# Traditional Chinese Training In Denver Area?



## ebozzz

Greetings,


 I am on the hunt for a quality school for myself and my two children (ages 9 & 16). We live in the Aurora and ideally, my preferences would be to find a location that is near home. Thus far, I have only found one school in Aurora. It is listed below....


http://www.taikungha.com/index.html


 There are also several schools around the metro area that intrigue me. Here are the links for those....


http://www.denverchikung.com/


http://www.shaolinhungmei.org/


http://www.hosmartialarts.com/


http://www.wahlumdenver.com/


http://www.gaostylebaguausa.com/index.html


http://www.boulderkungfu.com/


 All of the schools above were found  simply by searching the internet. I have not had the opportunity to visit either of them. I would appreciate any feedback that can be shared regarding any that are on the list or any that you wish to add as possible options. I am not asking for a bash fest. Any experiences, positive or negative, share them with me. If you feel that it is necessary to blast any organization, please send me a private message including the details. Thank you *very* much! I anxious await your replies...


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## Flying Crane

I don't know anything about any of these specifically.  However, I also don't see any obvious red flags popping up, just from perusing the websites.

I'd say go visit each school, even a couple of times.  Speak with the instructors, watch a couple of classes if possible, and see which one most appeals to you and which one feels the most right to you.  This means both the type of training and the atmosphere of the school.  It needs to be a place in which your feel comfortable, as well as offering quality training.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

My thoughts on the schools:
http://www.taikungha.com/class.html 

I do not know much about Taoist temples in Vietnam also Taoism like any religion has sects so we really can not say Taoist temple we have to say something like Kun Lun sect of Taoism.
He claims to teach Dao yin. Dao Yin from my understanding is something of a obsecurity and those claiming to teach Dao yin should be met with caution. Taoist Qigong and Taoist Taiji sword again odd. Saying Wudang sword form or Wudang Qigong would be a better term because Taoist is a very generic term. Form wise kinda of flashy but I have seen worse.
Next school:
http://www.denverchikung.com/discipline.html

I don't like his Santi Shi position in the pictures. Santi is Xingyi posture it looks rigid to me no root. Has a good linerage so thats a good thing.He practices I think Gao style Bagua so I don't see anything wrong with this school looks fine to me. However his style is a combo of styles so I don't know how traditional you are looking.

Next school:
http://www.shaolinhungmei.org/kf1.html
Nothing jumps at me as odd. I would like to have read the teacher's bio but I don't see it. This style is also known as Bak Mei.

Next school:
http://www.hosmartialarts.com/?q=node/2
Cool they teach Sun and Wu some what rare Taiji compared to Yang and Chen.  I do not see anything odd here. Seems like a decent school

Next school:
http://www.wahlumdenver.com/history.php
A good represented school part of the Wahlum known pretty well in America.

Next school:
http://www.gaostylebaguausa.com/lineage.html
Well it is Gao style Bagua. I have no idea the Xingyi,Taiji and what ever else. But the Gao style should be fine.

Next school:
http://www.boulderkungfu.com/lineage.html
Looks fine to me I don't see anything odd.
Teaches Praying mantis,Wu Taiji,Qigong nothing odd that I see.

Its sometimes hard to tell if someone is good or not without talking to them. The websites except the first one seem like normal Kung fu schools.
You would have to narrow the schools down more and maybe I could give a deeper look.


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## Xue Sheng

As already said

It is hard to judge via website. Looking at the one where he is in various Xingyiquan postures if I compare that to what I was taught water and fire are wrong but not knowing his lineage or even his style makes it hard to judge via picture on a website

a note on daoyin. It is thrown around by many today as something old or mystical or special. All Daoyin is qigong; Daoyin is just an old name for what we no call qigong. Some of the Chan family refers to their qigong as daoyin. The name was changed I believe in the 60s or possibly the 50s.


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## ebozzz

Flying Crane, Jade Cloud and Xue Sheng, I would like to thank each of you *very* much for taking the time to reply to my original post. The sites that I provided are just a start to my search. There is no way that I could make a decision simply based on the information that was provided on them. It was more of an effort to hopefully get anyone who looked at the thread to maybe have better insight as to what I am seeking. I was also hoping that someone could possibly provide me with other locations that I might not be aware of. 

The first school, Tai Kung Ha, is the most convenient from a commuting standpoint. I am almost certain that I could make it there in less than 30 minutes. All of the others are over 30 minutes away with the locations that are in Boulder (Hung Mei, Gao & Boulder Kung Fu) taking an hour or more to reach depending on traffic/weather conditions. Quality of instruction will be the determining factor. I will not choose to go to Tai Kung Ha simply because it is the closest. I want the best option for long term training.  

My next step will be to call each location, introduce myself and inquire when it would be acceptable to possibly pay a visit. Jaded Cloud, thank you for bringing up the your concerns regarding the first option. I will ask about which sect of Taoism they practice. I will also try to get more specific information regarding the other generalities that you pointed out. Best wishes to each of you and thanks again....


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## clfsean

My thoughts... 

... Boulder Kung Fu/Gao Bagua top choices... 
... Wah Lum
... Ho's 
... anything else is a crap shoot for various reasons


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## JadecloudAlchemist

There is no doubt that a Chinese influence exist on the Vietnamese they share similar deties and origin myths. We do know there exist Vietnam Kungfu how wide it is taught I have no idea.
This is a little hard to swallow:



> Sifu Ha began his training at the age of seven in a Chinese Taoist temple in South Vietnam. There Master Hoang Ca Cuong, a (Fukien branch) Shaolin monk and master of Hung Gar Kung Fu, recognized his potential and accepted him as his disciple. Thus, as is rarely allowed, Sifu Ha was trained in the traditional Chinese Family Arts disciplines of Hung Gar Kung Fu, including traditional weapons forms. He also studied under Master Lam Duong Hoa


 
I really think the Taoist Taiji sword form is Wudang. Its Taoist,Taiji and the age of 300years would place it Ming-Qing dynasty. It also looks like Jian he is using. When speaking on Qigong you can find out how good someone is on how well they understand Qigong theory. I have wrote alot on this site about it. If he is good at Taiji he will know rooting,be relaxed,and sunk. The Dao yin as Xue has said is a term not really being used anymore. 
Hmm he learned Yang Taiji from Li Wei Ming. Ming was a Wu(Hao)stylist so how come he did not learn Wu style too? http://www.wuhaotaichi.in.th/history/liweiming/liweiming_eng.html

I can't find anything on the other teachers. I am going to bed see you later.


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## ebozzz

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> There is no doubt that a Chinese influence exist on the Vietnamese they share similar deties and origin myths. We do know there exist Vietnam Kungfu how wide it is taught I have no idea.
> This is a little hard to swallow:
> 
> 
> 
> I really think the Taoist Taiji sword form is Wudang. Its Taoist,Taiji and the age of 300years would place it Ming-Qing dynasty. It also looks like Jian he is using. When speaking on Qigong you can find out how good someone is on how well they understand Qigong theory. I have wrote alot on this site about it. If he is good at Taiji he will know rooting,be relaxed,and sunk. The Dao yin as Xue has said is a term not really being used anymore.
> Hmm he learned Yang Taiji from Li Wei Ming. Ming was a Wu(Hao)stylist so how come he did not learn Wu style too? http://www.wuhaotaichi.in.th/history/liweiming/liweiming_eng.html
> 
> I can't find anything on the other teachers. I am going to bed see you later.


 
Jade, Once again, thank you so much!


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## ebozzz

clfsean said:


> My thoughts...
> 
> ... Boulder Kung Fu/Gao Bagua top choices...
> ... Wah Lum
> ... Ho's
> ... anything else is a crap shoot for various reasons


 
Care to elaborate on why you feel the way you do? Thanks!


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Speaking of the Gao school.
http://www.gaostylebaguausa.com/history.html#luo

It talks about where the Xingyi and Taiji comes from A good school IMO.

Wah Lum is a well known school they have a temple in Orlando,Fl.
 I have met Shelly Huang who is Wah Lum in Miami she is a nice person.

Ho's school offers Sun style Taiji which is a combonation of Bagua,Xingyi,Taiji from the famous Sun Lutang. Sun Lutang learned Wu(Hao) style. 
Interest note he learned from Carrie Wong who's Husband is Douglas Wong who wrote this book: 
http://www.amazon.com/Shaolin-Fig
Anyway the Ho school has an impressive resume and they practice Acupuncture so you might learn some of that.


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## clfsean

ebozzz said:


> Care to elaborate on why you feel the way you do? Thanks!



Feelings & experience is all... 

For instance, 

...the Boulderkungfu guy (7 Star Mantis) won't be teaching under his teacher's flag unless he can use it & teach you to use it. Plain & simple.

...The Gao Bagua guy... I know some Gao people here in Atl... good stuff & again won't teach without being able to use it & teach you to use it.

...Wah Lum has mandatory sifu recertification every 3 years to maintain quality control for people flying the Wah Lum Flag. 

... Hung Mei ... gave me a funny vibe. Hung Mei is a Southern art but everything was in Mandarin. No Southern art that I know (I know lots) would swap Cantonese for Mandarin. I've seen Hung Mei in NYC... what they had listed on the website didn't jive with what I saw in NYC.

... Viet art... not familiar enough with Viet arts, but what I have seen has left me wondering what they got & what they didn't...

... Xingyi guy ... odd vibe.


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## ebozzz

Thanks for all of the additional insight. Out of the sites that I listed, the Sin Lung Kwoon was actually the school that had the most of my attention. It's location , central Denver, would make access to lessons pretty convenient but again, I am not just looking for the best location. I definitely want high quality instruction. If I can find that in a facility that is easier for me to attend, I think that it increases my chances of being able to participate on a regular basis. I'm a beginner so I will need *plenty* of participation, right? 

Since I initially posted this thread, I have also obtained a little more information on Sifu Mike Bingo of Sin Lung. Here's his brief biography which I am sure that you have probably already read.....



> Sifu Mike Bingo is a native New Yorker of Italian ethnicity. He grew up in the Italian neighborhood and as a result, became a good street fighter at a very early age. Mike was always very athletic. As an adolescent, he trained as a boxer at the Main Street gym. He also wrestled, played football and baseball. He is a carpenter by trade.
> 
> Mike Bingo is a United States Army Special Forces Combat Veteran who operated in Europe and Asia for over fifteen years. During the years from 1969-1972, he lived in Taiwan, ROC and studied extensively under his teacher, Hsu Hong Chi, of Tang Shou Tao famous lineage, becoming his senior student. &#8230;.licensed teacher and most respected lineage holder. He retired from the Special Forces at the rank of Sergeant Major.
> 
> SGM Mike Bingo is an expert in close-quarter, hand-to-hand combat. He has trained extensively in Ju-Jit-Su/ Judo, Okinawa Karate and Tang Shou Tao Kung-Fu.


Here is what is listed as the school's lineage.....



> The &#8220;Sin Lung Kwoon&#8221; (Celestial Dragon School) is the fourth generation from Taiwan. The school&#8217;s chairman is Sifu Mike Bingo, the school is dedicated to Sifu Bingo&#8217;s teacher Master-Teacher Hsu Hong Chi of Taipei Taiwan whose Taipei Sin Lung Kwoon is third generation Hsing-I. Master Hsu Hong Chi&#8217;s teacher is Master Huang-I-Hsiang, founder of the Tang Shou Tao and the Wu Tao Kwoon second generation Hsing-I. The first generation Hsing-I master is Chang Chun Feng, Huang-I-Hsiang&#8217;s teacher. His school is I-Tsung Kuo-Shu Kwoon. Master Chang Chun Feng came from mainland China, San Dong province after the great Chinese Civil War in 1948. He studied Hsing-I under Li Tsun-I and Pa-Kua under Kao-I-Sheng in the early decades of the 20th century.


There are at least two associations in North America that appear to be related to the system that is taught at Sin Lung (Tang Shou Tao). They are listed below....

American Tang Shou Tao Association

Sifu Bingo's school is not listed in the Kwoon Directory but his name does appear in the lineage of the system. See below....



		Code:
	

Xing Yi Quan Lineage                                                                                                  This is a list of our Xing Yi Lineage. It is not comprehensive to all Xing Yi but it traces our line back to General Yue Fei and includes a few notable "Uncles" in the list.  Bolded names indicate people in our lineage, while names in parenthesis list alternate names by which they were known .
 
   
 [center][B]General Yue Fei[/B] &#23731;&#39131;: [I]Creator of Hsing-I[/I]

[B]Ji  Ji Ke[/B] &#23020;&#38555;&#21487; (Ji Long Feng &#23020;&#38534;&#20016;)
[B]Cao Ji Wu[/B] &#26361;&#32380;&#27494;, Ma Xue Li &#39340;&#23416;&#31150;  

[B]Dai Long Bang[/B] &#25140;&#40845;&#37030;, Dai Lin Bang 
[B]
Li Luo Neng[/B] &#26446;&#27931;&#33021; (Li Neng Ran) 

Che Yi Zhai &#36554;&#27589;&#40779;(Che Yong Hong), Song Shi Rong &#23435;&#19990;&#27054;, 
[B]Liu Qi Lan[/B] &#21016;&#22855;&#20848;, Guo Yun Shen &#37101;&#38642;&#28145; 

[B]Li Cun Yi[/B] &#26446;&#23384;&#32681;, Keng  Cheng Xing, Zhang Zao Dong &#24373;&#20806;&#26481; 
Chen Pan Ling (Chen Jun Feng), Huang Po Nien,  Shang Yun Chang, [B]Zhang Jun Feng [/B]&#24373;&#20426;&#23792;

Hong Yi Wen &#27946;&#25087;&#25991;, Hong Yi Mian &#27946;&#25087;&#26825;,  [B]Hong Yi Xiang [/B]&#27946;&#25087;&#31077;: [I]Founder of the Tang Shou Tao[/I]

[B]Xu Hong Ji [/B]&#35377;&#40251;&#22522;[B]:[/B][I] Founder of  the International Tang Shou Tao Association[/I], Black Snake, Li Laoshi 

John  Price, Mike Patterson, [B]Dale Akio Shigenaga[/B]:[I] Founder of the  American Tang Shou Tao Association[/I], [U][COLOR=Red]Mike Bingo[/COLOR][/U], James McNeil, Vince Black  
  
Students of Dale Shigenaga:[I] 1st Generation ATSTA Students[/I]
  
Anthony Franklin
Mark Kimzey
Lani Lum
Tim Bonson
Dan  Albritton
Charles Benza
Rick Deisler
Richard Iser
Ron Torrez
Kim  Albritton
John Simpson
Debbie Bryan
  
2nd Generation ATSTA Students
Rick Coila
Jason Crahen
Mike Boen
Danny Motta
Nate Cross
Tim Heckman
Jason Morris
Read Wall
[/center]
  [FONT=Garamond][pronunciation guide for chinese names: Q = ch; C = ts; e = uh; Y = silent at beginning of word; [/FONT][FONT=Garamond]O = uh in middle of word; X =sy; Zh = dj; U = oo][/FONT]

The name Vince Black also appears  in the lineage near Sifu Bingo's. Vince Black is the founder of  North American Tang Shou Tao if I am not mistaken.

North American Tang Shou Tao Association (NATSTA) 

I did not find any realtionship between NATSTA and Sifu Bingo. There does appear to be some lineage similarities between the Xing Yi taught by NATSTA and the Sin Lung Kwoon. Both of the associations seem to come from the same roots. Was there split at some point? Did politics get in the way? 

I received a reccomendation from Dale Dugas of Boston Baguazhang. He holds the title of Xiang Dao at that school. Here are his responses to my inquiry.....



> Shifu Mike Bingo would be the best choice.
> 
> He teaches at the Sin Lung Kwoon


When I asked him to elaborate he replied with the following....



> Its the best training you can get in that area that is real and will give back benefits later in life.
> 
> enjoy


The Sin Lung Kwoon also teaches Shuai Jiao based on a conversation that I had with one of their representatives over the phone. I don't get a bad vibe from this place thus far but I freely admit that I am most likely far less experienced than either of you that have replied here. I could very easily overlook something so I truly welcome any insight that is shared. No decison has been made as of yet. The search continues.....


----------



## ebozzz

Thanks for all of the additional insight. Out of the sites that I listed, the Sin Lung Kwoon was actually the school that had the most of my attention. It's location , central Denver, would make access to lessons pretty convenient but again, I am not just looking for the best location. I definitely want high quality instruction. If I can find that in a facility that is easier for me to attend, I think that it increases my chances of being able to participate on a regular basis. I'm a beginner so I will need *plenty* of participation, right? 

Since I initially posted this thread, I have also obtained a little more information on Sifu Mike Bingo of Sin Lung. Here's his brief biography which I am sure that you have probably already read.....



> Sifu Mike Bingo is a native New Yorker of Italian ethnicity. He grew up in the Italian neighborhood and as a result, became a good street fighter at a very early age. Mike was always very athletic. As an adolescent, he trained as a boxer at the Main Street gym. He also wrestled, played football and baseball. He is a carpenter by trade.
> 
> Mike Bingo is a United States Army Special Forces Combat Veteran who operated in Europe and Asia for over fifteen years. During the years from 1969-1972, he lived in Taiwan, ROC and studied extensively under his teacher, Hsu Hong Chi, of Tang Shou Tao famous lineage, becoming his senior student. .licensed teacher and most respected lineage holder. He retired from the Special Forces at the rank of Sergeant Major.
> 
> SGM Mike Bingo is an expert in close-quarter, hand-to-hand combat. He has trained extensively in Ju-Jit-Su/ Judo, Okinawa Karate and Tang Shou Tao Kung-Fu.



Here is what is listed as the school's lineage.....



> The Sin Lung Kwoon (Celestial Dragon School) is the fourth generation from Taiwan. The schools chairman is Sifu Mike Bingo, the school is dedicated to Sifu Bingos teacher Master-Teacher Hsu Hong Chi of Taipei Taiwan whose Taipei Sin Lung Kwoon is third generation Hsing-I. Master Hsu Hong Chis teacher is Master Huang-I-Hsiang, founder of the Tang Shou Tao and the Wu Tao Kwoon second generation Hsing-I. The first generation Hsing-I master is Chang Chun Feng, Huang-I-Hsiangs teacher. His school is I-Tsung Kuo-Shu Kwoon. Master Chang Chun Feng came from mainland China, San Dong province after the great Chinese Civil War in 1948. He studied Hsing-I under Li Tsun-I and Pa-Kua under Kao-I-Sheng in the early decades of the 20th century.



There are at least two associations in North America that appear to be related to the system that is taught at Sin Lung (Tang Shou Tao). They are listed below....

American Tang Shou Tao Association

Sifu Bingo's school is not listed in the Kwoon Directory but his name does appear in the lineage of the system. See below....



		Code:
	

Xing Yi Quan Lineage   					 				 						 		 	 	 		 	This is a list of our Xing Yi Lineage. It is not comprehensive to all Xing Yi but it traces our line back to General Yue Fei and includes a few notable "Uncles" in the list.  Bolded names indicate people in our lineage, while names in parenthesis list alternate names by which they were known.
 
   
 [CENTER][B]General Yue Fei[/B] &#23731;&#39131;: [I]Creator of Hsing-I[/I]

[B]Ji  Ji Ke[/B] &#23020;&#38555;&#21487; (Ji Long Feng &#23020;&#38534;&#20016;)
[B]Cao Ji Wu[/B] &#26361;&#32380;&#27494;, Ma Xue Li &#39340;&#23416;&#31150;  

[B]Dai Long Bang[/B] &#25140;&#40845;&#37030;, Dai Lin Bang 
[B]
Li Luo Neng[/B] &#26446;&#27931;&#33021; (Li Neng Ran) 

Che Yi Zhai &#36554;&#27589;&#40779;(Che Yong Hong), Song Shi Rong &#23435;&#19990;&#27054;, 
[B]Liu Qi Lan[/B] &#21016;&#22855;&#20848;, Guo Yun Shen &#37101;&#38642;&#28145; 

[B]Li Cun Yi[/B] &#26446;&#23384;&#32681;, Keng  Cheng Xing, Zhang Zao Dong &#24373;&#20806;&#26481; 
Chen Pan Ling (Chen Jun Feng), Huang Po Nien,  Shang Yun Chang, [B]Zhang Jun Feng [/B]&#24373;&#20426;&#23792;

Hong Yi Wen &#27946;&#25087;&#25991;, Hong Yi Mian &#27946;&#25087;&#26825;,  [B]Hong Yi Xiang [/B]&#27946;&#25087;&#31077;: [I]Founder of the Tang Shou Tao[/I]

[B]Xu Hong Ji [/B]&#35377;&#40251;&#22522;[B]:[/B][I] Founder of  the International Tang Shou Tao Association[/I], Black Snake, Li Laoshi 

John  Price, Mike Patterson, [B]Dale Akio Shigenaga[/B]:[I] Founder of the  American Tang Shou Tao Association[/I], [U][COLOR=Red]Mike Bingo[/COLOR][/U], James McNeil, Vince Black  
  
Students of Dale Shigenaga:[I] 1st Generation ATSTA Students[/I]
  
Anthony Franklin
Mark Kimzey
Lani Lum
Tim Bonson
Dan  Albritton
Charles Benza
Rick Deisler
Richard Iser
Ron Torrez
Kim  Albritton
John Simpson
Debbie Bryan
  
2nd Generation ATSTA Students
Rick Coila
Jason Crahen
Mike Boen
Danny Motta
Nate Cross
Tim Heckman
Jason Morris
Read Wall
[/CENTER]
  [FONT=Garamond][pronunciation guide for chinese names: Q = ch; C = ts; e = uh; Y = silent at beginning of word; [/FONT][FONT=Garamond]O = uh in middle of word; X =sy; Zh = dj; U = oo][/FONT]


The name Vince Black also appears  in the lineage near Sifu Bingo's. Vince Black is the founder of  North American Tang Shou Tao if I am not mistaken.

North American Tang Shou Tao Association (NATSTA) 

I did not find any realtionship between NATSTA and Sifu Bingo. There does appear to be some lineage similarities between the Xing Yi taught by NATSTA and the Sin Lung Kwoon. Both of the associations seem to come from the same roots. Was there split at some point? Did politics get in the way? 

I received a reccomendation from Dale Dugas of Boston Baguazhang. He holds the title of Xiang Dao at that school. Here are his responses to my inquiry.....



> Shifu Mike Bingo would be the best choice.
> 
> He teaches at the Sin Lung Kwoon



When I asked him to elaborate he replied with the following....



> Its the best training you can get in that area that is real and will give back benefits later in life.
> 
> enjoy



The Sin Lung Kwoon also teaches Shuai Jiao based on a conversation that I had with one of their representatives over the phone. I don't get a bad vibe from this place thus far but I freely admit that I am most likely far less experienced than either of you that have replied here. I could very easily overlook something so I truly welcome any insight that is shared. No decision has been made as of yet. The search continues.....


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## jarrod

very helpful thread, i'm moving to parker next month & was planning on visiting some CMA schools before i find a jujitsu school.  i was especially planning trying the chin na class at http://www.taikungha.com/schedule.html

jf


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## Xue Sheng

ebozzz said:


> Thanks for all of the additional insight. Out of the sites that I listed, the Sin Lung Kwoon was actually the school that had the most of my attention. It's location , central Denver, would make access to lessons pretty convenient but again, I am not just looking for the best location. I definitely want high quality instruction. If I can find that in a facility that is easier for me to attend, I think that it increases my chances of being able to participate on a regular basis. I'm a beginner so I will need *plenty* of participation, right?
> 
> Since I initially posted this thread, I have also obtained a little more information on Sifu Mike Bingo of Sin Lung. Here's his brief biography which I am sure that you have probably already read.....
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what is listed as the school's lineage.....
> 
> 
> 
> There are at least two associations in North America that appear to be related to the system that is taught at Sin Lung (Tang Shou Tao). They are listed below....
> 
> American Tang Shou Tao Association
> 
> Sifu Bingo's school is not listed in the Kwoon Directory but his name does appear in the lineage of the system. See below....
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Xing Yi Quan Lineage                                                                                                  This is a list of our Xing Yi Lineage. It is not comprehensive to all Xing Yi but it traces our line back to General Yue Fei and includes a few notable "Uncles" in the list.  Bolded names indicate people in our lineage, while names in parenthesis list alternate names by which they were known.
> 
> 
> [center][B]General Yue Fei[/B] &#23731;&#39131;: [I]Creator of Hsing-I[/I][/center]
> 
> [center][B]Ji  Ji Ke[/B] &#23020;&#38555;&#21487; (Ji Long Feng &#23020;&#38534;&#20016;)
> [B]Cao Ji Wu[/B] &#26361;&#32380;&#27494;, Ma Xue Li &#39340;&#23416;&#31150;  [/center]
> 
> [center][B]Dai Long Bang[/B] &#25140;&#40845;&#37030;, Dai Lin Bang [/center]
> 
> [center][B]Li Luo Neng[/B] &#26446;&#27931;&#33021; (Li Neng Ran) [/center]
> 
> [center]Che Yi Zhai &#36554;&#27589;&#40779;(Che Yong Hong), Song Shi Rong &#23435;&#19990;&#27054;,
> [B]Liu Qi Lan[/B] &#21016;&#22855;&#20848;, Guo Yun Shen &#37101;&#38642;&#28145; [/center]
> 
> [center][B]Li Cun Yi[/B] &#26446;&#23384;&#32681;, Keng  Cheng Xing, Zhang Zao Dong &#24373;&#20806;&#26481;
> Chen Pan Ling (Chen Jun Feng), Huang Po Nien,  Shang Yun Chang, [B]Zhang Jun Feng [/B]&#24373;&#20426;&#23792;[/center]
> 
> [center]Hong Yi Wen &#27946;&#25087;&#25991;, Hong Yi Mian &#27946;&#25087;&#26825;,  [B]Hong Yi Xiang [/B]&#27946;&#25087;&#31077;: [I]Founder of the Tang Shou Tao[/I][/center]
> 
> [center][B]Xu Hong Ji [/B]&#35377;&#40251;&#22522;[B]:[/B][I] Founder of  the International Tang Shou Tao Association[/I], Black Snake, Li Laoshi [/center]
> 
> [center]John  Price, Mike Patterson, [B]Dale Akio Shigenaga[/B]:[I] Founder of the  American Tang Shou Tao Association[/I], [U][COLOR=red]Mike Bingo[/COLOR][/U], James McNeil, Vince Black  [/center]
> 
> [center]Students of Dale Shigenaga:[I] 1st Generation ATSTA Students[/I][/center]
> 
> [center]Anthony Franklin
> Mark Kimzey
> Lani Lum
> Tim Bonson
> Dan  Albritton
> Charles Benza
> Rick Deisler
> Richard Iser
> Ron Torrez
> Kim  Albritton
> John Simpson
> Debbie Bryan[/center]
> 
> [center]2nd Generation ATSTA Students
> Rick Coila
> Jason Crahen
> Mike Boen
> Danny Motta
> Nate Cross
> Tim Heckman
> Jason Morris
> Read Wall[/center]
> 
> [FONT=Garamond][pronunciation guide for chinese names: Q = ch; C = ts; e = uh; Y = silent at beginning of word; [/FONT][FONT=Garamond]O = uh in middle of word; X =sy; Zh = dj; U = oo][/FONT]
> 
> 
> The name Vince Black also appears in the lineage near Sifu Bingo's. Vince Black is the founder of North American Tang Shou Tao if I am not mistaken.
> 
> North American Tang Shou Tao Association (NATSTA)
> 
> I did not find any realtionship between NATSTA and Sifu Bingo. There does appear to be some lineage similarities between the Xing Yi taught by NATSTA and the Sin Lung Kwoon. Both of the associations seem to come from the same roots. Was there split at some point? Did politics get in the way?
> 
> I received a reccomendation from Dale Dugas of Boston Baguazhang. He holds the title of Xiang Dao at that school. Here are his responses to my inquiry.....
> 
> 
> 
> When I asked him to elaborate he replied with the following....
> 
> 
> 
> The Sin Lung Kwoon also teaches Shuai Jiao based on a conversation that I had with one of their representatives over the phone. I don't get a bad vibe from this place thus far but I freely admit that I am most likely far less experienced than either of you that have replied here. I could very easily overlook something so I truly welcome any insight that is shared. No decision has been made as of yet. The search continues.....


 
Um

That Xingyi lineage makes no sense.

Dai Long Bang is Dai family Xinyiquan not Xingyiquan and it is likely that Xingyiquan came from Xinyiquan. So he would be before Ji Jike. Also just as a note; Although General Yue Fei is a real person in Chinese history he is the mythological founder of Xingyiquan that historically excepted founder is Ji Jike (Ji Longfeng)

Which brings me to "first generation Hsing-I master is Chang Chun Feng" First generation would be Ji Jike.


----------



## ebozzz

jarrod said:


> very helpful thread, i'm moving to parker next month & was planning on visiting some CMA schools before i find a jujitsu school.  i was especially planning trying the chin na class at http://www.taikungha.com/schedule.html
> 
> jf



Hello Jarrod,

Here is another school that I found which is based in Centennial not far from Parker.

School of Chinese Fighting Arts

I didn't feel good about this one at all so I probably will not consider it. You may feel differently. I am also aware a couple of Jujitsu schools near Parker...

Fusen Academy

Mizukan Dojo

I know nothing about the quality of the those two schools so do your homework. Another place that you may want to check out is the Ninpiden Dojo. It's a Ninjutsu school that is actually Parker that has a loyal following and seems to have good ancestry.

Ninpiden Dojo

Good luck!


----------



## Xue Sheng

ebozzz

Some info on Xingyiquan

Xingyiquan 5 element for (Generally the first form you learn) you might want to look here to see Xingyiquan videos

Also Santi Shi is a BIG part of Xingyiquan and you are talking about going with your 2 children ages 9 and 16. Santi shi is this and part of "real" Xingyiquan training is standing in santi for a long time. As my last Sifu was told by his Sifu "if you stand for 20 minutes you are a beginner" meaning 20 minutes per side for a total of 40 minutes. 

Real Xingyiquan is not flashy or pretty and the training is generally hard and at times painful. It is not real popular due to this but I personally think it is one of the best CMA styles on the planet. Most unfortunately high level teachers are hard to find.

I don't want to discourage you but these are things to take into consideration before you jump into a style.


----------



## ebozzz

Xue Sheng said:


> Um
> 
> That Xingyi lineage makes no sense.
> 
> Dai Long Bang is Dai family Xinyiquan not Xingyiquan and it is likely that Xingyiquan came from Xinyiquan. So he would be before Ji Jike. Also just as a note; Although General Yue Fei is a real person in Chinese history he is the mythological founder of Xingyiquan that historically excepted founder is Ji Jike (Ji Longfeng)
> 
> Which brings me to "first generation Hsing-I master is Chang Chun Feng" First generation would be Ji Jike.



My head hurts from all of this!  Xue, thanks for sharing once again.....


----------



## ebozzz

Xue Sheng said:


> ebozzz
> 
> Some info on Xingyiquan
> 
> Xingyiquan 5 element for (Generally the first form you learn) you might want to look here to see Xingyiquan videos
> 
> Also Santi Shi is a BIG part of Xingyiquan and you are talking about going with your 2 children ages 9 and 16. Santi shi is this and part of "real" Xingyiquan training is standing in santi for a long time. As my last Sifu was told by his Sifu "if you stand for 20 minutes you are a beginner" meaning 20 minutes per side for a total of 40 minutes.
> 
> Real Xingyiquan is not flashy or pretty and the training is generally hard and at times painful. It is not real popular due to this but I personally think it is one of the best CMA styles on the planet. Most unfortunately high level teachers are hard to find.
> 
> I don't want to discourage you but these are things to take into consideration before you jump into a style.



Xue,

You are not discouraging me at all. Finding a good CMA school is very difficult to do. I know very little about the arts other than what I have read and including a few videos that I have seen. That's why I posted the thread. 

Xingyiquan is really what I was personally after. I definitely am interested more in the internal arts for myself. The more I research this, the more it seems like the kids may be going to a different school than the one than I will attend. I had already mentioned this as being an option. If that is what it takes, that's what I will do.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Get ready for more head hurting - xingyiquan

First I have to make a correction, I apologize I am not at home where all my books and notes are on this. Also like many things in CMA lineage there is more than one story as to origin.  Look here 

Xingyiquan lineage is considered to be as follows by Jin Yunting 

Ji Jike > Cao Jiwu > Dai Longbang > Li Feiyu > Liu Qilan > Li Cunyi

Excerpt from Xingyi Boxing Manual by Jin Yunting

But there is much discussion as to who Dai Longbang actually learned from. It is pretty well known who Li Laoneng taught but not who he really learned from although many say it was Dai Longbang who was Dai family Xinyiquan which then makes it a whole lot more confusing as to what Ji Jike was actually teaching but it is fairly well known that he developed a spear style that may have been the root of Dai Xinyiquan. So at this point the first documented Xingyiquan person is Li Laoneng who may or may not have learned Xinyiquan form the dai family.

In the lineage from Jin Yuting he has Li Feiyue who may be Li Laoneng, I am not sure but Li Laoneng is allegedly Liu Qinlins sifu. And Liu Qinlin taught Li Cunyi. Li Cunyi also learned Bagua as well allegedly from Dong Haichuan the historically excepted founder of Baguazhang (but the Yin Yang Bapazhang people dispute that) 

Now to Chan Chun Feng  (Zhan Junfeng) 1902  1974 [video]

He was a student of Li Cunyi (Xingyi and Bagua) and Gao Yisheng (Gao style Bagua)

So he was a legitimate Xingyi/Bagua guy just not first generation.


----------



## ebozzz

Xue Sheng said:


> Get ready for more head hurting



Ouch! 

I'm so confused now. I only own one book on Xing Yi Chaun (Form and Will Boxing by Lin Jianhua) who lists his teacher as Wen Jingming. I need to get more. 

From what I am interpreting, you & others are saying is that there is a discrepancy with the lineage that was provided on the site of the Sin Lung Kwoon and also of the American Tang Shou Tao Association that I need to take into consideration. There is also some concern about the pictures displaying the Santi Shi postures which were available on his site. Is that correct? 

The headache continues....


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

After looking at the picture more closely it might not be Santi but a transmission into Metal as is listed. My teacher would tell me be careful of photographs they sometimes can be misleading. 

Vince Black is a senior student of Li Zi Ming and Li Zi Ming appointed him the president of the U.S. branch of Li Zi Ming organization.

On what Xue was saying about Xingyiquan and Xinyiquan they are obviously different in name Xing(form) Yi(intent) Quan(fist) VS Xin(Emotion) Yi(intent) Quan(fist)

More info on that:
http://www.kungfu-taichi.com/servlet/kungfoo/Action/Resource/ResourceKey/1791

On the Ninpiden school. I do not know who is teacher or organization is so I don't know how legit he is.

The other Jujutsu schools are Brazilian and Gendai(modern creation)


----------



## Xue Sheng

ebozzz said:


> Ouch!
> 
> I'm so confused now. I only own one book on Xing Yi Chaun (Form and Will Boxing by Lin Jianhua) who lists his teacher as Wen Jingming. I need to get more.
> 
> From what I am interpreting, you & others are saying is that there is a discrepancy with the lineage that was provided on the site of the Sin Lung Kwoon and also of the American Tang Shou Tao Association that I need to take into consideration. There is also some concern about the pictures displaying the Santi Shi postures which were available on his site. Is that correct?
> 
> The headache continues....


 
Yes but I wouldn't worry about it. I can get his lineage to Li Laoneng. You can read different books on Xingyiquan by reputable people and get different lineages. Occasionally, if you know who a certain masters students were you find a fake lineage but all that lineage is really good for is history and finding fakes and finding fakes is difficult. 

And now that I am home I can check a few more things and Li Feiyu is Li Loaning. And Dai Longbang trained Xinyi with Cao Jiwu and trained with Ma Xeuli who was more his MA brother than a sifu. And that Jike is still considered the founder of Xingyiquan but many people of his day called what he did Jike Boxing and he did allegedly teach Xinyiquan to Cao Jiu. But understand at Ji Jike you are now back between 1602 - 1680. And lineages in CMA can get hard to verify the older they get. Basically Li Loaning (1809 - 1890) is the only person with any certainty you can get to and be pretty sure who his students actually were. 

If I lived in the area I would most certainly go check his school. From the pictures it is hard to judge and his postures of the 5 elements do not look like what I was taught by 2 different sifus but then what I was taught by 2 different sifus does not look the same and they are both Herbei style Xingyiquan. However they do have similarities. The first one looks more like what I am told comes from Li Cunyi and you can see that by looking for videos of Di Guoyong and Wang Deming. And Wang Deming is the real deal; he was a body guard for a time. And Di Guoyong is also considered the real deal as well. My other sifu came from BP Chan and this version of Herbei is a bit different but I most certainly would not question BP Chan he to was rather talented and quite good. So differences are sometimes not a bad thing. However there was a link you provided (not the one to sifu bingo) that showed a gentleman in either Santi or Piquan and his stance, alignment and posture were horribly wrong and I might go see his school but I would watch him REAL close and ask him a whole lot of questions.

In traditional Xingyiquan there are always 3 levels of student and teacher. Basically beginner, intermediate and advanced and if you are a student you will always start from the beginning but the sifu can make the difference. If you can find an advanced sifu you have hit gold but what I have found is always intermediate and beginner and you can only go so far with them and stay in Xingyiquan but you can learn from them but you need to study (read) on your own IMO in these cases to keep a check on where you are and where you want to be.

Books
There are some good ones here

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/taichi_books.htm#xingyi

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/taichi_books.htm#transxingyi

Also I like

The Xingyi Boxing Manual by Jin Yunting

Di Guoyong on Xingyiquan

Li Tianji's The Skills of Xingyiquan

Xing Yi Nei Gong Compiled/Edited by Dan Miller and Tim Cartmell

And I may be labeled a blasphemer but....

Sun Lutang also wrote a book on Xingyi "Xingyiquan Xue The study of form mind boxing" but I must admit it is my least favorite


----------



## ebozzz

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> After looking at the picture more closely it might not be Santi but a transmission into Metal as is listed. My teacher would tell me be careful of photographs they sometimes can be misleading.



Now I feel better! 



JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Vince Black is a senior student of Li Zi Ming and Li Zi Ming appointed him the president of the U.S. branch of Li Zi Ming organization.



He was also a student of Xu Hong Ji (Hsu Hong Chi) per his bio on the NATSTA site. 

http://www.natsta.org/AboutUs/drVinceBlack.asp

Mike Bingo's bio claims that he was also instructed by Xu Hong Ji.



JadecloudAlchemist said:


> On what Xue was saying about Xingyiquan and Xinyiquan they are obviously different in name Xing(form) Yi(intent) Quan(fist) VS Xin(Emotion) Yi(intent) Quan(fist)
> 
> More info on that:
> http://www.kungfu-taichi.com/servlet/kungfoo/Action/Resource/ResourceKey/1791



Boy! You guys are loading me up with information! I actually missed the Xing & Xin previuously. Thanks for clearing that up for me. 



JadecloudAlchemist said:


> On the Ninpiden school. I do not know who is teacher or organization is so I don't know how legit he is.



I have visited that school in the past and I am almost positive that their lineage goes back to Masaaki Hatsumi. It's been a while, several years, but if I recall correctly, they had the information displayed on a wall in the school. There does seem to be a new association involved (Ninpiden International Ninjutsu Martial Arts Association) that I don't remember from my last visit. The website is also different.    




JadecloudAlchemist said:


> The other Jujutsu schools are Brazilian and Gendai(modern creation)



The Fusen Academy is less than 5 minutes from my residence and the Mizukan Dojo is less than 15 minutes away. I've never paid either of them visit.   

Here's an update on my search. I spoke with Ho's School of Chinese Martial Arts earlier. Gretchen Ho took my call and it does seem to be a potential option. It may even be perfect for myself and my kids. The kids program sounds wonderful. The commute would be approximately 45 minutes one way. Sad thing that I can't find many options that are closer. I've got less of a headache now but the search continues. Thanks again....


----------



## ebozzz

Xue Sheng said:


> Yes but I wouldn't worry about it. I can get his lineage to Li Laoneng. You can read different books on Xingyiquan by reputable people and get different lineages. Occasionally, if you know who a certain masters students were you find a fake lineage but all that lineage is really good for is history and finding fakes and finding fakes is difficult.
> 
> And now that I am home I can check a few more things and Li Feiyu is Li Loaning. And Dai Longbang trained Xinyi with Cao Jiwu and trained with Ma Xeuli who was more his MA brother than a sifu. And that Jike is still considered the founder of Xingyiquan but many people of his day called what he did Jike Boxing and he did allegedly teach Xinyiquan to Cao Jiu. But understand at Ji Jike you are now back between 1602 - 1680. And lineages in CMA can get hard to verify the older they get. Basically Li Loaning (1809 - 1890) is the only person with any certainty you can get to and be pretty sure who his students actually were.
> 
> If I lived in the area I would most certainly go check his school. From the pictures it is hard to judge and his postures of the 5 elements do not look like what I was taught by 2 different sifus but then what I was taught by 2 different sifus does not look the same and they are both Herbei style Xingyiquan. However they do have similarities. The first one looks more like what I am told comes from Li Cunyi and you can see that by looking for videos of Di Guoyong and Wang Deming. And Wang Deming is the real deal; he was a body guard for a time. And Di Guoyong is also considered the real deal as well. My other sifu came from BP Chan and this version of Herbei is a bit different but I most certainly would not question BP Chan he to was rather talented and quite good. So differences are sometimes not a bad thing. However there was a link you provided (not the one to sifu bingo) that showed a gentleman in either Santi or Piquan and his stance, alignment and posture were horribly wrong and I might go see his school but I would watch him REAL close and ask him a whole lot of questions.
> 
> In traditional Xingyiquan there are always 3 levels of student and teacher. Basically beginner, intermediate and advanced and if you are a student you will always start from the beginning but the sifu can make the difference. If you can find an advanced sifu you have hit gold but what I have found is always intermediate and beginner and you can only go so far with them and stay in Xingyiquan but you can learn from them but you need to study (read) on your own IMO in these cases to keep a check on where you are and where you want to be.
> 
> Books
> There are some good ones here
> 
> http://www.plumpub.com/sales/taichi_books.htm#xingyi
> 
> http://www.plumpub.com/sales/taichi_books.htm#transxingyi
> 
> Also I like
> 
> The Xingyi Boxing Manual by Jin Yunting
> 
> Di Guoyong on Xingyiquan
> 
> Li Tianji's The Skills of Xingyiquan
> 
> Xing Yi Nei Gong Compiled/Edited by Dan Miller and Tim Cartmell
> 
> And I may be labeled a blasphemer but....
> 
> Sun Lutang also wrote a book on Xingyi "Xingyiquan Xue The study of form mind boxing" but I must admit it is my least favorite



Xue,

I feel *much *better now about Sifu Bingo. You, Jaded Cloud and clfsean have been a tremendous help!


----------



## Xue Sheng

ebozzz said:


> Xue,
> 
> I feel *much *better now about Sifu Bingo. You, Jaded Cloud and clfsean have been a tremendous help!


 
Go check out his school but watch some vids of the people I mentioned first. Then talk with the sifu and see how you feel.

But I should make something clear I do believe that clfsean and I are on the same page here as to top choices.



clfsean said:


> My thoughts...
> 
> ... Boulder Kung Fu/Gao Bagua top choices...
> ... Wah Lum
> ... Ho's


 
I am a recovering Xingyiquan junkie  I would give just about any Xingyiquan school the benefit of the doubt and go check them out. And my last sifu was better than my first but he to lacked some understanding of Xingyiquan in a fight. He always reverted to his past training of TKD and Kenpo and they are very different from Xingyiquan, but he was a damn good fighter. Some may not care about that but I am a stickler for the traditional style so it mattered to me. I see some discrepencies between what I was taught and Sifu Bingo but without actually seeing him do the style in person its is hard to judge.

But as far as top choices I do believe clfsean got it and let me tell you what little I have seen of Gao style bagua and the bagua I have done in the past, bagua is pretty damn cool too.


----------



## ebozzz

Xue Sheng said:


> Go check out his school but watch some vids of the people I mentioned first. Then talk with the sifu and see how you feel.



I plan to do just that. If my schedule permits, it will take place before the middle of next week. 



Xue Sheng said:


> But I should make something clear I do believe that clfsean and I are on the same page here as to top choices.


 
Understood and I truly respect all of the insight that all of you have shared with me. 



Xue Sheng said:


> I am a recovering Xingyiquan junkie  I would give just about any Xingyiquan school the benefit of the doubt and go check them out. And my last sifu was better than my first but he to lacked some understanding of Xingyiquan in a fight. He always reverted to his past training of TKD and Kenpo and they are very different from Xingyiquan, but he was a damn good fighter. Some may not care about that but I am a stickler for the traditional style so it mattered to me.



 I agree. It's very important for me to learn how to be an effective fighter in whatever style I am studying. If I am fortunate enough to find a Xing Yi teacher, I want to learn to fight as a Xing Yi stylist.     



Xue Sheng said:


> I see some discrepencies between what I was taught and Sifu Bingo but without actually seeing him do the style in person its is hard to judge.



Maybe I can get a short video of the session that I attend when I make my visit. I don't want to upset anyone by doing it without permission so I will ask if it's acceptable. If I can, it will not be high quality as I will be shooting it from my phone. It only has a 2 megapixel camera. It should be good enough to see the quality of training. 



Xue Sheng said:


> But as far as top choices I do believe clfsean got it and let me tell you what little I have seen of Gao style bagua and the bagua I have done in the past, bagua is pretty damn cool too.



I do like that Gao Bagua school also but it would take over an hour drive one way to get there from where I live. That could cause some serious challenges. That's one of the reason's that I am hoping that Sifu Bingo's school is the real deal. It will still take me 30+ minutes to reach his location but that shorter commute will make a lot of difference during the winter months when the snow starts.


----------



## Xue Sheng

ebozzz said:


> I do like that Gao Bagua school also but it would take over an hour drive one way to get there from where I live. That could cause some serious challenges. That's one of the reason's that I am hoping that Sifu Bingo's school is the real deal. It will still take me 30+ minutes to reach his location but that shorter commute will make a lot of difference during the winter months when the snow starts.


 
My last Xingyiquan Sifu was very knowledgeable about the root of Xingyiquan and the forms and applications he just could not take it to the sparing level. But this was more likely due to his extensive TKD and Kempo background and he was a fighter back in the day. This is not to say I did not learn some things from his about fighting that were applicable to Xingyiquan or any other CMA for that matter because I most certainly did. And I will admit the sparing was a WHOLE lot-o-fun :EG:

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

EDIT:

This is just me, do what you feel is best, but I do not think I would ask to video tape it. I can tell you that my second Xingyiquan sifu would not allow it and my first Xinigyiquan these days would likely charge you for it.


----------



## ebozzz

Ok, here's another update. I was able to visit the Shaolin Hung Mei school and I think that it's the real deal. The Sifu there, Howie Solow, was trained by Tonny Kho who I believe still teaches in the Long Island, NY area. 

I did a few searches for Mr. Kho and found some interesting information. First, there is a description of the school's training that is much better than I can do with my limited experience of CMAs. It's August of 2000 so I imagine that some things have changed. Here it is...



> The visit went really well. The way the classes started and are conducted today was the most interesting part to me. Shifu Solow would workout and practice at the Recreation Center when he moved here for work in 1991. At that point he had been studying with Tonny Kho for 15+ years. A couple of folks asked him teach them. After a few months, he agreed. The classes have been held at the rec. center ever since. Students pay the $3.50 to get into the Recreation Center and the instruction is free. The school buys weapons and other items for the school by performing Lion Dances around the region.
> 
> The classes are conducted in Chinese and English. About half the class was Chinese, which is impressive considering the demographics of the Front Range. Shifu Solow later volunteered that about 70% of the school is Chinese. I met the student who designed and manages the web site. It was his first, and he is trying to develop a business around web design. A really nice guy in his late teens or early 20s.
> 
> The new students were doing nothing but stances, basic footwork, punching and blocking. The more experienced students spent almost the entire class doing two person drills and/or forms. Towards the end of class Shifu Solow and Tonny Kho's son, Rama, pulled out a three section staff and a spear and proceeded to literally fly through an impressive two person set. One false move at the speed they were moving and someone would have been seriously hurt.
> 
> The fact that Rama was here studying with Shifu Solow was also pretty interesting. He is completing his martial eduction with Shifu Solow instead of staying back in New York. It says a lot for Shifu Solow.
> 
> This is a family style through and through with a colorful family history.  It seemed like a happy family too. Pretty cool.
> 
> I have a feeling that it is unlikely that anyone that has not met a Hung Mei Pai student or Shifu directly would have ever heard of them. Until they put the web site up, they never advertised the existence of the school and have competed sparingly. They have kept a low profile for going on 30 years in the USA.



http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1843

Second, Shaolin Hung Mei is affiliated with a Chinese Cultural Center.

The Academy of Chinese Martial and Cultural Arts

Third, Mr. Kho and the school appear to be affiliated with this New York organization....

Long Island Center For Yoga

I also found two entities that offer martial arts training at the Hung Mei location in Boulder, Colorado. 

Gu Feng Tai Chi Club

Kenneth Cohen (He teaches at the cultural center listed above which seems to be synonymous with Shaolin Hung Mei. He also maintains his own site at http://kennethcohen.com/ ) 

I really liked this place. I was surprised by number of Asian students that were participating in the classes. Simply having Asian students does not make it authentic in my mind but when that info was combined with the training that I saw, I was convinced. It's a great school in my opinion. I am *really *jealous of Boulder residents! They have some great training options. I need to relocate.....


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

Ken Cohen is a very good Qigong teacher his work comes highly recommended. The school looks good.


----------



## ebozzz

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Ken Cohen is a very good Qigong teacher his work comes highly recommended. The school looks good.




I spoke with Mr. Cohen via telephone over the weekend. I left him a voice mail message asking him if he knew of some good options for internal arts training. He called me back and told me that he didn't know anyone in the Denver area and added that I was welcome to train with him through seminars/private lessons. 

I may take him up on that at some point in the future. Although, right now I need to train as frequently as possible. He is located in Nederland, Colorado. Getting to Boulder, where he occasionally has lessons, would be difficult to do on a  regular basis. Nederland would almost be impossible unless I hit the lotto and didn't have to work. 

He seemed like a nice gentleman from our conversation. I don't know if I buy that he doesn't know of anyone in the Denver area who teaches some form of Neijia. As well known as he is I would think that I am not the first person to contact him from Denver. He wasn't nasty about it but he politely told me that he could not help me with my search.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

I would be surprised that Ken does not know any Neijia players but I have no idea if he has moved on from association with them or what the story is. His Qigong is well done so if you are looking into that I would highly recommend him or someone he recommends. Ken I don't think is known for any Neijia arts and I am not sure if he practices any martial arts.


----------



## ebozzz

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I would be surprised that Ken does not know any Neijia players but I have no idea if he has moved on from association with them or what the story is.



It could very well be that he does not associate with many people in this area but I would think that he knows of someone. Maybe he is not satisfied with the quality of instruction in the Denver area? Maybe it's a money thing? I mean, it looks as if that is how he earns his income. Those are just *my* opinions now.  



JadecloudAlchemist said:


> His Qigong is well done so if you are looking into that I would highly recommend him or someone he recommends.



During our phone conversation, he said that he would be willing to take me own as a student for Qigong. I may pursue that at a later time after I have gotten some decent training under my belt. His private instruction/seminars would probably make more sense to me then. Right now I need to be able to see someone on at least a weekly basis or several days a week. His location would not make it possible for me to do that.      



JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Ken I don't think is known for any Neijia arts and I am not sure if he practices any martial arts.



Most of the things I have heard about him are related to Qigong. His website (scroll down...) does list Nei Jia Quan as one of the things that he is offering instruction in. This class schedule also states that he _coaches _individuals in Tai Chi, Bagua, Xing Yi, Chinese Sword Play, Wooden Staff, etc......

Regardless, when I left my voice message I inquired about internal martial arts. When he called me back I was offered the opportunity to get training through private lessons him and by participating in his seminars on internal martial arts. I think that it is still a big part of what he does but the Qigong is obviously his bread and butter. My current schedule and location will not permit me to train with him right now but since he was at least polite & courteous enough to call me back, I will keep him in mind there are some changes in the future. That is if he is willing to take me on......


----------



## ebozzz

My search continues but it's looking more like Gao style Ba Gua Zhang is in my future. I found a person who teaches in a park that is convenient to me and my schedule. Thus far it seems to be the best fit of quality and availability. Although, the decision is not final as of yet. 

The Sin Lung Kwoon is still very high on my list but the class schedule may be a problem for me right now.  I *really *want to train in Xing Yi......

I have also found this since my last post......

Denver Shaolin Tai Ji Institute

I have spoken with the instructor and also received favorable comments about him from a couple of his previous teachers. He only does private lessons at this time but the cost is very reasonable. The search goes on....


----------



## Xue Sheng

ebozzz said:


> My search continues but it's looking more like Gao style Ba Gua Zhang is in my future. I found a person who teaches in a park that is convenient to me and my schedule. Thus far it seems to be the best fit of quality and availability. Although, the decision is not final as of yet.
> 
> The Sin Lung Kwoon is still very high on my list but the class schedule may be a problem for me right now.  I *really *want to train in Xing Yi......
> 
> I have also found this since my last post......
> 
> Denver Shaolin Tai Ji Institute
> 
> I have spoken with the instructor and also received favorable comments about him from a couple of his previous teachers. He only does private lessons at this time but the cost is very reasonable. The search goes on....


 
I really like Xingyiquan too but after a Xingyi 12 step program I can now say I'm a recovering Xingyi addict...... SANTI SHI!!!! :uhohh: oh no  :anic: 

The Denver Shaolin Kung Fu Tai Ji Institute is worth checking out but I find this interesting



> Sifu Tony teaches Yang Tai Ji very traditionally


 
The Yang Family teaches

Traditional Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan 103 Movement Hand Form
Traditional Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan 49 Demonstration Form
Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan 13 Movement Hand Form
Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan 16 Movement Hand Form
Traditional Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan 67 Movement Sword Form
Saber Form 13 Posture Form

But take this for what it is worth, not all of this came from Yang Chenfu or anyone else prior to Yang Zhenduo and possibly as new as Yang Jun

My flavor of Yang form Tung Ying Chieh (Dao = Braodsword, Jain = straght sword

Long Form
2 fast forms
2 Dao forms
1 Jain form
Staff form
And of course associated Qigong forms

But then Tung Sigung's first style was Wu/Hao style and one of the fast forms is a combination of Yang and Hao and I beleive at least one of the qigong forms is from Hao style. 

Sifu Tony teaches

10 Form
16 Form
24 Form
42 Form
88 Form
18 Movcment Straight Sword
32 Movement Straight Sword
42 Movement Straight Sword
Wu Dang Tai Ji Straight Sword

Now if I were to teach sets I learned from my first sifu, 24 form and 32 form straight sword they would look rather traditional and I would teach them traditionally but they are not actaully traditional forms. 

Nothing to be concerned about just an observation. Also I beleve his teacher is no in Flushing NY, but I could be wrong about that.

As to the number of forms in the long form, 88 to 103, it all depends on how you count and from my flavor of Yang it is just called the Long form


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## ebozzz

Xue,

Thank you very much once again. Unfortunately, the Denver Shaolin Tai Ji Institute is probably not going to work for me at this time.  Sifu Tony has a very small window of availability. Monday, Wednesday and Friday between the hours of 4:00 and 6:00pm are what he has in general on two of those days he would only have from 5:00 until 6:00pm. 

As I mentioned in my previous post, it would be private sessions one day per week. Work and other family commitments would prevent me from training during those days of the week at the specified times. My 9 year old daughter has Tae Kwon Do lessons beginning at 6:00pm and I normally do not leave my place of employment until close to 5:00pm. 

So, the Gao style Ba Gua Zhang still looks like it is the best option thus far from a scheduling standpoint. I am going to work out with that group Saturday morning, the 30th. The classes are 1 1/2 hours long and only one day per week. Wish me luck!


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## Xue Sheng

Gao style Ba Gua Zhang is pretty cool, enjoy the training.


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## ebozzz

I am sure that I will enjoy it. I have not trained actively for many years so I *really* need to for many reasons. My daughter's Tae Kwon Do instructor has been lobbying to get me to start training there. While it is a very good for for her at this time, it's just not what I am looking for. I have expressed that to him as politely as I could but he still keeps asking!


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## Xue Sheng

I came form TKD but it was years ago before it was an Olympic event.


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## ebozzz

Xue Sheng said:


> I came form TKD but it was years ago before it was an Olympic event.



My daughter's dojang is affiliated with the ITF. There is a school across the street from it that teaches more of an Olympic style of training but I didn't like it as much. The place where she is suits her very well. It's student base is mostly kids. There is no _Cobra Kai_ type of mentality. They have several programs that encourage the class to stirive for educational excellence and to be responsible human beings. As a parent, that stuff is really my job but it's nice to have a resource to reinforce what I am already passing on to her.  

Check this out now. The Chinese cultural center that Shaolin Hung Mei teaches out of also has a Yin style Baguazhang class!

http://www.academychinesearts.org/programs/index.php

http://www.yinstylebaguazhang.com/group_Colorado.html

I just had the pleasure of speaking with the instuctor via telephone. I liked what I heard from him and I have permission to pay a visit to their class in the near future. 

I also found out the school in Boulder that was teaching Gao style Baguazhang is no longer in operation. That concerns me a bit as the only other options for Gao style that I have been able to find would be two individuals that teach in the park that I mentioned earlier. Are they still going to be around for the next several years as I work to increase my knowledge & skill? I would hate to get started only to find out after a short period that the training was ending.

The Sin Lung Kwoon and The Yin style Baguazhang class appear to have some good roots. What I mean is that they have been around a while and from the looks of it, they plan to be around a lot longer. That's important to me. 

I would not be able to make all of the class times that are available so I actually communicated with Sifu Mike Bingo of the Sin Lung Kwoon to get his opinion on how beneficial it would be for me to attend the Saturday morning class on a regular basis and occasionally a Monday or Wednesday session as time permits. His thoughts were as follows....



> Internal Hsing I training is a lifetime endeavor. 1 formal class per week plus a daily self-training session of quality work is good enough to get started. If this fits your schedule, then do it. You will be enhancing your health one thousand fold.
> 
> Sifu Mike Bingo



That makes me feel better about the possibility of getting my Xingyiquan.  I would have to try to make some changes so that I could devote more time to in class training down the road.  

The instructor of the Yin style class stated that the one class a week is more about passing on new information and correcting things than actually practicing. He stressed that it was absolutely necessary that I put in enough work away from class to get anything out of the training. He also included that there were extra classes on a sporadic basis. 

This search is narrowing down. Whatever I decide to do, it is not going to be easy logistically or in the effort/commitment that it requires. I have to get my mind in the right frame....


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## Xue Sheng

ebozzz said:


> My daughter's dojang is affiliated with the ITF. There is a school across the street from it that teaches more of an Olympic style of training but I didn't like it as much. The place where she is suits her very well. It's student base is mostly kids. There is no _Cobra Kai_ type of mentality. They have several programs that encourage the class to stirive for educational excellence and to be responsible human beings. As a parent, that stuff is really my job but it's nice to have a resource to reinforce what I am already passing on to her.
> 
> Check this out now. The Chinese cultural center that Shaolin Hung Mei teaches out of also has a Yin style Baguazhang class!
> 
> http://www.academychinesearts.org/programs/index.php
> 
> http://www.yinstylebaguazhang.com/group_Colorado.html
> 
> I just had the pleasure of speaking with the instuctor via telephone. I liked what I heard from him and I have permission to pay a visit to their class in the near future.
> 
> I also found out the school in Boulder that was teaching Gao style Baguazhang is no longer in operation. That concerns me a bit as the only other options for Gao style that I have been able to find would be two individuals that teach in the park that I mentioned earlier. Are they still going to be around for the next several years as I work to increase my knowledge & skill? I would hate to get started only to find out after a short period that the training was ending.
> 
> The Sin Lung Kwoon and The Yin style Baguazhang class appear to have some good roots. What I mean is that they have been around a while and from the looks of it, they plan to be around a lot longer. That's important to me.
> 
> I would not be able to make all of the class times that are available so I actually communicated with Sifu Mike Bingo of the Sin Lung Kwoon to get his opinion on how beneficial it would be for me to attend the Saturday morning class on a regular basis and occasionally a Monday or Wednesday session as time permits. His thoughts were as follows....
> 
> 
> 
> That makes me feel better about the possibility of getting my Xingyiquan.  I would have to try to make some changes so that I could devote more time to in class training down the road.
> 
> The instructor of the Yin style class stated that the one class a week is more about passing on new information and correcting things than actually practicing. He stressed that it was absolutely necessary that I put in enough work away from class to get anything out of the training. He also included that there were extra classes on a sporadic basis.
> 
> This search is narrowing down. Whatever I decide to do, it is not going to be easy logistically or in the effort/commitment that it requires. I have to get my mind in the right frame....


 
Nothing against Gao style but I have only worked with 2 styles of Bagua and one was Yin and I rather liked it. The other I never remember if is was Cheng or Jiang style. Yin style is, IMO, a good choice and there are a lot of YouTube Vids of Yin style out there as well.

I dont know anything about the schools you linked but there is a Yin Style Bagua Group near me that is part of this same group and I do know they are pretty serious about Yin Bagua, heck they train outside year around and in the Northeast that can get mighty cold, but they still train.

Yin Style Info

Baguazhang

Xingyiquan is a wonderful style but hard to find teachers in that are high level. Also some styles of Bagua do have a form or two similar to Xingyiquan (I think Gao is one of those but I'm not sure). Also Shanxi Xingyiquan (I think it's Shanxi) has a high level form that is similar to Bagua circle walking but it is a much tighter circle.


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## ebozzz

Xue Sheng said:


> Nothing against Gao style but I have only worked with 2 styles of Bagua and one was Yin and I rather liked it. The other I never remember if is was Cheng or Jiang style. Yin style is, IMO, a good choice and there are a lot of YouTube Vids of Yin style out there as well.



I have never seen Yin style except for a few YouTube videos. I asked Jack Schaefer, the local Yin style instructor, if he could compare Gao style to his and he said that he felt Yin was a little more direct. He also added that Yin might not be as appealing to look at as Gao or others. Well, I happen to think that Xingyi is beautiful so I could really care less that Yin may be less appealing visually than other styles. 



Xue Sheng said:


> I don&#8217;t know anything about the schools you linked but there is a Yin Style Bagua Group near me that is part of this same group and I do know they are pretty serious about Yin Bagua, heck they train outside year around and in the Northeast that can get mighty cold, but they still train.



It gets cold here in Denver as well but there is a lot less humidity in this area than in the Northeast. I am a native of Southeastern Mississippi. It's very humid there but it does not get as cold or hot, temperature wise, as it gets in the Denver area. Would you believe that I have never felt as cold or as hot in Colorado as I have in Mississippi? It's true!

If I can become comfortable with the idea that the two Gao style options, or comparable teachers, are going to be available for the next several years I may have to get ready for training that will take place year around in that park I mentioned. Also, the picture that is next to the Baguazhang listing on the cultural center's page is outside. Maybe they train in a similar fashion to the group that is in your area? I may have to get my winter gear together for either Gao or Yin! 





​


Xue Sheng said:


> Yin Style Info
> 
> Baguazhang
> 
> Xingyiquan is a wonderful style but hard to find teachers in that are high level.




I've been told by at least one person that there are a *lot* of experienced Xingyiquan teachers in or near Denver. Thus far, I have not been able to find many. Mike Bingo and Kenneth Cohen are the only two that I was able to locate that are possibly considerd to be _high level_ instructors. There are a couple of other people that I am aware of where all I have is a first name and general area of residence.



Xue Sheng said:


> Also some styles of Bagua do have a form or two similar to Xingyiquan (I think Gao is one of those but I'm not sure). Also Shanxi Xingyiquan (I think it's Shanxi) has a high level form that is similar to Bagua circle walking but it is a much tighter circle.



The Tang Shou Tao system that is taught at the Sin Lung Kwoon was founded by Hong Yixiang. I know that he was very adept in Bagua, Xingyi & Taiji but wasn't he known more for his Xingyi? Luo Dexiu trained with Hong Yixiang and he is the person who is integral to the availability of Gao style Bagua in my area. If the answer to my above question is yes, might that explain the Xingyi influence in the Gao style?


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## Xue Sheng

ebozzz said:


> I have never seen Yin style except for a few YouTube videos. I asked Jack Schaefer, the local Yin style instructor, if he could compare Gao style to his and he said that he felt Yin was a little more direct. He also added that Yin might not be as appealing to look at as Gao or others. Well, I happen to think that Xingyi is beautiful so I could really care less that Yin may be less appealing visually than other styles.


 
Yin fu was allegedly the first student of Dong Haichaun and he was also Dong's student the longest, this is where Yin Style comes from. 

Many of Dong's students came from other styles Cheng I beleive was Shuaijiao before becoming a student of Dong Haichuan

Yin Style Baguazhang 

More here

From previous Link

Yin Style: Yin Fu
Shi Style: Shi Jidong 
Cheng Style: Cheng Tinghua 
Liu Style: Liu Baozhen 
Liang Style: Liang Zhenpu 
Fu Style: Fu Zhensong 
Gao Style: Gao Yisheng
Gong Style: Gong Baotian 
Jiang Style: Jiang Rongqiao
Yin Yang Style (Tian Style): Tian Hui


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## ebozzz

I just wanted to take the time to thank each of you that contributed to my thread. Finding a good CMA school is not an easy thing to do in my area so the advice that all of you provided was extremely helpful. No decision has been made yet but I am down to two options. They are.....

The Sin Lung Kwoon

Yin Style Baguazhang (I still have to visit them. This training is available on Tuesday evenings here.)

I also gave serious consideration to Gao style Baguazhang but it would be private instruction only with Gao at this time for the instruction that fits my needs. I kind of feel like I need to be involved and interact with others in a group setting right now after being inactive for many years. Therefore, I have decided that either Sin Lung or Yin will be my new martial arts home. 

I plan to devote some time to bettering my overall physical conditioning for the remainder of this month and begin formal training in July. The delay will allow me the opportunity of visiting the Yin school then giving serious consideration to it and Sin Lung prior to making my choice. It also gives me the necessary time to clear my personal schedule so that I can assure that I will be able to attend my sessions on a regular basis regardless of which situation is chosen. 

I'm excited! It would have been nice to pursue this goal when I was younger but several factors (family, work, etc..) would have made it difficult for me to succeed. Things have changed some. My children are older, my work schedule is a little more agreeable and life has slowed down some. A *lot* hard and painful work lies ahead for me. I must be crazy to want that, huh?


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## Xue Sheng

ebozzz said:


> A lot hard and painful work lies ahead for me.


 
yup...and that is what makes it so damn cool... but then again I was once called a "genuine, certifiable MA House O' Pain maniac" (thank you exile where ever you are) here on MT :EG: so maybe my opinion is not the best here 



ebozzz said:


> I must be crazy to want that, huh?


 
Yup, welcome to the dark side :EG: :jediduel:


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## ebozzz

Hello to all! I just wanted to check in to add a little more information. The Academy of Chinese Martial & Cultural Arts in Boulder, Colorado is truly a unique place for this region. It houses the training facilities for Shaolin Hung Mei, Gu Feng Tai Chi Club and Yin style Baguazhang. There are also lots of other events that take place at that location. Check here for more information. 

It's too bad that the distance required for me to commute to Boulder just doesn't work for me at this time but I plan to stay in touch with the contacts that I have made in hope that the future will allow me participate. I said this earlier in this thread. I am envious of the Boulder residents! In my opinion they have the best variety of quality training options in the Denver Metro area.


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## villain

I studied under Sifu Ha at Tai Kung Ha for a few years before they moved the school to their new location. I know this thread is kinda old, but I didn't see any comments of you having gone by there so figured I could answer questions if you still had any.


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## jarrod

i've settled into my training spots by now, but i'd like to know what you thought of the training, what a typical class was like, that sort of thing.  

jf


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## ebozzz

villain said:


> I studied under Sifu Ha at Tai Kung Ha for a few years before they moved the school to their new location. I know this thread is kinda old, but I didn't see any comments of you having gone by there so figured I could answer questions if you still had any.



You know, I actually did go by the school's location a few times at 10890 East Dartmouth Avenue but each time I did, they were closed even though it was during hours that are scheduled for classes per their website. Since that time I have kind of moved on to different things but I would still love to know what you thought of the training. 

Are you still practicing? If so, where is your current school located? In short, can you please just provide a general review of the training that was available at Tai Kung Ha? Thanks.......


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## ebozzz

jarrod said:


> i've settled into my training spots by now, but i'd like to know what you thought of the training, what a typical class was like, that sort of thing.
> 
> jf



Where did you end up Jarrod?


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## jarrod

i'm doing arnis at colorado academy of martial arts ( http://www.coloradoacademy.com ).  i'm not in their jujitsu program, but i get together with one of their instructors & grapple once a week or so.  after the holidays i'll probably start going to the boxing club at the 20th street rec center.  

jf


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## ebozzz

jarrod said:


> i'm doing arnis at colorado academy of martial arts ( http://www.coloradoacademy.com ).  i'm not in their jujitsu program, but i get together with one of their instructors & grapple once a week or so.  after the holidays i'll probably start going to the boxing club at the 20th street rec center.
> 
> jf



That school, Colorado Academy of Martial Arts, has been around a long time! Something must be right about what they are offering. I hear that 20th street has a serious boxing program and it's also supposed to be very cost effective. Sounds like fun!


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## jarrod

great folks at CAMA.  the owner was one of the guys who helped bring remy presas to the US.  i never had a huge drive to learn arnis, but i couldn't pass up training with this guy.  looking forward to checking out that boxing club, a coworker of mine used to box & spoke pretty highly of them.

jf


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## villain

ebozzz said:


> You know, I actually did go by the school's location a few times at 10890 East Dartmouth Avenue but each time I did, they were closed even though it was during hours that are scheduled for classes per their website. Since that time I have kind of moved on to different things but I would still love to know what you thought of the training.
> 
> Are you still practicing? If so, where is your current school located? In short, can you please just provide a general review of the training that was available at Tai Kung Ha? Thanks.......



Well, when I was going to the school it was over off Alameda and during the summers we always practiced at Washington Park...so that may explain them not being there...but I heard Sifu Ha has a tea and meditation supply kinda store there now too, so I would assume they are around more often at the actual center these days.
I haven't really been practicing for about a year or so, but am probably playing the drum this year at some lion dance performances and will hopefully train with Sifu Ha privately up north at my place in the relatively short term (I'm about an hour and fifteen from the school or so). I have been considering the seven-star mantis school in Boulder (which i hear is very legit), but I have a connection with Sifu Ha that is pretty deep, so I'm not sure I can bring myself to train with anyone else 
As for the training - Sifu Ha doesn't have what you would call a 'traceable' lineage. He grew up in south vietnam, reportedly at a taoist temple, no father to speak of and his mother couldnt really take care of him...so he lived at the temple and apparently started training at a very young age. He studied Hung Gar at the temple and later Tai Chi with a different instructor. After his Hung Gar teacher died, he studied Choy Li Fut with a friend of his original teacher. When doing CLF, he competed some when he was young. Much later, he moved to Oregon and lived there for several years before apparently coming to Denver. He taught here in Denver at a temple down in south Denver and was primarily teaching young asian students whose parents went to the temple. They were free classes and very very traditional from the way I hear it - as in get beat in the legs with sticks when your stance isnt proper kinda traditional. 
about a year or so before I started training with him, they had moved to the school on Alameda. 
The training is a blend of hung gar, choy li fut as well as tai chi, chi gung, etc. added as necessary. He tries to separate out too many of the various disclipines into different classes IMO...and I know why he does it, but I still don't think the structure works as well as intended as basically it requires a time commitment that is very very difficult to achieve if you are going to absorb everything the way he intends. For Sifu Ha (and appropriately I think), it is all intertwined...like you cant have the 'hard' kung fu without the 'soft' tai chi; stuff like chin-na is separated out as a separate class cause despite it being integrated with the kung fu that you would perform, it is a slightly different disclipine and as such he likes to try and teach it as its own 30-45 min session vs. strictly incorporating it into the kung fu training. His approach is logical in some ways, but for a guy like me that works 60-80 hours a week and lives over an hour from the center - such a structure becomes impossible to deal with, regardless of how much I may want to attend every class.
Classes are very traditional (at least from my experience)...you may spend months doing stances, or you will definitely spend months learning even small sections of a form...he doesn't give anything easily...basically expects perfection and you will work on it till he feels like its 'right'...and if you are one of the students that his eye is on - then it better be 'right' both internally and externally. Strength training was very traditional, with weighted stones, and bottles and all kindsa sadistic torture devices  Sifu Ha's english isnt outstanding, so that takes some getting used to. and also to note - is that while he doesnt consider himself a 'monk'...he is pretty close and as such, while hurting people is certainly part of the overall game we are playing - he is focused on the spirituality and the art. He's not into 'fighting like barbarians'  And he holds true with that way of teaching...but that being said, he has taught me how to hurt people fairly effectively too...its just that is not the point 
He is a very good man and a truly good person. Flaws from a school perspective would be that he is not a businessman, and ultimately martial arts schools are businesses in this world. Sifu Ha recognizes that, but has many conflicts with it internally, and struggles with it externally. He grew up and comes from a different world than he lives in today, and as much as he (and many of us possibly) may wish things could be like they were way back when and just have devoted diciples that are living and breathing the art and spirituality on an ongoing basis doing nothing but training and working on spiritual enlightenment, that just isnt the case. 
 As such, schedules, pricing, organizational structure are kinda all over the place. He has at least one student (thuan) that has been with him since he first got to Denver. He is an assistant instructor at this point and a really good guy as well. Outside of a couple guys like that, he has trouble keeping a good volume of students (normally <20 total when i was going to the school itself) due to both the business management issues as well as his pretty brutal training regimine/style. They also rely heavily on lion dance and performances for the new year and to help fund the school...thats pretty cool in some ways, not so cool in others depending on the student and what you are into. 
That all being said, regardless of instructors, I will always consider myself Sifu Ha's student and I hold a great deal of respect for him both as a teacher and as a friend.

Sorry for the novel


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## ebozzz

Villain,

Thanks for the novel! It was very helpful and gave me a good feel of what is offered at Tai Kung Ha. I still would like to get a chance to visit there at some point but my schedule has been a killer lately. Good luck with your future training and thanks again.....


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