# The "Sir" Aspect of TaeKwonDO



## Elocin (Aug 18, 2017)

So, I am new to TaeKwonDo.
I am looking to have a mature and NON heated discussion on the aspect of saying "Sir" to everything and the tenets of respect for elders and parents....
I joined to build a confidence in my self defense abilities as a woman and citizen. I like the tenets about compassion, leadership, and indomitable spirit....I guess you could say I am hung up on my teacher talking about respecting your parents, elders, and teachers. My take on it seems like the class is asking for a blind respect..I say "sir" out of respect for my teacher as I am a student and I think all humans deserve a basic respect; but in my life there have been MANY teachers, and elders (and parent's of others) who I know that do NOT deserve reverence just because they are old, as they abuse the respect of children and have done awful things. I don't think it's a reason to quit TaeKwonDo obviously, but what do you all think about it?
I can't get behind the idea that all elders deserve a deep respect.. and my teacher talks about it a lot.


----------



## jobo (Aug 18, 2017)

Elocin said:


> So, I am new to TaeKwonDo.
> I am looking to have a mature and NON heated discussion on the aspect of saying "Sir" to everything and the tenets of respect for elders and parents....
> I joined to build a confidence in my self defense abilities as a woman and citizen. I like the tenets about compassion, leadership, and indomitable spirit....I guess you could say I am hung up on my teacher talking about respecting your parents, elders, and teachers. My take on it seems like the class is asking for a blind respect..I say "sir" out of respect for my teacher as I am a student and I think all humans deserve a basic respect; but in my life there have been MANY teachers, and elders (and parent's of others) who I know that do NOT deserve reverence just because they are old, as they abuse the respect of children and have done awful things. I don't think it's a reason to quit TaeKwonDo obviously, but what do you all think about it?
> I can't get behind the idea that all elders deserve a deep respect.. and my teacher talks about it a lot.


whilst there is nothing wrong with respect in general or elders in particular, I'm not sure that spending the time you have paid for being lectured on it is a good way to spend money or time

it sounds like one of them cult clubs that look to brainwash you, i wouldn't be calling any one,sir if I'm the customer they should be calling me sir. Leave and find a better,club, before they have you shave your head


----------



## CB Jones (Aug 18, 2017)

I always give respect until you give me reason not to.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 18, 2017)

We tend not to call people sir in the same way as they do in the US, with us it tends to be 'don't call me sir I work for a living'.

When people go on about how much they should be respected it's a general sign they shouldn't be.


----------



## Buka (Aug 18, 2017)

Other than friends, I call everyone Sir or Ma'am. I have taught my students to do the same when addressing people outside the dojo. And they, in turn, have taught their children the same.

Seems to have worked well so far. As to addressing me, it's "Coach" back east, and by my first name here. 

Outside the dojo I've always told them they can call me anything they think they can get away with.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 18, 2017)

Either do what the schools rules are or leave it's as simple as that really it's like someone at school calling there teacher sir or ma'm you're in a school so if you want to be there follow the rules. If you don't like it then no ones forcing you to stay


----------



## jobo (Aug 18, 2017)

[QUOTE="Buka, post: 1857000, member: . I have taught my students to do the same when addressing people outside the dojo. .[/QUOTE]
why


----------



## jobo (Aug 18, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Either do what the schools rules are or leave it's as simple as that really it's like someone at school calling there teacher sir or ma'm you're in a school so if you want to be there follow the rules. If you don't like it then no ones forcing you to stay


i agree, they sound like a lot of crack pots, she should indeed leave


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 18, 2017)

Buka said:


> Other than friends, I call everyone Sir or Ma'am. I have taught my students to do the same when addressing people outside the dojo. And they, in turn, have taught their children the same.
> 
> Seems to have worked well so far. As to addressing me, it's "Coach" back east, and by my first name here.
> 
> Outside the dojo I've always told them they can call me anything they think they can get away with.


Agreed outside a school I'll use their name but inside I'll call them whatever the rules are. I call a guy sir in class it's hardly a big deal


----------



## CB Jones (Aug 18, 2017)

Buka said:


> Other than friends, I call everyone Sir or Ma'am. I have taught my students to do the same when addressing people outside the dojo. And they, in turn, have taught their children the same.



Exactly.  I'm from the south Sir and Ma'am is just how we address people.


----------



## Elocin (Aug 18, 2017)

jobo said:


> whilst there is nothing wrong with respect in general or elders in particular, I'm not sure that spending the time you have paid for being lectured on it is a good way to spend money or time
> 
> it sounds like one of them cult clubs that look to brainwash you, i wouldn't be calling any one,sir if I'm the customer they should be calling me sir. Leave and find a better,club, before they have you shave your head


Right! And everyone says "sir" after every syllable uttered from the teacher. I can not force myself to say it (every single sentence), thought I DO respect him as a person


----------



## Elocin (Aug 18, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> We tend not to call people sir in the same way as they do in the US, with us it tends to be 'don't call me sir I work for a living'.
> 
> When people go on about how much they should be respected it's a general sign they shouldn't be.


That's exactly right...It reminds me of when someone says "you know I never think of myself".. and they always do.. or "i'm a nice guy" which usually is the precursor to some sleazy action.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 18, 2017)

Elocin said:


> Right! And everyone says "sir" after every syllable uttered from the teacher. I can not force myself to say it, thought I DO respect him as a person


Then leave


----------



## CB Jones (Aug 18, 2017)

Elocin said:


> Right! And everyone says "sir" after every syllable uttered from the teacher.



Seems like saying Sir after every syllable would make it hard to hear what he was actually saying.


----------



## Elocin (Aug 18, 2017)

Buka said:


> Other than friends, I call everyone Sir or Ma'am. I have taught my students to do the same when addressing people outside the dojo. And they, in turn, have taught their children the same.
> 
> Seems to have worked well so far. As to addressing me, it's "Coach" back east, and by my first name here.
> 
> Outside the dojo I've always told them they can call me anything they think they can get away with.


It's not the words I am concerned with. Teaching children to blindly respect authority just because they are older is kind of turning me off. Though I DO appreciate the tenet of "treating" everyone with respect, and most of all compassion.


----------



## Elocin (Aug 18, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Seems like saying Sir after every syllable would make it hard to hear what he was actually saying.


It is. He says it's supposed to keep us on our toes, but I can't focus while I'm hitting and drilling and listening to him talk and "sir"ing.


----------



## Elocin (Aug 18, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Either do what the schools rules are or leave it's as simple as that really it's like someone at school calling there teacher sir or ma'm you're in a school so if you want to be there follow the rules. If you don't like it then no ones forcing you to stay



I don't know if your comment was meant to shutdown, but I was posting to encourage discussion on the tenet. Doing things without questioning is not a way to learn. I am not leaving the school..he does not mind that I don't say "sir" yet, as it was my first class..I was mostly trying not to pass out.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 18, 2017)

Elocin said:


> I don't know if your comment was meant to shutdown, but I was posting to encourage discussion on the tenet. Doing things without questioning is not a way to learn. I am not leaving the school..he does not mind that I don't say "sir" yet, as it was my first class..I was mostly trying not to pass out.


And this is my discussion you do what you're asked to do in class or you leave it's there club it's there rules. If you want to train you listen to the instructor that's the way it goes


----------



## oftheherd1 (Aug 18, 2017)

I think one may find in the far east, there is more emphasis on respect for elders; parents, government officials, and just elders in general.  Confucius certainly taught that, but he didn't invent the idea.  Most MA schools will teach respect to the owner/teacher, especially in the dojang.  Nothing wrong with respect.

Unless it gets to be an overly continuous part of training.  I don't know your school or teacher so I can't really comment on whether or not your teacher is going beyond what I would consider the bounds or not.  But if you are uncomfortable you might indeed want to try another school.

As to "I am looking to have a mature and NON heated discussion... "  This is a public forum.  We are reasonably well regulated, but it can get heated from time to time.  Ignore that type of person or quit posting on the thread,  or try to develop a thicker skin.

Lastly, welcome to MT.  You might like to go to Meet and Greet and tell us a little about yourself.


----------



## Elocin (Aug 18, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Agreed outside a school I'll use their name but inside I'll call them whatever the rules are. I call a guy sir in class it's hardly a big deal


I see what you're saying here. I have no problem using what he asks me to use. I am simply wondering if that is common in Tae


Headhunter said:


> And this is my discussion you do what you're asked to do in class or you leave it's there club it's there rules. If you want to train you listen to the instructor that's the way it goes


I agree with you. I have no problem calling him sir if he asks that of the class....I am wondering if it's normal in TaeKwonDo for teachers to be so fixated on it, and WHY it's so important. That's what I wanted to discuss. Obviously if I am asked to do something in class, I am going to comply because it's my free time and I chose to go there.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 18, 2017)

Elocin said:


> I see what you're saying here. I have no problem using what he asks me to use. I am simply wondering if that is common in Tae
> 
> I agree with you. I have no problem calling him sir if he asks that of the class....I am wondering if it's normal in TaeKwonDo for teachers to be so fixated on it, and WHY it's so important. That's what I wanted to discuss. Obviously if I am asked to do something in class, I am going to comply because it's my free time and I chose to go there.


It's common in pretty much every traditional martial art. Sensai, sifu, sir, ma'm, professor. That's just it is from the traditional culture. As I've said before it's no different to any school setting. Some less traditional places like boxing gyms dont bother with it but even then they sometimes call them coach.

Well the way you've worded it makes it sound like you have a huge problem with it.


----------



## Elocin (Aug 18, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> I think one may find in the far east, there is more emphasis on respect for elders; parents, government officials, and just elders in general.  Confucius certainly taught that, but he didn't invent the idea.  Most MA schools will teach respect to the owner/teacher, especially in the dojang.  Nothing wrong with respect.
> 
> Unless it gets to be an overly continuous part of training.  I don't know your school or teacher so I can't really comment on whether or not your teacher is going beyond what I would consider the bounds or not.  But if you are uncomfortable you might indeed want to try another school.
> 
> ...


Thanks this was the kind of answer I am looking for. I see that it is public, my skin is plenty thick. I just posted what I felt like saying.. which is fine too.
Thanks for the welcome


----------



## Elocin (Aug 18, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> It's common in pretty much every traditional martial art. Sensai, sifu, sir, ma'm, professor. That's just it is from the traditional culture. As I've said before it's no different to any school setting. Some less traditional places like boxing gyms dont bother with it but even then they sometimes call them coach.
> 
> Well the way you've worded it makes it sound like you have a huge problem with it.


Ah I see. OK, it's not that I hate it, I just found it odd and wondered about it. "Sir" every syllable is a little off  putting but that is the choice of the higher belts and it seems a little suck uppy, but maybe not! The lower belts simply say sir if he makes a request, which is where I would like to stay at.


----------



## jobo (Aug 18, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Agreed outside a school I'll use their name but inside I'll call them whatever the rules are. I call a guy sir in class it's hardly a big deal





Elocin said:


> Right! And everyone says "sir" after every syllable uttered from the teacher. I can not force myself to say it (every single sentence), thought I DO respect him as a person


why do you respect him, you've only just met him?

seriously , there is something very wrong with him, that's not at all common, certainly not in the uk


----------



## paitingman (Aug 18, 2017)

It is a bit of an eastern tradition.
And most people are respectfully called by their titles (Dr., teacher, master, coach) always in the east.
In the US it would probably be odd to say "yes, teacher" "no, policeman" but sir is a good substitute.

In our TKD school we do say sir and ma'am, but it is known that the words themselves are not important at all. We use it as a way to cultivate what I would call a "great starting attitude."
When I would continually and habitually use those titles when speaking to people, eventually I just started to code switch and speak more respectfully and approached people with more respect in general.
I made it a habit to approach people with respect.

Obviously that respect should not necessarily last beyond a first encounter with someone haha which is why I call it a great STARTING attitude lol


----------



## drop bear (Aug 18, 2017)

jobo said:


> why do you respect him, you've only just met him?
> 
> seriously , there is something very wrong with him, that's not at all common, certainly not in the uk



There is a cultural difference. Americans love a sir or mam. Australians kind of hate it.  I use it a lot from bouncing where I wanted my dialogue to be less personal. And now it is just a habit.

I use it in the gym so the coach knows I have understood him. Which can be important when you are getting flogged and he is giving tips to prevent it. Which can sometimes be hard to process as being flogged can be terribly distracting.

Otherwise what I find helps from simply a better training standpoint is to repeat the instruction back.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Aug 18, 2017)

I use sir to my sensei. He doesn't require it. I prefer to use it.


----------



## MI_martialist (Aug 19, 2017)

If there is a "sir" after every time the instructor speaks, that is a bit much...reminds me of the Japanese schools going around saying "oss" or "osu" every time they think of something...it is irritating and frustrating!

I can think of a  good reason to force students to speak during a training session...it is to keep them from holding their breath...it forces breathing, but there are better ways than to say "Sir" every few seconds!

Most TKD schools that I know of have a very high percentage of children "training" so most of their instruction, including for adults, is geared towards children, and building their character, and they infantilize adults because they do not know how to instruct adults.


----------



## MI_martialist (Aug 19, 2017)

Our Sensei will go mad if we say "Sir" to him...during class, when he needs a response from us, it is "Hai!"...if we need too all him..."Sensei!"...  "Sir" is not a Japanese term...



Bill Mattocks said:


> I use sir to my sensei. He doesn't require it. I prefer to use it.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Aug 19, 2017)

Can you not still give people respect without calling them sir/sensei/sifu? I believe you can. When I'm teaching I hate being called "sir" but I still demand respect from my students. This comes in the form of listening carefully when I'm explaining the exercises and doing those exercises to the best of their ability. Consider this. Is it more disrespectful to call a person "sir" and not listen to them, than to say nothing and listen carefully to them?

I'm glad that my instructor holds a similar opinion. Hell, he doesn't even call himself "sifu" or "Master" like so many others do, because he doesn't think the title is deserved nor appropriate. I personally respect him more for that than if he insisted on using some honorific.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Aug 19, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> Our Sensei will go mad if we say "Sir" to him...during class, when he needs a response from us, it is "Hai!"...if we need too all him..."Sensei!"...  "Sir" is not a Japanese term...



Isshinryu came to the US with returning US Marines. My sensei's sensei were Marines. I'm a Marine. I say "sir."

We do use Japanese terms in our dojo, and our sensei was born in Japan to an Air Force father and a Japanese mother, but we've had Japanese visitors tell us our pronunciation is wrong, so...


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 19, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> If there is a "sir" after every time the instructor speaks, that is a bit much...reminds me of the Japanese schools going around saying "oss" or "osu" every time they think of something...it is irritating and frustrating!
> 
> I can think of a  good reason to force students to speak during a training session...it is to keep them from holding their breath...it forces breathing, but there are better ways than to say "Sir" every few seconds!
> 
> Most TKD schools that I know of have a very high percentage of children "training" so most of their instruction, including for adults, is geared towards children, and building their character, and they infantilize adults because they do not know how to instruct adults.





MI_martialist said:


> Our Sensei will go mad if we say "Sir" to him...during class, when he needs a response from us, it is "Hai!"...if we need too all him..."Sensei!"...  "Sir" is not a Japanese term...



Regarding Osu...

The organization I'm in (Seido Juku) and Kyokushin (where Seido came from) probably say it more than anyone else.  It was annoying at first, then it became habit, and now it doesn't feel official if I don't say it 

Regarding "Hai"...
I worked out at an Okinawan dojo for a summer (Seiyu Oyata's Ryu Te Renmei).  They said hai just as often as I was used to saying osu.  It annoyed me until I realized they or I were substituting one word for another.


----------



## MI_martialist (Aug 19, 2017)

But the "Oss" or "Osu" is not a word substitution.  The words have different meanings.  "Oss" or "Osu" is a challenge...one that comes from the instructor to the students, and not back to the instructor..."Hai" is an acknowledgement of understanding!



JR 137 said:


> Regarding Osu...
> 
> The organization I'm in (Seido Juku) and Kyokushin (where Seido came from) probably say it more than anyone else.  It was annoying at first, then it became habit, and now it doesn't feel official if I don't say it
> 
> ...


----------



## MI_martialist (Aug 19, 2017)

Yes...and these titles are never ones that one gives oneself...they are bestowed on the person, and hence should be respected and used as appropriate.



Midnight-shadow said:


> Can you not still give people respect without calling them sir/sensei/sifu? I believe you can. When I'm teaching I hate being called "sir" but I still demand respect from my students. This comes in the form of listening carefully when I'm explaining the exercises and doing those exercises to the best of their ability. Consider this. Is it more disrespectful to call a person "sir" and not listen to them, than to say nothing and listen carefully to them?
> 
> I'm glad that my instructor holds a similar opinion. Hell, he doesn't even call himself "sifu" or "Master" like so many others do, because he doesn't think the title is deserved nor appropriate. I personally respect him more for that than if he insisted on using some honorific.


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 19, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> But the "Oss" or "Osu" is not a word substitution.  The words have different meanings.  "Oss" or "Osu" is a challenge...one that comes from the instructor to the students, and not back to the instructor..."Hai" is an acknowledgement of understanding!


I'm not a native Japanese speaker, nor do I speak Japanese other than "dojo Japanese" as I like to call it, and a few Japanese phrases I've picked up from friends and coworkers...

Hai means yes.  Just like English, yes can be used as literal yes, or as you say acknowledgement.

Not to turn this into an osu meaning thread, but...

There's a bunch of different views on osu, even amongst native Japanese speakers.  I've seen several Japanese people correct non-Japanese on their understanding of osu, and many of them contradict each other.

I use osu as I was taught it: short for oshishinobu.  It can mean persevere, used as acknowledgement, a greeting, and so on.  In our dojo, it's kind of a universal word.  Our founder was born and raised in Japan (Tadashi Nakamura). His teacher was Mas Oyama of Kyokushin.  Nakamura's contemporaries such as Shigeru Oyama, Hideyuki Ashihara, Joko Ninomiya, et. al. all also use the word the same way.  They don't view it as a challenge put back on the teacher.

Other Japanese schools that didn't come from Kyokushin do the same.

On paper, osu isn't a substitution for hai.  In the dojos I've been to that use hai as frequently as we use osu, it practice it's basically using a different word the same way.

I've also found many Okinawan schools don't like osu.  They tend to range from being annoyed by it to despising it.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Aug 19, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> Yes...and these titles are never ones that one gives oneself...they are bestowed on the person, and hence should be respected and used as appropriate.



Yes but the titles themselves are used to describe the relationship between teacher and student. For example, the person who teaches you Martial Arts is your Sensei, and you are his student. That is the relationship. I am not his student therefore there is no point in me calling him Sensei no matter how great a Martial Artist he is or claims to be. For me to call him Sensei would imply a relationship that I didn't have with him. This is also why my instructor doesn't claim to be a Sifu or Master, because to him a Sifu is not only a teacher, but a mentor, protector and (sort of) father-figure to the student. He doesn't feel that he has that kind of deep connection with his students and therefore the title is unjustified.

There is only one person in the world who I would ever consider calling "Master" because that was exactly what he was to me.

Here's a question for you. If you have no students can you still be called a Sensei or Sifu?


----------



## Andrew Green (Aug 19, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Here's a question for you. If you have no students can you still be called a Sensei or Sifu?



In University I took a intro to Japanese course and basically came to the conclusion that pretty much everything I had learnt about Japanese through non-native speakers in martial arts clubs was wrong.  Ok, maybe wrong is too strong of a word, but just kind of... "off".  It's been almost 20 years and I've forgotten pretty much everything, but...

Language works together as a whole, it needs context.  Without that we try to take the word and give it a definition in English.  But that doesn't always work, because the context is lacking and the cultural context is off.

Sensei was one of those words.  It's not a title, it's not something you use towards yourself.  You don't introduce yourself as "Sensei ____", it's usage had more to do with a relationship and the context.  It had bugger all to do with getting a black belt.

So I'd say your question is a "no" because their is no relationship their, so the honorific "sensei" has no real meaning.

Of course at this point we have basically taken the word "Sensei" and added it to the English language giving it the meaning of "Martial arts teacher", but personally I'll stick to the words we already have in English where a good one exists.  I go by "Andrew" or "Coach" with the kids.


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 19, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> In University I took a intro to Japanese course and basically came to the conclusion that pretty much everything I had learnt about Japanese through non-native speakers in martial arts clubs was wrong.  Ok, maybe wrong is too strong of a word, but just kind of... "off".  It's been almost 20 years and I've forgotten pretty much everything, but...
> 
> Language works together as a whole, it needs context.  Without that we try to take the word and give it a definition in English.  But that doesn't always work, because the context is lacking and the cultural context is off.
> 
> ...


They don't call you sir? 

On a more serious note...

I had several Japanese friends/coworkers when I worked in the NYC area.  It's hard to explain, but what I gathered is the term sensei used in a non-MA setting is for a teacher whom is well respected, revered, etc.  Art teachers, pottery teachers, etc. can commonly be called sensei by their long term students.  Maybe better put, it's a way of affectionately calling someone teacher, in a sense.  Again, hard to describe.

Was the head of your organization and/or dojo a native Japanese speaker?  The organization I'm in is founded by Tadashi Nakamura, a native Japanese karateka.  All of our terminology comes from him.  Some non-MA Japanese people say some things are wrong, others say it's correct.  I think it's all about context.  And perhaps some of the terms come from Okinawan language/dialects rather than mainland Japanese, further confusing the issue.  That's just a guess though.


----------



## MI_martialist (Aug 20, 2017)

Well, of course the title describes the relationship, but it is an honorific, so I would have no issue calling any legitimate Sensei "Sensei".  The question is...what makes a legitimate Sensei?  There are "Grand Masters" that I call Mr. So and So, who call me Sensei.

As for the 1 person you would call master...I did not know we were talking about Masters here...in fact, if we really understand the title Shihan, for example...one speaks of mastering the curriculum and the ability to transmit the knowledge to others, and nothing else.

I only have 1 MASTER in my life...but the equivalency is false and is made false due to a poor understanding of the language.



Midnight-shadow said:


> Yes but the titles themselves are used to describe the relationship between teacher and student. For example, the person who teaches you Martial Arts is your Sensei, and you are his student. That is the relationship. I am not his student therefore there is no point in me calling him Sensei no matter how great a Martial Artist he is or claims to be. For me to call him Sensei would imply a relationship that I didn't have with him. This is also why my instructor doesn't claim to be a Sifu or Master, because to him a Sifu is not only a teacher, but a mentor, protector and (sort of) father-figure to the student. He doesn't feel that he has that kind of deep connection with his students and therefore the title is unjustified.
> 
> There is only one person in the world who I would ever consider calling "Master" because that was exactly what he was to me.
> 
> Here's a question for you. If you have no students can you still be called a Sensei or Sifu?


----------



## Hyoho (Aug 20, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> They don't call you sir?
> 
> On a more serious note...
> 
> ...



 As far as TKD is concerned it was created by a General. One would expect it to have militaristic tendencies.

As a teacher in Japan I can perhaps answer that. Sensei is a common term for teacher or someone you respect that teaches you even if he has no qualifications. A Doctor is sensei, so is a Dentist, Professor. But....... out of work you will be called just plain "San". Sensei ( 先生) means someone that was born before you. Best are banks. They call all customers Sama. Sama ( 様) indicates an intentionally elevated level of respect. 

What many dont seem to realize is you should never, ever, ever, refer to yourself as Sensei or Sama unless you are making a joke. This is very rude. You might as well start asking people to get on their knees and bow down to you. Only use this on other people.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 20, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> In University I took a intro to Japanese course and basically came to the conclusion that pretty much everything I had learnt about Japanese through non-native speakers in martial arts clubs was wrong.  Ok, maybe wrong is too strong of a word, but just kind of... "off".  It's been almost 20 years and I've forgotten pretty much everything, but...
> 
> Language works together as a whole, it needs context.  Without that we try to take the word and give it a definition in English.  But that doesn't always work, because the context is lacking and the cultural context is off.
> 
> ...


What I've been told (by folks who studied in Japan, though none were native to the language) is that Sensei is an honorific. It's apparently often used when addressing someone with specialized knowledge when you are asking them for advice/help. I may be misremembering this, but I think they told me it was even used when talking to an attorney.

I do know instructors who introduce themselves as "Sensei Smith", which would be odd (at best) to a native Japanese speaker. On a further note, I think the honorific is normally (in Japanese) placed after the name.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Aug 20, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> As for the 1 person you would call master...I did not know we were talking about Masters here...in fact, if we really understand the title Shihan, for example...one speaks of mastering the curriculum and the ability to transmit the knowledge to others, and nothing else.



Ok, so I should probably explain my reasoning here. To my mind there are 2 uses of the term "Master". Firstly, to master something is to have complete knowledge and skill of it, to the point where you cannot really improve at it. Secondly you can also be a Master of someone which is what I was referring to before. When you are a Master of someone it is not only your responsibility to teach them, but to guide them and protect them, the same as a traditional Sifu or Sensei. In exchange for this, the Master's student pledges their loyalty to the Master and helps them in any way they can. To me, a Sifu or Sensei is more than just a Teacher, they are a Master, even if they haven't fully perfected the art they practice.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Aug 20, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> As far as TKD is concerned it was created by a General. One would expect it to have militaristic tendencies.
> 
> As a teacher in Japan I can perhaps answer that. Sensei is a common term for teacher or someone you respect that teaches you even if he has no qualifications. A Doctor is sensei, so is a Dentist, Professor. But....... out of work you will be called just plain "San". Sensei ( 先生) means someone that was born before you. Best are banks. They call all customers Sama. Sama ( 様) indicates an intentionally elevated level of respect.
> 
> What many dont seem to realize is you should never, ever, ever, refer to yourself as Sensei or Sama unless you are making a joke. This is very rude. You might as well start asking people to get on their knees and bow down to you. Only use this on other people.



I am told that one never calls oneself 'san' either. Others call you that, you call them that. One might call me Mattocks San or Bill San, but I would not introduce myself that way.


----------



## Hyoho (Aug 20, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Ok, so I should probably explain my reasoning here. To my mind there are 2 uses of the term "Master". Firstly, to master something is to have complete knowledge and skill of it, to the point where you cannot really improve at it. Secondly you can also be a Master of someone which is what I was referring to before. When you are a Master of someone it is not only your responsibility to teach them, but to guide them and protect them, the same as a traditional Sifu or Sensei. In exchange for this, the Master's student pledges their loyalty to the Master and helps them in any way they can. To me, a Sifu or Sensei is more than just a Teacher, they are a Master, even if they haven't fully perfected the art they practice.



The term master is usually a title in Japanese For example the term Soke where complete transmission is handed down. We can use the term Shihan when one person is the only head teacher of a particular school. But in both cases one refers to that person as Sensei. 

If one is still is in training one does not have a "full cup" and is not a master. Sadly some people think they are masters before their time and move on witha half filled cup. The term giri (obligation) is not something we see so much of these days.

As to improvement, one never stops learning. I have the above title but think of myself as a 'student'. Hoping to learn more to hand on to my students. Hopefully ego is taken over by humility in this quest.


----------



## Hyoho (Aug 20, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I am told that one never calls oneself 'san' either. Others call you that, you call them that. One might call me Mattocks San or Bill San, but I would not introduce myself that way.


 Exactly. Also if somebody calls you 'San' using your first name it's also very familiar. Normally a family thing.


----------



## Jenna (Aug 20, 2017)

Elocin said:


> I think all humans deserve a basic respect





Elocin said:


> I can't get behind the idea that all elders deserve a deep respect.. and my teacher talks about it a lot.



In which case, what is the difference between deep respect and basic respect in your view


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 20, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> As far as TKD is concerned it was created by a General. One would expect it to have militaristic tendencies.
> 
> As a teacher in Japan I can perhaps answer that. Sensei is a common term for teacher or someone you respect that teaches you even if he has no qualifications. A Doctor is sensei, so is a Dentist, Professor. But....... out of work you will be called just plain "San". Sensei ( 先生) means someone that was born before you. Best are banks. They call all customers Sama. Sama ( 様) indicates an intentionally elevated level of respect.
> 
> What many dont seem to realize is you should never, ever, ever, refer to yourself as Sensei or Sama unless you are making a joke. This is very rude. You might as well start asking people to get on their knees and bow down to you. Only use this on other people.


That's how it was explained to me, but you put it far better than I did.

You said "...out of work you'll be called just plan 'San.'"  Is this true of MA teacher's as well (in general)?  If I studied karate in Japan and saw my teacher out in public, would it be common to address to him as sensei or any other title he's called in the dojo?

My organization (again, started by a native Japanese immigrant) has the rule that you address people who hold a title by their title outside the dojo unless that person tells you otherwise.  Is this common in Japan, or do you think it's been Americanized?  I'm not a fan of that policy, but it is what it is.  The few people I've bumped into in public didn't want to be addressed by their karate title.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 20, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> The term master is usually a title in Japanese For example the term Soke where complete transmission is handed down. We can use the term Shihan when one person is the only head teacher of a particular school. But in both cases one refers to that person as Sensei.
> 
> If one is still is in training one does not have a "full cup" and is not a master. Sadly some people think they are masters before their time and move on witha half filled cup. The term giri (obligation) is not something we see so much of these days.
> 
> As to improvement, one never stops learning. I have the above title but think of myself as a 'student'. Hoping to learn more to hand on to my students. Hopefully ego is taken over by humility in this quest.


This is something I've been meaning to ask. Is "shihan" a title or an honorific?

I think part of the problem with "master" is that the English word maps to so many different concepts. I've seen it used similar to "sensei", and I'm comfortable with that. I've also seen it used to refer to someone who is a surpassing expert at something (including a specific MA), and I'm comfortable with that, in context. But they are very different things.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 20, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> That's how it was explained to me, but you put it far better than I did.
> 
> You said "...out of work you'll be called just plan 'San.'"  Is this true of MA teacher's as well (in general)?  If I studied karate in Japan and saw my teacher out in public, would it be common to address to him as sensei or any other title he's called in the dojo?
> 
> My organization (again, started by a native Japanese immigrant) has the rule that you address people who hold a title by their title outside the dojo unless that person tells you otherwise.  Is this common in Japan, or do you think it's been Americanized?  I'm not a fan of that policy, but it is what it is.  The few people I've bumped into in public didn't want to be addressed by their karate title.


Not an answer to your question, but I feel the need to share anyway...

I have my students call me "sensei" or "Mr. Seymour" in the dojo, because that's part of the tradition I was trained in, so it's comfortable to me (and keeps them from messing up etiquette if they go to other TMA dojos). I've respectfully forbidden them from using those terms outside the dojo, because it drives me nuts.


----------



## jks9199 (Aug 20, 2017)

A thought on language...

Even when students learn the words and phrases from a given language from a native speaker, they are passed through two filters (at least), especially as schools and generations expand.  The first filter is the environment; there are words that carry particular meanings in particular environments.  Easy example: "Yes, sir" in the Navy and Marine Corps is an affirmative reply to a question.  "Aye, aye, sir" is a response that you have heard and will comply with an order or direction.  Or just think of the confusion when you give someone directions and they respond "right" to indicate that they're hearing you...  There are words or phrases that are used in either particular ways or not used outside a training hall...  The second filter I'll call the student's culture.  The non-native student is interpreting and applying the words through their own filters of custom and language.  So we get the massive weight that the word "master" or "sensei" has acquired in US (maybe Western) schools of Asian arts...

Which leads to "sir" or other signs of respect.  I don't live very far from Quantico USMC Base -- home of, among other things, The Basic School -- where the Corp trains its new officers in everything they need to know to be Marine officers.  I also spend time among police academy recruits.  One thing both groups have in common -- a habit of "sir"ing everything that moves!  It's drilled into them, for several reasons that I really don't feel like going into.  Within a martial arts school, there should be respect for teachers and senior students, as people who know more than you and are in a position to teach you (if not -- why the hell are you there?).  Carry to an extreme, and it gets silly.  (And, point to ponder, do you really want to teach children to unthinkingly respond to directions from adults?)  Even more so if you're so worried about responding "Sir!" to everything the teacher/coach says that you end up missing what's said...


----------



## Andrew Green (Aug 20, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> Even when students learn the words and phrases from a given language from a native speaker, they are passed through two filters (at least), especially as schools and generations expand.  The first filter is the environment; there are words that carry particular meanings in particular environments.



A fact that a lot of people take advantage of.  We have "Master" and "sir" which get passed through context filters obviously.  And those differ greatly.  Call a NCO "Sir" in the Canadian Armed Forces and you will likely get a ear full about that being wrong.  But then their are things like the BJJ crowd using the term "Professor", which in Portuguese is, as I understand it, the right term.  But in our culture that term has a very specific meaning.

Martial arts schools don't speak the native language of the art in the vast majority of cases, but just insert bits and pieces.  I suppose I get it, language is a part of building a culture and creating a "tribe" as Seth Godin would put it.  And their is a fuzzy line there, what one person would call honouring a culture another might call cultural appropriation.  

For me I'll use English though, unless no suitable English term exists.  

At the end of the day whether you call it a double wrist lock, a kimura, a reverse key lock, a gyaku ude-garami a figure four or anything else doesn't matter, the technique is the same and the schools culture will remain as long as everyone uses the same terms for the same things within the school.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Aug 20, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> Which leads to "sir" or other signs of respect.  I don't live very far from Quantico USMC Base -- home of, among other things, The Basic School -- where the Corp trains its new officers in everything they need to know to be Marine officers.  I also spend time among police academy recruits.  One thing both groups have in common -- a habit of "sir"ing everything that moves!  It's drilled into them, for several reasons that I really don't feel like going into.  Within a martial arts school, there should be respect for teachers and senior students, as people who know more than you and are in a position to teach you (if not -- why the hell are you there?).  Carry to an extreme, and it gets silly.  (And, point to ponder, do you really want to teach children to unthinkingly respond to directions from adults?)  Even more so if you're so worried about responding "Sir!" to everything the teacher/coach says that you end up missing what's said...



Quantico, Quantico...seems I've heard that name somewhere before...


----------



## Rough Rider (Aug 20, 2017)

Wow, there's a lot of talk about Japanese language and traditions, considering that the OP studies a Korean art.

Anyway, time for my 2 cents.  

My TKD dojang is also very big on "sir" and "ma'am".  Coming from a military background, I had no problem adjusting to this.  It's not "every syllable" but it is expected.  This scenario is common with new students:
Master: (after showing a technique) "Do you understand?"
Student: "Yes." 
Master: (sternly) "Yes, sir?"
Student: "Yes, sir!"

Until I came to this forum, I thought that it was quite common.  My daughter was at a different school for a short time before we came to this one, and it was the same way.  I also interact with other schools at tournaments and they seem similar.

Here's something that may be different, though.  At my school, "sir" and "ma'am" isn't just said by juniors addressing seniors.  We all address each other that way.  The master will often say to a white belt "Sir, go to ring 3 and practice your form."


----------



## Hyoho (Aug 20, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This is something I've been meaning to ask. Is "Shihan" a title or an honorific?
> 
> I think part of the problem with "master" is that the English word maps to so many different concepts. I've seen it used similar to "sensei", and I'm comfortable with that. I've also seen it used to refer to someone who is a surpassing expert at something (including a specific MA), and I'm comfortable with that, in context. But they are very different things.



It's a title. Nobody calls me Shihan. Just plain 'sensei'. For example, X Sensei is the Shihan of XX Ryu. Shihan is a head sensei or an actual head of a ryu. More prevalent in older Ryu and Karate.


----------



## Hyoho (Aug 20, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> That's how it was explained to me, but you put it far better than I did.
> 
> You said "...out of work you'll be called just plain 'San.'"  Is this true of MA teacher's as well (in general)?  If I studied karate in Japan and saw my teacher out in public, would it be common to address to him as sensei or any other title he's called in the dojo?
> 
> My organization (again, started by a native Japanese immigrant) has the rule that you address people who hold a title by their title outside the dojo unless that person tells you otherwise.  Is this common in Japan, or do you think it's been Americanized?  I'm not a fan of that policy, but it is what it is.  The few people I've bumped into in public didn't want to be addressed by their karate title.


 
I would call my own sensei just that if I met them out. Then again that's in Japan. When I do international seminars I still get called sensei in and out. It's a personal thing. But maybe that's me and I am used to it. I never demand it of anyone. Its a cultural thing. We learn the art and learn the language. But after so many years of it I even bow on the telephone


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 20, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> It's a title. Nobody calls me Shihan. Just plain 'sensei'. For example, X Sensei is the Shihan of XX Ryu. Shihan is a head sensei or an actual head of a ryu. More prevalent in older Ryu and Karate.


Interesting. In the NGAA, Shihan is used for 5th Dan and up, and is often used in place of "Sensei". So, would it be correct to say Shihan is used more like King? A King isn't properly addressed as "King Smith" (though that would be an appropriate way to refer to them), but as "Your Majesty"?

To heck with all this. I'm having my students call me "Your Majesty" from now on.


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 20, 2017)

Rough Rider said:


> Wow, there's a lot of talk about Japanese language and traditions, considering that the OP studies a Korean art.
> 
> Anyway, time for my 2 cents.
> 
> ...



Coming from Seido Juku, it's "osu, sensei."  To be honest, I think "yes, sir/ma'am" would be better, especially for the kids.  IMO the respect level would be the same, but it would have more significance in our culture.


----------



## jks9199 (Aug 20, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I\
> To heck with all this. I'm having my students call me "Your Majesty" from now on.



I'm kinder... I'll settle for "Excellency."


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 20, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> I would call my own sensei just that if I met them out. Then again that's in Japan. When I do international seminars I still get called sensei in and out. It's a personal thing. But maybe that's me and I am used to it. I never demand it of anyone. Its a cultural thing. We learn the art and learn the language. But after so many years of it I even bow on the telephone


I address my teacher and others by their appropriate title if/when I see them out too.  It's a respect thing.


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 20, 2017)

A theme I notice when people have problems addressing others by their title is I think many times they confuse respect with subservience.  Respect and subservience are not one in the same.  Not at all.


----------



## Hyoho (Aug 20, 2017)

One thing japanese dont s


JR 137 said:


> Coming from Seido Juku, it's "osu, sensei."  To be honest, I think "yes, sir/ma'am" would be better, especially for the kids.  IMO the respect level would be the same, but it would have more significance in our culture.



Well if you want to mix cultures that's fine. For some of us it's just as much a literary study as well as practical. A study of Kanji based on Confucian precepts and Buddhist meaning of a text to try and explore what are teachers are really trying to tell us to do. My Soke used to have us sit down in front of a whiteboard after practice for an hour. 

It's just too easy to mix in what we do know in both culture and practice with what we have yet to learn and make it something it's not.http://www.martialtalk.com/threads/the-sir-aspect-of-taekwondo.125256/reply?quote=1857379


----------



## Hyoho (Aug 20, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> A theme I notice when people have problems addressing others by their title is I think many times they confuse respect with subservience.  Respect and subservience are not one in the same.  Not at all.



You hit the nail on the head there. Humility trying to overcome ego is hard for some. You can never bow down as low as a respectful old lady in Japan who thinks she is beholden to everybody. Bowing means 'thank you' in Japan.


----------



## Andrew Green (Aug 20, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> One thing japanese dont s
> 
> 
> Well if you want to mix cultures that's fine. For some of us it's just as much a literary study as well as practical. A study of Kanji based on Confucian precepts and Buddhist meaning of a text to try and explore what are teachers are really trying to tell us to do. My Soke used to have us sit down in front of a whiteboard after practice for an hour.
> ...



Soke?  I assume then that you are with a koryo style and a long lineage tree?  Otherwise I would doubt his claims on language study.  Maybe you are, and that's awesome, but Soke seems to be one of those terms tossed around by those that wanted to have a bigger, better title then just going with sensei and more authentic sounding then master in the west.

Again, why I personally don't like injecting a language I and my students do not speak natively.  To easy to misuse and that takes away from those that do understand and use those terms correct in the the correct context.


----------



## Hyoho (Aug 20, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> Soke?  I assume then that you are with a koryo style and a long lineage tree?  Otherwise I would doubt his claims on language study.  Maybe you are, and that's awesome, but Soke seems to be one of those terms tossed around by those that wanted to have a bigger, better title then just going with sensei and more authentic sounding then master in the west.
> 
> Again, why I personally don't like injecting a language I and my students do not speak natively.  To easy to misuse and that takes away from those that do understand and use those terms correct in the the correct context.



 I don't live in the West. A Japanese resident. Licence holder of one rather old Ryu and Shihan of another with a quite a few association dan grades. But nothing special there to anyone who gives up their lives to devote themselves to something.

Yes, the title Soke is tossed around to a ridiculous level.  Soke: Historical Incarnations of a Title and its Entitlements

I think the words 'lineage tree' also seem to be tossed around too much as well.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Aug 21, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> I'm kinder... I'll settle for "Excellency."



Remo Williams told Chiun that he was "incredible," to which Chiun replied, "No, I am better than that."


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Aug 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This is something I've been meaning to ask. Is "shihan" a title or an honorific?
> 
> I think part of the problem with "master" is that the English word maps to so many different concepts. I've seen it used similar to "sensei", and I'm comfortable with that. I've also seen it used to refer to someone who is a surpassing expert at something (including a specific MA), and I'm comfortable with that, in context. But they are very different things.



In Isshinryu, Shihan is a title.  As is Kyoshi, Renshi, Hanshi, and Soke.  Not used much, and never by people to describe themselves.

In my particular lineage of Isshinryu, the only titles I hear other than Sensei are Hanshi and Soke.

But my lineage is short - from our founder, Shimabuku Tatsuo Soke, to his direct American students (Mitchum Sensei and Harrill Sensei) to my Sensei, who is a 9th Dan Hanshi, to me.  Hanshi was a term that simply means examplar, the model of the style, one whom others should pattern themselves after, an exemplary person.

In some styles of karate and some lineages of Isshinryu, the titles come with the rank.  Meaning if a person is 5th Dan, they are also Kyoshi (or whatever, I'm not clear on them, since we don't follow them).  In others, including our own lineage, titles are extremely rare, and are given at any rank, separately from Dan rank, and only by the head of the organization.  One can be a 9th Dan and not be a Hanshi, or be a Hanshi and not be a 9th Dan.

I don't get too wrapped around the axle about any of it.  As previously mentioned, I use the honorific 'sir' when I speak to my Sensei, and I address him as Sensei, although by some rules of other organizations, he should be addressed as 'Grand Master'.  He does not want to be called that, so we do not call him that.  Me, I'm none of the above.  Just a karateka, and I'm fine with that.


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 21, 2017)

We had a guy come into our academic school to do an after school TKD program for the kids.  He was an interesting fellow.  He introduced himself as "Master Dave" to everyone - prospective students, parents, teachers; everyone.  It was quite comical.

Fellow teachers started asking me in my teacher introduces himself like that.  I started laughing and said "No.  He's a normal human being who introduces himself by his name."

Every Monday and Wednesday when he'd walk in, I'd jokingly say to my colleagues who were in earshot of me "Master Bates is here."  One person asked me if that's really his last name.  "No, but I really wish it was."

Another thing...

Is 4th dan a master level in TKD?  The lowest dan rank I've seen that title is 5th dan.  Both karate organizations I've been in didn't use that title until 6th dan.


----------



## Rough Rider (Aug 21, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Is 4th dan a master level in TKD? The lowest dan rank I've seen that title is 5th dan. Both karate organizations I've been in didn't use that title until 6th dan.



In some organizations, yes.  At my school, 4th Dan is the minimum for Master, but it's not automatic.  When I started, there were two 4th Dan instructors who were called Master.  They've both been promoted to 5th Dan since then.  We had another instructor who was a 3rd Dan when I started.  When he was promoted to 4th, he was still called Instructor.  I asked him about that, and he told me that there were other requirements to be met.  Four years later, he was promoted to 5th Dan and Master at the same time.


----------



## shihansmurf (Aug 21, 2017)

I'm still trying to get my students to call me "Papa Smurf" but so far it has been a non starter....


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 21, 2017)

shihansmurf said:


> I'm still trying to get my students to call me "Papa Smurf" but so far it has been a non starter....


You are recruiting the wrong kind of students.

By the way, I see you're in Casper. My dad lives there - I hope you managed to get out and see the eclipse today, as I know you guys were in the path of totality.


----------



## lklawson (Aug 22, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> But then their are things like the BJJ crowd using the term "Professor", which in Portuguese is, as I understand it, the right term.  But in our culture that term has a very specific meaning.


It was not unheard for boxing coaches in North America during the late 19th Century and early 20th to be called "Professor," particularly when teaching in a official or semi-official position at a college club.  IMS, Savatte uses the term as well.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Aug 22, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> We had a guy come into our academic school to do an after school TKD program for the kids.  He was an interesting fellow.  He introduced himself as "Master Dave" to everyone - prospective students, parents, teachers; everyone.  It was quite comical.
> 
> Fellow teachers started asking me in my teacher introduces himself like that.  I started laughing and said "No.  He's a normal human being who introduces himself by his name."
> 
> Every Monday and Wednesday when he'd walk in, I'd jokingly say to my colleagues who were in earshot of me "Master Bates is here."  One person asked me if that's really his last name.  "No, but I really wish it was."


Ages ago I stopped in a Tang Soo Do school in Vandalia, OH, just to see. (TSD was my "first" art as a teen.)  Class wasn't in session but the Dojang was open.  After a few min. a man came out from the back.  I stuck my hand out, smiled and said, "Hi, I'm Kirk."  He took my hand and said, "I'm Sabum."

I thought to my self, "You're not *MY* teacher."  Then I politely looked at a few of the photos on his wall, one or two of the people I know (Master Steve Wall from Michigan last I heard), while completely ignoring anything else he was saying.

Completely soured me on his school.  If I ever considered getting back into TSD (unlikely) it wouldn't be his school.  I wish him luck, but first impressions count.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## shihansmurf (Aug 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You are recruiting the wrong kind of students.
> 
> By the way, I see you're in Casper. My dad lives there - I hope you managed to get out and see the eclipse today, as I know you guys were in the path of totality.



I did and it was awe inspiring.  Feel free to stop in and check out our class if you make it up here to visit you dad.


----------



## lklawson (Aug 22, 2017)

Elocin said:


> Doing things without questioning is not a way to learn.


Actually, for now, yes it is.  Look, I'm not trying to offend so bear with me please.  You say that you are a new student, new to the martial arts, right?  You're a beginning student; metaphorically a "child."  You have not yet gotten enough experience and training to understand the reason why some things are done some ways some of the times.  Just as parents of young children often have to answer the question of "but why?" with "because I say so," so too do you, as a new martial arts student, sometimes have to accept that your instructor may have a perfectly good reason for why something is done a certain way and you are not yet prepared to question it.

Some things in any physical skill, similar to any intellectual skill, require a foundation before you can understand the reason.  But because you don't yet understand the foundation doesn't mean that the elements built upon that foundation are not true.   Learn addition before algebra.  Learn algebra before trig.

If you force your instructor to answer "but why?" all the time during class, then class time will be wasted and the other students won't be getting their fair time.  Once you have developed the appropriate base of knowledge and skill, then you will have the base to understand the answers, if you haven't already figured them out by that time for yourself (which is a strong possibility).

If you insist on the "but why?" do so after class.  If your instructor won't give you his time for free after class to answer your "but why?" in depth, then either accept that, pay for his time, or find a different school more to your liking.  But, in the end, *YES*, there *are* times, particularly for you, the new student, when "doing things without questioning" *IS* the way to learn.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2017)

shihansmurf said:


> I did and it was awe inspiring.  Feel free to stop in and check out our class if you make it up here to visit you dad.


Happily - thanks for the invitation!


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Aug 22, 2017)

shihansmurf said:


> I'm still trying to get my students to call me "Papa Smurf" but so far it has been a non starter....



I'm working on 'Gru', myself.


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 22, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Ages ago I stopped in a Tang Soo Do school in Vandalia, OH, just to see. (TSD was my "first" art as a teen.)  Class wasn't in session but the Dojang was open.  After a few min. a man came out from the back.  I stuck my hand out, smiled and said, "Hi, I'm Kirk."  He took my hand and said, "I'm Sabum."
> 
> I thought to my self, "You're not *MY* teacher."  Then I politely looked at a few of the photos on his wall, one or two of the people I know (Master Steve Wall from Michigan last I heard), while completely ignoring anything else he was saying.
> 
> ...


Both CIs I've studied under introduced themselves to me by their given name; no title.  Everyone in both dojos who had a title did the same.  Except for one at my first dojo.  Funny thing was, she was easily on the biggest power trip and worthy of the least respect.  Last I heard, two dojos have shown her the door (including my previous dojo).  Same m.o. both times - she's a great student when she starts, a great assistant instructor when she's initially promoted to that position, then she starts to get comfortable and slowly starts showing her true colors.  It's too bad, she's a very good person on a one on one basis when there's no pressure to be "in charge" and a very knowledgeable and skilled practitioner.


----------



## Rough Rider (Aug 22, 2017)

lklawson said:


> He took my hand and said, "I'm Sabum."



It could have been worse.  At least he didn't say "I'm Sabum Nim".  "Nim" should only be used when referring to somebody else, not yourself.  I learned this as I've been studying Korean outside of the dojang.  The instructors at my school make this mistake.  At the beginning of class, after bowing to the flag, the following commands are given:  Face the front; Chareut; Sabum Nim Kke; Kyong-nye.  On the few occaisions that I'm asked to lead warm-ups, I go with: Face the front; Chareut; Kyong-nye.


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 22, 2017)

Rough Rider said:


> It could have been worse.  At least he didn't say "I'm Sabum Nim".  "Nim" should only be used when referring to somebody else, not yourself.  I learned this as I've been studying Korean outside of the dojang.  The instructors at my school make this mistake.  At the beginning of class, after bowing to the flag, the following commands are given:  Face the front; Chareut; Sabum Nim Kke; Kyong-nye.  On the few occaisions that I'm asked to lead warm-ups, I go with: Face the front; Chareut; Kyong-nye.


Your post just made me realize something...

To start class, the person teaching has us kneel in seiza, then says:
Shinzen ni rei (bow to the front)
Kaicho ni rei (bow to the picture of our founder/chairman)
Nidaime ni rei (bow to the picture of his named successor/son)

Then the senior most student without a title will say:
Mokuso (meditate)
Mokuso yame (stop)
Shuseki shihan ni rei (bow to our CI)
Etc.

The person will NEVER say their own title.  When we bow out informally to start or end, if the person running class leads it all the way through, they always say "bow here" (reference to them self).

One of the little things that just clicked.

And everyone in the dojo I met for the first time, I had to ask them what their title was, if any.  No one introduced them self as "sensei x" "shihan y" etc.  They all shook my hand and said "I'm Joe Smith" or whatever their name is.


----------



## Hyoho (Aug 23, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Your post just made me realize something...
> 
> To start class, the person teaching has us kneel in seiza, then says:
> Shinzen ni rei (bow to the front)
> ...



I have never heard kaicho used in a dojo. It usually refers to a company president. Could be association president but you never refer to them as such. Photographs/pictures of people in dojo are of dead ones. They are printed in black and white. One does not put up pictures of live ones These photographs are hung or placed in what we would call shinzen. It is now called "shinden" as it has a religious implication of honouring the dead (like a shrine).   So now we say "shinden ni rei", clap the hands twice and bow.  

I did visit a dojo once and see a photograph of a living person. I bowed to offer my condolences.


----------



## lklawson (Aug 23, 2017)

Rough Rider said:


> It could have been worse.


To be honest, I wouldn't have viewed it as "worse" per se, but, instead, equivalent.  Both are presumptions.  "Nim" would have been presumptuous of an honorific that I have not agreed to.  "Sabum" was presumptuous of an instructor-student relationship.  It was, frankly, a tad insulting.  Interestingly (to me anyhow) there are some historic contexts where such a presumption would have been the beginning of a Duel.

"Hello, I am Kirk."
"I am you teacher."
"Take our your sword and let's see if you have anything to 'teach' me."



Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 23, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> I have never heard kaicho used in a dojo. It usually refers to a company president. Could be association president but you never refer to them as such. Photographs/pictures of people in dojo are of dead ones. They are printed in black and white. One does not put up pictures of live ones These photographs are hung or placed in what we would call shinzen. It is now called "shinden" as it has a religious implication of honouring the dead (like a shrine).   So now we say "shinden ni rei", clap the hands twice and bow.
> 
> I did visit a dojo once and see a photograph of a living person. I bowed to offer my condolences.


Very interesting.

Not an argument, just observations...

Mas Oyama's picture was at every Kyokushin dojo shinzen while he was alive.

Kyokushin offshoots do the same, as far as I know. 

Just googling "Kaicho," there are many karateka who use this title; the first 3 pages were all Japanese names except one.  Tadashi Nakamura's name came up most.

Picking your brain a little bit...

Is kancho common?  Mas Oyama was referred to as kancho while he was alive.  And by Japanese people.  I've seen several videos about him and Kyokushin in general, narrated in Japanese.  I didn't understand much of anything, but I heard "Oyama Masutatsu Kancho" several times.  I'm not sure if people called him kancho, or just referred to him as such.  I never met him   Nor saw him addressed directly as anything in any videos.

Oyama was later referred to as sosai.  As above, not sure if he was directly called this or not.  It also seems to me that he was referred to as kancho while he was alive, and sosai after his death.  But that could be solely coincidental in the stuff I've read.

I'm starting to think Oyama broke away from mainstream stuff with Kyokushin.  And his students kept those things when they broke away.  I see the same stuff in the Kyokushin offshoots.

Last one...
What is the translation of soshu?  Shigeru Oyama used this title when he formed World Oyama Karate.

Ok, a few more...
What is saiko shihan?  I've seen that one too.
Sei shihan?
Shuseki shihan?

Sorry.  I've googled them and haven't found any translations, just names.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 23, 2017)

lklawson said:


> To be honest, I wouldn't have viewed it as "worse" per se, but, instead, equivalent.  Both are presumptions.  "Nim" would have been presumptuous of an honorific that I have not agreed to.  "Sabum" was presumptuous of an instructor-student relationship.  It was, frankly, a tad insulting.  Interestingly (to me anyhow) there are some historic contexts where such a presumption would have been the beginning of a Duel.
> 
> "Hello, I am Kirk."
> "I am you teacher."
> ...



I think you might be over thinking that.


----------



## Hyoho (Aug 24, 2017)

As you say offshoots. People break away, set up and a new set of titles is born. Japanese are often looking for new words they can use with front and hidden meanings. But we dont see it in budo so much. More of an association thing.

Kancho is usually building or dojo head. Saiko usually refers to excellence or 'the best'. Not usually in a title. Sei would probably translate as 'living'. Shuseki would perhaps mean 'in attendance". I have heard the founder of a ryu being called Ryuso. Dont have the kanji but "best head"? 

I know karate uses shihan a lot but in Japanese Koryu it can be a head of one particular school/ryu. For example TSKSR has family head that does not practice (Soke). The head teacher of all is the Shihan. So if there is no heriditary links shihan is a better alternative.

I know they like to give credit and acknowledge people for level and services but it all rather goes against the grain in trying to learn and extend some kind humility in what we do rather than aggrandisment and ego.

On occasion I have bowed into a dojo to see what I thought were two adults in their 40's doing free pactice so good that everybody watched in amazement and clapped at the end. (They dont wear belts). They take off bogu/practice armour and I see that the best of the two is in his 80s and a Kyu dan. That to me is a "sensei".

Just as a matter of interest some major Japanese budo are now quickly abolishing high grades. Maxed at Hachidan. If others follow suit it will make those in the West that purport to have such levels rather foolish. 

Its a hard task. My teacher actually tried to abolish the title of Soke and have three menkyo kaiden. But it was met with fighting, ego and self importance. So he had to continue with just one head.


----------



## lklawson (Aug 24, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I think you might be over thinking that.


Overthinking what?  To say that in times past it would have been considered an insult worthy of starting a duel?  That's not called overthinking that's called reading a history book.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Aug 24, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> But then their are things like the BJJ crowd using the term "Professor", which in Portuguese is, as I understand it, the right term. But in our culture that term has a very specific meaning.


I think the use of "Professor" in this context is mostly from native Brazilians. I've only been called Professor a couple of times and once was from a high-ranking Brazilian. Mostly I see BJJ instructors addressed by their first names, although I do frequently get called "coach".


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 24, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think the use of "Professor" in this context is mostly from native Brazilians. I've only been called Professor a couple of times and once was from a high-ranking Brazilian. Mostly I see BJJ instructors addressed by their first names, although I do frequently get called "coach".


I've only seen professor used by Brazilian BJJers too.  I haven't seen it used by American BJJers.  Different cultures use different terms.  Although I admittedly haven't been around very many BJJers.

Edit:  What's the term for a BJJer?


----------



## drop bear (Aug 24, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Overthinking what?  To say that in times past it would have been considered an insult worthy of starting a duel?  That's not called overthinking that's called reading a history book.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



So did you fight him then? To preserve your honor.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 24, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I've only seen professor used by Brazilian BJJers too.  I haven't seen it used by American BJJers.  Different cultures use different terms.  Although I admittedly haven't been around very many BJJers.
> 
> Edit:  What's the term for a BJJer?



Jiujiteiro. but BJJer is better. Or ground krotty, combat hugger or butt flopper is also cool.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Just as a matter of interest some major Japanese budo are now quickly abolishing high grades. Maxed at Hachidan. If others follow suit it will make those in the West that purport to have such levels rather foolish.


While I support the idea of reducing the number of ranks (I think the growth of number of ranks may have been tied to older feudal hierarchies, but that's just a guess), I don't think those who don't reduce theirs will look foolish. Their ranks simply won't have a reasonable equivalency, and that exists between associations and groups already.


----------



## Balrog (Aug 25, 2017)

Elocin said:


> So, I am new to TaeKwonDo.
> I am looking to have a mature and NON heated discussion on the aspect of saying "Sir" to everything and the tenets of respect for elders and parents....
> I joined to build a confidence in my self defense abilities as a woman and citizen. I like the tenets about compassion, leadership, and indomitable spirit....I guess you could say I am hung up on my teacher talking about respecting your parents, elders, and teachers. My take on it seems like the class is asking for a blind respect..I say "sir" out of respect for my teacher as I am a student and I think all humans deserve a basic respect; but in my life there have been MANY teachers, and elders (and parent's of others) who I know that do NOT deserve reverence just because they are old, as they abuse the respect of children and have done awful things. I don't think it's a reason to quit TaeKwonDo obviously, but what do you all think about it?
> I can't get behind the idea that all elders deserve a deep respect.. and my teacher talks about it a lot.


In most cases, you don't get to be old by being stupid.

With ATA, we say "respect for my juniors and seniors".  Saying sir or ma'am is simple, basic courtesy to someone.  My students respect me as their teacher and a high-ranking Black Belt.  I respect them because I was once where they were and I know what their journey will be like.


----------



## lklawson (Aug 25, 2017)

drop bear said:


> So did you fight him then? To preserve your honor.


Given that it wasn't 1695 London?  No.

Which part of "historic contexts" are you having difficulty understanding?  Should I use smaller words?

Don't be a dick.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Aug 25, 2017)

I know I am late to the thread but in most martial arts I've trained in, it is always sifu, or sensei. Even when I see them in public that is how I know them, though some have objected to being called that in public which I then call them Mr or Mrs whatever their last name is.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> I know I am late to the thread but in most martial arts I've trained in, it is always sifu, or sensei. Even when I see them in public that is how I know them, though some have objected to being called that in public which I then call them Mr or Mrs whatever their last name is.


I don't even like being called Mr. Seymour outside the dojo. It just sounds weird to me.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Aug 25, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Jiujiteiro. but BJJer is better. Or ground krotty, combat hugger or butt flopper is also cool.


I'm a jiu-jiteiro with specialized skills in combat cuddling.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Aug 25, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think the use of "Professor" in this context is mostly from native Brazilians. I've only been called Professor a couple of times and once was from a high-ranking Brazilian. Mostly I see BJJ instructors addressed by their first names, although I do frequently get called "coach".


I suppose I should update that I just visited a (non-Brazilian) friend's academy to teach a couple of classes and he introduced me as "Professor" each time. At least calling me "Professor Tony" rather than "Professor Dismukes" helped make it clear that I'm not an academic professor.


----------



## Buka (Aug 25, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I suppose I should update that I just visited a (non-Brazilian) friend's academy to teach a couple of classes and he introduced me as "Professor" each time. At least calling me "Professor Tony" rather than "Professor Dismukes" helped make it clear that I'm not an academic professor.



It's such a pain in the butt when you visit a friend's dojo and are introduced by something other than what you happen to use. But what are you going to do? Depending on the situation, it's sometimes kind of bad form to correct him in front of his students.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Aug 25, 2017)

Buka said:


> It's such a pain in the butt when you visit a friend's dojo and are introduced by something other than what you happen to use. But what are you going to do? Depending on the situation, it's sometimes kind of bad form to correct him in front of his students.


As long as he doesn't call me "master", I won't complain about it.


----------



## Buka (Aug 25, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> As long as he doesn't call me "master", I won't complain about it.



Yeah, therein lies the rub. Some of my Karate friends do it a lot. Many of them, after forty odd years of "study", are "Masters" in their particular style. Which is fine with me, but we do not have that designation for any within my group. But they tend to introduce us as so.

Most of the time, after that first incident, I speak with them the next time and remind them I prefer "coach". Some times they actually listen. Whatever anyone wants to be called is fine with me.

I have no problem addressing anyone as Master, regardless of anything. [a few exceptions, of course]


----------



## drop bear (Aug 25, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Given that it wasn't 1695 London?  No.
> 
> Which part of "historic contexts" are you having difficulty understanding?  Should I use smaller words?
> 
> Don't be a dick.



You were not insulted in a historical context. Maybe you were insulted due to a historical context?
Someone called themselves Sabum and they are not your Sabum or something. 

I don't get the issue.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 25, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I suppose I should update that I just visited a (non-Brazilian) friend's academy to teach a couple of classes and he introduced me as "Professor" each time. At least calling me "Professor Tony" rather than "Professor Dismukes" helped make it clear that I'm not an academic professor.



Our coach got the nickname professor from a ring announcer who just decided that because he was a school teacher it was just better than the one he already had.

He was a nothing belt in BJJ at the time.


----------



## jks9199 (Aug 25, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Overthinking what?  To say that in times past it would have been considered an insult worthy of starting a duel?  That's not called overthinking that's called reading a history book.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Maybe a rephrasing will help him understand...

If someone unknown to the members walked into a gym, and said "I've got something to teach you..."  There just might be some folks in that gym that could take exception, no?  And perhaps suggest that, if he really does have something to teach, maybe he should prove it first in the ring...

Nah, that could never happen...


----------



## JR 137 (Aug 25, 2017)

Thank you, @Hyoho


----------



## drop bear (Aug 27, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> Maybe a rephrasing will help him understand...
> 
> If someone unknown to the members walked into a gym, and said "I've got something to teach you..."  There just might be some folks in that gym that could take exception, no?  And perhaps suggest that, if he really does have something to teach, maybe he should prove it first in the ring...
> 
> Nah, that could never happen...



Nope still sounds over thought. 

And it happens. Like who the guy you have just submitted 8 times starts coaching you. Or the reality guy who tells you how to throw strikes during a roll. It is hardly the end of the world.

A bit funny maybe.


----------



## Buka (Aug 27, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> If someone unknown to the members walked into a gym, and said "I've got something to teach you..."



That's pure entertainment, right there. It's a win/win no matter what.


----------



## lklawson (Aug 28, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You were not insulted in a historical context. Maybe you were insulted due to a historical context?
> Someone called themselves Sabum and they are not your Sabum or something.
> 
> I don't get the issue.


So you're going to stick with "be a dick."

Thanks for clarifying that.


----------



## lklawson (Aug 28, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> Maybe a rephrasing will help him understand...


That would work if he was interested in understanding or in a conversation.  As it stands, it's clear that he is merely interested in being an _agent provocateur_. As such, I'm disinterested in playing that game.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## drop bear (Aug 28, 2017)

lklawson said:


> So you're going to stick with "be a dick."
> 
> Thanks for clarifying that.


 You are overthinking this as well.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 28, 2017)

lklawson said:


> That would work if he was interested in understanding or in a conversation.  As it stands, it's clear that he is merely interested in being an _agent provocateur_. As such, I'm disinterested in playing that game.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Like old mate who provoked you by calling himself sabum or whatever. I thought I was being especially tactful.

If you want provoked try this.

Get over yourself and your sensitive feelings. You are being a dick.


----------



## MA_Student (Aug 28, 2017)

If I go into a club and the guy wants me to call him sir then I will if he doesn't then I won't.


----------

