# There thats better - Chen



## Xue Sheng (Aug 19, 2008)

Since leaving Yang style I have been training a few things one is Zhan Zhuang and the other is the Chen Taijiquan 18 form from Chen Zhenglei that I learned a few months back and Chen Chan Si Jin as well. But tonight I decided to start working on Laojia Yilu again, I learned it about 15 years ago but I stopped training it to focus on Yang style and I have always regretted letting it go. But after working on it for a while tonight I got about 1/6th of it back and you know it felt like I was home. This is the first truly traditional Taiji I have worked on since stopping Yang style and it felt great. 

I may just be a Chen stylist after all &#8230; who knew :idunno:

I then of course, being one that sometimes just has to take it one step over the edge, decided to take it a step further and see if I could apply any of my Yang training in combination with the Zhan Zhuang and Chen and see just how that Chen punch works that is in the first part of the 18 form. And I think I got it  &#8230;. but DAMN that hurt :erg:. I have been doing a lot of palm strike training on trees and walls but not much traditional punching. It looks like I am back to training punches too :EG: 

Over all it just felt great and I just wanted tell someone. :ultracool


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## marlon (Aug 19, 2008)

sounds great XS!  it is always good to be excited and passionate about something..and that home feeling...i know it and it is rarely matched or wrong.
enjoy

Marlon


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Aug 20, 2008)

I am not suprised it is a demanding form. But I think it mixs well with your Hsing yi. I was just watching the form and I can see Bagua type movements as well.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 27, 2008)

I am not saying anything against Yang style in what I am about to say, after training Yang style with the same sifu for 13 years I have great respect for Yang style and my Yang sifu (he is IMO one of the best and most highly skilled Taiji person and Yang style Taiji sifu on the planet) this is likely more a comment about me and what fits me than anything else.

I absolutely love Chen style and I was once lucky enough to talk with Chen Zhenglei about Yang vs. Chen and how I have done both and how I just can&#8217;t seem to get Chen style out of my system. His response was basically once you do Chen you are hooked and nothing else will do. He was not saying anything against other styles but about me needing to go back and pursue Chen. At that time I was learning his Chen 18 and doing Yang style and I did not listen to what he was trying to tell me and I stopped Chen and I returned to Yang but as it turns out he was absolutely right and now I am training Chen and loving it. The only problem I am having is my Yang sifu would like me to return to class and start training again and I really do not want to, but then I plan on going to talk to him about this soon. 

What I have noticed both the first time I trained Chen and this time is that I get the feeling of internal much quicker with Chen than Yang. What took me about 3 years to feel in Yang took me 1 year in Chen the first time and only a few months this time (but I am certain my Yang background has something to do with it this time) I am equally as certain there are some out there that have the absolute opposite experience. For some reason I understand the Chen forms and what they are trying to accomplish.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Aug 27, 2008)

> I get the feeling of internal much quicker with Chen than Yang. What took me about 3 years to feel in Yang took me 1 year in Chen the first time and only a few months this time


 Xue do you think this is because of the Silk reeling in Chen style?


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 27, 2008)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Xue do you think this is because of the Silk reeling in Chen style?


 
Actually now that you mention it, yes. I do think it helps, or at least it has this time around. But the first time I did Chen I trained mainly form and no Chan si Jin but then the forms obviously have silk reeling as part them and it is the movements of Chen have always felt best to me. This may be the silk reeling since I do rather like training it. 

I do feel Chan Si Jin that is the basis of Chen style movement and training of silk reeling trains movement comes from (or is directed by) the Dantian. But then this is only how I feel and I am a beginner at Chen so I could be wrong


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## Myrmidon (Aug 28, 2008)

*It's also the Zhan Zhuang... By the way... welcome back to Chen taijiquan!*


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 28, 2008)

Myrmidon said:


> *It's also the Zhan Zhuang... By the way... welcome back to Chen taijiquan!*


 
I agree I have got an awful lot out of the Zhan Zhuang training I have been doing, much more than the Santi Shi actually, which kind of has me thinking to be honest... maybe Wang Xingzhai was on to something. 

And thanks, I am currently wondering why I ever left Chen in the first place, other than having no sifu that is.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 31, 2008)

I need to clarify something that has ABSOLUTLY nothing to do with Chen Taijiquan and to be honest not much to do with this post either but I mentioned Santi Shi which is Xingyiquan,

I have been saying here about gaining more from Zhan Zhuang than Santi Shi. I am talking internal. I have a much better sense of the internal in Santi and for example Piquan than I did from just doing Santi Shi standing. However I do not believe that my piquan would be worth a damn if I ONLY used Zhan Zhuang as the base. TO me Santi is the all important structure and Zhan Zhuang is the power flow if you will.


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## marlon (Aug 31, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> I need to clarify something that has ABSOLUTLY nothing to do with Chen Taijiquan and to be honest not much to do with this post either but I mentioned Santi Shi which is Xingyiquan,
> 
> I have been saying here about gaining more from Zhan Zhuang than Santi Shi. I am talking internal. I have a much better sense of the internal in Santi and for example Piquan than I did from just doing Santi Shi standing. However I do not believe that my piquan would be worth a damn if I ONLY used Zhan Zhuang as the base. TO me Santi is the all important structure and Zhan Zhuang is the power flow if you will.


 
what is the difference, please?

Marlon


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2008)

I should say that you can gain understanding of the internal from Santi Shi; it is just that I am at such a low level (Mingjen) that I am gaining a better understanding of structure from it than the internal. And what I mean by structure here is more like the frame work of a house or a building. The wooden or steel skeleton kind of thing. So from Santi I am gaining the alignment of the skeleton and the strengthening of muscles, the bricks of a building if you will.

Zhan Zhuang, due to the postures makes it much easier for me to figure out and feel the internal more like the wiring or the hydraulics. I am finding it much easier (actually it appears to be coming naturally) how to get force and/or power from the root (foot) to the waist and how to direct it and stay relaxed. Also by what I think is the nature of Zhan Zhuang training things are learning how to, or naturally finding, balance and that is translating rather well into something like Piquan in application which is very much the same as Santi shi in structure


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Sep 1, 2008)

Xue I think one of the reason its hard to get the internal in Santi is that
 when you are first starting in it and doing it correctly it can be quite painful which makes it hard to get to the feeling of internal. I agree with the alignment it does put you with a great structure I wonder if that is because of the 70/30 foot placement.

I think Zhan Zhuang is easier to relax thus easier to feel the internal.

I think easy and difficult do not really justify describing Zhan Zhuang and Santi.

Me and my teacher were discussing the imporantance of relaxing and Fajing and Hsing yi cool stuff. At any rate The Silk reeling will help your Hsing yi as well as the Zhan Zhuang with your Santi.


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## marlon (Sep 1, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> I should say that you can gain understanding of the internal from Santi Shi; it is just that I am at such a low level (Mingjen) that I am gaining a better understanding of structure from it than the internal. And what I mean by structure here is more like the frame work of a house or a building. The wooden or steel skeleton kind of thing. So from Santi I am gaining the alignment of the skeleton and the strengthening of muscles, the bricks of a building if you will.
> 
> Zhan Zhuang, due to the postures makes it much easier for me to figure out and feel the internal more like the wiring or the hydraulics. I am finding it much easier (actually it appears to be coming naturally) how to get force and/or power from the root (foot) to the waist and how to direct it and stay relaxed. Also by what I think is the nature of Zhan Zhuang training things are learning how to, or naturally finding, balance and that is translating rather well into something like Piquan in application which is very much the same as Santi shi in structure


 

funny, i have always considered the standing practice as zhan zhuang and that there were different postures of zhan zhuang from wuji to the standing on a stake to others.  Thank you for clarifying.  I use different postures in my zhan zhuang practice starting with wuji then the 'like a tree' and others.  As i learned it structure and skeletal alignment was always a major factor and must essentially 'sit' the same as in standing on the stake for every posture.  there is a feel to it and a lightness and heaviness that is difficult to describe.  i now even focus on having the samew feel walking as i do in zhan zhuang.  This is how i was taught.  any corrections or clarifications are welcome
Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2008)

marlon said:


> funny, i have always considered the standing practice as zhan zhuang and that there were different postures of zhan zhuang from wuji to the standing on a stake to others. Thank you for clarifying. I use different postures in my zhan zhuang practice starting with wuji then the 'like a tree' and others. As i learned it structure and skeletal alignment was always a major factor and must essentially 'sit' the same as in standing on the stake for every posture. there is a feel to it and a lightness and heaviness that is difficult to describe. i now even focus on having the samew feel walking as i do in zhan zhuang. This is how i was taught. any corrections or clarifications are welcome
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
There are different postures in my Zhan Zhuang Training and the starting posture and the second to last posture is Wuji but all make it easier for me to understand the internal than Santi Shi.

I do not mean to imply that Zhan Zhuang is easier than Santi just that it is easier for me to focus on the internal training Zhan Zhuang than it is training Santi Shi and I believe JadecloudAlchemist hit the nail on the head, Santi is just more painful.

Also I only used the link to the one Zhan Zhuang posture not all of them, it was just easier to do. If you want all of them I have another post on standing that goes through them.

But with that said and in an attempt to get back to Chen when I was trained Chan Si Jin the Zhan Zhuang posture that trained was only this one as part of Chan Si Jin not the others. Note that is Chen Xiaowang in Zhan Zhuang

EDIT

One final thing you do get all of the alignments and feelings that you talk about from Zhan Zhuang but there is no alignment in the Zhan Zhuang that I train that is close to Santi Shi. And Santi Shi is the root of the root if you are training Xingyiquan. There are other postures in Xingyiquan training as well, Wuji, Zhan Zhuang, etc. but the higher level ones, like the root (Santi) tend to be painful when you start training them and you need to get through that, IMO, to get to the internal. And Xingyi training has 3 levels of this type of training for each posture (Xingyi is big on 3 by the way) And for me that is taking a lot longer than it has taken me with Zhan Zhuang


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2008)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Xue I think one of the reason its hard to get the internal in Santi is that
> when you are first starting in it and doing it correctly it can be quite painful which makes it hard to get to the feeling of internal. I agree with the alignment it does put you with a great structure I wonder if that is because of the 70/30 foot placement.
> 
> I think Zhan Zhuang is easier to relax thus easier to feel the internal.
> ...


 
I do believe I agree.

And I did not mean to make it sound like Zhan Zhuang is easier than Santi. What I was trying to say it that Zhan Zhuang is making it easier for me to understand the internal than Santi and it is very likely it is due to what you said, Santi can be painful and I have not yet experienced that type of pain in any of the Zhan Zhuang postures


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## marlon (Sep 2, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> There are different postures in my Zhan Zhuang Training and the starting posture and the second to last posture is Wuji but all make it easier for me to understand the internal than Santi Shi.
> 
> I do not mean to imply that Zhan Zhuang is easier than Santi just that it is easier for me to focus on the internal training Zhan Zhuang than it is training Santi Shi and I believe JadecloudAlchemist hit the nail on the head, Santi is just more painful.
> 
> ...


 

Informative and clear as always XS...many thanks.  I understand that getting past pain is important.

Marlon


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## Tai G (Nov 20, 2008)

I came from Yang to Chen as well and have to say it feels like home to me as well. I think partly it is because it is restructuring my body in ways it needed. My first Chen teacher also has done yang for 20 years and has been encouraged by his Chen teacher to try to keep up with it as well. He teaches mixed classes with some Chen students over here and some yang students over there. After relocating I've found myself very lucky to be studying with Shifu jose Figueroa, someone who knows the system inside and out. I'm sort of starting over from the ground up but find that it is giving me a better base to work from. Not to mention I just dig it! I don't care whether I'm doing zhan zhuang, chansigong or forms. It seems to be just what I need after sitting in class or studying TCM all day.
peace


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