# ATF Seizes 30 Toy Guns, Says "They Can Be Converted Into Machine Guns"



## Gordon Nore (Mar 3, 2010)

I thought about putting this in The Firing Range, Horror Stories, or even the Comedy section, but, heck, I'll drop it here for now.

DHS loses guns. Now ATF is confiscating AirSoft guns. Sounds like the agents confiscated a bunch of alcohol before they confiscated these guns.


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## Dave Leverich (Mar 3, 2010)

Holy crap, and they're standing behind it so they try to not look like complete morons... Whew. Look out for those 6mm full-auto plastic sprayers guys. What idiots.


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## Scott T (Mar 4, 2010)

In their partial defence (and I can't believe I just wrote that on this topic!!!) airsoft guns also come in solid steel bodies perfectly replicating the look and feel of their real counterpart.

However, these are toys and cannot be converted into real machine guns. Whichever ATF agent made that decision and claim really has to get off the heroin.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 4, 2010)

Looks like some gun grabber got a little trigger happy.  LOL!


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## xJOHNx (Mar 4, 2010)

ATF seems to be a society for improvising stand up comedians


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## LuckyKBoxer (Mar 4, 2010)

Can you think of a better marketing tool though?
I mean seriously how many people have thought about an airsoft gun and then passed it off as a fad.... now how many people are going to look futher into them since they supposedly can be converted to a machine gun? LOL

I have been toying with buying a nice airsoft gun for a while...I think I need to go back and relook at it now... thanks ATF for reigniting my interest..


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 4, 2010)

I find this case interesting for another reason that has nothing to do with the potential lethality of the Airsoft. One of the more interesting arguments that I've hear from Americans who oppose gun control is the question of property rights, not just firearms. Here we have a gov't agency that declares it can seize private property -- these 'guns' were the property of the dealer who ordered them -- on the grounds they might pose a threat to safety.


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## Big Don (Mar 4, 2010)

Sure they can! You only need a barrel, a chamber, a bolt, a firing pin, a magazine a receiver, and a few dozen other things. Throw all that crap together, instant machine gun!


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## d1jinx (Mar 4, 2010)

Did any of you catch the jerkoff agent trying to install the clip BACKWARDS?

oh.... he knows firearms alright.


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## Grenadier (Mar 8, 2010)

To take the time to convert an Airsoft gun into one that can shoot live ammo in full auto mode would require a boatload of effort; certainly more than what the ATF agent asserted.  

As Big Don stated, the modifications would take a good bit of precision instrumentation, since you're trying to modify a non-usable receiver, and would have to put in a new trigger assembly, hammer action, firing pin, etc.  By the time all is said and done, someone could have easily bought a real firearm.  

Besides, it would be much easier for anyone with a milling machine and a modicum of skill, to manufacture their own STEN submachine gun receivers, and put together their own.  The British were doing this quite successfully, under decrepit working conditions, during World War II, and made functional STEN submachine guns this way.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 8, 2010)

paintball gun
+ ramp up the power
+ metal ball bearing
= lethal


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## Flea (Mar 8, 2010)

Maybe someone in that ATF office has a third cousin who works for an Airsoft manufacturer in the US?


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## teekin (Mar 11, 2010)

Big Don said:


> Sure they can! You only need a barrel, a chamber, a bolt, a firing pin, a magazine a receiver, and a few dozen other things. Throw all that crap together, instant machine gun!


 
Yup, you only need to change out Everything, and be a smitty to have a weapon that will fire live ammo. Or you could just buy a real gun. Huh? Wonder which is cheaper?:idea:

Lori


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## Big Don (Mar 12, 2010)

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/agents...odging-all-questions-about-toy-guns-part-iii/

And the CBP website seems to confirm that Airsoft guns do not have to have orange tips:
Air soft, paintball, bb guns, and other guns that use a gas or air pellet or mechanical spring action to fire a projectile are not subject to Department of Commerce regulations for toy or imitation firearms that require bright orange plugs or other markers to be affixed to the end of the barrel (15 CFR 1150).​ 15 CFR 1150.1 specifically exempts &#8220;traditional B-B, paint-ball, or pellet-firing air guns that expel a projectile through the force of compressed air, compressed gas or mechanical spring action, or any combination thereof,&#8221; which would seem to mean the justification for Customs seizure of this shipment is based upon ignorance of the very regulations they are meant to enforce.
 Of course, the laziness, ignorance, and inconsistency of the CBP is only part of the problem.


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## Deaf Smith (Mar 12, 2010)

You guys ever here of 'constructive possession'? The ATF uses that to say if you have the components of a illegal weapon, then you de-facto have an illegal weapon.

So say, how many of you have a glass bottle, gasoline for the lawn mower, and some cloth to make a wick?

Know what that makes?

Deaf


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## Big Don (Mar 12, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> So say, how many of you have a glass bottle, gasoline for the lawn mower, and some cloth to make a wick?
> 
> Know what that makes?
> 
> Deaf


Add a few beers and it could be an entertaining evening


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## Deaf Smith (Mar 14, 2010)

Big Don said:


> Add a few beers and it could be an entertaining evening


 

Well speaking of that...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100312/ap_on_re_us/us_mailbox_explosives

"A fourth device was found March 5 in a mailbox in the main post office in Kilgore, city police Lt. Roman Roberson told The Associated Press. He said it was a beer bottle that contained an unidentified flammable liquid and a wick. He said the top of the bottle was wrapped in paper that had writing on it, but that he didn't know what was written."

And the ATF are hot on the trail of whomever is doing this. But any and all of the ingredients can be found in your home including the beer (well at least most of our homes!)

Deaf


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## fireman00 (May 15, 2010)

A follow up, looks like all  you need is a receiver to turn an air gun into either a full auto or semi automatic rifle:

"... Gonnuscio said he was surprised to find that he was able to to transform  this particular <air> gun to the real thing  -- and with &#8220;minimal work,&#8221;  because its bottom half, or &#8220;receiver,&#8221; is so similar to an AR-15's." 

... "and once that's out of the way, the rest is even easier. The AR-15  receiver is the only part of the semi-automatic rifle that is given a  serial number, and is the only part that is regulated. All the remaining  parts of the real thing can be purchased by anyone &#8211; any kid, criminal  or terrorist."

Link to the article: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/0...old-easily-turned-real-thing/?test=latestnews

Kind of a scary thought.


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## Blade96 (May 15, 2010)

Gordon Nore said:


> I thought about putting this in The Firing Range, Horror Stories, or even the Comedy section, but, heck, I'll drop it here for now.
> 
> DHS loses guns. Now ATF is confiscating AirSoft guns. Sounds like the agents confiscated a bunch of alcohol before they confiscated these guns.



Confiscated it....YOu forgot to mention they no doubt drank that bunch of alcohol.

How else to explain that WTF moment when they got those toy guns.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (May 15, 2010)

This is a little different then turning an airsoft gun into a real rifle.  Hell, I could take some steel pipe, gunpowder, and lead shot, all perfectly legal items to purchase, and make a bazooka.


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## Grenadier (May 15, 2010)

fireman00 said:


> A follow up, looks like all you need is a receiver to turn an air gun into either a full auto or semi automatic rifle:
> 
> "... Gonnuscio said he was surprised to find that he was able to to transform this particular <air> gun to the real thing -- and with minimal work, because its bottom half, or receiver, is so similar to an AR-15's."
> 
> ... "and once that's out of the way, the rest is even easier. The AR-15 receiver is the only part of the semi-automatic rifle that is given a serial number, and is the only part that is regulated. All the remaining parts of the real thing can be purchased by anyone  any kid, criminal or terrorist."


 
This is once again, nothing more than aggrandizement.  Even if you could manufacture such a thing from an Airsoft receiver, you're going to end up with an unreliable firearm that has minimal durability, at best.  If someone's going to go through that much trouble to assemble a laughable quality AR-15, he would have much more success simply going through the black market, and buying an illegal firearm instead.  

If it really were that easy and as deadly as all of these silly news articles claimed, then why aren't criminals doing it en masse?   

On another note, with a milling machine, and even a basic level of skill in operating such a machine, it would simply be easier to manufacture your own STEN submachine gun receivers...  Much more reliable and durable.


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## fireman00 (May 15, 2010)

How sophisticated are terrorists? Propane tanks, some fertilizer, gasoline, firecrackers and an alarm clock is all it took to come close to killing and/ or maiming hundreds in Times Square. 

How long would a terrorist need such a weapon? I dunno, how many folks could a person kill in one minute on full auto at Grand Central Station during rush hour? 

How 'bout Columbine II? Klebod fired 67 and Harris fired 121.  How easy would it be for some screwed up, upper middle class kid to buy the parts and walk the halls firing shots in semi? 

Its not a question of if, its a question of when the next terrorist incident occurs.  A simple modification to this one model air gun and its a non-issue.  If the manufacturer refuses, take this model off the market and confiscate this model when found. 

If we as a society don't' take precautions, especially with something this easy to resolve we're just as guilty as the gunman/ men.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (May 15, 2010)

Grenadier said:


> This is once again, nothing more than aggrandizement. Even if you could manufacture such a thing from an Airsoft receiver, you're going to end up with an unreliable firearm that has minimal durability, at best. If someone's going to go through that much trouble to assemble a laughable quality AR-15, he would have much more success simply going through the black market, and buying an illegal firearm instead.
> 
> If it really were that easy and as deadly as all of these silly news articles claimed, then why aren't criminals doing it en masse?
> 
> On another note, with a milling machine, and even a basic level of skill in operating such a machine, it would simply be easier to manufacture your own STEN submachine gun receivers... Much more reliable and durable.


 
Its my understanding that during the Soviet invasion of Afganistan that the Mujahadeen were making their own AK-47s in the middle of the desert.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (May 15, 2010)

fireman00 said:


> How sophisticated are terrorists? Propane tanks, some fertilizer, gasoline, firecrackers and an alarm clock is all it took to come close to killing and/ or maiming hundreds in Times Square.
> 
> How long would a terrorist need such a weapon? I dunno, how many folks could a person kill in one minute on full auto at Grand Central Station during rush hour?
> 
> ...


 
No, no were not.


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## Cryozombie (May 16, 2010)

fireman00 said:


> How sophisticated are terrorists? Propane tanks, some fertilizer, gasoline, firecrackers and an alarm clock is all it took to come close to killing and/ or maiming hundreds in Times Square.
> 
> How long would a terrorist need such a weapon? I dunno, how many folks could a person kill in one minute on full auto at Grand Central Station during rush hour?
> 
> ...



Where does it stop? FWIW someone can build a flamethrower out of plumbing supplies from Home Depot, and kill or horribly maim just as many people in one minute as some untrained kid with a "homemade" AR.  Should we ban Plumbing supplies?  You can build a pneumatic Shotgun the same way.  A mortar capable serious damage to a building from things available at Tractor Supply/Farm & Fleet, and a 3 pack of Car bombs from a common toy at TOYS R US for around 10 bucks.  The info on how to do a lot of this is on the web or in bookstores... 

If you start discovering all the ways someone MIGHT go on a killing spree, you might as well give it all up my man.


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## Grenadier (May 16, 2010)

Cryozombie already summarized things quite nicely, so I'll just toss on a topping here.  



fireman00 said:


> How 'bout Columbine II? Klebod fired 67 and Harris fired 121.  How easy would it be for some screwed up, upper middle class kid to buy the parts and walk the halls firing shots in semi?



The only problem is, that they didn't.  They had an older girl illegally procure working firearms for them, via straw purchasing. 

You can make all of the laws forbidding toy guns, but regardless of what laws are in place, criminals aren't going to have too much trouble finding actual, working firearms.  

On another note, you do realize, that they had rigged up dozens of propane cylinders with boxes of nails taped to them, in the cafeteria, and that they were also tossing home-made pipe bombs?  



> Its not a question of if, its a question of when the next terrorist incident occurs.  A simple modification to this one model air gun and its a non-issue.  If the manufacturer refuses, take this model off the market and confiscate this model when found.



If you did this, then you would have to forbid just about any kind of company from selling their products.  After all, I could easily make excellent quality garrottes out of cello strings sold from the Shar Music catalogs.  I could also manufacture Molotov cocktails from a glass carbonated beverage bottle, some gasoline, diesel, and a rag.  

For that matter, I could easily manufacture a hand cannon out of metal pipe, metal pipe joints, epoxy, and a couple of easily available materials.  

The only thing is, though, that as a law-abiding citizen, I don't perform such actions, even though anyone is quite capable of doing so.  It comes down to the individual's morality, and his sense of right and wrong.  If I did use any of the above methods to commit crimes, it's not the fault of the Coca Cola company, the Shar Music company (or the Eudoxa Pistrasso string company), etc.  It would be my fault, and mine alone.  



> If we as a society don't' take precautions, especially with something this easy to resolve we're just as guilty as the gunman/ men.



If that were the case, then should the oil and fertilizer companies be held responsible for the murderous actions of Timothy McVeigh?  Should the masses of massively obese people be able to hold the ice cream companies responsible for their bad dietary habits?  

In the end, it's a personal responsibility.


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## Grenadier (May 16, 2010)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> Its my understanding that during the Soviet invasion of Afganistan that the Mujahadeen were making their own AK-47s in the middle of the desert.



Indeed.  It doesn't take any great resources to manufacture your own receivers.  After all, the British were manufacturing plenty of receivers during WW II in decrepit conditions and using barely adequate tools, thanks to the German Luftwaffe's continual bombing of England, and managed to make perfectly good weapons.


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## fireman00 (May 16, 2010)

Thank you - My point exactly, anyone (underage teen or illegal alien) could purchase the receiver online and allow the user to make a machine gun without depending on a legal adult to make the purchase for them. 

On top of anyone being able to purchase the parts online, once put together there is NO WAY TO TRACE IT BACK TO ANYONE.  The trail ends  with the manufacturer of the receiver.

Also, FBI, CIA, NYPD were able to arrest 3 additional participants of  the Times Square bombing because they were able to trace the parts and  the purchases.  Not so in the case of this weapon.  

And I am no condoning making all airsofts illegal, only this model which needs ONE HOLE DRILLED and a receiver to make it a functional machine gun. 

Garrotte? so you might be able to kill one person, HUGE difference between being able to stand in a rush hour crowd, weekend mall crowd, holiday mob at train station and knock off dozens/ hundreds so your comparison isn't really on target.

As far as oil companies be held for how their product is used? Google "product liability".  The answer would be a resounding YES, IF a company knew that their weapon could be easily be turned into a weapon.


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## Cryozombie (May 16, 2010)

fireman00 said:


> only this model which needs ONE HOLE DRILLED and a receiver to make it a functional machine gun.



Lemme correct that for you ok?



> only this model which needs ONE HOLE DRILLED and about 500.00 to 700.00 dollars in additional parts to make it a functional machine gun, as well as the ammo and magazines to make it live.



It takes more than an Upper receiver, you need a complete upper parts kit or completed upper, and those are not cheap.  

And again, You could convert a 250.00 target rifle to a full auto "machine gun"  with an O ring and a Shoelace... Why aren't you speaking out against this cheap and easy alternative instead?  Because there is a paper trail to the original firearm?  Assuming it was purchased legally and not stolen, borrowed or obtained by the aforementioned illegals before they entered this country perhaps.


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## elder999 (May 16, 2010)

It's all very silly. A trip to the hardware store and-well, let's just say _another_ store-would give one all one needed for massively destructive explosives,and chemical weapons: mustard gas and nerve agents. All legal, all uncontrolled, all_ relatively_ easy to manufacture in the kitchen.


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## Grenadier (May 17, 2010)

fireman00 said:


> Thank you - My point exactly, anyone (underage teen or illegal alien) could purchase the receiver online and allow the user to make a machine gun without depending on a legal adult to make the purchase for them.


 
Then why aren't they doing this?  You still haven't answered that question.  



> On top of anyone being able to purchase the parts online, once put together there is NO WAY TO TRACE IT BACK TO ANYONE. The trail ends with the manufacturer of the receiver.


 
Again, fully functional, reliable, and good quality receivers can be made by anyone with a milling machine.  Why aren't they doing this?  

The answer is this: it's easier, and cheaper, for criminals to buy illegal firearms.  Punish the criminals, and leave the law-abiding people alone.  Plain and simple.  



> And I am no condoning making all airsofts illegal, only this model which needs ONE HOLE DRILLED and a receiver to make it a functional machine gun.


 
Sorry, but your knowledge of how firearms work is lacking, if you honestly think that it's that easy.  

If all you have is a receiver, you can't make a gun go "boom" without all of the other parts.  If you tried to load a 5.56 mm NATO cartridge into what you now call a "machinegun" just after drilling a single hole (and not putting the other expensive parts in), then you're going to have a bomb on your hands that will blow up in your face the moment you try to fire it (even if you could somehow detonate a primer with a toy).  

This is like saying that just because I have a handful of sodium azide powder, that now I can make it into a fully functional solid rocket booster for the space shuttle.  There's also the matter of the solid rocket fuel booster rocket module, the liquid rocket fuel tank, the mounts, and...  the entire space shuttle as well.  




> Garrotte? so you might be able to kill one person, HUGE difference between being able to stand in a rush hour crowd, weekend mall crowd, holiday mob at train station and knock off dozens/ hundreds so your comparison isn't really on target.


 
Nonsense.  If your assertion were anywhere nearly correct, then you wouldn't be seeing dozens of small school children being killed by melee weapons wielded by adults (as it has happened in gun-free Japan and China already).  Once again, you missed the point: anyone can turn commonly available materials into a deadly weapon.  



> As far as oil companies be held for how their product is used? Google "product liability". The answer would be a resounding YES, IF a company knew that their weapon could be easily be turned into a weapon.


 
All oil companies know that gasoline and diesel can be turned into a weapon, or abused as an inhalant drug.  Yet, I don't see people winning lawsuits against the oil companies, the refineries, or even the wholesalers, for selling a product that is easily turned into a weapon.  

You want to stop crime?  Punish those who misuse products, and leave the law-abiding people alone.  Before you do this, though, do some reading on how firearms work.


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## Andy Moynihan (May 17, 2010)

Grenadier said:


> Then why aren't they doing this? You still haven't answered that question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Exactly. I called bull**** on this the moment I heard the supposed description of how the "weapon" is supposed to function/be made.


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## Deaf Smith (May 17, 2010)

fireman00,

The easiest gun to make is a submachinegun. Any small metal working shop can make them (the Sten gun, of British fame, cost 7 bucks to make.)

Just get a plumbing pipe (your tube receiver), bar stock with same OD as the ID of the plumbing pipe. Thread both ends of the pipe. Mill the bar stock to have a fixed firing pin, lip on bottom to feed the ammo in, a grove for an ejector, and another one for the extractor. Bent piece of metal, hardened, becomes the extractor.

Any wire stock can be wound to make a recoil spring for the bolt you made out of the bar stock. Four pieces of metal and two wire springs can be made into a sear and trigger linkage. The sear blocks the bolt until the trigger is pulled.

The barrel does NOT need rifling so just get an end cap, thread it to the tube receiver and drill a hole in the middle and thread it for the barrel. Thread the barrel to fit the hole and just get and end cap for the other end (again, threaded to the tube receiver.)

Hardest part is the magazine. But no fear, that's sheet metal brazed together and wire stock bent and formed into a spring. Bent sheet metal becomes a follower. Use pliers to form the feeding lips.

Why no backwoods hidden zip guns shops? Because they can smuggle in the real McCoy so why bother. BUT, if one day they do stop the smuggling, expect to see such shops, just as we have illegal meth labs.

Deaf


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## fireman00 (May 18, 2010)

Not saying it isn't easy to make a zip gun and I'm not saying outlaw all airsofts.  

But in this instance its common sense to take a "toy",  which could fairly easily converted into an untraceable machine gun,  off the market.  

Sparking roller skates were removed from the shelves a couple of years ago because they could cause a fire, why not this toy?


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## Cryozombie (May 18, 2010)

fireman00 said:


> Sparking roller skates were removed from the shelves a couple of years ago because they could cause a fire, why not this toy?



Because the toy is, in and of itself not dangerous. (beyond being an airsoft gun) Misuse and alteration of the toy is what makes it dangerous.  Sparking Skates were flawed in design that made them dangerous without effort or altering their design.  Apples to Oranges my friend.

Taking a bunch of marbles, sticking em in a sock and tying a rope around it makes it a pretty effective flail.  Should Marbles be taken off the market?

Flying Model Estes Rockets with the addition of explosives make good rocket launchers.  Should we take Model Rockets off the market?

Common Laser pointers can be modified WITH THE TURN OF A SET SCREW to make dangerous cutting lasers.  Should we ban laser pointers?

You get the point?  Its not what the object is, or COULD be made to do.  Its what the objects INTENDED FUNCTION IS.  Twisted individuals can always find a way to make them dangerous... I could kill a man with a teddy bear.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (May 18, 2010)

Cryozombie said:


> Common Laser pointers can be modified WITH THE TURN OF A SET SCREW to make dangerous cutting lasers. Should we ban laser pointers?


 
Is that really true?


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## Cryozombie (May 19, 2010)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> Is that really true?



Almost.  You need to open it up, turn the screw and melt a safety "chip" up so it burns out... but yes... you can turn a cheap 5mw Laser pointer into a 100mw + Burning laser that easily.  (you can go much higher than 100, but you need to add cooling and heat sinks so the laser doesn't overheat and burn out)  But even at 100mw you can ignite flamables, light cigarettes, melt Low-temp plastics, etc.


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## Grenadier (May 19, 2010)

fireman00 said:


> But in this instance its common sense to take a "toy", which could fairly *easily converted into an untraceable machine gun*, off the market.


 
If you've read any of my posts, or Cryozombie's, we've already explained that it is not easily converted into a functional machine gun.  I've already told you exactly what's involved in trying to do such a thing, and you keep asserting that it's easily converted.  

Talk to any gunsmith who has a reasonably good working knowledge of firearms, and they'll tell you the same thing.  Relying on media reports performed by uninformed reporters isn't a good way to present your assertion, since you're basing it on false pretenses.  



> Sparking roller skates were removed from the shelves a couple of years ago because they could cause a fire, why not this toy?


 
How many people were gunned down (and I mean murdered) by toy Airsoft weapons that were "easily converted" (as you asserted) into full auto weapons?


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## Carol (May 20, 2010)

Grenadier said:


> How many people were gunned down (and I mean murdered) by toy Airsoft weapons that were "easily converted" (as you asserted) into full auto weapons?



Fewer people than the number of people attacked with machetes in Hillsborough County, NH in the last 30 days.

Next question?


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## Satt (May 20, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> fireman00,
> 
> The easiest gun to make is a submachinegun. Any small metal working shop can make them (the Sten gun, of British fame, cost 7 bucks to make.)
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for teaching me this. :wink1:


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## Archangel M (May 20, 2010)

F'n stupid. 

Thats all I have to say about that.


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## hongkongfooey (Jun 13, 2010)

fireman00 said:


> Not saying it isn't easy to make a zip gun and I'm not saying outlaw all airsofts.
> 
> But in this instance its common sense to take a "toy", which could fairly easily converted into an untraceable machine gun, off the market.
> 
> Sparking roller skates were removed from the shelves a couple of years ago because they could cause a fire, why not this toy?


 

The ATF lies. They have lied in the past and they are lying now.


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## Grenadier (Jun 14, 2010)

hongkongfooey said:


> The ATF lies. They have lied in the past and they are lying now.


 
It's already been quite a few weeks since the incident, and I still have yet to hear any respectable firearms expert agree with the "ease" at which Airsoft weapons could be converted to functional full auto weapons...  

All that's been blabbed about, was from a few ignorant ATF folks, and the ignorant gun grabbing lobby.


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## chaos1551 (Jun 15, 2010)

My hands are deadly weapons..............

But really, though.  I'd be against a Build-Your-Own-Bazooka-At-Home Kit, but I wouldn't be ready to regulate all the items that would go in said kit.


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