# Jinto/ Chinto



## agemechanic03 (Feb 25, 2008)

Well, this morning in class, my Sa Bum Nim started teaching me Jinto/ Chinto ( I did that b/c everyone has there own way of spelling it). So I do not much about it, but I am about to do some thread hopping to gather some info, so if you want to add anything to this thread, PLEASE feel free to do so. Other than that, I just wanted to let you guys know that I am on this form and to also get some discussions and applications of techniques going on.

Tang Soo!!


Chris


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## MBuzzy (Feb 25, 2008)

Wow - you beat me to it.  I was getting ready to post a thread on this hyung today also.  That is weird.  I recently learned it and am ready to start looking into bunkai.  In my opinion, this is a VERY hard form to decode and figure out applications for.  There are a lot of fairly convoluded movements.  

The most difficult movements in my opinion are the one legged stances (crane stance).  I just have a hard time thinking of a good use for these....

If anyone has any background on the history and creation of this form, that would be greatly appreciated also.


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## agemechanic03 (Feb 25, 2008)

Well, I haven't made it that far yet as he has only shown me to the point where you step back into a long front stance with a low defense x-block then step back forward to a horstance right before you start twisting with your fists on your waste. I know in Sip Soo, I do not have a problem with the crane stances, but this one of course is a little bit different, so we'll see. I'm curious about the history and bunkai to, I haven't found much on here yet.


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## MBuzzy (Feb 25, 2008)

BEWARE THE MIND OF CHOE!!  I learned a lot of forms, then he realized that he mixed a few up.  

That section is familiar, so I think you're good!


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## agemechanic03 (Feb 25, 2008)

I watched an OLD Shotakan version of it a little bit ago and it looked identical to what I know if it so far, the only differences was shorter stances on some and that he is good at it and I am just a beginner


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## JWLuiza (Feb 25, 2008)

Do you guys do Chinto/Jinto/Jindo with side kicks or front kicks?


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## agemechanic03 (Feb 25, 2008)

I'm not sure as of yet, as I have only learned half of the form today. The only kick I have done so far is the jump front kick at the beginning.


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## Yossarian (Feb 26, 2008)

Ive been practising this form for nearly three years now and im still not happy with it(still wobble sometimes on one legged bits). I completely messed it up at the British champs last year lol. I haven't really learned much in the way of applications yet as im still working on the lower forms but I did notice Iain Abernethy has a DVD on it. 

I believe the form is named after a Chinese man who taught the techniques to the Okinawans. At what level do you learn this form? for our org its second dan.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 26, 2008)

Here is a thread that may be of interest...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37377


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## agemechanic03 (Feb 28, 2008)

Well, I have only learned a few more steps in this form this week, but I did get my book back from a guy that has this form in it. "The Ultimate Guide to Tang Soo Do- GM Kang Uk Lee. Here is the description that he has posted in his book on the Hyung.... "Jin Do Hyung was originally known as Jin Dwe and was developed in the Ha Nam Region of China about 300 years ago. The originator is uknown. It belongs to the So Lim school of martial arts, and consists of many technically demanding and rapid movements. Jin Do Hyung  symbolizes the Crane."

Thoughts anybody? I agree with the symbolization of the crane, especially with all of the Sang Soo Sang Dan/ Ha Dan Mahk Kee's throughout the hyung. So far out of the 18 hyungs that I know, this is deffinately one of my favorites. I am really excited to finish this form soon so I can look into bunkai more on it. 




Tang Soo!

Chris


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## JWLuiza (Feb 28, 2008)

agemechanic03 said:


> Well, I have only learned a few more steps in this form this week, but I did get my book back from a guy that has this form in it. "The Ultimate Guide to Tang Soo Do- GM Kang Uk Lee. Here is the description that he has posted in his book on the Hyung.... "Jin Do Hyung was originally known as Jin Dwe and was developed in the Ha Nam Region of China about 300 years ago. The originator is uknown. It belongs to the So Lim school of martial arts, and consists of many technically demanding and rapid movements. Jin Do Hyung symbolizes the Crane."
> 
> Thoughts anybody? I agree with the symbolization of the crane, especially with all of the Sang Soo Sang Dan/ Ha Dan Mahk Kee's throughout the hyung. So far out of the 18 hyungs that I know, this is deffinately one of my favorites. I am really excited to finish this form soon so I can look into bunkai more on it.
> 
> ...


 
Why is it that the Koreans always say we don't know who created a form when it came from okinawa?!? 

If you look at some Okinawan performances, they perform the kata at a 45 degree angle. The book "Shotokan's Secret" also has some interesting ideas on the form.

There is a tournament soon in VA where they actually have a "Chinto" division. Everyone does Chinto. No other forms. How cool is that?

Link to Tournament


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## agemechanic03 (Feb 29, 2008)

The reason behind that JW is that they are still sour towards Japan b/c of their occupation back in the day. As for the angles, it is done many different ways from what I have seen on here and on YouTube. I, for instance, go straight up and down. I've even seen some karate versions on youtube that go straight up and down as well as at a 45dg angle. Honestly, I don't feel their is an importance as to what the angle is as long as the techs are executed properly. Your opponent is more than likely going to be moving a around you anyways. But you have to remember that when we do our hyungs/ kata, each style/ branch/ federation, has there own little "tweak" to the form. I'm here in Korea and occasionally go to another base and train with my masters master and there are a LOT of differences between the two.

That would be very interesting to watch. To see all the different variations live in one sitting. That would be very cool!


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## JT_the_Ninja (Feb 29, 2008)

I echo the thread Upnorthkyosa linked. Pretty much all I'd say I've said there. Just note that for whatever reason, the ITF calls the form jinte, which is actually also the name of a completely different form for some styles....it used to be called jinto, but then they changed the name. Whatever. I'll reiterate Saussure: the sign is arbitrary; it's the meaning that counts. 

Anyway, keep at it; it's a tough form (balance balance balance!), but it's rewarding.

Small hint, when you do get to the crane (one-legged) stances: keep your support leg bent, just as you would for pyung ahn sa dan, before the side kicks, and hook your other foot behind your support knee. That locks you in place, giving you more stability. The bend also distributes your weight more evenly over your support foot, making you more balanced.

Anyway, Tang Soo!


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## punisher73 (Feb 29, 2008)

If you can find a used copy (I think the book is out of print now).  Javiar Martinez has a book on Isshin-ryu's version of Chinto kata.  Here is a link to it on amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Isshinryu-Chi...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204292788&sr=1-1

He attempts to go back and "reverse engineer" the techniques using the old Chinese Kung Fu forms and Chin Na that have similiar techniques and shows the grappling/locking bunkai for the moves.  It also has a section on the history of the kata and also the strategy of it.

Some do the kata on a straight line while others do it on a 45 angle.  I believe he addresses that on the 45 angle you are stacking opponents as you throw them and clearing space around you.  Interesting ideas.

Someone mentioned "Shotokan's Secrets" and that has an interesting idea of how/why the kata may have been modified from earlier versions.  It talks about using it on a stairwell for attackers and why it is on a line.


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## rmclain (Feb 29, 2008)

Chinto is also known as "Ahm Hak" in Korea.

R. McLain


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## McZ (Mar 1, 2008)

Jindo name in japanese is Gankaku it means "Crane on the rock"

Very interesting hyung :wink2: in our federation is required for 2 dan, it has some bit difficult movements for me (exp. last one leg position with 180 degrees turn). Personally rohai is my favourite traditional hyung already but i was doing jindo in Moo Duk Kwan Tournament last year.


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## MBuzzy (Mar 2, 2008)

rmclain said:


> Chinto is also known as "Ahm Hak" in Korea.
> 
> R. McLain


 
I've never heard this....is it a translation?  Do you know where that came from?


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## e ship yuk (Mar 2, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> I've never heard this....is it a translation?  Do you know where that came from?



It sounds like the Korean pronunciation of the characters for Gankaku, to me.  Many of the Shotokan forms were given "new" names when they were taught in Korea: Tekki became Chulgi, Heian became Pyong-an, Bassai became Pal-sek, etc.  These names were essentially just Korean pronunciation of the Chinese characters for these form names.

Gankaku, as MBuzzy said, is generally translated "Crane on a rock," which makes some sense given the prevalance of the stance in the form.  The Korean word for "rock" is pronounced "ahm", and the word for crane is pronounced "hak."


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## MBuzzy (Mar 2, 2008)

Makes sense to me!  I suppose it is like Bassia - as you mentioned, the Korean pronunciation is sometimes Pal-sek....Although many Koreans still call it Bassai.  Jinto is possibly the same thing.  Most of the Koreans that I met as well as most of the TSD/SBD schools still call it Jinto


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## e ship yuk (Mar 2, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> Makes sense to me!  I suppose it is like Bassia - as you mentioned, the Korean pronunciation is sometimes Pal-sek....Although many Koreans still call it Bassai.  Jinto is possibly the same thing.  Most of the Koreans that I met as well as most of the TSD/SBD schools still call it Jinto



TSD tends to use the Okinawan names for forms, or variations thereof; this may harken to GM Hwang learning the form names from Funakoshi's _Karate-jutsu_ textbook, written before he changed the names.  Older styles of TKD that still use the Okinawan/Japanese forms tend to use the Koreanized version of the name.  

The group that I train with started as one of those TKD groups, but we've slowly transitioned to TSD over the past few years.


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## McZ (Mar 3, 2008)

Gankaku is a japanese name of this form, orginal okinawan name was CHINTO


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## JT_the_Ninja (Mar 3, 2008)

Interesting thing happened in class tonight...

apparently, CJN Kim wants us to change the first stance in the form (the high X-block) from sa go rip jaseh to hugul jaseh. Apparently, at some time in the past, before I learned the form, it was hugul jaseh, and then they changed it to sa go rip jaseh to emphasize the foot stomp. Well, now it's back to hugul jaseh.

What is it for all yinz?


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## e ship yuk (Mar 3, 2008)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> What is it for all yinz?




Back stance.


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## MBuzzy (Mar 3, 2008)

Sa ko rip jaseh for us....which foot stomp are you referring to?


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## JWLuiza (Mar 3, 2008)

The ITF foot stomp   JT, tell me if I am wrong, but it seems there is a focus on foot positioning and stepping in many ITF forms...

In my school it is Fugal jaseh.


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## Yossarian (Mar 4, 2008)

Uncle Jesse at my school too.


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## McZ (Mar 4, 2008)

first position in my org is hu gul.


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## agemechanic03 (Mar 4, 2008)

Well the other day I finished learning all the moves to the hyung. WOW! Doing all those turns and stuff on foot is a bit hard. I still really enjoy it tho, I love challenges. And we do the So ko rip jaseh at the beginning.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Mar 4, 2008)

JWLuiza said:


> The ITF foot stomp   JT, tell me if I am wrong, but it seems there is a focus on foot positioning and stepping in many ITF forms...
> 
> In my school it is Fugal jaseh.



Hah. Yeah, we love foot stomps. Wherever we can put them, we'll make them at least optional.

And yeah, there's a lot of focus on foot position. Your feet are your base, after all. A lot of ho sin sul only works right if you have a good stance. A lot of everything only works if you have a good stance. A big focus of training is making sure you know what you're doing, how you're doing it, and making every move intentional at some level (muscle memory helps a lot with the attention load).


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