# I Need Help With A Bo Staff



## Dylan Walker (Apr 7, 2020)

Hi everyone! I am 17 and want to learn to fight with a bo staff. Unfortunately, I learned all that I could from youtube and it is not that interactive. I was wondering if there would be willing to Facetime and teach me a few things or if anyone knows someone that could help. I can't enroll at karate at this time, so this is my best bet.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 8, 2020)

Dylan Walker said:


> Hi everyone! I am 17 and want to learn to fight with a bo staff. Unfortunately, I learned all that I could from youtube and it is not that interactive. I was wondering if there would be willing to Facetime and teach me a few things or if anyone knows someone that could help. I can't enroll at karate at this time, so this is my best bet.


It's going to be very tough to learn how to fight without a partner that you can actually spar with.


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## Dylan Walker (Apr 8, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> It's going to be very tough to learn how to fight without a partner that you can actually spar with.


I will keep that in mind. Maybe I can convince one of my family to do it. Until then, I have been focusing on learning strikes and blocks.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 8, 2020)

Hi Dylan, I appreciate your enthusiasm but the best advice I can give you is to wait until you are able to find a competent teacher.  This is a hands-on process and the best way to do it is with a teacher in a face-to-face situation.  There is a serious chance of injury in what you are contemplating, and a high likelihood of developing poor habits.  A teacher simply cannot make the corrections that you will need, via video.

A question for you: do you have any martial training so far?  Most teachers who are worth their salt are unlikely to teach weaponry to someone with no martial training already.  They would probably insist that you train at least the fundamentals of their martial system for a while first, before you are taught weaponry.

My i also ask, in what area do you live?


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## Dylan Walker (Apr 8, 2020)

I live in vancouver washington and I have a litte martial art practice but not much. I am still pretty much a beginner


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## Flying Crane (Apr 8, 2020)

Dylan Walker said:


> I live in vancouver washington and I have a litte martial art practice but not much. I am still pretty much a beginner


Alright, thanks for the background info.

There are some threads going on right now discussing video learning while this whole Covid-19 problem is with us and we cannot physically get together.  I think in these discussions people are really aiming at keeping their students together to keep practicing.  These are people who have at least some experience and it’s known how well they can otherwise follow along with the workouts.

I think it is an entirely different issue when you’ve got a beginner who is trying to learn something new, and especially when it is something more challenging and possibly dangerous to yourself, like a weapon.  Video instruction is simply not a good medium for trying to learn that.

This is probably not the advice you were hoping to get, so I understand if this is frustrating.  But this is honest advice, I’m not going to encourage you to do something that I honestly believe is not a good idea.  Some folks will disagree with me, but this is the advice I always give to people who are thinking of learning via video instruction, whether that is live streaming or watching recorded videos.  Some things, including martial arts, need to be done in a physically interactive environment.  It just does not work well otherwise.

I suggest you work in your fitness and be patient until your situation changes and you can find a good teacher to work with. If you ever end up in my region, the Sacramento, California Area, get in touch and maybe we can work together.  My system has some pretty interesting staff material, along with some other interesting stuff.  It is a solid system.  You might like it.


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## Dylan Walker (Apr 8, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Alright, thanks for the background info.
> 
> There are some threads going on right now discussing video learning while this whole Covid-19 problem is with us and we cannot physically get together.  I think in these discussions people are really aiming at keeping their students together to keep practicing.  These are people who have at least some experience and it’s known how well they can otherwise follow along with the workouts.
> 
> ...


Ok! Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate it!


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## dunc (Apr 9, 2020)

In my experience learning martial arts requires a combination of hands on instruction, self study/discovery and practical experience

Some aspects of martial arts training are more suited to distance learning / self study than others. And I feel that weapons training (especially longer ones) falls into this category

There is no use sparring with a weapon if you haven’t got the knack of how to handle it, drilled the core positions, developed the strength to use it etc etc

So I’m currently recommending my students to practice their staff techniques. I’m putting out some basic patterns and instructionals on the 3ft, 4ft and 6ft staff and feel that if people work on these then they’ll develop a good foundation to work from once classes begin again

Dylan - Whilst I’m not offering to provide virtual classes I hope this perspective helps somewhat


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## yak sao (Apr 9, 2020)

You mentioned you have previous experience.
What specifically is your experience?

Stances, basic punches, basic kicking?
Was it a particular style you had practiced?

Perhaps someone here could pick up with that via video, although I agree, not the ideal way of learning.

Spend some time developing/ redeveloping your empty hand skills with the idea of working towards the staff in the future.

Someone here may even be in your area or know someone in your area that you could get with when society is back to normal.


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## donald1 (Apr 10, 2020)

I have a really hard time imagining you could learn staff from facetime. Theres a lot of things they can tell you ,or show you. However there are a some little details a novice would easily overlook, and he/she might forget to point out some of those details. Though to be fair it's really easy to overwhelm new students with that kind of information. Wish you good luck!


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 11, 2020)

Dylan Walker said:


> Hi everyone! I am 17 and want to learn to fight with a bo staff. Unfortunately, I learned all that I could from youtube and it is not that interactive. I was wondering if there would be willing to Facetime and teach me a few things or if anyone knows someone that could help. I can't enroll at karate at this time, so this is my best bet.


I would be willing to give it a try depending on what type of staff that you have.   If you have a straight non-tapered bow staff then I can teach you a few things and some concepts.  Learning how to fight requires to have a partner.  The staff techniques that you would learn are from Chinese martial arts and not Japanese martial arts.  And the training process will be slow.  So if you have the patience of that then I can teach you. The concepts, the technique, and how it's used.   Beyond that, it's up to you to do the hard work.  At least this way you half almost half way to what you need to know.

You would get only 2 techniques at a time to train.  And you'll get the other 2 when you are able to get the first 2 down.   Remember you are asking to be trained in function and this is the path that you would have to take with me.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 11, 2020)

donald1 said:


> I have a really hard time imagining you could learn staff from facetime.


Even for those who have in person staff training still won't be able to use a staff for actual fighting.  Very few people train it beyond concepts, form, and performance.  Learning how to actually use the staff requires 2 skilled partners who can control the staff enough to make practice safe enough.   He's a long way from any of that.  For now some basics, conditioning, strength building, and techniques is what's needed and face time should good enough to get some of those things in.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 13, 2020)

It’s important to also define what you want to be able to use the staff for. Fighting _with_ a staff doesn’t always mean fighting _against_ a staff. My students learn to control a stick as an improvised weapon, ranging from 20” to 6’. They practice various situations, none of which necessarily includes fighting against a skilled staff-user. That’s a while other level of skill, just to get to safe practice, as @JowGaWolf said. 

If you just want to have fun with a staff (my original purpose was this), then don’t worry about learning to fight with it - just find a style that interests you and learn what you can (and have the interest to put effort into) from video.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 13, 2020)

My opinion, a good staff is a fight-ender.  If you learn good, solid fundamentals, then you don’t need anything fancy and it can dominate a lot of of other weapons.  Chinese martial arts often use white waxwood for a staff, which is good and has certain qualities that can be built into the method itself.  I am of the belief that different cultures used the materials that were available to them where they lived, so being that I live in North America, I’ve been using hickory.  It is a bone-cruncher and I fully believe you can literally beat a human into the pavement with one.  It is absolutely lethal.

It’s also difficult to spar with while maintaining what the weapon is all about.  If you use those bone-smashing techniques and methods, you can’t really spar with it.  You would smash the other guy’s weapon out of his hands and then you smash him into a meat-bag with bits of bone splinters mixed in. If you use more elaborate technique and light staffs, you are not really practicing the real capabilities of the weapon.  Good staff method should end the conflict decisively and quickly.  This stuff comes from a historical era when people needed to defend their actual lives and needed to act immediately.

I think people expect to be able to apply sparring to every aspect of training, including weapons.  It often just is not realistic to do so without a high risk of injury or undermining the weapon itself.  So practice the fundamentals and the form and drills with a partner if available (not the same as free sparring), and application ought to become rather obvious.


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 13, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> t’s also difficult to spar with while maintaining what the weapon is all about. If you use those bone-smashing techniques and methods, you can’t really spar with it.


Sparring with a bo is possible with standard TKD body pads and lacrosse gloves and mask.  Kendo equipment could work too.  As with most weapons, as in empty hand sparring, 100% power is not recommended, but with pads, 50% power will do the trick, since the beauty of weapons is that is amplifies your own power.


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 13, 2020)

Dylan Walker said:


> Hi everyone! I am 17 and want to learn to fight with a bo staff. Unfortunately, I learned all that I could from youtube and it is not that interactive. I was wondering if there would be willing to Facetime and teach me a few things or if anyone knows someone that could help..



NO.

You have no foundation, no sense of the art, learning "a few things" is not the way to approach it, questionable motives (at 17, probably just want to be cool - I understand), and watching will not teach the subtleties.  Facetime could be helpful IF you had a few months of proper in-person training.

I think, for your purposes, just go out in your back yard, swing a big stick around, imagine you are the Monkey King, and have fun.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 13, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> It’s important to also define what you want to be able to use the staff for. Fighting _with_ a staff doesn’t always mean fighting _against_ a staff. My students learn to control a stick as an improvised weapon, ranging from 20” to 6’. They practice various situations, none of which necessarily includes fighting against a skilled staff-user. That’s a while other level of skill, just to get to safe practice, as @JowGaWolf said.
> 
> If you just want to have fun with a staff (my original purpose was this), then don’t worry about learning to fight with it - just find a style that interests you and learn what you can (and have the interest to put effort into) from video.


I think focusing on just learning first is probably more important than trying to focus on fighting first.  Most people I've talked to think that functional staff training is boring.  And to be honest it is., but the purpose isn't to be fun.  It's to be functional, so it's a different mindset and purpose when training.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 13, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> 50% power will do the trick, since the beauty of weapons is that is amplifies your own power.


I barely punch people at 50% power.  I don't think I could hit someone at 50% power with a staff, even if they had protective padding on.  If I was going to even try to hit a person with a staff then I would need some sort of practice staff that's good for practice and horrible for actual fighting.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 13, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think focusing on just learning first is probably more important than trying to focus on fighting first.  Most people I've talked to think that functional staff training is boring.  And to be honest it is., but the purpose isn't to be fun.  It's to be functional, so it's a different mindset and purpose when training.


Agreed. I guess my point was that if you're not trying to create functional skill (just learning for enjoyment) then any bad habits that might develop may be inconsequential.


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 13, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. I guess my point was that if you're not trying to create functional skill (just learning for enjoyment) then any bad habits that might develop may be inconsequential.


I guess I'm coming from a different direction - wielding a bo as a martial art weapon (kobudo) and not as a toy.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 13, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> I guess I'm coming from a different direction - wielding a bo as a martial art weapon (kobudo) and not as a toy.


Agreed. I'm probably somewhere between you and what I'm talking about. Your background probably leads to a more formal and systematic view of the weapon. I see it as part of a continuum of sticks, and tend to deal only with rudimentary technique, which I expect you cover but also have the background to go beyond. So I'm probably less systematic than you, though we both view the weapon seriously.

And some folks (what I was talking about in recent posts) just want to learn a staff because it's kinda cool (and it is). They may not have a functional purpose, just want to learn a new skill. In that case, bad habits (things that would interfere with developing fighting skill with the staff) aren't really an issue unless they create some safety risk.

I'm trying to learn to consider folks who learn for these kinds of purposes. I've learned (mostly through MartialTalk discussions) that there are some pretty committed people who really just want to learn something new, and aren't focused on fighting skill. I used to look down my nose at that kind of pursuit, but that's just me projecting my "should" on them.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 14, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> They may not have a functional purpose, just want to learn a new skill. In that case, bad habits (things that would interfere with developing fighting skill with the staff) aren't really an issue unless they create some safety risk.


 If it's like most in martial arts.  They like the idea of being able to fight using martial arts, but really don't want to put in the required training and punishment that's needed for being functional with martial arts.  Things like getting hit in the face, punched in the stomach, and getting bruised for the sake of learning how to use martial arts doesn't appeal to them.   It's gets even worse if someone takes a class and doesn't enjoy it or is bored with it.  The easiest way to determine this, is first see if the person actually likes training with the staff. If that person likes it then there may be an opportunity to train function.  If they don't like it off the back then you know as a teacher you can just stop the quest right there and not waste time.

I offered to train and haven't gotten a response yet so being functional may not be what the OP originally thought it was.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 14, 2020)

@isshinryuronin 
about the 50% power.  This is why I say I can't imagine hitting someone at 50% with the staffs that I used.  The staff on the left is what my old kung fu brothers nicknamed Tree.  I took text to the door frame so you can get an idea of what I train with. Both are functional staffs. Nether are the then performance staffs that you quickly spin like it was nothing.

This is the smallest end of the Tree. Compared to the staff on the right





This is the biggest end of the tree on the left.




When I see people spar with staffs, they are usually using a lighter staff than the two staffs seen here.   They are usually thinner and have more flexibility.  Tree doesn't flex at all. The one on the right flexes but you have to put a lot of energy and technique into making it flex. When it does flex it's doesn't flex like what we see with many kung fu staff performances.  I just really can't imagine me hitting someone with these things at 50% power and think that they will be ok.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 14, 2020)

Another angle of Tree. The thin part is at the top.


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 15, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. I'm probably somewhere between you and what I'm talking about. Your background probably leads to a more formal and systematic view of the weapon. I see it as part of a continuum of sticks, and tend to deal only with rudimentary technique, which I expect you cover but also have the background to go beyond. So I'm probably less systematic than you, though we both view the weapon seriously.
> 
> And some folks (what I was talking about in recent posts) just want to learn a staff because it's kinda cool (and it is). They may not have a functional purpose, just want to learn a new skill. In that case, bad habits (things that would interfere with developing fighting skill with the staff) aren't really an issue unless they create some safety risk.
> 
> I'm trying to learn to consider folks who learn for these kinds of purposes. I've learned (mostly through MartialTalk discussions) that there are some pretty committed people who really just want to learn something new, and aren't focused on fighting skill. I used to look down my nose at that kind of pursuit, but that's just me projecting my "should" on them.



This post made me think a little bit - Am I a TMA snob?  To be honest, maybe a little.  Not because of what I know about TMA, but because of how I feel about TMA.  I think bo kata is fun and cool, and good exercise.  If one wants just this out of it, that's OK for them.  But to do it for just these reasons is *not* martial arts.  As you said, there is no "functional purpose" and the staff is reduced to a cheerleader baton to be twirled, or a piece of exercise equipment, or worse yet, a toy.

To be termed a"martial art" there must be a functional purpose - combat effectiveness.  This infers proper execution and mind set.  I've found that this last element seems to be magnified with weapons for me.  During my iaido training, I reached a mental state beyond what I normally experience in empty hand practice.  Maybe slinging steel capable of sending me to the hospital if careless had something to do with it.

Not to sound (too) snobbish, I never trained with practice weapons.  Padded nunchaku?  Dull kama?  Hah!  Why do I feel this way?  Respect for the weapon and what it's capable of.  Working with practice weapons that present no risk if you're sloppy will not elevate you to a higher level.  I feel this should start at very early in the learning cycle. (I would make an exception to this in knife-knife combat practice as getting cut is a certainty.)

So, for me, it comes down to respect.  If a committed practitioner wants to learn something new, as you said, that's great!
Have fun - I do.  But show it respect and learn it the right way.  If not, don't call it "martial arts."


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 15, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is the biggest end of the tree on the left.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your "Tree" is certainly impressive.  Are your staffs waxwood?  I can agree I would not enjoy getting whacked with one of those.  In your case I will amend my power suggestion to 25% during staff sparring.   I use a hardwood staff slightly more narrow than the smaller one you show, though I often practice with a heavier one to develop strength.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 15, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> This post made me think a little bit - Am I a TMA snob?  To be honest, maybe a little.  Not because of what I know about TMA, but because of how I feel about TMA.  I think bo kata is fun and cool, and good exercise.  If one wants just this out of it, that's OK for them.  But to do it for just these reasons is *not* martial arts.  As you said, there is no "functional purpose" and the staff is reduced to a cheerleader baton to be twirled, or a piece of exercise equipment, or worse yet, a toy.
> 
> To be termed a"martial art" there must be a functional purpose - combat effectiveness.  This infers proper execution and mind set.  I've found that this last element seems to be magnified with weapons for me.  During my iaido training, I reached a mental state beyond what I normally experience in empty hand practice.  Maybe slinging steel capable of sending me to the hospital if careless had something to do with it.
> 
> ...


I go back and forth on that, myself. Linguistically, it “should” be as you say. But common usage tends to include areas directly derived from fighting arts. 

And you can often find both in the same class. Some folks train to fight/defend. Others just enjoy the skill development, and focus on the technique as an end in and of itself.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 15, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> This post made me think a little bit - Am I a TMA snob? To be honest, maybe a little. Not because of what I know about TMA, but because of how I feel about TMA. I think bo kata is fun and cool, and good exercise. If one wants just this out of it, that's OK for them. But to do it for just these reasons is *not* martial arts.


  This is how I feel about martial arts in general.  My opinion is that if people train it the way that it was meant to be trained then they would receive 90% of the benefits that want, but do other things to get.  I try to keep an open mind about Martial Arts and the many different perspectives of it.  To be honest. I probably follow an outdated perspective of what Martial was once seen as.  I think a lot of knowledge is lost when it's not trained for function.  When students used to have trouble with forms, I would always tell them to set their motion to purpose.  When a hand is moved a certain way, understand what the purpose is and move according to that purpose.   Some people will just do the movement and not really understand what the movement is doing or the purpose of it.  This ultimately affects everything including the structure.

I will be happy enough if I can pass down the function in some shape or form.  Be it through video or through student.


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 15, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> you can often find both in the same class. Some folks train to fight/defend. Others just enjoy the skill development, and focus on the technique as an end in and of itself.



Yes.  I am in it for both reasons, mostly the latter.  But no matter which of these two is the main reason, all my beliefs expressed above still hold.  I don't see any area of disagreement here.  All I'm really saying is MA (esp. weapons) is not a plaything and, to quote my parents:  "Something worth doing is worth doing right," and to have respect for it.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 15, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> @isshinryuronin
> about the 50% power.  This is why I say I can't imagine hitting someone at 50% with the staffs that I used.  The staff on the left is what my old kung fu brothers nicknamed Tree.  I took text to the door frame so you can get an idea of what I train with. Both are functional staffs. Nether are the then performance staffs that you quickly spin like it was nothing.
> 
> This is the smallest end of the Tree. Compared to the staff on the right
> ...


Impressive pieces of wood there.  

I’ve been using 1 1/4 inch diameter hickory, about 6 1/4 feet long.  Even with wearing padding and pulling back on the power, I can’t imagine being hit with that.  Bone-cruncher is the description I keep using, I can’t come up with a better one.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 15, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Your "Tree" is certainly impressive.  Are your staffs waxwood?  I can agree I would not enjoy getting whacked with one of those.  In your case I will amend my power suggestion to 25% during staff sparring.   I use a hardwood staff slightly more narrow than the smaller one you show, though I often practice with a heavier one to develop strength.


Both are wax wood staffs.  It's really difficult to get natural waxwood staffs (with the knots) still on it.  Most staffs in my area seem to be geared towards kids and I know it's going to be even more difficult to find staffs after all of the corona virus stuff is done with.   Which may not be too bad.   I might be able to open up a martial arts store to fill in the void.

I'm a big fan of the heavy weapons.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 15, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Impressive pieces of wood there.
> 
> I’ve been using 1 1/4 inch diameter hickory, about 6 1/4 feet long.  Even with wearing padding and pulling back on the power, I can’t imagine being hit with that.  Bone-cruncher is the description I keep using, I can’t come up with a better one.


Turns out mine is closer to 1 5/16 inch, i shape them on a belt sander from a square strip cut from a plank.  it's a fun hobby.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 15, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Impressive pieces of wood there.
> 
> I’ve been using 1 1/4 inch diameter hickory, about 6 1/4 feet long.  Even with wearing padding and pulling back on the power, I can’t imagine being hit with that.  Bone-cruncher is the description I keep using, I can’t come up with a better one.


The staff techniques actually make swinging the staff more efficient.  So 20% input is not 20% output upon impact.  Most people swing staffs like long baseball bats use more energy just to move the staff. WithJapanese and Chinese staff techniques,  the swings are different and tend to flow with the staff and utilizes both front and back end movements. These systems worth both the front end (lead hand), back end (rear hand) areas of the staff.   If one hand is pulling on the staff then the other one is pushing (and vice versa).  As a result,  a small amount it only takes a small amount of energy to make the other end painful.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 15, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Impressive pieces of wood there.
> 
> I’ve been using 1 1/4 inch diameter hickory, about 6 1/4 feet long.  Even with wearing padding and pulling back on the power, I can’t imagine being hit with that.  Bone-cruncher is the description I keep using, I can’t come up with a better one.


I've been hit with mine with about 2% power.  It felt like my knee cap cracked lol.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 15, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> The staff techniques actually make swinging the staff more efficient.  So 20% input is not 20% output upon impact.  Most people swing staffs like long baseball bats use more energy just to move the staff. WithJapanese and Chinese staff techniques,  the swings are different and tend to flow with the staff and utilizes both front and back end movements. These systems worth both the front end (lead hand), back end (rear hand) areas of the staff.   If one hand is pulling on the staff then the other one is pushing (and vice versa).  As a result,  a small amount it only takes a small amount of energy to make the other end painful.


Yeah, and that is why I feel sparring can actually be detrimental. In order to pull back the power to a safe level you end up undermining the technique and the entire method.  You end up sparring very differently than you would actually use the techniques in a fight.  You develop expectations of how a fight would progress that are unrealistic.

I think controlled application drills are better.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 15, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Both are wax wood staffs.  It's really difficult to get natural waxwood staffs (with the knots) still on it.  Most staffs in my area seem to be geared towards kids and I know it's going to be even more difficult to find staffs after all of the corona virus stuff is done with.   Which may not be too bad.   I might be able to open up a martial arts store to fill in the void.
> 
> I'm a big fan of the heavy weapons.


Before Brendan Lai’s supply shop in San Francisco closed down I would go in and pick out waxwood staffs, both for staff practice and to fit a spearhead.  Mrs. Lai would let me go into the back and select from the stock that was not yet on display for the general public.  I was always looking for stuff that was heavier, straighter, and reasonably uniform roundness.

They gave me some inside tracks on a few other things that they didn’t make available to the general public, like some older Lung Chuan heavy grade swords from the 1970s and 1980s when they still made them plenty beefy.  I have some good connections in the San Francisco Chinese martial arts community that I was fortunate to have some doors opened for me.

I miss Mrs. Lai and her son Al.  I didn’t realize they were getting ready to close until after it was done.  I stopped by one day and the place was closed up.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 15, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Yes.  I am in it for both reasons, mostly the latter.  But no matter which of these two is the main reason, all my beliefs expressed above still hold.  I don't see any area of disagreement here.  All I'm really saying is MA (esp. weapons) is not a plaything and, to quote my parents:  "Something worth doing is worth doing right," and to have respect for it.


Full agreement.

To add a bit, I think it is ok to be in it more for the exercise aspect and less for the fighting.  However, the practice of the methods and the technique should still be correct and the same as if one is in it for the fighting skills.  The difference is in a reduced focus on the application work, such as partner drills and sparring.  Personally, I feel that if you are practicing a solid foundation even without those application tools, you can still develop some useful defensive and fighting skills.  It’s just slower and probably not to the same level.  But at any rate you get exercise and personal meaning from the hard work that comes from doing it right.  It isn’t just about vaguely imitating some abstract movement in order to get one’s heart rate up.  

With the example of weapons, you want that weapon to BE a weapon.  You don’t ever want to reduce it to a stage prop or a toy.  Practicing the methods correctly, even without direct application drills, keeps that from happening.  And using a weapons that is sized and robust and balanced as a real weapon also keeps that from happening.  One thing that I have always detested is those floppy Modern Wushu dao/saber made of cheap sheet metal on a crappy hilt that always feel like they are about to fly apart.  Or those super thin and springy spears with a tiny spearhead made of sheet aluminum.  BARF!!!!  Those are stage props and toys.  I stopped playing with toy swords when I was about 12.  That’s why I started rebuilding my swords, because I was disgusted by what was generally available for Chinese martial arts.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 15, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> One thing that I have always detested is those floppy Modern Wushu dao/saber made of cheap sheet metal on a crappy hilt that always feel like they are about to fly apart. Or those super thin and springy spears with a tiny spearhead made of sheet aluminum. BARF!!!!


This is me 100%  I'm definitely not a fan of floppy weapons  that almost bend from their own weight. I know not everyone has access to functional weapons, but dang at least get the weight and composition right.  

It's more impressive to me to see someone master something like than than, something that a 5 year old can pick up.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 15, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is me 100%  I'm definitely not a fan of floppy weapons  that almost bend from their own weight. I know not everyone has access to functional weapons, but dang at least get the weight and composition right.
> 
> It's more impressive to me to see someone master something like than than, something that a 5 year old can pick up.


I was a spectator at a tournament many years ago, and after the competition ended there was a masters demo.  This fellow steps onto the floor to demo his dao form.  He begins the form, snaps out his dao, which exploded into pieces leaving only the hollow wooden grip in his hand.  The blade flew in one direction and damn near floated to the ground, the guard flew in another, and the pommel dropped straight down.  This was on his very first move of the form.

Jeezuz.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 15, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is me 100%  I'm definitely not a fan of floppy weapons  that almost bend from their own weight. I know not everyone has access to functional weapons, but dang at least get the weight and composition right.
> 
> It's more impressive to me to see someone master something like than than, something that a 5 year old can pick up.


When I was competing with my forms, I was using a dao that was thick like a meat cleaver, and a really heavy staff.  When the judges would examine my weapons, they always commented on their heft.  Once, when I named which dao form I would do, one judge commented that he knew that form (he had been a student of my Sigung [now my Sifu] many years before, although I didn’t know that at the time) and he raised his eyebrows that I was using that dao to do that form.  I definitely got noticed by the judges, and got respect for my weapons.  After several years of this, another judge (they were regulars every year) commented “you’ve sure got nice weapons”.  They would see me there every year.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 16, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> The blade flew in one direction and damn near floated to the ground,


This is the funniest thing I've heard all year.  That remind me of seeing a guy do a bow staff performance and he lost grip of the bow and it flew off into the group of students who were sitting and watching (about 5 feet away).  When the staff hits the students they just giggled.  I was truly amazed as there's nothing I train with that will make a person giggle if they get hit with it. ha ha ha.  I would hate to be that guy whose staff broke.  Do you remember if he had a macho look before he started his form?  Was he embarrassed?  Maybe he became a kung fu legend in his school and they talk about how his awesome strength broke the dao and how his Chi made the blade float. lol


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 16, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> When I was competing with my forms, I was using a dao that was thick like a meat cleaver, and a really heavy staff.  When the judges would examine my weapons, they always commented on their heft.  Once, when I named which dao form I would do, one judge commented that he knew that form (he had been a student of my Sigung [now my Sifu] many years before, although I didn’t know that at the time) and he raised his eyebrows that I was using that dao to do that form.  I definitely got noticed by the judges, and got respect for my weapons.  After several years of this, another judge (they were regulars every year) commented “you’ve sure got nice weapons”.  They would see me there every year.


Some of the students from my old school who competed were noticed and appreciated for using a weapon and not a stage prop, which makes me wonder why some just insist on the stage prop weapons.   I'm ok if children under a certain age has to use it or if the real version is not allowed by law.  But to have a guy come out all tough yelling and twirling a staff that weighs less than a pack of notebook paper,  puts things too much in the "world of pretend" for me".


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## Flying Crane (Apr 16, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is the funniest thing I've heard all year.  That remind me of seeing a guy do a bow staff performance and he lost grip of the bow and it flew off into the group of students who were sitting and watching (about 5 feet away).  When the staff hits the students they just giggled.  I was truly amazed as there's nothing I train with that will make a person giggle if they get hit with it. ha ha ha.  I would hate to be that guy whose staff broke.  Do you remember if he had a macho look before he started his form?  Was he embarrassed?  Maybe he became a kung fu legend in his school and they talk about how his awesome strength broke the dao and how his Chi made the blade float. lol


To his credit he looked pretty sheepish but I think it was just the shock of realizing he broke his dao and had nothing to do his demo with.  Another fellow rushed up to him and offered his dao to the fellow so the demo could happen.  

This was back in the mid 1990s, I didn’t know much about kung fu at that time, I was still a capoeirista and we had been doing a demonstration at a public park down the street and then happened to wander into the end of the tournament that was happening at UC Berkeley.  We sat and watched and had a chuckle at what happened.  But even without knowing much about it, I had a feeling in my gut that I just witnessed something that definitely should not have happened and it spoke volumes to the lack of quality in the weapon.

A friend had his video camera and filmed much of the demo.  I don’t know if he still has that, it would have been on vhs which maybe he converted to digital.  I suspect it is just gone but I’ll ask him someday.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 16, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Some of the students from my old school who competed were noticed and appreciated for using a weapon and not a stage prop, which makes me wonder why some just insist on the stage prop weapons.   I'm ok if children under a certain age has to use it or if the real version is not allowed by law.  But to have a guy come out all tough yelling and twirling a staff that weighs less than a pack of notebook paper,  puts things too much in the "world of pretend" for me".


I heard a story of a Ryu_kyu Kempo guy who was asked to judge forms. A guy came out and did a really exciting form with lightweight speed 'chucks. After he finished, the instructor pulled his real nunchuku out of his bag and said, "Here, now do it with these."

He wasn't asked to judge the next year.


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 16, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I heard a story of a Ryu_kyu Kempo guy who was asked to judge forms. A guy came out and did a really exciting form with lightweight speed 'chucks. After he finished, the instructor pulled his real nunchuku out of his bag and said, "Here, now do it with these."
> 
> He wasn't asked to judge the next year.


Sounds like something I'd do.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 17, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Sounds like something I'd do.


I knew you seemed familiar!!  I shoulda won that tournament!!


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