# Advice for Karatekas wishing to cross-train in Taijiquan.



## wadokai_indonesia (Apr 15, 2008)

Hi all, after learning mostly Karate and Jujutsu for years, I decided to train in Taijiquan, and I have been able to finish the 24-step forms this month (the Beijing style, the government standard form). 

My transformation from Karate (Wado-ryu) to Taiji is not particularly painful, because (1) Wado is not a hard-style Karate, and (2) I have learned some white crane/tiger Kuntao before learning Taiji. However, I noticed that many of my other Karate friends, especially those from Shotokan style, has very difficult transition from Karate to Taiji. Any ideas to help them?


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## oxy (Apr 15, 2008)

wadokai_indonesia said:


> My transformation from Karate (Wado-ryu) to Taiji is not particularly painful, because (1) Wado is not a hard-style Karate, and (2) I have learned some white crane/tiger Kuntao before learning Taiji. However, I noticed that many of my other Karate friends, especially those from Shotokan style, has very difficult transition from Karate to Taiji. Any ideas to help them?



Well, I would say they should do your style of Karate first, if you had such an easy transition.

I would personally recommend Seven Star Praying Mantis as a bridging style as it is softer than your average external art if done right.


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## DaPoets (Apr 15, 2008)

Oxy may be on the right path there but when I studied Seven Star Praying Mantis our teacher focused a lot more on grappling which seemed a bit odd to me at the time.

The main thing you want to remember is to relax, and be open to new concepts.


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## Formosa Neijia (Apr 15, 2008)

wadokai_indonesia said:


> Hi all, after learning mostly Karate and Jujutsu for years, I decided to train in Taijiquan, and I have been able to finish the 24-step forms this month (the Beijing style, the government standard form).
> 
> My transformation from Karate (Wado-ryu) to Taiji is not particularly painful, because (1) Wado is not a hard-style Karate, and (2) I have learned some white crane/tiger Kuntao before learning Taiji. However, I noticed that many of my other Karate friends, especially those from Shotokan style, has very difficult transition from Karate to Taiji. Any ideas to help them?



Tell them to give up everything they think they know about martial arts and surrender to the concepts in taiji. That's assuming that highly competent instruction is available. If it isn't, they may not even want to try switching.


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## oxy (Apr 15, 2008)

DaPoets said:


> Oxy may be on the right path there but when I studied Seven Star Praying Mantis our teacher focused a lot more on grappling which seemed a bit odd to me at the time.



Seven Star is just my preference.

Although, there is a parallel between the hand drills in Seven Star and push hands. All that listening and not using muscle strength, that sort of thing.


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## wadokai_indonesia (Apr 15, 2008)

Formosa Neijia said:


> Tell them to give up everything they think they know about martial arts and surrender to the concepts in taiji.




Yeah, I already told them about "empty their cup". The thing is that their bodies has been "tempered" for far too long in Shotokan-style, they become very stiff and rigid. They have lots of power and speed, but not much flexibility.


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## wadokai_indonesia (Apr 15, 2008)

double post, sorry


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## pete (Apr 15, 2008)

If the style you practice has a Qigong set, where a single movement or energy pattern can be done in repetition, this can go a long way in developing the balance between the hard and the soft.  

It is usually the student that is concerned with learning 'the form', and equates that with 'doing tai chi', that falls into tendencies of being overly soft, or rigid/stiff.  This may be due to (a) more concern on memorizing the sequence of the form and more moves, rather than quality of posture... and (b) moving from one energy pattern to another dynamically, without getting the feel for any of them, thereby turning their internal practice into an external performance.

If there you or your teacher do not know of a qigong set within the Tai Chi style, you may want to take the first movement of the form and do it very slowly and in repetition, with no start or stop, for about 5 minutes... then do the next move, same way very slowly, in repetition, with no starting and no stopping for 5 miuntes or so.  The teacher should work with the student on posture and movements, so the student begins to feel the difference in the energy patterns in the movements.  

Then do them in sequence as a form. 

hope this helps...

pete


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## wadokai_indonesia (Apr 15, 2008)

Yes sir, my teacher has several elementary steps which were taken from the movements of the standard Beijing 24-step form. I will try to persuade my friends to take the elementary steps for an hour before trying the longer forms. I think you just identified their problems instantly, they want to quickly memorize the form without getting the essence (maintaining balance, weight-shifting, breath regulation, etc). Many thanks.


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## DaPoets (Apr 15, 2008)

yes in my beginners classes I spend time with them on weight-shifting, balance, and other things as these only compliment as well as ease the learning of the tai chi set.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 15, 2008)

they gotta learn how to relax.  That can be difficult for anyone, and even moreso for someone who has trained in a hard, ridged style.  Relax, relax, relax.  Just keep at it.


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## pete (Apr 15, 2008)

wadokai_indonesia said:
			
		

> Yes sir, my teacher has several elementary steps which were taken from the movements of the standard Beijing 24-step form. I will try to persuade my friends to take the elementary steps for an hour before trying the longer forms. I think you just identified their problems instantly, they want to quickly memorize the form without getting the essence (maintaining balance, weight-shifting, breath regulation, etc). Many thanks.


 glad i could help... one other thing i forgot to mention is to re-assure them that it will all come together in time, organicly,and not to force it to happen now.  

it is very 'frustrating' to a student to be told to relax, without being told 'how to' relax. it is even more frustrating for a student to be told to relax when they think they are 'relaxing'.  further, it is extremely detrimental to a beginner's practice to be constantly told to relax, that they lose their vital energy.

most of all... keep it fun!

pete


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## marlon (Apr 15, 2008)

i would tell them to turn thier karate into taiji.  that is to say make thier karate work using only the principles of taiji.  start with one principle at a time in order to make the transition smooth.  In the end though they will be doing a form of taiji and no longer karate.  if they cannot accept that then i think the effort will be futile as the martial approach and philosophy of fighting are too different

respectfully,
Marlon


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## DaPoets (Apr 15, 2008)

In one of my beginner classes I have a student that took Tae Kwon Do for years and for the 1st month she had trouble getting that out of her system.  Now she is 2 months into learning the 108 movements of the tai chi set and she is one of the top students in the class.  It takes 3 months to learn the full set based on our teaching style.


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## ggg214 (Apr 15, 2008)

first, karate player should understand the difference between taiji's power and karate's power. taiji is a circle, it requires every point on the circle has the same power, no more no less. karate is a line, it requires the end point of the punch or geri has the biggest power, while the other points is much more less. it's like Wing Chun's short punch.

then, if you want to make the transition, i suggest you keep your max power as you do in the end point of punch to go the circle of taiji. the way of your transition is more like the way making Chinese noodle,which is from the powder to a flexile noodle .

but if you have a master, listening to him is better.

but if you don't train for taiji's power and just for health, don't care about my post.


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## wadokai_indonesia (Apr 18, 2008)

Thank you all kind friends for your excellent advices. Our teacher also noticed that my friends has some trouble understanding the principles and getting the "feeling". So he decided to postpone teaching them the 24-step and introducing a smaller set (I think it's called 10-step), which is easier to learn. It consists of basic movements from the 24-step, but performed left and right. Hopefully this will do them good, and after understanding the 10-step, they will be able to learn the 24-step. Again many thanks.


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