# realistic self-defense



## bushidomartialarts (Apr 15, 2006)

problem:  training for real street self-defense is nigh-impossible.

MMA don't train all the way because it's against the rules, TMA can't train all the way because people would get maimed.  

the harder your train, the fewer 'killer shots' you get to use, otherwise your partner has to take three weeks off to heal.

so what's the solution?  anybody got some good drills or methods?  or even just whacky ideas?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Apr 15, 2006)

Redman suits.  Lots and Lots of padding?

How do the cops and military do it?


----------



## bushidomartialarts (Apr 15, 2006)

i talked with a guy who just got out of the state academy here in oregon.

his hand-to-hand was almost entirely based on getting room enough to draw his weapon.  they did mostly situational stuff, making sure you kept your head about you.  he was punched and kicked, manhandled, but no 'this guy is gonna tear your head clean off if you don't stop him' stuff.

my brother tells me similar about boot.  his trainer's thoughts were that letting a guy get close enough for hand to hand was a waste of a perfectly good $1500 rifle.


----------



## bushidomartialarts (Apr 15, 2006)

though i imagine special forces do differently.  anybody out there can speak to that?


----------



## Andrew Green (Apr 15, 2006)

Just out of curiosity, what techniques do you see that can't be trained live with proper protective equipment or percautions?


----------



## bushidomartialarts (Apr 15, 2006)

it's the equipment and precautions that seem like the problem.

i spar with one of my friends every week.  we whale on each other, smile and grab a beer after.

one time in class, doing a technique line (no protective gear), he zigged when i zagged.  he hit the ground, hard and was dizzy for about five minutes.  and then his eye socket swelled until he was seeing double for a couple of days.

that punch wasn't any harder than i've hit him dozens of times.  the gear mad a significant difference in the outcome of the punch.  and i'm not even getting into joint locks, eye gouges, knees to the groin and all the meaty fun stuff.

is there an direct inverse proportion between training safety and effective application?


----------



## Andrew Green (Apr 15, 2006)

The balance is always the key, and you're right, protection does get in the way of reality because the true effects of something are lost.

But, you can test whether something "could" work.  I can put on safety goggles and mount you to see if it is possible for you to use an eye gouge while I am up there trying to hit you, and to what level of accuracy and power.

Which is another thing that live training teaches, in a fight anything can happen.  Either person could win, and has a chance no matter how different the skill levels are, simply because of the unpredictability.  A lucky shot, a slip, a mistake, anything can happen and at anytime the fight could go either way.

All we can do is try to change the odds...


----------



## bushidomartialarts (Apr 15, 2006)

and that's why a handshake and friendly smile are my favorite self-defense techniques.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 15, 2006)

No argument from me with anything posted above. Protective gear means less realism, but what are you going to do? People gotta go to work the next day.


----------



## samurai69 (Apr 15, 2006)

clip of some guys going all out

http://www.fullspeedcomputer.com/Files/CrazyGuy0306.wmv


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 15, 2006)

That's not quite all out, but still a great clip. Add a headgear and MMA gloves and they could add light striking which still wouldn't be 100%. The boxing ring is just a soft sided see through small room like that.


----------



## MartialIntent (Apr 15, 2006)

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> is there an direct inverse proportion between training safety and effective application?


No doubt whatsoever. With headgear, gloves and ankle pads and a minimum "fairplay" ruleset, we're happy to have sparring partners really put themselves behind their strikes - after all what's the worst that can happen?

All [and it's an *unqualified* _all_] defensive techniques have merit. There's a potential place for every single one in a real fight. There's little doubt that most of us on this board have some level of technical proficiency in one or more systems or arts. This is a fact not in dispute and I think we can claim to have pressure tested [_hate_ that term] these techniques per se quite successfully and more than adequately. And while some SD techniques may be more beneficial to us than others when it all kicks off, I believe certain factors represent a greater unknown than the techniques themselves. 

For me, the important difference between practise sparring and a fight for keeps is in attitude, fear and mindset or intent and while we can practise all we like in the dojo or ring, or during a less formal session in the back yard with a pal, or even by downing a mouthy youth in the street, we simply cannot adequately replicate our own responses in a down-and-dirty real scrap within these contrived situations. And I think that's the key point - NOT the validity of our techniques.

So the question is: Is there a way around this? Is there a way to train a real-live-fighting mindset that doesn't involve a potential drubbing?

In short no, because if there's any element of "safeness" present whatsoever, the situation ceases to be a polished mirror for the real thing. 

My personal theory [proven for me only!!] has come to fruition by reworking some of those life-and-death situations we've all been in: from fights themselves to auto accidents to getting one's head caught between railings as a kid [might not seem life and death with hindsight but relatively speaking it sure was!] to being stuck in a capsized kayak to breaking a major bone etc, etc. These leave a physiological blueprint upon us -and that's just my personal anecdotal experience and not scientific fact btw. But I believe it's possible to contemplate those reactions and consciously adapt and control them. From then this mindset can be capitilized upon by trying out -for example- some "dangerous" sporting activities - take your pick from the dozens out there. As I say, this is a personal theory which I have found to produce consistent gains.

Notwithstanding that, get out there and put yourself about. It can be done. And it goes without saying that I'm advocating nothing here, just talking...

The fact is, it's not necessarily the techniques that need looking at, I believe it's our own subconscious thru mental thru physiological responses that need focus and honing. 

Respects!


----------



## Rich Parsons (Apr 15, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> That's not quite all out, but still a great clip. Add a headgear and MMA gloves and they could add light striking which still wouldn't be 100%. The boxing ring is just a soft sided see through small room like that.



My thoughts as well, Not all out but good see people practicing. 

Not sure about the knife stuff, as this can happen to you. But not sure what they were practicing.


----------



## bushidomartialarts (Apr 15, 2006)

on a similar note...

what do y'all think about using nlp here?

the theory (backed by some study, but not a huge body of work) is that the subconscious mind perceives little or no difference between involved imagination and actual experience.  this is why your wife's mad at you all day when she dreams she caught you with another woman.

guided, focused visualization is an everyday tool for top-level athletes and salesmen.  has anybody had any experience with applying this tool to self-defense?

deeply imagining (or remembering -- thanks, martialintent) dire peril.  is there a qualitative difference between this and imagining successful free throws?  or is the difference only quantitative?


----------



## Rich Parsons (Apr 15, 2006)

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> on a similar note...
> 
> what do y'all think about using nlp here?
> 
> ...



NLP?


----------



## bushidomartialarts (Apr 15, 2006)

sorry.  NLP=Neuro-Linguistic Programming

it's a fancy way of saying that with practice, you can control your emotional state, calling up the most useful emotional responses on demand.

that's a gross oversimplification, but it's enough for the question at hand.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Apr 15, 2006)

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> sorry.  NLP=Neuro-Linguistic Programming
> 
> it's a fancy way of saying that with practice, you can control your emotional state, calling up the most useful emotional responses on demand.
> 
> that's a gross oversimplification, but it's enough for the question at hand.



I can remember a sad time and be sad.

I can remember a happy time and become happier then I am now.

I can remember a time when I was angry, and feel that anger.

The same goes with fear. (* Although how one deals with fear depends upon training. *)

I think about techniques and moves and timing and get better for I work it out in my mind. (* I also do this with work problems as well *). 

So my questions is why is it linguistic programing? I could see visual, but why Linguistic? Not to side track the discussion, just trying to better understand.


----------



## bushidomartialarts (Apr 15, 2006)

you know, i've wondered that myself, but i never asked anybody who knew.  if i had to guess, i'd say it has something to do with 'self-talk'.  a lot of the people who work with NLP spend a lot of time on 'positive self-talk' and 'negative self-talk'.  

just a guess.  

what's in a name?  a technique by any other name would still kick so much ***....


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 15, 2006)

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> you know, i've wondered that myself, but i never asked anybody who knew. if i had to guess, i'd say it has something to do with 'self-talk'. a lot of the people who work with NLP spend a lot of time on 'positive self-talk' and 'negative self-talk'.
> 
> just a guess.
> 
> what's in a name? a technique by any other name would still kick so much ***....


-Self talk is a huge part of Sports Psycology. I feel it overlaps a lot with SD psycology. That's one of benefits of combat sport competition. MMA is at the top of that food chain, but the nerves and butterflys before a golden gloves boxing match or BJJ tournament are closely related imo. I would say they are degrees of the same feelings. Competition with unknown oponents is way more nerve racking that sparring with the same old partners. Though not nearly at the level of a violent encounter for real.


----------



## frank raud (Apr 15, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I think about techniques and moves and timing and get better for I work it out in my mind. (* I also do this with work problems as well *).
> 
> So my questions is why is it linguistic programing? I could see visual, but why Linguistic? Not to side track the discussion, just trying to better understand.


NLP is fairly commonly used amongst the British combatives and RBSD groups.  why linguistic? Can't make the whole story in a few sentences, but some of the things they do is have a key word, which is their set off point. It may be in the middle of a sentence, like when I say the word sure, I will strike. So in the statement'are you sure you want to do this?' by the time it registers on the other guy that I didn't finish my sentece, he has been struck multiple times. As well, it is used as a distraction by asking a question completely out of context'does your mother know the Pope?"

Large sections of NLP involve self talk, the little engine that could'I think I can, I think I can", or the Rocky Horror Picture Show(if you are of that age) Don't just dream it, be it.

Some of the better known proponents of NLP for combat use are Marcus wynne, Dennis Martin and Darren Laur.


----------



## MartialIntent (Apr 15, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Self talk is a huge part of Sports Psycology. I feel it overlaps a lot with SD psycology. That's one of benefits of combat sport competition. MMA is at the top of that food chain, but the nerves and butterflys before a golden gloves boxing match or BJJ tournament are closely related imo. I would say they are degrees of the same feelings. Competition with unknown oponents is way more nerve racking that sparring with the same old partners. Though not nearly at the level of a violent encounter for real.


Yep, that's exactly what I'm talking about - too many of us get caught up in our techniques - and let's be honest, while they've all got something to offer in a bust-up, they still all contain inherent limitations which means all of our systems become cumulative totals of thise limitations [when viewed negatively]. But that's not the point, we'd need to cease the negativity with regard to our own techniques and accept their implicit worth. That's the first point. The second -and more important- is our "self talk" as you put it. This for me always has been the differentiating factor. 

Self talk conjures in my head something a little counselling-groupy to me though. I'm all for the NLP approach but it has to be done in the context of SD. I try to relate recall of those life-and-death situations [and as I say I'm talking life and death without the benefit of hindsight]. I'm sure we've all got caught in these situations throughout our lives. 

Fair enough, all this may sound a bit new-age but I like to think of it as radical  Discovering it was something of an epiphany for me, hehe. Seriously, give it a go: spend a moment recalling such a situation. We've all had them, I mentioned some upthread: right from the simplest losing your mom in the store as a kid through choking, being hit and knocked down by a car and falling off ladders through to being glassed, stabbed, shot, whatever. I don't believe it's the objective seriousness of the situation but rather the subjective, "I'm gonna die here," response. If you've had any of these I'm willing to bet the visual, auditory and physiological memory has been ultra-clearly branded into your subconscious forever. If you've got it, pay particular heed to how you resolved the situation *within yourself* physically - I mean you're still here, you must have pulled through right? That's the key - how did you cope, how did you control the overwhelming adrenal rush, maybe you were wet with your own blood perhaps or thought, My god, is that _my_ bone, that shouldn't be there... You get the idea. How did you curb the panic, what did you do to focus, what became important [severe stress has a phenomenal way to clear the mind]. Once you've got to there, hold the sensation and at all times remind yourself that you did in fact crack this b**ch and survive to tell.

The lynchpin of the theory is to be able to recall the control of this situation if and when you need it to harness your physical responses for a no-messing, real damage fight.

For me, the physiological recall: elevated HR [I've measured], retained muscle memories and coping mechanisms can be staggering. It's self-hypnosis or NLP by any other name but it's a surer way of mimicking your own response to the genuine defensive fight. Couple this with a little visualization, a little positive self talk and our hard won techniques, and this is how I believe we move towards becoming truly good life and self-defending artists as opposed to truly good in-house fighters.

I haven't expounded on this previously so I'm surely interested in any opinions. I'm just attempting to give a way to produce a positive outcome to a notion [the impossibility of adequately training for real world SD] which is too often tied in its own complexities. Though at the day's end, I'm still for getting out and "socializing" with one's street brethren. 

Respects!


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Apr 15, 2006)

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> though i imagine special forces do differently.  anybody out there can speak to that?



When I was in SF, we did lots of WWII style combatives for our h to h.  Had a few seminars in different things as well.

Jeff


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 15, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> When I was in SF, we did lots of WWII style combatives for our h to h. Had a few seminars in different things as well.
> 
> Jeff


-More info please! Who did the seminars? Still got copies of curriculum by chance?


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Apr 15, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -More info please! Who did the seminars? Still got copies of curriculum by chance?



Ok, let me find my Wayback Machine!lol.  The hand to had we trained in looked a lot like the Sykes/Fair bairn/Applegate combatives.  I'm pretty sure it was taken from them.  And why not?  Good stuff in there.  I know I used to see what they said was a FM for SF h to h in paladin press, have no idea if it's the real thing or not though.  I'd have to go through a lot of boxes to see if I have a copy.

As far as the seminars go, some were crap.  Probably did about 10 or so of them.  Two really stand out in my mind for their excellence.  Spent a week working with an Aikido instructor.  He even went out on a little exercise with us.  Really good practical technique as well.  The other one was some FMA practitioner.  He's who got me interested in FMA in the first place.  Too bad I can't get to any instructors 'cause of my job.

I wish I could remember more details, but as of this month, it's been ten(sorry, eleven) years since I was medically retired.  I will do some poking around and see if I can find that FM.  Not even sure if I ever had a copy of it though.

Oh, and a comment.  I've looked through the new h to h FM the Army has.  It's leaps and bounds better than what they had before.  But the people who put it together don't seem to realize that when the soldier would need that he'd have a ****-load of gear on him.  For years, h to h combat for the line units has been more of a fitness/esprit de corps thing.  Most who really want to learn effective h to h find instruction on their own.

Jeff

(edit for spelling and content.  It's been elevn years this month, not ten)


----------



## samurai69 (Apr 16, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -More info please! Who did the seminars? Still got copies of curriculum by chance?


 
some links that may help

http://www.defendo.com/defendo_web_site.htm

http://www.underwoodsystems.com/

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_other_edged_sykes_fairbairn.php

http://www.charles-nelson-defense.com/

http://www.jimmy-fatwing.co.uk/


Lots of information about WW2 combative styles Now and then, hope they help


----------



## still learning (Apr 16, 2006)

Hello, Watching the video...these guys are only acting.  On E-bay..you can order..video/cds....on real fights.  Most of them...all out anything goes....most guys get tired after a while and the fight ends. There are some..whew...great action.

When you see training/sparring fight....one thing...when these people in a real fight...looks slopply...but most fights are none stop..any kind of blows!

How do you train for a real street fight?    ....one way is to do it? ...Aloha


----------



## MJS (Apr 16, 2006)

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> problem: training for real street self-defense is nigh-impossible.
> 
> MMA don't train all the way because it's against the rules, TMA can't train all the way because people would get maimed.
> 
> ...


 
Equipment of some sort is going to be necessary, unless one can afford to take time off from work to recover from the injuries we may sustain.  Of course, how much gear you used is up to the people doing the training.  Taking the Dog Bros. for example, that would be a good example of some hard contact with minimal gear.  

Doing this type of training is certainly nothing new, but its often neglected during training.  There are suits/gear out there that is not bulky and can provide enough protection to avoid serious injury.

Mike


----------



## frank raud (Apr 16, 2006)

samurai69 said:
			
		

> some links that may help
> 
> http://www.defendo.com/defendo_web_site.htm
> 
> ...


 
Your first link has no connection to WWII combatives, despite what they market. The wolfe brothers have a good system, based on hapkido, wrestling and boxing for the blows, but there is no Fairbairn connection. They claim that boxing was the basis of what was taught at Camp X, yet the first H2H instructor was a wrestler, and there are many copies floating around of the sylabus taught by Fairbairn and his cadre of instructors where they caution against teaching a new recruit in using a closed fist. they do say if a man has previus training, work with it.


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Apr 16, 2006)

"Get Tough" and "Hands off" (SD for women, but still great techniques) are great books by Fairbairn.  I think Applegate wrote a book called Close Combat Files.  Haven't looked through that one, but I should.  A book that goes deeply into the psychology of combat (warfighting though, not really a SD book) is "On Combat" by Lt.Col. Grossman.  I think there has been a recent reprinting of that.

The techniques in the Fairbairn books probably will look familiar to most MA practitioners.  

Jeff


----------



## samurai69 (Apr 16, 2006)

frank raud said:
			
		

> Your first link has no connection to WWII combatives, despite what they market. The wolfe brothers have a good system, based on hapkido, wrestling and boxing for the blows, but there is no Fairbairn connection. They claim that boxing was the basis of what was taught at Camp X, yet the first H2H instructor was a wrestler, and there are many copies floating around of the sylabus taught by Fairbairn and his cadre of instructors where they caution against teaching a new recruit in using a closed fist. they do say if a man has previus training, work with it.


 
Just some pointers in the right direction ....... thats all  



> WWII *style* combatives for our h to h.


----------

