# havs taiji's step skills lost?



## ggg214 (Oct 9, 2008)

recently, talking with many taiji pracititoners under different sifu, about taiji's step skills, we all have the same opinion: taiji's step skills may lost.that's one of reasons why taiji can not free fight with others.
for example, my teacher who has practiced taiji for over 30 years, in his early age, had many chance of sparring with others, some were champions in san da. he admitted that he used bagua steps. 
what's your opinion?


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## grydth (Oct 9, 2008)

Not just the footwork, but any concept of martial application is often missing. That's the state of the art in many places in the USA. Many people are just in it for health and destressing - and that's fine if that's all teacher and student want.

However, don't think that there are not quality teachers of fighting techniques available in many regions. You just have to know where to look, and be patient. In my experience they will have to work with you for some time before starting to teach you these.

My first sifu borrowed from bagua - and other arts - in the methods he taught.


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## Laoshi77 (Oct 10, 2008)

Footwork of course is important but Taijiquan in particular is a very subtle art which does not need 'amazing footwork'. 
From my experience movement is mostly contributed by the hips and waist.

Anyone agree?


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 10, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> recently, talking with many taiji pracititoners under different sifu, about taiji's step skills, we all have the same opinion: taiji's step skills may lost.that's one of reasons why taiji can not free fight with others.
> for example, my teacher who has practiced taiji for over 30 years, in his early age, had many chance of sparring with others, some were champions in san da. he admitted that he used bagua steps.
> what's your opinion?


 
Question, did the Taiji sifu have to fight using Sanda rules?

Also please define what you mean by foot work.



grydth said:


> Not just the footwork, but any concept of martial application is often missing. That's the state of the art in many places in the USA. Many people are just in it for health and destressing - and that's fine if that's all teacher and student want.
> 
> However, don't think that there are not quality teachers of fighting techniques available in many regions. You just have to know where to look, and be patient. In my experience they will have to work with you for some time before starting to teach you these.
> 
> My first sifu borrowed from bagua - and other arts - in the methods he taught.


 
Actually I know of a rather well respected Yang Taiji sifu that from what I see him do he too has borrowed from Bagua and Xingyi. And I agree with you many today do not train it for MA and many people teaching it today do not truly understand the MA of it so how can anyone learn it.

My Yang sifu as I have said Ad nauseam was a student of Tung Ying Chieh and my sifu has been at taiji for over 50 years. And he teaches push hands, four corner push hands, 3 step push hands, something he calls 1 step and free style. Also he teaches 2 fast sets as well all from his sifu so I do believe he is covering foot work (and taiji like MOST cma styles does not hop like western boxing). But I will say this teaching any sort of stepping in connection with tuishou is rare today in taiji, especially in the Yang style world. Also I have seen the Chen family teach a rather fast moving push hands set. And to be honest it is rare in just about every taiji today. 



Laoshi77 said:


> Footwork of course is important but Taijiquan in particular is a very subtle art which does not need 'amazing footwork'.
> From my experience movement is mostly contributed by the hips and waist.
> 
> Anyone agree?


 
I agree it can be subtle but my experience says taiji has foot work, unless I do not understand the definition.

I think the problem comes in when you train something like taiji for many years and then step into another style that dictates how you can fight and tells you what you can and cannot do. I once was invited to a TKD school to spar (actually my first Sifu&#8217;s class was invited) when I got there I was told I could only hit certain areas I could not hold I could not use joint locks I could not use takedowns so I bowed out and later told them you asked me to fight like I train &#8220;sport tkd&#8221; and I do not. Pretty much all the rules told me I could not use anything I trained.

However with that said, sadly, IMO, 90% or more of all of the people out there doing taiji today if told go in the ring and do whatever you want&#8230;would still loose, they do not train for fighting anymore. And many fool themselves with this &#8220;Taiji is a superior MA&#8221; stuff or &#8220;Taiji is Graduate school of CMA&#8221; and never ever even do tuishou so how can they fight.


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## Laoshi77 (Oct 10, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> I agree it can be subtle but my experience says taiji has foot work, unless I do not understand the definition.


 
Of course Taijiquan has footwork that is obvious, I was merely suggesting that through shifting weight through the hips one can react quicker than stepping.


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## pete (Oct 10, 2008)

Absolutely... the power comes from the feet but is directed by the waist. that goes for stepping too.  generate power up from the ground, and direct it back down to make the step.

we do a 'walking tai chi' after the tai chi form is learned well, which includes 'bagua-style' continous walking.  the difference between walking tai chi and classical bagua, is that while the stepping appears to be the same, walking tai chi is still being directed by the waist. classical bagua, at least cheng-style, is led straight up from the feet.

walking tai chi, when used in push hands, self-defense applications, and sparring makes everything come alive!

pete


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## oxy (Oct 10, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Also he teaches 2 fast sets as well all from his sifu so I do believe he is covering foot work (and taiji like MOST cma styles does not hop like western boxing). But I will say this teaching any sort of stepping in connection with tuishou is rare today in taiji, especially in the Yang style world.



Would it be fair to say, though, that Xingyi and Bagua has a much more developed/extensive way of training footwork? Would it also be fair to say that Taiji from any family has almost no concept of floating root (maybe except Sun family)?

(I think there's an implicit understanding emerging now that we are defining "footwork" to mean "moving around")

My own experience in Taiji so far is Yang long form and small sansou and, even for a beginner like me, the level of footwork required in those forms is below that of a beginner in LHBF. And personally, I still think it makes more sense to turn on the balls of the feet rather than the heels.



> I think the problem comes in when you train something like taiji for many years and then step into another style that dictates how you can fight and tells you what you can and cannot do. I once was invited to a TKD school to spar (actually my first Sifus class was invited) when I got there I was told I could only hit certain areas I could not hold I could not use joint locks I could not use takedowns so I bowed out and later told them you asked me to fight like I train sport tkd and I do not. Pretty much all the rules told me I could not use anything I trained.



I used to think it is kind of unfair for people to impose rules in cross style sparring that benefits one style only, but I have to say, in my limited experience in sparring (I think I started about July this year and have only been able to spar 5 times), having to think of a way to not be limited by the rules is a very interesting and very good training exercise.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 10, 2008)

Laoshi77 said:


> Of course Taijiquan has footwork that is obvious, I was merely suggesting that through shifting weight through the hips one can react quicker than stepping.


 
If you are close and depending on the situation absolutly


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 10, 2008)

oxy said:


> Would it be fair to say, though, that Xingyi and Bagua has a much more developed/extensive way of training footwork? Would it also be fair to say that Taiji from any family has almost no concept of floating root (maybe except Sun family)?
> 
> (I think there's an implicit understanding emerging now that we are defining "footwork" to mean "moving around")
> 
> My own experience in Taiji so far is Yang long form and small sansou and, even for a beginner like me, the level of footwork required in those forms is below that of a beginner in LHBF. And personally, I still think it makes more sense to turn on the balls of the feet rather than the heels.


 
If foot work means to move around then no. Taiji moves and it moves rather well. I think the problem comes in taiji when people are double weighted and totally miss understanding what is meant by root in taiji. And it also appears when someone is forced to take the slow movements and transfer those to fast movements. And also take into account Taiji is much more geared towards fighting close. Having no experience at all with LHBF I cannot make the comparison there. 

As to Xingyi as compared to taiji it move quite different as to Bagua as compared to Xingyi and taiji it too move very different IMO but I have much less experience in Bagua. All I can say as I have not come across any Bagua mud walking or circle walking in the Taiji I train.

But I&#8217;m still not 100% sure that ggg214 is defining foot work as simply moving around. 

And Taiji, at least Yang and Chen, turn on more than just the heel  just wait you will see. 



oxy said:


> I used to think it is kind of unfair for people to impose rules in cross style sparring that benefits one style only, but I have to say, in my limited experience in sparring (I think I started about July this year and have only been able to spar 5 times), having to think of a way to not be limited by the rules is a very interesting and very good training exercise.


 
Yes I do believe it would be


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## ggg214 (Oct 11, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Question, did the Taiji sifu have to fight using Sanda rules?
> 
> Also please define what you mean by foot work.


 
i think there is no settled rules in tradditional CMA's free application, especially for different styles, as taiji vs xingyi, or taiji vs shaolin. before they applicate, they just simply agree that there are some dangerous places which is not allowed to hit, as eyes etc. so the word fight or application in my post may also be recognised as street fight, or some things that is not governed by clear rules and aimed to K.O.

foot work in my question is which can be directly used in fight!


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## ggg214 (Oct 11, 2008)

here i want to explain why i have made the above question.
the most popular way of push hands is just standing there and push. if one is moved no matter forward or backward, by other one's push or pull, one loses. practitioners spend years on this training, and believe that it's kind of application. 
anyone who have seen or had a chance in a fight knows that it couldn't be happened that two persons is standing there and sparring, they are moving. so the push hand is far from real fight.
i just want to find out some evidence to prove that taiji can be used in real fight!


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## pete (Oct 11, 2008)

push hands is not supposed to represent a fight. it is a training tool that develops sensitivity and will test your ability to maintain and self-correct your own posture, movement, and balance.

going from stationary push hands to moving to walking should not take years, or even months but that really depends on the student and their consistency in practice.  but its not a linear sequence... going from stationary to moving then to walking does not mean you abandon stationary!  All 3 are continued to be practiced for different reasons and to develop skill.  

pete


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## Jin Gang (Oct 11, 2008)

stationary push hands is only one type of push hands drill.  In my taiji class, we practiced moving, free form push hands most of the time (after the basic form was learned).  Of course taijiquan has footwork, you practice it every time you step through any form, long or short.  

 The push hands competitions that you might see, I think, are not good representations of what taijiquan is about.  This is where they have to stay stationary, or keep one foot planted in place at all times, and try to push the other person out of a ring.  It ends up looking like sumo, because people are competitive, and taiji training goes out the window many times.  Competitiveness is contrary to the basic philosophy of taijiquan, so how could a sporting venu with such rules be an appropriate place to display taiji skills?


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## oxy (Oct 12, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> As to Xingyi as compared to taiji it move quite different as to Bagua as compared to Xingyi and taiji it too move very different IMO but I have much less experience in Bagua. All I can say as I have not come across any Bagua mud walking or circle walking in the Taiji I train.



It's just that I get the impression, when watching footage of Bagua and Taiji, that Bagua people move more flowingly, for example. And in Xingyi, the attacks are timed with the steps. I don't see any of that in any of the applications of Taiji (and I'm talking about even those from the Chen family).

But like I said, it's just an impression that I get. I think it may have something to do with the fact that Bagua and Xingyi uses a lot of up and down movements (while maintaining root), which in discussions with certain Taiji people, seemed to be a completely foreign idea to them.



> And Taiji, at least Yang and Chen, turn on more than just the heel  just wait you will see.



Actually, what gets me more is that there's no foot turning at all during the fa jing.


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## oxy (Oct 12, 2008)

Laoshi77 said:


> Of course Taijiquan has footwork that is obvious, I was merely suggesting that through shifting weight through the hips one can react quicker than stepping.



It depends on the training for the stepping.

A lot of people, when they do stepping, reach out with their foot first, plant it, and then shift the weight. In that case it is slow and incidentally seems to be the predominant way of stepping in the Taiji I have seen.


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## Laoshi77 (Oct 13, 2008)

oxy said:


> It depends on the training for the stepping.
> 
> A lot of people, when they do stepping, reach out with their foot first, plant it, and then shift the weight. In that case it is slow and incidentally seems to be the predominant way of stepping in the Taiji I have seen.


 
Of course this way of learning is to create 'muscle memory' so that ultimately ones reactions will be instantaneous. Practising the form slowly actually increases reaction speeds if and when the body needs to react in that fashion.

This is why I mentioned the shifting of weight in the hips as this can often be quicker than any step and on many occasions the simplest move is often the most effective!


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## ggg214 (Oct 15, 2008)

the shifting of weight in hip or waist?


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## Laoshi77 (Oct 19, 2008)

In the hips; one is Yin and one Yang for every movement.


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## Ninebird8 (Oct 21, 2008)

Just like kung fu, the true foot movement has been almost lost. In studying Yang tai chi, along with many years in kung fu, I respectfully attest that tai ji does have proper footwork if taught. However, the up and down movements described, unless I misinterpret the comments, are contrary to rooting, expressing chi, and using fa jing with silk reeling to express out through the hands. What seems to be missing in this conversation, from my perspective, is the connectivity from feet to waist to shoulder, expressed through the sunken elbows through the hands in a whipping, penetrating, and/or soft to hard notion (steel wrapped in cotton concept).  While ba gua has obviously great circular and 8 step movements and hsing-i is very expressive in its stepping and hand jing, other than chen is more subtle but just as effective.  I personally consider Chen style the bridge historically between external kung fu and the taiji expression (this is my concept only!). The Yang style has, at first, what appears to be very stagnant footwork and little expressed jing. However, and maybe my tai chi sifu, Jeff Bolt, and his teacher, Dr. Yang Jwing Ming, taught us differently, but we were always shown tai ji chin na and moving applications through the use of movement and proper footwork. The standing push hands were a beginner's trip until sufficient enough in relaxing, bridging, and sticking, to begin moving. We had many drills for moving push hands, and sitting in our root for that instant, and jinging to our opponent through our push hands sensitivity. It also helped me that I also had my kung fu to understand foot movement and application as well. In fact, without foot movement, all Chinese martial arts is stagnant and ineffective. A gross example: look at traditional wing chun versus modified and how different that is in relation to footwork. Of course, in a real fight, everything evolves and changes, so to not practice footwork is inpractical. If you can find the book, Yang Tai chi Transmissions, by Yang Chen Fu, he describes the footwork well in poetry form! And, he was a very large 300 pound man who could root and glide easily.

A last point: like the external, tai ji could not have lasted this long and be called "grand ultimate boxing" if it was grossly ineffective in fighting. Like everything in nature, only the strongest fighting methodologies and species survive. This was used in warfare alongside the external arts and, in fact, I know few legit kung fu masters who also do not incorporate the footwork and connectivity of tai ji. 

Just my humble observations and personal experience on tai ji footwork.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 21, 2008)

Ninebird8 said:


> I personally consider Chen style the bridge historically between external kung fu and the taiji expression (*this is my concept only*!).


 
Actually no its not, my sifu who was a student of Tung Ying Chieh and been at taiji for over 50 years has said the pretty much same thing.

Also Yang as it comes from Tung Ying Chieh teaches foot work in both form (slow and fast) and various types of push hands training.


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## Ninebird8 (Oct 22, 2008)

Xue, to your first comment: as I said in my post, that was my opinion only,and the reason I say that is observational. I have no historical basis for that, just observing the hard and soft apparent movements in traditional Chen style.As far as Yang footwork, my tai ji master and grandmaster have also shown us very good and useful footwork from Yang that I have also applied to my kung fu.


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## oxy (Oct 22, 2008)

Ninebird8 said:


> However, the up and down movements described, unless I misinterpret the comments, are contrary to rooting, expressing chi, and using fa jing with silk reeling to express out through the hands.



That's kind of why I think Taiji footwork is limited precisely because of the lack of up and down movement. I speak from the LHBF perspective only. From my experience, the up and down movement does not negate any rooting, chi expression and especially fajing. Fajing in LHBF is pretty much enhanced by the up and down movements in footwork. It is precisely the incredulity of Taiji practitioners at the notion of up and down movement in footwork which gives me the impression that Taiji footwork isn't as well developed.



> A last point: like the external, tai ji could not have lasted this long and be called "grand ultimate boxing" if it was grossly ineffective in fighting.



Xue Sheng seems to be the premier Taijiquan historian around here so he will probably have to correct me. I was under the impression that "Grand Ultimate Boxing" was a self-styled name and wasn't the first name given to it. I also remember that there were other practices at the time that also styled themselves as Taiji.

Amongst LHBF practitioners, LHBF is sometimes known as the Kung Fu Dictionary. I would be the first to say that this says nothing about how good LHBF actually is, just because people from within the style say it.



> Like everything in nature, only the strongest fighting methodologies and species survive. This was used in warfare alongside the external arts and, in fact, I know few legit kung fu masters who also do not incorporate the footwork and connectivity of tai ji.
> 
> Just my humble observations and personal experience on tai ji footwork.



No one is saying that Taiji isn't effective or indeed some of the best examples of CMA. But that still doesn't automatically means it has the best footwork. It as adequate footwork, there's no denying it. That's all I'm trying to say.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 22, 2008)

Ninebird8 said:


> Xue, to your first comment: as I said in my post, that was my opinion only,and the reason I say that is observational. I have no historical basis for that, just observing the hard and soft apparent movements in traditional Chen style.As far as Yang footwork, my tai ji master and grandmaster have also shown us very good and useful footwork from Yang that I have also applied to my kung fu.


 
No problem, all I was saying is you are not the only one, that is all.


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## Ninebird8 (Oct 23, 2008)

Oxy, with all due respect, I have also recently learned the Li He Bua Fa movements from a classmate who learned the complete long form form from Liang Shouyu, the father of Helen Liang, one of the best water boxing practitioners. Do you realize that this form is a combo of Tai ji, ba gua and hsing i with elements of all integrated into one beautiful, effective form and fighting system. When I stated Yang did not have many up and down movements, maybe my comments were not clear.  We of course do snake creeps down, etc, but when moving in internal or external, it is essential to be rooted for that moment of contact. As a great believer in good footwork being essential to great fighting prowess, Yang tai ji helped me connect the dots in my footwork, if you will, from my kung fu practice. In fact, the footwork drills we did for our moving push hands were directly relational to the patterned foot work I learned in Ying Jow Pai eagle claw, Wudan Nine birds family style, and southern white crane as well as the Tai Ji. As a bird mover (LOL! See my external styles), it has been a great help in understanding how foot movement and fa jing can be combined to generate great focused power for a little guy like myself, who is 5" 4" and 150 lbs against much bigger opponents. The foot movement of tai ji also taught me how to move concentrically as well as linearly, and provided insight to merge offensive/defensive into a flowing combined movement. As I stated, Li He Bua Fa is a combo and incorporates the best advantages of all three major internal styles.  Again, just my opinion and personal experience.


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## ggg214 (Oct 28, 2008)

comparing taiji's training, bagua seems more effective .


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## Formosa Neijia (Nov 9, 2008)

oxy said:


> Would it be fair to say, though, that Xingyi and Bagua has a much more developed/extensive way of training footwork? Would it also be fair to say that Taiji from any family has almost no concept of floating root (maybe except Sun family)?



I think that's a fair statement. 

There's a Chinese saying: xingyi hands, taiji waist, and bagua feet. 

That represents the best that each of those styles has to offer in the opinion of people that have done them all. Naturally, you won't find this saying much from lineages that claim "purity" or that frown on cross-training.

The bagua footwork is just too good to ignore. It's a significant improvement over the other two styles IMO.

Taiji excels at stationary power via waist, xingyi specializes in half-step, and bagua specializes in continuous step. The Chen Pan-ling taiji form that I do incorproates all those three in the stepping because they form a continuum of movement.  

Some problems pop up in training these three. For example, the waist is not used much in half-step or continuous stepping because the power comes from the feet, not the waist. That's not really a serious problem, but it does cause taiji people that specialize in stationary movement to frown on moving step a bit. It tends to get them away from taiji's forte.


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