# Kenpo Technique



## Fastmover (Aug 5, 2003)

Id like to take a survey out there regarding Kenpo techniques.

How many out there has ever completed an ENTIRE Kenpo
technique in a real street fight?


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 5, 2003)

If you use a post fight equation formula, I've done it every time


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## Ender (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Id like to take a survey out there regarding Kenpo techniques.
> 
> How many out there has ever completed an ENTIRE Kenpo
> technique in a real street fight? *



well that depends on if you mean the lower belt technique or the BB extension...


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## Brother John (Aug 5, 2003)

One of my students used to be a prison guard and was attacked by an inmate, he got off the first four moves of Five Swords before the guy crumpled like mush.

According to his coworker who was standing right there, it was nasty.
 

Your Bro.
John


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## tarabos (Aug 5, 2003)

my training partner pulled off grip of death to completion on some poor schmuck...


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## Doc (Aug 6, 2003)

I have.


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## satans.barber (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *I have. *



Any in particular Mr. Chapél?

Ian.


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## Doc (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *Any in particular Mr. Chapél?
> 
> Ian. *


"Hugging Defiance" Level three.


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *"Hugging Defiance" Level three. *



Gosh Dr. Chapel. I would have thought with your experience and teaching law enforcement it would have been much higher. That's rather interesting. Was this the only one that had worked for you or is this the age old statement of what can go wrong will always go wrong?:asian:


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## Doc (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Gosh Dr. Chapel. I would have thought with your experience and teaching law enforcement it would have been much higher. That's rather interesting. Was this the only one that had worked for you or is this the age old statement of what can go wrong will always go wrong?:asian: *


And what do you know of Hugging Defiance Level Three?


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## Seig (Aug 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *And what do you know of Hugging Defiance Level Three? *


I know nothing of it, would you please enlighten us?


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## Doc (Aug 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Gosh Dr. Chapel. I would have thought with your experience and teaching law enforcement it would have been much higher. That's rather interesting. Was this the only one that had worked for you or is this the age old statement of what can go wrong will always go wrong?:asian: *


What do you mean? You want to know how many worked? You're kidding right? I can't even separate all the IKC's I ran from each other.


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## jeffkyle (Aug 7, 2003)

I basically did this on a guy once in a fight.  He didn't get a front bear hug though...it was more of him just grabbing my shirt with both hands.  I took him down like in Tripping Arrow and when he went down, i simply punched him.  It wasn't the complete technique (probably because I didn't hold on to the arm like I was supposed to, LOL), but it did the trick.  He didn't get back up!   :asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *What do you mean? *



I was thinking that after your "x" number of years in the martial arts and your law enforcement training that you would have had time to evaluate and adjust techniques to work for the situation. 



> You want to know how many worked?



Not exactly in exact numbers or anything but more like you had delayed sword and etc. or etc.



> You're kidding right?



I didn't mean anything derogitory by it.:asian: 



> I can't even separate all the IKC's I ran from each other.



I was thinking more of real life situations.


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## Doc (Aug 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I was thinking that after your "x" number of years in the martial arts and your law enforcement training that you would have had time to evaluate and adjust techniques to work for the situation. *


*

Well all the techniques I teach work as is with no adjustment. I mean, arn't they suppose to? And if you have to make adjustments in your techniques for "real life" why are you teaching them the way you do, right?

"What you do is what you are going to do. If what you're doing is not what you're going to do, than what are you doing?" - Ed Parker



			I didn't mean anything derogitory by it.
		
Click to expand...

I know that, I was just confused. Give an old man a break dude. It takes awhile for the juices to flow you know.





			I was thinking more of real life situations.
		
Click to expand...

*Oh, so now you've figured out SL-4. Reality based, no adjustments necessary, some assembly may be required, batteries not included. :asian:

If you want techniques to work for real consistently, than you must be taught body mechanics that are real and can be proven consistently day after day under realistic training conditions. Otherwise what you do will fail, sooner or later.


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## howardr (Aug 7, 2003)

> "What you do is what you are going to do. If what you're doing is not what you're going to do, than what are you doing?" - Ed Parker



Great quote! That sums it up perfectly.


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Well all the techniques I teach work as is with no adjustment. I mean, arn't they suppose to? *



Yes, I'm sure you are quite right. It's really kind of different that we kenpoist have many opinions about the same thing. I've always heard about tailoring, change ups, and I guess the rest can be summed by the formulation phase. 



> And if you have to make adjustments in your techniques for "real life" why are you teaching them the way you do, right?



As for your statement here; I would so much like to get in the same room as yourself and see what your SL-4 stuff is all about.  Every single one of us on here could talk about the "what-if" all day and all night so again I would like to understand your teachings of proper body mechanics and such.:asian: 



> I know that, I was just confused. Give an old man a break dude. It takes awhile for the juices to flow you know.



:rofl: Stop it!!:rofl: 



> Oh, so now you've figured out SL-4. Reality based, no adjustments necessary, some assembly may be required, batteries not included.



I'm not so sure about that. For myself I'm lucky I can get my own stuff figured out.



> If you want techniques to work for real consistently, than you must be taught body mechanics that are real and can be proven consistently day after day under realistic training conditions. Otherwise what you do will fail, sooner or later.



As before I'd like to see your theories on the mechanics. Maybe my initial question would probably have been more effective as a conversation with knowing feelings rather than just seeing a plain old text written here. This most likely would have been less confusing.


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## Doc (Aug 9, 2003)

> As for your statement here; I would so much like to get in the same room as yourself and see what your SL-4 stuff is all about.  Every single one of us on here could talk about the "what-if" all day and all night so again I would like to understand your teachings of proper body mechanics and such


Man that would be cool. Much fun.


> As before I'd like to see your theories on the mechanics. Maybe my initial question would probably have been more effective as a conversation with knowing feelings rather than just seeing a plain old text written here. This most likely would have been less confusing.


Yeah, this medium does have some significant shortcomings when speaking about physical things. But one day, God willing and the creek don't rise, we'll do it.


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## parkerkarate (Feb 10, 2004)

Come on man. You and I both know that you will never get through a whole technique, take Circling Fans for example, for me a Green Belt technique. What in the world makes you think that A guy will just stand there and let you hit them a few times. Then stand there while you back up some, measure him up again and then come back and blow him away with a kick. I am sorry for being mean but thats just something you need to think about. You will never get through many of these techniques.


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 10, 2004)

Uh..."better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it?"

There are some other considerations too, such as teaching vocabulary, grafting/spontaneity, etc., that come into play in the complexity of kenpo techniques.

Could I ask what axe you're grinding?


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## parkerkarate (Feb 10, 2004)

I agree with you totally there is also vocabulary and other things to make techniques. 

But I do not understand you last question.


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 10, 2004)

Well, beyond the "come on, man," which I guess is none of my beeswax, usually when people write about "technique completion," the way you have, they go on to argue that a) it's silly to have all the techs, b) it's especially silly to have the extensions to the base techniques...

So, is that what it is?


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## parkerkarate (Feb 10, 2004)

ok I am not trying to be mean, the come on man just popped up because I had to start it some how. I did not mean to come out being offensive so I am sorry about that. I do belive that we do not need the extensions but just as alot of the more advance belts, it all about completions. What I just got caught up on I reading that you wanted to know if we could ever get through a whole techniques. So I am sorry about that.


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## 8253 (Feb 10, 2004)

To my knowledge, kenpo techniques are not supposed to be completed in a street fight, they are just guidelines as to what could be done in a multitude of situations.  No one on the street is going to react in the same way that they do when you are training.


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## RCastillo (Feb 10, 2004)

Do anything. They just saw my "Tracy" patch and left me alone!


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## Nick Ellerton (Feb 11, 2004)

I cannot say that i have ever like seriously used a kenpo technique on someone but i can safely say that i have definately used parts of a kenpo technique on someone. Just messing around with friends the fulcrum of grip of death worx wonders 

cool icon!!!:wink: :2xbird: <--- this i just like


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## Les (Feb 11, 2004)

Several years back, one of my students got involved is some trouble in a bar. He had had a few beers with friends when some 'hard men' took exception to their being there. 

This is how he told it to me.............

"This guy came at me with a really widely swinging roundhouse punch. Straight away I thought 'Five Swords'.

Unfortunately, due to the amount of beer I had drunk by the time I got the block in I was laying on the floor on my back."

We're NEVER going to let him forget it :rofl: 

Les


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## Maltair (Feb 11, 2004)

Was he laying on the floor doing the tech in the air?!:rofl:


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## satans.barber (Feb 11, 2004)

This is one of my big worries, how exactly in-grained are our skills, and do they work well when we've had a bit to drink!?

I've only tested it once and it worked fine, trouble is, I'd drunk too much so I can't remember what I did! 

We came out of the pub, and one of my mates came up and grabbed me from behind (fellow kenpoist so we're always messing about like Kato and Clouseau!), next thing I knew I'd done _something_ and he's flat out on his back in the car park with his glasses snapped in half!

Dunno what it was but it obviously worked!

Ian.


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## Les (Feb 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *This is one of my big worries, how exactly in-grained are our skills, and do they work well when we've had a bit to drink!?
> 
> Ian. *



I seem to recall SGM Parker saying something about losing a belt level of skill for every pint you drink.

I can't remember the exact phrase, but it was something like that.

Of course, there are those who beleive they become more skilled when they have been drinking, like the ones who say they are better drivers when they've had a few beers. 

You have to :rofl:  at that!

Les


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## Shodan (Feb 11, 2004)

I have never been in a "real" fight before, but I do recall one of my past instructors telling us to try to pull off one of our techniques (of our choice) while sparring and it was very diffucult to get very far.  Of course, this could have been cuz it was in the studio and everyone was studying the same art, etc.   Thought it was kind of an interesting exercise to work on though.

  In a "real" fight, I would think that most techs. in most cases would not go to the end if you hit all your targets from the beginning.  (And assuming you are not fighting someone on drugs or not feeling pain, etc).

  :asian:  :karate:


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## Eyedoc (Feb 11, 2004)

I'm new here, so if I break protocol, please forgive me.  I have a comment about the techniques.  I agree that in a fight, you won't be able to complete the entire sequence of moves...like a kata.  Not only will you get the crap kicked out you if you try, you'll be made fun of in the process!  I kind of equate it in my head to driving a car.  I don't always have to speed up, check my mirrors, flip someone the bird, use left turn signal everytime I drive.  I use what I need at the time.  Hopefully in a fight, when I punch someone in the face it will be over.  Incidentally, I actually use the bird most of the time when I drive


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## Eyedoc (Feb 11, 2004)

I'm actually orange, not white belt.  I screwed up my profile...told you I was new


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## Les (Feb 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Eyedoc _
> *I'm actually orange, not white belt.  I screwed up my profile...told you I was new *




Welcome to Martial Talk

No, you didn't screw up your profile, the White Belt refers to your 'posting rank' on here.

The more posts you make, the higher your rank climbs.
Here's the 'syllabus'  

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Les


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## Nick Ellerton (Feb 12, 2004)

funny you should say that, i had a couple of shots one night and i dont drink and here i am trying to do all of these kenpo techniques and they just didnt feel good at all!!  and aparently looked like a blind man flailing his arms and legs everywhere so i was glad i gave guys a laugh, but because of that i do not drink to the point i impare my perceptive components.


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## Doc (Feb 12, 2004)

I wholeheartedly disagree!

There is no reason why you should not be able to "complete" a technique sequence "on the street." However there are some techniques that have multiple moves that are not designed to be completed through its entire sequence. Every default technique beyond simple function should teach specific skills and present functional ideas.

The "Assumption of Failure" excuse for an excess of multiple moves is a false one. If a person was not good enough to make the first three moves work, why should they assume they would be successful with the fourth? Especially if the first is a block.

Its not "over kill or over skill," its "lack of skill." A truly skilled person would not attempt to beat on a person unsuccessfully, but instead chooses the level of destruction and the extent he wishes to take a technique deep into its sequence, or alter the destructive potential as necessary.

"Sword Of Destruction" (EPAK) may be ended on the first move if desired (NOT hitting the throat), or carried through to it's default knockout conclusion, or even altered to  a lock takedown and pin. It's a matter of choice based on factors determined at the moment of and during the attack.

If all you can do is "flail" and hope something works, you're a "tiger" who is NOT working toward being a "dragon." The mark of a true master has always been the ability through great skill and knowledge to modulate the level of destruction to your attacker, and save his life while saving your own as well.

As for all the "drinking fighters," perhaps that is the reason Ed Parker Sr. withheld a significant amount of knowledge and information, and didn't "hang out" with some of you. He listened to many of these stories told with "pride and glee" of being "sloshed" and kicking the crap out of someone in drunken brawls. Trust me, it worried him and he hated it but for reasons of his own, he never said anything about it publicly.


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## pete (Feb 12, 2004)

> The "Assumption of Failure" excuse for an excess of multiple moves is a false one. If a person was not good enough to make the first three moves work, why should they assume they would be successful with the fourth? Especially if the first is a block. - Doc



I whole-heatedly agree with this statement... there is a law of diminishing returns based on the success or failure of a previous moves.  There is also a great deal of gray area in the assumption of  "missing" or "making" a move. 

Your block may deflect a potential attack, but if it is not controlled the following move may not be effective, leaving the followup to that one even less effective, if feasible at all.  

Rather than assume failure or success, one must "listen" (or feel) and respond to the situation... using the arsenal of techniques.   

This is what sparring teaches us, and specifically why we use our techniques when we spar, rather than pure free style.


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