# Aikidoists, please tell me what you think...



## Flying Crane (Feb 1, 2008)

This youtube link was first posted over on Kenpotalk.  It shows an approach to kenpo that I have no familiarity with, but it strikes me as perhaps a blending of Aikido with kenpo.  Does this stuff look familiar to you guys?  Any comments on it?  Thanks.


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## Archangel M (Feb 1, 2008)

Personally. I dont see any of that working against a committed attack. More "hang your arm out there and let me have my way with you" demo crap. To be blunt. "Large" white guys in flamboyant GI waving their arms around doesnt do it for me.

My opinion and a nickle will get you a nickle though.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 1, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> Personally. I dont see any of that working against a committed attack. More "hang your arm out there and let me have my way with you" demo crap. To be blunt. "Large" white guys in flamboyant GI waving their arms around doesnt do it for me.
> 
> My opinion and a nickle will get you a nickle though.


 
I was kind of thinking the same thing.  I was, however, wondering if the approach they are using might be based on some aikido that they might have learned at some point.


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## arnisador (Feb 1, 2008)

Reminds me of Systema demos.


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## charyuop (Feb 1, 2008)

I am not at a point where I can judge Aikido, but those movements remind me more Sistema than Aikido.
As per effectiveness, I will never get tired to say that most of the time what is delivered is the principle. What is most important is catching the principle so that you know what to do in every situation, not only a certain attack. As I read on another forum what technique are you gonna use Vs an old lady in the middle of the street beating you up with her purse while her dog bites your leg? If you learn a principle you will be able to adapt to any situation.


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## kaizasosei (Feb 1, 2008)

i thought it was pretty genious.  i liked it.  really freestyle way of doing things-seemed skillfull and really well focused to me.

j


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## morph4me (Feb 1, 2008)

I saw alot of the principles of aikido, but then again the same principles apply in alot of other arts as do some of the same techniques. Some of it  reminded me of Yanagi Ryu and it does look like systema, so if it's being taught as kempo who am I to disagree?


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## theletch1 (Feb 2, 2008)

Circular motion and redirection of energy.  Could be pulled from any number of different arts or it could be simply those particular philosophies of motion applied to kenpo.


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## DavidCC (Feb 2, 2008)

Having taken a seminar with Mr Soto, I can tell you that it is indeed a Systema influence you are seeing.  I took another Systema class too, and it is pretty "deep", as in, there is a lot that does not meet the eye.  

We're having a full-day seminar in a couple weeks, I hope I can get a better grasp on it then.  I'm not sure how well it will blend with what I am trying to do with my Kempo, though:  It appears to me that the SYstema style of movement is not based on the stability or structural integrity which is the route I'm trying to go... it is so loose, fluid... I'm not saying this is not effective, it's just different from what I'm doing.  But I look forward to it, at the very least a good counter example is good sometimes.

If anyone reading this wants to come to Omaha for this seminar please PM me.  It is 2/16/08.

-David


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## charyuop (Feb 2, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> It appears to me that the SYstema style of movement is not based on the stability or structural integrity which is the route I'm trying to go... it is so loose, fluid... I'm not saying this is not effective, it's just different from what I'm doing.
> -David


 
I have never taken a class of systema, but it reminds me alot Aikido. If it actually uses the same principle of Aikido don't let it fool you.
Even tho the movements are supposed to be fluid and smooth doesn't mean you don't have a structural stability.
In order to avoid using your muscles, posture and stability is a must. Overextend a part of your body or be crowded into yourself and techniques are impossible to do (unless you are a very experienced practicioner).
One thing is rigidity and one thing is stability, the first one is absent, the second one is present.


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## Yari (Feb 4, 2008)

Flying Crane said:


> This youtube link was first posted over on Kenpotalk. It shows an approach to kenpo that I have no familiarity with, but it strikes me as perhaps a blending of Aikido with kenpo. Does this stuff look familiar to you guys? Any comments on it? Thanks.


 
Hey thanks for sharing... Would have loved to participate in that seminar. Many interesting points, I would have loved to try.

/yari


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## cstanley (Feb 4, 2008)

Yari said:


> Hey thanks for sharing... Would have loved to participate in that seminar. Many interesting points, I would have loved to try.
> 
> /yari


 
 Sloppy technique against compliant attackers who half way punch. The only resemblance to aikido is the half-assed punches. Aikido technique is much sharper and much more focused. By the way, why do all these so-called masters look like they are about 8 months pregnant?


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## theletch1 (Feb 5, 2008)

cstanley said:


> Sloppy technique against compliant attackers who half way punch. *The only resemblance to aikido is the half-assed punches*. Aikido technique is much sharper and much more focused. By the way, why do all these so-called masters look like they are about 8 months pregnant?


Really?  I've had my nose damn near broken, gotten bloodied lips and bruised ribs.  Not what I'd call half assed punches.


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## cstanley (Feb 5, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> Really? I've had my nose damn near broken, gotten bloodied lips and bruised ribs. Not what I'd call half assed punches.


 
I'm only going by what I have seen in a number of aikido dojo. I'm sure your school is an exception...or maybe you need to move sooner.


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## kaizasosei (Feb 5, 2008)

cstanley -





> Sloppy technique against compliant attackers who half way punch. The only resemblance to aikido is the half-assed punches. Aikido technique is much sharper and much more focused. By the way, why do all these so-called masters look like they are about 8 months pregnant?



would you care to show us something you think is better.  or even demonstrate yourself...?  

i consider myself a really hard marker when it comes to aiki.  -  i would not comment so positively if i didnt think there was something good about the movements.  i think when judging aikimovements, external physique is probably not that relevant.  i mean, if you took the time, you could teach an elephant aiki or even a bird.  however, it all depends more on the mind than the body. that's why humans are most suited to exploring aiki but all creatures can learn and do learn aiki.
although it is true that without a body that is healthy and in good shape, it becomes more difficult to endure certain physical hardships.  

i was looking at the aiki-not necessarily the aikido or the kyudo or the kendo or kempo.

j


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## Jade Tigress (Feb 6, 2008)

Let's stick to the discussion of the video. This is not the place to start arguing or attacking art effectiveness, or take personal jabs at those who practice, or have practiced, the art. 

I thought the video was pretty good. It was a seminar, and you could see the teaching principles in the way the techniques were being demonstrated. I don't know enough about systema or aikido to make the distinction of influence though.


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## cstanley (Feb 6, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> cstanley -
> 
> would you care to show us something you think is better. or even demonstrate yourself...?
> 
> ...


 
I think you are over-reacting. Aikido is a fine art that requires a high degree of technical skill. My criticism was primarily of someone's comment that the video was aikido-like. It isn't. The punches in the vid are weak and sloppy, and the techniques demonstrated by the fat guys...er, instructors, are sloppy. It is a long time criticism of aikido, by even some of its own practitioners, that uke does not always punch very hard or with great determination. Hence, the joke: "If you want to start a fight with an aikido guy, just hand him your wrist."


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## morph4me (Feb 6, 2008)

cstanley said:


> I'm only going by what I have seen in a number of aikido dojo. I'm sure your school is an exception...or maybe you need to move sooner.


 
It's probably a combination of both, theletch and I and some others on MT practice the same style of aikido, different from what most people have come to expect.



cstanley said:


> I think you are over-reacting. Aikido is a fine art that requires a high degree of technical skill. My criticism was primarily of someone's comment that the video was aikido-like. It isn't. The punches in the vid are weak and sloppy, and the techniques demonstrated by the fat guys...er, instructors, are sloppy. It is a long time criticism of aikido, by even some of its own practitioners, that uke does not always punch very hard or with great determination. Hence, the joke: "If you want to start a fight with an aikido guy, just hand him your wrist."


 
Aikido, like any other martial art, is different from style to style and even dojo to dojo within the same style.  The video seems to be showing a Kempo instructor teaching different principles, which seem to align themselves with aikido and systema and probably various other arts. 

I agree with Jade Tigress 


> Let's stick to the discussion of the video. This is not the place to start arguing or attacking art effectiveness, or take personal jabs at those who practice, or have practiced, the art.


 
:asian:


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## amir (Feb 6, 2008)

I saw lots of leements which have reminded me of lots of M.A. I have seen, inlcuding Philipine M.A.


It was also clear this was some type of lesson, with the techers trying to explain some ideas. Thus any discussion about attacker intent and the strength of the attacks is moot and only reflects on the poster.


Amir


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## cstanley (Feb 6, 2008)

'Nuff said, then.


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## kaizasosei (Feb 6, 2008)

> Aikido is a fine art that requires a high degree of technical skill.



i would have to agree.  -



> It is a long time criticism of aikido, by even some of its own practitioners, that uke does not always punch very hard or with great determination. Hence, the joke: "If you want to start a fight with an aikido guy, just hand him your wrist."



maybe, but i'm starting to wonder where you are going with this.  never heard that joke before.  ill keep it in mind.

i also agree with others that said that there are many different styles of aikido.  - i believe that the principles of aiki are contained in all martial arts as well as all types of physical and spiritual communication.
even if you really are right about knowing the ultimate truth, it's not helping much if you don't know what's out there in the real world and how to deal with it in positive ways.

j


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## theletch1 (Feb 6, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> never heard that joke before. ill keep it in mind.
> 
> i also agree with others that said that there are many different styles of aikido. - i believe that the principles of aiki are contained in all martial arts as well as all types of physical and spiritual communication.
> even if you really are right about knowing the ultimate truth, it's not helping much if you don't know what's out there in the real world and how to deal with it in positive ways.
> ...


I've heard that joke many times, although it was usually regarding the new aikido-ka who hadn't really dug too deeply into the art saying "Man, if someone would just grab my wrist I could really kick some ***."  It's a good chuckle.

I certainly agree with your second paragraph regarding the principles of aiki being in most arts.  Same could go for taiji being in many or karate being in many.  The thing with the video in the original post is that it's only those principles that are being worked and not aikido itself.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 6, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> Same could go for taiji being in many


 
*HEY!!!* :miffer: Leave taiji out of this 

:uhyeah:

Sorry, I just had to do it. 

I can't really add anything of value to this post so I will go now


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## theletch1 (Feb 6, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> *HEY!!!* :miffer: Leave taiji out of this
> 
> :uhyeah:
> 
> ...


  Anything you add is always of some value, Xue. :lfao: I'm betting that if you looked hard enough you'd see some familiar movements from your taiji training in the video.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 6, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> Anything you add is always of some value, Xue. :lfao: I'm betting that if you looked hard enough you'd see some familiar movements from your taiji training in the video.


 
Thanks... I think :uhohh:

:uhyeah:

There are similarities to CMA in general.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 6, 2008)

Thanks to everyone for jumping in on this and giving your thoughts.  It's been interesting so far, I appreciate the perspective you are all able to add.


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## ejaazi (Feb 6, 2008)

I thought it had some good points, but I don't view it as being like Aikido.


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## cstanley (Feb 6, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> i would have to agree. -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Not "going" anywhere with it. No claims to ultimate truth. Just observations. Very much aware of what is out there. That's quite a list of martial arts you have trotted out in your profile. You must really be something.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 6, 2008)

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## kaizasosei (Feb 6, 2008)

> That's quite a list of martial arts you have trotted out in your profile. You must really be something.



actually, it's just a matter of clicking on the stuff you have experience with.
i'm guessing your list is also longer than you think.  that's how it was with me...i checked out some people just as you are, and i found a few people to have some seriously diverse backgrounds.  actually, i have some blindspots as i have only limited experience with indonesian ma for example as well as some others..


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