# Kenpo Styles with Traditional Karate Kata?



## Satori (Aug 10, 2005)

Are there any Kenpo styles that incorporate Traditional Karate Kata in their syllabus?  By "Traditional Karate Kata", I mean the Heian series, Tekki series, Rohai, Jion, Saipai, Saifa, Bassai Dai, etc... typically found within Shotokan, Goju Ryu, or Shito Ryu.

I'm fairly certain that Tracy Kenpo, American Kenpo, Motion Kenpo, and Ed Parker's American Kenpo don't, and I believe that some of the Villari SKK forms (Pinions, I remember them being called...which I wasn't sure if it was a chinese word or a bastardization of Okinawan "Pinan") are very similar to the Heian Series and that the "Stature of the Crane" is VERY similar to Matsumura Rohai.

What about Kosho Ryu, Kara Ho, KajuKenBo, Karazenpo Goshin Jutsu, etc...?  Does anyone have any experience with these or other forms of Kenpo, and are aware of similarities between their Kata and Traditional Karate Kata?

The reason for my inquiry is rather silly and embarassing, but I'll share it in the hope of supporting feedback.

I love Kenpo, and after several years of study, I wish to make it my "core" art (big fan of cross training here).  However, I recently studied Shito-Ryu Karate for a number of years (intensely, 4-6 days a week, 2-3 hours a day), which is VERY kata heavy.  At my peak, I learned around 20 Kata or so, though I've only continued to practice and retain 7 or so.

After studying Tracy Kenpo for a bit, I realized that I really do love the Traditional Karate Kata...but the Kenpo methodology, practice, and "technique system" really appeal to me.  

So I'm looking for a style of Kenpo where I can effectively have "The Best of Both Worlds".  

Probably a pipe dream, but if anyone would know, it would be the posters here.

Thanks!

May you achieve
Satori


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## MJS (Aug 10, 2005)

I havent seen anything like that in EPAK, but as you said, you'd probably stand a better chance of seeing similarities in the Villari system as well as Karazenpo.

Mike


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## BlackCatBonz (Aug 10, 2005)

in kosho ryu we study alot of the classical karate kata's. pinan, naihanchi, sanchin, tensho, bassai, empi etc.


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## MisterMike (Aug 10, 2005)

How long should a Form be aroud before we call it traditional. The Ed Parker forms have been around for 35+ years by my best guess.

Shotokan is relatively new (but then again so is most karate) compared to Ju Jutsu, etc. At some point, someone deemed them traditional as well.


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## BlackCatBonz (Aug 10, 2005)

shotokan is relatively new, but the forms are not. traditional would imply something that follows tradition. ed parker purposely eschewed tradition in order to make something more "modern and applicable".


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## Pacificshore (Aug 10, 2005)

Satori:

My original form of Kenpo, out katas consisted of Fukiyu 1-2, Pinans 1-5, a form of Bassai, Anaku 1-2, etc.  So I believe there are those systems of Kenpo/Kempo that do study the more traditional forms, it is just a matter of finding those particular schools.  Good luck


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## marlon (Aug 10, 2005)

look for kempo styles with asian sounding names...kosho; shorinji...or just apply your kenpo knowledge to another style or study some traditional katas and bring your kenpo training to it.  The pinans in shaolin kempo and Nick Cerio kenpo are from Kyokushin and are essentially the Heien series with modifications...actually i know that N.Cerio kenpo also teaches Empi and probably others as Prof. cerio really keyed inyto Okinawan karate later on.  BTW, yes Staute of the Crane is based on Rohai.  Some Kajukenbo styles and myself teach Naihanchi kata which seems to be the only kata J.Mitose taught.


Respectfully,
Marlon


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## searcher (Aug 10, 2005)

In the Hawaiian Kenpo of the Ronald Alo lineage that I first started in we used the "traditional" kata.   I know that the Okinawan Kenpo style uses these kata as well.


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## eyebeams (Aug 10, 2005)

My art includes Kennin (not something I've seen elsewhere), Seisan (a markedly different version that the usual), Naihanchi, Bassai (Passai) and Empi (Wansu). No Pinans and only five kata because each is meant to encompass around 1-3 years of study, after about 3-5 years of initial training to develop fundamental combative skills. The full Ryukai system therefore requires a minimum of 8 years and perhaps as much as 20. At 8 years I completed (knew with enough depth to move on, not mastered) study of Kennin, Seisan, and Naihanchi.

 If you want to keep doing kenpo while working kata bunkai, my suggestion would be to train informally with a good karateka.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 10, 2005)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> *How long should a Form be aroud before we call it traditional. The Ed Parker forms have been around for 35+ years by my best guess.*
> 
> Shotokan is relatively new (but then again so is most karate) compared to Ju Jutsu, etc. At some point, someone deemed them traditional as well.


Awesome question, time will tell.


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## searcher (Aug 10, 2005)

It does beg the question of what makes a kata traditional?    Most of the kata that "traditional" schools practise are around 100 years old.    Some more and some less.   I train in an eclectic form of a "traditional" style and have no idea what makes something traditional.


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## kajukenpo_grl (Aug 10, 2005)

In KI Kajukenpo we pratice what you are considering "traditional karate kata" such as  pinan, naihanchi, sanchin, tensho, bassai, empi etc....


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## DavidCC (Aug 10, 2005)

Our version of Shaolin Kempo uses the 5 pinan series, 5 otehr kata, and 5 goju kata.


I have seen that our "Pinan 1" is _identical_ to a Tang Soo Do form I saw on video.  Some of our other pinan are very similar but not identical to forms demonstrated for us by Prof. Michael Rash of Karazenpo.

We also have 5 kata and these I believe come down to us from Cerio.

After Shodan we then learn kata from Goju Ryu - traditional okinawan kata. Sepai, Seisan, Sanchin, a few more... and some 2-mans.  I'll let you know when I get there


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## OC Kid (Aug 10, 2005)

www.jabka.org

I got my B/B in this system. before I ever really new anything about kempo.
Now that Ive taken kempo I realize that the system is a very good blend of kempo and a japanese hard style. The forms and basics are japanese hard style, the fighting and self defense are very much like kempo. In fact one of the older b/b who used to be in the system told me that he incorporated elf defense techniques from hawaian kenpo. They have developed since then. (about 30 years or so.)

getting by the politics it is a very good system. A nice blend


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## MisterMike (Aug 10, 2005)

I heard this the other week meeting with some MA practitioners.



> Traditions change over time. It may be the same tradition but look slightly different, but in essence feels the same. Look at Thanksgiving holiday. A broad look at it shows you sitting down with family eating a dinner giving thanks.
> 
> Year to year, the place settings may change, but you still sit down to eat.



Seems to boil down to individual tastes and what each person views as tradition. A tradition can be old, or it can be started tomorrow. So, even though the word tradition is tossed around a lot and most take it to mean "old" or "original" ways of doing things, traditions can be new as well.


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## KenpoDave (Aug 10, 2005)

Kyoshi Roger Greene, who is a 9th degree in Tracy's Kenpo, teaches traditional katas from the Moo Duk Won style.  What I know of are the kipon and the pinan series.  His presentation of correct movement based on the breakdown of kata is incredible, and for that purpose, I have incorporated them into my own teaching.

Satori, I would say continue studying kenpo, and continue practicing the katas you know and love.  Correct movement is correct movement.


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## eyebeams (Aug 11, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> It does beg the question of what makes a kata traditional? Most of the kata that "traditional" schools practise are around 100 years old. Some more and some less. I train in an eclectic form of a "traditional" style and have no idea what makes something traditional.


 By some reckonings they would be even younger than that. By other measurements, they'd be older. Nowadays, for instance, it's possible to trace the histories of some kata back to Southern China, but the equivalent forms in Monk Fist and Southern Crane look about as different from the old style kata as the old style kata look compared to the modern kata. Which one should we use to measure a form's age? I have no idea.

 What is really important in terms of tradition is the ability to interpret kata in a moderate and effective fashion, eschewing impracticality for the sake of form while avoiding the tendency to make kata meaningless by allowing excessively losse interpretations.


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## sauzin25 (Aug 19, 2005)

Okinawan Kenpo, which really isn't related to other Kenpo's at all, practices many Shorin-ryu kata's.  Our particular flavor of Okinawan Kenpo even practices a few Goju katas.  We also practice a plethora of different weapon kata's.  Here's a list of a few of these kata:

-Naihanchi Shodan, Nidan, and Sandan (Also called Tekki's by the Japanese)
-Pinan Shodan, Nidan, Sandan, Yondan, and Godan
-Wansu
-Ananku
-Sesan
-Niseshi
-Passai-dai
-Seuichin
-Sunsu
-Kusanku-dai
-Koru Gojushiho
-Haksuru

Just to name a few.  There's more...


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## BlackCatBonz (Aug 19, 2005)

sauzin25 said:
			
		

> Okinawan Kenpo, which really isn't related to other Kenpo's at all, practices many Shorin-ryu kata's. Our particular flavor of Okinawan Kenpo even practices a few Goju katas. We also practice a plethora of different weapon kata's. Here's a list of a few of these kata:
> 
> -Naihanchi Shodan, Nidan, and Sandan *(Also called Tekki's by the Japanese)*
> -Pinan Shodan, Nidan, Sandan, Yondan, and Godan
> ...


funakoshi changed the name of this kata to tekki when he altered the kamae to a deep horse stance. the name tekki reflects this, just as the name naihanchi reflects the type of kamae to be used.


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## dianhsuhe (Jan 12, 2006)

Satori-  I can only speak for Kara-Ho Kempo.... We do not use any of the traditional forms you mentioned but there are 4 empty hand Kata's between White Belt and Shodan- 

Not many forms but what we do have are >  L   o   n   g. 

There are also weapons kata's in the kyu ranks- 2 bo forms, 2 Sai forms, and 1 Nunchaku form.

Hope this helped a little-

James


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## jdinca (Jan 12, 2006)

Our system starts out pretty hard in style and "softens up" as the student progresses. The katas are the same way. That said though, three of the katas required for brown belt are called "Bi-Ti's" and come from Shotokan.


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