# Frauds,Fakes,Conman,Scam artists



## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 17, 2009)

> It is not our mission to out and expose frauds or decide who "sucks". Such discussions rarely lead anywhere other than to headaches, and lawsuits.


 
I understand there is a no Fraudbusting policy here on Martialtalk.

But if someone claims something that is not true,trying to scam people out of their money and other things why if we can provide evidence to these things can the general public not be allowed to be aware of it?


----------



## Sukerkin (Mar 17, 2009)

Hi *JCA*, this is not really the right forum to ask or address such a question.  

I would suggest that a better way to put your query forward is to actually e-mail or PM either *Bob Hubbard* or one of the senior members of Staff.

There lies the fountain from which board policy springs and from which also answers will flow.


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 17, 2009)

The "horror stories" forum seems to have a few threads of this sort. So it appears there is at least some leeway in these issues.


----------



## Sukerkin (Mar 17, 2009)

A valid point, *Angel*.  

It is indeed the case that in that forum the tales of blatantly clear nigh-on-if-not-actually criminal arts and artists have been told.

Generally, tho', I believe that those stories are of a different ilk to what *JCA* is alluding to.


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 17, 2009)

See the MT Rules, at 1.10.3, and 4.16.1 and 4.16.2 (pasted below for your convenience):
*1.10.3 No Individual Bashing / Fraud Busting. *

It is not our mission to out and expose frauds or decide who "sucks". Such discussions rarely lead anywhere other than to headaches, and lawsuits.

and

*4.16.1 Fraud Busting*

Due to its nature, this forum encourages the asking and answering of questions. Many times one member will have questions and concerns about the history, skills, lineage, or paperwork of another member. In other cases, things may be stated on a webpage, flyer or article relating to a member that raises some questions. Sometimes, comments will have been made elsewhere and those issues carried over to MartialTalk.

MartialTalk and its staff encourage the polite and professional search for knowledge. Questions and concerns may be brought up, with the understanding that the other party is under no requirement to answer. 

Most questions may be raised within the forums dedicated to a particular art or area of interest. For example, Kenpo Lineage questions in the Kenpo forum, are fine. Others of a more serious note, are to be limited to the &#8220;The Great Debate&#8221; forum.

Excessive &#8220;Inquisitor-style" questioning is not allowed and will be subject to administrative action. If you have had to ask a question more than 3 times, you are most likely running the risk of &#8220;excessive&#8217;.

In addition, &#8220;Hot Pursuit&#8221; actions will not be tolerated. The &#8220;Hot Pursuit&#8221; is defined as asking the same or similar questions in multiple threads and / or forums.

Members who become &#8216;obsessed&#8221;, &#8216;inquisitors&#8217; or &#8216;interrogators&#8217; will be subject to administrative action. Members who are involved in excessive arguments that disrupt the forum, may be subject to administrative action due to the disruption of the normal operation of this forum


*4.16.2 Credential Verification*

The staff of this forum is certainly concerned with the rising problem of falsified and otherwise questionable credentials. Due to the costs in time and money, as well as possible language barriers, we are unable to perform verifications. Because of the number of different organizations, splits and other divergences, absolute certainty of authenticity can only be achieved in a few select areas. 

While each member of our unpaid, volunteer staff has their own area of knowledge, we do not feel we are qualified to evaluate the skills of those who have not trained in our own arts. The &#8220;Karateka&#8221; is simply not qualified to decide if the &#8220;Kenpoists&#8221; &#8216;Karate&#8217; is any good. Each art has its own requirements and guidelines. It is humanly impossible to understand them all.

The simple truth is this: there are thousands of opinions on what is right, and wrong in the arts. We encourage our members to share their ideas in a polite manner.

MartialTalk staff will not be involved in &#8216;credential&#8217; verification or &#8216;skills evaluations&#8217;.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 17, 2009)

> Due to its nature, this forum encourages the asking and answering of questions. Many times one member will have questions and concerns about the history, skills, lineage, or paperwork of another member. In other cases, things may be stated on a webpage, flyer or article relating to a member that raises some questions. Sometimes, comments will have been made elsewhere and those issues carried over to MartialTalk.


 So we can disprove someones history,linerage if we can provide evidence to support it?



> The simple truth is this: there are thousands of opinions on what is right, and wrong in the arts. We encourage our members to share their ideas in a polite manner.


 I agree with opinions of right and wrong but I am speaking more of 1+1=2 while some guy is saying 1+1=3 are we not allowed to do that here? In my case if someone is trying to pass a certificate in Japanese I am not allowed to point out it is incorrect use of the language?


----------



## seasoned (Mar 17, 2009)

Cream goes to the top, and sediment goes to the bottom. All things being equal, bad will show itself sooner or later. Hang in there.


----------



## MA-Caver (Mar 17, 2009)

I've posted a few computer scams in the computer room of this forum and of course my intent is to warn people in advance of these easy to fall for type scams.  In-so-far I've yet to receive a PM about it. So I must be doing okay.


----------



## Brian King (Mar 17, 2009)

> Most questions may be raised within the forums dedicated to a particular art or area of interest. For example, Kenpo Lineage questions in the Kenpo forum, are fine. Others of a more serious note, are to be limited to the The Great Debate forum.
> 
> Excessive Inquisitor-style" questioning is not allowed and will be subject to administrative action. If you have had to ask a question more than 3 times, you are most likely running the risk of excessive.
> 
> In addition, Hot Pursuit actions will not be tolerated. The Hot Pursuit is defined as asking the same or similar questions in multiple threads and / or forums.


 
*JadecloudAlchemist wrote*


> In my case if someone is trying to pass a certificate in Japanese I am not allowed to point out it is incorrect use of the language? 


 
I am no moderator here nor on an advisory board and have no authority one way or another and really have little interest in linage battles or certification clarifications other than watching the train wreck approach and spill into bloodshed. 

The problem JA as I see it (again I am a nobody so take it for what it is worth) is often those that have taken on the role of protector of the innocent consumer those that gladly wear the cape of fraud busting get very emotional about the battle. It becomes of prime importance to them that somebody sitting at a keyboard a thousand miles away doesnt admit to being wrong or their teachers past being a little shady (or so shady it needs a light to even be noticed) It becomes so important that they start to attack and turn every thread into and about the contested facts. I think that the rules state you can ask for clarification once or twice or maybe even three times but after that, the asking is getting annoying. 

Far better practice and training in my opinion JA is to ask your questions and seek clarification and if not satisfied with the answer to make it clear that you are not but without insulting directly yet also obviously clear to anyone reading that you disagree. This takes skill and knowledgelike Bruce Lee in that one movie getting the loud mouth with something to prove and looking for fight to get in the little towed boat. Those reading will be able to make up their own minds. Looking for an admission of guilt or an admission of wrong doing is jousting against wind mills and becomes unproductive and worse can make the jouster look the fool. Let the reasonableness and clarity of your inquiries and the simple stating of facts (once or twice) do your talking not the repeated demands for answers and let the clouding of the issue and the dodging speak for the other. Those convinced against their will remain unconvinced still.

My opinion for what it is worth my friend
Warmest wishes
Brian King


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 17, 2009)

Brian your point is well taken and does give thought Thank you.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Mar 17, 2009)

How deep are your pockets? Mine aren't that deep.  When one starts pointing fingers and saying "scammer, fraud, liar" etc, those targeted rarely email me and say "Hey bob, this is a problem.". No, they say "Im gonna sue your ***".

I've received about 20 of these threats of legal action over the years.
Most were from pretty much certified frauds. 
A few (2-3) were from boat rockers, and competitors trying to smear their name. 

We've got no problems with people asking questions, it's where they disrupt the site, and put us at legal risk that's a problem.

"It's not libel if it's true", is true, but that has to be proven in a court of law, costs thousands of dollars, and risks the entire site's existence, plus my main business. With few exceptions, I don't honestly care enough to risk that, especially when there are other sites better suited for consumer protection such as Consumerist, scam.com, and complaints.com.

Also, in the event that the subject of ire does sue us, and does get a properly executed court order for your information, we've got no choice but to comply. In an extreme case, they may skip that step and just take the whole server. That would be bad.

We offer free registration. Anyone can register and post a rebuttal, something we encourage them to do. We rarely pull discussions, but we don't obligate anyone to reply to anyone. 


Hope that makes sense, I'm nursing a headache and am somewhat off today.


----------



## Brian King (Mar 18, 2009)

*JadecloudAlchemst wrote*



> Brian your point is well taken and does give thought Thank you.


 
Your welcome sir. I enjoy reading your posts and value your opinions. Glad that I could give offer you a little of my perspective and some food for thought. 

Regards
Brian King


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 18, 2009)

This leaves me with a question to MT

Then was this post against the rules?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Mar 18, 2009)

Nope.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 18, 2009)

Thanks :asian:


----------

