# Is Submission Only the Future?



## stonewall1350 (Aug 8, 2017)

How do you fellow grapplers feel about Submission only tournaments? As a Brazilian jiu-jitsu guy...I feel that these are the future for my sport. And I feel like these could even be something we see in the olympics. We have judo and wrestling. But a Submission only format? A gi and no gi? I think that could be the new wave.


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## Charlemagne (Aug 8, 2017)

We definitely seem to see things going that way, though I think with the advent of the JJGF, we will still see points-based tournaments in the mix, but with different rulesets.  

The other thing I see happening is someone getting back to the roots of the UFC and challenging what MMA has become by eliminating rounds, rules to favor striking, etc., albeit with some rules to enhance safety as compared to the early UFC's.


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## drop bear (Aug 8, 2017)

Positions are still a good building block. So for foundational skills I think the current system has merit.

Bear in mind BJJ competitions are very much for the competitor.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 8, 2017)

stonewall1350 said:


> How do you fellow grapplers feel about Submission only tournaments? As a Brazilian jiu-jitsu guy...I feel that these are the future for my sport. And I feel like these could even be something we see in the olympics. We have judo and wrestling. But a Submission only format? A gi and no gi? I think that could be the new wave.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm not a fan of the idea, but I can see the appeal as a separate format. So much of useful technique would become useless if only submission is a win.


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## stonewall1350 (Aug 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not a fan of the idea, but I can see the appeal as a separate format. So much of useful technique would become useless if only submission is a win.



But it really isn't. How can you submit someone without having a good position? Sure...you may get an ugly tap, but what stops that in a point system? I get that it isn't for everyone. For sure. I even see the merit of a point based game. I think I will prefer sub only. You have to do things right from the very start 


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## Charlemagne (Aug 9, 2017)

stonewall1350 said:


> But it really isn't. How can you submit someone without having a good position?



Ask Gary Tonnen!  LOL


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 9, 2017)

I see value in point systems. I see value in submission-only. I don't have a preference for one over the other,  but I do have a preference for multiple competition formats being available.

If everybody is competing under the same rules, then gyms have a temptation to "teach to the test", meaning that techniques and tactics which are disallowed or disadvantageous for that particular ruleset will end up being neglected or lost, even if they are important parts of the art. Having alternate avenues for testing grappling ability helps to keep the whole art alive.


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## Danny T (Aug 9, 2017)

I'm in agreement with Tony...there is value in submission only and point competitions. However, there is more to BJJ than just performing and countering submissions just as there is much more than pulling guard or gaining mount and just holding on. I'd prefer a multi faceted aspect of competition allowing for 3 or 5 rounds of 1 for positioning,  1 for striking on the ground, and 1 for submissions. In a 5 round competition Rds 4 & 5 would be a combination the first 3. I feel this would return BJJ more to its roots and keeping the whole art alive.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 9, 2017)

stonewall1350 said:


> But it really isn't. How can you submit someone without having a good position? Sure...you may get an ugly tap, but what stops that in a point system? I get that it isn't for everyone. For sure. I even see the merit of a point based game. I think I will prefer sub only. You have to do things right from the very start
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm talking about the things that don't really move toward submission very quickly. Slow wearing down with strikes might eventually get you to a submission, but it's a slow and risky path to that end. It works well in a point-counting context, though. And is a KO a submission? If so, at least there's room for the strikers to keep the grapplers honest.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 9, 2017)

Danny T said:


> I'm in agreement with Tony...there is value in submission only and point competitions. However, there is more to BJJ than just performing and countering submissions just as there is much more than pulling guard or gaining mount and just holding on. I'd prefer a multi faceted aspect of competition allowing for 3 or 5 rounds of 1 for positioning,  1 for striking on the ground, and 1 for submissions. In a 5 round competition Rds 4 & 5 would be a combination the first 3. I feel this would return BJJ more to its roots and keeping the whole art alive.


I like the sound of that. It mirrors the way bicyclists have to prepare for the big events like Tour de France. Some days are for sprinters, others for climbers, etc. If you suck at one, you probably can't even get close to winning.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 9, 2017)

stonewall1350 said:


> How do you fellow grapplers feel about Submission only tournaments?


It will be pretty sad that everybody will do just the crab style.

No matter how good you are in your BJJ system, if you can't handle a good boxer or MT guy, your BJJ skill will have little value. To isolate yourself in BJJ only sport will only limit your personal growth.


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## msmitht (Aug 22, 2017)

Sub only is good but fighters need to be penalized if no sub happens. 5 min overtime and then BOTH lose. Is lame when they stall or just defend and no one likes that.  Also, for the sport to evolve into a more spectator friendly one Then guard pulling and butt scooting need to go. Learn takedowns or get heavily penalized. Maybe the opp gets 4 points if you pull guard?


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2017)

msmitht said:


> Sub only is good but fighters need to be penalized if no sub happens. 5 min overtime and then BOTH lose. Is lame when they stall or just defend and no one likes that.  Also, for the sport to evolve into a more spectator friendly one Then guard pulling and butt scooting need to go. Learn takedowns or get heavily penalized. Maybe the opp gets 4 points if you pull guard?


I've seen some rule sets where pulling guard is essentially conceding the takedown.  So, not a penalty per se, but essentially gifting your opponent 2 points for a takedown. 

I like the EBI rule set where it's sub only for 10 minutes, and if at the end of the 10 minutes there is no submission, there are a series of overtime rounds where one person starts from an superior position (back control or armbar).


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