# Toes pointing inward



## callMeHawkEye (Dec 28, 2017)

Hello folks. I just had an intro lesson today on wing chun and they had me do the I guess base stance. I forgot what it's called lol. Why is the stance so pigeon toed with feet pointing inwards?  I feel my Kua (Chinese for inner thigh and hips/dantoen area) kinda close when the feet turn inwards like that. 
And I am trying to turn my pelvis bit to keep the back straight and aligned. How are you supposed to generate the power from dantoen and such when you close the Kua like that?

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## geezer (Dec 28, 2017)

Some WC branches emphasize the internal rotation of the legs more than others. I prefer a milder internal rotation, partly because I'm quite duck-footed so rotating my toes inwards means my knees are extremely torqued inwards! Regardless, if this was your first lesson, work on getting the structure right. Power should not even be a concern at this point. Good luck in your training! 

BTW what branch or lineage of Wing Chun are you training?


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## JR 137 (Dec 28, 2017)

Is this the stance you’re referring to?



 
I believe it’s used in many CMA styles as well as karate.  Karate calls it Sanchin stance, named after the kata Sanchin.  Some styles of karate do quite a bit of kihon (basics) from the stance.  I’d imagine CMAs do as well.  

It’s a very rooted stance.  People can definitely generate quite a bit of power from it.  It takes time though.  As Geezer said, don’t worry about generating power yet, work on getting comfortable in the stance.  It’s an awkward stance at first, but if your teacher is teaching you right, it should grow on you.


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## KPM (Dec 29, 2017)

callMeHawkEye said:


> Hello folks. I just had an intro lesson today on wing chun and they had me do the I guess base stance. I forgot what it's called lol. Why is the stance so pigeon toed with feet pointing inwards?  I feel my Kua (Chinese for inner thigh and hips/dantoen area) kinda close when the feet turn inwards like that.
> And I am trying to turn my pelvis bit to keep the back straight and aligned. How are you supposed to generate the power from dantoen and such when you close the Kua like that?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk



The fact that you know what the "Kua" actually is and that you are wondering how to generate power from a "closed Kua" tells me that you likely have studied something prior to Wing Chun!  So I will speak in a way I  wouldn't normally to a beginner.

Tilting the pelvis forward to flatten the lower back and the holding that position generates a "locked Kua."   In my Wing Chun we keep a "floating Kua" to help transmit momentum up the spine in a "wave-like" fashion.  We think of the Kua like the handle of a whip, the spine like the body of a whip, and the fist like the "popper" at the end of the whip.  So the Kua has to be able to move.  Turning the feet/knees in produces a "closed Kua" but not a "locked Kua."  This helps to keep the overall structure compact and helps keep the force you generate focused.  Sometimes it is exaggerated at the beginning or when training to help develop the muscle strength and muscle memory to be able to do it naturally.  In application it should still be there, just not as extreme.  The part that kills good power generation from the Kua is that tilt of the pelvis to flatten the lower back.  But it is a common feature of some Wing Chun lineages.


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## MI_martialist (Dec 29, 2017)

How about a picture?


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## DanT (Dec 29, 2017)

The stance is called "Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma" or simply "Kim Yeung Ma". The translation is "Character Two Goat Clamping Stance, or the shortened version, "Goat Clamping Stance".

The feet should NOT be turned in more than 15 degrees. Constant turning in of the feet more than 15 degrees puts a tremendous amount of strain on the Knees.

The feet are SLIGHTLY turned in to help you find your centre of gravity, and to help you root your stance. The use of this stance in combat is minimal. However, the principals of the stance are applied to combat (maintaining balance, keeping your back straight, even distribution of weight between your legs, etc.)


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 29, 2017)

callMeHawkEye said:


> feet pointing inwards ...











This stance has at least 3 weakness. Your opponent can

- sweep your exposed heel.
- apply low side kick behind your knee,
- double legs on you since both of your legs are close to each other.







You should use this stance for offense (build leg bridge) instead of for defense.

From general MA point of view, you can use "foot inward stance" to bite your shin bone on the inside of your opponent's leg. When you press your knee down, you can bend your opponent's knee side way and collapse his structure. The closer that your lower leg can be bent to your foot, the more pressure that you can apply on your opponent's leg.

It's also the initial step for you to train "foot sweep".


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## wckf92 (Dec 29, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> How about a picture?



who are you asking?


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## MI_martialist (Dec 29, 2017)

Whomever may have pictures of proper execution of the base.



wckf92 said:


> who are you asking?


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## Danny T (Dec 30, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This stance has at least 3 weakness. Your opponent can
> 
> - sweep your exposed heel.
> - apply low side kick behind your knee,
> ...


Hmm...per the picture: "Squeeze thighs together"
For us; not so much. For most the knees follow the toes when pointed inward, straight, or outward. When in the YJKYM stance proper, simply bending the knees will bring the thighs toward each other naturally. No need to Squeeze them which will put a side load on the knees distorting the natural bending structure of the knee. 

For us this stance is for fundamental training and is transitioned through and not something we actually fight in. Particular aspects of the structure are utilized when warranted not a stance to attempt to fight in.

Agree with the "...can use "foot inward stance" to bite your shin bone on the inside of your opponent's leg. When you press your knee down, you can bend your opponent's knee side way and collapse his structure. The closer that your lower leg can be bent to your foot, the more pressure that you can apply on your opponent's leg."
Other than the pressing the knee down. With the foot turned inward and shin bone on the leg simply pressing the knee forward will collapse his structure allowing a foot sweep or takedown.


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## geezer (Dec 30, 2017)

Alpine Wing Chun:
http://www.skimybest.com/skiCSW3.jpg

Wing Chun on the farm:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/53KoRxxr1jc/maxresdefault.jpg

Wing Chun at the prom:
https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1KcT0...ermaid-Prom-Dresses-Long-Slim-Fit-Elegant.jpg


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## geezer (Dec 30, 2017)

I left out Wing Chun waiting in line for the bathroom: 
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c6/98/f6/c698f6ad170f702eef0d9dfbd8aec463.jpg


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## callMeHawkEye (Dec 30, 2017)

geezer said:


> Some WC branches emphasize the internal rotation of the legs more than others. I prefer a milder internal rotation, partly because I'm quite duck-footed so rotating my toes inwards means my knees are extremely torqued inwards! Regardless, if this was your first lesson, work on getting the structure right. Power should not even be a concern at this point. Good luck in your training!
> 
> BTW what branch or lineage of Wing Chun are you training?


Hi. The teacher was from the cheung bo and yuen Kay san lineage. 
And the stance I was shown the first class was called Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma


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## geezer (Dec 30, 2017)

callMeHawkEye said:


> Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma



OK, that roughly translates to "Character 2 Goat riding stance". The character for 2 in Chinese (yee gee) is a short line over a long line:



Now imagine the short line connecting your toes, and the long line connecting your heels making your stance "pigeon-toed", and additionally, the short line linking your knees and the longer line connecting your feet giveing you that "knock-kneed" position and you have the general idea.

Now as far as the "goat riding" or "goat clamping stance" part (kim yeung ma) ...well check the link of the guy sheering a sheep labeled Wing Chun on the farm in my post above. Seriously. _That's_ where the name comes from!  ...And, IMO that's only because the Southern Chinese of a couple centuries back didn't ski.


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## callMeHawkEye (Dec 31, 2017)

KPM said:


> The fact that you know what the "Kua" actually is and that you are wondering how to generate power from a "closed Kua" tells me that you likely have studied something prior to Wing Chun!  So I will speak in a way I  wouldn't normally to a beginner.
> 
> Tilting the pelvis forward to flatten the lower back and the holding that position generates a "locked Kua."   In my Wing Chun we keep a "floating Kua" to help transmit momentum up the spine in a "wave-like" fashion.  We think of the Kua like the handle of a whip, the spine like the body of a whip, and the fist like the "popper" at the end of the whip.  So the Kua has to be able to move.  Turning the feet/knees in produces a "closed Kua" but not a "locked Kua."  This helps to keep the overall structure compact and helps keep the force you generate focused.  Sometimes it is exaggerated at the beginning or when training to help develop the muscle strength and muscle memory to be able to do it naturally.  In application it should still be there, just not as extreme.  The part that kills good power generation from the Kua is that tilt of the pelvis to flatten the lower back.  But it is a common feature of some Wing Chun lineages.


Hi kpm. Thank you for the info. I kind of come from a taiji background. 
What do you mean by "floating Kua"?  Do you have any like books lectures or articles etc more on the matter?  
In taiji a core part of ones power is from using ones Kua. I do not quite understand the distinction between floating and locked Kua.  I do understand like how one may have power from transitioning between open and closed Kua. 
Is it more along the lines similar to a hip thrust?

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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This stance has at least 3 weakness. Your opponent can
> 
> - sweep your exposed heel.
> - apply low side kick behind your knee,
> ...


Based on KPM's comment that the feet shouldn't be more than 15 degrees in, the first two weaknesses you list seem overemphasized in the first picture.

WC folks, is there a consensus on how far in the feet would be? And how about those outside WC who use a similar stance?


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2017)

callMeHawkEye said:


> Hi kpm. Thank you for the info. I kind of come from a taiji background.
> What do you mean by "floating Kua"?  Do you have any like books lectures or articles etc more on the matter?
> In taiji a core part of ones power is from using ones Kua. I do not quite understand the distinction between floating and locked Kua.  I do understand like how one may have power from transitioning between open and closed Kua.
> Is it more along the lines similar to a hip thrust?
> ...


If I understand correctly, a "locked Kua" means the pelvis is locked into place - little/no movement at the hips/lower back. When I  flatten the lower back like he mentioned, I can feel the pelvis lock at the hip joints.


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## wckf92 (Dec 31, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Based on KPM's comment that the feet shouldn't be more than 15 degrees in, the first two weaknesses you list seem overemphasized in the first picture.
> 
> WC folks, is there a consensus on how far in the feet would be? And how about those outside WC who use a similar stance?



My feet and knees are no where close to the first picture in KFW's post. If that is how most WC people do their YJKYM; then I guess mine is an anomoly hahaha. My feet are more straight, and my lower half looks and feels more natural. No undue stress on the knees, and I definitely do NOT squeeze the thighs inward. That just seems weird.


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## KPM (Dec 31, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> My feet and knees are no where close to the first picture in KFW's post. If that is how most WC people do their YJKYM; then I guess mine is an anomoly hahaha. My feet are more straight, and my lower half looks and feels more natural. No undue stress on the knees, and I definitely do NOT squeeze the thighs inward. That just seems weird.



Most of that is for training purposes only.   And if Hawkeye is now part of a Yuen Kay Shan lineage, they do pull the knees and toes in at an extreme compared to most everyone else I have seen.   I've seen people in that lineage talk about the spacing and "inward squeeze" being such that it is like you are holding a tennis ball or baseball between your knees!   But then when they move in free-flow they look like most everyone else.


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## KPM (Dec 31, 2017)

callMeHawkEye said:


> Hi kpm. Thank you for the info. I kind of come from a taiji background.
> What do you mean by "floating Kua"?  Do you have any like books lectures or articles etc more on the matter?
> In taiji a core part of ones power is from using ones Kua. I do not quite understand the distinction between floating and locked Kua.  I do understand like how one may have power from transitioning between open and closed Kua.
> Is it more along the lines similar to a hip thrust?
> ...



A "floating Kua" means that it is relaxed and flexible.  You can "tuck under" by tilting the pelvis when necessary, but it isn't held in this position constantly.  That is what I mean by "locked."  You want to avoid both extremes....having your butt sticking out, and flattening your lower  back so much that you are practically leaning backwards.  You want to feel like you are in a balanced and relaxed position.  Using the Kua to generate power is like "hitting with the hips."  I can lay my palm on my dummy and literally "rock" the dummy without lifting my hand by using my hips alone.   Think of opening and closing the Kua as using the Kua in the horizontal plane.  What I'm talking about is using the Kua in the vertical plane.  Hope that makes sense!


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## Danny T (Dec 31, 2017)

DanT said:


> The feet should NOT be turned in more than 15 degrees. Constant turning in of the feet more than 15 degrees puts a tremendous amount of strain on the Knees.
> 
> The feet are SLIGHTLY turned in to help you find your centre of gravity, and to help you root your stance. The use of this stance in combat is minimal. However, the principals of the stance are applied to combat (maintaining balance, keeping your back straight, even distribution of weight between your legs, etc.)





wckf92 said:


> My feet and knees are no where close to the first picture in KFW's post. If that is how most WC people do their YJKYM; then I guess mine is an anomoly hahaha. My feet are more straight, and my lower half looks and feels more natural. No undue stress on the knees, and I definitely do NOT squeeze the thighs inward. That just seems weird.



Yeah I agree with most of this. 
As to 15 degrees...??? I don't know and don't believe it is of much importance as to what the degrees are. My instructors never used a protractor to measure. We tend to pivot the feet inward to the point of having outer edge of the foot pointing straight ahead. The  inner edge then projects the sides of a triangle. The knees are bent to the point the distance between them are approx. 2 fists apart. 
I am assuming those that use the more intense pigeon toed stance with the knees squeezed in as KPM describes are doing so more as an 'over training' in the beginning stages and they use a positioning much closer to natural in the more advanced stages.


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## wckf92 (Dec 31, 2017)

Danny T said:


> My instructors never used a protractor to measure.



hahaha. Mine didn't either. Good point Danny T!



Danny T said:


> We tend to pivot the feet inward to the point of having outer edge of the foot pointing straight ahead. The  inner edge then projects the sides of a triangle.



Yep. Exactly.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> the first two weaknesses you list seem overemphasized in the first picture.


When your opponent sweeps your leg, you can either lift up your leg to let the sweeping leg to pass under your leg, or turn your foot outward and use your shin bone to deal with it. If you have already turn your toes inward, you will need to turn your toes extra angle. Sometime you don't have that much time. This is why most of the MA stance have leading foot pointing forward. This way whether you want to move inward to bite on your opponent's leg (for offense), or move outward to deal with your opponent's foot sweep (for defense), you can respond quickly.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When your opponent sweeps your leg, you can either lift up your leg to let the sweeping leg to pass under your leg, or turn your foot outward and use your shin bone to deal with it. If you have already turn your toes inward, you will need to turn your toes extra angle. Sometime you don't have that much time. This is why most of the MA stance have leading foot pointing forward. This way whether you want to move inward to bite on your opponent's leg (for offense), or move outward to deal with your opponent's foot sweep (for defense), you can respond quickly.


By the description Danny just gave, their toes are pointed about the same angle (outside of the foot straight) as most NGA practitioners' front foot in a hanmi stance. That small distance doesn't really change timing.


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## Vajramusti (Jan 2, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Is this the stance you’re referring to?
> View attachment 21169
> I believe it’s used in many CMA styles as well as karate.  Karate calls it Sanchin stance, named after the kata Sanchin.  Some styles of karate do quite a bit of kihon (basics) from the stance.  I’d imagine CMAs do as well.
> 
> It’s a very rooted stance.  People can definitely generate quite a bit of power from it.  It takes time though.  As Geezer said, don’t worry about generating power yet, work on getting comfortable in the stance.  It’s an awkward stance at first, but if your teacher is teaching you right, it should grow on you.





KPM said:


> A "floating Kua" means that it is relaxed and flexible.  You can "tuck under" by tilting the pelvis when necessary, but it isn't held in this position constantly.  That is what I mean by "locked."  You want to avoid both extremes....having your butt sticking out, and flattening your lower  back so much that you are practically leaning backwards.  You want to feel like you are in a balanced and relaxed position.  Using the Kua to generate power is like "hitting with the hips."  I can lay my palm on my dummy and literally "rock" the dummy without lifting my hand by using my hips alone.   Think of opening and closing the Kua as using the Kua in the horizontal plane.  What I'm talking about is using the Kua in the vertical plane.  Hope that makes sense!


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## Vajramusti (Jan 2, 2018)

Sanchin?Floating Kuas? Sic?


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## JR 137 (Jan 2, 2018)

Vajramusti said:


> Sanchin?Floating Kuas? Sic?


Sanchin kata and “testing” in uechi ryu Karate.  Other karate styles do the kata differently, such as closed hands, turns vs straight forward and backward, etc.  While there are those differences, the principles of the kata and the stance itself are pretty consistent in most schools that do Sanchin.


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## KPM (Jan 2, 2018)

Vajramusti said:


> Sanchin?Floating Kuas? Sic?



Don't know about Sanchin.  But the idea of a "floating Kua" is not taught in HKM lineage.  So I wouldn't expect you to know anything about it.


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## geezer (Jan 2, 2018)

KPM said:


> Don't know about Sanchin.  But the idea of a *"floating Kua" *is not taught in HKM lineage.  So I wouldn't expect you to know anything about it.



Those terms aren't used in my lineage either, and I don't think I've heard them used in Yip Man WC in general. 

On the other hand, as we advance in my lineage, we do seek to develop "springy energy" or elasticity, which eventually extends from the arms, through the core, to the stance and steps. And the other way around as well. An elastic, "springy" core that can flex and yield then spring back to release power... it's a very simple idea that doesn't sound unlike the "floating kua" as I've heard it explained by you and others such as Alan Orr on his videos.


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## cwk (Jan 3, 2018)

I was never taught to turn the toes right in or squeeze the knees. Like what Danny T said, we turn them just enough so that the outside of the foot is pointing straight forward. I sink and open the kua and align my hip, knee,ankle and foot in a natural way. No tilting of the pelvis, I use relaxation and correct breathing to open and relax the lower back. I don’t start from bending at the knees either (which I see on YouTube often). Instead I relax and release tension throughout my body and let my knees move naturally along with everything else.


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## Bino TWT (Jan 12, 2018)




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## KabutoKouji (Jan 17, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Is this the stance you’re referring to?
> View attachment 21169
> I believe it’s used in many CMA styles as well as karate.  Karate calls it Sanchin stance, named after the kata Sanchin.



It is interesting that Karate calls it the Sanchin stance, as it is the basic stance in the White Crane we practice. We are told the qua is closed in order to guard the groin easily, but also that in contrary to what the OP said, locking the qua like that  enables the rotation of the torse _easier_ than with it open. 

I think it's a bit hard to get used to, but certainly when I conciously locked like that when we were doing fa jin training, it did seem to enable me to rotate/whip faster a bit, though I did feel (but this is probably because I'm not 'relaxed' in it/used to it yet) that I found it harder to bring the sine wave all the way up from my feet when it was locked.


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## KabutoKouji (Jan 18, 2018)

Also in White Crane we would never tilt the torso quite as far back, I believe we would go back a stance.


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## JR 137 (Jan 18, 2018)

KabutoKouji said:


> It is interesting that Karate calls it the Sanchin stance, as it is the basic stance in the White Crane we practice. We are told the qua is closed in order to guard the groin easily, but also that in contrary to what the OP said, locking the qua like that  enables the rotation of the torse _easier_ than with it open.
> 
> I think it's a bit hard to get used to, but certainly when I conciously locked like that when we were doing fa jin training, it did seem to enable me to rotate/whip faster a bit, though I did feel (but this is probably because I'm not 'relaxed' in it/used to it yet) that I found it harder to bring the sine wave all the way up from my feet when it was locked.


Most of Okinawan karate comes from CMA, and White Crane is allegedly a big part of it.  Sanchin kata came from China.  Here’s an interesting video of the variations of Sanchin, Chinese and Okinawan, side by side...






Goju Ryu’s Tensho kata makes extensive use of the Sanchin stance as well.  Goju’s founder (Chojun Miyagi) allegedly developed the kata from what he learned in White Crane in China (Fujian White Crane?).


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## drop bear (Jan 18, 2018)

I think I will stick to toes in line with the knee.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 18, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I think I will stick to toes in line with the knee.


Agree! The best fighting stance is a stance that you can spring from it. The direction of your spring is the direction that your toes is pointing to. This is why your leading leg toes should always point toward your opponent.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 18, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I think I will stick to toes in line with the knee.


My toes don't line up with my knee. My big toes used to, but even they don't now.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 18, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! The best fighting stance is a stance that you can spring from it. The direction of your spring is the direction that your toes is pointing to. This is why your leading leg toes should always point toward your opponent.


I agree, except that I'd say it's the knees that point the direction for some folks.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 18, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> My toes don't line up with my knee. My big toes used to, but even they don't now.


What kind of stance are you using? I can't find a stance that knee and toes are pointing toward different directions.


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## KabutoKouji (Jan 18, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Most of Okinawan karate comes from CMA, and White Crane is allegedly a big part of it.  Sanchin kata came from China.  Here’s an interesting video of the variations of Sanchin, Chinese and Okinawan, side by side...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



yeah I love that video - the bits which are recognisable from the White Crane form we do (our's is 'Ancestral' or 'Shaking' Crane I think (not Fujian) but it still seems very similar) are mainly thes two - there is a sorta chamber movement before the slightly uppercutty punch which I do not really see in any of the Sanchins though. So the pattern mainly consists of this:







followed by this (though ours is more of a strike to the lower ribs area):






in a four directional (cross shaped) pattern.

There is much more 'triangle body' though (as in twisting the torso), and obviousy it moves a lot faster and is more emm 'flowy'. There is supposed to be a lot of 'turtle back' like the Okinawan guy whose topless, but I think it is only supposed to be during 'chamber' positions, as the fa jin extends the chest is supposed to 'open'.

Tensho does seem very Crane too - this bit in particular is in our pattern:






however, our bottom hand would be facing inward. This is also used when training in one of our stances which is kicked from. I'm not sure but I think I have seen a pattern with the same position and with the hands the same way as us in what I think was an Okinawan pattern that 'Karate By' Jesse Enkamp had in one of his videos.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 18, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What kind of stance are you using? I can't find a stance that knee and toes are pointing toward different directions.


It's not about stance. My toes don't line up with my knees. If my toes point forward, my knees are turned slightly inward.


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## KabutoKouji (Jan 19, 2018)

I'm unable to edit my last post so I'll have to post here - the movement before the first move I have a picture of is an inward forearm block type movement, but this is done in turtle back and is essentially the chamber/martial hand for the uppercutty punch straight after, it would be I suppose similarto the first 'block' of 'Brush Knee' in TaiJiJuan.


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## KPM (Jan 19, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What kind of stance are you using? I can't find a stance that knee and toes are pointing toward different directions.



I've seen some Wing Chun people that took the idea of "inward pressure" at the knees a bit to far to the point that their knees point further inward than their feet.  So the knee and the toes were not on the same line or pointing in the same direction.  This is hard on the knees!


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## _Simon_ (Jan 19, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Most of Okinawan karate comes from CMA, and White Crane is allegedly a big part of it.  Sanchin kata came from China.  Here’s an interesting video of the variations of Sanchin, Chinese and Okinawan, side by side...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah that is so cool to see 

I love love love Sanchin kata, but it's good to see that some styles don't seem to do it with as much tension. In Kyokushin we did it with absolute full 100% tension in every part of the body, and hard ibuki breathing too (closed throat, forceful loud breathing). Not to hijack the thread though, I'll have to research all the different ways of doing Sanchin (with full, medium, little tension, softer/harder breathing) and moreso look up the benefits for each..



drop bear said:


> I think I will stick to toes in line with the knee.





gpseymour said:


> My toes don't line up with my knee. My big toes used to, but even they don't now.





gpseymour said:


> It's not about stance. My toes don't line up with my knees. If my toes point forward, my knees are turned slightly inward.



Yeah I was gonna ask about that, I'm the same gp. If my knees are pointing forward, my toes/feet naturally point outwards at a fair angle (duck style). I wonder what us folk do in this case? [emoji14] And whether it's biomechanically more challenging for us? Is it best to keep our feet/knees in the way they naturally fall, or try to force toes to face the knees I wonder...

I would think keep them how they naturally are.. that way it wouldn't be forcing the body to do things that aren't natural to it.. because this then affects all other stances, nekoashi dachi (cat stance) and kokutsu dachi (back leaning stance) are a little different then with different foot/knee angles..


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## KabutoKouji (Jan 19, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Ah that is so cool to see
> 
> I love love love Sanchin kata, but it's good to see that some styles don't seem to do it with as much tension.



in one of Jesse's videos he said an old Okinawan Master was unable to eat curry anymore because tense Sanchins had given him chronic heamarrhoids :s


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## _Simon_ (Jan 19, 2018)

KabutoKouji said:


> in one of Jesse's videos he said an old Okinawan Master was unable to eat curry anymore because tense Sanchins had given him chronic heamarrhoids :s


Haha yeah I remember that video actually, big fan of Sensei Jesse, yeah I can't imagine it would be good for you long term that amount of tension... And I'd know, I've currently got severe physical issues because of overtension! I've played around with Sanchin before and done everything much softer and it was nice. Although perhaps Tensho kata was developed as a bit of a counter to the tension of Sanchin? Thought I read that somewhere..


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 19, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah I was gonna ask about that, I'm the same gp. If my knees are pointing forward, my toes/feet naturally point outwards at a fair angle (duck style). I wonder what us folk do in this case?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My view is that it should be driven by the mechanics needed. If the position is for balance, often the foot position is more important, unless the feet are next to each other. In any other stance, there's a bit of sacrifice of stability to the inside of one foot. Pivoting the big toe back toward center (for folks like us) off-sets that sacrifice. When the consideration is aim (as with a kick), the knee is more important. I've taken time to consider which matters in each situation where what I was taught probably assumed knees and toes pointed the same way (as with stances where my instructor would say, "The feet should be pointed forward, so the knees stay on target."). In most cases, a quick bit of experimentation will either identify which is important, or show that it makes little difference which, so long as I don't go beyond the two bounds (knee dominant, to toes dominant). Doing this has caused me to use different directions.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 19, 2018)

KPM said:


> I've seen some Wing Chun people that took the idea of "inward pressure" at the knees a bit to far to the point that their knees point further inward than their feet.  So the knee and the toes were not on the same line or pointing in the same direction.  This is hard on the knees!


I wonder if some of those folks just have that natural duck-footedness that I (and apparently Simon) have. If I stand slightly toes-in, my knees are significantly turned in. To give you an example, when I learned our basic punch, it was done from a "straight stance". the toes are pointed directly to the front, feet side-by-side. The idea is that the knees will then be pointed forward - you're supposed to be able to bend your knees, and they point directly forward (parallel to each other). When I do that, my knees converge, and will actually touch if I squat.

And yes, it is hard on the knees. I suspect some of my knee problems are simply due to the natural mis-alignment of my feet.


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## KabutoKouji (Jan 19, 2018)

yes I like Jesse a lot - i found him through the McCarthy version of the Bubishi, and particularly enjoyed his Okinawa series of videos. He has the right attitude to TMA imo, and it is interesting that his brother competes in MMA but Jesse decided to continue his parent's dojo.


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## KabutoKouji (Jan 19, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> And I'd know, I've currently got severe physical issues because of overtension! I've played around with Sanchin before and done everything much softer and it was nice



yeah I'm pretty tense and over the top when I perform moves or patterns, because I came from ITF TKD (and our instructor really constantly wanted 'maximum power' in every move), I still find it very hard to 'flow' enough during Lien Bu Quan etc.


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## JR 137 (Jan 19, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Ah that is so cool to see
> 
> I love love love Sanchin kata, but it's good to see that some styles don't seem to do it with as much tension. In Kyokushin we did it with absolute full 100% tension in every part of the body, and hard ibuki breathing too (closed throat, forceful loud breathing). Not to hijack the thread though, I'll have to research all the different ways of doing Sanchin (with full, medium, little tension, softer/harder breathing) and moreso look up the benefits for each..
> 
> ...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 19, 2018)

KPM said:


> I've seen some Wing Chun people that took the idea of "inward pressure" at the knees a bit to far to the point that their knees point further inward than their feet.  So the knee and the toes were not on the same line or pointing in the same direction.  This is hard on the knees!


Agree that knee should not pass over toes is the general guideline.

By using the "shin bite", if your opponent resists, you may have to drop your knee on the ground. As long as your heel is up and the relative position of your knee is still not over your toes, you should be OK.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 19, 2018)

KabutoKouji said:


> I still find it very hard to 'flow' enough during Lien Bu Quan etc.


How to flow through your form depends on your application. If in your mind, you think about

- solo moves, you won't flow.
- combos, you will flow.

For example, when you throw 3 punches, you can do the following ways:

1. fast, fast, fast - you try to knock 3 holes on your opponent's body.
2. fast, slow, fast - you try to knock 1 hole on your opponent's body, if fail, you try to use the 2nd move to set up the 3rd move.
3. slow, slow, fast - Your try to use the 1st and 2nd moves to set up the 3rd move.
4. ...

Both 2 and 3 can flow better than 1. If in your mind, you are using one move (or moves) to set up next move, you can flow.

Another example is a kick followed by a punch. If you

- put 100% power on both your kick and punch, you won't flow.
- only put 30% power on your kick (you assume your opponent will drop his arm to block it), you then use 100% power on your punch, you can flow.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 19, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> My view is that it should be driven by the mechanics needed. If the position is for balance, often the foot position is more important, unless the feet are next to each other. In any other stance, there's a bit of sacrifice of stability to the inside of one foot. Pivoting the big toe back toward center (for folks like us) off-sets that sacrifice. When the consideration is aim (as with a kick), the knee is more important. I've taken time to consider which matters in each situation where what I was taught probably assumed knees and toes pointed the same way (as with stances where my instructor would say, "The feet should be pointed forward, so the knees stay on target."). In most cases, a quick bit of experimentation will either identify which is important, or show that it makes little difference which, so long as I don't go beyond the two bounds (knee dominant, to toes dominant). Doing this has caused me to use different directions.



An some interesting thoughts, I'm definitely gonna have to experiment a bit, but cool what you said about balance and aim. I'll play around with that. That being said my feet have never really posed an issue in all the years of training, I just never really thought about it before! I don't want to damage anything



KabutoKouji said:


> yes I like Jesse a lot - i found him through the McCarthy version of the Bubishi, and particularly enjoyed his Okinawa series of videos. He has the right attitude to TMA imo, and it is interesting that his brother competes in MMA but Jesse decided to continue his parent's dojo.



Yeah it is interesting their different directions.. but I get a lot out of his videos, especially his drills etc. I bought his Karate Flexibility and Mobility program recently and have started to do drills from there, it's really good. Only thing is there doesn't appear to be any structure or program design to it, so just gotta work through it how you see fit.

I also attended his seminar when he came to Melbourne a few years ago, that was a great experience... 40 plus degree day haha but was awesome




KabutoKouji said:


> yeah I'm pretty tense and over the top when I perform moves or patterns, because I came from ITF TKD (and our instructor really constantly wanted 'maximum power' in every move), I still find it very hard to 'flow' enough during Lien Bu Quan etc.



Yeah am definitely learning nowadays to relax more... actually tends to help power generation so much more... And I've tested that on the heavy bag too



JR 137 said:


>



Haha ah intense man . I certainly remember going through Sanchin 'under duress'. But wowza... I guess it's good to practice with that much tension every now and then, but to me I don't know if that would really teach correct alignment in the long run...? Maybe stancewise initially, but teaching yourself to hold that much tension IN ORDER TO maintain correct alignment doesn't seem right... the ability to move into and out of stance with ease, flow and precision would be compromised... just a thought! Am not sure if tension is released in the steps forward etc in this version...


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 19, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> An some interesting thoughts, I'm definitely gonna have to experiment a bit, but cool what you said about balance and aim. I'll play around with that. That being said my feet have never really posed an issue in all the years of training, I just never really thought about it before! I don't want to damage anything


If you haven't needed to think of it, it's probably not causing problems. Just pay a bit of attention to the torque on your knees.


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## geezer (Jan 19, 2018)

KPM said:


> I've seen some Wing Chun people that took the idea of "inward pressure" at the knees a bit to far to the point that their knees point further inward than their feet.  So *the knee and the toes were not on the same line or pointing in the same direction.*  This is hard on the knees!



Like Gerry, my knees and feet do not align, especially on the right side. If my knee is pointing straight forward, my foot angles outward. You know, what they call "duck footed" ...so my knee is always pointing inward more than my foot. 

In another style, I had an over-zealous instructor try to physically correct my stance and nearly messed up my knee. I guess he thought I was just being stubborn. When he realized that he was injuring me, he told me that it was my own fault for having "the wrong kind of legs". Sheeesh!


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 20, 2018)

geezer said:


> Like Gerry, my knees and feet do not align, especially on the right side. If my knee is pointing straight forward, my foot angles outward. You know, what they call "duck footed" ...so my knee is always pointing inward more than my foot.
> 
> In another style, I had an over-zealous instructor try to physically correct my stance and nearly messed up my knee. I guess he thought I was just being stubborn. When he realized that he was injuring me, he told me that it was my own fault for having "the wrong kind of legs". Sheeesh!


Well, it wasn't a wise decision, Geezer. Someone your age should know better, damnit!


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## callMeHawkEye (Feb 8, 2018)

So why does wing chun train with such a weird stance? What is the function of the low horse stance like this with the weird pigeon toe?  Why not use the traditional standard horse stance?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## wckf92 (Feb 8, 2018)

callMeHawkEye said:


> So why does wing chun train with such a weird stance? What is the function of the low horse stance like this with the weird pigeon toe?  Why not use the traditional standard horse stance?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk



Not all WC trains in that "weird" stance. BTW, how do you define weird? 

And by "low horse stance"...are you meaning the pigeon toed stance? A "low horse" in some WC is in the pole form, but the toes are not pigeon toed.

Can you supply a pic or example photo of what you mean by "standard horse stance"?


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## Ojibway Bob (Feb 8, 2018)

I myself am new to the style of Wing Chun but I did ask this last week because I have a bit of a knee problem. I was told it helps to strength up your legs, create your root strength. At first I found this such a weird stance but after a few weeks it did not really bug me. I also find my knees feel good for a few days after training.



callMeHawkEye said:


> So why does wing chun train with such a weird stance? What is the function of the low horse stance like this with the weird pigeon toe?  Why not use the traditional standard horse stance?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Juany118 (Feb 9, 2018)

KPM said:


> I've seen some Wing Chun people that took the idea of "inward pressure" at the knees a bit to far to the point that their knees point further inward than their feet.  So the knee and the toes were not on the same line or pointing in the same direction.  This is hard on the knees!



I would think this is also simply bad structure for the proposed purpose.  Whether you turn your feet in or not (like TWC), the purpose of the mah, in how I am taught, is in part to ram home the fact that everything starts, and ends, at the ground.  My punch starts at the ground, when I deflect an attack some energy is still imparted on my body, this travels to the ground.  If your knees aren't lined up properly with your feet, in the extreme manner you describe, dont you create a choke point for that energy and does that not then impart a "bad habit" of sorts?

Now of course people will have natural issues, there is a fellow student at my school that due to a nervous system disorder has a severely turned in foot.  You can compensate for that, to an extent, because it is a known natural condition.  However training yourself to take such a position seems a different thing to me, though maybe their mah is serving a different purpose.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 9, 2018)

KPM said:


> I've seen some Wing Chun people that took the idea of "inward pressure" at the knees a bit to far to the point that their knees point further inward than their feet.  So the knee and the toes were not on the same line or pointing in the same direction.  This is hard on the knees!


The combine stance is training for that.


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