curriculum & in exchange HK had his people sponsor KWK to come to the US under the TSD flag.  & the way it has it's roots back to Okinawa.....Gichin Funikoshi studies martial arts in Okinawa. Kara te used to mean China Hand. The Japanese changed it to make it more their own. Now means empty hand.



But, LWK apparently considered HK to be his student if he awarded him a green belt?

The Funakoshi link is a tenuous one if one is trying to make the case that TSD approximates Okinawan karate.  Effectively, the type of karate that was transmitted to men like LWK was already Nippon-ized with all the changes Funakoshi and his students made.


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## MasterPistella

There is no verifiable proof he ever gave HK a green belt. He did however help HK hone his skills with the pyong ahn forms as far as the transition moves. So did BJR who was also a dan holder under Funakoshi. I'm not denying that it is a more Nippon-ized version, but the books he learned from were before many of the changes were made. The way he got the later information from Lee, Ro, & the others was after the changes were made. The "evolution" if you will of Funakoshi's original work. Just pointing out how the link to Okinawa can be made. BJR told the Choi brothers (Joon Pyo & Young Pyo) back in 1972 if I remember right that his instructor was Funakoshi & to never deny that Shotokan is their "big brother". If one really wants to stretch it, they can say the influence was from China since it was the Chinese immigrants  who introduced the martial arts to Okinawa. But I'm not that flexible. lol


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## tellner

I'm afraid it's true. There have been several researchers, notably Dakin Burdick, who pretty thoroughly uncovered the undeniable Japanese origins of Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do. It's what the "Masters of the Original Kwans" had learned aside from one who may have had some Chinese martial arts background. The Japanese really did wipe out just about all of Korean martial arts culture. What they left were Judo, Karate and Kendo which were later Koreanised into Yudo, TKD/TSD and Gumdo. 

Most Koreans would rather die than admit it, but that's the plodding, literal, scientific Western truth of the matter.


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## MasterPistella

I guess I've been lucky to train under some progressive instructors. Master G S Ko (GM C S Kim's brother-in-law) told me of the Okinawan/Japanese influence as far back  as 1982. He even kept a copy of "This is Karate" by Mas Oyama on the book case in his office. During a test in 2001 one of the sa dan candidates answered HK when asked "who developed the Gi Cho forms?" GM Pak chastised him for repeating propaganda & explained where they really came from.

Do I blame the older Masters for not wanting to admit the Japanese influence? No, we would have probably done the same thing if our country were treated the way Korea was. As a people who were never subjugated, we can't understand the  mindset they have. But since Japan just announced it will stand behind South Korea with the proof North Korea sank their Navy vessel, I think some old feeling might be getting set aside some more.


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## dancingalone

MasterPistella said:


> There is no verifiable proof he ever gave HK a green belt. He did however help HK hone his skills with the pyong ahn forms as far as the transition moves. So did BJR who was also a dan holder under Funakoshi. I'm not denying that it is a more Nippon-ized version, but the books he learned from were before many of the changes were made. The way he got the later information from Lee, Ro, & the others was after the changes were made. The "evolution" if you will of Funakoshi's original work. Just pointing out how the link to Okinawa can be made. BJR told the Choi brothers (Joon Pyo & Young Pyo) back in 1972 if I remember right that his instructor was Funakoshi & to never deny that Shotokan is their "big brother". If one really wants to stretch it, they can say the influence was from China since it was the Chinese immigrants  who introduced the martial arts to Okinawa. But I'm not that flexible. lol



<shrugs> I'm an Okinawan karate man myself, although I've flirted early on with the Korean systems.  I've never run into a TSD federation that teaches formal partner sets or emphasized body conditioning with the old tools the way Okinawan systems do.  There's also kobudo to consider before we even get to the thorny topic of bunkai.

I'm not knocking tang soo do at all, but these attributes are what distinguish Okinawan karate from Japanese karate.  And tang soo do generally follow the line of Japanese karate in these aspects too.  

I understand the cultural wish to de-link from Japanese culture if one is Korean.  Respectfully, I don't see why Westerners would want to repeat the same myths though like this fellow did.

By the way, is there any documentation that  BJR actually studied with  Funakoshi.  I thought no certificates or rosters survived that ever listed any Korean on the Japanese rolls with the exception of Byung In Yoon being acknowledged as a 4th dan by Kanken Toyama.


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## Brother John

tellner said:


> I'm afraid it's true.* There have been several researchers, notably Dakin Burdick, who pretty thoroughly uncovered the undeniable Japanese origins of Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do*. It's what the "Masters of the Original Kwans" had learned aside from one who may have had some Chinese martial arts background. *The Japanese really did wipe out just about all of Korean martial arts culture.* What they left were Judo, Karate and Kendo which were later Koreanised into Yudo, TKD/TSD and Gumdo.
> 
> Most Koreans would rather die than admit it, but that's the plodding, literal, scientific Western truth of the matter.


 That's what I'd read too.
I trained for sometime in TSD/MDK and later in college I studied Shotokan for a time. VERY similar in many respects, except for a stronger emphasis on kicks in the TSD/MDK.

Your Brother
John


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## MasterPistella

I don't think it's a matter or WANTING to repeat the "lies" if you will, but only repeating what you have been taught. If a child is taught something is school that is wrong and grows up hearing that year after year is he lying when he repeats it? To him, no, it's not a lie. I see it more as people are just repeating what they have been told. Don't forget, when Funakoshi brought his art to Japan, it was mostly to be used in the school system for kids so they dropped most of the bunkai teachings. Unfortunately, that loss transfered on the TSD. Funny you should mention BIY. A deal was made between HK & KWK that if KWK got BIY to teach HK his Sip Pal Gi, KWK could be sponsored to come to America. That's how SRJK, SHY, & JK came into the original MDK curriculum. & I for one didn't take anything here that was said as knocking TSD at all. I think this has been one of the best threads I've seen on a few site in a while. I mentioned my old instructor Master Ko earlier. He did things that were very different when he first came to America. He didn't speak much English so the training was more....physical. We used to do the conditioning, and some partner drills, I think because that was the easiest thing for him to do. Not much explaining. We had makiwaras lining the wall. As time went on tho, he was made to take them down. He did love to beat us with the bamboo sword too.  Jook do in Korean.


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## dancingalone

So the 'kung fu' forms in the Moo Duk Kwan come from Byung In Yoon?  I thought Hwang Kee knew them himself from an unknown source.


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## MasterPistella

He learned Yang Tai Chi, but the SPG he learned from BIY.  BIY was also the one who taught it to Byung Jik Ro. Some of his students still do it. J P Choi from Columbus has them as part of his curriculum. Y P Choi in Indianapolis has a separate "Kung Fu" class at his school. BIY may have been the unknown source, I only learned about this about 9 or 10 years ago. Master Peter Paik (Dr. Paik's son) also still teaches these forms. & he made a comment one time as to the authenticity of SRJK. But I'm not getting involved in the arguments.


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## dancingalone

I have seen some of the kwon bup forms preserved from Byung In Yoon's teachings like 'doju san'.  Sure enough, they're quite different from the karate heritage forms with entirely different principles for maintaining structure. 

Master Pistella, are you fond of the 'kung fu' forms?  Most of the Korean karate people I have seen performing them do them rather poorly by my inexperienced eye, and I'd rather see them concentrate on the hard style forms rather than spend valuable time on material that I don't think they understand.


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## MasterPistella

I actually started in CMA 30 some years ago. SSSSHHHH People might think I'm old. When that school closed in 1979 I went to TSD. I am very fond of the forms, but have kept up a bit with it over the years. I think if they find a good instructor, it can be a nice compliment to TSD. I just learned the first of the forms that was in the old MDK teachings (Jung Kwan) from GM J P Choi. Well, I learned one side. I'm supposed to learn side B & So Ho Yun in July if I can make it to his summer camp. If not, then in the fall. I see what you mean about not looking very nice. I don't think I look very good doing it right now, but don't have a lot of time to practice on anything. I would also like to study Hapkido more if the time arises. But I'm a training tramp. I'll train in anything anytime. Well, almost anything. There are a few I won't (Ashida Kim type stuff)


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## SahBumNimRush

I agree, this has to be one of the most interesting threads I've come across on here.  

From my reading, BIY studied Joo An Pa, which the author translated into Ch'uan Fa.  I am aware of J P Choi and Y P Choi's knowledge of Sip Pal Ki (and have seen their masters demo's at many a tournament in the 80's and early 90's).  So my question is, are Joo An Pa and Sip Pal Ki synonymous terms, or are they different?

Thanks to everyone for all of the back stories, alot of which I have heard before, but the more detailed correlations between BIY, BJR, KWK, and HK are fascinating.  What I had heard of the relationship between KWK and HK was small in detail compared to what some of you are sharing and I greatly appreciate it!


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## MasterPistella

Master Rush. That's a very interesting question. I have only heard of BIY studying Ch'uan Fa and "Northern Kung Fu". I always thought of them as separate arts, but never thought to ask  if they were the same. This is also the first time I've heard of Joo An Pa. I will have to make a point of asking about that. Do you remember their demo when they do the double broad sword? I always liked that one.


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## SahBumNimRush

MasterPistella said:


> Master Rush. That's a very interesting question. I have only heard of BIY studying Ch'uan Fa and "Northern Kung Fu". I always thought of them as separate arts, but never thought to ask  if they were the same. This is also the first time I've heard of Joo An Pa. I will have to make a point of asking about that. Do you remember their demo when they do the double broad sword? I always liked that one.




It was my understanding that "Joo An Pa" is the Korean term for Ch'uan Fa, although I may be mistaken.  And yes, I have seen the double broad sword demonstration by the Choi brothers, it's one of my favorites as well.  Their double stick fighting routine was very impressive as well.


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## dancingalone

MasterPistella said:


> Master Rush. That's a very interesting question. I have only heard of BIY studying Ch'uan Fa and "Northern Kung Fu". I always thought of them as separate arts, but never thought to ask  if they were the same. This is also the first time I've heard of Joo An Pa. I will have to make a point of asking about that. Do you remember their demo when they do the double broad sword? I always liked that one.



I've only heard what BIY learned as being called chuan fa or kwon bup.  Never heard "Northern kung fu", but that's probably a reasonable alternative term.  Forms such as doju san and jang kwon definitely resemble more the forms from 'Northern' Chinese styles like cha quan than Southern fists such as White Crane or Hung Family Fist.


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## SahBumNimRush

The more I look at it, I'm thinking Joo An Pa is merely the romanization for the Korean pronounciation of the Chinese word Ch'uan Fa, whereas the Korean word FOR Ch'uan Fa is Kwon Bup.  But I'm still trying to find the connection between the terms Ch'uan Fa and Ship Pal Gi.. .


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## MasterPistella

The Korean pronunciation I agree with. No idea about the Kwon Bup tho. Funny. Master Paik called me today but I was going to lunch. Have to call him back in a few mins.


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## SahBumNimRush

MasterPistella said:


> The Korean pronunciation I agree with. No idea about the Kwon Bup tho. Funny. Master Paik called me today but I was going to lunch. Have to call him back in a few mins.




Not to say that wikipedia is the end all, be all, but it says that Kwon Bup (Gwonbeop) is the fist fighting method of Ship Pal Gi.  Ship Pal Gi translates into the 18 martial methods, referring to the Muye Dobo Tongji.  Kwon Bup is one of those 18 methods.

Dunno how much that clears things up, but that's what I've found.. .


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## EMST930

dancingalone said:


> There seems to be an undercurrent to identify TSD back to Okinawan karate rather than Japanese karate.  True or false?
> 
> My understanding is that TSD and TKD are the Korean interpretations of Okinawan karate, just as Shotokan is the Japanese interpretation of Okinawan karate.  TSD's teaching methodology was taken from Okinawan Karate taught first through the Okinawan school system then the university system of Japan.  BUT, the way it was explained to me, the Japanese only had karate for less than 20 years when the first Koreans began training.
> 
> I'm paraphrasing Master Glenn Jones from his book when he gives the timeline that Won Kuk Lee started his training between 1926-28 as a university student.  Funakoshi had only been in Japan for four years...Master Jones makes the argument that the basic techniques taught at that time are NOT what 40 years later would become known as Shotokan.  The Japanese had not yet made it "uniquely Japanese."  The Okinawan influence comes from many directions, with Mabuni/Toyama training Yoon Kye Byung, who Hwang Kee later partnered with to tap into Shito-Ryu. (Korean Martial Arts Handbook)
> 
> We don't really say that TSD is Okinawan Karate...per Master Scott's book it's "a composite style with techniques derived from Okinawan Karate, Tae Kyon, and Yang Tai Chi, with some techniques having origins in Judo and Hapkido...The vast majority of the traditional hyung techniques in Tang Soo Do are from the Okinawan Art of Shorin-Ryu through the styles of Shotokan and Shito-Ryu.  The kicking can be credited to Tae Kyon and the creativity of the early practitioners of Korean Karate, who, in their zeal to build the Moo Duk Kwan and spread the art of Tang Soo Do in Korea, took the kicking techniques to another level." (Traditional Korean Karate Basics)
> 
> On the flip side, Master Scott also voiced the opinion that Grandmaster Hwang Kee borrowed from Wado Ryu when it came to fighting because of his exposure to Japanese soldiers practicing it on the rails between Korea and Manchuria.  I had to go digging in the depths of the old internet to find it from 1998--if anyone remembers that heated online battle.
> 
> By the way, I just ordered the Lost Art of Tang Soo Do...


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## tbma_mark

Weve had this discussion on GM David Zackers forum, http://www.s3.excoboard.com/MartialSpirit  The problem with the history here is records are hard to come by.  Between the end of WWII, the 3 years of the Korean war, the South Koreans attempts to erase Japans influences from the 30 years of occupation and finally the South Koreans attempt to incorporate all the schools into one national martial art. We found you can discuss this for days, weeks, months, and never come up with an answer that can be proven.  
What is known is that Won Kuk Lee and Hwang Kee did know each other.  Won Kuk Lee said Hwang Kee was a student of his for a short time, I dont remember ever hearing Hwang Kee admit or deny this.  Won Kuk Lee studied in Japan under Funakoshi, who was Okinawan and trained in Okinawa.  Its no secret that Won Kuk Lee told Hwang Kee he should change the name of his art from Hwa So Do to Tang Soo Do.  There are photos from the 50s, 60s and 70s, of Hwang Kee and Won Kuk Lee together.  Hwang Kee sat on Won Kuk Lees promotion boards and vice versa. 
The most likely influence on Tang Soo Do is likely to be Shotokan.  Some 30 years of Japanese occupation pretty much sealed that.  However, Shotokan was taught to the Japanese by an Okinawan, by default, Tang Soo Do would then have Okinawan influences too.  


Personally, I think Won Kuk Lee taught the forms to Hwang Kee.  I suspect Won Kuk Lee and Hwang Kee had more than just a professional relationship.  Won Kuk Lee in an interview called Hwang Kee a friend of his.  Its been my experience, if two or more martial artists are together, they start exchanging ideas and techniques.  So, even if Hwang Kee was a student of Won Kuk Lees for a short time, its probable that they continued to exchange ideas and techniques and the training continued, just not formally.


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## Makalakumu

From the research that I pulled together for my book, Hwang Kee trained in a Chinese Martial Art when he worked on the railroad.  He worked at a library and read some books on karate and began to practice the moves.  He started training with Lee Won Kuk as his student for about 1.5 years and then branched out by founding the MDK.  

From admissions and other sources, we can conclude that Hwang Kee had about 3 years total of formal training before he founded the MDK.


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## dancingalone

tbma_mark said:


> Won Kuk Lee studied in Japan under Funakoshi, who was Okinawan and trained in Okinawa.



I don't think this has been substantiated by any written evidence.  The only "known" ranking of any Korean GM by an Okinawan/Japanese was Kanken Toyama recognizing Byung In Yoon as 4th dan and shihan.




> The most likely influence on Tang Soo Do is likely to be Shotokan.  Some 30 years of Japanese occupation pretty much sealed that.  However, Shotokan was taught to the Japanese by an Okinawan, by default, Tang Soo Do would then have Okinawan influences too.




As someone who has delved into shorin-ryu karate, my opinion is that TSD is a lot closer to Shotokan karate than it is to shorin-ryu.  The persistent emphasis on hip twist is evidence towards this conclusion.


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## tbma_mark

It is documented that Won Kuk Lee went to Japan and enrolled in Chuo University where he studied Law.  While there, Lee studied Shotokan under Funakoshi Sensei, earning at least a 3rd dan.  Some sources say a 4th dan.  Lee returned to Korea in 1944.  Lee had to obtained permission from the Japanese governor to start teaching defensive martial arts.  The ban on martial arts had been lifted in 1943.  Lee started teaching a style he called Tang Soo Do.  

Funakoshi Sensei did not teach the Japanese the applications he was taught.  He was Okinawan and just like many Okinawans, he view the Japanese as invaders.  I guess he went by the I taught you everything you know, but I didn't teach you everything I know.


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## dancingalone

tbma_mark said:


> It is documented that Won Kuk Lee went to Japan and enrolled in Chuo University where he studied Law.  While there, Lee studied Shotokan under Funakoshi Sensei, earning at least a 3rd dan.  Some sources say a 4th dan.



Source, please?  I don't dispute that he studied karate in Japan.  I do question whether it's accurate that he was a student of Gichin Funakoshi's.  I understand there is lots of "oral history" that states Won Kuk Lee studied under Funakoshi.  What I'm saying that there seems to be no official record surviving whatsoever that shows the relationship.  But, such records do exist for the Japanese students of Funakoshi.


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## Makalakumu

dancingalone said:


> Source, please?  I don't dispute that he studied karate in Japan.  I do question whether it's accurate that he was a student of Gichin Funakoshi's.  I understand there is lots of "oral history" that states Won Kuk Lee studied under Funakoshi.  What I'm saying that there seems to be no official record surviving whatsoever that shows the relationship.  But, such records do exist for the Japanese students of Funakoshi.



There is no written record of who exactly trained with Funakoshi sensei.  What we have are the words and observations of other people who trained with him.  Noting that, we have multiple interviews with people who observed two Koreans training with Funakoshi Sensei.  One was Byung Jick Ro who came back to Korea and founded Song Do Kwan (Shotokan in Korean - this was later changed to Song Moo Kwan).  The other was Won Kuk Lee who came back and founded Chung Do Kwan.  WKL was the first Korean to use the term Tang Soo Do to describe the art.

There are some academics who have actually tracked this down in order to construct a verifiable history for TKD.  I used this material in my book in order to substantiate a direct connection between TSD and Shotokan.


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## dancingalone

maunakumu said:


> There is no written record of who exactly trained with Funakoshi sensei.



I had understood that in his personal writings, Funakoshi mentioned several of his Japanese students by name.  Possibly in the forewards to his published books also, although I don't have copies here at work to verify if my recollection is correct.


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## Makalakumu

dancingalone said:


> I had understood that in his personal writings, Funakoshi mentioned several of his Japanese students by name.  Possibly in the forewards to his published books also, although I don't have copies here at work to verify if my recollection is correct.



What I meant by that statement was that there was no official list of names.  All we have are some of the things that you and I have mentioned.  The MDK instituted the dan bon system in order to provide some kind of official list and prevent some of these problems.


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## rmclain

Toyama Kanken also listed Yoon Kwe-Byung(Yoon Ui-byung) as 4th dan in his directory. He and Yoon Byung-in were the only Koreans listed.

Many people know that Yoon Kwe-Byung(Yoon Ui-byung) was an early pioneer of the Jido-Kwan. But, many don't know that he actually ran a school earlier in Japan he called, "Han Moo Kwan" (Korean People Martial School). "Han" is the old name for Korean people. He also wrote a bong-sul (bo jitsu) book in Japan and dedicated it to one of his teachers, Mabuni Genwa.

Apparently, both GM Yoon's were good friends. Yoon Byung-in taught a bong-sul hyung created by Yoon Kwe-Byung(Yoon Ui-byung) in his YMCA Kwon Bup Bu program, which was carried into the later Changmoo-kwan and KangDuk-Won under several of Yoon Byung-in's senior students. One of their students, Kim Pyung-soo, who was number 24 of the Changmoo-kwan dan list, went through great lengths to preserve Yoon Byung-in's lineage and the bong-sul hyung (including Yoon Kwe-Byung(Yoon Ui-byung)'s bong-sul hyung). He continuously studied these forms and taught them, even today. He is currently in Busan, Korea.

R. McLain


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## DMcHenry

Master McLain do you have any references (or videos links) so we can see an example of the bong-sul hyung?  Sounds very interesting.


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## rmclain

No, I don't have any links. Grandmaster Kim doesn't want to teach students outside of Chayon-Ryu these forms. He's demonstrated these personally countless times in the US since 1968. I've personally demo'ed some of these forms over the years in Arlington since 1994.

I understand his feeling not wanting to teach these outside of his students. He resisted alot of pressure to give these forms up and follow the taekwondo movement. This is part of the reason he immigrated to the U.S. in 1968 from Korea - to escape that pressure. 

I have seen people that were supposed to be old-days students from Yoon Byung-in's lineage (Changmoo-kwan or Kangduk-Won), yet they don't know these forms. Some requested video tapes from Grandmaster Kim, so they could learn the forms now. Simply they never learned them originally or gave them up for the sport taekwondo movement years ago. Who knows why they want them now. 

I know this is a long answer for a simple, "No." Master McHenry, since you trained with his brother for awhile, I thought I would provide the above explaination why you might not find these forms on youtube or elsewhere.

You may e-mail Grandmaster Kim about Yoon Kwe-Byung's bong-sul book. He has a copy.

R. McLain


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## 195

MasterPistella said:


> Master Rush. That's a very interesting question. I have only heard of BIY studying Ch'uan Fa and "Northern Kung Fu". I always thought of them as separate arts, but never thought to ask  if they were the same. This is also the first time I've heard of Joo An Pa. I will have to make a point of asking about that. Do you remember their demo when they do the double broad sword? I always liked that one.




I'm not sure if it helps any but my grandmaster (grandmaster Jung sometimes spelled Chung) trained directly under Hwang Kee and he was also sent by Hwang Kee to a buddhist monastery in China to learn northern mantis gung fu when he was a young man (So rim Gung fu....so rim translates to shaolin). The style looks a lot like plum flower mantis.It is interesting to know that my Grandmaster was sent to this monastery to learn the style. My grandmaster (Jung) was sent to the US in 1978 under grandmaster Hwang Kees orders to open a school here. If you look at So Rim Jang Kwan and other forms such as Chil sung sa roh you can see the evident mantis stylistics. I'm not sure totally what to make of all this but maybe you all can help. My school teaches both  MDK tang soo do and so rim mantis gung fu.


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## SahBumNimRush

195, where in the states did your KJN settle, if you don't mind me asking.  Thanks for the info above, very informative!


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## Muwubu16858

> I don't think this has been substantiated by any written evidence. The only "known" ranking of any Korean GM by an Okinawan/Japanese was Kanken Toyama recognizing Byung In Yoon as 4th dan and shihan.


 
Don't forget GM Yun Kwai Byeong was also ranked 4th Dan Shihan by Kanken Toyama as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanken_Tōyama

He is under In ? Hei, fifth row down. His original name was Yun Ui Byeong.
In ? Hei (Yun Uoi Byon)ShihanTokyo Kanbukan (Korean Martial Hall) Director


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## rmclain

You're saying that GM Kim Ki-whang taught Hwang Kee the SRJK form?




MasterPistella said:


> According to Dr. Paik (Ki Whang Kim's senior student) they "trained together" Meaning KWK, HK, LWK, BJR and others. Neither was teacher, neither was student. They shared what they knew with each other freely. This is also how the forms SRJK came into the MDK curriculum & in exchange HK had his people sponsor KWK to come to the US under the TSD flag. & the way it has it's roots back to Okinawa.....Gichin Funikoshi studies martial arts in Okinawa. Kara te used to mean China Hand. The Japanese changed it to make it more their own. Now means empty hand.


----------



## Muwubu16858

So Rim Jang Kwon was picked up in China by GM Hwang, not learned from Kim ki-whang. I'm sure He knew other jang kwon forms, as several seniors in korea did, but GM Hwang's was his own he learned from his chinese source.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> There seems to be an undercurrent to identify TSD back to Okinawan karate rather than Japanese karate.  True or false?




While the Korean borns who studied Karate did so in Japan, they learned from Okinawan born instructors who immigrated to Japan, as opposed to Japan born instructors. I would say that the Karate that they learned was more Okinawan than Japanese, at least the technical aspects. For example, the Karate learned and taught by GM LEE Won Kuk is different than the Karate being taught by the Shotokan now.


----------



## puunui

maunakumu said:


> A major effort was made to erase any connection to Japanese karate because of the Korean bias toward Japan after the war.  TSD, however, is derived from Shotokan.  It's founders trained in that style and NOT Okinawan karate.




There was no major effort to erase any connection to Japanese karate because of bias. That is just simply false. The pioneers were quite open about where they learned their Karate. And the Shotokan karate learned prior and during WWII is different than what is now taught. 

By the way, I have your book, and you quote directly from me from posts I wrote on taekwondo net.


----------



## puunui

maunakumu said:


> Hwang Kee was a student of Won Kuk Lee (WKL earned a nidan in the art).  HK had about a year and a half of training with WKL before branching out on his own.



GM HWANG Kee was a student of GM HYUN Jong Myung, not GM Lee. GM Hyun worked with GM Hwang at Seoul Station and they worked out together. GM Hwang had prior martial arts experience from Manchuria and so he was very interested the martial arts. I wrote a post about this on taekwondo net, which you included in your book.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> But, LWK apparently considered HK to be his student if he awarded him a green belt?




GM Hwang's rank in the Chung Do Kwan records (which still exist and are kept at the Chung Do Kwan headquarters offices in Seoul) is 6th Guep, White Belt. It is I believe the equivilent to what we would consider today as a green belt. Back then, there were only three belt colors, white (8th-5th Guep), red (4th-1st guep) and black.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> By the way, is there any documentation that  BJR actually studied with  Funakoshi.




GM LEE Won Kuk said that he saw GM RO Byung Jick training at the Shotokan and wearing a black belt towards the end. He trained mostly in the day with FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei while GM Lee worked during the day and practiced at night with FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> <shrugs>  I've never run into a TSD federation that teaches formal partner sets or emphasized body conditioning with the old tools the way Okinawan systems do.  There's also kobudo to consider before we even get to the thorny topic of bunkai. I'm not knocking tang soo do at all, but these attributes are what distinguish Okinawan karate from Japanese karate.  And tang soo do generally follow the line of Japanese karate in these aspects too.




GM Lee did train with the makiwara and I believe the iron geta. I brought up the topic of weapons and he started making movements with his arms like he was using a bo. So he did learn weapons or at least had an understanding of weapons. There are also pictures of Funakoshi Sensei and his Japan students holding bo. 

But after reading your posts, I would say that perhaps GM Lee did learn Japanese Karate, or at least some sort of hybrid or transitional Japan style. The uniform, the rank system, the class format, the military or samurai overtones in class, the mentality of perfection, all are part of the Japan Karate experience. I think that pre WWII karate and post WWII karate were different things. One cannot assume, for example, that watching a Shotokan class today is like watching a class at the Shotokan in 1935.


----------



## puunui

tellner said:


> I'm afraid it's true. There have been several researchers, notably Dakin Burdick, who pretty thoroughly uncovered the undeniable Japanese origins of Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do.



What Dakin Burdick did was read Corrocan and Farkas' book and then plagerize that, which he posted on the internet when there was no good information available. I believe he has since taken down his article.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> Source, please?  I don't dispute that he studied karate in Japan.  I do question whether it's accurate that he was a student of Gichin Funakoshi's.  I understand there is lots of "oral history" that states Won Kuk Lee studied under Funakoshi.  What I'm saying that there seems to be no official record surviving whatsoever that shows the relationship.  But, such records do exist for the Japanese students of Funakoshi.



I don't know if there is any written records. I would say that no one has bothered to look. The records may have also been destroyed when the Shotokan burned down during WW II. I can say that GM LEE Won Kuk told me personally that he studied mainly under the son, Yoshitaka Sensei, more so than the father, especially during the last years he was in Japan. He liked the son's style more so than the father's, because they were about the same age.


----------



## Montecarlodrag

puunui said:


> GM HWANG Kee was a student of GM HYUN Jong Myung, *not GM Lee*. GM Hyun worked with GM Hwang at Seoul Station and they worked out together. GM Hwang had prior martial arts experience from Manchuria and so he was very interested the martial arts. I wrote a post about this on taekwondo net, which you included in your book.


 


puunui said:


> GM Hwang's rank in the Chung Do Kwan records (which still exist and are kept at the Chung Do Kwan headquarters offices in Seoul) is 6th Guep, White Belt. It is I believe the equivilent to what we would consider today as a green belt. Back then, there were only three belt colors, white (8th-5th Guep), red (4th-1st guep) and black.


 
I'm not following you. 
In the first quote you say GM Hwang Kee wasn't a student of GM Lee.
Then in the second quote, you say GM Hwang Kee was a student in Chung Do Kwan

Aren't these two statements contrary?


----------



## puunui

Montecarlodrag said:


> I'm not following you.
> In the first quote you say GM Hwang Kee wasn't a student of GM Lee.
> Then in the second quote, you say GM Hwang Kee was a student in Chung Do Kwan
> 
> Aren't these two statements contrary?



no.


----------



## Makalakumu

puunui said:


> There was no major effort to erase any connection to Japanese karate because of bias. That is just simply false.



What do you make of this statement?



> Of course, in the days of occupation, it was forbidden by the Japanese          to teach or study any martial arts including Tang Soo Do, *a Korean style*.          When I went to university in Japan seventy years ago *Tang Soo Do* training          was very popular there. I was very interested in it. While attending the          university, I practiced *Tang Soo Do* and came to realize that this type          of skill was very important to have. I became aware that our *Korean national          history* and legacy of martial arts were being kept from us. I felt very          bad about this. *Outside Korea*, I was allowed to study Japanese and Chinese          martial arts.



http://www.tangsudo.it/html/leewonkuk.html

False?


----------



## puunui

maunakumu said:


> What do you make of this statement?
> 
> False?




In my opinion, the translation was poorly done and does not accurately reflect GM Lee's position on a lot of things. I don't know if it was the limitations of the interviewer (who I know) or whether what was stated was modified for the intended target audience (Taekwondo Times readers). Unfortunately, that interview, published in Taekwondo Times (that should tell you something right there), gets quoted and misinterpreted by those who mix what was written with their own ideas and "research"(google searches).

For example, the part that you quoted:

>Of course, in the days of occupation, it was forbidden by the 
>Japanese          to teach or study any martial arts including Tang Soo Do, 
>a Korean style. 

What GM LEE Won Kuk told me was that if you wanted to teach martial arts in Korea during the occupation, you had to ask permission to do so. There was for example, Judo which was already being taught in Korea in several places. GM Lee asked permission to teach Tang Soo Do (a term he created) but they did not know what Tang Soo Do was at the time so they declined his request. 


>When I went to university in Japan seventy years ago Tang Soo Do 
>training          was very popular there. I was very interested in it. While 
>attending the          university, I practiced Tang Soo Do and came to realize 
>that this type          of skill was very important to have. I became aware that 
>our Korean national          history and legacy of martial arts were being kept 
>from us. I felt very          bad about this. Outside Korea, I was allowed to study 
>Japanese and Chinese          martial arts. 

GM Lee stated to me that while in Japan, he studied Karate (not tang Soo Do), which was an Okinawan martial art, not Japanese. He felt that Karate was Okinawan because his teachers, FUNAKOSHI GIchin Sensei and his son FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei, were Okinawan. He did acknowledge the changes that were being made in Japan, such as the standardized uniform, the rank system, the modification of the names to Japanese names instead of the older Okinawan language based names, and also the changes to the characters for Karate itself. He objected or disapproved of some of the changes, such as the reversal in order of Pinan 1 and 2, and certain modifications or "mistakes" that Gichin Sensei taught. He never considered what he learned in Japan to be Korean, or a Korean martial art, and he never called it Tang Soo Do while in Japan. In fact, he spoke quite frankly about learning Karate in Japan. When he moved back to Korea and began teaching, he pretty much kept it as close as possible to what he learned in Japan. However, if you look at the JKA materials or teachings of today and think that is what GM Lee learned and taught, you will misunderstand what actually happened. The post WWII JKA style is different than the pre WWII Yoshitaka Sensei based style that GM Lee primarily learned and favored.  The JKA rejected the teachings of Yoshitaka Sensei (GM Lee's primary teacher) and went with their own method, as best as they could remember after a five or ten year break. Many of the JKA seniors, such as Nakayama Sensei, was absent during WWII and lived outside of Japan. Nakayama Sensei for example, was gone for I believe 8 years and lived in Manchuria and/or mainland China, where he studied Chinese martial arts.


----------



## Makalakumu

puunui said:


> In my opinion, the translation was poorly done and does not accurately reflect GM Lee's position on a lot of things. I don't know if it was the limitations of the interviewer (who I know) or whether what was stated was modified for the intended target audience (Taekwondo Times readers). Unfortunately, that interview, published in Taekwondo Times (that should tell you something right there), gets quoted and misinterpreted by those who mix what was written with their own ideas and "research"(google searches).



Well, this is what we have as far as documentation is concerned.  It would be nice to see some documentation to the contrary.  What I can say from the research that I've gathered, as far as Hwang Kee is concerned, there was a distinct effort to obfuscate the Japanese origins of Tang Soo Do.  This effort extended to publishing materials that claimed that the Pyung Ahn Forms were actually Chinese in origin and not Okinawan or Japanese.  Later, GM Kee set the record straight on the matter.  Also, there is the matter of persecution by the ROK government of individuals who were deemed too Japanese.  Therefore, based off of this interview, the documented history of persecution, and the history of Korean martial arts being modified to fit a nationalist perspective, it's not that big of a jump to conclude that GM Lee really meant what he said in the interview.  

Perhaps, GM Lee held a number of views privately that he would not share publicly?



puunui said:


> What GM LEE Won Kuk told me was that if you wanted to teach martial arts in Korea during the occupation, you had to ask permission to do so. There was for example, Judo which was already being taught in Korea in several places. GM Lee asked permission to teach Tang Soo Do (a term he created) but they did not know what Tang Soo Do was at the time so they declined his request.



Tang Soo Do is actually the old reading the characters for Kara-te, so GM Lee did not invent this term.  At the time that GM Lee studied in Japan, the Empty Hand version of the name was being used widely.  Why did GM Lee opt to use the old characters rather then the new characters?  If there was no bias against Japanese, why not simply use the characters that everyone knows instead of causing confusion?  



puunui said:


> GM Lee stated to me that while in Japan, he studied Karate (not tang Soo Do), which was an Okinawan martial art, not Japanese. He felt that Karate was Okinawan because his teachers, FUNAKOSHI GIchin Sensei and his son FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei, were Okinawan. He did acknowledge the changes that were being made in Japan, such as the standardized uniform, the rank system, the modification of the names to Japanese names instead of the older Okinawan language based names, and also the changes to the characters for Karate itself. He objected or disapproved of some of the changes, such as the reversal in order of Pinan 1 and 2, and certain modifications or "mistakes" that Gichin Sensei taught. He never considered what he learned in Japan to be Korean, or a Korean martial art, and he never called it Tang Soo Do while in Japan. In fact, he spoke quite frankly about learning Karate in Japan. When he moved back to Korea and began teaching, he pretty much kept it as close as possible to what he learned in Japan. However, if you look at the JKA materials or teachings of today and think that is what GM Lee learned and taught, you will misunderstand what actually happened. The post WWII JKA style is different than the pre WWII Yoshitaka Sensei based style that GM Lee primarily learned and favored.  The JKA rejected the teachings of Yoshitaka Sensei (GM Lee's primary teacher) and went with their own method, as best as they could remember after a five or ten year break. Many of the JKA seniors, such as Nakayama Sensei, was absent during WWII and lived outside of Japan. Nakayama Sensei for example, was gone for I believe 8 years and lived in Manchuria and/or mainland China, where he studied Chinese martial arts.



It is very possible that GM Lee held these as his personal views, but could not present them publicly.  It is documented in The Modern History of Tae Kwon Do, that GM Lee was charged for acts deemed pro-Japanese and stood a special civic trial.  Is this incorrect?  Is this unrelated to martial arts?  

Noting all of this, how can you still defend the statement that the Koreans did not try to de-Japanify their martial arts?


----------



## puunui

maunakumu said:


> Well, this is what we have as far as documentation is concerned.



No, that is the documentation that YOU have. Others are not limited or bound by such things. 




maunakumu said:


> It would be nice to see some documentation to the contrary.  What I can say from the research that I've gathered, as far as Hwang Kee is concerned, there was a distinct effort to obfuscate the Japanese origins of Tang Soo Do.



Maybe some did try to "obfuscate" the Okinawan origins of Tang Soo Do, but it wasn't GM LEE Won Kuk, or for that matter the Chung Do Kwan. 




maunakumu said:


> This effort extended to publishing materials that claimed that the Pyung Ahn Forms were actually Chinese in origin and not Okinawan or Japanese.



Are you certain that the Pinan kata is not Chinese in origin? 




maunakumu said:


> Later, GM Kee set the record straight on the matter.



You're kidding right? GM Kee? You just lost me. 




maunakumu said:


> Also, there is the matter of persecution by the ROK government of individuals who were deemed too Japanese.  Therefore, based off of this interview, the documented history of persecution, and the history of Korean martial arts being modified to fit a nationalist perspective, it's not that big of a jump to conclude that GM Lee really meant what he said in the interview.



Yeah, put all kinds of misinformation out of context, and you can paint whatever picture you want. 




maunakumu said:


> Perhaps, GM Lee held a number of views privately that he would not share publicly?



Sure, there were a lot of things that he said in confidence to me. Hiding the origins of Tang Soo Do was not one of them. 




maunakumu said:


> Tang Soo Do is actually the old reading the characters for Kara-te, so GM Lee did not invent this term.



Wrong. The term Toudejutsu was the old name used in Okinawa for the art. This is pronounced Karatejutsu in Japanese and Tang Soo Sool in Korean. Everyone knows about the change of the first character from Tou (Tang in Korean) to Kara (Kong in Korean) but what people forget is that they also changed the last character from Jutsu to Do at the same time. So the name went from Toudejutsu (Tang Sool Soo) to Karatedo (Kong Soo Do). Tang Soo Do was never used in Japan, at least not by the Shotokan group. FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei or maybe it was Nakayama Sensei spoke about this in one of their books. You might not find it if you only do google searches though. 




maunakumu said:


> At the time that GM Lee studied in Japan, the Empty Hand version of the name was being used widely.  Why did GM Lee opt to use the old characters rather then the new characters?  If there was no bias against Japanese, why not simply use the characters that everyone knows instead of causing confusion?



First of all, everyone didn't know the name Karatedo or Kong Soo Do in Korea at the time. Maybe you know it now, but that doesn't mean everyone knew it back then. 

As for why the name Tang Soo Do, I already told you the answer, and you would have maybe picked it up if you weren't so blinded by this "Let's get rid of the Japanese" thing. But the reason why he chose the name Tang Soo Do was because GM Lee preferred the Okinawan methodology, and as a tribute to that, went back to the name toude, or Tang Soo. But he also recognized the value in the modern parts as well, the so called "sport" aspects such as a standardized uniform, a ranking system, the formalized training format, and all the parts that was added in to make Toudejutsu a modern Japanese art in the image of Judo and Kendo. So he added the Do as a recognition of that. So Tang Soo Do, at the time the name was created, by GM LEE Won Kuk, was a tribute to the Okinawan method as well as the Japanese Do contributions. 




maunakumu said:


> It is very possible that GM Lee held these as his personal views, but could not present them publicly.  It is documented in The Modern History of Tae Kwon Do, that GM Lee was charged for acts deemed pro-Japanese and stood a special civic trial.  Is this incorrect?  Is this unrelated to martial arts?



First of all, my Korean born students and I translated that book. Secondly, the cover, which is in english, writes it "A Modern History of Taekwondo", with Taekwondo spelled as one word. Last but not least, does it say that GM Lee was convicted? I don't know about you, but where I come from, people are presumed innocent until proven guilty. 




maunakumu said:


> Noting all of this, how can you still defend the statement that the Koreans did not try to de-Japanify their martial arts?



Because I spoke to GM Lee and he did not "de-Japanify" his martial arts, and neither for that matter did the pioneers. In the Modern History book for example, does it "de-Japanify" Taekwondo, or does it start off in the very beginning sections by talking about how the Kwan founders learned in Japan? 

One more thing that might be of interest to you. GM LEE Won Kuk was fluent in japanese and I believe he was more comfortable speaking in Japanese than in Korean. His son, who I still keep in touch with, often writes me letters in Japanese rather than Korean. And GM Lee's grandson lives and works in Japan.

But that's all the questions I feel like answering for you. I'm not your teacher and frankly don't wish to be. It's hard to have a meaningful discussion with someone who claims a Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan background on one hand and then calls the Moo Duk Kwan founder "GM Kee".


----------



## Makalakumu

puunui said:


> No, that is the documentation that YOU have. Others are not limited or bound by such things.



This is where this conversation can no longer proceed.  Without any documentation and verification of your claims, how are people going to be able to have any faith in what you are saying?  Why should anyone take the word of an anonymous person on a message board?

Perhaps you should write a book and document what you are saying so that people can weigh your claims against other documented sources.  Market the book and put out the truth as you see it.


----------



## puunui

maunakumu said:


> This is where this conversation can no longer proceed.  Without any documentation and verification of your claims, how are people going to be able to have any faith in what you are saying?  Why should anyone take the word of an anonymous person on a message board?




I am only anonymous to you. 

But let's compare documentation. You said this: 




maunakumu said:


> Tang Soo Do is actually the old reading the characters for Kara-te, so  GM Lee did not invent this term.  At the time that GM Lee studied in  Japan, the Empty Hand version of the name was being used widely.



Here is what NAKAYAMA Masatoshi Sensei stated in the book, Conversations with the Master: Masatoshi Nakayama, page 32: 

"Well, the characters for karate had become rather well known by the 1930's, but they were still read "Chinese hand". In 1935, Master Funakoshi wrote Karate-do Kyohan and proposed that the characters be changed to "empty hand".... *But more importantly, he also proposed that karate-jutsu, the technique of karate, be changed to karate-do, karate as a way of life. This caused tremendous uproar among some of the older, more traditional Okinawan masters of the time, and they took a strong stand against him in the newspapers.* They demanded to why he wanted to remove karate from its Okinawan and Chinese roots. His reply to them was very interesting. He said, in effect, that since karate had spread to the Japanese mainland and been accepted by the intelligentsia in Japan, it had ceased to be a local, Okinawan martial art. He said it had grown to universal proportions and acceptance, and should therefore be elevated to equal status with kendo, Japan's oldest martial art, and judo, which was very popular." 

Where is your documentation that the term Toude-Do was used in Japan and that the term Tou was not changed at the same time as the term Jutsu? 

Of course, you could always argue that Nakayama Sensei is merely claiming to be repeating what Funakoshi Sensei said, without documentation, which is what you accuse me of. But that still would not be the same as documentation for your claim that GM Lee did not come up with the term Tang Soo Do.


----------



## puunui

maunakumu said:


> It is documented in The Modern History of Tae Kwon Do, that GM Lee was charged for acts deemed pro-Japanese and stood a special civic trial.  Is this incorrect?




Your statement that it "is documented in The Modern History of Tae Kwon Do, that GM Lee was charged for acts deemed pro-Japanese and stood a special civic trial." is incorrect. 

What the Modern History book translation actually states is this: CHOI Hong Hi said "After
independence, LEE Kwan Jang was charged with acts of  pro-Japanese and stood in a special civil trial." 

There are no "documents" provided or cited to to substantiate the claim that GM Lee "was charged with acts of  pro-Japanese and stood in a special civil trial." So basically what the authors of the Modern History book did was what I did, which is relay what someone else said. If you are unwilling or unable to accept my "documentation", then certainly you cannot accept similar types of evidence of others.


----------



## puunui

maunakumu said:


> It is documented in The Modern History of Tae Kwon Do,



Forgot to ask. What is your documentation that the above is the title of the book that you are citing to, "*The* Modern History of *Tae Kwon Do*" vs. "A Modern History of Taekwondo"?


----------



## Makalakumu

puunui said:


> Your statement that it "is documented in The Modern History of Tae Kwon Do, that GM Lee was charged for acts deemed pro-Japanese and stood a special civic trial." is incorrect.
> 
> What the Modern History book translation actually states is this: CHOI Hong Hi said "After
> independence, LEE Kwan Jang was charged with acts of  pro-Japanese and stood in a special civil trial."
> 
> There are no "documents" provided or cited to to substantiate the claim that GM Lee "was charged with acts of  pro-Japanese and stood in a special civil trial." So basically what the authors of the Modern History book did was what I did, which is relay what someone else said. If you are unwilling or unable to accept my "documentation", then certainly you cannot accept similar types of evidence of others.



Like I said, write a book and publish it with your name so people can substantiate your stories.  If the history is wrong or full of holes, fill in the holes with what you know and try and correct it.  If what you are saying is correct, then it is a common misconception that Korea had a strong anti-Japanese bias and that needs to be corrected.

The difference between you and me and everyone else who wrote a book is that we did it and you didn't.  Get your material out there and put your name and reputation on it and see where it goes.


----------



## Makalakumu

puunui said:


> I am only anonymous to you.



I asked you four times privately verify your information and allow me to correct any errors I may have made.  Instead, you've made every effort to misdirect or change the subject.  Essentially, what needs to happen is that you need to publish your personal stories with your real name so that they can be weighed against the opinion of anyone else who has experience with GM Lee.  If your stories match what other people are saying and it is overwhelmingly obvious that this point of view is true, then people can accept your personal stories for fact.



puunui said:


> Of course, you could always argue that Nakayama Sensei is merely claiming to be repeating what Funakoshi Sensei said, without documentation, which is what you accuse me of. But that still would not be the same as documentation for your claim that GM Lee did not come up with the term Tang Soo Do.



Did GM Lee coin the characters?

Tang Soo = &#21776;&#25163;
Kara Te =  &#21776;&#25163;

If GM Lee coined the term Tang Soo then he also must have coined Kara Te because they are exactly the same.  Is that what you are claiming?


----------



## Makalakumu

puunui said:


> Forgot to ask. What is your documentation that the above is the title of the book that you are citing to, "*The* Modern History of *Tae Kwon Do*" vs. "A Modern History of Taekwondo"?



Pardon me.  The Modern History of Taekwondo.  LOL!


----------



## puunui

maunakumu said:


> The difference between you and me and everyone else who wrote a book is that we did it and you didn't.  Get your material out there and put your name and reputation on it and see where it goes.



No, the difference between you and me is that I went out and actually spoke with the people who made the history, and before I started doing that, I acquired and read every single martial art book, magazine or publication that I could lay my hands on. And my material is out there. It's in your book, remember?


----------



## puunui

maunakumu said:


> Did GM Lee coin the characters?
> 
> Tang Soo = &#21776;&#25163;
> Kara Te =  &#21776;&#25163;
> 
> If GM Lee coined the term Tang Soo then he also must have coined Kara Te because they are exactly the same.  Is that what you are claiming?




The two characters you post above are the same character, Tang. 

And no he didn't coin the term tangsoo. No one said that he did. GM Lee coined the term tangsoo*do*, which was not in use until he created it. As Nakayama Sensei explains, the term Tang or Tou was changed to Kong or Kara at the same time that the back end Jutsu or Sool was changed to Do,  that this was the important change, not the tou to kara. So it went from Tang Soo Sool to Kong Soo Do. There was no Tang Soo Do until GM LEE Won Kuk used it. My documentation is Nakayama Sensei's words below. 

Again, here is what NAKAYAMA Masatoshi Sensei stated in the book, Conversations with the Master: Masatoshi Nakayama, page 32: 

"Well, the characters for karate had become rather well known by the  1930's, but they were still read "Chinese hand". In 1935, Master  Funakoshi wrote Karate-do Kyohan and proposed that the characters be  changed to "empty hand".... *But more importantly, he also proposed  that karate-jutsu, the technique of karate, be changed to karate-do,  karate as a way of life. This caused tremendous uproar among some of the  older, more traditional Okinawan masters of the time, and they took a  strong stand against him in the newspapers.* They demanded to why he  wanted to remove karate from its Okinawan and Chinese roots. His reply  to them was very interesting. He said, in effect, that since karate had  spread to the Japanese mainland and been accepted by the intelligentsia  in Japan, it had ceased to be a local, Okinawan martial art. He said it  had grown to universal proportions and acceptance, and should therefore  be elevated to equal status with kendo, Japan's oldest martial art, and  judo, which was very popular."


----------



## puunui

maunakumu said:


> I asked you four times privately verify your information and allow me to correct any errors I may have made.  Instead, you've made every effort to misdirect or change the subject.



Actually you are changing the subject, which is why can you quote my posts from taekwondo net concerning my conversations with GM LEE Won Kuk in your book, but if I bring it those same conversations with GM Lee here, suddenly it is not believable or lacking in "documentation". 




maunakumu said:


> Essentially, what needs to happen is that you need to publish your personal stories with your real name so that they can be weighed against the opinion of anyone else who has experience with GM Lee.  If your stories match what other people are saying and it is overwhelmingly obvious that this point of view is true, then people can accept your personal stories for fact.



that already has happened. And they are not my personal stories; it is what happened according to GM LEE Won Kuk and others, which I have on audio and video tape. I also have every single martial arts photo and martial arts document that GM Lee had in his possession. He freely let me scan whatever I wanted because he said I was like his grandson. It wasn't easy to gain that trust and acceptance. Try it and see for yourself how open the pioneers are and let us know what sort of results you get.


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## Makalakumu

Let me see what you got? Or write a book. It sounds like you have the background to  do it. If you info checks you deserve all the accolades.   I don't understand why you even want to waste your time talking to someone you think is a complete hack.


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## Makalakumu

Let me see what you got? If you've written a book or books, let's see the titles. Put them down and claim them. Otherwise what's the point in talking to someone you think is a total hack? What do you hope to get from this discussion?


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## Makalakumu

puunui said:


> The two characters you post above are the same character, Tang.
> 
> And no he didn't coin the term tangsoo. No one said that he did. GM Lee coined the term tangsoo*do*, which was not in use until he created it.



Let's try this again.

 &#21776; = China

&#25163; = Hand

&#36947; = Way

The two characters I posted before do not both mean Tang.  If the whole thing is put together is pronounced differently in a different dialect or language, a person cannot claim that.  It would be like me claiming the word _buch _which is German for book.  It's just the pronounciation of the word in a different language.

No one is denying that GM Lee was the first to teach karate in Korea.  He did not coin the term Tang Soo Do.  

Now let's get clear about your other claim.  Are you saying that there was no anti-Japanese bias in Korea or are you saying the GM Lee did not have an anti-Japanese bias?  I think the former is quite well documented.  The latter is definitely subject for debate.  If GM Lee remained true to the origins despite political pressure, I think that is great!  If the interview he gave is mistranslated and mangles his intent, I'd like to see an original transcript of the interview and check it against what is published.  You said you knew the people involved.  You'd be in the perfect position to actually check this and debunk the interview.  Go for it!


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## puunui

maunakumu said:


> Let me see what you got?



Sorry but that stuff is for me, not you.




maunakumu said:


> If you've written a book or books, let's see the titles. Put them down and claim them.



Never wrote a book, but I have posted enough information to fill a book. 




maunakumu said:


> Otherwise what's the point in talking to someone you think is a total hack?



I don't know if you are a total hack. I do think that as a 2nd Dan, I would think that your focus would or should be on other things, rather than writing books. 




maunakumu said:


> What do you hope to get from this discussion?



Hopefully some answers to my questions, which you have not been forthcoming about.


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## puunui

maunakumu said:


> No one is denying that GM Lee was the first to teach karate in Korea.



Actually there are people who do dispute that GM Lee was the first to teach "karate" in Korea.




maunakumu said:


> He did not coin the term Tang Soo Do.



Do you have any documentation for this claim of yours? If not, the discussion cannot proceed, for reasons you stated above. I have already posted my documentation to the contrary, quotes from the Nakayama Sensei interview, which you keep ignoring. 




maunakumu said:


> Now let's get clear about your other claim.  Are you saying that there was no anti-Japanese bias in Korea or are you saying the GM Lee did not have an anti-Japanese bias?



I already answered this question. Try rereading my posts above. While you are doing that, check out the unanswered questions as well.




maunakumu said:


> I think the former is quite well documented.  The latter is definitely subject for debate.  If GM Lee remained true to the origins despite political pressure, I think that is great!  If the interview he gave is mistranslated and mangles his intent, I'd like to see an original transcript of the interview and check it against what is published.  You said you knew the people involved.  You'd be in the perfect position to actually check this and debunk the interview.  Go for it!



Go do your own work. Part of the problem is if you read through the topic, is that you went from what GM Lee said to a general statement of "Koreans" hiding the Japanese origins of their art. 

For example, GM CHOI Yong Sul has always stated that he learned his martial arts from TAKEDA Sokaku while he lived in Japan. 

Yudo people also acknowledge that their art is Judo from Japan. 

Kumdo people same thing, they acknowledge that their art is Kendo from Japan. 

Same thing for Taekwondo, those who learned in Japan state quite clearly that they learned in Japan. Their direct students also acknowledge and state this as well. The two examples that pop into my mind, outside of what GM Lee and other pioneers have freely stated to me, is contained in General Choi's book, and also the Modern History book. General Choi constantly states that he learned Karate in Japan. The Modern History book starts off with the discussion about the original Kwan and how most of the founders studied Karate in Japan. The Modern History book also has references of pioneers either visiting Japan or taking team to Japan for exchanges.


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## Makalakumu

Let's start over. Restate your questions and I'll answer them the best I can.


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## puunui

maunakumu said:


> Let's start over. Restate your questions and I'll answer them the best I can.



Let's start with these questions:

1) Why can you quote my posts from taekwondo net concerning my  conversations with GM LEE Won Kuk in your book, but if I bring it those  same conversations with GM Lee here, suddenly it is not believable or  lacking in "documentation"?

2) What is your documentation that GM LEE Won Kuk did NOT create the term Tang Soo *Do* (as opposed to Tang Soo or Tang Soo Sool)?

3) If GM Lee did not create the term Tang Soo Do (as opposed to Tang Soo or Tang Soo Sool), then who did create the term, and where is your documentation in support of your answer?


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## puunui

In addition, there is the topic Documentation for "The Lost Art of Tang Soo Do that you have not responded to.


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## Makalakumu

puunui said:


> 1) Why can you quote my posts from taekwondo net concerning my  conversations with GM LEE Won Kuk in your book, but if I bring it those  same conversations with GM Lee here, suddenly it is not believable or  lacking in "documentation"?



Here's 

http://www.taekwondo.net/


> allow_url_include is On (warning, you should have this param in Off state, or your site will unsafe)
> Please go to the
> Dolphin Troubleshooter
> and solve the problem.



There's nothing here.



puunui said:


> 2) What is your documentation that GM LEE Won Kuk did NOT create the term Tang Soo *Do* (as opposed to Tang Soo or Tang Soo Sool)?



I'm saying that it's just a different reading the same characters for Karate Do and I showed you the characters and showed you that they were exactly the same.  You are claiming that he created it.  Saying that he coined the term is like saying that a person coins anything they assimilate into their culture.   



puunui said:


> 3) If GM Lee did not create the term Tang Soo Do (as opposed to Tang Soo or Tang Soo Sool), then who did create the term, and where is your documentation in support of your answer?



No one knows who began using it.  Funakoshi, Mabuni, and Motobu use it freely in their early writings.  That's just the way it is with some things.


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## Makalakumu

puunui said:


> In addition, there is the topic Documentation for "The Lost Art of Tang Soo Do that you have not responded to.



Check the other thread.


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## puunui

maunakumu said:


> I'm saying that it's just a different reading the same characters for Karate Do and I showed you the characters and showed you that they were exactly the same.  You are claiming that he created it.  Saying that he coined the term is like saying that a person coins anything they assimilate into their culture.



Did you read my posts about this? Again, the term used in Okinawa was Toudejutsu, which is pronounced Karatejutsu in Japanese and Tang Soo Sool in Korean. FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei's first book published in Japan was titled Toudejutsu. It has been reprinted under the name Toudejutsu and Karatejutsu, which you can find on amazon.com if you don't believe me. I have both versions. When Funakoshi Sensei changed the first character from Tou/Kara/Tang to Kara/Kong(empty), he also changed the back or last character from Jutsu to Do. So the name when from Toudejutsu/Tang Soo Sool to Karatedo or Kong Soo Do. There was no usage of the term Tang Soo Do (pronounced Karatedo) in Japan, because, again, Funakoshi Sensei changed the first and last characters at the same time. This is where Nakayama Sensei's quote comes in, as documentation. 

Do you understand what I am writing here? And if you do, where is your documentation to the contrary? I didn't see you cite to anything. 




maunakumu said:


> No one knows who began using it.  Funakoshi, Mabuni, and Motobu use it freely in their early writings.  That's just the way it is with some things.



No they did not. They use the term Toudejutsu or Kempo, not Toude Do or Tang Soo Do. But if you have a reference, please point me to it.


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## Makalakumu

This conversation is over.  If you would like to speak to me privately, you can contact me.


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## puunui

maunakumu said:


> This conversation is over.



Kind of reminds me of Roberto Duran when he said "No mas." It was the defining moment of his boxing career and his life.


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## MasterPistella

I leave for a few months & this goes to crap. lol

Kidding guys. Lots of comments on things that were posted, & noticed lots of wrong info passed around, but don't care at this point. 

Hope things have been going well with everyone.


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## kbarrett

What I came to learn was the GM Hwang Kee, studied in China came back to Korea in 1945 and opened the Moo Duk Kwan dojang teaching "Hwa Soo Do" his art wasn't very popular and he closed his first dojang, so then he started training wiht GM Won Kuk Lee at the Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo do dojangs, then in 1947 GM Hwang Kee reopened his dojang teach Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, not to long after this GM Hwang Kee found the Muye Dobo Tongji, which really changed his whole out look on his Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, and he started the wheels in motion, and eventually created the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan to replace the Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan from what he had learn from th muye dob tongji manual, the Yuk Rho and Hwa Sun Hyungs actually come from this books whcih had a section on Kwon Bup (fist fight method) and the rest is really history at this point.

Ken Barrett


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