# What is circle punch?



## Alan0354 (Jul 11, 2021)

What exactly is circle punch. I went on youtube to look and this is the only one I found and I was told this is not right:






Can anyone show me how to do a circle punch, I never heard of this in my days. I only know hook punch.

Thanks


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 11, 2021)

I can only attempt to explain what I am seeing in the video.  His 'circle punch' generates power in a different way than his 'hook punch'.  He seems to be generating power from turning his shoulder and 'whipping' his punch in the circle punch, and his hook punch is a traditional hooking movement but generating power from the hips and arms.

I do not have any exact analogue to refer to in my own style (Isshinryu), but a somewhat similar 'whipping' motion is used in the basic exercise 'Ouchi, Ouchi' (oh-ooch, not owchy).   We still generate power from the hips, but we do use the fist as if it were attached to a rope, rather than simply punching in a hooking manner.  We call it a 'hook punch', but he seems to call it a 'circle punch'.  I would not say he's wrong or right; just a difference in terminology.

Both types of punches can be hard to block with a traditional upper or middle body block, but movement can still defeat them.  Moving in towards the punch, deflecting and striking as one moves in, is a good one.  Stepping back or to the outside is also good.  What you don't want to be is stationary when this type of punch comes in.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2021)

@Alan0354 

I'm putting together a video now.  Trying to find one more session that a recorded about 5 years ago.   Hopefully this will hold you over until I can find that last video I need.  

This is the fist structure that you want to use for circular punching.  I call it a "knocking fist" but the formal name for it is "Hung Fist"  This is the same structure that most people would use if they were to make a fist knock on a door.  The thumb is naturally move to side so that it's out of the way when the other 4 knuckles strike the wood.  You want a firm clinch but you don't want to over do it.  The thumb presses down into the finger helping to lock the fist.





Striking areas for this fist are circled.  The top knuckles go into all areas side of the face, in front of the face and under the chin like an upper cut.  Those top knuckles are what I use when doing my upper cuts.  I use the standard knuckles that aren't shown in this picture as well, but hitting with these knuckles give me a longer range..   The palm is used for the harder parts of the skull.  This is 2 of the five possible striking areas for this fist structure.  The thumb knuckle can be used as well but it takes conditioning that I don't do so won't include it here.





This entire area when used together can be used to strike hard parts and soft parts of the head.  This area is uses for striking the sides of the head, face, and the top of the head.   When you make this type of fist and hold this side of the fist to your head you can feel how your fist covers the side of your head and the larger area that makes contact to your head.  That larger area is enlarges the impact point and greatly lowers the risk of breaking your hand and knuckles.




You see some volleyball players use this same striking surface to serve the ball.  Thumb is to the side so that it doesn't get in the way of the impact.  If you make a common fist where the thumb is wrapped around the knuckles the you'll break your thumb upon impact. Which is why you see some people turn the thumb to try to hit with the knuckles that they normally hit it.




You can see that fist formation here as well.  Thumb to the side.  I use the volley ball pictures here because the hand actually travels along the same circular path that a punch would.  The only different is the point of impact.  In Circular systems the point of impact would be where her striking arm would be.    It's chin height, which means that's about where your opponent's chin would be.  And those top knuckles that I circle would go under the chin.




Hopefully this will give you some understanding of the fist formation and the striking areas.  To use


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2021)

These are the knuckles you want to drive into the side of the face.  With a circular punch there's no nee to do all of that pivoting.  Simply use your waist to turn the punch and those 4 top knuckles that I showed will be all that you need to break a jaw.  Remember this is a strike to the jaw where it hinges.  You can also use it hit the front of the face, but that's a different type of circular punch so I'm only sticking to what's here.

If you pivot like a boxer then the weight of the swing will throw you off balance.  This is the structure that you want.  With circular punches your wrist doesn't have to be straight.  If your wrist is straight then the force of impact will bend your wrist back and it will break.  If you are hitting with larger area of the palm and knuckles together, then the wrist can be a little straighter but not completely straight.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 11, 2021)

Thanks

What I really want to know is whether to punch thumbs up or thumbs down.

I get used to thumbs up all along like a very long hook punch. I only heard of circle punch on this forum and I was curious. I tried it today both thumbs up and down, thumbs up like normal hook punch feels more natural and I can still generate enough power. I just want to hear what people say here.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> @Alan0354
> 
> I'm putting together a video now.  Trying to find one more session that a recorded about 5 years ago.   Hopefully this will hold you over until I can find that last video I need.
> 
> ...


WOW!!! I did not know this. Never know to strike with part of the hand like this. I have to try this to see.

Thanks


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2021)

Before we get into circular punches.   Hooks and uppercuts are all circular punches.  When long fist striking are shorted they turn into hooks but still take a circular path.

Here's the video.  You can see me make a circular motion with my arm as I move to my sons flank and hit him with a circular punch to the back of the head.   When I train my son I don't train him sports focused.  I train him to go for the areas that will end the fight the quickest.   This is why I'm not putting my guard up because at this point, no guard will save me from that impact.    This punch is with  a horizontal thumb hitting with the knuckles that we normally strike with.  That first set of knuckles closes to the hand.





Because Circular punches take longer than straight punches, it is a good idea to step off the center line.  Stepping off the centerline is actually required in this case as I cannot get to the back of the head unless I reposition.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> What I really want to know is whether to punch thumbs up or thumbs down.


It's not a thumbs up or thumbs down issue.  The guy in your video only made it an issue when he said to punch with thumbs down.  If you strike with the correct knuckles, then your thumb will never be down, hence, thumbs down will never come into the conversation.   But to answer this question.  Never thumbs down.



Alan0354 said:


> WOW!!! I did not know this. Never know to strike with part of the hand like this. I have to try this to see.


Don't hit the heavy bag with those knuckles.  You want to hit punching mits with those knuckles or a lighter bag.  An adult head weighs about 11 lbs so you don't want to hit anything that's heavier than that with these set of knuckles.   You can how ever hit heavy bag with the larger area the palm, but don't try to kill it because I don't know if your punching structure is correct.  You can injure your elbow or shoulder if the structure of your arm isn't correct.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2021)

Here you can see some of the circular punches from long fist against a heavy bag.    They look like forearm swings but the aren't He's hitting with that that large are of the palm and knuckles that I highlighted earlier.

Play the video at the slowest speed and you can see where that area of the fists impacts the bag.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's not a thumbs up or thumbs down issue.  The guy in your video only made it an issue when he said to punch with thumbs down.  If you strike with the correct knuckles, then your thumb will never be down, hence, thumbs down will never come into the conversation.   But to answer this question.  Never thumbs down.
> 
> 
> Don't hit the heavy bag with those knuckles.  You want to hit punching mits with those knuckles or a lighter bag.  An adult head weighs about 11 lbs so you don't want to hit anything that's heavier than that with these set of knuckles.   You can how ever hit heavy bag with the larger area the palm, but don't try to kill it because I don't know if your punching structure is correct.  You can injure your elbow or shoulder if the structure of your arm isn't correct.


I tried, it hits pretty good. I just need to condition my knuckles. I practice punching 6"X6" wood pole every week for years, but with the big knuckles, elbow and kick lightly, so I am used to hitting hard objects. I mainly need to ease in because of skin of the knuckle as I don't hit with that part of the knuckle ever.

It feels more natural hitting it this way. I don't see any potential injuring elbow and other part of the body.

Thanks


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2021)

@Alan0354  This is light sparring.  Circular punch.  Motion blur shows where there is movement.  The more blur the more movement that is going on.  The areas that are fairly clear is where there is little movement.  This is the point of impact.  Thumbs up, targeting the jag where it hinges.

This is when I was learning how to use this technique.   I didn't cut a 45 degree angle to her side because then the punch naturally lands on the back of the head.





take note no pivot needed. Power is in the waist for this punch not the hip.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I tried, it hits pretty good. I just need to condition my knuckles. I practice punching 6"X6" wood pole every week for years, but with the big knuckles, elbow and kick lightly, so I am used to hitting hard objects. I mainly need to ease in because of skin of the knuckle as I don't hit with that part of the knuckle ever.
> 
> It feels more natural hitting it this way. I don't see any potential injuring elbow and other part of the body.
> 
> Thanks


That's good to hear you arm is conditioned to hitting hard objects.  Now I don't have worry about that part.  So with those top knuckles I circled.  Ideally you want to hit something you can swing through.  Thing of those knuckles as stabbing into the target.  With the larger surface area (palm+kunckes), that's your tool for the harder and heavier targets.

Different person same punch.  The most difficult thing about this punch is controlling the power.  If my sparring partner punches faster then I have to move this punch faster as well.  When I do that the weight and power of the punch comes with the speed.  If I don't add the necessary speed and power then this punch doesn't disrupt my opponent.  Depending on your size and how well you can flow with circular punches  knees start to buckle at 30% - 40% power.  Getting dazed and disoriented happens at 50%.  I think it's like this because the punch travels outside of the field of the vision and they never see it coming. 

This is why this guy gets hit wide open.  He just didn't see it coming as I wasn't trying to hit my fastest.   I was actually trying to find the sweet spot where I could hit fast enough without adding power.  This was a weak punch at 10% and he was over running me with baby taps.

Circular punches don't have the benefit of stopping forward movement of the opponent,  so you have to basically hit them hard enough that they go flying to the side lol.


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## drop bear (Jul 11, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Thanks
> 
> What I really want to know is whether to punch thumbs up or thumbs down.
> 
> I get used to thumbs up all along like a very long hook punch. I only heard of circle punch on this forum and I was curious. I tried it today both thumbs up and down, thumbs up like normal hook punch feels more natural and I can still generate enough power. I just want to hear what people say here.



Yeah. It is basically the continuation of an overhand.

And it pops your elbow up if you want to try to sneak it over someone's guard. Where a hook potentially goes inside someone's guard. For simplicity's sake.

There are reach issues and angles and stuff that you can play with as well.

You can do either with or without gloves.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> @Alan0354
> 
> I'm putting together a video now.  Trying to find one more session that a recorded about 5 years ago.   Hopefully this will hold you over until I can find that last video I need.
> 
> ...


That is an Isshinryu fist.  It is delivered vertically.  The top two knuckles are used for striking in a straight punch.  The bottom of the hand (left side in the photo above) is used for tetsui or hammer fist techniques.  You strike with the first knuckles where the fingers join the hand, not the knuckes seen in the above photo.  The thumb on top provides stability.  It helps keep the wrist straight when delivering power.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. It is basically the continuation of an overhand.
> 
> And it pops your elbow up if you want to try to sneak it over someone's guard. Where a hook potentially goes inside someone's guard. For simplicity's sake.
> 
> ...



Wow. he put all of his weight into that one.  He must have seen that opening a mile a way and knew it would be there.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Here you can see some of the circular punches from *long fist* against a heavy bag.    They look like forearm swings but the aren't He's hitting with that that large are of the palm and knuckles that I highlighted earlier.
> 
> Play the video at the slowest speed and you can see where that area of the fists impacts the bag.


You said this clip is long fist punch. But this clip is Choy Lay Fu punch.

- The long fist system is a northern CMA system.
- The Choy Lay Fu system is a southern CMA system.

There are quite different. Are you sure you are talking about the "long fist" system?

The long fist system doesn't punch with knuckles. The long fist system punches with the "flat space" between the 2nd and 3rd finger joints.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> That is an Isshinryu fist.


Nah it's a Hung Fist. lol..  I'm pretty sure of it. lol.    

.



Just giving you a hard time because I know we use the same fist.    This is also a Isshinryu fist as well.  Sometimes 2 things are the same thing with a different name.  

Bill the only reason you are cool with me is because you use this fist lol.   I think we are the only 2 out of this forum who uses this fist structure.


Bill Mattocks said:


> That is an Isshinryu fist. It is delivered vertically. The top two knuckles are used for striking in a straight punch. The bottom of the hand (left side in the photo above) is used for tetsui or hammer fist techniques. You strike with the first knuckles where the fingers join the hand, not the knuckes seen in the above photo. The thumb on top provides stability. It helps keep the wrist straight when delivering power.


This sounds like a linear punch.  We use the same knuckles that you describe with the same fist, but only with linear punches.   In Hung Ga, Choy Li Fut, and Jow Ga and some other circular systems.  This fist uses 5 strike surfaces.

1. The frist knuckles, The one that you described for linear punches
2. The second knuckles, The ones' I circled.
3. The base of the fist (the one you described for hammer fists)
4. The total surface of the palm and the knuckle
5. The thumb.  

I can flow in and out of linear strikes, hammer fists, and hit with various sides of the fist without changing structure.   For me personally, I think this is a better fist than the common fist that most people simply because of all of the options for striking.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You said this clip is long fist punch. But this clip is Choy Lay Fu punch.
> 
> - The long fist system is a northern CMA system.
> - The Choy Lay Fu is a southern CMA system.
> ...


Last time I checked Choy Lay Fut and Hung Gar were considered long fist systems as well.  Unless someone lied to me and to some Sifu's

This is from a Hung Ga School site"
"Hung was also schooled in Crane style boxing by Fang Yung-chun, who later became his wife. The Crane boxing system stressed one legged stances, pecking, wing and beak attacks, as well as short and *long fist movements*."






From the best of my knowledge there are southern systems that have northern components.  I know Jow Ga definitely has it in there.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Last time I checked Choy Lay Fut and Hung Gar were considered long fist systems as well.  Unless someone lied to me and to some Sifu's
> 
> This is from a Hung Ga School site"
> "Hung was also schooled in Crane style boxing by Fang Yung-chun, who later became his wife. The Crane boxing system stressed one legged stances, pecking, wing and beak attacks, as well as short and *long fist movements*."


The Choy Lay Fut system is a combination of Choy family, Lay family, and the Buddhism. It's 100% southern CMA. Someone said that the southern Hung system came from the northern Hung Chuan, but there was no proof for it - Hung Chuan had moved to the south.

The long fist is trained by Chinese Muslim. In China, only Muslim people wear hat like that.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The Choy Lay Fut system is a combination of Choy family, Lay family, and the Buddhism. It's 100% southern CMA. Someone said that the southern Hung system came from the northern Hung Chuan, but there was no proof for it - Hung Chuan had moved to the south.
> 
> The long fist is trained by Chinese Muslim. In China, only Muslim people wear hat like that.


We probably need a Choy Lay Fut person.  

When I watch that video, my reference points kept going back to some of the things I've seen in Jow Ga, which doesn't help.

Didn't do deep on the validity of the website Source: What You Should Know About Choy Li Fut Kung Fu
"There are several types of hand strikes within the art, including those that connect from the fist, open hand, claw hand and more. Kicks are also used in Choy Li Fut. The Long Fist and Buddhist Palm boxing styles are taught as part of this style as well. "

This is stuff that I've often heard from people who do Choy Li Fut  maybe there is some cross over.  A teacher that knows both northern and southern systems?


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Nah it's a Hung Fist. lol..  I'm pretty sure of it. lol.
> 
> .View attachment 26995
> 
> ...


Agreed!






We may not use the same punches you do, but we can and do use the above diagrammed surfaces to strike with.  As you said, the top two knuckles are for linear punches.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2021)

Maybe it's more accurate for me to say that Choy Li Fut is a southern system with Long fist techniques?


Bill Mattocks said:


> Agreed!
> 
> View attachment 26998
> 
> We may not use the same punches you do, but we can and do use the above diagrammed surfaces to strike with.  As you said, the top two knuckles are for linear punches.


Best fist in the world.  Tell them that JowGaWolf and Bill Mattocks said so.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> We probably need a Choy Lay Fut person.
> 
> When I watch that video, my reference points kept going back to some of the things I've seen in Jow Ga, which doesn't help.
> 
> ...


Southern Long Fist?  I'm just grasping for straws at this point lol.    The only thing I do know is that things get added to systems that weren't originally there during the early decades of a system.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Southern Long Fist?  I'm just grasping for straws at this point lol.    The only thing I do know is that things get added to systems that weren't originally there during the early decades of a system.


It could also be that Long Fist has become a general term.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 11, 2021)

When you throw a circular punch, you can also strike with the forearm and the wrist bone - my favor.


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## drop bear (Jul 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Wow. he put all of his weight into that one.  He must have seen that opening a mile a way and knew it would be there.



Because of the angle it is a bit safer than  it looks


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## Flying Crane (Jul 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Don't hit the heavy bag with those knuckles.  You want to hit punching mits with those knuckles or a lighter bag.  An adult head weighs about 11 lbs so you don't want to hit anything that's heavier than that with these set of knuckles.   You can how ever hit heavy bag with the larger area the palm, but don't try to kill it because I don't know if your punching structure is correct.  You can injure your elbow or shoulder if the structure of your arm isn't correct.


I do hit the heavy bag.  It weight 85 pounds, I’m about 165-170, so it’s roughly half my weight.  I cannot hit through the bag, of course.  It will not swing far enough.  But I can definitely hit into it and it is indeed a powerful punch when you drive it from the feet and legs, and use that torso rotation, not just a swing with the arm.  Definitely protect the elbow from hyper-extension.  Go easy and figure out what you can safely do.

I like to think of those knuckles digging in behind the enemy’s jaw hinge and just ripping through his face.  I think you can wreck a fellow that way.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Because of the angle it is a bit safer than  it looks


Oh it didn't look risky to me.  I was just nothing that he put a lot of weight into that punch.  If someone was trying to "punch a hole in space" it was this guy and that punch lol.  Usually (with exceptions) people don't swing that hard unless the can see that punch landing way before they actually throw it, or if they are desperately swinging and hoping they will hit something.  I think he just saw that clear opening and knew it would land like that without a doubt.  He was all in, on that punch. I would hate to get hit like that.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It could also be that Long Fist has become a general term.


I believe it is.  There is “northern Longfist system” which refers to a specific system of two, including an Islamic method, and then there is using the term ”long fist” or “long arm” to describe the overall approach to training.  I have always described Tibetan White Crane as a “long fist/long arm” method.  I believe it is accurate to describe Choy Lay Fut in that manner as well.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 11, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you throw a circular punch, you can also strike with the forearm and the wrist bone - my favor.


Agreed.  This is a useful variant.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think we are the only 2 out of this forum who uses this fist structure.


Wrong.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I like to think of those knuckles digging in behind the enemy’s jaw hinge and just ripping through his face.


That's exactly like I think of it.   Knuckles, digging /stabbing into that jaw hinge.  It's not a clubbing feel.  For those who are unfamiliar with this, make the fist and slowly put pressure into your jaw where it hinges.

It would be like a baseball bat with a spike on the end.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Wrong.


That's right.  How could I forget about you.  The next time I hit someone with that fist, I'll tell them Flying Crane sent me. lol


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## Alan0354 (Jul 12, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Here you can see some of the circular punches from long fist against a heavy bag.    They look like forearm swings but the aren't He's hitting with that that large are of the palm and knuckles that I highlighted earlier.
> 
> Play the video at the slowest speed and you can see where that area of the fists impacts the bag.


Actually circle punch is very much like Tae Kwon Do's Ridge hand that I practice a lot. Just hit with different part of the hand. I have to practice to see which one hit harder. Seems like circle punch is safer for the hand because if you swing the ridge hand and the opponent back up just a little, the finger will hit the opponent and that can hurt the fingers. where as if I shape my hands like you show, the fingers are bent and it should not hurt the fingers.

BTW, I thought punching wood pole is very important to condition the hand. Human head is very hard!!! If the punch misses the face and hit either the front or the side of the head, it's like hitting a coconut!!! One can break the knuckle easily and takes a long time to heal. One time I was breaking boards by punching, all of a sudden, I felt the knuckle collapsed and gave. It hurt like hell and took a long time to recover. The knuckle never looks the same anymore. That's the reason I make it a point to punch 10 times on the pole once a week, 10 of the front two knuckles like regular boxing, 10 times Wing Chun style with the last two knuckles. Not all out punching( that will hurt!!) but control punching just to toughen up the knuckles. I also do Ridge hand on the pole also. 10 times and no more.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 12, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I believe it is.  There is “northern Longfist system” which refers to a specific system of two, including an Islamic method, and then there is using the term ”long fist” or “long arm” to describe the overall approach to training.  I have always described Tibetan White Crane as a “long fist/long arm” method.  I believe it is accurate to describe Choy Lay Fut in that manner as well.


Ok.  So my head exploded to day.  I was reading a conversation of some Jow Ga and other system (unknown) Sifu's talking about Choy Ga.  So  Jow Ga has Choy Ga forms,  Choy Ga has Jow ga Forms, Choy Li Fut has  Choy ga Forms.    All three systems have those big wheel punches.   There is definitely mixing going on within the systems and most likely friends of different systems shared forms with each other.  I once knew a Lama Pi form as they have similar movement to Jow Ga  The only big noticeable difference is that Lama Pi forms extend in a similar way as Northern Longfist.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 12, 2021)

Don't forget Tae Kwon Do's Ridge hand. It is similar also, just hitting with different part of the hand.






It's the idea how to strike that is important, who cares who invented it. Just different variations.

This, I have been practicing all along, no wonder when I followed the circle punch yesterday, it's very natural for me.

One disadvantage of Ridge hand is if the opponent backs off a little, you will hit the head with the index finger instead of the stronger wrist bone or the bone between the knuckle and the wrist of the index finger. That will hurt the fingers. Might be better if you bent all the fingers. Ha ha, if you hold a fist to strike, that will be more similar to the Choy Le Fut style!!!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 12, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> as Northern Longfist.


As a Chinese, I have never heard about the term "Northern Longfist". Some long fist guys like to call themselves as "Northern Shaolin". When I had my CMA school, I used the term "Northern Shaolin" because more American know about Shaolin than about long fist. Actually, long fist has nothing to do with the Shaolin temple.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 12, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> BTW, I thought punching wood pole is very important to condition the hand. Human head is very hard!!! If the punch misses the face and hit either the front or the side of the head, it's like hitting a coconut!!!


You can hit the side of someone's head or the top of someone's head so long as you use the right part of your fist.  

This is my son on the left sparring one of the older students.  The person on the right is one of our female students who wanted to learn how to fight using kung fu.  Some context everyone that trains with me or that I train spars to learn except for one person who was an instructor at the school.  So these aren't screenshot of full on slaughters.   It's free sparring and the punches are hard enough to give a black eye but that's all.  My son is using the ole school open palm martial arts gloves.  The gloves are totally useless for the types of punches we do.  

Here you see him winding up.  Looks like he could get jabbed or elbowed right in the face, but he put enough pressure on her to stay in a defensive position.




Not sure what she was looking at or what she was trying to avoid.  I'll have to ask her one day.  But my son must have so the opening and knew he could get it.





Comparing her head position with the picture above.  I'm going to guess that she didn't see it coming. She's almost in the same position.  Maybe she thought she had stop the punch.  My son threw 2 punches.  The first punch kind of distracts and the second punch sneaks in.





And this is why I encourage "Sparring to learn"  People can make mistakes and not "pay a heavy price."  At this point.  She's getting hit with that larger area of the fist that I circled.  Even if this would have landed on the forehead, My son would still be ok, so long as his fist tight and he's hitting with that larger area made of palm and knuckles.





By the way.  She brushed it off and "lit my son" and we all had a good laugh including my son. If you try to hit with the knuckles like this then there's a risk of busting a knuckle.   I use a basketball to with some of the air let out to train my fist.  My son and I kind of play catch like that, doing strikes on the basket ball.  We let some of the air out so that it gives a little when we hit it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 12, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> It's the idea how to strike that is important, who cares who invented it. Just different variations.


IMO, the circle punch has much more usage than just punch.

It can be used as:

- wrist grab.
- downward parry.
- block jab/cross.
- head lock.
- set up for under hook.
- ...

Since the circle punch has more usage than the straight punch, it's much more fun to train.

Here is to use circle punch to grab the wrist.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 12, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Don't forget Tae Kwon Do's Ridge hand. It is similar also, just hitting with different part of the hand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 That used to be one of my favorite strikes then one day I just stopped doing them without reason.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 12, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> As a Chinese, I have never heard about the term "Northern Longfist". Some long fist guys like to call themselves as "Northern Shaolin". When I had my CMA school, I used the term "Northern Shaolin" because more American know about Shaolin than about long fist. Actually, long fist has nothing to do with the Shaolin temple.


Well you know Americans and Westerners in general.  We mess up a lot of naming of things.  We just make stuff up , go with it and there you have it.  A new word.  Like "Being Woke" ,  "Aight" and  "Bruh"  So anything is possible on our end. We can't even get the metric system right lol.  

From my experience most people don't know Shaolin except what they used to see in the movies and in photos like this.  My neighbors still think I do Karate.  If there's a neighborhood get together, the question is  "Still doing karate"  Neighbors often see me train in the front of my house.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 12, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That used to be one of my favorite strikes then one day I just stopped doing them without reason.


It's just like a tool in the tool chest for you to use if you need it. I never think about circle punch until UFC people use it for long distance attack, that made me start this thread. First looked like long hook, then, something looked different. Now I understand it a lot more. For me, it's easier to think of it as Ridge hand, then just hold the hand differently to experiment which is better for me.

I emphasize what *different does it make* whether it's circle punch, Ridge hand, from whatever Chinese MA etc. It's the idea and the use that is important.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 12, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Ok.  So my head exploded to day.  I was reading a conversation of some Jow Ga and other system (unknown) Sifu's talking about Choy Ga.  So  Jow Ga has Choy Ga forms,  Choy Ga has Jow ga Forms, Choy Li Fut has  Choy ga Forms.    All three systems have those big wheel punches.   There is definitely mixing going on within the systems and most likely friends of different systems shared forms with each other.  I once knew a Lama Pi form as they have similar movement to Jow Ga  The only big noticeable difference is that Lama Pi forms extend in a similar way as Northern Longfist.


Interesting, and what exactly are you referring to with your last sentence?


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 12, 2021)

I have always had circle punch refer to anything thats not a straght or uppercut. (as well as things not otherwise caterogirsed)    ie Hooks.      As far as my naming convetion goes, thats a form of hook hes just renamed, i have seen hooks (more for long range) do what he is calling a circle punch.

And yes i am getting big D&D/old RPG circle kick vibes from this.

The sort of underhook thing is called hook uppercut or soething, its sort of a hybrid.

Addendum: As far as i have had it expalined, the "circle punch" in the video is a more long ranged hook.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 12, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Interesting, and what exactly are you referring to with your last sentence?


I was referring to the long strikes in their form.  Jow Ga, Hung Ga use a long uppercut called Pow Choy that stops at my chin height. Lama Pi has the same punch but in the form they follow through as if they are trying to uppercut  someone who is 7ft tall.  A lot of these systems have been blending, at least in the US.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 13, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I was referring to the long strikes in their form.  Jow Ga, Hung Ga use a long uppercut called Pow Choy that stops at my chin height. Lama Pi has the same punch but in the form they follow through as if they are trying to uppercut  someone who is 7ft tall.  A lot of these systems have been blending, at least in the US.


Ah yes, we do that same big pau choi.  All the way through.  Big extended movements.  It is part of that “exaggerated” movement that I always mention.  But also, if you drive that under the chin, make sure you don’t stop when you make contact.  Go all the way through.


----------



## AIKIKENJITSU (Jul 13, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> What exactly is circle punch. I went on youtube to look and this is the only one I found and I was told this is not right:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've taught American Kenpo (my version) for fifty years. I do a circular punch like the above video. Curve my wrist and thumb down, striking with my foreinger and middle knuckle, bending , bending my wrist. My advice is to not make or think of moves being over complicated; the similar the better.
Sifu
Puyallup, WA


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## Alan0354 (Jul 13, 2021)

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> I've taught American Kenpo (my version) for fifty years. I do a circular punch like the above video. Curve my wrist and thumb down, striking with my foreinger and middle knuckle, bending , bending my wrist. My advice is to not make or think of moves being over complicated; the similar the better.
> Sifu
> Puyallup, WA


I am on strike this week because my grand daughter is staying with us. I'll try all of them next week.

Thanks


----------



## Caster (Jul 13, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> What exactly is circle punch. I went on youtube to look and this is the only one I found and I was told this is not right:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This punch is mostly prevalent in jkd. 

Being a jkd guy ill try and give an explanation in the way I most understand and utilize it. 

Let's say you are striking forward with a jab or straight lead, your opponent wants to catch it or push it aside, you decide you'll simply go around, so you relax your arm briefly, and wind around the defensive arm, gaining momentum as your arm spins to strike your opponent from the side. In wing chun this would be a jao sao type attack. 

Another way to utilize the circular punch is - say your very close to your opponent in grappling type range. You simply don't have enough room to get a hook, though the opponents side is exposed; You'll want to relax the arm a bit allowing it to fall then winding it around to it can gain momentum and thus power, this will help make up fo some of the lack of hip engagement in this extremely close quarters situation. 

Cheers! 


Alan0354 said:


> What exactly is circle punch. I went on youtube to look and this is the only one I found and I was told this is not right:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 13, 2021)

3 right circle punches can be seen at 0/28 - 0/31. This is one of my favor combos. When I walk, I like to do

- right low hook, right middle hook, right high hook,
- left low hook, left middle hook, left high hook.
- ...

When I walk like this, people will stay away from my path.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 13, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I walk like this, people will stay away from my path.


Probably not for the reasons you think.   Crazy guy coming down the street punching lol.   

just joking. giving you a hard time.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 13, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Probably not for the reasons you think.   Crazy guy coming down the street punching lol.
> 
> just joking. giving you a hard time.


So in an Ironic turn of events.  I was the "Crazy guy coming down the street swinging a staff"  I try to walk every night for health and rehab purposes and part of that process I use a staff and I do a few kung fu swings with it.  So, 3 ladies 2 adults and 1 girl from a different neighborhood walked by (keep in mind it's getting dark).  Upon passing them for a second time, one of the ladies took it as an opportunity to scare the little girl.  

Guess who they pointed at?  Yep me and my staff.    I'm pretty sure that was what was going on as the lady pointed in my direction and I could see the girl pull back as if she was scared.  I'm pretty sure my wife wasn't scaring them lol.

By the way, I only walk at night in my neighborhood as my neighbors are familiar with the guy that practices the staff in his front yard.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 14, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> 3 right circle punches can be seen at 0/28 - 0/31. This is one of my favor combos. When I walk, I like to do
> 
> - right low hook, right middle hook, right high hook,
> - left low hook, left middle hook, left high hook.
> ...


Depends on how big you are and how big the other guy is. Just yesterday, we took our grand daughter to Carmel Ca. to walk around, I saw two guys that's like 6'8", arm like 19". I looked at my walking stick, I seriously question whether it's heavy enough for being 18oz(heavy for a cane)!!!

Please don't lecture me size and strength doesn't matter.* IT REALLY DOES*.  AND do* NOT* assume they don't know how to fight.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Jul 14, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Depends on how big you are and how big the other guy is. Just yesterday, we took our grand daughter to Carmel Ca. to walk around, I saw two guys that's like 6'8", arm like 19". I looked at my walking stick, I seriously question whether it's heavy enough for being 18oz(heavy for a cane)!!!
> 
> Please don't lecture me size and strength doesn't matter.* IT REALLY DOES*.  AND do* NOT* assume they don't know how to fight.


Alan, a ton of bricks falling has no technique but it can still kill you if it falls on you.   No one is going to dispute that size and strength do not matter.   If it didn't, what would be the point of all those pushups .   Most combat sports have weight categories to help level the playing field a little.   Kyokushin still have open weight tournaments but you rarely see smaller guys finishing at the top.   

It is good for you to question whether your 18 oz walking stick will help you defend against someone who is 6'-8" with arms that are 19" in diameter.   There are probably many other reasons you should question if that is a good idea at all.   However, that doesn't mean you shouldn't train and try to improve yourself physically and mentally against attacks.   It just means you should be more realistic and honest about which types of situations you will be more successful in defending yourself with your can.    How can you find these limits ?   Find opportunities to test your skills against live non-cooperating opponents who you trust can help you find the areas you need to work on to become better.  

Hopefully the source of what is prompting you to feel the need to defend yourself will also lessen (ie:   Attacks against Asians).  Good luck and keep safe.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 14, 2021)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Alan, a ton of bricks falling has no technique but it can still kill you if it falls on you. No one is going to dispute that size and strength do not matter.


I'm going to say that size and weight don't matter in the way that we assume.  Size and weight will change the approach in which someone has to use in order to win.  Just because they are bigger and stronger doesn't mean that those advantages are the things that give them the win.

If I had to fight someone taller and bigger than me by a great deal then I know that punching the face may not be an option.   I may have to start looking at other points to attack in order to win.   Someone who is taller and stronger may have a coordination issue that I can exploit.  Their footwork may not be the best.   Their size may give me a speed advantage and an endurance advantage.   A win may not be a KO, but a disengagement.

In competitive sports smaller fighters have been able to win against larger fighters.





Does  size and weight matter? Yep, but there are 2 sides of that. 




Yokozuna514 said:


> It is good for you to question whether your 18 oz walking stick will help you defend against someone who is 6'-8" with arms that are 19" in diameter. There are probably many other reasons you should question if that is a good idea at all. However, that doesn't mean you shouldn't train and try to improve yourself physically and mentally against attacks. It just means you should be more realistic and honest about which types of situations you will be more successful in defending yourself with your can. How can you find these limits ?


ha ha ha.. I already know the answer this one.  Me vs someone who is 6'-8"   I'm not going to be able to hit that person unless they come down to my level.   If I have to fight someone like that then I'm already thinking.  stick and move.  Crack some shins.  Especially if I had a cane.  Yep, time to tenderize those shins before I start kicking them lol.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 14, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I looked at my walking stick, I seriously question whether it's heavy enough for being 18oz(heavy for a cane)!!!


Some MA people carry walking stick with sword in it.





The cane gun is even better.





I have a solid steel spear head that can be attached at the end of my hiking stick. I use it to deal with mountain lion when I hike.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 14, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> WOW!!! I did not know this. Never know to strike with part of the hand like this. I have to try this to see.
> 
> Thanks


Don't..don't do that. Punching with your middle knuckles will just get you broken fingers. Take everything you hear on this site with a grain of salt.. seriously.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 14, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Don't..don't do that. Punching with your middle knuckles will just get you broken fingers. Take everything you hear on this site with a grain of salt.. seriously.


Agree! During the full contact Karate time (1973 - 1976), many Karate guys came to me for external medicine (used for iron palm training) for their broken knuckles from their ridge hand striking.

Sometime people may forget that they should use hard to hit soft, and use soft to hit hard. A palm edge strike on the skull is much more effective than a fist on the skull.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 14, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Don't..don't do that. Punching with your middle knuckles will just get you broken fingers.


There's nothing wrong with hitting someone with the middle knuckle.  If you target your punches and understand what parts of the fist to use and when then it's not an issue.

People who only know how to use these 2 knuckles on a fist are usually the ones worried about breaking their hands.   People should also learn how to target their punches instead of just swinging hard and hope to hit something.






Get good with targeting your opponent and learn to strike with different areas of your fist and a lot of the worries about breaking the hand and knuckles should evaporate.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 14, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Sometime people may forget that they should use hard to hit soft, and use soft to hit hard.


They don't forget.  They only know know how to strike using one area of the fist.  How many boxers do you know that are trained to strike with the base of their fist or the palm of their hand?

Perfect example of what I'm saying.  Trying to hit with the same two knuckles


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 15, 2021)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Alan, a ton of bricks falling has no technique but it can still kill you if it falls on you.   No one is going to dispute that size and strength do not matter.   If it didn't, what would be the point of all those pushups .   Most combat sports have weight categories to help level the playing field a little.   Kyokushin still have open weight tournaments but you rarely see smaller guys finishing at the top.
> 
> It is good for you to question whether your 18 oz walking stick will help you defend against someone who is 6'-8" with arms that are 19" in diameter.   There are probably many other reasons you should question if that is a good idea at all.   However, that doesn't mean you shouldn't train and try to improve yourself physically and mentally against attacks.   It just means you should be more realistic and honest about which types of situations you will be more successful in defending yourself with your can.    How can you find these limits ?   Find opportunities to test your skills against live non-cooperating opponents who you trust can help you find the areas you need to work on to become better.
> 
> Hopefully the source of what is prompting you to feel the need to defend yourself will also lessen (ie:   Attacks against Asians).  Good luck and keep safe.


Yes, that's the reason I still spend like 3 hours a week doing weight training. But as I get old(68) muscle starts to shrink. I used to be able to do like 2 reps of 225lbs bench press 10 years ago. Last year before the shut down, I barely can do 6 to 7 reps of 185lbs!!! I quit going to the gym and doing weights at home. I got two weighted jackets totaled to 60lbs and wear them to do push-up instead of benching. I can still do 20 pushups with the jackets with legs on the chair. I still can do 10 reps of bicep curls with 40lbs dumbbell.

To me, strength is as important as fighting skills. Too bad we all have to get old. I am short also, only 5'5" over weight. My arm shrink from 16" 10 years ago to only 15 1/4" squeezing real hard!!! I am spending quit a bit of time on the cane fight as I am in a big disadvantage against younger and bigger people. I put in about 7hrs a week in the pass 4 months, my body is complaining left and right!!! I have the heart, just not the body!!! I train as hard as my body allow me at this point, and the 7hr/wk might not last much longer. I don't want to end up hurting myself, I am constantly fighting injuries, now my right knee is giving me hard time. I decided to take a week off this week and see.

Yes, I started to add in the cane fight to my routine when all the Asians are being attacked. I don't believe in protesting and say " pretty please, please respect me!!". I am doing my part in protecting myself and my wife. I am no expert in MA, but I just keep practicing.

Thanks


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 15, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Don't..don't do that. Punching with your middle knuckles will just get you broken fingers. Take everything you hear on this site with a grain of salt.. seriously.


I watched Connor McGregor punched like that. I tried on the heavy bag, I don't think it's bad. In fact, I think it's quite good.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 15, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Some MA people carry walking stick with sword in it.
> 
> View attachment 27013
> 
> ...


Those are ILLEGAL!!! Talk about guns, I have plenty, I don't need a stick that fires only one shot. I have guns from tiny to big if I want to carry concealed and I am very good shooter also. You know how much trouble you can get into using a firearm even for justifiable self defense? Those liberal DA will throw the book on you making you an example. Even a knife can get you into deep trouble.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 15, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! During the full contact Karate time (1973 - 1976), many Karate guys came to me for external medicine (*used for iron palm training*) for their broken knuckles from their ridge hand striking.
> 
> Sometime people may forget that they should use hard to hit soft, and use soft to hit hard. A palm edge strike on the skull is much more effective than a fist on the skull.


Oh man, is iron palm training a *SCAM*?!!!  I through that was useful, I spent 3 F***ing years practicing iron palm, at least 4 times a week hitting steel ball bearings. I can assure you my striking did *NOT* get stronger, my slapping on the heavy bags did *NOT* get stronger. I got carpal tunnel on both hands and I had to have surgery on my left hand and still consider surgery on my right hand. That is the *BIGGEST SCAM *I got in my life.

I am Chinese, I am very very skeptical on all the hype of the chinese kung fu. You guys can attack me, ban me, I don't care. All the BS I heard when I was in Hong Kong from those teachers.............  I was the victim of the lies. Now, I have been punching 6"X6" wood pole bare knuckle, elbow and also kicking the pole for 5 years, it sure paid off. This I watched from Karate. I hit harder, my wrists are stronger, I don't have to be afraid punching the skull if I have to.

That's why I picked Tae Kwon Do even though I learned Wing Chun before. You know what I think of Wing Chun already. I only interested in things that actually works, not by talking. Anyone want to say what works, GO ON UFC AND WIN SOME FIGHTS. Don't just talk. Now they have Balletor and Professional fight that is not as high standard, more opportunities for people that think they are better to proof.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 15, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> There's nothing wrong with hitting someone with the middle knuckle.  If you target your punches and understand what parts of the fist to use and when then it's not an issue.
> 
> People who only know how to use these 2 knuckles on a fist are usually the ones worried about breaking their hands.   People should also learn how to target their punches instead of just swinging hard and hope to hit something.
> 
> ...


I didn't say middle knuckle I said middle knuckles..as in the ones mid way down your finger.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 15, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I watched Connor McGregor punched like that. I tried on the heavy bag, I don't think it's bad. In fact, I think it's quite good.


No..you didn't. He punches properly with his top knuckles..just like everyone else that actually fights. He punches like a boxer.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 15, 2021)

Martial D said:


> No..you didn't. He punches properly with his top knuckles..just like everyone else that actually fights. He punches like a boxer.


I don't know exactly what you two were debating about what knuckle, all I know is I happened to have a commercial of UFC that showed McGregor using a circle punch and I slow down to frame by frame to verify he punched EXACTLY like GowGaWolf showed in post #3 on the first page of this thread.

What do you call that knuckle? Normal punch is with the big knuckle, you call that second knuckle?


----------



## Martial D (Jul 15, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't know exactly what you two were debating about what knuckle, all I know is I happened to have a commercial of UFC that showed McGregor using a circle punch and I slow down to frame by frame to verify he punched EXACTLY like GowGaWolf showed in post #3 on the first page of this thread.
> 
> What do you call that knuckle? Normal punch is with the big knuckle, you call that second knuckle?


No he showed a strike with the middle knuckles. Half way down the finger. A lot of tmas teach those sorts of strikes but they are mechanically problematic.


----------



## cane56 (Jul 15, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> What exactly is circle punch. I went on youtube to look and this is the only one I found and I was told this is not right:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So it's my ridge hand


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 15, 2021)

Martial D said:


> No he showed a strike with the middle knuckles. Half way down the finger. A lot of tmas teach those sorts of strikes but they are mechanically problematic.


It's not problematic if you use them for circular punch.  If you are doing linear punches, then yes, you are going to have.  I would never teach someone to punch like this.  I may show the fist, give a lecture...kung fu this,... kung fu that.  But I would never do drills or sparring with this type of fist.   This is a linear strike and not a circular one.  This is problematic.   Lightly punch a heavy bag like this and it won't take long to identify the problems and risk of this type of fist.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 15, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's not problematic if you use them for circular punch.  If you are doing linear punches, then yes, you are going to have.  I would never teach someone to punch like this.  I may show the fist, give a lecture...kung fu this,... kung fu that.  But I would never do drills or sparring with this type of fist.   This is a linear strike and not a circular one.  This is problematic.   Lightly punch a heavy bag like this and it won't take long to identify the problems and risk of this type of fist.
> 
> View attachment 27026


Yes, that will hurt. I tried on kicking bag before, it hurts.

The one you show in post #3 works. Like I said, I go frame by frame confirming Connor McGregor did a circle punch exactly like that. I have to try this next week, the few I tried feels better than Ridge hand. I am just on strike trying to recover from all the aches and pains.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 15, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Oh man, is iron palm training a *SCAM*?!!!  I through that was useful, I spent 3 F***ing years practicing iron palm, at least 4 times a week hitting steel ball bearings. I can assure you my striking did *NOT* get stronger, my slapping on the heavy bags did *NOT* get stronger. I got carpal tunnel on both hands and I had to have surgery on my left hand and still consider surgery on my right hand. That is the *BIGGEST SCAM *I got in my life.
> 
> I am Chinese, I am very very skeptical on all the hype of the chinese kung fu. You guys can attack me, ban me, I don't care. All the BS I heard when I was in Hong Kong from those teachers.............  I was the victim of the lies. Now, I have been punching 6"X6" wood pole bare knuckle, elbow and also kicking the pole for 5 years, it sure paid off. This I watched from Karate. I hit harder, my wrists are stronger, I don't have to be afraid punching the skull if I have to.
> 
> That's why I picked Tae Kwon Do even though I learned Wing Chun before. You know what I think of Wing Chun already. I only interested in things that actually works, not by talking. Anyone want to say what works, GO ON UFC AND WIN SOME FIGHTS. Don't just talk. Now they have Balletor and Professional fight that is not as high standard, more opportunities for people that think they are better to proof.


You go on UFC and win some fights.  Tell us how it works out for you.  

Can’t do it?  I guess you must be telling us lies now.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 15, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> You go on UFC and win some fights.  Tell us how it works out for you.
> 
> Can’t do it?  I guess you must be telling us lies now.


I'll be the first one to say I won't last a minute inside the Octagon. I never said I am good, I am too old.

Hell, I work on heavy bags everyweek, I call that aerobics, I don't even dare to say I am practicing martial arts because I know MMA will eat me for breakfast. If Kung Fu is so good, proof inside the Octagon. I wonder why no kung fu goes into the Octagon after they got creamed in the first two UFC at the very beginning in the early 90s.

Go on youtube and check out Xu Ziaodong. I heard there is a standing offer of $20K to anyone that can beat him.  Last I know, he is still loud month and trash talk.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 15, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I'll be the first one to say I won't last a minute inside the Octagon. I never said I am good, I am too old.
> 
> Hell, I work on heavy bags everyweek, I call that aerobics, I don't even dare to say I am practicing martial arts because I know MMA will eat me for breakfast. If Kung Fu is so good, proof inside the Octagon. I wonder why no kung fu goes into the Octagon after they got creamed in the first two UFC at the very beginning in the early 90s.
> 
> Go on youtube and check out Xu Ziaodong. I heard there is a standing offer of $20K to anyone that can beat him.  Last I know, he is still loud month and trash talk.


You don't need to fight professionally..or even at all..to train in MMA.

But the skills you will learn will by far surpass anything you will get from any traditional style in terms of fighting ability. If your goal is to be able to hold your own in an actual fight this is the best route.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 15, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> You go on UFC and win some fights.  Tell us how it works out for you.
> 
> Can’t do it?  I guess you must be telling us lies now.


ha ha ha. that's right and there's a lot of us who are liars by that standard.  ha ha ha. My brain still works lol


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 15, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I'll be the first one to say I won't last a minute inside the Octagon. I never said I am good, I am too old.
> 
> Hell, I work on heavy bags everyweek, I call that aerobics, I don't even dare to say I am practicing martial arts because I know MMA will eat me for breakfast. If Kung Fu is so good, proof inside the Octagon. I wonder why no kung fu goes into the Octagon after they got creamed in the first two UFC at the very beginning in the early 90s.
> 
> Go on youtube and check out Xu Ziaodong. I heard there is a standing offer of $20K to anyone that can beat him.  Last I know, he is still loud month and trash talk.


He only wants to fight fake martial artist.  He says he knows some people can really fight with kung fu and he's not challenging those people.  He's just wants to expose those who claim amazing fighting ability but never show it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 15, 2021)

Martial D said:


> You don't need to fight professionally..or even at all..to train in MMA.
> 
> But the skills you will learn will by far surpass anything you will get from any traditional style in terms of fighting ability. If your goal is to be able to hold your own in an actual fight this is the best route.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 15, 2021)

Martial D said:


> You don't need to fight professionally..or even at all..to train in MMA.
> 
> But the skills you will learn will by far surpass anything you will get from any traditional style in terms of fighting ability. If your goal is to be able to hold your own in an actual fight this is the best route.


Actually my wife was just saying that to me today!!! Believe it or not, we have a UFC gym less than 2 miles from us. My wife belongs to the UFC gym!!! She doesn't do MMA, she was originally belonged to another gym that closed because of the pandemic, they switch all their membership to UFC gym and my wife is going there for the last few months. 

I think they have one-on-one training. I would not want to join the big class as I am too old to keep up with the young kids. But one on one is doable. I wonder how much it cost per lesson. Not for anything, learning take down defense can go a long long way for me.

Speaking of take down defense, that was the reason I learn iron palm. When the grabbler tries to tackle, their back is going to be exposed, it would be in perfect position to use iron palm to slap on their back breaking their back bone. Sadly, after 3 years, I absolutely did not hit any harder than before. I tried slapping on the heavy bag, it just doesn't penetrate the bag. It's really no different from Hammer Fist used in MMA and you don't need to toughen up the hand to do hammer fist. Hammer fist actually hits harder than iron palm. I do practice hammer fist.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 15, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> learning take down defense can go a long long way for me.


It's better to learn take down than to learn take down defense. When you learn take down, you will learn take down defense, but not the other way around.

Also I don't believe full contact is suitable for anybody over 36 years old.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 15, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I would not want to join the big class as I am too old to keep up with the young kids.


No one sees this when they train.  All they see is someone giving it their best and if you can do that, then they have no excuse not to.

You'll be surprised at how many young people actually look up to older people who still put in the work.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 15, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You'll be surprised at how many young people actually look up to older people who still put in the work.


5 years ago, I still wrestled with young wrestlers in the park. I don't think I will do that today.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 15, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> When the grabbler tries to tackle, their back is going to be exposed, it would be in perfect position to use iron palm to slap on their back breaking their back bone.


I was told the same thing and and teachers probably tell and teach students that same nonsense.  I personally have never found the way to so such a thing and my stance will never be stable enough to land a downward strike like that.   I've never had anyone who had a flat back that I could strike when they tackled me.   Maybe there was once a time where that did happen but it doesn't happen anymore.  With sports like American Football, Australian Football,  and Rugby almost every boy who has played those in the park or in their yard has some kind of experience with taking someone down.  

I was fortunate enough to do a lot of wrestling and playing around with friends.  I played a lot of neighborhood football and did a lot of rough play as a kid, but I know not everyone has that type of experience.  



Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, it's better to learn take down than to learn take down defense. When you learn take down, you will learn take down defense, but not the other way around.



Not always, that's why you see a lot BJJ guys just willingly go to the ground.  They don't try to defend against the take down they just go to the ground anyway.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 15, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> 5 years ago, I still wrestled with young wrestlers in the park. I don't think I will do that today.


ha ha ha.  you can still wrestle. You just might not like how you feel in later on at night or in the morning lol.   It may be a long time before I wrestle someone all thanks to Covid.  I have my shots, but even with the vaccination I still act as if I don't have it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 15, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not always, that's why you see a lot BJJ guys just willingly go to the ground.  They don't try to defend against the take down they just go to the ground anyway.


BJJ is a funny sport. 

If you

- take yourself down, nobody can take you down.
- kill yourself, nobody can kill you.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 15, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> BJJ is a funny sport.
> 
> If you
> 
> ...


ha ha ha.. yep.  That's about the reality of it.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 16, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> No one sees this when they train.  All they see is someone giving it their best and if you can do that, then they have no excuse not to.
> 
> You'll be surprised at how many young people actually look up to older people who still put in the work.


Thanks, I gave it a lot of thoughts, I am getting to the point my body is screaming at me because I added the stick fight using a cane. It is very hard to add MMA training to what I am doing at this point. For my age where it looks normal to carry a cane when I go out, a cane is definitely a much better option than any MMA I can learn. For me, it's all about survival and keep safe, nothing about passion and interest anymore. As is, I have to scale down from 7 hours a week already, I don't think I can handle another new and more demanding routine. I have to give the cane higher priority.

Thanks


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## Alan0354 (Jul 16, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I was told the same thing and and teachers probably tell and teach students that same nonsense.  I personally have never found the way to so such a thing and my stance will never be stable enough to land a downward strike like that.   I've never had anyone who had a flat back that I could strike when they tackled me.   Maybe there was once a time where that did happen but it doesn't happen anymore.  With sports like American Football, Australian Football,  and Rugby almost every boy who has played those in the park or in their yard has some kind of experience with taking someone down.
> 
> I was fortunate enough to do a lot of wrestling and playing around with friends.  I played a lot of neighborhood football and did a lot of rough play as a kid, but I know not everyone has that type of experience.
> 
> ...


*If* there is a way to increase the power of the downward strike, at least there is a chance. The most maddening thing is 3 years, 4 days/wk, ruining both carpal tunnel, I don't think I hit harder than from day one. Imagine if I spent the time doing something useful, I'd be much better off. I even periodically went back to the instructor to demo what I practice and was told I was doing good!!!( Iron palm is a repetitive striking, I don't need to constantly taking lesson, just horse stand and strike to ball bearing bag. I just made appointment with the instructor every few months to check). 

*For anyone that interested in Iron palm........DON'T!!!* If anyone insists in practicing this, hit with closed fist as hammer fist. You hit harder, don't need very much toughening the fist as hammer fist is pretty safe even hitting hard surface. You don't need to constantly practice and get better result( hit harder).


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## treatise (Jul 18, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> What exactly is circle punch. I went on youtube to look and this is the only one I found and I was told this is not right:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm a 3rd degree black belt in Hoi Jeon Moo Sool and we use circle punches all the time.  There's even a You Tube video of the circle punch used by an older dude who was laughed at in a match.  The old guy knocked out the younger guy.  Start with a horizontal hammer strike (that's 1) follow in with an immediate horizontal hook (that's 2).  Your opposite hand should reach for the sky while you pirouette in the same rotation, then bring the original hand down and across in another hammer strike (that's 3).  If done correctly, with enough rotational power, you deliver three powerful strikes to exactly the same area on your opponent.  It can be devastating.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 18, 2021)

treatise said:


> Start with a horizontal hammer strike (that's 1) follow in with an immediate horizontal hook (that's 2).  Your opposite hand should reach for the sky while you pirouette in the same rotation, then bring the original hand down and across in another hammer strike (that's 3).  If done correctly, with enough rotational power, you deliver three powerful strikes to exactly the same area on your opponent.  It can be devastating.


Most people add a kick at the end of the 2nd punch and before the 3rd punch.

I like circle punch because I can easily use it to grab and pull my opponent's blocking arm.


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## drop bear (Jul 20, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! During the full contact Karate time (1973 - 1976), many Karate guys came to me for external medicine (used for iron palm training) for their broken knuckles from their ridge hand striking.
> 
> Sometime people may forget that they should use hard to hit soft, and use soft to hit hard. A palm edge strike on the skull is much more effective than a fist on the skull.



You can break your hand really easily on an elbow. Throwing punches to that soft body is fraught with danger.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 21, 2021)

After taking a week off, this week I am back in action. I have been practicing relax as GowGaWolf suggested, it helps, I did it before long time ago, apparently, I need to periodically renew the practice. When I went slow concentrating on smoothness, I was stumbling!!! Took me a few rounds to get back to in!!

I practice circle punch as in post #3, sadly, the skin pealed after two rounds. My bones are fine, I get used to punching the pole already, it's the new skin that I never used that gave. Now, I have to stop and let it heal. It's frustrating. Takes a while to build up the thick skin like the big knuckles to take the beating of the heavy bags particular the canvas one, it's very abrasive on the skin. Wearing gloves is cheating!!!


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## Flying Crane (Jul 21, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> After taking a week off, this week I am back in action. I have been practicing relax as GowGaWolf suggested, it helps, I did it before long time ago, apparently, I need to periodically renew the practice. When I went slow concentrating on smoothness, I was stumbling!!! Took me a few rounds to get back to in!!
> 
> I practice circle punch as in post #3, sadly, the skin pealed after two rounds. My bones are fine, I get used to punching the pole already, it's the new skin that I never used that gave. Now, I have to stop and let it heal. It's frustrating. Takes a while to build up the thick skin like the big knuckles to take the beating of the heavy bags particular the canvas one, it's very abrasive on the skin. Wearing gloves is cheating!!!


What are you striking to make the skin peel?  If you hit through something then you create the abrasion.  But if you hit into a bag and don’t scrape the surface, then No abrasion.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 21, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> What are you striking to make the skin peel?  If you hit through something then you create the abrasion.  But if you hit into a bag and don’t scrape the surface, then No abrasion.


Heavy bags. Circle punch is a slapping type punch. When the bag moves while you follow through, it scrape a little. Repeat enough times, it will burn.

Same as normal punch, we all have to go through the stage of peeling the skin off on the big knuckles until the skin gets tougher. It just takes time.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 21, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I practice circle punch as in post #3, sadly, the skin pealed after two rounds.


If your skin is peeling off then it is most likely that you are swiping your punch.  This means your impact isn't going directly into and directly out of the punch.  If your punch slide across the surface then it's like striking a match and your skin comes off.  Everything must go into the bad and directly off it.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 21, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Takes a while to build up the thick skin like the big knuckles to take the beating of the heavy bags particular the canvas one, it's very abrasive on the skin. Wearing gloves is cheating!!!


Canvas heavy bag and no gloves is the only thing I know.  It will let you know right away if your punching isn't efficient.  If you do it correctly the skin should get tough but your knuckles won't look big or ugly.  In my 20's I punched a canvas bad (the cloth kind) the cloth kind, for 6 days a week for 2 years and my knuckles never got big and ugly.  The knuckles got big think but you couldn't tell if I punched the bag or not. 

Lower the power of the punches until you are able to punch the bag without sliding your fist across the bag. This will help build up your knuckles without taking the skin off.  By the time you get the hang of it, you should feel the difference in your knuckles.  You won't be able to see it, but you will be able to feel that the skin is growing ticker.

I have some purchases coming up soon,  I'll try to remember to make a video of how I punch a heavy bag.  It's been a while since I hit one so most of my knuckle conditioning is gone with the exception of knuckle push ups which is more conditioning of bone and not the skin.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 21, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> What are you striking to make the skin peel?  If you hit through something then you create the abrasion.  But if you hit into a bag and don’t scrape the surface, then No abrasion.


Most people punch with gloves on so they never know that they are striking that bag like a match head.  This should be the universal logo for punching a bag without gloves, because it will let you know of those little things that matter a lot like punching across a target or sliding the fist back after making an impact.  lol


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## Flying Crane (Jul 21, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Heavy bags. Circle punch is a slapping type punch. When the bag moves while you follow through, it scrape a little. Repeat enough times, it will burn.
> 
> Same as normal punch, we all have to go through the stage of peeling the skin off on the big knuckles until the skin gets tougher. It just takes time.


No, you don’t need to do that.  I use this strike on the heavy bag a lot.  I never scrape the knuckles.  Perhaps there is a learning curve In the beginning, but you should not perpetually scrape the knuckles, nor be relying on a callous or something.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 22, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Oh man, is iron palm training a *SCAM*?!!!


May I ask

- Who taught you the iron palm training?
- Did you use the iron palm medicine when you train?


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## Alan0354 (Jul 22, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If your skin is peeling off then it is most likely that you are swiping your punch.  This means your impact isn't going directly into and directly out of the punch.  If your punch slide across the surface then it's like striking a match and your skin comes off.  Everything must go into the bad and directly off it.


I am referring to just normal jab and reverse punch here. I know about going directly in and out, aiming a few inches into the heavy bag and focus the force to that point and get maximum penetration. I have been practicing this for years. That a good punch produce max penetration with very little movement of the bag going backward. This is basic stuffs.

BUT, you don't punch a single punch and stop the bag from moving before the second punch. I practice 4 or 5 punches in a sequence like jab, reverse punch to the face, then 3rd and 4th to the stomach and the 5th to the face. The bag is going to move particular when punching the stomach, one punch to the left side and one to the right. The bag is going to swing.

When the bag starts swinging some, you NEVER get 100% in and out, so you get the sliding surface even if you hit a perfect straight punch. If the skin on the knuckle is not trained, you are going to break the skin sooner or later. This not only happen on the first time punching, If you stop punching with bare hand for a month or two, you WILL break your skin if you do it hard for a few rounds on heavy bags. This is just the nature of the game. Just look at this video you linked. Look at how much the bag moves if you punch multiple punches:






If you don't want to break your skin, maybe putting a small bag on the wall and punch one punch at a time. That won't move and you are in control how straight in and out of your punch. But what is the use? The important thing is to punch a series of punches in the attack and you can focus to punch on the spot even if the bag move some.




Lastly and more importantly, I am 5'5",  I have to learn to punch up. My punch is never perfectly true to the surface to the bag. I have to prepare to fight someone that is 6' or taller!!! So, by default, it's going to be more abrasive to the skin.   In this note, I don't understand people punching the bag at the neck level.  * It's so so much easier to punch a good looking straight punch to the neck level*. Look at the video, a lot of his punches are to the neck, not to the face level even for his height. But still, when the bag moves, it's going to burn the skin. For me, I have to punch up. Believe me, it's a lot harder to punch up.

Back to the circle punch, when you hit the bag that is moving ( like in the video), the bag is going to rub the skin even if you circle punch perfectly.

You taller people take for granted and might not know how hard to punch up. Try it and you'll see. For shorter people like me, If I punch to my neck level, that's punching the upper chest of a tall guy!!! For what?


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## Alan0354 (Jul 22, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May I ask
> 
> - Who taught you the iron palm training?
> - Did you use the iron palm medicine when you train?


It's a school in my area, he had a video also. Iron palm is easy to train, it's only a repetitive hitting downward on the bag. I know all about using the chi from the abdominal to the shoulder and the hand is like a whip. These are basic stuffs. It's just a slap down with palm down, slap down with palm up, then chop and then 5 finger poke. There's no secret in this training.

No, I don't use the liniment that often, I do rub my hands afterwards. BUT, that's *NOT *the point. You can say that's the reason I got my carpal tunnel, BUT this is not what I complain about. My main complain is 3 years of training, I do NOT hit any harder than before. I tried on my kicking bag, I know enough what is a hard hit and what is NOT. AND IT IS NOT hard hitting.* If I can hit harder, it would still be worth it to get the carpal tunnel.*

I can hit harder with a closed fist like hammer fist in the same motion as iron palm without going through 3 years of practice. IT IS A SCAM. I do practice hammer fist.

I went back to the school to have the master check and they even said I did good. They even commented I can easily breaking two boards with it. And by breaking boards, I mean boards that ARE STACKED WITH *NO GAPS* IN BETWEEN. Another big scam is people put separators between boards so there's a space in the middle between boards. You break one, the momentum will carry your hand to break the second and the third boards for show. When I saw people doing demonstrations, I started laughing.

I am sure I can break at least 2 boards with no gap between. But I can break at least 3 boards(no gap) with a punch!!!  ALL the slapping of the bag is just to numb the palm so it's not that painful when slapping the surface, nothing more. You don't get stronger.

You get stronger by knowing how to strike, how to use the body to generate the force and use the hand like a whip. You don't need to destroy your hand to do that.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 22, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> When the bag starts swinging some, you NEVER get 100% in and out, so you get the sliding surface even if you hit a perfect straight punch.


The only time I had the problem that you are having is when I was hitting the bag incorrectly or with bad timing.  Once I got those things corrected, the worst that happened to my knuckles were that my knuckles would eventually get red and bruised from the impact.  There are certain points during the swing of a bag that I strike, so I'm always timing the swing and movement of the bag.   If the bag is swinging a lot then the punches may be pushing the bag.   To reduce the pushing of the bag you want to focus on getting your fist off of the bag at the right moment.  

Here are some things that help me.   When I hit the bag, I imagine I'm hitting the center of the bag.  Once I reach the center I remove my fist.  The reason visualize me hitting the center is that if I'm in a fight,  I don't want to punch the stomach muscles.  I want to punch the organs behind the stomach muscles. 

The other thing that helps me is that I imagine that the bag is red hot.  So I want to punch the center of the bag, but I don't want my fist to be on the bag for too long.  Even if I'm punching light, I'm still visualizing hitting the center of the bag and that the bag is hot.  You can almost think of it similar to a hot bucket of water.  With a coin that is in the middle.  You want to quickly get to the middle to grab the coin and then quickly remove your hand so that the water will stop burning.  You don't want to go beyond the middle, because the water will burn you longer than necessary.



Alan0354 said:


> Lastly and more importantly, I am 5'5", I have to learn to punch up.


Always train to punch your head level.  Even if a person is taller than you , their ribs, kidneys, and liver will still be in good punching range.  I've seen many people take a good head punch, but I've rarely seen anyone walk away from a good liver or kidney punch.  At 5'5" you should be trying to make that your target.  Ribs and everything below should be your advantage.

Just because the head is up high doesn't mean it's good to still try to punch the head.   Training to punch up will cause you to develop bad punching skills and incorrect punches.   If you want to learn how to punch the head of someone taller than you, then I recommend using a circular punch.  like the ones used out of Choy Li Fut.   Big punches allow you to punch higher up without sacrificing good punching technique because the punches travel in a big circle

5'5 is a good height as you are already lower than many of your opponents.  Use the advantages associated with being lower than your opponent.  



Alan0354 said:


> * It's so so much easier to punch a good looking straight punch to the neck level*. Look at the video, a lot of his punches are to the neck, not to the face level even for his height.


Don't be so focused on hitting the face.  You are 5'5" there's not much opportunity in that if someone much taller than you. There is a lot more you can attack that's lower than the face.



Alan0354 said:


> Back to the circle punch, when you hit the bag that is moving ( like in the video), the bag is going to rub the skin even if you circle punch perfectly.


You aren't looking for a perfect punch.  You are looking for an appropriate well timed punch



Alan0354 said:


> You taller people take for granted and might not know how hard to punch up. Try it and you'll see. For shorter people like me, If I punch to my neck level, that's punching the upper chest of a tall guy!!! For what?


I'm 5'9.  most people are taller than me.  When they are taller than me, then I don't punch up.  I attack their lower body because I know they can't defend it as quickly because of there height.   I don't try to punch for their face because it puts me into a bad position to reach out to them.    Sometimes you can make taller guys crouch and that's when you go for the head, but if they don't lower their head then go for it.    

Things that are within your range even with taller people.  (Ribs, kidney, liver, abdomen, heart, legs, knees, feet, neck.)   The only thing that is out of your range is the head.  But there are a lot of great options beyond just the head.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 22, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> The only time I had the problem that you are having is when I was hitting the bag incorrectly or with bad timing.  Once I got those things corrected, the worst that happened to my knuckles were that my knuckles would eventually get red and bruised from the impact.  There are certain points during the swing of a bag that I strike, so I'm always timing the swing and movement of the bag.   If the bag is swinging a lot then the punches may be pushing the bag.   To reduce the pushing of the bag you want to focus on getting your fist off of the bag at the right moment.
> That's the very thing that I have a different opinion. Remember the real opponent is not going to be stationary and wait for you to time. He is going to move around, in and out, left and right. The key to me is to be able to acquire the position as fast as possible, manage to stick it in and out. So I never wait to time to get into the best position. In fact, that's the reason I have TWO kicking bags as seen on the video I posted for cane practice. About 7 years ago, I hanged the second bag, I punch and kick one bag, immediately turn to the other and do the punching and kicking sequence, then immediately turn back to the first bag and acquire the distance and punch and kick and make sure I can go in and out, focusing a few inches into the bag and then pull back the punch like you describe later in your post. Particularly include the kicks, it always make the bag swing wildly, making it much harder to time and do good punches. BUT, this is closer to real life where you don't know where the opponent moves and have to adapt.
> 
> 
> ...


Please read my response in *blue* in the quote.

I want to specify, I don't have problem peeling skin on my big knuckles throwing punches even if the bag is swinging wildly as I described. I practice bare knuckle for a long time, I barely get it red. It's only when I do circle punches when I never use the second knuckles to hit the bag, that's when it hurts. Like I said, my bones and joints can take it just fine, I used to punching poles, it's the skin that never gone through the abuse. It's normal, just wait till it heel up next week and it'll get tougher.

These are all talk, anyone that do a lot of punching and have not done bare knuckle punching a heavy bag for a long time? Try do rounds on the bag like in the Choy Li Fut video bare knuckles. Let's see how many minutes the skin last before tearing. Just be careful and check frequently. Sometimes you might not feel it after the skin breaks. Keep punching after that, it will hurt later on!!!


We are on and off talking about adding a 3rd car garage. We only have two cars and barely drive enough to keep it alive. We are not buying another car, it's mainly for workout and my machine shop. Then I can put the two kicking bags farther apart to make it even harder to hit. Or even put a slam-man as 3rd target. Also, I can put weight equipment for weight lifting. Our problem is we have not decided where we are going to stay in the long run. We might want to move closer to the family 40miles up North towards San Francisco. We are living in the Silicon Valley now. Until we decide that, we don't want to add the 3rd garage. that would be very nice!!!


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## Alan0354 (Jul 22, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May I ask
> 
> - Who taught you the iron palm training?
> - Did you use the iron palm medicine when you train?


If only iron palm actually works, that will completely change the scene of MMA and UFC. Grabbling would not be so dominant. Look at these two videos on take down defense particular the one up against the cage in the Octagon.











In the first video, you sprawl and keep your center of gravity on top of the opponent instead of falling backwards. The back of the opponent is in perfect spot for iron palm to hit on the kidney or just the back bone and injure the opponent *IF* iron palm can actually work.

The second video is even more obvious. How many times you see the grabbler push the opponent to the wall of the cage and at a stand still for a long time trying to take down the opponent? You can actually take your time, aim and use your "chi" and give a good iron palm strike to disable the grabbler. You have the cage to help you. Hell, if only iron palm is NOT SUCH A SCAM, people easily change the whole scene of the UFC. Gracie would not be famous, Chinese Kung Fu would be revere in MMA instead of completely vanished.

That's the reason I committed to Iron Palm starting in 1994 thinking this would be a game changer. What a mistake, 3 long years.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 26, 2021)

I finally have a chance to try out circle punch. I actually saw it in slow motion a fighter throwing a circle punch with thumbs almost pointing downward like the video I posted in post #1. So I guess there are more than one way of circle punch. I tried that, I don't like it, I felt my elbow is more locked, meaning I would be putting more stress on the elbow and might be easier to injure myself. This one definitely out for me.

I tried punching with the second knuckles like GowGaWolf suggested, It felt good punching the bag but sadly opened up the wound on the second knuckle I peeled last week(not completely healed yet). But it felt good punching. Problem is it was the first time I tried circle punch on the 6X6 pole, that HURTS!!! It's going to take a while to toughen up the second knuckle!!! Painful!!! Problem is it has to be done because you can easily hit on the skull of the opponent as he is going to move around. That will hurt almost just as much as hitting the wood pole.

I tried Ridge Hand to compare, the feel is almost the same as circle punch like GowGaWolf suggested. I hit with the wrist joint which is a lot bigger and tougher than the second knuckles, I have been hitting the wood pole with Ridge hand already, it's a lot safer in this sense that my wrist joint can take some abuse.

I am going to give hitting with the second knuckles a little more time and see before I decide which way to go.

BTW, I freeze frame on UFC fights to look at the gloves, *The gloves don't seem to cover the second knuckles*. Is that the reason circle punch is used so often because it is truly bare knuckle hitting and more effective in knocking down the opponent? Ridge hand is lass effective because the wrist is padded and it's not going to hurt as much. Ridge hand can really be used like circle punch far as I concern, it's the same movement.

If I can just toughen the second knuckles, I like the circle punch better than Ridge Hand for sure. Just the second knuckles is so small!!!


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## geezer (Jul 26, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> If only iron palm actually works, that will completely change the scene of MMA and UFC. Grabbling would not be so dominant
> ...That's the reason I committed to Iron Palm starting in 1994 thinking this would be a game changer. What a mistake, 3 long years.


I did a little bit of iron palm training back in '79-'80. Didn't get very good, and don't remember too much about it except that if you strip away all the mysticism, chi, liniments, and ritualistic bag-hitting regimens there was some good stuff there involving using relaxed strikes, weight drop, using body structure and kinetic linkages, and so forth to develop power. And, of course the gradual hand conditioning so that you could strike hard without damaging yourself.

The problem is, the body structures involved to develop the striking power were _not very applicable to fighting._ Especially, if you are off balance, on the ground, or underneath. So my take away is that "iron palm" is kinda-sorta real, but just not very practical.

_Short-power_ is a real thing though. And very practical. Good boxers train it. My old escrima coach (also a former boxer) is in his 70s and he still has it. That's the real "iron palm"(without the silly hand conditioning).

As my old WT teacher said, "All that conditioning is stupid. You want to hit like iron? Get a hammer!"


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## Alan0354 (Jul 26, 2021)

geezer said:


> I did a little bit of iron palm training back in '79-'80. Didn't get very good, and don't remember too much about it except that if you strip away all the mysticism, chi, liniments, and ritualistic bag-hitting regimens there was some good stuff there involving using relaxed strikes, weight drop, using body structure and kinetic linkages, and so forth to develop power. And, of course the gradual hand conditioning so that you could strike hard without damaging yourself.
> 
> The problem is, the body structures involved to develop the striking power were _not very applicable to fighting._ Especially, if you are off balance, on the ground, or underneath. So my take away is that "iron palm" is kinda-sorta real, but just not very practical.
> 
> ...


What you described about relaxed strikes, using body from waist to shoulder to drop down are the *basic stuffs* same as punching. These are things you learn *at the beginning*. After that, there is *NO* mystery about Iron palm. It's is not as if there are some magic about Iron palm. That's the reason I said I did not hit any harder after 3 years because I learned NOTHING NEW. I got all those from punching the heavy bag years ago and don't have to ruin both of my hands.

Those stupid people talk really big about iron palm, glorifying it. They even talk about iron body by beating the body and rub with those stupid medicine. There are so so many BS in the Kung Fu circle it's not funny. I am so glad we have Xu Ziaodong taking on the Kung Fu masters and eat them up. He better be careful or he might disappear one day. There are a $20K price to anyone that can beat him in China. So far, he's still alive and talking trash.

BTW, if you just hit like iron palm but with closed fist like hammer fist, it hits harder and you don't have to hit the ball bearings 4 or 5 times a week for years with the palm that cause irreversible damage to your hands. That, I still practice hammer fist on the heavy bag. Try it, you can hit quite hard and is useful in some situation to the face.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 26, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> BTW, if you just hit like iron palm but with closed fist like hammer fist,


To hit on the collar bone, the palm edge strike is still better than the hammer fist.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 26, 2021)

My SC teacher like to use palm heel strike. He liked to use palm heel to hit on the table during MA discussion.

My long fist teacher has developed iron palm. He is 93 years old now and he has never used it on anybody in his life. He told me that in few years his hands were shaking and could not even hold on chopsticks. I do believe there is some risk there.

I have spend many years in iron palm training. I have used my favor hook punch and knocked down many challengers. But I have never used iron palm in any sparring, or challenge fight. Sometime I just think it's such a big waste of my training time.

As far as I know the iron palm finger tips training can be bad for the eyes. Also the back iron palm training can be dangerous for the blood vessel.

I still train my iron palm edge striking. One day when I no longer be able to use my fist, at least I can still use my palm edge. People ask me if I still do my chop chop stuff. I still do my chop chop stuff daily.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 27, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> The most maddening thing is 3 years, 4 days/wk, ruining both carpal tunnel, I don't think I hit harder than from day one.


I don't think iron palm training is really meant to increase the power of your strikes. My understanding is that it's intended to toughen your hands so that you can throw more powerful strikes without injuring yourself. Training to generate that power has to be done separately.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 27, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Problem is it was the first time I tried circle punch on the 6X6 pole, that HURTS!!! It's going to take a while to toughen up the second knuckle!!! Painful!!! Problem is it has to be done because you can easily hit on the skull of the opponent as he is going to move around. That will hurt almost just as mu


Using specific techniques with this fist will greatly reduce any chance of accidently striking the skull.  There's no need to bone hardening with these punches.  A punching bag should provide enough conditioning.  Start with light punches and only increase power as knuckle conditioning is improved. I personally wouldn't strike wood with these knuckles for conditioning.

When punching straight people will naturally tilt their head.  When punching to the side of the head people will turn their head exposing more soft areas. Provided that the see it in time. Most don't


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 27, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I tried punching with the second knuckles


When you throw a circle punch, your whole arm is a weapon.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 27, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Problem is it was the first time I tried circle punch on the 6X6 pole, that HURTS!!! It's going to take a while to toughen up the second knuckle!!! Painful!!! Problem is it has to be done because you can easily hit on the skull of the opponent as he is going to move around. That will hurt almost just as mu


Using specific techniques with this fist will greatly reduce any chance of accidently striking the skull.  There's no need to bone hardening with these punches.  A punching bag should provide enough conditioning.  Start with light punches and only increase power as knuckle conditioning is improved. I personally wouldn't strike wood with these knuckles for conditioning.

When punching straight people will naturally tilt their head.  When punching to the side of the head people will turn their head exposing more soft areas. Provided that the  person sees it in time. Most don't


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> When punching to the side of the head people will turn their head exposing more soft areas.


This is why one should train circle punch combo such as 

- hook, back fist, 
- hook, uppercut,
- hook, overhand,
- hook, horizontal hammer fist.
- ...


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 27, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I am going to give hitting with the second knuckles a little more time and see before I decide which way to go.


I'll show you how I train to hit with those knuckles.  It seems like you may be doing something incorrectly.  You shouldn't be feeling the pain and getting the damage that you are getting.  I have a punching bag and some punching mitts that I can demonstrate the correct training.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 27, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't think iron palm training is really meant to increase the power of your strikes. My understanding is that it's intended to toughen your hands so that you can throw more powerful strikes without injuring yourself. Training to generate that power has to be done separately.


If it is just for toughening the hand, once a week 5 minutes is plenty, or twice and 2 minutes. I do a lot of hand conditioning by punching the 6X6 wood pole for years and I am still doing it every week now. I practice once a week, 10 punches on the big two knuckles each hand, 10 on the last two knuckles. Then 10 on each elbow, 10 ridge hand on each hand and 10 hammer fist. Then 10 low shin kicks to the pole each leg to end the session. I have tremendous improvements doing this only *once a week*. I actually feel I hit harder on the heavy bag because the joints don't give anymore.

Their iron palm prescription is like 5 or 10 minutes 3 times a day. I injured my hands doing only one time a day 4 days a week. This is the very definition of OCD. Then they glorify it's like magic. There's no magic. Time is much better spent on practicing other things.

Last but just as important, try using the same motion of iron palm, but use hammer fist instead. You will find you hit harder than just the palm. Both are NOT that strong, at least hammer fist hit harder and you don't need to pound the ball bearings every day. Just the law of physics, you hit with the same amount of force, the smaller the area of contact, the higher the pressure it is. The area of the hammer fist is a lot smaller than an open palm. It's just simple physics.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'll show you how I train to hit with those knuckles.  It seems like you may be doing something incorrectly.  You shouldn't be feeling the pain and getting the damage that you are getting.  I have a punching bag and some punching mitts that I can demonstrate the correct training.


I think the skull is a lot harder than the heavy bag. Haha, I even tried knocking on my own head to proof!!! Believe me, I used the stuffings from the old kicking bags that I broke from punching to stuff at least the top part of the bag to make it harder, still, it's not like the skull.

I make it a point to choose the hardest kicking bag, ( I found Everlast to last the longest, tried Tuffwear, and another brand I don't remember, they don't last) but the top part where I punch is still very soft. I have to take the old stuffing from the broken to stuff it harder.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 27, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I think the skull is a lot harder than the heavy bag. Haha, I even tried knocking on my own head to proof!!! Believe me, I used the stuffings from the old kicking bags that I broke from punching to stuff at least the top part of the bag to make it harder, still, it's not like the skull.
> 
> I make it a point to choose the hardest kicking bag, ( I found Everlast to last the longest, tried Tuffwear, and another brand I don't remember, they don't last) but the top part where I punch is still very soft. I have to take the old stuffing from the broken to stuff it harder.


But you don't need the hardest bag to toughen the skin on the knuckles.  The skin will toughen up the more strikes that are done on the bag. 

It's sort of like walking without shoes. The more you walk outside without shoes the tougher the skin will get.  The skin of the feet will become tough without having to stomp the ground as hard as you can.  The conditioning of the skin for the knuckles will do the same thing.  It's not the same process as increasing the bone density of bone.  That's a different process.  

To get that extra layer of skin on those knuckles you start by hitting the bag lightly working driving the impact directly into the bag.  Then remove your knuckles from the bag without scraping the or sliding them across the bag.  If you do it correctly and not hit the bag too hard then you should be able to do this almost everyday without causing damage..  The skin will start building a thicker layer of skin without deforming the knuckle.

This type of durability isn't needed and you probably will cause more damage than anything else in the process. 





The knuckles just need to be hard enough to break ribs, damage organs and break facial bone.  A well placed punch does more damage than a brute force one that is thrown with concern of the target that you want to hit.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> But you don't need the hardest bag to toughen the skin on the knuckles.  The skin will toughen up the more strikes that are done on the bag.
> 
> It's sort of like walking without shoes. The more you walk outside without shoes the tougher the skin will get.  The skin of the feet will become tough without having to stomp the ground as hard as you can.  The conditioning of the skin for the knuckles will do the same thing.  It's not the same process as increasing the bone density of bone.  That's a different process.
> 
> ...


Ha ha, I am not crazy to punch a metal pole like this guy!!! I don't think I punch quite as hard, the wood pole do bounce and give a little. Also I don't punch that many times. only 10 times each hand. My hands look fine. You can see the spot I circled is the part the skin scraped off from circle punches. Funny I have a spot on the pinky as pointed by arrow that I got punching the heavy bag.






I don't punch that much, only once a week and heavy bag twice a week. The key is moderation and build up slowly.

I am too lazy to move the car out, I need the space to position the camera to take the video of punching. Maybe in a few days.

Like I said, the opponent moves around, even those people in UFC would be happy to just manage to hit the head of the opponent, they cannot afford to be choosy not to hit the skull, only the soft part!!! I don't believe in timing it to make the perfect punch so I don't scrape the skin. I make the bag move, I am aiming to stick the punch into the bag when the bag moves, make the pop sound, pull back fast and move the bag as little as possible and as quick as possible. I am not going to take the time to hit at the perfect spot at the perfect timing. Look at the video you posted on the Choy Lei Fut punching, it's a sequence of multiple punches, the key is to make the punch stick into the bag like in the video and the bag not swing wildly. You punch bare knuckle like in the video. if you are not used to bare knuckle punching, you will scrape your skin in minutes. I can guaranty you on this. If you have not punch bare knuckle like that for a few months( even you did that before), you will peel your skin.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 1, 2021)

I watched UFC Hall vs Strickland last night. Sean Strickland used circle punchs like what was shown in post #1 of this thread repeatedly throughout the fight. I use slow motion frame by frame to watch where the thumb at contact, the thumb was almost pointing down( more like 45deg down to be exact).






I am so mad today. I almost recovered from the scrap last week and started on my circle punches, then I accidentally scrapped my left big knuckle on the wood pole when I was trying to hit the bag with a hook punch. That's the problem when the space is not big enough. Not a big scrape, but still I have to watch out on that. More sat back!!!  I really need a 3rd car garage!!! Just for workout.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 1, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> ean Strickland used circle punchs like what was shown in post #1 of this thread repeatedly throughout the fight. I use slow motion frame by frame to watch where the thumb at contact, the thumb was almost pointing down( more like 45deg down to be exact).


That's because he only knows how to hit with the first knuckes of his hand.  If you watch closely you will see that one of his circular punches landed on the front of the skull.  If thew the punch the way that I described all of the punches would have landed on the side of the head and not the front of the head.  You can also see that he missed a lot of those punches as well.





Swinging like this will result in a weaker punch and an easier punch to see.  



JowGaWolf said:


> When punching straight people will naturally tilt their head. When punching to the side of the head people will turn their head exposing more soft areas. Provided that the person sees it in time. Most don't


Had he used the swinging method that I've been champion then this would have been a knock out.  This shows what I stated earlier (above).  He turns his head and exposes the back of his head.  Using the technique I've been telling you would have easily resulted in a KO and maybe death?  Because now the punch is landing on the back of the head. 

But because he uses this "thumbs down"  technique.  The punch doesn't land solid. @ 3:08.  It was a weak punch.




Here we see another reason this punch is weak.  Elbow is leading the punch.  This is extremely telegraphed and this time Hall ducks under it.  If this was a circular punch like I've been promoting then it would be possible to still land the punch even if he ducked.




This is what happens when my sparring partners try to duck.  Take note that my arm doesn't have that unnatural bend.  I'm hitting with the same knuckles you keep scraping up lol.  

She ducks under a hook punch.  Because that's what she had for lunch the  6 or 7 previous punches.  Normally if I was throwing a hook it would have landed right about here.  But because of how I throw my circular punches.  My horizontal punches start the same way that my vertical punches start.  





I because of punching with thumb up, It doesn't take much to turn my horizontal punch into a vertical punch and landing it on the weaker parts of the the head.  




I know you keep trying to find some truth in MMA with this punch, but I'm telling you there are a lot of draw backs to trying to do this type of punch with thumb down.  Don't let the fact that my sparring partner is female devalue the lesson or skill.  She used to fight competitively and she knew how to throw a punch some of which I ate and my knees buckled.

If I were you I would ignore anything that demonstrates doing this punch with thumbs down.  If you still want to punch with thumb down simply because you see in MMA then just be prepared to deal with the injuries that you'll get from punching like that.



Alan0354 said:


> I am so mad today. I almost recovered from the scrap last week and started on my circle punches, then I accidentally scrapped my left big knuckle on the wood pole when I was trying to hit the bag with a hook punch. That's the problem when the space is not big enough.


Change the length of the punch to fit the space.  Circular punches can be small in length or long in length.  I train in small spaces just to explore the limits of this type of punch.  The smallest area that I've been able swing this punch is a 3'5" x 3'5" area.  I'm 5'9" so If I can do this punch in an area that small then you should be able to do it there.  But again that's thumbs up and not thumbs down.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 1, 2021)

I don’t get this “thumb down” circular punch.  I’m having a hard time envisioning it in a way that makes sense.  

power for a circular punch comes from a strong root and rotation of the body.  Too many people just throw a hooking type punch with the arm and shoulder.  They fail to engage the body and the root.  It makes for a weaker punch.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 1, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I don’t get this “thumb down” circular punch.  I’m having a hard time envisioning it in a way that makes sense.
> 
> power for a circular punch comes from a strong root and rotation of the body.  Too many people just throw a hooking type punch with the arm and shoulder.  They fail to engage the body and the root.  It makes for a weaker punch.


If you watch the video in the post #1 of this thread and watch Sean Strickland. I am not saying it's right or wrong, it's just is.




JowGaWolf said:


> That's because he only knows how to hit with the first knuckes of his hand.  If you watch closely you will see that one of his circular punches landed on the front of the skull.  If thew the punch the way that I described all of the punches would have landed on the side of the head and not the front of the head.  You can also see that he missed a lot of those punches as well.
> 
> View attachment 27073
> 
> ...


Yes, the way you do the circle punch is easier and more natural to do. It's just interesting people fighting at UFC level do the thumbs down. I've seen another fighter did it exactly like yours also. I tried thumbs down, it's not natural and feel strange on the elbow. Thumbs up is a lot more natural for sure, just have to build up the second knuckle. I was so happy I am ready to do the circle punch thumbs up today, then I had to scrap my left big knuckle on the pole throwing a hook to the bag. I aimed at the bag and missed the pole in the path of the swing. The bag was swinging the way I go back and fore between the two bags and it swung too close to the pole.

I was hoping to have healthy knuckles, do a video and then you can critique on my punches. Now delay again.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 1, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I don’t get this “thumb down” circular punch. I’m having a hard time envisioning it in a way that makes sense.


It won't ever make since. It's the opposite of a horizontal hook with the thumb up. Do a horizontal hook to the head or body but turn your fist so the back of your hand is facing you and the thumb side is down.   It looks just like this but with a proper fist.  This is the position that your hand is in when it strikes the head. 

It's a useless punch because the mechanics of it will only allow you to strike head high.  It's only good for one strike and the angle doesn't allow the body to flow into a follow up strike.








A vertical fist thumb side up will allow you to do this.






People throw this punch because they think all punches should hit with these 2 knuckles.  So they twist their fist for the sake of only striking with these two knuckles.  Alan has a bad taste of Chinese Martial Arts so he doesn't trust it so he's looking outside of Chinese Martial Arts for answers and unfortunately this is one concept that MMA has completely wrong.  I'll tell this to any MMA fighter, show him or her the better punch and they would abandon the thumb side down punch..




It's the exact same punch that Chuck Lidell says it hurts big time to do.  This mess.  Only only needs to look at the mechanics and see that something is off.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 1, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> If you watch the video in the post #1 of this thread and watch Sean Strickland. I am not saying it's right or wrong, it's just is.


You aren't saying.  I get that and I know which way feels more comfortable to you and I'm glad that's it's thumbs up.  This is me making a big deal about it and that I'm saying that it's wrong, because I want to be on record about that.  If there are 2 things people should know about me, it should be 1. I'm male.  2. thumbs down is the wrong way to do this punch lol.  I hate that you had such a bad experience because of Iron Palm and this ranks right up there bad experiences.   This punch is like Sin Wrong.  lol.

This is what they are trying to throw. Pay close attention to 2:55, because he shows thumb side up as well.





Now lets look at some guys using it.  You'll see Thumb-side up and Thumb-side horizontal which is the only 2 ways this punch should be thrown.  You'll also see some hit with the same knuckles I highlighted.  You'll also see 1 of 2 things.  They either don't see it coming or they turned their head exposing weaker areas.  I don't know where the thumbs down punch comes from but it's garbage because it's bad body mechanics. lol.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 1, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If there are 2 things people should know about me, it should be 1. I'm male.  2. thumbs down is the wrong way to do this punch lol.


May be you and I are the only 2 persons who are interested in the "circular punch".


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 1, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I am ready to do the circle punch thumbs up today, then I had to scrap my left big knuckle on the pole throwing a hook to the bag. I aimed at the bag and missed the pole in the path of the swing. The bag was swinging the way I go back and fore between the two bags and it swung too close to the pole.


This is the basic punch that you should be training.  Your lead hand helps to launch the rear hand.  The waist helps turn the punch. The legs pushes into the punch and the whole body works together.

You don't have to lower and raise the body. He's just trying to demonstration with exaggeration how he's pushing into the punch and not pivoting.  I know those punches hurt the guy holding the mits, because the guy in the front will sometimes flinch before the punch lands. Looks like he's trying to resist all of that punch too, which is probably tearing up his shoulder as well.   

This should help give you a better idea of the mechanics.  I would recommend doing these punches just by swinging in the air at first,  This way you can be long with the punch and get the maximum range.  Just make sure you got lots of space.  Then once you are comfortable with that range you can start to shorten it as needed.  It's easier to work with this punch by knowing your maximum range.   Even before you swing, you'll have an idea of the objects within your maximum range.  This is the most basic punch.   Your lead hand knocks down your opponent's guard and clears the path for your rear hand to land.  This is the basic concept


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 1, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be you and I are the only 2 persons who are interested in the "circular punch".


yep like always.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 2, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You aren't saying.  I get that and I know which way feels more comfortable to you and I'm glad that's it's thumbs up.  This is me making a big deal about it and that I'm saying that it's wrong, because I want to be on record about that.  If there are 2 things people should know about me, it should be 1. I'm male.  2. thumbs down is the wrong way to do this punch lol.  I hate that you had such a bad experience because of Iron Palm and this ranks right up there bad experiences.   This punch is like Sin Wrong.  lol.
> 
> This is what they are trying to throw. Pay close attention to 2:55, because he shows thumb side up as well.
> 
> ...


In the second video, I thought most of them are just long hook punch, not circle punches. I can see Tyson threw a hook punch hitting with the big knuckles with thumbs up, not the way you show using the second knuckle. This I actually practice regularly. That's what I thought it should be done until I heard about circle punch here. You call this circle punch also? This is definitely feels most comfortable to me as I have been practicing it all along.

The circle punch with thumbs down feels stiff, I feel the whole arm is kind of locked, I cannot swing it like a whip like if the thumb is up. Just feel I can swing too hard and injure my elbow or something if I swing thumbs down because the whole arm is kind of locked as one piece.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 2, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> yep like always.


I am interested in circle punch also, there by having this thread. yes, it's from watching UFC, seems very effective and punch very hard at long distance.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 2, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You call this circle punch also?


In general when I think of Circular Punches,  I'm looking at how the power is generated.  Is the power generated from a linear motion or a circular one.  When you are standing in front of your opponent do your punches land on the front of your opponent or do they land on the side.  If they land on the front then they are linear,  If they land on the side of the head then it's probably circular.




Alan0354 said:


> In the second video, I thought most of them are just long hook punch, not circle punches. I can see Tyson threw a hook punch hitting with the big knuckles with thumbs up, not the way you show using the second knuckle.


I took a second look and you are right.  I fast forward the punch too far,  It wasn't until after the impact that it looked like he was hitting with those knuckles.  This is what I was looking at but it wasn't the initial impact.  This is the force of the punch straightening out his wrist.  But the impact is what you stated.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 2, 2021)

Lots of punches can be considered circular, including hooks and the overhead punches from the recent videos.  I even consider a straight punch to the nose a circular punch, because in the method that I train, we deliver the power to that punch in a circular way.  Most everything we do comes off a circular power method, so the entire method is circular, even when the path of a technique follows a straight line.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 2, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> In general when I think of Circular Punches,  I'm looking at how the power is generated.  Is the power generated from a linear motion or a circular one.  When you are standing in front of your opponent do your punches land on the front of your opponent or do they land on the side.  If they land on the front then they are linear,  If they land on the side of the head then it's probably circular.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now I start to see, circle motion that hit the side is circle punch, that includes what Tyson did. I called that "long hook" in my mind all the time and I do practice that. But there's a disadvantage that I feel. For boxing and even MMA, it work just fine because they wear the gloves. Literally it's the gloves that hit, not the knuckle. If I wear gloves to punch the bag, I can hit hard. BUT, if I go bare knuckle, I don't feel it work that well.

The reason is if I do "long hook" and land on the side of the face, the second knuckles( the one you use to hit in circle punch) are going to make contact first before the big knuckles. This serves as "cushion" or shock absorber to slow down the speed of the punch. So when the big knuckles finally make contact, the speed slowed down already. I do bare knuckle, I can feel the second knuckles contact the bag first and it never hit that hard.

Remember this is a "long hook", the face of the fist lands at 45deg instead of perfectly flat to the face(like the short hook), there is no way you can avoid not having the second knuckles landing first and slow the speed before the big knuckles making contact. For boxing with gloves, it doesn't matter as it's the gloves that make the contact, not the knuckles.

That's the reason I am so interested in the circle punch. The way you described you circle punch, you use the second knuckles to hit to the side, that is first contact and you get the full speed. This is same as Ridge Hand. Both hit hard. My issue is I need a lot of second knuckle conditioning. It's going to be a while before I can hit confidently with full force.

Ridge hand can hit hard, I've been practicing this also. One issue is if the opponent pull back, then I won't make contact with the wrist bone or the bone between the big knuckle and the wrist. Instead, the finger will bare the blunt of the strike and that can hurt!!! I think the way you do the circle punch is better IF I can condition my second knuckles to hit.

It is not totally true I avoid Chinese MA because of the Iron Palm. I do think about what is practical in actual fight. I criticize Wing Chun because of their sticky hand and their stands, but I do find their punch and the step kick very useful and have been practicing both particularly the punch. Wing Chun punch with the last two knuckles instead of the first two like boxing. Also Wing Chun punch has a nudging motion when punching. It punch with thumbs up in vertical motion. I don't know how to explain any better, I went on youtube and I don't see they explain that either. Bruce Lee did stress on it and he even showed the nudging motion. This help together with shoulder, waist and legs to add to the power. Remember I said I practice punching up to tall people. Wing Chun punch is perfect for that.

For punching up to tall people, if i punch normally like boxing with palm facing down(thumb on the side), because of the upward motion, the second knuckles are going to make contact first and slow the punch down as described before, it's not optimal. Wing Chun punch fits the bill perfectly hitting with the last two knuckles.

Also, the step kick of Wing Chun, you can see people use it in UFC a lot stepping on the knee of the opponents. Yes, I rely on UFC a lot to find what is useful in real life fighting. It is closest to a real fight compare all the rest. MMA fighting is the ultimate proving ground.


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 2, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be you and I are the only 2 persons who are interested in the "circular punch".


(not me)    

Amazing for a post with 132 responses.  I'm getting  CBS (circular brain syndrome.)


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 2, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> (not me)
> 
> Amazing for a post with 132 responses.  I'm getting  CBS (circular brain syndrome.)


Just know that with Wang, A Circular punch is going to be in the mix some where. He wouldn't be Wang without it lol


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 2, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Just know that with Wang, A Circular punch is going to be in the mix some where. He wouldn't be Wang without it lol


It's the Chinese wrestling must train skill.

https://i.postimg.cc/bwGyRtZF/Chang-double-spears.gif

Your arms act like insect long whiskers to feel the environment.





The most important application is you can use it to set up clinch such as "underhook".


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## Alan0354 (Aug 2, 2021)

Impatient got the best of me, I went to the garage and did a 4 minute session of circle punches, I tried what JowGaWolf suggested using the second knuckles hitting thumbs up, I tried two or three punches thumbs down and tried Ridge Hand. The circle punch by JowGaWolf hit the hardest, harder than Ridge Hand, The thumbs down is ABSOLUTELY OUT. It actually hurt my shoulder, it's just not right. Funny why I can hit harder with JowGaWolf punch harder than Ridge Hand even though everything is so close. It just is.

I punch for 4 minutes and force myself to stop, just irritate the skin enough to help building stronger skin without breaking it. Everything is good, just going to do another few minutes tomorrow to slowly build up the skin.

But then when I do the punch on the pole, IT HURTS!!! I really have to do it very gentle right now and take it slowly. My problem with circle punch thumbs up is I supposed to hit with the heel of the palm together with the second knuckles. *I cannot do that*. This is because this would be very similar to Iron Palm hitting that partly using the heel of the palm also to hit. I still have carpal tunnel on the right hand and that might make it worst. I am trying very hard to avoid surgery. I had surgery on the left hand, took like 6 months to get back to normal regarding to punching and bench press. Also, I don't want to re-injure my left hand either!!! So I have to rely totally on the second knuckle.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 3, 2021)

Stop hitting the pole.  You will re-injure yourself.   Just work it on a heavy bag.  Seriously.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 3, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Impatient got the best of me, I went to the garage and did a 4 minute session of circle punches, I tried what JowGaWolf suggested using the second knuckles hitting thumbs up, I tried two or three punches thumbs down and tried Ridge Hand. The circle punch by JowGaWolf hit the hardest, harder than Ridge Hand, The thumbs down is ABSOLUTELY OUT. It actually hurt my shoulder, it's just not right. Funny why I can hit harder with JowGaWolf punch harder than Ridge Hand even though everything is so close. It just is.
> 
> I punch for 4 minutes and force myself to stop, just irritate the skin enough to help building stronger skin without breaking it. Everything is good, just going to do another few minutes tomorrow to slowly build up the skin.
> 
> But then when I do the punch on the pole, IT HURTS!!! I really have to do it very gentle right now and take it slowly. My problem with circle punch thumbs up is I supposed to hit with the heel of the palm together with the second knuckles. *I cannot do that*. This is because this would be very similar to Iron Palm hitting that partly using the heel of the palm also to hit. I still have carpal tunnel on the right hand and that might make it worst. I am trying very hard to avoid surgery. I had surgery on the left hand, took like 6 months to get back to normal regarding to punching and bench press. Also, I don't want to re-injure my left hand either!!! So I have to rely totally on the second knuckle.


This gives me a better idea of what you are doing.  You have to hit a softer target because you can't have impact on the palm.

Normally the palm would take some of the impact  but because of your injury those knuckles are taking on too much impact so you need something thank your knuckles can sink into like fangs.

The cheap way would be to use a towel taped to your heavy bag you can make it as thick as needed to allow you to hit hard without damaging you knuckles.

Keep in mind that second row of knuckles are more like knives and not hammers.  You'll dull the point if you keep stabbing the knife into wood.  Those knuckles can only hit hard targets when used with the palm as the point of impact.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 3, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Stop hitting the pole.  You will re-injure yourself.   Just work it on a heavy bag.  Seriously.


I'm not fond of the hard condition of the hand or knuckles.  That's too much like karate.  I can still get good conditioning without hitting hard objects.  The most that I need from hard conditioning is impact conditioning so that my arm an joints are prepared for the stress from hitting something hard.  Human bodies are made of soft flesh.  muscle is about as hard as the body gets and very few people are developed to where there muscles are like concreate.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 3, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This gives me a better idea of what you are doing.  You have to hit a softer target because you can't have impact on the palm.
> 
> Normally the palm would take some of the impact  but because of your injury those knuckles are taking on too much impact so you need something thank your knuckles can sink into like fangs.
> 
> ...


Actually, I have no problem hitting the heavy bag even after I stuffed it harder on the top part at all. I think I might have problem if I miss the opponent's face and hit the skull!!! People do move back and fore after you commit to a strike, if the opponent dug down a little, I'd be hitting the side of the skull and that will hurt. Thereby I train to hit hard surface.

I might get there starting out hitting lightly on the pole. That's how I started with the knuckles and shin and elbow. Now they can take the hard hit.

Believe me, I am not hitting the pole just to say I can do it. My main fear is the skull, they are as hard as the pole!!! It's better to take a little pain at a time than to hit the skull and disabled for a long time breaking the knuckle.

I learned my lesson, when I was young, I was breaking boards with friends, I broke my knuckle on my right hand, took a long time before I can hit hard even on the kicking bag. I felt the knuckle actually collapsed when I hit the boards( I already wore a thin bag gloves). Wearing a thin bag gloves is like the skin cover the skull.

I am not going crazy like the video you show, I do it for survival, 10 times each hand on each type of strike, once a week, that's it, no crazy stuffs. You can see the picture of my hands, nothing like those people. I am just doing the minimum. I do feel I hit harder after I start hitting the pole, not much, just noticeable. I feel the knuckles and wrist are stronger and not give as much, thereby I hit a little harder.......No magic, just help slightly........Ha ha, not like the hype of iron palm!!! ......................Yes, I am still bitter about it, it's hindering my circle punch.

Thanks

EDIT: I want to stress, I am not hitting the pole that hard, I'll make a video when I have a chance, nothing like those that trying to show off, this is just for survival.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 3, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I think I might have problem if I miss the opponent's face and hit the skull!!! People do move back and fore after you commit to a strike, if the opponent dug down a little, I'd be hitting the side of the skull and that will hurt.


This is where you'll need to learn some actual techniques. The techniques greatly reduce the chances of that happening.  Hitting the skull isn't even an issue if you are fighting someone much taller.

 But over all the striking techniques make a difference.  The video of the guy with his students shows him throwing 2 punches and not 1 punch.  There are also body motions and footwork techniques.  There's more to the punch than just swinging the arms.  All of it together greatly reduces the risk of hitting the skull.

Realistically you can bust your hand with a jab.  That's why it's important to be able to target and time punches and movement. That way you hit what you are targeting.  If you just swing wildly then expect lots of hand injuries.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 3, 2021)

.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 3, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I might get there starting out hitting lightly on the pole. That's how I started with the knuckles and shin and elbow. Now they can take the hard hit.


Hit the bag not the pole

Boxers never hit wood or poles and they still get really good knuckle conditioning without the damage.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 3, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> My main fear is the skull, they are as hard as the pole!!! It's better to take a little pain at a time than to hit the skull and disabled for a long time breaking the knuckle.


You have to get over this. You don't have to worry about this if you are really good with setting up your punches and attacks.

Your fear of breaking you hand is causing you to focus too much on making your knuckles hard.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 3, 2021)

A head has give because it is perched on a wobbly neck.  A thick pole does not.  Hitting a skull is not the same as hitting a wood pole.

stop hitting the pole.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 18, 2021)

Guys, I am back.....from all the skin blisters, peelings and more major, my right knee. I saw the doctor yesterday, got a magic shot(Cortisone) and it's magic. I hardly feel any pain after a full session of exercise lasting over 3 hours( of cause breaks in between) today. The blisters are all healed up( mostly for cane fighting exercise, a little from the second knuckles for circle punches). So I am back in business!!!

Guys, I do NOT punch the pole that hard. Like I said, I don't punch to do showing off, it's really for bone strengthening and I feel it works. I feel I can punch harder and more solid mainly because the wrist is stronger and the bones can keep up. Nothing like the "magic" promised by the SCAM iron palm and delivers NOTHING. This actually improve hitting power.....be that a little bit, but at least some. I made a short video of my pole punching exercise I do ONE time a week, lasting only about a minute. You can see I do NOT punch very hard, it does not do any damage to my hands. I have been doing this for like 10 years already, no side effect. I am a guitarist, I still can play guitar. My trade was electrical engineer and I still do a lot of designs and building at home after I retired. I constantly working with micro components 1mm to 2mm in size, doing soldering and all. I have absolutely no issue doing all those. I can comfortably say my punching the pole does no damage to my hands. Here is the video:






You can see I first punch with the two big knuckles, than I go higher to punch with the last two knuckle like Wing Chun style to punch high. Notice when I hit with second knuckles in the last part, I have hit a lot lighter, you can hear from the sound. When you hit hard enough, the tone of the sound is lower and has an echo sound from the garage, the circle punch sounds like tick tick tick tick. Still going to take a while to build up.

Don't you guys try to strengthen the foot and shine for leg kicks? Leg kicks are proven to be one of the most effective attack for years in UFC and other almost real fight. You kick the knee or the lower legs of the opponent, there is a good chance you kick the big bone of the opponent!!! If you don't strengthen your foot and shine, it might be more painful and disabling for you than your opponent you kick. I cannot see you try leg kicks without really train you foot and shine. Here is a video:




if you want to do low kicks, you better strengthen your own foot and shine. Talk is cheap, this is where rubber hits the road. Believe me, my 100lbs leather bag is very hard at the bottom. Even after all the pole kicking, sometimes when I kick the lower part of that bag, it hurts. This is only a heavy bag, not a big bone. Don't tell me about aiming and kicking accurately and it will be ok. This is REAL fight, your opponent is NOT going to stand there and let you aim. These fighters in UFC must be expert in MMA, if they break the bone like this, don't tell me you can do better. Sorry.

Like I was told that if you aim right and get the right distance, you won't break the skin punching a canvas bag. This is theoretical talk, Like I said, if you have not punch bare knuckle for a few months even though you practice punching heavy bag. Do it bare knuckles and do it like the Choy Li Fug guy in the video in this thread with multiple punches over and over and let the bag swing. See how many minutes your skin can last before you break the skin. Make sure you check your knuckles as you might not feel it in the mist of punching. Try not to break your skin, or else it will be painful later. Try it and come back and tell me.

I am going to post a video of my circle punches when I get a little better. Seriously, my main effort is on stick fight here, I really don't spend a lot of time in kick boxing. Been practice at home for over 30 years, I am no expert like you guys, but I am no beginner. I am not going to go much farther than where I am now.....if I can even keep it. My major thing is stick fight with a cane, that I feel I improve a lot the last few months because I am new at it.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 18, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Guys, I am back.....from all the skill blisters, peelings and more major, my right knee. I saw the doctor yesterday, gone a magic shot(Cortisone) and it's magic. I hardly feel any pain after a full session of exercise lasting over 3 hours( of cause breaks in between) today. The blisters are all healed up( mostly for cane fighting exercise, a little from the second knuckles for circle punches). So I am back in business!!!
> 
> Guys, I do NOT punch the pole that hard. Like I said, I don't punch to do showing off, it's really for bone strengthening and I feel it works. I feel I can punch harder and more solid mainly because the wrist is stronger and the bones can keep up. Nothing like the "magic" promised by the SCAM iron palm and delivers NOTHING. This actually improve hitting power.....be that a little bit, but at least some. I made a short video of my pole punching exercise I do ONE time a week, lasting only about a minute. You can see I do NOT punch very hard, it does not do any damage to my hands. I have been doing this for like 10 years already, no side effect. I am a guitarist, I still can play guitar. My trade was electrical engineer and I still do a lot of designs and building at home after I retired. I constantly working with micro components 1mm to 2mm in size, doing soldering and all. I have absolutely no issue doing all those. I can comfortably say my punching the pole does no damage to my hands. Here is the video:
> 
> ...


If you need a cortisone shot, then you need to stop what caused that immediately. Cortisone feels like a magic shot immediately afterwards, but then the pain will come back unless you make a change in the coming months. Then you get another shot and it's less effective, while at the same time the underlying damage (that the shot isn't really fixing) continues to build. The cycle can very quickly increase and cause major issues with your hands. 

And just because you were doing it for 10 years already, doesn't mean it will stay without any effects. The effects for things like that normally start under the surface, so once you do start having them, they continue from there, much quicker than you'd expect.

Note: I am not a doctor. I've just trained with people who have done similar things as you are doing now, and watched what happened.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 18, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> If you need a cortisone shot, then you need to stop what caused that immediately. Cortisone feels like a magic shot immediately afterwards, but then the pain will come back unless you make a change in the coming months. Then you get another shot and it's less effective, while at the same time the underlying damage (that the shot isn't really fixing) continues to build.


I was thinking the same thing.  I have parents that get similar shots for back issues.  It helps address the pain but it doesn't fix the problem.  Pain lets us know that something is broken and it forces us to ease up or stop what we are doing.    When you don't feel the pain then it's impossible to know if the damage is getting worse or not.  At that point the person hasn't be aware of what they are doing more than ever.  Even if they don't feel the pain they have to have an idea of what the limits are even if there isn't pain.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 18, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I am going to post a video of my circle punches when I get a little better. Seriously, my main effort is on stick fight here, I really don't spend a lot of time in kick boxing. Been practice at home for over 30 years, I am no expert like you guys, but I am no beginner.


None of us are experts.  We probably did something incorrectly or have seen people do things incorrectly and we learn from that.  I may talk like I know everything but I don't.  I just have a lot of experience of doing things and seeing things done incorrectly.

I now understand why the skin peels off the the second row of knuckles.  You pull down like a cat scratching a pole.   Strikes go straight in and are pulled straight out.  Since you want to strike the wooden board, I'll show you a better way to condition those knuckles than using the wooden board.   I'll see if I can make the video this week.

It will help you accomplish the same goal but with less damage to your fingers and joints.  I still think that canvas bag would be a better conditioning tool so long as you aren't sliding your knuckles across it.


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## Martial D (Aug 18, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is where you'll need to learn some actual techniques. The techniques greatly reduce the chances of that happening.  Hitting the skull isn't even an issue if you are fighting someone much taller.
> 
> But over all the striking techniques make a difference.  The video of the guy with his students shows him throwing 2 punches and not 1 punch.  There are also body motions and footwork techniques.  There's more to the punch than just swinging the arms.  All of it together greatly reduces the risk of hitting the skull.
> 
> Realistically you can bust your hand with a jab.  That's why it's important to be able to target and time punches and movement. That way you hit what you are targeting.  If you just swing wildly then expect lots of hand injuries.


I take it you've never boxed with someone that knows how to box.

If the other guy has his chin tucked and his hands up, you'll be looking at a whole lot of forehead. Unless you are orders of magnitude faster than him(taller or not) that head can dip faster than your hand will travel to his head. 

This obviously doesn't mean you'll never connect on chin or nose, but to say there is no risk of punching the skull is ... misleading to say the least.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 18, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> If you need a cortisone shot, then you need to stop what caused that immediately. Cortisone feels like a magic shot immediately afterwards, but then the pain will come back unless you make a change in the coming months. Then you get another shot and it's less effective, while at the same time the underlying damage (that the shot isn't really fixing) continues to build. The cycle can very quickly increase and cause major issues with your hands.
> 
> And just because you were doing it for 10 years already, doesn't mean it will stay without any effects. The effects for things like that normally start under the surface, so once you do start having them, they continue from there, much quicker than you'd expect.
> 
> Note: I am not a doctor. I've just trained with people who have done similar things as you are doing now, and watched what happened.


I got x-ray, everything is normal. It is strange, one day I finish exercise, nothing hurts, took a shower and walked down the stairs and the pain came on. I tried to work it out and kept experimenting with different exercises, nothing helped. I first thought it was the front kick, but it's not. Finally I kind of suspect when I knee the heavy bag, it hit the very spot that hurts. I stop kneeing the bag since last week and the knee got better. Also I started icing the knee and that really helps. When I went to the doctor, I was better already. The doctor even gave me a choice whether to take the injection, but I have very good result on the injection on my left knee 3 years ago, it holds up really well.

Hopefully it's the kneeing of the heavy bag that caused it, I am not kneeing the bag with my right knee anymore.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 18, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> None of us are experts.  We probably did something incorrectly or have seen people do things incorrectly and we learn from that.  I may talk like I know everything but I don't.  I just have a lot of experience of doing things and seeing things done incorrectly.
> 
> I now understand why the skin peels off the the second row of knuckles.  You pull down like a cat scratching a pole.   Strikes go straight in and are pulled straight out.  Since you want to strike the wooden board, I'll show you a better way to condition those knuckles than using the wooden board.   I'll see if I can make the video this week.
> 
> It will help you accomplish the same goal but with less damage to your fingers and joints.  I still think that canvas bag would be a better conditioning tool so long as you aren't sliding your knuckles across it.


Thanks

I don't scratch the pole doing circle punch, it might look that way, but I lift it off the surface.


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## Koryuhoka (Aug 18, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> What exactly is circle punch. I went on youtube to look and this is the only one I found and I was told this is not right:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This technique exists in Goju Ryu, in the kata called Sepai, and it is known as the whipping fist. Here is the thing - No one on a forum such as this can, or should even be attempting to teach this, or any technique. There are certain dynamics involved in the proper execution of this, or any other technique. I would only teach the deeper understandings of my art to a good student, and only within the context of the kata. Martial arts theory is for those who are committed. They get the full transmission.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 19, 2021)

Martial D said:


> I take it you've never boxed with someone that knows how to box.


My Jow Instructor was an amateur boxer before he did Jow Ga Kung fu.  I also had a co worker in the past who was also an amateur boxer as well.  Both had really nice and crisp jabs that I had the hardest time to read.  That experience helped me to realize that I read elbow movement to read jabs, which becomes useless when fighting someone wearing boxing gloves.   The boxing gloves are big enough to hid the elbow movement that I read.  So it was like the jabs were just teleporting in.



Martial D said:


> If the other guy has his chin tucked and his hands up, you'll be looking at a whole lot of forehead. Unless you are orders of magnitude faster than him(taller or not) that head can dip faster than your hand will travel to his head.


Because circular punches take a longer path, people usually react too soon which gives me enough time to see the dip and to change the direction of in pack.  It is easier to turn a horizontal circular punch into a punch that moves into a more vertical strike.   I have a video of this both against the amateur boxer who was my instructor and a Sanda Student.

Circular movement changing direction horizontal and vertical directions.  His movement never returns to chamber like a jab.





This is the best way I can explain the circular movement, without posting a video of me doing it.  Maybe this picture would help.
This punch started out as a horizontal punch. She correctly ducks it with the expectation that it would fly over her head.  But it doesn't take munch energy to change the direction of this punch because it travels a much longer path than a jab.  This type of circular punch never returns to chamber like a jab.





From horizontal to vertical.


j


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 19, 2021)

Swing blindly like this and you'll probably break your hand on the skull.  You can clearly see in this video there is no setup of techniques which is why it looks like wild swinging.


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## Martial D (Aug 20, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> My Jow Instructor was an amateur boxer before he did Jow Ga Kung fu.  I also had a co worker in the past who was also an amateur boxer as well.  Both had really nice and crisp jabs that I had the hardest time to read.  That experience helped me to realize that I read elbow movement to read jabs, which becomes useless when fighting someone wearing boxing gloves.   The boxing gloves are big enough to hid the elbow movement that I read.  So it was like the jabs were just teleporting in.
> 
> 
> Because circular punches take a longer path, people usually react too soon which gives me enough time to see the dip and to change the direction of in pack.  It is easier to turn a horizontal circular punch into a punch that moves into a more vertical strike.   I have a video of this both against the amateur boxer who was my instructor and a Sanda Student.
> ...


Ok. But you didn't even address what I wrote, which was a response to your claim that punching the skull isn't even an issue(if the opponent is taller).

Even the best professional boxers hit skull. I don't care what your jow gar system teaches, what you said is patently false and seems to betray a lack of real experience.

Do you realize that gloves are hand protection?


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 20, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Ok. But you didn't even address what I wrote, which was a response to your claim that punching the skull isn't even an issue(if the opponent is taller).


A smaller person's strikes naturally land on the lower parts of the skull because of the angle that they are hitting at.  

In terms of fighting 2 or 3 inches taller than me = same height.  The reason I say this because stance level changes are typically in that range.  If a person is significantly taller then their advantage is not to put their head within their punching range.  

When a taller person points their fore head down then attack the sides of the head.  If your opponent is significantly taller than you then don't attack the head as it will be too far.  Attack the lower parts of his body until the head comes into range.  

If you do not use techniques that allow you to strike the side of the head or that allow you to attack the harder parts of the head, then these aren't options for you.  I can literally strike your forehead with my fist and never damage my knuckles.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 20, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Even the best professional boxers hit skull.


My personal opinion about professional boxers that wear gloves, is that they often hit the skull, simply because the boxing gloves allow them to do so.  In short, gloves allow you to get away with stuff that you can't do when fighting without gloves.

One only needs to compare bare knuckle boxing to see how the approach to striking is different.  Just like boxers with gloves can really put all into their punch when hitting the heavy bag.  Bare knuckle fighters have to be more mindful about how they punch the heavy bag.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 20, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Do you realize that gloves are hand protection?


I hit the heavy bag without gloves and I do accuracy striking drills to help develop the hand and eye coordination that I use.  I may spar with MMA gloves but I don't train to fight in them.   Boxers are the opposite.  They train to fight in gloves.

Many TMA systems are like this.

The biggest challenges for me and wearing boxing gloves is the difficulty of me actively maintaining my Jow Ga fist structure and the extra weight.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 20, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> My personal opinion about professional boxers that wear gloves, is that they often hit the skull, simply because the boxing gloves allow them to do so.  In short, gloves allow you to get away with stuff that you can't do when fighting without gloves.
> 
> One only needs to compare bare knuckle boxing to see how the approach to striking is different.  Just like boxers with gloves can really put all into their punch when hitting the heavy bag.  Bare knuckle fighters have to be more mindful about how they punch the heavy bag.


It isn’t only the gloves, but also the wraps that support and protect the wrists and knuckles.  That lets you slam away as hard as you can, without injury.  But the wrists and hands then do not develop the strength to withstand landing those punches without that support, and leaves the door open to injury.  If one wants to be able to defend themselves outside of a competition ring, then time on the heavy bag without wraps and gloves is important.  Develop that ability to strike effectively without injury, without the support and protection.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 20, 2021)

HI Guys

Internet was down for 2 days, finally it's up.

I am not going to get into the discussion of punching forehead and all as I am no expert and I never have to punch someone out side of sparing. I'll take your words.

BUT one thing I know, I am NOT afraid of punching the forehead or skull of the opponent. I always punch heavy bag bare knuckles for the last 30+ years. One of my bag is 100lbs and I have to stuff the top part harder with old fillings taken from the old bags before I dump it away. My bags are NOT soft. I have seen punch bags that's like air and dent in like 4" or more when I punch. Never have I injure my hands, no wrapping needed. I credit that to punching poles that make my fist and wrist stronger. Whether you guys agree or not, This is how I roll and it works for me.

I am sure not afraid of punching the head, I am quite sure I'd rattle his brain more than hurting my knuckles. As I said, I punch poles not for show, but for strengthening the bones and wrist.

When it comes to bags, I always like the good old EverLast 70lbs canvas bag. Just need to stuff the top part and it's reasonably hard, not like some of the boxing bags, man, they are whimpy. Problem is it's hard to find canvas bags anymore. Tuffware used to have it and it's good, then they changed to those black nylon or whatever cover. I broke two bags in two weeks. I got my refund back, but just the hazels of hook and unhook the bag, drive it back and fore. Now both my bags are full of cracks and holes, I keep taping it up. I need new bags but don't know what to buy.

Can you imagine, you wrap hands and wear gloves and punch everyday, then when in self defense situation, the first punch you throw and you break your hand and twist your wrist, what good does that do? Say pretty please, let me wrap my hands before we fight?!!!)


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 20, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> It isn’t only the gloves, but also the wraps that support and protect the wrists and knuckles.  That lets you slam away as hard as you can, without injury.  But the wrists and hands then do not develop the strength to withstand landing those punches without that support, and leaves the door open to injury.  If one wants to be able to defend themselves outside of a competition ring, then time on the heavy bag without wraps and gloves is important.  Develop that ability to strike effectively without injury, without the support and protection.


Exactly.   This is one of my classmates from  many years ago punching the heavy bag.  He has punched the heavy bag many times before so I guess his mind was drifting and he landed that punch wrong.  His wrist folded.  There's no tape to hold the structure.  Drive the power of the punch at the wrong angle and it will exit out of the wrist causing it to bend like this.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 20, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Exactly.   This is one of my classmates from  many years ago punching the heavy bag.  He has punched the heavy bag many times before so I guess his mind was drifting and he landed that punch wrong.  His wrist folded.  There's no tape to hold the structure.  Drive the power of the punch at the wrong angle and it will exit out of the wrist causing it to bend like this.
> 
> View attachment 27134


I’ve done that plenty of times myself, probably every session on the bag.  Part of that education is that you learn to sense when that is happening, and pull back before injury.  You develop the strength and learn the proper angles and structure, and the sensitivity to the problems that may arise.  Very important stuff.  You learn to punch hard, without injury, even when it goes somewhat awry.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 20, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Exactly.   This is one of my classmates from  many years ago punching the heavy bag.  He has punched the heavy bag many times before so I guess his mind was drifting and he landed that punch wrong.  His wrist folded.  There's no tape to hold the structure.  Drive the power of the punch at the wrong angle and it will exit out of the wrist causing it to bend like this.
> 
> View attachment 27134


I don't know how hard is that bag, my guess it's not that hard, you can see the whole bag bent. I know a lot of bags are like this, very whimpy. I am sure he won't bent my bags and dent in like this.

I am not that good, I never run into this bending my wrist. I don't know how hard I can punch as I don't have a way to measure. I know I am not a light puncher. I don't have people holding the bag like this for me, my bags swing particularly when I mix kicking and punching and I do two bags alternatively. You can never concentrate, punching a perfect punch every time. BUT that's the whole point, that you can aim, punch a reasonable power punch under imperfect condition where target is moving around and you don't have time to set up. I really do NOT think it's useful to have people holding the bag for you and you take the time to set up and try to do a perfect punch so you don't injure yourself. That's a false sense of achievement.

To me, I credit this to pole punching, knock on wood, I never once buckle my wrist like this. Particular I punch relax, I do notice there are times when I contact the bag, my wrist is still soft, but never have problem.

I particularly like the Choy Li Fut guy in the video you show. You can see he's relax, penetrating the bag. I have that bag, I can attest it's not soft particular in the mid section he's punching. It's going to be very hard for anyone to bend that bag, unlike some of those boxing bags that's like punching air.........looks good though that you dent the bag 4" in and all. It's like punching air.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> When it comes to bags, I always like the good old EverLast 70lbs canvas bag. Just need to stuff the top part and it's reasonably hard, not like some of the boxing bags, man, they are whimpy. Problem is it's hard to find canvas bags anymore.


You can still get them but they don't sell them stuffed.  They just sell the bag and you have to stuff it yourself.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 20, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You can still get them but they don't sell them stuffed.  They just sell the bag and you have to stuff it yourself.


I know, but it's not that easy. They put sand in it, like the Tuffwear, I broke two of them, it had a tube inside to hold the sand, the tube got punched and kicked out of shape, it will not survive in a new bag. I had bag leaking sand before!!!

That's the reason you see my bags are all taped up, pretty soon, they'll have more tape than the original cover!!! I know I can still get the leather EverLast bag, but $$$$!!!  I punched a red bag in my friend's home, it felt quite solid like my canvas bag. I believe it's 70lbs also.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't know how hard is that bag, my guess it's not that hard, you can see the whole bag bent. I know a lot of bags are like this, very whimpy. I am sure he won't bent my bags and dent in like this.


I don't know about whimpy.  I just know it's a heavy bag.  It's wasn't the hardest bag that I've hit.  But it had the correct amount of give which is important.  I have a Whimpy puching bag filled with mostly plastic bags.  You can hit that bag as hard as  you want and the bags will just absorb the energy as if you threw a weak punch.  No one in the school would hit this bag with the same force.

I think you just like hitting hard objects.  That seem to be where your preference is, I'm not sure why. But I'll explain some benefits of punching a bag that gives.

Benefits of punching a bag that gives.
1. You can punch it more often and harder than a bag that doesn't give.  This allows you develop punching power through structure and conditioning.  If you are always punching something that is hard then you'll never develop punching power.  You'll just end up with hard knuckles and weak punches.  You have experienced this yourself.  Iron palm didn't make you hit harder.

2. You can get instant feedback on your punches. When you punch a bag that gives, you will get a quick glimpse of the impact that your fist is making.  If it's small dent that means you getting good impact with the knuckle.  If you see a big dent then you know you are hitting with mostly the flat of  your fist.  For a fraction of a second  you can see how power changes affects the impact.  This also trains the eyes to recognize similar effects when you hit flesh during sparring.

3. Bags that give will keep the energy from going back into your arm and causing unnecessary stress on the bones, muscles, and, joints (ligaments and tendons).  

4.  Bags that give develop a soft spot.  The bag starts off as hard but if you keep hitting the same spot then you notice that the bag becomes softer.  Hitting the same spot helps develop accuracy through touch.  It's one thing be able to hit something you see and it's something totally different to feel.  

5.  A bag that gives also provides feedback that can be captured on video.  You can analyze the punches and the power by what the bag looks like.  For example the picture below is a a good punch, in terms of power delivery.  If you look closely at this picture you can see where the bag jumps off the first row of knuckles,  You can see how force was delivered into the bag.   Effective and powerful punches will make the bag react differently than weak and less effective punches.    Being able to see this allows you to make changes and corrections as needed.  It helps you to identify things you may not be aware of.




6. Punching bags that give don't just condition the knuckle, but they also condition in between the knuckles


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't have people holding the bag like this for me, my bags swing particularly


Bag holders help reduce bag spin and swing.   When you hit to the left or right of a bag it will spin. This means the punch landed off center.  The bag holder also provides feedback on the strikes.  They can tell if your punch was weak or not by what they feel through the bag.





Do you need someone to hold the heavy bag? Nope.  But it helps when you got someone who can read the feedback from back.  I've held the heavy bag from people who thought they were killing the bag.  But on my end, I just wasn't feeling what they the were feeling.  To me the punches felt weak even thought the sound was loud when the fist landed on the bag.   Then I've had people who hit really ard hit the bag and it doesn't make that loud slapping noise.  Right away I know they are driving that knuckle into the bag with force because it feels different than a hard punch that doesn't do it.

This is a good video about punching a heavy back.  This covers some things that we have already discussed.  I'm just posting because it's a good explanation with visual.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 20, 2021)

I like to punch hard bags because the head is hard!!! Even if you punch the chest, it's not soft, it's at least as hard as the hard bags. It's just common sense that if you want to punch, you better get your fist ready to hit something hard like the skull and forehead.

We have those type of whimpy bags in the gym where I went to before, they are heavy and big, but they are soft. They offer no resistance at all. Apparently they don't last either, they must be changing the bag every two to three months. It's former Gold's gym, not a boxing gym. I don't see people punching it hardly. Those vinyl cover just don't last.

I like the video you posted:




*This*, I consider good punches. I know this bag as I have a few over the years. You can see he dig into the bag, the sound is crisp on every punch. The bag doesn't move that much, you do NOT need someone to hold the bag. This show the energy is penetrated into the bag instead of pushing the bag around.

Only thing I can criticize is he punch at shoulder level, it's the easiest way to punch. You should punch to the head!!! It's *NOT* so easy, believe me. Try it. Particular you punch up to a taller person.

I absolutely do not want people to hold the bag for me, it's everything against my believe. I believe in being able to punch in the most imperfect condition and still be able to land a decent punch, not have everything perfect so I can look good punching. Like I said many times, I intentionally have two bags so I go back and fore, kick it and let is swing to train to be able to acquire the target faster, punch with reasonable precision and good penetration.

As for stress punching a hard bag, When I was in the class for almost 3 years, I went there 3 times a week, I went there 3 hours before the class and working non stop on the heavy bag. He had the Tuffware canvas bag that's very good and hard enough. Since that time, I always have a heavy bag and practice every week even though I don't practice that long. This continue from 1984 till today, I never have wrist and knuckle problem from that. I cannot see any good in punching a soft bag. I can't help but to repeat, the only time I injure myself is the SCAM iron palm.

My teacher put a lot of stress on punching, how to listen to the sound of a good punch. For a good puncher punching one bag, the bag should not even move much, you don't need anyone to hold the bag. If the bag moves a lot if you only punch one bag without kicking, you are not punching right.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> punch a reasonable power punch under imperfect condition where target is moving around and you don't have time to set up.


It's not up to your opponent create a "perfect target."  That's what your techniques do.   You don't punch when the situation is not good for punching.  You don't force your punch in.  You set up your opponent so you can strike him when he's least able to defend against it.  If you do this then you will have your "Perfect punch"

Punch when the timing is right, not when you feel like it.  If you do this then you should have a high percentage of good punches that land.  If the timing is never right then you'll need to go work on  your techniques more.

You get mileage when you aren't forcing punches and strikes in.  You get better results when you use your techniques to set up your openings.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 20, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's not up to your opponent create a "perfect target."  That's what your techniques do.   You don't punch when the situation is not good for punching.  You don't force your punch in.  You set up your opponent so you can strike him when he's least able to defend against it.  If you do this then you will have your "Perfect punch"
> 
> Punch when the timing is right, not when you feel like it.  If you do this then you should have a high percentage of good punches that land.  If the timing is never right then you'll need to go work on  your techniques more.
> 
> You get mileage when you aren't forcing punches and strikes in.  You get better results when you use your techniques to set up your openings.


It's easy to say doing armchair quarterbacking. You cannot assume the opponent is not as good. You wait for an opening, it might never come.

Even when you think you have a perfect timing, once you commit, the opponent might move and you hit the wrong place. It's too idealistic to think you can hit it right every time. That's where conditioning comes into play. Like I said, I don't think I would be afraid of punching on the forehead because I put in my work in strengthening my knuckles and wrist.

Look at the UFC again, look at how good those people move, you seriously think you can time and land a solid hit every time on those people. You would be lucky to land one out of 10 if that. You think the video I posted of the guy completely broke his legs didn't know how to kick? I bet he is good enough to have his own school in order to make it up to pay-per-view!!! You think we ordinary people stand a chance to last a round inside the octagon? He broke his leg completely from trying to do a low kick. This is real world.

Forget UFC, one of our 2nd degree black belt that we consider very good.....got his butt whooped in the KPA match in San Jose back in the 80s. *PKA is CHILD'S play* compare with UFC. It's a different world!!!


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> The bag doesn't move that much, you do NOT need someone to hold the bag. This show the energy is penetrated into the bag instead of pushing the bag around.





Alan0354 said:


> I like to punch hard bags because the head is hard!!! Even if you punch the chest, it's not soft, it's at least as hard as the hard bags. It's just common sense that if you want to punch, you better get your fist ready to hit something hard like the skull and forehead.
> 
> We have those type of whimpy bags in the gym where I went to before, they are heavy and big, but they are soft. They offer no resistance at all. Apparently they don't last either, they must be changing the bag every two to three months. It's former Gold's gym, not a boxing gym. I don't see people punching it hardly. Those vinyl cover just don't last.
> 
> ...


I wasn't impressed.  He had some good strikes. I'll give him that, but I can tell that he still needs to work on his punching technique, and at the time of the video he probably knew that himself.  Had he punched the bag without gloves we would have seen the damage to his hands.  There was a lot of punches that didn't go directly into the bag.  Lots of punches that caused the bag to spin.  There were a lot of times where his punch when in straight but didn't come back straight.

Then there was this punch. There's that big wrist bend that happens when anyone punches with bad wrist structure.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> It's easy to say doing armchair quarterbacking. You cannot assume the opponent is not as good. You wait for an opening, it might never come.


I'm not arm chair quaterbacking.  I always try to speak from my experience.  If I speak of my own experience then I always know what is possible for me and what is within my experiences.  For me, after sparring with enough people I began picking up skill level really quick including that feeling that someone wants to  put me on the ground to finish the fight on the ground.  I've been fortunate and blessed enough to not have been attacked out of the blue.  I've never been in a street fight that I didn't think I could either stalemate or fight my way out of.  

Maybe it's the way that I look that helps protect me.  Most of my wife's friends are intimidated by me.  Someone is always asking her if she's afraid of me based on how I look.  When I was younger, I looked weak.  But as I aged fewer people wanted to take it that far with me.  Most people who can actually beat me up have no interest in doing so.  That's been my experience.



Alan0354 said:


> Even when you think you have a perfect timing, once you commit, the opponent might move and you hit the wrong place.


The only time this has happened to me is when someone was more skilled than I was or faster than I was.  At that point hitting their forehead was the least of my problem.  When this happens someone is usually eating a punch or a kick from a counter attack.

Remember most people who break their hands were trying to hit the head and succeeded in doing so., Which is why they broke their hand.  The timing was perfect,

Most people who have bad timing are usually the ones getting counter attacked.   This is what bad timing usually looks like.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 20, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I wasn't impressed.  He had some good strikes. I'll give him that, but I can tell that he still needs to work on his punching technique, and at the time of the video he probably knew that himself.  Had he punched the bag without gloves we would have seen the damage to his hands.  There was a lot of punches that didn't go directly into the bag.  Lots of punches that caused the bag to spin.  There were a lot of times where his punch when in straight but didn't come back straight.
> 
> Then there was this punch. There's that big wrist bend that happens when anyone punches with bad wrist structure.
> View attachment 27139


Like I said, when you do a sequence of punches, particular you hook, the bag will spin some. He sure punch hard enough and with a lot of speed and he doesn't have someone to hold the bag either.

His jab is very stiff, from the bag moving, it happens. To me, this is MORE realistic that people move and you are going to miss.

Wait until you actually kick and punch the bag, it will spin and move even more. Then it's up to YOU to be good enough to to punch straight in. That's why I work hard to punch 2 bags so they move and all and try to have a good hit. This, you cannot practice with people holding the bag for you.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 20, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not arm chair quaterbacking.  I always try to speak from my experience.  If I speak of my own experience then I always know what is possible for me and what is within my experiences.  For me, after sparring with enough people I began picking up skill level really quick including that feeling that someone wants to  put me on the ground to finish the fight on the ground.  I've been fortunate and blessed enough to not have been attacked out of the blue.  I've never been in a street fight that I didn't think I could either stalemate or fight my way out of.
> 
> Maybe it's the way that I look that helps protect me.  Most of my wife's friends are intimidated by me.  Someone is always asking her if she's afraid of me based on how I look.  When I was younger, I looked weak.  But as I aged fewer people wanted to take it that far with me.  Most people who can actually beat me up have no interest in doing so.  That's been my experience.
> 
> ...


Maybe you are that good, I am not and I doubt many people are. I believe in practicing for worst case where I miss and still can survive. I don't count on situation being perfect and forget all the prevention like strengthening the knuckles and wrist.

This is more important to me in stick fight where I have a thread on how to prevent the stick from flying off my hands if I miss or accidentally hit something in the surrounding. Of cause the easy answer is DON'T MISS!!! but this is real world AND I am not that good. This is where I spent a lot of time lately. I learn how to do casting, pull back the stick like punch, don't go wild. I even design a loop with rope to go around my wrist. I plan for real life imperfect situation and ways I can recover if the worst case happens. I assume the other guy is better than me and I just want to survive in the self defense situation.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 20, 2021)

I guess I don’t practice for the best or the worst case scenario.  I just practice.  Period.

I practice to land hard strikes, consistently.  Sometimes that means I steady the bag between each strike, so I can really focus on form and structure and delivering the power.  Other times I let the bag swing more so I can work a bit on randomness and timing.  But none of this has to do with it being either worst or best case scenario.  Or, all of it does.  Either way is fine.  It is just practicing.  It all comes together.

I think a lot of people overthink this stuff.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 20, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Look at the UFC again, look at how good those people move, you seriously think you can time and land a solid hit every time on those people.


I'm flattered that people always think I'm so good that my first challenge fight should be against someone who trains to fight like I go to work.  This assumption that people like me and you will one day run into a UFC professional fighter and actually have a competitive fight is very unrealistic.  You may spar with them, but someone like you and me and some of the others on here aren't going to be fighting someone of that skill level anytime soon and if we did.  Having hard knuckles isn't going to give us an advantage in the fight.

If you or I would fight a professional MMA fighter, then that will just prove my point.  The MMA fighter will set up his punches and we'll eat them.  A professional boxer would do the same.  Professional boxers throw 55 - 60 punches a round.  Do you think you will last that many punches.  I don't think you can. I don't think I can.  The reason way is because between punch 1 -10 there will be a series of punches that land solid and it's going to be a high accuracy percentage.   We see this all the time in street fights where one fighter is more skilled than another.  There's literally videos on youtube that show this.

According one of the members here.  Fight Bite is a higher risk than breaking the hand on the skull.  One is more likely to punch a tooth, than the forehead.  Punching upward into a taller person's face with a jab seems like a good opportunity for this type of injury.




I'm going to change my signature to 
"Everyone thinks I'm so good with fighting, that I should fight a professional MMA  fighter to prove my point."  Talk about skipping the ranks.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 20, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I guess I don’t practice for the best or the worst case scenario.  I just practice.  Period.
> 
> I practice to land hard strikes, consistently.  Sometimes that means I steady the bag between each strike, so I can really focus on form and structure and delivering the power.  Other times I let the bag swing more so I can work a bit on randomness and timing.  But none of this has to do with it being either worst or best case scenario.  Or, all of it does.  Either way is fine.  It is just practicing.  It all comes together.
> 
> I think a lot of people overthink this stuff.


I'm the same way.  

Tough fists, hard punches, and hard kicks don't matter if a person can't land them.  A missed punch is a wasted punch and wasted energy.  If a person is good enough to land a punch then they should be good enough to be accurate with them.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 20, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm the same way.
> 
> Tough fists, hard punches, and hard kicks don't matter if a person can't land them.  A missed punch is a wasted punch and wasted energy.  If a person is good enough to land a punch then they should be good enough to be accurate with them.


And you don’t know if you are in the best of worst case scenario, or somewhere in between, while it is happening.  And probably not after, either.  It Can always be worse than it is.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 20, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm flattered that people always think I'm so good that my first challenge fight should be against someone who trains to fight like I go to work.  This assumption that people like me and you will one day run into a UFC professional fighter and actually have a competitive fight is very unrealistic.  You may spar with them, but someone like you and me and some of the others on here aren't going to be fighting someone of that skill level anytime soon and if we did.  Having hard knuckles isn't going to give us an advantage in the fight.
> 
> If you or I would fight a professional MMA fighter, then that will just prove my point.  The MMA fighter will set up his punches and we'll eat them.  A professional boxer would do the same.  Professional boxers throw 55 - 60 punches a round.  Do you think you will last that many punches.  I don't think you can. I don't think I can.  The reason way is because between punch 1 -10 there will be a series of punches that land solid and it's going to be a high accuracy percentage.   We see this all the time in street fights where one fighter is more skilled than another.  There's literally videos on youtube that show this.
> 
> ...


Ha ha, I think this guy still feel better than the guy that got punched on the teeth!!! It likely be a very expensive make over on the teeth. Take it from one that had a lot of oral surgery, $3,000/implant. Whole procedure takes about 3months. Insurance likely won't cover it.

I can't say for sure, but I think if you punch canvas bag bare knuckle regularly, I don't think the fist will be this bad after punching teeth. My hand really doesn't show much from punching bags bare knuckle, but the skin on the knuckles are tougher than the rest, it can take some beating.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 21, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Exactly.   This is one of my classmates from  many years ago punching the heavy bag.  He has punched the heavy bag many times before so I guess his mind was drifting and he landed that punch wrong.  His wrist folded.  There's no tape to hold the structure.  Drive the power of the punch at the wrong angle and it will exit out of the wrist causing it to bend like this.
> 
> View attachment 27134


Go slow to begin with then work up and stop if you feel your concentration waning.  I have had many close calls with punching the bag but never truely broke my wrist, i was always able to pull it before it broke, and i edventually got out of doing it wrong.  (dont copy that, i would have done light sparring on the bag/wore light gloves as well if i knew/had them respectively)

although, i havent gotten out of the issue of my elbows hurting and putting too much strain on them.    

As far as i recall, the boxers fracture is messing up a punch and hitting with your little fingers knuckle/not proper across the knuckles impact, i belive the wrist issues are the same, its not really about what you hit, more you hit it wrong.   (dont get my wrong shouldnt be in the habit of hitting the hardest part of the body or else it increases the risk, but its not as bad as you are 100% gurnateed to break something if you hit it first time, sods law says yes, but realtity says unlikely)

Addendum: just sae the fight bite, since my punching bag was wrapped to keep water off it, i ended up getting worse friction burns/marks off it, i also used the fact that i got a visable mark to assess where my knuckles were hitting as well.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 21, 2021)

Rat said:


> Go slow to begin with then work up and stop if you feel your concentration waning.  I have had many close calls with punching the bag but never truely broke my wrist, i was always able to pull it before it broke, and i edventually got out of doing it wrong.  (dont copy that, i would have done light sparring on the bag/wore light gloves as well if i knew/had them respectively)
> 
> although, i havent gotten out of the issue of my elbows hurting and putting too much strain on them.
> 
> ...


I used electrical tape on my bag. To make a small cross.  Horizontal fist had to land on the Horizontal strip.  Vertical fist had to land on the vertical strip.


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