# Joe Rogans Accomplishments and USTU/USTA events?



## Drose427

First, I'd like to preface this by saying I was not around then, nor do I know I have the full history of how USTU/USTA events are held.

Everyone one has heard of Joe Rogan being a TKD champion and winning the US Open. However, I've met a few fellow TKDoers who dispute it, saying it wasn't _the_ USTU US. Open. I also know that dang near every open style tournament calls itself The U.S. Open. Although the current weight classes do not line up with his account and there is currently no title of Grand Champion, I was not competing then and have very little experience with the USTU/USTA, so to my knowledge the organization could have ran events that way in the past. This whol debate sparked a couple questions in my head.

1. How much have USTA events changed in the last 30 years and what actually changed? (I assume a great deal) 

2. Was anyone here training or competing around that time (1985-87ish) that could clear that up? To me it sounds he was winning a smaller organizations tournament, but I simply do not know enough about the USTA and their past events and I'm wary to believe folks with a bias against Rogan because of his tendency to dismiss TMA's.


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## IcemanSK

I'm sorry that I ca't answer either question. But it is called the USAT now, not USTA.

USA Taekwondo - Official Website of USA Taekwondo


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## Drose427

IcemanSK said:


> I'm sorry that I ca't answer either question. But it is called the USAT now, not USTA.
> 
> USA Taekwondo - Official Website of USA Taekwondo



ah...well, that shows how uneducated I am on it haha


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## terryl965

It was the A.A.U. prior to U.S.T.U and now U.S.A.T. I can say without a doubt Joe Rogan has never won the real U.S. Open held by the N.G.B. which stands for the National Governing Body for Olympic Tae Kwon Do. Joe Rogan won on the smaller stage and was doing point style sparring versus Olympic style. He was a good fighter but nothing on the great side of taekwondo. Hope that helps some what for you.


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## Brian R. VanCise

There we have it. Probably small to medium sized tournament and nothing more.  Certainly not Olympic level competition!


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## Buka

I have never met Joe Rogan. (I saw him a many times when he was a kid in my buddy's class, but he was just a kid in class and I was an adult and who the hell pays attention to kids if you aren't teaching them?) But I know some folks who've trained with him over the last twenty years in grappling. Joe knows the fight game, I don't think anyone can dispute that. And I know he can kick like a son of a *****.
He is skilled in grappling, very skilled and he has a long background in striking arts. I have no idea what he did or did not win in whatever striking competitions he was in and don't much care.

The one thing that folks tell me who've trained with him a lot, besides being very skilled, is that he's wicked strong. That weired kind of monkey strength that some people have that's just different from the rest of us.

I like Joe Rogan. I wish he was the color commentator on every single MMA fight that's on TV.


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## Drose427

Buka said:


> I have never met Joe Rogan. (I saw him a many times when he was a kid in my buddy's class, but he was just a kid in class and I was an adult and who the hell pays attention to kids if you aren't teaching them?) But I know some folks who've trained with him over the last twenty years in grappling. Joe knows the fight game, I don't think anyone can dispute that. And I know he can kick like a son of a *****.
> He is skilled in grappling, very skilled and he has a long background in striking arts. I have no idea what he did or did not win in whatever striking competitions he was in and don't much care.
> 
> The one thing that folks tell me who've trained with him a lot, besides being very skilled, is that he's wicked strong. That weired kind of monkey strength that some people have that's just different from the rest of us.
> 
> I like Joe Rogan. I wish he was the color commentator on every single MMA fight that's on TV.





Brian R. VanCise said:


> There we have it. Probably small to medium sized tournament and nothing more.  Certainly not Olympic level competition!





terryl965 said:


> It was the A.A.U. prior to U.S.T.U and now U.S.A.T. I can say without a doubt Joe Rogan has never won the real U.S. Open held by the N.G.B. which stands for the National Governing Body for Olympic Tae Kwon Do. Joe Rogan won on the smaller stage and was doing point style sparring versus Olympic style. He was a good fighter but nothing on the great side of taekwondo. Hope that helps some what for you.




Buka, without a doubt the guy is still an accomplished Martial Artist! He's put in many, many hours of BJJ and Muay Thai long after he quit TKD

And thanks everyone for the answers!


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## Buka

Drose427 said:


> Buka, without a doubt the guy is still an accomplished Martial Artist! He's put in many, many hours of BJJ and Muay Thai long after he quit TKD
> 
> And thanks everyone for the answers!



Joe Rogan's first training in Martial Arts was in Kenpo, at Joe Esposito's school in Newton Mass when we was a little kid. He trained there for a few years. 

At the weigh in at the UFC 118 in Boston in 2010, Rogan made a big deal and yelled to everyone, "This is the guy who started me in Martial Arts!" (Joe Esposito was one of the MMA commissioners in Mass at the time) It was really classy and Rogan was very excited to tell everyone. I always liked him for that.


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## Thousand Kicks

I have seen videos of Joe Rogan and there's no doubt that he is a talented martial artist.

My issue with him stems from an interview I saw where he claims after spending a lot of time training in sport style TKD he came to realize 2 things

1. There isn't a lot of money in TKD
2. After training with some kickoxers he realized his TKD training had not prepared him to defend his whole body

These are both valid points, but how is it he only came to realize this after years in TKD? There have been many threads on this board that say there's nothing wrong with sport TKD as long as you realize what you're getting into. Nobody should bash an art and call it useless or stupid because they can't do an honest self assessment.


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## Gwai Lo Dan

Thousand Kicks said:


> 2. After training with some kickoxers he realized his TKD training had not prepared him to defend his whole body
> 
> These are both valid points, but how is it he only came to realize this after years in TKD? There have been many threads on this board that say there's nothing wrong with sport TKD as long as you realize what you're getting into. Nobody should bash an art and call it useless or stupid because they can't do an honest self assessment.


I never saw him as bashing the art per se, but saying that a whole lot of suboptimal techniques are pushed over the more basic,effective techniques.  The suboptimal techniques may have a place, but they should be taught after the more effective basics.

I saw a clip where he talked about being criticized about his view of traditional martial arts.  Someone said, "What? You don't think a tiger claw to the face would hurt?", and he replied, "Of course it would, but so would an overhead right punch! I'm just saying the tiger claw isn't the best choice".

My critiique of KKW TKD is that all the kids don't realise the suitability of the drills / techniques. Why do we put hands on the chest during poomsae for instance? Why do the basic poomsae (taegueks 1-8) have all sorts of hand techniques, but no 1-2 punches (jab/cross) which is arguably the single most effective combination in all martial arts?  I love KKW TKD, but I think the part that is missing from most of the instruction is the bridge to reality.


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## Gwai Lo Dan

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Why do the basic poomsae (taegueks 1-8) have all sorts of hand techniques, but no 1-2 punches (jab/cross) which is arguably the single most effective combination in all martial arts?


I may have to take that part back - taegeuk pal jang (8) has a right/left punch after a kick & block, which is getting close to a jab /cross.


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## Gnarlie

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I may have to take that part back - taegeuk pal jang (8) has a right/left punch after a kick & block, which is getting close to a jab /cross.


Sam Jang, Sa Jang, and Pal Jang all have double punches, some lead leg first, some back leg first.


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## Gwai Lo Dan

Gnarlie said:


> Sam Jang, Sa Jang, and Pal Jang all have double punches, some lead leg first, some back leg first.


True. I forgot about the double punches in taegeuks 4&5, although I was thinking of taegeuk 4 when I posted, wondering, "when would I ever do a knife hand to the stomach as opposed to a punch?".


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## TrueJim

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> True. I forgot about the double punches in taegeuks 4&5, although I was thinking of taegeuk 4 when I posted, wondering, "when would I ever do a knife hand to the stomach as opposed to a punch?".



You mean the spearhand thrust at the beginning? Yah...I'm confused by the "to the stomach" part too.  I'm told the theory of the spearhand is that well...gosh darn-it...sometimes you just need 3-4 more inches of reach to strike to the target...which for a very-soft target like the throat _could_ theoretically make sense, I suppose.


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## Gnarlie

You might use it if you had trained it...




Just because it's defined as momtong doesn't necessarily mean the target has to be the solar plexus. Other targets might happen to find themselves at that height, or the strike height can be adjusted to find an eyeball / trachea / under the jawline cavity. Hmm I wonder what the supposed pressing block that precedes the fingertip strike might be doing? Perhaps manipulating a nice soft target into position.


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## TrueJim

Gnarlie said:


> You might use it if you had trained it...
> Just because it's defined as momtong doesn't necessarily mean the target has to be the solar plexus. Other targets might happen to find themselves at that height, or the strike height can be adjusted to find an eyeball / trachea / under the jawline cavity. Hmm I wonder what the supposed pressing block that precedes the fingertip strike might be doing? Perhaps manipulating a nice soft target into position.



Lee Kyu Hyung's ability to break using a spearhand is one of my favorite things to see on video. He is amazing.


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## Laplace_demon

Thousand Kicks said:


> I have seen videos of Joe Rogan and there's no doubt that he is a talented martial artist.
> 
> My issue with him stems from an interview I saw where he claims after spending a lot of time training in sport style TKD he came to realize 2 things



Joe Rogan did not bash "sport TKD". It's reported that Rogan was ITF trained by *GM Jae H. Kim *in Boston. That's what he ultimately bashed. And yes he has repeatedly done so. Questioning why anybody would train it anymore when a UFC fighter with TKD background enters, for instance, someone said he commented that.


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## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> It's reported that Rogan was ITF trained by *GM Jae H. Kim *in Boston.



The fact that Joe Rogan has said he was 'trying to get into the Olympics' and that he was his states full contact TKD champ (and you've claimed that ITF doesn't do full contact...) would argue against your statement being correct. 
Do you have some support for your claim?


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## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> The fact that Joe Rogan has said he was 'trying to get into the Olympics' and that he was his states full contact TKD champ (and you've claimed that ITF doesn't do full contact...) would argue against your statement being correct.
> Do you have some support for your claim?



He was brought up ITF, then tried to get into the olympics. To your other question: Those were not ITF competitions that he fought. It was American Taekwondo Federations, and yes they were indeed full contact.


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## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> He was brought up ITF, then tried to get into the olympics. To your other question: Those were not ITF competitions that he fought. It was American Taekwondo Federations, and yes they were indeed full contact.



You've not shown yourself to be a particularly reliable source, so I'm going to ask - again - for some support for your claims about his training, since you claim to know details.


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## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> You've not shown yourself to be a particularly reliable source, so I'm going to ask - again - for some support for your claims about his training, since you claim to know details.



From post  nr 13: Joe Rogan s TKD comment MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community _"Joe Rogan did not learn TKD from a McDojang. He studied under GM Jae H. Kim in Boston (also where I studied although at a different time). *JH Kim TKD Academy is an ITF style school, which is a lot less "sports" oriented that the WTF (Olympic) style*. We sparred frequently, but it was free sparring and not tournament or point sparring. From what I understand, Joe Rogan was a pretty bad-a$$ fighter. This is at least what I heard from one of my instructors who progressed through the ranks with Mr. Rogan. FWIW"._


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## Laplace_demon

Heres' the school. Note the following:

_The institute is especially well known in the Taekwon-do communities around the world for two of its *unique* *classes*. Anyone interested in Taekwon-do “Forms/Patterns” will be delighted to know that the school is recognized as a world leader in Traditional Forms. In fact, Mr. Kim is one of just a handful of active teachers left in the world who had the honor of receiving personal training from the acknowledged founder of Taekwon-do, General Choi. The other class is *called Full Range Sparring which utilizes striking as well as grappling techniques*. The school has been offering this training long before MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) became popular on TV.

Jae Hun Kim Taekwon-do Institute - Learn Tae Kwon Do Martial Arts Self Defense - Boston Quincy Cambridge Newton Ashland

_


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## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> From post  nr 13: Joe Rogan s TKD comment MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community _"Joe Rogan did not learn TKD from a McDojang. He studied under GM Jae H. Kim in Boston (also where I studied although at a different time). *JH Kim TKD Academy is an ITF style school, which is a lot less "sports" oriented that the WTF (Olympic) style*. We sparred frequently, but it was free sparring and not tournament or point sparring. From what I understand, Joe Rogan was a pretty bad-a$$ fighter. This is at least what I heard from one of my instructors who progressed through the ranks with Mr. Rogan. FWIW"._



Now see, this is one reason why it's important to actually investigate things, rather than just parroting things you see that happen to coincide with your preconceived notions of How Things Are.

According to site for GM Jae Hun Kims school, it would appear that GM Kim left the ITF in 1978, after which he spent some time with the GTF and then the Kukkiwon. There is no mention of the rank he held within the ITF, although he does mention having trained directly with General Choi, so I would assume he wasn't a yellow belt.

It seems unlikely that Mr Rogan would have been training and competing in the ITF under GM Kim, since he would have been 10 or 11 years old when GM Kim left the ITF.

According to the site linked above, students at this school are credentialed through the KKW.

Now, is it possible that GM Kim still teaches - at least in part - the ITF curriculum? I'd say it's very likely. Most teachers who have experience in multiple systems incorporate various aspects of all those systems in their teachings. I know I do, and I know from what others have posted here that they do as well.

But from what is on the schools site, it seems clear that if Mr Rogan trained at that school, he was, in fact, officially training in a KKW school.


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## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> Now see, this is one reason why it's important to actually investigate things, rather than just parroting things you see that happen to coincide with your preconceived notions of How Things Are.
> 
> According to site for GM Jae Hun Kims school, it would appear that GM Kim left the ITF in 1978, after which he spent some time with the GTF and then the Kukkiwon. There is no mention of the rank he held within the ITF, although he does mention having trained directly with General Choi, so I would assume he wasn't a yellow belt.
> 
> It seems unlikely that Mr Rogan would have been training and competing in the ITF under GM Kim, since he would have been 10 or 11 years old when GM Kim left the ITF.
> 
> According to the site linked above, students at this school are credentialed through the KKW.
> 
> Now, is it possible that GM Kim still teaches - at least in part - the ITF curriculum? I'd say it's very likely. Most teachers who have experience in multiple systems incorporate various aspects of all those systems in their teachings. I know I do, and I know from what others have posted here that they do as well.
> 
> But from what is on the schools site, it seems clear that if Mr Rogan trained at that school, he was, in fact, officially training in a KKW school.



That is interesting. I would be very curious to know which patterns they were graded in, then. The gentleman I quoted did write _ITF-style,_ which is another way of saying functionally ITF (patterns), but not ITF affiliated. So if that's the case, he was simply wrong in saying so. This is quite comical, given that it would entail that he was confused about which type of TKD school he personally belonged to.


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## Laplace_demon

I also question why a KKW school is labelled Taekwon-Do, instead of Taekwondo...


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## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> That is interesting. I would be very curious to know which patterns they were graded in, then. The gentleman I quoted did write _ITF-style,_ which is another way of saying functionally ITF (patterns), but not ITF affiliated. So if that's the case, he was simply wrong in saying so. This is quite comical, given that it would entail that he was confused about which type of TKD school he personally belonged to.



It's amazing how confused people get some times...



Laplace_demon said:


> I also question why a KKW school is labelled Taekwon-Do, instead of Taekwondo...



Our MDK school uses Tae Kwon Do, Taekwondo and Taekwon-Do interchangeably. All are correct, after all.


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## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> It's amazing how confused people get some times...
> 
> 
> 
> Our MDK school uses Tae Kwon Do, Taekwondo and Taekwon-Do interchangeably. All are correct, after all.



I was under the impression that the seperation Taekwondo and Taekwon-Do existed to clarify, distinguish and avoid confusion between different systems/styles of TKD. I gather this is not followed then, regrettably. Very unhelpful.


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## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> I was under the impression that the seperation Taekwondo and Taekwon-Do existed to clarify, distinguish and avoid confusion between different systems/styles of TKD. I gather this is not followed then, regrettably. Very unhelpful.


Taekwon-Do generally indicates an ITF background, but many people from different backgrounds use Taekwondo, tae kwon do, Tae Kwon Do, or possibly other spellings that would likely be considered incorrect.


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## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> I was under the impression that the seperation Taekwondo and Taekwon-Do existed to clarify, distinguish and avoid confusion between different systems/styles of TKD. I gather this is not followed then, regrettably. Very unhelpful.



There are things that are common to specific systems - like Taekwon-Do for the ITF - that are not unique to those systems. The ITF most commonly uses the word "tul" to refer to forms, but the terms hyung and poomsae are equally valid. I'm likely to use any or all of them in any given week.


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## andyjeffries

Dirty Dog said:


> Our MDK school uses Tae Kwon Do, Taekwondo and Taekwon-Do interchangeably. All are correct, after all.



Actually, in the WTF magazine in the 80s they posted an article saying that the correct romanisation (at least from the WTF's point of view) is Taekwondo and specifically saying it's incorrect to use spaces or hyphens.

_Edit: Credit to the late Grandmaster Al Cole for the uploaded page from WTF Magazine_


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## Laplace_demon

Why would the founder of ITF - General Choi, support Master Kims opening of a KKW school?  Choi is also recognized as the founding father/creator of TKD on the schools website, which a KKW school normally wouldn't. Makes no sense.


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## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> Taekwon-Do generally indicates an ITF background



Yes, ITF or  ITF offshoots*. *There are quite a number of ITF style schools.


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## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> There are things that are common to specific systems - like Taekwon-Do for the ITF - that are not unique to those systems. The ITF most commonly uses the word "tul" to refer to forms, but the terms hyung and poomsae are equally valid. I'm likely to use any or all of them in any given week.



Go to a hardcore KKW school and ask them about their tul. Expect their eyes to pop out.


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## Dirty Dog

andyjeffries said:


> Actually, in the WTF magazine in the 80s they posted an article saying that the correct romanisation (at least from the WTF's point of view) is Taekwondo and specifically saying it's incorrect to use spaces or hyphens.
> 
> _Edit: Credit to the late Grandmaster Al Cole for the uploaded page from WTF Magazine_



The WTF does not determine how words are spelled. They can say "x will be spelled y in our publications", but that doesn't really have any impact on the world at large.



Laplace_demon said:


> Why would the founder of ITF - General Choi, support Master Kims opening of a KKW school?  Choi is also recognized as the founding father/creator of TKD on the schools website, which a KKW school normally wouldn't. Makes no sense.



Perhaps you missed the part where GM Kim left the ITF in 1978? Beyond that, you'll have to ask GM Kim or the General. I only repeated what it says on the web site, which is that students are certified by the KKW.



Laplace_demon said:


> Go to a hardcore KKW school and ask them about their tul. Expect their eyes to pop out.



I live within 50 miles of the Olympic Training Center. I know people who work there. I know people who train there. I use the terms interchangeably (as is correct). To date, all eyes have remained firmly within their sockets.


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## Gnarlie

I would say the schools I have attended have been pretty much straight up KKW TKD. I know plenty of people including myself who practice hyungs / tul along with poomsae. Not everything has to be black or white, and the spirit of Taekwondo is inclusive.

Re Joe Rogan, he's a great fighter but also kind of unlikeable IMO, especially his 'stand up comedy'. Watching some of his Taekwondo related stuff online, his form is not that great from a pure TKD perspective, but maybe he has adapted it for MMA, who knows.


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## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> Perhaps you missed the part where GM Kim left the ITF in 1978? Beyond that, you'll have to ask GM Kim or the General. I only repeated what it says on the web site, which is that students are certified by the KKW.



Key word is "left". It's one thing to start your own, than to open a KKW affiliated school. I wrote that it makes no sense why he would receive Chois support for doing this, not that it wasn't true.



Gnarlie said:


> I would say the schools I have attended have been pretty much straight up KKW TKD. I know plenty of people including myself who practice hyungs / tul along with poomsae. Not everything has to be black or white, and the spirit of Taekwondo is inclusive.



Then you are doing both tul and poomsae. I wrote hardcore KKW school.



Gnarlie said:


> Watching some of his Taekwondo related stuff online, his form is not that great from a pure TKD perspective, but maybe he has adapted it for MMA, who knows.



He's better than your average joe (get it?).


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## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Then you are doing both Tul and pomsae. I wrote hardcore KKW school.
> 
> 
> 
> He's better than your average joe (get it?).



It doesn't get much more KKW without training at the KKW...we just don't exclude people


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## RTKDCMB

Dirty Dog said:


> Beyond that, you'll have to ask GM Kim or the General.


It might be a bit hard to ask the General these days.


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## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> Key word is "left". It's one thing to start your own, than to open a KKW affiliated school. I wrote that it makes no sense why he would receive Chois support for doing this, not that it wasn't true.



I'm just going to guess that this "support" is yet another thing you've pulled out of a random bodily orifice.

GM Kim opened a school. Students of that school are certified by the KKW. General Choi didn't really have any say in the matter.



Laplace_demon said:


> Then you are doing both tul and poomsae. I wrote hardcore KKW school.



Tul and poomsae are the same thing. You do know what synonyms are, right?



RTKDCMB said:


> It might be a bit hard to ask the General these days.



Given some of the other silliness posted recently, I thought maybe a Ouija board would come into play.


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## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> It doesn't get much more KKW without training at the KKW...we just don't exclude people



Why would a *hardcore* KKW school train in both KKW and Chang-Hon patterns? I have not heard of  a Shotokan school mixing in kyokushin patterns (for instance). Have you? It must be very confusing for the students.




Dirty Dog said:


> I'm just going to guess that this "support" is yet another thing you've pulled out of a random bodily orifice.
> 
> GM Kim opened a school. Students of that school are certified by the KKW. General Choi didn't really have any say in the matter.



General Choi encouraged him to do so: "_Mr. Kim visited General Choi periodically to receive personal instruction, *until 1978*. It was also during this period that Mr. Kim, with *the encouragement of General Choi*, opened his school in Boston."Jae Hun Kim Taekwon-do Institute Boston Quincy Cambridge Newton Ashland _




Dirty Dog said:


> Tul and poomsae are the same thing. You do know what synonyms are, right?



You are mindboggingly stubborn.


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## Laplace_demon

He may be a juiced up TKD basher, but whoever says this guy isn't good, don't know anything about kicking.


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## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Why would a *hardcore* KKW school train in both KKW and Chang-Hon patterns?



Because we believe in the tenets of Taekwondo, and therefore encourage unity rather than separatism.



Laplace_demon said:


> I have not heard of  a Shotokan school mixing in kyokushin patterns (for instance). Have you?



What has that got to do with the price of fish? Taekwondo is Taekwondo.



Laplace_demon said:


> It must be very confusing for the students.



Not really, new students learn the KKW forms, transfers in continue to learn Tul or Hyungs alongside the KKW forms if they wish. Blackbelts learn both if they wish, or just the KKW forms. It's pretty straightforward really.


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## Steve

Laplace-demon, what's the difference between a softcore KKW school and a hardcore KKW school?  And I realize this reads like the set up to a punchline, but it's a genuine question.  I don't train in TKD and am having trouble understanding the emphasis you're placing on the term, "hardcore."    What makes a school hardcore?


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## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> He may be a juiced up TKD basher, but whoever says this guy isn't good, don't know anything about kicking.



Maybe someone observing less than great Taekwondo form there just sees a bit more than you do because they have a frame of reference worlds apart from your own.

Or maybe I do know nothing about kicking.

Both are possible. This is the interweb, after all.


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## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> Because we believe in the tenets of Taekwondo, and therefore encourage unity rather than separatism.
> 
> 
> 
> What has that got to do with the price of fish? Taekwondo is Taekwondo.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really, new students learn the KKW forms, transfers in continue to learn Tul or Hyungs alongside the KKW forms if they wish. Blackbelts learn both if they wish, or just the KKW forms. It's pretty straightforward really.



I did not know that. How about techniques extracted outside of patterns, that is to say training in kicks and strikes. How does your school decide which style of TKD to adhere to and give instructions in? I know there is some dispute about this, but fairly experienced black belts in ITF would argue that KKW techniques are different, body mechanics included.



Steve said:


> Laplace-demon, what's the difference between a softcore KKW school and a hardcore KKW school?  And I realize this reads like the set up to a punchline, but it's a genuine question.  I don't train in TKD and am having trouble understanding the emphasis you're placing on the term, "hardcore."    What makes a school hardcore?




A hardcore school proclaims unique adherence to a specific style: "This is real TKD!" (yes I have heard it been said), disregard and rejects other styles in some way shape or form. The exact opposite of Gnarlies approach. I think hardcore attitudes are silly, but they do posses a certain charm. These schools all live in their own bubble, so to speak. I am far too intelligent to buy into any of it. There are pros and cons with every style/ system of TKD.


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## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> I did not know that. How about techniques extracted outside of patterns, that is to say training in kicks and strikes. How does your school decide which style of TKD to adhere to and give instructions in? I know there is some dispute about this, but fairly experienced black belts in ITF would argue that KKW techniques are different, body mechanics included.



We train the KKW mechanics, and where there are significant differences, they are accepted too - especially if they work well. Generally the KKW mechanic is preferred as we have a majority of KKW practitioners, and it's fairly easy to learn the Hyungs / Tul with the KKW mechanics.  They are not that different in my view, but then again my first instructor's master began TKD before these orgs existed, so we have trained every mechanic going at some point. 

Incidentally, there's not really such a thing as a hardcore KKW school in my experience - exclusion is at least not mandated by the Kukkiwon, quite the opposite, so if such claims are made then it is at the behest of the individual instructor, and probably BS.


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## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> A hardcore school proclaims unique adherence to a specific style: "This is real TKD!" (yes I have heard it been said), disregard and rejects other styles in some way shape or form. The exact opposite of Gnarlies approach. I think hardcore attitudes are silly, but they do posses a certain charm. These schools all live in their own bubble, so to speak. I am far too intelligent to buy into any of it. There are pros and cons with every style/ system of TKD.



Given that the KKW itself doesn't endorse any such attitude, but advocates inclusiveness, I don't know where you get the idea that someone espousing this idea is "hardcore KKW".


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> Maybe someone observing less than great Taekwondo form there just sees a bit more than you do because they have a frame of reference worlds apart from your own.
> 
> Or maybe I do know nothing about kicking.
> 
> Both are possible. This is the interweb, after all.



Georges St Pierre: Joe Rogan has the best spinning back kick he's ever seen






I wouldn't go that far, but Rogan is good, no question about it.

I would like to see any random black belt from a TKD school kick that fast, technical, and hard at the same time. Some of his kicks are clearly better than others.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> Given that the KKW itself doesn't endorse any such attitude, but advocates inclusiveness, I don't know where you get the idea that someone espousing this idea is "hardcore KKW".



I am reporting what certain school representatives say. What higher "officals" of the KKW ( I don't know what you mean by the KKW "itself" promotes is a different matter. I don't recall the KKW school I trained for ever mentioning the ITF, to be honest. But we basically trained and didn't chat with the instructors at all. To be clear, nobody has openly bashed the KKW in my ITF school (they actually refer to them all as WTF, which is incorrect). But that's not to say that they don't distinguish themselves from the KKW, they most certainly do.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> I am reporting what certain school representatives say



Then you should cite who is saying what, you can't just make a random statement like that and expect it to be treated seriously.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> Then you should cite who is saying what, you can't just make a random statement like that and expect it to be treated seriously.



Yes I can. This isn't court. I can most certainly cite people comments without giving out their names. If you don't believe it, then so be it. And I have already stated that it's childish. Even my own father has bashed Taekwon-do, and he was once among the very best in a Karate style. I hit him and asked him to block (if our blocks were so inferior) which offended him greatly. This stuff goes on.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Georges St Pierre: Joe Rogan has the best spinning back kick he's ever seen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't go that far, but Rogan is good, no question about it.
> 
> I would like to see any random black belt from a TKD school kick that fast, technical, and hard at the same time. Some of his kicks are clearly better than others.



Random black belts might have less than great form. Joe has less than great form. Not bad, just less than great. Choose your role models carefully, and maybe one day you might be able to see why, without having to rely on GSP to give you an opinion


----------



## Drose427

Gnarlie said:


> Random black belts might have less than great form. Joe has less than great form. Not bad, just less than great. Choose your role models carefully, and maybe one day you might be able to see why, without having to rely on GSP to give you an opinion



Rogans roundhouse form is off too, but in fairness, thats probably from years of MT after leaving TKD


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> Yes I can. This isn't court. I can most certainly cite people comments without giving out their names.



Well, in that case it won't be surprising if no one believes you will it? You won't have any credibility here either if you make statements without citations but if you don't want to be taken seriously...
If your father, a karateka, was style bashing then shame on him, it's not something to boast about. Hitting one's father is nothing to boast about either, no wonder he was offended.


----------



## Gnarlie

Drose427 said:


> Rogans roundhouse form is off too, but in fairness, thats probably from years of MT after leaving TKD



Yeah, I only mean from a pure TKD perspective, he may well have consciously adapted his kicking for MMA.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> Yeah, I only mean from a pure TKD perspective, he may well have consciously adapted his kicking for MMA.



I would take his suboptimal form everyday of the week for that power upon impact. And my roundhouses are among the hardest in my club. I actually go Muay Thai style with them against mitts, and disregard form (intentionally).


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> I would take his suboptimal form everyday of the week for that power upon impact. And my roundhouses are among the hardest in my club.I actually go Muay Thai style with them against mitts, and disregard form (intentionally).



Proper form is important for power, for all styles 

The longer you train the more youll realize that.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Drose427 said:


> Proper form is important for power, for all styles
> 
> The longer you train the more youll realize that.



There are people with excellent form who don't even come close to his power, and then there are some that do. If it were a forced choice and I had to pick his power or perfect form, then I would take the former, easily. That's what I meant.


----------



## Orange Lightning

Laplace_demon said:


> Yes I can. This isn't court. I can most certainly cite people comments without giving out their names. If you don't believe it, then so be it. And I have already stated that it's childish. Even my own father has bashed Taekwon-do, and he was once among the very best in a Karate style. I hit him and asked him to block (if our blocks were so inferior) which offended him greatly. This stuff goes on.



This certainly isn't court. You _can_ say you heard such and such from some person or school or organization. But unless it's widely known fact, citing the real source would definitely be preferable. Especially when people disagree with you. Otherwise, it will be heard as your interpretation or paraphrase of what another entity said.  It's a lot easier to debate with facts or the opinion's of entities that can be verified. If something is indeed fact, then it's beyond contestation.  Most debate is concerning people's opinions _about_ facts, and not what is or isn't fact. Your argument is way stronger when you can prove it or have cited sources. Particularly in the world of martial arts, there is a lot of misinformation followed by disagreement It further obfuscates the truth, and makes meaningful discussion more difficult. Honestly, if it isn't about something scientific, debating what is or isn't fact can usually be done away with research and sources. 
You don't *have* to. But if you think something should be taken as fact, you should. Otherwise, you're assuming that someone else will take something you said as fact, or that they should, even though they are aware of the possibility that it may not be. You're doing a disservice to someone if you ask them to assume something you say is fact. It only creates a possibility for misinformation to occur. Not everything needs to be proven fact to make your point. Nor does everything need to _be_ fact. But if you expect people to take it as fact, you should let the facts represent themselves.

Additionally, in the art of debate, I would also avoid using personal anecdotes as _universal _fact. It may be fact or popular opinion for you and people you know, but not everyone. You're asking for someone to disagree if you state something as an _absolute_, especially if it's *opinion.* This applies even if you're totally right about what you said. I think Joe Rogan has some awesome kicking too. But I'm not going to tell people they're wrong for saying otherwise. I *am* going to ask them to show me some better kicking, and why they don't think his kicking might be so great.
Another example is "childish". What you consider childish is bound to be different than other peoples' view.

Another thing you don't have to do, but would be great, is to be polite when you're debating. Even if the other person deserves to see some mud slewed at them, it keeps the debate cleaner and prevents more conversations from becoming pointless arguments where walls yell at each other. Especially on the internet, where you don't get people's expressions or voice inflection.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Laplace_demon said:


> ........_ In fact, Mr. Kim is one of just a handful of active teachers left in the world who had the honor of receiving personal training from the acknowledged founder of Taekwon-do, General Choi. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> Jae Hun Kim Taekwon-do Institute - Learn Tae Kwon Do Martial Arts Self Defense - Boston Quincy Cambridge Newton Ashland
> _




Large amount of exageration here.   There are literaly hundred, if not thousands of active teachers in the world  who in all likelyhood spent more classroom time with General Choi than  JH Kim.


----------



## Orange Lightning

Earl Weiss said:


> Large amount of exageration here.   There are literaly hundred, if not thousands of active teachers in the world  who in all likelyhood spent more classroom time with General Choi than  JH Kim.



Compared to whole world, a "few" could be interpreted as hundreds or thousands couldn't it?  Not really, compared to other "handful" examples like this. 
Fortunately, they don't specify any range of numbers, so they can't technically be wrong. Even if it could potentially be shameless promoting.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Laplace_demon said:


> Georges St Pierre: Joe Rogan has the best spinning back kick he's ever seen



Maybe he needs to get out more? 



Laplace_demon said:


> I would like to see any random black belt from a TKD school kick that fast, technical, and hard at the same time.



I see it quite often.



Gnarlie said:


> Random black belts might have less than great form. Joe has less than great form. Not bad, just less than great.



His back kick had a little too much spin to it,  ore like a spinning side kick than a back kick.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> I would take his suboptimal form everyday of the week for that power upon impact. And my roundhouses are among the hardest in my club. I actually go Muay Thai style with them against mitts, and disregard form (intentionally).



Pfft. That suboptimal form is telegraphed in such a way that it can be pretty easily evaded, and the clumsy off balance landing post kick is an open invitation. Kick as hard as you like, it means nothing if you can't hit the opponent and less if you get kicked in the face while floundering afterwards. 

Additionally, you choose to ignore your instructor and use a MT style kick because you think you know better than an 8th dan. That poor form practice will cost you in the long term. Your kicks will be slow and your recovery too. 

And at yellow belt too. A full cup if I ever saw one. 



Drose427 said:


> Proper form is important for power, for all styles
> 
> The longer you train the more youll realize that.


Well put. 


Laplace_demon said:


> There are people with excellent form who don't even come close to his power, and then there are some that do. If it were a forced choice and I had to pick his power or perfect form, then I would take the former, easily. That's what I meant.


There are people with excellent form who generate way more power and speed than this. I see them every day. I'm talking about people like the ones Joe learned these kicks from. As I said earlier, choose your role models carefully. 

These are also people who consciously trade off power against form to avoid telegraphing. 

I generate similar impact with about two thirds his body weight. I would expect much more from such a heavy set guy. 



RTKDCMB said:


> Maybe he needs to get out more?
> 
> 
> 
> I see it quite often.
> 
> 
> 
> His back kick had a little too much spin to it,  ore like a spinning side kick than a back kick.


Well put.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> There are people with excellent form *who generate way more power* and speed than this. I see them every day. I'm talking about people like the ones Joe learned these kicks from. As I said earlier, choose your role models carefully.
> 
> These are also people who *consciously trade off power against form *to avoid telegraphing.



You are contradicting yourself with the two statements cited. It's very dangerous to kick with compromised power IMO. There are TKD fighters who won't do any damage, yet posses beautiful kicking abilities. I don't concider them effective fighters. It may very well be that Joe is not a great fighter. There are, after all, lots of factors that go into it that have nothing to do with strikes and kicks.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> You are contradicting yourself with the two statements cited. It's very dangerous to kick with compromised power IMO. There are TKD fighters who won't do any damage, yet posses beautiful kicking abilities. I don't concider them effective fighters. It may very well be that Joe is not a great fighter. There are, after all, lots of factors that go into it that have nothing to do with strikes and kicks.



I mean they trade off a little of their potential power to eliminate telegraphing, and even then the final product is more powerful than the kicks in that video.

Every kick is a compromise of power and balance. Otherwise you overcommit and get trounced in the recovery phase. Clearly you are early on your journey, these are pretty basic ideas.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Earl Weiss said:


> Large amount of exageration here.   There are literaly hundred, if not thousands of active teachers in the world  *who in all likelyhood spent more classroom time with General Choi than  JH Kim*.



How do you know how much training JH Kim received?

Topic: How do you rate Rogan, based on the video I posted?


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> You are contradicting yourself with the two statements cited. It's very dangerous to kick with compromised power IMO. There are TKD fighters who won't do any damage, yet posses beautiful kicking abilities. I don't concider them effective fighters. It may very well be that Joe is not a great fighter. There are, after all, lots of factors that go into it that have nothing to do with strikes and kicks.



And many times, the TKD guy with beautiful technique is pulling kicks to not hurt his sparring partner. Its a simple matter of not going through the target. Its nearly completely the choice of the kicker.


----------



## Gnarlie

Especially noticeable in that video is the late timing of the 360 roundhouse. By the time he kicks, he is already out of the power phase of the spin, leading to a loss of power, a wasted spin, and a more telegraphed, slower motion.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> Especially noticeable in that video is the late timing of the 360 roundhouse. By the time he kicks, he is already out of the power phase of the spin, leading to a loss of power, a wasted spin, and a more telegraphed, slower motion.



Agreed. His tornado was not particularly impressive. I don't think he's trained it much since his TKD days, though.


----------



## Earl Weiss

↑
Large amount of exageration here. There are literaly hundred, if not thousands of active teachers in the world who in all likelyhood spent more classroom time with General Choi than JH Kim.



Orange Lightning said:


> Compared to whole world, a "few" could be interpreted as hundreds or thousands couldn't it?  Not really, compared to other "handful" examples like this.
> Fortunately, they don't specify any range of numbers, so they can't technically be wrong. Even if it could potentially be shameless promoting.



This hits a nerve with me. Certainly "Handful" is a metaphor because you can't hold any people in your hand.   I just hate it when instructors claim to have been taught by General Choi for marketing purposes yet would not see him during the last decades of his life, and in reality the instruction they received from him was nominal compared to thousands who trained under him during instructor courses throughout the world in thelate 1980's throught 2002.

So you are validating my comment? "Large exageration".

No technical issues.  "Handful denotes a small number"

handful - definition of handful by The Free Dictionary


----------



## Laplace_demon

Earl Weiss said:


> ↑
> I just hate it when instructors claim to have been taught by General Choi for marketing purposes yet would not see him during the last decades of his life, and in reality the instruction they received from him was nominal compared to thousands who trained under him during instructor courses throughout the world in thelate 1980's throught 2002.



How is it relevant if they did not see him during the last decades of his life? You have yet to respond how you are in a position to speak of how much training GM Kim received. Do you know GM Kim?


----------



## Earl Weiss

Laplace_demon said:


> How do you know how much training JH Kim received?
> 
> Topic: How do you rate Rogan, based on the video I posted?



I know how much time General Choi instructing Pioneers prior to 1978. Very Little compared to when he started doing instructor courses in the late 1980's.  Further, as time progressed General Choi was able to spend more time with refinements and less on major issues.  (Saw this myself at courses from 1990-2002.)  People who competed on a world wide stage would often comment on how there was a remarkeable conformity to technical standards throughout the world during this time. 

FWIW I have been on the training floor with such Piioneers as Nam Tae Hi (Hosted him) Han Cha Kyo, (At one of his schools)  and Jong Soo Park.   All had lots to offer. However, claiming that they were conveying pattern knowledge as thjey were taught by general Choi was not one of them. 

There is another instructor in Chicago teaching here since the 1960's and was the US importer for the 1965 book.  He actulay came to see General Choi when he was here. He later invited me to his school to teach patterns. 

I like Joe Rogan's technique. I think it unfair to look at how someone kicks a bag and say "they telegraph" or whatever.  Frankly, I do not know how he would spar. I do know I kick the bag different ways depending on what I am trying to develop.  For instance I will neglect defensive posturing and not care about hand positions if I am working on power techniques for breaking.   I may negelct power if working on hand positions and follow ups for sparring. etc.   In fact I often teach that you should concentrate on different elements at different times and then conbine that focus for different applications as needed.   Boxers aren't criticised for hitting a speed bag or heavy bag in a manner different than they spar, so I don't know why a martial artist shoucl face such criticism.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Laplace_demon said:


> How is it relevant if they did not see him during the last decades of his life? You have yet to respond how you are in a position to speak of how much training GM Kim received. Do you know GM Kim?




It's relevant becuase they would refuse to see him yet still use his name for PR.  

If they wanted to claim instruction it would have been a simple matter for them to attend official courses. 

Keep in mind:
A. You're time is 7 hours ahead of me; and
B. I may not be sitting at the keyboard waiting to respond to your posts.


----------



## Earl Weiss

From GM Kims website:
. >>After a brief review of forms, General Choi invited Mr. Kim to receive personal training from him, from then on. This was the greatest honor for a Taekwon-do practitioner, as General Choi taught only a handful of instructors in his home. Mr. Kim visited General Choi periodically to receive personal instruction, until 1978<<

So. perhaps the better full quote would have been: >>>General Choi taught only a handful of instructors in his home.<<<

Further, I have trained with at least 2 instructors who trained with General Choi in his home.  As described to me those sessions were usualy somewhat brief.   To GM Kim's credit, from the site is his association with GM Park Jung Tae   (The full extent of which is not known from the site.)  That GM Park was the instructor who General Choi chose to teach IICs before him and who was dispatched to train the North Koreans.  GM Kim certainly could have learned a lot from him.


----------



## Gnarlie

Earl Weiss said:


> I like Joe Rogan's technique. I think it unfair to look at how someone kicks a bag and say "they telegraph" or whatever.  Frankly, I do not know how he would spar. I do know I kick the bag different ways depending on what I am trying to develop.  For instance I will neglect defensive posturing and not care about hand positions if I am working on power techniques for breaking.   I may negelct power if working on hand positions and follow ups for sparring. etc.   In fact I often teach that you should concentrate on different elements at different times and then conbine that focus for different applications as needed.   Boxers aren't criticised for hitting a speed bag or heavy bag in a manner different than they spar, so I don't know why a martial artist shoucl face such criticism.



I agree, I am only offering this critical view as that video was being held up as  some kind of particularly great example, which I don't think it is, whichever discipline is being trained for. There's nothing exceptional there, was my point, and that Laplace wasn't seeing it that way.


----------



## TrueJim

This is slightly off-topic, but since we're talking about _kicking power_, I thought I'd point to this video...most of you have probably seen it already though.






There are some fairly obvious inaccuracies in the video (Simon Rhee? Representing _karate_?) but I think it's still entertaining to watch.


----------



## Steve

Drose427 said:


> And many times, the TKD guy with beautiful technique is pulling kicks to not hurt his sparring partner. Its a simple matter of not going through the target. Its nearly completely the choice of the kicker.


I don't know good technique from bad, but this sparked a memory.  Back in the olympics a few times ago... not sure which one, but I suspect you guys will remember.  There was a TKD guy who got mad.  He was really hot with the ref about a bad call and ended up roundhouse kicking him in the head.  What struck me as funny at the time is that he didn't seem to hurt the ref at all.  I mean, this was a clean kick to the side of the ref's head.  It really seemed that this elite level TKD guy was so accustomed to pulling his kicks that he was unable to kick with any power.  It really seemed at the time like he had trained himself to kick WITHOUT power.

Edit:  This guy: http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer08/judo/news/story?id=3549903


----------



## Dirty Dog

Steve said:


> I don't know good technique from bad, but this sparked a memory.  Back in the olympics a few times ago... not sure which one, but I suspect you guys will remember.  There was a TKD guy who got mad.  He was really hot with the ref about a bad call and ended up roundhouse kicking him in the head.  What struck me as funny at the time is that he didn't seem to hurt the ref at all.  I mean, this was a clean kick to the side of the ref's head.  It really seemed that this elite level TKD guy was so accustomed to pulling his kicks that he was unable to kick with any power.  It really seemed at the time like he had trained himself to kick WITHOUT power.
> 
> Edit:  This guy: http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer08/judo/news/story?id=3549903



It was a front leg kick, which will always have less power than a rear leg. Think of it as a jab. How many people have you seen knocked out with a single jab?
The ref was staggered, and did require stitches, so it wasn't exactly a love tap.


----------



## Gnarlie

Dirty Dog said:


> It was a front leg kick, which will always have less power than a rear leg. Think of it as a jab. How many people have you seen knocked out with a single jab?
> The ref was staggered, and did require stitches, so it wasn't exactly a love tap.


Also, he was the representative of Cuba. Elite level in Cuba may mean something different to elite level in Europe and the USA. Nothing against Cuba, but they probably don't have the same funding and training programs as the bigger countries. Or the same talent pool. It was not a great kick, it was thrown in a moment of emotion, and it was certainly not fitting behaviour for an Olympic representative, especially not a Taekwondoin. Currently residing in the 'where are they now' file.


----------



## Steve

Yeah, okay guys.  I don't know.  He was winning the match up to that point, so he couldn't be that bad.  I can't watch the video right now, but my memory is that it didn't even look like it hurt the ref at all.  I don't recall anyone being staggered.  I do reacll that he was surprised and shocked.  But not hurt.  It was a kick to the head.  A jab by an olympic boxer would probably hurt like hell, whether it knocks you out or not.  I just remember my immediate reaction, in real time, was thinking how funny it was that this guy couldn't even kick with intent when he was acting on pure, aggressive emotion.  It's an object lesson that we will truly fight how we train.

Regarding stitches, that doesn't mean much to me.  Who hasn't had a few stitches from some stupid, meaningless cut?  Particularly a busted lip.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> I agree, I am only offering this critical view as that video was being held up as  some kind of particularly great example, which I don't think it is, whichever discipline is being trained for. There's nothing exceptional there, was my point, and that Laplace wasn't seeing it that way.








The guy is talented. You can get away with aloth in TKD competitions, so Rogan might still be a terrible K1 fighter. But think of having such a weapon...


----------



## Orange Lightning

Earl Weiss said:


> ↑
> Large amount of exageration here. There are literaly hundred, if not thousands of active teachers in the world who in all likelyhood spent more classroom time with General Choi than JH Kim.
> 
> 
> 
> This hits a nerve with me. Certainly "Handful" is a metaphor because you can't hold any people in your hand.   I just hate it when instructors claim to have been taught by General Choi for marketing purposes yet would not see him during the last decades of his life, and in reality the instruction they received from him was nominal compared to thousands who trained under him during instructor courses throughout the world in thelate 1980's throught 2002.
> 
> So you are validating my comment? "Large exageration".
> 
> No technical issues.  "Handful denotes a small number"
> 
> handful - definition of handful by The Free Dictionary



I'm sort of validating your comment. Kind of. 
xD I know what handful means. 
"Small" is a subjective word. It only has meaning compared to the norm. There are some 7 billion people in the world. There are a lot of martial artists, and a lot of teachers. The point was that, to the source, "a handful" could really be a handful compared to the tens of thousands who have trained with or near other famous people. 
They could not know at all how many people actually trained with General Choi, or how many are alive today, but still not be technically wrong by saying "a few". As long as the amount of people that trained with him was comparatively low to other examples (hypothetically, I don't know the real numbers - people or trained with Bruce Lee or Mas Oyama, or how many TKDers they're are compared to the amount that have trained with General Choi.), he could always call it  a "small" amount of people and not be wrong.

In all likelihood, yeah, it's just shameless marketing. Or they could just be uninformed, or even _right_, but accidentally misleading with their phrasing.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Orange Lightning said:


> I'm sort of validating your comment. Kind of.
> xD I know what handful means.
> "Small" is a subjective word. It only has meaning compared to the norm. There are some 7 billion people in the world. There are a lot of martial artists, and a lot of teachers. The point was that, to the source, "a handful" could really be a handful compared to the tens of thousands who have trained with or near other famous people.
> They could not know at all how many people actually trained with General Choi, or how many are alive today, but still not be technically wrong by saying "a few". As long as the amount of people that trained with him was comparatively low to other examples (hypothetically, I don't know the real numbers - people or trained with Bruce Lee or Mas Oyama, or how many TKDers they're are compared to the amount that have trained with General Choi.), he could always call it  a "small" amount of people and not be wrong.
> 
> In all likelihood, yeah, it's just shameless marketing. Or they could just be uninformed, or even _right_, but accidentally misleading with their phrasing.



GM Kim received personal instruction. That would make him a student of General Choi, and one of very few. Choi lecturing groups of instructors is not equivalent.


----------



## Orange Lightning

Laplace_demon said:


> GM Kim received personal instruction. That would make him a student of General Choi, and one of very few. Choi lecturing groups of instructors is not equivalent.



I'm not disagreeing with you dude. I didn't even take a side on the matter. I was only commenting on the phrasing of the source you posted.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> You can get away with aloth in TKD competitions



What does that mean? You think TKD competitions are easy?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> What does that mean? You think TKD competitions are easy?



Compared to K1 and kickboxing, yes. Not even comparable. Aloth of TKD guys, even in ITF, can rely on their kicks and good footwork to do the job. In a kickboxing or K1 arena, their weaknesses will get exposed.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> Compared to K1 and kickboxing, yes. Not even comparable. Aloth of TKD guys, even in ITF, can rely on their kicks and good footwork to do the job. In a kickboxing or K1 arena, their weaknesses will get exposed.




Well, no, not really. I think you need to stop generalising and tarring everyone with the same brush...unless of course you have seen every single TKDist fight and train? And of course seen every kick boxer going. It gets tiresome when you constantly disrespect people from TKD based on very little evidence. You don't have to style bash.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> The guy is talented. You can get away with aloth in TKD competitions



No, you really can't, if your opponent is any good. His oppo came forward with nothing and walked into what is a pretty standard response against someone who comes forward with nothing.



Laplace_demon said:


> , so Rogan might still be a terrible K1 fighter.



Premise is flawed so that does not follow.



Laplace_demon said:


> But think of having such a weapon...



I do have such a weapon. Most 2nd or 3rd dans have such a weapon, but I am particularly known for my back kick. It's sort of my trademark kick, the one that people are worried about...because it doesn't telegraph.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> Well, no, not really. I think you need to stop generalising and tarring everyone with the same brush...unless of course you have seen every single TKDist fight and train? And of course seen every kick boxer going. It gets tiresome when you constantly disrespect people from TKD based on very little evidence. You don't have to style bash.



Or you accept the empirical fact that even highly skilled TKD guys stay with TKD competitions for a reason more often than not. And the current top of striking being dominated by MT fighters. It would be a radical adjustment for the TKD guy, a minor leap for the MT fighter.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> *Or you accept the empirical fact* that even highly skilled TKD guys stay with TKD competitions for a reason more often than not. And the current top of strikers being dominated by MT fighters. It would be a radical adjustment for the TKD guy, a minor leap for the MT fighter.




Please cite that evidence.

Also who are you considering 'the top of strikers'? In what competition?

Why would it be a radical adjustment for TKDists?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> I do have such a weapon. Most 2nd or 3rd dans have such a weapon, but I am particularly known for my back kick. It's sort of my trademark kick, the one that people are worried about...because it doesn't telegraph.



Mike Tyson telegraphed heavily, yet was fast enough to knock them out could. You can't judge a practioner based on one factor alone.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Compared to K1 and kickboxing, yes. Not even comparable. Aloth of TKD guys, even in ITF, can rely on their kicks and good footwork to do the job. In a kickboxing or K1 arena, their weaknesses will get exposed.



Why don't you try sparring contact ITF or WTF style and see which of your weaknesses get exposed?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> Please cite that evidence.



I don't need to cite the lack of succesful TKD fighters in K1.



Tez3 said:


> Why would it be a radical adjustment for TKDists?



Because our rules are different, there's more padding, and the MT and Kickboxers are trained to take hits at full contact constantly, more parts of the body as well. TKD guys are not. This is fairly trivial.


----------



## Tez3

Sooooo who is going to tell this TKD guy that he can't kick box for peanuts?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> Why don't you try sparring contact ITF or WTF style and see which of your weaknesses get exposed?



How do you know I haven't? I am stronger at sparring than patterns. I don't have plans to compete, though.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Mike Tyson telegraphed heavily, yet was fast enough to knock them out could. You can't judge a practioner based on one factor alone.



No, you can't, but when a kick is heavy and slow enough to see coming, with accompanying hand and body movement 'tells' way in advance of the actual kicking motion, then it is poor form from a TKD perspective. That is my point here - that Joe is not a great example.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't need to cite the lack of succesful TKD fighters in K1.
> 
> 
> 
> Because our rules are different, there's more padding, and the MT and Kickboxers are trained to take hits at full contact constantly, more parts of the body as well. TKD guys are not. This is fairly trivial.




You don't have to of course but if you don't it just looks like you are making it up which of course you aren't...much.

Oh padding of course, why didn't I think of that.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> How do you know I haven't? I am stronger at sparring than patterns. I don't have plans to compete, though.



You said you didn't want to box or kickbox because it was full contact. And frankly, even if you have sparred contact at yellow belt, that ain't much of an experience of what it's really about.


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> Or you accept the empirical fact that even highly skilled TKD guys stay with TKD competitions for a reason more often than not. And the current top of strikers being dominated by MT fighters. It would be a radical adjustment for the TKD guy, a minor leap for the MT fighter.



Thats just innacurate..

In UFC, the top strikers tend to come from tkd or Karate......
just to name a few here,

Spider Silva TKD
Ben Henderson TKD
Anthony Pettis TKD
Cung le (retired) TKD
Machida Karate
GSP Karate
Lidell American Karate
Bas Rutten Both i believe
Chan Sung Jung TKD


All very regularly and blatantly fought similar to their respective styles. Ben and Lidell moved away the most and its still very prominent.

The only change any TKD guys have to make is more of a squared stance and a higher guard, assuming they dont already.


----------



## Tez3

Oh look another TKD person in K1


----------



## Drose427

Tez3 said:


> You don't have to of course but if you don't it just looks like you are making it up which of course you aren't...much.
> 
> Oh padding of course, why didn't I think of that.



Clearly he has sparred Kukki tkd, where they break ribs through chest protectors......break noses, and frequently get kos..


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> You don't have to of course but if you don't it just looks like you are making it up which of course you aren't...much.
> 
> Oh padding of course, why didn't I think of that.



An exceptional TKD fighter can beat up a MT/Kickboxer. That's not really speaking in favour of my art, is it?

How many people are exceptional? What does exceptional entail?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> Oh look another TKD person in K1



Serkan Yilmaz carrier was short lived. Keep on cherry picking.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> An exceptional TKD fighter can beat up a MT/Kickboxer. That's not really speaking in favour of my art, is it?
> 
> How many people are exceptional? What does exceptional entail?




Here's a question for you...where do you think kick boxing originated from? I'm not talking about Muay Thai but K1.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> Here's a question for you...where do you think kick boxing originated from? I'm not talking about Muay Thai but K1.



Karate


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> Serkan Yilmaz carrier was short lived. Keep on cherry picking.



So there are cherries to be picked then? I thought you said no TKD could do kick boxing?


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> Karate




Karate is a generic term, provide more details and don't cherry pick.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> So there are cherries to be picked then? I thought you said no TKD could do kick boxing?



Show me where I said that. Serkan was not world class. Even your cherry picking is weak.




Tez3 said:


> Karate is a generic term, provide more details and don't cherry pick.



Kyokushin.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Or you accept the empirical fact that even highly skilled TKD guys stay with TKD competitions for a reason more often than not. And the current top of striking being dominated by MT fighters. It would be a radical adjustment for the TKD guy, a minor leap for the MT fighter.



Top flight TKDin stay with TKD because they, uh, love Taekwondo. That's how they become elite. They are funded, Taekwondo pays their wages, and they get to do what they love, and be successful at it. There's very little to draw someone away from such an attractive lifestyle.

You jump to the wrong conclusion.


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> Show me where I said that. Serkan was not world class. Even your cherry picking is weak.
> 
> What about all the MMA strikers i listed? Were they weak too?
> 
> 
> 
> Kyokushin.



and no not really.

It come from a myriad of Karate/TSD\TKD.

Bill wallace was TSD i believe which is pretty similar in sparring to ITF, Benny the Jet was Karate, Corley was TSD and TKD. I believe emilio Narvaez was TKD as well....


----------



## Gnarlie

Tez3 said:


> Oh look another TKD person in K1



Yilmaz is great to watch. Not hugely successful but man, just entertaining as all hell.


----------



## Drose427

Gnarlie said:


> Top flight TKDin stay with TKD because they, uh, love Taekwondo. That's how they become elite. They are funded, Taekwondo pays their wages, and they get to do what they love, and be successful at it. There's very little to draw someone away from such an attractive lifestyle.
> 
> You jump to the wrong conclusion.




Yup, the same reason many kickboxers and World class Judoka and BJJers  dont go to MMA.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> An exceptional TKD fighter can beat up a MT/Kickboxer. That's not really speaking in favour of my art, is it?
> 
> How many people are exceptional? What does exceptional entail?



A TKD player isn't really interested in 'beating people up'.


----------



## Gnarlie

Drose427 said:


> Yup, the same reason many kickboxers and World class Judoka and BJJers  dont go to MMA.



In fact, quite the opposite now, players from other arts transfer to TKD based on the potential funding and reward opportunities it offers. An athlete would be a fool to give it up and fight for individual purses.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> Or you accept the empirical fact that even highly skilled TKD guys stay with TKD competitions for a reason more often than not. And the current top of striking being dominated by MT fighters. It would be a radical adjustment for the TKD guy, a minor leap for the MT fighter.



You're just making stuff up as you go along, aren't you?
You claim your father was 'one of the top karateka' in the world. And yet, he didn't train you. That's odd. 
You've also claimed that he couldn't block a strike you threw. That's also odd.
You claim to be training under a very qualified instructor. And call his school a McDojo. That's also odd.
You claim to have better kicks than the black belts in your school, but don't post a video to prove it. That would be odd, if you actually believed your claim.

Come on. Be honest. You're just trolling, aren't you?


----------



## Gnarlie

Funny that TKDin don't go into other styles but a lot of MMAers have been to TKD to learn summa dem fancy kicks...hmmm


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> Show me where I said that. Serkan was not world class. Even your cherry picking is weak.
> 
> 
> 
> _
> Kyokushin_.




Are you arguing with yourself here? Your answers don't match the questions.

_Kyokushin_.  Nope.


----------



## Gnarlie

Dirty Dog said:


> You're just making stuff up as you go along, aren't you?
> You claim your father was 'one of the top karateka' in the world. And yet, he didn't train you. That's odd.



Hmm, I think in Poppas position, I might have made the same decision. Not that odd maybe...


----------



## Tez3

Gnarlie said:


> Yilmaz is great to watch. Not hugely successful but man, just entertaining as all hell.



He did a lot better than some I could name lol. Always better to do than boast.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Gnarlie said:


> Hmm, I think in Poppas position, I might have made the same decision. Not that odd maybe...



If memory serves (I'd have to check back through the thread to be certain) he has claimed, at various times, to the the offspring of "world class" boxer, wrestler, and karateka.


----------



## Gnarlie

Dirty Dog said:


> If memory serves (I'd have to check back through the thread to be certain) he has claimed, at various times, to the the offspring of "world class" boxer, wrestler, and karateka.



Ooh a threesome! Oh you mean all the same person. I see. Does being the offspring of a world class martial artist confer some kind of special skills I might not be aware of?


----------



## Tez3

Dirty Dog said:


> If memory serves (I'd have to check back through the thread to be certain) he has claimed, at various times, to the the offspring of "world class" boxer, wrestler, and karateka.




So that's his mum what about his dad?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> You're just making stuff up as you go along, aren't you?
> You claim your father was 'one of the top karateka' in the world. And yet, he didn't train you. That's odd.
> You've also claimed that he couldn't block a strike you threw. That's also odd.
> You claim to be training under a very qualified instructor. And call his school a McDojo. That's also odd.
> You claim to have better kicks than the black belts in your school, but don't post a video to prove it. That would be odd, if you actually believed your claim.
> 
> Come on. Be honest. You're just trolling, aren't you?



Gosh, how many incorrect statements can be made at once. My father was absent, instead dedicating his life to Karate. My mother did not intend on keeping me ( I wasn't planned). She changed her mind at the clinic. I don't care about either one of those things, but you asked.

I told my father that I would hit him and asked how he would block, and he showed one alternative. He was offended, since it's like asking a mathematican: what's 1+1? ( my analogy, not his) He says that at the level he's reached, it's not about techniques anymore, regardless if he's attacked. Specific technique application is robotic and for students ( paraphrasing ) he's above that...

Remember that Joe Rogans kickboxing record is 1-1. Think about that. Don't be accidentally shooting yourself in the foot, proclaiming him to be a great figher (in TKD), and then arguing that it translates to being a great fighter.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Remember that Joe Rogans kickboxing record is 1-1. Think about that. Don't be accidentally shooting yourself in the foot, proclaiming him to be a great figher (in TKD), and then arguing that it translates to being a great fighter.



I don't think anyone here is saying that. Straw man, anyone?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> I don't think anyone here is saying that. Straw man, anyone?



Just a heads up. Think about it. He's talented and got crushed in kickboxing. I don't think he's the best in TKD, but he is talented.


----------



## Gnarlie

A win and a loss is hardly crushed. And anyway success post transfer would depend very much on training in between and the luck of the draw.


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> Gosh, how many incorrect statements can be made at once. My father was absent, instead dedicating his life to Karate. My mother did not intend on keeping me ( I wasn't planned). She changed her mind at the clinic. I don't care about either one of those things, but you asked.
> 
> I told my father that I would hit him and asked how he would block, and he showed one alternative. He was offended, since it's like asking a mathematican: what's 1+1? ( my analogy, not his) He says that at the level he's reached, it's not about techniques anymore, regardless if he's attacked. Specific technique application is robotic and for students ( paraphrasing ) he's above that...
> 
> Remember that Joe Rogans kickboxing record is 1-1. Think about that. Don't be accidentally shooting yourself in the foot, proclaiming him to be a great figher (in TKD), and then arguing that it translates to being a great fighter.



The only person blowing smoke up Joe Rogan was you.....to the rest of us he was a normal black belt. He won a local associations tourney, he wasnt a National level competitior..

You still havent responded to all the examples I gave of highly successful TKD guys in the UFC,

Cung Le was undefeated in Kickboxing Fighting like a kukki TKD practitioner.

All the other guys i mentioned from tkd have held belts, blatantly fighting as tkd guys..


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> A win and a loss is hardly crushed.



He was crushed when entering a kickboxing class. He ended up transitioning to kickboxing.


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> He was crushed when entering a kickboxing class. He ended up transitioning to kickboxing.



That say a lot about Joe, not TKD.

Many, Many, people have used TKD very successfully in Full contact ring sports.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> He was crushed when entering a kickboxing class. He ended up transitioning to kickboxing.



Maybe because his individual school hadn't worked the hand tchniques, maybe because his hand techs weren't up to much. Lot of variables there, and an isolated case is pretty meaningless.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Drose427 said:


> The only person blowing smoke up Joe Rogan was you.....to the rest of us he was a normal black belt. He won a local associations tourney, he wasnt a National level competitior..



I don't know how long he was an active TKD fighter. Reports indicate, as I've shown, that he was a very promising figher. He is not a normal black belt by any means.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> Maybe because his individual school hadn't worked the hand tchniques, maybe because his hand techs weren't up to much. Lot of variables there, and an isolated case is pretty meaningless.



Haha, yeah, his instructor GM Jae H Kim is probably a noob.


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't know how long he was an active TKD fighter. Reports indicate, as I've shown, that he was a very promising figher. He is not a normal black belt by any means.



maybe in his own association he was promising

but as you said, he couldnt spar with kickboxers, which many other TKD BB's are able to do just fine

He also was not competing on the national level or state level with the Ustu/usat. 

I wouldnt consider him some TKD prodigy by any stretch of the imagination.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't know how long he was an active TKD fighter. Reports indicate, as I've shown, that he was a very promising figher. He is not a normal black belt by any means.



Nothing that you have shown illustrates anything beyond what I would consider normal dan grade ability for KKW TKD. Then again, I have sought out good role models.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Haha, yeah, his instructor GM Jae H Kim is probably a noob.



Not what I meant and rather disrespectful. Some schools focus on sport sparring, especially in dedicated athletic programs. A athlete in such a school would not waste time developing hand techniques that aren't allowed in the sport they want to compete in.

Flip side of that is that some individuals prefer to focus exclusively on kicking even where hand techs and other stuff is taught.


----------



## Drose427

Gnarlie said:


> Not what I meant and rather disrespectful. Some schools focus on sport sparring, especially in dedicated athletic programs. A athlete in such a school would not waste time developing hand techniques that aren't allowed in the sport they want to compete in.
> 
> Flip side of that is that some individuals prefer to focus exclusively on kicking even where hand techs and other stuff is taught.



Plus, many of us adapt to our opponents.

Im by far a kicker in my training hall but when sparring my MMA/Boxing friends, I throw considerably more pucnhes and am more mindful of combinations and kicks.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> *Not what I meant and rather disrespectful*. Some schools focus on sport sparring, especially in dedicated athletic programs. A athlete in such a school would not waste time developing hand techniques that aren't allowed in the sport they want to compete in.
> 
> Flip side of that is that some individuals prefer to focus exclusively on kicking even where hand techs and other stuff is taught.



I was being sarcastic and countering your argument..... Rogans school was not sport oriented. Scroll to the first pages for evidence of this from a former student.


----------



## Steve

Drose427 said:


> Thats just innacurate..
> 
> In UFC, the top strikers tend to come from tkd or Karate......
> just to name a few here,
> 
> Spider Silva TKD
> Ben Henderson TKD
> Anthony Pettis TKD
> Cung le (retired) TKD
> Machida Karate
> GSP Karate
> Lidell American Karate
> Bas Rutten Both i believe
> Chan Sung Jung TKD
> 
> 
> All very regularly and blatantly fought similar to their respective styles. Ben and Lidell moved away the most and its still very prominent.
> 
> The only change any TKD guys have to make is more of a squared stance and a higher guard, assuming they dont already.


 Whoa, whoa, whoa!  Hold the phone.  I don't think this is true.  Anderson Silva is an accomplished striker in MT, Western Boxing and pretty much anything else he wants.  Machida is a karate guy who cross trains liberally, but you can see the base.  The rest, including GSP, may have trained in a style, but cross trained to such a degree that you can't attribute any one style to their success.  There are some top tier strikers from many arts in the UFC.  Saying that "the top strikers tend to come from TKD or Karate" just isn't true.  Some may come from those styles, but there are many, many more top tier western boxers and muay thai fighters in the UFC than there are Karate or TKD.   Shoot, Cung Le was a Sanshou guy... kung fu.  Pettis has been boxing as long as he's been training TKD and has also trained as a kickboxer. 

This is in no way an idictment against either of those arts.  It's just about what is and isn't.  We have seen enough talented strikers from TKD and karate to establish that if a guy wants to train for MMA and puts in the time, they can be just as successful as anyone else.  But the most common formulas for high level success in MMA are some combination of boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, and wrestling.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> Even my own father has bashed Taekwon-do, and he was once among the very best in a Karate style. I hit him and asked him to block (if our blocks were so inferior) which offended him greatly.





Laplace_demon said:


> I told my father that I would hit him and asked how he would block, and he showed one alternative. He was offended, since it's like asking a mathematican: what's 1+1? ( my analogy, not his)



These two statements certainly paint completely different pictures of what you claim happened. Which is correct?

"But I am the son of a karateka prodigy, who was once in the top 3."

And this prodigy whose progeny you are would be?

" I have relatives in both Boxing and Karate at world class levels. I am the son of one of them."

And these amazing people are?

I do seem to have misremembered; I do not find (in a cursory check) a reference to a wrestler. 

I think I'm probably not the only one who has noticed that when you claimed to kick better than the black belts in your school, while refusing to post a video of yourself kicking so we can see if there's any truth to the claim.

You make a lot of grandiose claims. It would be nice to see you provide some support for them. Even one of them would be a nice start.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Steve said:


> We have seen enough talented strikers from TKD and karate to establish that if a guy wants to train for MMA and puts in the time, they can be just as successful as anyone else.  But the most common formulas for high level success in MMA are some combination of boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, and wrestling.



It's the training format, not the arts fault.  TKD is a classic martial arts system with crisp techniques.

TKD is burdened with counterproductive rule sets for developing fighters.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> I was being sarcastic and countering your argument..... Rogans school was not sport oriented. Scroll to the first pages for evidence of this from a former student.



Then it is on him.


----------



## Steve

Laplace_demon said:


> It's the training format, not the arts fault.  TKD is a classic martial arts style with crisp techniques.
> 
> TKD is burdened with counterproductive rule sets for developing fighters.


It's about goals and desired results.  We've had conversations along these lines in the past.  Someone interested in the UFC isn't likely to find their way into an Aikido dojo, for example.  The path and the goal have to be congruent.  People who train in TKD sometimes want to fight in MMA.  We've seen enough to know that if they're smart and talented, and willing to cross train, TKD can be a fine base for MMA. But, more often, those who train in TKD just aren't intersted in that.

Correlation doesn't imply causation.  There are many reasons having nothing to do with efficacy that TKD isn't as well represetnted in MMA as Muay Thai.

Now, I agree that a training format is important and can lead to issues.  I truly do believe that the cuban TKD'ist in the heat of the moment pulled his kick involuntarily as a result of his training.  But, dude, you're all over the board here making claims that just can't be supported trying to stir the pot and you're skirting the edge of style bashing, which isn't okay.


----------



## Drose427

Steve said:


> Whoa, whoa, whoa!  Hold the phone.  I don't think this is true.  Anderson Silva is an accomplished striker in MT, Western Boxing and pretty much anything else he wants.  Machida is a karate guy who cross trains liberally, but you can see the base.  The rest, including GSP, may have trained in a style, but cross trained to such a degree that you can't attribute any one style to their success.  There are some top tier strikers from many arts in the UFC.  Saying that "the top strikers tend to come from TKD or Karate" just isn't true.  Some may come from those styles, but there are many, many more top tier western boxers and muay thai fighters in the UFC than there are Karate or TKD.   Shoot, Cung Le was a Sanshou guy... kung fu.  Pettis has been boxing as long as he's been training TKD and has also trained as a kickboxer.
> 
> This is in no way an indictment against either of those arts.  It's just about what is and isn't.  We have seen enough talented strikers from TKD and karate to establish that if a guy wants to train for MMA and puts in the time, they can be just as successful as anyone else.  But the most common formulas for high level success in MMA are some combination of boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, and wrestling.



For all the TKD guys you can blatantly see the TKD, its not difficult. Henderson moved away from it the most, but its still obviously there. Cung Le was successful in TKD before Sanshou, long before Sanshou. And fought in the UFC as if he was competing in a Kukki event.

The biggest reason MT BJJ Boxing and Wrestling are the most common is because why should someone dedicate themselves to a 3-5 year BB that entails things they dont need for the ring, such as forms and huge amounts of time spent of philosophy and SD drills instead of choosing something meant for the ring where nearly everything they do is in preparation of that.

All the fighters i mentioned have very obvious Karate and TKD bases, and were extremely successful with it in modern MMA. I also previously mentioned  kick boxers who were successful from those styles in the early days of kickboxing.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Steve said:


> It's about goals and desired results.  We've had conversations along these lines in the past.  Someone interested in the UFC isn't likely to find their way into an Aikido dojo, for example.  The path and the goal have to be congruent.  People who train in TKD sometimes want to fight in MMA.  We've seen enough to know that if they're smart and talented, and willing to cross train, TKD can be a fine base for MMA. But, more often, those who train in TKD just aren't intersted in that.
> 
> Correlation doesn't imply causation.  There are many reasons beyond efficacy that TKD isn't as well represetnted in MMA as Muay Thai.
> 
> Now, I agree that a training format is important and can lead to issues.  I truly do believe that the cuban TKD'ist in the heat of the moment pulled his kick involuntarily as a result of his training.  But, dude, you're all over the board here making claims that just can't be supported trying to stir the pot and you're skirting the edge of style bashing, which isn't okay.



 Rule sets are not intrinsic to a martial art, and is therefore not style bashing. It is not what makes the martial art. Techniques are.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> It's the training format, not the arts fault.  TKD is a classic martial arts system with crisp techniques.
> 
> TKD is burdened with counterproductive rule sets for developing fighters.



No, it isn't. It develops fighting skills just fine. It just doesn't develop MMA or kickboxing fighters, which makes sense, because you don't take tennis lessons to become a rock star.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Rule sets are not intrinsic to a martial art, and is therefore not style bashing. It is not what makes the martial art. Techniques are.



That statement, right there, is illuminating.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> No, it isn't. It develops fighting skills just fine. It just doesn't develop MMA or kickboxing fighters, which makes sense, because you don't take tennis lessons to become a rock star.



 A MT fighter is used to full contact and is likely to take hits better at all forms of fighting, making him a better equipped fighter.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> A MT fighter is used to full contact and is likely to take hits better at all forms of fighting, making him a better equipped fighter.


 You know WTF sparring is full contact, right?


----------



## Steve

Drose427 said:


> For all the TKD guys you can blatantly see the TKD, its not difficult. Henderson moved away from it the most, but its still obviously there. Cung Le was successful in TKD before Sanshou, long before Sanshou. And fought in the UFC as if he was competing in a Kukki event.
> 
> The biggest reason MT BJJ Boxing and Wrestling are the most common is because why should someone dedicate themselves to a 3-5 year BB that entails things they dont need for the ring, such as forms and huge amounts of time spent of philosophy and SD drills instead of choosing something meant for the ring where nearly everything they do is in preparation of that.
> 
> All the fighters i mentioned have very obvious Karate and TKD bases, and were extremely successful with it in modern MMA. I also previously mentioned  kick boxers who were successful from those styles in the early days of kickboxing.


Drose, let's be clear.  You asserted that "The top strikers in the UFC tend to come from TKD or Karate."  This isn't true, although we can surely acknowledge that there are SOME quality strikers who have trained in TKD and/or Karate.  And also, to be clear, not every one of those fighters you mention had a base that was strictly TKD or Karate.  Pettis, for example, trained as a boxer for as long as he trained in TKD.  One could just as easily say that his base is western boxing and ignore the TKD. 

I think that there are a LOT of reasons that MT, BJJ, Boxing and Wrestling are the most common elements within MMA, but I'm not sure the extra bits are among them.  Most of the BJJ practitioners train in a gi and train techniques that are unsuitable for MMA in addition to no-gi submission wrestling.  Not every boxing technique or Muay Thai technique is suitable for MMA.  Different rules, different tactics.


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> A MT fighter is used to full contact and is likely to take hits better at all forms of fighting, making him a better equipped fighter.



Kukki TKD _is _ full contact. 

They eat kicks to the face and stand there with a broken nose like nothing happened...


----------



## Steve

Laplace_demon said:


> Rule sets are not intrinsic to a martial art, and is therefore not style bashing. It is not what makes the martial art. Techniques are.


Frankly, style bashing is whatever the moderators think it is.  I'm trying to help you out.  I've been around here long enough to know that what you're doing is riding very close to (if not over) the line.  Take this as friendly advice.


----------



## Drose427

Steve said:


> Drose, let's be clear.  You asserted that "The top strikers in the UFC tend to come from TKD or Karate."  This isn't true, although we can surely acknowledge that there are SOME quality strikers who have trained in TKD and/or Karate.  And also, to be clear, not every one of those fighters you mention had a base that was strictly TKD or Karate.  Pettis, for example, trained as a boxer for as long as he trained in TKD.  One could just as easily say that his base is western boxing and ignore the TKD.
> 
> I think that there are a LOT of reasons that MT, BJJ, Boxing and Wrestling are the most common elements within MMA, but I'm not sure the extra bits are among them.  Most of the BJJ practitioners train in a gi and train techniques that are unsuitable for MMA in addition to no-gi submission wrestling.  Not every boxing technique or Muay Thai technique is suitable for MMA.  Different rules, different tactics.



But you _cant_ ignore their karate/tkd base, because its blatantly there in how they fight. They dont let you forget it. Its integral to their fighting style.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> You know WTF sparring is full contact, right?



They are padded, don't allow low kicks, no punches to the face etc. You won't be wawing your feet against each other in a real confrontation.


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> They are padded, don't allow low kicks, no punches to the face etc. You won't be wawing your feet against each other in a real confrontation.



They hardly "waw" their feet at each other...you really should watch more. These guys do just as much damage to each other as MT guys _through_ chest protectors.

Im pretty sure if you can take a jack back pivot to the face and fight like nothing happened, you can take a punch.....


----------



## Steve

Drose427 said:


> But you _cant_ ignore their karate/tkd base, because its blatantly there in how they fight. They dont let you forget it. Its integral to their fighting style.


 AND it is still not true that most of the top strikers in the UFC have a TKD or Karate base.  I'm sorry if I'm not being clear.  You overstated your position.  I would say that VERY FEW of the top strikers in the UFC have a TKD or Karate base, ALTHOUGH, we can surely acknowledge that some of the very best have trained in one or both of these Martial Arts.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> Rule sets are not intrinsic to a martial art, and is therefore not style bashing. It is not what makes the martial art. Techniques are.



Your first statement is actually correct. Congratulations! Good job!

Your next displays, sadly, the sort of extremely limited and incorrect understanding of TKD and the martial arts in general that I'd expect from someone with your extremely limited, incomplete and largely incorrect knowledge and training.

It's not that I don't expect to hear things like that from yellow belts. I do. Not infrequently. It's just that most of the ones I hear it from - even the 7 or 8 year old kids - are far more teachable. They actually _*know*_ that they have a lot to learn.


----------



## Drose427

Steve said:


> AND it is still not true that most of the top strikers in the UFC have a TKD or Karate base.  I'm sorry if I'm not being clear.  You overstated your position.  I would say that VERY FEW of the top strikers in the UFC have a TKD or Karate base, ALTHOUGH, we can surely acknowledge that some of the very best have trained in one or both of these Martial Arts.


The Greatest MMA Strikers of All Time Tapology MMA Rankings

Heres a rough list. Not all UFC but roughly half in the top 10 come from Karate/TKD.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Drose427 said:


> You still havent responded to all the examples I gave of highly successful TKD guys in the UFC,
> 
> Cung Le was undefeated in Kickboxing Fighting like a kukki TKD practitioner.



He was trained in kickboxing as well.


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> He was trained in kickboxing as well.


Yes, he trained in sanshou. But he very obviously fought like a kukki TKD guy in the UFC, and kickboxing, He was one of the most prominent TKD guys out there, his TKD base was extremely obvious.


----------



## Steve

Drose427 said:


> The Greatest MMA Strikers of All Time Tapology MMA Rankings
> 
> Heres a rough list. Not all UFC but roughly half in the top 10 come from Karate/TKD.


Dude.  Come on.    You can't claim Anderson Silva.  He trained in TKD for a year or two before taking up Muay Thai at 16. 

I don't have a lot of time to go through the entire top 100, but scanning the rest, it might be true that many took TKD lessons as an adolescent.  Really, who hasn't?  But, once again, there is little here to suggest that "most' of these guys or even half can claim TKD or Karate as a base for their elite level MMA careers.  Some, sure.  But half?  Most?  Seriously.  Take the rose colored glasses off for a few minutes. 

In the top 10, you have 2:  Cro Cop, Machida and maybe... maybe Chuck Liddell if you're extremely generous with your definition of the term Karate.  That makes 1 TKD guy and 1 (maybe 2) Karate guys.  A far cry from "most' and not really very close to half.


----------



## Drose427

Steve said:


> Dude.  Come on.    You can't claim Anderson Silva.  He trained in TKD for a year or two before taking up Muay Thai at 16.
> 
> I don't have a lot of time to go through the entire top 100, but scanning the rest, it might be true that many took TKD lessons as an adolescent.  Really, who hasn't?  But, once again, there is little here to suggest that "most' of these guys or even half can claim TKD or Karate as a base for their elite level MMA careers.  Some, sure.  But half?  Most?  Seriously.  Take the rose colored glasses off for a few minutes.
> 
> In the top 10, you have 2:  Cro Cop, Machida and maybe... maybe Chuck Liddell if you're extremely generous with your definition of the term Karate.  That makes 1 TKD guy and 1 (maybe 2) Karate guys.  A far cry from "most' and not really very close to half.



Silva uses a good bit of blatant TKD....His front kick is picture perfect TKD, and he frequently uses a TKD double roundhouse straight out of the Kukki Handbook.

You also forgot Belfort,

if you bump out Emelianko for pettis ( as emilianko never fought ufc) you get

Pettis
Belfort
Machida
Cro Crop

who all were dedicated to TKD and Karate

4 wihtout a doubt in the top ten, SIlva who blatantly uses Kukki TKD, and Lidell which is American Karate, would actually set the Majority of the top ten.

On down the list you get more who blatantly use TKD and Karate as a big part of their fighting style,

GSP, 
Cung Le
Bas
Lawler
Cheick Congo


Nearly all of which are huge names in the UFC.

Even with cross training, claiming you cant sayTKD and Karate isnt prominent in high level fighters when you can see it in how they fight.

Its like claiming an NCAA wrestling champ is only a successful grappler in the UFC because hes a brown belt in BJJ,


----------



## Drose427

Drose427 said:


> Silva uses a good bit of blatant TKD....His front kick is picture perfect TKD, and he frequently uses a TKD double roundhouse straight out of the Kukki Handbook.
> 
> You also forgot Belfort,
> 
> if you bump out Emelianko for pettis ( as emilianko never fought ufc) you get
> 
> Pettis
> Belfort
> Machida
> Cro Crop
> 
> who all were dedicated to TKD and Karate
> 
> 4 wihtout a doubt in the top ten, SIlva who blatantly uses Kukki TKD, and Lidell which is American Karate, would actually set the Majority of the top ten.
> 
> On down the list you get more who blatantly use TKD and Karate as a big part of their fighting style,
> 
> GSP,
> Cung Le
> Bas
> Lawler
> Cheick Congo
> 
> 
> Nearly all of which are huge names in the UFC.
> 
> Even with cross training, claiming you cant sayTKD and Karate isnt prominent in high level fighters when you can see it in how they fight.
> 
> Its like claiming an NCAA wrestling champ is only a successful grappler in the UFC because hes a brown belt in BJJ,



Silva still thinks pretty highly of TKD considering he regularly trains it...im not sure how you cant count him...














pretty dedicated TKD guy


----------



## TrueJim

Laplace_demon said:


> They are padded, don't allow low kicks, no punches to the face etc. You won't be wawing your feet against each other in a real confrontation.



To be fair though, by comparison, *boxers* have rules too: they aren't allowed to hit below the belt, aren't allowed to hold, push, or throw, and they wear gloves. I would still consider boxing to be a _full-contact_ martial art though. 
*
MMA* doesn't allow head-butts, groin attacks, downward elbow strikes, strikes to the spine, strikes to the back of the head, or strikes to the throat. I would still consider MMA to be_ full-contact_ though.

*Wrestling* doesn't allow leg attacks, full nelsons, head scissors, back bows, headlocks, forceful trips, finger pulling, etc. I would still consider wrestling to be _full-contact_ though.

Heck even sport *shooting* has rules. You can't just walk up the target and pull the trigger, the way you could in a real-world gunfight. And don't even get me started about *fencing*!!! 

My point is, just because a sport has _rules_, that doesn't mean it's not a full contact sport. Heck, even *Fight Club* has rules. 







But also, just as importantly, I think we have to be careful about confusing the rules of _sport-competition_ with the kind of _training_ provided in that style. Like, just because a boxer can't hit below the belt in a ring, that doesn't mean he wouldn't do so in a street-fight. Likewise, just because you can't kick a knee in WTF sparring, that doesn't mean you wouldn't kick in a knee in a real fight.

Admittedly WTF sparring rules are designed to "give a good show" to the audience, but that's true for other sports like...basketball and football as well. Audiences like to see high spinning kicks: it makes WTF taekwondo more watchable for general audiences. But that's the same reason we have a shot-clock in basketball, to make the sport more watchable. 

At the end of the day, WTF sparring isn't intended to mirror a real-world bar-fight any more than Greco-Roman wrestling is, but that doesn't mean that training in wrestling (or taekwondo) wouldn't be useful in a real-world fight. Admittedly, you could argue that some styles prepare you for a "real fight" more than other styles do, but even _that_ is just one factor among many. I think I could make a good case that size, speed, strength, and stamina are FAR more important in a real-world fight than _style_ is. Like...an out-of-shape boxer would probably get his butt kicked by a very fit kung fu guy every time, but that's not because of the kung fu. Personally, my opinion is, when it comes to most real-world fights, the major benefit of any martial art is really the _conditioning_ it provides, more than the technique it teaches (but I can see why some people would disagree with me on that). It seems to me that no matter what the style, if you train hard, you're going to be in better shape, and that's what's primarily going to provide you an advantage in a fight, I think. But I don't have a lot of experience in real-world fights, so...I could be wrong. Maybe some body who frequently fights in bars would have more insight.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Drose427 said:


> Silva still thinks pretty highly of TKD considering he regularly trains it...im not sure how you cant count him...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pretty dedicated TKD guy


I understand he has taekwondo in his background, but if that's all the TKD he's got, he probably should avoid the Olympics.


----------



## Drose427

Jaeimseu said:


> I understand he has taekwondo in his background, but if that's all the TKD he's got, he probably should avoid the Olympics.



Yeah.....its nice he has a goal at least!


----------



## Jaeimseu

Drose427 said:


> Kukki TKD _is _ full contact.
> 
> They eat kicks to the face and stand there with a broken nose like nothing happened...


I'm a Kukki Taekwondo guy, but that's a bit of an exaggeration. Nobody eats full contact kicks to the face and just stands there. 

Kukkiwon taekwondo is, in theory, full contact. However, with the new rules in place awarding points for simply touching the head, the game has been changed. These days many players look like sport-karate point fighters minus the flying backfists to the head. Too many players are surfing in on one leg and throwing out prayers hoping to get three points. Admittedly, scores are higher, but in my opinion they've taken things too far. It was harder to score in the days of "trembling shock," but it was definitely full contact.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Laplace_demon said:


> Or you accept the empirical fact that even highly skilled TKD guys stay with TKD competitions for a reason more often than not.



It could have something to do with the fact that they, i don't know, LIKE competing in TKD competitions.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't know how long he was an active TKD fighter. Reports indicate, as I've shown, that he was a very promising figher. He is not a normal black belt by any means.


I remember watching an interview with Joe Rogan where he said his TKD training was useless.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Laplace_demon said:


> A MT fighter is used to full contact and is likely to take hits better at all forms of fighting, making him a better equipped fighter.


Fighters who make it a point to be able to take hits well also sometimes have a tendency to sacrifice some defensive ability because they believe they can just trade blows and absorb hits without getting hurt, a tactic that does not serve you well in a self defense situation.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Like Jaeimseu already pointed out, WTF sparring is in practice point fighting for most of the time. I've seen my fair share of WTF fights to conclude that it's in reality rarely full contact blows. The punching in boxing is effective in other arenas, even though there are lots of prohibitions, while most of the WTF kicking will not work in a kickboxing or K1 arena.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> Like Jaeimseu already pointed out, WTF sparring is in practice point fighting for most of the time. I've seen my fair share of WTF fights to conclude that it's in reality rarely full contact blows. The punching in boxing is effective in other arenas, even though there are lots of prohibitions, while most of the WTF kicking will not work in a kickboxing or K1 arena.




So, now it's just WTF not all TKD that won't do well in kick boxing?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> So, now it's just WTF not all TKD that won't do well in kick boxing?



ITF is point fighting in most events also, outside of easter europe. The ones that do full contact in ITF would do better. The ATA and their american competitions is a far cry from kickboxing.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Drose427 said:


> ........ But he very obviously fought like a kukki TKD guy in the UFC, .



Sure, hands down, no punching, only rear leg kicks ...... Uh,  no.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Jaeimseu said:


> I'm a Kukki Taekwondo guy, but that's a bit of an exaggeration. Nobody eats full contact kicks to the face and just stands there.
> 
> .



Oh, yes, Chuck Norris does, and he spits them back at you and knocks you out. (For those who claim I did not indicate humor in prior posts this is an attempt at such).


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> ITF is point fighting in most events also, outside of easter europe. The ones that do full contact in ITF would do better. The ATA and their american competitions is a far cry from kickboxing.



Are you an expert on American TKD? I mean, do you know better than American TKDists?

You do realise you've backtracked about it being TKD that doesn't do well now it's only some 'types' of TKD?


----------



## Laplace_demon

The difference between american kickboxers and ITF guys (that spar full contact) is that the best kickboxers has an edge on the punches, ITFer has an edge on kicking. Should even out.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> The difference between american kickboxers and ITF guys (that spar full contact) is that the best kickboxers has an edge on the punches, ITFer has an edge on kicking. Should even out.



American kick boxers?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> American kick boxers?



You don't know what american style kickboxing is?  I don't know why you put a space between kick and boxing. It looks very silly.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Like Jaeimseu already pointed out, WTF sparring is in practice point fighting for most of the time. I've seen my fair share of WTF fights to conclude that it's in reality rarely full contact blows. The punching in boxing is effective in other arenas, even though there are lots of prohibitions, while most of the WTF kicking will not work in a kickboxing or K1 arena.


That's not what he said.

The head contact has become more controlled, but just because they don't, doesn't mean they can't. The body contact is as hefty as it ever was.

Until you get in that ring, you have no idea.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> You don't know what american style kickboxing is?  I don't know why you put a space between kick and boxing. It looks very silly.




ROFLMAO, nothing like a foreigner telling a native speaker how to write their own language. Dear boy, you are priceless. Well, when it comes to language, you see, you weren't clear at all whether you meant kick boxers who are American or whether you meant American styled kick boxing. One does appreciate understandable English.  Oh and American has a capital letter A, it's a proper noun.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> That's not what he said.
> 
> The head contact has become more controlled, but just because they don't, doesn't mean they can't. The body contact is as hefty as it ever was.
> 
> Until you get in that ring, you have no idea.



I have seen enough of it. Its not full contact for strategic purposes, for most of the time. I have been trained full contact to the body(stomach) with no protection in a KKW school. You are not going to convince me that WTF is full contact in practise. Nonsense.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> I have seen enough of it. Its not full contact for strategic purposes, for most of the time. I have been trained full contact to the body*(stomach)* with no protection in a KKW school. You are not going convince me that WTF is full contact in practise. Nonsense.




So you have Abs. of steel then, what happens if you get hit with a liver shot?
Now, I'm not a medical person but I always had the impression there was more to the body than just the stomach.

I've seen heart operations but that doesn't mean I know how to do them.

Liver shots. Love em.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> I have seen enough of it. Its not full contact for strategic purposes, for most of the time. I have been trained full contact to the body(stomach) with no protection in a KKW school. You are not going to convince me that WTF is full contact in practise. Nonsense.


Was it really full contact? I'm asking because I'm positive if we trained full contact kicks to the body with no protection  at my dojang people would hospitalized. And I'm not trying to brag about our school. Most of our students are just average recreational taekwondo students. But many of them were competitive when they were younger. I wouldn't allow many of them to kick me "full" contact (even wearing a hogu). The highest level guys are former Kukkiwon demonstration team guys and I wouldn't take their best shot with two hogus on.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> Was it really full contact? I'm asking because I'm positive if we trained full contact kicks to the body with no protection  at my dojang people would hospitalized. And I'm not trying to brag about our school. Most of our students are just average recreational taekwondo students. But many of them were competitive when they were younger. I wouldn't allow many of them to kick me "full" contact (even wearing a hogu). The highest level guys are former Kukkiwon demonstration team guys and I wouldn't take their best shot with two hogus on.



We were instructed to kick each other with no protection. I must have done sparring too, since I was graded there, but it was quite a while back.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> Like Jaeimseu already pointed out, WTF sparring is in practice point fighting for most of the time. I've seen my fair share of WTF fights to conclude that it's in reality rarely full contact blows. The punching in boxing is effective in other arenas, even though there are lots of prohibitions, while most of the WTF kicking will not work in a kickboxing or K1 arena.


I would say that taekwondoin who trained predominantly for Taekwondo competition would do poorly in the kickboxing ring without a lot of sport specific training. However, that works in reverse, too. A kick boxer isn't going to step into a WTF ring and do well. 

About twenty years ago we put together a team tryout for a regional tournament. We invited guys and gals from several schools. One instructor invited a guy who had done taekwondo in the past but had been kickboxing for a few years. We chewed him up and spit him out because he had no game in our game. Put us in a boxing ring and he likely would have done better.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> I have seen enough of it. Its not full contact for strategic purposes, for most of the time. I have been trained full contact to the body(stomach) with no protection in a KKW school. You are not going to convince me that WTF is full contact in practise. Nonsense.


Strong words. Two things:

1) It would be highly unusual and irresponsible for a dojang to allow you to train full contact without protective equipment. And, even if you did, it would take a special kind of BB to go full contact against a beginner. Which you are. 

2) I don't have to convince you of anything. I have enough experience to tell you you're wrong. You can do your own work to convince yourself. Or not. Whatever. No skin off of my nose.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> I would say that taekwondoin who trained predominantly for Taekwondo competition would do poorly in the kickboxing ring without a lot of sport specific training. However, that works in reverse, too. A kick boxer isn't going to step into a WTF ring and do well.
> 
> About twenty years ago we put together a team tryout for a regional tournament. We invited guys and gals from several schools. One instructor invited a guy who had done taekwondo in the past but had been kickboxing for a few years. We chewed him up and spit him out because he had no game in our game. Put us in a boxing ring and he likely would have done better.



My point is that TKD sport has no bearing outside of TKD for fighting. You can forget about most of those WTF kicks on the street in jeans in a dangerous situation. It wouldn't be wise to try out, even if you could. The same is true in a K1/kickboxing arena. In most fighting involving kicks and punches, training in TKD rules is counterproductive.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> My point is that TKD sport has no bearing outside of TKD for fighting. You can forget about most of those WTF kicks on the street in jeans in a dangerous situation. It wouldn't be wise to try out, even if you could. The same is true in a K1/kickboxing arena. In most fighting involving kicks and punches, training in TKD rules is counterproductive.




Sigh.


----------



## Gnarlie

Tez3 said:


> Sigh.


I see your sigh and raise you a *yawn*


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> Strong words. Two things:
> 
> 1) It would be highly unusual and irresponsible for a dojang to allow you to train full contact without protective equipment.



You have never heard of an irresponsible dojang? How many have you actually visited?


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> You have never heard of an irresponsible dojang? How many have you actually visited?


Seriously, I have broken bones and had bones broken through the protective gear. You weren't sparring full contact, believe me.


----------



## Gnarlie

Tez3 said:


> So you have Abs. of steel then, what happens if you get hit with a liver shot?
> Now, I'm not a medical person but I always had the impression there was more to the body than just the stomach.
> 
> I've seen heart operations but that doesn't mean I know how to do them.
> 
> Liver shots. Love em.


I made a mate of mine barf and then cry from a liver shot through a hogu. It was his fault, he stepped forward onto my back kick! [emoji3]


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> You have never heard of an irresponsible dojang? How many have you actually visited?




Let me turn this question around, how many dojangs and dojos have YOU actually visited?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> Seriously, I have broken bones and had bones broken through the protective gear. You weren't sparring full contact, believe me.



He did ask us to kick the person next to us, in the stomatch, to kondition our bodies. This I remember quite clearly (guess why)


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> He did ask us to kick the person next to us, in the stomatch, to kondition our bodies. This I remember quite clearly (guess why)


That's not a full contact exercise.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> He did ask us to kick the person next to us, in the stomatch, to kondition our bodies. This I remember quite clearly (guess why)




Could have been a lot worse, trust me.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> That's not a full contact exercise.



Did you not spar your first 6 months in a KKW school?


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Did you not spar your first 6 months in a KKW school?


Yes, of course. But without PPE = not full contact. Further to that, even with PPE, in the early stages both you and your opponent are not technically capable of generating full contact. You're not even capable of doing so against a mitt for quite a long time. So no, you haven't sparred full contact, sorry.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> Yes, of course. But without PPE = not full contact. Further to that, even with PPE, in the early stages both you and your opponent are not technically capable of generating full contact. You're not even capable of doing so against a mitt for quite a long time. So no, you haven't sparred full contact, sorry.



Ok, tough guy. I downed a red belt, but I don't remember which excercise it was. It was some type of fighting. Our training was not only against each other.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Ok, tough guy. I downed a red belt, but I don't remember which excercise it was. It was some type of fighting. Our training was not only against each other.


Meaningless statement.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> Meaningless statement.



You are so full of yourself. I think I have said all that I need.


----------



## Gnarlie

Ha. Rich.

Look, if you went into a KKW school as a beginner and started kicking senior Keup grades hard enough to put them on the mat in an exercise intended to condition, then I'm sorry, but you don't have a clue what martial arts is about.

Here's the thing though: they wouldn't have kicked you full contact, so you don't have that experience.

Attack the argument dude.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> My point is that TKD sport has no bearing outside of TKD for fighting. You can forget about most of those WTF kicks on the street in jeans in a dangerous situation. It wouldn't be wise to try out, even if you could. The same is true in a K1/kickboxing arena. In most fighting involving kicks and punches, training in TKD rules is counterproductive.


What WTF kicks are you referring to? Traditionally, WTF rules sparring is about 90% or more roundhouse kick. Why would you be unable to round kick in jeans? I think you have a misconception that Kukki taekwondoin are all about fancy kicks. The flashy stuff makes the highlight reels, but the vast majority of players are relying on the bread and butter techniques, which doesn't generally include flying through the air or spinning. The fancy stuff usually comes out in matches where one player is outclassed. 

The match strategy may not translate to a street fight, but the ability to control distance and attack with fundamental techniques does. Obviously, it would be advantageous for the fighter to have trained hand techniques, but to say the skills aren't applicable is crazy IMO. We can come up with a million "what if"" scenarios, but there are plenty of skills that are applicable to fighting outside of the TKD ring.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> What WTF kicks are you referring to? Traditionally, WTF rules sparring is about 90% or more roundhouse kick. Why would you be unable to round kick in jeans? I think you have a misconception that Kukki taekwondoin are all about fancy kicks. The flashy stuff makes the highlight reels, but the vast majority of players are relying on the bread and butter techniques, which doesn't generally include flying through the air or spinning. The fancy stuff usually comes out in matches where one player is outclassed.
> 
> The match strategy may not translate to a street fight, but the ability to control distance and attack with fundamental techniques does. Obviously, it would be advantageous for the fighter to have trained hand techniques, but to say the skills aren't applicable is crazy IMO. We can come up with a million "what if"" scenarios, but there are plenty of skills that are applicable to fighting outside of the TKD ring.



There are equivalent roundhouses for a MT or Kickboxer which would work as well. I've found that ITF is more balanced than KKW. The time gained on training in kicking over punching is not worth it in my opinion.

If there are KKW schools which evenly distribute kicking and punching, then that's a seperate story. But again, there are losses and gains with every approach.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> There are equivalent roundhouses for a MT or Kickboxer which would work as well. I've found that ITF is more balanced than KKW. The time gained on training in kicking over punching is not worth it in my opinion.
> 
> If there are KKW schools which evenly distribute kicking and punching, then that's a seperate story. But again, there are losses and gains with every approach.


I agree that ITF tournament sparring is more balanced (hands and feet) than WTF tournament sparring. I think it's important to note, however, that competitors make up a very small percentage of taekwondo practitioners. IMO that's why sport only schools tend to be rare (especially in the US). Trying to make a living on sport sparring only is risky at best. Not too many dojangs can keep the doors open like that. I'd say it's the same in Korea, too. Most dojang teach the broader art and then students specialize if they want to focus in a particular area. 

One thing I'm sure of is that these instructors don't care if what they teach translates to kickboxing or not. Their focus is taekwondo because they love taekwondo. I don't know why people these days think every art needs to include every technique under the sun and be applicable to fighting in any and every circumstance to be considered worthy of study. 

Also, how did we get to this from Joe Rogan? Talk about thread drift!


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> Also, how did we get to this from Joe Rogan? Talk about thread drift!



I for one would be curious to know how Rogans hands were in his own words "terrible", if he received his black belt in a non sport oriented KKW school, under the tutelage of GM Jae H. Kim. This must mean that even in those schools, they don't evenly distribute kicking and punching.  Pretty hard to refute.


----------



## Gnarlie

Jaeimseu said:


> Also, how did we get to this from Joe Rogan? Talk about thread drift!



This has been on and off a style bashing thread since post 9 on page 1. Post 9: Rogan quoted as bashing Taekwondo. Post 10: Nobody should bash TKD but my critique of it is...


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> I for one would be curious to know how Rogans hands were in his own words "terrible", if he received his black belt in a non sport oriented KKW school, under the tutelage of GM Jae H. Kim. This must mean that even in those schools, they don't evenly distribute kicking and punching.  Pretty hard to refute.


Probably his hands were terrible in a ring with much more experienced kick boxers. My question is, why would he expect any different? I've seen plenty of kick boxers whose kicking skill would look pretty terrible in a taekwondo competition. 

The bottom line is, you should practice what you want to do. If you want to kickbox, then kickbox. No one should expect to be immediately successful in competitions with radically different rule sets.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> I for one would be curious to know how Rogans hands were in his own words "terrible", if he received his black belt in a non sport oriented KKW school, under the tutelage of GM Jae H. Kim. This must mean that even in those schools, they don't evenly distribute kicking and punching.  Pretty hard to refute.



There you go again trying to extrapolate from an isolated case to draw a conclusion about the whole population.

The conclusions that can reasonably be drawn here are either or both of the following:

The individual school he attended did not focus much on hands (balanced training is quite likely if they were anything other than a competition focused school for poomsae and or sparring). 

and or

He didn't take what he was taught and develop it into self-style. 

Taekwondo is not an art for people who like to be spoonfed. A large proportion of responsibility for the outcome of training lies with the practitioner.

Neither of the above conclusions says or can be extrapolated to say anything about KKW schools in general.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Laplace_demon said:


> Ok, tough guy. I downed a red belt, but I don't remember which excercise it was. It was some type of fighting. Our training was not only against each other.


Once i knocked the wind out of someone with a back kick through the kicking shield he was holding since we are comparing stories now.


----------



## TrueJim

In case anybody is interested, here are some YouTube videos of taekwondo-style kicks being used in real fights:





















I'm not suggesting that this is commonplace, only that it does happen. I grabbed these from the Wiki page on self-defense. If anybody has any other good examples, let me know.


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## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> We were instructed to kick each other with no protection. I must have done sparring too, since I was graded there, but it was quite a while back.



So a couple untrained little children were (stupidly) kicking each other without gear, and you're comparing that to world class atheltes?

Congratulations. This is one of the silliest things I've seen all week. Heeere's your sign.



Laplace_demon said:


> I for one would be curious to know how Rogans hands were in his own words "terrible", if he received his black belt in a non sport oriented KKW school, under the tutelage of GM Jae H. Kim. This must mean that even in those schools, they don't evenly distribute kicking and punching.  Pretty hard to refute.



No, all it actually means is that HE didn't learn to use his hands effectively in THAT ONE school.

Trying to extrapolate a result that is relevant to the entire world from a sample size of one is ridiculous.

I mean, after all, I've seen a man shot in the head at contact distance with a .45ACP round and be just fine.
Therefore, by your logic, it doesn't hurt people to shoot them in the head at contact distance with a .45ACP round.


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## Grenadier

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

Please keep this discussion civil, on-topic, and within the confines of the Terms of Service.  

-Ronald Shin
-MT Administrator


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## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> I for one would be curious to know how Rogans hands were in his own words "terrible", if he received his black belt in a non sport oriented KKW school, under the tutelage of GM Jae H. Kim. This must mean that even in those schools, they don't evenly distribute kicking and punching.  Pretty hard to refute.



Or it means Joe himself had a weak hand game......

one student really isnt representative of his school, forget being representative of tkd


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> So a couple untrained little children were (stupidly) kicking each other without gear, and you're comparing that to world class atheltes?
> 
> Congratulations. This is one of the silliest things I've seen all week. Heeere's your sign.



I was 16 or 17 at the time and around the same height as today. The world class athletes of today are wearing heavy padding, engaging in foot fencing. 




Dirty Dog said:


> No, all it actually means is that HE didn't learn to use his hands effectively in THAT ONE school.
> 
> Trying to extrapolate a result that is relevant to the entire world from a sample size of one is ridiculous.
> 
> I mean, after all, I've seen a man shot in the head at contact distance with a .45ACP round and be just fine.
> Therefore, by your logic, it doesn't hurt people to shoot them in the head at contact distance with a .45ACP round.



You are assuming that an above average student in TKD (Joe Rogan) doesn't know how to use his hands. I however assume that he does (by virtue of being above average). Who has the ureasonable assumptions here?


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> I was 16 or 17 at the time and around the same height as today. The world class athletes of today are wearing heavy padding, engaging in foot fencinng.
> 
> 
> You are assuming that an above average student in TKD (Joe Rogan) doesn't know how to use his hands. I however assume that he does (by virtue of being above average). Who has the ureasonable assumptions here?



Im not sure how you keep considering him above average. His only real accomplishment was a local association tournament and generates typical BB speed and power....

If he was some above average, world class fighter hed be bragged about as a student of his association to speak for the quality of training. Its just gpod marketing to do so

not to mention in the only video clip of him, i believe he goes into the match with his hands down, which isnt a trademark of ITF in your own words so clearly it was a personal choice to fight that way. If he neglects his hands in one match, odds are he would in others.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Drose427 said:


> Im not sure how you keep considering him above average. His only real accomplishment was a local association tournament and generates typical BB speed and power....
> 
> If he was some above average, world class fighter hed be bragged about as a student of his association to speak for the quality of training. Its just gpod marketing to do so
> 
> not to mention in the only video clip of him, i believe he goes into the match with his hands down, which isnt a trademark of ITF in your own words so clearly it was a personal choice to fight that way. If he neglects his hands in one match, odds are he would in others.



Lots of ITF guys at the highest level (world finals) that fight with their hands down in competition. That's a myth.  They want us to keep them up in training though. And we train hands 50% of the time. They aren't "terrible".

 Rogan kept them down against kickboxers, but they were clearly no good either, since he labelled them "terrible". The match I posted might have been WTF rules, given their uniforms.


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> Lots of ITF guys at the highest level (world finals) that fight with their hands down in competition. That's a myth.  They want us to keep them up in training though. And we train hands 50% of the time. They aren't "terrible".
> 
> Rogan kept them down against kickboxers, but they were clearly no good either, since he labelled them "terrible". The match I posted might have been WTF rules, given their uniforms.



of course his were terrible.....you just said he kept them down.. 

Again, how is one average black belt who has poor hands representative of his whole school?

A reverse punch in sparring is the equixvalent of a boxers straight (and cross if he chooses) many brawlers in the UFC use Straight punches as the Majority of their puncnhes and do just fine (Guida, Machida uses ALOT of reverse punches) so clearly if ones careful and disciplined, theyll be able to hold their own against hooks, uppercuts, etc. Will they ever be as good boxers as a bocer? Of course not,  but they can sure as heck keep a tight guard and throw combinations of punches/kicks to hold their own.

If rogan kept his guard up, he wouldnt have been pummeled. If he had bad hands, it was a personal issue, not a school/style one.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Drose427 said:


> If rogan kept his guard up, he wouldnt have been pummeled. If he had bad hands, it was a personal issue, not a school/style one.



Depends on the schools priorities. If you only kick against mitts and never strike, then you will not develop good hands. We never used our hands outside of patterns in my KKW school. It was exclusively kicking against mitts. The guys were technically skilled kickers over there, since that was basically all they did, outside of patterns (which weren't prioritized). If Rogans school was the same, then it's no wonder.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Drose427 said:


> Im not sure how you keep considering him above average. His only real accomplishment was a local association tournament and generates typical BB speed and power....



He was a TKD *instructor*.


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## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> He was a TKD *instructor*.


Idk where you heard that, it wasnt even on his websites biography.  


But he was a second dan if i recall corretly, that makes him a jr instructor. But there are also 18-20 year olds who are average who are also jr instructors. 

Jo kyo nim vs Sah Bum Nim, still an instructor but not the head.

In our association, the USTW holds a seminar every so often for a instructors cert idk all the requirements, but 1st dan is one of them

Heck, if you wanna use the term loosley, and colored belt working with a lower ranks is the lower ranks instructor.

Calling oneself an instructor doesnt make you a Accomplished or exceptional master of a style

and

Simply being an instructor doesnt make you above average.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Drose427 said:


> Idk where you heard that, it wasnt even on his websites biography.


----------



## Laplace_demon

So a TKD instructor doesn't know how to use his hands effectively? Yes, if you ask Dirty Dog.


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


>



Again, i could say im an  instrcutor because i work with low colored belts every class. A brand new first dan would be a jo kyo nim in many classes, but theyre hardly authorities.

He can say all he wants, hes never shown or accomplished anything outside of the ability of a average newer BB.

Quite frankly, if he keeps he hands down when kickboxing instead of adapting his fighting to the circumstance, id question his ability as an instructor.



Laplace_demon said:


> So a TKD instructor doesn't know how to use his hands effectively? Yes, if you ask Dirty Dog.



A mediocre TKD 1st or 2nd dan who calls himself an instrcutor (whens he was in reality most likely nothing more than an assistant), who thought it was fine to keep his hands down in kickboxing.......pretty self explanatory of his "prowess" if you ask me...


----------



## TrueJim

Okay, some actors/celebrities who also practice taekwondo: Jessica Alba, Michael Imperioli, Ryan Phillippe, Sarah Michelle Gellar, Wesley Snipes, Willie Nelson. You see where I'm going with this, right? It's like _Dancing with the Stars_...*but with taekwondo instead!* I'm telling you, this could work!

First round...Joe Rogan vs. Sarah Michelle Gellar...fight!


----------



## Gnarlie

TrueJim said:


> Okay, some actors/celebrities who also practice taekwondo: Jessica Alba, Michael Imperioli, Ryan Phillippe, Sarah Michelle Gellar, Wesley Snipes, Willie Nelson. You see where I'm going with this, right? It's like _Dancing with the Stars_...*but with taekwondo instead!* I'm telling you, this could work!
> 
> First round...Joe Rogan vs. Sarah Michelle Gellar...fight!



My money's on SMG, at least she can palm heel strike...


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> So a TKD instructor doesn't know how to use his hands effectively? Yes, if you ask Dirty Dog.



I never said anything of the sort. 

I will say that it's obvious there are TKD students who don't know how to use their brains. 



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Drose427

Gnarlie said:


> My money's on SMG, at least she can palm heel strike...



Shes also killed waaayyyyyy more vampires than Joe.

That counts for something!


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## Tez3

Dirty Dog said:


> I will say that it's obvious there are TKD students who don't know how to use their brains.



Whoosh... straight over the head there...


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> I never said anything of the sort.
> 
> I will say that it's obvious there are TKD students who don't know how to use their brains.



Joe Rogan was an instructor. This is who you said can't use his hands effectively. Could it just be that they were weak regardless? I don't think Joe is stupid. To the contrary.


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> Joe Rogan was an instructor. This is who you said can't use his hands effectively. Could it just be that they were weak regardless? I don't think Joe is stupid. To the contrary.



the instructor claim makes no difference or defines one as being anything better than average. Especially being 2nd dan, mean he was most likely nothing more than an assistant.

I previously refuted it and explained how little it means. Being an instructor has no bearing or effect on Joe inability to use common sense and keep his guard up and punch. That shows a lack of sparring brains.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Drose427 said:


> the instructor claim makes no difference or defines one as being anything better than average. Especially being 2nd dan, mean he was most likely nothing more than an assistant.



He just said in the clip that he had his own school. He was 21 dude, you can't have an 8th dan by then. You need to wait between dan grades, no matter if you are Bruce Lee. It also has to be taken into account when he started training. He first tried out Karate.


----------



## Laplace_demon

My father had a total of 5 dan after approximately 23 years (counting from when he was a beginner). It took 7 years later for him to receive his 6th. You simply don't understand dan grading


----------



## TrueJim

Drose427 said:


> Shes also killed waaayyyyyy more vampires than Joe.



Excellent point. She also studied taekwondo for at least five years apparently, and has studied kickboxing. Apparently she keeps her hands up too (or at least, one of them, see photo). I'm going to have to give it to Sarah Michelle Gellar too.







News OFFmag Sarah Michelle Gellar biography


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> He just said in the clip that he had his own school. He was 21 dude, you can't have an 8th dan by then. You need to wait between dan grades, no matter if you are Bruce Lee. It also has to be taken into account when he started training. He first tried out Karate.



I highly doubt he owned and operated a school at 21 being second dan. Especially considering his distinct lack of accomplishments. A class more likely, probably teaching at his instructors school.

But lets say he did, that still means nothing.

Any yellow belt can leave his association, open a school and call it " John Kwan Do" and call themselves an instrcutor. It means nothing. Joe has never shown or accomplished anything high caliber, only bragged and inflated his own average achievements.

I can teach TSD or Boxing at the the rec room in the Y and say "its my school." That doesnt make me an exceptional martial artist.

Youre the only person mentioning 8th dan, i understand exactly how dan grading works. At 1-2 dan hed be a Jo Kyo Nim, junior black belt\junior instructor usually takes around 5 year minimum total training time for 2nd dan although most people usually take longer. Then as rank increases as do intervals. 3rd dan is usually Boo Sah Bum Nim, with 4th or 5th being Master Instructor or Sah Bum Nim. Technically those terms dont apply to specific ranks i believe but thats qherw they generally fall.

Believing calling onself an instructor equates to any form of tangible skill makes me believe you dont understand how any of this works.


----------



## Drose427

TrueJim said:


> Excellent point. She also studied taekwondo for at least five years apparently, and has studied kickboxing. Apparently she keeps her hands up too (or at least, one of them, see photo). I'm going to have to give it to Sarah Michelle Gellar too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> News OFFmag Sarah Michelle Gellar biography



Shes got one covering the head and one covering the midsection, youll see this in MMA too though so if shes careful itll come through for her!

Im giving my edge to her as well!


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> Joe Rogan was an instructor. This is who you said can't use his hands effectively. Could it just be that they were weak regardless? I don't think Joe is stupid. To the contrary.



When did I say that? I do t recall ever commenting on Mr Rogans level of skill. 

I don't have any reason to think Mr Rogan is stupid. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Drose427 said:


> I highly doubt he owned and operated a school at 21 being second dan. Especially considering his distinct lack of accomplishments. A class more likely, probably teaching at his instructors school.
> 
> But lets say he did, that still means nothing.
> 
> Any yellow belt can leave his association, open a school and call it " John Kwan Do" and call themselves an instrcutor. It means nothing. Joe has never shown or accomplished anything high caliber, only bragged and inflated his own average achievements.
> 
> I can teach TSD or Boxing at the the rec room in the Y and say "its my school." That doesnt make me an exceptional martial artist.
> 
> Youre the only person mentioning 8th dan, i understand exactly how dan grading works. At 1-2 dan hed be a Jo Kyo Nim, junior black belt\junior instructor usually takes around 5 year minimum total training time for 2nd dan although most people usually take longer. Then as rank increases as do intervals. 3rd dan is usually Boo Sah Bum Nim, with 4th or 5th being Master Instructor or Sah Bum Nim. Technically those terms dont apply to specific ranks i believe but thats qherw they generally fall.
> 
> Believing calling onself an instructor equates to any form of tangible skill makes me believe you dont understand how any of this works.



Close, but not quite. Nim is an honorific, a show of respect, not part of the title. The title is kyosa, sabum, kwanjang, etc.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Drose427 said:


> I highly doubt he owned and operated a school at 21 being second dan. Especially considering his distinct lack of accomplishments. A class more likely, probably teaching at his instructors school.
> 
> But lets say he did, that still means nothing.
> 
> Any yellow belt can leave his association, open a school and call it " John Kwan Do" and call themselves an instrcutor. It means nothing. Joe has never shown or accomplished anything high caliber, only bragged and inflated his own average achievements.
> 
> I can teach TSD or Boxing at the the rec room in the Y and say "its my school." That doesnt make me an exceptional martial artist.
> 
> Youre the only person mentioning 8th dan, i understand exactly how dan grading works. At 1-2 dan hed be a Jo Kyo Nim, junior black belt\junior instructor usually takes around 5 year minimum total training time for 2nd dan although most people usually take longer. Then as rank increases as do intervals. 3rd dan is usually Boo Sah Bum Nim, with 4th or 5th being Master Instructor or Sah Bum Nim. Technically those terms dont apply to specific ranks i believe but thats qherw they generally fall.
> 
> Believing calling onself an instructor equates to any form of tangible skill makes me believe you dont understand how any of this works.



You brought up his dan level when he in fact couldn't have more at age 21. There are countless of 6-9 dans in TKD who don't even come close to Rogans technical level and power generation. Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis - just about any karate or TKD legend from the 70s or the 80s, do not have his technique.


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> You brought up his dan level when in fact he couldn't have more at age 21. There are countless of 6-9 dans in TKD who don't even come close to Rogans technical level and power generation. Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis - just about any karate or TKD legend from the 70s or the 80s, do not have his technique.



Name one 9 dan that is even in good enough health to kick a bag that hard. I can promise you they were doing just as well when they were 21-45.

His power and technical level isnt anything special For his size, age, and rank.

Benny the jet was using equal level tech and kicked hard enough to do damage to MT fighters. 
Emilio narvaez was kicking properly as well.
Bill Wallace had significantly better roundhouses.

We have guys at our school ages 16-35 who move the heavy bag the same way he does at 1st gup - 2nd dan.

We have higher ups who can kick harder and better.

We also have 5 dans who cant train like they used to and are outclassed in sparring by the young guyd of lower rank

We have 1st gups who are 21 outkicking 6 dans who are 50.

Youve been told by 5 or 6 karate/tkd  all from completely different areas and experiences guys that his power and technique isnt anything special for his age/rank, because it isnt. Hes making hard contact and moving the bag 

He isnt knocking a 200 lb bag to the ceiling or breaking trees, 

Youre carrying a torch that isnt there bud.

Not all Black belts are equal in any style. Theyre just a belt. A better indicator of hard work and commitment than overal talent. You seem to have a hard time with this concept.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Drose427 said:


> Name one 9 dan that is even in good enough health to kick a bag that hard. I can promise you they were doing just as well when they were 21-45.
> 
> His power and technical level isnt anything special For his size, age, and rank.
> 
> Benny the jet was using equal level tech and kicked hard enough to do damage to MT fighters.
> Emilio narvaez was kicking properly as well.
> Bill Wallace had significantly better roundhouses.
> 
> We have guys at our school ages 16-35 who move the heavy bag the same way he does at 1st gup - 2nd dan.
> 
> We have higher ups who can kick harder and better.
> 
> We also have 5 dans who cant train like they used to and are outclassed in sparring by the young guyd of lower rank
> 
> We have 1st gups who are 21 outkicking 6 dans who are 50.
> 
> Youve been told by 5 or 6 karate/tkd  all from completely different areas and experiences guys that his power and technique isnt anything special for his age/rank, because it isnt. Hes making hard contact and moving the bag
> 
> He isnt knocking a 200 lb bag to the ceiling or breaking trees,
> 
> Youre carrying a torch that isnt there bud.
> 
> Not all Black belts are equal in any style. Theyre just a belt. A better indicator of hard work and commitment than overal talent. You seem to have a hard time with this concept.



I don't judge based on how he moves a bag. His technical level is phenomenal, and still way past his prime. Not the aerial kick though (obviously). I have George St Pierre on my side. I am certainly not alone.


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't judge based on how he moves a bag. His technical level is phenomenal, and still way past his prime. Not the aerial kick though (obviously). I have George St Pierre on my side. I am certainly not alone.



His technical level is typcial of a BB...spend enough time actually training (or heck even on youtube i found instructional vids where instructors had equatable/better technique kicking at air or a partner. You can also find a myriad of heavy bag drills where guys are doing more damage do a bag with the same kicks. He has proper technique, but it isnt anything over the top.



You have a clip of GSP exaggerating/playing up joes ability in an interview when asked out of respect for joe working with him. You spend ANY amount of time in ANY MA and you see how insanely common it. if i had a nickel for everytime i heard an instrcutor tell a student "that was one of  the bes or hardest (insert x kick) ive ever seen" id be rich. Many other MA's from many other styles would be as well.

Segals ability is CONSTANTLY under scrutiny in the MA world across many different style and venue, whos style has consistently been called "useless" in MMA by MMA fans,  yet nearly every MMA fighter hes worked with spoke nothing but praise about him and his ability.

Its just the respectful thing to do. If Jimmy paints a mural on skids van for free and it isnt complete trash, skids gonna say, "its the best mural hes ever seen"

Forget MA, this happens all over life...


Heck, i just worked with a new MMA guy on striking, took it easy on him just to show him where his faults and when i tweeted him praise for a good sparring session, he said "i messed him up."


----------



## Laplace_demon

Drose427 said:


> His technical level is typcial of a BB...spend enough time actually training (or heck even on youtube i found instructional vids where instructors had equatable/better technique kicking at air or a partner. You can also find a myriad of heavy bag drills where guys are doing more damage do a bag with the same kicks. He has proper technique, but it isnt anything over the top.
> 
> 
> 
> You have a clip of GSP exaggerating/playing up joes ability in an interview when asked out of respect for joe working with him. You spend ANY amount of time in ANY MA and you see how insanely common it. if i had a nickel for everytime i heard an instrcutor tell a student "that was one of  the bes or hardest (insert x kick) ive ever seen" id be rich. Many other MA's from many other styles would be as well.
> 
> Segals ability is CONSTANTLY under scrutiny in the MA world across many different style and venue, whos style has consistently been called "useless" in MMA by MMA fans,  yet nearly every MMA fighter hes worked with spoke nothing but praise about him and his ability.
> 
> Its just the respectful thing to do. If Jimmy paints a mural on skids van for free and it isnt complete trash, skids gonna say, "its the best mural hes ever seen"
> 
> Forget MA, this happens all over life...
> 
> 
> Heck, i just worked with a new MMA guy on striking, took it easy on him just to show him where his faults and when i tweeted him praise for a good sparring session, he said "i messed him up."



George St Pierre personally asked him to teach him the spinning back kick. This wasn't a publicity thing, him praising Rogan. And no, based on what I've seen, Benny Urquidez (Karate, TKD) is not superior from a technical standpoint in doing the spinning back kick. Bennys was brutal, though.


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> George St Pierre personally asked him to teach him the spinning back kick. This wasn't a publicity thing, him praising Rogan. And no, based on what I've seen, Benny Urquidez (Karate, TKD) is not superior from a technical standpoint in doing the spinning back kick. Bennys was brutal though.



1. Nowhere in any video does GSP specifically ask Joe for help (that ive seen). According to the video of them togther, they were just at the gym and joe offered help. It isnt about publicity its about respect and gratefulness. 

2. MMA fighters who actively compete will take help from anywhere or anyome they believe can offer it, my MMA buddies ask me regurlarly to help them with their striking.

3. He knocks the guy from the center of the ring to the corner with kodak moment technique.......praise Joe all you want, he never did either of those. Even with the guy kicking thats pretty big distance. His jump back pivot had immaculate technique.










the gingerninja doesnt even follow through all the way and was decent power and kodak moment form.


If you really think Joes technique was phenominal, you need to to train more


----------



## Gnarlie

Drose, you are right. Came back from teaching last night to see this absurd string of groundless claims continues.

I agree, Mr Rogans kicking technique is nothing special, especially for his grade. Apparently his hands were disappointing for his grade.

Taught one of my classes last night, had my 2nd and 1st Keups drill step back kick to a shield, and every one of them was creating similar impact, even the skinny guys. And that was without asking them to consciously focus on power.


----------



## Tez3

Drose427 said:


> Nowhere in any video does GSP specifically ask Joe for help (that ive seen



I can't imagine why GSP would _need_ to have lessons from Rogan, he started at an early age in Kyokushin karate and still trains, I believe it's as you say.

Rogan has a great number of fanatical fans who believe he is the god of MMA, that everything he says or does is 'the word'. They will not have any criticism or disagreement of him pass without them trying to trash the speaker. A couple of years ago a friend of mine fought in the UFC here in London, she lost her fight, Rogan said something about her in commentary that she disagreed with and she sent a Tweet letting him know in a humorous manner that she didn't agree, Rogan accepted that but his fans, well they went wild sending her everything form nasty comments on her appearance to death and rape threats. It was quite horrible. It's no surprise to me that Laplace is so determined to prove his hero is the best kicker, best everything to the point he's ignoring the truth and getting shirty with other posters. Rogan fans are some of the most fanatical I've come across.


----------



## Drose427

Tez3 said:


> I can't imagine why GSP would _need_ to have lessons from Rogan, he started at an early age in Kyokushin karate and still trains, I believe it's as you say.
> 
> Rogan has a great number of fanatical fans who believe he is the god of MMA, that everything he says or does is 'the word'. They will not have any criticism or disagreement of him pass without them trying to trash the speaker. A couple of years ago a friend of mine fought in the UFC here in London, she lost her fight, Rogan said something about her in commentary that she disagreed with and she sent a Tweet letting him know in a humorous manner that she didn't agree, Rogan accepted that but his fans, well they went wild sending her everything form nasty comments on her appearance to death and rape threats. It was quite horrible. It's no surprise to me that Laplace is so determined to prove his hero is the best kicker, best everything to the point he's ignoring the truth and getting shirty with other posters. Rogan fans are some of the most fanatical I've come across.



Not to mention its a kick GSP uses fairly regularly! 

And id agree about rogans fans, i was explaining to a friend on twitter how Rogan was most likely not the national level competitior his website claims, how so few folks at that level/time seem to remember him competing, how his account doesnt line up (ive never heard of a grand champion outaide of local and traditional tournaments, not to mention official matches between all the weight divisions), how EVERY open martial arts tournament calls itself the US open, how theres an unofficial obline tkd hall of fame and hes never mentioned winning any national or state events in any org ( and this website lists my GM, who has a good lack of online presence but he was at one point on the olympic commitee)and the sketchiness of it all and i got flamed bad by from random woman i assume was monitoring tweets for the his name 

Thats part of why i started this thread, to see if anyone here had anything new to offer. But again, its more cases of people who were around and kept up with it who dont recall him having achievements such as being a national champ


----------



## Gnarlie

There is actually a video with JR and GSP where GSP asks if he can video JRs kick. Rewatching this and other cuts of the original video LD posted, it's evident that JR is demonstrating turn side kick, whereas GSP learned the knee down back kick variant as part of his Kyokushin education. Both versions of this kick exist in Taekwondo, both are capable of generating power. It is evident that GSP is in awe of either Rogan or the Taekwondo kick. Still, nothing special from a TKD perspective there.

Personally I find the knee down version (dwi chagi as opposed to momdollyo yop chagi) more powerful by quite some margin. It also doesn't funnel the typical counter dollyo chagi straight towards your balls, which as anyone with competition experience will tell you, the knee high version does.


----------



## Drose427

Gnarlie said:


> There is actually a video with JR and GSP where GSP asks if he can video JRs kick. Rewatching this and other cuts of the original video LD posted, it's evident that JRs demonstrating turn side kick, whereas GSP learned the knee down back kick variant as part of his Kyokushin education. Both versions of this kick exist in Taekwondo, both are capable of generating power. It is evident that GSP is in awe of either Rogan or the Taekwondo kick. Still, nothing special from a TKD perspective there.
> 
> Personally I find the knee down version (dwi chagi as opposed to momdollyo yop chagi) more powerful by quite some margin. It also doesn't funnel the typical counter dollyo chagi straight towards your balls, which as anyone with competition experience will tell you, the knee high version does.




It seems to me GSP is excited and willing to add a new tech to his toolbox, like any MMa fighter would!

But thats a far cry from seeking Joe out or specifically asking for help. Even the full video looks like he was just taking casual help, not asking for instruction

By knee down do ypu the donkey style back kick?  

Our back pivot (dwidollyo chagi) is the turn, high knee raise, side kick.

We dont personally do the donkey style kick, but i have seen it from other schools ans styles at tourneys


----------



## Tez3

Gnarlie said:


> There is actually a video with JR and GSP where GSP asks if he can video JRs kick. Rewatching this and other cuts of the original video LD posted, it's evident that JR is demonstrating turn side kick, whereas GSP learned the knee down back kick variant as part of his Kyokushin education. Both versions of this kick exist in Taekwondo, both are capable of generating power. It is evident that GSP is in awe of either Rogan or the Taekwondo kick. Still, nothing special from a TKD perspective there.
> 
> Personally I find the knee down version (dwi chagi as opposed to momdollyo yop chagi) more powerful by quite some margin. It also doesn't funnel the typical counter dollyo chagi straight towards your balls, which as anyone with competition experience will tell you, the knee high version does.




It's a thing that MMA fighters have I think, we watch everyone's techniques to see if _we_ can use them lol. it's what makes MMA 'mixed'  I do think as Drose says though that GSP was probably being very polite, perhaps he was mindful of the fanatical Rogan fans!


----------



## Drose427

Tez3 said:


> It's a thing that MMA fighters have I think, we watch everyone's techniques to see if _we_ can use them lol. it's what makes MMA 'mixed'



This is imo one of the best ways to see if someone is blowing smoke or actually training and competing.

You rarely see the guys who really compete doing any sort of style bashing. They dont care about popular opinion of a style or peoples input. If they see something that they think could help, theyre respectful and wanna learn it. Whether they commit to a style or not.

Its not true 100% of the time, but in my experience its true more often than not.


----------



## Gnarlie

Drose427 said:


> It seems to me GSP is excited and willing to add a new tech to his toolbox, like any MMa fighter would!
> 
> But thats a far cry from seeking Joe out or specifically asking for help. Even the full video looks like he was just taking casual help, not asking for instruction
> 
> Absolutely. It is hard to know if GSP is actually the driver behind the demo, or whether it is the cameraman, who seems to have a bit of a man crush on JR, and GSP is just going with the flow.
> 
> By knee down do ypu the donkey style back kick?
> 
> Our back pivot (dwidollyo chagi) is the turn, high knee raise, side kick.
> 
> We dont personally do the donkey style kick, but i have seen it from other schools ans styles at tourneys



We teach both and everything in between - although it is not that slow traditional style donkey kick.

Standard Kukki dwi chagi passes the standing leg with the knees tight together and travels straight to target because it covers the groin and takes the most direct route therefore fastest route to target. It does rotate the kick knee out slightly as it approaches the end of its travel.

Momdollyo yop chagi is a different but related kick in that it relies on a different muscle set but has a similar mechanic - it just turns about 90 degrees further and has that high knee chamber. I love the look of this kick, it looks clean and tidy and depending on the person can be either more or less powerful. On the downside, it exposes a couple of targets during the kick which are not exposed during dwi chagi, namely the pills and the front of the chest. 

There are also hybrid kicks at every point between the two kicks. These are the ones I see most often in sport usage.

One benefit to the knee high kick it that it is easily and quickly convertible on the fly to reach the head or even become bandae dollyo chagi / momdollyo huryo chagi. That's harder to do with the knee down, but it depends on how the person's flexibility works. I tend to throw what fits the situation, the kicks are so closely related that it's not even a conscious decision.






See the first instructions on Dwi Chagi with the knee in tight. Both kicks are demonstrated in this video.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Gnarlie said:


> We teach both and everything in between - although it is not that slow traditional style donkey kick.
> 
> Standard Kukki dwi chagi passes the standing leg with the knees tight together and travels straight to target because it covers the groin and takes the most direct route therefore fastest route to target. It does rotate the kick knee out slightly as it approaches the end of its travel.
> 
> Momdollyo yop chagi is a different but related kick in that it relies on a different muscle set but has a similar mechanic - it just turns about 90 degrees further and has that high knee chamber. I love the look of this kick, it looks clean and tidy and depending on the person can be either more or less powerful. On the downside, it exposes a couple of targets during the kick which are not exposed during dwi chagi, namely the pills and the front of the chest.
> 
> There are also hybrid kicks at every point between the two kicks. These are the ones I see most often in sport usage.
> 
> One benefit to the knee high kick it that it is easily and quickly convertible on the fly to reach the head or even become bandae dollyo chagi / momdollyo huryo chagi. That's harder to do with the knee down, but it depends on how the person's flexibility works. I tend to throw what fits the situation, the kicks are so closely related that it's not even a conscious decision.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See the first instructions on Dwi Chagi with the knee in tight. Both kicks are demonstrated in this video.


For me, the knee down style kick is faster and takes less space to throw. It's also far less likely that you'll over or under rotate. 

I do like the knee up (sidekick) kick, for breaking, at least power breaking.


----------



## Gnarlie

Jaeimseu said:


> For me, the knee down style kick is faster and takes less space to throw. It's also far less likely that you'll over or under rotate.
> 
> I do like the knee up (sidekick) kick, for breaking, at least power breaking.



Agree agree agree. That knee up version just looks so crisp for presenting breaking. I definitely get more power knee down, but I think that's to do with how I am built - I am a better back kicker than a side kicker. I do know some people who get great power breaking results with the knee up though.


----------



## Tez3

Gnarlie said:


> We teach both and everything in between - although it is not that slow traditional style donkey kick.
> 
> Standard Kukki dwi chagi passes the standing leg with the knees tight together and travels straight to target because it covers the groin and takes the most direct route therefore fastest route to target. It does rotate the kick knee out slightly as it approaches the end of its travel.
> 
> Momdollyo yop chagi is a different but related kick in that it relies on a different muscle set but has a similar mechanic - it just turns about 90 degrees further and has that high knee chamber. I love the look of this kick, it looks clean and tidy and depending on the person can be either more or less powerful. On the downside, it exposes a couple of targets during the kick which are not exposed during dwi chagi, namely the pills and the front of the chest.
> 
> There are also hybrid kicks at every point between the two kicks. These are the ones I see most often in sport usage.
> 
> One benefit to the knee high kick it that it is easily and quickly convertible on the fly to reach the head or even become bandae dollyo chagi / momdollyo huryo chagi. That's harder to do with the knee down, but it depends on how the person's flexibility works. I tend to throw what fits the situation, the kicks are so closely related that it's not even a conscious decision.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See the first instructions on Dwi Chagi with the knee in tight. Both kicks are demonstrated in this video.



Nice video, the back kick I do, the Wado Ryu is like the latter one in the video, slight differences in execution and slight difference in how the foot is angled. Ours tend not to be a spinning kick and it is fast once you can do it. I can do it from a standing start if you know what I mean, ( explaining these things is not my forte) just standing there and do it.  It's not so different though. I like the way the video explained and showed things, very easy to understand if not do ( for me lol).
On ours the knees are together as I remember many years ago a rather sexist instructor shouting at the ladies that while it was unusual for us we were to keep our knees together for the start of this kick, nice!

I do love variations on kicks that people do, always interesting even if some of them are out of my range


----------



## RTKDCMB

Laplace_demon said:


> So a TKD instructor doesn't know how to use his hands effectively?


There are quite a few.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Laplace_demon said:


> Joe Rogan was an instructor. This is who you said can't use his hands effectively. Could it just be that they were weak regardless? I don't think Joe is stupid. To the contrary.


You could be the president of Joe Rogan's fan club :

The JRE Fanpage JoeRoganEXP Twitter


----------



## Tez3

RTKDCMB said:


> You could be the president of Joe Rogan's fan club :
> 
> The JRE Fanpage JoeRoganEXP Twitter




Seems like Rogan is an expert on everything!


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan

Gnarlie said:


> Personally I find the knee down version (dwi chagi as opposed to momdollyo yop chagi) more powerful by quite some margin. It also doesn't funnel the typical counter dollyo chagi straight towards your balls, which as anyone with competition experience will tell you, the knee high version does.


I was going to post this too, since someone posted a video of Benny The Jet doing a back kick, while Joe does a turning side kick.  I saw a video or read once (don't remember where) that Benny said he used to love the turning side kick, until he got kicked a couple times in the cajones, then after that, he much preferred the back kick.


----------



## Tez3

I was looking online for a Wado back kick to put up but got so engrossed in watching Wado videos of kicks, strikes and katas, it's been a couple of hours and it's time for bed for me! Martial arts are just so addictive even just watching them.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> I can't imagine why GSP would _need_ to have lessons from Rogan, he started at an early age in Kyokushin karate and still trains, I believe it's as you say.
> It's no surprise to me that Laplace is so determined to prove his hero is the best kicker, best everything to the point he's ignoring the truth and getting shirty with other posters. Rogan fans are some of the most fanatical I've come across.



Kyokushin is not exactly known for it's spinning back kicks ......... Never did I claim that Rogan is the best kicker. He is technically skilled and talented. And nobody has been able to demonstrate a superior example of spinning back kicks, simply because there are none.


----------



## Laplace_demon

RTKDCMB said:


> You could be the president of Joe Rogan's fan club :
> 
> The JRE Fanpage JoeRoganEXP Twitter



As could GSP, by your logic.


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> Kyokushin is not exactly known for it's spinning back kicks ......... Never did I claim that Rogans is the best kicker. He is technically skilled and talented. And nobody has been able to demonstrate a superior example of spinning back kicks, simply because there are none.



Actually several of us have........and pointed out where to find equal or better.. 


Youre just covering your eyes and screaming, "lalalalalalalal"

He isnt as talented as youre claiming whatsoever. He has proper skill, but nothing beyond normal BB and advanced belt standards.

Talent stands out. None of Rogans "accomplishments" have been or can be verified other than words from his mouth. And those words, dont line up with records, anecdotes, and facts.

Nothing joe has shown or said has ever put him as above average with TKD.

Youve had videos, links, recommendations on where to find more, and the opinions and advice of folks far more experienced than youreself. 

His BJJ may very well be a rare level of talent, but his TKD isnt.

Youre simply hiding behind arrogance and admiration.

For kyukushin being known for back kicks, gsp sure used a good bit of them before that clip.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Drose427 said:


> Actually several of us have........and pointed out where to find equal or better..
> 
> 
> Youre just covering your eyes and screaming, "lalalalalalalal"
> 
> He isnt as talented as youre claiming whatsoever. He has proper skill, but nothing beyond normal BB and advanced belt standards.
> 
> Talent stands out. None of Rogans "accomplishments" have been or can be verified other than words from his mouth. And those words, dont line up with records, anecdotes, and facts.
> 
> Nothing joe has shown or said has ever put him as above average with TKD.
> 
> Youve had videos, links, recommendations on where to find more, and the opinions and advice of folks far more experienced than youreself.
> 
> His BJJ may very well be a rare level of talent, but his TKD isnt.
> 
> Youre simply hiding behind arrogance and admiration.
> 
> For kyukushin being known for back kicks, gsp sure used a good bit of them before that clip.



You don't seem to get it that one can be a technically skilled martial artist, yet terrible at fighting. It´s not uncommon to find gifted people in patterns who do much worse at sparring, and the other way around.  None of your examples demonstrated anything even remotely similiar to Rogans demonstrations. I very much doubt that you are a black belt.


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> You don't seem to get it that one can be a technically skilled martial artist, yet terrible at fighting.It is not uncommon to find gifted people in patters who do much worse at sparring, and the other way around.  None of your examples demonstrated anything even remotely similiar to Rogans demonstrations. I very much doubt that you are a black belt.



Actually the videos i posted showed equal or superior tech, we told you were to get more evidence, and you again, have been told by people far more knowledgable and experienced than yourself the answer.

if youre still claiming joes tech is truly superior after everything EVERYONE has shown and told you, youre simply stubborn. I suggest you get to training and leave the fantasy world that a man whos bragging accomplishments he hasnt made or are completly unsubstantiated and unverifiable by record or outside anecdote, whose technique is average,  is some great fighter.

Have fun


----------



## Laplace_demon

Drose427 said:


> Actually the videos i posted showed equal or superior tech, we told you were to get more evidence, and you again, have been told by people far more knowledgable and experienced than yourself the answer.
> 
> if youre still claiming joes tech is truly superior after everything EVERYONE has shown and told you, youre simply stubborn. I suggest you get to training and leave the fantasy world that a man whos bragging accomplishments he hasnt made or are completly unsubstantiated and unverifiable by record or outside anecdote, whose technique is average,  is some great fighter.
> 
> Have fun



That's not true. Earl Weiss is an 8th dan and agreed with me.


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> That's not true. Earl Weiss is an 8th dan and agreed with me.



Actually he corrected you on your innaccurate history of ITF and said the exact same thing we have been.....he said he liked Joes tech, which we've said is proper. But it isnt phenomenal, nor did master weiss say t was phenonemenal. He then went on tk say how he felt it was improper to rate someones kicks based on a bag.

Later he disagreed with me about le's kicking, but nowhere has he agreed with your sentiment that Joe is or was an above average kicker.


----------



## Orange Lightning

Tez3 said:


> I was looking online for a Wado back kick to put up but got so engrossed in watching Wado videos of kicks, strikes and katas, it's been a couple of hours and it's time for bed for me! Martial arts are just so addictive even just watching them.



I binge watched a bunch of gingerninja videos again. Discovered another channel called fightTIP on accident. Stumbled into the fight between Muhammad Ali and George Foreman.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> You don't seem to get it that one can be a technically skilled martial artist, yet terrible at fighting. It´s not uncommon to find gifted people in patterns who do much worse at sparring, and the other way around.  None of your examples demonstrated anything even remotely similiar to Rogans demonstrations. I very much doubt that you are a black belt.



Attack the argument, not the person.

I hold a BB and I maintain that the technical standards in the videos Drose and I have posted are equal to or better than that of JR.


----------



## Tez3

Tez3 said:


> Rogan has a great number of fanatical fans who believe he is the god of MMA, that everything he says or does is 'the word'. They will not have any criticism or disagreement of him pass without them trying to trash the speaker. A couple of years ago a friend of mine fought in the UFC here in London, she lost her fight, Rogan said something about her in commentary that she disagreed with and she sent a Tweet letting him know in a humorous manner that she didn't agree, Rogan accepted that but his fans, well they went wild sending her everything form nasty comments on her appearance to death and rape threats. It was quite horrible. It's no surprise to me that Laplace is so determined to prove his hero is the best kicker, best everything to the point he's ignoring the truth and getting shirty with other posters. Rogan fans are some of the most fanatical I've come across.



Laplace, you can dislike my above post as much as you like but you cannot escape the truth, that Rogan's fans are  fanatical and vile. Even after Rogan himself asked them to lay off they continued to harass and threaten Rosi. I've seen the posts and tweets and they are far worse than the few quoted below. I also know the effect on the person who received them ( who has a young son she was worried for his safety after some of the comments made to her), you have no idea what such online nastiness and bullying can have on the most sane and intelligent person. It's a tsunami of hatred that few of us, luckily, have experienced. Rogan fan's aren't really so much fan's as nasty bullies who even he disowns. With your insults to those on here it's beginning to looks if you are one of their number.

Rosi Sexton and Joe Rogan bump heads and brains on Twitter BJPENN.COM


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Kyokushin is not exactly known for it's spinning back kicks .........



Falsehood! Back Kick, or in Japanese Ushiro Geri is absolutely part of the Kyokushin kicking repertoire, and is often a fight ender when it connects with the solar plexus or head.

Do better research!


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> Falsehood! Back Kick, or in Japanese Ushiro Geri is absolutely part of the Kyokushin kicking repertoire, and is often a fight ender when it connects with the solar plexus or head.
> 
> Do better research!



I don't want to speak too much about Kyokushin, but traditional karate overall is not at the level of TKD (that includes both KKW and ITF) in kicking. Koreans are have a definitive edge.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't want to speak too much about Kyokushin, but traditional karate overall is not at the level of TKD (that includes both KKW and ITF) in kicking. Koreans are have a definitive edge.




Now that's just style bashing from someone who knows very little about either karate or TKD.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't want to speak too much about Kyokushin, but traditional karate overall is not at the level of TKD (that includes both KKW and ITF) in kicking. Koreans are have a definitive edge.



In other words, you were wrong and now you want to change the subject to draw attention away from that. Which is who you have done all the way through this thread, which is why it has turned into a string of erroneous claims and style bashing.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> Now that's just style bashing from someone who knows very little about either karate or TKD.



A *karate* practitioner  objects! I am in chock. Saying one has an edge over the other in a specific area is not style bashing. This is a style bashing complex


----------



## Drose427

Tez3 said:


> Now that's just style bashing from someone who knows very little about either karate or TKD.





Gnarlie said:


> Falsehood! Back Kick, or in Japanese Ushiro Geri is absolutely part of the Kyokushin kicking repertoire, and is often a fight ender when it connects with the solar plexus or head.
> 
> Do better research!



Especially considering the Korean Influence in Kyukushin.....

Lets not forget Mas Oyama wasnt his birth name after all


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> In other words, you were wrong and now you want to change the subject to draw attention away from that. Which is who you have done all the way through this thread, which is why it has turned into a string of erroneous claims and style bashing.



Not really. I would still take the Tkdoin over a Kyokushin guy in spinning back kicks, and spin kicks overall. All else equal.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> A *karate* practitioner  objects! I am in chock. Saying one has an edge over the other in a specific area is not style bashing. This is a style bashing complex




I think you need a doctor if you are in _chock_.

You simply don't have enough knowledge to even compare karate styles let alone compare anything to TKD. You don't know enough about anyone's training to comment on how people do back kicks or anything else for that matter. You haven't seen how all TKD people kick let alone karateka.
 How do you know karateka don't do very good back kicks? Even if we were to accept your premise that Kyokushin don't do kicks well, which I don't btw, how many other karateka from other styles can do amazing kicks? it doesn't mean *karate* is useless at kicks.
You are style bashing, you don't seem to actually like any style. You bashed up TKD not so long ago now it's karate's turn.


----------



## Gnarlie

I haven't been around long, but I know that Tez3 has somewhat more diverse experience than just Karate. You might want to look a bit deeper into the background and experience of the people you are insulting here.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> I think you need a doctor if you are in _chock_.
> 
> You simply don't have enough knowledge to even compare karate styles let alone compare anything to TKD. You don't know enough about anyone's training to comment on how people do back kicks or anything else for that matter. You haven't seen how all TKD people kick let alone karateka.
> How do you know karateka don't do very good back kicks? Even if we were to accept your premise that Kyokushin don't do kicks well, which I don't btw, how many other karateka from other styles can do amazing kicks? it doesn't mean *karate* is useless at kicks.
> You are style bashing, you don't seem to actually like any style. You bashed up TKD not so long ago now it's karate's turn.



You are intentionally distorting my comments, and should receive a warning for it. I have never said they don't have very good back kicks. You don't know anything about my knowledge of Karate.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Not really. I would still take the Tkdoin over a Kyokushin guy in spinning back kicks, and spin kicks overall. All else equal.



A couple of posts ago you weren't even aware of the existence of back kick in Kyokushin. Now you want to form an opinion?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> A couple of posts ago you weren't even aware of the existence of back kick in Kyokushin. Now you want to form an opinion?



I wrote that they weren't exactly known for it. Karatekas are not as known for their spinning kicks compared to TKDoins. Surely you don't dispute that?  I know of course that Karate styles (including Kyokushin) has the back kick (Ushiro -Geri)


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> You are intentionally distorting my comments, and should receive a warning for it. I have never said they don't have very good back kicks. You don't know anything about my knowledge of Karate.




_As has been said_, you didn't even know they did back kicks. And you don't really want me to re-post all your comments as well as your insults up.
If what you write up here is indicative of your knowledge of TKD and karate, then yes, we do know quite a lot about your knowledge or lack of I should say.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> _As has been said_, you didn't even know they did back kicks.



No, YOU inferred that was the case. Wrong



Tez3 said:


> And you don't really wantme to re-post all your comments as well as your insults up.
> If what you write up here is indicative of your knowledge of TKD and karate, then yes, we do know quite a lot about your knowledge or lack of I should say.



I can even grant your point: Saying practitioners overall are not very good at something, is not style bashing, or bashing at all.


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## Drose427

Just googled Kyukushin Back kick, and found more Kyukushin results of it in matches than googling TKD back kick which resulted in more how to and instructional videos......

Hard to say they arent known for it when its being used pretty frequently In kyukushij tourneys...


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## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> Go to a hardcore KKW school and ask them about their tul. Expect their eyes to pop out.





Laplace_demon said:


> You are mindboggingly stubborn





Laplace_demon said:


> The exact opposite of Gnarlies approach. I think hardcore attitudes are silly, but they do posses a certain charm. These schools all live in their own bubble, so to speak. I am far too intelligent to buy into any of it. There are pros and cons





Laplace_demon said:


> I would like to see any random black belt from a TKD school kick that fast, technical, and hard at the same time





Laplace_demon said:


> I actually go Muay Thai style with them against mitts, and disregard form (intentionally).





Laplace_demon said:


> MT and Kickboxers are trained to take hits at full contact constantly, more parts of the body as well. TKD guys are not. This is fairly trivial.





Laplace_demon said:


> Haha, yeah, his instructor GM Jae H Kim is probably a noob.





Laplace_demon said:


> TKD is burdened with counterproductive rule sets for developing fighters.





Laplace_demon said:


> while most of the WTF kicking will not work in a kickboxing or K1 arena





Laplace_demon said:


> You are not going to convince me that WTF is full contact in practise. Nonsense.





Laplace_demon said:


> My point is that TKD sport has no bearing outside of TKD for fighting. You can forget about most of those WTF kicks on the street in jeans in a dangerous situation. It wouldn't be wise to try out, even if you could. The same is true in a K1/kickboxing arena. In most fighting involving kicks and punches, training in TKD rules is counterproductive.





Laplace_demon said:


> You are so full of yourself. I think I have said all that I need.





Laplace_demon said:


> You simply don't understand dan grading





Laplace_demon said:


> I have George St Pierre on my side





Laplace_demon said:


> Kyokushin is not exactly known for it's spinning back kicks





Laplace_demon said:


> I very much doubt that you are a black belt.





Laplace_demon said:


> but traditional karate overall is not at the level of TKD


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## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> No, YOU inferred that was the case. Wrong
> 
> 
> 
> I can even grant your point: Saying practitioners overall are not very good at something, is not style bashing, or bashing at all.




Of course it is because you have no proof for a start. Writing something down doesn't make it true.


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## Gnarlie

I have noticed that this happens quite often here. Beginners with big ideas who seem to want to learn for free by coming onto the boards and making broad sweeping statements that are controversial and incorrect, and then insulting people who disagree.

The typical end point is one of two: that beginner realising that they are on a sugar pedestal, and everything that they thought was true was incorrect, or things go the other way and they get banned. Intrigued to see how this one pans out.


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## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Not really. I would still take the Tkdoin over a Kyokushin guy in spinning back kicks, and spin kicks overall. All else equal.


I'd take the individual with the better back  kick, regardless of where it came from.


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## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> I wrote that they weren't exactly known for it. Karatekas are not as known for their spinning kicks compared to TKDoins. Surely you don't dispute that?  I know of course that Karate styles (including Kyokushin) has the back kick (Ushiro -Geri)



Google-fu will get you a LOT of results for Kyokushin Ushiro Geri.

Personally I admit that I don't know enough about Kyokushin to cast aspersions about it. You seem to think differently.


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## Tez3

Gnarlie said:


> Google-fu will get you a LOT of results for Kyokushin Ushiro Geri.
> 
> Personally I admit that I don't know enough about Kyokushin to cast aspersions about it. You seem to think differently.




I know London Shootfighters teach Kyokushin karate which says a huge lot for the style. London Shoot is a hardcore gym which has sent out some very good MMA fighters so I can't see them teaching a weak or useless karate style, it's not their way.


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## Gnarlie

Tez3 said:


> I know London Shootfighters teach Kyokushin karate which says a huge lot for the style. London Shoot is a hardcore gym which has sent out some very good MMA fighters so I can't see them teaching a weak or useless karate style, it's not their way.


Lot of MMA guys seem to come out of it. Uriah Hall is one of them, and is known for his spinning kicks... hmm


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## Laplace_demon

Given that George St Pierres (one of the greatest mma guys of all time)own back kick was light years away from Joes and the fact that he himself proclaimed that TKD had the best spinning back kicks, its a no brainer.


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## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> Given that George St Pierres (one of the greatest mma guys of all time)own back kick was light years away from Joes and the fact that he himself proclaimed that TKD had the best spinning back kicks, its a no brainer.



Much as I love GSP, one man doesn't represent all of karate nor does one man's opinion make something a fact.

I proclaim that drinking one's tea without milk is the way you must drink tea. Am I correct or is that an opinion?
 Clue...You are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts.


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## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Given that George St Pierres (one of the greatest mma guys of all time)own back kick was light years away from Joes and the fact that he himself proclaimed that TKD had the best spinning back kicks, its a no brainer.


The only conclusion that is valid there is that GSP as an individual wanted to do some work on his back kick skills.

One cannot draw a conclusion about arts from that isolated case. 

THAT is a no-brainer.


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## RTKDCMB

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't want to speak too much about Kyokushin, but traditional karate overall is not at the level of TKD (that includes both KKW and ITF) in kicking. Koreans are have a definitive edge.


I think you mean to say that Karate (generally) does not have as wide a variety of kicks as TKD has.


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## Laplace_demon

I think GSP has *seen* enough spin kicks in his day to form a qualifed opinion, at the very least. He is world class and from Kyokushin background. Karate styles such as Kyokushin are like cousin arts to TKD.


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## Buka

_"The man who views life at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life."_
Muhammad Ali

Who knows, maybe some of our opinions will change over time.


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## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> I think GSP has *seen* enough spin kicks in his day to form a qualifed *opinion,* at the very least. He is world class and from Kyokushin background. Karate styles such as Kyokushin are like cousin arts to TKD.




Ah so you agree it's an opinion only! He is a world class MMA fighter not necessarily a world class karateka, you are generalising. we don't actually know what he thinks, only what is reported and that is never accurate.


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## Steve

Tez3 said:


> Laplace, you can dislike my above post as much as you like but you cannot escape the truth, that Rogan's fans are  fanatical and vile. Even after Rogan himself asked them to lay off they continued to harass and threaten Rosi. I've seen the posts and tweets and they are far worse than the few quoted below. I also know the effect on the person who received them ( who has a young son she was worried for his safety after some of the comments made to her), you have no idea what such online nastiness and bullying can have on the most sane and intelligent person. It's a tsunami of hatred that few of us, luckily, have experienced. Rogan fan's aren't really so much fan's as nasty bullies who even he disowns. With your insults to those on here it's beginning to looks if you are one of their number.
> 
> Rosi Sexton and Joe Rogan bump heads and brains on Twitter BJPENN.COM


Talk about painting with a broad brush.   Are all soccer fans fanatical and vile because some have killed people over a lost game?  I think your rhetoric is becoming a little too extreme.


----------



## TrueJim

Gnarlie said:


> The typical end point is one of two: that beginner realising that they are on a sugar pedestal...



Mmmm....sugar pedestal. Om nom nom....


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## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> Ah so you agree it's an opinion only! He is a world class MMA fighter not necessarily a world class karateka, you are generalising. we don't actually know what he thinks, only what is reported and that is never accurate.



No, he asserted that TKD has the best spinning back kicks. It wasn't "reported". Yeah, he's a mxed martial artist, meaning that he has cross trained in many different martial arts and has seen aloth. Hint*




Steve said:


> Talk about painting with a broad brush.   Are all soccer fans fanatical and vile because some have killed people over a lost game?  I think your rhetoric is becoming a little too extreme.



I don't know what she's talking about and how it relates to the discussion. Am not even a Joe Rogan fan. I never watch his shows. The karate girl can't understand that I form unbiased opinions. I do it all the time. My evaluations aren't based on wheter someone likes or dislikes me and my martial art style.


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## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> No, he asserted that TKD has the best spinning back kicks. It wasn't "reported". Yeah, he's a mxed martial artist, meaning that he has cross trained in many different martial arts and has seen aloth. Hint*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what she's talking about and how it relates to the discussion. Am not even a Joe Rogan fan. I never watch his shows. The karate girl can't understand that I form unbiased opinions. I do it all the time. My evaluations aren't based on wheter someone likes or dislikes me and my martial art style.




No GSP gave his singular opinion.

Again, put in the work and youll see a myriad of karate back kicks on the same caliber as Joes.

And your opinions arent really based in fact either......

the reason you look like a die hard Joe fan is that youve spend 16 pages thinking he is something he is not and have shut your eyes and ignired anyone whose said otherwise like a child. Which as tez explained, is exacty what joes fans did to her fighter.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> No, he asserted that TKD has the best spinning back kicks. It wasn't "reported". Yeah, he's a mxed martial artist, meaning that he has cross trained in many different martial arts and has seen aloth. Hint*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what she's talking about and how it relates to the discussion. Am not even a Joe Rogan fan. I never watch his shows. The karate girl can't understand that I form unbiased opinions. I do it all the time. My evaluations aren't based on wheter someone likes or dislikes me and my martial art style.




Who are you talking to because as sure as heck it isn't me. I'm most certainly not a 'girl' roflmao but thanks for the compliment. 
Your opinions are so far from being unbiased as it's possible to get, you come over like a Rogan _fan-_atic. Your opinions aren't even consistent. You haven't evaluated anything at all. It might be interesting if you do.


----------



## Steve

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't know what she's talking about and how it relates to the discussion. Am not even a Joe Rogan fan. I never watch his shows. The karate girl can't understand that I form unbiased opinions. I do it all the time. My evaluations aren't based on wheter someone likes or dislikes me and my martial art style.


Dude, you're doing the same thing.  Please don't think I'm taking one side or the other here.   And I don't believe for a second that you're unbiased.


----------



## Gnarlie

I'm just going to hark back to that original video and restate what GSP actually said:

He went to see JR because JR used to be a (local level) Taekwondo champion. He said that Taekwondo as a style has the best spinning back kick, and that he asked JR for advice on his form and got some corrections. He also said that JR had the best spinning back kick that GSP had seen in his life, and if JR hits someone with that kick, they are 100% going down.

Now here's my view. That clip is part of a UFC promo featuring Dana White, and there is a tendency within the UFC promo material to be rather sensationalist and to set up what people are going to say beforehand. Watch a series of TUF and this becomes obvious pretty quickly. So I think some of the hyperbole GSP is using is to sort of fit that sensationalist dynamic.

Secondly, I think GSP is applying a rule of respecting other arts and artists when he says Taekwondo has the best spinning back kicks and JR has the best back kick he has seen in his life. That's something we do in martial arts, you will come to learn. It is a form of courtesy. It may or may not mean what is said is actually true. There's also the factor of when outside an art looking in, it is easy to be dazzled by even mediocre levels of skill.

Thirdly, and bear in mind that I hold a higher Kukkiwon Taekwondo rank than JR when I say this: GSP could have gone to any reasonably high ranking Kukkiwon instructor with competition experience and gotten just the same tips he got. There is nothing exceptional about JR's back side kick. It is standard, no more, no less. As I pointed out earlier, there are a number of telegraph motions and post kick balance issues, but I do accept that those may not be what he is focusing on when kicking a bag.

As regards unbiased opinions, consider this: I have nothing to gain here by offering observations on JR's form. Nor do I have anything to gain from discussing the issue with someone whose cup is clearly full. The only reason I am here is because the truth is the truth.


----------



## Orange Lightning

Laplace_demon said:


> No, he asserted that TKD has the best spinning back kicks. It wasn't "reported". Yeah, he's a mxed martial artist, meaning that he has cross trained in many different martial arts and has seen aloth. Hint*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what she's talking about and how it relates to the discussion. Am not even a Joe Rogan fan. I never watch his shows. The karate girl can't understand that I form unbiased opinions. I do it all the time. My evaluations aren't based on wheter someone likes or dislikes me and my martial art style.



This isn't a discussion. Nothing is being "discussed". There is nothing being mulled over, explored, or exchanged in a meaningful way because you're blatantly disregarding and insulting people. It is being "argued" and entirely without the civility and respect *from you* that exists within a debate or discussion, so the same things are being repeated over and over. Basically, you have disagreements about the kicking quality of Joe Rogan and some styles. That disagreement has went on for 16 pages. You know you aren't going to change their opinion, and they aren't going to change yours. Why keep arguing on  the subject?

_"The karate girl can't understand that I form unbiased opinions"_ - Case in point. Disregarding everyone's opinion but your own is like the textbook definition of bias. The disrespect doesn't help your argument either.

I can't believe they're even still talking to you. If you want to be heard, do more listening. At the bare minimum, agree to disagree and leave it alone. Quit whacking the bee hive.


----------



## TrueJim

Orange Lightning said:


> That disagreement has went on for 16 pages. You know you aren't going to change their opinion, and they aren't going to change yours. Why keep arguing on  the subject?



*EXACTLY!*  We could be using this time to discuss more important celebrity questions, like...

...Jessica Alba vs. Willie Nelson in a taekwondo fight. Who would win?


----------



## Gnarlie

TrueJim said:


> *EXACTLY!*  We could be using this time to discuss more important celebrity questions, like...
> 
> ...Jessica Alba vs. Willie Nelson in a taekwondo fight. Who would win?



Sure Willie has something to say about Old Age And Treachery overcoming youth and skill.

It would actually be an interesting match I think. Willie Nelson practices Gongkwon Yusul, holds a fifth dan. That art covers hand and foot striking, but also groundwork and grappling.

Jessica Alba practices TKD but is to my knowledge not the holder of a dan rank.

But, even with the rules restricted to suit Alba, my money would be on Nelson, due to his greater experience.


----------



## Tez3

Gnarlie said:


> Willie Nelson practices *Gongkwon Yusul,* holds a fifth dan



I've not heard of that before, I'll have to look it up when I come back from lunch with my son. *Always* good to learn something new I find!


----------



## TrueJim

This reference ( 50 Celebrities Who Train a Form of Martial Arts Bleacher Report ) is dated 2012 and says Alba does taekwondo, but this article ( Beautiful But Deadly 3 - TV and Movie Actresses Who Could Hurt You ) is dated from last December and says she trained Tae Bo under Billy Banks.

Hmmm....this is a tough call. If Alba really has been training for 3-4 years at least, then she should have picked up some skills by now, no? Also, Alba is going to have youth on her side. Plus, some people claim that Nelson smokes (I know! Right? I'm as shocked as you are) so his lungs probably aren't what they could be.

I'm going to pick Alba on this one.


----------



## Gnarlie

TrueJim said:


> I'm going to pick Alba on this one.


----------



## Drose427

Irrelevant to the argument,

But very pertinent for the OP,

When looking into Rogan to see his rank in BJJ and how long hes been involved in MT i noticed his TKD achievements where tagged as Disputed.

For those who dont know, disputed annontations mean multiple people(i believe wikipedia said minimum of 5 on their disputed annotations explanation page) have come forward and labelled information as dubious or innaccurate.

Isnt as black/white as results would be (gonna keep digging) but since the disputed link is simply Rogan boasting on his personal website it just looks even fishier

I know i should get so wrapped up in it haha but its frustrating finding so little about it, and i feel his commitment to other MA's warrants the benefit of the doubt


----------



## elder999

Drose427 said:


> Irrelevant to the argument,
> 
> But very pertinent for the OP,
> 
> When looking into Rogan to see his rank in BJJ and how long hes been involved in MT i noticed his TKD achievements where tagged as Disputed.
> 
> For those who dont know, disputed annontations mean multiple people(i believe wikipedia said minimum of 5 on their disputed annotations explanation page) have come forward and labelled information as dubious or innaccurate.
> 
> Isnt as black/white as results would be (gonna keep digging) but since the disputed link is simply Rogan boasting on his personal website it just looks even fishier
> 
> I know i should get so wrapped up in it haha but its frustrating finding so little about it, and i feel his commitment to other MA's warrants the benefit of the doubt



Joe Rogan was Massachussets TKD champ for four years. Here he is winning the U.S. Cup in 1987


----------



## RTKDCMB

Drose427 said:


> When looking into Rogan to see his rank in BJJ and how long hes been involved in MT i noticed his TKD achievements where tagged as Disputed.
> 
> For those who dont know, disputed annontations mean multiple people(i believe wikipedia said minimum of 5 on their disputed annotations explanation page) have come forward and labelled information as dubious or innaccurate.


Due to the nature of Wikipedia it would be difficult to determine if the disputed annotations were or weren't legitimate.


----------



## Drose427

elder999 said:


> Joe Rogan was Massachussets TKD champ for four years. Here he is winning the U.S. Cup in 1987



The issue is near all the details hes personally given dont line up with how the Nationals are/were conducted.

I believe even the weight classes were off, but i dont now when Sport TKD took on the  fly, bantam, etc. Over the old light, middle, heavy.

Aside from the grandchampion and fighting outside weightclasses bit(which ive never heard of at an USTU/USAT/*insert national Governing body event, not saying its impossible however) the details make it seem like a minor associatons tournament.

Our associations annual tournament is called the U.S. Open. Saying you won a U.S. Open is not the same as winning THE Usat(formerly Ustu or aau) Open, or make you a state or national champion. If i win Grand Champion next year in BB division, that doesnt make me the WV TKD state champ.

Theres an un-official compilation website of records and major event winners and Pan Am, Ustu, and Aau all through the 80s nationals were won by other people, but Keyword Unofficial

Another issue is other THAT video, which cant definitively be contributed to a specific event outside of what joe claims, is the only real documentation if him and TKD.

Nobody, even those who were active and involved with Sport TKD at the time that ive spoken with, seems to remember him at all. Even spending hours online whereoithers have tried to find more info, the closest youll find is on another forum one poster saying he knows a guy who claims to have trained with joe, and said Joe kicked hard.

Theres just A LOT of skethciness and conflicting information from what hes described. Thats part of why I've tried so hard to find a definitive answer or at the very least outside anecdotes, and part of why it bugs me. 

I dont like leaving questions unanswered 



RTKDCMB said:


> Due to the nature of Wikipedia it would be difficult to determine if the disputed annotations were or weren't legitimate.


Basically haha and the struggle of curioisty continues!


----------



## elder999

Drose427 said:


> The issue is near all the details hes personally given dont line up with how the Nationals are/were conducted.
> 
> I believe even the weight classes were off, but i dont now when Sport TKD took on the  fly, bantam, etc. Over the old light, middle, heavy.
> 
> Aside from the grandchampion and fighting outside weightclasses bit(which ive never heard of at an USTU/USAT/*insert national Governing body event, not saying its impossible however) the details make it seem like a minor associatons tournament.
> 
> Our associations annual tournament is called the U.S. Open. Saying you won a U.S. Open is not the same as winning THE Usat(formerly Ustu or aau) Open, or make you a state or national champion. If i win Grand Champion next year in BB division, that doesnt make me the WV TKD state champ.
> 
> Theres an un-official compilation website of records and major event winners and Pan Am, Ustu, and Aau all through the 80s nationals were won by other people, but Keyword Unofficial
> 
> Another issue is other THAT video, which cant definitively be contributed to a specific event outside of what joe claims, is the only real documentation if him and TKD.
> 
> Nobody, even those who were active and involved with Sport TKD at the time that ive spoken with, seems to remember him at all. Even spending hours online whereoithers have tried to find more info, the closest youll find is on another forum one poster saying he knows a guy who claims to have trained with joe, and said Joe kicked hard.
> 
> Theres just A LOT of skethciness and conflicting information from what hes described. Thats part of why I've tried so hard to find a definitive answer or at the very least outside anecdotes, and part of why it bugs me.
> 
> I dont like leaving questions unanswered
> 
> 
> Basically haha and the struggle of curioisty continues!



Shame you don't know more about your sport's history-the USTU/USAT came out of  US  Amateur Athletic Union Tae Kwon Do,  and I believe it's there that you'll see him winning championships.

It's only "sketchy" when you consider that it was _pre_USTU, _pre_internet, and, likely, _pre_ when you were born.....I mean, that's *28* years ago, fella....

AAU Taekwondo Home


----------



## Drose427

elder999 said:


> Shame you don't know more about your sport's history-the USTU/USAT came out of  US  Amateur Athletic Union Tae Kwon Do,  and I believe it's there that you'll see him winning championships.
> 
> It's only "sketchy" when you consider that it was _pre_USTU, _pre_internet, and, likely, _pre_ when you were born.....I mean, that's *28* years ago, fella....
> 
> AAU Taekwondo Home



Again, you cant cling to video like its blatantly AAU Nationals. Theres not a single thing hinting towards that...

Ive also never heard of AAU even having the Grand Championship Role, even in the 80-90s, as an idicator of beating the other BB champions.

Even if it did, even in the 80's there were STILL more weight classes than what hes describing. If GC is supposedly earned by beating the other weight classes, howd he get the crown for only fighting in 3 of 8?

Now, AAU has team point sparring now with light, middle, heavy, but past or present have fun trying to find an overall AAU GC as opposed weight class champ.

In 1987, Nationals  had official USTU nationals, Doug Baker took silver in featherweifgt that year.

As for the pre-internet part, if you look, you can fairly easily find national championship records predating even 1987, for dang near every association you can think of. So yeah, it is pretty sketchy that Joes a "National Champion" nobodys heard of or even remembers ever competing at that level. When someone competes or accomplishes something at that level, there tends to be some form of records or at least outside corroboratting anecdotes. Its how we can still findout who won early world games, pan-ams, etc. If you look it isnt that hard. Youll find official/unofficial results, medals and pedestal pics, pics/viddo clips in general. 

But with Joe, theres nothing other than one unverifable video clip and the exact words coming from his mouth that dont add up.


----------



## TrueJim

Are we done playing *Celebrity Taekwondo Fight*?

*Ryan Phillippe* vs. *Katheryn Winnick*. Fight!


----------



## Tames D

Tez3 said:


> Who are you talking to because as sure as heck it isn't me. I'm most certainly not a 'girl' roflmao but thanks for the compliment.
> Your opinions are so far from being unbiased as it's possible to get, you come over like a Rogan _fan-_atic. Your opinions aren't even consistent. You haven't evaluated anything at all. It might be interesting if you do.


You are not a 'girl'. And Laplace is not a 'boy', as you imply in post #180. What is your trip?


----------

