# Which Jiu-Jitsu?



## jb604 (Mar 5, 2007)

Hi. 

I am a blackbelt in Karate. I love the workouts. Things are great. However, I feel I really don't know how to protect myself if I ever end up in a close-up fight i.e. in a closed area or if someone charges me and restricts me from my strikes. 

So I've been looking into JiuJitsu. BUT, there is Japanese vs. Brazilian. So before I start, I am trying to find which I should really get into? What is your recommendation?  Or it does not make a difference?

Thanks.
John


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## Andrew Green (Mar 5, 2007)

Well... lots of people say one, lots of people say another.

But I have a more pressing question.

Should I eat a ham sandwich, or a salami sandwich?  Both are just a matter of taste and goals, they do different things and different people are draw too each, leading to a different class environment.


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## jb604 (Mar 5, 2007)

But which gives you more bang for the money? And in a real life sitution, which is best in terms of self-defence. I spoke to a BJJ instructor and he said, and I quote "my white belts can easily defeat JJJ higher belts".  He also said "we practice the techniques with a resisting partner , while in JJJ you simply learn the theory and practice is with a willing partner".

All of this adds to the confusion. I did take a sample class in JJJ and it was somewhat similar to Karate, but I was also introduced to some standing arm-locks and how to protect myself on impact to the ground.

Doing research and hearing people's opinions is always a great way to get started. Right? So what's your opinion?


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## Grenadier (Mar 5, 2007)

Regardless of what style of Jiu Jitsu someone may suggest to you, it's still going to mostly come down to the senior instructor(s) at the school.  From there on out, you should speak with the chief instructor about what the program teaches, and discuss what you are looking for, in earnest.  

If you decide that the school has what you are looking for, then go with it, and enjoy your training, plain and simple.  You're already experienced in the martial arts, so I am confident that you will be able to make an informed decision when the time is right.  

Akayama Ryu?  Danzan Ryu?  Yoshin Ryu?  Any of those systems can have excellent teachers, but it's up to you to check them out for yourself.  When it comes down to it, your eyes are going to be the best judge of what is right for you.

Of course, people who are proficient in Jiu Jitsu here, can certainly help answer more specific questions.  

So...  as Andrew has stated, do you prefer ham, salami, roast beef, or turkey?  They can all make excellent sandwiches, but some brands of roast beef are better than others, along with ham, salami, etc.    It's up to you to see what your taste buds like the best.


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## rmuswell (Mar 5, 2007)

I have been training in Ishin Ryu Jujitsu (Japanese) for about 4 years, not only is this a mixture of all forms of jujitsu and some other techniques as well, but there is a very large element of BJJ as well due to an affiliate sensei being BJJ. Its good fun, however at the moment mainly Europe based with the majority in the UK.
www.ishinryu.com
-->Richard


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## MarkBarlow (Mar 5, 2007)

jb604 said:


> But which gives you more bang for the money? And in a real life sitution, which is best in terms of self-defence. I spoke to a BJJ instructor and he said, and I quote "my white belts can easily defeat JJJ higher belts".  He also said "we practice the techniques with a resisting partner , while in JJJ you simply learn the theory and practice is with a willing partner".



He's right about quite a few JJJ schools and styles but not all of us just focus on theory.   There are still some of us who continue to play hard and fast.


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## zDom (Mar 5, 2007)

jb604 said:


> Hi.
> 
> I am a blackbelt in Karate. I love the workouts. Things are great. However, I feel I really don't know how to protect myself if I ever end up in a close-up fight i.e. in a closed area or if someone charges me and restricts me from my strikes.
> 
> ...



Don't forget about JJJ's Korean cousin, hapkido 

But the advice given above in this thread is all well stated.

Personally, I would make my choice based on who is the best instructor vs. style, but then that is just my opinion.


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## rutherford (Mar 5, 2007)

jb604 said:


> But which gives you more bang for the money? And in a real life sitution, which is best in terms of self-defence.



How many bucks?  How many is your life worth?

You'll find various opinions to answer your questions.  Many people will say BJJ is **** for self defense because you don't want to go to the ground, and you don't want to be so focused on one opponent while his friend kicks you in the head.  You find a lot of others who disagree and will say that you absolutely must train in BJJ to at least understand what kind of ground game you might encounter and that it will be a good compliment for your (hopefully good) stand-up game.



jb604 said:


> I spoke to a BJJ instructor and he said, and I quote "my white belts can easily defeat JJJ higher belts".  He also said "we practice the techniques with a resisting partner , while in JJJ you simply learn the theory and practice is with a willing partner".



The BJJ instructor is highlighting the good advice that you've been given above.  A good instructor and proper coaching is going to take you farther, fastest.  He's also giving you an oversimplification.  

If you're always practicing techniques against a fully resisting partner, you'll never learn anything and suffer training injury after training injury.  What good is it to know a bunch of ways to kick *** when your whole body hurts from the damage you've done to it training and you've never ONCE gotten in a real fight?

Most BJJ isn't full speed, all the time.  It's a continuous cycle of learning the technique, learning to flow with the movement and feel when the technique will work, and then learning the timing to apply the technique at speed.  

If your JJJ instructor teaches in that manner, then he's probably a damn good choice as well.


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## meta_aesthete (Mar 5, 2007)

I think BJJ and JJJ are both great, off the bat. 

But here's my thing about the instructor's blanket statement. "My white belts can defeat JJJ higher belts."

Yes. In a ring. One on one. Hand to hand. If the JJJ students haven't studied sprawling and other ways to defeat BJJ techniques. 

But what's the chances that you're going to be assaulted by a JJJ student in a self-defense scenario? It's more likely going to be someone who doesn't know martial arts, but knows about beating heads in. Statistically speaking, they're likely to have a weapon. Did the BJJ instructor talk about how his students would fare against that?

So what if his students can take a JJJ/judo/whatever student to the mat? If you're thinking self-defense, JJJ students aren't your most prevalent threat. 

So which art is better for your purposes? I don't know. I think you should ask any instructor you talk to about their self-defense philosophies -- not their competition or historical interest philosophies, but their self-defense philosophies. 

Then make your decision based on what you find and who you trust. I'm personally suspicious of instructors who make statements like that, but he could just be giving a sales pitch and actually be a solid instructor. So just go to both (or other grappling arts you find) and ask specific questions about your specific interests. And then go with your gut.


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## jb604 (Mar 6, 2007)

Thanks.

Yes, the BJJ instructor, a very good and qualified instructor, was giving a sales pitch so I don't blame him. He is a young guy, an engineer by profession, and looked like a lean mean machine.

I have found two clubs in my area. BJJ is about 30 mins away. The JJJ club is about 5 min away. (distance does matter for me)

The JJJ instructor is a big guy, but does not look very fit. He's got a huge belly. However, I watched him, and he knows his stuff really well.

The BJJ club is a much bigger club with bunch of young guns. The JJJ club is much much smaller club and the people were mainly older, and friendly.

So I am leaning towards JJJ. I hope I am not making a mistake. I just don't want to waste time, hence my research in this forum.

J.


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## zDom (Mar 6, 2007)

If you haven't done so already, watch a couple of classes from each school.


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## matt.m (Mar 6, 2007)

You know I have always oversimplified the differences between the two.

JJJ: More or less the forerunner of Hapkido and Aikido
BJJ: Brazilian Judo.

Both are indeed awesome and incredible TMA's.  However, you should never go into a school and expect to be Billy big man on the block and have that intention.  Really, the question of "What is the best" really comes down to what is the best for you and your goals.

Now before I get flamed on my oversimplification, here is my reasoning.  Takeda taught Choi and Ueshiba.  

The founders of hapkido and aikido respectfully.  They were friends, it has been documented that Ueshiba had been present at Choi's demo(s) and acknowledged him fondly.

As far as the BJJ is concerned, after reading the history of BJJ from the Gracie 3 volume encyclopedia it has been stated that the person who taught Helio was the student of the Judo National Champ.  The judo national champ had been taught directly from Kano himself.


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## matt.m (Mar 6, 2007)

jb604 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Yes, the BJJ instructor, a very good and qualified instructor, was giving a sales pitch so I don't blame him. He is a young guy, an engineer by profession, and looked like a lean mean machine.
> 
> ...


 

Well, I am learning outstanding Tae Kwon Do....I have a few different disabilities, I am making it work.  So it would not make any sense for me to go to a TKD gym that was olympic sparring focused considering I wear two leg braces.


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## Burnerbob (May 6, 2007)

Excuse me if I sound ignorant, but did not the Sr.(BJJ) Gracie learn from the Japanese.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 6, 2007)

jb604 said:


> Hi.
> 
> I am a blackbelt in Karate. I love the workouts. Things are great. However, I feel I really don't know how to protect myself if I ever end up in a close-up fight i.e. in a closed area or if someone charges me and restricts me from my strikes.
> 
> ...


 
It sounds like you found a couple of schools and checked them out.  Give one a try and hopefully it will be for you.  Good luck!


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## Darth F.Takeda (May 6, 2007)

Starting on our knees, and with no faul techniques  allowed, I have been beat  by most  BJJ  guys I have  rolled  with.That is their game, grappling on the ground.
Starting on our feet, different story all togehter.  Their throws (lacking)  and takedowns ( decent) were enough to make them good  matches, but I did  ge the better  of them  most of the time.

Working against guns, knives and clubs ( training ones, we aint that weird)  the  BJJ guys  I have trained with are really lacking, one is now our student, as he realized he spent the last 2 years learning how to win grappling tournaments, but our stuff fit him better as a Federal LEO.

 Now it does depend on the Dojo and Sensei though, I know ther are BJJ instructors who teach with self defense in a more promanint role, like my freind Steve Maxwell, just as ther are JJJ Dojos that are teaching fantasy fighting.

 This is not a slam on BJJ, just my experiences with it  and my outlook on JJJ  as a 2nd Dan in it. I personally crosstrain  with  BJJ guys as much as I can, Grappling  can  happen, sometimes you want to take a guy to the ground and control him, especially if your not out to  maim or kill him, grappling is great for the drunk   buddy, who  decided  to try you.
  It also can be forced on you, and not being able to handle yourself down  there can be very bad indeed.

  As another pointed  out, your attacker on the street   probably wont be  another dedicated  martial artist, but he might be a very successful street fighter, and armed, that's why I choose   for  my primary art, one that teaches Throws, Neck Breaks and chokes, joint destructions and controols, takedowns,  sweeps, moving  people into  objects and walls, very  hard, defenses against  guns,knives, clubs, garrotes and  other weapons, along with  many of the same grappling techniques found in  BJJ and  a few that are not.
 I  do like BJJ though, I just feel it's a component art, like Boxing, whereas Jujutsu is a complete art, very comprehensive.
  Nothing is the best, just best for the individual, and I love Jujutsu,but I also study Pekiti Tarsia, Silat and I shoot  a bit.


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## arnisador (May 6, 2007)

Burnerbob said:


> Excuse me if I sound ignorant, but did not the Sr.(BJJ) Gracie learn from the Japanese.



A Judo instructor, yes.


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## Renshi (May 12, 2007)

> Starting on our knees, and with no faul techniques allowed, I have been beat by most BJJ guys I have rolled with.That is their game, grappling on the ground.
> Starting on our feet, different story all togehter. Their throws (lacking) and takedowns ( decent) were enough to make them good matches, but I did ge the better of them most of the time.


 
This has been my experience also, but from the inverse perspective.  I train in BJJ.  Our ne-waza is usually pretty tight and clean, very technical.  Judoka and japanese jujitsuka are usually able to beat me to the take down.  Even high school wrestlers give me a tough time from standing.

The point is to find what suits you best.  What are you looking for?  Sport? Martial Art? Self defense?
What I mean by these are:
Sport--defines itself.
Martial art -- has a mixture of aesthetic value and self defense application
Self Defense -- fighting science, training to survive a fight


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## Ybot (May 20, 2007)

May I suggest Judo?  Really if your looking for bang for the buck Judo is top notch.  Typically cheaper (by a long shot) than BJJ, and also give you penty of practice time against "live" opponents.


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## Freestyler777 (May 21, 2007)

I totally agree with Ybot.  Judo is excellent, if you have a teacher who emphasizes newaza(matwork) as much as tachiwaza(standup).  I think you would also need aikido to learn standing grappling defences, strategies on multiple opponents, and weapon disarms.

BJJ is also excellent if taught properly.  You should do investigation into the teacher and his methods.  Does he teach SD and rolling equally, or is it just a competition team?  

But remember, MA is a life-long pursuit, you don't become superman overnight.

And personally, for whatever it is worth, being a strong, confident looking athlete is better protection than doing what-if scenarios and cooperative partner practice.  I don't mean to offend anyone, but there is such a thing as Murphy's Law, anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.  That is why it is better to look strong and avoid conflicts to begin with.  And since the guy who started this thread has experience in karate, i think he has more than a good handle on traditional self-defense, and just needs to compliment what he already knows with matwork/BJJ.

I'm just trying to help as best as i can.


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## Darth F.Takeda (May 22, 2007)

While it's true that looking like a hard target can deter people from  messing with you, your own appreciation for Murphy might point out that someone might call you on it, looking hard is no substitute for being hard.

 I like that I am way stronger than my size would have you think.


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## Freestyler777 (May 23, 2007)

I am also stronger than I appear, and many are surprised by my ability in newaza.  

All I am saying is what Bruce Lee was talking about in the 60's, 'aliveness' of sport fighting, such as judo or BJJ is better than cooperative partner practice.  

That being said, Aikido, Aiki-ju-jutsu, and JJJ are all excellent in dealing with things that don't happen in a one-on-one fair fight. 

All I was saying is, criminals are predators and largely cowards, and would rather prey on someone who looks small and old, rather than a young athletic person.

I didn't mean any offense.


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## Darth F.Takeda (May 23, 2007)

Awe  No offense taken at all, I agree with part of your point, I was just adding to it with the caveat.

 It's a mis preception though that JJJ has no aliveness training, we randori all the time, where do you think Judo really got it from?
 Kano put together a great system and revolutionized alot, but he did not inventmost of the techniques and practices of Judo, he made them a system.

 That said, we have a bunch of MMA gear and a FIST suit, we utilize often.


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## Callandor (May 23, 2007)

To answer your question, it makes no difference for me whether it's BJJ or JJJ. I don't know which among them is better but I do know that any of them is adequate for someone who needs to defend themselves in close quarters. And that, for me, is what matters. Also, please consider Judo and Aikido. Any of the four are more than adequate if you properly train in them.

In making your choice, convenience may be a more important concern. If one of the four styles has a school near your place, you might be able to train more in it which will make you more skillful with it.

Another is the emphasis/philosophy of the school and instructor. It is amazing how one art like judo could be taught in three different ways depending on the school or instructor: On one school it may be very sport oriented where there are lots of randori and the atmosphere is not unlike that of a basketball gym; On another school, it may be very rigid and formal and almost like a JJJ school with lots of partner exercise where one attacks with a strike and the other defends; and finally, it may look very much like BJJ in another school where matwork rules.


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## Freestyler777 (May 24, 2007)

You know, Darth Takeda, I thought about one of your earlier posts on this thread last night and it occured to me- I am much like you.  

If I start standing up, I always get top mount.  But if I start on the knees, I always end up on bottom.

I guess that is why I have success in Judo, but when i try to cross train in BJJ I get demolished.  Same body of knowledge, different approach.

I don't want to sound like a sore loser, but EVERY altercation begins standing up, starting on the knees is reduction to the absurd in my opinion.  What do i mean by that?  If every fight goes to the ground, let's just play on the ground.  That is reduction to the absurd, kind of like boxing is only focused on one, important technique: punching with the closed fist.  

Every fight starts standing up.  Randori is more important than newaza.

So in many ways, I see what you are saying.  Maybe JJJ is better for this karate black belt who started the thread.


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