# Why does it take so long to get a Black Belt in most systems?



## SpiritFists936 (Oct 29, 2003)

why does it take so long to get a black belt in most martial arts systems? I mean when people find out it only usually takes 1 1/2 to 2 years to get a black belt in the system i take they freak out and say they have been in their system 6 years and still dont have a black belt. not to be concieted or anything but most of the time these 6 years vets arent even as good as our middle ranking belts, yet they have been in the martial arts 10 times longer, can someone explain this to me?

Thanks


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## Zoran (Oct 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SpiritFists936 _
> *why does it take so long to get a black belt in most martial arts systems? I mean when people find out it only usually takes 1 1/2 to 2 years to get a black belt in the system i take they freak out and say they have been in their system 6 years and still dont have a black belt. not to be concieted or anything but most of the time these 6 years vets arent even as good as our middle ranking belts, yet they have been in the martial arts 10 times longer, can someone explain this to me?
> 
> Thanks *



Well it depends what your definition of "good" is. As I haven't met the people you have, I can't vouch for them. However, if the definition of good is how you spar, do forms/kata, or they just don't look "pretty" when doing their stuff, that may not be everybodies definition of good. Some people define good as far as self defense only, while others define good through sparring or how they may "look" doing forms to techs. 

So what is good?

_P.S.
A Mod may want to move this to General forum as this may not pertain to self defense._


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## stickarts (Oct 29, 2003)

its also important to define the criteria for blackbelt! standards in one school usually differ from another! traditional schools do normally take longer, also many schools have minimum time requirements since being proficient in the material takes longer then just memorizing the moves.


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## theletch1 (Oct 29, 2003)

> Although Shen Chuan is a "new art" in organization and concepts, the techniques are not the invention of Professor Lansdale. They have been part of the martial arts world for centuries. The Professor has added his own approach, concepts and principles to produce a self-defense system that can be taught rapidly and will allow the student to flow from one range to the next, with a special emphasis on the striking and locking aspects of the art. Shen Chuan is not designed to be used in tournaments. It can be adapted to full contact sports, but not without ample consideration, and is not meant for those purposes. It does not claim to be superior to any other art. Each art has its strengths.


 This is from the Shen Chuan website that I found after reading your profile.  It seems that the system you study was specifically designed by your grandmaster to taught at a faster speed than more "traditional" arts.  I think if we took the time to BB from all the arts out there and averaged them up we'd wind up with 4 or 5 years as the average.  Without starting a "my system takes this long" tangent to the thread I will say simply that many systems out there just require a good deal more time in before awarding a BB to a student.  It really makes no difference to me how long someone has studied to make blackbelt so long as they feel that they have gotten what they needed from the style/system to get them to that level and they remember that blackbelt doesn't make you a master, just a student with a ton more to learn.

((I agree that this should be moved to the general MA forum))


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## Eggman (Oct 29, 2003)

I believe that yes there are some gifted individuals out there who can earn a black belt in a few years when i hear schools pumping many students to black belt in such a short period of time, no i begin to worry.  Worry only in the fact of all the false sense of security a BB given brings versus the BB earned.  After a hiatus of training for a few years i restarted EPAK at green belt and took 4 years from that point of hard training to get my 1st.  If my instructor would have said you need another 2 years or ten for the matter, no problem.  What style are you in that everyone gets a BB in less than 2 years?


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## SpiritFists936 (Oct 29, 2003)

not everyone gets it in less than two years, that was an average, you only get it when you deserve it, as far as better goes sorry for the usage of the wrong word, i meant able to apply techniques. we have no sport aspects in our system its only self defense, sorry guess i should have explained it a little better, but this is my first time to thread something.  I wasnt saying that Shen Chuan was better then any other art, i just didnt understand why it took so much longer to learn other systems, I am still a little unclear, but your posts have helped, Thanks!!


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## Titan Uk (Oct 30, 2003)

I have known students who do not wish to progress through the belts of their style.
That does not mean that they are not learning anything when they go to class. They are still working through the system but they are not doing the gradings for the belts.
It does not matter how long it takes to get a bb but whether or not you are getting what you want out of the system.
Some people just want to get fit or build up confidence or what every they start out to achieve.
I agree that the belts are a good sign of what you have achieved and I would never give up my bb, which I have worked long and hard to get.

I was recently informed that a club was making students bb in less than a year inorder that you can then take over the running of that club and their instructor can move on to open another club to make more money.


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## lvwhitebir (Oct 31, 2003)

It's just a matter of that style's requirements.  I know of a school near me that takes 10-15 years to get a black sash.  They don't do sport, nor do they even spar.  It's a lot of forms.  They don't train to be pretty with the forms either, but effective, going hard and fast through them.  It takes something like 3 forms just to get your white sash.

Other schools don't have near the requirements and so you would be able to master them quicker.  Take boxing for example, how long does it take to master 5 or 6 strikes?  It doesn't mean you're a better or worse fighter or that the style is better or worse.  It's just what it is.  A lot of it is also what your definition of a "black sash student" is.  Does it matter how long it takes as long as you're still growing and getting better?  To me, it's not the goal, it's the journey.

WhiteBirch


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## hardheadjarhead (Oct 31, 2003)

Chuck Norris got his black belt in something like 13 months...that was in Korea, training 30 hours a week.  Joe Lewis did it in nine months...but that was in Okinawa in the Marines.  On the Rock you either do physical training, or you drink.  He didn't drink, obviously.

Still, I know of schools that award black belts to children at the age of six with only two years of training...two classes a week...each class one half hour long.

I don't go for that.

Two of my students took seven years...they stuck it out.  Why so long?  One was dyslexic.  The other had neurological problems, motor coordination issues, and Asperger's syndrome.  I'm proud of them.

Time in training never hurt anyone.  Heck, it takes five years to get Eagle Scout...why not that amount of time for a black belt?

SCS


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## Zepp (Oct 31, 2003)

The same ranks mean different things to different people.  Comparing ranks between different systems and arts is a waste of time.  In my primary art, the average time to get a black belt is 3-4 years of steady training.  When I want to know how experienced someone is in a style I don't practice, I don't ask what their rank is.  The better questions are "how long have you trained in it" and "how often do you train."  That tells me much more about a person's level of skill.


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## OULobo (Nov 3, 2003)

Right now I have been avoiding getting my black rank because I want to avoid the politics. I have been doing the instructor exercises, drills, techniques, ect. for some time and my instructor has mentioned testing me, but I have been able to get out of it. Ironicly, I think that black rank is the only one that counts and I don't even wear rank unless it is a formal event. Everyone at the school knows me and what I can do and new people find out very quickly. I agree with Zepp, you can't use rank as a valid comparison, because of the differance in training total time and training frequency.


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## pesilat (Nov 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SpiritFists936 _
> *why does it take so long to get a black belt in most martial arts systems? I mean when people find out it only usually takes 1 1/2 to 2 years to get a black belt in the system i take they freak out and say they have been in their system 6 years and still dont have a black belt. not to be concieted or anything but most of the time these 6 years vets arent even as good as our middle ranking belts, yet they have been in the martial arts 10 times longer, can someone explain this to me?
> 
> Thanks *



I can't speak for other systems, but in Sikal, it took me 4.5 years. The other 3 instructors in it took 5.5 years, 6.5 years, and 8 years. So the average (thus far) is about 6 years. The caveat to that is that the other 3 guys all had periods of time where they weren't as active (or had to quit training completely) for one reason or another - so that's one reason that they took longer than I did.

Having gone through the Shen Chuan curriculum from white to black belt, I can tell you this. It's a very streamlined (for lack of a better word) curriculum. Prof. Lansdale did a very good job of making it readily accessible to people.

But, as has been pointed out on this board and others, as well as by Prof. Lansdale in classes - the black belt isn't the measure. A black belt simply means that you've fulfilled the necessary requirements of the school you attend. Just like different high schools have different requirements, so do different MA schools. I compare a black belt to a high school diploma. It's a worthwhile achievement but, in the big picture and long term scheme of things, it's pretty trivial. What you do and learn after you get your black belt is more weighty (i.e.: analagous to college, post grad, and actual work experience).

What Prof. did with Shen Chuan was analagous to a "specialized" school. Let's use high schools as an example. Many MA schools are like standard high schools. They teach a variety of courses - to put it simply and in East Texas terms , "readin', writin', and 'rithmatic." What Prof. has done is create a specialized school where they focus specifically on writin' (Prof. being an author, I figure that's appropriate, though in MA lingo, Shen Chuan is specialized on self-defense). Obviously, it will take less time to learn one subject than to learn several.

Now, I know that there are several classes taught at Lansdale's school. But each is a very specialized curriculum with a very specific focus. But if someone were training, simultaneously, in Stickboxing, Streetboxing, and Shen Chuan, their progress would have to be slowed down (if for no other reason than the Stickboxing and Streetboxing classes overlap so they couldn't hit all the classes all the time - but most people would be slowed down regardless just because it'd take them longer to process it all). Or you can get a black belt in each sequentially. Either way, I would guess that, on average, it would take someone 4 - 6 years to get black belts in all three. That would be comparable to a black belt in some other schools where their main curriculum encompasses multiple aspects. What each covers will differ, of course. One may cover empty hands and weapons for self defense and sport. One may cover only empty hands but cover for self defense, sport, and health. One may cover grappling and stand up self defense with and without weapons. There are a lot of different possible combinations. And, as said before, each school will have different requirements.

I've probably gone way past "just" answering your question. But you know from first hand experience that I can talk up a storm without half trying 

Mike


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## Kroy (Nov 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *Right now I have been avoiding getting my black rank because I want to avoid the politics.  *



What kind of politics are you refering to?


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## OULobo (Nov 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kroy _
> *What kind of politics are you refering to? *



Sometimes there are cliques in the club, occational jealousy on who seems to have the instructor's attention, people who don't agree with teaching methods, ect. I'd imagine it's not that uncommon. The other issue is that BB's are required to do a ton of teaching and they really aren't given much in the way of new techniques or information. While I agree with helping to educate new students, I don't think it would come at the cost of the BB's potential.


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## Kroy (Nov 4, 2003)

Understood:asian:


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## pesilat (Nov 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *The other issue is that BB's are required to do a ton of teaching and they really aren't given much in the way of new techniques or information. While I agree with helping to educate new students, I don't think it would come at the cost of the BB's potential. *



Ahh - putting on "Devil's Advocate" hat - but new techniques and information aren't the only way to improve a BB's potential. Developing a deeper understanding of what he/she already knows is another way (and, in some ways develops more potential). And the best way to develop that deeper understanding is to teach. 

Mike


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## OULobo (Nov 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pesilat _
> *Ahh - putting on "Devil's Advocate" hat - but new techniques and information aren't the only way to improve a BB's potential. Developing a deeper understanding of what he/she already knows is another way (and, in some ways develops more potential). And the best way to develop that deeper understanding is to teach.
> 
> Mike *



While I agree with teaching both as spreading the art and in examining the fundamentals with a more experienced eye, I also think that improvment comes from training with those with more knowledge than me, and in teaching the basics; I lose touch with the more advanced techniques; miss opportunities to learn previously unseen information; miss the drilling and conditionoing that hone the skills I have already learned. I can reexamine the basics by going and participating in beginner's classes (which I try to do once a week or so). The only things that tempt me to become a BB is the freedom to teach when I wish and the tenative sense of closure (even thought my learning never ends).


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## lvwhitebir (Nov 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *While I agree with teaching both as spreading the art and in examining the fundamentals with a more experienced eye, I also think that improvment comes from training with those with more knowledge than me, and in teaching the basics; I lose touch with the more advanced techniques; miss opportunities to learn previously unseen information; miss the drilling and conditionoing that hone the skills I have already learned. *



You make it sound like once you reach black belt, all you'll do is teach and not learn.  I own my own school and teach several classes a day, but I continue to train with my instructor and he with his.  I read lots of books and buy lots of videos in order to acquire new skills and techniques which my instructor doesn't even know about.

If all you do is teach in your school once you reach black belt, then go to another school.  I only require advanced rank students to have teaching experience, usually an hour or so a week.  Unless your school is so different, I see no reason why you can't continue to train and learn while you teach.

WhiteBirch


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## OULobo (Nov 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lvwhitebir _
> *You make it sound like once you reach black belt, all you'll do is teach and not learn.  I own my own school and teach several classes a day, but I continue to train with my instructor and he with his.  I read lots of books and buy lots of videos in order to acquire new skills and techniques which my instructor doesn't even know about.
> 
> If all you do is teach in your school once you reach black belt, then go to another school.  I only require advanced rank students to have teaching experience, usually an hour or so a week.  Unless your school is so different, I see no reason why you can't continue to train and learn while you teach.
> ...



I'm sure the BBs are learning from their teaching, but during the classes I attend that's all they do (plus a little drilling and conditioning). There may be a "secret" BB class or something, but I doubt it. I pretty much do what you are suggesting. I read what I can (but that isn't the same as learning by doing) but I don't like the idea of learning from a video. There are too many nuances and other factors that I don't think can be seen on videos (plus there is no way to ask questions). I also go to as many seminars as I can afford, but they are expensive, few and far in between. I'm not with out options, I'm just of the opinion that I won't gain much getting a BB in this system. 

The example I have been discussing is the case at one of the schools I attend. In the others I am too low in skill to even think about BB or rank isn't used .


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## 2fisted (Nov 17, 2003)

The 'Black Belt' means different things to different styles, too.  For some it means that you're an 'expert' or something.  My teacher was taught in Okinawa, and when he received his black belt, it only meant he was accepted as a student, so that true education in Goju-ryu could begin.  So I can see how it would vary depending on the art one learns.


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## Titan Uk (Nov 18, 2003)

Since becoming BB over 2 years ago. I have been teaching and not training. 
I have not learn a single new technique.

It is very hard to continue to develop yourself once a BB but then you have the chance to develop others.

Do not delay taking BB. It's a good feeling to have it but form experience it does not matter what level our at as long as you want to learn. Always be open to new idea and always be open to constructive comments whether good or bad


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 18, 2003)

It IS frustrating for a black belt once put in the teaching role.  You don't get taught as much...if at all.

I will say this...teaching has its advantages.  As follows:

--For the very first time you see the mistakes others make.  If you never made that particular mistake, it forces you to think of a solution for teaching it correctly.  This is challenging for techniques that are complicated.

--Teaching spurs creativity.  It forces one to come up with new analogies for explaining methods.

--You see challenges that others have.  Some people, for instance, can not move the way others do...and likely will always have that limitation.  This spurs a black belt to modify the technique to fit that individual, or come up with a suitable replacement technique.

--You have to ALWAYS be on your toes when teaching, so you don't mess up in front of your students.

All of this can make you a better martial artist and better technician.  It can give you a far better understanding of what it is you're doing.

So...to connect this with the original topic of the thread...it takes a long time to get black belt for a very good reason.  At the end of that road the student becomes a leader.  The leader has to be competent to a certain degree.  Competency takes time acquire.

Regards,

Steve Scott


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## loki09789 (Nov 18, 2003)

"Since becoming BB over 2 years ago. I have been teaching and not training. 
I have not learn a single new technique."

Are there any 'new' techniques once your a BB?  By then, don't you know all the mechanical/fundamental movements of the art you are studying?  I honestly am asking, because within Kenpo/Arnis arts the technical stuff if covered by about Green Belt and the depth of proficiency and understanding/creativity is what is developed from then on.  Some arts do have BB only training that is part of the motivation for the artists.  

The length of time really comes down to necessary man hours of repetition and thought that it requires to 'get it' and be able to 'do it' well under pressure.

I would think that at least 3 months of fitness conditioning would be the beginners goal (along with the technical baseline) to make sure you can make it through a class without feeling too bad the next day. Then, the conditioning (mental/physical/technical) to deal with applying those techniques in stress/sparring/realistic application would be the next, and so on.  The time requirement just exists because it does.

Paul Martin


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 18, 2003)

In the systems I've studied, there is a wealth of information past black belt...plus refinement of the techniques already learned.

And there is nothing wrong with cross training at that point!

Regards,

Steve Scott


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SpiritFists936 _
> *why does it take so long to get a black belt in most martial arts systems? I mean when people find out it only usually takes 1 1/2 to 2 years to get a black belt in the system i take they freak out and say they have been in their system 6 years and still dont have a black belt. not to be concieted or anything but most of the time these 6 years vets arent even as good as our middle ranking belts, yet they have been in the martial arts 10 times longer, can someone explain this to me?
> 
> Thanks *


 It sounds as if you have no idea how much material some styles cover. Yes you do get better at less stuff quicker. Kenpo, for instance, has a bout a 154(give or take) techs with endings to add and study at the higher belt levels. I don't even want to tell you how long it took for me to make black. The scarry thing is that in a fight its really all about who was first and if a two year black belt blasts me in the head before I get him then I get knocked out; however, if I know what knd of fighter I'm dealing with, I have enough material to devise different game plans. I'll tackle and grapple a kicker or kick and punch a grappler. In short the systems that take longer do pay off down the road.
Sean


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## loki09789 (Nov 19, 2003)

When people are saying that there is new material after BB, can you make a distinction:

1.  Is it material SEPARATE from your original system - maybe your instructor is dual/multi-art ranked and only begins cross instruction after BB in a base art?

2.  Is it material/theories/concepts within the art  TKD, Shotokan, MA... that is not introduced until the BB level?

Paul Martin


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 19, 2003)

I'd have to say "yes" to both.

Since black belt I've gained insights into the art and learned new techniques.

I've also crossed train and built upon that black belt foundation, adding from other systems to my "database"

Doing this lent insight into what I was doing in my primary art.


Regards,

Steve


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## rmcrobertson (Nov 20, 2003)

It's because there are very, very, very few people who have the time and/or the talent to get a meaningful black belt in one or two years.


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 20, 2003)

Yup...Chuck Norris got it in, what?  A year/year and a half.

THIRTY hours of training a week.  Five hours a day.  

That's a tad different than the twice a week (max)/45 minute classes program I've seen offered that will guarantee a six year old a black belt in two years.  

Haaaaaaaccccckkkkkkkk...PTUI!  

Mmm.  That was a hairball.  I have to quit grooming my cat so much.


Steve


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *Yup...Chuck Norris got it in, what?  A year/year and a half.
> 
> THIRTY hours of training a week.  Five hours a day.
> ...



Steve,

They have this salve you can put on your cats paws or your own fingers and then lick it off. It helps with those pesky hair balls. There is also a treat out that helps with this problem. I recommend the salve as it has a slight  licorish flavor.  

This way you and you cat can continue your relationship   or grooming.


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 20, 2003)

Well, Rich...if the salve is a prescription, then I'll have to go to the vet to get it.

He has REALLY cold hands.  And I don't much care for his thermometer, either.  Too big, if you ask me.

I'll think about it.


Steve


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## ABN (Nov 20, 2003)

They've also got cat food that has a hairball treament in it, I think Nutro makes it. You could give some to your cat and throw a few chunks of the dry stuff in your cereal, let it get soggy in the milk, wolf it down with the lucky charms and boom, hairball problem cured.

Just don't get too carried away especially if you strain your neck trying to clean yourself..... 

andy


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 20, 2003)

> Just don't get too carried away especially if you strain your neck trying to clean yourself



That's how I got the cervical joint disease and the bulging disc in C-5...and that pulled hamstring.  But it was worth it.

But this isn't a black belt technique..and off topic.  So I'll return to it.

------------------------------------------------

A number of the people who post to this forum have a very rich and well rounded martial history.  Many cross train, building on the foundation(s) acquired from various arts.

I got my black belt in Tae Kwon Do...five years later I started to finally hit my stride with the art.  I then started into Hapkido to fill in some blanks, and found that the art integrated beautifully with my original system.  Then it was on to Small Circle and Modern Arnis.  Later Brazilian jujitsu, Combat Submission wrestling, Sayoc Kali.

I honestly have to say that if properly approached, each art complements the other nicely.  They augment each other, they integrate with each other.   

So...whatever art you practice...once you get a black belt, I suspect there is MUCH more to learn within the system.  Its a big beautiful Martial Arts world out there, though...it won't hurt to check out some of the other things people are practicing.

Regards,

Steve Scott


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## loki09789 (Nov 25, 2003)

Here's are questions as far as length of study/cross training to all:

How much of the new material at the BB level is withheld because it is sort of the masters degree work of the art?  

Could you have handled the new material/techniques at an earlier level if it had been introduced then?  Was it explained why this BB material was not introed earlier in training?

Has anyone been tasked with mandatory cross training of some kind or a specific special area within the base art as part of the higher level training (ex.  Judoka told to take boxing to see it from the other side, or within an art, given the assignment of studying all the kicking elements of the art for the purpose of deciphering some conceptual mastery?

Basically, I gues what I want to know is how many have felt that all the stuff was right in front of them all along, but they just didn't have enough understanding to see it until later.  Or, did the way you were taught 'save' some material until after BB some systematic reason?

Mechanically, I think it is all there, it just takes work and thought to discover it.  Of course it will take longer than having an instructor show/tell you, but after BB we should be more personal researchers than spoon fed students.

Paul Martin


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## hkg (Jul 31, 2004)

SpiritFists936 said:
			
		

> why does it take so long to get a black belt in most martial arts systems? I mean when people find out it only usually takes 1 1/2 to 2 years to get a black belt in the system i take they freak out and say they have been in their system 6 years and still dont have a black belt. not to be concieted or anything but most of the time these 6 years vets arent even as good as our middle ranking belts, yet they have been in the martial arts 10 times longer, can someone explain this to me?
> 
> Thanks


Well i think it is very dependant on the art u are doin for example in the style of kung fu i practice it would take proably take 10 yrs to achieve the black sash, also there is only 5 sashes all togeather(u start with none). Where as my mate got his black belt in tkd after jst a couple of yrs but all he had to do was break boards and spar with gear on. Personaly  i think havin loads or hardly any belts is niether here nor there as what i think counts is if u can defend urself effectively agaisnt attacker(s) and this comes down to the trainin u do. but remember even when u are at the highest belt it does not nessesarly mean u hav mastered the art as i think u never stop learnin so this in a way negates belts completely as i tnink they are jst there for goal settin and obviously skill level but especialy begginers as once u progress through the art one should begin to look past the nxt belt but focus purely on the art itself.


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## 8253 (Jul 31, 2004)

Knowledge is the only true ranking


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## DeLamar.J (Jul 31, 2004)

SpiritFists936 said:
			
		

> why does it take so long to get a black belt in most martial arts systems? I mean when people find out it only usually takes 1 1/2 to 2 years to get a black belt in the system i take they freak out and say they have been in their system 6 years and still dont have a black belt. not to be concieted or anything but most of the time these 6 years vets arent even as good as our middle ranking belts, yet they have been in the martial arts 10 times longer, can someone explain this to me?
> 
> Thanks


Having a black belt actually means something in some schools. People hand them out way to easy. This is why a black belt is not so special anymore, it seems like everyone is a blackbelt these days. I was talking to a friend who thought he was going to get in a fight with this guy,  he said everyone says this guy is a black belt, and I said who is not a black belt these days, dont even worry about it. 
I think it should take about 6 years before you get a black belt.


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## TigerWoman (Jul 31, 2004)

In our school, most go to rank test min 3 months.  I think people should stay at in rank at least six months and know the forms, techniques really well.  So six months at white belt would probably seem to be a bit much, but at that level, conditioning is also needed. So six months times ten ranks = 60 months = 5 years.  I would vote for that, to get to 1st Dan black belt.  for what its worth... TW


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## DeLamar.J (Jul 31, 2004)

Yea, that sounds pretty good. But handing out belts like candy brings in the money so thats what most people will do.


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## auxprix (Jul 31, 2004)

DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> Having a black belt actually means something in some schools. People hand them out way to easy. This is why a black belt is not so special anymore, it seems like everyone is a blackbelt these days. I was talking to a friend who thought he was going to get in a fight with this guy,  he said everyone says this guy is a black belt, and I said who is not a black belt these days, dont even worry about it.
> I think it should take about 6 years before you get a black belt.



Agreed.

If you're at a good Judo dojo, you can expect to wait 6-10 years for the black belt. I've heard of some that offer it in less, but I can't imagine that anyone could understand the concepts on the level that I think Black belts should (unless they train for hours daily).

This is all personal opinion, but I think that schools should be engineered around the premis that the black belt (or equivical high rank) is a lofty goal that everyone can attain with time and hard work. It's nice to see people wearing their black belts and knowing that they have a very good grasp on the techniques that I am studying.


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## kenpo tiger (Jul 31, 2004)

It isn't about the belt.  

It's about learning the basics of your art, training to get the mechanics set, and then, once you reach black belt, beginning to perfect and master your art.  

Time and teaching.  KT


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## brothershaw (Jul 31, 2004)

Here is the real problem/issue with comparison of time frames. 
Somes styles especially those that are technique based( you have to know x amount of techniques to move on) cant be truly compared time frame wise to styles that are more principal based ( and taught principal based).
The person learning a more technique based style may upfront after a couple of years appear to have more skill and knowledge in their bag, opposed to a person who is learning more from a principle base that they have to pull applications from. In plainer english the less esoteric the style the easier it may APPEAR or be to have some skill in a shorter period of time. Over the long haul it MAY even out.
   Even comparing learning aikido techniques to jujitsu techniques, for promotion over time you might be expected to have alot more principles incorporated into your aikido techniques or waza than for a given jujitsu technique generally speaking. 
   So the real issue in time for black belt or instructor level is how much stuff is your instructor trying to teach you, and what are they looking for in your execution. THe more complex things included ( internalization, chi/ki, unbalancing etc, and the less general strength, and athleticism involved the longer its going to take.
     Not to say you necesarily need alot of complex stuff to defend yourself.


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## brothershaw (Jul 31, 2004)

Perhaps a bigger thing to think about, is not how long it will take to get to black but will I be able to do this when i am 50 or 60?


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## Disco (Jul 31, 2004)

Perhaps a bigger thing to think about, is not how long it will take to get to black but will I be able to do this when i am 50 or 60?

Good question, which has a deverse answer. First and foremost, it would depend upon the individual and how protective they are/were during their training. Secondly, it depends upon the particular discipline one studies. The harder styles, to me anyway, the ones where the body takes a lot of punishment; i.e. Judo, Hapkido, Jujitsu and the like, will take their toll on the body and limit many in the older years. As for all the instant black belts running around out there, I can't change what has transpired and honestly I really don't give a darn anymore. The old saying that cream will rise to the top, comes to mind. People don't even have to train anymore if they have a computer. Just print out a certificate and get a DVD and there you go. Bottom line to all this rant is you do what's right for you. If you believe in the arts and really want to train, then you will. If your on the other side of the coin, then it all depends on what the meaning of is - is?


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## Phoenix44 (Aug 1, 2004)

I don't mind if you get a black belt in 2 years--as long as you understand that you've only been training for 2 years.  No, I don't believe that the 2-year black belt is as skilled, overall, as a green belt who's trained for 5 years.  The belt doesn't confer the skill.

In our school it takes 5 years plus to get a black belt.  Our black belt means we have achieved a degree of control over the BASICS of our art, so that we can start our real training in application and advanced technique.  It doesn't mean we're Bruce Lee.  

Our school's been around for 35 years.  I can count on my fingers how many black belts we have.  We have 4 nidans--each have trained 15 years plus.  And only our director is above that.

Fact is, you can buy a black belt for about 5 bucks.


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## brothershaw (Aug 1, 2004)

"Fact is, you can buy a black belt for about 5 bucks."
Can that be Fed-Ex'd I would hate to have to wait 2 weeks for my black belt to show up in the mail.  

Just kidding!!


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## old sensei (Oct 12, 2008)

The length of time it takes to achieve a black belt, I believe is according to the skill level of the student. I had one student, who at 16, earned his BB in three years.- He ate and drank Shotokan Karate, and literally slept in his gi. They were private lessons, several times a week and at the end, he was catching arrows shot at him, just for practice!  I had three other karateka who earned their BB in 18 months, which sounds like too short a time, I know, but they learned kata faster than anyone I have ever seen and they practiced together every day, even on class days- I had three other black belts from my yudanshakai judge their test and all agreeed with the rank. Black belt is according to skill level and feeling the art, and anyone, regardless of time in the dojo, who has achieved that standard, has earned it.


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## Deaf Smith (Oct 12, 2008)

SpiritFists936 said:


> why does it take so long to get a black belt in most martial arts systems? I mean when people find out it only usually takes 1 1/2 to 2 years to get a black belt in the system i take they freak out and say they have been in their system 6 years and still dont have a black belt. not to be concieted or anything but most of the time these 6 years vets arent even as good as our middle ranking belts, yet they have been in the martial arts 10 times longer, can someone explain this to me?
> 
> Thanks


 
1.5 to 2  years? Long? No Spirit, that isn't long. That's short. That' sadly short. That cheepens the term 'black belt'.

Deaf


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## exile (Oct 12, 2008)

SpiritFists936 said:


> not to be concieted or anything but most of the time these 6 years vets arent even as good as our middle ranking belts



Ummm.... how do you know that they're not as good, SF? They've been doing it 6 years and your people have been doing it a year or so at the same training frequency, and your people are better than they are? Strong claim&#8212;what's your evidence here?




Deaf Smith said:


> 1.5 to 2  years? Long? No Spirit, that isn't long. That's short. That' sadly short. That cheepens the term 'black belt'.
> Deaf



Yeah. That's like an 18 month 'Ph.D' or a two year 'M.D.' The concept of a black belt is tied to the idea that you have a grasp on the basics of your system to enough of an extent that you have the basic competence to start exploring on your own, specializing and developing your knowledge increasingly independently. My experience is, dedicated and frequent practice and training for 4 years and up, no less, can get you there in any of the TMAs I know anything about&#8212;there's that much depth and richness to the basics in such systems. I'm going to be pretty skeptical of anyone who tells me that a beginner in karate, TKD, TSD, Hapkido or any other belt-based MA should be able to get that kind of grasp of the basics in 18 months or so. If your system says it's possible in that system, that tells me something about the depth of your system which isn't very flattering. I could be wrong, sure, and I'm willing to have my mind changed. But you have a big burden of proof and a hell of a lot of tight reasoning to do before you persuade me&#8212;or anyone else, I suspect.


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 12, 2008)

Get your Black Belt in 12 easy lessons! :BSmeter: :bs:

It's not 'impossible' to get a black belt in 1/2 to 2 years......but lets just say if there's a school full of such black belts.......MCDOJO!


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## newy085 (Oct 12, 2008)

Check the date on the last post before today. Someone could have started on that day, and got their 1st Dan in any art.

Anyway, while we are on the topic, I don't think black belts across styles should be compared. All a black belts means is that you have a solid ground in the basics of that art. If the instructors believe it only takes 1 year to understand what there art has to offer, fine by them. I also think that the amount of training, and the level of understanding, as well as their proficiency they can show after the time spent training is more of a determining factor.


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## exile (Oct 12, 2008)

newy085 said:


> Check the date on the last post before today. Someone could have started on that day, and got their 1st Dan in any art.



Yeah, but what the OP suggested is that that length of time is _unreasonably long_. The latest discussion is I think just revisiting the question of how much time is in fact reasonable to expect for mastery of the basics in a MA with any substance. 



newy085 said:


> Anyway, while we are on the topic, I don't think black belts across styles should be compared.



Maybe not, but that's exactly what you're doing with your immediately following comment (which I happen to agree with completely):



newy085 said:


> All a black belts means is that you have a solid ground in the basics of that art.



Right. So that tells you something about MA 1, where a grasp of the basics takes you 4 years on a give training frequency, as vs. MA 2, where a comparable grasp takes you a year and a half or so. 




newy085 said:


> If the instructors believe it only takes 1 year to understand what there art has to offer, fine by them. I also think that the amount of training, and the level of understanding, as well as their proficiency they can show after the time spent training is more of a determining factor.



A determining factor of _what?_ More likely, level of understanding and proficiency are _outcomes_, not determining factors. Sure, people (including instructors) are free to think whatever they want to think... but if a grasp of the basics takes a third the time in one system as in another, assuming a given training frequency and comparably talented beginners in both, what exactly does it say about the content of the system when a student has mastered the basics of one in a third the time of the other?


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## newy085 (Oct 13, 2008)

exile said:


> A determining factor of _what?_ More likely, level of understanding and proficiency are _outcomes_, not determining factors. Sure, people (including instructors) are free to think whatever they want to think... but if a grasp of the basics takes a third the time in one system as in another, assuming a given training frequency and comparably talented beginners in both, what exactly does it say about the content of the system when a student has mastered the basics of one in a third the time of the other?


 
Sorry, just re-read my post again and it was pretty disjointed, and really didn't say where I was coming from. That is the point that I was trying to make. There are some arts with not much content and there are others with lots of content.

I'm not really sure of what you mean by saying that understanding and proficiency are outcomes. In my way of thinking a solid understanding of the art you are studying, and the ability to perform the art a high level are factors that should be considered as to whether a student is deserving of a black belt. That is why I stated them as the determing factors of the belt, instead of time spent training.

This isn't the place to discuss it but it goes along the line of would you rather have 100 techniques that you could do ok, or 10 that you could do excellent. Either that or it could just be a belt factory.


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## newy085 (Oct 13, 2008)

Oh and I'm not sure if you got that my first sentence was meant to be a joke. I think it is a good question to look back into, especially since I wasn't around here then.


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## HM2PAC (Oct 13, 2008)

newy wrote:


> would you rather have 100 techniques that you could do ok, or 10 that you could do excellent. Either that or it could just be a belt factory.



Excellent point.

When I was in HS wrestling, there was a nearby school that taught only 2 take-downs. Each wrestler learned the basic single-leg and the basic double-leg. And that was all they ever did. 

The problem was, you could rarely stop them from executing perfectly. They never got involved with upper body takedowns, fireman carries, or anything flashy. They would not be sucked into doing anything dumb. They just waited until the time was right and capitalized.

At the freshman level they were good, but their seniors were unstoppable. Four years of the same thing over and over and over. Lots of state champs out of that school.


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## newy085 (Oct 13, 2008)

HM2PAC said:


> newy wrote:
> 
> 
> Excellent point.
> ...


 

That is the perfect post to show how a person can be at a black belt level quicker becuase there is less content in the system. It actually makes the other art more effective in the early stages. However, imagine if they could execute all the other techniques to that level. It would take a lot longer, but they would be unstoppable.


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## Big Don (Oct 14, 2008)

> Why does it take so long to get a Black Belt in most systems?


This question reminds me of the old joke:
Why does divorce cost so much?
Because it is worth it.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 14, 2008)

HM2PAC said:


> newy wrote:
> 
> 
> Excellent point.
> ...


 
Thats great training, and works well, UNTIL you run across the school/artist that practices preventing/reversing/countering those techniques... then you are left with... what exactly?

A hammer and a wrench are great tools, until you need a saw. 



newy085 said:


> would you rather have 100 techniques that you could do ok, or 10 that you could do excellent.



Id prefer 5 I could do excellent, and 95 I can do ok.  It's a better balance.


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 14, 2008)

newy085 said:


> That is the perfect post to show how a person can be at a black belt level quicker becuase there is less content in the system. It actually makes the other art more effective in the early stages. However, imagine if they could execute all the other techniques to that level. It would take a lot longer, but they would be unstoppable.


 Which sounds better in theory than in practice......in reality it's why boxers and muay thai fighters win fights.......they practice a half dozen or so techniques to the point of perfection.........or as Bruce Lee said

*&#8220;I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.&#8221; - Bruce Lee*

While it's good to know a number of techniques in order to teach others to find which techniques work best for them, in practice you will only master a few that work very well for you.

That's not the say that one shouldn't study a wide variety of responses.......but the result is the ability to deal with a BROADER spectrum of situations......not to deal with specific situations better.  For example, someone who has studied a broad spectrum of techniques who enters a boxing ring under those conditions is likely to lose to a boxer who has spent the same time studying boxing.


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## HM2PAC (Oct 14, 2008)

newy wrote:


> That is the perfect post to show how a person can be at a black belt level quicker because there is less content in the system. It actually makes the other art more effective in the early stages. However, imagine if they could execute all the other techniques to that level. It would take a lot longer, but they would be unstoppable.



Yes, but I was only talking about their take-downs. They spent most of their effort on mat work.

Cryozombie wrote:



> Thats great training, and works well, UNTIL you run across the school/artist that practices preventing/reversing/countering those techniques... then you are left with... what exactly?



Then you are left with a really good match-up.



In retrospect my point to bring up the HS wrestling was this:

1. They knew the basics, and executed them in such fashion that counters were many times unproductive. Did they get countered? Of course, but they usually had the upper hand.

2. We new what they were going to do. Everyone knew what they were going to do. We practiced counters, not just for them, but for everyone. In the end, speed kills and oftentimes they were just too fast.

Looking back on these wrestlers, many of them had been on mats since they were 5 or 6. These were the guys who could bend you into something Gumby-esque. I would liken them to BB's that take a long time. But some of their wrestlers started in HS, and with good intensive training became proficient themselves.


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## HM2PAC (Oct 14, 2008)

This is a pretty good conversation for a thread that hadn't been touched for 4 years.

Something that may help would be an agreed upon definition of a Black Belt.

I've heard that it is someone who is versed in the basics well enough to begin learning. I've also heard some believe it to be full/complete mastery of the material at hand.


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 14, 2008)

HM2PAC said:


> newy wrote:
> 
> 
> Yes, but I was only talking about their take-downs. They spent most of their effort on mat work.
> ...



Good points.......for example, if you have one guy that has studied reversals, blocks, traps, kicks, punches, etc, etc, etc...a few hundred times apiece, knows each so-so, but has a broad body of knowledge...........and he fights a guy who has LITERALLY practiced the same two or three combinations of punches tens of thousands of times, who knows those two or three combinations INTIMATELY..........it is far from foregone that the guy with the breadth of knowledge will defeat this guy with such depth.........my money's on the guy with two or three combinations of punches, two or three kicks, and two or three takedowns, two or three ground techniques, etc, who can put them together SEEMLESSLY!


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## celtic_crippler (Oct 14, 2008)

Summary: A black belt is supposed to denote that the one wearing it is an expert. One does not become an expert at something over-night. It takes years of practice, sutdy, and effort.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 14, 2008)

Celtic Crippler said it very well.

Some schools just require more of a student than know how to do a form or "X" number of self defense moves. Some schools require commitment, an in depth knowledge of the forms and techniques than is taught the first day of learning them, some demand a certain mental awareness and maturity that not all require.  Some schools require more than someone paying dues and testing fees


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## newy085 (Oct 15, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Which sounds better in theory than in practice......in reality it's why boxers and muay thai fighters win fights.......they practice a half dozen or so techniques to the point of perfection.........or as Bruce Lee said
> 
> *I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times. - Bruce Lee*
> 
> ...


 
I love that quote. And I agree with you, that a martial artist should never  practice ONLY a handful of techniques. I think that the worst thing any martial artist should do is close their mind to anything.

But they should have those handful of techniques that are their bread and butter. That when the chips are down, they can execute mindlessly. I think that at least half of your training should be dedicated to these 'basic' techniques.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 29, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> Summary: A black belt is supposed to denote that the one wearing it is an expert. One does not become an expert at something over-night. It takes years of practice, study, and effort.


Agree and disagree; first the disagree:

Most styles that I am familiar with do not consider a blackbelt to be expert, merely proficient; proficient in technique and a proficient fighter.  One who has "learned how to learn."  Using kendo as an example, a blackbelt is considered a beginner.  A second degree is someone who is developing a fuller understanding of kendo.  Master, or expert is generally not until fourth or fifth dan.

While proficiency does not come over night either, depending upon the number and type of techniques a form has becoming proficient in the basics can take a different amount of time from school to school.  

Having said that, I do believe that a blackbelt represents a _proficient fighter in that style_, which is different from being proficient in techniques and forms.  One can be a very proficient kicker or puncher, kicking and punching with the proficiency to break boards, bricks, or whatever, and with perfect form, but still not be able to fight.  If you can't fight proficiently, but hold a black belt, then there is no point to learning the forms and techniques, particularly if you quit after you get your black belt, which most students do.

Now, where I agree:  to be an expert in anything takes a very lengthy time.  If a style holds that blackbelt is an expert, but hands them out in two years, then I would have very serious reservations about either the curriculum, the quality of the instructor, or more than likely, both.  

Getting back to my kendo example with regards to where one is considered 'expert' in the style, time in kyu ranks is _at least_ two years, another year to second degree, two years from second to third, three from third to fourth, and four from fourth to fifth.  That is eight to twelve years to fourth/fifth dan, plus there are minimum age requirements for higher dan ranks.

And that is for the use of _one _weapon!  So, regarding Crippler's last sentence,


celtic_crippler said:


> One does not become an expert at something over-night. It takes years of practice, study, and effort.


I agree 200%.

Daniel


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## zeeberex (Oct 29, 2008)

SpiritFists936 said:


> why does it take so long to get a black belt in most martial arts systems? I mean when people find out it only usually takes 1 1/2 to 2 years to get a black belt in the system i take they freak out and say they have been in their system 6 years and still dont have a black belt. not to be concieted or anything but most of the time these 6 years vets arent even as good as our middle ranking belts, yet they have been in the martial arts 10 times longer, can someone explain this to me?
> 
> Thanks



Did you ever stop to think the question you're asking is the wrong one? Belts are over emphasized and with all the "honorary ones out there, it's not a fair measure of ability.

The Way I learned it was, for each technique, sound muscle memory comes after 1000 correct repetitions, and can be further perfected over every five hundred repetitions. So do the math and apply it to the system of your choice. What one does with the higher level stuff after the basics, will obviously depend on the individual.


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## zeeberex (Oct 29, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> Summary: A black belt is supposed to denote that the one wearing it is an expert. One does not become an expert at something over-night. It takes years of practice, sutdy, and effort.




Actually it doesn't, it denotes you have mastered the "basics" to a satisfactory level, and are ready to begin the real journey, 2nd dan and beyond.


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## newy085 (Oct 29, 2008)

zeeberex said:


> Actually it doesn't, it denotes you have mastered the "basics" to a satisfactory level, and are ready to begin the real journey, 2nd dan and beyond.


 
That might be what the belt symbolizes in your style, but that may differ from school to school. That is why I believe that a black belt is only important to the person wearing it, and to a lesser extent important to people within your style. Because they are the ones that understand what it has taken to be able to wear it.

In my school we have a similar view of the black belt but to write off celtic_cripplers views based on your experience is not right.


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## Glycerine0160 (Oct 30, 2008)

Personally, I've only been taking JKD for a year. I go about 3 times a week.   

I'm only now really starting to do it at home. It's a matter of what you want out of it. Knowing a technique is good, but if you can't perform it fast (and smooth duh) by training it fast, it's useless unless you are fighting someone with no experience. 

Also, it's obvious to an extent a larger tool bag is useful, but I have never used any of what I know yet if ever, but I did wrestle in highschool. What I learned from that is, you stick with what you know. I used the same cross face cradle everytime. I won a lot once I got the ropes down. I had a few other moves, and anything beyond that would be situational. But I also did lose a match (when I was kicking this kid's ***) and was like, "**** it let me try something new" and boom he got me in a headlock (which in wrestling means game over) 

So it's of my personal belief (even though I have little experience compared to many others)

-keep it simple
-practice them down to a science
-work on speed/conditioning
-overtime, you may expand your "actual" toolbag slowly

(this to me is what a good fighter is determined by (in terms of technique of moves.) Moving up in the ranks just means you can perform multiple moves when recognized too. Example, doing good on a multiple choice test does not actually translate to knowledge)


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## zeeberex (Oct 31, 2008)

newy085 said:


> That might be what the belt symbolizes in your style, but that may differ from school to school. That is why I believe that a black belt is only important to the person wearing it, and to a lesser extent important to people within your style. Because they are the ones that understand what it has taken to be able to wear it.
> 
> In my school we have a similar view of the black belt but to write off celtic_cripplers views based on your experience is not right.



Was not my intent to write him off, just point out my own experience. No ego intended. the way I always heard the journey described was that the belt starts as white, you progress to black belt, and as you train over time and the belt's color degrades through wear, it ultimately becomes white again and end where you begin. Training is a circle.


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## bostonbomber (Oct 31, 2008)

No offense to other systems, but this thread really makes me appreciate TCMA where there are no belt rankings!


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## celtic_crippler (Oct 31, 2008)

zeeberex said:


> Actually it doesn't, it denotes you have mastered the "basics" to a satisfactory level, and are ready to begin the real journey, 2nd dan and beyond.


 
Depends on your style, buddy. 

You can get a black in TKD in under a year, so yeah...maybe there.

It takes 4-5 years in Kenpo....


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 31, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> Depends on your style, buddy.
> 
> You can get a black in TKD in under a year, so yeah...maybe there


Sadly, there are places that do this, though the average is about two years, with a reasonably sized minority taking three.



celtic_crippler said:


> It takes 4-5 years in Kenpo....


Back in the day, that's how long it generally took in taekwondo as well.  As you observed, not so now.  I wish that it was that way still; it would weed out the 'I just wanna belt' crowd.

Daniel


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## celtic_crippler (Oct 31, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Back in the day, that's how long it generally took in taekwondo as well. As you observed, not so now. I wish that it was that way still; it would weed out the 'I just wanna belt' crowd.
> 
> Daniel


 
No doubt, I've told more than one person that if all they want is a "black belt" in under a year, then they should simply order it from Century and be done with it....that way they'd save some money ..and in the end would be just as skilled.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 31, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> No doubt, I've told more than one person that if all they want is a "black belt" in under a year, then they should simply order it from Century and be done with it....that way they'd save some money ..and in the end would be just as skilled.


Actually, they might be better off; they won't have the false confidence that they can actually defend themselves with what they've 'learned' in their streamlined accelerated McDojo masters club.

Daniel


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## allenjp (Oct 31, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> Depends on your style, buddy.
> 
> You can get a black in TKD in under a year, so yeah...maybe there.
> 
> It takes 4-5 years in Kenpo....



Yeah, and in BJJ it takes at the very least that long. Most don't get bb until 6 to 8 years in. And beside the time, if you don't show you can seriously compete with other bb's on the mat, you're not going to get it. Bablu Sobral, the MMA fighter, trains with Gracie Barra, and he had his Brown belt for 5 years before Master Carlos Jr. promoted him to black. So if someone tells me they have a bb in BJJ, I can be reasonbly sure that they are at the level of a master of the art.


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## JadeDragon3 (Oct 31, 2008)

I know in BJJ it takes a long time to get a black belt.  Something like 10 years.  It took me 4 years to get mine in Sil Lum Kung Fu.  A friend of mine that does BJJ got his black belt under Carlson Gracie Jr. in I think about 10 years.


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## zeeberex (Oct 31, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> Depends on your style, buddy.
> 
> You can get a black in TKD in under a year, so yeah...maybe there.
> 
> It takes 4-5 years in Kenpo....



I'll agree with the first line of that, mileage varies with the style.


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## JadeDragon3 (Oct 31, 2008)

Bill Wallace got his bb in TKD in 8 months.


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## allenjp (Oct 31, 2008)

To jade dragon 3:

Dude, your avatar is just disturbing.


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## JadeDragon3 (Nov 3, 2008)

allenjp said:


> To jade dragon 3:
> 
> Dude, your avatar is just disturbing.


 
Why thank you.  I tried to get one that best represented me and my attitude.


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## terryl965 (Nov 3, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Bill Wallace got his bb in TKD in 8 months.


 
But Bill Wallace was already doing Karate for a long time.


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## KP. (Nov 19, 2008)

My school's fastest black sash in it's 35 year history was just under 6 years. The guy who earned it had already earned several other BB's in other styles.

The next closest has been almost 8 years.

My Sifu is of the view that once someone has earned a black belt, they are ready to start learning kung fu. 

He has a policy of simply refusing to take any student who asks a question about how long it takes to earn a black belt, if it in anyway sounds like he is asking about "how long till i'm bruce lee" and not "what is it I should expect it terms of how hard and long I must commit to become proficient in this art?"

There's a TKD place near by. He usually responds with something along the lines of "If you want a black belt in a year or two, go there. If you want to study martial arts, forget about belts."

Though he still does belts so people will feel like they're progressing. He used to not have a belt system at all, but implemented one due to customer demand.


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