# Toshindo questions: episode 2



## Shogun (Oct 8, 2004)

a final SKH question.

I have some of Hayes videos. I watch them. If I send a video test to Hayes (HSC) and he grants me a rank (Ninpo Kihon menjo) does this bar me from the Bujinkan? even if only by video?

thanks peeps (last time I'll say that)

Kyle Elliott (shogun)


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 8, 2004)

If regular Bujinkan training is available to you, why would you want to?


----------



## Enson (Oct 8, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> If regular Bujinkan training is available to you, why would you want to?


well i'm obviously an outsider when it comes to buji and toshindo, so i will just say this:

maybe there is some benefits of toshindo training that shogun's bujin school doesn't offer.:idunno: 

peace


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 8, 2004)

From dojo to dojo, that may be true.

Overall - not a chance.


----------



## Enson (Oct 8, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Overall - not a chance.


why do you say this? have you trained in toshindo? what experience do you have to make such a bold statement?

doesn't really affect me either way... just would like to know.

peace


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 8, 2004)

If you feel the urge to fill in perceived "gaps" in the Bujinkan arts, odds are you haven't studied what's already available enough, or correctly.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 8, 2004)

Unless, of course, you want to participate in competitions and the like. Or, if you find that your interest in something else surpasses that of your interest in the Bujinkan. That is a pretty far cry from cross-training in for example BJJ (which I have done at several times, mind you) because you think it's the only way of defending yourself on the ground.


----------



## Shogun (Oct 10, 2004)

I am in no way saying Bujinkan has holes. Taijutsu (x-kan or otherwise) is IMO the most complete MA. (although you know how I feel about grappling). May I remind you that SKH still teaches the 9 ryuha just as they were taught to him. Before he started his Toshindo he WAS a Shihan.

I try to attend regular class in booj, but the nearest school is 65 miles away. the next closest school is 70 miles away, and the one after that is 250 miles away. and one of those might not be legit, im checking into it. I have purchased the Togakure Kihon Taijutsu Ten ryaku no maki dvds before I found out that I risk booj banning. I really like the Toshindo and think that long distance students shouldnt be affected by ban. We are simply watching videos after all. I am just gathering others opinions.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 10, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> May I remind you that SKH still teaches the 9 ryuha just as they were taught to him.


As he was taught in the 80's, you mean? That's funny, hardly anyone who regularly trains with Hatsumi sensei these days does.



			
				Shogun said:
			
		

> Before he started his Toshindo he WAS a Shihan.


Does that mean that you know for a fact he isn't one any longer? And if so, does that not answer your question as to whether or not you're allowed to train with him while still respecting Hatsumi sensei's wishes?


----------



## Deaf (Oct 11, 2004)

This is actually a very simple question to answer.  Even though you are "learning by video tape" (which I highly disagree with...video or dvd, make a great supplement to your training but not a great tool to learn from)  you are still training and learning from SKH especially if you choose to receive rank from him. 

You cannot have both!  You either choose to accept the Bujinkan or choose to accept Toshindo.  That is by the wish of Hatsumi Soke.  It is not a gray matter.  It is black and white from my understanding from talking with other higher ranks and admins within the Bujinkan.

If you choose Toshindo then good luck and have fun however do not expect the same type of training nor material that you will get from the Bujinkan.  I know from experience!  

Everyone has the choice to choose the art they wish to learn.  I do not judge a person by that.  If you truly learn something of value to yourself then that is all that matters.  So good luck in which ever decision or path you choose.

~Deaf~


----------



## Enson (Oct 11, 2004)

Deaf said:
			
		

> You cannot have both! You either choose to accept the Bujinkan or choose to accept Toshindo. That is by the wish of Hatsumi Soke. It is not a gray matter. It is black and white from my understanding from talking with other higher ranks and admins within the Bujinkan.~Deaf~


 i have to disagree with this statement. just from what i have read by shiro... who trained at the last taikai in his quest gi... i don't think there should be a problem. i think we have had this conversation before... either that or i'm having "butterfly effect" or something.

peace


----------



## kenanderson (Oct 11, 2004)

Enson, 

Shiro now knows differently. Also, the last tai kai was in Japan earlier this year, and if I recall correctly the tai kai Shiro attended was the one in New Jersey in 2003. That was the last U.S. tai kai. The official statement regarding Mr. Hayes and Toshindo had not been made at that point. It has been made this year, after this year's tai kai. Hope this clears things up for you. 

- Ken Anderson


----------



## r erman (Oct 11, 2004)

This ban mess has been discussed to death.  Last I heard was that it is a rule that a certain japanese shihan enforced at his dojo and with the agreement of a couple of other shihan tried to make it an official booj rule.

For more info read this: 

http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1174&forum=16&start=10


----------



## Kizaru (Oct 11, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> May I remind you that SKH still teaches the 9 ryuha just as they were taught to him. Before he started his Toshindo he WAS a Shihan.... I really like the Toshindo and think that long distance students shouldnt be affected by ban.


:nuke:Just to throw a little gasoline onto the fire...:nuke:

The names of Judans (and above) are painted on sticks called "Tako" and hung on the walls of the Honbu Dojo with a special place for those who have passed away. Recently, a longtime member of the Bujinkan passed away and his tako was moved to that place. At the same time, other names of people who are no longer part of the Bujinkan were "taken down for cleaning". I'm not a student of Stephen Hayes, but I'll say this, "Stephen Hayes' tako is still hanging up there... " 

Draw your own conclusions.

:asian:


----------



## Deaf (Oct 11, 2004)

r erman said:
			
		

> This ban mess has been discussed to death.  Last I heard was that it is a rule that a certain japanese shihan enforced at his dojo and with the agreement of a couple of other shihan tried to make it an official booj rule.
> 
> For more info read this:
> 
> http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1174&forum=16&start=10




Well that is totally false.  Think what you will however do be prepared to the fact that if you are training with SKH, you WILL be turned down by the Bujinkan.  This information has been passed down by the Bujinkan Admins during their seminars etc.  

Believe what you will.  I'm not beating this horse to death anymore within this forum.  anyone can private message me if they wish on the subject.

~Deaf~


----------



## Deaf (Oct 11, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> i have to disagree with this statement. just from what i have read by shiro... who trained at the last taikai in his quest gi... i don't think there should be a problem. i think we have had this conversation before... either that or i'm having "butterfly effect" or something.
> 
> peace




As Ken Anderson stated...shiro was at the Jersey tai kai, BEFORE the ban was implemented.

~Deaf~


----------



## Don Roley (Oct 12, 2004)

A couple of clarifications before I get to the meat of my point.

Clarification one- Kyle (Shogun) _does nto care what Hatsumi thinks of Hayes or wishes to follow his advice on the matter._ The only thing he is interested in is if there will be a fallout from doing as he wants to. He may believe that Hatsumi thinks Hayes is the worst example of charecter, he teaches his students wrong and he does not want people to train with Hayes but as long as he is not banned, he cares not. So can we nip in the bud the posts I feel are coming with stories about what people have heard Hatsumi say about Hayes. If Shogun wants that, he can look at the thread R Erman posted and try to contact some of the people who have posted there privately. We do not need that here.

Clarification two- the word being thrown around in this thread is "banned" but that is not the term used  if you bother to get the most direct accounts of the story. There is a difference between words like "banned" and "are not welcome". I can see how after a few tellings one word would morph into another, but the differences between the two are there and are important. I would suggest that interested parties read the book "Illuminated Spirit" to see how things sometimes go in a martial arts dojo in Japan and how the differences may play a role.

Having said that, I now must say that I find the idea  little silly. I am talking about getting a certificate or rank from a video course when you think it may be detrimental. Heck, I think the idea of getting a certificate or rank by video to be silly any time. For that matter, I tend to think of the idea of rank altogether as being silly.

What do you need rank or certificates for? If it is something that qualifies you to do something, then it has merit. If you get the same benifit without the need for a nice piece of paper, the only reason I see is to impress others. And I think of working to impress others to be one of the stupidest things I can imagine. There is a reason why I mention my rank in the Japanese language and not my Bujinkan rank. One has relevence here, the other does not.

And videos can not tell the whole picture in something as rich and deep as the arts that make up the Bujinkan. Trying to learn from them for the purposes of getting neat little pieces of paper to impress your friends..... :erg: 

Mind you, I have _tons_ of videos. I find them great sources of reference, inspiration and a source of insight from time to time. But there is no way I would think that they contain the _sum total_ of what can be found in the arts headed by Hatsumi. And by accepting some sort of certificate, you are saying that you have a rounded understanding of the subject you have the certificate in.

So....why bother getting the certificates if you already have the videos and the knowledge within them? What purpose would the certificates have? What benifit would they bring to you?

Have you thought about it from that standpoint?


----------



## gmunoz (Oct 12, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I am in no way saying Bujinkan has holes. Taijutsu (x-kan or otherwise) is IMO the most complete MA. (although you know how I feel about grappling). May I remind you that SKH still teaches the 9 ryuha just as they were taught to him. Before he started his Toshindo he WAS a Shihan.
> 
> I try to attend regular class in booj, but the nearest school is 65 miles away. the next closest school is 70 miles away, and the one after that is 250 miles away. and one of those might not be legit, im checking into it. I have purchased the Togakure Kihon Taijutsu Ten ryaku no maki dvds before I found out that I risk booj banning. I really like the Toshindo and think that long distance students shouldnt be affected by ban. We are simply watching videos after all. I am just gathering others opinions.


Shogun,

I am a To-Shin Do practitioner. I love it. My opinion regarding your situation: I understand you are attempting to supplement your training due to the distance between you and your Bujinkan school. Personally, I applaud your open mind to video training. I too agree that a long distance training by video is incomplete in and of itself.  Mr. Hayes is emphatic about the need to have a training partner and attend training seminars.  I use these things to supplement my training.  To think that someone can look at a video and achieve mastery is ludicrous.  Even so, I realize some are appauled by long distance learned and that's okay.  To each his own. BUT, why does it seem you haven't asked your school about this supposed "ban" against Mr. Hayes? Why don't you call them and ask them personally instead of relying on a miriad of different opinions from all walks of life and parts of the world via internet? If there is a ban, then your school will tell you. Go with what your teacher says and let that be that. My $.02.


----------



## Shogun (Oct 12, 2004)

> Clarification one- Kyle (Shogun) _does nto care what Hatsumi thinks of Hayes or wishes to follow his advice on the matter._ The only thing he is interested in is if there will be a fallout from doing as he wants to. He may believe that Hatsumi thinks Hayes is the worst example of charecter, he teaches his students wrong and he does not want people to train with Hayes but as long as he is not banned, he cares not. So can we nip in the bud the posts I feel are coming with stories about what people have heard Hatsumi say about Hayes. If Shogun wants that, he can look at the thread R Erman posted and try to contact some of the people who have posted there privately. We do not need that here.


That is incorrect. I would care if I knew the facts. Ken Anderson has told me of a seminar where I can get my answers. Actually, I wanted to know if I could train in both Toshindo AND Bujinkan. Its apparent that I cant. I would never pick videos and occasional seminars over live training and a tight community such as the Bujinkan so case closed on that.

as far as video training:
I, like many on these boards, live all aspects of the martial arts. I practice them several times a week (several types) and when I go home, I watch tapes on them (several types). I order UFC and Pride PPVs, and I talk on MA boards with people like me. Videos are a small but important part of my MA life.

From what I have read, Hayes and Hatsumi are still "friends", but they do different things. thats all.
actually, I dont currently belong to either organization. I am not ranked within the Bujinkan, and I only have dvds from Hayes and Toshindo.

Good training,
Kyle Elliott


----------



## Cryozombie (Oct 12, 2004)

Shogun.

 I dont see anything wrong with learning from the Toshindo tapes.  

 I wouldnt bother sending for "mail order rank" from what I learned on a DVD.  It is, IMHO stupid.  If all you want is mail order rank, you might as well do the Von Donk videos and not have to worry about your status with the Bujinkan.

 But if all you really want is a way to supplement your training, by all means, use whatever tapes work for you. 

 Just my opinion...


----------



## r erman (Oct 12, 2004)

This from Deaf:



> Well that is totally false. Think what you will however do be prepared to the fact that if you are training with SKH, you WILL be turned down by the Bujinkan. This information has been passed down by the Bujinkan Admins during their seminars etc.



This from Duncan Mitchell, from Japan, from Nagato's dojo:



> I talked to Nagato-sensei just maybe a session or two after any anouncement was made. I found out about it because he had just told someone that if he trained with Ishizuka-sensei that he was not to train at Nagato's dojo. I then quizzed Nagato-sensei with a few questions and the basic message I got was
> 
> - Soke had said we shouldn't train with Ishizuka or Muramatsu _*(Hayes wasn't mentioned - but that doesn't supprise me as I am Australian)*_
> 
> ...



(Bold and Italics are my emphasis, not in original)

How was what I posted false in light of this?  Now, mind you, this is not the only thing I'm going off of, but this is the most public statement I've read.

And we can continue this in pm if you like, but don't leave such a contentious statement hanging and then bow out of discussion--especially when I linked backing public material close to the source of the discussion in my 'false' post...

Cheers,


----------



## Cryozombie (Oct 12, 2004)

r erman said:
			
		

> And we can continue this in pm if you like,
> 
> Cheers,


 That may be the best course of action at this point.


----------



## Shogun (Oct 14, 2004)

Who said you where wrong? I am not going to test with Hayes. I do, however, recommend his videos, even for Bujinkan people. You can purchase very specific videos from Hayes. I just received Toshindo Takagi Shoden kata 1+2.

peace,
Kyle


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 15, 2004)

Personally, I find the choice between Hayes videos and Hatsumi/Arnaud/Pedro videos pretty easy to make.


----------



## Cryozombie (Oct 15, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Personally, I find the choice between Hayes videos and Hatsumi/Arnaud/Pedro videos pretty easy to make.


 Im not sure who Arnaud/Pedro are...

 But I love watching Hatsumi's videos, and I get a lot of good ideas from them... I find, however, at my level, that they are "lacking" in the qualities I most need... not to say that Hatsumi or his videos are lacking, mind you, but at my level, what I need is "Instruction".  Im sure tha Dan ranks can watch a Hatsumi video and go "Ah, ahha" and work from what they see... but for a lowly Kyu rank like me... 

 For example.  I feel I need more work on my Kihon Happo. I asked my instructor if he has any good Kihon Happo videos... and he gave me "Kobudo no Kihon"

 Great DVD... I didnt improve my Kihon Happo technique much with it.  I think that a step by step like Von Donk or even Hayes would be better for learning techniques, and that Hatsumi videos are great for concepts, ideas, and feelings.

 But... again, I'm just a lowly Kyu rank... my opinion may change as my rank does... :idunno:


----------



## Shogun (Oct 15, 2004)

Hayes videos are very good for lower ranks. Technopunk, I would recommend to you the Togakure ryu Ten ryaku no Maki Kihon video from SKH. it is over 1 hr long, (I think its 90 min) and includes the Kihon Happo, San Shin no kata, Juroppo ken kata, Muto dori, and other stuff. It is in classical form, so the same stuff the Booj teaches. Its $49.95, but worth it. I heard Hoban Shihan has a good Kihon Happo. The reason I keep buying the SKH videos is the quality. they are the best quality I have seen. Panther quality.

Cheers,
KE


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 16, 2004)

If "classic" is the same as 80's style taijutsu, then you can get much better elsewhere. Things change within the Bujinkan. With a vengeance.


----------



## r erman (Oct 16, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Personally, I find the choice between Hayes videos and Hatsumi/Arnaud/Pedro videos pretty easy to make.



Yeah, me too.




			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> If "classic" is the same as 80's style taijutsu, then you can get much better elsewhere. Things change within the Bujinkan. With a vengeance.



What recent material of SKH have you seen?  Just curious...


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 16, 2004)

I believe it was something he recorded in the mid-90's. Can't remember exactly what it was right now though. What I can say that he's good for what it's worth. Then again, there are others who are not nearly as famous as Hayes is but nonetheless incredibly skilled and travel to Japan regularly.


----------



## Shogun (Oct 16, 2004)

Well, I might not be the best judge (being non-ranked), but I find his stuff pretty good. 

IMO, though, it doesnt matter how good someone is, if they can't teach, how can they be a good teacher. if you think about it, the rest is irrelevent. I have watched some clips of some other Bujinkan Shihan videos, (and being an untouchable as far as Booj ranks go), find Hoban or Hayes easier to understand.
ps I'm pretty sure Hayes' training is as recent as 1996,(after the 80's), when he founded Toshindo. I could be mistaken, .......but I'm pretty sure. Hayes could be lying, but he claims to have recent training on his videos. He also says his Certs. come from Japan. who knows.......no seriously, does anyone know?


----------



## r erman (Oct 17, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Well, I might not be the best judge (being non-ranked), but I find his stuff pretty good.



I find it better than 'pretty good' most of the time 



			
				Shogun said:
			
		

> ps I'm pretty sure Hayes' training is as recent as 1996,(after the 80's), when he founded Toshindo. I could be mistaken, .......but I'm pretty sure. Hayes could be lying, but he claims to have recent training on his videos. He also says his Certs. come from Japan. who knows.......no seriously, does anyone know?



I've seen pictures of him training at hombu from '98.  And very recent video footage of Hatsumi performing hanbo waza with SKH as uke--probably within the last year or so...you can tell because it's after he lost so much weight.

Last I head he's still getting booj diplomas for his SOI people--and that was a couple of months ago.


----------



## jibran (Oct 19, 2004)

Buyu,
In a personal letter ( in reply to my inquiry on this very topic) on September 29th (of this year), Mr. Hayes said,
"'I still continue to get Bujhinkan Dojo diplomas for my students.

Hatsumi Sensei just sent me the latest package of diplomas for my students 3 weeks ago, along with a letter commenting about my daughters university work.'" 

Maybe this is a change made after the announcement or something but it is fairly recent. It is possible that Shadows of Iga now issues Bujinkan diplomas and did not at the time of the announcement.


----------



## gmunoz (Oct 19, 2004)

SOI have issued Bujinkan Dojo diplomas for some time.  I have also confirmed this personally with Don Phillips in Dayton, OH. at Quest Hombu.


----------



## Enson (Oct 20, 2004)

jibran said:
			
		

> Buyu,
> In a personal letter ( in reply to my inquiry on this very topic) on September 29th (of this year), Mr. Hayes said,
> "'I still continue to get Bujhinkan Dojo diplomas for my students.
> 
> ...


welcome to martial talk. look around and have fun. be sure to use the search option to find any previous topics discussed.
peace


----------



## jibran (Oct 20, 2004)

A little off topic but congrats FATHER Enson. 
If you want to know how the ninja raised their kids, read "The Ninja: and Their Secret Fighting Art" by Mr. Hayes ideas


----------



## jibran (Oct 20, 2004)

I know that SOI has always issued BJK diplomas; it was, in fact, the first major arm of the Bujinkan Dojo.  When I said 





> did not at the time of the announcement


 I meant it doubtfully.


----------



## gmunoz (Oct 20, 2004)

From what I have read on a Bujinkan forum, it seems like the controversy regarding An-Shu Hayes is with certain teachers in Bujinkan.  No one has ever posted, at least from my attempts to find something, that Hatsumi has specifically said that.  It may be perhaps just within certain teachers requiring their specific students not to train with them and if so, they would not be allowed to be in that school.  If they are prominent teachers within Buj, then I could understand where that is coming from.  Check with your teacher and if he/she says that is the case for their school, then that's that regarding the video training w/SKH.  Good luck.


----------



## Shogun (Oct 20, 2004)

Good point, but then if you think about it this way: your teacher may say its ok, (mine would) but that is all the further you can go (maybe). Hatsumi says one who does is "not welcome". when Hatsumi speaks, the Shihan listen, so therefore no seminars, and no rank higher than your teachers. I wouldnt disrespect the wishes of the person who brought it into the open. remember, Hayes might of introduced Ninjutsu to america, but Hatsumi introduced Ninjutsu to _Americans_.


----------



## gmunoz (Oct 20, 2004)

True, true.  To me, it's all good.  Japan, American, obviously two different concepts, methodologies, etc.  I love it all...!


----------



## Cryozombie (Oct 23, 2004)

For what it's worth...

 I asked Shihan Ed Martin today what the Bujinkan's policy on training with Mr. Hayes...

 He said Soke Hatsumi stated that if you Train with Mr. Hayes you are not welcome with the Bujinkan. 

 Take that for what it's worth.


----------



## Tgace (Oct 23, 2004)

As somebody with only book knowledge (and 80's ninja craze knowledge) of Ninjutsu, when and why did this split occur? From what I see here, it appears this Toshindo issue is why. But why did SKH do it in the first place if it meant a split from the Bujinkan?


----------



## Shogun (Oct 25, 2004)

According to Hayes, he "asked" Hatsumi, and Hatsumi told him to do it.


----------



## gmunoz (Oct 25, 2004)

Yes, Hayes sensei was told by Hatsumi that things in America needed to be changed to address our culture here.  Mr. Hayes introduced To-Shin Do as an tribute to his teacher.  This is per Mr. Hayes directly.


----------



## Cryozombie (Oct 26, 2004)

It was stated to me that one of the main reasons for this is that what Hayes is currently teaching is "Radicaly" different than what is being taught in the Bujinkan...

 Do you think its possible (and this is pure conjecture on my part) that what he did with Toshindo was a "Radicaly" different change than what Hatsumi meant when he said change it for Americans?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 26, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Yes, Hayes sensei was told by Hatsumi that things in America needed to be changed to address our culture here. Mr. Hayes introduced To-Shin Do as an tribute to his teacher. This is per Mr. Hayes directly.


What is it that makes America so special that the Bujinkan doesn't fit in there, according to Hayes? Surely, it can't be the general inability of Americans to do ukemi, or anything like that?


----------



## gmunoz (Oct 26, 2004)

Hatsumi is the one that told Mr. Hayes that he needed to adjust things to American culture.  Again, he did it based on Hatsumi's recommendation.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 26, 2004)

Kyojitsu is a fabulous thing.


----------



## r.severe (Oct 26, 2004)

Technopunk stated, "For what it's worth...
I asked Shihan Ed Martin today what the Bujinkan's policy on training with Mr. Hayes... He said Soke Hatsumi stated that if you Train with Mr. Hayes you are not welcome with the Bujinkan.  Take that for what it's worth."

Technopunk, I have had a great deal of personal problems with what Ed Martin has said over the past 6 months.
His record shows he doesn't tell the truth or gets heresay information and passes it off as truth.
His word has been at question by many people here in the Texas area and he has lost his credibility with us in regards to what he says.Take that for what it's worth too.

I can't tell you how much I respect Hayes shihan and his programs.
I would stand next to him any day.

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Cryozombie (Oct 26, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> His record shows he doesn't tell the truth or gets heresay information and passes it off as truth.


 Ralph, 

 Just so I understand your comments, 

 You are saying that Shihan Martin is a Liar, correct?


----------



## r erman (Oct 26, 2004)

> You are saying that Shihan Martin is a Liar, correct?



I think Ralph's phrasing was pretty blunt.  It may have been better left to pm, but it's now up for critique.  I have had no dealings with Ed Martin, with the exception of one boo-fest several years ago, and thus have no opinion of the man, but I think most of us know of certain well-known individuals who sometimes over or mis-state things.  And, fwiw, I've heard several things 'directly from hombu' in the past that wound up being incorrect.  Someone mentioned kyojitsu--I agree, but not the way it was implied.

Honestly when you posted your reply I almost, once again, pasted the link to kutaki where it was stated, unequivocally, that the 'unwelcome' rule was for Nagato's dojo only and that Hatsumi had not made an announcement or 'rule'--this from people living in Japan close to the source.  

I cannot see why people will not accept the word of someone who spoke directly to Nagato Shihan about the statement that _he_ made and publically repeated what Nagato Shihan(once again, the person who made the announcement in the first place) told him...

If you do not like Steve Hayes or what he does, or fear some kind of reprisal for training with him, DON'T train with him or his people.  Pretty simple.


----------



## r.severe (Oct 26, 2004)

Ralph, 
Just so I understand your comments, 
You are saying that Shihan Martin is a Liar, correct?
Technopunk


Yes, he is if it is to do with what I have understood through his e-mails and statements to me directly.
I have well over 20 e-mails over the past 6 months in regards to him and his misleading statements towards others who train with me, Bujinkan members and other martial artist.
You may e-mail directly if you have any questions regarding what I have said.

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Cryozombie (Oct 26, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Yes, he is if it is to do with what I have understood through his e-mails
> 
> ralph severe, kamiyama


 I see... your belief he is a liar comes from your level of understanding of his emails.

 Thank you for your clarification.


----------



## r.severe (Oct 26, 2004)

Belief and faith come from personal judgment.
Reason comes from knowledge.
I have the knowledge of his e-mails to give me reason to feel the way I do about his character.
I'm not saying this from heresay or just saying it because of some personal feelings.
Thanks..
ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Cryozombie (Oct 26, 2004)

r erman said:
			
		

> Honestly when you posted your reply I almost, once again, pasted the link to kutaki where it was stated, unequivocally, that the 'unwelcome' rule was for Nagato's dojo only and that Hatsumi had not made an announcement or 'rule'--this from people living in Japan close to the source.


 I'm sorry for sounding stupid but what is Kutaki? Im not familiar with the term, so I don't know that their word is "unequivocally" law.  I have heard from a few people "Close to the source" as well that it is forbiden.

 I guess the only way we will know for sure is if we can con Shogun into going and doing the Training with Mr. Hayes and then see if they let him train in the Booj.

 Whadda ya say Shogun?


----------



## Blind (Oct 26, 2004)

I don`t mean to be picky, but Knowledge comes from Reason(keeping it simple). Not the other way around. Simply put we use reason to organise the things we percieve into what becomes our knowledge...if you imagine it the other way around it would be necessary to know the answer to question X before you could use your reasoning to find it.


----------



## r.severe (Oct 26, 2004)

Knowledge comes from Reason. Not the other way around. Simply put we use reason to organise the things we percieve into what becomes our knowledge...if you imagine it the other way around it would be necessary to know the answer to question X before you could use your reasoning to find it.


Blind... I disagree.
You research to gain knowledge.
Knowlwedge in turn gives the human being reson to know what the facts are from the research.
It would be very strange to say you have reason without the facts of knowledge first.

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## r erman (Oct 27, 2004)

> I'm sorry for sounding stupid but what is Kutaki? Im not familiar with the term, so I don't know that their word is "unequivocally" law. I have heard from a few people "Close to the source" as well that it is forbiden.



Kutaki no Mura is about as close to an official bujinkan discussion forum you will find.  The link I spoke of is waaay back 2 pages ago.  I even quoted Duncan Mitchell's post where he repeated what he was told by Nagato Shihan.  Duncan is not the only source for this either.

I've no problem discussing anything further in pm or e-mail.


----------



## gmunoz (Oct 27, 2004)

I have very recently been on a Bujinkan forum as well and most say that it was Nagato's dojo that the rule applies.  No has specifically said there that they've a public declaration has been made from Hatsumi personally.  It's always two people travelling said that he said that he said that he said.  Very confusing.

Again, as someone already mentioned.  If you're fearful of taking the risk then don't take it.


----------



## jibran (Oct 27, 2004)

Kutaki No Mura  is a Bujinkan forum; it is frequented by many students who are living in nihon and senior shihan. You can usually get good, accurate advice there.


----------



## Blind (Oct 27, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Knowledge comes from Reason. Not the other way around. Simply put we use reason to organise the things we percieve into what becomes our knowledge...if you imagine it the other way around it would be necessary to know the answer to question X before you could use your reasoning to find it.
> 
> 
> Blind... I disagree.
> ...


What you are talking about is reasonS, not reason. Reason is something we are born with an ability to do(most of us). Using reason we research, "why did X happen?" we think, ponder and experiment on it using reason to find an answer, when we do that becomes part of what we call our knowledge. Once we have gained that knowledge we may use it in future to continue to reason based off what we think we know.

You may have reasonS to make a judgement based off your knowledge, but your ability to reason does not come from your knowledge. If you had said my reasons are based off my knowledge of what I feel I know then fine.


----------



## heretic888 (Oct 27, 2004)

Hey, guys.... this isn't the Study. You can discuss the epistemology of reason there.


----------

