# Shaolin 5 Animals



## CloudChaser (Jan 28, 2004)

for anyone familiar with the shaolin 5 animals (dragon, tiger, leopard, crane, snake) what body type would be best suited for each animal form?

for instance, someone tall and lanky would most likely have it easier studying the crane style, right?  

i think it'd be extraordinary for someone to master all 5 animal styles equally well...


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## 7starmantis (Jan 29, 2004)

> _Originally posted by CloudChaser _
> *for anyone familiar with the shaolin 5 animals (dragon, tiger, leopard, crane, snake) what body type would be best suited for each animal form?
> 
> for instance, someone tall and lanky would most likely have it easier studying the crane style, right?
> ...



I don't think that it is neccesarily easier for a certain body type to study a certain style. There are techniques that are better suited for different body types, but that is in all styles. I just don't buy into the thought of differing styles for differing body types. Kung Fu in about adapting to your environment. You adapt to what works. This may sound picky, but I think it is very true, you can do any of the styles, you just adapt to them.

There are those who have mastered the differing animal styles, they are very dangerous people   Personally however, I think mastering one of them is a life-long goal and worth the effort.

7sm


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## Ninway J (Jan 29, 2004)

> _Originally posted by CloudChaser _
> *for anyone familiar with the shaolin 5 animals (dragon, tiger, leopard, crane, snake) what body type would be best suited for each animal form?
> 
> for instance, someone tall and lanky would most likely have it easier studying the crane style, right?
> ...



Hmm, I guess monkey isn't a shaolin style.   Funny, I thought it was.  Anyway, I think I'd probably have a difficult time doing monkey kung fu because I'm tall.  But I think that's just me, because I actually have seen another tall person perform it.  It was amazing!


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## CloudChaser (Jan 29, 2004)

yeah, i'd feel so fortunate to master even one animal form in my lifetime!  i do prefer the leopard for its focus on speed and agility though!

and i'm still trying to visualize someone as tall as kareem abdul-jabar doing the monkey form and doing it gracefully too, wow...  that's gotta be a bit tricky

anyone have a particularly favorite kung fu form they're concentrating on now or would like to in the immediate future?


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## Ninway J (Jan 29, 2004)

Heh, I would love to learn just ANY kung fu right now!  No real legit teachers I have found in my area yet.

But if I had to choose, Mantis, Snake, or Crane seem very interesting.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 29, 2004)

Mantis is awesome but I'm biased.
Snake is horrible to defend against, small circles, dangerous targets. Its hard to defend against. Its also alot of fun to do.

7sm


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## 7starmantis (Jan 29, 2004)

I do think that alot of the 5 animals forms are a little flashy however. Using some snake fist, or eagle claw, or panther strikes is a different story, but I don't know that I would stop what I'm doing now to study just one of the animal styles. Actually, I know I wouldn't.

7sm


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## CloudChaser (Jan 29, 2004)

so what is it about mantis you like, 7sm?  i've seen a few of the forms and it looks way cool...  my sifu specializes in that style too, but the class is limited to more advanced students... i'm still working on beginner's salute form, shaolin #6, and staff form  :s  plenty enough for me as it is! 

not too many 'real' kung fu schools in my city either... mine is non-profit and students perform demos as fundraisers


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## 7starmantis (Jan 30, 2004)

Most of what I like about 7* is the close fighting. My Sifu says we should be able to do all of our forms in the space of an elevator. Mostly the straightforward fighting of the system. All the breaks, knee breaks, traps, plucks. The best thing we have going for us is our feel. We work heavily on feel. If I can feel when my opponant tightens(flexes) I can instantly move to an attack. I can feel when he pushes in on my hand, then I can bounce to an attack. Its hard to explain. Also, the severity of the system is another thing I love about it. We practice going as far as possible. What I mean is, if I'm attacked, before I stop and walk away I will have done 15 attacks or so. Alot of punches or breaks at the same time as kicks. Once we start the attack, you just go instantly from one to the other and dont stop until they are unable to return the attack.

Thats not a very good explination of what I like about it, but its still early yet, let me get my mind working first.  

7sm


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## Matt Bernius (Jan 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by CloudChaser _
> *for anyone familiar with the shaolin 5 animals (dragon, tiger, leopard, crane, snake) what body type would be best suited for each animal form?
> 
> for instance, someone tall and lanky would most likely have it easier studying the crane style, right?
> ...


Couple things, body type doesn't really play a huge role in the animals. It's more about embodiment of each animal's personality.

Also these should be considered the "base" Shaolin animals. From these grew the other animal systems like Mantis, Eagle Claw, Monkey, and others.

Also note that there "rough" progressions through these arts. Tiger and Leopard were usually first. Then Crane. Then for the lucky Snake. Finally Dragon was reserved for the most advanced students as it embodied all of the previous five animals. Also as you progressed through these styles you moved from external systems into internal systems.

- Matt


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## 7starmantis (Jan 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Matt Bernius _
> *Also note that there "rough" progressions through these arts. Tiger and Leopard were usually first. Then Crane. Then for the lucky Snake. Finally Dragon was reserved for the most advanced students as it embodied all of the previous five animals. Also as you progressed through these styles you moved from external systems into internal systems.
> 
> - Matt *



Where did you get this information? I've never heard it said that one would be learned before the other.

7sm


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## CloudChaser (Jan 30, 2004)

7sm, i kinda understand what you mean about feeling your opponent's tension...  we do something along those lines during a session of 'sticky hands' where you're suppose to stay loose and counter when you feel your partner tightening up for an attack...  i didn't realize mantis style is so aggressive though... 

some schools may progress the students thru each animal form like what matt was saying... it may just depend on each sifu's teaching methods


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## markulous (Jan 30, 2004)

I haven't done too much of the animal dances.  I get pretty far into the tiger and crane from but the other animals, not too far.  I am 6'4" and I can go low but once I go so low I can't have that quick "pop up".

So I agree somewhat that certain body types are good for certain animals.  But if I can't do a certain part of a dance then I am going to add a different routine to my workout so I can.

I definately agree about the embodiment of their personalities though.  In my everyday life I am a crane.  Any conflicts that come up I try to basically difuse it.  In a fight I would get in and get out.  And if I am dominating my opponant I give him the chance to leave.  But underneath my crane their is a big tiger lurking around.  If someone comes at me with knife or gets me mad, I am just going to walk through the person.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by CloudChaser _
> *7sm, i kinda understand what you mean about feeling your opponent's tension...  we do something along those lines during a session of 'sticky hands' where you're suppose to stay loose and counter when you feel your partner tightening up for an attack...  i didn't realize mantis style is so aggressive though...
> 
> some schools may progress the students thru each animal form like what matt was saying... it may just depend on each sifu's teaching methods *



Yeah, we work ALOT of "feel" especially during Chi Saou (Sticky Hands). We even do following drills to enhance our ability to feel. When I got started in mantis, I didn't realize myself how aggressive it is, but it is by far the most aggressive system I have ever studied.

7sm


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## CloudChaser (Jan 31, 2004)

so how long have you studied mantis and does your school have a website?  i'd like to know a bit more about your sifu if you don't mind, 7sm...


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## 7starmantis (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by CloudChaser _
> *so how long have you studied mantis and does your school have a website?  i'd like to know a bit more about your sifu if you don't mind, 7sm... *



I've been studying mantis with sifu Brandon Jones for about 2 years now. We do have a website, www.tkff.com . However, it has just recently been registered, so I'm in the process of getting it all back up online, its a work in progress. Anything you like to know about my Sifu, I can let you know. You can even PM me if you like, but I don't mind sharing it on here.

7sm


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## Matt Bernius (Feb 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Where did you get this information? I've never heard it said that one would be learned before the other.
> 
> 7sm *



Ok, my understanding is that these systems were not developed all at once. They all occured within a short amount of time. The higher systems of Snake (which only attacked soft tissue) and Dragon (which combined all of the previous systems) were only taught to advanced students (mainly because these were more advanced concepts to grasp).

Also, in a true Shaolin system, the first thing that you learned was temple boxing which taught you your basic punches and kicks.

- Matt


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## 7starmantis (Feb 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Matt Bernius _
> *Ok, my understanding is that these systems were not developed all at once. They all occured within a short amount of time. The higher systems of Snake (which only attacked soft tissue) and Dragon (which combined all of the previous systems) were only taught to advanced students (mainly because these were more advanced concepts to grasp).
> 
> Also, in a true Shaolin system, the first thing that you learned was temple boxing which taught you your basic punches and kicks.
> ...



No thats cool, I'm not trying to doubt you, I'm just curious as to where you got that info, as I had never heard one was neccessarily learned before another.

7sm :asian:


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 1, 2004)

7starmantis
I just wanted to say that it look like a great begining for the web site. A good lay out and plenty of information will be there when its finished.
I just want to know how  they do that split It hurts my to even think of doing it


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## 7starmantis (Feb 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *7starmantis
> I just wanted to say that it look like a great begining for the web site. A good lay out and plenty of information will be there when its finished.
> I just want to know how  they do that split It hurts my to even think of doing it *



Thanks, I'm working hard on it, but I don't have alot of time to put towards it, so it will be a work in progress. 

Yeah, thats our Demo Team, it hurts me to think about doing those splits as well!! I guess at 12 years old its not as hard as at 26.

7sm


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## Ninway J (Feb 1, 2004)

7*

I read on another Mantis Kung Fu website that internal exercises are done to strengthen the hands instead of striking objects repeatedly.  The site mentioned that this is because striking objects makes the hands less sensitive.  Do you also do these internal exercises, and would it possibly be similar to a hard-style qi gong such as Iron Shirt?


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## 7starmantis (Feb 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Ninway J _
> *7*
> 
> I read on another Mantis Kung Fu website that internal exercises are done to strengthen the hands instead of striking objects repeatedly.  The site mentioned that this is because striking objects makes the hands less sensitive.  Do you also do these internal exercises, and would it possibly be similar to a hard-style qi gong such as Iron Shirt? *



Actually, we do traditional Iron body training, which involves starting with sand bags, going to rice, then steel bb's and such. We also use staffs and hard wood, such as a mook jong for arm and leg iron body training. I would imagine they were talking about basically hard qi gong, we do some of that as well, but most of our iron body training is very traditional. Basically what I've seen of the internal "iron body" would be basically liken to Iron shirt. What we do is very similar, but we also do some traditional qi gong. The sensitivity is a big deal in mantis, but we do alot of training on feeling and lots of drills on following and learning to feel.

7sm

7sm


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## CloudChaser (Feb 2, 2004)

your school website is nice, 7sm!  i'll keep checking for updated stuff...it's an all mantis school, right?  no other northern/southern styles mixed in?  and how many demos do you guys do?  thanks again for sharing!


i've just been recently introduced to iron shirt and it is an excellent way to build strength, and we also use weights when practicing our forms



here's a link to my school too if anyone's interested:
http://www.lvlohans.com/index.php


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## 7starmantis (Feb 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by CloudChaser _
> *your school website is nice, 7sm!  i'll keep checking for updated stuff...it's an all mantis school, right?  no other northern/southern styles mixed in?  and how many demos do you guys do?  thanks again for sharing!
> 
> i've just been recently introduced to iron shirt and it is an excellent way to build strength, and we also use weights when practicing our forms
> ...



Thank you, I liked your schools site as well. Your schools lion dance team must be really good, thats awesome! 

My school is straight 7* mantis, however we do get to pick up some other styles forms from my Sifu's sihings and sidai. One of them teaches Hung Gar, a few do some eagle claw, and Wah Lum. A few of our very basic forms are Wah Lum, so you don't get to 7* forms until you have been there a little while. Right now we are trying to build up our demo team, so we only do on average 3 demos a month or so. We are learning some good Lion Dance, so our demo team is a work in progress as well. I love lion dance, I'm just not ready to give up the time training in kung fu to really put the effort into lion dance.

A few of us have gotten some weighted vests for working out in, it really gives your forms a new workout. Of course some of our students use iron rings when working out as well, but most of us just use modern weights.

7sm


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## CloudChaser (Feb 2, 2004)

the school's atmosphere is also very loosely structured with a heavy emphasis on self-motivation...  if you want to learn more than what is limited to in practice, you are encouraged to take the initiative and ask... there are no drill sargeant-type instructors here... which can be a good or a bad thing depending on the individual and what they require to help them realize their potential

any thoughts on that?


and oh yeah, 7sm, what weapons do you guys get to learn and when are you allowed to start them?


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## 7starmantis (Feb 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by CloudChaser _
> *the school's atmosphere is also very loosely structured with a heavy emphasis on self-motivation...  if you want to learn more than what is limited to in practice, you are encouraged to take the initiative and ask... there are no drill sargeant-type instructors here... which can be a good or a bad thing depending on the individual and what they require to help them realize their potential
> 
> any thoughts on that?[/Q]*


*

Sounds like our school. Maybe its a kung fu thing, but we are very loosly structured when it comes to motivation. Our classes are structured to keep them moving and such in the beginner and intermediate classes, but sifu does alot of different stuff in the advanced class. We offer private lessons taught by the sihings, so you can get some extra training in if you like as well. We try and support as much outside training as possible. If you just do whats in class, your not doing a whole lot.




Originally posted by CloudChaser 
and oh yeah, 7sm, what weapons do you guys get to learn and when are you allowed to start them? 

Click to expand...


We learn most of the traditional chinese weapons. We start with staff, double daggers, broadsword, we even go to the Sum Gi Kuan, Kuan Do, Cern Sau Do, and of course the flute. Most of the traditional weapons we use.
We have a beginners weapons class which is about 4 or 5 months into your training, but they do not learn forms yet, just basics of handling the staff and broadsword. Mostly drills. Then when you get into the advanced class, you start really training with the weapons learning forms and two man sets as well. It normally takes about 1 1/2 years hard training to make it into advanced class. If your the average joe, probably 2 years.

What weapons do you guys learn? I'm learning the flute right now, and I really enjoy it, its very applicable to other weapons. Its also a pretty dangerous form, as far as the attacker goes.

7sm*


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## CloudChaser (Feb 2, 2004)

i'm still working on my staff form... i'm using a chinese waxwood which is fairly light and flexible... what i'm having trouble with is this jumping spinning crescent kick near the end of the form, and i think it's because i'm not getting enough height and momentum... i can't seem to land without stumbling yet...

i've seen other students work with spear, saber, and straight sword...  there are many other weapons hanging on the walls of the school that i'm not familiar with though...

the weapons i particularly want to master are the staff and saber!  those forms are sooooo awesome to watch, especially the leaping parts!


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## CloudChaser (Feb 2, 2004)

oh yeah, i forgot to ask... what's a flute?


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## 7starmantis (Feb 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by CloudChaser _
> *i'm still working on my staff form... i'm using a chinese waxwood which is fairly light and flexible... what i'm having trouble with is this jumping spinning crescent kick near the end of the form, and i think it's because i'm not getting enough height and momentum... i can't seem to land without stumbling yet...
> 
> i've seen other students work with spear, saber, and straight sword...  there are many other weapons hanging on the walls of the school that i'm not familiar with though...
> ...



Yeah, I really like our staff forms, I'm kind of a big guy, so staff works well with me. I also love the broadsword forms! I'm learning one now called Yin Ching and it is really hard. Yeah, any jumping spinning kick takes practice to land securly.  
How long have you been studying? Did you study anything before?



> _Originally posted by CloudChaser _
> *oh yeah, i forgot to ask... what's a flute?*



Its a small straight musical instrument 
Actually, traditionally it is a small bamboo flute, like you would hear in some chinese music. The form is using it like a small pipe or something. Its about a foot long maybe, 2 inches thick. Alot of tmeple strikes as well as groin, back of the knee, and throat strikes. Pretty devastating form. Alot of people laugh when they hear the flute as a weapon, but if you were to do the form with a metal pipe, or somethign really solid, it would be deadly.

7sm


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## CloudChaser (Feb 3, 2004)

the staff is awkward for me since i'm only 5'2", but i like it anyways because it offers me additional length for attack and defense... 

i've only trained in shaolin kung fu for a year, but previously, i also took a semester of TKD in college and then, a year of traditionally taught hsing-i... i received a fairly good foundation in the basics, i think...

a bamboo flute, eh? welllll, if a fan can be used as a weapon, then why not a musical instrument! the flute is almost shaped like a claw so i do believe you when you say it can be deadly!   

the broadsword is a fearsome-looking weapon, like the japanese katana, right?  trust me though, with my 'puny' size and stature, i wouldn't look very intimidating wielding it, ha ha...  i'll stick with the slimmer and more agile straight sword, thank-u-very-much!


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## 7starmantis (Feb 3, 2004)

Haha, yeah there are certain weapons that look better with diferent people. I'm 6' 2" so some of the smaller weapons (including the flute of course) do not look very intimidating with me holding them either!  

7sm


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## Ninway J (Feb 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by CloudChaser _
> *i've just been recently introduced to iron shirt and it is an excellent way to build strength, and we also use weights when practicing our forms
> *



Yeah, Iron Shirt is kewl.  I don't know about you, but it's difficult for me to do Iron Bar and Iron Bridge for more than a couple minutes.  It's amazing, the feeling I get after doing the forms.  I kind of feel numb, and stronger.  My sifu told me not to do Iron Shirt and taiji at the same time, for now, because it's not good to mix hard and soft styles.



> *the school's atmosphere is also very loosely structured with a heavy emphasis on self-motivation... if you want to learn more than what is limited to in practice, you are encouraged to take the initiative and ask... there are no drill sargeant-type instructors here... which can be a good or a bad thing depending on the individual and what they require to help them realize their potential
> 
> any thoughts on that?*



Yeah, it must be a CMA thing.  In Taiji class, we go through the whole form once, and then sifu lets us ask questions or choose what part of the form to go over.  It seems like we really need to take the initiative to ask questions in order to learn more.  A bit different from my past sensei, or what I've seen in Japanese martial arts, for example.  In a way, I'd rather be just shown without asking, because I'm used to it, but then again I do have lots of questions to ask all the time, so it's all good.


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## 7starmantis (Feb 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Ninway J _
> *Yeah, it must be a CMA thing.*



You know, I think there is something to that. Most Sifus I know would rather let a student walk out of their door than make them train. If your not training hard, they wont teach you anything. My Sigung has said many times that he would see people go over horse stance for months and months until they were ready to work hard.

7sm


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## CloudChaser (Feb 4, 2004)

sure, it's more rewarding for the teacher when they see the desire to learn, but what about the students who tend to be shy and are afraid to ask?   you can't just ignore them, right?

for the staff experts out there, i need advice on figure-8 twirling please!  i've found that if you grip with your hands closer together, you can twirl faster but then, your elbows kinda stick out and the staff sometimes whacks you on the side of your thighs... is my technique totally wrong or what???


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## 7starmantis (Feb 4, 2004)

Grip the staff a little closer than shoulder length apart. Use your waist to make the "roll". Your staff should almost be touching your rib cage when your waist turns (just your waist) in towards that side, allowing you to complete the flower. (we call them flowers) Your waist has to turn quite a bit on each side to allow the "unwinding" of your arms. The secret to quick, powerful, and correct flowers(figure 8) is all in the waist.

7sm


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## 7starmantis (Feb 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by CloudChaser _
> *sure, it's more rewarding for the teacher when they see the desire to learn, but what about the students who tend to be shy and are afraid to ask?   you can't just ignore them, right?*



Thats very true, and I think that is what makes alot of people quit CMA in general. I honestly do. I think its ahrd to get over a traditional approach, but in today's society, an instructor should make a concerted effort to include everyone, and be aware of each students needs.

Observation is the key.

7sm


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## CloudChaser (Feb 5, 2004)

thanks for the staff tip, 7sm! keeping the staff closer to my rib cage as i'm twirling it really does help!  i practiced with a dowel in front of a mirror and there is quite a difference as i'm watching my arm and waist movements!  <bows with appreciation>


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## 7starmantis (Feb 5, 2004)

> _Originally posted by CloudChaser _
> *thanks for the staff tip, 7sm! keeping the staff closer to my rib cage as i'm twirling it really does help!  i practiced with a dowel in front of a mirror and there is quite a difference as i'm watching my arm and waist movements!  <bows with appreciation> *



:asian:  Your very welcome! Glad you could benefit from my pain, sweat, and blood!! I'm very blessed to have an amazing sifu who works on every detail with me, so I'm glad I could help out.

7sm


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## CloudChaser (Feb 19, 2004)

in class recently, we've been modifying our basic southern and northern forms into the 5 animal forms... (for example, instead of a straight punch, you'd apply a tiger claw or leopard fist, etc)  the difficult part is to visualize becoming that particular animal and move accordingly... the tiger seems to be the "easiest" because of its emphasis on straightforward aggression and raw strength... i like the leopard's speed and agile power, but i haven't been able to capture it quite yet... don't even ask me to demonstrate a snake's suppleness or a crane's gracefulness because my flexibility and coordination leave much to be desired, bleah... i'd love to be able to combine the dragon's ability to be soft yet strong...

sooooooooooo, suggestions anyone?  what can you do to better become one with your animal form?  watching Nature Planet would probably help, eh?  ;D


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## Ninway J (Feb 21, 2004)

Spar with the animal you wish to immitate.  :uhyeah:

Believe it or not, if you can come out alive, I think that's the best training ever!

Personally, I learned cat-like reflexes from watching (and causing trouble) to my cat.  Try causing trouble to your pet cat and get away without a scratch or bite.


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## markulous (Feb 22, 2004)

Ninway J said:
			
		

> Spar with the animal you wish to immitate.  :uhyeah:
> 
> Believe it or not, if you can come out alive, I think that's the best training ever!
> 
> Personally, I learned cat-like reflexes from watching (and causing trouble) to my cat.  Try causing trouble to your pet cat and get away without a scratch or bite.



That's actually exactly what my Sifu did.  To me, it is useful to a point.  I think the footwork to a cat is the most useful.

I have a pretty big rottweiler and he's not exactly the nicest dog so when I try to play with him he gets pretty mad.  It's useful to try and dodge him and get him in holds and lightly tap him when you see openings.  Laying on the ground is good too.  It limits my strikes a lot and makes me have to "feel" more.


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## Shou Shu Blue (Mar 2, 2004)

CloudChaser said:
			
		

> for anyone familiar with the shaolin 5 animals (dragon, tiger, leopard, crane, snake) what body type would be best suited for each animal form?
> 
> for instance, someone tall and lanky would most likely have it easier studying the crane style, right?
> 
> i think it'd be extraordinary for someone to master all 5 animal styles equally well...



the problem with saying master all 5 is that, most systems that teach the 5 animals dont teach them as individual styles. You dont learn core then at black you learn each animal individually. you learn all the animals at once and honestly they arent complete forms of each animal. 

Just what i have seen with 5 animal systems. 

Salute, 

Blue


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## Tony (Mar 3, 2004)

CloudChaser said:
			
		

> your school website is nice, 7sm!  i'll keep checking for updated stuff...it's an all mantis school, right?  no other northern/southern styles mixed in?  and how many demos do you guys do?  thanks again for sharing!
> 
> 
> i've just been recently introduced to iron shirt and it is an excellent way to build strength, and we also use weights when practicing our forms
> ...



Hi Cloudchaser

I was looking at your Kung Fu site and it looks awesome! My classes are in a training hall of a Sports centre that my Sifu has to hire and for our grading he has found a local community centre! I wish we had somewhere full time we could practice everyday! I know there are places in England where, not as many in the states, where there are Martial Arts schools/Academies but I think they are probably more expensive to run!, and my instructor has a full time job on top! I only train twice a week but I practice as much as I can when I'm not in class!


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## CloudChaser (Mar 3, 2004)

greetings to you as well, Tony <bows politely and grins>  

unfortunately, our training center is not as big as it seems from the website pic... our sifu is currently searching for a bigger building to accomodate the growing number of students, for both kung fu AND tai chi classes... oftentimes, we would end up practicing in the parking lot outside! (which can become a minor inconvenience when you're doing forms while also having to keep an eye out for cars that might unexpectedly run you over, heh)... 

since we're a non-profit organization, class fees are significantly lower than other martial arts schools in our area... funding is mostly supplemented by donations from various demos 

i only train 2x/week too and i don't practice as much as i should (shhhh, don't tell my sifu now!), but i've been told that i have improved much from the time i started a year ago... go me, yay! hehe

so Tony, where in England do you study?  i'm planning to check out London in late May so who knows, maybe i'll get a chance to visit your school!


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## Tony (Mar 4, 2004)

CloudChaser said:
			
		

> greetings to you as well, Tony <bows politely and grins>
> 
> unfortunately, our training center is not as big as it seems from the website pic... our sifu is currently searching for a bigger building to accomodate the growing number of students, for both kung fu AND tai chi classes... oftentimes, we would end up practicing in the parking lot outside! (which can become a minor inconvenience when you're doing forms while also having to keep an eye out for cars that might unexpectedly run you over, heh)...
> 
> ...



Hi Cloudchaser

Well I can give our website which is www.aftma.org.uk and that will tell you about our style and what we do. I practice near Oxford in a town called Abingdon at the local Sports Centre! This is quite common over here, even though there are some full time schools but they're very few and far between.
In London there are probably more Martial Arts to look at, maybe you could do a search on Dojosearch.com (i think thats the name of the site). So remind me, what style of Kung Fu do you do?
Luckily we have more than enough space to practice in the hall! And its also fortunate that we practice in a Sports centre that attracts other people to come and watch and see if they would like to give it a go!
Although we do get new people and the classes have grown slowly, there is still enough room for everyone to practice! You mentioned your classes sometimes spill out onto the Parking lot!
I found my present club purely by accident. My instructor has sent out leaflets and left them in the reception area of the sports centre. I guess over here we don't advertise as well as in America.


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## CloudChaser (Mar 4, 2004)

thanks for your link Tony, but i couldn't see much except a page stating something about the grading update... oh well, maybe i'll try looking it up thru Google

anyways, my school teaches shaolin style kung fu... a combination of both northern and southern styles with a special focus on tai chi mantis...

yang/chen tai chi are also offered as well as chi kung classes

the only ads i've seen for my school is the occasional leaflet at our local chinatown and a spot in the phone book...sometimes, we do get free advertisement thru tv when we perform demos so that helps too

i'm always suspicious about the schools with the big ads... they're usually too commercial for me and i can imagine how much the testing fees must cost!


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## Tony (Mar 5, 2004)

CloudChaser said:
			
		

> thanks for your link Tony, but i couldn't see much except a page stating something about the grading update... oh well, maybe i'll try looking it up thru Google
> 
> anyways, my school teaches shaolin style kung fu... a combination of both northern and southern styles with a special focus on tai chi mantis...
> 
> ...



You should be able to find various boxes that you can click on! My Class teaches Shaolin aswell with various styles such as Mantis, Eagle claw and some animal styles!  Its seems everywhere you go the Taekwondo schools have fliers and posters up! I think  Taekwondo must be one of the most popular styles because nearly everyone has heard of it but Kung Fu is still shrouded in mystery! I often get people confusing My kung fu with Judo or Karate! My friends will say " so when's you judo/karate class" and I annoyingly say "KUNGFU".
Look at the site again and hopefully you'll get more information. It sounds like our classes are similar but we don't do a lot of tai chi!
Last night was a killer, because we had to do everything at speed last night. Because we weren't fast enough in some cases my instructor made us do situps but if he says 20 situps it never is because its always when he says we can stop! Also we had to do some kicks with partners, running to meet them in the middle of the hall and doing 15 types of kicks on each leg! and if we weren't doing it properly we would have to do 750 star jumps! Great workout though!


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## 7starmantis (Mar 5, 2004)

Tony said:
			
		

> I often get people confusing My kung fu with Judo or Karate! My friends will say " so when's you judo/karate class" and I annoyingly say "KUNGFU".


LOL  Yup, I get that ALL the time too! "How's your Karate going"? "Oh, so you know Karate"? Even close friends or family members!! Oh well, its just that people have their intrests and they all differ.

7sm


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## Tony (Mar 5, 2004)

Hi 7*

How are you? You know if we were both doing Taekwondo or Karate I don't think people would get so confused! Its sad I know but there it is! Even though they my friends know i study Kung Fu they will jokingly say judo or karate. I think this is because Kung Fu was always a closed system for many years for non chinese people! However the Koreans and Japanese had no problems with teaching other nations their Art, in order that it might grow!
The Chinese communities have a strong sense of tradition and so I guess it has been hard to change, but how lucky for us that they have!
I resent it when my friend or anyone else says to me, "why don't you be a man, do Taekwondo?" making a negative assumption that my training is easy! huh!! But if ever a Kung Fu practioner has to defend him or herself their attackers won't know what they were injured with! ( unless the attacker is a fellow martial artist with no honour!)


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## 7starmantis (Mar 5, 2004)

Yeah, its odd how many people assume kung fu training is easy or unrelated to fighting, when in reality it is the complete oposite. I'll get that from time to time, when people will make comments about being a man, and studying something thats hard, or make wise cracks about me practicing a "soft" system. Its ok though because I know the truth. 

I did have a nice moment once however, when some buddies of mine were at a party with a bunch of classmates from college. There ended up being a fight and, in accordance with my luck, I was caught in the middle. I tried to stay out of it as much as possible but when it got to the point where I was going to get hurt I had to defend myself. I applied a few takedowns with a few heel piercing kicks and 5 or 6 punches and it was over. Not really much to talk about, but it was so funny, all my buddies showed up at my kung fu school the next week to take lessons! Hardly any of them are still there but it was a nice moment! 

7sm


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## Tony (Mar 5, 2004)

You know another comment this so called friend of mine made was when we were all out for a night out! He invited some of his friends from his Taekwondo class, these 3 girls all of whom seemed quite nice! Anyway one of the topics of conversation was on Taekwondo. I was talking to one of these girls and she asked me "why don't you try Taekwondo?" I said I did but preferred Kung fu! Then my friend said "Taekwondo is too fierce for you!"
I laughed because he has no idea of the devestating techniques Kung Fu has such as the clawing motions of Tiget claws, ripping nerves and arteries, eye gouges and my training is hardly a walk in the park! There are techniques we don't train in because they are too dangerous! I guarantee every lesson I will come out sweating! I came out the other night sweating so much, funny considering all the ice on my car, I was trying to cool myself down with a cold can of coke! But the thing is Taekwondo is heavily influenced from Karate and Kung fu especially all the flashy kicks that originate from the Northern Styles! I once told him this but he got offended when I was only trying to give him some information on his particular style! I guess he finds it hard to be lecture from someone younger than himself.(I'm 26 and he's 34 and has only just been doing taekwondo for 2 years and I have been studying Kung for for nearly 6) Also being interested in History I have many books on different styles and have quite a lot of knowledge about different Martial Arts, but I don't claim to be an expert or know it all!
However I have not been in a position to prove myself to this person although he challenged me to a sparring match, i knew it was just a way of him wanting to boost his ego! I refused and he got annoyed calling me gay but I didn't care! And when he wants to start a fight with someone me and my other friend will talk him out of it! Even when I'm sparring I will be courteous to my opponent, but I know from the stories he tells he does go pretty wild when he is sparring and hardly ever uses good technique! He has been warned by his instructor for his excessive contact!
I was sparring the other night, and unfortunately I caught the eye I was sparring in the groin, I didn't mean to and offered to wait for him to recover, I guess i'm just too nice!


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## CloudChaser (Mar 5, 2004)

hear, hear!  it's the same thing with me too... a chinese friend of mine likes to affectionately call me 'karate kid' even when she knows i'm doing kung fu!  sheesh, i guess 'karate kid' rolls better on the tongue than 'kung fu kid', ha ha...  

you'd think that with all the kung fu flicks out there now as well as the david carradine tv series with the same name, ppl would acknowledge this style with a bit more respect...  it's like we're just 'chop-socky' stuff compared to the likes of karate and tkd... maybe the movies exaggerate the action too much and kung fu starts looking unrealistic and 'hollywood-phony' influencing ppl to underestimate the real thing and not to take it as seriously?


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## CloudChaser (Mar 5, 2004)

p.s.  we did the 5 animal striking drills a last night and today, i can barely lift a cup of tea without wincing!  my forearms, wrists, palms, shoulders, and back are still sore, ugh... 
anyone who calls kung fu a wussy style need only to attempt an hour of the advanced class to convince them otherwise!


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## 7starmantis (Mar 7, 2004)

Hah, I hear that!! We had a guy come in to try our Intro class the other night, he threw up (First person to do that in our Intro class ever) but then called back and said he was not coming back because he wouldn't pay money to do something that hard! LOL  Thats ok with me, I don't like cleaning up barf anyways!


7sm


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## Tony (Mar 8, 2004)

Hi 7*

We have had all kinds of people come to our class and I think they have not come back because they have found it hard! My instructor told me of a couple of guys, one who I think was a body builder and found it extremely hard because he could not hold his own weight whole sitting in the various stances and a guy from taekwondo who was a Olympic Champion, but after sparring with my Instructor was on his backside and couldn't understand why!
I don't want to be negative about other people and what they study but it proves that Kung Fu is a good style!
I fear we have gone a little off topic here! So I really need to make this more relevant.  All these stances that are hard originate from many different animals. Obviously as humans we find them difficult because we are not used to moving like that, to the animal kingdom its part of who they are.


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## CloudChaser (Mar 8, 2004)

and speaking of animals, heh... is the basic horse stance suppose to hurt if you're doing it correctly???  i'm assuming yes because the only encouragement i got was to block out the pain, geez... my knees are bad enough as it is!!!  

last night's beginner's class was required to hold the stance with a staff on their lap for a mere 10 seconds but of course, not 2 seconds later, we'd hear a loud clatter from someone unable to maintain the proper position...which meant everyone had to restart the count again sooooooo by the time it was all over, we ended up doing the horse stance for more than the originally required 10 seconds!  i found out later that the poor guy who kept dropping his staff was a newbie who had only been attending for a month and just couldn't get down in a low enough sitting position to prevent it from rolling off...  the instructor finally realized something was amiss after about the 6th! <grimaces> time it was dropped and got one of the advanced students to help him keep it in place... the worse part was not so much the pain as having to witness the immaturity level of one of the other students who groaned with disgust and yelled at the guy for not being able to hold his staff in place and making us have to repeat the stance again and again...but i, uh, digress...sorry!


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## Tony (Mar 9, 2004)

Hi cloudchaser 

I know when I'm doing a horse stance my legs will be shaking. My instructor will always make us try and go low! When we perform forms, if he makes us do a form together we will have to be in the correct posture and he won't let us continue to the next move until we are low enough!
I have also had the staff on my thighs while in a low Horse stance. And it hurts! My instructor doesn't usually get any beginners to do that particular exercise until they are a higher grade! Obviously everyone is worked hard and its such a friendly class, there is no one criticising anyone for bad form or technique. 
As for that person shouting at the beginner, he should learn some humility, because he was once a beginner himself and should help that person not belittle him!


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## RHD (Mar 9, 2004)

Tony said:
			
		

> Hi cloudchaser
> 
> I know when I'm doing a horse stance my legs will be shaking. My instructor will always make us try and go low! When we perform forms, if he makes us do a form together we will have to be in the correct posture and he won't let us continue to the next move until we are low enough!
> I have also had the staff on my thighs while in a low Horse stance. And it hurts! My instructor doesn't usually get any beginners to do that particular exercise until they are a higher grade! Obviously everyone is worked hard and its such a friendly class, there is no one criticising anyone for bad form or technique.
> As for that person shouting at the beginner, he should learn some humility, because he was once a beginner himself and should help that person not belittle him!



Sometimes its for the better of the class and the art, if those who can't or won't...don't.
Mike


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## 7starmantis (Mar 10, 2004)

CloudChaser said:
			
		

> and speaking of animals, heh... is the basic horse stance suppose to hurt if you're doing it correctly??? i'm assuming yes because the only encouragement i got was to block out the pain, geez... my knees are bad enough as it is!!!


Heh, horse stance = pain. I think one of the benefits of it is learning to push through pain. I would say horse stance is probably one of if not the most painful thing in kung fu. Focusing on your breathing helps a bit to take your mind of the pain. Breath slowly, in through your nose, out through your mouth, very slowly it really helps and the time goes by quicker. My next test is 5 minutes of horse stance at the beginning, it will be hard!

7sm


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## Tony (Mar 10, 2004)

We were doing some stance work last night! While we were watching some one else performing their forms we had to sit against a wall, thighs paralell to the gound, for 2 minutes then after that place our feet against the wall and our hands pushing on the floor so we were at a right angle. That takes a lot of strength, but I find I can do that position really well!
Thanks for your suggestion on the Horse stance 7*! We are told to breathe but I think I will do that, breathe slower! I need to practice my stances more at home! especially with regards to where my feet are and balance!
Some of these stances are so awkward such as la kwei ma where you squat down, with one knee nearly touching the floor but you aren't resting on your foot. I guess we in the west have it relatively easy compared to the Chinese Martial Artists who have to practice horse stances for hours on end!


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## WLMantisKid (Apr 18, 2004)

Heh you don't know horse stance pain untill you hold correct 7* horse stance or correct cat horse stance for about 30 seconds  Normal horse stance no longer bothers me ... it's every OTHER horse stance that gets to me


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## 7starmantis (Apr 18, 2004)

Yeah, we go through all 8 basic stances stopping and holding each one for a minute. That REALLY hurts!

7sm


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## WLMantisKid (Apr 18, 2004)

I dont think that would bother me quite as much as what we normally do in a class.

We hold our arms straight out parallel with our palms perpendicular to the floor. You dont feel your horse stances during that.


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## 7starmantis (Apr 19, 2004)

Oh yeah, the old shoulder trick! That ones tough, but its good for adding time to horse stance since you aren't focusing on the horse stance. My sifu's idea is that if your in the advanced class then at any moment during class you should be able to drop into 5 minutes of horse stance either with arms out like you discribed, arms in front using the weighted pipe to strengthen the forearms or using the weighted polls across the knees. The worst is after an hour of class when you've been working really hard then he says, ok Say Ping Ma (horse stance)!! 

So I feel your pain, oh do I ever feel it!!  

7sm


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## WLMantisKid (Apr 19, 2004)

oh yeah man, fun stuff that is. After doing the horse stances forwards and backwards on both sides, you realize your elbows are beant and you cant even force them back up anymore. And after that - it's time for all the forms!  Arms like limp noodles trying to do emphasis on 8 chain punch.


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## Josephk (Apr 19, 2004)

what directions do your feet point in the kung fu horse stance? because in the karate i do, we use two stances which i think are similar to your stance. in shotokan we do kiba dachi, with the feet pointing as straight forward as possible, and in goju ryu we do shiko dachi, with the feet pointing out at 45 degree angles, is that the same as your horse stance?


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## WLMantisKid (Apr 19, 2004)

Our Say Ping Ma (riding horse stance) is always with feet pointing forward and parallel.


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## RHD (Apr 19, 2004)

Josephk said:
			
		

> what directions do your feet point in the kung fu horse stance? because in the karate i do, we use two stances which i think are similar to your stance. in shotokan we do kiba dachi, with the feet pointing as straight forward as possible, and in goju ryu we do shiko dachi, with the feet pointing out at 45 degree angles, is that the same as your horse stance?



In good CMA you'll neve see a horse stance with the toes pointing outward. 

One of the fundemental differences between Japanese, Okinawan, and Chinese martial arts is the stance work.  Chinese martial arts sink into thier stances a lot more than Japanese of Okinawan.  When I say sinking, I don't mean that this is measured in terms if height alone.  Chinese sink down into their stances when they do a movement, this drop, however slight it may be, is an essential part of generating power.  There is no concept of keeping your head at the same height throughout a form.  Also, in CMA ther is some degree of forward tilt in the pelvis.  This is extremely uncomfortable with the toes pointing outward, creating tension in the lower back.  In addition, I really don't advocate the toes outward horse stance as it readily exposes the extremely sensitve pressure points/nerves on the inside of the legs and puts undue pressure on the knees.
Mike


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