# FMA for streetfighting



## thekuntawman (Nov 15, 2009)

hey everybody, long time no see. im a little disappointed there aint been a lot of conversation lately, just posting video clips and seminar announcements. doesnt anybody train for fighting anymore? :angel:

so i thought i would get something started with this.

are you really training your FMA for fighting on the street? or self defense? in what way? i stopped looking at youtube clips a lot time ago, because everybodys doing the same thing, same old drills, same old kenpo techniques while the opponent just stands there, and now we have the same old sparring clips. when you seent one, you seen them all.

but arnis and eskrima have so much more to them than playing patty cake with those sticks. what about power hitting, or fighting against a power hit? and empty hands! please! what about "fighting" with those hands. sure, you can slap them together like your doing sinawali, but how bout practicing how to _kick somebodys ***_ with those fists? i havent been to no eskrima tournament in about 5 years, they're boring. have you noticed every says "we do stick, knife, stick and knife, and empty hand", but you dont see nobody fighting empty handed? but they play patty cake all day long. and im sorry, but punching focus mitts is not what im talking about, we cant all be floyd maywther or pacman, use your martial arts.

last month my boys went to a muay thai tournament close to fresno (first place and third place, thank you). one was a kuntaw student of mine, the other was my kung fu student. they told me, there was a lot of FMA people there... in the audience. yeah, at every tournament i ever been to, except eskrima tournaments. 

so it makes me wonder (just kidding, i already know the answer), how many people think about the street fight, and how your FMA is getting ready in case that happens. drills, save it, the guy on the street aint going to do sinawali with you, and he's not going to use most of your 12 hit numbering system, he's probably going to swing his fist at you. not a jab (for those nice, pretty "guntings" or block, check past) not a hook (that you can use elbow to fist destruction against), but just a plain old, sloppy punch. FMA is very effective in a real fight, but you have to prepare the right way. are you?


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## MJS (Nov 15, 2009)

thekuntawman said:


> hey everybody, long time no see. im a little disappointed there aint been a lot of conversation lately, just posting video clips and seminar announcements. doesnt anybody train for fighting anymore? :angel:
> 
> so i thought i would get something started with this.
> 
> ...


 
Welcome back! 

To answer your questions....yes, I do my best to work more realism into the Arnis material.  Not to say that the material isn't real, but I'm talking about the way that I train it.  One thing that I enjoy doing is taking a specific technique and supercharge it up a bit.  So for example, lets say that we're working disarms.  We all know the disarm and we all know how the person usually throws the strike...they aim towards the target, stop and allow you to do your tech, which is fine during the learning stages.  Now, to pick the pace up a bit, swing about half speed and follow thru with the strike, then follow thru with another strike.  This, IMO, is going to make it not only more realistic, but twice as hard, due to the fact that you'll soon see that the textbook applications are no longer as easy.

Spontaneous reaction drills are my favorite thing to do, not only in Kenpo, but even in the Arnis.  I've found, that while going thru a normal drill, my inst will break out of the drill for a moment and do something else.  Its amazing how much the Arnis training has helped hand/eye coordination.  I'm no longer thinking about the drill, per se, but instead, just reacting to whats coming at me.  As I said, the reaction drills can be done with anything.  Simply pick what you want to work on, and make the drill street applicable.

Stick sparring, either with a real stick or padded is also a wake up call, because alot of what you do, as I said above, goes out the window, because its no longer textbook.

At the last Arnis camp I went to, one of the guys teaching called me up.  All he did was half speed 1 and 2 strikes.  He told me anytime I was ready, to go in and do something.  The #1 strikes are the more difficult ones to get in on, IMO, but he didn't stop...he just kept swinging.  Even when I did get in and grabbed onto the stick or him, ie: clinch, he kept fighting.  We started throwing knees, started using the stick to aid in the clinch, ended up going to the ground and worked from there.  Good times, and it made things more real.

Hope that answered some of your questions.


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## geezer (Nov 17, 2009)

thekuntawman said:


> are you really training your FMA for fighting on the street? or self defense? in what way? ...FMA is very effective in a real fight, but you have to prepare the right way. are you?



Ha! It's about time somebody stirred the pot a bit in this department. Good questions. The honest answer is that I've been slacking. You're dead right about the need for realistic training. Simple, strong stuff that works.


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## thekuntawman (Nov 18, 2009)

hi and thank you for replying.

i have this conversation with FMA people all the time about this, especially when i first meet them, and especially, when somebody looks to join my school. i have named my eskrima "fighting" eskrima, because i am training people to fight, not do drills. there is a huge difference.

the biggest thing to ask is, 'how do you attack'? most FMA people really don't know how to attack. arnis and eskrima (and silat and kuntaw) people spend too much time on defense. so everything is, feed me strike # blah blah blah, and then you do your arnis. this is not how to learn to fight, its learning to demonstrate. in order to develop martial arts for streetfighting, you must learn how to attack the opponent. this is a lot more than just practicing your number hits. it is studying the methods of attack, and practicing the best ways to land hits and, finish the opponent off. sad to say but the FMA guy has only gotten good at doing drills and demonstrating prearranged defense. so you have a guy who does drills and drills, then when he spars, nothing comes out... he is just swinging.

then we have empty hand. they throw down the sticks and do the SAME THING with the hands, and call it FMA empty hand. poor guys. most of these guys never even sparred withtheir hands, and really dont know how to fight. if we are truly preparing for a streetfight, you have to know how to use your hands for more than just playing hot hands and eating pizza.

i noticed that more FMA people are starting to spar and this is good for the art. a few years ago too many people made excuses why sparring was bad, or why tournaments hurts fighting ability. but to get ready for actually fighting, you must have some kind of fighting experience, even if its practice fighting. and here is the most important thing: this fighting experience must be with strangers. fighting with strangers will add a physcology part that drills, friendly seminars and class sparring cannot give you. 

i wrote some articles on my site (with help, of course) that talks about this. i hope you check it out and like them. thank you!


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## thekuntawman (Nov 18, 2009)

MJS said:


> At the last Arnis camp I went to, one of the guys teaching called me up.  All he did was half speed 1 and 2 strikes.  He told me anytime I was ready, to go in and do something.  The #1 strikes are the more difficult ones to get in on, IMO, but he didn't stop...he just kept swinging.  Even when I did get in and grabbed onto the stick or him, ie: clinch, he kept fighting.  We started throwing knees, started using the stick to aid in the clinch, ended up going to the ground and worked from there.  Good times, and it made things more real.
> 
> Hope that answered some of your questions.



this is good to learn how to counter certain strikes. regular speed sparring is a lot of times just a blur, and you dont get to replay what happened, and learn from the experience. but when the opponent is really trying to hit you, but with the same few hits, you are developing a skill against that hit or those hits, and its the best way to learn how to use the hits, and also how to counter them. 

fighting ability is a combination of developing destructible skills, developing the power to do the damage, and the reflex, timing and speed to make it happen. that is the best way to learn to fight and defend yourself.


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## James Kovacich (Nov 18, 2009)

I've been training with my wifes Uncle who today teaches somewhat differantly. Some traditionalists would probably have some things to say about it. Thats the problem these days, to much talking instead of doing. He with one of his original instructors have made some changes to make the art conform to them rather than them conforming to the art. I'm being slightly coy to what  I'm writing because I'm sure they would prefer it that way.

Before training with him I was already "focusing" on the strikes and blocks that most "fit" simplistically with me. It's refreshing to train and hit with  more realism, less accumulation and not being bound by having to learn a system based on how it was historically meant to be taught. 

Not to say that the battle tested systems are not and were not real. just the world is differant and me like many train in a lot of arts and simplicity ranks high with me and most importantly all that I do must fit together with me being the  glue that holds it together.

Yes, their are at least some trying to continually evolve, whether it be weapons or empty hands. Just doing.


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## thekuntawman (Nov 18, 2009)

very nice! thank you

i went to your website, and your style(s) look put together very well. im sure your FMA will be done the same way you put your karate together. will you be at the baska tournament this january?

sparring based martial arts will always be more useful than theory based martial arts. FMA use to be sparring based, but the way its been teaching lately, we ended up with too much theory, not enough application. that is the point of this thread.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 18, 2009)

*Great thread!*






Drills, technique training, etc. all have their place in developing skill sets.  However, in the end you have to take those skill sets and be able to *apply them*.  That is were pressure testing comes in!  

Now I am surprised that you have encountered a lot of FMA non sparring types lately as certainly that has not been my experience.  Most of the FMA guy's that I know like to get after it!


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## James Kovacich (Nov 18, 2009)

Thanks Kuntawman,

I'm a FMA student and I'm fortunate to have a family member that was an early student of Mike Inay and I'm also fortunate to have Mikes last student as my instructor as well who is a family friend and thats how I met him. It was in his class that I tore my right bicep while sparring 5 years back and all of my training has been greatly altered since.

Understanding all the muscles used has been an-opening for me and the simplicity of my wifes Uncle's teaching has helped me to be active in FMA. Eventually I plan on learning the complete Inayan system but that is a parallel path which deserves it's "separation." At first I found it to fit so well, then I found the differances effecting my base. Is that good or bad? Depends on if I'm OK with changing my way. The little things really  do change us. 

I feel the smartest thing to do is both. Training with my wifes Uncle is a closer fit immediately and as I come into "my own" I shouldn't have the conflicts within and be able to be true to myself and to my instructors expectations also.

I haven't witnessed an FMA tourney in many years but I can tell you that the people around me are not fond of the tourneys that run striking continously without much stopping, especially with all the body armour. Their opinion which seems practical but without me experiencing, it remains their experience.

Take care, James


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## James Kovacich (Nov 19, 2009)

thekuntawman said:


> very nice! thank you
> 
> i went to your website, and your style(s) look put together very well. im sure your FMA will be done the same way you put your karate together. will you be at the baska tournament this january?
> 
> sparring based martial arts will always be more useful than theory based martial arts. FMA use to be sparring based, but the way its been teaching lately, we ended up with too much theory, not enough application. that is the point of this thread.


 
I went to your site and we talked (email) probably 5+ years back before I started training with my current FMA instructors. I believe that making your art "your own" is the true path and I think you are on that path. Even better having a family art to start with. It's easy to say that our martial art families are like family but nothing in MA is closer than family that shares or shared "your path" in martial arts.

I checked out the BASKA site and couldn't tell what kind of tourney it is. Open styles, including Eskrima divisions? I used to live down the street from the January location. 

Take care, James


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## thekuntawman (Nov 25, 2009)

try this one. i have a big group going there in january







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## thekuntawman (Nov 25, 2009)

oops, you ask me what kind of tourmanet right? its a point tournament, but there is going to be a continuous fighting division too. no stickfighting (sometimes they do ahve them but i dont think this time) just empty hands.


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## Darrin Cook (Nov 30, 2009)

Kuntawman,

I read your blog and agreed with your FMA empty hands post. I think it is best to view FMA as a weapons art. For me, Thai boxing is the empty hand phase of the art.

While I agree with you that it is not sensible to expect weapons techniques to apply to empty hands, ("Hey, I'll just do an abaniko strike with my bare hand!"), I think arts should be consistent. I think someone trying to do arnis as a weapons art and Shotokan karate as an empty hand art has a problem of inconsistency in basic assumptions. For example, the butterfly swords are a good fit for Wing Chun -the two methods are compatible.

If FMA arts are ineffective empty-handed, it may reveal a flaw in the weapons phase. In other words, overly complicated slapping techniques with the hands may be evidence of how impractical and ineffective overly complicated slapping/striking techniques with sticks are.


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## thekuntawman (Dec 1, 2009)

Darrin Cook said:


> Kuntawman,
> 
> I read your blog and agreed with your FMA empty hands post. I think it is best to view FMA as a weapons art. For me, Thai boxing is the empty hand phase of the art.
> 
> ...


 
thank you! a style will have some things that will bleed over to everything you do. but many things will not, since each weapon is different. take a style that has a knife style in it an a chako style or a staff style. they are separate weapons, so there is many places where the uses of the two styles will not meet. but many philosophies will be the same, no matter what weapon you use. in that article, i am talking about people who try to make everything fit, which is not useful anymore because they choose making things fit, over effectiveness. because of this and approaches like this, their martial arts have become a game or something to look clever, instead of a fighting art that is looking for most effective techniques.

your last point is true, but not just in the weapons "phase" but everything many of those people do. remember in fighting, we are not looking to impress first, but defense first. when impressing people is the goal (or first goal at least), effective technique is not as important and they end up with neat ways to explain defense, or fancy names, or other non-important things like rank arguments and lineage. this is the biggest problem with the way FMA is taught these days, that there is no emphasis on seeing what people can do, just the amway style of promotion and doing business which makes people loose their focus on if these techniques or students are good enough.

and that brings me back to the subject of fighting in the FMA. we all say we do it, but how many really DO it? drills and prearrange defense is not fighting. hitting pads and punching bags is not fighting. in what way is empty hand skill being tested, except "show me what you know"?


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## MJS (Dec 2, 2009)

thekuntawman said:


> thank you! a style will have some things that will bleed over to everything you do. but many things will not, since each weapon is different. take a style that has a knife style in it an a chako style or a staff style. they are separate weapons, so there is many places where the uses of the two styles will not meet. but many philosophies will be the same, no matter what weapon you use. in that article, i am talking about people who try to make everything fit, which is not useful anymore because they choose making things fit, over effectiveness. because of this and approaches like this, their martial arts have become a game or something to look clever, instead of a fighting art that is looking for most effective techniques.
> 
> your last point is true, but not just in the weapons "phase" but everything many of those people do. remember in fighting, we are not looking to impress first, but defense first. when impressing people is the goal (or first goal at least), effective technique is not as important and they end up with neat ways to explain defense, or fancy names, or other non-important things like rank arguments and lineage. this is the biggest problem with the way FMA is taught these days, that there is no emphasis on seeing what people can do, just the amway style of promotion and doing business which makes people loose their focus on if these techniques or students are good enough.


 
While some things can be transitioned, it doesn't apply to everything.  Of course, like I've been saying, don't lump every FMA person into the same group.  Just because you have seen people who train like crap, does not mean that everyone trains like crap.  



> and that brings me back to the subject of fighting in the FMA. we all say we do it, but how many really DO it? drills and prearrange defense is not fighting. hitting pads and punching bags is not fighting. in what way is empty hand skill being tested, except "show me what you know"?


 
And just like in any art, you need a solid foundation to build from. For example...if someone didn't have solid stances, then no amount of punches or kicks will amount to anything, because of lack of stance, stability, power, etc. The drills are just that...drills. I don't think that anyone, at least I'm not...is saying that you can fight with drills. Then again, there are some people who seem to think that the siniwalli and tapi tapi drills are sparring, but anyways.....they're simply drills to show you something. 

Now, its up to that person to expand on those things, and apply them in a live sparring type setting, with resistance. You may use a piece of a drill, but its unlikely that you're ever use the full drill.


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## thekuntawman (Dec 2, 2009)

MJS said:


> While some things can be transitioned, it doesn't apply to everything. Of course, like I've been saying, don't lump every FMA person into the same group. *Just because you have seen people who train like crap, does not mean that everyone trains like crap*.


 

MJS, 

i do not say in any of my post, that all FMA people fit in to any group i am talking about. i always say, of the people i seened. not everybody out there. 

but i been around long enough, that i can tell who can fight for real, just by knowing there background, how they talk and there personality who is the good martial artists, and who are the concept fantasy martial artists. 

i dont need to see every FMA guy (or girl) to make that judgement.


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## James Kovacich (Dec 2, 2009)

Inayan Eskrima is a good example where the techniques do transition well from blade to empty hand. Inayan Serrada and Inayan Kadena de Mano techniques are virtually the same with the exception of the obvious need for minor adjustments.

I believe the "theory" behind using the same techniques for hand, knife and sword is solid as long as it is do-able and a key ingredient of that is simplicity. Forget the fluff, the core reason for it is simplicity.


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## MJS (Dec 2, 2009)

thekuntawman said:


> MJS,
> 
> i do not say in any of my post, that all FMA people fit in to any group i am talking about. i always say, of the people i seened. not everybody out there.
> 
> ...


 
Really?  Below are a few of your posts.  Take note of the bold parts.  Here is what you said:



thekuntawman said:


> hey everybody, long time no see. im a little disappointed there aint been a lot of conversation lately, just posting video clips and seminar announcements. *doesnt anybody train for fighting anymore?* :angel:
> 
> so i thought i would get something started with this.
> 
> ...






thekuntawman said:


> hi and thank you for replying.
> 
> i have this conversation with FMA people all the time about this, especially when i first meet them, and especially, when somebody looks to join my school. i have named my eskrima "fighting" eskrima, because i am training people to fight, not do drills. there is a huge difference.
> 
> ...


 


thekuntawman said:


> thank you! a style will have some things that will bleed over to everything you do. but many things will not, since each weapon is different. take a style that has a knife style in it an a chako style or a staff style. they are separate weapons, so there is many places where the uses of the two styles will not meet. but many philosophies will be the same, no matter what weapon you use. in that article, i am talking about people who try to make everything fit, which is not useful anymore because they choose making things fit, over effectiveness. because of this and approaches like this, their martial arts have become a game or something to look clever, instead of a fighting art that is looking for most effective techniques.
> 
> your last point is true, but not just in the weapons "phase" but everything many of those people do. remember in fighting, we are not looking to impress first, but defense first. when impressing people is the goal (or first goal at least), effective technique is not as important and they end up with neat ways to explain defense, or fancy names, or other non-important things like rank arguments and lineage.* this is the biggest problem with the way FMA is taught these days, that there is no emphasis on seeing what people can do, just the amway style of promotion and doing business which makes people loose their focus on if these techniques or students are good enough.*
> 
> *and that brings me back to the subject of fighting in the FMA. we all say we do it, but how many really DO it? drills and prearrange defense is not fighting. hitting pads and punching bags is not fighting. in what way is empty hand skill being tested, except "show me what you know"?*




So, yes, your wording gives the impression that you're talking about the entire FMA community.  That is why I said that unless you know how everyone trains, your interpretations will be limited to only what YOU currently see, but again, it does not mean that everyone in the world trains like that.  

A number of people in my group:

1) stick spar

2) take random, spontaneous attacks, and apply FMA technique to the attack, empty handed.

3) Same as #2, but with a stick.  

4) Do not train static, but instead add in resistance and aliveness.

5) Spar empty hand.

6) Use their real world experience to bring more realism/reality to the mat.  Many of these people have used the Arnis techs. in real situations, thus further proving that the art works.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 3, 2009)

Haveing learned Sikaran with hands of an Okinawian system mixed in , yes I feel the way i now teach FMA works well in the street. 
Unfortunately I have had a couple of students that proved that fact after they had a little to much to drink.


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