# You Afraid to Die: Part II (a supplemental question)



## Jenna (Jun 5, 2006)

Q: *Is death a gateway or is it a dead end full stop*?

Hello to all my supertuff MT friends  I hope your air is beautifully fresh to breathe today and well.... this is supplemental to a previous thread.. sort of and I truly hope for asking this I do not sound like I just fell off the morose coach to melancholy state, ha! 




If you believe death is a gateway....What and where is it a gateway to and what do you think will remain of "you" in that place..... Your memories? physical form? Will any xperiences persist?


​If you believe death is a dead end....Have you discerned a purpose for your being here? And if not how have you reconciled a finite existence with a lack ofthis discernment?  Yes thatis just a very very little question I am aware 


​Personally I am dropped deep into the latter where some days Isee the point of me clear like big graffiti sprayed all over gable walls and other days I feel as if Ihave been blinded to what I thought I had seen and return to seeking meaning in the stupidist places. And today? Well maybe today is a Steveland Judkins day, ha! ... I may be blinded to everything but I am just gonna keep on playing my music while I got some melody left in me....

Thank you all for humouring me and I hope my even more questions are not becoming tiresome I ask sincerely because I am seeking to seed some thoughts in my mind :asian: 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## terryl965 (Jun 5, 2006)

I believe it is a gateway to the kingdom of GOD, our soul will be in heaven and are memorys will only be the purest of them all, no sorry, no pain and differently no more red die # 5.
Terry


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## Jenna (Jun 5, 2006)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> I believe it is a gateway to the kingdom of GOD, our soul will be in heaven and are memorys will only be the purest of them all, no sorry, no pain and differently no more red die # 5.
> Terry


Hey Terry  memories yes that I can understand and will you remember all your TKD ??  Not that I think you would have much use for it up there but just wondering.... you could be like God's doorman or something if he needed a little extra muscle with troublemakers, LOL 

btw what is red die #5 are you telling me you are colouring your hair??? ha!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## mantis (Jun 5, 2006)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> I believe it is a gateway to the kingdom of GOD, our soul will be in heaven and are memorys will only be the purest of them all, no sorry, no pain and differently no more red die # 5.
> Terry


doesnt this life belong to that kingdom as well?


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jun 5, 2006)

I answered this elsewhere; but, I think it bears repeating.  I deeply and honestly feel that my experiences will transcend this world and contribute to a greater consciousness.  What it is, I cannot really say.  I align myself with christianity; but, all religion is an attempt to put a face on a faceless thing.

I do not feel that 'I' will continue to exist, as such.  I will become part of a greater 'I'.

Call me a heretic, I don't care 

Btw, Jenna, love the Gabriel av.  Sweet movie!


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## rutherford (Jun 5, 2006)

My belief system is much like OnlyAnEgg, only I have a slightly different filter through which I prefer to see existence, rather than his Christian perspective.


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## heretic888 (Jun 5, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I answered this elsewhere; but, I think it bears repeating. I deeply and honestly feel that my experiences will transcend this world and contribute to a greater consciousness. What it is, I cannot really say. I align myself with christianity; but, all religion is an attempt to put a face on a faceless thing.
> 
> I do not feel that 'I' will continue to exist, as such. I will become part of a greater 'I'.
> 
> Call me a heretic, I don't care



As my views are much the same, I guess I'm a heretic, too. . .

Of course, that shouldn't come as any surprise. 

I would like to add the qualification, though, that from an "ultimate" sense of things, there is no "I" that can die. It's not that the "I" ceases to exist, it's simply that there was no "I" there in the first place.

Now, from a "relative" sense of things, the self definitely has existence --- but the problem is that this existence is conditional, finite, and dependent in nature. . . 

Somebody else mentioned that their "memories" would go on existing in some future form, but this is something of wishful thinking as I could cause trauma to the hippocampal formation in the back of your skull and most (if not all) of your memories would simply vanish. When the hippocampus decomposes along with the rest of your body, there go all your memoris, too.

That is because your "memories", like all the other finite qualities of the egoic self, are dependent on something else for their existence. Once that "something else" is no longer there, there goes your finite qualities. For example, you'd be surprised how much of your "personality" is influenced by things like hormones, the language you speak, or even the social relationships you have. Those are all gone when your body dies.

If there is some "I" that goes on existing after bodily death, it sure ain't the "I" you identify with when you're alive. It's an entirely different entity.

Of course, as before, all of this is somewhat moot as in the "ultimate" sense, only Unity exists. In fact, all existence is nothing but a manifestation of Unity.

Personally, I think the conception of an "afterlife" is just a symbolic allegory developed by the world's religious traditions to give the less-than-enlightened believers something to live up to and look forward to. The mystics generally realize that "heaven" is within, not "out there". Of course, then there's guys like me who definitely ain't enlightened but have still figured out "heaven" is just an allegorical symbolism. Kind of puts you in a bind.

Those are my thoughts, anyway.

Laterz.


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## Jenna (Jun 5, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I answered this elsewhere; but, I think it bears repeating. I deeply and honestly feel that my experiences will transcend this world and contribute to a greater consciousness. What it is, I cannot really say. I align myself with christianity; but, all religion is an attempt to put a face on a faceless thing.
> 
> I do not feel that 'I' will continue to exist, as such. I will become part of a greater 'I'.
> 
> ...


Hey my nutritious friend  yes you did answer this before and thank you for it and it certainly is worth repeating and I asked this before and I will ask again because I like to ask questions if I am allowed and I will ask you if your "I" ceases to exist then will you not be sad for that "I am" that is currently here roaming in the gloaming and calling himself Jim?

Thank you and I am glad you are liking my beautifully androgynous Gabe well I could think of no more KA angel to look out for me and for all my friends here 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Jenna (Jun 5, 2006)

rutherford said:
			
		

> My belief system is much like OnlyAnEgg, only I have a slightly different filter through which I prefer to see existence, rather than his Christian perspective.


Hello Jason-san  and will you tell me please which filter you are viewing through? And this means you are not heading for a terminal but instead a junction? And then what will become of you when the tracks are switched for the final time? 

Thank you 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Jenna (Jun 5, 2006)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> As my views are much the same, I guess I'm a heretic, too. . .
> 
> Of course, that shouldn't come as any surprise.
> 
> ...


Hey there heretic888  and you must explain to me the significance of the 888 to me this is maybe kabbalistic and something that I am certainly ignorant and not aware of the meaning of thank you

And you say there is no "I" which is maybe a question for another day and a very long day I think, ha! and even after reading Reasons and Persons I am still none the wiser to THAT question....  But I will ask in light of that then if there is no "I" and this is just a collection of experiences in the one repository then can I ask what is the point of anyone getting right with God in whichever manifestation you believe. Because if "you" are not actually going to be the person surviving across the threashold of death then why bother pleasing anyone but yourself? I mean what do you care for THAT person that will be taken up (or down) and away because that will not be you? Why would you care if they are saved in grace or not?

Sorry for my limited language at expressing this notion 

Oh, can I also ask what is your PERSONAL standing with this question? 

Thank you,
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jun 5, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> ...I will ask you if your "I" ceases to exist then will you not be sad for that "I am" that is currently here roaming in the gloaming and calling himself Jim?
> 
> Thank you and I am glad you are liking my beautifully androgynous Gabe well I could think of no more KA angel to look out for me and for all my friends here
> 
> ...


 
I don't think I will have any awareness of not being that "I am' you speak of.  Instead of this discreet unit of life, I will be part of the larger life that permeates all living things.  I think I may like that better 

And, Gabriel was a bit creepy to me.  I didn't trust her from the get-go.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jun 5, 2006)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Somebody else mentioned that their "memories" would go on existing in some future form, but this is something of wishful thinking as I could cause trauma to the hippocampal formation in the back of your skull and most (if not all) of your memories would simply vanish. When the hippocampus decomposes along with the rest of your body, there go all your memoris, too.
> 
> That is because your "memories", like all the other finite qualities of the egoic self, are dependent on something else for their existence. Once that "something else" is no longer there, there goes your finite qualities. For example, you'd be surprised how much of your "personality" is influenced by things like hormones, the language you speak, or even the social relationships you have. Those are all gone when your body dies.


 
1) I love to read Heretic's posts.

B) I disagree with the thrust of your statement quoted above.  It's true that my personally stored memories could easily be erased with a well-placed swat; it doesn't erase the events that occurred outside causing the engrams to be placed initially.  I wonder if the events of our lives resonate.  Is there any reason to believe that such echoes are not absorbed somewhere, collecting themselves, as it were?


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## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2006)

I dunno.  Maybe we move into another life, similar to what we have here but in some other "world" or something.  Maybe we are a little wiser, remembering the lessons from this life, maybe not.  

Maybe we just come back into a new life here in this world.  

Either way, maybe it's cyclical and doesn't ever really end, but is rather a series of lifetimes, one after another.  

I'm not sure I buy the notion of going to Heaven or Hell, eternity in paradise or agony, and it's sort of all over at that point.  If there is a God, I don't think he would pass ultimate judgement on you based on one lifetime.  I think it's too easy to wallow around and get it wrong thru no fault of your own, and I don't think a loving God would judge someone based one go around.

Whatever it is, we will never really know until our time comes.  Either way, I am optimistic!


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## Martial Tucker (Jun 5, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> 1) I love to read Heretic's posts.
> 
> B) I disagree with the thrust of your statement quoted above.  It's true that my personally stored memories could easily be erased with a well-placed swat; it doesn't erase the events that occurred outside causing the engrams to be placed initially.  I wonder if the events of our lives resonate.  Is there any reason to believe that such echoes are not absorbed somewhere, collecting themselves, as it were?



I agree with both 1) and B).

I believe events of our lives resonate in the process of karma, and as for the "echoes" collecting themselves, do a Google or Wikipedia search on 
"akashic records"......interesting stuff to think about.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2006)

By the way Jenna, I too used to Kick *** and Take Names, but then I thought to myself: What do I care about the names?

Life got less complicated then.


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## mantis (Jun 5, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I dunno. Maybe we move into another life, similar to what we have here but in some other "world" or something. Maybe we are a little wiser, remembering the lessons from this life, maybe not.
> 
> Maybe we just come back into a new life here in this world.
> 
> ...


so how do you know this is not your 10th time and everytime you dont do too well either?


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## Jenna (Jun 5, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I don't think I will have any awareness of not being that "I am' you speak of. Instead of this discreet unit of life, I will be part of the larger life that permeates all living things. I think I may like that better
> 
> And, Gabriel was a bit creepy to me. I didn't trust her from the get-go.



Hey Jim  yes but if you are part of a greater "I" currently in your family your society your country and this planet then it will obviously differ for you after death but how do you think it will differ?  Currently you are a discrete unit within a bigger group but how do you see yourself being enjoined to the greater "I" afterwards? Ya know what I cannot get out of my head now... the Borg Collective, ha! Seriously is what you are thinking any way comparable I mean same principle but with heavenly intentions?

Thank you 

And yeah you may be creepy if you were supposed to be a guy but looked a beautiful girl anyway I will not hear that from you Jim my angel is perfect and I can do with all the help right now

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2006)

mantis said:
			
		

> so how do you know this is not your 10th time and everytime you dont do too well either?


 
Exactly!


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jun 5, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Jim  yes but if you are part of a greater "I" currently in your family your society your country and this planet then it will obviously differ for you after death but how do you think it will differ? Currently you are a discrete unit within a bigger group but how do you see yourself being enjoined to the greater "I" afterwards? Ya know what I cannot get out of my head now... the Borg Collective, ha! Seriously is what you are thinking any way comparable I mean same principle but with heavenly intentions?
> 
> Thank you
> 
> ...


 
I think it would akin to being in the arms of the one you love deep and true.  You are individuals, yes; but, the two are a unit, as well.  That sort of melding, as it were, I suppose.  Hmmm...borg, eh?  Maybe a close analogy, actually.  But, rather than a hive-mind community, I believe I would simply return to my source and become a part of it.

Hats off to Gabriel, then.  I meant no offence.


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## Martial Tucker (Jun 5, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Exactly!



As an "aside", a couple of really interesting books on this topic:

"Messages from the Masters"  by Brian Weiss
"Beyond the Broken Gate"  by Charles Graybar


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## Jenna (Jun 5, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I dunno. Maybe we move into another life, similar to what we have here but in some other "world" or something. Maybe we are a little wiser, remembering the lessons from this life, maybe not.
> 
> Maybe we just come back into a new life here in this world.
> 
> ...


 
Hey Michael  wow thanks for this a lot I would maybe like to believe myself and the idea of reincarnation is appealing I think moreso though if it were possible to download the previous memories

Actually I am not sure I believe memories do reside as just a series of synaptic connections in our heads but besides anecdotal evidence I plainly have no proof otherwise but then this is what a belief is maybe

God probably wouldn't judge you on one lifetime unless he was maybe that way inclined ya know like your boss at work - "I could care less bout your potential this is a shoddy job get your things packed youre leaving,"

Oh well I hope all is good in the wonderful SF today!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Jenna (Jun 5, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Exactly!


Yep, there are plenty of kooky shows on SciFi channel bout young children with the oddest "memories" of people and places they have never known or been to. I love these weird anomalies that do make me think on my theories of collective consciousness (as Jim said)

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Actually I am not sure I believe memories do reside as just a series of synaptic connections in our heads but besides anecdotal evidence I plainly have no proof otherwise but then this is what a belief is maybe
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
I keep trying to bring up proof of this thru old memories from past lifetimes, but so far have had no success.  This tells me that one of three things could be true: 1)  I am completely wrong about this idea;  2) Memories don't carry over from one lifetime to the next;  3) This is my first go-around so I don't have any prior lifetimes to remember.

Sometimes, when I am just daydreaming away, I can almost convince myself that I remember events prior to my life.  I almost believe, sometimes, that I know what it is like to die, almost like I remember it.


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## mantis (Jun 5, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I keep trying to bring up proof of this thru old memories from past lifetimes, but so far have had no success. This tells me that one of three things could be true: 1) I am completely wrong about this idea; 2) Memories don't carry over from one lifetime to the next; 3) This is my first go-around so I don't have any prior lifetimes to remember.
> 
> Sometimes, when I am just daydreaming away, I can almost convince myself that I remember events prior to my life. I almost believe, sometimes, that I know what it is like to die, almost like I remember it.


this is called 'imagination' not memory.
anyway, what's interesting is you are willing 'risk' what happens after your life based on things you are not too sure about.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2006)

mantis said:
			
		

> this is called 'imagination' not memory.
> 
> 
> anyway, what's interesting is you are willing 'risk' what happens after your life based on things you are not too sure about.


 
Of course, but it's fun.

We have no choice but to die and go to the next stage, whatever it may be, without being too sure about what is next.  Those with strong religious convictions often feel they are sure, but we have never had any solid proof of it.  They may be correct, but we just don't know.  Live life as best as you can and accept the next when it comes because we have no choice.


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## mantis (Jun 5, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Of course, but it's fun.
> 
> We have no choice but to die and go to the next stage, whatever it may be, without being too sure about what is next. Those with strong religious convictions often feel they are sure, but we have never had any solid proof of it. They may be correct, but we just don't know. Live life as best as you can and accept the next when it comes because we have no choice.


that could be pretty serious though.  because if they are correct for real then it would be too late!


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## Jenna (Jun 5, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I think it would akin to being in the arms of the one you love deep and true. You are individuals, yes; but, the two are a unit, as well. That sort of melding, as it were, I suppose. Hmmm...borg, eh? Maybe a close analogy, actually. But, rather than a hive-mind community, I believe I would simply return to my source and become a part of it.
> 
> Hats off to Gabriel, then. I meant no offence.


Hey Jim 
Yes I like that analogy to true love and has me envious of you also ha!

But would "melding" -- and lord help me I am thinking Spock now -- but would that not be confusing to the limited consciousness we have now all of a sudden going from having one voice in our mind to having our "mind" filled with an eternities' worth of souls and memories and experiences? That would be singularly impossibly to handle would it not?

Thank you and oh my Gabe is looking out for you since you are a good guy so fear not for these things! 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Makalakumu (Jun 5, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Q: *Is death a gateway or is it a dead end full stop*?
> 
> Hello to all my supertuff MT friends  I hope your air is beautifully fresh to breathe today and well.... this is supplemental to a previous thread.. sort of and I truly hope for asking this I do not sound like I just fell off the morose coach to melancholy state, ha!
> 
> ...


 
I posted this in the other thread, but it answers the question here...



			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I do not believe in God. I do not believe in Heaven or Hell or Souls. I think that when we die our consciousness melts into disorder. The energy that enervated my being is conserved and transformed into other forms to be used by other life forms in the physical web. It is not taken and preserved outside of our physical universe and it no longer contains any information about me.
> 
> When I die, I will be gone...forever. Entropy will take the unique circumstance that is me and undo it. As it will undo every single thing that I do in this universe, from my genetic line, to anything I leave behind, Time will erase everything.
> 
> With that in mind, one can see that I am in no hurry to die. Every single conscious moment is unique and precious and wasting a single one of this is utter foolishness. Heaven needs to happen in the "here and now" or it will never happen at all, IMO.


 
When one really comes to grasp the scale of our our universe, the sheer size of it, coupled with the "infinite" posibilities, our lives begin to resemble dust motes in a hurricane.  We are utterly insignificant and impotent on this scale...in the larger frame.  

Our planet is like a pebble thrown into a vast, empty, and cold sea.  The sole inspiration for all life and religion in this flyspeck space we call our solar system (Sol), will flicker and die, erasing all trace that the fragile slime that coated its gravity caught pepple.  Insurmountable time will crush our little realities into nothingness.  

In the meantime, other stars will die and others will be born.  Creative impulses will flower and whither away.  Until even the great spinning of our galaxy ceases and then old stars that comprise its core begin to wink out one by one.  Our galaxy is already well on its way to that end.  In our time, star systems hang off the galactic tree like rotted fruit.  Most of the planets are in a stage of dying.

In the end, everything will become nothing.  Even protons decay...


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## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2006)

mantis said:
			
		

> that could be pretty serious though. because if they are correct for real then it would be too late!


 
Where is the danger?  We have a moral obligation to live a good life, respect and love our fellow inhabitants on the planet whether they are human, animal, plant, etc., and try to be good stewards of the planet and its resources.  Understand and accept the fact that we are prone to failures and mistakes, it is part of our nature, but we need to do the best we can regardless.  That is what is really important, not outward signs of worship and such.  If there is a God, and a Heaven and hell, then I believe this is enough, it is what he really wants from us.  It's really the same path, whether you call it "religion", or not.  The trappings are different, that is all.


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## heretic888 (Jun 5, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey there heretic888  and you must explain to me the significance of the 888 to me this is maybe kabbalistic and something that I am certainly ignorant and not aware of the meaning of thank you



It's a pun based on Greek gematria.



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> But I will ask in light of that then if there is no "I" and this is just a collection of experiences in the one repository then can I ask what is the point of anyone getting right with God in whichever manifestation you believe. Because if "you" are not actually going to be the person surviving across the threashold of death then why bother pleasing anyone but yourself? I mean what do you care for THAT person that will be taken up (or down) and away because that will not be you? Why would you care if they are saved in grace or not?



Because the descriptions you gave are, at best, allegories or analogies for teaching spiritual truths. At worst, misguided anthropomorphisms that have no basis whatsoever in reality.



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> Oh, can I also ask what is your PERSONAL standing with this question?



I believe I already answered that.

Laterz.


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## heretic888 (Jun 5, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I love to read Heretic's posts.


 
I will choose to take that as a compliment. 



			
				OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I disagree with the thrust of your statement quoted above. It's true that my personally stored memories could easily be erased with a well-placed swat; it doesn't erase the events that occurred outside causing the engrams to be placed initially.



Even if that's true, they're not _your_ memories so that doesn't contradict anything I said in my first post. 

When your hippocampus goes, so do your memories. Neurologists see this all the time with various types of amnesiacs.



			
				OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I wonder if the events of our lives resonate. Is there any reason to believe that such echoes are not absorbed somewhere, collecting themselves, as it were?



The closest equivalent to what you're talking about in the religious literature is the alaya-vijnana of the Yogacara school of Buddhism. According to Dr. Rahula, it:

". . . represents the deepest, finest and subtlest aspect or layer of the Aggregate of Consciousness. It contains all the traces or impressions of the past actions and all good and bad future potentialities."

A Wikipedia article on this can be found here.

Laterz.


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## heretic888 (Jun 5, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> I believe events of our lives resonate in the process of karma, and as for the "echoes" collecting themselves, do a Google or Wikipedia search on "akashic records"......interesting stuff to think about.


 
From the Wikipedia article on Akashic Records:

"Despite claims that the Akashic Records have been used by mystics throughout history, the term itself, along with the concept of an aetheric library, originated with the 19th century movement of Theosophy. Skeptics suggest that the concept of Akashic Records has been attributed indiscriminately and inappropriately to a wide range of historical religious figures and movements.

The theory has also been rejected by the scientific community, due to a lack of any independently verifiable evidence."

Theosophy and New Age religion, eh? Thanks but no thanks.

In all honesty, the concept (like Carl Jung's collective unconscious) sounds like a clumsy perversion of Yogacara's alaya-vijnana.

Laterz.


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## pstarr (Jun 5, 2006)

I'm with Terry on this one-


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jun 5, 2006)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> I will choose to take that as a compliment.


 
Meant as a compliment.





			
				heretic888 said:
			
		

> Even if that's true, they're not _your_ memories so that doesn't contradict anything I said in my first post.
> 
> When your hippocampus goes, so do your memories. Neurologists see this all the time with various types of amnesiacs.


 
Point taken.




> The closest equivalent to what you're talking about in the religious literature is the alaya-vijnana of the Yogacara school of Buddhism. According to Dr. Rahula, it:
> 
> ". . . represents the deepest, finest and subtlest aspect or layer of the Aggregate of Consciousness. It contains all the traces or impressions of the past actions and all good and bad future potentialities."
> 
> ...


 
Reading that as soon as I hit 'post'.


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## Ceicei (Jun 5, 2006)

Alright, I'll bite....

I believe when I die, my physical body will undergo the decaying process and my spirit will continue to live and still retain my memories.  At some point, I will resurrect to be the same person that I am.  My definition of the resurrection means my physical body will eventually be restored into a much better living immortal condition and join with my spirit (as a part of the resurrection).  I will look basically the same as I do, but without the physical problems that exist with my current life.  That is why I need to live my life the best I can, take care of what I have (my physical body), and try to create the best memories as well, because that is what I will "take with me".  I believe that to be true of every single person and creature.  As such, I need to relate as well as I can with the people around me. This is basically my view.

I recognize people view life and death in their own way and their opinions will differ from mine.

- Ceicei


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## elder999 (Jun 5, 2006)

The first real job I ever had was in 1976, after graduation from high school and college-because Im the victim of a classical education, and because I spent many of my early years sick in bed, studying and getting ahead of my classmates, I got quite far ahead in school, and managed to graduate high school concurrent with earning my first bachelors degree. I was hired to teach at The Stony Brook School, a private Catholic High school in Stony Brook, N.Y., on Long Island. I taught Religion and History. It was kind of fun teaching kids that were my age or older, but also really difficult at times. I moved into my first apartment; it was directly on the beach, in Rocky Point, costing the princely sum of $120 a month. Another teacher and I became the best of friends. Her name was Diane Parker, and she taught 10th grade English. She was six years older than I, so I often teased her by calling her one of my oldest friends. We remained close friends until July of last year, when, just days after her birthday, she died. I called her for her birthday. We had a wonderful visit over the phone, and she sounded well, so full of energy and life. We didnt talk too much of the cancer that had been consuming her body for almost ten years. She told me that she couldnt get around anymore, not even using her walker. She used to do hospice work, sitting with people who were dying, as she knew herself to be, as well. 

I remember that not too long ago, she told me that she was one of the lucky ones. How so? I asked. She replied, Well, even though I want to live, and I enjoy every day, I know that Im dying. It makes every day sweeter. And Jeff, as youve told me so many times, I know that I am not this body. I am a soul. Even though this body is dying, the Me inside of this body is watching it all happen. That _Me_ will not die. Youre lucky because you faced this knowledge at an early age, and continue to live as though youll die tomorrow. Im not sure what will happen when I leave this body, but I know I will continue to live in some way. Her courage humbled me. Her deep spirituality encouraged me. 

When we worked together, we loved going over to Manhattan. Stonybrook is only about 60 miles away from The City. Diane loved going to Chumleys in the Village for drinks , and was surprised that, while Id gotten a fake I.D. when I was 14, I was rarely carded. Sometimes, Id drag her over to the Buddhist temple on East 30th. She never shared my fascination with chanting mantras, Asian philosophy, or Native American spirituality, but being a good sport, shed support me by going along. Through the years, it always surprised her that I didnt outgrow all that. Most of my friends thought I was just going through what they called a phase. She was very interested in knowing more about God, though the Asian expression wasnt her thing. Still, something she heard at the temple stuck with her, namely _You are not this body._

We used to go sit beside the Long Island Sound and talk for hours about reincarnation, about where the soul goes between births, about Jesus, Krishna, and Buddha, about school, about difficult family relationships, and about life in general. Diane was one of the first women I ever told that I loved-and, yes, the first _woman_ that I ever slept with. I wrote her a love letter, once. Looking back from today, I am amazed by what an extraordinary person she was. She truly loved me because of who I was, not for what she needed me to be or wanted me to be. Many years later, she told me that my letter was one of her most treasured possessions, and that she reread it regularly. We were both natives of New York, and both loved being New Yorkers. We truly loved and appreciated our cultures, but at the same time we werent blind to the dark sides of our heritages. In later years we discussed why I had to leave. She stayed, because she felt her roots very strongly. She also absolved me for deserting the East, because she understood why I couldnt stay. We both talked so much about God and philosophy, but at the same time recognized that the one of the heaviest burdens on our culture was put there by the fundamentalist Protestants, and the P.C. crowd. Over the years, Ive discovered that the oppressive atmosphere created by both types of fundamentalists: the P.C. crowd in New York, and the religious right elsewhere-is a dangerous topic to discuss. There were times when we had to look over our shoulders, or behind us to make sure we werent being overheard. What a way to live! Yet, if you could see the ocean or sound, or the Hudson Valley where I grew up, and all of New York's forests-along with the opera, and pizza- you would fall in love with it. Even though Ive been gone for years, I miss it all very much. 

Before she got too ill to travel, Diane came to New Mexico and stayed with us for a week, a final visit. She absolutely adored Rita, and so enjoyed asking her, How do you put up with Jeff? I had a lot of fun teasing her, as well. We took a road trip to White Sands. It was in the Fall, there was snow on Sierra Blanca, and you could see for miles. The panorama of desert, mountains, and blue sky was breath-taking. We sat in one of the shelters inside the dunes and had a long visit. She talked about her death. She told me, Im not afraid to die. Do you know why? I shook my head, signifying a No. Because Ive been here before. Ive lived in New Mexico, and I knew you then in that lifetime. It was hundreds of years ago, and I died. You died. But, here we are, again. We really dont die, do we? I told her that there were many things I wasnt sure of, but one thing I knew. *We are not these bodies.* While we were sitting there, a black airplane flew over, one of those stealth jobs that looks like a triangle. Diane looked very sad, and she told me, Jeff, I wont be here when it happens, but you will be. Terrible times will come, and you will have to be very brave and cautious. I asked her what she meant, and she shook her head and said, What? I asked her to explain what she meant. She acted as though she had no memory of saying those words to me. We never spoke of it again. Im used to living with the idea of spirits, prophecies, and visions, but it spooked her. I didnt want to scare her by discussing it further. Besides, I already knew. 

The last time we spoke, just before her birthday, I told her, You know Diane, youre still one of my very oldest friends. She laughed. She told me that her husband Larry was cooking gumbo, but she didnt think shed be able to have any. She told me about a new kitten she had, how cute and sweet it was-for once, I didnt tell her to put it in the dryer with a brick. She also told me that she had seen her doctor, and told him she wasnt going to take any more chemo. She was very brave at the end. Larry told me that her breathing became shallow, so he took her to the emergency room. She was admitted, and taken to her room. Diane told Larry that she was tired, and wanted to sleep. She closed her eyes, went to sleep, and was gone.

I have my faith, my spiritual beliefs. I _know_ that Diane has gone on to somewhere and something else, other than this place, and it may be better, but I miss my friend. I think of her whenever I hear a song by Elton John. She especially loved his Crocodile Rock. I cant stand him, but it seems I hear it on the radio all the time. Diane, thanks for being my friend. Thanks for accepting my search for faces of God other than Jesus, and for listening to my endless quotes from the Avatamsaka Sutra I will miss you, dear friend. Have fun surfing the universe. 

And thatnk, _you_, Jenna, for asking what I tend to think of as *the* question, when I think about it at all. People rarely, as Ive said elsewhere, think of themselves as dying, or their  view of life after death. Or life and death. Most dontever think about dying, and some are well in the biological/material/atheist camp that _knows_ that theres nothing after this life, and some are looking forward to 70 virgins in paradise? For myself, I know that I will become one with the great mystery-though I try not to think too much about what that means


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## Carol (Jun 5, 2006)

I see it two ways.

My scriptures that death results in either reincarnation, or a merging with the Holy Spirit...or to quote Heretic:  Unity.  (Unity is preferred over a rebirth)

As far as what I actually believe...well...assuming for a moment that I did everything right...

I don't know what will happen.  Maybe there is an afterlife of unity.  Maybe there isn't and death is just a quiet cessation.  

I find peace in both concepts :asian:


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## pstarr (Jun 5, 2006)

I just want to thank Elder for sharing his story.  It truly touched my heart.  I watched my younger sister go in the same way.  Such a gentle and loving soul; she had no fear of "passing over."  

     I also watched my eight-year old son as he passed over.  And I knew...I can't say exactly how or why, but I know.

     We are not these bodies.  We are forever.


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## monkey (Jun 6, 2006)

What if when we do die its more like a twilight zone ep.we keep looping till all agree on some type of peace or end?


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## Jenna (Jun 6, 2006)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Alright, I'll bite....
> 
> I believe when I die, my physical body will undergo the decaying process and my spirit will continue to live and still retain my memories. At some point, I will resurrect to be the same person that I am. My definition of the resurrection means my physical body will eventually be restored into a much better living immortal condition and join with my spirit (as a part of the resurrection). I will look basically the same as I do, but without the physical problems that exist with my current life. That is why I need to live my life the best I can, take care of what I have (my physical body), and try to create the best memories as well, because that is what I will "take with me". I believe that to be true of every single person and creature. As such, I need to relate as well as I can with the people around me. This is basically my view.
> 
> ...


Hey Ceicei my friend  Wow this is a thoughful view that I am glad for you to have a faith in and can I ask based upon this which version of "you" will you be resurrected to? You as a young person or teenager or as you are now? Or something else? Thank you 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Jenna (Jun 6, 2006)

elder999 said:
			
		

> I have my faith, my spiritual beliefs. I know that Diane has gone on to somewhere and something else, other than this place, and it may be better, but I miss my friend. I think of her whenever I hear a song by Elton John. She especially loved his Crocodile Rock. I cant stand him, but it seems I hear it on the radio all the time. Diane, thanks for being my friend. Thanks for accepting my search for faces of God other than Jesus, and for listening to my endless quotes from the Avatamsaka Sutra I will miss you, dear friend. Have fun surfing the universe.


Hey there my cave sorcerer and wiser friend  thank you SO much for sharing this and this paragraph above is wonderful truly you have the ability to step back and take a wider view which is a great thing and yes to say we are not our bodies is an uplifting way to think especially when the body is not the vehicle we may have wanted it to be ideally and your stories are sad but show that inspiration can even rise out from dejection thank you!  

And I also watched and nursed friend who I cared for more than anything and was my own age die from cancer not so very long ago and it took a hold of him extremely quickly and shook the life from him and he was an incredibly fit and healthy guy and it was exactly BECAUSE of his age and level of fitness we had explained to us that the disease spread so quickly and I can hardly believe we were told by his consultant that it would have been better for him if he was older or unfit or unhealthy to slow the cancer and what sort of thing is this? But I only mention because we aspire to the healthy body when here was the case of physical vigour which expedited a more painful death and I will say I do fear dying greatly because of what I saw on his face and the yearning and a hundred thousand words in the tight squeeze of his hand  and the ricktus of muscles in him even through all the morphine as he ground his teeth and juddered to a complete halt and I was not inspired that day that dying was a wonderful and serene thing but just a haunting horrible pointless and painful mess which casts a mist of sadness that penetrates through to the marrow of everyone around

I am sorry for being morose but I am glad for words such as yours which point to another truth and viewpoint and this is the one I would wish someday to believe which is to say death has a point. And I think you are correct people are not keen to consider their demise which is of course understandable but sometimes I think it is useful to get a perspective on what is current and which we often take for granted wasting time and procrastinating.

Thank you for your kind words and inspiring stories 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Jenna (Jun 6, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> I see it two ways.
> 
> My scriptures that death results in either reincarnation, or a merging with the Holy Spirit...or to quote Heretic: Unity. (Unity is preferred over a rebirth)
> 
> ...


Hey Carol my friend  thank you for this and do both of these coins have "tails" sides? What happens if we assume you did NOT do "everything right" is this situation listedwithin your system of beliefs? and what happens where death is NOT a "quiet cessation" but something not so serene and Hollywood? what of any person looking to that potential end what hope for them?

Thank you 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Jenna (Jun 6, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> I just want to thank Elder for sharing his story. It truly touched my heart. I watched my younger sister go in the same way. Such a gentle and loving soul; she had no fear of "passing over."
> 
> I also watched my eight-year old son as he passed over. And I knew...I can't say exactly how or why, but I know.
> 
> We are not these bodies. We are forever.


Phillip  thank you SO much for sharing this as you have done previously and your story is painfully poignant and I wonder how your wonderful little boy's passing tempered or bolstered your view on what happens beyond what we see?

I cannot ever know your pain but I have lost one close to me and I see you were able to force some solace out of that terrible situation was there a time afterwards when that philosophical solace forsook you?

Thank you I hope this is not too personal to ask but I understand if it is

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Carol (Jun 6, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Carol my friend  thank you for this and do both of these coins have "tails" sides? What happens if we assume you did NOT do "everything right" is this situation listedwithin your system of beliefs? and what happens where death is NOT a "quiet cessation" but something not so serene and Hollywood? what of any person looking to that potential end what hope for them?
> 
> Thank you
> 
> ...


 
Well...if I don't do everything right, then the cycle of births and deaths starts over again and I get reincarnated as...something.  Don't know what.

As far as whether death is not a quiet cessation, I guess that was my way of saying that death means...nothing.  That there is no soul or afterlife just...nothing.   Nothingness...is not something that I fear, to be honest.  

As far as whether it is neither...well...I honestly don't know.  That is something I'm having a very difficult time picturing.  

What hope for someone of a different potential end?

Personally, my thoughts are for one to find a path where one is truly at peace...whether that path is religious, agnostic, or even atheistic.  By truly at peace, I mean so content that one is not only at peace by walking that path, but also at peace by understanding that there are others that walk different paths.   

When that peace is achieved, one finds that there is nothing at all to fear.


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## pstarr (Jun 6, 2006)

Dearest Jenna-

     When my son died, I felt every ounce of strength gush out of me and I was empty.  Still, there was something within me that told me, "God does all things well" and I knew that it was true.

     It wasn't God's fault that it happened.  This is an imperfect world.  We've made it so and we can't blame what we've "created" on God-

     Even so, I went through a period of railing against God.  At the cemetery I would scream at him and tell him how much I hurt...that it wasn't fair because he_ knows_ and I have to get by on faith.

    It lasted about three or four months and then one day I realized that it wasn't His fault.  We live in an imperfect world.  As I hurt, He hurt.  And when I cried at he gravestone He was there with me.

     He brought me back.  

     Then one day, my daughter (who is five years older than my boy) was in her room with the windows shut.  She felt a slight breeze and a kiss on the cheek - just like the ones her brother, Chris, used to give her.   But there was no one in the room...no one that she could see.  And she knew that he was okay and that he'll be waiting for each of us when our time comes.


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## Jenna (Jun 6, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> Dearest Jenna-
> 
> When my son died, I felt every ounce of strength gush out of me and I was empty. Still, there was something within me that told me, "God does all things well" and I knew that it was true.
> 
> ...


Phillip  thank you forever for sharing this and I will say that you have genuinely shared and I am moved away to tears at hearing your anguish and thinking of your beautiful boy your little Chris and I could tell you many stories of what your daughter has experienced but since you KNOW this to be true in your heart I will not but only say that we as adults are metaphorically blind because we strain our eyes against the overwhelming brightness of the sun where children see everything clearly because they are open to the ideas and unafraid of the daylight

And I would ask something rhetorically so you are not coerced to reply but I wonder when you daydream and let your thoughts go and you envision your gorgeous little boy I wonder how you see him today....

Thank you for sharing you have given so much in doing 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## pstarr (Jun 6, 2006)

Yes, I do daydream about him and envision him as playing with many other children in a wonderful "always summer" place - finding new hiding places, new creeks and woodlands to explore (as he always loved to do with me).

But then I come back and realize that it's just a daydream and my heart feels like lead for a while.  That morning - the last one - I kissed and hugged him before I left for work.  I had no idea that it would be the last time that I would see him alive.

And so I tell everyone - "Kiss your loved ones every day.  Hug them and tell them that you love them...because you never know."  

You just never know.

Oddly, a student of mine saw Chris in a dream about a year later.  Chris said that he couldn't "speak" to me because my grief was too overwhelming but he gave my student assurances that he was fine and that he'd be waiting for me.

Normally, I'd discount such a thing to nothing more than a weird dream but Chris gave my student some information that he (my student) couldn't have known.

     This is why I have no fear of death.  I realize that _getting_ to it (death) may not be a pleasant experience but I believe that death, per se, is nothing more than passing from one place to another.  There is no loss of consciousness (so I'm told by friends who have had near-death experiences), no fright, no pain -


And when your time comes, be assured that your friend (as well as many others) will be there to greet you...


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## terryl965 (Jun 6, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Terry  memories yes that I can understand and will you remember all your TKD ??  Not that I think you would have much use for it up there but just wondering.... you could be like God's doorman or something if he needed a little extra muscle with troublemakers, LOL
> 
> btw what is red die #5 are you telling me you are colouring your hair??? ha!
> 
> ...


 
Red die wae a joke from the ceventies.
That all Jenna
terry


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## Ceicei (Jun 6, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Ceicei my friend  Wow this is a thoughful view that I am glad for you to have a faith in and can I ask based upon this which version of "you" will you be resurrected to? You as a young person or teenager or as you are now? Or something else? Thank you
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna



Well, there is not an "age" in the afterlife (at least not the way we do age).  I suppose without the infirmities of life, the physical body might be approximate to the range of 24-27.

However, my grandmother died (I was 12) and then came back to visit me while I was hundreds of miles away from home for the first time (I was 22).  She looked the way I remembered her, except more vibrant. She didn't have her physical body yet, so it was her spirit.  She told me to always remember "you are well loved, and things will work out fine. It is not your time yet."  I felt a strong sense of comfort and peace, an assurance.  I knew then I had more reasons to live.

She came again briefly a year after I married with this admonishment, "you will have a son, please take care of yourself." Then she left.  I was surprised. That week I found out I was pregnant and gave birth several months later to my son, Byron.

All I can say is I know there is an afterlife.
That is why I said in your other thread, I do not fear death.  It may be the manner of dying though, that give me pause.

- Ceicei


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## heretic888 (Jun 6, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> IMy scriptures that death results in either reincarnation, or a merging with the Holy Spirit...or to quote Heretic: Unity. (Unity is preferred over a rebirth)



Well, Carol, I don't think you quite got my meaning there. . .

I mean, if you can actually "merge" with Unity, then it isn't really Unity, is it?? If it was, you would _already_ be united with It.

That is why, in Zen Buddhism, they call this the "Gateless Gate". On _this_ side of the fence, there appears to be this "gate" you have to cross through to realize One Taste. But, when you actually step through it, you realize there _never_ was a "gate" to begin with!! From beginning to end, it was all just One Taste.

That is also why, from the Zen perspective, you really can't "attain" or "achieve" the Enlightened Consciousness. It would basically be like looking down and suddenly "attaining" your feet. They were there all along, you were just too dense to notice. Thus the trusty Zen roshi comes with a smack on the head to wake "you" up.

With that in mind, I would like to close with a quote from St. Dionysius:

"If we want to truly understand God we have to go beyond all names and attributes. He is both God and not-God."

Laterz.


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## Martial Tucker (Jun 6, 2006)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Well, Carol, I don't think you quite got my meaning there. . .
> 
> I mean, if you can actually "merge" with Unity, then it isn't really Unity, is it?? If it was, you would _already_ be united with It.




BINGO!       I think we are.... Now....When you realize it, and release the dualistic mindset, you are on the correct path. 
I believe much of the Bible is a well-intentioned, but misguided misunderstanding of things that happened or were said, but I do believe that the quote: "The kingdom of Heaven is within you" is one of the most important things ever written.
Just my opinion....


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jun 6, 2006)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> That is also why, from the Zen perspective, you really can't "attain" or "achieve" the Enlightened Consciousness. It would basically be like looking down and suddenly "attaining" your feet. They were there all along, you were just too dense to notice. Thus the trusty Zen roshi comes with a smack on the head to wake "you" up.


 
I find this analogy compelling and more accurate than most of my own attempts at description.

I would only add that, as we are in this corporeal form, our connection with Unity or other names as you choose, is limited and, therefor, not complete.  I feel that what we can attain is an understanding of the interconnectivity of life and our position within it.  It's a question of focus: whether on corporeal aspects or spiritual ones.


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## Martial Tucker (Jun 6, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I find this analogy compelling and more accurate than most of my own attempts at description.
> 
> I would only add that, as we are in this corporeal form, our connection with Unity or other names as you choose, is limited and, therefor, not complete.  I feel that what we can attain is an understanding of the interconnectivity of life and our position within it.  It's a question of focus: whether on corporeal aspects or spiritual ones.




IMHO, our connection with "Unity" is potentially unlimited at any time. Any current limits are a result of our self-imposed belief/priority system, both conscious and unconscious.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jun 6, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> IMHO, our connection with "Unity" is potentially unlimited at any time. Any current limits are a result of our self-imposed belief/priority system, both conscious and unconscious.


 
I inclined to accept the potential of our connection; but, being trapped in this meat suit affects spirituality.  I have been raised knowing that this body would fail and become fertilizer.  That knowledge, plus the day-to-day aches and pains and the cost of maintaining it all limit my spirituality, to some degree.


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## Jenna (Jun 6, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> IMHO, our connection with "Unity" is potentially unlimited at any time. Any current limits are a result of our self-imposed belief/priority system, both conscious and unconscious.


MT to be an integral aspect of an unlimited source is a wonderful thing but is there any PRACTICAL realisation of this potentially awesome thing? or are we bound to theorise only while we are corporeal meat as Egg suggests

Thank you 
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## matt.m (Jun 6, 2006)

I believe that when you die you go to heaven if you tried to have a good life and try to be considerate to all, etc.  I believe that if you are trying to live a good life and a good will towards all others that a slight expression of the kingdom of heaven is certainly present.


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## Martial Tucker (Jun 6, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> MT to be an integral aspect of an unlimited source is a wonderful thing but is there any PRACTICAL realisation of this potentially awesome thing? or are we bound to theorise only while we are corporeal meat as Egg suggests
> 
> Thank you
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


Jenna, if I had all the needed answers, there'd be little fat statues of me
around all of the monasteries instead of that Siddhartha guy 

But, my opinion is that the first important step is to realize that not only are we all connected, we are in essence, all the same. Similar to drops of water in the ocean. As such, I think the most important thing we can do is 
forgive ourselves for our past mistakes and release the baggage of guilt, then do the same for those around us in terms of forgiveness. Much easier said than done, but I think that's the start of the process of tuning into the
"Unity" that  is all of us.


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## Ray (Jun 6, 2006)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I believe when I die, my physical body will undergo the decaying process and my spirit will continue to live and still retain my memories. At some point, I will resurrect to be the same person that I am. My definition of the resurrection means my physical body will eventually be restored into a much better living immortal condition and join with my spirit (as a part of the resurrection). I will look basically the same as I do, but without the physical problems that exist with my current life. That is why I need to live my life the best I can, take care of what I have (my physical body), and try to create the best memories as well, because that is what I will "take with me". I believe that to be true of every single person and creature. As such, I need to relate as well as I can with the people around me. This is basically my view.


I agree with Ceicei on this.


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## heretic888 (Jun 6, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> BINGO! I think we are.... Now....When you realize it, and release the dualistic mindset, you are on the correct path.



Well, at best, I would say it's a good first step. . .

After all, both a "dualistic mindset" and a "nondualistic mindset" are manifestations of the same prior dualism. The wisdom traditions tell us that you have to do more than just think about it. It does one no good if the ego is identified with a nondualistic worldview, since the same ego is still there mucking things up.

I should add the caveat, though, that I myself do not meditate as often as I woud like. 



			
				Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> I believe much of the Bible is a well-intentioned, but misguided misunderstanding of things that happened or were said, but I do believe that the quote: "The kingdom of Heaven is within you" is one of the most important things ever written.



Heh. You should read up on St. John of the Cross. His mysticism is derived almost entirely from Biblical references and yet he is as "Buddhist" as you could ever hope a Christian to be. 

Laterz.


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## heretic888 (Jun 6, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I find this analogy compelling and more accurate than most of my own attempts at description.


 
Thanks but I'm just paraphrasing Ken Wilber here. 



			
				OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I would only add that, as we are in this corporeal form, our connection with Unity or other names as you choose, is limited and, therefor, not complete. I feel that what we can attain is an understanding of the interconnectivity of life and our position within it. It's a question of focus: whether on corporeal aspects or spiritual ones.



Again, I believe my comments are being misunderstood here. . .

The whole point of Unity is that everything is just One Taste, from unborn beginning to undying end. There is nothing you can point to or name that is "more" Unity or "closer to" Unity than anything else, because it is all Unity. 

Starting to see how any attempts to logically break down this stuff just ends up in paradox?? 

Laterz.


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## heretic888 (Jun 6, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I inclined to accept the potential of our connection; but, being trapped in this meat suit affects spirituality.


 
Not if you're resting on the collective (and cumulative) testimony of the wisdom traditions.

In the Judeo-Christian tradition, there is mythology associating how human beings are made in the "image" of the Divine and how man is beloved above even the angels. In Buddhism, there are prayers that give thanks for "this precious human body", as only human beings (not animals and not demons and not devas/gods) have the potential to realize fully Enlightened Consciousness. The Tantric currents of Hinduism and Buddhism have whole spiritual methodologies that revolve around doing "neat" stuff with your physical body.

What you are mistaking is having corporeal form and being exclusively identified with corporeal form. When St. Paul made the distinction between "psychic" and "pneumatic" Christians, he was talking about people that were still alive.

Attachment is the "problem", not existence.

Laterz.


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## heretic888 (Jun 6, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> MT to be an integral aspect of an unlimited source is a wonderful thing but is there any PRACTICAL realisation of this potentially awesome thing? or are we bound to theorise only while we are corporeal meat as Egg suggests


 
Meditation.

And don't give me any of this bull-hookey about how "meditation" is some Eastern thing that lets demons inhabit your spirit or some such nonsense. Christians like Thomas Merton and Thomas Keating have written extensively about the contemplative side of Christianity, there is Kabbalah in Judaism, and Sufism in Islam.

To be perfectly blunt, anything short of meditation ain't gonna get the job done. Even meditation itself might not get the job done, as there's a whole lot of luck and "mystery" in the equation, too.

But, if'n you're not meditating you're probably not gonna get it.

Laterz.


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## Martial Tucker (Jun 6, 2006)

BTW, Heretic888......Happy Birthday.....I'm a bit surprised to see that you're only 24.


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## heretic888 (Jun 6, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> BTW, Heretic888......Happy Birthday.....I'm a bit surprised to see that you're only 24.


 
Thanks.

So, is this the part where I joke about being the Anti-Christ?


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## Martial Tucker (Jun 6, 2006)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Thanks.
> 
> So, is this the part where I joke about being the Anti-Christ?





Anti-Christ......D-Day........you got it all going for you, it would seem


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jun 6, 2006)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Not if you're resting on the collective (and cumulative) testimony of the wisdom traditions.
> 
> In the Judeo-Christian tradition, there is mythology associating how human beings are made in the "image" of the Divine and how man is beloved above even the angels. In Buddhism, there are prayers that give thanks for "this precious human body", as only human beings (not animals and not demons and not devas/gods) have the potential to realize fully Enlightened Consciousness. The Tantric currents of Hinduism and Buddhism have whole spiritual methodologies that revolve around doing "neat" stuff with your physical body.
> 
> ...


 
Ouch!  Dammit, you made my head hurt again!


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## Jenna (Jun 6, 2006)

Pffft cogito ergo sum and thus *not thinking* I disappear.... Keyser Soze style.... gone ha!

Jenna


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## heretic888 (Jun 6, 2006)

Ummm..... the red pill??


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## Jenna (Jun 6, 2006)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Ummm..... the red pill??


Take em both ha!

Come on dude its your 24th and you are here debating the essence of unity? Ha! What do 24 year olds do these days I do not know.... you kids and your books.... in my day it was all PS2s and XBoxes oh well pass me my pipe and slippers and I will have a choon on me gramophonograph

Seriously H888 - happy birthday to you happy birthday to you and a big cake in the shape of a moebius loop  

Be good now
Jenna


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## heretic888 (Jun 6, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Ha! What do 24 year olds do these days I do not know....


 
Um, we go to Business Calculus classes on our birthdays, apparently.

I'm off!


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## Jenna (Jun 6, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> Yes, I do daydream about him and envision him as playing with many other children in a wonderful "always summer" place - finding new hiding places, new creeks and woodlands to explore (as he always loved to do with me).
> 
> But then I come back and realize that it's just a daydream and my heart feels like lead for a while. That morning - the last one - I kissed and hugged him before I left for work. I had no idea that it would be the last time that I would see him alive.
> 
> ...


Phillip hi yes I understand the leaden heart that remains once the daydream thoughts have dispersed this is a very real thing for you I am certain but there are many of us who possess such things if this is at all helpful to know

And the incident with your student yes these are the things I think we dismiss because of our relentlessly bourgeoning desire for proofs and facts and cynicism to what as children we embraced and to be as a child is a thing many of us would benefit from I think 

I would ask a presumptious favour when your little mans birthday next comes around you say hi or light a candle for me too because we are all on the same path every one of us.

Thank you again for your humbling honest and thoughtful words I wish there were more like you

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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