# Modern Japanese jiu jitsu vs traditional Japanese jiu jitsu



## moonhill99

Note may be some members here into Japanese jiu jitsu section of this forum and really into jiu jitsu can explain this better.


I'm looking for a Japanese jiu jitsu school in Florida and some members where saying most schools in the US are modern Japanese jiu jitsu also known modern eclectic Western jujutsu system. Saying it not that it is bad, it just really not really true jiu jitsu. Saying a  person takes bit of karate,Judo and jiu jitsu and slaps together system and call it Japanese jiu jitsu .

What is more scary is it a McDojo school or how much do they understand  jiu jitsu. If such a school is only teaching some of the jiu jitsu moves?

Some members where saying I should take Aikido and Judo to get better feel of the art. But Aikido and Judo came from jiu jitsu.


It is really confusing understanding the different traditional Japanese jiu jitsu styles than the modern Japanese jiu jitsu.

Some of the Japanese jiu jitsu schools in Florida just seem to come of like McDojo schools to me or have no idea how to teach.


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## Shai Hulud

_Modern Japanese Jiu-Jitsu_? You could be looking at either Aikido or Judo, or even Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or Sambo if you consider the cousin arts that the Brazilians and the Russians have formulated themselves.

I highly recommend Judo _if _you can find a good dojo around your area. Ask if they're a member of the national federation, or at least certified by the IJF.


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## Tony Dismukes

I think you may have misunderstood what was being said in the other thread. Modern forms of jujutsu are not any less valid or "real" than older forms. They're just ... different. An art created according to the cultural norms and practical requirements of 17th century Japan is going to be different from an art created according to the cultural norms and practical requirements of mid-20th century England.

I think of it something like an extended family. Yoshin Ryu (a very old traditional Japanese form of jujutsu) is a distant relation to BJJ (a modern, western form of jujutsu) in the way that your great-great grand-uncle is a relation to you. You're related and probably share some DNA, but you are very different people.

In the other thread, you stated that you wanted to find an art that was somewhat aggressive and included strikes, throws, locks, and hold-downs. You can find that in many forms of jujutsu (as well as other arts which are not jujutsu related).

As far as the possibility of schools being 'McDojos", it's always a possibility in any art. I'm not sure how you're making that judgment though. What do you mean by 'McDojo" and why do you suspect the schools near you might qualify?

As far as their ability to teach, you'll have to visit them and judge for yourself. Everyone learns differently. What works for someone else to learn might not work for you.


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## Tony Dismukes

Shai Hulud said:


> _Modern Japanese Jiu-Jitsu_? You could be looking at either Aikido or Judo, or even Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or Sambo if you consider the cousin arts that the Brazilians and the Russians have formulated themselves.


 If the OP is open to modern members of the jujutsu family from outside Japan, he might also consider Hapkido.


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## moonhill99

*Modern forms of jujutsu are not any less valid or "real" than older forms. *

What I mean by real is how much jujutsu are you getting example.

Some schools leave out some moves or some schools work on rear attack or 2 or 3 people coming at you to attack. Other schools leave these out. 

*They're just different.*

Some of the modern schools seem more closer to Judo like to me.

*An art created according to the cultural norms and practical requirements of 17th century Japan is going to be different from an art created according to the cultural norms and practical requirements of mid-20th century England.*

If they add in boxing strikes or MMA strikes they should not call them self jujutsu. I looked at some of older styles like Yoshin Ryu and the video the other person posted it looks a lot more similar too Aikido moves.

Where modern forms of jujutsu seem less Aikido moves and more Judo to me.


*As far as the possibility of schools being 'McDojos", it's always a possibility in any art. I'm not sure how you're making that judgment though. What do you mean by 'McDojo" and why do you suspect the schools near you might qualify?*

There is no jujutsu school in Miami or Fort Lauderdale. There is one in Haileah it looks strange.

Very disorganized,overcrowding on mat, people very close to one other, no belts, many uniforms some that look like street work out clothes like army pants and such.

Don't see to many moves.

Other one close to Miami called Bushido Florida at 9357 SW 56th. Street.

You said.

*Quote Don't see anything particularly McDojo-ish about this one. The jujutsu system in question is a modern eclectic system. It supposedly has a Japanese founder, but it still probably has more in common with modern eclectic Western jujutsu systems than it does with classical Japanese jujutsu. The instructor's 6th dan in the Kodokan is a good sign. My biggest objection is that they only have two classes per week. Quote*


School seems kinda of empty like they may close down soon. If there is less than 10 people in class that does not sound good. Even 10 people is low.

I don't see any video or any work he has done.




bushidoknights school.

*Quote Whatever that is, it's definitely not Japanese jujutsu. From the video, it looks like the instructor may be drawing more as much from FMA as anything else. Quote*

I agree it does not look jujutsu at all. It looks very odd.


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## moonhill99

If this is traditional Japanese jiu jitsu it looks way different and more similar to Aikido than Japanese jiu jitsu  today that looks more similar to Judo.


‪Jujutsu‬







‪Jujutsu‬





‪jujutsu‬






‪Jujutsu‬








What a lot of ‪Ju-Jutsu‬ look like today than looks more closer to Judo like

‪Ju-Jutsu 1. DAN Test‬








-------------
Types of Jujutsu Systems
Types of Jujutsu Systems


*Traditional: A brief list of some representative ryuha would be Hontai Yoshin-ryu, Takenouchi-ryu, Saigo-ryu Aiki-jujutsu, Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu, and Sosuishitsu-ryu, to name just a few.

Gendai (Modern): Example systems would be many of the modern systems that go by the name "jujutsu," but which do not have links to the traditional jujutsu systems (such as Miyama-ryu Jujutsu, Danzan-ryu Jujitsu, Senshin-ryu Goshin-jutsu, Budoshin Jujitsu, and Ketsugo-ryu Jujitsu).  

Modern Jujutsu systems, frequently called Goshin-jutsu, are based on the older traditional Jujutsu systems, but they were founded after 1867, and have a primary focus on self-defense tactics that are appropriate for modern civilian use.  These include defenses for grabs, chokes, defenses against knife, club, gun attacks to name a few.*

------------------


So it gets confusing for me. All this new and old and different types.


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## Tony Dismukes

moonhill99 said:


> What I mean by real is how much jujutsu are you getting example.
> 
> Some schools leave out some moves or some schools work on rear attack or 2 or 3 people coming at you to attack. Other schools leave these out.



I'm not sure what you mean by "leave out". There's not a master list anywhere of all the moves in "real" jujutsu that you can say a given school is "leaving out." No two systems (old or new) have the exact same curriculum.

Regardless, almost any decent jujutsu school will give you plenty of material to work on for a very long time.



moonhill99 said:


> Some of the modern schools seem more closer to Judo like to me.



Not surprising. Judo is a form of jujutsu, perhaps the first truly modern form. The majority of modern jujutsu systems are descended at least partially from judo.



moonhill99 said:


> If they add in boxing strikes or MMA strikes they should not call them self jujutsu.



Eh, some historical purists might agree with you. On the other hand, stealing from other arts is one of the main ways that martial arts evolve and new ones are created. The real question is whether the techniques that have been adopted from other sources are properly integrated into the system so they work harmoniously with the existing material.



moonhill99 said:


> There is one in Haileah it looks strange.
> 
> Very disorganized,overcrowding on mat, people very close to one other, no belts, many uniforms some that look like street work out clothes like army pants and such.
> 
> Don't see to many moves.



None of that would be markers of what is normally referred to as a McDojo or even necessarily a bad school. It might not be what you are looking for. Did you actually visit it or are you just looking at pictures?



moonhill99 said:


> School seems kinda of empty like they may close down soon. If there is less than 10 people in class that does not sound good. Even 10 people is low.



I certainly wouldn't assume any of that. Smaller classes are actually better for learning. You can get a lot more individual attention from the instructor.


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## Shai Hulud

Tony Dismukes said:


> If the OP is open to modern members of the jujutsu family from outside Japan, he might also consider Hapkido.


How could I have forgotten HKD.

_All the Miso-Zen-ness of Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, with the zesty tang of Korean Kimchi._


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## moonhill99

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "leave out". There's not a master list anywhere of all the moves in "real" jujutsu that you can say a given school is "leaving out." No two systems (old or new) have the exact same curriculum.
> 
> Regardless, almost any decent jujutsu school will give you plenty of material to work on for a very long time.




I don't mean that. My concern is McDojo schools where the curriculum will be half of her going for her Ju-Jutsu 1. DAN Test‬. Why?  Because the curriculum is short list what school teaches.


Or this Ju-Jutsu school in Jacksonville Florid that looks so McDojo. I have seen white belts do better and faster moves than these higher belts students!!!











School web site.

Kodenkan Jiu-Jitsu Jacksonville Florida home

There promote videos and web site don't look too impressive.


Yawn, I think I watch WWF and boxing, do better in street fight than these guys that move like snails and don't seem to do many moves.

*Eh, some historical purists might agree with you. On the other hand, stealing from other arts is one of the main ways that martial arts evolve and new ones are created. The real question is whether the techniques that have been adopted from other sources are properly integrated into the system so they work harmoniously with the existing material.*

What concerns me is school that say it is Ju-Jutsu but in reality you lucky to get 30% Ju-Jutsu and other percent some thing else.


Where if you go to Judo school, Brazilian jiujitsu, MMA or boxing school you get more solid foundation curriculum because that is fad these days, Where Japanese jiu jitsu does not seem popular in US so it is hard to find schools that alone good schools
*
There is one in Haileah it looks strange.

Very disorganized,overcrowding on mat, people very close to one other, no belts, many uniforms some that look like street work out clothes like army pants and such.*

*None of that would be markers of what is normally referred to as a McDojo or even necessarily a bad school. It might not be what you are looking for. Did you actually visit it or are you just looking at pictures?*


I don't feel comfortable going to school that is disorganized I cannot put faith in people that are disorganized. If your car and office is disorganized than your teaching may be disorganized.

And overcrowding on mat is safety corners for me.

no belts, many uniform just seems odd like it is a underground school. Well sure some schools may have white ,red or blue gi but this looks like a Halloween slide show.


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## pgsmith

I wasn't going to comment, but I just can't stand it any more.  

First, you keep going on about ju jutsu, both modern and traditional, and saying this looks like this and that doesn't look like you expect. Ju jutsu is a catch-all phrase for what you did in old Japan when your primary weapon (bow or spear) and secondary weapon (sword) were broken or unavailable. In a great many cases, it involved using your tertiary weapon (wakizashi or tanto, more often tanto) to poke the fellow once you got him down. They didn't generally have a lot of striking in the arts because they were meant to be used when your opponent was likely to be wearing armor on a battlefield (why would you be without your sword otherwise?) and striking him wasn't the best idea. For this reason, most incorporate throws and/or joint locks to momentarily immobilize the opponent before sticking him with your shoto. They can look tremendously different from one to another, so you cannot say this one looks like ju jutsu and this other one doesn't, it just doesn't work that way. In the modern world, ju jutsu has come to refer to any modern invented system which incorporates joint locks and/or throws in their curriculum. It may or may not come with a whole bunch of other stuff, and is only as good as whoever created the new art in the first place.

  I think you should be more concerned with the dojo atmosphere and whether it's some place you enjoy going to regularly. The only way to know that is to go there and see for yourself. Unless you are planning on a career in law enforcement or security (which have their own quirky requirements) then the odds of you actually using anything you learn is really very small. I personally know a great many people that have been doing martial arts for decades, and can count the number that have had to use what they learned on one hand (excluding the aforementioned LEOs and security folks).

  As I was told many years back ... "The hardest part about learning any martial art is going to the dojo regularly. If you can master that part, everything else will just happen".


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## Chris Parker

moonhill99 said:


> Note may be some members here into Japanese jiu jitsu section of this forum and really into jiu jitsu can explain this better.
> 
> 
> I'm looking for a Japanese jiu jitsu school in Florida and some members where saying most schools in the US are modern Japanese jiu jitsu also known modern eclectic Western jujutsu system. Saying it not that it is bad, it just really not really true jiu jitsu. Saying a  person takes bit of karate,Judo and jiu jitsu and slaps together system and call it Japanese jiu jitsu .
> 
> What is more scary is it a McDojo school or how much do they understand  jiu jitsu. If such a school is only teaching some of the jiu jitsu moves?
> 
> Some members where saying I should take Aikido and Judo to get better feel of the art. But Aikido and Judo came from jiu jitsu.
> 
> 
> It is really confusing understanding the different traditional Japanese jiu jitsu styles than the modern Japanese jiu jitsu.
> 
> Some of the Japanese jiu jitsu schools in Florida just seem to come of like McDojo schools to me or have no idea how to teach.



What?

Just read what Paul wrote.


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## moonhill99

*


pgsmith said:



			I wasn't going to comment, but I just can't stand it any more. 

First, you keep going on about ju jutsu, both modern and traditional, and saying this looks like this and that doesn't look like you expect.
		
Click to expand...

*
Paul I don't think it matters if it is modern Japanese jiu jitsu or traditional Japanese jiu jitsu .

I was under idea from many members and Cris pasts posts here of what is making Japanese jiu jitsu bad.

1.Is instructor calling it a Japanese jiu jitsu school when it is not really a Japanese jiu jitsu,  but 30% boxing ,40% Japanese jiu jitsu and some thing else.

So called modern eclectic western jujutsu


2. Or instructor not educated enough of on the history of Japanese jiu jitsu.

So called modern eclectic western jujutsu

*
Ju jutsu is a catch-all phrase for what you did in old Japan when your primary weapon (bow or spear) and secondary weapon (sword) were broken or unavailable. In a great many cases, it involved using your tertiary weapon (wakizashi or tanto, more often tanto) to poke the fellow once you got him down. They didn't generally have a lot of striking in the arts *

Than in that case modern eclectic western jujutsu with military combative rough style mix Japanese jiu jitsu may be more my thing.

But anyways, I can't be picking just fighting good Japanese jiu jitsu school being new or old or modern eclectic western jujutsu seems hard to find in Florida.


*because they were meant to be used when your opponent was likely to be wearing armor on a battlefield (why would you be without your sword otherwise?) and striking him wasn't the best idea. For this reason, most incorporate throws and/or joint locks to momentarily immobilize the opponent before sticking him with your shoto. *

Okay that explains why there is not much striking.



*They can look tremendously different from one to another, so you cannot say this one looks like ju jutsu and this other one doesn't, it just doesn't work that way. In the modern world, ju jutsu has come to refer to any modern invented system which incorporates joint locks and/or throws in their curriculum. It may or may not come with a whole bunch of other stuff, and is only as good as whoever created the new art in the first place.*

There are many different Japanese jiu jitsu but that was not reason members where saying modern eclectic western jujutsu.

So called modern eclectic western jujutsu

1.Is instructor calling it a Japanese jiu jitsu school when it is not really a Japanese jiu jitsu but 30% boxing ,40% Japanese jiu jitsu  and some thing else.

So called modern eclectic western jujutsu

2. Or instructor not educated enough of on the history of Japanese jiu jitsu.

Was this why it is bad.



*  I think you should be more concerned with the dojo atmosphere and whether it's some place you enjoy going to regularly. The only way to know that is to go there and see for yourself. Unless you are planning on a career in law enforcement or security (which have their own quirky requirements) then the odds of you actually using anything you learn is really very small. I personally know a great many people that have been doing martial arts for decades, and can count the number that have had to use what they learned on one hand (excluding the aforementioned LEOs and security folks).*

*  As I was told many years back ... "The hardest part about learning any martial art is going to the dojo regularly. If you can master that part, everything else will just happen".*

The school in Jacksonville Florid just screams McDojo to me.*

*


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## pgsmith

moonhill99 said:


> The school in Jacksonville Florid just screams McDojo to me.


  It may be, or it may not. I don't see enough BS on their pages to peg them as such myself. However, my point is that you have nothing to base your opinion on except internet reading and your own imaginings. Even if it *was* a genuine McDojo, going to training there would *still* be much better than just talking about it on the internet. 

  Good luck in your hunt!


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## Hanzou

> Brazilian: Representative systems would be Gracie Jiujitsu, and Machado Jiujitsu.
> 
> Brazilian Jiujitsu is not a traditional or even a modern Jujutsu system. Its foundation are based on Kodokan Judo, not traditional Jujutsu, and it primary focus is on no-holds-barred tournaments, not self-defense.



Yeah, just about all of that is wrong.


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## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, just about all of that is wrong.



Whats standing out to you as wrong? Aside from the self-defense bit, which has always been a point of contention and many schools only feed that stereotype.

 I dont know the full history of BJJ, but Maeda did traing in Kodokan Judo and held documented rank in Judo

Briefly looking into various biographies online, Maeda defeated Jujustu champs, but his training was in judo. So far i havent found anything linking his personal training to jujustu. I could be wrong but i thought at that time, judo was frequently called jujustu. You could make the connection that he learned JJ because Kano was his instructor though

are you debating the claim that BJJ isnt a traditional or modern JJ system? 

I've got no dogs in this fight or anything, but now my interest is sparked on the "is BJJ traditional JJ? Or is it not even Jujustu at all?" debate thats brewing and am curious to hear both sides.

Could be interesting


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## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> Whats standing out to you as wrong? Aside from the self-defense bit, which has always been a point of contention and many schools only feed that stereotype.
> 
> I dont know the full history of BJJ, but Maeda did traing in Kodokan Judo and held documented rank in Judo
> 
> Briefly looking into various biographies online, Maeda defeated Jujustu champs, but his training was in judo. So far i havent found anything linking his personal training to jujustu. I could be wrong but i thought at that time, judo was frequently called jujustu. You could make the connection that he learned JJ because Kano was his instructor though
> 
> are you debating the claim that BJJ isnt a traditional or modern JJ system?
> 
> I've got no dogs in this fight or anything, but now my interest is sparked on the "is BJJ traditional JJ? Or is it not even Jujustu at all?" debate thats brewing and am curious to hear both sides.
> 
> Could be interesting



Bjj is a modern form of jujutsu because it comes from jujutsu by way of Judo. Judo itself is considered a form of modern jujutsu. Heck, in Maeda's time Judo was called Kano Jiu-jitsu;

The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu Judo H. Irving Hancock Katsukuma Higashi 9780486443430 Amazon.com Books

So it's a bit odd to claim that Bjj isn't a form of jujutsu. 

And yes, the self defense bit is completely laughable, but it's not surprising considering the source.


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## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> Bjj is a modern form of jujutsu because it comes from jujutsu by way of Judo. Judo itself is considered a form of modern jujutsu. Heck, in Maeda's time Judo was called Kano Jiu-jitsu;
> 
> The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu Judo H. Irving Hancock Katsukuma Higashi 9780486443430 Amazon.com Books
> 
> So it's a bit odd to claim that Bjj isn't a form of jujutsu.
> 
> And yes, the self defense bit is completely laughable, but it's not surprising considering the source.



While i understand exactly what youre saying and mostly agree, to play the devils advocate.

Judo is very distinct from jiujitsu. Correlating BJJ as JJ because of its ties to a style that was changed a decent bit from JJ could be considered odd.

Better example would be TKD.

TKD comes from Karate, which comes from chinese Martial Arts. But we dont consider TKD\TSD modern CMA's do we?

About the SD part, yeah but some folks will always say that as long as many schools neglect SD in lieu of sport....it happens to any style that has both. 

    Like we cant still set up a kick, break a rib or jaw with a punch , or run an armbar.


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## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> While i understand exactly what youre saying and mostly agree, to play the devils advocate.
> 
> Judo is very distinct from jiujitsu. Correlating BJJ as JJ because of its ties to a style that was changed a decent bit from JJ could be considered odd.



While Judo is distinct from Jujutsu, it's still considered a modern form of Jujutsu. Further, Judo was mainly called Kano Jiu-Jitsu until the term "Judo" became popularized in Japan in 1925. Maeda left Japan long before that happened. So if the Japanese considered what they were doing a form of jujutsu, and Maeda believed he was doing a form of jujutsu, who are we to argue?



> Better example would be TKD.
> 
> TKD comes from Karate, which comes from chinese Martial Arts. But we dont consider TKD\TSD modern CMA's do we?



A fairly terrible comparison, because we have no idea what particular styles of CMA were the forerunners of Karate, or who the people were that transferred and transformed Kung Fu into Karate, and when they did it. All of it is murky and mysterious.

With Jujutsu, Judo, and Bjj, we know exactly who transferred and transformed classical jujutsu into Judo, and what styles were mainly used in that transformation. Further, the father of Bjj was a direct student of the individual who did it.



> About the SD part, yeah but some folks will always say that as long as many schools neglect SD in lieu of sport....it happens to any style that has both.



Except that's a pretty large assumption. There's plenty of Bjj schools that are competition heavy, but still provide very good to excellent self defense training.

It's also pretty silly to assume that a martial athlete wouldn't  have the tools to defend themselves if things go bad.


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## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> While Judo is distinct from Jujutsu, it's still considered a modern form of Jujutsu. Further, Judo was mainly called Kano Jiu-Jitsu until the term "Judo" became popularized in Japan in 1925. Maeda left Japan long before that happened. So if the Japanese considered what they were doing a form of jujutsu, and Maeda believed he was doing a form of jujutsu, who are we to argue?
> 
> 
> 
> A fairly terrible comparison, because we have no idea what particular styles of CMA were the forerunners of Karate, or who the people were that transferred and transformed Kung Fu into Karate, and when they did it. All of it is murky and mysterious.
> 
> With Jujutsu, Judo, and Bjj, we know exactly who transferred and transformed classical jujutsu into Judo, and what styles were mainly used in that transformation. Further, the father of Bjj was a direct student of the individual who did it.
> 
> 
> 
> Except that's a pretty large assumption. There's plenty of Bjj schools that are competition heavy, but still provide very good to excellent self defense training.
> 
> It's also pretty silly to assume that a martial athlete wouldn't  have the tools to defend themselves if things go bad.




Those are some good points.

To me, BJJ is like the sport TKD of the grappling world. 

We can still fairly easily trace it back to Karate,  buts its now its own distinct descendant discipline.

I wonder how OP will respond. hes had some odd opinions on JJ in general


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## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> Those are some good points.
> 
> To me, BJJ is like the sport TKD of the grappling world.
> 
> We can still fairly easily trace it back to Karate,  buts its now its own distinct descendant discipline.
> 
> I wonder how OP will respond. hes had some odd opinions on JJ in general




Actually, Judo would be the TKD of the grappling world. Bjj isn't heavily influenced by its sport side, or a large governing body.  A lot of Judo has been removed in order to facilitate its competitive side. There was actually a video showing all the techniques no longer taught in Judo because they were banned by the IJF. For example, you would rarely if ever go into a Bjj school and not be allowed to do a double leg takedown while rolling. However, that's the case in quite a few Judo dojos.

Also Judo and TKD are both Olympic sports.


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## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> Actually, Judo would be the TKD of the grappling world. Bjj isn't heavily influenced by its sport side, or a large governing body.  A lot of Judo has been removed in order to facilitate its competitive side. There was actually a video showing all the techniques no longer taught in Judo because they were banned by the IJF. For example, you would rarely if ever go into a Bjj school and not be allowed to do a double leg takedown while rolling. However, that's the case in quite a few Judo dojos.
> 
> Also Judo and TKD are both Olympic sports.



Well i was going for the "very distinct but wasily traceable" aspect.  Although, ITF would probably be the better examply than Kukki TKD.


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## moonhill99

Hanzou said:


> Actually, Judo would be the TKD of the grappling world. Bjj isn't heavily influenced by its sport side, or a large governing body.  *A lot of Judo has been removed in order to facilitate its competitive side. There was actually a video showing all the techniques no longer taught in Judo* because they were banned by the IJF. For example, you would rarely if ever go into a Bjj school and not be allowed to do a double leg takedown while rolling. However, that's the case in quite a few Judo dojos.
> 
> Also Judo and TKD are both Olympic sports.



I'm not aware of any techniques no longer being taught in Judo. 

If there is any school out there giving a water down version of Judo it is probably because of the high number of people getting Knee injuries.

Judo or Japanese jiu jitsu has high number of people getting Knee injuries.

Also Judo or Japanese jiu jitsu can be hard on your hip too.


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## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> Well i was going for the "very distinct but wasily traceable" aspect.  Although, ITF would probably be the better examply than Kukki TKD.



Well are the Koreans even admitting that TKD came from Japanese Karate? Last I checked, they were still claiming it came from some ancient Korean art instead of Shotokan.


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## Hanzou

moonhill99 said:


> I'm not aware of any techniques no longer being taught in Judo.








Definitely isn't a universal thing, but there are clubs out there that won't teach techniques that are banned from competition.


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## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> Well are the Koreans even admitting that TKD came from Japanese Karate? Last I checked, they were still claiming it came from some ancient Korean art instead of Shotokan.



Ive never heard the ones ive met say it came solely from Taekkyon (the most common korean part of the tkd equation). Although thats not to say other Korean masters dont. 

Technically it didnt quite come from shotokan either, some came from okinawan. 

The founders of the 9 kwans had different training, there wasnt a standard blending of styles.


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## Hanzou

I should also point out that Mizukan Ryu is exactly like Bjj in that it's a modern, eclectic martial art with roots in Japanese Jujutsu. I find it odd that the author of that article would say that Bjj isn't jujutsu simply because the Brazilians didn't adopt Japanese culture along with the Japanese techniques.

Okay, I don't really find it odd at all....


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## Chris Parker

Mizukan Ryu? Do you mean Miyama Ryu? Or the Mizukan Dojo, teaching Senshin Ryu?


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## Tony Dismukes

moonhill99 said:


> I have seen white belts do better and faster moves than these higher belts students!!!



Other than the instructor, there are no advanced belts in that video. It looks like a beginners class. Anyway, "fast" is not what you should be looking for. The purpose of drilling techniques like that is to develop correct form. Speed comes later.



moonhill99 said:


> The school in Jacksonville Florid just screams *McDojo* to me.



You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


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## Hanzou

Chris Parker said:


> Mizukan Ryu? Do you mean Miyama Ryu? Or the Mizukan Dojo, teaching Senshin Ryu?



Whoops! Misread the website.


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## moonhill99

Tony Dismukes said:


> Other than the instructor, there are no advanced belts in that video. It looks like a beginners class. Anyway, "fast" is not what you should be looking for. The purpose of drilling techniques like that is to develop correct form. Speed comes later.
> 
> 
> 
> You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.



Tony the reason why I said the school look like *McDojo.*

1. I'm not impressed with their promote videos.

2. I seen enough clips of other schools of white belts do these moves faster and more crisp than this school!! Even higher belts here are struggling to do these moves.

3. There not showing many moves.

 To me it looks like school just trying to make money or the instructor is not that good.

This is some thing I will not spend money or my time when there are better schools in else where.

If that schools wants more people to sign up they should post better promote videos, show of more moves and better techniques.


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## Steve

I'm just wondering what machado Jiu jitsu is.   I mean certainly I know about the machado bros.  but there is no meaningful distinction to make.


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## Spinedoc

moonhill99 said:


> Tony the reason why I said the school look like *McDojo.*
> 
> 1. I'm not impressed with their promote videos.
> 
> 2. I seen enough clips of other schools of white belts do these moves faster and more crisp than this school!! Even higher belts here are struggling to do these moves.
> 
> 3. There not showing many moves.
> 
> To me it looks like school just trying to make money or the instructor is not that good.
> 
> This is some thing I will not spend money or my time when there are better schools in else where.
> 
> If that schools wants more people to sign up they should post better promote videos, show of more moves and better techniques.




Again, speed doesn't matter. In fact, we tell people to go real slow for a long time. Most people who try to rush techniques too quickly before they are ready exhibit poor form and poor execution. Better to go slow, take your time, and really learn the technique. Speed comes later. Much, much, much later.


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## moonhill99

Spinedoc said:


> Again, speed doesn't matter. In fact, we tell people to go real slow for a long time. Most people who try to rush techniques too quickly before they are ready exhibit poor form and poor execution. Better to go slow, take your time, and really learn the technique. Speed comes later. Much, much, much later.



There is difference of trying to do some thing and you are struggling than going slow to make sure you doing it right.

And higher belts should not be struggling and going so slow.

Also they should not be using a inexperienced students for a promote videos.

Look at Hapkido promote video how much better there promote videos are!!

And well it probably take 5 to 10 in those countries ( may be 10 to 15 years using westerns standards ) years to get that good. But if shows you could get that good at that school as higher belts are doing that.






What schools would I pick. Yes if that Hapkido school was in same areas has the other one I would take the Hapkido school.


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## Drose427

moonhill99 said:


> There is difference of trying to do some thing and you are struggling than going slow to make sure you doing it right.
> 
> And higher belts should not be struggling and going so slow.
> 
> Also they should not be using a inexperienced students for a promote videos.
> 
> Look at Hapkido promote video how much better there promote videos are!!
> 
> And well it probably take 5 to 10 in those countries ( may be 10 to 15 years using westerns standards ) years to get that good. But if shows you could get that good at that school as higher belts are doing that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What schools would I pick. Yes if that Hapkido school was in same areas has the other one I would take the Hapkido school.



Im not sure why you think there are any advanced belts in the video......

Theyre all very clearly wearing white belts with a few what looked to be blue or brown belts, which arent advanced in several grappling schools...

you seem fairly inexeperienced, which is fine! But instead of calling everything a Mcdojo or arguing, listen to what the folks here who have been trying to help havw to say.


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## Tony Dismukes

moonhill99 said:


> Tony the reason why I said the school look like *McDojo.*
> 
> 1. I'm not impressed with their promote videos.
> 
> 2. I seen enough clips of other schools of white belts do these moves faster and more crisp than this school!! Even higher belts here are struggling to do these moves.
> 
> 3. There not showing many moves.
> 
> To me it looks like school just trying to make money or the instructor is not that good.
> 
> This is some thing I will not spend money or my time when there are better schools in else where.
> 
> If that schools wants more people to sign up they should post better promote videos, show of more moves and better techniques.



1) What exactly is your martial arts experience that you are using to judge the performance in the videos?
2) As I mentioned before, speed is not the criteria for judging practice. This is not a demo where the practitioners are performing to impress. It's footage from a beginners class showing the learning process.
3) "Not showing many moves" is totally not any sort of useful criteria for judging the video or the school. The video is not trying to show anything close to the full curriculum for the school. It's trying to show a typical class experience. Odds are, you would (and should) cover _less_ material than that in a given class. The instructor probably threw 2-3 classes worth of material into the video just to add some variety. I can guarantee you the instructor knows and teaches a _lot_ more material than you are seeing in those short videos.

Judging from the video I'd say the instructor is a competent black belt from a Danzan Ryu background who has added a bit of boxing and BJJ into the syllabus. I'd recommend checking out his higher ranked students to judge how well he passes on his skills, but you'd have to visit the school for that, since the video only shows a beginners class.

"McDojo" generally refers to a business model based on extracting maximum cash from the student while providing sub-par instruction. The classic example would be a school that awards black belts to 8 year olds while charging their parents thousands of dollars for the process. Whether or not this school appeals to you, there's no evidence for it meeting that criteria.


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## Tony Dismukes

moonhill99 said:


> Also they should not be using a inexperienced students for a promote videos.
> 
> Look at Hapkido promote video how much better there promote videos are!!



There is a huge difference between a demo (where the practitioners are _performing_ polished techniques in order to impress) and a class (where the students are _learning_ the material.)

Also, the hapkido video you posted featured experienced, athletic black belts who are probably part of a demo team that practices specifically for that sort of impressive choreography. The Kodenkan video featured beginner students ranging from kids to senior citizens who were definitely not part of a demo team.

I guarantee that if you want to reach the level of the folks in the Hapkido demo video, you will spend a lot of years looking like the students in the Kodenkan class video first.



Drose427 said:


> Im not sure why you think there are any advanced belts in the video......
> 
> Theyre all very clearly wearing white belts with a few what looked to be blue or brown belts, which arent advanced in several grappling schools...



No brown belts that I saw. Apart from the instructor, there was a yellow belt, a green belt, and a couple of blue belts. Assuming the school follows normal Danzan Ryu promotion guidelines, they might all have less than a year of training.


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## moonhill99

Tony Dismukes said:


> 1) What exactly is your martial arts experience that you are using to judge the performance in the videos?
> 2) As I mentioned before, speed is not the criteria for judging practice. This is not a demo where the practitioners are performing to impress. It's footage from a beginners class showing the learning process.
> 3) "Not showing many moves" is totally not any sort of useful criteria for judging the video or the school. The video is not trying to show anything close to the full curriculum for the school. It's trying to show a typical class experience. Odds are, you would (and should) cover _less_ material than that in a given class. The instructor probably threw 2-3 classes worth of material into the video just to add some variety. I can guarantee you the instructor knows and teaches a _lot_ more material than you are seeing in those short videos.
> 
> Judging from the video I'd say the instructor is a competent black belt from a Danzan Ryu background who has added a bit of boxing and BJJ into the syllabus. I'd recommend checking out his higher ranked students to judge how well he passes on his skills, but you'd have to visit the school for that, since the video only shows a beginners class.
> 
> "McDojo" generally refers to a business model based on extracting maximum cash from the student while providing sub-par instruction. The classic example would be a school that awards black belts to 8 year olds while charging their parents thousands of dollars for the process. Whether or not this school appeals to you, there's no evidence for it meeting that criteria.



Tony I'm not disputing I may have see school in person to get feel if it is good or not. May be they just got some bad inexperienced students for the promote videos. May be students with 5 years or more can do some really impressive moves like the Hapkido promote videos.

All I was saying is I seen other schools put up more impressive promote videos like the Tampa school that gives you the wow factor I want to train there ASAP.

Anyways I was just using the Jacksonville school as a example.

And anyways I don't know the big deal about it both the Tampa school or Jacksonville school are not in south east Florida.

I was looking for schools in south east Florida closer to Miami.

I just used these schools I came across doing a search.

If I moved to Tampa I probably would take school in Tampa .


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## Instructor

Hanzou said:


> Well are the Koreans even admitting that TKD came from Japanese Karate? Last I checked, they were still claiming it came from some ancient Korean art instead of Shotokan.


 
Not sure what the Koreans are saying but most of the folks in USA admit it freely.


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## Spinedoc

I would also just add to be careful with using belt color to evaluate anything. In aikido, there are no colored belts. You are a white belt, until you are a black belt, and then you wear a hakama. SO, if you are not yudansha, in most aikido systems, you will be a white belt. Which means you can have a 1st kyu who is pretty advanced and can probably put you down, who will be wearing a white belt.

Belt color only means something if the art you practice says it does. It's not universal.


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## Instructor

In my school we use the belt system to track progress but if you come to my class you'll notice nobody is actually wearing colored belts. LOL


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## Tony Dismukes

moonhill99 said:


> All I was saying is I seen other schools put up more impressive promote videos like the Tampa school that gives you the wow factor I want to train there ASAP.


Yeah, that's why many schools do that sort of demo team presentation - to wow the audience and bring in the students. The Kodenkan guy went a different route - showing what your actual classes would be like if you sign up. It may not be as good from an advertising standpoint, but it's actually more honest. Even if you were to sign up for the Hapkido school, you would spend a lot of years slowly struggling through the basics like the students in the Kodenkan video before you ever got to do those fancy demos.


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## AlexMaster

moonhill99 said:


> Note may be some members here into Japanese jiu jitsu section of this forum and really into jiu jitsu can explain this better.
> 
> 
> I'm looking for a Japanese jiu jitsu school in Florida and some members where saying most schools in the US are modern Japanese jiu jitsu also known modern eclectic Western jujutsu system. Saying it not that it is bad, it just really not really true jiu jitsu. Saying a  person takes bit of karate,Judo and jiu jitsu and slaps together system and call it Japanese jiu jitsu .
> 
> What is more scary is it a McDojo school or how much do they understand  jiu jitsu. If such a school is only teaching some of the jiu jitsu moves?
> 
> Some members where saying I should take Aikido and Judo to get better feel of the art. But Aikido and Judo came from jiu jitsu.
> 
> 
> It is really confusing understanding the different traditional Japanese jiu jitsu styles than the modern Japanese jiu jitsu.
> 
> Some of the Japanese jiu jitsu schools in Florida just seem to come of like McDojo schools to me or have no idea how to teach.



In our city there is a Ju-jitsu section. This is Bushinkay International, what you can say? It is worthy school for my child? Джиу-Джитсу Подольск


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## Tony Dismukes

AlexMaster said:


> In our city there is a Ju-jitsu section. This is Bushinkay International, what you can say? It is worthy school for my child? Джиу-Джитсу Подольск


The instructor is a master of sports in Sombo and is dan ranked in Judo and Aikido as well as what I believe is a modern form of jujutsu. Looks solid in terms of qualifications. You'll have to visit the school to see if the teaching environment is good for your child.


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## Chris Parker

AlexMaster said:


> In our city there is a Ju-jitsu section. This is Bushinkay International, what you can say? It is worthy school for my child? Джиу-Джитсу Подольск



Hmm, what can I say?

Not much. I don't read the language that the site is in… and it certainly isn't anything like classical Japanese Jujutsu… rather, it is (as Tony said) a modern amalgam of a couple of different grappling systems. Is if "worthy" for you child? How would we know? We don't know your kid, how old they are, what they're interested in, what perspective and understanding they come from, if they even want to train in martial arts, why they would want to train, or even if it's a boy or girl. The only one who can have anything close to a clue about any of that is you… take the kid along to the class, watch (or join in), and see how they feel about it. See if the school has a dedicated childs class (depending on the age of the kid)… see if they do competitions (likely)… and if that's something your kid is after. Really, this is like asking us if a particular restaurant halfway round the world, where we can't read the menu, is good for your family. We don't have a clue.


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## Tony Dismukes

Chris Parker said:


> I don't read the language that the site is in


Google translate actually does a pretty good job on the site.


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## oaktree

To the original poster even though it's been a while there are actually classical jujutsu and other koryu in the areas of ft Lauderdale and in Miami. Maybe try Google or pm me.


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## MAfreak

judo and bjj, which picked up just the grappling parts of jujutsu, wouldn't be the nearest thing to it. aikido has grappling, but focused on wristlocks and few throws and sword, but also far from jujutsu i'd say. closest thing in my opinion would be the german jujutsu (just mention it, since i guess not many people around the world ever heard of it) and the korean art hapkido which also uses striking, grappling with (at least a bit of) ground fighting and traditional weapons like staff and sword.


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