# The Guard in self defense?



## Hanzou (Jul 2, 2015)

This topic popped up twice in the grappling forum, and I felt it would be an interesting topic to discuss here.

I felt that this was better served for the self defense forum instead of just the grappling forum is because several self-defense styles have incorporated the position into their fighting systems. Krav Maga, Toshindo, and Jeet Kun Do being a few examples.

However some self defense advocates stress that the guard is a bad position to be in, and should be avoided.

To help this conversation along, here's information about the position;

Guard grappling - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

So my questions are as follows; What is the Guard's place in self defense? Is the Guard a dominant, inferior, or neutral position? Should people learn to fight from Guard, or better utilize their training time elsewhere?


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## RowdyAz (Jul 2, 2015)

I think it's definitely worth while taking the time to learn about the different guards and so forth because once the fight goes to the ground that is the reality you're faced with. Escapes are a big part of ground fighting to, so I find any learning would be beneficial to ones skill set. Guard is a dominant position in general and even an un trained fighter generally has an idea how to make the most of it


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## Buka (Jul 2, 2015)

If we're talkng self defense here - it all depends on the individual. I know I should click on that link and read it, but I ain't going to. (what a jerk I am) I'm a small guy, if you're good enough you'll probably overpower me and get me down, and I'm going to get my legs around you, whether you like it or not, whether you believe that or not. It's where I spent most of my grappling career, be that good or bad. 

If you're a more experienced grappler with a will as strong as mine, then I go out fighting, which ain't a bad way to go when you think about it. Better than being hit by a bus.  If you aren't a better grappler - if you don't defeat me in the first ten seconds, maybe even five, the last thing you're going to say in my guard is, "_No, wait_." I live in closed guard, I die in closed guard. Either way, I'm good with that, it's home to me.

Ain't fighting a grand thing? Also - all you Jits guys suck, you really do.


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## drop bear (Jul 2, 2015)

Don't grapple of your back if you can avoid it. Especially in self defence where your opportunity to escape is limited.

But if you are on your back you want to be in guard. So you need to know it.


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## drop bear (Jul 2, 2015)

If you are talking closed guard. It is frowned upon should hitting be involved.
A Glossary of Guards Part 1 The Closed Guard

Because it is very easy to get stacked or bashed from there. Which means that if you are in guard you need to be there for a reason. You have some sort of offence in mind and not just waiting.

We take this back to sd and start working with people who do not have a sophisticated guard game. And at that point the rule becomes. Avoid guard and avoid closed guard.


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## RowdyAz (Jul 2, 2015)

Makes sense just stand up and reset. No playing around on the ground if you can avoid it. Alot of the time once under pressure training goes out the window. Mark Hunt said it best " one punch in the face and there goes your black belt " unless people are fighting for real at training it isn't truly pressure tested. Any less is a scenario.


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## Buka (Jul 2, 2015)

drop bear said:


> If you are talking closed guard. It is frowned upon should hitting be involved.
> A Glossary of Guards Part 1 The Closed Guard
> 
> Because it is very easy to get stacked or bashed from there. Which means that if you are in guard you need to be there for a reason. You have some sort of offence in mind and not just waiting.
> ...



Depends on what your game is. Mine is closed guard. If I'm on the ground with you, and I'm _not_ in top position, where I'd much rather be, then I want you in my closed guard. You may very well smoke me, but that's where I want to be. It's where I live.


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## drop bear (Jul 2, 2015)

Buka said:


> Depends on what your game is. Mine is closed guard. If I'm on the ground with you, and I'm _not_ in top position, where I'd much rather be, then I want you in my closed guard. You may very well smoke me, but that's where I want to be. It's where I live.



Why. What advantage do you have?

I was the same. And had to change to stand up or don't get put on my back in the first place. Now I can't submit quality bjjers. But I do get standing escapes.


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## Hanzou (Jul 2, 2015)

drop bear said:


> If you are talking closed guard. It is frowned upon should hitting be involved.
> A Glossary of Guards Part 1 The Closed Guard
> 
> Because it is very easy to get stacked or bashed from there. Which means that if you are in guard you need to be there for a reason. You have some sort of offence in mind and not just waiting.
> ...



We're talking about the guard in general, with all of its variations. Btw, Closed guard variations like high guard, rubber guard, and SW guard are designed to deal with stacking and bashing. Some of those variations have been used to great effect in MMA.


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## drop bear (Jul 3, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> We're talking about the guard in general, with all of its variations. Btw, Closed guard variations like high guard, rubber guard, and SW guard are designed to deal with stacking and bashing. Some of those variations have been used to great effect in MMA.



Yes. Then you have another issue for self defence in that you are almost always required to run lean on ideas and shallow in concept.

If it takes 3 different guards to function down there,with all the relevant concepts that surround that. Then you may be better off teaching people to get up.

Which is where we get the stand up,sweep submit concept.


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## RowdyAz (Jul 3, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Yes. Then you have another issue for self defence in that you are almost always required to run lean on ideas and shallow in concept.
> 
> If it takes 3 different guards to function down there,with all the relevant concepts that surround that. Then you may be better off teaching people to get up.
> 
> Which is where we get the stand up,sweep submit concept.


I agree,Time spent on the ground is exposing yourself too kicks to the head from a third party. Stand up at first opportunity, less time playing around in guard the better. Good stuff to know but I think time consumed on the ground is time wasted if you have the option to get up.


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## Buka (Jul 3, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Why. What advantage do you have?



I'd rather be on top, but - I strike from my closed guard well. Learned striking from the closed guard from day one. And I liked it from day one. I don't strike too good from any other bottom position. A short while later I learned a collar choke from closed guard, which I've trained a lot. I'm not really sure of the proper jiu-jitsu name for the particular collar choke I use, but I've had a lot of success with it and have been working it for twenty years. Trained it with every concievable type of clothing an opponent might wear - winter coats, jackets, t-shirts, wife beaters, nice suits, sweatshirts, dress shirts. The only thing I have trouble with if it's a t-shirt with the collar cut off.(the shirt usually gives way) Muscle heads use to wear them but I haven't seen that in years


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## Hanzou (Jul 3, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Yes. Then you have another issue for self defence in that you are almost always required to run lean on ideas and shallow in concept.
> 
> If it takes 3 different guards to function down there,with all the relevant concepts that surround that. Then you may be better off teaching people to get up.



Except that's not how the guard works. In order to do  basic submissions like the Kimura, triangle choke, or armbar for example, I have to open my closed guard. Standard punch block defense also requires you to alternate between an open and closed guard.

 If someone passes my guard, I may have to switch to half guard in order to stop the advance. If the guy stands up while I'm transitioning in closed guard, and he's not letting me stand up, I need to utilize an open guard in order to get distance in order to stand up, trap him  to control him, or sweep him. If he's too much to handle in closed guard and I need more control, I can either use SW guard, Rubber guard, or something else.

You should be active while in guard, and you should be skilled in more than one guard type. You shouldn't just sit in closed guard and hope for the best, and then give up once your guard is passed.

I can see why someone would view the position negatively if they think that you're just supposed to use a single guard per encounter and just sit there.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 3, 2015)

Situational context determines whether going to the ground is a good idea or a bad idea. Good idea or not, if the fight goes to the ground, I would prefer to be on top. If I do end up on the bottom, I would prefer to immediately escape to my feet or reverse to a top position.

Unfortunately, things don't always go the way we would want them to in a fight. If someone gets on top of you in a fight and you aren't able to immediately escape, then the guard allows you to equalize the situation, protect yourself, and work to set up chokes, joint locks, strikes, reversals, and even escape to your feet.


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## Crazy Eyes (Jul 3, 2015)

If you're worried about self-defense, get a gun.  It'll be hard for Joe For That to deal with Mr. 45ACP.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 3, 2015)

Crazy Eyes
a gun is not the topic of this thread the Guard Position is.  Please stay on topic so we can discuss the guard in SD


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## Hanzou (Jul 3, 2015)

Who knew that jumping guard was part of Ninjutsu kata?


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## Crazy Eyes (Jul 3, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Crazy Eyes
> a gun is not the topic of this thread the Guard Position is.  Please stay on topic so we can discuss the guard in SD


My apologies.  I just saw self-defense in the title and jumped right in.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 3, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Who knew that jumping guard was part of Ninjutsu kata?


Believe it or not, I saw that sequence in a (Japanese language) book by Hatsumi decades ago, before there was any significant awareness of BJJ in the US or Japan. As in the video, there's no actual fighting from the guard - just an immediate sweep followed by kicks.

Edit - some googling reveals that the book in question was published in 1964.


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## Hanzou (Jul 3, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Believe it or not, I saw that sequence in a (Japanese language) book by Hatsumi decades ago, before there was any significant awareness of BJJ in the US or Japan. As in the video, there's no actual fighting from the guard - just an immediate sweep followed by kicks.
> 
> Edit - some googling reveals that the book in question was published in 1964.



Considering Hatsumi's Judo background before he "discovered" Ninjutsu, that doesn't surprise me.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 3, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Considering Hatsumi's Judo background before he "discovered" Ninjutsu, that doesn't surprise me.


It's well-documented that Hatsumi learned Togakure Ryu and the other arts which go into the Bujinkan from Toshitsugu Takamatsu, so if the scare quotes around "discovered" are meant to indicate that he actually secretly fabricated the art, then that accusation should be aimed at Takamatsu.

I considered that there might be some judo influence in the technique, but I've never seen that particular sequence (jump guard to double ankle grab sweep to kick) in any judo reference. Elder could probably tell us if there's some obscure judo source for the kata.


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## Hanzou (Jul 3, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It's well-documented that Hatsumi learned Togakure Ryu and the other arts which go into the Bujinkan from Toshitsugu Takamatsu, so if the scare quotes around "discovered" are meant to indicate that he actually secretly fabricated the art, then that accusation should be aimed at Takamatsu.



Duly noted. 



> I considered that there might be some judo influence in the technique, but I've never seen that particular sequence (jump guard to double ankle grab sweep to kick) in any judo reference. Elder could probably tell us if there's some obscure judo source for the kata.



Perhaps it emerged from Judo's sacrifice throws? In either case, I think it's interesting that the Akban view jump guard as a self defense method.


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## marques (Jul 3, 2015)

Guard on Self-defence? With good quality ground floor and only one and untrained opponent? I think it's ok. 
But I would prefer to be stand up, always. To see (better and more), to run (readily), to fight (faster)...


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## Hanzou (Jul 3, 2015)

marques said:


> Guard on Self-defence? With good quality ground floor and only one and untrained opponent? I think it's ok.
> But I would prefer to be stand up, always. To see (better and more), to run (readily), to fight (faster)...



Eh, I think the guard has proven to be just as effective against trained opponents as untrained opponents.

As for ground quality, unless you're rolling around in lava, or a bed of hyperthermic needles, you'll be just fine.


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## ballen0351 (Jul 3, 2015)

Guard is fine temporarily but then what.  You just going to lay there and hope someone calls the police or he gets bored and gives up?  When your talking self defense you goal should be get away.  Hard to do laying on your back holding the other guy between your legs


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 3, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Guard is fine temporarily but then what.  You just going to lay there and hope someone calls the police or he gets bored and gives up?  When your talking self defense you goal should be get away.  Hard to do laying on your back holding the other guy between your legs


Did you read my earlier post? The point of guard is absolutely not to just lay there and hope the other guy gives up.


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## ballen0351 (Jul 3, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Did you read my earlier post? The point of guard is absolutely not to just lay there and hope the other guy gives up.


Yep read your post.  I wasn't addressing my comments to you.  I was answering the original question about the guard.  The guard is fine but then what.  There is no single perfect technique.  It would be the ssme as asking what role should the punch play in self defense.  Well the punch is fine but then what.  There is no single thing you can do that poof you defended yourself. .. well except maybe running farther and faster then your attacker


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## Hanzou (Jul 3, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Guard is fine temporarily but then what.  You just going to lay there and hope someone calls the police or he gets bored and gives up?



No, you're either going to break their arms, break their legs, choke them out, or sweep them.

All from the guard position.


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## marques (Jul 4, 2015)

> Eh, I think the guard has proven to be just as effective against trained opponents as untrained opponents.
> As for ground quality, unless you're rolling around in lava, or a bed of hyperthermic needles, you'll be just fine.


Your opinion. 
My opinion is that not perfect floor bored me in a real situation (and I always trained on concrete, or wood floor at the best). And ground fight against trained opponents takes more time than against untrained opponents or from stand up, usually.
Consistently, I need half a second to submit from the guard (if they're not too fat). Anyway, I still prefer stand up. Go to the guard also takes time...


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## ballen0351 (Jul 4, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> No, you're either going to break their arms, break their legs, choke them out, or sweep them.
> 
> All from the guard position.


Right all extra stuff not the "guard" itself.  So does the guard have a place in self defense sure sure small temporary one more like a place holder.  But the guard itself is pointless


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## Hanzou (Jul 4, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Right all extra stuff not the "guard" itself.  So does the guard have a place in self defense sure sure small temporary one more like a place holder.  But the guard itself is pointless



What a ridiculous line of argumentation. The guard is the position that allows those techniques to be performed. Performing a Kimura or a sweep from guard isn't extra stuff, it's what you're supposed to do while in that position. So no, you wouldn't just be lying there with you legs wrapped around your opponent, you'd be on the attack.


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## Hanzou (Jul 4, 2015)

marques said:


> Your opinion.
> My opinion is that not perfect floor bored me in a real situation (and I always trained on concrete, or wood floor at the best). And ground fight against trained opponents takes more time than against untrained opponents or from stand up, usually.
> Consistently, I need half a second to submit from the guard (if they're not too fat). Anyway, I still prefer stand up. Go to the guard also takes time...



Fighters have used the guard in professional fights, so yes it does work against skilled opponents.

Clearly fighting against a skilled opponent may take more time, but there are times when you simply can't control the tempo, and have to wait for an opening. There's also times where you'll be forced to the ground, or being on the ground gives you an advantage. The guard plays right into that. Being able to remain standing, or maintaining top position might be ideal, but sometimes you're not in an ideal situation.


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## Danny T (Jul 4, 2015)

In full agreement that guard is more than just laying on your back with your legs wrapped around the opponent. One 'should' be attacking and moving into other positions from guard. Within the attacks out of guard if they fail one should be able to transition back into guard, regain control and attack again. All a part of the guard game.
However, the guard just as any other part of the game can be defeated.


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## ballen0351 (Jul 4, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> What a ridiculous line of argumentation. The guard is the position that allows those techniques to be performed. Performing a Kimura or a sweep from guard isn't extra stuff, it's what you're supposed to do while in that position. So no, you wouldn't just be lying there with you legs wrapped around your opponent, you'd be on the attack.


It isn't the guard either.  Your making my point for me.  The guard is nothing it's a place holder and temporary position it's not attacking or defending.  The actual guard is like a stance buy on the ground.  With out the sweep or Kimura or any other "extra" technique the guard is just laying there.


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## Hanzou (Jul 4, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> It isn't the guard either.  Your making my point for me.  The guard is nothing it's a place holder and temporary position it's not attacking or defending.  The actual guard is like a stance buy on the ground.  With out the sweep or Kimura or any other "extra" technique the guard is just laying there.



So if I used my closed guard to tighten my legs around someone's waist to make them feel uncomfortable, and break their posture with hip movement, and grips, that's not attacking them?


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## FriedRice (Jul 4, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> So my questions are as follows; What is the Guard's place in self defense? Is the Guard a dominant, inferior, or neutral position? Should people learn to fight from Guard, or better utilize their training time elsewhere?



This is such a difficult question to answer as there are so many variables.

Like someone who don't know much about BJJ would think that it's a bad position in SD. And they usually thinks that this is all that a BJJ would do, is to pull guard. Worse, they usually thinks that this is all that an MMA fighter would do, which is pretty funny and shows that they don't really understand what's going on when they're watching an MMA fight. 

If all that I knew was BJJ and had to fight in the streets. I would close the distance, clinch, and with the momentum.....try to lift them up as high as possible and crash them down onto the cement with my body weigh following down right on top of them for the ride. They should be pretty hurt right now.  Then I'd get the full mount, establish control and start raining punches. And the crappy, untrained punches of a BJJ only guy, is still going to do a lot of damage when it's raining downwards with optimum leverage...striking the other guy's head that is sandwiched to the cement with very little room for head movement to dodge.  

Why pull guard for? I'd train guard though, all types of guards....for offense and defense...all day w/o a complaint. Because if someone was kicking my *** standing up....and then, proceed to kick my *** on the ground also.....then the Guard is my BEST option to stay alive.


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## ballen0351 (Jul 4, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> So if I used my closed guard to tighten my legs around someone's waist to make them feel uncomfortable, and break their posture with hip movement, and grips, that's not attacking them?


No


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## Danny T (Jul 4, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> So if I used my closed guard to tighten my legs around someone's waist to make them feel uncomfortable, and break their posture with hip movement, and grips, that's not attacking them?


It would certainly be a major part of a guard attack. Just as stepping in aggressively is a part of a striking attack.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 4, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> It isn't the guard either.  Your making my point for me.  The guard is nothing it's a place holder and temporary position it's not attacking or defending.  *The actual guard is like a stance buy on the ground.*  With out the sweep or Kimura or any other "extra" technique the guard is just laying there.



Using the stance analogy - if the title of the thread was "the boxing stance in self-defense", would you be making comments about standing around in a boxing stance like a statue waiting for someone to call the police? Or would you recognize from context the question concerned the usefulness of the boxing stance as a mobile platform for executing defensive and offensive techniques?

For what it's worth, when people who actually train in the use of the guard speak of "developing one's guard" or "learning guard techniques", they are talking about the whole shebang - protecting oneself, controlling the opponent, and executing chokes, jointlocks, sweeps, and even strikes from the guard. (Personally, I also include escaping to my feet as an important aspect of the guard game, but not everybody stretches the term that far.)


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## marques (Jul 4, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> So if I used my closed guard to tighten my legs around someone's waist to make them feel uncomfortable, and break their posture with hip movement, and grips, that's not attacking them?


Are you talking about to stretch your legs from the guard? Well done (above waist) it is my half a second submission or 'submission'. I don't understand why virtually everyone try to do very complex things from the guard before try this one! That doesn't work (only?) against very big or very fat persons.


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## Hanzou (Jul 4, 2015)

Danny T said:


> It would certainly be a major part of a guard attack. Just as stepping in aggressively is a part of a striking attack.



Well there would be pressure and possible pain being applied from the leg compression on waist. That should be considered an attack.


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## Hanzou (Jul 4, 2015)

marques said:


> Are you talking about to stretch your legs from the guard? Well done (above waist) it is my half a second submission or 'submission'. I don't understand why virtually everyone try to do very complex things from the guard before try this one! That doesn't work (only?) against very big or very fat persons.



Nope. Just talking about closed guard. Some guys and girls have very powerful legs, and their guards can feel like vices when applied.


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## Chrisoro (Jul 4, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> The guard is nothing it's a place holder and temporary position it's not attacking or defending.



No, the guard is not a static position. The guard is an active and dynamic defense strategy. Someone just lying there with their legs around an opponent cannot be said to have a very good guard, as a good guard constitutes constant posture breaking, active defense against strikes and passes, and constantly threatening with sweeps and submissions. While it can be argued that the sweeps and submissions is separate techniques from the guard, the way to get there requires and active and dynamic guard.


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## Buka (Jul 4, 2015)

Wouldn't it be great if we got to choreograph the few, if any, actual fights in real life? My attacker - she would be a six foot tall, dark haired beauty with a short skirt trying to kick me in the head repeatedly. And hopefull, not too fast.

We can't even dictate the circumstances of a fight, other than to eliminate some. I'm not going to get attacked at 2 a.m going to my car. The only way I'm outside at 2 a.m is if my house is on fire. Socially, I'm never in a place where people I don't know are drinking. I don't have to be in high crime areas anymore, so I'm not. Yeah, yeah, I know a fight can happen anywhere, but many of them are eliminated by what I do or don't do.

As for running away from a fight - I can skedaddle out of someplace if I see or sense trouble brewing. But to actually run away fast if trouble was coming at me, that ain't happening. I'd get taken down in thirty yards and have to fight anyway, so running is no longer an option for me. I wish it were.

That leaves the fight itself. If I could choreograph it, we'd be standing up, in close, striking. That's my first home, it's where I love to be. The last damn place I want to ever go is to the ground. But maybe I fall down, get knocked down, get taken down or slip. Most folks are bigger and stronger than me, I usually end up on the bottom. If so, I want to get my guard. My closed guard. You're finished there, sucker, I ain't letting you get away, it's where I attack from, has been for twenty years. The only hope a person has is to get their *** out of my guard, if he's there for a full thirty seconds he's going to get knocked out or beaten senseless. The guard is the only place I'm really confident throwing strikes from, other than standing. It is such a fine place to strike from. You have to have a strong active core to do it, and you have to have trained the position - but I have a strong active core and have trained the **** out of that position.


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## FriedRice (Jul 4, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> No



Man, you don't know what the BJJ guard is then. When 2 equally trained BJJ are grappling in this position, it's a constant struggle with most major muscle groups being strained. Any slight rest or release of pressure that's detected by the other guy, could mean getting swept or submitted. They are not just laying there. 

It's equally or even more exhausting than pure standup, striking sparring....where you throw a combo or even flurries, but then you can drop back and recover before going again.


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## ballen0351 (Jul 4, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Using the stance analogy - if the title of the thread was "the boxing stance in self-defense", would you be making comments about standing around in a boxing stance like a statue waiting for someone to call the police? Or would you recognize from context the question concerned the usefulness of the boxing stance as a mobile platform for executing defensive and offensive techniques?


Yep I would.  Just like when I said if the topic was the punch I said then what next.  There is no 1 singular thing that =s self defense short of perhaps shooting someone or running away.  The guard is fine for what it is but it's not self defense it's setting the table to use other techniques


> For what it's worth, when people who actually train in the use of the guard speak of "developing one's guard" or "learning guard techniques", they are talking about the whole shebang - protecting oneself, controlling the opponent, and executing chokes, jointlocks, sweeps, and even strikes from the guard. (Personally, I also include escaping to my feet as an important aspect of the guard game, but not everybody stretches the term that far.)


Yes but like I said those are other techniques not the "guard"


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## ballen0351 (Jul 4, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Man, you don't know what the BJJ guard is then. When 2 equally trained BJJ are grappling in this position, it's a constant struggle with most major muscle groups being strained. Any slight rest or release of pressure that's detected by the other guy, could mean getting swept or submitted. They are not just laying there.
> 
> It's equally or even more exhausting than pure standup, striking sparring....where you throw a combo or even flurries, but then you can drop back and recover before going again.


That's great but that's not self defense your not going to squeeze a murderer or mugger or rapist into submission with your thighs in guard.  It's very important in the sport of BJJ but we're talking about just the guard in self defense


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## ballen0351 (Jul 4, 2015)

Chrisoro said:


> While it can be argued that the sweeps and submissions is separate techniques from the guard, .


They are separate


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## Hanzou (Jul 4, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> The guard is fine for what it is but it's not self defense it's setting the table to use other techniques"



Techniques that wouldn't be as easy or efficient to apply if you weren't in the guard.


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Well there would be pressure and possible pain being applied from the leg compression on waist. That should be considered an attack.



Gaining better position can and should be considered an attack. So attacking from guard does not necessarily mean you are actually hurting people.

So to compare this to striking as a concept, slipping may be considered a defence by a beginner. But it is an attack as you get more experienced.

And all of this moves the tactics away from submission and towards position.

Hence the quote.


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> They are separate



No. You are suggesting a very limited way of looking at how to work self defence. The striking and submissions are part of the set ups and positioning.

So if I am on my back for example I could attack with a guillotine choke. But it will not work unless I have guard.

A common defence from guillotine choke is to defend the guard and slip into side control. No guard. No choke. (except under rare head arm variations)

This is a very common grappling mistake trying to do a submission without the set up.

The best fighters have better set ups. That is their secret sauce.


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## ballen0351 (Jul 5, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Techniques that wouldn't be as easy or efficient to apply if you weren't in the guard.


I totally agree with you.  I'm just saying your not using guard alone. Your using other techniques


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## ballen0351 (Jul 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> No. You are suggesting a very limited way of looking at how to work self defence.


No I'm saying self defense is far more complicated then any single move or techniques.  The guard all by itself isn't enough 


> The striking and submissions are part of the set ups and positioning.
> 
> So if I am on my back for example I could attack with a guillotine choke. But it will not work unless I have guard.
> 
> ...


Yep I agree they all set up OTHER techniques from the guard because the guard alone won't work.


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## kuniggety (Jul 5, 2015)

I don't understand what the argument is. The guard is the setup to use many techniques. It is an offensive position that turns the tables and allows you to attack from what many would consider a defensive position (the bottom). How would anyone consider it not to be a self defense technique?

Furthermore, the guard itself CAN be enough. You can indefinitely clinch/hold someone on your closed guard just to control them until help arrives.


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## Buka (Jul 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> I totally agree with you.  I'm just saying your not using guard alone. Your using other techniques



I agree. I'm thinking we could say that about a lot of things in the Arts.


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## drop bear (Jul 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> No I'm saying self defense is far more complicated then any single move or techniques.  The guard all by itself isn't enough
> 
> Yep I agree they all set up OTHER techniques from the guard because the guard alone won't work.



Yeah. Ok. 

But.

When you say that the guard itself is not enough mabye you should do a submission or something from there. I was taking that as a given. I mean who just trains the guard with out applying it in some way?


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. Ok.
> 
> But.
> 
> When you say that the guard itself is not enough mabye you should do a submission or something from there. I was taking that as a given. I mean who just trains the guard with out applying it in some way?


It may be a given but the original topic was only about the guard not all the extra "givens"


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 5, 2015)

kuniggety said:


> Furthermore, the guard itself CAN be enough. You can indefinitely clinch/hold someone on your closed guard just to control them until help arrives.


How do you know help is coming ? How long you going to wait for help?   
Your attacked alone in your house it could be hours or days before people start wondering where you are.  You just going to hold the attacker in guard until your newspapers start to stack up and your neighbors call the police to check on you?  No of course not.  Your going to move from the guard to something else to end the situation and get away or get help


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 5, 2015)

Buka said:


> I agree. I'm thinking we could say that about a lot of things in the Arts.


Absolutely there isn't a single perfect self defense technique.  Someone said earlier in the post pull a gun.  I went to a call last night a guy was shot point blank in the face and was walking and talking (kinda)  with a hole in his face.  There always needs to be a "what next" until your totally out of the situation


----------



## FriedRice (Jul 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> That's great but that's not self defense your not going to squeeze a murderer or mugger or rapist into submission with your thighs in guard.  It's very important in the sport of BJJ but we're talking about just the guard in self defense



Like I said, you don't know what the BJJ Guard is. The squeezing,  as you put it....is to maintain control while setting up for something...whether a sweep or submission. Don't you think that someone in your guard is going to try to get out of it while also, striking at you? The squeezing is to limit their attacks and struggles. 

A lot of this depends on the skill level of the BJJ. Some play it safe by getting the guard first, establish control, then sweep or submission. Others, starts going for the triangle before they even hit the ground.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 5, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Like I said, you don't know what the BJJ Guard is.  The squeezing,  as you put it....is to maintain control while setting up for something...whether a sweep or submission. Don't you think that someone in your guard is going to try to get out of it while also, striking at you? The squeezing is to limit their attacks and struggles.


AND you even said it your setting up for something.  SOMETHING isnt guard its SOMETHING else


> . Others, starts going for the triangle before they even hit the ground.


wonderful and irrelevant to the topic


----------



## FriedRice (Jul 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> AND you even said it your setting up for something.  SOMETHING isnt guard its SOMETHING else
> 
> wonderful and irrelevant to the topic



Well you obviously don't train and therefore don't know what the BJJ Guard is....since you obviously still thinks that the Guard only means lying there with legs around someone.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 5, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Well you obviously don't train and therefore don't know what the BJJ Guard is....since you obviously still thinks that the Guard only means lying there with legs around someone.


Well obviously


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 5, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> ...is to maintain control while setting up for _*something*_...whether a _*sweep or submission*_. Don't you think that someone in your guard is going to try to get out of it while also, striking at you? The squeezing is to limit their attacks and struggles.
> 
> A lot of this depends on the skill level of the BJJ. Some play it safe by getting the guard first, establish control, _*then sweep or submission*_. Others, starts going for the triangle before they even hit the ground.





FriedRice said:


> Well you obviously don't train and therefore don't know what the BJJ Guard is....since you obviously still thinks that the Guard only means lying there with legs around someone.


Well Obviously you believe the guard isnt enough or obviously  you wouldn't need to set up for "something."  Obviously if you need to "Sweep or Submission" then obviously the guard alone isnt enough.  Obviously its obvious that you obviously agree with what I said from the start that obviously the guard alone isnt enough obviously


----------



## FriedRice (Jul 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Well Obviously you believe the guard isnt enough or obviously  you wouldn't need to set up for "something."  Obviously if you need to "Sweep or Submission" then obviously the guard alone isnt enough.  Obviously its obvious that you obviously agree with what I said from the start that obviously the guard alone isnt enough obviously



Well obviously you still don't know what the BJJ Guard is.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 5, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Well obviously you still don't know what the BJJ Guard is.


Obviously


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 5, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Well obviously you still don't know what the BJJ Guard is.


So your attacked you fall on your back and you end up in guard.  What do you do now?  He's trying to stab you........now what?


----------



## FriedRice (Jul 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> So your attacked you fall on your back and you end up in guard.  What do you do now?  He's trying to stab you........now what?



Well if it were you, you'd get  stabbed to death since you don't know how to work the BJJ Guard.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 5, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Well if it were you, you'd get  stabbed to death since you don't know how to work the BJJ Guard.


Yeah we established that I'm asking you since your obviously an obvious BJJ expert so ............


----------



## Hanzou (Jul 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. Ok.
> 
> But.
> 
> When you say that the guard itself is not enough mabye you should do a submission or something from there. I was taking that as a given. I mean who just trains the guard with out applying it in some way?



People who don't train in the guard, or know little about the position, believe that its a static position. They don't realize how active it is, and how a skilled guard player will utilize many different types of guards to get a desired outcome.

This is why you see so many laughable guard passes from other arts, or someone like Ballen saying you just sit there and take a nap until help arrives.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 5, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> People who don't train in the guard, or know little about the position, believe that its a static position. They don't realize how active it is, and how a skilled guard player will utilize many different types of guards to get a desired outcome.
> 
> This is why you see so many laughable guard passes from other arts, or someone like Ballen saying you just sit there and take a nap until help arrives.


I've never said it was static(I may have over simplified it for typing purposes I'm on my phone so it's not as easy to get full on technical on every topic)  I said it's  not complete.  It needs you to so another technique to fully defend yourself.  Since fried rice was chicken and won't answer the question I'll ask you.  Your attacked guys trying to stab you.  You fall and end up in guard he's still stabbing at you what so you do to stop him


----------



## FriedRice (Jul 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Yeah we established that I'm asking you since your obviously an obvious BJJ expert so ............



Well I'd run and call 911 for you, Police and Ambulance.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 5, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Well I'd run and call 911 for you, Police and Ambulance.


Thanks I knew you loved me


----------



## Hanzou (Jul 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> I've never said it was static(I may have over simplified it for typing purposes I'm on my phone so it's not as easy to get full on technical on every topic)  I said it's  not complete.  It needs you to so another technique to fully defend yourself.  Since fried rice was chicken and won't answer the question I'll ask you.  Your attacked guys trying to stab you.  You fall and end up in guard he's still stabbing at you what so you do to stop him



You need to break his posture so that he never gets proper balance or posture. While doing that, you need to attempt to control and isolate the arm he's using to stab you. Once you accomplish that, you need to perform an arm lock or shoulder lock combined with a wrist lock in order to disarm him.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 5, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> You need to break his posture so that he never gets proper balance or posture. While doing that, you need to attempt to control and isolate the arm he's using to stab you. Once you accomplish that, you need to perform an arm lock or shoulder lock combined with a wrist lock in order to disarm him.


So you need to do something in addition to the guard


----------



## Hanzou (Jul 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> So you need to do something in addition to the guard



The guard allows you to that in an efficient manner. The posture breaking comes from your closed guard, and allows you to set up a lock. Without that hip control, he has maximum range of motion, and the chances of you being able to stop the attack drops dramatically.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> It may be a given but the original topic was only about the guard not all the extra "givens"



Ok. When we discuss the guard. It generally includes something other than just lying there.

Sorry if there was some misconception.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 5, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> People who don't train in the guard, or know little about the position, believe that its a static position. They don't realize how active it is, and how a skilled guard player will utilize many different types of guards to get a desired outcome.
> 
> This is why you see so many laughable guard passes from other arts, or someone like Ballen saying you just sit there and take a nap until help arrives.



I think he might be trying to score points with silly semantics. Rather than be actually that literal about the topic. 

It took me a while to figure out that was the actual point he was trying to make.

I mean are we allowed to breath when in the guard? Because that is the guard plus something. And that could make the guard really dangerous in self defence.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 5, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> I've never said it was static(I may have over simplified it for typing purposes I'm on my phone so it's not as easy to get full on technical on every topic)  I said it's  not complete.  It needs you to so another technique to fully defend yourself.  Since fried rice was chicken and won't answer the question I'll ask you.  Your attacked guys trying to stab you.  You fall and end up in guard he's still stabbing at you what so you do to stop him



Wrist control


----------



## Drose427 (Jul 5, 2015)

Coming from more of a wrestler than a BJJ guy:

Is the guard (or the variations I do know) ever going to by a go to position for me? Never

In fact, ill probably only ever use it in SD if an assailant takes me down or we trip

That said, its a great recovery position. A great a way to take away his advantage and to let me get started on transitioning to a better position.

To me its like a stepping stone, 

To a BJJ guy, its probably more of a central thing


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I think he might be trying to score points with silly semantics. Rather than be actually that literal about the topic.
> 
> It took me a while to figure out that was the actual point he was trying to make.
> 
> I mean are we allowed to breath when in the guard? Because that is the guard plus something. And that could make the guard really dangerous in self defence.





drop bear said:


> Ok. When we discuss the guard. It generally includes something other than just lying there.
> 
> Sorry if there was some misconception.


So then the guard alone isn't good enough got it.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Wrist control


Then what


----------



## Danny T (Jul 6, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Then what


A well executed guard will tie up the top person's body as well as their upper limbs. A properly executed guard can prevent a knifer from stabbing you. 'IF' all goes properly. From the closed guard one can transition into other guard positions that can break the opponent's wrist, grip, and/or arm with little but the guard positions. Everything has to be perfect but it is all from a proper guard. There is nothing that is a specific arm control that is called 'guard'.


----------



## Hanzou (Jul 7, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Coming from more of a wrestler than a BJJ guy:
> 
> Is the guard (or the variations I do know) ever going to by a go to position for me? Never
> 
> ...



It's definitely a central thing in Bjj. Its one of the defining features of the style, and thanks to the competitive aspects of both sport Bjj and MMA, the guard is probably the most adapted position in MA. A well-executed guard set up is a thing of martial beauty, making a position of weakness and potential doom into a position of  strength and potential victory.

That's probably why, like Buka, I absolutely love the guard.

I find it interesting though that while many who actually practice Bjj say its not their go-to move, there's other arts that have adapted the guard and they use it as a go-to move.


----------



## Steve (Jul 7, 2015)

Snip


----------



## elder999 (Jul 9, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> I find it interesting though that while many who actually practice Bjj say its not their go-to move, there's other arts that have adapted the guard and they use it as a go-to move.



In judo, it's called _dō-osae., _or just "trunk hold."

In catch wrestling, it's a "front trunk scissors."

In fact, the only grappling styles I know of that have ground (or, more properly, _floor_) techniques but no guard are greco-roman wrestling, and collegiate wrestling-and I'm not so sure that it doesn't take place in collegiate or freestyle wrestling from time to time.


----------



## Hanzou (Jul 9, 2015)

elder999 said:


> In judo, it's called _dō-osae., _or just "trunk hold."
> 
> In catch wrestling, it's a "front trunk scissors."
> 
> In fact, the only grappling styles I know of that have ground (or, more properly, _floor_) techniques but no guard are greco-roman wrestling, and collegiate wrestling-and I'm not so sure that it doesn't take place in collegiate or freestyle wrestling from time to time.



Are there entire systems formed around those positions like there are in Bjj?

For example, the Williams guard has an entire series of sweeps, chokes, and locks based entirely around that starting point.


----------



## Buka (Jul 9, 2015)

Steve said:


> Snip


@Steve 

As in thread?


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 9, 2015)

Danny T said:


> A well executed guard will tie up the top person's body as well as their upper limbs. A properly executed guard can prevent a knifer from stabbing you. 'IF' all goes properly. From the closed guard one can transition into other guard positions that can break the opponent's wrist, grip, and/or arm with little but the guard positions. Everything has to be perfect but it is all from a proper guard. There is nothing that is a specific arm control that is called 'guard'.


Then what now you tied him up.  He's still pissed he's still trying to get you.  What else are you going to do?


----------



## Buka (Jul 9, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Then what now you tied him up.  He's still pissed he's still trying to get you.  What else are you going to do?



I'm not sure if the question is directed only at Danny T, if so apologies in advance, but I'm going to collar choke him. No matter what he's wearing. If he's bare chested, I'm more than likely screwed.


----------



## elder999 (Jul 9, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Are there entire systems formed around those positions like there are in Bjj?
> 
> For example, the Williams guard has an entire series of sweeps, chokes, and locks based entirely around that starting point.



I'd hardly call that "entire systems." Otherwise, though, the answer would be "yes."

I have to add, the objectives in freestyle and Greco-roman being what they are, the guard is an inferior position in those sport....which is a little odd, considering the prevalence of wrestling takedowns in MMA.....(don't see many people pulling guard from stand-up in MMA, like they do in sport-jiu-jitsu.)


----------



## Danny T (Jul 9, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Then what now you tied him up.  He's still pissed he's still trying to get you.  What else are you going to do?


In what manner do I have him tied up? Do I have an over or under hood on the weapon arm? Is it high on the arm or low? Is the arm across my body or not? Am I in a 'closed' guard, 'open' guard or another variant? Is it a high guard or a low guard?
Too many possibilities I need more information for your scenario.

As I have already posted there is no particular arm position or control that is specific to guard. But depending upon the particular arm positioning and control action an arm break is possible, a shoulder lock is possible, a arm triangle is possible and they are all guard.

These are but some examples; there are others.


----------



## Hanzou (Jul 10, 2015)

elder999 said:


> I'd hardly call that "entire systems.



Well to give you an example, here's a pretty exhaustive compendium of the Williams Guard from Sherdog, examining its entries, sweeps, locks, chokes, counters, and counter-counters;

The Williams Guard A Compendium GIF Image Heavy Long Post - Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums

And here's one for Leite's Half-guard;

Lucas Leite The Half Guard Gambledub s Breakdown Study Companion - Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums



> " Otherwise, though, the answer would be "yes."



Would you care to share some? Something along the lines of what I posted above would be great.



> I have to add, the objectives in freestyle and Greco-roman being what they are, the guard is an inferior position in those sport....which is a little odd, considering the prevalence of wrestling takedowns in MMA.....(don't see many people pulling guard from stand-up in MMA, like they do in sport-jiu-jitsu.)



The high level Bjj guys do. Guys like Shinya Aoki, Paul Sass, or Nate Diaz pull guard quite a bit. Kron Gracie pulled guard in his debut MMA match and won in the first round.Those guys are pretty elite level grapplers though.

There's a few reasons you don't see as much Guard Pulling in MMA as you do in sport Bjj. It mostly has to do with ground fighting being punished in MMA where its the main focus of sport Bjj.


----------



## elder999 (Jul 10, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> The high level Bjj guys do. Guys like Shinya Aoki, Paul Sass, or Nate Diaz pull guard quite a bit. Kron Gracie pulled guard in his debut MMA match and won in the first round.Those guys are pretty elite level grapplers though.
> 
> There's a few reasons you don't see as much Guard Pulling in MMA as you do in sport Bjj. It mostly has to do with ground fighting being punished in MMA where its the main focus of sport Bjj.



In sports where the objective is to pin the opponent's shoulders on the mat,  like freestyle and greco-roman wrestling,  the guard is an inferior position.

In MMA, you don't see as much guard pulling because the guard s not an superior position-it's transitional at best

I'd have to add, most MMA participants have a pretty weak guard....

Generally, though, BJJ is not always the best foundation for MMA, especially the sport version, where pulling guard is rewarded;; in MMA it's a liability, unless you have a really good guard game....sport BJJ is also weak on takedowns-wrestling takedowns tend to dominate in MMA, with a few exceptions-but most BJJ studios don't really train for many takedowns beyond "pulling guard," and inadequate versions of wrestling takedowns....by "inadequate," I mean not as well done as by wrestlers...


----------



## Hanzou (Jul 10, 2015)

elder999 said:


> In sports where the objective is to pin the opponent's shoulders on the mat,  like freestyle and greco-roman wrestling,  the guard is an inferior position.
> 
> In MMA, you don't see as much guard pulling because the guard s not an superior position-it's transitional at best
> 
> ...



Nothing for Judo trunk hold? That's unfortunate. Is that something else I can add as a difference between Judo and Bjj? 

Yes, I would imagine that in sports where you lose if you are pinned on your back, or like in MMA where the point system works against traditional guard play, the guard would be considered an inferior position.

But we're not talking about sports, we're talking about self defense. 

As for the state of Bjj takedowns, they're definitely improving. Especially as more Wrestlers, Judoka, and Samboists enter the style.


----------



## Buka (Jul 10, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Nothing for Judo trunk hold? That's unfortunate.
> 
> 
> Yes, I would imagine that in sports where you lose if you are pinned on your back, or like in MMA where the point system works against traditional guard play, the guard would be considered an inferior position.
> ...



Yes, we're talking about self defense. So - would I be right in thinking that the first purpose of the guard would be, - while on the ground, to prevent the opponent from mounting you or gaining any other superior position?


----------



## Hanzou (Jul 10, 2015)

Buka said:


> Yes, we're talking about self defense. So - would I be right in thinking that the first purpose of the guard would be, - while on the ground, to prevent the opponent from mounting you or gaining any other superior position?



Yes indeed.


----------



## elder999 (Jul 10, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Nothing for Judo trunk hold? That's unfortunate. Is that something else I can add as a difference between Judo and Bjj?



No-as I've said before, pretty much everything you've ever posted from BJJ can be found, in one form or another, in judo-especially when it comes to newaza.

Here, you like youtube-start at 2:00:






and this video isn't the best quality one, and it's of a class (and a rather undisciplined one!), rather than demonstration, but look what they're training on:






You can even find "rubber guard" in judo, if you look hard enough....



Hanzou said:


> Yes, I would imagine that in sports where you lose if you are pinned on your back, or like in MMA where the point system works against traditional guard play, the guard would be considered an inferior position.



It's inferior for self-defense as well. Knowing how to fight _from it? T_Hen stand up fight and/or run away? Essential for self-defense, _in case you *wind up* there.
_
Having it as a go-to technique for self defense?_ *Not so muc*h.





Hanzou said:



			But we're not talking about sports, we're talking about self defense. 

Click to expand...


"Self defense?"_ Not so sure from your posts that we're talking about the same thing...._..
_
If we're talking about BJJ, we're mostly talking about a sport-albeit one that favors the guard, to the extent that "pulling guard" is a valid tacti_c_


----------



## Hanzou (Jul 10, 2015)

elder999 said:


> No-as I've said before, pretty much everything you've ever posted from BJJ can be found, in one form or another, in judo-especially when it comes to newaza.
> 
> Here, you like youtube-start at 2:00:
> 
> ...



Vids not showing up for me. I'll check them out when I get home. Thanks for posting them. 




> It's inferior for self-defense as well. Knowing how to fight _from it? T_Hen stand up fight and/or run away? Essential for self-defense, _in case you *wind up* there._


_
_
Why stand up and fight when you can finish it right there and be done with it? In other words, if I have an opportunity to put someone in a choke from guard and end the confrontation, why wouldn't I go for that instead of risking to prolong the fight by standing back up again?



> Having it as a go-to technique for self defense?_ *Not so muc*h._


_

_
It's definitely a situational go-to technique. If a smaller person is tackled by someone who is bigger and stronger for example, or if a rapist has a girl in missionary position, the guard can save their butt.
_
As for guard pulling as a valid self defense tactic, I think the Akban guys showed plenty of SD applications using the guard pull. :shrug:_


----------



## elder999 (Jul 10, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Why stand up and fight when you can finish it right there and be done with it? In other words, if I have an opportunity to put someone in a choke from guard and end the confrontation, why wouldn't I go for that instead of risking to prolong the fight by standing back up again?



Well, choking an attacker out might be one way of escaping to stand up fight, and/or run away-

I mean, what is the person in that situation going to do, as reasonable and prudent self-defense, after choking someone out? *Get up off the ground.*




Hanzou said:


> It's definitely a situational go-to technique. If a smaller person is tackled by someone who is bigger and stronger for example, or if a rapist has a girl in missionary position, the guard can save their butt.



I'd call that a "situation," not a "situational go-to." Kinda like having a knife held to your throat with your back against the wall-"back against the wall" isn't a "go-to" (thhough it _can_ be) but there you are anyway,.
_


Hanzou said:



			As for guard pulling as a valid self defense tactic, I think the Akban guys showed plenty of SD applications using the guard pull. :shrug:
		
Click to expand...

_
That's a little different, but okay.....


----------



## Hanzou (Jul 10, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Well, choking an attacker out might be one way of escaping to stand up fight, and/or run away-
> 
> I mean, what is the person in that situation going to do, as reasonable and prudent self-defense, after choking someone out? *Get up off the ground.*


*

Well choking or breaking a limb from guard would be fighting from guard.*



> I'd call that a "situation," not a "situational go-to." Kinda like having a knife held to your throat with your back against the wall-"back against the wall" isn't a "go-to" (thhough it _can_ be) but there you are anyway,.


_[/quote]

Well what if you're exceptionally good in guard? For someone like that, I could imagine that the guard would be a go-to for fighting in general.
_
_


> That's a little different, but okay.....



How?


----------



## Buka (Jul 10, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> So my questions are as follows; What is the Guard's place in self defense? Is the Guard a dominant, inferior, or neutral position? Should people learn to fight from Guard, or better utilize their training time elsewhere?





Buka said:


> So - would I be right in thinking that the first purpose of the guard would be, - while on the ground, to prevent the opponent from mounting you or gaining any other superior position?





Hanzou said:


> Yes indeed.



My answer to the first question of the OP, "_the Guard's place in self defense_" would be a defensive haven to start. Then, if there's anything offensive in your guard game, be it submissions, escape or striking, one or all would follow. (hopefully)

As to the Guard as a "_dominant, inferior or neutral position_" I'd say neutral to start.

As to "_should people learn to fight from the guard or better utilize their training time elsewhere_", I dunno, that would be up to the person. I never would have if it hadn't been taught to me in the way it was. I loved it from the start because I was always ending up on the bottom. Utilizing training time depends on who's training you and in what. I think so, anyway.

And as to the guard keeping someone from mounting me in any way - I'm all for that. It's not easy being a lightweight. Especially an old lightweight. And the older I get it seems that people (general population) keep getting a little bit bigger.


----------



## elder999 (Jul 10, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> How?



I can't find any videos of Akban "pulling guard," but  I'm willing to bet it's not exactly what it appears to be- given their......eclecticism, I could be wrong, but post one, if you know one....


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jul 10, 2015)

elder999 said:


> I can't find any videos of Akban "pulling guard," but  I'm willing to bet it's not exactly what it appears to be- given their......eclecticism, I could be wrong, but post one, if you know one....


The video was posted back on page 1 of this thread. (I posted a couple of responses to the video as well.)


----------



## elder999 (Jul 10, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The video was posted back on page 1 of this thread. (I posted a couple of responses to the video as well.)


Sorry-you posted this just as I thought to search the thread!



Tony Dismukes said:


> It's well-documented that Hatsumi learned Togakure Ryu and the other arts which go into the Bujinkan from Toshitsugu Takamatsu, so if the scare quotes around "discovered" are meant to indicate that he actually secretly fabricated the art, then that accusation should be aimed at Takamatsu.
> 
> I considered that there might be some judo influence in the technique, but I've never seen that particular sequence (jump guard to double ankle grab sweep to kick) in any judo reference. Elder could probably tell us if there's some obscure judo source for the kata.



It's also well documented that when he first saw judo, Takamatsu was horrified that judoka bend their backs to execute throws......

"Jumping guard" *is* an effective defense against most throws in judo, which is probably why it's penalized in contests.....

As for the video, while it's less true for judo, it's still true-it's truer still for koryu, or arts closer to their koryu roots, like Bujinkan taijutsu-one has to consider the context for the technique: "jumping guard" is also an effective "last ditch" technique when unarmed and in armor, and fighting someone else (armed or unarmed) in armor...though, that particular sequence, not so much. It's what I was getting at without seeing the video: there are a couple of  koryu techniques that might appear to be "jumping guard," but getting in the guard position isn't the objective, any more than it is to choke the opponent or break their arm. 

The objective is to snap the neck, and/or smash the head.......just sayin'.....


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## Hanzou (Jul 10, 2015)

The reason I pointed out that video is to show a non-sport style utilizing the jump guard as a self defense tactic. If he bends forward, he's in your guard. If you miss, you can double ankle sweep. If you jump too high, you can roll to the top position, or do a sacrifice throw. 

Seems like a viable and strong takedown for self defense purposes.

I think that kicking while you're both on the ground is a bit silly though.


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## elder999 (Jul 10, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> T
> 
> I think that kicking while you're both on the ground is a bit silly though.



 Nah, those kicks can _hurt_......isn't that the point?


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## Sub Zero (Jul 11, 2015)

In SD I go by BJ Penn's MMA philosophy; use the guard to get back to your feet quickly or sweep/advance to a superiour position.  With strikes alone subs are more diffucult to pull off.  Not to mention the possibility of a knife being used on you.


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## Taekwondoguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Stay off the ground , if possible.  Knife can appear out of nowhere.  Learn ground to know it, but run to avoid conflict is smarter.


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## Hanzou (Aug 25, 2015)

Taekwondoguy said:


> Stay off the ground , if possible.  Knife can appear out of nowhere.  Learn ground to know it, but run to avoid conflict is smarter.



If possible is the key word here. If it's not possible, the guard can save your life.


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## Koshiki (Sep 9, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> If possible is the key word here. If it's not possible, the guard can save your life.



I know I'm late to the party, but I feel that this one line could have (perhaps _should_ have) been the entire discussion. No, I don't think anyone would advocate pulling guard and then "just lying there" (ahem) as a go to, complete self-defense system against all comers in all situations. 

But no one can honestly deny that fights do, with some regularity end up on the ground. No one can also deny that if it goes to the ground YOU might be the one on bottom. And I really, REALLY hope no one would rather be under mount than in guard.

I am about as far from a ground fighter as you can get. I'm a stand up guy, with zero-ground game, and my training is all as SD focused as I can make it. I have zero interest in sport competition.

But I've still poured quite a bit of time into comfort with guard position. Much as you may not want to end up on the ground, on the bottom, you simply cannot ignore the possibility and not train for it if you are in any way serious about comprehensive training.

But yeah, nuance and detail and interpretation aside, the OP was asking if guard has a place in SD.

The answer is yes.

It's not going to win a fight, and you might not WANT to end up there, but I'd sure as hell rather train for that eventuality now then try to wing it in the heat of the moment!

I mean, heck, I'm from a TKD school, and we've done simple guard training for longer than I've been alive. In a TKD school! (To be fair, we're a weird branch of TKD...) 

Guard is useful, and it _definitely_ has a place in self defense.

Saying Guard is not useful because you don't want to go to the ground on your back is like saying blocks/slipping/positioning are not useful because you don't want someone punching at your head and you can't win a fight by just not getting hit, or that learning to deal with/control an arm with a knife is not useful because you can't win a fight by just not getting stabbed, or that keeping your hands up and your spacing where you want it isn't useful because distancing and raised hands do not win a fight on their own, or...


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## Milo of Croton (Sep 9, 2015)

IMHO,

As much as possible, avoid going to the ground as much as possible. You'll never know if the scumbag has mates until it's too late and you've been reduced to a wet icky spot on the pavement. But in those worst-case scenarios when the fight _does _go to the ground, it's indispensable. Just don't make the mistake of sticking around in that position for too long; get back up on your feet as soon as you can.


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## Koshiki (Sep 9, 2015)

Milo of Croton said:


> Just don't make the mistake of sticking around in that position for too long; get back up on your feet as soon as you can.



Oh definitely, a thousand times yes. Especially if, like me, your ground game is terrible. Especially if, like me, you're a little guy who is easily picked up and slammed. I've felt that enough times on grass, sand, and mats to NOT want to find out what it feels like on the edge of a chair, or across a curb...


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## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2015)

Well to be fair, there are some guys who are wizards on the ground, who could hang out there all they and destroy people.

Just saying....


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## Milo of Croton (Sep 10, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Well to be fair, there are some guys who are wizards on the ground, who could hang out there all they and destroy people.
> 
> Just saying....


I wouldn't deny the probability of that, but not everyone's a ground-game wizard. It takes excellent coordination, mind-body awareness, knowledge of body mechanics and good technique to attain that quality of skill, and that can take years. I also acknowledge though that not everyone who takes up self-defense classes, or martial arts for self-defense is going to treat it as a serious hobby or even a lifestyle as a lot of us on this forum probably do. So for their benefit, I'd rather teach them something/technique that will have a better chance of working for the less experienced/uninitiated than something that may only work for professionals and full-time martial artists. The more intermediate/advanced techniques they can learn later on as they develop in their respective arts, but today then can learn the fundamentals and simpler foundational techniques on which they can build their armory of skills, but will also serve them practically with the right approach to training and conditioning.

This doesn't discount advanced technique though. Not by any means! I'm just saying that an excellent ground-game will only happen for a few who truly commit to the art or have a natural predisposition for mangling other people. And we'll never know when you'll need those crucial fundamentals in a self-defense situation. You could be mugged tomorrow next week or even tomorrow while coming home from work, and that's not enough time to teach you how to apply a lock or choke from the guard, or enough time for me to ease you into how to pin an assailant with a half or full nelson so you can make mush of his face. I can, but if you don't fully have it down yet, I would recommend that you recourse to something simpler. The guard is excellent for dominating another human being and serves as a gateway to doing all sorts of unpleasant things to them, but until you've mastered it, I would not recommend you try it - especially if there are other things you can do more effectively in the meantime.


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## Koshiki (Sep 19, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Well to be fair, there are some guys who are wizards on the ground, who could hang out there all they and destroy people.



Oh definitely. No argument there. But for those of us who are NOT ground wizards, guard is going to be a last ditch emergency contingency, with much of our strategy revolving around getting OUT of guard and back on our feet.

It's like I wouldn't recommend boxing as a good strategy for dealing with an armed attacker, but there are definitely boxers out there who could pull it off. If you're a boxing wizard, play to your strength.

I wouldn't reccomend either strategy as the best go-to, other options being available, to anyone trying to decide what to train, but if you've already trained it, might as well make use of it.


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## Buka (Sep 19, 2015)

As for knives - if you carry one you should train ground fighting with a knife. It's usually standard BJJ with the drawing/striking of your blade from typical BJJ positions, and the easiest targets from those positions.
Mark Human from South Africa teaches a great seminar on it. A lot of knife guys do. Armpit strike with knife is great from your guard. It seems the easiest target.

To what Hanzou said - 
"Well to be fair, there are some guys who are wizards on the ground, who could hang out there all they and destroy people.
Just saying...."

I whole heartedly agree. If Relson Gracie gets you in his guard and wants you to starve to death, you are starving to death. I don't give a damn about how well you think you pass guard or what rank you have in anything, including BJJ.
I know, it's Relson Gracie, but..
Just saying.


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## Koshiki (Sep 20, 2015)

Buka said:


> If Relson Gracie gets you in his guard and wants you to starve to death, you are starving to death.



The worst bit is watching him casually making himself a sandwich and eating while he's got you there immobilized....


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## drop bear (Sep 20, 2015)

Buka said:


> As for knives - if you carry one you should train ground fighting with a knife. It's usually standard BJJ with the drawing/striking of your blade from typical BJJ positions, and the easiest targets from those positions.
> Mark Human from South Africa teaches a great seminar on it. A lot of knife guys do. Armpit strike with knife is great from your guard. It seems the easiest target.



Ground fighting with strikes also puts an importance on isolating arms.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 20, 2015)

Hmm, missed all this the first time round… didn't expect to see anything of my systems there. That said, a few things to get straight.



Hanzou said:


> Who knew that jumping guard was part of Ninjutsu kata?



Despite what Yossi and the Akban boys have put as the title, that's not a "jumping guard". At all.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Believe it or not, I saw that sequence in a (Japanese language) book by Hatsumi decades ago, before there was any significant awareness of BJJ in the US or Japan. As in the video, there's no actual fighting from the guard - just an immediate sweep followed by kicks.
> 
> Edit - some googling reveals that the book in question was published in 1964.



Yep, the actual method shown in the video is (a slightly odd variation of) Hissaku from Koto Ryu Koppojutsu. For the record, there are also similar kata in both lines of Shinden Fudo Ryu, with Fubi in the Dakentaijutsu and Ryu Ko Ashi Gata (an Ura Gata of Ryu Ko) in the Jutaijutsu… and none of them are an application of the guard. In fact, they're quite the opposite.



Hanzou said:


> Considering Hatsumi's Judo background before he "discovered" Ninjutsu, that doesn't surprise me.



Except that this isn't from Judo… 



Tony Dismukes said:


> It's well-documented that Hatsumi learned Togakure Ryu and the other arts which go into the Bujinkan from Toshitsugu Takamatsu, so if the scare quotes around "discovered" are meant to indicate that he actually secretly fabricated the art, then that accusation should be aimed at Takamatsu.
> 
> I considered that there might be some judo influence in the technique, but I've never seen that particular sequence (jump guard to double ankle grab sweep to kick) in any judo reference. Elder could probably tell us if there's some obscure judo source for the kata.



As seen (and applied) in the Koto Ryu waza? Nope. Although that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist there… 



Hanzou said:


> Perhaps it emerged from Judo's sacrifice throws? In either case, I think it's interesting that the Akban view jump guard as a self defense method.



Nope. Stop looking at Judo for it… it ain't there. Again, it's not what you think it is.



Hanzou said:


> _As for guard pulling as a valid self defense tactic, I think the Akban guys showed plenty of SD applications using the guard pull. :shrug:_



What in the Akban video made you think it was being presented as self defence, let alone a "valid self defence tactic"? There's no mention there at all… and it's still not a guard… 



elder999 said:


> I can't find any videos of Akban "pulling guard," but  I'm willing to bet it's not exactly what it appears to be- given their......eclecticism, I could be wrong, but post one, if you know one....



It's not what it appears to be… but that has nothing to do with their eclecticism… if anything, I'd point to that to indicate that they seem to have missed the basic differences between Hissaku and "pulling guard"… 



elder999 said:


> As for the video, while it's less true for judo, it's still true-it's truer still for koryu, or arts closer to their koryu roots, like Bujinkan taijutsu-one has to consider the context for the technique:



Yep. Of course… that can mean a number of things… 



elder999 said:


> "jumping guard" is also an effective "last ditch" technique when unarmed and in armor, and fighting someone else (armed or unarmed) in armour…



Not just in armour, but again, context is the key here… 



elder999 said:


> though, that particular sequence, not so much.



Ha, yeah… I'm not overly fond of how they're interpreting that one… 



elder999 said:


> It's what I was getting at without seeing the video: there are a couple of  koryu techniques that might appear to be "jumping guard," but getting in the guard position isn't the objective, any more than it is to choke the opponent or break their arm.



There we go! Our name for it is do shime… "body choke". It's applied by leaping up from the front… or the side… or behind… or on the ground… from the front… or the side… or behind… but the important thing is that it's almost exactly opposite to the guard itself. The guard is a position used to limit (and control) the opponent's ability to continue to attack. It's defensive in nature, kinda by definition (that's why it has such a defensive name… the guard…). What's seen in the Koto Ryu method, though, is pretty much purely offensive… it's an attack to the ribs and body, seeking to choke and affect the breathing by compressing the lungs. The target is the lower ribs, rather than controlling the hips… so, although it looks very similar, it's really nothing like it.



elder999 said:


> The objective is to snap the neck, and/or smash the head.......just sayin'.....



Eh, not so much… the aim of the do shime itself is compression of the lungs and ribs/diaphragm… that can lead to secondary actions that aim at injuring the back, or impacting the head onto the ground (resulting in a concussion or worse), but the action itself is a choke. Pure and simple, really.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 20, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> The guard is a position used to limit (and control) the opponent's ability to continue to attack. It's defensive in nature, kinda by definition (that's why it has such a defensive name… the guard…).


That would be an accurate description of the origin of the guard, but there are a number of more offensive guards and approaches to using the guard that have been developed. See the video clip in the Ryan Hall MMA debut thread for an example.

A more precise distinction would probably be to say that the guard (of whatever variety) is designed to _control_ the opponent's body for defensive and/or offensive purposes.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 20, 2015)

Hmm… I'd say that the guard (standard, as that's really all I was addressing) is a position designed to control an opponent, prevent or limit further attacks, and allow you to respond with defensive or offensive techniques. Which is still completely different to the Koto Ryu method shown, as that's not a position, nor does it have a defensive aspect, and is not about control at all.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 20, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm… I'd say that the guard (standard, as that's really all I was addressing) is a position designed to control an opponent, prevent or limit further attacks, and allow you to respond with defensive or offensive techniques.



That's not a bad description of the basic closed guard, which is what I assume you mean by "standard" guard. In BJJ, the term has broadened out considerably.



Chris Parker said:


> Which is still completely different to the Koto Ryu method shown, as that's *not a position*, nor does it have a defensive aspect, and is *not about control* at all.


The bits I've bolded are, I think, the key distinctions. The guard (which really should be pluralized - guard*s* - since there are so many of them) is a* systemized position of control* for offensive and/or defensive purposes. the Koto Ryu method seems more like a stand-alone technique, not as any kind of systematic position for controlling an opponent.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 20, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That's not a bad description of the basic closed guard, which is what I assume you mean by "standard" guard. In BJJ, the term has broadened out considerably.



Yep, and agreed. I would still say that the biggest factor is that the guard (whichever form) is a position, which is focused around preventing attacks (defensive)… which could obviously be done in a more or less offensive fashion, depending on the guard itself (and the practitioner).



Tony Dismukes said:


> The bits I've bolded are, I think, the key distinctions. The guard (which really should be pluralized - guard*s* - since there are so many of them) is a* systemized position of control* for offensive and/or defensive purposes. the Koto Ryu method seems more like a stand-alone technique, not as any kind of systematic position for controlling an opponent.



Yeah, that's it. It's a technique the same way a RNC is a technique.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 20, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> I would still say that the biggest factor is that the guard (whichever form) is a position, which is focused around preventing attacks (defensive)… which could obviously be done in a more or less offensive fashion, depending on the guard itself (and the practitioner).


Mostly correct, but I would say that there are some guards (x-guard, for example) which are inherently more focused on attacking than on preventing attacks. Of course that gets somewhat subjective, since controlling your opponents body means that you can (and should) be both attacking and defending simultaneously.

To use the Ryan Hall example again, in his first and second TUF fights he pulled single-leg x-guard as an offensive maneuver and attacked continually until transitioning to 50/50 guard for the finish. Any defensive focus was totally secondary to the focus on attacking.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 20, 2015)

I'm not up on all the different guards that you guys like to make flavour of the month it seems, so I just had a quick look around at this single leg x-guard… and, to me, it still looks primarily defensive in that it's designed around controlling the opponent's mobility by entangling one of their legs, preventing them from moving around, passing, and continuing an offence. It's designed to put the aggressor (top person) on the defensive by forcing them to stop their forward momentum and seek an escape… so I'm not surprised it's used in conjunction with a more aggressive approach… but the idea of it being a guard, focused on controlling the opponent to prevent further attack (making it defensive in nature) seems to bear out.

I will say emphatically that defensive doesn't mean passive, nor does it mean that there is no attack present simultaneously.


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## Steve (Sep 20, 2015)

Chris, how long have you been training bjj?  What a cool surprise.


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## Steve (Sep 20, 2015)

I think of guard as more neutral than defensive,   Maybe a fine distinction, but important, I think.  Could be defensive or offensive, but not necessarily one or the other.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 20, 2015)

Steve said:


> Chris, how long have you been training bjj?  What a cool surprise.



I used to train with the Ground Zero guys (Gracie) here for a while… did a seminar with Royce during the time. Thought that'd been mentioned a few times… honestly, though, it's been something I've more dabbled in… my only serious time was for about a year or so. I think BJJ's a fantastic art, within it's context… it just ain't for me.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 20, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> I'm not up on all the different guards that you guys like to make flavour of the month it seems, so I just had a quick look around at this single leg x-guard… and, to me, it still looks primarily defensive in that it's designed around controlling the opponent's mobility by entangling one of their legs, preventing them from moving around, passing, and continuing an offence. It's designed to put the aggressor (top person) on the defensive by forcing them to stop their forward momentum and seek an escape… so I'm not surprised it's used in conjunction with a more aggressive approach… but the idea of it being a guard, focused on controlling the opponent to prevent further attack (making it defensive in nature) seems to bear out.
> 
> I will say emphatically that defensive doesn't mean passive, nor does it mean that there is no attack present simultaneously.


Look at it this way. Consider the full mount. You could argue that it's "defensive" because it is designed to control an opponent's mobility so that he can't move around and launch an effective offense. Realistically, though, anyone who uses it considers it to be an offensive position. When you are in full mount, you are devoting most of your time and mental focus to attacking. Perhaps you could say that because the position automatically takes care for the defense for you, almost all of your active work goes into attacking.

Single-leg x-guard is much the same, although not as extreme. When I am in full mount on an opponent, 95% of my attention goes into attacking. When I have an opponent in single-leg x-guard, it might be more like 70% of my attention goes into attacking.

When I have my opponent in full-guard, for comparison, it's more like 50/50 defense/offense and the offense only kicks into gear once I have solidified my defense.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 20, 2015)

Hmm… this gets rather difficult to describe in words, as much of it is contextually defined, as well as to do with the "feeling" (ooh, such a Bujinkan word!) of the positions… but no, I'd say rather clearly that the mount is absolutely offensive. And much of it is in the reasons you've listed (where much of the energy and focus goes)… as well as the relative position of the opponent, and the tactical options given to and restricted from each person.

Your last line there, honestly, is basically saying exactly what I've been saying… that it's a position based around a solid defensive capability which also allows for offensive actions (you can defend from mount as well, of course… neither position is locked into only one application). I'm finding it hard to follow where the argument comes from when you're saying the same thing…


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 20, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm… this gets rather difficult to describe in words, as much of it is contextually defined, as well as to do with the "feeling" (ooh, such a Bujinkan word!) of the positions… but no, I'd say rather clearly that the mount is absolutely offensive. And much of it is in the reasons you've listed (where much of the energy and focus goes)… as well as the relative position of the opponent, and the tactical options given to and restricted from each person.



I think we are in agreement here. I was trying to steer clear of mentioning the "feeling" of the position, because that's hard to communicate in text, but that's pretty much what it comes down to.



Chris Parker said:


> Your last line there, honestly, is basically saying exactly what I've been saying… that it's a position based around a solid defensive capability which also allows for offensive actions (you can defend from mount as well, of course… neither position is locked into only one application). I'm finding it hard to follow where the argument comes from when you're saying the same thing…



That last line was only concerning the basic full guard. I think we already established that we agree on that.

The correction was regarding some of the other guards in general and single-leg x in particular, since you mentioned that based on what you just looked up that it looks "primarily defensive" to you. I hate to pull the "speaking from authority" card, but you're going to have to take my word that the "feel" of single-leg x-guard is primarily offensive. Not so much so as full mount, but definitely more offensive than defensive.

It might seem like a niggling nitpick, but I would think that you would be the last person on this forum to object to corrections on the fine distinctions and esoteric details of an art.


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## Hanzou (Sep 21, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Despite what Yossi and the Akban boys have put as the title, that's not a "jumping guard". At all.



Then why do they call it the guard?

As for self defense, they were talking about breaking noses and such. Additionally, (as far as I know) they're not sport guys.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 23, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think we are in agreement here. I was trying to steer clear of mentioning the "feeling" of the position, because that's hard to communicate in text, but that's pretty much what it comes down to.



Cool. Yep, definitely in agreement there.



Tony Dismukes said:


> That last line was only concerning the basic full guard. I think we already established that we agree on that.



Again, cool.



Tony Dismukes said:


> The correction was regarding some of the other guards in general and single-leg x in particular, since you mentioned that based on what you just looked up that it looks "primarily defensive" to you. I hate to pull the "speaking from authority" card, but you're going to have to take my word that the "feel" of single-leg x-guard is primarily offensive. Not so much so as full mount, but definitely more offensive than defensive.



Fair enough. As I said, that's what it looks like to me… of course, you're well within your rights to pull the "speaking from authority" card (ha!), as, well, that's exactly what you're in a position to do!



Tony Dismukes said:


> It might seem like a niggling nitpick, but I would think that you would be the last person on this forum to object to corrections on the fine distinctions and esoteric details of an art.



Ha, yep, agreed.



Hanzou said:


> Then why do they call it the guard?



You'd need to ask Yossi… but my feeling is that it looks superficially enough like a guard (position) that Yossi felt it would appeal to more viewers for the video if he titled it that way.



Hanzou said:


> As for self defense, they were talking about breaking noses and such. Additionally, (as far as I know) they're not sport guys.



And what makes that self defence? I mean… you do know that noses get broken in sports as well, yeah? And that "sport" and "self defence" are but two possible focuses for a martial study… neither of which are exhaustive in their comprehension.


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## Hanzou (Sep 23, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> You'd need to ask Yossi… but my feeling is that it looks superficially enough like a guard (position) that Yossi felt it would appeal to more viewers for the video if he titled it that way.



Well the Akban has made it no secret that they have trained in Bjj, and utilize Bjj as part of their curriculum;

Portal: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, BJJ

So that explains that. 



> And what makes that self defence? I mean… you do know that noses get broken in sports as well, yeah? And that "sport" and "self defence" are but two possible focuses for a martial study… neither of which are exhaustive in their comprehension.



Well what other purpose would it serve if they're not learning those techniques for sport? Just for the hell of it? It's pretty clear that the intention of those techniques is for self defense.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 23, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Well the Akban has made it no secret that they have trained in Bjj, and utilize Bjj as part of their curriculum;
> 
> Portal: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, BJJ
> 
> So that explains that.



Except what is shown (Hissaku) is not BJJ… it is not related to BJJ, it is not part of BJJ, it is nothing to do with any BJJ that Yossi and his boys might do. I'd also say that the description given on his page doesn't show much in depth about BJJ training… instead, it implies bringing in teachers every now and then to get what they can out of it (not a bad idea in the slightest)… I'd also point out that they've previously claimed training in Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu as well, to the point of putting up a video of them performing the first kata in the Tachijutsu, Itsutsu no Tachi. Thing is, what they showed made it patently obvious that they've never had a teacher in the art, they were missing many, many aspects (both physical actions, and in understanding) of the kata itself… when I called them on it, Yossi threw a fit, gave excuses, removed the video from the net, and has since banned me from commenting on their videos on you-tube… so much for "Any criticism is welcomed" on that page, ha!



Hanzou said:


> Well what other purpose would it serve if they're not learning those techniques for sport? Just for the hell of it? It's pretty clear that the intention of those techniques is for self defense.



You've never studied classical systems, have you?

There are many reasons for studying such. It can range from gaining a tactical understanding, to a cultural insight, through to grasping historical combat, to, well, many other aspects. Here's something for you to ponder, though… these arts were never designed for, intended for, or based around the idea of "self defence"… in some ways, they weren't even designed (as written) for strict combative usage at all… but please, don't try to tell me what my own techniques are for again. Especially when I'm trying to help you improve your understanding of something you've seen, but not had the first clue about.


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## Hanzou (Sep 23, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Except what is shown (Hissaku) is not BJJ… it is not related to BJJ, it is not part of BJJ, it is nothing to do with any BJJ that Yossi and his boys might do.




Except in that video I posted, it's titled "Jump Guard tutorial" and he pulls his opponent into guard. Additionally he proceeds to perform a double ankle sweep. All of which is found in Bjj.



> I'd also say that the description given on his page doesn't show much in depth about BJJ training… instead, it implies bringing in teachers every now and then to get what they can out of it (not a bad idea in the slightest)… I'd also point out that they've previously claimed training in Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu as well, to the point of putting up a video of them performing the first kata in the Tachijutsu, Itsutsu no Tachi. Thing is, what they showed made it patently obvious that they've never had a teacher in the art, they were missing many, many aspects (both physical actions, and in understanding) of the kata itself… when I called them on it, Yossi threw a fit, gave excuses, removed the video from the net, and has since banned me from commenting on their videos on you-tube… so much for "Any criticism is welcomed" on that page, ha!



That judgement seems to run counter to what the Akban has stated themselves;



> *Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a mainstay in the syllabus of AKBAN *with an ongoing process of learning that we do with the help of BJJ teachers.



Now if you have issue with their katas, techniques, or whatever, that's a personal axe that you're welcomed to grind elsewhere. However in this case, it's pretty clear that the Akban are trained in Bjj.



> You've never studied classical systems, have you?
> 
> There are many reasons for studying such. It can range from gaining a tactical understanding, to a cultural insight, through to grasping historical combat, to, well, many other aspects. Here's something for you to ponder, though… these arts were never designed for, intended for, or based around the idea of "self defence"… in some ways, they weren't even designed (as written) for strict combative usage at all… but please, don't try to tell me what my own techniques are for again. Especially when I'm trying to help you improve your understanding of something you've seen, but not had the first clue about.



Well we're not talking about YOUR techniques. We're talking about the Akban's techniques. If the Akban is misrepresenting Ninjutsu in some form, that's something that Ninjutsu practitioners need to settle. However, if a Ninjutsu organization is very clearly utilizing Bjj techniques, and even states that they are using Bjj techniques, I'm not wrong in pointing that out.


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## Steve (Sep 23, 2015)

If it's grappling and it works, it's all bjj.  If it's grappling and it doesn't work, it's not bjj.


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## elder999 (Sep 23, 2015)

Steve said:


> If it's grappling and it works, it's all bjj.  If it's grappling and it doesn't work, it's not bjj.


Of course, keep in mind that "BJJ" means "_*B*asically *J*ust *J*udo_"


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## Steve (Sep 23, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Of course, keep in mind that "BJJ" means "_*B*asically *J*ust *J*udo_"


That's fine, because Judo works, and therefore is BJJ.


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## elder999 (Sep 23, 2015)

Steve said:


> That's fine, because BJJ works, and therefore is *Judo*.



Fixed that for ya.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 24, 2015)

Hanzou, please listen very, very closely. You have no idea what the hell you're talking about.



Hanzou said:


> Except in that video I posted, it's titled "Jump Guard tutorial"


 
That has been covered and explained. It's not a guard, and the term was most likely used to get views.



Hanzou said:


> and he pulls his opponent into guard.



No, he doesn't. This has also been explained. It's not guard, it's a body choke.



Hanzou said:


> Additionally he proceeds to perform a double ankle sweep. All of which is found in Bjj.



Completely besides the point. He's not showing BJJ, he's not showing anything taken from BJJ, this ain't BJJ, and you have no idea what you're looking at.



Hanzou said:


> That judgement seems to run counter to what the Akban has stated themselves;



No, it doesn't. I stated that they seem to be adding bits and pieces of BJJ by occasionally bringing in teachers… which is basically what the quote you gave says. They don't have any BJJ teachers in their ranks, and they aren't ranked in BJJ themselves… what they do is bring in BJJ coaches every now and then to work on ground work. Hell, if they're following anything close to the way they "trained" Katori Shinto Ryu, they're watching videos and trying to teach themselves as a primary method (which is in line with their MO)… and the teachers are brought in to refine what they come up with themselves.



Hanzou said:


> Now if you have issue with their katas, techniques, or whatever, that's a personal axe that you're welcomed to grind elsewhere. However in this case, it's pretty clear that the Akban are trained in Bjj.



Which has nothing to do with the kata/video posted. Again.



Hanzou said:


> Well we're not talking about YOUR techniques. We're talking about the Akban's techniques. If the Akban is misrepresenting Ninjutsu in some form, that's something that Ninjutsu practitioners need to settle. However, if a Ninjutsu organization is very clearly utilizing Bjj techniques, and even states that they are using Bjj techniques, I'm not wrong in pointing that out.



Yes, Hanzou, we ARE talking about my techniques. We don't make up what we feel like… the kata shown is Hissaku, from the Chuden no Gata of Koto Ryu. It's not an "Akban" technique, it's a Koto Ryu technique… which makes it one of my techniques. There is precisely 0 BJJ in the clip, as there is precisely 0 BJJ in Koto Ryu, and precisely 0 BJJ in Hissaku.

The full kata involves a bit more than is shown in the clip, but the elements of the leaping do shime (body choke), and the "double ankle sweep" are part of the kata, and are completely independent of any BJJ that the Akban boys deal in. Completely, 100% independent. No connection at all. So yes, you are wrong to point out that they're using BJJ techniques… they're not.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 25, 2015)

Hmm… Hanzou, I'm really not sure what you could have disagreed with there… I mean, it's me telling you what my techniques are… whether you want to accept it or not, that's the reality. If you have something specific you want to argue, bring it up… otherwise, I see no point in giving you any information on any subject at all in the future.


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