# Effective Empty Hand vs Knife Strategies



## Makalakumu (Dec 31, 2003)

Origanally Posted by Paul.

#1. Run. By far the best option, and prefered if you are able too. You have the best chance of survival if you can run.

#2. Do something right away that will disable the knife. An immediate disarm of the knife, an immediate interception and control of the knife hand, or an immediate attack resulting in the attacker being completely immobilized would be an example. The problem with this is you can't screw this up at all; if you do, your chances of being cut to pieces rise dramatically. Furthermore, this requires a committed attack; the less committed and telegraphed, the less likely your chances of pulling this off. And finally, to do this option requires an extreme amount of proficiency on your part.

The biggest problem with this is that no matter how much you have trained, a sharp blade will always cut your flesh on contact, but your technique will not always work on contact. He has a sure thing in his hand, where as your technique is neer a sure thing. This is how the odds are always against you, no matter how trained you are.

#3. Dodge and evade until you can run or grab something to aid you in your defense. This is preferable if you are not trained well, and you can't run. It is also your only option if #2 fails (and you can't run). You can always try #2 again, but remember that your chances of being cut are greater with each failed attempt, and they weren't in your favor to begin with. Problem with this is that once again, the longer your in the situation, the greater your chances of being cut. Furthermore, he can close on you faster then you can retreat just like he can win a running race against you if you run backwards while he runs forwards. Also, action is faster then reaction. Another disadvantage is that if you are able to pick something up, chances are it won't be lethal enough to stop him, thus prolonging the incident and greatening your odds of being cut.

This solution is extremely problamatic, but must be used if it is all that is available to you.

#4 Spaz out, rush in on him, and barade him with attacks while you are trying to control his knife or subdue him. This isn't quite the same as #2. #2 means your first move immediately subdues his ability to cut you; This is more of a rush where you are trying to overwhelm him with attacks. If you are trained, this may be a better option for you then #3, but this one is even more problamatic then the first three options. Even if you are trained well, you have put yourself in a spot where you will either overcome your attacker, or die trying, period. With #2 your attacker is subdued, with #3 you are at least buying yourself time for an escape, or for an object in your hand that will put the odds in your favor. By rushing in with every technique you know to stop him, you have no chance of surviving if you are not successful. Even if you are successful, you will most likely take serious wounds in the process. 

This is not recomended, and definatily not as a 1st choice. If you try to run and are unsucessful, you can try options 2-4. If you try option #2, you may be able to try another option if your not dead. If you try #3, you may be able to survive with only non fatal cuts as you buy yourself time to run or subdue. With this option, option 4, failure assures your death. Retreating to another option is not really possible with this choice. 

#5. Stand there and let your attacker kill you. This is an option, but it is not a good choice for anyone.

This is a good topic and Paul's breakdown of options is pretty much what I teach my students.  I would add eyes to the list.  Finger jabs are dicey because you're going to get cut.  Run, grab some dirt and throw.  Then go for number 1 or number 2.  Does anyone have anything to add?


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## theletch1 (Dec 31, 2003)

Well, doing number 2 when someone pulls a knife is probably what most of us would do.   Seriously. though, Paul pretty much nailed it with his post.  I certainly can't add anything to what he has already put forth except.....yep, sounds 'bout right.


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## hardheadjarhead (Dec 31, 2003)

> Finger jabs are dicey because you're going to get cut.



Perhaps not.  If one were to keep throwing them out, flicking as a jab over and over a la Muhammed Ali, a cut would be inevitable. Unless of course, you were facing an idiot.  But a quick flick in the hopes of scoring quickly, perhaps as lead into something else, could be perfectly acceptable.  I know some very anal Jun Fan guys who practice it a great deal.  They could very well pull it off.

I have a last ditch measure that I rarely teach...it involves me allowing the attacker to stab me in the ribs.  I then flex my well trained, rock like abs and trap the blade.  With a sharp twist downward, I break the blade off in my body, thereby denying the attacker the use of his weapon.  

An added advantage to this last movement is that the blade prevents exanguination, what with it acting like a plug and all.  A trauma surgeon can then remove the blade later.  Not too much later.  For example, one wouldn't want to stop at a McDonald's on the way to the hospital.  This would be most unwise.  If the blade doesn't kill you, the food very well might.

I call this the "Celtic Body Blade Trap".  Don't try this at home.  In fact, don't try it anywhere.  But if you do manage to pull it off, credit me duly.  If it fails...well, clearly you did it incorrectly.

Regards,


Steve


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## arnisador (Dec 31, 2003)

I think I saw this in a John Gilbey book!


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## Makalakumu (Jan 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *I call this the "Celtic Body Blade Trap".  Don't try this at home.  In fact, don't try it anywhere.  But if you do manage to pull it off, credit me duly.  If it fails...well, clearly you did it incorrectly.
> 
> Regards,
> ...



I'm sorry, but this is the polish knife defense.  Attack enmasse!!!


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## Shiatsu (Jan 1, 2004)

The only true knife defense is.........................Well there isn't one.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *The only true knife defense is.........................Well there isn't one. *



Why is it so many practice empty hand techniques against a knife, if this is truly an impossability?

7sm


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## Phil Elmore (Jan 2, 2004)

In a move that will no doubt shock 7sm, I agree with him.    Knife defenses are not impossible, though they are very dangerous by definition.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *In a move that will no doubt shock 7sm, I agree with him.    Knife defenses are not impossible, though they are very dangerous by definition. *



Wait, what just happened here? ?  

I think this is something for the record books.   

I agree, very dangerous indeed.

7sm


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## Cruentus (Jan 2, 2004)

(I am sure I'll look out the window and see donkeys flying soon...)

But, I agree with 7sm, and Phil.

It's not impossable. You won't get me to say that it wouldn't be better to have a some kind of weapon handy rather then just your hands, but I concur that it isn't impossable.

PAUL


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## Cruentus (Jan 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I think I saw this in a John Gilbey book! *



I haven't seen that book yet, but I am sure I read or heard what I posted somewhere before, and it just stuck!


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## Cruentus (Jan 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Why is it so many practice empty hand techniques against a knife, if this is truly an impossability?
> 
> 7sm *



I don't know for sure, but I think Shaitsu was saying that there is no "true" knife defense, meaning "no sure thing." 

I could be wrong though.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I don't know for sure, but I think Shaitsu was saying that there is no "true" knife defense, meaning "no sure thing."
> 
> I could be wrong though. *



Then there would be no true defense against a drunken frat guy at a bar either.

7sm


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## Cruentus (Jan 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Then there would be no true defense against a drunken frat guy at a bar either.
> 
> 7sm *



I say that is true also. I don't think that there is a "sure thing" defense against anyone/anything.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 3, 2004)

Which is more dangerous, a large knife or a small knife?  I would say that a large knife is going to give more reach yet the defense empty hand would be the same.  Get inside and try to stop the knife.  (way easier said then done!!!!)  A small knife, on the other hand, there is nothing to grab and is generally going to be harder to attack in my opinion.  Anyone have any advice on this situation since this is probably the most common knife defense situation we will see on the street.  The long knives we train with, in my opinion, just aren't too practical.


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## hardheadjarhead (Jan 3, 2004)

> Which is more dangerous, a large knife or a small knife? I would say that a large knife is going to give more reach yet the defense empty hand would be the same. Get inside and try to stop the knife. (way easier said then done!!!!) A small knife, on the other hand, there is nothing to grab and is generally going to be harder to attack in my opinion. Anyone have any advice on this situation since this is probably the most common knife defense situation we will see on the street. The long knives we train with, in my opinion, just aren't too practical.




The long knife is probably more dangerous.  It can thrust deeper, has greater cutting surface, greater reach.  It has greater mass and can often chop deeply (a Ka-Bar).  The small knife is more concealable and harder to disarm.  Throughout history, though, you rarely see people carrying small blades.  Romans, Goths, Vikings...all carried knives of a pretty hefty nature.  It was a tool...it was also a back up.

For carrying, I carry small folders (two Benchmade Griptilians.  Occasionally I carry a Spyderco G-!0 Bob Lum).  If I needed to carry a bigger knife, I have them.  I can't imagine a scenario calling for that, though, and if I carried them it would be for practice in concealing and carrying them...in my world I can't honestly anticpate having to pack a Strider Valkyrie with a nine inch blade...I'm not living in the 4th century.

That latter knife will easily take off a hand, and could conceivably behead someone.  So it is quite dangerous.  It is heavy, though...and would move significantly slower than the aforementioned folders.

So, in discussing which is more dangerous...are you talking being on the receiving end or carrying end?  Sounds like you're on the receiving end training defense against a knife.  If you want a short trainer for that purpose...try Ray Dianaldo's site or the Sayoc web site.  They have some "folder" trainers that are the perfect size.  I wouldn't recommend the trainers from Benchmade, as they're mostly for the user.  I don't think they'd hold up well against constant disarms.

Regards,


Steve


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## Makalakumu (Jan 3, 2004)

For all practical purposes, a short knife is more dangerous since that is most likely what you would see on the street.  So, wouldn't we want to train defense against short knives more?


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## 7starmantis (Jan 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *A small knife, on the other hand, there is nothing to grab and is generally going to be harder to attack in my opinion.*



If your planning on grabbing the knife, I think your in for some trouble. Both a long knife and a short have dangerous qualities. In my opinion the shorter one is going to be the one you don't know is their until its too late. Its easier to conceal, thus probably in all practicality the more dangerous.

7sm


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## hardheadjarhead (Jan 4, 2004)

> For all practical purposes, a short knife is more dangerous since that is most likely what you would see on the street. So, wouldn't we want to train defense against short knives more?



The knife that is the most dangerous is the one he has in his hand.  If he has a Spyderco Delica in his hand and a Bowie in his belt, the tiny Delica is the more dangerous of the two.

Had I a choice between drawing the Delica or the Bowie, I'd go with the Bowie.  It simply causes more damage.  Same with a good sized carving knife.  It cuts and stabs deeper.

But I do think we need to train defenses against short knives more.  There are a lot of defenses out there that are somewhat generic...that would work against a short or long blade.  



Regards,


Steve


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## Makalakumu (Jan 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *If your planning on grabbing the knife, I think your in for some trouble. Both a long knife and a short have dangerous qualities. In my opinion the shorter one is going to be the one you don't know is their until its too late. Its easier to conceal, thus probably in all practicality the more dangerous.
> 
> 7sm *



Many of the knife defenses I practice involve a set up move, a knife immobilization technique, and then a defang the snake type of technique which sometimes involves palming the back of a blade, or the handle in order to strip it away.  What do your empty hand knife defenses look like?


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## 7starmantis (Jan 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *Many of the knife defenses I practice involve a set up move, a knife immobilization technique, and then a defang the snake type of technique which sometimes involves palming the back of a blade, or the handle in order to strip it away.  What do your empty hand knife defenses look like? *



None that would involve purposly contacting the knife with my hand. Thats just too risky to get cut. All of ours are basically destructions or holds of the hand, arm, or basic side of the body the knife is on.

7sm


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## Makalakumu (Jan 5, 2004)

Some of our attempt to use a joint lock or some destructive manuever first before we try to strip the blade.  With shorter blades this is more difficult, which is why I may opt to destroy my opponents mobility and then run away to end the confrontation.


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## psi_radar (Jan 5, 2004)

Systema has some interesting disarms that range from a simple shearing technique to contact manipulation between your body and the blade. They also train to gain sensitivity with the attributes of the knife and building familiarity with it...hence the training with live blades at the higher levels. The idea is that you'll fight a lot more effectively if you're not actively crapping your pants (though that could be considered defense #5). This training is spontaneous, not rehearsed techniques. I'd trade that kind of knife training over rote techniques any day.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 5, 2004)

I'm of the mind that you should train attack angles with repeated defenses that fit the defenders body type in order to make the defense mushin.


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## MisterMike (Jan 5, 2004)

I think the strategy will depend on the defender. If your confidence and skills tell you you shouldn't even consider engaging the attacker, you should look for a means to escape.

Then there will be those who do not see the means to escape and must engage the attacker.

I'm of the mind that you cannot win empty handed by kicking and punching alone (unless you get lucky). So lets rule out kicking it out of his hand, or the single knock-out punch.

At some point, you need to get control of the weapon. Then remove the threat of it harming you, either by removing the knife, disabling the arm at some location, or restraining the arm and removing that person's ability to fight. So getting a hold of the knife-wielding arm is probably the strategy most likely to lead you to success.

I think studying arts that deal with joint control/manipulation will therefor be of more benefit to helping this strategy, practiced of course with a blade.

Still, all that been said, it's not a pretty place to be in.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 5, 2004)

On three occasions, I have kicked the knife from the hands of trained FMA players.  Once, from a maestro, my instructor.  Its quick and dangerous and probably not practical, yet it shouldn't be entirely ruled out, especially in the land of the ice and snow where we where boots all day.


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## arnisador (Jan 5, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *At some point, you need to get control of the weapon.  *



Yes, if you're unarmed, I think that's nearly always the best approach.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 5, 2004)

> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *On three occasions, I have kicked the knife from the hands of trained FMA players.  Once, from a maestro, my instructor.  Its quick and dangerous and probably not practical, yet it shouldn't be entirely ruled out, especially in the land of the ice and snow where we where boots all day. *



Do disrespect, three out of how many times? A round number would answer the question fine for me.

Thank You


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## MisterMike (Jan 5, 2004)

Well, most people can't kick too fast with boots on. But it looks good in the movies I'll admit.

Again, it goes with how much you know yourself and what you can make of the attacker and the situation.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Do disrespect, three out of how many times? A round number would answer the question fine for me.
> 
> Thank You *



Truth be told, I would never try it on the street because it only works when the knife is low and loose and the other person is hesitating.  Its hard to give it a percentage because I've tried it so many times in non-optimal situation.  Still, if you see the opponent set up like that, it becomes an option.  Give it a try as you practice...have your opponent set up with the old "west side story" knife fighting stance.


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## Cruentus (Jan 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *I think the strategy will depend on the defender. If your confidence and skills tell you you shouldn't even consider engaging the attacker, you should look for a means to escape.
> 
> Then there will be those who do not see the means to escape and must engage the attacker.
> ...



Very good post!


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## hardheadjarhead (Jan 6, 2004)

I managed to kick a knife out of a guy's hand in training as well.  It flew up, we both looked up, and then he caught it by the handle in on the way down.  Hilarity ensued.

Regards,


Steve


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## Cruentus (Jan 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *On three occasions, I have kicked the knife from the hands of trained FMA players.  Once, from a maestro, my instructor.  Its quick and dangerous and probably not practical, yet it shouldn't be entirely ruled out, especially in the land of the ice and snow where we where boots all day. *



I think it is worth mentioning here that the conditions under which we train are not always condusive of reality, and we may be able to pull off things in a controlled environment that we would never be able to pull off in an uncontrolled environment (street, battlefield, etc.).

If my training partner isn't paying attention, I may be able to kick the knife out of his hand. I may not see, with a training knife, a cut on my own leg or achilles that could happend in the process of kicking. Plus, in a training hall and with a training blade, I can screw a kick up and get hacked without any worries, where I can't afford this with a real knife. I may have big stompin' boots on in real life, so I may think that this will protect my foot, but it may also slow down my kicking speed and accuracy dramatically, allowing my opponent to close with his knife while I am mid-kick. If I am wearing boots, am I in snow or ice? It would be fatal for me to slip and fall on the ice after trying to kick a knife wielding attacker.

That being said, I wouldn't rule out kicking the knife out of the hand, but I wouldn't recommend it either. Being unsucessful in disarming the attacker with the kick could escalate the situation from bad to worse very quickly, and could prove to be fatal. The above factors need to be considered.

PAUL


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## Cruentus (Jan 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *I managed to kick a knife out of a guy's hand in training as well.  It flew up, we both looked up, and then he caught it by the handle in on the way down.  Hilarity ensued.
> 
> Regards,
> ...



lol:rofl:


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## MJS (Jan 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MJS (Jan 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *Which is more dangerous, a large knife or a small knife?  I would say that a large knife is going to give more reach yet the defense empty hand would be the same.  Get inside and try to stop the knife.  (way easier said then done!!!!)  A small knife, on the other hand, there is nothing to grab and is generally going to be harder to attack in my opinion.  Anyone have any advice on this situation since this is probably the most common knife defense situation we will see on the street.  The long knives we train with, in my opinion, just aren't too practical. *



Any size can be deadly.  You dont have to have a butcher knife for it to cause you some serious damage.  Keep in mind, that the little cuts can break the person down just as easy.

Mike


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## MJS (Jan 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *On three occasions, I have kicked the knife from the hands of trained FMA players.  Once, from a maestro, my instructor.  Its quick and dangerous and probably not practical, yet it shouldn't be entirely ruled out, especially in the land of the ice and snow where we where boots all day. *



That is something that IMO, should be ruled out.  Why risk a move like you'd see in a Van Dam movie??  The Filipinos are some of the best knife fighters that I've seen.  With all due respect, I'd have to say that the guy that you did this to didnt know how to fight with a knife very well.

Mike


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## MisterMike (Jan 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Very good post! *



Thanks Paul.

Of course I left out the intermediary steps of how to get in on a good knife person so you can get to the knife hand.  

For this, tactics such as feinting, leading, surprise, agility and overall quickness are going to be paramount. I'm sure I left out a few but you get the idea. These can be learned regardless of style.

On another note...has anyone seen On Deadly Ground? There was this one scene at the oil refinery where a guy was holding the knife with his front hand, around face level and Seagal came around the corner and just rammed it into his face :rofl: 

I don't like plugging movies for example, but that was just beautiful.


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## hardheadjarhead (Jan 6, 2004)

> quote]I have a last ditch measure that I rarely teach...it involves me allowing the attacker to stab me in the ribs. I then flex my well trained, rock like abs and trap the blade. With a sharp twist downward, I break the blade off in my body, thereby denying the attacker the use of his weapon.





> Dude- I seriously hope that you are kidding



What?  HOW DARE YOU!!!!

Right now I'm taking the technique to new levels by bearing down with my abs, thereby spitting the broken blade out of my torso and back into the attacker's body.  The hard part will be getting the knife to rotate to a point-towards-the-attacker position once I eject it.

I must add, too, that practice is difficult.  One has to largely work from theory.  But hey...Einstein was a theoretician, and not an experimental physicist.  Look at the great things HE achieved.


Regards,


Steve


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## Cruentus (Jan 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *What?  HOW DARE YOU!!!!
> 
> Right now I'm taking the technique to new levels by bearing down with my abs, thereby spitting the broken blade out of my torso and back into the attacker's body.  The hard part will be getting the knife to rotate to a point-towards-the-attacker position once I eject it.
> ...



Your answer is yes he is kidding.  :rofl:


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## Makalakumu (Jan 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *That is something that IMO, should be ruled out.  Why risk a move like you'd see in a Van Dam movie??  The Filipinos are some of the best knife fighters that I've seen.  With all due respect, I'd have to say that the guy that you did this to didnt know how to fight with a knife very well.
> 
> Mike *



Everybody gets distracted, even the best.  I saw a video of Angel Cabales kicking the knife out of a student's hand.  I agree that it is a very dangerous move though.  Still, if possible...its much better then closing into stabbing range.  If the opening presents itself, why not take advantage.  I have trained this move a bit.  If the knife is held low and loose (and upright!!!!) and your opponent hesitates, with a snap kick, it is possible to disarm your opponent.  To testify to the amount of reality I expect out of this technique, though, I have to state that I have one out of ten patterns where I do this.  The rest are more practical.  And, one of the times I kicked the knife out, I caught it....now that was sweet.


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## Matt Bernius (Jan 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *Origanally Posted by Paul.
> 
> #2. Do something right away that will disable the knife. An immediate disarm of the knife, an immediate interception and control of the knife hand, or an immediate attack resulting in the attacker being completely immobilized would be an example. The problem with this is you can't screw this up at all; if you do, your chances of being cut to pieces rise dramatically. Furthermore, this requires a committed attack; the less committed and telegraphed, the less likely your chances of pulling this off. And finally, to do this option requires an extreme amount of proficiency on your part.*


Just a note on this one, often people assume that a disarm requires wrestling the knife (or other weapon) away from the person. I've seen self defense scenarios (in practice only) were a protracted wrestling battle starts while the defender attempts to get the knife away from the person. The problem with this is the longer the battle goes on, the greater number of times the knife will pass across one's body. Plus many manipluation disarms require a high degree of fine motor control.

The far better approach is to clear the blade (often letting the attacker clear it for you with a slash), check the arm so you understand where the weapon is in relation to you, and attack the body/head. It's what your attacker is least expecting and tends to have the most immediate and extreme effect on the person.

Just food for thought. Note, this is also a perferred method for close quarter gun defense.

- Matt


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## Matt Bernius (Jan 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *Which is more dangerous, a large knife or a small knife?  I would say that a large knife is going to give more reach yet the defense empty hand would be the same.  Get inside and try to stop the knife.  (way easier said then done!!!!)  A small knife, on the other hand, there is nothing to grab and is generally going to be harder to attack in my opinion.*


The longer is most likely more dangerous. As other posters have said it packs more power (penetration and slashing) due to it's length and weight. As small knife can be dangerous but is also more likely to be stopped by things like layers of clothing (like we wear up north here during winter).



> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *Anyone have any advice on this situation since this is probably the most common knife defense situation we will see on the street.  The long knives we train with, in my opinion, just aren't too practical. *


In some ways your right. A lot of the knife defenses people work are based on knives that are of a certain length. All techniques don't work the same on weapons of different lenghts. A six inch tactical folder is much shorter in many cases than the Filipino "knife" that the technique was meant for. There is a difference in cutting ability and penetration power.

Tuhon Bill McGrath (of Pekiti Tirsia International) wrote a great article on this that's archived over at the Inside Kung Fu site (unfotunately the pictures are currently broken). You can find it by scrolling down this page: 
http://www.cfw2.com/article.asp?s=cfw&content_id=3077

Hope this helps,

- Matt


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## Cruentus (Jan 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Matt Bernius _
> *Just a note on this one, often people assume that a disarm requires wrestling the knife (or other weapon) away from the person. I've seen self defense scenarios (in practice only) were a protracted wrestling battle starts while the defender attempts to get the knife away from the person. The problem with this is the longer the battle goes on, the greater number of times the knife will pass across one's body. Plus many manipluation disarms require a high degree of fine motor control.
> 
> The far better approach is to clear the blade (often letting the attacker clear it for you with a slash), check the arm so you understand where the weapon is in relation to you, and attack the body/head. It's what your attacker is least expecting and tends to have the most immediate and extreme effect on the person.
> ...



Yes...but wrestling with a knife where its cutting you would not constitute doing an "immediate" action that will disable his ability to attack you with the knife. Wrestling would mean that you screwed up your disarm, and now you are forced to wrestle with him.

That being said, I'd rather wrestle with a trained knife fighter then try to pass and parry the knife hand of a trained knife fighter. If you try to pass and parry and strike rather then control the knife hand, I think you will find that the knife fight will last longer then you think, and that your chances of getting cut are much greater.

What you described was "#3", dodge and evade (or let them pass) and attack (or pick something up and attack, or run). This isn't a bad option, and many schools of thought train along these lines. I think that immediately disabling your attackers weapon (immediate disarm, picking up a gun and shooting him, or whatever) is a much better option if available then Option #3. However, I agree with you that the problem with option #2 is that although its the best choice outside of running, it does take a great amount of the right kind of training to be plausable if your without a weapon.

btw...I have read the article you put up before. I think its great. Someone recently put it up on this forum.

PAUL


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## Matt Bernius (Jan 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Yes...but wrestling with a knife where its cutting you would not constitute doing an "immediate" action that will disable his ability to attack you with the knife. Wrestling would mean that you screwed up your disarm, and now you are forced to wrestle with him.
> *


I understand what your saying. I think though that many people think about a disarm in terms of manipulating the knife out of the person's hand. Those are possible. But at least from my training in the Filipino arts it's typically considered that disarms occur as a result of softening up the person attacking you (typically though hits to the head or body).



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *That being said, I'd rather wrestle with a trained knife fighter then try to pass and parry the knife hand of a trained knife fighter. If you try to pass and parry and strike rather then control the knife hand, I think you will find that the knife fight will last longer then you think, and that your chances of getting cut are much greater. *


I should note that the type of passing and parrying that I'm suggesting is along the lines of Filipino Knife Tapping (the type you find in Pekiti Tirsia and other systems). This is an extremely effective method of passing the knife out of harms way while encorporating striking. What's also important in all of this is to keep the weapon arm in some form of check so you understand it's relative positioning.

Additionally, research has shown that the majority of knife attacks begin with 1 - 3 slashes before a stab comes. All things considered, if I'm in this type of scenario (and I'm aware there is a knife in play) and it's a relatively small one I'm willing to play the odds and risk getting slashed with a tactical folder while wading in to disarm the person by striking to their center (or destroying the arm). I'm choosing that because slashes are (and note I say relatively here) relatively beneign on the scale knife damage (especially from a small blade). As such I'd most likely be falling back on either:

1. stopping the slash before it develops power

or 

2. some form of tapping/passing with intergrated strikes

As the blade gets bigger, I'd probably change strategy if I can. BTW, my first stategy in all of this would be run or find an environmental weapon (if nothing else get my belt off as quickly as I could).

Also note that all of the above goes out the window with a trained knife person. But in that case chances are you won't know that they have a knife until you find it sticking out of you.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *btw...I have read the article you put up before. I think its great. Someone recently put it up on this forum.
> 
> PAUL    *


Thanks for the great discussion Paul. As for the article, I think it's required reading. I've gotten the chance to attend a Bill Mcgrath seminar. He's a great guy with lots of good material. I highly recommend training with him if you ever get the chance.

- Matt


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## Cruentus (Jan 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Matt Bernius _
> *
> Thanks for the great discussion Paul. As for the article, I think it's required reading. I've gotten the chance to attend a Bill Mcgrath seminar. He's a great guy with lots of good material. I highly recommend training with him if you ever get the chance.
> 
> - Matt *



I am Familiar with Tuhon McGrath and have done some training with some of his students (Jack Latorre is in a photo in the article somewhere, I think)

Thanks for the input!


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## MJS (Jan 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *What?  HOW DARE YOU!!!!
> 
> Right now I'm taking the technique to new levels by bearing down with my abs, thereby spitting the broken blade out of my torso and back into the attacker's body.  The hard part will be getting the knife to rotate to a point-towards-the-attacker position once I eject it.
> ...



Actually, I have a better one.  Maybe when the guy is slashing towards the face, catching it with the mouth might work??

:rofl: :rofl: 

Mike


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## Makalakumu (Jan 7, 2004)

If anyone has seen "Saving Private Ryan" then you may remember the knife fight between the american and the german where they end up grappling on the ground with the knife.  Talk about a powerful scene!  Does anyone train for this situation?  If so, what do you do?


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## Matt Bernius (Jan 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I am Familiar with Tuhon McGrath and have done some training with some of his students (Jack Latorre is in a photo in the article somewhere, I think)
> 
> Thanks for the input!  *


Yup, Jack Latorre and Doug Marcaida are in one of the photo sequences. Both are excellent martial artists and people in general.

- Matt


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## hardheadjarhead (Jan 7, 2004)

> If anyone has seen "Saving Private Ryan" then you may remember the knife fight between the american and the german where they end up grappling on the ground with the knife. Talk about a powerful scene! Does anyone train for this situation? If so, what do you do?



Join the Navy, instead of the freakin' Airborne....


Regards,


Steve


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## hardheadjarhead (Jan 7, 2004)

> Actually, I have a better one. Maybe when the guy is slashing towards the face, catching it with the mouth might work??




Sure.  But hardly a challenge.  But then, one must not show off...modesty IS a hallmark of the martial arts, is it not?


Regards,


Steve


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## MJS (Jan 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *Sure.  But hardly a challenge.  But then, one must not show off...modesty IS a hallmark of the martial arts, is it not?
> 
> 
> ...



Of course!!:asian: 

Mike


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## 7starmantis (Jan 7, 2004)

I think its hard to speak of specific techniques as strategy when faced with a situation such as this. Having set techniques to use in this situation will only cause you more harm, in my opinion. You will try to "force" said technique instead of allowing the person with the knife dictate what you will do. Forcing a technique is the best way to get hurt, or stabed in this instence.

7sm


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## Makalakumu (Jan 7, 2004)

I believe you need a set of techniques to train common attack angles and then you need to train instinctive responses.  Good training involves NO forced responses.  The response happens without thinking.  It's classical conditioning at it's best.  Basically, its good to have someone take a practice knife and try and plant it, but its also good to call the shots to find out what works for your body.  Do both.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 8, 2004)

Yes, yes, include situational training as well. I'm not saying avoid such training, but train in a way that if you are faced with a situation you wont revert to trying to force those few techniques you worked on. There may be circumstances that make your technique void, you need to be able to adapt.

7sm


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## arnisador (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Matt Bernius _
> *research has shown that the majority of knife attacks begin with 1 - 3 slashes before a stab comes. *



Where is this from?


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## Matt Bernius (Jan 13, 2004)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Where is this from? *



The Kali teacher I've worked with in the past has quoted that on numerous occaisions. I'll go back and ask him for a source (it now occurs to me that I should have done that a while ago).

- Matt


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## 7starmantis (Jan 15, 2004)

Getting back to the actual techniques, at least for stabbing type attacks, it is a good technique to learn to use the waist to enter into a break. As an attacker stabs straight towards the midsection, you twist the waist as you gain control of the knife hand. Holding the grab will allow your ribs to lock the attackers elbow and effectivly perfom a break on the attacking arm.

this does have to be quite fast and flawless to work however.

7sm


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## hardheadjarhead (Jan 16, 2004)

I like the techniques wherein you gain control of the hand and then just crack the he-- out of the attacker's elbow with repeated elbows of your own...and I like the "return to sender" techniques.

I do these only if my Celtic Rib Lock fails.


Regards,


Steve


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## Shadow Hunter (Mar 11, 2004)

Practice dodging to gain some distance. Then practice throwing things at the guy.

If you get the chance to run, take it.


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## Skyline22 (Mar 19, 2004)

Hi, I'm new to the boards myself, but this particular string interested me.  I noticed in an earlier discussion that some arts did not stress repeated attacks with a blade, such as Aikido, TKD, Karate, etc... I haven't seen too much about the Indonesian martial arts forms on these boards, which I think is good for a situation like this.  Granted, the other posts are quite right..empty hand against a blade isn't a good idea, and if you can avoid it, you should.  However, you might find yourself cornered into an empty hand defense.. in the form I currently practice, Pukulan Pentjak Silat Serak, we have knife drills (sambuts) which have the offensive party delivering repeated knife attacks from various angles, at combat speed... not only does it let us adjust to controlling the weapon arm and parrying slashes, thrusts, and stabs.. but it gives us a feel for the brutality behind a knife assault.  Nothing is coreographed, therefore an inproper defense in the sambuts will get you tagged with the practice knife in a vital spot.  I believe this form of training and drill is excellent, should you find yourself with no other option but to defend empty hand.


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