# Black vs. Midnight Blue



## Shinzu

what are your thoughts on these two aspects?  just a color or something deeper?

i myself feel that a belt is just that.  however i do agree with the philosophy behind the midnight blue color.  i have worn both.  what do you guys think??


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Shinzu _
> 
> *however i do agree with the philosophy behind the midnight blue color.  i have worn both.  what do you guys think?? *



I'm not a TSD practitioner and am familiar with the midnight blue belt--what is the issue?


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## Cthulhu

Yes, please elaborate.  What is this midnight blue belt and the philosophy behind it?

Cthulhu


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## Shinzu

in some TSD associations studends wear midnight blue belts instead of black belts.  midnight blue is a very deep and dark blue.  it looks almost black.

the phlosophy behind it is that wearing black is considered a finishing color, the end, or completion.  midnight blue is the closest color in relation to black but it symbolizes that there is still more to learn and that yourself nor your art are perfect by any means.

it also reminds you that there is always more you can add to it were black is complete.

i tend to agree with these statements but many people are ore used to seeing students with black belt rather than midnight blue.

either way its not what you wear outside.... it's what you know inside that counts.:asian:


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## Rob_Broad

Although the color shows, it is no proof as to what you know.

Ed Parker


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## Bob Hubbard

Good point Rob.

I like the concept though... it "works" for me.  Tends to imply that "I'm not done learning yet" or the life-long student ideal, rather than the "Im a black belt now so I'm done" that I've run into in the past.

:asian:


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## Shinzu

exactly Kaith.  i think it is a humble way to state that you are always the student and always learning.

i have come accross the "i'm the black belt attitude" also.  tends to put a damper on their learning ability and people go on a big ego trip.  not good martial spirit if you ask me.

i have seen so many students drop out after they achieve their black belt, but the funny thing is that when you reach this level you are mearly a "beginner" all over again.  so the quest has just begun.

TANG SOO!:asian:


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## Rob_Broad

Even if the Black Belt is to signify the end.  How fast does the color of that Black Belt start to fade a little, therefore there is always a little more to learn.  I have been wearing the same Black Belt for the last 10 yrs, with age it is now very dark grey, not the pure pristine black it was when awarded to me, so it means there still must be more for me to learn.


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## KumaSan

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> 
> *Even if the Black Belt is to signify the end.  How fast does the color of that Black Belt start to fade a little, therefore there is always a little more to learn.  I have been wearing the same Black Belt for the last 10 yrs, with age it is now very dark grey, not the pure pristine black it was when awarded to me, so it means there still must be more for me to learn. *



So the longer you wear it, I guess the more you realize how much else there is to learn? I like this, actually...


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## Shinzu

funny you should mention this rob.  there are infact certain black belts that actually fade and reveal a white cloth underneth after years of training.  infact the geatest of masters always have something to learn.  this is why i find the arts so interesting.


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## TLH3rdDan

so far from what ive read in this thread i really like the idea of a midnight blue belt... and in response to the fading black belt... has anyone seen the guys that go and purposly wear their belt out to get that aged look... ive seen teenagers at tournaments walking around with belts that are tattered and faded and really warn and ill ask how long they have had their belt and they ohhh just a few months... so i ask how it got so worn out... the reply ohh i did it my self with some rocks and dirt and wraping it around a tree... is it just me or does that seem wrong


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## Shinzu

to me the belt symbolizes knowledge.  all the sweat and hard work are imbeded into my belt.  there for i never disrespect it by washing it or throwing it around or playing with it. it is just as much a part of my are as the uniform is.  you wouldn't find students rolling around in mud with their uniforms on would you?

if my belt is going to wear down it's going to be from hard work and training, not because i want it to look a certain way. 

some people just have no idea of what the martial arts is all about.


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## Bob Hubbard

> some people just have no idea of what the martial arts is all about.



Too true.  Its sad, but true.

I always hope that as they get older, they will learn.


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## Shinzu

exactly kaith.  this is where discipline, respect, hard work, and humility come into play.  that is why it is so important to find a quality instructor and school.

i glad you found the philosophy of the midnight blue belt interesting THL.  most people are not familiar with the color and background, therefore they don't think that you are actually a "black belt" holder.

it is infact an old korean tradition for high ranking students to wear midnght blue.  i like tradition.


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## TLH3rdDan

yeah i know after i talked to that so called black belt which was from out of state some place i didnt really bother to find out where i just felt disgusted that his instructor allowed him to do that and that this kid thought it was cool... as far as that midnight blue belt do you happen to know of any other places to get them other than asian world?


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## Shinzu

hmmm... im not sure but i think sakura martial arts might carry them. here is the addy:

http://www.sakura-0.com

let me know how you make out.  if you can't find one i can always ask my instructor where he get them


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## arnisador

What is the usual time to black (or midnight blue) belt in TSD? I know it tends to be about 2-2.5 years in TKD.


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## Shinzu

it is usualy around 3 years depending on the students own growth level.

some schools use the black belt and other use the midnight blue.  i guess it is all a matter of choice, and which organization you belong to.

in fact i was one of the judges at a black belt test today.  it was a rough test but the students did very well and earned their rank of midnight blue. 

:asian:


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## Deaf

The philosophy behind the midnight blue is interesting.  Can you tell me where you found out this information?  Also does anyone know to whom exactly started this trend of using midnight blue belts?

I myself have worn both.  (I tended to wear the midnight blue at the dojang and the black at tournaments etc..) Reason for this, just keep getting tired of people asking me.."Hey you a black belt or what?"

Thank you for the information

Deaf


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## arnisador

Many arts have a red belt that is for very high ranking black belts--is there another belt that is used for, say, 9th degree black belts?


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## Shinzu

the information about the midnight blue belt is based on grandmaster hwang kee's philosophy and it is also a korean tradition that the midnight blue belt be worn.

i have seen very high ranks wear a midnight blue belt with a solid red stripe through it.  a red and black checkered belt.  black with two solid red stripes through it.

it all depends what your organization has set forth.

i like to wear the midnight blue because people are not used to seeing it. 

by asking you "are you a black belt?" goes to show you how little of TSD they really know and understand.


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## TLH3rdDan

here is my smart a$$ reply to this question.... no im not a black belt im a martial artist this piece of cloth around my waist is a black belt... just thought i would throw that out there


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## Shinzu

hee hee.. point well said TLH3rdDan


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## rana_hapkido_panama2002

:asian:  hi you all and be blessed. 
I am Ramon Navarro from the country of Panama and besides I teach Hapkido for the past 24 years I am a 3rd Dan in TangSooDo and a member to the ITF or International TangSooDo Federation since 1975. 
I learned from my teacher SabomNim Ellis, Prospero that the belt color system is based on nature: White represent the winter where the snow represents the purity of the winter snow, were before life begins it melts to begin life; 
                                                    Yellow is the simbol of earth shoing its being in excistance after the snow has melted and it represents the begining of knowledge; 
                                                    Orange represents the power that reflects the sunrays shining on earth and it is when the student begins to understand its grouth;
                                                     Green is the strength that thesuns rays hiting the earth has given the ground and it shows that things are begining to grow in it is when the student begins to understand the meaning of its art and represents the green grass; Then                                   Red belt represents the flowering of the knowledge the student has achieved in his training and in nature it is when the flowers come out to expres the beauty of nature. and 
                                                     Blue or midnight blue : This in nature represents the blue sky, spetially at night that if it would have been Black you would not see the stars in the night sky and since you can see them - also represents the night danger from its darkness; this means that in Midnight-Blue you are now seeying the danger in it ( the art of Tang Soo Do ) and and is the real begining of the training so since Black would be the last experience a human being would have in life then for respect to the atr and the teachers you would in humility use a Real Dark Blue Belt.
Also 
       Red is the representative color for life = blood it means the material world and the 
       Blue represent the feeling that one experienses iat this level, it represents the mind the non-material world so its meaning is for love !
This is why the master levels wear a wide Black belt with a trim in red in its middle representing that in the material world ( red ) in life there is now the danger of its knowledge represented by the wide black surrounding the red.


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## Shinzu

excellent info.. thanx rana!


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## master dave

greetings friends" i use both. the black with red for teaching, and the midnight blue for formal events and testings. the story behind the midnight blue belt goes as follows, hwang kee while one night looked up to the sky, it was midnight blue! as he looked at the stars he imagined all the possibilities for tang soo do. so i think its ok to use either black or midnight blue. i choose to use both. TANG SOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Shinzu

i guess it is more of the philosophy that attracts me to the midnght blue.  black is more common.  both are accepted but i feel the midnight blue holds more meaning.


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## arnisador

Do any of our newer members have thoughts on this issue?


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## mtabone

The night sky goes on forever and ever, just like our learning, hence the use of Midnight Blue in place of the Black. 
Kwan Jhang Nim Hwang Kee is the one who originated the use of the MidNight Blue Belt in Tang Soo Do. 

When people ask me " What Rank Are You?" I say I am a 3rd degree Midnight Blue belt, but it is the same equivelent as black belt, its just a philosophical difference. Most of the time they just leave it alone. Sometimes though, people get interested, as you can see from this thread. 

I for one, think it is an important distinction. 

In the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan, we use White, Orange, Green, Red, and Midnight Blue. 


I never heared of the danger of the darkness of the belt that is interesting. Though for our orange belt, we say it is the time when there is still snow, but there are the first blades of grass, and green starting to show its self. The beggining of potential. Green is spring and a deeper understanding of potential and growth. Red is summer, time for the Fire energy (Weh Gung) to come out, time for intensity and high energy. Midnight Blue, is autum, (Neh Gung) water energy, time for calm, and nearing the begging of the cycle again. This time in Maturity (Autum), one holds the Dan Rank, and the belt with grace and honor. Relizing that Now that they are MidnightBlue belts, they are finaly students.....


Tang Soo!!!
Michael Tabone


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## rana_hapkido_panama2002

Hi all and to you Dave, be blessed.

You are write when you mention that it was some time that GM Hwang Ki looking at the sky one night thingking about SooBahk/TangSoo Do that he idealised the idea of learning and that the Blue would be his idea and choise.

This is sort of a coinsidence since I when was studying TangSooDo; my techer would say that if you looked at the sky that the night if being Black you could not see the stars, makes snece and backs up the idea that Mr. Kee, HwangKi being the fouder that he would shoose this as a representation of the ranking system.

The reason being as I herard was that if you were just starting to learn when becoming a Black Belt that it Black representing the color of Death that this would mean that you could not learn any more once you made your Cho Dan or Black Belt because death means that once you achiev it there is no more experience to have and live it. Therefore the dark midnight-Blue was used to represent that the learning could continue.

HAP/TangSoo

Ramon Navarro
HapKiDo SabomNim
International Director :
Song Moo HapKiDo International
Panama Republic of Panama

Ps/ I am Ramon Navarro, a Hapkido Teacher now for 26 years and I am from the country of Panama. Welcomes anyone to the group on Korean martial art of self defense, benefits and its contradictions for the benefit of knowledge sharing and interchange experiences about all related with this art. All that we ask is respect. We will except members that speaks in English : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/songmookwanhapkidopanamaandtheworld/
and in Spanish : http://espanol.groups.yahoo.com/group/SongMooHapKiDoInternacional_Beneficios/

HAP


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## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Shinzu _
> *the phlosophy behind it is that wearing black is considered a finishing color, the end, or completion.  midnight blue is the closest color in relation to black but it symbolizes that there is still more to learn and that yourself nor your art are perfect by any means.
> 
> it also reminds you that there is always more you can add to it were black is complete.
> 
> i tend to agree with these statements but many people are ore used to seeing students with black belt rather than midnight blue.*



Hi, I'm not in TSD but I looked into this once myself because I thought the Midnight Blue thing might be a scam.  I found out essentially that the creator of the art set it up this way on purpose. I believe this is also reported in the Encyclopedia of Martial Arts.

However, if I am not mistaken this Midnight Blue vs Black thing stated by Shinzu is how Mr. Parker felt about Black and Red and he therefore designated Red as the "finishing color." Mr. Parker also required Black Belts to wear their Red Stripes and I presume this was to reinforce that there was more Black than Red.

I also understand that this is why he set up 10th as 2 "bars" with Black between them indicating that there was always room for improvement (more obvious with 2 bars than one solid red bar or a Red Belt or a Red and White Belt either I guess).

So I think Mr. Parker shared this philosophy about "not being done" as well.

As a matter of fact, in a video I did Mr. Bryan Hawkins says that Mr. Parker once told him that Mr. Parker himself learned something new about the art every day and that Mr. Parker thought that others out there should be able to learn something new every day as well.
:asian:


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## TallAdam85

seems i had a post just like this LoL


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## NYCRonin

30 years ago, I was one of the first 'teenagers' to earn a 'dun' ranking in TSD/MDK. The belt i was awarded was a belt handed down to me from my teacher...which came to him from his teacher...which came to himfro GM Hwang Kee. This tattered and worn belt was midnight blue (and wider than the general B.Belt).
Although I was taught the reason for that color (as opposed to black) it did not really matter.
Midnight blue, black, polka -dot...if the belt color really supercedes the relationships we might have to each other - then the 'belts' arent worth the colored cloth their made of. the art really is so much more important - as are our relationship to one another.
Didnt really matter 30 years ago - does it really matter today?

(If I wore any belt today to demonstrate 'rank' - the core color would be midnight blue).


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## Galvatron

What Ronin said!
Although, I might take issue with a polk-dot belt!


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## arnisador

I'm almost surprised that more arts don't use the midnight blue idea!


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## Akashiro Tamaya

I could not care less about the blackness or the deepest Blue belt as long as it is not like this guy...


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## Akashiro Tamaya

or this guy...


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## NYCRonin

"Ah, what fools these mortals be'
                - Oberon "A Midsummers Nights a dream"
The Bard of Avon would have had such fun with these subjects.


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## NYCRonin

Please pardon this fools typo's above - and I think it was actually a quote from Puck. The 'edit' function was not working.


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## Len Losik

Grandmaster Hwang Kee originally awarded black belts. He began awarding them in 1948 according to his book, "The History of the Moo Duk Kwan". Also according to the same book, Grandmaster Hwang Kee never tested for a black belt himself but began awarding them anyway in 1948. He received great criticism from other Korean Kwan leaders that had earned black belts before teaching Tang Soo Do, for awarding black belts even though he never tested for one. Finally, around 1968, he decided to stop awarding black belts to which he was receiving criticsm for, and award a color belt that no one else was using and he could then specify the testing requirements for. His choice of dark blue for the color may be consistant with the color belts that the Hwarang warriors wore as seen in old paintings still in existance.

Best Regards,

Len Losik


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## Makalakumu

arnisador said:
			
		

> What is the usual time to black (or midnight blue) belt in TSD? I know it tends to be about 2-2.5 years in TKD.



In my Dojang, the minimum time in which you can earn first dan is five years.


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## dosandojang

My Grand Master says that Doju Kee told him that he could wear either. Since I am under him, he says that I can do the same thing (I practice both TSD MDK and SBD MDK). I have one of each...


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## Len Losik

Hello All,

Grandmaster Hwang Kee began awarding black (colored) belts about 1 1/2 years after he began including Okinawan techniques into Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan from books he had at his place of employment. He awarded black colored belts to his senior students until about 1968 when he began thinking about changing Tang Soo Do to be more "Korean". He switched to dark blue colored belts because he was receiving some criticism from his peers since he never tested for the Okinawan black belts he was awarding to his senior students. Check it out in his book, "The History of Moo Duk Kwan" available from his org.

Best Regards,


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## dosandojang

Thank You Len!!!! I Would Love To Ask You Some Questions In Email!!!


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## Galvatron

I think that the reasoning behind the inception of the midnight blue belt is closer to Mr. Losik's story than it is anything philosophical.


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## glad2bhere

Before I say anything else, let me remind people that I am NOT a TSD practitioner. I would also remind people that I mean no disrespect to the art or its practitioners. That said may I state that IMVHO this discussion is counter-productive to the unification of the KMA. Please consider the following.

1.) Perhaps we KMA practitioners are better served by LESS variance in our standards. It is pretty apparent that the guep/dan system is going to be with us. If that is true then I think it behooves us to stay with a single color system with a agreed-upon range of colored belts for gueppies and a simple single width BB for under-ranks (1-3) and a double width for teachers. Oh, and the red/brown belts? Merge the two colors and make an auburn brown belt the uniform color. 

2.) Perhaps we KMA practitioners need a single uniform with the pull-over v-neck and "gi" pants for sport and the traditional do-bok for MA/SD arts. I would even go one farther and state that rather than use the hakama of the Japanese arts as the defacto weapons uniform for Korean weapons work, I believe that something closer to the han-bok style of uniform (such as the Hae Dong Kumdo people use) should be adopted. 

3.) Finally I think people should be dissuaded from inventing new uniforms, color schemes and using uniforms as an advertising platform. I also think that people need to shy away from designing uniforms that seem to invoke some cosmic interpretation of history and stay with the basics instead. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Galvatron

I'm a practitioner of a Korean art, but I am not Korean. I don't have that overactive sense of Korean nationalism that most (that I've met) seem to suffer from.
I personally couldn't care any less than I already do as to what color the uniform a school uses, what belt system they use, whether or not it's Japanese in origin, etc. So long as the technique stays sound, and stays true to the origin of the art, while adapting to the modern world.
Granted some of the uniforms I've seen are outright ridiculous in my eyes, but who am I to criticize the way another person does things?

My $0.02


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## Kodanjaclay

Bruce,

Since you are not a TSD guy, the belt actually represents something. It represents the sky and the infinite growth possible. Black is also viewed as the color of death and decay, two things that happen when we stop growing.

This is not what I would consider a new scheme, as it has been around for a number of years.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Frank: 

".....Since you are not a TSD guy, the belt actually represents something. It represents the sky and the infinite growth possible. Black is also viewed as the color of death and decay, two things that happen when we stop growing....." 

Yes, that is why I made the comment about making cosmic connections with the unifroms and their design. Shamanism, Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism have all had their impact on the Korean culture. Throw in numerology and geomancy and who knows where this stuff would stop. Imagine having a tournament cancelled because the appropriate place in which resides optimum cosmic energy could not be found. And while we are talking about death and decay I remember that white is the color of grieving but that does not stop the Japanese from using white do-gi. Of course the Midnight Blue belt could also respresent Fidelity as it does in our culture. Or maybe the depth of learning as in "the deep blue sea". Why not put rhinestones on the belt to indicate rank as a symbol of increasing purity? How about all-red uniforms to symbolize Chinese origins but cut like Han-bok to represent Korean training and the colored belt to symbolize Japanese influence? And why not make the top belt Yellow signifying that one has truely become one with Oriental culture?  This stuff could go on forever and it seems to serve no purpose except that people need to feel and be regarded as unique. And this I find strange as I was always led to believe that we trained to subdue our passions and need to express our ego.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Kodanjaclay

Bruce,

Why are you criticizing an art you do not practice? This is the accepted custom and TSD people are very proud of it. There are very few exams that test one as much as the test that allows one to don the red stripe in the center... and after which all of them look the same.

I am not sure of your intent, but I find your comments insulting. Hwang Kee chose the color for TSD, and his decision has been honored by many in TSD today. He is now deceased and it is disrespectful to insinuate anything other than what he intended.

This is not a Japanese forum, so I will not address Japanese custom. Tang Soo Do is based on the philosophy of No Ja and places special emphasis on training patterns related.

Rather than criticize, and read, why not try actually training in the art? Try Tang Soo Do. You might find it enjoyable, and then you might not.

Remember too, that the midnight dhee is a reminder of what Tang Soo Do people are trying to accomplish. If you cannot accept that, that is fine, but at least don't disrespect those to whom it does mean something.


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## Galvatron

I don't find his remarks remotely insulting, I see them as someone stating his opinion and take on a situation. 

Personally, my Grandmaster got his BLACK belt before the switch to the Midnight Blue belt was made, and he has always issued Black Belts to his Dan holders, even when he was affiliated with the Moo Duk Kwan.

Normally I don't tend to agree with what Mr. Losik has to say, and in many circumstances his remarks and contentions outright irritate me, but I am inclined to believe that the truth behind the creation of the Midnight Blue belt is much closer to what he stated it was.

:idunno:


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## Kodanjaclay

Mr. Losik's comments cannot be viewed as authoritative. He has consistently refused to provide sources.

I have heard many stories; however, the one regarding the sky and infinity makes sense when viewed with the writings of Hwang Kee.

Anyone who does TSD is free to wear black or blue. Those who subscribe to one philosophy wear one, and the others wear a different one. I doubt it is to "be different". I don the midnight blue as well, and am proud to have earned the right to wear it.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Frank: 

No one I know is being insulting or disrespectful. I mentioned at the beginning that I do not practice TSD but I still have an opinion about the use of  Black Belt versus Blue Belt. If you have a Blue Belt and are proud of it, and want to wear it, and believe in it and whatever it represents to you, go with Gawd. For myself, I take a different view of things. Should it ever come down to a discussion regarding who is respecting what art and in what way, I figure Hapkido has probably taken the worst beating over time of any Korean art, but that is for another string and another time. In the meantime I am trying to remember where it is written that I am mandated to reflect the commonly held beliefs when somebody asks me to comment. You will recall I think that I do not worship at the feet of GM Ji, I also believe that Chinese influences in Korean arts are getting short shrift and that traditional KMA require the study of hyung. All of these positions are less than popular, as has been my experience. Nobody has said that you are wrong for wearing a Midnight Blue belt or for invoking some cosmology to justify it. For my part I think the process is counter-productive to KMA and borders on the contrived. But thats just me opinion.  I could be wrong.  :idunno: 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Kodanjaclay

Bruce,

I suspect you are.


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## Len Losik

dosandojang said:
			
		

> Thank You Len!!!! I Would Love To Ask You Some Questions In Email!!!


Please feel free to contact me at lenlosik@sbcglobal.net


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## mtabone

Midnight Blue is a philosphy. That is it. 

As to someone comment on Unifing the Korean Arts, that is one whole other can of worms. I for one, do not want to be lumped together with other Korean Arts. I do Tang Soo Do. Not TKD, not Hopkido. I do Tang Soo Do, I dont want the same belt system, I dont want them looking anything like mine, and I dont want to look anything like them, because we are different systems, we are different arts, and we have different philophies, and idiologies. 

BUT, we are all brothers and sisters in the martial arts. (Not just Korean art brothers, we are all brothers and sisters in ALL Martial Arts)

I just wanted to state, and you can pretty much see how strongly I feel on this, about that unification thing. 

Namaste,
Michael Tabone
TANG SOO!!!!


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## Kodanjaclay

Well said Mike. This is exactly what I was referring to, even if it is "contrived".


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## dosandojang

I back Master Clay.  [font=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman][/font] 
[font=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman]FWIW:[/font]
[font=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman](The MDK organisation was founded on 9th November, 1945 by Grand Master Hwang Kee (Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee). The first MDK school was opened on the same date at Yong San Ku, Seoul, Korea. 
The MDK was founded principally to contribute to human development in Weh Gong (external power), Neh Gong (internal power) and Shim Gong (spiritual power). This MDK philosophy is based on Do (Tao) and the teachings of No Ja ( Lao Tzu). 

[/font]


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## Len Losik

Dear Galvatron,

Thank you for pointing out our differences of opinion. I am highly published author so there is a much higher chance of coming across something I have published than something from those that choose sit on the side lines and throw stones at others that do. I have published more than 20 martial arts articles in 5 magazines and 15 books on martial arts. I am a physicist by education and employment, an electrical engineer by education and employment, I have earned a BS in Physics and Math, and an MS in Electrical Engineering. I'm currently working on an MA degree in Education simultaneously with a teaching certificate. I have trained in TSD for 27 years, earning black belts in both MDKTSD and TKD at 2 different schools.

Please feel free to contact me at lenlosik@sbcglobal.net regarding my objectionable material.

Sincerely,

Len Losik


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## Kodanjaclay

Len,

He was not trying to insult you as far as I saw. He is merely saying that he agrees with you in regards to the creation of the blue belt.


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## Galvatron

Dear Lenny,
I don't understand how the "resume" you just posted has anything to do with me...
I was saying that while I don't normally agree with what you generally have to say, I DO AGREE WITH YOU concerning the creation of the "midnight blue" belt, and it appears I'm the only one in this thread that does.
So I ask, what's your point?


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## dosandojang

Some of my TKD/TSD Students...


http://img55.photobucket.com/albums/v167/MasterArce/group.jpg


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## Moo D

Sorry I don't understand Mr Losiks post???

The thread was about the belt colour philosophy, I don't see where the CV fits into the colour question??

Regards


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## glad2bhere

For my part I still don't follow the use of Midnight Blue. As a Confucian society I would have thought that maybe a Yellow or a Red might have been used. Weren't those the colors of the highest ranks. Then again, perhaps as a Buddhist society an Ochre, Saffron or Beize (Natural Color) belt might embodied the idea of on-going search. Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Moo D

Bruce,

I believe that DJN Hwang was inspired by the Taoist beliefs, and certainly the Moo Duk Kwan Philiosophies are built on this, peace, harmony and a respect for all of nature and the universe (and where we fit in the scope of things).

The colour Midnight blue is used in Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan and handed down by DJN Hwang. It means simply that learning is endless, committing all of ones life to the path will earn you experience and skill but keeps the strive for perfection ongoing. The Colour is the deepest blue and is as close to black as possible without being black. This means that blue can always be added as experience is gained and become closer and closer to perfection. However, perfection is the end as their is nothing beyond perfect technique, thus the path or journey ends. 

As we all know, perfection is within our grasp but always eludes us, hence we dedicate our life to the pursuit of perfection by learning and training and seeking knowledge. My KJN Lee, Kang uk often says that even after all his years of training, he is still only a student of the art and needs to practice every day to learn more about himself and the art.

Regards,


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## Llarion

Before I read this thread, I subscribed to the "midnight blue" theory; but having read the black belt fading posts, I sort of like the elegance of that. I think now that either would be satisfactory. However, if tradition favors the midnight blue (as my school does), then I guess that's they way it will be for me. Interesting thread in any event. This is my first forum post, it looks like a really great forum!


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## glad2bhere

Dear MooD: 

I kinda like the idea of always "adding more blue to make it deeper".  Thanks. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Moo D

Thanks Bruce,

Hence always a student!!

Regards


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## TacticalMan

Black or midnight blue, to me it is irrelevant.  I appreciate the philosophy of the blue, the simplicity of the black.  They both equate to the same thing:  This student has met a set standard of knowledge and skill.  However, any martial artist worth his salt never needs a reminder that there is always more to learn.  Nobody will ever be perfect, all we need to be is a little better than we were yesterday.


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## Robert Lee

I thought the mid night blue or royal blue belt was put in place of the blackbelt for tang soo do After a restructure of hwong kee group and an instructor list was made of all member instructors. This list was put in I believe black belt magizine Show show only those instructors as the authorized instructors of the group. all others were not members or listed instructors. So the royal blue/ midnight blue came into place.I May but a little off but I think not much on this aspect.


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## trueaspirer

The belt, for us (my ma school) is more of an experience ranking than anything else. It often indicates better skill, but not necessarily.
While some mas do exist without belts at all, the ranking system helps keep some sense of order, especially in a small school such as mine which has an at-home feel to it, and everybody knows each other personally.
As for the bb specifically, I don't think that it makes much of a difference in peoples minds, as to how it affects their attitude about themselves, although I do agree with the midnight blue philosophy.


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## Komah

Black = end
Blue = everlasting ocean

I agree with it but I do wish we could wear black instead of blue


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## Makalakumu

Komah said:


> Black = end
> Blue = everlasting ocean
> 
> I agree with it but I do wish we could wear black instead of blue


 
In my school, black is used because it represents death.  Chodan is the death of one stage of your training and the birth of another.

I tell my students that when they get to blackbelt, they start over.


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## mjd

I believe Black does not stand for perfection, it is completion or (Maturity) of one cycle or phase, I do not beleive it stands for death, death is the end, there is no end, there is a different or new cycle.

I once heard a Master say the colors of the belts is never ending and aways changing, certain colors highlight significant events or changes in the cycle of life. When the colors stop changing it is the end.


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## Makalakumu

mjd said:


> I believe Black does not stand for perfection, it is completion or (Maturity) of one cycle or phase, I do not beleive it stands for death, death is the end, there is no end, there is a different or new cycle.
> 
> I once heard a Master say the colors of the belts is never ending and aways changing, certain colors highlight significant events or changes in the cycle of life. When the colors stop changing it is the end.


 
Just as you cannot have an end without a beginning, you cannot have life with death.  

The black color of chodan represents the death of the "gup" phase of your training and the birth of the "dan" phase.

Or as I like to put it, chodan is where you start over.


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## PeppersPetHuman

At the school where I have trained for eight years, I have only seen midnight blue belts. They still call it a "black belt",  but the belt itself is blue. I really don't have a preference.


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## foggymorning162

I don't think the color really matters as long as you worked hard to earn it do you really need a belt to prove your knowledge and skill? But what we were told was the old masters wore white belts (or plain) and they got darker and darker as they trained until they became black. It is considered bad luck to wash your belt as it washes away the knowledge.


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## Chizikunbo

Shinzu said:


> what are your thoughts on these two aspects? just a color or something deeper?
> 
> i myself feel that a belt is just that. however i do agree with the philosophy behind the midnight blue color. i have worn both. what do you guys think??


 
First let me state I think the belt system has way to much emphasis placed on it these days. In any case, however I think that midnight blue is a part of the lineage of Tang Soo Do, and part of the Tang Soo Doin's identity. However, it is a matter of personal choice (or organizational choice) as to whether or not you wear the midnight blue or black.
Midnight blue is strongly tied with the philosophy of Taoism, midnight blue is the color of the deep dark ocean from which life began, and the color of the night time sky to which life returns. It symbolizes a full circle. Also ancient korean scholars coats often were adorned with midnight blue trim very reminiscent of the way we wear it today, and the trim was actually died indigo, because ancient indigo inks were much deeper, darker and richer than those of today. The blue was so blue it was almost indistinguishable from black, unless you paid close scrutiny to the garmets in question. Hwang Kee wittnessed some ancient garmets with this deep dark trim and began using it in his Moo Duk Kwan but it is actually part of Koreas ancient heritage, I rather like it...
--Josh


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## orestes

The colour black is in Korea associated with death, and the ending of things. Dark blue, however, is associated with fruition and fulfillment. This is stated in one of the first news letters of the us tsd mdk federation.

greetings ron


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