# Occult Themes in Harry Potter



## Makalakumu (Nov 3, 2007)

This thread is for the discussion of occult themes in the J.K. Rowlings Harry Potter series.  As has been pointed out in other threads, JKR obviously drew traditions and symbols from real groups that claimed to be working magic.  What are the themes that JKR used?  How deep are these themes?


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## Makalakumu (Nov 3, 2007)

I got interested in this after doing a little research for another discussion on Harry Potter.  I found some curious similarities between some Harry Potter characters and symbols to real life occult symbols.



upnorthkyosa said:


> Here's some information that people can use to inform themselves better before they go back and read. I'm looking for particular names, words or verbs that could have been used or turned into anagrams. Check it out.
> 
> Aleister Crowley
> Argenteum Astrum
> ...


 
Other then this, I really don't know much else.  We'll see where this thread goes...


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## ChingChuan (Nov 3, 2007)

I think that occult themes could be found in almost any book, including the Bible. My English teacher is some sort of a paganist and he owns a version of the Bible with all kinds of mythology /paganist things in it. Apparently, some people thought that there were similarities between paganism and the Bible so they did 'research' and created their own Bible, based on themes they found in the Bible. As long as you look long enough, you'll find something that seems to be occult... 

Also - what do you define als occult? According to the Bible, everything that isn't right (=sin) is 'occult' (since it makes you want to hide from God). I don't know what the 'contemporary' meaning of it is?

So... I think that it isn't really surprising that there are also occult themes in Harry Potter - after all, JKR did admit it. However, are they truly important? I don't think so - otherwise, she would have put more emphasis on them... I think she wanted the 'moral' themes to stand out rather than the occult themes - the occult themes are, to my opinion, more used to illustrate the story, to make it more realistic etc. 

By the way, I researched the Deathly Hallows mark, but couldn't find any 'real' occult meaning. Okay, that circle _could_ stand for a sun, but almost all modern marks could be 'turned occult' because of it, triangles, circles and lines are extremely common in our world... 
But I do agree that it has this 'mysterious look'- and that's why I like it, it seems to be something wiccan, but it's 'neutral' (as far as I know).


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## Big Don (Nov 3, 2007)

A fair amount has been written about Rowling, and I've read a good portion of it.  I don't remember reading of her doing vast amounts of research into the occult. IMHO, most of this is a projection of people's attitudes, not based in fact.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 3, 2007)

Big Don said:


> A fair amount has been written about Rowling, and I've read a good portion of it. I don't remember reading of her doing vast amounts of research into the occult. IMHO, most of this is a projection of people's attitudes, *not based in fact*.


 
What do you mean by this?  I don't mean to sidetrack this thread with a semantics discussion, but when someone says that something is not *based in fact*, especially when we are discussing a peice of fantasy liturature, what does that mean?

Can you even talk about "facts" in a discussion like this?  I mean, if it doesn't come directly from the author's mouth or work, its all speculation.  Anyway...

I'm curious as to whether she just shopped around for this or that theme and symbol or made more a concerted effort to tie various themes and symbols to the plot of the story.  

It seems that various Christian Groups have been sensative to the occult themes for a long time.  This article was interesting.  I would like to see if anyone can find any more informed non-biased sources.  Google pretty much turns up mostly Christian based stories.


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## Blotan Hunka (Nov 3, 2007)

You can see anything IN anything if you look hard enough.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 3, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> You can see anything IN anything if you look hard enough.


 
I'm not so sure about that.  However, even if we assume that is true, I think we could agree that some things are easier to "see" then others.  In regards to HP, I don't think you need to try very hard to find various occult themes.  Especially when so many icons and characters are basically lifted from occult sources.  

BTW - I'm using a classical definition of "occult" in that it means hidden.  This is not a Christian based definition.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 3, 2007)

The Philosopher's Stone



> The *philosopher's stone* (Latin: _*lapis philosophorum*_; Greek: _*chrysopoeia*_) is a legendary substance, supposedly capable of turning inexpensive metals into gold; it was also sometimes believed to be a means of making people younger (Elixir of life). For a long time it was the "holy grail" of Western alchemy.


 
This is a good summation of the various religious based arguments that alledge that HP is an occult series.  This article also provides a good counter argument to those allegations.


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## Jai (Nov 4, 2007)

I wasn't all to surprised by the occult relations in the HP series. I guess I was a little taken back with AD being gay, but going back and reading it all again it seems to fit. Personally I think she did a very good job meshing the occult pieces into the HP series. I'm just surprised that this is all coming out before all of the movies are finished. People are going to be looking for new ways to cut down the series in general.


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## Carol (Nov 4, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> The Philosopher's Stone



Wasn't that the UK title of the first Harry Potter book?  The US release was called Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, but I think in the UK they called it Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 4, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Wasn't that the UK title of the first Harry Potter book? The US release was called Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, but I think in the UK they called it Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone.


 
Yes it was.  My wife, who is a huge HP fan, and has several friends in the UK from when she lived over there, had a copy sent to her.  I don't know why they changed it for US audiences...

Anyway, the real Philosopher's Stone is a real Alchemy myth.  Not that that means anything other then she drew from lots of different tradtions...yet its interesting.


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## Andy Moynihan (Nov 4, 2007)

> Wasn't that the UK title of the first Harry Potter book? The US release was called Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, but I think in the UK they called it Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone.








Yes. Can't go upsetting those fundies now( how can you fail?)


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## AceHBK (Nov 16, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> You can see anything IN anything if you look hard enough.


 

I agree with this.

I think she did a great job of naming everything b/c there is a significance in every name  (people, objects, locations) isially from some latin meaning but to me that is really it.

Occult to me is kinda stretching it and as Blotan said...if u keep looking you can find something.

I think we all miss and hate that there will be no more Harry Potter so we all try to hold onto something and prolong it for as long as we can.


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## BrandiJo (Nov 16, 2007)

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1572107/20071017/index.jhtml

Heres an interesting take from J K Rowlings ... she says she was using Christian imagery.

Personally i don't see how you can have a book about with craft and wizardry with out having to use some things that a real occult would use even if it is just slightly similar.


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## Steel Tiger (Nov 18, 2007)

BrandiJo said:


> http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1572107/20071017/index.jhtml
> 
> Heres an interesting take from J K Rowlings ... she says she was using Christian imagery.
> 
> Personally i don't see how you can have a book about with craft and wizardry with out having to use some things that a real occult would use even if it is just slightly similar.


 
There is absolutely no doubt that JK was drawing on the occult traditions of Britain and, to a lesser extent, Europe.  When she says she was using Christian imagery it is very true.  The great wizards who were her influences, Dee, Flamel and the like, were generally very religious men seeking to control evil on behalf of god and the people.

It is interesting to see some of the opinions expressed as to what the occult is.  There is an interesting modern interpretation that the occult should be equated to evil or pagan or ungodly, but it simply means hidden and many of the great writers in history on the occult were priests and monks working with the blessing of the Church.

I think that BrandiJo is right, you can't write a story about magic set in our world without refering to the real occult world at least a little.


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## KempoGuy06 (Nov 19, 2007)

This thread reminded me of a paper I wrote in my ENG 202 dealing with people who want to ban her books because these themes. 

Good paper in my opnion, if anyone wants to read it let me know. PM me

B


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## HelloKitty (Dec 20, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> This thread is for the discussion of occult themes in the J.K. Rowlings Harry Potter series. As has been pointed out in other threads, JKR obviously drew traditions and symbols from real groups that claimed to be working magic. What are the themes that JKR used? How deep are these themes?


 
My husband grew up in London and studied in a traditional catholic school. He told me the nuns were very severe sometimes, and when we saw "HP and the order..." he told me Dolores Umbridge's punishment ways remembered him some of his school... 

Maybe JKR remember thinks like those too when she created the character... ?

Or the Hitlerish obsession of Voldemort with the purebloods. 

"Occult to me is kinda stretching it and as Blotan said...if u keep looking you can find something." -> I definetely agree, but it's funny to share thoughts like these anyways, LOL


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