# Need Advice Please



## ajthread (Jun 28, 2006)

My 2 kids have been training in Tang Soo Do since October and have since earned their blue belt. The belt system is this - white, gold, purple, orange, blue, green, brown, red, red/black. My problem is that this place has only been open a year and now there are so many new kids and no space that it now appears that the classes are geared towards them. Warm-ups then endless punching/blocking/kicking drills with some frog leaps or races thrown in to get the kids having fun. Sparring has been limited to 2-3 times a week for 2 minutes. There is a 30 min Friday night class that is more specialized and they told us the kids could practice forms at that class. There are once a month "patch Saturday" classes for 1 hour where they will learn different techniques such as grappling, sweeping, sparring, kicking etc. but that's the end of learning those things unless it's taught Friday night. They also told us that if a tournament is coming up they would probably hold a saturday class for that. Is this good training??? It's like the kids' training has come to a screeching halt! We're new at this, we don't know if these changes are good or not but we don't like the changes at all. They also stated that forms aren't geared for kids but for adults. Is that true?? Please, could someone explain all this to me?????


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## mjd (Jun 28, 2006)

As a parent you shuld respectfully discuss your concern with the instructor, or chief instructor.

I do think Hyungs (forms) are great for kids, develops targeting, focus, movement, balance, control and many other goods things, and also is a great cardio.

Tang Soo!


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## michaeledward (Jun 28, 2006)

I know very little about the art in which your children are studying. So please, take my comments as those from a 'knucklehead with a computer'. As mjd said, these concerns should be discussed with the head instructor at the school. 

You did not mention the age of your children. That could have a bearing on what is studied. Many times, the programs for younger children are more about burning excess energy. There may be some discipline benefits, focus benefits, and respect benefits, but it may just be fancy baby-sitting.

Moving through five belt levels in 9 months seems a bit agressive. I will defer to Tang Soo Do practitioners to clarify if that is 'normal' for the art. 

If your children started when the school first opened, you may have gotten used to having 'private' lessons. That is not the norm, I don't think. Usually, class is attended by many students of different ranks, and all the ranks work on material appropriate for their level. As the school's attendance increases, losing that 'private / semi-private' less on feel, would be normal. 

The 'extra' classes, for sparring, for tournaments, for patches, for different techniques (aka grappling), seem to be about generating extra money for the school. Nothing wrong with that. If you want your children to learn Tang Soo Do, you don't need to go to the grappling class. 

As for 'forms' ... Forms are designed to act as a knowledge warehouse of the martial art. All of the important items in the art should be recorded in the motion of the 'form'. I can only imagine that forms are a critically important part of any martial art - even if, as children, some of the meaning in the form is not understood. 

My suggestion is to be a bit more patient, here and in the school. Others with more knowledge in this art will perhaps offer more insight. Don't be afraid to ask your head instructor these questions. And, if the answers aren't satisfactory, don't be afraid to bring your children to a different school or a different art. 

Again, if anything I said is too far off ... just remember, I'm just a guy with a keyboard. 

Good Luck.


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## KOROHO (Jun 28, 2006)

Tang Soo Do is a wonderful art and if taught properly is good self defense in addition to exercise and all the other benefits of martial arts.

It sounds more like this class, however, has discovered the key to a successful commercial school.  That is catering to parents who just need a place to drop off thier kids for a while.  Most of these kids are there primarily to have fun and arenot really concerend about learning good martial arts.  And if they are not having fun, then the parents will take them to another "baby sitting service".

It is true that the arts are more geared towards adults than kids.  After all, it is a "martial" art.  

You should probably talk to owner of the school about your concerns.  But most likely you will need to plan on finding a better school for your kids.
My only concern is that schools like this usually have you locked into a contract.  Hopefully that is not the case and you can move them to another school without having to buy out of the contract.


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## shesulsa (Jun 28, 2006)

ajthread said:
			
		

> My 2 kids have been training in Tang Soo Do since October and have since earned their blue belt. The belt system is this - white, gold, purple, orange, blue, green, brown, red, red/black. My problem is that this place has only been open a year and now there are so many new kids and no space that it now appears that the classes are geared towards them. Warm-ups then endless punching/blocking/kicking drills with some frog leaps or races thrown in to get the kids having fun. Sparring has been limited to 2-3 times a week for 2 minutes. There is a 30 min Friday night class that is more specialized and they told us the kids could practice forms at that class. There are once a month "patch Saturday" classes for 1 hour where they will learn different techniques such as grappling, sweeping, sparring, kicking etc. but that's the end of learning those things unless it's taught Friday night. They also told us that if a tournament is coming up they would probably hold a saturday class for that. Is this good training??? It's like the kids' training has come to a screeching halt! We're new at this, we don't know if these changes are good or not but we don't like the changes at all. They also stated that forms aren't geared for kids but for adults. Is that true?? Please, could someone explain all this to me?????



Our resident Tang Soo expert is away on vacation ... he might be able to shed more light on this issue at the end of the week - username is 'upnorthkyosa'


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jun 28, 2006)

I have no experience with TSD, other than sparring with practitioners of TSD. That said, I can tell you what we do with the kids at boxing. 

We spend about 20 min warming-up, i.e., rope, calisthenics, plyometrics, shadow boxing and sprinting drills (sprinting shadow boxing), and stretching. 

Then we spend about twenty minutes working bag and pads (30 min total: 5 bags two pad men x 3min. rounds with 1 min. rest). 

Twenty minutes of pad work, slower and focusing on technique, and for older kids light sparring with full-gear--not the foam, karate gear, but top-notch boxing gear.

Finally, a two-round cool-down consisting of light, tech-focused shadow boxing (2x3min/w2x1min rest)​
I say this only to give you a basis for comparison. We run our children's program under PAL, so it's basically free. Sometimes we have no kids, sometimes five, and sometimes the place is so packed that you can barely move for drills. What we do is make sure the new kids get the basic tech-drills and the students advancing are doing advanced work. Basically the kids that show up every time and progress don't get shoved aside. 

In my opinion, thirty minutes is not a class worthy of taking seriously, even for adults, studying under the greatest instructors, ever. Sparring 2-3 times a week for two minutes should be okay, depending on how young your children are. After they reach a certain skill-level/age, they should be working multiple rounds 2-3 times a week, if not every class.

Watch out for "special class" prices. It's convenient for a dojo to say: _"we are really busy, but we'd love to work with your kid, because we think he's got a lot of potential, so we've set up a special class, which we are charging a bit more for, because we have to go out of our way." _ It may be perfectly true, just use your common sense. 

I think that's about all the lame advise I have to give.


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## mjd (Jun 29, 2006)

5 ranks in 9 months is not the normal rate of advancement in TSD, Ive studied and run my own TSD studio for the past 16 years. I have never moved even the most talented student along that fast.

Generally 10th gup to 8th gup takes about ~1 year, from there it slows down to every 6 to 9 months for each rank advancement, if the student has their head on straight. Over all ~5 to 7 years to make 1st Dan (black belt).

Sounds like a belt factory, its not just the physical technique in TSD its about the Mind, Body, and Spirit, we are in truth if holding to TSD traditionalism building the character of a TSD Martial Artist, this is the most important part and this takes time.

Building a respectful, trustworthy, honest, loyal person is worth the wait, this is the ultimate self defense technique.


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## Makalakumu (Jul 2, 2006)

ajthread said:
			
		

> My 2 kids have been training in Tang Soo Do since October and have since earned their blue belt. The belt system is this - white, gold, purple, orange, blue, green, brown, red, red/black.


 
The traditional ranks in TSD are white, green, red, and black.  It sounds like the instructor has added some steps.  This may have been done for many reasons.  Sometimes it is done to help motivate children to stick with it.  Typically, it takes one year to move from white to green.  Basically, your children, even at "blue belt" are still beginners.  My advice is don't worry about rank so much...time in class is more important.



> My problem is that this place has only been open a year and now there are so many new kids and no space that it now appears that the classes are geared towards them. Warm-ups then endless punching/blocking/kicking drills with some frog leaps or races thrown in to get the kids having fun.


 
When a new school opens up, one of the biggest challenges is not only getting people through the door, but keeping them there.  It sounds like the teacher is really trying to focus on hooking the noobs.  

Also, a place that has only been open for a year isn't neccessarily going to have a teacher that really has all of the kinks worked out yet.  My dojang has been open for five years and I'm constantly tweaking things...



> Sparring has been limited to 2-3 times a week for 2 minutes.


 
This isn't bad if it is taught right.  By that I mean that throwing down for two minutes at the end of a class isn't long enough.  If the rounds are two minutes and some good how-to instruction is included, then, that is good.



> There is a 30 min Friday night class that is more specialized and they told us the kids could practice forms at that class. There are once a month "patch Saturday" classes for 1 hour where they will learn different techniques such as grappling, sweeping, sparring, kicking etc. but that's the end of learning those things unless it's taught Friday night. They also told us that if a tournament is coming up they would probably hold a saturday class for that.


 
Interesting.  No two TSD dojangs are going to be exactly alike.  We all tend to put our own twist on the art and make it our own.  IMHO there isn't enough time being dedicated to really learning that stuff.  However, the times may be short because of the students age.  In that case, just go with it and keep in mind the developmental level of your kids.



> Is this good training??? It's like the kids' training has come to a screeching halt! We're new at this, we don't know if these changes are good or not but we don't like the changes at all.


 
Whether or not the training is good is really hard to judge over the internet.  If the school has a website or you know what organization the school belongs too would help.  There are alot of unknowns, like the age of your kids, the quality of the organization, the type of school, etc...however, here is my opinion...

The teacher needs to spend some more time teachings students who have advanced a little.  It's easy to focus on the noobs to the detriment of everyone else because they require so much time to instruct (at my dojang, I created a special class for noobs).  I think the teacher is probably new and has yet to work out some of the major kinks in regards to actually teaching the material.  Talk to the teacher and explains your concerns.  It will only help the instruction.  Too often people forget that teaching is a learning experience.  



> They also stated that forms aren't geared for kids but for adults. Is that true?? Please, could someone explain all this to me?????


 
In many ways, this is true.  A form has many layers and children may not be developmentally ready to unlock those layers.  Their minds just have not developed to the point where you can see a form as it truly is supposed to be.  I would say that kids of ages 11-12 are probably just becoming ready to learn how to actually use a form.  Before that, forms usefull for memorization and exercise.  And the younger the kids are, the more time it requires for them to actually memorize the movements.  If your kids are under 6, it may actually make more sense to completely eschew them in favor of other stuff that better fits their developmental needs.


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## Sipsoo Dragon (Jul 5, 2006)

Hi,

After reading through the thread my advice would be the same, talk to the instructor and voice your concerns. My school grew very fast after a successful advertising campaign I decided it would be better to split the class according to rank i.e. 10th Gup to 5th Gup and 4th Gup and above, that way I could concentrate on the students development through training.

Hope this helps in some small way.

Pil Seung

Ken :asian:


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Aug 5, 2006)

Greetings to all,
One of the things that always brings me back to this discussion board is the consistent high quality and professional nature of the contributing parties.

I have been teaching Tang Soo Do since 1975, and have black belt ranking in several other systems as well. 

There are many ways to interpret what might be going on in this school, and _they may not be all bad_

One very good possibility is that; as the school is fairly new, the instructor may be as well. Often times, a new instructor does not yet understand how to deal with growth spurts, and may loose the interest of students that have been around longer, like your children. By discussing this with the chief instructor, you will be giving him/her the necessary input to restructure his/her schedule, as to keep your children, and others involved. 

*Remember*, if you just quit, there may be others that will (or have already) do the same. This may be an instructor with great future potential that simply needs to be aware of your concerns.   

If you want to contact me for further assistance, I can be reached at: masterjayspenfil@yahoo.com 
248-561-5700 (cell)


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!


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