# The X-Kans



## MJS (Jun 24, 2011)

I was thinking about whether or not to ask this question openly or privately, but figured, what the hell...I'll ask here.  Hopefully this wont cause too many issues, so here goes.

So many times, on forums, we see the Buj, take alot of heat.  People say that the art sucks, its practioners larp, there is no proven lineage, etc, etc.  Yet it seems to me anyways, that the Jinenkan and Genbukan, are untouched by this.  Now, I'm not saying that they should be taking a beating too. IMHO, I dont feel that any of them should be bashed.  

So, what is it, that makes 1 get heat and the other 2 get nothing?  Overall quality of the  way things are taught?  Quality of vids?  Quality control as far as ranking goes?  

For the record, I dont train in any of the Kans, but I do know people who do, and yes, I've seen some quality vids.   Just looking to get an honest question answered folks.  Lets not turn this into a bash fest.


----------



## yorkshirelad (Jun 24, 2011)

MJS said:


> I was thinking about whether or not to ask this question openly or privately, but figured, what the hell...I'll ask here. Hopefully this wont cause too many issues, so here goes.
> 
> So many times, on forums, we see the Buj, take alot of heat. People say that the art sucks, its practioners larp, there is no proven lineage, etc, etc. Yet it seems to me anyways, that the Jinenkan and Genbukan, are untouched by this. Now, I'm not saying that they should be taking a beating too. IMHO, I dont feel that any of them should be bashed.
> 
> ...


 
I am an outsider when it comes to the X-Kans, but it appears to me that in Jinenkan and Genbukan there is qualtiy control. Both Tanemura and Manaka Sensei teach each of the arts that they recieved Menkyo in and vet their students over years, before thos students recieve high Dan rank.
In Bujinkan, although Hatsumi Sensei taught both Manaka and Tanemura Sensei, over the past few decades quality control has not been upheld and people have been promoted to ludicrously high rank, in a short space of time. I personally believe that Hatsumi gave out so many tenth Dans, that he created five more to distinguish the leadership of Bujinkan, and, sadly now has so many 15th Dans that rank in his association is meaningless.
It appears that the Bujinkan has an ad hoc training doctrine. There is no set syllabus and people have been known to recieve tenth Dan through Richard Van Donk's DVD series.
If I were you, I'd find a Jinenkan or Genbukan school and forget the Bujinkan.


----------



## MJS (Jun 24, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> I am an outsider when it comes to the X-Kans, but it appears to me that in Jinenkan and Genbukan there is qualtiy control. Both Tanemura and Manaka Sensei teach each of the arts that they recieved Menkyo in and vet their students over years, before thos students recieve high Dan rank.
> In Bujinkan, although Hatsumi Sensei taught both Manaka and Tanemura Sensei, over the past few decades quality control has not been upheld and people have been promoted to ludicrously high rank, in a short space of time. I personally believe that Hatsumi gave out so many tenth Dans, that he created five more to distinguish the leadership of Bujinkan, and, sadly now has so many 15th Dans that rank in his association is meaningless.
> It appears that the Bujinkan has an ad hoc training doctrine. There is no set syllabus and people have been known to recieve tenth Dan through Richard Van Donk's DVD series.
> If I were you, I'd find a Jinenkan or Genbukan school and forget the Bujinkan.


 
Yes, reading up on the Genbukan and Jinenkan sites, it seems that the QC is definately there.  Seems the focus is more on really knowing the material, being able to perform it (of course thats the way it should be anyways. ) and less on rank.  

As for the schools....there is one Buj dojo, about 20min away from me.  Genbukan....I'd have to travel out of state for that.  Jinenkan...the drive for 1 class a week, isnt worth it.  I wasnt looking to train, as I'm quite happy with what I'm doing now.  OTOH, if there were a Genbukan dojo closer, I'd consider it.   As for the Buj dojo...I know the inst there, and from what I've seen, he isnt one to pass out rank, which is a good thing.


----------



## Kurai (Jun 24, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> It appears that the Bujinkan has an ad hoc training doctrine. There is no set syllabus and people have been known to recieve tenth Dan through Richard Van Donk's DVD series.
> If I were you, I'd find a Jinenkan or Genbukan school and forget the Bujinkan.



Some Bujinkan dojos do have a set, strict syllabus.  As for your statement of 10th Dan via RVD DVD series you are incorrect.


----------



## yorkshirelad (Jun 24, 2011)

Kurai said:


> Some Bujinkan dojos do have a set, strict syllabus. As for your statement of 10th Dan via RVD DVD series you are incorrect.


 
I'm not speaking about individual dojos. I'm speaking about the organisation as a whole. There are many good martial artists in the Bujinkan, but the quality control of the organization is none existant, so it's sometimes difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak. 
As for RVD's DVDs, you can buy the set and test for all kyu grades via video camera. Then you can test for shodan only at RVD's dojo. Then you can buy more DVDs for all ranks up to yondan as long as you test for each rank at RVD's dojo, you'll get your rank. He then offers training trips to Noda where you can take the sakki test under Hatsumi. In short, you can grade to godan in five dojo visits. Then you sdon't have to buy anymore DVDs. You can just arrive in Japan with RVD and recieve another Dan rank everytime you go.
The kicker to all this madness is, that Hatsumi will issue all the certs. All kyu and Dan certs come from Hatsumi. It is therefore Hatsumi who is issuing the certs from RVD's DVD course.
You're technically correct though. RVD's DVDs can take you through yondan. Another five trips to Japan will get you a judan. this is the truth pure and simple.
i don't think that Hatsumi cares about Dan rank though. I think he's just playing with people. I really believe that the shihan he values most highly will be or have been issued Menkyo Kaiden and everything else is, well, meaningless.

Take at look at this folks:
http://www.blackbeltcourse.com/
http://nidancourse.ninjutsu.com/
http://sandancourse.ninjutsu.com/
http://shidoshicourse.ninjutsu.com/
http://mastercourse.ninjutsu.com/


----------



## Stealthy (Jun 24, 2011)

It has always been my opinion that flaming existing schools/teachers has propogated for primarily business related reasons and some students tend to be happy to jump on the band wagon.

Certainly flaming schools for non-business related reasons happens(giving Zen Do Kai a hard time for breeding thugs comes to mind) and those DVD's are just asking for it.

I'd be tempted to watch the dvds above just for ***** and giggles, so long as I don't have to pay for them.

I am curious to know if anyone would do the program though, I mean why go to all that trouble when you know in your heart that you just can't take the grade seriously.

If anyone wants to send me 500 bucks I will post them 2 Chuck Norris movies a Jackie Chan and three Bruce Lee flicks with a genuine Ripped-U-Off-Ryu certificate and black belt.



MJS said:


> Lets not turn this into a bash fest.


 
Where's the fun in that?


----------



## Supra Vijai (Jun 25, 2011)

From my limited understanding I believe another difference between the 3 is the focus of each school. Manaka Sensei and Tanemura Sensei both teach the traditional ryu-ha within their organisations and the focus is on correct transmission of the art. Hatsumi Sensei however does not take this approach as the Bujinkan do not teach the various ryu-ha of ninjutsu but rather Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (BBT) which is more Hatsumi Sensei's expression of the teachings of the school. While none of the organisations would be considered Koryu, the training methodologies of the Jinenkan and the Genbukan are more in line with traditional teaching styles than the Bujinkan. 

From what I've heard Manaka Sensei was THE go to guy for the form/technique side of things and he teaches his students accordingly. Tanemura Sensei similarly has a very strict teaching methodology. Hatsumi Sensei on the other hand loves introducing Henka or variations and is quite famous for his phrase "Understand? Good! Play!" (also the name of one of his books IIRC). When most people with experience and/or serious training looking at the way students of each school moves the difference is apparent. Whilst I myself am not at a level where I can nitpick flaws with any video, I know several people who can and the general opinion seems to be that a lot of the Bujinkan stuff on display is not as "clean" as the others. While that is by no means a measure of the entire organisation and every one of it's practitioners it's unfortunately a apples to apples scenario where you can only draw comparisons between the limited of number of videos available to you and personal experience if applicable.


----------



## Supra Vijai (Jun 25, 2011)

Stealthy said:


> I'd be tempted to watch the dvds above just for ***** and giggles, so long as I don't have to pay for them.



I have one of the first DVD's of the initial black belt course. To be honest, it's not great IMO purely because of the number of things you don't without having a living, breathing instructor there to correct you and offer advice. Purely for entertainment/curiosity though, I'd say worth a watch if only to see how other instructors approach the same material your school covers 



> I am curious to know if anyone would do the program though, I mean why go to all that trouble when you know in your heart that you just can't take the grade seriously.



Why not? I mean there are plenty of people around, even on these forums, who insist they can learn a martial art correctly off some books or videos. Some of them even go on to form their own schools and *gasp* teach others their "amazing skills". Sometimes reality is easily neglected when fantasy and desire are strong enough I think.



> If anyone wants to send me 500 bucks I will post them 2 Chuck Norris movies a Jackie Chan and three Bruce Lee flicks with a genuine Ripped-U-Off-Ryu certificate and black belt.



I see your movie offer and raise you 3 Van Damme movies and 2 Tony Jaa movies


----------



## Stealthy (Jun 25, 2011)

Supra Vijai said:


> there are plenty of people around, even on these forums, who insist they can learn a martial art correctly off some books or videos. Some of them even go on to form their own schools and *gasp* teach others their "amazing skills". Sometimes reality is easily neglected when fantasy and desire are strong enough I think.


 
I do believe you are correct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[yt]nOMulPMXSZA&feature=related[/yt]


----------



## Cryozombie (Jun 25, 2011)

MJS said:


> I was thinking about whether or not to ask this question openly or privately, but figured, what the hell...I'll ask here. Hopefully this wont cause too many issues, so here goes.
> 
> So many times, on forums, we see the Buj, take alot of heat. People say that the art sucks, its practioners larp, there is no proven lineage, etc, etc. Yet it seems to me anyways, that the Jinenkan and Genbukan, are untouched by this. Now, I'm not saying that they should be taking a beating too. IMHO, I dont feel that any of them should be bashed.
> 
> ...


 

This is my opinion, FWIW. In short, the Bujinkan is far more widespread and more widely... publicized? Than the other two organizations, which is, IMO why it generates more flak. That, coupled with the &#8220;Ninja&#8221; thing and the fantasy about what everyone expects a ninja to be as opposed to what it really is leads a lot of people to go &#8220;LoL Ninjers, Go Go Power Larpers!&#8221;. Well, that and a lack of understanding when watching a video on Youtube and going &#8220;ZOMG That&#8217;s so much ******** fantasy&#8221; when watching Kata demonstrations. I liken that to watching an MMA video of a guy practicing Shrimping back and forth across the floor and going &#8220;WTF? Hahaha! Yeah he&#8217;s really learning to fight, what a JOKE!&#8221; Because it&#8217;s a video of a training tool, not the big picture. By the same token, these clowns in the organization who post videos of Kata and are like &#8220;Check this out this is the real deal!&#8221; are not helping, because they don&#8217;t get it either.

There is a lot of truth to the comments about the quality control in the Bujinkan, especially coming from outsiders who don&#8217;t get what is going on in the organization, but, the quality IS there if you know what/who to look for, and what and who to avoid. I suspect that the ratio of Good instructors in the Buj, the Jinekan, and Genbukan are probably pretty close, but the Buj has a lot more Chaff because Hatsumi will cater to the paper tigers, and the other organization will not; They have a &#8220;Do A, B, C, do not Vary from this at all!&#8221; Attitude when teaching, where in the bujinkan, the kata and such are there and meant to teach the movement ideas; but the concept of the art is not about the techniques but rather using proper timing, distance and space control to overcome your opponent&#8230; so that a technique may not be appropriate or necessary, depending on your opponents response. THE PROBLEM (as I perceive it) is that a lot of guys, high ranking guys, and even guys with GREAT abilities, go to Japan, see what Hatsumi is doing, and then turn around and go &#8220;NO! That isn&#8217;t what Hatsumi is teaching! Do it like this! Parrot Him! Do nothing else!&#8221; and then we have generations of new students with no grasp on the basics of Kihon Happo, Sanshin, and the basic Kata that are in each Ryu&#8217;s scrolls. Why? I personally think it&#8217;s Because Hatsumi and his guys drilled that stuff years and years ago, and their level of training is so far beyond that that it isn&#8217;t what they are teaching anymore; that is left for the students individual instructors to do, and so many of them aren&#8217;t doing that because they are stuck in Japan Elite mode, and just don&#8217;t get it.


----------



## jks9199 (Jun 25, 2011)

Cryozombie said:


> THE PROBLEM (as I perceive it) is that a lot of guys, high ranking guys, and even guys with GREAT abilities, go to Japan, see what Hatsumi is doing, and then turn around and go NO! That isnt what Hatsumi is teaching! Do it like this! Parrot Him! Do nothing else! and then we have generations of new students with no grasp on the basics of Kihon Happo, Sanshin, and the basic Kata that are in each Ryus scrolls. Why? I personally think its Because Hatsumi and his guys drilled that stuff years and years ago, and their level of training is so far beyond that that it isnt what they are teaching anymore; that is left for the students individual instructors to do, and so many of them arent doing that because they are stuck in Japan Elite mode, and just dont get it.


As an outsider looking in -- I agree.  In the videos I've seen of Hatsumi teaching -- especially more recent ones -- it's clear he's not teaching for beginners.  He's teaching for the handful of people in the dojo who are far enough along to catch his lesson.  The rest?  They'll get something, and if they put the time into internalizing and drilling and practicing their basics, it'll click one day and they'll suddenly understand something.  But, by and large, he's not worrying about them when he teaches.  That's why his teaching is so centered on concepts and principles, rather than specific techniques.  He's trained a group of teachers that can cover the basics.  But what he gets showing up at the hombu dojo is everyone after their "Hatsumi class experience" even if they barely know the beginnings of ukemi to train.


----------



## Aiki Lee (Jun 26, 2011)

+1 to Cryo for a well informed post

You can find poor practitioners of anything on Youtube, but since Bujinkan is a larger organization they have more people and that means more videos of poor training from those who don't grasp what they should be doing. In the Banzenkan organization I find myself being quite concerned about the quality of video we post because the more examples of low quality that exist, the higher the chance that outsiders won't take what you do seriously.


----------



## Chris Parker (Jun 29, 2011)

Cryozombie said:


> There is a lot of truth to the comments about the quality control in the Bujinkan, especially coming from outsiders who dont get what is going on in the organization, but, the quality IS there if you know what/who to look for, and what and who to avoid. I suspect that the ratio of Good instructors in the Buj, the Jinekan, and Genbukan are probably pretty close, but the Buj has a lot more Chaff because Hatsumi will cater to the paper tigers, and the other organization will not; They have a Do A, B, C, do not Vary from this at all! Attitude when teaching, where in the bujinkan, the kata and such are there and meant to teach the movement ideas; but the concept of the art is not about the techniques but rather using proper timing, distance and space control to overcome your opponent so that a technique may not be appropriate or necessary, depending on your opponents response.


 
Hey Cryo, 

I've been purposefully staying out of this one, and I've sent my thoughts to MJS about it, but one thing I will say is on the concept of quality control. Honestly, my friend, the idea of there being an issue in the Bujinkan is not so much about whether there is any quality to be found in the organisation (I think it's pretty obvious that there is, starting with Hatsumi down), the issue is one of quality control. In other words, is the level of quality uniform across the board for a similar ranked person. And in the Bujinkan, the answer is no. And that has nothing to do with the size of the organisation, at least not in the direction suggested. Honestly, the Bujinkan may be big due to lack of quality control (Chris Carbonaro reaching his 10th Dan + in about 8 years or so from white belt, and spawning 5th Dan's plus of his own since comes to mind), it doesn't have a lack of quality control due to it's size.

And, honestly, the Jinenkan/Genbukan approach of learning things exactly ("A-B-C" method) is one very good way of maintaining quality across the board. The Bujinkan free form methods are best used after such A-B-C training has been used to develop skill. As an instructor, it's certainly something I aspire to.


----------



## MJS (Jun 29, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Hey Cryo,
> 
> I've been purposefully staying out of this one, and I've sent my thoughts to MJS about it, but one thing I will say is on the concept of quality control. Honestly, my friend, the idea of there being an issue in the Bujinkan is not so much about whether there is any quality to be found in the organisation (I think it's pretty obvious that there is, starting with Hatsumi down), the issue is one of quality control. In other words, is the level of quality uniform across the board for a similar ranked person. And in the Bujinkan, the answer is no. And that has nothing to do with the size of the organisation, at least not in the direction suggested. Honestly, the Bujinkan may be big due to lack of quality control (Chris Carbonaro reaching his 10th Dan + in about 8 years or so from white belt, and spawning 5th Dan's plus of his own since comes to mind), it doesn't have a lack of quality control due to it's size.
> 
> And, honestly, the Jinenkan/Genbukan approach of learning things exactly ("A-B-C" method) is one very good way of maintaining quality across the board. The Bujinkan free form methods are best used after such A-B-C training has been used to develop skill. As an instructor, it's certainly something I aspire to.


 
Its interesting that you mention that, because I see the same thing in Kenpo.  I learned things from my teacher, thus passing the same onto people that I teach.  Yet many times, I've had discussion with other BB's, about a technique or form/kata, because they see me doing something different.  

The problem lies here....instead of keeping things across the board, they'd just go ahead and make a change, perhaps because they couldn't make it work, etc.  Now, yes, there are things that I can't make work, without making a change.  Even if I'm teaching a tech, that I hate, would never use, etc, I still teach it.  Afterall, just because I can't, doesnt mean someone else wont have an easier time.  So, after I teach it, I'll show them how I do it, subtle changes that I've made for myself.  I'm not saying that my way is *the* way, just another option.  

But, its hard to maintain quality and have everyone on the same page, if student A works with teachers 1,2,3,and 4, and then me, teacher 5 comes along, and they say, "Well, 1 told me to do it this way, 3 said this, but 2 said thats wrong, 4 told me this way, and now you're saying this." LOL...you can see how the confusion runs high. LOL.  

I think alot of people are trying to sprint, before they learn how to run, let alone walk. LOL.


----------



## gregtca (Jun 29, 2011)

Gee this quality issue is never ending, back in the 80's it started, and here we are 30 years later , although i would think with a "new Batch" of ppl , hearing the same things about - quality. As Soke has said many times, he handed out rank to anyone that asked for it , for many reasons , but he's also said many times , its up to you , the student to find the diamond among the ruffage, or as some others have said , if you are ment to find a good instructor - you will , anyway i will just copy this and keep it for the next quality forum in the next 20 - 30 years 

Greg

ps just enjoy training and the rest will follow - if its ment to be , lol


----------



## MJS (Jun 30, 2011)

gregtca said:


> Gee this quality issue is never ending, back in the 80's it started, and here we are 30 years later , although i would think with a "new Batch" of ppl , hearing the same things about - quality. *As Soke has said many times, he handed out rank to anyone that asked for it , for many reasons , but he's also said many times , its up to you , the student to find the diamond among the ruffage*, or as some others have said , if you are ment to find a good instructor - you will , anyway i will just copy this and keep it for the next quality forum in the next 20 - 30 years
> 
> Greg
> 
> ps just enjoy training and the rest will follow - if its ment to be , lol


 
Well, that is the issue right there....

the problem is, is that people probably are not seeking the diamond and just taking the rank, thus why so much flack is given.  Of course, if its really been going on as long as you claim, one should ask themselves....why is this happening and is there anything that should be done to fix it?  

And btw, if you're not happy with the forum or the topic, why are you posting?  I ask this since you dont seem to have much to offer as far as the topic goes.


----------



## yorkshirelad (Jun 30, 2011)

MJS said:


> Well, that is the issue right there....
> 
> the problem is, is that people probably are not seeking the diamond and just taking the rank, thus why so much flack is given. Of course, if its really been going on as long as you claim, one should ask themselves....why is this happening and is there anything that should be done to fix it?
> 
> And btw, if you're not happy with the forum or the topic, why are you posting? I ask this since you dont seem to have much to offer as far as the topic goes.


 
I don't know Hatsumi Sensei, but it seems to me that that he views the ranks he gives in the Bujinkan as meaningless.
I would like to know, how many of the Jugodans out there have Menkyo Kaiden in the various ryuha. We know that Manaka Sensei, and Tanemura Sensei both got Menkyo Kaiden from Hatsumi Sensei in at least some of the ryuha.
I get the feeling that there are many Shihan who consider themselves equals to some of the senior Japanese Shihan, but are unaware of the paperwork that the Japanese Shihan have.
I really do think that rank in the Bujinkan is a head fake. I think that when the Bujinkan passes to the next inheritor, many people are going to be in for a shock!


----------



## EWBell (Jun 30, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> I don't know Hatsumi Sensei, but it seems to me that that he views the ranks he gives in the Bujinkan as meaningless.
> I would like to know, how many of the Jugodans out there have Menkyo Kaiden in the various ryuha. We know that Manaka Sensei, and Tanemura Sensei both got Menkyo Kaiden from Hatsumi Sensei in at least some of the ryuha.
> I get the feeling that there are many Shihan who consider themselves equals to some of the senior Japanese Shihan, but are unaware of the paperwork that the Japanese Shihan have.
> I really do think that rank in the Bujinkan is a head fake. I think that when the Bujinkan passes to the next inheritor, many people are going to be in for a shock!


 
I don't believe any non-Japanese shihan have menkyo kaiden in any of the individual ryu-ha, which should tell you all you need to know.


----------



## gregtca (Jun 30, 2011)

To mjs
_"Well, that is the issue right there...."And btw, if you're not happy with the forum or the topic, why are you posting? I ask this since you dont seem to have much to offer as far as the topic goes._

Im sorry for upsetting you, yes its an old problem , basically poeple have there own agenda's , ego , to be better in there own eyes then someone else, human nature at its lowest level - imho.

I remember 20yolds 5th dans - what a laugh -joke, you see the organisation hadto get big / grow way back then , so rank was given in the japanese way - meaning you got it , so prove to the world / yourself that you are that standard - what ever that was, now thats fine for a japanese person , not good for westerners who didnt really understand it.

So there is the initail issue , ppl took rank for ego etc, imho, but as they say , some ppl cant handle the truth, so they make their own up.

But though all this , there have been some honest ppl who are excellent at this art , you just need to find them , 

oh and who said im not happy with the forum , it is a great place to see what other ppl are doing / thinking , sharing , 

anyway bw to all 

greg


----------



## MJS (Jun 30, 2011)

gregtca said:


> To mjs
> _"Well, that is the issue right there...."And btw, if you're not happy with the forum or the topic, why are you posting? I ask this since you dont seem to have much to offer as far as the topic goes._
> 
> Im sorry for upsetting you, yes its an old problem , basically poeple have there own agenda's , ego , to be better in there own eyes then someone else, human nature at its lowest level - imho.
> ...


 
I'm not upset at all.   I apologize if I misread your post.


----------



## Chris Parker (Jul 1, 2011)

gregtca said:


> Gee this quality issue is never ending, back in the 80's it started, and here we are 30 years later , although i would think with a "new Batch" of ppl , hearing the same things about - quality. As Soke has said many times, he handed out rank to anyone that asked for it , for many reasons , but he's also said many times , its up to you , the student to find the diamond among the ruffage, or as some others have said , if you are ment to find a good instructor - you will , anyway i will just copy this and keep it for the next quality forum in the next 20 - 30 years
> 
> Greg
> 
> ps just enjoy training and the rest will follow - if its ment to be , lol


 
The thing is, though Greg, that there isn't a discussion of "quality", there's a discussion of "quality control". And that's a very different thing.

"Quality" means that you are asking if there is anything or anybody worth studying from in the art, or organisation, which seems to be what you're addressing here (same with Cryo earlier). "Quality control", on the other hand, means that there is a uniformity to the organisation. You can have quality with no quality control, but it tends to be rather haphazard at best, and is more about the individual, rather than the art. In other words, a quality practitioner in an organisation with little to no quality control would most likely have been a quality practitioner no matter where they were. 

You can, conversely, have little quality in an organisation even with quality control... all it means is that everyone of the same rank is roughly the same in terms of skill, ability, knowledge etc. It just might not be a good organisation to be in, but at least you'd know what you're getting into!

That is not what is found in the Bujinkan, though. You may be learning from a 15th Dan, but is it a 15th Dan at Nagato's level, or Tim Bathurst's even, or is an RVD-type 15th Dan? The simple fact that there is such variance for this rank (and all others, frankly) is proof positive that there is no quality control in the Bujinkan. Other evidence is seen in your post, when talking about Hatsumi Sensei's promoting methods, and the idea of a student needing to find a good instructor. Now, all arts have good and less-impressive instructors in them, but the degree of difference, especially in the higher ranks in the Bujinkan is ridiculous. I'm sure you'd agree there.

When it comes to your phrase of needing to find "the diamond in the ruffage" (uh, pretty sure you meant "Diamond in the rough" there, otherwise that's not a pretty image, ha! And, while I'm here, it's really not a good phrase to use, as a "diamond in the rough" refers to an unpolished and uncut stone, with the hidden beauty yet to be revealed by careful polishing and skillful removal of unnecessary parts, not searching for something good amongst a lot of bad, or lesser examples. Unless you're saying that the students can learn from a bad instructor and still create a "diamond" out of that school....), frankly that's just a cop-out. If there was quality control in the first place, that wouldn't be a part of it. Honestly, the simpler, easier, more reliable, and better result for the student would be to attend a school where the quality is assured before they stepped in the door. Otherwise, what on earth are these lesser persons' doing claiming to represent an art/organisation by being such bad examples of it? Surely as a Bujinkan member you'd be outraged by that? Same goes for the "just enjoy the training and the rest will follow" comment. Seriously, just a cop-out. Be better. Demand better. Don't train with those who have low standards. Don't support them as members of the organisation. Be better. Demand better. That way everyone wins.



yorkshirelad said:


> I don't know Hatsumi Sensei, but it seems to me that that he views the ranks he gives in the Bujinkan as meaningless.
> I would like to know, how many of the Jugodans out there have Menkyo Kaiden in the various ryuha. We know that Manaka Sensei, and Tanemura Sensei both got Menkyo Kaiden from Hatsumi Sensei in at least some of the ryuha.
> I get the feeling that there are many Shihan who consider themselves equals to some of the senior Japanese Shihan, but are unaware of the paperwork that the Japanese Shihan have.
> I really do think that rank in the Bujinkan is a head fake. I think that when the Bujinkan passes to the next inheritor, many people are going to be in for a shock!


 


EWBell said:


> I don't believe any non-Japanese shihan have menkyo kaiden in any of the individual ryu-ha, which should tell you all you need to know.


 
I honestly don't think that Menkyo Kaiden in the Ryu-ha has anything to do with the Bujinkan, really. For one thing, Hatsumi isn't teaching the Ryu, he is teaching Budo Taijutsu, which is his modern martial art creation, with it's technical basis being taken from his experience and the Ryu-ha that he is caretaker of. But it's not the Ryu-ha themselves. As a result, having Menkyo Kaiden or not has no real bearing on the individual's ability to transmit Hatsumi's Budo Taijutsu; it would only have bearing if they were transmitting the Ryu themselves. After all, that's why Manaka Sensei, for example, doesn't teach Budo Taijutsu, he teaches the Ryu-ha. Budo Taijutsu is Hatsumi's, Manaka has authority to teach the Ryu (he is ranked in them specifically). But it is really a different kettle of fish.


----------



## Stealthy (Jul 1, 2011)

Considering the very purpose of rank is to ensure quality control I find the state of the Bujinkan at the moment to be completely abysmal.

That Ninjutsu still commands a modicum of respect is a miracle.

Edited: *To spell it out. *Incompetance from any Ninjutsu School reflects poorly on *ALL* schools by default and irrespective of personal opinions about what certain ranks entail the lay person assumes a Black Belt can actually fight and *well* so to find one that can't relegates their entire system to the garbage can. Sure you can try and reclaim some honour with a clever story about how not everyone in the school is that bad or how it's only THAT school and the other ones are okay but the fact remains damage has been done and not all of the honour and prestige can be restored.

I would have thought a School with the Samurai code in its heritage would value Honour slightly higher than that.


----------



## Aiki Lee (Jul 1, 2011)

That's the purpose of rank _in America_, not Japan. The Japanese have a different view of what the rank means from what I understand.


----------



## Stealthy (Jul 1, 2011)

Himura Kenshin said:


> That's the purpose of rank _in America_, not Japan. The Japanese have a different view of what the rank means from what I understand.


 


Stealthy said:


> *...clever story...*


 
Need I say more?


----------



## yorkshirelad (Jul 1, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> I honestly don't think that Menkyo Kaiden in the Ryu-ha has anything to do with the Bujinkan, really. For one thing, Hatsumi isn't teaching the Ryu, he is teaching Budo Taijutsu, which is his modern martial art creation, with it's technical basis being taken from his experience and the Ryu-ha that he is caretaker of. But it's not the Ryu-ha themselves. As a result, having Menkyo Kaiden or not has no real bearing on the individual's ability to transmit Hatsumi's Budo Taijutsu; it would only have bearing if they were transmitting the Ryu themselves. After all, that's why Manaka Sensei, for example, doesn't teach Budo Taijutsu, he teaches the Ryu-ha. Budo Taijutsu is Hatsumi's, Manaka has authority to teach the Ryu (he is ranked in them specifically). But it is really a different kettle of fish.


 
Hmmm, this is interesting. I know that Hatsumi teaches Budo Taijutsu, but if he is caretaker of his branch of the Takamatsuden ryuha, doesn't that mean he has to pass them on at some stage? Does anyone know if Hatsumi still teaches the individual to the Japanese Shihan in order for his branch of Takamatsuden to be passed on to a new generation, or does he just teach an amalgamation of ryu as Budo Taijutsu only? If he passes on Budo Taijutsu to one of the Shihan does that mean that they automatically become the Soke of all of Hatsumi's branch of Takamatsuden?


----------



## gregtca (Jul 1, 2011)

The question was both , quality  & control , yes there seems to be  little control & quality . maybe go back to studying the ten chi jin manaul , that was some control , it was supposed to be the shodan training manual, 
I meant "ruffage" as the other word i was using was not appropiate, there are some excellent instructors , but lets be real there is alot of crap ones too , but this is true off all arts , just depends on how wide a gap between the good, the bad & the ugly, 

oh i never  said  "_Unless you're saying that the students can learn from a bad instructor and still create a "diamond" out of that school" But training is about ALL experiences , and what you personally take from it,you learn from good & bad , and yes i beleave most importantly to enjoy what ever training you may be doing ,  _

_any way just a radom thought _

_BW to all _
_Greg_


----------



## yorkshirelad (Jul 1, 2011)

gregtca said:


> The question was both , quality & control , yes there seems to be little control & quality . maybe go back to studying the ten chi jin manaul , that was some control , it was supposed to be the shodan training manual,
> I meant "ruffage" as the other word i was using was not appropiate, there are some excellent instructors , but lets be real there is alot of crap ones too , but this is true off all arts , just depends on how wide a gap between the good, the bad & the ugly,
> 
> oh i never said "_Unless you're saying that the students can learn from a bad instructor and still create a "diamond" out of that school" But training is about ALL experiences , and what you personally take from it,you learn from good & bad , and yes i beleave most importantly to enjoy what ever training you may be doing , _
> ...


The only thing you learn from the bad instructors, is to not train with them. If you're a brand new student to the Martial Arts, you have nothing to relate the bad from the good. It is an orgaization's duty to impose some degree of quality control on its instructors. Otherwise, students get hosed!
Can you imagine the poor souls who get their shodan from RVD's DVDs and then are exposed to Nagato Sensei in Japan, along with the shodans who were trained directly by him? They must feel somewhat deflated.


----------



## Cryozombie (Jul 2, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Hey Cryo,
> 
> I've been purposefully staying out of this one, and I've sent my thoughts to MJS about it, but one thing I will say is on the concept of quality control. Honestly, my friend, the idea of there being an issue in the Bujinkan is not so much about whether there is any quality to be found in the organisation (I think it's pretty obvious that there is, starting with Hatsumi down), the issue is one of quality control. In other words, is the level of quality uniform across the board for a similar ranked person. And in the Bujinkan, the answer is no. And that has nothing to do with the size of the organisation, at least not in the direction suggested. Honestly, the Bujinkan may be big due to lack of quality control (Chris Carbonaro reaching his 10th Dan + in about 8 years or so from white belt, and spawning 5th Dan's plus of his own since comes to mind), it doesn't have a lack of quality control due to it's size.
> 
> And, honestly, the Jinenkan/Genbukan approach of learning things exactly ("A-B-C" method) is one very good way of maintaining quality across the board. The Bujinkan free form methods are best used after such A-B-C training has been used to develop skill. As an instructor, it's certainly something I aspire to.


 
Chris... don't misunderstand me... I don't think the size of the organization lends to its lack of quality.  I said it is large enough that it has more exposure, so it is seen more often.  That's all.

As far as the issue of quality and A.B.C. training... it comes down to, (as it has been explained to me, I aploigize if I get this wrong, I'm not trying to speak for anyone) a two fold issue, both of which I think I hit on in my original post:  The first is that Hatsumi caters to the rank chasers... gives them what they want and then dismisses them as "paper tigers" who are not worth training with.  Is that right?  *I* wouldn't do it that way, but it's not my organization, and I feel lucky enough to have trained with a large enough number of instructors in the art to kinda tell the difference.  A lot of guys maybe can't and that's unfortunate... but it isn't my place to change that.  Secondly, the "ABC" approach isn't wrong at all, IMO... I just think too many, and I will use the term again, Japan Elitists are trying to jump ahead and make everything look like Hatsumi and skip out on the basics and learning the ABC's of the particular Kata.

I'm even man enough to Admit that I have a problem in that area.  I was taught Sanshin, Kihon Happo and even the Kata as a "A.B.C."  and then branched out from there.  Now I have younger belts coming to me and they are like "How do you do Ate nage" and I am like "Uhhh, you do it like... well I do it like this... but thats wrong for you" which is totally wrong from the ABC approach.  But I recognize that I am doing more timing/distance/flow than Step by Step training anymore... and thats part of why I refuse to teach.


----------



## Chris Parker (Jul 2, 2011)

Himura Kenshin said:


> That's the purpose of rank _in America_, not Japan. The Japanese have a different view of what the rank means from what I understand.


 
Not quite, Himura. There is a concept within Japanese society whereby someone would be promoted beyond their level, or promoted early, as it would then be a stimulus to be "worth" the promotion, as Japanese culture is based on the concept of "shame", rather than "guilt". In other words, the Japanese method there prompts the Japanese person to work hard, or risk bringing shame on themselves, and the workplace/association/dojo.

We in the West, however, are more interested in individuality, and our value system is based more in guilt. So unless there is guilt attached (the person is made to feel that they don't deserve the grade, and they are misleading others based on it unless they work hard, then it won't have the same result. And the very idea of that gets undermined when people (Westerners) are told that they have the new grade because "they're very good, and training hard!" Then given another grade. There is no impetus for even the Japanese early promotion method, and using it as an explaination is again, a cop out, as it really doesn't apply.



yorkshirelad said:


> Hmmm, this is interesting. I know that Hatsumi teaches Budo Taijutsu, but if he is caretaker of his branch of the Takamatsuden ryuha, doesn't that mean he has to pass them on at some stage?


 
No, it is up to him whether or not he passes them on. What he does with them is up to him, really.



yorkshirelad said:


> Does anyone know if Hatsumi still teaches the individual to the Japanese Shihan in order for his branch of Takamatsuden to be passed on to a new generation, or does he just teach an amalgamation of ryu as Budo Taijutsu only?


 
Doubtful, honestly. Hatsumi seems to have moved away from teaching the Ryu-ha many years ago, with most of his awarding of Menkyo in the various Ryu occuring during a time when he was very sick, and believed that he might die. He got his senior students to copy his scrolls so the arts would be preserved then, which was in the early 80's.

And, to be clear on this, Budo Taijutsu is not an amalgamation of the Ryu-ha. The mechanics and technical methods from them form the basis for the expression of Budo Taijutsu, but that is very far removed from making it an amalgamation of the Ryu. The Ryu themselves are complete methods of thinking, approaching the issues and problems of combative situations, with their own unique philosophy and "feel". You cannot integrate them, or amalgamate them without losing what they are.



yorkshirelad said:


> If he passes on Budo Taijutsu to one of the Shihan does that mean that they automatically become the Soke of all of Hatsumi's branch of Takamatsuden?


 
Depends entirely on what Hatsumi Sensei decides to do.....



gregtca said:


> The question was both , quality & control , yes there seems to be little control & quality . maybe go back to studying the ten chi jin manaul , that was some control , it was supposed to be the shodan training manual,
> I meant "ruffage" as the other word i was using was not appropiate, there are some excellent instructors , but lets be real there is alot of crap ones too , but this is true off all arts , just depends on how wide a gap between the good, the bad & the ugly,
> 
> oh i never said "_Unless you're saying that the students can learn from a bad instructor and still create a "diamond" out of that school" But training is about ALL experiences , and what you personally take from it,you learn from good & bad , and yes i beleave most importantly to enjoy what ever training you may be doing , _
> ...


 
No, you didn't say that, that was me trying to understand what you did say (by taking to the common phrase you seemed to be trying to use... although I see what you meant now). But, again, this really just comes down to quality control. If there was some, then there wouldn't be the huge gap between instructors of the same rank, a few very good, and many far less than may be desired. And as this thread is about why the Bujinkan gets such stick compared to the other X-Kan organisations, this issue of quality control is one of the big reasons.



Cryozombie said:


> Chris... don't misunderstand me... I don't think the size of the organization lends to its lack of quality. I said it is large enough that it has more exposure, so it is seen more often. That's all.


 
Oh, I got that, my friend. But I don't really agree, honestly. How big is Shotokan? How many Kendoka are there in the world? The Bujinkan may be the biggest of the X-Kan organistions, but it's far from the biggest martial art organisation in the world, and other, larger systems don't suffer from this issue. And if the Bujinkan had more quality control, neither would it. 



Cryozombie said:


> As far as the issue of quality and A.B.C. training... it comes down to, (as it has been explained to me, I aploigize if I get this wrong, I'm not trying to speak for anyone) a two fold issue, both of which I think I hit on in my original post: The first is that Hatsumi caters to the rank chasers... gives them what they want and then dismisses them as "paper tigers" who are not worth training with. Is that right? *I* wouldn't do it that way, but it's not my organization, and I feel lucky enough to have trained with a large enough number of instructors in the art to kinda tell the difference. A lot of guys maybe can't and that's unfortunate... but it isn't my place to change that.


 
Yeah, the issue does come down the the fact that most people training in a martial art simply go to the most local school, so with so many truly bad instructors out there, if the students only know that instructor, then all it's going to do is keep the bad teaching/learning going for another generation.



Cryozombie said:


> Secondly, the "ABC" approach isn't wrong at all, IMO... I just think too many, and I will use the term again, Japan Elitists are trying to jump ahead and make everything look like Hatsumi and skip out on the basics and learning the ABC's of the particular Kata.


 
Absolutely agreed there. The ABC's, so to speak, are the fundamental first step to learning the art. They really can't be skipped, yet many seem to....



Cryozombie said:


> I'm even man enough to Admit that I have a problem in that area. I was taught Sanshin, Kihon Happo and even the Kata as a "A.B.C." and then branched out from there.


 
As it should be.



Cryozombie said:


> Now I have younger belts coming to me and they are like "How do you do Ate nage" and I am like "Uhhh, you do it like... well I do it like this... but thats wrong for you" which is totally wrong from the ABC approach. But I recognize that I am doing more timing/distance/flow than Step by Step training anymore... and thats part of why I refuse to teach.


 
Hmm, it really should be A-B-C for them to learn it, though. But one thing that always puzzles me is this idea that proper kata training and learning (ABC) doesn't teach timing, distance, flow etc... that's pretty much exactly what they teach! Anyone who isn't teaching that as part of the kata training shouldn't be teaching. Period. Other than that, all they are are a string of movements, it's the distancing, timing, and flow aspects that makes them kata.


----------



## Cryozombie (Jul 2, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Oh, I got that, my friend. But I don't really agree, honestly. How big is Shotokan? How many Kendoka are there in the world? The Bujinkan may be the biggest of the X-Kan organistions, but it's far from the biggest martial art organisation in the world, and other, larger systems don't suffer from this issue. And if the Bujinkan had more quality control, neither would it.


 
I don't think I am being clear... because the Bujinkan is so big, the quality control issues show more than if it was small. If an organization sucked, and had 30 schools world wide, it would probably be less glaring than if it sucked and had 2000; There would be less videos, less demo's less places for people to see their failings.  I think we are on the same page with this one, I just don't think I am explaining what I mean well. 



Chris Parker said:


> Hmm, it really should be A-B-C for them to learn it, though. But one thing that always puzzles me is this idea that proper kata training and learning (ABC) doesn't teach timing, distance, flow etc... that's pretty much exactly what they teach! Anyone who isn't teaching that as part of the kata training shouldn't be teaching. Period. Other than that, all they are are a string of movements, it's the distancing, timing, and flow aspects that makes them kata.


 
They do, yes... but (and this is my opinion on them so it may not carry any weight) they do so in a "Static" way. I've seen many people get caught up in the Kata or completing the sequence and cannot use flow or transition when it goes bad, and so they add strength or other non-essential elements, instead of changing a technique to fit the opponents changing movements. *I* feel that only by learning the ABC of a Kata, so you can do it "by the book" and then "playing" with the kata can you figure out that "Well, if I do Ate Nage, and the arm Drops like this instead orf cranking harder and trying to force Ate Nage, (and getting socked in the jaw every time) I can move to Fudo instead... I think a lot of people get caught up in "Do A. Then B. Then C. Never Deviate!" and that is ALMOST as bad as skipping right to the flow portion as well.


----------



## Aiki Lee (Jul 2, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Not quite, Himura. There is a concept within Japanese society whereby someone would be promoted beyond their level, or promoted early, as it would then be a stimulus to be "worth" the promotion, as Japanese culture is based on the concept of "shame", rather than "guilt". In other words, the Japanese method there prompts the Japanese person to work hard, or risk bringing shame on themselves, and the workplace/association/dojo.


 
This is what I was refering to. I feel that it is a cop out as well when western students without proper work ethic are promoted beyond their skill level. The Western mindset of "If I have it, I earned it." means that those promoted early by any teacher in any organization are likely to think they are skilled enough to deserve it unless they are able to provide themselves with an ego check.

And, Stealthy, I'm not quite sure what you meant by your last comment so please, say more.


----------



## Stealthy (Jul 3, 2011)

Himura Kenshin said:


> And, Stealthy, I'm not quite sure what you meant by your last comment so please, say more.


 
I was merely pointing out that hiding behind the old "it's a Japanese way of doing things" is just another clever story to help retain students, honour and prestige which would otherwise evaporate.

While I can appreciate there is some merit to reenacting olden times (the medival fans do it all the time) when you start handing out 15th dans to go along with it, it does become a bit of a joke.

Personally I am of the opinion that if it doesn't work you are doing it wrong....and yes I know I am wrong. But from my perspective you have decades of martial artists out there doing it wrong and yet hiding behind their high ranks saying this is the correct way.

To be honest at first glance it looks like Ninjutsu has 15,000 defenses against one attack which is just ridiculous. Sooner or later the inclusion of variations and alternatives has to become a joke since nobody in their right mind could honestly say they can actually incorporate them all seemlessly into a fluid responsive fighting art.

Personally I would rather focus on one style at a time and only having mastered that move on to another or "heaven forbid" vary it.

edit:To present this in a slightly different way I would say, the only thing you should be varying are the attacks. Travel to all of the other martial arts from Silat to Western Boxing and if at any time you find the Matrix of your style is incapable of dealing with their attacks then by all means locate and correct the problem(in essence modifying the Style..permanently). Any other deviation from the Style should be considered a lack of discipline and purged. It is my mistaken belief that this is what the ancestors of Ninjutsu did and somewhere along the way the ball has been dropped, the Matrix has been forgotten and all you are left with is a set of random techniques that in no way come together to form a singular fighting system since so many of the expressions are incorrect.

With Respect,
Stealthy.


----------



## Stealthy (Jul 3, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> And, to be clear on this, Budo Taijutsu is not an amalgamation of the Ryu-ha. The mechanics and technical methods from them form the basis for the expression of Budo Taijutsu, but that is very far removed from making it an amalgamation of the Ryu. *The Ryu themselves are complete methods of thinking, approaching the issues and problems of combative situations, with their own unique philosophy and "feel". You cannot integrate them, or amalgamate them without losing what they are.*


 

Actually I think this quote says it better than my poor attempt.

Still not a reason for the Bujinkan to get flamed so heavily since Hatsumi has every right to invent his own Style therefore quality control is no doubt the main issue.


----------



## Aiki Lee (Jul 3, 2011)

Thanks for your clairification. There is something you said that I'd like to comment on.



Stealthy said:


> Personally I am of the opinion that if it doesn't work you are doing it wrong....and yes I know I am wrong. But from my perspective you have decades of martial artists out there doing it wrong and yet hiding behind their high ranks saying this is the correct way.



I don't think you are wrong at all about being able to make something work. However when it comes to preserving a tradition I think the answer lies in, whether or not something would have worked back in the era it was created. I do think there are various martial artits out there who have been doing "it" wrong and they are found in all styles. So in general, I agree with you here.



Stealthy said:


> To be honest at first glance it looks like Ninjutsu has 15,000 defenses against one attack which is just ridiculous. Sooner or later the inclusion of variations and alternatives has to become a joke since nobody in their right mind could honestly say they can actually incorporate them all seemlessly into a fluid responsive fighting art.



I do think that some martial artists out there create needless variations to "make it work" when in reality the onl reason it isn't working to begin with is because they have not learned how to properly apply the lesson or technique. My teacher has a saying, "The technique never fails. You fail the technique." If someone does something the correct way it should work, when it doesn't it is usually because they did nomething wrong with footwork, or the set up, or their leverage is wrong or whatever.

I see nothing wrong with variations as long as they are rooted in principles that have been trained extensively, but if a person is always just making up sloppy solutions to an attack without any kind of tactical mindset then I feel it is time to go back to the fundamentals.


----------



## ronin7411 (Jul 13, 2011)

I'm going to say no more except for this look at this Youtube channel

http://www.youtube.com/user/Bujinkult 

and then look at the lead video for this channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uxxb6eVxrqI&feature=channel_video_title


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 13, 2011)

Looks to me like someone's got an axe to grind and a lot of time on their hands.  Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is what it is.  Like any art, its effectiveness is shaped primarily by how it is trained, not the material itself.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 13, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Looks to me like someone's got an axe to grind and a lot of time on their hands.  Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is what it is.  Like any art, its effectiveness is shaped primarily by how it is trained, not the material itself.



Exactly!


----------



## Stealthy (Jul 13, 2011)

The principle practice of Mikkyo Buddhism is Guru yoga which is reliance on the Spiritual guide as though he/she is a living Buddha, this is not a cult it is a several thousand year old full blown religion.

A "reliable" teacher will request his students to go out into the world and test the teachings. The Human mind is hard-wired to rely on others and it is only natural that deviant minds will exploit this *necessary *function and create cults for their own gain.

Is Ninjutsu a cult?..hardly, can it be?...of course but you don't have to be a Ninja master to start a cult.

It is only natural Hatsumi shuns anyone who refuses to rely on his teachings. Good luck finding a qualified teacher who wouldn't. Which is not to say Hatsumi is qualified just that no qualified teacher would waste their time on someone who refuses their principle practices so why would Hatsumi be any different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrayana#Guru_yoga

At this point most Western Ninjutsu practitioners jump in and start singing and dancing with the old Ninjutsu is not Mikkyo routine which technically it is not or rather it is not *only*. If you look back over the years Hatsumi has steadily shifted towards a more Buddhist approach and has shunned any who would not accept it.

I thank you for the clip but to be honest all I can say is it was made by a complete nincompoop with zero understanding of the principle practices of training the Mind.


----------



## Chris Parker (Jul 14, 2011)

ronin7411 said:


> I'm going to say no more except for this look at this Youtube channel
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/Bujinkult
> 
> ...



Johnny, for crying out loud, son, what are you trying to do? These clips are very old news, highly skewed, and fundamentally flawed. Do you really want me to dissect the "arguments" they give?

Seriously, give it a rest. Either come back with some actual argument, something new, or give it up! I'm a little sick of telling you the same damn thing every time you come back here like this, only to run off before you get yourself banned. Stop it, okay?

Actually, can we just ban him? I mean, since his original thread here, the only thing Johnny has done is turn up to disrupt threads (often nerco'ing them first) to give these non-arguments designed to upset and inflame those here. I'm sick of it, frankly. 

Johnny, consider the post reported in this light.


----------



## MJS (Jul 14, 2011)

Cryozombie said:


> I don't think I am being clear... because the Bujinkan is so big, the quality control issues show more than if it was small. If an organization sucked, and had 30 schools world wide, it would probably be less glaring than if it sucked and had 2000; There would be less videos, less demo's less places for people to see their failings. I think we are on the same page with this one, I just don't think I am explaining what I mean well.



Agreed, the Buj is a huge org. compared to the other 2.  But, in the end, wouldn't you say that the quality ultimately falls on the teacher?  Ex: someone jets to Japan to train.  If they suck while over there, I'd imagine someone would say something.  Now, we could hope that they'd take the advice of the senior person and improve, or they could just brush their advice off and continue down the wrong path.  But if they do continue down the wrong path, then yes, ultimately it'll be the trickle down effect....they'll produce poor students, who'll produce poor students, etc.  

I see the same thing in Kenpo.


----------



## MJS (Jul 14, 2011)

As for the off topic/trolling post by ronin....well, the rules are in place.  The posts been reported and will be dealt with.  My intent with this thread, was to keep it bash free.  If someone has something of quality to say (and many have BTW) thats fine, but if someone is here to turn this thread into a bash fest, please, go elsewhere.


----------



## Grenadier (Jul 14, 2011)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

I would like to remind everyone, that "art bashing" is *not* allowed.  

As the rules state:



> *1.10.2 No Art bashing.
> 
> *No one art is "the best", no one "style" is the best. All have their strengths and weaknesses. Do your research and find what best fits your ability and need.




If you want to promote your art, then you're encouraged to do so.  However, promoting your own art by bashing others is not allowed.  

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


----------



## Hudson69 (Jul 15, 2011)

I think there was better quality control when they still called it ninjutsu and it was rough and tumble.  When they made it all touchy feely they took a lot from it.


----------



## Krevon (Jul 17, 2011)

Mark Lithgow posted recently on facebook that Soke said the 5th dan test could be done with three 15th dans.  Thats great for someone like me who can't afford to go to Japan, but I'm afraid it'll hurt more than it helps.


----------



## Chris Parker (Jul 18, 2011)

It's certainly changed since "Only the Soke of Togakure Ryu can administer the test... the scrolls say that if anyone else were to administer it, they would suffer the wrath of heaven".....


----------



## kip42 (Jul 18, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> I am an outsider when it comes to the X-Kans, but it appears to me that in Jinenkan and Genbukan there is qualtiy control. Both Tanemura and Manaka Sensei teach each of the arts that they recieved Menkyo in and vet their students over years, before thos students recieve high Dan rank.
> In Bujinkan, although Hatsumi Sensei taught both Manaka and Tanemura Sensei, over the past few decades quality control has not been upheld and people have been promoted to ludicrously high rank, in a short space of time. I personally believe that Hatsumi gave out so many tenth Dans, that he created five more to distinguish the leadership of Bujinkan, and, sadly now has so many 15th Dans that rank in his association is meaningless.
> It appears that the Bujinkan has an ad hoc training doctrine. There is no set syllabus and people have been known to recieve tenth Dan through Richard Van Donk's DVD series.
> If I were you, I'd find a Jinenkan or Genbukan school and forget the Bujinkan.



I dont understand how you can get rank from a DVD series. It seems as if foot work and stuff is hard to learn unless an instructor can correct you on the spot. I cant believe you can get 10th Dan? I thought you had to go to Japan to get 5th?


----------



## Sanke (Jul 19, 2011)

kip42 said:


> I dont understand how you can get rank from a DVD series. It seems as if foot work and stuff is hard to learn unless an instructor can correct you on the spot. I cant believe you can get 10th Dan? I thought you had to go to Japan to get 5th?


 
You can indeed get official rank via RVD's DVD series, but how much you actually get out of it skill wise is an entirely different matter. 
Also, to the best of my knowledge, you do have to go to Japan to do the 5th dan test, and I believe there are trips arranged to go there as part of the DVD course, where a whole bunch of Van Donk's students go to all grade at once. 
IMO, the whole thing seems rather hollow, and devoid of spirit. One of the best parts of my martial arts experience has been meeting like minded people, many of whom I am now very happy to call my friends. 
If I'd tried to learn from a DVD mail order series, I'd probably barely be able to tell which which end of a sword to swing around, and certainly wouldn't have met any new people. 
So if I were you, I'd give any mail-order courses a miss


----------



## EWBell (Jul 20, 2011)

I think the 5th dan test in the Bujinkan can now be administered outside of Japan.  Recently I read that Hatsumi is allowing people to take it if there are three 15th dans present to witness it.  It seems that Hatsumi is requiring that the person taking the test be able to prove their rank, and some other requirements have been added.  Maybe someone who is familiar with the new system can post it.

For us in the Genbukan, you still have to get whacked by Tanemura Soke, and I doubt this will ever change.


----------



## MJS (Jul 20, 2011)

EWBell said:


> I think the 5th dan test in the Bujinkan can now be administered outside of Japan.  Recently I read that Hatsumi is allowing people to take it if there are three 15th dans present to witness it.  It seems that Hatsumi is requiring that the person taking the test be able to prove their rank, and some other requirements have been added.  Maybe someone who is familiar with the new system can post it.



I saw something on FB regarding the test and changes.  Tried to find a link, but had no luck.  Mark Lithgow was one of the people who posted it, so if anyone is on FB, you could probably read it.



> For us in the Genbukan, you still have to get whacked by Tanemura Soke, and I doubt this will ever change.



Its interesting too, how he'll change the pattern of strikes that he does.  Says that he does it to maintain authenticity.  I can agree with that.


----------



## EWBell (Jul 20, 2011)

MJS said:


> Its interesting too, how he'll change the pattern of strikes that he does. Says that he does it to maintain authenticity. I can agree with that.



To my knowledge, the cut does not change until you take the Shihan test.  For instance the Kyoshi test is like the Bujinkan 5th dan test, with a fukuro shinai  and your back to Soke.  For Jun-Shihan it is the same cut, but with a shinken.  However, for the Shihan test there are two cuts with a shinken, and on that one the order can change.

Now the Renshi test can be any cut, but on that one you are facing Tanemura Soke.


----------



## MJS (Jul 21, 2011)

EWBell said:


> To my knowledge, the cut does not change until you take the Shihan test. For instance the Kyoshi test is like the Bujinkan 5th dan test, with a fukuro shinai and your back to Soke. For Jun-Shihan it is the same cut, but with a shinken. However, for the Shihan test there are two cuts with a shinken, and on that one the order can change.
> 
> Now the Renshi test can be any cut, but on that one you are facing Tanemura Soke.



Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Troy Wideman (Aug 6, 2011)

Hi Eric,

Actually, I will clarify the point of the cut in the Kyoshi test. The cut can be either straight down to the floor or on an angle. The shihan test is two cuts.


Kind Regards,

Troy Widemanb


----------



## Troy Wideman (Aug 6, 2011)

Sorry, to add one more thing. The reason for this possibility of the change in the cut is so people do not just move their head but have to move the whole body and roll completely away. If you do not roll away sensei will cut you a second time and you will fail the test. The idea is to escape, so that you would escape a second cut, thus preparing you for the shihan test.


----------



## EWBell (Aug 6, 2011)

Thanks for clarifying that, Kyoshi Wideman.  I was only basing that off of the info available on the Honbu website.  Maybe one day I'll get to the level of taking that test..of course I might be 70 by that time.


----------



## bostonshinobi (Oct 18, 2011)

Hi Chris, I used to have that same question and was told by one of the japanese Shihan that its a Japanese custom for the new Soke to make notes alter or change things in each arts densho as long as the original teachings are there !


----------



## Chris Parker (Oct 19, 2011)

Er, okay, first, welcome aboard... next, uh, which part of this four page thread are you referencing here? Which question? Lastly, it isn't a Japanese custom at all, however it can be a typical occurance in Japanese martial arts, depending on the art itself. There are a number of arts who, as part of their teachings and traditions, actively avoid any major changes in such a way, and others who actively alter the curriculum with each new generation.

Feel free to stop by the Meet and Greet section and introduce yourself. Always good to have new members on board!


----------



## bostonshinobi (Oct 20, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Er, okay, first, welcome aboard... next, uh, which part of this four page thread are you referencing here? Which question? Lastly, it isn't a Japanese custom at all, however it can be a typical occurance in Japanese martial arts, depending on the art itself. There are a number of arts who, as part of their teachings and traditions, actively avoid any major changes in such a way, and others who actively alter the curriculum with each new generation.
> 
> Feel free to stop by the Meet and Greet section and introduce yourself. Always good to have new members on board!



Hi chris sorry about that ! Im still getting used to this message board! I was reffering about the Togakure section of the makimono that says that only the Soke cand give the sakki test....or they will suffer the wrath of heaven!


----------



## jks9199 (Oct 20, 2011)

bostonshinobi said:


> Hi chris sorry about that ! Im still getting used to this message board! I was reffering about the Togakure section of the makimono that says that only the Soke cand give the sakki test....or they will suffer the wrath of heaven!



Just a thought -- but could that be an admonition to ensure that the test isn't given willy-nilly and students don't end up killing each other "testing" themselves? 

But, from what I've read or seen, it's quite common for inheritors of systems, whatever title they're given, to make some small adjustments or contributions to the teachings.  And sometimes not so small...  Chris Parker has recounted how one koryu system actually went out and sought out particular sword training because they decided that it had come to be lacking.


----------



## Chris Parker (Oct 21, 2011)

bostonshinobi said:


> Hi chris sorry about that ! Im still getting used to this message board! I was reffering about the Togakure section of the makimono that says that only the Soke cand give the sakki test....or they will suffer the wrath of heaven!



Ah, cool. One thing to remember when it comes to the Togakure Ryu scrolls is that the Ryu was passed as an oral tradition only until Takamatsu wrote them down, so aspects such as that could be at the current Soke's discretion.... there are other things that come to mind, but I'm not going into that here.



jks9199 said:


> Just a thought -- but could that be an admonition to ensure that the test isn't given willy-nilly and students don't end up killing each other "testing" themselves?
> 
> But, from what I've read or seen, it's quite common for inheritors of systems, whatever title they're given, to make some small adjustments or contributions to the teachings.  And sometimes not so small...  Chris Parker has recounted how one koryu system actually went out and sought out particular sword training because they decided that it had come to be lacking.



Yep, that was the Hontai Yoshin Ryu, a sister art of our Takagi Yoshin Ryu. Guy Buyens has a very good article floating around somewhere about the Iai aspects of that system (incidentally, I had the opportunity to participate in a seminar on Hontai Yoshin Ryu Iai, lots o' fun!). Other alterations include systems changing focus completely (Takagi Ryu, which came to be Hontai Yoshin Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, and a number of others, was originally based around weapon use, but in the second generation came into contact with Takenouchi Ryu, and started to bring Jujutsu to prominence in their own curriculum), restructuring curriculum's, and so on. But then you have other systems where they are passed on with the understanding that they won't be altered (such as Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, or Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, who have the belief that their system is directly transmitted from Heaven, so to change it would be tantamount to sacrilige).


----------

