# Interact with quality martial artists.



## drop bear (Jan 20, 2015)

Is possibly one of the more underrated concepts relating to martial arts advancement and personal advancement.

Find good fighters. Fight them. And be humbled by them. A constant quest to be the small fish in the big pond.

Which i accept is hard because it is much nicer to win all the time.


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## Blindside (Jan 20, 2015)

Absolutely!  And even if you get pretty big in that pond, you go find a pond of a range that you aren't good at, and you get to start all over again.


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## Chris Parker (Jan 24, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Is possibly one of the more underrated concepts relating to martial arts advancement and personal advancement.



Look, not to be argumentative, but… this is news to you? This is the basic, underlying concept of, well, how martial arts (and many, many other pursuits) have been trained for centuries… it's hardly under-rated, it's essential and fundamental to the structure of development and learning.



drop bear said:


> Find good fighters. Fight them. And be humbled by them. A constant quest to be the small fish in the big pond.



The idea of "fight them" isn't really essential at all… it can be (and I'd suggest it is) in sporting systems, as that's a major part of the development methodology there… but finding people better than you that you can learn from, including being "humbled by" (which doesn't necessarily mean anything to do with fighting), sure… but this is hardly new, or news.



drop bear said:


> Which i accept is hard because it is much nicer to win all the time.



Only if your idea of learning, or development (or training… or conversation… or any interaction) is based on "winning"…


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## Transk53 (Jan 24, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Is possibly one of the more underrated concepts relating to martial arts advancement and personal advancement.
> 
> Find good fighters. Fight them. And be humbled by them. A constant quest to be the small fish in the big pond.
> 
> Which i accept is hard because it is much nicer to win all the time.



Yeah good philosophy. I would say that one has to be humble enough to learn anything, well actually absorb would be better. A person could be in danger of just scrapping, which does not really do very much other add a few scars imho.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 24, 2015)

I have talked about this before on MT, so what the heck why not talk about it again.

About 20 years ago I was use to get together with a bunch of martial artists on Saturday afternoons and basically beta the heck out of each other, no attitudes (they didn't last long if you showed up with one), no anger, a lot of fun and you learned a heck of a lot.

We all had different backgrounds and many of us came from different styles, Taiji, TKD, Kenpo, Mantis, Aikido, Judo, Karate, etc. I don't ever remember anyone getting upset losing or making a big show of winning. I won a few and I lost a few, I learned respect for Aikido there and I took the greatest (and coolest) beating of my sparing life there from a Southern Mantis guy. Also got beat pretty good by an American Kempo guy too as well as shown just how good and devastating a good fake cam be from a tkd guy. I also learned that most had no idea how to defend against a good Xingyiquan Piquan, but then that was all the xingyi I knew then so they learned how to avoid it and I learned you can't keep doing the same damn thing over and over again....it hurts .

We did no underrate that experience we thought it was incredible and 20 years later I miss it, but there was a lot of learning going on there and there were more than a few quality MAist there too


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## Transk53 (Jan 24, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> I have talked about this before on MT, so what the heck why not talk about it again.
> 
> About 20 years ago I was use to get together with a bunch of martial artists on Saturday afternoons and basically beta the heck out of each other, no attitudes (they didn't last long if you showed up with one), no anger, a lot of fun and you learned a heck of a lot.
> 
> ...



Obviously from my background, training and such like was a little different. Well I say that, but not sure if I can present a qualified answer. As drop bear has alluded to with the OP, you can learn a tremendous amount by putting yourself into a sparring scenario or a friendly bout. At my last boarding school, it was all the rage to test each other. 30 odd years ago that was, but still remember with fondness


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## drop bear (Jan 24, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> The idea of "fight them" isn't really essential at all… it can be (and I'd suggest it is) in sporting systems, as that's a major part of the development methodology there… but finding people better than you that you can learn from, including being "humbled by" (which doesn't necessarily mean anything to do with fighting), sure… but this is hardly new, or news



No you have to fight them otherwise you cant really learn what they have to teach. We can all come up with great ideas. We cant all make them work.

Separates the doers from the talkers.


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## drop bear (Jan 24, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Yeah good philosophy. I would say that one has to be humble enough to learn anything, well actually absorb would be better. A person could be in danger of just scrapping, which does not really do very much other add a few scars imho.



it could happen.We have had scrappers. I have been towelled up by scrappers. And that is humbling.

I used to struggle with strong spazzy guys.

But my game has changed to be able to deal with scrappers and i am better for it.


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## drop bear (Jan 24, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Look, not to be argumentative, but… this is news to you? This is the basic, underlying concept of, well, how martial arts (and many, many other pursuits) have been trained for centuries… it's hardly under-rated, it's essential and fundamental to the structure of development and learning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just instinctively is isn't very nice to jump in with someone and get bashed or manhandled. It is hard work. For us there is always that guy who is going to give me a dog fight every time.(normally our coaches) And when i am tired and beat up and looking for a partner i legitimately want to go for the guy i wont have to work as hard on.

Especially when they are tapering up for a fight and they are sparring hard,not eating,and have their work face on.


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## Chris Parker (Jan 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


> No you have to fight them otherwise you cant really learn what they have to teach. We can all come up with great ideas. We cant all make them work.
> 
> Separates the doers from the talkers.



No, you don't. Not all martial arts work the same way. To get good at Kyudo, you need to work with those who know it better than you (quality Kyudoka)… you don't have to "fight" them.

Seriously, there's a lot more to martial arts than the small area you're familiar with. At this point, you're simply a frog in a well, to use a Japanese idiom… 



drop bear said:


> Just instinctively is isn't very nice to jump in with someone and get bashed or manhandled. It is hard work. For us there is always that guy who is going to give me a dog fight every time.(normally our coaches) And when i am tired and beat up and looking for a partner i legitimately want to go for the guy i wont have to work as hard on.
> 
> Especially when they are tapering up for a fight and they are sparring hard,not eating,and have their work face on.



Yeah… that's your situation… and, frankly, it's only one application of the idea you're talking about. I agree with your overall idea (as I said, it's just the standard way you improve in general), but the way it's done is very different in different systems and contexts. Believe me, it's not very nice to be on the receiving end of correction from a senior in Koryu either… it's plenty humbling, and no "fighting" is needed. Frankly, you'll get pulled apart in a much more devastating manner that way than from any sparring match.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Is possibly one of the more underrated concepts relating to martial arts advancement and personal advancement.
> 
> Find good fighters. Fight them. And be humbled by them. A constant quest to be the small fish in the big pond.
> 
> Which i accept is hard because it is much nicer to win all the time.



Well yes, that is how you learn, by taking on challenges and sometimes, if not quite often, losing. If you always win you don't learn anything and you don't make improvement.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 25, 2015)

Old saying in Chinese Martial Arts..... Invest in loss


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


> No you have to fight them otherwise you cant really learn what they have to teach.


So are you basically saying you can't learn from someone unless you are fighting them?


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## Danny T (Jan 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


> No you have to fight them otherwise you cant really learn what they have to teach.


NO, no, no!! Disagree completely with this. Have learned a huge amount from my instructors without having fought them. That's not to say I haven't learn from sparring but it was After learning from my instructors, practicing what was instructed, sparred it, reassessed, practiced some more fine tuning and again sparred it again. Learned far more from the fine tuning during practice than sparring. Sparring allowed me to know the when to use it not the how.


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## Transk53 (Jan 25, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> So are you basically saying you can't learn from someone unless you are fighting them?



I think what he means is that under certain conditions, fighting would allow a bigger perspective on what has been taught.


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## Buka (Jan 25, 2015)

Fighting/rolling/sparring those better than you can certainly help your game ("can", but not always)

But training and studying under them will usually help you more. (as long as they can teach) Besides, if you study under them you'll be sparring with them anyway.

And it's all so much fun!


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## drop bear (Jan 25, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> So are you basically saying you can't learn from someone unless you are fighting them?



No.but I still have to fight someone good. So i can learn a move of youtube. But the test is when i can do it. And it is the quality of that guy that raises my standards.


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## drop bear (Jan 25, 2015)

Danny T said:


> NO, no, no!! Disagree completely with this. Have learned a huge amount from my instructors without having fought them. That's not to say I haven't learn from sparring but it was After learning from my instructors, practicing what was instructed, sparred it, reassessed, practiced some more fine tuning and again sparred it again. Learned far more from the fine tuning during practice than sparring. Sparring allowed me to know the when to use it not the how.



I do kind of mean sparring as well. And sparring someone good. Getting a move of on a noob is not the same as getting one off on a quality guy.


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## drop bear (Jan 25, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> No, you don't. Not all martial arts work the same way. To get good at Kyudo, you need to work with those who know it better than you (quality Kyudoka)… you don't have to "fight" them.
> 
> Seriously, there's a lot more to martial arts than the small area you're familiar with. At this point, you're simply a frog in a well, to use a Japanese idiom…



You probably train differently for different results.


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## drop bear (Jan 25, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah… that's your situation… and, frankly, it's only one application of the idea you're talking about. I agree with your overall idea (as I said, it's just the standard way you improve in general), but the way it's done is very different in different systems and contexts. Believe me, it's not very nice to be on the receiving end of correction from a senior in Koryu either… it's plenty humbling, and no "fighting" is needed. Frankly, you'll get pulled apart in a much more devastating manner that way than from any sparring match.



Honestly i doubt that.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 25, 2015)

learning from those more experienced then you or those better at a certain part of the art are the best ways to learn. Fighting is only a small part of it.  I know I have learn enormous amounts while sitting at a table listening to others talk about things. I have also had complete strangers give me a word of advice, after watching me, which I latter tried and found to work well. 
Yes interaction with those better, more experienced, and more knowledgeable is where you learn.  Opening your ears is a good way to do it.


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## drop bear (Jan 25, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> learning from those more experienced then you or those better at a certain part of the art are the best ways to learn. Fighting is only a small part of it.  I know I have learn enormous amounts while sitting at a table listening to others talk about things. I have also had complete strangers give me a word of advice, after watching me, which I latter tried and found to work well.
> Yes interaction with those better, more experienced, and more knowledgeable is where you learn.  Opening your ears is a good way to do it.



i agree. I am suggesting it is an important element but not the only one. 

I am focusing on one aspect.


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## Danny T (Jan 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I do kind of mean sparring as well. And sparring someone good. Getting a move of on a noob is not the same as getting one off on a quality guy.


Agreed, sparring someone below your skills and abilities is good to help them as long as you don't overwhelm them. For your growth train, practice, and spar with those who are better than you.


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## Transk53 (Jan 25, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Agreed, sparring someone below your skills and abilities is good to help them as long as you don't overwhelm them. *For your growth train, practice, and spar with those who are better than you.*



Really that should be obvious, but very good words


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## Matt Bryers (Jan 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Is possibly one of the more underrated concepts relating to martial arts advancement and personal advancement.
> 
> Find good fighters. Fight them. And be humbled by them. A constant quest to be the small fish in the big pond.
> 
> Which i accept is hard because it is much nicer to win all the time.



I personally think cross training, sparring and having an open mind with other like minded quality martial artists is the one of the keys to developing true ability. 

You are presented with new techniques and concepts 
You roll / spar with people
And you get to see where flaws exist in your own game. 

In regards to winning... Everyone likes to win obviously. But there's a bigger picture... And that's the management and use of fear as a weapon. I think this might make a good new topic.


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## drop bear (Jan 25, 2015)

Matt Bryers said:


> I personally think cross training, sparring and having an open mind with other like minded quality martial artists is the one of the keys to developing true ability.
> 
> You are presented with new techniques and concepts
> You roll / spar with people
> ...



do a thread sounds fun.

My concept is probably more about loosing. So Say I manhandle every guy in my club. I am going to plateau a bit. I have to find an environment where i am loosing again.

Cross training is definitely part of it. But can also raise my point about quality. You see those martial arts that do defence against a wrestler or something. And they get one of their guys to imitate a wrestlers movements.

And because it is not really the same thing. The effect becomes different..


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## drop bear (Jan 25, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Really that should be obvious, but very good words



It is not natural.
 It is more natural to dominate lesser talented people.. It is easier and the rewards are quicker. 

I find i will instinctively take the easier fight. Especially in a club situation where i could choose to partner with a serious guy who is going to grind me for five minutes.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 26, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> I think what he means is that under certain conditions, fighting would allow a bigger perspective on what has been taught.


I suppose it depends on what you consider fighting.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 26, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I do kind of mean sparring as well. And sparring someone good. Getting a move of on a noob is not the same as getting one off on a quality guy.



As martial artists we must always remember that we do not train in a vacuum.



Danny T said:


> Agreed, sparring someone below your skills and abilities is good to help them as long as you don't overwhelm them.



Sparring someone lesser experienced and skills can also benefit you because then you can do some things you can not usually pull off on more skilled than you, which you then get better at and will thus have a better chance of doing it with a more experience opponent.



Danny T said:


> For your growth train, practice, and spar with those who are better than you.



Agree, if you don't challenge yourself you can not improve.


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## Transk53 (Jan 26, 2015)

drop bear said:


> a serious guy who is going to grind me for five minutes.



You want to grind for five minutes with a bloke


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 26, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> You want to grind for five minutes with a bloke


Beats twerking.


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## Transk53 (Jan 26, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> I suppose it depends on what you consider fighting.



Yeah maybe. The average Jo would be slappsies at dawn, then leg it wildly gesticulating on how the person is going to smash them up. Followed by lots of yawning from my perspective. Over the years though, I have heard it said that to know what a right cross is for example, it don't hurt to feel what a right cross is. To consider fighting though, I would imagine that our opinions would be poles apart, but probably not that different if you see what I mean.


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## Transk53 (Jan 26, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Beats twerking.



Yeah, don't have a big enough bum for twerking lol


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 26, 2015)

drop bear said:


> you have to fight them otherwise you can't really learn what they have to teach.


Will you be able to learn "hip throw" from just wrestling with someone?

I know a guy who has trained for 6 years. He loved sparring/wrestling. During sparring/wrestling, he always used his speed, power, and endurance. After 6 years, he still could not even apply a basic "hip throw" on any resisted opponent. It was very difficult to take him down, but he had not yet developed any skills to take his opponents down either.

You can "test" your skill in sparring/wrestling, but you can't "develop" your skill from sparring/wrestling. You can only develop your skill from "partner training".

One day Bruce Kumar Frantzis asked an old man about the application of the Taiji "needle at the bottom of the sea" in a park, while the old man tried to answer his question, Bruce moved behind the old man and gave that old man a "bear hug", he then said, "What will you do now?". After the old man took him down, Bruce asked what move did the old man used on him. The old man told him to figure it out by himself. The old man then left.

Old saying said, "If you want to teach someone, you don't fight him. If you want to fight someone, you don't teach him." Nobody will teach you how to fight if he thinks that you may fight him one day.


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Will you be able to learn "hip throw" from just wrestling with someone?
> 
> I know a guy who has trained for 6 years. He loved sparring/wrestling. During sparring/wrestling, he always used his speed, power, and endurance. After 6 years, he still could not even apply a basic "hip throw" on any resisted opponent. It was very difficult to take him down, but he had not yet developed any skills to take his opponents down either.
> 
> ...



conversely can you get a hip throw on a guy reliably after just drilling it. I know i couldn't because there is the mechanics of the hip throw and then there is the timing and opportunity.

then when i could get a hip throw to work i couldn't get it to work on good judo guys. So i imagine there will be another level to reach.

In our gym we had a bjjer train for a day,spar our coach,and at the end of the session say.
"I don't understand. I did everything i was supposed to but nothing seemed to work"

His system was fine, his training was fine, he had just come across a better martial artist.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 27, 2015)

If your opponent is much better than you and when you spar/wrestle with him, the record is always 15-0 (I like 15 rounds testing), after 3 years of such sparring/wrestling, he can destroy your self-confidence big time. Can you learn something? May be. But the amount of "self-confidence lose" can be much more than the experience that you may gain.

I don't like the term "invest in lose". If a girl has turned you down all the time, you may lose confidence to date other girls. Some people can get back up after been defeated. Some people cannot. In wrestling, a strong right hand person can change a weak right hand person to be a left hand person. Some people may not like to be forced to change.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 27, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Sparring someone lesser experienced and skills can also benefit you because then you can do some things you can not usually pull off on more skilled than you, which you then get better at and will thus have a better chance of doing it with a more experience opponent.



Yeah, what I tell people is this:

You need to spar people who are better than you - to expose your weaknesses, work your defense, learn by osmosis, and to generally stay humble.

You need to spar people who are worse than you - to work your offense and get reps polishing techniques you haven't yet fully mastered.

You need to spar people who are about your level - to get a little bit of competitive fire going and motivate yourself. ("Last week I was tapping him out. This week he's tapping me out! Next week I need to train harder and catch up!")


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## Steve (Jan 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> No.but I still have to fight someone good. So i can learn a move of youtube. But the test is when i can do it. And it is the quality of that guy that raises my standards.


A friend who is an MMAist told me that if you want to keep growing, and you're the toughest cat in your gym, you need to find a new gym.  "As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another."  Right?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 27, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> You need to spar people who are worse than you - to work your offense and get reps polishing techniques you haven't yet fully mastered.


Agree and this is a very important point. The 1st time that you ever make your technique to work against a fully resisted opponent was always be used against a weak opponent.

If you try to take an elephant down and fail 10,000 times, you may think that's your take down skill has problem. You may not think that because that elephant is just too huge.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 27, 2015)

Steve said:


> A friend who is an MMAist told me that if you want to keep growing, and you're the toughest cat in your gym, you need to find a new gym.  "As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another."  Right?


To spar/wrestle against a stranger is always easier than to spar/wrestle against an old training partner. Since your old training partner may already familiar with your "set up", your old skill may not work well on him any more. This will force you to develop new skills in order to be able to deal with someone who is familiar with your skill. So to stay in your old gym and force yourself to develop new skills is always good. If you go to a new gym, since your old skill may work well again, it may take your a long time for you to understand that it's about time for you to develop new skill again.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 27, 2015)

Steve said:


> A friend who is an MMAist told me that if you want to keep growing, and you're the toughest cat in your gym, you need to find a new gym.  "As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another."  Right?



Well... iron doesn't actually sharpen iron...


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## Transk53 (Jan 27, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well... iron doesn't actually sharpen iron...



Yeah stone pretty much does that.


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## Steve (Jan 27, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well... iron doesn't actually sharpen iron...


Hey, God said that.  Not me!


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If your opponent is much better than you and when you spar/wrestle with him, the record is always 15-0 (I like 15 rounds testing), after 3 years of such sparring/wrestling, he can destroy your self-confidence big time. Can you learn something? May be. But the amount of "self-confidence lose" can be much more than the experience that you may gain.
> 
> I don't like the term "invest in lose". If a girl has turned you down all the time, you may lose confidence to date other girls. Some people can get back up after been defeated. Some people cannot. In wrestling, a strong right hand person can change a weak right hand person to be a left hand person. Some people may not like to be forced to change.



We have a club mentality that disagrees. Anything achieved on our coach is a legitimate success. No free lunches. After a while you get used to it. And then he doesn't get any free lunches either.

If you want to make a dating analogy. Look up pick up courses and training. Because they invest in loss. They do set attacks. If they don't work there are back up attacks if that doesn't work there are other girls. It is not about getting that one girl first time.


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)

Steve said:


> A friend who is an MMAist told me that if you want to keep growing, and you're the toughest cat in your gym, you need to find a new gym.  "As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another."  Right?



That. 

And for all those semantic posters. What does a steel do?


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## Blindside (Jan 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> That.
> 
> And for all those semantic posters. What does a steel do?


 
Restores the edge, but doesn't actually sharpen.


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)

Blindside said:


> Restores the edge, but doesn't actually sharpen.



And why would you want to restore an edge?


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## Blindside (Jan 27, 2015)

So you can cut things....


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> That.
> 
> And for all those semantic posters. What does a steel do?



A sharpened edge, unless it's abused to the point of chipping, doesn't actually dull. The edge just rolls, forming a burr (the thing people feel with their thumbs that they mistakenly think means a blade is sharp). A steel straightens the burr and restores the edge.
A strop removes the burr, which is far better.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> We have a club mentality that disagrees. Anything achieved on our coach is a legitimate success. No free lunches. After a while you get used to it. And then he doesn't get any free lunches either.
> 
> If you want to make a dating analogy. Look up pick up courses and training. Because they invest in loss. They do set attacks. If they don't work there are back up attacks if that doesn't work there are other girls. It is not about getting that one girl first time.


Can a Judo white belt be able to throw a "high level Judo black belt" even if they may wrestle for 10,000 rounds (15 rounds per day for the next 2 years)? I have seen a high level person wrestle with a low level person for over 10 years and the score was always 15-0. What can that low lever person learn in those years?


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Can a Judo white belt be able to throw a "high level Judo black belt" even if they may wrestle for 10,000 rounds (15 rounds per day for the next 2 years)? I have seen a high level person wrestle with a low level person for over 10 years and the score was always 15-0. What can that low lever person learn in that 2 years?



so the low level judo belt is doing something the high level isn't.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> so the low level judo belt is doing something the high level isn't.


He may have learned there are something that he did wrong. But what was wrong? When a girl turns a guy down, she may not tell him why. So what can that guy learn?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 27, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Can a Judo white belt be able to throw a "high level Judo black belt" even if they may wrestle for 10,000 rounds (15 rounds per day for the next 2 years)? I have seen a high level person wrestle with a low level person for over 10 years and the score was always 15-0. What can that low lever person learn in that 2 years?



In TEN YEARS this "low level" person never learned anything? That's just sad.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 27, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> In TEN YEARS this "low level" person never learned anything? That's just sad.


You may have a luck punch on your opponent, but you will never have a luck throw on your opponent. If a Judo white belt can take down a high level Judo black belt, there is something wrong in that high level black belt training.


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> He may have learned there are something that he did wrong. But what was wrong? When a girl turns a guy down, she may not tell him why. So what can that guy learn?



But obviously they were taught different throws. Or the white belt was taught wrong. Otherwise both throws would work.


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## Blindside (Jan 27, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You may have a luck punch on your opponent, but you will never have a luck throw on your opponent. If a Judo white belt can take down a high level Judo black belt, there is something wrong in that high level black belt training.



After 10 years of training that judo white belt was still a white belt?  Maybe I didn't understand what you meant.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> But obviously they were taught different throws. Or the white belt was taught wrong. Otherwise both throws would work.


They may learn the technique (the 1st 50%) exactly the same way. But their "ability (the other 50%)" may be different. The high level guy may be stronger, faster, ...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 27, 2015)

Blindside said:


> After 10 years of training that judo white belt was still a white belt?  Maybe I didn't understand what you meant.


Of course the low level guy was no longer be a white belt. Even if he had reached to his black belt after 10 years, the other high level guy had reached to even higher level. The difference between him and the other guy was still there.


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## Blindside (Jan 27, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> They may learn the technique (the 1st 50%) exactly the same way. But their "ability (the other 50%)" may be different. The high level guy may be stronger, faster, ...



What if the low level guy is stronger and faster and gets 10 years of skill to back it up?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 27, 2015)

Blindside said:


> What if the low level guy is stronger and faster and gets 10 years of skill to back it up?


If we agree with that "strength can defeat 10 best techniques" then that equation will change. In my example, the low level guy was not stronger and faster. The technique is the 1st 50%. The ability is the other 50%. IMO, the ability include speed, strength, endurance, flexibility, balance, ...


----------



## Blindside (Jan 27, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If we agree with that "strength can defeat 10 best techniques" then that equation will change. In my example, the low level guy was not stronger and faster.



So your example was essentially " a bigger, stronger, faster more experienced guy will beat a weaker, slow, less experienced guy."  Uh, OK, I am not sure that is exactly news.  Now did the that slower, weaker less experienced guy get better against other fighters?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 28, 2015)

Blindside said:


> So your example was essentially " a bigger, stronger, faster more experienced guy will beat a weaker, slow, less experienced guy."  Uh, OK, I am not sure that is exactly news.  Now did the that slower, weaker less experienced guy get better against other fighters?


Of course he could defeat someone with less skill and less ability. If we remove strength, the following is always true.

know how > fast > slow > don't know how

So when a pretty girl reject you (general YOU), what you have learned are:

you are not

- good looking enough,
- educated well,
- rich enough,
- ...

If you decide to change that, that girl's rejection can be a good thing after all. If you just give up and lose your self-confidence, that will be a bad thing. IMO, to "interact with quality MAists" can be the same as to "date a pretty girl".


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## drop bear (Jan 28, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> They may learn the technique (the 1st 50%) exactly the same way. But their "ability (the other 50%)" may be different. The high level guy may be stronger, faster, ...



It may be the years of honing his technique against quality oponants.


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## drop bear (Jan 28, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Of course he could defeat someone with less skill and less ability. If we remove strength, the following is always true.
> 
> know how > fast > slow > don't know how
> 
> ...



how to handle rejection.
How Should I Deal With Rejection By Women 

But if you want to pick up a girl courting loss is the best way. You are not going to loose confidence if you accept you wont date every girl you talk to.


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## Transk53 (Jan 28, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you decide to change that, that girl's rejection can be a good thing after all. If you just give up and lose your self-confidence, that will be a bad thing. IMO, to "interact with quality MAists" can be the same as to "date a pretty girl".



Not really true at all. That a sweeping statement against a quality martial artist and a pretty girl.


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## MJS (Jan 29, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Is possibly one of the more underrated concepts relating to martial arts advancement and personal advancement.
> 
> Find good fighters. Fight them. And be humbled by them. A constant quest to be the small fish in the big pond.
> 
> Which i accept is hard because it is much nicer to win all the time.



Agreed!  While I admit that my initial journey in the arts was a bit tainted for lack of better words, lol, I do give credit where it's due, so if it wasn't for my initial teachers, I'd never have come across the fantastic people that I currently have in my life today.  Unfortunately, while I don't always get to see these people on a regular basis, I am thankful for the lessons that I did have with them.  It's funny, because sometimes the best people out there, are the ones that don't necessarily draw tons of attention to themselves.


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## Chris Parker (Jan 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You probably train differently for different results.



I train to learn the arts I'm training. Believe it or not, fighting skill, in and of itself, isn't really that much of a factor… for a few reasons… one of which being that, well, it's rather irrelevant.



drop bear said:


> Honestly i doubt that.



Ha, okay… then I will simply defer to my years of experience, knowledge, and understanding of what I'm talking about… I've done the sports thing, I've done the sparring thing, and I've done the Koryu mental beatdown thing… and trust me, I can have you in tears from simply telling you how you're doing… far easier than by "beating" you in sparring… 



drop bear said:


> i agree. I am suggesting it is an important element but not the only one.
> 
> I am focusing on one aspect.



It's not just that… it's that you're focusing on only one aspect of only one context, and only one approach. It's not the only, nor indeed the best, most universal aspect. Again, the basic idea (work with those better than you that can help you improve, through example, demonstration, or whatever) is right and good… but, again, is simply the way things work… but the idea of "fighting" them is of very limited relevance and effectiveness, depending on the system, your level, and the way the "fight" goes down.



drop bear said:


> It is not natural.
> It is more natural to dominate lesser talented people.. It is easier and the rewards are quicker.



Look, to be honest, that's only more "natural" for people who would be identified as thugs and bullies… so… no.



drop bear said:


> I find i will instinctively take the easier fight. Especially in a club situation where i could choose to partner with a serious guy who is going to grind me for five minutes.



Really? To be blunt, that sounds like you have a bit of an issue with your ego when it comes to training then… and value "feeling good" over actually learning and developing… as I said, this is all just pretty much the standard, which is coming across as some kind of major revelation to you… this could be why.


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## Transk53 (Jan 31, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Really? To be blunt, that sounds like you have a bit of an issue with your ego when it comes to training then… and value "feeling good" over actually learning and developing… as I said, this is all just pretty much the standard, which is coming across as some kind of major revelation to you… this could be why.



I believe drop bear means club as being a venue, or what we call such a thing as standard work speak.


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Really? To be blunt, that sounds like you have a bit of an issue with your ego when it comes to training then… and value "feeling good" over actually learning and developing… as I said, this is all just pretty much the standard, which is coming across as some kind of major revelation to you… this could be why.



No it doesn't you are misreading the post and the intent. And feeling good is not about ego.

You have to understand the level of sparring we do. It is hard. We move up to 80% contact do five minute rounds and i spar pro fighters. 

Look they are good guys but I really don't want to jump in a cage and get flogged by them for five minutes.

Unfortunately to get good it is a necessary part of training.


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Look, to be honest, that's only more "natural" for people who would be identified as thugs and bullies… so… no.



where did you train sports fighting? Because it will give me an idea of the sort of environment you are thinking when you said you have experience in it.

A lot of sports fighting clubs have classes for non fighters. So you can have experience in sports fighting and not really have experience in sports fighting.


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> It's not just that… it's that you're focusing on only one aspect of only one context, and only one approach. It's not the only, nor indeed the best, most universal aspect. Again, the basic idea (work with those better than you that can help you improve, through example, demonstration, or whatever) is right and good… but, again, is simply the way things work… but the idea of "fighting" them is of very limited relevance and effectiveness, depending on the system, your level, and the way the "fight" goes down.



Most successful fighters spar good guys. So it is defiantly the trend. Myself and a few other posters have suggested why it is an essential element to becoming better. You can argue the logic but. You cant appeal to authority here.

You are not a successful fighter and do not train successful fighters. So your recommendations are of course taken with a grain of salt. If you had a reason for it and it made sense I would consider it. But not just accepted as a statement of Chris fact.


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Ha, okay… then I will simply defer to my years of experience, knowledge, and understanding of what I'm talking about… I've done the sports thing, I've done the sparring thing, and I've done the Koryu mental beatdown thing… and trust me, I can have you in tears from simply telling you how you're doing… far easier than by "beating" you in sparring…



I would be really interested in what you mean by "done the sparring thing"

I don't know what your years of experience count for here. Years of experience is not a get out of jail free card. It is the basis in which you can explain your point. I have years of experience but some of that isn't very effective experience. That is sometimes just the way of martial arts. You do it because they did it and nobody ever really thinks about it.

People want martial arts to work. I want martial arts to work. Sometimes it just doesn't. And fighting quality guys is the best way for me to find out if it works or not.


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> I train to learn the arts I'm training. Believe it or not, fighting skill, in and of itself, isn't really that much of a factor… for a few reasons… one of which being that, well, it's rather irrelevant.



And that is the difference in focus. If you are not training for fighting skill then of course your methods will be different as well as your results will be different.

If you are trying to preserve an art form fighting quality guys is the last thing you want to do. Because either your art form will get changed or you will get beat up a lot.


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## Drose427 (Jan 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> And that is the difference in focus. If you are not training for fighting skill then of course your methods will be different as well as your results will be different.
> 
> If you are trying to preserve an art form fighting quality guys is the last thing you want to do. Because either your art form will get changed or you will get beat up a lot.





drop bear said:


> Most successful fighters spar good guys. So it is defiantly the trend. Myself and a few other posters have suggested why it is an essential element to becoming better. You can argue the logic but. You cant appeal to authority here.
> 
> You are not a successful fighter and do not train successful fighters. So your recommendations are of course taken with a grain of salt. If you had a reason for it and it made sense I would consider it. But not just accepted as a statement of Chris fact.



Both of these points have some big flaws.. There are lost of schools and MA's who dont sport fight often, dont free spar full contact, don't spar successful sport fighters or train them, and can still defend themselves with relative ease.  Are they not good fighters because they arent sparring other people within a specific ruleset? Free-Sparring is a good tool, but just that. while I believe it is important, its far from the most important aspect in terms of SD. If you dont have the hang of moves and concepts of SD where there arent rules, free sparring 24/7  under X number of rules isnt going to help you. Being able to free spar within a ruleset doesn't mean you'll be able to defend yourself. Even boxers panic. Most MMA gyms dont cover SD as deeply as many TMA schools. Whereas the TMA schools dont train for MMA. You need to evaluate what you're labeling as "fighting".

If I remember right, Chris Parker doesnt do free sparring. But he does do SD on resisting opponents. If he's able to defend himself, is he still not a successful fighter simply because he doesn't sport fight? I'm noticing a trend where, although you're nice about it and far from rude, you hold sport fighting above all other types of training. But this is a huge flaw. 1. People were defending themselves long before sport fighting. Heck, they were long before TMA's. 2. There are a lot of things you will never learn training for a respective sport unless you personally take out the time to step outside your comfort zone. Your standard MMA gym isn't teaching knife defense or awareness training. They may offer it through their BJJ or if they have a TMA, but it's not part of the Cage Fighting Curriculum.  

Just something to think about while you and Chris butt heads


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Both of these points have some big flaws.. There are lost of schools and MA's who dont sport fight often, dont free spar full contact, don't spar successful sport fighters or train them, and can still defend themselves with relative ease.  Are they not good fighters because they arent sparring other people within a specific ruleset? Free-Sparring is a good tool, but just that. while I believe it is important, its far from the most important aspect in terms of SD. If you dont have the hang of moves and concepts of SD where there arent rules, free sparring 24/7  under X number of rules isnt going to help you. Being able to free spar within a ruleset doesn't mean you'll be able to defend yourself. Even boxers panic. Most MMA gyms dont cover SD as deeply as many TMA schools. Whereas the TMA schools dont train for MMA. You need to evaluate what you're labeling as "fighting".
> 
> If I remember right, Chris Parker doesnt do free sparring. But he does do SD on resisting opponents. If he's able to defend himself, is he still not a successful fighter simply because he doesn't sport fight? I'm noticing a trend where, although you're nice about it and far from rude, you hold sport fighting above all other types of training. But this is a huge flaw. 1. People were defending themselves long before sport fighting. Heck, they were long before TMA's. 2. There are a lot of things you will never learn training for a respective sport unless you personally take out the time to step outside your comfort zone. Your standard MMA gym isn't teaching knife defense or awareness training. They may offer it through their BJJ or if they have a TMA, but it's not part of the Cage Fighting Curriculum.
> 
> Just something to think about while you and Chris butt heads


See i go the other way with that theory. If you cant be successful sparring with rules how are you going to fair in a fight without them. If you are successful with rules then you will be more successful when the rules are not holding you back.

Now that is not a reason to abandon survival or street methods but it is a reason to train in a system that is at the very least starts with good fighting basics.

Ok SD on resisting opponents is sport as i imagine you are describing it. Very few people when they say SD. Are suggesting that you go out and get practice mugged. So it becomes training in a gym under a rule set.

wrestling is one of the oldest martial arts. Sumo pretty much predates most Japanese systems. So i would suggest sort fighting is as old as any system and possibly older.

But yes mma does not cover everything required to do be well rounded in self defence. But here i advice people seek out quality guys. So if you want to stay out of jail. Legal advice from a qualified lawyer who has gone though it would be better than the advice from your self defence coach.

Specifically regarding knife defence is tricky. Because there is so much theory and misinformation. And so little real data.


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## Drose427 (Jan 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> See i go the other way with that theory. If you cant be successful sparring with rules how are you going to fair in a fight without them. If you are successful with rules then you will be more successful when the rules are not holding you back.
> 
> Now that is not a reason to abandon survival or street methods but it is a reason to train in a system that is at the very least starts with good fighting basics.
> 
> ...



For the first part easily. I cant step in the cage. Reason being, last time I heard of and did this with my MMA friends, I instinctively tried to do the SD techs I've drilled into my head. I.E. When they try to clinch, I headbutt, and stomp down on the knee. shin, and foot. After a bit of adrenaline gets in my system, when theyd shoot, the first thing Id try to do after a sprawl was a downward punch or elbow to the back of the head. After the first couple times, I was able to catch myself but it was really affecting my ability to spar under their ruleset. 

When we split it up, which is how most gyms actually train for those who dont know, it wasn't _that_ bad. Mostly with grappling, because after I hurt my shoulder the only grappling and rolling I do is SD oriented. Instead of worrying about scoring and protecting myself from being scored on, Im drilling sprawling, getting back to a neutral position, and never stopped attack with something no matter what. With striking, I work with 3 different rulesets so I dont get so used to one that it becomes how I fight.

I cant box anymore either, because Ive put so much time trying to get all 4 limbs working as one that I kick, which is obviously a no-no.



Training for specific set of rules as your focus is a restriction.


Second, your implication that for a school to have good fighting basics must be sport oriented is very flawed. The military doesnt teach sport fighting, yet I'd doubt your typical Sport fighter could beat up a Marine.

Third, not sure what youre going for. Theres little difference between a drunk guy in the parking lot swinging at you and someone else twice as large as you coming for blood in a training hall.

Fourth, yes but cavemen were defending themsels from other cavemen long before Greco-Roman wrestling. Before sport or style. Animals fend off predators in the wild, are they not really fighting for their life because they dont train in sport?

Fifth, you basically just proved my point. Sport training isnt the "best" way to go about learning to defend yourself. It cant be since you have to add SD training to it. Your argument of "Sport fighting is the best method" is essentially the same as saying style X is better than style y because we do this and you do not. Or, you do it a different way.

Yes, theres a lot of theories. But there are also many simple concepts to understand techs to learn so that you at least have _some_ knowledge or idea of how to respond. But i've never seen it in an MMA gym. I have no doubt, gyms with a separate SD program will have it. But I;ve never seen it as part of a Sport curriculum under any style. Aside from the minute possibility you need it in SD, you probably will never use or see it in a tournament, so why should a sports school teach it?

Another problem, I did Bullpin sparring and 2 v 1 kickboxing with my MMA friends. It didnt end well. They spent so long training to focus on one opponent and blocking out the rest, because in the ring they'll never fight 2. They had a hard time balancing it out. Whereas in 5 years of SD focused non sport style, my heads on a swivel. WE teach to always be aware and take note of everyone and everything in any given place, the mantra "have a way to kill everyone you see." They hadn't even heard that from their coaches.

Obviously, regardless of your style, cross training and exposure are the 2 most important things. But the idea that Sport Training is a necessity is a fallacy.


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Second, your implication that for a school to have good fighting basics must be sport oriented is very flawed. The military doesnt teach sport fighting, yet I'd doubt your typical Sport fighter could beat up a Marine.


just this one specifically.
Of course your typical sports fighter can beat up a marine. Why would you think otherwise?


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> If you cant be successful sparring with rules how are you going to fair in a fight without them. If you are successful with rules then you will be more successful when the rules are not holding you back.



I have known many street fighters (gang members, bikers, etc.) in my day and not a one of them would have been  any good fighting within a set of rules but they sure could kick butt in the street or in a bar.


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## Drose427 (Jan 31, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> I have known many street fighters (gang members, bikers, etc.) in my day and not a one of them would have been  any good fighting within a set of rules but they sure could kick butt in the street or in a bar.



They really are two different monsters entirely


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> I have known many street fighters (gang members, bikers, etc.) in my day and not a one of them would have been  any good fighting within a set of rules but they sure could kick butt in the street or in a bar.



yeah but how did these street fighters get good?

Because if it ends with something something fight quality guys........


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## Drose427 (Jan 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> yeah but how did these street fighters get good?
> 
> Because if it ends with something something fight quality guys........




Well it still isnt sport fighting....so that "Sport fighting best" argument is still flawed..


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> I have known many street fighters (gang members, bikers, etc.) in my day and not a one of them would have been  any good fighting within a set of rules but they sure could kick butt in the street or in a bar.



Oh and bikers here employ mma guys as stand over men. It has become a very Brisbane thing.


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Well it still isnt sport fighting....so that "Sport fighting best" argument is still flawed..



Really why?


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## Drose427 (Jan 31, 2015)

When has Street Fighting and Sport Fighting ever been the same thing? I didn't realize I could, throw chairs, bottles, smash heads off bartops, eye gouge, groin strike, bite, headbutt, throw downward elbows, pick up anything I wanted in the cage. If they could to be good at street fighting _from street fighting_ by doing those (^) types of things _in street fighting_. You can't attribute any of their prowess to Sport fighting or Sport training they never had.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 31, 2015)

They got good by fighting all the time getting their butts handed to them and doing it again till they learned what worked best for them.

Drose,
two different monsters in what respect?  I quoted 


drop bear said:


> If you cant be successful sparring with rules how are you going to fair in a fight without them. If you are successful with rules then you will be more successful when the rules are not holding you back.


and I gave an example of those that do not use rules as opposed to those that do.
I will agree if you follow rules you may be able to defend yourself outside of the training area but I put my money on those that live by not following the rules in fights  with the exception of the police who must stay close to the rules they abide with


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 31, 2015)

sorry I did not realize we where trickily talking about the cage or sport.
Ok to get better at sport train under someone who can point out your flaws. Correct those flaws and train some more. Fight/spar as often as you can practice dose help perfect your ability.


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## Drose427 (Jan 31, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> They got good by fighting all the time getting their butts handed to them and doing it again till they learned what worked best for them.
> 
> Drose,
> two different monsters in what respect?  I quoted
> ...



By exactly what you said. One, you train to do Whatever it takes to survive. NO restrictions. I agree that cops should be held to a higher standard on that note. Whereas in sport training, you do whatever you're allowed to do in order to win under that rule-set.
So essentially, SD and Sport training are 2 different entities and though processes. You have a different mindset facing a sport opponent then you would fighting for your life.  My whole debate with DB, was his argument that Sports training is a better overall method for SD than nonsport training


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jan 31, 2015)

ok I see where your coming from. 
one thing I would point out is if your( anyone in general)  attitude going in is not that /youthey can win they need to rethink. Not having a winning mind set is one of the fasted ways to lose be it sport. professional, street.
Playing by the rules and a street fight are the same in that respect. 
Who dose better in the street, one who only practices sport or one who practices self defense all the time well I can not answer that one myself. so  I'll bow out now


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> sorry I did not realize we where trickily talking about the cage or sport.
> Ok to get better at sport train under someone who can point out your flaws. Correct those flaws and train some more. Fight/spar as often as you can practice dose help perfect your ability.



I am not specifically talking about sport. The debate has come up again. But given your friends. What does that say about self defence training?

I mean if being a toughie is less about training and more about living a toughie lifestyle. Are all of us just wasting our time?


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> By exactly what you said. One, you train to do Whatever it takes to survive. NO restrictions. I agree that cops should be held to a higher standard on that note. Whereas in sport training, you do whatever you're allowed to do in order to win under that rule-set.
> So essentially, SD and Sport training are 2 different entities and though processes. You have a different mindset facing a sport opponent then you would fighting for your life.  My whole debate with DB, was his argument that Sports training is a better overall method for SD than nonsport training



This is not sport vs SD though. The bikers are not SD men either. What we have done here is add a new dynamic to the conversation that dose not bolster either argument except mabye in some small over flow.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 31, 2015)

nope I survived in that company just fine.  Made a lot of friends and they respected what I did/do. Only had oneor two try me and after that no one else did.  
Training  can help you survive you just need to know when to use it and not brag about it or what you just did. 
Much of surviving in that company is based on attitude mutual respect and how you interact with others.  HHHHMMMM sounds a lot like the arts doesn't it
but this is getting off the op and I apologize for that


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> When has Street Fighting and Sport Fighting ever been the same thing? I didn't realize I could, throw chairs, bottles, smash heads off bartops, eye gouge, groin strike, bite, headbutt, throw downward elbows, pick up anything I wanted in the cage. If they could to be good at street fighting _from street fighting_ by doing those (^) types of things _in street fighting_. You can't attribute any of their prowess to Sport fighting or Sport training they never had.



So i can come to your gym and glass somebody in sparring?


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Is possibly one of the more underrated concepts relating to martial arts advancement and personal advancement.
> 
> Find good fighters. Fight them. And be humbled by them. A constant quest to be the small fish in the big pond.
> 
> Which i accept is hard because it is much nicer to win all the time.



yes it is one way to get better. Possibly not the only way but it dose help if you learn from your mistakes, have a coach/trainer, instructor that can point out your flaws and you improve on them.
Practice on basics also helps more than people think.
a mindset that you will be the best you can be is also necessary


----------



## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> nope I survived in that company just fine.  Made a lot of friends and they respected what I did/do. Only had oneor two try me and after that no one else did.
> Training  can help you survive you just need to know when to use it and not brag about it or what you just did.
> Much of surviving in that company is based on attitude mutual respect and how you interact with others.  HHHHMMMM sounds a lot like the arts doesn't it
> but this is getting off the op and I apologize for that



my point here is it is a different dynamic. SD. Training is not the same as living life as a street fighter.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So i can come to your gym and glass somebody in sparring?


if you  or anyone on MT is near my place the doors are open for an interchange of ideas and techniques. My doors have always been open to all who wanted to meet. If my place of practice is not open I know 3 other places in the area that we can use.


oh I did not live the life of a street fighter I was a medic and a pressman at a newspaper during those years


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> yes it is one way to get better. Possibly not the only way but it dose help if you learn from your mistakes, have a coach/trainer, instructor that can point out your flaws and you improve on them.
> Practice on basics also helps more than people think.
> a mindset that you will be the best you can be is also necessary



 i have said that their are other important training methods. I thought that would be implied as in any other thread.


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## Drose427 (Jan 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> This is not sport vs SD though. The bikers are not SD men either. What we have done here is add a new dynamic to the conversation that dose not bolster either argument except mabye in some small over flow.



If the bikers are being attacked on the street in no competitive medium, with danger of injury or worse, it's Self-Defense. Whether they've had SD training or not. By your earlier logic, even if they successfully defended themselves, they arent successful fighters because they haven't trained sport. 



drop bear said:


> So i can come to your gym and glass somebody in sparring?



Not in free sparring, but in SD I'll give you rubber or hard plastic knife myself when we do SD. You can swipe or stab anyway you like. After 5-10 minutes, we switch off whos got the weapon.



drop bear said:


> my point here is it is a different dynamic. SD. Training is not the same as living life as a street fighter.



Neither is Sport Training. But according to what you told Chris, that makes them unsuccessful fighters. If people can defend themselves in street brawls, or when being attacked without sports training, its hard to call an emphasis on sport a necessity.

I would rather _know_ I can defend myself against a 200 lbs man out for blood using what I've learned and drilled in SD, than hope I can break my Sports habits and fight someone considerably larger, which I may rarely do in a Sports Setting.


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> if you  or anyone on MT is near my place the doors are open for an interchange of ideas and techniques. My doors have always been open to all who wanted to meet. If my place of practice is not open I know 3 other places in the area that we can use.
> 
> 
> oh I did not live the life of a street fighter I was a medic and a pressman at a newspaper during those years



Yeah but i bet nobody is going to like me glassing people in training. I certainly wouldn't. It is a common argument that is made that sports training has rules and then assumed self defence training does not.

And come on guys self defence training does precisely for the same reason we do.

So I cant go in to a gym and glass someone.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 31, 2015)

what the hell is glassing


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Not in free sparring, but in SD I'll give you rubber or hard plastic knife myself when we do SD. You can swipe or stab anyway you like. After 5-10 minutes, we switch off whos got the weapon.



What with rules?

See now we are sports training


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> what the hell is glassing



Where I hit you with something glass. Hoping to cut half your face off.


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## Drose427 (Jan 31, 2015)

What rules? switching off so we both learn? You can swipe, stab, and cut any part of the body. I said that, no size restrictions, no restrictions as to where I can strike you, or how I can take you down, I fail to see where you picking out rules from.


tshadowchaser said:


> what the hell is glassing


Cutting with glass, whicccchhh correlates to knife Defense which most SD schools do.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 31, 2015)

wow I dont know of any place that lets one do that I have seen people put through glass door and windows but thats different.  If anyone planning on using glass in my school all I would tell them at your own risk because if their are no rules then different things happen. I doubt anyone on this forum knows who or what my students are or their qualifications.  
So I must ask have you pulled this glassing in any other school or is this something you dream of doing to someone if you can not win any other way or maybe just some sick dream you have had

but once again we are way off your OP  this is your thread so if you do not care I certainly do not


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Neither is Sport Training. But according to what you told Chris, that makes them unsuccessful fighters. If people can defend themselves in street brawls, or when being attacked without sports training, its hard to call an emphasis on sport a necessity.
> 
> I would rather _know_ I can defend myself against a 200 lbs man out for blood using what I've learned and drilled in SD, than hope I can break my Sports habits and fight someone considerably larger, which I may rarely do in a Sports Setting.



So you are saying what you do in training is the same as what a street fighting biker does?

Because people who do not train sport but have won a heap of street fights obviously are able to defend themselves. Somehow I just don't think of Chris as being the sort of biker enforcer being discussed. 

I am certainly not one and have no wish to be. I have known a few and they live pretty terrible lives.


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> What rules? switching off so we both learn? You can swipe, stab, and cut any part of the body. I said that, no size restrictions, no restrictions as to where I can strike you, or how I can take you down, I fail to see where you picking out rules from.
> 
> Cutting with glass, whicccchhh correlates to knife Defense which most SD schools do.



I don't get a real glass for one.


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> wow I dont know of any place that lets one do that I have seen people put through glass door and windows but thats different.  If anyone planning on using glass in my school all I would tell them at your own risk because if their are no rules then different things happen. I doubt anyone on this forum knows who or what my students are or their qualifications.
> So I must ask have you pulled this glassing in any other school or is this something you dream of doing to someone if you can not win any other way or maybe just some sick dream you have had
> 
> but once again we are way off your OP  this is your thread so if you do not care I certainly do not



I get off topic anyway but this is still interesting. I am still tying to make this point 

In mma you don't glass people because rules yeah?

In tma you don't glass people because rules yeah?

in sd training you don't glass people because rules yeah?

So where does this idea that one system trains with rules and one doesn't. It would be insane to train without rules.


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## Drose427 (Jan 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So you are saying what you do in training is the same as what a street fighting biker does?
> 
> Because people who do not train sport but have won a heap of street fights obviously are able to defend themselves. Somehow I just don't think of Chris as being the sort of biker enforcer being discussed.
> 
> I am certainly not one and have no wish to be. I have known a few and they live pretty terrible lives.



No, but many of the situations I do train for are situations they;re most likely to see i.e. drunk bar brawl, swinging a weapon like a bottle or knife.

You've ignored this argument completely. So I'll ask again, if someone without Sports Training can defend themselves, how is it a necessity? This whole debate began from that argument.



drop bear said:


> I don't get a real glass for one.



No, but rubber knives still tear skin pretty easily, I have electric ones from FMA as well, and the same techniques for knife will work on glass. A difference in choice of weapon hardly constitutes a sport medium.



drop bear said:


> I get off topic anyway but this is still interesting. I am still tying to make this point
> 
> In mma you don't glass people because rules yeah?
> 
> ...



Because SD rules, usually only apply to power delivered. Theres no restriction on movement, techniques, target areas, size of the people training. What you learn in a school isnt limited to what you can do in the sport setting. SD, you imitate glassing, many times using other painful method. Whereas in training for a sport, you most likely never will.


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> No, but many of the situations I do train for are situations they;re most likely to see i.e. drunk bar brawl, swinging a weapon like a bottle or knife.
> 
> You've ignored this argument completely. So I'll ask again, if someone without Sports Training can defend themselves, how is it a necessity? This whole debate began from that argument.



It isn't necessary as all martial arts training is not necessary. But fighting quality guys is necessary. Which is the common ground between that street fighting biker and sports training.


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> No, but rubber knives still tear skin pretty easily, I have electric ones from FMA as well, and the same techniques for knife will work on glass. A difference in choice of weapon



I have a set of padded gloves that we could use to simulate fighting pretty realistically as well.

What is the difference?


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## Drose427 (Jan 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> It isn't necessary as all martial arts training is not necessary. But fighting quality guys is necessary. Which is the common ground between that street fighting biker and sports training.



I agree that working with quality instructors or training is important. But that was not the point in question


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Because SD rules, usually only apply to power delivered. Theres no restriction on movement, techniques, target areas, size of the people training. What you learn in a school isnt limited to what you can do in the sport setting. SD, you imitate glassing, many times using other painful method. Whereas in training for a sport, you most likely never will.



So we are breaking the fight quality guys rule. And so discounting our biker friend.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 31, 2015)

ok we are off topic 
so I'll just say there was a gentleman in cal. that was an ex special forces person. He trained a few people.  The rules of his school were drink before during and after class so you know what you can do under those condition. Only live blades are to be used or hatchets, spears. Bring your insurance papers and He must have a written paper with permission to get you to a hospital and authority to grant medical treatment till your family arrives.
  It was a darn interesting class.. Don't know if he still has classes they where pretty private with only about a dozen student at any one and he would be in his 70's by now

Now he did not teach sport but he taught SD. He was trained in the military, in the Philippians, in Norway (I think his ancestors where vikings), and on an Indian reservation. Yes he had rules  mainly stay alive and try what you think will work. And yes control was used but people still got hurt on occasion.  BUT his rules are not what other would want in their training places


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## Drose427 (Jan 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I have a set of padded gloves that we could use to simulate fighting pretty realistically as well.
> 
> What is the difference?



Fake knives, look like and move like real knives. All the same techs apply. Gloves v not gloved, a grappler will say there are techs he cant do in terms of hand joints. Personally, doesnt affect me. We dont use gloves when doing SD, most of us have had the black eyes and shed the blood to be used to it. 



drop bear said:


> So we are breaking the fight quality guys rule. And so discounting our biker friend.



I fail to see how any of that applies. You can do SD with quality partners and instructors just like anything else and have the same effect.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 31, 2015)

Folks I keep pulling  this from the OP and your discussion so I am taking myself out of the thread for now I apologize for sidetracking the thread


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> I agree that working with quality instructors or training is important. But that was not the point in question



The point in question is that a biker with no training. And that is no self defence. Or no sports training has either the natural ability or has learned by some method the ability to defend himself.

And we are trying to figure out what that element is. Now you seem to keep linking it to self defence training. But I don't see the link. Because he does not do self defence training.

I assume he does not practice with rubber weapons either.

He does fight people. There is a link.


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> ok we are off topic
> so I'll just say there was a gentleman in cal. that was an ex special forces person. He trained a few people.  The rules of his school were drink before during and after class so you know what you can do under those condition. Only live blades are to be used or hatchets, spears. Bring your insurance papers and He must have a written paper with permission to get you to a hospital and authority to grant medical treatment till your family arrives.
> It was a darn interesting class.. Don't know if he still has classes they where pretty private with only about a dozen student at any one and he would be in his 70's by now
> 
> Now he did not teach sport but he taught SD. He was trained in the military, in the Philippians, in Norway (I think his ancestors where vikings), and on an Indian reservation. Yes he had rules  mainly stay alive and try what you think will work. And yes control was used but people still got hurt on occasion.  BUT his rules are not what other would want in their training places



There is a law of diminishing returns a bit though. In that at some stage just copping the beating might be easier than training to avoid it.

There is a level i think where it can start to work against you a bit.


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Folks I keep pulling  this from the OP and your discussion so I am taking myself out of the thread for now I apologize for sidetracking the thread



Well kind of because i think there is a definite link between biker guy fighting quality guys and thus gaining self defence skills.

I would have said that is a perfect example because that is all he has done.

The only place i would really argue there is he may be taking the concept a bit far out of what is good for you individually and what is generally acceptable in society. This would also apply to that live knife stuff.  Which are factors most of us have to consider.


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> I fail to see how any of that applies. You can do SD with quality partners and instructors just like anything else and have the same effect.



Except if you drop the contact to much you are not really fighting them.


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## Drose427 (Jan 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> The point in question is that a biker with no training. And that is no self defence. Or no sports training has either the natural ability or has learned by some method the ability to defend himself.
> 
> And we are trying to figure out what that element is. Now you seem to keep linking it to self defence training. But I don't see the link. Because he does not do self defence training.
> 
> ...



No, the point I called you out on in the beginning was in your conversation with Chris Parker. Where you were adamant about _needing_ to physically fight. Added to some of your other posts, which showed (and you admitted earlier in our debate) that  you very much believe sports training to be a necessity, which you just now admitted was false. You also claimed Chris was never a successful fighter, which is like saying the biker isn't although he can successfully defend himself.

Why should one Free Spar, when we can completely recreate someone twice your size, belligerent, Swinging at your face at full power thus recreating the scenario of your average street fight? Why are 5 minute rounds necessary when I can take him down in less than one? 



drop bear said:


> Except if you drop the contact to much you are not really fighting them.



Thats the point. Full sparring isnt as important as simple recreation. Whens the last time a street fight went 20 minutes?
No, I dont need to break my partners knee or rib. But if theyre the attacker theyre still going to try to break my nose.

Working with and learning from quality people is far more important than just going out and "fighting" them.

Do I spar? Yeah, 4 times a week. 2 Traditional TSD medium contact (blood and bruises) and 2 days Full Muay Thai rules. But nothing I learned there I didnt see first in SD drills, aside from combinations, but many of those get used in our drills as well.


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## Buka (Jan 31, 2015)

Glass, blood, bikers, bruising - gee willikers, fellas, that's a mouthful. Sure is a long way from interacting with quality Martial Artists.


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## Drose427 (Jan 31, 2015)

Buka said:


> Glass, blood, bikers, bruising - gee willikers, fellas, that's a mouthful. Sure is a long way from interacting with quality Martial Artists.



yeah.....it escalated quickly...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 31, 2015)

*Back to the OP!* 

Learning from quality instructors, having peers of quality as you are coming up and in the future having quality students is all important for your martial practice.   Interacting with other people who have practiced for awhile who have exceptional skill sets will only help you develop in the long run. 

One of the absolute worse decisions you can make early on is training with poor teachers who produce mediocre at best students.  Unfortunately, when someone starts they usually are not in a position to know who is good and who is not.  So I would advise anyone to look closely and investigate before you start training!


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## Drose427 (Jan 31, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Back to the OP!*
> 
> Learning from quality instructors, having peers of quality as you are coming up and in the future having quality students is all important for your martial practice.   Interacting with other people who have practiced for awhile who have exceptional skill sets will only help you develop in the long run.
> 
> One of the absolute worse decisions you can make early on is training with poor teachers who produce mediocre at best students.  Unfortunately, when someone starts they usually are not in a position to know who is good and who is not.  So I would advise anyone to look closely and investigate before you start training!



This is why I always tell people, if a school or gym wont let you train anywhere else, run. You need to know the quality of your training and interact with people who can give you outside input! Sadly, we have a couple of gyms in my area that are like that. Ironically, one is a BJJ/MMA gym. Apparently the mindset is "we have Kickboxing and bjj, you dont need anything else"


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## Buka (Feb 1, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> This is why I always tell people, if a school or gym wont let you train anywhere else, run. You need to know the quality of your training and interact with people who can give you outside input! Sadly, we have a couple of gyms in my area that are like that. Ironically, one is a BJJ/MMA gym. Apparently the mindset is "we have Kickboxing and bjj, you dont need anything else"



I couldn't agree more. 
But as I sit here thinking about it, I haven't really known many Dojos that wouldn't let you explore supplemental training. I suppose if you were training in American-Do-Te....and went to another American-Do-Te school...Master Ken would ream you a new one. But, hey, he's Master Ken.

I used to have a list on the wall of quality Dojos in our area (my opinion of what a quality dojo was) with their address, phone numbers and class schedules) I always thought that if my students didn't at least check them out, they weren't approaching Martial Arts in a serious manner. 

Of course, some Dojos wouldn't let a student from another Dojo take a class. Which should tell you all you want to know about that particular Dojo.


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## drop bear (Feb 1, 2015)

Buka said:


> Glass, blood, bikers, bruising - gee willikers, fellas, that's a mouthful. Sure is a long way from interacting with quality Martial Artists.



Well ironically i don't think it strays all that far. A biker interacts with quality fighters and so has a self defence ability without relying on formal training.


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## drop bear (Feb 1, 2015)

Buka said:


> I couldn't agree more.
> But as I sit here thinking about it, I haven't really known many Dojos that wouldn't let you explore supplemental training. I suppose if you were training in American-Do-Te....and went to another American-Do-Te school...Master Ken would ream you a new one. But, hey, he's Master Ken.
> 
> I used to have a list on the wall of quality Dojos in our area (my opinion of what a quality dojo was) with their address, phone numbers and class schedules) I always thought that if my students didn't at least check them out, they weren't approaching Martial Arts in a serious manner.
> ...



Our area is really good for that. Nobody seems to mind who trains where.


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## Transk53 (Feb 1, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Well ironically i don't think it strays all that far. A biker interacts with quality fighters and so has a self defence ability without relying on formal training.



So you saying that a biker just being in the presence of a quality martial artist, interacts with a fighter, the said biker automatically gains a SD ability without formal training?


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## Transk53 (Feb 1, 2015)

I agree with the above regarding quality teachers and training. It is tremendously difficult to ascertain who is, or who is not, if a person lacks any in depth knowledge. Of course the only to get that is to join up and train. I think word of mouth overrides reputation to a certain degree as well. There is a local Kickboxing club near to me. Has great links to the community, has a small stable of amateur and pro's, but delve a little deeper, and the turn over of students is quite high. The reputation being marketed I guess, does not quite translate to the learning experience. Basically get them through the door on contracts.

Funny really, I find a lot of the amateur minded gyms a lot more fulfilling than what I believe you peeps call a McDojo. I know that there has to be structure to the particular art and how it is practiced, plus the tradition that has to be upheld. It's just that in my experience, one particular place I tried was very robotic. Any or all questions had to be asked at the end of the class. To me that is wrong and having to be corrected all the time, but without a little bit of time invested back to the student is not good either. Just my own personal opinion and not meant to dis anybody or art.


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## drop bear (Feb 1, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> So you saying that a biker just being in the presence of a quality martial artist, interacts with a fighter, the said biker automatically gains a SD ability without formal training?



Yeah all of his training consists of fighting people.


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## Transk53 (Feb 2, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Yeah all of his training consists of fighting people.



Ah. Well maybe not the best method, but I do understand that. I grew up with a kid that we nicknamed "scrapper" Probably a cliche or sorts, but he was like that. In fact half the time looking back on it, he'd probably start a fight with a lamppost.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 20, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Is possibly one of the more underrated concepts relating to martial arts advancement and personal advancement.
> 
> Find good fighters. Fight them. And be humbled by them. A constant quest to be the small fish in the big pond.
> 
> Which i accept is hard because it is much nicer to win all the time.



I agree. If you are winning all the time then you are not being challenged enough.


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## crazydiamond (Apr 20, 2016)

We spar in our class from time to time - with my class mates its fine as they are mostly all beginners (not all) but my instructor who has 23 years of some hard *** training and fighting (ring and street) then rotates in with us - and its a bit ...umm... of a shock.  He actually keeps his hands down sometimes and I can't tag him - but he gets in more than a few moderate taps (not pain but uncomfortable for sure) from out of nowhere.  There are lessons there sparing with someone so good - but at this point its just more of an emotional lesson for me - and that you never know who your going to face or how good they are going to be.


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## Buka (Apr 21, 2016)

crazydiamond said:


> We spar in our class from time to time - with my class mates its fine as they are mostly all beginners (not all) but my instructor who has 23 years of some hard *** training and fighting (ring and street) then rotates in with us - and its a bit ...umm... of a shock.  He actually keeps his hands down sometimes and I can't tag him - but he gets in more than a few moderate taps (not pain but uncomfortable for sure) from out of nowhere.  There are lessons there sparing with someone so good - but at this point its just more of an emotional lesson for me - and that you never know who your going to face or how good they are going to be.



Take full advantage of this. Spar him as much as you can and make copious notes afterwards. (when you get home) Then spar him some more. Look at him more tactically than emotionally.  You are in a good place, bro. Enjoy the hell out of it.


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## crazydiamond (Apr 22, 2016)

Ha - for me a big part of this is just dealing with getting hit - not smacked - but a modest bonk in the face is something to deal with emotionally. You can still kind of feel that later when your not used to it.  The instructor talks about this all the time - successful self defense involves an ability to take a shot and not loose your composure.

As for taking notes yes I am trying - but sometimes he is so fast and I get tapped and its a shock - what what happened - frak !  Can I go back to my fellow beginners and feel badass instead? !

I think this is how he was getting me last time with alot of overhand rights (I am bigger/taller).


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## Blindside (Apr 22, 2016)

crazydiamond said:


> Ha - for me a big part of this is just dealing with getting hit - not smacked - but a modest bonk in the face is something to deal with emotionally. You can still kind of feel that later when your not used to it.  The instructor talks about this all the time - successful self defense involves an ability to take a shot and not loose your composure.
> 
> As for taking notes yes I am trying - but sometimes he is so fast and I get tapped and its a shock - what what happened - frak !  Can I go back to my fellow beginners and feel badass instead? !
> 
> I think this is how he was getting me last time with alot of overhand rights (I am bigger/taller).



Will he let you video your sparring matches?  At my club we video all of the matches and I provide them to the students to go back and review what they did or didn't do well.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 22, 2016)

crazydiamond said:


>



I've sparred lots of guys who are heavier than I am, but it's unusual for me to have a sparring partner who matches my height and reach. It's hard to imagine working with someone who was a foot taller than I am.

Any 7'4" guys out there want to come by and spar? I think I would learn a lot from the experience.


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