# NY Schools doing away with Valedictorian awards



## MA-Caver (Jun 23, 2009)

School district in New York has decided to do away with the Valedictorian award to students because "it causes too much competition" a mother and daughter are angry about it and other parents as well. Watch the video: 
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=14121559&ch=4226713&src=news

http://ydr.inyork.com/ydr/newsfull/ci_12670799

Another sign of stupidity going on. Students who work extra hard than their classmates won't get the pat on the back they deserve for it anymore because some other kid(s) decided to blow off studying or taking tests seriously and learning and getting an education. 
One comment I saw hit it on the head... "how emo was born." 
It's not the hard working students fault that their classmates aren't keeping up. Some kids are just naturally smarter than others and have an aptitude for taking in information better than others so they should be recognized for the willingness to apply themselves and their natural talents to their studies. 
Taking away the special awards from those who earned them honestly is just cheapening their education, cheapening the time and effort they put in and thus could create a "so-what" or "whats the point?" attitude of attending higher educational institutions. 
Being recognized as a valedictorian helps student applications to some of the higher priced colleges/universities in the country... if that is removed then their grades will have to stand alone... to my understanding Valedictorian shows that you excelled over all of your class-mates in every area of your high-school studies and thus would not be wasting the college's time and effort in continuing that education. 

Your thoughts?


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 23, 2009)

In the New World Order nobody will shine, we will all be the same.

Won't that be just great?


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## terryl965 (Jun 23, 2009)

Yea we all must follow the leader and be as one, come on people get with the new program less is more and stupidity is the only way.


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 23, 2009)

In the future, "Idiocracy" will be required watching in History Class.


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## Empty Hands (Jun 23, 2009)

I don't support doing away with the positions.  But.  They do foster actions that aren't in the spirit of learning.  Some students I knew would avoid challenging courses, or restrict themselves to only the minimum courses in order to sustain what amounts to a meaningless GPA.  They deliberately crippled part of their own education so they could be the "best".  They weren't the best or the smartest, they just gamed the system to get the title they wanted.


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## seasoned (Jun 23, 2009)

There are always two ways to look at anything. The fact of the matter is, this is not a stand alone situation. Every facet of out life is being effected by this equal opportunity mentality. The achievers are, our guide post, once any incentives are taken away, it will breed lethargy.


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## Senjojutsu (Jun 24, 2009)

So help me out here, will the Central York School District VARSITY SPORTS TEAMS no longer keep score during games/matches also?


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## Cryozombie (Jun 24, 2009)

Empty Hands said:


> They deliberately crippled part of their own education so they could be the "best". They weren't the best or the smartest, they just gamed the system to get the title they wanted.


 
I dunno... finding the cleverest way to cheat the system is still an excercise in brainstuffs IMO, just in a different direction.


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## Tez3 (Jun 24, 2009)

As I didn't know what this was I Googled it and it seems there's some controversy over it anyway?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valedictorian


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 24, 2009)

It's New York.


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## Gordon Nore (Jun 24, 2009)

I'm having trouble with this as well. My understanding of the Valedictorian is that s/he speaks for the graduating class at commencement. Ideally, that person would be a high achiever. In my high school -- back in the seventies -- the graduating class voted for the valedictorian. In the story they also seem to be talking about the honour roll, which I see as a different thing. In that instance, the kids with the highest are acknowledged each term.

Do kids in NY schools vote for their valedictorian? If so, what's the hubaballoo?

If you can celebrate the achievements of athletes, why not acknowledge the kids who got the grades?

Can you imagine the indignation if schools did not acknowledge athletes?

I wonder what the backstory is here.


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## elder999 (Jun 24, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> Do kids in NY schools vote for their valedictorian? If so, what's the hubaballoo?.


 
The valedictorian is typically the one with the highest grade-standing in the class. 

This is yet another indication of the insidious and false cultural notion that "_we're *all* the best!_"

Newsflash: *No*, we're not.


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## Gordon Nore (Jun 24, 2009)

elder999 said:


> The valedictorian is typically the one with the highest grade-standing in the class.


 
I've seen it done slightly differently where the student body votes from the top students who reflect excellence in academics and other pursuits. In my high school, the two strongest candidates for valedictorian were both top scholars -- one with high achievement in sports, the other in student council.

It's a shame that this has sparked such controversy. I strongly suspect -- in the story cited above -- that the administration is fending off all kinds of complaints and decided to dump it.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 24, 2009)

*You know this is pretty pathetic.*

We need to reward our high achiever's in any endeavor so that people will continue to strive to be their best.  Take the incentive's away and you will in the end diminish achievement.

I am kind've close to this as in my family there were several valedictorians.  I also have a couple of high achieving kid's.  In regards to those kid's the schools in our area do not have advanced classes for them. :erg:  However the local University does have an advanced program for them. (of which the oldest get's to participate in next year at 12 years of age 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)  This will challenge him and hopefully keep that brain power going.  I know in his schooling so far he is just not challenged.
*
Bottom line high achievement needs to be rewarded.*


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## JDenver (Jun 24, 2009)

As a teacher at a post secondary institution I can tell you that things right now are NOT good.

Young adults believe that their opinions should be taken equal to that of the teacher.  If the instructor tells a student to do something, the student has every right to not do it, to mockingly question its value, to disrespect the instructor, and so on.  Students now believe that they have the right, not to an opinion, but to telling the school by what means it should do its business.  Students cry 'UNFAIR' if they perceive that any of their peers receive any extra attention or support, regardless of circumstances (like a student who has attention deficit or has lost a loved one).

The lack of humility and respect in the younger generation is appalling.  Doing away with the valedictorian is in the same vein.  Don't work hard.  Don't attempt to excel.  We will coddle you, protecting you from any sense of recognition for hard work.  No one will be singled out EVER.  To do so is wrong!

I can tell you that I teach opposite to such things. Students will show respect for me, my peers and the school.  They will do as instructed.  It's not their business what's happening with a fellow student.  Some kids figure it out, some do not.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 24, 2009)

JDenver said:


> As a teacher at a post secondary institution I can tell you that things right now are NOT good.
> 
> Young adults believe that their opinions should be taken equal to that of the teacher.  If the instructor tells a student to do something, the student has every right to not do it, to mockingly question its value, to disrespect the instructor, and so on.  Students now believe that they have the right, not to an opinion, but to telling the school by what means it should do its business.  Students cry 'UNFAIR' if they perceive that any of their peers receive any extra attention or support, regardless of circumstances (like a student who has attention deficit or has lost a loved one).
> 
> ...


Used to be when I was in school, if a student cried UNFAIR a teacher would cry back TOO BAD! Used to be that if a student smarted off to a teacher, the teacher would either take 'em out to the hall and chew them out or assert their authority in the class room (thereby embarrassing the crap out of them) and lay down the rules. Used to be if the student continued that activity then the wooden paddle would get pulled out of the teacher's desk and laid on top as a warning. Used to be that if there were further infractions then the paddle would be used. 

I'm suspecting that most of those who are coming up with these "changes" are the ones who felt themselves scarred or their sense of inadequacy (which we ALL have in one sense or another) was dealt a severe blow and now are in a position (School Board members or Town Council or whatever!) to make those changes. They never got over it while the rest of us moved on and became stronger and better people because of the way things were. 

Perhaps there is just toooo much pressure for a child to achieve (your brothre/sister/cousin has gotten all straight A's in their classes what have you done?) to get those good grades so they can get the scholarships and the parent's aren't driven to broke paying for their child's higher education. That it's a lot easier to get into college on an atheltic scholarship than an academic one. The bar gets lowered and now it seems they're going to remove one of them altogether. Lets not make it TOO tough on these kids, life is hard enough as it is. 
Hmm, having a hard life in the early years would make the hard life in the adult years a lot easier to take wouldn't it? Or would they break down and go postal? Or would they break down a lot sooner and go Columbine? 
So lets reduce the pressure, minimize the stress, eliminate the feelings of inferiority and inadequacy so nobody is better than the next. 
Wasn't there a thread here on MT about the idea of getting rid of the belt system in MA?


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## CoryKS (Jun 24, 2009)

Empty Hands said:


> I don't support doing away with the positions. But. They do foster actions that aren't in the spirit of learning. Some students I knew would avoid challenging courses, or restrict themselves to only the minimum courses in order to sustain what amounts to a meaningless GPA. They deliberately crippled part of their own education so they could be the "best". They weren't the best or the smartest, they just gamed the system to get the title they wanted.


 
Don't they factor in the level of the courses when choosing the student?  IIRC, our valedictorian was taking honors-level classes.  He was also a grade-A d-bag, but a pretty smart one.


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 24, 2009)

It doesn't matter really. 

IF they go on to pursue higher education they will have to take placement exams and if they don't score well in the areas they need for their major it's their own fault for not preparing properly in high school. 

Those that opt to take the harder courses (they do still have colledge prepatory classes don't they? Or have they destroyed those as well?) will benefit in the long run when it comes to obtaining degrees in higher learning.


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## Empty Hands (Jun 24, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> Don't they factor in the level of the courses when choosing the student?  IIRC, our valedictorian was taking honors-level classes.  He was also a grade-A d-bag, but a pretty smart one.



Some do, some don't.  My school didn't.  An "A" was an "A", whether in gym or AP Physics.


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## Deaf Smith (Jun 24, 2009)

You know, the Communist did the same thing. No rewards for excellence except a 'Hero of the Soviet Union' tin medal that would not buy you even a cup of coffee.

It's always like that in socialist countries and you would be surpassed how unions do that alot do. So it does not surprise me schools up north would do that do.

They don't like standouts. Standouts means individualism, and individualism is the enemy of the socialistic systems (unless you are one of the ruling class, then that's another matter.)

In the schools up north you are all equal, but some are more equal than others.

Next you will see the old slogan, each according to their ability, each according to their needs. And that means the committees decide what you will do and what you will get. And dont look to good in front of them, comrade.
 
Deaf


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## AnglingBoi (Jun 24, 2009)

interesting to see how that plays out, thanks for the link


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## JDenver (Jun 24, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> You know, the Communist did the same thing. No rewards for excellence except a 'Hero of the Soviet Union' tin medal that would not buy you even a cup of coffee.
> 
> It's always like that in socialist countries and you would be surpassed how unions do that alot do. So it does not surprise me schools up north would do that do.
> 
> ...



Interesting theory.

I'm gonna say it's more a contemporary product of parents raising children with the belief that the child is their 'friend' and that household decisions should be debated equally amongst everyone (even the children).

Seriously, blaming the spectre of socialism for society's ills is so 1950.


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## Archangel M (Jun 24, 2009)

Another episode in our drive to mediocrity.


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## Deaf Smith (Jun 24, 2009)

JDenver said:


> Seriously, blaming the spectre of socialism for society's ills is so 1950.


 
Not all of society's ills, just socialism's ills. Mediocrity is so, well, modern.

Deaf


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## Marginal (Jun 25, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> In the New World Order nobody will shine, we will all be the same.
> 
> Won't that be just great?


We're already all equal. The only difference is the size of our bootstraps and how hard we tug.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 25, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> Your thoughts?


 
I spent several years working for the Education department of the state in question and since they had long meetings about the political correctness of the word "it" on a webpage and meetings to discuss what will be discussed in the next meeting nothing would surprise me but this appears to be from the school system not the Ed Dept and still when you are talking education in NY...nothing surprises me anymore not matter how silly and/or stupid it is and this is just plain silly and stupid.


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 25, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> ...still when you are talking *education* in NY...nothing surprises me anymore not matter how silly and/or *stupid* it is and this is just plain silly and stupid.


 
Ah...so that's the meaning of "moron" in oxymoron!


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 25, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Ah...so that's the meaning of "moron" in oxymoron!


 
yup


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## Stac3y (Jun 25, 2009)

Kurt Vonnegut's short story "Harrison Bergeron" should be required reading. I highly recommend it.


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 25, 2009)

Stac3y said:


> Kurt Vonnegut's short story "Harrison Bergeron" should be required reading. I highly recommend it.


 
Maybe we should first focus on making sure high school graduates can actually read first. :idea:


...now...where did I put my bootstraps?


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## Stac3y (Jun 25, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Maybe we should first focus on making sure high school graduates can actually read first. :idea:
> 
> 
> ...now...where did I put my bootstraps?


 
I meant by the general public, not necessarily as an addition to high school curricula. Are any of you familiar with the story? In it, to make things "fair," beautiful people are made to wear masks, graceful people to wear weights on their limbs, etc. Same kind of idea as not rewarding academic excellence, or not allowing kids to play competitive games, IMO.


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 25, 2009)

Stac3y said:


> I meant by the general public, not necessarily as an addition to high school curricula. Are any of you familiar with the story? In it, to make things "fair," beautiful people are made to wear masks, graceful people to wear weights on their limbs, etc. Same kind of idea as not rewarding academic excellence, or not allowing kids to play competitive games, IMO.


 
Yes, I'm familiar with it and agree that many could improve themselves by reading in general! 

And why not make it required High School reading? It'd be a lot better than having to read "On the Beach." Man, what a snoozer that was!


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## Phoenix44 (Jun 25, 2009)

> I wonder what the backstory is here.


 
The backstory here is parental pressure.  Most likely it's a parent who is active in the PTA or school board, and whose little darling isn't a Rhodes Scholar.

Our school district recently stopped ranking students by GPA (although they DID maintain the valedictorian and salutatorian, go figure).

But THAT is the reason.  It has nothing to do with political correctness.


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## Phoenix44 (Jun 25, 2009)

And just to set the record straight:  Central York is in Pennsylvania, not New York.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 25, 2009)

Phoenix44 said:


> The backstory here is parental pressure. Most likely it's a parent who is active in the PTA or school board, and whose little darling isn't a Rhodes Scholar.
> 
> Our school district recently stopped ranking students by GPA (although they DID maintain the valedictorian and salutatorian, go figure).
> 
> But THAT is the reason. It has nothing to do with political correctness.


 
But it is much like Kurt Vonnegut's short story "Harrison Bergeron"

So it is not good to be outstanding at anything because if you are we will insist that you are not. Which still edges political correctness in that no one is to be thought of as better than anyone in any way what-so-ever. It just isn't fair is someone is given an awarded to show that they worked hard and did better when others didn't 

albeit it is coming from the parents who are putting pressure on the school, the school still caved


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## Phoenix44 (Jun 25, 2009)

Why is this whole concept so shocking anyway?  It's been headed this way for decades.  

Academic scholarships are few and far between, while pretty much all NCAA Division I students get large scholarships, sometimes full tuition and fees.  And if you argue that, "Sports makes money for the school, academics doesn't," that just adds to my argument.

When a kid is the winning quarterback, they do a bio in the local newspaper.  As a matter of fact, EVERY sports activity is reported in the local newspaper.  High academic achievers?  You have to win the Intel Competition for that.

Whatever.  But as I said, it's not a political matter, it's a personal one, and guaranteed, it involves a PTA mom.


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 25, 2009)

Phoenix44 said:


> Why is this whole concept so shocking anyway? It's been headed this way for decades.
> 
> Academic scholarships are few and far between, while pretty much all NCAA Division I students get large scholarships, sometimes full tuition and fees. And if you argue that, "Sports makes money for the school, academics doesn't," that just adds to my argument.
> 
> ...


 
Sigh...yeah... Our priorities are pretty screwed up aren't they....

..latter days of Rome...latter days of Rome.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 25, 2009)

Phoenix44 said:


> Why is this whole concept so shocking anyway? It's been headed this way for decades.
> 
> Academic scholarships are few and far between, while pretty much all NCAA Division I students get large scholarships, sometimes full tuition and fees. And if you argue that, "Sports makes money for the school, academics doesn't," that just adds to my argument.
> 
> ...


 
Never said it was shocking, as a matter of fact my first post in this thread I said I was not surprised at all. Did say it is still bases in being politically correct. 

Still the lack of shock does not make it right and doing this because of some misplaced ideal about equality does not make it right either. 

But you are likely right, it likely started with a PTA mom (or dad) and to be honest if the school didn&#8217;t cave eventually the Ed Department would have&#8230;. That is if they were still not devoting so much time to debating the political correctness of the word &#8216;it&#8217;


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## blindsage (Jun 26, 2009)

I don't think they should get rid of the rankings or awards, and I do think we should recognize and honor achievement, but I often question the reality of those recognitions and awards.  

As was said before there are a number of people who work the system to get the best GPA, but don't take harder classes, are they really representative of the hardest working and most accomplished?  When I was in college I took classes with a quite a few high school high performers who were completely useless when they had to engage in actual discussion of studied material and had to show their critical comprehension of it.  Is that representative of our best and brightest?  

The valedictorian at my school worked hard and was smart, but she was kind of a d-bag, and her speech at graduation was the one of the most convoluted, indecipherable, pretentious pieces of poetry masquerading as prose that I have ever heard, we all sat around looking at eachother with WTF looks on our faces.  I still laugh about it today.  

When I was in college I lived with a guy who was extremely gifted in memorization skills, he's going to med school now to be a neuro-surgeon.  But he has to work significantly less hard than a lot of his peers because of how much less he has to study.  He used to cram 24 hours before a test without having looked at the material, and still sget one of the top two scores every time.  I think he should be acknowledged for his high achievement, but I think there should also be some recognition that others have put in more work to get to the same place, and that his gifts don't necessarily make him smarter than the harder workers in terms of comprehension and application of knowledge.  And while his gifts allow him high achievement in one avenue, they don't necessarily mean squat in related areas like medical ethics.

Achievement is great and should be strived for and recognized, but we also have to recognize the limits of what that achievement actually means.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 26, 2009)

blindsage said:


> we also have to recognize the limits of what that achievement actually means.




this makes no sense what so ever


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## blindsage (Jun 26, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> this makes no sense what so ever


 Most high school achievement is based on wrote memorization with only token efforts at real comprehension and application of the knowledge.  Achieving well in high school means something, but often achievement of this kind is taken to mean things beyond it's actual reality.  If you don't understand what I'm saying :idunno:


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## Twin Fist (Jun 26, 2009)

i dont think anyone cufuses valedictorian with "best all around"

it is what it is, the kid with the highest grade point average.


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## Archangel M (Jun 26, 2009)

Sorry, I have to agree with TF...the best grade is the best grade. The first across the finish line is the winner even if the athlete was blessed with some superior genetic trait the other athletes were not. The rest sounds like rationalization for why "the valedictorian wasnt necessarily smarter than me".


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## blindsage (Jun 26, 2009)

I guess, if all you consider academic learning to be is a race to 'first place'.


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 26, 2009)

What I find ironic is the same people that support crap like this are the same ones that supposedly advocate diversity! :erg:

Every individual has strengths and weaknesses unique unto themselves. I feel that one of the primary roles of an educator should be to identify those strengths and weaknesses, foster the strengths, and help reinforce the weaknesses. 

Everybody can't win a Nobel Prize.

Everybody can't earn a Super Bowl ring. 

Everybody can't write an Best Seller. 

Everybody can't win an Oscar. 

But everybody can find something they are good at and focus on excelling at it. 

It's ridiculous to support anything that would hinder someone's education for the sake of the percieved ego of another. What if that were the norm back when Louis Pasteur was in school? 

It's the exceptional that help propel man forward so it shouldn't be too hard to figure out the consequences of hindering those with the capacity to really shine. 

We're our own worst enemy.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 26, 2009)

and NOW you have discovered why i want to take liberals and slap them about the head and shoulders untill they get it


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