# I am confused



## Manny (Apr 5, 2010)

What is the diference beetwen the Tang Soo Do and the Soo Back Do? As long as I know both MA come from one and only master (Hwang Kee), don't know if master Kee fisrt invented TSD and then this evolved in SBD or what? can you help me to understand this and waht are the diferences beetwen both Korean Martila Arts?

Manny


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## MBuzzy (Apr 5, 2010)

They were at one time the same art.  Hwang Kee originally called his style Tang Soo Do.  Over the years, the name was changed and slowly people separated from the organization.  As more separated and continued using the name Tang Soo Do, Hwang Kee officially changed the name of the organization to Soo Bahk Do.  After some time, they began court proceedings to keep the other organizations from using the logo and Soo Bahk Do name.  The Soo Bahk Do name is basically a brand name for the direct lineage of Hwang Kee's art.  When Hwang Kee died, his son took over, thereby continuing the lineage, but when Hwang Kee died, they also lost a great many of the older masters.  As with any organization, people continue to come and go.  

But chances are....if you practice a style officially called Tang Soo Do, your lineage goes back to Hwang Kee, from someone who learned from him, but no longer has a link to the Hwang family.


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## DMcHenry (Apr 6, 2010)

Grandmaster Hwang first called his art "Hwa Soo Do", then "Tang Soo Do", and last "Soo Bahk Do".  Some instructors split off from the Moo Duk Kwan and joined the renamed art Tae Kwan Do.

MBuzzy is correct, those that followed the Moo Duk Kwan and seperated from GM Hwang still use the term Tang Soo Do, while those still with the MDK use Soo Bahk Do.


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## dancingalone (Apr 7, 2010)

I think there's a bit more to the story.  People who use the Tang Soo Do name generally stick to the karate-inspired curriculum Hwang Kee originally designed after he gave up on Hwa Soo Do since that is what he taught them or their instructors.  The Soo Bahk Do  curriculum continues to evolve even today under Hwang Kee's son, H.C. Hwang, and depending on the school, SBD people are starting to exhibit noticeably softer technique as a whole.  There's even been some speculation that SBD will drop the Pyung Ahn karate forms entirely at some point.


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## JWLuiza (Apr 7, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I think there's a bit more to the story.  People who use the Tang Soo Do name generally stick to the karate-inspired curriculum Hwang Kee originally designed after he gave up on Hwa Soo Do since that is what he taught them or their instructors.  The Soo Bahk Do  curriculum continues to evolve even today under Hwang Kee's son, H.C. Hwang, and depending on the school, SBD people are starting to exhibit noticeably softer technique as a whole.  There's even been some speculation that SBD will drop the Pyung Ahn karate forms entirely at some point.



There are TSD schools that use Chil Sung and Yuk Ro and are closer to SBD movement. Many of the schools that broke off did so before the MDK changed. As more organizations break off, you'll see the proportion of Karate Style vs. MDK style TSD schools change.

I know of at least one SBD studio that has published their requirements and noticed a lack of Pyong Ahn Requirements.


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## dancingalone (Apr 7, 2010)

JWLuiza said:


> There are TSD schools that use Chil Sung and Yuk Ro and are closer to SBD movement. Many of the schools that broke off did so before the MDK changed. As more organizations break off, you'll see the proportion of Karate Style vs. MDK style TSD schools change.



Probably true.  The local Mi Guk Kwan school in my area teaches some Chil Sung forms, and while I would still call them a hard style school, they do make some efforts to blend in some of the Chil Sung ideas into their basics.  On the other hand, I practiced briefly in a CS Kim school way back in the eighties, and they were very, very hard in execution of everything. 



> I know of at least one SBD studio that has published their requirements and noticed a lack of Pyong Ahn Requirements.



So it has happened already.  As a TSDist, do you believe Hwang Kee ever truly liked the Pyung Ahns?


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## MBuzzy (Apr 7, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Probably true.  The local Mi Guk Kwan school in my area teaches some Chil Sung forms, and while I would still call them a hard style school, they do make some efforts to blend in some of the Chil Sung ideas into their basics.  On the other hand, I practiced briefly in a CS Kim school way back in the eighties, and they were very, very hard in execution of everything.



While it is generally true that TSD school are harder, I think that it is more a function of when they separtated.  The SBD Federation has been evolving and changing over time, adding in that Chinese influence - partly to bring out Hwang Kee's chinese martial arts roots.  So if a TSD org separated early, it would be harder....if they separated later, it will be softer.  Then add in the separated master's opinions on the direction that HC Hwang went with the org and you get the vast mix of styles within TSD now.



dancingalone said:


> So it has happened already.  As a TSDist, do you believe Hwang Kee ever truly liked the Pyung Ahns?



Personally, I think that the push to get away from the Pyang Ahn forms is more of an HW Hwang thing than a Hwang Kee thing.  Now, Hwang Kee did admit that he learned the Pyang Ahns from a book.  But they were a cornerstone of his art for many years.  The Chil Sungs and Yuk Ros are a relatively new addition.  In my old Dojang, we would go months without touching the pyang ahns, but they continue to be requirements.  The entire time that I've had contact with the style, there has been talk of removing them, but it never materializes.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Apr 14, 2010)

This is a topic that has so many directions that it can go in...

Recently our friend John Kedrowski (upnorthkyusa) published a book on this subject. The title of the book is; The Lost Art of Tang Soo Do

John spent several years researching the true history of Tang Soo Do, and several other arts/systems that are closely related to TSD prior to authoring this book. I received a copy from him a couple of weeks ago and enjoyed reading it. The material is well organized and answers all of the questions asked here and on other discussion boards.

I strongly suggest that everyone purchase a copy, read it and then start a thread to discuss his findings. 

Purchase "The Lost Art of Tang Soo Do" via this link...

http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=4328395

All the best,

Sensei Jay S. Penfil


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## kbarrett (Nov 26, 2011)

Actually GM Won Kuk Lee was the first to use the name "Tang Soo Do" back in 1944, he had gotten permission from the Japanese at that time to open a dojang teach Chung do Kwan Tang Soo Do, GM Hwang Kee trained with GM Won Kuk Lee and reopened his dojang in 1947 renaming it the Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. As for the Hyungs well I think they where going to change over time, I know the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan teachs the whole Hyung series.

Ken


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