# What kind of knife is best for knife fighting?



## Joab

Not that I intend to fight with a knife, its more of an academic question. What kind of knife is best for knife fighting? All opinions appreciated.


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## celtic_crippler

I usually go with sharp and pointy.


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## mwd0818

celtic_crippler said:


> I usually go with sharp and pointy.



You so beat me to this one!!!


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## Joab

celtic_crippler said:


> I usually go with sharp and pointy.


 
Can you be a little more specific than that? What about the Bowie knife, of Fairbairn/Applegate? What about the Ka-bar? Or perhaps something else?


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## Bill Mattocks

Joab said:


> Not that I intend to fight with a knife, its more of an academic question. What kind of knife is best for knife fighting? All opinions appreciated.



The one you have with you.

Seriously.  If you can't legally carry it, it's not much good unless you intend to break the law.

Other than that, I believe it is down to personal choice and your own comfort zone.   I prefer a very small knife with a parrot-beak blade.  Something I can grasp firmly, which disappears in my hand with the exception of 2 inches of hooked blade sticking out, which I would attempt to use to open the belly.  

Bad guys do not tend to continue fighting when they have to hold their intestines in with both hands, and a slash is much more effective in terms of not needing to be accurate than a stab.  People take stab wounds all the time and aren't even aware they've been stuck until later, even if the wound is life-threatening.  Spill their guts out and it will get their attention.


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## celtic_crippler

Joab said:


> Can you be a little more specific than that? What about the Bowie knife, of Fairbairn/Applegate? What about the Ka-bar? Or perhaps something else?


 
Too general...

Sharp, pointy, easy to conceal.... 

Personal preference...I like SpiderCo http://www.spyderco.com/


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## lklawson

OK, I resisted my initial urge to be asinine and replay "a sword" or "a gun" or something else equally wanker-ish.

The truth is "best knife for knife fighting" covers a massive number of unstated and implied prerequisites.

The question has been answered *differently* numerous times by vastly varying cultures.  

The reason is simple yet complex.  The heart of the question is really, "what is knife fighting?"  There are many constituents to what knife fighting is but some basics include:


What is the physical build and general physical capabilities of the opponent you will likely face?
What kind of armour or protective clothing will your likely opponent be wearing?
Are "knife fights" usually to the death or are they more often duels of honor where wounding or "first blood" is sufficient?
If "first blood" type duels are common, what kind of wound and location on the body is sufficient (i.e., a scar to the face, a cut to the arm, or any cut anywhere)?
Is a knife fight likely to be initiated from surprise or ambush?
Are there specific social (or legal) conventions on how a knife may be carried, displayed, or accessed (such as prohibitions against concealing the knife or, alternately, prohibitions against carrying *visible* knifes).
Is your most likely available knife going to be influenced or dictated by cultural conventions such as a knife which is "traditional to that culture (i.e., navaja, skean dhu, kirpan, or kukri)?
Are there specific legal restrictions on the type of knife you may use (i.e., single edged only, restrictions on length, no fixed blades, or no locking mechanism on folders)?
Once you answer these and many other, similar, questions you can begin to narrow down the options of which knife is ideal for you and your requirements.

Personally, me, I happen to like Bowie Knives.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Bill Mattocks said:


> The one you have with you.
> 
> Seriously.  If you can't legally carry it, it's not much good unless you intend to break the law.


He didn't say anything about carrying a knife for self defense.  He was pretty vague, actually.  He might be referring to a knife-v-knife duel in a classical setting, or maybe he's planning on visiting the Philippines, or who-knows-what.

While I agree with your recommendation re carrying a knife for SD, the OP didn't really give enough information to answer the question.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

celtic_crippler said:


> Too general...
> 
> Sharp, pointy, easy to conceal....


Maybe concealment isn't important.  Ceteris Paribus, I'd take a D-Guard Bowie or a cut down 1860 over a spiderco any day.  But neither are particularly concealable so if "easy to conceal" is important, then neither of those will do.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Joab

Bill Mattocks said:


> The one you have with you.
> 
> Seriously. If you can't legally carry it, it's not much good unless you intend to break the law.
> 
> Unlike the majority of my questions and posts, this question has absolutely nothing to do with self defense or what is legal. It is more of an academic question, and really is what would be the best fighting knife? Ok, I will put it another way. Suppose your an infantryman, it could be a Marine, or an Army Ranger or Special Forces or Navy SEAL or regular, every day doughman or grunt who is about to be sent to Afghanistan. you know your going to need a good knife, they come in handy when your in combat. Which one would you choose? And no, I'm not going to Afghanistan, and no, I'm not about to purchase a knife, it has nothing to do with me at all.


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## K831

Well, you first post, and your last post, require a different answer. For "fighting" against another human being I would want one type of knife, for going to Iraq as a Marine, I would choose another. Right down to the steel. For example, in a pure fighting knife, I would choose a knife in something like 154CM/ATS-34 but for going to Iraq/Afghanistan I might choose D2 or even sv30.

Nevertheless I will try and give you my answer in the format I think you are looking for;

Pure fighting knife(many of these fit the Afgan knife too) -

Handle -

Design must be ergonomic and provide a secure grip in short and long held (the ergonomics matter here depending on how you fight, and might be different if you fight short held edge in, for example)

Material must provide good grip and feel, even when hands are sweaty/bloody (see Emerson's use of G10)

Forward thumb ramp so my hand doesn't slip forward if I stab and abruptly stop (hit bone etc)

Pommel that facilitates hammer fist strikes

Blade -

I prefer a recurve blade as I believe they slice better and the design facilitates better trapping with the blade. I prefer a spear point for thrusting (followed by a drop point). I prefer non serrated blades in a pure fighter. 

Not completely decided, but I tend to lean towards a hollow grind for this application. 

A double edged blade would be preferable. 

Also important to consider is the sheath /draw-stroke / carry location.


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## jarrod

it also depends on preferred tactics.  i like to use the point for the most part, so a stable hand guard that will keep my hand from sliding up the blade when i stab is important.  other people might use the edge more & prefer a slightly curved blade.  if you use the underhand grip a lot, you might use a lot of edge but if it's too curved it could dig into your forearm.  a double edged blade would be problematic for the underhand grip for the similar reasons.  but since i seldom actually carry a knife i think it's important for your tactics to be able to be easily translated to improvised weapons.  for instance if you completely rely on the edge you might have a difficult time applying your skills with a broken beer bottle or an ice pick.  

jf


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## prokarateshop

Bill Mattocks said:


> The one you have with you.
> 
> Seriously.  If you can't legally carry it, it's not much good unless you intend to break the law.
> 
> Other than that, I believe it is down to personal choice and your own comfort zone.   I prefer a very small knife with a parrot-beak blade.  Something I can grasp firmly, which disappears in my hand with the exception of 2 inches of hooked blade sticking out, which I would attempt to use to open the belly.
> 
> Bad guys do not tend to continue fighting when they have to hold their intestines in with both hands, and a slash is much more effective in terms of not needing to be accurate than a stab.  People take stab wounds all the time and aren't even aware they've been stuck until later, even if the wound is life-threatening.  Spill their guts out and it will get their attention.



Though really really graphic, i do agree.. but how do you contend with clothing.. would a heavy shirt prove slashing ineffective..


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## Joab

K831 said:


> Well, you first post, and your last post, require a different answer. For "fighting" against another human being I would want one type of knife, for going to Iraq as a Marine, I would choose another. Right down to the steel. For example, in a pure fighting knife, I would choose a knife in something like 154CM/ATS-34 but for going to Iraq/Afghanistan I might choose D2 or even sv30.
> 
> The reason I wrote a question regarding what a Marine or soldier should carry as a combat knife in Afghanistan is some were getting bogged down and restrictive regarding what knife would be legal to carry. The question is not what fighting knife one should carry legally in the
> USA, but rather what is the best fighting knife, regardless of whether or not it is legal. I can't imagine any fighting knife being illegal to carry in combat, so I chose that scenario.


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## Chris Parker

Really, Joab, this is such an open-ended question that it cannot truly be answered here. Different situations will have different requirements. And remember, it's not the knife, man, it's the knifeman.

But for recommendations on how to use a knife, look to the work of Michael Janich. A sample video of his is 



, but I must warn that it is a bit graphic at times. You will see, however, that the knife itself matters little (see the results of a very small box-cutter type blade). Other videos of his have denim or other clothing wrapped around the "pork man" target, to show how clothing effects cutting ability.

But really, there is no best fighting knife, the same way there is no best kick, no best gun, no best anything. The best is what works for the situation you are in, and what you can use effectively. That could include legal requirements, or you may be looking at what types of attacks you are going against (a soldier in Afghanistan will have a different type of attack and weapon to defend against than someone in the US getting caught up in a robbery).


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## Brian R. VanCise

*There really is no "best" knife*.  Sorry it just does not work that way.  While one might be great in a certain situation and then not so good in another.  I mean if I was in the jungle then a ginunting might be absolutely great.  It clears bush, can chop wood (though that seems sacrilegious), cuts people effectively, etc.  If I was in a mall in the United States then I would need some thing small like a benchmade griptillian which is compact, legal, easily accesible and cuts well. (heck I can open boxes with it all day)  What really is more important than the knife is the user's ability with it.  *That is what is really important.*


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## sgtmac_46

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *There really is no "best" knife*.  Sorry it just does not work that way.  While one might be great in a certain situation and then not so good in another.  I mean if I was in the jungle then a ginunting might be absolutely great.  It clears bush, can chop wood (though that seems sacrilegious), cuts people effectively, etc.  If I was in a mall in the United States then I would need some thing small like a benchmade griptillian which is compact, legal, easily accesible and cuts well. (heck I can open boxes with it all day)  What really is more important than the knife is the user's ability with it.  *That is what is really important.*




It always comes down to software over hardware, tactics over tools.


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## jks9199

Joab said:


> K831 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you first post, and your last post, require a different answer. For "fighting" against another human being I would want one type of knife, for going to Iraq as a Marine, I would choose another. Right down to the steel. For example, in a pure fighting knife, I would choose a knife in something like 154CM/ATS-34 but for going to Iraq/Afghanistan I might choose D2 or even sv30.
> 
> The reason I wrote a question regarding what a Marine or soldier should carry as a combat knife in Afghanistan is some were getting bogged down and restrictive regarding what knife would be legal to carry. The question is not what fighting knife one should carry legally in the
> USA, but rather what is the best fighting knife, regardless of whether or not it is legal. I can't imagine any fighting knife being illegal to carry in combat, so I chose that scenario.
Click to expand...

Whether you can carry it or not is an important practical consideration.  It's even a concern for combat; if the regs don't permit a particular knife, then you can't carry it -- even if it's a fantastic knife for fighting that barely needs a human to hold it.

There's no perfect knife for fighting.  What fits me and the way I move is not going to be the same as what will be good for you.  My grip or the way I use the knife may want a balance _here_ but you want one more blade forward... or deeper into the handle.  How and where I'm going to carry it (do I want it open or concealed, in a pocket or strapped to my belt...) will effect the choice, as will the environment.  If I'm spending a lot of time in a wet environment, I have different needs than if I'm in a desert...  And so on.


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## K831

I find it a little funny that no one can answer Joab's question because of a desire to take it too seriously.

Yes, we all know there is no "perfect" knife.

Yes, we all know there is no "one knife" for all and very fighting situation

Yes, we all know in the real world you should be able to carry it legally.

Yes, we all know the "best" knife is the one you have on you...  

Ad nauseum... 

However, the OP isn't asking for suggestions loaded with all those "practical" pieces of advise.... he simply wants to have a "what if" discussion. He isn't talking about a knife he will actually carry in a US city.... just what characteristics would we want in our version of a great fighting knife... NO OTHER factors need to be considered. 

Maybe I'm wrong.... Joab correct me if I misunderstood you. But can't we all have a fun discussion about our preferred aspects of a fighting knife, and forget about everything else... at least in this one thread?


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## KenpoTex

Fine, I'll play...

Big, scary, high "CDI" factor: Bowie, something like a Bagwell Hell's Belle.

Small, concealable, and useful in the types of situations where a knife might actually come into play: Push-dagger or something like the Kasper Companion

For the record, when my little brother (Army 11B) deployed to Iraq recently, I gave him a RAT Cutlery RC-5.  I figured he'd get far more use out of a knife like that (5" blade, 1/4" stock, glass-breaker pommel) than a big, scary "fightin' knife."  He will undoubtedly spend much more time cutting open pallets or prying open windows/doors than squared off against someone else with a knife...they gave him an M4 for dealing with people who need killing.


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## Joab

K831 said:


> I find it a little funny that no one can answer Joab's question because of a desire to take it too seriously.
> 
> .... he simply wants to have a "what if" discussion. He isn't talking about a knife he will actually carry in a US city.... just what characteristics would we want in our version of a great fighting knife... NO OTHER factors need to be considered.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong.... Joab correct me if I misunderstood you. But can't we all have a fun discussion about our preferred aspects of a fighting knife, and forget about everything else... at least in this one thread?


 
Precisely. But I don't think I'm going to get it.


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## Joab

KenpoTex said:


> Fine, I'll play...
> 
> Big, scary, high "CDI" factor: Bowie, something like a Bagwell Hell's Belle.
> 
> Small, concealable, and useful in the types of situations where a knife might actually come into play: Push-dagger or something like the Kasper Companion
> 
> For the record, when my little brother (Army 11B) deployed to Iraq recently, I gave him a RAT Cutlery RC-5. I figured he'd get far more use out of a knife like that (5" blade, 1/4" stock, glass-breaker pommel) than a big, scary "fightin' knife." He will undoubtedly spend much more time cutting open pallets or prying open windows/doors than squared off against someone else with a knife...they gave him an M4 for dealing with people who need killing.


 I got one who answered the question, thanks.


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## Chris Parker

Cool, Joab. I think the confusion has come from the wording of the original post and thread title "What knife is best..." with no qualification. If you are just asking "What is your favourite type of fighting knife?", that is a different question, and that we can certainly answer!

For myself, I try not to have a favourite so to speak, but if I was to design something for myself, I would have a few aspects I would like to see included:
- Single edged (I like to have my thumb behind the blade to brace the cut)
- Blade length of about 2 inches (easily maneouvered, easily hidden, very fast)
- Folder (for concealment)

There are a few other aspects, such as a particular shape to the blade and handle to fascilitate trapping and striking with the base of the handle. But this is a good base line. Is that more what you were after?


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## frank raud

Chris Parker said:


> Cool, Joab. I think the confusion has come from the wording of the original post and thread title "What knife is best..." with no qualification. If you are just asking "What is your favourite type of fighting knife?", that is a different question, and that we can certainly answer!
> 
> For myself, I try not to have a favourite so to speak, but if I was to design something for myself, I would have a few aspects I would like to see included:
> - Single edged (I like to have my thumb behind the blade to brace the cut)
> - Blade length of about 2 inches (easily maneouvered, easily hidden, very fast)
> - Folder (for concealment)
> 
> There are a few other aspects, such as a particular shape to the blade and handle to fascilitate trapping and striking with the base of the handle. But this is a good base line. Is that more what you were after?


 
I'm curious, with such a short blade length, why a folder? The overall length wouldn't be much longer for a fixed blade(rough math= 2 extra inches).


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## lklawson

KenpoTex said:


> Big, scary, high "CDI" factor: Bowie, something like a Bagwell Hell's Belle.


The Hell's Belle has a lot going for it:  Lots of reach, decent cutting, very good on the point, a functional guard which protects the hand decently as well as having some "trapping" capability, meaty enough to stop and parry...

In a lot of ways, it's like a main gauche with a bowie profile instead of a double edged profile.










Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Blindside

In the fantasy "I'm not allowed to carry a sword, but a freakin' huge knife is allowable" world, put me in for a bowie as well.  In this case the Keating Crossada, because it thrusts like a dream and the ability to catch blades in the guards is a nice tool. 

http://www.szaboinc.com/edged_detail.asp?ID=17


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## lklawson

Blindside said:


> In the fantasy "I'm not allowed to carry a sword, but a freakin' huge knife is allowable" world, put me in for a bowie as well.  In this case the Keating Crossada,


I also have a soft spot for cut down 1860 sabers.

Allegedly Rezin Bowie made a fighting knife this way from a broken saber he found discarded.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Blindside

lklawson said:


> I also have a soft spot for cut down 1860 sabers.
> 
> Allegedly Rezin Bowie made a fighting knife this way from a broken saber he found discarded.


 
I hadn't heard that (which isn't really surprising), when you are talking 1860 sabers are you talking heavy, light, or naval cutlass?


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## Brian R. VanCise

It is very hard to argue against the Hell's Belle as that is an excellent knife!


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## Xue Sheng

By translation a Da Dao is a knife 

Da (big) Dao (knife) as is the Kwan Dao 

Sorry I couldn't resist, I'll go now


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## blindsage

DEER HORN KNIVES!!!


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## Chris Parker

frank raud said:


> I'm curious, with such a short blade length, why a folder? The overall length wouldn't be much longer for a fixed blade(rough math= 2 extra inches).


 
Hi Frank,

Really, it comes down to what I am most comfortable with. There aren't any concealed carry situations or laws here in Australia, so folders garner less attention, especially one that is not obviously a "fighter". I have had more experience training with folders, and that leads me to prefer them. That's all, really.


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## lklawson

Blindside said:


> I hadn't heard that (which isn't really surprising),


Who knows if it's true or not.  But it's a good story and, historically speaking, has a fair amount of documentation and extant examples.



> when you are talking 1860 sabers are you talking heavy, light, or naval cutlass?


"Old Wristbreaker" heavy cav.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Brian R. VanCise said:


> It is very hard to argue against the Hell's Belle as that is an excellent knife!


I own the "Fortress" model.  I like it well enough but really prefer a Bowie with a broader blade.

As crazy as it sounds, I really like the Depeeka "Drop Bowie" (which doesn't look very much like the ad. pics).  The finish is rough but the steel is good and it's a big, meaty blade with a functional guard.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Xue Sheng said:


> By translation a Da Dao is a knife
> 
> Da (big) Dao (knife) as is the Kwan Dao
> 
> Sorry I couldn't resist, I'll go now


Same for the Messer and Grosse Messer.  "Messer" means (generically) "knife" and "Grosse Messer" means "big knife."  That's the problem with attempting to apply literal translations.  I'm glad I'm not a linguist.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## frank raud

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Frank,
> 
> Really, it comes down to what I am most comfortable with. There aren't any concealed carry situations or laws here in Australia, so folders garner less attention, especially one that is not obviously a "fighter". I have had more experience training with folders, and that leads me to prefer them. That's all, really.


 Fair enough. I'm just curious with the rest of your description, I envision a 5 or 6 inch handle with a 2 inch blade. Is there a commercially available blade that roughly fits your requirements?


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## Xue Sheng

lklawson said:


> Same for the Messer and Grosse Messer. "Messer" means (generically) "knife" and "Grosse Messer" means "big knife." That's the problem with attempting to apply literal translations. I'm glad I'm not a linguist.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 
Actually most Chinese I know translate Da Dao as Big knife and Dao as knife (Jian appears to translate as sword) but then they also translate Whisky, Scotch, Vodka and Wine as Wine too


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## Joab

blindsage said:


> DEER HORN KNIVES!!!


 Looks kind lof like the Klingon bladed weapon that Worf liked the best, can't remember the name of it.


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## Xue Sheng

Joab said:


> Looks kind lof like the Klingon bladed weapon that Worf liked the best, can't remember the name of it.


 
Batleth


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## d1jinx

Joab said:


> Not that I intend to fight with a knife, its more of an academic question. What kind of knife is best for knife fighting? All opinions appreciated.


 
The kind attached to the end of a gun.


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## KenpoTex

frank raud said:


> Fair enough. I'm just curious with the rest of your description, I envision a 5 or 6 inch handle with a 2 inch blade. Is there a commercially available blade that roughly fits your requirements?



The Emerson CQC-14 is close...
http://www.emersonknives.com/ekCQC14.php


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## Chris Parker

Yep. I like that one. The other style of knife I like is something that was designed as a specialty item, made by a company called Jensen Elite Blades (no longer in business). They had an item called the JUST (Jensen Utility Survival Tool), a copy of which is found at the bottom of this page (http://www.jbknives.biz/GALLERY03.html).

These blades are designed to only really be used in a reverse grip, and are great for trapping that way. My Chief Instructor was involved in designing taining programs (with the military in mind) for this tool, so we went through it in a bit of depth. Lots of fun, unfortunately no longer available unless you get someone to custom make one for you.


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## sgtmac_46

Xue Sheng said:


> Batleth



Nerd......:spock:


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## Draven

Joab said:


> Not that I intend to fight with a knife, its more of an academic question. What kind of knife is best for knife fighting? All opinions appreciated.


 
Sorry to be a dick here but could you define knife fighting?

I ask because knife combat breaks down into two forms; knife assaults, read Sentry removal tactics for those familiar with old school (fairbourne/applegate) combatives frame opf thought and knife dueling (hollywood style knife fights). Thats a huge factor, my personal general useage combat knife is gonna similar to a K-bar in design & my general tactic for either case will be thrust in and slash out.


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## lklawson

Draven said:


> Sorry to be a dick here but could you define knife fighting?
> 
> I ask because knife combat breaks down into two forms; knife assaults, read Sentry removal tactics for those familiar with old school (fairbourne/applegate) combatives frame opf thought and knife dueling (hollywood style knife fights). Thats a huge factor, my personal general useage combat knife is gonna similar to a K-bar in design & my general tactic for either case will be thrust in and slash out.


Not every knife-on-knife fight is going to be a "duel," particularly in modern context, but I get where you're coming from.

I should also point out (again) that various cultures at various times have different takes on what a knife "duel" is.  An 18th Century Spanish baratero had a very different idea of what a knife duel was than a 17th Century Italian noble choosing "poniards" to say nothing of what a 1950's Philippino  escrimador might think.  Any of them could turn fatal (or even be assumed so at first blush), but the rules of engagement and social context was far different for each.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tez3

Our Gurkhas in 'Ghan carry Kukris as they have always done. The right weapon in the right hands..always!


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## Draven

lklawson said:


> Not every knife-on-knife fight is going to be a "duel," particularly in modern context, but I get where you're coming from.
> 
> I should also point out (again) that various cultures at various times have different takes on what a knife "duel" is. An 18th Century Spanish baratero had a very different idea of what a knife duel was than a 17th Century Italian noble choosing "poniards" to say nothing of what a 1950's Philippino escrimador might think. Any of them could turn fatal (or even be assumed so at first blush), but the rules of engagement and social context was far different for each.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 
Well for simplisity's sake I consider a Duel any squaring off of opponents with a brandished weapon before assault commences. I consider ambushing someone with a knife (think prision shanking) good tactics. I can see a soldier pulling a knife and facing off against an enemy soldier still dueling, wars are just the duellings of nations...


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## lklawson

Draven said:


> Well for simplisity's sake I consider a Duel any squaring off of opponents with a brandished weapon before assault commences. I consider ambushing someone with a knife (think prision shanking) good tactics. I can see a soldier pulling a knife and facing off against an enemy soldier still dueling, wars are just the duellings of nations...


I think your definition of "duel" is a bit broad but, like I said, I understand where you're coming from and what you're geting at.

It's all good, man.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## wushuguy

i would think that the best knife would be one that affords one reach and enough weight for various kinds of uses such as parry or slash or stab through thick material. it should also be made out of the best possible steel, best meaning it will be be tough enough not to take a set easily, hard enough that it can possibly cut through or damage the opponent's knife, crowbar, etc. without getting too damaged in the process. and it should feel good and natural in the hands of the wielder.  ... so in my opinion the best knife must be customized to the wielder. Also if adamantium was ever available as knife material, I'd go for a knife made with that.


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## TKDHomeSchooler

I carry a SOG II Flash Tanto on my weak side front pocket and a Gerber Paraframe in my strong side back pocket.  The Gerber is what I use daily for boxes and such, but can use it if neccessary, but if I have to go blade for blade I will want my SOG.  From time to time I carry a Kabar TDK weak side in my belt.

All of that is if I can't make it to my S&W at 4 O'Clock.


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## Skpotamus

I would think the best knife for knife fighting would be a bayonet, attached to a functional and loaded rifle


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## lklawson

wushuguy said:


> i would think that the best knife would be one that affords one reach and enough weight


So a sword then?  ;-)



> for various kinds of uses such as parry or slash or stab through thick material.


What if your opponent isn't likely to be wearing thick material?  Maybe you live in Honduras or Haiti where the standard garb is T-Shirts and shorts.




> it should also be made out of the best possible steel, best meaning it will be be tough enough not to take a set easily, hard enough that it can possibly cut through or damage the opponent's knife, crowbar, etc. without getting too damaged in the process.


I'm sorry, this isn't possible.




> and it should feel good and natural in the hands of the wielder.  ...


Highly subjective.  I have a knife made with a ram's horn grip.  Feels AWFUL in either hand in standard or reverse grip but darn near perfect in a right handed "Mediterranean grip."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## David43515

Blade shape is gonna follow your preffered meathod of fighting. But I think a double edged blade for helf the length, with a wide blade for wounds with more surface area to bleed out, and a handle long enough to be used for striking. If I was going to rely solely on forward grip I`d like a 9-10 inch blade for leverage withthe slash. For either forward or reverse grip I doubt I`d want more than 6.5-7 inches. Either way I want it haip popping sharp.


----------



## BLACK LION

In advance, forgive me for rambling or mix-matching thoughts.  



I wont continue to drill the point that there is no such thing as a best knife for "knife fighting" or why.  

Q: What is the focus when using a sharp object?
A: To perforate flesh and ventilate the vascular system in any wahy possible....Of course targeting vital organs(lungs-heart) for laceration/ deflation is a good thought  but they are protected by the rib cage and are harder to access... Sensory and reproductive organs are better targets and the anus is one of the worst to be stabbed in.  Visceration is a good idea as well.  Ligaments and large muscle groups are good but last on my list and always practiced as a step to get to eventuality.  
Ligaments, connective tissue and muscle can buy time but do not offer the eventuality that a pointy object through the carotid artery.   

If you know and understand why you are using that device and how to get the job done that way... the what, seems to diminish as does the sense of the fear from ignorance of the unknown.   A bic pen all of a sudden becomes a tool that can put even large game down.  
All you are looking to do is amplify your existing body weapon by affixing a sharp attachment to crash through thier structure with.... the tool itself will not do the job and just cuz you pick it up and want to stab or slice something doesnt either.  IMHO, dispatching animals with sharp instrument is very dirty work if not the dirtiest job within bad breath distance...  you have to work hard.  The whole slash vs stab debate is useless as well when you look at the large compilation of stabbing data.  The most success one will ever have when using a perforation device is to target vital areas...ALWAYS.   I wouldnt want a 300# man on top of exsanguinating from superficial wounds inflicted by me while he continues to pommel me to bits with what life he has left.  

My suggestion to anyone that wishes to go this route and believe me, I recommend it to anyone I feel capable... Know what the hell you are doing first becuase there is no magic pill and plenty of people get ran through with their own shanks...There is no best choice since it is not a contest and a showdown... the best choice is the one they dont know you have. 
There is no best choice becuase 1 is never enough... If you really want to go that route 1 becomes 3 or 4.   Seems strange, good... but I guarantee I am set up to ambush anyone from any position of compromise.  
1 knife clipped to the pen pocket of my cargo pants does no good if tackled from behind by 2 parolees from san quentin.  

You are the best weapon, what you affix to yourself means nothing if you have not honed yourself first...once you do that, it does not matter what you affix or attach to yourself, you are dangerous regardless.    
It a mindset and a focus that makes the action decisive and that could mean finding a wood screw or construction nail or a popsickle stick an alley deck after being bumrushed by a vagrant.  
If you know WHAT... those all become useful.


----------



## lklawson

BLACK LION said:


> Q: What is the focus when using a sharp object?
> A: To perforate flesh and ventilate the vascular system in any wahy possible....Of course targeting vital organs(lungs-heart) for laceration/ deflation is a good thought  but they are protected by the rib cage and are harder to access... Sensory and reproductive organs are better targets and the anus is one of the worst to be stabbed in.  Visceration is a good idea as well.  Ligaments and large muscle groups are good but last on my list and always practiced as a step to get to eventuality.
> Ligaments, connective tissue and muscle can buy time but do not offer the eventuality that a pointy object through the carotid artery.


You are making some assumptions about several things here.  One thing you are assuming is that incapacitation and/or instant severely diminished capacity at movement and attack is less desirable than eventual death due to loss of consciousness through blood loss or organ failure.  This may not be the case.  It takes TIME to bleed out.  A severed hamstring or cut inner wrist has immediate effect.  Unconsciousness due to blood loss can take up to several minutes.

Do you care if he's dead so long as he's incapable of attacking any further?



> I wouldnt want a 300# man on top of exsanguinating from superficial wounds inflicted by me while he continues to pommel me to bits with what life he has left.


Dude, if you're already down to defending yourself with a knife you're way past worrying about blood-born pathogens.  That's a distant, statistically remote, and unconfirmed potential threat, particularly when you're in the middle of dealing with the immediate threat that the fella is trying to kill you *RIGHT NOW*.  

For that matter, you just plain need to accept that you're going to be exposed to your opponent's blood/bodily-fluids if you use a knife.  There's just no way around it.  If you plan to use a knife, accept ahead of time the danger of potential blood-born pathogen exposure.



> My suggestion to anyone that wishes to go this route and believe me, I recommend it to anyone I feel capable... Know what the hell you are doing first becuase there is no magic pill and plenty of people get ran through with their own shanks...


This seems to be a matter of faith for many.  However, I've never seen any hard data that actually supports this assertion.  I'd love to know what your source is.



> There is no best choice since it is not a contest and a showdown...


The problem is, that's not always an accurate statement.  Sure, in many cases, it's not.  However, there are also many historic (and even contemporary) contexts where is IS a contest; a Duel.

I mentioned this early on and it's still an accurate statement.  There's all kinds of knife-fighting in a vast array of differing, sometimes mutually exclusive, contexts.  Knives deployed in modern Johannesburg is simply not the same thing as knives deployed in 18th Century Spain which is a far, far cry from knives deployed in 16th Century Germany.  The goals in all three are different as are the clothing, knives, and social strictures of the times.

Context is everything.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## BLACK LION

"Dude", read my post again.


----------



## BLACK LION

lklawson said:


> You are making some assumptions about several things here. One thing you are assuming is that incapacitation and/or instant severely diminished capacity at movement and attack is less desirable than eventual death due to loss of consciousness through blood loss or organ failure. This may not be the case. It takes TIME to bleed out. A severed hamstring or cut inner wrist has immediate effect. Unconsciousness due to blood loss can take up to several minutes. * I dont see where I assumed any of this. What makes you think this.  Lets activate rant mode again shall we.
> A severed hamstring is great as is a severed achilles heel but they can still kill you without any of those things...If I stab a man in the eye he lost 50% of his sense of sight in one motion not only that but he will most often lose that eye forever and his body will react that way without his brain having any say in it...the only way he wouldnt jerk around like a broke neck chiken is if he was duct taped and even still he would writhe...Here I have time and opportunity because he is more busy nursing that eyeball than he would be if I slashed his wrists or leg etc... If I then proceed to stab him in his esophagus he will drown in scuz pretty quick and depending on how I do it I may be rewarded with extra bonuses like an electrical knock out, etc etc... I AM SAYING, that by accessing a standard target or area of weakness that yeilds predictable spinal results when unarmed then you simply amplify that by crashing those same areas with a blade behind your body.  I utilize the same target base no matter if I have a tool or not...  If I had a gun, I would not shoot someone in the wrist or the leg unless I missed thier torso.
> A hamstring would not necessarily be the kind of target I would be worried about access in a time is life situation and the wrist isnt either... WTF would I want to target a wrist and expend more time in a hostile zone than I would if I got in there like a pro football player and start taking his life away ASAP....   Besides, the ligaments in the back of the knee and front of the elbow would be a more viable slash target for me since they are closer to the surface on big meaty people and a man without a hand can still elbow you to pulp.  Still those targets only practically offer themselves when you have been compromised in a sitting kneeling or lying position.
> 
> Do you care if he's dead so long as he's incapable of attacking any further?
> Either or is fine with me, but if I decide to put my metal to his flesh... HE DIES... and I will make sure of that.  I would never even think to deploy a blade on an animal if my intent wasnt to cease its life forrce.
> Same as a gun...
> I can put them in the ER just fine with my body so if its a humanitarian mission why even deploy a labor saving tool.
> 
> 
> Dude, if you're already down to defending yourself with a knife you're way past worrying about blood-born pathogens. That's a distant, statistically remote, and unconfirmed potential threat, particularly when you're in the middle of dealing with the immediate threat that the fella is trying to kill you RIGHT NOW.
> Never said anything anything about spreading diseases. I said I would be less inclined to slash becuase he can still kill me while exsanguinating..
> 
> For that matter, you just plain need to accept that you're going to be exposed to your opponent's blood/bodily-fluids if you use a knife. There's just no way around it. If you plan to use a knife, accept ahead of time the danger of potential blood-born pathogen exposure.
> Again, never said squat about bodily fluid transactions in the context you are presenting, that must have been someone elses argument
> 
> This seems to be a matter of faith for many. However, I've never seen any hard data that actually supports this assertion. I'd love to know what your source is.  Again, never said anything about bodily fluid transactions with BG's
> 
> The problem is, that's not always an accurate statement. Sure, in many cases, it's not. However, there are also many historic (and even contemporary) contexts where is IS a contest; a Duel.
> Show me prison footage where they duel or make a contest out of it becuase all the accounts that I have seen and the data I have read all points to an ambush as the desireable way to go...it has been my experience personally including the loss of a good friend that the knife is felt and not seen.  It is by nature an ambush device...we are not talking about hatchets, long *** Daniel Boone pig sticker replicas, swords, machetes etc...we are talking knives, shanks, shivs, spikes etc.
> 
> I mentioned this early on and it's still an accurate statement. There's all kinds of knife-fighting in a vast array of differing, sometimes mutually exclusive, contexts. Knives deployed in modern Johannesburg is simply not the same thing as knives deployed in 18th Century Spain which is a far, far cry from knives deployed in 16th Century Germany. The goals in all three are different as are the clothing, knives, and social strictures of the times.  Well , "dude" I am talking 21st century mean streets of souther california where people get "cuban neck ties" and left in thier car to bleed out...2 blocks from my house. I will stick to what gets me the win against those types.
> 
> Context is everything. Agreed, but it helps to read and understand before jumping to conclusions about what was displayed on your monitor
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk*


*

To make a long story short, whith a blade I do the same sheet I would without... to met the only different is eventuality may come quicker.*


----------



## BLACK LION

Correction:

Originally Posted by *lklawson* 

 
_You are making some assumptions about several things here. One thing you are assuming is that incapacitation and/or instant severely diminished capacity at movement and attack is less desirable than eventual death due to loss of consciousness through blood loss or organ failure. This may not be the case. It takes TIME to bleed out. A severed hamstring or cut inner wrist has immediate effect. Unconsciousness due to blood loss can take up to several minutes. * I dont see where I assumed any of this. What makes you think this. Lets activate rant mode again shall we. 
A severed hamstring is great as is a severed achilles heel but they can still kill you without any of those things...If I stab a man in the eye he lost 50% of his sense of sight in one motion not only that but he will most often lose that eye forever and his body will react that way without his brain having any say in it...the only way he wouldnt jerk around like a broke neck chiken is if he was duct taped and even still he would writhe...Here I have time and opportunity because he is more busy nursing that eyeball than he would be if I slashed his wrists or leg etc... If I then proceed to stab him in his esophagus he will drown in scuz pretty quick and depending on how I do it I may be rewarded with extra bonuses like an electrical knock out, etc etc... I AM SAYING, that by accessing a standard target or area of weakness that yeilds predictable spinal results when unarmed then you simply amplify that by crashing those same areas with a blade behind your body. I utilize the same target base no matter if I have a tool or not... If I had a gun, I would not shoot someone in the wrist or the leg unless I missed thier torso. 
A hamstring would not necessarily be the kind of target I would be worried about access in a time is life situation and the wrist isnt either... WTF would I want to target a wrist and expend more time in a hostile zone than I would if I got in there like a pro football player and start taking his life away ASAP.... Besides, the ligaments in the back of the knee and front of the elbow would be a more viable slash target for me since they are closer to the surface on big meaty people and a man without a hand can still elbow you to pulp. Still those targets only practically offer themselves when you have been compromised in a sitting kneeling or lying position.* 
_


----------



## lklawson

Three posts?



> *but if I decide to put my metal to his flesh**... HE DIES*


I would strongly suggest that you consider a strategy in which is focused on "stopping the threat and stopping when the threat stops."  

In a Self Defense situation (as opposed to either murder or dueling), you don't care whether the assailant dies or not, your goal is to STOP THE THREAT.



> *Show me prison footage where they duel or make a contest out*


Show me where I said that it had to be a prison shanking?  In fact, a large part of my point is that not everything that qualifies as a "knife fight" is a study from Folsom or a "modern North American Self Defense encounter."



> * Well , "dude" I am talking 21st century mean streets of souther  california where people get "cuban neck ties" and left in thier car to  bleed out...2 blocks from my house. I will stick to what gets me the win  against those types.*


And you should understand that this is not the only context possible, as I've mentioned several times in this thread.  There are many possible contexts and the OP deliberately left the question very open ended.  Perhaps it would have been more helpful if you would have specified your set of assumptions at the beginning instead of assuming that your specific circumstances are the same and equally valid for everyone.



> *Agreed, but it helps to read and understand before jumping to  conclusions about what was displayed on your monitor*


Have you read this thread?

Anyway, you're still assuming a specific type of "knife fight" and several specific sets of circumstances which may not always be the case.  Dudes pulling knives in Alaska in December is a different thing from dudes pulling knives in Haiti.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## OldGrunt

Ok,
  First, please alow me to apologize to everyone for reopening an old wound (post).

To the OP: there have been some good and MOSTLY accurate TECHNICAL points, so I will address that area first. For the untrained: if its comfortable in the hand swing/slash/poke/stab and hope fir the best with whatever you have on hand. That's it! That's what is "best"!
 Fir the trained: TECHNICALLY  a razor sharp edge of 1/2"-1" is all you NEED. 2 fast slashes to 2 major arteries will end your opponents life VERY VERY VERY quickly, because an adrenaline fueled heart beat wil pump the body "dry" in about a minute ir less (the more arterial strikes the faster the end). Also, the bigger/heavier the knife, the slower you can move it. Although it is almost imperceptible, it is fact. Serrations are a NO-NO....unless you are planing to saw on your opponent. A double edge allows for follow-up strikes with equal damage. You also want a handle that is still going to provide for a secure/positive forward AND reverse grips for 2 simple reasons: 1) your hand IS going to get wet from blood (definitely) and weather (possibly).  A curved blade does truly provide increased cutting edge (on the convex side), but (although shorter cutting edge) also provides a serious hooking (not "street-walker" guys, lol) capability as well as less of a chance for your opponent to grab your blade to disarm you So....while I will always love/cherrish/rely on my Kbar...my vote for "A" perfect fighting knife would be a properly Karambit.
 THIS IS JUST MY OPINION, albeit one formed from actual knife fights, but if anyone has any question about just how nadty these knives can be (in the hands of the trained at least), just google images on the wounds and check out Doug Marcaida videos on its usage.
 But as a final suggestion (and this backs up a previous response): 1 is never enough!!!!! "1 is none, 2 is one, 3 is to, etc etc etc..."

Best luck, and may you never find yourself in this situation....ever. If you do and live (and "they" die) it will never leave you, for better or worse. Some of us (everyone, not just military/LEO) can live with it (the reason my wife worries I'm going to "snap and attack" someone/some day *but only the growing pool of asses 'out there'), but most...most will be desyroyed by the memory alone (even military/LEO)


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## drop bear

Pigsticker.  At least I know it will kill something.


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## lklawson

OldGrunt said:


> Fir the trained: TECHNICALLY  a razor sharp edge of 1/2"-1" is all you NEED.


Maybe yes, maybe no.  With light (or no) clothing and lots of exposed skin, then it helps a lot.  If the physical environment dictates heavy, thick clothing, then a very small slashing area may not penetrate.



> 2 fast slashes to 2 major arteries will end your opponents life VERY VERY VERY quickly, because an adrenaline fueled heart beat wil pump the body "dry" in about a minute ir less (the more arterial strikes the faster the end).


That is true.  It is also true that stab wounds cause the same effect by damaging internal organs and veins/arteries, causing internal bleeding.  A few years back a U.S. Army study found that penetrating stab wounds were more reliably deadly and disabling than slashes.  Hoch references this study in his book.  I believe that this is because major bleeder arteries near enough the surface to cause the desired effect are harder to target accurately whereas internal organs tend to be large and easy to damage with a thrust.  Lungs, kidneys, liver, etc. are pretty big and easy to hit with a thrust when compared to the axillary artery in the armpit.

So, while I agree, it is tempered by context.  Not all contexts are the same.



> Also, the bigger/heavier the knife, the slower you can move it. Although it is almost imperceptible, it is fact.


For one person in comparison with himself, yes.  A strong person with lots of fast-twitch muscle can move a heavier knife as fast or faster than a less strong person with less fast-twitch muscle.  You can't look at someone with a 14" Bowie and think, "he'll be slow."  He might or he might not.  No way to tell until you engage.



> Serrations are a NO-NO....unless you are planing to saw on your opponent.


Nah.  Serrations increase the length of the edge, giving more "cutting length" and often the "points" of the serration protect the valleys from blunting due to impact.  That's why serrated knives are popular for commercial "steak knives."  Historically speaking, waves and flamberge were desirable but harder to make and more expensive:















> A double edge allows for follow-up strikes with equal damage.


Depending on how you define "follow-up."  It allows for "back-cuts" or what's sometimes called "false-edge" cuts.  Most of the time it's no real effort to turn the hand and follow-up with the true edge.



> You also want a handle that is still going to provide for a secure/positive forward AND reverse grips for 2 simple reasons: 1) your hand IS going to get wet from blood (definitely) and weather (possibly).


Maybe.  More certainly is sweat loss of fine motor skills and hand/finger sensitivity from adrenal dump.  So, yes, secure grip = good.  

That aside, in some historic contexts it was common for the fighters to wear leather gauntlets which both protected the hand from injury and helped ensure a grip regardless of sweat/blood/whatever.




19375 by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community



> A curved blade does truly provide increased cutting edge (on the convex side), but (although shorter cutting edge) also provides a serious hooking (not "street-walker" guys, lol) capability as well as less of a chance for your opponent to grab your blade to disarm you So....while I will always love/cherrish/rely on my Kbar...my vote for "A" perfect fighting knife would be a properly Karambit.


Or a Jambiya?  






Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Martial D

Joab said:


> Not that I intend to fight with a knife, its more of an academic question. What kind of knife is best for knife fighting? All opinions appreciated.


Two schools of thought.

1: Large and intimidating. You want to make people 'NOPE' out when they see it.

2:Small, concealable. If it's a folder you need to be able to get the blade out with one hand, quickly. You want the blade on the inside of your opponent before they know you have it.

It is arguable which is better. If I need one it's always 2, but I've fortunately never had to draw one.


----------



## Dirty Dog

The best knife is one that:
1 - is legal for concealed carry in your area
2 - can be accessed rapidly; this may mean fixed blade, auto-knife or at least one-hand opening
3 - has a good point. Thrusts are by far more effective than messy slashing
4 - does not need to be large; I've seen more people killed with 3" folders than the scary BFK because people are smooshy and when you stab them, tissues compress resulting in penetration of the blade multiple times the length of the blade.


----------



## Charlemagne

Given my choice, I would prefer something like a Fairbairn-Sykes style dagger with a double edge.  It opens up the most possibilities in regards to technique for both sak sak and pikal grips. This one by RMJ tactical is an incredible option for those looking for such a knife.
http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/n-pktq5.../IMG_6854__15572.1477495481.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

If that is not a legal option where you live, and in many states in the US it isn't, something like a Waid Covert, made by Biegler Bladeworks is a great choice for a number of reasons.  It carries well in both blade forward and blade backward positions, and works well in both sak sak and pikal grip.  My only real beef with the blade is the lack of jimping.  
https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...reen+handle+output+file+copy.jpg?format=1500w

That being said, until Texas knife laws change, which is thankfully in the works right now, my daily carry is a Spyderco Manix 2 Sprint Run.  For me, it's the perfect EDC folder (deep choil, perfect jimping, great blade shape, light weight, very solid lock, etc.).  
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/M50AAOSwol5Y4p~x/s-l1600.jpg


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## drop bear

drop bear said:


> Pigsticker.  At least I know it will kill something.








One of the things I noticed about these is the handles are big. I assume so you dont loose control of the knife.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Joab said:


> Not that I intend to fight with a knife, its more of an academic question. What kind of knife is best for knife fighting? All opinions appreciated.



A dagger I would say is one of the best choices.


----------



## iain_meyers

Joab said:


> Not that I intend to fight with a knife, its more of an academic question. What kind of knife is best for knife fighting? All opinions appreciated.



Not a folding knife. Small and easy to hide. A stabbing knife is probably best for assaulting unsuspecting people, which is what most people carry a knife for. 

I guess if you are going to have some kind of bladed weapon fight then bigger is better.


----------



## iain_meyers

This kind of knife is what most people that carry knives with the intention of hurting people will carry. People that carry knives for fantasy reasons will buy fancy fantasy knives.


----------



## Charlemagne

iain_meyers said:


> People that carry knives for fantasy reasons will buy fancy fantasy knives.



Microtech 105-7 Jagdkommando Fixed 7 inch Tri-Edge Dagger, Bead Blast Finish, Black Aluminum Sheath


----------



## Dirty Dog

Contrary to their advertising, the above is a piece of junk with very limited penetration. You'd be better off stabbed by it than a conventional flat dagger.


----------



## Charlemagne

Dirty Dog said:


> Contrary to their advertising, the above is a piece of junk with very limited penetration. You'd be better off stabbed by it than a conventional flat dagger.



I agree completely.  Please check the quote that I responded to in my post.

While the original link appears to be dead now, this is my preferred option for a knife that is to be used for defensive purposes.    





Cheers,


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Charlemagne said:


> I agree completely.  Please check the quote that I responded to in my post.
> 
> While the original link appears to be dead now, this is my preferred option for a knife that is to be used for defensive purposes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,



That is a solid knife!


----------



## Charlemagne

Brian R. VanCise said:


> That is a solid knife!



It is.  It's called the "Raider Dagger" and it is made by RMJ Tactical.  I have two of them, and they are perfect for how we train in PTK.  As soon as Sep 1 gets here, they will be legal to carry in Texas.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Yeah, nothing quite like a good double edge boot knife.  In IRT we train with them every day.  By the way a lot of cross over in what you do with what I do as I trained with Nene Tortal.


----------



## Charlemagne

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Yeah, nothing quite like a good double edge boot knife.  In IRT we train with them every day.  By the way a lot of cross over in what you do with what I do as I trained with Nene Tortal.



You don't have to sacrifice.  We practice blade edge facing in when we are in pikal grip for hooking purposes, and while knives are primarily for thrusting in a defensive situation, I do like to throw the occasional slash in there as well.  

As for the rest, I've seen some of Nene's stuff, but very little.  

Cheers!


----------



## iain_meyers

This is the type of knife you should be most scared of, because it is the type being carried by someone violent that intends to use it


----------



## Edward Cullen

Dirty Dog said:


> The best knife is one that:
> 1 - is legal for concealed carry in your area
> 2 - can be accessed rapidly; this may mean fixed blade, auto-knife or at least one-hand opening
> 3 - has a good point. Thrusts are by far more effective than messy slashing
> 4 - does not need to be large; I've seen more people killed with 3" folders than the scary BFK because people are smooshy and when you stab them, tissues compress resulting in penetration of the blade multiple times the length of the blade.


ya. I agree with you. This is the best knife.


----------



## Juany118

lklawson said:


> OK, I resisted my initial urge to be asinine and replay "a sword" or "a gun" or something else equally wanker-ish.
> 
> The truth is "best knife for knife fighting" covers a massive number of unstated and implied prerequisites.
> 
> The question has been answered *differently* numerous times by vastly varying cultures.
> 
> The reason is simple yet complex.  The heart of the question is really, "what is knife fighting?"  There are many constituents to what knife fighting is but some basics include:
> 
> 
> What is the physical build and general physical capabilities of the opponent you will likely face?
> What kind of armour or protective clothing will your likely opponent be wearing?
> Are "knife fights" usually to the death or are they more often duels of honor where wounding or "first blood" is sufficient?
> If "first blood" type duels are common, what kind of wound and location on the body is sufficient (i.e., a scar to the face, a cut to the arm, or any cut anywhere)?
> Is a knife fight likely to be initiated from surprise or ambush?
> Are there specific social (or legal) conventions on how a knife may be carried, displayed, or accessed (such as prohibitions against concealing the knife or, alternately, prohibitions against carrying *visible* knifes).
> Is your most likely available knife going to be influenced or dictated by cultural conventions such as a knife which is "traditional to that culture (i.e., navaja, skean dhu, kirpan, or kukri)?
> Are there specific legal restrictions on the type of knife you may use (i.e., single edged only, restrictions on length, no fixed blades, or no locking mechanism on folders)?
> Once you answer these and many other, similar, questions you can begin to narrow down the options of which knife is ideal for you and your requirements.
> 
> Personally, me, I happen to like Bowie Knives.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk




Again late to the party...

I would just add two things to all of the above.  

1.  What is your weather like?  Heavy winter clothing can basically be armor when it comes to shorter folders.

2. Once the knife is selected based on that criteria you need to consider how you are going to use it.  As an example a short "folder" will not, imo, be all that effective in a fight in terms of stabbing.  If you are justified in using lethal force (which a knife is considered) you would, again just my opinion, want a knife better suited to slashing.  The shortness of the blade will make it difficult to hit organs and the like so doing some decent slashing may be more effective if you are catching tendons on the hands/arms coming at you, vs trying to get inside their guard and THEN hoping you manage to hit something vital enough to stop them.  Heck I know a lot of people who were stabbed with a folder and didn't even notice that BUT they sure noticed the filleting on their forearms/hands.

My choice for self defense though is a fixed blade, double edged, Karambit.  It's dang effective for it's size and that size makes it more easily concealable than some of the other good options.  Also, if you don't train in knife fighting, the shape of the blade, along with the pikal grip, enable natural punching actions to be fairly effective in terms of using the knife.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Yeah, nothing quite like a good double edge boot knife.  In IRT we train with them every day.  By the way a lot of cross over in what you do with what I do as I trained with Nene Tortal.



Our resident knife guy does a boot knife sort of thing. His version is called a clearing knife.


----------



## hoshin1600

Juany118 said:


> As an example a short "folder" will not, imo, be all that effective in a fight in terms of stabbing. If you are justified in using lethal force (which a knife is considered) you would, again just my opinion, want a knife better suited to slashing.


i think this is going to be dependent on your first comment, of "how are you going to use it".   the tactics used will be the determining factor on the the usefulness of the weapon.
i think a jacket will limit the effectiveness of thrusts like you say, but will actually limit slash cuts more so.   its very difficult to say whether thrusts or slash are more effective because the goal is to stop the threat.  will a slash have the emotional demoralizing effect needed?? maybe.  but the chances of hitting something that will make the assailant bleed out quick enough is pretty slim if he is determined to kill you.   to be honest if your using a knife in a violent encounter where lethal force is required your pretty much screwed.


----------



## Buka

When working I carry an appropriate knife for work. In my private life I carry this.


 
Not a joke, it's the knife I prefer. Gotta' admit, it is cute.


----------



## hoshin1600

Buka said:


> When working I carry an appropriate knife for work. In my private life I carry this.
> 
> View attachment 21199
> Not a joke, it's the knife I prefer. Gotta' admit, it is cute.


and that looks actual size too.


----------



## drop bear

hoshin1600 said:


> i think this is going to be dependent on your first comment, of "how are you going to use it".   the tactics used will be the determining factor on the the usefulness of the weapon.
> i think a jacket will limit the effectiveness of thrusts like you say, but will actually limit slash cuts more so.   its very difficult to say whether thrusts or slash are more effective because the goal is to stop the threat.  will a slash have the emotional demoralizing effect needed?? maybe.  but the chances of hitting something that will make the assailant bleed out quick enough is pretty slim if he is determined to kill you.   to be honest if your using a knife in a violent encounter where lethal force is required your pretty much screwed.



In the face Chopper style.


----------



## hoshin1600

drop bear said:


> In the face Chopper style.


the  Folsom Sewing Machine is always very effective.  more so to the face and neck. gets the job done


----------



## Juany118

Oh one addition regarding my appreciation of the karambit.  To my mind a knife is a weapon of stealth, it should be felt before seen.  One interesting thing about the blade shape of the karambit is that the curve has an added bonus on top of being able to "hook".  The shape also keeps the straightline distance from handle to tip short, while at the same time having a long cutting surface.  Just to spit ball numbers let's say the straightline distance is 3.5 inches but the actual cutting edge, if you follow the contour of the blade is 5 inches.


----------



## Charlemagne

Juany118 said:


> Oh one addition regarding my appreciation of the karambit.  To my mind a knife is a weapon of stealth, it should be felt before seen.  One interesting thing about the blade shape of the karambit is that the curve has an added bonus on top of being able to "hook".  The shape also keeps the straightline distance from handle to tip short, while at the same time having a long cutting surface.  Just to spit ball numbers let's say the straightline distance is 3.5 inches but the actual cutting edge, if you follow the contour of the blade is 5 inches.




The Karambit does have interesting applications.  However, there are a couple of concerns I do have with it.  Prior to that, let me say that I pray to God that I never have to use a knife (or any tool, martial art, etc.) for defensive purposes.  I hope this all stays purely hypothetical/theoretical.

From the perspective of the shape of the blade, the ability to justify carrying it in the event that you have to use it in a defensive manner is concerning to me.  I can explain carrying my pocket folder pretty easily, as many people do that.  It has legitimate non-defensive purposes that a LEO or, God forbid, a Jury, can easily understand.  The Karambit?  Not so much in my view.  The average person, particularly in Texas where I am at, understands and accepts the use of a defensive handgun for legal concealed carry much more readily than a knife, particularly one that is shaped like a Karambit.  We can certainly debate the logic of that, but it is true nonetheless.  People have a perception of the knife as an offensive/defensive tool that is different than that of a firearm for the same purpose.  This perception, and the lack of common everyday uses for the Karambit, is the the primary reason I have refrained from purchasing or attempting to learn it. 

Secondly, in the event that one does have to use a knife in a defensive situation, you lose the ability to thrust with the knife due to the shape of the Karambit, and the knife's ability to end a confrontation quickly is enhanced by thrusting.  Sure, you can sever an artery with the Karambit, but you can do that with a straight edge as well.  However, it is pretty hard to puncture a lung, etc. with the Karambit as you have pretty much lost the thrust.

All in all, while I am intrigued by the technical aspect of Karambit use, I won't be carrying one myself.


----------



## Kababayan

Joab said:


> Not that I intend to fight with a knife, its more of an academic question. What kind of knife is best for knife fighting? All opinions appreciated.



I don't know if anyone has said this yet, as I didn't read the numerous replies, but I prefer the Kershaw Needs Work 1820.  It has a 3 inch blade, which is legal in most counties, it has a pointed blade, which cuts through the quadriceps tendon well, and is very sharp.  It's a less expensive version of the blade that Michael Janich suggests. They don't make it anymore but you can find one ebay for around $50.


----------



## Juany118

Charlemagne said:


> The Karambit does have interesting applications.  However, there are a couple of concerns I do have with it.  Prior to that, let me say that I pray to God that I never have to use a knife (or any tool, martial art, etc.) for defensive purposes.  I hope this all stays purely hypothetical/theoretical.
> 
> From the perspective of the shape of the blade, the ability to justify carrying it in the event that you have to use it in a defensive manner is concerning to me.  I can explain carrying my pocket folder pretty easily, as many people do that.  It has legitimate non-defensive purposes that a LEO or, God forbid, a Jury, can easily understand.  The Karambit?  Not so much in my view.  The average person, particularly in Texas where I am at, understands and accepts the use of a defensive handgun for legal concealed carry much more readily than a knife, particularly one that is shaped like a Karambit.  We can certainly debate the logic of that, but it is true nonetheless.  People have a perception of the knife as an offensive/defensive tool that is different than that of a firearm for the same purpose.  This perception, and the lack of common everyday uses for the Karambit, is the the primary reason I have refrained from purchasing or attempting to learn it.
> 
> Secondly, in the event that one does have to use a knife in a defensive situation, you lose the ability to thrust with the knife due to the shape of the Karambit, and the knife's ability to end a confrontation quickly is enhanced by thrusting.  Sure, you can sever an artery with the Karambit, but you can do that with a straight edge as well.  However, it is pretty hard to puncture a lung, etc. with the Karambit as you have pretty much lost the thrust.
> 
> All in all, while I am intrigued by the technical aspect of Karambit use, I won't be carrying one myself.


First agreed, I hope to never need to use it.  The same way I am glad I always found a way to get around having to use my firearm at work.

I also agree you should consult your local laws on knives.  In my neck of the woods a Karambit is legal.

As for thrusting that really depends on the design of the blade itself and training.  If you train with it trusting can be done with any karambit but I will easily grant one like I have above is far better for thrusting...






I think what I really like about it is how effective it is at "defanging the snake." Knives are like any weapon though, it's a very personal thing.


----------



## Charlemagne

Juany118 said:


> View attachment 21243
> First agreed, I hope to never need to use it.  The same way I am glad I always found a way to get around having to use my firearm at work.
> 
> I also agree you should consult your local laws on knives.  In my neck of the woods a Karambit is legal.


  My apologies for any confusion.  I wasn't actually referring to legality.  I was referring to perception on the part of any LEO who may end up investigating a defensive situation, or any jury that may be deciding on legality should it ever come down to that.  It would be very easy for a LEO to look at you twice when carrying that sort of blade when they might not do so if you had a standard pocket folder that they themselves might carry.  In addition, it would be easy for an overzealous prosecutor to paint a picture of a person who likes to train with knives, and deliberately chooses a knife which only purpose is killing other humans to a jury should something ever come to trial.

Having said that, I certainly agree that knowing your local knife laws is a good idea.



> As for thrusting that really depends on the design of the blade itself and training.  If you train with it trusting can be done with any karambit but I will easily grant one like I have above is far better for thrusting...


  Perhaps, though I am not sure about the "any Karambit" and thrusting.  You lose a good deal of depth of penetration due to the curvature of the blade. You could certainly do "punch cuts" though, particularly to certain areas like the femoral or subclavian arteries.  



> I think what I really like about it is how effective it is at "defanging the snake."


  I can certainly understand that.  I am intrigued by it for the same reason.  





> Knives are like any weapon though, it's a very personal thing.


  Indeed.  One needs to find what works for them based upon the system they study, and the corresponding assumptions, tactics, and techniques of that system.


----------



## Juany118

Charlemagne said:


> My apologies for any confusion.  I wasn't actually referring to legality.  I was referring to perception on the part of any LEO who may end up investigating a defensive situation, or any jury that may be deciding on legality should it ever come down to that.  It would be very easy for a LEO to look at you twice when carrying that sort of blade when they might not do so if you had a standard pocket folder that they themselves might carry.  In addition, it would be easy for an overzealous prosecutor to paint a picture of a person who likes to train with knives, and deliberately chooses a knife which only purpose is killing other humans to a jury should something ever come to trial.
> 
> Having said that, I certainly agree that knowing your local knife laws is a good idea.
> 
> Perhaps, though I am not sure about the "any Karambit" and thrusting.  You lose a good deal of depth of penetration due to the curvature of the blade. You could certainly do "punch cuts" though, particularly to certain areas like the femoral or subclavian arteries.
> 
> I can certainly understand that.  I am intrigued by it for the same reason.    Indeed.  One needs to find what works for them based upon the system they study, and the corresponding assumptions, tactics, and techniques of that system.




Oh I see what you are saying now.  I suppose I am projecting.  Knowing my State's laws, and being a LEO, I would not arrest someone based on that knife alone but the circumstances.  Likewise I talked to DA's in my county to confirm my interpretation of the Prohibited Offensive Weapons statute and they concurred with me.  So I guess... If you like them come to PA (just not Philly, they have their own ordinance  )

As for training what really hooked me on this blade was a seminar last year that my instructor taught.  It started with just "combat takedowns" (meaning ones where you are looking to dislocate and break) then transitioned to grappling with a karambit.  Due to it's design, and the pikal grip it's optimized for, it worked far better in a grappling scenario than your typical straight fixed blade in a hammer or saber grip.  It was rather eye opening actually.


----------



## Charlemagne

Juany118 said:


> Oh I see what you are saying now.  I suppose I am projecting.  Knowing my State's laws, and being a LEO, I would not arrest someone based on that knife alone but the circumstances.  Likewise I talked to DA's in my county to confirm my interpretation of the Prohibited Offensive Weapons statute and they concurred with me.  So I guess... If you like them come to PA (just not Philly, they have their own ordinance  )
> 
> As for training what really hooked me on this blade was a seminar last year that my instructor taught.  It started with just "combat takedowns" (meaning ones where you are looking to dislocate and break) then transitioned to grappling with a karambit.  Due to it's design, and the pikal grip it's optimized for, it worked far better in a grappling scenario than your typical straight fixed blade in a hammer or saber grip.  It was rather eye opening actually.



Cheers!


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

One thing I like about the Karambit is that it is simply and absolutely the best fruit cutting knife you will find.  I use one of mine for this all the time at home.  I have a regular one I use just in the kitchen.  That is how I use it but there are more uses.  While traveling in India one day at one of my wife's uncle's homes we had a coconut guy come to climb a tree and cut open coconut's for us.  He came with his trusty knife which was an Indian version of a Karambit.  Betcha didn't know that this is where the tool originated from.  He climbed a tree about thirty feet up cut the coconuts and then opened them easily with his knife.  Easily...  Great tool, great knife but like you Charlemagne I prefer a simple folding knife for my every day carry.  Less conspicuous and easily explained!


----------



## Juany118

Brian R. VanCise said:


> One thing I like about the Karambit is that it is simply and absolutely the best fruit cutting knife you will find.  I use one of mine for this all the time at home.  I have a regular one I use just in the kitchen.  That is how I use it but there are more uses.  While traveling in India one day at one of my wife's uncle's homes we had a coconut guy come to climb a tree and cut open coconut's for us.  He came with his trusty knife which was an Indian version of a Karambit.  Betcha didn't know that this is where the tool originated from.  He climbed a tree about thirty feet up cut the coconuts and then opened them easily with his knife.  Easily...  Great tool, great knife but like you Charlemagne I prefer a simple folding knife for my every day carry.  Less conspicuous and easily explained!




Oh let me say my EDC is a folder (Fox DART).  However I see a difference between an EDC (meaning doing most everything decently while not seeming like a threat  ) and a "fighting knife."


----------



## drop bear

Charlemagne said:


> The Karambit does have interesting applications.  However, there are a couple of concerns I do have with it.  Prior to that, let me say that I pray to God that I never have to use a knife (or any tool, martial art, etc.) for defensive purposes.  I hope this all stays purely hypothetical/theoretical.
> 
> From the perspective of the shape of the blade, the ability to justify carrying it in the event that you have to use it in a defensive manner is concerning to me.  I can explain carrying my pocket folder pretty easily, as many people do that.  It has legitimate non-defensive purposes that a LEO or, God forbid, a Jury, can easily understand.  The Karambit?  Not so much in my view.  The average person, particularly in Texas where I am at, understands and accepts the use of a defensive handgun for legal concealed carry much more readily than a knife, particularly one that is shaped like a Karambit.  We can certainly debate the logic of that, but it is true nonetheless.  People have a perception of the knife as an offensive/defensive tool that is different than that of a firearm for the same purpose.  This perception, and the lack of common everyday uses for the Karambit, is the the primary reason I have refrained from purchasing or attempting to learn it.
> 
> Secondly, in the event that one does have to use a knife in a defensive situation, you lose the ability to thrust with the knife due to the shape of the Karambit, and the knife's ability to end a confrontation quickly is enhanced by thrusting.  Sure, you can sever an artery with the Karambit, but you can do that with a straight edge as well.  However, it is pretty hard to puncture a lung, etc. with the Karambit as you have pretty much lost the thrust.
> 
> All in all, while I am intrigued by the technical aspect of Karambit use, I won't be carrying one myself.



It is a trick knife.


----------



## Juany118

drop bear said:


> It is a trick knife.



And that is based on what training and experience in edged weapon training as well as assisting victims of edged weapon assaults?  Honestly curious. The blade is very dangerous.  You can find plenty of videos on YouTube where it's ability to lacerate is demonstrated.  It does have disadvantages, less reach if in the pikal grip, depending on blade geometry harder to thrust/stab with, illegal in some jurisdictions even.  But anything that can do damage like that efficiently isn't a "trick." It's apparently good enough for members of Canada's Joint Task Force 2 (their counter terror force).  /Shrug.


----------



## drop bear

Juany118 said:


> And that is based on what training and experience in edged weapon training as well as assisting victims of edged weapon assaults?  Honestly curious. The blade is very dangerous.  You can find plenty of videos on YouTube where it's ability to lacerate is demonstrated.  It does have disadvantages, less reach if in the pikal grip, depending on blade geometry harder to thrust/stab with, illegal in some jurisdictions even.  But anything that can do damage like that efficiently isn't a "trick." It's apparently good enough for members of Canada's Joint Task Force 2 (their counter terror force).  /Shrug.



I taught scientific fighting congress for a year or so back in the day. Which was all tacticool knife.

And bounced during the Asian gang heyday. Who were incredibly stabby. They used to use swords.

Otherwise a common pastime in north qld is killing pigs with knives. Which I have friends who do. And if you can drop a hundred kilo wild pig you can probably drop a person.

Yourself?


----------



## Juany118

drop bear said:


> I taught scientific fighting congress for a year or so back in the day. Which was all tacticool knife.
> 
> And bounced during the Asian gang heyday. Who were incredibly stabby. They used to use swords.
> 
> Otherwise a common pastime in north qld is killing pigs with knives. Which I have friends who do. And if you can drop a hundred kilo wild pig you can probably drop a person.
> 
> Yourself?




Starting from bottom to top.  I study FMA (Inosanto Kali to be specific).  Also after 20 years as a LEO in a bad town I have seen more than my fair share of stabbings and slashings, some fatal.  I also test my blades when I first get them on analogues (before I cook them of course) lamb thighs are my favorite but I have used pork as well.  I have also used the karambit to dress game while hunting and Brian above already spoke of watching it used to harvest and tear a coconut open, not an unworthy feat. I believe  he also uses it quite effectively for utility tasks.  This actually makes sense to me because in the Philippines, where the blade is called a lihok, its original purpose was as a tool but as many tribal cultures do it got turned into a weapon by necessity.

As for the sword comment, that is irrelevant to this thread because we are talking about fighting knives, not swords.


Now I will partially agree with you on one point.  I feel a karambit FOLDER is tacticool, I would never use one as anything more than a box cutter.  Lacking a double edged limits your angles of attack when held in the pikal grip and makes it basically useless as a flail.  I would also apply that to some of the more outrageous "custom" designs that limit stabbing ability even more without a payoff in better slashing ability.  However a Traditional double edged, robust, full tang, karambit/lihok, (like I pictured in a previous post) while having some disadvantages, as any design does, is effective in the hands of someone trained to use it, especially in terms of laceration because that curved design is purpose built to cut things.


----------



## Buka

You have to be able to use a knife as a weapon. Simple enough statement, but* you* know whether or not you really know how to fight with a a knife.


----------



## Charlemagne

Buka said:


> You have to be able to use a knife as a weapon. Simple enough statement, but* you* know whether or not you really know how to fight with a a knife.



Good points.  I've studied a few different FMA systems now, some more focused on the knife than others (Modern Arnis, a bit of Sayoc Kali, Lacoste-Inosanto Kali, Pekiti Tirsia Kali - PTI, and now Pekiti Tirsia Kali - PTKGO).  Most of what I have seen with the knife, either in those systems, or in various demos of other "knife systems" is way too flashy and relies on things that pretty much no one will ever be able to pull off against a resisting opponent.  Sadly, the stuff I've seen with the Karambit is just as bad.  One of the major aspects I like about where I train now, compared to other systems I have trained and other things I have seen, is that the training is not that way. 

The weapon hand moves fast, and while you don't have the manipulations that you do with the long weapon, you have enough that tracking it can be very challenging at close quarters.  The disarms, defanging the snake, etc. are very unlikely unless you a) get lucky or b) are able to tap, trap, and lock (in that order) the weapon hand/arm first, which pretty much relies on a combination of many repetitions performed under pressure, and getting pretty darn lucky in that moment.

In my own personal skill set, I'm probably better with the knife and with empty hand against knife than I am anything else, and I wan't absolutely NO part in a knife fight or of going empty hand against knife.  The skilled person is never going to allow you to touch their weapon hand, so getting a tap, trap, and lock is going to be all but impossible, which pretty much negates your chances of pulling off any of those pretty disarms that you see in demos.  The unskilled person isn't going to be as concerned with protecting themselves, which means that they might be OK wtih trading shots or when you think you have your opening, they are willing to stab you right back because they don't recognize the danger (double kill).  The person who has no formal training, but knows how to use the knife is going to ambush you and it will happen so fast that none of your fancy taps, etc. are going to happen, as there will simply be no time.  Either way, it's a crap sandwich.

Despite my training and that it is probably my better skill-set, I don't hold any illusions of being some sort of "knife fighter".  I'm just a middle-aged guy who wants to get home to my family if something bad were to happen.  I train it because it gives me a better chance than if I don't.

All of that being said, I do enjoy talking about different knives as well as training, and am glad that threads like this exist!


----------



## Juany118

Charlemagne said:


> Good points.  I've studied a few different FMA systems now, some more focused on the knife than others (Modern Arnis, a bit of Sayoc Kali, Lacoste-Inosanto Kali, Pekiti Tirsia Kali - PTI, and now Pekiti Tirsia Kali - PTKGO).  Most of what I have seen with the knife, either in those systems, or in various demos of other "knife systems" is way too flashy and relies on things that pretty much no one will ever be able to pull off against a resisting opponent.  Sadly, the stuff I've seen with the Karambit is just as bad.  One of the major aspects I like about where I train now, compared to other systems I have trained and other things I have seen, is that the training is not that way.
> 
> The weapon hand moves fast, and while you don't have the manipulations that you do with the long weapon, you have enough that tracking it can be very challenging at close quarters.  The disarms, defanging the snake, etc. are very unlikely unless you a) get lucky or b) are able to tap, trap, and lock (in that order) the weapon hand/arm first, which pretty much relies on a combination of many repetitions performed under pressure, and getting pretty darn lucky in that moment.
> 
> In my own personal skill set, I'm probably better with the knife and with empty hand against knife than I am anything else, and I wan't absolutely NO part in a knife fight or of going empty hand against knife.  The skilled person is never going to allow you to touch their weapon hand, so getting a tap, trap, and lock is going to be all but impossible, which pretty much negates your chances of pulling off any of those pretty disarms that you see in demos.  The unskilled person isn't going to be as concerned with protecting themselves, which means that they might be OK wtih trading shots or when you think you have your opening, they are willing to stab you right back because they don't recognize the danger (double kill).  The person who has no formal training, but knows how to use the knife is going to ambush you and it will happen so fast that none of your fancy taps, etc. are going to happen, as there will simply be no time.  Either way, it's a crap sandwich.
> 
> Despite my training and that it is probably my better skill-set, I don't hold any illusions of being some sort of "knife fighter".  I'm just a middle-aged guy who wants to get home to my family if something bad were to happen.  I train it because it gives me a better chance than if I don't.
> 
> All of that being said, I do enjoy talking about different knives as well as training, and am glad that threads like this exist!




I have certainly seen what you see as well, regarding knife stuff (sometimes being too flashy) it's even in my school but as part of something.  My Inosanto Kali Lineage is a little weird.  It passes from Master at Arm's James Keating to my Guro.  This not only lead to some more Spanish sword influence but a "quirk" of Keatings.  He taught my Guro, and thus I am taught, with the following method.  We first learn a complicated and/or flashy method.  Then we are taught the "clean" unflashy method.  Keatings thought on that was that if you teach the student the complicated way first when you teach them the simple method the "light bulb" will go off and the simple method "sticks.". I don't have any FMA experience outside of my school however so I don't know how common, or uncommon, this idea is.

I also don't hold illusions of being a knife fighter.  In terms of "fighting" i look at the knife training as very useful because in learning to "fight" with a knife I learn to better defend long enough to transition to my firearm (thinking work.) I am what I would call a fair "dueler"/sparrer though (with stick and sword too) but that is likely because I spent many years fencing.  That gave me an appreciation for what some might call "dancing" but "dancing" only works if both opponents already have their weapons openly at the ready.  That's why I say "sparring is pressure testing, not fighting" because as often as not "fighting" starts with a surprise attack.  Here is a video that I think illustrates what I am talking about a bit dueling vs fighting... "Prepared" vs "natural position" to get surprise.


----------



## Charlemagne

Juany118 said:


> I have certainly seen what you see as well, regarding knife stuff (sometimes being too flashy) it's even in my school but as part of something.  My Inosanto Kali Lineage is a little weird.  It passes from Master at Arm's James Keating to my Guro.  This not only lead to some more Spanish sword influence but a "quirk" of Keatings.  He taught my Guro, and thus I am taught, with the following method.  We first learn a complicated and/or flashy method.  Then we are taught the "clean" unflashy method.  Keatings thought on that was that if you teach the student the complicated way first when you teach them the simple method the "light bulb" will go off and the simple method "sticks.". I don't have any FMA experience outside of my school however so I don't know how common, or uncommon, this idea is.



I haven't seen it the way you describe in any of the places I have trained unless the fancy version was being shown as a demo, but that is not a criticism, just an observation.  We start clean and simple and then build on that later.  Again, it's pretty hard to get a disarm if you can't even get control of the limb. I've heard Guro Dan say in the past that disarms are incidental if not accidental. However, when I trained in Modern Arnis, Sayoc Kali, or even Lacoste-Inosanto Kali, we did a ton of time on defanging and disarming.  Since I have been training in PTK, we rarely train those things.  They come pretty late in the system to begin with, so it is implied that you have solid basics, know how to manage distance with footwork, and understand timing. It's also implied that you have the ability to perform a tap correctly (as an attack).   



> I also don't hold illusions of being a knife fighter.  In terms of "fighting" i look at the knife training as very useful because in learning to "fight" with a knife I learn to better defend long enough to transition to my firearm (thinking work.) I am what I would call a fair "dueler"/sparrer though (with stick and sword too) but that is likely because I spent many years fencing.  That gave me an appreciation for what some might call "dancing" but "dancing" only works if both opponents already have their weapons openly at the ready.  That's why I say "sparring is pressure testing, not fighting" because as often as not "fighting" starts with a surprise attack.  Here is a video that I think illustrates what I am talking about a bit dueling vs fighting... "Prepared" vs "natural position" to get surprise.



I certainly can't disagree with any of that.  The knife is an ambush weapon most of the time.  If I only have empty hands and the other guy has a weapon, I need to survive the initial assault long enough to get to my own weapon. In order to do that, I need to react in a simple and aggressive manner, and I better have footwork to control the distance.  If he has one knife, I want two, or a long weapon, or a gun, etc.


----------



## drop bear

Juany118 said:


> Starting from bottom to top.  I study FMA (Inosanto Kali to be specific).  Also after 20 years as a LEO in a bad town I have seen more than my fair share of stabbings and slashings, some fatal.  I also test my blades when I first get them on analogues (before I cook them of course) lamb thighs are my favorite but I have used pork as well.  I have also used the karambit to dress game while hunting and Brian above already spoke of watching it used to harvest and tear a coconut open, not an unworthy feat. I believe  he also uses it quite effectively for utility tasks.  This actually makes sense to me because in the Philippines, where the blade is called a lihok, its original purpose was as a tool but as many tribal cultures do it got turned into a weapon by necessity.
> 
> As for the sword comment, that is irrelevant to this thread because we are talking about fighting knives, not swords.
> 
> 
> Now I will partially agree with you on one point.  I feel a karambit FOLDER is tacticool, I would never use one as anything more than a box cutter.  Lacking a double edged limits your angles of attack when held in the pikal grip and makes it basically useless as a flail.  I would also apply that to some of the more outrageous "custom" designs that limit stabbing ability even more without a payoff in better slashing ability.  However a Traditional double edged, robust, full tang, karambit/lihok, (like I pictured in a previous post) while having some disadvantages, as any design does, is effective in the hands of someone trained to use it, especially in terms of laceration because that curved design is purpose built to cut things.



I mostly used karabits for trickery. Like balisongs. I mean I can still knife you with one. But I can knife you with a screwdriver.

But a lot of the trapping , hooking and assorted trickery I am never going to use. I never encountered anyone else who used a knife in that manner. These people spar almost never use curved blade stuff.

A bit of defang and that is probably it.

I wouldn't get one just for coconuts.


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## Mephisto

If we’re talking practical use the only blade that matters is one that will save your life (physically and keep you out of prison). Legality has little to do with it, if you carry a specialized “fighting” knife or anything that can Be construed as a dedicated weapon you’ll be at the mercy of a jury and the opinion of the lay-person. If your tactical karambit is legal carry in your state the lay-people in your jury won’t care. You carried a specific type of weapon which can imply specific intent to some. Best to carry a ultility knife that can be found at any local sport/hardware store and can more readily one presented as a weapon of opportunity.


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## Juany118

Mephisto said:


> If we’re talking practical use the only blade that matters is one that will save your life (physically and keep you out of prison). Legality has little to do with it, if you carry a specialized “fighting” knife or anything that can Be construed as a dedicated weapon you’ll be at the mercy of a jury and the opinion of the lay-person. If your tactical karambit is legal carry in your state the lay-people in your jury won’t care. You carried a specific type of weapon which can imply specific intent to some. Best to carry a ultility knife that can be found at any local sport/hardware store and can more readily one presented as a weapon of opportunity.



Let me say first this is just based on 30 years as a cop (literally to the date as of this month).  If you use a knife in self defense you have to be justified in using lethal force, by your State Law.  So if you were allowed to use a straight blade in an encounter, and you State's law doesn't prohibit karambits, do not sweat it.  Why?

In most States, if not all, there is Preliminary hearing which is only before a Judge, no Jury at the magistrate level.  After that you can request a Habeus at the Common Pleas level (a second bite at the prelim) again just in front of a Judge.  Then, if for some reason two Judges ignored your State Law doesn't prohibit such a blade (very unlikely) you can request a Bench trial.  This means no Jury, just the Judge making a decision on law.  People keep saying "omg Juries!!!"  That's really a non-issue.

The answer is learn the specifics of your State's and Municipalities laws.  In terms of weapons bearing the system actually works well, you just have to know what the laws around you say.  Then make sure you only deploy it, as it's deadly force, when is justified.  It's really not that complicated.


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## Juany118

Juany118 said:


> Let me say first this is just based on 30 years as a cop (literally to the date as of this month).  If you use a knife in self defense you have to be justified in using lethal force, by your State Law.  So if you were allowed to use a straight blade in an encounter, and you State's law doesn't prohibit karambits, do not sweat it.  Why?
> 
> In most States, if not all, there is Preliminary hearing which is only before a Judge, no Jury at the magistrate level.  After that you can request a Habeus at the Common Pleas level (a second bite at the prelim) again just in front of a Judge.  Then, if for some reason two Judges ignored your State Law doesn't prohibit such a blade (very unlikely) you can request a Bench trial.  This means no Jury, just the Judge making a decision on law.  People keep saying "omg Juries!!!"  That's really a non-issue.
> 
> The answer is learn the specifics of your State's and Municipalities laws.  In terms of weapons bearing the system actually works well, you just have to know what the laws around you say.  Then make sure you only deploy it, as it's deadly force, when is justified.  It's really not that complicated.



Edit Dang typo.. 20 years.  Sleep drprived posting lol.  But the main take away is, 

1. Know you knife laws.
2. Understand that when you use a knife in self defense it's best to ask "if I had a gun would I be justified in shooting the person" because a knife is lethal force.

#2 is actually more important than #1 imo because if you screw up #2 it doesn't matter what knife you are carrying.


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