# Does age or size really matter?



## MartialMania (Oct 28, 2016)

Hey guys and girls,  Im fairly new to the martial arts community, mainly focused on Judo atm. im pretty active and pride myself on fitness, guilty of a bit too much lifting. I recently began with introduction lessons, and a particular one really got me thinking. so in one of my more recent sessions the current instructor used me to demonstrate the sankaku-jime for some self defense lessons. the student he chose to demonstrate said technique was a 10 year old girl, white belt iirc. now just to be clear, im 23 years old. so he tells me to get in the correct position for her to execute the sankaku.im flat on my back when she approached and finally put me in the sankaku, her legs locked and really clamping down hard. at this moment the instructor tells me to try escape, luckily i get my one arm free and tried to pry her legs apart, and it was pretty much impossible. i swear it felt like my upper body was being crushed by a damn bear.  it was a kinda shock for me at that moment, at how effective (and damn painful) these techniques are.

I really was impressed at how these classes can help people, especially little kids learn to protect themselves.
i mean in the situation where a kid would get bullied, these techniques are invaluable. i mean if a 10 year old little girl can pretty much knock me out, she shouldnt need any help protecting herself.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Oct 28, 2016)

MartialMania said:


> guilty of a bit too much lifting.



That is your first mistake, there is no such thing as too much lifting. Size can matter, I often find it harder to do certain throws on people much shorter than me because of the lower center of gravity, while tall lanky people go flying .


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 28, 2016)

Size and age absolutely do matter. You will be faster when you're younger and have more stamina (generally), and the bigger you are, the harder you can hit, the better your reach, and it is probably tougher to throw you.
However, with training, you will gain more speed and stamina, and with technique you can hit harder, make better use of your range, and make it tougher to be hit/thrown. 

One thing to keep in mind is: If you have two people with similar ability/technique, that is where the size and age difference will become clear.


----------



## Juany118 (Oct 28, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> That is your first mistake, there is no such thing as too much lifting. Size can matter, I often find it harder to do certain throws on people much shorter than me because of the lower center of gravity, while tall lanky people go flying .



Age and size do matter, but it's complicated.  First it depends on how you lift.  Here are some issues...
1. What do you work on.  One guy I work with does little to no leg work.  Most martial arts put a premium on having strength throughout the entire body.  Your core and your legs are the foundation that your Art is built upon.
2. Maintain flexibility.  Without flexibility the strength is useless.
3. Do not neglect cardio.  I have won against stronger people simply because I was better conditioned.

As long as these rules are followed, imo, the strength is important because if it's a matter of two equally strong guys facing each other the bigger guy wins.

As for age, it matters, you have to train harder at building strength, flexibility and conditioning as you get older and, eventually no matter how hard you train it is problematic but you have to be rather old for that last bit to matter.  Again just my 2 cents


----------



## Kickboxer101 (Oct 28, 2016)

Yes size does matter and yeah sure she put you down easily but let's not forget you weren't fighting her you were put in the correct position and just standing there. Really the attacker would be amped up throwing punches and trying to hurt her. Not saying she couldn't still do it but there's other factors to consider as well fact is there's no magic wand sure she can defend herself but she could also still get beaten even with training. It doesn't turn you into Rambo where you can destroy everyone it helps of course it does but any martial artist /can/ be beaten on any day. 

So yes size is an advantage as long as your not to slow because of it and you as long as the muscle doesn't restrict your movement or cardio


----------



## oaktree (Oct 28, 2016)

Oh this old debate it's Halloween and the dead horse has become a ghost.

In some cases the bigger younger person will win, in other cases the person who is skilled, in some cases its the guy who reaches his gun first.
Would I rather fight the 300lb former NFL linebacker or the 80 year old grandma I'm going to want to fight the old lady 8 out of 10 times. The other 2 times grandma is carrying a gun.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 28, 2016)

Age and size always matters.


----------



## oaktree (Oct 28, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Age and size always matters.


Does it really when I draw my gun on you?
How about the 200lb who has never fought before vs the 150lb who is a black belt in several arts?  Size matters in some cases, weapons can be the equalizers, fighting dirty, having the mind set to kill your opponent, having experience in fighting all our factors.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 28, 2016)

So a smaller person with a little training can hold onto a person with no training, if that untrained person stands still long enough for the hold to be fully applied before resisting....

While training can mitigate differences in size and strength to some extent, they will always be a factor in any conflict.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 28, 2016)

oaktree said:


> Does it really when I draw my gun on you?



Yes.



> How about the 200lb who has never fought before vs the 150lb who is a black belt in several arts?  Size matters in some cases, weapons can be the equalizers, fighting dirty, having the mind set to kill your opponent, having experience in fighting all our factors.



You mean like a 200 lb muscle head vs. a 150 lb guy who studied McDojo Kung Fu and has a 3 black belts?

My money is on the 200 lb muscle head.

Keep in mind. I never said that the younger or larger person would always win. I said that Age and Size is always a factor.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 28, 2016)

oaktree said:


> Does it really when I draw my gun on you?
> How about the 200lb who has never fought before vs the 150lb who is a black belt in several arts?  Size matters in some cases, weapons can be the equalizers, fighting dirty, having the mind set to kill your opponent, having experience in fighting all our factors.



Yes, it matters. The _*extent*_ to which differences in size and strength matter is affected by a bazillion variables (including, but not limited to, the ones you mention), but they are always a factor. Sometimes they're a trivial factor. Sometimes they're _*the*_ deciding factor. Usually they're somewhere in between.

But they're always a factor.


----------



## oaktree (Oct 28, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> So a smaller person with a little training can hold onto a person with no training, if that untrained person stands still long enough for the hold to be fully applied before resisting....
> 
> While training can mitigate differences in size and strength to some extent, they will always be a factor in any conflict.


Size matters in some cases is what I said.  Plenty of cases where a smaller guy beats a bigger guy because he is more experience in fighting, as there are cases where a bigger guy beats a smaller experienced guy. it does not matter your age or how big you are once I draw my gun and fire at you and empty my chamber you are going down.


----------



## oaktree (Oct 28, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Its not a factor when you have a gun drawn on someone. I was thinking of the guy who has 3 belts in judo, krav maga, and escrima vs the 200lb guy.


----------



## oaktree (Oct 28, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Yes, it matters. The _*extent*_ to which differences in size and strength matter is affected by a bazillion variables (including, but not limited to, the ones you mention), but they are always a factor. Sometimes they're a trivial factor. Sometimes they're _*the*_ deciding factor. Usually they're somewhere in between.
> 
> But they're always a factor.


I do not need to take the size and age of someone when I have my gun drawn on someone from 10 feet away pointed at his center mass with 38 slugs, I will take in consideration if he is on PCP but again emptying my rounds in him he can be 6'6 and 300 lbs he is going down


----------



## MartialMania (Oct 28, 2016)

Yes size does matter and yeah sure she put you down easily but let's not forget you weren't fighting her you were put in the correct position and just standing there.

Yes i wasnt fighting her, but still what shocked me was when she squeezed, i tried to get her legs loose and couldnt, i was pretty much powerless. that little girl had powerful legs , stronger than my arms at least.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 28, 2016)

MartialMania said:


> Yes i wasnt fighting her, but still what shocked me was when she squeezed, i tried to get her legs loose and couldnt, i was pretty much powerless. that little girl had powerful legs , stronger than my arms at least.



If your question is "Can I do anything with my size once they get a proper hold on me?" The answer is probably not most of the time.

And I doubt a 10 year old had extraordinarily powerful legs, you just learned how potent a good hold can be.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 28, 2016)

MartialMania said:


> Hey guys and girls,  Im fairly new to the martial arts community, mainly focused on Judo atm. im pretty active and pride myself on fitness, guilty of a bit too much lifting. I recently began with introduction lessons, and a particular one really got me thinking. so in one of my more recent sessions the current instructor used me to demonstrate the sankaku-jime for some self defense lessons. the student he chose to demonstrate said technique was a 10 year old girl, white belt iirc. now just to be clear, im 23 years old. so he tells me to get in the correct position for her to execute the sankaku.im flat on my back when she approached and finally put me in the sankaku, her legs locked and really clamping down hard. at this moment the instructor tells me to try escape, luckily i get my one arm free and tried to pry her legs apart, and it was pretty much impossible. i swear it felt like my upper body was being crushed by a damn bear.  it was a kinda shock for me at that moment, at how effective (and damn painful) these techniques are.
> 
> I really was impressed at how these classes can help people, especially little kids learn to protect themselves.
> i mean in the situation where a kid would get bullied, these techniques are invaluable. i mean if a 10 year old little girl can pretty much knock me out, she shouldnt need any help protecting herself.


Size and strength will always matter, they give a decided advantage. Great technique can negate that, unless the opponent has similar technique. BJJ is a great example of this - there are plenty of examples of smaller people (even women) using BJJ to overcome a larger, stronger opponent. You won't find that if the larger, stronger opponent is equally skilled in BJJ.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 28, 2016)

oaktree said:


> Does it really when I draw my gun on you?
> How about the 200lb who has never fought before vs the 150lb who is a black belt in several arts?  Size matters in some cases, weapons can be the equalizers, fighting dirty, having the mind set to kill your opponent, having experience in fighting all our factors.


Actually, yes. A larger person will often take longer to shut down when shot (body mass slows the bullet), so can do more after being shot. Weapons are equalizers, but they don't remove the advantage of being bigger. A weapon usually has a greater effect on a smaller person than a larger person.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 28, 2016)

oaktree said:


> I do not need to take the size and age of someone when I have my gun drawn on someone from 10 feet away pointed at his center mass with 38 slugs, I will take in consideration if he is on PCP but again emptying my rounds in him he can be 6'6 and 300 lbs he is going down


If you honestly believe a person's size has no effect on ballistics and wound effects, you've missed something in your research.


----------



## marques (Oct 29, 2016)

Of course, size and age matters (as well as many other factors...). The question I ask is 'How much training can reinforce (or overcome) these natural (dis)advantages?'


----------



## KangTsai (Oct 29, 2016)

Yes, physical traits matter a lot in martial arts. Judo techniques however aim to reduce that as much as possible.


----------



## frank raud (Oct 29, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> If your question is "Can I do anything with my size once they get a proper hold on me?" The answer is probably not most of the time.
> 
> And I doubt a 10 year old had extraordinarily powerful legs, you just learned how potent a good hold can be.


If he was lying flat on his back, I think the technique is usually called a reverse sankaku jime.One leg wrapped around head/neck/arm, tucked into back of knee of other leg and sitting down applies extra pressure on the leg lock. Physics and body mechanics make it work, not strength. If it was a normal triangle choke, it would be easier (not easy!) to break out of the legs.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 29, 2016)

oaktree said:


> I do not need to take the size and age of someone when I have my gun drawn on someone from 10 feet away pointed at his center mass with 38 slugs, I will take in consideration if he is on PCP but again emptying my rounds in him he can be 6'6 and 300 lbs he is going down



So if they're 52 pounds and 8 years old, that doesn't matter to you? If it doesn't, then you probably shouldn't own a gun.

And even if we limit it to adults... a very large person, shot with a low power round like the .38 you mentioned, firing slugs (which is a word usually used to refer to solid lead bullets, a type most suited to shooting paper targets) from a short barreled handgun may well not be seriously injured. I've seen weak rounds like those slowed so much by heavy winter clothing that they did no serious injury whatsoever.


----------



## Transk53 (Oct 30, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Age and size always matters.



Agree, the first thing you look at when sizing up. The outcome is different though!


----------



## drop bear (Oct 30, 2016)

You cant make yourself taller.  You can make yourself better. 

So the point of this sise vs technique thing is to focus on what you can fix.


----------



## Transk53 (Oct 30, 2016)

drop bear said:


> You cant make yourself taller.  You can make yourself better.
> 
> So the point of this sise vs technique thing is to focus on what you can fix.



Exactly Bear. Size just means more room to experiment to me. Within the confines of the opponent of course.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 30, 2016)

oaktree said:


> Does it really when I draw my gun on you?
> How about the 200lb who has never fought before vs the 150lb who is a black belt in several arts?  Size matters in some cases, weapons can be the equalizers, fighting dirty, having the mind set to kill your opponent, having experience in fighting all our factors.


----------



## punisher73 (Nov 7, 2016)

If size didn't matter, then there wouldn't be weight classes in combat sports.

Like others have said, it isn't the only factor but it IS a factor to be considered.  Whether martial artists want to admit it or not, strength is a technique when properly utilized.


----------



## Buka (Nov 8, 2016)

drop bear said:


>



If you're going to post a clip from the Trinity flicks, gotta' include this sucker.






As to the size question, as the old saying goes -
_
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that is the way to bet._


----------



## Mattattack (Nov 9, 2016)

Interesting convo.  To my mind size affects things on both a tactical and strategic level.

On a tactical level, size affects what techniques one should use (obviously), but it also affects conditioning.  We've all heard the smaller-quicker/bigger-slower cliche.  That should never be taken for granted.  Speed can't equalize things for a smaller person if that person doesn't condition that way,.  I'm not saying that people should only train to their strengths and ignore their weaknesses, but rather they should develop their strengths (speed, reach, strength, technique, precision, etc.) and not count on them to magically appear in paper-rock-scissors fashion (you are big and strong, so you must be slow.  I'm small so I am probably faster).

David had to practice his sling-thrower a great deal before he KO'd Goliath with it.

On a strategic level size affects general rules of engagement.  If I were a taller, more built dude I could probably end a lot of fights before they start just by being physically intimidating.  Since I'm about average I need to lean more on evasion and de-escalation.


----------



## pgsmith (Nov 9, 2016)

> Does age or size really matter?


  Yes


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Nov 9, 2016)

MartialMania said:


> Yes i wasnt fighting her, but still what shocked me was when she squeezed, i tried to get her legs loose and couldnt, i was pretty much powerless. that little girl had powerful legs , stronger than my arms at least.


As everyone has said, size and strength (and other physical attributes) do matter. They may not always be the deciding factor, but they are factors.

That said, superior strength is most helpful when you know how to use it. Once you are locked into someone's triangle choke (sankaku jime), trying to pry their legs free with your arms is pretty much the least effective way you could have attempted to use your greater size and strength. As you discovered, that method is likely to fail even against a much smaller opponent.


----------

