# How easy would it be to defeat a boxer by simply "attacking his weak legs" in particular with kicks? Specifically for an average out of shape Joe?



## Bullsherdog (Dec 9, 2021)

One of the cliches is that to defeat a boxer, you simply attack his legs since they are quite weak. Especially with kicks (which boxers are often seen as being terrible at taking).

Indeed I seen enough kickboxing vs boxer and MMA vs boxer at the professional level , and old school hardcore training full contact traditional martial artist defeat boxers that this is overall accurate.

However on the flip side I seen many amateur traditionalist martial artists, weekend kickboxers, and MMA fanboys who brag pro boxers are easy to defeat for the same reason. We are talking about average Joes who are out of shape by fighting standards (or even morbidly obese fatsos and frail skinny nerds) and only practise at best 1 hour a day and often on average only at the weekend (and even than rarely more than 30 mins, I know many who practise less than 15 mins).

Would it simply be easy as "attack the legs"? I ask this because I seen in a post months ago I think it was in the Muay Thai and amateur boxing subreddits of MT fighters saying they were losing to boxers of about equal skills and physical conditioning and it took advancing higher skills of both their boxing opponents and themselves in MT to finally demolish the boxing specialists with ease.

However this assumes the use of punches, elbows, knees, sweeps, etc the many stuff MT allows and not merely breaking legs.

Another reason I ask is since boxers do a lot of roadwork and roadwork is generally seen as one of the prime ways to train the legs in traditionalist karate and Savate to be both toughen up and hit hard, I wonder if their legs are so weak that an out of shape nerd doing a roundhouse ould easily break them? I mean in modern times many boxers do weight training such as kettlebell swings that often strengthens the legs so I find the "break the legs easily" cliche questionable for weekend warriors who don't train hard.

How is it? is it that simple? I mean I received kicks before from even people fit enough to compete with a degree of legitimate competence in high school sports including muscular football players and while receiving roundhouses and such did sting like hell, my legs wasn't broken even from the quite fit jock athletes.

Would you actually have to be fit enough to spare full contact at amateur tournament levels to "break legs easily with kicks" as the cliche goes?


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## Flying Crane (Dec 9, 2021)

When did Joe get all out of shape?  Last time I talked to him, he was a beast.  Oh Joe!  How hast thou fallen?


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 9, 2021)

Bullsherdog said:


> One of the cliches is that to defeat a boxer, you simply attack his legs since they are quite weak.


I’m not sure where you’re getting this “cliche” from. Boxers legs are not weak. They work their legs out hard.

it is a valid tactic to target the legs of a boxer because they aren’t used to lower body attacks (unless they have experience in another art, which many do). That’s different from being weak in the legs. And of course, being a valid tactic does not mean it’s guaranteed to work. After all, the boxer is attacking you at the same time and if you can’t handle his punches then you won’t have the chance to finish him with low-line attacks.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 9, 2021)

Since a boxer likes to have his chest to face you. The chest can be a better target. Just let your boxer opponent to run into your kick.

Foot sweep and knee stomp are good strategies too.


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## wab25 (Dec 9, 2021)

If you want to see how hard a boxer can punch, look at his legs. Thats what he uses to generate power in his punches.


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## wab25 (Dec 9, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since a boxer likes to have his chest to face you. The chest can be a better target. Just let your boxer opponent to run into your kick.
> 
> Foot sweep and knee stomp are good strategies too.


Boxers do not like to have their chest face you. Its called "squaring up" and when a fighter does that, he is open to be hit, and can generate no power... for the same reasons that many other martial arts discourages this as well. Some fighters will square up during a fight, just as many martial artists do as well. Every time, it puts the fighter squaring up, at a disadvantage. Even boxers will take advantage of it, if you square up against them.

Look up the different boxing guards, (the philly shell and such) none of them call for the boxer to square up. They all call for the boxer to be turned to the side, so as not to be open. Even when a boxer is on the ropes, they are taught to not square up.

*note: edited above to say that many martial arts discourage squaring up... there are some martial arts that do fight in a squared off stance. And they can generate power... but the technique is different than boxing technique. So a boxer would lose his power when squared up, unless he specifically trains another art to learn that technique. Thanks Crane!


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## Flying Crane (Dec 9, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Boxers do not like to have their chest face you. Its called "squaring up" and when a fighter does that, he is open to be hit, and can generate no power... for the same reasons that every other martial art discourages this as well.



Well, this is not correct.  Some systems can do it.  You definitely can generate good power from that position.  It is done.  But not many do it.


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## wab25 (Dec 9, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, this is not correct.  Some systems can do it.  You definitely can generate good power from that position.  It is done.  But not many do it.


Can you point me at a boxing system that fights from a squared up position? I have not seen one... but I am willing to learn about one that does.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 9, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Can you point me at a boxing system that fights from a squared up position? I have not seen one... but I am willing to learn about one that does.


I don’t know anything about boxing.   You said all martial arts don’t do this.  That is where you are mistaken.


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## wab25 (Dec 9, 2021)

Ah... I thought you were saying some boxer styles square up. I will edit my post above to say most other styles of martial arts. Thanks for pointing that out.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 9, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Ah... I thought you were saying some boxer styles square up. I will edit my post above to say most other styles of martial arts. Thanks for pointing that out.


You had already said that, which is why I responded.


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## Blindside (Dec 9, 2021)

Anybody who says a pro-boxer "is easy to defeat through technique X, Y, or Z" is a moron.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 9, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, this is not correct.  Some systems can do it.  You definitely can generate good power from that position.  It is done.  But not many do it.


@wab25, I may need to modify/clarify this statement.  If you remain squared it is very difficult to create good power because you cannot engage the full body very effectively.   But you can start from that position and rotate the torso with very good power, if it’s driven with the legs and feet.


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## drop bear (Dec 9, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Can you point me at a boxing system that fights from a squared up position? I have not seen one... but I am willing to learn about one that does.



Amateurs tend to.

So dudes like kostya Tszu who come from a very traditional boxing back ground square up.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 9, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Amateurs tend to.


I have sparred with many boxers they like to use the square stance because they like to have the same reach with both arms (not one long arm and one short arm).

In wrestling, it's called "cross stance". You have right leg forward but with left hand forward. It's the same as the square stance that you expose your chest to your opponent.

Advantage - your back hand is already in the compress stage and ready to be released.


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## dvcochran (Dec 9, 2021)

Bullsherdog said:


> One of the cliches is that to defeat a boxer, you simply attack his legs since they are quite weak. Especially with kicks (which boxers are often seen as being terrible at taking).
> 
> Indeed I seen enough kickboxing vs boxer and MMA vs boxer at the professional level , and old school hardcore training full contact traditional martial artist defeat boxers that this is overall accurate.
> 
> ...


The short answer is No.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 9, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Can you point me at a boxing system that fights from a squared up position? I have not seen one... but I am willing to learn about one that does.


Mike Tyson did a lot of fighting from a pretty squared up stance. It worked with the peekaboo style that he learned from Cus D'amato.

Mind you, he didn't stay rigidly squared up the whole time. As Flying Crane points out, it's a starting point that allows rotation  to either side to generate power.


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## punisher73 (Dec 10, 2021)

I'm not even going to get into "joe average" vs. a pro boxer.  That's ridiculous.

But, as to the overall question about kicking the legs, as with all things fight related.  It depends...one of the main factors is going to be which person controls the distance better.  Can the "kicker" maintain the distance he needs to stay out of range and employ his kicks effectively?  If he can't, does he have the tools to deal with the boxer to get it back to kicking distance?

But, I think we can look at MMA fights and see that if a person can employ kicks that aren't dealt with by the other person, it usually doesn't end well for the receiving person.


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## wab25 (Dec 10, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Mike Tyson did a lot of fighting from a pretty squared up stance. It worked with the peekaboo style that he learned from Cus D'amato.
> 
> Mind you, he didn't stay rigidly squared up the whole time. As Flying Crane points out, it's a starting point that allows rotation  to either side to generate power.


This is the part I was responding to:



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since a boxer likes to have his chest to face you.


Tyson did fight more square than most fighters... but he fought orthodox or south paw... meaning he had a front foot and back foot. The peekaboo style, still has a rotation, so that you are not fully squared up. And the chest would not be exposed in a peekaboo. 





Yes, Tyson does square up... but there are reasons he is doing so... and he does not stay there, chest open, easy to hit. He is switching stance, sliding and or feinting. And he does not stay there long. 

The way I look at Tysons fighting style, he squared up in transition. He would start orthodox, and then he would slide or switch stance as needed. There is a moment in time when he was squared up, but it did not last long and was used to put him in a position of advantage, where he was not squared up... either by rotation or foot movement or both.

Lastly, I would not say Tyson is like most boxers and I would not say that his chest was exposed and easy to hit. When Tyson's chest was facing the other guy, it was covered, he was moving or the other guy was fighting to remain on his feet because his bell had already been rung.

Interesting to note the quote in the video at 9:22 from Kenny Weldon
"Boxing is the art of hitting an opponent from the furthest distance away or closing the distance to box at an advantageous angle, *exposing the least amount of your body*, while getting into position to punch with maximum leverage and not get hit."


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## wab25 (Dec 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Advantage - your back hand is already in the compress stage and ready to be released.


This is true for most boxing stances as well. Peekaboo would be one of the exceptions. But most styles that I am familiar with, the back hand is compressed ready to go. Many of the styles also have the front hand ready to go as well, though there are a lot more that differ here.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 10, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Can you point me at a boxing system that fights from a squared up position? I have not seen one... but I am willing to learn about one that does.


Not boxers per se. some cma do it that way but not many.


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## J. Pickard (Dec 10, 2021)

I don't know man, every boxer I've ever met with more than 5 months of training have really strong legs. They may not use them to kick but footwork and having a strong base is something every boxer works diligently on. I don't thing an "out of shape average joe" is going to beat a trained boxer by trying to kick his legs. Boxers know how to use distance, out of shape average joes do not.


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## Oily Dragon (Dec 10, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Can you point me at a boxing system that fights from a squared up position? I have not seen one... but I am willing to learn about one that does.


The traditional Muay Thai stance is kind of square.  More than orthodox boxing, at least. 

The reason being they want to be able to use all eight limbs.


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## punisher73 (Dec 10, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> The traditional Muay Thai stance is kind of square.  More than orthodox boxing, at least.
> 
> The reason being they want to be able to use all eight limbs.



Agree.  Most MMA will also have a more square stance to avoid a lead leg that is more susceptible to leg kicks and takedowns.  Pure boxing doesn't have to worry about either, so their stance is designed to maximize its own techniques and tactics for the ring.


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2021)

But otherwise yes. Trying to do everything but getting in to a punching exchange with a good boxer would technically be the correct tactic.


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> Agree.  Most MMA will also have a more square stance to avoid a lead leg that is more susceptible to leg kicks and takedowns.  Pure boxing doesn't have to worry about either, so their stance is designed to maximize its own techniques and tactics for the ring.



Not really. MMA can go heavy on the front leg to avoid take downs. The downside is they eat leg kicks all day.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 10, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Not really. MMA can go heavy on the front leg to avoid take downs. The downside is they eat leg kicks all day.


To be fair, certain things aren’t allowed. How many knee kicks will that heavy front leg take? barefoot on a bouncy floor with rules is a certain type of thing.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 10, 2021)

drop bear said:


> But otherwise yes. Trying to do everything but getting in to a punching exchange with a good boxer would technically be the correct tactic.


This is true. Not letting the opponent do what they do best is solid advice.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 10, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Not really. MMA can go heavy on the front leg to avoid take downs. The downside is they eat leg kicks all day.


There exist no perfect fighting stance. A narrow stance is dangerous for double legs. A wide stance is dangerous for single leg and foot sweep.


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> To be fair, certain things aren’t allowed. How many knee kicks will that heavy front leg take? barefoot on a bouncy floor with rules is a certain type of thing.



Depends. If you fight John Jones. Then all of them.

Calf kicks are a better example. You can't really hit them on a thai style guy because that front leg is too loose.

But they are becoming a super weapon for MMA.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 10, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Depends. If you fight John Jones. Then all of them.
> 
> Calf kicks are a better example. You can't really hit them on a thai style guy because that front leg is too loose.
> 
> But they are becoming a super weapon for MMA.


That guy even tells people he is going to win with leg kicks. It’s just amazing how often it works.  I have good friends that train/fight Muay Thai at Fairtex in the Bay Area, they can wear you out and keep going.


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## Oily Dragon (Dec 10, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Not really. MMA can go heavy on the front leg to avoid take downs. The downside is they eat leg kicks all day.


They enjoy it.


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## Ivan (Dec 11, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Can you point me at a boxing system that fights from a squared up position? I have not seen one... but I am willing to learn about one that does.


Peek-a-boo


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## kfman (Dec 14, 2021)

Bullsherdog said:


> One of the cliches is that to defeat a boxer, you simply attack his legs since they are quite weak. Especially with kicks (which boxers are often seen as being terrible at taking).
> 
> Indeed I seen enough kickboxing vs boxer and MMA vs boxer at the professional level , and old school hardcore training full contact traditional martial artist defeat boxers that this is overall accurate.
> 
> ...


Go for the knees and groin.


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## jergar (Dec 14, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Boxers do not like to have their chest face you. Its called "squaring up" and when a fighter does that, he is open to be hit, and can generate no power... for the same reasons that many other martial arts discourages this as well. Some fighters will square up during a fight, just as many martial artists do as well. Every time, it puts the fighter squaring up, at a disadvantage. Even boxers will take advantage of it, if you square up against them.
> 
> Look up the different boxing guards, (the philly shell and such) none of them call for the boxer to square up. They all call for the boxer to be turned to the side, so as not to be open. Even when a boxer is on the ropes, they are taught to not square up.
> 
> *note: edited above to say that many martial arts discourage squaring up... there are some martial arts that do fight in a squared off stance. And they can generate power... but the technique is different than boxing technique. So a boxer would lose his power when squared up, unless he specifically trains another art to learn that technique. Thanks Crane!


I agree my dad was a boxer in the military, he taught me  how to box when I was a teenager , first rule was if your right handed left foot forward, right foot back when other person jabs you take a small step with the right foot block or deflect with left glove and pivot on right foot and power punch with the right glove so your never square with your opponent, at least that’s the way I remember it and I still use that movement in my king fu training minus the bobbing and weaving ha ha.


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