# best styles for self defense



## drummingman (Jan 17, 2007)

i have been looking into karate for some time now and i know there are a lot of styls out there.i was wondering what dtyles are best for self defense? i don't care about sport karate and thats not what i want to study.im looking for the style/styles that teach real self defense.
some of the styles that i know are american goju ryu(as well as other styles of goju ryu) isshin ruy,uchi ryu,shotokan,shito ryu,wado ryu.
the styles that are taught close to where i work that i know of are american goju ryu and shito ryu.im sure that i could find more if i look.


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## cstanley (Jan 17, 2007)

It isn't the style, it is the teacher/school. All of them can teach you what you need for self-defense. Check the schools out and go with the one that seems to fit you best.


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## drummingman (Jan 17, 2007)

but is not for instance shotokan sport karate? at least what i have read said so so i just figured that it would not be good for street slef defense.


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## Haze (Jan 17, 2007)

Street self defense,,,,,,,,,,,,learn to fight standing up and learn to fight on the ground. Try some Muay Tai and BJJ.
No matter what you know, if you are not aware of your suroundings and someone catches you off guard you may be going down. Most self defense is mental preperation. Avoiding certain situations, Being aware of things around you, Being able to read peoples body language, etc.

See whats available in your area and visit each school. Then decide what you are interested in and do it.


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## terryl965 (Jan 17, 2007)

I have said this for thirty years no matter what style it is more about you and the people you train with, remember the style is only as good as the person proforming the techniques.


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## MJS (Jan 17, 2007)

I agree with Haze and Terry!  I've said the same thing many times myself...it comes down to how the person trains.  

Check out the schools in your area.  Ask questions.  If they meet what you're looking for, give it a shot.

Mike


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## jtbdad (Jan 17, 2007)

I pretty much agree with the rest here.  Back in the 70's there were alot of arguments about which is best.  Not so much anymore. (although a lot of MMA folks still can get worked up about this)  I think most people agree that in depth study of any martial art should also include working with other arts.  For example I am primarily a Shorin Ryu practitioner yet I have studied Judo throws and grappling (and have incorporated them in my training) Kenpo self defense techniques, (Some of which are just awesome) Police baton training, Iron Tiger Kung Fu etc.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 17, 2007)

I agree its the teacher not the style.  Goju Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Isshin Ryu, Shito Ryu, Wado Ryu among many others have the depth you need for real self defense.  Its up to the Sensei to be able to actually teach it to you.


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## exile (Jan 17, 2007)

drummingman said:


> but is not for instance shotokan sport karate? at least what i have read said so so i just figured that it would not be good for street slef defense.



The Japanese special tactical police units (like our SWAT teams, except even more so) train in Shotokan, drummingman. So don't worry that Shotokan isn't a full-scale combat art. There is a thread titled `Police Shotokan' that was up on MT during the autumn, don't remember just when, which contained footage of officers training at the police dojo, and you've never seen such severe combat `practice' in your lifeI'm not kidding, you have to see this video, and listent to the police instructor's commentary, before you jump to any conclusions about Shotokan. Trained correctlyand this is the point that Terry and the other people who've already posted are stressing, correctly, because it's such a deep mistake to confuse the technical resources of the system with training. I see this all the time with TKD, which gets a similar bad rep to certain karate styles, for similar reasons (except on a larger scale, because of its Olympic status)but which is just as severe and damaging a fighting system as Shotokan or any other combat-trained style of karate (most of the technical content is actually the _same_). 

My friendly `challenge' to you:  find that `Police Shotokan' vid in our archives (you should be able to find it with the Search feature, I think; if you have trouble, Support should be able to help), watch it a couple of times, and let me know what  you think, eh?  I'm not saying you should train Shotokan in particular, but don't cut yourself off from any possibly very effective system on the basis of an undeserved reputation for combat-useless flashiness...


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 17, 2007)

Keep in mind the Okinawan and Japanese along with the Koreans and Chinese all train much harder typically then most anyone else in the world.  The reason being is the mindset is different than the western world.  They will show you just how effective any of their ryu-ha is.


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## exile (Jan 17, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> Keep in mind the Okinawan and Japanese along with the Koreans and Chinese all train much harder typically then most anyone else in the world.  The reason being is the mindset is different than the western world.  They will show you just how effective any of their ryu-ha is.



Yesthat's the thing: you can do what they do but only if you can find someone who's willing to help you train to that level. So maybe the question should be, what MA styles have schools which are most likely to train you to a very tough level of self-defense using hard combat-sparring methods? That takes the burden off the art itself (which has almost everything you need, if you knew how to use it) and puts it back in the realm of practical application, and the attached social factors, where it belongs. 

I don't know that anyone's ever collected comprehensive enough data on the point to be able to give a reliable answer to the question, though....


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## drummingman (Jan 17, 2007)

well the schools in my area that im looking at are american goju ryu and shito ryu.im looking more at the american goju ryu school because it works better for me time wise.what do you all think about american goju ryu katare for self defense? also,what do you think of shito ryu for self defense?


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 17, 2007)

Don't know enough about it personally.


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## exile (Jan 17, 2007)

drummingman said:


> what do you all think about american goju ryu katare for self defense? also,what do you think of shito ryu for self defense?



Againevery style of karate was designed and built for self defense. When you talk about goju ryu (even the American version) and shito ryo, you're talking about Okinawan styles, or styles directly based on the Okinawan, and those styles have tremendous martial/combat technical content. But will that be the focus and direction of your training? Only if your instructor stresses that aspect of it and uses a realistic, hard-edged training regime. 

Drummingman, there's no way around it, you have to do a side-by-side comparison and you have to talk candidly with the instructional staff at any of the schools you're considering. What you need convey _to_ them is that you're not interested in sport, you're interested in close quarters combat with street applicability. What you need to get _from_ them (with a certain amount of reading between the lines, so to speak) is just how much commitment they have to that program. Get them to spell out for you just how their curriculum works and at what stage, and in what manner, you train for realistic fighting apps of the technical content you'll be learning. Get explicit answers from them with as much _detail_ as you can.


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## cstanley (Jan 18, 2007)

Anyone serious about self-defense in today's world needs to purchase a handgun and learn how to use it. Karate, traditional karate anyway, should not be pursued merely as self-defense. Self-defense is a by-product of learning a much deeper, multi-faceted art. If self-defence and fighting are your primary interest, then no karate style is going to satisfy you.


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## Cirdan (Jan 18, 2007)

cstanley said:


> Anyone serious about self-defense in today's world needs to purchase a handgun and learn how to use it. Karate, traditional karate anyway, should not be pursued merely as self-defense. Self-defense is a by-product of learning a much deeper, multi-faceted art. If self-defence and fighting are your primary interest, then no karate style is going to satisfy you.


 
I disagree. Not all places are _that_ violent yet.


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## exile (Jan 18, 2007)

cstanley said:


> Anyone serious about self-defense in today's world needs to purchase a handgun and learn how to use it. Karate, traditional karate anyway, should not be pursued merely as self-defense. Self-defense is a by-product of learning a much deeper, multi-faceted art. If self-defence and fighting are your primary interest, then no karate style is going to satisfy you.



Like Cirdan, I also disagree, but for a somewhat different reason. Take a look at that `Police Shotokan' video that was the subject of a thread this past autumn on MTthe startup post gives the URLand consider whether someone who really wanted to learn effective CQ combat skills would disdain the system that those Japanese SWAT guys use (and train under essentially real-world conditions, nothing pulled, nothing held back, full force strikes to head and groin, etc). Consider also that the military TKD the ROK troops learn is intended for combat use when a weapon isn't available, and that there is solid documentation of its lethally effective useliterallyby Korean troops in two warsthe Korean and Vietnamese conflicts. And those are both about as `traditional' MAs as you can get.

I just don't see the basis of statements that karate is ineffective for CQ self-defense, given cases like these, where real-world military and tactical police units choose karate-based styles as the core of their H2H training. If you train for effectively damaging application of these MAs under realistic conditions, then you will _get_ the ability to apply them that way under those conditions. The fact that not many people have the stomach to train that harshly isn't a reflection on the arts themselves, but rather on most people's reluctance to generate the level of violence required for these arts to be effective as H2H defense systems.


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## MJS (Jan 18, 2007)

cstanley said:


> Anyone serious about self-defense in today's world needs to purchase a handgun and learn how to use it. Karate, traditional karate anyway, should not be pursued merely as self-defense. Self-defense is a by-product of learning a much deeper, multi-faceted art. If self-defence and fighting are your primary interest, then no karate style is going to satisfy you.


 
While a handgun is a good SD tool, its limited in what it can do.  I think an important question you should be asking is, "Is every SD situation I find myself in, going to warrant the use of a gun?"  

Mike


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## chinto01 (Jan 18, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> I have said this for thirty years no matter what style it is more about you and the people you train with, remember the style is only as good as the person proforming the techniques.




I agree 110% !

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob


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## twendkata71 (Jan 18, 2007)

While someone looking for just streetwise selfdefense may not be interested in karate do. If you are willing to put the time in to karate do training, not only will you learn effective self defense, but you will also learn more about yourself and how to avoid putting yourself into situations that would warrent self protection. Many people walk into a dojo and would not understand the culture of karate do. It is more about personal development. but, it is also about self defense.  It takes time and patience. If you do not have the patience then pehaps you should look at Krav Maga. Or some other eclectic self protection. Buyer beware though you get what you pay for. If you learn fighting skills without any sort of foundation, you may find that your techniques are ineffective and weak. 
On the question of Shotokan, Many Shotokan schools are geared towards sport karate do. But, not all Shotokan sensei are for sport.
Shito ryu karate do many times is also geared toward sport karate. but, you may find that Shito ryu is a style with much depth, if you are willing to put your time into it. Just like any system or style of karate may have what you want if you are willing to put the time in, have patience and study seriously.  Another style you may want to check out if in your area is Bando. It is very effective, but  you do have to put the time into learning. It is not an overnight course.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 18, 2007)

To Twendkata: :asian: :mst:


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## Iron Leopard (Jan 18, 2007)

I'm biased of course but I really believe that Kempo andy style is the best for street self defense and of kempo, SKK is the best!  Make sure that your instructor teaches some ground fighting as well!


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## twendkata71 (Jan 18, 2007)

Oh yes Kempo/ or kenpo is very effective, but also not an overnight course. Very effective, but you can't really master self defense in a 6 week course.  The current trend now is to do the MMA. The problem with that is if you watch these MMA fighters they are good, but it takes them forever to get the technique initiated and then it  takes them longer to finish. On the street you don't have time to tie up with the assailant on the ground, especially if he is not alone, which is usually the case. 
I believe that is was the karate master Matsumura that stated "karate is for fighting four or more opponents, not one". I am not %100 word for word on that quote, but it is something to that effect. I will look it up.  Originally karate was only designed for life and death situations, the Ancient Okinawans didn't have time for the frevolity of recreational karate(Unchinadi/Te) it was for survival and personally development. There was no sport. Traditional karate/ or Martial arts from China,Okinawa,Japan and Korea were developed for this and if you find the right sensei, sifu, kwanjanim,etc. you will find your effective self defense. You get out what you put into karate,kenpo, gong fu,jujitsu,taekwondo,tangsoodo,etc. 
In my opinion, the style that fits your body and your needs as a person is the best style for self defense. No matter where it comes from, I am just biased towards the Japanese and Okinawan ones. Good luck on your search, or journey.


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## exile (Jan 18, 2007)

twendkata71 said:


> Originally karate was only designed for life and death situations, the Ancient Okinawans didn't have time for the frevolity of recreational karate(Unchinadi/Te) it was for survival and personally development. There was no sport. Traditional karate/ or Martial arts from China,Okinawa,Japan and Korea were developed for this and if you find the right sensei, sifu, kwanjanim,etc. you will find your effective self defense. You get out what you put into karate,kenpo, gong fu,jujitsu,taekwondo,tangsoodo,etc.
> 
> In my opinion, the style that fits your body and your needs as a person is the best style for self defense. No matter where it comes from, I am just biased towards the Japanese and Okinawan ones. Good luck on your search, or journey.



Twendkata's point here is really at the heart of the answer to your question, drummingman; you really need to take it seriously and think about your training and choice of a MA for self-defense in these terms. As a number of us have been telling you, _any_ TMA has very effective self defense applications. But you have to train it that way. And in order to train it, you have to really _like_ it. People have all kinds of reasonsphysical, aesthetic, philosophicalfor preferring one kind of MA over another; you have to try a few and see what inspires you. No matter how effective it is, you won't train it if you don't really like it. Once you find an art you like, you _must_ make sure that the school emphasizes the self-defense aspect of it. Don't assume they do; ask them point blank how much emphasis they place on close-quarter defensive application of the art. 

And that's really all anyone can tell you, I think. The rest is up to you...


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 18, 2007)

Aah the american way, get a quick fix to everything.  There is no quick fix for self defense or even sport ma for that matter.  But competitions have rules and the street has none.  I will take my years of karate over any quick fix.


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## Rook (Jan 18, 2007)

drummingman said:


> i have been looking into karate for some time now and i know there are a lot of styls out there.i was wondering what dtyles are best for self defense? i don't care about sport karate and thats not what i want to study.im looking for the style/styles that teach real self defense.
> some of the styles that i know are american goju ryu(as well as other styles of goju ryu) isshin ruy,uchi ryu,shotokan,shito ryu,wado ryu.
> the styles that are taught close to where i work that i know of are american goju ryu and shito ryu.im sure that i could find more if i look.


 
You should look at the training methods rather than the particular style.  It is one of the traits of karate today to have a great deal of variation within what is nominally a cohesive system, and the practices vary widely between schools in the same system.  

Things you should look for:

1.  Kata is broken down into steps and used for actual teaching, rather than as an exercise or demonstration.  

2.  Sparring is frequent and high levels of contact is tolerated.  

3.  The students are experianced.  Karate dojos frequently have a high turnover rate, and you want a group where there are some experianced people.  

4.  The instructor is respectful to his or her students and not an authoritarian jerk.  (The strong connection between the Japanese military and Japanese karate prior to WWII has influenced karate culture... don't stick around to work with a pompous self-important prick with a fancy belt who has taken the culture of discipline and respect as a carte blanche to treat people like crap.)  If you are wondering why the teacher's personality is related to self defense, realize that you won't get much help from someone who prides himself on his ability to demean others.  

5.  Not much point sparring.  Some karate schools no longer teach much of anything but point sparring, and this is of little value for self defense.  

A word on "sport karate" - the term can refer to either point sparring sport karate, as many shotokan dojos have become, or full contact kickboxing sport karate, like kyokushin, enshin, ashihara and others.  The two are entirely different sports and the criticisms of either one do not apply to the other.  The latter has some very good self defense.  The kyokushin, ashihara and enshin systems have a strong reputation for integrity as well, so they should not be ruled out as pointless sport.


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## Rook (Jan 18, 2007)

twendkata71 said:


> Oh yes Kempo/ or kenpo is very effective, but also not an overnight course. Very effective, but you can't really master self defense in a 6 week course.




Agreed.  




> The current trend now is to do the MMA. The problem with that is if you watch these MMA fighters they are good, but it takes them forever to get the technique initiated and then it takes them longer to finish.


 
Realize that this is good matchmaking, not inability.  Two fighters of similar ability will ussually have to work for a time to attain supremacy.  Against a lesser fighter, fights can end very quickly.  




> On the street you don't have time to tie up with the assailant on the ground, especially if he is not alone, which is usually the case.





> I believe that is was the karate master Matsumura that stated "karate is for fighting four or more opponents, not one". I am not %100 word for word on that quote, but it is something to that effect. I will look it up.




I remember something to that effect as well.  




> Originally karate was only designed for life and death situations, the Ancient Okinawans didn't have time for the frevolity of recreational karate(Unchinadi/Te) it was for survival and personally development. There was no sport.


 
Hmm.  That doesn't seem to accord with what I have heard of history.  Tegumi (a sumo-like grappling competition) was a frequent source of competition among karateka going back.  Full out fights for status were not uncommon on Okinawa either, although I don't think they ever reached the same frequency as in Meiji Japan or nineteeth century China.


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## matt.m (Jan 18, 2007)

cstanley said:


> Anyone serious about self-defense in today's world needs to purchase a handgun and learn how to use it. Karate, traditional karate anyway, should not be pursued merely as self-defense. Self-defense is a by-product of learning a much deeper, multi-faceted art. If self-defence and fighting are your primary interest, then no karate style is going to satisfy you.


 

I disagree with the owning of the gun statement.  I am a former Marine with combat experience who shot expert in rifle and pistol.  So, the best self defense is awareness.  Period.  Those who are good are also confident.  These are the least likely to ever get into a fight.  I have not been in a fight since I was in the Marine Corps.  I have been out 10 yrs.  I have had multiple chances but didn't.  Not out of cowardice, but maturity and control.

If you feel you need a gun for self defense then you need to do two things: 1. change where you hang out
2. move

I was in D.C. once with some buds.  Someone in traffic acted like they were going to shoot us.  We showed our Marine Corps memoribillia and an M-16 magazine.  They took off like no ones business.  I can't tell you how many times I had the opportunity to fight at bars, dance clubs etc.  I found something better to do.

I honestly believe that fighting is stupid and that stupid people fight.  However, many people defend themselves.  I have 5 cane in my house and 2 pair of escrima, along with bat.  That is all I feel I need.


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## bigkicks (Jan 18, 2007)

i have to agree with the other people on this thread. It isn't the style or type it is the instructor and your team/class mates. The last place you want to go to is the ground in a street fight. so pickingan art that primarily trains on the ground would be a waste on time. BJJ is a beautiful art, and does have awsome takedowns, locks, and chokes, but with a good instructor, good sparing parnter, some sprawl and brawl tec's, you will be fine without it.  

You will find in your search that some instrcutors have never been in a street fight or have ahd close to none exposure to non- strutured sparring in the lifetime. stay away from those schools. you don't need a warrior school either but, someplace in the middle. Pick an instructor who teaches based on reality vs. text book tec's, if your soul interst is self defense.


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## drummingman (Jan 19, 2007)

well being a beginner how can i know for sure that what is taught at a school is the right thing? i am looking for real self defense and from what i have seen karate can provide that but i don't know how to tell if the head teacher is being stright up with me if he tells me that his school is all about real self defense.im sure there are a lot of teachers that will say anything to get someone to sign up and since i really won't know what im doing to start with he could be teaching me junk and i would not really know.some stuff im sure would be obvious that its junk but other stuff im not so sure.


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## Carol (Jan 19, 2007)

drummingman said:


> well being a beginner how can i know for sure that what is taught at a school is the right thing? i am looking for real self defense and from what i have seen karate can provide that but i don't know how to tell if the head teacher is being stright up with me if he tells me that his school is all about real self defense.im sure there are a lot of teachers that will say anything to get someone to sign up and since i really won't know what im doing to start with he could be teaching me junk and i would not really know.some stuff im sure would be obvious that its junk but other stuff im not so sure.


 
Check the lineage of the instructor.  Who did s/he learn from?  Who did they learn from?  What are the reputations of the people?

Don't sign a contract.  No one knows exactly what they are getting in to on day one.  Don't lock yourself in to something until you are sure.

Ask the potential instructor some direct questions.  How has the art changed from the way the elders have done it?  Many instructors will tell you...including instructors that have changed what they did.

Ask the fellow students.  How long have they been training there?  Does it make sense to you?  What are the yudansha like?  Have they earned their rank at a ridiculously early age or in a staggeringly short amount of time...or has it taken years of effort and dedication?  

How do the teacher and the students interact with you?  Everything is phenomenally difficult in the beginning...but how are you doing once you get the feel of things?  Do you find that you can learn under the instructor and in the environment?


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## searcher (Jan 19, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Don't sign a contract.


 
This is something I could not stress enough and I thank Carol Kaur for making that point.   If they are wanting you to sign a contract I have always felt this is a red flag.    I hate contracts and will never use them.


On the context of your orginal post.   You are going to be the one that willultimately decide how self-defense oriented you training will be.  I have some very good friends that train in schools that I consider to be shady, as it pertains to the instructor, but they are very good at "street defense."   You can make something good out of something bad if you work hard enough.   Once you have the basics down and you are learning the material they have to offer, you can start focusing on what you want to get out of the training.   Most schools can at least give you the basics and can help you refine them.   Big deal if somebody thinks the school is a joke, you can always go somewhere else to train.   It is not like you have to make a life decision.    I think that in today's society we are getting so scared of being ripped off that we are not allowing ourselves to live our own lives.   Don't be held back by this fear.   Like I already said, you can always change schools.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 19, 2007)

Contracts are ok depending on how they are worded.  I personally give a trial period and then the contract.  The contract I use is 3 months pay month by month.


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## twendkata71 (Jan 19, 2007)

Good post carol, yes, check the lineage, do some research on line and ask questions that the instructor should know if legitimate. Many times you can call their instructor directly to get a background on them.  But, in some cases, the break between the instructor and their instructor was so bad that any information from the former instructor may not be valid. Professional jealously can play a part.  When my teacher left his teacher in Japan, his teacher was so enraged that he wiped records of his certification out of the organization. I have seen the certificates with the Japanese Master's name signed and stamp on it.   Usually when you see them demonstrate their skills,you will get a feel if they are for real. You will also get positive feedback from their students. 
I now only teach to small groups, that way I know I have dedicated students, and I have the time to focus on each student personally. I feel that I owe it to them to give the best instruction, because they have given me their trust and dedication.  This is an important relationship between instructor and student. A good sensei will give time to each student, not just see them as another face and paycheck in their school. It also an awsome responsibilty for the student. The instructor is trusting that the student will not misuse the knowledge that he is imparting.


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## Cirdan (Jan 19, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> Contracts are ok depending on how they are worded.


 
I agree. I have trained at very respectable clubs that use contracts.


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## yumeiko (Mar 21, 2007)

When I first started martial arts the only thing on my mind was self-defense. The class that I joined at the time didn't have a problem with that, as they didn't go to competitions,but as time went on I found that I liked doing the sparring.
i have since then moved away from that area and in the area where i am living now i do shotokan karate, we do competitions through this club, but I try to look at them as training experience, because if you get into a fight on the street, the person you are facing isn't going to be your sparring partner (more than likely). Therefore, you need to go against people you haven't faught before and learn to adapt. As others have said, self-defense is a by-product.
I also do some jujutsu so that I also have some experience in on the ground grappling, so it is also benefitial (sorry can't spell), at least in my opinion, to do different types of martial arts, because they each teach something worth while.

good luck
^_^


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## Callandor (Mar 22, 2007)

Like what the others said, it's not the style but the training method employed (by the instructor). For instance, Shotokan can use a sport oriented training method which disregards techniques not allowed in the tournament rules. But it can also use a training method which develops the full spectrum of techniques for self defence including those which are illegal in competition. In this case, what made shotokan sport karate is the training method used not the fact that it's an inherently sport only style.

To Illustrate further the importance of training method as compared to a specific ma style, take a reverse punch, front and side kicks, and basic blocks.  If you use a training method which enables you to perfect those techniques to the point that you can execute them with destructive power and blinding speed, I believe that you will be more than able to defend yourself properly (assuming no weapons are used by the assailant). And since the above techniques are present in almost all striking oriented tma, style is not an issue. What enabled you to defend yourself was the training method, not the style.


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## Can (Mar 22, 2007)

drummingman said:


> but is not for instance shotokan sport karate? at least what i have read said so so i just figured that it would not be good for street slef defense.




Not if you find the right place.  Where in VA are you?


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## Grenadier (Mar 22, 2007)

Any style of Karate can be good for self-defense.  However, the style itself isn't going to be the sole determinant, as to whether training at a particular dojo is going to meet your needs.  

I know of many Shotokan Karate schools whose teachings would certainly put their students in better positions in a street fight, than say, the full contact schools would, and many Shotokan schools whose teachings are unsuitable for that purpose.  

There are many good Shotokan schools, and many bad ones, too.  You just have to look carefully, and take some time to talk with the teachers, students, etc.  In the end, it's up to you to make an informed decision based on what you see.  




Cirdan said:


> I agree. I have trained at very respectable clubs that use contracts.


 
I have no qualms about contracts, provided that you aren't forced to sign a long-term contract from day one.  If they let you sign a shorter term contract as a trial period, then that's fine by me.


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## chinto (Apr 18, 2007)

all styles of Karate are decended from the Okinawan styles, and they ere designed for self defence. they are very efficent in this respect and that is why they have survived and continued to be tought for that. But, like any skill or art it does take time to learn the skills and become some one who can aply the skill at need.


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## IWishToLearn (Apr 19, 2007)

cstanley said:


> It isn't the style, it is the teacher/school. All of them can teach you what you need for self-defense. Check the schools out and go with the one that seems to fit you best.



I disagree with the statement that all styles teach realistic self-defense. Far, far too many schools of traditional martial arts teach methods of self d that will simply put, get you hurt on the street. There is no reason to meet incoming force of an attack with equal forced blocks, especially if those blocks are taught in a way that utilizes inefficient use of body mechanics.


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## Brandon Fisher (Apr 19, 2007)

Not all traditional styles use force on force though.


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## kidswarrior (Apr 19, 2007)

Grenadier said:


> Any style of Karate can be good for self-defense.  However, the style itself isn't going to be the sole determinant, as to whether training at a particular dojo is going to meet your needs.
> 
> I know of many Shotokan Karate schools whose teachings would certainly put their students in better positions in a street fight, than say, the full contact schools would....
> 
> You just have to look carefully, and take some time to talk with the teachers, students, etc.  In the end, it's up to you to make an informed decision based on what you see.



I agree with most posters here, who mostly agree with each other, I think (more the school/instructor than style). I'll just add that all I know of Shotokan is that my daughter studied it in college, got to brown belt, and could do some damage if she wanted/had to. From watching her and her classmates train and compete, it could definitely be street-worthy.


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## IWishToLearn (Apr 20, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> Not all traditional styles use force on force though.


As I said, "far, far too many"...but not all. It's just more difficult to find one that doesn't.


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## twendkata71 (Apr 21, 2007)

I think that the problem arises when a traditional stylist fails to adapt to the situation and also if that person has a closed mind about learning from other styles. You have to be able to adapt to the situations reguardless of what style you practice.


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## Brandon Fisher (Apr 21, 2007)

twendkata71 said:


> I think that the problem arises when a traditional stylist fails to adapt to the situation and also if that person has a closed mind about learning from other styles. You have to be able to adapt to the situations reguardless of what style you practice.


Without a doubt.


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## chinto (Apr 21, 2007)

IWishToLearn said:


> I disagree with the statement that all styles teach realistic self-defense. Far, far too many schools of traditional martial arts teach methods of self d that will simply put, get you hurt on the street. There is no reason to meet incoming force of an attack with equal forced blocks, especially if those blocks are taught in a way that utilizes inefficient use of body mechanics.


 
I have to agree that the instructor is very very importent in that they have to know and be able to teach the system correctly. My point earlier is that all of the older styles of karate, especialy the okinawan styles were developed and tought for life and death self defence. like any thing else it can be tought incorectly and made in efficent or even inefective by some one. 
  However, if you are being tought by a sensei who has good credentials and training in the old unmodified kata of one of the older traditional karate styles it will work when you need it. BUT, it is not a 3 week course or even 3 months and you are some how able to efficently use the system any more then any other good system of unarmed combat, or even system of armed combat!


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## chinto (Apr 21, 2007)

oh by the way older styles when tought correctly do not meet force directly with force, well at least the okinawan styles do not. there are soft blocks and ti sabaki to get you out of the way. you must always use your head and not just your body in any self defence situation.


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## chinto (May 21, 2007)

MJS said:


> While a handgun is a good SD tool, its limited in what it can do. I think an important question you should be asking is, "Is every SD situation I find myself in, going to warrant the use of a gun?"
> 
> Mike


 
absolutly true! also remember there are places you may not carry a fire arm of any kind ( licenced to carry concealed or not) into. also please remember that a gun is not and never has been a magic wand! it is a tool to drill holes in things at a distance. so if its not a situation that warrants the drilling of a very posibly fatal hole in some one then useing one would very posibly leave you worse off then not having one.


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## chinto (May 21, 2007)

twendkata71 said:


> Good post carol, yes, check the lineage, do some research on line and ask questions that the instructor should know if legitimate. Many times you can call their instructor directly to get a background on them. But, in some cases, the break between the instructor and their instructor was so bad that any information from the former instructor may not be valid. Professional jealously can play a part. When my teacher left his teacher in Japan, his teacher was so enraged that he wiped records of his certification out of the organization. I have seen the certificates with the Japanese Master's name signed and stamp on it. Usually when you see them demonstrate their skills,you will get a feel if they are for real. You will also get positive feedback from their students.
> I now only teach to small groups, that way I know I have dedicated students, and I have the time to focus on each student personally. I feel that I owe it to them to give the best instruction, because they have given me their trust and dedication. This is an important relationship between instructor and student. A good sensei will give time to each student, not just see them as another face and paycheck in their school. It also an awsome responsibilty for the student. The instructor is trusting that the student will not misuse the knowledge that he is imparting.


 

I agree.  check the linage and also go observe the class and ask questions of the sensei and students. ask what emphisis he or she usualy has in their instruction. some are more prone to teach towards turnement and sport, and others towards the self defence applications and survival for when you dont manage to avoid the confrantation.  I would also look at the attitude of the students. are they agressive and hostile or seem to have a lot of ego? if so i would tend to think about if i really want to learn there.  if they seem friendly and open and happy and the emphisis is one self defence and that is what you are looking for, then see about trying it for a month or so.  Iwould be carefull about contracts.  They can be badly missused.


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## Em MacIntosh (May 31, 2007)

Assuming you are training in karate I'd highly reccommend some boxing and wrestling as a supplement.  Some combination of striking and grappling.  Kickboxing and Judo.  Kempo and BJJ.  Whatever works for you.  I've used karate to successfully defend myself but still feel it leaves me handicapped in some areas.  It's good to know what these areas are and how you can pick up the slack.  Just tussling with your buds in the back yard is good training.  Check out some Combat Sambo and La Savatte too.  Wing Chun, Krav Maga, Silat and qinna are also worth looking into.


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## Callandor (Jun 1, 2007)

If you can throw a reverse punch, a knife-hand strike, a front kick, and a roundhouse kick with destructive power, unblockable speed, and pinpoint accuracy, you will be very capable to defend yourself. The aforementioned techniques are all available in any ryu of karatedo and in korean striking arts such as Taekwondo, Tang Soo Do, or Soo Bahk Do - which means any of them will do. The tough part is developing the power, speed, and accuracy thing. This is done using training methods which are trainer (meaning, instructor) dependent. Therefore, it is more important to choose the right trainer no matter the art - any art will do.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 1, 2007)

Callandor said:


> If you can throw a reverse punch, a knife-hand strike, a front kick, and a roundhouse kick with destructive power, unblockable speed, and pinpoint accuracy, you will be very capable to defend yourself. The aforementioned techniques are all available in any ryu of karatedo and in korean striking arts such as Taekwondo, Tang Soo Do, or Soo Bahk Do - which means any of them will do. The tough part is developing the power, speed, and accuracy thing. This is done using training methods which are trainer (meaning, instructor) dependent. Therefore, it is more important to choose the right trainer no matter the art - any art will do.


I agree 100%.  Note I have defended myself against all types of attacks and came out ok because of the way I train and the instruction I had recieved.  But grappling on the ground was not included.


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## Em MacIntosh (Jun 1, 2007)

Triple headbutt, one leg takedown, collar grab, bounce opponent off the pavement, palm heel to the side of the mouth and push, stand up and kick him in the back style.


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## chinto (Jun 12, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> Assuming you are training in karate I'd highly reccommend some boxing and wrestling as a supplement. Some combination of striking and grappling. Kickboxing and Judo. Kempo and BJJ. Whatever works for you. I've used karate to successfully defend myself but still feel it leaves me handicapped in some areas. It's good to know what these areas are and how you can pick up the slack. Just tussling with your buds in the back yard is good training. Check out some Combat Sambo and La Savatte too. Wing Chun, Krav Maga, Silat and qinna are also worth looking into.


 

traditional okinawan styles if tought in the original way have grapling in them. they also have meany techniques that some one who didnt know better would provably assume came from judo or jujitsu or even posibly aikido.  but again it does depend a great deal on the instructor.


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## Martin h (Jun 12, 2007)

I would pick kyokushin or some other form of knockdown karate (ashihara, enshin, shidokan, seidokaikan etc), not because they have a better syllabus-to be honest, all karate are if not the same so atleast similar, but because they make you train full contact. Training full contact means that you get used to hitting without holding back, getting hit by someone not holding back, and getting used to the fear and pain factor involved in continuous fighting full power without stopping after each accurate hit.

Sadly there are gaps in the training that needs to be filled (grappling and so on), but training one of the more MMA influenced knockdown styles like daido juku and shidokan would fix that.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 12, 2007)

chinto said:


> traditional okinawan styles if tought in the original way have grapling in them. they also have meany techniques that some one who didnt know better would provably assume came from judo or jujitsu or even posibly aikido. but again it does depend a great deal on the instructor.


I second that.


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## chinto (Jul 1, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> I agree 100%. Note I have defended myself against all types of attacks and came out ok because of the way I train and the instruction I had recieved. But grappling on the ground was not included.


 

actualy there are ground techniqus in the old school kata if you look deep enough. as far as grapling in traditional okinawan kata at least, there is a great deal of it. locks and presure points that couse great pain, brakes and throws too.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 1, 2007)

Very true that grappling is there but its only been the last few years that I have been able to learn the deeper part of the bunkai.


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## chinto (Jul 3, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> Very true that grappling is there but its only been the last few years that I have been able to learn the deeper part of the bunkai.


 

it all takes time. My sensei has a lot of years training and so I benifit from that.  me I am just a a newbe.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 3, 2007)

chinto said:


> it all takes time. My sensei has a lot of years training and so I benifit from that. me I am just a a newbe.


I will begin my 24th year of training in November.  I continue to learn more and more each time I train and more when I teach.  I had an instructor who was really clueless about kata and bunkai and it was a real hinderence.  I even brought the Shorin Ryu kata into his program and we converted them over to the shotokan forms to legitimize his claim of teaching a shotokan style system.  Its one thing I really regret.  Now back to Shorin Ryu system with a link to Okinawa I have really started learning much more again.  The scary thing about my time in the arts is I feel like I just started yesterday since there is so much to learn.


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## chinto (Jul 9, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> I will begin my 24th year of training in November. I continue to learn more and more each time I train and more when I teach. I had an instructor who was really clueless about kata and bunkai and it was a real hinderence. I even brought the Shorin Ryu kata into his program and we converted them over to the shotokan forms to legitimize his claim of teaching a shotokan style system. Its one thing I really regret. Now back to Shorin Ryu system with a link to Okinawa I have really started learning much more again. The scary thing about my time in the arts is I feel like I just started yesterday since there is so much to learn.


 

my senesi has over 35 years of training and says he is still a begianer... me i have a couple of years training, so i am not even a begainer yet! so much to learn, and if i live to be 100 i will not have learned nearly enough of it.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 10, 2007)

chinto said:


> my senesi has over 35 years of training and says he is still a begianer... me i have a couple of years training, so i am not even a begainer yet! so much to learn, and if i live to be 100 i will not have learned nearly enough of it.


I hear ya there is so much to learn it never ceases to amaze me those that say they are bored.


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## chinto (Jul 11, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> I hear ya there is so much to learn it never ceases to amaze me those that say they are bored.


 

yep I agree... bored??!! how can you be bored??!  
:jediduel:


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## Karatedrifter7 (Jul 15, 2007)

Problem with a gun is if you use it at the wrong time, you might wind up in prison!
Case in point. A guy in Los Angeles was just coming back from practice at the shooting range, when he and a kid got into a road rage argument. The kid was also probably trying to show off to his girl.
 But the guy pulled out his gun and shot the kid dead from his vehicle. If you listened to this guy who is now in prison, it sounded like he really believed he was defending himself. 
People might disagree with me on this, but I say find a good book written by an expert on quick moves to defend yourself. That include improvising with common objects that might be used as weapons if needed. But only in emergencies!
Then if you want to become the artist, pursue the style you feel is right for you.
Which is what I'm trying to do as well.
Buena Suerte! To us both.
Dave


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 15, 2007)

Self Defense techniques from a book = danger.  Find a good instructor.


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## seasoned (Jul 15, 2007)

cstanley said:


> Anyone serious about self-defense in today's world needs to purchase a handgun and learn how to use it. Karate, traditional karate anyway, should not be pursued merely as self-defense. Self-defense is a by-product of learning a much deeper, multi-faceted art. If self-defence and fighting are your primary interest, then no karate style is going to satisfy you.


 
But everyone looking for a Martial arts school in this day and age is for the most part looking for self defense. I dont think they are considering all the other benefits that we as quote, unquote old timers are aware of. Your point is well taken, but I dont feel that I personally was looking for a multi faceted art when I first started looking for a Karate school. I was intrigued by the fighting aspect of it all. If someone told me that I was going to learn how to fight so I would not have to fight, I probably would have gotten a gun. 
Of course with the knowledge I have now it would be a whole different story.


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## chinto (Jul 16, 2007)

Karatedrifter7 said:


> Problem with a gun is if you use it at the wrong time, you might wind up in prison!
> Case in point. A guy in Los Angeles was just coming back from practice at the shooting range, when he and a kid got into a road rage argument. The kid was also probably trying to show off to his girl.
> But the guy pulled out his gun and shot the kid dead from his vehicle. If you listened to this guy who is now in prison, it sounded like he really believed he was defending himself.
> People might disagree with me on this, but I say find a good book written by an expert on quick moves to defend yourself. That include improvising with common objects that might be used as weapons if needed. But only in emergencies!
> ...


 

well 2 things, one is that you will more then likely be more harshly treated for use of a knife or other bladed weapon/object then for a gun.  and 2 if you want to learn a weapon, or self defence, do your self a facver and
 find a good instructor.


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## chinto (Jul 16, 2007)

seasoned said:


> But everyone looking for a Martial arts school in this day and age is for the most part looking for self defense. I dont think they are considering all the other benefits that we as quote, unquote old timers are aware of. Your point is well taken, but I dont feel that I personally was looking for a multi faceted art when I first started looking for a Karate school. I was intrigued by the fighting aspect of it all. If someone told me that I was going to learn how to fight so I would not have to fight, I probably would have gotten a gun.
> Of course with the knowledge I have now it would be a whole different story.


 
yes I have to agree. most people who go looking for training in a martial art are at least at first looking for self defence skills for themselves.


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