# Pens as Weapons.



## elder999

Right from the top, I'm going to say that this isn't an advertisement-don't ask me to make you anything, because I have a job-maybe after I'm retired, but these are prototypes, and I'm just looking for feedback.

I've posted about it before-how, some 31 years ago, now, I was mugged on the Brooklyn subway late at night, and had to respond to a knife threat with deadly force, and how I stabbed a kid with my Mont Blanc ballpoint. Those are the bare bones, but, just for background, there was an earlier incident, where I wasn't involved-I was a witness. I was 11 years old, middle school had just started, and I saw my sometime/once upon a time babysitter, my friend Michael's sister, Marie (with whom I'm still friends) take out a Bic pen, one of these:




Which they actually shot through blocks of wood and wrote with afterward, back in 60's commercials, and which I don't think they make anymore. 

Anyway, Marie took one of those out of her pocket, and stabbed a boy with it-a coupla times. I was impressed-I'd expected it to break, and it did, but not before she'd caused a fair amount of pain. I filed it away, and always looked to using a pen as a weapon over the years, as I continued my martial arts training-begun that very year on my birthday. 

Thus it was that I was _prepared_ on the subway that night-where I couldn't carry a knife or gun _legally_-and had stashed my pen inside my sleeve, ready to deploy, as soon as I saw those boys come onto the platform. I let them have my fake-out wallet with $20 in it, and my not at all fake watch, but one of them was there for my blood, which I wasn't going to let them have. 

Things I learned that night, besides not being on the Brooklyn IRT alone at 1 A.M., looking half-drunk in a suit with a fancy watch? 

Blood is slippery at first-made that pen a hard thing to hold onto. One of the things that sticks in my from then-even now-is making a conscious effort to hold onto the thing when both it and my hand had a fair amount of blood on them.

Oh, and that a Mont Blanc pen is one helluva expensive thing to wind up using as a weapon, and parting with. I didn't pay $1,000 for mine, but it may as well have been, and it was hard to part with-I _liked_ that pen.

Of course, now, things have caught up with me, and we have the "tactical pen," a variety of products that can double as a weapon-either a yawara stick, stabbing, or, in some cases, as a fist-load-and as a utility tool, like a window breaker-as well as a writing instrument, yet pass muster in a world where we're increasingly searched for weapons and disarmed in environments where some of us would rather be armed, like on an airplane. 

In fact, I posted here about taking my UZI tactical pen to Las Vegas, (which is the only one I'd really recommend buying-it's adequate for what its intent is, uses Parker pen refills, and doesn't cost much, so you won't mind losing it) and not getting a second glance from the TSA-which is kind of a surprise, since everywhere I go, people see the tip of it sticking out of my shirt pocket and get all, _Ooooh, what's that? Can I see? I know what that is,ooooh!_

I mean, the damn thing just looks so......_tactical._ It's a wonder it hasn't gotten me thrown in jail. :lol:

With that in mind, I set off to the shop to try and make some pens that could be used as weapons, but would approach the beauty, practicality and innocuous nature of the Mont Blanc. Using various materials, I've machined a few pens into shapes that I hoped would allow a good grip for a force multiplier, even when a bit of blood flowed, and be a bit more camouflaged for every day carrying. I've tested the grip of them, by dipping my hand and/or the pen in oil, and their shapes seem to work-the next step will be machining some in metal, like titanium or aluminium, as most of them don't really approach the right heft for a fist-load. They do work well for stabbing and as yawara sticks, though.

This one is my favorite, in terms of weapon readiness, and I'll probably be turning titanium into something like it:
View attachment $Picture 015.jpg
it, and it's mechanical pencil mate, are turned from maple.The furniture is store bought, and, in this case, titanium.....

Here it is with some others. The dark brown slender set is teak, and the fountain pen, on the end, is made of a special plastic that's actually impregnated with titanium to give it that coloring:

View attachment $Picture 016.jpg

I like the fountain pen-I like fountain pens-but as a ready to deploy weapon, it loses something to the others, in that the cap has to be removed. Of course, a fountain nib is a much sharper and more blade-like tip than a ballpoint, but it's also more fragile.....

They all stab pretty well, though-I used them for insertion points for garlic cloves on a shoulder I smoked:
View attachment $Copy of Picture 018.jpg
Oh, the shoulder came out fine!
View attachment $Picture 019.jpg
:lfao:

So, what do you all think? I'd be open to a discussion on pen techniques I've developed, but I think that they're fairly mostly obvious-and pens are somewhat less versatile than other weapons-their real advantage lays in their everyday, innocuous nature....


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## seasoned

Formative, and most forgotten instrument, of writing. I carry a few of them in my jobs, but will look for at least one that can be used for that one signature move. 

I think soft tissue areas like the neck and face would be ideal. I like, and have always taught, that a weapon does not have to look like, or appear to be a weapon. 

A knife or gun if dropped in the heat of the moment, could be used against you, but a pen if dropped..................


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## Cyriacus

I consider Pens to be an amazing way to start a defensive sequence. LIke, stab with pen > punch > punch > punch. It could also be amazing for breaking a grab. Person grabs lapel > Stab their wrist > punch > punch > punch. Or something.
I know im simplifying a bit, but what im getting at is that it could be a good way to start. I wouldnt call it the best way to finish. And most importantly, You can legally carry them.


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## Grenadier

I have one of the Smith and Wesson pens that was given to me as a gift, and this unit is also cheap to own, since the ink refill units can be obtained at any Staples, Office Depot, etc.  It writes very smoothly, and looks innocuous enough.  Right now, you can find them for well under 30 bucks:

http://www.amazon.com/Smith-Wesson-SWPENBK-Tactical-Black/dp/B0026W4ZW4

Whenever the folks at the airport look through my briefcase, they're more curious about my green laser pointer (5 mW, Class IIIa), since it's finely tuned to give off the brightest possible light at a 5 mW rating.  

I agree, that basically, soft tissues are the main target, since hitting a hard target would result in the pen bouncing off.


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## Grenadier

On another note, it's good to see you didn't let that tasty-looking, nicely marbled beef roast go to waste!


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## punisher73

On my flight to Hawaii, I took a cross ink pen with me since my other goodies were checked in lugguage.  I tried to go with a pen that didn't look like I was trying to take a pen as a weapon just to avoid TSA cavity searches. LOL

The cross pen I had was a gift, and I think is only around $20.  It had a very sturdy metal casing and a fairly sharp ink tip as well to aid in puncture.


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## MA-Caver

If I don't have my knife then my go to is a pen. 

Honestly if I had gotten to where I would use a pen in a fight... I'm not going to care if it writes afterwards or not. 

Lots of good vulnerable soft spots on the human body where a pen would have no trouble entering if enough force is applied. The ones pictured are pretty, but I don't think I've ever had owned a pen long enough to make it worth the money to buy one. But that's just me... chronically poor. 

As they say, the pen (can be) mightier than the sword... sorry Sukerkin, but even you must admit that it's true.


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## malteaser14

Fairplay, before reading this I would never have considered using a pen as a weapon... Yet neither have I considered carrying a weapon!


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## Empty Hands

Very nice work.  If you are worried about grip, rubber grips are very common and innocuous on many of today's pens.  You could consider using one of those.


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## Xue Sheng




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## Rich Parsons

Elder,

I have also used pens, cheap ones to defend myself. They do break. They do cause lots of pain. They are an improvised weapon. 

I like your initial designs, and I like the idea a lot. Those being sold today look tactical and do not pass the laugh test of coudl it be a weapon. 

I like stealth. I think it is a good idea. 

If you need a beta tester, let me know.


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## aedrasteia

elder999 said:


> So, what do you all think? I'd be open to a discussion on pen techniques I've developed, but I think that they're fairly mostly obvious-and pens are somewhat less versatile than other weapons-their real advantage lays in their everyday, innocuous nature....




I think i never thought about a "tactical" pen - that is amazing!!  i'm going to get this - 
and it writes and is refillable too~!

I think this is a pork roast. I think I'm going to get a pen, clean it and stab the PORK Roast!!!
and then fill the stabby places with garlic and herbs, rub with S & P and cook it and serve it while 
I show off my stabby pen!

too cool.


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## WC_lun

Years ago a sifu of mine trained me a bit with what he called a three hand stick.  While it was longer than a pen, most of the weapons techniques can be substitued for use by a pen.  I've tested some of them out over the years and pens make great bars for painful chin na.  Of course, the stabbing thing works great too 

I like the teak ones you made.  The others are good too, but there is something about teak made items that I really enjoy the look.  Also really like the look of that beef


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## elder999

WC_lun said:


> . Also really like the look of that beef



'twere a pork shoulder-actually from the feral hog I took back in January with my crossbow.....smoked it, we did.quite tasty.:lol:


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## dancingalone

I've related this story before... but a female student of mine drove off a predator with her disposable pen (a Bic or Papermate).  She punched him in the face with the point and penetrated all the way through his cheeks and fractured his cheek bones.  He was lucky she didn't blind him.  (I don't have any sympathy for him - he's in jail right now for another offense.)

Pens are awesome, and they're readily available in campus environments where unfortunately assaults happen all too frequently.


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## Jenna

Pens-as-weapons reminds me of that scene from the film Casino, Joe Pesci character uses the pen in a mad frenzy.. I would post video only yikes it is gruesome.. 

You would have a market here in UK as legal carry here is like tiny blade and nobody can suggest aforethought with a pen as a defence.. or maybe if it is a pen proven to be designed for a _specific _purpose then that affects its legality??  I do not know.

These look lovely. If they _were _for sale there would be a rough price??


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## jks9199

All that about pens, just to justify posting up your smoked shoulder?  Y'know, we do allow recipe & food posts in the proper sections, don't you?  

Nice work on the pens.  I especially like the middle, teak set; the maple set looks a little big & bulky to me.


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## mmartist

In a pinch a pen will do one hell of a job for self defense. And sometimes people will underestimate it.


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## rlobrecht

Jenna said:


> nobody can suggest aforethought with a pen as a defence.. or maybe if it is a pen proven to be designed for a _specific _purpose then that affects its legality??  I do not know.



I was wondering the same thing. Would a jury decide that your tactical pen made your self defense into something premeditated?


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## David43515

Beautiful, beautiful work Elder. If you ever do decide to start selling either the wooden ones or the all titanium ones I'd say there's a market for them. You might consider doing some test marketing on-line or getting a table at a big gunshow and seeing how they sell. Put a video with a five minute loop of you stabbing them into different test materials on your table and you'd make several good sales. Or you might be able to get a third party to market them for you so you don't have to mess with the sales yourself. We did that a lot with our custom knife business.


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## Master Dan

I love the pens but in practice and actual experience I prefer the above key chain is much better for control to the Pericardium and other key point including raking the eyes much better support for strait in striking. Being a Meat Chef when I say the beautiful piece of Beef  being stabbed with the pens I could only foster up a vision of a scene from Oh Brother Where Art Thou ( Oh George not the live stock) when he was shoot cows with a Thompson Sub machine gune


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## Empty Hands

Master Dan said:


> I love the pens but in practice and actual experience I prefer the above key chain is much better for control to the Pericardium...



If you have any sort of control of the pericardium, you are likely wrangling a corpse, not an assailant.


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## Instructor

Just wanted to say nice all around thread here, it really gets me thinking.


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## Brian R. VanCise

*Pens are a great tool* that just slides by without anyone thinking twice about them and you can take them anywhere.  Truthfully you do not need a high end tactical pen because just a solid one will do the job.  Parker Jotter, Fisher Space Pens, even cheaper ones, etc.  Plus they do not get the scrutiny that a tactical one will.  Still the tactical pens are nice and have their place!  What is great about having a good pen is that not only can you write with it but you can also in a pinch utilize it as a tool for personal protection.  However, what is really great is their ability to go unnoticed.  By police, TSA, criminals, etc.  They can give you that element of surprise that can be so crucial in a self defense situation!


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## chinto

a pen is a good weapon for emergency use in places where you would NOT be allowed any weapon. court houses, and government buildings and on say airplanes... other things can be improvised as well as defense or weapon in an emergency!   Remember  THE ONLY DEADLY WEAPON KNOWN TO MAN IS BETWEEN YOUR EARS... BUT ONLY IF ITS LOADED!


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## Tez3

Just as an aside, does anyone still use a fountain pen for writing ( as opposed to fighting with lol) I love writing with them so use mine quite a bit.


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## Rich Parsons

Tez3 said:


> Just as an aside, does anyone still use a fountain pen for writing ( as opposed to fighting with lol) I love writing with them so use mine quite a bit.



Yes, I write with any form of pen I can get my hands on. ;~)


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## elder999

Tez3 said:


> Just as an aside, does anyone still use a fountain pen for writing ( as opposed to fighting with lol) I love writing with them so use mine quite a bit.


Well, I do-quite a bit, actually.


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## chinto

Tez3 said:


> Just as an aside, does anyone still use a fountain pen for writing ( as opposed to fighting with lol) I love writing with them so use mine quite a bit.


yes I do. you can get nice ones for a reasonable price at  www.Xfountianpens.com ..

I love how smooth and easy they write!! if you have never used one, get one and try it! you will love it!


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## Brian R. VanCise

Tez3 said:


> Just as an aside, does anyone still use a fountain pen for writing ( as opposed to fighting with lol) I love writing with them so use mine quite a bit.



I still find that writing with a pen is still it's top function Tez3!


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## Skpotamus

I've seen tactical pens stopped at airports and the local courthouse.  Ditto for my kubotan.  A regualr zebra steel pen (http://www.zebrapen.com/products/steel) gets through everytime though.  As do the Fisher Space Pens.  http://www.spacepen.com/ 

They do have some decent utility as stabbing tools.  Michael Janichs book Contemporary Knife Targeting has a picture in it of a victim of a pen stabbing incident.  Quite gruesome.


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## Xue Sheng




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## elder999

Skpotamus said:


> I've seen tactical pens stopped at airports and the local courthouse. Ditto for my kubotan. A regualr zebra steel pen (http://www.zebrapen.com/products/steel) gets through everytime though. As do the Fisher Space Pens. http://www.spacepen.com/



Part of my intent is to make something innocuous appearing, but that isn't going to be as slippery as the Fisher Space pen would be with some blood and sweat on it-it's one of the products I tested before starting....
z





Xue Sheng said:


>



:lol:


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## Skpotamus

elder999 said:


> Part of my intent is to make something innocuous appearing, but that isn't going to be as slippery as the Fisher Space pen would be with some blood and sweat on it-it's one of the products I tested before starting....




Interesting.  When I was playing with my fisher space pen I didn't have a problem with it slipping while I was stabbing.  I took my grip, poured olive oil onto my hand, then went to town on a roast I had.  No problems with it slipping at all during multiple stabbings (12+).  Maybe it had something to do with me pouring the oil on while I already had the pen in my grip instead of dipping it first or with my grip itself?  I use a capped thumb grip with my reverse grip knife/pen work.  YMMV.  

I do really like the pens you've made, especailly the first one you posted.  


The .22 is pretty neat as well )


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## Stickgrappler

Skpotamus said:


> I've seen tactical pens stopped at airports and the local courthouse. Ditto for my kubotan. A regualr zebra steel pen (http://www.zebrapen.com/products/steel) gets through everytime though. As do the Fisher Space Pens. http://www.spacepen.com/



I've posted this story elsewhere. I had jury duty earlier this year. I have a kubotan keychain and thought nothing of it. First day, I get by the Court Officers. 

2nd day, the Officer picked it up out of the bin where i put my watch and coins into. He asked me if I knew what it was. I said "It's a keychain. I got it as a gift." He turns to his supervisor and asked him if he should let it go. I forget now, either the Officer or the supervisor says "He must know how to use it." 

They locked it up and made me sign for it.

On the first day, I got there early and had to stand on line waiting to go inside. The Court Officer at the door walked away towards the back of the line and told the middle-aged woman who had a cane that she can proceed to go in.


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## Bill Mattocks

I won't pretend to be any kind of expert on weapon-fighting, but I've given the idea of a pen as a weapon a lot of thought over the years.  So a couple comments.  Jeff, I know that you are more than well-aware of most or all of this.

One of the things they taught us in the Marines was to make use of expedient weapons - in other words, chairs, shovels, helmets, etc.  A pen is an expedient weapon.  It is not designed to be a weapon, so by nature, it is always a compromise. 

Expedient weapons are not traditionally (except in the military) seen as fight-enders.  They are intended to provide initial self-defense, create space, and allow one to either LEAVE or go to a more lethal weapon if required.  Not to say you can't kill with a pen; but that really that is not its forte.  I would not feel empowered to remain and fight on when I could escape because I had my 'combat pen' with me.

The way to proficiency with expedient weapons is the same as with purpose-made weapons.  Practice.  I know quite a few people who 'know' how to use a Kubaton, but they don't.  They had some training on it, once or twice, and now they carry it.  Use it?  Theoretically, I suppose.  Might work.  Might not.

In my experience, purpose-built weapons that are supposed to resemble other things are seldom as easily-missed as the owners hope.  Pens built by self-defense companies are for self-defense, not writing, and most law enforcement and professional security people know it.  More importantly; prosecuting attorneys know it.  If prosecuted or sued, you can be certain that your 'pen' will be seen by the opposition as a purpose-built weapon, the same as if you carried a knife or a firearm.  You're not fooling anyone at that point.  A pen that is a commercial item and sold as a pen and nothing else will simply not be subject to the same level of scrutiny.

Obviously, a dual-purpose 'pen' that is built to be a self-defense weapon is going to be better as a weapon in most cases than a generic pen with no inbuilt self-defense design.  That is a trade-off that one must consider when making up one's mind about what to carry.

As to the pen itself, I would consider these things...

It must be rigid enough to penetrate without breaking for a period of time.
It must have a friction-grip that resists slippage.
It must be instantly deployable; no cap to remove, no buttons to press.
It must not leak ink in my pants pocket.  

How is it going to be used?  I can think of three ways.  As a push dagger (extending between the fingers, back to the palm at the wrist), as a stabbing weapon extending from the top (thumb side) of the fist, and as a stabbing weapon extending from the bottom of the fist.

If I had to guess, I would think that using the pen as a stabbing weapon extending from the bottom of the fist might work best, although it seems somewhat counter-intuitive.  One has to use one's fists as if delivering a hammer fist (tetsui).  But this has some advantages.  First, one might be able to use the thumb to keep the pen from slipping through the hand when making a thrust, and second, it is after all a tetsui, capable by itself of doing damage.  It has the additional advantage of being a bit more able to deliver as an upward or downward blow to the soft tissue of the face; holding it the other way pretty much limits you to uppercut-type strikes to the facial area.

So, if I were going to be carrying a pen as a self-defense weapon, I would look at the available common and commercial pens; not those made by self-defense companies under the rubric of 'pen'.  I would practice with it as intensively as I do my bag work or basic exercises in and out of the dojo.

Oh, and you can practice safely with a stabbing weapon such as a pen.  A short length of garden hose works well with an uke who is wearing some padding.  If you don't mind getting dirty, a little wet paint on the end will show where your hits are on him or her.  Remember of course that he or she has to defend to the best of their ability, and if they stop you, they stop you; consider abandoning that tactic.


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## Christian Soldier

There are a *lot* varites of tactical pens in today's market and pretty much all of them are reasonably priced so you can get whatever you want. They are legal everywhere AFAIK and will make your empty hand techniques much more effective. I think I'd prefer to mod the techniqes I have, than make up new ones, but it's certainately a formidable weapon that is quite practical. It's unfortunate there are so many weapons laws preventing the common man from carrying regularly, but I don't think that's going to change any time soon, so for this day and age, a Tac pen is a great choice for SD.


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## Bill Mattocks

Christian Soldier said:


> There are a *lot* varites of tactical pens in today's market and pretty much all of them are reasonably priced so you can get whatever you want. They are legal everywhere AFAIK and will make your empty hand techniques much more effective. I think I'd prefer to mod the techniqes I have, than make up new ones, but it's certainately a formidable weapon that is quite practical. It's unfortunate there are so many weapons laws preventing the common man from carrying regularly, but I don't think that's going to change any time soon, so for this day and age, a Tac pen is a great choice for SD.



Legal does not mean you'll be allowed to keep it with you.  For example, on a plane.

Also, as I mentioned, a 'tactical pen' is going to be treated exactly like a weapon if you find yourself in court for having had recourse to use it.  "It's legal" doesn't cut any mustard with prosecuting attorneys.


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## elder999

Christian Soldier said:


> There are a *lot* varites of tactical pens in today's market and pretty much all of them are reasonably priced so you can get whatever you want. .




Not all "reasonably priced" at all. This one wasn't even the most expensive.


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## elder999

Skpotamus said:


> The .22 is pretty neat as well )



I made something like that, once. Wouldn't want to have to depend upon it, or even _fire_ it.

Of course, it's also pretty much totally illegal for the purposes of this post........


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## Christian Soldier

elder999 said:


> Not all "reasonably priced" at all. This one wasn't even the most expensive.



That's insane. That pen better be made out of adamantium for that price. 

Here's more of my frame of reference. There are lots of choices here for about $20 for well made Tac pens from well known distributers. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=tactical+pens


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## Flea

There's another benefit to using a pen as a weapon. Its a handy way to mark a suspect for identification later.


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## chinto

Xue Sheng said:


>




in my state a zip pen like that is a one way ride to prison. they get very very nasty about it... also if no serial number i think ATF and the feds will be very unfriendly about it too!


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## chinto

a walking stick is a better weapon.. but any good steel pen would work. lets face it people, if you need it it will be in a hurry and the first or second thrust or stab will get it done or you will need to go on to something else  9 out of 10 times!


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## elder999

chinto said:


> a walking stick is a better weapon.. but any good steel pen would work. lets face it people, if you need it it will be in a hurry and the first or second thrust or stab will get it done or you will need to go on to something else 9 out of 10 times!




Funny enough, I'm not sure how many times I stabbed that dude-I'm _pretty_ sure it was 6, but it might have been a few more. All I know for sure is that the first two got in, and I looked at his friends and they _ran_ while I was giving him the third one. After that, Ir eally think I was holding him up-I know I broke his collarbone: he dropped his knife-and that's when I dropped him.

I didn't need to go on to anything else-I probably could have stopped after the first or second stab, but he was actually still trying to cut me by turning the knife-at least, that's the way it felt.

You need something that will get the job done...you can't really know what that is.....


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## Xue Sheng

chinto said:


> in my state a zip pen like that is a one way ride to prison. they get very very nasty about it... also if no serial number i think ATF and the feds will be very unfriendly about it too!



You are of course assuming I was serious.... and I wasn't.

Try taking one out in NYS and see what that gets you.


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## Zenjael

I used to carry a knife, but realized that all it tends to do is escalate... if you let them see it.

I recall learning a long time ago that 'shaolin monks' learned to have a mindset that anything that came to their hand, would be a weapon. I try to follow the same, to the point of having led practices where we'll roll up magazines to use as batons, where we've taken pennies and learned how to apply them to pressure points.

I occasionally fly, and use the metro system, as most people do. And when I do, while I don't carry a knife, I will not get on a plane without a sharpened pencil, and a pen.

The nice thing about them is they dont have to be lethal, they work just as well as any koga baton if you reverse the point it effectively becomes the pommel of a knife, which is a much less... lethal approach to dealing with uppity folks.

I've found that ball point pens are the most durable. I think it has to do with how they are mold in the factory, and instead of it being of the plastic being formed in a horizontal way, it's vertical, so the stresses are easier dispersed in the weapon. Lord knows if you use a multi jointed pen (or multipart) you hit something with it enough, the whole thing will just disintigrate in one's hands. 

I stick with ball point- they're sharper, and more useful for a tearing cut, which with a pen is a lot less... ah, lethal again. I prefer to maim, or mark, before taking, if you know what I mean.

It's just, ever since 911, even if I was in the 6th grade then, I've had the mentality that if I'm on a plane and that goes down, at least someone there has something to stick into those assailants, and the willingness, and knowledge of how to.

Remember, they are more like the pick of a sai than anything else. Just a lot sharper.

If I weren't going for light cuts, I'd be going for gouges at the tender vitals; inner clavicle, under-jaw, temple, etc. Pen's require precision, which is a bit different than I think knives allow, which can be to go willy-nilly.

The teacher who taught me how to really use a knife always cautioned it was the most dangerous weapon; anyone can pick it up, and you don't even have to aim it to do real damage either. We treat knives with even more severity than guns- they are vastly more applicable, utilizable, and easy to fashion and come across.

I'd actually say if it came down to someone pulling a knife on you, and you've got the choice between your pen, or car keys, I'd go for the latter.

I've modded my keys so that they're maximized as weapons; can be used in the same manner as a nunchuk- the steel zip-line can punch holes in cardboard and a wooden fence, and it can be easily weilded as a knife, or set of steel knuckles.

Keys are much more versatile, especially when sharpened. I'm happy to post a video- I'm actually trying to get more people to weaponize their keys in the sake of self-defense, tho my apologies if I've gone off a tangent.


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## oaktree

Hi Zenjael,


> where we've taken pennies and learned how to apply them to pressure points.


 A penny is a rather dull object and most likely will not inflict enough damage to stop an aggressive attack.
If you want to hit pressure points a sharp object would work better, this is why Acpuncturist use needles.


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## Xue Sheng




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## DennisBreene

I typically carry a tactical pen (Uzi or Smith and Wesson) and a kubotan key chain. I have yet to have either challenged at an airport. When laypeople comment on my unusual pen, I simply remark that my hand writing is terrible (it is) and the larger diameter seems to help me write more legibly. I never refer to the tactical nature of either item. It would be nice to have a pen with the heft and strength or your prototypes as they appear quite benign. If you get them to the production phase, sign me up. As for prosecutors. If I'm attacked with a weapon, I want something to possibly equalize the situation. I have no intentions of using either devise against an unarmed attack. If a prosecutor wants to charge me with intent they can do it as well for wearing a belt. I'd prefer to defend myself in court than be maimed or killed.
Dennis


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## grumpywolfman

Xue Sheng,

Is that Sir Author on the left?


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## Aiki Lee




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## geezer

DennisBreene said:


> I typically carry a tactical pen (Uzi or Smith and Wesson) and a kubotan key chain ...If a prosecutor wants to charge me with intent *they can do it as well for wearing a belt*. I'd prefer to defend myself in court than be maimed or killed.  Dennis



Actually, a prosecutor would have a much tougher time proving "intent" for "wearing a belt", ...an _ordinary_ belt, anyway. If you want to carry _tactical_ pens, IMO you might as well just carry a weapon. As Bill said, if you ever have to use one to defend yourself, it will be looked at closely. Legal or not, it will be noticed by police and prosecutors, and the fact that the object was manufactured and sold as a weapon, more specifically as a _disguised_ weapon will likely complicate your defense. 

An important point about improvised weapons is not just that they go unnoticed, but that they are ordinary, practical objects that don't scream "weapon" when you look at them closely, even after they are used in self defense. Rather, they are objects that any reasonable individual in similar circumstances might carry on his person or have in his immediate environment. I thought Bill made this abundantly clear.


----------



## bluewaveschool

So I'm scrolling on down the list of threads with new posts, and swear to god I read the title as 'Penis as weapons.'


----------



## elder999

bluewaveschool said:


> So I'm scrolling on down the list of threads with new posts, and swear to god I read the title as 'Penis as weapons.'



Aaah.......a _"weapon of mass *seduction*_" :lfao:


----------



## DennisBreene

I actually agree with you. The belt statement is meant to be a little bit of hyperbole. I'm sure that any such use of these devices will bear scrutiny and the laws of the jurisdiction and the attitude of the prosecutor will have ultimate bearing on how the use of these weapons is handled.  Some few states allow gun carry under various circumstanses but I personally don't find that to be realistic or desirable. The same with knives. Given the low probablity that any of us is likely to be attacked with a weapon, I truly question the need of something with obvious tactical atributes.  The law abiding citizen is at a legal disadvantage if one chooses to carry a weapon (or close facsimile). Obviously the criminal who elects to use a weapon in the commission of a crime has already crossed the legal line and is not concerned with the various issues of criminal intent and tort law. Selecting everyday objects that will be of aid leaves you with fewer choices (I've personally never tested a Mont Blanc or Cross pen against  an UZI pen). I guess a reasonable person is not expected to have to defend themselves. And that legally it's a given that having a device that is  slightly more effective against a true weapon is an unreasonable precaution on the part of someone who assesses the risk of attack  and concludes that being "lightly" armed is a prudent precaution.  QUOTE=geezer;1508183]Actually, a prosecutor would have a much tougher time proving "intent" for "wearing a belt", ...an _ordinary_ belt, anyway. If you want to carry _tactical_ pens, IMO you might as well just carry a weapon. As Bill said, if you ever have to use one to defend yourself, it will be looked at closely. Legal or not, it will be noticed by police and prosecutors, and the fact that the object was manufactured and sold as a weapon, more specifically as a _disguised_ weapon will likely complicate your defense. 

An important point about improvised weapons is not just that they go unnoticed, but that they are ordinary, practical objects that don't scream "weapon" when you look at them closely, even after they are used in self defense. Rather, they are objects that any reasonable individual in similar circumstances might carry on his person or have in his immediate environment. I thought Bill made this abundantly clear.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Xue Sheng

grumpywolfman said:


> Xue Sheng,
> 
> Is that Sir Author on the left?



Yes, yes it is


----------



## Rich Parsons

elder999 said:


> Aaah.......a _"weapon of mass *seduction*_" :lfao:



" Weapon of *** seduction" ? :lfao:


----------



## Bill Mattocks

elder999 said:


> Aaah.......a _"weapon of mass *seduction*_" :lfao:



Assault with a dead weapon.


----------



## rickster

Pens stuck in meat is by no comparison when having to penetrate skin, fat, and bone.

That said, these can be a good "distraction for flee"

From the aspect of a "defense pen", it has to be a writing instrument at first hand, or it will be a illegal weapon.


----------



## elder999

rickster said:


> Pens stuck in meat is by no comparison when having to penetrate skin, fat, and bone.



Or clothes, for that matter. It wasn't even really meant to show "penetration," more_ capability _of penetration.

We were going to eat that shoulder-which actually has a fair bit of fat, and a large bone-after all. :lol:

Some targets on the human body for such a weapon-lethal and non lethal-have very little in the way of protection, of course-such as my own experience with the subclavian artery.



rickster said:


> That said, these can be a good "distraction for flee"



Or incapacitate. Or kill. 




rickster said:


> From the aspect of a "defense pen", it has to be a writing instrument at first hand, or it will be a illegal weapon.



Well, that's kind of the point-though you're mostly wrong: it becomes an illegal weapon when it's used _illegally._ If used in self-defense, it's not an illegal weapon, unless otherwise covered by law, like a firearm or knife-this depends on jurisdiction, like I posted in the "carrying a knife thread," about the nurse in NY who was charged with carrying a concealed weapon for stabbing her assailant with scissors in her purse.

In any case, my pens are going to be _pens_ first, just as my Mont Blanc was-and really just convenient objects, more than weapons. 

I mean, just about everyone I know leaves the house with a pen every day, and no intention whatsoever of using it to stab someone.  :lfao:

(I mean, I leave the house carrying a knife every day, and I only _think_ about using it to stab someone or slit a throat once or twice a week....:lfao: )


----------



## jks9199

elder999 said:


> I mean, just about everyone I know leaves the house with a pen every day, and no intention whatsoever of using it to stab someone.  :lfao:
> 
> (I mean, I leave the house carrying a knife every day, and I only _think_ about using it to stab someone or slit a throat once or twice a week....:lfao: )



Gee, I would have thought you planned on skewering someone with your pen almost daily...  At least as a medium for your wit!  

(And you must live in a much more friendly place than I do; I at least contemplate stabbing someone or slitting a throat, or otherwise visiting extreme violence on someone a probably average of several times a day... and that's just in traffic!)


----------



## DennisBreene

With apologies,
My previous entry did not properly delineate the guote by geezer. I think it left the entire discussion a little disjointed and hopefully the multiquotes will work and serve to clarify things. As a final note; I think the input from multiple participants has served to underscore how difficult it can be to understand and anticipate the legal implications of application of force for self defense. I strongly encourage discussion with students about the legal and ethical issues of minimum force as well as discussion of ensuring adequate force to protect yourself. I don't think the goal is ever to provide a template that will cover all conceivable situations.  Hopefully it will serve to encourage students and senior practitioners to think about the issue and begin to formulate personal guidelines as they learn to master some very dangerous skills.


DennisBreene said:


> I actually agree with you. The belt statement is meant to be a little bit of hyperbole. I'm sure that any such use of these devices will bear scrutiny and the laws of the jurisdiction and the attitude of the prosecutor will have ultimate bearing on how the use of these weapons is handled.  Some few states allow gun carry under various circumstanses but I personally don't find that to be realistic or desirable. The same with knives. Given the low probablity that any of us is likely to be attacked with a weapon, I truly question the need of something with obvious tactical atributes.  The law abiding citizen is at a legal disadvantage if one chooses to carry a weapon (or close facsimile). Obviously the criminal who elects to use a weapon in the commission of a crime has already crossed the legal line and is not concerned with the various issues of criminal intent and tort law. Selecting everyday objects that will be of aid leaves you with fewer choices (I've personally never tested a Mont Blanc or Cross pen against  an UZI pen). I guess a reasonable person is not expected to have to defend themselves. And that legally it's a given that having a device that is  slightly more effective against a true weapon is an unreasonable precaution on the part of someone who assesses the risk of attack  and concludes that being "lightly" armed is a prudent precaution.





geezer said:


> Actually, a prosecutor would have a much tougher time proving "intent" for "wearing a belt", ...an _ordinary_ belt, anyway. If you want to carry _tactical_ pens, IMO you might as well just carry a weapon. As Bill said, if you ever have to use one to defend yourself, it will be looked at closely. Legal or not, it will be noticed by police and prosecutors, and the fact that the object was manufactured and sold as a weapon, more specifically as a _disguised_ weapon will likely complicate your defense.
> 
> An important point about improvised weapons is not just that they go unnoticed, but that they are ordinary, practical objects that don't scream "weapon" when you look at them closely, even after they are used in self defense. Rather, they are objects that any reasonable individual in similar circumstances might carry on his person or have in his immediate environment. I thought Bill made this abundantly clear.


----------



## Carol

bluewaveschool said:


> So I'm scrolling on down the list of threads with new posts, and swear to god I read the title as 'Penis as weapons.'



:lol:  I'm sure the folks at penis land...er...pen island understand 

(link is work safe)

http://www.penisland.net/ 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## monk64

I had never heard of a "Tactical Pen" until this thread.  It looks like everyone under the sun makes them - UZI and S&W as mentioned, and I find Colt, Remington, etc.  Shrade even makes tactical fountain pens.

Now I have a sneaking desire to own one.

I can't seem to find any Tactical Highlighters, though.


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## DennisBreene

Now that you mention it; there is a whole untapped market for Tactical dry erase markers, crayons, air brushes.  The possibilities are endless.


monk64 said:


> I had never heard of a "Tactical Pen" until this thread.  It looks like everyone under the sun makes them - UZI and S&W as mentioned, and I find Colt, Remington, etc.  Shrade even makes tactical fountain pens.
> 
> Now I have a sneaking desire to own one.
> 
> I can't seem to find any Tactical Highlighters, though.


----------



## jks9199

monk64 said:


> I had never heard of a "Tactical Pen" until this thread.  It looks like everyone under the sun makes them - UZI and S&W as mentioned, and I find Colt, Remington, etc.  Shrade even makes tactical fountain pens.
> 
> Now I have a sneaking desire to own one.
> 
> I can't seem to find any Tactical Highlighters, though.



There are two secrets to marketing to cops, the military, and many civilians interested in funtional self defense.

1. Paint it black.
2. Label it tactical.

Best of all -- paint it black & label it tactical...


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## Xue Sheng

jks9199 said:


> There are two secrets to marketing to cops, the military, and many civilians interested in funtional self defense.
> 
> 1. Paint it black.
> 2. Label it tactical.
> 
> Best of all -- paint it black & label it tactical...



Don't forget....call it "Combat" anything


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## Carol

That's it then.   I am gonna make black combat-tested tactical pens 

LE/mil 10% discount 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Xue Sheng

Carol said:


> That's it then.   I am gonna make black combat-tested tactical pens
> 
> LE/mil 10% discount
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



I don't know why this made me think of "The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs At Midnight!" (1:49)


----------



## jks9199

Xue Sheng said:


> Don't forget....call it "Combat" anything



Combat is so last year... like camo.  Gotta keep up with the times!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


----------



## rickster

elder999 said:


> Well, that's kind of the point-though you're mostly wrong: it becomes an illegal weapon when it's used _illegally._ If used in self-defense, it's not an illegal weapon, unless otherwise covered by law, like a firearm or knife-this depends on jurisdiction, like I posted in the "carrying a knife thread," about the nurse in NY who was charged with carrying a concealed weapon for stabbing her assailant with scissors in her purse.
> 
> In any case, my pens are going to be _pens_ first, just as my Mont Blanc was-and really just convenient objects, more than weapons.
> 
> I mean, just about everyone I know leaves the house with a pen every day, and no intention whatsoever of using it to stab someone.  :lfao:
> 
> (I mean, I leave the house carrying a knife every day, and I only _think_ about using it to stab someone or slit a throat once or twice a week....:lfao: )



No, I meant if it was designed other than a pen. If it was designed as a stealth weapon disguised as a pen. Like a one shot pen gun, or a blade inside a pen...


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## Xue Sheng

jks9199 said:


> Combat is so last year... like camp.  Gotta keep up with the times!



Damn&#8230;. First Destructo and now you're telling me Combat too&#8230;:disgust: Damn I&#8217;m old


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## geezer

Xue Sheng said:


> Damn. First Destructo and now you're telling me Combat too:disgust: Damn Im old



Me too. Our group trains "PCE" or "Practical _Combat_ Escrima", and worse, I usually work out in camo shorts with cargo pockets. People ask me about choosing the word "Combat" to use in our name. I have to admit that our system is no more or less combative than any other. I just liked the sound, and of course I knew it would attract hundreds of students. Ha! Try a handful ...on a good day.  But, it's too late to change the name now, I guess. 

Anyway, the camo shorts are still good. They may not look stylish anymore, but at least _they hide the drool stains_ when this old geezer nods off in class.


----------



## Xue Sheng

geezer said:


> Me too. Our group trains "PCE" or "Practical _Combat_ Escrima", and worse, I usually work out in camo shorts with cargo pockets. People ask me about choosing the word "Combat" to use in our name. I have to admit that our system is no more or less combative than any other. I just liked the sound, and of course I knew it would attract hundreds of students. Ha! Try a handful ...on a good day.  But, it's too late to change the name now, I guess.
> 
> Anyway, the camo shorts are still good. They may not look stylish anymore, but at least _they hide the drool stains_ when this old geezer nods off in class.



Try PDCE "Practical Destructo _Combat_ Escrima" I am guessing you'll get THOUSANDS of students


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## szorn

Pens are great improvised weapons and potential equalizers if used properly. However, some things to keep in mind. Specially made "tactical" pens while great for police and military, are not necessarily recommend for civilian carry. They can fall under the category of "martial arts" weapons in some states and jurisdictions and can lead to legal ramifications. This is no different that various self-defense keychains available out there. Even if if not illegal, it can still be used against you should you be unfortunate enough to have to use it in self-defense. They can claim that you carried it specifically with the intent of using it on someone. In other words you were looking for trouble.

Some other things to consider- "tactical" pens are generally more expensive than most standard pens, sometimes by as much as 10 times. They are often more aggressive in appearance. Depending on the design they tend to draw attention when out or protruding from a pocket. Depending on the design, some have sharp clips or edges that present potential injury to the user. Would likely be confiscated when entering a plane or in federal buildings. Overall there are many reasons why a "tactical" pen isn't an ideal solution for self-defense carry. 

I personally teach students and clients the use of the Super Sharpie, which is a felt-tip marker available in almost every department, convenience, and office store in the US. These are designed of heavy plastic, rounded on the ends, and are available for less than $2.00 on average, most are less than $1.00. They can take quite a beating and would realistically last a lifetime, minus the ink drying up of course. Not illegal in any state and less likely to be turned on you should you have to use it in self-defense. If the tool is lost during the chaos of an attack, we aren't out anything and it can easily and quickly be replaced.

Just some thoughts.

Steve


----------



## rickster

szorn said:


> Pens are great improvised weapons and potential equalizers if used properly. However, some things to keep in mind. Specially made "tactical" pens while great for police and military, are not necessarily recommend for civilian carry. They can fall under the category of "martial arts" weapons in some states and jurisdictions and can lead to legal ramifications. This is no different that various self-defense keychains available out there. Even if if not illegal, it can still be used against you should you be unfortunate enough to have to use it in self-defense. They can claim that you carried it specifically with the intent of using it on someone. In other words you were looking for trouble.
> 
> Some other things to consider- "tactical" pens are generally more expensive than most standard pens, sometimes by as much as 10 times. They are often more aggressive in appearance. Depending on the design they tend to draw attention when out or protruding from a pocket. Depending on the design, some have sharp clips or edges that present potential injury to the user. Would likely be confiscated when entering a plane or in federal buildings. Overall there are many reasons why a "tactical" pen isn't an ideal solution for self-defense carry.
> 
> I personally teach students and clients the use of the Super Sharpie, which is a felt-tip marker available in almost every department, convenience, and office store in the US. These are designed of heavy plastic, rounded on the ends, and are available for less than $2.00 on average, most are less than $1.00. They can take quite a beating and would realistically last a lifetime, minus the ink drying up of course. Not illegal in any state and less likely to be turned on you should you have to use it in self-defense. If the tool is lost during the chaos of an attack, we aren't out anything and it can easily and quickly be replaced.
> 
> Just some thoughts.
> 
> Steve



Tactical pens are detected via metal detectors and can get one in toruble trying to pass through.

The Sharpie is a hard plastic enough to do certain damage even though of distracion or set-up

Pens with blades, etc., are illegal or are classed under the NFA of AOW


----------



## vincymull

Mightier than the sword...


----------



## donald1

After reading some of the stories I don't know who to be more afraid of...  A person with a sword or some person with a pen.  You see a person with a sword but a person with a pen...  You might not see that coming till its too late...  And that's if you're lucky


----------



## Transk53

donald1 said:


> After reading some of the stories I don't know who to be more afraid of...  A person with a sword or some person with a pen.  You see a person with a sword but a person with a pen...  You might not see that coming till its too late...  And that's if you're lucky



Concur. Heard one or two stories about incidents involving the humble pen. A mate and myself took a _Bic_ once and sharpened the point. Not overly so, but enough to realize that with some skill, it would easily take an eye out permanently.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Tokamura Kensho Sensei has created a kata specifically for a weapon that resembles a pen.  A pen or a pair of pens could easily be substituted.  I have used a pair of scissors to practice the kata.  Works fine.


----------



## Mighty.Panda

I can't be bothered to read all 6 pages so sorry if this point has already been mentioned but if you want to carry a pen for stabbing/striking/wrist-locks/pressure points etc don't get a pen with a clicker on the top. Get one with a lid or one that protrudes the tip by turning. If you ever do have to strike someone with a pen you're probably going to use some variation of a hammerfist and you'll want your thumb on top of the non-stabbing/impacting end. With a clicker pen this doesn't work because in pressing down you're protruding/withdrawing the nib.


----------



## elder999

Mighty.Panda said:


> I can't be bothered to read all 6 pages .



Didja bother reading the _*first *_one?


----------



## Xue Sheng

I know I posted this here before but I just can't resist posting it again..... what the heck, it is necrothreading after all


----------



## Brian King

The movie casino has a great pen scene. Violence warning. You can google casino pen scene and get all kinds of hits. Decent movie great scene. Just in case a person cannot be bothered to google here is one link.  




Regards
Brian King


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## Dirty Dog

I carry one of the so-called "tactical" pens in the ER. It works just fine as a pen, plus it has a penlight in the top. 

At one point, I got one for a female co-worker that worked just fine as a pen, after you twisted it to extend the tip. And if you pressed the clicker, it shot pepper spray.


----------



## jks9199

Dirty Dog said:


> I carry one of the so-called "tactical" pens in the ER. It works just fine as a pen, plus it has a penlight in the top.
> 
> At one point, I got one for a female co-worker that worked just fine as a pen, after you twisted it to extend the tip. And if you pressed the clicker, it shot pepper spray.



And a give away if someone "borrowed" her pen...  They're the ones with the face full of pepper spray!


----------



## Transk53

Was reading through this thread again today and had a thought. A felt tip marker being quite bulky, could marry itself to a Sheffield steel fork. Yeah a random thought, but the more I think about it, still removed from the idea, that would be deadly!!


----------



## chinto

Tez3 said:


> Just as an aside, does anyone still use a fountain pen for writing ( as opposed to fighting with lol) I love writing with them so use mine quite a bit.




yes I love my fountain pen for writing. prefer a ballpoint if I need a weapon!


----------



## cloud dancing

Decade ago.Was getting onto  Greyhound bus.Security guard and I were joking about how he had to search all.everyone for fingernail clippers etc ,small illegal items.But we were laughing about how the simple plastic ballpoint pen is deadliest weapon anyone could carry. Guy was old Korean war vet and could easily see how with a pen= throat -out,ripped open.shoulders -hit into the joints and disable the arm.Break wrist or through inside of elbow. All the laws to protect the riders and the most dangerous weapon = simple pen. Now search for bombs= understand. but of all the so-called illegal items,many  are a JOKE. I try to remember always to carry two pens in shirt pocket. w/o removing the top/can still do devastating damage to anyone slower than I am or equal speed.End game is all about who can move faster.
 Fun part is to remove your pen and loudly demand "What's your name.I am going to write"-stop  AND STRIKE while opponent's brain is engaged with what a big joke you are and how funny you are-"down your name!!" SSun tzu-"the art of war is the art of distraction." Prem Pal Singh Rawat-"anytime someone is distracting you-they are making a fool out of you." I would go for the shouldre joints,or between/down the ribs for max PAIN, as throat strike could kill, easily KILL.
My grip=always same as for knife -point forward held like kitchen knife while cutting a steak.


----------



## Dirty Dog

cloud dancing said:


> Decade ago.Was getting onto  Greyhound bus.Security guard and I were joking about how he had to search all.everyone for fingernail clippers etc ,small illegal items.But we were laughing about how the simple plastic ballpoint pen is deadliest weapon anyone could carry. Guy was old Korean war vet and could easily see how with a pen= throat -out,ripped open.shoulders -hit into the joints and disable the arm.Break wrist or through inside of elbow. All the laws to protect the riders and the most dangerous weapon = simple pen. Now search for bombs= understand. but of all the so-called illegal items,many  are a JOKE. I try to remember always to carry two pens in shirt pocket. w/o removing the top/can still do devastating damage to anyone slower than I am or equal speed.End game is all about who can move faster.
> Fun part is to remove your pen and loudly demand "What's your name.I am going to write"-stop  AND STRIKE while opponent's brain is engaged with what a big joke you are and how funny you are-"down your name!!" SSun tzu-"the art of war is the art of distraction." Prem Pal Singh Rawat-"anytime someone is distracting you-they are making a fool out of you." I would go for the shouldre joints,or between/down the ribs for max PAIN, as throat strike could kill, easily KILL.
> My grip=always same as for knife -point forward held like kitchen knife while cutting a steak.



The TSA once confiscated my wives tweezers, while I was carrying a large, sturdy, metal-bodied pen.


----------



## Shajikfer

I always carry a ball point pen and sharpened pencil with me just in case. I've done so since the 9/11 attacks. For some reason it occurred to me that if I had one on a plane I wouldn't be defenseless in the situation. Plus you can bring pens anywhere, pencils especially. 14 years later, I've learned you can roll a magazine into a baton, and even use a coin to gouge.

Heck, I imagine even a handheld lighter could act as a kubabaton, or at least a tiny one. Jackets can be easily used to handle a knife attack as well, and perhaps taking it to a ridiculous extreme, when I wear sandles I think about how I could kick it into the person as a distraction and then wallop them.

So I suppose what makes something a weapon, in its essence, is how you use it. A jacket for example wont do too much damage if you whip them with it or swing it, etc, but it could be life saving if someone is trying to stab you and you use it to shield. I remember once coming to a friends house and his dalmation attacked me; had I not had a book I was holding for whatever reason to cover my wrist I would have been seriously mauled. I still have the book and there are two deep holes in it from where the dog attempted to bite me but got it instead. I got lucky I suppose. The cell-phones I buy have to be hand held, and small enough to fit in my hand while still being large enough that if I swung with them they could make a point of impact before my hand does. I suppose I'm a bit paranoid when it comes to what I wear and keep on me.

Anything honestly can become a weapon, but pens seem ready made to be so- the sharper its point the more it can rend and tear, but I do not think it can cut smoothly. The cut it will make would probably be akin to a cats, where it jumps from point to point in the serrated line. But then I could be wrong- I have never cut or stabbed someone with a pen. One thing this post made me wonder is, if its a pen that bleeds easily, can the ink itself become a poison? Surely with applied pressure and movement along the tissue the ink would come out as well. Not saying you should do that as that seems overly malicious, but it seems like something that would happen if it were utilized.


----------



## elder999

Shajikfer said:


> Anything honestly can become a weapon, .


A piece of toilet paper?


----------



## Shajikfer

Heh, why not? I'm trying to think of how though. I suppose at the least you could jam it in their eye if its balled up. I guess I have to take the jab; is it single ply?

Cause that's already kind of a weapon to a lot of people's bums haha.


----------



## Dirty Dog

elder999 said:


> A piece of toilet paper?



Well, if it's been used...


----------



## Blindside

elder999 said:


> A piece of toilet paper?


 
toilet paper shank


----------



## elder999

Blindside said:


> toilet paper shank


Kinda why I specified quantity.....


----------



## Jenna

Blindside said:


> toilet paper shank


awesome! Jx


----------



## Orange Lightning

Those pens look awesome! I would definitely buy one. 
I once had a similar, slightly less sensible line of reasoning with stainless steel chopsticks. I thought it was clever at first but....
yeah it didn't really end up being all that clever.


----------



## Shajikfer

Heh, those chopsticks look like pens also. Wouldn't that be interestingly utilizable if done well?

I'm also wondering if that TP shank used only one roll.


----------



## Orange Lightning

Shajikfer said:


> Heh, those chopsticks look like pens also. Wouldn't that be interestingly utilizable if done well?
> 
> I'm also wondering if that TP shank used only one roll.



Sure. They could work. You could use them to hit soft targets really quickly, and at a range. They could be a little grippier, but they would mostly be fine. 
But you would never have them! xD They would never be in your pocket or in your shirt. If they were in your backpack, you should really grab something better than chopsticks if you have the time to rummage your bag for a weapon. 
For me at the time though, it wasn't too bad an idea. I have chopsticks on me every day anyway. 
.....There's this scene in Kiss of the Dragon where Jet Li stabs a guy in the throat with 2 wooden chopsticks. That may have been the inspiration. 

Couldn't find it though. Here's a clip from some Steven Seagal movie.






<iframe width="640" height="360" src="Seagal Chopsticks - YouTube" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------

