# Insights into Kenpo and Groundfighting



## Seig (Aug 19, 2003)

Ladies and Gentlemen:
There has been a LOT of discussion both pro and con concerning this topic. Some really want to discuss it and others want to avoid it. What we, the moderation team, are asking is that you keep the discussion about this topic restricted to this thread. We realize that on occasion that this will surface in other threads. Please make an effort to redirect all such discussions here.
Thank you,
Michael Seigel 
MT Moderator


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## MJS (Aug 19, 2003)

Yes, there certainly has been alot about this.  I realize that we all come from different backgrounds, so of course, our training is going to vary from person to person.  From what I have seen in Kenpo, it does offer tech against your standing grappling, as well as attempts at a tackle or takedown.  This is fine of course, if you are successful in stopping it.  If you are not, what is there to do?  I know people have said that they can modify a tech. on the ground.  Something to keep in mind though.  If someone is on you, they of  course are not just going to be sitting there, instead they are going to be punching at you or possibly going for a submission, which could turn into an armbreak, etc.

My question is:  I'd like some examples of what others do when they find themselves in this situation, and were the attempts at the Kenpo tech. effective?

Mike


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 19, 2003)

Kenpo techniques work great against untrained or unexpectant fighters either standing or on the ground.  If a fighter isn't prepared to defend against a groin kick or an eye strike, then a kenpoist will probably be able to successfully execute those strikes.  

It is against a trained fighter with good defenses either standing or on the ground where a Kenpoist or any other fighter runs into trouble.  Kenpoists can often succeed agianst trained stand-up fighters because Kenpo IS a highly effective stand-up style.  On the ground though, against a really good wrestler or Jiu Jitsu player, a Kenpoist would find himself unable to gain an advantageous position from which to strike.   

That being said, it behooves Kenpoists to learn basic grappling positions and escapes so that the Kenpoist can regain the stand-up, regain the top, or at least gain enough space from which to strike effectively.


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## MJS (Aug 19, 2003)

I agree!! 

Mike


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 19, 2003)

I thought you would agree!


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## twinkletoes (Aug 19, 2003)

I agree too   but you guys knew that already.  

And here we are.....just the 3 of us.  But we already know all this stuff......

~TT


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 19, 2003)

Hmmm...just the three of us....twidling my thumbs...tapping my pencil...OK, time to start trolling the other threads...


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## MJS (Aug 19, 2003)

Yeah, just the 3 of us--I noticed that too.  Its a shame that we can't get the people who claim to have made their Kenpo tech. work on the ground in here to give a little feedback.  I'm hoping that someone will jump in, but, as much as I hate to say it, I'm probably just dreaming.

Mike


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## Fastmover (Aug 19, 2003)

Come one!!!!!!!! I want to be apart too!!!!!! OPPS I dont count
because Ive learned my ground fighting outside of Kenpo!!!


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## MJS (Aug 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Come one!!!!!!!! I want to be apart too!!!!!! OPPS I dont count
> because Ive learned my ground fighting outside of Kenpo!!! *



LOL!! 

Mike


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 19, 2003)

Fastmover:  You can come too.  After all, their were four members of the three musketeers!


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## MJS (Aug 20, 2003)

I was really hoping to get some feedback on this from some of the die-hard Kenpo guys, but I guess they are not interested in the conversation.  Its a shame really, because there has been sooo much talk about this, with many voicing negative opinions.  It amazes me as how someone can talk so bad about something, but then can't at least offer any feedback! 

Mike


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## satans.barber (Aug 20, 2003)

Are we talking about self-defence or competition here? If it's competition then yeah, I can see how a kenpo guy/gal would struggle against a BJJ player for example, but in self-defence I think the chances of coming up against someone using that sort of training are pretty slim.

For a start, they're probably of a similar mentality, and realise that avoiding conflict is the best way to go I would think. I don't think the sorts of people who start fights in pubs or mug people are the sorts of people taking Jiu Jitsu of a Wednesday evening down the Church Hall....

...could be wrong though....

Ian.


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## MJS (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *Are we talking about self-defence or competition here? If it's competition then yeah, I can see how a kenpo guy/gal would struggle against a BJJ player for example, but in self-defence I think the chances of coming up against someone using that sort of training are pretty slim.
> 
> For a start, they're probably of a similar mentality, and realise that avoiding conflict is the best way to go I would think. I don't think the sorts of people who start fights in pubs or mug people are the sorts of people taking Jiu Jitsu of a Wednesday evening down the Church Hall....
> ...



As far as competition goes--if you are talking about NHB style fights, well, as you know, in the first few UFC events, the strikers didnt do that well agaisnt the grappler.  As time went on, you found the strikers working with grapplers to learn the secrets.  Now, when you see a striker who can grapple and a grappler that can strike, it comes down to who is better skilled.

As for SD.  Alot of the SD that are done in Kenpo, are done on a stationary opp.  with little or no resistance.  I find it hard to believe that someone who throws a punch is going to stand there and let you do 8 moves on him, and not try to fight back!!!!

You would think that the person taking the MA's, would not be the ones to start trouble, but then again, you never know--there are bad MA's out there too.  It doenst even have to be a matter of getting attacked by a grappler.  If, while you are attempting to defend yourself, you find yourself on the ground, the question is, are you going to know what to do to either:

A- Defend yourself on the ground or

B- know enough about the ground to get back to your feet.

Like I have said before, while Kenpo offers many defenses against a tackle or attempted takedown, I have yet to see any defense when they are actually on the ground.

Mike


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## satans.barber (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> As for SD.  Alot of the SD that are done in Kenpo, are done on a stationary opp.  with little or no resistance.  I find it hard to believe that someone who throws a punch is going to stand there and let you do 8 moves on him, and not try to fight back!!!!



I entirely agree with you, but I didn't think that was the issue here. What I read was, if a kenpo guy ends up on his back, he may be in trouble if his attacker has ground fighting experience - true, but, i was just saying I think the likelyhood of the attacker _having_ that experience is pretty slim.



> the question is, are you going to know what to do to either:
> 
> A- Defend yourself on the ground or
> 
> B- know enough about the ground to get back to your feet.



Probably not, no! Not having any mats at the school, I can't really practice this either without getting people hurt.



> Like I have said before, while Kenpo offers many defenses against a tackle or attempted takedown, I have yet to see any defense when they are actually on the ground.



'Encounter With Danger' and 'Rolling Thunder (AKKI)' are the only two that spring to mind.

Ian.


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## KenpoMatt (Aug 20, 2003)

I just got back from vacation, so I'm joining this thread a little late. I agree that kenpo kicks a$$ when you're on your feet. But, like OFK said, you better know at least some basic grappling just in case.

I'm still a kenpo newbie. But, I know for a fact that in a few years I will train in jj, bjj, judo or something similar. Why wouldn't you?

Anyway - that's my 2 cents.


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## Michael Billings (Aug 20, 2003)

Just for some perpective from one of those "More Traditional" Kenpo guys (as if!):  

We do not do tournament sparring in my school.  There is head contact (light) and body contact (moderate to heave) from day one.  There are frequent take downs or actual grappling from the stand-up to the ground.  I encourage my students to "fight out of it".  It is always an eye opener for them.  I do not teach BJJ, but have been exposed to it, Wally Jay's Small Circle Jui-Jitsu, taekwondo, shotokan, etc.  

I encourage LOGICAL escapes.  Someone is always trying to restrain or finish.  I do not focus my coaching on them, but on the person trying to escape.  This feedback is for both partners in case the tables get switched.

Did not want you not to have someone to disagree with.



OPPS, I forgot to mention the LOGICAL escapes are from the Kenpo system ... somewhere, usually pieces of extensions, where you see the shoulder dislocations, different types of takedowns, or buckles, throws, etc.


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## MJS (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *I entirely agree with you, but I didn't think that was the issue here. What I read was, if a kenpo guy ends up on his back, he may be in trouble if his attacker has ground fighting experience - true, but, i was just saying I think the likelyhood of the attacker having that experience is pretty slim.
> 
> 
> ...



To answer from top to bottom

Regarding having exp.  True, not everybody is a skilled grappler, but there is always the chance that even if the person doesnt have that exp.  just sitting on top of you with their body weight, while raining down punches, is something that you should be prepared for.  

As for not having mats.  While doing takedowns and throws on the ground is not the softest landing, I've grappled on the grass before.  

As for the SD tech.  2 tech. IMO does not offer that many options.

Mike


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 20, 2003)

2 things:

Michael Billings:  It sounds like you are taking a progressive, realistic approach to teachning and training.  I applaud you for staying true to Kenpo while thinking outside the box and challenging your students.

Satans Barber:  You will be surprised at how many people can grapple.  Anyone who has done high-school wrestling, Judo, or who is bigger and stronger can be a real threat if you both go to the ground.  While it is still rare to find a BJJ fighter in the street, it is not uncommon to find someone who can knock you down, sit on top, and start punching you in the face.  If you haven't tried it, you will be amazed at how hard it is to escape from a pin underneath a good high-school wrestler.


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## MJS (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Just for some perpective from one of those "More Traditional" Kenpo guys (as if!):
> 
> We do not do tournament sparring in my school.  There is head contact (light) and body contact (moderate to heave) from day one.  There are frequent take downs or actual grappling from the stand-up to the ground.  I encourage my students to "fight out of it".  It is always an eye opener for them.  I do not teach BJJ, but have been exposed to it, Wally Jay's Small Circle Jui-Jitsu, taekwondo, shotokan, etc.
> ...



Mr. Billings--Thanks for your reply!   It's good to hear from some of the other Kenpo guys out there!  I do recall that you have mentioned in the past that you have had some exp. in the grappling range.  Just out of curiosity, how much training have you had?  It is a good thing, like you mentioned, to have the students spar with some contact, and work the takedowns, like you mentioned.

You mention the escapes from the extensions.  While the ext. are usefull if something goes wrong with the tech. but how effective are they going to be on the ground?  I remember when I first started grappling.  My Inst. mounted me and told me to get out from his mount.  As hard as I tried, there was nothing that I could do.  When pushing on the legs, my hands were easily removed.  When reaching towards the midsection or face, I found myself in an armlock.  I've heard people say that they are able to do a tech. while on the ground, but I dont see how.  Can you explain further?

Mike


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## satans.barber (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *2 things:
> Satans Barber:  You will be surprised at how many people can grapple.  Anyone who has done high-school wrestling, Judo, or who is bigger and stronger can be a real threat if you both go to the ground.  While it is still rare to find a BJJ fighter in the street, it is not uncommon to find someone who can knock you down, sit on top, and start punching you in the face.  If you haven't tried it, you will be amazed at how hard it is to escape from a pin underneath a good high-school wrestler. *



They don't offer wrestling in British schools really, that I've ever seen, so I guess that's an environmental consideration - good point though!

I've done Judo myself, but it was a loooong time ago and I don't know how good I'd be now. I was pretty small too, only about 8 or 9 when I did it.

As for sitting on someone and battering them, that's nothing any kempoka can't do either though! This is one of the things that really annoys me when talking about self defence, people often talk about 'street fighting' as if the people you're up against have _got something that you haven't_; any martial artist has all that _and more_, which is why we should have the winning edge!

Ian.


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## MJS (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *2 things:
> 
> Michael Billings:  It sounds like you are taking a progressive, realistic approach to teachning and training.  I applaud you for staying true to Kenpo while thinking outside the box and challenging your students.
> ...



OFK--Once again, I agree! It is good to see other Kenpo guys doing this sort of training.  Regarding high school wrestlers.  I was at grappling class yesterday, and there was a guy there that was a wrestler.  I had the chance to roll with him for a 2min match.  While we started the match from out knees, I quickly found myself on the bottom.  He does have some exp. with BJJ, and I give him credit for attempting an ankle lock.  After I escaped that, during the course on the match, I found myself on the bottom, with him cross mounted on me.  He had excellent control on the ground.  A wrestler can definately be very tough.  If they add submissions to their skills that they already have, just imagine how much tougher they will be!

Mike


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## MJS (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> [
> As for sitting on someone and battering them, that's nothing any kempoka can't do either though! This is one of the things that really annoys me when talking about self defence, people often talk about 'street fighting' as if the people you're up against have _got something that you haven't_; any martial artist has all that _and more_, which is why we should have the winning edge!
> 
> Ian. [/B]



True, while sitting on someone and punching them does not take much skill, we are talking about the bottom person.  Its not as easy as you might think it is, trying to get someone off of your chest.

Mike


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## Kenpomachine (Aug 20, 2003)

We don't have many techniques starting FROM the ground on your back, but I can recall one from Larry Tatum.

We also do one drill in which we are paired and need to take the other's person belt. That's the only times when we train going to the ground already engaged with the opponent. It's different , but it's a lot of fun. I think the instructor has only done kenpo, he didn't take Judo classes or any other that I'm aware of.


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## MJS (Aug 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *We don't have many techniques starting FROM the ground on your back, but I can recall one from Larry Tatum.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Sigung86 (Aug 21, 2003)

Interesting.  I don't get here very often anymore.... I come in here and find the church and the choir sitting together and preaching to one another ... :asian: 

Anyone think of taking up a collection? :rofl:


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## J-kid (Aug 21, 2003)

You have to learn some grappling to counter someone grappling.

If not you will become victome to GnP (ground and pound) or even worse having some sort of joint or something else broken, might be even choked out.


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## MJS (Aug 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Interesting.  I don't get here very often anymore.... I come in here and find the church and the choir sitting together and preaching to one another ... :asian:
> 
> Anyone think of taking up a collection? :rofl: *



You're right!   It does seem that way.  But, the doors are open to anyone who would like to enter!:asian: 

Mike


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## MJS (Aug 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by J-kid _
> *You have to learn some grappling to counter someone grappling.
> 
> If not you will become victome to GnP (ground and pound) or even worse having some sort of joint or something else broken, might be even choked out. *



Very true!!! 

Mike


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## Kenpomachine (Aug 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by J-kid _
> *You have to learn some grappling to counter someone grappling. *



Play by the rules and you'll never develop and surprise nobody :


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## J-kid (Aug 21, 2003)

Kenpomachine what rules???


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## Kenpomachine (Aug 22, 2003)

Exactly!!!

Now, if you seriously ask what rules, I was refering to the rules usually used when fighting in a given martial art.


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## superdave (Aug 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *Exactly!!!
> 
> Now, if you seriously ask what rules, I was refering to the rules usually used when fighting in a given martial art. *




Not only that,  if you don't go looking for trouble, you shouldn't have to worry about fighting anyway.  The odds of getting into a fight without someone running their mouth, acting stupid because they are drunk,  or because someone bruised their fragile little ego are pretty slim.


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## redfang (Aug 25, 2003)

Several Kenpo schools in my area focus on grappling. Several of the instructors are competent shootfighting instructors. Where I train we practice shootfighting in a sport format as well as add ons to standard technigues.  Besides the shoot fighting several of our students have wrestling or JJ backgrounds and we all will teach from our strengths. Recently me and several others from my school attended a training session with Bart Vale, required periodically throughout the year to keep the shootfighting certification current and be able to offer it through the schools.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 25, 2003)

Redfang:  Is it safe to assume you study at a Tracy's Kenpo school?


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## redfang (Aug 29, 2003)

Yes, it is a Tracy's school.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 29, 2003)

Redfang:  Can you tell us more about the shootfighting training, techniques, how much time, drills, how you graft shootfighting to Kenpo, etc.  I'm very interested.


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## Bill Smith (Aug 31, 2003)

Yes it's true that you may need some form of grappling in order to counter and I agree with what everyone is saying. Even though Kenpo is to be a stand up striking art it is a 3D system. What you do standing can be executed on the ground. Think of the situation at hand, we are trained to get in and get out...no long battle. The same applies to the ground. I'm not talking about the competive circuit but real life. 

Try different situations, the positions when on the ground (offensive or defensive) and what you have in your Kenpo training. Also we have take-downs, see how you would use Kenpo in a defensive manner if you were counter by your attacker.

Just my two cents and trying to be helpful.

Yours in Kenpo,
Bill Smith


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## Ender (Aug 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Kenpo techniques work great against untrained or unexpectant fighters either standing or on the ground.  If a fighter isn't prepared to defend against a groin kick or an eye strike, then a kenpoist will probably be able to successfully execute those strikes.
> 
> It is against a trained fighter with good defenses either standing or on the ground where a Kenpoist or any other fighter runs into trouble.  Kenpoists can often succeed agianst trained stand-up fighters because Kenpo IS a highly effective stand-up style.  On the ground though, against a really good wrestler or Jiu Jitsu player, a Kenpoist would find himself unable to gain an advantageous position from which to strike.
> ...



yes I would agree with you for the most part. I wrestled a bit in high school, so I do have an understanding of the fundamentals.

Although I would say this, It doesn't take alot to take out a fighter of any style. I had a friend who was a grappler and wanted to show me how superior grappling was. so we squared off and I waited for him to make his move. He came in and I gave him a GENTLE two finger eye poke..*L...he immediately stopped, covered his eye and bent over in pain. The point is not to say kenpo is better but that it anyone can be vulnerable to a strike like that...or a groin shot...or a throat strike..etc.


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## redfang (Sep 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Redfang:  Can you tell us more about the shootfighting training, techniques, how much time, drills, how you graft shootfighting to Kenpo, etc.  I'm very interested. *


 There are really two parts to what we do. One is with add ons to existing kenpo techniques.  For example: Take the brown belt technique double blades, a pretty straight forward club defense with a double block and a chop. To this we would add an arm drag takedown that would transition into a T arm bar.  Thats how the add ons work, a lot of students just practice with the add ons.

For those that are interested in MMA or shootfight tournaments we practice differently.  We'll have sessions that just focus on striking or grappling and then those that blend the two.  For striking we run long kicking drills with partners. Round kick to the thigh, partner shin blocks, back and forth.  Then we'll add some hand strikes or maybe a takedown. Then towards the end we might just spar.

For grappling only, we run two man drills to work on transitions.  One might go like this: A throws a kick, B comes in under it and does a single leg takedown, A goes to guard B passes the gaurd and goes to a calf lock, A scoots up and grabs opponents ankles and reverses in an arm bar etc.  Until both parties might have gone through ten or so movements.  

We we'll have two men grapple and one work just defense and one offense.  We'll have both go all out.  We'll add striking with about 70% strength.  It's pretty comprehensive.  Shootfighting makes use of a great number of submissions as well as a lot of standard wrestling takedowns, double leg, single leg, usual stuff.


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## twinkletoes (Sep 1, 2003)

Now I'm *really* interested in this process.  Not to take the conversation away from Groundfighting, but when you spar with the kenpo/shootfighting, how "kenpo" is the standup?  For example, do you use blocks like kenpo, or boxing style covers?  And what kind of rules are employed?

~TT


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## chaosomega (Sep 2, 2003)

I'd also like to know if Kenpo has any good takedowns in and of itself (not taken from wrestling or other sources)....


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## Zoran (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by superdave _
> *Not only that,  if you don't go looking for trouble, you shouldn't have to worry about fighting anyway.  The odds of getting into a fight without someone running their mouth, acting stupid because they are drunk,  or because someone bruised their fragile little ego are pretty slim. *



Unless you have a job that includes dealing with those kinds of situations.  

The only input I would make is that we should train in all ranges of combat. That includes being on the ground if it happens. To the comment earlier that the chance of fighting a trained grappler is slim. So is fighting someone with a gun pointed at your head. We still train for that.

:asian:


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## twinkletoes (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chaosomega _
> *I'd also like to know if Kenpo has any good takedowns in and of itself (not taken from wrestling or other sources).... *



This is one I can answer (at least for our curriculum):

4 foot sweeps
1 leg sweep (judo's o soto gari)
2 hip throws
2 shoulder throws (one back to back, one back to front)

Add to that a couple of wristlock takedowns, and that is our throwing/takedown component (for our system, at least).

~TT


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Sep 2, 2003)

Don't forget the funky single-leg take down from Dance of Death!


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## Ceicei (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *
> ...it behooves Kenpoists to learn basic grappling positions and escapes so that the Kenpoist can regain the stand-up, regain the top, or at least gain enough space from which to strike effectively. *



I was observing my sons the other day with their kenpo class.  They are purple and blue belts.   They've been doing some groundwork techniques (so-called badger moves).  They've been doing this since yellow belt level.  

I haven't seen any yet in my adult kenpo class (currently purple belt--my third try to that level after a long "vacation").

I asked my instructor about this difference between the jr and adult classes and wondered what he thought of cross-training.

This is basically what he said:  

Kenpo does a lot of upright striking techniques as the basis.  It is not until around brown/black belt level that groundwork is introduced and is part of the belt requirements.  

Judo, is pretty much similar but in reverse.  A lot of groundwork and grappling as the basis.  By higher level belts, they introduce more striking.

He didn't discourage cross-training.  Basically, he seemed to imply that groundwork will come with kenpo--there is no hurry.  He did point out Ed Parker has trained with other styles as well to round out his knowledge and instruction.

I don't know enough about Judo to comment, but does Kenpo then focus on more groundwork when moving up the ranks?

- Ceicei


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## MJS (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> [ To the comment earlier that the chance of fighting a trained grappler is slim. So is fighting someone with a gun pointed at your head. We still train for that.
> 
> :asian: [/B]



Good Point!!

Mike


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Sep 2, 2003)

Ceicei:  

No.  Kenpo does not focus more on groundfighting as you go up the ranks.  And that is why us groundfighting advocates have been ghettoed in this thread.

And, no there are no secret Judo strikes reserved for later in training.


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## MJS (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Ceicei:
> 
> No.  Kenpo does not focus more on groundfighting as you go up the ranks.  And that is why us groundfighting advocates have been ghettoed in this thread.
> ...



Right On!!!  As usual OFK, I agree!!! 

Mike


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## Ceicei (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Ceicei:
> 
> No.  Kenpo does not focus more on groundfighting as you go up the ranks.  And that is why us groundfighting advocates have been ghettoed in this thread.
> ...



I won't argue with you there as you understand your system.

What I do see from my sons in their Jr. Kenpo classes they are taught techniques how to deal on the ground with an attacker sitting on them doing a chokehold, lapelhold(s), headhold, head punches, and leaning over with hands on ground next to the head.  There are some with arm/wrist locks too and how to get out of them.

These techniques follow the kenpo approach of having certain strikes/parries as well as a few grappling moves.  They have names that are given for moves corresponding to physical anatomy in similar format as standing techniques do.

My instructor says that these techniques will be taught to the higher level adults.  Our brown/black belts do know them.

If, from what you say, Kenpo does not have these in as part of the standard curriculum, then it looks like my instructor probably added a few of his own in to make his instruction more rounded.

I do know that most of our BB instructors at the school have training in other styles; some have BB in these styles too.  Between all of these instructors, I believe the following styles are represented:  Judo, Aikido, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, and Kwon Shu.

Utah does have the unenviable label of being among some states with high sexual assault/rape statistics.

- Ceicei


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Sep 2, 2003)

Ceicei:  Good news!  Sounds like you are at a progressive school.  Standard EPAK Kenpo curriculum does not include these techniques you've described.  I'm glad your school has picked them up.


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## twinkletoes (Sep 2, 2003)

Above the rank of shodan, judo schools often teach striking, but alas, they only do it in kata form.  They do not teach striking in any kind of live, randori-like format, which is exactly the training that makes Judo effective.  

The irony is thick.

~TT


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## Ceicei (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *Above the rank of shodan, judo schools often teach striking, but alas, they only do it in kata form.  They do not teach striking in any kind of live, randori-like format, which is exactly the training that makes Judo effective.
> 
> The irony is thick.
> ...



So my instructor was correct - there is some striking in high level Judo.  

How come Judo doesn't incorporate strikes with randori?  Is this for the sake of tradition?


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## Ceicei (Sep 2, 2003)

I watched tonight a play match between a Kenpo yellow belt who was a high school/college wrestler with one of our black belt instructors (he has a BB in both Judo and Kenpo).  Our black belt used his Judo for this match.

Unfortunately, he lost the match.

Apparently wrestling has several good grappling moves that made it difficult even with Judo to get out.

Any thoughts? 

- Ceicei


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## pete (Sep 3, 2003)

is a technique we learn at green that brings you to the ground.  It teaches yielding and adhering using a vertical axis, rather than the more apparent horizontal or diagonal axis found in many more Kenpo Techniques. 

Is this technique "standard EPAK"?


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## twinkletoes (Sep 3, 2003)

Ceicei-

Judo's rules were developed by removing jujutsu's "more dangerous techniques" so that it could be practiced "live" regularly.  That's why it only includes locks against the elbow and chokes, no strikes, and rules heavily against throwing your opponent (or yourself) headfirst towards the mat.  (BJJ and MMA and other grappling styles now add many of these things back in.)

As far as wrestling vs. judo goes, we are leaving the realm of technique and venturing into new waters here.

For starters, wrestling is not nearly so technique-driven as Judo.  Instead, it stresses attribute development (speed, strength, explosiveness) in order to overcome the opponent's attributes.  Now it does have some good techniques, and the emphasis on technique will vary from wrestler to wrestler, but overall it is far more focused on these physical developments.  

You say the judoka "lost the match."  What were the conditions?  Did he lose via pin?  

~TT


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## satans.barber (Sep 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pete _
> *is a technique we learn at green that brings you to the ground.  It teaches yielding and adhering using a vertical axis, rather than the more apparent horizontal or diagonal axis found in many more Kenpo Techniques.
> 
> Is this technique "standard EPAK"? *



We have it, but we're not standard so I don't know!

'yielding in a vertical axis', hmm, when I teach it I say 'you're getting pushed over'! lol!

Ian.


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## Ceicei (Sep 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *Ceicei-
> 
> Judo's rules were developed by removing jujutsu's "more dangerous techniques" so that it could be practiced "live" regularly.  That's why it only includes locks against the elbow and chokes, no strikes, and rules heavily against throwing your opponent (or yourself) headfirst towards the mat.  (BJJ and MMA and other grappling styles now add many of these things back in.)
> ...



Well, I won't be able to do a play-by-play report of this match.  Basically, it started out pretty evenly with arm/leg/wrist locks.  After a while, the wrestler then picked the judoka up with a body lift and turned him around onto his back then laid down crosswise over the judoka's body.  He sort of rolled up over the chest to force the judoka's shoulders to touch the mat.  During this time, the judoka was trying hard to stay on his side instead of his back and attempting an arm lock to twist him off.  It was the pin that ended the match.

- Ceicei


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## twinkletoes (Sep 3, 2003)

Ah, that was exactly what i was wondering.

1)  It sounds like the wrestler was able to pull it off (especially the lift) mostly due to strength, rather than technique per se.

2)  It went to pin.  That's what I was really wondering.  That's what wrestlers do:  they pin.  That's how a wrestling match is ended.

Judoka can win by throws, pins, or submissions.  It broadens their tactics.  BJJ guys usually go to submission.  MMA guys usually add strikes to the mix.

The question of style vs. style always comes back to "What rules are we using?"

~TT


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## Ceicei (Sep 3, 2003)

As far as groundfighting goes, what is the difference between pins and submissions?

- Ceicei


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Sep 3, 2003)

Ceicei:

A pin is where you are on your back with your shoulders on the mat/ground.  A good pin is one where you cannot easily move or strike.

A submission is a choke or joint lock where if you don't tap or give-up you will break a limb or get choked out.


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## redfang (Sep 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *Now I'm really interested in this process.  Not to take the conversation away from Groundfighting, but when you spar with the kenpo/shootfighting, how "kenpo" is the standup?  For example, do you use blocks like kenpo, or boxing style covers?  And what kind of rules are employed?
> The standup is not very kenpo, really.  Many of the kicks we use with shoot fighting are more Muay Thai style kicks.  Evasion tends to be a better defense than blocks, though some standard inward outward blocks are sometimes used and double as strikes. Boxing like covers are common.  For sport training, a variety of rules might be employed.  If someone has a fight coming up they tend to want to practice in the rules they will be employing. Shootfighting rules allow for striking while standing, but not while on the ground.  Some of us fight NHB and will practice with strikes on the ground.  Sometimes though someone will just want to focus on one aspect, grappling or striking and we'll work on that with them.
> ~TT *


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## redfang (Sep 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by redfang _


 Hmm, that hasn't happened to me before.  Some of that above quote was my reply.


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## twinkletoes (Sep 3, 2003)

No sweat, I can tell what was my question and what's your answer.

I find it *very* interesting what you've answered, since that seems to be pretty standard among MMA/NHB/Vale Tudo approaches.  Not to beat a dead horse, but it seems interesting that even Kenpo guys who also shootfight don't employ their Kenpo-type approaches when it comes to fighting that allows all ranges.

Do you guys use any kind of kenpo mindset, tactics, or methodology when you get into that kind of sparring?  Does it all go out the window?  Do you all do both?

Thanks for the answers,

~TT


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## redfang (Sep 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *No sweat, I can tell what was my question and what's your answer.
> 
> I find it *very* interesting what you've answered, since that seems to be pretty standard among MMA/NHB/Vale Tudo approaches.  Not to beat a dead horse, but it seems interesting that even Kenpo guys who also shootfight don't employ their Kenpo-type approaches when it comes to fighting that allows all ranges.
> ...


 Now, Keep in mind that when we do the shootfighting add ons its all off of standard kenpo techniques.  However, when we practice for sport much of what typifies kenpo is illegal. Example, there are no eyes strikes, strikes to the throat, etc.  So the fact that we don't use a lot of this in sport fighting, I don't believe is a put down to kenpo. I wouldn't study the art if I didn't think it was worthwhile.  It really just demonstrates the difference between sport combat and real self defense where maiming or killing might be necessary.


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