# Traditional katas



## marlon (Apr 16, 2006)

Has anyone here in shaolin kempo or other kempos including kajukenbo,learned any traditional forms aside from the pinans/heians and have you found it beneficial to your kempo or detrimental...and why did you seek out such forms?

I first leanred Naihanchi b/c it is part of our history  but now i am learning a few others.  There are powerful concpts in them that are in SK/ SKK onl;y not always well taught or explained.  I learned wankan and now am learning wanshu then chinto..that will be all for now but who knows...There is still sooooo much material in shaolin kempo that time to train properly can limit ones choices.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## KenpoDave (Apr 16, 2006)

marlon said:
			
		

> Has anyone here in shaolin kempo or other kempos including kajukenbo,learned any traditional forms aside from the pinans/heians and have you found it beneficial to your kempo or detrimental...and why did you seek out such forms?
> 
> I first leanred Naihanchi b/c it is part of our history but now i am learning a few others. There are powerful concpts in them that are in SK/ SKK onl;y not always well taught or explained. I learned wankan and now am learning wanshu then chinto..that will be all for now but who knows...There is still sooooo much material in shaolin kempo that time to train properly can limit ones choices.
> 
> ...


 
I don't do shaolin kempo, but have learned a variety of forms that are not a part of my kenpo curriculum.  I have found them all to be beneficial in some way, though not all of them have been necessary, if that makes sense.

In other words, the perspective that they offer often shows me something about my kenpo that was already there, I just needed to look at it from a different point of view.


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## bushidomartialarts (Apr 16, 2006)

i agree.  the more kata the better.  some help directly with your kenpo, others offer different perspectives which help you better understand kenpo and the greater context of martial arts in general.

i'm coming up on yondan in a year or so, and one of my requirements is to be able to run 50 forms.  to that end i've learned/am still learning kata from 3 branches of kenpo, and 4 or 5 outside arts.  it's really opened my eyes.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 16, 2006)

"Sometimes less is more."

When it comes to kata, this is something my teacher says.  In TSD we have a number of classical kata and _each one of them are nearly complete fighting systems_.  Naihanchi, chinto, bassai, when properly understood, take *years* to master.  How much time would you spend if it is only one of 50 or one of 100 kata that you know?

Just food for thought...

upnorthkyosa


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## HKphooey (Apr 16, 2006)

I feel katas are an essential part of training (though not always the most fun ).  Usually when someone says they are a waste of time, they do not understand all the applications in the kata.


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## stickarts (Apr 16, 2006)

I have found the pinans to be a great way to teach students to begin to coordinate their hands and feet and learn how to channel power through their body.
Although I think their needs to be lots of other training in addition to kata, I have found kata to be very helpful to the students develeopment and a great way to train when they don't have a partner to train with!


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## marlon (Apr 17, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> "Sometimes less is more."
> 
> When it comes to kata, this is something my teacher says. In TSD we have a number of classical kata and _each one of them are nearly complete fighting systems_. Naihanchi, chinto, bassai, when properly understood, take *years* to master. How much time would you spend if it is only one of 50 or one of 100 kata that you know?
> 
> ...


 
Shaolin kempo is my one kata.  The perspectives that are there that i mif\ght have missed are presented to be through some of these other kata.  I agree that each is a different fighting system when properly understood and this is the concept behind shaolin kempo...to blend different fighting styles into one continous flow adaptable to body; strengths; weaknesses; and most importantly to differing situations.
The time spent is a lifetime of stgudy, practice and sharing.  This is my path.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## bujuts (Apr 17, 2006)

I have a fair number of traditional kata under my belt (the Pinans / Heians, Bassai, Kusanku Dai, Wansu, Jutte, Sanchin, Seisan...the list goes on), most of which I could not fogret if I tried because they are so beaten into my muscles.  However, I honestly do not work them unless a friend of mine still studying my old system seeks help on one of them.

The reason is, primarily, a conflict of basics.  I train kenpo now.  The chambering of the hand at the hips, lack of connective matrix between all of the motions, the stances well in excess of natural depth, and other factors are items which I believe are contrary to the motions I have been engraining into my body for the past six years while in AK.  I suppose my greatest argument against them is the disparity in motion between training and application.  In terms of an available body of knowledge, there have been times where I've pulled techniques from the old kata and "kenpo-ized" them, but by and large my studies are focused on kenpo.

On the flip side, my classical training provided me with an incredibly strong base.  I am ever thankful for it.

Just one perspective, 


Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF


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## Rick Wade (Apr 17, 2006)

While I totally agree with Mr. Brown.  I have a good friend that is darn close to being at least in my eyes a master of Okinawan Kenpo and Kobudo and he is in the process of teaching me their Katas.  He is amazed at how I apply my Bunkai (-2sp) and how realistic it is compared to the traditionalist ways of thinking.  If you get stuck and just blindly accept the bukai that is taught you could fall into the trap of not thinking for yourself.

V/R

Rick


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## DavidCC (Apr 17, 2006)

At my SK school we are learning Sanchin primarily as a qi development exercise.


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## HKphooey (Apr 17, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> On the flip side, my classical training provided me with an incredibly strong base. I am ever thankful for it.


 
You hit the nail on the head... It provided you a very strong base!  

I look at katas like a horse stance.  We all learrned them, many say they are not practical, but yet the rest of our movements/techniques would not be as strong with out them.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 17, 2006)

I have spent the last eight years or so studying Chinese arts, which in my case have been taught primarily thru the medium of Forms.  So I have learned a number of Chinese forms, from Tibetan White Crane, Lohan, Wing Chung, and Tai Chi.  I find them to be very useful, and help a lot with my fluidity.  

The thing that I think my kenpo gave me is the ability to look at movement and interpret useage.  Training long lists of Self Defense techniques gives one a good perspective on being able to do this.

When my Wing Chun sifu was teaching the Bil Jee set, he confessed at one point that he did not know what one of the movements was used for.  I was able to immediately suggest a couple of useful interpretations.

OVerall, I think this has been a good addition to my kenpo.  It has given me a very different perspective on things.  Many times, I learned something from Wing Chun or White Crane, and I recognized a similar movement from Kenpo.  But the way it was approached in the Chinese arts made more sense to me, and I felt the light bulb go on when the application suddenly came clear, on something that I had doubts about previously.


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## jgrimm01 (Apr 17, 2006)

Honestly I think a major facet of all styles, regardless of origin, is body movement/body shifting. Any style will be ineffective if body shifting isn't practiced and honed to a sharp skill. Katas in any style, regardless of your own personal affiliations, will help develop your body shifting and mechanics. Because of this, any kata I can be exposed to and train with is going to help me develop and learn just that many more applications I can use to my advantage.

Just my .02...

J


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## bujuts (Apr 17, 2006)

jgrimm01 said:
			
		

> Honestly I think a major facet of all styles, regardless of origin, is body movement/body shifting...


 
Are you referring to Tai Sabaki and Ashi Sabaki, by chance?  I don't know how else they're called.



			
				jgrimm01 said:
			
		

> Any style will be ineffective if body shifting isn't practiced and honed to a sharp skill.


 
That is quite a generalized statement.  Can you elaborate?

Thanks in advance,

Steven Brown
UKF


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## jgrimm01 (Apr 17, 2006)

I'm not familiar with the terms Tai Sabaki or Ashi Sabaki, but I was speaking generally, yes. Meaning that you can learn to strike/block/attack/defend until the cows come home, but if you're not able to shift your body properly or have proper body mechanics your success rate will not be very high. Katas from any style will help develop proper body shifting and transitions between techniques, if practiced properly.


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## bujuts (Apr 17, 2006)

jgrimm01 said:
			
		

> I'm not familiar with the terms Tai Sabaki or Ashi Sabaki, but I was speaking generally, yes. Meaning that you can learn to strike/block/attack/defend until the cows come home, but if you're not able to shift your body properly or have proper body mechanics your success rate will not be very high. Katas from any style will help develop proper body shifting and transitions between techniques, if practiced properly.


 
Fair enough.  Its comes down to the basics, is essentially where you're coming from, I gather.  I agree 100%.  I think tts safe to say that the same education may be gained without kata if the system is constructed in such a fashion, but by no means are they not a welath of information and valuable means of training basics.

Thanks for the reply.

Steven Brown
UKF


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## Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

In Kenpo, as I've heard it (lol), the katas were only origianlly designed up to the end of long two. However, due to students asking for more once they thought that they had mastered a particular form the rest were included into the system.

I may be wrong, but werent a lot of the forms (long five, six) originally brought into the system after students of Mr Parker had developed them for gradings? Like I say I may have misheard that.

Also, the weapons forms (long seven and long eight) were developed specifically for competition. Style over substance? 
I'm not attacking or defending just offering a point of view!


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## Hand Sword (Apr 18, 2006)

Originally, there were none. Just self defense techniques.


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## melj7077 (May 19, 2006)

I was taught that forms short 1, long 1, short 2, long 2 were designed to teach basics.  Short 3, Long 3, and 4 were designed to cover the major forms of attack ( 3 for contact attacks and 4 for impact type attacks).  5 and 6 were brought in later to fill gaps not taught in the other forms (5 specifically taught takedowns while 6 specifically taught about weapon defense)

I have heard too many stories about who developed the forms to really care anymore.  The organization and purpose of each form makes sense and is logical in my opinion so I must associate it with Mr. Parker.

I do remember being told that the original form 7 was a special form given only to those who had earned it.  Very few had it.  What is out there as form 7 and 8 as far as I know were around when Mr. parker was alive but as to who did them I do not know.  Again, I must defer to an opinion that Mr. Parker had a hand in them.

When I decided to return to the more traditional katas I appraoched the choice of forms with the organizational ideas that the Parker forms adhered to.  I decided on Taikyoku, Pinans 1-5, Bassai Dai, Naihanchi, Rohai and Saifa.  To me they do the same things that Mr. Parker tried to do with his forms.


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## Brian Jones (May 20, 2006)

Ask any of Parker's first generation students (except maybe the Tracy Bros.) and they will tell you Mr. Parker designed the forms. I do know 7 was originally the knife form.  But a combination of new intrest by students in the stick, plus the inherent danger of the knife caused Mr. Parker to make 7 the "club" or double stick form and 8 the knife form.

Brian Jones


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