# Why does everyone mouth off on TKD?



## Humble artist

I´m not TKD pracitioner myself,even though I respect it as "one of the arts":shrug:   honestly,I do.
I wonder why so many non-TKD practitioners seem to hate TKD,always saying how bad it is-how so many schools suck ("to this day I haven´t seen one good school") How it´s ineffective and so on.
I´ve even seen threads like "Is TKD any good...`?"
I can´t say i would know very much about it but I think that I do have "the basics down" in a way or another.
I guess it is quite a same thing when it comes to aikido (another widely misunderstood art) So many to blame,at least this is how I see it.Trough these black glasses 
:ubercool:  
So...?
:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard

Welcome to MartialTalk 

I think it can be boiled down to the following:
1- friendly kidding around
2- bad experiences with particular groups / schools
3- sour grapes.  The TKD schools seem to be the most common (at least in my area)
4- Perception of TKD as ineffective as a 'combat' art due to the emphasis on tourniments (every school I've seen has buttloads of trophys in the window)
5- They did TKD in the past, and have since moved on to something "better".

Or any combination of the above.

My personal opinion to anyone interested in TKD (or any art) is spend several days at the school and watch several classes.  This way you get a feel for how things run there.  Check with the BBB (in the US) too.

:asian:


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## tshadowchaser

My first black belt was in TKD. And I realy didn,tknowanything that would help me in the real world.
I do know a good TKD school the instructor knows enough about the streets to be intellegent in how he teaches techniques.
He also allows's hands to be used more than most TKD schools.  
 I agree with Kaith most ofus have had bad experiences, or seen to many 8 year old black belts.
Strickly MHO
Shadow  

:asian:


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## kickyou

I have used my Tae Kwon-Do training in actual confrontations from when I worked security at a local bar.I guarantee you that none of the people on the wrong side of my kicks or my other techniques would dog Tae Kwon-Do.They felt how effective it is when done properly.Once again TKD or any other MA is only as good as the person that is using it.


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## Ty K. Doe

And the person using it can only be as good as the one teaching it.  What I mean is, if your a black belt within 9 months your instructor isn't training you properly.  Everyone accells based on their level of athleticism, but your instructor has a great deal of influence on your techiques and form.

Sorry, I'm just trying to get enough posts to get promoted to yellow belt.


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## Drunken Master

It seems to me that Taekwon-Do is more respected in the UK than in the US.

If you read through UK forums us poor old Taekwon-Do practisioners don't get any more abuse than any other art.


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## Battousai

My own experience with TKD, training in it, and watching all of the classes taught in my city, make it out to be the most worthless martial art. However people talk of a "real" TKD somewere out there...


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## Klondike93

I don't think it's a worthless art, I got my black belt in it, and it took longer than 6 months I can tell ya.  It's just when you get out of the TKD school and start to experience other arts, you find that some of them can be more effective, at least I did.
The instuctor quote is true, but I did have some pretty good ones there. After going out on my own I was taught how to kick correctly with out messing my knees any further and it's totaly different than you'll learn in TKD (It's called "open hip" kicking).
Give it try once and you'll never go back!!

:asian:


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## Bagatha

> _Originally posted by Battousai _
> 
> *My own experience with TKD, training in it, and watching all of the classes taught in my city, make it out to be the most worthless martial art. However people talk of a "real" TKD somewere out there... *



There sure is alot of garbage you have to sift through for sure.


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## Drunken Master

In the defense of Taekwon-Do (Well ITF Taekwon-Do at least)

:asian: I have been training in ITF Taekwon-Do for over a year now and have just passed my third grading (7th kup) receiving my green tag.

Grading every 3 months and allowing for 6 month gaps for black tag and black belt I should achieve my black belt in another 3 years.

So I don't our school can be accused of being a McDojo.

Our instructer always spends time telling us the practical applications of the techniques we perform in a real life situation.

Taekwon


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## Klondike93

I once had the chance to work out with a black belt from England and he was a pretty good fighter and nice guy too, I just can't remember his name at all. He's probably a high ranking official by now. 


:asian:


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## Pyrael

dude tkd isnt worthless...i've taken it for half my life and found even some of the simplest techniques most useful even in combat; roundhouses thrusting sidekicks etc. the quickness i gained and the flexibility can dominate.  

but on the lesser side yes i understand why tkd seems 'waterd down' my opinion, there are simply a lot of kids/ juniors that needed some special attention...iono


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## Danny

People say TKD sucks, because unfortunately most schools do.  When taught properly, however, TKD (ITF at least, I cannot speak for WTF) is a very effective art.  The open tournments I've been to have been a joke so far as fighting Karate, and Kung Fu practitioners.  They weren't even in the same league.  Heck we have some beatiful video of our guys beating some poor Mexican Karate guys senseless.  (Literally.)  Can I assume from this that all forms of Karate, and Kung Fu are worthless?  No.  So please don't paint all forms and schools of TKD with the same brush.


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## Klondike93

About the only problem I ever had with TKD was you had to go some where else to learn how to use your hands.  I could kick
ok, much better now that I know how to kick correctly, but had no hands. You spend 80% of your time learning some really cool kicks but you don't work on hand stuff like if you were a kickboxer or some other art where the hands are stressed more than the feet.  


:asian:


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## Kirk

I don't know what federation olympic rules follow, but when they
were fighting, they had their hands down at their sides.  Which
is just suicide in a street fight.  Why were OLYMPIANS fighting
like that??!?!?!


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## Klondike93

That's my point too, they can only hit to the body with the hands and most of those guys don't do anything with their hands.
Example: I got the chance to some sparring with some Olympic TKD guys and we were sparring like point sparring, hands and feet are padded and punches to the face are allowed. They got killed, and all because they don't practice their hands. Now if we were fighting under olympic rules, they might not have done so bad, but you have to learn to use your hands or I'm sorry your only half a fighter.

:asian:


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## Danny

Your painting all of TKD with one brush again.  It's only the WTF guys that fight like that.  Read ITF rules here: ITF Sparring Rules

Head shots are perfectly legal.  Hands, and feet.


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## Klondike93

I know ITF rules, fought them many times, would rather fight with those rules than WTF stuff.  

:asian:


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## white dragon

Please bear in mind that the no punching to the face rule only applies in competition IT IS NOT TAUGHT THAT WAY IN A PROPER WTF CLASS. Nor is point sparring. I don't lie point sparring, and prefer the continuous sparring and full contact of WTF, I think point sparring can get you into a bad habbit. Going up against some TAGB friends everytime I'd score with a kick off them they would just stop because that's what they're used to, which means I'd always land a kick or extra punch in there. 

I wonder while you're dogging WTF as a whole, just how many of your ITF classes or other martial arts for that matter ever train outside of your Dojang? On an uneven surface? Not always in a Dobock? I'm very happy to say that my school does, we're taught more than just "flashy kicks", we DO actually learn hand techniques, if we didn't why would we put so many hand techniques in our patterns? 

I feel very sorry for those people that think they have gone into a real TKD class when they step into a mcdojo and then have that forever in their mind as to how ALL tkd is. I could easily step into a shitty Kempo class and then believe that all Kempo classes must be worthless, I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't like that.


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## ThuNder_FoOt

Very true words from white dragon. 

I'm a practitioner of TKD, and I've had the pleasure of participating in both WTF and ITF. The only thing I don't like about WTF, is how a big distinction between sparring techniques and self-defense techniques must be made. There has been many times where I see a school split into 2 parts... and sparring is separated. I think its very much needed in self-defense practice as well. But then again, this goes for any art. Techniques must be watered down to prevent injuries.

As far as the low arms guard, that is a sparring tactic created, based on the olympic rules.

I dunno, maybe some WTF instructors get too caught up in the rules of TKD sparring, which handicappes the art. Um, nah... it all depends on your particular instructor and student, as white dragon previously stated. :asian:


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## white dragon

There is indeed a big distinction between competition sparring and self-defence, but then it's just that, competition sparring. I haven't spoken to a WTF club (which is pretty much every university in the UK that teaches WTF) that normally trains in a competition fashion. When sparring we tend to not really have many rules, apart from keep it light, and not going for the eyes. We also tend not to kick below the waist, unless out instructor says to us personally that we can (this doesn't include sweeps) after a couple of people came into the class with no control started smacking people in the balls and actually kicked someones knee cap out. But apart from that, all kicks, punches, holds, throws, sweeps, locks are all allowed as long as you can control them. 

Think of say WTF sparring in the sense that you would think of something if you were going to perform it in a competition, such as breaking. You're never going to need to ridge-hand through a load of bricks in the middle of a street fight, sure, but it doesn't mean you won't want to maybe practice before in class... does that make sense?


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## Klondike93

> the no punching to the face rule only applies in competition



Not from what I've seen in some of the WTF schools I've been in.



> I don't like point sparring, and prefer the continuous sparring



Point sparring should be looked at as a game of strategy. You have to use distance and speed to get any points. It's not like your fighting some full contact fighter, it's a game of tag period.
I like continous as well, it's fun you learn to put combos together and you need stamina. 



> we DO actually learn hand techniques, if we didn't why would we put so many hand techniques in our patterns?



Don't know why, filler maybe? 



> just how many of your ITF classes or other martial arts for that matter ever train outside of your Dojang?



The ITF, never while I was there. Other schools I've been to, quite often.



> I could easily step into a shitty Kempo class and then believe that all Kempo classes must be worthless



Good point, and you'll probably find quite a few of those, that goes for TKD as well, WTF, ITF, ATA, whoever.

:asian:


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## white dragon

Games of tag are fun, maybe the next time someone tries to steal your wallet, you should suggest playing a game?

Maybe the hand techniques are in the patterns because, shock horror, they are valid techniques? Just a wild stab in the dark... which as it happens will be something you'll be getting unless you start being more respectful  

At the end of the day, a bad teacher = bad school. It doesn't matter what style, what type of MA. It seems reading the boards though that there are more than the fair share of ***** instructors prentending to teach TKD in America (mainly). Who know though, maybe one day some of us will get the chance to go over there and show them how it should be done.... untill then people should look into schools more before joining, if you're stupid enough to think anyone can promise you a blackbelt then you deserve to have your money taken...


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## Klondike93

> Games of tag are fun, maybe the next time someone tries to steal your wallet, you should suggest playing a game?



You missed the point on that one.



> Just a wild stab in the dark... which as it happens will be something you'll be getting unless you start being more respectfu



Doubtful   

My point was that TKD taught me no hand techniques. I learned how to use my feet fine, but when it came to hand skills, it was really lacking. I've moved on to kenpo for that training, and now I'm learning systema as well.  
I really don't care at all about WTF or ITF fighters, I'll spar with all of them and hope I hold my own.  I've seen good ones out of both organizations.


:asian:


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## white dragon

> You missed the point on that one.


sorry I ddi get what you meant, I should have put a smiley face after that so you knew that I was kidding! 

to be honest I don't care about WTF or ITF, and if the two merge or never do it wouldn't really mean much to me at all, unless I feel the art suffers for it. It just annoys me when people slag off one or the other without ever really trying it.


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## deadhand31

ok ok ok.... you guys are really generalizing here..... i've seen exceptions to what you said........


i sparred a guy who's in an ITF school. he never used his hands for anything besides blocking. for the most part he let them stay at his side. he didn't seem worried about getting punched. he still whooped me, though, considering he's a 3rd dan with 18 years experience. 

i'm in a WTF school. we ARE prohibited from face contact in competition, but taught that the face is a very good target in self defense. as for punching to the head........ you better have damn good accuracy. punch a guy in the mouth, you'll get their teeth embedded in your hand. the only place you can safely punch a guy on his head is the nose. 

my instructor says that he'll let anyone throw a full-power punch to his forehead. mostly because it will teach a painful lesson: the human skull has the density of a bowling ball. if you're going to hit anywhere but the nose, do a palm strike!


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## Danny

> I wonder while you're dogging WTF as a whole, just how many of your ITF classes or other martial arts for that matter ever train outside of your Dojang? On an uneven surface? Not always in a Dobock? I'm very happy to say that my school does, we're taught more than just "flashy kicks", we DO actually learn hand techniques, if we didn't why would we put so many hand techniques in our patterns?



Actually we do.  We train outside every summer.  In shorts and a t-shirt plus shoes.  That's if you don't count the runs, and the road rage self defense we do.  Of course 8 months out of the year it's just to cold to train any where but inside.



> Think of say WTF sparring in the sense that you would think of something if you were going to perform it in a competition, such as breaking. You're never going to need to ridge-hand through a load of bricks in the middle of a street fight, sure, but it doesn't mean you won't want to maybe practice before in class... does that make sense?



No your going to smash through a guys rib cage so he doesn't get up, allowing you to deal with his buddies.



> i'm in a WTF school. we ARE prohibited from face contact in competition, but taught that the face is a very good target in self defense. as for punching to the head........ you better have damn good accuracy. punch a guy in the mouth, you'll get their teeth embedded in your hand. the only place you can safely punch a guy on his head is the nose.



Common now there are lots of vital spots on the face.  Temple, eyes, upward puch to the jaw knock 'em out cold, punch to the side of the jaw dislocate it, base of the skull, etc.


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## white dragon

Glad to hear you get to train outside, it's a pretty good experience trying something on an uneven surface, or a wet surface, anything that you're not used to basically to myabe help prepare you more for if the worst happened and you were attacked. 



> No your going to smash through a guys rib cage so he doesn't get up, allowing you to deal with his buddies.



A good point, but unlike a competition a guy won't stand there and let you trace a line to his rib cage and back several times and let you center yourself as you see people do before they break boards.



> Common now there are lots of vital spots on the face. Temple, eyes, upward puch to the jaw knock 'em out cold, punch to the side of the jaw dislocate it, base of the skull, etc.



Couldn't agree more, also just behind ear, along the jaw line hurts like hell if hit right, or just pressed firmly with a finger will stop most people dead in their tracks.


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## Battousai

I don't know much anything about these organizations, ITF, WTF, but it seems that there are both good and bad things said about each one. There can be good and bad instructors in both...
 The real problem is with the credibility of these organizations. If some people say that they have great instructors, yet other people say that their experience with these organizations leaves alot to be desired, there must be something wrong.
 What does it take to be in the ITF, WTF, and why do these organizations have schools of low quality? From what I've read in these posts and in other forums, both ITF and WTF are corrupt organizations.


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## Danny

> A good point, but unlike a competition a guy won't stand there and let you trace a line to his rib cage and back several times and let you center yourself as you see people do before they break boards.



True, but if you can break 4 boards in ideal conditions, you can probably break at least 2 in less then perfect conditions.  Remeber one board is about equal to one rib.


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## Cthulhu

> _Originally posted by Danny _
> 
> *
> 
> True, but if you can break 4 boards in ideal conditions, you can probably break at least 2 in less then perfect conditions.  Remeber one board is about equal to one rib. *



Again, I can't see how 'one board equalling one rib' can be accurate.  One is a dried, brittle, flat dead thing and the other is a curved, flexible living thing.  Ribs can and do flex.  Boards (the ones used for breaking) have significantly less flexion.

Cthulhu


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## Pyrael

> _Originally posted by Danny _
> 
> *
> 
> True, but if you can break 4 boards in ideal conditions, you can probably break at least 2 in less then perfect conditions.  Remeber one board is about equal to one rib. *



i agree with Cthulhu, you cant compare bone with wood...


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## kickyou

As a Nurse I can tell you that the ribs break very easily,especially when you consider when you hit them you are pushing them in the opposite way that they are curved.They are also only about 1/2 inch thick.They are broken regularly when CPR is performed.In fact it is easier to do CPR when the ribs are broken away from the sternum and it is not hard to do.I have done this several times while performing CPR.I have also broken someone's ribs while in a confrontation and I did not kick them with my full power.


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## Pyrael

interesting, can you give an exact amount of pressure the ribs would break under? like i know the ear can be ripped off by like a few pounds or some unit of measure


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## Cthulhu

> _Originally posted by kickyou _
> 
> *As a Nurse I can tell you that the ribs break very easily,especially when you consider when you hit them you are pushing them in the opposite way that they are curved.They are also only about 1/2 inch thick.They are broken regularly when CPR is performed.In fact it is easier to do CPR when the ribs are broken away from the sternum and it is not hard to do.I have done this several times while performing CPR.I have also broken someone's ribs while in a confrontation and I did not kick them with my full power. *



I can see it being easy to break a rib away from the sternum, as that should just be a bone-cartilage connection.  Is it just as easy to actually snap just a rib?

Cthulhu


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## white dragon

if you're ridge-handing somone though wouldn't you mainly be going for the floating ribs, which will bend, also the body will bend to take the force, making it harder to break, right?

Doesn't the Feema (sp? the leg bone, you know what I mean) only take something like 60-90dpi to break? I can EASILY punch through that, let a lone kick through it, but if you did that on someone's real leg I'm pretty sure it wouldn't snap as easily. Not saying it isn't done, hell it's the most common form of death in sport in this country I think. Mainly rugby players, they break the bone and cut the artry and bleed to death. I think it only take about 3 minutes? *Kickyou* might be able to correct or confirm this. That's actually a reason why an axe kick in tkd aims for the collar bone, as it's easy(ish) to break and will often leave the victim to bleed to death pretty fast. Nice.


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## arnisador

I bruised my floating ribs recently--the physician told me they are harder to fracture or break because they are, well, floating.


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## Cthulhu

Yes, and the basic structure of a rib is an arch, which is a notoriously strong structure.

As for the femur, those break tests were probably done under controlled conditions, where both ends of the bone were fixed and the pressure was applied directly perpendicular to the long axis of the bone.

In a real fighting situation, the leg will most likely be undergoing some motion, making a perfectly perpendicular strike improbable.  Furthermore, when that leg is kicked, it will buckle in some way or another, meaning both ends of the bone will not be in some fixed position.

Cthulhu


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## Ty K. Doe

> Doesn't the Feema (sp? the leg bone, you know what I mean) only take something like 60-90dpi to break?



I don't think the femur can be broken with Dots Per Inch, maybe psi, Pounds per Square Inch.


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## Klondike93

I was told I seperated the cartliage in my left ribs, they took x-rays and couldn't find a break anyways.  That was interesting, I couldn't breathe very deep at all.  I was having such a hard time breathing I thought I was having a heart attack.

:asian:


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## white dragon

no no, it's dpi, it's a SPECIAL technique, for SPECIAL people, so no wonder you don't know about it... but I guess so some people don't feel left out, we could call it PSI   yeah, my bad!


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## Cthulhu

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *I was told I seperated the cartliage in my left ribs, they took x-rays and couldn't find a break anyways.  That was interesting, I couldn't breathe very deep at all.  I was having such a hard time breathing I thought I was having a heart attack.
> 
> :asian: *



That makes sense, since cartilage doesn't show up very well on X-rays...in fact, I don't think it does at all.

The design of the rib cage allows for a lot of flexibility of the structure.  You want something sturdy to protect the lungs and heart, but you don't want it to be too brittle as to shatter upon hard enough impact, potentially causing bone fragments to rupture the heart and/or lungs.

Cthulhu


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## Kempojujutsu

I am not here to defend Tae kwon do, I do know it has it's limitations. Most of us know that, but in it's defense not all Tkd schools are the same. The ones that get the most bad rap are the ATA style. I believe the ITF is much better. I had a student that was studying both TKD & Kempojujutsu, he did some  kempo things in TKD and was told that was not TKD. To me if it works use it who cares where it comes from. 

Bob Thomas :drinkbeer :moon: :duel:


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## karatekid1975

Hiya all.

The thing I don't like about my school is not enough self defence. They are pretty even when it comes to showing basics, step sparring, forms, and sparring, but I been there 4 months and they showed us self defense 3 times. That's it. Plus one can't learn step sparring till green belt.

When I was in TSD, I learned step sparring (at least 5 hand techniques and 5 foot techniques) and self defense (releases, pressure points, and wrists and arm locks) at white belt. It wasn't nothing fancy, but at least, I learned the basics of each. We practiced self defence in my old school, at least, twice a week. And I thought that was bad, till I came here.

Last night was one of the times they showed us self defense, and my partner said "I donno if I'll remember it, because I did it only twice." So, I'm not the only one who thinks it needs to be a "more often" thing.

I'm not bashing TKD at all. It has nothing to do with it. It depends on the instructor. I got into MA for self defense, and my instructor lacks in that department at the moment.


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## arnisador

It sounds like you need a partner you can practice with outside of class! It seems as though you have the basic knowledge but not enough time to practice it!


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## Cthulhu

What part of NY are you in?  Tim Hartman (Modern Arnis...our very own Renegade) is based there, as well as martial artists from several other systems.  

Cthulhu


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## Klondike93

When I was in TKD, whenever we did step sparring, we were told to be flashy and not simple. It was fun, but not very practical at all.  When I took my black belt test, part of it involved a thing called Ho Sin Sul (self defense). It's a pre-arranged self defense moves, and I decided to do some kenpo I was learning for it to make it look more realistic.    


:asian:


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## Cthulhu

Mod. Note:

Deleted duplicate post.

Cthulhu
-MT Mod.-


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## Klondike93

Thank you sir, my computer sneezed and posted the thing twice.

Happen to have a kleenex?

:asian:


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## karatekid1975

Klondike.

You got that right. I remember everything I learned in TSD self defense and I haven't done it in four months (since I moved). That's because we did it so much. In this school, I can't remember anything they showed me. When they do, I have a habit of doing it the TSD way   Oops hehehe I got yelled at last night for that. But it (TSD self defense) is what I practiced a lot and had drilled in my head. This new school needs to do the same thing (so, at least, students will remember even doing self defense in class   lol).


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## white dragon

I don't see why some instructors have problems with people using self defence they learned in other classes, unless they think it wouldn't work, in which case can't they take the time to explain why they think that? 

When we do step sparring we're not told to use the flashiest moves me know, but rather the dirtiest! Beginners will start off learning just using basic punches and do for a while, but this is so it becomes second nature, some people do find this boring and want to move on, but there is thinking behind it. 

After reading posts from various sources and talking to people from different clubs, I don't think there's anyway at all you could call the class I'm in a "traditional" TKD class. We hardly do any sport sparring, lots of self defence and use our hands a lot. We also use sweeps, taught weapon defence, kick below the belt, do take-downs, throws and learn breakfalling. To me this has been what taekwondo is about, it's always seemed practicle, I've been bullshitted about a technique, we're constantly told that in a fight situation that we shouldn't try and pull off flashy kicks and just stick to the basics which have been ground into us. I thought this was how TKD had always been taught and it was recently that it had been diluted, but maybe it's always been weak and what I'm learning is a mix between tkd, bjj and karate. We've even had a couple of converts from the JKD class because they came down and thought our class was more "adpated to real life combat". 

I'm hoping bad schools are more the exception to the rule, rather than a class like mine being the odd one out. If that's the case then I find it very sad and can see why people think it's rather limited. but this to me is tkd, it's how I want to learn it and it's how it'd teach to people in the future should that be a path I take. 

Respect and Harmony.


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## karatekid1975

Hey Dragon.

Amen! I agree with you. I think that's how a class should be taught. I'm no expert when it comes to MA, but I've been in it long enough to know that a good school teaches a little of everything (self defense, step sparring, forms, ect) in one class or a few times a week.


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## ThuNder_FoOt

I say argh to some of you people.  No matter what MA site i go to, there is always people talking bad about TKD... oh well, what am I going to do? 

Why does it have to be Kenpo people all the time? Does Kenpo really hate TKD that much? I am not making a generalization, I'm just talking from my experience. 

I actually TRIED to learn Kenpo over here at 3 different schools. When the instructors asked me if I've studied MA before, I told them I teach TKD, then each one of them (different people at different times) all laughed at me. I couldn't stay at a Kenpo school longer than a month, as they would always crack jokes and mock my art. I've also visited about 5 more schools just browsings, and most of them said they hate TKD. These organizations were fairly known. And their instructors were not good at all, i mean their techniques were ok, but no morals. I mean even the students were laughing at the fact that I teach TKD, and this was at 2 of the 3 individual schools. One instructor even went so far as to have me spar him infront of the whole class, with no gear... like a showcase match, just to show how Kenpo would do against TKD. He was pretty embarrassed when i tapped him out in an instep press, telling the students that  the technique wasn't TKD so he didn't expect it.

I could easily say that kenpo schools are crappy, and would have means to justify it, but I understand that there are crappy schools in EVERY style.  And no one school has more crappy schools than another, its all the same. Some of you people resemble the "Cobra-Kai" from the "Karate Kid" movie, a bit too well. Some of you should open your minds and let them run free from the restraints of whatever style.


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## white dragon

My turn to say A-men! I've thought of comparing some people to the "Cobra-Kai" a few times but thought I'd just get a load of backlash  But jeeezus saying "that's not tkd, so I didn't expect it" what kind of instructor is that?


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## Klondike93

Some out there are rather opinionated about the lack of ability of TKD people because of how quickley some get black belts there.
I'm a TKD black belt learning kenpo and enjoying it tremendously.



> When the instructors asked me if I've studied MA before, I told them I teach TKD, then each one of them (different people at different times) all laughed at me. I couldn't stay at a Kenpo school longer than a month, as they would always crack jokes and mock my art. I've also visited about 5 more schools just browsings, and most of them said they hate TKD.



If that's the way they treat you then they don't deserve your buisness or anyone else's for that matter, I think that's being a jerk.

Most of the kenpo schools I've been to have been happy to have me, and never gave me any crap about TKD. (maybe they know if they did, I'd kick 'em in the head, hard):rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 


:asian:


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## Ty K. Doe

Are any of you familiar with Han Min Kyo's system of TKD.  I'm not sure if it's a franchise or what but I'm always seeing Master Han's Martial Arts signs.  There are several of these schools in Missouri.  Not sure how far spread they are across the country.  After observing some of the students that come out of a few of the schools that I know, I can see why people from other styles would mouth off on TKD.  Their students test every month.


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## karatekid1975

Ok, I have to admit it (hangs her head in shame). I used to hate TKD also. Don't get me wrong, I had friends who took it and I never put them down. But I'm the type who got into martial arts for self defense, and TKD is a sport (mainly). I study TKD now. I gripe cause they don't teach enough self defense, but it's not required till green belt (I think).

But I "woke up." You're right, Thunder Foot. TKD being the under dog lately, I want to defend my new art. Some TKD schools are black belt mills and give the rest of us a bad name, but not every TKD school is like that. My school gives you a choice to study the "art" part of TKD, or sport or both, which is really cool. And it is soooooo hard to get a BB in this school (according to the people who just tested for 1st degree). Some failed for little things, some failed for not trying (acting like they didn't want to be there and griping the whole time).


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## Damian Mavis

That is exactly how I teach my TKD school.  My poor students think that Tae Kwon Do involves so many ranges!  Actually thats a joke...I always give credit to other martial arts when I teach my students something outside the regular art of TKD.  TKD is primarily kicking and punching so when I teach the elbows, headbutts and groin kicks or grappling I always tell them what art it's from and even who taught it to me.

Martial arts are about combat, plain and simple.  It's nice to have sport and spirituality in martial arts but the primary focus should be survival.  Survival with a moral and ethical foundation.  I can't stand the thought of one of my students learning every dirty technique in the book only to use it for an evil purpose.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Drunken Master

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *TKD is primarily kicking and punching so when I teach the elbows, headbutts and groin kicks or grappling I always tell them what art it's from and even who taught it to me.
> 
> Damian Mavis
> Honour TKD *



Is that not over simplifying Taekwon-Do.  Below is an example of parts of the body we use in our ITF Taekwon-Do techniques;

Fore Fist
Back Fist
Side Fist
Open Fist
Long Fist
Under Fist
Thumb Knuckle
Fore Knuckle
Middle Knuckle Fist
Knifehand
Reverse Knifehand
Fingertips
Flat Fingertip
Angle Fingertip
Double Finger
Palm sonbadak 
Arc-Hand
Elbow
Footsword
Front Sole
Back Heel
Instep
Reverse Footsword

Although our instructor only teaches movements and techniques in the Taekwon-Do Encyclopaedia as written by General Choi, Hong Hi our instructor is happy for us to also attend other style classes.


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## Damian Mavis

I don't include what we do in patterns as to what is involved in TKD.  We do all kinds of interesting things in patterns and then never learn them for real.  If you instructor is teaching some more interesting things other than kicking and punching then....guess what!  haha  He's different than most TKD instructors and you are lucky.  Surely you realise that the program at your TKD school is not the same as the program at another TKD school?  I have never seen a TKD instructor teach those techniques from the encyclopedia. In my city I am the ONLY instructor who teaches TKD the way I do, the other 100 schools all teach tradtitional TKD with a little self defence thrown in.  I think your getting something extra at your school and thats good!

Traditionally TKD is kicking and punching (ITF), class would be 50 minutes of kicking and punching with maybe some time put aside for self defence but not usually.

Your school sounds fun, good luck with your training

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Battousai

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *In my city I am the ONLY instructor who teaches TKD the way I do, the other 100 schools all teach tradtitional TKD with a little self defence thrown in.
> *



 Finding anything good with the label TKD is like a finding a needle in a haystack. Average TKD is worthless for anything besides aerobics. Maybe one school in a hundred has something to offer someone interested in self defense and not sport fighting.

Thats why anyone who does TKD is suspect of not knowing the difference between real martial arts and a hole in the ground. "Suspect," because from these accounts I will concede that maybe TKD as a real martial art exists somewhere out there.

 Where ever these real TKD schools are, they should drop the normal TKD name, get some different name, because the TKD name is smeared in the mud. Drop out of these money grubbing organizations, ITF, WTF, and become independant. 

 What these fake TKD schools do that is a blatent lie is to advertise sport fighting as self defense. Their curiculum is tournament fighting, with a side of inferior self defense thrown in as an afterthought. Yet that which accounts maybe 5 to 10 percent of their teaching they advertise as if that was the whole of what they teach. 
 If they just dropped the self defense label, and advertised "sport fighting" or something like that as what they teach, I would have no problem with them.
 I stipulate that these fake TKD schools, taebo and such programs have some inherit qualities that relate to self defense, punching, kicking and so on. But the set of things that relate to self defense includes ballet, weight lifting, distance running, acrobatics, beijing opera, etc, etc. Even Jackie Chan when talking about his training in beijing opera clearly states that it is not a martial art, that martial arts training was something he did after his original martial arts movies seemed popular. 
 It is clear that many things relate to self defense and improve a person's health and ability to defend themself, but none of these things actually call themselves self defense and advertise as if they were for self defense.


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## Pyrael

well said


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## Damian Mavis

Yes they are few and far between, and I'm not saying that just to make myslef look good.  I've seen several good TKD schools.....but theres alot of crap out there unfortunately that gives all TKD a bad name.  The same can be said for karate and even kung fu now.  You don't see it as much in the other 2 because it's a numbers game.  There are way way more TKD schools than karate and way more karate schools than kung fu.  So you see less crap schools from the other 2 arts but only cause there's less of them.  I base this opinion on having taken the time to visit many martial arts schools of various arts.  You would be horrified to see the stuff alot of places pass of as self defence.  Completely unrealistic and dangerous.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Hollywood1340

Thought I would throw my thoughts out on the issue. Every art has it's place. For me personally, my Hapkido and Taekwondo are my standing techniques, my Judo is transition, and it's jujitsu from there. It's easy as a martial artist to be just a karateka, kenpoist, taekata, or judoka. I lurk on several martial message boards, and see "Kenpo is a slap art, utterly worthless" or "TKD, what a joke". It's very easy to say that from the sidelines. I know I've been guilty of it at one time or another. 
Then you hang around a kenpo school and you FEEL the way those "slaps" leave you utterly helpless. Or receive a side-kick from a TKD 5th dan that sends you across the dojang. This is it kiddies!
My judo instructor, a 5th Dan was explaining to me how sport develops an athlete. Through the application of sport to any discipline you develop speed, timing, and strength. These are essential not just in the ring, but in the "real world" as well. And that is where sport has it's place. 
It's so often I find that people are of one mind set or the other. I.E. It's either a martial art or crap, or it's a martial sport or crap. Why not differentiate between the two and give them their rightful place? 
Take TKD for instance. TKD is a very competetive and sometimes brutal sport. Five kicks in mid air, all landing at full power takes years of dedicated training and disciplined regime common to all martial endeavors, no matter what they may be. The prowess and physical condition of these athletes attest to this regime. Who is anybody to say they are "wimps?" I speak from experience when I say "Those who look down on TKD sparring, have never truly TKD sparred"
On the other foot (pun intended) you have self-defensive arts, Hapkido, Ken(m)po, Aikido. I'm no great authority on these, but they to the same extent have dedicated training and a disciplined regime as well. I'll take my hat off to just about any member of a martial art any day, because I belive it is not my place to say otherwise.
I guess my point is learn about other arts, and understand the place they occupy. It may not be the place you occupy in the martial scheme of things, but it's important none the less.


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## Pyrael

for those who have their respectful doubts, would or have you questioned your tkd teacher for the effectiveness of tkd by challenging them in a full contact no rules fight?  it would be interesting to see a "movie style" match between a student who is a mixed martial artist againts a tkd master. call this audatious but this is a question that popped into my head ever since this idea was brought up.  

but for those tkd _masters_, i respect their credentials and believe that their long commitment to martial arts would determine the outcome of such a challenge to their favor.:asian:


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## Hollywood1340

They are smart enough to cross-train in something else. My sabum does it all. CDT, Krav Maga, CHKD, Judo in addition to his TKD. He's been there, done that. His favorite saying is "Why have the sport when you can have the real thing?". But since we speak hypotheticaly...I'd have to say it's not the art, but the fighter. There are taekwondo guys who will hand you your head if you mix it up with them, simply because of pure speed and power. Remember kiddies, TKD is full contact, full speed at the elite levels. So I'm officaly declaring it a draw. Second opinions anyone?


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Hollywood1340 _
> 
> *CDT, Krav Maga, CHKD*



What are CDT and CHKD?


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## Hollywood1340

Sir,
 CDT=Control, Direction, Takedown
About CDT Not my school, but only thing I could find quickly. It REALLY hurts.
CHKD=Combat Hapkdio
Combat Hapkido
Hope that helps!


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## Bob Hubbard

I think you folks have summed it up pretty good.  Its not the "Art" its the "Implementation".

I've done Kenpo, Modern Arnis, Wing Chun and a bit of Tai Chi and JKD.

I've side-line analyzed em all, and 'seen the holes'.

Well, for all the folks who say WC isn't any good, I have yet to get through my Sifu's defences.  His 1" punch bounced me off a wall 6 feet away.

I've felt the "slaps" from the Kenpo guys....all I can say was "nice ceiling, needs some paint". 

etc. etc.

I think it comes down to if you have quality instruction + lots of practice + dedication, allmost any art will give you the tools to good defence.


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## Pyrael

> _Originally posted by Hollywood1340 _
> 
> *They are smart enough to cross-train in something else. My sabum does it all. CDT, Krav Maga, CHKD, Judo in addition to his TKD. He's been there, done that. His favorite saying is "Why have the sport when you can have the real thing?". But since we speak hypotheticaly...I'd have to say it's not the art, but the fighter. There are taekwondo guys who will hand you your head if you mix it up with them, simply because of pure speed and power. Remember kiddies, TKD is full contact, full speed at the elite levels. So I'm officaly declaring it a draw. Second opinions anyone? *



shoulda been more specific...i see there are those tkd practicioners that will "hand you your head," and i agree. but i was pointing to the masters who are at the end of all the insults; the ones who "water it down." 

not the art but the fighter...true but im narrowing it to the art for the purpose to see if the mcdojo's particularly the tkd ones have a respectable master of the art theyre teaching which is the one that makes people "mouth off tkd"

"remember kiddies"... why do you say that?


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## Pyrael

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> 
> *I've felt the "slaps" from the Kenpo guys....all I can say was "nice ceiling, needs some paint". *



:rofl:


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## Hollywood1340

Um..to tell you the truth, I don't know why. Considering the fact I'm not yet old enough to drink alcohol here in the US...yeah. Anywho. It's just my phrase, kinda like how I scream "MARSHMALLOW GEODUCK ©" before I jump into any body of water. So remember kiddies ©!
Hollywood


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Hollywood1340 _
> 
> * CDT=Control, Direction, Takedown
> About CDT Not my school, but only thing I could find quickly. It REALLY hurts.
> CHKD=Combat Hapkdio
> Combat Hapkido
> *



Thanks! The CDT program looks interesting.


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## Rob_Broad

Why does everybody mouth off on TKD?  Becasue it is so easy to.:rofl: :rofl:


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## Chiduce

Glad i learned from a good TKD Sifu. He is still doing tournaments, still winning, teaching internal systems and teaching the handicapped. Sorta a  traditional guy! Ive worked out with the iron rings, kicked between lines, barriers etc, aligator walked and duck walked etc,. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## ThuNder_FoOt

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> 
> *Why does everybody mouth off on TKD?  Becasue it is so easy to.:rofl: :rofl: *



Its a same to hear martial minds speak in such a manner. TKD is just as inefficient as the next martial art. Every art will have schools that represent the art poorly. .. just as every art will produce exceptionally talented students. "Its not the art, but its practioner", as this has been stated a million times before, and will probably continue until the end of time.

I believe the degree of efficiency comes from the relationship of master to student. Whether it be a poor student/poor master or good master/good student, each one has an effect on the other depending on the depth of the relationship. I know when I see my students whom genuinely  wish to learn everything they can about MA, it motivates me to learn more so that I may better prepare my students for any situation... and the reverse can be said. 

I hope some of you can understand what I'm trying to express here. I feel its the most important factor in training, maybe I wasn't descriptive enough. :asian: :asian:


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## Bob Hubbard

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> 
> *Why does everybody mouth off on TKD?  Becasue it is so easy to.:rofl: :rofl: *



A lot of people might agree.  I hear very little knocking on Krav Magra, or Systema. (sp?).  Of course, In Buffalo, theres only 1 school for KM, none for sys, and over a dozen for TKD.  1 of the TKD schools is next door to a cafe I frequent.  The other day, they were doing sparing.  All I can say is, it looked pretty good to me through the window.

Its easy to knock the popular, or the successful.  Its harder to knock the unknown.  Everyone shoots on Microsoft Windows.  Whos picking on OS-2? Its still out there. *shrug*

Every art has its fakers and frauds.  and every art has its stars.

I could go on a nice tear on how crappy Karate is based on my experiences there, but I know better, as I've since learned from real instructors. 

Its all about where you are, and what you want. Some TKD schools are sports oriented, others teach real defence, some neither, some both and some just are.  

I think unless we have actually gone to a particular school, its really hard to access the quality of instruction.  There are a few exceptions to this of course (Chung Moo for example).

:asian:


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## arnisador

Well put Kaith. We have to remember that one will see many more _bad_ TKD schools because there are som many more TKD schools! Even if it was the same percentage as bad karate schools you'd still see a higher _number_ of bad TKD schools.

Given the strong relationship between TKD and Japanese karate, to bash one is to a certain extent to bash the other. I've seen many bad TKD _schools_ but let's separate that from the _art_ of TKD itself!


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## karatekid1975

Amen Arnisador and Kaith


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## ThuNder_FoOt

Alot of people seem to think that Krav Maga is effective just for the simple fact that its a Military art. Well, TKD is a military art as well. Both Korea and the Republic of China use TKD to teach self-defense techniques to their military forces. 

There do seem to be more TKD schools around, than any other MA. I could see how there would be more bad TKD schools. BUt I don't think this applies, because for the higher number of bad TKD schools, there would also be a higher number of good tkd schools...saying the number would be higher than any other MA. 

Why does everyone say sport TKD isn't effective?? Can one not take Boxing skills and use them in a real-life situation? Boxing is a sport just like TKD (an olympic sport to boot!), and many people seem to think its effective outside of the ring. There is no difference.  *Just because one limits himself in the ring, doesn't mean one will also limit himself out of the ring.*  Sport TKD can be applied to real-life situations just like sport Boxing. The same can be said about Kickboxing and Muay Thai as they are both sports. Will a MT person not kick to the groin in self-defense if the situation calls for it? Its amusing to see how some people become hypocritical in this way, boxing but not TKD.


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## Battousai

Well from what I know boxing is taught in a gym, and if it is taught it's taught by a personel trainer. TKD is taught in a dojo, where people come to learn what supposedly is a martial art. People usually don't think of boxing as a martial art, because there's alot more to a martial art then winning matches. Yet TKD schools that only teach how to win tournaments act as if they are a martial art and teach all the things that a martial art teaches, which they don't. They teach sport fighting, with little if any emphasis on self defense outside of tournament settings.

 I say sport TKD is not effective simply because it creates a false mind set about self defense, it teaches and uses techniques that would be utterly ridculous in real life situations. 

 Something thats said in my dojo is that you need to put in 110% into the training, because in real life you would be lucky to be able to do something 60% as well as in the class. Self defense is not something thats easy to learn, it takes years and years. Yet here we have these schools teaching sport, saying that its self defense. It just makes it that much harder to learn real self defense. We have schools that are dedicated to real life self defense that spend 100% of their time teaching self defense, and at that rate it takes years to really get a grip on anything, and then we have schools that barely give the students 10% of their class time on self defense, yet claim to be as good for self defense as the schools that teach it 100% of the time. Thats nonsense. 

 If its sport, it should be advertised as such.


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## Pyrael

> _Originally posted by Battousai _
> 
> *I say sport TKD is not effective simply because it creates a false mind set about self defense, it teaches and uses techniques that would be utterly ridculous in real life situations.
> *



well its obvious that you and others can see the defining line of sport and development of personal ambitions (self defence, practical combat strength etc).  if you can see flaws, then correct them. can't? then avoid them. dont waste time on what you dont think you can benefit from ie sport fighting. tkd not effective? no. why? because i can move so fast that my opponent wouldnt notice the butterfly kick to his or her face. i learned a great deal and this art isnt bull.  false mindset? we see the evidence but like i said, you know what they are and deal with them.  just follow your gut.:asian:


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## Pyrael

heheh i just turned to a yellow belt


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## Damian Mavis

Keepin it real!

I think if a TKD artist keeps it real in his head and trains for the street and not for tournaments then he is doing ok.  From the beginning I trained for the street, I never cared how I fared at a tournament even though I did well; every technique I threw I though of its real life applications and decided what I wouldn't use in a fight.  When I started teaching I wanted to teach a fighting art, not a sport.  So when we do our techniques it's with the sole purpose of surviving a fight on the street and all my students understand that.  Yes we learn techniques that aren't street oriented but I tell them each and every time we do that it's not safe for the street.  I also teach them gymnastics and that has nothing to do with the street but its fun!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## karatekid1975

Amen Damian! I do the same thing when I learn or do a technique. I think about what works in real life while I do each technique, even step sparring. I turn it into a real fight situation in my head, and aim for pressure points, ect. High kicks are fun, and I love doing them, but when I do step sparring, self defense, ect. I don't do them. I keep the kicks low and use more hand tichniques.


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## gaille

Ty K. Doe: your avatar reminds me of something !!!


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## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by gaille _
> 
> *Ty K. Doe: your avatar reminds me of something !!! *


 Great Site; I will visit again! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Ty K. Doe

> Great Site; I will visit again! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!
> 
> In response to:
> 
> Originally posted by gaille
> 
> Ty K. Doe: your avatar reminds me of something !!!



Huh?



> Originally posted by gaille
> Ty K. Doe: your avatar reminds me of something !!!



I'm glad you like it.  I do.  I'll change it if you want me to.


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## Ty K. Doe

Isn't it considered defense when your able to keep somebody from hurting you if you can keep them away by using any kind of kick?  Or being able to pinpoint openings on a persons body and attack the crap out of them to keep them from attacking the crap out of you?  Isn't it defense if you can keep an attacker from getting you on the ground either by feet or fist?

Wasn't General Choi chosen to head up the development of a TKD system because of his military experience and background and his martial arts background, having the knowledge to know what is practicle for fighting and defensive techniques in battle?  Isn't battle a life or death situation?  So wouldn't TKD be effective enough?

It's just like anything else, don't judge something solely based on the worst that's seen.  The judgement should be made on the whatever level has produced the best level of achievement.  I'm a school teacher so I'll use this analogy.  If I have 5 classes a day, one class produces nothing above a C average, but the other four produces a B average and above, you wouldn't judge my overall teaching affectiveness based on the below average class.  The fact is the class is probably loaded with students with below average abillities.  Or a below average desire to succeed.  So you don't judge something based on its worst, but on its best, most effective.  That is what demonstrates what it is capable of.


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## Battousai

> _Originally posted by Ty K. Doe _
> 
> *Isn't it considered defense when your able to keep somebody from hurting you if you can keep them away by using any kind of kick?  Or being able to pinpoint openings on a persons body and attack the crap out of them to keep them from attacking the crap out of you?  Isn't it defense if you can keep an attacker from getting you on the ground either by feet or fist?
> *



 Yes I think it would be considered self defense. But I don't think that the AVERAGE TKD student, black belt even, can do these things. I was an average TKD student long ago and I couldn't do jack.



> _Originally posted by Ty K. Doe _
> 
> *Wasn't General Choi chosen to head up the development of a TKD system because of his military experience and background and his martial arts background, having the knowledge to know what is practicle for fighting and defensive techniques in battle?  Isn't battle a life or death situation?  So wouldn't TKD be effective enough?
> *



 I know nothing of this General Choi, and neither does the average TKD instructor know anything of his teachings if he was so great. 



> _Originally posted by Ty K. Doe _
> 
> *It's just like anything else, don't judge something solely based on the worst that's seen.  The judgement should be made on the whatever level has produced the best level of achievement.  I'm a school teacher so I'll use this analogy.  If I have 5 classes a day, one class produces nothing above a C average, but the other four produces a B average and above, you wouldn't judge my overall teaching affectiveness based on the below average class.  The fact is the class is probably loaded with students with below average abillities.  Or a below average desire to succeed.  So you don't judge something based on its worst, but on its best, most effective.  That is what demonstrates what it is capable of. *



 I'm not judging TKD on the worst I've seen, I'm judging it on the grounds of the best I've seen, which is almost equal to the worst I've seen. 

 Maybe the good TKD instructors out there can teach the self defense you talked about and know the cool stuff this General Choi must of taught, I'm not arguing differently.

 I say that the average TKD student, the average TKD instructor, doesn't know jack about self defense.

 What I'm saying is the majority, I estimate 95 percent of TKD (that which takes the name TKD), is worthless for self defense. 

 I totally stipulate everyones points for TKD, you all must have good instructors from good schools. 

 However my point is simply that the majority of all that which passes for TKD is defication.


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## Hollywood1340

"I say that the average TKD student, the average TKD instructor, doesn't know jack about self defense. " 
Their IQ vs. Rock
Advantage? Rock. Actually and unfair advantage I'd say. How much TKD have you seen? How many instructors have you talked to? I'll tell you what, stop by my school sometime and we'll chat I can't wait!


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## Damian Mavis

"I know nothing of this General Choi, and neither does the average TKD instructor know anything of his teachings if he was so great."

Battoussai.... I agree with alot of what you say and I'm a TKD instructor myself.  BUT You say you were in TKD and you don't know the name of the founder?  That was a little odd..... even in WTF I think they at least hear the name of of the man who created the term "Tae Kwon Do".  And in ITF EVERYONE knows the name General Choi, especially instructors.

So I'm assuming that you were in a WTF school which would explain not knowing the name General Choi since he is the head of ITF and alot of WTF people probably don't credit him with founding TKD and that's fine.  But if you were WTF...surely you know that ITF and WTF are fairly different?  ITF is much more realistic than WTF for street defence and yet it is still by itself not great for self defence.  WTF barely punches at all and that's to the torso only, ITF uses any hand technique and kick from the waist up.  That gives it an advantage over WTF for streetworthiness but..... if you train in either of those federations and only do the kickboxing aspect than it's very limitted in it's street defence applications.  That is why in my class we spend half the time doing traditional TKD (ITF style) and the other half of the class doing knees, elbows, headbutts, eye gouging, groin strikes, take down's, weaponry and submission grappling.

Anyway...just thought it wierd you were in TKD and didn't know who created the name TKD.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Klondike93

Those sound like fun classes Damian   


:asian:


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## gaille

Ty K. Doe: no you can keep it, no problem.

I think Chiduce was refering to my web site you can access by clicking the "www" on the left side of the window in any of my post.


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## Battousai

Ya I was in TKD for a year. I don't even know if it was a WTF of ITF school, it was never spoken of at all. I could go dig up some old certificate stuff and find out I guess, I remember getting some paper thing with the federation seal on it.

 That would be cool Hollywood, too bad we are in cyberspace though. Montana is a little far away physically 
 I've seen every TKD school in my city, Ft. Collins. At least I had at one point, lots more have poped up I suppose as others die off.


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## deadhand31

> ITF is much more realistic than WTF for street defence and yet it is still by itself not great for self defence. WTF barely punches at all and that's to the torso only, ITF uses any hand technique and kick from the waist up. That gives it an advantage over WTF for streetworthiness




From my experience, you really can't claim that. I've seen posts on this subject that have been contradicted. I've been to a colleague's ITF school, and everything negative said about the WTF rings true for them. His school claims to be strict ITF under General Choi. Their belts have the yellow roman numerals, school name, and student name. They learn to fight with their arms at their sides, and throw no punches. 

However, I learn at a WTF school. While we do have the belts with the yellow bars and names, we learn to fight with our hands up. We punch. In competition sparring we don't punch to the head, but for sreetfighting's sake we learn how to. 


You have to be careful. You really can't tout "my organization is better than yours." That would just be giving in to more of those $#@*@ politics that exist in the martial arts world.


:soapbox:


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## karatekid1975

Amen, Deadhand!

My school is WTF. We learn all kinds of hand techniques. I was complaining about my school at first because I thought there wasn't enough self defense being taught. WRONG! It's not required till green belt, but then you get all the self defense your little brain can remember.

As far as sparring goes, I heard a rumor that the WTF is changing the rules as far as hand contact to the head. Anyone hear about this?


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## Damian Mavis

No no Deadhand31, I wasn't saying my organisation was better than yours... I could be part of the WWF wrestling federation I really don't care about organisation.  All I said was ITF had a small advantage over WTF for street worthiness.  That is just one aspect of the 2 styles... you don't see ITF in the olympics do you?  Obviously WTF has some advantages in other areas.  

As for the ITF school that spars with no hands...well like everyones already posted theres always going to be bad schools out there that do a disservice to the martial arts everywere.  

If your WTF school is training in boxing to supplement its self defence aspects than lucky you!  I didn't base my observations on watching the olympics....I go out and fight WTF guys all the time.  They never use their hands and they always get caught off guard with punches to their face....I don't state an opinion unless I've actually tested it out in combat.  Out of the 20 or so WTF schools I've visited NONE use hand techniques. You are lucky to go to a WTF school that trains the way it does...but that makes you a minority in WTF.

So I hope you don't think I'm bashing one organisation over the other....my god I train in several martial arts, do you know the attitude I get from the Muay Thai academy?  They think all TKD and karate everywere is a joke.  So no, I'm not saying one style of TKD is better than the other, I was just pointing out the differences as they relate to street defence.  One art is always going to have an advantage over another depending on how they train.  It's up to individual schools like yours and mine to not stick to the traditional way and prepare it's students for the street.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


----------



## Klondike93

> _Originally posted by Battousai _
> 
> *Ya I was in TKD for a year. I don't even know if it was a WTF of ITF school, it was never spoken of at all. I could go dig up some old certificate stuff and find out I guess, I remember getting some paper thing with the federation seal on it.
> 
> That would be cool Hollywood, too bad we are in cyberspace though. Montana is a little far away physically
> I've seen every TKD school in my city, Ft. Collins. At least I had at one point, lots more have poped up I suppose as others die off. *



Do you remember the name of the school, living in denver prehaps Iv'e heard of it.

Me I was in the ITF, err I guess I still am being a member for life and all.

:asian:


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## arnisador

Here's a book that, to my mind, contributes to the negative stereotypes about TKD:

Black Belt Tae Kwon Do : The Ultimate Reference Guide to the World's Most Popular Black Belt Martial Art by Yeon Hwan Park and Jon Gerrard.

Not only is it the case that I have never heard an art other than TKD referred to as a "Black Belt Martial Art" but in addition this book (which is for WTF students) dedicates one of its eight chapters to "Opening Your Own School" including marketing and such. It seems to put the focus on obtaining the black belt then opening one's own school--the franchise/McDojo idea. I own the book--it's a nice refernce for the forms--but it sends the wrong message I think.


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## karatekid1975

Hiya Arnis.

I have that book too. I never thought of it that way, and I have to agree.


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## ThuNder_FoOt

I unfortunatley agree Arnis. I also have the book in my collection, and I was confused in reading that part. It does promote the McDojo theory..... argh.


----------



## TKDblackbelt251

I can understand why some people THINK that taekwondo is stupid and that most schools are just belt factories...BUT there are many good schools out there....at my school it takes more than 4 yrs to get a black belt. I am 15 and have a second degree black belt and many people seem to find this to be horrible BUT i cant even tell you how many adult womens championships ive won at open tournaments....so me, a 15 yrs old black belt can beat the 20 and 30 yr old black belts. Ive also had the comments about how a 15 yr old cannot have the discipline or the knowlege to have a black belt....but these people dont know me. ive been studying tkd for 10 of my 15 yrs and yea when i was 6 i didnt understand the philosophy but think of how knowlegable i will be by the time im 20! ive worked extremely EXTREMELY hard for my rank and im proud of it...so when people put it down its like puttin down my whole life...i feel like i earned it! One more thing....traditional TKD schools like mine arent like WTF and ITF . We learn TKD (the way of the foot and the hand) meaning we learn with BOTH our HANDS and our FEET and in addition we learn hapkido/kumdo/yudo and some weapons. Dont put down an intire art because of some bad school....and like someone else said.....most of my friends have NEVER lost to someone from Karate...BUT im sure that there are many great karate school!


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## MTisGreat

i downloaded a vid from kazaa and saw Muay Thai vs TKD and the tkd guy got his *** kicked seious style. the thing about tkd is that the training is tooo much on the abstract side


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## Damian Mavis

Unless its a different video than what I saw the TKD artist got his butt kicked because he had no defence for leg kicks and was knocked on his *** over and over.  Same thing would have happened to any art that doesnt throw full contact kicks to the leg regularly to develop good reflexes and defences for leg kicks.  Not trying to defend TKD against Muay Thai, just poining out that karate, kung fu and other arts have all fallen prey to Muay Thais leg kicks over and over.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## cdhall

My 2 cents.

When I signed up Sifu joked about TKD (someone in here has a Sifu at his TKD schoo BTW.  This is suspicious.  TKD is Korean right?  Sifu is a Chinese term.  What do you call a traditional TKD teacher?  Sensei?  Is that Japanese?  My Sifu was teaching "Chinese Kenpo."  My teacher now is referred to as Mr. or Sir.). I think the primary reason was because of its popularity and it's success as a McDojo.  McDojo meaning that they are everywhere, successful in business and probably sacrificing too much on quality in favor of gaining market share.

I also worked with a 2nd Degree Black Belt Olympic Alernate to the US TKD team.  There were some Martial Artists at work and we would talk at lunch etc.  One day this guy said that he would be afraid to use TKD in the street because he is so used to "Tag" that he knew he'd back off after a "point" and get killed.

Since Kenpo has a diametrically opposed focus, TKD is a logical target for Kenpo guys.  BTW, there are plenty of Kenpo guys who will tell you that other Kenpo guys suck, so don't think there is a unified effort of Kenpo guys vs TKD.  I think that when Kenpo started as a franchise, TKD was very popular and successful in the tournament circuit and had more press... and therefore made it hard to launch a Kenpo school.  Just a guess.  I think it is true that TKD took over the midwest and Texas in particular early on and I think famous guys like Skipper Mullins were TKD guys so TKD was the King of the Mountain and the logical target for anyone wanting to become King of the Mountain.

It is a testament to TKD success that so many people shoot at it.  Like someone said earlier, who picks on OS2 instead of Microsoft?  What would you gain by comparing yourself to an obscure competitor.  The TKD bashing is mostly business motivated.

Finally, I will say that I have an invitation to go spar at a TKD school (actually they say they are Tex-Kwon Do  ) which is run by a Very successful tournament champion.  The first night I was there, I sparred with the champ and he threw a spinning Axe/Crescent kick off his Supporting Rear Leg (where his weight was) and hit me in the side of the nose right at the corner of my eye. He moved so fast, and hit with such precision that it was obvious he had total mastery of this move. He didn't hurt me at all.  Not even a mark, but my nose "crunched" and I was afraid I'd had it when he hit me.  

Later he and one of his students were going at it harder and he did the same or a similar kick to his student while at close range.  It turned his students headgear 90degrees and he had to grab him to keep him standing.

A good TKD guy can kill you with some goofy kick that a lot of Kenpo guys won't be trained to respond to.  They are dangerous.

That is my 2 cents.  I don't know anything about ITF/WTF (how does this relate to Jhoon Rhee?) but I know that TKD people are generally more acrobatic, and the ones that train hard are scary.

By the same token I think they do/did neglect the hands and Kenpo prides itself on hands and on using multiple ranges, sometimes in the same defense sequence, so this is just something else to make fun of.  Again, business motivated.  At camps and so on you will hear good instructors and fighters continually emphasize that every style deserves some respect.
:asian:


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## sweeper

I'm not involved in either art, but it seems that a good portion of the pro/con arguements involving TKD are Kempo vs TKD. is this beacause of the practitioners on this board or do TKD/kempo guys fued more than other arts?


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## Danny

Must be the board, becuase I've been in TKD almost 10 years and I have never even heard of Kenpo outside of this message board.


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## Damian Mavis

I had never heard of kenpo either.  Who the heck are these crazy kenpo guys anyway? haha.

The name in korean for a TKD instructor is Sabunim.  So a Sifu at a TKD scholl does seem pretty weird.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## kenpo_jeff

Guys,

There is no ongoing fued between TKD and Kenpo. What you are seeing is the immaturity of a few practitioners on both sides. This is nothing more than a testament of how poorly their attitudes really are.

This happens alot because of the secretive nature of the internet, noone really knows who you are so people say just about anything and get away with it.

Coming from one who has studied both arts for many years, I can tell you that both are quite similar regarding technique, but the methods of teaching, what is being taught, and the purpose of the instruction is quite different.

Most (not all) TKD schools are teaching "sport" TKD. This is not to say that they completely ignore self-defense techniques or that their art is worthless. The difference is when the instructor does not teach the students the differences between "sport" and "street" techniques.

Kenpo, on the other hand, trains mostly in practical self-defense techniques. This is not to say that a kenpo fighter would not be good in a tournament, again it simply depends on how you are being trained.

Personally, I teach a mixture of TKD and Kenpo. My beginning students learn the basic stances and techniques of TKD. When they are ready (depends on the individual student), I also teach them Kenpo and we learn the myriad of Kenpo self-defense techniques. I also teach my students to respect themselves, their instructors, and other styles. 

Salute


----------



## karatekid1975

I totally agree, Jeff. 

I do TKD, and I've done TSD. Both of my dojangs (schools) teaches/taught everything from self defense to sport. But they also tell you the difference. My old instructor says something like "This move is great in competetion, but it'll get you killed in the street" when he teaches. He'll let you know the difference between self defense and "sport" type stuff. 

Someone esle mentioned Muay Thai kicks, and I have to agree with that somewhat. My TSD instructor taught us Muay Thai kicks. I love them. Very effective, and powerful. In self defense, I'd use them over TKD kicks, but some TKD kicks, if done right, can also be effective. You have to know when and where to use them. 

As far as TKD and hand techniques, we learn them. The schools that teach only "sport" don't. Because hand tech's to the head aren't allowed. In TSD tournies, they are. So, even if I do TKD, I'd join a TSD tourny so I can do what I'm used to (using hand techs as well as kicks). But some TKD tournies do allow hands, but it's rare from what I've seen.


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## kenpo_jeff

Hi Laurie,

It sounds like you have a great instructor. Believe me, they are getting fewer and harder to find  

BTW: There is a great article in the current Black Belt magazine discussing some Korean low kicks. 

Taekwon,


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## Damian Mavis

I was serious when I said I had never heard of Kenpo, so when I ask who are these crazy kenpo guys its because I think its crazy to have a fued with another art heh.  

Just a little word of advice to the new people on this board.  Before you post about peoples attitudes and make assumptions, read about them and read their previous posts.  Maybe even check their profile.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## ThuNder_FoOt

I believe some of the posts in this thread seem to be a little biased towards Kenpo. Both arts are great, and have the potential to be exceptional, depending on the practioner.

In reference to the Kenpo/Kempo vs. TKD discussion... I have experienced such tension as a TKD player, from Kenpo students, masters, etc... as I have seen the reverse from cocky TKD players to respectful Kenpo players. I don't believe this "feud" goes for the arts as a whole, however the immaturity does exist.  It has even been televised. An example of a movie...  Jeff Speakman's "_The Perfect Weapon_ ", great movie I might add. 

Just to clarify, i don't think anyone can say that any "One" art focuses solely on a particular aspect of training. This would be due to the fact that there will always be exceptions to any style.

It's very disappointing to hear the infamous Art "A" has advantages over Art "B". Thats like trying to generalize "Night is better than Day". Advantages and disadvantages of any style are ALL equal, therefore nullifying all..... until the varible of a practioner is added. I believe one is not a martial artist until this is realized. :asian: :asian:


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## kenpo_jeff

Damian:

Nothing was directed at you, and FYI, I have read many a post on this topic. Both in this forum and the Kenpo forum, and what I have seen is disheartening. 

So, just because I may not have posted in the past, I am entitled as much to my opinion as you are yours.

Taekwon,


----------



## karatekid1975

Hiya, Jeff.

Yes, I just picked that issue of Black Belt up tonight. I will definitely read it. Thanks 

As far as TKD and Kenpo, I don't bash other arts. I'm actually interested in a few others (including Kenpo). I'm not bias at all. Why should I bash an art I never tried? Right? I know it wasn't directed at me, but I was using myself as an example. I enjoy watching other arts. Everytime I do, I learn something.


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## Damian Mavis

"So, just because I may not have posted in the past, I am entitled as much to my opinion as you are yours."

Where did you get that I didnt think you were entitled to your opinion?  You seem to have some negativity about all this and I don't understand why at all.  I have absolutely no bias about any traditional martial art because to me they are all lumped into the same category : a traditional martial art.  Some are taught by good instructors and some are not.  Has nothing to do with the art itself.  All styles of Kung fu, karate, TKD etc are pretty much the same to me.  How they are taught can make a huge difference though.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Danny

> It's very disappointing to hear the infamous Art "A" has advantages over Art "B". Thats like trying to generalize "Night is better than Day". Advantages and disadvantages of any style are ALL equal, therefore nullifying all..... until the varible of a practioner is added. I believe one is not a martial artist until this is realized.



I disagree.  All arts are not created equal.  Certainly a good instructor, and dedicated students certainly make the vast majority of difference in any art, but some are just better then others for given purposes.


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## Kempojujutsu

Before I get to involved in this story, I do want to say I have done TKD before, and I have work with some TKD people also. And I can say I am glad I don't do it any more. Any way I went to TKD Demostration the other night to see what was so great about it. There where kids and adults and many black belts also. Complaint No. 1 I saw a boy around 8-10 years old at 7th degree Black Belt. He was good but not a 7th degree black belt. May after another 20 years of training.

Complaint No.2  Almost every one that went through their forms, look like they had just learn it. There was no power in the movements, they pause and seem to forget what they where doing and this was the black belts.

Complaint No.3 On the Self Defense If you want to call it that. they would just stick their arm out for a punch and one girl walk right into it. Good think it was just stuck out there. The same thing was true for their Knife defense.

This was again an ATA Tae Kwon Do School, and most people I have talk to say they SUCK. But they give all you other TKD'ers out there a BAD NAME.
Bob    :asian:


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## Pyrael

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> 
> *Complaint No. 1 I saw a boy around 8-10 years old at 7th degree Black Belt.  *



wtf? holy ****...i've havent seen something like that ever!  it seems that money determines what color your belt is.  but surely it doesnt determine the fighter within.  for instructors who have a large number of youths and kids in their school, what goes through your mind when they perform poorly during a test?


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> 
> *I saw a boy around 8-10 years old at 7th degree Black Belt. He was good but not a 7th degree black belt. *



Sheesh.


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## Danny

That's crazy!  In the ITF it takes about 25 yrs. to get a 7th Dan.  Obviously something seriously wrong at that school.  Don't judge TKD based on that non sense.


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## Kempojujutsu

Does the ATA belong to the WTF, or are the ATA, WTF, and ITF three different Organzations?
Bob


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## karatekid1975

I think they are all different (orgs) from one another. I know WTF and ITF are different, but I never heard of ATA.


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## Damian Mavis

"This was again an ATA Tae Kwon Do School, and most people I have talk to say they SUCK. But they give all you other TKD'ers out there a BAD NAME."

You're damn skippy they are giving TKD a bad name.  In ITF and WTF you cant even get second degree untill a certain age let alone 7th...that has got to be a joke or something.

Your complaint number 2 and 3 just support that they havent a clue what they are doing,  does anyone actually still practice self defence with the attacker holding his punch straight out for you to manipulate?  Maybe this was a parody martial arts demonstration?  That would have been my first question to their instructor.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## karatekid1975

Ok, I just re-read that about the 7th dan 10 year old ......WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! That's the ATA? I know for damn sure it's not the WTF, because like Damian said, there's age restrictions. In the WTF, you have to be 40 something to get a 7th dan (I think). What's the full name on the ATA? I wanna look them up and get a good laugh :rofl:


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## white dragon

Just for the comment about holding the arm out to be manipulated - it's still done, and I actually had a semi-argument with a 5th Dan about it. They do it 1-step sparring, the attacker comes forward in a forward stance, and does a mid section punch, mean while you're standing there in your ready position. 

Normally I wouldn't do 1-step like this, I'd always been taught it from a fighting stance position and the guy steps through with the punch and you counter, if you wait too long the guy will slap you. After a few goes you quickly learn to make certain moves instinctive! I asked the instructor why he still taught it in the forward stance and he said "because it's traditional, it's just there to simulate what would happen if someone attacked you". Now I haven't been a large amount of fights, which I'm happy about, but how many people have ever been attacked by someone whilst you've stood there in a ready stance, and they've thrown a straight mid section punch in a forward stance???

It doesn't happen. complete bulls**t. And also when you attack the person they stay in exactly the same position, so if you kick them in the ribs with a sidekick they'll keep standing there with their arm held out, which again I doubt would really happen. Sorry just got some issues at the moment!


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## arnisador

Here's their site:
http://www.ataonline.com/


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## karatekid1975

Ok, I can laugh now :rofl: 6 Year old BB's HAHAHAHAHAHAH That is too funny. Don't get me wrong. I love watchin the kids in class. They are cute when they learn techniques, but the 6 year old BB thing is a little un-realistic, don't ya think?


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## white dragon

6 years old??? I was in the local park yesturday with a friend and his 4 year old son... children better grow very fast between the ages of 4 and 6 is all I can say! Hmmm, and they're holding a black belt camp? That would be interesting to check out I think.

"The ATA's vision for the 21st Century includes the mission to develop the best black belts in the world." hmmm, not a 6 years old they're not!


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## white dragon

Taken from the ATA message board:

My Instructor has done somenthing I disagree with.  he has made some 4 year olds Jr Instructors.  I thought they had to be at least 6. and one of them whines and cries when it is time to come to class.  At 4 I don't think they undestand the meaning of being a Jr. instructor. Am I missing something? What you all think?

Tiny Tiger Instructor 

-------------------------------

are there many organisations/clubs that do things like this??? No wonder tkd gets such a bad name!!!


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## Kirk

Okay, so for you TDKers out there ... you've heard some horror
stories associated with TKD in the states.  Given that, can you
at least understand where some of the bashing stems from?


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## white dragon

I didn't before joining this board because I'd never seen something so shockingly bad to be honest. But now, yep, I understand, I still can't believe that it's just TKD that has bad schools.... there just seem to be more of them though, so you're bound to get bad ones. 

I was very suprised when I heard TKD was the most popular martial art because it's really not very big over in the UK. There's a lot going on, but most people just know Karate, Kung Fu, and Judo. When you mention taekwondo a lot of people will go "what's that? The one that involves folding paper?" :S


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## Kirk

> _Originally posted by white dragon _
> 
> *I didn't before joining this board because I'd never seen something so shockingly bad to be honest. But now, yep, I understand, I still can't believe that it's just TKD that has bad schools.... there just seem to be more of them though, so you're bound to get bad ones.
> 
> I was very suprised when I heard TKD was the most popular martial art because it's really not very big over in the UK. There's a lot going on, but most people just know Karate, Kung Fu, and Judo. When you mention taekwondo a lot of people will go "what's that? The one that involves folding paper?" :S *



It is NOT just TKD.  But TKD is so popular over here, when you do
the numbers people SEE more bad TKD schools, because there's
more TKD schools than other styles.  Where I live, there's more
probably more TKD schools than others combined!


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## white dragon

You'd think an instructor might think "hmmm there are already 5 schools in a 15 minute walk.... maybe this town doesn't need another"


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## Kirk

> _Originally posted by white dragon _
> 
> *You'd think an instructor might think "hmmm there are already 5 schools in a 15 minute walk.... maybe this town doesn't need another" *



Seems like quite a few come in, make their money and then either
leave, or relocate.  One friend of mine is a red belt, and  is now
faced with the option of finding another TKD school which will
ALSO let him keep his rank (often isn't allowed around here), 
driving an hour out of town to go to the new location, or starting
over fresh, at a new school, and/or new style.


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## white dragon

sounds like starting over at a new club may not be too bad. However bad it'll be to go down the ranks.


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## karatekid1975

Kirk said

"Okay, so for you TDKers out there ... you've heard some horror
stories associated with TKD in the states.  Given that, can you
at least understand where some of the bashing stems from?"

Yes, now I know where it's coming from. F$%&ing ATA!!!! Most would think it was the WTF. NOT! At least, the WTF has rules! I say that us REAL TKD people go and beat the crap outta ATA! Ok, I'm being a little unreasonable, but they are making us look bad. Not all TKD schools or assn's are like that. That pisses me off. Sorry mods, but it does.


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## Kirk

karatekid1975, unfortunately this was an ITF school.  He had a
contract guaranteeing him a black belt in 2 years.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by white dragon _
> 
> *Taken from the ATA message board:
> 
> My Instructor has done somenthing I disagree with.  he has made some 4 year olds Jr Instructors.  I thought they had to be at least 6. and one of them whines and cries when it is time to come to class.  At 4 I don't think they undestand the meaning of being a Jr. instructor. *



I'm stunned. I have nothing to say.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

"Yes Sir" "More Milk and Cookies Sir?"  "Wipe your nose for you Sir?" "Change your Diper for you Sir?"

I mean, whats next?  "Congratulations Mrs Murphy, you've given birth to an 7lb 2nd degree BlackBelt.  Remember, he gets his 3rd when hes on solid food."

(please note, this isn't a knock at TKD..just the insanity of black belts for kids).

:asian:


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> 
> *I mean, whats next?  "Congratulations Mrs Murphy, you've given birth to an 7lb 2nd degree BlackBelt. *



Heh! As you say, this is a knock on instructors who have $old out, not on any art. Modern Arnis has a relatively young black belt (early teens, IMAF-Delaney). It can happen in any art and will happen more often in the world's most popular art. Still, even for that it does seem disproportionate in TKD, I must say.


----------



## Rob_Broad

I have tried to be politically correct all day, but this giving a 4 yr old a Junior Instructor title, come on.  And the line that is almost as insane is I thought you had to be atleast 6 yrs old for that.  Someone needs to give their head a shake.  I let 13 yr old be Junior Instructors, but only after they took a special course and they only worked with the really young children and with several qualified instructors in the room.

No wonder people mouth off at TKD.  Whats next kids popping out of the womb with 2nd degree Black belts.


----------



## Bagatha

Pffffft!!!! un-REEEEAAALL!! please tell me that was a joke..:soapbox:


----------



## ThuNder_FoOt

> _Originally posted by Danny _
> 
> *
> 
> I disagree.  All arts are not created equal.  Certainly a good instructor, and dedicated students certainly make the vast majority of difference in any art, but some are just better then others for given purposes. *



Give me some examples... I find this highly unlikely. 

Tell me, how would one judge an art's effectiveness over another art?? You can't simply match an art against another art??? Martial arts are simply philosophies... nothing is set in stone.  Someone must practice the art, inorder to prove its effectiveness, or better yet put the philosophies into action. And with that, all is based on the practioner's decisions, reflexes, and movements... thus, creating an infinite variable. 

So how can one style be better than another style? Sorry, I'm just not understanding your point.

:asian: ThuNder_FoOt:asian:


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## ThuNder_FoOt

I have had some experience with the ATA organization... but I don't think I'll share my experience as I don't it will be beneficial to anyone in this "trash talk" thread. 

 Suprising to see trash come from TKD players as well.... very amusing. :asian: :asian:


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## white dragon

Kirk -

"karatekid1975, unfortunately this was an ITF school. He had a
contract guaranteeing him a black belt in 2 years."

OK first I personally think 2 years is too soon for a blackbelt, but hey I guess it depends on the individual, HOWEVER how can you possibly garantee someone a black  belt with a set time limit??? What happens if they only come down once a week, at the end of the two years do you still have to give them the belt?


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by ThuNder_FoOt _
> 
> *Tell me, how would one judge an art's effectiveness over another art?? You can't simply match an art against another art??? Martial arts are simply philosophies... nothing is set in stone.  *



There are styles of jujutsu that were designed for battle between two armored fighters, each of which was likely to have a large sword on his left hip. Many of the techniques focus on immobilizing the right hand to prevent a draw of the sword by your opponent. They were probably great for that purpose! Nowadays, what do you think? How about arts that concentrate a good amount of their time on defending attacks that start with both players in _seiza_ (that is, kneeling Japanese-style)? Remember, the quote to which you were responding said better _for given purposes_.

Many Filipino arts focus on the likelihood of a knife draw. If that's likely, a FMA is a good call. It's said that Canadian trappers in the 1800s developed their own jujutsu-like self-defense method--striking would have been tough with those huge fur jackets they wore. High-kicking arts assume that in your culture you're not likely to be wearing clothes that preclude the use of high kicks.

Some arts are general purpose, but many are specific to some purpose or situation. Some assume you're likely to be smaller than your opponent (snake style kung fu), heavier (sumo), or faster (JKD). (Someone might argue with me over any one of these characterizations.) Some assume you or your opponent are likely to be armed (Sayoc Kali fits both sides of this). Would you want to rely on Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in a one-on-one situation? Aikido in a small, tight room?

Lots of arts make assumptions that are likely to be good for some purposes but not for others. The reasons may be historical (some styles of jujtsu), philosophical (aikido), somatic (snake style or sumo), sports-oriented (judo or BJJ being more dueling arts), or something else.


----------



## karatekid1975

Kirk -

"karatekid1975, unfortunately this was an ITF school. He had a
contract guaranteeing him a black belt in 2 years."

Wow! Ok, I thought the ITF was "traditional." Well, we can't judge the org or ***'n for a couple of s**ty dojangs. But still, that is unreal. In my school, it takes roughly 4 to 5 years for BB (longer for kids). And we are WTF. It is also required that anyone under 16 gets a junior BB, and I haven't seen anyone younger then 12 with a junior BB.


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by karatekid1975 _
> 
> *Wow! Ok, I thought the ITF was "traditional." *



I don't know anything about any federation, really.  When I was 
starting out in TKD, I could care less.  I just wanted to learn.



> _Originally posted by karatekid1975 _
> 
> *Well, we can't judge the org or ***'n for a couple of s**ty dojangs. *



I totally agree, and if I implied otherwise, I'm sorry.  Which 
federation is closest to olympic style TKD?


----------



## Damian Mavis

WTF is olympic style TKD.  2 years for black belt in either WTF or ITF is not supposed to happen.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## ThuNder_FoOt

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> ...Lots of arts make assumptions that are likely to be good for some purposes but not for others. The reasons may be historical (some styles of jujtsu), philosophical (aikido), somatic (snake style or sumo), sports-oriented (judo or BJJ being more dueling arts), or something else. *



I can understand your point of view. But i can only see this is partial truth. Techniques are always adapted to fit different situations. Just as Bruce Lee took fencing, and adapted it to unarmed combat. It is how a person evolves. On some points, i do agree as arts can be outdated. But even still, that doesn't determine the art's effectiveness in my eyes. Fighters are presented with advantages and disadvantages all the time. Its something one must deal with in order to be effective, no matter what style.

I will believe that some arts may appear to have greater advantages in particular situations, but even then... there are tooo many determining factors, aside from the situation to give that assumption. 

:asian:ThunDer_FoOt:asian:


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## Master of Blades

The only reason I would say TKD is a load of tripe is cuz its no use in the real world. Firstly you really only use about two kicks in the real life which as far as Im concerned they DONT teach you and you cannot afford to learn Linear! It will not help you when sparring other styles either. I also dont like the fact that all I have to do is jump in a few steps and Ive closed the kicking distance, meaning that unless my opponant is a senior TKD man, hes seriously screwed.


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## sweeper

what kicks don't they teach, and what do you mean by "learn linear" ?


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## Damian Mavis

I'm still amazed that people don't realise there are 2 styles of TKD.  There is olympic style which does not have boxing and then there is ITF which does.  So when you talk about closing the gap on an ITF TKD stylist all youll get is punched in the face.  Now if youre going to shoot in and do a take down/grapple...then a traditional TKD artist is screwed.  Hopefully like everyone else they learn outside their art.  Does anyone actually only learn one art nowadays?  Seems like its the hip thing to do to learn several arts.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Cthulhu

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> 
> *The only reason I would say TKD is a load of tripe is cuz its no use in the real world. Firstly you really only use about two kicks in the real life which as far as Im concerned they DONT teach you and you cannot afford to learn Linear! It will not help you when sparring other styles either. I also dont like the fact that all I have to do is jump in a few steps and Ive closed the kicking distance, meaning that unless my opponant is a senior TKD man, hes seriously screwed. *



Let me ask you this:  have you ever seriously trained in TKD?  Have you ever trained with someone with any appreciable time in TKD?  Where are you getting this knowledge about TKD?  Things you've heard?  Read?

Personally, I've never seriously trained in TKD, but I have trained with highly ranked TKD people in the past.  One of them has used his TKD kicks in numerous self-defense situations.  Successfully.  

It's how the individual uses a style that makes a style effective or ineffective.  It's not TKD that's ineffective, it's ineffective fighters using TKD badly.  As a JKD student, you should heed the words of Bruce Lee, who said, "Man, the creating individual, is more important than any established system or style", or something to that effect.

Good luck with your training, and remember...the mind, like a parachute, works best when open.

:asian:

Cthulhu


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## karatekid1975

Amen Cthulhu :asian: 

I would like to add to that. When I did TSD, I didn't like TKD, because I thought it was no more than sport. Well, guess where I ended up? TKD. When I started TKD, I was so close-minded that I would actually make fun of the techniques, and compare the two. I wasn't giving TKD a chance (even being a TKD student). I would do my techniques the TSD way, piss people off, and not get anywhere. I'm the type of person who wants to know "why and How" everything works, so my master and instructor explained to me why we do this and that, and how it works. I said "Ok, that makes sence now." I started to open up, and guess what? I really enjoy TKD  

As far as WTF not doing punching or self defense, check out my dojang   We do it all (including take-downs, ect).

:soapbox:  Ok, now I'll get off my soap box (for now).


----------



## Damian Mavis

Yes I know there's schools that practice realistic self defence (like my own).  What I was referring to was the style of sparring accepted by the 2 individual federations (ITF & WTF).  ITF is similar to kickboxing and WTF is more dynamic, relying on kicking techniques with very little options in punching (only allowed punching to the torso).  I'm sure theres thousands of schools in both federations that do all kinds of other stuff, I'm just talking about the federations rules for sparring.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Rob_Broad

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> * I'm sure theres thousands of schools in both federations that do all kinds of other stuff, I'm just talking about the federations rules for sparring.
> 
> Damian Mavis
> Honour TKD *



Maybe that could be part of the problem people have with TKD.  The WTF has pushed a certainimagine for everyone since they started their campaign to get into the Oylpmics.  Rarely do they show the public anything other than their sparring and occaisionally some breaking.  Very seldom do they show the public the poomse that is found in WTF.  At TKD tournaments they rush through all the events to get to the sparring,and they rush through the color belts to get to the Black Belt sparring.

Maybe it is the public image that the WTF has propigated that has created all the resentment for TKD.


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## sweeper

probably, "TKD is not a Martial art, It's a sport" That came out of the mouth of a TKD practitioner I know how was fairly acomplished in tournament fighting. I don't know if he was WTF or ITF, I didn't ask him. But that's one perspective on the matter.


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## kickyou

Sweeper,

Just because one uneducated individual told you this does not make it a correct statement. TKD is very much an art and the sparring aspect is only one of several things that is taught to the student, patterns and history are a very big part of the training if this person is receiving training from a reputable instructor.


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## Damian Mavis

He was most likely WTF.  They have alot of "sport oriented" schools.  NOT ALL but alot.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## sweeper

kickyou you misunderstand me, I'm not saying because he told me that it's true, I'm saying there are schools that have made TKD a sport, and some schools only teach that sport. In other words, for the guy who said that to me it was true, and for others out there it is true. I'm trying to say it is quite posable to come across people that know nothing more about TKD than the sport, it's probaby even posably to only come across these people when looking at multiple schools (just by luck). So I don't think it's realy fair to get upset with someone when they think this because you can come across quite a few TKD practitioners that do think this.


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## Kirk

I think the summation is that in the U.S. there's a lot of people,
soiling the good name of TKD, in their own pursuit of money.
This influences a lot of people's perception of TKD as a whole,
mostly due to prejudice, and possibly jealousy.  In the U.S., TKD
is THE most popular martial art.  Some have watered their art
down because of greed, some are former students, now teachers
of these people, and some in other arts are just jealous, or need
some kind of b.s. validation of their own style, and they get that
by dogging on another style.  We _should_  all agree that
watered down styles, McDojos, etc can happen in ANY style, not
just TKD.  The problem is that since TKD is the most popular m.a.
style, the law of numbers says that they'd have the largest 
number of McDojos and people ruining it's good name.  

Just like school pride, people naturally get offended when they
get dragged into the dirt with the truly dirty.  Yet people go on
about it    I only quit TKD because I felt I was just too
big of a person to be doing so much jumping, so I opted for an
art that did little to none.  And I must say, I find it just a bit
disturbing that week after week THIS thread is at the top.
Let's stop what NON TKD'ers feel about your art, and 
let's start discussing techniques, forms, instructors, history,
future of, etc.   This thread is 11 pages long ... and all we got
was what we had in the beginning ... Non TKD'ers don't like
TKD ... big surprise there!


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## karatekid1975

Amen, Kirk. I totally agree with you dude.


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## sweeper

well I would argue that a relativly small percentage of people (relative to the total amount of MT users) have posted negativly about TKD. The thing is every couple weeks a new person joins up and posts on the thred and it pops back to the top..


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## fissure

I hope the "new guy" doesn't offend too many with this, but -
does it really matter what type of competiton style one conforms to? if you have rules and referees you are not fighting, you are involved in a sport.i have competed in point style shotokan competion (loved the range of techniques allowed - but i could'nt hit anyone, and after the first 27 breaks i wanted to kill the ref.), and also wtf style tournaments (nothing like k.o.ing your opponent, but even grade school kids know your not fighting if someone doesn't get punched in the mouth). my personnal teaching method combines the stances and hand techniques of shotokan, with the movement and kicking skills of tkd.i include self defence in every class, regardless of student belt level.
having said all of this, i am painfully aware of the very high percentage of really crappy tkd schools out there.sprint drills, chest protector kicking drills, et., are fine if you know why you are doing them. but to include them in your mainstream classes, and to pass this kind of watered down sport training off as authentic martial arts (especially to unknowing kids and parents) is disturbing.sorry - i'm starting to rant.
i wanted to include one of those little face things, but none seemed to express enough fustration.


----------



## OldBean

Hello, 
I have just read the whole thread and I tend to agree with Kirk. A lot of non TKD people just don't like your art - some of that is because of some of the issues mentioned in this thread.

At the end of the day, enjoy your art! Be proud of it because you could be doing some other worthless activity such as browsing the web etc  

Now to address a few points:

TKD in the UK is more respected than in the US partly because it would appear that standards of teaching appear to be higher and more uniform and also because it's not the most popular art in the UK as White Dragon has stated. I take this on trust as I am not a TKD chap.

A second point why people don't like TKD is that it looks good ! to do some of what you do takes time, skill and dedication - not everyone has either the physical condition or ability to pull it off -  a bit of jealousy is probably there.

Posted by Damian Mavis:-

I'm still amazed that people don't realise there are 2 styles of TKD. There is olympic style which does not have boxing and then there is ITF which does. So when you talk about closing the gap on an ITF TKD stylist all youll get is punched in the face. Now if youre going to shoot in and do a take down/grapple...then a traditional TKD artist is screwed. Hopefully like everyone else they learn outside their art. Does anyone actually only learn one art nowadays? Seems like its the hip thing to do to learn several arts.

As a Wing Chun guy, if I am able to close the gap (a big IF in my case) you are in my domain, (a BJJ guy would be in his element as well) and this what we train - your telegraphed punches may not get through (they might but it's not a certainty as I'm sure you'd agree). Not everyone does a Mixed Martial Art though I think there are good and bad reasons for doing so. A BJJ guy, a JKD guy, MT fighter, Silat guy etc they are still one art and they can potentially give TKD stylists big trouble.  The key word here is potentially- dissing a style is silly - dissing poor instruction can be justified because it might save someones life.  

What I am trying to say is that I hear a lot of TKD guys talk about kicking and in some circumstances it just isn't wise to just kick. 
(kicking is the prime skill as I understand it - you train other things but not as frequently which means that in close quarters you might not have acquired good enough skill to apply it well)

A lot of us outside TKD don't see skilled TKD guys often enough and form our opinions based on limited exposure to your art usually by looking at unskilled TKDers. The same can be said of any art.


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## Damian Mavis

Whos got telegraphed punches? haha

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## OldBean

Agreeing to disagree is fine by me Damian.


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## Damian Mavis

What are you talking about?  What are we agreeing to disagree about? heh  I was serious.  Who's got telegraphed punches?  Me personally?  I dont understand.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## OldBean

Damian,
First of all the wording of my mail was clumsy. My comments are not directed at you personally.

What I was trying to suggest is that quite a few TKD guys telegraph their punches through their technique - not all but quite a few. Since I am not a TKD guy I may be wrong and am quite prepared to accept that  but the punching I have seen from some TKDers gives me that impression. I suspect that you disagree with me on this, right? ie you don't accept that TKD punches are telegraphic in their nature, right? 


An ITF guy is not in his element in close quarter combat - other styles are. It does not mean to say that the result is a foregone conclusion - it's always the man rather than the art of course.

Hope that clears up the misunderstanding.


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## Damian Mavis

Well, theres very traditional schools and there are open minded schools like the one I teach. Open minded in that I take what I think is best from the arts I study and add it to my curiculum.  I Box among other things so no, my punches are not telegraphed and neither are my students.  And I see alot of ITF schools in my city that have great punching technique but then I see an ITF school on television or in another city doing the weirdest things that would not work on the street not to mention horrible punching skills.

I wasnt saying TKD stylists were good in close quarters, to me close quarters are knee, elbow, headbutt , biting range.  Close quarters to me is just before you grapple.  Most TKD schools do not touch this area, but some do.  What I said earlier was in response to someone saying that if they were against a TKD stylist they would get close enough to nullify their kicks and then they would have eliminated all the TKD stylists techniques.  In ITF we often get jammed and our response has always been to box like mad in that range.  I also stated right after that, that if someone were to shoot in and do a takedown/grapple then the ITF TKD stylist is probably out of options.  That was it.  Just didnt like the fact that so many people still think ALL TKD doesnt box when in ITF that is exactly what we do.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## OldBean

Damian,
Your definition of close quarters is correct -  that's what I'd define it to be though I didn't say it ! Argh 

As for close quarter work, Wing Chun, MT , BJJ  train this area extensively  - In Wing Chun, JKD extra drills to improve sensitivity are trained. My point remains that without specific training in this area a TKD guy is at a disadvantage. With Wing Chun we'll always want to be in this range as it's a range we are more familiar with. 

If a TKD guy is skilled in this area, fine, but most are not in my limited experience. As for kicking, we always want to be in a position where we don't allow the TKD guy to kick - we nullify by negating range or by parrying with the foot depending on the kick. It takes a lot of skill to do this right. In WC in close quarter work we kick low by angling the foot. I always find low kicks difficult to deal with -  a guy untrained  in dealing with low kicks will find it difficult to counter particularly when faced with a simultaneous hand/foot strike which is typical of some arts.

My understanding is that in competition low kicks are not allowed so what do you train to deal with them? I am thinking of self -defence - using your hands can work with smaller opponents but can be problematic if you face a heavy kick from a big opponent.


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## fissure

The last post mentions that low kicks are not allowed in TKD tournaments, leading to the question of how a TKD practioner would deal with such a tech. in a self defence aspect. This seems to be a common line of asumption at this site - that is basing a systems fundamentals upon it's competion rules. Any form of tournament 'sparring' is no more than a sport, and cannot reflect self defence or "streat fighting", regardless of the rules.The simple fact that there are rules makes any comparison impossible.
anyway thats what i'm thinking!
:EG:


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## Damian Mavis

heh, I don't think you understand... I agree with you fully.  I'm saying this because you still seem to be debating with me but unless your trying to tell me ITF TKD doesnt box then we have nothing to debate about haha.  I wasn't disagreeing with your point of view at all, I was just clarifying what I was talking about which was the opinion that TKD doesnt box and it does, thats all.  Everything you've said about close quarters etc seems pretty good to me.

Your average TKD practitioner is not skilled in close quarters, period.  Whenever I say things like this I'm always careful to use words like "your average practitioner" or "most" because there are always exceptions to the rule.

In most TKD schools they dont train to defend from low kicks so no they have no defence for that either.  I personally train in Muay Thai, thats how I train to defend from low kicks heh.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## OldBean

Damian,

Sorry I rammed home the point too much 

Fissure, 
Your point is taken. Ok, so forget the competition side of TKD and think of TKD as a martial art - what TKD  techniques would you use to defend against a low kick? 

In Wing Chun, JKD a lot of what you learn is directly applicable to the street but you have to train it. Our technique is 'designed' for the street - I admit some things work better than others and I also accept that in a street situation you may not be in a position to apply your art - sh*t happens etc.

BTW chaps , don't be thinking I am hostile to TKD - I am not - I am just trying to give a different sense of perspective pertinent to this thread.


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## OldBean

Damian,
I realized after posting you'd answered my question-  I am just trying to see if Fissure has a different perspective.


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## fissure

Fissure, 
Your point is taken. Ok, so forget the competition side of TKD and think of TKD as a martial art - what TKD techniques would you use to defend against a low kick? 

To be honest with you, I know of no technique unique or specific to TKD to counteract low line kicking attacks. The movements that we practise are probably the same as every other stlye- namely get the hell out of the way or if the kick is unavoidable, bite the bullet , raise your lower leg ,take it on the outer shin and hope for the best! By the way, we also practise leg kicking attacks - just because you can kick someone in the head doesn't mean you have to! Whats good for the goose, and all that :EG:


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## Bagatha

> _Originally posted by fissure _
> 
> *Fissure,
> Your point is taken. Ok, so forget the competition side of TKD and think of TKD as a martial art - what TKD techniques would you use to defend against a low kick?
> 
> To be honest with you, I know of no technique unique or specific to TKD to counteract low line kicking attacks. The movements that we practise are probably the same as every other stlye- namely get the hell out of the way or if the kick is unavoidable, bite the bullet , raise your lower leg ,take it on the outer shin and hope for the best! By the way, we also practise leg kicking attacks - just because you can kick someone in the head doesn't mean you have to! Whats good for the goose, and all that :EG: *



-checking kick

-pressing blocks

-crescent kicks

-cirrcular block

.......might be missing some above my degree...


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## fissure

Bagatha,again these are not Taekwon Do specific tech. They are the same leg blocking/parrying/jamming movements that every stylist I have trained with uses.If you look at the sequence of post the point I'm trying to get across in this and other threads is for people not to judge an art ( mine happen to be Taekwon Do, and many years ago Shotokan) by it's competition rules.No there are not leg kicks in TKD tournys. but that doesn't mean they are no practised.In the same way does a fighter who competes in point fighting not know how to hit someone full power? After all they don'nt hit anyone in competion right? COMPETION IS NOT FIGHTING!!!! If you have any doughts look around, if you see a referee inforcing ANY kind of rule book, chances are your brobably in a tournament and not fighting for your life in some parking lot!
Sorry to get carried away


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## Bagatha

Ya ok, you went off on a tangent there I think lol , you asked for TKD techniques that were for low kicks, I posted a response, whether or not they are TKD specific or not I wouldnt know, but those are techniques that are taught. TKD of course is not only tourny fighting, otherwise it would be useless, and so would teaching those techniques.


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## fissure

Yeah, I tend to drift off into other thoughts sometimes!But I wasn't asking fot TKD low kick defences, I was responding to OldBean:


> My understanding is that in competition low kicks are not allowed so what do you train to deal with them? I am thinking of self -defence - using your hands can work with smaller opponents but can be problematic if you face a heavy kick from a big opponent





> Ok, so forget the competition side of TKD and think of TKD as a martial art - what TKD techniques would you use to defend against a low kick?


Thats why my response inquired about TKD specific tech.:asian:


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## Bagatha

My fault :O didnt read the whole thread


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## Marginal

> _Originally posted by fissure _
> 
> *these are not Taekwon Do specific tech. They are the same leg blocking/parrying/jamming movements that every stylist I have trained with uses.*


Nonetheless, TKD teaches these as counters to low kicks as well. I'm not sure why they have to be exclusive to TKD (do they simply not work or what?) for someone to say that TKD has defenses in place for low kicks. It does. 

-checking kick

-pressing blocks

-crescent kicks

-circular block

-knee blocks

These all be known by TKD practitioners. (Or at least those in the USTF) Seems more like you're creating an arbitrary distinction to reinforce whatever point it is that you're trying to make. 

Saying they don't exist simply because their not unique is... Strange to say the least.


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## fissure

original posts by old bean:


> My understanding is that in competition low kicks are not allowed so what do you train to deal with them? I am thinking of self -defence - using your hands can work with smaller opponents but can be problematic if you face a heavy kick from a big opponent.





> Ok, so forget the competition side of TKD and think of TKD as a martial art - what TKD techniques would you use to defend against a low kick?


Marginal:





> I'm not sure why they have to be exclusive to TKD


my posts where in responce to oldbean's questions.
you have to read the whole thread, or things get taken out of context!You'll notice he asks for TKD tech. specifically.


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## Damian Mavis

Marginal, I'm sorry but you are mistaken.  TKD does not teach defences against leg kicks, but obviously YOUR instructor does....see the difference?  If someone were to walk into my TKD school on a given night they might see me teaching some shootfighting techniques and grappling, does that mean TKD has brazillian Ju jitsu in it? NO, it means I as an instructor in TKD decided to teach other forms of defence because I thought it was important to survival in a street defence situation.   I guess the difference between your instructor and I is that I give credit to other arts and dont play it off as if TKD incorporates the best of everything...cause it doesn't.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## fissure

Damian , I 'm glad you could make the point.Apparently I couldn't!


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## Marginal

Thing is, if the techniques are in Choi's TKD encyclopedia, I'm not sure how they don't qualify as TKD techs. 
Because not all schools teach them, they should then be ignored, or considered "not true TKD"? That doesn't really sit well with me. After all, round kick execution varies from WTF to ITF. Which is right? Apparently one is, and one is wrong because only the average teaching method is "true" TKD.

For that matter, not all TKD schools cover ho son sul. Are the self-defense techniques then also not part of TKD?

With all due respect, I cannot accept that reasoning.


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## Damian Mavis

Marginal...your awfully opinionated for an 8th gup, which is fine but I'm truly shocked that a yellow belt has been so..... gosh I'm trying to find a nice word for it but brainwashed is all that comes to mind.  Your attitude about "true tkd" is very disheartening, and that attitude obviously comes from your instructor.  I teach my students to be humble and to never get into an argument about my art is better than your art type thing , or my association is better than your association...

I've been all over visiting ITF schools and none of them teach half the stuff from the encyclopedia, if your instructor teaches it thats great for you but I assure you it is not the norm.  Honestly I find the self defence and stuff from the encyclopedia to be unusable...and it surprises me that someone like yourself who also takes BJJ and Muay Thai would think otherwise.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


----------



## Marginal

That's an interesting conclusion to draw. So I'm... Brainswashed. 

Turth be told, I wasn't aware I was knocking any particular style. All I was saying was that one's particular view of the art is rarely all encompassing. (Which in my percetpion, makes definite claims of what is or isn't true TKD somewhat difficult to swallow.) 

I realize that this thread's covering what TKD is in general, or at least what the general perceptions are, (Most people I've talked to seem to think TKD's purely about flipping off springboards and kicking apples off knives... Sigh) but saying stuff's not present in the art simply because someone elects not to teach it...

It's still there isn't it? If it's in the body of stuff you can potentially teach a TKD student, I'm still not sure how it doesn't count as TKD simply because it's not largely used.

The ho son sul comment was just another example of that. (Of course that seems to vary a lot depending on the TKD school as well. Most of the stuff we learn revolves around JJ style armlocks etc and a few hip throws... But then if I was looking for grappling, I'd be taking judo, BJJ, wrestling etc.) It wasn't meant to claim that it somehow takes the place of a dedicated art like BJJ etc. Obviously, it does not. 

All my instructors have taught me in terms of relative superiority is that TKD isn't a dead art. It's supposed to evolve. (In short, what is TKD now may not be TKD as we know it 10 years down the road.) Some things are there merely for the sake of looking pretty, some of it's good defensive tactics etc. So going by that, it's hard to definitively state "This is not TKD" So my comments were never intended to say one style etc was better than one or another. They were aimed more at questioning the concept of "true" TKD, cause I haven't seen much (if any) agreement on that that actually is. 

My instructors have spent zero time trying to impress superiority of one art over another, or of one branch of TKD over another. All they ask is that if you're there to train TKD, you do TKD. (Never stuck me as especially close minded as far as POV's go.)

Oh, and just to clarify, I don't train BJJ or MT. The profile thinggie just said "List arts you're interested in" Apologies for any confusion there.


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## Damian Mavis

"Apparently one is, and one is wrong because only the average teaching method is "true" TKD."

That to me sounded like you felt one federation was better than the other but I could have been mistaken as to your meaning.  I said brainwashed because you are only a yellow belt and yet have all kinds of ideas about TKD... which to me at such an early level is brainwashing since it took me over a decade to figure things out and see them for myself instead of relying on what my instructor told me and treating it like gospel.  If all your info is from your instructor, I am trying to point out that it might not be true just becuase he tells you it is.

Anyway, why don't you tell me a little about yourself so I understand your point a little better.... I run my own ITF school in Ottawa Canada but I myself train in several martial arts to supplement my TKD.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Marginal

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *"Apparently one is, and one is wrong because only the average teaching method is "true" TKD."
> 
> That to me sounded like you felt one federation was better than the other but I could have been mistaken as to your meaning.*


No, it was meant more to be an extrapolation of the line of thinking that makes one technique TKD and not TKD as demonstrated in this thread. 



> I said brainwashed because you are only a yellow belt and yet have all kinds of ideas about TKD...


Not that many.  Most of it's fairly self-evident as far as I can see. I'm not going to say TKD has no hand techniques due to the shotokan derived nature of the punching for example. Doesn't make sense. 



> which to me at such an early level is brainwashing since it took me over a decade to figure things out and see them for myself instead of relying on what my instructor told me and treating it like gospel.


I've never really felt compelled to treat what my instructor says as gospel. What they say does make sense though. (Mainly because they've all been through more or less the same process you have. One instructor even made a simlar comment to the one quoted above, how what TKD was didn't click until he was 2nd Dan or so...)



> If all your info is from your instructor, I am trying to point out that it might not be true just becuase he tells you it is.


I realize this.  It's   partly why I'm not taking what you say as the whole truth as well.  



> Anyway, why don't you tell me a little about yourself so I understand your point a little better....


Either the point stands on its own or it does not. My background shouldn't determine whether or not TKD has a crescent kick IMO...

Anyway, I've been training for around 8 months. I'm leaving it at that. (I really, really don't want to play politics, and schools closer tied to Gen Choi seem to be drawing a lot of flack in this forum.) I mainly got into TKD because my college offered it free. I enjoyed it, so I kept it up with a dojang close to my house when I'm not in school.  I'll probably branch out into BJJ or something else later when I have the time (and money).
The way my schedule runs though, I'm not likely to make 6th gup (presuming I pass the belt tests) until next spring. Don't mind that much. Least I'll have a decent handle on the basics at this rate.  

When I'm interested in something though, I tend to try to read everything on a subject that I can find. I've seen a whole lot of TKD debates in various forums etc, read some interesting articles, books and so on. (That's where most of my opinions stem from.)


----------



## artful dodger

I haven't had time to read this whole thread, but yeah I have noticed a lot of mouthing off of TKD. Parallelling it to synchronised swimming was a recent one. It does tend to be people who haven't been in MA for very long. You notice the more experienced practitioners are generally of the opinion that its not the art you train in but how you train in your art, advocating that crosstraining its not necessary either. Just know your stuff better than your opponent knows his/hers.


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by artful dodger _
> 
> *You notice the more experienced practitioners are generally of the opinion that its not the art you train in but how you train in your art*



Yup. This is the big thing, though some arts are a better match for some people I believe.


----------



## Damian Mavis

My whole point and what I've been leading up to has actually had nothing to do with what techniques are what.  You mention crescent kick, I know there is a crescent kick, I havent actually been concerned with that.  

When I read your first post and checked your background I saw a yellow belt with an awful lot of information and opinions that was vehement in what he believed.  So I wanted to get into it a bit with you to try to figure you out a little... since you do not behave like any yellow belt I have ever encountered.  The feeling I've been getting from you and what I was hoping you would freely admit is that you truly believe that youre in a TKD school superior to others.... this is a common trait of ALOT of schools.  In your last post you kinda solidified what I was looking for by mentioning "I really, really don't want to play politics, and schools closer tied to Gen Choi seem to be drawing a lot of flack in this forum."  If after only 8 months you believe this or even know of this for that matter means your instructor is force feeding you a handful of crap about your school being closer to the General and therefore your TKD is "truer TKD" and superior to all the copy cats out there... even if we too are ITF.  This is arrogant and ignorant.  

You have no respect for your seniors, your instructor is obviously so busy teaching you how much better your TKD is he neglected to teach you humility and respect.  If we ever meet at a tournament or seminar would you debate me about an art I actually teach with such vehemence in person?  You trained for 8 months, read a few books and listened to every morsel of garbage your instructor has fed you.... and you firmly believe that you are right and every other instructor in your art is wrong.  Do you know how I know TKD has no defence for leg kicks besides the fact that I teach the art?  I have thrown full contact leg kicks at TKD artists in our federation time and time again and each and every time they go flat on their back or eat a solid charlie horse.  THEY HAVE NO DEFENCE FOR LEG KICKS.

I have bled and sweat and lived the agony of years of hard training.  What you take out of a book I have tested and tried in real life year after year...... most of it is garbage.  It is truly foolish of you to come here with such limitted experience and claim it as truth when you really have nothing to back it up but a book.

To others reading this thread I know I sound arrogant... keep in mind that I am debating with someone who is in my exact art and federation, our techniques are identical, our philosophy is identical and our methods of training are ALMOST universal.  I disagree with my seniors all the time, but I don't actually debate them on it because I feel that maybe their 20 years in my martial art has garnered them some wisdom and knowledge I don't know about, not to mention a little respect from me.  Of course I could be wrong about their wisdom but I always give them the benefit of the doubt.

Anyway Marginal..... take my posting however you like, I could be wrong about your instructor and maybe this is just all you going out and forming opinions based on your own research and not what he is telling you.  Either way you need to curb your "know it all" attitude if you don't have more to back it up when debating with an instructor in your own art.  Students like you are usually led to the door with a firm handshake and a goodbye.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


----------



## Marginal

I'm now somewhat confused. I'm supposed to ignore what my instructors say, but another instructor I'm supposed to listen to without question. (Puts me in a rather strange spot...) That's the problem with a "carefully" baited trap...

I have not been told that my school is superior to others, nor has this been implied while I'm training. But of course, as I'm incapable of forming an opinion on my own, this thought was probably programmed in by my instructors as well. (Sigh) If anything, this has to do with me reading on some TKD history. How did an art with sweeps etc manage to overlook counters to low kicks? I'm honestly curious.

There's not a good deal of  vehemence going on here. I'm simply looking for clarification. Are the techniques there, or are they not? So far, all I've been told is that they're not taught. But that's not always the same thing.


----------



## Damian Mavis

Alright lets take this down a notch.  I was angry for 2 reasons, one was because it seemed like you were coming from one of the many schools that literally brainwashes its students and the other reason was because you appeared to be one of those "keen" students that thinks they know more than they actually do.  You came on this board telling people that are far more experienced and educated in this martial art that they were wrong and you were right.  Kind of an extremely annoying thing to listem to coming from someone with 8 months of training and some information from a book.  If I'm completely wrong about you then I apologise.  I'm speaking this way to you now because you are asking questions instead of telling me what you think is the truth..... even if your questions are setting off my sarcastimetre into the red zone.


" How did an art with sweeps etc manage to overlook counters to low kicks? I'm honestly curious."

Good question, I'm assuming you mean sweeps from the encyclopedia?  Even if you mean the sweeps that came from the karate that TKD was based on you still have to wrap your head around the almighty fact that the karate and the encyclopedia both have many elements that were never universally taught and promoted.  I've visited many ITF schools and talked with students and instructors from all over and sweeps, leg kicks and defences against leg kicks are not trained.  By trained I mean trained regularly... if your shown a leg sweep once in 10 years and never get to practice it in class again that does not count.  If your school is teaching sweeps regularly it could be because your instructor is actually taking something from the encyclopedia (wish I had a copy on me at the moment) and teaching it or he learned it from another art or his instructor learned it from another art and is teaching it.  If your instructor doesn't teach sweeps than I don't understand why you even asked that question.  If one out of a thousand ITF schools is teaching it I do not think it is part of the art even if its in the book.  

Its very important you understand something, if I throw a leg kick at just about ANY person who only trains in ITF TKD they will fail to react appropriately.  That is what happens when you do not train regularly for a certain situation i.e leg kick.  If I throw that same kick at his torso.. guess what?  He will easily block and or evade that kick because that is what he trains for on a regular basis.  You cant look at a book and say "well gee! looky here at the picture! if anyone ever kicks me in the leg I'll just crescent kick it to the side and I'll have defended myself!"  This is the whole basis of my argument, to actually be a part of a martial art it has to be practiced hour after hour just like all the other fundamental principles in that art.  You know that wrist lock your instructor taught you that one time 6 months ago?  Stuff like that is garbage, why waste your time with teaching it to you once and then never touch it again for years to come... that technique is garbage because it will never actually come into play in a street defence situation considering it isnt ingrained into your brain as a natural fighting movement from hours of practice and use.  Therefore wristlocks are not part of TKD.

Lets look at Thai boxers, you throw your hardest, fastest round kick at their leg and they simply lift their knee and block it without even realising what they've done, its instinct from having that same kick thrown over and over at them.  Throw the same kick at an ITF TKD artist with no other experience and they almost always fail to even register the kick is coming because it is going to a place the never trained to defend from.

It seems you are under the impression that TKD is a complete art full of valuable techniques to thwart any attack of any kind.  This is simply not true.  All arts are limitted and have their weaknesses, ITF TKD is definately not an exception.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


----------



## Rob_Broad

After reading the posts lately between Marginal and Damian Mavis,  I am a little intrigued at what will be said next.  As a person with some ITF and WTF training along side my primary art, I have my opinons on what has been said.  First, Marginal, you should listen to what people have to say a little more before becoming defensive.  Damian Mavis, I know it is hard to remember looking at the journey through a beginner's eyes.  Their passion is what keeps most arts alive.

many people now consider TKD to be a martial sport rather than a martial art.  I know that thee are many federations out there for TKD (like most other arts).  Even if you are following the encyclopedia there are many things that are not taught at most schools.  Unless a basic and or principle is stressed constantly it is useless.  Being an American Kenpo practioner primarily I know and have seen a lot of self defense techniques.  Some work anytime, but many do not, they are based on antiquated theories and have not evolved.

All I can say is look for as much positive material you can and discard the negative, there is too much negativity in the world to be griping over who does this and who does that.


----------



## Damian Mavis

Actually Marginal and I took it to private emails and we both understand eachother now and I personally respect his opinion and like him, he's a good guy.  I think he's going to have an exciting trip down the path of his martial arts evolution and I envy him in that I kinda wish I could start all over again just to experience things for the first time again. 

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


----------



## Marginal

Yeah, once we got down to talking calmly, the debate at hand became much clearer to me. I regret that I had to get off on such a wrong foot with a good guy...


----------



## sweeper

*sigh* an otherwise entertaining argument was braught to an abrupt end due to people being reasonable. What is the online Martial Arts community comming to?


----------



## Marginal

Well, there's always rec.martial-arts if you absolutely need unreasonable.


----------



## J-kid

2 reasons why TKD is made fun of./ as a M A  

 first and formost there best aspect is there kicking but sicne most street fights end up with people swinging punchs it leaves the tkd person in trouble.also grapplers have a easy time with people in TKD they dont have any ground work once there down. ( there down for the count)

second alot of schools that do tkd suck in the us.  My friend take TKD and his second school he went to packed up overnight and left after getting the money and some schools give out Belts like candy on halloween  .    

 Just somthing for you to chew on


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Marginal _
> 
> *Well, there's always rec.martial-arts if you absolutely need unreasonable.*



Heh. Yup. You might have better luck in alt.martial-arts.*, e.g. alt.martial-arts.tae-kwon-do and the lesser-used alt.martial-arts.tae-kwon.do (yes, a typo in the group name). See groups.google.com for those without newsgroup access.


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## sweeper

yeah I used to go through those, there actualy are some good posts every once in a wial... But it takes ALOT of time to find them.


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *2 reasons why TKD is made fun of./ as a M A
> 
> first and formost there best aspect is there kicking but sicne most street fights end up with people swinging punchs it leaves the tkd person in trouble.also grapplers have a easy time with people in TKD they dont have any ground work once there down. ( there down for the count)
> 
> second alot of schools that do tkd suck in the us.  My friend take TKD and his second school he went to packed up overnight and left after getting the money and some schools give out Belts like candy on halloween  .
> 
> Just somthing for you to chew on *



1. Yeah Right.  Try  to be on the receiving end of a TKD kick. Then let's see if you will still say the same thing again.

2. Your friend picks the wrong schools. Those schools suck. Not TKD itself.


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## sweeper

I have been kicked in the head many times by a TKD practitioner, it wasn't realy all that bad..  dislocated my jaw but it wasn't as bad as getting punched by him


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## fissure

Judo-kid, to your second statement- very true ,there are MANY 'bad' TKD schools in the US.There are many bad ______ ( insert stlye) schools in the US also.
To your first point- I have broken 7 half inch boards (duck taped together for the holders sake) with a reverse punch. While this may not seem like much of an accomplishment to a karate yellow belt- it was pretty good for helpless little TKD guy.By the way, I assume that your 'ground work' comes from your Judo training - not your Karate practise.So your point about TKD could also be made in reference to the Karate you take.
The first MA I trained in was Judo (for 3 yrs.),and a more incomplete art I have not been able to find! As you continue with your studies of MA you will probably find thar most Arts have 'holes' in them, that can be 'patched' with other stlyes.This is true of TKD- but no more so than the arts you list in your profile.
Just a few things for you to chew on.:EG:


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## artful dodger

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> also grapplers have a easy time with people in TKD they dont have any ground work once there down. ( there down for the count)
> 
> 
> Problem is, most fights start STANDING UP, so unless the grappler knows their stuff better than their opponent knows theirs there isn't going to be a "down for the count". ITS NOT THE ART ITS THE PRACTITIONER. Different arts have different (and often very similar techniques) and its very easy to find holes in all of them. Different people and different body types suit different arts. The more important thing is how well you know and can execute your own style.
> 
> Train hard,
> Artful Dodger


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by fissure _
> 
> *The first MA I trained in was Judo (for 3 yrs.),and a more incomplete art I have not been able to find! *



Bear in mind that judo includes atemi, self-defense, etc., but almost all schools only teach 'sport judo'. Judging judo by sport judo is like judging TKD by tournament schools.


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## sweeper

fissure, Look at judo kid's posts on the genneral board, his perspective on things is simular to yours, the reason he trains in what he does is to fill in the various holes his various arts have.


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## Damian Mavis

judo kid generalises a wee bit too much.  And whats up with that school that packed up and took all the money..... uh that wasnt a TKD school, that was a scam posing as a TKD school to steal peoples money.  Judging TKD based on one criminals activities is pretty silly.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## J-kid

Ok to clear some things up for you/
Number 1 i am a good stand up fighter and practice standing fighting and ground fighting and train at 2 schools

Number 2  Breaking boards is diffrent from breaking ribs/bones etc
First off your bones bend somewhat and are flexable like the ribs
Breaking boards  your breaking a peace of OLD DRY wood
If you know anything about wood you know wood dos not bend and usally you have it posted agaist or held up so you can kick it.  Now I have been kicked by diffrent people some being black belts and yes i did get kicked hard .  But was i hurt No  Was disabled No
and did i still do the take down
YES!
                            Listen TDk dosnt have the strongest kicks i am not saying there kicks are weak but throw a Kick boxer in with A tdk guy and say good nite tdk guy.    Just somthing For you to slip on.                                
                     Your friend Judo-Kid


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## white dragon

You know being able to kick someone and not do them real damage is called "control"... I'll understand if this is an alien subject to you though.


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## fissure

Original post by Judo-kid:





> first and formost there best aspect is there kicking but sicne most street fights end up with people swinging punchs it leaves the tkd person in trouble.


 Hence my reference to punching.No boards are not the same as ribs, but weak punchers can't do much with either.
Just because you have 'taken' kicks from the green belts you hane fought, do you beleive there is no one anywhere who could harm you with a kicking tech,?
Sweeper -





> fissure, Look at judo kid's posts on the genneral board, his perspective on things is simular to yours, the reason he trains in what he does is to fill in the various holes his various arts have.


Indeed, but I don't go to the Kempo board and tell them how there art is poor. I have no experience with Kempo and would not presume to comment on the art, that they have spent years or decades traing in.
I should (and have in other forums) taken his age and lack of experience into consideration. but I will always take offence at blanket statements such as he makes.


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## Damian Mavis

Id like to restate my previous position.....judo kid generalises way too much.

I've broken ribs....I've knocked people out.... with kicks......and all before I joined Muay Thai!  I refuse to believe I am the only TKD artist capable of such things but if you want to stroke my ego and tell me I'm the only one in TKD that can you go right ahead!

p.s. the few times I've broken someones ribs it was an accident, I wasn't even focusing my power.  When I have broken boards it has taken all my focus and concentration.  The only reason I state this is because you have a strange idea of the strength of human ribs.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## white dragon

No, you're not the only one, unless we're the only two people doing TKD that have? It's true, ribs break easy, not as easy as boards, but still snapping them is never as hard as you'd think.


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## Damian Mavis

aww cmon...let me have my illusions of grandeur... I was starting to think I was a super ninja.

wait, wait... I can still salvage my fantasy.... YOU AND I are super ninjas, ya thats right. We are the only ones obviously and by dumbluck we have encountered eachother.  Nice to meet you fellow super ninja who there are only 2 of in the world!


Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## white dragon

Brother! All this time I've walked the lands, thinking I was alone. Oh happy day! We can be like that film and computer game, double dragon... but I get to be Mark Dacascos, you can be the guy from party of five. no wait that means you've kissed jennifer love hewitt. oh I'm so confussed. Being a super ninja is hard sometimes...


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## fissure

I think you two are more like Goko and Krillin from Dragonball.Your super powers are probably beyond comprehension 
I have competed in many USTU tournaments.Even with opponents wearing chest protectors, I have droppped dozens of opponents.These are Black belt adults at State and National levels.Maybe if you guys let me I could be a third 'super TKD' dude, of course I would'nt be qiute on your level - maybe your slow clumsey side kick or something:EG:


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## white dragon

hmmm, well maybe, you can be the side kick character, every hero needs one, plus when they make the action figures of us you can be included in the delux edition boxset. All we need now is a catch phrase and a theme tune.

What's a UTSU by the way?


----------



## fissure

United States Taekwon do Union.The American 'branch' of the WTF.The USTU is the only ORG. recognized in the US by the IOC, for the purpose of selecting the American Olympic team.
How about the "TKD trio" or maybe "Fantatic Fighting Thresome"- 'Triple F' for short.


----------



## fissure

We are getting away from the point I was trying to make , but -





> Bear in mind that judo includes atemi, self-defense, etc., but almost all schools only teach 'sport judo'. Judging judo by sport judo is like judging TKD by tournament schools.


In the 3 Judo dojo I have been associated with ( keep in mind this was 20 + yrs ago !), I never saw a strike of any kind used.I was not aware that real Judo was a more complete art.I stand corrected.I try to never even comment (especially negatively), on MAs I don't have  extensive experience in.If I have done so in this case  -I appologise. :asian:


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## hand2handCombat

TKD SUCKS BECAUSE I PRACTICE 5 DIFFERENT MA AND THEY ALL BEAT TKD. 

i fought tkd ppl, they suck!!!!

dont know why the art is so famous, maybe cuz it sucks so much.


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## fissure

> TKD SUCKS BECAUSE I PRACTICE 5 DIFFERENT MA AND THEY ALL BEAT TKD.





> i fought tkd ppl, they suck!!!!





> dont know why the art is so famous, maybe cuz it sucks so much


It's so nice to meet classy open minded people like yourself.
Next time your in Florida, make sure you let me know so you can stop by and show me how much I suck.Jack asses such as yourself are the reason ADULTS often leave message boards, we just get tired of big mouthed little piss-ants like you.


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## white dragon

"Jack of all trades, master of none." and a complete c*&t to boot it seems. Thanks for your valid input there.


----------



## arnisador

Everyone:
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-


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## fissure

> Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful


 arnisador, If I go to the Kempo (or any other 'stlye' forum) and tell them that they and their art suck, should I not expect to have my nose bloodied?


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Yes, thats a fair expectaion.  We just don't want this thread (which has a lot of good, useful content) to turn into a flamefest. I've personally enjoyed the information in here, and would rather see everyone focus on that. 



Couple of things to keep in mind when someone decides to 'flame':
1- dont feed the trolls/fire
2- use the 'report to moderator' function.
3- use the "ignore user" feature.

:asian:


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## white dragon

I'm annoyed that I can so easily forget about the whole "self control" thing. Sorry for speaking out of line, let's just hope we hear no more from that particular troll.


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by fissure _
> 
> *
> arnisador, If I go to the Kempo (or any other 'stlye' forum) and tell them that they and their art suck, should I not expect to have my nose bloodied? *



Yes, that would be a reasonable expectation, though we could always hope for a better response! Bear in mind that the note was directed to all participants in the thread--not to anyone in particular. The purpose is not to discourage you from discussing this, or even from expressing your outrage, but rather to remind everyone to maintain a certain level of decorum. If you feel someone has overstepped the bounds, please report it to a moderator.

In other words, feel free to bloody a nose, but don't rip off an arm! When it gets to that point call a bouncer instead.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-


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## fissure

> I'm annoyed that I can so easily forget about the whole "self control" thing. Sorry for speaking out of line, let's just hope we hear no more from that particular troll.


You seemed fairly controlled to me white dragon.I know I was.I have qiute an impressive vocabulary of obsene and derogatory comments that, if I were uncontrolled and had used, would probably gotten me banned! I'm quite proud of my self control!


----------



## white dragon

I guess that's just my polite English nature for you


----------



## fissure

> I guess that's just my polite English nature for you


I hate to burst your bubble, but I'm English too.Maybe being around all these Americans for so long has tarnished my polite and humble manner!:EG:


----------



## white dragon

Curse those damn yankies!  Where abouts in England are you from?


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## fissure

I was born in Tooting, London. I lived in Crawley, Sussex - seems like a hundred years ago.


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## Damian Mavis

I responded to judo guy because he had comments that could be discussed, I wont respond to hand2handcombat because hes just being ridiculous and most likely joking.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## sweeper

ok well I don't practice TKD but I tihnk I should hop in for a second, Judo kid, Kicking is REALY easy..  take a totaly unskilled person and have them kcik you in the shin full force and even with their biomechanicly incorrect form they are gona do some dammage, maybe even fracture your shin (if they have shoes on).

Now take anyone who actualy practices kicking, I don't care who the heck they are, they are gona be able to do some dammage, the guy that kicked you was either holding back or a total moron.

Now to the rib thing, bones are flexable pluss people tend to pull back or walk into blows wich makes breaking them unpredictable, you can't compare breaking wood to breaking bones (with the posable exception of your shin) because the situations are so vastly diffrent, a person could walk into a gentel kick and break a rib or flinch from a power kick ond not break one..


For those of you who have broken ribs I'm curious was it a break or were they seperated ribs?


----------



## white dragon

They were actual cracks along the ribs from a turning kick, it's hard but it's something us super ninjas have to live with. The kick was actually against a good friend, ho at the time wasn't such a good friend and there was drink involved and I'd rather the situation hadn't happened, but it's reasuring to know my kicks are effective outside the dojang as well as in. 

fissure - ahhh, I have fond memories of Tooting as I used to go out with a girl from them. Why on earth did you leave London? Sussex I can understand, but London...???


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## hand2handCombat

im very sorrry.. i got very mad thinking about that tkd guy who attacked me. check out that post on General Martial Talk. verry sorry. got carried away.


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## arnisador

We're all going to get upset from time to time about things that excite us and are important to us like the arts. Being able to cool down and make nice as people here are doing (on all sides) is the mark of adult, intelligent debate!


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## fissure

My parents just would'nt listen to reason - then again who really listens to a 3 yr old?:EG:


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## Humble artist

Thanks a BUNCH for EVERYONE´s replies.
I have been off this site for a notable amount of time so I could not have replied,I got back couple of days ago.
I have not read all the posts yet,but I´ll slowly start checking them out (kind of a gigantic thread this became)
Thanks again.

:asian:


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Humble artist _
> 
> *I´m not TKD pracitioner myself,even though I respect it as "one of the arts":shrug:   honestly,I do.
> I wonder why so many non-TKD practitioners seem to hate TKD,always saying how bad it is-how so many schools suck ("to this day I haven´t seen one good school") How it´s ineffective and so on.
> I´ve even seen threads like "Is TKD any good...`?"
> I can´t say i would know very much about it but I think that I do have "the basics down" in a way or another.
> I guess it is quite a same thing when it comes to aikido (another widely misunderstood art) So many to blame,at least this is how I see it.Trough these black glasses
> :ubercool:
> So...?
> :asian: *


1.  They've never seen it in its true form (All they've seen is sport style)
2.  So many bad schools
3.  Commercialized, works with #2
4.  Are bad at it and don't want to get better
5.  Military style hurts too much (very few people study military TKD)


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> 
> *
> 1.  They've never seen it in its true form (All they've seen is sport style)*



How do you mean 'true form'? Sport _is_ a legitimate aspect of TKD, sin't it?

Do you have a URL for military TKD?


----------



## karatekid1975

Arnis wrote:

"Do you have a URL for military TKD?"

Good question. I like to know, too.


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## Humble artist

Thanks guys.

"1. They've never seen it in its true form (All they've seen is sport style)
2. So many bad schools
3. Commercialized, works with #2
4. Are bad at it and don't want to get better
5. Military style hurts too much (very few people study military TKD)"

I see.I´ve asked a similar question in another forum in the past and besides what you say,there was a note that it includes bizarre techniques,"statue of liberty axe kick" was included.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> How do you mean 'true form'? Sport is a legitimate aspect of TKD, sin't it?
> 
> Do you have a URL for military TKD? *


Legititimate aspect of it, yes, but for self-defense?  I think a lot of people are bad-mouthing because they had a bad experience with sport people thinking it would work on the street.

URL, well, search around.  There is this one tape, from 1979, which shows military TKD.  It's just basically full-contact sparring and you will see how different they fight.

Best bet is actually go to South Korea and look for a knowledgeable instructor where you can be a "disciple" in a way.



> Tae Kwon-Do indicates the technique of unarmed combat for self defence purposes, involving the skilled application of punches, kicks, blocks, dodges and interceptions with the hand, arms and feet to the rapid destruction of the opponent.



To see a few techniques of it, get Streetfighting Essentials.  The author is a hapkido/TKD practitioner and the techniques shown in the book are of military TKD/hapkido.


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Humble artist _
> 
> *Thanks guys.
> 
> "1. They've never seen it in its true form (All they've seen is sport style)
> 2. So many bad schools
> 3. Commercialized, works with #2
> 4. Are bad at it and don't want to get better
> 5. Military style hurts too much (very few people study military TKD)"
> 
> I see.I´ve asked a similar question in another forum in the past and besides what you say,there was a note that it includes bizarre techniques,"statue of liberty axe kick" was included.
> 
> 
> *


axe kick?  Yes, it is a technique mainly to develop elascity and flexibility.  Though I have used that technique a couple times though.  Statue of Liberty?  Sounds commercialized.


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## Damian Mavis

"axe kick? Yes, it is a technique mainly to develop elascity and flexibility."

heh, one of my students nailed another student in the face with axe kick and he had to get a steel plate put into his face to keep his eye from sinking into his head.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> 
> * To see a few techniques of it, get Streetfighting Essentials.  The author is a hapkido/TKD practitioner and the techniques shown in the book are of military TKD/hapkido. *



IS this the one ?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...32656/sr=11-1/ref=sr_11_1/102-1116228-7261733


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## Damian Mavis

Come to think about it.... Martial artist, I think your statement of the axe kick mainly being used to develop flexibility is meant to apply to front rising kick which is simply throwing your leg straight up and down in front of you to stretch the hamstrings.  The axe kick is a staple of TKD used to knock out and break through defenses.  It's hard to defend from because it comes down from directly overhead... I almost always successfully hit my target when sparring in Muay Thai and I use that kick, most of them do not learn to defend from that angle.  It's my secret weapon I bust out if things are going bad heh.  Works like a charm.... until I do it so many times they finally recognise it when they see it and learn to block it.  Hope that never happens!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## fissure

I have twice seen compound fractures of the collar bone as a result of axe kicks.Broken noses are a blessing compared to this!:EG:


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## fissure

Oh, the  Statue of Liberty thing sounds like something an imaginative instructor came up with for a kiddy class - I've never heard of such a thing.


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *Come to think about it.... Martial artist, I think your statement of the axe kick mainly being used to develop flexibility is meant to apply to front rising kick which is simply throwing your leg straight up and down in front of you to stretch the hamstrings.  The axe kick is a staple of TKD used to knock out and break through defenses.  It's hard to defend from because it comes down from directly overhead... I almost always successfully hit my target when sparring in Muay Thai and I use that kick, most of them do not learn to defend from that angle.  It's my secret weapon I bust out if things are going bad heh.  Works like a charm.... until I do it so many times they finally recognise it when they see it and learn to block it.  Hope that never happens!
> 
> Damian Mavis
> Honour TKD *


I have used the axe kick in tournaments, but I rarely do not use it when challenged during class or self-defense situations.  A trained person can use a simple retreat to get away from it and I just find the timing for it much more difficult than for something like say, a straight.  Another thing though is a powerful axe kick does take some time to "get back on balance" which doesn't really have to do with balance but getting back on your feet.  No matter how quick you are, the time to recover would be longer than even a power side (thrust w/ snap) kick.  That's just for me.


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## Damian Mavis

Hey Martial artist, anything thrown on the street should be at the "expert level".  I know what you mean by off balnce and slow and whatnot but.... if you cant throw axe kick lightning fast and with bone shattering power and perfect balance then you have no business throwing that kick to defend yourself. (and I don't mean you when I say you I mean everyone in general)  That is how I feel about all techniques, if you've got a slow sloppy weak round kick from Muay Thai than don't use that to defend yourself, use whatever other weapons or techniques you can do fast and hard enough to be realistic.  

I think alot of people (not you in particular) learn a technique and maybe never see it executed at a high level of competence and never fully realise it's effectiveness and figure that technique just plain sucks.  I know a ton of techniques I suck at but have seen others use on the street with explosive power and speed and knock someone out instantly.  And I'm standing there thinking "damn... if I had tried to use that technique it would be me lying on the ground right now".  Simply because I haven't trained that technique to a realistic level of competence to use for any kind of street defence and be successful.    Anyway, just rambling my thoughts on the matter.

By the way, don't forget to tell us all about your training in Thailand in the Muay Thai section! I really want to know all about it.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## MartialArtist

I didn't train in Thailand extensively.  I was there visiting the sights when I was visiting Korea for my family.  Hey, if I'm in South Korea, why not go to other places while you're at it?  Like going to Germany but not going to places like France.

Even the axe kick done at expert level, I feel that there are more oppourtunities to perform something as simple as a jab than an axe kick.


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## Damian Mavis

Well like I said earlier, one of my students crushed another students face with an axe kick and he had to get a steel plate put into his face to keep his eye from sinking into his head.... you don't get that kind of power and destruction from a jab.... but why would you want to cause that much destruction?!  Guess its there if you need it.

Now about South Korea.... heh, after I train in Thailand for a few weeks I'm going to South Korea for a couple of weeks to train in TKD.  Any advice or tips about were to go to train?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## MartialArtist

Look for a military school.  A lot of them are private and are not affiliated to organizations like the WTF.  You see, although they train A LOT HARDER in Korea than in the states, there are many versions.  Some train for combat, others for sport.  Seoul would be a good place for a sport style version.  Pusan and Taejon are good for military styles.


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## Damian Mavis

Thankyou, my concern was that almost all of them are sport schools.  But I'll keep those other places in mind.  I don't mind training at a sport school but I'm really hoping to train and spar with some serious *** kickers.  

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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