# Atemi Ryu



## Mider1985 (Aug 22, 2010)

I have been looking at Atemi Ryu and it seems interesting most people at Bullshido make fun of it but then again everyone at bullshido has the personality of a dead carp. If it aint MMA then its gay is there moto. 

Anyway I am interested in Atemi Ryu cause it looks pretty interesting but im wondering if you can learn the same things in something like Hapkido or even Dennis Survival Jujitsu or Hisardut by Dr Dennis Hanover

here's some videos of atemi ryu


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## Haakon (Aug 22, 2010)

Looks interesting to me too. Many of the techniques shown in those videos are similar to what I've learned in Hapkido, and much like what I've seen in various Combat Hapkido demos. Would you learn the same thing in Hapkido? Maybe, it would depend on the particular teacher and school, some are much more practical/real world oriented than others. If there is an Atemi Ryu school available and that's what you want to learn I say go for it rather than trying to find another art that is similar.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 23, 2010)

Well, there are a few things I could say about the way things are done, and the history presented begs a few questions (such as Take-No-Uchi Kogen Ryu Atemi Jujitsu? Takenouchi Ryu Kogusoku Koshi no Mawari, yes, Kogen Itto Ryu Kenjutsu, yes, but Take-No-Uchi Kogen Ryu? Atemi Jujitsu? A bit more suspect, I fear), but they make no pretence about being an old system, so that's a point in their favour.

I would personally go to something that has a little more continuity, but if you enjoy their classes, why not? After all, it's your experience we're talking about here.


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## Tanaka (Aug 23, 2010)

Watching those videos gave me a headache. Such destruction of the Japanese culture/language. As far as their technique... Not my cup of tea.


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## AJuJitsu (Aug 25, 2010)

I am a student at The Atemi Ryu School in NC.I would say give it a try.I have taken american kenpo,Tae kwon do and Goju Ryu.What I am learning now seems the most usable for self defense.It is really hard to base an opinion on a couple you tube vids.I can say with out a doubt that Dr Chenique and crew are great instructors.They show you how to make things work for you.If you have anything you wanna know just ask.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 26, 2010)

Okay, I'll start.

Leaving off the technical applicability of the techniques, can I ask about the history and lineage? Most specifically, the named source school of Take-No-Uchi Kogen Ryu? As I alluded to above, there is no record of such a school that I can find. In fact, it seems, if one was to be uncharitable, that a few genuine schools names have been used (Takeuchi Ryu, also known as Takenouchi Ryu, and Kogen Itto Ryu), without any real connection there. If that is the case, then I might suggest removing all references to these very well known and highly respected Koryu. Of course, I recognise that simply being a student may not afford you the ability to affect such change, but it's worth asking.

So you know, though, every web search with those words together lead to Atemi Ryu sites, videos on YouTube, or this thread. No where else.


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## Marc Abrams (Aug 26, 2010)

Simply not impressed with the postures and the losing of balance in the nage.  It is not to say that the movements are not effective, but that the teachers should display sounder fundamentals.

Marc Abrams


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## Tanaka (Aug 26, 2010)

Marc Abrams said:


> Simply not impressed with the postures and the losing of balance in the nage.  It is not to say that the movements are not effective, but that the teachers should display sounder fundamentals.
> 
> Marc Abrams



You hit the nail on the head with me. I was thinking the same thing. Their posture leaves them off balanced and leaves them open for a counter from the opponent.


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## jks9199 (Aug 26, 2010)

It looks like they've taken a traditional jujutsu program -- and made it "combat" by dropping the precision out of the movements.  I'm not particularly impressed...  especially when demos like that are done with fairly low ranked recipients of the techniques... who are just standing there after feeding it.

I'm not going to say they're not training hard, or that they don't have effective techniques.  I don't know.  I'm just not impressed.


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## tenzen (Sep 3, 2010)

Atemi ryu jujutsu was created by dr. Philip chenique. He was a student of moses powell. It is taught along side chendokan aikido, also created by chenique. Takes average of 8 yrs steady training tto reach shodan. Better to find someone who is teaching sanuces in my opinion. Not the same as hapkido but there are a few similarities. Hope this helps.


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## Saitama Steve (Sep 9, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Okay, I'll start.
> 
> Leaving off the technical applicability of the techniques, can I ask about the history and lineage? Most specifically, the named source school of Take-No-Uchi Kogen Ryu? As I alluded to above, there is no record of such a school that I can find. In fact, it seems, if one was to be uncharitable, that a few genuine schools names have been used (Takeuchi Ryu, also known as Takenouchi Ryu, and Kogen Itto Ryu), without any real connection there. If that is the case, then I might suggest removing all references to these very well known and highly respected Koryu. Of course, I recognise that simply being a student may not afford you the ability to affect such change, but it's worth asking.
> 
> So you know, though, every web search with those words together lead to Atemi Ryu sites, videos on YouTube, or this thread. No where else.


 
I'd like to expand on this if I may. 

K&#333;gen Itt&#333;-ry&#363; is an offshoot of Nakanishi-ha Itt&#333;-ry&#363; kenjutsu. It's a very effective system of Japanese classical swordsmanship from Saitama Prefecture in the Kant&#333; area of Japan. The founding family are still very much alive and so is the ry&#363;ha. Their family were once part of Takeda Shingen's military. 

Takenouchi-ry&#363; (One line of three uses the pronunciation, "Takeuchi-ry&#363;") is the oldest systemized j&#363;jutsu system in Japan, being created in 1532. It is famous for it's grappling syllabus, but is also a very well rounded comprehensive school, teaching kenjutsu, b&#333;jutsu and other weapon disciplines. It is based in Okayama Prefecture in the Ch&#363;goku area of Japan. The Takenouchi family are still very much alive and still teach the art. Their family were allied with the Toyotomi. 

Geographically they are almost 900km apart from each other. Historically you'd need travel permits from the local domain offices to even leave the "country" you were in. (Old fashioned Japanese sometimes refer to domains as "kuni" (&#22269 or countries.) 

Furthermore, the thought of two styles of which had different historical allegiances (Even in modern Japan with some more traditonal minded people, this rivalry still exists) being melded together would be unthinkable. 

I have had the privelige knowing practitioners from both schools and actually training with them when I lived in Japan. They are VERY different in terms of body mechanics, tactics, mindset, the works. For lack of a better term, chalk and cheese. 

The lack of knowledge of historical & cultural details are always the things that make a fraudulent "made up" ry&#363; stick out like a bulldog's private parts.

This is Takenouchi-ry&#363; . Does it look at all like what was demonstrated above in the videos on the first post? Absolutely not. 

There are no videos out of K&#333;gen Itt&#333;-ry&#363; for a very good reason. 

Hope this helps.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 9, 2010)

Thanks Steve, this is what I was trying to indirectly say, didn't want to scare the student off.... not that they seemed to come back, I note....

Great clip, by the way. Love noting the similarities between Takenouchi Ryu and Takagi Ryu (not surprising, huh?).


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## Saitama Steve (Sep 9, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Thanks Steve, this is what I was trying to indirectly say, didn't want to scare the student off.... not that they seemed to come back, I note....
> 
> Great clip, by the way. Love noting the similarities between Takenouchi Ryu and Takagi Ryu (not surprising, huh?).


 
Aye, very true Chris. 

Not surprising at all considering it's heritage and technical origins. 

And the notion of mixing K&#333;gen Itt&#333;-ry&#363; with Takenouchi-ry&#363;...... Ridiculous!


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## dougmukashi (May 27, 2012)

The 2nd video in the list above shows some valid concepts/techniques. Watching this video, as with most MA videos I see ,it is difficult to determine the nuances of an art. The instructor is combining techniques in a flow that is good training for a student with some training. Nothing wrong there. He shows a more relaxed stance than most people are used to seeing. That, along with the combinig of multiple pins, locks, breaks, indicates that he is teaching a group of advanced students or demonstrating advanced techniques.  My opinion.


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## jasonbrinn (Jun 7, 2012)

Saitama Steve said:


> Takenouchi-ry&#363; (One line of three uses the pronunciation, "Takeuchi-ry&#363;") is the oldest systemized j&#363;jutsu system in Japan, being created in 1532.



I believe that Daito ryu predates this even if you don't believe in the Yoshimitsu story.


thank you,


Jason Brinn


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## pgsmith (Jun 7, 2012)

> I believe that Daito ryu predates this even if you don't believe in the Yoshimitsu story.


  According to some people. According to others, there was no Daito ryu prior to Takeda Sokaku.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 8, 2012)

jasonbrinn said:


> I believe that Daito ryu predates this even if you don't believe in the Yoshimitsu story.



Hmm. If you don't believe the Yoshimitsu story (the one that says that Daito Ryu really is an old system, and not created in the late 19th/early 20th Century), then it's still older than Takenouchi Ryu, considered and accepted as the earliest Jujutsu-centered system in Japan, dating from 1532? How does that work?

For the record, I don't think it existed prior to Takeda Sokaku. As far as evidence, well, the art itself provides plenty, including the lack of formal structure prior to Tokimune, the variety of terms used in Menkyo given out by Takeda, the sheer size of the curriculum, the methods themselves, and so on, without even getting into the lack of older records of the Ryu, as opposed to arts like Takenouchi Ryu who are incredibly well documented from their founding onwards.


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 8, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm. If you don't believe the Yoshimitsu story (the one that says that Daito Ryu really is an old system, and not created in the late 19th/early 20th Century), then it's still older than Takenouchi Ryu, considered and accepted as the earliest Jujutsu-centered system in Japan, dating from 1532? How does that work?
> 
> For the record, I don't think it existed prior to Takeda Sokaku. As far as evidence, well, the art itself provides plenty, including the lack of formal structure prior to Tokimune, the variety of terms used in Menkyo given out by Takeda, the sheer size of the curriculum, the methods themselves, and so on, without even getting into the lack of older records of the Ryu, as opposed to arts like Takenouchi Ryu who are incredibly well documented from their founding onwards.



Do you have any opinion on what art(s), if any, Sokaku Takeda used when developing Daito Ryu if it doesn't go back to the Aizu clan?

Pax,

Chris


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## Chris Parker (Jun 9, 2012)

Hey Chris,

Firstly, I want to say that I personally feel that Takeda Sensei was a singularly gifted martial artist, on a huge number of levels. Secondly, it's very obvious that he had quite a bit of training in a few things, so I don't feel that Daito Ryu was just created out of scratch. I feel that there is a very solid basis to the art, and it's one that I'm quite fond of, really.

When it comes to Sokaku's training, what is unquestioned is that he was trained in Ono-ha Itto Ryu Kenjutsu, and probably/possibly Hozoin Ryu Sojutsu. His family background included members who were known to be skilled with such weapons on both sides, and things like the Itto Ryu are uncontested from everything I've seen. Additionally, he is said to have travelled quite a bit, visiting and training at a number of dojo (there are claims of Jikishinkage Ryu, but they are unverified). Then we have his early training under his father, who was, amongst other things, ranked as a Sumotori at one time.

So I'm not in any doubt about Takeda's training being serious and in-depth, what I question is the idea that Daito Ryu itself, an extensive, unarmoured unarmed-heavy system, dates from when it is claimed to (the late 12th Century, stemming from Minamoto Yoshitsune, who is pretty much a romantic hero for Japanese martial arts). Systems like that are really the product of peacetime, and the late 12th Century was the time of the Genpei Wars (of which the Minamoto clan was a large part), which was followed by the Ashikaga period (fairly turbulent), which moved into the Sengoku Jidai (period of warring states), before getting to the Edo period from the beginning of the 17th Century as the first real time of extended peace. Arts predating this time tend to be weaponry dominant, and although they may have some unarmed, it would tend to be less "developed" in most cases. They would also have far smaller curriculums, not the literally thousands of techniques that Daito Ryu claims.

When we look at the structure of what a Ryu is as well, we get some things that are different from Ryu to Ryu, but some things that are fairly consistent. And one of those consistencies is that the art (Ryu) is passed down in a systematised form, allowing the art to be reliably transmitted. When we then turn back to Daito Ryu, Takeda himself didn't teach Daito Ryu as a systematised art, the formalisation and structure was introduced largely by his son, who also reduced a lot of the weaponry work (giving Ono-ha Itto Ryu it's emphasis again). So that's another gap in the idea that Daito Ryu itself has the history claimed.

My feeling is that Takeda was taught a range of things from his father, which may have included a degree of unarmed concepts and principles, as well as studying Ono-ha Itto Ryu when he was young. From there he travelled around, and was exposed to a great number of other arts. With his natural talent and understanding (he was said to be able to watch a technique once, and immediately understand it almost completely), combined with the varied experiences he had, Takeda began teaching what he had learnt, and what he had developed out of it. Later it was given the name Daito Ryu. The biggest influences, though, appear to be the swordsmanship training, which also explains the emphasis in Aikido, as the footwork is very similar to swordsmanship, and the dominant striking attack resembles a sword attack to a great degree. I also feel that exposure to a range of other arts in the area contributed, such as branches of Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu, which is from the same area, and shares a number of similarities with Daito Ryu, particularly at the early levels (a high emphasis on te-hodoki, for instance, and similar reiho, as well as dealing primarily with grabbing attacks to the arms/wrists). Daito Ryu is more circular, and has a different "entering" feel, but the similarities are certainly there.

Hope that made some sense.


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 9, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Hey Chris,
> 
> Firstly, I want to say that I personally feel that Takeda Sensei was a singularly gifted martial artist, on a huge number of levels. Secondly, it's very obvious that he had quite a bit of training in a few things, so I don't feel that Daito Ryu was just created out of scratch. I feel that there is a very solid basis to the art, and it's one that I'm quite fond of, really.



Oh, no, your post didn't come off that way at all. Daito Ryu is something I've had an arm chair interest in for a while, myself. I am aware of the controversy surrounding its history and am a bit of a sceptic as to its claims of antiquity. That being said, I'd love it if there was a dojo or study group within driving distance of where I am located. I'd love to train in it some time. 



> When it comes to Sokaku's training, what is unquestioned is that he was trained in Ono-ha Itto Ryu Kenjutsu, and probably/possibly Hozoin Ryu Sojutsu. His family background included members who were known to be skilled with such weapons on both sides, and things like the Itto Ryu are uncontested from everything I've seen. Additionally, he is said to have travelled quite a bit, visiting and training at a number of dojo (there are claims of Jikishinkage Ryu, but they are unverified). Then we have his early training under his father, who was, amongst other things, ranked as a Sumotori at one time.



I was aware of his training in Ono-ha Itto Ryu and that his father knew sumo, but not that there were claims about Hozoin Ryu or Jikishinkage Ryu. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone sees any influences from these styles on Sokaku's techniques. Do you know if Daito Ryu includes spear techniques in its syllabus? 



> So I'm not in any doubt about Takeda's training being serious and in-depth, what I question is the idea that Daito Ryu itself, an extensive, unarmoured unarmed-heavy system, dates from when it is claimed to (the late 12th Century, stemming from Minamoto Yoshitsune, who is pretty much a romantic hero for Japanese martial arts).



Wait, are you saying Daito Ryu claims to be from Yoshitsune, or just from the 12th century? I mean, being taught kenjutsu by Sojobo is pretty impressive and all  but I thought I had read that Daito Ryu claims to go back even further than that (A.D. 900, perhaps?).



> Systems like that are really the product of peacetime, and the late 12th Century was the time of the Genpei Wars (of which the Minamoto clan was a large part), which was followed by the Ashikaga period (fairly turbulent), which moved into the Sengoku Jidai (period of warring states), before getting to the Edo period from the beginning of the 17th Century as the first real time of extended peace. Arts predating this time tend to be weaponry dominant, and although they may have some unarmed, it would tend to be less "developed" in most cases. They would also have far smaller curriculums, not the literally thousands of techniques that Daito Ryu claims.



This is one of the main reasons why I am more than a bit sceptical about Daito Ryu's official history. It would certainly be unique amongst koryu, as far as my limited understanding goes, if it was in fact that old.



> When we look at the structure of what a Ryu is as well, we get some things that are different from Ryu to Ryu, but some things that are fairly consistent. And one of those consistencies is that the art (Ryu) is passed down in a systematised form, allowing the art to be reliably transmitted. When we then turn back to Daito Ryu, Takeda himself didn't teach Daito Ryu as a systematised art, the formalisation and structure was introduced largely by his son, who also reduced a lot of the weaponry work (giving Ono-ha Itto Ryu it's emphasis again). So that's another gap in the idea that Daito Ryu itself has the history claimed.



Given the Japanese predeliction for leaving a paper trail when it comes to things like this, do you know if Sokaku had licenses from anyone specifically in Daito Ryu (as opposed to Ono-ha Itto Ryu)? 



> My feeling is that Takeda was taught a range of things from his father, which may have included a degree of unarmed concepts and principles, as well as studying Ono-ha Itto Ryu when he was young. From there he travelled around, and was exposed to a great number of other arts. With his natural talent and understanding (he was said to be able to watch a technique once, and immediately understand it almost completely), combined with the varied experiences he had, Takeda began teaching what he had learnt, and what he had developed out of it. Later it was given the name Daito Ryu. The biggest influences, though, appear to be the swordsmanship training, which also explains the emphasis in Aikido, as the footwork is very similar to swordsmanship, and the dominant striking attack resembles a sword attack to a great degree. I also feel that exposure to a range of other arts in the area contributed, such as branches of Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu, which is from the same area, and shares a number of similarities with Daito Ryu, particularly at the early levels (a high emphasis on te-hodoki, for instance, and similar reiho, as well as dealing primarily with grabbing attacks to the arms/wrists). Daito Ryu is more circular, and has a different "entering" feel, but the similarities are certainly there.
> 
> Hope that made some sense.



Interesting, thanks. I don't know much about sumo but I'd be very interested in seeing how it relates to Daito Ryu, both philosophically and technically. The link to swordsmanship I have seen. There is video of Katsuyuki Kondo showing the relationship between kenjutsu and jujutsu which is pretty interesting, as well as aikido techniques being described as "cut down with your hands as if with a sword" by Rinjiro Shirata. But going from a sword-based system to an unarmed system using sword strategy is impressive, to say the least. You have to have an amazing insight on things to see more than a basic connection, IMNSHO. 

Pax,

Chris


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## Chris Parker (Jun 9, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> Oh, no, your post didn't come off that way at all. Daito Ryu is something I've had an arm chair interest in for a while, myself. I am aware of the controversy surrounding its history and am a bit of a sceptic as to its claims of antiquity. That being said, I'd love it if there was a dojo or study group within driving distance of where I am located. I'd love to train in it some time.



Agreed. There are a couple of groups in Australia, notably in my home state, but with everything else on my plate it'd be a bit too much... then again, if I heard of a seminar happening nearby.... 



chrispillertkd said:


> I was aware of his training in Ono-ha Itto Ryu and that his father knew sumo, but not that there were claims about Hozoin Ryu or Jikishinkage Ryu. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone sees any influences from these styles on Sokaku's techniques. Do you know if Daito Ryu includes spear techniques in its syllabus?



I know that Takeda is said to have taught some sojutsu, and have heard stories about it being trained with at a high level (whether that is actually learning sojutsu, or training using a spear in some other fashion, is not confirmed for me yet, though). Another Ryu that I've had some experience in also claims to train in spear at a high level, but they don't have any kata for it, so it's used more as an extension of other principles and methods they have. My feeling is that Daito Ryu is the same.



chrispillertkd said:


> Wait, are you saying Daito Ryu claims to be from Yoshitsune, or just from the 12th century? I mean, being taught kenjutsu by Sojobo is pretty impressive and all  but I thought I had read that Daito Ryu claims to go back even further than that (A.D. 900, perhaps?).



Yep, the old stories have Yoshitsune as the founder of the Ryu. I've also heard earlier dates, but no other founder mentioned. Then again, the practice of including famous figures in the history of your art isn't really unusual, or uncommon in Japanese arts. There's probably a dozen schools all said to have been founded by Bokuden Tsukahara, for instance.



chrispillertkd said:


> This is one of the main reasons why I am more than a bit sceptical about Daito Ryu's official history. It would certainly be unique amongst koryu, as far as my limited understanding goes, if it was in fact that old.



Yeah, it would basically scream that what was originally there was all gone, and the current ideas (the unarmed methods primarily) are not anywhere near as old as the system claims. Add to that the fact that the dominant aspect of weaponry these days is not from Daito Ryu itself, but from Ono-ha Itto Ryu, further removes it from being an old lineage.



chrispillertkd said:


> Given the Japanese predeliction for leaving a paper trail when it comes to things like this, do you know if Sokaku had licenses from anyone specifically in Daito Ryu (as opposed to Ono-ha Itto Ryu)?



As the name doesn't appear to have been used before Takeda, I'm going to say no.



chrispillertkd said:


> Interesting, thanks. I don't know much about sumo but I'd be very interested in seeing how it relates to Daito Ryu, both philosophically and technically. The link to swordsmanship I have seen. There is video of Katsuyuki Kondo showing the relationship between kenjutsu and jujutsu which is pretty interesting, as well as aikido techniques being described as "cut down with your hands as if with a sword" by Rinjiro Shirata. But going from a sword-based system to an unarmed system using sword strategy is impressive, to say the least. You have to have an amazing insight on things to see more than a basic connection, IMNSHO.



Honestly, I don't see a lot of sumo in Daito Ryu. A lot more Asayama Ichiden Ryu, really. Agreed on needing to have an amazing amount of insight as well, for the level that Daito Ryu manages. That said, taking sword techniques and making them the basis for unarmed methods isn't that hard. I've done it with some koryu kenjutsu I train in, applying it as unarmed against a knife, or unarmed against unarmed from time to time. Additionally, I'm currently teaching from one of our systems known as Kukishinden Ryu, and their unarmed methods are interesting in that they don't have any muto dori (unarmed against a weapon). Except they do. They're found in the schools methods of short sword and jutte. Fun stuff, really.

For the record, here's a very good example showing the "sword-based" attacks in Daito Ryu, from Takeda Tokimune.






And, if you're interested, this is a small example of the form of Asayama Ichiden Ryu that I'm talking about. As I said, they share a similar location, which can explain similarities in a number of ways. This Ryu dates from the early 17th Century (although some versions of the story have it a bit earlier). Not my favourite video, but there's not a lot of footage of this line available online...


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 11, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> I know that Takeda is said to have taught some sojutsu, and have heard stories about it being trained with at a high level (whether that is actually learning sojutsu, or training using a spear in some other fashion, is not confirmed for me yet, though). Another Ryu that I've had some experience in also claims to train in spear at a high level, but they don't have any kata for it, so it's used more as an extension of other principles and methods they have. My feeling is that Daito Ryu is the same.



Interesting. Is it common for koryu to have weapons or other types of techniques that are not passed down in kata? I was udner the impression that the vast majority of material in such systems were - if not entirely contained in kata - at least based on kata. In other words, that there were kata that represented each area of training. 



> Yep, the old stories have Yoshitsune as the founder of the Ryu. I've also heard earlier dates, but no other founder mentioned. Then again, the practice of including famous figures in the history of your art isn't really unusual, or uncommon in Japanese arts. There's probably a dozen schools all said to have been founded by Bokuden Tsukahara, for instance.



This I wasn't aware of. Not that it's impossible, but it does seem ... improbable. 



> Yeah, it would basically scream that what was originally there was all gone, and the current ideas (the unarmed methods primarily) are not anywhere near as old as the system claims. Add to that the fact that the dominant aspect of weaponry these days is not from Daito Ryu itself, but from Ono-ha Itto Ryu, further removes it from being an old lineage.



Do you mean that the philosophy undergirding Daito Ryu's kenjutsu seems to come directly from Ono-ha Itto Ryu, as opposed to Daito Ryu itself? How does this work since the link between sword and empty hand is stressed, particularly by Katsuyuki Kondo? Or am I not following you here?



> Honestly, I don't see a lot of sumo in Daito Ryu. A lot more Asayama Ichiden Ryu, really. Agreed on needing to have an amazing amount of insight as well, for the level that Daito Ryu manages. That said, taking sword techniques and making them the basis for unarmed methods isn't that hard. I've done it with some koryu kenjutsu I train in, applying it as unarmed against a knife, or unarmed against unarmed from time to time. Additionally, I'm currently teaching from one of our systems known as Kukishinden Ryu, and their unarmed methods are interesting in that they don't have any muto dori (unarmed against a weapon). Except they do. They're found in the schools methods of short sword and jutte. Fun stuff, really.



Well, the only armed system I've trained in has been western fencing (I never got to sword work in Kung Fu) so I'm coming at things from a different persepctive. I suppose if you've got an in-depth background in both weapons and empty hand training it would be different. 



> For the record, here's a very good example showing the "sword-based" attacks in Daito Ryu, from Takeda Tokimune.



Well, sure, they were _blatantly_ obvious in that clip :lol: It is interesting that even the "ready" position they take in this clip seems based on that of holding a sword. Some of the techniques demonstated are found inTaekwon-Do's hosinsul, too, interestingly. I know there are only so many ways to attack a human body, but it is interesting given Gen. Choi's appropriation of some Hapkido techniques via GM Chung Kee Tae and the question of the link between Hapkido and Daito Ryu. And no I'm not suggesting that means Taekwon-Do goes back to 12th century Japan 



> And, if you're interested, this is a small example of the form of Asayama Ichiden Ryu that I'm talking about. As I said, they share a similar location, which can explain similarities in a number of ways. This Ryu dates from the early 17th Century (although some versions of the story have it a bit earlier). Not my favourite video, but there's not a lot of footage of this line available online...



Thanks for the video. I am unfamiliar with Asayama Ichiden Ryu but it looks quite interesting. There were actually a couple of techniques in that video that resembled some of the hosinsul I've learned in Taekwon-Do, too. Not identical, by any means, but similar.

Pax,

Chris


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## Chris Parker (Jun 12, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> Interesting. Is it common for koryu to have weapons or other types of techniques that are not passed down in kata? I was udner the impression that the vast majority of material in such systems were - if not entirely contained in kata - at least based on kata. In other words, that there were kata that represented each area of training.



Hmm, it's not "common", but by the same token, it's not "uncommon"... In quite a number of Ryu there are often areas of knowledge/instruction that aren't presented in kata form, but they also aren't necessarily combative (technique) methods. Then again, they could be. Koryu aren't really something that can be generalised that way.



chrispillertkd said:


> This I wasn't aware of. Not that it's impossible, but it does seem ... improbable.



Agreed.



chrispillertkd said:


> Do you mean that the philosophy undergirding Daito Ryu's kenjutsu seems to come directly from Ono-ha Itto Ryu, as opposed to Daito Ryu itself? How does this work since the link between sword and empty hand is stressed, particularly by Katsuyuki Kondo? Or am I not following you here?



Hmm, that's a little harder to explain... 

Takeda Sokaku was trained in a range of weapons, including Ono-ha Itto Ryu, probably Hozoin Ryu Sojutsu, and more, separate to what has been presented as Daito Ryu. These weapons were taught by him, however under his son Tokimune, the weaponry contingent was severely curtailed, basically reducing it to Ono-ha Itto Ryu, and some lines teaching Mugen Shinto Ryu Iai. As a result, the swordsmanship, although integrated into the teaching of Daito Ryu, isn't really Daito Ryu per se. In that way it's not too dissimilar to arts like the Takagi Ryu in various forms (such as Hontai Yoshin Ryu), where large parts of their weaponry, particularly the Bojutsu, come from the Kukishin Ryu. The techniques have been altered and adapted to be more in line with the Hontai Yoshin Ryu itself, but the methods are still Kukishin Ryu in essence.

When you start looking at the connection between sword and taijutsu (as seen in Daito Ryu, Aikido, and others), the specific Ryu of sword isn't so important, as it's more about the principles of angling, footwork, full body commitment, and so on.



chrispillertkd said:


> Well, the only armed system I've trained in has been western fencing (I never got to sword work in Kung Fu) so I'm coming at things from a different persepctive. I suppose if you've got an in-depth background in both weapons and empty hand training it would be different.



Yeah, probably.



chrispillertkd said:


> Well, sure, they were _blatantly_ obvious in that clip :lol: It is interesting that even the "ready" position they take in this clip seems based on that of holding a sword. Some of the techniques demonstated are found inTaekwon-Do's hosinsul, too, interestingly. I know there are only so many ways to attack a human body, but it is interesting given Gen. Choi's appropriation of some Hapkido techniques via GM Chung Kee Tae and the question of the link between Hapkido and Daito Ryu. And no I'm not suggesting that means Taekwon-Do goes back to 12th century Japan



Yeah, there are certainly similarities found. Personally, there being the same, or highly similar mechanical methods doesn't, to me, mean that they are the same techniques. But that's another topic entirely...



chrispillertkd said:


> Thanks for the video. I am unfamiliar with Asayama Ichiden Ryu but it looks quite interesting. There were actually a couple of techniques in that video that resembled some of the hosinsul I've learned in Taekwon-Do, too. Not identical, by any means, but similar.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



There's a number of lines of Asayama Ichiden Ryu around, some of which haven't retained any taijutsu aspects, so getting the right one is the trick....quite an interesting system, really. But, for fun, here's a few videos of some of the various lines for Asayama Ichiden Ryu:





Not the greatest footage, but this is another branch of the line shown above.





A similar line... some of it is fairly familiar, but other aspects are a bit different....





One of the better known forms of Asayama Ichiden Ryu talk about being from a farming area, and are mainly focused on weaponry aspects. Here, double kama are shown.





Asayama Ichiden Ryu Iai... unlike many other forms, the Iai in this tradition are all done as paired forms.


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## arnisador (Sep 28, 2012)

Saitama Steve said:


> This is Takenouchi-ry&#363; .



Fascinating. I'm going to have to dig deeper on this art!


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## Chris Parker (Sep 29, 2012)

'Tis a fantastic system... anything in particular you were curious about there?


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## Jon-Bhoy (Sep 29, 2012)

Back on the Atemi Ryu topic. Does anyone know what Mr. Chenique is a Dr. Of?


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## arnisador (Sep 29, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> 'Tis a fantastic system... anything in particular you were curious about there?



As a Filipino martial arts practitioner who came from a Japanese martial arts background--mostly Okinawan karate but some iaido, which I really loved--much of what I've seen for knifework from the JMAs has seemed very stiff, formal, and overly sword-influenced (wrong range); in addition, pragmatic defenses against the knife have been rare. I'd assumed most of that info. died out due to an emphasis on passing down katana-related material and there was less interest in less-iconic weapons. It was very interesting to me to see what looked like both knife-appropriate knifework and knife-appropriate defenses. (I recognize that they likely view this as a short sword rather than a knife per se.) I'd love to see some of that live--the video is really interesting to me but limiting as far as what I can see. Maybe other systems have kept this too but my experience has been that good offensive tanto material has been rare and realistic defenses have been all but absent. Maybe it's just what I've seen as someone not in the JMAs and just looking from the outside.

I'd be curious to see more of this material and get a feeling for what they're doing! I start to recognize things we do as FMAers in this clip--not a lot, but a lot more than usual.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 30, 2012)

The origin story of Takenouchi Ryu states that Takenouchi Hisamori, after leaving his previous teacher (due to a loss in a martial competition), went to the mountains near a shrine (the Sannomiya Shrine), to meditate and train with his bokken. The bokken was 2 shaku 4 sun (nearly two and a half feet, or 72 cm), a rather long size for Hisamori, who was less than five feet himself. After six days he fell asleep, exhausted, and was woken by a mountain priest, who (according to the historical records of Takenouchi Ryu) was so fierce looking that Hisamori felt he was the personification of the warrior god Atago. Hisamori attacked the priest, who easily bested the young warrior. Once Hisamori was humbled, the strange old man gave him some directions about the nature of strategy, then told him that his sword was too long, and was useless for fighting, and broke Hisamori's bokken in half. He then instructed Hisamori in methods of using the shorter weapons, which in Takenouchi Ryu are referred to as Kogusoku (literally: "small set"), with the techniques using them being referred to as "Torite Kogusoku Koshi no Mawari" (seizing hand, small set/small weapons [from] around the hips). Along with this, there are purely unarmed techniques, referred to as Hade/Kenpo Taijutsu, a wide ranging set of methods of jujutsu, including striking, locking, throwing, breakfalling, and more. There is also Torite Hojojutsu, a set of methods for restraining opponents by tying them up with rope, as well as a wide range of more conventional (and some less conventional) weaponry, such as staffs of various sizes, sword, and so on. Oh, but for the record, the less conventional include things like nabebuta... the lid from a cooking pot. Really.

In terms of seeing some more of the system, there's quite a good documentary showing the Soke line (Takenouchi Ryu has three lines, the Soke line, the Sodenke line, and the Bitchu Den, who pronounce the name "Takeuchi Ryu", but the technical make up of each is still incredibly similar), which is on you-tube. In order, the parts are:





















When looking for other systems (Japanese) that deal with short bladed weapons, there's only really a few that deal with them much, and Takenouchi Ryu would be the most prominent. But there is also uses within some naginata systems, such as Tendo Ryu, mainly for when the swordsman opponent closes and your naginata is no longer useful. You abandon the naginata, draw your short blade, and stab away! Systems such as Araki Ryu also contain methods for using such short weapons, as do a range of others. Then you have a wide range of schools that deal with attacks from short blades, and the larger range of schools that deal with more typical short swords (kodachi, wakizashi, shoto etc), as opposed to knife work (tanto, aikuchi, yoroi doshi, kaiken etc). I will say, though, that this is just the apparent teachings... what's not apparent is a different story....

When you talk about the preference for the more "iconic" weapon (the sword), honestly, that's not the reason. These systems were largely highly pragmatic... if the lessons were presented with sword just because someone liked it, or thought it was iconic, it wouldn't survive. You also have to remember that the sword might be considered iconic to the image of the samurai today, but that wasn't always the case... especially for any system that predates the Edo period, as it was in the Edo period that the samurai were inexorably linked with the concept of swordsmanship, most particularly through the edicts that only samurai could wear the two swords as a badge of rank. Really, the reason that the sword was a favoured weapon for martial systems was that it was considered the most versatile tool in the warriors arsenal, and was the easiest way to teach strategy, tactics, angling, timing, targeting, and so forth. Nothing to do with "I'm a samurai, gotta use a sword!"

I would somewhat disagree that pragmatic defences against knife are rare... I think it's more likely that you're expecting the defences to be against forms of attack that simply weren't the reality of what would be faced. Additionally, the basis' of the defences that I've seen, from a range of systems, are highly pragmatic, and very powerful... but do need adaptation to a different attacking form. That detail is not always understood fully.


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## arnisador (Sep 30, 2012)

Thanks for all this info.! I don't doubt that there are pragmatic defenses out there--I just don't end up seeing them much (usually standard karate blocks being shown as being equally usable against knives). My experience with koryu arts is quite limited apart from books so this is eye-opening for me. The first video above contains in its two first-shown techniques some maneuvers done in a style that I have rarely seen used outside a FMA context--and I do get around and see things from other systems often enough. Logically I figured it must be out there--there's nothing new under the sun--so I'm glad to see some of it.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 1, 2012)

My pleasure. Speaking personally, when it comes to pragmatic martial arts, nothing matches Koryu... which is interesting when you consider that I don't think Koryu methods are good for dealing with modern assaults and environments. But that's another argument...


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## Aiki Lee (Oct 1, 2012)

dougmukashi said:


> The 2nd video in the list above shows some valid concepts/techniques. Watching this video, as with most MA videos I see ,it is difficult to determine the nuances of an art. The instructor is combining techniques in a flow that is good training for a student with some training. Nothing wrong there. He shows a more relaxed stance than most people are used to seeing. That, along with the combinig of multiple pins, locks, breaks, indicates that he is teaching a group of advanced students or demonstrating advanced techniques.  My opinion.



I look at these videos (the first two anyway) and see what the things presented are supposed to be, but there are quite a few things that I believe need some adjustment. I see things of value but they're all muddled up.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 2, 2012)

(Just for context for that quote, Himura.... http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/103606-Opinions-on-my-videos)


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