# Slashing with knives vs stabbing



## lonewolf12563

Recently I was criticized by a few about my lack of knowlege in CQC. Just to prove my point that I was making early this is a section from a document from Forensic Med lab in the UK. http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/incised_wounds.htm

The slashing type attacks that are taught in several martial arts is just nonscence in a real high threat situations. The slashing does not effectively take out your opponent. That is why they say expect to get cut. Because you will if you dance around defanging the snake or what ever.

Your only option in a life or death situation is to drop your attacker as fast as possible. To do this you must stab. Stab and continualy hit vital targets. Even this is not guarenteed to drop your opponent right away.

I know you will say that you do not want to kill your attacker only defend yourself. Well if you carry a knife sorry then you are kidding your self. If you do not kill your attacker than he will you. Probably with your knife. It is very hard to actually stab someone. It is not the same as your dojo class sparring. Most people can not handle it when is for real. They freeze or thier flight instinct kicks in. You have to have a certain mindset to actually stab and kill someone. It deals with a lot of psychology. There are books on this that cover this better than I can explain. 
So when you join your local club and train all these fancyful knife techniques and sparring back and forth becoming a " knife fighter", just know it doesn't go down like that when it is for real. And all those sweeping slashes, largo mano ect go right out the door. 

Ed


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## Flatlander

I think its good that you have found a technique that you feel confident with, but I wouldn't bee to hasty in dismissing the value of a slash.  There are not too many ways to use a knife, though there are a myriad of different motions.  Whether or not a stab or a slash is a better "killer" isn't as important as continuing to train with a knife.  The fact is most knife techniques translate to empty hand or other blunt object movements, and I wouldn't want to limit training to punches only, because they tend  to "hurt" more than any other hand technique, or whatever.  Why limit yourself at all?  Just keep training.


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## Cryozombie

Ya know Ed...

I would have to agree with some of what you said... I would think that certain stabbing techniques would be far more effective IN MOST CASES than a slashing attack... but that is not to say slashing attacks do not have their place.  However I would think slashing a guy in, say, a heavy down coat, or stiff leather one would be pretty ineffective, unless you were armed with something RAZOR sharp, like say, a straight razor.  But I also recently read about a guy who had his carotid (?) artery slashed open by a guy with a box cutter, and he is now 6 feet under. 

So honestly, I think that saying "Only Stabbing" is valid, or "Only Slashing" is valid are both ignorant viewpoints.  Combat is dynamic, not static, and EVERY SINGLE SITUATION is different.  I would have more expectation of stopping an opponent with a stab than a slash, but that doesn't mean I wont slash if the opportunity is there.


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## Bester

How many knife fights have you been in?

How many people have you killed with your special techniques?

Sure, a stab is more lethal...the Romans knew that.

But the majority of injuries caused by an edged weapon are -SLASHES-.

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1341852003


Of course, I'm interested in what your fantasy-world training would say to the statement "Disarms can get you killed"?


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## Bob Hubbard

http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/articles/CT_Edged_Weapons.htm


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## Touch Of Death

Slashing is not an inferior fighting method. Consider flaying your attacker's punching arm lenthwise on the way to his throat, and then pulling the blade through a clavical. He's dead and you never once stabbed him. :asian:


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## lonewolf12563

Explain to me how you are going to sever the clavical artery with out stabbing? ED


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## Baytor

Slashing and stabbing both have their place.  It all depends on the opening you have been given.  You have to be able to adapt to the circumstances.


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## Touch Of Death

Its going to depend on what blade you choose, but lets choose the choose a basic Military anti-personel Knife.
Sean


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## lonewolf12563

Ok...but how are you going to sever the clavical artery. Ed


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## Gary Crawford

If the purpose of a stab is to kill(and should always be),one should twist the knife during exit,making sure the most damage as possible is done.Anytime a stab is used,it should only be done for killing purposes.This is what I teach to my counter-terrorism students.If the purpose is self defense,slashing is best,it's faster and harder to defend against and usualy non-lethal.


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## loki09789

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> If the purpose of a stab is to kill(and should always be),one should twist the knife during exit,making sure the most damage as possible is done.Anytime a stab is used,it should only be done for killing purposes.This is what I teach to my counter-terrorism students.If the purpose is self defense,slashing is best,it's faster and harder to defend against and usualy non-lethal.


From an FMArtists POV a stab/thrust is the same as a punching motion and a slashing motion is the same as a backfist/shuto/hammerfist motion.  The only difference is the tool applied NOT the direction or the delivery system.
That said, is the only worthwhile technique the punch or heel hand strike?  Is a roundhouse kick or a knife hand motion/cat's paw heel hand striking motion a waist of time to practice?  If the side kick proved to be the most powerful kick of the possible choices does that mean I only practice that one?

The point of training, for me as a self defense artist, with and against knives is so that I have a foundation of mechanical skills and the tactical sense to be able to use what ever may come my way - and defend against things that come against me.  

If all I know how to do well with a blade is stab and I am offered the chance to use a thick spined, broad bladed knife more suited to slashing applications by virtue of the weight and engineering of the weapon then I am just as 'up a creek' as if I never handled a firearm before, but it was the best weapon in the moment to stop an attacker.

Learn the difference between a 'desparation slash' and a pressure cut/draw cut/fillet cut and then talk to me about how much slashing is a waste.  I have used knives to butcher and gut game and am a firm believer that a well executed Slash (different from hacking back and forth in the air, hoping to strike a body as if it were a stick strike) can be VERY deadly.

Better still get your hands on 'Surviving Edged weapons' by Paladin press.  The personal accounts, ME pictures may put knives in general into perspective.  Notice the difference in style and movement between Leo Gahe's FMA style and the Inmate "Shank-do" style.  The inmates are training to use improvised weapons that are crude.  They are ONLY designed and engineered for stabbing.

Be careful of statistics too.  Just because the most common strike used (therefore the most recorded 'killing' strike) with an edged weapon is the stab/thrust doesn't mean it is the 'best' just the one that comes most naturally to a bunch of minimally/untrained masses who decide to attack each other.  This tunnel vision perception of statistics is what leads to the myth that owners of red cars will get more tickets than owners of other colors.  If you realize that the highest percentage of car color is red, it only means that if you increase the number of red cars it will directly lead to an increase in red car tickets - then you can keep things in perspective.

Still rather have a stick or a gun myself.


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## Touch Of Death

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> Explain to me how you are going to sever the clavical artery with out stabbing? ED


Give me a quality knife and I can chop through any bone you got; so, to answer your question, I will stad with the edge of the blade.
Sean


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## Bob Hubbard

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> Ok...but how are you going to sever the clavical artery. Ed


To sever the Clavical artery requires a thrust.

You can however sever carotid artery, jugular vein, femeral artery and many other major vessles with a slash.

There is a reason the Romans used a thrust.
There is also a reason why the Samurai used a weapon and developed a style based on the slash.


BTW: anyone have a good map of major blood vessles?  The best I could find was http://www.mythos.com/webmd/Content.aspx?P=CIRCA1&E=40#


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## someguy

A slash can be effective.  A large number of swords show this.  Scimatar,claymore, any really big sword.  Stabing works well aswell.  Rapiars are good exmples.  Better even is an axe and a spear.  Both have a time and a place.
Knives I suppose are differnt as they don't have as much weight behind them.  I'll leave that up to the people who play with them alot to decide.


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## Bob Hubbard

Ed,
The point of both the pistol defense and later on with this silly knife defense is "control the weapon" or "don't control the weapon". The very doctrine you seem to be a proponent of, US Army Combatives clearly advocates *"Control the weapon".* http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-25.150/ch8.htm#sec2

An uncontrolled knife can slash or thrust. Both can kill. The folks on the airplanes on 9/11 were killed by having their throats slashed with box cutters. 

Now daggers, not sharpened screwdrivers, not pencils.

Box Cutters.  A tool which every stockboy is familiar with, and any one of them will verify it ain't a thrusting weapon.

Again, you're ideas seem to lack any real-world credibility.


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## lonewolf12563

The reason why the stewardest was killed with the box cutter is because she just lyed there. No one help her because of fear. It is not proven that she died before the crash into the tower either. All you have is passenger phone calls. Look at Nick Berg. Took a while to cut his head off. And that was with a small sword.
Controlling the knife, have fun, and controlling the gun, pistol rifle are too different animals. Different dynamics.
Touch of death you are living in sword fantasy land you have no clue about knives. Yes Kaith a stab is what severs the clavicle artery.
The reason why the Romans stabbed is because they knew that they could survive a hack, slash. They knew they could kill their adversay with a thrust. This was with a sword! We are talking a bout a small blade. Knives and swords are not the same. They work differently. When  an inmate makes a shank it is usually a stabbing spike. Why, because they know it kills. Slashing does not.
Gary, if you pull a knife especially in anti terroist situations, you better be prepared to kill your adversary. Anything else is rediculous. You actually train special ops people to do defensive cuts? That is a joke. Or are they civilians. Maybe I miss understood your statement. Yes I agree slashing is usually non-lethal. Do you train military or civilians?, just to clarify for me.
Twisting the blade is mainly used to get your knife out if it gets stuck. But yes you can twist the blade for maximum effect if you have controll over your target. And usually that is on the ground. Otherwise you are stabbing and hitting your target until he goes down. Usually you have already taken him down before you kill him anyways. Teaching some anti terror student defensive cuts will get them killed. Dealing with terrorist or any other determined attacker, is very violent, brutal, unlike anything you have seen or experience. I hope you never do. 
Kaith since your only experience with the army is FM 21-150, which if you look is very basic, I can ensure you we do it much better than that. Ed


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## Stick Dummy

:barf:
:barf:
:barf:



  What style did you say you studied?

  Have you ever actually stabbed someone?

  Have you contemplated the preliminary slash being to sever muscle groups, tendons, ligaments, etc. as a "gateway' to secondary targets?

Maybe this one needs to be moved to Horror Stories as well.............


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## Baytor

I thought the Romans used stabbing so they could keep in tight ranks and work more as a compact unit.  If they were to slash, they would have to open their ranks, which would expose them more.  If I remember right, they stayed close togather so they would shield each other.  Also, it let them train less on the stabbing and more on moving togather as a unit.  
I'm not a historian...I will have to double check that.


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## lonewolf12563

When you do your reaserch you will find that when using the Gladius, the Roman solider did not hack at the enemy as this would of made him vunerable to attack on the exposed parts of his body. Instead he was trained to stab at the enemy in a very fast back and forth motion. This was most effective as it meant for a faster rate of attack.
Roman soliders would wait for the enemy to close, smash thier shileds into them , as a weapon, then thrust their gladius into the bodies of the enemy. The sword was thrusted side ways to penetrate the rib cage and the vital organs.
Of couse not every culture fought like this as evedence by the swords they developed. But even the Europeans valued the effectiveness of the thrust as evident by their sword and dagger designs. They knew how to dispatch someone quickly. Why do you think that daggers and stilletto switchblades are illegal and regular knives are not. No politics here. Because they are perfect weapons for what they are ment for. Killing. Defense is the response to an attack. Offense is the attack it self. In a defensive system you are already behind because you are responding to the attackers input. It is very hard to regain the offense when put in a defensive posture. This is where most MA fail. They fail because they are not realistic in their training and approach. Most are sports with rules and some like Philipine knife arts are base on that cultures need to develope a means to protect it's self using the available tools ie Bolo machete ,moro barong ect. Then after being conquered by christianity those skills were changed into sport. The skill you learn in most of these knife arts are based on sword play. The knive and sword are very different in characteristics. The Eurpoeans knew this and developed some of the great daggers ever seen. We even knew this in our own civil war our bayonets were spikes. Why because stabbing kills faster than slashing. Yes I do belive you can use a slash as an entry to a stab, but realiance on this technique is not the best course of action. Remember also most of these knife arts have you start in stances and do footwork, male-female triangle. Again based on sword work. 
Study these arts for their artistic value...but for real life situations you are kidding yourself if you rely on them. The one thing I was taught in the military is the understand how each weapon system I used performed and how the human body works and how you shut it down fast. None of these moves used "defanging the snake". Ed


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## Bester

Let us pause in Mr. Ed's proof of which portion of the horse he is, to examine his credentials. He of course will not reply, as to do so will prove his true fraud nature.



> Itto Ogami Ryu is dedicated to providing world-class Jujutsu instruction, programs and facilities, and to helping our students realize the significant self-defense, self-improvement and physical fitness benefits of Jujutsu.
> 
> As the Samurai of old, the main reason for learning jujutsu was to protect oneself from attack by unarmed or armed assailants. The best defense is a strong offense. In our style you will learn simple, easy to learn techniques that will stop an attacker as quickly as possible. You will also learn many restraint techniques when the situation calls for a more controlled response.
> 
> 
> Sensei Glasheen has been studying Jujutsu since 1980. He currently holds the rank of Menkyo ( teaching license). He served 11 years in the United States Army with the rank of Chief Warrant Officer. He is currently Chief Instructor at Itto Ogami Ryu Jujutsu New York.



Hmm....

Questions...questions....


Ah! ?When you made up the name for your style, why didn't you take the time to get the grammer for the name correct?


Reference: http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=48551&postcount=40

Hmm...paragraph 2 is standard marketing hype....

Ah, #3

"Sensei Glasheen has been studying Jujutsu since 1980."
Who with? What is your lineage?

"He currently holds the rank of Menkyo ( teaching license)."
Who issued it and when?

"He served 11 years in the United States Army with the rank of Chief Warrant Officer."
You were a CWO for 11 years? or reached it after 11 years service?
What grade? (There are 4)
What area os specialization?

11 years?


> Private (E-2) - 6 months
> Private First Class (E-3) - 1 year
> Specialist/Corporal (E-4) - 18 months
> Sergeant (E-5) - 4.2 years
> Staff Sergeant (E-6) - 8.5 years
> Sergeant First Class (E-7) - 13.6 years
> Master Sergeant/First Sergeant (E-8) - 17 years
> Sergeant Major (E-9) - 20.8 years



A CWO minimally has:


> Minimum prerequisites:
> 
> Be a SGT (E5) or above
> Have a minimum of four years operational experience in 75 series MOS
> Be a 75 series MOS BNCOC graduate
> Have 6 semester hours of college level English
> Have 18 months experience supervising 75 series MOS soldiers documented on NCOER
> Have a PMOS of 75B, F, H




References:
http://armedforcescareers.com/insignia_warrantofficers.html
http://leav-www.army.mil/wocc/whatiswo.htm
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/arwarrant/bl420a.htm


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## Stick Dummy

Methinks you need to get a better understanding of the FMA/IMA styles, and stop referring to everything inclusive done by them as "defanging the snake".

  I was at a seminar last year, and this subject was brought up by the guest instructor (A FMA stylist of some international repute), his comment was a disarm was exactly that, to hack (variation of a "slash") the intruding arm off when it was in range. ..........

Next you will be telling us the Chinese Martial arts are "soft" and lack power.

Once again, please answer my above listed questions for some validation of your real world/real time experiences and theorum.


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## Bester

Ed's pretty close on the Roman stuff.

Of course, he totally ignores the entire Japanese sword culture, who focus around the lethal aspects of the SLASH!

But, lets not interupt his fantasy with reality.


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## Flatlander

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> Roman soliders would wait for the enemy to close, smash thier shileds into them , as a weapon, then thrust their gladius into the bodies of the enemy. The sword was thrusted side ways to penetrate the rib cage and the vital organs.
> Ed


I don't usually carry a puncture proof sheild with me in public.



> In a defensive system you are already behind because you are responding to the attackers input. It is very hard to regain the offense when put in a defensive posture. This is where most MA fail


I wouldn't want to eliminate defensive aspects to training.

The only way to score goals in soccer is to kick the ball at the net.  Should we pull the goalie, put another striker out there, and expect to win?  Come on now.  



> Yes I do belive you can use a slash as an entry to a stab, but realiance on this technique is not the best course of action.


Reliance on any ONE technique is never the best course of action.  I don't believe that anyone here has claimed that relying solely on a slash IS the best course of action. Who are you refuting here?


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## Flatlander

Good Post Bester!  Thank you for bringing that to light.  You are probably right, I don't imagine you will get a direct response to any of that.  I'm going to add to your reputation for that one.


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## Bob Hubbard

Bester said:
			
		

> Ed's pretty close on the Roman stuff.
> 
> Of course, he totally ignores the entire Japanese sword culture, who focus around the lethal aspects of the SLASH!
> 
> But, lets not interupt his fantasy with reality.


 Lets see, the Katana, held by many to be the ultimate in sword design, is a slashing weapon.  Arts such as Iaido teach how to kill with 1 cut...yes, 1 cut, not stab.

Now, onto the topic of arteries...
http://www.sirinet.net/~jgjohnso/bloodvessels.html

I see some nice targets in the neck, abdomen, and legs.  All of which are accessible by slashing.  In fact, if I was targeting them, I would slash, as a stab has a higher chance of missing and just puncturing muscle.

Let us also not forget, its hard to fight while holding ones guts in due to the belly shot ya just took.

But, what do I know....I'm just an FMA blue belt.  :rofl:


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## lonewolf12563

I think some Europeans would disagree with you on that one. Ed


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## Cthulhu

Please translate 'Itto Ogami Ryu'.

Cthulhu


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## someguy

Of course swords are a differnt anmal they have more legnth and weight.  Still I think there may be some reason forknives to ave edges.  If slashs weren't worth it then they would have gone by the wayside over the thousands of years.  
There is one way to score a point in kendo with a thrust I'm pretty sure.  Are there any thrusts in Iaido?  
Oh and as t the roman stuff lets also remember the whoel claymore thing in scotland.  Flamberg also plent of none thrusting weapons in Europe.  Rapiars came about but kept an edge and was only for a duel not for war.  As to knives for a fight.  Winning is all that matters.  Slash thrust doesn't matter its all about when its done.


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## Bob Hubbard

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> I think some Europeans would disagree with you on that one. Ed


Sigh...

Iaido, Kenjutsu, Battojutsu, Iaijutsu, etc...all Japanese arts based on slashing.

European arts...hmm....nope, can't think of any.  Though there are some recreation groups that have been digging up info.  SCA, HMA, etc.

As to sword blade types...



> http://members.aol.com/dargolyt/TheForge/katana.htm
> 
> 
> *The Katana*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The katana was the Japanese sword of legendary craftsmanship and rich lore. It was the primary sword weapon of the Japanese feudal knights, the Samurai. The crafting of these weapons was considered an art form; each weapon was meticulously forged, shaped, tempered, and honed. The average katana consisted of 27 different pieces, including the scabbard; each piece was specially designed to fit perfectly with the others. The katana blade ran the length of the weapon and the handles were attached with pegs to the outside of the blades tang (the portion of the blade opposite the tip, normally fitted into the weapon hilt). Unlike swords where the blade is fitted into the hilt, thus allowing the blade to be broken off the handle, the katana, being essentially a single piece of steel, had to be broken literally in half before it was rendered useless. Katanas were single edged with a stunted, sharpened tip for thrusts. While the blades were rarely longer than three feet, the handles were always long enough to allow the Samurai a two handed grip.
> 
> 
> 
> Great rites governed the use, display, and carry of the katana. The Samurai recognized 16 separate attack forms with the katana, from a diagonal slash across the chest to the a horizontal slash across the hips (easiest to most difficult). The katana was always carried with a shorter blade, the wakizashi. Together the pair was called a daisho (Japanese meaning large-small). Samurai carried the daisho through the girdle of their clothing with the weapon edges facing up. Katanas were passed down unmodified through generations in a family but the scabbards (lacquered and enameled wood, usually decorated) were often changed as new styles became popular. Rarely would a Samurai display his katana to anyone except during combat; it was considered unprofessional to fully remove the blade from its scabbard outside of combat.






> *The Gladius*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Gladius was the short sword characteristically used by legionaries of the Roman empire from 50 to 400 AD. Shown at left, it was a double edged blade ideal for both thrusting and slashing.  It is thought to have been modeled on the Spanish sword, _gladius hispaniensis_.





Japanese sword making is still considered an artform today.  Historically, Damascus and Toledo steel swords were also considered top quality.


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## Bob Hubbard

someguy said:
			
		

> Of course swords are a differnt anmal they have more legnth and weight.  Still I think there may be some reason forknives to ave edges.  If slashs weren't worth it then they would have gone by the wayside over the thousands of years.
> There is one way to score a point in kendo with a thrust I'm pretty sure.  Are there any thrusts in Iaido?
> Oh and as t the roman stuff lets also remember the whoel claymore thing in scotland.  Flamberg also plent of none thrusting weapons in Europe.  Rapiars came about but kept an edge and was only for a duel not for war.  As to knives for a fight.  Winning is all that matters.  Slash thrust doesn't matter its all about when its done.


 http://members.aol.com/dargolyt/TheForge/OHEMAIN.HTM has some interesting info, in a basic way, on the types of weapons and their use.


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## lonewolf12563

If you look up Japanees history on Tanto jujutsu you will see they primarily used it in a stabbing motion.
Someguy..yes winning is all that matters..I agree. 
Itto Ogami Ryu is lone (one) wolf school. Although not perfect Japanese this is what I choose. Why?
Because I am a wolf conservationist    http://wolf.org/wolves/
I identify with the lonewolf theme and  it is traditional for a new jujutsu school to have it's own name. How many schools do you know that have their own names?  Besides my last name would suck as so and so martial arts.
This is what I chose. Ogami Itto Ryu does not sound right to me although I have seen it spelled  both ways.
Jujutsu is not a franchise. Except for this whole BJJ thing and a few others. There were many different named ryus in Japan. Each represented a family and there Ideals. My lineage is along the Yama Bushi lineage. But I will not say why or where or whom.  All that matters is the test of what works and what doesn't. Yes I am a Menkyo Kaiden. I earned it. But I wear no belt when I go to work nor carry a sword or this other fantasy ****. All you can do is train with me...and as others have you may be surprised. Not to say I am the zen god of MA. But I do what I do well. That I can prove.
So go ahead search the internet all you what to prove this point or that point. It doesn't mean anything other than you helped me occupy my rainy Monday. Thanks Ed


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## Cthulhu

Wolf in Japanese should be 'ookami'...not ogami.

Cthulhu


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## arnisador

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> I thought the Romans used stabbing so they could keep in tight ranks and work more as a compact unit.


Yes, I think this was a big part of it--and also how it worked with their shields, as was mentioned. They were big on unit tactics, and we're talking about that here. It changes the game.

There's much to be said for the slash. You can use it to get in to stabbing range if desired.

In looking at statistics, ask yourself how many times someone took a slash to the arm, saw the blood, decided discretion was the better part of valor, and fled. No death, maybe no police report--but something happened nonetheless.


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## arnisador

A stab may well give a quicker kill--nut it's riskier to get into stabbing range.

A slash may well be less likely to kill--but if it stops the attack, that's all that matters in self-defense.

I can easily believe a military emphasis on the stab--quicker and more lethal--but the slash has much going for it for self-defense. If I was trying to escape a POW camp and had to take out a sentry before he sounded an alarm, a stab looks good (not that it's teh only option). If three guys are around me trying to get my wallet, quick slashes at each start to sound appealing rather than getting tied up with one.

There's also issues like hand running up the blade, stab stopping on bone, folder collapsing, etc., that are less of an issue with a slash. Certainly, I usually start with slasshes in most cases, possibly stabbing later.

As to iaido: Yes, there are some stabs, but not many compared to the cuts.


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## Cruentus

Stabs can be more lethal then a slash, but they both have their place. When I teach military people, I emphasis more of a stabing strategy. Civilians, a slashing strategy.

But hey, what do I know. Perhaps lonewolf can enlighten me onto how stupid I am and how frikin sweet he is just like he did to practically everyone in the last wonderful discussion that he started.

Errr....why'd I post on this one again (I ask myself)? :idunno:


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## Cryozombie

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> My lineage is along the Yama Bushi lineage.



Hmmm.


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## Cryozombie

arnisador said:
			
		

> As to iaido: Yes, there are some stabs, but not many compared to the cuts.



Not to sidetrack the thread, but I have a question... isnt Iaido the art of drawing and cutting in a single motion? Or do i have my terms mixed up again?

If so... how do you draw and stab?


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## muaythaifreak

The propensity for a stab to kill is dependant upon the location of the penetration.  If one is stabbed in the forearm, chances are it's going to do less damage than would a slash in the same area.  A properly executed slash will ALWAYS produce a larger wound than a stab.  Additionally if the slash is made with a sharp blade and a strong hand, it very likely will penetrate more than deep enough to cause injury to vital organs.  Not all vitals are protected by the ribcage.  The argument that a stab will end the fight more quickly than a slash is purely conjecture.  Perhaps if one were stabbed in the temple or the eye with enough force, but what are the chances of stabbing someone in the eye in the middle of a confrontation?  Not so high I think.  On the other hand there are much larger targets available to a slash attack wich will end a fight very rapidly if not immediately.  i.e. a deep slash to the thigh, even if you don't get an artery or vein, (which you very likely will.)  if you separate enough muscle and tendon, the attacker will not be able to continue his assault nearly as well on one leg.  Also the shoulder, you separate the muscles of the shoulder from their respective tendons, they can no longer move the bones which are being used to attack you.  I would prefer not to have either done to me, but if I had to choose, I'd say I would rather be stabbed in the throat than to be slashed there.  The veins and arteries are not that far below the surface of the skin.  All in all, I believe the slash to be more effective than the stab, but a combination of the two is probably what I would go with in a real world knife fight encounter.


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## arnisador

Most techniques in iaido will start with a quick draw, often going directly into a cut, but then will follow up with another cut(s) or less often a stab. Some techniques start with a half-draw that is used to stop your opponent from drawing _his_ sword! It's more about close-quarters sudden attacks than draw-and-cut per se.

There are many styles of iaido/iaijutsu/battodo/etc., so things can vary by style.


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## MJS

Cthulhu said:
			
		

> Please translate 'Itto Ogami Ryu'.
> 
> Cthulhu




A BS art that the lonepuppy teaches that he thinks is worlds above what everyone else does, when in reality its nothing but a fake..just like Mr. Ed!!

Mike


----------



## shesulsa

I think both thrusting and slashing have their place, depending upon what you need to do and where you need to strike.

Now, the war vets I know who have been in many knife fights, tell me that when stabbed, the body holds on to the knife and it doesn't pull out easily, even when sharp.  This, apparently, is a good thing because it keeps the bleeding down to a minimum and shock from setting in right away.  However, when sliced, shock set in almost immediately and bleeding was profuse.

I have never been in a knife fight, but I have stabbed my hand with a paring knife and sliced my finger open with a sword (small, humble, stupid wounds - nothing compared to knife fighting of course) and I must say that small, tiny sword slice put me on my back in shock when the 2" stab into my hand did not.

I'm sure stabbing a vital organ would have a different impact, though...I think the liver is a wound, the intestines are often fatal, mostly because of secondary infection...heart of course would/could be fatal as well as a lung (again, mostly from secondary infection).  Stomach can usually be repaired.

Interesting thread, guys - let's keep it going!


----------



## Cruentus

Both slashes and stabs can kill, but stabs (especially if executed with precision) will kill more readily then slashes, and more instantly. The guy will need time to bleed out with a slash, but with a stab you can take his life instantly. Slashes can sever nerves and tendons, though, and can stop an attacker just as easily as a stab, depending on the situation. 

They both have their place, just know the strengths and limitations of each.

Here is a link to another forum I came accross with photo's. This guy was sliced up with a knife, but lived. If you noticed he was mostly slashed, and not stabbed (except in the hand). 

Warning, Very graphic photo's: http://strategosforum.com/phpBBx/viewtopic.php?t=4148


----------



## Cthulhu

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> My lineage is along the Yama Bushi lineage. But I will not say why or where or whom.



I think you mean _yamabushi_, which was a mountain priest or some type of Buddhist monk...neither of which are known for any recognized jujutsu ryuha.

And it's fairly evident that you also mean 'CANNOT say why or where or whom'. 

It's a simple matter to provide the name of the ryuha in which you claim menkyo.

Cthulhu


----------



## loki09789

I think the fact that the discussion has taken a tangent into weapons/application because of design the validity of both slash and stab motions have been proven...depends on the tool and the need.

I notice no answer or comment on the credence of practicing arcing vs. thrusting empty hand techniques by the author.  They both have a place and a time.  Since I am currently practicing to be a single self defense artist, the practices of Roman Legionaires w/ the Gladius (which was a back up weapon to the spear - reach out and touch someone) are entertaining but not very relative to what I need since I don't move in tight formation with mass units....

Besides which, what kind of 'slashing' are you referring to when you use the term?  People who study bladed weapons and knives specifically understand that even within 'slash' there are sublteties of the cut that have to be considered.

I would agree that the clearing back and forth or the swiping desperation cuts that people use to keep opponents at a distance or to put the Bad guy on the defense as he or she closes aren't effective by themselves.

The best test would be to give your training partner a live blade - the average kitchen steak knife for example - and if you are so SURE that slashes are a waste of time you will not even defend worry about them as you attempt to respond to the purely slashing attack.  You will ignore them, take the damage and drive through to dispatch your attacker......

After 20 years of martial arts/military training, I will tell you I KNOW I will not ignore such an attack...


----------



## Bester

Mr. Ed will not reply to your questions.  He will instead resort to the last resort of the fraud caught in his own lies and deceits.

Continued misdirection followed by the escape.

Someone should monitor his so called school and inform the local BBB, health department and law enforcement folks to check him out.


----------



## MJS

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> My lineage is along the Yama Bushi lineage. But I will not say why or where or whom.



 Why not????  What do you have to hide???  

Mike


----------



## Cruentus

MJS said:
			
		

> Why not????  What do you have to hide???
> 
> Mike



Everything that would show that his background is not legit.


----------



## arnisador

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I'm sure stabbing a vital organ would have a different impact, though...I think the liver is a wound, the intestines are often fatal, mostly because of secondary infection...heart of course would/could be fatal as well as a lung (again, mostly from secondary infection). Stomach can usually be repaired.


The liver is a dangerous target because it is so heavily vascularized--the odds of causing serious bleeding are high. Anything in the abdomen is a definite danger for infection, but the big danger is hitting the aorta.


----------



## OUMoose

I will echo alot of the sentiment here in that it depends on the situation.  Both slashes and stabs have their uses, many times in the same technique.  Someone had pointed out that muscles will contract on a stab, so you have to twist and cut out.  sooooo, Wouldn't that be a slash too?  From a FMA/Self-defense perspective, I would slash before stab, for the simple fact that stabbing does result in more immediate physical trauma.  In a confrontation, a slash to the inner arm or hands is a good deterrent.  If that doesn't discourage further attacks, a slice above the eyes or taking out something like the achillies' (sp?) tendon will generally end things.  If that doesn't, then something more serious and... invasive.. is needed.

also, to throw my hat in the off-topic ring:
The Gladius was an excellent weapon for stabbing, but look at the weapon from an outsider point of view.  Doesn't it kind of resemble 2 Bolo's back to back, and aren't they great slashers due to the concave edge?  Also, as someone pointed out, many times it was used after getting skewered by a spear.


----------



## shesulsa

"Clueless. And you know all these war vets who were in KNIFE fights? What war was this?"

This comment came to me with a bad rep point.  Honestly...

1.  I don't know a TON of war vets on a first name basis (who does except another one?) but I know a few...

2.  My teacher (army special forces, Korean war), a classmate (navy seal, Vietnam), uncles (pearl harbor vet, d-day vet, army special forces, navy seal, marines, all WWII), in-laws (ex-cia ops, WWII)  co-workers (army special forces, navy seals, intelligence ops, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and Iraq #1)

3.  I think YOU'RE clueless if you think these guys carry knives for no reason other than to shave with, hunt deer with, and trim their bootlaces with.

4.  As for the guy who was sliced up in a family argument and survived...I know those cuts - those are from dull, serrated kitchen knives - if they had been a razor-sharp tanto and the attacker had used a open/close technique with his wrist and forearm on the blade, that guy would have easily been dead as the cuts would have been deeper and arteries damaged (ever bled from an artery?  I have...it's messy)

5.  I have not been in any knife fights - I disarmed one attacker who didn't mean it - hardly a job - so I FREELY ADMIT THAT ANY ASSUMPTION I MAKE CAN ONLY BE CONJECTURE BASED ON THE EXPERIENCES OF THOSE AROUND ME.

That said...Hwarang!  :asian:


----------



## KenpoTess

The originator of this thread is no longer a member of Martial Talk.

~Tess

-MT S. Moderator-


----------



## Cruentus

> As for the guy who was sliced up in a family argument and survived...I know those cuts - those are from dull, serrated kitchen knives - if they had been a razor-sharp tanto and the attacker had used a open/close technique with his wrist and forearm on the blade, that guy would have easily been dead as the cuts would have been deeper and arteries damaged (ever bled from an artery? I have...it's messy)



Well, I'd say that "those cuts" may have had more to do with the attacker not being trained rather then the tool. Statistically, more people die from stab wounds then slash wounds. This is just the fact. I am not by any means asserting that slices are not effective; I am just saying that one should know the strengths and limitations to what they are doing.

Now, I hate to put you on the spot, but so far you've claimed to have had your artery cut, and that you have disarmed someone with a knife. Dare I ask, what circumstances have you been in for these to occur?


----------



## MJS

Well, now that the loneone is gone.. :cheers: ...maybe we can change the direction of this thread ever so slightly.  I think that we've pretty much covered the pros/cons of the stab and slash.  I think it'd be interesting to talk about the best ways to defend each.  We've seen photos of a knife attack and it goes to show that a knife, even in the hands of an untrained person, can have some very serious results.  

One thing that I'd like to ask is that we all try to keep ourselves in check, and keep the flames down to a low burn.  IMO, knife defense is something that should be looked at.

Ok..I'll start.  IMO, when faced with a blade, using something other than your hands to defend yourself would be a better option.  Picking up a stick, chair, ashtray, belt, etc. and using that as an equalizer, so to speak, would give you a better chance of surviving.  Now, I'm not talking about beating him to death with that object, but instead using it to assist in disarming the knife.  Keep in mind the FMA theory of defanging the snake.

Any thoughts??

Mike


----------



## shesulsa

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Well, I'd say that "those cuts" may have had more to do with the attacker not being trained rather then the tool. Statistically, more people die from stab wounds then slash wounds. This is just the fact. I am not by any means asserting that slices are not effective; I am just saying that one should know the strengths and limitations to what they are doing.
> 
> Now, I hate to put you on the spot, but so far you've claimed to have had your artery cut, and that you have disarmed someone with a knife. Dare I ask, what circumstances have you been in for these to occur?


Excellent points, Tulisan :asian: and I agree.  I guess the next question would be when fatal force is necessary and when not and that's a whole other thread for a whole other server.

As for the disarm:  My ex (4th degree kenpo at the time) offered me a butcher knife with which to kill him - offered it to me with open hand...of course he didn't mean it...as I drew nearer to him to remove the knife and take it with me, not hurt him, he closed his fist around the handle and began to pull back - I pancaked his hand, turned it over into a joint lock while peeling the knife from his hand.....as I say, he didn't intend me harm, truly, otherwise I would never have disarmed him.  Childsplay, really - it doesn't really count, and I know that.

As for the bleeding artery:  a glass cake cover broke on the counter near my arm and one large piece of glass slashed deeply into my wrist to the bone, cutting the artery open in a diagonal direction.  It bled profusely, I lost consciousness from shock, vomited...and the cut was about three inches across.  Now, I've been able to stave off shock before, but doc said it takes a cut of no more than 3 centimeters deep to induce shock - and that usually is about how thick the skin is.

Look, sir, I am just a baby at this and have been able to keep most potential fights to manageable level and I truly can only rely on the experiences of others when it comes to being cut in hand-to-hand combat and I humbly acknowledge this publicly.  I care much for my vet friends and family who have seen tight-in knife action and rely heavily upon what they say - thrusting is much more fatal, to be assured...but slicing does have its affect.

Respectfully,  She-Sulsa


----------



## Cruentus

Thanks for your response, Shesulsa.

Your cut sounded nasty. In regards to your Ex...glad to hear that he is your ex! Not so sure how wise it was to tell you to take a live butcher knife from his hand. I'm glad you had it under control, but still, accidents can happened.

 :asian:


----------



## Cruentus

MJS said:
			
		

> Well, now that the loneone is gone.. :cheers: ...maybe we can change the direction of this thread ever so slightly.  I think that we've pretty much covered the pros/cons of the stab and slash.  I think it'd be interesting to talk about the best ways to defend each.  We've seen photos of a knife attack and it goes to show that a knife, even in the hands of an untrained person, can have some very serious results.
> 
> One thing that I'd like to ask is that we all try to keep ourselves in check, and keep the flames down to a low burn.  IMO, knife defense is something that should be looked at.
> 
> Ok..I'll start.  IMO, when faced with a blade, using something other than your hands to defend yourself would be a better option.  Picking up a stick, chair, ashtray, belt, etc. and using that as an equalizer, so to speak, would give you a better chance of surviving.  Now, I'm not talking about beating him to death with that object, but instead using it to assist in disarming the knife.  Keep in mind the FMA theory of defanging the snake.
> 
> Any thoughts??
> 
> Mike



I've posted this before, but here are my steps to knife defense:

#1. Run. By far the best option, and prefered if you are able too. You have the best chance of survival if you can run.

#2. Draw your weapon or pick something up. Aim to disable your attacker from using his weapon, shield from his weapon attack, or buy time for option #1.

#2. Do something right away that will disable the knife. An immediate disarm of the knife, an immediate interception and control of the knife hand, or an immediate attack resulting in the attacker being completely immobilized would be an example. The problem with this is you can't screw this up at all; if you do, your chances of being cut to pieces rise dramatically. Furthermore, this requires a committed attack; the less committed and telegraphed, the less likely your chances of pulling this off. And finally, to do this option requires an extreme amount of proficiency on your part.

The biggest problem with this is that no matter how much you have trained, a sharp blade will always cut your flesh on contact, but your technique will not always work on contact. He has a sure thing in his hand, where as your technique is neer a sure thing. This is how the odds are always against you, no matter how trained you are.

#3. Dodge and evade until you can run or grab something to aid you in your defense. This is preferable if you are not trained well, and you can't run. It is also your only option if #2 fails (and you can't run). You can always try #2 again, but remember that your chances of being cut are greater with each failed attempt, and they weren't in your favor to begin with. Problem with this is that once again, the longer your in the situation, the greater your chances of being cut. Furthermore, he can close on you faster then you can retreat just like he can win a running race against you if you run backwards while he runs forwards. Also, action is faster then reaction. Another disadvantage is that if you are able to pick something up, chances are it won't be lethal enough to stop him, thus prolonging the incident and greatening your odds of being cut.

This solution is extremely problamatic, but must be used if it is all that is available to you.

#4 Spaz out, rush in on him, and barade him with attacks while you are trying to control his knife or subdue him. This isn't quite the same as #2. #2 means your first move immediately subdues his ability to cut you; This is more of a rush where you are trying to overwhelm him with attacks. If you are trained, this may be a better option for you then #3, but this one is even more problamatic then the first three options. Even if you are trained well, you have put yourself in a spot where you will either overcome your attacker, or die trying, period. With #2 your attacker is subdued, with #3 you are at least buying yourself time for an escape, or for an object in your hand that will put the odds in your favor. By rushing in with every technique you know to stop him, you have no chance of surviving if you are not successful. Even if you are successful, you will most likely take serious wounds in the process. 

This is not recomended, and definatily not as a 1st choice. If you try to run and are unsucessful, you can try options 2-4. If you try option #2, you may be able to try another option if your not dead. If you try #3, you may be able to survive with only non fatal cuts as you buy yourself time to run or subdue. With this option, option 4, failure assures your death. Retreating to another option is not really possible with this choice. 

#5. Stand there and let your attacker kill you. This is an option, but it is not a good choice for anyone.

 :asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons

shesulsa said:
			
		

> "Clueless. And you know all these war vets who were in KNIFE fights? What war was this?"
> 
> This comment came to me with a bad rep point.  Honestly...



She-Sulsa,

If the point was green it was positive.

If the point was grey it was positive and the person giving it does not have enough points themself to cause a change to you. These are neutral.

If the point was red then yes it was negative.

I know others have had this issue before, so I mention it only for clarification if needed.

 :asian:


----------



## shesulsa

Tulisan:asian: :

At the time of the knife incident I had never even had training on joint locks at all - interesting instinctive response, given that I don't think most joint locks will really work against knives.  As for the cut - it was interesting, it took me aback immediately, I dropped whatever it was I had in my hand, I immediately began to perspire, pant...not long after, I was looking up at the ceiling wondering how I got there.  Small, deep slashing cut...but it certainly affected me.

Mr. Parsons:asian: :

Thank you for the clarification - it was red.  But that's okay, I think I know who it came from (wink).

Eternally learning.....


----------



## OUMoose

I think that knife defenses and knife disarms are 2 completely different animals.  A former instructor once told me "don't look for a disarm, but if it presents itself to you, don't ignore it."  Those are pretty wise words.  If you hunt for a disarm, attempting to "Defang the snake" as people love to say, you're going to get cut.  If in the course of combat an opening appears to you and your instincts say do it, do it!

My guide to knife defense:
Technique #0:  Talk your way out!  but since everyone knows how to talk, lets move on.

Technique #1:  The "Nike" technique - While keeping your awareness on your attacker, take 5 steps backwards.  In those 5 steps, rotate your torso and legs approximately 180 degrees, keeping lightly on the balls of your feet.  When rotation is complete, firmly plant your lead leg, extend your lead arm and back leg forward in a vigorous motion, causing you to move away at an accelertated pace.  Repeat until the attacker is no longer in sight. 

Technique #2:  "Smokescreening" - whatever small object available to you, pick it up.  Dirt, change, a piece of wood, some garbage, etc, all make handy tools.  Using an underhand (or sidearm if you feel more comfortable), project those loose objects into the face/eyes of the attacker.  I would refrain from using an overhand throw since it takes a bit more time to ready, and telegraphs your intent.  Then, refer to technique #1.

If you get to this point and the aggressor is still advancing, the only thing going to help you is actual training, so keep your arms in, tuck your chin, and hope the aggressor doesn't know what he/she is doing!


----------



## Rich Parsons

OUMoose said:
			
		

> I think that knife defenses and knife disarms are 2 completely different animals.  A former instructor once told me "don't look for a disarm, but if it presents itself to you, don't ignore it."  Those are pretty wise words.  If you hunt for a disarm, attempting to "Defang the snake" as people love to say, you're going to get cut.  If in the course of combat an opening appears to you and your instincts say do it, do it!
> 
> My guide to knife defense:
> Technique #0:  Talk your way out!  but since everyone knows how to talk, lets move on.
> 
> Technique #1:  The "Nike" technique - While keeping your awareness on your attacker, take 5 steps backwards.  In those 5 steps, rotate your torso and legs approximately 180 degrees, keeping lightly on the balls of your feet.  When rotation is complete, firmly plant your lead leg, extend your lead arm and back leg forward in a vigorous motion, causing you to move away at an accelertated pace.  Repeat until the attacker is no longer in sight.
> 
> Technique #2:  "Smokescreening" - whatever small object available to you, pick it up.  Dirt, change, a piece of wood, some garbage, etc, all make handy tools.  Using an underhand (or sidearm if you feel more comfortable), project those loose objects into the face/eyes of the attacker.  Then, refer to technique #1.
> 
> If you get to this point and the aggressor is still advancing, the only thing going to help you is actual training, so keep your arms in, tuck your chin, and hope the aggressor doesn't know what he/she is doing!



I agree with those wise words 

As to item #0. Some can talk better than others.  Hey Paul.

#1, this is really good. I am being 100% serious here. He even mentions within sight. This means keeping aware of your opponent. :asian:

#2, This works for anything you find. Including a can of tuna fish.  I know that is what I found.


----------



## Cruentus

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I agree with those wise words
> 
> As to item #0. Some can talk better than others.  Hey Paul.
> 
> #1, this is really good. I am being 100% serious here. He even mentions within sight. This means keeping aware of your opponent. :asian:
> 
> #2, This works for anything you find. Including a can of tuna fish.  I know that is what I found.



Paul and Rich's bar-fightin' strategy. Paul opens his big mouth and draws all the attention to himself, while Rich clubs them over the head with a can of tunafish.

 :boing2:


----------



## someguy

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Paul and Rich's bar-fightin' strategy. Paul opens his big mouth and draws all the attention to himself, while Rich clubs them over the head with a can of tunafish.
> :boing2:


Uh huh gotcha.  I'll have to try this one if I'm ever in a bar fight.
-#1 Don't be in a position for a knife fight.
_Technique #0: Talk your way out! but since everyone knows how to talk, lets move on.
_  Also give up wallet or purse if needed.


----------



## OULobo

Wow, I guess now that I have finally read this thread after avoiding it all day I should chime in, so pardon me if I throw in some dated comments and ramble a bit.  

First the Roman stuff, sorry Kaith I'm no expert, but if my memory isn't failing me, that was a horrible picture of a gladius. I'm sure it was because it was the best you could find on short notice. If I remember correctly, the blade should be straight without any taper until the last couple inches of the blade. Didn't the Romans use the short stabbing spear, pilum or hasta, as the standard anyway. Given, it was usually thrown, but often used in the "turtle" or phalanx maneuver to approach and gain access to the enemy. 

Next to the switchblade comment (I don't expect much of an answer to this one, since he's gone, but, ehh). The switchblade was cheap steel crap, still is. It was a horrible slasher, had a tendancy to close on the users hand, and would bend or break if it struck leather. Why do you think black leather biker jackets became cool with gangs, because they were armour against switchblades. The outlawing of switchblades was only political. The gangs liked them because they were new, concealable, flashy and initially intimidating. Many Filipinos continued carrying balisongs because they were stronger, just as flashy and just as concealable. (PS most research points to the balisong not originating in the PIs [separate thread]).

On to the FMA descriptions as a sword based art. Some are, but many were influenced by the outlawing of swords (as stated). This means that they switched to sticks, but those don't kill as easily and they are hard to hide from occupiers. Solution: knives, fairly concealable (compared to a sword and stick) and very deadly, the Indonesians followed the same path. The FMAs then evolved into using the knife, not necessarily as a very short version of sword, but as a different weapon altogether with different tactics (ala the thread in the FMA forum about varying style from stick to sword). 

This brings us to the next issue. It is just as impossible, in my opinion, to compare stab and slash as to do the whole "which art is better?" thing. No art can be validly argued as perfectly effective or superior if you take all the things that were in it's environment that made it valid away. They evolved that way for logical reasons. Rapiers are light, long-ranged peircers because they were legally carried dueling blades for unarmored opponents, add other examples as you will (separate thread). That is not to say that some evolved traits wouldn't match in other environments only that they won't necessarily be the best choice. NHB styles are good if you are in a cage with no weapons, no armor, decent knuckle protectors and plenty of time (an art evolved to it's environment, a regulated cage), but if you put it in the woods against a guy with a katana or a broad sword, it doesn't work as well. 

Next the semantics of slash. I won't get too picky, but slash as it has been used here already, could be a draw cut, a hack or a true slash. The effectiveness of the blade will depend on the attack type, and usually that depends on the environment (the katana is a great draw cutter, but only a mediocre hacker). 

and finally, to touch on the pros/cons subject, 

stab pros:
infection
organ failure
compressed internal bleeding (sucking chest wounds)
sneaky unnoticed shots possible
stabbing weapons are easily improvised (pencils, screwdrivers, ect)
easily repeatable attacks (rapid succession stabs)
generally harder to defend against
hard for doctors to treat (in comparison)

stab cons:
little visible damage (less initial shock)
sometimes hard to retain weapon
less than effective against non-vital targets
closer range for effective targeting

slash pros:
blood visible to cause shock
everything is a viable target
viceral cavity collapse from internal pressure. . .
          . . .lets opponents innerds get in the way
no weapon retention issues against bone
severing tendons/ligaments can cause muscle failure
generally allows for survivability (pro?)

slash cons:
harder to get a fast kill shot
bleeding someone out takes time
weapon needs to have a good edge
some clothing can act as armor
causes heavy scarring (con?)

ughhhhh. . . .did I leave anything out?


----------



## Bob Hubbard

OULobo said:
			
		

> First the Roman stuff, sorry Kaith I'm no expert, but if my memory isn't failing me, that was a horrible picture of a gladius. I'm sure it was because it was the best you could find on short notice. If I remember correctly, the blade should be straight without any taper until the last couple inches of the blade. Didn't the Romans use the short stabbing spear, pilum or hasta, as the standard anyway. Given, it was usually thrown, but often used in the "turtle" or phalanx maneuver to approach and gain access to the enemy.


There were several different patters of blade. The one pictured is from the site I got the text from and is I believe a Mainz (sp) type.  I'll be putting something on Roman weapons up in the swords forum shortly. The blade you describe is a Pompei style.


----------



## MJS

Tulisan said:
			
		

> I've posted this before, but here are my steps to knife defense:
> 
> #1. Run. By far the best option, and prefered if you are able too. You have the best chance of survival if you can run.
> 
> #2. Draw your weapon or pick something up. Aim to disable your attacker from using his weapon, shield from his weapon attack, or buy time for option #1.
> 
> #2. Do something right away that will disable the knife. An immediate disarm of the knife, an immediate interception and control of the knife hand, or an immediate attack resulting in the attacker being completely immobilized would be an example. The problem with this is you can't screw this up at all; if you do, your chances of being cut to pieces rise dramatically. Furthermore, this requires a committed attack; the less committed and telegraphed, the less likely your chances of pulling this off. And finally, to do this option requires an extreme amount of proficiency on your part.
> 
> The biggest problem with this is that no matter how much you have trained, a sharp blade will always cut your flesh on contact, but your technique will not always work on contact. He has a sure thing in his hand, where as your technique is neer a sure thing. This is how the odds are always against you, no matter how trained you are.
> 
> #3. Dodge and evade until you can run or grab something to aid you in your defense. This is preferable if you are not trained well, and you can't run. It is also your only option if #2 fails (and you can't run). You can always try #2 again, but remember that your chances of being cut are greater with each failed attempt, and they weren't in your favor to begin with. Problem with this is that once again, the longer your in the situation, the greater your chances of being cut. Furthermore, he can close on you faster then you can retreat just like he can win a running race against you if you run backwards while he runs forwards. Also, action is faster then reaction. Another disadvantage is that if you are able to pick something up, chances are it won't be lethal enough to stop him, thus prolonging the incident and greatening your odds of being cut.
> 
> This solution is extremely problamatic, but must be used if it is all that is available to you.
> 
> #4 Spaz out, rush in on him, and barade him with attacks while you are trying to control his knife or subdue him. This isn't quite the same as #2. #2 means your first move immediately subdues his ability to cut you; This is more of a rush where you are trying to overwhelm him with attacks. If you are trained, this may be a better option for you then #3, but this one is even more problamatic then the first three options. Even if you are trained well, you have put yourself in a spot where you will either overcome your attacker, or die trying, period. With #2 your attacker is subdued, with #3 you are at least buying yourself time for an escape, or for an object in your hand that will put the odds in your favor. By rushing in with every technique you know to stop him, you have no chance of surviving if you are not successful. Even if you are successful, you will most likely take serious wounds in the process.
> 
> This is not recomended, and definatily not as a 1st choice. If you try to run and are unsucessful, you can try options 2-4. If you try option #2, you may be able to try another option if your not dead. If you try #3, you may be able to survive with only non fatal cuts as you buy yourself time to run or subdue. With this option, option 4, failure assures your death. Retreating to another option is not really possible with this choice.
> 
> #5. Stand there and let your attacker kill you. This is an option, but it is not a good choice for anyone.
> 
> :asian:



Paul-  First off, I'd like to thank everyone for keeping the thread going with the great replies that we've had so far!   :asian:   Yes, you've definately given some good advice.  For the first few pages of this thread, it seemed like all we did over and over and over was discuss what was better, the stab or slash, and IMO, it was really going nowhere!!!  Thats the main reason why I attempted to change the direction just a little.  

Great adivce!!

Mike


----------



## MJS

OUMoose said:
			
		

> I think that knife defenses and knife disarms are 2 completely different animals.  A former instructor once told me "don't look for a disarm, but if it presents itself to you, don't ignore it."  Those are pretty wise words.  If you hunt for a disarm, attempting to "Defang the snake" as people love to say, you're going to get cut.  If in the course of combat an opening appears to you and your instincts say do it, do it!



As for the defanging part...I guess where I was going with that was rather than attempt an empty hand disarm, which puts you in more contact with the knife, use something to your advantage to attack that weapon hand.  For example, taking the FMA approach, using something such as the stick to hit the knife hand, hopefully causing him to drop the blade.  

My guide to knife defense:


> Technique #0:  Talk your way out!  but since everyone knows how to talk, lets move on.



True.  Then again, if someone was coming at me with a blade, I dont know how much talking I'd be doing.



> Technique #1:  The "Nike" technique - While keeping your awareness on your attacker, take 5 steps backwards.  In those 5 steps, rotate your torso and legs approximately 180 degrees, keeping lightly on the balls of your feet.  When rotation is complete, firmly plant your lead leg, extend your lead arm and back leg forward in a vigorous motion, causing you to move away at an accelertated pace.  Repeat until the attacker is no longer in sight.



Definately the first thing that is coming to my mind!!! 



> Technique #2:  "Smokescreening" - whatever small object available to you, pick it up.  Dirt, change, a piece of wood, some garbage, etc, all make handy tools.  Using an underhand (or sidearm if you feel more comfortable), project those loose objects into the face/eyes of the attacker.  I would refrain from using an overhand throw since it takes a bit more time to ready, and telegraphs your intent.  Then, refer to technique #1.



Good examples of the equalizers that I'm always talking about.



> If you get to this point and the aggressor is still advancing, the only thing going to help you is actual training, so keep your arms in, tuck your chin, and hope the aggressor doesn't know what he/she is doing!



Agreed!!  Making sure you're keeping your training alive is gonna help.  Using something like a marker, or applying something like lipstick to the edges of your traiining knife will help to show your 'cuts'

Mike


----------



## OULobo

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> There were several different patters of blade. The one pictured is from the site I got the text from and is I believe a Mainz (sp) type.  I'll be putting something on Roman weapons up in the swords forum shortly. The blade you describe is a Pompei style.



Thanks for the clarification, it just seems that the first example was a little exaggerated.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

OULobo said:
			
		

> Thanks for the clarification, it just seems that the first example was a little exaggerated.


 I've got a replica...its an interesting design, IMO.


----------



## loki09789

There is nothing in the penal code that Requires a victim to use less lethal responses first to a lethal attack.  There is generally a philosophy of 'duty to retreat' as long as it doesn't put you in further danger.

If there is time and space, get out of dodge.  Other than that, if the attacker is using a deadly weapon (in this case a knife), and demonstrating the reasonable (get to know your local courts for how they specify reasonable) intent to kill you (attacks you, verbally threatens, refuses to let you leave...) then you use the appropriate level of force to stop  the attack - up to and including deadly force.

IMO, screw trying to disarm the knife.  I might bang on his hand with a stick or improvised weapon to 'disarm' him before he can close with me, but I am not going to focus on a disarm during the real deal.  Guiding, sticking, controlling the weapon so I know where it is as I do my thing, but disarms are not something I am focused on, stopping him from hurting me is.


----------



## MJS

loki09789 said:
			
		

> There is nothing in the penal code that Requires a victim to use less lethal responses first to a lethal attack.  There is generally a philosophy of 'duty to retreat' as long as it doesn't put you in further danger.
> 
> If there is time and space, get out of dodge.  Other than that, if the attacker is using a deadly weapon (in this case a knife), and demonstrating the reasonable (get to know your local courts for how they specify reasonable) intent to kill you (attacks you, verbally threatens, refuses to let you leave...) then you use the appropriate level of force to stop  the attack - up to and including deadly force.
> 
> IMO, screw trying to disarm the knife.  I might bang on his hand with a stick or improvised weapon to 'disarm' him before he can close with me, but I am not going to focus on a disarm during the real deal.  Guiding, sticking, controlling the weapon so I know where it is as I do my thing, but disarms are not something I am focused on, stopping him from hurting me is.



Good points Paul.  Question for you.  I know we've had this discussion before, but I seem to have forgotten.  I recall that we were talking about the levels of force, including deadly.  I remember you and I went back and forth over the use of that.  Isnt it going to be frowned upon in the courts??  I may be wrong here, but I've talked about deadly force in a deadly attack and it seemed that we were not seeing eye to eye on some things.  Can you refesh me on that??

Not trying to re-open the can of worms, but just asking a question!

Mike


----------



## Cruentus

MJS said:
			
		

> Good points Paul.  Question for you.  I know we've had this discussion before, but I seem to have forgotten.  I recall that we were talking about the levels of force, including deadly.  I remember you and I went back and forth over the use of that.  Isnt it going to be frowned upon in the courts??  I may be wrong here, but I've talked about deadly force in a deadly attack and it seemed that we were not seeing eye to eye on some things.  Can you refesh me on that??
> 
> Not trying to re-open the can of worms, but just asking a question!
> 
> Mike



Different Paul answering here, but hey...you said Paul!  :boing2: 

Seriously, pulling a knife is considered deadly force, regardless of wounds. If Deadly force is justified, then technically in the penal system there is nothing saying that you can't kill the guy. That is basic law 101, but there are several factors to consider in application of the law.

For one, if you are apprehended by the police, you will have to defend yourself in court, regardless of what took place. The odds are not in your favor if you a. "won," or came out less harmed then your attacker, and b. if you were carrying a knife in the first place. Keep this in mind. Now, consider also that you will have an easier time defending an assult charge over a murder charge. In either case, you need to prove that deadly force was justified, but regardless, a murder charge is far more serious then something else. It is not in your best interest to kill the guy. Another thing to consider; even though the penal system technically doesn't dictate how to use your "deadly force" if it justifiably, it will be far easier for you to defend yourself if your entry wounds demonstrate that your intent was to escape, keep him away, defend yourself, and NOT to kill him. There are plenty of other factors to consider, but these are just a few to think about.

So, the bottom line is that if you successfully deploy your 3 and a half inch folder with a lovely half serraded edge that your not carrying for utility purposes other then defense (which will look like a tool of death in the eyes of a jury), close the gap skillfully, and excute a wonderful assasination-like stab that you practice in your knife tactics class, and kill the guy, then you have bought yourself some jail time. Doesn't matter whether it was justifyable or not. This is my opinion on the subject, anyways.

So, since we are talking about slashes vs. stabbing, this is where your slashes (especially your non-lethal-looking folder that you should be carrying for utility) as a civilian trying to defend yourself comes in handy. If you are trying to get away, slashes to the limbs as your attacker trys to close on you is a good defense, and it will show a Jury that you indeed were not trying to murder anyone.

Just a few thoughts.


----------



## MJS

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Different Paul answering here, but hey...you said Paul!  :boing2:
> 
> Seriously, pulling a knife is considered deadly force, regardless of wounds. If Deadly force is justified, then technically in the penal system there is nothing saying that you can't kill the guy. That is basic law 101, but there are several factors to consider in application of the law.
> 
> For one, if you are apprehended by the police, you will have to defend yourself in court, regardless of what took place. The odds are not in your favor if you a. "won," or came out less harmed then your attacker, and b. if you were carrying a knife in the first place. Keep this in mind. Now, consider also that you will have an easier time defending an assult charge over a murder charge. In either case, you need to prove that deadly force was justified, but regardless, a murder charge is far more serious then something else. It is not in your best interest to kill the guy. Another thing to consider; even though the penal system technically doesn't dictate how to use your "deadly force" if it justifiably, it will be far easier for you to defend yourself if your entry wounds demonstrate that your intent was to escape, keep him away, defend yourself, and NOT to kill him. There are plenty of other factors to consider, but these are just a few to think about.
> 
> So, the bottom line is that if you successfully deploy your 3 and a half inch folder with a lovely half serraded edge that your not carrying for utility purposes other then defense (which will look like a tool of death in the eyes of a jury), close the gap skillfully, and excute a wonderful assasination-like stab that you practice in your knife tactics class, and kill the guy, then you have bought yourself some jail time. Doesn't matter whether it was justifyable or not. This is my opinion on the subject, anyways.
> 
> So, since we are talking about slashes vs. stabbing, this is where your slashes (especially your non-lethal-looking folder that you should be carrying for utility) as a civilian trying to defend yourself comes in handy. If you are trying to get away, slashes to the limbs as your attacker trys to close on you is a good defense, and it will show a Jury that you indeed were not trying to murder anyone.
> 
> Just a few thoughts.



Paul-- Thank you for the reply.  As always, you bring up excellent points!!  As for the slashing vs stabbing.....I couldnt agree with you more.   :asian: 

Thanks again,

Mike


----------



## loki09789

MJS said:
			
		

> Good points Paul. Question for you. I know we've had this discussion before, but I seem to have forgotten. I recall that we were talking about the levels of force, including deadly. I remember you and I went back and forth over the use of that. Isnt it going to be frowned upon in the courts?? I may be wrong here, but I've talked about deadly force in a deadly attack and it seemed that we were not seeing eye to eye on some things. Can you refesh me on that??
> 
> Not trying to re-open the can of worms, but just asking a question!
> 
> Mike


The disconnect had more to do with how you verbally justify your actions during the 3rd battle arena phase (legal system) in my little construct.  

If you say that 'you were only matching his killing force with your killing force' it can bite you later because someone will jump on that phrasing of 'killing force' and try to make you look like a bad guy instead of a defender.  

Remember that self defense is a Justification for the use of force - which means that you have to present an air tight demonstration (with consistency of wording, explanation and deed) that you were always and only motivated by a desire to stop the threat and escape.  ANY hint that you were enraged, intended to kill or anything else can be used against you in a court of law (as stated in the Miranda stuff).

Back to the story at hand....

When I am reading the description of some of the responses here (including yours) about 'how I would defend...' I am NOT seeing force continuums being described, but procedures.  

The difference is that you have to start at step x and follow all the steps to get to the end in a procedure.  

With a continuum, if the situation is such that you start at point x, you don't have to follow any steps in order but can jump in and out as the situation and your assessment of it change.

If you have a procedure of:
1.verbal
2.control
3.disarm
4.less than lethal
5.lethal

then you, based on the fact that procedures are instructional steps that have to be take in sequence, are training yourself to 'stick to the plan' even if the law or the situation isn't requiring it of you, and even if sticking to the plan will put you in further danger because the situation is not moving in a logical procedural process.  Following a step procedure may put you in further danger, which is NOT what penal laws are designed to do.  Penal laws dealing with force are designed to make sure that actions taken are socially/civically responsible and that actions that are not are punished.

If you have a continuum of 
verbal ---- control ---- disarm --- less than lethal --- lethal (imagine these points  in a big circle instead of a straight line)

There is a general flow that you try to work with, but the situation will dictate what point you start at and where you go to next.  It is more responsive and less restrictive.

the continuum/procedural criteria I have laid out are just for discussion example.  This isn't my process exactly it was just what came to mind as I was typing.


----------



## MJS

Paul--Thanks again for the clarification!!! :asian: 

Good points and I'm understanding what you're saying....a little slow, but I'm getting it!! :boing2: 

Mike


----------



## loki09789

MJS said:
			
		

> Paul--Thanks again for the clarification!!! :asian:
> 
> Good points and I'm understanding what you're saying....a little slow, but I'm getting it!! :boing2:
> 
> Mike


I uzta not bee aibl to spl englisch teecha, now i are juan! 

I am not the brightest bulb in the pack at times either, welcome to the club.


----------



## Flatlander

OULobo said:
			
		

> slash pros:
> blood visible to cause shock
> everything is a viable target
> viceral cavity collapse from internal pressure. . .
> . . .lets opponents innerds get in the way
> no weapon retention issues against bone
> severing tendons/ligaments can cause muscle failure
> generally allows for survivability (pro?)
> 
> 
> ughhhhh. . . .did I leave anything out?


All I would add to this list is the capability for attack continuity, i.e; that the blade need not be removed from the target.  Kind of like "sticky knife" (I just made that up), continuing along whatever cutting pattern(s) that work.


----------



## MJS

flatlander said:
			
		

> All I would add to this list is the capability for attack continuity, i.e; that the blade need not be removed from the target.  Kind of like "sticky knife" (I just made that up), continuing along whatever cutting pattern(s) that work.



I agree.  That was the point I was trying to get at when I was talking about the upward block defense against a knife.  VERY poor!  Once that contact is made, the knifer is going to continue his slash right down the persons arm and then possibly his body.  Here you have contact made, and there is nothing stopping the knife!

Mike


----------



## loki09789

flatlander said:
			
		

> All I would add to this list is the capability for attack continuity, i.e; that the blade need not be removed from the target. Kind of like "sticky knife" (I just made that up), continuing along whatever cutting pattern(s) that work.


Contour cutting, pressure cutting and ripping thrusts come to mind for me with the 'sticky knife' idea.  I do most/all of the cooking in my house.  That combined with fishing/hunting and cleaning/butchering game really is good eye opener to the various ways that knives can damage flesh.  I think that the hunter/warrior link is a good one to emphasis as well because that is were most of our 'warrior/martial' skills were really developed first and later were translated and isolated to strictly combat/defense use.  One of the interesting things about earlier warrior cultures that isn't so common now was the emphasis on self reliance skills (woodscraft, fishing, hunting, food prep, clothing making/mending...).  They, at one time were what made up a 'complete' fighter.  As hobbiests and enthusiasts of martial arts, it is sometimes forgetten that martial skill (punching,weapons....) is only an aspect of the whole fighter training.


----------



## MJS

While we are on the subject of knife defense, I thought I'd post this for a little comedy relief!!!  The below is a quote from the lonepuppy.  It was taken from another forum regarding a knife defense.  The funny part, is that this is exactly what he was trying to pass off with that 'wonderful'  gun disarm.




> Any second rate martial artist knows that if you try to do it against someone who resits, fat chance you will get the armbar. Plus while you are concentrated on the armbar you expose yourself to punches from the perps free hand.



Gee, didnt we mention this at some point, only to be met with comments telling us we didnt know what we were talking about.  How he contradicts himself!!! :boing2: 

Mike


----------



## Gaston

Two areas that are being neglected in this discussion of stab vs. slash are tendons and nerves, which will produce instant results.  Many street drugs can produce assailants with inhuman responses.  These assailants could temporarily shrug off lethal stabs to vital organs, including the heart.  All major tendons of the limbs lie very close to the surface of the body.  I know you may be thinking a severed tendon will not dispatch an opponent. However, consider the loss of say your biceps tendon, which would prevent you from flexing your elbow, regardless if you feel it or not.  Another prime target could be the brachial plexus (just under the armpit) which would sever the nervous and arterial conduits to the entire arm.  With just one slash the attacker would loose the use of his entire arm instantly. Without medical aid they would also bleed out in under a minute.  The immediate immobility of ones arm could prove a difficult injury to continue with.  In dealing with medicated or fatally determined individuals you can not wait for lack of blood to the brain to render them neutral.  It is far faster to target the mechanical components of the anatomy.  If nerves are not connected to the muscles, or the muscle is not attached to the bone the limbs will cease to function period. Yes, I know that there are certain stabs that will sever these mechanical components.  This would require an extremely accurate thrust; and once the point entered the body   it would become an internal slash would it not? 
Any comments?   :enguard:


----------



## MJS

Gaston said:
			
		

> Two areas that are being neglected in this discussion of stab vs. slash are tendons and nerves, which will produce instant results.  Many street drugs can produce assailants with inhuman responses.  These assailants could temporarily shrug off lethal stabs to vital organs, including the heart.  All major tendons of the limbs lie very close to the surface of the body.  I know you may be thinking a severed tendon will not dispatch an opponent. However, consider the loss of say your biceps tendon, which would prevent you from flexing your elbow, regardless if you feel it or not.  Another prime target could be the brachial plexus (just under the armpit) which would sever the nervous and arterial conduits to the entire arm.  With just one slash the attacker would loose the use of his entire arm instantly. Without medical aid they would also bleed out in under a minute.  The immediate immobility of ones arm could prove a difficult injury to continue with.  In dealing with medicated or fatally determined individuals you can not wait for lack of blood to the brain to render them neutral.  It is far faster to target the mechanical components of the anatomy.  If nerves are not connected to the muscles, or the muscle is not attached to the bone the limbs will cease to function period. Yes, I know that there are certain stabs that will sever these mechanical components.  This would require an extremely accurate thrust; and once the point entered the body   it would become an internal slash would it not?
> Any comments?   :enguard:



First off, I'd like to thank you for your reply! :asian:   You brought up many good points.  The only other thing that I'd like to add, is that I was trying to focus this thread off of the slash/stab debate, due to the fact that its already been a  :deadhorse for the last 4 pages.  I think that we all know that both the slash and stab have their respective place and that both can be deadly.  I'd like to focus now on the best defenses for said attacks.  I also have to say that you brought up a good point regarding the attacker being under the influence of a drug.  I agree that it can play a part in his reaction to whatever it is that you're doing to defend yourself.

Mike


----------



## loki09789

Gaston said:
			
		

> Two areas that are being neglected in this discussion of stab vs. slash are tendons and nerves, which will produce instant results. Many street drugs can produce assailants with inhuman responses. These assailants could temporarily shrug off lethal stabs to vital organs, including the heart. All major tendons of the limbs lie very close to the surface of the body. I know you may be thinking a severed tendon will not dispatch an opponent. However, consider the loss of say your biceps tendon, which would prevent you from flexing your elbow, regardless if you feel it or not. Another prime target could be the brachial plexus (just under the armpit) which would sever the nervous and arterial conduits to the entire arm. With just one slash the attacker would loose the use of his entire arm instantly. Without medical aid they would also bleed out in under a minute. The immediate immobility of ones arm could prove a difficult injury to continue with. In dealing with medicated or fatally determined individuals you can not wait for lack of blood to the brain to render them neutral. It is far faster to target the mechanical components of the anatomy. If nerves are not connected to the muscles, or the muscle is not attached to the bone the limbs will cease to function period. Yes, I know that there are certain stabs that will sever these mechanical components. This would require an extremely accurate thrust; and once the point entered the body it would become an internal slash would it not?
> Any comments? :enguard:


That is why, regardless of slash, stab, blunt trauma weapon, bullet.... I say that the goal is to cause the dysfunction an opponents ability to continue posing a threat/negative behavior and not pain inducement. Pain, as a goal, is really for coercion/compliance for professionals like LEO and such who have to direct or control people. As a civilian martial artist, self defense is not about inducing pain/compliance for me. It is about getting out of there intact


----------



## Cruentus

Gaston said:
			
		

> Two areas that are being neglected in this discussion of stab vs. slash are tendons and nerves, which will produce instant results.  Many street drugs can produce assailants with inhuman responses.  These assailants could temporarily shrug off lethal stabs to vital organs, including the heart.  All major tendons of the limbs lie very close to the surface of the body.  I know you may be thinking a severed tendon will not dispatch an opponent. However, consider the loss of say your biceps tendon, which would prevent you from flexing your elbow, regardless if you feel it or not.  Another prime target could be the brachial plexus (just under the armpit) which would sever the nervous and arterial conduits to the entire arm.  With just one slash the attacker would loose the use of his entire arm instantly. Without medical aid they would also bleed out in under a minute.  The immediate immobility of ones arm could prove a difficult injury to continue with.  In dealing with medicated or fatally determined individuals you can not wait for lack of blood to the brain to render them neutral.  It is far faster to target the mechanical components of the anatomy.  If nerves are not connected to the muscles, or the muscle is not attached to the bone the limbs will cease to function period. Yes, I know that there are certain stabs that will sever these mechanical components.  This would require an extremely accurate thrust; and once the point entered the body   it would become an internal slash would it not?
> Any comments?   :enguard:



This sounds like the Biomechanical cutting theory that I have heard about...I believe that this is something that Bram Frank covers in detail. I say that it is a good theory, particularly for civilian self defense. As I have said before, it depends on what your needs are. Severing a nerve or tendon on the attacking limb may provide for a good escape if you are a civilian dealing with a crazed attacker. If you are military, you may need to go for an instant (as instant as you can, anyways) kill instead of just a disabling attack, which will require a stab. Even if the attacker takes a minute to bleed out, a minute is a long time...long enough for an enemy to attack you again or find a gun to shoot you on the battlefield. Plus, I wouldn't count on the attacker bleeding out unless an artery is severed. But, as a civilian, you may find that killing your attacker at all isn't the best option for you, but that severing a tendon or nerve so they can't attack you is.

It all depends on what you need to do at the moment.

 :asian:


----------



## arnisador

It's an important point. With a smaller knife, I wouldn't want to count on getting a tendon--with a bigger knife, it may be nhard not to do so! It's just another spin on defanging the snake, to my mind--instead of removing the fang (weapon), disable the muscles/nerves/tendons that allow him to raise that weapon and use it.


----------



## loki09789

Tulisan said:
			
		

> This sounds like the Biomechanical cutting theory that I have heard about...I believe that this is something that Bram Frank covers in detail. I say that it is a good theory, particularly for civilian self defense. As I have said before, it depends on what your needs are. Severing a nerve or tendon on the attacking limb may provide for a good escape if you are a civilian dealing with a crazed attacker. If you are military, you may need to go for an instant (as instant as you can, anyways) kill instead of just a disabling attack, which will require a stab. Even if the attacker takes a minute to bleed out, a minute is a long time...long enough for an enemy to attack you again or find a gun to shoot you on the battlefield. Plus, I wouldn't count on the attacker bleeding out unless an artery is severed. But, as a civilian, you may find that killing your attacker at all isn't the best option for you, but that severing a tendon or nerve so they can't attack you is.
> 
> It all depends on what you need to do at the moment.
> 
> :asian:


There are manuals that cover "quick kill" or 'sentry take out' techniques that can be a real eye opener about the difference between knife defense and knife offense.  Either way, I like distance and sending steel where men shouldn't go first when ever possible.


----------



## Cruentus

loki09789 said:
			
		

> There are manuals that cover "quick kill" or 'sentry take out' techniques that can be a real eye opener about the difference between knife defense and knife offense.  Either way, I like distance and sending steel where men shouldn't go first when ever possible.



Yup. Seen the manuals. I like the "Bullet defense" myself!  :asian:


----------



## arnisador

Yes, there's a difference between a military art, where it may be that one _must_ fight and kill, and a self-defense art, where one need only escape and survive.


----------



## arnisandyz

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> The slashing type attacks that are taught in several martial arts is just nonscence in a real high threat situations. The slashing does not effectively take out your opponent. That is why they say expect to get cut. Because you will if you dance around defanging the snake or what ever....So when you join your local club and train all these fancyful knife techniques and sparring back and forth becoming a " knife fighter", just know it doesn't go down like that when it is for real. And all those sweeping slashes, largo mano ect go right out the door.
> 
> Ed



Also, take into consideration the type of knife you are using.  Are you telling me a slash/chop from a kukri to a wrist will have less of an effect than a stab? A shank or a nail would obviously be better with thrust/puncturing. Some knives are better for slashing/chopping, some for thrusting. 

Why eliminate a method of attack? in many cases slashes are used to setup entries, helping bridge the gap to get to your thrust. And if your doing wide "sweeping" slashes as you say that don't seem to work for you, perhaps you should practice tighening your arc and keeping your knife in front of you, rather than giving up on slashing?


----------



## arnisandyz

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> The originator of this thread is no longer a member of Martial Talk.
> 
> ~Tess
> 
> -MT S. Moderator-



Sorry, Didn't realize he was no longer a member...maybe he'll take the extra time and train a little more before he comes back.


----------



## Stick Dummy

Nice Recovery on the thread folks!

Gaston - Good points and worded very eloquently, I'm barely capable of  wording my thoughts although I do think them. 

Many theories and plans, and more tools for the toolbox of all of us. :asian:


----------



## MJS

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Sorry, Didn't realize he was no longer a member...maybe he'll take the extra time and train a little more before he comes back.



If we're lucky, he wont be back!!!

Mike


----------



## Flatlander

Does that happen?  Have you guys ever seen someone get the boot, reincarnate themselves, and catch them again?


----------



## Gaston

Stick Dummy said:
			
		

> Nice Recovery on the thread folks!
> 
> Gaston - Good points and worded very eloquently, I'm barely capable of wording my thoughts although I do think them.
> 
> Many theories and plans, and more tools for the toolbox of all of us. :asian:


 
Thanks for the complements on the posts.  I'm quite enjoying the dialogs that are attempting to share knowledge and promote growth.
GG


----------



## Rich Parsons

flatlander said:
			
		

> Does that happen?  Have you guys ever seen someone get the boot, reincarnate themselves, and catch them again?




This has only happened once or twice with people who I believe were only suspended for a while and could not let the arguement go, and signed back up. Having multiple accounts is against the rules, and breaking a suspension is also.

Relatively speaking the couple of incidents with our many members makes it a real low occurrance rate.
*
Rich Parsons
Martial Talk
Assistant Administrator
*


----------



## Ender

very interesting read. I contacted a friend who is wound care specialist at a major metropolitan hospital and posed the the question "which is deadlier, a knife slash or a stabbing?" The response was: 

"It just depends on where, you can slash the jugular and kill someone as
quick as a knife in the heart"


----------



## DoxN4cer

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Slashing is not an inferior fighting method. Consider flaying your attacker's punching arm lenthwise on the way to his throat, and then pulling the blade through a clavical. He's dead and you never once stabbed him. :asian:



Ah, but I differ here. IMHO, slashing infers a superficial wound. "Slashing" is not the same as "cutting". Cutting is the forceful separation of flesh by a sharp implement. A cut from a knife creates a larger wound that a slash. Within that context, I maintain that slashing IS inferior to stabbing. A cut will create far more penetration and tussue separation than a slash. 

Musashi described this concept very well in his classic.

Tim Kashino


----------



## hardheadjarhead

Bester said:
			
		

> How many knife fights have you been in?
> 
> How many people have you killed with your special techniques?
> 
> Sure, a stab is more lethal...the Romans knew that.
> 
> But the majority of injuries caused by an edged weapon are -SLASHES-.
> 
> http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1341852003
> 
> 
> Of course, I'm interested in what your fantasy-world training would say to the statement "Disarms can get you killed"?



An old, dead thread...but what the heck...I need the practice.

The old debate goes on and on and on and on and on....

The number of fights a person has been in is invalid.  The test sample is too small.  People are always pulling this out...how many street fights have YOU been in?  It makes a difference in some respects, but hardly in this one.  The next fight might be won by a stab or a slash...one can't prognosticate based on previous street experience.  Its as if saying "Ali won his last three fights with a right cross.  Ergo he'll win his next fight with a right cross."  He may not win with a right cross, he may.  He might win with a hook.  He might not win at all.  It could be a draw.  It could be a forfeit.

When you say the Romans knew that a stab was more lethal, they were able to figure that out from experiences wherein HUNDREDS of men stabbed HUNDREDS of Gallic warriors in one day...and slashed them too.  They took a poll, probably, found the stab worked the best, and worked from there.  

The Brits in the early nineteenth century found the slash was better for lethality...and for injuring.  The Brit calvalry sabre could chop a man in half from shoulder to hip, though...something few swords of that size could do up to that time.  It went through the heavy French overcoats quite nicely.  So are we merely dealing with a difference in technology?

When referring to antiquity, WHY did the Romans want the stab versus the slash?  Because it was easier to do?  Because it worked better with the tactics they employed?  Was it all that necessary to kill the Galli right away?  What's wrong with an incapacitating wound?  What about the Brits?  Were they too going for the "one shot stop?"  If so, why?

Anybody here read the "Myth of the Quick Kill?"  I think that's the title.  I'd have to look it up.  It has a lot to say on this topic.  You can download it offline.

Regards,


Steve


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## arnisador

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> "Slashing" is not the same as "cutting". Cutting is the forceful separation of flesh by a sharp implement.


I understand, but I wasn't drawing that distinction for the purposes of this discussion.


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## Cruentus

arnisador said:
			
		

> I understand, but I wasn't drawing that distinction for the purposes of this discussion.



Yea...

There are a whole bunch of different types of attacks with the knife outside of "stab" or "slash". There is the cut as TIm K described, "The run," "The Fillet," "Body assisted attacks" "Hand assists" "C" Cut, rotating poke, rotation, etc., etc. etc.

The knife is very diverse...and the list is actually quiet large. I say don't limit yourself at all, as each attack has it's place. It terms of "edge attack" (where edge of blade is the point of contact) vs. "point attack" (where the tip or point of the blade is the point of contact), the point attack or stabbing attack is generally more lethal...although I say generally because it again all depends.

I think that this whole "arguement" was silly to begin with; if you knoe the strengths and limits to what you are doing, then you can be effective with what you are doing.

My opinions,

William 'Bill the Butcher' Cutting


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## Tgace

I would like to introduce the idea of target selection. Like the ongoing arguement in the firearms community regarding the stopping power of .45 vs. .40 vs. 9mm. A .22 through the eye will kill you just as dead. Slash/cut or stab, its going to depend on what your attacking.


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## OULobo

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> The Brits in the early nineteenth century found the slash was better for lethality...and for injuring.  The Brit calvalry sabre could chop a man in half from shoulder to hip, though...something few swords of that size could do up to that time.  It went through the heavy French overcoats quite nicely.  So are we merely dealing with a difference in technology?



A bit of an OT note, but if you had the power of a charging horse behind it, just about anything "could chop a man in half from shoulder to hip". Even an dull iron bar. That particular example is less about blade construction and more about power transmission.


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## Stick Dummy

Yeppers, The caliber comparison is a VERY good one, we're talking KNIVES here and not swords, military group tactics, sword fencing......
  A high powered rifle is great on the battlefield, but at kissing distance loses some advantage in mobility. A handgun suddenly becomes the "better" choice, and if one is not available, then an edged weapon.

  Think something you can carry in your pocket daily - Every Day Carry knife.

  It really comes down to the fighting mindset, Real time strategy, finesse, and the grace of God, or whatever you believe in spiritually.


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## hardheadjarhead

OULobo said:
			
		

> A bit of an OT note, but if you had the power of a charging horse behind it, just about anything "could chop a man in half from shoulder to hip". Even an dull iron bar. That particular example is less about blade construction and more about power transmission.



For that period, apparently not.  The Brits had had a bit of a tough time with it, and wounds delivered might be painful, but not necessarily lethal.  Some of the blades could be somewhat light...good for a thrust perhaps...but not all that good for cutting through a man.

Note, too, that a horse charges forward.  A downward slash as described is on a more vertical plane.  The horse transmits energy to a thrust, not a slash.

I think it was Christopher Amberger's "The Secret History of the Sword" that discusses this.  I have it upstairs...and were I more mobile I'd run up and get it for you and look up the reference.  If you're in a bookstore I'd advocate checking out this book.  He goes into the slash versus thrust argument quite deeply...("A pun sir!  Oh, touche!")...and he's an advocate of the slash, and a sabre exponent.

An instant stop, then as now, is desireable.  Not all people will lie down when receiving a heavy wound, as we've learned in Somalia, Afghanistan, and Iraq with the ammo we're using in the M-16/M-4 family of weapons.  Should you be fighting with a blade and NOT stop the guy, he could deliver an "AD" technique...i.e., "after death" wherin he is mortally wounded and yet takes you to the grave with him.

Of course we all know people, too, who would get a nick and faint.

As to slash versus stab...I advocate both.  Know what will be most likely to drop a guy instantly and go for it.  Use whatever is necessary to get to that point as quickly as possible.  

Regards,


Steve


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## OULobo

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Note, too, that a horse charges forward.  A downward slash as described is on a more vertical plane.  The horse transmits energy to a thrust, not a slash.



True on a verticle plane which negates the power of the animal, but not on a horzontal planel perp. to a thrust, ie: a clothesline type slash/hack. This still encompasses the power of the horse. The mongels used it for centuries. 



			
				hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> I think it was Christopher Amberger's "The Secret History of the Sword" that discusses this.  I have it upstairs...and were I more mobile I'd run up and get it for you and look up the reference.  If you're in a bookstore I'd advocate checking out this book.  He goes into the slash versus thrust argument quite deeply...("A pun sir!  Oh, touche!")...and he's an advocate of the slash, and a sabre exponent.



I've heard many a good thing about this book. I may have to pick it up this week.


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## hardheadjarhead

OULobo said:
			
		

> True on a verticle plane which negates the power of the animal, but not on a horzontal planel perp. to a thrust, ie: a clothesline type slash/hack. This still encompasses the power of the horse. The mongels used it for centuries.



Good point.  

Its a much safer attack, too.  Thrusts delivered from a horse can injure the arm of the swordsman.  It'll run the opponent through, but could then break the wrist/arm/shoulder or unhorse the swordsman.  Its a rather comical visual, but it makes sense as to how that could happen.


Regards,


Steve


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## someguy

One thought here if a horse is going in one direction and you thrust then you are probably going to have trouble getting you blade outright?  Could be mistaken though.  
One more thing.  The type of knife you have also makes a differnce.  If a blade is curved isnt i usually made more for cutting than thrusting.  If you have a Machette then you will use it more for cutting rather than trusting.  (nearl put that backwards)


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## hardheadjarhead

someguy said:
			
		

> One thought here if a horse is going in one direction and you thrust then you are probably going to have trouble getting you blade outright?  Could be mistaken though.
> One more thing.  The type of knife you have also makes a differnce.  If a blade is curved isnt i usually made more for cutting than thrusting.  If you have a Machette then you will use it more for cutting rather than trusting.  (nearl put that backwards)



I believe extraction of the blade was done with a twist of the wrist, supinating it and pulling the blade out as you passed him.  I'm not really sure.

Regards,


Steve


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## Bod

About a month ago I visited Arundel Castle (in Sussex I think) where they had a jousting display, including a game where the horsemen had to slash a cabbage on a pole in half then spear a paper heart on a hanging straw sack. I think it was called 'cut and thrust'.

During the 'spearing' bit, they thrust into the sack and then, as they went past, let their arm move behind them, and pulled the trailing sword out as they went. As for anything more technical than that, I cannot say.

It was a great display though, with bits of break-away lance-tips flying everywhere in the final display.

I'd guess that thrusting with a sword was more effective against other swordsmen, who could be thrust at at shoulder height. It was difficult enough as it was, with these professional stuntmen and ex-show jumpers missing the straw sack some of the time. The slash seemed easier to execute, especially against a lower down target.

Don't forget that in the Napoleonic wars, the light cavalry were all about charging cannons. For that you'd want to charge in quick and then mill about (behind the cannon) chopping through great coats and Frenchmen. Once you'd scared them off you'd 'spike' the cannons with headless nails through the touch holes. Then run away before the enemy heavy cavalry arrived.

When Ney's cavalry attacked the British cannons at Waterloo, all the guys with the nails got shot on the charge in. The British retook the cannons and shot on the retreating French cavalry. Oops.


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## arnisador

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> I believe extraction of the blade was done with a twist of the wrist, supinating it and pulling the blade out as you passed him.


 
Extraction of the blade has always been a problem. People don't realize how easily a sharp blade can become 'stuck' in a body, and how hard it can be to get it out.


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## OULobo

Supposedly the F-S style SF dagger in its later versions was designed with a finger pad near the hilt on the side of the blade, so that the thumb could be placed on it to assure the orientation of the blade in the dark. This made it easier to slide the blade into a lung with out hitting and getting caught in the ribs.


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