# last will and testament



## progressivetactics

I got about 32 calls in the last 36 hours from Master Carnes (see other posts).
He has told me that he has obtained (a copy of) the last will and rights of Remy Presas.  He is stating the signature of Remy is much different then any he had on his certificates, and because he is the guardian and keeper of the art, he denounces this article.

Has anyone else heard of this article floating around?  What is your make of it?

I guess, from what he told me on the phone that REmy left the art to Dr. Schea.  and had a board of directors like Jeff Delaney and others.  

Just curious if any of you have heard of this article, not particularly if you know about mr carnes...i think we have done that before.

bb


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> *The Will
> Yes the will exists. To my knowledge there were 3 made. Ive seen 1 & 3, but not 2. They where written by the following:
> 
> 1. David Pajak (sp) - Buffalo, NY
> 2. Brett Salafia - Newington, CT
> 3. Kevin Black - Buffalo, NY
> 
> They way I got to see them is that the Presas family showed them to me while I visited with them at thier home in October of 2001. In addition the 3rd will was started in my house and finished in Michael Bates home. I didnt get to see them until after Remys passing, but he did announce the International Board at the 2001 Orlando Camp.
> 
> As I recall there was about 30 names of people who would form a corporation after Remys passing and this would be the governing body for Modern Arnis. Im summarizing but for the most part that was it.*


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by progressivetactics _
> *He has told me that he has obtained (a copy of) the last will and rights of Remy Presas.  He is stating the signature of Remy is much different then any he had on his certificates, and because he is the guardian and keeper of the art, he denounces this article.
> *



He probably saw the draft of the will that Mr. Black prepared. The Presas family made the same mistake.




> _Originally posted by progressivetactics _
> *I guess, from what he told me on the phone that REmy left the art to Dr. Schea.  and had a board of directors like Jeff Delaney and others. *



As I said before there was about 30 of us on this board and in the will that I saw, all of the members had EQUAL power.
:asian:


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## stickarts

Just a question. if it were a draft, still, why would there be a bogus looking signature on there?


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Because Kevin's wife signed were Remy's signature would go. This was done so Remy would know were it would go. For those who knew Remy more on the personal side, you should understand.
:asian:


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## stickarts

thanks.


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## Tapps

ANOTHER "Keeper of the art"

interesting.


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## progressivetactics

Thanks for the feedback.  Please don't anyone take offense to anything listed here.  I have been very fortunate to have made some friends through Modern Arnis, and enjoy the art very much.  The more I learn, the more I enjoy the art.  As I become more involved, the more history I hear/learn/read, with a big part coming from Martial Talk (thanks everyone!).  I am not trying to discredit any instructor or orginization, nor glorify any one orginization. Just writing what was typed on this document I recieved.

With Master Carnes giving me stories much different then what I am used to, I can make many of my own assumptions, however; I would like to be informed prior to making them.  I'm sure some of my questions on MT come off as ignorant to many of you seasoned veterans of Arnis,please forgive me.  Again, I'm only a newbie trying to learn the art.


I am a little confused by the document, but I haven't had much experience looking at these, so no surpise here! 
It is a "certified copy" from August 20, 2003, of Wake  County.  Why a copy was just made to be forward out, i'm not sure.  Also, I think since this is the one on record from August at the county building, it would indicate that this is the 3rd of the 3 wills.  

The second decree of the will states
I direct that my executor forma  legal corporation to promote the art of Modern Arnis. I direct that the mission of this orginization will be to promote, teach, and repserve the art of Modern Arnis, which has been my lifes passion and work.  The board will elect a chairman and co-chairman from its ranks at the annual meeting of the board, which will be held immediatly before or after the summer camp which is held yearly in MIchigan, or at another location to be chosen by the members by majority vote.
The board members will consist of the following individuals: Brian Zawaliniski, charles gauss, Bruce Chiu, Jeff Delaney, Dan Anderson, Terry Wareham, Doug Pierre, Dr. Randy Schea, Al Garza, Timothy Hartman, Dave Hoffman, Larry Rocha, Brett Salafia, Ken Smith, James Ladis, J. RIchard Roy, Fred King, Besar Ancola, Lee Lowery,David Converse, Andrew Filardo, Michael Bates, David Ng, Roaln Rivera, Roland Dantes, Myelino Hofana, Kevin Black, Dr Charles Terry, Dieter Knutel, Garbielle Roloff.  

Additional rules, regulations and by-laws governing the exectuvie board and the orginization as a whole shall be promulgated upon the formation of the corporation.

The tenth decree states: I nominate Dr Randy Schea, of Huston Texas, and David Hoffman as the co-executors o fmy estate to serve without bond.  ..... Then it falls to Yvette Wong, if those 2 are unwilling or unable.

This document was made on May 14th, 2000.  As to the signature, I have no idea the authenticity of it, I wouldn't know a fake from real. 

As I read this, It appears that Remys wish was for Dr Schea and Mr Hoffman to make a corporation, with the group above all being share holders, and from the group a chair and co-chair to be nominated.   Has anything like this been attempted?  Was there a meeting with all these people to try to orginize?  I know some of the people have started thier own orginizations, but from my intial feelings, I would think they would all be willing to help orginize this.  

I am not familiar with many of the peole on the list, are most of them high ranking Arnis players? What has happened to them?  

Again, sorry for the questions, im just trying to play catch up on history from as many sources as I can.  I would hate to rely on Master Carnes as my primary source of information, as he is my entertainment.  How come he wasnt listed as he is keeper of the art?  Is that a legit title?  I have seen his tapes from many many years ago, and he is/was a talented guy, Did Remy bestow a Keeper title on him?  Did he do that for anyone else?

bb


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## DoxN4cer

> _Originally posted by progressivetactics _
> *Thanks for the feedback.  ...
> Additional rules, regulations and by-laws governing the exectuvie board and the orginization as a whole shall be promulgated upon the formation of the corporation.
> 
> The tenth decree states: I nominate Dr Randy Schea, of Huston Texas, and David Hoffman as the co-executors of my estate to serve without bond.  ..... Then it falls to Yvette Wong, if those 2 are unwilling or unable...
> 
> ...This document was made on May 14th, 2000.  As to the signature, I have no idea the authenticity of it, I wouldn't know a fake from real...
> 
> As I read this, It appears that Remys wish was for Dr Schea and Mr Hoffman to make a corporation, with the group above all being share holders, and from the group a chair and co-chair to be nominated.   Has anything like this been attempted?  Was there a meeting with all these people to try to orginize?  I know some of the people have started thier own orginizations, but from my intial feelings, I would think they would all be willing to help orginize this.
> 
> *




Interesting... Where did you come across the document? It sheds some light on the subject of the leadership of Modern Arnis and how it may have faultered, if it is truly authentic. Does it say anything in particular about the duties and powers of the executors, and precisely how the board is to convene?

Floating somebody elses will around seem sort of dirty to me. Is a document like that considered public information? Perhaps some of the attorneys on the forum can comment on that. 

Tim Kashino


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## progressivetactics

I apologize if it is upseting or troubling, and I certainly don't want to cause grief or ill will.  I'm sure we can have this post erased immediatly, if it is a problem.  NO DISRESPECT INTENDED TO ANYONE.

This document was sent to me by Master Carnes in California. He said he had a right to this, as he is the "keeper of the art", he said.  

There is not leadership guidelines other then what i listed. 
I admit, i felt a bit weird seeing document as well, but thought the Arnis part had some material worth discussing.  The family and estate issues I would not list in public forum.

bb


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## Cruentus

I am actually going to keep my mouth shut (for a change) for awhile on this one, and let others who were closer to the will post before I state my opinions. Some may not be able to for legal reasons, but others certainly can shed some light on this topic.

As for Master Carnes; not sure where his title comes from, but I wouldn't rely on him as the sole "keeper of the art." I'll shy away from badmouthing someone who I don't know here, it is just that we ALL are the arts keepers. 

Also, you asked about the credentials of the folks listed. I will say this much, that the folks listed were all around at one time or another, and all played an administrative role whether to a small, or large degree. Some hosted camps, some wrote curiculum, some were Professors Attorney at one time, and some were just around to help when professor needed help with his affairs. THey demonstrated at one time or another the ability to administrate. So, the choice of Board members was a business/adminstrative decision rather then a skill/rank based decision. This is important to understand because from an outside perspective it might appear that these gentlemen listed were somehow "crowned" the next "kings" of Modern Arnis, when it had nothing to do with that. These people were simply designated to run the "corporation".

I have said more then I planned, so now I'll let others give more insight on the matter before I post my opinions.

Thank You,

Paul Janulis


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## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *Floating somebody elses will around seem sort of dirty to me. Is a document like that considered public information? Perhaps some of the attorneys on the forum can comment on that.
> 
> Tim Kashino *



It does seem dirty to me, but in Progressive tactics defense, I don't blame him for posting it. I don't think Progressive was "dirty," in this case. If I were in his position, one of a fairly new practitioner in the art, and I came accross this document because it was sent to me by someone who claims to be of importance, I would certainly have a lot of questions myself. I don't blame him for posting the portion he posted, and asking those questions here. Especially considering he only posted what pertained to the art, not the personal matters of his estate.

But I agree with you that it is sort of dirty to float someones will around if your not the executor, and if it isn't public information. I would blame this on Mr. Carnes, though, or perhaps, who ever let Mr. Carnes have a copy.

Anyways, it will be interesting to see how this unfolds. I would like to hear what Mr. Hoffman has to say on the matter specifically, because he was not only executor, but he posted that he would devulge details when he could legally. I wonder if he can yet, considering that the "cat is out of the bag" now, so to speak.


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## DoxN4cer

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *It does seem dirty to me, but in Progressive tactics defense, I don't blame him for posting it. I don't think Progressive was "dirty," in this case. If I were in his position, one of a fairly new practitioner in the art, and I came accross this document because it was sent to me by someone who claims to be of importance, I would certainly have a lot of questions myself. I don't blame him for posting the portion he posted, and asking those questions here. Especially considering he only posted what pertained to the art, not the personal matters of his estate.*




Paul... I think you've read my intention incorrectly. I cannot and do not fault (nor should anyone else) Prog. Tactics for posting that information. It was very interesting, and it will be extrememly interesting to see what transpires from here.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *But I agree with you that it is sort of dirty to float someones will around if your not the executor, and if it isn't public information. I would blame this on Mr. Carnes, though, or perhaps, who ever let Mr. Carnes have a copy.*



Exactly.


Tim Kashino


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## bloodwood

It is a shame that this is the way we are seeing the Arnis contents of the will for the first time. If these were truly the Professor's wishes they should have been made known soon after his death. Maybe there wouldn't have been so much fragmentation of the art. But it's too late for that now, the lines in the sand have been drawn. 

If I remember correctly the Presas family put out a statement that their father died intestate. I can see why they made that statement as they are not stated in the document as part of the group of directors.
Looking over this group that is named, I think if you put some of them together in the same room it would not be a pleasant picture. 

Why this document was withheld for so long just adds to the speculation as to what was supposed to happen. As far as posting the document, once the will is probated it is public record. Now whether this was a copy of the probated will or just a copy of one of the three that are out there remains to be seen. The only disrespect I see is to the one who had it and didn't probate it or at least make the part that involved Modern Arnis public.
This should be interesting to watch as it starts to unfold.

Bloodwood


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## stickarts

Modern arnis was never run as a structured organization and i am not sure how it could have become one even if this will was the intent of Prof. In the times i spoke with Prof., his mind seemed to constantly change about how he wanted it to continue but he seldom spoke about a board, but more about who "the successor" would be.
I know the majority of the people listed in the will.
Some of the folks listed in the will stepped back from the politics a long time ago, others have very different ideas about what direction the art should go in.
I don't know how anyone can really know beyond the shadow of a doubt what was "intended" since there is so much confusion to try and sort out. Even people very close to the situation when prof. passed have given me very different pictures of what happened and how it happened.
Although, I, and i am sure, many others would like to understand it all better, i think each has already determined their own course and thats not likely to change much as far as there being any great strides in unity being made.
There are plenty of folks that know more about this subject than i do! This is just my take on it from my time with Prof. and the art.


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## Dan Anderson

Unfortunately, at this stage of the game, I don't think the will is going to really change anything.  It will give some people room to say, "I told you so." and point fingers, though.
Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *Unfortunately, at this stage of the game, I don't think the will is going to really change anything.  It will give some people room to say, "I told you so." and point fingers, though.*



I suspect that this remark is dead-on.


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## Rich Parsons

Well, I do not think it will change my attitude towards those people out there who are teaching and marketing Modern Arnis.

Yet, the historian inside of me still wants to know. 
:asian:


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## Dan Anderson

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I suspect that this remark is dead-on. *



It is.  I do want to clarify one thing and this remark isn't made as a snotball toss off comment.  A number of us have stepped forward and have gone on our own in spite of the lack of direction without an immediate will.  Tim with WMAA, Kelly with WMAC, Dieter with IMAF, Philippines, Jeff with IMAF, Bram with CSSD/SC as well as myself with MA-80 have all done so.  I very highly doubt any of us are going to change the paths we have chosen now.  Two things we all have in common are the fact that we are students of the late Remy Presas and we have all have passion and conviction in what we are doing.

I am definitely with Rich in the historian in me wants to know as well.  We'll see.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *. . .
> Dieter with IMAF, Philippines, Jeff with IMAF,
> . . .
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson *



Dan,

Did you mean to say Dieter with the DAV and relations with IMAF Philipines? and Dr. Schea and the MOTTs with the IMAF? As well as Jeff and the other IMAF?

(* Not a snotball comment, just asking before someone tries to make this something I believe it is not. *)
:asian:


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## Dieter

Hi Dan and Rich,

well, I and the DAV are open to work with anybody who is interested. But it is true, that since the Professor is dead, we will intensify our bonds with the IMAF Philippines. Granted, that my contacts to the Philippines from the 80ies helped.

For me, like for Kelly,  Dan, Tim, Randi, etc it would be very hard to accept anybody out of this group as the top man above the others. I mean this without any negative feelings. If you have been training with somebody or even longer than somebody it will be hard to accet them as new leaders.

For me, though, it is no problem to accept, that there are Filipino Masters that are higher than I am and to acknowledge that.

One thing, that I thought is a little funny, again without any bad feelings is, thqat I have heared so many of Remy´s strudents that want to explore the roots of Modern Arnis and go to the Balinatwak with Ted Buot, instead having a look at the roots of Modern Arnis with the Modern Arnis masters in or from the Philippines.
Sure, Manong Ted Buot is available, fort he is living in the US.
But when I start discussing this topic, I often hear: In the Philippines they have anothe ModernA rnis than we have here. True, at least ijn parts, but Kelly has another than Dan and another than Tim or me too. And they have other things, that you or we don´t haveand, beleve me, there are Masters, that DO have the techniques Of the late Remy Presas. He was back in the Philippines several times and he shared his knowledge with his Filipion students.  

But anyway, this is no criticism, I was only wondering.

This would lead me to another topic, but I will  start that in another thread, the 2. FMA-Festival in Germany, here 



Best regards


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## Guro Harold

> _Originally posted by Dieter _
> *
> One thing, that I thought is a little funny, again without any bad feelings is, thqat I have heared so many of Remy´s strudents that want to explore the roots of Modern Arnis and go to the Balinatwak with Ted Buot, instead having a look at the roots of Modern Arnis with the Modern Arnis masters in or from the Philippines.
> Sure, Manong Ted Buot is available, fort he is living in the US.
> But when I start discussing this topic, I often hear: In the Philippines they have anothe ModernA rnis than we have here. True, at least ijn parts, but Kelly has another than Dan and another than Tim or me too. And they have other things, that you or we don´t haveand, beleve me, there are Masters, that DO have the techniques Of the late Remy Presas. He was back in the Philippines several times and he shared his knowledge with his Filipion students.
> *



:asian:  - Excellent point!


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## Rich Parsons

Dieter,

If I lived in the PI, or had one that lived within an hour of me like Manong Ted Buot, the I would try to get an introduction and see if they would accept me as a student. I have no problem learning from anyone, only that it is a little hard to get to the PI regularly. I can get to South East Michigan once a week for my lesson with Manong Ted Buot. Going to the PI is not as easy for me. I have no probelms with those that do, and applaud those that do, yet I foudn an excellant source in my backyard, and I am greedy and I am learning what I can.

I know Dieter meant no disrespect and none was taken, only stating why I have gone this route.

Best Regards
:asian:


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## Guro Harold

I am also sure that Datu Dieter's comments were not a slam and I think that it is cool to be able to study with a grandmaster in your "backyard".

But I also think that Dieter has made a good point in regards to those in Modern Arnis who don't value the masters of Modern Arnis in the Philippines and take  their knowledge and skill for granted because of the perception that they didn't have the latest information from GM Remy A. Presas.

Lets not take them for granted and I am sure that we can learn from them.   We need to also remind ourselves again that tomorrow is not promised.

Harold


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## Dan Anderson

I know Dieter and don't think he made an offensive comment.  There are a couple of points I will make as regards myself, though.  Due to finances and interest over the years, I haven't gone to the Philippines to search out other masters.  I grew up, martial arts wise, in the US and have found what I have needed and wanted here in the States.  The second point is the same as the one Rich made - the Philippines is _x_ number of miles away and Detroit is less therefore I'll go to Detroit.  It is not real to me to go to the Philippines at this time.

As to my searching out Manong Ted Buot and requesting training with him, the reasons were several: 1) balintawak eskrima_is_ one of the base arts of Modern Arnis and I don't know balintawak, 2) Manong Ted came highly recommended to me by a number of others and 3) having met the man, I really like him as a person.

Dieter, on the other hand, has made many trips to the Philippines and has made contacts there so it is very real to search out the roots of Modern Arnis amongst the older students of Remy Presas.  To each our own.  

Harold,
_"But I also think that Dieter has made a good point in regards to those in Modern Arnis who don't value the masters of Modern Arnis in the Philippines and take their knowledge and skill for granted because of the perception that they didn't have the latest information from GM Remy A. Presas._

Yes, Dieter made a good point.  I don't hold my older brothers in any less esteem because of that.  Actually, from what Dieter told me at the Symposium, they have been included in on this material when RP was back there last time.  

On a different tack I find it interesting who is named and who isn't named in the will (if this is the last version of it).  All for now.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Cebu West

Let's face the fact that it's hard enough trying to fit your training in here in the States due to the hectic pace we all seem to be going at these days. Trying to fit in trips to the PI is almost impossible for most. For the ones who are lucky enough to get there more power to them. The more info they bring back with them the better for all of us.
I also believe that if the masters in the PI were here in the US they would be sought out by many who would seek training.

 I recently had a lead about an old Filipino man in Philadelphia that used to teach arnis to the army in the PI. A Filipino friend of mine gave me in idea where he lived and I found myself knocking on strangers doors in search of this man. I must sadly say that my search led to finding out that he passed away about a year ago. My loss. The thought of finding this man really got me excited. So I don't think it's a lack of respect at all towards them but a matter of distance and difficult access to them. 

The ranks of the true knowledgeable masters is dwindling fast so when they are available to us we should take advantage of it.


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## Dieter

Hi all,

first of all, I am glad, everybody understood my contribution as what it was: a topic  to discuss about and not an offense against anybody. Good.

Regarding Manong Ted Buot: I know, and that is why I wrote it, that he is available what makes it easy for many just to go there and train, which is great ( I would go there probably too, if he would live around my backyard).

And belive me, I know how hard it is to take the time and money to fly to the Philippines and then coping with the weather, accomodation, transport, food and the mentality of the Filipinos (again no offense intended, but, just as a matter of fact, asians act and think different than europeans and americans and one has to adjust to that).

So I did not mean, that everybody should or would fly to the Philippines (not even you Dan, for you only have 5 kids right?     )
I know that is not possible.
But what I ment is, that I was wondering, that nobody (exept of Datu Kelly Worden) took the effort in trying to contact some of the Filipino Modern Arnis Masters and tries to setup a seminar with them. But not even the discussion arose, what really made me wonder.

If it is a matter of not having an adress, no problem, I can help out with that. Here is the e-mail adress of Samuel "Bambit" Dulay, the IMAF-Philipines Secretary and Chairman for External Affairs:

raparnis@hotmail.com



For all who are curious: We have the Senior Masters  Roland Dantes 88th Dan Modern Arnis) and Samuel Dulay (7th Dan Modern Arnis) in Germany for the 2nd FMA Festival in Germany (6th/7th of March 2004) and for the weekend after (13th/14th of March 2004) See the 2nd FMA-Festival thread for more details.


Rich:
I know you are willing to learn patiently form anybody. During my lessons at the symposium you trained without a word and very humble, eventhough you probably knew most, if not all of the techniques I demonstrated. Also and especially for you: no offense ment at all.


But I think it is good to "talk" and think about this and let the discussion continue.

And one more thing, VERY much in the future:
We are thinking (to say planning would be too much at the moment) about a weeks training camp in the Philippines in the summer of 2006. How about some americans joining up there with us? I will keep you informed.

And please will nobody tell me now, that I did not say this one early enough!  

Enough food for thoughts, I hope.



Best regards from Germany 


Dieter Knüttel 
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by Palusut _
> *But I also think that Dieter has made a good point in regards to those in Modern Arnis who don't value the masters of Modern Arnis in the Philippines and take  their knowledge and skill for granted because of the perception that they didn't have the latest information from GM Remy A. Presas.
> 
> Lets not take them for granted and I am sure that we can learn from them.   We need to also remind ourselves again that tomorrow is not promised.
> 
> Harold *



I don't think anyone said this. I've seen the Presas kid's and Master Rodel, I've had comunications with Roland Dantes and offered him seminars whenever he would be visiting the US. Just before I left for Sweden I tried to meet with Datu Shishir, but our schedules didn't work out. We at the WMAA are more than willing to work with people from th PI. I've already scheduled a trip in July to go to the islands.

* As far as GM Ted Buot goes:* 
It was Remy himself who wanted me to train with Manong Ted. He felt that this was important in training. I started training with Manong Ted before Remy had any problems with his tumor and at Remy's 2000 Atlanta camp he and I disussed for my training was going.


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## Guro Harold

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *I don't think anyone said this. I've seen the Presas kid's and Master Rodel, I've had comunications with Roland Dantes and offered him seminars whenever he would be visiting the US. Just before I left for Sweden I tried to meet with Datu Shishir, but our schedules didn't work out. We at the WMAA are more than willing to work with people from th PI. I've already scheduled a trip in July to go to the islands.
> *



Datu Hartman,

I am sure that this has not been your stand.   My point wasn't aimed at you or anyone who has made  an attempt to train with the PI masters.

Harold


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## Cruentus

*Training in the PI:*  I think that as Modern Arnis people, it is important to at the very least see what some of the PI masters are doing, if we are able too. Is their Modern Arnis going to be exactly the same as what we learned here in the U.S.? No! Heck, that wouldn't be any fun anyways. Most of the fun about getting together with someone from a different region is to learn something different, or to get a different take on things.

I'll tell ya, I really enjoyed Dieter's session at the symposium BECAUSE the DAV is a bit different then how I play. I got to learn about how someone else was training. If it was exactly the same, then I wouldn't have had the interest.

Modern Arnis PI? Sure....I plan to go and train w/ some of the PI Modern Arnis masters. Maybe just once. Next year I will be an Uncle (my Fiancee's sister just got married and pregnant), and when they get back from Germany (where they are stationed in the military) they will end up in California, most likely. So...will I go visit....yes! And...how do you think I'll be trying to plan the trip....when the Presas Kids, Kelly Worden, Roland Dantes, or all have an event, so I can go check em' out, of course! Now...with the PI...I'd like to go next year for sure, but with wedding plans, I don't know if it is possible. But...if Tim goes next year as planned, he'll be able to pave the way in terms of contacts for me for the following year I am sure. And...maybe a trip to Germany if Dieter holds another big event like what he has planned in a couple years.

The possabilies are endless. However...there is only so much time and money, so it needs to be balanced out.

*Balintawak Training:* Why do I train Balintawak? Although it is nice to see Modern Arnis Roots through Balintawak, that isn't my primary reason. My primary reason for training with Manong Ted isn't because he is in my backyard either, although that is convienent, and it allows me to see him 1-2 times a week.

My primary reason for training Balintawak is: I want to learn Balintawak! When I heard that there was a system that focuses on single cane, and that focuses on combat (not exhibition or competition), I was hooked before I had my first meeting with Manong Ted. And...I am greatful to Tim Hartman, because I wouldn't have known about Ted without him. And...I am greatful to be training in Balintawak to this day.

My point: There are many different ways to explore our roots, to progress, and too get better. Use what's accessable to you, and do what you like! Not everyone can take the same path, and not everyone should.

 :asian:


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## Guro Harold

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *
> My point: There are many different ways to explore our roots, to progress, and too get better. Use what's accessable to you, and do what you like! Not everyone can take the same path, and not everyone should.
> *



Paul,

Great point.  My sentiments exactly.

Harold


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## Dan Anderson

> _Originally posted by Dieter _
> *
> 
> So I did not mean, that everybody should or would fly to the Philippines (not even you Dan, for you only have 5 kids right?     )
> 
> For all who are curious: We have the Senior Masters  Roland Dantes 88th Dan Modern Arnis) Best regards from Germany
> 
> 
> Dieter Knüttel
> Datu of Modern Arnis *



6 kids and the "88th" is a typo for all you sharpshooters out there.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Dieter _
> *. . .
> Rich:
> I know you are willing to learn patiently form anybody. During my lessons at the symposium you trained without a word and very humble, eventhough you probably knew most, if not all of the techniques I demonstrated. Also and especially for you: no offense ment at all.
> 
> But I think it is good to "talk" and think about this and let the discussion continue.
> . . .
> Best regards from Germany
> 
> Dieter Knüttel
> Datu of Modern Arnis *



Dieter,

Thank you for the kind words. They are appricated. 

I agree that it is good to talk, and we did that, along with Dan and Tim and some others when we met in Buffalo, New York. I enjoyed the discussion very much as well as most of the training.

Best Regards
:asian:


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *. . .
> As far as GM Ted Buot goes:
> It was Remy himself who wanted me to train with Manong Ted. He felt that this was important in training. I started training with Manong Ted before Remy had any problems with his tumor and at Remy's 2000 Atlanta camp he and I disussed for my training was going. *



This goes for many of those in Modern Arnis. Their initial Introduction and or recomendation came from Remy Presas. Remy and Ted were/are good friends and enjoyed the time they spent together.

I am glad we have had the opportunity to train with them both.
:asian:


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by Dieter _
> *
> One thing, that I thought is a little funny, again without any bad feelings is, thqat I have heared so many of Remy´s strudents that want to explore the roots of Modern Arnis and go to the Balinatwak with Ted Buot, instead having a look at the roots of Modern Arnis with the Modern Arnis masters in or from the Philippines.
> 
> Sure, Manong Ted Buot is available, fort he is living in the US.
> But when I start discussing this topic, I often hear: In the Philippines they have anothe Modern Arnis than we have here. True, at least ijn parts, but Kelly has another than Dan and another than Tim or me too. And they have other things, that you or we don´t haveand, beleve me, there are Masters, that DO have the techniques Of the late Remy Presas. He was back in the Philippines several times and he shared his knowledge with his Filipion students.   *



I had to organize my thoughts on this one:

1.	There are very few who train with Manong Ted. You need to know some one to get an introduction and there is still no guarantee that he will take you as a student. There are even fewer members in the MT.com community that train with GM Buot. 

2.	We at the WMAA are very open to train with people from ALL eras of Modern Arnis. At our first Delaware camp we had GM Anding De Leon. He received his black belt from Remy in the PI in the early 70s and continued training till Remys death. 

3.	I dont feel that we need a connection to the PI to justify whom we are and what we are doing. As far as leadership goes Im it for the WMAA. Prof awarded me the title of DATU (Leader, Chieftain, War Lord). He put me in charge of the Can-Am chapter on the IMAF. I would run much of the sessions of his camps. If he trusted me with these responsibilities, then that should be enough for everyone else. 

4.	I can see why you might feel that you need to seek out more people for training. Remy spent most of his time in the USA, and only visited Germany once of twice a year. This would make for gaps in you training. Ive been training Modern Arnis since the early 80s and have been doing it as my base system. I feel that if I never learned anything else I would be content because Remy trained me well. This doesnt mean I know it all. What this means is that Remy prepared me well. I still do train and plan to keep doing so.

Respectfully,
Datu Tim Hartman
World Modern Arnis Alliance


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## Cruentus

> Prof awarded me the title of DATU (Leader, Chieftain, War Lord).



Alright...it's settled then. I get to introduce you as "WarLord Hartman" at the Michigan camp! :knight:


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## Dieter

Hi Tim,

in response of your post:

to 1)
here in MT it appears, that almost everybody trains with him, you, Dan, Rich,  Paul, Tim Kashion (not sure) many seemed to say that they are training with him. May be a wrong impression. And, to avoid conflicts, I think it is great to be able to train with him if you have the chance. Of course nothing wrong with that.

2)
I know, one can see it from you camps with whom you train. The thread was not a thread specially aimed at the WMAA, but a general statement to start a discussion.

3)
Well, Tim, I also got the Datu title, even a few years befor you. I started Arnis in 1978 so I have also been doing it for a while. I have students that are 5th and 4th Dan examined by Remy and I can still teach them new things.
And I have built up an organisation here, without a Grandmaster looking over my shoulder all the times and we have trained over 4000 Arnis members so far and produced more than 150 Modern Arnis black belts. 
I don´t know if anybody in the US has a Modern Arnis history like that, so regarding leadership, I think I don´t have to be taught by anyone.

4)
It is not the point, that I think I need more training. I just like to go to the source. Now that Remy is no longer with us, I go to the country of origin where I try to pay my respect to the Filipinos, who have been involved in Modern Arnis since more than 40 years. As a matter of fact we are doing FILIPINO martial arts.
I like to see what and how they do things and I like them to see my students. Thats why we will bring them to Germany, because I also want my students to see them too.
Do you think Datu Kelly Worden "needs" training with the Presas kids? I would think no, but he still makes seminars with them to pay them, Remy and the Filipinos his respect.

Regarding techniques, we have more than enough, but I am only 43 and I have to admit, I am still courious.
And everybody I trianed with in the Philippines had something else to share, something different and something new. Some more some less, but still it was interesting all way through.
I don´t need to learn more. I don´t feel we have an incomplete system, not at all. But I still want to learn and know more about Modern Arnis, be it getting deeper into the techniques of today or into the techniques of the past.
I am just trying to see what others are doing, like in the US or in the Philippines and I wondered, if others might not also have this feeling.

I also want to give the Filipinos the feeling that we value their knowledge and efforts, even though they are not seen so much in the world especially in the US, where people mainly look what is happening in the US and not outside (exeptions proove the rule, we say)

That is why I want to let the people know, that Modern Arnis is very alive in the Philippines and incourage them, to explore it there too, if they get the chance, or at least know about it.

Thats why I started that discussion.   


Again, to make it clear: This in not a shot against anybody or any organisation. Everybody and every organisation, who trains Modern Arnis keep the memories of Remy alive and does a good job. Here in Germany, there in the US and in the Philippines and anywhere else. 

Good job, keep going.

BTW Tim, when you got to the Philippines in summer next year, do you plan to train also with the Modern Arnis Masters there ore are you going only to Cebu? 
Just curious.


Best regards from Germany


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## Cruentus

> to 1)
> here in MT it appears, that almost everybody trains with him, you, Dan, Rich, Paul, Tim Kashion (not sure) many seemed to say that they are training with him. May be a wrong impression. And, to avoid conflicts, I think it is great to be able to train with him if you have the chance. Of course nothing wrong with that.



I just want to chime in here on this one point. It may have SEEMED like many Modern Arnis people at the symposium train with Manong Ted because Rich Tim and myself represented Manong Ted's Balintawak at the symposium. And...I post a lot here, and, lets face it, I have a big mouth (lol) so it may seem that a lot of people have sought out Manong Ted. However, this just isn't the case.

There are a few Modern Arnis people from Michigan who train with him, but most are out of any kind of limelight by choice. There is myself out in Rochester. There is the flint group consisting of Rich Parsons who has been teaching some seminars lately, Rich's instructor Jim Powers (long time Modern Arnis player), Jim's son, Mr. Owens, and Ian (a cop out in Pontiac). Then there is Jaye Spiro out in Ferndale. We could include Rocky Paswik as well due to his vast experience with Professor and Manong Ted, although he currently isn't active with Manong and has been pursueing his own system. No disrespect if I have missed anyone here, but all in all, you have only about 7 people that I know of in Michigan who are both Remy and Ted; and most of these started while Remy was alive and with his blessing.

Outside of Michigan, we have Tim Hartman who comes consistantly to Ted, but that is about it.

We do have Dan Anderson who respectfully has been accepted as a student. But Dan has some major distance problems; Oregon is an expensive plane ride away from Ted. So, all in all, in the past year Dan has only been able to log in about 7 or 8 hours of training in with the man...hardly enough time to really explore deeply into Modern Arnis roots through Balintawak. 

Tim Kashino and others do not train with Manong Ted.

So, all and all, we have only about 9 people in the Modern Arnis universe who do Balintawak with Manong Ted that I can count. I could be accidentaly leaving a few Modern Arnis people out, but would still say that there is no more then 12 people. However, lets say I am totally wron, and that there is 20 people who are both Remy and Ted. This still isn't even 1% of the Modern Arnis populus in the U.S. Now sure, it has gotten some exposure because Tim is one of the Big names for Modern Arnis and it is no secret that he does Balintawak. Plus, Rich, Dan A., and myself talk about it here, giving it additional exposure. But the fact is, Manong Ted is very selective with who he trains. You are usually only allowed in through recomendation, and even with a recommendation there is no gaurantee that he will train you. He has a sign on the wall when entering his basement that says, "Some of the Worlds greatest Eskrimadors have passed through this portal," adequetly describing who he trains. He only wants to train people to be eskrimadors, and to be the best. He is going for quality rather then quantity.

So, despite your perception, there really isn't that many of us in Modern Arnis who train with Manong Ted in the first place. And although it is interesting to see some of the Modern Arnis roots in Balintawak, I train Balintawak because I love the system and it makes me a better stick fighter.


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## Rich Parsons

Paul et al,

I think you forgot Toasty! 
Master Jim Power, Master Jeff Owens, Ian Kershaw, Mike Power, Mike Cribbs and myself of the Flint Club, have all trained with or are currently training with Manong Ted Buot, in Balintawak. Add in Rocky Paswik and Jaye Spiro and Toasty, you do have some who have trained in Modern Arnis and in Balintawak, form Michigan. Dan Anderson and Tim Hartman have also either trained or are training with Manong Ted Buot in Balintawak.

Dieter et al,

I do believe that Tim K, Rich C, and Paul M, all have trained with Bobby Toboada in Balintawak Cuentada Escrima and I believe that Paul M, even has rank in this system. I am not sure of the rest.

Sifu Peter Vargas was also at the Buffalo symposium giving credit to Bobbu Toboada and Balintawak Cuentada Escrima, for he has trained with him as I believe so has Panung Guro Tom Bolden, when Bobby Toboada was in the New York Area.


So, I could see, where someone who was not on the inside of the training cirlces could think that everyone was going towards Balintawak. What you need to recognize is that most if not all of these people from Modern Arnis, started their Training in Balintawak while GM Remy Presas was alive, with his approval. I also know that Tim K, Rich C, and Paul M, trained in Balintawak Cuentada Escrima in the 90's, I just do not know if there was direct or implicit approval for their Training with Bobby Toboada.

:asian:


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## Cruentus

See, I knew I might have forgotted a few people; I didn't know that Toasty had done Modern Arnis...(I thought he did Inosanto stuff?).

Plus, yes there are more people doing Balintawak outside of Manong Ted. But the implication to me seemed to be that a vast # of people were gravitating towards Ted, which isn't the case, because there isn't that many.

Even if you consider the other Balintawak's, as Rich explains many of these affiliations were built prior to Remy's passing. So I don't see this great gravitation even if you were to consider the other Balintawaks outside Manong Ted.

I agree with Rich, though, that if your not inside the training circles one might think that there is this gravitation. However, in the large scheme of thigs there is not.

It is important to remember that the symposium was not a representation of the entire U.S. Modern Arnis populus; it was only a representation of a select few, most from the east coast, and some of Bram's guys from elsewhere. The bulk of the populus chose not to be represented at the event. With that being said, I will say that was the largest representation of both Modern Arnis and Balintawak (mostly Toaboda's) that I have seen at a "Modern Arnis" seminar event ever.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by Dieter _
> *
> BTW Tim, when you got to the Philippines in summer next year, do you plan to train also with the Modern Arnis Masters there ore are you going only to Cebu?
> Just curious.*



I will be going to Manilla and Cebu for sure and from there we plan on doing a bunch of island hoping. GM Jornales (Datu #5) is handling the travel. I would like to visit the Presas family and visit Remy's grave. Bong is handling our training schedule. I'm using this trip to find out more about the Filipino culture. 

Not to discredit the MA Masters in the PI, but another reason I feel that it's important for me to train with GM Buot is that he is from the school that Remy came from. Balitawak was the last art Remy practiced before forming MA. As part of MA's foundation I feel that it is important to understand Balintawak.


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## Dan Anderson

> We do have Dan Anderson who respectfully has been accepted as a student. But Dan has some major distance problems; Oregon is an expensive plane ride away from Ted. So, all in all, in the past year Dan has only been able to log in about 7 or 8 hours of training in with the man...hardly enough time to really explore deeply into Modern Arnis roots through Balintawak.



Boy, do I ever have distance problems and, yes, though the number of training hours with Manong Ted are relatively few, I can see the roots of MA via balintawak.  Don't count out the number of years I've been training in and analyzing martial arts.  I've only been in Modern Arnis for 23 years but active in martial arts for 37 years.



> Manong Ted is very selective with who he trains. You are usually only allowed in through recomendation, and even with a recommendation there is no gaurantee that he will train you. _*originally posted by Big Daddy paul*_



I am among the fortunate.  He is knowledgeable.  He is skilled.  And he is a good man.  I am among the fortunate.

Yours,
Dan "The Baby of balintawak" Anderson


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## Toasty

Thanks for remembering me this time Rich 
But Paul is correct, I came to Balintawak from the Inosanto Kali lineage. I haven't trained in Modern Arnis at all. 
Actually, the only FMA system I train in now is Balintawak Escrima.

but thanks for thinking of me...
Rob


P.S. Paul  FYI, most people use the term "Inosanto Blend" rather than "stuff"   ;o).  Being as Guro Inosanto's "stuff" if you will is comprised of: Giron Bahala Na Escrima, Cabales Serrada Escrima, Lacoste Kali, Villabrille Kali, Pekiti Tirsia Kali as well as several others (but I think these would be the major influences anyway)
its just easier to say "Inosanto Blend"


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## Cruentus

I never really knew what to call it, but 'blend' seems a little more accurate and less offensive (not that I was trying to be, lol) then 'stuff'


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## Cruentus

> Boy, do I ever have distance problems and, yes, though the number of training hours with Manong Ted are relatively few, I can see the roots of MA via balintawak. Don't count out the number of years I've been training in and analyzing martial arts. I've only been in Modern Arnis for 23 years but active in martial arts for 37 years.



Very true. I wasn't trying to discount your training or anything, but from Dieters perspective the implication seemed to be that everyone in the US ran to Manong Ted to find a new master after RP died. This is totally not the case. My point in mentioning you is that #1 yes, you have been accepted by Ted to be a student. But...#2 your "time in" hasn't been extensive, thus your research, MA-80 integrations, and innovations are all you, baby! 

:cheers:


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## Dan Anderson

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> Very true. I wasn't trying to discount your training or anything, but from Dieters perspective the implication seemed to be that everyone in the US ran to Manong Ted to find a new master after RP died. This is totally not the case.



Quite right.  I can see how he would think that as we mention him a lot. 



> My point in mentioning you is that #1 yes, you have been accepted by Ted to be a student. But...#2 your "time in" hasn't been extensive, thus your research, MA-80 integrations, and innovations are all you, baby!
> 
> :cheers:



My time in _is_ extremely limited.  Unfortunately I knew that would be the case when I asked to be his student but what limited time I do get, pearls baby, pearls.  It's helped a lot already.

Yours,
Dan (TBoB) Anderson


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *. . .
> Yours,
> Dan (TBoB) Anderson *



TBoB

I know about those Bob's you beat on 

I could not resist!


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## Guro Harold

Any update on the Will or Estate? This is the last thing that I saw: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...nt-from-the-Estate&highlight=Remy+Presas+will
and that was years ago.


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