# Ninjutsu for begginers?



## Anvil Of Crom (Jan 2, 2011)

I'm a newbie to martial arts, always been interested in them. I've just started getting over a 3 month long illness which debilitated  me and I want to take up a martial art to get myself moving again. In my local area I have a choice between Jeet Kune Do and Ninjutsu.

I want to know if Ninjutsu is a good option for a beginner? The dojo is run by a guy named Wayne Roy who apparently founded Ninjutsu in Australia and trained in Japan with Grandmaster Hatsumi in the 1980's so he sounds like the real deal. Has anyone heard of him before? Any information or advice would be appreciated.

here's a link to the website http://www.tesoma.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3&Itemid=3


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## Supra Vijai (Jan 2, 2011)

Hi,

Yeah it's the real deal. I'm a student under Sensei's Roy's dojo in Melbourne. You may want to update your link as well. www.ninjutsuaustralia.com

Depends on what you're after really. Something more traditional I'd recommend Ninjutsu as it's quite rich in history etc. 

Contact Chris Parker if you were after more information on these schools and other options (he's my instructor in Melbourne and an active poster on these forums)


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## Anvil Of Crom (Jan 2, 2011)

Thanks for the reply. 

Yes, I'm very interested in the historical aspect of the art which is another reason I'd pick Ninjutsu or other traditional art over Jeet Kune Do.


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## Supra Vijai (Jan 2, 2011)

Anvil Of Crom said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> Yes, I'm very interested in the historical aspect of the art which is another reason I'd pick Ninjutsu or other traditional art over Jeet Kune Do.


 
No problems. To be honest I'm very biased though lol. I started training not really knowing what to expect and found it was nothing like I'd imagined. No costumes, no mystical finger seals, no hiding in trees throwing ninja stars but I fell in love with the art and 3 years on am starting to realise that I've barely begun to scratch the surface. Not to say JKD isn't good at what it is, it's just not Ninjutsu. Apples to Oranges really. 

Where abouts are you located? If you are actually training with Sensei Roy, I'm jealous... I've trained with him about 3 times in the past 3 years (being on the opposite end of the country to him) and the guy is phenomenal. 

To answer your question about beginners though, yeah like anything else they don't expect you to have a black belt in something before you train. Walk in, watch a class, try a class and see how you go. Go at your own pace and just have fun.


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## Anvil Of Crom (Jan 2, 2011)

I'm in Sydney and I'm looking at attending a class in Cronulla under *Sensei Justin Goodall.




*


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## Supra Vijai (Jan 2, 2011)

Ahh nice. Well as I said contact the school directly or Chris Parker on here, go down and watch a class, ask any questions there and see if it's for you. Finding the "Right art" is only half of it. You also need to make sure the instructor/s is "right" for you. 

We head over to Sydney sometimes for special seminars with Sensei Roy who makes the trip down from Brisbane so if you start training, we might run into each other  All the best!


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## Anvil Of Crom (Jan 2, 2011)

Thanks for the advice Vijai.

I'll go along to a class next week in Cronulla and check it out. I'm pretty sure Ninjutsu will be the right choice for me though. It seems like a very well rounded and practical martial art.


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## Supra Vijai (Jan 2, 2011)

Supra actually, Vijai is my surname  But you're most welcome. It is quite well rounded and as to the specifics of what you'll cover (both traditional weapons, and modern self defence) largely depends on your personal instructor so they will be the best person to speak to.


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## Anvil Of Crom (Jan 2, 2011)

Sorry about that Supra.


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 2, 2011)

I agree with Supra on this one!!  

You can take such a personal approach to Ninjutsu, The more you put into Ninjutsu the more you get in the end my friend..  The key is Endurance, and with the will power you've demonstrated with enduring illness you will for sure succeed in your Nin training!!  

Blessings to you Uke!!


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## Chris Parker (Jan 3, 2011)

Hi Anvil,

Each Ninjutsu organisation has it's own "flavour", so to speak, the way we approach the arts is rather different from the Bujinkan, for example. So if you have seen a number of You-Tube clips, you may get a different feeling from the classes themselves (hopefully a good one!). Justin Goodall is a very solid practitioner, I hope you enjoy the class.


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## Tez3 (Jan 3, 2011)

Totally off topic but as you are all Aussies I'd thought I'd ask! I'm assuming that you are all away from the floods? It says on the news they are really bad so was hoping you and yours are all okay.


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## Supra Vijai (Jan 3, 2011)

Hey Tez, thanks for the concern  Yeah we're tucked away down south so fairly safe over here. The worst we get is a lot of rain ruining a great day but that's normal Melbourne weather. The worst flooding at present seems to be up in the far north, with places like Brisbane having torrential rain but no floods. The weather down here is wacky at best though...


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## Rayban (Jan 3, 2011)

Hi Anvil,

Welcome to MT and quite possibly Ninjutsu.  I joined with Supra (3 years ago, Really?) and I haven't really wanted to do anything else but this.  Its a good mix of classical teachings and how to handle yourself in street situations.


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## alburyscott (Jan 10, 2011)

Thank you Tez, all pretty good here too (relativly south here too). Been fairly waterlogged, much worse than normal for this time of year, but not flooded!


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## Indagator (Jan 11, 2011)

All the best on your journey, Anvil of Crom.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Jan 14, 2011)

I train in jyuku tatsu ninjutsu founded by Wayne Roy in melbourne.
I have trained in other martial arts. and I can ninjutsu is definitely easier on the body.  
there isn't any flashy high kick and stuff. its all about effective natural movement.

I think you will like jyuku tatsu ninjutsu. you will learn such a broad range of forms of martial arts. and plus the weapons and modern self defence. you usually dont find this in other martial arts. just usually specialising in one form of martial art you miss out on the rest.

Im very grateful of Wayne Roy and my sensei Chris Parker for making ninjutsu available to study in australia.


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## ElfTengu (Jan 20, 2011)

Anvil Of Crom said:


> In my local area I have a choice between Jeet Kune Do and Ninjutsu.


 
Do both. I do. Ninjutsu (BBT) on and off for 25 years, Jeet Kune Do for less than one year and I wish I had been doing the latter far longer as it allows me to put my taijutsu in perspective against other martial arts and fighting methods, which the general closed-shop approach of most taijutsu organisations does not permit, leaving people only able to fight against other people who have studied taijutsu, because they only deal with taijutsu attacks in their kata and most of the variations. 

It is easy to find someone from MMA who will permit you to break all the rules in order to spar/fight them and you will still lose.

It is easy to find an iaidoka or kendoka to test your mutodori against and you will lose.

It is easy to get into a Dog Brothers style stick fighting contest with a hanbo, jo or bo and you will lose. They will also be happy for you to break the rules but you will still lose.

But cross train in modern martial arts like JKD, BJJ and MMA, lightning fast swords styles like Katori Shinto Ryu, and full contact stickfighting styles like escrima, as well as 'ninjutsu' and you will be training according to Sun Tzu, knowing your enemy as well as you know yourself, in order to defeat them, and apparently Sun Tzu was instrumental in the creation of the ninja, so he knows what he is talking about.

Ninjutsu's/taijutsu's greatest strength is in its nastier methods, escalating the level of violence in order to prevail, usually by means of an ingenious tool or deceptive weapon, such a gun hidden in a fake sword to beat a fast draw swordsman, or shuko claws to defeat a grappler. But not only will you not be carrying any of these highly illegal items in public, but even shuko will not be much good against an MMAist if they punch your lights out or snap your arm before you get a chance to use them, plus we are regularly told that we should not hurt people if possible, even if they mean us harm, which is not easy if we have to resort to such extreme means to guarantee that we win. Which means using non-injurious grappling and striking which all these modern and sports-oriented martial artists are going to be much much much better at, because this is not only how they train ALL the time, but is also their primary objective. 

Our art is a bit like having a gun but only being allowed to use it as a hammer to hit people on the toes with!


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 21, 2011)

ElfTengu said:


> plus we are regularly told that we should not hurt people if possible, even if they mean us harm,



I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but the above is just not the right thing to teach imo. Don't fight unless it is absolutely necessary. So when you have to fight, the violence is warranted. Worrying too much about not hurting the other guy too bad is going to work against you.

I am not talking about a drunk friend attacking you, but someone who is really intent on hurting you or worse.


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## Chris Parker (Jan 21, 2011)

ElfTengu said:


> Do both. I do. Ninjutsu (BBT) on and off for 25 years, Jeet Kune Do for less than one year and I wish I had been doing the latter far longer as it allows me to put my taijutsu in perspective against other martial arts and fighting methods, which the general closed-shop approach of most taijutsu organisations does not permit, leaving people only able to fight against other people who have studied taijutsu, because they only deal with taijutsu attacks in their kata and most of the variations.
> 
> It is easy to find someone from MMA who will permit you to break all the rules in order to spar/fight them and you will still lose.
> 
> ...


 
While I'm not going to say don't do both, I'd personally advise more checking both out and seeing which *one *suits you more right now. As I've said, the way we teach is not the same as a more "standard" Bujinkan school, and trying to do two different systems, particularly as a beginner, is rife with issues. The biggest, of course, being that the two different systems and instructors can give conflicting ideas and concepts, and it can be very difficult for someone with little experience to differentiate between them to understand why the two approaches exist (which is essential if you're going to train in more than one system, I feel).

I would suggest that, although you may wish you had started JKD much earlier, if you had (especially if you had started both together) then you wouldn't be able to get the benefits to the degree that you have here. Really, though, these are two generalist systems, which, to a great degree, can be a little counter-productive to train both in. I'd probably suggest that the Budo Taijutsu is your primary art, and if pressed that is what will come out, and the JKD has helped solidify that for you with it's drilling methods and approach. And that only happens when solid experience is gained in a system first.

If both systems are trained from the get-go, the most typical thing that will happen is one will slide, and in the end only one will be trained anyway.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Jan 21, 2011)

I have looked at jkd striking methods and weaving and more of the boxing type thing that bruce lee developed to improve my on my street skills. i like how jkd is a more modern martial art that focus on relistic movement than traditional art. and i like the system without a system and not using form approach. 

I find I can take alot of fighting methods and that will improve my street skills. and I can take the ninjutsu philosophy and use that stratergy in modern self defence

maybe some stuff like hidden hand claw and blinding powder can't be used in real life. but survival grabs and toe stomping and all the nasty stuff ninjutsu is good for will work.

jkd is great though. my second favourite martial art would have to be jkd.


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## Chris Parker (Jan 21, 2011)

Not to bring this too much out here, but no you can't. Due to you mixing things up that way you are too high in your balance, you are getting minimilist power as you aren't using the mechanics of either system, you are over-extending your strikes, and you are using your hips to turn rather than your legs to generate power. You really are better off with one or the other, at least to begin with. Trust me on this.

EDIT: I should probably clarify that you are far from the only one there, there are a few that I am working through past habits with. But the points still stand.


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## ElfTengu (Jan 21, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but the above is just not the right thing to teach imo. Don't fight unless it is absolutely necessary. So when you have to fight, the violence is warranted. Worrying too much about not hurting the other guy too bad is going to work against you.
> 
> I am not talking about a drunk friend attacking you, but someone who is really intent on hurting you or worse.


 
It's our grandmaster who said it, in several books.


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## ElfTengu (Jan 21, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> While I'm not going to say don't do both, I'd personally advise more checking both out and seeing which *one *suits you more right now. As I've said, the way we teach is not the same as a more "standard" Bujinkan school, and trying to do two different systems, particularly as a beginner, is rife with issues. The biggest, of course, being that the two different systems and instructors can give conflicting ideas and concepts, and it can be very difficult for someone with little experience to differentiate between them to understand why the two approaches exist (which is essential if you're going to train in more than one system, I feel)..


 
I guess I am coming to a conclusion along the lines of that there ARE no different systems, just lots of people trying to fit themselves into a collection of methods that may not all be suitable for them as an individual.

I'm not suggesting that JKD and BBT fit together like a 2 piece jigsaw puzzle, but that there are people out there who are capable of drawing sufficient material from each art into a bespoke personal system for their own requirements without devaluing or cheapening each individual source art. I believe Brian VanCise is one of these people, and even within JKD and the Takamatsuden arts there are specialists in certain areas which is not really all that different.

Some beginners may have more of a problem with this than others, depending upon what they absorb. The modern approach to martial arts is to take what you need from each, you probably won't find an MMAist studying the Muay Thai kata-like routines, and if goshinjutsu is your focus as a taijutsu practitioner one may feel less inclined towards spending too much time on areas best suited to fighting in armour with swords and spears on a muddy battlefield. Some time obviously, but not lots.



Chris Parker said:


> I would suggest that, although you may wish you had started JKD much earlier, if you had (especially if you had started both together) then you wouldn't be able to get the benefits to the degree that you have here. Really, though, these are two generalist systems, which, to a great degree, can be a little counter-productive to train both in. I'd probably suggest that the Budo Taijutsu is your primary art, and if pressed that is what will come out, and the JKD has helped solidify that for you with it's drilling methods and approach. And that only happens when solid experience is gained in a system first.
> 
> If both systems are trained from the get-go, the most typical thing that will happen is one will slide, and in the end only one will be trained anyway.


 
I can't deny that as a nidan in taijutsu and a lowly red belt in JKD that BBT is my primary art and always will be because I will always be moving forwards with it so that my JKD will never catch up (and I'm not getting any younger at 41), and yes the drilling methods, sparring and approach are helping to bring my taijutsu to life, but I am also learning lots that is new and that I truly believe does not exist in the taijutsu currulum vitae. Escrima bears very little resemblance to hanbojutsu when you lay both sets of skills out for scrutiny for example.

I would love to tell the originator of this thread to just go for taijutsu, but the quality control and likelihood of him becoming a capable and aware functional martial artist with real kickass skills and no delusions of what real fights are like, is just not there any more in this art.

Getting punched in the head is Miso Soup for the soul!


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## Chris Parker (Jan 22, 2011)

ElfTengu said:


> It's our grandmaster who said it, in several books.


 
There;s also the rules associated with Gyokko Ryu there (Destroy the enemy, but spare his life.... etc). Could be where it comes from perhaps?



ElfTengu said:


> I guess I am coming to a conclusion along the lines of that there ARE no different systems, just lots of people trying to fit themselves into a collection of methods that may not all be suitable for them as an individual.[/qoute]
> 
> I've kinda come to the opposite conclusion, but then again I love getting into the differences between them, understanding why they exist and so on. What I have found, though, is that many people who feel that all martial arts are really the same are actually just looking at each new art they experience through the filter of their original art, and using it to recognise the aspects that the new arts give. In other words, they recognise their previous experience in the new system, but that is not the same as the arts being the same when it comes down to it.
> 
> ...


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## K-man (Jan 22, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Totally off topic but as you are all Aussies I'd thought I'd ask! I'm assuming that you are all away from the floods? It says on the news they are really bad so was hoping you and yours are all okay.


Thank you for you concern, Tez. Around Melbourne we have been drenched but not flooded. The worst areas and the loss of life were in Queensland. We have a huge area of Victoria underwater as well. I flew over the area in north west Victoria last weekend and the huge expanse of water is something that I hope we don't see for another 100 years. The flood water in Victoria would almost cover half of England and the floods up north covered an area about the combined area of France and Germany.


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## ElfTengu (Jan 26, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> I've kinda come to the opposite conclusion, but then again I love getting into the differences between them, understanding why they exist and so on. What I have found, though, is that many people who feel that all martial arts are really the same are actually just looking at each new art they experience through the filter of their original art, and using it to recognise the aspects that the new arts give. In other words, they recognise their previous experience in the new system, but that is not the same as the arts being the same when it comes down to it.
> 
> Realistically, what each system is trying to do is to to instill it's own methods of moving and behaving by repeating those behaviours, instilling on the unconscious mind that those actions are powerful, strong, useful etc. By training in two different systems (which has a different method of moving, although similarities can and often do exist) you are telling your unconscious that both are powerful, even though they are contradictory. That results in the unconscious not knowing which to believe as being powerful (and no, it won't pick both, it'll always pick what it feels is the best of any two options... which means that if one is demonstrated to be "stronger", whether through experience in class, in a real situation [the least likely, honestly], or just because it "matches" what has been experienced in movies), which means neither are going in in the way they are designed, resulting in usable skill being harder to gain, and under adrenaline-induced stress, leading to a "freeze" response. Alternately, if one system iss seen by your unconscious as powerful, then by elimination the second system will be seen as fairly redundant, meaning your training in it will largely be wasted time.
> 
> It can be related to painting in block colours. Let's represent the two systems (A and B) as colours, blue and red. Training in each system can be seen as painting in the colour each represents, so by training in one, you are painting in the one colour. However, if you try painting with both, you get a mixture, a purple mess. If you pick just one, though, you get the right colour pure on the canvas, as intended. If you use one for a while, and get it on accurately, then you can add some of the second one, and if you're good, you can create deliberate patches of purple, or just have red dots on the blue primary background. That is, of course, when you have trained in one art for a while (as you had), then branch out, rather than try both at once.


 
Good points, I also suppose that JKD's simplification ethic is wearing off on me, at least as far as the immediacy of goshinjutsu is concerned, a lifelong study of the finer points notwithstanding.

Some of the people involved in each of our nine arts of the past few centuries might argue that our nine arts do not belong together in one system any more than a modern-day practitioner mixing a bit of another art into his taijutsu. Taijutsu is a generic art after all. Are there really people out there who in the heat of real combat are able to use Gyokko Ryu techniques/principles with Kukishinden 'feeling' for example? 

I often wonder is the whole greater than the parts or vice versa or something else altogether? No doubt there were warriors who lived to a ripe old age through myriad encounters equipped with only 'one' of our nine arts, let alone nine, although our 33rd Soke was apparently badass enough!

It is not as though we are expected to make the switch like in an early kung fu movie where the hero and villain try one separate art after another, in a rock-paper-scissors effort to find the unexpected winning method. I've used the following quip a few times over the years, and it is one of my own, but you just wouldn't get a taijutsu fighter striking a pose and exclaiming "Now I will defeat you with my Gikan fists!".

To sum up, Takamatsuden taijutsu is more usable as one generic art than nine separate ones each with its own nuances. It is down to our Grandmaster and ourselves to extract the best aspects of each for personal survival purposes and to study the rest at leisure for decades thereafter. And if the generic art does not provide all the answers to 21st century 'problems' and another art appears to fill certain gaps and provide a strong likelihood of efficacy via effective training methodologies, pressure testing etc, then what is the harm?

I would hate to die from an 'if only' situation. I am finding less of those now, but never at a faster rate than before I took up JKD, and the Filipino aspects expecially.

But I am beginning to agree that it might be easier to get to grips with one art first, but I don't believe (according to  our mutual opinion of quality control) that taijutsu in one of the larger organisations is necessarily the way to go if people want goshinjutsu to be their primary area of study.




Chris Parker said:


> Ha, that is absolutely true! And I may steal it for future use....


 
Yes, I was quite pleased with that one, and then of course flagellated myself for allowing myself egotistical pleaure! Feel free to steal it.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Jan 28, 2011)

> you are over-extending your strikes, and you are using your hips to turn rather than your legs to generate power


yeah I can see inclass i reach out way to much on my strikes. then sensei parker spotted me and corrected me. it only takes someone to grab your arm when your of balance and reaching forword and pull you forward and your gone. nowdays i try to keep my back straight and everything compact and stable. if i need to get closser i try to use footwork instead of compromising my balance. I really believe in kinetic linking to generate alot of power but info on it is hard to find unless your a boxer. but I find jkd has alot of this so ive been looking at that to improve my striking technique


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## Supra Vijai (Jan 28, 2011)

Umm info on kinetic linking isn't that hard to find. Typed "Kinetic linking" into google and got 'About 1,850,000 results in (0.11 seconds)'

That being said, I may be mistaken but sounds to me like you've completely missed the point. How a boxer uses kinetic linking is different from JKD which is different from Krav which is different from Atemi in Aikido which is different from Ninpo Taijutsu and so on. No martial art is going to teach you to flail your arms weakly in a little girl style slap fight. Every system will have their own version of power generation and effective range/application. That doesn't mean though that you can start immediately mixing styles - at least not effectively. Your progress will be the one that ultimately struggles. Just some friendly thoughts from a fellow student, up to you whether you want to take it on board or not


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## Chris Parker (Jan 28, 2011)

Add to that that our entire body mechanics for striking is based on what you are refering to as Kinetic Linking... but really, if you're training in Ninjutsu, then the advise is to train in Ninjutsu. Particularly during the classes. Looking for other methods is frankly just stopping you from understanding the one I'm giving you, which will mean your ability to deliver a powerful strike will suffer, as Supra said.

Talk to me in class about the different methods if you don't understand the way we strike, I'm more than happy to take you through it as much as you need to.


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