# I think therefore I am.



## Kensai (Aug 9, 2006)

In any given SD scenario, regardless of art, is it better to consciously think about what you're doing while acting, planning your strategy shall we say? Or, is it better to not think, to simply be, and sow a whirlwind of destruction?

Does thinking slow you down, or does it make you an intelligent fighter if you're being attacked?

When I try and string together some of the more complex Wing Chun combo's, I can definately tell that I've slowed down, while my brain tries to process what it's doing, yet sometimes when I don't think, BAM! I just act, and things happen of there own accord. 

I'm interested in hearing your views and experience. I don't think that there's necessarily a right or wrong answer, let's hear what you've got to say. :asian: 

Kensai


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 9, 2006)

Great thread! 

I've been in situations where I acted immediately, and others where I've had time to think for just a little bit.  But overall, I'd have to say doing something right away is better than doing the perfect thing too late.  A

As always, situation dictates.

Jeff


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 9, 2006)

In real world sef defence situation thinking slows you way down.

As I was once told don't think, do. 

This is why we train so things become automatic.


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## King (Aug 9, 2006)

First I relax and then I act. Thinking comes after the fact when I'm reliving the moment in my head finding ways I could have done better. But thankfully evasion and prevention has been 100% effective for me.


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## Kensai (Aug 9, 2006)

Great answers gentlemen. Am in agreement with all that has been said. Especially yours Jeff, the situation will warrant the type of response provided, and accordingly, how much or little you think about it. Cheers guys.


P.S: King, are you a Leafs fan by any chance?


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## MJS (Aug 9, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> In any given SD scenario, regardless of art, is it better to consciously think about what you're doing while acting, planning your strategy shall we say? Or, is it better to not think, to simply be, and sow a whirlwind of destruction?
> 
> Does thinking slow you down, or does it make you an intelligent fighter if you're being attacked?
> 
> ...


 
If it has not yet escalated to a physical confrontation, I'd say it would probably be good to think before we speak.  Saying the right or wrong thing can ultimately have a pretty good effect on the outcome.  If its already to the physical point, IMHO, I feel that its better to react.  That is what our goal should be in our training, when we're working on techniques.  People at times, get too wrapped up in the technique itself, thinking that they're bound by the movements, when in fact, the tech. is or should be looked at as a foundation to build from.  We don't want to think, "Ok, here comes a punch at my face!!  Which one of my punch techs. am I going to do????"  

Mike


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## lll000000lll (Aug 9, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> In any given SD scenario, regardless of art, is it better to consciously think about what you're doing while acting, planning your strategy shall we say? Or, is it better to not think, to simply be, and sow a whirlwind of destruction?
> 
> Does thinking slow you down, or does it make you an intelligent fighter if you're being attacked?
> 
> ...


 
i think when training you should always be thinking of new things. but only in training. i believe that thinking in a real street fight actually slows you down, at least during stand up. usually when a spar i look for the moment of cognition in my opponents brain, and that is when i strike. i take pride if my ability to ready my opponent. other then my initial read i am a whirlwind.

on your back or on the ground i believe thinking is your best friend.
keeping your cool and coming up with a quick solution is definitely a mental thing.


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## Kensai (Aug 9, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> If it has not yet escalated to a physical confrontation, I'd say it would probably be good to think before we speak. Saying the right or wrong thing can ultimately have a pretty good effect on the outcome. If its already to the physical point, IMHO, I feel that its better to react. That is what our goal should be in our training, when we're working on techniques. People at times, get too wrapped up in the technique itself, thinking that they're bound by the movements, when in fact, the tech. is or should be looked at as a foundation to build from. We don't want to think, "Ok, here comes a punch at my face!! Which one of my punch techs. am I going to do????"
> 
> Mike


 
Interesting point Mike.

Turning this around. Would you ever consider it acceptable to "pre-empt" an attack? Instead of reacting, would you hit first?


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## Kensai (Aug 9, 2006)

lll000000lll said:
			
		

> i think when training you should always be thinking of new things. but only in training. i believe that thinking in a real street fight actually slows you down, at least during stand up. usually when a spar i look for the moment of cognition in my opponents brain, and that is when i strike. i take pride if my ability to ready my opponent. other then my initial read i am a whirlwind.
> 
> on your back or on the ground i believe thinking is your best friend.
> keeping your cool and coming up with a quick solution is definitely a mental thing.


 
Also a great post. I particularly like your point of watching for that flash of cognition, then going for it. 

I've dabbled in groundwork, and you're right, there are definately moments when I've thought about what I'm doing, and how I want to progress. A couple of times when (during a Judo groundfight) someone's been on top, and I've slid out to the side, and kicked their legs from under them. Obviously a basic technique, but surprisingly effective. Those that I used it on would become so engrossed in going for a strangle, then when their legs were pushed back, and I slid over and on top, while in control of their gi, you could tell they were thinking "huh?"... :uhyeah:  Do the basics well in those conditions.


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## Robert Lee (Aug 9, 2006)

After you have trained the delivery tools of your art or method to a point they are now a part of your actions you basicly see think do. In that order and it ends up just doing because you are more in tune with mind and body where the action now is  doing.  Just as walking no thought you just walk.


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## Shotochem (Aug 9, 2006)

lll000000lll said:
			
		

> on your back or on the ground i believe thinking is your best friend.
> keeping your cool and coming up with a quick solution is definitely a mental thing.


 
I agree 100%.  
If you don't use your head while on the ground you are toast.  

Standing up it is much quicker to react and not get hit than to think about it and get hit.  The first inital reaction is the most important.  Parry, block, dodge, not getting hit initally usually works out better in your favor.  Be safe then remove the threat.


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## Kensai (Aug 9, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> After you have trained the delivery tools of your art or method to a point they are now a part of your actions you basicly see think do. In that order and it ends up just doing because you are more in tune with mind and body where the action now is doing. Just as walking no thought you just walk.


 
In other words, through  repeated practice, it, the art you study becomes so ingrained, that cognitive thought is unnecessary? Or words to that effect?


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## Drac (Aug 9, 2006)

Speaking from an LEO standpoint I ONLY thing I think about is making sure my gun is secure..Then to quote *Kensai *"I sow a whilwind of destruction".


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## King (Aug 9, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> P.S: King, are you a Leafs fan by any chance?


 
I think by law we are suppose to love the Leafs. Saying otherwise means death by withdrawal of Canadian beer and alienation from bars.  Go Leafs!

Coming back to the topic a few months ago my boxing coach was attacked by a drunk guy. He stayed calm, bobbing and weaving out of harms way while trying to diffuse it with words: "yo guy calm down", "let's not do this", "ease up bro".  But the guy kept coming back and was aggrevated enough to attack other people on the street. So when he came back to my coach he stunned him with a counter punch. Then the drunk guy stopped and said "okay, okay let's stop". My coach said "hey man, you've been trying to kill me all night. Okay we're cool".

I guess I'm coming up to the point where if that was me I would have wailed on him as soon as the first attack came. Being the better man he used his training to prevent injury to himself, others and managed to diffuse the situation with the proper amount of violence.


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 9, 2006)

King said:
			
		

> I think by law we are suppose to love the Leafs. Saying otherwise means death by withdrawal of Canadian beer and alienation from bars.  Go Leafs!



Aren't you also required to be a Rush fan?:idunno:


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## King (Aug 9, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> Aren't you also required to be a Rush fan?:idunno:


 
lol alas Rush has faded into obscurity. Haven't even heard them mentioned for over 16 years. I honestly had to google them to remind me who they were.


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## Kensai (Aug 9, 2006)

King said:
			
		

> I think by law we are suppose to love the Leafs. Saying otherwise means death by withdrawal of Canadian beer and alienation from bars.  Go Leafs!
> 
> Coming back to the topic a few months ago my boxing coach was attacked by a drunk guy. He stayed calm, bobbing and weaving out of harms way while trying to diffuse it with words: "yo guy calm down", "let's not do this", "ease up bro". But the guy kept coming back and was aggrevated enough to attack other people on the street. So when he came back to my coach he stunned him with a counter punch. Then the drunk guy stopped and said "okay, okay let's stop". My coach said "hey man, you've been trying to kill me all night. Okay we're cool".
> 
> I guess I'm coming up to the point where if that was me I would have wailed on him as soon as the first attack came. Being the better man he used his training to prevent injury to himself, others and managed to diffuse the situation with the proper amount of violence.



Think that level of calmness perhaps comes through the confidence of having trained in any art, for a while. Good to see it ended (relatively) happily.

On a side note, GO LEAFS GO!! Let's hear it for Raycroft and Peca. Woot!! :asian:


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## MJS (Aug 9, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> Interesting point Mike.
> 
> Turning this around. Would you ever consider it acceptable to "pre-empt" an attack? Instead of reacting, would you hit first?


 
Yes, I'm a big believer of the pre emptive strike! 

Mike


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## Shaolinwind (Aug 10, 2006)

lll000000lll said:
			
		

> i believe that thinking in a real street fight actually slows you down


 
Or in other words.. "I think, therefore I am.. About to get my butt kicked." ?


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## Kensai (Aug 10, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Yes, I'm a big believer of the pre emptive strike!
> 
> Mike


 
Me too. Great minds eh....?


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## Drac (Aug 10, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Yes, I'm a big believer of the pre emptive strike!
> 
> Mike


 


			
				Kensai said:
			
		

> Me to. Great mind eh...?


 
I am also a member of the pre emrtive strike club..I see that I'm in good company..


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## Kensai (Aug 10, 2006)

Drac said:
			
		

> I am also a member of the pre emrtive strike club..I see that I'm in good company..


 
Absolutely. I see no problem in it. Not at all. If you think you're in danger, you probably are. Give it a chance to de-escalate, if not, hit first, ask questions later. Or vanish.


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## Garth Barnard (Aug 10, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> Absolutely. I see no problem in it. Not at all. If you think you're in danger, you probably are. Give it a chance to de-escalate, if not, hit first, ask questions later. Or vanish.


Yup, that's the way I do things too.

Take care,

Garth.


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## Shaolinwind (Aug 10, 2006)

Garth Barnard said:
			
		

> Yup, that's the way I do things too.
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Garth.


 
Doesn't that bear rather stiff penalties where you live?  I've been under the impression that the laws don't leave much room for self defense there..  I can see hitting first being an even bigger, nastier can of worms to open.


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## Kensai (Aug 10, 2006)

Shaolinwind said:
			
		

> Doesn't that bear rather stiff penalties where you live? I've been under the impression that the laws don't leave much room for self defense there.. I can see hitting first being an even bigger, nastier can of worms to open.


 
A valid perception mate, but not strictly accurate. True we aren't allowed to carry guns in any form, but there remains a different mind set between the British/European and US in that regard anyway. See below:



> A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large.


See here for the rest of the site:
http://www.bsdgb.co.uk/law.htm

So, in some ways you're right mate, however, if you were able to prove that you were in mortal danger "unless" you pre-empted, then it's open to suggestion. Besides, I'm of the opinion that you don't get into trouble for your actions so much, but more for what you say to the police afterwards. If you vanish having put someone down, is it reasonable to assume that you may have "gotten away with it"? Who knows.

Again, valid point. :asian:


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## Garth Barnard (Aug 11, 2006)

Shaolinwind said:
			
		

> Doesn't that bear rather stiff penalties where you live? I've been under the impression that the laws don't leave much room for self defense there.. I can see hitting first being an even bigger, nastier can of worms to open.


I really don't care about the law in an SD situation.  That doesn't mean that I'm not a law abiding citizen though.

What I mean by that is; I know I would do my utmost to prevent a physical confrontation, however, if I I felt that my health and safety was at risk, bearing in mind that I am well within my rights to act pre-emtively, then I will do so with no regard to the law. If I act pre-emptively I will do so with commitment and aggression, there are no prizes for second place on the street.

It is my view that if you have the thought of law (and the consequences of your actions) on your mind at the TIME of acting, then your committment (effectiveness) WILL be effected.  Personally, I only worry about the law when I'm walking away from an unconscious aggressor, and not a moment before.

Take care,

Garth.


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## Drac (Aug 11, 2006)

Garth Barnard said:
			
		

> What I mean by that is; I know I would do my utmost to prevent a physical confrontation, however, if I I felt that my health and safety was at risk, bearing in mind that I am well within my rights to act pre-emtively, then I will do so with no regard to the law. If I act pre-emptively I will do so with commitment and aggression, there are no prizes for second place on the street


 
You would be surprised how many time I've told people who were worried about a physical assault after being threatened to "Do what ya gotta do." Maybe not the brightest thing for a cop to tell someone but NOBODY should becaome a punching bag because the fear legal reprisials...


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## Kensai (Aug 11, 2006)

Drac said:
			
		

> You would be surprised how many time I've told people who were worried about a physical assault after being threatened to "Do what ya gotta do." Maybe not the brightest thing for a cop to tell someone but NOBODY should becaome a punching bag because the fear legal reprisials...


 
On the contrary my friend, that would be most refreshing. Kudos for having the honesty and decency to do that. :asian: 

Garth, I quite agree mate. My thoughts exactly.


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