# Mitose/Chow documents to be released



## Karazenpo (Oct 5, 2004)

Here's something very interesting. Dr. Ted Sumner just received more Mitose documents from Gm. Thomas Barro Mitose that he will be scanning to post in a few days on his San Jose Kenpo Karate site. These included documents of Professor Chow in the form of his application for a birth certificate and related affidavits. These documents have Chow's actual signature which now can be compared to any certificate of rank promotion anyone has bearing Chow's name.


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## kelly keltner (Oct 5, 2004)

I just read Mr. Sumner's post. I don't think it says he got the Documents from TMB. I could be reading it wrong, or missinterpreting it. Please double check it Joe and let me Know what you think.

kell


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## Karazenpo (Oct 5, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> I just read Mr. Sumner's post. I don't think it says he got the Documents from TMB. I could be reading it wrong, or missinterpreting it. Please double check it Joe and let me Know what you think.
> 
> kell



Thanks, Kell. You're right. Don't know where I got that from unless I read something in another forum and it stuck in my mind but I stand corrected on the source. It is not Gm. Thomas B. Mitose. Sorry about that!


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## Thunderbolt (Oct 5, 2004)

Here is the link for people who are interested in reading

http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/articles.htm


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## John Bishop (Oct 5, 2004)

Hard to figure if James Mitose ever told the truth during his life.  
His "Marriage Certificate" says he was "22 years old".  It also says he "resided in Hawaii 22 years".  
Now didn't he claim to have lived in Japan several of those 22 years?


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## The Kai (Oct 5, 2004)

If I am not wrong I did the math on interview with Chow's father-18 kids in 14 yrs if my math ain't bad.


todd


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## M.C. Busman (Oct 5, 2004)

I suspect not.  I wonder if J Mitose was deceptive by nature, or learned to be such through some external influence.

Notice J Mitose listed his occupation on his marriage cert as jewelry salesman.  

Compare & contrast the Divorce decree wherein Mrs. Mitose resumes her maiden name of Yoshida w/ Mitose's listing of her name as Komatsu.  

I enjoyed the picture of the young Chow on his application for HI birth. 



Y'all Take Care,

M.C. Busman


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## Matt (Oct 5, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Here's something very interesting. Dr. Ted Sumner just received more Mitose documents from Gm. Thomas Barro Mitose that he will be scanning to post in a few days on his San Jose Kenpo Karate site. These included documents of Professor Chow in the form of his application for a birth certificate and related affidavits. These documents have Chow's actual signature which now can be compared to any certificate of rank promotion anyone has bearing Chow's name.



Hats off (again) to Mr. Sumner. This is like a feast. 

Matt


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## Goldendragon7 (Oct 6, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Hard to figure if James Mitose ever told the truth during his life.
> His "Marriage Certificate" says he was "22 years old".  It also says he "resided in Hawaii 22 years".
> Now didn't he claim to have lived in Japan several of those 22 years?


 Oh man....... John.... You are the best!  

 I luv ya man!  

 :asian:


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## The Kai (Oct 6, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Hard to figure if James Mitose ever told the truth during his life.
> His "Marriage Certificate" says he was "22 years old". It also says he "resided in Hawaii 22 years".
> Now didn't he claim to have lived in Japan several of those 22 years?


The claim is 17 years  that he lived in Japan, leaving when he was, like 3 years old.  Quite a busy time, Mitose learned up to a mastery level.
Ken(m)po - Hard style striking (which he taught)
Ken(m)po - Soft Style striking (which he taught to some degree)
Throwing arts- Which he did not teach
Spear arts-which he did not teach
Sword arts-which he did'nt teach
Rounding out his education was caligraphy, healing arts and a complete study of every religion on the face of the earth (Whew!)

The more documents are released the darker it gets


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## John Bishop (Oct 6, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> The claim is 17 years that he lived in Japan, leaving when he was, like 3 years old. Quite a busy time, Mitose learned up to a mastery level.
> Ken(m)po - Hard style striking (which he taught)
> Ken(m)po - Soft Style striking (which he taught to some degree)
> Throwing arts- Which he did not teach
> ...


That's the typical problem with history "according to James Mitose".  Even the "21st Great Grandmaster" can't be in two countries at the same time.


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## Michael Billings (Oct 6, 2004)

Sorry guys ... I know I should be respectful and tolerant of all, but I have to <<insert snicker here>>  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 wonder at just how this stirs everyone up.  Once again, we all have opinions, and so far, I see few of those changing because of alleged "empirical" evidence.  We will beleive what we want to, or what we are taught by our seniors, and defend our own systems, styles or lineages vehemently, regardless of other's opinions or evidence.  

 Just look at Bush / Reagan now ... or better the VP debate.  Contradictions galore, but how do they affect the staunch supporters ... about the same as "new" evidence" does here.

 Ah well, I guess ya'll must enjoy the dialogue much more so than me.

 -Michael


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 7, 2004)

i think its funny how one man has created so much controversy and how many people care.

shawn


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## The Kai (Oct 7, 2004)

When the historical basis is used to shore up a claim of superiority or soverienty it becomes a issue.

You cannot to be studing a art going back to the middle ages, that cannot be improved cuz it stood the test of time-and not have any evidence as to your claims
Todd


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 7, 2004)

people spend a lot of time talking about improving something........tell me how you improve nature?

this is going off topic though

shawn


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## Michael Billings (Oct 8, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> When the historical basis is used to shore up a claim of superiority or soverienty it becomes a issue.
> 
> You cannot to be studing a art going back to the middle ages, that cannot be improved cuz it stood the test of time-and not have any evidence as to your claims
> Todd


 Not necessarily.  Has the art stood the test of time regardless of the political or social upheavals?  Of course it does.  The feeling of superiority one may, or may not feel, in being right - actually has more bearing on why people debate and dig for the histiorical fact patterns.  Unfortunatly it is a unique individual that actually allows him or herself to be swayed from familiar territory into what they perceive as an attack on their art, their founders, or themselves as practitioners of said art.  

 This is obviously not unique to the martial arts, and history is being rewritten every day .... usually by the "winners" or "survivors".

 Way, way off topic.  I am bowing out unless needed as a SMod.





 -Michael


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## GAB (Oct 8, 2004)

Hi,

It is getting pretty well covered, you have to admit, for the good or bad of it.

The information is being brought to the forefront, discussed and rehashed. Now information is coming that might, make the picture harder to see or easier if you are looking for the truth or looking for answers, or to say he was a very dishonest person. 

But he was a good martial artist and that is the criteria we are after when being taught Kempo.

I think the information can still be inturpreted both ways, or more then two ways, lets say many ways. 

The japanese in that time and place were known for there standing statement as to the three faces they show to the world.

This thread is similar to an investigation after the fact, some times when removed from the scene you are able to see the forest and the trees.

It might be hard for some to understand the desire to have as much information as Hanshi has, he has explained it so many times he is sick of the story and the subject. 

I will clairify that statement, he has a lot of information that others do not, he feels that what he is teaching is the art handed down to him by James Mitose. 

One of the things that Mitose wanted was for his name to be remembered for
along time after he is gone. So that is why it is still spoken and rehashed, sort of making a deal and sticking with it. 

There is a story and that is what we want the people who are investigating to see and to make up their minds based on data and what the people in Kempo and Kenpo have to say before it is put into a documentary and misconstrued again.

Regards, Gary


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## The Kai (Oct 8, 2004)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> people spend a lot of time talking about improving something........tell me how you improve nature?
> 
> this is going off topic though
> 
> shawn


Spend a night sleeping beneath a tree, then spend a night sleeping in your own bed and then ask me again!


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## The Kai (Oct 8, 2004)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> Not necessarily. Has the art stood the test of time regardless of the political or social upheavals? Of course it does. The feeling of superiority one may, or may not feel, in being right - actually has more bearing on why people debate and dig for the histiorical fact patterns. Unfortunatly it is a unique individual that actually allows him or herself to be swayed from familiar territory into what they perceive as an attack on their art, their founders, or themselves as practitioners of said art.
> 
> This is obviously not unique to the martial arts, and history is being rewritten every day .... usually by the "winners" or "survivors".
> 
> ...


I guess when you are talking the art has stood the trest of time you mean from the middle ages, or the 1940's?


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 8, 2004)

ask me about sleeping under a tree and in my own bed......ok. thats human ingenuity.....quite natural. you were saying?

shawn


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## The Kai (Oct 8, 2004)

You were saying something to the effect that you can nnot improve on nature, that's one example.  Horse vs. Car another example.

From medicinal to sport science we as a people know so much more about the body then ever before.  Alt of people have a tendancy to glorify Herbology, and other traditional medicines-please remember that the human has about 40 years when we relied exclusively on folklore medicines.
As a martial artist I have the means and access to more knowledge about the arts and how to work the body.  In the last 50 years the martial arts have changed profoundly, to ignore that is a dogmatic approach to say  the least
Todd


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## GAB (Oct 9, 2004)

Kai,

That is very true, but if one of us from the other side of the view(Kosho) 
were to say what you did, we would then be told that Hanshi Bruce is not teaching what Mitose taught.

Alas, the same scenario, Hanshi goes to the next level and then he is not teaching the same, he teaches the same, and he is dogmatic.

Both are for consideration, in each and every Martial Art.

Take EPAK for example, if you would.

What in the name Kai, means Kajukenbo, or Kajukenpo, or Kaju Kenpo???.

I looking at that would look at the play on words, IE. Karate, Jujutsu + Kenpo or we can even go one step further, continue to speculate, and say you made that all up. Are you worse for it???  

Mitose for better or worse was the start, for the western world. 
Kaji is a great art, it has also evolved out of its self.

Mitose warned Hanshi 'beware of the nit picker', now that, has not evolved.

Lets see some Documentation from the other side of the debate!
We then can become also the nit picker. 

I don't want to be the only one who has not requested documentation, then when given it, will be able to continue this debate on the same level to pick the story apart. 

I would also like to evolve. Without your side contributing, what this side has, it is really pretty much, pointless to continue.

Regards, Gary

PS. I have asked many questions, received no answers????


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## The Kai (Oct 9, 2004)

Gab

i don't really understand where the questions are, you have a tendency to try to sound like afortune cookie
Did i make up the name KaJuKenpo no, AlGene Carulia did.
Documentation that Kenpo doe'snt go back to japan, so you want documentation that something is not there?


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## GAB (Oct 9, 2004)

Ok Kai,

Do you see the same thing I do in your post?  
In your reply to your martial art?

Picky, picky.

Fortune cookie how nice. Yummy.

Regards, Gary


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## Brother John (Oct 9, 2004)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i think its funny how one man has created so much controversy and how many people care.
> 
> shawn


Actually I read it out of curiousity, but it has NO impact on me.
Saint
Criminal
Master
NOt...

I don't care.
It's sort of like a soap opera, not sure who to root for...and I could take it or leave it.
HOWEVER: The whole prospect of being able to verrify certain certificates....that's Interesting.

Your Brother
John


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## GAB (Oct 9, 2004)

Brother John, in respect's to your thoughts, I will be glad when it is finalized.
Wait, that is not the right word.

For the rest.

It is coming and so is Christmas. Just like the sun it will come up, (according to my sources).

But I want it now! 
I will give it to you when I am good and ready! 
But I want it now!!! 
Go to your room!!!!!  Child goes to room crying...

I have said it several times, the people who had to look for it, and feel they found it, are not going to give it up, just because, you want it now!

Lots of money, time, and frustration went into the time and place we are at.
Lets throw in ridicule, trying to walk into the eye of a hurricane, comes to mind. Will we ever get there? 

We will see.

Tales will be told about this man for a lot longer than he or Hanshi ever thought it would go. Hanshi' name also. 

A deal is a deal.

How does it taste, Kai, what angle would you call that?

My observation anyhow.

Regards, Gary


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## The Kai (Oct 9, 2004)

Wow. confused and dazedThe name of the thread is "documents to be released".  Put up or shut up, now go to your corner and think about it
T


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## GAB (Oct 9, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> Actually I read it out of curiousity, but it has NO impact on me.
> Saint
> Criminal
> Master
> ...


 

Hi Brother John,

Are you well travled, worthy and qualified, true blue and all that???

Yes, to all the above, and then some.

Interesting, is a very interesting word, agenda, comes to mind. 

Hanshi likes to use the word, 'Logical'...

I am in the office of logistics, run by a logician.

Does that make any sense? NOT.

I will not spend much more time on this subject, or like threads for awhile.

To many other things to do. 

But I would like to talk to you. Write etc, you know what I mean???

Regards, Gary


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## GAB (Oct 9, 2004)

Todd,

You know where they are so, go there.

Kelly said to tell you to GO to your sand box, Dan Jordan, and play there.

Please, take it up with Kelly.

Regards, Gary


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## The Kai (Oct 9, 2004)

Actually my name is'nt Don Jordan, but thanks anyway

(Todd)
The Kai


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## The Kai (Oct 9, 2004)

Again if you don't want the controversy from these discussions, then don't start the thread!


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## GAB (Oct 10, 2004)

Kai,

Actually I was not calling you by that name. I read it now and it is confusing.

Oh well, one more confused post after another, no biggie.

I did not start this thread, but I do understand.

Regards, Gary


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## Karazenpo (Oct 10, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Again if you don't want the controversy from these discussions, then don't start the thread!



Todd, I started the thread from what I learned from Dr. Ted Sumner on the San Jose Kenpo forum, not Gary. I know what you mean though so perhaps we can re-phrase your reply to Gary. "Again if you don't want the controversy from these discussions, then don't REPLY to the thread." There, that's better, lol.


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## GAB (Oct 10, 2004)

Hi Joe.

Nice, I like that.:uhyeah: 

Regards, Gary


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## Bahusafoo (Jun 19, 2021)

Hi all - I know this is an old thread, but does anyone happen to still have links or can point me in a dorection to the documents referenced here early on in the convo?  

Thank you in advance!


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