# Zen and the Martial Arts



## Vulcan

Anyone here practice zazen meditation and the martial arts?


How has your sitting help with your movement, and vice versa?


Have you learned to manage your anger and stress through zazen? Do you think that meditation can be a help, or a hindrance to budo? After all, how can one do no harm and practice killing at the same time?


This is an open discussion. All are welcome.


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## Vulcan

Oops, I just realized that this was meant for the "Philosophy & Spirituality" Sub forum.


This site is huge, sorry. It will take a while for me to get oriented.


Mods, please move to the correct forum. Thanks.


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## Chris Parker

Hey James,

In the interest of a new start, I'll join in on this.



Vulcan said:


> Anyone here practice zazen meditation and the martial arts?
> 
> My early karate days (Tani-ha Shito Ryu Shukokai Karate-do) involved a form, as does a koryu system I train in (as an unofficial study group), in both the instruction is limited. Essentially, there is a series of instructions (Seiza.... mokuso.... yame) and I was guided (in my karate days) to just sit there and meditate (?).
> 
> It was only many years later that I started to come to an understanding of exactly what I was really meant to be doing at that time; focusing internally, taking control of my body and mind, etc, and I gained that in no small part to the way we practice it in my schools today. For us, zazen starts each and every class, and is used to clear out the day we've had, prepare us for the class ahead, move energies (through guided visualisations) around, and more. These meditations are led by the instructor, and there are quite a few we use depending on the energy of the class in the beginning of the night.
> 
> We also use a deeper form of it for other personal development uses, again guided by the instructor, and geared towards specific goals,typically pertaining to the class at hand, although also geared towards improving the internal side of things (mental, emotional, spiritual, based on beliefs, values, behaviours, and methods of understanding and forming designed appraoches to life).
> 
> In the koryu system I use my methods from my regular classes to improve my koryu training. But that is done internally by myself for myself.
> 
> How has your sitting help with your movement, and vice versa?
> 
> Well, it hasn't really. My sitting hasn't helped my movement at all. My movement, on the other hand, has helped my movement quite a bit. My movement from a sitting position has helped my movement from a sitting position exponentially, for example. But sitting hasn't helped. At least, not in my movement. What it has helped in, though, is in my ability to push discomfort out of my mind (after being in seiza for a while), it has increased my awareness of the edges of my physical body (I become more aware of how far my arms are from my sides, for instance), and in other ways.
> 
> Have you learned to manage your anger and stress through zazen?
> 
> While I believe that that can be one of the benefits, it hasn't been related to that for me at all. For me it is more about focusing on the instant, becoming aware of what's really going on around me, and more. I don't believe that anger has any place in martial arts, so I don't involve it in the class, and that means that zazen has to be for other factors for me.
> 
> Do you think that meditation can be a help, or a hindrance to budo?
> 
> As I said, I use it to focus on the instant, the moment I am in, and as that is the essence of martial arts methods, then a help, absolutely! But it needs to be taught with the correct context. Just sitting there with your eyes closed does nothing, really, but a true meditation can have far-reaching benefits beyond even those mentioned here. In martial arts and more.
> 
> After all, how can one do no harm and practice killing at the same time?
> 
> Well, who says martial arts are about not doing harm? But if you want the philosophical answer, we simply need to look to Satsujinken and Katsujinken (the sword that takes life/kills, and the sword that gives life). The "bad" one is Satsujinken, as it is destructive, and will ultimately lead to the demise of it's wielder, whereas the Katsujinken is positive, being used for the betterment of people in general. It is used to destroy negativity and evil, and in doing so may "kill" some people, but the greater number will be saved by doing so. This concept was most famously associated with the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and Yagyu Munetoshi, although the Katori Shinto Ryu also begins it's teachings with a similar concept "Heiho wa heiho nari (the ways of war [heiho] are the ways of peace [heiho - different kanji])", although they also teach that a fully trained student of their system should be able to cut anyone down with only a single stroke of their sword...
> 
> As to how you reconcile that within yourself, well that is up to the person. Jack Hoban (Bujinkan 15th Dan) has a great book on philosophy (Ninpo: Living and Thinking as a Warrior) in which he expresses his approach, taken from his training, experiences, and one of his mentors, Robert L. Humphrey. Part of his creed is "Wherever I go, people are a little bit safer because I am there". This, to me, succinctly expresses why I train. Not so much for my protection, but for those around me. I train so that if called upon, I can do what I need to do without hesitation. This has been called on more than a few times, not always in the sense of violent confrontations I might add.
> 
> My approach to martial arts and self defence training is not about doing no harm. I really have no problem "doing harm", provided of course the situation warrants it, or more accurately, demands it. My approach is that I and my friends/girlfriends/family/loved ones/whoever I happen to be out with have the right to have an uninterrupted night. And I train so that should those interruptions occur, I can minimise their impact on my life, and the lives of those around me. That's how I see it, anyway.
> 
> This is an open discussion. All are welcome.


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## MJS

Vulcan said:


> Anyone here practice zazen meditation and the martial arts?


 
IMHO, I dont think meditation is taught correctly in some schools.  This isn't to say that there aren't some that do teach it correctly, but the ones that I've seen, no, its not done correctly.  




> How has your sitting help with your movement, and vice versa?


 
Ummm....no.  Actually, I'm not sure how sitting is going to help with movement.




> Have you learned to manage your anger and stress through zazen?


 
As Chris said, some may use it, however, I do not.  




> Do you think that meditation can be a help, or a hindrance to budo?


 
I would say a help.  Meditation, IMO, is supposed to be relaxing, and you should be relaxed in a SD situation, so yeah, its a help.



> After all, how can one do no harm and practice killing at the same time?


 
Well, there are more to the arts than killing, IMO, especially considering the fact that each and every situation should be assessed, with your response in accordance to whats happening.   In a nutshell, Chris pretty much summed my exact thoughts on how I view SD. 


This is an open discussion. All are welcome.[/quote]


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## Vulcan

"Do no harm" is a Buddhist prerequisite, not a Budo prerequisite, hence the question.


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## Chris Parker

One of those wonderful little paradoxs for many in history to deal with, though. Musashi, in the Gorin no Sho, wrote that you must be totally concerned with killing the other person in a fight (meaning that you cannot be concerned with your own life, but that's almost beside the point I'm making here), and at the same time he was highly influenced by Bhuddist scripture at the end of his life (when he is said to have written the Gorin no Sho), and it is said that you need to have a deep understanding of Bhuddist scriptures to truly understand his words. Many of the Ryu's headmasters, particularly in the last few generations, have been Bhuddist priests.

When it comes to the concept of re-incarnation, there was quite an ingenious way to explain the samurai I came across. Essentially, the samurai were the ruling class (hence, high up on the scale of reincarnation really), yet they went against Bhuddist teachings by killing, so how were they karmically punished? The way it was explained was that they were doomed to be reborn as samurai, and go through the same existance of pain, death, and blood. This may have been one reason so many turned to Bhuddist priesthood later in life (a relatively common occurance). I just find that interesting...


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## Tez3

Ruling classes have ever found a way to explain their doings, there's not many who can afford to disagree with them! I imagine the thought of having to come back as a Samurai wasn't exactly much of a threat as they would have seen themselves as 'top dogs' and who could imagine that being bad, human nature being what it is. Becoming 'religious' in old age is a fairly common thread running across many religions and thoughts, one has more time when older to consider philosophy and if you have survived combat you know old age will get you so death looms larger still. If, too, you have been strong, active and combative all your life, becoming old is unpleasant so again religious beliefs can be a comfort.


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## Vulcan

Chris Parker said:


> Musashi, in the Gorin no Sho, wrote that you must be totally concerned with killing the other person in a fight (meaning that you cannot be concerned with your own life, but that's almost beside the point I'm making here), and at the same time he was highly influenced by Bhuddist scripture at the end of his life (when he is said to have written the Gorin no Sho), and it is said that you need to have a deep understanding of Bhuddist scriptures to truly understand his words. Many of the Ryu's headmasters, particularly in the last few generations, have been Bhuddist priests.




I wonder if Takuan disowned him, or if he actually never knew him at all.

Of all of the claims about Musashi, the ones concerning his Zen practice are the most tenuous. And that is saying a lot when you consider his other legends.

I'm actually disappointed Takuan mentioned Yagyu and not Musashi. I would like to believe that he took Takuan as his teacher and became enlightened.

Oh well...


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## Chris Parker

Well, the main source for Takuan being a teacher of Musashi that I have found is again Yoshikawa Eiji's book (and the Manga series based on it). There are a large number of references to Musashi studying Buddhism throughout his works (most particularly the later works, Gorin no Sho and Dokkodo), so saying that mention of his Zen practice being the most tenuous I feel is out of place, especially considering some of the other stories attributed to him.

I wouldn't be too disappointed that there are no records of Takuan Soto mentioning Musashi, whereas he and Yagyu Munenori had a fair bit of correspondance (some of which is kept in the book The Unfettered Mind), showing in Yagyu's works such as The Life-Giving Sword. Yagyu was, after all, the Teacher to the Shogun, and Musashi, despite what many think, was rather unknown as a swordsman in Japan until Yoshikawa's book helped to popularise that aspect of his life again. Until then he was better known as an artist. 

One other thing, though. You mention that you have put the "do no harm" aspect in there as it is a precept of Buddhism, rather than martial arts, but I would point out that "zazen" simply means seated meditation, and while definately used in Buddhism, its occurance does not necessarily mean that Buddhism is present. So few people here will make the connection, unless practicing Buddhists themselves. And although Buddhist thought has influenced a great number of Japanese martial arts, Japan is a multi-theistic nation, and most Japanese see no issue being Buddhist and Shintoist, for example. And Shinto is as big an influence in the arts as well (Katori and Kashima shrines being major centres for Classical Japanese systems, giving rise to Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, Shinto Ryu, Kashima Shinryu, and many more that trace themselves back to one or another of these arts), as even Musashi was said to have travelled to the Katori Jingu in his journeys.


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## Vulcan

Sorry I have been so absent...but I have been very busy with my daily meditation, studies,  Zazenkai (zazen from 6:30am-9:00 pm with  my teachers once a month for three days), and iaido. I was nursing a dislocated shoulder from jiu-jitsu when I joined up, so I had much more time back then.

See the latest issue of Black Belt magazine for an excellent article on the benefits of meditation in the martial arts. It contains a lot of support for my assertions that sitting can greatly benefit your movements, kata, and martial mind. Or should I say, _no-mind._


Have a great week.


-James


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## Chris Parker

Hi James,

Can you provide a link to the article? I'm not about to comment on something I can't read for myself first, you understand, and we tend to get the magazine a few weeks after the US, whereas others may not get it at all.

I will, however, reiterate that meditation, sitting or otherwise, can certainly have many benefits, however I completely fail to see how sitting with your eyes closed helps movement. Visualisations of perfromance can help performance, absolutely, however that is rarely the way zazen is performed, and to go even better than that, you need to actually do it.


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## Xue Sheng

Vulcan said:


> Anyone here practice zazen meditation and the martial arts?
> 
> 
> How has your sitting help with your movement, and vice versa?
> 
> 
> Have you learned to manage your anger and stress through zazen? Do you think that meditation can be a help, or a hindrance to budo? After all, how can one do no harm and practice killing at the same time?
> 
> 
> This is an open discussion. All are welcome.


 
Just as a note, there is much more to Zen and Zen in the Martial Arts than zazen. To be honest to practice Zen in the martial arts you really do not need to sit in zazen at all.

It is also a book by the way, and a rather good one - Zen in the Martial Arts 


Also there is a lot more to Buddhism if that is what you are focusing on here with this post and Zazen. There are also various sects of Buddhism (Mahayana, Hinayana , Tantrayana, Theravada) that look at things slightly differently there are even different sects within the sects of Buddhism Tibetan, Chan, Zen and sub sects of those like Soto and Rinzai Zen

Here is more to consider

The Three Jewels
the Buddha 
the Dharma - the way the Buddha taught to live your life
the Sangha - A group of monks and other people who meet together

The Four Noble Truths
1. Life means suffering.
2. The origin of suffering is attachment.
3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.
4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

Eightfold Path
1. Right View Wisdom 
2. Right Intention 
3. Right Speech 
4. Right Action 
5. Right Livelihood 
6. Right Effort 
7. Right Mindfulness 
8. Right Concentratio 

These are the Five concepts.
1.I will not hurt a person or animal that is alive.
2.I will not take something if it was not given to me.
3.I will not have sex in a way that is harmful.
4.I will not lie or say things that hurt people.
5.I will not take intoxicants, like alcohol or drugs.
In some types of Buddhism, when a person wants to be a monk, he will follow other precepts also

The Precepts
I undertake to observe the precept to abstain from ...
1....harming living beings.
2....taking things not freely given.
3....sexual misconduct.
4....false speech.
5....intoxicating drinks and drugs causing heedlessness.
6....taking untimely meals.
7....dancing, singing, music and watching grotesque mime.
8....use of garlands, perfumes and personal adornment.
9....use of high seats.
10....accepting gold or silver.


Basically, don't over think this.


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## Vulcan

Xue Sheng said:


> Basically, don't over think this.




Good post. There is much more than zazen, but I did not want to overwhelm the conversation with a dissertation. Best to start with sitting, and end with sitting. Personally, I don't over think it, I practice daily. I am a Soto Zen Buddhist and a Martial Artist.


Chris, I will try to get you that link. You are correct, there is no visualization. In fact, to empty the mind is to give it it greatest benefit (I will go over some Takuan later). But one correction...we don't meditate with our eyes closed.


Peace.


-James


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## Xue Sheng

Soto Zen, cool... more sitting, less koan 

I am not a buddhist ,although I do practice Zazen, however my mother-in-law is a Chan Buddhist.


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## Vulcan

Xue Sheng said:


> Soto Zen, cool... more sitting, less koan
> 
> I am not a buddhist ,although I do practice Zazen, however my mother-in-law is a Chan Buddhist.





I do not see it as a matter of "more or less". As a former student of Rinzai, we meditated in Rinzai, as a current student of Soto, we take the public record (koan). My sensei would say "not two".


Back to Chris...

Chris,

 I invite you to explore this matter further if you are interested. If you are not interested, then I welcome you to drop it. It would be impossible to talk about something that only one of us have experienced. It would be like one of us having a full bladder and expecting the other one to empty it for them. It simply can't be done. I was introduced to Zen about 25 years ago and only now am I developing my taste for it to the point where I can appreciate the subtlety of it's flavour.

May you be well.

-James


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## Chris Parker

Hi James.



Vulcan said:


> Back to Chris...
> 
> Chris,
> 
> I invite you to explore this matter further if you are interested. If you are not interested, then I welcome you to drop it. It would be impossible to talk about something that only one of us have experienced. It would be like one of us having a full bladder and expecting the other one to empty it for them. It simply can't be done. I was introduced to Zen about 25 years ago and only now am I developing my taste for it to the point where I can appreciate the subtlety of it's flavour.
> 
> May you be well.
> 
> -James


 
Frankly, I'm not sure where this has come from. You start this thread with the statement "All are welcome to participate", refer only to zazen, which is simply seated ("za") meditation ("zen"), without specifically refering to any particular Buddhist sect or faction, just asking how seated meditations helped anyone with their movement, if at all. And, frankly, I have been the most vocal in this thread, with Xue Sheng adding some great info as well.

My suggestion to yourself is to either add in all the context you wish to be a factor of the discussion, in which case you can dictate it's direction (but if you are now only asking that those interested or involved in Soto Buddhism to contribute, you are probably going to have a very lonely thread....), as this really seems to come out of nowhere. Either you want a discussion or you don't.


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## Xue Sheng

Vulcan said:


> I do not see it as a matter of "more or less". As a former student of Rinzai, we meditated in Rinzai, as a current student of Soto, we take the public record (koan). My sensei would say "not two".


 
alrighty then

It was kind of a toungue and cheek reference based on what Soto is as compared to Rinzai historically...hence the  that was at the end.




Vulcan said:


> Chris,
> 
> I invite you to explore this matter further if you are interested. If you are not interested, then I welcome you to drop it. It would be impossible to talk about something that only one of us have experienced. It would be like one of us having a full bladder and expecting the other one to empty it for them. It simply can't be done. I was introduced to Zen about 25 years ago and only now am I developing my taste for it to the point where I can appreciate the subtlety of it's flavour.
> 
> May you be well.
> 
> -James


 
Nice reference to an old Zen story, but that is in reference to someone asking a Zen master "What is Zen" and I do not think that is what Chris asked you, you were discussing zazen and that does not necessarily mean you have any link to Zen Buddhism at all. If you read anything by Jon Kabat-Zinn he is basically doing Zazen that is for the most part Buddhism free.


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## Vulcan

Chris Parker said:


> I completely fail to see how sitting with your eyes closed helps movement.




This does not imply that you want to learn, but that you have your mind made up. That is not "discussing" but more like "cutting". I could be wrong, so I led with "I invite you to explore this matter further". If you do not want to, and simply have your mind made up that it doesn't work then I invited you to "drop it", i.e. I am not going to waste time trying to convince you, as this is not my goal to win you over. 


You already meditate before class and explore deeper meditation practice in your Ninpo. So we are having a "violent agreement" I think it's called?

It is very hard to have these kind of esoteric discussions online, and frankly I have never tried it before, especially concerning the fighting arts which many in the Buddhist community do not understand.

I will chalk it up to poor communication on my part, as I suppose I have not been able to properly direct the thread to the liking of the two of you, and for that I am sorry. 


-James


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## Xue Sheng

Not liking or disliking just a bit of confusion.. that is all


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## Chris Parker

Vulcan said:


> This does not imply that you want to learn, but that you have your mind made up. That is not "discussing" but more like "cutting". I could be wrong, so I led with "I invite you to explore this matter further". If you do not want to, and simply have your mind made up that it doesn't work then I invited you to "drop it", i.e. I am not going to waste time trying to convince you, as this is not my goal to win you over.
> 
> 
> You already meditate before class and explore deeper meditation practice in your Ninpo. So we are having a "violent agreement" I think it's called?
> 
> It is very hard to have these kind of esoteric discussions online, and frankly I have never tried it before, especially concerning the fighting arts which many in the Buddhist community do not understand.
> 
> I will chalk it up to poor communication on my part, as I suppose I have not been able to properly direct the thread to the liking of the two of you, and for that I am sorry.
> 
> 
> -James


 
Not really, the entire post was asking you if you could supply a link to the article you say backs up your concept of sitting helping movement. I then continued to say that I can see no relation there, so if your article can give some support, I'd be very interested to read it. That's all.


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## Chris Parker

Vulcan said:


> See the latest issue of Black Belt magazine for an excellent article on the benefits of meditation in the martial arts. It contains a lot of support for my assertions that sitting can greatly benefit your movements, kata, and martial mind. Or should I say, _no-mind._
> 
> 
> Have a great week.
> 
> 
> -James


 
Hi James,

I'm going to go back to this, if you don't mind. The new issue is out here now, and I was giving it a quick look-over during my lunch break today, however I didn't see any article that matches this description. The closest was an interview with an ex-Marine who has trained in Shaolin Kung Fu, BJJ, and MMA, which mentioned zazen in one brief answer to a question, but that was not what I considered any support of your contention here.

Basically he was asked about the "ancient warriors", and said that samurai didn't suffer from post-traumatic stress due to things like zazen, calligraphy, haiku, and flower-arranging. He failed to realise that that was not accurate (in a number of ways), and also got his historical details wrong in terms of how long the samurai fought across Japan (he gives "300 years", when it was closer to 600. He probably mis-used the figure from the length of the time of peace brought in by the Tokugawa Shogunate....).

What was the title of the article you are refering to, so I can have a closer look for it next time I'm near a newsagent?


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## Vulcan

Chris Parker said:


> What was the title of the article you are refering to, so I can have a closer look for it next time I'm near a newsagent?




No, it was a full length article in the September issue Chris.

I will need to find a back issue and try to scan it, as it's already off the shelves.


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## Chris Parker

Cool, let me know when you find it, I'm rather intrigued now...


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## Vulcan

Chris Parker said:


> Not really, the entire post was asking you if you could supply a link to the article you say backs up your concept of sitting helping movement. I then continued to say that I can see no relation there, so if your article can give some support, I'd be very interested to read it. That's all.





In re-reading the entire thread, you are correct. Please be patient as I track down the article in between my studying, training, and practice (not to mention day-to-day common activities).

I generally don't read Black Belt, but the article caught my eye so I read it at the bookstore in one sitting. I should have bought it on the spot. C'est la vie.


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## Janina

First you have to remember that practicing Martial Art is not way to use violence, so technically speaking you cannot say that martial art would be against Buddhist principle of not harming living beings. When you start to kick and punch people on the street you are using violence, but then you are no more practicing martial art, but violence!

I am personally Zen-Instructor on Zen Community and practice Martial Arts as form of meditation and Dharma Gate leading to Chan. To me these two are inseparable. By practicing Zazen I practice my Art and by practicing my Art I am practicing meditation.

I think Zazen may help enormously your practice. It teaches you integrity, strenght and stamina while also compassion and understanding of the nature of reality. Vice versa your MA may teach you these same things and act as gate to spiritual understanding. I think these two suite just well!


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## oaktree

> First you have to remember that practicing Martial Art is not way to use violence,



It is a way for some to protect themselves or self defense for others it is the best way to use violence such as in war.
 Martial arts were designed to cause harm period. Now is that harm to protect something or not is up to the individual.


> technically speaking you cannot say that martial art would be against Buddhist principle of not harming living beings


 Even the Buddha killed it is in one of the sutras. That sutra deals with the Buddha knowing the intent of someone else and kills him to save the person's life and save the other from being rebirthed into hell. So harming living things is a tricky subject as in if killing a child to save millions which one do you choose as both result in harming life.


> When you start to kick and punch people on the street you are using violence, but then you are no more practicing martial art, but violence!


 Say someone tries to rape my wife and I kick him off my wife then punch him in the face I am practicing martial arts because I am saving my wife to think otherwise is ignorant.



> I am personally Zen-Instructor on Zen Community and practice Martial Arts as form of meditation and Dharma Gate leading to Chan


 You have said this before on other posts you sound egocentric to keep mentioning it oh the irony. You can use martial arts as a way to connect your mind and body or spirit whatever but you could do the same cooking or cleaning. I like the idea that martial arts _can be used as a way to connect inner peace or whatever,_But I understand that the things I am doing as in FMA with a knife were designed to kill or maim someone or with a sword were to kill someone and not flutter around in theory.


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## Janina

Yes, we are all egocentric beings. Some of us can admit it, but some can´t. Which one are you?

About MA and violence. Yes techniques has been designed to destroy life, yes practicing is practicing to use of these methods. I however said that practice itself is not violence. It is practice. Little like meditation is not performance but practice.

One of the dilemmas of Buddhism comes with the precepts we take. In Boddhisattva precept I have promised to never kill living being, but simultaneously I realize it is impossible never not-kill anyone. However we make the promise with intent to always keep it.

Now some may ask why to make promise if it is impossible to keep it? The answer is in understanding the impermanent nature of reality. In universe, life or anything there is no permanent self, but things change from moment to moment without break. This of course gives interesting perspective to Buddhist precepts, you have to understand this nature of reality and proport your actions to changing reality. For example, our precepts deny lying but killing also. Now if I have to lie to save somebody´s life I break my precept, but if I tell the truth and cause his death I break my precept also. Then what should I do? I have to act by the moment and choose my action by the information I have. There is no holy book or god to tell me the correct answer, I have to find it from myself.

Thank you for your great feedback!

-Janina


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## oaktree

> Yes, we are all egocentric beings. Some of us can admit it, but some can´t. Which one are you?


Which ever one you think I am. 


> About MA and violence. Yes techniques has been designed to destroy life, yes practicing is practicing to use of these methods. I however said that practice itself is not violence. It is practice. Little like meditation is not performance but practice.


And people cook food because it is not meant to be eaten. I get you _can _use martial arts or arranging flowers as a means to cultivate the mind and practice in itself is not violence but same could be said with firing a gun at the firing range sure your not practicing violence you are practicing the tools to use it in a violence encounter should such a case arise.


> One of the dilemmas of Buddhism comes with the precepts we take. In Boddhisattva precept I have promised to never kill living being, but simultaneously I realize it is impossible never not-kill anyone. However we make the promise with intent to always keep it.


 What if the person is suffering would you give a merciful kill to end their suffering?
What if killing someone saves millions of people.


> Now some may ask why to make promise if it is impossible to keep it? The answer is in understanding the impermanent nature of reality. In universe, life or anything there is no permanent self, but things change from moment to moment without break. This of course gives interesting perspective to Buddhist precepts, you have to understand this nature of reality and proport your actions to changing reality. For example, our precepts deny lying but killing also. Now if I have to lie to save somebody´s life I break my precept, but if I tell the truth and cause his death I break my precept also. Then what should I do? I have to act by the moment and choose my action by the information I have. There is no holy book or god to tell me the correct answer, I have to find it from myself.


I'd hope you would use common moral sense. Like if someone said I am going to kill everyone named Oaktree you would say your name is Bob you don't need to look deep within or ponder how many farts Buddha can produce to do this.


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## Xue Sheng

An Egocentric instructor at a zen center :hmm:\



> Meaning of EGOCENTRIC
> 1: concerned with the individual rather than society
> 2: taking the ego as the starting point in philosophy
> 3a : limited in outlook or concern to one's own activities or needs



You may want yo review these

The Four Noble Truths
http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/fourtruths.html

The Eightfold path
http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/eightfoldpath.html

The Five Skandhas 
http://buddhism.about.com/od/whatistheself/a/skandhasexplan.htm


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## Janina

Xue Sheng said:


> An Egocentric instructor at a zen center :hmm:\
> 
> 
> 
> You may want yo review these
> 
> The Four Noble Truths
> http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/fourtruths.html
> 
> The Eightfold path
> http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/eightfoldpath.html
> 
> The Five Skandhas
> http://buddhism.about.com/od/whatistheself/a/skandhasexplan.htm




Egocentric by your definition.. 

These Buddhist primary teachings are always great object of study to all of us!

Thank you for posting them..


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## Janina

oaktree said:


> What if the person is suffering would you give a merciful kill to end their suffering?
> What if killing someone saves millions of people.
> .



I think it depends very much on context. There is no one absolutely correct answer to any of these questions.

I am a practitioner of MA and yes I could use my fighting skills for self defence without moral dilemma if the situation would demand it. I never said I couldn´t. I just said that doing practice in my eyes is not form of using violence. Oh yes, it is practice of these methods but not violence itself. If you go to restaurant will you eat the menu or order something from menu? I mean menu includes many kind of foods you may enjoy, but menu itself is not food..

To me the main issue is still on Zazen. I think personally it has helped me a lot on growning patience, strenght and skills to focus mind. I practice it daily, and do it also as part of my MA training when practicing it.


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## Xue Sheng

Janina said:


> Egocentric by your definition..



Since we are speaking English it is the definition of the word. If we are aloud to make up our own definitions the language has little meaning.... for I could then say form no on 'No" means this is for you and since you are using your definition and expecting me to understand it I could then assume hat from now on when I say 'no' everyone knows I mean 'this is for you' and that would be an unreasonable expectation

Care to explain your meaning of egocentric


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## oaktree

Your anology to menu would be the equivalent of watching not doing as menu and watching a martial art class
Have the same goal. Cooking and doing martial arts are both active doing. 
Anyway do what you want and believe whatcha want.


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## Janina

Xue Sheng said:


> Care to explain your meaning of egocentric



I don´t mean anything by the term egocentric. We all have our egos and my ego does not care what somebody says me to be. So if somebody not even knowing me calls me that it is their right as long as they don´t get hostile.

After all, I was not the one to use the term at first place, so I don´t feel need to give my own definition to it..


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## Janina

oaktree said:


> Your anology to menu would be the equivalent of watching not doing as menu and watching a martial art class
> Have the same goal. Cooking and doing martial arts are both active doing.
> Anyway do what you want and believe whatcha want.



Yes they are. Practicing MA is the way to teach oneself to use certain methods like punches and kicks. Cooking is the way to make up food. However what you do with the food or your skills is up to you. If you eat the dinner it is your choice. If you use your art in fight that also is your choice. I personally practice because with proper knowledge I know better how to avoid violent situations on streets and bars. If I however would have to use my skills I would use minimum amount to take care of situation, like I do like to eat moderately to keep my body in good shape and mind as sharp as possible..


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## oaktree

Here is why I said you seem Egocentric in my earlier post. 


> I am also a practitioner of Tibetan tradition and have been studying both Nyingma- and Kagyu sects I am a Zen Instructor
> I am a Zen Instructor in Soto-Zen tradition
> Cause I am a Zen Instructor in Soto sect of Zen-Buddhist tradition


Do you see the Irony?


> Cooking is the way to make up food. However what you do with the food or your skills is up to you


Which goes to the point of why would someone cook if they have no intent of eating or having it eaten. I am cooking potatoes now it seems illogical to just cook the potatoes just so I can cultivate mindfulness but you say potato I say podado as the song goes. 


> I personally practice because with proper knowledge I know better how to avoid violent situations on streets and bars.


 You don't need martial arts to know this. My 70 old mother never practice a day in her life but even she knows to avoid certain areas common sense.


> however would have to use my skills I would use minimum amount to take care of situation,





> First you have to remember that practicing Martial Art is not way to use violence, so technically speaking you cannot say thatmartial art would be against Buddhist principle of not harming living beings. When you start to kick and punch people on the street you are using violence, but then you are no more practicing martial art, but violence!


In other words you are saying martial arts is not a way to use violence *unless* you need to in order to protect yourself.
That makes sense if that is your stand.


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## Janina

Now you are putting your words to my mouth. I said that using violence in real life situation and practicing for that are not one and same thing. Fighting and fighting are. So tecnically practicing martial art does not yet make you a user of violence like meditation does not automatically make you enlightened. It is all, like you said yourself, about intention. If you practice for fight, you practice for fight.
Of course if I make food to myself I eat it, I can also make food for others like Karate teacher who uses his skill to teaching rather than fighting. Then I may cook for getting my living out of that like cooks do. IT IS YOUR INTENTION WHAT MAKES YOUR ACTIONS TO BE WHAT THEY ARE.

I can also say, that your reason to practice is not automatically my reason for practice, cause your practice is yours and my is my.

Yes, I can see the irony in your intention. Like I told, I have taken refuges in two traditions. Tantric in Tibetan tradition and Bodhisattva precept in Soto-tradition. That´s because I have practiced both Mantra and Chan in my last twenty years on practice. I have also practiced Koan and Shikantaza at the same time. Maybe you tell me what is the problem here?

Kissies: Janina  

p.s. Your granny is a smart lady!


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## Tgace

IMO you can reap benefits from Zazen without having to adhere to any Buddhist precepts.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## Janina

Tgace said:


> IMO you can reap benefits from Zazen without having to adhere to any Buddhist precepts.
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2



Agreed with this. Personally I know quite a few practitioners of Zazen who have never taken any Buddhist precepts and few who say they don´t even care about Buddhism. I think Zazen may be adopted no matter what your religion, philosophy or ideology is. I know Christian people doing Zazen, atheists doing it and Buddhists who do it. They all got their own reasons and that suites just well.

I personally have find meditation to be great tool for practicing Martial Art. It helps me to focus to my practice and forget other things during my session. There is no reason to mystify Zazen however. Siting and staring the wall is after all sitting and staring the wall..


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## Ben S

Vulcan said:


> Anyone here practice zazen meditation and the martial arts?
> 
> 
> How has your sitting help with your movement, and vice versa?
> 
> 
> Have you learned to manage your anger and stress through zazen? Do you think that meditation can be a help, or a hindrance to budo? After all, how can one do no harm and practice killing at the same time?
> 
> 
> This is an open discussion. All are welcome.



I'm coming at this from a different angle. I trained at a zen buddhist temple in Boston in the art of Shim Gum Do. This art was created by Chang Sik Kim during a retreat in which he was inspired to create this art in all its forms. It is not a well-known martial art and there are questions and issues related to it that I won't go into. The point is that this is a Zen master and his art is about that - self-realization. Sitting meditation is part of the training, but the art itself (I skipped sword training and studied empty-hand exclusively) - is moving meditation. I could write a book about how this changed my martial arts path from Japanese Karate, but  I don't want to convert anyone. I would say that INSTEAD of sitting, I trained in the very complex and seamless movements of the forms of which I learned 23. I had experiences identical to those I'd reached in sitting meditation, but amplified a hundredfold. As others have said here - sitting doesn't help you learn to move, but it does help with concentration, relaxed awareness, discipline, etc. I need to MOVE - to have found this art which is in essence moving meditation, changed my life. The attention to momentum and gravity, transitioning from movement to movement is different than any other martial art in which I've trained, except for baguazhang which has that similar flow. The reason it is a Zen martial art, even if you don't subscribe to the creator's story (I do) - is because the art is complex enough that it engages you fully - your mind cannot drift when doing this art. In the general sense, any martial art or any activity you do which fully unites mind and body can be said to be a zen martial art. I still practice my first martial art - Uechi Ryu, and love its structure and elegance and fighting efficacy - but it stops and starts and so doesn't have that same flow. Again, baguazhang flows in this way - you can't stop your mind for a second to think of anything else - this is the zen state of mind. So sitting - even as a zen practitioner, I don't have the patience for it - haha. I use martial arts as zen training - after years of practicing an art that requires my brain to pay full attention to what my body is doing, I've found my path as a martial artist - perhaps it's a more internal path in that self-realization and energy cultivation are its main goals.


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## hoshin1600

Ben S said:


> I'm coming at this from a different angle. I trained at a zen buddhist temple in Boston in the art of Shim Gum Do. This art was created by Chang Sik Kim during a retreat in which he was inspired to create this art in all its forms. It is not a well-known martial art and there are questions and issues related to it that I won't go into. The point is that this is a Zen master and his art is about that - self-realization. Sitting meditation is part of the training, but the art itself (I skipped sword training and studied empty-hand exclusively) - is moving meditation. I could write a book about how this changed my martial arts path from Japanese Karate, but  I don't want to convert anyone. I would say that INSTEAD of sitting, I trained in the very complex and seamless movements of the forms of which I learned 23. I had experiences identical to those I'd reached in sitting meditation, but amplified a hundredfold. As others have said here - sitting doesn't help you learn to move, but it does help with concentration, relaxed awareness, discipline, etc. I need to MOVE - to have found this art which is in essence moving meditation, changed my life. The attention to momentum and gravity, transitioning from movement to movement is different than any other martial art in which I've trained, except for baguazhang which has that similar flow. The reason it is a Zen martial art, even if you don't subscribe to the creator's story (I do) - is because the art is complex enough that it engages you fully - your mind cannot drift when doing this art. In the general sense, any martial art or any activity you do which fully unites mind and body can be said to be a zen martial art. I still practice my first martial art - Uechi Ryu, and love its structure and elegance and fighting efficacy - but it stops and starts and so doesn't have that same flow. Again, baguazhang flows in this way - you can't stop your mind for a second to think of anything else - this is the zen state of mind. So sitting - even as a zen practitioner, I don't have the patience for it - haha. I use martial arts as zen training - after years of practicing an art that requires my brain to pay full attention to what my body is doing, I've found my path as a martial artist - perhaps it's a more internal path in that self-realization and energy cultivation are its main goals.



I am glad you found your path. I am sending a PM.


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## Buka

Ben S said:


> I'm coming at this from a different angle. I trained at a zen buddhist temple in Boston in the art of Shim Gum Do. This art was created by Chang Sik Kim during a retreat in which he was inspired to create this art in all its forms. It is not a well-known martial art and there are questions and issues related to it that I won't go into. The point is that this is a Zen master and his art is about that - self-realization. Sitting meditation is part of the training, but the art itself (I skipped sword training and studied empty-hand exclusively) - is moving meditation. I could write a book about how this changed my martial arts path from Japanese Karate, but  I don't want to convert anyone. I would say that INSTEAD of sitting, I trained in the very complex and seamless movements of the forms of which I learned 23. I had experiences identical to those I'd reached in sitting meditation, but amplified a hundredfold. As others have said here - sitting doesn't help you learn to move, but it does help with concentration, relaxed awareness, discipline, etc. I need to MOVE - to have found this art which is in essence moving meditation, changed my life. The attention to momentum and gravity, transitioning from movement to movement is different than any other martial art in which I've trained, except for baguazhang which has that similar flow. The reason it is a Zen martial art, even if you don't subscribe to the creator's story (I do) - is because the art is complex enough that it engages you fully - your mind cannot drift when doing this art. In the general sense, any martial art or any activity you do which fully unites mind and body can be said to be a zen martial art. I still practice my first martial art - Uechi Ryu, and love its structure and elegance and fighting efficacy - but it stops and starts and so doesn't have that same flow. Again, baguazhang flows in this way - you can't stop your mind for a second to think of anything else - this is the zen state of mind. So sitting - even as a zen practitioner, I don't have the patience for it - haha. I use martial arts as zen training - after years of practicing an art that requires my brain to pay full attention to what my body is doing, I've found my path as a martial artist - perhaps it's a more internal path in that self-realization and energy cultivation are its main goals.



We have a commonality, my friend, I grew up just a couple miles from that Temple.


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## Ben S

Buka said:


> We have a commonality, my friend, I grew up just a couple miles from that Temple.



Did you ever train there? It's an amazing martial art, but mostly unknown. You have to take the zen buddhism with it, which was actually a plus for me. I never did anything with sword, but training his empty-hand art taught me a lot about how to use gravity and momentum among other things. I haven't visited them in years - I'm on the northshore of mass now - and a solo practitioner, but still do the 20 forms I learned there - there's nothing else quite like them. Thanks for reaching out.


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## Buka

Ben S said:


> Did you ever train there? It's an amazing martial art, but mostly unknown. You have to take the zen buddhism with it, which was actually a plus for me. I never did anything with sword, but training his empty-hand art taught me a lot about how to use gravity and momentum among other things. I haven't visited them in years - I'm on the northshore of mass now - and a solo practitioner, but still do the 20 forms I learned there - there's nothing else quite like them. Thanks for reaching out.



I was a little kid, hadn't trained yet, I don't know if it was even there at that time. But I passed by it a year ago, on one of those "one last look" kind of things about where you've lived. When you mentioned it, I thought "Hey, I know where that is!"


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