# Packing heat



## zDom (Feb 15, 2007)

Being someone who has _never_ carried but is considering training and applying for a CCW, is carrying a big hunk of metal not a pain in the ***?

I mean, I don't even like to wear JEWELRY ...

How much of a risk is there to it going off if you fall, bump something hard?

I'm thinking about the CCW just to be able to keep one in the vehicle.

FWIW, I am leaning toward a Glock as my dad had/has one and Ive heard a lot of good things about them (I read the Glock thread a minute ago, too, btw).


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## Grenadier (Feb 15, 2007)

zDom said:


> is carrying a big hunk of metal not a pain in the ***?


 
No.  It's not a pain, especially if you do a bit of planing beforehand.  



> I mean, I don't even like to wear JEWELRY ...


 
Same here.  I have a watch, and only on formal occasions, I'll use my old college ring.  



> How much of a risk is there to it going off if you fall, bump something hard?


 
If you do things properly, for example, getting a good quality leather or Kydex holster, that covers the trigger guard, and if you have a firearm of reasonable quality that has a firing / striker pin block (almost all new ones made by reputable manufacturers do), then the chances are zero, assuming that one remembers to keep the finger out of the trigger guard until actually firing.  

Those chances are zero even if a gun does not have a manual safety, since the most important safety is the one between the ears.  

If, on the other hand, you try to carry "Mexican-style," where someone simply tucks the gun into the waistband, no holster, or if you have a bad habit of keeping your finger in the trigger guard while re-holstering, then those chances are significant.  





> FWIW, I am leaning toward a Glock as my dad had/has one and Ive heard a lot of good things about them (I read the Glock thread a minute ago, too, btw).


 
Excellent choice.  You get a lightweight pistol (most weigh around 22-24 ounces, unloaded, versus 32-36 ounces for a steel framed handgun), that combines excellent reliability, firepower, and accuracy into one package.


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## bydand (Feb 15, 2007)

zDom said:


> Being someone who has _never_ carried but is considering training and applying for a CCW, is carrying a big hunk of metal not a pain in the ***?
> 
> I mean, I don't even like to wear JEWELRY ...



I wear nothing other than my wedding band for jewlery.  At first you notice it, but after a very short time (we are talking hour or so) you don't even know it's there.  I used to carry a 7 1/2'" barreled .44 Mag Ruger Super Blackhawk in a shoulder holster when I went fishing (not a small gun by any stretch of the imagination.)  I have walked into my regular bank with it on because I forgot it was there.  



> How much of a risk is there to it going off if you fall, bump something hard?



For a modern gun the risk is miniscule.





> I'm thinking about the CCW just to be able to keep one in the vehicle.
> 
> FWIW, I am leaning toward a Glock as my dad had/has one and Ive heard a lot of good things about them (I read the Glock thread a minute ago, too, btw).



I like a Glock, I have a personal preference of revolvers, but they are a bigger pain to carry usually.


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## Ceicei (Feb 15, 2007)

A pain?  No.  It would be more of a pain to actually need it and not have it.  With a good holster and proper adjustment, it is possible to be relatively comfortable carrying one.  Since each person is physically different, you will need to experiment which type of handgun and how best to carry it.  You also are conscious with how you dress to maximize concealment.

For me, I've found crossdraw (appendix carry) with a rearward cant works well.  Mine is a Glock too.  I haven't fallen with it and driving is not too much of a problem (so far, I've made short drives) while wearing it.  

It does take time getting used to carrying it around concealed.  When I first carried, I felt almost overly sensitive, as if I had an unseen neon sign floating somewhere above me proclaiming I have a firearm.  It felt so obvious and unfamiliar.  With time and awareness, it is possible to be able to comfortably walk around without inadvertently calling attention by behavior. 

- Ceicei


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## Grenadier (Feb 15, 2007)

BTW, the Miami PD conducted a test where a Glock was chambered with a primed piece of brass, and chucked against a steel-reinforced concrete wall, using a clays chucker.  The gun was repeatedly hurled against the wall at a velocity of about 40 MPH, and the gun never once went off.  

Thus, I strongly doubt falling on a Glock is going to cause any problems.  

The only way it's going to go off, is if there's something in the trigger guard pulling on the trigger.


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## Defensive Edge Training (Feb 15, 2007)

:shooter:
If you like the Glock, take a look at the baby Glock. I have large hands and am very comfortable holding large frame guns. The small Glock however fits very nice and seems to be more comfortable shooting then the larger Glocks like the 21 (.45). 

You mentioned that you prefer a revolver. Small revolvers are very concealable. the only disadvantage is that a pistol usually allows you to carry more ammunition and they are easy to reload. That said, if you practise enough and go with a small framed gun the choice boils down to what makes you more comfortable. 

The reality is that if you have to use it to defend yourself at close range, the small guns are the way to go. I think that a close range scenario is more likely to happen, then a threat, say from 20 yds.


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## jks9199 (Feb 15, 2007)

zDom said:


> Being someone who has _never_ carried but is considering training and applying for a CCW, is carrying a big hunk of metal not a pain in the ***?
> 
> I mean, I don't even like to wear JEWELRY ...
> 
> ...


 
Is carrying a gun a pain in the ***?  Yes.  They're an extra item, concealment takes some forethought, and you have to have a plan for securing it SAFELY if you go somewhere you can't carry (like, depending on state laws, almost any restaurant that serves alcohol).

But... Is it worth carrying one?  I do.  I'm a cop, and that's a deciding factor, since I am subject to duty.  My first few years, I admit, I didn't always carry off duty.  Then, during one particular stretch (the DC area snipers), I realized that I would feel like an *** if I was right next to them, and had to say "pretty please don't shoot someone else" with nothing to add some OOMPH to the request.  As a police officer, I have a different responsibility -- and, in my own personal opinion and judgement, I choose to carry almost anytime I leave the house.

As to accidental discharges... Most guns (and Glocks especially) today are very difficult to fire without putting a finger (or something) on the trigger.

If you're thinking about getting a permit just to keep a gun in the car -- how do you plan on securing that gun from theft or curious fingers?  How will you access it in an emergency?  

I happen to like Glocks; they're user-friendly and tolerant of poor care.  

What I'd suggest is to get the training (at least the classroom portion), and decide following that and after you've thought about some of the issues in CCW.  Worst case... you've had a class, and can decide you don't want to carry.


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 15, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Is carrying a gun a pain in the ***? Yes. They're an extra item, concealment takes some forethought, and you have to have a plan for securing it SAFELY if you go somewhere you can't carry (like, depending on state laws, almost any restaurant that serves alcohol).
> 
> But... Is it worth carrying one? I do. I'm a cop, and that's a deciding factor, since I am subject to duty. My first few years, I admit, I didn't always carry off duty. Then, during one particular stretch (the DC area snipers), I realized that I would feel like an *** if I was right next to them, and had to say "pretty please don't shoot someone else" with nothing to add some OOMPH to the request. As a police officer, I have a different responsibility -- and, in my own personal opinion and judgement, I choose to carry almost anytime I leave the house.
> 
> ...


 
LISTEN to that last bit.

The only way you can guarantee or come as close as realistically possible to a guarantee that that gun can't be stolen is if it's hidden and always on you, under your direct control. In many states glove box carry may even be illegal, make certain.

A gun that is not visible cannot be subject to a snatch attempt.

The flip side to that is should you find yourself in a fight which doesn't require drawing, and he gets to grips with you you must now do absolutely EVERYTHING in your power to put him out so he does not gain control of it should his hands contact it.


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## Ceicei (Feb 16, 2007)

Andy Moynihan said:


> The only way you can guarantee or come as close as realistically possible to a guarantee that that gun can't be stolen is if it's hidden and always on you, under your direct control. In many states glove box carry may even be illegal, make certain.



This is a point worth emphasizing.  If anyone wants to consider packing heat, it will be well to study the laws and codes of your state/country as much as possible and putting in the appropriate training to become familiar with the firearms.  Learn to know what can and can't be done with the firearms (whether as on-person carry or secured nearby in the event on-person carry isn't possible).

- Ceicei


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## tellner (Feb 16, 2007)

Good points, all.

I've carried everything from NAA .22s that you can fit in your mouth to a Colt Python with a six inch barrel. They are all something to think about, but with the right holster or other carrier almost all of them were comfortable, discreet and readily accessible. Of course, I usually carry about fifteen pounds of stuff around anyway - electronics, tools, first aid kit, spare meds, etc - so it got lost in the general clutter 

Big service pistols like the full sized Glock require a bit more care. Something along the lines of the Sig 239, small Kahrs, Colt Commanders or small hammerless revolvers are much easier. If it's too awkward you won't carry it, and a .22 in your hands beats the heck out of a .45 at home on the mantlepiece.

Everyone who carries a firearm has a closet full of holsters that didn't quite work out. Keep trying them until you find out a couple that do.


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## SFC JeffJ (Feb 16, 2007)

Carrying is a pain in the ***, especially when you first start doing it.  I really don't have a lot to what's already been said, but you will get used to it.  Eventually, you'll notice it's absence more that it's presence.

Jeff


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## zDom (Feb 16, 2007)

I did an article on our state's (Missouri) CCW and can't recall the specifics, but the law DOES allow carrying the weapon in your vehicle.

I would, of course, review those specifics before placing it in my vehicle.

I say in my vehicle because so many of the places I go while on duty as a news reporter are places where they have posted the "no carrying concealed weapon" signs such as courthouses, schools, etc.

On the OTHER hand, I would like to be able to grab the weapon/holster and place it on my person when I go to more dangerous locations.

That whole "better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it" rings true ...

Also, being in a small town and known to be martial artists of some ability, if someone specifically decided to target me or my family for a home invasion, abduction or other crime, they are very likely to do so armed with a firearm.


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## arnisandyz (Feb 16, 2007)

I carry this where ever I go. It fits nicely in the front pocket.

http://www.kmart.com/catalog/produc...d=1152&N=1395+310000000&Nty=1&categoryId=1395


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## Ceicei (Feb 16, 2007)

arnisandyz said:


> I carry this where ever I go. It fits nicely in the front pocket.
> 
> http://www.kmart.com/catalog/produc...d=1152&N=1395+310000000&Nty=1&categoryId=1395



It took me a while to finally realize what you were saying and how this relates to the subject.  Thanks for the giggle.

- Ceicei


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## Blotan Hunka (Feb 16, 2007)

Glock makes some nice, full-power compact weapons. All the Glock features in a small package. I have a Glock 27 .40.


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## magaskins (Mar 1, 2007)

I have a few that I choose from for concealed carry and they each have their place; If the situation permits me to wear a larger shirt untucked I carry a Glock 30 IWB right hip. If I need to wear business attire, I carry an S&W 340PD in a Galco ankle holster. Lastly is my Colt Combat Commander in a jackass shoulder rig (works best for motorcycle riding).

If your primary concerns are carrying around a "big hunk of metal" and guaranteed no AD's, do yourself a favor and look into the S&W Airlite 340 (hammerless) or 360 revolvers. they are Scandium frame with a titanium cylinder chambered in .357 Magnum.

Do be very aware that the Airlite and Airweight series revolvers are absolute animals with magnum loads; if you decide to go this route, work yourself up from .38 sp to magnum loads...

Good luck!


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## LawDog (Mar 2, 2007)

Arnisandyz,
That was very good. 
For firearms saftey there is a few new device's being developed. A finger print and palm print reader built into the firearms grips. If your hand in not on the grip then the gun will not function.
Downside, if you have gloves on----. If you are in law enforcement and loose your firearm you will not be able to us someone elses.
Another device, more promising than the the print reader, a proximity card. It is the same type of device used to get into buildings etc. If the firearm is not close to the card it will not work.
Downside, if you forget the card then you have a problem. If you are in law enforcement / security and loose the use of your firearm, if you borrow someone else's backup peice you will have to stay in range of the card.
How these cards work and their range I do not know yet.


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## jks9199 (Mar 2, 2007)

LawDog said:


> Arnisandyz,
> That was very good.
> For firearms saftey there is a few new device's being developed. A finger print and palm print reader built into the firearms grips. If your hand in not on the grip then the gun will not function.
> Downside, if you have gloves on----. If you are in law enforcement and loose your firearm you will not be able to us someone elses.
> ...


A few of these gadgets ("key" rings, fingerprint scanners, etc) to prevent unauthorized users from firing a given gun have been floating around for several years, at least in development or test stages.  What I've seen hasn't impressed me, and I don't think many of them are likely to see much use -- unless some legislators decide to mandate them.  The simple truth is that any gun that's intended for defensive use has to be carried or stored in a somewhat unsafe manner.  Why?  Because the safest way to carry or store a gun is unloaded, and physically prevented from loading, like with a gun lock.  But -- if you want to defend yourself with the gun, it needs to be loaded with one in the chamber already; only in the world of TV & movies do you have time to rack a slide or load the gun...  

I can virtually guarantee that until there's some major technical advancement, you won't see these measures used on service weapons for law enforcement.  When we need our guns -- we NEED our guns and we can't risk having the gun "locked out" because of technical glitches.


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## INDYFIGHTER (Mar 2, 2007)

Most of the time I forget I even have my kel-tek .380 on me.  It's the size weight of a cell phone.  Fits in the front pocet of my jeans or the handwarmer pocket of my coat.


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## LawDog (Mar 2, 2007)

JKS9199,
I am not a fan of the electronic safety stuff for firearms either. There are to many variables that can make them go wrong. With the advent of the level two and three safety holsters officer draw response time has been increased,(takes longer to draw), especially in the regional areas that have the four seasons. Law enforcement / security do need these types of rigs. With off duty saftey holsters other problems occur, the belts that are usually worn are to small to secure the holster in place so the holster will move when you try to draw.
For a personal off duty rig I preferr the true cross draw rig. This holster lines the firearm up on the same horizontal plane as the trouser belt. When under a jacket this will proved a smooth natural drawing action that won't get fouled up in a jacket or shirt. The firearms grip is low and tends not to bulge out from under a jacket or shirt.
The modified cross draw places the holster on a 45d plane to the trouser belt so an uplift is required. 
The standard high rise off duty holster that provides a 90d verticle angle to the trousers belt does conceal the fire nicely. The only problem with this unit is when drawing while wearing a jacket, especially a heavy winter jacket.


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## Drac (Mar 2, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> When we need our guns -- we NEED our guns and we can't risk having the gun "locked out" because of technical glitches.


 
Well said..


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## tellner (Mar 2, 2007)

They (the "safety devices") are horseturds and splinters. The only thing they do effectively is raise the price of firearms by several hundred dollars. This certainly keeps them out of the hands of honest poor people and is a great hassle for everyone. Considering that the legislators who propose this sort of scheme almost always have long records virulently opposing private firearms ownership it makes sense.

They are a very very bad idea from the standpoint of safety. 


They give a false sense of security. "I have this special device. The gun is safe," is probably the cause of most firearms accidents.
Guns are simple so that they will work. Add something that takes time, requires a special ring or is made of actual electronic or mechanical parts rather than magic pixie dust and you will make the gun less reliable. Less reliable means less reliable when it's a matter of life or death.
It will be impossible to share a gun with anyone in your family or to sell it without going through expensive, intrusive rekeying.
It will not prevent stolen guns from being used any more than car alarms and battery lockouts ended auto theft.
The stated rationale comes from the old "it will just be taken away and used against you" lie. We have decades of research including studies from the NIJ on the subject. It happens roughly the square root of nothing for regular citizens. It happens more often to police officers because they are doing very dangerous things like approaching and wrestling with violent suspects. The rest of us are just concerned with getting away or making the bad guy run away.


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## KenpoTex (Mar 2, 2007)

tellner said:


> They (the "safety devices") are horseturds and splinters.


Couldn't have said it better myself


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## CityChicken (May 7, 2007)

zDom said:


> Being someone who has _never_ carried but is considering training and applying for a CCW, is carrying a big hunk of metal not a pain in the ***?
> 
> I mean, I don't even like to wear JEWELRY ...
> 
> ...



I've been carrying for about a month now.  Outside the waist, kydex paddle holster.  I'm just now getting used to it.  

If you're considering a Glock, take a look at the Springfield XD.  Much like a Glock, but it also has a grip safety like a 1911 plus the trigger safety and striker guard.  

Chances of going off with all those safeties is very tiny.  But all mechanical devices can fail, so the one in your skull is the best safety.  My favorite quote on this issue:  "Keep your booger hook off the boom switch".   Good luck!  And as with martial arts, PRACTICE!


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## GLShooter (Jul 30, 2007)

One option is the fanny pack route. In some areas of the country (Phoenix comes to mind) wearing am extra jacket or clothing is almost unbearable and in many crowds would make you "stand out".

The use of them is quite common here in Arizona by everyone from young adults to senior citizens and does not wave the "gun" flag like an extra jacket would when it is 120 degrees. 

I read an article recently that recommended using a colored (non-black) fanny pack and even going so far as sewing like a team sports logo or some such on it to play down the possibilities to the average observer that you are packing. 

I've been using an Uncle Mikes pack for about 3 months and am carrying a Star PD. The weight is distributed evenly and you don't even notice the pistol is in there. I have some back issues and quit carrying a wallet in my hip pocket several years ago and this is the best of both worlds for me. Being a retired LEO I can carry anywhere in the US and this allows a pretty unobtrusive alternative.

Greg


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 30, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> A few of these gadgets ("key" rings, fingerprint scanners, etc) to prevent unauthorized users from firing a given gun have been floating around for several years, at least in development or test stages. What I've seen hasn't impressed me, and I don't think many of them are likely to see much use -- unless some legislators decide to mandate them. The simple truth is that any gun that's intended for defensive use has to be carried or stored in a somewhat unsafe manner. Why? Because the safest way to carry or store a gun is unloaded, and physically prevented from loading, like with a gun lock. But -- if you want to defend yourself with the gun, it needs to be loaded with one in the chamber already; only in the world of TV & movies do you have time to rack a slide or load the gun...
> 
> I can virtually guarantee that until there's some major technical advancement, you won't see these measures used on service weapons for law enforcement. When we need our guns -- we NEED our guns and we can't risk having the gun "locked out" because of technical glitches.


 


Yeah, cuz, y'know, once all privately owned guns required electronics to work, the government would NEVER consider an EMP or jamming signal to render them all useless prior to any mischief they might plan, oh heavens, no, perish the thought.


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