# To Lose is to win



## LawDog (Feb 26, 2007)

The most important time to fight is when you know that you are going to lose.   (1968)


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 26, 2007)

LawDog said:


> The most important time to fight is when you know that you are going to lose. (1968)


Reminds me of an Electric Hellfire Club song, "Then we go back to the year Sixty-Eight. Thats when the summer of love became the summer of hate..."
Sean


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 26, 2007)

Both Taiji and Wing Chun have a saying.

Invest in loss.


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## jdinca (Feb 26, 2007)

We have a saying in our school. "You win when you lose, if you learn."


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## grydth (Feb 26, 2007)

LawDog said:


> The most important time to fight is when you know that you are going to lose.   (1968)




I'd be genuinely interested in hearing you expand on this. 

I believe you mean something far different than Cheng Man Ching's concept of "investing in loss".

Unless protecting something of priceless value, such as my childrens' lives, if I know I am going to lose.....is not running away the best choice?


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 26, 2007)

"Win the battle, lose the war, choice of evils, lies before"

Losing to win, and winning to lose. Interesting concepts, and I understand.

We all go through times in our life where we see ourselves defeated, lost, sometimes worse. Sometimes, those moments lead us to our greatest moments.


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## grydth (Feb 26, 2007)

It is distressingly probable that all of you see something here that I am missing. 

Certain defeat to me is a sign to run away to fight another day. 

Recall from history, some of those "losses" you all refer to may be terminal ones - the dead never profit from the lessons of the past. Often the fleet footed living do.


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## LawDog (Feb 26, 2007)

Yes there is more to this, 
When there comes a time to fight and you know that you will win, walk away.
A Martial Artist protects the weak.


Note- I lost power at my house and could not complete the first section.


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## grydth (Feb 26, 2007)

LawDog said:


> Yes there is more to this,
> When there comes a time to fight and you know that you will win, walk away.
> A Martial Artist protects the weak.
> 
> ...




So far, that is sound reasoning...... and protection of defenseless others against a ghoulish assailant could justify a fight one is not likely to win.

But, not trying to be funny here , I'd say in general: Walk away from a certain win, run away from a certain defeat!


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## LawDog (Feb 26, 2007)

"Personal Honor"


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 26, 2007)

You win the fight, your opponent lies dead or dying at your feet. Soon, you will be arrested for his death, your family put through hardship and pain. You may also be imprisoned or killed as a result.
The battle was yours. The war however, was lost.

You are beaten in a fight, giving up your personal possessions and taking the honor hit and heading home bruised and spit covered. You dedicate yourself to self improvement and along the way gain confidence and fitness.
You lost the fight, but won the war, ending as a better person than your attacker.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 26, 2007)

LawDog said:


> The most important time to fight is when you know that you are going to lose.   (1968)




On the flip side of that, the karate days had something similar.  but it was "If you believe you will lose, you have already lost."


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 26, 2007)

"The coward dies a thousand times, the brave man dies but once."


"But the SMART man doesn't die at all".


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## Andrew Green (Feb 26, 2007)

The smart man is the coward, he just doesn't know it


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 26, 2007)

If he doesn't know it he isn't smart, now is he


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## grydth (Feb 26, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> You win the fight, your opponent lies dead or dying at your feet. Soon, you will be arrested for his death, your family put through hardship and pain. You may also be imprisoned or killed as a result.
> The battle was yours. The war however, was lost.
> 
> You are beaten in a fight, giving up your personal possessions and taking the honor hit and heading home bruised and spit covered. You dedicate yourself to self improvement and along the way gain confidence and fitness.
> You lost the fight, but won the war, ending as a better person than your attacker.



Bob, the paragraphs above do not match in their consequences. 

The first presupposes I kill the attacker if I win; in the second you presume the aasailant does NOt kill me, that I am able to return home. 

Should I not walk away even in a scenario where I am very unlikely to have to kill or even seriously injure an attacker?

What worries me, especially in that troubling scenario where I am likely to lose the encounter, is that he kills me.......


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## grydth (Feb 26, 2007)

LawDog said:


> "Personal Honor"



I respectfully disagree.

In most street encounters there is no personal honor at stake. I am a citizen set upon by a thug - hardly the picture of 2 knights dueling. What code of honor requires me to fight this trash, especially given the liklihood of losing?

There is no fair lady, no grail awaiting the victor..... and no expulsion from Camelot for the loser. The only question is whether I survive to return to my family. 

The Chinese often emulated animals..... fine, I pick the roadrunner.

Even in some military situations, running can be the best course. A good officer doesn't throw his life or his soldiers' lives away. Sometimes living to return another day - better equipped, better armed, better odds - can be the wiser course... not a cowardly one.


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## Kacey (Feb 26, 2007)

Andy Moynihan said:


> "The coward dies a thousand times, the brave man dies but once."
> 
> 
> "But the SMART man doesn't die at all".





Andrew Green said:


> The smart man is the coward, he just doesn't know it





grydth said:


> In most street encounters there is no personal honor at stake. I am a citizen set upon by a thug - hardly the picture of 2 knights dueling. What code of honor requires me to fight this trash, especially given the liklihood of losing?
> 
> There is no fair lady, no grail awaiting the victor..... and no expulsion from Camelot for the loser. The only question is whether I survive to return to my family.




"A gentleman was supposed to prefer being a dead lion to being a live jackal. Me, I've always preferred to be a live lion, so that puts me outside the rules."
          --Lazurus Long, Time Enough For Love, pg 61 - Robert Heinlein

For myself - I'd rather be a live lion too, and rules be damned if it comes to my life (or the life of someone I value) or the life of an attacker.


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 26, 2007)

Kacey gets it


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## LawDog (Feb 27, 2007)

In the street logic comes into play when applying this old point of view. 
It is just a willingness to do this if the need exists.
If a person will only fight those who they know that they can beat then personal honor is where?


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## Shaderon (Feb 27, 2007)

LawDog said:


> The most important time to fight is when you know that you are going to lose. (1968)


 

I think I get this, if you know you are going to loose, then you know you can't run away, as getting away is a form of winning, your attacker is after hurting you and if you get away you've stopped them, therefore won.

So the most important time to call on those reserves and REALLY fight, is when all hope is lost and you have to dig down deep for that last strength and pull out all the stops.  No holds barred.


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## LawDog (Feb 27, 2007)

Shaderon,
Very good!


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## grydth (Feb 27, 2007)

If the points be: Fight to protect something vital (i.e. your family, your country) even if you believe you will fail. Fight with everything you have out of honor - and that effort may snatch victory for your cause....... then I concur with you.

There is also a time to walk or even run away. In this society, one could argue that if one is parenting and doing a meaningful job (and most are), then there is a duty to run away. A Code of Cowardice one might ask? No, a duty not to throw your life away when people need and depend on you.


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## Freestyler777 (Mar 12, 2007)

In Judo, you don't randori (free-play or spar) to win, because then you get defensive and simply avoid being thrown on your back.  The only way to improve is to attempt as many throws as possible, and if you get countered, slap the mat and stand up again.  Randori is about experimentation, not a contest to see who is best.  There's far too much ego in the martial arts, especially competitive sports such as Judo.  Judo teaches you to fall down seven times, get up eight.  Determination is what brings a man success in life.


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