# can anyone tell me....



## Manny

The diferences beetwen japanese jujusu and brazilian jujutsu? for me they are very alike but I am not a jujutsu student.

Manny


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## pgsmith

The most basic difference between traditional Japanese jujutsu and Brazilian jujutsu is that most of BJJ is floorwork, and most of Japanese jujutsu is standing. Understand that this is a very simplistic viewpoint, but it is the most basic difference.


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## Tanaka

Manny said:


> The diferences beetwen japanese jujusu and brazilian jujutsu? for me they are very alike but I am not a jujutsu student.
> 
> Manny



lol they are having this discussion on budoseek.

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?28118-Japanese-Jiujitsu-and-BJJ

But basically Japanese Jujutsu will have traceable lineage to Japan(Feudal times). Japanese Jujutsu is still usually grappling oriented, but was based off fighting in a battlefield. This means it was a mean to fight an armed and armored opponent(or unarmed). You won't really find techniques for fighting off your back, like you do in BJJ. Because in Japanese Jujutsu ryu... The focus was getting your opponent on the ground with you kneeling or standing over them.(Basically still on your feet). You still have the chokes, joint locks, takedowns, and throws, but with a different philosophy and approach. Traditionally Jujutsu was pretty much taught alongside with weapons training. Also in a lot BJJ schools you will be trained in a sport manner. Where you will be told something is against the rules, or you won't be allowed to do a certain joint manipulation. And finally BJJ isn't really from ancient Jujutsu, it is actually Judo.
I'd say BJJ and Japanese Jujutsu are pretty different outside the chokes and joint locks.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar

To add to the above, you have Japanese Jujutsu both Classical and Modern as well as Japanese based jujutsu, meaning it's an American or European style with a large to middlin degree of Japanese originated techniques.


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## lklawson

Tanaka said:


> And finally BJJ isn't really from ancient Jujutsu, it is actually Judo.


You mean BJJ is from Kano-Ryu/Kano-ha Jiu-Jitsu?

http://www.afsacademy.com/bjjhistory.htm



Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Touch Of Death

Brazillian Jiu jitsu, is a safer art, and therefore, better for sport competition. Some of the things they teach in the Japanese stuff can be crippling (which is the point).
Sean


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## shesulsa

Touch Of Death said:


> Brazillian Jiu jitsu, is a safer art, and therefore, better for sport competition. Some of the things they teach in the Japanese stuff can be crippling (which is the point).
> Sean



Is that why BJJ touts the rough and tough stuff and Judo is called "the gentle way?"


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## Chris Parker

Hey Manny,

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79373

Happy reading!


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## Manny

Well I have a nice picture of these,BJJJ is mostly floor work and japenese jujutsu is something like a rougher judo where the techs are standing and in the floor.

Manny


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## lklawson

Manny said:


> Well I have a nice picture of these,BJJJ is mostly floor work and japenese jujutsu is something like a rougher judo where the techs are standing and in the floor.
> 
> Manny


It's a lot muddier than that.

Kosen Judo/JuJitsu is an example of these ambiguous name applications.

Oh, and I've seen more injuries in Judo than you can shake a stick at.  The competitive nature encourages "hard core" training and competing.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## MJS

Tanaka said:


> lol they are having this discussion on budoseek.
> 
> http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?28118-Japanese-Jiujitsu-and-BJJ
> 
> But basically Japanese Jujutsu will have traceable lineage to Japan(Feudal times). Japanese Jujutsu is still usually grappling oriented, but was based off fighting in a battlefield. This means it was a mean to fight an armed and armored opponent(or unarmed). You won't really find techniques for fighting off your back, like you do in BJJ. Because in Japanese Jujutsu ryu... The focus was getting your opponent on the ground with you kneeling or standing over them.(Basically still on your feet). You still have the chokes, joint locks, takedowns, and throws, but with a different philosophy and approach. Traditionally Jujutsu was pretty much taught alongside with weapons training. Also in a lot BJJ schools you will be trained in a sport manner. Where you will be told something is against the rules, or you won't be allowed to do a certain joint manipulation. And finally BJJ isn't really from ancient Jujutsu, it is actually Judo.
> I'd say BJJ and Japanese Jujutsu are pretty different outside the chokes and joint locks.


 
So theres no grappling in JJJ?


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## Tanaka

MJS said:


> So theres no grappling in JJJ?



Well of course there is.
"Japanese Jujutsu is still usually grappling oriented"


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## Touch Of Death

shesulsa said:


> Is that why BJJ touts the rough and tough stuff and Judo is called "the gentle way?"


No.


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## MJS

Tanaka said:


> Well of course there is.
> "Japanese Jujutsu is still usually grappling oriented"


 
So then there will be grappling defenses?  I'm talking about what you said in your post...that you wont find techs for fighting off your back.


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## Tanaka

MJS said:


> So then there will be grappling defenses?  I'm talking about what you said in your post...that you wont find techs for fighting off your back.



I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean.

In Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and Judo. There are techniques developed to where you can fight off your back when someone is on top of you. Being able to do stuff from the guard position.

But yeah of course there are grappling defenses in Japanese Jujutsu. Just none that I know of off the back while someone is on top of you.


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## pgsmith

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. The first three are Japanese Koryu (created prior to 1863) jujutsu arts. ....

Shindo Yoshin ryu 
Takenouchi ryu
Hontai Yoshin ryu
Brazilian Jujutsu


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## MJS

Tanaka said:


> I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean.
> 
> In Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and Judo. There are techniques developed to where you can fight off your back when someone is on top of you. Being able to do stuff from the guard position.
> 
> But yeah of course there are grappling defenses in Japanese Jujutsu. Just none that I know of off the back while someone is on top of you.


 
Just asking, because some JJJ that I've seen has included defenses while you're on your back.


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## Steve

Well, I don't know much about Japanese Jujutsu, but there seems to be some wierd ideas floating around about what BJJ is and isn't. I'd recommend that you guys read Slideyfoot's comprehensive history of BJJ. If you only read through the first few sections, it explains where BJJ came from and how it relates to its Japanese roots. 

http://www.slideyfoot.com/1982/06/history-of-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-bjj.html

Edit to add that I really enjoy this particular narrative history.  Slidey's writing style is conversational and accessible, not overly academic.  He cites his sources and includes a lot of details often glossed over.  For example, Kano's introduction to Fusen Ryu Jujutsu, the early evolution of Judo and the close ties between early Judo and the roots of BJJ.  Saying that BJJ is a derivative of Judo without understanding the differences between modern Judo and Judo as it was in the early 1900's is very misleading.


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## Tanaka

MJS said:


> Just asking, because some JJJ that I've seen has included defenses while you're on your back.



Well there are some Japanese Jujutsu schools that have lineage to ancient ryu and draw from Judo.
Which in turn make them gendai.


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## Manny

pgsmith said:


> They say a picture is worth a thousand words. The first three are Japanese Koryu (created prior to 1863) jujutsu arts. ....
> 
> Shindo Yoshin ryu
> Takenouchi ryu
> Hontai Yoshin ryu
> Brazilian Jujutsu


 
I like the Shindo Yoshin Ryu the most.

Manny


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## Gaius Julius Caesar

The lines get blured which is a good thing IMO if you care about combat effectivness and making it work for you.

 If you are in a Koryu or your dead set on presserving someone's teachings then lineage, names and technical correctness matters a great deal. 

  If I was lucky enough to study a true Koryu, then in that Dojo I would strictly adhere to the teachings and terms, as you are trying to preserve something and get a touch of the past.

 The closest I have come to that is Daito Ryu, which is not a Koryu but comes from them. Plus Icho Yama Ryu, from which we came has alot of Takenouchi Ryu in it, at least when Kiyama Sensei (Head of Daito Ryu Kodo Kai in the US also a Takenouchi Ryu Sensei) described it.

 But even Koryus could be rather ecclectic in their time. Diane Skoss's Koryu books point this out. Lot's of founders studied this and then that, formed some of their own ideas, had their own expieriences and created a new art from there. It's just they might have done that in 1644.

 Unless you are trying to train for history, you don't need to get hung up on it. I used to and then I realized it was a waste of time and breath better served towards my goals.


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## Nishibi Ryu

Its really simple, Gracies were taught Judo way back when which at that time was also known a Ju Jutsu which is generic for most MA of the time. They liked the ground work aspect of it and focused on it so much that they were very good at it and took it to another level.
They and every other country did NOT invent a martial art ALL of them came from JUDO or one of the Ju Jutsu styles which Judo also came from, a combination of all of them.

This obviously excludes the Chinese arts and TKD as far as I know, so, BJJ, Krav Maga, Hapkido, Sambo, Pancrasian, all came from Judo and was renamed by who ever took it to that country!


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## Chris Parker

Oh boy..... er, no.

BJJ came ostensibly from Kosen Judo (High School Judo) which was already very well known for focusing on ne-waza (ground fighting) than the "full" version of Judo. Really, it was just one faction of Kano's Judo with a different emphasis. So although the Brazilians may have had a preference for ground fighting, it is also what was shown to them back in the day... and for the record, the Machados were the ones Maeda was teaching, that was then extended to their cousins, the Gracies, with Helio being considered too young and sickly to train initially. But the Gracies had better marketing ideas (such as the UFC), which lead to their dominance over the Machados in most people's minds (note: not technical dominance, just popularity....).

Judo itself comes from Kano Jigoro's schooling in a number of systems, most dominantly Kito Ryu and Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, although he did study a few others from time to time. It may also be important to note that he never really got that far into any of these systems, never earnt Menkyo Kaiden, and decided to go it alone rather prematurely and with a great deal of arrogance. He set up particular rules for his system to compete under, and with other schools not being used to these rules, the Kano-ha Jujutsu practitioners won most of the time. As it was not as complex as a Koryu system, it was adopted into High School curriculums, to the point where a specific training emphasis for High School students was developed, focused on ground work as there was less chance of injury than there was from a nasty throw. Hey, what do you know, full circle!

When it comes to "every other country did NOT invent a martial art ALL of them came from JUDO or one of the Ju Jutsu styles which Judo also came from", really don't know where to start with this.... To begin with, it's patently incorrect. Judo is not the original martial art, nor is Jujutsu. And while it has become a rather generic term, it is not what you are suggesting here.

Jujutsu is a term used to refer to Japanese unarmed or lightly armed martial methods and arts, and is by no means the only term used, nor is the use of the same or similar term any indication of any similarity of relationship between the arts themselves. Other terms for Jujutsu and Jujutsu-like systems in the Koryu world include Taijutsu, Wajutsu, Yawara, Te, Hade, Goho, Torite, Kogusoku, Judo (yes, preceding Kano by at least 150 years), Koshi no Mawari, and many many more. These systems may have had a great deal of stand-up striking, stand-up grappling, ground-based grappling, many weapons, no weapons, only a few weapons, be a major aspect of a system, a minor aspect of a system, or anywhere in between. And even then, Jujutsu and Jujutsu-like systems were never the original arts, or the original focus of them. The unarmed or lightly armed systems developed as a supplementary system as a worst-case scenario if you lost or damaged your weapons on the battlefield. So to say that everything comes from them is to completely misunderstand what they are and why they developed.

As to your list, BJJ comes primarily from Kosen Judo, taken and adapted into a new expression (a new art) by the Brazilians, not just renamed, Krav Maga's original source was Shotokan Karate, same as TKD in the beginning, which certainly didn't come from Judo, or any form of Jujutsu (the only Karate system that really can claim it does is Wado Ryu, which some consider a branch of Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu), Hapkido is believed to have been based on Daito Ryu Aikijutsu (same as Aikido, although evidence outside of the technical similarities are hard to come by), Sambo is pretty much Judo (but without pants!), Pancration is a modern attempt to reclaim the name of an old system lost to the years, and is similar to an MMA approach more than anything else. Judo may have influenced certain parts, but that's about it.


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## lklawson

Nishibi Ryu said:


> They and every other country did NOT invent a martial art ALL of them came from JUDO or one of the Ju Jutsu styles which Judo also came from, a combination of all of them.
> 
> This obviously excludes the Chinese arts and TKD as far as I know, so, BJJ, Krav Maga, Hapkido, Sambo, Pancrasian, all came from Judo and was renamed by who ever took it to that country!


Are you a troll?


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## Chris Parker

MJS said:


> So then there will be grappling defenses? I'm talking about what you said in your post...that you wont find techs for fighting off your back.


 


Tanaka said:


> I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean.
> 
> In Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and Judo. There are techniques developed to where you can fight off your back when someone is on top of you. Being able to do stuff from the guard position.
> 
> But yeah of course there are grappling defenses in Japanese Jujutsu. Just none that I know of off the back while someone is on top of you.


 
Might as well throw in on this one as well....

Within Koryu systems, there are a number of Ryu-ha that I know of that include defences from your back, including Bokuden Ryu, Enshin Ryu, and a few others. However these defences are designed against (or occasionally with) weaponry, as they come from the idea that you got knocked down on a battlefield (in armour), and must defend your life from there. The attacks would typically be a sword or short sword in order to decapitate, so defences for that would be required. There would not, however, be anything like rolling around looking for a submission/arm bar etc, as it is completely out of place there.

Most "classical" ground fighting (ne waza) in a Japanese sense is about pinning and restraining an enemy in order to either tie them up with Hojojutsu (Hayanawajutsu), or to be able to kill them more easily either by decapitation (typically with a short sword, or some other weapon), or to employ a Yoroidoshi (armour-piercing dagger). In these actions, the person applying the technique is still upright to a fair degree, usually in kind of a half-kneel posture (one knee down), as to end up on the ground in armour is a rather undesirable place to be. It's fairly difficult to get up again!

In terms of your asking if Jujutsu doesn't include grappling, Mike, I get the feeling you meant grappling in more of an MMA-type terminology, meaning ground fighting based on locks/holds/chokes etc. Grappling is really the basis of Japanese unarmed fighting systems, as striking against armour, again, is not really recommended. But the grappling is typically done standing up, not on the ground.

Modern systems, on the other hand, not having the requirements of actual combat, instead more often based on competitive testing methods, are far more likely to have a basis in ground-based grappling, as in Kosen Judo and BJJ (as well as Shooto, and many other forms of ground fighting that have gained popularity in recent times).


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## Steve

Chris Parker said:


> Oh boy..... er, no.
> 
> BJJ came ostensibly from Kosen Judo (High School Judo) which was already very well known for focusing on ne-waza (ground fighting) than the "full" version of Judo. Really, it was just one faction of Kano's Judo with a different emphasis. So although the Brazilians may have had a preference for ground fighting, it is also what was shown to them back in the day... and for the record, the Machados were the ones Maeda was teaching, that was then extended to their cousins, the Gracies, with Helio being considered too young and sickly to train initially. But the Gracies had better marketing ideas (such as the UFC), which lead to their dominance over the Machados in most people's minds (note: not technical dominance, just popularity....).


Whoa, Chris.  The Machado family's elder statesman is Rigan, who has direct lineage back through Carlinhos, the founder of Gracie Barra.  Rigan and his four brothers, John, Jean Jacques, Roger and Carlos, are cousins to the Gracies.  They grew up and trained together primarily under Rolls and Carlos Jr. 

Jean Jacques is notable for competing at an elite level despite a physical birth defect on one of his hands.  

I think you might be referring to Luiz Franca.  Luiz Franca taught Jiu Jitsu to Oswaldo Fadda.  Not much is out there regarding Franca or Fadda Jiu Jitsu, but you can find bits and pieces about their relationship to the Gracie family and early jiu jitsu training.


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## MJS

Chris Parker said:


> Might as well throw in on this one as well....
> 
> Within Koryu systems, there are a number of Ryu-ha that I know of that include defences from your back, including Bokuden Ryu, Enshin Ryu, and a few others. However these defences are designed against (or occasionally with) weaponry, as they come from the idea that you got knocked down on a battlefield (in armour), and must defend your life from there. The attacks would typically be a sword or short sword in order to decapitate, so defences for that would be required. There would not, however, be anything like rolling around looking for a submission/arm bar etc, as it is completely out of place there.
> 
> Most "classical" ground fighting (ne waza) in a Japanese sense is about pinning and restraining an enemy in order to either tie them up with Hojojutsu (Hayanawajutsu), or to be able to kill them more easily either by decapitation (typically with a short sword, or some other weapon), or to employ a Yoroidoshi (armour-piercing dagger). In these actions, the person applying the technique is still upright to a fair degree, usually in kind of a half-kneel posture (one knee down), as to end up on the ground in armour is a rather undesirable place to be. It's fairly difficult to get up again!
> 
> In terms of your asking if Jujutsu doesn't include grappling, Mike, I get the feeling you meant grappling in more of an MMA-type terminology, meaning ground fighting based on locks/holds/chokes etc. Grappling is really the basis of Japanese unarmed fighting systems, as striking against armour, again, is not really recommended. But the grappling is typically done standing up, not on the ground.
> 
> Modern systems, on the other hand, not having the requirements of actual combat, instead more often based on competitive testing methods, are far more likely to have a basis in ground-based grappling, as in Kosen Judo and BJJ (as well as Shooto, and many other forms of ground fighting that have gained popularity in recent times).


 
Chris,

Yes, this is what I was talking about.  Thanks.   Again, only reason why I asked, is because of a local JJJ group that I know of, that does include MMA type rolling.


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## Steve

Just one more thing to add about Kosen Judo.  While Meada was certainly involved in the early development of the kosen judo movement, he was also very active in prizefighting and accepting challenge matches.  Over his travels, he was exposed to many other styles.  His early influence, as well as the influence of other Westerners in early BJJ development, are responsible for many of the techniques borrowed from CaCC wrestling, folk wrestling and other forms of western grappling. 

Not so much a correction, as just adding to the mix.  It's not as simple as saying that BJJ is basically Kosen Judo taught to Carlos and Helio.


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## pgsmith

> Again, only reason why I asked, is because of a local JJJ group that I know of, that does include MMA type rolling.


  Bear in mind that there are a lot of groups out there that _call_ themselves "jujutsu", but have very little in common with actual koryu jujutsu from Japan. It is very much like the plethora of "American karate" schools that really don't look much like traditional Okinawan karate.


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## Nishibi Ryu

lklawson said:


> Are you a troll?


 No I am not, just tired of people thinking BJJ is a Brazilian MA. They only have the dancing type one.


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## Nishibi Ryu

Chris Parker said:


> Might as well throw in on this one as well....
> 
> Within Koryu systems, there are a number of Ryu-ha that I know of that include defences from your back, including Bokuden Ryu, Enshin Ryu, and a few others. However these defences are designed against (or occasionally with) weaponry, as they come from the idea that you got knocked down on a battlefield (in armour), and must defend your life from there. The attacks would typically be a sword or short sword in order to decapitate, so defences for that would be required. There would not, however, be anything like rolling around looking for a submission/arm bar etc, as it is completely out of place there.
> 
> Most "classical" ground fighting (ne waza) in a Japanese sense is about pinning and restraining an enemy in order to either tie them up with Hojojutsu (Hayanawajutsu), or to be able to kill them more easily either by decapitation (typically with a short sword, or some other weapon), or to employ a Yoroidoshi (armour-piercing dagger). In these actions, the person applying the technique is still upright to a fair degree, usually in kind of a half-kneel posture (one knee down), as to end up on the ground in armour is a rather undesirable place to be. It's fairly difficult to get up again!
> 
> In terms of your asking if Jujutsu doesn't include grappling, Mike, I get the feeling you meant grappling in more of an MMA-type terminology, meaning ground fighting based on locks/holds/chokes etc. Grappling is really the basis of Japanese unarmed fighting systems, as striking against armour, again, is not really recommended. But the grappling is typically done standing up, not on the ground.
> 
> Modern systems, on the other hand, not having the requirements of actual combat, instead more often based on competitive testing methods, are far more likely to have a basis in ground-based grappling, as in Kosen Judo and BJJ (as well as Shooto, and many other forms of ground fighting that have gained popularity in recent times).


 
Yes I know Ju Jutsu is a generic term for all Japanese arts thats my point to an extent. What I said is correct just very brief and without some detail. Most MA today can find their roots in Judo or Ju Jutsu, if it were not for Kano and the Meji era we would not be having this discussion Japan was a closed book to the west. I understand your post but I was not wanting to go into such depth, the discussion was not in need of that much detail, just that BJJ came from one source at one point!


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## Tanaka

Nishibi Ryu said:


> No I am not, just tired of people thinking BJJ is a Brazilian MA. They only have the dancing type one.



It is a Brazilian Martial art.
Which came from Judo, and no most arts of today don't come from Jujutsu or Judo. Unless they have Japanese roots.


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## MJS

pgsmith said:


> Bear in mind that there are a lot of groups out there that _call_ themselves "jujutsu", but have very little in common with actual koryu jujutsu from Japan. It is very much like the plethora of "American karate" schools that really don't look much like traditional Okinawan karate.


 
I dont believe thats the case with this school.


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## Chris Parker

Hi Nishibi Ryu,



Nishibi Ryu said:


> Yes I know Ju Jutsu is a generic term for all Japanese arts thats my point to an extent.
> 
> No it's not. It is a relatively generic term for certain types of Japanese martial arts, not all of them. You would be hard pressed to describe Toda-ha Buko Ryu, Tatsumi Ryu, Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, Kyudo, Kendo, Jukendo, any form of modern Japanese Karate (save Wado Ryu), Ogasawara Ryu, Owari Kan Ryu, and many many many more as Jujutsu, even though some include Jujutsu or Jujutsu like sections in their teachings.
> 
> What I said is correct just very brief and without some detail.
> 
> No, it wasn't. Hence my correction, really....
> 
> Most MA today can find their roots in Judo or Ju Jutsu,
> 
> No, they can't. Apart from the above list, Shorinji Kempo has no ties to Jujutsu in any form, and other forms of modern Jujutsu systems (including Hakko Ryu and Aikido) have no link to Judo. Then we get Iaido, Jodo..... do we need to go on?
> 
> if it were not for Kano and the Meji era we would not be having this discussion Japan was a closed book to the west.
> 
> You may more accurately say if it were not for Commodore Perry we wouldn't be having this discussion.... really, this has little to do with the point here.
> 
> Yes, Japan was closed off to the rest of the world (as a result of the third Tokugawa Shogun, from memory, not Ieyasu as is commonly thought) for over 200 years, and was opened up in the 1860's, due in no small part to the threats of Perry and the US, reinstating the Meiji Emperor and ending the Tokugawa Shogunate, but to then put Kano into this mix is just wrong.
> 
> I understand your post but I was not wanting to go into such depth, the discussion was not in need of that much detail, just that BJJ came from one source at one point!
> 
> 
> The origins of BJJ are well covered here (thanks for the added info, Steve! My version is the one I've heard most often, I've encountered aspects of the one you presented, good to have more details!), and your claim was beyond just the origins of BJJ, it claimed that all martial arts in all areas come from Judo or Jujutsu, and that is far from the case.


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## lklawson

Nishibi Ryu said:


> No I am not, just tired of people thinking BJJ is a Brazilian MA. They only have the dancing type one.


My question was based on your statement that all martial arts flow from Japanese JiuJitsu.

And that's still my question.  Based on your further statements defending the thesis that "most martial arts" come from Japanese Jiu Jitsu, either you are a troll or so woefully uninformed as to require deliberate cognitive dissonance.  Capoeira?  Jogo do Pau?  Silat?  Escrima?  Garrote Larense?  La Savate?

The list goes on and on and on...


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## Nishibi Ryu

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Nishibi Ryu,


 
I am being too general I know and much to brief, I have read a fair bit on the historyof Judo and agree that Kempo has no ties to judo. But all of the others you mentioned were utilised in the origional Judo as it was utilising the best of all Ju Jutsu techniques including Jodo although limited. Originally Ju Jutsu was a generic term, not so today so you are correct in that, but I was refering to pre 1960 as Judo and Ju Jutsu were known and called one in the same by authours and others from time to time. Kawaishi taught Kodokan Judo and Aikijujitsu, it was refered to as Judo or Ju Jutsu but was only Kodokan Judo. Aikido has links to Aikijujitsu via Daito Ryu and these were also blended into Judo in the early 1900's so there are clear Ju Jutsu schools but all were close to Kano in some way. Kano bought Judo or Ju Jutsu to the world along with many others but he was the original driving force to its expansion so he could show the world the inner Japan. 

All in all I am not making myself very clear and do not have the time to do so so I will agree to disagree, my main point is that BJJ came from Japan like most other MA no matter what you call it.

Thanks for the banter


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## lklawson

Nishibi Ryu said:


> if it were not for Kano and the Meji era we would not be having this discussion Japan was a closed book to the west.


And, instead, we'd have to "settle" for Catch as Catch Can, la Boxe Francaise, la canne de armes, Saber, Singlestick, Destreza, navaja, fokos/valaska, Escrima, Kali, Silat, a zillion forms of Kung Fu, Bowie Knife, Tomahawk, Boxing, Muay Thai, Tae Kyon, &tc.


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## lklawson

Nishibi Ryu said:


> Kano bought Judo or Ju Jutsu to the world


Arguably, Kano brought Judo to Japan and Eward William Barton-Wright brought Judo and JiuJitsu to the world.  Before Barton-Wright imported Judo and JiuJitsu to Britain in 1899, Japanese fighting arts were little more than a narrow focus curiosity.

Barton-Wright brought Tani and Uyenishi to England, Lectured all over the place, and arranged the first JiuJitsu vs. native wrestling matches.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Chris Parker

Hi again,



Nishibi Ryu said:


> I am being too general I know and much to brief, I have read a fair bit on the historyof Judo and agree that Kempo has no ties to judo.
> 
> Neither do the others I have mentioned (or lklawson has mentioned from other parts of the world).
> 
> But all of the others you mentioned were utilised in the origional Judo as it was utilising the best of all Ju Jutsu techniques including Jodo although limited.
> 
> No they weren't. Hakkko Ryu is younger than Judo, so couldn't have been utilised, same with Jodo (and I really have no idea how you think either Seitei Jodo, or even Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo was "utilised" in Judo's development....).
> 
> Judo was based on Kano's studies, but that is far from saying that it was the best of all jujutsu techniques. As said, Kano never even achieved Menkyo Kaiden in any system, so he could hardly be said to have taken the best of all of the techniques, as he didn't know all of them (from every Ryu). He likely didn't even know all from the systems he did study.
> 
> Originally Ju Jutsu was a generic term, not so today so you are correct in that,
> 
> Actually, it's a more generic term now than if we go back to pre-Tokugawa.... back then Yawara was probably the most popular, although there were many variants as listed earlier.
> 
> but I was refering to pre 1960 as Judo and Ju Jutsu were known and called one in the same by authours and others from time to time.
> 
> That's honestly just a confusing way to go about it... Judo in the modern sense refers to Kodokan Judo, and although there were a few systems using the namein the 18th Century or earlier, it currently refers to Kodokan Judo pretty much exclusively.
> 
> And if you are talking about Judo pre-60's and using the term Jujutsu to apply to Kano's creation, I would suggest simply using the term Judo, for the simple reason of continuity and coherance in your discussion.
> 
> Kawaishi taught Kodokan Judo and Aikijujitsu, it was refered to as Judo or Ju Jutsu but was only Kodokan Judo.
> 
> Well, he trained in both a form of Aikijutsu in Kyoto, and in Kodokan Judo, and was considered rather defiant in not following the approved curriculum of the Kodokan, what he chose to call his school and syllabus was up to him, really. Not really sure what this is in relation to this discussion, though....
> 
> Aikido has links to Aikijujitsu via Daito Ryu and these were also blended into Judo in the early 1900's so there are clear Ju Jutsu schools but all were close to Kano in some way.
> 
> Daito Ryu in Judo? Really? Where did you get that from?
> 
> And, once again, no, not all Jujutsu schools were close to Kano in some, or in many cases, any way whatsoever.
> 
> Kano bought Judo or Ju Jutsu to the world along with many others but he was the original driving force to its expansion so he could show the world the inner Japan.
> 
> No, Kano developed Judo, the Japanese embraced it, and others brought it to the world. Yes, he promoted it, and did it in a very Japanese, nationalistic fashion, but if he was really concerned with showing the "inner Japan", maybe he should have stuck with his Koryu training long enough to earn Menkyo in, say, one of them? And, yes, I agree that that scenario would have potentially left us without Judo, but that's the chance you take....
> 
> All in all I am not making myself very clear and do not have the time to do so so I will agree to disagree, my main point is that BJJ came from Japan like most other MA no matter what you call it.
> 
> A form of Judo was brought to Japan, but there it changed, adapted, and modified itself into a new art, with a new philosophy, and thus became a truly new art. A Brazilian one, at that. Once more, the techniques are the least part of a martial art, and if you are only looking at the technical aspect, then you are missing the point of what makes something a distinct martial art as opposed to another one.
> 
> And really, most martial arts did not come from Japan. It is not the only source of martial systems, you are rather out in your take on this.
> 
> Thanks for the banter


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## frank raud

stevebjj said:


> Just one more thing to add about Kosen Judo. While Meada was certainly involved in the early development of the kosen judo movement, he was also very active in prizefighting and accepting challenge matches. Over his travels, he was exposed to many other styles. His early influence, as well as the influence of other Westerners in early BJJ development, are responsible for many of the techniques borrowed from CaCC wrestling, folk wrestling and other forms of western grappling.
> 
> Not so much a correction, as just adding to the mix. It's not as simple as saying that BJJ is basically Kosen Judo taught to Carlos and Helio.


 
How was Maeda involved in the early development of the kosen judo movement?


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## frank raud

Nishibi Ryu said:


> Kawaishi taught Kodokan Judo and Aikijujitsu, it was refered to as Judo or Ju Jutsu but was only Kodokan Judo.


 
So, Kawaishi taught two separate arts, that were referred to by two separate names(apparently not even necessarily the names of the arts he taught), but it was only Kodokan judo?

I have all of Kawaishi's books, dont see any thing "aiki" in them. Spent twenty plus years doing Kawaishi based ju jitsu, didn't see anything "aiki" like in training either. I base this off cross training with various Aikido, Hakko-ryu and other ju jitsu/ju jutsu groups from around the world.


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## Steve

frank raud said:


> How was Maeda involved in the early development of the kosen judo movement?


The evidence is in the similarities between the kosen judo movement in Japan and the techniques and emphasis taught by Maeda to the Gracie family at around the same time.  This is speculation to some degree, but the circumstantial evidence is undeniable, IMO.  Do you believe he wasn't?


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## Nishibi Ryu

frank raud said:


> So, Kawaishi taught two separate arts, that were referred to by two separate names(apparently not even necessarily the names of the arts he taught), but it was only Kodokan judo?
> 
> I have all of Kawaishi's books, dont see any thing "aiki" in them. Spent twenty plus years doing Kawaishi based ju jitsu, didn't see anything "aiki" like in training either. I base this off cross training with various Aikido, Hakko-ryu and other ju jitsu/ju jutsu groups from around the world.


 

Hi, Kawaishi's first sensei was Kataro Yoshida who taught him Aikijujitsu and was a student of Daito Ryu ( Kataro I mean ). He taught Aikijujitsu when he first went to England which is where my sensei trained with him at the Oxford Judo club. In the 1930's he was graded by Kano in Kodokan Judo and then promoted that in France before and after WW2. My sensei had also trained with Yoshida breifly as he visited Kawaishi in Europe as he was with a nationalist group that was active in France Spain and Manchuria.
Sorry this is breif but I have been working for 2 days and 30 min sleep, bloody staff calling in sick!!!!!!!


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## frank raud

stevebjj said:


> The evidence is in the similarities between the kosen judo movement in Japan and the techniques and emphasis taught by Maeda to the Gracie family at around the same time. This is speculation to some degree, but the circumstantial evidence is undeniable, IMO. Do you believe he wasn't?


 

Judo was introduced into the Japanese school system around 1914. Maeda left Japan in 1904. The similarities are I believe due to the fact that KOSEN is a subset of Kodokan judo, and Maeda was a Kodokan student when he left Japan. I have no doubt his wrestling career introduced other elements to his game, but he was Kodokan to the end.


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## Steve

frank raud said:


> Judo was introduced into the Japanese school system around 1914. Maeda left Japan in 1904. The similarities are I believe due to the fact that KOSEN is a subset of Kodokan judo, and Maeda was a Kodokan student when he left Japan. I have no doubt his wrestling career introduced other elements to his game, but he was Kodokan to the end.


So, you're suggesting that kosen judo, as a subset of kodokan judo, just magically appeared in 1914 as a fully formed program?  

I didn't say that Maeda was not a kodokan judoka.  What I wrote is "While Meada was certainly involved in the early development of the kosen judo movement...."  The period of time between incorporating fusen-ryu jujutsu and 1914 when Kosen Judo was introduced into the Japanese school system is what I'm talking about.  How can you look at BJJ and Kosen Judo and not see at least an early relationship between the two?

It sounds like this strikes some kind of a nerve for you.  Why is that?


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## frank raud

stevebjj said:


> So, you're suggesting that kosen judo, as a subset of kodokan judo, just magically appeared in 1914 as a fully formed program?
> 
> I didn't say that Maeda was not a kodokan judoka. What I wrote is "While Meada was certainly involved in the early development of the kosen judo movement...." The period of time between incorporating fusen-ryu jujutsu and 1914 when Kosen Judo was introduced into the Japanese school system is what I'm talking about. How can you look at BJJ and Kosen Judo and not see at least an early relationship between the two?
> 
> It sounds like this strikes some kind of a nerve for you. Why is that?


I do see an early relationship, it's Kodokan judo.
I'm not suggesting that Kosen judo magically appeared in 1914, the techniques have existed since the beginning of judo, look at the Katame no kata.  What specifically did Maeda do that could be considered important in the development of the KOSEN judo movement?


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## Steve

frank raud said:


> I do see an early relationship, it's Kodokan judo.
> I'm not suggesting that Kosen judo magically appeared in 1914, the techniques have existed since the beginning of judo, look at the Katame no kata. What specifically did Maeda do that could be considered important in the development of the KOSEN judo movement?


Where did I say that Maeda was important to the development of Kosen Judo?


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## frank raud

stevebjj said:


> Where did I say that Maeda was important to the development of Kosen Judo?


 Ok, what was Maeda's involvement in the development of Kosen judo?


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## Steve

frank raud said:


> Ok, what was Maeda's involvement in the development of Kosen judo?


Do you ever get a sense of deja vu?  Do you think that Maeda wasn't involved?  Do you think that Gracie Jiu Jitsu is unrelated to Kosen Judo?


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## frank raud

stevebjj said:


> Do you ever get a sense of deja vu? Do you think that Maeda wasn't involved? Do you think that Gracie Jiu Jitsu is unrelated to Kosen Judo?


 
Yes. Yes. And Yes. Well let's qualify that last one. BJJ and Kosen are related through Kodokan judo,  I believe it is more a case of paralell development than one art being the base of the other. But if you can inform on what Maeda's involvement in the development of Kosen, hopefully providing some reference, I will gladly change my opinion if the facts justify it.


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## Tiberius

Isnt japanese Jujutsu related very closely to modern Judo, like a lot of copy/paste?


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## Chris Parker

I suggest reading the thread and those linked from it. Really.


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## Steve

frank raud said:


> Yes. Yes. And Yes. Well let's qualify that last one. BJJ and Kosen are related through Kodokan judo,  I believe it is more a case of paralell development than one art being the base of the other. But if you can inform on what Maeda's involvement in the development of Kosen, hopefully providing some reference, I will gladly change my opinion if the facts justify it.


I guess, for me, it's like twins seperated at birth.  The similarities between the two styles are undeniable, but ultimately, I am reading the opinions of sources I believe to be credible.

Mark Tripp wrote this article over on Bullshido.  Mark Tripp is a 7th degree judoka (IIRC).  Just to be clear, he qualified this passage as being his own opinion.  Once again, I think his opinion is credible.  Your mileage may vary.

Russ St. Hilaire is a 4th degree black belt in judo and wrote this article in which he specifically mentions Maeda among four other judoka who were heavily involved in the Kosen Judo.

Is it the reference to Kosen Judo that bothers you?  Had I said newaza in a more general term, would you be happier?  I'm still trying to figure out what axe you're grinding.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar

Kosen Judo was elementary and middle school Judo, it was not a subset or subart it was a rule set for kids in school that was heavier on grappling than the regualer, high school or University Judo.

 Maeda was a Judoka and a Jujutsuka, he told the Gracies they were doing Jujutsu because A. they were and B. He did not feel he had the right to call what he was doing on his own Judo.

 Depending on the source, he trained the gracies for either 6 months to 4 years. I'd bet the lack of good mats influenced more ground techniques than standing (allthough the old pics show a good deal of throwing from Heilio and his bros.)

 Maeda also did a fair share of chalenge matches in his time and most of us know that whatever you feel about groundwork, taken a bigger, faster opponent to the ground is a great way to gain control and nulify his power. 1 on 1 I am a huge advocate of gowing to the ground and control, like a Cop would. You can get a man down and not even hurty him to bad.

 On your feet that's different, joint locks and throws at full speed have a way of putting people in the emergency room.

 Either way, BJJ has Judo and Jujutsu based techniques, you could call it a Bastard child of both, but raised in the nation of Brasil where it took on a flavour and technical bent of it's own. In some situations it has surpassed it's parents, in others it has forgoten where it comes from. Enough people worked hard in it's development that to call it Japaners Judo or Jujutsu is an insult to people like Heilio, Carlson, Rolls, and many others who brought their own slant and tactics and techniques to the art.

 It's a good art and desereves to be called a Brazillian Martial art, it's been around longer than it took many of the exhalted Koryus to be developed.

 Just as an Americanized form of Jujutsu can call itself American Jujutsu if it wants, as long as it's not a strait down the middle version of an established art.

 History is important but it's what you can do with your training when the pooh hits the fan that matters the most.

 Shugyo!


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## frank raud

stevebjj said:


> I guess, for me, it's like twins seperated at birth. The similarities between the two styles are undeniable, but ultimately, I am reading the opinions of sources I believe to be credible.
> 
> Mark Tripp wrote this article over on Bullshido. Mark Tripp is a 7th degree judoka (IIRC). Just to be clear, he qualified this passage as being his own opinion. Once again, I think his opinion is credible. Your mileage may vary.
> 
> Russ St. Hilaire is a 4th degree black belt in judo and wrote this article in which he specifically mentions Maeda among four other judoka who were heavily involved in the Kosen Judo.
> 
> Is it the reference to Kosen Judo that bothers you? Had I said newaza in a more general term, would you be happier? I'm still trying to figure out what axe you're grinding.


 

Mark Tripp's article has been disected and found lacking from a historical perspective on many boards. The article is his opinion(and he of course is entitled to it), not necessarily fact. The article by St. Hilaire sensei is interesting, but does not include any footnotes or references as to where the information came from. Copy  the line about the four judoka involved in Kosen and paste into a google search, you will see it repeated in multiple locations, again without reference or citation. A quick read of St. Hilaire's article brings up some glaring inconsistencies as well.

You stated  "While Meada was certainly involved in the early development of the kosen judo movement...."  I asked what his involvement was. It has taken 5 or 6 posts to come to an answer. I am glad you respect the opinions of Mark Tripp and Russ St. Hilaire, I have great respect for them as martial artists. However, just because something has been repeated many times on the internet, does not necessarily make it fact.

No axe to grind, a simple question on Maeda's involvement.


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## frank raud

stevebjj said:


> Russ St. Hilaire is a 4th degree black belt in judo and wrote this article in which he specifically mentions Maeda among four other judoka who were heavily involved in the Kosen Judo.
> quote]
> 
> The article mentions Yamashita, Hirata,Tomita, Yokoyama and Maeda. It states in 1914 Kano organized the Kosen system." *By 1925 so much emphasis was on newaza - because of its success in contest that Kano had to
> make some new Judo rules limiting the amount of time the Judoka could stay on the ground. "* So we are to understand that after organizing a set of rules that emphasize newaza, Kano was upset that the competitors were spending their time doing ne-waza? So  he sent the troublemakers out into the world as ambassadors for judo? Hmm, does that make sense? Let's see, Yamashita, one of the first students of the Kodokan, left Japan in 1903 to teach in America and became Theodore Roosevelt's instructor.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamashita_Yoshiaki .
> Tomita and Maeda left Japan in 1904 for America and demonstrated at West Point, before going their separate ways.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuyo_Maeda
> 
> Yokoyama is possibly best known as Mifune's teacher, was a main instructor  at the Kodokan. Check the Kodokan website, here is what it has to say about Yamashita, Tomita and Yokoyama. *The Hall of Judo Luminaries displays photographs and brief biographies of nineteen individuals who made significant contributions to the early teaching and development of judo. These include, among others, 7th dan Tsunejiro Tomita, Jigoro Kanos first student and lifelong supporter; the exceptionally talented 6th dan Shiro Saigo, famous for his mountain storm technique; Sakujiro Devil Yokoyama, the powerful 8th dan at the center of instructional activities at the early Kodokan dojo; and Yoshitsugu Yamashita, the first 10th dan, judo instructor to U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt, and a principle contributor to the development of judo abroad.
> These fourTomita, Saigo, Yokoyama and Yamashitaare known as the Four Demigods of the Kodokan **http://www.kodokan.org/e_info/index_lib.html*  No mentions of KOSEN.
> 
> Yokoyama's 1915 book JUDO Kyohan is a fascinating look at early 20th century judo, written in 1909. Many famous judokas are pictured demonstrating techniques, including Maetemon Tanabe,  and Mifune. With Tanabe(of Fusen-ryu fame) and Yokoyama providing demonstrations, how much of the book is dedicated to groundwork? 38 pages out of 297.
> 
> So, we have three of of the five Judoka listed in the article departing from Japan by 1904, 10 years before the formation of KOSEN, 21 years before Kano cracked down and changed the rules. Three of the judokas referenced are amongst the very first(as in the original 20 students) of the Kodokan, but there was supposedly no emphasis on ne-waza in the early years. Does the article make sense to you?


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## Steve

Have to thank Chris Parker for bringing this thread back to light.  I don't recall seeing the last post by Frank Raud.  Looks like I have some reading to do!


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