# Karate fight plans



## FeralKenpo (Jun 18, 2009)

Are there any specific karate fight plans or strategies that karateka use when they fight? Are there different strategies in Shotokan as opposed to Kyokushin, Gojo Ryu etc.?


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## Andrew Green (Jun 18, 2009)

FeralKenpo said:


> Are there different strategies in Shotokan as opposed to Kyokushin



Absolutely, those two are pretty much opposite ends of the spectrum.  Shotokan is about the first hit, Kyokushin fighters will often take a hit to deliver a harder one.


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## FeralKenpo (Jun 18, 2009)

Andrew Green said:


> Absolutely, those two are pretty much opposite ends of the spectrum.  Shotokan is about the first hit, Kyokushin fighters will often take a hit to deliver a harder one.


So Kyokushin karateka allow themselves to be struck so that they can set up a harder strike? Interesting o_0


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## dancingalone (Jun 18, 2009)

Classical goju seeks to close in tightly with the opponent to strike with a variety of attacks, including grabs or tears to delicate tissue areas.  Sanchin is practiced to help develop some resistance to damage to one's torso as part of this strategy to get in close.  There's abundant sweeping and throwing too.

Of course, sport karate is another story.  If you watch tournament fights between goju or shito-ryu or shotokan, etc, they tend to look all alike because of the rule set.


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## terryl965 (Jun 18, 2009)

All of them have one common thing and that is to survive if need be.


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## jarrod (Jun 18, 2009)

from what i can see from my limited enshin training, the idea is to get in the opponent's blind spot, sweep them, & finish them with strikes.

jf


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 18, 2009)

FeralKenpo said:


> Are there any specific karate fight plans or strategies that karateka use when they fight? Are there different strategies in Shotokan as opposed to Kyokushin, Gojo Ryu etc.?


If you mean tournament fights, then it would be dependent upon the rule set in question.

Daniel


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## Moebius (Jun 18, 2009)

jarrod said:


> from what i can see from my limited enshin training, the idea is to get in the opponent's blind spot, sweep them, & finish them with strikes.
> 
> jf


I think that is a good idea in general.


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## FeralKenpo (Jun 18, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If you mean tournament fights, then it would be dependent upon the rule set in question.
> 
> Daniel



I was not referring to tournament fights. I'm asking more about in a self defense situation, no rules. Well I like some rules when sparring, I don't want to ACTUALLY die when I train! o_0

All good answers!

I'm asking this question because I want to train in an art/school that trains harder. I enjoy my training at my dojo aswell as the art that I currently train in, but I feel that I need harder training. We don't do enough drills or sparring for me, and the sparring contact is not heavy enough. I feel that we have no specific fight plan, just a bunch of different techniques(which are good). I want to find a school/art that trains hard and effectively. (I know it is generally the school not the style) I don't want to train in mma mainly because I don't want to actually compete(well probably not), but I want to train harder.
I just recently won in the grand championships at a local tournament in kata, so my kata is pretty good. (first tournament!)

But my sparring and grappling isn't very good.

I love kata but I want more live training o_0 !

I guess I went a little bit off topic. I should have just put that in the OP.


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## Moebius (Jun 18, 2009)

FeralKenpo said:


> Are there any specific karate fight plans or strategies that karateka use when they fight? Are there different strategies in Shotokan as opposed to Kyokushin, Gojo Ryu etc.?



It has been my experience that in regards to self-defense techniques there is a lot of mixing between the arts.  When I trained in Okinawan Kenpo we learned wrist locks and arm bars and throws that could be seen as coming from Judo or Ju jitsu.  I think it would be hard to find a dojo that truly did not incorporate any outside arts in regards to fighting and self defense.

That being said, if you feel deficient in some aspect of self defense perhaps you should try some cross training.  I am a big fan of cross training, but only after mastering the basics of your original art first.  Just my 2 cents.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 19, 2009)

FeralKenpo said:


> I was not referring to tournament fights. I'm asking more about in a self defense situation, no rules. Well I like some rules when sparring, I don't want to ACTUALLY die when I train! o_0
> 
> All good answers!
> 
> ...


Well, if it is hard training you are after, Kyokushin training is highly regarded, even by those who generally do not care for TMA.  

As for your sparring and grappling, are they not good in relation to others in your class or on the competitions circuit?  If it is in relation to your peers, I would discuss it with your instructor and asked to be pushed harder before changing styles.  Also ask him to evaluate your shortcomings and how to fix them.  It could be that hard training is not your problem.  

And congrats on the Kata first place!

Daniel


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## FeralKenpo (Jun 19, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Well, if it is hard training you are after, Kyokushin training is highly regarded, even by those who generally do not care for TMA.
> 
> As for your sparring and grappling, are they not good in relation to others in your class or on the competitions circuit?  If it is in relation to your peers, I would discuss it with your instructor and asked to be pushed harder before changing styles.  Also ask him to evaluate your shortcomings and how to fix them.  It could be that hard training is not your problem.
> 
> ...



Thank you Dan, I will take your advice. 
I am pretty good in comparison to my peers, but the school is very small, so I don't have many. The sparring and grappling is scarce. So that contributes to why I feel inadequate. My instructor has been practicing for 35 years, so he has alot to offer in many ways and I'm glad he is my instructor. So I'm not putting him down in any way, I just want more 'hands on' training so to speak. I've tried atleast one class at most of the schools around where I live and I have stuck with this school because the instructor's technique really amazes me. 

So in a nutshell I love my instruction just not enough drills or hands on stuff.
I practice almost every waking hour of my life, and I've been doing that for years. 
If I do switch styles it won't be any time soon(years), life's busy and full of surprises.


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## searcher (Jun 19, 2009)

FeralKenpo, if you want hard street based training, go to a Kajukenbo school.    It is about are hard as I have ever seen when it comes to training.


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## FeralKenpo (Jun 19, 2009)

searcher said:


> FeralKenpo, if you want hard street based training, go to a Kajukenbo school.    It is about are hard as I have ever seen when it comes to training.



I would but there are no schools in my area(Milford, NH). 
Kajukenbo would be awesome.


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## searcher (Jun 19, 2009)

FeralKenpo said:


> I would but there are no schools in my area(Milford, NH).
> Kajukenbo would be awesome.


 

Do you train at Hudson Kenpo Karate?

What are your options in your area?    How far are you willing to drive to train?    You might be able to find another place if you are willing to travel.


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## FeralKenpo (Jun 27, 2009)

searcher said:


> Do you train at Hudson Kenpo Karate?
> 
> What are your options in your area?    How far are you willing to drive to train?    You might be able to find another place if you are willing to travel.



No I don't train at Hudson Kenpo Karate. I would probably drive 45 minutes tops(gas is so expensive). I live in Milford, NH.


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## Hyper_Shadow (Jun 28, 2009)

Couple of little points, thought I'd stick my oar in and see what happens. Bear with me as I haven't posted on here in a while and me writing is a little rusty.



> Classical goju seeks to close in tightly with the opponent to strike with a variety of attacks, including grabs or tears to delicate tissue areas. Sanchin is practiced to help develop some resistance to damage to one's torso as part of this strategy to get in close.



Would you say that the only purpose of Sanchin is to build bodily resistance? If so I would have to disagree. Based on my experience of kata it was designed for the sole purpose of hiding the execution of deathly attacks to the opponent. All kata was designed for this purpose and this purpose alone. As far as I am led to believe there is no other reason for kata to exist. All karate can be found in kata.



> Okinawan Kenpo we learned wrist locks and arm bars and throws that could be seen as coming from Judo or Ju jitsu



Karate isn't restricted to simple strikes and so called 'blocks'. It is all encompassing. There are strikes, throws, chokes, locks controls, takedowns, control of anatomically vulnerable points and a miriad of other things in kata. All you have to do is look, that is the kakushi waza, the gokui.



> My instructor has been practicing for 35 years, so he has alot to offer in many ways and I'm glad he is my instructor. So I'm not putting him down in any way, I just want more 'hands on' training so to speak. I've tried atleast one class at most of the schools around where I live and I have stuck with this school because the instructor's technique really amazes me.



On a personal note, I started with Judo at high school, then moved into JuJitsu a year or so later, then about 6 months on I found the dojo I'm at now. I been training Okinawan Tode ever since. Different people train in different things, but that's not what's important in martial arts. The real important thing, that almost everyone overlooks is whether they're being given crap on a plate. If people advertise themselves as being the best and ultimate at everything and that you too will become a man of steel, then you're beeing fed (to put it politely) horsecrap. If they say something along the lines of we'll give you some skills, but it's up to you what you do with em, that's a bit better. If they say this is what we have, train if you want, but we will tell you why as well as how, then you may have struck gold. Just find somewhere you can ask questions. if your questions are welcomed and you recieve adequate replies then stick it through, if not then move on. If you really want the 'it' that martial artists aspire to (look into kata and the word shimeijurasan) then there are no lengths you wouldn't go to for it.

Anyways, I hope I helped some there, told ya'll I was a bit rusty.


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## jks9199 (Jun 28, 2009)

Hyper_Shadow said:


> Would you say that the only purpose of Sanchin is to build bodily resistance? If so I would have to disagree. Based on my experience of kata it was designed for the sole purpose of hiding the execution of deathly attacks to the opponent. All kata was designed for this purpose and this purpose alone. As far as I am led to believe there is no other reason for kata to exist. All karate can be found in kata.
> 
> 
> 
> Karate isn't restricted to simple strikes and so called 'blocks'. It is all encompassing. There are strikes, throws, chokes, locks controls, takedowns, control of anatomically vulnerable points and a miriad of other things in kata. All you have to do is look, that is the kakushi waza, the gokui.



I think you may be overstating the idea of interpreting kata.  Kata exist for a number of purposes, in both traditional and more modern martial arts.  Some contain a catalog of techniques that can be decoded from them; others teach principles.  Still others are simply exercises for a group to do as a form of practice.  

Remember that when the Okinawan karate arts were introduced to Japan, they were altered and elements invented to satisfy the Japanese mindset.  I've noticed a tendency over the last decade or two of people to put almost too much emphasis on forms and kata as being some sort of ultimate repository of the "real" martial arts.  To paraphrase Freud, sometimes a punch is just a punch!


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## chinto (Jun 29, 2009)

there are some differences in the doctrine of combat between some of the styles of Okinawan karate, that said all of the traditional and old styles have strikes, locks, throws, and brakes as well as sweeps and most any thing you can think of.   the Okinawans developed the art of Karate to defend themselves in life and death encounters.  It was not developed for some kind of prize fight of sport.


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## Hyper_Shadow (Jun 30, 2009)

> I think you may be overstating the idea of interpreting kata. Kata exist for a number of purposes, in both traditional and more modern martial arts. Some contain a catalog of techniques that can be decoded from them; others teach principles. Still others are simply exercises for a group to do as a form of practice.
> 
> Remember that when the Okinawan karate arts were introduced to Japan, they were altered and elements invented to satisfy the Japanese mindset. I've noticed a tendency over the last decade or two of people to put almost too much emphasis on forms and kata as being some sort of ultimate repository of the "real" martial arts. To paraphrase Freud, sometimes a punch is just a punch!



Good point, well spoken. I wouldn't consider kata the ultimate repository for tode, however, so much has been lost or watered down over the years that it is the only true source of undiluted knowledge. I still stick by what I say when I say you can find all of martial arts in kata. And I have to disagree with the use of kata as just an exercise. If that is taught anywhere (in terms of okinawan tode) it is categorically wrong. Kata was made so the poor could practice without fear of being killed by samurai who stole their land. These techniques were then employed to kill samurai and bandits too.



> there are some differences in the doctrine of combat between some of the styles of Okinawan karate, that said all of the traditional and old styles have strikes, locks, throws, and brakes as well as sweeps and most any thing you can think of. the Okinawans developed the art of Karate to defend themselves in life and death encounters. It was not developed for some kind of prize fight of sport.



To put it simply, that's what I should have said. The stark difference between true tode jutsu and the martial arts that it seems to categorised with is vast.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 30, 2009)

FeralKenpo said:


> So Kyokushin karateka allow themselves to be struck so that they can set up a harder strike? Interesting o_0


I'm sure opinions on this subject conflict. Kajukenbo guys will beat on eachother before competition to get the blood flowing, but they don't exactly plan to walk into punches on the street. I assume they kyokushin guys are more defensive fighters in that they counter attacks rather than relying on being first. 
Sean


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## dancingalone (Jun 30, 2009)

Hyper_Shadow said:


> Would you say that the only purpose of Sanchin is to build bodily resistance? If so I would have to disagree. Based on my experience of kata it was designed for the sole purpose of hiding the execution of deathly attacks to the opponent. All kata was designed for this purpose and this purpose alone. As far as I am led to believe there is no other reason for kata to exist. All karate can be found in kata.



Not sure how you came to the conclusion that I said that was the sole purpose for sanchin kata.  Obviously there are other reasons to train it:  physical exercise, mental & spiritual testing, a few bunkai applications, tradition, etc.


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## Hyper_Shadow (Jul 1, 2009)

Sorry, mate, my misinterpretation, do apologise. I have a tendancy to let my fingers start typing before my brain engages sometimes.

 The point I was trying to make is that even though people may train kata with various goals in mind (spiritual growth, exercise, practicing basics etc.), the fact remains that kata was intended for hiding techniques which would in turn criplle, kill or otherwise incapacitate an opponent.

 My apologies again for general ignorance.


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## Martin h (Jul 18, 2009)

Touch Of Death said:


> I'm sure opinions on this subject conflict. Kajukenbo guys will beat on eachother before competition to get the blood flowing, but they don't exactly plan to walk into punches on the street. I assume they kyokushin guys are more defensive fighters in that they counter attacks rather than relying on being first.
> Sean



Actually, kyokushin tend to be very aggressive.
In defense there is a lot of angling the body to cause glancing blows with reduced impact, and lightly tapping attack off aim to "less sensitive targets". Defensive footwork tend to be primarily used at longer and middle ranges. Once in close it tends to get down to pure slugging it out with rapid power punch combinations and knees to see who folds first. Kyokushin require a lot of conditioning to blows. 
Kyokushin guys seldom moves straight backwards. If the step back they do it at an angle.
Some offshots like Ashihara and enshin preaches more circular footwork even for closer ranges, but in competition there is little difference. They also allows more grabbing and throwing, which is not allowed in kyokushin competitions -which makes circular movement at close ranges easier and more effective.

Offensively, you aim for week points (solar plexus, floating ribs, the liver and so on). You lowkick the opponents legs to slow him down (and maybe even lowkick KO him) and his shoulders/biceps to slow down his arms, and slowly draw his guard down to cover his body by inflicting pain to chest and ribs, then knock him out with a quick highkick or knee once he no longer guards his head effectively.

It is basically a pure competition tactic adapted to the rules, and not a good idea in selfdefense, when slowly wearing the opponent down is not smart


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