# Lineage differences



## Herbie (Oct 26, 2016)

My limited time training in Wing Chun was in the Leung Ting lineage.  The forward stance was 100% weight on the rear foot. Pivoting was done on the part of the foot just behind the ball of the foot.
I'm interested to hear what weight distribution other lineages use, where you pivot, and why.  Hopefully, without judgment or commentary on why any other method is "wrong."  Just what do you do, and why.
Thanks!


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## KangTsai (Oct 27, 2016)

I didn't know such little things were differentiated by a lineage. Thanks for teaching me something. I was guessing up to this point that you would stand mostly however you want.


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## Lobo66 (Oct 27, 2016)

The (forward) stance in WSL VT is a balanced 50/50 stance in terms of weight distribution. The width of the stance should be natural for the body, at least around the same width of the pelvis but not more than the width of the shoulders, and the length of the stance around the distance of one comfortable step forward.

The front foot is turned in slightly and the back foot turned out very slightly.  The hips and shoulders face the opponent.  It is "square on".

The advantage of this stance is that it is highly mobile.  It allows movement in all directions, allowing the fighter to move in and out of range quickly.  It facilitates using both arms and legs "evenly" in attack.  This stance is very stable as well due to the even weight distribution, but can be vulnerable to sweeps and low kicks.

In WSL VT we also use the pivoted (side) stance when in "safe distance".  Weight distribution is also 50/50, but the body is angled off around 45° in relation to the opponent.  This takes the front leg away from danger, but also allows mobility in all directions.  The fighter can advance and retreat on angles and "shift" the stance quickly, which can be used to cut off the opponent in offense and to control space and bait the opponent in defense.


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## KPM (Oct 27, 2016)

Herbie said:


> My limited time training in Wing Chun was in the Leung Ting lineage.  The forward stance was 100% weight on the rear foot. Pivoting was done on the part of the foot just behind the ball of the foot.
> I'm interested to hear what weight distribution other lineages use, where you pivot, and why.  Hopefully, without judgment or commentary on why any other method is "wrong."  Just what do you do, and why.
> Thanks!



In Pin Sun Wing Chun we also pivot on the part of the foot that is about 1 inch back from the ball of the foot and in the area of the K1 acupuncture point.  But we keep the weight distribution 50/50.  The "forward" stance is also 50/50.  We may transition to a 70/30 weight distro with a pivot under certain circumstances, but that would be the exception and not the rule.  We keep the "Kua" relaxed and use the waist to help generate power from the ground and legs, up the spine and out the arms.  The further your stance departs from a 50/50 distro, the less efficient and more difficult this becomes.  Also the more you depart from 50/50, the more inherently unstable you become.  We also use the "side body stance" as Lobo66 described, with weight 50/50.   In fact, we actually use the side body position more often than the front stance.  We tend to close with footwork taught in our Biu Choi set, which is often not taught in Ip Man Wing Chun until the Knife form.  But in Pin Sun it is taught early on and used pretty extensively.  We also tend to angle to the side and flank the opponent more...somewhat like what you see in William Cheung's Traditional Wing Chun.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 27, 2016)

I pivot on the middle of the foot. Weight distribution is a tricky thing. Sometimes I do 50/50, other times 30/70 (front/rear, respectively).


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## Danny T (Oct 27, 2016)

Stances are fleeting...for learning and training exercises in the beginning 100% on the rear. Pivoting on the ball to the center of the foot and toward the heel as needed. As on strengthens the legs and understand the changing of one's center of gravity weight distribution becomes more 80/20 (80 on the rear) in time it becomes more and more natural moving to 70/30, 60/40, and finally 50/50.
The thing about movement and weight distribution is there are times we many use any aspect of it.

We don't go into a physical altercation thinking, "is my weight distribution correct, is my hip tucked properly, am I pivoting on my heels or on my whole foot or ...? We will move in a manner that is most natural to us. Train, practice the system and when needed just do whatever you have to do to attack/control the opponent's center (core).

Some people say one is better than the other and visa versa.
I say it is always situational and you have better be able to switch as need be.
One pivot is quick but keeps you in the same positioning, another is slightly slower yet creates greater angle changes and range. What is needed? Some say 50/50 only... I ask do you knee or kick? 
Fighting is not the same as training form. Fighting is not the same as doing drills or exercises. The reality is within the dynamics of a physical confrontation many things may be utilize and your weight distribution, footwork, and stances will change several times during the altercation.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 27, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> I pivot on the middle of the foot. Weight distribution is a tricky thing. Sometimes I do 50/50, other times 30/70 (front/rear, respectively).


I've heard of this type of pivot also from a Silat instructor. I have a hard time imagining what it feels like, so either I'm entirely misunderstanding what you (and he) mean by a mid-foot pivot, or I just don't know how to do one. What I get when I try to pivot there is too much torque on the knee.


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## Juany118 (Oct 27, 2016)

Danny T said:


> .
> 
> We don't go into a physical altercation thinking, "is my weight distribution correct, is my hip tucked properly, am I pivoting on my heels or on my whole foot or ...? We will move in a manner that is most natural to us. Train, practice the system and when needed just do whatever you have to do to attack/control the opponent's center (core).
> 
> ...



Exactly this.  When you face a person you may be 50/50 or whatever (TWC starts 50/50).  Thing is, depending on what comes your way, whether you have to step or pivot (TWC actually seems to do bit more "stepping" than pivoting) it is not just up to you, it is a dynamic synergy between yourself and the opponent.


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## KPM (Oct 27, 2016)

^^^^ Sure.  I agree in a real exchange things are going to deviate and you are going to do what works!  But I took the OP's question as referring to the standard in training and practicing.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 28, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I've heard of this type of pivot also from a Silat instructor. I have a hard time imagining what it feels like, so either I'm entirely misunderstanding what you (and he) mean by a mid-foot pivot, or I just don't know how to do one. What I get when I try to pivot there is too much torque on the knee.


 
By "middle of the foot," what I mean is I try to visualized my weight there instead of, say, back in the heels. Otherwise I start to lose my balance. When that happens, my opponent doesn't need to worry about uprooting me...because I'm doing the job for them!


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 28, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> By "middle of the foot," what I mean is I try to visualized my weight there instead of, say, back in the heels. Otherwise I start to lose my balance. When that happens, my opponent doesn't need to worry about uprooting me...because I'm doing the job for them!


Thanks. I'll tinker with that a bit. Are you aware of any videos that demonstrate this and talk about the differences compared to other pivots?


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## Flying Crane (Oct 28, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I've heard of this type of pivot also from a Silat instructor. I have a hard time imagining what it feels like, so either I'm entirely misunderstanding what you (and he) mean by a mid-foot pivot, or I just don't know how to do one. What I get when I try to pivot there is too much torque on the knee.


You are probably initiating the pivot from on top, when you should initiate it from the bottom.  Meaning: you rotate from the shoulders and then drag your feet behind.

Instead, do the work with the feet.  Make the feet and ankles drive the turn while pressing into the ground, and rotate the torso as a result of that.

That is the proper way to pivot, and removes the stress from the knees.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 28, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Thanks. I'll tinker with that a bit. Are you aware of any videos that demonstrate this and talk about the differences compared to other pivots?


 
No, unfortunately I am not.

Another tip that helped me out was when someone suggested I pivot from the hips. The feet will follow.


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## KPM (Oct 28, 2016)

^^^^^ This is how we do it in Pin Sun.  The hips/waist move first.  Sometimes you pivot all you need without even moving the feet.  When the pivot needs to go further, the feet just naturally adjust to compensate.  Since the weight is kept over the center of the arch as much as possible, the pivot just naturally happens at a spot roughly at the K1 point.  I do not know what it means to pivot "at the middle of the foot" and am not even sure that's possible.  Your weight has to be far enough back for the toes to swing during the pivot, or far enough forward for your heels to swing during the pivot.  If you are "dead center" then both your heels AND your toes would be moving about the same degree and friction would be a huge factor because you would not be off-loading either the heels or the balls of the feet.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 28, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> No, unfortunately I am not.
> 
> Another tip that helped me out was when someone suggested I pivot from the hips. The feet will follow.


It's not for me to overrule how a different system does things, but I will comment because my system does pivot, a lot, to the point where it is a stand-alone skill that we practice over and over and over, as well as in the context of our fundamental techs and methods.  I suggest you look at my post, #12, where I suggest the pivot be driven by the feet.  If you pivot from above and the feet will follow, then you are dragging your feet.  That puts damaging torque on the knees, and the feet become anchors that you are dragging behind you.  This bleeds out the power you should be getting from the pivot, and gives you very little with which to power your technique.  The act of pivoting should be used to accomplish something, such as driving a technique like a punch.  It shouldn't be just changing positions, or at least not only or not all the time.  

If you drive with the feet, then you can get that full body power and you don't torque the knees.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 28, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> It's not for me to overrule how a different system does things, but I will comment because my system does pivot, a lot, to the point where it is a stand-alone skill that we practice over and over and over, as well as in the context of our fundamental techs and methods.  I suggest you look at my post, #12, where I suggest the pivot be driven by the feet.  If you pivot from above and the feet will follow, then you are dragging your feet.  That puts damaging torque on the knees, and the feet become anchors that you are dragging behind you.  This bleeds out the power you should be getting from the pivot, and gives you very little with which to power your technique.  The act of pivoting should be used to accomplish something, such as driving a technique like a punch.  It shouldn't be just changing positions, or at least not only or not all the time.
> 
> If you drive with the feet, then you can get that full body power and you don't torque the knees.


 
I have been pivoting this way for some time now, and I feel no torque in my knees. Also, the people who have done chi sao with me report no bleed out. In fact, I've gotten compliments on how my structure seems better since I started pivoting with this idea in mind.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 28, 2016)

KPM said:


> ^^^^^ This is how we do it in Pin Sun.  The hips/waist move first.  Sometimes you pivot all you need without even moving the feet.  When the pivot needs to go further, the feet just naturally adjust to compensate.  Since the weight is kept over the center of the arch as much as possible, the pivot just naturally happens at a spot roughly at the K1 point.  I do not know what it means to pivot "at the middle of the foot" and am not even sure that's possible.  Your weight has to be far enough back for the toes to swing during the pivot, or far enough forward for your heels to swing during the pivot.  If you are "dead center" then both your heels AND your toes would be moving about the same degree and friction would be a huge factor because you would not be off-loading either the heels or the balls of the feet.


If you press your feet into the ground and engage the feet to pivot, then it isn't a problem.  Yes, there is friction, think of grinding cockroaches into the ground with the bottom of your foot.  Both the heel and toes of the feet move during the rotation, which happens at a point slightly behind the ball of the foot.  But keep the heels down and engaged with the ground, during that movement.  If the drift up, you are compromising your root.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 28, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> I have been pivoting this way for some time now, and I feel no torque in my knees. Also, the people who have done chi sao with me report no bleed out. In fact, I've gotten compliments on how my structure seems better since I started pivoting with this idea in mind.


Ok, like i say, I'm not going to try to change what you do, but felt compelled to offer the suggestion.  I've got a feeling that if I showed it to you in person, it might be a lightbulb moment for you, but over an internet discussion it might not translate well enough.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 28, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> You are probably initiating the pivot from on top, when you should initiate it from the bottom.  Meaning: you rotate from the shoulders and then drag your feet behind.
> 
> Instead, do the work with the feet.  Make the feet and ankles drive the turn while pressing into the ground, and rotate the torso as a result of that.
> 
> That is the proper way to pivot, and removes the stress from the knees.


When I talk about pivoting, it's driven from the foot or from the hips. Mind you, I'm talking about pivots that keep the weight evenly distributed between the feet (in theory).


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 28, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> No, unfortunately I am not.
> 
> Another tip that helped me out was when someone suggested I pivot from the hips. The feet will follow.


I'll tinker next time I'm on the mats (I don't tinker with this stuff at home because dogs decide I'm playing and chew on my feet). Mind you, my knees are pretty sensitive, so it might just be my crappy knees complaining about something most folks wouldn't notice.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 28, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> When I talk about pivoting, it's driven from the foot or from the hips. Mind you, I'm talking about pivots that keep the weight evenly distributed between the feet (in theory).


Well, what I am talking about isn't an either-or thing.  It's not from the feet or the hips.  It's from the feet.  If you feel torque on the knees, then it's not being driven by the feet.  But like I said to wingchun100, may not be able to get the message across over a discussion like this,  it could be useful face-to-face.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 28, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, what I am talking about isn't an either-or thing.  It's not from the feet or the hips.  It's from the feet.  If you feel torque on the knees, then it's not being driven by the feet.  But like I said to wingchun100, may not be able to get the message across over a discussion like this,  it could be useful face-to-face.


Well, the feet can't actually create the rotation - that movement comes from the legs and hips.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 28, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Well, the feet can't actually create the rotation - that movement comes from the legs and hips.


Yes, the feet can.  It is absolutely fundamental to the system i study.  If you find yourself in the San Francisco area, I'll show you.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 28, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Yes, the feet can.  It is absolutely fundamental to the system i study.  If you find yourself in the San Francisco area, I'll show you.


I'm speaking anatomically. The feet are incapable of generating that movement - they cannot turn the bones in the leg. You're speaking of using a mental image, not the actual muscular movement.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 28, 2016)

The legs provide th power, but the feet engage, and yes the hips are also in loved.  It is a full-body thing, but it starts with the feet and legs.  It is definitely not hips first and feet follow.

Again, written discussion doesn't get the picture across.  If you are in town, drop me a line.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 28, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> The legs provide th power, but the feet engage, and yes the hips are also in loved.  It is a full-body thing, but it starts with the feet and legs.  It is definitely not hips first and feet follow.
> 
> Again, written discussion doesn't get the picture across.  If you are in town, drop me a line.


I'll do so - you and I are talking different languages, so to speak, and being in person would make it much easier.


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## KPM (Oct 29, 2016)

Wing Chun is a close-range art.  Pin Sun maybe emphasizes this a bit more than others.  We pivot just enough to get the job done.  When you are close, the pivot is often small.  So it comes from the Kua/hips and can be very fast and helps deliver "short power".  When a larger pivot is needed from a bit further out, the feet adjust for the increase in amplitude.  But even though the motion initiates from the hips, it is powered by the legs and the feet pressing into the ground.  There is no torque on the knees when done properly because the feet move naturally to compensate.  All footwork motions, including the pivot, are centered at and controlled by the Kua.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2016)

KPM said:


> Wing Chun is a close-range art.  Pin Sun maybe emphasizes this a bit more than others.  We pivot just enough to get the job done.  When you are close, the pivot is often small.  So it comes from the Kua/hips and can be very fast and helps deliver "short power".  When a larger pivot is needed from a bit further out, the feet adjust for the increase in amplitude.  But even though the motion initiates from the hips, it is powered by the legs and the feet pressing into the ground.  There is no torque on the knees when done properly because the feet move naturally to compensate.  All footwork motions, including the pivot, are centered at and controlled by the Kua.


That makes some sense. I'll need to find someone near me who can show me what those look and feel like.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 29, 2016)

And to clarify, my comments are not coming from a wing chun background.  I believe the principle is the same but the physical manifestation of how we train it is different.  Still, if you understand it you can see the commonality beneath it all.


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## wckf92 (Oct 29, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> That makes some sense. I'll need to find someone near me who can show me what those look and feel like.



these guys may be near you(?). They seem to be of the "WT" brand...

Bay Mountain Wing Tsun: Asheville NC | Facebook


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> these guys may be near you(?). They seem to be of the "WT" brand...
> 
> Bay Mountain Wing Tsun: Asheville NC | Facebook


They might - no location posted at website or FB, but I'll reach out to them. Maybe some folks to share ideas with.


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## wckf92 (Oct 29, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> They might - no location posted at website or FB, but I'll reach out to them. Maybe some folks to share ideas with.



I'm sure there must be more in the WNC area...just gotta google it. 
FWIW, if your primarily interested in WC's turning/shifting, keep in mind different families emphasize different methods, i.e. as far as I know the WT folks turn on the forward part of the foot, vs the middle, vs the heel etc etc. Good luck and let us know how it goes.


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## Eric_H (Nov 3, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Yes, the feet can.  It is absolutely fundamental to the system i study.  If you find yourself in the San Francisco area, I'll show you.



That offer open to anyone in the SF area?


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## geezer (Nov 3, 2016)

Contrary to Crane, we visualize the rotation being motivated by the _knees_. As GPSeymour noted, the actual mechanical power comes from the muscles that rotate the thigh at the hip joint, but _mentally_ focusing on adducting the knee works very well. It's similar to thinking of of the elbow as initiating rotation when going from tan to bong and back. The knee is seen as the "elbow of the leg".

Turning is trained using adduction of the knees to turn _one foot at a time_, pivoting on the center of the foot. The feet turn 45 degrees off center and the weight is shifted 100%. In practice movements and weight shifts are actually a good deal more flexible (like what Danny said) and I find the kind of thing that KPM was talking about (Alan Orr does it too) seems to come into play, especially as you start to loosen up and let the body flex. Heck sometimes the feet don't seem to turn at all, but that little hip-torso flex adds beaucoup power. Very relaxed and whipping. But them I'm constantly experimenting. It's just my nature. 

BTW, as most of the old timers here know, I started training WT back in '80 with my old sifu LT, so that still flavors what I do.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 3, 2016)

Eric_H said:


> That offer open to anyone in the SF area?


Potentially.  If you are going to be in the area, let me know, we'll see what we might work out.  My time is limited.


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## Eric_H (Nov 6, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Potentially.  If you are going to be in the area, let me know, we'll see what we might work out.  My time is limited.



Well, I live in SF, so hopefully we could find an overlap. Hit me up via DM and we can exchange numbers.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 7, 2016)

Eric_H said:


> Well, I live in SF, so hopefully we could find an overlap. Hit me up via DM and we can exchange numbers.


Oh indeed!


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## JPinAZ (Nov 17, 2016)

KPM said:


> ^^^^ Sure.  I agree in a real exchange things are going to deviate and you are going to do what works!



While I agree,  you're primarily going to do whatever is either instinctual (what we do with little-to-no training), or what is ingrained thru training to a point we don't have to think about it. This is somewhat tied into 'doing what works', but it's also separate because either could still be what doesn't work


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## lansao (Nov 29, 2016)

Hello! In the variant that I studied and practice, we leverage pivoting as a means of repositioning our feet to take a step. That said, we largely depend on taking small steps in an effort to "step out of the line of force." That said, our weight distribution strives for 50/50  and we take an angled stance. The argument for the 50/50 weight distribution is to avoid presenting our "missing tripod" to our opponents and to maintain mobility in as many directions as possible.

Hope this was helpful and tremendous respect to all lineages and their respective reasoning.

Here is a short video of the footwork section of our advanced sil lum tao (separate from our sil lum tao).






~ Alan, Wing Chun Student


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## KPM (Nov 30, 2016)

Thanks Alan!  Is this William Cheung lineage....Traditional Wing Chun?


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## lansao (Nov 30, 2016)

KPM said:


> Thanks Alan!  Is this William Cheung lineage....Traditional Wing Chun?


I learned it from Sifu John Wahnish who learned it from my Sigung Philip Holder who studied under William Cheung and Moy Yat before adapting the art and branching out with his own school.

~ Alan


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## KPM (Nov 30, 2016)

Ah!  Thanks!  Phil Holder used to write some good articles for the magazines in years past.  Haven't heard his name in a long time.


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