# American Goju



## Brian S (Oct 16, 2007)

Anyone here heard of it, practice it, or teach it?

 I have been a student of American Goju for 17yrs. The way I learned was great! Lots of good stuff in there. Sparring, kata, two man drills, lots of line work and just hard training.

 Oue lineage runs from Yamaguchi to Peter Urban and on down to us from people who no one will recognize. 

 Seems like with this many members someone will have undoubtedly know something.

 Thanks in advance! :supcool:


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## stone_dragone (Oct 16, 2007)

My system, Nahate Goju, is from the Yamaguchi - Urban lineage, or so I'm told.  It's a longer story than that, but short version is my research shows that although I trained in a tough school under a great instructor, I'm not convinced that his instructor was completely honest with his history.

What forms do you use and what is your lineage?


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## Brian S (Oct 16, 2007)

My lineage is as follows: Yamaguchi- Urban- Lou Angel- Dino Cadelli,Dale Simmons, David Syfert and Jasper Smith- Who taught myself and several others.

 The kata we do are the Taikyoku series-Sanchin-Seiunchin-Sanseru-Tensho. Some do more kata,but I do not at this time.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 16, 2007)

I have been around American Goju for my whole 40+ years in the martial arts. Not sure what is comeing out of the schools these days but years ago  they put out some of the strongest, hardest fighters around. Their talent, dedication  and hard practices where obvious to any who ever stood across from them
Some of the offshoot systems that developed from American goju also have been very good with talented people instructing,


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## chinto (Oct 16, 2007)

Brian S said:


> Anyone here heard of it, practice it, or teach it?
> 
> I have been a student of American Goju for 17yrs. The way I learned was great! Lots of good stuff in there. Sparring, kata, two man drills, lots of line work and just hard training.
> 
> ...


 
Im a shorin ryu guy myself, but I wonder what is the diference between "Amarican goju" and Okinawan goju?  can you tell me the diferences??


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## Brian S (Oct 17, 2007)

The split came when Peter Urban split from Gogen Yamaguchi.

 There is a story behind it,but I'll have to research it again to keep an accurate account of what transpired.

 I'm not really sure of the differences. I haven't experienced enough Okinawan Goju to tell you the difference,but I'kk bet the intent is the same.

 "if we are talking look and feel, then we can compare our curriculum and 'movements'. if we are talking function, then we can take the style names away and just talk about the 'why'"

 Oh, here it is.  http://www.mushingojuryu.com/HistoryofGoju.html


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## Brian S (Oct 17, 2007)

American Goju 
The kicks in my style are at soloplex or lower. A lot of leg targets too.

The interpretations to kata contain alot of close range fighting and grappling,joint dislocations, neck/throat strikes,chokes,and strikes to other vital targets or pressure points are a part of our bunkai as well.

Elbows and knees are used as well as different hand formations for strikes.

We do not point spar. Sparring is not from day one,but after a slight understanding of the basics.Usually within the first six months. The contact is moderate and increases with your abilities to as hard as you and your partner agree to.

Physical and mental conditioning is a part of our training. Push-ups,abwork,bagwork,and lots of other fun things are a part of class regularly. Did I mention we have trained outside for over ten years, year round?

Techniques are drilled over and over and practiced with increasing resistance.

 American Goju just as any other style varies from school to school as well. My school has integrated groundfighting too. 

 owari


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 17, 2007)

If I remember correctly the split came after Urban thought he should be given a certian rank and was told flatly NO. Mr. Urban then decided he had enough knowledge to split with Gogen Yamaguchi and open his own system with himslef as GM.
I could be wrong o this but that is the way I remember it


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## Brian S (Oct 17, 2007)

As told by this author who was a student of Urban's it was about him wanting to form a Goju organization in the U.S.

http://www.mushingojuryu.com/HistoryofGoju.html



 "*It was later, while returning to Japan with his wife to attend a Goju Kai TaiKai, that after asking his teacher
s permission to form an American Goju organization, that Urban was to hear the words that would change 
his life and the face of American Karate history forever.

In answer to Urbans request, Yamaguchi supposedly quoting the Bushido, said that, No white man can 
ever achieve Nirvana. (Authors note: Although the word Nirvana is not mentioned in Bushido, one must 
keep in mind that Yamaguchi was also a master of Yoga, and a priest of the Shinto religion, so his 
methodology, spirituality and belief system, was a mixture of the afore mentioned and a Meiji period 
education.)

Being that his teacher sited Bushido as the source of his answer, Urban rebutted by saying But Sensei, 
according to Bushido, Japan can never lose a war

Needless to say, this resulted in an uncomfortable situation, with an angry Yamaguchi, and a dejected 
Urban, who later came back to Yamaguchis table with a knife, and began to perform the archaic 
customary ritual of apology in which one cuts off the little finger of the left hand. Yamaguchis sons 
wrestled the knife from Urban to prevent him from doing so, and Urban left the TaiKai one teacher short 
instead of one finger short.

Many do not know that the next day, Urban and his wife were visited at their hotel by Yamaguchi and his 
wife. Yamaguchi explained to Urban that he had no choice but to think the way he did, because of the 
way he was raised and educated. The two parted ways, not as enemies, but knowing that they could 
never see each other again.

(Note: The author wishes to express that there is absolutely no disrespect meant to the memory of Gogen 
Yamaguchi)..."*


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## chinto (Oct 18, 2007)

Brian S said:


> As told by this author who was a student of Urban's it was about him wanting to form a Goju organization in the U.S.
> 
> http://www.mushingojuryu.com/HistoryofGoju.html
> 
> ...


what I know of Japanese culture and such indicates that the only part of Japanese culture that apoligizes by cutting off the little finger are the YAKUZA.  They are a Traditional Oginized Crime sindicate for lack of a better term. they are similer to the Mafia in the United States, and up through WWII they were refered to as theives with honor, and I understand since about the 1970's have pretty much lost the acolade of  with honor.
If I am in error please tell me, as I would hate to think that what sounds as if its decended from Japanese Goju, and not Okinawan Goju, was some how headed as a system by Yakuza... I dont think that would give a good impression to any art.
by the way there are some diferences between the styles  of Okinawan Goju Ryu and its decendent art in Japan called Japanese Goju ryu.


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## Brian S (Oct 18, 2007)

LOL. I've never heard that before. The story quotes it as an "archaic customary ritual of apology," doesn't sound mafia-like to me.



> by the way there are some diferences between the styles of Okinawan Goju Ryu and its decendent art in Japan called Japanese Goju ryu.


 
 I'm sure there are. There are usually differences between sensei and student's way of teaching eventually, since we make what we do our own.


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## chinto (Oct 18, 2007)

Brian S said:


> LOL. I've never heard that before. The story quotes it as an "archaic customary ritual of apology," doesn't sound mafia-like to me.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure there are. There are usually differences between sensei and student's way of teaching eventually, since we make what we do our own.


 
um perhaps it is a "archaic costomary ritual of apology" but Like I said before, the groop that costom is assosiated with as far as I know are the Yakuza.  I have never heard of any other groop or cast that did that kind of apology in japan except them.
As I understand it missing the first joint of the little finger or even the whole little finger can be a real social handiecap in Japan for that reason, Namely the fact that that kind of injury is associated with the Yakuza so closely.

the diferences between japanese Goju and the original Okinawan Goju come from japanese Goju's founder changing a few things slightly to fit japanese sensiblilitys, and this is how originaly Shotokan became slightly diferent then Kobayashi and has continued to change slowly away from Kobayashi shorin ryu.  So I think the diferences are a bit more then the slight variations between sensei and their students in the case of Japanese Goju and Okinawan Goju from what I understand of it.


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## Brian S (Oct 19, 2007)

Ok. I'll take your word for it on the yakuza thing, it's really not pertinent to the story in my opinion,but I really doubt he was part of that organization. OR, maybe I just want to believe that...?



> the diferences between japanese Goju and the original Okinawan Goju come from japanese Goju's founder changing a few things slightly to fit japanese sensiblilitys, and this is how originaly Shotokan became slightly diferent then Kobayashi and has continued to change slowly away from Kobayashi shorin ryu. So I think the diferences are a bit more then the slight variations between sensei and their students in the case of Japanese Goju and Okinawan Goju from what I understand of it


 
  I see. What are the differences then? Are the differences hurtful to the art? 

 I've talked with alot of people with an elitist point of view who think that somehow having a more pure lineage makes their karate better....? I hope that's not where you are going.

 Every art continually changes, they always have. That does not make it less of an art or less functional. I think it makes them more functional to accept or initiate the change IMO.


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## chinto (Oct 20, 2007)

Brian S said:


> Ok. I'll take your word for it on the yakuza thing, it's really not pertinent to the story in my opinion,but I really doubt he was part of that organization. OR, maybe I just want to believe that...?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

my understanding is its a bit more to the hard end then the Okinawan Goju.. as to good or bad, That would be up to the practioner.. I am not a goju guy.. I study Shorin Ryu myself... I would say that it just makes it diferent.. a slightly diferent doctrin and such that has taken the okinawan Goju system and changed it to fit thier sensibilitys.. ask a goju guy from each and they will tell you the diferences I am sure.


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## Brian S (Oct 20, 2007)

Thanks chinto!


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## Ray B (Oct 21, 2007)

The pinky thing is an old samurai tradition from what I remember.
The left pinky is integral in the use of the sword. When cut off,
the mechanics are changed. The Yakuza adopted the tradition.


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## Ray B (Oct 21, 2007)

chinto said:


> the diferences between japanese Goju and the original Okinawan Goju come from japanese Goju's founder changing a few things slightly to fit japanese sensiblilitys, and this is how originaly Shotokan became slightly diferent then Kobayashi and has continued to change slowly away from Kobayashi shorin ryu. So I think the diferences are a bit more then the slight variations between sensei and their students in the case of Japanese Goju and Okinawan Goju from what I understand of it.


 
Shotokan is derived from both, Shuri and Tomari traditions.
To say it is soley based on Kobayashi is not correct. We do not
practice some of the Shotokan-ized kata like Seisan (Hangetsu) and Wanshu (Enpi).


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## chinto (Oct 22, 2007)

Ray B said:


> Shotokan is derived from both, Shuri and Tomari traditions.
> To say it is soley based on Kobayashi is not correct. We do not
> practice some of the Shotokan-ized kata like Seisan (Hangetsu) and Wanshu (Enpi).


 

really?  I was not awear that Funikoshi had any tamari te instructors. I know he was a student of Anku Itosu.. so who was his instructor in Tamari-te?

I am a student of a style that is about 75% Tamari-te, and we Know where Kyan learned Tamari-Te and from whom..


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## Brian S (Oct 22, 2007)

I'm sure I don't know the answer to that one, but I'll bet none of it had anything to do with American Goju. :uhyeah:


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## Ray B (Oct 23, 2007)

chinto said:


> really? I was not awear that Funikoshi had any tamari te instructors. I know he was a student of Anku Itosu.. so who was his instructor in Tamari-te?
> 
> I am a student of a style that is about 75% Tamari-te, and we Know where Kyan learned Tamari-Te and from whom..


 
Funakoshi's two prominent teachers were Itosu Ahnko and Azato Ahnko.
Azato, like Matsumora, (not to be mistaken for Matsumura) were 
Tomari-te practioners.

FYI, Kyan's karate was also influenced by Shuri-te karate but
his syllabus reflects more of the Tomari teachings. Kyan was
born of noble family and had access to all of the Royal guards.

What does this all have to do with American Goju?
Many Americans cross trained in both disciplines.
Urban trained with Oyama Sosai and his Kyokushin Karate
was made up of both Goju and Shorin. Therefore Urban,
being the father of American Goju, had influences from
Shotokan.


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## twendkata71 (Oct 23, 2007)

I thought that Azato's karate was more Nahate than Tomari te? Perhaps my memory is a little off.


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## Brian S (Oct 23, 2007)

Ray B said:


> Funakoshi's two prominent teachers were Itosu Ahnko and Azato Ahnko.
> Azato, like Matsumora, (not to be mistaken for Matsumura) were
> Tomari-te practioners.
> 
> ...


 
 Had influences yes, but did he incorporate that into his goju schools from the beginning? 

 I guess we could say that each art we have exposure in influences us, but it's up to us what we take from it.


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## Ray B (Oct 23, 2007)

From the Doshinkan web page:

http://doshinkan.com/historytopics/historyokinawa.htm

"Tomari-de
Tomari-de was taught mostly by Aragaki Sensei and Azato Sensei. It may be an over-simplification to say it, but Tomari-de was primarily a combination of the light and airy Shuri-te and the short and powerful Naha-te types of training. Tomari was a sea port district, so Tode practitioners there came into contact with many Chinese merchants, learned many types of Chinese Chuan-fa from them, and so contributed many kinds of kata to Okinawan Tode."

I also found out that Azato and Itosu both studied under Gusukuma,
a Tomari-te practioner.

I glombed this info from other websites so the accuracy may be suspect.
Do some investigation and decide for yourself.

Peace.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 24, 2007)

who is the head of American Goju today?
Of the original 2 systems that where split from American Goju can anyone tell me who heads them today?


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## Brian S (Oct 24, 2007)

I am.......:mst:

 There have been so many splits that it's hard to say.

 Here are some 10th dans in American Goju
http://www.louangel.com/

 John T. Hooker Sr. ??  http://americangoju.com/hooker_web.html

 Grandmaster Sekweii Sha??  http://www.usagoju.com/Grand Master Sekwii Sha hall of farme.htm

 Edward J. Verychkn ?? http://www.usagoju.com/

http://www.usagoju.com/EVcredentiales.htm  Um....yeah.

 Edward Doyle ? http://www.usagoju.com/Arizona.htm

 Sheesh, I could find them all night on the web. !0th dans everywhere.

 Who's to say they are the 'head of the system' ??


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## chinto (Oct 25, 2007)

Ray B said:


> Funakoshi's two prominent teachers were Itosu Ahnko and Azato Ahnko.
> Azato, like Matsumora, (not to be mistaken for Matsumura) were
> Tomari-te practioners.
> 
> ...


Yes I am aware of where Kyan sensei learned his karate, and I was awear of Itosu, but not of ahnko as far as funikoshi was concerned.
Kyan Sensei learned from matsumura and matsomora and Itosu a little too. but most of what he tought seems to have been derived from what Matsomora sensei tought him.

as to the involvment with american goju.. nothing as far as I know.. but a responce to what was stated earler in the thread.


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## dancingalone (Nov 19, 2007)

I have a low dan rank in Okinawan Goju-ryu.   In my opinion what separates the original Okinawan Goju from the Japanese version is the relatively higher stances and incredible focus on bunkai and hojo undo.  The Japanese Goju I have been exposed to have too much sport elements for my taste, but I'm sure that was just the direction the school owner went for financial reasons.

Considering sanchin is the essence of goju practice, I do find it odd that my Japanese Goju friends practice the taikyoku kata from Shotokan.   What you gain from extensive practice of zenkutsu-dachi definitely seems to be more fitting in a long range style than the Goju I study is purported to be.

I cannot speak to American Goju, since I have no knowledge of it.


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## donald (Nov 19, 2007)

I just wanted to post a thank you to all of you who posted here. I enjoyed...

Thanks again,
1stJohn1:9


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