# questions



## thekuntawman (May 9, 2003)

why is moromoro suspended? i havent seen him do any name calling or lies told about anybody.

is it because he shows that he doesnt like the american way of doing philippine martial arts? are people that soft there feelings get hurt so easily? what happend to "free speech"? are we men, or women on this board? why is it that when somebody saying something you dont like, everybody wants to shut him up?

you know, if your going to be an expert of the fighting art, you should get used to disagreement and proving your points. this is what is the art is all about, proving who is right. avoiding confrontation does not make you tough, it makes you chicken. if your feelings get hurt so easily, how will you handle the mental and emotional stress of a fight, or what happens right before a fight. his presence is good for this board, because you are seeing another point of view to your own. you know, you cant go through life only dealing with "yes" man.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (May 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> *are we men, or women on this board?  *



What are you saying here?


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## Bob Hubbard (May 9, 2003)

I'll address this point by point....give me a moment to write it up...


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## Bob Hubbard (May 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> why is moromoro suspended? i havent seen him do any name calling or lies told about anybody.



MoroMoro is suspended until 5/19/03.  He was suspended due to being rude and discourtious to another board member after repeated warnings. 

Contrary to some comments I've seen, he was NOT suspended due to very excessive 1-liners (mostly smilieys), nor his obvious gender bias.  



> is it because he shows that he doesnt like the american way of doing philippine martial arts?



Nope.  We could care less if he likes it or not.  This board is world-wide.



> are people that soft there feelings get hurt so easily?



Nope



> what happend to "free speech"?



I'll address this at the end.



> are we men, or women on this board?



We are both.  And if anyone doesn't like it, they can get the hell off this board. We have no place here for prejudiced jerks, no matter how well they might be able to break a board, swing a stick or throw a punch.  



> why is it that when somebody saying something you dont like, everybody wants to shut him up?



Thats life.  Grow thicker skin and stop letting words cut.



> you know, if your going to be an expert of the fighting art, you should get used to disagreement and proving your points.



Expert at a fighting art has nothing to do with proving a point.  Unless that point is that 1 can overpower the other.  There are proper ways to deal with disagreements online.  The "I can kick your ***" stuff belongs in the schoolyards with the other children.



> this is what is the art is all about, proving who is right.



Sorry, if thats ALL the art is about, then its a rather poor art.  I tend to lean towards the idea that its about personal improvement, not how many people I can beat up.



> avoiding confrontation does not make you tough, it makes you chicken.



Thats ********, and any civilized being knows that.  I had a long chat with an grandmaster in his late 70's recently on this subject.  The v.short version was that you must have balance. Which is why many arts also have a healing part to them.  There is an art to avoiding confrontation....its called "Diplomacy".



> if your feelings get hurt so easily, how will you handle the mental and emotional stress of a fight, or what happens right before a fight.



The way humans have for thousands of years.  Experience, learn, and grow.



> his presence is good for this board, because you are seeing another point of view to your own. you know, you cant go through life only dealing with "yes" man.



He is welcome to return provided he can function within our established guidelines.  This forum isn't the "Wild West", and might does not make right here.  As to dealing with "Yes" men....I don't understand.


Now, onto the subject of "Free Speech".
Freedom of Speech is a worthy concept and one which we support wholeheartedly. Indeed it is one of the founding principles of MartialTalk. However, it is important to understand the limitations of this principle and not to abuse it.

You must understand that, especially in regard to website discussion forums, the argument "What about my right to free speech?" simply doesn't hold water either legally or morally.

General Legal Stuff

Free speech does not give you the right to publicly say whatever you like -- it actually has many limitations. There are more laws governing what you can't say than what you can.

You have the right to certain religious, political and other beliefs, and you have the right to express your opinions in an appropriate way without fear of oppression. This does not mean you can demean, insult, slander or offend other people. You cannot give away personal information without consent. You cannot publish adult-only material in a public manner. You cannot publish racist or hateful material. You cannot force your opinion on other people against their will. There are many, many things you can't do.

In addition, although you may have the legal right to express a certain opinion in a public place, this does not mean you have any legal right at all to express this same opinion on someone else's property or in someone else's publication.

Your Free Speech Rights at MartialTalk

To put it bluntly, the only rights you have at MartialTalk are the rights we decide to issue. This is our website and we run it in the way we believe is most appropriate to facilitate our goals. We allow a great deal of leeway in what folks say here, but at the end, we set the limits.  When they are crossed, we take varying levels of action.

If you invite us into your house or place of business, we will respect your values and your code of conduct. If you don't like swearing, we won't swear. If you prefer that we don't discuss religion or politics, we won't. If we don't like your house rules, then maybe we won't bother coming back to your house.

MartialTalk is both our home and our place of business and you are our valued guest. We want you to enjoy your time here -- all we ask is that you respect our house rules. If you find that our rules are not to your liking, you don't have to visit. You are free to set up your own website and implement your own set of rules.

Remember, you're always free to contact us -- we're willing to discuss individual cases and we know we're not perfect. Sometimes we do make mistakes. Just don't expect us to change our general operating policy.


Any questions?


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## thekuntawman (May 10, 2003)

"avoiding confrontation does not make you tough, it makes you chicken" and "if your feelings get hurt so easily, how will you handle the mental and emotional stress of a fight, or what happens right before a fight. "

what i am talking about is being afraid of a confrontation. if a man is in your face talking his mess, and you are not "thick skinned" enough to deal with it without getting mad or humilitated, you will probably end up in a fight. avoiding a fight is good. but a many who his feelings get hurt or embarrassed easily will not be able to do that. how you handle your disagreements says a lot about how you will handle a personal confrontation.

also, if you have no control of your feelings and anger, it will be easy for your opponent to humiliate you, or enrage you, to where you cant think or focus if you do have to fight. hearing somebody insult you should not shake you. like you said, be thick skin and stop letting some stupid words cut you.

kaith said "Expert at a fighting art has nothing to do with proving a point. Unless that point is that 1 can overpower the other. There are proper ways to deal with disagreements online. The "I can kick your ***" stuff belongs in the schoolyards with the other children.

i disagree. the point you prove when you fight is, who is going to get out of this fight with least injury. even a street fight, is a contest. you are trying to beat the other guy. if you are not use to trying to outdo the next guy, you wont know how to do it when that day comes. when a man on the street jumps at you, he is doing that "i can kick your *** stuff" you are talking about. but technique alone is not enough. you have to know how to control your feelings when someone is talking stuff to you, or you will not be able to avoid the fight.


kaith also said "Sorry, if thats ALL the art is about, then its a rather poor art. I tend to lean towards the idea that its about personal improvement, not how many people I can beat up."

no, because fighting, if we are still talking about fighting art, IS about how many people can i beat up. if you want personal improvement, go to tae bo or oprah. i thought we are talking about filipino fighting arts, not buddhism and kung fu. the art was made for fighting, not to accompany some religion. and i dont consider that to be poor"

and when i talk about "yes" men, you dont have to always get along and agree with everyone. if all martial artist agree, then there would only be one style. differences and confrontations is good. because this is how we end up having to challenge what we know.

your rules about respecting other people opinions are good and fair. but all i saw from moromoro is, he disagrees with people and the way they see the martial arts. there is nothing wrong with that.


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## bart (May 10, 2003)

> MoroMoro is suspended until 5/19/03. He was suspended due to being rude and discourtious to another board member after repeated warnings.



MoroMoro is a big advocate of tournament sparring and in tournament sparring, when you break the rules, you get disqualified. And it appears that is exactly what happened. 

This isn't about free speech or being a chicken, it appears to be about respect. Moromoro seems pretty decent to me, although I don't agree with him on a lot of things that he's said, specifically in regard to gender. And sometimes he _was_ downright rude. It didn't bother me, the world needs reactionaries to keep things interesting. He's also still young and a professional student, so I'm sure he has yet to wake a few more _sleeping dragons_. 

But this is Kaith and his group's board. If we want to talk on it, we have to stay within the guidelines of what they will allow, which is pretty broad. They've never censored a legitimate civil argument with salient and cogent arguments on each side. Because of the rules, cogent and salient arguments can exist without being clobbered or lost amongst rampant flaming. MoroMoro will be back on the 19th and all will be back to normal. 




> no, because fighting, if we are still talking about fighting art, IS about how many people can i beat up. if you want personal improvement, go to tae bo or oprah. i thought we are talking about filipino fighting arts, not buddhism and kung fu. the art was made for fighting, not to accompany some religion. and i dont consider that to be poor"



Just my thoughts here, but to me the martial arts about finding _truth_  and it is always subjective. No one can deny the martial aspects and how many people you can beat up, but is that not in a way, _personal improvement_ ? 

Science is objective and art is subjective. Martial arts hence tend to be subjective. Kuntawman, I think you and I agree that being more scientific is more important to us. To others though, that may not be true. They may pursue the arts for health, cultural fulfillment, or to simply make friends. Those are all valid reasons which I respect and even partake in, although not as much as the real fighting application. Because to me, that's the truth that I'm after. 

So MoroMoro will be back in 10 days. And hopefully he'll be more polite to whoever he flamed. I'll be at least semi-glad to see him back. If anybody replies to my post, I'm heading up to Sacramento for Mother's Day so I won't be back online until Monday. I'll catch up then.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (May 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> *"avoiding confrontation does not make you tough, it makes you chicken"  *



Is this what you really wanted to say?


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## thekuntawman (May 10, 2003)

renegade,

i call that teachers who avoid anyone who questions what they do, are cowards. these are people who will stay in their little group, and never go around any teachers or other martial artist who thinks they have a better technique or just another philosophy.

even online, somebody can be a chicken". one example might be if you are a jkd/kali person, you only go to jkd websites. you only hang around other jkd teachers. you never go around plain filipino martial artists, and definitely you dont go to tournaments. maybe when others are sparring in your presence, you might stay away from the ones who are sparring, in case someone invites you to join them.

i have seen many martial artist who will quit a school that practices sparring. but they like to hang around the same group of people like themselves who like to "bang sticks", not really "cross sticks". they all think alike, they like to talk about the same things and say how effective there martial arts is. and when someone says a different philosophy to what they believe in, they have company to back them up.

now we all hang around people that we like, but some of us like to "prove our point", even in a friendly way. but the "chickens" i am talking about avoid that, they will just want to be as comfortable as they can be, and hang around a bunch of "yes men". this way, they can continue to look tough, and have people who can "attest to my skill level", as another person has said before....this is why i say, your fighting reputation does not come from your friends, but your opponents.


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## tshadowchaser (May 10, 2003)

Watching the way this thread is headed may I interject a few comments.
 Kaith said it all as far as the forum/board is concerned. He explained himslef verry well.
 I am getting the feeling that unstated challanges are floating aroud in this thread. If I am correct please take it to email. Dont ask what I'm talking about . If you know you know if not I may have been mistaken.
 When I was younger I thought nothing of fighting or sparring with anyone who wanted to see what I knew. The fights where brutal the sparring fun. Did it prove anything ,maybe-maybe not.
I survived and I guess that said something. I learned something each time and that was benificial.
 ON  being respectful to tohers: We all have our belifes and feeling on many subjects. To disscuss them with others is good, to demean someone for their opions is wrong. We all agree to sometimes disagree when we come to this forum. We agree to do it in a polite manner.


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## moromoro (May 20, 2003)

Kuntawman thanks for the support...


yes i believe i was suspended for my views on how the FMA are in the US and the western world in general , it is turning in to a MCDojo .

also i was suppose to be suspended until the 19th the bastards on the board didnt reactivate my account until the 20th...

PEOPLE ARE SCARED OF SPARRING BECAUSE OF ONE THING<<<<<<

THEY CANT FIGHT FOR S**T


thanks

terry


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## Cebu West (May 20, 2003)

Maybe you were suspended for your attitude in general.
It is such a joy to have you back.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *Kuntawman thanks for the support...
> 
> 
> ...



Terry, 
  I addressed why you were suspended.  If you think otherwise, thats your perogative.  As to us being "bastards", its called a human mistake, and us having lives....guess that doesn't happen where everyone is perfect and ordered where you are huh?

Glad to see you're back...its like you never left......


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## Cruentus (May 20, 2003)

You two are like the John Kreese and and Mike Barnes from Karate Kid Part III....

*Kuntawman* :


> avoiding confrontation does not make you tough, it makes you chicken ...... if we are still talking about fighting art, IS about how many people can i beat up. if you want personal improvement, go to tae bo or oprah......



OK....Kuntawman.....you can be John Kreese. Your almost there, now all you have to do is throw in "Here at Cobra Kai Dojo, we have NOOOO MERCY!"

MoroMoro are your ready for your movie debut....?

*Moromoro* 


> PEOPLE ARE SCARED OF SPARRING BECAUSE OF ONE THING<<<<<<
> 
> THEY CANT FIGHT FOR S**T



Just like Mike Barnes from part III. Now all you have to do is yell at people when there down on the mat....."You suck, Daniel! Your Karate Sucks! Your Teacher Sucks! Your Nothin'! Your......"

Now we just need to find someone to play Terry Silver (the pony tailed guy) and our remake of this classic film we be complete.

Hey...Ya-know what would be fun? If you are ever in the states, moromoro, then we can have ourselves a little tournament. I'll be Daniel LaRusso, except I'm the version who reps. at 350 lbs. on the bench, and 600 lbs. on the squats, so I might be a little "heftier." I just need to get permission from Miyagi-Renegade to fight, and we'll be all set.

We'll "play," you'll cry, and then afterwards we can remake another classic film "L.A. Confidential," and I'll be Patchett, and you and Kuntawman can be my whores.

We'll see how bad "american fighters" are then.

Can't wait for you drop by....

Sincerely,

Paul (Danial-San) Janulis:lol:


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## Jill666 (May 20, 2003)

:wavey: 

Can I watch?

(I'd ask to ref, but being a girl, and as such completely unable to know good fighting, I'm sure I wouldn't be allowed :shrug:  ).

Jeez, and I never even noticed Moro was gone in the first place.:rofl:


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## Cruentus (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jill666 _
> *:wavey:
> 
> Can I watch?
> ...



Jill...I'm sure we could find a part for you!

I would say that you could be Jessica (Daniel's Girlfriend from part III), but then I would risk casteration by my significant other. You could be Mrs. LaRusso, except given our age gap, you would have had to have birthed me at age 8. Now I know stranger things have happened....but lets see about alternatives....

Ah-hA! If you put on a fake mustache, wore the black and white stripes, and styled your hair like a middle aged bald man, you could be the ref! I'm sure with the hair-do and mustache we would all over-look the fact that your a girl. 

Oh...And don't worry about not knowing about good fighting....your an american, just like me, so that's to be expected. Everyone knows that americans can't fight anyways. We all train at "McDojo's" with Sensei Hamburgler and Grande-Tuhon Ronald.


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## Cruentus (May 20, 2003)

I stand corrected! Your right Jill, you double suck at fighting because your an american, _and_ your a girl!

I'm just american, so I just suck.


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## Jill666 (May 20, 2003)

I should give up now, and get back in the kitchen.

Oh- I forgot! I don't give a $h!t what certain people think.  
So I'll be there. And, WWE style, I will endeavor to be completely fair and impartial.


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## Master of Blades (May 20, 2003)

Ya gotta love Moromoro man! First post back and you show exactly why you were banned in the first place! Amazing.....Still Jill and Paul, I think your teasing and very small Lion there by dangling Meat in front of you  


But you know what the cool thing is.......I'm not a woman OR American......So I DONT SUCK! :rofl:

Oh and Jill, while your in the Kitchen you couldnt make me a Cheese Sandwhich could you.....I'm STARVING!


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## Jill666 (May 20, 2003)

I'm cooking steak- make your own damn cheese sandwich.


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## Master of Blades (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jill666 _
> *I'm cooking steak- make your own damn cheese sandwich. *




I'll have mine well done


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## John J (May 20, 2003)

> I'm the version who reps. at 350 lbs. on the bench, and 600 lbs. on the squats, so I might be a little "heftier."



Assuming you are serious, that is quite impressive. However, "overall strength" does not hold up well when it comes to weapons fighting! You may, however, have an edge fighting empty-hands with more incompetent / inexperienced fighters.

This topic is getting way out of hand! I am not siding with moromoro or thekuntawman but I do believe their perspective on some of the training, preservation and promotion of the FMA in the States is on the money. Like everyone else, Filipinos are proud and there is just so much B.S. out there, that it's become outright disrespectful.  

I am Filipino-American, let's not make this a Filipino vs. American issue. Let's be open to the criticism (however harsh it can be at times). We don't have to agree but should welcome it.    

Yours in the Arts,

John


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## Rich Parsons (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by John J _
> *. . .
> I am Filipino-American, let's not make this a Filipino vs. American issue. Let's be open to the criticism (however harsh it can be at times). We don't have to agree but should welcome it.
> 
> ...



John,

I agree with this. Criticism should be allowed.

Insults should not be.

If Terry was in an American Bar and said half of what he has said
the women would have 'B****' slapped him. Many of the guys would also have taken him out. You do not need to be a trained martial artist to be a good fighter.

So, since criticism is to be open it should be open both ways.

In my opinion, even though I have tried to communicate, and help inform or guide another FMA practitioner, I believe the following.

He that does protest to much has the most to worry.

He that screams the loudest is only screaming to cover his own fear and weakness.

He that speaks without knowledge and only from their own preconceived perceptions deserve the fate the get. Terry, has suggested he might promote others in the land of OZ and also here in the USA and maybe elsewhere. People will not pay money to see anyone associated with his name. He might get people to show up and see if he is really all that he thinks he is.

It is easier to catch a bee with a flower then it is with a rock thrown at it. 

Yet, I know I am an American who studies an art not of his heritage. I guess I will just move on since I will never be able to learn any art, sufficiently unless it is truely an American Art. Oh Wait, all that get created are influenced from elsewhere and are attacked for not being pure or original. Maybe I should go buy a gun and each the world how I feel at the end of my barrel? I think not, just not my personality. 

I apologize for upsetting peeple, and in my own way I think I have ot insulted but actually given some positive criticism and or feedback.

Have a nice day
:asian:


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## KenpoDragon (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *You two are like the John Kreese and and Mike Barnes from Karate Kid Part III....
> 
> Kuntawman :
> ...



Can I play Terry Silver???? I got a pony tail!!!! PLEASE PLEASE!!!!! I want to be a bad guy too!!!!!!


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## John J (May 20, 2003)

> If Terry was in an American Bar and said half of what he has said



I must have missed all the insults. I have not seen anything directed towards any one member nor did I see any derogatory remarks towards Americans. The posts were aimed at pointing out the poor gimmicks used by the FMA community in the U.S. This community includes Filipinos as well.

IMO...the Moderators of this forum should also be just as quick to mitigate the sarcastic tone plaguing this thread. It is just not productive or beneficial to anyone.


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## arnisador (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by John J _
> *IMO...the Moderators of this forum should also be just as quick to mitigate the sarcastic tone plaguing this thread. It is just not productive or beneficial to anyone. *



I concur.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Cruentus (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by John J _
> *Assuming you are serious, that is quite impressive. However, "overall strength" does not hold up well when it comes to weapons fighting! You may, however, have an edge fighting empty-hands with more incompetent / inexperienced fighters.
> 
> This topic is getting way out of hand! I am not siding with moromoro or thekuntawman but I do believe their perspective on some of the training, preservation and promotion of the FMA in the States is on the money. Like everyone else, Filipinos are proud and there is just so much B.S. out there, that it's become outright disrespectful.
> ...



Thanks for the complement; and yes, my little strength "feats" are true.

Also, I definatily agree with you in that strength matters very little when weapons are involved, and strength or size never insures a victory.

I'm just trying to make light of a situation, but the real deal is that I think that moromoro is full of BS. His hasty generalizations about americans and women are ridicules, and downright offensive and racist. His assumption that Filipino Martial Arts in the US and in america are "all turning into Mcdojos" is about as stupid as me saying "all people in Ireland are alcaholics", or "all Germans have Nazi tendencies" or "all asians are good at math" or "all muslims support suicide bombers." DID I MAKE MY POINT MOROMORO! I could think of countless other assumptions that are equally as idiotic, but that's the point! Assumptions like what he makes ARE idiotic, and he needs to quite. I have a hard time believing that he really is that stupid. Since I don't believe that he is, I just wish he would think before he types. It's one thing to critique a method, or to be opinionated. I can respect opinions. He could critique, for instance, instructors who are more interested in money then quality students, for example. But to make assumptions in the manner that he does has got to stop.

I'll also take the bet that he is a lot braver behind the keyboard then in person, and I very much wish that I could be the one to prove it. Since I can't due to location and distance limitations, I'll instead have to endure reading his inexperienced Bulljunk until he gets suspended or banned again.

Kuntawman is another F-in' one. Sometimes what he says has value. Other times he goes on these rants about  how FMA is somehow all about tournament fighting. It's about combat, for crying out loud. I can enjoy a healthy competition, but he takes the idea way too damn far. He also likes to produce these overly lengthy posts critiquing all other instructors in the "U.S.," to say that if they don't do tournament fighting, that their skill is somehow invalid. Any reasonable person, martial artist or non-martial artist knows that this isn't necissarily true. And to say that FMA is all about how many people you can beat up is also completely ridicules. Sure, MA all boils down to combat, but it's about improving your abilities as a "warrior" and carrying this into your everyday life, not just about beating people up.

These are just opinions that Kuntawman has that I disagree with, but what took the cake was on the Modern Arnis Forum when the implication was made that a white person would never be a grandmaster to the level of a Filipino. This, I'm afraid, is racist as well. I respect and embrace Filipino culture, but I don't believe that I am limited in my abilities because of the color of my skin. Sorry. Again, I don't want to turn it into an "american vs. Filipino" thing; it isn't about that. I just wish that these two would cut their S**T; it doesn't impress ot help anyone.

So, John, I was only kidding around and making light the situation. I'm sure they will barrade me with posts on how wrong I am now that my true feelings on the matter have been explained. Whatever. I don't care. My time is money, and I can't be spending it on stupid arguements with people who insist on acting stupid. I like criticism that is constructive and useful; that is how we all learn. I believe that you (John) have made some very useful posts here. If we want to talk about how FMA are exploited in the states constructively, I would welcome that conversation. I, however, do not think that moromoro or Kuntawman have been constructive at all regarding this issue or regarding this thread up until this point.

So...when this conversation becomes constructive, I'll be glad to contribute in a bit more of a useful manner. I think that for now, however, I am done with this thread for a while.

PAUL


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## Cruentus (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDragon _
> *Can I play Terry Silver???? I got a pony tail!!!! PLEASE PLEASE!!!!! I want to be a bad guy too!!!!!! *



Maybe this is inappropriate after my last post, but....AHHHH YEEEAAAAA! We have ourselves a Terry Silver canidate! my desire to live out Karate Kid part III is almost complete!:rofl:


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## Rich Parsons (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by John J _
> *I must have missed all the insults. I have not seen anything directed towards any one member nor did I see any derogatory remarks towards Americans. The posts were aimed at pointing out the poor gimmicks used by the FMA community in the U.S. This community includes Filipinos as well.
> 
> IMO...the Moderators of this forum should also be just as quick to mitigate the sarcastic tone plaguing this thread. It is just not productive or beneficial to anyone. *




John,

I apologize if you took what I said wrong.

Just browse around or do a search in the FMA and Modern Arnis Forums. I could be wrong, I have been before, yet ???

As to the sarcastic comments, HMMM, it is ok for someone to be critical, yet not for others to give the same type of feedback? Not trying to start anything here, just seriously asking for your tolerance.

:asian:


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## moromoro (May 21, 2003)

> I am not siding with moromoro or thekuntawman but I do believe their perspective on some of the training, preservation and promotion of the FMA in the States is on the money. Like everyone else, Filipinos are proud and there is just so much B.S. out there, that it's become outright disrespectful.



it is becomming downright disrespectfull!


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## moromoro (May 21, 2003)

> quote: I'm the version who reps. at 350 lbs. on the bench, and 600 lbs. on the squats, so I might be a little "heftier."



man this proves how little you know about eskrima, beign stronger and bigger doesnt mean much in "binunalay".

like john said, you may have the advantage against a smaller UNSKILLED fighter in a empty hands match, i hope your comming in to that empty hands fight with more than your empty hands knowledge on the FMA or you will be creamed........

man 350 on the bench aint ****......

thank you 

terry...


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## moromoro (May 21, 2003)

> He that speaks without knowledge and only from their own preconceived perceptions deserve the fate the get. Terry, has suggested he might promote others in the land of OZ and also here in the USA and maybe elsewhere. People will not pay money to see anyone associated with his name. He might get people to show up and see if he is really all that he thinks he is.


hi rich
where the **** did you get this from. all that i have been saying is that i do not like the way most people are handling the FMA in the western world in general.....
Also there are some great GM's out there with plenty of history and fights to back it up.... man i have a open door policy on challenges here and in cebu...... navaro system............
so theres no problem about fighting.....

also your right rich you dont have to be trained in the martial arts to be a good fighter... just go to some of the nightclubs in zamboanga city, and also here in sydney, melbourne brisbane the entire east coast of australia, some of the very best fighters are the ones not formally taught in the Martial arts.......


thanks rich

terry


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## John J (May 21, 2003)

> I apologize if you took what I said wrong.



No need to apologize. However, I don't think I misunderstood what you said at all. Your tone clearly conveys your personal thoughts.



> Just browse around or do a search in the FMA and Modern Arnis Forums. I could be wrong, I have been before, yet ???



I'm pretty sure I've seen most if not all of moromoro's posts. I do agree that there could have been a better choice of words on some discussions but he does raise some valid points that many fear (because of politics or something else) to do. 



> As to the sarcastic comments, HMMM, it is ok for someone to be critical, yet not for others to give the same type of feedback? Not trying to start anything here, just seriously asking for your tolerance.



It is pretty clear that his criticism is of personal belief NOT sarcasm. I do believe feedback is very important but not when it's nonsense. There has to be a better way to make light of this discussion instead of auditioning for the roles in the next "karate kid" movie


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## Bob Hubbard (May 21, 2003)

There is a difference in saying the following:

"I think your are wrong" or "I disagree with that"

and

"Are you ****ing stupid?" or "You are full of ****"


The former are the prefered...the later, depending on the remainder of the post being examined, will get you into trouble here.  The key is 'respect'.

I personally take great offence to being labled a "Bastard".  My parents were married since before I was conceived and remained that way for several years after my birth.  I doubt highly that Terrys got proof otherwise.

We are within out rights to permanently boot his behind off this board due to his 1st and 2nd posts upon his return.  We didn't.

Terry, heres a few friendly hints:
1 - Learn some respect on line.
2 - Drop the sexist and racist crap.
3 - Drop the elitist attitude. 
4 - Learn some Netiquette.  (This goes for a few folks)http://www.fau.edu/netiquette/net/dis.html
Heres a few tips: 





> - Typing mail messages all in upper case (Typically considered SHOUTING!)
> 
> - Resist the temptation to "flame" others on the list. Remember that these discussions are "public" and meant for constructive exchanges. Treat the others on the list as you would want them to treat you.
> 
> - Resist the temptation to "flame" others on the list. Remember that these discussions are "public" and meant for constructive exchanges. Treat the others on the list as you would want them to treat you.




Your art aint no better than anyone elses art. Online, we cant prove names, gender, locations, ranks or skills.  The likelyhood of someone in Hawaii virtually kicking the *** of someone in Berlin is about the same as the return to power of Alexander the Great. 

Terry, and many others got suspended for breaking this forums rules.  My suggestion to others is, don't be the next person suspended....

We will boot people for being disrespectful, disruptive, or who otherwise violate our rules.  You are welcome to your own opinions on things, however, when expressing them, I recomend some care be taken.  Especially if they are of the bigoted, racist, sexist or other like variety.

Good day.
:asian:


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## Master of Blades (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by John J _
> *
> 
> IMO...the Moderators of this forum should also be just as quick to mitigate the sarcastic tone plaguing this thread. It is just not productive or beneficial to anyone. *



Sarcastic tone! Where!


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## Cruentus (May 21, 2003)

> moromoro: man 350 on the bench aint ****......



Hey...thats reps. Also...that's pounds, son, not cans of fosters, or whatever they use as a unit of measure in Australia. And I know that when you said ****, you ment for us to fill in the blanks with "....anything I could ever do, damn Paul, U da man! 



> John J: I do believe feedback is very important but not when it's nonsense. There has to be a better way to make light of this discussion instead of auditioning for the roles in the next "karate kid" movie



O.K.....how about "The Quest" with Jean Claude Van Damn. There aren't ANY stereotypes in that movie what-so-ever.  :rofl: 



> John J: I'm pretty sure I've seen most if not all of moromoro's posts. I do agree that there could have been a better choice of words on some discussions but he does raise some valid points that many fear (because of politics or something else) to do.



This is the real reason I posted again, not just to throw around crap. I'm suprised that you honestly believe that moromoro has made some valid points. I don't read MT as religiously as I used too, but all I have seen from him so far when he trys to make an arguement is overgeneralized and insulting statements, not valid points. I remember a few posts that _could_ have resulted in  a valid point, but then he overshadows these _potentially valid_ statements with so much other trash talk that it becomes difficult for the reader to gather any validity in what he says. With the manner in which he posts, readers in the MT community can't decifer if his statements are an attempt to valid points, or just an exploitation of an opportunity to take a cheap shot at someone, or to overgeneralize, or to start some arguement.

So when he makes his little statements of "controversey," I don't think that he is being unique, or on some sort of cutting edge. No one is reading him and thinking, "Wow, this guy just tells it like it is, and he isn't afraid of the politics or controversy; he must be real friggin' special!" People who read him just think that he's a dick.

That, in a nutshell I think, is the problem myself and others have with him. What do you think John J? Am I correct or not? If I am mistaken here, please direct me to a thread where he has made a valid point that wasn't overshadowed by an insult, an overgeneralization, or a slam, or an overall arrogent attitude, or something of the kind. I will be happy to look at the thread, admit fault, and give credit where credit is due.

So, John J, tell me what you think. I do value your opinion.

Thanks,
PAUL
:asian:


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## Master of Blades (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *
> So when he makes his little statements of "controversey," I don't think that he is being unique, or on some sort of cutting edge. No one is reading him and thinking, "Wow, this guy just tells it like it is, and he isn't afraid of the politics or controversy; he must be real friggin' special!" People who read him just think that he's a dick.
> 
> ...



I concur!  

I was just thinking that......cept put an *a* inbetween the be and the real and change Special to another S word  

In all seriousness though I was just about to ask for a part in the Martial Talk Production of Karate Kid 7


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## Rich Parsons (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by John J _
> *No need to apologize. However, I don't think I misunderstood what you said at all. Your tone clearly conveys your personal thoughts.
> *



And the Tone and Attitude of Terry does not convey his thoughts toward me. Many people have called me and e-mailed me to stop trying to communicate with him. In our first discusson I was nothing to him, not only being from the WEST and being non-filipino, until he found out who I train with on a weekly basis.




> _Originally posted by John J _
> *I'm pretty sure I've seen most if not all of moromoro's posts. I do agree that there could have been a better choice of words on some discussions but he does raise some valid points that many fear (because of politics or something else) to do.
> *



He does raise some valid posts, yet I do also. Why does he have to be Rude? Why does he have to insult? Why does he have to have the,  "I am better because I am Filipino", attitude? I agree that people in the PI do have knowledge to offer. I agree that promoting and advertising the names and systems of these GM's is good. Yet, I think I have been insulted once too many times. If I said all Filipino's are short and their for not able to fight, Because I am 6'3" or 191 cms. This is pure crazy talk. They fact that women cannot fight because they have estrogen. This is insulting to half the population in the world. It might be his opinion, and he is entitled to it. He could have easily said in my travels I have never meet a women that could knock me out in a fight. Yes his word choice does leave one to wonder. Yet, sometimes he uses the English Language just a little well, to say it is all due to the language barrier.

As to Politics, you can have them. Ask you question, and then move on. IF you have a problem and want to get in someone's face take it e-mail or contact them or go see them, not everyone has to go to the PI for a challenge fight.

Just my opinion, I know it wrong, because people tell me it is. Yet I try to express it in a civilized adult manner.



> _Originally posted by John J _
> *It is pretty clear that his criticism is of personal belief NOT sarcasm. I do believe feedback is very important but not when it's nonsense. There has to be a better way to make light of this discussion instead of auditioning for the roles in the next "karate kid" movie  *



Ok the Movie reference, aside, it would be alright for me to call you stupid or ignorant or to tell you training is worthless, because of xyz reason?? I do nto think so. I could say, I might have a better way to train for you, I know it is better for me.

John J Have a nice day, and thank you for the discussion


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## Rich Parsons (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *hi rich
> where the **** did you get this from. all that i have been saying is that i do not like the way most people are handling the FMA in the western world in general.....
> Also there are some great GM's out there with plenty of history and fights to back it up.... man i have a open door policy on challenges here and in cebu...... navaro system............
> ...



Terry,

This post is your best post in a long time if not for all time. You did not insult, you did not attack, you asked me a question. A fair Question.

To answer you, I got this from our conversations and your posts, and your attitude in general across all the data points I have. This is my opinion, like I Said. I do not think people will be interested in supporting you or any of your events. They might show up for your first one to see who has made all the talk. I understand you are ready to accept a challenge, and I respect that. I used to accept all comers. I used to get weapons pulled on me when I was unarmed. I used to be out numbered sometimes by 6+ to 1. I got tired of putting people into the hospital. I got tired of the police reports.  I got tired of always looking over my shoulder, and taking the long way home to make sure no one followed me. I got tired of being cut and shot at. It all made no sense to me. The money for lawyer, the time in police stations and in court, and away from a job, the stress, it was all not worth it, to me. 

Terry, I do not wish you ill. I do wish you would recognize the cultural differences and respect them. I would not go to the PI and expect everyone to act like other Americans.

Ask your questions, just try to think about how you say it is all.

:asian:


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## Cebu West (May 22, 2003)

just some MT data

moromoro signed on to MT in March of 03. So it's been at best 11 weeks now and he has made 739 posts in that short period of time AND was susspended for part of that time. It looks like all he really does is sit in front of the computer and type insults. Get a life.


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## moromoro (May 22, 2003)

hi your the 1st degree MA practitioner, how about training somemore to get your level up???

just a suggestion 
also i have reported your reply because iam sick of the insults by you and others, i yas suspended for insulting a member and i used lighter tone than you i hope the moderators suspend you....

also most of my reply have been with  smiles in the locker room section about 500 times.......

iam sick of people like you blatanly insulting members of this forum with out something better to say...........

thanks

terry


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## Cruentus (May 22, 2003)

moromoro...

1. I wouldn't judge people by their "rank" or "status;" if anything you'll save face if someday you get whipped by someone with no rank at all. I have met 1st degree's and below who have better fighting skills then some 5th degree's and above. Hell, in Balintawak I have "no rank" because Manong Ted Buot prides himself on not giving out rank or certificates. Cebu West might very well be one of those with a low rank, but who could whip your @$$. Ya never know.

2. I understand you not appreciating the insult, but I feel that you have brought it on yourself. I think that is probably the 1st insult that I probably have ever read from Cebu West; he usually has nothing but positive things to contribute. You, on the other hand, have been so negative on MT that people don't know when to take you seriously. As far as I understand, people get suspended for _repeatedly_ violating the rules, which you repeatedly do. People aren't suspended for 1 insult, as in Cebu Wests case.

3. For someone who likes to repeatedly insult people, and then challange them, that was kind of "tattle-tale-ish," don't you think? Do you go run and tell Mr. Navarro, or your mom if you are lossing a fight? Sorry, there goes my sarcasm again. 

Nobody likes a tattle-tale, anyways. 
:shrug:

PAUL


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## John J (May 22, 2003)

> I'm suprised that you honestly believe that moromoro has made some valid points.



My beliefs are based on the discussions on the FMA - General forum and some on the Modern Arnis forum. From what I've seen, not only does he have valid points he has addressed topics of much needed attention.   



> So when he makes his little statements of "controversey," I don't think that he is being unique, or on some sort of cutting edge. No one is reading him and thinking, "Wow, this guy just tells it like it is, and he isn't afraid of the politics or controversy; he must be real friggin' special!" People who read him just think that he's a dick.



Sorry, but I don't admire him either, for any of the reasons you wrote. I do however, admire his honesty to speak out on all the B.S. and respect his views as a Filipino practitioner back home. I also don't consider him a dick.



> If I am mistaken here, please direct me to a thread where he has made a valid point that wasn't overshadowed by an insult, an overgeneralization, or a slam, or an overall arrogent attitude, or something of the kind.



Again, I must reiterate that I couldn't care less about his strong approach. What matters to me most are the issues he presents. 



> So, John J, tell me what you think. I do value your opinion.



Could it simply be that non-Filipinos do NOT see the negativity and disrespect of such issues towards our culture, heritage & history in the same way as we do? I say this simply for further reasoning.

I was born here and consider myself just as American as any of you, maybe even more. However, I am Filipino and it didn't take me long to realize that the arts are bastardized by the FMA "community" here. Personally speaking, I'd like to see more Filipinos practicing and showing their pride for these arts.


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## Cruentus (May 22, 2003)

Thank you for your reply and your opinion. However, in what constructive manner has moromoro brought up ANY important issue? I asked for some specific examples so I could stand corrected here. Thusfar, I haven't seen any. If you can bring one to my attention, I think that this entire forum would be extremely happy to look.

You see, I don't mind a strong approach. His approach isn't "strong," though. I don't mind an approach that's like a rot wilers bark; loud, strong, and to the point. His approach is more like a yipping chawawa.



> Could it simply be that non-Filipinos do NOT see the negativity and disrespect of such issues towards our culture, heritage & history in the same way as we do?



Your reasoning that you used was that as a Filipino American it didn't take you long to figure out that the FMA community here in the U.S. has bastardized the FMA. I am not in disagreement with you there, but let's examine why this has happened. The reason this has happened is mainly due to instructors, Filipino as well as American, who are more concerned over profit then quality martial arts. And yes, many non-filipinos might not recognize the difference due to a culture gap. The question is, though, is it their fault? These non-filipinos who simply just don't know better, should they be blamed and chastized for exploiting Filipino culture? I would think not. If your to blame anyone, blame these american AS WELL AS FILIPINO instructors who know better, but who are focused on trying to make a buck. They are the exploiters.

So what's the solution? It sure as hell isn't slamming on any non-filipino who is dilegently trying to learn FMA. It isn't broadly chastizing an entire "community" either. I would conject that it would be better to try to educate people on the proper aspects of your culture instead. Get those who want to honestly want to learn true FMA together, regardless of background, training level, or ethnicity, to team up against exploiters. Now THERES a solution. 

Anyways, with moromoro I haven't yet seen an attempt to educate, or come up with a constructive solution; only an attempt to slam others so he can feel superior. He would have a hell of a time educationg anyone at this point anyways, because outside of 2 people (you and Kuntawman) everyone else thinks moromoro is a dick. In fact, I wish I could start a thread with a poll asking everyone if they think he is a dick or not, so you can see that I am not alone on this one, but I have a funny feeling the mods. wouldn't find that one to be very approriate. Bottom line: if moromoro wants people to look at him differently at this point, it require quite a bit, such as a new thread with a public apology, and a sincere effort to change his behavior. I doubt that I'll see that in my lifetime. What I can't believe is that you actually still support him and what he says. Regardless, you are entitled to your opinion.

In my opinion, though, there is nothing wrong with pointing out problems, especially if it is an attempt to find a solution. There is something seriously wrong with running your mouth so much and with such a bad attitude that no one can really decifer what the problem is in the first place. This is something maybe you should think about.   

PAUL


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## Jill666 (May 22, 2003)

Once again Paul finds a nice way to phrase what I would otherwise put in another way.

Moromoro has repeatedly phrased things in such an atagonistic manner that the message gets lost. And his attitude toward women is poor, at best. That is why I do not read anything he has to say.


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## Cebu West (May 22, 2003)

Has anyone noticed the degradation of the Filipino boards on Martial Talk? Since the return of moromoro there has been nothing but negative posts and insults. He is dragging us all down to his level. We need to get back to a forum we can be proud of. I am as guilty as everyone else and even as I write this I am tempted to T off on this guy. I was full contact, no pad fighting before this guy was even born and I'm letting him get under my skin. So I will stop that be ignoring any post that moromoro makes in the future. If you can't say anything nice, say nothing at all. Never in my life have I really disliked someone without knowing them, but I guess there are exceptions to everything. And since I've already been warned by the moderators for using those nice red smileys with the raised finger I'll stop here.

SAL


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## thekuntawman (May 23, 2003)

when it comes to bastardizing the philippine arts, i do blame the filipino teachers, rather than the students. i think the students dont know any better, so if there first introduction to the FMA is from the commercial style arnis/eskrima/KALI, then that is what they swear by. nobody wants to hear that the method he is learning is less than the best.

but at the same time, i blame people for rejecting the truth when they hear it, including the students. how many times did people fight it when they hear that there is no "kali" in the philippines, and nobody does kinomutai, pananjakman etc. they even get mad when they hear you say it. i stopped posting in the bladeforums because i was talking to brick walls. every time i said what was false in the FMA they cried that i am always trying to discredit someone or i am rude.

i would be rude if i let people go around talking about something they dont know about. am i suppose to act like i am talking to a small child and say it softly? if we are all men (and women) grown, then why get so upset when somebodys opinion is different from your own.

about moromoro, he talks like i did when i first came to the forums. nothing wrong with that. some people are just blunt to the point. its actually laughable how hurt people get when you speak your mind. if you want to disagree, then fine. if you want to get all pissed off and YELL....fine! arent we all adults?

anyway i forgot my point, so when i think about it i will post again.


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## John J (May 23, 2003)

> The question is, though, is it their fault? These non-filipinos who simply just don't know better, should they be blamed and chastized for exploiting Filipino culture? I would think not. If your to blame anyone, blame these american AS WELL AS FILIPINO instructors who know better, but who are focused on trying to make a buck. They are the exploiters.



First let me say that I am NOT blaming non-Filipinos. Before allowing your personal anger to insinuate otherwise, read carefully. Blame is a strong word that is why I said, " do NOT see...in the same way as we do and to find further reason?". It was just something else to consider PERIOD! I absolutely agree with you that Filipino instructors should know better and if anyone is to be blamed, it is them. 

This is the problem with "written" dialogue, it may transfer a  different message or in a tone not intended. I will try to reply with more detail later. 

Right now, I am trying to retreive a rather loooong reply to the other thread. I tried to submit it but because of the expired time, it asked me to login again. After that, I could not retreive it. Can anybody help or do I have to start all over again?

Thanks.


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## Guro Harold (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by John J _
> *Right now, I am trying to retreive a rather loooong reply to the other thread. I tried to submit it but because of the expired time, it asked me to login again. After that, I could not retreive it. Can anybody help or do I have to start all over again?
> 
> Thanks. *



Yeah John J,

This has happened to me before.  If you think that the post is going to long or if you might have to add a picture, then I suggest using and saving in WordPad first.

Best regards,

Palusut


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## Cruentus (May 23, 2003)

Wow, man, that sucks about losing your post. I have had that happend before, and I was never able to retrieve mine. A suggestion for next time would be if you know that you are going to write a really long one, write it in "word" first, then cut and paste it on MT. This will save you from losing anything.

Good luck with that.

More later!


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## Cruentus (May 23, 2003)

LOL Palusut was like 2 saconds faster then me with his post!


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## Cruentus (May 23, 2003)

> This is the problem with "written" dialogue, it may transfer a different message or in a tone not intended.



I totally agree! There is a serious problem with the written word, especially on the net. For instance, I'm not angry, and I haven't been emotionally upset or angry in any of my posts this week. The manner in which I post may not convey this message sometimes, however.

2nd of all, I do not think that you are blaming non-filipinos for some of the problems within FMA community. I do not think that you are the one "slamming" non-filipinos who are trying to diligently learn FMA. However, thusfar your buddy moromoro HAS been slamming others, particularly non-filipinos, since he started posting here on MT. You had said that you are in agreement with what he has to say. So has Kuntawman. When you two say that you support what he says, not only do you justify his behavior and give him more "fuel" to act like a child, it CAN sound like you also would like to see non-filipinos get the slam, or the blame for some of the "explotations" that have occured.

Now, I know that you are more logical then to believe that it is "americans" who are to blame. I know that Kuntawman is also more logical then that as well. I hope that you guys understand that I DO NOT think that some "american" students and teachers ARENT to blame either. Many american students and teachers, as Kuntawman put it, "reject the truth when they hear it," or outright decide that exploitation is a good way to boost their ego's and make a buck, so they go for it. And I also think that you are correct to say that non-filipinos might not notice when Filipino culture is being exploited, and might not be insulted. This would make sense.

Regardless, here are my points:

1. It isn't about race, it's about people. There are people out there who are going to exploit FMA for profit, pseudo-fame, or what have you. These people are red, yellow, black, white, green.....and every color, race, creed, and religion imaginable. There is no one "culture" or "race" to blame. There are also many people, Filipino's and non-Filipino's alike, who don't want to see FMA exploited. It should be those people against the exploiters, and race shouldn't be an issue. The minute someone makes a generalization such as "all 'american' FMA are turning into Mcdojo's," a generalization has just been made that turns it into a race issue. "The message" needs to be carefully thought about before we post something. This also needs to be carefully thought about before we support someone elses post, or it will look like we are supporting a message that we really do not agree with.

2. I've said this once, but it's worth repeating. There is a difference between being "blunt" or "not afraid to speak your mind" and being an insulting, overgeneralizing, jerk. The prevailing attitude I keep hearing from you and Kuntawman is "moromoro just speaks his mind, and there is nothing wrong with that." Nobody would disagree with the notion that it is good to speak you mind. There is a difference between speaking your mind and slamming and insulting people so badly that know one can decifer what your point is in the first place. Moromoro hasn't been meerly speaking his mind up until this point; he has been overgeneralizing, slamming, insulting, and angering other people on this board. And guess what.....there IS something SERIOUSLY wrong with that, and there is something VERY wrong with supporting that.

John J, I like what you have to say on this board. I just think that when you decide to back someone up, you had better seriously know why your deciding to back them, and what message your sending too others by deciding to do so.

respectfully,
PAUL
:asian:


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## dearnis.com (May 23, 2003)

the kuntawman wrote "about moromoro, he talks like i did when i first came to the forums. nothing wrong with that. some people are just blunt to the point. its actually laughable how hurt people get when you speak your mind. if you want to disagree, then fine. "

ummmm...  Not really.  While you have certainly stirred the pot a few times your attacks were against things, not people, and if you did anything "wrong" it was only stating your case so firmly that people did not give a fair listen.
I have never seen you, on this list or others, be deliberately rude or ignorant to someone you were disagreeing with.


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## arnisador (May 23, 2003)

You may also type in MartialTalk and type CTRL-A, CTRL-C to copy your message before attempting to post it. I too have lost long posts due to network hiccups. We have no fix, regrettably.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## moromoro (May 23, 2003)

well i was trying to find out a way to reply....in a nice manner

firstly i dont believe i have never insulted anyone in this forum who did not deserve it. 

Look at the your pathetic post the guy ask for help in a forum on what to teach his class.... now this is completely unacceptable in any martial arts (maybe not taeBo) 

This is just one example of the bastardization of the FMA in the west...... (dont care about culture dont care about skill just certificates and the amount of students,) its like having an attitude of "great i know plenty of drills i can start a class now".....
(thank god i come from systems with no drills---- per se)

Sorry guys but this is not how it is done back home.....

also i have said in the past that i thought a certain poster was S**t it didnt represent the filipino flag correctly......

In the U.S and the west in general it seems that the FMA are sold.

What i have seen in Martial talk is almost a complete disrespect for the FMA and its varied history and teachers, people on this forum bite at you when you say go to the philippines and practice there....

for all you Modern Arnis practitioners i can guarantee that the level of modern arnis in the philippines is a whole lot better than in the U.S. NOW WHATS YOUR OPINION ON THIS!!!!! 



> with moromoro I haven't yet seen an attempt to educate, or come up with a constructive solution;



now my chance to educate.....

firstly dont disrespect other FMA just because they dont bother to have front page ad's on blackbelt magazine or the like..... advertising doesnt mean it is better...

Dont train for the rank (this is very evident in japanese ranking structure FMA- which i believe has no place in traditional FMA) train for the skill....

If you can train with the source or his closest representative...
no point learning with an instructor given by another down the line instructor..

also show some bloody respect for our culture, if you want to become an eskrimador one of the prerequesite would at least be to go to the philippines and do some training there (cross training)

also the FMA are larger than techniques but most of you especially the westreners will never learn other aspects of it such as oracion , kulam and other spiritual aspects of it.......... dont start to cry why not firstly you dont know the language, you dont know the culture.....

hope this will enlighten you

thanks

terry


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## arnisador (May 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *firstly i dont believe i have never insulted anyone in this forum who did not deserve it. *



I'd like to point out that insults are unwelcome here whether they are deserved or not. This very much applies to all parties.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Bob Hubbard (May 24, 2003)

> for all you Modern Arnis practitioners i can guarantee that the level of modern arnis in the philippines is a whole lot better than in the U.S. NOW WHATS YOUR OPINION ON THIS!!!!!



Are we scoring by Belt Rank, pure martial ability, or knowledge of the art?

Belt Rank - 
Highest ranks in the US as given by GM Presas before his death = 6th degree
Highest ranks in the PI as given by GM Presas before his death? I dont know.

Highest current ranks:
US - 7th
PI 8th or 9th.


Pure Martial Ability:
Toss up.  Sparing and tourny don't = combat skills.  Depends.  Got any names?


Knowledge of the art
The US.   GM Presas spent the last 2 decades refining the art here, not in the PI.  The PI Modern Arnis and the US Modern Arnis are 2 seperate but related things.  The PI in the last few decades did not have the constant exposure to Remy refinements and such.  Modern Arnis is an evolving system, and as such, its more recent evolution was done in the US.  If you are scoring this on what Modern Arnis was within the last 5 years of Remys vision for it, the US has teh clear superiority.


Your move.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (May 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *for all you Modern Arnis practitioners i can guarantee that the level of modern arnis in the philippines is a whole lot better than in the U.S. NOW WHATS YOUR OPINION ON THIS!!!!! *



How can you say that? Have you ever seen any Modern Arnis people train in the PI or the states?


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## KenpoDragon (May 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *well i was trying to find out a way to reply....in a nice manner
> 
> firstly i dont believe i have never insulted anyone in this forum who did not deserve it. *


* Well that's your opinion, and your entitled to it.




			Look at the your pathetic post the guy ask for help in a forum on what to teach his class.... now this is completely unacceptable in any martial arts (maybe not taeBo)
		
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 Once again only your opinion. If someone is young and a new teacher, then why not help them and give them some suggestions. Instead of insulting them, you should help them, insulting them only makes you look small.




			This is just one example of the bastardization of the FMA in the west...... (dont care about culture dont care about skill just certificates and the amount of students,) its like having an attitude of "great i know plenty of drills i can start a class now".....
(thank god i come from systems with no drills---- per se)
		
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 Personally my Kali instructor only charged his students $15 a month, that's right $15 a month. He wasn't worried about the money or the amount of students. There was a handfull of students that were loyal, so he took it upon himself to share his knowledge with us. Oh yeah we NEVER received any certificates or belts, just the knowledge in his head. I do agree that TOO MANY styles focus more on belt rank rather than actual knowledge of the art, but that happens with all arts not just Filipino ones.




			Sorry guys but this is not how it is done back home.....
		
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 Unfortunately Moromoro not all of us have the privilege of training where our arts were created. I would love the opportunity to train in the Phillipines, but I can't afford it, neither can a lot of other people.




			also i have said in the past that i thought a certain poster was S**t it didnt represent the filipino flag correctly......

In the U.S and the west in general it seems that the FMA are sold.
		
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 Come on really now, what commercial instructor doesn't charge any money for lessons??? If you are financially set for life well than good for you, but some of us are not. If I was rich I would teach for free, but I'm not, and I have to put food on my table, and a roof over my head.




			What i have seen in Martial talk is almost a complete disrespect for the FMA and its varied history and teachers, people on this forum bite at you when you say go to the philippines and practice there....
		
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 History you say, do your homework the only one disrespecting people around here is you and The Kuntawman. Go to the Phillipines you say, I say send me a ticket, and I'll go.




			for all you Modern Arnis practitioners i can guarantee that the level of modern arnis in the philippines is a whole lot better than in the U.S. NOW WHATS YOUR OPINION ON THIS!!!!!
		
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 You are probably right about this, but once again, a lot of us don't have the opportunity to train over seas. That's like saying that American Judo isn't as good as Japanese Judo, can you prove it???? You would have to challenge and beat all the American guys, for that to be completely accurate. 






			now my chance to educate.....

firstly dont disrespect other FMA just because they dont bother to have front page ad's on blackbelt magazine or the like..... advertising doesnt mean it is better...
		
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 If I'm not mistaken you are the one that's disrespecting other FMA's and the instructors of FMA's.




			Dont train for the rank (this is very evident in japanese ranking structure FMA- which i believe has no place in traditional FMA) train for the skill....
		
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 I completely agree with you on this subject.




			If you can train with the source or his closest representative...
no point learning with an instructor given by another down the line instructor..
		
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 The key word here is "IF", well "IF" I could train with the best then I would, but once again I don't have the money to travel that far. So why not learn an art form if you can't learn from the best...how about to pass down your knowledge??? Should we all just stop teaching or learning if we can't be the best teacher out there. Get real.




			also show some bloody respect for our culture, if you want to become an eskrimador one of the prerequesite would at least be to go to the philippines and do some training there (cross training)
		
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 Once again send me a ticket. 




			also the FMA are larger than techniques but most of you especially the westreners will never learn other aspects of it such as oracion , kulam and other spiritual aspects of it.......... dont start to cry why not firstly you dont know the language, you dont know the culture.....
		
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 I would personally love to learn the other aspects of the FMA's, are you offering to teach all of us Westerners????

:asian:  KenpoDragon*


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## Guro Harold (May 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *Look at the your pathetic post the guy ask for help in a forum on what to teach his class.... now this is completely unacceptable in any martial arts (maybe not taeBo)
> 
> also i have said in the past that i thought a certain poster was S**t it didnt represent the filipino flag correctly......
> ...



MoroMoro,

The interesting thing is that both of those post were dealing with people who were sincerely and humbly seeking knowledge and not to offend.

I can see by your actions that you are neither sincere nor humble.  You are an accusor and judgemental.  Have you added anything positive to the discussions of the Filipino Martial Arts?

TheKuntawMan has strong opinions about things but at least he is striving to communicate.

You are not the savior of the PI way of life, you are only a personal representive of it.  As such,  I wonder does your teachers know how you are representing yourself and what light you are shining on them?

You are not a shining light of truth but a glaring example of what walking arrogance is.

Palusut


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## Brian Johns (May 24, 2003)

I would have to agree with Palusut 100% with regard to moromoro. All of the posters on MT are quite respectful of FMA. Many of us Modern Arnis practitioners belong to different organizations. Yet, we treat each other with respect, even if we have differences of opinion with regard to the structure or vision of the art. That also extends outside of Modern Arnis. I have seen nothing but the utmost respect by us towards other practitioners of other martial arts. I have not seen that respect from moromoro.

As Palusut said, moromoro is a glaring example of what walking arrogance is.


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## tshadowchaser (May 24, 2003)

> In the U.S and the west in general it seems that the FMA are sold.



 Lets see I've been teaching Sikaran for 30 years give or take and promoted 3 to the rank of instructor.  My drop out rate is close to 99 out of a hundred the first year because I have "hard" classes. As closely as I can judge the next person to get instructors rank from me is some 5 to 7 years away from it.

 Yep I just sell sell sell that rank and give it all away.

 Anyone who makes such general statements  as the quote above should be aware that the FMA has been taught in thias country for many years by those who came here from the islands. Maybe many of the instructors did not go public or do not have the public relations man to put there name in frount of the world, but they have taught, instructed and given of themsleves to keep their art alive. These people deserve more respect than to have someone throw such a statement out .


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## Cruentus (May 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *well i was trying to find out a way to reply....in a nice manner
> 
> firstly i dont believe i have never insulted anyone in this forum who did not deserve it. *



The fact that you feel that you can judge who is deserving of an insult and who is not only proves your arrogence.



> * Look at the your pathetic post the guy ask for help in a forum on what to teach his class.... now this is completely unacceptable in any martial arts (maybe not taeBo)
> 
> This is just one example of the bastardization of the FMA in the west...... (dont care about culture dont care about skill just certificates and the amount of students,) its like having an attitude of "great i know plenty of drills i can start a class now".....
> (thank god i come from systems with no drills---- per se)
> *



You don't even know the guy, or what he was trying to do. You didn't even attempt to get any clarifications as to what he was trying to do, either, you just jumped to false conclusions. Another sad example of how you are just looking to slam someone else so you can feel better about yourself. Do ya feel better, moromoro? Was your little self esteem boosted after you slammed him for asking his question? A real eskrimador wouldn't have your self esteem problems.



> * Sorry guys but this is not how it is done back home.....
> 
> also i have said in the past that i thought a certain poster was S**t it didnt represent the filipino flag correctly......
> 
> In the U.S and the west in general it seems that the FMA are sold.*



I'd like you to list how many times you've been to the U.S., and how many times you've trained/played here, and who you had a chance to train/cross sticks with.

I'll bet that the answer is close to "0." 



> * What i have seen in Martial talk is almost a complete disrespect for the FMA and its varied history and teachers, people on this forum bite at you when you say go to the philippines and practice there.... *



Nobody disagrees that it would be beneficial to go and train in the PI, even if nothing else just to experience it. People "bite" when you imply that you cannot be an eskrimador or a true FMA teacher or student unless you go to the PI to train; this is an absolutly ridicules implication.

The only person here who has a complete disrespect for Filipino culture and Martial Arts is YOU! YOU ARE A DISGRACE TO YOUR OWN PEOPLE! You misrepresent your culture by your actions alone. If people read your posts and thought that your behavior was a representation of PI culture, people would think that Filipinos are arrogent, condensending, ignorant, cowerdly jerks. You are from the PI, you claim to be a FMArtist, so you should walk the walk and talk the talk of a FMArtist. Instead, you sound like some ignorant, skilless street punk who thinks he knows all. Your behavior sickens me, and it sickens me to think that other people might actually buy the B.S. that your selling.



> * for all you Modern Arnis practitioners i can guarantee that the level of modern arnis in the philippines is a whole lot better than in the U.S. NOW WHATS YOUR OPINION ON THIS!!!!!
> *


*[*

The only thing you "guarantee" here by your post is that everyone will think that your ignorant. How many Modern Arnis people have you played with in the PI? WHO were they? Now how many M.A. people have you played with in the U.S.? Whaaaa? none? OHHHHHH! I see, so in other words you can't gaurantee S**T cause you can't even draw from your own experience. that's what I thought, but I was just checking to make sure. 



> *
> now my chance to educate.....
> 
> firstly dont disrespect other FMA just because they dont bother to have front page ad's on blackbelt magazine or the like..... advertising doesnt mean it is better...
> ...



Nice attempt to educate. Some points are O.K., some I might disagree with. That's not what matters. What matters is that NO ONE WILL LISTEN TO AN "EDUCATOR" IF THE EDUCATOR IS FULL OF CRAP! You have turned others off so badly by the manner in which you post that people aren't going to listen to you or take you seriously, even if you make a valid point.



> *
> also the FMA are larger than techniques but most of you especially the westreners will never learn other aspects of it such as oracion , kulam and other spiritual aspects of it.......... dont start to cry why not firstly you dont know the language, you dont know the culture.....
> 
> hope this will enlighten you
> *



I could be wrong or out a line here, but F-it, I'm going out on a limb. I'm going to go out on a limb here to say that your a fraud when it comes to the "spiritual aspects" of the art. My guess is that you picked up a few things regarding "spirituality" just purely based on your location and heritage, but that you really don't know crap. By pretending that you have some sort of "spiritual edge" over others, you feel that this will make up for your lack of skill. This is only a theory, but it is based on these few things: 1. You are looking to elevate yourself above everyone else. "spirituality" is just one way for you to do this. 2. Your actions here are based on cowardly behavior and flamboyant and boisterous claims. Example: "I can gaurantee Modern Arnis in the PI is better then M.A. in the U.S.". I think that you would use a flamboyent and boisterous claim about PI spirituality to use in your arguements, and (quite possibly) to try to use if anyone were to try to fight you.

I could be totally wrong in my theory, and you may be very knowledgable regarding PI spirituality. The problem is, as far as I can see it, MT will never know for sure. And do you know why? because your behavior on MT is so ridicules, that it is near impossible for people to take anything that you say seriously!

If you ever want to be accepted here, or taken seriously, you would have to start with a seperate thread with a public apoligy for your behavior. Then you would have to change your entire mode of operating here to informative and open to discuss the issues.

Just a suggestion. The sooner you realize that people don't appreciate you or your behavior, the better.

hope this will enlighten you.

Thanks,

PAUL


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## arnisador (May 24, 2003)

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Rich Parsons (May 24, 2003)

Mis post


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## moromoro (May 25, 2003)

paul you are one opinionated sob. 

firstly to be a fighter you have to be a bit cocky, maybe a bit arrogant as well.......



> You don't even know the guy, or what he was trying to do.



we come from 2 different worlds, if you think its all right to get info from the net to teaCH your class, i feel sorry for you. i dont think it is all right, its little better than learning form a book....





> who you had a chance to train/cross sticks with.



ive crossed trained with guys from many styles, doce pares, lapunti, balintawak, caballero 123 orihinal, kalis illustrisimo, even a few guys who have trained in modern arnis (note they trained as part of their college curriculum, dont know what you folks think)
I DONT WANT TO GO TO THE US TO LEARN FMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HATE TO DISSAPOINT YOU BUT THE SOURCE IS THE PHILIPPINES............................



> You are from the PI, you claim to be a FMArtist, so you should walk the walk and talk the talk of a FMArtist



TO BE AN ESKRIMADOR YOU HAVE TO FIGHT, THIS IS TRUE ITS NOT A social club, like your use to, you should practice to make yourself better not to chat or make friends!!!!!!!!!!! eskrima is a battle art, made for combat....



> I'm going to go out on a limb here to say that your a fraud when it comes to the "spiritual aspects" of the art.



well your not the only one to think that way, remeber its not a true science, many people dont believe in the stuff, thats why all the hilots in the philippines dont charge for their services, (let me guess you didnt know that! well wake up) they only accept mercy.



> I could be totally wrong in my theory, and you may be very knowledgable regarding PI spirituality.



i dont claim to be very knowledgable about it but the people who i learn from are.......well i believe so anyway, 
its a toss up with this because most people including great masters dont believe in it anyway.



> hope this will enlighten you.



yes it has it has shown me one thing which i think everybody can see,

you and some others get angry very quickly, you lose your cool easily, thats your weakness 
this shows that 1 you dont fight sticks (full contac spar) enough.

and 2 yopu dont fight empty hands enough.

3. people are worried about the truth exposure to the world of you FMA boys country club..............thats how your making it look like........

thanks paul you have enlightened me you have enlightened me with your BS

thank you 

terry

as far as an apology, what for you?, take a look at your post


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## Master of Blades (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *paul you are one opinionated sob.
> 
> 1) firstly to be a fighter you have to be a bit cocky, maybe a bit arrogant as well.......
> ...



1) How so does one have to be cocky or arrogant to be a fighter? Arrogance is really not needed and cockyness can get you hurt in the worst case killed. There is being sure of yourself.....and there is being cocky. I would not recommend Cocky.

2) As far as Im aware the guy wasnt asking for someone to give him a whole syllabus on paper so that he could hand it out and sit on his *** instead of teaching it himself. He was asking for guidance.....people gave him some. Now you claim this is bad and wrong, yet in your post you tell us that the fact people get angry too easily means we are not doing enough of this or that......Sounds a lot like your trying to guide us in our training! 

3) He didnt ask what you had cross trained in.......He asked if you had trained in the U.S with the FMA. But clearly you havnt.....So how can you knock it when you havnt tried it! I agree there is a lot of McDojo's out there....but they come with EVERY art...and for every Mcdojo there is usually a GOOD school. You cant just generalise like that!

4) Socialising is good.......Wasting a class is bad. Im pretty sure you will find if you actually went to America that the classes are not spent sitting on their *** drinking tea....It is spent training.

5) How are they making it look like a country club.....You have comer and started complaining about peoples promotions...Classes.....their training. According to you they shouldnt be allowed to practice the FMA's! Its like insulting someones mum and saying shes a $2 whore and expecting them to not get a little antsy! 

6) This is what everyone means....Un-needed comments. Granted you are not the only one using them......BUT DAMN! If you want to be treated with respect then SHOW SOME! 

I mean heck if Im wrong with any of that I will shut the hell up and go back to my hole......:shrug:


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## Bob Hubbard (May 25, 2003)

*Admin Note*

Ok folks....

This has gone on long enough.... Theres a lot of good info, and good perspectives coming out of these heated debates.

Theres also a TON of attitude, and crap.

Frankly, we are tired of it.


This is a not-so-friendly reminder : Our rules require you to show some respect to the other members and conduct yourself in a respectful manner.  We have allowed some leeway due to cultural differences and unfamiliarity with how the web works.

Enough time has passed now where all parties are fully aware of the rules.

The next person to take a shot at another member is winning a vacation from MartialTalk.

Some may argue "its a fill-in-the-blank thng".  I say, too bad.  You may be from country X, or whatever, but you are a GUEST in MY HOUSE and I expect you to conduct yourself that way.  Failure to comply means you are no longer welcome here, and will be ejected.

Do I make my self clear?

Good.
:asian: 


Now....lets focus on the meat of this discussion, and leave the personal shots, slights and slaps behind.  This is a discussion forum, not the Circus Maximus.


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## KenpoDragon (May 25, 2003)

Looks like the Marshall is back in town to lay down the laws, I suggest you boys put your guns back in your holsters.

:2pistols:


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## Bob Hubbard (May 26, 2003)

*MartialTalk Policy updates and changes:*

In the past few weeks several things have happened on this board that have caused concerns among both the staff and our members. These concerns cover a wide range of things. This is our attempt to address them.

First, a point of history.

MartialTalk.com was originally setup in August of 2001 to serve as a discussion forum for a regional web portal. It was never in my wildest dreams that it would be as popular as it is, and go truly world wide. In fact, it has long since outgrown and absorbed its parent site.

MartialTalk is for the friendly discussion of martial arts. The key here is this exact phase. My mental image of MartialTalk is a big living room, everyone relaxing with a cool beverage, chatting about their arts, swapping stories, news, techniques and info.

It is not a place to puff your chest, flex your muscles, get on the soapbox and rabble rouse. Nor is it the place to expose your dirty laundry, spread rumors and lies, stab in the back, and run smear campaigns.

It is not the place for egos, attitudes and agendas. 

We have seen the following problems over the recent few weeks flare up greatly. It is our growing concern that left unchecked, these issues will seriously damage, possibly destroy all the hard work we have all put into this site.


*1: Off Topic posts, and major thread drift.*
We have specific forums for specific areas. Please, use them. As our post count climbs higher, it is harder and harder for our staff to keep up with policing everything. We need your active- help. Please post on topic to each thread. If it starts to drift, help steer it back on track by a: -politely- bringing up the original topic and b: starting a new thread for the tangent.


*2: Fraud Busting.*
Every art has its frauds, fakers, and plain misguided folks. Some of them are obvious, some are not. The purpose of MartialTalk is not- to be the place thats the master list of who is legit and who is not. We have -one- forum target at the Bad Budo idea. If you have specific information on such things, post it there. The constant jumping from forum to forum and thread to thread of this desire by several well meaning folks to cleanse the arts and others who constantly feel the need to defend from attacks that often times arent even there is causing us to lock down an excessive number of threads. This cannot be allowed to continue.

Effective immediately, fraud busting outside of the realm of the Bad Budo forum will result in administrative actions against those involved when it disrupts the smooth operation of this forum. If you have concerns about someones rank/status it is to be handled via PM or email. You may post the results of that research in the Bad Budo forum if warranted. Educated martial artists will see the fraud for what he/she is and should just ignore them. This board was set up for friendly discussion of martial arts, not as a soapbox for people's personal crusades.

If you have questions, concerns, etc about someone or their 'qualifications', post it in the 'Bad Budo' forum and address it there -within our guidelines-. Interrogator type posts will not be tolerated any further. Post your questions, and give the others time to answer. The non-responsivness of an individual should be enough. 


*3: Lack of respect or tolerance for differing opinions.*
Frankly, we are tired of the arguments about gender, race, nationality, etc. We are tired of those supposedly educated, experienced, trained martial artists, who tend to regress to school yard bully mentalities and tactics.

Effective immediately, we will begin removing those members who disrupt the smooth operation of this forum. If you cannot follow our rules, if you cannot leave your attitude at the door, we do not want you here. 

There is a difference between a debate and an argument. We welcome debate, as long as it is within our posted guidelines. Take your argument and flames elsewhere. 

The harassment of members, the hiding behind the youre not an XXX so you wouldnt understand, the you master sucks, etc. stuff will stop. Now. I dont care if he thinks hes a Sith-Lord and you know he is nuts. It will cease, immediately.


*4: Adult Content / profanity*
Recently, many posts have skirted the line on mature content. Let me be very specific. If its of a sexual nature it is probably too far. If you cant say it with out cursing like a truck driver, it is probably too far. If you have to reedit your post as its got lots of *** in it, its too far, and if you change all the *** stuff so that your words mostly show up, you will be booted. Circumventing the filters is a suspendable offense, and will be more strongly enforced in the future. We have at least a 5-10% membership under the age of 14. 


*5: The General forum is not the everything goes here forum.*
If it does not involve martial arts, it goes in the locker room, unless it is a joke, in which case it goes in the humor forum. If you need help, post it in the support forum, not buried 50 posts deep in a thread wondering why we don't reply.



We are working to find ways to resolve the issues that have been brought to our attention. This will take time, and it will require the assistance of our members. 1500 members, 10 mods. Theres a lot more members than staff.


This forum and its features is here for your use and enjoyment. It is up to you on how you behave here. You can treat it as a prized resource, or a toilet. Those who do the latter will rapidly be removed.


My staff and I are your hosts. You are all our guests. We expect you to behave as such. We will remove at our discretion any and all those who we feel are not behaving by our rules. This will be done regardless of rank, title, previous contribution or political alignment. If you cannot follow our rules, the door is there. Dont let it hit you in the *** on your way out. We will honor ALL- remove my account requests immediately from this point on. No saves, no pauses. If you are suspended and whine, you will be banned. It is fair to ask why, but once told, take it like a grown up.

Before someone say this is singling out anyone in particular, it is not.


Any questions?


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