# No difference only the names been changed



## ancient warrior (Feb 22, 2008)

All of the best hrd black sashes that have left the  whrd assoc. still train and teach the same old hrd  art, only its modified  to fit their situation  of comfort without a lawsuit funny how they bash headquarters and keep on teaching..... the same stuff


----------



## terryl965 (Feb 23, 2008)

And your point is?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Feb 23, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> And your point is?


 
What terry said


----------



## arnisador (Feb 23, 2008)

ancient warrior said:


> All of the best hrd black sashes that have left the  whrd assoc. still train and teach the same old hrd  art, only its modified  to fit their situation  of comfort without a lawsuit funny how they bash headquarters and keep on teaching..... the same stuff



This is a story as old as the martial arts...and the plot of many kung fu movies. The senior students leave, form their own schools, teach barely modified material, and badmouth their old instructor.

Sometimes it's justified; sometimes it's understandable; and sometimes it's just ego.


----------



## MBuzzy (Feb 23, 2008)

Maybe this thread should just list all of the other styles that this has happened to!  I'll start....Soo Bahk Do and Tang Soo Do - used to be one style.


----------



## arnisador (Feb 23, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> I'll start....Soo Bahk Do and Tang Soo Do - used to be one style.



Yes, named Shotokan karate!


----------



## JWLuiza (Feb 23, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Yes, named Shotokan karate!


 
ZING!!!  Actually, probably not Shotokan because of the inclusion of Lohai and not Meikyo....  And there were several Tang Soo Dos....


----------



## bdparsons (Feb 23, 2008)

ancient warrior said:


> All of the best hrd black sashes that have left the whrd assoc. still train and teach the same old hrd art, only its modified to fit their situation of comfort without a lawsuit funny how they bash headquarters and keep on teaching..... the same stuff


 
How is this different from the Lee brothers leaving the Hapkido fold and claiming that they now were the masters of an "ancient" art that COINCIDENTALLY looked just like the Hapkido they were teaching only a short time before??

Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


----------



## arnisador (Feb 24, 2008)

JWLuiza said:


> ZING!!!  Actually, probably not Shotokan because of the inclusion of Lohai and not Meikyo....  And there were several Tang Soo Dos....



Heh, OK, yes, it was a bit more complicated than I indicated...


----------



## matt.m (Feb 24, 2008)

Ah, I am not going to touch this subject with the exception of the following: A lot of arts across the board have similiar or borrowed techniques.

The main thing is the difference in the ideology of why the technique is being used.  From what I have seen of Aikido and Hapkido I have made the following conclusion:  A lot of it looks the same, however 1 is more for just redirection and getting away.  The other is for destruction and then walking away.

If you look at the differences between tae kwon do and karate a lot is in the footwork, the same with hapkido and aikido.  Look at Kumdo vs Kendo......same story, major difference is footwork and reason of application.

Just my .02


----------



## SageGhost83 (Feb 24, 2008)

bdparsons said:


> How is this different from the Lee brothers leaving the Hapkido fold and claiming that they now were the masters of an "ancient" art that COINCIDENTALLY looked just like the Hapkido they were teaching only a short time before??
> 
> Bill Parsons
> Triangle Kenpo Institute


 
I think that is probably the main reason why we have so many "different" styles to begin with. Someone gains master rank in one style then leaves that style, gives their training a new name, and teaches it as an entirely new style altogether. Of course, that is only one reason and not the sole reason (or so I would hope :lol.


----------



## searcher (Feb 24, 2008)

Sice we are throwing out styles that this has happened to, you have to include All of the Okinawan karate styles.   It seems that every generation thinks they can do it better.


----------



## shesulsa (Feb 24, 2008)

ancient warrior said:


> All of the best hrd black sashes that have left the  whrd assoc. still train and teach the same old hrd  art, only its modified  to fit their situation  of comfort without a lawsuit funny how they bash headquarters and keep on teaching..... the same stuff



You know ... THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT OBSERVATION.

Firstly, I'm curious ... you said all the best HRD black sashes that left bash headquarters ... I don't see that, could you be more specific?  I'm also curious ... exactly how much do you know about the situation? The people involved? Are you trusting the words of one person? one group of people? Have you ever interviewed any of these people face-to-face? What do you think they would have to say?

But I digress ... the most important point you made was that they keep on teaching the same stuff.  

When you become a black sash, you swear an oath that you will somehow spread the art and that it will be a part of your life for the rest of your life.  It seems these black sashes took their oaths seriously.

Is there ... a problem with that?


----------



## ancient warrior (Feb 27, 2008)

i wont mention names but we all know these great teachers that have gone on to teach their  own modified systems of the 60s-70s hrd system taught by the lee bros. i'm just thinking that it was money driven to leave whrd assoc. its probably very hard for a young small school to survive in todays market of (franks) karate schools, but leaving whrd u have no connection to the grandmaster no accountability to the highest rank in the system. this is unfair to students.


----------



## shesulsa (Feb 27, 2008)

ancient warrior said:


> i wont mention names but we all know these great teachers that have gone on to teach their  own modified systems of the 60s-70s hrd system taught by the lee bros. i'm just thinking that it was money driven to leave whrd assoc. its probably very hard for a young small school to survive in todays market of (franks) karate schools, but leaving whrd u have no connection to the grandmaster no accountability to the highest rank in the system. this is unfair to students.


I think you are speaking of issues you don't know enough about to give a qualified opinion on.  Nor, really, do I - all I know is what has been told to me and what is left on this side of the fence.  The rest is none of my business - nor is it yours.

I would advise you to drop it out of respect for others who have worked FAR harder FAR LONGER than either you or I.

Farang.


----------



## tkd1964 (Feb 27, 2008)

ancient warrior said:


> All of the best hrd black sashes that have left the whrd assoc. still train and teach the same old hrd art, only its modified to fit their situation of comfort without a lawsuit funny how they bash headquarters and keep on teaching..... the same stuff


 
I haven't heard anyone of these instructors talk bad about the HQ other then one. But I have read on the WHRD site many accusations of these instructors. It was said that none realy tested for there Black Sash, yet  Master Peter Kim was his go to guy for demos along with Master Duggan. Master DeAlba made a deal with them and puff, his rank is back.
The WHRDA feels that they can control the art and the instructors but they can't. How can you take back what you have taught?


----------



## arnisador (Feb 27, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> I think you are speaking of issues you don't know enough about to give a qualified opinion on.



That's pretty common here, isn't it?

I bought all three volumes of the HRD books when they first came out. The art looked fascinating but the backstory was clearly fabricated. I would be curious to know the whole truth, but frankly, it hardly matters--it's an old story to put a legendary spin on a newer art, and in post-Japan occupation Korea it was almost mandatory to do so it seems.


----------



## ancient warrior (Feb 27, 2008)

isnt this a place of  honorable discussion? i believe its anyones business who  trains in hrd  .I see these schools teaching modified cirriculum and  the students have no idea they even have a grandmaster with a set system in place for years. anything i say will not take anything from anyone, but it may cause someoneto look inward as to why?


----------



## ancient warrior (Feb 27, 2008)

its not about controlling the art its more of keeping the standard high .





tkd1964 said:


> I haven't heard anyone of these instructors talk bad about the HQ other then one. But I have read on the WHRD site many accusations of these instructors. It was said that none realy tested for there Black Sash, yet Master Peter Kim was his go to guy for demos along with Master Duggan. Master DeAlba made a deal with them and puff, his rank is back.
> The WHRDA feels that they can control the art and the instructors but they can't. How can you take back what you have taught?


----------



## tkd1964 (Feb 28, 2008)

ancient warrior said:


> its not about controlling the art its more of keeping the standard high .


 
It is about control. These Masters had a meeting to make up a new organization because of the hold he tried to have on them. When the WHRDA found out, everyone was demoted to white sash. 
Sooner or later a bird has to leave the nest and learn to fly. There are Masters out there that have gone on their own yet still train under their original instructor because their original instructor respected their decision to move on. Respect is a two way street.


----------



## shesulsa (Feb 28, 2008)

ancient warrior said:


> isnt this a place of  honorable discussion? i believe its anyones business who  trains in hrd  .I see these schools teaching modified cirriculum and  the students have no idea they even have a grandmaster with a set system in place for years. anything i say will not take anything from anyone, but it may cause someoneto look inward as to why?


If you think that hasn't been done, you're incorrect.  And you're also incorrect to think that anyone who trains non-WHRDA doesn't know who DJN is.  Again, you're speaking to things you know nothing about.



ancient warrior said:


> its not about controlling the art its more of keeping the standard high .


It most definitely is about controlling the art.  But I think to bring a martial art to the West and expect all who train it to be exceptional is a misguided ideal.  

You might want to hold your opinion until you have the opportunity to train with these ... in your words, money-obsessed, masterless, unfaithful people. :shrug:  You may think all is being told to you.  You'd be wrong to think that.


----------



## ancient warrior (Feb 28, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> If you think that hasn't been done, you're incorrect. And you're also incorrect to think that anyone who trains non-WHRDA doesn't know who DJN is. Again, you're speaking to things you know nothing about.
> 
> 
> It most definitely is about controlling the art. But I think to bring a martial art to the West and expect all who train it to be exceptional is a misguided ideal.
> ...


 in my words where?>> how can u control the art ?> one thing for sure there is a  huge difference between a black belt in hrd and tkd  or most other arts > i have been on both sides of the fence  on the training  where the difference is night and day sorry if u dont want to accept it but thats the way it is. you are still missing my point shesulsa, its about the linage and the true no holds barred  spirit is not being passed on.
i believe all of our training will be as good as we make it ourselves in the end.


----------



## terryl965 (Feb 28, 2008)

ancient warrior said:


> isnt this a place of honorable discussion? i believe its anyones business who trains in hrd .I see these schools teaching modified cirriculum and the students have no idea they even have a grandmaster with a set system in place for years. anything i say will not take anything from anyone, but it may cause someoneto look inward as to why?


 
Honorable decussion Please for thast do we not need the whole truth from all parties like that is ever going to happen.


----------



## terryl965 (Feb 28, 2008)

ancient warrior said:


> its not about controlling the art its more of keeping the standard high .


 
Please this is a total control issue with ego's so big they can not fit in the state of Texas.


----------



## terryl965 (Feb 28, 2008)

ancient warrior said:


> in my words where?>> how can u control the art ?> *one thing for sure there is a huge difference between a black belt in hrd and tkd or most other arts *> i have been on both sides of the fence on the training where the difference is night and day sorry if u dont want to accept it but thats the way it is. you are still missing my point shesulsa, its about the linage and the true no holds barred spirit is not being passed on.
> i believe all of our training will be as good as we make it ourselves in the end.


 
This I find so funny, I have been around a long time as well and there are so much bad and good in both arts that it is hard too say. Who's Linage, why is it his only what about giving the whole pictures and trath and then come back with some proof. We all know the stories and fabrication that has been around, so enlighten me with your version of the truth I'm listening.


----------



## Errant108 (Feb 28, 2008)

ancient warrior said:


> its about the linage and the true no holds barred  spirit is not being passed on.



What lineage are you speaking of?


----------



## shesulsa (Feb 28, 2008)

ancient warrior said:


> in my words where?>>


Here:


ancient warrior said:


> i wont mention names but we all know these great teachers that have gone on to teach their own modified systems of the 60s-70s hrd system taught by the lee bros. i'm just thinking that *it was money driven* to leave whrd assoc. its probably very hard for a young small school to survive in todays market of (franks) karate schools, but leaving whrd *u have no connection to the grandmaster* *no accountability to the highest rank* in the system. this is unfair to students.


See?



> how can u control the art ?>


By copyrighting intellectual material, the name of the style and the characters used in the name of the style.



> one thing for sure there is a  huge difference between a black belt in hrd and tkd  or most other arts >


What does that have to do with the discussion? You're accusing some very talented people - "The best HRD black belts" - your words again - see quote above - of leaving and doing things you think they're doing - or have been told they are doing, and of not doing things you think they're not or have been told they're not doing. What does that have to do with TKD black belts?


> i have been on both sides of the fence  on the training  where the difference is night and day sorry if u dont want to accept it but thats the way it is.


You've trained with a non-WHRDA black belt? Please PM me and tell me who - I may forgive you for attacking people I care about.



> you are still missing my point shesulsa, its about the linage and the true no holds barred  spirit is not being passed on.


I don't know which non-WHRDA person you trained with and find your perception interesting.


> i believe all of our training will be as good as we make it ourselves in the end.


That's the best thing you've said so far.


----------



## mystic warrior (Feb 29, 2008)

Ok Enough
All of you are right.
As a former member of WHRDA I know things that most of you NON-WHRDA members don't. I have spoke with Master Kim. I have had emails with Master De Alba.

Yes there are things going on in Hwa rang do that are bad. And yes there things that are non of your business as shesulsa said. And I am sure that DJN has trained with other Korean masters of other arts that are close to hapkido. And has mixed mashed it with other things. SO WHAT.

Let me ask you all this. Will it change your training to know the truth of said art. If not great, good for you. You are a better person than most.
If it does change they way you think than maybe just maybe that art is not for you.

And you need to move on and get over it. Life is to shot to be wasting time on a martial art forum whining about what happened 30 to 40 years ago that you were not apart of.

I have trained in WHRDA and I have trained in other Korean arts. And yes alot of thing things are the same so what.
Posts like this become really petty and no one really learns anything about anything. 

I am starting to see a trend in these post people asking the same sh--!
over and over again with out doing searches on the forum. Most of the people on here have talked these topics to death.

And the new ones that pop on here are saying the same thing.
I'll tell ya what DJN is going to be DJN and Master Lee well( he is going to be master lee) And Master Kim is going to be Master Kim. Will your life change that much to know things that are really non of your pay grade.

And like I said before if you don't like it leave. You have that right no one is holding your hand. Think of HRD like a family, some times family's do good things some times they don't. But unlike blood family you can leave HRD. There are many more people that will join and take your place. 
That goes with any art not just Hwa rang do. And complaining on a forum is NOT going to change anything. Training and asking the key people if they even want to tell you. (may) But until thing.

Now that I have done my whining. I know my post will be forgotten and this will show up again. But I have said my piece.


----------



## shesulsa (Feb 29, 2008)

Yeah, see ... there's truth-seeking and then there's just ... dissing.

I just won't join the Lee-bashing party. I won't.  This is a great art, history be whatever it is, it is a _great_ _art_.  I have great respect for the man who came up with this even though I'm not affiliated with his organization.  I'm loyal to my teacher because I believe in that tenet.

But I won't dis WHRDA.  Don't like to listen to it done towards either camp, either.

It's a damn shame when splits like this happen - but it's not the first time and it won't be the last.


----------



## jim777 (Mar 3, 2008)

mystic warrior said:


> And you need to move on and get over it. Life is to short to be wasting time on a martial art forum whining about what happened 30 to 40 years ago that you were not apart of.


 
That should be carved in stone and placed over the front door...


----------



## lulflo (Mar 3, 2008)

I would say that the peripheral information contained in history is there to enlighten those who seek the information, but do not taint the individual by that which is found, we are students who are training and part of the training is how you handle the information you are given.  Whether it is a physical technique, a mental quandary, or a spiritual journey, it is up to the student to process it and move on.  Unless one is prepared to fight to the bitter end of any said cause, complaining is not part of training, it hinders it and will only cause a decline of will.  No one wins.

Farang - Larry


----------



## tiger2000 (May 21, 2008)

i have just read this thread and to be fair this goes on in my art kuk sool won. yes there are discrepancies sp? in the history of this art as well but at the time of joining kuk sool i knew nothing of the art other than i liked the instructor enjoyed the lessons and liked what i was learning. Of course i am curious as to the truth about the roots of the art but after 15 yrs training i can say that this is a fine martial art my instructor is someone i can look up to Suh ,In Hyuk someone whos martial skill i admire the truth wont change this. Despite the dodgy buisness practices it is the art i enjoy its my money and i feel i am getting value  for  money if you feel the same in your art what difference does it make


----------



## SageGhost83 (May 21, 2008)

I think that we get so caught up in history that we miss the most important part of the arts - actually practicing them today and making them work for us in the here and now. We all know the story concerning HRD, the dodgy business practices, and the fabricated history. These things, however, do not change the fact that Hwarangdo is an awesome system with awesome practitioners within its ranks who have the physical and mental skills to more than back up their training. Don't get me wrong - history is very important, however, the most important thing is the actual practice of the art itself and despite the shady goings on in the political side of the art, the skills and tactics taught within the art are legitimate and the skills of its highest ranking members are true. It is unfortunate that Hwarangdo has experienced such things, however, *every* style has experienced things like this to a varying degree at some point. When I trained in Shotokan, my sensei informed me there were many rivalries and splits that took place within Japanese Karate, itself. Don't even get me started on all of the tall tales within Japanese Karate that are treated as unquestionable truths, either. I was in Ninjutsu/Budo Taijutsu for a number of years too and I am quite sure that everybody is familiar with the issues that go on in that area, too. I am currently in TKD so that is a whole other can of worms, as well. Politics and lies are prevelant in *all* arts, but that doesn't diminish the skillsets or the proficiency of the masters in *any* art. The skills are still legit and the masters are still, well, masters (of course, I am talking about real masters here - people who actually put in the time and attained the necessary skills to rightfully be called *master*). Likewise, they *all* still deserve their due respect regardless of the politics that take place within them as the political side is touching a different area entirely. The most important thing is that we focus on our training and enjoy our arts. Humans will always be human, after all. I will always tell the truth and make sure those who train with me know the truth. I will also respect the art and its masters who put in the time and have the skills to back up their designation as masters.


----------

