# The Bystander Effect



## Jonathan Randall (Mar 23, 2007)

Be aware of this dangerous (to you and others) phenomenon:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

The *bystander effect* (also known as *bystander apathy* or *bystander intervention*) is a psychological phenomenon in which someone is less likely to intervene in an emergency situation when others are present than when he or she is alone.
*Contents*

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<LI class=toclevel-1>1 Overview <LI class=toclevel-1>2 See also <LI class=toclevel-1>3 References 
4 External links
//http://martialtalk.com/forum/
*[edit] Overview*

Solitary individuals will typically intervene if another person is in need of help: this is known as bystander intervention. However, researchers were surprised to find that help is less likely to be given if more people are present. In some situations, a large group of bystanders may fail to help a person who obviously needs help. An example which shocked many people is the Kitty Genovese case. Kitty Genovese was stabbed to death in 1964 by a serial rapist and murderer. The murder took place over a period of about thirty minutes, after which it was reported that dozens of alleged "witnesses" failed to help the victim. For this reason, the name *Genovese syndrome* or *Genovese effect* was used to describe the phenomenon at the time. The death of Deletha Word in 1995 after witnesses failed to thwart her attackers, as well as the James Bulger murder case, may have been other well-publicized cases of the effect.
A 1968 study by John Darley and Bibb Latane first demonstrated the bystander effect in the laboratory. They ran some simple studies such as the following: A subject is placed alone in a room and is told he can communicate with other subjects through an intercom. In reality, he is just listening to an audio recording and is told his microphone will be off until it is his turn to speak. During the recording, one subject suddenly pretends he is having a seizure. The study found that how long the subject waits before alerting the experimenter varies directly with the perceived number of other subjects. In some cases, the subject never told the experimenter.
A common explanation of this phenomenon is that, with others present, observers all assume that someone else is going to intervene and so they each individually refrain from doing so. This is an example of how diffusion of responsibility leads to social loafing. People may also assume that other bystanders may be more qualified to help, such as being a doctor or police officer, and their intervention would thus be unneeded. People may also fear "losing face" in front of the other bystanders, being superseded by a "superior" helper, or offering unwanted assistance. Another explanation is that bystanders monitor the reactions of other people in an emergency situation to see if others think that it is necessary to intervene. Since others are doing exactly the same, everyone concludes from the inaction of others that other people do not think that help is needed. This is an example of pluralistic ignorance and social proof. An alternative to explanations of rational motivation is that emotional cues to action can be as powerful as rational ones, and the presence of a group of inactive others is a pre-rational emotional cue to inaction that must be overcome.
To counter the bystander effect when you are the victim, a studied recommendation is to pick a specific person in the crowd to appeal to for help rather than appealing to the larger group generally. This places all responsibility on that specific person instead of allowing it to diffuse. Furthermore, pluralistic ignorance is countered by the implication that all bystanders are indeed interested in helping, and social proof kicks in when one or more of the crowd steps in to assist.


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## KenpoTex (Mar 23, 2007)

good post...important information stuff to understand.



> To counter the bystander effect when you are the victim, a studied recommendation is to pick a specific person in the crowd to appeal to for help rather than appealing to the larger group generally. This places all responsibility on that specific person instead of allowing it to diffuse.


  I was going to point this out if the article hadn't covered it.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Mar 23, 2007)

One thing I've noticed regarding the bystander effect is this, once you're aware and understand it, it makes you more likely to personally take action.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 23, 2007)

OMG, something on Wikipedia that seems to be truthful *and* interesting/thought provoking :faints:.

Sorry, couldn't resist :O.  It is indeed an interesting 'effect' and the text seems to cover most of the reasons I would expect.  

Nowadays of course, I reckon you could add 'fear of legal action' as one reason why people wont stop and help each other ... pauses to push soapbox a bit further away, just in case a rantathon springs upon me .


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## Shaderon (Mar 23, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Nowadays of course, I reckon you could add 'fear of legal action' as one reason why people wont stop and help each other ... pauses to push soapbox a bit further away, just in case a rantathon springs upon me .


 
*Pushes the soapbox back to you*  Actually you are right Sukerkin, a fear of legal action is a huge fear.   Can I just point out something that my First Aid instructor said to me on my last training though?   

There is no known case (in the UK at least) where a judge or magistrate has deemed a first aider at fault for assault or negligence when they have tried to help someone.   If they did, it would follow for sure, that there would be a HUGE downstepping of first aiders all over the place, no one would want to help for fear of prosecution.   I think the same would follow to some degree with stepping in to help with an assult, if you are helping save a life and are using caution not to cause undue harm, then then the judge or magistrate that found you guilty of assault would be treading a dangerous road with publicity.   Yes I know that some may not understand your actions and say you used more force than necessary, but I feel it would be a mistake on thier part in most cases.

*Hides waiting for rants*


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## Kacey (Mar 23, 2007)

Something I would like to add is that this effect can be totally different if one or more of the bystanders know the victim.  I was rear-ended near the school I work at recently, and the only people who stopped were two of my co-workers who saw me and stopped to see if I was okay; from the expressions and reactions of others who saw the accident or saw me standing by my newly-smashed car, I was an impediment to their entry onto the freeway (I was hit in the on-ramp) and not much else.  It is much easier to get involved with someone you know - however casually - than it is to get involved with a stranger; too many people who have attempted to help strangers have been rebuffed by the _victim_ - another piece of the puzzle when attempting to understand this phenomenon.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 23, 2007)

Shaderon said:


> *Pushes the soapbox back to you*   <snip cogent arguments> *Hides waiting for rants*


 
ROFL - *Shaderon*, don't tempt me with this one !  

Let this cup passeth from my lips, friend, for otherwise I shall become incensed with righteous fury at the idiocy of 'legislative culture' and all shall be besmirched with froth as the rantathon takes hold verkill: :lol:.


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## Carol (Mar 23, 2007)

Fear of legal action is a very legitimate fear.  Here in the US, Good Samaritan laws vary widely from state to state.  Some states offer some protection against a Good Samaritan trying too come to the aid of another person.

Other states, including California as well as my own, Good Samaritan laws only apply to first-responders (paramedics, fire fighters, etc.)  Bystanders that try to do the right thing can, and do, get sued.  And yep, sometimes these suits are scams.

I have no issue with being quick to call 911 in order to get the first repsponders on the scene, but I'm a bit slower to physically intervene.


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## Laurentkd (Mar 23, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Fear of legal action is a very legitimate fear. Here in the US, Good Samaritan laws vary widely from state to state. Some states offer some protection against a Good Samaritan trying too come to the aid of another person.
> 
> Other states, including California as well as my own, Good Samaritan laws only apply to first-responders (paramedics, fire fighters, etc.) Bystanders that try to do the right thing can, and do, get sued. And yep, sometimes these suits are scams.
> 
> I have no issue with being quick to call 911 in order to get the first repsponders on the scene, but I'm a bit slower to physically intervene.


 

WOW!! I am aware of the Good Samaritan laws in Missouri and Kansas, but I had no idea that Caliand Mass were as you stated.  That would be pretty intimidating!  
You make an excellent point though, anyone can call 911.  And (at least in MO and KS) even if someone refuses your help you can still call 911.


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## Eternal White Belt (Mar 24, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Fear of legal action is a very legitimate fear. I have no issue with being quick to call 911 in order to get the first repsponders on the scene, but I'm a bit slower to physically intervene.


 
Not to mention the fact that about 95% of the frivolous lawsuits _in the world_ are filed in the United States.


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## Jonathan Randall (Mar 24, 2007)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> One thing I've noticed regarding the bystander effect is this, once you're aware and understand it, it makes you more likely to personally take action.


 
So true! Good point.


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## Jonathan Randall (Mar 24, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Fear of legal action is a very legitimate fear. Here in the US, Good Samaritan laws vary widely from state to state. Some states offer some protection against a Good Samaritan trying too come to the aid of another person.
> 
> Other states, including California as well as my own, Good Samaritan laws only apply to first-responders (paramedics, fire fighters, etc.) Bystanders that try to do the right thing can, and do, get sued. And yep, sometimes these suits are scams.
> 
> I have no issue with being quick to call 911 in order to get the first repsponders on the scene, but I'm a bit slower to physically intervene.


 
I don't blame you whatsoever. Your Cell call to 911 is the most important thing - getting yourself injured or killed in a perhaps futile attempt to help others is not.


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## theletch1 (Mar 24, 2007)

Jonathan Randall said:


> I don't blame you whatsoever. Your Cell call to 911 is the most important thing - getting yourself injured or killed in a perhaps futile attempt to help others is not.


Call 911 or make sure someone is in the process of calling THEN take physical action if there  is time to do so.  Obviously there will be times when action is needed at a speed where 911 can't be called till after action.  I've been yelled at by family for taking action to help others because I put myself at risk while others stood by and did nothing.  That's just who I am.  Example of the bystander syndrome...

1994, Roanoke Virginia.  I was home on leave from the military and went to the local mall with my first wife.  As we were walking to the door of the mall a we noticed several people pointing at a nearby car.  As we came abreast of that group flames shot from under the hood of a car in the lot.  I noticed that the woman in the driver seat was sort of flailing about somewhat.  Her seatbelt had jammed as she tried to pull it off and she had panicked.  The group of bystanders there treated the situation like it was a spectator sport.  Without thinking about what the potential consequences were I ran to the car, banged on the window to get the womans attention, had her unlock the door so that I could open it.  Once the door was open I leaned in, unjammed the seat belt and helped the woman out.  She was unhurt except for some slight smoke inhalation.  Some in the group commented that I was stupid (not exactly in those words) for getting involved at my own risk.   Her story was that she was traveling and had had some car trouble and just gotten it out of the shop earlier in the day.  The car was a total loss, most everything the girl owned was in that car but she was alright.  Soon as the first responders got there I just faded out of sight and don't even know her name.  My point with this is that folks didn't just stand by and do nothing...they stood by and enjoyed the show.


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## MA-Caver (Mar 24, 2007)

A couple of times I happened upon a car-crash that just occurred. Both times I got right in and helped out best as I could, directing people to call 911, securing the scene, getting somebody else to come and help. At the time I didn't give a thought or a damn about the "legal ramifications or consenquences", those people needed immediate help dammit and since I had the first-aid/first-responder training I wasn't going to just stand around and wait for help to arrive. 
When the EMS and LEO's did arrive then I faded back into the crowd and essentially disappeared. At least if any legal b.s. comes up they'd be hard pressed to find me. 
Another time I was driving down a residential street and saw thick black smoke coming out from a car in a driveway. I pulled over immediately and went up to the house and pounded on the door hard. The guy answered the door quick enough alright and before he could say anything I told him that his car was on fire and to call 911. He took a quick look and "oh-****!" and ran back into to make the call. A small business across the street had two guys come running out with a small fire-extinguisher and they were ABOUT to do something stupid... try opening up the hood of the car to put out the flames that were now coming out from all around the front end. I stopped them and said just back off... since it was an engine fire the risk of a gas-tank explosion was minimal, but opening up the hood would've opened up a whole new can of worms to be sure. Fire-trucks arrived quick enough (being literally just around the corner) and quenched the blaze. 

I wasn't trying to put on a mask and hum the William Tell Overture or anything like that, it just felt it was my *civil and human responsiblity *to help out where I can until the "pros" arrive. 
If it were the case of an assault/rape I'd probably wade right in as well. Dangerous as hell to be sure but again, dammit those people need help! Isn't that what we're all here for? To help one another? 

I think another cause of the bystander affect along with legal scares is the feeling of "what can I do?" and "omigod that could be me!" People do get morbidly fascinated when seeing something like a crime or an accident happening right in front of them and without commerical interupptions. They go into a dazed type of shock, the surrealness of it. They also have expectations of someone coming in and doing something. 

I agree with this statement from the article as well... 


> A common explanation of this phenomenon is that, with others present, observers all assume that someone else is going to intervene and so they each individually refrain from doing so. This is an example of how diffusion of responsibility leads to social loafing. People may also assume that other bystanders may be more qualified to help, such as being a doctor or police officer, and their intervention would thus be unneeded. People may also fear "losing face" in front of the other bystanders, being superseded by a "superior" helper, or offering unwanted assistance


I've had on other accident scenes had the "superior helper" come in and either attempt to take over or actually do so. A couple of quick direct questions and just generally cooperating helps out. As far as the rejection of offered assistance that is a clue that the person is "trying to be" a hero and may not actually know what they're doing, just copying something they saw on TV/Movie. In my experience a real (off-duty) EMS/LEO would welcome any assistance until the sirens can be heard approaching. Ego should be flying far and away at that point. I'm not going to worry about losing my face... it ain't going no where.  

Trained LEOs and EMS folks (off duty) are probably more likely to do this wading into the thick of it to help out than the average joe. Their minds are conditioned (I think) through training and actual (work) experience to overcome the shock-value of what's happening and take action. 
They're the sheepdogs of our world. :asian:


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 24, 2007)

> Trained LEOs and EMS folks (off duty) are probably more likely to do this wading into the thick of it to help out than the average joe.


 
this I agree on they are used to responding without much thought when they see something that needs doing.
As for jumping into any situation where you see someone being beaten if you jump in are you sure you are not helping the bad guy (maybe he just raped someone)
If it is a stabbing that might be a different thing to get involved in IF you are sure you will not get stabbed yourself


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## jks9199 (Mar 24, 2007)

theletch1 said:


> Call 911 or make sure someone is in the process of calling THEN take physical action if there  is time to do so.  Obviously there will be times when action is needed at a speed where 911 can't be called till after action.  I've been yelled at by family for taking action to help others because I put myself at risk while others stood by and did nothing.  That's just who I am.  Example of the bystander syndrome...
> 
> 1994, Roanoke Virginia.  I was home on leave from the military and went to the local mall with my first wife.  As we were walking to the door of the mall a we noticed several people pointing at a nearby car.  As we came abreast of that group flames shot from under the hood of a car in the lot.  I noticed that the woman in the driver seat was sort of flailing about somewhat.  Her seatbelt had jammed as she tried to pull it off and she had panicked.  The group of bystanders there treated the situation like it was a spectator sport.  Without thinking about what the potential consequences were I ran to the car, banged on the window to get the womans attention, had her unlock the door so that I could open it.  Once the door was open I leaned in, unjammed the seat belt and helped the woman out.  She was unhurt except for some slight smoke inhalation.  Some in the group commented that I was stupid (not exactly in those words) for getting involved at my own risk.   Her story was that she was traveling and had had some car trouble and just gotten it out of the shop earlier in the day.  The car was a total loss, most everything the girl owned was in that car but she was alright.  Soon as the first responders got there I just faded out of sight and don't even know her name.  My point with this is that folks didn't just stand by and do nothing...they stood by and enjoyed the show.



If there's no immediate risk to someone, I strongly encourage everyone to leave the cop stuff (grabbing bad guys, for example) to cops or other trained people, like store/private security, and the firefighter/medic stuff to the fire & rescue department.  (No -- I'm not getting into what private security is qualified for... some are good, some are bad, and some are downright scary.)  Obviously, there's no easy line for when you can/can't/should/shouldn't be directly involved; some fires can safely be extinguished with a home ABC-type extinguisher or even just a garden hose, and some criminals will meekly submit to any show of authority, including a "Stay there; I've called the cops!"  Try to use good judgement...  But get that call made first!  Learn both the emergency and non-emergency numbers for your area, and places (like work) where you spend a lot of time.

If someone's in immediate danger -- either make that call yourself (a 911 "open line" where nobody's talking WILL get a police response), or direct a specific person to do so.  Then, if you can do so with reasonable safety, take action.  Theletch1 did a great job above...  Just one side note.  Car crash victims shouldn't be moved from the car UNLESS there's an imminent danger of more serious harm (like the fire above) by leaving them in the car.  Cars, despite what you see on tv, rarely explode dramatically. 




MA-Caver said:


> A couple of times I happened upon a car-crash that just occurred. Both times I got right in and helped out best as I could, directing people to call 911, securing the scene, getting somebody else to come and help. At the time I didn't give a thought or a damn about the "legal ramifications or consenquences", those people needed immediate help dammit and since I had the first-aid/first-responder training I wasn't going to just stand around and wait for help to arrive.
> When the EMS and LEO's did arrive then I faded back into the crowd and essentially disappeared. At least if any legal b.s. comes up they'd be hard pressed to find me.



Please, if you've taken action or actually witnessed something, don't disappear.  You may have information that is essential to successful investigation of the incident.  You chose to get involved; stay involved until you're not needed anymore.


> Another time I was driving down a residential street and saw thick black smoke coming out from a car in a driveway. I pulled over immediately and went up to the house and pounded on the door hard. The guy answered the door quick enough alright and before he could say anything I told him that his car was on fire and to call 911. He took a quick look and "oh-****!" and ran back into to make the call. A small business across the street had two guys come running out with a small fire-extinguisher and they were ABOUT to do something stupid... try opening up the hood of the car to put out the flames that were now coming out from all around the front end. I stopped them and said just back off... since it was an engine fire the risk of a gas-tank explosion was minimal, but opening up the hood would've opened up a whole new can of worms to be sure. Fire-trucks arrived quick enough (being literally just around the corner) and quenched the blaze.



Great judgment; opening the hood would have provided even more oxygen to the fire...



> I wasn't trying to put on a mask and hum the William Tell Overture or anything like that, it just felt it was my *civil and human responsiblity *to help out where I can until the "pros" arrive.
> If it were the case of an assault/rape I'd probably wade right in as well. Dangerous as hell to be sure but again, dammit those people need help! Isn't that what we're all here for? To help one another?



I agree; when it comes to protecting another from harm, we have a responsibility to act within the scope of our own training, knowledge and ability, keeping in mind our own safety.  The last thing we want is to add victims...  In HAZMAT/WMD type situations, first responders now are taught to pause, assess the scene, and if everyone is dropping like flies -- RUN somewhere upwind, and call for help.  The same should apply to everyone else; if by trying to help, you're only going to add another victim, or endanger those entrusted to your care (my actions were I with my 1-year old neice or wife are totally different than if I were out at dinner with my partners!) -- limit your actions to getting help started, and being a good witness.




> Trained LEOs and EMS folks (off duty) are probably more likely to do this wading into the thick of it to help out than the average joe. Their minds are conditioned (I think) through training and actual (work) experience to overcome the shock-value of what's happening and take action.
> They're the sheepdogs of our world. :asian:



Training is part of it... but you don't seek those jobs unless you feel the urge to go to the danger, instead of freezing or running.  When you add in experience (most rookies freeze up for a moment the first time they have to fight someone, despite training and inclination) and realistic mental/physical rehearsal, you're primed to act.  I described it recently as "active reaction" versus more "passive reaction" where you have to figure out what to do when you see something happening.



tshadowchaser said:


> this I agree on they are used to responding without much thought when they see something that needs doing.
> As for jumping into any situation where you see someone being beaten if you jump in are you sure you are not helping the bad guy (maybe he just raped someone)
> If it is a stabbing that might be a different thing to get involved in IF you are sure you will not get stabbed yourself



I agree; as said above -- the first thing is to make sure that by getting directly involved (NOTHING EVER SHOULD PREVENT SUMMONING APPROPRIATE AID FROM A POSITION OF REASONABLE SAFETY; we don't care if we get 10 calls about something.  We hate when something happens and no one calls!), you're not going to become a victim yourself!


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## MA-Caver (Mar 25, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> If there's no immediate risk to someone, I strongly encourage everyone to leave the cop stuff (grabbing bad guys, for example) to cops or other trained people, like store/private security, and the firefighter/medic stuff to the fire & rescue department.  (No -- I'm not getting into what private security is qualified for... some are good, some are bad, and some are downright scary.)  Obviously, there's no easy line for when you can/can't/should/shouldn't be directly involved; some fires can safely be extinguished with a home ABC-type extinguisher or even just a garden hose, and some criminals will meekly submit to any show of authority, including a "Stay there; I've called the cops!"  Try to use good judgement...  But get that call made first!  Learn both the emergency and non-emergency numbers for your area, and places (like work) where you spend a lot of time.


Securing the scene and calling 911 was at the forefront of my first responder training. Do those two things first then administer first aid when possible. If the folks are and were still in the car I leave/left them in there and tried  to keep them calm until the EMS got there. I checked them for ABC and BBC and found no immediate danger. So had them just sit there and wait. Couple of them wanted to get out... I said: "You _want to screw up your insurance claim?_ Then stay where you are until the paramedics tell you to get out or whatever!" They *stayed* put.  :uhyeah: Yep appealing to the base nature of the working individual can get great results. 



jks9199 said:


> If someone's in immediate danger -- either make that call yourself (a 911 "open line" where nobody's talking WILL get a police response), or direct a specific person to do so.  Then, if you can do so with reasonable safety, take action.  Theletch1 did a great job above...  Just one side note.  Car crash victims shouldn't be moved from the car UNLESS there's an imminent danger of more serious harm (like the fire above) by leaving them in the car.  Cars, despite what you see on tv, rarely explode dramatically.


 This is true, even if gas is leaking there still has to be an ignition source and if there is gas leaking (kneel down and look under the car where the tank is supposed to be) then look around and get whatever idiots that are smoking to get the hell away or put out their butts. If there's a other type of igniton source, i.e. then make a judgement call. I recall that spraying the ABC extinguishers on the leaking gas helps cut down on the fumes (which is what makes gas go whoomph!) should there be a chance that the (fumes) would ignite. A fire-fighter friend of mine told me that... was he right? 
I've seen several cars go up in flames before and have yet to see the kaboom-huge fireball effect as in the movies/tv. I've seen the whoomph and such but as you said... nothing is ever as dramatic as it is in the fictional media. 



jks9199 said:


> Please, if you've taken action or actually witnessed something, don't disappear.  You may have information that is essential to successful investigation of the incident.  You chose to get involved; stay involved until you're not needed anymore.


Well I didn't actually witness the accidents... heard the squeal of tires and the crunch of metal then turned around and saw the two vehicles as they were, so I wouldn't have been much help as to say "how it happened..." same line of thinking of my helping out until the EMS arrived... all I did was basically stablized the situation/injured until the EMS got there and let them  apply their far more capable hands to the vics, by getting out of their way. Anything I would have said wouldn't have been any help... IMO. No, at the time of the accidents it wouldn't have been a good idea for the LEO's to find out my name and run a "routine-check"... having warrants-n-all. *Now*that's not a problem  



jks9199 said:


> Great judgment; opening the hood would have provided even more oxygen to the fire...


 Yeah, true. Yet those bozos were still trying to do it. Darwin Award candidates to be sure. Luckily I was able to keep them distracted with my "don't open the hood ya morons!" yells when the firetrucks arrived... they backed off. 



jks9199 said:


> I agree; when it comes to protecting another from harm, we have a responsibility to act within the scope of our own training, knowledge and ability, keeping in mind our own safety.  The last thing we want is to add victims...  In HAZMAT/WMD type situations, first responders now are taught to pause, assess the scene, and if everyone is dropping like flies -- RUN somewhere upwind, and call for help.  The same should apply to everyone else; if by trying to help, you're only going to add another victim, or endanger those entrusted to your care (my actions were I with my 1-year old neice or wife are totally different than if I were out at dinner with my partners!) -- limit your actions to getting help started, and being a good witness.






jks9199 said:


> I agree; as said above -- the first thing is to make sure that by getting directly involved (*NOTHING EVER SHOULD PREVENT SUMMONING APPROPRIATE AID FROM A POSITION OF REASONABLE SAFETY;* we don't care if we get 10 calls about something.  We hate when something happens and no one calls!), you're not going to become a victim yourself!


 Uhh, yeah of course  That's why it's always good to do the 911 thing (making shure they got the info/location and then if you can... help out to the least amount of danger to yourself.


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## jks9199 (Mar 25, 2007)

MA-Caver said:


> Well I didn't actually witness the accidents... heard the squeal of tires and the crunch of metal then turned around and saw the two vehicles as they were, so I wouldn't have been much help as to say "how it happened..." same line of thinking of my helping out until the EMS arrived... all I did was basically stablized the situation/injured until the EMS got there and let them  apply their far more capable hands to the vics, by getting out of their way. Anything I would have said wouldn't have been any help... IMO. No, at the time of the accidents it wouldn't have been a good idea for the LEO's to find out my name and run a "routine-check"... having warrants-n-all. *Now*that's not a problem



Here's a simple exampe of how you could have specific, vital knowledge.  Let's say that the crash was alcohol related, and someone was badly injured.  You, in the classic pattern, "heard the bang, and turned and saw..."  Here's what you saw that may not still be present...  You saw the cars assuming their positions of final rest.  BEFORE the "evidence eradication team" took their hardware to the cars, and moved the top right off of one of them, and shoved the other car out of the road.  You saw who was at the wheel before they got into the ambulance.  (People lie...)  You may know whether seat belts were on or off...  whether the fire department or the crash blew the airbags...  And lots more.  In the case of a violent attack -- you heard the spontaneous statements made by the victim.  Those aren't recreatable -- and they can be vitally important, before well meaning "helpers" muddle the victim's memory.

As to the issue of warrants...  I can't speak for any other cop, but I can say that if you're helping me -- I'm going to try to help you as far as I reasonably can.  I don't necessarily run every witness through NCIC, for example...


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## MA-Caver (Mar 26, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> As to the issue of warrants...  I can't speak for any other cop, but I can say that if you're helping me -- I'm going to try to help you as far as I reasonably can.  I don't necessarily run every witness through NCIC, for example...



Yeah well that's good to know.. but that's you... Some cops can be very anal about that sort of thing. Also some cops take the Javert approach to their jobs. 

Either way I'll do better next time around.


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## jks9199 (Mar 26, 2007)

MA-Caver said:


> Yeah well that's good to know.. but that's you... Some cops can be very anal about that sort of thing. Also some cops take the Javert approach to their jobs.
> 
> Either way I'll do better next time around.


It's real simple.  Once I run someone, I don't have a lot of choice.  If I know there's a warrant, and there's extradition for it when relevant, I MUST arrest you.  I can still do so while respecting your dignity, and what I say to the magistrate can often have a major influence on whether and what sort of bond you get...  

If you're not giving me a reason to run you, and you're helping me... I'm not looking to mess up either of our days.  

But... I gotta add one other bit of advice...  I can't encourage anyone strongly enough to AVOID situations that get you warrants.  Go to court, if you have to.  If you can't pay fines, often the courts will work with you on a payment plan.  If you've got folks that you can't get along with... Avoid them.  And if you know you've got a warrant out on you, turn yourself in and get it done with.  It can only make your life easier!


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## kik (Apr 4, 2007)

In Illinois we have what is called "the good samaritain law" If you find someone in trouble Weather it be from getting mugged to someone having a heart attack. You as the aide giver cannot be punished or sued by the attacker or in the case of preforming CPR the person you were trying to save. Obviously in the case of seeing someone commit a burglary or something of that nature you do not attempt to stop them, you call 911 but in the event that that someone is being brutally harmed, you may step in and defend the victim using as much force that is necessary to insure that the victin is safe. If you are preforming CPR on a victim then you may do whatever is necessary to insure the body has blood flow and oxygen to the brain. So if you break ribs in the process you cannot be sued.


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