# What characterizes the empty hand techniques of Ninjitsu?



## Ravensign (Jul 9, 2002)

All I hear about Ninjitsu are about how secret it is, and how its a comprehensive combat art.

I am just curious what Ninjitsu hand to hand fighting is like. Is there a system that is more widely known that it resembles?

Thanks.


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## Cthulhu (Jul 9, 2002)

Having only a very basic knowledge of ninjutsu, I can only mention taijutsu, or ninpo taijutsu, or whatever they call it nowadays.

Also, except for maybe the more esoteric teachings, ninjutsu really isn't that secretive any more.

Jay Bell can better answer your questions, I think.  He's demonstrated a tremendous amount of knowledge about ninjutsu, it's history, and traditions.  Waitaminute...ain't that a book? 

Cthulhu


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## Jay Bell (Jul 9, 2002)

Hi all,

Well after that setup...my goodness...how could I not respond  

The only Ninpo school that I've studied is Togakure ryu...and not as a whole, just yearly seminars up in the woods...so my take on Togakure ryu is pretty limited.

That said, it's my understanding that the Taijutsu from Togakure ryu is very evasive (unarmed).  The core idea seems to be to down the attacker, blind them in some sort of way then run and hide.

The mentality behind was pretty fascinating when explained to us.  In a very different angle, you are preserving the life of that person who attempted to attack you.  There is a very strong tie with nature within the Togakure ryu, and killing goes against the laws of nature unless deemed absolutely necessary.

The physical skills are very evasive and flowing.  Unfortunately there's not really an art that seems much at all like Togakure ryu outside of itself.

As Cthulhu said, Ninpo training is not secretive at all.  Traditions that do claim to be secretive or teach "unknown deadly secrets" should be viewed as jokes and passed on.

Thanks much, Cthulhu, for the kind words.

Be well!


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## Bujingodai (Jul 9, 2002)

Jay has it right. Evasive techniques and flow are the mainstay. i guess in an idea like Aikido but not LOL. Any school that claims to teach the secret stuff I'd be leary of.


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## Shinryu (Jul 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ravensign _
> 
> *All I hear about Ninjitsu are about how secret it is, and how its a comprehensive combat art.
> 
> ...



The Word is NINJUTSU, not ninjitsu.
All I got to say, Listen to Jay


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## arnisador (Jul 10, 2002)

I'd be interested to hear more; can someone break down for us a specific technique that demonstrates this type of evasive fighting system?


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## Blacktiger2186 (Jul 13, 2002)

you could say ninjutsu well the Bujinkan Taijutsu is like jujitsu. 6 of the schools that bujinkan teaches is jujitsu and the other 3 is ninja schools.

so the anwser to your question is it resembles jujitsu.


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## Jay Bell (Jul 13, 2002)

Blacktiger,

Actually, that's not the case at all.  Togakure ryu is not 'jujutsu'.  And there is more ninpo in the schools of the Bujinkan then the three ryuha that are Ninpo Taijutsu.  The theme of this year's training is Takagi Yoshin ryu Jutaijutsu....being a Jujutsu school.


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## Blacktiger2186 (Jul 13, 2002)

Jay Bell ,

There are only 3 Main Ninpo schools in the bujinkan system. I know Togakure Ryu isn't jujitsu its one of the ninpo schools.


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## Jay Bell (Jul 13, 2002)

Yes, Togakure ryu is a Ninpo ryuha.  However, saying that Ninpo is only contained in the three Ninpo Taijutsu ryuha of the Bujinkan is incorrect.

Ninpo exists in Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu etc..


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## Makoto-Dojo (Nov 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *I'd be interested to hear more; can someone break down for us a specific technique that demonstrates this type of evasive fighting system? *



Ninpo Taijutsu containst the following aspects.

*Daken taijutsu:*

Daken is a striking art using crushing blows to vital areas on the attackers body. Even the joint locking is done in such a way as to crush and destroy the joint. It is very brutal and are direct battlefield techniques. This is similar to kali in many ways, in terms of Gunting and pannatukan/panananjakman etc... 

Difference is that while kali uses many blows that mirror the knife cutting the person to ribbons. Daken, move away (like kali zoning) and crushes the attack until they can enter. When they do, they lock a joint or many joints at once, then holding the joints in this "about to break" position, they use total body weight to slam the attacker to the ground crushing and destroying the joint structure. Vital area attacks continue from here.

*Koppo Jutsu:*

Koppojutsu is using the bone structure in attack to create awesome power. this is very close to Tai Chi and Hsing Yi. Alignment of the bones, use of momentum and gaining power from the earth.

Another aspect is attacking the bones of the attacker. Bone breaking is a mainstay in this art. Striking 90 degrees to a bone with full body power in an effort to break it in half. 

*Kosshi Jutsu*

This art is close to some styles of silat. Also Ba Kua and Wing Chun. However it is unique to it's self. It is said to have come from China and the flavor is easy to see. But it has evolved to a unique art all it's own.

The use of the bones of the hand, fingers. Feet and toes are directed to vital areas. It is the study of attacking these weakpoints with multipal strikes and creating a spinning vortex of energy.

*Ju Tai Jutsu*

Also ju jutsu, yawara etc.. This is the study of using the attackers energy against him. Using throws and joint locks and strong pinning techniques. Like Aikido, but more... Brutal. like Judo, but using less strength. Unlike both the above examples, Jutai Jutsu includes strikes and kicks as well

In Genbukan Ninpo Bugei, all of these arts are combined into a functional system that covers all aspects of self protection. Basic to our movement, is taisabaki. Or avoiding the attack. Much like Kali's zero pressure idea We move from the danger into a position where we have the advantage.

This movement includes rolling and leaping as well as stepping. A great example is any jackie chan movie. He is here, he is there. He is up, he is down.. Like a monkey, hard to catch. This is our Taihenjutsu which is our base movement.

Our concept of self protection is broad enough to include dealing with people throwing things from a distance. Trying to run us over with a car. Shooting at use whatever. It is important that your body can respond at any second to move in any direction.

In addition we train in many weapons, both historical and modern.
The use of all around us as a weapon or "tool" is also taught and practiced. Unlike a sporting event, true life and death requires we use EVERYTHING and ANYTHING to give us an advantage. It is not about playing fair, instead, it is about living another day.

We also train in spiritual methods to gain wisdown, so we can know and have the vision and wisdom to make correct decisions in these times. Every action has many layers of result to it. This wisdom governs our every thought word and action.

Genbukan Ninpo Taijutsu is something that must be experienced. It is unique and functional. As well as beautiful and darn fun to train in. I feel it can stand alongside any other great art and be proud.

Kind regards,


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## heretic888 (Nov 7, 2002)

thanks for the info, there.  

i have a question, however. could anyone tell me if the description given concerning Genbukan ninpo taijutsu is basically similar to Bujinkan taijutsu or Jinenkan taijutsu..... or are there actual differences to the taijutsu of the various schools??? and, if so, what??

thanks.


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## arnisador (Nov 26, 2002)

See also the review by Phil Elmore referred to in this thread.


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## Makoto-Dojo (Nov 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *See also the review by Phil Elmore referred to in this thread. *



Fair enough but also remember that the person who made the video has ZERO to do with Genbukan NINPO and little to do with Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

Second remember Phil has very limited martial arts experience.

Basically the review sheds no light at all on Ninpo. With that enjoy the review...


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## arnisador (Nov 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Makoto-Dojo _
> 
> *Fair enough but also remember that the person who made the video has ZERO to do with Genbukan NINPO and little to do with Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.*



Indeed, I took that as something of the point of the matter.

I do not know how much martial arts experience Mr. Elmore has.


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## Phil Elmore (Nov 27, 2002)

> Fair enough but also remember that the person who made the video has ZERO to do with Genbukan NINPO and little to do with Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.
> 
> Second remember Phil has very limited martial arts experience.
> 
> Basically the review sheds no light at all on Ninpo. With that enjoy the review...



Mr. Richard Ray Dojo-Cho posted an extremely hostile response to a thread about that review at e-budo, in which he said I was not qualified to do the review, mischaracterized components of it, and generally had quite a fit over the idea that people would be making general conclusions about "Ninpo" based on the Bujingodai.

None of this is, of course, correct.  The tape is an example of nothing but what one modern Ninjutsu school does.  The review does not claim to offer any great insight into the matter;  it only reports, fairly and honestly, what is going on in the tape.  Nor do I myself run around saying, "Listen to me!  I'm an expert!"  The review was never intended to offer insight into "Ninpo," either -- a word that never appears in it.

I would not characterize eleven years spent studying various martial arts as "very limited experience," though I don't much care what Richard (or anyone else) thinks.  Whenever someone dislikes a review I've written, usually for some personal reason, they immediately start attacking me as a _person_ -- which is fine by me, as it doesn't mean a thing to me.  I have very little go invested in what I do;  I do it because it is fun and it is important in the achievement of certain goals.

The content of the review -- or of any person's review or article -- stands on its own.  Either it makes sense or it doesn't.  It can be judged based on the degree to which its content corresponds to the experience and knowledge of the reader.

It does not trouble me if Richard considers my opinion uninformed, but I find his overreaction at e-budo (since removed by the moderators) curious and telling.

Any students of any form of Ninjutsu so insecure as to believe a single school's training, or an objective analysis of that training made by an outsider, threatens perceptions of all "Ninpo" everywhere, needs to stop and take a very hard look at the Ninjutsu community.  While there are some great schools out there, and I hear plenty of great things about both the Bujinkan and the Genbukan, today's ranks of ninja boast some of the biggest crackpots within the martial arts community.  

Imagine, if you would, that Dave Gibb denied any relationship between what he does and his former Bujinkan training, or denied that he had ever had anything to do with the Bujinkan at all.  People would immediately jump up and down screaming, "See!  He steals from them and then denies his roots!"

Someone like Dave Gibb -- who doesn't claim to represent anyone other than himself, and who makes no secret of how he's arrived at what he's doing now, valid or not -- is the least of your worries, Richard.  There are plenty of wacky black-clad figures within the martial arts community who claim to be teaching Ninjutsu who are doing very real damage to the image of the art.  And _none_ of those people have even a thousandth of a precent of the influence that the Stupid 1980s Ninja Movie Boom had and has.

If you can find something within the review with which you can actually take real issue in a substantive manner, feel free to do so.  Dave Gibb himself thought it was fair and has told me so several times.

I always try to be fair, objective, and honest about everything I do.  That, I suppose, is enough to worry some people who are, perhaps, a little less secure in what they do than they should be.


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## Makoto-Dojo (Nov 27, 2002)

Phil,

I was in no way hostile. You are being dramatic... I was however blunt. I also was not attacking you as a person. Simply stating the truth. You seem upset about my comment of your experience. Well all someone has to do is look at what you posted on your own page: http://philelmore.com/martial/martial.htm

I don't personally buy the argument that a person has "studied" martial arts for 10 years and has yet to achieve a black belt or teacher ranking of some sort. That is "playing" at martial arts not studying. That is my opinion Phil. Also your friend "put together" an art that you study. I find this un-impressive as well. Simple because I have little respect for modern "put together arts" by people who have not trained in a respected style long enough to understand it and achieve some recognition as a master in it. This again is my personal opinion.

Now, I will admit I over reacted a little in my concern about this review. to be honest, on another day I most likely would have just shook my head and moved on. As a matter of fact, even as I was writting it, I was aware that it was not a good idea. Why? because I knew it would turn to this. however, my response was not as venomous as you are making it out to be. I guess it's a good thing I have saved the thread!

So what is my problem with the review??

First you have every right to do whatever you wish, review whatever you wish of course who am I or who is ANYONE to say otherwise!

Also, I have no problem with David Gibb or what he is doing at all! He may even be a fantastic Budoka! But he is not qualified to represent Ninjutsu for SURE and Ninpo.

You say you never use the term Ninpo. Fair enough. But you do use Ninjutsu! The two words are related by most people as is well known, Ninpo contains Ninjutsu. In a way, Ninjutsu is even a worse choice of words seeing as it has been very rarely taught to ANYONE.

Also Modern Ninjutsu to me and everyone I talked to does not sound like "made up hodge podge Ninjutsu" but current Ninjutsu. What Mr. Gibb does is a composite style, he says based about 40% on Bujinkan bujinkan is 60% Budo not Ninjutsu, so one must ask, why an art, (Mr. Gibbs art) uses the term Ninjutsu when maybe 3% if he's lucky is actual ninjutsu other than wanting a connection to the image of "ninja".

My concern with this is not based on insecurity, although please feel free to think as you wish, instead, it is based on simply being tired of all the crap that hangs on the fringes of ninjutsu/Ninpo today.

There are so many side roads, distractions and false information for sincere seekers of actual Ninpo/Ninjutsu knowledge out there. We have people who say, Ninjutsu did poorly in the UFC. But, what do they base that on? Two people from Bob Bussy's group who DON'T DO NINPO/NINJUTSU! Although they use the name...

To the average person, they don't know, if they seen that UFC, then hear of genbukan or bujinkan etc.. They connect the two which is too bad. In addition we have Ashida Kim, Ron Duncan, Carlos febres Rick tew, Frank Dux etc... All of whom advertise heavey ninjutsu/Ninpo all of whom have nothing to do with it, but to the general public, they don't know, so they will base opinions on these peoples actions and abilities.

Back to the review:

When you said





> One of Dave's students repeatedly uses a hand strike that I found curious and very telegraphed.  Extending one hand forward to point at the target while cocking the other back at his hip like a bent wing, he moves forward and strikes with the rear hand while bringing the forward arm back to that chambered position.
> 
> What caught my eye is that this looks like the empty hand equivalent of a knife fighting technique alleged by Mike Ruppert to be used by the "ninja students" he has sparred -- one that he defeated repeatedly by "palming" the chambered, reverse-gripped knife against the body.  Dave said that this is a strike he does from time to time as well,  one that allows for a "hidden approach" and which can indeed be used with weapons.



The feeling of that statement is that this strike is not effective. That's fine, but when you asked david and he said it is to hide a weapon. This shows he doesn't understand why he does that strike.

This is why I wish people would let people who KNOW the art make videos on the art. You want to see real Ninjutsu/Ninpo get Sensei Tanemura's Goshin jutsu videos from BAB, if you see something on there that raises a red flag, ask a qualified Dojo-Cho of genbukan for an explaination.

So overall, as I have admitted, I should have let it go. Really the whole thing although being a pet peeve of mine (made up Ninjustu) was nothing to get all worked up about. What I feel bad about is that I was not really trying to attack you in any way, maybe some things I wrotes sounded a bit harsh, I am sorry, I guess I just would have wished you went to the source Tanemura/Hatsumi instead of a fringe side effect art.

I can understand your being upset and I am sorry.  I did over react.

Kind regards,


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## arnisador (Nov 27, 2002)

Every style that gets sufficiently popular eventually loses this battle. The term "karate" is completely generic and it still frustrates me to hear talk of "Korean karate" etc. and to have people judge Okinawan karate by what they have learned seeing five year old black belts in TKD ("Korean karate"). For the FMA one sees things like "Kenpo Arnis" all over. Look at the battles over who is teaching the "real" Jeet Kune Do and who is just an imposter! You can't win, I'm afraid.


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## Phil Elmore (Nov 27, 2002)

> I was in no way hostile. You are being dramatic...



You were indeed hostile, and I am not being dramatic.  As it happens, I saved a copy of my responses to your post at e-budo.  Let's look at a few snippets of it.  (Brackets indicate my commentary.)



> ...Now I know this was a private tape given to Phil, but Phil in his need to "review things" has done so and posted it on a few boards...
> 
> [This is a mischaracterization -- the tape was sent to me specifically to be reviewed.]
> 
> ...





> ...I also was not attacking you as a person. Simply stating the truth.



You were not stating the truth;  you were stating an erroneous conclusion based on conjecture on your part, as you know absolutely nothing about me except what I've _told_ you.  It is intellectually dishonest to look at an article and say, "The author is not qualified to write this review" in an attempt to discredit the article, when in fact the only way to address the article _substantively_ is to address its _content_.  When you use that tactic you are commiting the logical fallacy of ad hominem, in which you address the _source_ of an argument rather than the argument itself.  This is, quite logically, attacking me rather than the review.



> You seem upset about my comment of your experience. Well all someone has to do is look at what you posted on your own page...



I'm not upset at all.  That's one of the reasons I post my background publicly in the first place -- because I refuse to pretend to be anything that I am not.  I see no reason not to defend the validity of something of written, however.



> I don't personally buy the argument that a person has "studied" martial arts for 10 years and has yet to achieve a black belt or teacher ranking of some sort. That is "playing" at martial arts not studying. That is my opinion Phil.



Who is asking you to "buy" it?



> Also your friend "put together" an art that you study. I find this un-impressive as well.



Who is asking for you to be impressed?



> Simple because I have little respect for modern "put together arts" by people who have not trained in a respected style long enough to understand it and achieve some recognition as a master in it. This again is my personal opinion.



Who is asking for you respect?

I ask only for honesty and reason.  If you have a problem with the review -- a review that is not even particularly critical -- you must address its _content_ to add anything meaningful to the discussion.



> ...to be honest, on another day I most likely would have just shook my head and moved on. As a matter of fact, even as I was writting it, I was aware that it was not a good idea. Why? because I knew it would turn to this. however, my response was not as venomous as you are making it out to be. I guess it's a good thing I have saved the thread!



Yes, it is a good thing -- because you can compare it to the quotes I excerpted and see that they are not edited or taken out of context.  You overreacted and did so in a hostile fashion -- one that reeked of insecurity about what others would think of "Ninpo" on the basis of a relatively insignificant review whose purpose was to evalute _one_ modern Ninjutsu school.



> First you have every right to do whatever you wish, review whatever you wish of course who am I or who is ANYONE to say otherwise!



Yet you _did_ "say otherwise," Richard.  When I tell someone, "You're not qualified to do this," I am telling them, "You have no right to do this."  Now, you certainly can feel free to say _that_, too -- but you seem to think I should not view it as hostile, nor address it.  I think my reply was entirely reasonable and more than civil, all things considered.



> Also, I have no problem with David Gibb or what he is doing at all! He may even be a fantastic Budoka! But he is not qualified to represent Ninjutsu for SURE and Ninpo.



So now _you_ are qualified to say who can represent all Ninjutsu?  Does that not seem a bit of an overreach, Richard?  As for "Ninpo," _does the review at any time have anything to say about "Ninpo?"_



> You say you never use the term Ninpo. Fair enough. But you do use Ninjutsu! The two words are related by most people as is well known, Ninpo contains Ninjutsu. In a way, Ninjutsu is even a worse choice of words seeing as it has been very rarely taught to ANYONE.



Now you're playing semantic games, Richard.  I suppose if I reviewed a tape produced by some "Combat Karate" school, I should feel obliged not to use the term "Karate" in order to avoid those Karateka who don't believe a modern "Combat Karate" school's practitioners are "qualified" to "represent" _real_ Karate?  Arnisador is completely correct and makes a very good point about this.

If you can find a quote in the review in which Dave Gibb claims to represent anything or anyone other than himself and his school, please bring it to my attention.



> Also Modern Ninjutsu to me and everyone I talked to does not sound like "made up hodge podge Ninjutsu" but current Ninjutsu. What Mr. Gibb does is a composite style, he says based about 40% on Bujinkan bujinkan is 60% Budo not Ninjutsu, so one must ask, why an art, (Mr. Gibbs art) uses the term Ninjutsu when maybe 3% if he's lucky is actual ninjutsu other than wanting a connection to the image of "ninja".



And how does my _reporting_ of that fact constitute some affront to anyone's fragile sense of self-esteem in their art?  A _review_ is not an endorsement;  it is an objective evaluation of a specific product.



> My concern with this is not based on insecurity, although please feel free to think as you wish, instead, it is based on simply being tired of all the crap that hangs on the fringes of ninjutsu/Ninpo today.



Again, how does my _reporting_ of what this particular school is do anything but show the school and the style for what it is, objectively?  On the basis of information I imparted to you, you have now been able to make conclusions about the composition of the style and Dave's approach to it.  You would not have that information had you not read the review.  _That is the purpose of articles such as these_.  They impart, honestly and objectively, information about something or someone.



> There are so many side roads, distractions and false information for sincere seekers of actual Ninpo/Ninjutsu knowledge out there. We have people who say, Ninjutsu did poorly in the UFC. But, what do they base that on? Two people from Bob Bussy's group who DON'T DO NINPO/NINJUTSU! Although they use the name...



This is that insecurity of which I spoke, Richard, plain as day.  "Why, someone might think _my_ art is not effective if they read discussion of someone else's Ninjutsu style!"



> To the average person, they don't know, if they seen that UFC, then hear of genbukan or bujinkan etc.. They connect the two which is too bad. In addition we have Ashida Kim, Ron Duncan, Carlos febres Rick tew, Frank Dux etc... All of whom advertise heavey ninjutsu/Ninpo all of whom have nothing to do with it, but to the general public, they don't know, so they will base opinions on these peoples actions and abilities.



So we should never speak of these things and these people in any way? We should not want to know what they do and how they do it?  We should respond with hostility and insecure overreaction whenever we do see these things discussed?



> The feeling of that statement is that this strike is not effective. That's fine, but when you asked david and he said it is to hide a weapon. This shows he doesn't understand why he does that strike.



So what?  To what, exactly, are you objecting?  I gave Dave Gibb the chance to resond to my criticism because it gives him the chance to defend what he's doing in the face of that criticsm, making for a more balanced and informative review.  If he then reveals that he does or does not know what he is doing, _the review has done its job_.  The reader can make this judgment individually and leaves the article more informed _about this particular school and instructor_.

If you're worried, as yo useem to be, that this is going to be extrapolated into some blanket judgment about _your_ school and _your_ training, that's really _your_ problem.



> This is why I wish people would let people who KNOW the art make videos on the art.



Who's going to "let" them?  Who'se going to judge and _stop_ anyone?



> You want to see real Ninjutsu/Ninpo get Sensei Tanemura's Goshin jutsu videos from BAB, if you see something on there that raises a red flag, ask a qualified Dojo-Cho of genbukan for an explaination.



What makes you think I would _not_ want to see "real" Ninjutsu?  If anyone within the Bujinkan or Genbukan wants to send me something to evaluate, I'd be very pleased to have the opportunity.  I reviewed Dave's tape _because he sent it_ in response to an open solicitation for materials to review.  If I do get the chance to review such material, I would give the sender the same opportunity to respond to any questions I might have as I would give to anyone else.



> So overall, as I have admitted, I should have let it go.



After reading your post, I think I understand even _less_ what it was you should have let go, Richard.  To what, specifically, do you object?  That the Bujingodai is a "modern" Ninjutsu school?  That I was critical of aspects of the tape?  That Dave Gibb didn't impress you with his explanations?  That I asked for the explanations in the first place?  That I had the audacity to do the review?



> Really the whole thing although being a pet peeve of mine (made up Ninjustu) was nothing to get all worked up about.



No, it wasn't.  Substantive feedback would have been more productive.



> What I feel bad about is that I was not really trying to attack you in any way, maybe some things I wrotes sounded a bit harsh, I am sorry, I guess I just would have wished you went to the source Tanemura/Hatsumi instead of a fringe side effect art.



My review was not intended, and was not presented, as a definitive statement about Ninjutsu in general.  As I said, I will gladly review any material from "the source" if said "source" would like to send it.  I would welcome having you do just that.



> I can understand your being upset and I am sorry. I did over react.



I wasn't upset then, Richard, and I am not upset now.  If any of my response to your post sounds a bit, well, _sharp_, this is not because I am angry, but because I believe in standing behind what I write.


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## Makoto-Dojo (Nov 27, 2002)

Like I said,

sorry. Getting invloved was poor judgement on my part.  I over reacted.

regards,


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## heretic888 (Nov 27, 2002)

> you could say ninjutsu well the Bujinkan Taijutsu is like jujitsu. 6 of the schools that bujinkan teaches is jujitsu and the other 3 is ninja schools.





> Actually, that's not the case at all. Togakure ryu is not 'jujutsu'. And there is more ninpo in the schools of the Bujinkan then the three ryuha that are Ninpo Taijutsu. The theme of this year's training is Takagi Yoshin ryu Jutaijutsu....being a Jujutsu school.





> There are only 3 Main Ninpo schools in the bujinkan system. I know Togakure Ryu isn't jujitsu its one of the ninpo schools.





> Yes, Togakure ryu is a Ninpo ryuha. However, saying that Ninpo is only contained in the three Ninpo Taijutsu ryuha of the Bujinkan is incorrect.




Hmmph. I have always found this unusual disctintion between 'ninja' and 'non-ninja' schools in the Bujinkan quite odd....... especially when you consider the fact that a good deal of the schools (Togakure-ryu, Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu, Kuki Shinden-ryu, Shinden Fudo-ryu, etc.) come from the Hakuun-ryu ninjutsu of Garyu Doshi (second jonin of Iga-ryu ninpo).




> Every style that gets sufficiently popular eventually loses this battle. The term "karate" is completely generic and it still frustrates me to hear talk of "Korean karate" etc. and to have people judge Okinawan karate by what they have learned seeing five year old black belts in TKD ("Korean karate"). For the FMA one sees things like "Kenpo Arnis" all over. Look at the battles over who is teaching the "real" Jeet Kune Do and who is just an imposter! You can't win, I'm afraid.



Yes, absolutely. I agree completely. The problem is that the more people that begin to study the art, the more likely the average practitioner's level of quality will be less.


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## Bujingodai (Nov 27, 2002)

Well, Richard has always been polite to me so I will reply to this one. i wouldn't over at E-Budo as it would have been one sided. I don't need the stress.
First off, I don't have a need for anyones approval. I am hardly one of the schools that make crazy claims.
I learned in the Kan, and yes that represents maybe my kamae and so on. I was only there for a few years and there were circumstances to my departure. And now politics keeps me away, and the love for what my teacher shows me. But let me point form my side
-I did appreciate Phils review, just didn't like where it ended up.
-as for those who chaf of UNV on E-Budo I created it to get the "losers" off E-Budo to talk somewhere else.
-The Bujingodai or Honshin Ryu to be more specific, is not my art. Though I handle the business side or interenet stuff. My teacher is in the states I spend about 8 wks a year with him currently
-The Bujingodai school happened by accident. I needed someone to continue practcing between seminars and sessions with the Kan. It just grew as I did away from my other instructors.
-I am very humbled by the term Sensei. I am just an instructor that has done some good training IMO. I get great learning out of teaching.
-I will continue what I am doing and call it Ninjutsu and practice the Ninpo aspect of it as well, what I can and what my obvious knowledge is, and I will seek more. The Name to me is what I trained in, what my teacher also calls it and what it will be called.
-I do not rep the Kans or what they do.
-I admit on my site it is a Hybrid or "composite" I like that word better.
-the strike thing Richard, OK then that was what I was taught as one reason. And the beginning of an earth strike as well. Saigan no kamae was taught to me by a Bujinkan Shidoshi. As well as the reason. But that is open for discussion. Correct me then so I can re correct my guys. 
-As for any other reasons why I may represent Bad Budo. Hmm I don't charge anything really $15 a month for supplies. I am connected with the Family and Child services here to help some of the more screwed up kids as I also am educated in psych to a degree. I relate a very family like atmosphere.
-As for the practice of Ninpo, again up to interpretation. As my own interpretation this is the largest part, Ninjutsu is but the physical. Ninpo to me is the warriorship of your life and how you live it. The alternative training such as the senses blah blah. etc etc. The mental aspect of warfare and the metaphysical side of the "feeling" of Ninjutsu. I am afraid I didn't even explain how I see it that well but my typing sucks.
-I have never reffered to myself as a Ninja, I am a warrior. And I am very proud of what I do.
-Though again this is just my interpretation and is likely all wrong to you. But then thats what makes the world go round OK


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## Bujingodai (Nov 27, 2002)

Continueing on the not being Bad Budo. Just based on what E-Budo calls it.
I have never said the style was anything but efficient. I don't claim lineage. I am not a super Soke or even a founder. Not saying its the best or you'll get chicks doing it. Not a mc dojo. The video is free and for distance people that have asked for it, actually only 2. No profit in at actually it cost me babysitting to make it time off work and mailing fees. I will never ask someone to pay for it. Why, it is only a video. 

I also have suggested on this board and E-budo if you are looking for traditional Ninpo go to the Kans. 

I wanted to re enter the Kan some time ago. I am afraid the political ******** made my mind very clear.


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## Makoto-Dojo (Nov 27, 2002)

David,

I do not agree with people using the term Ninpo or Ninjutsu unless they have either recieved Menkyo in it, or they are training in it currently, that means Tanemura Sensei or Hatsumi Sensei.

Anything else I consider Neo Ninja and a joke. This is how I feel. Now as far as you a person, I have nothing against you at all, you may be a nice guy, you may be a GREAT Budoka etc...

I just think what you train in is half baked. Your base is from Bujinkan I am assuming, and most Bujinkan people don't really know Ninpo. In My 18 years of Bujinkan I have found FEW who were any good and had any real knowledge. There are some REALLY good ones of course but they are far and few in between. 

So a system based on that experience and then changed etc.. Is.. Well... There are good reasons for everything in Ninpo, to change them, add to them etc.. Is just creating a mish mash.

I really don't want to get into this deeper. It can cause hard feelings. just me publicly stating my opinion on any neo ninja art is bound to cause hard feelings, I am sure since you are doing your art, you must like it. therefore I have just dumped on something dear to you and this will of course cause hurt feelings maybe anger etc...

Lets agree to dis agree and move on, nothing good can come of this. Again, I am sorry I said anything in the first place...

regards,


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## Makoto-Dojo (Nov 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bujingodai _
> 
> *
> I wanted to re enter the Kan some time ago. I am afraid the political ******** made my mind very clear. *



BTW there is ZERO Political BS in the Genbukan. Everything is laid out nice and clear and we TRAIN! Door is always open 

regards,


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## arnisador (Nov 27, 2002)

It might be best to have further discussion of this issue take place via PM or e-mail.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## heretic888 (Nov 27, 2002)

> BTW there is ZERO Political BS in the Genbukan. Everything is laid out nice and clear and we TRAIN! Door is always open



I could say something here, but it wouldn't be very nice and would not contribute to the discussion in any way, shape, or form. thus, i shall refrain.


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## Bujingodai (Nov 27, 2002)

I accept what you are saying politely Richard. I may even state for the record that the base in Buj, is up to interpretation. But a base nonetheless.
Now again I see your opinion on what Ninpo is and you are definatly a more secure source for that opinion. Thanks for your input on it.
Opinions will differ and that makes the world great
I stilll appreciate your way of approaching the topic. I for one have no interest in the slice and dice.
FYI there are no Gen dojo's within a 5 hrs drive from me. Otherwise I'd be back in my hometown and likely still training under my Bujinkan Sensei.
But cool nonetheless, the invitation is appreciated and considered.


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## Jay Bell (Nov 27, 2002)

*chuckle*  Richard...why is it that everytime your mouth opens, it sounds like a Genbukan commercial?


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## heretic888 (Nov 27, 2002)

:rofl:


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## Phil Elmore (Nov 27, 2002)

Well, that's one thing on which Richard and I agree.  I'm a firm believer in promoting those things you find worthwhile in life.


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## Jay Bell (Nov 27, 2002)

Phil,

You've never struck me as the type to downplay everything else to give validity to the things you find worthwhile.


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## leehoicheun (Nov 27, 2003)

I have been a martial artist and a martial scientist for over 20 years. I am also the owner of the Syracuse Wing Chun Academy . I do not want to anger anyone in my view points but I feel it has to be made........ just to have a little fun and spark some good debate.


the subject? Martial Snobery

what am I talking about? Here it goes...... martial arts/sciences have been a HUGE part of my life since I was 9 years old. I have studied extensivly in Karate, western boxing, filipino arts, kung fu and many many more. In all those years I have seen people down play other arts and argue over dumb things like "is it Ninpo or Nunpo?" Who cares!!! Why are people so fasinated with such trivial information? Here's an example:

In Wing Chun I have seen these spellings:

Wing Chun
Ving Chun
Ving Tsun
Ving Tzun
Wing Tzoon
Weng Chun
Weng cheun

and many more. The funny thing is this..... THEY ARE ALL THE SAME THING! Of course there are those Wing Chun styist who have only studied under ONE Wing Chun family who will disagree with me and to that I say..... go out there and study from every source you can and you will see that what I stated is the truth. 

Like Bruce Lee said _"Until humans grow a third leg or arm nothing you do will be any different then what has been done before. In truth, they are all the same._ 

ok, now I know someone is just waiting to rip me a new one for this, that's ok....... after hitting the post key I am going to open my academy doors and train.

My Sifu once asked me a question. He asked "what is the most boring thing about classical music?" I said to him, "Nothing that I can think of, I love classical music." He then said, "The most boring thing about classical music are the people wo over analyze it and then choose to write about it on the back of the record."...... point well taken Sifu.

Have a great day all


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 28, 2003)

Just to add to that last post. I think the most worthless thing that any one can say on the internet is ,"I'm not impressed...". First of all nobody cares what some faceless poster thinks. Sure we can piss eachother off, but as Phil suggested, lets see some substance and a little less personal attacks. I know of an Ninjitsu school in Denver that is pure Ed Parkers American Kenpo. Why they call themselves Ninja I'll never Know but I'm sure money and eighties ninja movies have somthing to do with it. There is a school a "true" ninja should ***** about. And its all perfectly legal.
Sean


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## arnisador (Nov 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *I know of an Ninjitsu school in Denver that is pure Ed Parkers American Kenpo.  *



I knew one in the 80s that was simply Goju-ryu karate.


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## Rod Coulter (Dec 21, 2003)

Good day all,

Personally from what I have experienced being in the Bujinkan over the past 16 or so years is simply the fact that yes there are some Schools who use Ninjitsu as the spelling and some that use Ninjutsu, They are the same and I would have to agree with the gentleman who posted on the Wing Chun names.. 

As far as how many schools within the Bujinkan I have known there to be 9 schools, this comes from the Takamatsu/Hatsumi Lineage.
As far as the 11-15 Dans. Hatsumi Has explained them to be partially a gift, a recognition of dedication, and yes to some extent an extension of the 10th Dan. And also reality being what it is another way to generate revenue for the Bujinkan. Which in all honesty I see nothing wrong with making money in the martial arts, so the ranking system Can be taken with a grain of salt, as I have played on the floor with 10th dans in the Budokan in Tokyo who move worse then some green belts I have trained with in Calgary, So point here I guess would be it is all very relative to the individual and when they got the rank.

As far as the listings of the 9 Schools, I will dig out my manuals and post here further if there is any interest in this information.

and that's my $.02 worth.


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