# Nerve strikes



## pineapple head (May 30, 2003)

Anyone know of useful sites on nerve strikes.?


----------



## gravity (May 30, 2003)

Related to the nerve strikes Doc Chapel does

http://www.aspoonful.com/About Chapel.htm (has video clips)
http://maxpages.com/edparkerskenpo

&

http://www.ssmma.com/GALLERY_VIDEO.HTML

This guy does Kenpo with Dillman pressure point strikes


----------



## Kempojujutsu (May 30, 2003)

Kyusho.com
Bob:asian:


----------



## pineapple head (May 30, 2003)

Thanks, some great video there.


----------



## satans.barber (May 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gravity _
> http://www.ssmma.com/GALLERY_VIDEO.HTML
> 
> This guy does Kenpo with Dillman pressure point strikes [/B]



Some of those demo videos look more than a little bit fake to me....in one of them, he seems to knock down a guy 20 feet away with, presumably, some sort of chi energy blast. Riiiiight....

Ian.


----------



## Doc (Jun 7, 2003)

Although reading about such information can be entertaining and informative to a degree, without competent hands on instruction within proper context it is an exercise in futility when it comes to applications.


----------



## gravity (Jun 8, 2003)

Doc Chapel,

In terms of self defense which do you think is more justified a sequence of nerve strikes or a kenpo technique? (I know this is very hypothetical)  

I suppose what I'm asking is how do law enforcement perceive someone who uses nerve strikes and someone who used 'normal' MA in self defense....are you held more accountable if you used nerve strikes? 

Finally, I can't help but wonder are there any permanent effects to the subject being struck by nerve strikes/ pressure point strikes? - perhaps headaches.... 

Thank You Kindly


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jun 8, 2003)

> Finally, I can't help but wonder are there any permanent effects to the subject being struck by nerve strikes/ pressure point strikes? - perhaps headaches....



 Yes    there can be.   It dependes on many things but yes a person can be parilised,  for a long or short period of time.  Head achs why not not sure what the strike was but I think so.

Miss the point and hit an artery or vein and cause a clot = possible death if it moves


----------



## Doc (Jun 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gravity _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Kempojujutsu (Jun 8, 2003)

In Ryukyu Kempo, they usually strike the attacker somewhere from 1-3 strike and end up with some kind of knockout. In what I have seen in EPK they are hitting the attcker as many times they can. some techniques have them striking a guy 8-12 times. Sure it is good to get as many strikes in on an attacker. But I have seen Ryukyu kempo where a guy gets knockout with one strike to the back of the arm (TW 12). 
Bob:asian:


----------



## gravity (Jun 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> *in EPK they are hitting the attcker as many times they can. some techniques have them striking a guy 8-12 times. Sure it is good to get as many strikes in on an attacker. But I have seen Ryukyu kempo where a guy gets knockout with one strike to the back of the arm (TW 12).
> Bob:asian: *



I understand what you mean, when I came to Kenpo from Japanese Ju Jitsu I found this aspect of multiple strike combos very fascinating (I still do actually )  But some days I feel there must be something more then simply throwing out a rapid sucession of strikes...perhaps there is and I'm not far along my journey yet :asian:


----------



## gravity (Jun 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *The effects of nerve strikes can be anything from temporary paralysis, an inability to breathe, all the way to death depending on the circumstances and intent. *



Doc Chapel,

I find this aspect of nerve strikes to be highly fascinating and scary (I hope to explore this aspect further in my journey).

What are your impressions on no touch knockouts? While I believe in Chi and internal energy I can't understand how the 'force' is emitted from the demonstrator to the subject without actual touch. With this said the demo clips I've seen showing the subject after he has been KO look quite authentic...he looks disorientated and all (from my uneducated perspective at least) 

Also with the 'intent' you mention above, is that a physical or mental intent. I saw a clip where the demonstrator mentioned how even with the same physical intent (force in the strike), having mental intent played a deciding part in KO effectiveness. I can certainly understand how physical intent can alter the severity of the nerve strike but I'm not sure about mental intent.

How does what you do Sir differ from other nerve striking arts. 

Finally I briefly read your May article in the Martial Arts Magazine from CFW Publishing...awesome stuff and insightful - BTW we get things real slow in Australia  


Thank you Kindly :asian:


----------



## Doc (Jun 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gravity _
> *Doc Chapel,
> 
> I find this aspect of nerve strikes to be highly fascinating and scary (I hope to explore this aspect further in my journey).
> ...


*
With no disrespect to anyone, and to put it as nicely as I can, it's just pure bullsht. Don't you find it interesting that this perspective only rears its ugly (and I do mean ugly) head in the martial arts? Boxers train as physically hard as anyone, and wouldn't it be nice if they could just "not touch" each other and get those big pay days. Better yet the police departments could all learn it and then they wouldn't have to beat suspects to control them they could just "raise an eyebrow" and  put the cuffs on him while he's unconcious. In no other facet of the real world does anyone ever intimate the possibility of "knocking someone out" without touching them. I've seen video of "no touch knockouts," and they are either bogus or they get "touched." (Don't ask me to explain that one.)



			Also with the 'intent' you mention above, is that a physical or mental intent. I saw a clip where the demonstrator mentioned how even with the same physical intent (force in the strike), having mental intent played a deciding part in KO effectiveness. I can certainly understand how physical intent can alter the severity of the nerve strike but I'm not sure about mental intent.
		
Click to expand...

The state of the mind has a significant bearing on all you do physically. The mind "configures the body" for your intent.



			How does what you do Sir differ from other nerve striking arts.
		
Click to expand...

Most that I've seen are conceptual based on the abstract or mistaken "bukai" found in kata. Sublevel Four Kenpo is about application in all phases and stages of its learning. Everything you do and how you are taught is based on cultivating skills to be effective utilizing those tools among others.



			Finally I briefly read your May article in the Martial Arts Magazine from CFW Publishing...awesome stuff and insightful - BTW we get things real slow in Australia 

Click to expand...


Thank you for the kind words. I have another article coming out this month as a regular writer contributor to the magazine. Depending on how far behind you are, it should be an anti grapple article that illustrates how easily you may finish a technique, even when the attack changes to a grapple.
Put a "schrimp on the barbie for me." 

PS Sorry for the slow reply I am not getting string reply notifications.*


----------



## gravity (Jun 9, 2003)

Doc Chapel,

Thank you Sir for your honest opinion. I have to admit I am doubtful of no touch KOs but attribute that to my limited knowledge on this aspect ... I'm highly intrigued by pressure point/ nerve strikes and find it hard to understand/ find credible sources. I suppose this is the case with any sophisticated endevour. 

Just another question  

You being in law enforcement and having the knowledge of pressure point/ nerve strikes (in my opinion the most deadly/ advanced  knowledge), how do you teach your students? - Do you emphase the ethical and moral obligation of knowing such dangerous techniques? From what I notice alot of schools teach potentially harmful/ deadly techniques yet many do not teach the ethics behind the usage of such knowledge...

Thank You Kindly & I definately will keep a lookout for your next article.


----------



## headkick (Jun 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *With no disrespect to anyone, and to put it as nicely as I can, it's just pure bullsht. Don't you find it interesting that this perspective only rears its ugly (and I do mean ugly) head in the martial arts? Boxers train as physically hard as anyone, and wouldn't it be nice if they could just "not touch" each other and get those big pay days. Better yet the police departments could all learn it and then they wouldn't have to beat suspects to control them they could just "raise an eyebrow" and  put the cuffs on him while he's unconcious. In no other facet of the real world does anyone ever intimate the possibility of "knocking someone out" without touching them. I've seen video of "no touch knockouts," and they are either bogus or they get "touched." (Don't ask me to explain that one.)
> 
> *



Here, here!  And I don't think you have to have to explain that one.  You notice how the 'victims' are students of the person doing the demo?  James Randi has $1 million, guaranteed, for the person who can demonstrate this under controlled conditions.  I love the responses I've seen from someone who could do this (allegedly) and failed.  The person he was demonstrating on had the ability to block chi!  Cool!  I guess, since I don't believe in that hooey, that I too, can block chi.  

May the Force be with you...

R


----------



## Doc (Jun 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gravity _
> *Doc Chapel,
> 
> Thank you Sir for your honest opinion. I have to admit I am doubtful of no touch KOs but attribute that to my limited knowledge on this aspect ... I'm highly intrigued by pressure point/ nerve strikes and find it hard to understand/ find credible sources. I suppose this is the case with any sophisticated endevour.
> ...


* 
You know that's a really good question, and we talk about these things in class regularly and it is reflected in the curriculum I was taught.

We recently discussed an article in the magazine I write for, where a high ranking black belt was demonstrating "Sword and Hammer."

Now as a "high-ranking" belt, you would suspect that he would/could mitigate the destructive potential of a technique where the attack is a simple shoulder grab from the side. But like most in the commercial arena, because the emphasis is on self-defense, the first strike is indicated to the throat even in the "manual" at a white/yellow belt level.

The ethical implication of this is very great. Clearly the strike to the throat has a high potential to cause serious permanent injury if not death. So why is a simple shoulder grab met with such a lethal response? Of course there are other mechanisms that could be applied, but the reality is these methodologies are not present in commercial Kenpo by Ed Parker's design.

After all, the focus is supposed to be on reasonably "quick self defense skills," designed for serious unwarranted aggressive interaction. But Ed Parker in his motion based structure expected, and anticipated instructors would impart a certain "reasonable thought process" to their teaching.

Instead, instructors of lesser skill, knowledge, or for reasons of their own, have chosen to take the "manual" as gospel when it is in fact only a "guide" for extreme circumstances to satisfy its self-defense mandate, and truly lacks specific information anyway. Because of this, it should never be taken literally on the response side of the equation. Only the assaults represented in the Web of Knowledge are significantly rigid enough that the "ideas" should be thoroughly examined from various perspectives, and to insure the self-defense mandate is "reasonably" explored.

To that end commercial Kenpo is a continuous flowing, motion based, striking art first and foremost, that is wholly conceptually driven. That is why it is ripe with hypothetical and questions of "what if." It must be structured this way because of what it is. If it were structured more like "traditional arts' with strict curriculum it would not be the self defense vehicle that it is. That is the genius of Ed Parker.

He created a commercial martial arts vehicle that focused on what the American public wanted, self-defense. Alternative applications for vertical grappling, grabs, locks, hugs, and holds along with joint manipulations and nerve applications are omitted from its structure and it only proposes you examine and explore these things, and does not teach them.

For those who have these things present in their study, it is because their instructors have the willingness or desire to examine other information, assimilate it, and apply it to their teaching of the structure. It is not present in the structure itself, so these instructors must be commended for attempting to draw "reasonable conclusions" from material that doesn't present anything but extreme examples.

Unfortunately most have embraced these extremes as the root of Kenpo's effectiveness, and in all honesty, in its commercial configuration they are correct. But I have always said the instructor will always determine and be responsible for the level of your Kenpo.

But Ed Parker in his wisdom addressed the ethics issue in the creed. Prominently displayed are the words, "... should I be forced to defend myself..., "..right or wrong..," "...life or death... etc"

The implications here are simple. The results of your action is your responsibility no matter what you are taught, and you are the only one that can determine the right or wrong of your actions, and only your own moral ethics should dictate what you would, or would not do in a self defense situation. This is a universal truth no matter what you study or who teaches it to you.

Some arts attempt to teach ethical responses by placing these responses in their curriculum, but these applications are significantly more difficult to teach and learn. Commercial American kenpo in an effort to satisfy its self-defense focus (as well as practical reasons of instructor availability, etc.) purposely does not include this information, and further makes no claim or warranty beyond its "quick self defense" theme and teaching. The bad news is belts are given, and the serious tend to gravitate to other or additional arts in and effort to fill in the "holes" of material not addressed by their Kenpo instructor.

In my own teaching and standardized curriculum, the ethics of a situation are thoroughly explored in context and even at our lowest level includes and mandates "ethical striking" within its basic techniques, long before defensive joint manipulations are introduced at much higher levels.

I also have the luxury of having very well educated, military, and law enforcement professionals as a significant part of our student body. Additionally, all applications to the student body are subject to a preliminary civil and criminal background investigation to determine moral and character suitability for admission. Needless to say there are many kenpo black belts that could not pass our requirements for admission. When your students are ex-military, doctors, lawyers, cops, and business professionals, ethics is something I could almost take for granted. It is a great teaching environment when your students are as intelligent and educated as you are. It keeps me on my toes in all areas, and any "illogical mystic bull" would be a hard sell to these students.*


----------



## Doc (Jun 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by headkick _
> *Here, here!  And I don't think you have to have to explain that one.  You notice how the 'victims' are students of the person doing the demo?  James Randi has $1 million, guaranteed, for the person who can demonstrate this under controlled conditions.  I love the responses I've seen from someone who could do this (allegedly) and failed.  The person he was demonstrating on had the ability to block chi!  Cool!  I guess, since I don't believe in that hooey, that I too, can block chi.
> 
> May the Force be with you...
> ...


Awww yes, "The Great Randi." Awesome magician. Ran into him at the Magic Castle in Hollywood. He's still got the money after what, about twenty years?


----------



## gravity (Jun 10, 2003)

Doc Chapel,

Very insightful stuff, especially the idealogy of the Kenpo system and Mr Parker's foresight on how instructors would interpret the system. 

I'm greatly amazed that with all the information out there in videos, books & the Internet not many authors/ instructors include a disclaimer on their techniques. I don't mean the simple 'these are deadly techniques - use only if threatened'. But rather the consequences and responsibilities one bares using such techniques on another human being. Sometimes it becomes so easy to get desensitised to these great techniques and forget the real effects they can have. 

Thank You Kindly


----------



## J-kid (Jun 10, 2003)

Id rather get hit in a nerve then in the jaw or face.  Inless you consider the balls a nerve !


----------



## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gravity _
> *Doc Chapel,
> 
> Very insightful stuff, especially the idealogy of the Kenpo system and Mr Parker's foresight on how instructors would interpret the system.
> ...


I agree with you completely. You would at least think it would be seriously addressed. being in law enforcement, we have to think about those things all the time. 

You know it makes you wonder why some studio owner hasn't been sued up the ying yang - unless maybe the stuff neing taught as deadly as it can be isn't working. Just a thought.


----------



## Kenpomachine (Jun 11, 2003)

Doc, I agree with almost all the stuf you've written about ethics and responsibility, except for the following part 



> When your students are ex-military, doctors, lawyers, cops, and business professionals, ethics is something I could almost take for granted.



These are people like the rest, so don't take it  _almost_ for granted. There's as many wolves under a university degree than elsewhere, if not more. They only show it other ways...


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *Doc, I agree with almost all the stuf you've written about ethics and responsibility, except for the following part
> 
> 
> ...



Enron, Iran-Contra affair, Some of our US Senators, hmmm, let's not take it for granted, I never do.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Doc (Jun 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *Enron, Iran-Contra affair, Some of our US Senators, hmmm, let's not take it for granted, I never do.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...


I've been in the business of putting people in jail a long time. I didn't put the word *almost* there in my previous statement on a whim. I've had several students who ended up incarcerated over the years, and yes one of them was a sheriff's deputy. Just because you come in "clean" doesn't mean you'll stay that way. I've been teaching 38 years, and I've seen a lot. But my students track records are better than most because I start from such a high standard. But I also realize pobody's nerfect.


----------



## kenpo_cory (Jun 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *But I also realize pobody's nerfect. *



Yeah I know pobody too, you're right he is nerfect.


----------



## Kenpomachine (Jun 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo_cory _
> *Yeah I know pobody too, you're right he is nerfect. *


 :rofl:


----------



## roryneil (Jun 12, 2003)

I don't understand the mystery about nerve strikes. They are all over Kenpo and I "am but a beginner...". The first strike in the first tech you learn, Delayed Sword, is against the nerve that runs along the wrist on the thumb side (I don't know all my "nerve names"). Am I missing something?


----------



## Doc (Jun 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by roryneil _
> *I don't understand the mystery about nerve strikes. They are all over Kenpo and I "am but a beginner...". The first strike in the first tech you learn, Delayed Sword, is against the nerve that runs along the wrist on the thumb side (I don't know all my "nerve names"). Am I missing something? *


Of course it's up to interpretation in some teachings but, that is not the strike that is of significance, and we do not strike the wrist at all. However that is an interesting perspective. What would be the purpose of striking that/a nerve in the sequence?

But the mystery is not that they exist for some, but how to utilize them. And this of course requires a significant amount of very specific knowledge that very very very few have.


----------



## roryneil (Jun 12, 2003)

Doc
   How are you not striking the wrist? And you hit there to make him let go right?


----------



## Doc (Jun 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by roryneil _
> Doc
> How are you not striking the wrist?


We don't strike the wrist because it will not accomplish our goal of "control" and the angle necessary along with the posture are not present or possible with the left hand.


> And you hit there to make him let go right?


No. Hitting there for a "nerve" will have no effect beyong blunt force trauma applications in this context. I in fact do not want him to "let go." I do however want to control his grip so I may release it when I desire. The concept of "Control Dominence" and "Control Release" are majors parts of SubLevel Four Kenpo. We always control and dominate the space between the bodies and never relinquish until completion.


----------



## Kempojujutsu (Jun 13, 2003)

points on the radial side of the wrist are used for applying wrist locks. Instead of striking it you should squeeze it. This causes the wrist to bend. Points are heart 4,5,6 and 7.
Bob:asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gravity _
> *Related to the nerve strikes Doc Chapel does
> 
> http://www.aspoonful.com/About Chapel.htm (has video clips)
> ...




 
No touch KOs...........:rofl:


----------



## Doc (Jun 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> *points on the radial side of the wrist are used for applying wrist locks. Instead of striking it you should squeeze it. This causes the wrist to bend. Points are heart 4,5,6 and 7.
> Bob:asian: *


While I won't dispute the applications you suggest to the Fire-Ring which is correct in one sense, that too would be out of context for the technique being discussed, what it purports to accomplish and would serve no purpose toward that end.


----------



## Doc (Jun 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gravity _
> *Doc Chapel,
> 
> Very insightful stuff, especially the idealogy of the Kenpo system and Mr Parker's foresight on how instructors would interpret the system.
> ...


The truth sir is the majority are essentially inept and are only marginally better capable of defending themselves then some with no training. Some worse.  The truth is if all those commercial techniques were so "deadly" we would have heard about it by now in the media, lawsuits, accidental deaths, etc.


----------

