# How many people learned MA through Seminars (no school ) only?



## mcjon77 (Jul 29, 2004)

Hey all,

I was wondering how many of the MA practitioners on this board recieved MA training through Seminars and Camps, and didn't attend a school that taught it.   If you learned this way, how many camps did you find yourself attending a year?  Also, how did you practice what you learned in between camps?  Would you advise this method to others as a viable way of learning modern arnis?  If so, what recomendations would you give to those that are following this path?

Thanks,

Jon


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## Rob Broad (Jul 29, 2004)

I don't see how anybody could effectively learn this way.  You need an instructor for feedback.


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## mcjon77 (Jul 29, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> I don't see how anybody could effectively learn this way.  Yiy need an instructor for feedback.



I know that at least SOME of the Modern Arnis Players had to learn this way, as Prof. Presas never had a formal school in the US.  What I would like to find out is how they adapted to that training method, and what they would do differently now.


Jon


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## Rob Broad (Jul 29, 2004)

I am quite sure these guys had someone to continually prcatice on after the seminars, and were probably part of an established school somewhere.


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 29, 2004)

I did the seminar only thing for about a year,but I wouldnt recomended it to anyone who isn't a seasoned MA.I do better when I get to train regularly.


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 29, 2004)

mcjon77 said:
			
		

> I know that at least SOME of the Modern Arnis Players had to learn this way, as Prof. Presas never had a formal school in the US.  What I would like to find out is how they adapted to that training method, and what they would do differently now.
> 
> 
> Jon


Hi Jon,

I ran (and still do) a martial arts school so I taught my students and then trained with them.  My ex-wife and I trained together as well.  When Prof. Presas came to town I would get either a private or semi-private lesson as well as hogging his attention or staying close to watch how he did things.  Often after the seminar or camp, he'd stay on for anywhere from a day to a week and we'd spend time together training.  Teach, train, teach, train.  I was lucky in that I already had 14 or so years in American karate so I was able to adapt quickly.  Fred King once mentioned to me, "You learn by osmosis."  

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 29, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Hi Jon,
> 
> I ran (and still do) a martial arts school so I taught my students and then trained with them.  My ex-wife and I trained together as well.  When Prof. Presas came to town I would get either a private or semi-private lesson as well as hogging his attention or staying close to watch how he did things.  Often after the seminar or camp, he'd stay on for anywhere from a day to a week and we'd spend time together training.  Teach, train, teach, train.  I was lucky in that I already had 14 or so years in American karate so I was able to adapt quickly.  Fred King once mentioned to me, "You learn by osmosis."
> 
> ...



I agree, that GM Remy would stay and give people more when they asked or he had the time. These were good times.

I also trained in a club and had other students there as well to practice wih and seniors and instructors to learn from.


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## DoxN4cer (Jul 30, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I agree, that GM Remy would stay and give people more when they asked or he had the time. These were good times.



Yes, they were very good times.

Tim Kashino


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## Flatlander (Jul 30, 2004)

Has anyone besides the late Professor done a significant amount of seminar instruction?  I'm out of the loop up here above the top of your maps.  When I say significant, read weekly/much travelling coast to coast.


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## ARNIS PRINCESS (Jul 30, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Has anyone besides the late Professor done a significant amount of seminar instruction?  I'm out of the loop up here above the top of your maps.  When I say significant, read weekly/much travelling coast to coast.




Actually, the most visible person in North America on the Modern Arnis seminar circuit since GM Presas passing has been Datu Hartman. He has been teaching 25  33 seminars a year for the last few years. Not only does he teach in US and Canada, but he also travels to Europe a couple times a year.

:cheers:  artyon:


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## Guro Harold (Jul 30, 2004)

ARNIS PRINCESS said:
			
		

> Actually, the most visible person in North America on the Modern Arnis seminar circuit since GM Presas passing has been Datu Hartman. He has been teaching 25  33 seminars a year for the last few years. Not only does he teach in US and Canada, but he also travels to Europe a couple times a year.
> 
> :cheers:  artyon:



Yeah, Datu Tim has literally been H. on wheels!!!


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## Guro Harold (Jul 30, 2004)

Hoch Hochheim has been burning for sure!!!

His SFC newsletter itself has a circulation in the thousands!!!


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## ARNIS PRINCESS (Jul 30, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Has anyone besides the late Professor done a significant amount of seminar instruction?  I'm out of the loop up here above the top of your maps.  When I say significant, read weekly/much travelling coast to coast.




Maybe the thread can be split to address this topic without taking away from the main idea of this thread?


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## Mark Lynn (Jul 30, 2004)

Jon

I did/do.  I started with Hock Hochheim in 94 going to 4-6 hour seminar type classes one weekend a month in his Presas Arnis system (it was based on both GM Remy's and GM Ernesto's systems).  That lasted for a couple of years (till he stopped them) and in 95 I started attending GM Remy's camps in TX.  In 96 I also started training with GM Ernesto in his system at his TX camps (sponsored by Hock) and then later on in 99, and 2000/01 his weekend seminars in Tulsa OK.

I actually have about double the amount of time in GM Remy's camps (I think 12 MA camps) than I do with GM Ernesto (5-6).  Plus training in Hock's camps, and other FMA type seminars (GM Toboada, Guro Inosanto, Tuhon Gaje, Guro T.Lucay, Garimot escrima etc. etc.).

I kept up with the material in several ways.
1) I kept extensive notes on each and every seminar I went to, plus notes on any class I took etc. etc.  This way I was able to go over the material at work and/or at home and compare drills, concepts, techniques etc. etc. between the systems.  It also helped me to organize what was taught and by whom, and the progressions or the format in which they taught.  So I could keep everything pretty much seperate.

2) At the seminars after everyone had gone home, my seminar workout friend and I would video tape everything we covered that day.  That way later on I could use the tape to compare my notes with.  This has lead to some interesting videos as I've now had my son lately (he's 12) to try and show techniques on   .

3) I taught arnis every chance I got to my karate buddies, my private students at my house, or at an occansional seminar for someone.  I knew that every opportunity I had to teach was a way to reinforce the techniques into my mind so I'd travel an hour each way to meet with some people to teach a small 2 hour class.  When I taught American TKd for a YMCA I taught that to the kids and if I taught adults it was arnis/FMA.

4) I practiced on my own.  Getting ready for Hock's BB test I use to run over drills in my shop at work, doing double stick drills and running through the patterns in the air or picking out targets on my reverser to strike at.

Is this the best way to learn the material?  Not really but it was what I had at the time.  Would I recommend this course to everyone yes and no.  I am a big believer in putting in the time to write down what was taught and by whom, video tape etc. etc. That I would recommend.  However I believe a person needs to have an instructor to guide them, it certainly would have been easier.

I had been exposed to the FMA 12 yers prior to meeting Hock, and I trained in a JKD Kali class once a week for almost two years prior to training with Hock.  So I wasn't a complete novice when I started in Presas Arnis (Modern Arnis or Kombaton) with Hock, so I was able to absorb the material and work on it after the seminars.  But for a novice the seminars/camps aren't the best way to learn you need an instructor. 

Respectfully submitted
Mark Lynn


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## Mark Lynn (Jul 30, 2004)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Hoch Hochheim has been burning for sure!!!
> 
> His SFC newsletter itself has a circulation in the thousands!!!



Harold

I agree with you in that Hock is teaching all over the world now his systems, however I respectfully submit that he isn't really teaching Modern Arnis.  While his systems (Filipino Combatives/Presas Arnis/Archilpeligo (PAC) Combatives courses where influenced by Modern Arnis and Kombaton Arnis, they are pretty different now compared to when I started with him.  They are much more his material than GM Remy's or GM Ernesto's.

His SFC newslatter is pretty good!
Mark


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## Guro Harold (Jul 30, 2004)

ARNIS PRINCESS said:
			
		

> Maybe the thread can be split to address this topic without taking away from the main idea of this thread?


Well,

The "Who has been teaching seminars" question still relates as long as it doesn't veer too much.

Harold


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## ARNIS PRINCESS (Jul 30, 2004)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Well,
> 
> The "Who has been teaching seminars" question still relates as long as it doesn't veer too much.
> 
> Harold




Just a thought. :asian:


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## ARNIS PRINCESS (Jul 30, 2004)

BTW,

 I was taught Modern Arnis in a *full time* Modern Arnis school by Datu Hartman.


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## Cebu West (Jul 31, 2004)

I trained at a school 2 to 3 nights a week for about 4 years before getting my Lakan. During this time I had good access to the Professor and Datu Hartman. After seminars we would add the new stuff Professor presented into our training. I think it would be difficult to become proficient with Modern Arnis techniques, especially timing, if your only trained at seminars.

If the only way for some people to get Modern Arnis was at seminars, so be it, and you have to give credit to those who followed the Professor in this way. You take what you can get.

For those of us who had the Professor available outside the seminar circuit, we were the lucky ones.

SAL


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## MJS (Jul 31, 2004)

mcjon77 said:
			
		

> Hey all,
> 
> I was wondering how many of the MA practitioners on this board recieved MA training through Seminars and Camps, and didn't attend a school that taught it.   If you learned this way, how many camps did you find yourself attending a year?  Also, how did you practice what you learned in between camps?  Would you advise this method to others as a viable way of learning modern arnis?  If so, what recomendations would you give to those that are following this path?
> 
> ...



Seminars and camps are great!!  Its a great way to meet new people, work with different people as well as see some of the top guys in the system.  However, it  may be hard to just attend a camp/seminar and be able to effectively remember as well as train the material that you're learning.  Finding a good school that can teach you about the art, is the best way to go IMO.

Mike


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## mcjon77 (Jul 31, 2004)

Thanks for the info guys,

The reason why I ask is that my current Arnis instructor is going to stop teaching his class, so I've had to make some decisions about the future of my martial arts and Modern Arnis Training. The irony is that I just (re)joined the school about a month and a half ago, after being out of the area for a year.  The classes used to be 2-3 days a week.  Now, from what I have heard, the senior student (Lakan) is going to continue it, but only once a week.

Basiclly I've been spending the past few weeks checking out other martial arts schools in the area and deciding how modern arnis is going to fit in now.  Another bit of irony is that a week before i found all of this out, a friend of mine told me to check out this judo school and I was very impressed.  I wanted to train there, but I didn't see how I could fit both Judo and Modern Arnis into my schedule, considering that i work and go to school part time.  I guess now I have my answer.

After checking out a number of the schools in my area, I have decided to sign up for the judo school's program.  Now the only question is how (and if) modern arnis fits into the equation..

I figure I have about 3 choices with Modern Arnis:
1) stop Modern Arnis training completely (maybe take it up some years later)
2) keep training through camps alone.
3) take the 1 day a week class in addition to camps.

The one good thing is that I was teaching my younger cousin some of the modern arnis that I learned so I would have a training partner.  I like working with him because he is about my size (which is very large, for those who have never met me  ).  I don't particularly want to stop training with him, because we both enjoy it..

More than likely I will still sign up for the judo class and take option 3 in my above list.

Thanks,

Jon


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## Guro Harold (Jul 31, 2004)

mcjon77 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info guys,
> 
> The reason why I ask is that my current Arnis instructor is going to stop teaching his class, so I've had to make some decisions about the future of my martial arts and Modern Arnis Training. The irony is that I just (re)joined the school about a month and a half ago, after being out of the area for a year.  The classes used to be 2-3 days a week.  Now, from what I have heard, the senior student (Lakan) is going to continue it, but only once a week.
> 
> ...




Is it possible for you to train with some one else in the area?


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## Cruentus (Aug 1, 2004)

I just wanted to step in and say that from what I saw of Mark Lynn at the symposium, he had the seminar training thing down to a science. A very extensive note taker, which is part of the game for seminar training. I don't think I ever said so, but Mark has impressed me with his ability to reference notes from early events going back as far as 94'....a fine example of 'how to' train effectively through seminars.   

I will say that that there are many roads to a destination, and for some, travelling to train with the best beats paying due's at a mediocre dojo back at home. Some people can learn from seminars very effectively.

btw...before the accusations come a-flyin'...I had an instructors at home, still do, and I trained seminars, and still do.


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## arnisandyz (Aug 1, 2004)

mcjon77 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info guys,
> The one good thing is that I was teaching my younger cousin some of the modern arnis that I learned so I would have a training partner.
> Jon



This is probably one of the best ways to approach seminar training. Go to the seminars with your partner (or small group). At the seminar you will work together to get the technique, drill, concept down so when you go home and train, anything you may have forgotten, your parner may have remembered it. Take it in small doses, you won't remember everything at the seminar, but try to pickup and retain your favorites.  You'll have smoke coming out of your ears and will probably forget it ALL if you try to remember everything. Sometimes the person giving the seminar will have video tapes that suppliment the material covered in the seminar, some people will allow you to tape it yourself.  As long as your having fun and don't care about climbing the ranks who cares?

As for me, I studied other Arnis before getting my initial training through Modern Arnis seminars, so I concentrated on left on right Tapi Tapi,  I wanted to retain something unique of Modern Arnis. Through the seminars I met Bruce Chui, Johny Quest, and Ray Dionaldo all within 2 hours of me. Through Ray I met Roland Rivera, and our own Palisut (Harold). I later met Datu Shishir and he filled in some of the blanks I was missing, but by that time, I was pretty much doing my own thing, a piece i learned hear, a piece  i learned there.

I always say the FMA student has big responsibility to LEARN and make the art thier own. seek out guides when you need them, but don't rely on them completely, for many will make you carbon copies of themselves if given the opportunity.


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## mcjon77 (Aug 1, 2004)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Is it possible for you to train with some one else in the area?



Ken Smith's school in Orland Park is in the general area, although it is pretty far South.  Also, one of the other senior students opened up a school recently, athough it is pretty far North.

One of the things that resulting from my instructor stopping his teaching is that I have really had to re-evaluate why I study martial arts and what I train for.  Since my contract was cancelled due to the program being cancelled, I was in the position to ask myself "based on what I know about other arts, and what my needs are, what should I be training in and who should I be training with?."

The answer I came back with was that I need to spend more time grappling with a resisting partner.  Based on my body type, and personal preferences, I feel that this is the best choice.  Also, the opportunity to train with someone as skilled in judo as my prospective instructor doesn't come often (he's been doing judo for 40+ years and very well respected).  Combine that with the fact that this judo club was one of the few places I've seen with guys close to my size to grapple with, and the decision was pretty easy.

However, I really don't want to completely stop doing Modern Arnis.  Beyond all of the weapons stuff,  Modern arnis has the best close range empty hand techniques I've ever seen.  I was shocked at how much better with my hands a little modern arnis made me.  The hand techniques are the only ones I've seen that (I'm sure there are others) that show how to transition fluidly from striking range to grappling range.  I remember back when I was studying hapkido, I learned a bunch of great joint locks, but I kept asking my instructor "But how do i get his hand/wrist if he is punching me", Modern Arnis gave a pretty good answer to that.  Plus, I just love the beauty of the system.  It is a joy to watch and practice.

Jon


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Aug 1, 2004)

Jon,

you should try this guy if your in the area. :asian: 

Timothy Murray
Warrior Systems
ON117 Stanley
Winfield, IL 60190
630-260-0353
hnd2hnd@juno.com


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## mcjon77 (Aug 1, 2004)

Thanks Datu,



			
				Datu Puti said:
			
		

> Jon,
> 
> you should try this guy if your in the area. :asian:
> 
> ...


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## Guro Harold (Aug 1, 2004)

mcjon77 said:
			
		

> Ken Smith's school in Orland Park is in the general area, although it is pretty far South.  Also, one of the other senior students opened up a school recently, athough it is pretty far North.
> 
> One of the things that resulting from my instructor stopping his teaching is that I have really had to re-evaluate why I study martial arts and what I train for.  Since my contract was cancelled due to the program being cancelled, I was in the position to ask myself "based on what I know about other arts, and what my needs are, what should I be training in and who should I be training with?."
> 
> ...


I definitely understand about studying what you enjoy.  I would suggest networking checking out the contacts that you already mentioned and Datu Tim's contact as well in the meantime.

Best of luck to you,

Harold


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## Cruentus (Aug 1, 2004)

mcjon77 said:
			
		

> Thanks Datu,



I second that recommendation. Murray is a great instructor...

 :ultracool


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 2, 2004)

Paul

Thanks for the kind words and I hope we can get together at another seminar sometime, maybe get to workout some together.   :asian: 

Mark


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 2, 2004)

mcjon77

Jon 

You mentioned your interest in judo and grappling, in time you might take a good look at what you have learned in Modern Arnis or the FMA and apply/blend your judo/grappling skills with it.  Eskrido is a system created by one of the Canete brothers (Doce Pares Escrima) combining judo with his system of escrima.  I only saw it once on a tape but it looked awesome to me.  The off balancing moves and the throws using the stick.  It might be something later on to check out if you really get into the judo.

good luck with the new class, it sounds great to find a school with good instruction (40+ years in an system that's really pretty rare these days). 

Mark


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## Arnis_DeMano (Aug 3, 2004)

I train Modern Arnis from private lessons i take under the summer. I must say that the hardest thing about just taking privates are that i always haft to train alone!But don´t get me wrong i love taking private lessons.I would be pleased if there were a classes i could go to one or two times a week...
It is the repetions there are important not the knowledge about the technique. (of course the knowledge about the technique is important to.)


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 3, 2004)

Arnis_DeMano said:
			
		

> I train Modern Arnis from private lessons i take under the summer. I must say that the hardest thing about just taking privates are that i always haft to train alone!But don´t get me wrong i love taking private lessons.I would be pleased if there were a classes i could go to one or two times a week...
> It is the repetions there are important not the knowledge about the technique. (of course the knowledge about the technique is important to.)



Hi Arnis DeMano

I give private lessons in arnis and I must say the hardest thing about teaching privates is allowing the student to continue to twist and bend my joints in un natural positions many times over so they learn the lock or control technique right.     

Take care
Mark


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Aug 3, 2004)

Arnis_DeMano said:
			
		

> I train Modern Arnis from private lessons i take under the summer. I must say that the hardest thing about just taking privates are that i always haft to train alone!But don´t get me wrong i love taking private lessons.I would be pleased if there were a classes i could go to one or two times a week...
> It is the repetions there are important not the knowledge about the technique. (of course the knowledge about the technique is important to.)




Welcome abort Kris. Tell everyone I said hello and I'll be seeing you in November.

 :asian:


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