# Almost an incident yesterday!



## Corporal Hicks (May 2, 2005)

Ah, I thought I would share this with you, even though its part of my totally uninteresting life, but it made me go into the adrenline rush mode etc. Well we went out for a night, two girls, 4 guys, two of them, myself and another friend are martial artists, he didnt drink anything, and I did.

Well anyway we were coming out the kebab shop (yeah kebabs) and I had noticed earlier that two guys (both with bad reputations in this town, i.e. they pick fights, steal and turn up in court at least every month for something) were waiting outside. So we walked out, and I heard them say something to my other friend (the MA) and they started hurling abuse as we walked away. We got half way up the road and I turned around, slightly drunk, to see both of the guys strutting up the street towards us, then suddenly I start bricking it and tell everybody to cross the road and move towards the town centre. Suddenly this ball shaped brick thing just misses one of my friends and then another misses us again and bounces into a shop window. I didnt look to see if it had broken just got everybody away as far as possible. 

Now I'm thinking, what the hell would I have done if they had continued to follow us? What if that stone had hit one of us? I really dont think the police would be there in time to stop them getting to us. I had the number dialled ready in my phone incase they continued, but still I was pretty drunk and it shook the hell out of me. Now's the worst part, I see the worst of the two almost every day as I walk home from college, and he's always coming the other way, he's never paid any attention before, but now I have no idea what might happen. The other guy I see also and was friends with him, now I dont know what to think!

What could I do, what if they continued to follow us etc etc

Kind Regards


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## bushi jon (May 2, 2005)

You are a better person than myself thier first brick would have also been their last. Rem cowards travel in pairs so if one of them is alone chances are they will not be messing with you.


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## Bammx2 (May 2, 2005)

Most common answer: run.

we ALL know that one.

Now...to reality,
In some casses,you ain't gonna get that chance or you will get caught one day.

As far as thier courtroom adventures....that could be an advantage for you.

IF the time arises..
I quote Geoff Thompson of the BCA...
"Hit fast,hit hard and keep hitting" ( repeat if needed)

Police and the courts are less likely to bring charges against you for defending yourself(even using a pre-emptive strike) against "career criminals", especially those with a violent background.

It may work for you,it may not.
But somebody WILL have to make a stand eventually.


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## rmcpeek (May 2, 2005)

The best advice I can give is to try your best to avoid them. If you see one daily, cross the street, there's no shame in avoiding them.

Unfortunately, this doesn't always work and if confronted, stay cool, stay calm, and then if there is no other alternative, and they attempt to harm you, then and only then "take care of business". 

Being in the condition you were in after a night out with your friends, you probably made the right descision by leaving. Be prepared at places you might see them, and don't ever let your guard down around them.


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## lonekimono10 (May 2, 2005)

you know i had something like this happen to me a long time ago,but not with the bricks, anyway i don't like to fight(i really don't) long story short
 this guy got in my face (two of them) and after the 1st one grab me and pushed me and them he was telling me what he was going to do to me,thats when i said to myself NOW i put my finger in his eye(with brace) and when it came out the guy grabed his face and started yelling for his mother(????)
 anyway the other one, nothing happen he just put his hands up and left with his friend,(old kenpo saying "man can't hit you if man can't see you"
 anyway one more thing, all this time that this was happening i said not one word to any of them,(i just look at them I'm like that) but you did the right thing
   but if it happens again and you have no ave. of ecape  AX KICK HIM:idunno:


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## Zepp (May 2, 2005)

You did the right thing on that night, no doubt there.  If one of those guys causes trouble for you later on, and you're forced to hurt them, remember that your friends can testify about their earlier attack against you.



> What if that stone had hit one of us?


Have you had any first aid training?  It makes that question slightly easier to answer.  You would have had to quickly assess whether it was more important to help your hurt friend (or yourself), or stop the threat first.  Some first aid training might help you make that decision more quickly if you ever have to.

Glad you and your friends are ok.


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## searcher (May 2, 2005)

You have had some very good advice so far.  I must say that you did do the right thing by not attempting to defend in the condition you were in and your friend, no matter how good he is, was still outnumbered.   If you see them just try and be cool about it, act as though you don't remember the incident.

If you are in a situation where you need to defend yourself or others from the two individuals in question, you will need to make the decision.   Will it be you or them that will walk away.   Since you know them you need to decide which is the easier of the two and put that one between you and the other.   You are going to have to make body parts become non-functional, ie. break bones, tear tendons or ligaments, or even kill one of them.   This will be a decision you will have to make on the fly, depanding on circumstances.    Just remember to stay calm and don't leave after the fact, it makes you look like you did something wrong.    If you defend and you are intoxicated you will most likely be looking at some jail time.   That is almost a given.    Be prepared and make good decisions.   You will be alright.


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## Ceicei (May 2, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> this guy got in my face (two of them) and after the 1st one grab me and pushed me and them he was telling me what he was going to do to me,thats when i said to myself NOW i put my finger in his eye(with brace) and when it came out the guy grabed his face and started yelling for his mother(????)
> anyway the other one, nothing happen he just put his hands up and left with his friend,(old kenpo saying "man can't hit you if man can't see you"


  Just out of curiosity, did the guy lose his eye?

  - Ceicei


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## arnisador (May 2, 2005)

Get out, call the police, let people with guns and German shephards handle it.


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## Corporal Hicks (May 3, 2005)

Zepp said:
			
		

> You did the right thing on that night, no doubt there. If one of those guys causes trouble for you later on, and you're forced to hurt them, remember that your friends can testify about their earlier attack against you.
> 
> 
> Have you had any first aid training? It makes that question slightly easier to answer. You would have had to quickly assess whether it was more important to help your hurt friend (or yourself), or stop the threat first. Some first aid training might help you make that decision more quickly if you ever have to.
> ...


Cheers, and yes three of us have had first aid training so unless; 
A) it was a case of too many cooks spoil the brew or 
B) they killed three birds with one stone (but with throws like that I doubt it lol!)

then I think we would have been ok on that point.

One reason I going to be a police officer is that I dont like the idea of people being openly or making a point of openly terrorising other people, generally those who are innocent (not underage, honest!). 

Regards


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## Bammx2 (May 3, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Get out, call the police, let people with guns and German shephards handle it.


Sound advice.

the only problem......
the police wouldn't do anything but say "walk away"....and THEY would and there are no german shepards.
Not to mention this is the ONLY law enforcement community in the WORLD who doesn't carry guns.

This is a totally different world compared with the US.

Like I said....I agree with you 100%!
But US realism is different from UK realism.


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## Corporal Hicks (May 3, 2005)

Depends to what extent that you mean UK police dont carry guns? There are always police patrols that have armed respone capibilities within areas nowadays. 

If you mean that police dont openly carry weapons then yes thats correct. But even with that incident I consider that a good thing. If you openly show police carrying weapons, levels then the sociality factors seem to shoot up a level and you get alot of people stating that if police can have them, then ordinary folks should to, or that openly carrying weapons is unacceptable.

Still even after this incident, it would have been nice to know that some cops were on their way and could have resolved the situation had it got nasty! Something some countries dont have I guess!!!

Kind Regards


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## Bammx2 (May 3, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> Depends to what extent that you mean UK police dont carry guns? There are always police patrols that have armed respone capibilities within areas nowadays.
> 
> If you mean that police dont openly carry weapons then yes thats correct. But even with that incident I consider that a good thing. If you openly show police carrying weapons, levels then the sociality factors seem to shoot up a level and you get alot of people stating that if police can have them, then ordinary folks should to, or that openly carrying weapons is unacceptable.
> 
> ...


Not gonna get side tracked here.I hear ya dude. I know exactly where you're commin from.
 But I totally disagree with the "well if they can have them...everyone should them".
 I do come from a major gun culture and a gun family.
But I don't believe the public should be armed because the police are...I only believe that because the criminals are.
 Yes,there are armed response units here,but you have to wait til they get there....then its too late.
 I do support the police though.It takes guts or insanity to be a street cop here!
Especially knowing assaults on police have risen 300% here in the last 2 years.
Damn....changed subjects anyway!:erg:


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## Gemini (May 3, 2005)

You did the right thing by walking away. "Beer muscles" and fighting don't mix well.

Going forward. hmm. There's an old saying "know the devil you're dealing with". This guy has left you alone in the past. The other guy was actually friendly to you. Together, they start trouble. In my mind, that makes them everday punks. Plain and simple. *rmcpeek* said to avoid them if at all possible and I would agree with him. But at the same time, I would assume any encounter you will have with them from now on won't be a pleasant one. I know that may seem obvious but often it isn't. Punks are often only aggressive in groups. I don't think when alone, any of them will bother you, but I would keep my guard up and avoid them as much as possible anyway. If a confrontation is necessary, the message you need to send is: You picked the wrong guy. The clearer you make the message, the more likely it will be that they remember it. Nothing is carved in stone, but punks generally don't retaliate later. They prefer picking on weaker people.


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## Corporal Hicks (May 3, 2005)

Bammx2 said:
			
		

> Not gonna get side tracked here.I hear ya dude. I know exactly where you're commin from.
> But I totally disagree with the "well if they can have them...everyone should them".
> I do come from a major gun culture and a gun family.
> But I don't believe the public should be armed because the police are...I only believe that because the criminals are.
> ...


Yeah sorry I miss worded that! What I meant is that criminals are armed already and so are certain numbers of police response units. 
The fact is that the public dont seem to think that criminals are armed because they dont see the police armed either making the connection that because the police are not, the criminals are not. And in essence I'm sure the public actually believe this.

I think I know what I'm saying lol, maybe I'm wrong! I didnt mean to say that I think that because police have them then the public should. I'm actually against that as the majority of people do not know how to handle, use or cope with firearms. Ah off topic! opps

I'm not having a go, cheers for the reply!

Regards


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## MattJD (May 3, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> Ah, I thought I would share this with you, even though its part of my totally uninteresting life, but it made me go into the adrenline rush mode etc. Well we went out for a night, two girls, 4 guys, two of them, myself and another friend are martial artists, he didnt drink anything, and I did.
> 
> Well anyway we were coming out the kebab shop (yeah kebabs) and I had noticed earlier that two guys (both with bad reputations in this town, i.e. they pick fights, steal and turn up in court at least every month for something) were waiting outside. So we walked out, and I heard them say something to my other friend (the MA) and they started hurling abuse as we walked away. We got half way up the road and I turned around, slightly drunk, to see both of the guys strutting up the street towards us, then suddenly I start bricking it and tell everybody to cross the road and move towards the town centre. Suddenly this ball shaped brick thing just misses one of my friends and then another misses us again and bounces into a shop window. I didnt look to see if it had broken just got everybody away as far as possible.
> 
> ...




Well if you want to stay legal you could buy one of those stun guns that emit 900,000 volts into the attacker that will have him on the ground for 10 minutes before the attacker fully recuperates. No injuries to the attacker afterwards. BUT, since you see them often I would try to be friendly with the person(s). Don't try to avoid them because the'll notice and then come looking for you. Next time you see them just act normal like you don't even care if there there. Or if you walk past them just say hi and be on your way. If you be friendly with them and don't act nervous as you pass them then they won't bother you. As you walk past them make sure you keep your head up. By saying hello to them it'll make you "cool" with them. All I'm saying is that it's better to be friendly with those kind of people than make them your enimies.

Matt


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## Bammx2 (May 4, 2005)

MattJD said:
			
		

> Well if you want to stay legal you could buy one of those stun guns that emit 900,000 volts into the attacker that will have him on the ground for 10 minutes before the attacker fully recuperates. No injuries to the attacker afterwards. BUT, since you see them often I would try to be friendly with the person(s). Don't try to avoid them because the'll notice and then come looking for you. Next time you see them just act normal like you don't even care if there there. Or if you walk past them just say hi and be on your way. If you be friendly with them and don't act nervous as you pass them then they won't bother you. As you walk past them make sure you keep your head up. By saying hello to them it'll make you "cool" with them. All I'm saying is that it's better to be friendly with those kind of people than make them your enimies.
> 
> Matt


nice advice......but if you are possesion of a stun gun here in the UK,where the incident took place,you will be charged with carrying a firearm.
Stun guns,pepper spray,ASP batons.............ANYTHING you can think of that you could carry fro self-defense is outlawed here.
 They're scared you'll hurt the police.
The rest of the post isn't too bad though.


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## sgtmac_46 (May 4, 2005)

Bammx2 said:
			
		

> nice advice......but if you are possesion of a stun gun here in the UK,where the incident took place,you will be charged with carrying a firearm.
> Stun guns,pepper spray,ASP batons.............ANYTHING you can think of that you could carry fro self-defense is outlawed here.
> They're scared you'll hurt the police.
> The rest of the post isn't too bad though.


Further, stun guns are both overrated AND misunderstood. A stun gun, in contrast to a Taser, must make contact with the assailant. Further, contrary to popular opinion, they do not incapacitate someone instantly or for very long. A stun gun must be used aggressively, and then with the understanding that a focused or pain resistant individual can fight through the effects. As someone who has not only been hit numerous times with all manner of stun guns, but have also been hit several times with M-26 and X-26 tasers, I know of what I speak. I know it's off topic, but if you have a stun gun for self defense, understand how it is meant to be applied. It is best used against pressure points and nerve junctions. In a fight, one should strike for the nerve sheet at the side of the neck or the testicles, and aggressively pursue the attacker until they are incapacitated.

As for dealing with these punks following Hicks, first thing I would do is file a report with the police department. I know, I know, it won't do any good. But you want to start a paper trail. You want to show a pattern of behavior on their part so if you have to defend yourself, you can show that you made an attempt to have the situation dealt with legally. If you do end up in legal hot water, you and your attorney can show that you filed a police report against these two folks before and that the behavior that lead up to you defending yourself was ongoing and that you did your best to avoid it.

As far as weapons being illegal, consider this. You don't have to have a weapon that's labeled "Weapon". I used to carry a pair of spare heavy socks in my coat pocket (nothing illegal there). In the other coat pocket I carried a master lock (again, nothing illegal there). Now, put the two together, and you have an extremely formidable weapon in the right hands. Neither of these will get you hardly a second glance from a police officer, and they all have the simplest explainations. If you feel the master lock is too conspicuous, exchange it for a bar of soap, a roll or two of quarters or other change, the list is endless.  Sadly, there are parts of the world where the average citizen is prevented from defending himself from criminals by normal means.  Extra-normal means sometimes must be applied.


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## lonekimono10 (May 4, 2005)

look don't worry about these guys,us guys up here in New Jersey ,you know what we say about this,,," *forgetaboutit"
 until next time*:supcool:


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## Bod (May 9, 2005)

I absolutely agree with SgtMac here. Report the incident to the police.

Next time he aproaches you in this way, you will be legally entitled to a pre-emptive strike. This is because if you reasonably believe that someone is about to strike you then you may take action under the UK self defence laws. (Don't take my word on this. Look it up in something like the Police Law Primer. It's always best to know first hand.)

Of course, you have to prove that you have reason to believe he will strike you. That paper trail will back you up, and make life so much easier. Also this guy may just walk away when he realises you wish to operate inside the law. It happens more often than you think. If he still comes after you then the pre-emptive strike will surprise him. After you've hit him go to the police with whatever you've got there (such as any threats he shouts, etc.). I don't like the idea of pr-emptive striking but if the guy has thrown rocks against you it is not really pre-emptive at all to hit him before he has a chance to hit you.

Second check the shop window. If it is broken go into the shop and ask the manager if he has reported it to the police, which he may have done for insurance purposes. Add your information once you've got the crime report number.

Don't forget this kid may have an ASBO out against him, or your information may add to the granting of that ASBO. This may take him off the streets for a while if he defies it.

Remember the UK police can be a pain  for the public to deal with. This is mostly down to a difficult to use computer system and a shift system which means it is often hard to get hold of the relevant person twice. Keep your crime report number handy, and be patient yet persistent. If the phone operator is not being helpful call back later.

I once reported a stolen bike. Of course all the police could reasonably do was record the event. Six months later when I saw my bike chained to some railings I was very glad I'd gone to the trouble of making that report, as it enabled me to get my bike back eventually. So it's worth it just making the complaint.


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## Corporal Hicks (May 10, 2005)

Bod said:
			
		

> I absolutely agree with SgtMac here. Report the incident to the police.
> 
> Next time he aproaches you in this way, you will be legally entitled to a pre-emptive strike. This is because if you reasonably believe that someone is about to strike you then you may take action under the UK self defence laws. (Don't take my word on this. Look it up in something like the Police Law Primer. It's always best to know first hand.)
> 
> ...


The person in question, has plently of ASBO's against him. He's got a nice long criminal record. I would report him as you say, however that would show I would have been breaking the law as well as I'm about 3 weeks underage of being 18 (legal drinking law). Not only that there were three other underage people with us so we could get rather stuck on the legal front. 
Mmmmm, we were not making any trouble so in essence we are the victims of a unprovoked attack and cannot really use the police to help us. Makes you think really! :whip:


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## Bod (May 10, 2005)

This illustrates the universal rule that bad people tend to attack people who are outside the law.

Once you get perceived as inside the law this sort of thing just fizzles out.


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## sgtmac_46 (May 10, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> The person in question, has plently of ASBO's against him. He's got a nice long criminal record. I would report him as you say, however that would show I would have been breaking the law as well as I'm about 3 weeks underage of being 18 (legal drinking law). Not only that there were three other underage people with us so we could get rather stuck on the legal front.
> Mmmmm, we were not making any trouble so in essence we are the victims of a unprovoked attack and cannot really use the police to help us. Makes you think really! :whip:


What does your drinking have to do with the incident. It did not happen in a bar. Really, there is no reason to even discuss the drinking with the police, as the incident occurred on a public street and had no direct connection to drinking. To borrow a term from the common lexicon, "Don't ask, don't tell".


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## Corporal Hicks (May 10, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> What does your drinking have to do with the incident. It did not happen in a bar. Really, there is no reason to even discuss the drinking with the police, as the incident occurred on a public street and had no direct connection to drinking. To borrow a term from the common lexicon, "Don't ask, don't tell".


The only thing being that the person taking the notes could simply say, "ok son, what were you doing out at that time of night?". I could simply say that I was out having a good time with a couple of friends sure, but the fact they are going to check my details if I do lodge a form could mean that somebody could simply turn around and say 
"Well, you were under the influence of drink, how do we know that you did not start this whole thing off, not only that what were you out drinking underage anyway?"

Would not be so bad if I didnt want to be a Police officer myself, but I've got 4 months before I go to university to study "policing", dont want to ruin those chances.

Regards


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