# MIND Games



## Jenna (Jul 21, 2006)

*Q: What techniques work for you*?

Hello all you devious peeps skulking round in the shadows  ha!

Yes few among us would not understand Bruce talk of fighting without fighting in Enter.. and I think this can be accomplished in myriad ways but I would like to direct anyone taking the time to read this to non-physical mind games or the techniques for PSYCHING OUT an opponent. I am certain you all have your ways to go bout this on and off mats as I think the principles are the same, yes? But what techniques work for you??

Personally I do not go for direct eye contact cos I am no good at the crazywoman stare and anyway I see someone try to pull off the looking up from under furrowed brow thingy it just makes me laugh.. but one little tidbit I got from speaking afterwards to one of our tv sleight of hand men he suggested fixing the gaze NOT on the opponents eye but right on the bridge of their nose. Apparently it is supposed to be oppressive?? I do not know for certain if it works but I believe it does having had it apparently succeed for me with a verbally arrogant sort, ha! Anyway.. can you say please what psych-out techs have you tried that have worked for you? Thank you very much indeed 

And remember people.. be careful out there 
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## KenpoTex (Jul 21, 2006)

I'm about to leave but I'll answer real quick...

1.  Like you said, staring at the bridge of the nose, or forehead, or chin, or whatever.  When I've had people do this to me in training or wherever, it feels like they're staring right through you and can be somewhat disconcerting.

2.  Speaking slowly, calmly, and quietly--refusing to get excited.  This can give the impression that you are in total control of the situation and that you're not really impressed with their behavior.  Like Pres. Teddy Roosevelt said: "Speak softly and carry a big stick" (of course, having the big stick helps )

3.  A couple of times when I've dealt with someone who was being agressive, they said something that just cracked me up (I'll admit it, I got a weird sense of humor).  The point is though, like No. 2, this can mess with their head because instead of showing fear or escalating along with them, you're laughing at them.  You have to be careful with this one though because it may just tick them off more or they may feel like your 
disrespecting" them.

That's all I got for now...I'll check back later.


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## Jenna (Jul 21, 2006)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> I'm about to leave but I'll answer real quick...
> 
> 1. Like you said, staring at the bridge of the nose, or forehead, or chin, or whatever. When I've had people do this to me in training or wherever, it feels like they're staring right through you and can be somewhat disconcerting.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much my gunfighting friend  these are good very good.. I like clever ways to handle sorts and have always believed the most dangerous fighters are the ones who can spin up a tornado of thoughts in front of their opponent even before they utilise any physical weapons and you have given some nice little notions.. you are correct I think and the cleverest adversaries can be cocky and cheeky with their opponent without the opponent even knowing it.. that is subtle.. I like that a lot.. making the fool of the opponent without them even knowing.. ahh that is Ali style for real 

Thank you again 
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Kacey (Jul 21, 2006)

Kenpotex has a nice list... for tournament competition, I've always liked "so... are you wearing a cup?"


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 21, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> *Q: What techniques work for you*?
> 
> Hello all you devious peeps skulking round in the shadows  ha!
> 
> ...




Recently I use the following: "Hey becareful or you will knock me out and I will fall to the ground and roll around and break your ankle, and you will have to go to the hospital."   The Drunks move on as they think nothing is wrong. The semi sober to sober ones take their friends away as they realized that I told them were going to the hospital. 

In the past, I have told people in great detail what I had planned for them. Not being upset, just a nice calm voice. Think Buellor? Buellor? This works for those who are posturing. 

On one occasion a couple of years ago a friend and I were at a video arcade. Dressed from work. Some "locals" and teenage in maturity, kept screwing around and bumping the game we were playing. I asked them to stop. They laughed and stopped for a few minutes and started again. I told them to stop. Their friends just kept getting more and more. So, when one actually touched me while playing the sit down driving game, I stood up and asked him if he had insurance? Stunned looks. I aksed him again, if he had insurance? I then told him I had full medical and dental, and even though all his friends might put me there, he and the other one that started this all was going as well. All said nice and calm. They all backed up. They left. 

Some people came over and told me they saw the whole thing and it made them laugh. 


Outside of one place these two guys were standing and I asked them to go inside or move along. The smaller of the two, said you have no idea who he is and what he can do? I smiled, and those that know me, know that when I work and there is not a pretty woman involved, if I smile there is a problem that I will enjoy. I asked who is he and what can he do? (* One never knows, I did bounce out a top ten band one evening not knowing who they were.  If I had known I might not have been so nice.  *) The smaller one starts telling me all about his friend. How he is 3rd degree TKD black belt and he just took first in state for sparring, and ..., you get the idea. When he was done, I smiled again and put my arm around the guy, (* the larger of the two was still smaller than I by multiple weight classes *) and said, I now know what techniques you know, and what type of fighting you do, and how you prefer to fight. You know nothing about me, and even though I knew all this I still walked over to you and put my arm around you.  So I will ask one last time before I get upset, you must leave. They started to leave and I stopped them and gave the one guy some advise. I told him there were people out there that would just have hurt him, to prove a point, so do not let your friend get you into trouble like that.


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## SFC JeffJ (Jul 21, 2006)

Back about a year ago, a man was stopped in front of me when the light turned green.  Now I'm not one of those who'll honk automatically when the car in front of me doesn't move, let alone someone who honks as soon as the light changes.  But after a bit, I did honk since he wasn't moving anywhere.  The driver, who surprisingly was taller and bigger than me got out of the car and started walking back towards me looking very aggressive.  I just got out of the car as well, (which was probably a mistake) with my 4D maglite in hand.  As soon as he saw that, he just started back to his car and left.  Sometimes the threat of escalation can defuse a situation.  But, as always, sometimes it'll just make matters worse.

JeffJ


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## mantis (Jul 21, 2006)

yes, definitely use the TIGER STARE to freak out your oponent
an example:


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## Jenna (Jul 21, 2006)

To *Rich* and *JeffJ*.. are you guys saying that your threats are potentially enough to de-escalate situations? Personally.. and for obvious reasons.. that would not work for someone like me.. I wonder is there an equivalent in these tactics for someone who is perhaps not physically imposing? Or do you think it does not matter as long as the tactical "threats" are sincere? I am not certain how that translates into a workable for the 100lber for example???

Thank you both 
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Jenna (Jul 21, 2006)

mantis said:
			
		

> yes, definitely use the TIGER STARE to freak out your oponent
> an example:


Hey N my friend  where u been.. well now if you made eyes like that at me.. I would not be freaked. I would give you a little pat on the head 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 21, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> To *Rich* and *JeffJ*.. are you guys saying that your threats are potentially enough to de-escalate situations? Personally.. and for obvious reasons.. that would not work for someone like me.. I wonder is there an equivalent in these tactics for someone who is perhaps not physically imposing? Or do you think it does not matter as long as the tactical "threats" are sincere? I am not certain how that translates into a workable for the 100lber for example???
> 
> Thank you both
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna




Well if a woman was around 100 lbs = 7.142 857 143 stone and she told me in a very calm voice she was going to kick me in the shin as she climbed up my body by stepping on my knee to reach her thumb into the soft spot around the collar bone and the other hand sticking her hand covered in oil and other fluids into my eye ball, would make me hesitate. 

Now I agree that some people will take that as a challenge and will proceed to threaten or attack. It is at that time you change your plan from what you stated to something else that would cause as much pain as possible. But in some cases it would work. 

A small frame person male or female is not going to have the same fear factor that a 6'3"  280 lbs male would have.


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## MRE (Jul 21, 2006)

I am not an intimidating person, so I guess I never worked on psyching my opponent out.  I really don't have anything that I do that comes to mind.  However, I did read on another thread about the guy who went #2 in his pants, scooped it out with his hands, and threatened to throw it at everyone.  That sounds like it would psyche some people out, maybe I will try that one.

Have fun!


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## mantis (Jul 22, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey N my friend  where u been.. well now if you made eyes like that at me.. I would not be freaked. I would give you a little pat on the head
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


hey as long as it works!


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## Adept (Jul 22, 2006)

I'll often use threats to get my way when I'm working ("Pull your head in, or I'll rip out your eyes and **** the bleeding sockets!" for example). Sometimes you genuinely intimidate the patron in question, sometimes (if you add a smile, or have a raport with the patron in question) it comes across as a funny way of being told off. Most of the times it achieves the desired result.

But I only do that when I'm trying to get someone to do something. If I'm trying to de-escalate a potential fight, I find threats simply escalate the situation. It's important to give the person in question the chance to back down with their honour intact, or else they think they have to fight to save face. I find being open and friendly with people, taking them away from their friends, shaking them by the hand and letting them know that I can sympathize with them will usually de-escalate a situation.


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## stickarts (Jul 22, 2006)

great posts!
I think the best psyche out is just by being great at what you do!
I think when you are highly skilled and confident this comes through in how you move and carry yourself.


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## KenpoTex (Jul 22, 2006)

stickarts said:
			
		

> great posts!
> I think the best psyche out is just by being great at what you do!
> *I think when you are highly skilled and confident this comes through in how you move and carry yourself.*


This ties in with another thought I had since my first post (some of you touched on it), and this applies no matter what size you are. I feel that for this "psychological warfare" to be effective, you have to be believable. If you can make the other person genuinely believe that you are willing to do whatever it takes to put him/her down you will generally avoid the fight. Most people that are just looking for trouble are not going to be willing to pay the high price that is going to be exacted when they have to deal with someone who is willing to go the distance (by the way Rich, I loved the "do you have insurance" line...priceless ). 

While thinking about this thread last night after I posted, I remembered a few of the confrontations in which I've been involved. For example, while on a call to a loud party I was challeged by a 3 [very drunk and very big] guys, one of whom said that they were going to kick my butt, I just looked at him (the one doing the talking) calmly and told him that if any of them even moved I was going to _kill_ him...end of story (they backed down). I honestly feel that if I hadn't been able to convince them that I was willing to rock'n'roll, I would have been forced into a fight. The situation had already degenerated to the point where I had covertly drawn my OC spray (in my left hand) and my other hand was convienently near the butt of my handgun...thankfully the situation did not progress any further.


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## still learning (Jul 22, 2006)

Hello, Make a BIG smile...most times it will "eas"  the situtions.  Also with a big smile...the other person will not know you are ready for anything!

Hopefully they will relax and cool off...but under your BIG smile is a Tiger in waiting! 

Lots of times in accidental bumbing...Smiling helps with diffuseing a serious sitution!   If you have NOT try this....try SMILING ALOT!!


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 28, 2006)

A few ways to mess with people in a real fight (not so effective in sparring) is to kiai as loud as you possibly can when ever you block/attack and when they show you you have no choice but to fight. I did that once and the guy thought I was possessed by the devil and backed off. 
Anouther is if there trying to gaot you into a fight, look at them competely straight faced, no emotion at all, and go "I get it! You love me! But can you stop flitring with me!" that is more effective if the person you say it to wouldn't possibly want to, well...yah. 
I have some others, but I keep them as secret weapons. And it cann't really be secert if I tell them to you. Sorry folks.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 28, 2006)

Kacey said:
			
		

> Kenpotex has a nice list... for tournament competition, I've always liked "so... are you wearing a cup?"


 
:rofl: :roflmao:


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## Gemini (Jul 28, 2006)

Different things have worked at different times. Normally, body language more than anything is enough. If you walk directly towards someone heckling you with purpose and your shoulders squared, the weak of will generally find it intimitading. Problem? ...no...and just walk away. Maybe it was visible that if there was, I would sincerely be more than happy to address it. I dunno.

In a situation as mentioned about bumping into someone, by just stopping and giving a quick apology and holding eye contact for a response is generally regarded as sincerity in the apology and after a moment size up has never netted more than a "s'oright. This has happened on more than one occasion with always the same results. Just as giving a quick "sorry" and keep on walking without a response can and is often regarded as dismissive and a good way to escalate a totally unecessary situation.

When you say "from a 100 lb'r" pov, I'll assume you're referring to yourself, so I'll look at it as myself against say a 250 lb'r making size an equalling factor. Or the other direction which is me being the larger, what has worked against me is the same thing. You don't have to portray yourself as crazy, but if you convince me you're all business (with a look or words), I'm more likely not to pursue a confrontation. But I truly believe if you mean what you say, the message gets conveyed. I think in most cases, confidence to back up what you say, comes through as does my immediate and intense dislike for anyone who tries to intimidate another. 

One thing I do want to mention that you said about looking under the eye brows. I would be careful of that because though no, a crazy look does not work for me either, I've been told I have an unusually "intense" gaze that can be a bit unnerving if you're not used to me, I guess. But if I'm looking at you under my eye brows, we DO have a problem. 

But this is just me. Your mileage may vary...


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## Explorer (Jul 29, 2006)

We were teaching a class at a community center and a couple of local kids kept interrupting the class, shouting things and generally acting like jerks.  It scared some of the lower, younger belts and I needed to do something, so I invited them to train with us.  The bigger kid (about 6' 160lbs) says to me ... "Naw, you guys fight with pads on.  I'm a real fighter."  <right>  So I smile stand up straight grab his hand, shake it and say ... "That's great.  I prefer bare knuckles sparring anyway."  He says ... "No, I mean you'll try to kick me and sh**.  So I tell him (smiling even more) ... "No problem, I'm happy to box bare knuckles too.  My dad was a Golden Gloves fighter and he taught me boxing."  Finally, the kid looks over at his friend, who's been egging him on and says ..."I don't really want to fight."  And I say (smiling the whole time) ... "OK.  Mayabe some other time.  But for now you either have to observe quietly or leave."  He mumbles ... "No thanks."  and they leave.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 29, 2006)

> Personally I do not go for direct eye contact cos I am no good at the crazywoman stare and anyway I see someone try to pull off the looking up from under furrowed brow thingy it just makes me


 
going a little off topic maybe but  their are some people in the world that when they look at you and you see their eyes you know they are seeing a dead person in front of them and just waiting for the momnt to make it come true



> So I tell him (smiling even more) ... "No problem, I'm happy to box bare knuckles too.


  yep that works a lot of the time



> *I think when you are highly skilled and confident this comes through in how you move and carry yourself.*


 
I think this is one of the biggest things that can be accomplished in the arts


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## lll000000lll (Aug 7, 2006)

i think my only real "mind-game" is my confidence. aside from feints. 

when i have been involved in street fights i hold my composure pretty well, i try to utilize my adrenaline to stay focused. but it isnt always that easy when ppl are swinging at you.


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## Jenna (Aug 7, 2006)

Hey guys  thank yous all for this I am sorry I missed them to reply.. and but there is a common thread I think that the sort of trickery or mind games you guys use are sort of THREATS of violence.. and that is my problem that I am not particularly threatening if I am being honsest I think and if I were to say some of the stuff you guys posted here that you have said at the onset of a potential altercation well no matter how convincing I made it.. I still think I would draw someone down rather than getting them to back off if you follow?? How best to get them to back off without advising them if they come closer you will cut off their head reach in and pull everything out.. how to do that without doing that??

Anyways dunno if anyone reads these threads after they go cold but if anyone pops in I am grateful to each and every one of yous all who posted your thoughts I have read each of them carefully.. you guys are a right bunch of toughnuts I will say!! hey anyone wanna job as a bodyguard, ha! good rates an all 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Flatlander (Aug 7, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Well if a woman was around 100 lbs = 7.142 857 143 stone and


:rofl: Dude, you're such a geek. :rofl:





> and she told me in a very calm voice she was going to kick me in the shin as she climbed up my body by stepping on my knee to reach her thumb into the soft spot around the collar bone and the other hand sticking her hand covered in oil and other fluids into my eye ball, would make me hesitate.


Note: you won't be believable unless you know that you can actually do this.  Rich, I imagine, can quite seriously back up the subtle, yet aggressive, comments that he makes.  And his credibility is very likely backed up by the visual intimidation factor.  So, be sure about what you're threatening, if you're threatening.  I would never recommend "writing cheques your body can't cash".  The possibility of simply escalating a situation that you cannot handle is far too great.

With that said, the question was about "psyching out" one's opponent.  Presumably, this presupposes that the altercation is indeed going to happen.  If we're assuming that, then I suppose that "writing cheques your body can't cash" is a viable option if it gives you some time.  Personally, I think that your biggest liability in this circumstance is time.  Time because we have assumed here that the altercation is happening.  Maybe right now.

So, the attack on preparation, in this circumstace, warrants consideration.  Many will say that to throw the first attack is a bad idea, inadvisable and potentially criminal.  Perhaps....

However, I don't think that one's personal safety ought necessarily exist as a right within the context of one's compliance with the law only.  I think that there may be times when a person can only have a reasonable hope of surviving an altercation by utilizing the attack on preparation.

The attack on preparation is, essentially, the recognition of the inevitability of the attack, followed immediately by attacking first.  Usually, recognition of the attack's inevitability is verified by some type of physical cue.  There are, quite obviously, a miriad of various types of attack that can be utilized at this juncture.  Not much point in going in to those here, as this was originally about the "mental" aspect - a psychological attack on preparation, if you will.  In that regard, there are a few different strategies that one can employ.  However, each must be considered as being followed up by some type of phyisical attack, preferrably, something that will help you close the gap.

- Act crazy.  I don't care how, just lose your grip.
- Scream obsenities
- Bark
- Feint
- Feint again
- If you're agile, use it, depending upon your environment.  Roll, cartwheel, leap somewhere tactically advantageous.
- Look for environmental weapons, and get them in your hands ASAP.  As said upthread, sometimes the threat of using a weapon is enough.  Also, know what to do with said environmental weapon.  Risk: said weapon is removed from your control, and used to kill you.
- Throw loose pocketstuffs at your attacker's eyes.
- Spit into attacker's face.
- Pretend you have a gun?  I don't know if this is a good idea or not.  If coupled with acting crazy, it may work.  I don't know.....
- As always, just run if you can.


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## King (Aug 8, 2006)

Oh how I love telling this story. One of my old friends lived in a bad part of town. One weekend when he was climbing the stairs to his apartment and a guy lurking around in the stairwell stopped him. Then this dude took out a double barrel shot gun and pointed it at him. My friend said, "how much for the gun?" The guy looks at him and replies "two fifty." My friend smiles and says "aww man, that's too rich for me." The stranger shrugs and walks away. 

I was like holy **** when he told me that story. I told him I would have soiled my pants if that was my case. I say confidence plays a big issue deterring and diffusing scary situations. 

Using that as an example I make eye contact with agressive looking people. Then I'd nod/smile and make a comment about the day before I go. They usually look surprised and greet back.


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