# IKCA Karate Connection.



## searcher

Just wanted to know what you all think of the IKCA and Mr. Sullivan?

Does anybody here train with or belong to the IKCA?

Just wanting to know what you all think.  Out of curiosity.

Thanks ahead of time.


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## Big Pat

I follow the IKCA system and renewed my Kenpo training with it. It reminds me of Mr. Parker's Chinese Kenpo that I studied in the 70's. You can run a search here at Martialtalk (IKCA, Distance learning,or Mr. Sullivan, etc) for the various threads.There is also great information at the IKCA website. Mr. Sullivan in one of Mr. Parker's early Black belts and can truly say, "Been there, done that" in Kenpo. Try it you might like it. It will at the very least give you an insight into what Kenpo is all about. 

EKP RIP
Big Pat


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## Hand Sword

searcher said:
			
		

> Just wanted to know what you all think of the IKCA and Mr. Sullivan?
> 
> Does anybody here train with or belong to the IKCA?
> 
> Just wanting to know what you all think.  Out of curiosity.
> 
> Thanks ahead of time.


 I have seen him via videos over the computer, and could say that he comes across as a warm, and genuine person. That does count when it comes to teaching, and the idea of trimming the system down does make sense in terms of learning self defense skills. The more variations you add to deal with the same stimuli, the longer it will take your brain to filter through and come up with the movement to deal with the situation, when presented. I feel you should get live training, and use the videos to compliment your training. Plus, I like the EPAK system's way of laying out the material. It gives one a good place to start when formulating a response to an attack--Kenpo is definitely practical, and logical, and can fit with any system.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

searcher said:
			
		

> Just wanted to know what you all think of the IKCA and Mr. Sullivan?
> 
> Does anybody here train with or belong to the IKCA?
> 
> Just wanting to know what you all think. Out of curiosity.
> 
> Thanks ahead of time.


1.  I believe you should have posted this question in the General section.

2.  Are you asking about the material or just the IKCA in general?


DarK LorD


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> I have seen him via videos over the computer, and could say that he comes across as a warm, and genuine person. That does count when it comes to teaching, and the idea of trimming the system down does make sense in terms of learning self defense skills. The more variations you add to deal with the same stimuli, the longer it will take your brain to filter through and come up with the movement to deal with the situation, when presented. I feel you should get live training, and use the videos to compliment your training. Plus, I like the EPAK system's way of laying out the material. It gives one a good place to start when formulating a response to an attack--Kenpo is definitely practical, and logical, and can fit with any system.


Trimming the system down doesn't make it better for the brain to analyze the information, and I don't know why everyone wants to use that excuse instead of better training, see Pavlov's theory.     Hell, I watched Ripley's and saw a dog that can do 500 tricks on voice commands.


DarK LorD


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## The Kai

Cuz, trimming it down makes it quicker to get your Black Belt and even easier to learn thru the mail


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## Doc

The Kai said:
			
		

> Cuz, trimming it down makes it quicker to get your Black Belt and even easier to learn thru the mail


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## searcher

I was wanting to know about the IKCA and its relation to EPAK.   I wanted to know what everyone thought of Mr. Sullivan and his way of teaching.   I have trained in the Okinawan and Korean martial for several years.   I have some experience with EPAK, but most of my Kenpo experience is in the Hawaiian Kenpo area(Ryusaki style).    I have been considering the use of the videos that the IKCA produces to supplement my past Kenpo experience, not as a means of learning the system.   

As for the "trimming" of the system and the gaining of rank,  I already have enough in the way of rank and I am only looking for an increase in knowledge.   Another black belt is not appealing to me.    I do thank you all for your concern when it comes to gaining rank via the mail, but rest assured that I am not looking for a rank gain.


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## bdparsons

Searcher, if you want to find out about the IKCA, talk to the IKCA. Everything is above board, no hidden agendas. There are a lot of opinions on the board concerning the IKCA, for and against. I recommend going to the source and forming your own opinion.



			
				The Kai said:
			
		

> Cuz, trimming it down makes it quicker to get your Black Belt and even easier to learn thru the mail



Tsk, tsk... A lot easier to take uninformed cheap shots than it is to try and speak intelligently, isn't it?

As for you, "Doc", I'd be interested to know, if you have the respect for Mr. Sullivan you say you do, have you ever taken the time to talk to him about why he chose the path he did and listen to his reasoning? I suspect it's easier to act sanctimonious, throw rocks from the sidelines and smile when you meet him face-to-face.

Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## Big Pat

I fully agree with Mr. Parson. If you take the time to voice an opinion on a subject you can either do so being well informed or with a complete lack of knowledge. A person reveals their true self by their actions. As for Mr. Sullivan as stated before his is one of Mr. Parker's early Black belts and one of the few that he promoted to the rank of 7th. I do not believe that he or Mr. LeRoux have shown any disrespect to him in anyway. In fact, I am sure that Mr. Parker would have reviewed the IKCA system and talked to Mr. Sullivan and LeRoux about why they did the things they did. As a note, while the IKCA Black belt tape was being made Mr. Parker passed away. As a tribute to him they they both performed Mr. Parker's Kenpo Salute with a moment of silence to honor him. As for Mr. Sullivan's teaching ability, he has and continues to encourage and help many students, including one of Kenpo's greatest fighters, Mr. Steve (Sanders) Muhammed. Mr. Sullivan has stated many times that he enjoys teaching beginners for the simple fact that it is important to learn strong and correct kenpo fundamentals (basics). This is the true key to Kenpo and all martial arts. 

Sorry for being so long winded..
 :asian: 
EKP RIP
Big Pat


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## punisher73

> Trimming the system down doesn't make it better for the brain to analyze the information, and I don't know why everyone wants to use that excuse instead of better training, see Pavlov's theory. Hell, I watched Ripley's and saw a dog that can do 500 tricks on voice commands.


You are talking about simple S&R when you are referring to Pavlov (hear the bell and slobber), the research is not the same as responses to stimuli and reaction time.  Hick's Law addresses this issue though.  Hick found that when you increased the response to a stimulus from just one option to two options, reaction time increased 58%.  (reference from Sharpening the Warrior's Edge by Bruce Siddle)

So it's not really an excuse there is science behind it and I have yet to see or read any experiments that talk about how having more options to a single stimulus helps reaction time.

But this is all beside the point of the topic...check it out and decide for yourself.  I believe they have a free preview video (pay for shipping) that you can get that outlines the system.


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## Hand Sword

Thank you punisher73! Your response was exactly what I was going to say. However, I would like to add, just for thought, If we keep the system whole, rather than trimming it, and you keep repeating the same movement pattern, aren't you still doing the same thing? I mean, if you practice the movement pattern in one technique, and practice that technique 1000 times, isn't that ultimately the same as practicing 1000 "different" techniques, with the same pattern? So, if you really look at the IKCA they haven't really changed anything. Your getting the practice time, and the movement pattern down that the rest of the EPAK guys do. Having more tecniques doesn't make it better, Isn't that an argument that the EPAK camp made against the Tracy camp on this site, concerning the adding of another strike, but, keeping the same movement, and calling it a new technique? Sounds like the same thing going on here, IKCA is getting slammed for being leaner.


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## The Kai

bdparsons said:
			
		

> Searcher, if you want to find out about the IKCA, talk to the IKCA. Everything is above board, no hidden agendas. There are a lot of opinions on the board concerning the IKCA, for and against. I recommend going to the source and forming your own opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> Tsk, tsk... A lot easier to take uninformed cheap shots than it is to try and speak intelligently, isn't it?
> 
> As for you, "Doc", I'd be interested to know, if you have the respect for Mr. Sullivan you say you do, have you ever taken the time to talk to him about why he chose the path he did and listen to his reasoning? I suspect it's easier to act sanctimonious, throw rocks from the sidelines and smile when you meet him face-to-face.
> 
> Bill Parsons
> Triangle Kenpo Institute


Actually I've seen the tapes, I know the process.  Uninformed, no just don't beleive in the product!~
As fas as it goes it weould'nt really classify Steve Muhammed as a student so much any more!


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## Kenpodoc

Mr. Sullivan was one of Mr. Parkers early students and remained loyal and trained with him to the end of Mr. Parker's life.  He never intimates that he is teaching EPAK  but his system will certainly teach you to move well and likely give you insight into any other system you have studied.  Ideally live instructors are best but video can be an additional resource.  

Many people make the mistake of thinking that the techniques are the core of Mr. Parker's system when i believe that in reality they were an attempt to create a system by which others could pass on at least the basics of what Mr. Parker was able to teach personally.  Much of what Mr. Parker could do and teach was incorporated into the techniques but some information just could not make it into a simple list of techniques.  

"As for you, "Doc", I'd be interested to know, if you have the respect for Mr. Sullivan you say you do, have you ever taken the time to talk to him about why he chose the path he did and listen to his reasoning? I suspect it's easier to act sanctimonious, throw rocks from the sidelines and smile when you meet him face-to-face." - Bill Parsons

Dr. Chapel and Mr. Sullivan have known each other for roughly half a century.  I suspect that they have talked. They have chosen different paths. Both have my respect and their feelings for each other are their business and not mine.

respectfully,

Jeff


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## MJS

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Thank you punisher73! Your response was exactly what I was going to say. However, I would like to add, just for thought, If we keep the system whole, rather than trimming it, and you keep repeating the same movement pattern, aren't you still doing the same thing? I mean, if you practice the movement pattern in one technique, and practice that technique 1000 times, isn't that ultimately the same as practicing 1000 "different" techniques, with the same pattern? So, if you really look at the IKCA they haven't really changed anything. Your getting the practice time, and the movement pattern down that the rest of the EPAK guys do. Having more tecniques doesn't make it better, Isn't that an argument that the EPAK camp made against the Tracy camp on this site, concerning the adding of another strike, but, keeping the same movement, and calling it a new technique? Sounds like the same thing going on here, IKCA is getting slammed for being leaner.



Good point!!  We'll certainly get different thoughts on the 'less is better/more is better' debate.  If we looked at how many techs. are included for a right punch, we would find quite a few.  Now, add in the extensions.  If we're doing tech. "A", and it goes as planned, great.  If it does not, then we have another option...the extensions and other techs.....to fall back on.  I agree with your statement that having more does not always make it better.  While everyone may not agree, speaking for me only here, I'd rather have a few things that I can fall back on and do them great, than have a bunch of things that I can only do 50%.

Mike


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## searcher

bdparsons said:
			
		

> Searcher, if you want to find out about the IKCA, talk to the IKCA. Everything is above board, no hidden agendas. There are a lot of opinions on the board concerning the IKCA, for and against. I recommend going to the source and forming your own opinion.
> 
> 
> Bill Parsons
> Triangle Kenpo Institute


Thanks for the advice.  I contacted the IKCA shortly before I wrote my last post.  So far they seem to be on par with what the positives have had to say.   I understand that everyone has their opinion and I want to hear them all.   I have always tried to keep an open mind and draw my own opinions from personal experience.   I hope that you will all keep the good posts coming.


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## Blindside

searcher said:
			
		

> Just wanted to know what you all think of the IKCA and Mr. Sullivan?
> 
> Does anybody here train with or belong to the IKCA?
> 
> Just wanting to know what you all think.  Out of curiosity.
> 
> Thanks ahead of time.



I have met in competition members from, or visited in person 4 schools that teach the IKCA curricullum.  I hate to say it, but they were all sub-par to average in quality.  My impression was that the techniques were fine but the basics were lacking.  Too be fair though, that is a common critique of kenpo schools and four schools is a pretty small sample size.  

It may be fine for a martial artist who already has a decent base, but I am skeptical of bringing someone through from a beginner stage.  I actually recommended this program to one of our brown belts who was going to be moving frequently over the next several years, but that was because I knew her foundation was already solid.

Lamont


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## Hand Sword

searcher said:
			
		

> Thanks for the advice.  I contacted the IKCA shortly before I wrote my last post.  So far they seem to be on par with what the positives have had to say.   I understand that everyone has their opinion and I want to hear them all.   I have always tried to keep an open mind and draw my own opinions from personal experience.   I hope that you will all keep the good posts coming.


 Good for you, keep that frame of mind! That's an important quality to grow as a person over all.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

punisher73 said:
			
		

> You are talking about simple S&R when you are referring to Pavlov (hear the bell and slobber), the research is not the same as responses to stimuli and reaction time. Hick's Law addresses this issue though. Hick found that when you increased the response to a stimulus from just one option to two options, reaction time increased 58%. (reference from Sharpening the Warrior's Edge by Bruce Siddle)
> 
> So it's not really an excuse there is science behind it and I have yet to see or read any experiments that talk about how having more options to a single stimulus helps reaction time.
> 
> But this is all beside the point of the topic...check it out and decide for yourself. I believe they have a free preview video (pay for shipping) that you can get that outlines the system.


Hmm, everyone keeps bringing Hick's law into the picture everytime they want to cut or delete from the original.    Take a video game for instance, when you first start you have no idea what's going to happen, as you continue to play your response time actually gets better, that's why you're able to continue the game to the next level, and hopefully, get to the end.

The IKCA program is cut short for a reason, not because they wanted to trim it down to lean and mean.

DarK LorD


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## Seabrook

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Hmm, everyone keeps bringing Hick's law into the picture everytime they want to cut or delete from the original. Take a video game for instance, when you first start you have no idea what's going to happen, as you continue to play your response time actually gets better, that's why you're able to continue the game to the next level, and hopefully, get to the end.
> DarK LorD


Good analogy Clyde. That is so true. When someone plays a video game (and get addicted to it), they first start by losing rather quickly. Before long, kids have "solved" the game, and they are on to another game...I like it!

Jamie Seabrook


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## Basicman

Using the video game line of reasoning, then how come when someone is learning kenpo, as they get higher in belt, they don't learn the techniques faster?  A kick is a kick and a punch is a punch?  How come then it takes many years to become a black belt?  Using your analogy, the lower belts would take the longest and each successive should be shorter to earn and learn do to repitition of material.  Sorry, but learning and doing techniques are quite different thean playing video games.  

Playing a video games only involves your hands and mind, while doing a technique involves your entire body.  Also, playing a video game does make someone belive they are in a Fight or Flight scenario.  SOrry not the same.


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## Hand Sword

Basicman said:
			
		

> Using the video game line of reasoning, then how come when someone is learning kenpo, as they get higher in belt, they don't learn the techniques faster?  A kick is a kick and a punch is a punch?  How come then it takes many years to become a black belt?  Using your analogy, the lower belts would take the longest and each successive should be shorter to earn and learn do to repitition of material.  Sorry, but learning and doing techniques are quite different thean playing video games.
> 
> Playing a video games only involves your hands and mind, while doing a technique involves your entire body.  Also, playing a video game does make someone belive they are in a Fight or Flight scenario.  SOrry not the same.


 Right on!


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## Seabrook

Basicman said:
			
		

> Using the video game line of reasoning, then how come when someone is learning kenpo, as they get higher in belt, they don't learn the techniques faster? A kick is a kick and a punch is a punch? How come then it takes many years to become a black belt? Using your analogy, the lower belts would take the longest and each successive should be shorter to earn and learn do to repitition of material. Sorry, but learning and doing techniques are quite different thean playing video games.


I don't agree with you on this one. I find the students are able to learn techniques easier (and quicker) once they have moved up several ranks. 

Why the delay in years to get to black belt? That is obvious. When you teach the entire EPAK curriculum, complete with all the forms, sets, self-defenses, there is a heck of a lot for students to learn. Additionally, what happens if someone can only make it in once per week? Clearly, how often you train will be a reflection of how quickly one get's promoted.

Some students, for example, train twice weekly. One class they attend may focus on self-defense, while the other strictly sparring. In this hypothetical, but reasonable scenario, how in the world can one obtain a Kenpo black belt in a short amount of time? 


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Seabrook

To reiterate the topic of this discussion - cutting back the number of techniques does not make Kenpo leaner and meaner. It gives students a basic but inadequate understanding of the Kenpo curriculum that Mr. Parker designed.  


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Hand Sword

Seabrook said:
			
		

> To reiterate the topic of this discussion - cutting back the number of techniques does not make Kenpo leaner and meaner. It gives students a basic but inadequate understanding of the Kenpo curriculum that Mr. Parker designed.
> 
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


 From what I understand, and I could be wrong, so please don't get angry, isn't the Kenpo of the IKCA the early form of what would become EPAK? I thought I heard it explained that way, and that version would have less than the future version, after Mr. Parker's experimenting, and refining.


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## Kenpodoc

Seabrook said:
			
		

> To reiterate the topic of this discussion - cutting back the number of techniques does not make Kenpo leaner and meaner. It gives students a basic but inadequate understanding of the Kenpo curriculum that Mr. Parker designed.
> 
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


This would be true if Kenpo were the techniques themselves.  I think that Mr. Parkers Kenpo is something more than just the techniques/forms/sets.  The system as Mr. Parker set it up was a means of sharing information with a large group of schools.  A very clever and effective idea but I'm sure that he would have admitted it incomplete and  at the same time not the only available path.  IKCA is not EPAK but Mr. Sullivan never says it is. He does say that it is his way of sharing what he learned from his teacher. As to a basic but inadequate understanding of the system I believe that this would relate to the teacher, the student and their interaction with each other.  

respectfully,

Jeff


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## Kenpodoc

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> From what I understand, and I could be wrong, so please don't get angry, isn't the Kenpo of the IKCA the early form of what would become EPAK? I thought I heard it explained that way, and that version would have less than the future version, after Mr. Parker's experimenting, and refining.


I believe that rather than just an early version of EPAK the IKCA is the distillation of Mr. Sullivan's and Mr. LeRoux's understanding of kenpo as Mr. Parker taught them.  I believe that they both studied with Mr. Parker to the end of his life. 

Jeff


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## The Kai

I think they split off from parker, that is why the IKCA is a earlier version of parker's kenpo


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## bdparsons

CONCERNING THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN ED PARKER AND THE FOUNDERS OF THE KARATE CONNECTION:

Though there were times of inactivity in the relationship between Mr. Parker and Mr. Sullivan/Mr. LeRoux, there was never a "split off". The founders of the Karate Connection remained loyal to Mr. Parker until the time of his death.

CONCERNING THE IKCA CURRICULUM:

The following is taken from the History page of the IKCA website, written by Chuck Sullivan:

_Some people thought Ed Parker added all the techniques he did for financial gain, to keep his students with him longer. I don't believe that for a second. I truly believe he kept creating new techniques simply because so many of his Black Belts insisted upon it. They wanted more, so he gave them more. The problem came when those techniques were passed on to the new students. The system became a monster. 

Digging back into time I remembered something the Old Man said way, way back. He said, "I'd rather have ten techniques I can fight with than a hundred techniques that fight me". That became the Karate Connection's quest. 

We had to analyze somewhere over three hundred techniques, that we had been teaching over the years and get rid of the excess baggage. We had to eliminate the repetitious and weaker techniques. Others we could reformulate into techniques that still contained the original concepts and principles. Some we were able to use as they were but no matter what we did, we knew that above all we had to retain the full essence of Kenpo, otherwise it would mean nothing. 

We created a chart that went from wall to wall and two years later everything we wanted to teach was on that chart. Being able to see the entire system at once was the only method that was workable. Every time we wanted to see if a principle or concept had been covered we didn't have to read through reams of pages. Of course after a time we became so familiarized with that chart we could go directly to what we were looking for. _ 

Whether you agree with what Mr. Sullivan and Mr. LeRoux did or not, whether you are impressed with students of theirs you have seen or not, one thing must be remembered. They did what they did with the full knowledge and blessing of Mr. Parker. With Mr. Parker's consent and support they developed and implemented a curriculum of Kenpo that refined the system they had learned back down to its most effective basics. Though the amount of material was reduced, it still incorporates all Kenpo principles and concepts. In the end the new curriculum (all the curriculum, not just what is on the tapes) resembles the original teachings of Mr. Parker from the early 1960's, with the benefit of having kept the best of how Kenpo had evolved over the years.

CONCERNING THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN AMERICAN KENPO AND IKCA KENPO:
Some will disagree with my assessment, and that is their perogative. But to those that say the IKCA teaches a system of Kenpo that is lacking I respectfully ask... Where is it lacking? In what respect is it lacking? Is it in the concepts? The principles? The execution? Or is it just in the amount of material? Nearly everyone I've asked these questions of respond with generalities or vague statements, I really would prefer to hear specifics. 

I'm doing my best to pick apart the system I've learned. When I hear an American Kenpoist describe something I ask myself, "Is this addressed in some way, somewhere in our system?" Admittedly, we do not use the complete terminology of American Kenpo, and at times that hinders the discussion a bit. But what I have found is when we come to an agreement about what we are discussing, I can usually point out  where and what in the IKCA sysytem applies to the discussion, physical or conceptual, and be able to engage the issue from that point forward. In these discussions I'm reassured concerning the IKCA system because there are very, very few times when I'm at a loss to discuss a facet of Kenpo intelligently. Sometimes I've got to do a little research and digging, but very, very seldom. I don't credit this to have anything to do with me, but more with the system I've learned and continue to learn more about all the time. I'm of the firm conviction that the Kenpo system I practice is good, solid Kenpo, through and through. Though I certainly don't profess to know everything there is to know about Kenpo, one thing I can recognize is good Kenpo. In my opinion, IKCA Kenpo, properly executed, falls into that category.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

The IKCA and the reduced Kenpo curriculum = tastes great, less fulfilling.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

The IKCA presents two major changes to the normal EPAK approach.

1)  Fewer techniques

2)  Video instruction.

I would argue that the number of techniques is not the most important factor in building Kenpo proficiency.  If it were, then Tracy's practitioners would gernerally be more proficient than EPAK practitioners.  

The more important factor is the weakness of video instruction.  It is just not the best method for learning martial arts.  It can be a good suplement to dojo training, but cannot replace it.

What is the proof?  Visit EPAK schools:  proficiency varies but is generally high.  Visit Tracy schools:  proficiency varies but is generally high.  Visit IKCA schools:  proficiency varies but generally sucks.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

P.S. My nephew is a TKD Black Belt at a school that has added the IKCA curriculum.  He kicks well, but his Kenpo sucks.


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## Sapper6

it concerns me that each time i read a thread about the IKCA i see all the Parker kenpoists yapping about about bad it sucks.  i would much rather have 55 techniques and solid basics i was proficient in than 154 techniques i'm not proficient in.  since when did the number of techniques determine the systems value?  if this is the case, the Tracy's bury the Parker people.  but i don't believe this is the case at all.  the practitioner makes the art, NOT vice versa.  i've seen some very piss poor EPAK students.  is that to say EPAK sucks?  of course not.  

the biggest complaint i see about the IKCA is the video instruction idea.  lots of EPAK kenpoists have produced videos.  do they all suck as well?  the way i see it, Sullivan and LeRoux have taken a small peice of what they got from EPAK and reconfigured it to suit their organization.  how is this any different than what Ed Parker himself did to his own art by restructuring it to help it sell?  they are not calling it Ed Parker's American Kenpo.  so what's the problem?  there are folks who want to claim that Sullivan is only in it for the $$ and nothing else.  not the way i see it.  the entire system via video costs less than $200.00.  not quite the money mongers you claim them to be IMO.  have you seen the cost of "When Kenpo Strikes" by Tatum?  $719.00.  of course Mr. Tatum doesn't offer a certification with those tapes.  so is that the ultimate complaint?  that Sullivan offers a belt certification with the systems?  who cares.

to those interested in practicing kenpo the IKCA way:  order the free preview tape.  watch it, pick up the phone and call them personally.  question them.  if you decide it's for you, then do it.  if you don't, then don't.  but don't think you can get away from practicing and working your stuff.  you must bust your tail to become proficient, period.  again, the practitioner makes the art!

and to the folks who like to shed negative criticism on the topic.  cut it out.  does it make you a better martial artist?  are you above these people?  how many students do you have in your OWN school who have problems with form, technique, or foundation?  and don't say none.  lacking in these areas is not limited to the folks who video train.  it's everywhere!  and again i say TRAIN.  
what ever happened to humility and humbleness?  show respect even if you don't agree with it.  trash talking the IKCA is no different than saying TKD or Goju sucks.  it's blatantly disrespectful.  allow each and every curious practitioner to find out on their own if it's right for them.

i have never studied the IKCA program.  i've never had anything to do with it.  but i will keep an open mind and be respectful.  what about the rest of you?

my name is Sapper6 and i approved this message.

 :asian:


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## Kenpodoc

Sapper6 makes good points. Mr. Sullivan do not charge nearly enough to be accused of being money hungry.  (I believe that they have a right to earn a good living.) And they remain loyal to Mr. Parker.

Jeff


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> it concerns me that each time i read a thread about the IKCA i see all the Parker kenpoists yapping about about bad it sucks.


I am not a Parker Kenpoist.  But I think the IKCA method sucks.  



			
				Sapper6 said:
			
		

> i would much rather have 55 techniques and solid basics i was proficient in than 154 techniques i'm not proficient in.  since when did the number of techniques determine the systems value?  if this is the case, the Tracy's bury the Parker people.  but i don't believe this is the case at all.


I agree that the number of techniques is less important than solid basics and the ability to apply them.



			
				Sapper6 said:
			
		

> the practitioner makes the art, NOT vice versa.  i've seen some very piss poor EPAK students.  is that to say EPAK sucks?  of course not.


It is a rare practitioner who can completely overcome bad instruction or a weak art.  If you have a solid art, a good instructor, then the practitioner can excel.  



			
				Sapper6 said:
			
		

> the biggest complaint i see about the IKCA is the video instruction idea.  lots of EPAK kenpoists have produced videos.  do they all suck as well?  the way i see it, Sullivan and LeRoux have taken a small peice of what they got from EPAK and reconfigured it to suit their organization.


Yes, lots of people have produced videos.  These videos are designed to augment and supplement instruction and practice, not to replace it.



			
				Sapper6 said:
			
		

> how is this any different than what Ed Parker himself did to his own art by restructuring it to help it sell?  they are not calling it Ed Parker's American Kenpo.  so what's the problem?  there are folks who want to claim that Sullivan is only in it for the $$ and nothing else.  not the way i see it.  the entire system via video costs less than $200.00.  not quite the money mongers you claim them to be IMO.  have you seen the cost of "When Kenpo Strikes" by Tatum?  $719.00.


Regardless of how Ed Parker restructured the art, he taught people in person and encouraged his students to teach people in person.  And, he didn't promote based solely on a video tape.



			
				Sapper6 said:
			
		

> of course Mr. Tatum doesn't offer a certification with those tapes.  so is that the ultimate complaint?  that Sullivan offers a belt certification with the systems?  who cares.


Yes, exactly.  When people are promoted with minimal proficiency, what do those outside of the system think about it?  They think it sucks.   McDojos with low standards give Kenpo a bad name.



			
				Sapper6 said:
			
		

> to those interested in practicing kenpo the IKCA way:  order the free preview tape.  watch it, pick up the phone and call them personally.  question them.  if you decide it's for you, then do it.  if you don't, then don't.  but don't think you can get away from practicing and working your stuff.  you must bust your tail to become proficient, period.  again, the practitioner makes the art!


Why not skip the phone call and video tape and go train at a real dojo?



			
				Sapper6 said:
			
		

> and to the folks who like to shed negative criticism on the topic.  cut it out.  does it make you a better martial artist?  are you above these people?  how many students do you have in your OWN school who have problems with form, technique, or foundation?  and don't say none.  lacking in these areas is not limited to the folks who video train.  it's everywhere!  and again i say TRAIN.


No, it doesnt make me a better martial artist.  But it might help others from going down the wrong path, getting a bogus promotion, and embarrassing hard-working rank-deserving Kenpoists.



			
				Sapper6 said:
			
		

> what ever happened to humility and humbleness?  show respect even if you don't agree with it.  trash talking the IKCA is no different than saying TKD or Goju sucks.  it's blatantly disrespectful.  allow each and every curious practitioner to find out on their own if it's right for them.


Some TKD and Goju schools do suck.  And yes, Im disrespectful.  Respect has to be earned.  Rank awards for videotaped demonstrations with minimal proficiency requirements does not deserve my respect.  



			
				Sapper6 said:
			
		

> i have never studied the IKCA program.  i've never had anything to do with it.  but i will keep an open mind and be respectful.  what about the rest of you?
> 
> my name is Sapper6 and i approved this message.
> 
> :asian:



Well, if you visit an IKCA school, or see the results of their training in action, then you would make up your mind and you might no longer be respectful.  The thread asked the question about what people think of the IKCA and people who are familiar with what they do are responding.  Since you are unfamiliar with what they do, why are you responding?


----------



## Sapper6

> I am not a Parker Kenpoist.  But I think the IKCA method sucks.



good for you my friend.  very easy to cast judgment from the outside isn't it.



> I agree that the number of techniques is less important than solid basics and the ability to apply them.



indeed.



> It is a rare practitioner who can completely overcome bad instruction or a weak art.  If you have a solid art, a good instructor, then the practitioner can excel.



and how does this exclude the IKCA?  the instructor element is still there via tape.  i believe Sullivan himself responds personally via a tape back to you telling you what you lack in.  if you don't pass, you don't get the belt.  and btw, you left out practice in your list above.



> Yes, lots of people have produced videos.  These videos are designed to augment and supplement instruction and practice, not to replace it.



sure they have a different purpose.  is that stated on the video?  is that in the disclaimer?  no, it is not.



> Regardless of how Ed Parker restructured the art, he taught people in person and encouraged his students to teach people in person.  And, he didn't promote based solely on a video tape.



Parker, just like any instructor, will promote based upon what they saw in technique application.  is there rule that the grading instructor must be standing within 10 feet of the student?  and i beleive that each technique the student sends in to Sullivan must be performed on a partner.  have you ever performed a technique on a non-martial artist in practice?  they don't quite react the way you'd prefer them to, which in turn, makes it more difficult to execute that technique.



> Yes, exactly.  When people are promoted with minimal proficiency, what do those outside of the system think about it?  They think it sucks.   McDojos with low standards give Kenpo a bad name.



have you ever graded an IKCA tape?  do you personally know the standards upon which they are grading?  how can you say this without being there.  again, much easier on the outside looking in.



> Why not skip the phone call and video tape and go train at a real dojo?



easier said than done.  what about the guy living 100 miles from the nearest studio?  what are his/her options?  a little of an art is better than none.  perhaps a student could the littlest of guidance from one of those tapes and practice it repetitively.  that little knowledge he does take from that could one day save his life.  does this still make the program worthless?



> No, it doesnt make me a better martial artist.  But it might help others from going down the wrong path, getting a bogus promotion, and embarrassing hard-working rank-deserving Kenpoists.



why should it embarrass them?  are they THAT insecure about their own abilities that they should allow something like this to worry them?  worry about yourselves more than others.  you'll be a much better martial artist.  and there will always be worse/better practitioners than yourselves.  you can't change that, ever.



> Some TKD and Goju schools do suck.  And yes, Im disrespectful.  Respect has to be earned.  Rank awards for videotaped demonstrations with minimal proficiency requirements does not deserve my respect.



i didn't know you were the almighty ruler over what deserves what rank.  again, you don't grade them.  you haven't the slightest idea of what is being graded.  below is what a IKCA practioner said in a post in a similar thread here a while back:



> _It isn't easy. I failed my orange belt test due to not catching nuances on tape. The personal lesson I got after failing made all the difference. I think having a partner who understands what you are doing makes a difference, but if that partner has no clue, then it is like the blind leading the blind. Video courses have their limitations, but so do alot of Dojos. Many of them are crap. It also depends what you want out of your MA experience._



there is alot of truth behind that.




> Well, if you visit an IKCA school, or see the results of their training in action, then you would make up your mind and you might no longer be respectful.  The thread asked the question about what people think of the IKCA and people who are familiar with what they do are responding.  Since you are unfamiliar with what they do, why are you responding?



and the same goes for you as well OFK.  i've read alot about what the IKCA is about.  i have a pretty good understanding about what it is.  and why am i responding?  because i can.


----------



## Michael Billings

... and the conflict rages on.

 -Michael


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

:deadhorse 

We've been down the IKCA/Video instruction road on these fora before. I ain't gonna change your mind; you ain't gonna change mine.

IMO, IKCA kenpo is minimalist, and the ability to control the quality of basics as part of an ongoing, moment-to-moment process, is not present in the model. Sub-par process --> sub-par product. Simple.

Regards,

Dave.


----------



## bdparsons

If anyone read my post... I respectfully request for those who feel that IKCA Kenpo is lacking... please share with me specific examples of where the IKCA curriculum is lacking. We all agree that face-to-face instruction is best, that's not the argument here, what in your opinion is lacking in the curriculum? No general slams and slanders please, give me specifics.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


----------



## The Kai

If you wanted to bake a cake, but decided to eliminate all the ingredents that might spoil i.e. eggs, milk and such.  What would you have?


----------



## bdparsons

The Kai said:
			
		

> If you wanted to bake a cake, but decided to eliminate all the ingredents that might spoil i.e. eggs, milk and such.  What would you have?



Is this your definition of specifics?

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


----------



## Kenpodoc

My read on the IKCA is that the basics are there and they do a good job of training spontinaeity.  If you can find a good instructor to personally review the material with you will become a skilled martial artist.  Other systems will provide more or different things but that could be said of every art.  The problem remains that in order to become skilled you need good training partners.  In order to avoid bad habits you need a skilled instructor who can personally interact with the student.  

I believe that the IKCA recognizes this and is attempting to look for ways to increase contact among their members.  My personal feeling is that I would look at the instructors available and choose to study whatever art the instructor you most admire teaches. Given infinite resourses I'd travel to study directly with a Mr. Wedlake or Mr. Planas or Mr. Pick or Dr. Chapel or Mr. Vasuliev, etc.  I am hwever very proud to study with Mr. Hatfield, He has more to offer than I can ever hope to learn, I get personal attention and he is local.  

If I could not find an instructor with whom Icould study personally the IKCA offers an option with at least some contact albeit distant with a skilled instructor.
Jeff


----------



## Basicman

Why is it no one can provide any evidence?  That all they can do is say you suck?  Or make vague refernces with quotes?  Or attack people personally?  

For the ones that say I have discussed this before and I am not going to change your mind or you ain't gonna change mine.  I have respect for.  But just to make vague comments, that is not only being disrespectful, it is also showing ignorance.  Give me some facts, so I can see where you are coming from.  If not, then all this discussion has degraded into is, I don't like you because you are different....


----------



## searcher

I am very happy for all of the replies and that everyone is expressing their own opinion.   I dod not, however, intend for this to turn into an arguement back and for between people.   I know this is what often occurs when differing opinions clash, but fighting amongst yourselves will most likely not sway either sides opinion.

To address the comment on whether or not it is a valid way of leraning Kenpo, I will let time tell.   I have seen many video from other EPAK instructors and they have helped me in the past when I was regularly training in EPAK.   This was and still is the reason for my inquiry about the IKCA.   I hope this thread will not turn into a style/group bashing one.


----------



## Kenpodoc

Basicman said:
			
		

> Why is it no one can provide any evidence?  That all they can do is say you suck?  Or make vague refernces with quotes?  Or attack people personally?
> 
> For the ones that say I have discussed this before and I am not going to change your mind or you ain't gonna change mine.  I have respect for.  But just to make vague comments, that is not only being disrespectful, it is also showing ignorance.  Give me some facts, so I can see where you are coming from.  If not, then all this discussion has degraded into is, I don't like you because you are different....


I don't think that I bashed anyone. As to evidence I'm not sure what you are looking for but I'm sure none exists.  I offered opinions because that's all I can respond with. 

Jeff


----------



## The Kai

1.) In any given class a dozen corrections or adjustments occur.  Not just once every 3 months in the belt "tests".  Sdomethings that need to be taught and some are unconcsious mistakes that you pretty much need a 'proofreader" to catch

2.) Focus or Kime

3.) Body Mechanics, body rhyth or timing.  The how and why of extended techniques
4.) stance transitions leading to body transitions
5.) Style signitures
6.) Chioce of techniques, having seen the tapes-you got to wonder 

There a couple of points
BTW I know Mr tatum has tapes, however they a supplemental to live training not expected to confer rank.


----------



## bdparsons

The Kai said:
			
		

> 1.)BTW I know Mr tatum has tapes, however they a supplemental to live training not expected to confer rank.



Actually, Mr. Tatum now offers a Home Study Course based on his technique videos.

http://www.ltatum.com

Check about 3/4 of the way down the page.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

The Kai said:
			
		

> If you wanted to bake a cake, but decided to eliminate all the ingredents that might spoil i.e. eggs, milk and such.  What would you have?



You would have something very similar to a Manishewitz Passover cake.  Which tastes something like a fluffy matzoh.


----------



## The Kai

Ming The Merciless (or is it Ping the Faceless)says:"Close-minded fool; you only foster animosity, not spirited debate" and of course he added "I will destroy your puny planet!!".  Actually the underlined part was my imagination

What kinda strikes me is everybody says "Give details".  I do you can choose to argue over the concepts I think are important or Keep saying  - you suck, no you suck-.


----------



## bdparsons

The Kai said:
			
		

> What kinda strikes me is everybody says "Give details".  I do you can choose to argue over the concepts I think are important or Keep saying  - you suck, no you suck-.



Never once have I stated "you suck", can't say that I've been extended the same courtesy. The assumption having never met me face-to-face is that I suck at Kenpo because I chose to learn study in an unorthodox (I like neo-orthodox) manner.

Speaking of the advantages of an in person instructor (never disputed) is not discussing concepts, it's discussing logistics.

Any thoughts on Mr. Tatum's HSP?

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


----------



## Basicman

Mr Tatum's HSP is no different from IKCA.  I have looked at both.  The only difference is actually in price.  Mr Tatum's cost much more.  I have material from both organizations.  I have to say Mr Tatum's material is much better than IKCAs.  The production quality is better.  there is greater detail and he really explains the concepts he is trying to get across.  I felt the IKCA tapes were dated and really did not contain great detail.  Nor was the instruction in the "basics"  as good as what was on Mr Tatum's material.

I think where people get hung up about IKCA, is them calling themselves Kenpo.  They keep wanting to say it needs to be like or a copy or expecting it to conform to EPAK.  I think if it was called Sullivan's Karate, this debate would not happen as much.

I still believe that people put too much stock in a Black Belt.  This debate reminds me of, my father get beat up your father.  

Kenpodoc, I was not talking about you specifically.  I just want to hear examples.  Instead of "It sucks."  You have tried to provide examples when you could.  

Going back to what I said earlier, I am not convinced knowing more techniques makes you a better fighter.  I enjoy doing Kenpo, but I don't neccessarily believe that you need to learn every self-defense technique to beat a complete fighter.


----------



## bdparsons

The Kai said:
			
		

> 6.) Chioce of techniques, having seen the tapes-you got to wonder.



As to the techniques, realizing of course you're only seeing approx. fifty percent of what is taught, what do feel is lacking?

Respects (really),
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


----------



## bdparsons

Basicman said:
			
		

> Mr Tatum's HSP is no different from IKCA.



Actually there is one major difference. Out of curiosity and for comparison purposes I called and spoke to Mr. Tatum personally about his HSP. The initial process is the same (though I'm not sure of how the video tests are to be done for Mr. Tatum), but when it comes to the evaluation, Mr. Tatum stated that when a tape is sent in that the individual will "... be called and we'll talk about how you did over the phone." I was left with the impression that there would be no video critique and inclusion of additional material as is standard practice when the IKCA receives a video test from anyone, pass or fail.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


----------



## Sigung86

With the exception of something that is very detail specific, and here I am thinking specifically of Doc Chapél's system, Sub Level 4, I fail to understand why someone could not learn Tracy's Karate, EPAK, or other branches of Kenpo from Video format.  And it so happens that Black Belt magazine tends to agree...

It takes, I suspect, a number of personal attributes to do.  

1.  Desire to learn and learn correctly.

2.  Ability to know left from right

3.  Ability to learn motion in mirror orientation ... Something that is not too 
     terribly difficult if you are of average intelligence, can tie your shoes, and     
     chew gum.

4.  Minimal to average analytical skills

5.  A level of physical fitness that allows you to move, move quickly and 
     move in a fairly accurate fashion.

Kenpo is not rocket science.  Most of the advances that are made in it are personal enlightenment.  Very little, again, outside of something on the magnitude of order of a Sub Level 4, is actually new and improved.  Most of the new stuff coming out and being "introduced" is rearranged material.  Kenpo and it's basic evolutionary ideas are thousands of years old ... How can you honestly introduce much new?  Why.... You can use new technology and learning theory to introduce old concepts, philosophies and motion to a new generation.

If you give an idiot a few things to do and enough time to do them, he can become very competent, to the point of being an expert or a master, as it were.  The method of learning and absorbing anything is based on the desire mixed with ability of the individual and his/her ability to use the tools available to transfer that knowledge.  It all, basically, boils down to that.

Having watched the evolution of this Kenpo Culture over the years on this wonderful worldwide web, leads me to believe that often enough, the old school guys like myself, and a few other nameless oldtimers, with some notable exceptions,  out here are really not too interested in change.

Philosophically, change is bad for most folks.

If you want to study via video, or are unable to find a school that you want to study with in close proximity, then by all means, go for it.  You can always spend a little extra money here and there and go to seminars, tournaments, pizza gatherings, etc.... And find out a little more.

The idea, in my mind, of Kenpo, is that it is a life-long journey.  It's your journey (Sounds like a great title for a book )...  Get on with it and enjoy *YOUR* journey.  There will always be someone who is better than you at something, and maybe better in everything, but by the same token, there are others who are not as good.   Your journey is for you to take and enjoy.
If *You* are better today than *you* were yesterday or last week then you've got something there.  If you ain't enjoying it, you need to get out of Kenpo and take up something else like underwater basket weaving.

One of the upsides to learning Keno via video technology is the lack of ego.
You are simply learning what the instructor has to offer.  Not involved in his/her fan club, not involved in having to make ethical/moral decisions to support him/her and the attendent school.  Not having to join Kenpo gangs ... Simply doing the best you can to glean information that is useful to you, which is what you are trying to do via video or attending a school, anyway.

Me?  I'm saving my pennies and taking contributions to get my young butt out to California, where I plan to stand on the doorstep of Doc Chapéls school until he accepts me as a student or kicks me back to the airport.

The rest of it is dependent on your taste and desire for fame and fortune.  You want Tatum, Trejo, Sullivan, LeRoux, Planas, Chapél .... etc... etc... to sign your certificates?  You will find what you are looking for if you dig and study and learn.  There are people out there who don't do seminars, don't have websites, don't have a large following, and often simply teach out of their garage, or basement, who have the wisdom of the ages, and you won't hear their names mentioned anywhere.  But you gotta dig for it.  

Having said that, I sure wouldn't depend on Seig, Alan Wortman, Dan Farmer, or anyone else who isn't a very rich, very wise, and a demonstrable Grandmaster to tell me which way is best for me.

For what it is worth, I have the IKCA tapes, have gone through them, have learned up to Black Belt and not ranked in it.  Their material is ok, but you have to understand that some of the techniques are not universally useful.  They have good concept, but won't work in all situations.  On the other hand, Tracy Karate, and Ed Parker Kenpo, with their maximalist and minimalist approaches of the old material are in the same boat.  Each has it's strength and weaknesses.

IKCA does not have much in the way of what I consider to be useful weapon defense, but then again, speaking topically, with very few notable exceptions, the other systems are more or less in the same boat.

If you are a technique horse, you are in trouble in the IKCA as they only have 55 or so techs that everything else is culled from.  They only really have two kata or forms.  But the upside to that is you can build your own Kenpo system based on what they have.  You could make a million technique system if you are into volume.   :boing2: 

So go do what you wanna do and enjoy your trip... And non-illigitimi carborundum (Never let the bastards wear you down!)  :readrules

Sorry to ramble so, but I don't get out of the Missouri State Home for the Mentally Bewildered very often. 

Dan Farmer
Ex-RokuDan
Tracy International


----------



## Basicman

Very well put.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

Sigung86 said:
			
		

> With the exception of something that is very detail specific, and here I am thinking specifically of Doc Chapél's system, Sub Level 4, I fail to understand why someone could not learn Tracy's Karate, EPAK, or other branches of Kenpo from Video format.  And it so happens that Black Belt magazine tends to agree...
> 
> It takes, I suspect, a number of personal attributes to do.
> 
> 1.  Desire to learn and learn correctly.
> 
> 2.  Ability to know left from right
> 
> 3.  Ability to learn motion in mirror orientation ... Something that is not too
> terribly difficult if you are of average intelligence, can tie your shoes, and
> chew gum.
> 
> 4.  Minimal to average analytical skills
> 
> 5.  A level of physical fitness that allows you to move, move quickly and
> move in a fairly accurate fashion.
> 
> Kenpo is not rocket science.  Most of the advances that are made in it are personal enlightenment.  Very little, again, outside of something on the magnitude of order of a Sub Level 4, is actually new and improved.  Most of the new stuff coming out and being "introduced" is rearranged material.  Kenpo and it's basic evolutionary ideas are thousands of years old ... How can you honestly introduce much new?  Why.... You can use new technology and learning theory to introduce old concepts, philosophies and motion to a new generation.
> 
> If you give an idiot a few things to do and enough time to do them, he can become very competent, to the point of being an expert or a master, as it were.  The method of learning and absorbing anything is based on the desire mixed with ability of the individual and his/her ability to use the tools available to transfer that knowledge.  It all, basically, boils down to that.
> 
> Having watched the evolution of this Kenpo Culture over the years on this wonderful worldwide web, leads me to believe that often enough, the old school guys like myself, and a few other nameless oldtimers, with some notable exceptions,  out here are really not too interested in change.
> 
> Philosophically, change is bad for most folks.
> 
> If you want to study via video, or are unable to find a school that you want to study with in close proximity, then by all means, go for it.  You can always spend a little extra money here and there and go to seminars, tournaments, pizza gatherings, etc.... And find out a little more.
> 
> The idea, in my mind, of Kenpo, is that it is a life-long journey.  It's your journey (Sounds like a great title for a book )...  Get on with it and enjoy *YOUR* journey.  There will always be someone who is better than you at something, and maybe better in everything, but by the same token, there are others who are not as good.   Your journey is for you to take and enjoy.
> If *You* are better today than *you* were yesterday or last week then you've got something there.  If you ain't enjoying it, you need to get out of Kenpo and take up something else like underwater basket weaving.
> 
> One of the upsides to learning Keno via video technology is the lack of ego.
> You are simply learning what the instructor has to offer.  Not involved in his/her fan club, not involved in having to make ethical/moral decisions to support him/her and the attendent school.  Not having to join Kenpo gangs ... Simply doing the best you can to glean information that is useful to you, which is what you are trying to do via video or attending a school, anyway.
> 
> Me?  I'm saving my pennies and taking contributions to get my young butt out to California, where I plan to stand on the doorstep of Doc Chapéls school until he accepts me as a student or kicks me back to the airport.
> 
> The rest of it is dependent on your taste and desire for fame and fortune.  You want Tatum, Trejo, Sullivan, LeRoux, Planas, Chapél .... etc... etc... to sign your certificates?  You will find what you are looking for if you dig and study and learn.  There are people out there who don't do seminars, don't have websites, don't have a large following, and often simply teach out of their garage, or basement, who have the wisdom of the ages, and you won't hear their names mentioned anywhere.  But you gotta dig for it.
> 
> Having said that, I sure wouldn't depend on Seig, Alan Wortman, Dan Farmer, or anyone else who isn't a very rich, very wise, and a demonstrable Grandmaster to tell me which way is best for me.
> 
> For what it is worth, I have the IKCA tapes, have gone through them, have learned up to Black Belt and not ranked in it.  Their material is ok, but you have to understand that some of the techniques are not universally useful.  They have good concept, but won't work in all situations.  On the other hand, Tracy Karate, and Ed Parker Kenpo, with their maximalist and minimalist approaches of the old material are in the same boat.  Each has it's strength and weaknesses.
> 
> IKCA does not have much in the way of what I consider to be useful weapon defense, but then again, speaking topically, with very few notable exceptions, the other systems are more or less in the same boat.
> 
> If you are a technique horse, you are in trouble in the IKCA as they only have 55 or so techs that everything else is culled from.  They only really have two kata or forms.  But the upside to that is you can build your own Kenpo system based on what they have.  You could make a million technique system if you are into volume.   :boing2:
> 
> So go do what you wanna do and enjoy your trip... And non-illigitimi carborundum (Never let the bastards wear you down!)  :readrules
> 
> Sorry to ramble so, but I don't get out of the Missouri State Home for the Mentally Bewildered very often.
> 
> Dan Farmer
> Ex-RokuDan
> Tracy International



You're joking right?  You can certainly learn about an art from a video series.  You can certainly learn new material from a video series.  But, you can't learn whether or not you are doing it properly from video.  And your movements cannot be properly assessed or corrected via video either.

Of course Black Belt Magazine likes video training--what kind of advertising do you think pays their bills?  But Black Belt Magazine likes a lot of stuff that is crap and they don't apply much journalistic inquisitiveness to differentiate excellence from mediocrity.

And I am glad that you would not depend on me to tell you which way is best for you.  Just take my opinion for what its worth:  an opinoated middle age chubby guy with a little extra time on his hands at the office who wants to share what little wisdom he has accumulated with those unfortunate enough to have a little extra time on their hands.


----------



## Sigung86

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> You're joking right?  You can certainly learn about an art from a video series.  You can certainly learn new material from a video series.  But, you can't learn whether or not you are doing it properly from video.  And your movements cannot be properly assessed or corrected via video either.
> 
> Of course Black Belt Magazine likes video training--what kind of advertising do you think pays their bills?  But Black Belt Magazine likes a lot of stuff that is crap and they don't apply much journalistic inquisitiveness to differentiate excellence from mediocrity.
> 
> And I am glad that you would not depend on me to tell you which way is best for you.  Just take my opinion for what its worth:  an opinoated middle age chubby guy with a little extra time on his hands at the office who wants to share what little wisdom he has accumulated with those unfortunate enough to have a little extra time on their hands.



Well Alan, You kind of set your own limitations.  I never said everything is easy.  But everything is attainable.  Depends on how you see it, work it, and deal with what limits you.


----------



## Doc

Sigung86 said:
			
		

> Well Alan, You kind of set your own limitations.  I never said everything is easy.  But everything is attainable.  Depends on how you see it, work it, and deal with what limits you.


Parties over guys - somebody woke up Dan. I'm going to work.


----------



## Big Pat

:asian: 
As an observation on the responses in this thread. A few of the you need to expand your vocabulary and refrain from the cheap shots and innuendos. It only belittles you. If you have first hand experience with the IKCA material or some of it's practioners simply state in a clear and concise way what was positive or negative. Also, would you be willing to say what you write here to the person you are speaking about face to face (ie. Mr Sullivan or LeRoux)? Searcher asked for opinions about the IKCA and got some good information (good and bad) but also a lot rants and bashing-Welcome to the Kenpo community! I like, enjoy and find the IKCA material very useful. I respect Mr. Sullivan and LeRoux for their effort-Just as I respected Mr. Parker and his Chinese Kenpo. 

EKP RIP
Big Pat


----------



## The Kai

bdparsons said:
			
		

> As to the techniques, realizing of course you're only seeing approx. fifty percent of what is taught, what do feel is lacking?
> 
> Respects (really),
> Bill Parsons
> Triangle Kenpo Institute


I guess I wonder "about the cream of the crop" type of thought.  I don't know what 50 percent, I know what on tapes


----------



## Mark Weiser

I have been watching this Thread for a few days. I find it interesting that when SGM Parker was alive he was working on getting his own 40 plus Video Tape series together to do long distance training. I wonder if he was still here what he would have to say about all this nonense lol. 

I have said before. I think SGM Parker would be at the top of the best Equipment and Software to get Kenpo out to the World. I would bet $$$ he would be doing Video Testing right now. Heck he even helped make his own Videos in the past and also allowed his seminars to be taped for distrubtion. 

Hmmmm crazy world eh! lol


----------



## bdparsons

The Kai said:
			
		

> I guess I wonder "about the cream of the crop" type of thought.  I don't know what 50 percent, I know what on tapes



Sorry, I'm running a little dense today, don't get the "cream of the crop" reference.

Again, specifics about what you find lacking, other than face-to-face instruction?

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


----------



## Doc

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> I have been watching this Thread for a few days. I find it interesting that when SGM Parker was alive he was working on getting his own 40 plus Video Tape series together to do long distance training. I wonder if he was still here what he would have to say about all this nonense lol.


Yes it is true Mr. Parker wanted to finish the video series we started, and he also intended 75 plus videos to ultimately hit the market. I actually did the voice overs for about ten in a local radio station studio from scripts he provided, and was the announcer on #2 that Edmund finished.


> I have said before. I think SGM Parker would be at the top of the best Equipment and Software to get Kenpo out to the World. I would bet $$$ he would be doing Video Testing right now.


As a "beginner in EKP," that's a bet you would lose sir. While it is true the idea of video instruction in kenpo originated with Mr. Parker, his plan did not include testing by video. He never intended video to compete with established schoosl of ANY style. He felt video would be an effective tool in areas where the demographics would not support a commercial business, thus spreading Kenpo to areas where it normally would not be found. He wanted to establish small "clubs" where a group of people could get together to "study" the best way they could under the circumstances. He and I both had a history of training and teaching in small clubs, schools and colleges, and I personally have never ran a commercial school so I knew what he meant. He always said the best students are training somewhere at a YMCA, playground, or somebody's garage.

He planned to have a small corp of instructors from different parts of the country with established schools who would leave their business on a regular schedule and travel within their "area." Their focus would be to service these clubs for the purpose of administering periodic instruction and grading for rank in support of the video. The videos were only meant to provide direction in between instructor visits.

Mr. Parker was a true visionary. He even spoke of video conferancing where he could eventually cut down some of his "road time" and teach through satellite links, and reach masses of students simultaneously.


> Heck he even helped make his own Videos in the past and also allowed his seminars to be taped for distrubtion.


Not exactly. He ALLOWED his seminars to be taped as reference material for the host and students, but NEVER to be distributed or sold as some "enterprising loyalists" seem to find a reason to do a couple times a year. I have many tapes myself, but you'll never see them on Ebay. I got a bunch on "beta" I haven't looked at for years. I guess I should have them transfered. Mr. Parker always requested a copy of every video that was shot of him.


> Hmmmm crazy world eh! lol


On this we can agree - however I'm not laughing nor should any competent teacher find this situation "funny."


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

bdparsons said:
			
		

> Never once have I stated "you suck", can't say that I've been extended the same courtesy. The assumption having never met me face-to-face is that I suck at Kenpo because I chose to learn study in an unorthodox (I like neo-orthodox) manner.
> 
> Speaking of the advantages of an in person instructor (never disputed) is not discussing concepts, it's discussing logistics.
> 
> *Any thoughts on Mr. Tatum's HSP?*
> 
> Respects,
> Bill Parsons
> Triangle Kenpo Institute


I tried to comment on this the other day, but my computer at work wouldn't send it.  I'll bite wih my 2 cents.

Mr. Robert Perry was a kenpo instructor in Southern Cal, who was also a very good business man. To clarify that, he was good at getting paid and keeping his doors open. In a frank conversation about business & marketing tactics, he noted something to the effect of, "Only a very small fraction of the people who come here are of the ilk who will make a lifetime commitment to this (kenpo). The rest are on a hobby hunt, and won't be back to finish their 1st 6 months. So, if they are dead set on throwing their money away on something their going to leave behind anyway, I want to make it easy for them to throw it towards me."  

Mr. Tatum is also a (how shall we say this..) shrewd businessman. I have every confidence that the people who train regularly at his Pasadena school function with a much higher skill level and greater comprehension around kenpo than do his video students.

Regards,

Dave


----------



## Kalicombat

Big Pat said:
			
		

> :asian:
> As an observation on the responses in this thread. A few of the you need to expand your vocabulary and refrain from the cheap shots and innuendos. It only belittles you. If you have first hand experience with the IKCA material or some of it's practioners simply state in a clear and concise way what was positive or negative. Also, would you be willing to say what you write here to the person you are speaking about face to face (ie. Mr Sullivan or LeRoux)? Searcher asked for opinions about the IKCA and got some good information (good and bad) but also a lot rants and bashing-Welcome to the Kenpo community! I like, enjoy and find the IKCA material very useful. I respect Mr. Sullivan and LeRoux for their effort-Just as I respected Mr. Parker and his Chinese Kenpo.
> 
> EKP RIP
> Big Pat




Big Pat,
   I have read some of your posts, and you keep refering to Ed Parkers Kenpo as CHINESE KENPO. Why? We all understand that he started in Chinese kenpo, however, what he gave the world was not Chinese Kenpo, it was American Kenpo. In your signature, you always have EKP RIP, I get that, but if your gonna show the obvious respect as in your signature, why not show the obvious respect for what the man gave the world. He didnt give the world Ed Parker's Chinese Kenpo, he gave it Ed Parker's American Kenpo.
Is this in some way, a method of comparing your IKCA material to EPAK material? 

   As far as the IKCA, I have first hand knowledge of the organization and the material. When I started in the IKCA, there were fewer people with as much motivation and zeal for what they were doing then I had. I did the orange belt material, tested, and was on my way to a long and happy relationship in the IKCA. I enjoyed the supposed comraderie I thought was present, and the access to the systems founders. I attended an IKCA seminar, with much anticipation, and was looking forward to meeting and working out with the whole crew from California. What I found when I met Mr. Sullian and Leroux was alot different from what I had expected. Mr. Sullivan was quiet, reserved, if you will, and Vic ran things. It was obvious who were the school owners in the way that they interacted with those folks putting more money in their pockets. There werent alot of people at the seminar compared to most EPAK seminars Ive been too, but it was obvious that the IKCA was not for me. THe actual training time was more of an ego boost for the blackbelts because after an hour or so of actual review of the orange belt material, all focus turned to watching the upper belts perform the master form. I can honestly say that after driving 8 hours one way  to get to this seminar, I learned one valuable lesson and nothing else; The IKCA is based on making money. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but not what I had in mind and not what I wanted my representative organization to be focused on. Also, this was 9 or 10 years ago, when the organization was much smaller then it is now. 

   The people that I saw there that moved well, and impressed me, were, amazingly enough, previous EPAK blackbelts, and went with the IKCA after having already developed their skill and way of moving through EPAK instruction.  Those students that were strictly video students not only didnt impress me with their kenpo, but their demeanor and the whole OKIE-DOKIE attitude and response to everything Vic said was not flattering. Like I said,  I have been to alot of martial arts training seminars, and I always came away with something to add to my arsenal, this seminar was the exception.  The first day, everything focused on an informal meet and greet session, with barbeque. NO training. The second day, training began at around 10 if I remember correctly, and the whole shooting match was over by about 3. The actual amount of training time that any student could have absorbed anything new or get clarification on was about an hour tops. Then the main focus was getting ready to go out to eat and party together. I declined going out to party with any of these guys. I packed my stuff and headed home. I cant say how Sunday morning went, cause I was gone, as was my motivation for IKCA kenpo, its founders, and the members that I met. 

    In my opinion,The material the IKCA teaches is subpar to EPAK material. 55 techniques and some training drills that were not anything new, nothing special. Not nearly enough volume. Some of the techniques are flawed in their basic premise, and against unwilling opponents, will not work. The whole spontaneity argument all the IKCA adds tout as their big selling point is not any more prevelant in the IKCA material then in any martial arts system. 

   If a person so chooses to find a system of kenpo that is not EPAK, has less volume, and is based in EPAK principles, I would suggest finding a copy of John McSweeney's system on video. It is not EPAK, but employees many of the EPAK principles and concepts while offering the practitioner a different and smaller curriculum.

   WHen it all comes down to it, each of us is going to do what makes us happy. We are gonna follow the path we choose. For an ever growing group, the IKCA is that path. For me, it wasnt. I am happy with the choices I have made, as you are I am sure. Whatever works. The only thing I see as a real problem is that those IKCA'ers that keep touting the same tired quotes of "I'd Rather Have 10 Techniques,....................."  and " A punch was a PUnch ,............." are all doing so to some how validate the IKCA system to the world. Kenpo and martial arts in general are proven in combat. Not at tournaments, not on video, but in the heat of the moment,with blade drawn, bottles busted, and blood flowing. 

   IN closing, IKCA kenpo is not Ed Parker's American Kenpo. It should not be presented as such. It serves the members of its group very well, as is displayed by the popularity of its convenience. If you are not wanting to learn EPAK, then by all means have at the IKCA. If you do want to learn EPAK, then find an instructor, buy the videos, read the books, and get on board. Just dont say that your IKCA is just as good, or the SAM TING as EPAK, cause its not. No validation is needed, do your thing.  Finaly, yes, I would say anything I have said in this post , face-to-face, to anyone, including the IKCA founders.

Respectfully,
Gary Catherman


----------



## bdparsons

Gary,

Thanks for sharing your experiences with the IKCA. I'm glad you found out quickly that the IKCA was not for you.

As I read of your in-person experience I can appreciate your frustration at the time. I can also say that I have experienced almost none of the things you mentioned, and those that I have experienced are not restricted to the IKCA (such as a bit of colored belt hero worship). Over the past nine to ten years the IKCA has matured as an organization and has changed more than you think.

Finally, once again I must point out that the IKCA does not try to pass itself off as EPAK as most people currently define it. I believe that's pretty evident from Mr. Sullivan's own description. As to your assertion about being in it for the money, if that was your impression that's unfortunate. It just doesn't line up with the facts.

As you have said before, I think we shall agree to disagree. I hope you enjoy your journey.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


----------



## Mark Weiser

_*He planned to have a small corp of instructors from different parts of the country with established schools who would leave their business on a regular schedule and travel within their "area." Their focus would be to service these clubs for the purpose of administering periodic instruction and grading for rank in support of the video. The videos were only meant to provide direction in between instructor visits.*_


Wow I have been saying this to others for awhile. I wish this had occurred. Thanks for the input. Are there any Kenpo Schools or Associations that is doing this? If so Let me know.


----------



## Big Pat

Thank you Mr. Catherman for the excellent reply. I now fully understand why you are displeased with the IKCA-I would be too under those circumstances. When I started Kenpo under Mr. Jeff English in the mid seventies the school and curriculum were both listed as "Ed Parker's Chinese Kenpo". A short time later the students were offered the oppourtunity to join the IKKA and with the issuing of the Accumulative journal the curriculum was listed as "Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate" ( not yet "American"). Ed Parker's Chinese Kenpo is what I started in, so thats the term I have always used. It is interesting and I guess I do use the term to compare the two systems.

I use EKP RIP as a simple prayer for him. After all these years I still regret not taking the oppourtunites to meet Mr.Parker. I must plead youthfull ignorance. 

I fully understand the problems of training in the martial arts alone. I myself have not trained in any formal class setting in over twenty years. When I wanted to renew my Kenpo a few years ago I looked at a variety of the tapes that were available and picked the IKCA mainly because of the seniority of Mr. Sullivan and the simplicity of the system. It worked for me,things came back quicker than I thought they should-though I still move like an old weight lifter and strength coach. The only way to become truly proficient in the martial arts is to have the weekly toe to toe interaction with a wide variety of training partners. I think the IKCA system does offer the chance to learn good Kenpo basics and develop ASP (accuracy, speed and power), but it's all up to the individual to put forth the effort by themself. 

It is refreshing to hear that you would communicate face to face what you post here. I am sure you would do so in a respectful and thoughtful manner, as your post today reflects. I guaranty a lot would not or could not do so. Thank you again for posting your perspective on your IKCA experience. :asian: 

EKP RIP
Big Pat
aka Patrick Luskin


----------



## mliddy

Perhaps it is not wise to bump this topic up the list again but I have to make the following observation.

In this thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23276&referrerid=1385 many people are discussing the (in their opinion) very obvious flaws in the technique of the students being filmed.

It seems to me this is a good example of where reviewing video tapes of people performing techniques can be used as an excellent aid to learning.


----------



## MJS

mliddy said:
			
		

> Perhaps it is not wise to bump this topic up the list again but I have to make the following observation.
> 
> In this thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23276&referrerid=1385 many people are discussing the (in their opinion) very obvious flaws in the technique of the students being filmed.
> 
> It seems to me this is a good example of where reviewing video tapes of people performing techniques can be used as an excellent aid to learning.



First off...please feel free to post on any topic you wish.  If looking through some old posts, you come across something you find interesting, by all means, post a reply!  There is nothing wrong with bringing an old thread back to life! :ultracool 

As for videos...yes, they can be a good resource.  They should however be able to show some explaination of technique and be performed in a much better fashion that what was shown here.  

As I said...I tip my hat to those that put clips online.  It should be expected that people will give feedback, both good and bad.  If I went through the trouble of putting something online, I'd want it to be quality material.

Mike


----------



## Doc

Big Pat said:
			
		

> ... When I started Kenpo under Mr. Jeff English ...


I remember Jeff. Nice young man.


> in the mid seventies the school and curriculum were both listed as "Ed Parker's Chinese Kenpo". A short time later the students were offered the oppourtunity to join the IKKA and with the issuing of the Accumulative journal the curriculum was listed as "Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate" ( not yet "American").


A great many misconceptions exist around all the different names that Ed Parker called his various arts over the years. Indeed "Chinese Kenpo" was one of them. In fact the name "Ed Parker's Kenpo-Karate" was what the commercial art was called. At various points the "American" name was put in by various groups and individuals, however was never actually supposed to be used with ED Parker's name.

"Kenpo Karate" represented his art upon his first arrival  from Hawaii. That is what his instructor William Chow was calling it at the time Parker left. However it wasn't very long before Parker made a personal conversion to "Chinese Kenpo," to bring his art in line with his own direction and study. This is during the period when he wrote "Secrets of Chinese Karate." At some point he planned to "Americanize" his Chinese Kenpo and part of that process was eliminating other than English and American references in the art. But he still had not re-attached the word "karate" formally to his art out of respect for his now deep Chinese roots and teachers. 

When the decision to create a commercial component was made, then and only then did Parker re-attach the work "Karate" to his new art represented by the dissemination of "Big Red" or what was formally known as the "Accumulative Journal." However Parker purposely omitted "American" from the commercial name because, for him that represented his personal art that was an ongoing development. Over the years every combination possible of the various terms were used by various schools, instructors, and students to describe Parker's many arts, but it never ever was "Ed Parker's American Kenpo-Karate." 

Part of the confusion was created by Parker himself, who at various times in his life changed his mind and position on pretty much everything. Part of that persisted because when Parker intially designed and purchased his "new uniform crest" to replace the "Old Pine Tree" patch he inherited, it said "Kenpo Karate," and at one time everyone associated with Parker wore it. 

This too contributed confusion. When Parker had this patch made by "Okeh Embroidery" in the 6000 block in Los Angeles on South Vermont Street, they gave him a tremendous deal if he would purchase several thousand patches. He did, and subsequently became "stuck" with them and ultimately it's out dated design. Although the patch intially was "state of the art" and represented one of the best looking patches around, its large size and odd shape for the time, mandated by Parker's design was difficult to manufacture, and that's what prompted the "deal" for the larger numbers.

Years later Parker wanted to change the patches. After all he had his son Edmund who could clean up the design, and manufacturers now with computerized equipment could actually make the patch look like the original artistic representation, instead of the odd shaped, semi-rounded, and disproportionate product first created and still exists in bootleg copies today.


----------



## Big Pat

Thank you Dr. Chapel for your input.  :asian: I always like to hear the history of Mr. Parker's art. His journey and studies to improve his Kenpo are very interesting. 

EKP RIP
Big Pat


----------



## Doc

bdparsons said:
			
		

> Searcher, if you want to find out about the IKCA, talk to the IKCA. Everything is above board, no hidden agendas. There are a lot of opinions on the board concerning the IKCA, for and against. I recommend going to the source and forming your own opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> Tsk, tsk... A lot easier to take uninformed cheap shots than it is to try and speak intelligently, isn't it?
> 
> As for you, "Doc", I'd be interested to know, if you have the respect for Mr. Sullivan you say you do, have you ever taken the time to talk to him about why he chose the path he did and listen to his reasoning? I suspect it's easier to act sanctimonious, throw rocks from the sidelines and smile when you meet him face-to-face.
> 
> Bill Parsons
> Triangle Kenpo Institute



A lot of rude and nasty remarks for someone you don't know who hasn't really said anything at all. There isn't anyhthing I write here I would have a problem saying to anyone's face, including yours sir. of course I haven't said anything on this string - yet! Those who know me know I haven't never been shy about expressing my opinion, and that includes the Old Man himself.


----------



## Doc

Doc said:
			
		

> This too contributed confusion. When Parker had this patch made by "Okeh Embroidery" in the 6000 block in Los Angeles on South Vermont Street, they gave him a tremendous deal if he would purchase several thousand patches. He did, and subsequently became "stuck" with them and ultimately it's out dated design. Although the patch intially was "state of the art" and represented one of the best looking patches around, its large size and odd shape for the time, mandated by Parker's design was difficult to manufacture, and that's what prompted the "deal" for the larger numbers.


You guys know how I like to be accurate and concise, so I did some homework, looked through my files, and discovered I made an error. the name of the company that made Mr. Parker's patches was "Standard Swiss Embroidery" located in Los Angeles at 4801 So. Vermont Ave. Sorry for the error.


----------



## Jagdish

Sir:

Chinese masters tend to hardly accept students outside their community. What do you think Mr.Parker had or did they see in him that they accept him as such? Also being accepted as student is one thing but being exposed to advance material is another.

Yours,

Jagdish


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

Jagdish said:
			
		

> Sir:
> 
> Chinese masters tend to hardly accept students outside their community. What do you think Mr.Parker had or did they see in him that they accept him as such? Also being accepted as student is one thing but being exposed to advance material is another.
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Jagdish



That may still be true in Spain.  In the US, it hasn't been true for many years.


----------



## Kenpodoc

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> That may still be true in Spain.  In the US, it hasn't been true for many years.


It may not be true now but I'm pretty sure it was true 50 years ago when Mr. Parker was starting his journey in the chinese arts. I was never fortunate enough to meet him but he clearly had talent, a respect for others, a tolerance of others different than himself (rare enough now, probably extremely unusual then.), and the charisma to make others want to share with him. 

Jeff


----------



## Jagdish

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> That may still be true in Spain.  In the US, it hasn't been true for many years.



Excuse my lack of explanation. I was referring to the early years (50's).Am i clear, now?

Also one point, advance material is not showed to everybody. Even if you research chinese history, usually one pupil got to be shown the whole system.

And also do not confuse the present commercialism in chinese arts.

Yours,

Jagdish


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Jagdish said:
			
		

> Excuse my lack of explanation. I was referring to the early years (50's).Am i clear, now?
> 
> Also one point, advance material is not showed to everybody. Even if you research chinese history, usually one pupil got to be shown the whole system.
> 
> And also do not confuse the present commercialism in chinese arts.
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Jagdish


Parker Hawaiian. Not the same as White.


----------



## Doc

Jagdish said:
			
		

> Sir:
> 
> Chinese masters tend to hardly accept students outside their community.


And its still true today as much as it was then, however modern Chinese arts have taken on the same commercialism as everyone else. Even in China the government promotes a Budhists Monk Shaolin Show for the tourists and has a traveling road show much like the Cirque Du Soleil. That's where "Wu Shu" comes from. A created performance Art has taken over because it makes money and fulfills the expectations of westerners as to what "Kung fu training" is about even in the east. Real masters, Chinese or otherwise, are hard to come by everywhere.


> What do you think Mr. Parker had or did they see in him that they accept him as such?


First of all he wasn't a "haole" and the "Chow" connection meant something in certain circles. Parker was very smart, likable, and learned very fast. However the initial school where he landed was Ark Wong's Kwoon in Los Angeles's Chinatown, the same school where I started. This was an "open" school of the day but they only taught what they wanted to who they wanted. It wasn't until I left there and met Parker did he put what I had learned into a context I could begin to try to understand.


> Also being accepted as student is one thing but being exposed to advance material is another.
> Yours,
> Jagdish


And its still that way. Nothing has changed. The problem is some think what they are getting is "advanced information." Everything is relative, and from my perspective I don't see it. Of course you have to define what is advanced for yourself.

Bottom line is the sense of entitlement pervades most societies, and everyone feels they "have" the right to be able to do everything. That's why "video instruction" is so popular. Real masters think its a joke, but then others convince themselves of its worth because that is what they want to do, and they are "entitled" to somehow learn or teach and/or make money. The truth is you could go your entire life and never be exposed to someone who actually has advanced information, and you will never get it from a book or film no matter what. Of course if your standards are low enough, you may be satisfied. Yeah Bruce Lee screwed everybody and convinced people you could boune around a create your own "system." The truth is you can create your own personal art designed just for you, but teaching others is another story. For myself, I've been as lucky as any guy could be, and been exposed to and studied with significant masters. Unfortunately, for the most part, they don't exist anymore. Understand from my perspective, starting the arts in the fifties, and watching some claim "advanced or streamlined information" simply because of lineage and/or longevity, is a huge joke.


----------



## Ray

I may be way off base, but I liken using videos to using notes.  I can use my notes to refresh my memories about techniques that I learned in class; but I can't use other people's notes to learn new techniques (at least not very well).


----------



## Doc

Ray said:
			
		

> I may be way off base, but I liken using videos to using notes.  I can use my notes to refresh my memories about techniques that I learned in class; but I can't use other people's notes to learn new techniques (at least not very well).


No sir, I don't think you're off base. As a general refresher to material taught by a competent teacher, you would be correct. It is like reviewing your notes, and is an appropriate use of the technology. We do the same, but our tapes are available to all in-house without charge for classroom review. Our coursebooks are also available in class on computer for review to insure everyone is on the same page in instruction.


----------



## Kenpodoc

Doc said:
			
		

> And its still true today as much as it was then, however modern Chinese arts have taken on the same commercialism as everyone else. Even in China the government promotes a Budhists Monk Shaolin Show for the tourists and has a traveling road show much like the Cirque Du Soleil. That's where "Wu Shu" comes from. A created performance Art has taken over because it makes money and fulfills the expectations of westerners as to what "Kung fu training" is about even in the east. Real masters, Chinese or otherwise, are hard to come by everywhere.
> 
> First of all he wasn't a "haole" and the "Chow" connection meant something in certain circles. Parker was very smart, likable, and learned very fast. However the initial school where he landed was Ark Wong's Kwoon in Los Angeles's Chinatown, the same school where I started. This was an "open" school of the day but they only taught what they wanted to who they wanted. It wasn't until I left there and met Parker did he put what I had learned into a context I could begin to try to understand.
> 
> And its still that way. Nothing has changed. The problem is some think what they are getting is "advanced information." Everything is relative, and from my perspective I don't see it. Of course you have to define what is advanced for yourself.
> 
> Bottom line is the sense of entitlement pervades most societies, and everyone feels they "have" the right to be able to do everything. That's why "video instruction" is so popular. Real masters think its a joke, but then others convince themselves of its worth because that is what they want to do, and they are "entitled" to somehow learn or teach and/or make money. The truth is you could go your entire life and never be exposed to someone who actually has advanced information, and you will never get it from a book or film no matter what. Of course if your standards are low enough, you may be satisfied. Yeah Bruce Lee screwed everybody and convinced people you could boune around a create your own "system." The truth is you can create your own personal art designed just for you, but teaching others is another story. For myself, I've been as lucky as any guy could be, and been exposed to and studied with significant masters. Unfortunately, for the most part, they don't exist anymore. Understand from my perspective, starting the arts in the fifties, and watching some claim "advanced or streamlined information" simply because of lineage and/or longevity, is a huge joke.


I hate to say it Doc but your showing your age, :ultracool  when you start thinking wistfully of the good old days.   I know that there are still masters out there.  Now that you are one of the masters they seem less impressive and more human.  As to luck, I suspect you created your own luck by looking for the right teachers. You have had the good fortune to be in the right place at the right time, but others were also and they didn't choose your path.

respectfully,

Jeff :asian:


----------



## Doc

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> I hate to say it Doc but your showing your age, :ultracool  when you start thinking wistfully of the good old days.   I know that there are still masters out there.  Now that you are one of the masters they seem less impressive and more human.  As to luck, I suspect you created your own luck by looking for the right teachers. You have had the good fortune to be in the right place at the right time, but others were also and they didn't choose your path.
> 
> respectfully,
> 
> Jeff :asian:


You young whipper-snapper I'll have you know - Wait! I mean you may have a point there. But I do compare so-called modern masters with those I was exposed to, and they don't measure up. Not even close. The reason this disturbs me is because if we're suppose to be standing on the shoulders of these giants, we should be better. The educational process is suppose to be better now with better teachers, but for the most part it isn't. We are enundated by a bunch of "commercial masters" of "commercial arts" teaching to "commercial students" who think they're getting "advanced information" in strip mall schools full of children wearing significant rank and video games.

"Master" is a relative term. Oddly enough, my teacher Ed Parker didn't consider himself a master. It would be difficult for me to assume a position he didn't. History will judge us all after we're gone amd make that determination. I don't know about "master' but he was definitely a genius without quotation marks.

Thanks Doc (KenpoDoc)


----------



## Jagdish

"And its still true today as much as it was then, however modern Chinese arts have taken on the same commercialism as everyone else. Even in China the government promotes a Budhists Monk Shaolin Show for the tourists and has a traveling road show much like the Cirque Du Soleil. That's where "Wu Shu" comes from. A created performance Art has taken over because it makes money and fulfills the expectations of westerners as to what "Kung fu training" is about even in the east. Real masters, Chinese or otherwise, are hard to come by everywhere."
Sir:

I even heard that Shaolin monks get humiliated from the chinese government.I also heard that true shaolin gung fu is taught in malasia.

"First of all he wasn't a "haole" and the "Chow" connection meant something in certain circles. Parker was very smart, likable, and learned very fast. However the initial school where he landed was Ark Wong's Kwoon in Los Angeles's Chinatown, the same school where I started. This was an "open" school of the day but they only taught what they wanted to who they wanted. It wasn't until I left there and met Parker did he put what I had learned into a context I could begin to try to understand."

So professor Chow was really respected in those circles? I think i red somewhere he wasn't full chinese and due to that fact chinese people didn't accept him.Is this right?


"And its still that way. Nothing has changed. The problem is some think what they are getting is "advanced information." Everything is relative, and from my perspective I don't see it. Of course you have to define what is advanced for yourself."

Yes, many people think they are getting it. However, learning to "shudder" is learning something advance.Don't you think so?

"Bottom line is the sense of entitlement pervades most societies, and everyone feels they "have" the right to be able to do everything. That's why "video instruction" is so popular. Real masters think its a joke, but then others convince themselves of its worth because that is what they want to do, and they are "entitled" to somehow learn or teach and/or make money. The truth is you could go your entire life and never be exposed to someone who actually has advanced information, and you will never get it from a book or film no matter what. Of course if your standards are low enough, you may be satisfied. Yeah Bruce Lee screwed everybody and convinced people you could boune around a create your own "system." The truth is you can create your own personal art designed just for you, but teaching others is another story. For myself, I've been as lucky as any guy could be, and been exposed to and studied with significant masters. Unfortunately, for the most part, they don't exist anymore. Understand from my perspective, starting the arts in the fifties, and watching some claim "advanced or streamlined information" simply because of lineage and/or longevity, is a huge joke."

Re:Bruce Lee: i sometimes feel he was more traditional than most would like to know. It's also very strange that very few people can hit with near same speed & power. It's obvious he left out some pieces from the puzzle.

Using Krishnamurti's ideas he even confused more his followers.  

Re:Luck: i think it plays a big role in finding the proper teacher.Chinese people say you will find it with connections or through fate.

Yours,

Jagdish


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

So here we are...

Back to idolizing Bruce Lee... artyon: 

Soon, someone will comment that Mr. Parker knew more than Bruce Lee... :whip: 

Then, someone will ask what would happen if Royce Gracie fought Bruce Lee today... :idunno: 

Then someone else will try to get back on topic by asking...could you beat both Bruce Lee and Royce Gracie if you watched the IKCA tapes and all the DVD's of the UFC's...and practiced Kata in the air...  

Then, someone will hurl an insult... :2xBird2: 

Finally, a prudent moderator will lock the thread.   :asian:


----------



## Sapper6

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> So here we are...
> 
> Back to idolizing Bruce Lee... artyon:
> 
> Soon, someone will comment that Mr. Parker knew more than Bruce Lee... :whip:
> 
> Then, someone will ask what would happen if Royce Gracie fought Bruce Lee today... :idunno:
> 
> Then someone else will try to get back on topic by asking...could you beat both Bruce Lee and Royce Gracie if you watched the IKCA tapes and all the DVD's of the UFC's...and practiced Kata in the air...
> 
> Then, someone will hurl an insult... :2xBird2:
> 
> Finally, a prudent moderator will lock the thread.   :asian:



i'd say, if you don't have anything intelligent to say, don't post to the thread.  just because you are no longer involved in the thread, does that mean all discussion has officially ceased?

have at it guys.

@ Jagdish

hopefully someone can answer your questions without unwarranted sarcasm.  good luck in finding your answers.


----------



## Jagdish

Ja, ja, ja,...,that's was funny man! :rofl: 




			
				Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> So here we are...
> 
> Back to idolizing Bruce Lee... artyon:
> 
> Soon, someone will comment that Mr. Parker knew more than Bruce Lee... :whip:
> 
> Then, someone will ask what would happen if Royce Gracie fought Bruce Lee today... :idunno:
> 
> Then someone else will try to get back on topic by asking...could you beat both Bruce Lee and Royce Gracie if you watched the IKCA tapes and all the DVD's of the UFC's...and practiced Kata in the air...
> 
> Then, someone will hurl an insult... :2xBird2:
> 
> Finally, a prudent moderator will lock the thread.   :asian:


----------



## The Kai

Did Bruce Lee hit that hard?

Kinda odd to think of him as a traditionalist, when every interview he talked of self creating-not that he had much choice


----------



## Jagdish

The Kai said:
			
		

> Did Bruce Lee hit that hard?
> 
> Kinda odd to think of him as a traditionalist, when every interview he talked of self creating-not that he had much choice



By some accounts, yes, he did hit hard. He had Fali.

Traditionalist:yes, it' a little bit odd but "here , you call me sifu" and "in china some would find themselves with their front teeth on the floor" is quite disturbing.

Well, history had more warriors...  

Yours,

Jagdish


----------



## kenposikh

Hi Jagdish,

Amrik her from the UK I believe we met in Spain several years ago. If so how you doing!!!


----------



## The Kai

Jagdish said:
			
		

> By some accounts, yes, he did hit hard. He had Fali.
> 
> Traditionalist:yes, it' a little bit odd but "here , you call me sifu" and "in china some would find themselves with their front teeth on the floor" is quite disturbing.
> 
> Well, history had more warriors...
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Jagdish


What is Fali?  I really don't unerstand the second part of your post at all!  If BL hit so hard you would assume that the 1 street fight he got into he would have dropped the guy!


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

And we are arguing about Bruce Lee's punching ability because...? :idunno:


----------



## Jagdish

kenposikh said:
			
		

> Hi Jagdish,
> 
> Amrik her from the UK I believe we met in Spain several years ago. If so how you doing!!!




Yeah Amrik:

Things are going great. How is everything there? I usually visit your website every 1/2 months.great site,man!

Yours,

Jagdish


----------



## Jagdish

The Kai said:
			
		

> What is Fali?  I really don't unerstand the second part of your post at all!  If BL hit so hard you would assume that the 1 street fight he got into he would have dropped the guy!




Power doesn't mean timing, does it?

Fali is issuing power.

Yours,

Jagdish


----------



## Jagdish

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> And we are arguing about Bruce Lee's punching ability because...? :idunno:



...we are crazy? :uhyeah:  :rofl: 


I'm sorry ,sir.   :asian: 

Jagdish


----------



## The Kai

Power is power


----------



## Jagdish

The Kai said:
			
		

> Power is power



Better applied power... :lol: 

Re:Traditionalism: The way he talked sometimes, makes you wonder, like the phrases posted in my previous post.

Sorry for any mistake.

Jagdish


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

Jagdish said:
			
		

> Better applied power... :lol:
> 
> 
> Re:Traditionalism: The way he talked sometimes, makes you wonder, like the phrases posted in my previous post.
> 
> Sorry for any mistake.
> 
> Jagdish




Yes...I remember now..."the style of no style"..."the art of fighting without fighting"

Coming soon...the art of "posting without posting" :yinyang:


----------



## searcher

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Yes...I remember now..."the style of no style"..."the art of fighting without fighting"
> 
> Coming soon...the art of "posting without posting" :yinyang:


:rofl:  Good one.  Not to change the subject, but what does Bruse Lee have to do with the IKCA.   I know he knew SGM Parker, but it is really not on post.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

searcher said:
			
		

> :rofl:  Good one.  Not to change the subject, but what does Bruse Lee have to do with the IKCA.   I know he knew SGM Parker, but it is really not on post.



Yes, but Ed Parker knew Bruce Lee...and knew more than Bruce Lee...


----------



## lonekimono10

for the man who wanted to know about power? have you ever hear of BUM?
 BACK UP MASS, if you don't know what that is, just think of a train pulling alot of cars going real fast, than trying to stop,have you ever hear what that sounds like??
  that,s power,it's the same in kenpo,i'll let somebody else commit.


----------



## Jagdish

searcher said:
			
		

> :rofl:  Good one.  Not to change the subject, but what does Bruse Lee have to do with the IKCA.   I know he knew SGM Parker, but it is really not on post.



Jerry Poteet is the JKD instructor of Vic Le Roux.

Jagdish


----------



## Jagdish

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Yes, but Ed Parker knew Bruce Lee...and knew more than Bruce Lee...



Yes, Ed Parker knew more than B.L.  

Jagdish


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

Jagdish said:
			
		

> Yes, Ed Parker knew more than B.L.
> 
> Jagdish



Do you think Bruce Lee could beat Royce Gracie? :wink2:


----------



## lonekimono10

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Do you think Bruce Lee could beat Royce Gracie? :wink2:


  Hey Alan i think YOU can beat both of them


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> Hey Alan i think YOU can beat both of them



No way!  Not until after I've studied all the IKCA videos, UFC DVD's, and practiced all my Katas before a video camera!


----------



## Doc

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Do you think Bruce Lee could beat Royce Gracie? :wink2:


Not likely. Bruce Lee is DEAD.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

Doc said:
			
		

> Not likely. Bruce Lee is DEAD.



So are you saying Bruce Lee wouldn't tap to an armbar? :ultracool


----------



## Doc

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> So are you saying Bruce Lee wouldn't tap to an armbar? :ultracool


Well actually Ed Parker addressed that issue and Bruce agreed and sent a message to Parker in the movie Chinese Connection. The big Russian had Bruce down in an arm-bar and Bruce couldn't get out. Then the light came on and Bruce opened his mouth wide and bit down on his leg as hard as he could. The Russian released, let him go, and jumped up wide-eyed.

That was an in-joke between Parker and Bruce. Later that in-joke ran its course in the movie Enter The Dragon, when Bruce did the same lock on Sammo Hung, who instead of biting, tapped out. Bruce then stood up and schrugged his shoulders.

Bruce spent a short time with Wally Jay, who pronounced him a "nice kid, but don't know very much." Bruce was ultimately taught to grapple by Gene LeBell, and employed LeBell as the primary stunt man on the Green Hornet Series. LeBell has been doing stunts ever since, and still is.

I wish you guys would stop rattling my memory.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

Thanks Doc.  Actually, I was just making a joke...that since he was dead, he wouldn't be able to tap...some Kenpo people are soooo serious.


----------



## Doc

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Thanks Doc.  Actually, I was just making a joke...that since he was dead, he wouldn't be able to tap...some Kenpo people are soooo serious.


Actually I have to spit things out when I think of them or they could be gone forever. That's why old people seem to ramble. What were you saying? Was I through?


----------



## Jagdish

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Do you think Bruce Lee could beat Royce Gracie? :wink2:



You should have better refer to RICKSON Gracie.LOL!

Jagdish


----------



## Jagdish

Sir:

I think you should write a book! After reding your post i am more thirsty for more. LOL.

Thanks for your posts.

Jagdish




			
				Doc said:
			
		

> Well actually Ed Parker addressed that issue and Bruce agreed and sent a message to Parker in the movie Chinese Connection. The big Russian had Bruce down in an arm-bar and Bruce couldn't get out. Then the light came on and Bruce opened his mouth wide and bit down on his leg as hard as he could. The Russian released, let him go, and jumped up wide-eyed.
> 
> That was an in-joke between Parker and Bruce. Later that in-joke ran its course in the movie Enter The Dragon, when Bruce did the same lock on Sammo Hung, who instead of biting, tapped out. Bruce then stood up and schrugged his shoulders.
> 
> Bruce spent a short time with Wally Jay, who pronounced him a "nice kid, but don't know very much." Bruce was ultimately taught to grapple by Gene LeBell, and employed LeBell as the primary stunt man on the Green Hornet Series. LeBell has been doing stunts ever since, and still is.
> 
> I wish you guys would stop rattling my memory.


----------



## Jagdish

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> No way!  Not until after I've studied all the IKCA videos, UFC DVD's, and practiced all my Katas before a video camera!




Don't forget to say that a spirit came in your dreams and taught you secret moves. :uhyeah:  :lol:    :cheers:


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Sapper6 said:


> Parker, just like any instructor, will promote based upon what they saw in technique application. is there rule that the grading instructor must be standing within 10 feet of the student? and i beleive that each technique the student sends in to Sullivan must be performed on a partner. have you ever performed a technique on a non-martial artist in practice? they don't quite react the way you'd prefer them to, which in turn, makes it more difficult to execute that technique


I came accross this thread and checked it out (mainly because my last name happens to be Sullivan) and I just wanted to comment on this paragraph.  Yes, a partner is required.  According to their website http://www.karateconnection.com/, an allowance to perform the moves on a training dummy can be made, but that must be approved and according to the website, is not the norm.

Daniel


----------



## Doc

Celtic Tiger said:


> I came accross this thread and checked it out (mainly because my last name happens to be Sullivan) and I just wanted to comment on this paragraph.  Yes, a partner is required.  According to their website http://www.karateconnection.com/, an allowance to perform the moves on a training dummy can be made, but that must be approved and according to the website, is not the norm.
> 
> Daniel



All the rationales in the world can be made to justify video training, unfortunately it is what it is.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

I neither justify nor put down.  

I was going to post a thread asking about Mr. Sullivan, as I read an article about him recently, but I figured I'd run a search, which is how I wound up here.  Read all of it, beginning to end.  An interesting read indeed.

Daniel


----------



## shihansmurf

Are there written manuals available for the IKCA in any form?

Mark


----------



## Sigung86

II'm trying to sneak in here before Old Fat sees me.  Just want to say, after having my experience with the IKCA tapes, you probably don't want to get too many generations away from the material.  I wrote them all out in the Tracy Format about 5 years ago, taking the moves and kata directly from the tapes (sometimes my life is a little boring...).  Went back and found the written material just after Christmas, and couldn't really make heads or "tales" out of some of the techniques.

So, the answer probably is no.  :angel:


----------



## Carol

Sigung86 said:


> II'm trying to sneak in here before Old Fat sees me.  Just want to say, after having my experience with the IKCA tapes, you probably don't want to get too many generations away from the material.  I wrote them all out in the Tracy Format about 5 years ago, taking the moves and kata directly from the tapes (sometimes my life is a little boring...).  Went back and found the written material just after Christmas, and couldn't really make heads or "tales" out of some of the techniques.
> 
> So, the answer probably is no.  :angel:



Old Fat???  

I'm tellin' ...


----------



## shihansmurf

Sigung86 said:


> II'm trying to sneak in here before Old Fat sees me. Just want to say, after having my experience with the IKCA tapes, you probably don't want to get too many generations away from the material. I wrote them all out in the Tracy Format about 5 years ago, taking the moves and kata directly from the tapes (sometimes my life is a little boring...). Went back and found the written material just after Christmas, and couldn't really make heads or "tales" out of some of the techniques.
> 
> So, the answer probably is no. :angel:


 
I found the Orange tape at a rummage sale and for ten bucks I thought I'd give it a try. At the least I thought I could see what all this fuss is about. I'm not really convinced on the video testing format but I'm not looking to collect belts, so I guess its not really a factor for me. 

After watching the tape and working through the material I gotta say I'm impressed with the techs, the kata is acceptable for a beginner form, but the production quality is so-so (but to be fair the tape was produced in what, 1990?), however on their website there doesn't seem to be any way to get any written versions. I find this to be a bit limiting as I love having a written manual to work with during my private training time and dislike having a tv on while I train. I find it distracting.

Do the 55 techs in the IKCA have direct analogs in Tracy or Parker Kenpo or very closely mirror techs or are they very distinct?

Mark


----------



## IWishToLearn

shihansmurf said:


> Do the 55 techs in the IKCA have direct analogs in Tracy or Parker Kenpo or very closely mirror techs or are they very distinct?
> 
> Mark



There are techs in the IKCA system that are close analogs of an existing Parker technique, however the vast majority have a piece from tech x, a piece from tech y, etc. Mr. Sullivan did not agree with the motion kenpo philosophy and felt that 15 or 16 moves in a tech would be damn near impossible to pull off and therefore he and Mr. Le Roux restructured the Parker System they were taught into the IKCA curriculum. The IKCA base techniques are designed to be able to be modified on the fly to adapt to a changing situation on the street - kinda you start a tech and if the circumstances change based on what you do and how they react, switch to another tech midflow that fits the situation. Or pull from whatever techs you like to create a spontaneous answer to the problem.

There is no "officially sanctioned" written curriculum because everyone seems to interpret what they see differently, so codifying the video (or in person) instruction is vastly difficult for an extremely mixed audience.

Having said that, I have written curriculum for my own students, and I do not teach only the base IKCA curriculum in my school. Like any system, there are some things that the IKCA curriculum doesn't address adequately for my standards, and there are some better ways of doing things. The base IKCA system is a great foundation for learning kenpo, as are the Parker system, the Tracy system, TRACO, and just about any other version of kenpo. It's all about how much you put into it. If you want a little out of it, put a little into it. If you want to get a lot out, you've got to put a lot in.


----------



## GBlues

First of all about the video games comment. Uhmmm....but you can die as many times as you want in a video game and comeback to life until you get it right. How is that saying that they are getting faster? On my 360 I only have 8 buttons I can push plus two more on the analog controllers, ( the two joysticks, they can double as buttons). So really I only have 10 choices to make to any given situation in a video game, and most of the time your not going to use all of them. So video game analogy as it relates to martial arts techniques, now officially debunked in my opinion. NOT THE SAME THING.

Fewer techniques does equate to faster reaction time. It makes sense guys, those that want to argue that, ok, your opinion. YOu can argue till your blue in the face that the moon is made of green cheese that won't make it true. Just means that's what you believe. 

Can you learn from videos? In my opinion absolutely if you put the time in, why wouldn't you? If your getting feedback to help to correct you, why couldn't you get proficient? It's not like the technique in the video is going to change everytime that you rewatch it. So yeah I think that you could. Attention to detail is key.

Now, to answer another question NO. Practicing 15 different versions of a technique a 1,000 times is not going to make you as good as the guy who only has one that he's practiced a 1,000 times. Only makes sense. 15 versions regardless of how small the variations, means you have to practice that technique 15,000 times to be as good with yours, as the guy with one. Answer another question that's why it takes 5-10 years to get proficient at AKK because you have 50,000 variations that you have to learn. Which makes no sense. Other than if your in it for the money. I mean ok. 50,000 variotions, means you've probably done every technique, 5,000,000 times, and your still only a blue belt. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 LOL! Last sentence there was a joke guys don't take it too hard.

Did Ed Parker know more than Bruce Lee? In kenpo karate I would imagine he did. That was his specialty. When it comes to Kung-Fu or Wing Chun, probably not. Case settled I think.

Bruce Lee didn't create a new martial art. He created his own personal style. He gave it a name, which even he regretted doing. Now people learn JKD to learn to fight like Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee was for his time like Ed Parker a special individual, and unless you have the same physical attributes as these two individuals. There martial arts or styles aren't going to work the same way for you. That's why martial arts have to be individualized. You learn the basics, and then you make it your own. My opinion but maybe that's why some people don't appear to have the same power and speed as Bruce Lee, the have different attributes. *SHRUG*

IF Bruce Lee was alive, yeah maybe he might have stomped Royce Gracie, maybe not, we'll never know. I can guarantee Royce would win today, cause like another poster stated, the guys dead.

Now I almost forgot. I love when people come on here and they start, griping about video lessons or learn at home courses, and they say, well so and so doesn't do that. Only to find out that so and so DOES do that. Just because YOU don't do it, OR YOUR school doesn't do that. Doesn't make it wrong or ineffective. It just means that YOU don't do it. Just because YOU can't learn from a video, doesn't mean that JOHNNY down the street CAN'T. It only means that YOU can't.

Now the I have seen the IKC videos. There good for what they are. I have been to schools of various martial arts checking them out. I have seen good students and bad. I've seen good kenpo practitioners and bad. NOt always bad kenpo technique either mind you. But, bad etiquette. THe I'm a badass syndrome, because he's a 4th degree blackbelt, and he wants to brag about how many fights he's won. :erg: I would say that having a partner is key to training with the IKC videos. Without one, it would be very hard to learn and to test if that is what you want to do. Furthermore, they do offer you the ability to pay the testing fee, and make arraingements with an IKC school to simply go there and take your test live with an instructor. You don't necassarily have to do a video test. You will for blackbelt is my understanding. THat goes before a board, but the other stuff. Hey they will even help you find a training partner. So how bad can it be. It seems alot better than alot of other stuff out there. OR at least just as good. That's my opinion do with it what you will. :asian:


----------



## Doc

Lots of stuff here. I'm on the run, so I'll just address two points.


GBlues said:


> Did Ed Parker know more than Bruce Lee? In kenpo karate I would imagine he did. That was his specialty. When it comes to Kung-Fu or Wing Chun, probably not. Case settled I think.


Actually Bruce didn't know very much at all. What he had was incredible physical talent. Bruce began studying the arts as an extension of his dancing skills, to learn how to fight. he began Wing Chun training around the age of sixteen. By the age of nineteen he was a college student in Seattle Washington, and his own teacher. No one in the Traditional Chinese Community would deal with him because he was so cocky and somewhat disrespectful. So he bounced around learning what he could from established master like Ed Parker. When Bruce gave his famous demo at the IKC, he was 24 years old. Parker had been a black belt since 1953 in 4 different arts, studying since since he was 9, and had reputable teachers, and collaborators the entire time, including his original kenpo teacher, Kwai Sun, and Sijo Adriano Emperado.


> Bruce Lee didn't create a new martial art. He created his own personal style. He gave it a name, which even he regretted doing. Now people learn JKD to learn to fight like Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee was for his time like Ed Parker a special individual, and unless you have the same physical attributes as these two individuals. There martial arts or styles aren't going to work the same way for you.


Yes they can, if you have the knowledge that drives the physical attributes. I may be built like a linebacker, but that don't make me a great tackler.


> That's why martial arts have to be individualized. You learn the basics, and then you make it your own. My opinion but maybe that's why some people don't appear to have the same power and speed as Bruce Lee, the have different attributes. *SHRUG*


Close. Maybe they don't know what they know as well. 

"The more you know, the more you know."


----------



## GBlues

Doc said:


> Lots of stuff here. I'm on the run, so I'll just address two points.
> 
> Actually Bruce didn't know very much at all. What he had was incredible physical talent. Bruce began studying the arts as an extension of his dancing skills, to learn how to fight. he began Wing Chun training around the age of sixteen. By the age of nineteen he was a college student in Seattle Washington, and his own teacher. No one in the Traditional Chinese Community would deal with him because he was so cocky and somewhat disrespectful. So he bounced around learning what he could from established master like Ed Parker. When Bruce gave his famous demo at the IKC, he was 24 years old. Parker had been a black belt since 1953 in 4 different arts, studying since since he was 9, and had reputable teachers, and collaborators the entire time, including his original kenpo teacher, Kwai Sun, and Sijo Adriano Emperado.
> 
> Yes they can, if you have the knowledge that drives the physical attributes. I may be built like a linebacker, but that don't make me a great tackler.
> 
> Close. Maybe they don't know what they know as well.
> 
> "The more you know, the more you know."


 
Hmmmm....that's really interesting actually. I mean everything I ever read about Bruce says that he was studying martial arts before he was 14. I seem to recall a book that said he was in trouble all of the time for fighting. That being said, I do believe he trained with Yip Man didn't he? That's a pretty reputable master in the Wing Chun community I do believe. Also isn't physical talent one of those things that either makes you good or makes you great? I see alot of this, and have even met a few martial artists that swear had they had the chance they'd of mopped the floor with Bruce Lee. Very easy thing to say when a man is dead. I think there is a lot jealousy that surrounds him, in the regard that he got and still does get a lot of attention for his martial arts prowess. Tickles me
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

Knowledge of what drives a physical attribute is not the same as having a physical attribute. Just because you know what makes someone fast, does not mean your going to be fast. It just means you know what makes you fast. In other words economy of motion, will make you quicker,faster. However, someone else that is or was naturally faster than you, if he has the same training in economy of motion, is still going to beat you to the punch. He was naturally faster, and will remain that way, provided proper training. SO the way he fights is not going to work for you. You WILL have to change things here and there to fit your body style, and attributes. Period. They may be minor changes, but you will have too. Every person is different and every person has different strengths and weaknesses.

Or maybe they do know what they know as well, but they don't have the attributes to execute like the master. There are things that will work for me because of my particular abilities that may not work for you because of yours. THere is no art that is universally applicable to every person. If that were true, there would only be one martial art. There would be no need for more than that.

"The more you know, the more you know", is not necassarily a good thing when it comes to martial arts. If you look, most martial arts when compared to another martial art, are actually very simular in appearance many times. So just because you seek to learn more, is not necassarily a good thing. If you know 5,000 ways to counter a kick, how many more ways do you need? Are you then perhaps inadvertantely adding a lot of confusion, or are you adding something of value. IF it's a counter you do not know, or a gap in your training. Ok I can see it, but if it's just to add, because you want to add more, ( and excuse the word), crap, then what was the point? You've added another thing for your brain to sort out, in a high stress, adrenalized situation. You don't have time for that. Think of your brain as a computer. THe more information you add to your computer the more information that it has to sort out, and eventually all those little bytes of information, slow your computer down. Until you have to either delete some stuff or wipe it clean and start over again. Now computers have RAM which is Random Access Memory. There are various types and sizes of RAM. 1gig, 2gig, 3, etc. The gig tells you how much random access memory that it can process, and therefore makes your computer faster. However, if you have too much info coming in and not enough RAM you lag. SO, our brain works much this same way. We have our conscious brain which can make various everyday decisions. IT's our reasoning brain. You can probably make 3 to 4 decisions at once with the conscious brain. THousands of bits of information take forever to process with the conscious brain. So we have the sub-conscious brain. WHich is like our RAM, much faster. It can make thousands of choices and decisions that your conscious brain can not make. However, the more bits we store in our sub-conscious the more info it has to sift through to get to the proper response. So if I know 3 or 4 really good techniques that will work for a particular attack, how much faster will my sub-conscious process that, to tell my body what to do? As opposed to having to sort through thousands or even just 300 techniques? A lot longer compared to the 3 or 4 for each attack. Knowledge is good, and it is always good to no more, but the question then is am I adding something of value or just adding to be adding?:asian:


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## celtic_crippler

Doc said:


> "The more you know, the more you know."


 
True, but the more I know the more I realize I don't know all that much. LOL :uhohh:


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## punisher73

GBlues said:


> Hmmmm....that's really interesting actually. I mean everything I ever read about Bruce says that he was studying martial arts before he was 14. I seem to recall a book that said he was in trouble all of the time for fighting. That being said, I do believe he trained with Yip Man didn't he? That's a pretty reputable master in the Wing Chun community I do believe. Also isn't physical talent one of those things that either makes you good or makes you great? I see alot of this, and have even met a few martial artists that swear had they had the chance they'd of mopped the floor with Bruce Lee. Very easy thing to say when a man is dead. I think there is a lot jealousy that surrounds him, in the regard that he got and still does get a lot of attention for his martial arts prowess. Tickles me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


 
Bruce Lee trained at Yip Man's school, but I have read some accounts that because Yip Man was very traditional he did not personally teach Bruce because he was not full blooded Chinese (His mother was half-german, half-chinese).  It is also known that Bruce did not learn the upper levels of Wing Chun during his time with Yip Man.  

Bruce's first martial art was Tai Chi that his father taught him.  I have read that he started his Wing Chun training between 12-14 yrs old after getting beat up by a local gang.  Bruce did get into "turf wars" with the local gangs and "came to the attention of the police" as some sources say.  Because Bruce Lee was born in the US (thus being a US citizen), he was sent here when he was 19 yrs old.  So even if he started when he was 13, he only had about 6 yrs of training.

Many of the masters who worked with Lee have stated the same thing that Doc has said.  Bruce Lee was a talented person and picked up ALOT of stuff very quickly.  But, his MA skill was not very deep to what he knew.


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## Daniel Sullivan

GBlues said:


> Now I almost forgot. I love when people come on here and they start, griping about video lessons or learn at home courses, and they say, well so and so doesn't do that. Only to find out that so and so DOES do that. Just because YOU don't do it, OR YOUR school doesn't do that. Doesn't make it wrong or ineffective. It just means that YOU don't do it. Just because YOU can't learn from a video, doesn't mean that JOHNNY down the street CAN'T. It only means that YOU can't.


I agree with this to a great extent.  Different people learn most effectively through different senses.  Some people see it and pick it up; these are visual learners.  Others depend greatly on the verbal content and others need to do something with a literal guiding hand twenty times before they can do it themselves even once.

I have trained in places and seen classes where the students may as well have been watching a video.  The instructor was physically present in the room, so yes, it was an in person instructor, but they didn't do anything beyond showing the techiques to the class visually.  Needless to say, the visual learners were able to get much more out of these classes than everyone else.  A school I trained at years ago had an instructor who taught that way and aside from myself and three others, everyone hated his classes.  I preferred the other classes, but didn't hate this guys.  But I am also a visual learner.  If he had been the only instructor, I would have gone elsewhere, as there were times when I needed more than just a visual demonstration.

I wish that I could say that that sort of instruction wasn't the norm, and maybe it isn't, but it is much more commonplace than it should be, particularly in my area, where McDojos are all over the place.  Compared to some very horrible schools I've seen (thankfully not too many) and heard about (more than I'd have cared to know existed), DVD instruction would be preferable.  

I havent seen the IKCA vids, so I have no comment on them specifically.  Regarding video instruction, I think that the key things to remember with a DVD instructional class are: 

Firstly, knowing what kind of learner you are.  If you can't pick up things visually, then a DVD instructional course is a complete waste of money.  

Secondly, being aware of the limitations of correspondence learning is important: it isn't the same as having an instructor there.  You can't ask it a question and get an immediate answer and it cannot critique you.

Thirdly, student with a solid background in either the same style or several similar styles will get a lot more out of a DVD instructional than a novice.  An advanced student will already have a good understanding of body mechanics, timing and distance, chambering, sparring and practicing with a resisting opponent and such that someone with no previous experience in any martial art will have.  I have a large amount of books and some videos and those have provided a lot of useful and helpful insights to me during my training.  But I feel that I get a lot more out of them because I already know what I'm looking at than I would have if I'd never set foot in a dojo.

Daniel


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## Sigung86

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I agree with this to a great extent. Different people learn most effectively through different senses. Some people see it and pick it up; these are visual learners. Others depend greatly on the verbal content and others need to do something with a literal guiding hand twenty times before they can do it themselves even once.
> 
> I have trained in places and seen classes where the students may as well have been watching a video. The instructor was physically present in the room, so yes, it was an in person instructor, but they didn't do anything beyond showing the techiques to the class visually. Needless to say, the visual learners were able to get much more out of these classes than everyone else. A school I trained at years ago had an instructor who taught that way and aside from myself and three others, everyone hated his classes. I preferred the other classes, but didn't hate this guys. But I am also a visual learner. If he had been the only instructor, I would have gone elsewhere, as there were times when I needed more than just a visual demonstration.
> 
> I wish that I could say that that sort of instruction wasn't the norm, and maybe it isn't, but it is much more commonplace than it should be, particularly in my area, where McDojos are all over the place. Compared to some very horrible schools I've seen (thankfully not too many) and heard about (more than I'd have cared to know existed), DVD instruction would be preferable.
> 
> I havent seen the IKCA vids, so I have no comment on them specifically. Regarding video instruction, I think that the key things to remember with a DVD instructional class are:
> 
> Firstly, knowing what kind of learner you are. If you can't pick up things visually, then a DVD instructional course is a complete waste of money.
> 
> Secondly, being aware of the limitations of correspondence learning is important: it isn't the same as having an instructor there. You can't ask it a question and get an immediate answer and it cannot critique you.
> 
> Thirdly, student with a solid background in either the same style or several similar styles will get a lot more out of a DVD instructional than a novice. An advanced student will already have a good understanding of body mechanics, timing and distance, chambering, sparring and practicing with a resisting opponent and such that someone with no previous experience in any martial art will have. I have a large amount of books and some videos and those have provided a lot of useful and helpful insights to me during my training. But I feel that I get a lot more out of them because I already know what I'm looking at than I would have if I'd never set foot in a dojo.
> 
> Daniel


 
On the other hand... If they're happy with it, what's the rub?


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## Daniel Sullivan

Sigung86 said:


> On the other hand... If they're happy with it, what's the rub?


I don't actually see a rub. 

I do think that with any sort of DVD instruction it really helps to have a good foundation, but at the same time, I taught myself to play guitar from a video series (Mel Bay, if I recall) and touched base with a coworker who plays semi-pro about some technique questions and some feedback, and I got to where I could do what I had set out to do and felt that it was money well spent.  I had no time to take guitar lessons at the time, still really don't, but at that time, I had zero, thus the vids.

Daniel


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## Sigung86

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I don't actually see a rub.
> 
> I do think that with any sort of DVD instruction it really helps to have a good foundation, but at the same time, I taught myself to play guitar from a video series (Mel Bay, if I recall) and touched base with a coworker who plays semi-pro about some technique questions and some feedback, and I got to where I could do what I had set out to do and felt that it was money well spent. I had no time to take guitar lessons at the time, still really don't, but at that time, I had zero, thus the vids.
> 
> Daniel


 

Well... There ya go.  Ddi the same thing many years ago, and it was with Mel Bay.  :uhyeah:


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## bdparsons

GBlues said:


> Furthermore, they do offer you the ability to pay the testing fee, and make arraingements with an IKC school to simply go there and take your test live with an instructor.



If this statement is referring to the IKCA it is incorrect.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## Doc

punisher73 said:


> Many of the masters who worked with Lee have stated the same thing that Doc has said.  Bruce Lee was a talented person and picked up ALOT of stuff very quickly.  But, his MA skill was not very deep to what he knew.



Three people I heard say that were Ed Parker, Wally Jay, and Gene LeBell. His training was minimal. But all of the above also said he was the most gifted athlete they had ever seen for his size. Mr. Parker said, "If you show the kid something, the first time he tries it, he's almost as good as you. The second time he tries it, he might be as good as you. And the third time, unless you're really good, he'll be better than you."


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## Doc

IWishToLearn said:


> There are techs in the IKCA system that are close analogs of an existing Parker technique, however the vast majority have a piece from tech x, a piece from tech y, etc. Mr. Sullivan did not agree with the motion kenpo philosophy and felt that 15 or 16 moves in a tech would be damn near impossible to pull off and therefore he and Mr. Le Roux restructured the Parker System they were taught into the IKCA curriculum. The IKCA base techniques are designed to be able to be modified on the fly to adapt to a changing situation on the street - kinda you start a tech and if the circumstances change based on what you do and how they react, switch to another tech midflow that fits the situation. Or pull from whatever techs you like to create a spontaneous answer to the problem.



Very well said sir. Most have the notion that Chuck Sullivan "watered down" the system they are familiar with for the video system. This is not true. Chuck was on the ground when Parker started up in Pasadena, and was there as he began his personal exploration and expansion of his knowledge.

And, as I've written many times before, *None* of the seniors of the art followed Ed Parker down the commercial Motion-Kenpo road. *No one*. The majority that some call seniors were either born into, or began in the motion-Kenpo era. Those that pre-date it for the most part, didn't like it and resigned themselves to Ed Parker's previous teaching which worked and served them well.

While what Mr. Sullivan presents is in fact "re-structured," it is a re-structuring of the previous material he learned, *not* the Motion-based Kenpo of "Big Red."

Further, the idea of "video" supported learning originated with Ed Parker. It was his idea, and it was on the drawing board for small market areas that didn't have enough population to support a commercial school. However, Parker intended that these "video clubs" would be supported by a roving team of instructors in pre-determined increments of time, to correct, guide, and promote students. Chuck SUllivan modified the program to suit his needs. 

And once again for the record, I didn't agree with Mr. Parker either on the subject and told him so, To which he replied, "Ron, you're just old school hard ***." To which I replied, "Just like you." He smiled, and said, "Yeah, but business is business." With that, I could not argue.

Also for the record, I've seen video of many of the video students, and a lot of them look a whole bunch better than a whole host of folks from brick and 
mortar schools. A whole lot better. I still don't think it's for me, and I know what I teach can't be learned that way, but a fact is a fact. So be careful if you throw stones, you just might be living in a glass house yourself and not know it.


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## distalero

So I have a question, Doc, and I think I know part of the answer, but I would appreciate any confirmation you can offer. I studied what was variously billed as Ed Parker's Kenpo, and/or as Ed Parker's Chinese Karate/Kenpo, in northern California, circa '68, '69, and this was prior to the infamous Big Red Binder. We didn't see the binder make it's appearance until the early to mid '70s, at which point the few of us who were locally senior walked away. So where does this put me in the general scheme of history?

I think in the past you characterized some groups as part of the "backwaters" of Kenpo, which I don't take offense to at all because it's a fair description. But nonetheless, backwater though it was, does this mean I was born into a pre Motion Kenpo?  And if so, what period could I claim with some general accuracy?

Appreciate any insight you have.


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## Doc

distalero said:


> So I have a question, Doc, and I think I know part of the answer, but I would appreciate any confirmation you can offer. I studied what was variously billed as Ed Parker's Kenpo, and/or as Ed Parker's Chinese Karate/Kenpo, in northern California, circa '68, '69, and this was prior to the infamous Big Red Binder. We didn't see the binder make it's appearance until the early to mid '70s, at which point the few of us who were locally senior walked away. So where does this put me in the general scheme of history?


Well it makes you pre-commercial Kenpo, but where you were in the Kenpo is dependent upon what, and how your teachers taught.


> I think in the past you characterized some groups as part of the "backwaters" of Kenpo, which I don't take offense to at all because it's a fair description.


No sir, wasn't me. I have never used such a term, nor have I disparaged any of the pre-commercial, pre-motion Kenpo students. Remember, I myself started Kenpo with Mr. Parker in 1963, so the description would include me as well.


> But nonetheless, backwater though it was, does this mean I was born into a pre Motion Kenpo?  And if so, what period could I claim with some general accuracy?


First, I don't think it was "backwater." The best of what the Parker Lineage had to offer came from those days. It was a time before all the little soccer kids, women, belt programs, and everything became a sales pitch starting with 5 private lessons for 39.95 before a group contract. Before everything was about "closing." It was a cross between health spa commercialism, and dance studio savvy sales.

None of the seniors made the switch. All of them remained "old school" Kenpo, what ever you call it.

Back then classes were rough and tough, and nobody cared if your feelings got hurt ,and you didn't get promoted for showing up. Technique wasn't always the greatest, and maybe you didn't know the name of something, but one thing was for sure, you knew how to make it work because you had to.

It was a time before sophistication, but everybody that came through the door had to prove they physically belonged. The art evolved intellectually, but de-evolved physically. 

Now you have a bunch of wannabe intellectual hypothetical Kenpo students, that can name every term, and recite category completions backwards, perform sets and forms in their sleep, and can't fight there way out of their own bathroom after a piss in the middle of the night.

I'd rather have you watch my 6 any day. Where ever you are in Kenpo history, don't let any of the new kenpo nerds who can't fight talk trash because they know all the definitions, and all you can do is kick their collective ***.

I'm sorry, was I ranting?


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## Big Pat

Very well said Doc! It really was much different, even through the mid 70's.

Be safe and strong.

EKP RIP 
Big Pat


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## MarkC

*"...a bunch of wannabe intellectual hypothetical Kenpo students, that can name every term, and recite category completions backwards, perform sets and forms in their sleep, and can't fight there way out of their own bathroom after a piss in the middle of the night."*

I love it!


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## distalero

Thanks Doc. You've made an older guy happy (and a little more wise about his history) with what you've written. It was just as you described. 

I've been out of it all for a number of years (career and raising a child), but I'm about to start again at an AK school, and old as I am, my movement will be recognized as something a bit above white belt (although that's where I will gladly start), so I need to have a response to "where did you learn that?", when it's inevitably asked.


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## MonkFist

Doc said:


> Lots of stuff here. I'm on the run, so I'll just address two points.
> 
> Actually Bruce didn't know very much at all. What he had was incredible physical talent. Bruce began studying the arts as an extension of his dancing skills, to learn how to fight. he began Wing Chun training around the age of sixteen. By the age of nineteen he was a college student in Seattle Washington, and his own teacher. No one in the Traditional Chinese Community would deal with him because he was so cocky and somewhat disrespectful. So he bounced around learning what he could from established master like Ed Parker. When Bruce gave his famous demo at the IKC, he was 24 years old. *Parker had been a black belt since 1953 in 4 different arts, studying since since he was 9, and had reputable teachers, and collaborators the entire time, including his original kenpo teacher, Kwai Sun, and Sijo Adriano Emperado*.
> 
> Yes they can, if you have the knowledge that drives the physical attributes. I may be built like a linebacker, but that don't make me a great tackler.
> 
> Close. Maybe they don't know what they know as well.
> 
> "The more you know, the more you know."


 
Bruce liked to exchange ideas with many other martial artists; it isn't as though he sought Parker out to learn kenpo. In fact the way he came to know Ed was via a mutual friend.

And to set the record straight: Parker started martial arts training at age 12 in the art of judo. Bruce was introduced to Yip Man by William Cheung in 1954, making Bruce 14 when he started training in WC. According to Cheung, Bruce progressed so fast the the other WC "masters" became jealous of him (no doubt Bruce's cocky attitude had a lot to do with that) and looked for a way to force him out. 
http://www.cheungswingchun.com/g/1472/the-bruce-lee-training-secret.html

"Sonny Emperado has unequivocally stated that the first time he met Ed Parker was when Ed was in the Coast Guard and trained with him for two weeks in 1952 before Ed Parker went to train with Professor Chow. "
http://kenpokarate.com/1949-1954.html

Furthermore, Parker was a 3rd degree black belt in 1961. Yet, four years later in 1965, he signed Mills Crenshaw's 4th degree rank certificate as having 9th degree rank. 
http://kenpokarate.com/ikka.html

Parker must be the only man in the history of martial arts to magically climb 6 belt levels in only four years. Not even McDojo TKD schools offer that. 

And in any case, at least Bruce didn't BS about his background, claiming that only he and he alone was shown secret techniques by his sifu, while other more prominant and higher ranked (and personal friends) of his sifu know nothing of these secret techniques. Kind of like some people have done with Kenpo since Ed Parker's death. :BSmeter:


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## SL4Drew

MonkFist said:


> Bruce liked to exchange ideas with many other martial artists; it isn't as though he sought Parker out to learn kenpo. In fact the way he came to know Ed was via a mutual friend.
> 
> And to set the record straight: Parker started martial arts training at age 12 in the art of judo. Bruce was introduced to Yip Man by William Cheung in 1954, making Bruce 14 when he started training in WC. According to Cheung, Bruce progressed so fast the the other WC "masters" became jealous of him (no doubt Bruce's cocky attitude had a lot to do with that) and looked for a way to force him out.
> http://www.cheungswingchun.com/g/1472/the-bruce-lee-training-secret.html
> 
> "Sonny Emperado has unequivocally stated that the first time he met Ed Parker was when Ed was in the Coast Guard and trained with him for two weeks in 1952 before Ed Parker went to train with Professor Chow. "
> http://kenpokarate.com/1949-1954.html
> 
> Furthermore, Parker was a 3rd degree black belt in 1961. Yet, four years later in 1965, he signed Mills Crenshaw's 4th degree rank certificate as having 9th degree rank.
> http://kenpokarate.com/ikka.html
> 
> Parker must be the only man in the history of martial arts to magically climb 6 belt levels in only four years. Not even McDojo TKD schools offer that.
> 
> And in any case, at least Bruce didn't BS about his background, claiming that only he and he alone was shown secret techniques by his sifu, while other more prominant and higher ranked (and personal friends) of his sifu know nothing of these secret techniques. Kind of like some people have done with Kenpo since Ed Parker's death. :BSmeter:


 
Really do we have to divert this post into another one about 'facts' from Will Tracy?  I (and I daresay a few others) simply don't find him credible.  So, I find it ironic that you chose to use the 'BS Meter' while using him as your source.


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## shihansmurf

This should be entertaining.

Now I fully understand that I am, in all probability, feeding a troll. But here is the thing, I am forced to wonder at the agenda of a poster with a stunning post count of one, that appears t have joined with the purpose of firing off disrespectful comments at a long term member of the board(not to mention a personal student of Parker) and using as proof, content from a website authored by another person that has, in the past, demonstrated a grudge against Mr Parker. Looks a bit fishy to me. 

So  before we get very far into this, how about you tell us a bit more about who you are, if you please. 

See, I know who Doc is. Hell, about nine years ago he set me straight on the use of Japanese titles in the martial arts world during a discussion on KenpoNet.  He even talked me through a couple of long gun disarms a couple of years after that on the same forum that I used to teach my soldiers before I deployed to Iraq(techniques that saved one of their lives, I might add), and I've indirectly been exposed to some of the SL4 material and liked most of what I've gotted to work with.

Doc is the real deal. Now, I may not see eye to eye with him on everything pertaining to the martial arts(theres no way we could given that we are two different people and all) but I know who he is, his reputation, and chops are well established. 

You not so much. I am curious, though. Have you met Bruce Lee? Dan Innosanto? Mike Pick? Chuck Sullivan?  At the risk of offending any of the Tracy people here, whom I have the deepest respect for, are you affiliated with them? Or are you just parroting a bunch of marketing hype?

In any event, if you are going to engege in this sort of thing please tell us your name. Fill out your profile. Let us know that you opinion actually has weight behind it.

Otherwise you're just trolling.

Mark

P.S.  SL4Drew types faster than me.


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