# Say sump'n good!



## geezer (Jan 25, 2008)

Reading the thread about choosing schools "by lineages" got me thinking. I personally believe WC's diversity is a _good thing_. Anyway, I know this has been tried before and it usually fails. In WC we are too good at tearing each other down. But, with a little self control...maybe it's worth another try.  Can you say something good about your particular branch without saying how bad everyone else is? What is one thing that is a little different about your branch of WC/VT/WT that you really like?


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## geezer (Jan 26, 2008)

OK, nobody's biting, so I'll kick it off by saying something good..._about somebody else's_  Wing Tsun! Last summer I took an FMA seminar that happened to be in a space shared with a WT seminar taught by the infamous Emin Boztepe. Well, Sifu Emin --aka "the devil himself" according to some-- knowing that I belonged to another branch, still invited me to observe the WT portion of this seminar at no charge. The part I liked best about the training was a frank willingness to adjust and adapt some traditional techniques to make them more practical for application in the real world, with consideration for the kind of tecchniques a martial artist is likely to face today. I didn't see anything that contradicted the principles of Wing Chun/Tsun as I had learned them, but I did see a logical extention of those principles beyond what is usually taught. Sifu Emin also challenged his instructor level students to ruthlessly analyse their thechniques to see if they really did measure up to such principles as economy, efficiency and practicality. I know my own Si-fu did not really encourage such creative thinking...unless it was by him alone. 

Oh, one other thing...after the seminars ended, we all went out to a bar and Emin bought me a beer, ...I liked that too.


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## tenth1 (Jan 26, 2008)

shock horror, the devil bought you a beer!!! lol
i study the lo man kam wing chun, the first negative things i heard about other types of wing chun were on this forum but never having experienced any oter wing chun and not having been training for very long i would hesitate to comment on them, all i know is what i am learnig  with my sifu is the most effective art i have experienced and i have tried my hand at quite a few.


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## geezer (Jan 27, 2008)

You have tried many MA's, but you feel that what you are learning now is_ more effective_? How? Can you give an example of something that really works for you?


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## DungHo (Jan 27, 2008)

Wing Chun is effective and it open to interpretation.  I think each line have reason for what they doing is should be very proud of their Wing Chun.

I study under the line of Yip man - Lung Sheung - Kenneth Chung


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## tenth1 (Jan 28, 2008)

in terms of practical use on the street or in a real life encounter wing chun takes a no frills simple aproach , instead of flowery movements or un realistic high kicks wing chun is straight line attacks with minimal telegraphing of the strikes as well as the fact that it prepares you for close distance combat, something many other mas dont do, and this is a more realistic fighting range in my opinion.


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## BFL (Jan 28, 2008)

Greetings to one and all and have a great week ahead.
  I've had the good fortune to experience (either through lessons or seminars or just visiting a school in my travels) probably a dozen different families of Wing Chun, in the past 15 yrs.  Most experience's have been good, some a little dissapointing, some frustrating.  I think that W.C. people have a habit of believing the hype that they're lineage puts out there in order to build or keep a student base, they use the age old "Ours is the best" line and then eventually because someone has time invested they find it hard to believe their's might not be the best because then it devistates their ego.  I believe in leaving the ego checked at the door when I enter into any Kwoon, anywhere, this allows me to learn, and grow. I've met Sifu Francis Fong in the Atlanta area, and I thought he was a very nice and very cool guy with a really nice school and humble students (and mad skills). I've trained under Sifu Jacky Tsang of Moy Yat family, in Orlando.  He and his wife Phylis are some of the nicest people you'll find anywhere, with great students.  I've had the privelage of meeting one of Sifu ALan Goldberg's students/Sifu's and he's now a friend, no, a brother to me (Thank you Sifu Lin). I'm currently under Sifu Kyle Weygandt of Pan Nam and Lueng Shueng family and he is now and shall remain my Sifu and one of my best friends for life, he is the salt of the earth, and I would take a bullet for him, period.  My first Sifu the late William Mason devoted his life to Wing Chun and he was an excellent representative of the N.A.W.C.A. his skills rocked and I miss my friend. The others that left me dissapointed I shall not mention here, just suffice it to say that from what I've seen, Wing Chun is Wing Chun, the only difference from Kwoon to Kwoon is the attitude of the Sifu and students, and the quality of how their teaching whatever they're teaching.  In my opinion the sooner we learn to work together as brothers, yet still keep our individuality in our respective families, the more W.C. will grow, the more we'll all grow as martial artists and as individuals. Cheers to you Sifu Boztepe for buying that guy a beer.
BFL


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## profesormental (Jan 28, 2008)

Greetings.

Wing Chun in general is a very good teaching method. I've always liked Leung Ting's written materials and found some of his videos entertaining (funny how he overacts in them! Part of the flash!). Very expressive. I've also likes the uniformity in execution that his students have.

I really like Emin Botzepe's execution and aggressiveness.

I tend to like the aggreesive use of Wing Chun after a defensive survival of the initial assault. Some methods offer a more defensive posture which is also very effective. Actually, it is one of the safest ways to deal with the aggressive approach! 

My personal approach is the result of training in my Sifu's method (very aggressive, fight oriented. lots of sparring and San Da), and then being exposed to all the literature and materials I could get my hands on about Wing Chun.

Also from my studies in biomechanics and physics, I got many reasons why the movements are used. I also trained in another lineage for an extended period, which led to more insights. I also train in other styles... which have led me to more insight into the simple complexity of Wing Chun training.

One of my Sifus told me the following: "In Wing Chun, real improvement does not come with adding things to the system. Anyone can add something. If you can make it even simpler without compromising the result, then you have a real improvement."

So make things as simple as they can be, but not simpler.

Hope this helps.

Juan M. Mercado


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 28, 2008)

When I trained it I would have to say the sifu. He genuinely loves Wing Chun and he is genuinely very happy with his teacher (Ip Ching) and the branch he is on and yet I have never heard him say anything negative about any other Wing Chun branch, lineage or school.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jan 30, 2008)

Interesting thread....

I tend to call things as I see them but there are plenty of very good wing chun schools out there. In the UK there is Alan Orr, James Sinclair, Sam Kwok and Gary Mackenzie who are all very very good at what they do and how they teach

I train and teach in Kamon wing chun which is a friendly relaxed school taught under one of the nicest masters around - Sifu Kevin Chan

Why I like this school is that Kevin Chan has trained at very high level in BJJ, kickboxing and boxing (as well as other styles that he doesn't mention too much). This gives him to incorperate moves from other styles whilst keeping a good amount of traditional wing chun at its core

What gets me is when a martial art claims to be something it's not. 
There are some schools out there (not just in wing chun) that claim to be devastating street defence when it is most certainly not

If a student comes up to me and asks how our particular martial art would handle a certain attack, we would have an answer

A lot of schools that I have trained at either don't have an answer or won't give an answer

Also, do remember that the lineage of an art is not always too important 
I found a trianing partner who trained under three different masters. His lineage therefore is mixed and not defined as simply as A-B-C

Kevin Chan trained initially under Sam Kwok, but has since trained directly under Ip Chun and various other masters. So his lineage is not set, but he is still one of the best chunners I have seen


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## geezer (Jan 30, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Interesting thread....
> 
> I tend to call things as I see them but there are plenty of very good wing chun schools out there. In the UK there is Alan Orr, James Sinclair, Sam Kwok and Gary Mackenzie who are all very very good at what they do and how they teach
> 
> ...


 
So, to stress the positive, what you like about Kamon Wing Chun is it's street realism and adaptive approach. I assume the integration of kickboxing is to give more long range effectiveness, and BJJ to give more options at the grappling range. I'm totally with you on that.  How do you integrate the boxing?


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## KamonGuy2 (Jan 31, 2008)

geezer said:


> So, to stress the positive, what you like about Kamon Wing Chun is it's street realism and adaptive approach. I assume the integration of kickboxing is to give more long range effectiveness, and BJJ to give more options at the grappling range. I'm totally with you on that. How do you integrate the boxing?


Most wing chun is street realistic, especially those schools I mentioned in my earlier post
However, I find that the instructors of Kamon, including Kevin Chan won't BS their students. Everyone is free to ask questions or dispute a move and tehy will get a fair answer

It isn't just the long range aspects of kickboxing that help - there are times when a person is too manouverable to use static wing chun 
There are also good techniques in MT (knees, headbutts, etc) than can be used to good effect
BJJ clinch work incorperates well with chi sao and for fighting techniques

As for boxing, some of the hand techniques are the best around
If you clinch with someone and have a free shot at their ribs, yeah a palm strike is good but an uppercutt is better

Remember that we only incorperate a small amount of this into our techniques. I would say that 90% of what we do is pure wing chun. 
Why? Because many other techniques will not work on bigger guys. 
I grabbed a blue belt in BJJ and held him in place. He took a long long time to get out of it. Those precious moments can cost you in a street fight
Any art that you train on its own will falter
BJJ is a great art, but it could be even better if there were good strikes in it- the UFC proved that!
Kicboxing is a great art, but struggles at tight, clinched range
Therefore every art, including wing chun shouldn't be afraid to expand


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## DungHo (Jan 31, 2008)

I really agree with you there ?? where are you train ?? are you in US ??


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## geezer (Jan 31, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Therefore every art, including wing chun shouldn't be afraid to expand


Absolutely! Unfortunately, this is a dangerous heresy if you train under an all-knowing master. Or if you are a si-fu representing an all knowing master. That's why I'm really glad I'm not an official si-fu anymore. I love the techniques of my lineage, and my si-fu taught some fantastic stuff. But if something didn't work for me, _I was the dummy_. And when I found that I could make certain other "taboo" techniques work really well in special situations, such as the headbutts you mentioned, _I was the dummy again! _Now I train with some other rebellious types and love what I am learning. Say, can a fifty-something year old geezer safely learn some BJJ? I always liked taking it to the ground when I was younger. What do you think?


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## KamonGuy2 (Feb 6, 2008)

geezer said:


> Absolutely! Unfortunately, this is a dangerous heresy if you train under an all-knowing master. Or if you are a si-fu representing an all knowing master. That's why I'm really glad I'm not an official si-fu anymore. I love the techniques of my lineage, and my si-fu taught some fantastic stuff. But if something didn't work for me, _I was the dummy_. And when I found that I could make certain other "taboo" techniques work really well in special situations, such as the headbutts you mentioned, _I was the dummy again! _Now I train with some other rebellious types and love what I am learning. Say, can a fifty-something year old geezer safely learn some BJJ? I always liked taking it to the ground when I was younger. What do you think?


 
Sorry for the late reply
Geezer - definately 
Kevin Chan is in his 40s and just got his black belt in BJJ!
You just have to go a bit slower if you have any joint problems etc

I can understand a Sifu preventing people from performing unorthodox moves in a class - even in Kamon we do set drills which are safe in order to train muscles etc

However, a Sifu should not stop you from going to another class 
Kamon encourages it and Kevin Chan regularly holds seminars to encourage students to get into boxing and BJJ (there is a seminar coming up soon which will be taken by BJJ legend Mauricio Gomes) 

Any sifu that tells you that you should never train any other art than the one you are doing is misguided and deserves a slap.

Dungho - I'm in the UK dude. But when I get some free time I'm going to try to get over to the US


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