# Its about the journey not the destination



## PhotonGuy

When talking about stuff such as rank or for that matter developing a certain level of proficiency in the martial arts which might not involve rank as not all styles use rank, people have pointed out that its about the journey not the destination. There has been some debate over what a black belt means. Some people say it just means you're a serious beginner and you're ready to learn the "real stuff" while other people say its at least equivalent to a college degree. It depends on the perspective and its all relative but I will say this, no matter how the black belt is viewed one thing is certain, it is not the end of the journey, at least not for people who keep training after getting a black belt. The journey in the martial arts is ongoing and never ending as long as the martial artist keeps training. So the black belt is not the end of the journey but you do reach a new leg in the journey. So while not everybody agrees on the black belt representing a serious beginner or somebody with a college degree or anywhere in between, which it does vary quite a bit since each dojo has its own standards, I do believe we can agree that its not the end of the journey and that it does, at the very least, represent reaching a new leg in the journey.


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## Danny T

PhotonGuy said:


> When talking about stuff such as rank or for that matter developing a certain level of proficiency in the martial arts which might not involve rank as not all styles use rank, people have pointed out that its about the journey not the destination. There has been some debate over what a black belt means. Some people say it just means you're a serious beginner and you're ready to learn the "real stuff" while other people say its at least equivalent to a college degree. It depends on the perspective and its all relative but I will say this, no matter how the black belt is viewed one thing is certain, it is not the end of the journey, at least not for people who keep training after getting a black belt. The journey in the martial arts is ongoing and never ending as long as the martial artist keeps training. So the black belt is not the end of the journey but you do reach a new leg in the journey. So while not everybody agrees on the black belt representing a serious beginner or somebody with a college degree or anywhere in between, which it does vary quite a bit since each dojo has its own standards, I do believe we can agree that its not the end of the journey and that it does, at the very least, represent reaching a new leg in the journey.


Every student I have awarded a BB to I have requested them to write a paper as they reflect upon what their journey to having attained a BB means to them. Those who have continued on their journey within the arts for the most part wrote about realizing it was just another day of training whereas most of those who quite after attaining their BB wrote about having finally achieving their goal.


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## Kung Fu Wang

One of my students has been with me for 12 years. He is more interested in testing his MA skill in local MMA gyms than to take his 1st degree black belt test that he was qualified to take 4 years ago.


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## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> When talking about stuff such as rank or for that matter developing a certain level of proficiency in the martial arts which might not involve rank as not all styles use rank, people have pointed out that its about the journey not the destination. There has been some debate over what a black belt means. Some people say it just means you're a serious beginner and you're ready to learn the "real stuff" while other people say its at least equivalent to a college degree. It depends on the perspective and its all relative but I will say this, no matter how the black belt is viewed one thing is certain, it is not the end of the journey, at least not for people who keep training after getting a black belt. The journey in the martial arts is ongoing and never ending as long as the martial artist keeps training. So the black belt is not the end of the journey but you do reach a new leg in the journey. So while not everybody agrees on the black belt representing a serious beginner or somebody with a college degree or anywhere in between, which it does vary quite a bit since each dojo has its own standards, I do believe we can agree that its not the end of the journey and that it does, at the very least, represent reaching a new leg in the journey.



Did you have a question about this? This seems like you are making a statement. What are we discussing?

A black belt is a by-product of hard training. It is almost incidental if you have a long term training mentality.

I had a friend who was held back from first dan due to some problems with self discipline. He was angry about being held back, which only served to illustrate his lack of self control and poor training mentality. It was pretty much certain that he would attain the grade at some point as he was a talent, but his total focus on it as a goal put him in a bad place in terms of emotional investment.

Better just to train and enjoy the by-products as an when they might come. There is such a thing as too much passion.


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## PhotonGuy

Danny T said:


> Every student I have awarded a BB to I have requested them to write a paper as they reflect upon what their journey to having attained a BB means to them. Those who have continued on their journey within the arts for the most part wrote about realizing it was just another day of training whereas most of those who quite after attaining their BB wrote about having finally achieving their goal.



For people who continue their journey I would say it is another day of training but you also do reach a new leg, at least from my experience. After you make black belt it doesn't get easier it gets harder. For one thing, they expect more out of you at the dojo but aside from that and I would say even more profoundly you expect more out of yourself. That is why some people, after making black belt, will train even harder than they did before.


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## PhotonGuy

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One of my students has been with me for 12 years. He is more interested in testing his MA skill in local MMA gyms than to take his 1st degree black belt test that he was qualified to take 4 years ago.



So maybe he just doesn't care for the black belt, to each their own.


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## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> I had a friend who was held back from first dan due to some problems with self discipline. He was angry about being held back, which only served to illustrate his lack of self control and poor training mentality. It was pretty much certain that he would attain the grade at some point as he was a talent, but his total focus on it as a goal put him in a bad place in terms of emotional investment.
> 
> Better just to train and enjoy the by-products as an when they might come. There is such a thing as too much passion.


So your friend must train at a place where, for the black belt, they don't just require you to attain a certain skill level but where they also require you to display other attributes such as patience and self discipline. So your friend even though he might meet the skill requirement doesn't meet the other requirements and thus is being held back, that's the impression I get from what you're saying.

As for having too much passion, try telling that to somebody such as Bruce Lee.


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## Tony Dismukes

PhotonGuy said:


> For people who continue their journey I would say it is another day of training but you also do reach a new leg, at least from my experience. After you make black belt it doesn't get easier it gets harder. For one thing, they expect more out of you at the dojo but aside from that and I would say even more profoundly you expect more out of yourself. That is why some people, after making black belt, will train even harder than they did before.


 Yep. Since getting awarded my BJJ black belt I've been training and studying even more than previously. I'm very aware of all the areas I need to improve in order to meet my own standards for the rank.

In fact, the more I learn in general, the further any sort of mastery seems to recede in the distance. More and more I walk into class half-convinced that I don't know anything and I'm almost surprised when I'm able to answer questions and solve problems for students in a helpful way.


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## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> As for having too much passion, try telling that to somebody such as Bruce Lee.



Bruce Lee never had or cared about a black belt either.

There are no belt ranks in traditional Chinese marital arts, those showed up later after CMA went to the West. Oh and there were no belt ranks in Bruce Lee's JKD either.


From an article "On Being Different" by Bill Bunting found on Taoism.net 

Substitute Martial Artist for Taoist and you get the idea. You can also substitute “Karate School” for any martial art you like



> There are very few who understand that to train the mind and spirit, one must also subdue the body.  In this simple paragraph lies one of the greatest differences, and one that is most difficult to overcome. In the west, and sadly more often now in the east, the philosophy of instant gratification, a quick fix, and easy riches is the religion of the moment. In dojo after dojo (Karate schools) time and again, young children and unqualified adults are given rank by instructors who take their money for two years and teach them nothing of how life and the universe works. In the west with very few exceptions, the real meaning of the training, to aid in the establishment of enlightenment, has been lost, and it has been lost to the idol of wealth. The sage knows that to truly master even one system may take a lifetime,  and it is not the technique or the ability to break things that is important, but the discipline, the knowledge and the wisdom that are acquired by conditioning the body, mind and spirit to all move as one. It is harmony and peace and unity with the Tao that we seek, not the colorful belt on the uniform. As Taoists, we seek the Tao in terms of lifetimes, not years, and the journey is not measured in distance traveled, or in distance yet to go, but in the now.


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## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> So your friend must train at a place where, for the black belt, they don't just require you to attain a certain skill level but where they also require you to display other attributes such as patience and self discipline. So your friend even though he might meet the skill requirement doesn't meet the other requirements and thus is being held back, that's the impression I get from what you're saying.
> 
> As for having too much passion, try telling that to somebody such as Bruce Lee.


They don't require you to display those characteristics, but if you obviously display a lack of those characteristics, or others that the tenets of Taekwondo describe, then that's a problem.

Bruce Lee may have loved his art, but he was not so in love with it as to be led by his emotions. That's what I mean by too much passion.


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## Buka

Tony Dismukes said:


> In fact, the more I learn in general, the further any sort of mastery seems to recede in the distance. More and more I walk into class half-convinced that I don't know anything and I'm almost surprised when I'm able to answer questions and solve problems for students in a helpful way.



Amen, brother. It's a pretty big club we belong to.


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## PhotonGuy

Xue Sheng said:


> Bruce Lee never had or cared about a black belt either.
> 
> There are no belt ranks in traditional Chinese marital arts, those showed up later after CMA went to the West. Oh and there were no belt ranks in Bruce Lee's JKD either.
> 
> 
> From an article "On Being Different" by Bill Bunting found on Taoism.net
> 
> Substitute Martial Artist for Taoist and you get the idea. You can also substitute “Karate School” for any martial art you like



Well nevertheless Bruce Lee was very passionate about his training. True, his styles didn't use belts or any kind of ranking system but he was just very passionate about the styles themselves and the training and about being the best he could be. As far as Bruce Lee was concerned you could never be too passionate.


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## Balrog

Belt rankings are simply milestones along the journey. 

I tell all my new students that the first major goal they will set is to achieve 1st Degree Black Belt.  That's like setting a goal to graduate from high school.  You've hopefully spent several years learning the basics; now it's time to go to college and really learn the art.


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## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> Well nevertheless Bruce Lee was very passionate about his training. True, his styles didn't use belts or any kind of ranking system but he was just very passionate about the styles themselves and the training and about being the best he could be. As far as Bruce Lee was concerned you could never be too passionate.



"Emotional content. Not anger."

In the film 'Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do', Bruce tells actor James Coburn, who is trying to throw a side kick, "You are trying too much to control the movement, and by too much control, you're too concerned about its execution. Therefore you're too tight." It seems the idea of too much passion, or trying too hard, was one that was not alien to Bruce.


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## Xue Sheng

Gnarlie said:


> "Emotional content. Not anger."
> 
> In the film 'Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do', Bruce tells actor James Coburn, who is trying to throw a side kick, "You are trying too much to control the movement, and by too much control, you're too concerned about its execution. Therefore you're too tight." It seems the idea of too much passion, or trying too hard, was one that was not alien to Bruce.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Bruce was passionate about martial arts and philosophy, of that I have no doubt, he absorbed all he could about everything he saw about either subject. However the execution (not just Bruce Lee, but most CMA styles) is highly dependent on relaxation since all power comes from the root and being to tense or stiffening your muscles only impedes that execution and power. So trying to hard is going to happen, but one needs to relax and not try so hard for proper execution of any given attack or defense. But passion is something entirely different.


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## pgsmith

PhotonGuy said:


> As for having too much passion, try telling that to somebody such as Bruce Lee.



  Sorry to have to tell you this but he's dead, and so won't be able to answer you.


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## PhotonGuy

Balrog said:


> Belt rankings are simply milestones along the journey.
> 
> I tell all my new students that the first major goal they will set is to achieve 1st Degree Black Belt.  That's like setting a goal to graduate from high school.  You've hopefully spent several years learning the basics; now it's time to go to college and really learn the art.


I would have to agree.


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## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> They don't require you to display those characteristics, but if you obviously display a lack of those characteristics, or others that the tenets of Taekwondo describe, then that's a problem.
> 
> Bruce Lee may have loved his art, but he was not so in love with it as to be led by his emotions. That's what I mean by too much passion.



If your friend knew exactly why he was being held back than he would know what he needs to work on. That's what's important, knowing why you're being held back so you know what you need to work on and fix so that you won't be held back.

And Bruce Lee was not led by his emotions but he used them to his advantage. He was not driven, he was the driver. But he did train really hard, some people might say he was too extreme. He would be doing drills with the wooden dummy, his friends would go out for pizza and when they came back he would still be doing the drills and he would say he was almost done and then he would switch to his other hand. I don't know if you would call that too passionate.


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## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> If your friend knew exactly why he was being held back than he would know what he needs to work on. That's what's important, knowing why you're being held back so you know what you need to work on and fix so that you won't be held back.



Or, maybe he/she shouldn't be spoon fed. One of the desirable behaviours implicit within the tenets is self-reflection. A person should be able to consider their own behaviour and critically appraise it.

The individual in question displayed a very quick temper and an inability to control it. There were a number of occasions where this was an issue, two of which involved physically violent outbursts. His next grading was first dan. Would you have held him back? It was obvious to him and everyone else why.


PhotonGuy said:


> And Bruce Lee was not led by his emotions but he used them to his advantage. He was not driven, he was the driver. But he did train really hard, some people might say he was too extreme. He would be doing drills with the wooden dummy, his friends would go out for pizza and when they came back he would still be doing the drills and he would say he was almost done and then he would switch to his other hand. I don't know if you would call that too passionate.



I don't really care about Bruce Lee TBH, you brought him up. He is a dead martial artist. I concern myself more with living ones. I maintain that there is a state of high emotion which is undesirable in Taekwondo, and those who display that level of passion also display a lack of self control. As self control is one of the tenets, that person still has a way to go on their journey.

I would also have a problem promoting someone whose mantra from white belt on were 'I want to be a black belt' or 'I want to be a master' and for that reason wanted to take every test as soon as possible. Modesty combined with self-reflection should encourage a person to critically appraise their own abilities and see a need for consolidation and improvement.

I want my students to realise and keep a higher standard for themselves than the standards set out at testing. They know this, and most of them do.


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## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> Or, maybe he/she shouldn't be spoon fed. One of the desirable behaviours implicit within the tenets is self-reflection. A person should be able to consider their own behaviour and critically appraise it.


Just what do you mean by spoon fed? If you mean that, by spoon feeding, somebody else is taking the test for you or helping you with the test than from my experience, you can't be spoon fed in the martial arts. All the places where I've trained you have to take the test yourself without help if you want to pass. If by being spoon fed you mean that a person is told that they aren't behaving properly than I can see, to some extent, that a person should know that beforehand. 



Gnarlie said:


> The individual in question displayed a very quick temper and an inability to control it. There were a number of occasions where this was an issue, two of which involved physically violent outbursts. His next grading was first dan. Would you have held him back? It was obvious to him and everyone else why.


In lots of dojos he might not last. Students who act like that are sometimes expelled and banned. So if he was at a dojo that I was running I probably would've expelled him far before he got to the grading before first dan. As it is, though, such an attitude would probably hinder your skill progression in the martial arts. With his problems I don't see how he would've ever gotten to be at the level he was which you said was one notch below black belt. As its been posted here before, trying too hard and becoming too uptight can ruin your technique. So I don't see how he would've developed the skill level of 1st dan or anywhere close to it if he was like that.



Gnarlie said:


> I don't really care about Bruce Lee TBH, you brought him up. He is a dead martial artist. I concern myself more with living ones. I maintain that there is a state of high emotion which is undesirable in Taekwondo, and those who display that level of passion also display a lack of self control. As self control is one of the tenets, that person still has a way to go on their journey.


Dead people can be just as influential, if not more so, than living people. Just because somebody is dead doesn't mean you should dismiss them. As far as emotion is concerned, its fine to have emotion as long as you control it and not the other way around. When you're in control, emotion can be used to great advantage. Take for instance fear, a very strong emotion. You could say fear is a fire burning inside you, if you control it than it will make you hot, if it controls you it will burn you up. Actually it was from Rocky V that I got that but the concept is true. You mention the importance of self control and that's where controlling your emotions comes in. Strong emotions are fine as long as you have the self control to handle them. 



Gnarlie said:


> I would also have a problem promoting someone whose mantra from white belt on were 'I want to be a black belt' or 'I want to be a master' and for that reason wanted to take every test as soon as possible. Modesty combined with self-reflection should encourage a person to critically appraise their own abilities and see a need for consolidation and improvement.


The problem with that is once you do become a black belt or a master than what? Black belt and master are just milestones along the journey as I said before in this thread. Also, I think a white belt focusing too much on the black belt is getting ahead of themselves, much like the parable about the student who was told the harder he worked at becoming a master swordsman the longer it would take him and was told, "When there is one eye fixed upon your destination, there is only one eye left with which to find the way." A white belt should be focusing on whatever belt is next up such as yellow belt as it is in my style. As for the black belt, you cross that bridge when you get to it. Its important however, that when you do get to that bridge, that you cross it. 

On a side note, how do you feel about academic students who since day 1 in school has a mantra that, "I want straight As," and/or "I want a Ph. D."? How about college students who take a heavier than usual coarse load because they want a degree sooner? I've known students that've done that.



Gnarlie said:


> I want my students to realise and keep a higher standard for themselves than the standards set out at testing. They know this, and most of them do.



Most of your students must be good students than. I also like to go way above and beyond the standards of the tests instead of just scraping by as some people do.


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## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> Just what do you mean by spoon fed? If you mean that, by spoon feeding, somebody else is taking the test for you or helping you with the test than from my experience, you can't be spoon fed in the martial arts. All the places where I've trained you have to take the test yourself without help if you want to pass. If by being spoon fed you mean that a person is told that they aren't behaving properly than I can see, to some extent, that a person should know that beforehand.


I mean the latter, although I also wouldn't spoon feed people technique, for example if you are taught different types of steps and then separately taught back kick, then it is up to you to experiment and practice steps with back kick. It shouldn't just be on the instructor to spoon feed every last detail, the student has to put some experimentation and thought in too. 



PhotonGuy said:


> In lots of dojos he might not last. Students who act like that are sometimes expelled and banned. So if he was at a dojo that I was running I probably would've expelled him far before he got to the grading before first dan. As it is, though, such an attitude would probably hinder your skill progression in the martial arts. With his problems I don't see how he would've ever gotten to be at the level he was which you said was one notch below black belt. As its been posted here before, trying too hard and becoming too uptight can ruin your technique. So I don't see how he would've developed the skill level of 1st dan or anywhere close to it if he was like that.


As is often the case, he was a great physical talent, but with some issues beside that. We were willing to take him up to 1st Keup based on technique alone, and the fact that generally day to day he was fine.  But the temper had to come under control for 1st dan. 



PhotonGuy said:


> Dead people can be just as influential, if not more so, than living people. Just because somebody is dead doesn't mean you should dismiss them.


Absolutely they can. I just think Bruce Lee is not particularly that relevant to the discussion. He was passionate about his training, yes, but that is not the sort of passion that I meant, which is the negative kind. The kind that drives stalkers, or causes crimes of passion, for example. Where emotion overtakes a person's actions. 


PhotonGuy said:


> As far as emotion is concerned, its fine to have emotion as long as you control it and not the other way around. When you're in control, emotion can be used to great advantage. Take for instance fear, a very strong emotion. You could say fear is a fire burning inside you, if you control it than it will make you hot, if it controls you it will burn you up. Actually it was from Rocky V that I got that but the concept is true. You mention the importance of self control and that's where controlling your emotions comes in. Strong emotions are fine as long as you have the self control to handle them.


That's my point. And if that self control is not there, one cannot expect to progress. 


PhotonGuy said:


> The problem with that is once you do become a black belt or a master than what? Black belt and master are just milestones along the journey as I said before in this thread. Also, I think a white belt focusing too much on the black belt is getting ahead of themselves, much like the parable about the student who was told the harder he worked at becoming a master swordsman the longer it would take him and was told, "When there is one eye fixed upon your destination, there is only one eye left with which to find the way." A white belt should be focusing on whatever belt is next up such as yellow belt as it is in my style. As for the black belt, you cross that bridge when you get to it. Its important however, that when you do get to that bridge, that you cross it.


Exactly. I almost want to say 'forget that goal. Look at this kick that we are training right now. Try to get that right. If you focus on what you are learning right now, black belt will happen. Master will happen.' This kind of person I would apply the testing brakes to, to help them realise that their training now is important, not their strutting around in a black piece of cloth later. 


PhotonGuy said:


> On a side note, how do you feel about academic students who since day 1 in school has a mantra that, "I want straight As," and/or "I want a Ph. D."? How about college students who take a heavier than usual coarse load because they want a degree sooner? I've known students that've done that.


It is different. It's not a physical set of skills being developed, and more importantly, martial arts encourages behavioural and attitude change and development as part of its core. Academic study does not. 


PhotonGuy said:


> Most of your students must be good students than. I also like to go way above and beyond the standards of the tests instead of just scraping by as some people do.



They are good. Those that aren't, don't test. Or they fail. Depending on how self aware they are, and what kind of message might get through. I strongly believe in keeping a higher standard. When you are sending 1st Keups to a national grading with 150 other 1st Keups from all over the country, you want your guys to stand out. For the right reasons.


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> On a side note, how do you feel about academic students who since day 1 in school has a mantra that, "I want straight As," and/or "I want a Ph. D."? How about college students who take a heavier than usual coarse load because they want a degree sooner? I've known students that've done that.



This is likely to have nothing to do with 'passion' and all to do with money. University _courses _cost money, a *lot* of money and students can come out of university with huge debts, they need to be finished as soon as they can to start earning to pay off them. Going to university is about your career, about having qualifications that enable you to get work and earn enough for you to live, marry perhaps, have a family it cannot be compared to training for a black belt.


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## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> I mean the latter, although I also wouldn't spoon feed people technique, for example if you are taught different types of steps and then separately taught back kick, then it is up to you to experiment and practice steps with back kick. It shouldn't just be on the instructor to spoon feed every last detail, the student has to put some experimentation and thought in too.


Well yes, from my experience you do have to find out what works best for you, what techniques you like the best, ect. I had this one instructor who said that if he was to teach a student exactly how he fought that he would at best produce an imperfect clone of himself. So you have to find out what works best for you and how to best incorporate what you've been taught. However, I have heard of some styles and instructors that do spoon feed you in that they have a very rigid training regime and you're expected to do exactly as they tell you which they do down to the letter.



Gnarlie said:


> As is often the case, he was a great physical talent, but with some issues beside that. We were willing to take him up to 1st Keup based on technique alone, and the fact that generally day to day he was fine.  But the temper had to come under control for 1st dan.


Well as I said, such a student wouldn't last in any place of mine, not if he had the issues you described. 



Gnarlie said:


> Absolutely they can. I just think Bruce Lee is not particularly that relevant to the discussion. He was passionate about his training, yes, but that is not the sort of passion that I meant, which is the negative kind. The kind that drives stalkers, or causes crimes of passion, for example. Where emotion overtakes a person's actions.


Well as I pointed out, the thing is for you to control your emotions not the other way around. If you do so you can harness them and use them to your best advantage.



Gnarlie said:


> That's my point. And if that self control is not there, one cannot expect to progress.
> 
> Exactly. I almost want to say 'forget that goal. Look at this kick that we are training right now. Try to get that right. If you focus on what you are learning right now, black belt will happen. Master will happen.' This kind of person I would apply the testing brakes to, to help them realise that their training now is important, not their strutting around in a black piece of cloth later.


Well that's what a beginner student is probably most interested in, learning all the great new stuff. On my first day as a white belt I was very excited about learning the reverse punch, the first technique I was taught. I wasn't so concerned with the black belt at the time since that was way ahead and I was just absorbing all the material I was being presented with. However, I don't see why somebody whose one notch under a black belt, in lots of styles that would be a black belt, shouldn't be concerned with the black belt if that's what they want to get.



Gnarlie said:


> They are good. Those that aren't, don't test. Or they fail. Depending on how self aware they are, and what kind of message might get through. I strongly believe in keeping a higher standard. When you are sending 1st Keups to a national grading with 150 other 1st Keups from all over the country, you want your guys to stand out. For the right reasons.



Your place must be part of a much bigger organization if your students are sent to a place with 150 other people who are all testing. If I ran such a place I would want my students to stand out, but if Im taking the test, I want to stand out among all the other people taking it.


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## PhotonGuy

So this thread has died down a bit but some people have made some good points, particularly Gnarlie about not letting your emotions control you and about not to be overly obsessed with high belts when you first start out but rather to be focusing on what is being taught to you at the here and now. However, I don't see a problem with focusing on whatever belt is next up for you, and that includes a higher belt if you're up at that level.


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## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> However, I don't see a problem with focusing on whatever belt is next up for you, and that includes a higher belt if you're up at that level.



Then focus on it if you want and I won't, just like I want...... the end


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## PhotonGuy

Xue Sheng said:


> Then focus on it if you want and I won't, just like I want...... the end



Your choice. And besides, do your styles even use rank?


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## Instructor

Before I was a black belt it really mattered to me.  After I got my first black belt it wasn't such a big deal anymore.  I've earned a couple more since then and I rarely even take it out of the bag anymore.
I guess for me the part of martial arts I cherish the most at this point is the strong friendships I've made, the great memories of training with them, and the pure joy of doing the art.  However much I've learned is as nothing compared to what I still need to learn.


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## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> Your choice. And besides, do your styles even use rank?



They use to, and I didn't really care about ranks then either. However the styles I train now have no rank and I still don't care about rank


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## Instructor

One thing I will say is that in many systems black belt is the minimum rank to teach others and getting the ability to teach others is a HUGE thing.


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## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> So this thread has died down a bit but some people have made some good points, particularly Gnarlie about not letting your emotions control you and about not to be overly obsessed with high belts when you first start out but rather to be focusing on what is being taught to you at the here and now. However, I don't see a problem with focusing on whatever belt is next up for you, and that includes a higher belt if you're up at that level.


Always focus on what you are doing now and the next belt comes as an automatic by-product at some point. Always focus on the belt itself and it may never come.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Xue Sheng said:


> They use to, and I didn't really care about ranks then either. However the styles I train now have no rank and I still don't care about rank



Well you're not the only one here who has that position. If that is your position, though, than some of the stuff I say would not apply to you.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Instructor said:


> One thing I will say is that in many systems black belt is the minimum rank to teach others and getting the ability to teach others is a HUGE thing.



At my place, and at lots of places, you start teaching as a brown belt, just as an assistant though.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> Always focus on what you are doing now and the next belt comes as an automatic by-product at some point. Always focus on the belt itself and it may never come.



Agreed but you still do need to have some focus on the next belt. At the very least you need to know what the requirements are for the next belt and what you need to work on to meet those requirements.


----------



## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> Well you're not the only one here who has that position. If that is your position, though, than some of the stuff I say would not apply to you.



which is why I typed

Then focus on it if you want and I won't, just like I want...... the end


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> Agreed but you still do need to have some focus on the next belt. At the very least you need to know what the requirements are for the next belt and what you need to work on to meet those requirements.



That's not necessarily true, your instructor needs to know the requirements. You just need to concentrate on what you are being taught.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Xue Sheng said:


> which is why I typed
> 
> Then focus on it if you want and I won't, just like I want...... the end



OK good, and happy training.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> That's not necessarily true, your instructor needs to know the requirements. You just need to concentrate on what you are being taught.


Obviously your instructor will know the requirements since he sets them. Its the student who needs to know so they will know what they need to work on. As for concentrating on what you're being taught, unless you're taking entirely private lessons its impossible for classes to be custom tailored to each student's needs as there are multiple students each with their own strengths and weaknesses, each with their own areas where they need work. Therefore sometimes it makes sense for a student to ask the Sensei about specific requirements or areas where they're lacking.

Case in point, there was a high brown belt student at my place who wanted to test for his black belt. He asked the Sensei about it and the Sensei said he wasn't ready and to work more on his round kick. So he didn't test that time and he worked on his round kick as the Sensei said he should and he tested the next time around and passed and got a black belt. So that student did the smart thing, he used his mouth and he then followed the Sensei's advice and he worked hard and that way he was able to get his black belt, makes sense doesn't it?


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> Always focus on what you are doing now and the next belt comes as an automatic by-product at some point. Always focus on the belt itself and it may never come.



How do you avoid stagnation without goal setting? I mean you could just goal set off your own bat but when there is a system in place it would be like trying to reinvent the wheel.


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## Gnarlie

I am and was able to avoid stagnation because a good instructor teaches the right thing to the right person at the right time, in a progressive manner.  Groups are split by grade and ability. 

Students don't know what they don't know, and for that reason often are not in a position to set goals or ask the right questions to take them where they need to go.

There's no problem with asking questions in general, or asking for specific feedback. But the question 'what do I need to focus on to get the next belt', misses the point of training, which is the training itself and the abilities it develops, and not the belt itself.

Focusing on the belt itself shows a lack of maturity in training approach and a preoccupation with status. Fine at yellow belt but undesirable in a more senior grade.


----------



## Gnarlie

Walking a path is not defined by the milestones you pass on the way, but what you experience on the path between them.

A milestone might be a reason to briefly celebrate, rest and take stock, but no more. 

Asking 'what do I need to do' is like asking 'how many steps are left to the next milestone?'.  Effectively it makes you the child in the back seat asking 'are we nearly there yet?'. 

The instructor's counter question, which they may or may not ask out loud, is 'Why do you ask, is this trip boring you?'


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## Gnarlie

Early on, we rush from milestone to milestone, telling the world and ourselves 'look how much ground I have covered'. Later, we realise the path is an ascending spiral which has no end, and we slow down and start to enjoy the scenery, breathing, and the act of putting one foot in front of the other.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> I am and was able to avoid stagnation because a good instructor teaches the right thing to the right person at the right time, in a progressive manner.  Groups are split by grade and ability.


At my place, people of all different ranks train together and do the same drills although when you do partner drills you would usually have a partner whose of the same or close to the same rank as you. The exception would be katas where for each belt there is a specific kata you learn for advancement and each time you go up a belt you learn the kata for the next belt.



Gnarlie said:


> Students don't know what they don't know, and for that reason often are not in a position to set goals or ask the right questions to take them where they need to go.
> 
> There's no problem with asking questions in general, or asking for specific feedback. But the question 'what do I need to focus on to get the next belt', misses the point of training, which is the training itself and the abilities it develops, and not the belt itself.
> 
> Focusing on the belt itself shows a lack of maturity in training approach and a preoccupation with status. Fine at yellow belt but undesirable in a more senior grade.


As for students not knowing what they don't know that's true enough at the lower belts but at higher belts when a student knows so much more than when they first stated out, not so much. If anything, I would say more questions are necessary at the higher belts when there is more knowledge to absorb and more stuff you've got to know. Its at the higher belts when you realize just how much you don't know so that's the time to start asking.

And focus should be first and foremost on the training but there is nothing wrong with wanting the next belt and having that as a goal, much like an academic student should focus first and foremost on the material and the studying but still wants to get an A, even if that's not their primary focus.



Gnarlie said:


> Asking 'what do I need to do' is like asking 'how many steps are left to the next milestone?'.  Effectively it makes you the child in the back seat asking 'are we nearly there yet?'.
> 
> The instructor's counter question, which they may or may not ask out loud, is 'Why do you ask, is this trip boring you?'



Asking what you need to do to get to the next belt is so that you know that you're headed in the right direction. Its not the same as the child in the back seat asking if we're nearly there yet, that would be more like a student asking their sensei when they're going to test which some people have said is disrespectful. As some people have pointed out for questions such as, "When am I going to test?" the answer would be, "when you're ready." Or, "when am I going to get my next belt?" the answer would be, "when you deserve it." Fair enough. But what Im talking about is not asking when Im going to test but rather asking what I need to do to be ready to test or what I need to do to bring myself up to par to meet my sensei's standards for the next belt. That way I know Im headed in the right direction to the next milestone. Otherwise you might just stay at the belt you're at indefinitely.

Much like my friend who got his black belt after he worked on his round kick but first he had to know that it was the round kick he had to work on. He got the black belt by working hard of course, but also by using his mouth. Do you see anything wrong with what my friend did? He did get his black belt after all.

You've got a mouth, you've got to use it.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> At my place, people of all different ranks train together and do the same drills although when you do partner drills you would usually have a partner whose of the same or close to the same rank as you. The exception would be katas where for each belt there is a specific kata you learn for advancement and each time you go up a belt you learn the kata for the next belt.


As I said, a good instructor. 


PhotonGuy said:


> As for students not knowing what they don't know that's true enough at the lower belts but at higher belts when a student knows so much more than when they first stated out, not so much. If anything, I would say more questions are necessary at the higher belts when there is more knowledge to absorb and more stuff you've got to know. Its at the higher belts when you realize just how much you don't know so that's the time to start asking.


I still know nothing, and I don't know what I don't know. I train the things I am aware I am weak at. Belts happen. 


PhotonGuy said:


> And focus should be first and foremost on the training but there is nothing wrong with wanting the next belt and having that as a goal, much like an academic student should focus first and foremost on the material and the studying but still wants to get an A, even if that's not their primary focus.


I just don't assign that much significance to coloured pieces of cloth. Or academic qualifications, for that matter. Ability and experience is worth so much more in the real world. 


PhotonGuy said:


> Asking what you need to do to get to the next belt is so that you know that you're headed in the right direction. Its not the same as the child in the back seat asking if we're nearly there yet, that would be more like a student asking their sensei when they're going to test which some people have said is disrespectful. As some people have pointed out for questions such as, "When am I going to test?" the answer would be, "when you're ready." Or, "when am I going to get my next belt?" the answer would be, "when you deserve it." Fair enough. But what Im talking about is not asking when Im going to test but rather asking what I need to do to be ready to test or what I need to do to bring myself up to par to meet my sensei's standards for the next belt. That way I know Im headed in the right direction to the next milestone. Otherwise you might just stay at the belt you're at indefinitely.


It is your instructors job to keep you on track. It is up to him or her to train you in the abilities that you need. You just have to shut up and train and you will get there. So you might stay at the same belt for a while. If you do, it is because you need to. And the end product is deeper ingrained skill. 


PhotonGuy said:


> Much like my friend who got his black belt after he worked on his round kick but first he had to know that it was the round kick he had to work on. He got the black belt by working hard of course, but also by using his mouth. Do you see anything wrong with what my friend did? He did get his black belt after all.
> 
> You've got a mouth, you've got to use it.



You don't need a mouth to shut up and train. The question in my mind is why wasn't your friend already aware of his own weakness when going for first dan...he should not have needed to be spoon fed, and that's a failure on both his and the instructor's part IMO.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> It is your instructors job to keep you on track. It is up to him or her to train you in the abilities that you need. You just have to shut up and train and you will get there. So you might stay at the same belt for a while. If you do, it is because you need to. And the end product is deeper ingrained skill.


That is not how all instructors function. At my place testing for rank is optional and there are some students who will get to a certain belt and then stop pursuing rank. For instance, there are brown belt students at my place who after getting to brown belt have stopped caring about any further rank advancement. There are of course, some people who go into the martial arts who could care less about any rank whatsoever and my instructor is fine with that, but if you do want to pursue rank it is up to you as a student to ask the sensei about it. The sensei might tell you that you're not ready but it is up to you as a student to ask for the form to sign up for the test in the first place, my sensei expects you to take the initiative on that and if you don't than he just assumes that you don't care to advance in rank. He's good with that but if you're a student who wants to advance and you just "shut up and train," and don't say anything or ask any questions, you will stay at the belt you're at not just for a while but forever, or at least as long as you take that approach.



Gnarlie said:


> You don't need a mouth to shut up and train.


Obviously you don't since a mouth is used to do the opposite but I think what you meant to say was something along the lines of, "just because you've got a mouth doesn't mean you can't shut up and train."



Gnarlie said:


> The question in my mind is why wasn't your friend already aware of his own weakness when going for first dan...he should not have needed to be spoon fed, and that's a failure on both his and the instructor's part IMO.


As I stated before its the instructor who sets the standards so he knows them best and he knows best how a student falls short of them. Therefore it can be a good idea for a student to ask if they meet the instructor's standards and if they don't what they're lagging behind in if for any reason at all, just to clarify it. A student might find out for themselves that their round kick or whatever needs work but they should still clarify it with the instructor just for good measure and to be absolutely sure. If you consider that spoon feeding and if you can figure everything out yourself why even take lessons in the first place? Why not just be your own Sensei if you can teach yourself everything and you don't want to be, as you put it, spoon fed? To each their own but I see no point in re-inventing the wheel.

I took a tactical shooting class and you could say that tactical shooting is a martial art. You learn stances for shooting, you learn specific techniques for drawing and firing weapons and you learn tactical movement. Anyway, at the class, before we took a break for lunch the instructor wanted the class to ask at least two questions. Clearly they didn't expect us to just "shut up and train." The thing is, taking the approach of, "shut up and train," is sometimes a good idea but its not always the best thing to do depending on what the student wants to get out of the art. I speak from my own experience. One of the reasons I preach so much against always taking the, "shut up and train" approach is because I made that mistake myself.

Anyway, Im getting the impression that like some of the others you just don't care about rank. That's all fine and good but if that's the case than like I said before, some of the stuff I say wouldn't apply to you.


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## Gnarlie

I am not suggesting that I teach myself, just that I concentrate on  understanding and learning what I am being taught.

If you were to ask me these questions as your instructor, I would be disappointed, because I would have already taught you how to do those things, and we would have trained them together many many times over. I would expect you to understand and be able to visualise what a round kick should look like based on that training, and make your own efforts toward improving it. If you were for example too tense, I'd have told you that many times during our training. You wouldn't need to ask what to work on. You would just need to crack on and practice.

If you a) let yourself and b)your instructor lets you, get to first dan with a dodgy round kick, then something has failed in a) the training and b) the teaching. 

Maybe it is too much focus on belt progress and testing, and not enough focus on actual training.


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## Gnarlie

In our club we use a couple of in house created sequences of movements to communicate basic techniques and movements like stepping. 

Some people ask in their first lesson if we have it written down. 

The answer is no, because if the person trains regularly they will pick it up long before they end up getting tested on it.

If there is a structured syllabus and a structured teaching methodology, there is not a need to communicate grading and testing requirements directly to students. This leaves the student free to focus where they need to, and avoids the need to teach to the test.


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## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> Early on, we rush from milestone to milestone, telling the world and ourselves 'look how much ground I have covered'. Later, we realise the path is an ascending spiral which has no end, and we slow down and start to enjoy the scenery, breathing, and the act of putting one foot in front of the other.



I don't really believe that. I have seen plenty of older people turn around and say they have ambled. Through life enough and want to achieve that milestone.

Otherwise old people would never get black belts.

Again you make goal setting to be a thing of immaturity. And Other than prose I am not sure that is a realistic argument.


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> I am not suggesting that I teach myself, just that I concentrate on  understanding and learning what I am being taught.
> 
> If you were to ask me these questions as your instructor, I would be disappointed, because I would have already taught you how to do those things, and we would have trained them together many many times over. I would expect you to understand and be able to visualise what a round kick should look like based on that training, and make your own efforts toward improving it. If you were for example too tense, I'd have told you that many times during our training. You wouldn't need to ask what to work on. You would just need to crack on and practice.
> 
> If you a) let yourself and b)your instructor lets you, get to first dan with a dodgy round kick, then something has failed in a) the training and b) the teaching.
> 
> Maybe it is too much focus on belt progress and testing, and not enough focus on actual training.



That is a kind of different outlook for me. As I am going through a process of cleaning up my technique at the moment. Getting that 1% neatened up.


----------



## Gnarlie

drop bear said:


> I don't really believe that. I have seen plenty of older people turn around and say they have ambled. Through life enough and want to achieve that milestone.
> 
> Otherwise old people would never get black belts.
> 
> Again you make goal setting to be a thing of immaturity. And Other than prose I am not sure that is a realistic argument.



Again, I am not suggesting not making progress or not moving forward. 

Just focusing on what is real: the present. 

Old people can make just as much progress as anyone else by displaying mindfulness.

No problem with goal setting. No problem with having a goal. The belt being the goal is the problem.


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> I am not suggesting that I teach myself, just that I concentrate on  understanding and learning what I am being taught.
> 
> If you were to ask me these questions as your instructor, I would be disappointed, because I would have already taught you how to do those things, and we would have trained them together many many times over. I would expect you to understand and be able to visualise what a round kick should look like based on that training, and make your own efforts toward improving it. If you were for example too tense, I'd have told you that many times during our training. You wouldn't need to ask what to work on. You would just need to crack on and practice.
> 
> If you a) let yourself and b)your instructor lets you, get to first dan with a dodgy round kick, then something has failed in a) the training and b) the teaching.
> 
> Maybe it is too much focus on belt progress and testing, and not enough focus on actual training.



I just had a thought about this. Disappointed in who. His inability to learn. Or your inability to teach?

This is kind of important because I know a few students that face that issue. And the "I have already taught you that" has been thrown out there from time to time.


----------



## Gnarlie

drop bear said:


> I just had a thought about this. Disappointed in who. His inability to learn. Or your inability to teach?
> 
> This is kind of important because I know a few students that face that issue. And the "I have already taught you that" has been thrown out there from time to time.


It was hypothetical situation - in reality it doesn't reach that stage because I make sure I keep ongoing communication with the people I teach during their training. They have the opportunity to see, train, and be corrected on their movements every time we train. They have the ongoing opportunity to ask questions to help them visualise and create the movements. They are only taught and trained in what is relevant to them at their current level. 

This makes the question 'what do I need to work on for my next test' unnecessary, and in the case of it being asked it would demonstrate:

1) That the student hadn't listened during training
2) That the student had not taken the opportunity to ask questions during demonstration and first contact phases of training where they did not understand
3) That the student was more focused on the test than their abilities
4) That the student had not accepted responsibility for their own development
5) That the student is not able to reflect on their own abilities and see what they need to work on

Just to be clear: I welcome technical questions during the visualisation, first contact and review stages of teaching. During the practice phase, it's shut up and train.

The 'what do I need to work on' question never needs to be asked in such a structure, as the answer is abundantly clear:

'Everything before and since the last test. Figure out and work on your weak points.'


----------



## Gnarlie

Additionally, there are some issues like trunk twist power generation, that students early in their journey are not ready to perceive or visualise. A lot of 'I already taught you that' comes from instructors failing to structure what they teach to take into account this effect.


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## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> Again, I am not suggesting not making progress or not moving forward.
> 
> Just focusing on what is real: the present.
> 
> Old people can make just as much progress as anyone else by displaying mindfulness.
> 
> No problem with goal setting. No problem with having a goal. The belt being the goal is the problem.



Ok. But you have a belt system that could be used to inspire people to be mindful. And you then actively deter that notion.


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> It was hypothetical situation - in reality it doesn't reach that stage because I make sure I keep ongoing communication with the people I teach during their training. They have the opportunity to see, train, and be corrected on their movements every time we train. They have the ongoing opportunity to ask questions to help them visualise and create the movements. They are only taught and trained in what is relevant to them at their current level.
> 
> This makes the question 'what do I need to work on for my next test' unnecessary, and in the case of it being asked it would demonstrate:
> 
> 1) That the student hadn't listened during training
> 2) That the student had not taken the opportunity to ask questions during demonstration and first contact phases of training where they did not understand
> 3) That the student was more focused on the test than their abilities
> 4) That the student had not accepted responsibility for their own development
> 5) That the student is not able to reflect on their own abilities and see what they need to work on
> 
> Just to be clear: I welcome technical questions during the visualisation, first contact and review stages of teaching. During the practice phase, it's shut up and train.
> 
> The 'what do I need to work on' question never needs to be asked in such a structure, as the answer is abundantly clear:
> 
> 'Everything before and since the last test. Figure out and work on your weak points.'



Wow. That is an interesting stance.


----------



## Gnarlie

drop bear said:


> Ok. But you have a belt system that could be used to inspire people to be mindful. And you then actively deter that notion.



On the contrary, I encourage people to focus on the training that will get them the belt, rather than the belt itself.

Sometimes between tests it's a case of, OK, here's your next belt. Wear it. Is your ability magically any better? No. So why focus on the belt as a goal when it is the training and the ability that is your real goal? The things that you are doing here and now.


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## Gnarlie

drop bear said:


> Wow. That is an interesting stance.



It prepares people for the post first dan experience, encourages them to take some responsibility for their own learning.


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> It prepares people for the post first dan experience, encourages them to take some responsibility for their own learning.



I don't think in reality it is as polarised as that. One way or the other. I would prefer to work under a model where both the instructor and the student are a bit flawed in their approach and the responsibility is in acknowledging that and finding methods to deal with it.


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> On the contrary, I encourage people to focus on the training that will get them the belt, rather than the belt itself.
> 
> Sometimes between tests it's a case of, OK, here's your next belt. Wear it. Is your ability magically any better? No. So why focus on the belt as a goal when it is the training and the ability that is your real goal? The things that you are doing here and now.



We do a 12 week camp before a fight to get the student in absolute tip top nick for what can be a very hard test.

What do you think would be the merit of approaching a grading in the same manner?


----------



## Gnarlie

drop bear said:


> I don't think in reality it is as polarised as that. One way or the other. I would prefer to work under a model where both the instructor and the student are a bit flawed in their approach and the responsibility is in acknowledging that and finding methods to deal with it.



I'm not claiming my approach is not flawed. I agree with what you have said above, and that would be my aim too. I just encourage people to take responsibility for their own progress.


----------



## Gnarlie

drop bear said:


> We do a 12 week camp before a fight to get the student in absolute tip top nick for what can be a very hard test.
> 
> What do you think would be the merit of approaching a grading in the same manner?



I do the same with students before first dan. But the focus is absolutely on their skills, not the test. If their skills are up to it, the test will be a matter of course. The old train hard fight easy adage.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> If you were to ask me these questions as your instructor, I would be disappointed, because I would have already taught you how to do those things, and we would have trained them together many many times over. I would expect you to understand and be able to visualise what a round kick should look like based on that training, and make your own efforts toward improving it. If you were for example too tense, I'd have told you that many times during our training. You wouldn't need to ask what to work on. You would just need to crack on and practice.


I see what you mean but if you were to tell me that I was too tense with my round kick I would work on making it looser, more relaxed. After some training I might ask you how Im doing since I want to see from the instructor's perspective how Im coming along with it. Its good to get instructor feedback. I also might ask if the round kick was good enough to pass on a test since the instructor sets the standards and would therefore know if my technique meets them.



Gnarlie said:


> If you a) let yourself and b)your instructor lets you, get to first dan with a dodgy round kick, then something has failed in a) the training and b) the teaching.


As I posted my friend did not get to 1st dan until he adequately improved his round kick. I don't see the failure on his part since all he did was what any student would have to do who wants to advance, he asked for the test form. It was than that the Sensei told him to work on his round kick. As for what was going through the student's mind at the time I don't know. Maybe he knew his round kick was lacking and had already been working on it but he didn't know that it still wasn't good enough to meet the Sensei's standards for black belt. This much is true though, the Sensei didn't wave a magic wand and automatically make the student's round kick better, the student made the round kick better himself by working on it. The student did end up testing and passing the next time because by then he had gotten his round kick up to the Sensei's standards and it was done through the student's own good hard work. So it was the student had to do the work not anybody else but the student alone so I don't see how that's spoon feeding.



Gnarlie said:


> Maybe it is too much focus on belt progress and testing, and not enough focus on actual training.



You're not going to get the belt without the training so if you want the belt you will have to focus on the training.


----------



## PhotonGuy

drop bear said:


> Again you make goal setting to be a thing of immaturity. And Other than prose I am not sure that is a realistic argument.



There is nothing wrong with goal setting. Im and American and although you will find exceptions, as a general rule Americans are very goal oriented and that's much of why America has developed into the great country it is.



Gnarlie said:


> Again, I am not suggesting not making progress or not moving forward.
> 
> Just focusing on what is real: the present.


You should focus on the present but its also important to look to the future, that is part of what goal setting is all about.



Gnarlie said:


> No problem with goal setting. No problem with having a goal. The belt being the goal is the problem.



Than you don't have to have getting a belt as your goal, not everybody does.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> I see what you mean but if you were to tell me that I was too tense with my round kick I would work on making it looser, more relaxed. After some training I might ask you how Im doing since I want to see from the instructor's perspective how Im coming along with it. Its good to get instructor feedback. I also might ask if the round kick was good enough to pass on a test since the instructor sets the standards and would therefore know if my technique meets them.



How about putting this another way: if you need to ask, it is not good enough. No problem with asking for and giving feedback, but that particular question "Is it good enough to pass the test?", would only be answered with "Well what do you think?"


PhotonGuy said:


> As I posted my friend did not get to 1st dan until he adequately improved his round kick. I don't see the failure on his part since all he did was what any student would have to do who wants to advance, he asked for the test form. It was than that the Sensei told him to work on his round kick. As for what was going through the student's mind at the time I don't know. Maybe he knew his round kick was lacking and had already been working on it but he didn't know that it still wasn't good enough to meet the Sensei's standards for black belt. This much is true though, the Sensei didn't wave a magic wand and automatically make the student's round kick better, the student made the round kick better himself by working on it. The student did end up testing and passing the next time because by then he had gotten his round kick up to the Sensei's standards and it was done through the student's own good hard work. So it was the student had to do the work not anybody else but the student alone so I don't see how that's spoon feeding.



Spoon feeding because the student should know by that point what the kick looks like and have practiced and be able to perform it to a degree where they are confident enough that they do not need to ask the question "Is it good enough". He shouldn't have taken the form if he needed to ask the question.


PhotonGuy said:


> You're not going to get the belt without the training so if you want the belt you will have to focus on the training.



Exactly. Only, where I am coming from, the training and ultimately its results are immeasurably more important than the bit of cloth.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> There is nothing wrong with goal setting. Im and American and although you will find exceptions, as a general rule Americans are very goal oriented and that's much of why America has developed into the great country it is.


Also one of the reasons why martial arts has become so commercialised in the US.


PhotonGuy said:


> You should focus on the present but its also important to look to the future, that is part of what goal setting is all about.


Whatever future you may visualise cannot be reached without focusing on the here and now. Arts that feature "Do" are all about the here and now. That is the point.


PhotonGuy said:


> Than you don't have to have getting a belt as your goal, not everybody does.



I don't, and people who do are in my view completely missing the point of training. Often they are the same people who are unable to apply and improvise using their martial skills in my experience. It is not to be learned like a parrot with the aim of getting the next belt. It is to be studied, mulled over, digested, picked apart, thrown out, reintroduced, rehashed, experimented with, pared down, developed, fleshed out, supported, etc.

Martial arts is not at its core "do this then do that. If he does this, then do that". It is what you make it, and making it your own and making it practical takes time and real focus on the present.

You can rush through belts as goal oriented as you like, but your skills will not be on par with someone who studies and develops the art to work for them.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> How about putting this another way: if you need to ask, it is not good enough. No problem with asking for and giving feedback, but that particular question "Is it good enough to pass the test?", would only be answered with "Well what do you think?"



I might think my technique is good enough but its the instructor who knows best. And besides, even if I know how good my technique is I don't know if they will meet the instructor's standards since the instructor sets the standards. That's where asking comes in. So if you ask me what I think I would say you set the standards so you would know best.



Gnarlie said:


> Spoon feeding because the student should know by that point what the kick looks like and have practiced and be able to perform it to a degree where they are confident enough that they do not need to ask the question "Is it good enough". He shouldn't have taken the form if he needed to ask the question.


The student didn't ask any questions about the kick, he just asked for the form and the Sensei told him to work on his round kick. He didn't get the form until after he got his kick up to par.



Gnarlie said:


> Exactly. Only, where I am coming from, the training and ultimately its results are immeasurably more important than the bit of cloth.


One of the results is the bit of cloth or at least knowing that you've met the standards set for getting the piece of cloth wherever you get it. 

If you say just getting a belt isn't a goal you would have neither would I. If my only goal was to get a belt I would go buy one for about $5.00 but rather, my specific goal was getting a black belt at the JKC. Getting a black belt at the JKC would certainly involve meeting the standards for getting it. At the JKC meeting the proper standards is mandatory for getting a black belt and that's how I would want it. I wouldn't want to get a "cheap" black belt my meeting shoddy standards but that's not a problem at the JKC because they don't set shoddy standards for black belt. Anywhere else I would be a white belt but that doesn't concern me. My goal was to get a black belt at the JKC by meeting the standards set there, my goal was to complete that challenge.


----------



## pgsmith

Gnarlie said:


> Also one of the reasons why martial arts has become so commercialised in the US.
> 
> Whatever future you may visualise cannot be reached without focusing on the here and now. Arts that feature "Do" are all about the here and now. That is the point.
> 
> I don't, and people who do are in my view completely missing the point of training. Often they are the same people who are unable to apply and improvise using their martial skills in my experience. It is not to be learned like a parrot with the aim of getting the next belt. It is to be studied, mulled over, digested, picked apart, thrown out, reintroduced, rehashed, experimented with, pared down, developed, fleshed out, supported, etc.
> 
> Martial arts is not at its core "do this then do that. If he does this, then do that". It is what you make it, and making it your own and making it practical takes time and real focus on the present.
> 
> You can rush through belts as goal oriented as you like, but your skills will not be on par with someone who studies and develops the art to work for them.


  However, it is important to remember that your view is only ONE view. One of my instructors was fond of saying that there are as many reasons for practicing martial as their are people practicing martial arts. We all have different goals and reasons for practicing. If someone else's goals and reasons are different from yours, that doesn't necessarily make them wrong in their goals, only wrong for *your* goals. There is just as much of a need for McDojos and Korner Karate studios as there is for traditional martial arts schools and effective fight schools. If there wasn't, they wouldn't exist.

  Just a devil's advocate viewpoint to mull over.


----------



## Gnarlie

pgsmith said:


> However, it is important to remember that your view is only ONE view. One of my instructors was fond of saying that there are as many reasons for practicing martial as their are people practicing martial arts. We all have different goals and reasons for practicing. If someone else's goals and reasons are different from yours, that doesn't necessarily make them wrong in their goals, only wrong for *your* goals. There is just as much of a need for McDojos and Korner Karate studios as there is for traditional martial arts schools and effective fight schools. If there wasn't, they wouldn't exist.
> 
> Just a devil's advocate viewpoint to mull over.


Completely agree.  Although I reserve the right to my opinion that they are missing the point! [emoji3]


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> Also one of the reasons why martial arts has become so commercialised in the US.
> 
> Whatever future you may visualise cannot be reached without focusing on the here and now. Arts that feature "Do" are all about the here and now. That is the point.


You do need to focus on the here and now but you also need to visualize possible futures that might be the result of what you do in the hear and now, so you need to do both.



Gnarlie said:


> I don't, and people who do are in my view completely missing the point of training. Often they are the same people who are unable to apply and improvise using their martial skills in my experience. It is not to be learned like a parrot with the aim of getting the next belt. It is to be studied, mulled over, digested, picked apart, thrown out, reintroduced, rehashed, experimented with, pared down, developed, fleshed out, supported, etc.
> 
> Martial arts is not at its core "do this then do that. If he does this, then do that". It is what you make it, and making it your own and making it practical takes time and real focus on the present.
> 
> You can rush through belts as goal oriented as you like, but your skills will not be on par with someone who studies and develops the art to work for them.



The fact of the matter is, if you run a dojo that uses belt ranks its inevitable that some students will have the goal of getting a certain belt or belts. The only way to not have any students with such a goal is to not have belt ranks in the first place. Not all places use belt ranks and this is just an observation of mine but based on what you've said on this board, if you run a place of your own you might want to run it like that, without belt ranks.


----------



## PhotonGuy

pgsmith said:


> However, it is important to remember that your view is only ONE view. One of my instructors was fond of saying that there are as many reasons for practicing martial as their are people practicing martial arts. We all have different goals and reasons for practicing.


Exactly, and that's why I think its important for an instructor to know why a student is there in the first place. Some instructors, actually this is quite common, for an instructor to try to motivate a student to practice what they're taught and train hard by saying stuff such as, "You want to get your black belt, don't you?" Maybe the student doesn't care about a black belt, or any belt for that matter. Maybe the student is taking up martial arts to get in good shape or lose weight. I once read a magazine article that addressed this. In that case the instructor would motivate the student much more by saying stuff such as, "By doing this drill you are burning off this many calories, ect." So its important for instructors to know why students are going into the martial arts and what they hope to get out of it, that way they can motivate them much more effectively.



pgsmith said:


> If someone else's goals and reasons are different from yours, that doesn't necessarily make them wrong in their goals, only wrong for *your* goals.


I've been pointing that out too. Although its quite obvious, its been shown on this board that there are people that have different goals than mine and vice versa. I respect that but to discuss a strategy for obtaining my goals would be pointless if its with somebody who doesn't have the same goals since stuff I say would not apply to them and vice versa.



pgsmith said:


> There is just as much of a need for McDojos and Korner Karate studios as there is for traditional martial arts schools and effective fight schools. If there wasn't, they wouldn't exist.


The McDojos do serve a good purpose, they act as filters in that students who are satisfied with going to McDojos can go there and therefore they won't be taking up space in the real martial arts places.


----------



## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> I've been pointing that out too. Although its quite obvious, its been shown on this board that there are people that have different goals than mine and vice versa. I respect that but to discuss a strategy for obtaining my goals would be pointless if its with somebody who doesn't have the same goals since stuff I say would not apply to them and vice versa.



What are you're goals then?


----------



## PhotonGuy

Transk53 said:


> What are you're goals then?



For my goal in the past see my post at #65 as for my goal right now is to just keep training and to keep getting better.


----------



## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> For my goal in the past see my post at #65 as for my goal right now is to just keep training and to keep getting better.



Start learning then. Keep you're core, but incorporate otherwise


----------



## Tony Dismukes

drop bear said:


> We do a 12 week camp before a fight to get the student in absolute tip top nick for what can be a very hard test.
> 
> What do you think would be the merit of approaching a grading in the same manner?



I don't think I'd care much for that approach myself. The fight camp is meant to get a fighter to the current peak performance they are capable of for a short time. I prefer to think of rank as indicating a student's consistent day-to-day performance rather than their peak capability. (This is also why I'm not a big fan of belt testing in general.)


----------



## PhotonGuy

So anyway, concerning some of the stuff discussed earlier about proper stuff to ask an instructor or coach or whatnot. I used to be a competitive swimmer. Once a year they had this special event called the North Meet. In order to swim in the North Meet you had to qualify. You qualified by beating a certain time, you had to swim fast enough to beat a specific entry time and then you would be allowed to swim in the North Meet. Now, how would you know the time you had to beat? By asking your coach. Asking your coach the time you had to beat to go to the North Meet was what any swimmer would do who wanted to go. Was asking the time you had to beat disrespectful? Would the coach be spoon feeding the swimmer by telling them the time they had to beat? In both cases, at least from the viewpoint of the swimmers and coach the answer was no. I see nothing disrespectful about asking what you need to do to achieve something whether its going to the North Meet or getting a belt or whatever and I don't see it as spoon feeding to be told what you need to do to achieve whatever your goal is. In order to reach a goal you've got to know what you need to do to get it and the way you find out is often by asking somebody who would know such as a coach or instructor.

As it was there were some swimmers who didn't care to go to the North Meet. Even some swimmers who could qualify simply had no desire to go to the North Meet, it just didn't appeal to them. For those swimmers, we respected that but the stuff I mentioned, asking the coach the time they needed to beat and so forth just wouldn't apply to them since going to the North Meet just wasn't their thing.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't think I'd care much for that approach myself. The fight camp is meant to get a fighter to the current peak performance they are capable of for a short time. I prefer to think of rank as indicating a student's consistent day-to-day performance rather than their peak capability. (This is also why I'm not a big fan of belt testing in general.)



I see what you mean and I agree. Fight camp can be good for somebody training for competition such as the UFC or a boxer training for a match, but its not something that should be used for belt tests. A belt test, at least the way its done at the places I've been to, is based on a student's accumulated knowledge and skill not a one time peak performance.


----------



## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> So anyway, concerning some of the stuff discussed earlier about proper stuff to ask an instructor or coach or whatnot. I used to be a competitive swimmer. Once a year they had this special event called the North Meet. In order to swim in the North Meet you had to qualify. You qualified by beating a certain time, you had to swim fast enough to beat a specific entry time and then you would be allowed to swim in the North Meet. Now, how would you know the time you had to beat? By asking your coach. Asking your coach the time you had to beat to go to the North Meet was what any swimmer would do who wanted to go. Was asking the time you had to beat disrespectful? Would the coach be spoon feeding the swimmer by telling them the time they had to beat? In both cases, at least from the viewpoint of the swimmers and coach the answer was no. I see nothing disrespectful about asking what you need to do to achieve something whether its going to the North Meet or getting a belt or whatever and I don't see it as spoon feeding to be told what you need to do to achieve whatever your goal is. In order to reach a goal you've got to know what you need to do to get it and the way you find out is often by asking somebody who would know such as a coach or instructor.
> 
> As it was there were some swimmers who didn't care to go to the North Meet. Even some swimmers who could qualify simply had no desire to go to the North Meet, it just didn't appeal to them. For those swimmers, we respected that but the stuff I mentioned, asking the coach the time they needed to beat and so forth just wouldn't apply to them since going to the North Meet just wasn't their thing.


My kids swim.  We have states and nationals with a qualifying times to enter.  My kids coach won't tell anyone the times needed.  They are told just swim your best and stop worrying about the times.  Stop thinking and swim


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Now, how would you know the time you had to beat? By asking your coach



The qualifying times for things such as this are either set by the organisers or the governing body. This means you can ask them, look at their entry forms, look online etc, the coach won't be the only one who knows the qualifying time. I imagine however in most cases it will be as Ballen says, the coach tells them to swim and they do then he decides what comps they go in for, if they do. You are paying the coach and he's giving the best instruction and coaching he can.


----------



## KenpoDave

"It's about the journey, no the destination."

Unless there is no destination. Then it becomes about finding a destination. It is only when the destination is reached that the importance of the journey is realized.


----------



## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> My kids swim.  We have states and nationals with a qualifying times to enter.  My kids coach won't tell anyone the times needed.  They are told just swim your best and stop worrying about the times.  Stop thinking and swim



Hmmm they must do it differently. When we wanted to go to meets that that had qualifying times that we wanted to go to, we always knew the times we needed to get.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> The qualifying times for things such as this are either set by the organisers or the governing body. This means you can ask them, look at their entry forms, look online etc, the coach won't be the only one who knows the qualifying time. I imagine however in most cases it will be as Ballen says, the coach tells them to swim and they do then he decides what comps they go in for, if they do. You are paying the coach and he's giving the best instruction and coaching he can.



Yes you can look at the forms or online but we would always get that information from our coaches, or from other swimmers. A swimmer should swim and follow the instruction of the coach but it also makes sense to know the times you have to beat, and on our team, good instruction usually included telling a swimmer the time they needed to beat to go to a meet, if the swimmer asked.


----------



## PhotonGuy

KenpoDave said:


> "It's about the journey, no the destination."
> 
> Unless there is no destination. Then it becomes about finding a destination. It is only when the destination is reached that the importance of the journey is realized.



True. Wandering aimlessly with no destination is pointless. The destination might be a belt or it might be something else, but once you do reach a destination there are always more destinations.


----------



## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> True. Wandering aimlessly with no destination is pointless. The destination might be a belt or it might be something else, but once you do reach a destination there are always more destinations.



Generally followed by a nice cup of tea


----------



## PhotonGuy

Another thing considering competitive swimming and if you're a swimmer or if you've got children that swim, maybe you or your children don't really care much to swim in meets with qualifying times. They might have enough of a desire that if they do quality they will go to the meets but they don't really have a burning desire. In that case they might not care to know the qualification times. Somebody with a burning desire to go to such meets will know the times they have to beat, they will find out usually by directly asking the head coach. There are other methods for knowing, you could ask other team mates or check the qualification times on the records that are made accessible by all swimmers, but somebody who really does want to go to such meets would know the times they have to beat somehow or another. Nevertheless, its always best to check with the head coach even if you do get the qualification times from some other source. You always want to get the proper information straight from the horse's mouth, or the sensei's mouth, or the coach's mouth, ect.


----------



## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> Hmmm they must do it differently. When we wanted to go to meets that that had qualifying times that we wanted to go to, we always knew the times we needed to get.


Why do the times matter to the swimmer.  If your trying your best knowing the tines doesn't matter you do your best and your best us either fast enough or its not.  If knowing the time males you swim harder then your not trying your best.


----------



## drop bear

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't think I'd care much for that approach myself. The fight camp is meant to get a fighter to the current peak performance they are capable of for a short time. I prefer to think of rank as indicating a student's consistent day-to-day performance rather than their peak capability. (This is also why I'm not a big fan of belt testing in general.)



Be the best you that you can be at the time. It is only going to raise your day to day ability. So that when there is drop off its base line should still be a bit higher than if you had not put in 12 weeks of focused hard work into your ma training.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

drop bear said:


> Be the best you that you can be at the time. It is only going to raise your day to day ability. So that when there is drop off its base line should still be a bit higher than if you had not put in 12 weeks of focused hard work into your ma training.


Oh, I like the idea of having the intensive training camp. I just would rather not base promotions around it.


----------



## drop bear

Tony Dismukes said:


> Oh, I like the idea of having the intensive training camp. I just would rather not base promotions around it.



What would you set as the goal? It would be nice to have achieved something at the end of it.


----------



## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> Why do the times matter to the swimmer.  If your trying your best knowing the tines doesn't matter you do your best and your best us either fast enough or its not.  If knowing the time males you swim harder then your not trying your best.



If anything a swimmer is going to know their own time. Whenever you swim an event your time is shown on the big electronic scoreboard so you are going to know your fastest time and a good swimmer is going to want to beat that, get it as low as possible so they're always getting a better time. As for knowing the qualifying time for a special meet, if you want to go it makes sense you should know the time you need to get in order to go. If you don't want to go than there is no reason for you to know that, but if anything, a swimmer will always be competing with their own best time so that is a time you will know and try to beat.


----------



## Zero

ballen0351 said:


> Why do the times matter to the swimmer.  If your trying your best knowing the tines doesn't matter you do your best and your best us either fast enough or its not.  If knowing the time males you swim harder then your not trying your best.


Agreed on one level but then also, psychology can be a funny thing and for whatever reason, knowing what that time is or having a running mate (I come from athletics not swimming, the pool is for little fishes ) can actually get you a better pb - if that makes sense.

Also, knowing the qualifying time means if you are looking to peak in a season, you know what you need to beat to get selected from that event but can also avoid burn out so you just pip the time and save up for a later meet that counts. 

This approach does not necessarily translate easily or well into martial arts or sport MA competing.  Even knowing the weaknesses of an opponent in advance and being confident they are at a "lesser" level than you, you can always get surprised by that "lesser" fighter if you take the peddle of the gas or they get in a lucky shot.  If you are easing off in a fight, unless it is a strategy to tire them and then down them or run down the clock where you have high point different, my approach has been to take out a lesser fighter quicker rather than prolong it and risk unneeded injury or upset.

This is different to as Tony says about training camps and peaking for a certain fight, which I agree with.  It is hard and actually can be detrimental to stay at peak (mental and physical) fight level at all times, you will slowly burn out and pick up injuries.


----------



## Zero

drop bear said:


> What would you set as the goal? It would be nice to have achieved something at the end of it.


I should really let Tony come back but I think his point was that the end goal is the fight at the end of the training camp, that is the competitive fighter's goal, to get to the fight in peak condition, and then of course win that fight!

I have never been in a MA style that grades at the end of some specific training or "away" camp, or where you pick up a grade from that specific camp, not saying it isn't done though...

If the [12 week] (which would be bloody long) camp is just for physical conditioning, then you will come out the other end a mean machine but after a while, regardless, your condition will drop off. What you don't maintain, you don't keep. And as said, it may not be overall beneficial to try to stay at that peak physical level, something will give sooner or later.

If you spent that camp focusing on skill improvement then at the end you would come out a much better [kicker], etc in that certain technique(s) you had been devoting focus to.  You would carry that improved or new skill for a long time, if not forever. But to stay top notch at its execution and speed you would of course need to keep maintenance training up - but not necessarily to the level as devoted during the camp.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Zero said:


> This approach does not necessarily translate easily or well into martial arts or sport MA competing.  Even knowing the weaknesses of an opponent in advance and being confident they are at a "lesser" level than you, you can always get surprised by that "lesser" fighter if you take the peddle of the gas or they get in a lucky shot.  If you are easing off in a fight, unless it is a strategy to tire them and then down them or run down the clock where you have high point different, my approach has been to take out a lesser fighter quicker rather than prolong it and risk unneeded injury or upset.


It does translate when it comes to belt requirements. Knowing the requirements for the next belt is like knowing the qualifying time for a special event in swimming that you want to be in. However, belt requirements and a student's level of proficiency in various techniques and forms isn't as cut and dry as making a certain qualifying time, therefore I would say its even more crucial and there is even more stuff you would need to ask your sensei about advancement and belt requirements than you would have to ask a swim coach about qualifying for a special event. That is, if you want to advance in belt rank or if you want to swim in a special event.


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> It does translate when it comes to belt requirements. Knowing the requirements for the next belt is like knowing the qualifying time for a special event in swimming that you want to be in. However, belt requirements and a student's level of proficiency in various techniques and forms isn't as cut and dry as making a certain qualifying time, therefore I would say its even more crucial and there is even more stuff you would need to ask your sensei about advancement and belt requirements than you would have to ask a swim coach about qualifying for a special event. That is, if you want to advance in belt rank or if you want to swim in a special event.



I don't know about this one PhotonGuy, I am going to have to think that over, at least from my perspective...

The process to each belt is generally a long one, relative to each phase.  I never really thought, "now what is the bare minimum I need to pip this belt test"? I am not aware of others with this approach either, normally (and from my own experience, and especially when I was younger) students (not always rightly) are dying to soak up and take on as much as they can and beyond the level they are at or about to grade for...

Also, I never really went into "training camp" mode for a belt grading, unlike with tournaments.  While you may be working your kata more towards a grading, generally you should have all the skills and understanding already to hand leading up to a grading - I never saw it as something one had to "peak" for.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Zero said:


> I never really thought, "now what is the bare minimum I need to pip this belt test"?


Me neither. When I test for a belt I don't just want to fulfill the bare minimum and scrape by, I want to far exceed it and blow it out of the water.



Zero said:


> Also, I never really went into "training camp" mode for a belt grading, unlike with tournaments.  While you may be working your kata more towards a grading, generally you should have all the skills and understanding already to hand leading up to a grading - I never saw it as something one had to "peak" for.



Well no. As I said earlier a belt grading is based on a student's accumulated knowledge and skill, not on peak performance that you train for and do as a one time thing, although some belt tests are run like that. For instance, at this one place when you test for black belt it starts with a two mile run. You should, however know the standards you have to meet. Not all instructors will tell you when you're ready without you asking first so that's why its important to ask. Quite often, the same techniques are on a test for a higher belt that are on a test for a lower belt, but for the higher belt tests those techniques have to be performed to a much greater skill level. In this case, skill level is not something you peak at and perform as a one time thing, its something that is obtained and then maintained, much like with math when you learn the basics, and then you become more and more proficient with that and use it in more advanced stuff and you maintain your skill without "peaking" for a one time performance.


----------



## drop bear

Zero said:


> I don't know about this one PhotonGuy, I am going to have to think that over, at least from my perspective...
> 
> The process to each belt is generally a long one, relative to each phase.  I never really thought, "now what is the bare minimum I need to pip this belt test"? I am not aware of others with this approach either, normally (and from my own experience, and especially when I was younger) students (not always rightly) are dying to soak up and take on as much as they can and beyond the level they are at or about to grade for...
> 
> Also, I never really went into "training camp" mode for a belt grading, unlike with tournaments.  While you may be working your kata more towards a grading, generally you should have all the skills and understanding already to hand leading up to a grading - I never saw it as something one had to "peak" for.



Which makes grading's look like they do. When you see high level grading's that have a certain cringe factor.

 When black belts spar three guys and are exhausted because they are not conditioned for the test. They turn basically to crap and everybody cheers them on as if they have done something special.


----------



## drop bear

Now I get it. She is tired. I understand the grading may have gone on for a long time and been really hard. But that level of effort should not have come as a surprise. When dedicated training towards that goal would have helped her.


----------



## Zero

drop bear said:


> Now I get it. She is tired. I understand the grading may have gone on for a long time and been really hard. But that level of effort should not have come as a surprise. When dedicated training towards that goal would have helped her.



I don't want to pick on anyone having a go for sure!  I have seen a lot of shockers but each to their own.
Personally I have always put in considerable conditioning training outside of class and, when not working the bag or sparring, have been in the gym or running in the hills, etc.  Therefore, there has never been the need to "peak" for any gradings on the physical side.  I have always been a bit of a freak and love training and pushing myself, I start getting a bit twitchy when I haven't been able to go for a run or been able to go to the dojo for a few days due to work.


----------



## Transk53

Wish those bloody Sat-Navs knew the difference between the journey and destination.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Transk53 said:


> Wish those bloody Sat-Navs knew the difference between the journey and destination.



The destination is somewhere you're going, a place you want to get to. The journey is the trip to that place you want to get to. Last month I drove through Nevada. Nevada, specifically Pahrump NV was my destination. Driving through various other states such as Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, and Utah was the journey.

And I must say parts of the journey were beautiful. Particularly Colorado. Great scenery. Snow capped mountains and all these mountain communities. But it doesn't get like that until you're west of Denver. East of Denver its much like Kansas, very flat and wide open spaces of nothing.


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> The destination is somewhere you're going, a place you want to get to. The journey is the trip to that place you want to get to. Last month I drove through Nevada. Nevada, specifically Pahrump NV was my destination. Driving through various other states such as Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, and Utah was the journey.
> 
> And I must say parts of the journey were beautiful. Particularly Colorado. Great scenery. Snow capped mountains and all these mountain communities. But it doesn't get like that until you're west of Denver. East of Denver its much like Kansas, very flat and wide open spaces of nothing.


Any photos?  Sounds like a great trip.


----------



## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> The destination is somewhere you're going, a place you want to get to. The journey is the trip to that place you want to get to. Last month I drove through Nevada. Nevada, specifically Pahrump NV was my destination. Driving through various other states such as Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, and Utah was the journey.
> 
> And I must say parts of the journey were beautiful. Particularly Colorado. Great scenery. Snow capped mountains and all these mountain communities. But it doesn't get like that until you're west of Denver. East of Denver its much like Kansas, very flat and wide open spaces of nothing.



Thinking about it, I remember the great scenery in the movie "Paul" Simon Pegg (Scotty ST re-boot) and Nick Frost. Some of the areas was the usual UFO folklore areas. Anyway, the wooded areas in the movie were stunning.


----------



## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> Why do the times matter to the swimmer.  If your trying your best knowing the tines doesn't matter you do your best and your best us either fast enough or its not.  If knowing the time males you swim harder then your not trying your best.



And if knowing the times is what you need to swim your best than that's what you need. If a swimmer performs better when they know the required times than they need to know the times. Knowing the times is an entirely psychological effect but a psychological effect can be a very strong one with performance.


----------



## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> And if knowing the times is what you need to swim your best than that's what you need. If a swimmer performs better when they know the required times than they need to know the times. Knowing the times is an entirely psychological effect but a psychological effect can be a very strong one with performance.


Then they are focused on the wrong thing kinda like your fixation on belt color


----------



## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> Then they are focused on the wrong thing kinda like your fixation on belt color



Well let me ask you this, do your children want to go to meets such as Nationals?


----------



## Gnarlie

There are two kinds of people: group a) people who just do enough, and group b) people who give everything they have got. Not revealing the exact requirement or required time encourages group A to move into group B. Group B behaviour is in keeping with martial spirit and develops mental fortitude because it forces the student to fight the internal enemy rather than the external one.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Then they are focused on the wrong thing kinda like your fixation on belt color



Unless it helps them achieve better results. I mean it is great to say that nobody needs external motivation but I think you need the results to back that up.

So the next step here is look up people who train champions and see if they goal set.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> There are two kinds of people: group a) people who just do enough, and group b) people who give everything they have got. Not revealing the exact requirement or required time encourages group A to move into group B. Group B behaviour is in keeping with martial spirit and develops mental fortitude because it forces the student to fight the internal enemy rather than the external one.



Not necessarily. If I want to do something whether its getting a belt or swimming in nationals or whatever I do want to know what the requirements are, it only makes sense to know what you've got to do to meet a goal, but I don't just want to squeak by and fulfill the requirements to the minimum, I want to blow them out of the water. Im not satisfied with just borderline passing.


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> There are two kinds of people: group a) people who just do enough, and group b) people who give everything they have got. Not revealing the exact requirement or required time encourages group A to move into group B. Group B behaviour is in keeping with martial spirit and develops mental fortitude because it forces the student to fight the internal enemy rather than the external one.



You could make that argument for what could become soul destroying training. 

You could be training people to give up early.


----------



## Gnarlie

drop bear said:


> Unless it helps them achieve better results. I mean it is great to say that nobody needs external motivation but I think you need the results to back that up.
> 
> So the next step here is look up people who train champions and see if they goal set.


Not focusing on belts is not the same as not goal setting at all.

Nothing wrong with having a goal in place, very positive and motivating.

Having a belt as a goal is an indirect and not necessarily good indicator of improvement in skill. 

More sensible goals are direct and time bound, measurable and skill related. Increase in weight lifted, reps completed in a time, height jumped, angle stretched to, etc. A belt is unlikely to directly indicate skill based increases such as the above. There is likely to be a correlation due to time training, but as we all know, correlation does not equal causation.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> Not necessarily. If I want to do something whether its getting a belt or swimming in nationals or whatever I do want to know what the requirements are, it only makes sense to know what you've got to do to meet a goal, but I don't just want to squeak by and fulfill the requirements to the minimum, I want to blow them out of the water. Im not satisfied with just borderline passing.


If you want to blow the test out of the water then stop worrying about requirements and start training to always give your best.


----------



## Gnarlie

drop bear said:


> You could make that argument for what could become soul destroying training.
> 
> You could be training people to give up early.


And yet we have fantastic attendance and retention rates. 

It is a very strong motivating message to say 'at some point today you will fail. We will all fail. That is your aim today both in the physical and technical fitness senses. To reach a wall and then push yourself at least a little bit beyond it. Next time you will be able to do more before you reach the wall. Those moments, beyond the wall, right before you push yourself to fail, are where you are WINNING.'

That's the only requirement one needs to know, and the rest you learn by doing. The same approach applies to technical learning, we have to push themselves to proactively learn a little more each time. 

It's not macho macho, I'm not suggesting we push people to vomiting point (not usually anyway), just that we instill and work with the idea of battling the self right from the start.

It works for us, I'm not saying it has to work for everyone.


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> Not focusing on belts is not the same as not goal setting at all.
> 
> Nothing wrong with having a goal in place, very positive and motivating.
> 
> Having a belt as a goal is an indirect and not necessarily good indicator of improvement in skill.
> 
> More sensible goals are direct and time bound, measurable and skill related. Increase in weight lifted, reps completed in a time, height jumped, angle stretched to, etc. A belt is unlikely to directly indicate skill based increases such as the above. There is likely to be a correlation due to time training, but as we all know, correlation does not equal causation.



The argument about four posts ago was against even setting goals like swim times.

Personally I would suggest both forms of external motivation beneficial.


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> And yet we have fantastic attendance and retention rates.
> 
> It is a very strong motivating message to say 'at some point today you will fail. We will all fail. That is your aim today both in the physical and technical fitness senses. To reach a wall and then push yourself at least a little bit beyond it. Next time you will be able to do more before you reach the wall. Those moments, beyond the wall, right before you push yourself to fail, are where you are WINNING.'
> 
> That's the only requirement one needs to know, and the rest you learn by doing. The same approach applies to technical learning, we have to push themselves to proactively learn a little more each time.
> 
> It's not macho macho, I'm not suggesting we push people to vomiting point, just that we instill and work with the idea of battling the self right from the start.
> 
> It works for us, I'm not saying it has to work for everyone.



And that is not goal setting?


----------



## Gnarlie

drop bear said:


> The argument about four posts ago was against even setting goals like swim times.
> 
> Personally I would suggest both forms of external motivation beneficial.


A swim time is different and does not relate well to traditional martial arts IMO. A swim time is an external and arbitrary goal. It's someone else's time. More motivating goals are individual and personally set.

Aiming to beat a qualifying time as a goal is a bad idea given that what follows is a competition for people who swim faster than that time. One of those guys might be someone who doesn't use other people's times as a goal and thus has continuously improved himself to swim record times unheard of in swimming. Think natural talent too.

Having a qualifying time as a goal is setting yourself up to fail. Just like having a belt as a goal might set you up to fail if your ultimate goal is actually to be a skilled martial artist or fighter.


----------



## Gnarlie

drop bear said:


> And that is not goal setting?


Yes, it absolutely is. That is my point. 

Goal setting, especially effective goal setting, and having a belt as a goal are not necessarily the same thing.


----------



## Gnarlie

There are also going to different approaches here depending on if you want to be competitive, or if you want to live the way.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Unless it helps them achieve better results. I mean it is great to say that nobody needs external motivation but I think you need the results to back that up.
> 
> So the next step here is look up people who train champions and see if they goal set.


It may help some but since we talking about kids what happens more often is "oh I only need to swim that fast cool"  so they settle for the minimum standard. 

And since you mentioned champions Michael Phelps is a local guy and has done seminars with our swim team and his advice was don't worry about the numbers push yourself as hard as you can and the numbers will reflect that in the end"


----------



## Gnarlie

Generally kids don't respond to goal setting and achievements in the same way as adults, so learning through play tends to be more effective in fostering improvement up to a certain age, at least in my experience.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> Not focusing on belts is not the same as not goal setting at all.
> Nothing wrong with having a goal in place, very positive and motivating.


Well you have made it clear that you do believe in goals, you just don't think that belts should be a goal. There are others that think that too. Many of my posts and threads however are about if belts are your goal how you should pursue it. Whether or not belts should be a goal is a different matter altogether.



Gnarlie said:


> Having a belt as a goal is an indirect and not necessarily good indicator of improvement in skill.


I've said this in some other posts but unless you go to a place that has cheap requirements for belts, and I mean cheap in skill requirements not financial requirements, than you're not going to get a high belt without high skill.



Gnarlie said:


> More sensible goals are direct and time bound, measurable and skill related. Increase in weight lifted, reps completed in a time, height jumped, angle stretched to, etc. A belt is unlikely to directly indicate skill based increases such as the above. There is likely to be a correlation due to time training, but as we all know, correlation does not equal causation.


Again, whether or not a belt is a good indicator of skill based increases depends on the standards and requirements at the place where you got it.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> If you want to blow the test out of the water then stop worrying about requirements and start training to always give your best.



In order to train hard and always give it my best, I don't want to train blindly. I want to know what Im training for and that involves knowing the requirements. Knowing a swimming time I have to beat helps me focus more. Lets say I have to swim a 50 freestyle in 30 seconds to go to a special meet which was the qualifying time for my age group. Once I get my time down to 30 seconds I know Im going to the meet, but now I want to be prepared to do my very best at the meet so I want to see how much I can beat the 30 second requirement by. The same thing with belt requirements.

Its much like what my Baseball coach in Jr. High said, in a game against another team whether we're ahead by 100 points or behind by 100 points in either case he wanted us to do our best and play just as hard as if the scores were tied.


----------



## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> It may help some but since we talking about kids what happens more often is "oh I only need to swim that fast cool"  so they settle for the minimum standard.


That's not how we took it. Once we knew we had beaten the qualifying time to go to a meet, we still wanted to get our times as low as possible. After all, once we knew we were going to a meet we then wanted to be able to do our very best at the meet. 

In school there was this boy in my class who wasn't satisfied even with a 97 on his test. A 97 is an A+, the highest letter grade possible, but he wanted to do better. He wanted a 100 even though it would've been the same letter grade.

At this swim camp I went to the coach said our goal, our ultimate goal, was to get a time of 00:00:00 on the stop watch. Once we reached that goal we could all retire and we would have it made. At that point, once I made 00:00:00 as my time I would then say "I only need to swim that fast cool," but until then I would be working towards getting my time down to that and doing my best to get it.



ballen0351 said:


> And since you mentioned champions Michael Phelps is a local guy and has done seminars with our swim team and his advice was don't worry about the numbers push yourself as hard as you can and the numbers will reflect that in the end"


Well Im not one to argue with a legend and I do think that people can sometimes get too worked up by numbers not just with swimming times but with all sorts of other stuff such as grades as I mentioned above, but I don't think Phelps would object to knowing your own time, which you will know anyway, or knowing the time you have to beat to go to a certain meet you want to go to.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Many of my posts and threads however are about if belts are your goal how you should pursue it.



That's simple. If belts are your goal, go buy one. There are plenty of places online that will sell you one with all the stripes and whatever you'd like.

You can now reach your goal without starting any more threads about belt-pursuit.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> In order to train hard and always give it my best, I don't want to train blindly.



You're not. You have an instructor to tell you which exercises to do.


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> There are also going to different approaches here depending on if you want to be competitive, or if you want to live the way.



Making one approach to sound the more enlightened method there.


----------



## Gnarlie

drop bear said:


> Making one approach to sound the more enlightened method there.


Depending on your perspective. I try not to make value judgements.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> That's simple. If belts are your goal, go buy one. There are plenty of places online that will sell you one with all the stripes and whatever you'd like.


How about if I would rather earn one than buy one?


----------



## PhotonGuy

So Gnarlie its been awhile since I've heard from you. You say that where you train or teach that students aren't told what the requirements for their next belt are and that you're against students being told the requirements. I was wondering some other stuff about how your place is run and your viewpoint on this.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> So Gnarlie its been awhile since I've heard from you. You say that where you train or teach that students aren't told what the requirements for their next belt are and that you're against students being told the requirements. I was wondering some other stuff about how your place is run and your viewpoint on this.


Such as? I'll gladly answer any questions you might have, even if we end up not seeing things the same...


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> Such as? I'll gladly answer any questions you might have, even if we end up not seeing things the same...



Well for one thing I was wondering if they even have tests at your dojo. Do they test students or do the instructors just promote them when they see that they're ready? You say the instructors know what the requirements are and they watch over the students and make sure they're doing it the right way so I was wondering if they even use tests or if they just promote the students when the instructors have seen that they've met the requirements.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> Well for one thing I was wondering if they even have tests at your dojo. Do they test students or do the instructors just promote them when they see that they're ready? You say the instructors know what the requirements are and they watch over the students and make sure they're doing it the right way so I was wondering if they even use tests or if they just promote the students when the instructors have seen that they've met the requirements.



We have tests. And the tests are thorough. People have to work to pass.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> We have tests. And the tests are thorough. People have to work to pass.


 
I see so I get the impression that when the instructors see that a student is ready they then schedule a test for that student.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> I see so I get the impression that when the instructors see that a student is ready they then schedule a test for that student.


That would be an incorrect assumption.

It is the student's choice. Within reason i. e.  timescale and attendance wise


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> That would be an incorrect assumption.
> 
> It is the student's choice.



So then the instructor tells the student they're ready to test and the student then decides if they want to test, is that how its done?


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> So then the instructor tells the student they're ready to test and the student then decides if they want to test, is that how its done?


Tests are available on a scheduled basis subject to demand. The student decides if they are ready, and registers interest. The instructors will advise as to whether it's a good idea, but the student can make the final decision. People do fail. Which is fine, because if they go against the instructor's advice maybe they could use the leveller. 

Instructors will give the advice that if what we do on a regular basis in training is a) unfamiliar or b) more than challenging, then it is not a great idea to test as you may not be ready.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> Tests are available on a scheduled basis subject to demand. The student decides if they are ready, and registers interest. The instructors will advise as to whether it's a good idea, but the student can make the final decision. People do fail. Which is fine, because if they go against the instructor's advice maybe they could use the leveller.
> 
> Instructors will give the advice that if what we do on a regular basis in training is a) unfamiliar or b) more than challenging, then it is not a great idea to test as you may not be ready.



So your place sounds quite similar to mine in that tests are scheduled on a regular basis and its up to the student to ask if they're ready to test. So you must run tests ever month or every few months or on some schedule such as that and its then when students ask if they're ready. I do remember though that you said students are not told what they need to do to pass. I can see how it would make sense to not tell students exactly what will be on the test just like in academic school a teacher will not tell a student exactly what will be on an upcoming test but a teacher will at least tell the student all the material they have to study. I take it that at your place all the material covered in training is the material that will be on upcoming tests and its up to students to ask the instructors if they've learned and developed the material to an adequate level to pass.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> So your place sounds quite similar to mine in that tests are scheduled on a regular basis and its up to the student to ask if they're ready to test. So you must run tests ever month or every few months or on some schedule such as that and its then when students ask if they're ready.



It is up to the students to decide if they think they are ready. 


PhotonGuy said:


> I do remember though that you said students are not told what they need to do to pass.



Not directly. 


PhotonGuy said:


> I can see how it would make sense to not tell students exactly what will be on the test just like in academic school a teacher will not tell a student exactly what will be on an upcoming test but a teacher will at least tell the student all the material they have to study.



We only test them on what they do in training. They pay attention, they know what is important. 


PhotonGuy said:


> I take it that at your place all the material covered in training is the material that will be on upcoming tests



Yes. Along with application of principles associated with it. 


PhotonGuy said:


> and its up to students to ask the instructors if they've learned and developed the material to an adequate level to pass.



No. It is up to the student to decide if they are comfortable enough with their ability and the material to test. It is the test that will tell them, not the instructors.


----------



## PhotonGuy

I see, well if the instructors advise against a student testing do they tell them why they don't advise it? And if a student takes a test and fails are they told why they failed? In both cases based on some of your earlier posts I get the impression it would be considered spoon feeding.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> I see, well if the instructors advise against a student testing do they tell them why they don't advise it?



Yes. As in, 'You are not ready. You need to practice more.'



PhotonGuy said:


> And if a student takes a test and fails are they told why they failed? In both cases based on some of your earlier posts I get the impression it would be considered spoon feeding.



If a student fails a test it will be abundantly clear to them why. There would be an element of the test that they were unable to demonstrate adequately on the day, and the examiner will have pushed that point, because we want to give them the opportunity to pass.

They are not tested on anything they haven't trained for, so any element where things go wrong is typically due to nerves.


----------



## geezer

The TKD school my son attends has an unusual approach to testing. The forms, techniques, sparring, etc. necessary for each level are made clear and are posted on the wall, and testing is done on the first Saturday of each month. When the student _feels_ ready he is encouraged to test, but is told to be prepared to fail if he doesn't perform at or above the standard.

Now at this school, monthly tuition is not cheap, but_ tests are only $5_ (the cost of the belt) and if you fail, _you can re-test for free _the following month or later. Consequently, it is not uncommon for students to fail. There is no shaming, just confronting the fact that they are not yet ready to move up. They are then told exactly what needs work, and have another chance to re-test get it right.

So students learn that the school is not a "belt factory" and that you have to actually earn your rank. They also learn that tests are not a money-making scam. They are assessments of your progress, and are a learning experience whether you pass or fail. They also learn to more accurately assess their own progress, and finally, they learn that it is up to them to put themselves out  there and give it a go if they want to move forward.

As a parent, a professional educator, and a martial arts instructor (in a different system) I think this school has a pretty good approach.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> Yes. As in, 'You are not ready. You need to practice more.'
> 
> 
> 
> If a student fails a test it will be abundantly clear to them why. There would be an element of the test that they were unable to demonstrate adequately on the day, and the examiner will have pushed that point, because we want to give them the opportunity to pass.
> 
> They are not tested on anything they haven't trained for, so any element where things go wrong is typically due to nerves.



I see. I once saw this boy fail a black belt test when he wasn't able to break a cinder block. He tried breaking it the first time and wasn't able to and it was then one of the instructors who was on the test panel told him if he didn't break he wouldn't pass. He then hit the block again and was still not able to break it so he failed the test. He took it quite well and said he would just have to practice more and that he was confident he would pass the next time. So your tests sound quite similar, it was clear why this boy failed the test and so he would have to work on his breaking so he could pass the next time. It sounds like its much the same at your dojo.


----------



## PhotonGuy

geezer said:


> The TKD school my son attends has an unusual approach to testing. The forms, techniques, sparring, etc. necessary for each level are made clear and are posted on the wall, and testing is done on the first Saturday of each month. When the student _feels_ ready he is encouraged to test, but is told to be prepared to fail if he doesn't perform at or above the standard.
> 
> Now at this school, monthly tuition is not cheap, but_ tests are only $5_ (the cost of the belt) and if you fail, _you can re-test for free _the following month or later. Consequently, it is not uncommon for students to fail. There is no shaming, just confronting the fact that they are not yet ready to move up. They are then told exactly what needs work, and have another chance to re-test get it right.


Well that's good. A student should be told what they need to work on if they fail although some people might say that's spoon feeding. If a student has not been told they can test or has not been promoted and they've been at their current rank for longer than average I see two reasons why that's so, either they aren't doing it right or they're not working hard enough. If they're not doing it right that's where the instructors come in, its their job to correct the student. If the student isn't working hard enough, than that's something the student has to fix.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> A student should be told what they need to work on if they fail although some *people might say that's spoon feeding.*



How so? Why would an instructor telling the student what they needed to work on ever be considered 'spoon feeding'? How would a student know what to work on if the instructor didn't tell them? Are students supposed to have crystal balls? "Well you failed your test but I'm not going to tell you why, you have to guess!" No, don't think so.


----------



## Gnarlie

Tez3 said:


> How so? Why would an instructor telling the student what they needed to work on ever be considered 'spoon feeding'? How would a student know what to work on if the instructor didn't tell them? Are students supposed to have crystal balls? "Well you failed your test but I'm not going to tell you why, you have to guess!" No, don't think so.


PG has referenced spoon feeding on several occasions because he seems to be fixated on a post I made on this topic but I think he has misinterpreted what I meant. 

I originally stated that we don't directly discuss the grading requirements with students as that would be spoonfeeding them when they train in what they are going to be tested on every day.

The essence of my point was that I want them to get good at what they train in, rather than spending time trying to get good at tests.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> PG has referenced spoon feeding on several occasions because he seems to be fixated on a post I made on this topic but I think he has misinterpreted what I meant.
> 
> I originally stated that we don't directly discuss the grading requirements with students as that would be spoonfeeding them when they train in what they are going to be tested on every day.
> 
> The essence of my point was that I want them to get good at what they train in, rather than spending time trying to get good at tests.



OK I see what you mean now.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Are students supposed to have crystal balls? "Well you failed your test but I'm not going to tell you why, you have to guess!" No, don't think so.


I have to agree with this and this would also apply to dojos where you have to be told before you can test. I got the impression that Gnarlie's place was like that but he said its not. Anyway, if you're not being told you can test you should know why you aren't being told you can test. You shouldn't be expected to have a crystal ball or to guess.


----------



## PhotonGuy

So Gnarlie I thought promotion worked differently at your dojo but now that you've cleared some stuff up I know better. Anyway, I was wondering, are you originally from one of the Asian countries?


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> So Gnarlie I thought promotion worked differently at your dojo but now that you've cleared some stuff up I know better. Anyway, I was wondering, are you originally from one of the Asian countries?



No, I am originally from the UK.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> No, I am originally from the UK.



I see. I don't know how it is in the UK but Im an American and Americans tend to be very goal oriented. From what I've heard about the Asian culture, its not so much like that over there.

Anyway, when in Rome do as the Romans do.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> I see. I don't know how it is in the UK but Im an American and Americans tend to be very goal oriented. From what I've heard about the Asian culture, its not so much like that over there.
> 
> Anyway, when in Rome do as the Romans do.



Exactly. I spend my time training with a mix of cultures but the predominant culture is Korean, and encompasses values that do not always align well with strong goal orientation. Depending on the goal.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> Exactly. I spend my time training with a mix of cultures but the predominant culture is Korean, and encompasses values that do not always align well with strong goal orientation. Depending on the goal.



Well, whenever you take something from one culture and introduce it to and then incorporate it into another culture its going to change a bit and take on some of the qualities of that culture. After all, just look at Baseball in Japan.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> Well, whenever you take something from one culture and introduce it to and then incorporate it into another culture its going to change a bit and take on some of the qualities of that culture. After all, just look at Baseball in Japan.


I agree, but when the philosophy and values at the core of that activity are highly specific to its native culture (something which is particularly common in asian martial arts), then when one changes those values one loses the essence that makes it what it is.

That isn't so for an activity like baseball, but for anything ending in 'Do', it holds true. Maybe less so for Jutsu.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> I agree, but when the philosophy and values at the core of that activity are highly specific to its native culture (something which is particularly common in asian martial arts), then when one changes those values one loses the essence that makes it what it is.
> 
> That isn't so for an activity like baseball, but for anything ending in 'Do', it holds true. Maybe less so for Jutsu.


Well it was Jitsu that came first and I actually like Jitsu over Do, just personal preference. If anything, Jitsu would be more rooted in its native culture since its older. Do came about as a modification to make it more of a sport and way of life as opposed to a method of combat and warfare. 

And if one of the values of the art is not to seek the belts of rank, if the art uses belts of rank it stands to reason that students will seek them to some extent. There will be those students who make it their primary goal and become obsessed with it but I would say many students will pursue the belts somewhat. It might not be their main goal or an obsession but they will want to advance in due time. The only way to not have students with that mindset is to not have belts of rank in your system.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> If anything, Jitsu would be more rooted in its native culture since its older.


That does not follow logically.



PhotonGuy said:


> Do came about as a modification to make it more of a sport and way of life as opposed to a method of combat and warfare.



That's not really correct. 'Do' just acknowledged that there was less need for actual combat and warfare in modern society, and focused on the reasons to train which remained. It didn't actively change the arts with those aims. 


PhotonGuy said:


> And if one of the values of the art is not to seek the belts of rank, if the art uses belts of rank it stands to reason that students will seek them to some extent.



I don't think it is directly a value of any art, and that's not what I have said. But arts with Buddhist, Confucian, and/or Taoist roots encourage for example traits such as good etiquette, modesty and mindfulness (in the sense if absolute concentration). Those are factors. 


PhotonGuy said:


> There will be those students who make it their primary goal and become obsessed with it but I would say many students will pursue the belts somewhat. It might not be their main goal or an obsession but they will want to advance in due time.



To those students I would encourage them to move their focus away from 'due time' and belts and on to skill, attitude and self development. 



PhotonGuy said:


> The only way to not have students with that mindset is to not have belts of rank in your system.



There is never an 'only way'. Students can be educated. That's why they are students.


----------



## PhotonGuy

I see. Well you are right how the martial arts in the USA has become Americanized. For instance, one was its been Americanized is they make a big deal about the black belt. Sometimes in the USA they make it proportionally much harder to go from brown to black than to go up other belts which I think can be a bit silly (Im using an example of a system where brown comes right before black as lots of systems are structured like that.) From what I've heard about how it is in Japan, the black belt is seen as just another belt and going from brown to black is no different than going from say, yellow to orange or green to blue other than the fact that you're dealing with a higher belt. From what I've seen, though, even instructors from Japan who are teaching in the USA will make a big deal about the black belt once they start living and teaching in America.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> From what I've heard about the Asian culture, its not so much like that over there.



'The Asian culture'? You think that it's all one culture? I take it you don't know much about Asian cultures if you can say 'over there', somewhat insulting actually.


----------



## Oldbear343

PhotonGuy said:


> For people who continue their journey I would say it is another day of training but you also do reach a new leg, at least from my experience. After you make black belt it doesn't get easier it gets harder. For one thing, they expect more out of you at the dojo but aside from that and I would say even more profoundly you expect more out of yourself. That is why some people, after making black belt, will train even harder than they did before.


I agree.  Learning to expect more from yourself and also that you can push yourself harder is an integral part of the journey, but reaching black belt is definitely a new level on the journey up the mountain....


----------



## Oldbear343

PhotonGuy said:


> So this thread has died down a bit but some people have made some good points, particularly Gnarlie about not letting your emotions control you and about not to be overly obsessed with high belts when you first start out but rather to be focusing on what is being taught to you at the here and now. However, I don't see a problem with focusing on whatever belt is next up for you, and that includes a higher belt if you're up at that level.


I agree, as long as focusing on the next belt is a motivation to train and learn, rather than just a trophy to attain.☺


----------



## Oldbear343

PhotonGuy said:


> At my place, and at lots of places, you start teaching as a brown belt, just as an assistant though.


Yes, it is very sound practise for those who aspire to instruct (or are chosen) to serve an apprenticeship in teaching..


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> 'The Asian culture'? You think that it's all one culture? I take it you don't know much about Asian cultures if you can say 'over there', somewhat insulting actually.



Well than I should clarify more, the Japanese culture, a specific portion of the Asian culture. Very different from other Asian groups such as the Chinese.

And I happen to be half Asian myself so I would not insult a culture that my roots are from.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Oldbear343 said:


> I agree, as long as focusing on the next belt is a motivation to train and learn, rather than just a trophy to attain.☺


At least where I train when you do reach a new belt you do learn more. You're taught the next kata and aside from that more is expected out of you. Based on some other posts on this board, at other dojos it might be different but that's how it is where I train.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Well than I should clarify more, the Japanese culture, a specific portion of the Asian culture. Very different from other Asian groups such as the Chinese.
> 
> And I happen to be half Asian myself so I would not insult a culture that my roots are from.



so you think the Japanese aren't goal orientated then? Japan - Geert Hofstede


----------



## dugite61

After a long journey that originally started in 85 I always expected that receiving my BB would be the end all, I was very confused then when leading up to it and on being presented with it my feelings weren't those of elation and excitement but rather feelings of the weight of responsibility of setting the correct example and being a role model for those to follow.  My first self training sessions outside the Dojo after that presentation saw me returning to work on my Heian Kata and Kihon.


----------



## RowdyAz

Gnarlie said:


> PG has referenced spoon feeding on several occasions because he seems to be fixated on a post I made on this topic but I think he has misinterpreted what I meant.
> 
> I originally stated that we don't directly discuss the grading requirements with students as that would be spoonfeeding them when they train in what they are going to be tested on every day.
> 
> The essence of my point was that I want them to get good at what they train in, rather than spending time trying to get good at tests.


I might be wrong but I am under the impression that a test is based on what you train in.


----------



## Gnarlie

RowdyAz said:


> I might be wrong but I am under the impression that a test is based on what you train in.



Absolutely my point. Why does a student need to know the testing requirements when they live and train them every single session?


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> so you think the Japanese aren't goal orientated then? Japan - Geert Hofstede


OK good point. So if the Japanese are goal oriented than if you do take up a Japanese martial art than there is nothing wrong with being goal oriented about it. Sure, some people might take up a martial art just as a fun hobby and might not be all that serious about it but if you are one of those people who is really serious about it than there is nothing wrong with that and there is nothing wrong with being goal oriented with it. After all, you're taking up an activity from a very goal oriented culture.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> Absolutely my point. Why does a student need to know the testing requirements when they live and train them every single session?


Well a student perhaps shouldn't know exactly what's going to be on the test but they should have a basic idea of all the material that would be covered which as you point out is covered in class but if they're unclear about something it shouldn't be a problem to ask. For instance, in school most of the time you don't know exactly what's on a test before you take it. To know exactly what's going to be on say, a math or history or science test would be spoon feeding and that's why they don't show it to you until you take it. But it is not uncommon for students to ask their teachers before a test what they need to study and the teacher will give them a basic idea, tell them the chapters they need to study, ect.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Well a student perhaps shouldn't know exactly what's going to be on the test but they should have a basic idea of all the material that would be covered which as you point out is covered in class but if they're unclear about something it shouldn't be a problem to ask. For instance, in school most of the time you don't know exactly what's on a test before you take it. To know exactly what's going to be on say, a math or history or science test would be spoon feeding and that's why they don't show it to you until you take it. But it is not uncommon for students to ask their teachers before a test what they need to study and the teacher will give them a basic idea, tell them the chapters they need to study, ect.



The answer should be "study everything we've covered up to this point." "Will this be on the test" is a question that translates as "I don't really care about learning the material, just passing the test."


----------



## Gnarlie

Dirty Dog said:


> The answer should be "study everything we've covered up to this point." "Will this be on the test" is a question that translates as "I don't really care about learning the material, just passing the test."



QFT. 

And with MA, it is actual competence that matters. I have issues with people trying to cram and peak for a test. Example -learn a bunch of step sparring the week before, then do them, then forget about them immediately after passing a test and not practice any until the next test. To me, that shouldn't be how martial arts works but I fear it is at a lot of places.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Gnarlie said:


> QFT.
> 
> And with MA, it is actual competence that matters. I have issues with people trying to cram and peak for a test. Example -learn a bunch of step sparring the week before, then do them, then forget about them immediately after passing a test and not practice any until the next test. To me, that shouldn't be how martial arts works but I fear it is at a lot of places.



We randomly include material from lower belt testing in all our promotions.


----------



## Tez3

Gnarlie said:


> QFT.
> 
> And with MA, it is actual competence that matters. I have issues with people trying to cram and peak for a test. Example -learn a bunch of step sparring the week before, then do them, then forget about them immediately after passing a test and not practice any until the next test. To me, that shouldn't be how martial arts works but I fear it is at a lot of places.




That's the way schools are going here because of government performance tables, the children are learning to pass tests not getting an education.Sats exams promote teaching to the test - Telegraph

Martial arts gradings can be the same if the instructors are more concerned about either getting the grading money or pandering to 'customer's wanting belts.


----------



## Danny T

Dirty Dog said:


> The answer should be "study everything we've covered up to this point."


When we hand out 'You Will Be Tested' papers the student is given a list of material that may be tested. The last on the list is; "Any Previous Material Covered".


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## pgsmith

The way the koryu sword school that I used to be a part of did it was that the first six forms you learned were the ones that you had to perform for every test. Only six, and the same ones every time. The head of the school and the U.S. head instructor would watch you perform those kata, and decide from your performance whether you had advanced enough in technique to attain the next rank. Many did not. After you got so high in the hierarchy, you were expected to train a certain amount of time with the school head and the U.S. head instructor so they knew where you were in regards to knowledge level.


----------



## kuniggety

I know there's BJJ schools that do formal testing and have set standards but I am at Axis which is a Rickson Gracie affiliate school and they promote you when you're ready. It's performance based in your rolling. Are you successful in your position changes? Can you hold position? Are you sweeping? Are you defending submissions? Are you submitting? And lastly, against who are you doing all of these against (size/sex/belt)? You're a blue belt when you can do these regularly against white belts and hold your own against the blue belts. You're a purple belt when you are doing those regularly against blue belts and can hold your own against the purple belts. So on for brown and then for black. There's literally hundreds of techniques that you have to learn and there is no cramming and no dumping. If you dump, someone is going to use a technique on you and you're not going to know how to defend or likewise you're going to miss an opportunity because you dumped a technique that you could've used.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> QFT.
> 
> And with MA, it is actual competence that matters. I have issues with people trying to cram and peak for a test. Example -learn a bunch of step sparring the week before, then do them, then forget about them immediately after passing a test and not practice any until the next test. To me, that shouldn't be how martial arts works but I fear it is at a lot of places.



You're example would not work at my dojo because stuff you're tested on you will use as you further progress in the martial arts. For the yellow belt some of the techniques you're tested on is the reverse punch and the front kick. You can't then forget them after the test because you will be using them during your training as a yellow belt and as you work on your orange belt, the belt after yellow. So if you have to learn a bunch of step sparring for a belt, you will use it after you get the belt and it will be part of stuff that you will be doing for your next belt. When you go up a belt you're then taught a new kata for the next belt but when you test for the next belt you will not only be tested on the new kata but on katas for previous belts, for that very reason that they don't want you cramming and forgetting stuff afterwards.

Much like with math, when you learn basic addition and subtraction and are tested on it, you can't then forget it because you will be using it for the rest of the math you will be learning. Algebra, Geometry, Calculus, ext, all the more advanced forms of math use the basics, addition and subtraction. 

Speaking of math, its my second language. Im pointing this out because its been questioned on these boards if english is really my first language. Actually its my third. My first language is martial arts, my second language is math, and my third language is english.

BTW, speaking of cramming and peaking for a test you see that in school all the time. You can't get away with it in subjects such as math as I mentioned above, but you see it with stuff such as history.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> You're example would not work at my dojo because stuff you're tested on you will use as you further progress in the martial arts. For the yellow belt some of the techniques you're tested on is the reverse punch and the front kick. You can't then forget them after the test because you will be using them during your training as a yellow belt and as you work on your orange belt, the belt after yellow. So if you have to learn a bunch of step sparring for a belt, you will use it after you get the belt and it will be part of stuff that you will be doing for your next belt. When you go up a belt you're then taught a new kata for the next belt but when you test for the next belt you will not only be tested on the new kata but on katas for previous belts, for that very reason that they don't want you cramming and forgetting stuff afterwards.
> 
> Much like with math, when you learn basic addition and subtraction and are tested on it, you can't then forget it because you will be using it for the rest of the math you will be learning. Algebra, Geometry, Calculus, ext, all the more advanced forms of math use the basics, addition and subtraction.
> 
> Speaking of math, its my second language. Im pointing this out because its been questioned on these boards if english is really my first language. Actually its my third. My first language is martial arts, my second language is math, and my third language is english.
> 
> BTW, speaking of cramming and peaking for a test you see that in school all the time. You can't get away with it in subjects such as math as I mentioned above, but you see it with stuff such as history.


That's exactly my point PG, they shouldn't cram and it doesn't work. It still happens though, particularly with people who are focused on belts rather than skills. It just means their ability level is lower than everyone else's for their grade.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Alright Im tired of beating around the bush so I am going to be up front and say what I've got to say and so hopefully after this I won't keep repeating myself. As aggravating as it might be for the people here its aggravating for me too, not being able to make my point, since I am not saying what I should be saying directly but instead more or less talking around it. Anybody who chooses to read this I will say that its going to be quite long, Im telling you now so you can make the choice if you want to sit through the whole thing. So here goes.

Some people here have mentioned that in their dojo, the sensei tells them when they will test and that for a student to be able to sign up for a test without first being told that its not the proper way to do it and in that case its a McDojo. The fact of the matter is, dojos will be run the way the head sensei wants to run it and the head sensei can run it anyway they want within the confines of the law, obviously a sensei cannot do anything illegal in their running of the dojo. So some dojos with some senseis they will require that you be told you can test before you can test and other senseis will leave it up to the student to decide if they want to test when the test rolls around, or at least they will expect the student to ask to test although the sensei might tell them they're not ready but its still up to the student to ask in the first place. So we've established that but that's also beside the point.

The fact of the matter is, some of the people who go to those dojos where you have to wait to be told before you can test, they say they would never ask their sensei when they will test because that's disrespectful. Its disrespectful in that you're questioning the sensei's judgement, that the sensei will tell you when you're ready and until then you're supposed to just shut up and train and not say or ask anything about it. While a sensei certainly has the right to require students to be told before they can test, to not be allowed to even ask or say anything about it that's going a bit too far. I can see how asking a sensei when you will test can be disrespectful but especially if you've been at a certain rank for much longer than it should ordinarily take than you should at least say something about it, if you want to advance. There are some students who might get to a certain rank and then stop pursuing rank and they will be satisfied with the rank they're at. That's fine but if a student does want to advance beyond the rank they're at and its taking longer than it should then there's no reason the student shouldn't use their mouth at that point. At any dojo that uses rank, there is an average length of time it takes most students to go up ranks. If you're taking much longer than average to advance, you want to advance, and you're working hard than saying something shouldn't be a problem. Maybe you shouldn't ask your sensei when you're going to test but instead you could ask them what you need to do to be able to test. Why you're not being told to test and what you need to fix so you can test. That way you will know what to work on. If you're not advancing and you want to advance then there are two reasons why you aren't advancing. Either you're not doing it right or you're not working hard enough. So that would mean if you're working hard and you're still not advancing you should ask your sensei if you're doing it right and if you're not, what you need to correct. Take for instance a brown belt student whose next rank up is black, for the student to say, "Sensei, I want to get a black belt, what do I need to do?" I don't think that's unreasonable. Thats much like a student in academic school who says to their teacher in class, "Teacher, I want to get an A, what do I need to do?" I've never known of any teacher who would consider that disrespectful so I don't see why it would be disrespectful for a brown belt student to ask about the black belt, particularly if they've been a brown belt for long enough. So at some dojos you have to be told before you can test and at some dojos you have to take the initiative and at least ask if you can test but whichever way its done it shouldn't be wrong to ask what you need to do to be able to test and doing so might be the only way that you know you can test. Take for instance a student whose a brown belt and they think they need to be told before they can test for black belt. Enough time has gone by and so they ask their sensei about it. So the dialogue might go something like this.



Student: "Sensei, I want to get a black belt, what do I need to do?"



Sensei: "You need to sign up and take the test and do well enough to pass."



So you see, the student wouldn't even known that they had to take the initiative and sign up to test without being told first. By asking that way the student knows they don't need to be told before they can test but the student will only know that if they use their mouth. 



Also, from my experience its always better to ask the head sensei directly rather than asking other students. Information is best when its straight from the horses mouth, or sensei's mouth in this case.



So that's what I've got to say. I can see how some people might say that asking when you're going to test is disrespectful but asking what you need to do to test shouldn't cause problems and sometimes its the only way a student will know what they need to know.



This of course would only apply to students who want to pursue rank or who want to go beyond the rank they're at. If you're not concerned with rank or if you're satisfied with the rank you've got than this would be a non issue.



Anybody who took the time and patience to read through all this I would like to thank you and feedback from anybody of any sort is most welcome. I said what I had to say and any further posts on this topic will just be answers to feedback from other posters.


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> Alright Im tired of beating around the bush so I am going to be up front and say what I've got to say and so hopefully after this I won't keep repeating myself. As aggravating as it might be for the people here its aggravating for me too, not being able to make my point, since I am not saying what I should be saying directly but instead more or less talking around it. Anybody who chooses to read this I will say that its going to be quite long, Im telling you now so you can make the choice if you want to sit through the whole thing. So here goes.
> 
> Some people here have mentioned that in their dojo, the sensei tells them when they will test and that for a student to be able to sign up for a test without first being told that its not the proper way to do it and in that case its a McDojo. The fact of the matter is, dojos will be run the way the head sensei wants to run it and the head sensei can run it anyway they want within the confines of the law, obviously a sensei cannot do anything illegal in their running of the dojo. So some dojos with some senseis they will require that you be told you can test before you can test and other senseis will leave it up to the student to decide if they want to test when the test rolls around, or at least they will expect the student to ask to test although the sensei might tell them they're not ready but its still up to the student to ask in the first place. So we've established that but that's also beside the point.
> 
> The fact of the matter is, some of the people who go to those dojos where you have to wait to be told before you can test, they say they would never ask their sensei when they will test because that's disrespectful. Its disrespectful in that you're questioning the sensei's judgement, that the sensei will tell you when you're ready and until then you're supposed to just shut up and train and not say or ask anything about it. While a sensei certainly has the right to require students to be told before they can test, to not be allowed to even ask or say anything about it that's going a bit too far. I can see how asking a sensei when you will test can be disrespectful but especially if you've been at a certain rank for much longer than it should ordinarily take than you should at least say something about it, if you want to advance. There are some students who might get to a certain rank and then stop pursuing rank and they will be satisfied with the rank they're at. That's fine but if a student does want to advance beyond the rank they're at and its taking longer than it should then there's no reason the student shouldn't use their mouth at that point. At any dojo that uses rank, there is an average length of time it takes most students to go up ranks. If you're taking much longer than average to advance, you want to advance, and you're working hard than saying something shouldn't be a problem. Maybe you shouldn't ask your sensei when you're going to test but instead you could ask them what you need to do to be able to test. Why you're not being told to test and what you need to fix so you can test. That way you will know what to work on. If you're not advancing and you want to advance then there are two reasons why you aren't advancing. Either you're not doing it right or you're not working hard enough. So that would mean if you're working hard and you're still not advancing you should ask your sensei if you're doing it right and if you're not, what you need to correct. Take for instance a brown belt student whose next rank up is black, for the student to say, "Sensei, I want to get a black belt, what do I need to do?" I don't think that's unreasonable. Thats much like a student in academic school who says to their teacher in class, "Teacher, I want to get an A, what do I need to do?" I've never known of any teacher who would consider that disrespectful so I don't see why it would be disrespectful for a brown belt student to ask about the black belt, particularly if they've been a brown belt for long enough. So at some dojos you have to be told before you can test and at some dojos you have to take the initiative and at least ask if you can test but whichever way its done it shouldn't be wrong to ask what you need to do to be able to test and doing so might be the only way that you know you can test. Take for instance a student whose a brown belt and they think they need to be told before they can test for black belt. Enough time has gone by and so they ask their sensei about it. So the dialogue might go something like this.
> 
> 
> 
> Student: "Sensei, I want to get a black belt, what do I need to do?"
> 
> 
> 
> Sensei: "You need to sign up and take the test and do well enough to pass."
> 
> 
> 
> So you see, the student wouldn't even known that they had to take the initiative and sign up to test without being told first. By asking that way the student knows they don't need to be told before they can test but the student will only know that if they use their mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, from my experience its always better to ask the head sensei directly rather than asking other students. Information is best when its straight from the horses mouth, or sensei's mouth in this case.
> 
> 
> 
> So that's what I've got to say. I can see how some people might say that asking when you're going to test is disrespectful but asking what you need to do to test shouldn't cause problems and sometimes its the only way a student will know what they need to know.
> 
> 
> 
> This of course would only apply to students who want to pursue rank or who want to go beyond the rank they're at. If you're not concerned with rank or if you're satisfied with the rank you've got than this would be a non issue.
> 
> 
> 
> Anybody who took the time and patience to read through all this I would like to thank you and feedback from anybody of any sort is most welcome. I said what I had to say and any further posts on this topic will just be answers to feedback from other posters.



This was perfect reading for when I was holding horse stance and working on endurance, thank you.


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> *Student: "Sensei, I want to get a black belt, what do I need to do?"
> 
> 
> Sensei: "You need to sign up and take the test and do well enough to pass."*


Don't you mean:
_Student: "Sensei, I want to get a black belt, what do I need to do?"_

_Sensei: "You need to...SHUT UP AND TRAIN."_


----------



## Steve

PhotonGuy said:


> Well a student perhaps shouldn't know exactly what's going to be on the test but they should have a basic idea of all the material that would be covered which as you point out is covered in class but if they're unclear about something it shouldn't be a problem to ask. For instance, in school most of the time you don't know exactly what's on a test before you take it. To know exactly what's going to be on say, a math or history or science test would be spoon feeding and that's why they don't show it to you until you take it. But it is not uncommon for students to ask their teachers before a test what they need to study and the teacher will give them a basic idea, tell them the chapters they need to study, ect.


From a training perspective, it seems like what you're referring to is just clear expectations.  I think there's a good point here, PhotonGuy.  You don't have to know what is on the test specifically.  But, it's very reasonable to expect that the objectives for training are clear and well communicated.   And if the system is well constructed, the metrics and standards for each belt rank should be pretty clear.  You should be able to look at a person of a particular rank and conclude that they should meet a predictable standard of competence. 

And as a student, you should be able to look ahead at your next grade and know what you will need to do.

This isn't the only "good" way to do things, but it's certainly one good way.


----------



## Zero

Steve said:


> And if the system is well constructed, the metrics and standards for each belt rank should be pretty clear.  You should be able to look at a person of a particular rank and conclude that they should meet a predictable standard of competence.


You would think so wouldn't you?  And generally that is the case.  What is your experience in bjjj and if you have trained at other bjj clubs?   I have largely found that to be the case in judo and muay thai and kickboxing clubs.

However, I have been quite shocked over the years from time to time, in TKD and karate on running across and sparring with high grades or watching them spar, and they are pretty shocking. Poor technique and control, and just pretty poor when it comes to fighting/tournament. Now they may be great at kata (or at least be astheitcially impressive) but I have come across many bbs and higher which quite frankly suck when it comes to fighting!

My thought is that in grappling arts like judo, bjj, jitsu where you are going to be chocked or tapped if you compete or even roll at the club, you need to up your fight level and keep it up or it shows pretty quickly.  This is also the case with striking styles where the emphasis is on ring time, such as boxing, Muay Thai and kickboxing and kyokoshin.  Now there are of course numerous fighters in karate and TKD styles equally as talented.  But I personally think that due to the ability to continue to grade higher through kata focus, and without much focus on kumite, in _some _clubs you get this kind of thing happening...

I still remember way back when I was a junior in Goju ryu and we had a 3rd dan visit from another club, his kicks were appallng, I remember the sempai's eyes rollling (not so discretely)...


----------



## Geo

Steve said:


> From a training perspective, it seems like what you're referring to is just clear expectations.  I think there's a good point here, PhotonGuy.  You don't have to know what is on the test specifically.  But, it's very reasonable to expect that the objectives for training are clear and well communicated.   And if the system is well constructed, the metrics and standards for each belt rank should be pretty clear.  You should be able to look at a person of a particular rank and conclude that they should meet a predictable standard of competence.
> 
> And as a student, you should be able to look ahead at your next grade and know what you will need to do.
> 
> This isn't the only "good" way to do things, but it's certainly one good way.


I believe that well communicated expectations and more importantly the level of expected technical standards are essential.

In my dojang parents of students come up to me and push their child's promotion even if the student is not ready.  In spite of clearly stating facts the parents still push.  I usually invite the parents to the dojang and get their child to demonstrate their skills. This gives me the opportunity to show the parents objectively their child's skill level at that time.

In my dojang I promote students who meet the technical requirements of their rank according to the syllabus.  Our kup level syllabi is  available for all, no secret agenda here.  All the standards are presented in very clear and concise terms.  I don't mind a student, especially a senior student, coming up to me and ask to be graded.  In fact I encourage it, in these instances I ask them to 'show me' and not just 'tell me'.

Yes martial arts is not just the destination but the physical, emotional and spiritual growth of the person from the journey.  But the journey is made more fruitful when its made clear to us where we are going and how we might get to where we are going.

Peace

Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk


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## PhotonGuy

Zero said:


> Don't you mean:
> _Student: "Sensei, I want to get a black belt, what do I need to do?"_
> 
> _Sensei: "You need to...SHUT UP AND TRAIN."_


Shutting up and training is all fine and good but if that doesn't work Im going to start using my mouth.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Shutting up and training is all fine and good but if that doesn't work Im going to start using my mouth.



You won't learn much (if anything) by flapping your mouth.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> You won't learn much (if anything) by flapping your mouth.


From my experience, not just in the martial arts but with learning in general, its often good to ask questions and most good teachers encourage and expect it.


----------



## Geo

PhotonGuy said:


> From my experience, not just in the martial arts but with learning in general, its often good to ask questions and most good teachers encourage and expect it.


@PhotonGuy

It's good that you clarified your post. When I saw it I wanted to jump straight away but I waited and I wasn't disappointed.  Your first post had a sting in its tail but made sense when you followed it up.

First of all you have a right under Article 19 to express your opinions.  Having said that this right comes with obligations and responsibilities.  In the context of our martial arts community it is respect and courtesy.

I'd like to consider myself as a teacher that encourages students to express themselves albeit' respectfully and with due courtesy not just to me but to other students and asst. instructor in my dojang.  In my experience I never had any trouble with this from the students, its the parents who give me a lot of concern though due to their expectations which are often inconsistent with the tenet of perseverance. 

I believe that if one ceases to learn from a teacher that this issue needs to be communicated to the teacher and the teacher must listen and the teacher is obligated to explore new avenues for learning.  As martial arts teachers we are obligated to impart knowledge not just drill and train participants.

There is a time for learning and a time for talking the wise martial artists should know where and when.

Have a great day and peace.[emoji6] 



Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk


----------



## Zero

Geo said:


> @PhotonGuy
> 
> It's good that you clarified your post. When I saw it I wanted to jump straight away but I waited and I wasn't disappointed.  Your first post had a sting in its tail but made sense when you followed it up.
> 
> First of all you have a right under Article 19 to express your opinions.  Having said that this right comes with obligations and responsibilities.  In the context of our martial arts community it is respect and courtesy.
> 
> I'd like to consider myself as a teacher that encourages students to express themselves albeit' respectfully and with due courtesy not just to me but to other students and asst. instructor in my dojang.  In my experience I never had any trouble with this from the students, its the parents who give me a lot of concern though due to their expectations which are often inconsistent with the tenet of perseverance.
> 
> I believe that if one ceases to learn from a teacher that this issue needs to be communicated to the teacher and the teacher must listen and the teacher is obligated to explore new avenues for learning.  As martial arts teachers we are obligated to impart knowledge not just drill and train participants.
> 
> There is a time for learning and a time for talking the wise martial artists should know where and when.
> 
> Have a great day and peace.[emoji6]
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk


I always think it is a good idea not to get overly gung-ho on so called inherent rights to freedom of expression, one needs to appreciate that this isn't necessarily on an unfettered or unchecked basis.  When you go reaching for your Art.. 19, it's always good to keep Art. 29 of the UN's UDHR in the back on one's mind:

_"In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition *and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society. *_

_These rights and freedoms *may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations*."_

My take on this has always been, sure, you got your freedom of expression until that amounts to you being a loud mouth douche bag and getting into other people's faces. 

Translation for in the dojo:
If you have a question, sure you should ask it - at the appropriate time - no one should take things as route or be a robot.  But if the sensei or club owner tells you it's not the time or its simply not the way they do things, then shut up and train or go find yourself another dojo.

peace.


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> Shutting up and training is all fine and good but if that doesn't work Im going to start using my mouth.


Maybe you could clarify, how do you intend on putting your mouth to use??!


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> Shutting up and training is all fine and good but if that doesn't work Im going to start using my mouth.



Seriously though, if something isn't gelling or doesn't seem right, or you simply can't make sense of it, then you are right to be asking questions when the opportunity presents itself.. That said, and taking my experience in judo, TKD, jujitsu, goju ryu and WC, you can actually train and absorb so much of what many arts have to offer without even speaking or opening your mouth. 

In fact, it's quite common for the sensei in karate or judo to give you a little nudge here to correct your posture/balance, push/kick your foot a bit there and to show you how to improve on your technique without speaking at all.

Aside from the internal aspects of some of the arts (which really in my view do take some verbal explaining) I would go so far as to wager you could effectively learn to high level 85% of what most martial and sport arts have to offer without you or the sensei/coach opening their mouth once.


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> From my experience, not just in the martial arts but with learning in general, its often good to ask questions and most good teachers encourage and expect it.



A class full of five or six year olds all babbling out questions to the teacher just ain't going to be that conducive to learning.

Many junior martial artists are kind of like those five and six year olds just starting out at school.  Last thing they, the sensei or the rest of the class needs, is a bunch of green horns spouting out questions.

It is a cliché but there is also truth in it: "patience grasshopper, patience..."


----------



## Geo

Zero said:


> I always think it is a good idea not to get overly gung-ho on so called inherent rights to freedom of expression, one needs to appreciate that this isn't necessarily on an unfettered or unchecked basis.  When you go reaching for your Art.. 19, it's always good to keep Art. 29 of the UN's UDHR in the back on one's mind:
> 
> _"In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition *and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society. *_
> 
> _These rights and freedoms *may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations*."_
> 
> My take on this has always been, sure, you got your freedom of expression until that amounts to you being a loud mouth douche bag and getting into other people's faces.
> 
> Translation for in the dojo:
> If you have a question, sure you should ask it - at the appropriate time - no one should take things as route or be a robot.  But if the sensei or club owner tells you it's not the time or its simply not the way they do things, then shut up and train or go find yourself another dojo.
> 
> peace.


@Zero

I appreciate your candor in skewering freedom of expression with responsibility.  It's good to know that beneath all those words that you wrote you actually concur with my post.  

I just had a chuckle when you had to bring in the United Nations into it....lighten up mate.

Let us bring back the discussion into your dojo and my dojang.  Nobody likes a loud mouth let alone a smart **** anywhere anytime.  I guess in a nutshell and in very simple terms this is what you are trying to impart and I agree completely.

Be that as it may nowadays some instructors or martial arts teachers still try to put on an autocratic clout for fear of being questioned if not exposed of their inadequacies first as a teacher then second as a martial artist.  I don't sucscribe to the infallibility of martial arts teachers inside the dojo or the dojang due to basic human flaws.

In my dojang I always encourage my more mature students to ask themselves if they are growing as a martial artist or if they are still on the path of their chosen journey and that if it comes to a point that they can no longer grow or move forward then its time for us to part ways.

It doesn't have to come to "Shut and just train".

Peace be with you.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tez3

Geo said:


> It doesn't have to come to "Shut and just train".



To be honest it does when the same person has said the same thing many, many times across a myriad of threads, there really is nothing else to say other than shut up and train or if you are uber polite please shut up and train.  The fact that no one has said STFU and train speaks volumes for the patience of people here.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Zero said:


> Maybe you could clarify, how do you intend on putting your mouth to use??!



Well if its taking me longer than usual to go up a belt I will want to know why. In such a situation I wouldn't ask when Im going to test but I might ask why I haven't been told I could test.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Well if its taking me longer than usual to go up a belt I will want to know why. In such a situation I wouldn't ask when Im going to test but I might ask why I haven't been told I could test.




so you expect to grade in a specific time rather than when you are ready. As you progress it should take longer between gradings, unless you think there is a timescale you must follow.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> so you expect to grade in a specific time rather than when you are ready. As you progress it should take longer between gradings, unless you think there is a timescale you must follow.



In dojos that use ranking systems there is an average length of time it takes for a student to advance. That average length of time would vary from dojo to dojo and yes, with higher belts it often will take longer on the average to go up a belt.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> In dojos that use ranking systems there is an average length of time it takes for a student to advance. That average length of time would vary from dojo to dojo and yes, with higher belts it often will take longer on the average to go up a belt.



You know I love it when you answer me as if I were someone who knew nothing about dojos etc instead of someone with decades of experience.
Going back over your posts over time it seems you are put out that you haven't gained a belt you think you should of in the time you think you should have. You won't find answers on here, we aren't going to validate your performance anxieties by telling you that you are correct and your instructors are wrong.
Good dojos who have a grading system have an approximate timescale, it isn't set in concrete and nearly always is used so that you don't grade too soon, it usually specifies time in a grade before you can start grading for the next belt rather than have an 'average' time for gradings, this would only be of use the beginners really. Our system and many I know of only give that minimum time in grade as any indication of a timescale. It takes as long as it takes, the more impatient you are the harder it is.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> You know I love it when you answer me as if I were someone who knew nothing about dojos etc instead of someone with decades of experience.


You asked a question and I answered. Its that simple. You asked if I believed I should advance in a specific length of time. As I pointed out there is an average length of time depending on the dojo and depending on the belt in which a student takes to advance. While its not scribed in stone I would expect to not take much longer than the average length of time and if it is taking my longer I would want to know why. Its that simple.

As for your decades of experience can you fill me in? 

And BTW, on a side note,  it really isn't appropriate to be sarcastic in writing the way you were above.



Tez3 said:


> Going back over your posts over time it seems you are put out that you haven't gained a belt you think you should of in the time you think you should have. You won't find answers on here, we aren't going to validate your performance anxieties by telling you that you are correct and your instructors are wrong.



I never said my instructors were wrong, Im trying to figure out why some people would consider it wrong to ask about it. You might not consider it wrong but there have been people on this board who have said its disrespectful.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> As for your decades of experience can you fill me in?
> 
> And BTW, on a side note, it really isn't appropriate to be sarcastic in writing the way you were above.



I can fill you in anytime you fancy lol but challenges aren't allowed on here rofl.

You decided I'm being sarcastic, actually I wasn't, I do love it when you prove to me you don't read what has been written.


----------



## Geo

Tez3 said:


> To be honest it does when the same person has said the same thing many, many times across a myriad of threads, there really is nothing else to say other than shut up and train or if you are uber polite please shut up and train.  The fact that no one has said STFU and train speaks volumes for the patience of people here.


@Tez3

STFU and train.....hmmmm.  If you are alluding to one person's insistence to just talk and not train, or labor the point of 'using their mouths to train' here in this forum and if you are sick and tired of seeing it then there are two things you may consider doing.  One is to ignore it and more importantly, two, leave.

Back in the dojo where students pay to learn, if it does get to a point where a student is obviously not satisfied with his or her training then recommend another school,  its their money after all and obviously again the teacher has failed to set and meet expectations.

 In my books martial arts student failure like a 'tango' takes two. The failure of the student is the failure of the teacher. So when it does come to STFU and train its perhaps time.

Cheers mate!

Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tez3

Geo said:


> STFU and train.....hmmmm. If you are alluding to one person's insistence to just talk and not train, or labor the point of 'using their mouths to train' here in this forum and if you are sick and tired of seeing it then there are two things you may consider doing. One is to ignore it and more importantly, two, leave.



I'm afraid you have misunderstood what I had written, I'm not in the least fed up so advice isn't needed. I'm also not your 'mate' I'm my husband's mate, no one else's. 

I was merely pondering that the fact someone hadn't actually said that, plenty have said shut up and train though. I assume you have come late to this saga ( which is continued on a few other threads btw)? It is a saga, on going and never ending and that in itself is interesting, so I'm not going anywhere however your politely worded your 'get lost' to me is.


----------



## Steve

Geo said:


> @Tez3
> 
> STFU and train.....hmmmm.  If you are alluding to one person's insistence to just talk and not train, or labor the point of 'using their mouths to train' here in this forum and if you are sick and tired of seeing it then there are two things you may consider doing.  One is to ignore it and more importantly, two, leave.
> 
> Back in the dojo where students pay to learn, if it does get to a point where a student is obviously not satisfied with his or her training then recommend another school,  its their money after all and obviously again the teacher has failed to set and meet expectations.
> 
> In my books martial arts student failure like a 'tango' takes two. The failure of the student is the failure of the teacher. So when it does come to STFU and train its perhaps time.
> 
> Cheers mate!
> 
> Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk


we all get a little repetitive around here after a while.   There are a few here who like to hold others to a higher standard than the can themselves live up to.   I appreciate your posts and agree.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> I can fill you in anytime you fancy lol but challenges aren't allowed on here rofl.


Describing your background in a sport, skill, or activity such as martial arts is not a challenge.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Geo said:


> @Tez3
> 
> STFU and train.....hmmmm.  If you are alluding to one person's insistence to just talk and not train, or labor the point of 'using their mouths to train' here in this forum and if you are sick and tired of seeing it then there are two things you may consider doing.  One is to ignore it and more importantly, two, leave.


Thank you for spelling it out.



Geo said:


> @Tez3Back in the dojo where students pay to learn, if it does get to a point where a student is obviously not satisfied with his or her training then recommend another school,  its their money after all and obviously again the teacher has failed to set and meet expectations.


Switching schools might not be a bad idea for a student who is just starting out in the martial arts but a student who has been going to a particular school for years and has put in tremendous time and effort might not want to switch.

Another option could be for the student to discuss to the sensei why they're dissatisfied and perhaps come to an arrangement. Sometimes it can be a simple misunderstanding that can be easily cleared up.



Geo said:


> In my books martial arts student failure like a 'tango' takes two. The failure of the student is the failure of the teacher. So when it does come to STFU and train its perhaps time.
> 
> Cheers mate!
> 
> Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk




True. And communication is key to good teaching and good learning. Shutting up isn't exactly the best way to communicate.


----------



## Geo

Tez3 said:


> I'm afraid you have misunderstood what I had written, I'm not in the least fed up so advice isn't needed. I'm also not your 'mate' I'm my husband's mate, no one else's.
> 
> I was merely pondering that the fact someone hadn't actually said that, plenty have said shut up and train though. I assume you have come late to this saga ( which is continued on a few other threads btw)? It is a saga, on going and never ending and that in itself is interesting, so I'm not going anywhere however your politely worded your 'get lost' to me is.


Hi Tez3. 

First if all regarding my reference to you as 'mate'. Here in Australia it is a universally accepted term of friendship and endearment.  It is usually used in non confrontational engagements. 

It is difficult to ascertain ones gender in anonymous forums like this unles you include a gender identifier in your avatar. I personally don't think its necessary.

You obviously took offence to the term that I used, I'm sorry you feel that way but no offence meant. I too am married with three kids all doing martial arts and are instructors in their own right.  My wife is the only one who doesn't do martial arts so we protet her like a precious Faberge' egg.

Yes I have come late into the saga sorry for the unsolicited comments, didn't mean to give advice just voicing an opinion.

Thanks very much and have a great day.  I'll take my seat back in the line and watch the sparring.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tez3

Geo said:


> Hi Tez3.
> 
> First if all regarding my reference to you as 'mate'. Here in Australia it is a universally accepted term of friendship and endearment.  It is usually used in non confrontational engagements.
> 
> It is difficult to ascertain ones gender in anonymous forums like this unles you include a gender identifier in your avatar. I personally don't think its necessary.
> 
> You obviously took offence to the term that I used, I'm sorry you feel that way but no offence meant. I too am married with three kids all doing martial arts and are instructors in their own right.  My wife is the only one who doesn't do martial arts so we protet her like a precious Faberge' egg.
> 
> Yes I have come late into the saga sorry for the unsolicited comments, didn't mean to give advice just voicing an opinion.
> 
> Thanks very much and have a great day.  I'll take my seat back in the line and watch the sparring.
> 
> Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk




No I didn't take offence hence my putting the little smiley with the sentence, people often assume gender I was just pointing out I wasn't a mate, a term often used here as sarcasm. 

I wasn't telling anyone to STFU I was just saying I was surprised no one had, and I _am_ surprised. the reason there has been a lot of talk about shutting up and training is because the same point is being rehashed over and over again, it's literally flogging a dead horse ( we used to have a very good emoticon for that) everyone's agreed that asking questions is fine, at the right time and there's no reason you can't ask why you aren't being considered for grading, everyone's agreed that talking to your instructor is fine just not in the middle of them teaching something, everyone's agreed that knowing when you can grade is a good idea but that it's also down to you training hard to be ready. We've even had a thread from the OP on why he keeps repeating the same thing over and over *until he gets the answer he wants, *his words not mine.


----------



## Zero

Geo said:


> @Zero
> 
> I appreciate your candor in skewering freedom of expression with responsibility.  It's good to know that beneath all those words that you wrote you actually concur with my post.
> 
> I just had a chuckle when you had to bring in the United Nations into it....lighten up mate.
> 
> Let us bring back the discussion into your dojo and my dojang.  Nobody likes a loud mouth let alone a smart **** anywhere anytime.  I guess in a nutshell and in very simple terms this is what you are trying to impart and I agree completely.
> 
> Be that as it may nowadays some instructors or martial arts teachers still try to put on an autocratic clout for fear of being questioned if not exposed of their inadequacies first as a teacher then second as a martial artist.  I don't sucscribe to the infallibility of martial arts teachers inside the dojo or the dojang due to basic human flaws.
> 
> In my dojang I always encourage my more mature students to ask themselves if they are growing as a martial artist or if they are still on the path of their chosen journey and that if it comes to a point that they can no longer grow or move forward then its time for us to part ways.
> 
> It doesn't have to come to "Shut and just train".
> 
> Peace be with you.
> 
> Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk


Geo, mate, if I lightened up anymore, gravity would cease to have an effect on me. 

I simply must have got all excited by your fervent beating of the drum for the UN and its Art 19 and as a champion of free speech (all beautiful things of course).  Let's share some beers sometime and discuss the great ideals but irrelevancies of so much of that thing called "international law". 

But clearly we seem to be on the same page on this one...

...although as said by Tez, for some people and sometimes (and after sometime) it really can be just a matter of SUAJT (I hope that's the right abbreviation) or move on. 

I just don't remember ever having suffered this constant on-going issue as to verification from others or need for such guidance from my sensei/teacher/seniors as to what I needed (or need (hey, even I have a few things left to learn or at least to comprehend more fully)) to do.   Particularly as to getting my hands on the next belt level.  It always seemed pretty clear what was required.  There's never really much mystery as to what is required to advance in MA, be that in competitive kumite/tournaments or kata/displays or obtaining the next grade.


----------



## Zero

Geo said:


> Hi Tez3.
> 
> First if all regarding my reference to you as 'mate'. Here in Australia it is a universally accepted term of friendship and endearment.



Yeah, even though Tez has clarified it was not of issue to her, I remember way back in the day when I did an OE and spent some time pulling pints in a pub in London, I would call patrons "mate" as a purely friendly term (such as "there you go mate" as I set the pint glass down) and some of them did take it the wrong way, I had to explain to them and try to stop myself doing it as some did take it as I was either not being personal with them or maybe being a bit flippant.  Funny old world.


----------



## Danny T

As an instructor I want my students to do well and to progress.
Within that progression there is a required level of proficiency and ability in knowledge and skill.

In over 40 years of training and instructing I have found most students, when it comes to testing, feel they are not ready when I have recommended them for testing as to skill. The material to be tested upon is listed for each level of testing and most know it however, the biggest discrepancy is the subjective aspect of skill level.

Many know the material however, the skill level for the rank is where one either feels they are better than they are or they feel they are not ready. I find more concerns arise when the student feels their skill level is better than it should be and is the area many instructors have the ‘”just train; when you are ready you will be asked to test” attitude.


----------



## Steve

PhotonGuy said:


> Describing your background in a sport, skill, or activity such as martial arts is not a challenge.


Who knows but Tez what she's actually referring to?  But based on context and her pattern of communication, I'm guessing she's trying to be clever by referencing some obscure, colloquial meaning of "fill you in." 

She's just enjoying getting you twisted up, PhotonGuy, and my advice would be for you to just ignore her.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Describing your background in a sport, skill, or activity such as martial arts is not a challenge.



It is when you won't tell us yours........


----------



## pgsmith

Tez3 said:


> It is when you won't tell us yours........


  You do realize Tez, that he doesn't want to share his background in the martial arts because the majority of folks that he repetitively argues with have been training for quite a bit longer than he's been alive.


----------



## Tez3

pgsmith said:


> You do realize Tez, that he doesn't want to share his background in the martial arts because the majority of folks that he repetitively argues with have been training for quite a bit longer than he's been alive.



I believe you are right, I dislike being challenged to provide my credentials by someone who refuses consistently to say what his are, that's why I said challenges aren't allowed on here, because he did say it in a manner that more than implied he was challenging my experience, he clearly didn't take anything I said seriously.


----------



## pgsmith

My kids used to know everything and refused to take anything I said seriously when they were teenagers also. It's amazing how much smarter I became once they got a bit older though.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> It is when you won't tell us yours........



You didn't ask. But if you want me to fill you in, my primary style, Shito Ruy Karate, a style similar to Shotokan, I've been training in for possibly longer than you've been alive. Aside from that I've also got about four years of Judo year of Tae Kwon Do, two years of Muai Thai, and aside from that I've trained here and there in numerous other styles, including styles with weapons.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> I wasn't telling anyone to STFU I was just saying I was surprised no one had, and I _am_ surprised. the reason there has been a lot of talk about shutting up and training is because the same point is being rehashed over and over again, it's literally flogging a dead horse ( we used to have a very good emoticon for that) everyone's agreed that asking questions is fine, at the right time and there's no reason you can't ask why you aren't being considered for grading, everyone's agreed that talking to your instructor is fine just not in the middle of them teaching something, everyone's agreed that knowing when you can grade is a good idea but that it's also down to you training hard to be ready. We've even had a thread from the OP on why he keeps repeating the same thing over and over *until he gets the answer he wants, *his words not mine.



On the contrary, there've been some people who have said its disrespectful to ask questions about rank. You obviously don't take that position based on the answers you've given before including this one but not everybody is like that. So with the point that as you say I keep rehashing over and over again, its addressed to those who say you shouldn't ask about rank or why you're not being graded and Im not trying to get them to change their answers rather Im asking them based on their philosophy, how would they know if they can test if they don't ask?


----------



## PhotonGuy

Steve said:


> Who knows but Tez what she's actually referring to?  But based on context and her pattern of communication, I'm guessing she's trying to be clever by referencing some obscure, colloquial meaning of "fill you in."
> 
> She's just enjoying getting you twisted up, PhotonGuy, and my advice would be for you to just ignore her.



I like chatting and debating with Tez, its like a game of Chess.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> You didn't ask. But if you want me to fill you in, my primary style, Shito Ruy Karate, a style similar to Shotokan, I've been training in for possibly longer than you've been alive. Aside from that I've also got about four years of Judo year of Tae Kwon Do, two years of Muai Thai, and aside from that I've trained here and there in numerous other styles, including styles with weapons.




Wow you've been training for over 62 years, how very cool!


----------



## Xue Sheng

Tez3 said:


> Wow you've been training for over 62 years, how very cool!



LOL

Do you think the kids will kids ever learn


----------



## Transk53

Nope.


----------



## Tez3

As Photonguy must be in his seventies at least to have trained longer than I've been alive, I think if I were him I'd have wanted a black belt long before now. Surely he'd have worked out the answers to his questions by now.


----------



## Steve

PhotonGuy said:


> I like chatting and debating with Tez, its like a game of Chess.


Lol.  That's fine.  As long as you're having fun.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tez3 said:


> Going back over your posts over time it seems you are put out that you haven't gained a belt you think you should of in the time you think you should have.



Actually, PG got the black belt promotion he was concerned about years ago. (Although the promotion was delayed because of a misunderstanding about the need to sign up for the test.) What he seems to keep obsessing about is the proper process for communicating expectations.



Tez3 said:


> everyone's agreed that asking questions is fine, at the right time and there's no reason you can't ask why you aren't being considered for grading, everyone's agreed that talking to your instructor is fine just not in the middle of them teaching something, everyone's agreed that knowing when you can grade is a good idea but that it's also down to you training hard to be ready.



Actually, there have been some significantly different opinions expressed in the various threads PG has started on the subject, some of them contradicting the ideas you just listed. Some of PG's postings seem to be in reaction to those opinions.



Tez3 said:


> I dislike being challenged to provide my credentials by someone who refuses consistently to say what his are,



PG has detailed his training background more than once and I've never noticed him refusing to do so.



PhotonGuy said:


> You didn't ask. But if you want me to fill you in, my primary style, Shito Ruy Karate, a style similar to Shotokan, I've been training in for possibly longer than you've been alive. Aside from that I've also got about four years of Judo year of Tae Kwon Do, two years of Muai Thai, and aside from that I've trained here and there in numerous other styles, including styles with weapons.



PhotonGuy, you definitely pulled out the " _training in for possibly longer than you've been alive"_ card on the wrong person. 

Actually, this is a hazardous forum to make that claim in general, unless you know exactly who you are talking to. I've been training for 34 years now and there are still a number of people here who can consider me to be a young whippersnapper.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> On the contrary, there've been some people who have said its disrespectful to ask questions about rank. You obviously don't take that position based on the answers you've given before including this one but not everybody is like that. So with the point that as you say I keep rehashing over and over again, its addressed to those who say you shouldn't ask about rank or why you're not being graded and Im not trying to get them to change their answers rather Im asking them based on their philosophy, how would they know if they can test if they don't ask?



They keep training hard and wait until they are invited to test.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> On the contrary, there've been some people who have said its disrespectful to ask questions about rank. You obviously don't take that position based on the answers you've given before including this one but not everybody is like that.



It's been said countless times, and you still don't get it. The problem is the focus on RANK, as opposed to focus on SKILL. There's is a vast difference between someone asking me about RANK, vs asking me about TRAINING.



PhotonGuy said:


> So with the point that as you say I keep rehashing over and over again, its addressed to those who say you shouldn't ask about rank or why you're not being graded and Im not trying to get them to change their answers rather Im asking them based on their philosophy, how would they know if they can test if they don't ask?



Again, you confuse rank and skill.


----------



## Transk53

Just out of curiosity PG, you have any evidence of you're ranking?


----------



## Tez3

Tony Dismukes said:


> Actually, there have been some significantly different opinions expressed in the various threads PG has started on the subject, some of them contradicting the ideas you just listed. Some of PG's postings seem to be in reaction to those opinions.



The problem is he never addresses his comments to the people he wants to answer, he uses a scattergun comment which is applied to us all even when we agree with him. His comments are often so random they can't be connected to anything posted then he tells us it's in answer to something else. He contradicts himself so many times it makes reading posts a dizzying experience.
If he's stated what he trains in many of us have missed that post, I know his posts aren't made with any ill will otherwise no one would bother answering, but really with all the good will in the world it's hard to follow his points even though we do try.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Tony Dismukes said:


> PG has detailed his training background more than once and I've never noticed him refusing to do so.



Just out of curiosity, where? I believe i missed that post


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Xue Sheng said:


> Just out of curiosity, where? I believe i missed that post


He mentions some of it in the recent  When did you all start martial arts? thread. (Also in post # 212 above). He covered it more in his original thread about the miscommunication with his instructor way back when, but I don't feel like digging through old posts to track it down.

If I remember correctly, he's around 30 or so and has been training Shito Ryu since age 12, which would give him about 18 years in that art plus some exposure to some other arts as well. Certainly respectable, but not anything to make him a senior practitioner around this forum.


----------



## PhotonGuy

pgsmith said:


> My kids used to know everything and refused to take anything I said seriously when they were teenagers also. It's amazing how much smarter I became once they got a bit older though.



I can't say I've had the same experience.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Wow you've been training for over 62 years, how very cool!



I might've misread it but I thought you said somewhere in an earlier post that you're in your 20s. My main style of Shito Ryu Karate I've been training in for about 25 years. If you're 62 than I stand corrected but as I said I thought you were in your 20s. If you aren't than its my bad.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tony Dismukes said:


> Actually, PG got the black belt promotion he was concerned about years ago. (Although the promotion was delayed because of a misunderstanding about the need to sign up for the test.) What he seems to keep obsessing about is the proper process for communicating expectations.


Well you know there's something wrong when a promotion is delayed for almost ten years. As it was, I had plans that involved getting a black belt by a certain age and my plans depended on that.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Actually, there have been some significantly different opinions expressed in the various threads PG has started on the subject, some of them contradicting the ideas you just listed. Some of PG's postings seem to be in reaction to those opinions.


Thank you for pointing that out.




Tony Dismukes said:


> PG has detailed his training background more than once and I've never noticed him refusing to do so.


That I have although if people keep asking about it I have no objection to that although I do have a reputation here for repeating stuff.



Tony Dismukes said:


> PhotonGuy, you definitely pulled out the " _training in for possibly longer than you've been alive"_ card on the wrong person.
> 
> Actually, this is a hazardous forum to make that claim in general, unless you know exactly who you are talking to. I've been training for 34 years now and there are still a number of people here who can consider me to be a young whippersnapper.



If you're talking about Tez than as I posted previously, I was wrong about her age.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tony Dismukes said:


> He mentions some of it in the recent  When did you all start martial arts? thread. (Also in post # 212 above). He covered it more in his original thread about the miscommunication with his instructor way back when, but I don't feel like digging through old posts to track it down.
> 
> If I remember correctly, he's around 30 or so and has been training Shito Ryu since age 12, which would give him about 18 years in that art plus some exposure to some other arts as well. Certainly respectable, but not anything to make him a senior practitioner around this forum.



Actually Im pushing 40 and yes, I did start training in my main style at the age of 12, although I've had to take some time off in between.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> They keep training hard and wait until they are invited to test.


Well how about if you haven't been invited to test and significantly more than the average length of time it should take for you to test has passed? Obviously you're doing something wrong. It could be as simple as not knowing that you're supposed to take the initiative to test instead of being invited to do so, but you wont know that without asking.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> It's been said countless times, and you still don't get it. The problem is the focus on RANK, as opposed to focus on SKILL. There's is a vast difference between someone asking me about RANK, vs asking me about TRAINING.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you confuse rank and skill.



There is a relationship in that skill is required for rank. So somebody with a high rank is not going to get the high rank without high skills, as I've said countless times.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Transk53 said:


> Just out of curiosity PG, you have any evidence of you're ranking?


Well I do have the certificates but aside from that you can choose to believe me or not. Either way doesn't matter to me.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> Well how about if you haven't been invited to test and significantly more than the average length of time it should take for you to test has passed? Obviously you're doing something wrong. It could be as simple as not knowing that you're supposed to take the initiative to test instead of being invited to do so, but you wont know that without asking.



That is highly unlikely to happen if one trains hard as per their instructor's guidance.

Working out your own problems is part of the process of maturing as a martial artist.


----------



## Danny T

PhotonGuy said:


> Well how about if you haven't been invited to test and significantly more than the average length of time it should take for you to test has passed? Obviously you're doing something wrong. It could be as simple as not knowing that you're supposed to take the initiative to test instead of being invited to do so, but you wont know that without asking.


So did you ask? When you got the answer did you embrace it and do what you were told? 
If so, there you go. 
If not, there you go.


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> I might've misread it but I thought you said somewhere in an earlier post that you're in your 20s. My main style of Shito Ryu Karate I've been training in for about 25 years. If you're 62 than I stand corrected but as I said I thought you were in your 20s. If you aren't than its my bad.


Smooth, very smooth moves!  The ladies always dig it when you say you thought the were younger


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> Well you know there's something wrong when a promotion is delayed for almost ten years. As it was, I had plans that involved getting a black belt by a certain age and my plans depended on that.



I don't follow this, is TonyD just joking or did you really not get your belt because you failed to sign a form??! No way!

Are you saying you got to brown belt and then it took you another ten or twelve years to get the black?  Or that it took you ten years in total, which is a long hard grind but not unusual at all for getting a black belt at some clubs, particularly if you are throwing travel and/or work disruptions into the mix.

What were your "plans"?  Did you want to get the bb or dan belt relatively quickly/early so you could get on with opening up your own school/classes at an early age (all fine if you got the skills and understand the content)?


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> There is a relationship in that skill is required for rank. So somebody with a high rank is not going to get the high rank without high skills, as I've said countless times.


That is the ideal but...

...this unfortunately is simply not the case.  You can come across reasonably high ranked - into the dans - practitioners that are not well rounded at all in the application of their given style. 

I wish what you were saying was true but there are just too many examples out there going against this. I've come across quite a few myself and, while I don't agree with the concept of "if it ain't on Youtube, it ain't real", there are many examples on youtube of "high ranked" persons or persons holding themselves out there to be of high rank that look terrible, both with their fighting application and also with their kata "displays".

I've seen some pretty shocking examples in TKD and across numerous karate styles.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> I might've misread it but I thought you said somewhere in an earlier post that you're in your 20s. My main style of Shito Ryu Karate I've been training in for about 25 years. If you're 62 than I stand corrected but as I said I thought you were in your 20s. If you aren't than its my bad.




I've never mentioned my age anywhere on here before, I have joked with K man about who is older though. Please do carry on thinking I'm in my twenties though!  With my son and daughter in their thirties and forties it cheers me up.


----------



## PhotonGuy

I would like to point out I've never heard of a college advisor telling a student to shut up and study. Students should and usually do feel comfortable about asking their advisor anything they feel they need to ask about getting a college degree and if its a good advisor, they will do a good job to make sure the student is comfortable asking such questions. An advisor who tells a student to shut up and study probably wouldn't keep their job.


----------



## Xue Sheng

A College advisor is not a martial arts teacher and they are there for a different reason. Not to mention that most college advisors are not there talking about the class or what is being studied. They are there to help a student figure out a direction in college, not help them with their homework


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> I would like to point out I've never heard of a college advisor telling a student to shut up and study. Students should and usually do feel comfortable about asking their advisor anything they feel they need to ask about getting a college degree and if its a good advisor, they will do a good job to make sure the student is comfortable asking such questions. An advisor who tells a student to shut up and study probably wouldn't keep their job.




College and university professors and teachers tell them to shut up tactfully.


----------



## Gnarlie

College and university courses are about learning to think in a certain way to analyse and retain information. That type of learning is supported to some extent by discussion.

Martial arts are about learning to think and behave in a certain way through actions. Absolute control of one's own body and mind. The key to understanding that is in the hard work, not in talk. The harder you work, the better you understand.


----------



## pgsmith

PhotonGuy said:


> Actually Im pushing 40 and yes, I did start training in my main style at the age of 12, although I've had to take some time off in between.





PhotonGuy said:


> I would like to point out I've never heard of a college advisor telling a student to shut up and study. Students should and usually do feel comfortable about asking their advisor anything they feel they need to ask about getting a college degree and if its a good advisor, they will do a good job to make sure the student is comfortable asking such questions. An advisor who tells a student to shut up and study probably wouldn't keep their job.



  Sure waited a long time to start college. 
  People can play the anonymous game easily on internet fora, so those on the other end can only judge them by what they post. Going by your posting style and what you've posted in the past, I still think you're a teenager. I told myself I wouldn't argue, but evidently I lied.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> That is highly unlikely to happen if one trains hard as per their instructor's guidance.
> 
> Working out your own problems is part of the process of maturing as a martial artist.



How about, if where the student trains you're supposed to take the initiative and sign up to test or at least ask to test without being invited. The student doesn't know that so they just keep waiting to be invited to test, they will just keep waiting and waiting and not ever test as long as they keep waiting to be invited. I know I mentioned this before but you've dodged it so Im pointing it out again.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Danny T said:


> So did you ask? When you got the answer did you embrace it and do what you were told?
> If so, there you go.
> If not, there you go.


I agree, but you might not get any answer if you don't ask in the first place.


----------



## PhotonGuy

pgsmith said:


> Sure waited a long time to start college.
> People can play the anonymous game easily on internet fora, so those on the other end can only judge them by what they post. Going by your posting style and what you've posted in the past, I still think you're a teenager. I told myself I wouldn't argue, but evidently I lied.



I finished college. You want to think Im a teenager? fine. All too often I do wish I was younger.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Zero said:


> That is the ideal but...
> 
> ...this unfortunately is simply not the case.  You can come across reasonably high ranked - into the dans - practitioners that are not well rounded at all in the application of their given style.
> 
> I wish what you were saying was true but there are just too many examples out there going against this. I've come across quite a few myself and, while I don't agree with the concept of "if it ain't on Youtube, it ain't real", there are many examples on youtube of "high ranked" persons or persons holding themselves out there to be of high rank that look terrible, both with their fighting application and also with their kata "displays".
> 
> I've seen some pretty shocking examples in TKD and across numerous karate styles.



I know there are tons of dojos out there that hand out belts, or they might sell belts where if you pay them enough they will let you pass, even if you do terrible on the test. I would not go to such a dojo, though. I would only go to a dojo that required good skill for rank.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Zero said:


> I don't follow this, is TonyD just joking or did you really not get your belt because you failed to sign a form??! No way!


Because I failed to ask for the form, fill it out, turn it in along with the fee, and take the test.  I mistakenly believed, along with some of the other students, that you had to wait for the Sensei to tell you that you could take the black belt test.



Zero said:


> Are you saying you got to brown belt and then it took you another ten or twelve years to get the black?  Or that it took you ten years in total, which is a long hard grind but not unusual at all for getting a black belt at some clubs, particularly if you are throwing travel and/or work disruptions into the mix.


I got to brown high, and then from there it took me almost ten years to go up that one rank to black. Why? See above.



Zero said:


> What were your "plans"?  Did you want to get the bb or dan belt relatively quickly/early so you could get on with opening up your own school/classes at an early age (all fine if you got the skills and understand the content)?


For one thing I wanted to get a black belt before I turned 20. Getting a black belt was one of the things I wanted to do when I was a teenager.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> How about, if where the student trains you're supposed to take the initiative and sign up to test or at least ask to test without being invited. The student doesn't know that so they just keep waiting to be invited to test, they will just keep waiting and waiting and not ever test as long as they keep waiting to be invited. I know I mentioned this before but you've dodged it so Im pointing it out again.


Are you telling me that in all of the time it took to reach first dan, you never managed to figure this out?

All that contact with other students and black belts. All that contact with instructors and masters. All the times when instructors talk about what testing is about and what is expected. All those Kyu gradings, your own and those of others. All those opportunities in social circumstances outside of training where it could have come up in conversation.  All those times when it could have been discreetly discussed without the need to directly ask the question 'Am I ready and can I test' to an instructor? 

Sorry, but if you weren't aware of that by the time other people were grading, then perhaps you really weren't ready...by the time you reach first dan, you're training so often that you see your fellow trainees and instructors more than you see your family. Add to that any extracurricular socials, and there's plenty of opportunity for a socially adept young candidate to find out how the application process works.

Are you seriously telling me that no senior in your club ever gave you a nudge and asked when you intended to test? Never?


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Because I failed to ask for the form, fill it out, turn it in along with the fee, and take the test. I mistakenly believed, along with some of the other students, that you had to wait for the Sensei to tell you that you could take the black belt test.



It took ten years to work out you needed a form to grade?


----------



## Gnarlie

Tez3 said:


> It took ten years to work out you needed a form to grade?



That's the too long; did not read summary of my previous post!

Something doesn't add up with this story.

Approaching 1st Dan, one should already be such an asset to one's instructor, even in a club where the initiative lies with the student, the instructor would give a nudge where a student would be potentially beneficial as a first dan. If the student is actually an asset i.e. Making the club a pleasant place to be socially for newbies, visitors and colleagues and supporting the instructor as much as possible - in other words READY on more than a technical level.

The question is what were you bringing to the table, PG?


----------



## Tez3

It took me ten years from white to black, it suited me to take my time because I had a full time job working 12hr shifts two school age children, a home to look after and a husband who went on regular deployments. I learnt a lot, not just techniques but how to compete as well as judge and to instruct. There was never a need to hurry. Some of the younger ones overtook me but they didn't boast about it, they knew my situation and in the end I think I actually know more and have more experience for taking my time.


----------



## Chris Parker

PhotonGuy said:


> There is a relationship in that skill is required for rank.



No there isn't.

Seriously.

There is no universal requirement for rank at all. None. It doesn't matter what your idealised, romanticised, largely unrealistic beliefs are… while some systems might be purely technical in terms of rank being awarded, that's actually not even the most important aspect in many cases. If you look to traditional systems, ranking is more about hierarchy and authority within a system… which might have skill-based aspects to it… or be about time-in-system… or relationships… or political reasons… or anything else.

Your insistence on applying your own beliefs and idealised imagery on all martial arts, and dismissing anything that doesn't fit it (when challenged on this, you talk about other schools that might let you buy a belt/rank… but you'd "never train there"… doesn't matter fi you would or not, their presence shows that you're wrong… and they're not even the more important example) simply shows a real lack of being able to grasp anything that's already outside your beliefs. There's more of that coming, of course… 



PhotonGuy said:


> So somebody with a high rank is not going to get the high rank without high skills, as I've said countless times.



You can say it as many times as you want, it's both currently and historically wrong.



PhotonGuy said:


> I would like to point out I've never heard of a college advisor telling a student to shut up and study. Students should and usually do feel comfortable about asking their advisor anything they feel they need to ask about getting a college degree and if its a good advisor, they will do a good job to make sure the student is comfortable asking such questions. An advisor who tells a student to shut up and study probably wouldn't keep their job.



Bluntly, you have not ever, and continue not to have any grasp of what "shut up and train" actually refers to… and this attempted simile of a college advisor is just idiotic. You might as well say that you've never heard of a chef telling you to shut up and cook… and you'd be wrong again. 

Assuming that you're meaning a professor, or tutor, or some other form of teacher, rather than an advisor (which would at least be closer to what you're trying to say), then yeah, they do. You want this degree, you do the study. You don't just turn up and have the teacher fill out the test for you, or just give you the answers without you having done some work for it.

But that's still kinda besides the point… so I'm going to try to spell this out for you.

Shut up and train means, simply, that, if you want the skills and answers, they're not found in whining on a forum, gossiping at the school, standing around and hypothesising about it all… they're found in the physical training itself. You want to get a black belt? Stop whining and put in the work. You want the skill? Stop whining and put in the work. You want to understand this technique? Stop standing around talking about what you think it might be, and do it. 

Martial arts are "doing" things. Do them. 

And, yes, I know this is some psychosis from your past, and you can't do anything about it now, although frankly what you can do (and should) is to let it go… you're never going to change it, and you're never going to get past it otherwise… but you keep bringing it up.

I get it. You wanted to get your black belt in your timetable. You didn't. The reason doesn't matter. You might have known about the form, asking, or whatever bureaucratic lunacy you're blaming, and still not gotten it in your schedule. Deal with it, get over it, and move on.

Seriously, dude.

Shut up and train.


----------



## Danny T

PhotonGuy said:


> I agree, but you might not get any answer if you don't ask in the first place.


My question that you didn't answer was, "So did you ask?"


PhotonGuy said:


> There is a relationship in that skill is required for rank. So somebody with a high rank is not going to get the high rank without high skills, as I've said countless times.


No not really.
I was recently awarded the 2nd highest level one can achieve within a system and organization because of my time and continued support throughout the past 30 years. I continue to teach and bring in highly skill members to the system. My personal skills/abilities have waned over the years due to injuries and age.


----------



## pgsmith

PhotonGuy said:


> I finished college. You want to think Im a teenager? fine. All too often I do wish I was younger.



  If that's the case, the fact that a man of your (supposed) age and experience can be mistaken for a teenager in your way of thinking and expressing yourself indicates much deeper problems. You should get professional help for that in my opinion. It would do you much more good than endless invalid arguments in a martial arts forum.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> Are you telling me that in all of the time it took to reach first dan, you never managed to figure this out?
> 
> All that contact with other students and black belts. All that contact with instructors and masters. All the times when instructors talk about what testing is about and what is expected. All those Kyu gradings, your own and those of others. All those opportunities in social circumstances outside of training where it could have come up in conversation.  All those times when it could have been discreetly discussed without the need to directly ask the question 'Am I ready and can I test' to an instructor?
> 
> Sorry, but if you weren't aware of that by the time other people were grading, then perhaps you really weren't ready...by the time you reach first dan, you're training so often that you see your fellow trainees and instructors more than you see your family. Add to that any extracurricular socials, and there's plenty of opportunity for a socially adept young candidate to find out how the application process works.
> 
> Are you seriously telling me that no senior in your club ever gave you a nudge and asked when you intended to test? Never?



The reason it took me so long to figure this out is because I didn't as the head instructor.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Danny T said:


> My question that you didn't answer was, "So did you ask?"


No I didn't. A mistake on my part.



Danny T said:


> No not really.
> I was recently awarded the 2nd highest level one can achieve within a system and organization because of my time and continued support throughout the past 30 years. I continue to teach and bring in highly skill members to the system. My personal skills/abilities have waned over the years due to injuries and age.



In some systems, the ranks beyond 5th degree are earned not through testing and not through skill but rather through how much you put into the art, how much you contribute to the art, how well you teach the art, ect. Not all systems might be like that but I know some are such as my main system. So personal skills and abilities don't come into play when earning really high ranks at least with some systems.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Chris Parker said:


> No there isn't.
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> There is no universal requirement for rank at all. None. It doesn't matter what your idealised, romanticised, largely unrealistic beliefs are… while some systems might be purely technical in terms of rank being awarded, that's actually not even the most important aspect in many cases. If you look to traditional systems, ranking is more about hierarchy and authority within a system… which might have skill-based aspects to it… or be about time-in-system… or relationships… or political reasons… or anything else.
> 
> Your insistence on applying your own beliefs and idealised imagery on all martial arts, and dismissing anything that doesn't fit it (when challenged on this, you talk about other schools that might let you buy a belt/rank… but you'd "never train there"… doesn't matter fi you would or not, their presence shows that you're wrong… and they're not even the more important example) simply shows a real lack of being able to grasp anything that's already outside your beliefs. There's more of that coming, of course…


At my dojo good skill is required for rank. I can't speak for other dojos but at my dojo you're not going to advance in rank if you don't have the required skill.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> It took ten years to work out you needed a form to grade?


No it took me close to ten years to figure out that I had to register for the test and take the test without being asked first.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> It took me ten years from white to black, it suited me to take my time because I had a full time job working 12hr shifts two school age children, a home to look after and a husband who went on regular deployments. I learnt a lot, not just techniques but how to compete as well as judge and to instruct. There was never a need to hurry. Some of the younger ones overtook me but they didn't boast about it, they knew my situation and in the end I think I actually know more and have more experience for taking my time.



Its not uncommon for it to take ten years time total for a person to get a black belt if you start counting from day one. You have your own reasons why it took you ten years, you were very busy with lots of other stuff going on.

For people to bypass you in rank, its nothing to boast about. Everybody has their reasons why they might advance faster or slower.

What I think is ridiculous though, is for somebody who wants to advance, for them to take ten years to go up just one rank. For it to take somebody ten years to go from brown to black is a bit absurd.


----------



## PhotonGuy

pgsmith said:


> If that's the case, the fact that a man of your (supposed) age and experience can be mistaken for a teenager in your way of thinking and expressing yourself indicates much deeper problems. You should get professional help for that in my opinion. It would do you much more good than endless invalid arguments in a martial arts forum.


As a matter of fact posting here and getting responses here has helped me out a great deal.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> No it took me close to ten years to figure out that I had to register for the test and take the test without being asked first.



Ok... So you're a little slow on the uptake. We get that. Believe me, we are all abundantly clear on that. 
So do you really need to whine about your deficiencies for ten years?



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> Ok... So you're a little slow on the uptake. We get that. Believe me, we are all abundantly clear on that.
> So do you really need to whine about your deficiencies for ten years?


There were some people on this thread asking and I was explaining. And are you saying I was deficient?


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> The reason it took me so long to figure this out is because I didn't as the head instructor.



You are missing the point. Go back and read my post again.

My point is, there are a myriad of opportunities to obtain this information WITHOUT asking the instructor.

If you are a well liked and technically capable student, other people will push you forward, will ask you when you are planning to test. How did this not happen to you in ten years??


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> As a matter of fact posting here and getting responses here has helped me out a great deal.



If you are not going to read and address the points people make, I very much doubt that.


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> As a matter of fact posting here and getting responses here has helped me out a great deal.


I hope it has, I really do! Look PGSmith may have come on a bit harsh but he is actually trying to be positive and helpful I think.  I have to confess, I took you to be much, much younger also from many of your posts and the form of your responses.  I find it hard to reconcile to you saying you are around 40 years old.  I am not having a go at you at all, I am just pointing that out.


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> I know there are tons of dojos out there that hand out belts, or they might sell belts where if you pay them enough they will let you pass, even if you do terrible on the test. I would not go to such a dojo, though. I would only go to a dojo that required good skill for rank.


Look, I think there may be another angle here.

First off, I find it a terrible mix of black humour and tragedy that you didn't move up from brown to black for like ten years, all because of some misunderstanding about having to register to do so.  It is very hard to believe that a student capable of reaching brown belt would be spinning his cogs for ten years without the sensei coming over to him and asking questions.  To me something doesn't add up there.

But my bigger concern is what the hell was the sensei (and possibly his senior assistants) thinking?  What was his game?  It seems poor form (almost tantamount to robbing you of your monthly subs) that he had a student who had _made it to brown belt level_ and that he let them continue to come to class but spin their wheels for TEN years without going to them and saying, "_yo, homes, wot up? Why you never registered or filled in that form to go up to black belt, don't you wanna grade, are you happy just putting in the hard work and hours, because if you are, that's cool but I would just like to know???_" 

If your sensei and club was that disinterested in a student's progression, I would be thinking about putting them at a level possibly worse in some respects than your black belt conveyor belt schools and mcdojos.


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> At my dojo good skill is required for rank. I can't speak for other dojos but at my dojo you're not going to advance in rank if you don't have the required skill.


No, it sounds like at your school what was required is filling in a form and registering for the rank.

Right?

Otherwise, if you had the skill to get to brown at your school and had soaked up more skill and understanding from being there for an additional ten years on top of that, you should have been graded up to black in any event!


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> You are missing the point. Go back and read my post again.
> 
> My point is, there are a myriad of opportunities to obtain this information WITHOUT asking the instructor.
> 
> If you are a well liked and technically capable student, other people will push you forward, will ask you when you are planning to test. How did this not happen to you in ten years??



Many of the students and even some of the assistant instructors mistakenly believed that you had to get approval by the head instructor to test for the black belt before you could test. For the lower belts you didn't have to get the head instructor's approval but the mistaken belief that you had to get his approval to test for black belt was a longstanding myth in my dojo.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Zero said:


> I hope it has, I really do! Look PGSmith may have come on a bit harsh but he is actually trying to be positive and helpful I think.  I have to confess, I took you to be much, much younger also from many of your posts and the form of your responses.  I find it hard to reconcile to you saying you are around 40 years old.  I am not having a go at you at all, I am just pointing that out.



I take what PGSmith says, and what a lot of other people here say, with a grain of salt. As it was I thought PGSmith got tired of what I was saying and had put me on ignore but supposedly he's taken me off since he's directly responding to my posts. If you thought I was much younger than I am that's fine, I once thought Tez was much younger than she was. I often do wish I was younger.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Zero said:


> Look, I think there may be another angle here.
> 
> First off, I find it a terrible mix of black humour and tragedy that you didn't move up from brown to black for like ten years, all because of some misunderstanding about having to register to do so.  It is very hard to believe that a student capable of reaching brown belt would be spinning his cogs for ten years without the sensei coming over to him and asking questions.  To me something doesn't add up there.
> 
> But my bigger concern is what the hell was the sensei (and possibly his senior assistants) thinking?  What was his game?  It seems poor form (almost tantamount to robbing you of your monthly subs) that he had a student who had _made it to brown belt level_ and that he let them continue to come to class but spin their wheels for TEN years without going to them and saying, "_yo, homes, wot up? Why you never registered or filled in that form to go up to black belt, don't you wanna grade, are you happy just putting in the hard work and hours, because if you are, that's cool but I would just like to know???_"
> 
> If your sensei and club was that disinterested in a student's progression, I would be thinking about putting them at a level possibly worse in some respects than your black belt conveyor belt schools and mcdojos.



Some people don't care about advancing any further in rank and if you're one of those students the sensei won't say anything about it. I know a student who is at low brown which is three ranks lower than black and he's been at that rank for many years and he says he doesn't care to advance any further, he just wants to keep coming to class to get better in general but he doesn't care for rank anymore. My sensei doesn't push him to test for rank because he respects it if a student doesn't care to test, so if you don't ask to test the sensei won't say anything about it, he will just assume that you don't care to test. 

I am actually going to make reference, believe it or not to something Dirty Dog has said that some students just care about skill not rank and those students my sensei does not push to test. My dojo really helps students to develop skill but if you want rank aside from having adequate skill you also have to test which not all students do. Some students just don't care to test.

So if a student is spinning their cogs for ten years my dojo will definitely help them develop skill, but rank also requires testing.

As for caring about rank vs caring about skill, I care about both, at least at my dojo. I don't care much about rank from other dojos, certainly not dojos that I don't attend.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Zero said:


> No, it sounds like at your school what was required is filling in a form and registering for the rank.
> 
> Right?
> 
> Otherwise, if you had the skill to get to brown at your school and had soaked up more skill and understanding from being there for an additional ten years on top of that, you should have been graded up to black in any event!



No you fill in the form to register to test. Then you have to do good enough on the test to pass and only then do you get the rank. Students do fail. It doesn't matter how good your skill is, you aren't going to go up in rank if you don't pass the test, and passing a test would obviously require taking it in the first place.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> Many of the students and even some of the assistant instructors mistakenly believed that you had to get approval by the head instructor to test for the black belt before you could test. For the lower belts you didn't have to get the head instructor's approval but the mistaken belief that you had to get his approval to test for black belt was a longstanding myth in my dojo.



What about the people who had already done the test? Why not ask someone who has been through it?

Were you the only person with this problem?

Why didn't you ask how the process works? Instead of 'can I test', or 'when can I test', perhaps a pertinent but less direct and more fitting question would be 'how does the testing process work here?'.

I still view this as a problem of your own creation.


----------



## Geo

Hi guys

After 273 replies this thread is going nowhere.  If anyone bothered to actually read the original post before posting a reply one would perhaps be more inclined with PG regarding the martial arts journey.  Does any one really object or disagree with martial arts being the journey and not so much the destination?  

A lot of mud has been slung, a lot of integrity questioned, a lot characters shot down.  All these without a shred of hesitation, courtesy and self control.  As martial artists do we want to personify the resultant flaws that we endeavour to overcome through the practice of philosophical aspects of our art?  How we have behaved towards PG is nothing short of mobocracy (in my books).  If we teach martial arts is this a practice that we wish to impart to our students? 

PG is standing in a soap box articulating issues that are very personal to him and perhaps in his view relevant to the martial arts community.  All of us in this forum have two options; one stop and debate PG or, two stop, listen (in this case look/read) and move on.  If members stop and debate PG he will stay on his soap box if we move on ..well.. the result is obvious.

In my dojang I teach hosinsul (self defence) first rule I teach is to avoid situations which may compromise your person, in every sense of the word.  We don't get paid to break our faces and spirit like those poor souls at the UFC.  So if we believe that we may potentially be spiritually aggrieved by lingering in this thread do we really want to linger?  

_Avoidance - staying away from people, places and things that can get you hurt or get you in trouble._

Have a great day everyone!


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> Some people don't care about advancing any further in rank and if you're one of those students the sensei won't say anything about it. I know a student who is at low brown which is three ranks lower than black and he's been at that rank for many years and he says he doesn't care to advance any further, he just wants to keep coming to class to get better in general but he doesn't care for rank anymore. My sensei doesn't push him to test for rank because he respects it if a student doesn't care to test, so if you don't ask to test the sensei won't say anything about it, he will just assume that you don't care to test.
> 
> I am actually going to make reference, believe it or not to something Dirty Dog has said that some students just care about skill not rank and those students my sensei does not push to test. My dojo really helps students to develop skill but if you want rank aside from having adequate skill you also have to test which not all students do. Some students just don't care to test.
> 
> So if a student is spinning their cogs for ten years my dojo will definitely help them develop skill, but rank also requires testing.
> 
> As for caring about rank vs caring about skill, I care about both, at least at my dojo. I don't care much about rank from other dojos, certainly not dojos that I don't attend.


I'm sorry but I cannot follow the logic here.  You have put yourself forward as a prime example of someone who was spinning their clogs with respect to the grading/rank side of things and who wanted very much so to be graded up.

That is very different to someone also at a similar rank but that was very happy not to focus on the belt/grade side of things.

Your club was not at all helpful to you - it appears they did not once say, hey, by the way, just letting you know if you want to progress in rank, you need to fill in a form and register.  The fact that no senior or the school head/owner once took the time over ten years to discuss what your desires and goals were, reeks of a place that has no real interest in their members or their members' development.  Now, I'm not a school owner or sensei but have trained many junior students and actually a lot of seniors and I don't just assume what the student's desire or goal is or even if they comprehend what I am teaching.  I watch their execution to see if they really understand, I spar with them to test their ability and _talk with them_.  Seems like your sensei wasn't doing any talking/communication...now, this could be understandable if it was a huge/McDojo class so there no time to discuss things or focus on the individual from time to time...

Sorry but that's my take on this.


----------



## Zero

Geo said:


> Hi guys
> 
> After 273 replies this thread is going nowhere.  If anyone bothered to actually read the original post before posting a reply one would perhaps be more inclined with PG regarding the martial arts journey.  Does any one really object or disagree with martial arts being the journey and not so much the destination?
> 
> A lot of mud has been slung, a lot of integrity questioned, a lot characters shot down.  All these without a shred of hesitation, courtesy and self control.  As martial artists do we want to personify the resultant flaws that we endeavour to overcome through the practice of philosophical aspects of our art?  How we have behaved towards PG is nothing short of mobocracy (in my books).  If we teach martial arts is this a practice that we wish to impart to our students?
> 
> PG is standing in a soap box articulating issues that are very personal to him and perhaps in his view relevant to the martial arts community.  All of us in this forum have two options; one stop and debate PG or, two stop, listen (in this case look/read) and move on.  If members stop and debate PG he will stay on his soap box if we move on ..well.. the result is obvious.
> 
> In my dojang I teach hosinsul (self defence) first rule I teach is to avoid situations which may compromise your person, in every sense of the word.  We don't get paid to break our faces and spirit like those poor souls at the UFC.  So if we believe that we may potentially be spiritually aggrieved by lingering in this thread do we really want to linger?
> 
> _Avoidance - staying away from people, places and things that can get you hurt or get you in trouble._
> 
> Have a great day everyone!


Thanks Geo, sound words of wisdom here.

That said, personally, I am not suffering any hurt whatsoever (not on a spiritual level or otherwise), I don't see the need to "avoid" and don't even see this as a confrontation, more like an extended dialogue, primarily with PG.  PG himself/herself has stated, surprisingly (or not) as it may seem, that this (what you may call) soapbox diatribe is actually of some benefit to him/her.

Maybe, the opposite to your approach is what is required.  Maybe we owe PG more, more than just moving on.  Maybe we owe it to PG to keep up this discussion, in the hope that someday PG will see some sense in what many of the posters on this thread are saying.  Now, that may be a less than hopeless case - but that is just when hope is needed most.

As an aside, I don't even know what you are referencing when you talk about philosophical aspects of our arts.  My art has no spiritual or philosophical side, it is about being a better fighter, and I tailor that myself to ring competition and separately for SD. If I am sitting cross legged on tatami in front of some incense, it's only to clear my mind better to comprehend some teachings or to prepare for a fight to come.  The only times we get philosophical is about things like "man, you sure got hurt that time"..."yeah, people can get hurt when they fight, huh, imagine that".

peace


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> ...and passing a test would obviously require taking it in the first place.



Not always, sometimes not taking the test (or in your case, failing to take the test) is the test in itself.

Oss


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> What about the people who had already done the test? Why not ask someone who has been through it?


I do know that some of the people who had taken the test had asked the Sensei if they were ready prior to taking the test. I didn't find that out until after I had learned that you didn't have to be invited to take the test. The reason I didn't ask Sensei that was because its sometimes considered disrespectful, as some of the people on this board have pointed out.



Gnarlie said:


> Were you the only person with this problem?


I do know of one other student who, like me, was waiting to be told he could test. He found out that you didn't have to be invited to test around the same time I did.



Gnarlie said:


> Why didn't you ask how the process works? Instead of 'can I test', or 'when can I test', perhaps a pertinent but less direct and more fitting question would be 'how does the testing process work here?'.
> 
> I still view this as a problem of your own creation.



That does make sense, perhaps I didn't think to ask that or perhaps I was afraid to.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Zero said:


> Your club was not at all helpful to you - it appears they did not once say, hey, by the way, just letting you know if you want to progress in rank, you need to fill in a form and register.  The fact that no senior or the school head/owner once took the time over ten years to discuss what your desires and goals were, reeks of a place that has no real interest in their members or their members' development.  Now, I'm not a school owner or sensei but have trained many junior students and actually a lot of seniors and I don't just assume what the student's desire or goal is or even if they comprehend what I am teaching.  I watch their execution to see if they really understand, I spar with them to test their ability and _talk with them_.  Seems like your sensei wasn't doing any talking/communication...now, this could be understandable if it was a huge/McDojo class so there no time to discuss things or focus on the individual from time to time...


You could say that there was some lack of communication at my dojo in regards to what you just pointed out. My Sensei is from Japan so there is the language and cultural barrier. But, communication also involves the student, the student has to play their part too in terms of communication for it to work.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Zero said:


> Not always, sometimes not taking the test (or in your case, failing to take the test) is the test in itself.
> 
> Oss


I guess you could say that, but if you fail to take the test, that's certainly not passing its failing.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Yes..... but failing to take the test would be defined as "neglecting to do something". Failing the test would be defined as "being unsuccessful in achieving one's goal"


----------



## Chris Parker

PhotonGuy said:


> At my dojo good skill is required for rank. I can't speak for other dojos but at my dojo you're not going to advance in rank if you don't have the required skill.



Well, you seem to have missed pretty much everything I said there, but I'm going to throw another spanner in the works here…

What makes you think that "good skill" is required at your dojo? How do you know what "good skill" is?



PhotonGuy said:


> What I think is ridiculous though, is for somebody who wants to advance, for them to take ten years to go up just one rank. For it to take somebody ten years to go from brown to black is a bit absurd.



Maybe they are just, well, not good enough.

Here's the thing… you (generic "you") might want to advance… but, if you're not advancing, perhaps it's because you're just not good enough. Not everyone is, after all…



PhotonGuy said:


> As a matter of fact posting here and getting responses here has helped me out a great deal.



How? I'm genuinely curious here… as it's not the type of "help" that Paul was suggesting you need… I mean… this is one of about half a dozen threads you've had on these ideas… over the last two years or more… and you've never really shown any change, growth, or broadening of your grasp of what's been said, or your own concepts and understandings in all that time. So, how has it helped? It really doesn't look like it's done anything at all.



PhotonGuy said:


> Many of the students and even some of the assistant instructors mistakenly believed that you had to get approval by the head instructor to test for the black belt before you could test. For the lower belts you didn't have to get the head instructor's approval but the mistaken belief that you had to get his approval to test for black belt was a longstanding myth in my dojo.



Needing approval is not the same as not being able to broach the subject. For instance, if my guys want to grade, they'll ask me what they need to work on for their next assessment… or if they can be assessed (note: assessed, not graded). I can (and have) said to them that they're not in a position to be assessed yet… in other words, not given approval… but I have also told them what needs to be worked on for them to be ready.



PhotonGuy said:


> I take what PGSmith says, and what a lot of other people here say, with a grain of salt.



I suggest you don't. Instead, I suggest you take each comment as being more of a "tough love" response… something that, ideally, is meant to be taken to heart. To take them with "a grain of salt" is to miss much of the intended message.



PhotonGuy said:


> Some people don't care about advancing any further in rank and if you're one of those students the sensei won't say anything about it. I know a student who is at low brown which is three ranks lower than black and he's been at that rank for many years and he says he doesn't care to advance any further, he just wants to keep coming to class to get better in general but he doesn't care for rank anymore. My sensei doesn't push him to test for rank because he respects it if a student doesn't care to test, so if you don't ask to test the sensei won't say anything about it, he will just assume that you don't care to test.
> 
> I am actually going to make reference, believe it or not to something Dirty Dog has said that some students just care about skill not rank and those students my sensei does not push to test. My dojo really helps students to develop skill but if you want rank aside from having adequate skill you also have to test which not all students do. Some students just don't care to test.
> 
> So if a student is spinning their cogs for ten years my dojo will definitely help them develop skill, but rank also requires testing.
> 
> As for caring about rank vs caring about skill, I care about both, at least at my dojo. I don't care much about rank from other dojos, certainly not dojos that I don't attend.



None of this has anything to do with you and your situation as you have presented it… and is filled, as usual, with your assumptions that often fall down in the face of reality.



Geo said:


> Hi guys



Hi Geo.



Geo said:


> After 273 replies this thread is going nowhere.  If anyone bothered to actually read the original post before posting a reply one would perhaps be more inclined with PG regarding the martial arts journey.  Does any one really object or disagree with martial arts being the journey and not so much the destination?



Look, I'm going to say a few things here… I'm not sure how much you've followed PGs posts (or this thread, really), but there are a number of reasons that the thread went the way it did… and, as far as the OP itself, that was PG attempting to express what he's been told, with little to no real grasp of the concepts he's talking about… instead, more parroting what he's heard… which is why you had people on the first page asking why he was posting it (a question, a statement… ?).  



Geo said:


> A lot of mud has been slung, a lot of integrity questioned, a lot characters shot down.  All these without a shred of hesitation, courtesy and self control.  As martial artists do we want to personify the resultant flaws that we endeavour to overcome through the practice of philosophical aspects of our art?  How we have behaved towards PG is nothing short of mobocracy (in my books).  If we teach martial arts is this a practice that we wish to impart to our students?



Believe me, there has been plenty of courtesy and self control… but, after going through the same thing many, many times over with the OP, it has been found that bluntness is the only way to communicate and get any form of response. Is it optimal? Maybe… or maybe not. However, nothing else has worked, or even come close to working.

I would also ask, though, what you are identifying as the "philosophical aspect of our art"? I mean… how would you know what such aspects of my arts are, for instance? Even then, would you not agree that finding the most effective way of dealing with a situation is within martial arts philosophy? Or that the idea of facing reality is part of it?

Can you see how the idea of pacifistic fantasy, we should all get along ideals are actually not much to do with actual martial arts, no matter how much people like to think they are?



Geo said:


> PG is standing in a soap box articulating issues that are very personal to him and perhaps in his view relevant to the martial arts community.  All of us in this forum have two options; one stop and debate PG or, two stop, listen (in this case look/read) and move on.  If members stop and debate PG he will stay on his soap box if we move on ..well.. the result is obvious.



This is a discussion forum. Are you seriously suggesting that we don't engage in discussion?



Geo said:


> In my dojang I teach hosinsul (self defence) first rule I teach is to avoid situations which may compromise your person, in every sense of the word.  We don't get paid to break our faces and spirit like those poor souls at the UFC.  So if we believe that we may potentially be spiritually aggrieved by lingering in this thread do we really want to linger?



"Those poor souls at the UFC"?? "Spiritually aggrieved"?? 

Right… 



Geo said:


> _Avoidance - staying away from people, places and things that can get you hurt or get you in trouble._
> 
> Have a great day everyone!



Sure.


----------



## Tgace

> What I think is ridiculous though, is for somebody who wants to advance, for them to take ten years to go up just one rank. For it to take somebody ten years to go from brown to black is a bit absurd.



Maybe this has been addressed upthread, but Im too lazy to dig through it.

Are we talking about a school that makes EVERYONE take that long to advance? Is this some sort of money making scam to hold paying students for as long as possible?

Or are we discussing a single person (or two or three) who just cant pass promotional tests?


----------



## Tgace

Chris Parker said:


> This is a discussion forum. Are you seriously suggesting that we don't engage in discussion?



Well...there can be some confusion between discussion, argument and lecturing around here sometimes.


----------



## RowdyAz

Too true, some very knowledgeable martial artists on here whom look down on anyone that doesn't see things there way and speak fluently as though to intellectual for the average student. Still I remain unfazed and read all such posts with a grin and feel deeply for these wisemen who in there minds have seen it all and they loathe peasants like me.

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk


----------



## PhotonGuy

Chris Parker said:


> Well, you seem to have missed pretty much everything I said there, but I'm going to throw another spanner in the works here…
> 
> What makes you think that "good skill" is required at your dojo? How do you know what "good skill" is?


I've been training in the martial arts for more than a score, most of the training has been done at my primary dojo but I've been to multiple other dojos and I've seen what their standards are. My dojo has very high standards for advancement compared to most of the other dojos I've been to. I've also been to many tournaments where many students from many other dojos compete. Students at my dojo tend to do very well against students of other dojos. Also, there are students who start out at other dojos and then transfer to my dojo and at my dojo they say that advancement is harder and that they get more out of training at my dojo than they did at their former dojos. So that is what I base my judgement of good skill on, how my dojo matches up to many of the other dojos that I've visited or attended or have seen performances of from their students.



Chris Parker said:


> Maybe they are just, well, not good enough.
> 
> Here's the thing… you (generic "you") might want to advance… but, if you're not advancing, perhaps it's because you're just not good enough. Not everyone is, after all…


Than you need work. If you're not good enough that's where hard work comes in, so you can make yourself good enough.



Chris Parker said:


> How? I'm genuinely curious here… as it's not the type of "help" that Paul was suggesting you need… I mean… this is one of about half a dozen threads you've had on these ideas… over the last two years or more… and you've never really shown any change, growth, or broadening of your grasp of what's been said, or your own concepts and understandings in all that time. So, how has it helped? It really doesn't look like it's done anything at all.


Well I have gone though change and growth from posting on these boards and from some of the responses. Whether or not you've seen it is a different story.



Chris Parker said:


> Needing approval is not the same as not being able to broach the subject. For instance, if my guys want to grade, they'll ask me what they need to work on for their next assessment… or if they can be assessed (note: assessed, not graded). I can (and have) said to them that they're not in a position to be assessed yet… in other words, not given approval… but I have also told them what needs to be worked on for them to be ready.


Well that's good. In this case I do agree with your methods. There is no reason why a student shouldn't be able to ask what they need to work on or if they can be assessed. And if they aren't assessed than they should know why they weren't given approval which as you just pointed out, you tell them why. 

Failure or not being ready isn't necessarily a bad thing, what's bad is if you don't know why you've failed or why you're not ready.




Chris Parker said:


> I suggest you don't. Instead, I suggest you take each comment as being more of a "tough love" response… something that, ideally, is meant to be taken to heart. To take them with "a grain of salt" is to miss much of the intended message.


I take it as I see it. I've come to the point where I've realized its not worth it to get worked up over what people say on the internet.



Chris Parker said:


> None of this has anything to do with you and your situation as you have presented it… and is filled, as usual, with your assumptions that often fall down in the face of reality.


I was just explaining out how my dojo is run by the head instructor.

I would also like to point out that many people might find some of your posts to be offensive. As for me, like I said Im past the point of getting worked up over what somebody says on the internet, its simply not worth it, but other people will no doubt get offended by some of your posts.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Xue Sheng said:


> Yes..... but failing to take the test would be defined as "neglecting to do something". Failing the test would be defined as "being unsuccessful in achieving one's goal"


How about if there are certain prerequisites that must be met before you can take the test?


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tgace said:


> Maybe this has been addressed upthread, but Im too lazy to dig through it.
> 
> Are we talking about a school that makes EVERYONE take that long to advance? Is this some sort of money making scam to hold paying students for as long as possible?
> 
> Or are we discussing a single person (or two or three) who just cant pass promotional tests?


We're discussing the latter.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tgace said:


> Well...there can be some confusion between discussion, argument and lecturing around here sometimes.


True enough, especially when its done on message boards and not face to face.


----------



## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> How about if there are certain prerequisites that must be met before you can take the test?



Then that is "neglecting to do something"


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> No it took me close to ten years to figure out that I had to register for the test and take the test without being asked first.




That's what I said.


----------



## Geo

Hi guys sorry for this, teething problem. Please see my replies below. Thanks.


----------



## Geo

Zero said:


> Thanks Geo, sound words of wisdom here.
> 
> That said, personally, I am not suffering any hurt whatsoever (not on a spiritual level or otherwise), I don't see the need to "avoid" and don't even see this as a confrontation, more like an extended dialogue, primarily with PG.  PG himself/herself has stated, surprisingly (or not) as it may seem, that this (what you may call) soapbox diatribe is actually of some benefit to him/her.
> 
> peace



Hi Zero, first of all apologies if I have suggested that this forum is confronting.  Perhaps due to the nature of the discussion a late comer to the fora may be justified in believing that, nevertheless thanks for the clarification.

As you said PG's rants are diatribes, however it won't be diatribes if it misses its mark.  I'm sure you are well versed in the efficacy of strikes in our art which are rendered useless if it doesn't land. Perhaps PGs rants have hit its mark/s in someway and have exposed some of us (me included).



Zero said:


> As an aside,* I don't even know what you are referencing when you talk about philosophical aspects of our arts*. My art has no spiritual or philosophical side, it is about being a better fighter, and I tailor that myself to ring competition and separately for SD. If I am sitting cross legged on tatami in front of some incense, it's only to clear my mind better to comprehend some teachings or to prepare for a fight to come. The only times we get philosophical is about things like "man, you sure got hurt that time"..."yeah, people can get hurt when they fight, huh, imagine that".



Once again my apologies for the generalisation. I'm sure that whatever martial art you practice, you subscribe to a guiding principle that keeps you seeking higher skills in your chosen art. Our mental picture of martial arts philosophy is what _Master Po_ dished out to young _Kwai Chang_ or _Miyagi San_ to _Daniel_ they aren't too far off the mark. In my opinion there are two kinds of martial artists who who advocates preservation and another who brings destruction.  The Taijitu brings these two opposing forces together in harmony and balance, one cannot exist without the other.  Peace.


----------



## Geo

Chris Parker said:


> Believe me, there has been plenty of courtesy and self control… but, after going through the same thing many, many times over with the OP, it has been found that bluntness is the only way to communicate and get any form of response. Is it optimal? Maybe… or maybe not. However, nothing else has worked, or even come close to working.



Hi Master Chris

Thanks for that.  As far as dealing with OP or PG is concerned I didn't mean to be to prescriptive about it.  Mine was simply a suggestion however if the community sees it fit to adopt an stronger approach when communicating with OP or PG then by all means I won't stand it the way



Chris Parker said:


> I would also ask, though, what you are identifying as the "philosophical aspect of our art"? I mean… how would you know what such aspects of my arts are, for instance? Even then, would you not agree that finding the most effective way of dealing with a situation is within martial arts philosophy? Or that the idea of facing reality is part of it?
> 
> Can you see how the idea of pacifistic fantasy, we should all get along ideals are actually not much to do with actual martial arts, no matter how much people like to think they are?



I didn't mean to second guess the aspects of your chosen martial art.  I'm sure that whatever martial art you practice, you were taught, shown or even indoctrinated with a guiding principle that keeps you seeking higher skills in your chosen art including how to deal with any situation in real life.

I don't want to get to cliche'ed here for fear of being laughed out of the forum as I'm sure some of you are already snickering at my comments, that's alright though. I never suggested 'pacifism' but in practicing your art haven't you developed a thought system that dictates an attitude of rationality in face of any situation, whatever your course of action is?  To me that separates us from lower order beings whose instincts are primal not rational.



Chris Parker said:


> This is a discussion forum. Are you seriously suggesting that we don't engage in discussion?



No sir not at all.  However we can opt to keep it moving productively.



Geo said:


> Avoidance - staying away from people, places and things that can get you hurt or get you in trouble.



Master Chris with all due respect, allow me to quote the above once again.  Perhaps its the community where I live that gives rise to that and as a martial arts teacher I stand by that philosophy.  

You and I both know that in our environment here in Australia we don't so much fear for our lives, we don't so much live under a dark cloud that a person with a gun will suddenly shoot and kill others in a public place,  we don't so much fear that the person sitting beside us on the train or in the bus will stick a knife up us...YET!!!! 

That perhaps is why as a teacher I choose to concentrate on life skills through martial arts and combine that with the combative aspects harmoniously.

Thank you for time.  It's a nice day today good for fish and chips please have a great day.


----------



## Tez3

Geo said:


> Hi guys
> 
> After 273 replies this thread is going nowhere.  If anyone bothered to actually read the original post before posting a reply one would perhaps be more inclined with PG regarding the martial arts journey.  Does any one really object or disagree with martial arts being the journey and not so much the destination?
> 
> A lot of mud has been slung, a lot of integrity questioned, a lot characters shot down.  All these without a shred of hesitation, courtesy and self control.  As martial artists do we want to personify the resultant flaws that we endeavour to overcome through the practice of philosophical aspects of our art?  How we have behaved towards PG is nothing short of mobocracy (in my books).  If we teach martial arts is this a practice that we wish to impart to our students?
> 
> PG is standing in a soap box articulating issues that are very personal to him and perhaps in his view relevant to the martial arts community.  All of us in this forum have two options; one stop and debate PG or, two stop, listen (in this case look/read) and move on.  If members stop and debate PG he will stay on his soap box if we move on ..well.. the result is obvious.
> 
> And yes I read your last post.
> In my dojang I teach hosinsul (self defence) first rule I teach is to avoid situations which may compromise your person, in every sense of the word.  We don't get paid to break our faces and spirit like those poor souls at the UFC.  So if we believe that we may potentially be spiritually aggrieved by lingering in this thread do we really want to linger?
> 
> _Avoidance - staying away from people, places and things that can get you hurt or get you in trouble._
> 
> Have a great day everyone!




Whoa, hold your horses here, you are jumping to some pretty big conclusions here.
Most of us read the original post when it first went up, there has also been similar posts by the OP.
It sounds a fine thing coming on castigate people for what you think you have read but you are reading it wrong, no mud has been flung, characters haven't been shot down and I would seriously suggest you read as many of PG's threads and get to know his online character as we have before you start making accusations we are 'mobbing' him.
As for you UFC comment, really? is that how you respect other martial artists?
As for being 'spiritually aggrieved', I 've no idea what that means but I'm pretty sure it applies to no one here, far from it we persevere with PG because we do actually want his questions answered so that he can understand better, I assume you don't know why he has problems in this direction because unlike us you have just jumped in feet first , sized up the situation incorrectly and come up with the rubbish you have.
yes I read your last post.


----------



## Chris Parker

PhotonGuy said:


> I've been training in the martial arts for more than a score, most of the training has been done at my primary dojo but I've been to multiple other dojos and I've seen what their standards are. My dojo has very high standards for advancement compared to most of the other dojos I've been to. I've also been to many tournaments where many students from many other dojos compete. Students at my dojo tend to do very well against students of other dojos. Also, there are students who start out at other dojos and then transfer to my dojo and at my dojo they say that advancement is harder and that they get more out of training at my dojo than they did at their former dojos. So that is what I base my judgement of good skill on, how my dojo matches up to many of the other dojos that I've visited or attended or have seen performances of from their students.



Okay, so comparative observation. Cool. However, that's not quite what I was getting at… I was more wondering how you would be able to tell what "good skills" are if seen independent of contrast or comparative examples. What I mean is… if I was to show just a single clip, devoid of ranking or description, could you say if it was good or not? And how would you base such an observation?



PhotonGuy said:


> Than you need work. If you're not good enough that's where hard work comes in, so you can make yourself good enough.



You've missed the point. The simple reality is that some people, no matter how much they work, will never be at the skill level of "black belt" (depending on the organisation and system, of course). Sadly, it's not just a matter of "well, they have to work harder". If you don't have it, in some cases, you just don't have it.



PhotonGuy said:


> Well I have gone though change and growth from posting on these boards and from some of the responses. Whether or not you've seen it is a different story.



Okay. To be frank, no, it doesn't show.



PhotonGuy said:


> Well that's good. In this case I do agree with your methods. There is no reason why a student shouldn't be able to ask what they need to work on or if they can be assessed. And if they aren't assessed than they should know why they weren't given approval which as you just pointed out, you tell them why.



Which you've been told, repeatedly, over and over, by many, many posters here each time you've brought this up over the last 2 and a half years.



PhotonGuy said:


> Failure or not being ready isn't necessarily a bad thing, what's bad is if you don't know why you've failed or why you're not ready.



None of this is different to anything anyone has said. The fact that you see the need to state these things as if informing others is why it's hard to see any growth that you feel you've made.



PhotonGuy said:


> I take it as I see it. I've come to the point where I've realized its not worth it to get worked up over what people say on the internet.



Again, that's not the point. If you're taking people's comments "with a grain of salt", it means to apply a level of distrust and skepticism to what they're saying… I'm saying that that is exactly the opposite of what you should be doing. It's nothing to do with getting worked up over what they say… it's more a matter of recognising what they're actually saying, and why.



PhotonGuy said:


> I was just explaining out how my dojo is run by the head instructor.



Okay… but it's still irrelevant, and has nothing at all to do with your situation. You described the way your instructor handled someone who explicitly said they weren't interested in further ranking… so, unless you also made similar comments, it's got nothing to do with anything you've been talking about… and, if you did, then you've been presenting a very false image of the situation.



PhotonGuy said:


> I would also like to point out that many people might find some of your posts to be offensive. As for me, like I said Im past the point of getting worked up over what somebody says on the internet, its simply not worth it, but other people will no doubt get offended by some of your posts.



So… what are you saying here? People might be offended, but you aren't, but people might be, so….?

Look. Yeah, I speak bluntly. I'm more of a "tough love" kinda guy. And, frankly, nothing less than that has been close to getting through to you.



Geo said:


> Hi guys sorry for this, teething problem. Please see my replies below. Thanks.



Cool, thought as much.



Geo said:


> Hi Master Chris



Just Chris. Please.



Geo said:


> Thanks for that.  As far as dealing with OP or PG is concerned I didn't mean to be to prescriptive about it.  Mine was simply a suggestion however if the community sees it fit to adopt an stronger approach when communicating with OP or PG then by all means I won't stand it the way



Yeah, I got that. Which is why I was highlighting the history for you. While I may personally have a somewhat harsher (blunter) approach than others, everything is said with the intention of helping… and is structured based on interactions with the person I'm dealing with at the time.



Geo said:


> I didn't mean to second guess the aspects of your chosen martial art.  I'm sure that whatever martial art you practice, you were taught, shown or even indoctrinated with a guiding principle that keeps you seeking higher skills in your chosen art including how to deal with any situation in real life.



Yeah… look, the thing is that that really doesn't mean anything at all. I mean… yes, there are "guiding principles" to my arts… one of which is boiled down by someone else "walk up to the other guy and kill him"… another might be seen as "just hit them!"… another is based around subduing and controlling (in a rather different expression than BJJ, for the record)… so what influence should that have on my conduct?

My point is that the idea of "shouldn't martial artists behave better?" is a largely false, empty, and baseless ideal… it's an artificial addition which, when looked at honestly, contradicts much of martial teachings.



Geo said:


> I don't want to get to cliche'ed here for fear of being laughed out of the forum as I'm sure some of you are already snickering at my comments, that's alright though. I never suggested 'pacifism' but in practicing your art haven't you developed a thought system that dictates an attitude of rationality in face of any situation, whatever your course of action is?  To me that separates us from lower order beings whose instincts are primal not rational.



Rationality? No. And if they're a part of a martial system, then that's not a good sign… when dealing with violence, you're not dealing with rationality, so applying it is a rather bad idea… violence is incredibly primal. The idea of "separat(ing) us from lower order beings"… well… huh? 



Geo said:


> No sir not at all.  However we can opt to keep it moving productively.



Sure, but "productive" can change depending on the context…



Geo said:


> Master Chris with all due respect, allow me to quote the above once again.  Perhaps its the community where I live that gives rise to that and as a martial arts teacher I stand by that philosophy.



Well, that's not a philosophy, it's a tactic (plan of action)… and I don't have an issue with it as a first-line tactic for self defence… but I don't see any relevance to anything else said.



Geo said:


> You and I both know that in our environment here in Australia we don't so much fear for our lives, we don't so much live under a dark cloud that a person with a gun will suddenly shoot and kill others in a public place,  we don't so much fear that the person sitting beside us on the train or in the bus will stick a knife up us...YET!!!!



Okay… still not sure what this has to do with anything… 



Geo said:


> That perhaps is why as a teacher I choose to concentrate on life skills through martial arts and combine that with the combative aspects harmoniously.



As do I.



Geo said:


> Thank you for time.  It's a nice day today good for fish and chips please have a great day.



Okay.


----------



## Tez3

You get fish and chips in Oz? Still they won't be burnt as we have the Ashes........................................woowoo, sorry couldn't resist!!


----------



## PhotonGuy

Chris Parker said:


> Okay, so comparative observation. Cool. However, that's not quite what I was getting at… I was more wondering how you would be able to tell what "good skills" are if seen independent of contrast or comparative examples. What I mean is… if I was to show just a single clip, devoid of ranking or description, could you say if it was good or not? And how would you base such an observation?


If I was to see a single clip I could make my own judgements on whether or not I considered it good. And I would base that on how it matches up to all the numerous other demonstrations I've seen of martial arts performances both in my own dojo and many other dojos that I've visited. Even if I don't take classes at a dojo I sometimes will visit and observe the students perform, particularly the higher ranking students. I would also use my own knowledge and experience in the martial arts to determine if I thought the clip was good or not, how well the techniques were done, how good the form was, ect.



Chris Parker said:


> You've missed the point. The simple reality is that some people, no matter how much they work, will never be at the skill level of "black belt" (depending on the organisation and system, of course). Sadly, it's not just a matter of "well, they have to work harder". If you don't have it, in some cases, you just don't have it.


If somebody who wants to advance has been at a rank for longer than the usual length of time I see two reasons why they're not advancing, either they're not working hard enough or they're not doing it right. All the hard work in the world won't do you any good if you're not doing it right. You will only get better at doing it the wrong way.

So what you're saying is theres more to it than that, that some people just don't have the potential to reach certain ranks or levels and that no matter how hard they work or how much they try to do it right they will never go beyond their potential I take it?



Chris Parker said:


> Okay. To be frank, no, it doesn't show.


Just because you don't see it doesn't mean its not there. Then again, its practically impossible to know every little detail about somebody based on messages they post on a board.



Chris Parker said:


> Which you've been told, repeatedly, over and over, by many, many posters here each time you've brought this up over the last 2 and a half years.


Some posters but not all. Some people have said its disrespectful to ask such stuff and that you should just, as its said many times before, shut up and train. Shutting up is good when you actually are training but there are also proper times to ask questions, such as before and after class.



Chris Parker said:


> None of this is different to anything anyone has said. The fact that you see the need to state these things as if informing others is why it's hard to see any growth that you feel you've made.



To know why you failed you might have to talk to your sensei, including asking your sensei why you haven't been told you could test yet.

I would reply to the rest of the thread but my computer battery is running low and I am not at home where the charger is. When I charge up my computer I will finish.


----------



## Geo

Tez3 said:


> Whoa, hold your horses here, you are jumping to some pretty big conclusions here.
> Most of us read the original post when it first went up, there has also been similar posts by the OP.
> It sounds a fine thing coming on castigate people for what you think you have read but you are reading it wrong, no mud has been flung, characters haven't been shot down and I would seriously suggest you read as many of PG's threads and get to know his online character as we have before you start making accusations we are 'mobbing' him.
> As for you UFC comment, really? is that how you respect other martial artists?



Hi Tez

Fist of all, didn't mean to put anyone's knickers in a knot.  Apologies if I inadvertently pushed anyone's buttons, I am now beginning to realise that this issue is extremely vexing to you inasmuch as it is to PG/OP.  

Just for the avoidance of doubt I am not castigating anybody here.  I'd like to believe that all of us in this forum have mature outlooks and that we can co-exist with each others' differences unfortunately it appears that some of the community members would rather be exclusive.

It is my observation only and not meant to pontificate to any one about it.  If you are slighted by it then I'm sorry you feel that way.

I'm also sorry you feel that way about my UFC comment, leave it at that.  Once again for the avoidance of doubt I respect martial artists.  It's not a blanket though.




Tez3 said:


> As for being 'spiritually aggrieved', I 've no idea what that means but I'm pretty sure it applies to no one here, far from it we persevere with PG because we do actually want his questions answered so that he can understand better, I assume you don't know why he has problems in this direction because unlike us you have just jumped in feet first , sized up the situation incorrectly and come up with the rubbish you have.
> yes I read your last post.



As for my 'spiritually aggrieved' comment, you are a 'pommie' right as you avatar suggest, so I'm sure you are familiar with the saying " if the shoe fits?".

I don't need to read PG's other post.  Why? I do not wish to diagnose why he behaves as such. After all what we are seeing here is his/her online persona'.  All these can just be figments of his/her imaginations and it appears that a lot of you have heavily invested in it.  Whoever PG/OP is might be having the time of his or her life spinning this thread and watching how he plays the community.

Perhaps if the community wishes to invite relevant comments to discussion threads someone might consider moderating and contextualising the discussion.

By the way - I love fish and chips with malt vinegar and salt. Not a big fan of tartare sauce.

As for the Ashes - out of 322 games played since 1882 the score stands at:

Australia 129 won vs. England 104 won

Hey Tez have a great day.


----------



## Tez3

Geo said:


> Fist of all, didn't mean to put anyone's knickers in a knot. Apologies if I inadvertently pushed anyone's buttons, I am now beginning to realise that this issue is extremely vexing to you inasmuch as it is to PG/OP.



Ok, knickers aren't in a twist and I'm certainly not vexed. None of us are 'heavily invested' in what is going on here, I think you have misread it again. This is the internet, we are just a bunch of people who were asked a question by someone who didn't like the answer, we have lives and this is not even a few minutes out of this life.
Sorry the phrase spiritually aggrieved still doesn't mean anything unless it means you've lost your sense of humour along with the Ashes, England may have lost before but never in under two hours!


----------



## Xue Sheng

If I Do, I Get a Whippin, "I Dood It!

should probably just smile and walk away but I am a bit perplexed by the application of "Spiritually Aggrieved" (Please forgive the confusion but I'm a silly Yank afterall)

Spiritually aggrieved!?....by a thread on a web page......

*spiritually*

adj.
1.  Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not material; supernatural: spiritual power.

2.  Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul: spiritual guidance; spiritual growth.

3.  Not concerned with material or worldly things: led a spiritual life.

4.  Of or belonging to a religion; sacred: spiritual practices; spiritual music.

*aggrieved* 

adjective  

1. wronged, offended, or injured: 

2. Law. deprived of legal rights or claims. 

3. troubled; worried; disturbed; unhappy.


----------



## Tez3

Xue Sheng said:


> Spiritually aggrieved!?....by a thread on a web page......



That's what I was thinking. I don't think I've ever been 'spiritually aggrieved' unless it happened in my sleep without me knowing, you know like that meme that says spiders rub their willies across your face when you are sleeping  
As for thinking we are vexed lol, the poster doesn't know us very well otherwise he'd know how often we spill coffee on our keyboards laughing as we type!


----------



## Geo

Xue Sheng said:


> should probably just smile and walk away but I am a bit perplexed by the application of "Spiritually Aggrieved" (Please forgive the confusion but I'm a silly Yank afterall)
> 
> Spiritually aggrieved!?....by a thread on a web page......



Hi Xue Sheng

One may be excused for posting a reply without the benefit of "context". I have been told by a few members here that I have committed such in offering a comment regarding the current debate.  Allow me to offer to you my original post:



Geo said:


> So if we believe that we may potentially be spiritually aggrieved by lingering in this thread do we really want to linger?



As you can see my post was not prescriptive rather an invitation for everyone to appraise the value of the current discussion and to decide whether they wish to linger or not.  It's good that you can illuminate the denotations of 'spiritual' and 'aggrieved' after all its is important to go back to the base meaning of things.  Be that as it may words have connotations (as you know):

*connotation*
[kon-uh-tey-shuh n] 
noun

the associated or secondary meaning of a word or expression inaddition to its explicit or primary meaning: A possible connotation of“home” is “a place of warmth, comfort, and affection.”.
the act of connoting; the suggesting of an additional meaning for aword or expression, apart from its explicit meaning.
2. something suggested or implied by a word or thing, rather than being explicitly named or described:
3. Logic. the set of attributes constituting the meaning of a term and thus determining the range of objects to which that term may be applied;comprehension; intention.

As Tez put  it eloquently:



Tez3 said:


> Sorry the phrase spiritually aggrieved still doesn't mean anything unless it means you've lost your sense of humour



Her's is a seeming loss of humour in the situation.  Which is palpable in the tone of the replies of some and perhaps of mine.  

Peace!


----------



## Geo

Tez3 said:


> That's what I was thinking. I don't think I've ever been 'spiritually aggrieved' unless it happened in my sleep without me knowing, you know like that meme that says spiders rub their willies across your face when you are sleeping
> As for thinking we are vexed lol, the poster doesn't know us very well otherwise he'd know how often we spill coffee on our keyboards laughing as we type!



Tez

Thanks for that and my apologies.  I'll never know the real value of this forum to you, but one thing I notice though you seem to spend a lot of time in it (as do I).  You probably have forged alliances here through the years who will back you up.  After all 16 messages pales to insignificance compared to 19,203 and 22'343 messages.



Tez3 said:


> England may have lost before but never in under two hours!



Cheeky! Very Cheeky!!  On another note the Wallabies just lost the Bledisloe Cup...again to the All Blacks!  We are going down the gurgler!

Just one final word on spiritual aggrievement.  If I offended I apologise, If I entertained due to the ludicrousness of my post then I'm glad.  I'm moving on!


----------



## Xue Sheng

Geo said:


> Hi Xue Sheng
> 
> One may be excused for posting a reply without the benefit of "context". I have been told by a few members here that I have committed such in offering a comment regarding the current debate.  Allow me to offer to you my original post:
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see my post was not prescriptive rather an invitation for everyone to appraise the value of the current discussion and to decide whether they wish to linger or not.  It's good that you can illuminate the denotations of 'spiritual' and 'aggrieved' after all its is important to go back to the base meaning of things.  Be that as it may words have connotations (as you know):
> 
> *connotation*
> [kon-uh-tey-shuh n]
> noun
> 
> the associated or secondary meaning of a word or expression inaddition to its explicit or primary meaning: A possible connotation of“home” is “a place of warmth, comfort, and affection.”.
> the act of connoting; the suggesting of an additional meaning for aword or expression, apart from its explicit meaning.
> 2. something suggested or implied by a word or thing, rather than being explicitly named or described:
> 3. Logic. the set of attributes constituting the meaning of a term and thus determining the range of objects to which that term may be applied;comprehension; intention.
> 
> As Tez put  it eloquently:
> 
> 
> 
> Her's is a seeming loss of humour in the situation.  Which is palpable in the tone of the replies of some and perhaps of mine.
> 
> Peace!



Yup, I read your post. But your posts now begs the question, what did you mean with you posted "spiritually aggrieved".... To me, words have meaning, and if those meanings are not followed, and there is some other meaning applied by the user of those words, then they need to be explained. Because by using alternate or personal definition you then enter into the realm of Semantics (as you know)

*semantics *(in Linguistics.)


the study of meaning.
the study of linguistic development by classifying and examining changes in meaning and form.


----------



## Geo

Xue Sheng said:


> Yup, I read your post. But your posts now begs the question, what did you mean with you posted "spiritually aggrieved".... To me, words have meaning, and if those meanings are not followed, and there is some other meaning applied by the user of those words, then they need to be explained. Because by using alternate or personal definition you then enter into the realm of Semantics (as you know)



Hi Xue

Yep semantics, agree with your quandary.  I'm beginning to realise that I should have picked the tone and level of the language I used in my posts, my apologies.

You are one the few that directly asked my meaning, thanks.  As for 'spiritually aggrieved'  please allow me to use an Aussie' slang in the spirit (oops there it is again) of being less formal about the whole thing..so if I was to transcribe 'spiritual  aggrievance' I'd say one has 'spat the dummy', although TEZ might claim the origin of that phrase that we colonials 'pinched'.

I'll try not to be too dramatic next time, I hope we had a laugh about it.


----------



## Tez3

Geo said:


> Thanks for that and my apologies. I'll never know the real value of this forum to you, but one thing I notice though you seem to spend a lot of time in it (as do I).



There is value here and I suppose I do spend a while on here, it's my bribe for doing the housework lol. I hate housework and when the children grew up and moved out I though I'd have less but for some reason now both my husband and I are retired ( him through ill health so we don't get out as much as we used to) it seems there's even more of it! so it's do this pile of ironing and I will have a look at MT etc. I came across this place years ago when I was bedridden, so I guess I have got virtual friends here.  Hopefully another in you.
Oh and we have the rugby world cup coming up!


----------



## PhotonGuy

Chris Parker said:


> Again, that's not the point. If you're taking people's comments "with a grain of salt", it means to apply a level of distrust and skepticism to what they're saying… I'm saying that that is exactly the opposite of what you should be doing. It's nothing to do with getting worked up over what they say… it's more a matter of recognising what they're actually saying, and why.


Well put it this way, I don't take it personally about what people say on the board. After all they don't know me from Adam and I don't know them from Adam so it would be silly to take what they say personally.



Chris Parker said:


> Okay… but it's still irrelevant, and has nothing at all to do with your situation. You described the way your instructor handled someone who explicitly said they weren't interested in further ranking… so, unless you also made similar comments, it's got nothing to do with anything you've been talking about… and, if you did, then you've been presenting a very false image of the situation.


This is just an observation but you sure appear to prefer a very structured conversation, at least on the boards you do.



Chris Parker said:


> So… what are you saying here? People might be offended, but you aren't, but people might be, so….?
> 
> Look. Yeah, I speak bluntly. I'm more of a "tough love" kinda guy. And, frankly, nothing less than that has been close to getting through to you.


Well you sure are very critical.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> ↑
> No it took me close to ten years to figure out that I had to register for the test and take the test without being asked first.
> 
> That's what I said.



Well lets face it, its absurd to take close to ten years to go up just one rank, isn't it?


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> My point is, there are a myriad of opportunities to obtain this information WITHOUT asking the instructor.


As a child you no doubt had experience playing the game "Telephone." Its a game you sometimes play at school, at camp, at church, ect. where you form a circle with a group of people and somebody starts with a message and they whisper it to the person next to them, and then they whisper it to the person next to them and so forth until it goes all the way around the circle. Usually by the time it goes all the way around its quite different. Indeed it would usually be gibberish by then. So that just goes to show you that when a message or any type of information goes through multiple people it can often get changed and messed up. For that reason its always best to go through as few people as possible when giving or receiving a message. Ideally it shouldn't go through any extra person it should go straight from the source to the person getting it and that includes asking your instructor about information regarding advancement or anything else about the martial arts. Its always best to get the information directly from the head instructor, or if you get it from somebody else to confirm it with the head instructor.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> As a child you no doubt had experience playing the game "Telephone." Its a game you sometimes play at school, at camp, at church, ect. where you form a circle with a group of people and somebody starts with a message and they whisper it to the person next to them, and then they whisper it to the person next to them and so forth until it goes all the way around the circle. Usually by the time it goes all the way around its quite different. Indeed it would usually be gibberish by then. So that just goes to show you that when a message or any type of information goes through multiple people it can often get changed and messed up. For that reason its always best to go through as few people as possible when giving or receiving a message. Ideally it shouldn't go through any extra person it should go straight from the source to the person getting it and that includes asking your instructor about information regarding advancement or anything else about the martial arts. Its always best to get the information directly from the head instructor, or if you get it from somebody else to confirm it with the head instructor.




'Chinese whispers' it's know as, we play it with the brownies then teach then, it's part of a badge, to carry a message properly. The Brownies are age 7-10, they know the difference and how to find out information, _they do it all the time_ at school, Brownies, home etc. Adults tend not to have to be told.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> As a child you no doubt had experience playing the game "Telephone." Its a game you sometimes play at school, at camp, at church, ect. where you form a circle with a group of people and somebody starts with a message and they whisper it to the person next to them, and then they whisper it to the person next to them and so forth until it goes all the way around the circle. Usually by the time it goes all the way around its quite different. Indeed it would usually be gibberish by then. So that just goes to show you that when a message or any type of information goes through multiple people it can often get changed and messed up. For that reason its always best to go through as few people as possible when giving or receiving a message. Ideally it shouldn't go through any extra person it should go straight from the source to the person getting it and that includes asking your instructor about information regarding advancement or anything else about the martial arts. Its always best to get the information directly from the head instructor, or if you get it from somebody else to confirm it with the head instructor.


Not the point. The point is yes, you can get the information directly, but in ten years you would think that you might have been able to pick up the correct information from somewhere else if you had actually socially engaged with other club member on any real level during that time. Martial arts clubs tend not to be that big, and tend to be like a family, so if people there like you, they tend to want to help you...the information would normally come to you rather than you going to it...


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> Not the point. The point is yes, you can get the information directly, but in ten years you would think that you might have been able to pick up the correct information from somewhere else if you had actually socially engaged with other club member on any real level during that time. Martial arts clubs tend not to be that big, and tend to be like a family, so if people there like you, they tend to want to help you...the information would normally come to you rather than you going to it...



Yes I did engage with many of the other club members but most of them also had the mistaken impression that you had to be told by the head instructor before you could test. As you said the clubs don't happen to be that big and mine is not small but its not overly large either. But, with a club that's not all that big and that's like a family that's all the more reason that there shouldn't be a problem talking to the head instructor and asking him stuff you're not clear about.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes I did engage with many of the other club members but most of them also had the mistaken impression that you had to be told by the head instructor before you could test. As you said the clubs don't happen to be that big and mine is not small but its not overly large either. But, with a club that's not all that big and that's like a family that's all the more reason that there shouldn't be a problem talking to the head instructor and asking him stuff you're not clear about.


Not the point. The point is how, in ten years, could you NOT have found this out?


----------



## Blindside

PG, how many people passed you from brown to black during this 10 years?


----------



## Chris Parker

PhotonGuy said:


> If I was to see a single clip I could make my own judgements on whether or not I considered it good. And I would base that on how it matches up to all the numerous other demonstrations I've seen of martial arts performances both in my own dojo and many other dojos that I've visited. Even if I don't take classes at a dojo I sometimes will visit and observe the students perform, particularly the higher ranking students. I would also use my own knowledge and experience in the martial arts to determine if I thought the clip was good or not, how well the techniques were done, how good the form was, ect.



Okay, let's try this another way… in the following clip, is it good, bad, or something else? And why?






We may then try with other clips.

I want to point out, though, that I'm not trying to "out" you… I'm trying to get a gauge on your perspective. So don't worry about how you'll be seen for your honest assessment.



PhotonGuy said:


> If somebody who wants to advance has been at a rank for longer than the usual length of time I see two reasons why they're not advancing, either they're not working hard enough or they're not doing it right. All the hard work in the world won't do you any good if you're not doing it right. You will only get better at doing it the wrong way.



Again, though, there is the third reason that, frankly, they're not good enough (skilled enough, insightful enough, whatever) to move up in rank. You can have people put in all the effort in the world, but some levels of skill are just beyond some people… and, much though a "feel good" ideology might dislike that, it's just reality.



PhotonGuy said:


> So what you're saying is theres more to it than that, that some people just don't have the potential to reach certain ranks or levels and that no matter how hard they work or how much they try to do it right they will never go beyond their potential I take it?



Yep.



PhotonGuy said:


> Just because you don't see it doesn't mean its not there. Then again, its practically impossible to know every little detail about somebody based on messages they post on a board.



No, but it is possible to see a lot more than you think you're showing… 



PhotonGuy said:


> Some posters but not all. Some people have said its disrespectful to ask such stuff and that you should just, as its said many times before, shut up and train. Shutting up is good when you actually are training but there are also proper times to ask questions, such as before and after class.



And you've misunderstood each and every time it's been said. The idea of "shut up and train" is that that's where you find your answers… it's in line with your idea that, if you work hard enough, you'll get there. The "shut up and train" meme is in response to people who would tend to talk about training, then complain that they're not getting anywhere, rather than actually put aside their own thoughts and put in the work.

Yes, there are times to ask… and there are different ways to ask. But the main thrust has been that, if you're not getting where you need to be, and are going on and on about it, perhaps you're not putting the effort in where you should, and are instead wasting time intellectualising what should be discovered with sweat.



PhotonGuy said:


> To know why you failed you might have to talk to your sensei, including asking your sensei why you haven't been told you could test yet.



If that's the way it's done in that particular school, maybe. But, honestly, this is a hypothetical based in your (likely) misunderstanding of the running of your own school, and is not the reality for many at all.



PhotonGuy said:


> Well put it this way, I don't take it personally about what people say on the board. After all they don't know me from Adam and I don't know them from Adam so it would be silly to take what they say personally.



It's not about taking it personally, it's about hearing what's being said in the first place. And "taking with a grain of salt" is nothing to do with "taking it personally" either… you're mixing your metaphors.



PhotonGuy said:


> This is just an observation but you sure appear to prefer a very structured conversation, at least on the boards you do.



I prefer things to be relevant to the discussion, yeah. Sorry if logic and basic conversation structure eludes you.



PhotonGuy said:


> Well you sure are very critical.



I'm old and grumpy, is what I am. I've been at this too long to be anything but.



PhotonGuy said:


> Well lets face it, its absurd to take close to ten years to go up just one rank, isn't it?



Depends on the rank, and the person, really.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> PHOTONGUY SAID: ↑
> Yes I did engage with many of the other club members but most of them also had the mistaken impression that you had to be told by the head instructor before you could test. As you said the clubs don't happen to be that big and mine is not small but its not overly large either. But, with a club that's not all that big and that's like a family that's all the more reason that there shouldn't be a problem talking to the head instructor and asking him stuff you're not clear about.
> 
> Not the point. The point is how, in ten years, could you NOT have found this out?



Because I didn't ask the head instructor.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Blindside said:


> PG, how many people passed you from brown to black during this 10 years?



A few.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> Because I didn't ask the head instructor.


Do you actually properly read what anyone here posts?


----------



## PhotonGuy

Chris Parker said:


> Okay, let's try this another way… in the following clip, is it good, bad, or something else? And why?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The clip is titled as a Shotokan self defense clip however he is also incorporating some Judo throws into it. Overall I must say he looks like he's really good, his technique is clean, crisp, and precise although he could put more hip into his techniques. What I've been taught is to really put your hip into it when you throw a technique. Also, at one point he swings his leg way up, I don't see why he would do that.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, though, there is the third reason that, frankly, they're not good enough (skilled enough, insightful enough, whatever) to move up in rank. You can have people put in all the effort in the world, but some levels of skill are just beyond some people… and, much though a "feel good" ideology might dislike that, it's just reality.
> 
> 
> 
> So lets say somebody who will never be good enough for black belt because they just don't have the potential, would they even make it to brown?
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, but it is possible to see a lot more than you think you're showing…
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What you can see about somebody from messages they post on a board is very limited.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> And you've misunderstood each and every time it's been said. The idea of "shut up and train" is that that's where you find your answers… it's in line with your idea that, if you work hard enough, you'll get there. The "shut up and train" meme is in response to people who would tend to talk about training, then complain that they're not getting anywhere, rather than actually put aside their own thoughts and put in the work.
> 
> Yes, there are times to ask… and there are different ways to ask. But the main thrust has been that, if you're not getting where you need to be, and are going on and on about it, perhaps you're not putting the effort in where you should, and are instead wasting time intellectualising what should be discovered with sweat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly, it does take hard work and effort to get anywhere but as you said the effort has to be put where it should be put otherwise its just wasted effort and sometimes you might have to ask, at the right time. You wouldn't want to ask in the middle of class but before or after class could be a good time.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> If that's the way it's done in that particular school, maybe. But, honestly, this is a hypothetical based in your (likely) misunderstanding of the running of your own school, and is not the reality for many at all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> At any school you will have to know how its run, and if you're not clear on how its run it would make sense to ask.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm old and grumpy, is what I am. I've been at this too long to be anything but.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And thats all the more reason I believe its very important to get things done in a timely manner. Old age, happens to the best of us. Therefore I believe in doing and achieving as much as you can as soon as you can so that way by the time you do get old you will have much to look back on and say that you really did have a good youth. Otherwise life will pass you by and you will be old and grumpy and not pleased with yourself, or with life.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on the rank, and the person, really.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well for some of the really high dan ranks it might take ten years or more to move up in rank, although in most styles for that we're talking above fifth dan. As for the person, yes there are some people who will get to a certain rank and stay there and not care to advance any further. At my dojo there is this guy who is at low brown, the lowest of the three levels of brown belt and he has been there for many years and he has said that he doesn't care to advance any further. He just wants to keep coming to class and working on his training and technique but he doesn't care for any further rank advancement. However, for somebody who wants to go up in rank, for them to take ten years to go up any one rank up to and including first degree black belt, for them to take ten years I think is absurd.
Click to expand...


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> Do you actually properly read what anyone here posts?



Yes you said that I should've found out from the other students and not have had to talk to the head instructor. And I said many of the other students also had the same misconception I had. You seem to be opposed to talking to the head instructor. Why is that? The head instructor is a human being like anybody else and as you've pointed out lots of dojos are not overly large and are like families in which case talking to the head instructor should be all the easier.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> The head instructor is a human being like anybody else and as you've pointed out lots of dojos are not overly large and are like families in which case talking to the head instructor should be all the easier.



then why didn't you ask him?


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes you said that I should've found out from the other students and not have had to talk to the head instructor. And I said many of the other students also had the same misconception I had. You seem to be opposed to talking to the head instructor. Why is that? The head instructor is a human being like anybody else and as you've pointed out lots of dojos are not overly large and are like families in which case talking to the head instructor should be all the easier.


Oh dear lord get the point. 

I am not opposed to talking to the head instructor at all. I am saying that even if for some reason, like you, one didn't, that the information would be available via other means.

I am not buying that the other people in that group thought the same incorrect thing over a ten year period, sorry. That's just not how a social circle works. If any other people graded in the time you were at the dojo, that puts paid to your theory of them not knowing. 

I think what really happened (based on your other posts on this forum about avoiding social contact and awkward avoidance of hand shaking) is that you never engaged with the other people at class socially. I think you turned up to train and then left after training without engaging anyone socially. In fact, I think you actively tried to avoid social engagement. I am fairly sure you stated as much in one of your earliest posts on the forum. 

For that reason, I think you were never in a position to be a privy to what information others in the class knew about testing. If others felt no connection to you, you were unlikely to be well-liked enough that the information would come to you. It is also likely that any instructor would observe such in-out behaviour and take it into account when considering how ready someone is for promotion (or not ready). 

Sorry if this seems direct, but this is the impression I have of your behaviour over the last year or two of these posts where you just seem to not understand how interactions with other people work in reality.


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes I did engage with many of the other club members but most of them also had the mistaken impression that you had to be told by the head instructor before you could test. As you said the clubs don't happen to be that big and mine is not small but its not overly large either. But, with a club that's not all that big and that's like a family that's all the more reason that there shouldn't be a problem talking to the head instructor and asking him stuff you're not clear about.


Hang on!!  Now you're saying "_*most of them*_", ie your other classmates, also were under the same misimpression?  I thought when you clarified for T-Grace, it was just yourself and maybe one or two others (and to be frank, I assumed those other two were probably much newer to the school and would have found out the pre-registering requirements promptly in any event!). 

So now, it was not just you but a whole heap of the sensei's students, how many others had the perseverance (if that is even the right word in this context!?!) to also train for another ten years before bb????


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> A few.


Uh oh!...

Is it just me or is this becoming like Ground Hog Day - but only the opposite, where we re-live the same thing again and again but instead of getting better, things just keep going from bad to worse...??


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes you said that I should've found out from the other students and not have had to talk to the head instructor. And I said many of the other students also had the same misconception I had. You seem to be opposed to talking to the head instructor. Why is that? The head instructor is a human being like anybody else and as you've pointed out lots of dojos are not overly large and are like families in which case talking to the head instructor should be all the easier.



How many others were so silly as to wait ten YEARS before asking?


----------



## Tez3

Dirty Dog said:


> How many others were so silly as to wait ten YEARS before asking?



Perhaps they are still waiting..........


----------



## PhotonGuy

Zero said:


> Uh oh!...
> 
> Is it just me or is this becoming like Ground Hog Day - but only the opposite, where we re-live the same thing again and again but instead of getting better, things just keep going from bad to worse...??



Somebody asked a question and I gave a straight answer, how is that going from bad to worse?


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> How many others were so silly as to wait ten YEARS before asking?



You can call it silly but there've been people here who've said its disrespectful to ask. So if you don't ask its silly, if you do ask its disrespectful, a catch 22.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> then why didn't you ask him?



Because I had the impression, which now looking back I regret, that its disrespectful to ask. As I said I regret having that impression but there've been other people on this board who have said its disrespectful to ask.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Because I had the impression, which now looking back I regret, that its disrespectful to ask. As I said I regret having that impression but there've been other people on this board who have said its disrespectful to ask.




It actually doesn't matter in the least what people think here, no not even me lol, what is important is what you think, and frankly even if it were disrespectful to ask you could have done it anyway. What would you have lost by asking? There's other places to train, other instructors, a bit of polite 'disrespect' might have gone a long way to getting your belt. You know what else people say? "if you don't ask you don't get."


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> You can call it silly but there've been people here who've said its disrespectful to ask. So if you don't ask its silly, if you do ask its disrespectful, a catch 22.



As usual, you didn't answer the question. I'm going to assume (as will others, I suspect) that the reason you didn't answer is because other students were not silly enough to wait ten years. 

And you know what that says about you. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> Somebody asked a question and I gave a straight answer, how is that going from bad to worse?


But it seems like you keep giving different straight answers to the same question. 

I was under the impression from your earlier posts it was just yourself or maybe one or two others that didn't realise the need to register/file forms.  Now you are saying it's "a few".  And that does not seem to add up - how could a few, ie quite a number of the class, not realise this requirement and continue spinning wheels not grading up (while seeing others that had filled in forms grading past them) and not asking someone - anyone! - something about this?


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> Oh dear lord get the point.
> 
> I am not opposed to talking to the head instructor at all. I am saying that even if for some reason, like you, one didn't, that the information would be available via other means.
> 
> I am not buying that the other people in that group thought the same incorrect thing over a ten year period, sorry. That's just not how a social circle works. If any other people graded in the time you were at the dojo, that puts paid to your theory of them not knowing.
> 
> I think what really happened (based on your other posts on this forum about avoiding social contact and awkward avoidance of hand shaking) is that you never engaged with the other people at class socially. I think you turned up to train and then left after training without engaging anyone socially. In fact, I think you actively tried to avoid social engagement. I am fairly sure you stated as much in one of your earliest posts on the forum.
> 
> For that reason, I think you were never in a position to be a privy to what information others in the class knew about testing. If others felt no connection to you, you were unlikely to be well-liked enough that the information would come to you. It is also likely that any instructor would observe such in-out behaviour and take it into account when considering how ready someone is for promotion (or not ready).
> 
> Sorry if this seems direct, but this is the impression I have of your behaviour over the last year or two of these posts where you just seem to not understand how interactions with other people work in reality.



You can buy or not buy whatever you want but the fact of the matter is lots of students had the false impression that, unlike with other belt tests you had to be told by the head instructor before you could take the black belt test. The fact of the matter is my dojo has a turnover rate where most students stay for a few years at the most and most students don't make it to brown belt let alone black belt. Maybe you're right that I don't properly understand how interactions with other people work but looking back I say my mistake was not talking to the head instructor about it.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> It actually doesn't matter in the least what people think here, no not even me lol, what is important is what you think, and frankly even if it were disrespectful to ask you could have done it anyway. What would you have lost by asking? There's other places to train, other instructors, a bit of polite 'disrespect' might have gone a long way to getting your belt. You know what else people say? "if you don't ask you don't get."



You're absolutely right and what you've said is what I've been trying to say all along. Im going to be blunt, the reason I didn't ask the head instructor is because I was scared. I was scared to ask the head instructor.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Zero said:


> But it seems like you keep giving different straight answers to the same question.
> 
> I was under the impression from your earlier posts it was just yourself or maybe one or two others that didn't realise the need to register/file forms.  Now you are saying it's "a few".  And that does not seem to add up - how could a few, ie quite a number of the class, not realise this requirement and continue spinning wheels not grading up (while seeing others that had filled in forms grading past them) and not asking someone - anyone! - something about this?



No, when I said "a few" it was because somebody asked me how many people passed me in rank and got a black belt while I was still waiting and I told them, "a few," by that, I mean two or three people. That was the first time somebody asked me such a question.


----------



## geezer

PhotonGuy... please bring me up to date. I'm sure you've probably already answered this several times along the line, but if so I missed it. Anyway, where are you NOW in your training? Are you in the same system and did you finally test and earn your black belt? ...or even higher rank? And also, as the title of this very long thread is about the journey, not the destination, why are you still carrying on about the rank (destination) if you are still training and enjoying the journey???

Heck, I haven't been promoted in rank since 1987. Well, I did stop training for about 15 years, from about 1992 to 2007. But I've been back at it since the summer of 2007 ...that's _8 more years_, and teaching again for the last 6 years or so as well. It would be great to get at least one more promotion before I retire some day. I'd really like that. But if it doesn't happen...well I'm enjoying the journey. _How about you?_


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> You can buy or not buy whatever you want but the fact of the matter is lots of students had the false impression that, unlike with other belt tests you had to be told by the head instructor before you could take the black belt test. The fact of the matter is my dojo has a turnover rate where most students stay for a few years at the most and most students don't make it to brown belt let alone black belt. Maybe you're right that I don't properly understand how interactions with other people work but looking back I say my mistake was not talking to the head instructor about it.



And yet a number of people graded to first dan during that period, and somehow you were not in a position for one of them to say to you in passing, 'oh yeah, I had to apply'.

I don't see why this is still an issue for you anyway. The world has moved on.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> You're absolutely right and what you've said is what I've been trying to say all along. Im going to be blunt, the reason I didn't ask the head instructor is because I was scared. I was scared to ask the head instructor.



Ah I see and I'm very sorry, that's not a nice situation to be in. It's not pleasant admitting that either so well done you for getting it off your chest. what you need to do now is also get it off your mind, it's done, you've learnt from it and can move on, don't dwell on it anymore, move onwards and upwards.

Perhaps an end to this thread would be a good start, move on to something that's current for you.


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> No, when I said "a few" it was because somebody asked me how many people passed me in rank and got a black belt while I was still waiting and I told them, "a few," by that, I mean two or three people. That was the first time somebody asked me such a question.


Sorry, I got context wrong, I thought it was a few in the same boat as you.  Now I understand it was a few that went past you.  Thanks.


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> You're absolutely right and what you've said is what I've been trying to say all along. I'm going to be blunt, the reason I didn't ask the head instructor is because I was scared. I was scared to ask the head instructor.


PG!  This revealing answer is much appreciated and probably now explains to many of us the true driver of what was going on (or a large part of it).  I hope you have or are able to build up confidence in asking others, like your sensei, these kind of questions and wish you luck in dealing with your fears or uncertainties.  Maybe if you have not already moved on, the fact you have now admitted you were scared to Tez (even if just on an online forum) might be a start.

Members on this site can get a bit exasperated or appear curt or grumpy at times (well, at least I can), when they see someone repeatedly going on about something that just doesn't make sense or does not add up - but most of the apples here are a good bunch and many with a heck of a lot of experience to draw on - although tis is of course primarily a martial arts, etc site.

Peace!


----------



## Tez3

I think it's time to draw this to a close now we've had a very good post from PG about the position he was in at the time, it's obviously left it's mark on him and I'm sorry for that. The time has come to move on I think to more positive things, I can't close this thread nor stop people posting but can ask politely please can we draw a line under this thread and move one.

*To PG*, I hope you don't feel this was dragged out of you, and I hope that martial arts and training has been a more positive experience since, it's time now to leave it in the past, to stand up and say that _this will not define who I am._ Leave this thread now and start having a look at some positive points of your training, look forwards instead of backwards. You have my best wishes.


----------



## Chris Parker

While I agree that this thread (and, hopefully, this entire line of conversation from many past threads) has likely gone about as far as it could, there are one or two things I'd like to address and clarify.



PhotonGuy said:


> The clip is titled as a Shotokan self defense clip however he is also incorporating some Judo throws into it. Overall I must say he looks like he's really good, his technique is clean, crisp, and precise although he could put more hip into his techniques. What I've been taught is to really put your hip into it when you throw a technique. Also, at one point he swings his leg way up, I don't see why he would do that.



Okay. thanks for that.

To be honest, this appraisal kinda confirms what I've thought in a number of ways here. It's not important to continue along this line, but thank you for answering.



PhotonGuy said:


> So lets say somebody who will never be good enough for black belt because they just don't have the potential, would they even make it to brown?



Sure, they might. Put it this way… just because someone isn't skilled enough to become a tennis pro, it doesn't mean they can't have a good amateur career. It's not a matter of anyone walking in the dojo being automatically good enough to get a black belt… as that's simply not the reality. But, by the same token, those unable to get a black belt don't stay as a white belt forever either.



PhotonGuy said:


> What you can see about somebody from messages they post on a board is very limited.



Honestly, you'd be surprised.



PhotonGuy said:


> Exactly, it does take hard work and effort to get anywhere but as you said the effort has to be put where it should be put otherwise its just wasted effort and sometimes you might have to ask, at the right time. You wouldn't want to ask in the middle of class but before or after class could be a good time.



You've missed the point again.



PhotonGuy said:


> At any school you will have to know how its run, and if you're not clear on how its run it would make sense to ask.



Yes, and no-one has said any different.



PhotonGuy said:


> And thats all the more reason I believe its very important to get things done in a timely manner. Old age, happens to the best of us. Therefore I believe in doing and achieving as much as you can as soon as you can so that way by the time you do get old you will have much to look back on and say that you really did have a good youth. Otherwise life will pass you by and you will be old and grumpy and not pleased with yourself, or with life.



Yeah… you missed the tone there completely.



PhotonGuy said:


> Well for some of the really high dan ranks it might take ten years or more to move up in rank, although in most styles for that we're talking above fifth dan. As for the person, yes there are some people who will get to a certain rank and stay there and not care to advance any further. At my dojo there is this guy who is at low brown, the lowest of the three levels of brown belt and he has been there for many years and he has said that he doesn't care to advance any further. He just wants to keep coming to class and working on his training and technique but he doesn't care for any further rank advancement. However, for somebody who wants to go up in rank, for them to take ten years to go up any one rank up to and including first degree black belt, for them to take ten years I think is absurd.



It may be absurd to you, but, well, that's exactly what happened.

And here's possibly the most important thing from all of these threads… saying it's "absurd", or "shouldn't happen", or anything else that implies that you have any real say in how reality occurs, is just deluding yourself. You feel it's absurd… okay. But it happened. It's reality. There could have been any number of reasons that you weren't approached to ask why you hadn't asked to be assessed… honestly, if your instructor thought you were ready, he would have told you. The fact that he didn't (whether you asked or not) says a lot. And, to that end, whether or not you feel it was right, absurd, silly, or anything else, doesn't matter. It happened. It's reality.



PhotonGuy said:


> You can call it silly but there've been people here who've said its disrespectful to ask. So if you don't ask its silly, if you do ask its disrespectful, a catch 22.



That's not really what they said, though… it's how you interpreted it.



PhotonGuy said:


> Because I had the impression, which now looking back I regret, that its disrespectful to ask. As I said I regret having that impression but there've been other people on this board who have said its disrespectful to ask.



You missed what was being said. No-one thinks it's disrespectful to ask an instructor questions… or to ask what's required to grade or be assessed… the disrespect is shown when you ask to be graded off your own back. In that case, it's implying that you are a better judge of your rank and abilities than your instructor… but if you're just asking what you need to do, or show, to be assessed, that's not been claimed to be disrespectful by anyone.



PhotonGuy said:


> You're absolutely right and what you've said is what I've been trying to say all along. Im going to be blunt, the reason I didn't ask the head instructor is because I was scared. I was scared to ask the head instructor.



Okay, good! Thank you for this… it's one of the first times you've actually given some insight into your own reasons that you continued on in this manner for so long. Of course, the question then is what were you afraid of… but it might not be necessary to delve too deep into that publicly here.


----------



## geezer

_PG_, you never got back and answered my question in post #338, which was  did you ever finally get your black belt, and are you currently training in the martial arts? 

I ask because like _Tez_ in post #343 above, I believe you have spent more than enough time rehashing the past for whatever lessons may be learned, and I sincerely encourage you to move on and look forward to the journey ahead.


----------



## geezer

....it would seem that PhotonGuy has left the building.


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## PhotonGuy

geezer said:


> PhotonGuy... please bring me up to date. I'm sure you've probably already answered this several times along the line, but if so I missed it. Anyway, where are you NOW in your training? Are you in the same system and did you finally test and earn your black belt? ...or even higher rank?


Eventually yes, although it took me much longer than it should've. I had plans in life that depended on me getting a black belt within a certain time period. And no, I haven't been promoted to a higher rank. Although some people pursue it, I don't really care to pursue the higher degrees (2nd degree, 3rd degree, ect.) I just want to keep getting better in general. 



geezer said:


> And also, as the title of this very long thread is about the journey, not the destination, why are you still carrying on about the rank (destination) if you are still training and enjoying the journey???


That's the direction the thread has taken, there's been much talk about rank in this thread. And rank is the journey. There is no rank that's the ultimate destination. Just because you reach a certain rank doesn't mean the journey stops, it keeps going for as long as you're involved in the martial arts.



geezer said:


> Heck, I haven't been promoted in rank since 1987. Well, I did stop training for about 15 years, from about 1992 to 2007. But I've been back at it since the summer of 2007 ...that's _8 more years_, and teaching again for the last 6 years or so as well. It would be great to get at least one more promotion before I retire some day. I'd really like that. But if it doesn't happen...well I'm enjoying the journey. _How about you?_



Well I haven't been promoted since 2003, unless you include the few years I did Tae Kwon Do and got a gold belt, (third belt up). For me, getting first degree is enough for me in terms or rank but I would at least want to get that rank.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> And yet a number of people graded to first dan during that period, and somehow you were not in a position for one of them to say to you in passing, 'oh yeah, I had to apply'.


Those people who did bypass me and get first dan, they would ask sensei if they were ready and if sensei told them yes than they would test. I never asked. 



Gnarlie said:


> I don't see why this is still an issue for you anyway. The world has moved on.


Because its important to learn from your mistakes even though they're in the past. And, I've been trying to make the point that there is nothing wrong with asking the head instructor certain stuff and it appears lots of people agree with me but there are some people who say its disrespectful.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Ah I see and I'm very sorry, that's not a nice situation to be in. It's not pleasant admitting that either so well done you for getting it off your chest. what you need to do now is also get it off your mind, it's done, you've learnt from it and can move on, don't dwell on it anymore, move onwards and upwards.
> 
> Perhaps an end to this thread would be a good start, move on to something that's current for you.


Well I deal with past mistakes by talking about it. And let me tell you something about regret. Regret will haunt you, I speak from my own experience. My mistake was not talking to sensei. And lets face it, a sensei is a human being like anyone else so talking to them about stuff shouldn't be seen as disrespectful. You might agree with me on that but there's been people who don't and Im trying to drive the point home to them that a sensei is not a god.


----------



## PhotonGuy

geezer said:


> _PG_, you never got back and answered my question in post #338, which was  did you ever finally get your black belt, and are you currently training in the martial arts?
> 
> I ask because like _Tez_ in post #343 above, I believe you have spent more than enough time rehashing the past for whatever lessons may be learned, and I sincerely encourage you to move on and look forward to the journey ahead.



I've been off the board for awhile but by now I have answered you, a few posts up.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Chris Parker said:


> Sure, they might. Put it this way… just because someone isn't skilled enough to become a tennis pro, it doesn't mean they can't have a good amateur career. It's not a matter of anyone walking in the dojo being automatically good enough to get a black belt… as that's simply not the reality. But, by the same token, those unable to get a black belt don't stay as a white belt forever either.


It would depend on many factors, one of them being what standards the sensei sets for black belt and for the other belts. Somebody unable to get a black belt might not always stay a white belt but would they make it as far as one rank under black? That would mean that they would come so close but be unable to make that last step. 

As for being a tennis pro, very few people are ever at that level. Its like being in the NFL or the NBA or the Major Leagues. Not what I would consider an equivalent of black belt. I would consider an equivalent of black belt more along the lines of a student with an A average, or somebody who gets a high school or college diploma. Most people in high school or college eventually get their diploma if they're in there long enough and they don't drop out.



Chris Parker said:


> Yeah… you missed the tone there completely.



So what is the tone?



Chris Parker said:


> You missed what was being said. No-one thinks it's disrespectful to ask an instructor questions… or to ask what's required to grade or be assessed… the disrespect is shown when you ask to be graded off your own back. In that case, it's implying that you are a better judge of your rank and abilities than your instructor… but if you're just asking what you need to do, or show, to be assessed, that's not been claimed to be disrespectful by anyone.


Asking to be graded or asking to be automatically promoted in rank, I can see how that would be disrespectful but its not the same as asking if you're ready to test since with tests you can fail. And that's what I've been pointing out, that its only proper to ask the instructor if you're ready to test and if you're not what you need to do to get ready, what you need to work on. Assuming a student wants to advance.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> And rank is the journey.



This remains as wrong now as the other 6,483 (estimated) times you've said it. The journey and the destination are both about knowledge and skill. Rank is irrelevant to both the journey AND the destination.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> Those people who did bypass me and get first dan, they would ask sensei if they were ready and if sensei told them yes than they would test. I never asked.



And you didn't manage to find out from them what they had done in order to test?? 



PhotonGuy said:


> Because its important to learn from your mistakes even though they're in the past. And, I've been trying to make the point that there is nothing wrong with asking the head instructor certain stuff and it appears lots of people agree with me but there are some people who say its disrespectful.



I don't understand why it matters now, especially given that you have not graded further. You have referenced a number of times some kind of plan that involved you getting to first dan by a particular time. If you were never going to grade further, then what did it even matter?? Has this in some way stymied your grand plan for the rest of your martial career? Did you plan to go on to instruct and or open a dojo? Why does any of it matter? Why are we still talking about it?


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Regret will haunt you



Not if you don't let it. Many things happen to us in life that we have little or no control over, things happen that we could have dealt with differently or better but the trick to life is that while you don't have control over a lot of things you always have control over how you think about things and how you look at them. It's how people have survive horrors and unimaginable situations without breaking down. Let it go.


----------



## RowdyAz

Tez3 said:


> Not if you don't let it. Many things happen to us in life that we have little or no control over, things happen that we could have dealt with differently or better but the trick to life is that while you don't have control over a lot of things you always have control over how you think about things and how you look at them. It's how people have survive horrors and unimaginable situations without breaking down. Let it go.


Tez this is the most on point message that I have ever seen posted.  Not that I am a newbie but more the fact of life experience.  To hit the nail on the head with out the I rank you crap is a blessing.  Because at the end of the day means deadly squat.  I feel for the those whose rank is a club thing but in the heat of the moment means nothing. Godless, Godspeed 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Asking to be graded or asking to be automatically promoted in rank, I can see how that would be disrespectful but its not the same as asking if you're ready to test since with tests you can fail. And that's what I've been pointing out, that its only proper to ask the instructor if you're ready to test and if you're not what you need to do to get ready, what you need to work on. Assuming a student wants to advance.



Let it go, don't make me have to post the song.

It's trivial, it really is. I don't know how much you guys are getting on the news but at this moment refugees from the horrors of war, civil war, IS and the Taliban are making their way to try and find safe haven in Europe. There hasn't been a refugee crisis like this since World War Two. Not all are making it, children's bodies have been washing ashore in Italy and Greece, ( I can post photos if you insist) men women and children were found suffocated to death in a wagon abandoned on an Austrian motorway ( I can post photos of that horror as well), there are families walking from Syria to Europe, they are even walking from Afghanistan., some have walked up from Syria to the north of Russia across to Norway to find sanctuary ( look up the distance) children are walking huge distances on their own to get to Europe, people are getting on tiny inflatable boats and drowning in the Med, the misery, suffering and horror are overwhelming AND YOU ARE WHINGING ABOUT NOT GETTING A BLACK BELT FOR TEN YEARS.  Yes I'm shouting, because it's up to you, you have control of your life so bloody let it go and get on with a life that has been denied to so many.

This is a journey Out of Afghanistan: incredible stories of the boys who walked to Europe  Boys in Afghanistan are prone to being sexually abused. the girls to have acid thrown in their faces for attending school and also forced marriages. Black belt, not they don't think about that.
Syrian refugees find Arctic route towards western Europe

How the people of Iceland view things, excellent people. Icelanders call on government to take in more Syrian refugees

So, still regret not getting your belt? It doesn't matter, you can't go back, go out, do a sponsored kickathon/press-ups/something and raise money for the refugees but *please stop whining.*


----------



## Gnarlie

Tez3 said:


> Let it go, don't make me have to post the song.
> 
> It's trivial, it really is. I don't know how much you guys are getting on the news but at this moment refugees from the horrors of war, civil war, IS and the Taliban are making their way to try and find safe haven in Europe. There hasn't been a refugee crisis like this since World War Two. Not all are making it, children's bodies have been washing ashore in Italy and Greece, ( I can post photos if you insist) men women and children were found suffocated to death in a wagon abandoned on an Austrian motorway ( I can post photos of that horror as well), there are families walking from Syria to Europe, they are even walking from Afghanistan., some have walked up from Syria to the north of Russia across to Norway to find sanctuary ( look up the distance) children are walking huge distances on their own to get to Europe, people are getting on tiny inflatable boats and drowning in the Med, the misery, suffering and horror are overwhelming AND YOU ARE WHINGING ABOUT NOT GETTING A BLACK BELT FOR TEN YEARS.  Yes I'm shouting, because it's up to you, you have control of your life so bloody let it go and get on with a life that has been denied to so many.
> 
> This is a journey Out of Afghanistan: incredible stories of the boys who walked to Europe  Boys in Afghanistan are prone to being sexually abused. the girls to have acid thrown in their faces for attending school and also forced marriages. Black belt, not they don't think about that.
> Syrian refugees find Arctic route towards western Europe
> 
> How the people of Iceland view things, excellent people. Icelanders call on government to take in more Syrian refugees
> 
> So, still regret not getting your belt? It doesn't matter, you can't go back, go out, do a sponsored kickathon/press-ups/something and raise money for the refugees but *please stop whining.*



Was able to greet and help some of those people face to face yesterday. Very moving.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-for-refugees-arriving-by-train-10481522.html


----------



## Tez3

Gnarlie said:


> Was able to greet and help some of those people face to face yesterday. Very moving.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-for-refugees-arriving-by-train-10481522.html




Germany has been so good hasn't it, I'm glad you could help too. We're collecting clothes etc for the people in Calais.

The thing is that PG needs to think about is that wallowing in your own mistakes and regrets gets you no where, in the scheme of things we are all actually very small so getting out, helping others, being positive and not dwelling on the past is something that makes a difference not just for you but for others. A long thread on MT doesn't mean a lot either but if it's symptomatic of the way PG lives his life then it's not a good way to live.


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## Tez3

PG..... this is the account of one volunteer who went to Calais to help the refugees. It's hard sometimes not to think you are the only one in the world who has problems and other people's problems don't concern you but they do, it should matter to all of us because there but for the grace of G-d go you and I.
I make no apologies for totally derailing the thread, there is a purpose to this, for people to see that there is more than 'I' in life, there is 'us'.


_"I went to Calais with no expectation. Full of fear that the atrocities I had seen in the media might be correct and that the people there were in fact the monsters that that have been portrayed. Was I self entitled and feeling guilty? Perhaps. Was I scared that I was leading other people to believe that there were good people in the jungle and I might be wrong? Maybe. Was I full of hope that everything above would be overcome by the reality of the plight we would encounter. I hoped so. 

[Moderator note - Edited to comply with Fair Use Doctrine.]_


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## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> This remains as wrong now as the other 6,483 (estimated) times you've said it. The journey and the destination are both about knowledge and skill. Rank is irrelevant to both the journey AND the destination.


Knowledge and skill are required for rank so therefore rank would be part of the journey. This wouldn't apply to styles that don't use rank and based on your approach to rank that you've made clear about 6,483 times yourself you don't sound like somebody who would use rank when you teach.


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## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> And you didn't manage to find out from them what they had done in order to test??


Nope. I just assumed that sensei had told them they could test. As you said before, perhaps I didn't socially engage enough with the other students.



Gnarlie said:


> I don't understand why it matters now, especially given that you have not graded further. You have referenced a number of times some kind of plan that involved you getting to first dan by a particular time. If you were never going to grade further, then what did it even matter?? Has this in some way stymied your grand plan for the rest of your martial career? Did you plan to go on to instruct and or open a dojo? Why does any of it matter? Why are we still talking about it?


There are lots of people who might get to a certain belt level and than not care to progress any further, that belt level might be first degree or it might not be. There is a guy at my dojo who made it to low brown, the first of the brown belt levels and three levels below first degree, and he doesn't care to promote any more. Nevertheless it was important for him to at least get a brown belt just like it was important for me to at least get first degree. 
As for wanting to get a black belt by a certain time period, I had plans in life that depended on it and yes I do plan to eventually teach but I had other plans that relied on it too. I could go on and on but I don't want to bore you but I will say this much for now, one of the main reasons I wanted to get a black belt before I turned 20 is because doing certain stuff such as getting a black belt is what being a teenager is all about.
Now, why this matters and why we're still talking about it is because people are asking me stuff about it just like you did in this post. And Im answering.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Not if you don't let it. Many things happen to us in life that we have little or no control over, things happen that we could have dealt with differently or better but the trick to life is that while you don't have control over a lot of things you always have control over how you think about things and how you look at them. It's how people have survive horrors and unimaginable situations without breaking down. Let it go.



Stuff that you have no control over is one thing but stuff you do have control over is another matter. When you could've made the right decision but instead chose not to because the alternative was easier. That's what for me causes regret. I don't particularly agree with B.F. Skinner who claims that we really have control over nothing, including our own so called decisions.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> It's hard sometimes not to think you are the only one in the world who has problems and other people's problems don't concern you but they do, it should matter to all of us because there but for the grace of G-d go you and I.
> I make no apologies for totally derailing the thread, there is a purpose to this, for people to see that there is more than 'I' in life, there is 'us'.


Of course Im concerned with other people's problems that's why Im a youth rights activist and why Im in other organizations that fight for good causes that aren't for my greater good but for the greater good of society as a whole.

Now I've further derailed the thread, hopefully it won't get too much off track.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Stuff that you have no control over is one thing but stuff you do have control over is another matter. When you could've made the right decision but instead chose not to because the alternative was easier. That's what for me causes regret. I don't particularly agree with B.F. Skinner who claims that we really have control over nothing, including our own so called decisions.




No it doesn't matter what the situation is you have control over how you feel about it. You make the wrong decision, tough, you learn and move on, there's no one who has never made a wrong decision, it educates us and we are better for it. You can make the decision now to leave this behind you and move on...and not answer anymore.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Of course Im concerned with other people's problems that's why Im a youth rights activist and why Im in other organizations that fight for good causes that aren't for my greater good but for the greater good of society as a whole.
> 
> Now I've further derailed the thread, hopefully it won't get too much off track.



No, it needs to go off track if not off altogether.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Knowledge and skill are required for rank so therefore rank would be part of the journey. This wouldn't apply to styles that don't use rank and based on your approach to rank that you've made clear about 6,483 times yourself you don't sound like somebody who would use rank when you teach.



I do use rank, because it serves a purpose and because it's a part of the TKD traditions. I just don't think it's all that important, and unlike you, I don't think rank is the goal of training.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> I do use rank, because it serves a purpose and because it's a part of the TKD traditions. I just don't think it's all that important, and unlike you, I don't think rank is the goal of training.



You're certainly entitled to your opinion but you should realize that if you do use rank that some students will at least pursue it as a goal. They might not consider it the goal or the only goal but I would say most students who take up a system with rank will want to advance sooner or later.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> You're certainly entitled to your opinion but you should realize that if you do use rank that some students will at least pursue it as a goal. They might not consider it the goal or the only goal but I would say most students who take up a system with rank will want to advance sooner or later.



Some of our students are focused on rank. But they're also pre-pubescent, so I expect their focus - and their understanding- to be different. The adults and more advanced teens are all focused on skill as a measure of progress. Not belt color. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> Some of our students are focused on rank. But they're also pre-pubescent, so I expect their focus - and their understanding- to be different. The adults and more advanced teens are all focused on skill as a measure of progress. Not belt color.
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.



I would still think that eventually most of them would want to advance. If they've developed the skill they would want the rank that they earn with it. If its taking a student much longer than average to advance I think they would want to know why. Rank might not be a primary focus but most students I would think would care about it somewhat.

You could say the same thing about academics. Should grades be a focus in school? (A, B, C, D, F). Maybe students should be more focused on acquiring academic knowledge and proficiency rather than getting As, of course you need knowledge and proficiency to get As.

Its been said that comparing an A to a black belt is not a good analogy because an A is just a one time performance on a test whereas a black belt is the result of accumulated knowledge and skill over years of training. I think a better analogy would be an A not just for one test but for the entire semester, year, or when you graduate high school or college. Getting an A for an entire semester, or an entire year, or graduating high school or college with a 4.0 average you could say is the equivalent of a black belt in academics.


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## PhotonGuy

I would like to say that some people here have said that their instructor tells them when they will test for all belts, not just the black belt but all the belts. Then there are some instructors that allow students to choose if they want to test when the tests come up which might be every other month or every four months or whatever. It doesn't mean they will pass but they can test if they want. Anyway I would like to say that instructors who tell their students to test for all the belts, if the instructor is going to do it like that it should be for all the belts not just the black belt. If the instructor allows students to decide for themselves if they want to test when the tests come up it should be for all the belts including the black belt. It shouldn't be that an instructor allows students to decide if they will test for the other belts but requires that they tell the student when they will test for the black belt.


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## Tez3




----------



## Gnarlie

I'm out now, we have been around this loop so many times, the time has finally come to stop this crazy whirlygig of fun. PG, there are experts in their field here who have told you time and again that your view on many of these points is incorrect, if you are still in denial maybe it is time to pack up your opinions and keep them to yourself instead of repeating yourself over and over.

My final statements here are:

Assessment of martial arts and assessment of academic study are not comparable in any way that supports whatever point it is that you are trying to make, I don't know why you keep coming back to that point.

There is no equivalent of a black belt in academics. There isn't even equivalency between black belts. Rank only means anything inside of the organisation in which is is awarded. Which is one reason why we are concerned more with skill.

Instructors and examiners can run their testing process however they see fit - if you don't like it, don't participate.


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## Dirty Dog

I agree with Tez3 and Gnarlie. I'm just going to click "Disagree" on all the repetitious circular, long shown to be wrong posts. It's faster and easier.


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## PhotonGuy

Whatever. You all don't run my dojo and so therefore you don't set the rules there so therefore I don't see the point in debating this with you. My sensei does not get offended with students who ask about whats required for rank or what they need to do to get to the next rank. Anyway, one of the first persons who told me that myth at my dojo that you had to be told before you could test for the black belt was somebody who was no doubt full of pooh, he also told me he had some government job working for the FBI or something like that and that he had been to the Pentagon and that he had seen Navy SEALS doing crazy stuff there such as sparring full contact where they kick each other as hard as they can wearing combat boots which I think is a bunch of baloney because elite units including the Navy SEALS, well, its super duper expensive to train those guys and so therefore they don't want them to get unnecessarily hurt which includes sparring full contact with boots. Well I should've known better, guys who tell silly stories like that you can't trust about  other stuff such as if you need to be told before you can test for a black belt.

Anyway, I just want to say, speaking of the Navy SEALS and all, at one time I wanted to be a Navy SEAL and if I had done that it would've been in my early 20s but first I had to get a black belt. Now, as far as I know the Navy does not require somebody to be a black belt prior to being a SEAL but it was a requirement I had for myself, a self imposed requirement I had for myself.

Now, I got that off my chest so hopefully I can be satisfied with that. Anyway, I just want to say that right now I am under the influence of alcohol so if what I say sounds a bit crazy you know why but hey, Im not driving. Now God  bless you all and good night. In the name of Jesus I am not afraid to speak my mind. God bless.

P.S. getting a black belt is what being a teenager is all about. Now good night. God bless.


----------



## Zero

PhotonGuy said:


> Anyway, I just want to say, speaking of the Navy SEALS and all, at one time I wanted to be a Navy SEAL and if I had done that it would've been in my early 20s but first I had to get a black belt. Now, as far as I know the Navy does not require somebody to be a black belt prior to being a SEAL but it was a requirement I had for myself, a self imposed requirement I had for myself.



In the words of Dr Leonard H. "Bones" McCoy:  "My God man!!"

So this is not a great approach to life in anyway. 

You have a goal, a great goal, a very, very challenging goal (a goal not obtainable by many who even try for it).  And then to make sure you never get to really try for this goal, you put a made up goal of your own ahead of it in the queue as a pre-qualification requirement???...??!!  

"I want to be a SEAL, but, you know, that's not like hard enough in itself, so I'm gonna have to get a black belt before I turn 20 before I can go for this and if I don't get that black belt, well, then, 'asta la pasta Navy SEALS!!"



PhotonGuy said:


> P.S. getting a black belt is what being a teenager is all about. Now good night. God bless.


No, no it really is not.    I really hope that was not your be all and end all focus as a teenager.  And I really hope you don't really see that now as what teen-hood is all about...


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## Zero

I had to get that off my chest and now (I don't know if it will work, not sure if have the powers to pull it off), I am going to try this for everyone's sake...


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## Zero

THREAD LOCKED


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