# Chris Dorner No Excuses



## Tgace (Feb 15, 2013)

http://lawenforcementtoday.com/2013/02/14/chris-dorner-no-excuses/



> Since Chris Dorner posted his manifesto of grievances and murdered four people in his quest to clear his name, some in the public, including the media have given him an undeserved folk hero status.  The thought process seems to be that since the LAPD has a history of racism, the actions he took to make the department pay are justified, including the murders of people with no ability to influence or control anything that happened to Dorner.  It is a very disturbing look into the mindset and lack of moral cohesion among this group of people.





> Chris Dorner had a long list of people he wanted to wreak vengeance upon, did any of those people end up on the list of those he murdered?  The question that needs to be asked of those who consider Dorner a folk hero is what did Monica Quan, a young, up and coming basketball coach and Keith Lawrence, an African American, Quans fiancé, another basketball aficionado and law enforcement hopeful have to do with how Chris Dorner was treated. They both had bright, hopeful futures ahead that Dorner unjustly stole from them.  The quote from Dorners manifesto stating that because he never had an opportunity to have a family of my own, Im terminating yours, speaks volumes about him displaying the same sort of barbaric mentality hes supposedly fighting against.
> 
> Lets look at Dorners third victim, Michael Crain.  He was a Riverside police officer with a trainee in the squad car with him when Dorner pulled up alongside their vehicle in Riverside, shooting into their vehicle.  Neither Officer Crain nor his trainee who was seriously wounded had any control over what happened to Dorner, nor had they had any previous contact with him.  Officer Crain was a Marine whod served two tours in Kuwait, had a family he loved, including a daughter he attended dance recitals with and a son, whose baseball team he coached. To those who think Dorners actions were justified, where is the outrage over the injustice for these people who did nothing wrong and had never harmed Dorner?



Amen...


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## seasoned (Feb 15, 2013)

http://lawenforcementtoday.com/2013/02/14/chris-dorner-no-excuses/



> Since Chris Dorner posted his manifesto of grievances and murdered four people in his quest to clear his name, some in the public, including the media have given him an undeserved folk hero status.  The thought process seems to be that since the LAPD has a history of racism, the actions he took to make the department pay are justified, including the murders of people with no ability to influence or control anything that happened to Dorner.  It is a very disturbing look into the mindset and lack of moral cohesion among this group of people.



This guy is a disgrace, dirt bag is more to the point.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 15, 2013)

Dorner went out like a gangster rap song. I wonder if that explains why some people have elevated him to folk hero status? He's certainly no hero in my book...


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## James Kovacich (Feb 15, 2013)

I don't know what's going on in LA but the San Francisco Bay Area media did not elevate him to folk hero status. 

To us here he was just another gun-nut.

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## Makalakumu (Feb 15, 2013)

James Kovacich said:


> I don't know what's going on in LA but the San Francisco Bay Area media did not elevate him to folk hero status.
> 
> To us here he was just another gun-nut.
> 
> Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2



This is what's going on in the LA area...






Of course the reality of this song is completely insane, but LA is a city of fantasy.  The major industry there peddles it like crack.


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## arnisador (Feb 16, 2013)

Folk hero? Seriously? Sheesh.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 16, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> This is what's going on in the LA area...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know down there, the people on the street say the LA cops are the worlds biggest gang. Jumping on this would be natural for them.

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## celtic_crippler (Feb 16, 2013)

Just when I think there's absolutely nothing anyone could do stupid enough to shock me any more... somebody makes a folk hero out of this guy.


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## billc (Feb 16, 2013)

The media and academics seem to think this guy was a flawed messenger instead of a nut job killer...


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## billc (Feb 16, 2013)

Here is a look at how the democrat media and academics put this guy as a tarished angel...instead of mass murdering monster...

http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/02/christopher-dorner-lapds-ghosts-and-left-wing-populism/



> Beck insisted that the new inquiry wasn&#8217;t intended to appease the man being sought for multiple murders, but was instead initiated to address what he called &#8220;the ghosts of the LAPD&#8217;s past.&#8221;
> 
> It was a foolish thing to do.  Out came the crazies who&#8217;d just been granted legitimacy by Beck&#8217;s so-called reinvestigation. Their outpouring of sympathy was accurately described by Ta-Nehisi Coates, in The Atlantic, as:
> 
> ...



You see, when the guy is a murdering lefty...they get more leeway in their killing of innocent people...for those who scoff at this...imagine if the guy had put Rush, Hannity or Fox news in his "manifesto," in a flattering light and spoke about the 2nd amendment in a flattering way...and if you don't think the coverage of this killer would be different...you need to reevaluate how you look at things...


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## Tames D (Feb 16, 2013)

Hero Status? More like  COWARD. Let's see, he killed unsuspecting people that had no way to defend themselves. Then when the **** hits the fan, he kills himself. Hero, yeah right...


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## James Kovacich (Feb 16, 2013)

billc said:


> Here is a look at how the democrat media and academics put this guy as a tarished angel...instead of mass murdering monster...
> 
> http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/02/christopher-dorner-lapds-ghosts-and-left-wing-populism/
> 
> ...



They may be Democrats but they do not speak for the Democratic party. If I wanted to slam the Republicans I wouldn't be quoting that a$$bite Rush Limbaugh because he isn't a politician. He's a media voice. 

Besides he does your party more harm than good! 

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## James Kovacich (Feb 16, 2013)

LA police Dept may very well be the most corrupt police force in the nation, even exceeding New York. With that said, the peoples grievances against LAPD have "some" merit. I say some because "some" people go overboard and try to make everything an issue.

Kinda like the way BillC relates everything he see's as bad as the Democrats fault. 

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## billc (Feb 16, 2013)

I only blame the democrats for the things they actually do...

besides...when you look at all the people either openly supporting this guy or saying he went about it the wrong way...but, he's still a hero...they aren't Romney supporters or republicans...are they...which political party do you think they vote for?


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## James Kovacich (Feb 16, 2013)

What makes you think they vote?

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## Tgace (Feb 16, 2013)

> _One contributor said that Dorners escapades reminded him of watching __Django Unchained in real life. _



My Lord.....


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## billc (Feb 16, 2013)

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnn-pane...ng-django-exact-revenge-for-police-brutality/



> &#8220;There&#8217;s no waste here, though,&#8221; *Marc Lamont Hill*, host of HuffPost Live and associate professor with Columbia University, interjected. &#8220;This has been an important conversation that we&#8217;ve had about police brutality, about police corruption, about state violence.&#8221;
> &#8220;As far as Dorner himself goes, he&#8217;s been like a real life superhero to many people,&#8221; Hill added. &#8220;What he did was awful, killing innocent people was bad, but when you read his manifesto, when you read the message that he left, he wasn&#8217;t entirely crazy.&#8221;
> Hill said that the people who were rooting for Dorner were rooting for him to extract vengeance against a system that wronged him. &#8220;It&#8217;s almost like watching _Django Unchained_ in real life,&#8221; Hill said. &#8220;It&#8217;s kind of exciting.&#8221;





> *Marc Lamont Hill* (born December 17, 1978) is an American academic, commentator, journalist, author, activist, and television personality. He currently serves as an Associate Professor at Teachers College, Columbia University. Hill is also an affiliated faculty member in African American Studies at the Institute for Research in African American Studies at Columbia University. He is currently the host of the nationally syndicated television show Our World with Black Enterprise.



Do you think this guy voted for Romney?

This kind of stupidity from a Professor at Columbia University...


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## James Kovacich (Feb 17, 2013)

billc said:


> I only blame the democrats for the things they actually do...
> 
> besides...when you look at all the people either openly supporting this guy or saying he went about it the wrong way...but, he's still a hero...they aren't Romney supporters or republicans...are they...which political party do you think they vote for?



This sounds like your saying that if they are not voting Republican then they are voting Democratic. That is flawed. 

Some people vote 3rd party and some eligible voters just don't vote. Besides the fact, in your post your guessing which way they vote which you have no way of proving. Totally flawed logic based on your Republican vs Democrat state of mind.

This is what I was leading to about their voting status. The number of people who are eligible but don't vote is higher than people realize.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_eligible_Americans_vote#page2 

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## crushing (Feb 17, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Dorner went out like a gangster rap song. I wonder if that explains why some people have elevated him to folk hero status? He's certainly no hero in my book...



Are the vigilantes that took Dorner out heroes?


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## Tgace (Feb 17, 2013)

crushing said:


> Are the vigilantes that took Dorner out heroes?



Id like to know how LE supposedly set fire to that cabin other than by gas rounds possibly starting it. Its not like they ran up with Molotov cocktails and threw them in....or walked up with Zippos. 

I think that most likely a cop or two said "let it burn" aloud after the gas rounds started a fire (a risk that goes with the tool). But after killing one officer moments before, wounding another and them getting shot at I don't know if I'm ready to damn them based on saying that.

If evidence comes up showing that the cabin was intentionally set on fire with the express intent to kill Dorner I may change my mind. All I see now is some people making the same wild *** accusations against LE that Dorner made.

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## Tgace (Feb 17, 2013)

http://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6122318-Police-families-cope-with-Dorners-aftermath/

Good write up by the AP.

This guy was no "whistle blower"...he was a **** up.


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## Tgace (Feb 17, 2013)

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/14/local/la-me-dorner-fire-20130215



> Samuel Walker, emeritus professor of criminal justice at the University of Nebraska Omaha, was critical of the decision to use the "burner" tear gas canisters.
> 
> "It's true, he was firing at them. But he was cornered. He was trapped. At that point, there was no rush in the sense that he was barricaded. The standard rules on barricade situations are that you can wait the person out," Walker said. "To use a known incendiary device raises some very serious questions in my mind."
> 
> ...





> "What difference does it make if one of the officers puts a &#8230; round in his head, drives the armored vehicle over his body when they are knocking the building down, or he dies in a conflagration?" said David Klinger, a use-of-force expert at the University of Missouri at St. Louis and a former LAPD officer. "If he is trying to surrender you can't do any of those things &#8230; But if he is actively trying to murder people, there's no doubt that deadly force is appropriate and it doesn't matter what method is used to deliver it."
> 
> Geoffery Alpert, a professor at the University of South Carolina who also specializes in police tactics, agreed.
> 
> "I don't understand what the big deal is," Alpert said. "This man had already shot two officers and was suspected of murdering other people. He wasn't responding in a rational manner. The actions you take have to remove the threat and if it requires extreme measures, then so be it."


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## Makalakumu (Feb 17, 2013)

crushing said:


> Are the vigilantes that took Dorner out heroes?



Dorner railed against crooked cops who abused their power and hurt innocent people in his manifesto...and then he did exactly the same thing.  In the end, he was killed extra-judicially, with no due process, exactly the way he killed his victims.  Shall I steal a quote from Ron Paul? 

"Those who live by the sword, die by the sword."


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## ballen0351 (Feb 18, 2013)

Makalaku said:


> Dorner railed against crooked cops who abused their power and hurt innocent people in his manifesto...and then he did exactly the same thing.  In the end, he was killed extra-judicially, with no due process, exactly the way he killed his victims.  Shall I steal a quote from Ron Paul?
> 
> "Those who live by the sword, die by the sword."



He wasn't fighting against crooked cops he was one.  He lied under oath and got fired.  Same thing just happened at my department 2 weeks ago.  2 cops got caught in a lie and requested a trial board got found guilty and are being fired.  I for one am glad off it.  They were crappy cops to begin with they should have been fired years ago but its hard to get rid of cops. 
Dorner was a liar a coward and a murderer.  Good riddance


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## crushing (Feb 18, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Dorner railed against crooked cops who abused their power and hurt innocent people in his manifesto...and then he did exactly the same thing.  In the end, he was killed extra-judicially, with no due process, exactly the way he killed his victims.  Shall I steal a quote from Ron Paul?
> 
> "Those who live by the sword, die by the sword."



Another quote is about an "eye for an eye."  This culture of retribution may be one of the reasons people are so accepting of violence.  It would probably be more worthwhile to look in to what moves people to such violent behavior than to restrict a certain subset of instruments or objects that may be used by (or against) violent people.


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## Tgace (Feb 18, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Dorner railed against crooked cops who abused their power and hurt innocent people in his manifesto...and then he did exactly the same thing.  In the end, he was killed extra-judicially, with no due process, exactly the way he killed his victims.  Shall I steal a quote from Ron Paul?
> 
> "Those who live by the sword, die by the sword."



When you are shooting at cops and they kill you how is that a due process violation?


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## MJS (Feb 18, 2013)

Tgace said:


> http://lawenforcementtoday.com/2013/02/14/chris-dorner-no-excuses/
> 
> 
> 
> ...



People think he did this to show that the LAPD is corrupt.  Corrupt or not, it was Dorner who accused his partner of doing something, that I dont believe he did, and was in fact made up.  I agree with Seaoned...this guy was a dirtbag.


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## MJS (Feb 18, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Dorner railed against crooked cops who abused their power and hurt innocent people in his manifesto...and then he did exactly the same thing. In the end, he was killed extra-judicially, with no due process, exactly the way he killed his victims. Shall I steal a quote from Ron Paul?
> 
> "Those who live by the sword, die by the sword."



IMO, if he was trying to fix corruption in the LAPD, then his methods of doing are, well...frankly, they're pretty ****ed up!  Just like he was!



crushing said:


> Are the vigilantes that took Dorner out heroes?



You think the cops were vigilantes?


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## crushing (Feb 18, 2013)

MJS said:


> You think the cops were vigilantes?



Only if they had the option to bring him to justice without putting themselves in danger.  Nobody will miss a ****ed up dirtbag, so will anyone really care about due process in this case?


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## Makalakumu (Feb 18, 2013)

Tgace said:


> When you are shooting at cops and they kill you how is that a due process violation?



I don't think Dorner was going to make it out of that cabin alive, no matter what happened.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 18, 2013)

MJS said:


> IMO, if he was trying to fix corruption in the LAPD, then his methods of doing are, well...frankly, they're pretty ****ed up!  Just like he was!



That's all I was saying above.  If Dorner was really concerned about corruption, there were lots of better ways to handle this.  In the end, he became just as bad as what he accused the LAPD of doing.  

That said, I would be very wary of excusing the LAPD of corruption.  I think the only reason he has attained any notoriety is the fact that the fact that the LAPD IS so openly corrupt and everyone knows it.  Dorner's manifesto struck a nerve with that community...


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## Tgace (Feb 18, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> I don't think Dorner was going to make it out of that cabin alive, no matter what happened.



Your "think" and a nickel will get you.....

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## Makalakumu (Feb 18, 2013)

Tgace said:


> Your "think" and a nickel will get you.....
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2



Sorry, tgace, I'm a little dense this afternoon.

Let's put it this way, what is the difference between what happened to Dorner and the President assassinating American citizens he believes are a threat?  Both reach into a gray area of the law where I think self defense can be argued.  For civil libertarians, I can see how this precedent is troubling.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 18, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Sorry, tgace, I'm a little dense this afternoon.
> 
> Let's put it this way, what is the difference between what happened to Dorner and the President assassinating American citizens he believes are a threat?  Both reach into a gray area of the law where I think self defense can be argued.  For civil libertarians, I can see how this precedent is troubling.



Nobody killed Dorner he killed himself. Had he walked out hands up he would still be alive.


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## Tgace (Feb 18, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Nobody killed Dorner he killed himself. Had he walked out hands up he would still be alive.




I think some people have seen too many cop TV shows and movies.

When you have multiple agencies involved in a large event like this you actually have less of a chance of covering things up.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 18, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Nobody killed Dorner he killed himself. Had he walked out hands up he would still be alive.



I'm not so sure.  I think Dorner was going to become a bullet sponge no matter what.  Also, when they fired the building, no one knew if he was dead or alive.  On the leaked police scanner audio, it certainly sounded like the cops thought he was alive.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 18, 2013)

Tgace said:


> I think some people have seen too many cop TV shows and movies.
> 
> When you have multiple agencies involved in a large event like this you actually have less of a chance of covering things up.



Maybe this might have been true a few decades ago, but things have change...

http://www.infowars.com/did-police-order-media-blackout-to-cover-up-plan-to-kill-dorner/



> Audio which indicates police involved in the siege against Christopher Dorner deliberately planned to set fire to the fugitive&#8217;s cabin was preceded by an attempt by authorities to impose a media blackout in an apparent effort to cover up the chain of events that led to Dorner&#8217;s death.​​​
> 
> 
> ​​As the standoff reached its height, Big Bear-area police scanners were disabled online in order to &#8220;ensure officer safety.&#8221; However, the feeds were not cut until after police were clearly heard discussing plans to &#8220;go ahead with the plan with the burners,&#8221; while on another audio feed from a local news broadcast, cops were heard shouting, &#8220;*burn this motherf***er*.&#8221;​​​



They were going to kill him no matter what.



> At around the same time, CNN&#8217;s Wolf Blitzer announced that police had asked news networks not to film live footage of the scene.Earlier in the day, the the LAPD issued a request to media outlets to &#8220;please stop tweeting&#8221; about unfolding events.​​​This was followed by a tweet, subsequently deleted, from the San Bernardino District Attorney which stated, &#8220;The sheriff has asked all members of the press to stop tweeting immediately. It is hindering officer safety.&#8221;​




The cops clearly were pressuring the press.  




> Reports that Dorner was &#8221; pushed back inside&#8221; the cabin when he attempted to leave also point to this conclusion. Why not just shoot him if he failed to surrender? Why push him back inside the building and prolong the standoff?



It looks to me like they were just going to kill the guy.  Some people will probably have no problem with this and I honestly understand their point of view.  Dorner was a rabid dog who murdered innocent people and was clearly dangerous.  That said, could this be just another example of the precedent that allows the government to kill it's citizens with no due process?  What's the difference between the government killing Dorner with no due process and the government killing Anwar Al Alaki?  A big difference for me is that Dorner was clearly a physical threat.  Al Alaki's speech was the threat that the government killed him for.  In the end, I'm not going to lose that much sleep over it.  It's just troubling...​​​


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## Tgace (Feb 18, 2013)

Without knowing what the tactical situation was all you have is an infowars article and a predisposition to believe anything to do with conspiracy. 

When you have a killer (very recently reproven) barricaded, shooting at you...you are there to solve the tactical problem. They called for him to surrender. He refused. They "cold gassed" him...nothing. They breached the structure and received fire. They hot gassed the structure ("burners"...they burn the agent for higher volume dispersion) and apparently Dorner decided to plug himself vs surrender. 

Any assumption that they were going to kill Dorner vs let him surrender is evidence of people making unsubstantiated assumptions based on what they watched on "The Shield" or some other media based education.

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## Tgace (Feb 18, 2013)

Your assumption that "pushed back inside" means he was refused surrender only supports my point. 

If I'm on a perimiter and the BG is trying to escape out the back I'm sure as hell gonna "push him back inside" vs let him escape. Escape is not surrender.

Seeing "pushed back" as meaning an intent to kill is like an ink blot test. You see one thing..i see another. Thing is...i have actually been on SWAT operations. 

Doesn't mean im correct...i wasn't there. But im not jumping to conclusions.

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## Carol (Feb 18, 2013)

The story that he was push back inside was not reported at the incident command post and came after the events were over...well after the ICP reported the sound of the single gunshot coming from inside the cabin.

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## Tames D (Feb 18, 2013)

I'm just totally amazed that there is support for this coward/murderer. There is no justification for what he did.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 18, 2013)

Big difference between being pushed back inside and dormer exits back door is ordered to the ground with his hand out and he runs back inside to avoid capture.


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## crushing (Feb 18, 2013)

Tames D said:


> I'm just totally amazed that there is support for this coward/murderer. There is no justification for what he did.



I haven't seen any support for him or justification for what he did.  I have seen support for due process and the rule of law, as well as a disregard for the same.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 18, 2013)

crushing said:


> I haven't seen any support for him or justification for what he did.  I have seen support for due process and the rule of law, as well as a disregard for the same.



Plenty of fools were running around calling him a hero


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## Tames D (Feb 18, 2013)

crushing said:


> I haven't seen any support for him or justification for what he did.  I have seen support for due process and the rule of law, as well as a disregard for the same.



Are we reading the same reports? They are calling this clown a ****ing hero.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 18, 2013)

Tgace said:


> Doesn't mean im correct...i wasn't there. But im not jumping to conclusions.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2



I'm not going to lose much sleep over this. Even if the LAPD decided to simply kill this guy, I can't say I'm totally against that. On the other hand, I can see the case of the civil libertarians. It's a troubling precedent in the times where we have the NDAA. 

Tgace, lastly, the LAPD is a corrupt police force. There are lots of cities where the cops are little more than thugs. Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans, New York, from my experience cops in these cities have a completely different attitude. I've gotten screamed at for asking directions. 

The corruption exists and it's really bad with the LAPD. I can understand why this story struck a cord with the community.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 18, 2013)

Tgace said:


> Without knowing what the tactical situation was all you have is an infowars article and a predisposition to believe anything to do with conspiracy.
> 
> When you have a killer (very recently reproven) barricaded, shooting at you...you are there to solve the tactical problem. They called for him to surrender. He refused. They "cold gassed" him...nothing. They breached the structure and received fire. They hot gassed the structure ("burners"...they burn the agent for higher volume dispersion) and apparently Dorner decided to plug himself vs surrender.
> 
> ...



The quotes are directly from police transmissions. "Let's burn this MFer!" 

It's clear that they were just going to kill the guy.


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## Tames D (Feb 19, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> The quotes are directly from police transmissions. "Let's burn this MFer!"
> 
> It's clear that they were just going to kill the guy.



Like he did to his victims? Not sure what your problem is with this. How do you think Monica Quans parents feel right now? How would you feel if someone murdered your daughter?


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## Makalakumu (Feb 19, 2013)

Tames D said:


> Like he did to his victims? Not sure what your problem is with this. How do you think Monica Quans parents feel right now? How would you feel if someone murdered your daughter?



I'd want to burn that mother****er.  To tell the truth, on an emotional level, I don't have a problem with it.  I think the end result is exactly what Dorner deserved.  As a citizen, I am disturbed by several things.

I have a problem with the police putting pressure on the media to STFU and white wash everything.  The government does that too much already and we would be much better served by just being open to the public.  I understand why an agency like the LAPD would need to white wash it's image.  This is not a group of white hats.

http://www.alternet.org/why-lapds-hunt-dorner-indefensible



> Bradley told me in 1981 that he asked Police Chief Ed Davis to explain why 300 officers were assigned to rooftop and perimeter patrols at police divisions (called precinct houses in most cities). Davis said police needed protection from armed criminals, citing an infamous incident in the mostly black South Central area where several people stood up at a meeting and urged killing officers.
> Years later it came out that those urging attacks on police were all undercover officers, part of a massive worldwide LAPD spying operation in which some officers posed as leading communists and radicals for two decades, including officers in Havana and Moscow. (Doubters are invited to read &#8220;Chief: My Life in the LAPD,&#8221; by the late Daryl F. Gates, especially pages 72 and 231, as well as  my articles about LAPD spying, brutality and mismanagement in the Los Angeles Times in 1980 until early 1983.)



I also have a problem with the State killing people.  I think we need to reserve our highest levels of skepticism for these situations and *never *take them at their word.  We can't have the kind of government the Founding Fathers wanted if people simply kowtow and bootlick every person dressed in a uniform.  We especially cannot relax our vigilance in the land where the NDAA is law, in the land where an American citizen was openly murdered for his speech, in the land that operates torture dungeons and extra judicial prisons.  Our Constitutional protections are toast.  We can't afford to simply take the State's word for anything, IMO.

In the end, Dorner is a bad guy AND the institution is broken.  Those who live by the sword die by the sword.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 19, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> The quotes are directly from police transmissions. "Let's burn this MFer!"
> 
> It's clear that they were just going to kill the guy.


Even if that were true which I don't believe it is.  I thought that was a recording of a cop yelling that.  But if it was on the radio it wasn't said by anyone actually involved in the tactical planning of the incident.  The swat guys all have an encripted radio so they can communicate without others hearing the transmission.  That was done idiot street cop that was standing on the outskirts making sure the press stay behind the line.  Most other cops can't even listen to the channel that tactical guys are using.  
Secondly I believe it wasn't even LAPD that did this operation it was the sheriff department.
3rd having been on a SWAT  team for many years I can tell you that they are not that emotional.  You have to go into almost robot mode and do your job.  You let emotions creep in and that's how you or your team get hurt.  These guys had an objective to complete and had he came out with his hands up yelling I give up he wouldn't have been killed.  A professional SWAT team is not a bunch of trigger happy hillbillies looking to settle the score.
Lastly After the house caught on fore Dorner shot himself instead of just walking out and giving up.  That's a HUGE difference then dropping a bomb on a citizen who didn't even get the opportunity to surrender.  Corner had many chances to end this peacefully he choose is fate.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 19, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> I'd want to burn that mother****er.  To tell the truth, on an emotional level, I don't have a problem with it.  I think the end result is exactly what Dorner deserved.  As a citizen, I am disturbed by several things.
> 
> I have a problem with the police putting pressure on the media to STFU and white wash everything.  The government does that too much already and we would be much better served by just being open to the public.  I understand why an agency like the LAPD would need to white wash it's image.  This is not a group of white hats.
> 
> ...


The media wasn't told to hush.  They were told to stop tweeting real time what they were seeing. Tweeting stuff like wow 2 snipers are set up on the left side of the house puts people in danger.  You don't know if dorner is inside reading all that. If he is He now knows everyone's movements and being a former cop he can plan whats going to happen next with that info.
Even of they were asking the press to white wash stuff doesn't mean they had to listen.  And the fact the press was even there is more evidence had he just given up they wouldn't have killed him.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 19, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> I'm not going to lose much sleep over this. Even if the LAPD decided to simply kill this guy, I can't say I'm totally against that. On the other hand, I can see the case of the civil libertarians. It's a troubling precedent in the times where we have the NDAA.
> 
> Tgace, lastly, the LAPD is a corrupt police force. There are lots of cities where the cops are little more than thugs. Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans, New York, from my experience cops in these cities have a completely different attitude. I've gotten screamed at for asking directions.
> 
> The corruption exists and it's really bad with the LAPD. I can understand why this story struck a cord with the community.



Being rude about asking directions does not make a department corrupt.  I've yelled at people for asking directions to.  If I'm in the middle of something important like a traffic stop or some other type of call and you pull up stop in middle of road and start blocking traffic to ask me a stupid question I'll yell at you too.


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## crushing (Feb 19, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Plenty of *fools* were running around calling him a hero





Tames D said:


> Are we reading the same reports? *They* are calling this clown a ****ing hero.



Who are "they"?   If I google the words *dorner* and *hero*, I find plenty of articles that say Dorner is not a hero, but I can't find specific people that these articles are arguing against.  It's always the mysterious _they_.  About as specific as the authors get is _liberals_.  That makes sense in this political climate.  I guess I see what the authors are trying to do.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 19, 2013)

crushing said:


> Who are "they"?   If I google the words *dorner* and *hero*, I find plenty of articles that say Dorner is not a hero, but I can't find specific people that these articles are arguing against.  It's always the mysterious _they_.  About as specific as the authors get is _liberals_.  That makes sense in this political climate.  I guess I see what the authors are trying to do.


People are the they.  There are several pro dorner Facebook pages one had over 20k likes.  Reading comments on dorner stories plenty of people were calking him a hero.  There were plenty of dorner hero hash tags on twitter.  Has nothing g to find with liberal or politics for me just a bunch of stupid people


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## crushing (Feb 19, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> People are the they.  There are several pro dorner Facebook pages one had over 20k likes.  Reading comments on dorner stories plenty of people were calking him a hero.  There were plenty of dorner hero hash tags on twitter.  Has nothing g to find with liberal or politics for me just a bunch of stupid people



Ah, anonymous interwebz trolls trying to get a rise out of others in comments sections and on Facebook.  I've read a lot of crazy comments on various stories.  Every once in a while there is a gem of humor or a good point made in the comments section, but it's not worth it to sort through the snark and nastiness anymore.


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## Drasken (Feb 19, 2013)

The sad fact is that people are generally stupid. Unfortunately a lot of people are getting behind this psycho as and making him out to be some martyr. Is there corruption in the LAPD? I'm sure there is. There's corruption everywhere. But we can't judge all the cops based on the actions of a few. Just like I'm sure most of the people supporting this nut happen to be left wing, but it can't and shouldn't be placed on all liberals as a whole.
I personally know many Socialists in my area that heard that he was killed and their reply was "Good, he was a rabid dog that needed to be brought in or put down before more people got hurt or worse."

I have also heard that cops in the LAPD opened fire on a vehicle fitting the description of Dorner's vehicle. If this is true, it was wrong as well, and likely a reaction of fear against an armed psycho that was targeting law enforcement. This doesn't mean all cops in the LAPD are bad or would have reacted that way.
My grandfather was a police officer, and I know if he ever had evidence of corruption and felt the need to do something he would have taken the evidence through proper legal channels, not grab a gun and go on a rampage.
The police followed proper proceedure and it ended badly. It happens.

Also this martyring a psycho is sad but not unique. There are fan clubs, some larger than others, devoted to serial killers and other mentally unstable individuals of all shapes and sizes.
As for the news, sadly it's all about ratings it seems. "Spin the story how they want to hear it and they will watch" seems to be the new mantra. 
It's sad and a little disgusting. That's why I watch the news from left and right wing sources and estimate the truth is probably in the gray area in the middle.

Just my opinion.


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## Tgace (Feb 19, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> I'm not going to lose much sleep over this. Even if the LAPD decided to simply kill this guy, I can't say I'm totally against that. On the other hand, I can see the case of the civil libertarians. It's a troubling precedent in the times where we have the NDAA.
> 
> Tgace, lastly, the LAPD is a corrupt police force. There are lots of cities where the cops are little more than thugs. Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans, New York, from my experience cops in these cities have a completely different attitude. I've gotten screamed at for asking directions.
> 
> The corruption exists and it's really bad with the LAPD. I can understand why this story struck a cord with the community.



LAPD didn't kill him. The cabin wasn't in LA.

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## MJS (Feb 19, 2013)

crushing said:


> Only if they had the option to bring him to justice without putting themselves in danger.  Nobody will miss a ****ed up dirtbag, so will anyone really care about due process in this case?



IMO, Dorner most likely would not have just tossed up his hands and surrendered, therefore, his way was suicide.  He was either going to get into a firefight and force them to kill him, or take the route that he did...blow his head off.


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## MJS (Feb 19, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> That's all I was saying above.  If Dorner was really concerned about corruption, there were lots of better ways to handle this.  In the end, he became just as bad as what he accused the LAPD of doing.



I agree.



> That said, I would be very wary of excusing the LAPD of corruption.  I think the only reason he has attained any notoriety is the fact that the fact that the LAPD IS so openly corrupt and everyone knows it.  Dorner's manifesto struck a nerve with that community...



Oh, I'm not saying they're all alterboys, and I think corruption can be seen in alot of PDs.  Personally, I'd be interested in seeing Dorners track record with the LAPD.  Was this guy squeeky clean or did he have some skeletons in his closet?


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## Tgace (Feb 19, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> The media wasn't told to hush.  They were told to stop tweeting real time what they were seeing. Tweeting stuff like wow 2 snipers are set up on the left side of the house puts people in danger.  You don't know if dorner is inside reading all that. If he is He now knows everyone's movements and being a former cop he can plan whats going to happen next with that info.
> Even of they were asking the press to white wash stuff doesn't mean they had to listen.  And the fact the press was even there is more evidence had he just given up they wouldn't have killed him.



Exactly. Cutting off media in SWAT operations is only good common sense. Why would you want the BG to have the opportunity to see what you are doing?

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## MJS (Feb 19, 2013)

Tgace said:


> Exactly. Cutting off media in SWAT operations is only good common sense. Why would you want the BG to have the opportunity to see what you are doing?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2



I believe the media helicopters were also told to move away.  I mean, they're broadcasting live footage.  Having access to a radio, tv, computer, etc, could've easily given Dorner all the info he would've needed, to know what the cops were doing, etc.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 19, 2013)

Here is a journalist who was listening in while Dorner was burned out.  I think you all make great points, but here is a different perspective...

http://scotthorton.org/2013/02/16/21513-max-blumenthal/


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## Tgace (Feb 19, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Here is a journalist who was listening in while Dorner was burned out.  I think you all make great points, but here is a different perspective...
> 
> http://scotthorton.org/2013/02/16/21513-max-blumenthal/



Another ignorant journalist who thinks that "burners" mean something other than CS canisters that burn their payload vs spraying liquid? 

Pass...what's his expertise on SWAT/LE tactics, gear and operations that should impress me that he knows anything about the topic he's discussing?

I run a SWAT team...we don't have anything we could intentionally burn down a house with, and I don't know of any other teams in my area who do. CS "burners" have that possibility but the tactical situation weighed against the risk needs consideration. And even when they do start fires its not like a Molotov going off....the person has an opportunity to leave the building and surrender.

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## ballen0351 (Feb 19, 2013)

Burner is basically slang for a gas dispersal unit that gets hot. We use hot or cold gas as our terms.  Every dept uses different terms.

There are only two things I can think of that will start a fire.  Flash bangs and hot gas.  Both are rare to start a fire but of happens


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## Tgace (Feb 19, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Burner is basically slang for a gas dispersal unit that gets hot. We use hot or cold gas as our terms.  Every dept uses different terms.
> 
> There are only two things I can think of that will start a fire.  Flash bangs and hot gas.  Both are rare to start a fire but of happens



Although its a good example of how terminology can hurt you. We changed our entry cadence from "execute" to "initiate" because some knucklehead reporters may hear and claim we were going in to "execute" someone. Sigh......

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## MJS (Feb 19, 2013)

Tgace said:


> Another ignorant journalist who thinks that "burners" mean something other than CS canisters that burn their payload vs spraying liquid?
> 
> Pass...what's his expertise on SWAT/LE tactics, gear and operations that should impress me that he knows anything about the topic he's discussing?
> 
> ...



Sigh...doesn't it get depressing when the uneducated reporters start talking about **** they know nothing about?


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## ballen0351 (Feb 19, 2013)

Tgace said:


> Although its a good example of how terminology can hurt you. We changed our entry cadence from "execute" to "initiate" because some knucklehead reporters may hear and claim we were going in to "execute" someone. Sigh......
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2


That's why we changed our name we stopped using SWAT because of the negative image the term SWAT has in public.  Now we are the Emergency Response Unit


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## Carol (Feb 20, 2013)

The LE folks here can correct me if I'm wrong...even in a standoff situation, there are escalating levels of force.  There are also several factors that go in to the use of force, including the likelyhood of hostages, and the likelyhood of a person giving themselves up.  There was a standoff in the overnight hours in a north from a man shooting at police for a seemingly unknown reason.  Unfortunately a 90 year old neighbor lost her life in the initial crossfire.

The shooter had barricaded himself and his gf in the apartment (she was eventually able to exit safely).  Reports were that he was talking to negotiators.  Even in the discussion there were additional factors.  He sounded intoxicated.  There were periods he was vomiting profusely, and the incident command post was relaying that they have doctors available.  There were periods where he stopped talking with the negotiator and it was suggested that he may have been fading in and out of consciousness.  Fortunately the standoff ended peacefully with the man surrendering and no further loss of life.

The Dorner standoff wasn't instantaneous...nor should it have been.   There is a lot of coordination that goes in to such a response, including steps take to ensure public safety, such as evacuating the neighbors and closing the street.  He had the ability and many opportunities to turn himself in, but he chose not to.  Is there a scenario where bringing him out alive could be done without putting more lives in substantial danger?  I can't think of one.


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## Tgace (Feb 28, 2013)

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/national/florida-deputy-shot-and-killed-in-fort-pierce-traffic-stop

Hmmm...officer killed, suspect chased and apprehend. I thought all cop killers were summarily executed. 

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