# Handshake Attacks, Gift in Return, Gift of Destiny, Broken Gift



## Dan G (Feb 10, 2006)

I have been at a loss ever since I started kenpo to understand why a handshake, "crushing" or otherwise could constitute an attack worth training against. Even though I like the Gift techniques themselves I still have nagging doubts about the method of initiating them. Gift in Return in particular seems like a very odd thing to do against a handshake. Basically, great techniques, but unusual or absent set up strike for the control manipulation and very wierd attacks to respond to...

Looking through a Chin Na book and reading up on fingerlocks got me thinking of an explanation that made some sense to me. 

Here goes:

If the attacker puts a thumb lock on with the intention of bringing the defender to their knees (in a similar vertical plane of motion to the attack in Bow of Compulsion) an appropriate counter could be Gift in Return. 

If the attacker puts on a thumblock which turns the defenders right hand counterclockwise to a palm down position (defender's viewpoint) (with the possible intent of stepping past the defender and feeding the defenders arm behind their back into a hammerlock as per the attack in Locked Wing) then one natural response for the defender is to turn their body clockwise setting up for the elbow break to the attacker in Broken Gift.

If the attacker puts on a thumblock which turns the defenders right hand clockwise to a palm up position (defender's viewpoint) (with the intent of raising the defender's hand and perhaps putting on a lock by turning the defender and wrapping the arm around the defender's own neck, or overbalancing him) then the defender's arm is forced into a raised and flexed position, and the attacker's body positioned, for the elbow strike in Gift of Destiny.

I've played with these a little and they seem to work for me, but I don't have enough knowledge of thumblocks/fingerlocks to put on the attacks very well, so I don't know if the Gift techniques would be effective counters against an expertly applied thumblock... 

I'd be really interested to hear the thoughts of kenpo practitioners with Hawaian jujitsu or Chin-Na experience, and any tips would be really welcome.

If anyone has any other thoughts on the handshake attacks I'd also be really interested to hear their opinions.

Respectfully

Dan


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## Ceicei (Feb 10, 2006)

I, too, at first thought the Kenpo handshake techniques were odd.  Even after some years of studying Kenpo, I continued to feel that way.  It was not until I started taking up Judo/Danzan JuJitsu recently that these techniques started making sense to me.

I suppose initially, when learning techniques, we tend to have them set up in a static way (which generally is put in an unrealistic manner, until we learn to become more adaptive/dynamic with experience and using the what-if approach).    I learned a great deal about wrist/finger locks that finally started making more sense of how Kenpo works.  In fact, I now look at Kenpo with new eyes, and realized then that Mr. Ed Parker's experience and background in creating these techniques went way beyond than what appeared on the surface and the first few layers.  He is a genius in many ways.

There is a lot more than just thumblocks as potential attacks.  There is a whole host of other types of attacks, while not typical of an average fighter, are definitely possible.

One thing that caused me to ponder is the possibility that since Mr. Ed Parker grew up on Hawaiian islands (where many of the people practice FMA and JuJitsu/JuJutsu styles), whether these scenarios he created are based on attackers employing these types of knowledge not commonly found with the mainland attackers.  However, he has lived long enough in Utah and California as well as travelled around extensively as a bodyguard; he evidently would not focus too extensively with the cultural differences of attackers.

Your thread holds great interest for me as I am currently exploring these ideas.  I am delighted to know there is someone else out there looking into this too.

Before I continue on with some more of my thoughts, I would like to know if you have any experience with a grappling style, especially one that focuses a lot with joint locks?

- Ceicei


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## Dan G (Feb 10, 2006)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Before I continue on with some more of my thoughts, I would like to know if you have any experience with a grappling style, especially one that focuses a lot with joint locks?
> 
> - Ceicei


 
I did about a year and a half or so of Tomiki Aikido about 10 years ago, and a little bit of Iwama-ryu Aikido about 5 years ago.

I am very interested to hear from someone with Danzan-ryu experience - if I don't understand something you're explaining I'll definitely ask! Thanks for posting!

Regards

Dan


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## Ray (Feb 11, 2006)

I don't know where the handshake can go, in terms of grappling, but I have seen the cheap shot: "Hey, man, I'm sorry" {extends hand for handshake, grasps hand of other person and throws left sucker punch to other person's face}.


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## Brian Jones (Feb 11, 2006)

Its not just the handshake.  Its a handshake with a a "sucker punch" typs of scenario.  Or use some imaginaation.  Someone grabs your wrist and you countergrab.  This puts you virtually in the same posistion as a handshake

Brian Jones


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## Martial Tucker (Feb 11, 2006)

I'm a TKD practitioner, so I'm not going to delve into the Kempo responses to 
an unfriendly handshake, but as for why you should train a bit for it, I will tell you that here in Chicago, a very popular means of mugging people a while back was to approach a stranger with your hand extended, acting as if you were approaching an old friend that you haven't seen in years. The vast majority of people that you do this to will blindly just stick their hand out and accept your handshake while they try to figure out who the hell you are, and why they can't remember you. As soon as the attacker has your hand (the dominant hand for most people) you are very vulnerable to a sucker punch, as stated earlier, or a 2nd attacker may then approach from behind.


In other words, don't blow this defense off as trivial.


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## Dan G (Feb 11, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> I'm a TKD practitioner, so I'm not going to delve into the Kempo responses to
> an unfriendly handshake, but as for why you should train a bit for it, I will tell you that here in Chicago, a very popular means of mugging people a while back was to approach a stranger with your hand extended, acting as if you were approaching an old friend that you haven't seen in years. The vast majority of people that you do this to will blindly just stick their hand out and accept your handshake while they try to figure out who the hell you are, and why they can't remember you. As soon as the attacker has your hand (the dominant hand for most people) you are very vulnerable to a sucker punch, as stated earlier, or a 2nd attacker may then approach from behind.
> 
> 
> In other words, don't blow this defense off as trivial.


 
Thanks, that is really interesting, and pretty sneaky psychology! The explanation (and that of Ray and Brian Jones) makes sense as well.

I wonder how many types of sucker attack are possible from the handshake. It would be interesting to hear opinions and experiences from people.

Regards

Dan


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## Carol (Feb 11, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> a very popular means of mugging people a while back was to approach a stranger with your hand extended, acting as if you were approaching an old friend that you haven't seen in years.


 
Wow.  I never knew that.  Great info.

I'm curious...when I moved to the city to attend college (way back when), my mom cautioned me against bringing my rings to school.  She was worried that a mugger might take them off my hand.  

I haven't trained on these techniques.  For you all that have...what do you think?  If a mugger tried to grab (say) your class ring, would this technique work against that kind of move?

Thanks,
Carol


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## Sam (Feb 11, 2006)

my instructor told me that a possible use for a handshake technique is the person starts crushing your hand. 

The only handshake technique I know is called crane leap.


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## Dan G (Feb 12, 2006)

Sam said:
			
		

> my instructor told me that a possible use for a handshake technique is the person starts crushing your hand.
> 
> The only handshake technique I know is called crane leap.


 
I am not familiar with the Tracy techniques, and I'd be interested to learn how the technique is executed? I am guessing that with a name like Crane Leap there is a kick to the attacker's knee involved...

Dan


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## Sam (Feb 12, 2006)

This is a pruple belt technique at my studio.

I copied this from my personal notes.

Crane Leap
For a handshake. Grab their arm at about the elbow with your left hand. Lift your left leg up, then pull their arm in towards you as you knee them in the groin with your right leg. (like a chicken kick) Right sidekick to right their knee as they fall. Then turn and softbow chop to the back of the neck with your left hand.


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## arnisador (Feb 12, 2006)

It's true that it can be a set-up for a sucker punch. It's also a common demo. move because its sets up locks so well.

You'll put _yourself _in the handshake position if your opponent has a knife or club--you'll wrap your hand about his in (more-or-less) that position. Replace that hand extending for a shake with a hand stabbing with a knife; get off-line and grab with your right hand. Depending on how exactly you do this, you may end up in handshake position.


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## Doc (Feb 13, 2006)

Dan G said:
			
		

> I have been at a loss ever since I started kenpo to understand why a handshake, "crushing" or otherwise could constitute an attack worth training against. Even though I like the Gift techniques themselves I still have nagging doubts about the method of initiating them. Gift in Return in particular seems like a very odd thing to do against a handshake. Basically, great techniques, but unusual or absent set up strike for the control manipulation and very wierd attacks to respond to...


Not really Dan. Although a defense against a handshake is a viable defense to have, the techniques are multi-faceted. Think of them as being, in addition to a handshake, as a cross grab to the wrist, and a whole new set of possibilities will open to you from an offensive and defensive perspective. Also consider they are seizing from the flank as well as the front. It is the beginning of Dan Zan Ryu control manipulation responses.

Start with learning the defenses inherent in "Gift of Destruction." That in itself will really open your eyes, and you will be getting that soon.


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## Dan G (Feb 18, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Not really Dan. Although a defense against a handshake is a viable defense to have, the techniques are multi-faceted. Think of them as being, in addition to a handshake, as a cross grab to the wrist, and a whole new set of possibilities will open to you from an offensive and defensive perspective. Also consider they are seizing from the flank as well as the front. It is the beginning of Dan Zan Ryu control manipulation responses.
> 
> Start with learning the defenses inherent in "Gift of Destruction." That in itself will really open your eyes, and you will be getting that soon.


 
Thankyou! That gives me lots of food for thought.
I've had a very quick look (I think) at the tweaks to Gift of Destruction that you mention, and will hopefully get to see more shortly. I'm becoming increasingly interested in the control manipualtion aspects of the art at present, and from what I saw briefly I am definitely looking forward to working on it further. 



			
				Arnisador said:
			
		

> It's true that it can be a set-up for a sucker punch. It's also a common demo. move because its sets up locks so well.
> 
> You'll put _yourself _in the handshake position if your opponent has a knife or club--you'll wrap your hand about his in (more-or-less) that position. Replace that hand extending for a shake with a hand stabbing with a knife; get off-line and grab with your right hand. Depending on how exactly you do this, you may end up in handshake position.


 
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. When I started the thread I should have made a point of asking for FMA viewpoints as well as it always brings out useful info. My bad, thanks for contributing anyway!

Dan:asian:


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## Big Don (Sep 3, 2007)

Having been in a few barfights, (misspent youth...  )I could see Gift of Destruction and Broken Gift as offensive rather than defensive. Scenario: In a bar you know you are about to be in a fight, you walk to your opponent, right hand extended and offer to buy him a beer, he takes your hand, and you execute. But, that could just be my bad attitude...


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## kenpofighter (Dec 5, 2007)

I agree with Martial Tucke.  I have talked to some kenpo guys from Chicago and they told me it was very common to see a friendly handshake turn into an attack. 

I was always taught that Gift in Return was a good defence for a "downward crushing" handshake.  Broken Gift maybe for a sucker punch geting ready to happen, and Gift of Destruction is a good teck. for someone pulling you into a punch or something else.


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## CoryKS (Dec 5, 2007)

Well, I have been the recipient of a dishonorable handshake, and I wish I had had these techniques then.  It uses the victims sense of decency against him because if you refuse the offer, you look like a jerk.  "Hey, no hard feelings.  What, you won't shake my hand?"  Often, refusal will lead to further escalation because now you've given offense.

Haven't encountered one of these for a long time; it seems to be one of those things that a certain breed of teenager finds amusing.  Hurts like hell, though.


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## michaeledward (Dec 5, 2007)

I think that the gift techniques are perhaps even more important for persons of smaller stature. A grasping hand shake ~ seen from the third person point of view ~ does not appear to be very threatening. Anybody looking at a punch being thrown, knows who is being aggressive. With a handshake, it doesn't necessarily appear aggresive. 

If a bad guy wants to create compliance, an unfriendly handshake can lend itself in that direction without appearing so.

I think the same thing with 'Beggins Hands'. I don't see this as a reasonable attack on a bigger person. But, I could see the two handed grab as a means of controlling a smaller person. Specifically, I could see a dispute between a couple escalating in a public place, where the larger person takes hold of the wrists of the smaller person and turns. From the third person point of view, it would appear that one is just trying to calm down the other. 

Some grabs are obvioulsy aggressive ... but the handshakes don't appear that way. In the First Person point of view, however, the level of hostility can be much more apparent.


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## punisher73 (Dec 5, 2007)

As stated previously.  In the western culture, handshakes have an almost pavlovian response to them.  We see a hand extended in a handshake and we do one of two things. 1)  Look down at the extended hand, even if we fight the conditioning to just shake it since it is rude not to shake hands with someone, which leads us open to a sucker punch and 2) we look down at the extended hand and shake it, which again leaves us open to a sucker punch.

As a side note, most people are semi aware of their personal space and someone intruding in on it.  What better way to bypass into their space and lower their guard for a split second than with a universally "friendly" gesture.


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## Jim Hanna (Dec 5, 2007)

Big Don said:


> Having been in a few barfights, (misspent youth...  )I could see Gift of Destruction and Broken Gift as offensive rather than defensive. Scenario: In a bar you know you are about to be in a fight, you walk to your opponent, right hand extended and offer to buy him a beer, he takes your hand, and you execute. But, that could just be my bad attitude...


 
That's what I call understanding the attack.  I teach the same thing.  I also show my students "how" to shake hands, i.e. with the left leg forward and the right hand extended.  If someone extends their left hand then be ready (unless, of course, they don't have a good right hand).

Jim


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## kidswarrior (Dec 5, 2007)

Although not kenpo specific, this thread was pretty good, I thought: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51508&highlight=handshake Some here may be interested in the ideas there.


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## Koshiki (Sep 19, 2013)

My school, TKD-based, not kempo, doesn't officially teach handshake-attack defenses, but I think we must collectively know a disturbingly large amount. We view them as parlor-trick type things, like, "hey guys, guys, check out this hilarious new way so-and-so showed me to inflict pain from a handshake!!!" That said, as others have mentioned, if you're learning self-defense, you might as well cover-your bases! A lot of handshake-based ouchy-things can be easily translated into come-along escort type things, or whatnot. So, perhaps not the defense you are most likely to need on the dreaded "street," but hey, if it's out there, you might as well learn it, no?


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 8, 2013)

I learned a few of those when I was doing Hapkido for a while, they were quite good so I have incorporated them into my repertoire. Also when they go for the sucker punch you can move your head or block/deflect the punch. One thing you can do when a stranger comes up to shake your hand for no reason is take one step forward or backwards so that one foot is in front of the other and to only extend your arm so that your elbow is close to your body. That will increase your leverage and will reduce his if he has to extend his hand further away from him to meet yours. That way you can be defensive without appearing to be.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 8, 2013)

My next class will be on defences againts the wave.


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## DennisBreene (Oct 8, 2013)

There is a series of finger lock defenses in FMA (from Wally Jay small circle jiu jitsu through Remy Presas, I believe) that is an interesting entry technique into defense against aggressive moves such as pushing a finger toward someone or placing a palm onto the chest. They are fun to practice and impressive in their ability to control an opponent when used by a skilled practitioner. A training session usually leaves everyone going home with sore hands and fingers and a little humility.  I think of them as an option for controlling the escalation of violence if you are skilled, and setting up an opponent for serious harm if you deem it necessary.


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## Mauthos (Oct 9, 2013)

This is quite an interesting old thread especially as I was teaching some of the 'Gift' techniques last night.  Personally whether it ever happens or not I think when learning SD techniques it is useful to learn as many as you can from as many different attacks as possible, therefore an unfriendly handshake has never really been that surprising to me.

However, with the basic Gift of Destruction being particularly simple yet effective and one I think is fairly useful, after all these years I must admit that I still struggle to find an actual scenario where I would use Gift in Return, that one has never seemed that useful to me, doesn't flow that well and there is the potential for mistakes.  I would probably never use this one myself.  However, if anyone can enlighten me to a situation where that particular 'gift' would be the best choice to use I would be interested to find out your reasons why.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 10, 2013)

Mauthos said:


> This is quite an interesting old thread especially as I was teaching some of the 'Gift' techniques last night. Personally whether it ever happens or not I think when learning SD techniques it is useful to learn as many as you can from as many different attacks as possible, therefore an unfriendly handshake has never really been that surprising to me.
> 
> However, with the basic Gift of Destruction being particularly simple yet effective and one I think is fairly useful, after all these years I must admit that I still struggle to find an actual scenario where I would use Gift in Return, that one has never seemed that useful to me, doesn't flow that well and there is the potential for mistakes. I would probably never use this one myself. However, if anyone can enlighten me to a situation where that particular 'gift' would be the best choice to use I would be interested to find out your reasons why.


A good reason off the top of my head is that this both cancel you opponents actions, and is hard to see what is happening by both the opponent any third parties.
Sean


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