# Self Defense with a Bat



## stonewall1350

So I got to talking to a buddy the other day. We were talking about how he walks home from little league games (he is a coach) with usually a bat and glove. We were talking about how to use a bat to defend yourself. I got to thinking about this and I was wondering about it. Trying to use a bat with a system like Kali and such seems a little unusual to me because of where the weight lies in a bat. So I thought about it.

Would using a bat for self defense...would you want to possibly research some simple sword strike techniques from older times? Perhaps old morning star systems and clubs? Same principle in terms of where the strength of the weapon would lie. Anyway. Any advice would be appreciated.


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## Cyriacus

You really dont need techniques. Just swinging it like a lunatic should be enough to put someone off enough to try and make a run for it.

Failing that, hit the biceps, I suppose.


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## mook jong man

I'd use a two handed grip and use a thrusting action timed with stepping in to maximize the use of body mass in the strike.
I might use very tight hooking movements , but I certainly would not use any swinging motions , over committed swinging actions would create an opening for the opponent to get inside the arc of the swing and into close range.


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## Blindside

Well depending on your FMA, many do have two handed technique involving staff or spear weapons at various lengths.

There is a guy sort of near me who does focus specifically on this issue, you might takea look at his blog, he has a very realistic take on such things.

http://bigstickcombat.com/

My thoughts are that sword strikes and impact weapon strikes are related but not the same.  As an art, the Pekiti that I practice is very power focused, and it is the first thing that I teach, if you can't hit hard, you can't hit.  And power generation becomes more important as you move from the blade to the impact weapon, what you do with a two or three foot razor is different than a metal pipe.  But at least for our system, the methods of power power generation are the same.    

Now in application, alot of the timing will be different so targeting will be different, it is hard to hand hunt against a smaller faster weapon like a baton or knife.  So I would be using the length of the weapon to keep the (presumably) shorter weapon of the opponent away from me by filling the space with a barrage.  I would also be looking for a nice kneecap shot that can be very useful as you can do a good distance shot by transitioning from a double hand grip to a single held by the lead hand, it more than doubles the range of the single hand grip and is good for an opponent who thinks they are just out of range.  Other than that my main targets will be head and torso, just crushing anything that gets in the way.

But that is just theory, this is a quote that came up on Kenpotalk a couple of months ago:


> The following quote is taken form the book "American Desperado" by Jon Roberts and Evan Wright. Mr. Robert's AKA "The Cocaine Cowboy" is an infamous criminal who worked as an enforcer for a well known crime family. His description of the use of a baseball bat in a fight speaks for itself.
> 
> "You don't swing for the fences when you fight with a bat. I approach you carrying my bat pointed down so it matches my leg. You might not even notice it. When I come close, I bring my bat up, grip it in both hands, and swing it low at your knee. I'f I hit your knee with any force, I will put you on the ground. I don't care if your a guy that weighs 400 pounds. A bat to the knee will drop Superman, and when you're on the ground I own you..
> 
> When you're bat-fighting, as sonn as you get your guy on the ground, you need to reverse your grip on the bat. Put your strong hand near the end of the handle and your weaker hand below it. Point the bat like you're grinding herbs in a mortar and pestle. You're going to pump the bat up and down on the person underneath it. Focus on taking out the knees, elbows, and hands."



Something to think about anyway.


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## frank raud

Besides the obvious swinging for the fences, up close a bat can be used like a riot stick, two handed grip as Mook jong man reccomends, thrusting either end into ribs, stomach or face. Also used (again in two handed grip) as a rising bar smash, followed by a downwards bar smash. Just be ready for much legal problems if you connect with more  than one strike, as it will possibly turn your self defense into an assault.


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## Blindside

mook jong man said:


> I'd use a two handed grip and use a thrusting action timed with stepping in to maximize the use of body mass in the strike.
> I might use very tight hooking movements , but I certainly would not use any swinging motions , over committed swinging actions would create an opening for the opponent to get inside the arc of the swing and into close range.



I am thinking of why I am using a bat on a guy, I am assuming that either he is armed or has a bunch of buddies. If he is armed, two handed thrusting puts me into the range of the shorter weapon, I hit him, he hits me, bad deal, yes I have a big stick, trading with a knife shot is bad business. Also with regard to multiple opponents, slashes cover whole arcs and defends against multiples. It is actually something we specifically cover in the sibat (staff/spear) curriculum, about address multiple armed opponents with regard to slashing and movement.  I would shift two that thrusting/blocking strategy if things got to closer ranges, but i wouldn't want to limit myself to it initially.


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## Bill Mattocks

stonewall1350 said:


> So I got to talking to a buddy the other day. We were talking about how he walks home from little league games (he is a coach) with usually a bat and glove. We were talking about how to use a bat to defend yourself. I got to thinking about this and I was wondering about it. Trying to use a bat with a system like Kali and such seems a little unusual to me because of where the weight lies in a bat. So I thought about it.
> 
> Would using a bat for self defense...would you want to possibly research some simple sword strike techniques from older times? Perhaps old morning star systems and clubs? Same principle in terms of where the strength of the weapon would lie. Anyway. Any advice would be appreciated.



I have considered the use of a baseball bat for self-defense.  You could of course use it like a baseball bat is generally used - swing for the fences.  I presume one doesn't mind if one kills the person one is striking, because a head shot may well do just that.

On the other hand, the bat has some drawbacks.  Some are common to any weapon, some are unique to the size, shape, and weight of the bat.

A common drawback of any hand-held weapon is that you have to protect it - that is, you can't let it be taken from you, because it would be used on you.  You must defend yourself and you must defend the weapon.  That can change responses.

Unique to the baseball bat is the fact that one end is heavily weighted and the other end is very light; it's not a balanced weapon.  When used as intended, it is powerful but slow.  It is difficult to change the arc of the bat when swung, or to stop it, or to recover quickly from a swing.  A big swing and a miss, an experienced opponent would choose that moment to move inside the striking range, pin down the weapon, and take the batsman out.

I would consider a two-handed hold on the bat, not unlike one would hold a bo or a jo.  Use the weapon defensively, to block punches and kicks.  Use the ends to extend punches and elbows, basically for jabs and blocks.

I see this kind of thing and I think if the guy with the bat had not been able to escape by driving away, he'd have been in big trouble - he lost his bat.


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## oftheherd1

I agree with the two handed hold, using the bat to block and punch both.  Punches should be jabs as well as short block-strikes, upercuts, etc.  Being prepared to hit anything within your reach, with bat, hands, feet, knees; whatever.


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## Blindside

This thread has inspried me to buy a baseball bat, I meet the Craigslist guy in an hour for a $10 bat.  He is a little puzzled why I turned down his offer of 9 baseballs for $5.  The bat will be added to the axehandles at the dojo. For some reason the kenpo and kyokushin guys that I share the space with think we are a little weird.


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## Bill Mattocks

Here is what I was mentally envisioning with a baseball bat - we used to be issued 'riot batons' for use in crowd-control situations, and we got some training in how to use them.

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/SMCT_CTT_Tasks/Skill_Level_1/1913764121-sl1-use-a-riot.shtml

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/19-15/CH10.htm

www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-19-15.pdf


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## Tez3

Blindside said:


> This thread has inspried me to buy a baseball bat, I meet the Craigslist guy in an hour for a $10 bat.  He is a little puzzled why I turned down his offer of 9 baseballs for $5.  The bat will be added to the axehandles at the dojo. For some reason the kenpo and kyokushin guys that I share the space with think we are a little weird.



See if you can get a vampire bat as well, it would look impressive hanging from your arm! 

We actually get rounders bats, shorter but are thicker, easier to use. http://aresson.co.uk/rounders-bats/


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## oftheherd1

Tez3 said:


> See if you can get a vampire bat as well, it would look impressive hanging from your arm!
> 
> We actually get rounders bats, shorter but are thicker, easier to use. http://aresson.co.uk/rounders-bats/



Rounders? Is that some kind of bowling game?  :uhyeah:


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## oftheherd1

Bill Mattocks said:


> Here is what I was mentally envisioning with a baseball bat - we used to be issued 'riot batons' for use in crowd-control situations, and we got some training in how to use them.
> 
> http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/SMCT_CTT_Tasks/Skill_Level_1/1913764121-sl1-use-a-riot.shtml
> 
> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/19-15/CH10.htm
> 
> www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-19-15.pdf



Thanks for the links Bill.  Brings back memories.


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## Rich Parsons

Many good points here already.

1) Swinging for the fences ca hurt or kill and will also open you up for the counters
2) Protecting the weapon
3) Two handed similar to military will help retain the weapon, but will also put you in closer location. 
4) Hiding the weapon


Assuming you can use the weapon legally for protection. i.e. multiple opponents or others with weapons. 

Grab the heavy end, and use short chopping motions to hit with the tip of the handle. Target the opponents offered weapons. For example the weapon, their hand or forearm target bones. Also target knees as mentioned. 

Yes there is a negative of not having a big enough hand to grip the big end. 

Repeat above, with grip on handle end this time, treat like hatchet for both cases, in this case it is more important. 

If you have not trained it you will hit something and drop the weapon. Or even hurt yourself.


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## Tez3

oftheherd1 said:


> Rounders? Is that some kind of bowling game? :uhyeah:



You shouldn't be rude about _real_ baseball!


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## stonewall1350

Thanks guys. A lot of great responses. I will be sharing this in a few hours. I personally carry a 9mm Semi Auto, but I will consider all this and show him the suggestions.

2nd note: any blunt force weapons you would prefer for self defense? I have always been intrigued by the war hammer, but obviously I wouldn't have one of THOSE lying around in self defense. Anyone know how to use a regular hammer? lol.


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## Cyriacus

Depends on the countries laws.

I doubt "I was carrying a hammer around because... Um... Ah..." might not work out too well.


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## Bill Mattocks

Cyriacus said:


> Depends on the countries laws.
> 
> I doubt "I was carrying a hammer around because... Um... Ah..." might not work out too well.



That is correct. As discussed in other threads, often a weapon is considered to be a weapon by law enforcement based on the purpose for which it is carried.  Too many people think _"Oh, I'll just carry around X, which is an innocent tool, and then I'll be protected legally!"_  Well, maybe.  Maybe not.  It may not be down to the item itself, but to what the police think you are carrying it for.

Baseball bat?  If you've got one in your car (and many people do), you might be asked where the game is.  You might find yourself in trouble for carrying an illegal weapon if you cannot prove you were actually on your way to or from such an event.  I'm not saying that WILL happen, but that it COULD happen.

About the only 'non-weapon' weapon I'd consider from that standpoint would be a cane - if I had a medical reason to use one (and at various times in the past, I have).  Hammers, screwdrivers, kubatons, brass knuckle 'key rings', all that sort of stuff could be considered something other than a tool or a novelty depending on the laws where you live and the circumstances.

I wish so many people didn't know half the law and assume they know the rest.  They get in trouble that way.

Best thing to do - find out what the laws on self-defense and carrying weapons are where you live.  That applies to everyone.  And no, asking people on MT isn't 'finding out'.  Each person is responsible for knowing the laws where they live, and if they refuse to find out, they're being foolish in my opinion.


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## mook jong man

Blindside said:


> I am thinking of why I am using a bat on a guy, I am assuming that either he is armed or has a bunch of buddies. If he is armed, two handed thrusting puts me into the range of the shorter weapon, I hit him, he hits me, bad deal, yes I have a big stick, trading with a knife shot is bad business. Also with regard to multiple opponents, slashes cover whole arcs and defends against multiples. It is actually something we specifically cover in the sibat (staff/spear) curriculum, about address multiple armed opponents with regard to slashing and movement.  I would shift two that thrusting/blocking strategy if things got to closer ranges, but i wouldn't want to limit myself to it initially.



Yes it does reduce the range of the weapon , but the two handed grip also makes a very strong structure with which to block knife thrusts and shatter the forearm bone of the knife wielding arm.

It also acts as a solid barrier between you and the opponent and allows for rapid forward or backward steps with minimal disruption to balance.

If changing direction to face another attacker I will move the bat in an arc , siimply because that is the most efficient strike at that moment.
But swinging the bat around is a bit of a one shot deal in my opinion , you may get lucky and take his head off or even break his arm.

But there's also a good chance he may jam your swing , control the bat , and then you will be on the ground grappling and trying to defend against the knife.

Bottom line is , whatever method you use ,it should not put your balance at risk.
You should also be able to generate effective striking power with any part of the bat , the two end bits and anywhere in between.


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## jks9199

An important consideration...  By definition, a baseball bat is almost certainly going to be considered using lethal force.  Lethal force is defined as force likely to cause significant bodily harm or death, and a bat can certainly do both.  You start swinging a baseball bat around with any sort of intent to harm, especially if you seem to have any idea what you're doing with it, and I'm going right to lethal force myself.


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## seasoned

I just had my annual firearms re-certification, and article 35 (NYS law governing use of force.

Physical Force: Any physical force that does not amount to deadly physical force.

Deadly Physical Force: Physical force that is readily capable of causing death or other serious physical injury ( Defined in article 10 of the penal law).


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## Xue Sheng

Self Defense with a Bat.... will this type of Bat do


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## geezer

This is a pretty decent thread. Considering how to use a baseball bat offensively and defending against it is very relevant topic. From my own experience, I avoid fights and have never been threatened with a firearm, even though I live in a state where many people carry. I have, however been threatened by a bat ...on more than one occasion. Mostly when I was a lot younger, but that's beside the point. Bats are something that 's available. Angry people grab them, brandish them, and sometimes swing them for real. Thugs and gangstas too. A friend of mine even witnessed a murder in which a bat was the weapon. 

So in my Escrima class we train with them, along with other similar weapons such as axe-handles, pieces of pipe, 2 X 4s, or what have you. We call this "palo pesado" (heavy stick). The concepts are similar to what others (Bill, Rich, Blindside) have already discussed. There are a lot of ways to use a bat, and not all are big slow swings. It's a scary weapon.


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## monk64

There's the old story about how King Sho Shin disarmed the Okinawans and they took agricultural tools and made them into weapons.  Allegedly this is the origin of the nunchaku, tonfa, etc. though how true that story is, I don't know.

Is there a modern parallel?  I doubt we will see anyone doing an Cellphone Form and iPads are pretty expensive to practice with.  Though it would be neat to drop back and use the Shattering Gorilla Glass technique.

The only items I'm likely to have that would be useful as weapons (if I'm not carrying something designed to be a weapon) would be:


a sturdy leather belt - not that I would have any idea if/how to use it as a weapon and the one I normally wear is not designed to be taken off quickly
car keys - I've seen the "key between each finger" rake in self defense books though I question the practicality, not to mention speed of deployment
perhaps a pen or pencil - not that I carry anything other than your typical Bic

It would be neat if there was a system of modern parallels to that old Okinawan story, though I suspect there are not.


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## Blindside

monk64 said:


> It would be neat if there was a system of modern parallels to that old Okinawan story, though I suspect there are not.



I'd prefer to not get disarmed in the first place.


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## geezer

monk64 said:


> The only items I'm likely to have that would be useful as weapons (if I'm not carrying something designed to be a weapon) would be:
> 
> 
> a sturdy leather belt - not that I would have any idea if/how to use it as a weapon and the one I normally wear is not designed to be taken off quickly
> car keys - I've seen the "key between each finger" rake in self defense books though I question the practicality, not to mention speed of deployment
> perhaps a pen or pencil - not that I carry anything other than your typical Bic.





Do you carry a briefcase? The right kind of briefcase or attache case can be an excellent weapon for defense and offense, used much like a buckler or "dinner-plate" shield. Women can use their handbags in much the same way, as well as swinging them by the strap.


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## WingChunIan

If I happen to carrying something like a baseball bat and feel the need to use it, I'd employ it one handed and aim predominantly at the ankles, shins and knees from distance and the wrists, elbows and head at close range. As a Wing Chun practitioner the power generation and shapes of the baat cham do (butterfly swords) lend themselves to the single handed use of a bat that is weighted away from the grip (even if they are shorter).


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## Argus

Ian, I don't think any of that is a good idea.

Firstly, the ankles and shins and even knee are very far targets, even if you have a bat. You may even be able to reach those targets with your own feet before you can with the bat. The elbows, fore-arms, shoulders, and head will be much closer and more likely targets at any range, though I wouldn't recommend a blow to the head, as that's very likely to be lethal.

Secondly, baat cham dao cannot even be compared to a bat. There's simply no way you could use a bat in the same, or a similar manner - it is far too long, heavy, and unbalanced. I'd say using it with two hands like a bo or riot baton, as others have discussed already, would be infinitely safer and more practical.

Those are just my impressions, though. I have no experience in this area, and may not be properly envisioning what you are.

Edit: Oops. I need to pay attention to when these threads were last updated. Sorry again for digging up a 2-3 week old thread.


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## Cyriacus

Argus said:


> Ian, I don't think any of that is a good idea.
> 
> Firstly, the ankles and shins and even knee are very far targets, even if you have a bat. You may even be able to reach those targets with your own feet before you can with the bat. The elbows, fore-arms, shoulders, and head will be much closer and more likely targets at any range, though I wouldn't recommend a blow to the head, as that's very likely to be lethal.
> 
> Secondly, baat cham dao cannot even be compared to a bat. There's simply no way you could use a bat in the same, or a similar manner - it is far too long, heavy, and unbalanced. I'd say using it with two hands like a bo or riot baton, as others have discussed already, would be infinitely safer and more practical.
> 
> Those are just my impressions, though. I have no experience in this area, and may not be properly envisioning what you are.
> 
> Edit: Oops. I need to pay attention to when these threads were last updated. Sorry again for digging up a 2-3 week old thread.


A crack to the head followed by a crack at the knee can work fine, though.


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## Tez3

With the fashion for ladies handbags to be huge things these days probably just asking your attacker to hold yours for a minute would give you enough of an advantage to run away. The weight of the handbag would be a serious deterent to them running! I wouldn't suggest swinging it at an attacker though, you could do yourself a serious injury!


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## Omar B

Funny thing is the other day I was in the Salvation Army store buying a new TV for out on the deck ($15 for a 32 inch!) and started looking at the used baseball bats.  I didn't grow up playing baseball, and I gotta tell you it's not the most natural thing for someone who didn't grow up with it.  So yeah, I've got a cricket bat in my car instead.  But it's actually used for cricket, as well as a coconut bow cricket bat I made myself for playing on the beach with the cuz.  Better weapon than a baseball bat.


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## Aiki Lee

There are plenty of techniques for the hanbo in the Takamatsuden arts that translate well with a baseball bat. I'd rather use it that way then just swinging it around slugger style. PLus I'd reverse it and strike with the bottom, knobby part. Less momentum is needed to swing it that way, and there is less surface area for when you connect.


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