# Wujiquan...



## IrishMonk (Sep 8, 2010)

Well, after moving and therefore unable to continue my Wing Chun studies with no Sifu close... I have finally excepted I need to move on, lol. However, on the upside I have found a school close by which offers 
-*Wu-Xing-Ba-Fa-Lo-Han Shao-Lin Quan Fa*
*-Yang Style TaijiQuan*
*-WujiQuan*

I found the school ( Wujidomartialarts.com ) looking to start training in TaijiQuan, but then this WujiQuan caught my eye. They say it is the oldest of all the Chinese MA systems, and a rare art to learn. 

Anyone have any knowledge of this art and/or this school ? Thanks all....


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## clfsean (Sep 9, 2010)

Eh to me it sends up red flags with some of the "marketing" used on the site.


"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Oldest Extant Martial Art of China" --> and only HE has it... 
[/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]the only other Chinese Wushu with legitimate Battlefield Lineage --> referring to Xingyi Quan and only HE has it ... and there are others besides XYQ[/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]dating back to the Former Han Dynasty --> time frame dating to just after Qin Shi Huang Di[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]The system is very rare and its techniques are known to a small handful of masters --> Really[/SIZE][/FONT]
 USA Martial Arts Hall of Fame.
Among things a striking flag in the name... 


Wuji DO --> :uhyeah:
And others... 

BUT ... this is just me...


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## mograph (Sep 9, 2010)

Wujiquan is a very special art, but you have to just stand there and don't move. If you move, it's not wujiquan any more. 

But boy, are you centered.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 9, 2010)

clfsean said:


> Eh to me it sends up red flags with some of the "marketing" used on the site.
> 
> 
> "Oldest Extant Martial Art of China" --> and only HE has it...
> ...


 
No its not just you.. Its me too.

What hits me right off the bat is "oldest of all the Chinese MA systems"

That was either written by someone who is clueless about CMA history or it is an outright lie for advertising purposes

The oldest of all Chinese Martial Arts Systems would be Shuaijiao 

Dating to the Han Dynasty let me see Early Han was 206 BCE to 9 Ad and later Han was 25 Ad to 220 AD. Shuaijiao is said to have a mythical lineage back to 2697 BC (Yellow Emperor) but it has a historical link to the Zhou dynasty 1122 BCE to 256 BCE

Xingyiquan has a battle field lineage as does Bajiquan and Xingyiquan is traced back to Dai Xinyiquan and Dai Longbang from there you get Shanxi style Xingyiquan, Hebei style Xingyiquan  and Henan Style Xingyiquan and there are multiple sub styles off of these. From what anyone can tell historically Xingyi originated around the late 19th century. So its Ancestor is Dai Xinyiquan and the Dai family does not mention, anywhere in their history anything about some art called Wujiquan. However there is a stance called Wuji that is trained in Dai Xinyi and Xingyiquan and Taijiquan and just about anything Taoist or anything called internal or external so pretty much you can find it many CMA styles

Xingyiquan was taught in the Military Academy at Nanjing, to the Officers of the Chinese Army, during the Second Sino-Japanese War.

And reading what Wujiquan is on the page makes me think an awful lot about Yiquan which is VERY big on stance training.


And then there is this bit



> *The training program includes other systems as well, to expand the technical variations of the system, so various subsystems are taught. Among them are XingyiQuan, of course, BaGuaZhang, Eagle Claw (for Chin-na), Monkey, I-Quan, Snake, Sun TaijiQuan, Staff, Spear, Sword, and Saber.*
> *Also taught are combat applications against multiple attackers, ground-fighting, weapons disarming techniques, and so forth, and the Meditation System of Maha-Yoga-Cara category of techniques.*



That is one heck of a conglomeration to have and call it Wujiquan and as for the Also taught bits Yoga, how the heck did yoga het thrown into the mix?

Popular to contrary belief there was not any Yoga in Ancient China, There was no Taoist Yoga as one would define Yoga from India. So where did the Yoga of Wujiquan come from.

TO end this bit 

Wuji means literally without ridgepole but it is translated as ultimateless; boundless; infinite and later you get Limitless. Quan means fist so you get

Ultimateless fist
 Boundless fist
 Infinite fist  
Limitless fist

Sounds cool but is, IMO, is made up.

Wuji originates from the Warring states period which is 476 to 221 BCE

Basically I'm saying there are a whole lot of BIG red flags there


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## IrishMonk (Sep 9, 2010)

Oh man, that sucks. Thought I was gonna learn the rare, lost/found art of WujiQuan ! lol

Damn, they are the closest school to me teaching TaijiQuan,which is what I was after to begin with. 20 miles....  However, the phone number to contact about the tai chi classes is different than the number for contacting about wujiquan, somaybe I could get good tai chi training here????? I'm gonna give'm a call later. It worries me now....


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 9, 2010)

IrishMonk said:


> Oh man, that sucks. Thought I was gonna learn the rare, lost/found art of WujiQuan ! lol
> 
> Damn, they are the closest school to me teaching TaijiQuan,which is what I was after to begin with. 20 miles.... However, the phone number to contact about the tai chi classes is different than the number for contacting about wujiquan, somaybe I could get good tai chi training here????? I'm gonna give'm a call later. It worries me now....


 
Are you in Dallas?

If so, with a bit of Webfu found these

- Lee's White Leopard - Wu style Tajiquan
- White Lion Shaolin - Wing Chun, Yang style Taijiquan
- Center Tai Chi Studies
- The Wite Lion Shaolin
- Tai Chi at Korean Journal Cultural Center
- There is also a Chinese Cultural Center you can check in Garland Texas, they may know something

I know nothing about any of them but they might be worth checking out


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## IrishMonk (Sep 9, 2010)

thanks, yes I know of several of those...they are just further away, about 30 miles. they are all in north Dallas...south of Dallas the MA scene is nothing but 'Karate'/TKD, if that. But Ill check the Garland Chinese cultural center... thts close, thnx


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## Flying Crane (Sep 9, 2010)

sometimes the best teachers don't advertise and are teaching a small group in their back yards.  It can be tough to find them because they deliberately keep a low profile, do not rely on their teaching for their livlihood, and are not activley looking for students.  In fact, they may actively drive potential students away because they don't want to work with anyone they don't feel is very serious about their training.

The cultural institute may be a way to track down some of these folks.


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## clfsean (Sep 9, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> sometimes the best teachers don't advertise and are teaching a small group in their back yards.  It can be tough to find them because they deliberately keep a low profile, do not rely on their teaching for their livlihood, and are not activley looking for students.  In fact, they may actively drive potential students away because they don't want to work with anyone they don't feel is very serious about their training.
> 
> The cultural institute may be a way to track down some of these folks.



Good advice & truth all around!!


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## mograph (Sep 9, 2010)

Cultural Institute: good idea, Flying Crane. I was led to my Yiquan sifu through a friend. I'd have never heard of him if not for that connection, but he's big among the older Hong Kong expats around here. I've seen a shot of him doing a demo for the Chinese Seniors' Association, so if I were to find another like him in another city, I might seek out such an association, since they'd know where to find the old school guys.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 9, 2010)

I agree about all the red flags.  Without going deeply into it, the whole presentation on the website smacks of a marketing attempt to capitalize on the mystical and romantic side of Chinese martial arts *gag and puke*.  I hate that stuff, but that's just me.  Personally, I'd stay away from this group completely.  

Some comments on "battlefield" martial arts.

Firstly, if this Wujiquan was truly a "battlefield" system that was taught to hordes of soldiers, why did it not survive in greater abundance?  I mean if thousands of soldiers were taught this system then it ought to have survived down the ages thru multiple lineages, yes?  What happened?  Was wujiquan so poor that all the soldiers were slaughtered on the battlefield and it almost died out?  Makes ya wonder a bit...

Second, people sometimes use "battlefield" and "military" as marketing points.  Hey, it MUST be great if the military uses it!  But think about it.  What this means is that there are a WHOLE LOT of soldiers who need to learn this.  How well do you think someone can train 10,000 soldiers in a relatively brief period of time, to learn something?  Maybe things were different 1000 years ago when technology was less advanced and a soldiers skills might need to rely more heavily on his Hand-to-Hand skills.  But at least with today's soldiers who rely much more heavily on their rifles and high technology, the H2H skills are way on the back burner.  What this means is, the soldiers are often learning a stripped down system that can be taught and give them "reasonable" skills in a short period of time, i.e. the period of basic training.  

The fact that a system may have been a "military" system automatically suggests that it is superficial and limited in scope, and the soldiers probably did not develop high level skills with it.

Unless the individual soldier chooses to pursue his training in martial arts more deeply, most soldiers have very limited h2h skills and knowledge.

Just something to keep in mind when you see these issues used as a marketing point.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 9, 2010)

mograph said:


> Cultural Institute: good idea, Flying Crane. I was led to my Yiquan sifu through a friend. I'd have never heard of him if not for that connection, but he's big among the older Hong Kong expats around here. I've seen a shot of him doing a demo for the Chinese Seniors' Association, so if I were to find another like him in another city, I might seek out such an association, since they'd know where to find the old school guys.


 
I was hooked up with my sigung who teaches five of us in his back yard, and I am lucky to have access to this gold mine.  

My sifu teaches more commercially, but when he had taken me as far as he could in White Crane, he finally took me to sigung.  For a long time sigung was not interested in accepting anyone new, as he had his four disciples who has been with him for decades.  Finally he indicated that he might be willing to accept some new people, so sifu took me to him.  Otherwise it might have happened a few years earlier, but I'm just grateful that it happened at all.  I am a very very very lucky man to be studying with my sigung.  He is absolutely tops in Tibetan White Crane, and nobody gets access to him without the right connections.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 9, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> Second, people sometimes use "battlefield" and "military" as marketing points. Hey, it MUST be great if the military uses it! But think about it. What this means is that there are a WHOLE LOT of soldiers who need to learn this. How well do you think someone can train 10,000 soldiers in a relatively brief period of time, to learn something? Maybe things were different 1000 years ago when technology was less advanced and a soldiers skills might need to rely more heavily on his Hand-to-Hand skills. But at least with today's soldiers who rely much more heavily on their rifles and high technology, the H2H skills are way on the back burner. What this means is, the soldiers are often learning a stripped down system that can be taught and give them "reasonable" skills in a short period of time, i.e. the period of basic training.


 
Even the Xingyiquan that was taught in the Military Academy at Nanjing was not the full version. What was taught was what was needed for hand to hand combat that could be taught in a short amount of time and it was for hand to hand and weapons like a bayonet.
 
And if you go back further in Chinese History they depended a lot more on the sword, spear and various types of Halberds than they did on hand to hand. So Wujiquan, if it were ancient, would likely be the last thing any solider in the Chinese army would want to be doing much like the Sanda taught to the Chinese military today.



Flying Crane said:


> The fact that a system may have been a "military" system automatically suggests that it is superficial and limited in scope, and the soldiers probably did not develop high level skills with it.
> 
> Unless the individual soldier chooses to pursue his training in martial arts more deeply, most soldiers have very limited h2h skills and knowledge.


 
That would be debatable and highly dependent on how you define high level skill. But I get what you are saying. Even today my Sanda sifu is one hell of a good fighter and he was trained what they train the Police and Military in China and as far as fighting goes he is pretty high level. However he is impressed by my Taijiquan sifu and his level of skill. And I am not exactly sure that at 70 my Sanda sifu will be able to defend himself as my Taiji sifu is at 70.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 9, 2010)

I got to my Taiji sifu because a friend found him by accident; my Taiji sifu does not advertise or have an official school

I found my Sanda sifu because I knew him for awhile when one day he told me and he has no school either.

So as everyone is saying some of the real good CMA sifu's, particularly if they are Chinese, do not advertise.


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## oaktree (Sep 9, 2010)

> WujiQuan is to my knowledge the oldest extant Chinese Martial Art. It originates from the former Han Dynasty.


 
Well....Han Dynasty is 206-220 A.D. Zhou dynasty is 1045-256 B.C.
Shuai Jiao well Jiao Li is in the Zhou dynasty but even before that so
All this talk of ancient shamanism and what ever as the oldest Chinese art is just not true unless there is a source.

Well according to this site:

http://www.wu-chi-europe.com/wujie.html



> There exists no historical evidence of exactly when the passage of Wu Ji into the Shaolin tradition occurred;  Only that it was held in strict
> secrecy and passed on as an esoteric transmission divided into two parts from abbot to abbot ;  The form or actual movements themselves and the the
> theory as recorded in a book named Wu Ji Jing. This book probably described the philosophy and inner alchemy of the Wu Ji system.
> Chee Kim Thong was 17


 It supposely comes from Chee Kim Thong.

http://www.wu-chi-europe.com/

NOTE THIS IS A BABBLE FISH TRANSLATION I DO NOT SPEAK GERMAN.


> was valid already at the age of 14 years as combat art legend. Its first Meisterin was its grandmother. Including its teachings, he received an extensive training of five masters of different combat art styles. Master Chee at the age received the theories of the Wu Chi of 17 years of the venerable abbott and Zenmeister Yin Chan from the southern Shaolintempel POH gate in the province Fukien, close Xianmen. As one of the last few remaining Shaolinmeister from old time, this recognized the outstanding qualities of the young Chee Kim Thong and decided it too to instruct. In this connection master Chee apart from the combat art training received also extensive training in meditation and traditional Chinese medicine. Master Chee lived up to its death in the spring of the yearly 2001 over 40 years in Malaysia. Apart from its activity as a physician, he made these teachings for the first time for a broader public accessible, so that for over 15 years the possibility exists to learn also in the west Wu Chi Chuan. Large master Chee Kim Thong was well-known for its modest kind and his humorous training way, with which he could arrange its extensive knowledge for each interested one individually co-ordinated. Master Chee cared for world-wide pupils in numerous groups of trainings, which were visited regularly of it. Since 1989 it gives intensively for beginners and advanced opportunity, in the context of a 10-tägigen of summer course under line of its master pupils to learning and to practicing. Beside Wu Chi Chuan exists here the possibility, also different combat art forms of learning weapon techniques and special Chi gong forms. As example here that is, 12 steps Chi Gong" called. This special Chi gong consists of of courses of motion, which in standing, seats and couches implemented, in interaction with respiration and mental attention, which movements of the Chi suggest by the body and by the individual organs. Large master Chee Kim Thong teaches this Chi gong particularly for humans in the everyday life situation to the promotion of health and well-being.


 
So we went from most ancient chinese art to some guy named Chee Kim Thong. I have found videos of people doing what they call Wu chi chuan
Some more gold from him
http://taichidallas.com/interview.html



> Other than this I don't want to talk about it. It is a closed-door program.


 Usually people who are teaching in secret do not name their school after the secret!!
HAHAAHA....

He claims to teach Dao yin. I do not doubt Dao yin exists I am skeptic of
people knowing it. What I mean is Dao Yin is kinda of dead or merged with what we know is Qigong. So using the word Dao yin is using an archaic termology there are other words that were used to describe Qigong such as Tu na which is archaic too. 

I personally would not train with this guy. I do not know his teacher and as others have said quite alot of red flags.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 9, 2010)

oaktree said:


> He claims to teach Dao yin. I do not doubt Dao yin exists I am skeptic of people knowing it. What I mean is Dao Yin is kinda of dead or merged with what we know is Qigong. So using the word Dao yin is using an archaic termology there are other words that were used to describe Qigong such as Tu na which is archaic too.


 
Yup... Daoyin = Qigong and Qigong was Daoyin up until the late 50s or early 60s. But with that said, I seem to remember reading about an old form of Qigong/Daoyin called Wuji Daoyin someplace, but I do not know where I read it so at this point just take that as hear say. I do know there is a stance in Xingyiquan and Taijiquan that is trained called Wuji but again it is not Wujiquan


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## IrishMonk (Sep 9, 2010)

Well, thanks guys. I appricate the info. 
There is another school not too far from this one, http://www.jkwongkungfutaichi.com/

They teach Wu/Hao Tai Chi which is harder to come by than say Yang... truthfully I know next to nothing about tai chi at all, but even less on this style. I did read somewhere that it is similar in some aspects as Wing Chun...( not my observation ). If so, that may mesh well with my WC background. 

Any thoughts on this ? Thanksfor the help all....


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## oaktree (Sep 9, 2010)

To add somethings from Plum Pub
http://plumpub.com/sales/vcd4/coll_taoistboxing2.htm



> Wu Ji is a style based on the concept that from "Nothingness Everything came". Developed over 800 years ago during the Sung Dynasty (one of the great martial periods) it was developed according to the Taoist science of the time: Xing Li. It consists of health, self defense and weapons work, with movements related to the meridians as in Chinese medicine.
> Wu Dang San Feng demonstated by Liu Huan Jun, 24 inheritor of the style.
> Wu Ji style is demonstrated by Wang Jun Yan, 6th generation inheritor of Wu Ji Quan.
> Also the ZongDao school of Taoism​



but Sung(Song) is nowhere near Han dynasty as Wujidao thinks.
I trust Plum over Wujido but at least there is a legit(well legit as far as Plum goes. 1.there is a guy who claims 6th generation so it might not be to hard to trace. 2. According to Plum in the vcd's it comes from Wudang branch and Wang has ties to ZongDao school.

Anyway you can research it more or I will if I have time.​


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## clfsean (Sep 9, 2010)

IrishMonk said:


> Well, thanks guys. I appricate the info.
> There is another school not too far from this one, http://www.jkwongkungfutaichi.com/
> 
> They teach Wu/Hao Tai Chi which is harder to come by than say Yang... truthfully I know next to nothing about tai chi at all, but even less on this style. I did read somewhere that it is similar in some aspects as Wing Chun...( not my observation ). If so, that may mesh well with my WC background.
> ...



Good stuff... Wu (Hao) Taiji... it's a small frame compared to Yang or especially Chen, but JK Wong is an accomplished teacher & knows his stuff.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 9, 2010)

IrishMonk said:


> Well, thanks guys. I appricate the info.
> There is another school not too far from this one, http://www.jkwongkungfutaichi.com/
> 
> They teach Wu/Hao Tai Chi which is harder to come by than say Yang... truthfully I know next to nothing about tai chi at all, but even less on this style. I did read somewhere that it is similar in some aspects as Wing Chun...( not my observation ). If so, that may mesh well with my WC background.
> ...


 
There is Wu style that is divided into Nothern and Southern and there is a Wu/Hao style and form what I read this is Wu/Hao. Wu/Hao is a combination of Chen and Yang and from what I can tell it is a nice combination. My flavor of Yang style has a fast set that is a combination of Yang and Hao and it is very heavy on Qinna.

Also it appears the teacher Jimmy Wong is out of Jingwu (Chin woo) and this could be a real good thing if he has stayed close to what he learned at Jingwu.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 9, 2010)

oaktree said:


> To add somethings from Plum Pub
> http://plumpub.com/sales/vcd4/coll_taoistboxing2.htm
> 
> 
> ...


 
I like Plum Pub and I have bought a few books from them and I would recommend them but they have had a few DVDs on there that were...well...questionable (see my first sifu) and a few that were being marketed as ancient forms that were more like new contemporary Wushu forms based on old movies


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## oaktree (Sep 9, 2010)

> I like Plum Pub and I have bought a few books from them and I would recommend them but they have had a few DVDs on there that were...well...questionable (see my first sifu) and a few that were being marketed as ancient forms that were more like new contemporary Wushu forms based on old movies


Because you bought the DVD's.The VCD's have "TH3 D3ADLY" 
I agree though some things I see on Plum have me wondering how legit it is. Such as http://plumpub.com/sales/vcd/coll_secrettaoist.htm
and http://plumpub.com/sales/vcd2/coll_wutangnight.htm
I am not well versed enough in Wudang to know how legit it is.
However there may be a day where I am and can speak about it.

By the way slightly off topic Wudang's site(well one of them  boasts you can learn their San Feng 13 Taijiquan routine in a week no wonder you see it so much around) 

Irish Monk Wo/Hao is cool I think its much better than Wujido(stupid name)


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 10, 2010)

oaktree said:


> Because you bought the DVD's.The VCD's have "TH3 D3ADLY"
> I agree though some things I see on Plum have me wondering how legit it is. Such as http://plumpub.com/sales/vcd/coll_secrettaoist.htm
> and http://plumpub.com/sales/vcd2/coll_wutangnight.htm
> I am not well versed enough in Wudang to know how legit it is.
> ...


 
Have you SEEN the TH3 D3ADLY VCDs.. They are sooooo cool.. and deadly too 

Actually they seem to be the only place I can find the Xingyiquan books I want that are written by the old Xingyiquan guys... the ones that could still fight :EG: Although the books by Di Guoyong are very good as well, particularly for a western reader and you can't get that there, or at least you couldn't last I checked.


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