# age and the martial arts



## drunken mistress (Jan 29, 2004)

I am writing an article on age and the Martial Arts. I started Karate at 48 and (eight months later) I am already finding it has greatly increased my strength and flexibility. I also like the respect paid to age in Kung Fu films. I would be interested to hear from any older Martial Artists or ancedotes on the same subject.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 29, 2004)

Just a quick comment, the adage by old kung fu films regarding age is not just in the films. Studying kung fu allows me to have contact with men who have studied kung fu their whole lives and at 65 or 72 can still best a 23 year old. Its a different way of fighting, but very effective. I'm 26, been studying MA for about 18 years or so and I would rather die than face my sigung (teachers teacher) who is over 60. 

7sm


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## drunken mistress (Jan 29, 2004)

Thanks, 7SM. That was what I wanted to hear as almost every other area of life takes a negative view of age. My best friend is half Chines and has done Tai-Chi for years. She is in her sixties but sunbathes topless and wins Badminton tournaments for the county! Needless to say she looks twenty years younger.


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## wingchunner (Jan 29, 2004)

has been doing Chen style tai chi chuan for over 60 years and still going strong.

Check out http://www.immortalpalm.com

Marty


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## RCastillo (Jan 29, 2004)

I'm 48, and going strong. It's the only thing that keeps me going in life!:asian:


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## KenpoTess (Jan 29, 2004)

Hi DrunkenMistress  Welcome to the Board~!

I started training when I was in my late 30's, and now at 44 think I'm healthier than ever in my life.  I was in a nasty car accident not long after I started training and now have a titanium cage in my lumbar spine but that doesn't detract from me doing falls and rolls or grappling or anything for that matter. I woke up with a right paralyzed foot from a knick in my sciatic nerve after my back surgery and yes that did cause some issues for awhile (emotionally and physically) but I persevered and kept training, *note* the Spinal specialist said I would end up in a wheelchair and should only walk no more than 20' at a time.. I showed him 
a couple years ago I was sitting with my leg propped up and suddenly saw my toes moving.. needless to say.. I was ecstatic.   I ascertain my recovery to my daily training in AK.  I still have a few 'issues' I deal with, but I am stronger, more limber, ( think I'm the only one in our studio that can put my chest and face to my thigh during stretching) and I'm most definitely the oldest who currently trains, the rest of my clan are college students.
I plan on keeping Kicking and punching til they tell me I'm gone 

Again Great to have you aboard~!

Tess


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## Chronuss (Jan 29, 2004)

...I personally wish I could've started training when I was younger...maybe I wouldn't have had the health problems I had as an adolescent.  however, since I've been traning, I rarely ever get sick anymore.  training is definately one of the things that make me look forward to the next coming day.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by drunken mistress _
> *Thanks, 7SM. That was what I wanted to hear as almost every other area of life takes a negative view of age. My best friend is half Chines and has done Tai-Chi for years. She is in her sixties but sunbathes topless and wins Badminton tournaments for the county! Needless to say she looks twenty years younger. *



I need to take Tai Chi so I can sunbathe naked.   

Grandmaster Hatsumi of the Bujinkan is 73 or 74 and watching him move and practice the art is incredible. I only hope to be 1/2 as healthy as he is at that age... (well, ok, I hope to be just as healthy...)


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## AIKIKENJITSU (Apr 3, 2022)

I'm 78 and still going strong and fast in Kenpo. The type of art will also help determine how you will be in later years. Also watch your weight and don't develop a gut.
Sifu


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## Hyoho (Apr 3, 2022)

Started at around 18 with Karate. Teaching/practicing swords arts and nearly 75. Of course not functioning the same as my younger years but experience, excellent sense of timing and strong ki still has me on top of the game.


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## Holmejr (Apr 3, 2022)

I am 66 years of age and so far so good. I’m loosely scheduled to take my 2nd degree in June/July.  I think people stay relatively strong until older ages, but lose balance, flexibility, suppleness and fluidity. MA cultures those things. I also play singles tennis and I believe the MA’s keep me in that game. 

Eskrido de Alcuizar
Orange County, CA


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## AIKIKENJITSU (Apr 3, 2022)

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> I'm 78 and still going strong and fast in Kenpo. The type of art will also help determine how you will be in later years. Also watch your weight and don't develop a gut.
> Sifu





drunken mistress said:


> I am writing an article on age and the Martial Arts. I started Karate at 48 and (eight months later) I am already finding it has greatly increased my strength and flexibility. I also like the respect paid to age in Kung Fu films. I would be interested to hear from any older Martial Artists or ancedotes on the same subject.


A quick note. I started martial arts with Tracy Kenpo and after earning my black belt, I taught with Tracy.
Later, I studied American Kenpo. I also studied a few months of Aikido. Kenpo techniques have kept as flexible as a much younger person. That's saying a lot at age 78. But, I feel if you ever take a long break from working out on martial arts, it will be difficult to achieve what you had before  the older you are. Therefore, I workout three times a week and I teach privately in my home studio.
Hope this helps.
Sifu


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## Unkogami (Apr 3, 2022)

Age + anything = sucks


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## geezer (Apr 3, 2022)

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> I'm 78 and still going strong and fast in Kenpo. The type of art will also help determine how you will be in later years. Also *watch your weight and don't develop a gut.*
> Sifu


That's a stretch ....coming from a _Kenpo_ guy! See 0:32-0:40 in the clip below  






BTW (for those who don't know) The comedic character of Master Ken is portrayed by Matt Page an experienced martial artist who's foundation is ... you got it, _Kenpo!_
 Oh, and not to be hypocritical, I gotta admit I've been losing the battle of the bulge myself the last several years.


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## Gyakuto (Apr 4, 2022)

Without intervention, we tend to lose about 1% of our skeletal muscle mass each year after the age of 40 years, we tend to lose elastin and collagen from our tissues (which is why our skin loses it’s elasticity and appears to sags under gravity), our muscle will shorten, we lose neurones and so our reflexes slow and our proprioception becomes less efficient. Bone density decreases and our vision degrades. Thus I think it takes a great deal of _courage_ to start, as a complete beginner, a physical combat art at an older age, especially one that is particularly ‘physical’. 

Going _back_ to a combat art in later years, especially when one was quite proficient, is a different but interesting experience. All of the above factors still inhibit ones abilities but experience and indeed the reduction in fear levels mean that I was happier to try ‘riskier’ techniques that I wouldn’t have contemplated as a young man, often successfully so to the bemusement of my younger dojo-mates! So that subtle body evasion twist, (characteristic of Wado Ryu Karate) that I’d be toonscared to try as a younger man in sparring, actually works. A forward-rolling axe kick actually connects to my opponent’s abdomen. Scissor throws (kani basami) can, spectacularly, work and the trepidation to try it has gone.

So we have swings and roundabouts with advancing age in combat sports. Ones physical abilities _do_ bleed away with advancing age but perhaps these are compensated, to an extent, by other factors…but to a point!

Time is the fire in which we burn….


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## Oily Dragon (Apr 4, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Without intervention, we tend to lose about 1% of our skeletal muscle mass each year after the age of 40 years, we tend to lose elastin and collagen from our tissues (which is why our skin loses it’s elasticity and appears to sags under gravity), our muscle will shorten, we lose neurones and so our reflexes slow and our proprioception becomes less efficient. Bone density decreases and our vision degrades. Thus I think it takes a great deal of _courage_ to start, as a complete beginner, a physical combat art at an older age, especially one that is particularly ‘physical’.
> 
> Going _back_ to a combat art in later years, especially when one was quite proficient, is a different but interesting experience. All of the above factors still inhibit ones abilities but experience and indeed the reduction in fear levels mean that I was happier to try ‘riskier’ techniques that I wouldn’t have contemplated as a young man, often successfully so to the bemusement of my younger dojo-mates! So that subtle body evasion twist, (characteristic of Wado Ryu Karate) that I’d be toonscared to try as a younger man in sparring, actually works. A forward-rolling axe kick actually connects to my opponent’s abdomen. Scissor throws (kani basami) can, spectacularly, work and the trepidation to try it has gone.
> 
> ...


If time is fire, chairs are pure oxygen, and a couch is high octane gas.

If there's one thing that separates the elderly and the young, it's movement.  Young people with no limitations who sit around all day don't realize it'll hold them back someday, older people with limits who do it probably don't care anymore and have given up, and go from the recliner to the grave.

Meanwhile, there is this 800 year old looking lady who power walks down my street every day with her headphones on. She's got the right idea.

No matter how much of a mess I make doing kitchen fu (I put Bobby Flay to shame), I won't let my housemates clean up or do the dishes. When they ask why, I tell them I don't want to die young.


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 5, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> the reduction in fear levels mean that I was happier to try ‘riskier’ techniques that I wouldn’t have contemplated as a young man, often successfully so to the bemusement of my younger dojo-mates! So that subtle body evasion twist, (characteristic of Wado Ryu Karate) that I’d be too scared to try as a younger man in sparring, actually works.


Is this "reduction in fear" a result of getting older and so more accepting of the approach of our inevitable end, or a realization after many years in the art that its founding concepts actually do work?  Or do we try techniques we previously shied away from because we have lost our ego's fear of failure?  All of these?  One thing for sure, age provides certain potential compensations to physical decline.


Oily Dragon said:


> have given up, and go from the recliner to the grave.


You look at people in their sixties, and even fifties, who look and act a decade or two older.  Then you see others in their seventies who are active and vibrant.  No doubt heredity and disease play some part.  But beyond this, is there something more internal at play?  

Do some seniors, especially older veteran martial artists, possess some "spark" (_ki/chi_) that others lack?  Is this spark more common in martial artists than others who have had an active life style?


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## Gyakuto (Apr 5, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> Is this "reduction in fear" a result of getting older and so more accepting of the approach of our inevitable end, or a realization after many years in the art that its founding concepts actually do work?  Or do we try techniques we previously shied away from because we have lost our ego's fear of failure?  All of these?  One thing for sure, age provides certain potential compensations to physical decline.


Those are good observation…and like most things, it’s bound to be a bit of them all albeit in a particular order 1) A loss of the fear of failure (I don’t even comb what’s left of my hair or look in mirrors these days) leading onto… 2) the realisation that the founding concepts work after successfully applying them 3) Welcoming the sweet release of death 😳


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## mograph (Apr 5, 2022)

Here's what I've seen, found and read about aging and this sort of thing as I approach 62 (tomorrow):

we do need to keep moving, of course.
we are capable of much more than we have been led to believe by youth-focused culture.
our main deficit, relative to our youth, is recovery time.
fear of injury limits us. We need to be prudent, but also be active in a way to minimize the risk. Be stable, for example.
we have the wisdom to be able to think differently about our practice, and to distribute effort through our entire body rather than focus on a few muscles, for example. This distribution is what allows surprising feats at an advanced age.
we're no longer trying to prove anything ... hopefully.
this wisdom also allows us to eschew immediate gratification, to see incremental gains and the long view.
we don't mind doing stuff that kids would find boring, e.g. deep breathing or zhan zhuang. Because we know it pays dividends.
Carry on!


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## Fedora (Apr 5, 2022)

drunken mistress said:


> I am writing an article on age and the Martial Arts. I started Karate at 48 and (eight months later) I am already finding it has greatly increased my strength and flexibility. I also like the respect paid to age in Kung Fu films. I would be interested to hear from any older Martial Artists or ancedotes on the same subject.


I started Kung Fu San Soo in the 1990s and due to a combination of public and private classes eventually rose to 8th degree black (our terminal belt, referred to as "Master") in 2005. I am now in my (very) late 70s and can offer testimony on  San Soo and aging.

Techniques that require a young man's flexibility are no longer possible. That allows more time to practice the moves that do not require limberness. Consequently I find myself studying to greater depth a limited repertoire of the techniques my body can still do. (Begin blush) I have become pretty good at a limited number of very effective moves (end blush). 

My present abilities are adversely affected by the fact that I've never passed the Art along. My teacher's teacher (still alive), by making a living teaching San Soo on a daily basis for the past fifty years, has retained more of his skill set than I.  There's certainly something to be said for (i) instructing on a daily basis, (ii) over a long period of time, (iii) and teaching the entire corpus of the Art inumerable times. 

Good luck with your article.


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## seasoned (Apr 5, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> Do some seniors, especially older veteran martial artists, possess some "spark" (_ki/chi_) that others lack?  Is this spark more common in martial artists than others who have had an active life style?


I just turned 79 years old and have been involved in MA for the better part of 50 years. Case in point, as a young man I trained for the obvious reasons, to better myself in self-defense. As time went by my enjoyment came from teaching others to better prepare themselves for the same...After all these years of preparing myself and others and totally enjoying the interaction/camaraderie I discovered one thing. 
The "spark" of enthusiasm over the years could now be turned toward myself in retirement with the realization that my biggest opponent was and always will be within me.......


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## OLD DOG NEW TRICKS (Apr 5, 2022)

drunken mistress said:


> I am writing an article on age and the Martial Arts. I started Karate at 48 and (eight months later) I am already finding it has greatly increased my strength and flexibility. I also like the respect paid to age in Kung Fu films. I would be interested to hear from any older Martial Artists or ancedotes on the same subject.


Hello, my Grandmaster still trains and teaches and he is in his 90s. No end to the love of learning and sharing any martial art. I'm 60 now and continue to train and lift weekly. I often scare the 20 something students when they believe I'm an old overweight man and I'm still a force to be reckoned with. I'm very blessed for my health and my strength.


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## shihansmurf (Apr 18, 2022)

I'm 47 and I started in Shotokan at age 9. 38 years training now. I have branched out into Boxing, Kenpo, and JKD.  I've noticed that the cumulative effects of the injuries that I have amasses are starting to catch up to me, although to be fair, I spent 21 years in the Army so a bunch of those injuries aren't martial art related.

I do a lot of weight training which has helped mitigate the effect of the injuries.

I think I'm like Toby Keith. I'm not as good as I once was but I'm as goon once as I ever was.

Mark


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 18, 2022)

When you get old, you don't train MA for fighting. You train MA for fun and health.

As long as you can still swing your leg behind and remain good balance, you will never be old.


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## Unkogami (Apr 19, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> Is this "reduction in fear" a result of getting older and so more accepting of the approach of our inevitable end, or a realization after many years in the art that its founding concepts actually do work?  Or do we try techniques we previously shied away from because we have lost our ego's fear of failure?  All of these?  One thing for sure, age provides certain potential compensations to physical decline.
> 
> You look at people in their sixties, and even fifties, who look and act a decade or two older.  Then you see others in their seventies who are active and vibrant.  No doubt heredity and disease play some part.  But beyond this, is there something more internal at play?
> 
> Do some seniors, especially older veteran martial artists, possess some "spark" (_ki/chi_) that others lack?  Is this spark more common in martial artists than others who have had an active life style?


Seems nothing matters as much as where you live.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 19, 2022)

shihansmurf said:


> I'm 47 and I started in Shotokan at age 9. 38 years training now. I have branched out into Boxing, Kenpo, and JKD.  I've noticed that the cumulative effects of the injuries that I have amasses are starting to catch up to me, although to be fair, I spent 21 years in the Army so a bunch of those injuries aren't martial art related.
> 
> I do a lot of weight training which has helped mitigate the effect of the injuries.
> 
> ...


I have injuries from a multitude of pursuits. Some are definitely from MA, while others come from rock climbing, soccer (I think some of my knee issues start there, and probably were actually helped by my MA training), and probably picking up some new ones from my current job leading zipline tours. It's the price of being active, but I suspect many of those injuries are offset by the baseline of fitness and activity we carry into our later years.


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## Instructor (Apr 20, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I have injuries from a multitude of pursuits. Some are definitely from MA, while others come from rock climbing, soccer (I think some of my knee issues start there, and probably were actually helped by my MA training), and probably picking up some new ones from my current job leading zipline tours. It's the price of being active, but I suspect many of those injuries are offset by the baseline of fitness and activity we carry into our later years.


I've had my nose broken three times and my students smile when I yell at them to keep their hands up.


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## Unkogami (Apr 20, 2022)

Instructor said:


> I've had my nose broken three times and my students smile when I yell at them to keep their hands up.


I had my nose broken so many times that by the end of my competitive years I would bust out a gusher in almost every match. It got pretty inconvenient. But a broken nose is nothing, really.


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## Instructor (Apr 21, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> I had my nose broken so many times that by the end of my competitive years I would bust out a gusher in almost every match. It got pretty inconvenient. But a broken nose is nothing, really.


I think my wife has a thing for Owen Wilson so having a broken nose works in my favor there.


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## Unkogami (Apr 21, 2022)

Instructor said:


> I think my wife has a thing for Owen Wilson so having a broken nose works in my favor there.


That dude just looks weird.


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## Yanli (Apr 28, 2022)

drunken mistress said:


> I am writing an article on age and the Martial Arts. I started Karate at 48 and (eight months later) I am already finding it has greatly increased my strength and flexibility. I also like the respect paid to age in Kung Fu films. I would be interested to hear from any older Martial Artists or ancedotes on the same subject.


  Hello, I am 57 and been teaching for about 41 years. I started with JKD, I was young and had good strength and stamina. After medical issues through my life and having to change my style/form, I use a less intensive form. My wife and I use more Wing Chun, Wushu, and a bit of Aikido. Before it was more Kung Fu and boxing. Many say Wing Chun is for the old and the weak, well, that is so wrong. Yes, the old and weak can use it, but it is a great form for anyone.


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## Yanli (Apr 28, 2022)

mograph said:


> Here's what I've seen, found and read about aging and this sort of thing as I approach 62 (tomorrow):
> 
> we do need to keep moving, of course.
> we are capable of much more than we have been led to believe by youth-focused culture.
> ...


  I really like your post, I like how you point out factors of age that the average person does not see or recognizes. I am 57, and I am finding it harder to teach the younger generation compared to when I was young lol. They recognize my stature, but they keep contradicting me because of what they read or saw on Youtube, they see things more in the technical manner then the broad perspective. I am glad to see a student researching and not just take my word for it, but at least try the move or exercise out before contradicting. I tried suggesting to a man on another forum about using weights on his wrists and legs to build up strength in all directions, and not restrict his strength in a few directions. This turned out to be a very long discussion with another person, giving link's to various articles which to him stated opposite of what I was saying, which it was not lol. Do you have problems with the younger generation?


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## Yanli (Apr 28, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> Is this "reduction in fear" a result of getting older and so more accepting of the approach of our inevitable end, or a realization after many years in the art that its founding concepts actually do work?  Or do we try techniques we previously shied away from because we have lost our ego's fear of failure?  All of these?  One thing for sure, age provides certain potential compensations to physical decline.
> 
> You look at people in their sixties, and even fifties, who look and act a decade or two older.  Then you see others in their seventies who are active and vibrant.  No doubt heredity and disease play some part.  But beyond this, is there something more internal at play?
> 
> Do some seniors, especially older veteran martial artists, possess some "spark" (_ki/chi_) that others lack?  Is this spark more common in martial artists than others who have had an active life style?


  I think that the way someone looks is more of their attitude and lifestyle. When I was a teen-ager, many many years ago, I looked like a young adult in his 20's, now, I am 57, and I am told I look in my 40's. Of course, this is from people that know I am a Shifu, so maybe they are being polite because they know I can drop them in a second lol. As a Shifu, I have to be wise and stern, but in life I try to be fun and loving, and I make a lot of jokes, many times dirty jokes, it is nice what an old man can get away with lol.


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## Yanli (Apr 28, 2022)

OLD DOG NEW TRICKS said:


> Hello, my Grandmaster still trains and teaches and he is in his 90s. No end to the love of learning and sharing any martial art. I'm 60 now and continue to train and lift weekly. I often scare the 20 something students when they believe I'm an old overweight man and I'm still a force to be reckoned with. I'm very blessed for my health and my strength.


  Yes, it is nice putting such a surprising look on a young person. I have had young students that believe Wing Chun is for the old and the weak, so I put a 2x6 up against their chest and tell them to take a solid stance, and then show them how I can send them flying back with a wave of my hand, take that you young whipper snapper lol.


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## Yanli (Apr 28, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I have injuries from a multitude of pursuits. Some are definitely from MA, while others come from rock climbing, soccer (I think some of my knee issues start there, and probably were actually helped by my MA training), and probably picking up some new ones from my current job leading zipline tours. It's the price of being active, but I suspect many of those injuries are offset by the baseline of fitness and activity we carry into our later years.


  That is the nice thing about staying with martial arts, we may not have the stamina that we once had, but we are quicker and wiser in our fighting style. I started with JKD which entailed Kung Fu, boxing and a little Aikido. As I got older and many different medical issues, I slowly went more towards Wing Chun, Wushu, and still a little Aikido. This seems to work great with my age and medical issues. I would have to say that martial arts has greatly helped me through many of my medical issues, none of which was from my practice.


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## Yanli (Apr 28, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you get old, you don't train MA for fighting. You train MA for fun and health.
> 
> As long as you can still swing your leg behind and remain good balance, you will never be old.


  I would hate to add or contradict a sr. grandmaster, but, I tell people to train MA for the fun and health, the fighting skills are just added bonuses lol. I like to try and take the "fighting" issue out of their mind, I use the term "try" loosely lol. I found that when fighting is the main concern, the look more on how to gain power and strength, and not the smooth, grace, and accuracy of their strikes and blocks. They also ignore the importance of a solid stance and footwork.


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## Steve (Apr 28, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I have injuries from a multitude of pursuits. Some are definitely from MA, while others come from rock climbing, soccer (I think some of my knee issues start there, and probably were actually helped by my MA training), and probably picking up some new ones from my current job leading zipline tours. It's the price of being active, but I suspect many of those injuries are offset by the baseline of fitness and activity we carry into our later years.


You lead zip line tours?  That sounds like a really cool job, Gerry.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 28, 2022)

Yanli said:


> I would hate to add or contradict a sr. grandmaster,


Just so you know, the ranks you see listed under member’s names are just an indication of how many posts they’ve made on this forum. It’s just a fun way to indicate how active someone is on the discussion boards and has nothing to do with any rank they may have in the martial arts.

(KFW does also have a lot of decades practicing and teaching martial arts, but that doesn’t stop anyone else from arguing with him.  )


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## Alan0354 (Apr 28, 2022)

I am 69, I did 3 years of Tae Kwon Do in the mid 80s, had to quit due to back injury from all the high kick. But I never stop practicing at home. I have two heavy bags and still working on them every week, never stop. I also do weight training. I am still putting in about 7 hours a week in exercising.

That said, I felt good, still strong.................Until like 65. BUT then, I do get weaker even though I try very hard. Injuries start kicking in. I definitely not as strong as 10 years ago. I am not that strong nor very talent in MA, I just never stop trying. 10 years ago, I could bench 2 to 3 reps of 225lbs, 2 years ago, I could only do 7reps of 185lbs. I since working out at home due to shutting down, so I cannot gauge.

No, I don't feel just as good and just as strong as I get old. 65 seems to be a magic number, I never had knee problem, after 65, one day when I walked down the stairs, my knee buckled and almost fell down the stairs. I since has knee problem that I never injury before, just out in the blue.

I still push in weights, I still wear two weight jackets total of 72lbs to do pushups at home as bench press, 4 sets total with 20, 18, 13 and 10 reps (less reps from set to set) once a week. But I doubt I can do 7 reps of 185lbs as free weight bench press is harder.

NO, there's nothing good about getting old. I try, I really try. My speed gets slower also. Maybe that's just me, but I have suspicion that a lot of older people are fooling themselves to feel good. Yes, I can easily out muscle and fight ordinary people that are in the 40s, but come on, compare to a young person that is in shape and trained....................? Yes, I do look quite a bit younger............for my age. But trying to compare to even to a 45? I am not going to kid myself.

BUT, I am not giving up, still do exercise, my goal is to be mobile when I get old, I also exercise my brain, designing very high end hifi power amps, just learn C++ programming from a book cover to cover last year. Going to learn Python programming with my grand daughter this summer. Just got my 3rd US patent in electronics design from a contract work in 2016. Retirement is as busy as ever.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 28, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Just so you know, the ranks you see listed under member’s names are just an indication of how many posts they’ve made on this forum. It’s just a fun way to indicate how active someone is on the discussion boards and has nothing to do with any rank they may have in the martial arts.
> 
> (KFW does also have a lot of decades practicing and teaching martial arts, but that doesn’t stop anyone else from arguing with him.  )


John likely could be called a senior grandmaster and I don't think most would bat an eye. Maybe him, but that's about it.


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## Yanli (Apr 28, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Just so you know, the ranks you see listed under member’s names are just an indication of how many posts they’ve made on this forum. It’s just a fun way to indicate how active someone is on the discussion boards and has nothing to do with any rank they may have in the martial arts.
> 
> (KFW does also have a lot of decades practicing and teaching martial arts, but that doesn’t stop anyone else from arguing with him.  )


  I in no way is arguing lol, I am just indicating that I try and stay away from indicating MA for fighting, even though most see it that way.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 28, 2022)

Yanli said:


> I in no way is arguing lol, I am just indicating that I try and stay away from indicating MA for fighting, even though most see it that way.


But sparring/wrestling is "fun".

When your opponent throws 20 punches toward your head. None of his punches can land on you. You will simile in your dreams for the next 3 nights. Even money cannot buy this kind of fun.

I had put ad in local gym that I would pay $20 for anybody who is willing to spar/wrestle with me for 1 hour.

I just cannot obtain this kind of fun without physical contact. When my opponent throws punches and kicks at me. I just feel exicited.

I do know that I don't belong to the main stream. I don't expect the majority people to agree with me. So to disagree with me is normal. But if you agree with me, I'll be happy to know that there is at least one person on earth who may be as crazy as I am.


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## Yanli (Apr 28, 2022)

I do not have that type of gym by me, the closes I get to that is when you get an idiot in the bar, I do not know if I have more fun dropping someone, or watching my wife dropping someone, and I am not talking dropping another female. My wife is 4-11, 110 pounds, and 58 years old, going on 59 next month.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 28, 2022)

Yanli said:


> I found that when fighting is the main concern, the look more on how to gain power and strength, and not the smooth, grace, and accuracy of their strikes and blocks. They also ignore the importance of a solid stance and footwork.


Fighting and art don't have to be mutual exculsive.

I was a-go-go dance champ in college. I was also folk dance instructor for many years. My ballroom dance is about silver level. Tango is my favor.

Here is a sword dance that I created when I was young. 






My daughter is US and international pole dance champ. The smooth, grace, and accuracy art is plenty in my family.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 28, 2022)

Yanli said:


> I do not know if I have more fun dropping someone, or watching my wife dropping someone,


My wife throws me all the time.





You have to treat been thrown on the ground as body massage to be able to appreciate the throwing art.


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## Yanli (Apr 28, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My wife throws me all the time.
> 
> View attachment 28384
> 
> You have to treat been thrown on the ground as body massage to be able to appreciate the throwing art.


  Oh no, my wife does not throw them down, she strikes them down, that's the funniest part, this small old woman striking down a average size man that tried grabbing her. I love when I see a man put his hand on her or grabbing her, and I just smile and say that was a big mistake lol. When he finds out that he just tried grabbing a Shifu that is old enough to be his mother, that is something to laugh at for eternity lol.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 28, 2022)

Yanli said:


> Oh no, my wife does not throw them down, she strikes them down, that's the funniest part, this small old woman striking down a average size man that tried grabbing her. I love when I see a man put his hand on her or grabbing her, and I just smile and say that was a big mistake lol. When he finds out that he just tried grabbing a Shifu that is old enough to be his mother, that is something to laugh at for eternity lol.


Is this a common occurrence for you two?


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## Yanli (Apr 28, 2022)

I wouldn't say its common, or at least not common enough lol.


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## drop bear (Apr 28, 2022)

Yanli said:


> I really like your post, I like how you point out factors of age that the average person does not see or recognizes. I am 57, and I am finding it harder to teach the younger generation compared to when I was young lol. They recognize my stature, but they keep contradicting me because of what they read or saw on Youtube, they see things more in the technical manner then the broad perspective. I am glad to see a student researching and not just take my word for it, but at least try the move or exercise out before contradicting. I tried suggesting to a man on another forum about using weights on his wrists and legs to build up strength in all directions, and not restrict his strength in a few directions. This turned out to be a very long discussion with another person, giving link's to various articles which to him stated opposite of what I was saying, which it was not lol. Do you have problems with the younger generation?



Should have just said triple g does it.


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## mograph (Apr 28, 2022)

Yanli said:


> I really like your post, I like how you point out factors of age that the average person does not see or recognizes. I am 57, and I am finding it harder to teach the younger generation compared to when I was young lol. They recognize my stature, but they keep contradicting me because of what they read or saw on Youtube, they see things more in the technical manner then the broad perspective. I am glad to see a student researching and not just take my word for it, but at least try the move or exercise out before contradicting. I tried suggesting to a man on another forum about using weights on his wrists and legs to build up strength in all directions, and not restrict his strength in a few directions. This turned out to be a very long discussion with another person, giving link's to various articles which to him stated opposite of what I was saying, which it was not lol. Do you have problems with the younger generation?


Thanks. I like your idea about the weights. 

I haven't interacted with younger martial artists, given that only old Chinese people (and TCM students) seem to share interest in what I do (e.g. yiquan, qigong). We're soooo mild. I do remember one aggressive young guy a few years back in a push-hands class, but he got booted from the class eventually. I think he was angry with his father or something. 

But I do have experience teaching graphics in college, and I see a tendency towards a reliance on remote information over direct experience. They want to buy the thing, take the course, watch the video, instead of getting dirty and actually _trying_ the thing. Not everyone, but I see a trend. Also as an amateur musician, I see a lot of online questions basically asking for the step-by-step process of learning jazz improvisation. Dudes. Internalize the scales, internalize the theory, listen to good players, but you also have to just dive in and give yourself permission to screw up. Experience the act directly. So yes, why don't they _try_ the move?

Also, westerners have been taught to drill down, to take things apart, rather than unify and see the bigger picture. Both are necessary micro and macro, forest and trees. 

But yeah, we accept the authority of a YouTube video when the bar for authority is now a mouth, a camera, and a YouTube account. (sigh) Direct experience is necessary more than ever.

You might find this interesting: the author says that we have been using our left brains more than our right, and it has gotten us into trouble by focusing on the details, not the bigger picture. On theory and abstract constructs rather than direct experience.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 28, 2022)

Yanli said:


> I try and stay away from indicating MA for fighting, even though most see it that way.


My long fist teacher always said it's wrong

1. to start a fight without a good reason.
2. not to start a fight if there is a good reason.

Many MA teachers may address 1. I respect him to address 2.

One day I saw a guy tried to grab a gril and forced her into his car. The girl was screaming. People on the street just looked. Nobody offered any help. I got the guy into a head lock. The guy let go the girl. The girl ran away. I let go the guy. The guy ran away. Nobody got hurt. Everybody lived happily ever after.

Nobody like to get into a fight. Sometime you (general YOU) just have to do something even if there may be some risk involved. Because if you don't, you may dis-respect yourself for the rest of your life. That's not good.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 28, 2022)

Yanli said:


> I think that the way someone looks is more of their attitude and lifestyle. When I was a teen-ager, many many years ago, I looked like a young adult in his 20's, now, I am 57, and I am told I look in my 40's. Of course, this is from people that know I am a Shifu, so maybe they are being polite because they know I can drop them in a second lol. As a Shifu, I have to be wise and stern, but in life I try to be fun and loving, and I make a lot of jokes, many times dirty jokes, it is nice what an old man can get away with lol.


Why do you “have to be wise and stern” when teaching. I’ve learned to just be me. Students laugh and learn.


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## Alan0354 (Apr 28, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My wife throws me all the time.
> 
> View attachment 28384
> 
> You have to treat been thrown on the ground as body massage to be able to appreciate the throwing art.


That's judo!!! I learned that long long time ago!!! It is so important to know how to fall. I still practice lying on the ground, bounce on one of my foot to bounce the body up a few inches and drop down and use the hands to break the fall like judo. I want to make my body getting use to falling and strengthen my bones and hopefully I won't break any bones if I really fall. I wish I have someone to really throw me down to really toughen up my body.

I practicing stick fight on the heavy bag, I practice to get close, drop the stick, throw a few elbows and knees, then do the judo *hip throw* using the heavy bag. Too bad I don't have a training partner.

Your daughter is amazing in the video.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 28, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> That's judo!!!


That's Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling). You can see the break fall is different from the Judo break fall. In SC break fall, you use arm to protect your head instead to hit on the ground to cancel the force.






In Judo, you use your hands to break the fall. In SC, you use your legs to break the fall.


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## Alan0354 (Apr 28, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling). You can see the break fall is different from the Judo break fall. In SC break fall, you use arm to protect your head instead to hit on the ground to cancel the force.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just fine details, idea is the same. Not just breaking the fall, the throw looks the same particular the top one. Can't see the bottom one as it started in the middle of the throwing.


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 28, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Why do you “have to be wise and stern” when teaching. I’ve learned to just be me. Students laugh and learn.


Everyone has their own teaching style and personality, which may be somewhat different from each other.  If the instructor is not comfortable with himself when teaching, the students will not be comfortable.  So, whatever way he teaches, the important thing is for it to be natural and as you say, be yourself.  Most of us have different sides to our personality.  Part of teaching skill (or in any people management position) is what side to show in a given situation.

I tend to adopt a mild "wise (well, at least knowledgeable) and stern" (but kindly) style with lower belts to establish not only respectful discipline, but to emphasize that this is a martial art, potentially dangerous (especially if one is doing iai with live blades where being too casual can result in a LOT of blood).  Beginners must learn to stay on task, keep their awareness up and focus. But I dislike the drill sergeant mentality which in _some_ cases is a cover-up for the teacher's lack of confidence or a display of an inflated ego.  If your students are afraid of you, you have no business teaching.  

Now, with higher belts, it's a different story.  They have already developed the physical skills, mental attitude and respect for the art.  Now we can have some fun and joke around (which I really enjoy), and be confident a more relaxed teaching environment will not negatively impact training, learning or safety.  

A possibly related observation - Have you noticed that black belts sparring at a tournament seem to be enjoying themselves more than lower belts who seem so serious?  I think this is natural and related to the above thoughts.


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## Yanli (Apr 29, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My long fist teacher always said it's wrong
> 
> 1. to start a fight without a good reason.
> 2. not to start a fight if there is a good reason.
> ...


  I agree with that completely, I do not want my students not to fight for such circumstances, I just do not want them to focus only on the fighting perspective of MA. The students tend to focus more on getting the strength, deadly or dangerous strikes, not on blocks and stance, and so-on. Those that see the more aggressive side tend to be more aggressive, and not in a good way. My wife and I will stop fights in a bar or that, but we find more joy in the practicing of the movements in a artistic manner, such as Wushu. We are mainly Wing Chun, but we blend Wushu in the movements, So-to-speak.


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## Yanli (Apr 29, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> Everyone has their own teaching style and personality, which may be somewhat different from each other.  If the instructor is not comfortable with himself when teaching, the students will not be comfortable.  So, whatever way he teaches, the important thing is for it to be natural and as you say, be yourself.  Most of us have different sides to our personality.  Part of teaching skill (or in any people management position) is what side to show in a given situation.
> 
> I tend to adopt a mild "wise (well, at least knowledgeable) and stern" (but kindly) style with lower belts to establish not only respectful discipline, but to emphasize that this is a martial art, potentially dangerous (especially if one is doing iai with live blades where being too casual can result in a LOT of blood).  Beginners must learn to stay on task, keep their awareness up and focus. But I dislike the drill sergeant mentality which in _some_ cases is a cover-up for the teacher's lack of confidence or a display of an inflated ego.  If your students are afraid of you, you have no business teaching.
> 
> ...


  What I meant by being wise and stern, is knowing when to be wise and or stern, I do joke around, but you have to be careful not to joke too much, the students has to remember to make sure they have a degree of seriousness, otherwise they will not learn every little point and or hurt someone. I also notice that if I am teaching a child and I joke too much, the parent will get upset and feel I am not spending enough time teaching, there is always that fine line. When I first started out, I would never joke around, I was enjoying everything I was learning. I by nature am not a serious person, but that can sometimes get me into trouble lol.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 29, 2022)

Yanli said:


> We are mainly Wing Chun, but we blend Wushu in the movements, So-to-speak.


How do you blend WC and Wushu together? 

- WC is southern CMA. 
- Wushu is nothern CMA.


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## Buka (Apr 29, 2022)

I find the difficulties of aging, in a Martial Art sense, are directly related to the amount of Martial B.S you have to wade through on a yearly basis.


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## Alan0354 (Apr 29, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How do you blend WC and Wushu together?
> 
> - WC is southern CMA.
> - Wushu is nothern CMA.


Simple, pick ONLY the ones that is effective and forget the others!!

I do kick boxing and TKD, I particularly use WC punches using the baby knuckles. I am short, I need to punch up, WC punches are the BEST for that.

You seems to get stuck on what style and what style. Like the break falls, the key is don't get injured if you get thrown!!! Whatever works, use it.

I am sure there are moves in different styles that are useless, don't practice it just because you belong to that style. LEARN what works and what's not.

Also just as important, what works for you doesn't not imply at all that works for others. Everyone has to find their own way. Like lately I even try to mix in a little judo when the opponent is getting too close to punch and kick effectively and stick is useless. I also practice elbows from Muy Thai for close distance and also knees. You have to be flexible!!!


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## Alan0354 (Apr 29, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Just so you know, the ranks you see listed under member’s names are just an indication of how many posts they’ve made on this forum. It’s just a fun way to indicate how active someone is on the discussion boards and has nothing to do with any rank they may have in the martial arts.
> 
> (KFW does also have a lot of decades practicing and teaching martial arts, but that doesn’t stop anyone else from arguing with him.  )


Maybe before giving a high rank, like up to say black belt, the person has to post a video of his practice/fight or whatever they do as practice, so you get a better idea where they are at before giving the high rank. Anyone can talk a lot. One video speaks a 1000 words.

I don't deserve a 2nd deg black belt for sure. I only put in 3 years. I am not afraid to post my stick practice even though I am not good at it. I am here to learn and I learned a lot here. I don't just saying this, in school, I skipped belt test at least every other time, some times skipping two tests. If I don't feel I am up to the standard, I don't deserve it. The school never fail people, I don't believe that.

That's part of the reason I stop talking a lot here, I am not an expert, I don't want to get higher rank just because I have a loud mouth!!!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 29, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You seems to get stuck on what style and what style. Like the break falls, the key is don't get injured if you get thrown!!! Whatever works, use it.


A: Which girl should I marry to?
B: You seems to get stuck on which girl. Like marrage, the key is to find a wife. Whoever wants to marry you, take her. 

If you use your arms to protect your head from hitting on the ground, you won't be able to use your arm to hit on the ground for break fall. Since you can't do 2 different things at the same time, you have to choose one from the other.

Shuai Chiao break fall.






Judo break fall.





You either use southern CMA WC punch with 90 degree shoulder,






or you may use nothern CMA punch with 180 degree shoulder.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 29, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Maybe before giving a high rank, like up to say black belt, the person has to post a video of his practice/fight or whatever they do as practice, so you get a better idea where they are at before giving the high


So basically, completely change the purpose. I don't think so.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 29, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Maybe before giving a high rank, like up to say black belt, the person has to post a video of his practice/fight or whatever they do as practice, so you get a better idea where they are at before giving the high rank. Anyone can talk a lot. One video speaks a 1000 words.
> 
> I don't deserve a 2nd deg black belt for sure. I only put in 3 years. I am not afraid to post my stick practice even though I am not good at it. I am here to learn and I learned a lot here. I don't just saying this, in school, I skipped belt test at least every other time, some times skipping two tests. If I don't feel I am up to the standard, I don't deserve it. The school never fail people, I don't believe that.
> 
> That's part of the reason I stop talking a lot here, I am not an expert, I don't want to get higher rank just because I have a loud mouth!!!


It's not an actual rank though. No one on active on here thinks it means you are a 2nd degree black belt (and when someone new comes in and does they get corrected like Tony did).


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## Alan0354 (Apr 29, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A: Which girl should I marry to?
> B: You seems to get stuck on which girl. Like marrage, the key is to find a wife. Whoever wants to marry you, take her.
> 
> If you use your arms to protect your head from hitting on the ground, you won't be able to use your arm to hit on the ground for break fall. Since you can't do 2 different things at the same time, you have to choose one from the other.
> ...


See, the problem how you think is you can either use one or the other. This is 21st century, think about what works the best. You don't stand there and punch with square shoulder like WC, NOR do you do the exaggeration move like big step, rotating the shoulder in real fight. Common sense says you use something like WC to start, add the force by using the body and shoulder(NOT like the other one that's exaggerate the motion and slow). Something like how Bruce Lee used the WC punches. Also, the WC punch has a wrist motion that nudge the punch to add to the force that I don't see in the other one. You take what is the best and forget the part that is not useful. Look at how much the fighting scene evolved in the last 50 years starting with Bruce Lee.

As for break fall, you don't just slap the ground and leave your hand on the ground. we return our hands back to the starting position as if we never slap the ground. It is not BLACK or WHITE. 

Also, we learned how to throw people in friendly sparring, we throw the person down, but we hold onto their body a little so the person has a chance to use use either the legs to break the fall like you said or use the shoulder or elbow to break the fall. We also learn in real fight, we SHOVE the person body down to produce max pain. Or at least let go of the person and let the person fall. It's NOT up to you to use your legs to break the fall as you full back is going to hit the ground first

I know this will offend you and a lot of TMA people. Look at the fighting scene today, there's a lot to learn from those. I remember I saw those tournaments back in Hong Kong in the 60s where all different styles fighting against each other.  My first impression is how come they all looked the same??!! No matter Monkey style, or whatever style, they didn't look that different when their lives( or reputation) depends on it. I guess they know better what works and what's not. None of those fancy moves of their own style. This is way way before UFC or even Bruce Lee that advocate mixing different styles and pick out the ones that work.

Anyway, I better get off the forum, I can easily spend the whole day blocking. I cannot afford the time as I have a lot of things to do. I have been avoid coming on, this forum sent me notification and I only come in because it's about old people.

Good luck and good bye.


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## drop bear (Apr 29, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How do you blend WC and Wushu together?
> 
> - WC is southern CMA.
> - Wushu is nothern CMA.



WC is improved by adding more concepts.


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## _Simon_ (Apr 29, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How do you blend WC and Wushu together?
> 
> - WC is southern CMA.
> - Wushu is nothern CMA.


By protecting your... "centre"line... get it... get it?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 29, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> By protecting your... "centre"line... get it... get it?


But WC is a fighting art and Wushu is a performance art.


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## drop bear (Apr 29, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But WC is a fighting art and Wushu is a performance art.



Isn't wushu also sanda sort off?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 29, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Isn't wushu also sanda sort off?


This is Wushu. It's a performance art.


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## _Simon_ (Apr 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But WC is a fighting art and Wushu is a performance art.


Ah was purely an attempt at a joke hehe


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## Yanli (Apr 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How do you blend WC and Wushu together?
> 
> - WC is southern CMA.
> - Wushu is nothern CMA.


  Lol, just because one is southern and one northern, makes no difference. Take the performing aspect of Wushu, look at its smooth and graceful movement, now do any form of MA with that swift and graceful movement. It is like football players studying ballet to improve their foot movement, and yes some football players do take ballet lessons.


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But WC is a fighting art and Wushu is a performance art.


I was under the impression that Wushu was simply a generalized name for all CMA.  China has marketed Wushu in the West as a very flashy performance (action movie) style, as well as for Shaolin tourists in China.  Although there are valid, traditional, Wushu associations still promoting the traditional forms of Wushu (a.k.a. TCMA).  Are these statements incorrect?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 30, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> I was under the impression that Wushu was simply a generalized name for all CMA.  China has marketed Wushu in the West as a very flashy performance (action movie) style, as well as for Shaolin tourists in China.  Although there are valid, traditional, Wushu associations still promoting the traditional forms of Wushu (a.k.a. TCMA).  Are these statements incorrect?


Guoshu 國術 = traditional CMA.
Wushu 武術 = communist China modern performance art.

The term Guoshu was used until communist took over China.

The Central Guoshu Academy (Zhongyang Guoshuguan, 中央國術館).


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Guoshu 國術 = traditional CMA.
> Wushu 武術 = communist China modern performance art.
> 
> The term Guoshu was used until communist took over China.
> ...


Once again, I miss the old “informative” rating.


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## Yanli (May 6, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Maybe before giving a high rank, like up to say black belt, the person has to post a video of his practice/fight or whatever they do as practice, so you get a better idea where they are at before giving the high rank. Anyone can talk a lot. One video speaks a 1000 words.
> 
> I don't deserve a 2nd deg black belt for sure. I only put in 3 years. I am not afraid to post my stick practice even though I am not good at it. I am here to learn and I learned a lot here. I don't just saying this, in school, I skipped belt test at least every other time, some times skipping two tests. If I don't feel I am up to the standard, I don't deserve it. The school never fail people, I don't believe that.
> 
> That's part of the reason I stop talking a lot here, I am not an expert, I don't want to get higher rank just because I have a loud mouth!!!


  Sometimes not being an expert can be an advantage to others, we sometimes learn more from our mistakes or others, then we learn from something correct. Before I became an instructor, I thought I knew it all, just like any teenage kid lol, but when I started teaching, that is when I was truly learning more. I had gained much more knowledge as I was teaching, then I did as a student. I was seeing aspects of MA in a much more defined and comprehendible manner. This was from mistakes I made as a teacher and mistakes my students were making. Feel free to discuss anything, if your wrong, you have us to rag on you lol, and we may learn something from trying to correct you. If your correct about something, you may offer insight that someone is not aware of, not me of course, I know it all lol.


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## Yanli (May 6, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> I was under the impression that Wushu was simply a generalized name for all CMA.  China has marketed Wushu in the West as a very flashy performance (action movie) style, as well as for Shaolin tourists in China.  Although there are valid, traditional, Wushu associations still promoting the traditional forms of Wushu (a.k.a. TCMA).  Are these statements incorrect?


  Wushu has become so misunderstood from the performing art, here is a site that can give a detailed information on it (What Is the Martial Art of Wushu?). Keep in mind, Wushu has changed so much through the centuries, just like all other forms. For my school, I incorporate the grace, speed, and power of Wushu with Wing Chung. Yes, Wushu does have speed and power, but you cannot achieve that until you have achieved the grace.


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## Oily Dragon (May 6, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Guoshu 國術 = traditional CMA.
> Wushu 武術 = communist China modern performance art.
> 
> The term Guoshu was used until communist took over China.
> ...


To expand on this a bit,

modern Wushu (the sport) is basically the modern form of Daoyin (gymnastics skills) flavored with different cultural styles.  "Wu Shu" is a callback to the ancient name of the Chinese warrior arts (which includes a lot of things).  Any sparring is usually choreographed.  Competition is for points.  You will know modern wushu by silly flingy blades, and kicks that seem to defy physics.  Think Rocky IV's Russian boxing scene.  The state is running the whole show.

The modern format for combat is Guoshu or Kuoshu, there are national and international tournament systems.  That's where Sanda/Sanshou and Lei Tai rule sets can be found.  Ironically, but not surprisingly, you'll find most of the best Kuoshu outside of mainland China today.


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## Oily Dragon (May 6, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> I was under the impression that Wushu was simply a generalized name for all CMA.  China has marketed Wushu in the West as a very flashy performance (action movie) style, as well as for Shaolin tourists in China.  Although there are valid, traditional, Wushu associations still promoting the traditional forms of Wushu (a.k.a. TCMA).  Are these statements incorrect?


It always depends on who you're training with.

Alan Lee's Wu Shu Temple comes to mind.  From the name you might get the wrong idea, but this place literally defined the old school.





I don't think most people who train would get modern Wushu and traditional kung fu confused unless they were being misled.  I'm sure it does happen, sadly.


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## mograph (May 6, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Maybe before giving a high rank, like up to say black belt, the person has to post a video of his practice/fight or whatever they do as practice, so you get a better idea where they are at before giving the high rank. Anyone can talk a lot. One video speaks a 1000 words.



The rank is given to encourage people to post. More posts = higher rank. 
Positive reinforcement is the addition of something meant to increase the frequency of a behaviour. Higher rank is expected to lead to a higher frequency of posting.

We should not assume that the MT rank confers authority or martial skill.

I ignore the MT rank.


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## Yanli (May 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It always depends on who you're training with.
> 
> Alan Lee's Wu Shu Temple comes to mind.  From the name you might get the wrong idea, but this place literally defined the old school.
> 
> ...


  The main reason the two are thought of being the same is because Wushu is a branch of Kung Fu, there are many similar moves in Wushu to Kung Fu. I could go into a 10 page difference and similarities between the two, but I won't lol.


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## Oily Dragon (May 6, 2022)

Yanli said:


> The main reason the two are thought of being the same is because Wushu is a branch of Kung Fu, there are many similar moves in Wushu to Kung Fu. I could go into a 10 page difference and similarities between the two, but I won't lol


Why not?

It's a discussion forum.  You can write an essay on the differences between Kung Fu and Wushu, I'll read it.


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 6, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Why do you “have to be wise and stern” when teaching. I’ve learned to just be me. Students laugh and learn.


 Wouldn’t know any other way. Laughing does good things to the breath and the ego.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Why not?
> 
> It's a discussion forum.  You can write an essay on the differences between Kung Fu and Wushu, I'll read it.


It'd probably be better as its own thread. That said... @Yanli if you want to create a thread discussing that I'd be all for reading it.


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 6, 2022)

Buka said:


> I find the difficulties of aging, in a Martial Art sense, are directly related to the amount of Martial B.S you have to wade through on a yearly basis.


🤣


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 6, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Maybe before giving a high rank, like up to say black belt, the person has to post a video of his practice/fight or whatever they do as practice, so you get a better idea where they are at before giving the high rank. Anyone can talk a lot. One video speaks a 1000 words.
> 
> I don't deserve a 2nd deg black belt for sure. I only put in 3 years. I am not afraid to post my stick practice even though I am not good at it. I am here to learn and I learned a lot here. I don't just saying this, in school, I skipped belt test at least every other time, some times skipping two tests. If I don't feel I am up to the standard, I don't deserve it. The school never fail people, I don't believe that.
> 
> That's part of the reason I stop talking a lot here, I am not an expert, I don't want to get higher rank just because I have a loud mouth!!!


I enjoy your posts. You are not a loud mouth for posting.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 7, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I enjoy your posts. You are not a loud mouth for posting.


Yup. Anyone willing to put themselves out there on video, and discuss their own shortcomings and how to improve is welcome here. Whether it's an expert or beginner, all of us can learn about our own shortcomings that way.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 7, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Wouldn’t know any other way. Laughing does good things to the breath and the ego.


It's not the model I learned from most of my primary instructors - they were mostly the "stern and unquestionable" type. It was important to them to be seen as the primary authority in the room at any time. I found that leads to students not asking some good questions, and to the instructor not getting some important feedback (and other useful input). My primary instructor even told me, as I was entering the instructor ranks, that it was now necessary to create a separation of "us and them" between myself and students - even students who'd been my training partners just prior to that promotion. That just doesn't make good sense to me. 

One of my favorite students was one who was always questioning - in a respectful way - the thought process behind what I teach. He just had to know, and it gave me excellent food for thought. And not having to always be an absolute authority means there's no real "loss of face" when something doesn't work the way I'd intended. They know I'm human.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 7, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Maybe before giving a high rank, like up to say black belt, the person has to post a video of his practice/fight or whatever they do as practice, so you get a better idea where they are at before giving the high rank. Anyone can talk a lot. One video speaks a 1000 words.
> 
> I don't deserve a 2nd deg black belt for sure. I only put in 3 years. I am not afraid to post my stick practice even though I am not good at it. I am here to learn and I learned a lot here. I don't just saying this, in school, I skipped belt test at least every other time, some times skipping two tests. If I don't feel I am up to the standard, I don't deserve it. The school never fail people, I don't believe that.
> 
> That's part of the reason I stop talking a lot here, I am not an expert, I don't want to get higher rank just because I have a loud mouth!!!


This is an excellent example of rank only meaning whatever it is assigned within a group. My black belt in my primary art means something entirely different from my black belt (and subsequent "ranks") here on MT. Here, my rank simply means I have too much time on my hands at times (I was "top poster" many months in a row, which means about what it sounds like) and have a lot to say. And neither of those mean the same thing as @Tony Dismukes' BJJ black belt, nor @Dirty Dog's original BB in TKD, and so on.

The rank only really has good meaning if you know what it was meant to mean.


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## Yanli (May 7, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> It'd probably be better as its own thread. That said... @Yanli if you want to create a thread discussing that I'd be all for reading it.


  OK, I will make a thread of Wing Chun and Wushu


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## Yanli (May 7, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Why not?
> 
> It's a discussion forum.  You can write an essay on the differences between Kung Fu and Wushu, I'll read it.


  I will make a thread of Wing Chun and Wushu


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## Oily Dragon (May 7, 2022)

Yanli said:


> OK, I will make a thread of Wing Chun and Wushu





Yanli said:


> I will make a thread of Wing Chun and Wushu


Yes.


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## Yanli (May 7, 2022)

I did the thread in general martial arts talks, you can do a thread search for "Wing Chun and Wushu".


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## Alan0354 (May 7, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But WC is a fighting art and Wushu is a *performance ar*t.


Say what?!!!

I thought ballet is performance art. I thought modern dance is performance art. The pole dance of your daughter is performance art. Kung Fu or Wushu is FIGHTING art. It is an art of KICKING BUTT!!!

I really resist in posting already, blame on the few drinks and curiosity that I came back here!!!

Now I start to see where you come from. You treat this is performance art, that it DOES NOT MATTER it works or not as long as it looks artistic.

My question to the rest of the people here, is Martial art(TMA) a performance art or actually a fighting skill and an art of kicking butt. If it is performance art, I am in the wrong forum.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 7, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Say what?!!!
> 
> I thought ballet is performance art. I thought modern dance is performance art. The pole dance of your daughter is performance art. Kung Fu or Wushu is FIGHTING art. It is an art of KICKING BUTT!!!
> 
> ...


You seem to be confused as to what KFW was saying.

When he refers to Wushu as a performance art, he's not talking about TCMA in general or TMA in general or martial arts in general or "Wushu" in the original sense of being a generic name for fighting arts or Wing Chun or White Crane or Choy Lee Fut or Jow Ga  or any of those.

He's talking about this:





What you see in this video is a performance art created by a mandate from the Chinese government which wanted an impressive cultural art to show the world. It shows remarkable skill, athleticism, and artistry, but it is not a fighting art.

I don't know that any of our current members are practitioners of or particularly interested in this art, which is what usually goes by the name "Wushu" these days.


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## Yanli (May 7, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Say what?!!!
> 
> I thought ballet is performance art. I thought modern dance is performance art. The pole dance of your daughter is performance art. Kung Fu or Wushu is FIGHTING art. It is an art of KICKING BUTT!!!
> 
> ...


  Modern Wushu is Performance art, do not blame me, I did not label it, and grow up. Your statement "The pole dance of your daughter is performance art" was an attempt to be disrespectful, I do not have a daughter, but it is still disrespectful. Maybe you should not be posting after you have been drinking.


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## _Simon_ (May 7, 2022)

Yanli said:


> Your statement "The pole dance of your daughter is performance art" was an attempt to be disrespectful, I do not have a daughter, but it is still disrespectful.


He quoted and was replying to Kung Fu Wang with this, and he was not being disrespectful in the slightest.


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## Yanli (May 7, 2022)

Really, you do not consider "The pole dance of your daughter is performance art" to be disrespectful, any man that has a daughter would greatly disagree.


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## Oily Dragon (May 7, 2022)

Let's get real.

Very few of us are capable of "performance art" let alone real kung fu.


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## Yanli (May 7, 2022)

Oh, I greatly agree, people do not realize the difficulty in masking our moves smooth and graceful. I always have my students watch many hours of Wushu modern performance art so that they can recognize and appreciation for the art. Once they have developed an appreciation for it, they are more willing to learn it. I do not teach the full extent of it, just enough so that their moves are smooth and graceful. I am glad that someone else can recognizes the complexity of the art.


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## Alan0354 (May 7, 2022)

Yanli said:


> Modern Wushu is Performance art, do not blame me, I did not label it, and grow up. Your statement "The pole dance of your daughter is performance art" was an attempt to be disrespectful, I do not have a daughter, but it is still disrespectful. Maybe you should not be posting after you have been drinking.


No no, did you see the video posted of his daughter in post #44, *it's amazing.*







*That's incredible. *

I better stay off again!!!


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## Yanli (May 7, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> No no, did you see the video posted of his daughter in post #44, *it's amazing.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  Well, he did not state Natasha Wang, he stated "your Daughter". But thank you for pointing that out to me, her moves were smooth and demonstrated great strength.


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## Alan0354 (May 7, 2022)

Yanli said:


> Well, he did not state Natasha Wang, he stated "your Daughter". But thank you for pointing that out to me, her moves were smooth and demonstrated great strength.


I know, "pole dancing" is not a good term, but what else can I call this? It is so amazing I had to watch it again.

I have to repeat again, I am not trying to be disrespectful, it is high praise. It's incredible.


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## Yanli (May 7, 2022)

Yes, I know what you mean, I have in my much younger years watched pole dancing, and people do not recognize the time and skill that is needed to perform like that. I use to tell my wife that I go and watch strictly to admire the skill demonstrated from pole dancing, that's my story and I am sticking to it lol


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 8, 2022)

Yanli said:


> Modern Wushu is Performance art, do not blame me, I did not label it, and grow up. Your statement "The pole dance of your daughter is performance art" was an attempt to be disrespectful, I do not have a daughter, but it is still disrespectful. Maybe you should not be posting after you have been drinking.


He was referring to KFW who earlier posted a video of his daughter who is a champion pole dancer. It was not directed at you nor was it intended as disrespectful.


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 8, 2022)

Yanli said:


> Really, you do not consider "The pole dance of your daughter is performance art" to be disrespectful, any man that has a daughter would greatly disagree.


Pole dancing does not always imply stripping.


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 8, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Let's get real.
> 
> Very few of us are capable of "performance art" let alone real kung fu.


You haven’t seen my interpretive dance and haven’t a clue what I’m capable of in the kitchen. Btw real is when I get that Hung Gar iron wire thread I’ve been pining about.


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## Yanli (May 8, 2022)

It was pointed out to me already, it just threw me when he said "your daughter', he did not say his daughter or a particular video.


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## Oily Dragon (May 8, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> What you see in this video is a performance art created by a mandate from the Chinese government which wanted an impressive cultural art to show the world. It shows remarkable skill, athleticism, and artistry, but it is not a fighting art..


"And you will know modern Wushu by its springy, swishy sword".

I forget who once told me this, but it was prophecy.

I watched this video and the picked up my real dao and slowly moved through the Single Moon.  Felt like a killing machine.


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## Oily Dragon (May 8, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You haven’t seen my interpretive dance and haven’t a clue what I’m capable of in the kitchen. Btw real is when I get that Hung Gar iron wire thread I’ve been pining about.


You know somewhere there's a forum just like this one, only devoted to experimental interpretative dance.

I'll do it today.  I'm home sick with the sniffles anyway (not COVID).


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## Oily Dragon (May 8, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I know, "pole dancing" is not a good term, but what else can I call this? It is so amazing I had to watch it again.


It's an ancient Asian art form, in fact some of the best known Kung Fu fighters were also skilled in this kind of pole routine.  I'll dig up some details later.

At least a few were Wing Chun guys who could do "the Flag" which is one of the most impressive physical techniques a human can perform.

Nowadays you can see this type of thing done at Cirque de Soleil.  

And strippers definitely stole this material.


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## Dirty Dog (May 8, 2022)

Yanli said:


> Modern Wushu is Performance art, do not blame me, I did not label it, and grow up. Your statement "The pole dance of your daughter is performance art" was an attempt to be disrespectful, I do not have a daughter, but it is still disrespectful. Maybe you should not be posting after you have been drinking.


He wasn't talking to you. Go back and read it again.


Yanli said:


> Really, you do not consider "The pole dance of your daughter is performance art" to be disrespectful, any man that has a daughter would greatly disagree.


Kung Fu Wang has a daughter who competes at a world class level in pole dancing events. The athleticism and grace displayed is amazing.
The problem seems to be more yours than anyone else.
Maybe it's time you realized that we are well into the 21st century.


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## Dirty Dog (May 8, 2022)

Yanli said:


> It was pointed out to me already, it just threw me when he said "your daughter', he did not say his daughter or a particular video.


The post quotes Kung Fu Wang. The quote is clearly labeled. 
Reading... what an amazing idea!


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## OLD DOG NEW TRICKS (May 12, 2022)

Yanli said:


> Yes, it is nice putting such a surprising look on a young person. I have had young students that believe Wing Chun is for the old and the weak, so I put a 2x6 up against their chest and tell them to take a solid stance, and then show them how I can send them flying back with a wave of my hand, take that you young whipper snapper lol.


Hello Yanli, that is what I'm talking about, whipper snapper is great LOL. We can't stay the same forever (wish we could). I have recently moved from Florida to New Jersey and really cannot find my place here with Adult Kenpo, Ed Parker style training. I recently went to train at a nice MMA club with 40+ adults (A Miracle for sure). 3 adults started that day as new students, one was in his early 30s and the other was in his late 20s. The myself being in my early 60s. 15 minutes into the training the 20 something started puking all over and ran out the door in humiliation. The 30 something held on for about 20 minutes and passed out and hit the wall and ran out when he returned to a functional human, LOL. I did the entire hour and a half session and was disappointed it was over. I am 6' 2 and 310 pounds. and out of shape. I just felt they didn't have the heart or inner strength of our generation to succeed. Just my theory not a fact. I'm sure 20% of men have the inner strength but not all. thank you for responding, reply
 any time. Ron


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## OLD DOG NEW TRICKS (May 12, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I am 69, I did 3 years of Tae Kwon Do in the mid 80s, had to quit due to back injury from all the high kick. But I never stop practicing at home. I have two heavy bags and still working on them every week, never stop. I also do weight training. I am still putting in about 7 hours a week in exercising.
> 
> That said, I felt good, still strong.................Until like 65. BUT then, I do get weaker even though I try very hard. Injuries start kicking in. I definitely not as strong as 10 years ago. I am not that strong nor very talent in MA, I just never stop trying. 10 years ago, I could bench 2 to 3 reps of 225lbs, 2 years ago, I could only do 7reps of 185lbs. I since working out at home due to shutting down, so I cannot gauge.
> 
> ...


Hello, sounds like you are blessed for your age, I hope to be as strong and functionable as I get into my late 60s. I'm 60 now. Thank you for your article it is very inspiring. Ron


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## OLD DOG NEW TRICKS (May 12, 2022)

OLD DOG NEW TRICKS said:


> Hello, my Grandmaster still trains and teaches and he is in his 90s. No end to the love of learning and sharing any martial art. I'm 60 now and continue to train and lift weekly. I often scare the 20 something students when they believe I'm an old overweight man and I'm still a force to be reckoned with. I'm very blessed for my health and my strength.


Hello, those classic films have always entertained me even as a child. It was the beginning of my interest in the MA. I could not wait to fly through the air and kick 12 people at once. LOL.  Ron


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## Yanli (May 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's an ancient Asian art form, in fact some of the best known Kung Fu fighters were also skilled in this kind of pole routine.  I'll dig up some details later.
> 
> At least a few were Wing Chun guys who could do "the Flag" which is one of the most impressive physical techniques a human can perform.
> 
> ...


  If there is anything that I do not mind strippers stealing, is pole dancing, heck, they can steal anything they want, except my wallet lol.


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## Yanli (May 16, 2022)

OLD DOG NEW TRICKS said:


> Hello, those classic films have always entertained me even as a child. It was the beginning of my interest in the MA. I could not wait to fly through the air and kick 12 people at once. LOL.  Ron


  I am only up to kicking 10 people, it would be 12, but the other 2 keep moving on me lol.


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## Yanli (May 16, 2022)

OLD DOG NEW TRICKS said:


> Hello Yanli, that is what I'm talking about, whipper snapper is great LOL. We can't stay the same forever (wish we could). I have recently moved from Florida to New Jersey and really cannot find my place here with Adult Kenpo, Ed Parker style training. I recently went to train at a nice MMA club with 40+ adults (A Miracle for sure). 3 adults started that day as new students, one was in his early 30s and the other was in his late 20s. The myself being in my early 60s. 15 minutes into the training the 20 something started puking all over and ran out the door in humiliation. The 30 something held on for about 20 minutes and passed out and hit the wall and ran out when he returned to a functional human, LOL. I did the entire hour and a half session and was disappointed it was over. I am 6' 2 and 310 pounds. and out of shape. I just felt they didn't have the heart or inner strength of our generation to succeed. Just my theory not a fact. I'm sure 20% of men have the inner strength but not all. thank you for responding, replyView attachment 28420 any time. Ron


  I was taught old school, if I did something wrong, I was whipped with a stick, if the teacher felt like it, he would whip me again. Teachers can not get away with that anymore, todays students do not realize how easy they have it, and that is not helping them to the fullest. When I demonstrate a move on a student, I hit them hard enough to see I made a good contact, but they still complain when I only hit them just hard enough. I tell them, "if you can not handle me hitting you, you have already lost the fight with a real opponent". Many students can not get it trough their head that they need to be able to take a strike as importantly as being able to fight.


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## Alan0354 (May 17, 2022)

Yanli said:


> I was taught old school, if I did something wrong, I was whipped with a stick, if the teacher felt like it, he would whip me again. Teachers can not get away with that anymore, todays students do not realize how easy they have it, and that is not helping them to the fullest. When I demonstrate a move on a student, I hit them hard enough to see I made a good contact, but they still complain when I only hit them just hard enough. I tell them, "if you can not handle me hitting you, you have already lost the fight with a real opponent". Many students can not get it trough their head that they need to be able to take a strike as importantly as being able to fight.


You should make it very clear when the new student join your class, make them sign that they understand that you are going to contact reasonably hard. That if they don't want that, don't join your school.

This is to protect you from lawsuit. I don't know where are you, in US, it's so easy to sue a business. You need to protect yourself.

That said, I agree with you. If anyone not willing to be hit, they should not join a MA class. Even with a lot of care, $hit happens. I remember one time when I was sparring, I stepped in to jab, at the same time, the guy stepped in with a front kick. It wasn't even supposed to contact if I did not step in. I took it on my ribs. For the next two weeks, i could not even laugh!!!


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## Gerry Seymour (May 17, 2022)

Yanli said:


> I was taught old school, if I did something wrong, I was whipped with a stick, if the teacher felt like it, he would whip me again. Teachers can not get away with that anymore, todays students do not realize how easy they have it, and that is not helping them to the fullest. When I demonstrate a move on a student, I hit them hard enough to see I made a good contact, but they still complain when I only hit them just hard enough. I tell them, "if you can not handle me hitting you, you have already lost the fight with a real opponent". Many students can not get it trough their head that they need to be able to take a strike as importantly as being able to fight.


I see little value in constantly making "good contact" when demonstrating techniques, unless you're also allowing them to protect during that demonstration. I've seen this with instructors, and it produced a flinch reflex that interferes with training. Body conditioning (and just getting over getting hit) can be worked in much more productive ways.

To me, this comes across as a power thing - you get to hit students to assert dominance - or an odd view of what "tough" is and how to get it.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 17, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> That said, I agree with you. If anyone not willing to be hit, they should not join a MA class. Even with a lot of care, $hit happens. I remember one time when I was sparring, I stepped in to jab, at the same time, the guy stepped in with a front kick. It wasn't even supposed to contact if I did not step in. I took it on my ribs. For the next two weeks, i could not even laugh!!!


That's a very different situation from an instructor making significant contact when demonstrating a technique. Sparring (and specific conditioning exercises) are a better place for getting used to being hit.


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## Yanli (May 17, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You should make it very clear when the new student join your class, make them sign that they understand that you are going to contact reasonably hard. That if they don't want that, don't join your school.
> 
> This is to protect you from lawsuit. I don't know where are you, in US, it's so easy to sue a business. You need to protect yourself.
> 
> That said, I agree with you. If anyone not willing to be hit, they should not join a MA class. Even with a lot of care, $hit happens. I remember one time when I was sparring, I stepped in to jab, at the same time, the guy stepped in with a front kick. It wasn't even supposed to contact if I did not step in. I took it on my ribs. For the next two weeks, i could not even laugh!!!


  I do make it very clear, but some still complain, I also make it mandatory that parents stay or join in. I have been hurt a pretty good amount of times, but as the saying goes, its all a part of the job. I tell all students, "you will get hurt, if you don't, your doing something wrong". I know that is not necessarily correct, but it emphasis "you will get hurt". So many students also want to wear all these different padding's, its like they are going to be playing football. I hate when you get a mother that treats their 10 year old like he is 3 and worried about getting hurt.


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## Yanli (May 17, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I see little value in constantly making "good contact" when demonstrating techniques, unless you're also allowing them to protect during that demonstration. I've seen this with instructors, and it produced a flinch reflex that interferes with training. Body conditioning (and just getting over getting hit) can be worked in much more productive ways.
> 
> To me, this comes across as a power thing - you get to hit students to assert dominance - or an odd view of what "tough" is and how to get it.


  That was not the case with my instructor, I thought it was at first, but later I realized he was just teaching that if you want something, then there are things you have to endure. He was a very nice and gentle man, but it was his way of emphasizing, if you want it enough, then have the drive to endure anything. This not only helped through the MA, but it helped with life itself. You brought up a point about flinch reflex, the point was not to flinch, do not let pain distract you from the fight.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 18, 2022)

Yanli said:


> That was not the case with my instructor, I thought it was at first, but later I realized he was just teaching that if you want something, then there are things you have to endure. He was a very nice and gentle man, but it was his way of emphasizing, if you want it enough, then have the drive to endure anything. This not only helped through the MA, but it helped with life itself. You brought up a point about flinch reflex, the point was not to flinch, do not let pain distract you from the fight.


Being a demo partner doesn’t mirror fighting.


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## Yanli (May 19, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Being a demo partner doesn’t mirror fighting.


  Well, it is close as you can get. Once you have learned well enough to deal with pain, a real fight is nothing.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 19, 2022)

Yanli said:


> Well, it is close as you can get. Once you have learned well enough to deal with pain, a real fight is nothing.


There are a lot more things you have to learn to deal with besides pain when it comes to fighting. A demo is one thing, sparring is another, and fighting is yet another.


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## drop bear (May 19, 2022)

Yanli said:


> Well, it is close as you can get. Once you have learned well enough to deal with pain, a real fight is nothing.



 But you don't learn to deal with it. In a demo you don't wind up in deep water, dig deep in to your warrior spirit and smack the guy back. You collapse and comply and let the other guy win.


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## drop bear (May 19, 2022)

The method we use for training toughness is called shark tank.

It allows the guy to fight back. But puts them at a disadvantage because he has to constantly compete against fresh guys.


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## Yanli (May 19, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> There are a lot more things you have to learn to deal with besides pain when it comes to fighting. A demo is one thing, sparring is another, and fighting is yet another.


  Yes I know, but the subject was mainly on pain and endurance to pain lol.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 19, 2022)

Yanli said:


> Well, it is close as you can get. Once you have learned well enough to deal with pain, a real fight is nothing.


No. Being a demo partner is pretty far removed from fighting. Light & technical sparring is much closer, and that’s still pretty far from how a fight works.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The method we use for training toughness is called shark tank.
> 
> It allows the guy to fight back. But puts them at a disadvantage because he has to constantly compete against fresh guys.


This is the same concept I wanted to use as part of the test at senior student levels. It’s a great way to push the limits.


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## isshinryuronin (May 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The method we use for training toughness is called shark tank.
> 
> It allows the guy to fight back. But puts them at a disadvantage because he has to constantly compete against fresh guys.


We did this at our dojo when I was a student.  We called it "circle fighting." I hated it!  But when I had my own dojo, I put my own students thru it.  It was more than "If I had to do it, so do you."  Even though it was my least favorite training activity I recognized the value in it.  Aside from the endurance and physical toughness it developed (and learning how to conserve energy), it made us mentally tougher as well.

Fighting when you're physically exhausted, unable to fight on equal terms, and knowing that eventually it's a fight you can't win, but with no choice but to dig deep and continue on to the point of near physical collapse, fostered a mental toughness as well.  We were forced to push ourselves beyond our everyday limits (within reason). 

Kids and most teens loved this activity (They're not that smart).  Some adults did too.  But even those who did not look forward to it benefited.  I realized that, like tough love or distasteful medicine, its benefits were to be seen down the road.


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## Yanli (May 20, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> No. Being a demo partner is pretty far removed from fighting. Light & technical sparring is much closer, and that’s still pretty far from how a fight works.


Well, once again, it is as close as you can get lol.


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## Yanli (May 20, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> We did this at our dojo when I was a student.  We called it "circle fighting." I hated it!  But when I had my own dojo, I put my own students thru it.  It was more than "If I had to do it, so do you."  Even though it was my least favorite training activity I recognized the value in it.  Aside from the endurance and physical toughness it developed (and learning how to conserve energy), it made us mentally tougher as well.
> 
> Fighting when you're physically exhausted, unable to fight on equal terms, and knowing that eventually it's a fight you can't win, but with no choice but to dig deep and continue on to the point of near physical collapse, fostered a mental toughness as well.  We were forced to push ourselves beyond our everyday limits (within reason).
> 
> Kids and most teens loved this activity (They're not that smart).  Some adults did too.  But even those who did not look forward to it benefited.  I realized that, like tough love or distasteful medicine, its benefits were to be seen down the road.


  I was taught, there is no such thing as disadvantage or no chance to win, once you have that thought, you have already lost.


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## Tez3 (May 20, 2022)

Interesting to note that many who are now old were teenagers when this thread was first posted. 😁 😁😁


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 20, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> Interesting to note that many who are now old were teenagers when this thread was first posted. 😁 😁😁


Are we considering mid-late 30s old now?


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## Yanli (May 20, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> Interesting to note that many who are now old were teenagers when this thread was first posted. 😁 😁😁


  When I was a teenager, there was no internet for the public lol.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 20, 2022)

Yanli said:


> Well, once again, it is as close as you can get lol.


I pointed out something that is considerably closer. And harder sparring is even closer. There are lots of things much closer to the reality of a fight than being a demo partner.


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## Tez3 (May 21, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Are we considering mid-late 30s old now?


Doing martial arts makes your joints old. 😄


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## Oily Dragon (May 21, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> Doing martial arts makes your joints old. 😄


There are martial arts designed to make your joints feel young again.

It sucks to be an aging martial artist today, but imagine each prior century, one at a time.

Go back at least a few and you'll find that martial artists figured this out a long time ago and created new arts to mitigate the damage.


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## geezer (May 21, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How do you blend WC and Wushu together?
> 
> - WC is southern CMA.
> - Wushu is nothern CMA.


Reading through this thread I get the impression that _Yanli_ believes that wushu is circular and flowing whereas Wing Chun is linear and lacks fluid transitions. So when he talks about combining Wushu and Wing Chun he means that he is adding the missing fluidity back into Wing Chun. 

If  that is what he is saying, IMO he is entirely wrong both in his understanding of what wushu is, and in believing that Wing Chun lacks circular flowing movement and transitions. 

In my experience WC is quite fluid and does make _extensive_ use of circular and rotational movement ...but unlike performance oriented wushu, WC's movements are extremely compact, perhaps to the point of being visually and aesthetically unappealing to some.

Now, to get to your question: How do you blend northern Wushu with southern WC, I don't know anybody more qualified than _you _to discuss that, since You have studied _both! _

So, what's your opinion, John?


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## geezer (May 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It sucks to be an aging martial artist today, but *imagine each prior century, one at a time.*
> ...Go back at least a few and you'll find that martial artists figured this out a long time ago and created new arts to mitigate the damage.


If I remember back a few centuries, I didn't worry about my joints so much then,  and in spite of having a naturally stiff-jointed body type I achieved reasonably good flexibility. 

It's really only been in this century and the latter part of the previous one that my joint issues have become a serious problem. How about you?


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## Tony Dismukes (May 21, 2022)

geezer said:


> If I remember back a few centuries, I didn't worry about my joints so much then,  and in spite of having a naturally stiff-jointed body type I achieved reasonably good flexibility.
> 
> It's really only been in this century and the latter part of the previous one that my joint issues have become a serious problem. How about you?


I never had any arthritis at all during the 16th through 19th centuries.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 21, 2022)

geezer said:


> Now, to get to your question: How do you blend northern Wushu with southern WC, I don't know anybody more qualified than _you _to discuss that, since You have studied _both! _
> 
> So, what's your opinion, John?


Old MA saying said, "If you are used to open, you are not used to close. If you are used to close, you are not used to open."

The day when a long fist guy starts to train the praying mantis system, his long fist large circle (for maximum stretching and maximum power) will become praying mantis small circle (for maximum speed).

IMO, WC is similar to the praying mantis system that both emphasizes on speed. Instead of having the long fist mindset that when you train form, you should stretch yourself to the maximum, you should think about the maximum speed that you try to achieve (such as the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line, or small circle).

So the northern CMA training mind set 

- stretch to the maximum.
- maximum power generation.

should be combined with the southern CMA training mind set

- small circle is faster that large circle.
- if you want to have fast striking combo, your body should not be in a straight line.

This can cause confusion to beginners. It's like you have 2 teachers that teacher A tells you to do this:







and teacher B tells you to do this:


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## drop bear (May 21, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Old MA saying said, "If you are used to open, you are not used to close. If you are used to close, you are not used to open."
> 
> The day when a long fist guy starts to train the praying mantis system, his long fist large circle (for maximum stretching and maximum power) will become praying mantis small circle (for maximum speed).
> 
> ...



It is the artificial categories that is causing the problem though. Not the movements themselves.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 21, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> Doing martial arts makes your joints old. 😄


Truer words have never been spoken. I had the joints of a 50 year old by the time i hit 21


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## Gerry Seymour (May 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> There are martial arts designed to make your joints feel young again.
> 
> It sucks to be an aging martial artist today, but imagine each prior century, one at a time.
> 
> Go back at least a few and you'll find that martial artists figured this out a long time ago and created new arts to mitigate the damage.


A few centuries ago, few people lived to be the age most of us consider "old" today.


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## geezer (May 21, 2022)

drop bear said:


> It is the artificial categories that is causing the problem though. Not the movements themselves.


I think it's more than just the "artificial categories" since northern long-bridge and southern short-bridge are so different in stance, range, power generation and so forth that it would be quite hard to begin training both at the same time and have much progress. 

A more experienced martial artist who has a deep grasp of one of the systems might be able to train the other approach and look beyond the apparent contradictions to find the complementary aspects of each. 

That's assuming they aren't _close minded_. A lot of people are. 

Hey want to see where even WC has long-bridge techniques? Check out this:


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 21, 2022)

drop bear said:


> It is the artificial categories that is causing the problem though. Not the movements themselves.


During the beginning training stage, you want to develop foundation. The northern CMA foundation and the southern CMA foundation are different.


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## Oily Dragon (May 21, 2022)

geezer said:


> How about you?





Gerry Seymour said:


> A few centuries ago, few people lived to be the age most of us consider "old" today.


You will know a true martial artist by their injury history.

The longer the history, more injuries. 

Still, healing methods have been a critical part of some MA for at more than 500 years.  People still lived to be centurions long ago, and a lot of them were hardy people by training, not by chance.

Recovery and martial arts kind of go hand in hand, and if they don't, it's suspicious.


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## Oily Dragon (May 21, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Truer words have never been spoken. I had the joints of a 50 year old by the time i hit 21


Nobody listens to their body at 21, that's part of the problem with 50 year olds today.

A little tiger balm goes a long way.


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## Oily Dragon (May 22, 2022)

Pehlwani kushti comes to mind.  The modern champ of that art lived to be 82.

The Great Gama.  Bruce Lee wrote about him.

Reminds me of Dan Severn.


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## _Simon_ (May 22, 2022)

geezer said:


> Reading through this thread I get the impression that _Yanli_ believes that wushu is circular and flowing whereas Wing Chun is linear and lacks fluid transitions. So when he talks about combining Wushu and Wing Chun he means that he is adding the missing fluidity back into Wing Chun.
> 
> If  that is what he is saying, IMO he is entirely wrong both in his understanding of what wushu is, and in believing that Wing Chun lacks circular flowing movement and transitions.
> 
> ...


Interesting observation! This even parallels in the karate world, many styles were born through combining styles; many styles combined Shotokan and Goju ryu (the former generally known for being linear, dynamic, straight line; the latter being generally known as more fluid, circular, balance of hard and soft etc). Whether it is truly a successful blend I'm not sure! The styles themselves survived, but whether the blend is efficient and successful is another thing... Does using forms/kata from both sides truly create a blended art? Or is it more in exploring, training and instilling principles from both sides? Just random musings!


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## Flying Crane (May 22, 2022)

Consistency in your foundation and training methodology is important.  If you are blending material that requires different foundation and results in an inconsistent methodology, then you have problems.

People always want to add things from other styles and mix things together, but they often neglect to consider what things should NOT  be added.


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## Yanli (May 26, 2022)

geezer said:


> Reading through this thread I get the impression that _Yanli_ believes that wushu is circular and flowing whereas Wing Chun is linear and lacks fluid transitions. So when he talks about combining Wushu and Wing Chun he means that he is adding the missing fluidity back into Wing Chun.
> 
> If  that is what he is saying, IMO he is entirely wrong both in his understanding of what wushu is, and in believing that Wing Chun lacks circular flowing movement and transitions.
> 
> ...


  I did not say that WC does not have circler motion, or that I combine Wushu to get the circler motion. I am basically stating that Wushu helps students to learn the grace and speed to combine with WC, the Wushu provides them a form that they can better comprehend on how to incorporate with WC. I am not sure where exactly I stated anything that gave you the impression you got?


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 26, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> During the beginning training stage, you want to develop foundation. The northern CMA foundation and the southern CMA foundation are different.


These concepts can be taught in combination, it is analogous to a recipe. Correctly combined, the sum can be greater than the parts. I don’t disagree that this can be a more difficult training, but the results can also be worth the effort. Tai Chi Chuan legs and Southern Gung fu arms is an example.


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## Callen (May 26, 2022)

Yanli said:


> I am basically stating that Wushu helps students to learn the grace and speed to combine with WC, the Wushu provides them a form that they can better comprehend on how to incorporate with WC


Your statement is a bit difficult to follow, can you be more specific explaining your approach? Wushu (武術) literally means “martial art”. What exact parts (techniques, actions, forms, etc…) of wushu are you incorporating to help your students better understand Wing Chun? Also, which Wing Chun lineage or style are you teaching?

More importantly, how exactly does the wushu that you are teaching uniquely benefit the Wing Chun system in a way that the actual Wing Chun curriculum cannot?


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## OLD DOG NEW TRICKS (May 28, 2022)

Yanli said:


> I was taught old school, if I did something wrong, I was whipped with a stick, if the teacher felt like it, he would whip me again. Teachers can not get away with that anymore, todays students do not realize how easy they have it, and that is not helping them to the fullest. When I demonstrate a move on a student, I hit them hard enough to see I made a good contact, but they still complain when I only hit them just hard enough. I tell them, "if you can not handle me hitting you, you have already lost the fight with a real opponent". Many students can not get it trough their head that they need to be able to take a strike as importantly as being able to fight.


Hello again, you are on the money with the soft students. They truly need to experience the physical aspects of being lightly hit. I had a hard time with my younger students (12 and up) for the same reason. They really are not able to mentally handle being struck without interrupting thier innocent as a child. I waited for them to show the desire to go to the next step.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2022)

OLD DOG NEW TRICKS said:


> Hello again, you are on the money with the soft students. They truly need to experience the physical aspects of being lightly hit. I had a hard time with my younger students (12 and up) for the same reason. They really are not able to mentally handle being struck without interrupting thier innocent as a child. I waited for them to show the desire to go to the next step.


There's a difference between students getting used to taking soft (or even hard) hits, and an instructor hitting them with moderate contact when they are playing demo dummy. That's just not an effective place to develop that toughness, IMO.


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## isshinryuronin (May 28, 2022)

geezer said:


> look beyond the apparent contradictions to find the complementary aspects of each.


Northern Chinese, Southern Chinese, Okinawan karate and even Ju-jutsu have commonalities - All originally (or at least early on) based on attacking the 36 vital points.  IMO, even "linear" techniques are (or originally were) often circular in some respect.  The circular movement may be easily seen in some styles, more subtle (even to the point of being unnoticeable in real time) in others.  And in some, has atrophied to irrelevance.  

Circular motion allows for multiple applications as the technique travels from origin to target, as well as flow and momentum generation.  But, of course, sometimes a simple direct linear technique will do the job.  If so, does it make sense to deny linear from the style's doctrine?

The basic goal in most TMA is to attack a vital point.  In some situations, the best way to accomplish this is with a linear move. In other situations, a circular one.  It all depends on the fighters' relative positioning at that particular moment.  So, to me, the question of circular vs linear is not contradictory and style-dependent, but merely one of situational practicality and efficacy. 

There _are_ fundamental differences between styles (that's what makes them "styles").  But no style, IMO, should be structured to deny a particular class of techniques just because it's called linear or circular, long or short, or even internal or external.  As geezer mentioned, such classes of techniques are complementary, and the more experienced and openminded one is, the easier it is to take advantage of this.


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## Dirty Dog (May 28, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> Northern Chinese, Southern Chinese, Okinawan karate and even Ju-jutsu have commonalities - All originally (or at least early on) based on attacking the 36 vital points.  IMO, even "linear" techniques are (or originally were) often circular in some respect.  The circular movement may be easily seen in some styles, more subtle (even to the point of being unnoticeable in real time) in others.  And in some, has atrophied to irrelevance.


I think it is generally a mistake to say a given art is linear or circular. I also think it's a mistake to say a given art is striking or grappling. My experience is that some arts are *primarily* linear or circular, and some are *primarily* striking or grappling. None of them are purely one or the other. Taekwondo teaches circular movements, joint locks, throws, and take downs. Aikijujutsu (and it's children) teach linear movements, punching and kicking. It's more a matter of what you learn *first*.


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## Flying Crane (May 28, 2022)

I would say it also depends on how you define terms like circular and linear.  In my system, the method of power generation is circular, even when delivering a linear technique.  So in my opinion, it is all circular even when other people might see it as linear.  Because we are defining it differently.


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## geezer (May 28, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I would say it also depends on how you define terms like circular and linear.  In my system, the method of power generation is circular, even when delivering a linear technique.  So in my opinion, it is all circular even when other people might see it as linear.  Because we are defining it differently.


This is true even for a "straight punch". In the animation of a steam engine below, watch, sound off and imagine that the piston is a punching fist and the push rod is an arm, etc.  Do you see linear or _circular _motion?






Now in a Wing Chun straight punch, the elbow doesn't make a complete circle coming up and over like in the animation. but it does circle ...a very small circle which recycles a lot of the energy. Hard to see but easy to feel!

Check out the following clip (sound off) from about 3:15 - 3:25. Watch the elbows! See the circles?


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## drop bear (May 28, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> There's a difference between students getting used to taking soft (or even hard) hits, and an instructor hitting them with moderate contact when they are playing demo dummy. That's just not an effective place to develop that toughness, IMO.



Makes them less able to respond to a hard committed attack. 

You see it in the demo's they get flinchy


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## Flying Crane (May 28, 2022)

geezer said:


> This is true even for a "straight punch". In the animation of a steam engine below, watch, sound off and imagine that the piston is a punching fist and the push rod is an arm, etc.  Do you see linear or _circular _motion?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very perceptive sir.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 28, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I would say it also depends on how you define terms like circular and linear.


To me "circular punch" is using the body rotation.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 28, 2022)

It can be confused if you train both TKD roundhouse kick and MT roundhouse kick at the same time. The MT roundhouse kick requires body rotation. The TKD roundhouse kick does not.

The MT roundhouse kick is a true circular kick. The TKD roundhouse kick may look like a circular kick, since it doesn't require body rotation, it's not a true circular kick.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 28, 2022)

So a circular punch is not just to move your arm in circle. You have to move your body in circle. When you move your body in circle, even if you throw a straight punch, since your body is rotated, it's a circular punch.


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## isshinryuronin (May 29, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> the method of power generation is circular, even when delivering a linear technique.





geezer said:


> This is true even for a "straight punch". In the animation of a steam engine below, watch, sound off and imagine that the piston is a punching fist and the push rod is an arm, etc. Do you see linear or _circular _motion?





isshinryuronin said:


> IMO, even "linear" techniques are (or originally were) often circular in some respect. The circular movement may be easily seen in some styles, more subtle (even to the point of being unnoticeable in real time) in others.


Yes, these are the type of things I was talking about regarding "commonalities" between styles and the "artificial" division between circular and linear or internal and external.  Both sides (yin/yang) are usually present in most styles, and those that strongly favor only one or the other are missing out, IMO.  

I edited out detailed remarks re: circular power generation in my post (#162), but I'm glad you guys hit on it and expressed it nicely.  Sometimes the circular is not so much expressed in the arms but can be seen in the hips.    And if not even the hips, it's there in the breathing.

Another thought I had edited out (not wanting to ramble on too much) was that the segregation of hard/soft or circular/linear, etc., into separate schools of thought during MA's history was brought on by trying to reconcile combat with philosophy, or perhaps trying to imitate a particular animal (and other conjectures are possible). Having such _agendas_ may have pushed a school into one camp or the other.  If not for these forces, maybe styles would be more similar, and we would not be having these kind of discussions.  Just a thought. 

At this point in my development, I see no need to compare or analyze these various MA approaches (or even post about them anymore. )  Do natural movements in whatever way fits the situation at the time... and works.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 29, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> So a circular punch is not just to move your arm in circle. You have to move your body in circle. When you move your body in circle, even if you throw a straight punch, since your body is rotated, it's a circular punch.


And to me (because my primary art talks in "circle" language), I tend to see the circular movement even where it's not primary. The straightest punches all have a circle behind them. So, for me, it's a way of differentiating based on the path of the punch.


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 29, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think it is generally a mistake to say a given art is linear or circular. I also think it's a mistake to say a given art is striking or grappling. My experience is that some arts are *primarily* linear or circular, and some are *primarily* striking or grappling. None of them are purely one or the other. Taekwondo teaches circular movements, joint locks, throws, and take downs. Aikijujutsu (and it's children) teach linear movements, punching and kicking. It's more a matter of what you learn *first*.


Well I agree with you. There aren’t many straight lines in the body. For example, the arm might travel in a linear fashion, but, like a bullet it has to spiral to do that efficiently. The humerus bone is already under spiral torsion, which is why it so difficult to repair a proximal humerus fracture. In my opinion it is equally important to use all the opposing torques in the body to generate the force. Some are inherently under torsion like the humerus bone but others such as  supination of the forearm in opposition to pronated fist and the humerus bone must be activated with thumb cocked and saddle joint locked in place to hold it all together. In short, all motion is circular. There are no carpenter joints in the body. Maybe in Xue, but that is what happens when there is a severe bacon deficiency. Just kidding Xue.


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## Dirty Dog (May 29, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It can be confused if you train both TKD roundhouse kick and MT roundhouse kick at the same time. The MT roundhouse kick requires body rotation. The TKD roundhouse kick does not.


So according to you, I have been practicing and teaching the TKD roundhouse *incorrectly* for over 50 years?
I don't think so. Maybe your statement is just wrong.
Especially given that the young lady you chose to represent TKD talks, specifically, about the importance of rotation. 
Yeah. I think I'm going to go with "your statement is just wrong."


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## Tez3 (Jun 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You will know a true martial artist by their injury history.
> 
> The longer the history, more injuries.
> 
> ...


Most people didn't live to be centurians because they fell in the many wars the Romans engaged in, they just promoted the soldiers left. Now if you mean centenarians, that's a different thing.
There are no martial arts that heal old worn out joints, that's why we have have replacement operations. It's not necessarily injuries that cause the damage, I haven't had many, it's the constant heavy use of knees and hips especially but also other joints of the body.


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 6, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> Most people didn't live to be centurians because they fell in the many wars the Romans engaged in, they just promoted the soldiers left. Now if you mean centenarians, that's a different thing.
> There are no martial arts that heal old worn out joints, that's why we have have replacement operations. It's not necessarily injuries that cause the damage, I haven't had many, it's the constant heavy use of knees and hips especially but also other joints of the body.


Haha centurions.  Good catch.  That was unintentional but funny how you turned that around.  Centenarian.

Several martial arts contain centuries-old (and older) post-workout recovery and injury treatment methods, and topical healing liniment formulas, that's what I'm talking about.  Alcohol, menthol, camphor, and so on.  Heat herbs. The arts developed these over a long period of time to deal with the occupational injuries of being a warrior, and the constant training involved.

Part of the reason for those old worn out joints is a lack of attention to inflammation, post-training.   And let's face it, any good modern coach knows how important these things are to longevity in performance, as well as later years.

I learned through one of the styles I learned, the fine art of finding astringent in the forest.  It takes sharp eye skills.

Who would have thought that was a martial art!


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## Tez3 (Jun 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Haha centurions.  Good catch.  That was unintentional but funny how you turned that around.  Centenarian.
> 
> Several martial arts contain centuries-old (and older) post-workout recovery and injury treatment methods, and topical healing liniment formulas, that's what I'm talking about.  Alcohol, menthol, camphor, and so on.  Heat herbs. The arts developed these over a long period of time to deal with the occupational injuries of being a warrior, and the constant training involved.
> 
> ...


I like how idealistic you are, when you're my age though you'll be looking forward to getting your knee and hip replacements regardless. 😁


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 6, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> I like how idealistic you are, when you're my age though you'll be looking forward to getting your knee and hip replacements regardless. 😁


I'm all for bionics.

If I could, I'd replace about half of me.


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## Tez3 (Jun 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I'm all for bionics.
> 
> If I could, I'd replace about half of me.


I would too, then I'd have my knees replaced. 😁


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## Alan0354 (Jun 6, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> So according to you, I have been practicing and teaching the TKD roundhouse *incorrectly* for over 50 years?
> I don't think so. Maybe your statement is just wrong.
> Especially given that the young lady you chose to represent TKD talks, specifically, about the importance of rotation.
> Yeah. I think I'm going to go with "your statement is just wrong."


Ha ha, because you are not rotating your hip to the correct angle, and you knee is not at the required height......That's why you are wrong!!!!........According to him!!! 😂
😂  😂

Honestly, I learned TKD, I actually looked at Muy Thai kicks, TKD round house require more pivot(call it rotation if you want). I really like the MT side kick that doesn't require as much hip rotation and doesn't pick up the knee as high as TKD. I would rather do MT because TKD is too hard on the back with all the rotations. If I do MT, I might not have injure my back as bad.

TKD requires a person to have a lot of flexibility, I am the kind that is not too flexible(can be a lot worst too). When I got to the point of doing spin kick to the head, that's when I hurt my back. Good thing of my school was the teacher was really not too straight, he show the correct way, but he gave room for each individual instead of saying "NO, you are wrong, you have to do it this way!!". I remember there was one guy, he is not flexible, he resorted to kick side kick with knee low and literally kick upward on the side kick. BUT, do NOT catch one of his side kick, you'll go flying. He was good even though it's not really TKD kicks in the straight sense.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 6, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> I like how idealistic you are, when you're my age though you'll be looking forward to getting your knee and hip replacements regardless. 😁


Ok cards on table. How old are you two? Im 50.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I'm all for bionics.
> 
> If I could, I'd replace about half of me.


Cards on table how old are you? I’m 50,


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 6, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Honestly, I learned TKD, I actually looked at Muy Thai kicks, TKD round house require more pivot(call it rotation if you want). I really like the MT side kick that doesn't require as much hip rotation and doesn't pick up the knee as high as TKD. I would rather do MT because TKD is too hard on the back with all the rotations. If I do MT, I might not have injure my back as bad.


A supposition totally without basis. Do you have ANY evidence that MT practitioners have less back injuries than TKD?


Alan0354 said:


> TKD requires a person to have a lot of flexibility,


No, it does not. 


Alan0354 said:


> I am the kind that is not too flexible(can be a lot worst too). When I got to the point of doing spin kick to the head, that's when I hurt my back. Good thing of my school was the teacher was really not too straight, he show the correct way, but he gave room for each individual instead of saying "NO, you are wrong, you have to do it this way!!". I remember there was one guy, he is not flexible, he resorted to kick side kick with knee low and literally kick upward on the side kick. BUT, do NOT catch one of his side kick, you'll go flying.


Do you really not see how you're contradicting yourself? You say that flexibility is required for TKD and then follow up with an example of someone without much flexibility who, it seems, was doing just fine.


Alan0354 said:


> He was good even though it's not really TKD kicks in the straight sense.


It doesn't really seem that you have enough training or experience to decide that a given kick is or is not a TKD kick.


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 6, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Cards on table how old are you? I’m 50,


I'm within 10% of your age.  Honest Indian.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 6, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> A supposition totally without basis. Do you have ANY evidence that MT practitioners have less back injuries than TKD?
> 
> No, it does not.
> 
> ...


I was actually agreeing with you original post!!! I shouldn't even reply!!!

I now don't know what kind of TKD you are teaching!!! You argue just to argue? I guess I just have to put you on ignore list if I can.

That's funny you don't think you need flexibility to do TKD, you must be talking about different TKD.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 7, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I was actually agreeing with you original post!!! I shouldn't even reply!!!


No, you were not. You were making inaccurate statements. 


Alan0354 said:


> I now don't know what kind of TKD you are teaching!!! You argue just to argue? I guess I just have to put you on ignore list if I can.
> 
> That's funny you don't think you need flexibility to do TKD, you must be talking about different TKD.


I hold Dan ranks from the KKW, ITF, and MDK. None of them have a rule that demands great flexibility. 
Fortunately, the instructor you mentioned clearly understands that, even if you do not.


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## mograph (Jun 7, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> A few centuries ago, few people lived to be the age most of us consider "old" today.


Not so sure about that. If you're basing that on *average* life expectancy, you know that many people were killed off before they reached old age, bringing down the average. However, it's quite likely that someone in a relatively comfortable environment, much like what we have now in the west, would have survived to an age much closer to our "old age."

Do we really live longer than our ancestors?

Current advances might just have increased the _number_ of people who can live to their max.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 7, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> No, you were not. You were making inaccurate statements.
> 
> I hold Dan ranks from the KKW, ITF, and MDK. None of them have a rule that demands great flexibility.
> Fortunately, the instructor you mentioned clearly understands that, even if you do not.


Yes, I did agree with you on the original post, read back. I was joking to agree with you in the very first paragraph.

Yes, you can LEARN and get quite good in TKD without flexibility, BUT TKD is famous for their high kicks, if you are not flexible, there is a ceiling on how far you can go. Just look on youtube on demos and even Olympics competition, people that get up to that level are all flexible to kick to the head.

Of cause, instructors never demand that so people can learn and be reasonably good at the art. Like for people HAVE to have good ears to be good in playing music. Sure, even people that don't have good ears can learn and get up to a certain level. BUT if you don't have good ears, you are NOT going to get to high level. There is a ceiling. I know, I was a pro musician and I had a lot of students.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 7, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Yes, you can LEARN and get quite good in TKD without flexibility,


See? Being correct isn't that difficult.


Alan0354 said:


> BUT TKD is famous for their high kicks,


So what? You said a high degree of flexibility is required. It's not.


Alan0354 said:


> if you are not flexible, there is a ceiling on how far you can go. Just look on youtube on demos and even Olympics competition, people that get up to that level are all flexible to kick to the head.


World class athletes in pretty much ANY martial art that allows kicking will be able to kick to the head.
Again, this does nothing to support your claim that flexibility is required for TKD. Mostly because it is not.


Alan0354 said:


> Of cause, instructors never demand that so people can learn and be reasonably good at the art.


They don't demand it because it's not required. This is not very complicated.


Alan0354 said:


> Like for people HAVE to have good ears to be good in playing music. Sure, even people that don't have good ears can learn and get up to a certain level. BUT if you don't have good ears, you are NOT going to get to high level.


Mozart, Phil Collins, Evelyn Glennie, Mandy Harvey, Signmark, DeafBoyOne, Brian Wilson, Eric Clapton, Sting, Ozzy Osborne, Pete Townshend, Roger Daltry...
Seems to be a lot of world class musicians who disagree with you.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 7, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Mozart, Phil Collins, Evelyn Glennie, Mandy Harvey, Signmark, DeafBoyOne, Brian Wilson, Eric Clapton, Sting, Ozzy Osborne, Pete Townshend, Roger Daltry...
> Seems to be a lot of world class musicians who disagree with you.


Now you are making it up, How do you know? This is my house, I know. When I taught student, 2 months, I pretty much can see how far can they go even assuming they practice very hard.

Put it in another way, if you have a show to showcase your school, would you find one that is flexible to showcase the high kicks of TKD or one that might fight better by stiff and cannot kick above the waist? Remember, this is your show for your school. This is TKD. I did spent a few years, I know my teacher would NOT put the guy that I talked about that can kick hard, but funny looking to do demonstration in a show. Because this is TKD, famous for the kicks particular high kicks.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 7, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Now you are making it up, How do you know?


Ummm.... it's not exactly secret. Every single one of those people is a world class musician who is deaf or is severely hard of hearing. You know, people you say don't exist.


Alan0354 said:


> This is my house, I know.


Apparently your house is burning down...


Alan0354 said:


> When I taught student, 2 months, I pretty much can see how far can they go even assuming they practice very hard.


Uh huh. Sure.


Alan0354 said:


> Put it in another way, if you have a show to showcase your school, would you find one that is flexible to showcase the high kicks of TKD or one that might fight better by stiff and cannot kick above the waist? Remember, this is your show for your school. This is TKD.


When we do demos, I say "who wants to go?" and that's who goes. Because, contrary to your stubborn inability to accept the truth, TKD does not require students (or teachers) to be made of rubber.


Alan0354 said:


> I did spent a few years,


So not long enough to really know what you're talking about. Got it.


Alan0354 said:


> I know my teacher would NOT put the guy that I talked about that can kick hard, but funny looking to do demonstration in a show.


How do you know he wouldn't? Using a demo to show that you don't have to be a world class contortionist in order to practice TKD is a good thing.


Alan0354 said:


> Because this is TKD, famous for the kicks particular high kicks.


Another irrelevancy that does nothing to backup your ridiculous claim. Being known for high kicks is not the same as being requiring high kicks. 

TKD is also known for the Olympic ruleset. Are you now going to claim that TKD requires students to fight with their hands down?


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## Alan0354 (Jun 7, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Ummm.... it's not exactly secret. Every single one of those people is a world class musician who is deaf or is severely hard of hearing. You know, people you say don't exist.
> 
> Apparently your house is burning down...
> 
> ...


I give up, you are the moderator, you can be rude and you are always right. Life is not equal, I don't want to be banned.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 7, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think it is generally a mistake to say a given art is linear or circular. I also think it's a mistake to say a given art is striking or grappling. My experience is that some arts are *primarily* linear or circular, and some are *primarily* striking or grappling. None of them are purely one or the other. Taekwondo teaches circular movements, joint locks, throws, and take downs. Aikijujutsu (and it's children) teach linear movements, punching and kicking. It's more a matter of what you learn *first*.



Is a Front Kick linear or Circular? 
From the perspective of the eyes of the kicker it is linear going outward. 
From the outside observer to the right 90 degrees it has components of circular motion. 

 Pick another kick and change the frame of reference and looking at it in a 2 D way one can see linear and circular depending upon that frame of reference. 
This always confused me, and made me wonder if they understood how the body worked and how people teach and or learn which can be different from person to person, and how to review it as an observer.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 7, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I give up, you are the moderator, you can be rude and you are always right. Life is not equal, I don't want to be banned.



Alan0354,

I just reviewed the last three pages of this thread. 

I read it as you made statements that were opinion as fact. 
And then proceeded to not be clear to the point I thought you had disagreed with DirtyDog and were just making things up to see how far you could get him to respond. 

I mean the average life (career life) of a professional MT Fighter is 18 months to a few years (At most) - Yes there are exceptions. 
Or at least those were the states I had a decade ago when I did research on that topic for myself. 

To me it read and came across as MT was great and TKD was just injuries. And that without TKD your back would not be injured and that MT would not have injured your back . 

That may no be what you meant, it is what I read out of your posts. 

Disagree all you want with staff. 
Just be willing to back your comments up with data.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 7, 2022)

mograph said:


> Not so sure about that. If you're basing that on *average* life expectancy, you know that many people were killed off before they reached old age, bringing down the average. However, it's quite likely that someone in a relatively comfortable environment, much like what we have now in the west, would have survived to an age much closer to our "old age."
> 
> Do we really live longer than our ancestors?
> 
> Current advances might just have increased the _number_ of people who can live to their max.


That's why I said "few".


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## Steve (Jun 7, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I'm all for bionics.
> 
> If I could, I'd replace about half of me.


As a member in good standing of the Six Million Dollar Man Bionic Action Club for over 40 years, I fully support this. 

Here's the question... how much stuff do you need replaced in order to be able to call yourself a cyborg?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 7, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Ha ha, because you are not rotating your hip to the correct angle, and you knee is not at the required height......That's why you are wrong!!!!........According to him!!! 😂
> 😂  😂
> 
> Honestly, I learned TKD, I actually looked at Muy Thai kicks, TKD round house require more pivot(call it rotation if you want). I really like the MT side kick that doesn't require as much hip rotation and doesn't pick up the knee as high as TKD. I would rather do MT because TKD is too hard on the back with all the rotations. If I do MT, I might not have injure my back as bad.
> ...





Oily Dragon said:


> I'm within 10% of your age.  Honest Indian.


LMA


Steve said:


> As a member in good standing of the Six Million Dollar Man Bionic Action Club for over 40 years, I fully support this.
> 
> Here's the question... how much stuff do you need replaced in order to be able to call yourself a cyborg?


good question. It would not be nice to count arms or legs in the equation. I think It would have to include some kind of brain/computer interface.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> As a member in good standing of the Six Million Dollar Man Bionic Action Club for over 40 years, I fully support this.
> 
> Here's the question... how much stuff do you need replaced in order to be able to call yourself a cyborg?


Whoa sorry, that previous post was cluttered.


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 8, 2022)

Steve said:


> As a member in good standing of the Six Million Dollar Man Bionic Action Club for over 40 years, I fully support this.
> 
> Here's the question... how much stuff do you need replaced in order to be able to call yourself a cyborg?


Maybe zero.

Bionics and cybernetic organisms are slightly different things, but many modern brainiacs are making the argument that most humans are already cybernetic, because of the convergence of humans with hand held smartphones.

I dig this theory, because there's definitely some sort of psychic link between people and their phones.  Can't put em down, we get anxiety when we can't find ours, and in a lot of ways they are constantly looping feedback, even to the point of altering physical senses and consiousness.

Honestly it's the most fascinating subject next to Kung Fu and gourmet cooking for me.  How and when did the wall between man and machine break down?  We are now a globe of computer dependent humans, but not in the same way of even 20 years ago.  Today it's a far more intimate pairing. Good thing?  Bad?  Probably a lot of both.

Keep in mind, I'm just a cook who reads a lot.


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## mograph (Jun 8, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> That's why I said "few".


Got it, thanks.


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## Tez3 (Jun 16, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok cards on table. How old are you two? Im 50.


69 in November, though it's considered rude to ask a lady her age. 😂
I've fifty odd (very odd quite often) years in martial arts, as well as horse riding and did parachuting as a hobby years ago. All adds to the stress on joints and back.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 16, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> 69 in November, though it's considered rude to ask a lady her age. 😂
> I've fifty odd (very odd quite often) years in martial arts, as well as horse riding and did parachuting as a hobby years ago. All adds to the stress on joints and back.


I apologize. I just wonder who I’m talking to sometimes.


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## drop bear (Jun 16, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> I mean the average life (career life) of a professional MT Fighter is 18 months to a few years (At most) - Yes there are exceptions.
> Or at least those were the states I had a decade ago when I did research on that topic for myself



Wait what?


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## Steve (Jun 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Maybe zero.
> 
> Bionics and cybernetic organisms are slightly different things, but many modern brainiacs are making the argument that most humans are already cybernetic, because of the convergence of humans with hand held smartphones.
> 
> ...


Maybe.  I think I’d do just fine as long as there’s a crossword book in the bathroom.


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 17, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> there's definitely some sort of psychic link between people and their phones. Can't put em down, we get anxiety when we can't find ours


It's not so much of a link as a habitual dependence.  A dependence of approval by others on social media by getting "likes" (and I'm somewhat ashamed to say it pleases me, as well; that I am not immune to the lure of ego.) By the feeling that others are interested in photos of what you had for dinner, or what cute thing your cat is doing every day.  This is the hook, the "high" that ensnares.  The need for approval. _ By giving up our emotional self-reliance.   _

We delegate too much to various apps, such as not having to know how to spell. We sacrifice the more intimate and nuanced ways of personal communication, depending on premade emojis to express emotions and thoughts rather than spontaneous and natural feelings that voice and visual cues can better express.  Emoji cards are now used by autistic kids who are unable to communicate their feelings.  I'm sure if they had a choice they would rather not be dependent on them.

Like a blind person without their cane or seeing-eye dog, we find ourselves inadequate without our phones.

Delegating tasks is fine, until we find we've delegated too much of our ability to live happily within ourselves.   
We are inconvenienced if we lose tools such as a screwdriver or can-opener, but lose our phone?  Psychotic meltdown for some.  These people need to spend a few weeks in the desert, mountains or woods and find the satisfaction, harmony and reliance within themselves.  Phones are a tool to be used, not a substitution for our own humanity. 

Like martial art skills, smart phones are good when really needed, but bad when overused.

Yes, I do have a cell phone and use it primarily to phone when on the road (rarely).  My laptop at home serves my other few needs (like occasionally oversharing as I'm doing now).  Seldom to never do I find myself at a loss when away from my "smart" electronics.  But then, again, I grew up and developed in an age before home computers were invented.


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## _Simon_ (Jun 17, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> It's not so much of a link as a habitual dependence.  A dependence of approval by others on social media by getting "likes" (and I'm somewhat ashamed to say it pleases me, as well; that I am not immune to the lure of ego.) By the feeling that others are interested in photos of what you had for dinner, or what cute thing your cat is doing every day.  This is the hook, the "high" that ensnares.  The need for approval. _ By giving up our emotional self-reliance.   _
> 
> We delegate too much to various apps, such as not having to know how to spell. We sacrifice the more intimate and nuanced ways of personal communication, depending on premade emojis to express emotions and thoughts rather than spontaneous and natural feelings that voice and visual cues can better express.  Emoji cards are now used by autistic kids who are unable to communicate their feelings.  I'm sure if they had a choice they would rather not be dependent on them.
> 
> ...


I clicked "agree" as I agree 100%, but I can change it to "disagree" if it helps the cause!

🤣


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 17, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Wait what?


Ok, I guess I was wrong. 








						How long do pro Muay Thai fighters last?
					

I read that the average career of a professional Muay Thai fighter is only 4 years because the body can't take that abuse.  How long do you all think...




					forums.sherdog.com
				




It says they start at 8 on average 7 to 9 and go 21 to 22 years years old. 
So these top of the sport fighters are done by the early twenties. 
Which would be about 3 to 4 years as an adult (* From a US point of view *) 
Yes the kids fight and yes there are bets on them. Per the articles I just browsed.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 17, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> Ok, I guess I was wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That sounds more in line with my understanding. Most MT fighters start out as children and compete through early adulthood. So maybe around ten years  before they reach 18 and a few more years after that.

On the other hand you do have guys like Saenchai who is 41 and has been fighting for 24 years now.


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## drop bear (Jun 17, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That sounds more in line with my understanding. Most MT fighters start out as children and compete through early adulthood. So maybe around ten years  before they reach 18 and a few more years after that.
> 
> On the other hand you do have guys like Saenchai who is 41 and has been fighting for 24 years now.



Wayne parr just recently finished his career as well.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 17, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Wayne parr just recently finished his career as well.


30 years! That's a pretty good run.


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## drop bear (Jun 17, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> 30 years! That's a pretty good run.



Yeah that is very impressive.

 I would think about 20 years competing and hang it up at about 35 - 40 for the top guys.

A friend of mine, Nick just hung his up at about 36.





						Trainers | Heart Out Muay Thai
					






					www.heartoutmuaythai.com


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## Tez3 (Jul 4, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I apologize. I just wonder who I’m talking to sometimes.


It's OK, sometimes I wonder who I am. 😁


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