# why belt test?



## Thisposthuman (Sep 27, 2017)

I have been studying Krav Maga for just over a year and have never done a belt test.  My instructors never push it on me and it hasnt held me back in training but I am the only one of my peers, whom i started with, who isnt going for belts.  I wanted to throw this out there to the krav community of why you all think it is or is not important.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 27, 2017)

I'm not part of the Krav community, but I'll toss in my few cents' worth.

Belts/ranks are only as useful as an instructor makes them. Tests have an inherent value if they are testing for a useful quality (and "useful" is very contextual).

So, in my program, a student doesn't really have a choice of whether to test or not - because those tests are a tool for me to use in teaching them. Nor whether to wear the next rank or not - because those ranks are useful when interacting with students who don't know them (it tells others in the art what techniques they are likely to know, for instance).

But that could have gone another way. I considered not having ranks or testing when I formed my curriculum. If I didn't have ranks and tests, I'd use other tools (probably actually still periodic tests, now that I think about it).

So, to me, it comes down to this: if ranks and tests are something your instructor uses, you should probably participate. They can be (aren't always - it depends upon the instructor, mostly) useful, and when they are used well, not participating in them can become a problem for others.


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## wab25 (Sep 28, 2017)

If you read these forums, and other martial arts forums, you can find countless reasons instructors use belt tests. Most of those reasons are valid. Some you might actually agree with. But it breaks down to this. How your instructor, deals with belts and belt tests, is part of how he teaches his art. He does it in a particular way, for his reasons. If you like what he is teaching, and how he is teaching it, enough to regularly attend class... you should take part in all the training opportunities he provides.

Some instructors test, some don't, there are various numbers of belts and sometimes different requirements, written exams and so forth. These are part of how each instructor teaches his art. Its kind of like saying: I'll do your drills, learn your kicks, learn your blocks... but I won't learn your punches.

I am one of those guys that doesn't really care what funny color my belt is. I only care for the learning new stuff part and the getting better I what I think I know part. I got to the point where I really didn't care about the testing or the funny colors, so much so that I now wear whatever colors my instructors want me to wear. If they want me to take a test, then it is part of how that instructor wants to pass on his art. If I have decided that a particular instructor has what I want, then I take the tests and wear the colors he wants me to, just like I do the stretches, the push ups, the forms, katas, drills, sparring, situational awareness, punches, kicks and other techniques he asks me too. Its all part of the instructors way of transmitting his art to me.


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## Thisposthuman (Sep 28, 2017)

I share your sentiment toward the belts.  We do not have uniforms and no one wears belts during training, so it really doesnt matter.  The instructors know everyone by name and how long they have been there except for the people in their first couple of weeks.  At our school, you start at beginner class but everything beyond that is by invite only.  Essentially the instructor makes a case by case judgement on what you can handle and thats how you move up into more advanced training.  There are classes on MT, boxing, jiu jitsu...if you go through "level 1" classes enough times and the instructor thinks you can defend yourself well enough not to get hurt in a higher level, they will invite you...all that said, I am in for self defense period, i really couldnt care less about rank as long as it doesnt bar me from participation in advanced training. I could see, that if i change schools it could be hars for me to prove on paper my capabilities.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 28, 2017)

Thisposthuman said:


> I share your sentiment toward the belts.  We do not have uniforms and no one wears belts during training, so it really doesnt matter.  The instructors know everyone by name and how long they have been there except for the people in their first couple of weeks.  At our school, you start at beginner class but everything beyond that is by invite only.  Essentially the instructor makes a case by case judgement on what you can handle and thats how you move up into more advanced training.  There are classes on MT, boxing, jiu jitsu...if you go through "level 1" classes enough times and the instructor thinks you can defend yourself well enough not to get hurt in a higher level, they will invite you...all that said, I am in for self defense period, i really couldnt care less about rank as long as it doesnt bar me from participation in advanced training. I could see, that if i change schools it could be hars for me to prove on paper my capabilities.


Just a note - the way they are using "levels" is similar to how many places use ranks. They aren't something grandiose, just a way of designating someone is ready for the next "stuff". The belt is a visual way of recognizing these different levels in a mixed group.


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## JR 137 (Sep 28, 2017)

Thisposthuman said:


> I share your sentiment toward the belts.  We do not have uniforms and no one wears belts during training, so it really doesnt matter.  The instructors know everyone by name and how long they have been there except for the people in their first couple of weeks.  At our school, you start at beginner class but everything beyond that is by invite only.  Essentially the instructor makes a case by case judgement on what you can handle and thats how you move up into more advanced training.  There are classes on MT, boxing, jiu jitsu...if you go through "level 1" classes enough times and the instructor thinks you can defend yourself well enough not to get hurt in a higher level, they will invite you...all that said, I am in for self defense period, i really couldnt care less about rank as long as it doesnt bar me from participation in advanced training. I could see, that if i change schools it could be hars for me to prove on paper my capabilities.


Substitute "level 1, 2, 3... for "belt 1, 2,3..." or "white belt, blue belt, yellow belt..." and there's no difference IMO.  It's the nonsense stuff that people attach to them that can make them absurd.


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## drop bear (Sep 28, 2017)

Ok. here is the concept.

Training for specific concepts forces you to focus on areas of your martial arts that you may be avoiding.

So if I am a red hot striker i may not need to be very good at takedown. Which is cool.

But to get good at takedowns I would need to isolate that and just do wrestling. This will make me more well rounded and ultimately a better martial artist.

In the same way a belt test will force you to focus on a syllabus whether it is your go to game or not. And will like these situational exercises force you to become a better martial artist.

So ultimately you use these belts as a progressive learning tool.

In the same way if you Krav. You should also box kickbox or grapple.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 28, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Ok. here is the concept.
> 
> Training for specific concepts forces you to focus on areas of your martial arts that you may be avoiding.
> 
> ...


Well said, DB.


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## drop bear (Sep 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Well said, DB.



You get it enough monkeys on enough typewriters and all that.


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## Finlay (Oct 4, 2017)

It's about the test, not the grade


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## JR 137 (Oct 4, 2017)

Finlay said:


> It's about the test, not the grade


I love the test.  I get pushed hard and am taken out of my comfort zone.  The promotion doesn’t matter much to me nowadays.


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## Runs With Fire (Oct 23, 2017)

A well documented test adds credibility to claims of skill, knowledge and lineage of training.  Not that it makes a difference to most people.  In the instance of a student becoming an instructor and opening a school, it helps you to be accepted by the local martial arts community.  Official documentation makes a more unique resume.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 30, 2017)

Thisposthuman said:


> I have been studying Krav Maga for just over a year and have never done a belt test.  My instructors never push it on me and it hasnt held me back in training but I am the only one of my peers, whom i started with, who isnt going for belts.  I wanted to throw this out there to the krav community of why you all think it is or is not important.


I thought that Krav Maga did not use a ranking system but if you're school does have a ranking system and you don't care about earning rank, not all students do. However, if you don't eventually advance in rank you might never learn the more advanced material.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 30, 2017)

wab25 said:


> I am one of those guys that doesn't really care what funny color my belt is. I only care for the learning new stuff part and the getting better I what I think I know part. I got to the point where I really didn't care about the testing or the funny colors, so much so that I now wear whatever colors my instructors want me to wear. If they want me to take a test, then it is part of how that instructor wants to pass on his art. If I have decided that a particular instructor has what I want, then I take the tests and wear the colors he wants me to, just like I do the stretches, the push ups, the forms, katas, drills, sparring, situational awareness, punches, kicks and other techniques he asks me too. Its all part of the instructors way of transmitting his art to me.


For me, I consider making 1st dan to be a Rite of Passage. I like to call the rank "1st dan" not "black belt" since the physical belt is not the actual rank, its a symbol of the rank. And the black belt is used for higher ranks too such as 2nd dan, 3rd dan, ect. Anyway, as I said I see earning the rank of 1st dan for the first time in the first style that you really get seriously into as a rite of passage. Another words, you could sat I see getting your first black belt as a rite of passage but I like to call it "earning 1st dan" rather than "getting a black belt" since that differentiates between earning the rank and having the physical belt in your possession which anybody can do simply by buying it at a martial arts store, ect. But I don't really care about rank progression beyond 1st dan as at that point I just like to keep training and keep getting better. But after that, Im for the most part with you. I don't really care about belt color or as I said rank progression beyond 1st dan. And if I start learning some new style I don't really care much about belt color, not after already earning the rank of 1st dan in a primary style. Right now I am training in Goju Ryu and in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. In BJJ I've got two stripes on my white belt so I've been promoted twice since starting and in Goju Ryu I've got a yellow belt which is the belt right after white so I've been promoted once in that style. While it's nice to be promoted and while it would be nice to someday get black belts in both those styles, or to put it more accurately, earn 1st dan in both those styles, as of right now I am much more interested in learning the material.


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## JR 137 (Oct 30, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> For me, I consider making 1st dan to be a Rite of Passage. I like to call the rank "1st dan" not "black belt" since the physical belt is not the actual rank, its a symbol of the rank. And the black belt is used for higher ranks too such as 2nd dan, 3rd dan, ect. Anyway, as I said I see earning the rank of 1st dan for the first time in the first style that you really get seriously into as a rite of passage. Another words, you could sat I see getting your first black belt as a rite of passage but I like to call it "earning 1st dan" rather than "getting a black belt" since that differentiates between earning the rank and having the physical belt in your possession which anybody can do simply by buying it at a martial arts store, ect. But I don't really care about rank progression beyond 1st dan as at that point I just like to keep training and keep getting better. But after that, Im for the most part with you. I don't really care about belt color or as I said rank progression beyond 1st dan. And if I start learning some new style I don't really care much about belt color, not after already earning the rank of 1st dan in a primary style. Right now I am training in Goju Ryu and in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. In BJJ I've got two stripes on my white belt so I've been promoted twice since starting and in Goju Ryu I've got a yellow belt which is the belt right after white so I've been promoted once in that style. While it's nice to be promoted and while it would be nice to someday get black belts in both those styles, or to put it more accurately, earn 1st dan in both those styles, as of right now I am much more interested in learning the material.


The way I look at, chase improvement, not rank.  Rank will be a byproduct, not a cause.  I chased rank during my first stint while I was 18-24.  Now that I restarted at 38 and am 41, the belt doesn’t motivate me; outperforming my own personal expectations motivates me.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 30, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> The way I look at, chase improvement, not rank.  Rank will be a byproduct, not a cause.  I chased rank during my first stint while I was 18-24.  Now that I restarted at 38 and am 41, the belt doesn’t motivate me; outperforming my own personal expectations motivates me.


I see what you mean but here's the thing, improvement is mandatory for earning rank. So if you are going to pursue rank you will also be pursuing improvement as its a requirement for earning rank.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 30, 2017)

*why belt test? *

1. quality control.
2. force your students to meet the requirement.

For ACSCA, you cannot obtain your 2nd degree black belt if you don't compete in tournament. This will force your students to test your skill in the ring or on the mat.

The belt is not important. What's important is the test and meet requirement.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 30, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The belt is not important. What's important is the test and meet requirement.


This has always been my view. And it doesn't change if the "test" becomes an informal evaluation over time. And it doesn't change if (in either of those cases) the belt doesn't even exist.


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## JR 137 (Oct 30, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I see what you mean but here's the thing, improvement is mandatory for earning rank. So if you are going to pursue rank you will also be pursuing improvement as its a requirement for earning rank.


In a perfect world where belt mills don’t exist, absolutely.  In a world where there are no 4th degree black belts who aren’t old enough to legally drive, absolutely.

I saw one of those 4th dans at a TKD demo in a mall one time.  I was giving her the benefit of the doubt and thinking she just looked really young.  Then in the food court, I overheard her mother saying (they were sitting behind me) “I can’t wait until you’re old enough to drive so I don’t have to drag you all over the place for these things.”  I felt sorry for her, as it wasn’t a great thing for her to have to hear.  Way to support your kid.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 30, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The belt is not important. What's important is the test and meet requirement.


Well the belt itself is not the actual rank, its a symbol of the rank. Earning the rank, as opposed to obtaining a belt (which anybody with some extra dollars can do simply by buying it at a store) is a matter of, as you put it, meeting the requirements.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This has always been my view. And it doesn't change if the "test" becomes an informal evaluation over time. And it doesn't change if (in either of those cases) the belt doesn't even exist.



Well in some styles they do promote you based on your evaluation over time as opposed to formally testing you. From my experience that's how its done in BJJ, at least that's how its done where I do BJJ. As for the belt not existing, there are some styles that use other symbols to display rank, for instance, some styles use patches.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 30, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> In a perfect world where belt mills don’t exist, absolutely.  In a world where there are no 4th degree black belts who aren’t old enough to legally drive, absolutely.
> 
> I saw one of those 4th dans at a TKD demo in a mall one time.  I was giving her the benefit of the doubt and thinking she just looked really young.  Then in the food court, I overheard her mother saying (they were sitting behind me) “I can’t wait until you’re old enough to drive so I don’t have to drag you all over the place for these things.”  I felt sorry for her, as it wasn’t a great thing for her to have to hear.  Way to support your kid.



Well you're right, unfortunately lots of martial arts schools are belt mills. I've visited various martial arts schools and observed classes and I've seen public demonstrations put on by certain martial arts academies and some of them were absolutely horrible. The black belts performing were so bad it just about made me cringe. 

Now as for me and what I said earlier about earning rank. If I were to earn rank I would want to earn it at a good legitimate school where you have to work hard to be promoted. As for those belt mills and those TKD schools that you mention where they have 4th dans who are too young to drive, you will not find me wasting my time there.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 31, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well in some styles they do promote you based on your evaluation over time as opposed to formally testing you. From my experience that's how its done in BJJ, at least that's how its done where I do BJJ. As for the belt not existing, there are some styles that use other symbols to display rank, for instance, some styles use patches.


Agreed. And some use no ranks, at all, but there's still the same basic process. The instructor is evaluating along the way, judging what they are ready for next, etc. Belt, ranks, and formal tests are just tools to formalize that same process, and can have other uses, as well.


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## PhotonGuy (Nov 5, 2017)

So anyway, some of the posters here such as JR 137 have talked about pursing improvement instead of rank. Well, with pursuing rank and just pursuing improvement there is this major difference. This is assuming that you’re going to a dojo with good standards where you have to work hard to earn rank, so Im not talking about belt mills that hand 4th degree black belts to students who are not even old enough to drive as JR 137 pointed out. If you’re at a dojo where you have to work hard to earn rank than in order to earn rank you not only have to pursue improvement but you have to improve in specific ways that will meet your instructor’s standards for rank advancement. Lets say you’ve got a really good round kick but your reverse punch is lacking. You might want to work on your round kick even more and get it even better and get it the best as it can be. That’s all fine and good and I do think its smart to focus on your strengths and develop them to their greatest potential but if your instructor requires both a good round kick and a good reverse punch for rank advancement, you can improve your roundhouse kick until you’re blue in the face and you will not be promoted as long as your reverse punch is lacking. In order to earn rank you will have to improve your reverse punch so that its up to par. So that is how striving for rank is different than just striving for improvement.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 5, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So anyway, some of the posters here such as JR 137 have talked about pursing improvement instead of rank. Well, with pursuing rank and just pursuing improvement there is this major difference. This is assuming that you’re going to a dojo with good standards where you have to work hard to earn rank, so Im not talking about belt mills that hand 4th degree black belts to students who are not even old enough to drive as JR 137 pointed out. If you’re at a dojo where you have to work hard to earn rank than in order to earn rank you not only have to pursue improvement but you have to improve in specific ways that will meet your instructor’s standards for rank advancement. Lets say you’ve got a really good round kick but your reverse punch is lacking. You might want to work on your round kick even more and get it even better and get it the best as it can be. That’s all fine and good and I do think its smart to focus on your strengths and develop them to their greatest potential but if your instructor requires both a good round kick and a good reverse punch for rank advancement, you can improve your roundhouse kick until you’re blue in the face and you will not be promoted as long as your reverse punch is lacking. In order to earn rank you will have to improve your reverse punch so that its up to par. So that is how striving for rank is different than just striving for improvement.


True, though I suspect the instructor at a similar school with no ranks will also require improvement of that reverse punch, if it is key.


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## JR 137 (Nov 5, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So anyway, some of the posters here such as JR 137 have talked about pursing improvement instead of rank. Well, with pursuing rank and just pursuing improvement there is this major difference. This is assuming that you’re going to a dojo with good standards where you have to work hard to earn rank, so Im not talking about belt mills that hand 4th degree black belts to students who are not even old enough to drive as JR 137 pointed out. If you’re at a dojo where you have to work hard to earn rank than in order to earn rank you not only have to pursue improvement but you have to improve in specific ways that will meet your instructor’s standards for rank advancement. Lets say you’ve got a really good round kick but your reverse punch is lacking. You might want to work on your round kick even more and get it even better and get it the best as it can be. That’s all fine and good and I do think its smart to focus on your strengths and develop them to their greatest potential but if your instructor requires both a good round kick and a good reverse punch for rank advancement, you can improve your roundhouse kick until you’re blue in the face and you will not be promoted as long as your reverse punch is lacking. In order to earn rank you will have to improve your reverse punch so that its up to par. So that is how striving for rank is different than just striving for improvement.


You make some great points that I haven’t really considered.  I like them, and agree for the most part.

But there’s a fundamental difference between chasing rank and chasing improvement IMO.  During my 18-24 year old stint in karate, I chased rank.  It was about learning my material for the current rank, and doing it to a “good enough” standard to be promoted so I can learn the next group of cool stuff.  Repeat until black belt.  I was quite good, and I exceeded the my teacher’s minimum standards.  It certainly wasn’t a belt mill, and I genuinely earned each promotion.

During my 38-present (41) stint in a very close syllabus-wise school, I’m chasing improvement.  I’m not looking to learn the next grade’s “cool stuff.”  My goal isn’t a black belt around my waist.  Whatever I’m doing, I want to do it better than I think I can.  Wowing onlookers, classmates and my teacher is all fine and good, but it doesn’t do anything for me anymore.  I’m more critical of myself than anyone else is of me; they see my flaws, but I feel them.  Quite often they’re easier to feel than to see.  Granted, they see flaws that I don’t see or feel, so I get it from both sides.

I guess chasing rank is a “good enough” mentality, whereas chasing improvement is a perfectionist mentality.  It was and is for me, anyway.

Here’s a better way to put it: my first go round, I learned taikyoku 1-3 kata as a white belt.  My mentality was do it well enough so I can learn Pinan 1 kata, as that looked cool.  When I went back this time, I wanted to perfect taikyoku 1-3 before I started working on Pinan 1.  All I know for certain is at 41 I’m so much better than I was at 21.  I may not be as flexible and capable of jumping around as I was, but I’m better in every single other way.  I’m sharper, faster, stronger, and can take a hit far better.

Oh yeah, I don’t recover like I did in my 20s either.


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## Thisposthuman (Nov 8, 2017)

A lot if you seem to consider things the way i do, I really only are about getting better at my craft and as long as the belt testing (or not testing) doesnt keep me from getting access to the training I will likely skip it.  However I understand from an instructors position how its helpful to identify which students have put in the hours.


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## JR 137 (Nov 8, 2017)

Thisposthuman said:


> A lot if you seem to consider things the way i do, I really only are about getting better at my craft and as long as the belt testing (or not testing) doesnt keep me from getting access to the training I will likely skip it.  However I understand from an instructors position how its helpful to identify which students have put in the hours.


Absolutely.  And it’s of greater benefit in a large school where there’s several different people teaching on specific nights.  And of great benefit when going to a clinic/seminar/mass workout where multiple schools from the same organization are present; groups can be quickly and easily divided based on rank, ability, knowledge of the syllabus, etc.; or an instructor can modify things to get as many people simultaneously involved as possible.


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## skribs (Nov 21, 2017)

I'm going to speak from the perspective of a Taekwondo student and an instructor at my school.  Yesterday there was a kid in our green belt class, of which we have ranks Green and Green I.  The Green I is a higher rank, denoted with a black stripe down the belt.  I told the solid green belts to have a seat while I had the Green I's perform their techniques.  One of the solid green students was adamant that he knew their stuff, so he should be able to practice.  I told him no, mainly because I wanted to focus my attention on the students who were at that rank at that point in time.

However, when it came time for his group to perform, his performance was terrible.  His focus wasn't good.  His stances were terrible, techniques were sloppy, and he kept forgetting his curriculum.  I was extra hard on him yesterday, because it was clear he needed to practice his stuff more and pay more attention to what he was doing.

Obviously, this is not the same situation as an adult who just wants to learn techniques and doesn't care about ranks, but I've seen the same thing in adults who want to learn how to do the fancy flying kicks before they have a firm enough foundation in the basic kicks.  People who try to learn too many techniques at once are sloppy with all of them.  This is part of why I think belt ranks exist, and even if it doesn't matter to your ego what rank you are, it can be useful to progress through the ranks so that your training will be at the level you expect it to be.

If another instructor comes in, or if new students come in, it would also be helpful for them to see you at a higher rank.  From the perspective of another instructor, he should be able to see that you are ready for that stage of teaching.  From another student's perspective, they shouldn't see someone else of their belt training in things they aren't ready for.


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## PhotonGuy (Nov 21, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> You make some great points that I haven’t really considered.  I like them, and agree for the most part.
> 
> But there’s a fundamental difference between chasing rank and chasing improvement IMO.  During my 18-24 year old stint in karate, I chased rank.  It was about learning my material for the current rank, and doing it to a “good enough” standard to be promoted so I can learn the next group of cool stuff.  Repeat until black belt.  I was quite good, and I exceeded the my teacher’s minimum standards.  It certainly wasn’t a belt mill, and I genuinely earned each promotion.


I see what you mean, but for me when Im striving for rank I want to do not just well enough to meet the standards minimally I want to blow them out of the water. Achieving rank is all about meeting certain standards for certain levels that are set by an instructor that you've put your time and trust into. And if Im pursuing rank, while I obviously do want to meet such standards I want to go well beyond them if possible and be the best I can be. And 1st Dan, the first rank represented with a black belt is by no means the end. There's 2nd Dan, 3rd Dan, ect. Some people want to pursue higher Dan ranks. Some people don't care about further rank advancement after making 1st Dan. I've known people who don't care to advance past 3rd Kyu which is represented with a brown belt and then there are those who don't care about rank at all. Whatever rank somebody wants to earn or whether or not a student cares about earning rank is a choice and the way I see it, there is nothing wrong with making whatever choice you want in regards to what rank you want to earn or whether or not you want to earn rank as long as you don't try pushing your choice on others. 



JR 137 said:


> During my 38-present (41) stint in a very close syllabus-wise school, I’m chasing improvement.  I’m not looking to learn the next grade’s “cool stuff.”


Well as far as the next grade's cool stuff, from my experience about 90 percent of what you will use in the martial arts you learn during your first few belts. To this day I would say most of the techniques that I emphasize the most and train in the most are techniques I learned as a white belt. Even the more complex combinations and forms are often just made up of basics that you learn as a beginner. After that, its all a matter of improving what you learned when you first started out. Both a beginner with just a week of training and an experienced practitioner with many years of training are going to know the reverse punch, but the more experienced practitioner will have honed it to a much greater degree of skill and effectiveness. So most of the cool stuff you learn as a beginner, than its just a matter of making it better.



JR 137 said:


> My goal isn’t a black belt around my waist.


Well the physical black belt is not the actual rank, its a symbol of the rank. If your goal is to have the physical belt around your waist you can simply buy one as people on this forum have suggested. Some of the people have provided links to sources where you can buy belts although such links wouldn't be necessary, all you have to do is google martial arts supplies and find a site that sells belts where you can buy a black belt and put it on.
If your goal is to earn the rank of 1st Dan that's a different story. Earning 1st Dan means meeting standards that are set by an instructor, not wearing a belt that symbolizes that you've met those standards.



JR 137 said:


> Whatever I’m doing, I want to do it better than I think I can.  Wowing onlookers, classmates and my teacher is all fine and good, but it doesn’t do anything for me anymore.  I’m more critical of myself than anyone else is of me; they see my flaws, but I feel them.  Quite often they’re easier to feel than to see.  Granted, they see flaws that I don’t see or feel, so I get it from both sides.


I agree in always trying to do stuff better. I also agree in doing stuff not to impress others but to give myself confidence and feel good about myself.



JR 137 said:


> I guess chasing rank is a “good enough” mentality, whereas chasing improvement is a perfectionist mentality.  It was and is for me, anyway.


You're not going to acquire rank without chasing improvement provided you're not training at a belt mill. But, like I said before I want to go above and beyond the requirements for rank not just squeak by.



JR 137 said:


> Here’s a better way to put it: my first go round, I learned taikyoku 1-3 kata as a white belt.  My mentality was do it well enough so I can learn Pinan 1 kata, as that looked cool.  When I went back this time, I wanted to perfect taikyoku 1-3 before I started working on Pinan 1.  All I know for certain is at 41 I’m so much better than I was at 21.  I may not be as flexible and capable of jumping around as I was, but I’m better in every single other way.  I’m sharper, faster, stronger, and can take a hit far better.
> 
> Oh yeah, I don’t recover like I did in my 20s either.


I want to perfect the katas I know now and make them the best possible. When Im ready, my instructor will teach me more. Today he just taught me some new sai techniques.

And Im your age and Im in the best shape ever.


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## PhotonGuy (Nov 21, 2017)

Thisposthuman said:


> A lot if you seem to consider things the way i do, I really only are about getting better at my craft and as long as the belt testing (or not testing) doesnt keep me from getting access to the training I will likely skip it.  However I understand from an instructors position how its helpful to identify which students have put in the hours.



If your instructor does use rank, you might have to go up in rank before learning more advanced material.


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## senseiblackbelt (Nov 22, 2017)

Greetings Earthling. 

Let me explain why we have belt tests.

Well, think about it this way. 

In order for an instructor to know what your abilities are, and, wether you fit the requirements to move onto advanced training, obviously, he/she must formally test you to see what your abilities are.

If you pass the test, obviously, you get the next belt. We both know that.

Each belt signifies something. For example, white belt signifies that you are a beginner, while black belt signifies you are very advanced. 

TL;DR: Reason we have belt tests is so that instructor can see what your abilities are and wether you can move onto next belt.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 22, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well as far as the next grade's cool stuff, from my experience about 90 percent of what you will use in the martial arts you learn during your first few belts. To this day I would say most of the techniques that I emphasize the most and train in the most are techniques I learned as a white belt. Even the more complex combinations and forms are often just made up of basics that you learn as a beginner. After that, its all a matter of improving what you learned when you first started out. Both a beginner with just a week of training and an experienced practitioner with many years of training are going to know the reverse punch, but the more experienced practitioner will have honed it to a much greater degree of skill and effectiveness. So most of the cool stuff you learn as a beginner, than its just a matter of making it better.


This is as it should be. The basic techniques should be brought out early, and then built upon. In some (maybe all) traditional styles, there are more complex and/or harder techniques and methods taught at higher ranks. These actually build upon principles started earlier (or should, anyway), and often have one or two purposes: having something difficult people must be able to do to qualify for the next rank, and giving folks something new to learn and work on to keep them curious.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 22, 2017)

senseiblackbelt said:


> Greetings Earthling.
> 
> Let me explain why we have belt tests.
> 
> ...


This is the reason many use belt tests, but the bolded/underlined part isn't really accurate. It's possible to assess a student without a formal test. Formal tests are (IMO) the easiest way to make the assessment a bit more objective for some types of assessment, but there are other ways to assess.


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## senseiblackbelt (Nov 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This is the reason many use belt tests, but the bolded/underlined part isn't really accurate. It's possible to assess a student without a formal test. Formal tests are (IMO) the easiest way to make the assessment a bit more objective for some types of assessment, but there are other ways to assess.



What are the other ways someone can assess a student without formal test?


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 22, 2017)

senseiblackbelt said:


> What are the other ways someone can assess a student without formal test?


I can watch them in classes, look for mistakes, systematic errors, and their level of progress. It takes longer to see everything I need (I want to evaluate every technique before they progress), but I can gather my information that way. This is how instructors who don't use ranks (something I considered) decide when a student is ready for new material. In BJJ, a common assessment method is simply to see how they fare against the next rank up when rolling. If a blue belt is holding their own with purple belts, he's ready to be a purple belt. That doesn't require formal testing - just noticing folks who are consistently doing pretty well against folks who outrank them.


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## JR 137 (Nov 22, 2017)

senseiblackbelt said:


> What are the other ways someone can assess a student without formal test?


Adding on to what gpseymour said, many teachers won’t test a student unless they’re confident the student is ready to promote and capable of passing the test.  The only way the student in this scenario will fail is if the student doesn’t take the test seriously, does something truly disrespectful (including not taking the test seriously), gives up during the test, of flat out freezes under the pressure and can’t be brought back. If this is the case, the test isn’t really a test; it’s more of a formality, demonstration, etc.

I’m a school teacher.  In a smaller setting (such as not having 100s of students in a lecture hall) I don’t need tests to know where my students are academically and if they’re capable of moving on.  It helps, but it’s genuinely overrated.  The main purpose it serves is putting an actual number/letter that corresponds to their level of understanding that they and everyone else has access to.  I don’t need number/letter grades to know which students are excelling, which ones are average, which ones are lower performing, which ones need extra help now and possibly at the next level, and which ones need to be held back.  The grades are realistically for everyone but me; so they can see what I’m seeing without being there every day and so my opinions are justified.  There have been a few students who’ve surprised me with their test grades, good and bad, but they’re the exception.  And after a test or two, there’s really no surprises anymore.  

MA really isn’t much different.  Teaching is teaching.  So long as you know your students, there’s no real need from an assessment standpoint.  The only time I think they’re genuinely needed is if there’s a lot of students and multiple teachers teaching under the same roof.  It’s also a great thing to have someone else within the organization test students as a checks and balances thing.  My CI is allowed and easily capable of testing us for dan ranks.  He has his teacher, which is our organization’s founder do it instead.  It keeps the whole process far credible IMO.  Not that that doesn’t have its own inherent flaws, but it’s a better way IMO.


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## PhotonGuy (Nov 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> True, though I suspect the instructor at a similar school with no ranks will also require improvement of that reverse punch, if it is key.



Well its one thing to improve a reverse punch, its another thing to improve a reverse punch, along with everything else, to a level that would qualify you for an advance in rank.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 22, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well its one thing to improve a reverse punch, its another thing to improve a reverse punch, along with everything else, to a level that would qualify you for an advance in rank.


It is, but again, if those improvements are key, then they'll eventually be part of the expectations someplace where there are no ranks. Generally, the ideal (whether it's well executed or not) is that the ranks are meant to simply be milestones in development, so the requirements are meant to support that development, rather than being arbitrary.


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## JR 137 (Nov 22, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I see what you mean, but for me when Im striving for rank I want to do not just well enough to meet the standards minimally I want to blow them out of the water. Achieving rank is all about meeting certain standards for certain levels that are set by an instructor that you've put your time and trust into. And if Im pursuing rank, while I obviously do want to meet such standards I want to go well beyond them if possible and be the best I can be. And 1st Dan, the first rank represented with a black belt is by no means the end. There's 2nd Dan, 3rd Dan, ect. Some people want to pursue higher Dan ranks. Some people don't care about further rank advancement after making 1st Dan. I've known people who don't care to advance past 3rd Kyu which is represented with a brown belt and then there are those who don't care about rank at all. Whatever rank somebody wants to earn or whether or not a student cares about earning rank is a choice and the way I see it, there is nothing wrong with making whatever choice you want in regards to what rank you want to earn or whether or not you want to earn rank as long as you don't try pushing your choice on others.
> 
> 
> Well as far as the next grade's cool stuff, from my experience about 90 percent of what you will use in the martial arts you learn during your first few belts. To this day I would say most of the techniques that I emphasize the most and train in the most are techniques I learned as a white belt. Even the more complex combinations and forms are often just made up of basics that you learn as a beginner. After that, its all a matter of improving what you learned when you first started out. Both a beginner with just a week of training and an experienced practitioner with many years of training are going to know the reverse punch, but the more experienced practitioner will have honed it to a much greater degree of skill and effectiveness. So most of the cool stuff you learn as a beginner, than its just a matter of making it better.
> ...


I’m pretty sure we’re 99% on the same page, just different ways of saying it.


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## PhotonGuy (Nov 23, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I’m a school teacher.  In a smaller setting (such as not having 100s of students in a lecture hall) I don’t need tests to know where my students are academically and if they’re capable of moving on.  It helps, but it’s genuinely overrated.  The main purpose it serves is putting an actual number/letter that corresponds to their level of understanding that they and everyone else has access to.  I don’t need number/letter grades to know which students are excelling, which ones are average, which ones are lower performing, which ones need extra help now and possibly at the next level, and which ones need to be held back.  The grades are realistically for everyone but me; so they can see what I’m seeing without being there every day and so my opinions are justified.  There have been a few students who’ve surprised me with their test grades, good and bad, but they’re the exception.  And after a test or two, there’s really no surprises anymore.


Well interestingly enough when it comes to academic testing tests are given when they're given, all the students take the test at the same time, and whether or not a student is ready for it shows in the grade they get. If there's a test on Friday you've got to take the test on Friday along with all the other students whether or not you're ready and if you aren't ready you get a bad grade. Another words, its up to the student to be ready for the test when the test is administered, not the other way around. This is opposite than how its usually done with testing in the martial arts.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 23, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well interestingly enough when it comes to academic testing tests are given when they're given, all the students take the test at the same time, and whether or not a student is ready for it shows in the grade they get. If there's a test on Friday you've got to take the test on Friday along with all the other students whether or not you're ready and if you aren't ready you get a bad grade. Another words, its up to the student to be ready for the test when the test is administered, not the other way around. This is opposite than how its usually done with testing in the martial arts.


That model is a necessity in the structure of education. And it means some folks have to wait and wait and wait to test, while others are not ready in spite of their best efforts. The original intention is for the teacher to be able to see who needs help at each point along the way. In some cases (as JR said) it’s not necessary to that end. 

I don’t consider it a model of best practices.


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## skribs (Nov 24, 2017)

Keep in mind that if perfecting your techniques is your goal, you may want to progress.  While I wouldn't ever stop giving people advice, if I see a white belt that has a green belt level kick, I'm not going to worry too much about it.  I'm going to help the white belt that has a really white-belt level kick get ready for the yellow belt test.

If I see a green belt with a green belt level kick, I'm going to be more apt to help him improve that to the next level.

Obviously if I'm working one-on-one with someone, I'll want to help them improve regardless, but if I'm helping out with a class and I'm picking who needs help, I'm going to want to help those that are struggling first.


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## JR 137 (Nov 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That model is a necessity in the structure of education. And it means some folks have to wait and wait and wait to test, while others are not ready in spite of their best efforts. The original intention is for the teacher to be able to see who needs help at each point along the way. In some cases (as JR said) it’s not necessary to that end.
> 
> I don’t consider it a model of best practices.


In the classroom, I find that the ones who don’t get it won’t get it no matter how much I delay the test.  Maybe they’ll do minimally better, but nothing drastic.  That’s not a put-down; some people just don’t truly “get” certain things.  I teach grades 4-9 science.  I have a 7th grade girl who’s been in my classroom 4 years now.  She’s a little above average academically.  But she’s absolutely bombed the cells test EVERY SINGLE TIME.  I’ve noticed the same thing with other students in other units.  Not to her extent, but close enough to it.  I know when I hand her that test, she’s going to score low 60s at best.  The rest of her tests are always upper 80s.  I’ve tried several different strategies, but I’ve resigned myself to just dropping that test score for her.  I just did that 2 weeks ago.  If she’s still in my school in 9th grade, I know I’ll have to do it again.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 25, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> In the classroom, I find that the ones who don’t get it won’t get it no matter how much I delay the test.  Maybe they’ll do minimally better, but nothing drastic.  That’s not a put-down; some people just don’t truly “get” certain things.  I teach grades 4-9 science.  I have a 7th grade girl who’s been in my classroom 4 years now.  She’s a little above average academically.  But she’s absolutely bombed the cells test EVERY SINGLE TIME.  I’ve noticed the same thing with other students in other units.  Not to her extent, but close enough to it.  I know when I hand her that test, she’s going to score low 60s at best.  The rest of her tests are always upper 80s.  I’ve tried several different strategies, but I’ve resigned myself to just dropping that test score for her.  I just did that 2 weeks ago.  If she’s still in my school in 9th grade, I know I’ll have to do it again.


Especially at those ages, we all have areas where we don't gather information the same way as others. In 8th grade, I had to drop a level in math because I just couldn't "get" the algebra in the honors class. I took the exact same class (same teacher - mixed grades 8/9), and had an easy A. My brain just wasn't ready the first time. And I never did well in History, though reading and discussing history has always been interesting and fun for me - I don't gather and process dates and names like the presentation method is designed for.


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## drop bear (Nov 26, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> In the classroom, I find that the ones who don’t get it won’t get it no matter how much I delay the test.  Maybe they’ll do minimally better, but nothing drastic.  That’s not a put-down; some people just don’t truly “get” certain things.  I teach grades 4-9 science.  I have a 7th grade girl who’s been in my classroom 4 years now.  She’s a little above average academically.  But she’s absolutely bombed the cells test EVERY SINGLE TIME.  I’ve noticed the same thing with other students in other units.  Not to her extent, but close enough to it.  I know when I hand her that test, she’s going to score low 60s at best.  The rest of her tests are always upper 80s.  I’ve tried several different strategies, but I’ve resigned myself to just dropping that test score for her.  I just did that 2 weeks ago.  If she’s still in my school in 9th grade, I know I’ll have to do it again.



Training camp. 

You will be amazed what people get if they have to.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 18, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I’m pretty sure we’re 99% on the same page, just different ways of saying it.


Yes I believe we are. In the past there has been some trouble with other people on this forum understanding where Im coming from but that was probably just due to me not explaining things well enough. But Im working on that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 18, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes I believe we are. In the past there has been some trouble with other people on this forum understanding where Im coming from but that was probably just due to me not explaining things well enough. But Im working on that.


We all are, brother. I think a lot of the quick disagreements that happen are mis-communications and/or snap judgments based upon who posted.


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## JP3 (Dec 19, 2017)

I'm not KM either, but my thinking on ranks and rank structures is two-fold.  On the one hand, it's a useful goal-setting activity paradigm for the student, if the art lends itself into such a breakdown of the path of learning. Second, it's an aid to the instructor, so as to know what the student has already accomplished, what they know, what they need to know, and what to be watching for.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 20, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> We all are, brother. I think a lot of the quick disagreements that happen are mis-communications and/or snap judgments based upon who posted.



Well yes and that's why I sometimes wish I could take back stuff I said in the past so that I wouldn't have the reputation I've got and thus people wouldn't make snap judgements about stuff I say. 

As for proper communication, I will just have to keep working on that.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 20, 2017)

JP3 said:


> I'm not KM either, but my thinking on ranks and rank structures is two-fold.  On the one hand, it's a useful goal-setting activity paradigm for the student, if the art lends itself into such a breakdown of the path of learning. Second, it's an aid to the instructor, so as to know what the student has already accomplished, what they know, what they need to know, and what to be watching for.



I do agree that rank can be good for goal setting on the part of the student although not all students care to earn rank. People take up the martial arts for a wide variety of reasons, some people might want to lose weight and get in good shape, some people might want to be able to defend themselves, some people are just fascinated with the beauty of the arts, the list goes on and on and there might be many reasons why a student takes up martial arts. Wanting to earn rank is only one of the many reasons and usually students who want to earn rank have other reasons for training as well. Than there are those students who could care less about earning rank and maybe just want to get in shape or they have other reasons.

As for rank being an aid to the instructor, I believe most instructors know where their students are at in terms of skill and ability and what new material they might be ready to learn. Some instructors don't even use rank so they would have to know where their students are at. Usually though, if your style does have a ranking system, you will have to advance in rank before you're taught more advanced material. 

As for students who don't care about earning rank, there is nothing wrong with that but there is also nothing wrong with a student wanting to earn rank. I don't hold anything against martial artists who don't care about earning rank as long as they don't try to push that choice on others.


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## dvcochran (Dec 21, 2017)

Thisposthuman said:


> I share your sentiment toward the belts.  We do not have uniforms and no one wears belts during training, so it really doesnt matter.  The instructors know everyone by name and how long they have been there except for the people in their first couple of weeks.  At our school, you start at beginner class but everything beyond that is by invite only.  Essentially the instructor makes a case by case judgement on what you can handle and thats how you move up into more advanced training.  There are classes on MT, boxing, jiu jitsu...if you go through "level 1" classes enough times and the instructor thinks you can defend yourself well enough not to get hurt in a higher level, they will invite you...all that said, I am in for self defense period, i really couldnt care less about rank as long as it doesnt bar me from participation in advanced training. I could see, that if i change schools it could be hars for me to prove on paper my capabilities.


You make a good point regarding changing schools. Especially paper certification helps if you travel a lot and workout at other schools. I have done this very many times and it makes breaking the ice with an instructor you have never met before much easier. Nothing worse than a jack leg coming into a Dojang saying they are something they are not.
It sounds like testing is of little or no importance in your environment.  It is much easier in smaller groups to work it that way.


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## TheArtofDave (Mar 25, 2018)

Thisposthuman said:


> I have been studying Krav Maga for just over a year and have never done a belt test.  My instructors never push it on me and it hasnt held me back in training but I am the only one of my peers, whom i started with, who isnt going for belts.  I wanted to throw this out there to the krav community of why you all think it is or is not important.



This post human you can request to test for rank in Krav Maga but the testing would be by invite only. You have to train under a brown belt to get your black belt once you get to level 5. Hope this helps.

Or you can do it without belts.


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## Fred Claus (Oct 4, 2018)

My take on belts is this.  If you can show that you know the material, and you can perform the material to the skill level that your instructor wants, and he can see that without "Belt Testing" you then I would go for it.  The belts show how skilled you are in the form.  I wasn't big on belts either when I was in Karate as a kid. Mainly because in order to get the higher ones you had to pay a couple hundred to go to a tournament, and win. If you didn't win so many matches you didn't get your belt.  

Now if you want the skills for use as an instructor some day, then a belt test would be required.  Most certified instructing schools require you to be belt ranked before you can certify to teach.  I took KM for 2 years before I tested for a belt.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2018)

Fred Claus said:


> My take on belts is this.  If you can show that you know the material, and you can perform the material to the skill level that your instructor wants, and he can see that without "Belt Testing" you then I would go for it.  The belts show how skilled you are in the form.  I wasn't big on belts either when I was in Karate as a kid. Mainly because in order to get the higher ones you had to pay a couple hundred to go to a tournament, and win. If you didn't win so many matches you didn't get your belt.
> 
> Now if you want the skills for use as an instructor some day, then a belt test would be required.  Most certified instructing schools require you to be belt ranked before you can certify to teach.  I took KM for 2 years before I tested for a belt.


My take is that if a program uses belts, then the belts (and the progression through them) is part of the program. If you don't want to do the belts, why join that program?

I'm more than okay with someone not being interested in belts. But if they train with me, they're still going to have to progress through those belts. Why? Because I'm not going to invent a new approach just for one student. No need for it.


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## TheArtofDave (Mar 7, 2022)

I know it's been awhile since I last posted, and the last post was 2018, but I just wanted to post an update. 

Krav doesn't usually put an emphasis on belts although they do have a system that goes to black belt. You can request to wear the belts from your dojo/school so can choose to rank up that way if you're more comfortable


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