# Ethical Hunting



## Shuto (Sep 25, 2009)

Last weekend I got a call out of the blue from an old friend who is interested in bow-hunting some deer on our property.  We had talked about this years ago but he never followed through until now.  I'm all for it and he came over so that I could give him a feel for the property lines.  Yesterday, he came over and set up a deer stand.   I went for a walk last evening and saw his stand.  I also noticed that he had placed a block of salt near the stand.  

Let me add a few observations.  Our location has three acre zoning but some people own more.  We have ~ six acres and so do those who surround us.   It's too dense for using a gun IMO and the County agrees with me.  Bow hunting is the best choice but the layout pretty much precludes any open field shots.  Thus, the stand is located in the woods.  

Over the last year I have found two dead deer on my property and I saw another road kill a stones throw from our driveway.  Yet, I see no noticable diminution of the deer population.  I see them on or around our property at least twice a week when I'm working and more often when I am home.  When I see one, I usually see four.   Deer are not in short supply around here.

I've always been against using salt to attract deer for hunting but this was more of a reaction than a well thought out position.  Seeing the salt, in this case, triggered some reflection by me on the issue of baiting deer.    

After giving it some thought, I don't have a problem with it, at least in this case.  Deer are numerous and it really would not be a problem shooting at them even without the bait.  The bait, however, may set up a better kill shot which is really in the best interest of all involved.  

Thoughts?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 25, 2009)

Deer are numerous here in Michigan as well and ethical hunting in order to keep the population in check is some thing that is very important.  Baiting is no different then putting a worm on a hook.  It serves a purpose and is effective.  

Hunting is some thing that in my opinion every martial practitioner should try/practice as it gives you some effective skill sets for growing up in the world.


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## shesulsa (Sep 25, 2009)

I'm okay with responsible hunting to a point. We've seen many cases of what an imbalance in the species chain can do to the ecosystem and livability of all species.  Fishing is no exception - there are so few wild salmon in our local waters here that no one was permitted to catch them for about year (I think). Of course, the population is still too low, but now folks can go catch salmon now.

As far as baiting the deer in your area, it sounds like they are locally prolific and with the homes in such proximity, it's probably a good idea to draw them away from the homes and towards wilderness where they can be hunted with the safety of neighbors in mind - and I would agree that bow hunting would be much more appropriate in such a case.


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## Shuto (Sep 25, 2009)

I don't think the worm example is a fair comparison. You really don't have any other option to catch fish but to use bait or lures unless you're going to use a net. Sure, you could spear fish in shallow water but that really isn't an option for catching many kinds of fish. Mammals, on the other hand, don't require any kind of bait or lure to practiaclly hunt them. 

I have no reservations about using whatever advantage one posses to hunt in a survivalist situation. That's not the case here. This guy has a good steady job and in no way is he dependent upon hunting for his existence. His motivation is something else. 

So, if the motivation is to match his wile and skill against the animals wile and skill, isn't that goal being reduced by the use of a lure? I think it is, but there's something to be said for getting a clean kill as well. And also, what's the difference between using bait and using a dear stand? What's the difference between that and using a gun and killing a deer from 200 yrds away? The animals wile and skill are greatly reduced, to say the least, at that range.

My motivation is to reduce the deer population. I can't prove it but I suspect that the two deer I found dead last March died of starvation. I've also seen our woods noticably change over the last ten to 15 years. The underbrush has been greatly reduced. I've even read predictions that the climax forest in some parts of the country is going to change due to deer overgrazing. Using bait to reduce population makes sense to me. Using bait to improve ones Martial Arts skills doesn't make sense to me unless, as you point out, there are other motivations as well.


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## celtic_crippler (Sep 25, 2009)

As long as they share! That's some good eatin'!  MMmmm...Mmmmm Bambi-Burgers! :fanboy:


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## K-man (Sep 25, 2009)

Shuto said:


> Last weekend I got a call out of the blue from an old friend who is interested in bow-hunting some deer on our property. We had talked about this years ago but he never followed through until now. I'm all for it and he came over so that I could give him a feel for the property lines. Yesterday, he came over and set up a deer stand. I went for a walk last evening and saw his stand. I also noticed that he had placed a block of salt near the stand.


Sorry, this does nothing for me. It is not 'ethical hunting' it is target practice with a live target. If you want to hunt, hunt. But, you hunt in your prey's territory, actually finding your prey. If you're hunting to reduce a feral pest, great. If you're hunting for food, fine. If you're just hunting to kill, I have a problem with that. Whatever the reason for hunting there is one big proviso. The kill should be clean and the animal must not suffer. That, to me, is 'ethical hunting'.  :asian:


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## elder999 (Sep 26, 2009)

It's not hunting-it's _harvesting_. 

Me personally, I'm not into baiting. Closest I come is using chum for deep sea fishing. I don't know as I'd call it unethical under the circumstances outlined-deer are a nuisance in some places, and it is private property. Again, I wouldn't do it-not like the deer aren't there, anyway-that's why your friend is setting up. I'd say he needs to do a little more scouting and find a better spot on your property, but that's me, and I haven't seen your property, so what do I know?

Not hunting, though, _harvesting_.


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## shesulsa (Sep 26, 2009)

To play my favorite game - Devil's Advocate - those opposed to this particular practice, please offer your solution to the deer overcrowding problem (to the point where they are starving to death).


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## elder999 (Sep 26, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> To play my favorite game - Devil's Advocate - those opposed to this particular practice, please offer your solution to the deer overcrowding problem (to the point where they are starving to death).


 
Well, just in case, I didn't say I was opposed; I said that I-as a hunter-wouldn't do it. Meaning, of course, put out a salt lick. And, I called it what it is: harvesting. With that said, I don't have any particular opposition to it-I just wouldn't call it "hunting," with or without the salt lick. What I'd _probably_ do is look for better blind or tree stand placement.The deer are already frequenting the property, and are probably habituated to people somewhat, from the brief description of the area, anyway..........


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## K-man (Sep 26, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> To play my favorite game - Devil's Advocate - those opposed to this particular practice, please offer your solution to the deer overcrowding problem (to the point where they are starving to death).


I have no issue with culling and I have no issue with hunting. I  have eaten every animal I have killed. (Apart from rats, mice and cane toads.) I do not like to see any animal suffer so if you are culling, a head shot from a competent marksman is my preferred option.  To lure an animal into a position, using a bait, to use your bow and arrow is not hunting, it is killing for the sake of killing, or as I said before, target practice with a live target. In no way could you consider it 'ethical hunting' which is the title of this thread.


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## elder999 (Sep 26, 2009)

K-man said:


> To lure an animal into a position, using a bait, to use your bow and arrow is not hunting, it is killing for the sake of killing, or as I said before, target practice with a live target. In no way could you consider it 'ethical hunting' which is the title of this thread.


 
Mmm...not so sure about this.Luring animals in with _calls_ is a pretty common hunting practice-though not one I'm always fond of. I've also set myself up where I knew an animal would come to drink water, eat or bed down-more times than I can count, actually, knowing I'd have a good shot when the animal came into position. And I don't see much wrong with using a bow, if one is competent in its use, anyway-I've killed quite a few deer with mine, as well as a couple of elk, turkeys (though they usually outsmart me-it's *fun* to get beaten by something with a brain the size of the tip of my thumb! :lol: )rabbits beyond counting,  and even a bass or three. In fact, with the exception of elk, a bow is pretty much my preference for hunting.


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## Shuto (Sep 26, 2009)

K-man said:


> In no way could you consider it 'ethical hunting' which is the title of this thread.



The title was actually a mistake on my part.  It should have had a question after it.


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## Shuto (Sep 26, 2009)

I found this an interesting read.  It talks about disease implication of baiting amongst other things.  

link

I found this interesting as well.  

The MDHA's Johnson sees increased illegal baiting as a symptom of larger societal problems -- namely laziness and impatience. Johnson said people's lives are so busy that they aren't stopping to enjoy the real attractions of deer season and deer camp -- fresh air in the autumn woods, the annual gathering of friends, and matching wits with nature.
 "Baiting is part of the quest for instant gratification. Some people don't want to work for what they get,'' Johnson said. "What's sad is that many of these people haven't figured out that the really good part of hunting is working for it.''




Back to my situation.  Let me point out that my friend chose a good spot as far as I can tell.  It is right where the deer cross a small stream.  Their well worn path is clear for anyone to see.  The bait won't lure them to a place that they wouldn't normally be, it just might make them linger there a bit longer.


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## elder999 (Sep 26, 2009)

Shuto said:


> . The bait won't lure them to a place that they wouldn't normally be, it just might make them linger there a bit longer.


 

They'll be there, though, and it's likely that they'll take water-he shouldn't need a salt lick.

Just my opinion, though........


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## Shuto (Sep 26, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> To play my favorite game - Devil's Advocate - those opposed to this particular practice, please offer your solution to the deer overcrowding problem (to the point where they are starving to death).




I don't think that bait is a necessary component for responsible hunting/culling/killing in this case.  All it does is increase the odds that the shooter will have a good shot. If it stopped there, I would have to rethink my position, but a good shot also increases the odds of a clean kill.  I like that aspect of the equation very much.  

Is this really that much different than putting a scope on a rifle?


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 26, 2009)

Shuto said:


> Last weekend I got a call out of the blue from an old friend who is interested in bow-hunting some deer on our property. We had talked about this years ago but he never followed through until now. I'm all for it and he came over so that I could give him a feel for the property lines. Yesterday, he came over and set up a deer stand. I went for a walk last evening and saw his stand. I also noticed that he had placed a block of salt near the stand.
> 
> Let me add a few observations. Our location has three acre zoning but some people own more. We have ~ six acres and so do those who surround us. It's too dense for using a gun IMO and the County agrees with me. Bow hunting is the best choice but the layout pretty much precludes any open field shots. Thus, the stand is located in the woods.
> 
> ...


 
Some states and local laws prohibit baiting during hunting season, but not before or after. This gets the deer used to wondering on to the property where the bait is. 

Now, is it some great kill or test of skill to be above a bait pile and shoot a deer? That is a philisophical discussion I do not have time for today, but I will say the following.

A group or culture has Morals

Individuals have Values

Society has ethics

Society has Laws. 

It may be ethical do something and unthical to do something else. Society debates the issue and passes a law. 

We all could (should) agree that Murdering our nice neighbors next door in cold blood is not very moral act. And as an individual I value life and value the idea that if there is nothing to persuade them not too, then the neighbors could come after me. (* Not a gun debate please, as I support the right to carry and the issue of bad guys are not the nice neighbors next door I am talking about. *) Society for a very long time as said this is a bad thing. Society has also passed laws against it. 

The laws allow for punishment for thsoe who break the law or the ethics of the society. 

So is it ethical to hunt? Yes.

Is it ethical to bait? (* depends upon local customs and society dictacts and even the Law. *)


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