# Is size a concern?



## Glycerine0160 (Jul 11, 2008)

Just curious, for a while I was trying to make it up to 150-160lbs when i was at 125. I'm now contently at 142 and over period getting there, I didn't really feel size would matter for JKD if I ever needed to apply it. However, sometimes I find it very difficult to ignore the fact some people can punch a lot harder, and I'm not quite sure it's any slower than mine. (I had always lent to the idea that smaller equals faster)

Should I attempt to get bigger? I do lift twice a week, just to keep my strength up, but I make no effort to bulk up or get any bigger than I am now. Just strength purposes. After reading some message boards about if size helps, it seemed most people though it was an advantage. Thoughts?


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## Sukerkin (Jul 11, 2008)

At your age, I would say don't worry about it.  You haven't finished growing yet possibly.  Plus, some people are just slender.  

Until middle age I was about 10 and a half stone all my life {even counting the added internal metal-work :lol:}.  I was six foot but now I'm an inch or so shorter due to compressed bones in my neck (being headbutted by a bike'll do that to you !).

I did Lau Gar kung Fu, a relative of JKD and never found my size a handicap.


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## terryl965 (Jul 11, 2008)

I would have to agree with Sukerkin here and remember Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris was not that big and they packed a punch. Proper technique will always win in the long run.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 11, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Until middle age I was about 10 and a half stone all my life {even counting the added internal metal-work :lol:}.


 
How much is a Stone?


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## Archangel M (Jul 11, 2008)

I was 138-140 lbs till my mid 20's. Im up to a lean 178 now. Just be consistent with your exercise and diet and dont go crazy.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 11, 2008)

Hi *FC*.  A Stone of weight is 14 pounds and there are 16 ounces in a pound.  Four stones is the standard weight of a sack of potatoes, two of which constitute a hundredweight.

I dont know why people seem to think that Imperial measures are complicated :angel: :lol:.

EDIT:  For those interested in how to measure things properly rather than using this heretical metric malarkey, have a look here:

http://home.clara.net/brianp/quickref.html

P.S.  Watch out for some things that might sound familiar because the American 'versions' are different ('gallons' is the one that springs immediately to mind).


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 11, 2008)

size and weight do have some bearing on all encounters but in the  practice of a system it should not.
 A person pushing 200 lbs would normally be expected to hit with more force than one that weighs 110. Like wise someone that can bench press 400 lbs should be able to put forth more force than someone who can only bench 100 lbs.
That is one side of the equation. The other is knowledge and ability. Being bigger and stronger dose not mean all that much if you do not know how to use that size and strength


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## LanJie (Jul 11, 2008)

If you have a system that teaches good body mechanics then you can put 142 pounds plus your kinetic energy into your strikes.  This will make you very powerful without the need to resort to a lot of protein drinks.


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## Glycerine0160 (Jul 11, 2008)

Hmm. 

I do understand that technique and skill is what is most important. But if two people are at equal skill levels, would size be something that would make the difference?


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## LanJie (Jul 12, 2008)

I think this is rare.

In my best techniques, they create openings to the floating ribs, an elbow strike to the temple, a poke to the eyes when the other person is sealed.

If you have good conditioning (hard forearms, shins, and knuckles), and are fast, and have good technique the first person to make a mistake is the loser.

I am talking about self defense situations not anything like MMA.

Regards,
Steve


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## Adept (Jul 13, 2008)

Being more heavily muscled than your opponent is almost always an advantage. It gives you greater power, as well as more natural 'armour'.

It is important to disillusion yourself to myths like 'being muscle-bound reduces your flexibility' or 'being muscle-bound makes you slower'.



LanJie said:


> If you have a system that teaches good body mechanics then you can put 142 pounds plus your kinetic energy into your strikes. This will make you very powerful without the need to resort to a lot of protein drinks.


 
But it will never make you as powerful as the guy who trains just as hard, and goes to the gym and takes his protein as well.



Glycerine0160 said:


> But if two people are at equal skill levels, would size be something that would make the difference?


 
Yes. A good big fighter will beat a good little fighter every time.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 13, 2008)

I agree *Adept*, indeed I would've said in the past that I *totally* agree.   

But some comments came up in a recent thread I hosted (to explore the positive issues (and some of the myths) of women and fighting) that caused me to ponder.  It all boils down to relative strengths and weaknesses in the end, because we know that old adage about things 'never being equal' is true.  So if an opponent is bigger and stronger than you, you have to find a way to maximise your advantages and minimise his.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 13, 2008)

Everyone has different attributes that they bring to the table.  Size/Mass is an attribute that can be *of great use* in a physical confrontation.  Other attributes like speed, vision, mental make up, etc. all can be of advantage in the right set of circumstances and how you bring them into play.

Personally, try to be the best you can be in terms of physical fitness and improve your attributes as much as you can.  Also during the same course work your technique and improve in that area as well.  Then if you are ever in a violent encounter you will have good attributes and technique working for you! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (Balance)


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## Glycerine0160 (Jul 13, 2008)

I think I found my answer. Maybe I will try to increase my appetite again, bulk some then cut my weight. I have become a lot stronger since my first attempt. 

I'm 140 now,
I bench 155lbs
dead lift 275lbs   5 reps 3 sets

Any ways to keep my hand speed up though? Punching with 5 lb weights?

btw, I do sprints and long distance jogs too.
and I play tennis.

I'm in pretty good shape,
I attend to become a police officer soon enough, preferablly the sheriff department like my sifu.


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## Archangel M (Jul 13, 2008)

The bigger they are the harder they fall. They also punch, kick, and choke harder.


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## Em MacIntosh (Jul 14, 2008)

Contrary to popular belief a bigger muscle is a faster muscle or at least has more potential to be faster than a small muscle.  Bruce Lee was all about _functional muscle_ and highly stressed body building as a way to achieve much greater power and speed than learning muscle memory of technique alone.  Body building also greatly increases bone density and I'm not sure but I'm confident that as long as you don't injure them your ligaments and connective tissues will become more resilient to compensate for the new muscle mass.  The maximum strength lies in the connective tissue, not the muscle itself, ex. a person having an epileptic seizure is capable of breaking their own bones especieally if restrained.  I'd say do some body building but have clear goals in mind, maybe not a particular weight, just do it until you find your optimum size and remember, if it's not functional muscle it's just a waste of the food used to maintain it.  I think getting a little heavier than you want to be is the best way and then toning it down from there.  Since it's functional muscle, make sure you're toned in a way that represents the way you move, don't go by any body builder's physique, go by what your body tells you is progress.  Personally I prefer isometric exercises like push-ups, wrestling and carrying groceries to enhance my tone but I could use some iron myself.  Cross training your martial arts with body building is always a good idea, just get your priorities straight, you're body building to improve your martial arts abilities, not vice-versa.


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## Semper Fi (Jul 15, 2008)

Glycerine0160 said:


> Any ways to keep my hand speed up though? Punching with 5 lb weights?



That will do nothing for your hand speed.  

Just continue to practice punching.   If you had one of those elastic things that you can wrap from one hand across your back to the other hand and punch that will help with resistance in the proper fashion.


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## Brooder (Oct 9, 2008)

What I have always believed is that it does not matter how big, strong, fast, etc you are, but what you know how to do to another person.


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## OnAQuest (Oct 28, 2008)

Size Matters.

But so does Speed. (But muscles help with speed)

So does Timing.

So does Flexibility.

So does Technique.

-----

Think of it this way. I like to play video games, and I'll use one that many people can relate to ..."World of Warcraft" 

Your character has many attributes (much like you do in real life as a martial artist).

If you want your character to be the best he can be.....you'll want to maximize ALL of his/her attributes.

If your speed gets better, you become a better Martial Artist.

If your timing gets better, you become a better Martial Artist.

If your Technique gets better......you get the point.

---

I'm only a Yellow belt, but I just competed in my first tournament where I sparred against 2 other similar belts.

I beat them both 5-0, and I can say it was mostly just because I was stronger and faster. (My technique and flexibility need LOTS of work!)

---

In summary:

All of the Attributes matter.

If you're interested in putting on some size and maybe getting a good routine that won't burn you out, send me a PM. I'm only a Yellow in Martial Arts but I've got my Black Belt in the Weight Room. =)

Justin


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## Glycerine0160 (Oct 28, 2008)

Just figured I would give an update since someone posted here recently. Was in a bit of a conondrum with my lifting. 

http://www.trulyhuge.com/news/tips21a.htm


I do a power lifting scheme. Recently, I've been getting some flack from a person in my martial arts who studies sports medicines. He's very good and very knowledgeable, and told me I would benefit more with core exercises and higher reps but still doing compound exercises.

Anyway, as for size, I lost my desire to care. My lifts are still making progress so I'm still getting stronger and still staying my size.
I run a 3x5 program (3 sets 5 reps)  i weight 142lbs for a while now
bench 170lbs  dead lift 290lbs  squat 205lbs

anyway, I also do a little yoga. That sports medicine guy in my JKD establishment told me yoga actually will probably work against my lifting. Lifting requires your body to go in fixed postural positions. Yoga teaches you different positions that might counter act those. 

I gave up getting bigger simply because it's really difficult and I realized I can hit pretty hard for my size. MORE IMPORTANTLY, I feel like I'm less tense (as has always been a huge problem for me) and I take my time with my drills in class. _Someone on here was right. The best way to get your punches faster and stronger is to bluntly just practice them. _I put a lot more emphasis on core things like "keeping your guard up" going slower until I have the drill down , and most importantly, I'm practicing a lot more.  I practice in the car, at home when I can, and ESPECIALLY in the gym. during sets I start hacking away at my straight blast and other drills. 

*Overall here is my conclusion to size*
I imagine most of us train for a variety of reasons but most of all, self defense. I also imagine "if" it ever came to a situation of fighting, it will be a street fighter who simply cannot fight. Regardless, even if it's another martial artist, chances are someone else will be more skilled and have put more time into it. Someone who has 500 hours of martial arts behind their belt _should_ beat someone who has 300 hours. I also look at size as, everything has a pro and con. Some people may think, "big people can be fast"  (because they have stronger muscles to push them) While that is true, not faster. I compare them to cars. A sleak, fast, lighter car will go faster than a big ford truck. Sure a big ford truck has a bigger engine, but that also means it must compensate for pushing it. A person with big muscles may be quite fast, but his arms must also push that excess muscle weight.


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## OnAQuest (Oct 28, 2008)

> Anyway, as for size, I lost my desire to care. My lifts are still making progress so I'm still getting stronger and still staying my size.
> I run a 3x5 program (3 sets 5 reps)  i weight 142lbs for a while now
> bench 170lbs  dead lift 290lbs  squat 205lbs



I highly recommend taking a break from this routine every 6-8 weeks and mixing in some higher reps. 4 sets for 8-12 reps.

You will kill your joints if you keep training in the 5 rep range without rest.

Justin


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## Glycerine0160 (Oct 28, 2008)

OnAQuest said:


> I highly recommend taking a break from this routine every 6-8 weeks and mixing in some higher reps. 4 sets for 8-12 reps.
> 
> You will kill your joints if you keep training in the 5 rep range without rest.
> 
> Justin


 

Oh I know. The program tells you to take a week off every 3-4 weeks.
I havn't taken one off in like 2 months though. 
Thanks for pressing the importance of rest. I'll make sure I take next week off.

(it's only a twice a week lift. it stresses your body needs rest. Your body grows on your off days, not in the gym.)

btw, the link I posted mentions why heavy reps are good and why high reps are useless. That's a different program than mine (although mine is Pavel too)


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## CDA4555 (Nov 5, 2008)

Glycerine0160 said:


> I think I found my answer. Maybe I will try to increase my appetite again, bulk some then cut my weight. I have become a lot stronger since my first attempt.
> 
> I'm 140 now,
> I bench 155lbs
> ...



   Sounds like you're doing just fine.  I've been in law enforcement for almost a decade and my size (5-4 and 155 lbs) has never been an issue.  In my younger days I used to be into the "size" factor reaching about 185 lbs at my heaviest...I believe the me "now" would beat the living daylights out of the me "back then" because I'm faster and smarter.

Today, having functional strength is the key to success.   Eat healthy, train smart and often.  Be a well rounded fighter but also train your mental attitude to be positive and ready to go.  Size difference only matter in combat sports like the UFC, on the street, however, the battle goes to the one who is most prepared.

Good Luck.


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## Glycerine0160 (Nov 5, 2008)

BIG 180



So after long discussions with this kid Jake in my martial arts place, (he is a sports medicine guy) he finally convinced me heavy lifting (low reps, heavy weights) was not the best fit for JKD. (but not that it was necessarily bad, just not as suitable as other things) He mentioned, a marital art like Systema would do well with this program because they use brute strength and such in their art. But JKD is NOT about strength, I don't care if you are an original or Insasanto follower. 
Power= Velocity x Force
Being able to bench press does not really fully convert to a stronger punch. I know some people gave the example, 400 lb bencher vs 100lb bencher. 

Well, firstly, that's such a huge size difference that can easily be contributed by other elements.
Nextly, Bruce was small and hit very hard. 

So my routine is much different. 
I do higher reps and ditched clean jerks and dead lifts. 
so instead of 5 reps, it's more 8-12 reps
it's devised of core and balance and strength exercises.

most importantly. after reading fighting methods
I started jump roping a lot. I got real lazy with cardio, so I'm doing this all the time now. I jump rope on lift days, and use the treadmill or eliptical on cardio days. 

My sister had these silly things from Tao Bo. They are pretty much elastic bands. You are supposed to put the elastic ring on your shoe and put the handle in your hand. Instead, I put them on each side of a door knob, and I do the circle punches. (I apalogize for not knowing the terminolgy on this, especially on such a core technique.)

thanks for all the insight though on size and what not. I think I'm going to allow size to naturally come to me. Putting size on a guy like me drains your wallet and stresses you out (a big time constraint)


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## CDA4555 (Nov 6, 2008)

Excellent.  While I still hit the weights for some variety there is so much out there in performance improvement arena.  Bruce Lee was always researching new conditioning techniques to up his game and I believe that this is the case for many martial artists out there.  Programs that target functional strength such as Cross Fit seems to be the best fit for a martial artist.  Also if you really want a brutal strength without limiting your range of motion you should check out a local kettlebell instructor.  The Russian military has used these instruments for conditioning for years and believe me kettlebells are no joke.  You will gain power and speed....but you must learn the precise techniques.  Here is the link to find out more, also check out youtube to see kettlebellers in motion.

http://www.dragondoor.com/


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## Kwanjang (Nov 6, 2008)

I dunno, ask smiln Bob


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## sjansen (Nov 6, 2008)

Since your in JKD maybe you should look at the founder. Bruce always tried to get bigger. He believed that he would be at his supreme power if he could get his weight up to 180 lbs. Simple physics says that mass time velocity equals force. The bigger you are, the harder you will probably hit.


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## Glycerine0160 (Nov 6, 2008)

sjansen said:


> Since your in JKD maybe you should look at the founder. Bruce always tried to get bigger. He believed that he would be at his supreme power if he could get his weight up to 180 lbs. Simple physics says that mass time velocity equals force. The bigger you are, the harder you will probably hit.


 

Well, Bruce is probably an exception either way (to everything)
but I can only reiterate what the guys in my place say, and that is that Bruce got up to 160lbs and did not like the loss of speed he encountered and dropped his weight back to down to his comfortable 130lbs. (of course maybe that's just Bruce individually)

While I agree, a bigger guy can probably throw a harder punch, you must realize something about power from the muscles. (If I knew the correct terminology I would use it) but learning the correct form then teaching your muscles to connect this properly to the brain is the key. You could call it muscle memory in it, but there is more to it. It's teaching the muscle how to function into a punch properly (along with the whole body) As we all know, it can take a very long time to actually master the straight blast. 

This might be a personal belief, but I am highly confident someone who masters a straight blast no matter his size will throw it a lot harder than someone who is naturally big. Where I am going with this is, certain exercises can help your body program the muscles into these movements better than others. Any exercises that would involve core movements and balance I would imagine would fall into this. 

But I know from fighting methods, it mentions that in boxing, the "less muscular" can be seen throwing a harder punch than the other guy.

Either way though, the necessity of size in a fight could go on forever. The only few examples I could offer is, in the early UFC's there were no rules. And large guys did *not* dominate the sport then. Also, if you notice, all the martial artists in these asian countries are very tiny yet skilled fighters. (this could be due to there diets yes, but I'm sure if they thought being larger was truely an advantage, it would change)


(I am only trying to repeat what was said to me, of course it's not going to be a 100% complete translation)

Overall I think size:
-can be intimidating (and a loss of confidence is a huge disadvantage)
-as long as a person knows how to adapt to a larger fighter, I think the advantage no longer exists)
-Depending on your art, JKD, kali, and silat do not stress strength in any of the exercises. it's all about applying little force to achieve results
(the exception being punching/kicking   which as I said, I would not contribute a high bench press into the ability to mechanically throw a proper straight blast or cross)


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## sjansen (Nov 16, 2008)

Glycerine0160 said:


> Well, Bruce is probably an exception either way (to everything)
> but I can only reiterate what the guys in my place say, and that is that Bruce got up to 160lbs and did not like the loss of speed he encountered and dropped his weight back to down to his comfortable 130lbs. (of course maybe that's just Bruce individually)
> 
> While I agree, a bigger guy can probably throw a harder punch, you must realize something about power from the muscles. (If I knew the correct terminology I would use it) but learning the correct form then teaching your muscles to connect this properly to the brain is the key. You could call it muscle memory in it, but there is more to it. It's teaching the muscle how to function into a punch properly (along with the whole body) As we all know, it can take a very long time to actually master the straight blast.
> ...


 
I have trained in JKD, Kali and Silat and power does matter. I can take out most opponents smaller than me. Your instructors are leading you on if they are telling you that size doesn't matter. Herb (Bruce's training partner and dummy maker) said that Bruce wanted to get up to 180 to increase his power. Bruce was no dummy and you should not be either. If you gain fat, you gain nothing. Gain lean muscle and it will mean power in your punches and kicks.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is leading down the primrose path.

Technique will beat power every time. But, the average street fighter can be beat by poor technique. Do you want to win in a confrontation and not kill your opponent? You need power to do so.


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## geezer (Nov 19, 2008)

sjansen said:


> The bigger you are, the harder you will probably hit.


 
Along this line, did anyone ever see that old Seinfeld episode where Kramer was so proud of being the toughest guy in his karate class? And then it turned out that the rest of the class were ten and twelve-year-olds!?!

I myself am still _undefeated_ when sparring with my son! Of course, he's only 10 and less than half my size ...Oh, wait, there was that time he hit me between the legs. Well, anyway, you get the point.


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## hungfistron (Nov 29, 2008)

Glycerine0160 said:


> Just curious, for a while I was trying to make it up to 150-160lbs when i was at 125. I'm now contently at 142 and over period getting there, I didn't really feel size would matter for JKD if I ever needed to apply it. However, sometimes I find it very difficult to ignore the fact some people can punch a lot harder, and I'm not quite sure it's any slower than mine. (I had always lent to the idea that smaller equals faster)
> 
> Should I attempt to get bigger? I do lift twice a week, just to keep my strength up, but I make no effort to bulk up or get any bigger than I am now. Just strength purposes. After reading some message boards about if size helps, it seemed most people though it was an advantage. Thoughts?



In my humble opinion no.

There is nothing at all wrong with lifting weights, or eating properly or any of those kinds of things. However, you can't hit harder simply by getting stronger, or by gaining 40 pounds of muscle.  What you have to figure out is a happy medium between your personal speed, and your personal muscle strength. Some people you notice may be stronger then you now, but potentially with the proper training, you can and will hit harder. Since we are in the Jeet Kune Do thread, Bruce Lee did get all the way up to 175-180.  Some of this best friends at that time were body builders, but he noticed that he slowed down, and that bothered him greatly. He got all the way back down to 145. What Bruce did is focused on explosive power, lean muscle, and endurance. Also repetition, and muscle memory greatly impacts speed. Weights can only help so much, you have to practice punching to punch harder. No way around it.

Most people that lift weights try to just get bigger.  Bruce isolated muscle groups, and concentrated on circuit training.  Little things like don't wait more than a minute before each exercise, breath in and out from your lower abdomen during each rep. Double and triple set muscle groups as frequent as you can, but with low weight. Jumping from crouching position over the weight bench to train your legs.

Now you don't have to do all of that, and try to be like Bruce Lee. Figure out what works best for yourself. One does not have to put on lots of weight to become strong, however you may need to workout _more_ than twice a week...


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## seasoned (Nov 29, 2008)

Glycerine0160 said:


> Just curious, for a while I was trying to make it up to 150-160lbs when i was at 125. I'm now contently at 142 and over period getting there, I didn't really feel size would matter for JKD if I ever needed to apply it. However, sometimes I find it very difficult to ignore the fact some people can punch a lot harder, and I'm not quite sure it's any slower than mine. (I had always lent to the idea that smaller equals faster)
> 
> Should I attempt to get bigger? I do lift twice a week, just to keep my strength up, but I make no effort to bulk up or get any bigger than I am now. Just strength purposes. After reading some message boards about if size helps, it seemed most people though it was an advantage. Thoughts?


Size means you can hit an opponent any where an get a favorable effect. Being smaller means you have to be more accurate and precise. In tournaments and boxing matches they have weight categories, but in the street, ridding a bike, the smallest of bugs flying into your eye, can take the biggest of us to our knees.


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## OnAQuest (Dec 1, 2008)

I am going to simplify this conversation for everyone:

Again please refer to my "Attributes" post above.

Imagine two fighters standing face to face.

ALL THINGS being EQUAL --

They have the EXACT Speed, Technique, Timing/Reflexes. They know the EXACT same Skills.

1 of them is 150lbs of ripped muscle

1 of them is 185lbs of ripped muscle

----

The 185lber kicks the crap out of the 150lber everytime.


SIZE is an Attribute (IF it's quality Mass/Strength) but it is not the ONLY Attribute.

From what I can see there are the following main attributes that will contribute to your ability to win a fight and lets imagine they are on a scale of 1-10

SIZE/STRENGTH (1-10)

SPEED (1-10)

TECHNIQUE (1-10)

FLEXIBILITY (1-10)

REFLEXES (1-10)

If I had to rate myself on these I would guess:

Strength - 9

Speed - 6

Technique - 2 (I'm a yellow belt)

Flexibility - 2

Reflexes - 8

Total up my ATTRIBUTES points: 27

Now Rate Your Points Do you have more than 27? Then perhaps you could beat me in a fight, even though I'm 228lbs and probably stronger than you!

However I have room to increase my Technique, Flexibility and Speed and when I do..........Look Out Below! If you as a smaller guy have not increased your size/strength by the time I increase my Technique (You Lose) 

I hope this puts all things into perspective.

ANYONE who tells you that SIZE/STRENGTH is a DISADVANTAGE.........is basically trying to sell you some *Beach Front Property in Arizona *

All things being equal:

Size Matters

Kind Regards,

OnAQuest


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## Bodhisattva (Dec 1, 2008)

Glycerine0160 said:


> Just curious, for a while I was trying to make it up to 150-160lbs when i was at 125. I'm now contently at 142 and over period getting there, I didn't really feel size would matter for JKD if I ever needed to apply it. However, sometimes I find it very difficult to ignore the fact some people can punch a lot harder, and I'm not quite sure it's any slower than mine. (I had always lent to the idea that smaller equals faster)
> 
> Should I attempt to get bigger? I do lift twice a week, just to keep my strength up, but I make no effort to bulk up or get any bigger than I am now. Just strength purposes. After reading some message boards about if size helps, it seemed most people though it was an advantage. Thoughts?



Size always matters.  Size and strength are especially difficult to overcome.

Anyone who thinks they aren't difficult to overcome is wrong.  People have to put in a whole lot of training time before they can overcome a larger, stronger opponent who is determined to cause harm in an aggressive, remorseless fashion..

And even after they have trained for it, they still cannot disregard size as if it isn't there.  It is there, and you have to work to overcome it.

I have seen blue belts roll and play with guys 50 pounds heavier and much stronger.  It isn't hard for them, they have the training - but the size STILL must be dealt with - it doesn't go away - they just learn to overcome it.


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## g-bells (Dec 26, 2008)

Size does matter but so does skill and what i believe is most important- mindset!!


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