# Ninjas still around today?



## TallAdam85 (Jun 12, 2003)

Hello Everyone
I am just putting this post on cause I love Ninja's!
Ok I am not talking about ninja fighting methods I am talking about the sneaky ness and assassin methods would they still work with all of today technology. I think it is to good cause if we had ninja's still we could have hired them to get Bin Ladden LOL but just my opinion do you think with all this high tech stuff Ninja escapes and surprise will still work with things like cameras alarms and more

Don't get me wrong I love Ninja's and learn about them.

Adam :asian:


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## heretic888 (Jun 12, 2003)

oh lord....


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## yilisifu (Jun 13, 2003)

Modern ninjas go by several different titles today; SEALS, Airborne Rangers....


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## tonbo (Jun 13, 2003)

> Modern ninjas go by several different titles today; SEALS, Airborne Rangers....



Well said!!!

TallAdam, remember what ninjas were during their time period:  they were the special forces, used for reconnaissance and special operations.  They were used to do the jobs that required skills above those of the normal fighting man.

Ever seen any spec ops group training?  It's pretty darned impressive.  The things these guys can do honestly amazes me.  My brother spent 8 years as an Army Ranger, and I'll swear to this day that he and other spec ops guys could give any ninja a run for their money.

Yes, Virginia, ninjas do still exist.  So do samurai.  They just wear different clothes now.  Oh, and you can't see the ninja, 'cuz they wouldn't be ninja if you could, now would they?   

Peace--


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## gozanryu (Jun 13, 2003)

*BUT !*   We all know that the ORIGINAL Ninjas had WAY better outfits and gear!!!:boing2:


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## tonbo (Jun 13, 2003)

Better gear?  Well, their knives were a bit longer, but.....

Have you *seen* some of the cool stuff spec ops guys get to use?   

'Course, I gotta admit that the original ninjas had cooler booties.... 

Peace--


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## gozanryu (Jun 13, 2003)

Better gear hell! How does night vision or a Squad Automatic Weapon compare to Blinding Powder or Shuriken. You better watch out! Sho Kushugi is watching.


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## tonbo (Jun 13, 2003)

Flash-Bang grenade = Blinding powder
Throwing knives = shuriken

But, I do bow humbly.  I mean, really!!  Master Sho!!

:asian:   :asian:   :asian:   :asian: 

I'll say this:  spec ops gots cool toys.......but traditional ninja toys have a bit more "romance" to 'em.  Guns are just so....impersonal.

 

Peace--


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## yilisifu (Jun 13, 2003)

Yes, but the retirement policy for the original ninjas was pretty crummy.


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## MartialArtist (Jun 15, 2003)

Like everything said above...

However, one thing is that ninjas were not expert hand-to-hand fighters (which is comparable to the SEALs, Airborne SF, etc.).  Yeah, SF get hand-to-hand training, but most aren't experts in that field.  The experts in the field got most of their training elsewhere.


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## heretic888 (Jun 16, 2003)

> Modern ninjas go by several different titles today; SEALS, Airborne Rangers....



Ummmm......



> TallAdam, remember what ninjas were during their time period: they were the special forces, used for reconnaissance and special operations. They were used to do the jobs that required skills above those of the normal fighting man.



Although there are a few superficial similarities between the feudal ninja and modern Special Ops, there are also many fundamental differences. People in the military generally have a choice as to their careers; the ninja did not, they were born into their 'profession' hoping to protect their families in an unstable time. The Special Ops are agents of the government; the ninja, although allied with the 'government' (such as the Tokugawa shogunate) from time to time, were more like independent groups of semi-vigilantes. Special Ops are under restrictions from national and international laws of warfare; the ninja were not, doing what they had to to protect their families and interests. A Special Ops soldier acts as the tool of his government and is expected to comply with his orders to the letter; ninja had much more freedom in their missions and were themselves expected to rely on things like 'intuition' and 'natural justice' and 'flow', not just follow orders. There is also an underlying 'spiritual' basis to Ninpo practice; there is no such basis in modern military training. Ninja training is also far less 'specialized' than military approaches.

Obviously, they have more differences than they do similarities.



> My brother spent 8 years as an Army Ranger, and I'll swear to this day that he and other spec ops guys could give any ninja a run for their money.



It probably depends on the individual.



> Yes, Virginia, ninjas do still exist. So do samurai. They just wear different clothes now.



'Ninja' still exist (if we are being flexible here). Samurai do not.



> I'll say this: spec ops gots cool toys.......but traditional ninja toys have a bit more "romance" to 'em. Guns are just so....impersonal.



Wouldn't a 'modern' ninja use modern weaponry??



> However, one thing is that ninjas were not expert hand-to-hand fighters (which is comparable to the SEALs, Airborne SF, etc.).



  Ninpo Taijutsu, Kosshijutsu, Koppojutsu, Shitojutsu. Ever heard of 'em?? The ninja were pretty damn good at hand-to-hand, definitely a step above the average fighters of their day (which they had to be by necessity).


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## Jill666 (Jun 16, 2003)

I'm an aspiring modern ninja and I use guns. 

I also would consider getting shot highly personal.


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## Bujingodai (Jun 16, 2003)

Pretty funny when it turns into a pissing contest eh?

I would also agree that it depends on the individual. However I would be of the opinion that Ninjutsu as rule is not really a toe to toe art. More clandestine than that more evasionary. Just in my experience and reading. A truly trained Samurai in the frontal confrontation would shred the Shinobi down pretty easily. But this is not the situation the Shinobi would put himself in right, or hope to. This is of course only an opinion and what I was taught.


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## heretic888 (Jun 16, 2003)

> Pretty funny when it turns into a pissing contest eh?



Yup.  



> However I would be of the opinion that Ninjutsu as rule is not really a toe to toe art.



I suppose that depends on what you mean by 'Ninjutsu'.



> More clandestine than that more evasionary.



Sounds like the perfect toe-to-toe art to me. 



> A truly trained Samurai in the frontal confrontation would shred the Shinobi down pretty easily.



I suppose... if it was a fully armored samurai vs. a shinobi with nothing but his cheap ninja-to. Then again, a little mutodori could quickly change the pace of the battle. Besides ninja, by necessity, had to be capable of defeating several samurai at once to escape from their situation and report their intelligence back to their clan.... which, ironically enough, makes it perfect for modern day self-defense. In any event, ninja would have to have been much better-trained than the average samurai if they had any hope of living a long life (they were rarely armed to the teeth, and rarely had numbers to their advantage).



> I also would consider getting shot highly personal.


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## yilisifu (Jun 16, 2003)

Ninja specialized is camoflouge, disguise, and concealment for one main reason...not to get caught in a face-to-face confrontation with samurai.

And...samurai DO still exist.  If you don't think so, you need to visit Japan.


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## heretic888 (Jun 16, 2003)

> Ninja specialized is camoflouge, disguise, and concealment for one main reason...not to get caught in a face-to-face confrontation with samurai.



That wasn't from a lack of combat ability, it was due to using your brain to think clearly. Why take stupid risks??

Oh, and specialization?? Well... let's look at the one ninjutsu ryuha we know much about: Togakure-ryu. It studies... spiritual refinement, taijutsu, swords, staffs, horsemanship, throwing blades, spears and halberds, chained and corded weaponry, explosives, smoke, and firearms, espionage, strategy, meteorology, geography, stealth and entering techniques, escape and evasion methods, underwater tactics, disguise and impersonations......

Yeah, sounds real specialized to me.



> And...samurai DO still exist. If you don't think so, you need to visit Japan.



Ahem. Bushi was a social caste. Nothing more. With the Meiji Restoration, that caste ceased to exist.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 16, 2003)

Tall Adam 85:  Everything you need to know about modern Ninjas can be found on this website:  Please do not try the Seppuku method pictured on this site unless you have the proper training.  http://www.realultimatepower.net/


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## Bujingodai (Jun 16, 2003)

Yes that is an excellent example of what a Ninja Cowboy is these days, what a great site. Ugh.

But yet turning into a pretty good discussion.


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## Jill666 (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> * And...samurai DO still exist.  If you don't think so, you need to visit Japan. *



An interesting statement- can you elaborbate? :asian:


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## Jill666 (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Tall Adam 85:  Everything you need to know about modern Ninjas can be found on this website:  Please do not try the Seppuku method pictured on this site unless you have the proper training.  http://www.realultimatepower.net/ *



Oh, brother- yeah, I've seen this site. 

CHAK would be proud.


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## tonbo (Jun 17, 2003)

Uh....everything that I have said regarding ninja, singular or plural, is not meant to be taken as anything other than statments made with tongue planted firmly in my cheek.

It's called humor, folks, and although my sense of humor may not always come across, I don't mean to get wrapped up in an argument about "modern" ninja, samurai, or how ninja compare to the special forces.

I was having a good time with this thread, nothing more.  Ninja are ninja (or *were*, depending on your side of the argument), and special forces are special forces.  Nothing *exactly* equates, obviously, as there are always differences in circumstances, era, blah, blah, blah.

Sheesh.   Never mind.....I'll just go get a ninja costume, and some of those videos online, and start hiring myself out..... 

Peace and all that--


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 17, 2003)

Tonbo:  You have offended the Ninjas!  They will find you and kill you!  You can't run, you can't hide.  Bullet-proof vests can stop Shuriken though.


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## The Psycho Guy (Jun 17, 2003)

> I think it is to good cause if we had ninja's still we could have hired them to get Bin Ladden


If we knew where he was, I'm pretty sure any assassination technique would work...doesn't have to be a ninjutsu one.  And ninja were not really "assassins."  But anyway, assassination is forbidden by the Geneva Convention, so I guess we won't anyway (though I guess a sniper may work).



> but just my opinion do you think with all this high tech stuff Ninja escapes and surprise will still work with things like cameras alarms and more


Probably not...the techniques were made for Feudal Japan, not modern day America (or wherever you live).  One would have to learn modern techniques and security systems if one wanted to learn how to do that stuff.



> Yes, Virginia, ninjas do still exist. So do samurai.


How do samurai exist?



> I'll say this: spec ops gots cool toys.......but traditional ninja toys have a bit more "romance" to 'em. Guns are just so....impersonal.


I'd say that any modern warrior would approach gunmanship training as the traditional warrior approached swordsmanship training.  In other words, MAKE it (the guns) personal. 

As for ninja being Special Forces...I do agree to an extent, but for the most part, what heretic888 said.



> I'm an aspiring modern ninja and I use guns.


Me too!  A quick question though...what do you think one would have to learn or do to qualify as a "ninja" nowadays?



> A truly trained Samurai in the frontal confrontation would shred the Shinobi down pretty easily.


Like with the Special Forces and ninja comparison, it probably depends on the individual, but I'm of the opinion (personally) that it would be the other way around, in most cases.



> And...samurai DO still exist. If you don't think so, you need to visit Japan.


Again, just wondering, how exactly do samurai exist if their class was taken out of Japan's system?



> Bullet-proof vests can stop Shuriken though.


Not all the time.  My friend Mark once thought that, and the ninjas threw a shuriken and it cut his head off!!!


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## heretic888 (Jun 17, 2003)

> Uh....everything that I have said regarding ninja, singular or plural, is not meant to be taken as anything other than statments made with tongue planted firmly in my cheek.



Hmmm..... does that make it any harder to type??  



> It's called humor, folks, and although my sense of humor may not always come across, I don't mean to get wrapped up in an argument about "modern" ninja, samurai, or how ninja compare to the special forces.



Well then, I guess it sucks to be you!  



> I was having a good time with this thread, nothing more. Ninja are ninja (or *were*, depending on your side of the argument), and special forces are special forces. Nothing *exactly* equates, obviously, as there are always differences in circumstances, era, blah, blah, blah.



Fo'shizzle.  



> Sheesh. Never mind.....I'll just go get a ninja costume, and some of those videos online, and start hiring myself out.....



Have fun with that. Be sure to give Mr. Hunter a good run for his 'hard-earned' money.  



> Peace and all that--



WAR!!!!!!



> If we knew where he was, I'm pretty sure any assassination technique would work...doesn't have to be a ninjutsu one.



Yup.



> And ninja were not really "assassins."



Oh, care to elaborate?? (That's what this thread was originally about anyways, I believe...)



> But anyway, assassination is forbidden by the Geneva Convention, so I guess we won't anyway (though I guess a sniper may work).



Yeah, and the US is such a stringent follower of international law.  

Heh. Ok, that was a cheap shot and not exactly that truthful either (I'm American, by the way). But still, I see nothing wrong with getting a little 'dirty' to take out a maniac like Bin Laden......



> Probably not...the techniques were made for Feudal Japan, not modern day America (or wherever you live). One would have to learn modern techniques and security systems if one wanted to learn how to do that stuff.



Ditto. Probably the funniest stereotype about the 'ninja' is that if they were still in the black ops game that they would be using 500 year old technologies against things like infrared detectors and the like. Please. They used state of the art back then and they would have used it now (thankfully, however, there is no longer a need for 'ninja' to involve themselves in such activities).



> How do samurai exist?



They don't. The samurai were nothing but a social caste. All castes were officially abolished with the Meiji Restoration (and even moreso with the American occupation). 'Bushido', per se, didn't even exist in its commonly understood form until the Tokugawa era. I think most of the modern ideas about both 'samurai' and 'ninja' are little more than romantic daydreaming from the Meiji Era literature.



> I'd say that any modern warrior would approach gunmanship training as the traditional warrior approached swordsmanship training. In other words, MAKE it (the guns) personal.



Ditto. Plus, guns can be fun (heh heh heh). 



> As for ninja being Special Forces...I do agree to an extent, but for the most part, what heretic888 said.



Woo hoo!! Yay for me!  



> Me too! A quick question though...what do you think one would have to learn or do to qualify as a "ninja" nowadays?



I seem to recall a certain quote from Hatsumi-soke that has been mentioned before.



> Like with the Special Forces and ninja comparison, it probably depends on the individual, but I'm of the opinion (personally) that it would be the other way around, in most cases.



Ditto again.



> Again, just wondering, how exactly do samurai exist if their class was taken out of Japan's system?



Good question.



> Not all the time. My friend Mark once thought that, and the ninjas threw a shuriken and it cut his head off!!!



Psssh. That's nothing a little ninjer magik can't fix. *starts chanting....'there is no spoon, there is no spoon'*


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## tonbo (Jun 17, 2003)

> Tonbo: You have offended the Ninjas! They will find you and kill you! You can't run, you can't hide. Bullet-proof vests can stop Shuriken though.



MAN!!  It's bad enough that I have Master Sho Kosugi out after me......now I have offended "the Ninjas"!!

I guess that I should hide when working at NinjaBurger, now.....no, wait, they will still find me.

Dang......there is just no way to stay out of trouble when it comes to ninja.  

Time to commit seppuku and save what honor I can!!

:rofl:  :asian: 

Peace --


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## Bujingodai (Jun 17, 2003)

Wow this thread is going nowhere. What was the point again?


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## heretic888 (Jun 17, 2003)

> Wow this thread is going nowhere. What was the point again?



Ummmm...... pissing each other off??


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## Bujingodai (Jun 17, 2003)

OH I was just making sure of that.

I for one totally agree that the "Ninja" were not just assasins. I hate the image that most have of the art. I also think that most that study the art think that the Ninja could create magic powder out of their asses, most were poorly trained operatives unfortunatly. But some were really incredible. Not all of them had the baffling knowledge of everything.

But in my opinion. Ninjutsu still incorperates more than any other art on the planet. IMO of course. I have yet to find arts that study water combat, tolerance exercises, practice in stealth etc etc. 
Gotto say that I love doing it.


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## heretic888 (Jun 17, 2003)

> OH I was just making sure of that.



Heh.  



> I for one totally agree that the "Ninja" were not just assasins. I hate the image that most have of the art.



Not that I am disagreeing with you, but how would you personally characterize the "ninja" then???



> I also think that most that study the art think that the Ninja could create magic powder out of their asses, most were poorly trained operatives unfortunatly.



This I would have to disagree with. The Ninja families, unlike many Daimyo, did not have scores upon scores of soldiers and operatives to hurl into danger. In addition, they were extremely limited in terms of economic and technological resources (although some of the gadgets and gimmicks they came up with were pure genius). 

Although we can never really know for sure (due to the lack of historical documentation), my guess is that each individual Ninja had to be afforded very in-depth training (and were most likely specialists of some ilk, although Ninjutsu itself is not a specializationn art). Very simply, the Ninja families just could not afford to have most of their operatives being 'poorly trained'.



> But some were really incredible. Not all of them had the baffling knowledge of everything.



This I would agree with.



> But in my opinion. Ninjutsu still incorperates more than any other art on the planet. IMO of course.



Of course.  



> I have yet to find arts that study water combat, tolerance exercises, practice in stealth etc etc.



Tolerance exercises?? Care to elaborate??? (I have the impression that 'body hardening' exercises are generally avoided in Ninpo circles, for good reason...)



> Gotto say that I love doing it.



Yup.


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## Bujingodai (Jun 17, 2003)

As for the school levels attained, well to be honest the Daimyo would have more $$$ so to speak to have them trained. All they did was train.
But that we can agree to disagree with.
The Ninja were assasin, messenger etc etc. I just meant they were not all assasin.
As for conditioning. Well here in Canada we have lots of snow, in the winter we may take a snow walk to work on the cold tolerance. This was something my old Shidoshi used to do. It was fun and your feet felt great afterwards.

And I would never change the art that I do.


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## heretic888 (Jun 18, 2003)

> As for the school levels attained, well to be honest the Daimyo would have more $$$ so to speak to have them trained.



Money wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with quality training. Generally speaking, large militaristic organizations with great amounts of economic resources tend to devote said resources on technologies, not on training and improving their personnel. Of course, it really comes down to the individual clan, ryuha, and person.

I personally am of the conviction that, by necessity, the ninja clans could not afford to send 'poorly trained' agents out into the field. They were so few in number and so short on resources that they simply could not allow such consequences to occur. Besides, on a personal note, I'd take Ninja no Taijutsu over conventional Samurai Bujutsu anyday of the week.  

In reality though, we can never really know, as there aren't exactly any historical records documenting this stuff.



> All they did was train.



Not necessarily. Bushi was a social position. To be a 'samurai' all one had to do was be born into the caste. You did not necessarily have to follow 'bushido' or receive any bugei training (although most probably did). 

Besides, I sincerely doubt that all they did was train in the first place. Unlike the ninja families, the samurai had certain social priorities and responsibilities that would interfere with their training. In any event, training more and training harder doesn't necessarily mean superior combat ability. Training better (quality over quantity) or training smarter would probably be the best approach to take (something I think the Ninja probably had as an advantage over the often-treated-as-cannon fodder Samurai).



> But that we can agree to disagree with.



Yup.  



> The Ninja were assasin, messenger etc etc. I just meant they were not all assasin.



Personally, I have been given the impression that first and foremost the Ninja was a gatherer (and interpreter) of intelligence and information. After all, knowledge is power. Although... desperate times call for desperate measures (and this includes assassinations).



> As for conditioning. Well here in Canada we have lots of snow, in the winter we may take a snow walk to work on the cold tolerance. This was something my old Shidoshi used to do. It was fun and your feet felt great afterwards.



Ah, I see. That sounds more like endurance training that straight-out 'body hardening' though. Very interesting.

Laterz.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bujingodai _
> *
> But in my opinion. Ninjutsu still incorperates more than any other art on the planet. IMO of course. I have yet to find arts that study water combat, tolerance exercises, practice in stealth etc etc.
> Gotto say that I love doing it. *



Not to mention First Aid, Wilderness Survial, Rope Use,  Heck, Modern Ninjas are like Grown Up Boy Scouts with Katanas!  We just don't sew as many pacthes on our uniforms...


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## phlux (Jul 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> *Well said!!!
> *



I disagree... and I have a problem with this logic. First of all lets see what is true about this statement;

There certainly are some very important aspects of Ninpo/Ninjitsu/Taijutsu etc that are trained and mastered within the realm of Special Ops. There are Techniques that are analyzed, taught and mastered by these folks. Some of them even get to a level of understanding the underlying principles behind the techniques.

Yes, special ops groups are tough people - but they are not the modern ninja.

The reason is that there is so much more to what makes a "Ninja"..... Special Ops forces are a gverment agency that is used for missions that are of a national interest and may or may not actually be just and honorable.

The study of the arts that make up ninjitsu go well beyond just the techniques that make you an efficient killing machine for the interests of your governement and occasionally your nation.

The principles studied are universal principles of movement and mastering your awareness and abilities.  The Ninja is merely one who is in full control of his reality - and is in command of any situation that arises because they have trained such that they understand one fundamental permanence - everything changes. The ability to understand change and flow - and adapt to new information instantly while maintaining your center of self is what a Ninja is. 

A Ninja is a Human - the study of Taijutsu/Ninpo etc is the study of being a better Human being.

The Special Ops and other military oraganizations are practitioners of the techniques of the Ninja - not the principles. they are not taught the deeper teachings.

Just because they wear black, are efficient killing machines and have cool tech - they are not Ninja. Read Hatsumi's works to get more insight into what the philosophy on Ninja truely is.


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## Pervaz (Jul 6, 2003)

Just to add 

I agree with Phlux and would even say that the "ninjas" of old were not special ops in the sense that they were controlled by the government - they were fightin for lives due to religous intollerence (yambushi) and their alligence to a dynamo.  Clans would ensure that they were not abused for their skills hence there was a heirachical structure.

P


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## Bujingodai (Jul 6, 2003)

Daimyo = Dynamo ??


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## andurilking2 (Jul 6, 2003)

...


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## progressivetactics (Jul 6, 2003)

1 thing is for sure.....they ninja schools were so good at teaching stealth and concellment, you cant find a school around anymore!


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## Bujingodai (Jul 6, 2003)

Wow how ironic, I was just on your website LOL, it's nice.

Really do you think it hard to find a school. They are littered all over if you ask me. I know of 4 or 5 in MI. 

check out http://unv.aimoo.com


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## Pyros (Jul 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by progressivetactics _
> *1 thing is for sure.....they ninja schools were so good at teaching stealth and concellment, you cant find a school around anymore! *



I think the few stealth methods I've seen taught in the Bujinkan curriculum are excellent. Just frustrates me that one needs to achieve such a high rank and personal relationship with Soke to get any such training. 

And about comparing ninja-specOps: yes, just read books like Ninpo-Wisdom For Life by Hatsumi, ninjutsu involves a deep philosophy about becoming a winner in personal and emotional life. A "true ninja" is a person who shows his skills in personal life not on battlefield. And that is not something the specOps teach their recruits. At least it is not the "ultimate aim" of them. C'mon, can you really say that the NAVY teaches new SEALS for the primary reason of making them enlightened human beings who live a fulfilling personal life - as the primary goal? Nope. But go to a Bujinkan/Genbukan dojo and that is the primary goal. And it is of any true ninjutsu legacy. Stealth and armoury are but tools - and a ninja must prevail even when these tools are not available.


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## progressivetactics (Jul 7, 2003)

thanks bujingodai.  
How did you come across my site?  This forum?

I have some friends that just moved back to Ontario from Toronto where they had a very successful school, who have a karate club there.  It is an expansion of his fathers.  Lamont Kersey is the father, the son/wife team are Brandon and Krista Scherer.  Are you familiar with either of them?  Lamont's school was "Mr Kersey Karate School" and it was right over the bridge from Detroit.  I don't know where in Ontario Brandon and Krista opened up.


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## tonbo (Jul 7, 2003)

What did I get myself into, here?

Okay, yeah, the points are all well taken.  I never meant to indicate that SpecOps and Ninja were on a one-to-one basis.  Just that they were *similar*.  There are a LOT of factors that don't allow the two to be compared point by point, but, well.....that's 'cuz they're two different things, right?

My brother was a Ranger, and, for a while, a martial artist.  I would fully agree that he was not taught *any* of the "enlightenment" philosophy when he was a Ranger--just how to do his job.  Perhaps that is how historical Ninja were as well; despite what Master Hatsumi may or may not say, we don't *know* for sure in every situation.  At any rate, today's Ninja are taught skills with the intent to help them better themselves.  That might run counter to someone in history, who was taught assassination techniques.  I mean, really....if you were learning assassination, and to be an effective spy/assassin, do you really want to have a question on the morality of your actions while you are on a mission?   

Okay, yes, the points are taken.  Today's Ninja are *similar* to, but not *exactly*, SpecOps guys, and vice versa.  You want the military way of doing things, you got SpecOps.  You want to learn more *life skills*, you go the Ninja route.

Oy.  Makes my head hurt.  Besides, I don't need to tick off any more of those freaking Ninja.....I already have enough of them lurking around my house.

They do keep the salesmen away, though.

 

Peace--


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## heretic888 (Jul 8, 2003)

> Okay, yeah, the points are all well taken. I never meant to indicate that SpecOps and Ninja were on a one-to-one basis. Just that they were *similar*.



They are *similar* in superficial commonalities only. Just because the "arts of sneakiness" are learned by both groups does not mean they really have anything else in common, or that they are counterparts of their respective cultures.



> My brother was a Ranger, and, for a while, a martial artist. I would fully agree that he was not taught *any* of the "enlightenment" philosophy when he was a Ranger--just how to do his job. Perhaps that is how historical Ninja were as well; despite what Master Hatsumi may or may not say, we don't *know* for sure in every situation.



Be that as it may, Hatsumi-soke is THE foremost historical authority on the ninja in the world. If anyone would know, it would be him (by the way, I don't count people that have read up on Tokugawa and Meiji fiction as 'historical authorities'. Fiction is fiction, and history is history).



> At any rate, today's Ninja are taught skills with the intent to help them better themselves. That might run counter to someone in history, who was taught assassination techniques.



And you know this how?? Honestly, in all history, the number of accounts of "ninja assassinations" you could probably count on one hand, so what makes you think ninja were commonly trained in "assassination techniques"?? 

Besides, any reading of the early chapters of the Bansenshukai sure gives the impression that "bettering yourself" was pretty damn important to the feudal Ninja as well. It should also be remembered that the earliest founders and 'jonin' of the Ninja ryuha were doshi ('moralists'), according to Hatsumi-soke's records anyway.



> I mean, really....if you were learning assassination, and to be an effective spy/assassin, do you really want to have a question on the morality of your actions while you are on a mission?



That assumes a rather simplistic, Confucian-like, black-and-white view on morality. The Ninja were, mostly likely, of a more Zen or Taoist view on ethics.

Laterz.


----------



## tonbo (Jul 8, 2003)

Heretic, you make some very good points.

The simple fact is, I know very little about "real" Ninja.  I have been a product of the media image of "Ninjas" and of their history.  

I have never read anything by Steven Hayes, Hatsumi-soke, or anyone who has any historical insight into either Ninja or Ninjitsu.

I don't believe that Ninja, historical or modern, were imbued with any magical abilities; however, I do believe that they were highly trained and were probably very good at what they did.  However, I don't know what they did, specifically, and I don't know how they felt about it.  I don't know what their philosophy of life was, whether it varied from clan to clan, or if they even *had* one.  

I also don't know whether they were, as has been postulated in the past, the flip side of the coin from the samurai.  Nor do I care, really.

At some point in my future, I will probably get a book or two by Hatsumi-soke and actually do a little more research.  I would agree that he is the foremost authority on matters Ninja; however, having only one reputable source makes things very difficult.  If he were to make up stories, or to color/slant things a certain way, who would be there to challenge?

My position in this thread has gone from something a bit more tongue in cheek to something a little more defensive, and it shouldn't .  As I have mentioned, I come from a position of relative ignorance, which I will readily admit.  I have nothing against practitioners of Ninjitsu, as long as they have not learned all their techniques from watching any movies they can get their hands on.  

What I boil all this down to is this:  Peace, brother, peace.  I admit my ignorance and apologize if I have slammed anything you feel strongly about.  My lack of knowledge on this subject doesn't allow me any right to come in and make any assumptions or broad statements.  So for anything that I have said that has been out of place, I apologize.

Now, can you get these damn Ninja out of the woods behind my house?   

Thank you for all the points you made.

:asian: 

Peace--


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 8, 2003)

Oh, nevermind.  Nothing's there.  Must have been a very SKILLED Ninja.

:rofl: 

Seriously, aren't most ninja just "neo-ninja" in that the art is re-created, but not passed down?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jul 8, 2003)

I think its important to know who ninjas were rather than what they knew. Ninja from what I understand meant people who were unseen. That is the whole damn lot of them to include there families. It was a caste system. Who are the ninja in america?
the homeless, and the mentaly ill. If one thousand were to die tommorow, no one would notice. Still, chances are most of their names and finger prints are on file; so, even they are not truly "unseen".


----------



## heretic888 (Jul 8, 2003)

> Heretic, you make some very good points.



Yay for me!  



> The simple fact is, I know very little about "real" Ninja. I have been a product of the media image of "Ninjas" and of their history.



M'kay, fair enough.



> I have never read anything by Steven Hayes, Hatsumi-soke, or anyone who has any historical insight into either Ninja or Ninjitsu.



M'kay, fair enough (by the way, I would recommend "Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions" by Hatsumi-soke. Excellent historical info).



> I don't believe that Ninja, historical or modern, were imbued with any magical abilities



That depends on what you mean by "magic"... *Twilight Zone music plays in the background*



> I don't know what their philosophy of life was, whether it varied from clan to clan, or if they even *had* one.



Ninpo.



> At some point in my future, I will probably get a book or two by Hatsumi-soke and actually do a little more research. I would agree that he is the foremost authority on matters Ninja; however, having only one reputable source makes things very difficult. If he were to make up stories, or to color/slant things a certain way, who would be there to challenge?



Well, there are other sources, such as the Bansenshukai. But Hatsumi-soke and his senior-most students are the most direct authorities on the subject (after all, you can't ask a book a question).




> My position in this thread has gone from something a bit more tongue in cheek to something a little more defensive, and it shouldn't . As I have mentioned, I come from a position of relative ignorance, which I will readily admit. I have nothing against practitioners of Ninjitsu, as long as they have not learned all their techniques from watching any movies they can get their hands on.



M'kay.



> What I boil all this down to is this: Peace, brother, peace. I admit my ignorance and apologize if I have slammed anything you feel strongly about. My lack of knowledge on this subject doesn't allow me any right to come in and make any assumptions or broad statements. So for anything that I have said that has been out of place, I apologize.



*puts down prized tengu sword* Oh, alright.  



> Now, can you get these damn Ninja out of the woods behind my house?



Try using sushi as bait.  



> Thank you for all the points you made.



Yup. No problemo.



> Seriously, aren't most ninja just "neo-ninja" in that the art is re-created, but not passed down?



Most who claim to be "ninja" certainly are.


----------



## heretic888 (Jul 8, 2003)

> I think its important to know who ninjas were rather than what they knew.



I think both are equally important.



> Ninja from what I understand meant people who were unseen.



Technically speaking, a more accurate transliteration is people who endure and persevere. 



> That is the whole damn lot of them to include there families. It was a caste system.



The "ninja" were a subculture within Japan and in many respects lived outside the established caste system and social structure (the mountain ranges of Iga and Koga kind of cut them off from most of the country).



> Who are the ninja in america? the homeless, and the mentaly ill. If one thousand were to die tommorow, no one would notice. Still, chances are most of their names and finger prints are on file; so, even they are not truly "unseen".



Uhhh.... right.

That's got to be the most unique 'ninja theory' I have ever heard.


----------



## tonbo (Jul 8, 2003)

Heretic:



> Try using sushi as bait.



Not a chance.  The sushi is mine.  MINE.  And I will defend it to the DEATH!!

I think I have a couple of bottles of sake lying around, though.  Maybe that would work.

Soon as I can, I'll get some of the books that you suggested.  I have plenty of reading to do, so it may be a while.  However, my interest is now peaked.....

Peace--


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## Cryozombie (Jul 8, 2003)

Dont leave CHEAP sake out, we might FLIP OUT AND KILL EVERYONE IN TOWN.  We are MAMMALS after all...


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *I think both are equally important.
> 
> 
> ...


Just curious, what group of americans would you say fit the profile or am I barking up the wrong tree all toguether?


----------



## heretic888 (Jul 9, 2003)

> Just curious, what group of americans would you say fit the profile



None. To date, I can think of no other cultural group that comes anywhere close to what the Ninja embodied. In many ways, it is a purely Japanese phenomena.



> or am I barking up the wrong tree all toguether?



'Fraid so.  

If I were to venture a guess at a HYPOTHETICAL western equivalent to the Shinobi, the Jedi Knights of the fictitious Star Wars films might come close and possibly the Knights Templar if they ever bothered learning the arts of stealth.

Laterz, y'all.


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## tonbo (Jul 9, 2003)

> Dont leave CHEAP sake out, we might FLIP OUT AND KILL EVERYONE IN TOWN.



Tonbo don't drink no cheap sake.

Life's too short to drink cheap sake.

I'll leave the sake under the......wait, what am I saying?  You guys already *know* where all the hiding places are, and where I am most likely to put it!  Yeah.  Just look for it there.

Oh, and thanks for taking care of the neighbor's dog.  It's barking was getting a little old.

   :asian: 

Peace--


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## Shadow Hunter (Jul 16, 2003)

Ok, 
You had your fun, now let us deal with this in a serious manner.

Modern shinobi do still exist. They even have a link with the distant past. They are not special ops guys like SEALs or Delta Force.

They are called Sulsa, and they exist in Korea. The ancient ninja weren't some sort of Rambo with bulging muscles. They had to blend in with the population to gather information or get close to their target. Can you imagine Rambo doing that? For that matter, how many Americans can blend in while in another country?

But Korea is a country where both sides of the border look the same, talk the same and can pass for each other. They are also still at war, so gathering information and preparing assasins is still a very good idea.

A few decades ago, some masters of the art of the Sulsa approached the South Korean goverment and offered their services. What they taught them had to be modified, but the central principles were still vaild. They added on things like how to use cameras and computers to forge documents, but the old trick of covering an accent by faking a speach problem still holds true.

North Korea has their own version, but we do not know that much abou them. We don't think they have any links to the historical Sulsa. We do know that in a land that lets babies starve to death anyone who is in an orphanage has to be there for a purpose. And with the Stalinist regime, training kids from birth to be spies and assassins fanatically loyal to the rulers of North Korea is not hard to believe.

Their training, from what we know of it, is hell on earth. Only a few survive to become operatives. They take political prisoners, (females mainly- and if they are pregnent even better) tie them to posts and give the recruit a knife to kill them without mercy. Later, they are thrown in rooms with male inmates and forced to fight and kill them.

If any of them even think about defecting while they are under cover in South Korea, they know the photos of them gutting a pregnent woman will be released to the world.

The go to special schools later in life. There they learn to be Japanese from native speakers kidnapped for that purpose. Posing as Japanese tourists, they can travel the world. People may be suspicious of Koreans, but no one has problems with the Japanese asking questions.

Yes Virginia, Ninja still exist. Don't expect to find them in Japan or in the American military, but they are out there.


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## Silent Nightfall (Jul 16, 2003)

Am I the only one who feels that the so-called Sulsa sound nothing like the ninja of old? Sure, if they do exist, they know how to survive confrontations, but I doubt their philosophy or combat methods even remotely resemble that of the Japanese ninja. It seems like you still have the concept in your mind that ninja were trained to be assassins and so they needed to be completely ruthless. So, the only resemblance to the ninja that these "Sulsa" have is their ability to blend in and their ability to survive. So what, exactly, makes them the modern ninja?


----------



## Shadow Hunter (Jul 16, 2003)

Josh,
What makes you think that a group that is famous for one of it's members killing some warlord by sticking a spear up his anus as he sat on the comode isn't "ruthless." 

I understand that you probably do not know too much about your art, and that you want to keep your romantic notions about it, but the sad fact is that the Japanese as a whole are pretty damn ruthless in war time. Ever hear of the rape of Nanking, the Bataan Death March and the biological units that experimented on prisoners?

The ninja were famous for espionage, stealth and assaination. The sulsa were also famous for the same thing. In fact, it seems that in the ancient past the ninja learned their art from Korea.

And yes, the way a modern warrior fights looks different from the way it was in the age before guns. So nobody is going to look like the ancient ninja, even the guys who may have a link to them. The only thing constant in this world is change.


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## Silent Nightfall (Jul 16, 2003)

What makes you think that the ninja specialized in assassinations? Many members here can tell you that such is not the case. Also, why would you relate the Japanese army to the ninja? Yes, the Japanese military was ruthless in many of its endeavors. The ninja were not part of this group. There were periods in history when some ninja acted as advisers in military affairs during the feudal age, yes, and they were also hired for espionage as well, but rarely ever for assassinations. The guerilla tactics and fighting styles of the ninja were developed, and correct me if I am wrong, as a means of survival against groups that would seek their annihilation as some did back in that era. The group of which you speak, the Sulsa, are brought up to pledge allegiance to their government and become ruthless soldiers pretty much. This totally goes against the philosophy of ninpo so I'm not quite sure as to how you relate the two. The ninja's goal is to be in harmony with all around him. This is reflected in the way he both lives and fights. I doubt the same can be said for the Sulsa. Just my opinion.


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## Shadow Hunter (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Silent Nightfall _
> *The guerilla tactics and fighting styles of the ninja were developed, and correct me if I am wrong, as a means of survival against groups that would seek their annihilation as some did back in that era.*



Consider yourself corrected.

I realize you are not very knowledgeable about the subject matter. The ninja were known for assasination. The first book in English to introduce Masaaki Hatsumi was written by Andrew Adams and called......guess what?

Yes, the ninja had a lot of emphisis on spiritual development. But that was because they had to do things that would corrupt them if they did not. One of their harshest rules was that they could not use their skills to personally benifit in a  financial sense. (Oh God- look at all the people making money off of the ninjutsu name now.) The sulsa also had such rules and emphisis on being a good person.

Perhaps you should read more from good sources, instead of relying on the romantic versions of hisotry your teacher passes along to you.


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## Silent Nightfall (Jul 16, 2003)

Here is a thought. Why don't we wait for some of the other members here to post on thus subject? Before I begin my wait, however, I thought I might tell you that my instructor has never discussed the history of ninjutsu and the ninja with me. I am always more concerned with my training. Secondly you should know that I have read countless articles where Hatsumi-sensei has stressed that ninja were not known for assassinations as Hollywood would have many believe. I think such might even be stated somewhere within "Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions" by Soke Hatsumi, which I finished reading only a few weeks prior to this. Perhaps instead of making assumptions as to how knowledgeable a person is, you might first wish to question how knowledgeable you, yourself, are. But as I said, do not take my word for it. Simply wait for responses from other forum members and then reply back afterwards. As of right now, our going back and forth without other input is useless and a waste of time. For now, I respectfully bow out and let the other more experienced and knowledgeable members of this forum take the floor. :asian:


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## Shadow Hunter (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Silent Nightfall _
> *Before I begin my wait, however, I thought I might tell you that my instructor has never discussed the history of ninjutsu and the ninja with me.*



I see the source of your ignorance. You do not even seem to know the book by Adrew Adams.

Have you bothered to read anything in Japanese? I have and can state what I do with authority.

Of course I realize why you just do not want to accept the cold, hard facts about the matter so I forgive you and your nasty attitude towards me.


----------



## heretic888 (Jul 17, 2003)

In response to Shadow Hunter's first post, I would like to mention that the Sulsa (if they ever existed or do still exist) have no more parallels to the Japanese Ninja than the Navy SEALS or Green Berets do. And, we pointed out in earlier posts that what few parallels these Special Forces have to the Ninja are of a rather superficial nature. The essence of the Ninja culture was not guerilla tactics and sneaky assassinations.

I would also strongly doubt (but not flat-out disbelieve) the rather conspiratorial rantings of the Sulsa still operating in Korea. Not without any reliable sources that is.

There is no credible historical connection between the Ninja and the Sulsa, either.



> Am I the only one who feels that the so-called Sulsa sound nothing like the ninja of old?



No.



> So what, exactly, makes them the modern ninja?



Very little.



> What makes you think that a group that is famous for one of it's members killing some warlord by sticking a spear up his anus as he sat on the comode isn't "ruthless."



Famous?? Last time I checked, that little tidbit of history happened ONCE and there was no actual credible connections to that event to the Ninja cultures of Iga and Koga any more than some other assassination group or mercenary.



> I understand that you probably do not know too much about your art, and that you want to keep your romantic notions about it



Gee, that didn't come off as incredibly narcissistic or anything. :shrug: 



> but the sad fact is that the Japanese as a whole are pretty damn ruthless in war time. Ever hear of the rape of Nanking, the Bataan Death March and the biological units that experimented on prisoners?



You apparently mistakenly assume the Ninja families were part of mainstream conventional Japanese culture. They were geographically cut off from the rest of the country and developed their own, semi-independent culture.

I would say the Ninja were as ruthless as they had to be to ensure their survival.



> The ninja were famous for espionage, stealth and assaination. The sulsa were also famous for the same thing.



Therein lies your problem, Shadow Hunter. You are relying on popular literature, drama, and gossip of the Tokugawa and Meiji Eras as valid historical information. There is actually very little mention of the Ninja in the historical record. Sources such as the Bansenshukai and Hatsumi-soke's scrolls are your best bet. 



> In fact, it seems that in the ancient past the ninja learned their art from Korea.



There is not one valid historical source to validate this theory. 

In any event, I have seen this so-called "Korean ninjutsu" myself. It does not resemble Ninja no Taijutsu at all. It looks like some souped up form of Tae Kwon Do. No flow at all.



> Consider yourself corrected.



I fail to see why, considering you have yet to present one credible source for any of your claims.



> I realize you are not very knowledgeable about the subject matter. The ninja were known for assasination. The first book in English to introduce Masaaki Hatsumi was written by Andrew Adams and called......guess what?



I hate to break this to you, but Mr. Adams is hardly a historical authority on Ninja or Ninjutsu. His lack of primary (or even secondary) sources is laughable. I personally found his book quite enertaining.



> Yes, the ninja had a lot of emphisis on spiritual development. But that was because they had to do things that would corrupt them if they did not.



"Corrupt" them??  



> The sulsa also had such rules and emphisis on being a good person.



Sources, please. 



> Perhaps you should read more from good sources, instead of relying on the romantic versions of hisotry your teacher passes along to you.



Well, Shadow Hunter, you have yet to recall a single valid primary or secondary historical source. Perhaps you should take your own advice??



> I see the source of your ignorance. You do not even seem to know the book by Adrew Adams.



I do, and I would claim that book to be a source of your own ignorance on the subject. I can't believe you actually think it is historically valid. Most of Adams' sources come from fictional literature. And, the few times he does use actual historical sources, they are always biased and unsupported by any other sources (example: he has an old manuscript showing a bunch of samurai dressed in black and calls them "ninja" without any justifications for this claim outside of superficial parallels).



> Have you bothered to read anything in Japanese? I have and can state what I do with authority.



Such as??



> Of course I realize why you just do not want to accept the cold, hard facts about the matter so I forgive you and your nasty attitude towards me.



*snicker snicker ralph*


----------



## Shadow Hunter (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *In response to Shadow Hunter's first post, I would like to mention that the Sulsa (if they ever existed or do still exist) have no more parallels to the Japanese Ninja than the Navy SEALS or Green Berets do. And, we pointed out in earlier posts that what few parallels these Special Forces have to the Ninja are of a rather superficial nature. The essence of the Ninja culture was not guerilla tactics and sneaky assassinations.*



Pray tell, what was the essence of ninja culture, sitting around in the commune singing hymns? Sad.



> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *I would also strongly doubt (but not flat-out disbelieve) the rather conspiratorial rantings of the Sulsa still operating in Korea. Not without any reliable sources that is.*



The exist, whether you want to believe it or not. And there are people who say that what Hatsumi teaches has no link to the ancient ninja either.



> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *There is no credible historical connection between the Ninja and the Sulsa, either.*



Excuse me, but have you bothered to research just how much of what we call Japanese culture comes orignally from Korea?






> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Very little.*



So you don't feel that the Sulsa count as modern day ninja? Strange in that they seem to resemble the description of ninja in the Bansenshukai.





> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Famous?? Last time I checked, that little tidbit of history happened ONCE and there was no actual credible connections to that event to the Ninja cultures of Iga and Koga any more than some other assassination group or mercenary.*



I menioned one instance, I can give others. How about Tokugawa Ieyasu's use of his ninja from Iga and Koga to kidnap relatives of his vassels in order to keep them in line? You wnat more examples? No, you just seem to want to live in your fantasy of the ninja as a middle ages hippy.



> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *You apparently mistakenly assume the Ninja families were part of mainstream conventional Japanese culture. They were geographically cut off from the rest of the country and developed their own, semi-independent culture.*



And you seem to think that they were totally cut off from the rest of the planet, while still travelling all over the country, dealing with the rest of Japan in trade and using the same language.




> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *I would say the Ninja were as ruthless as they had to be to ensure their survival.*



Good! It was a ruthless time and the ninja were no more ruthless than anyone else in their position. No more and no less!!!




> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Therein lies your problem, Shadow Hunter. You are relying on popular literature, drama, and gossip of the Tokugawa and Meiji Eras as valid historical information. There is actually very little mention of the Ninja in the historical record. Sources such as the Bansenshukai and Hatsumi-soke's scrolls are your best bet.*



And therein lies your problem in only taking the word of your teacher. I am not just going off of popular literature and gossip. I am going off of the bansenshukai and other historical works. Have you read the entire bansenshukai? How much research have you done on your own that required more effort than a click of the mouse?




> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *There is not one valid historical source to validate this theory.*



Oh come on!!! The links between Korea and Japan are well known! The Japanese looked to the Koreans for most of their technical skill. In the early Heian period fully one third of the nobility in the capital were less than three generations removed from Korea.



> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *In any event, I have seen this so-called "Korean ninjutsu" myself. It does not resemble Ninja no Taijutsu at all. It looks like some souped up form of Tae Kwon Do. No flow at all.*



The stuff you saw was probably not true sulsa do. There have been fakes in all arts. 



> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *I fail to see why, considering you have yet to present one credible source for any of your claims.*



I have given several like the Bansenshukai, Andrew Adams, common history you can find in books like Stephan Turnbull's and such. You keep whining, "but Hatsumi says.." and covering your ears when some fact you don't like is presented. 



> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *I hate to break this to you, but Mr. Adams is hardly a historical authority on Ninja or Ninjutsu. His lack of primary (or even secondary) sources is laughable. I personally found his book quite enertaining.*



But his title with its use of the term "Assassin" is indicitive of the reputation they have in Japan and in history. And again, trying to attack any source that does not fit your narrow view of what the ninja should be is not very honorable. 



> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *"Corrupt" them?? *



Yes, killing people, lying to them to get information, kidnapping children and the like can be very corrupting for the soul unless you kept your eyes on the larger picture. 



> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Sources, please.*



You first. And no more "Sensei says".



> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Well, Shadow Hunter, you have yet to recall a single valid primary or secondary historical source. Perhaps you should take your own advice??*



Again, I have given sources, you just seem to want to stick your head in the ground and not accpet them. Do a little research my friend.



> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *I do, and I would claim that book to be a source of your own ignorance on the subject. I can't believe you actually think it is historically valid. Most of Adams' sources come from fictional literature. And, the few times he does use actual historical sources, they are always biased and unsupported by any other sources (example: he has an old manuscript showing a bunch of samurai dressed in black and calls them "ninja" without any justifications for this claim outside of superficial parallels).*



Right.... And some of the biased sources he uses  come from Hatsumi.



> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Such as??*



Such as the Bansenshukai. Have you read anything not on your teacher's approved reading list?

Here is an interesting exercise. How about soem of the people who spend so much time attacking me go out and find out who Ishikawa Goemon was, his link to the Koto ryu, what he was executed for and what role in the 20th century did both Takamatsu sensei and Hatsumi sensei have in validating what I say?

I do not want trouble with people and am very forgiving. Once you realize the error of your ways, I will be willing to move on and accept your apologies for all the vicious attacks you have leveled against me.


----------



## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> * ...
> 
> Excuse me, but have you bothered to research just how much of what we call Japanese culture comes orignally from Korea? ...
> ...



Interesting theory.  

Of course, MOST of Japanese martial arts were "Jap-ified" versions of Kung Fu, passed up through Okinowa.  If you speak Japanese, the very existence of "Shorin-ryu" says it all.

This makes for another theory, and that is that Korean arts are a COMBINATION of the Chinese arts they decended from with a Japanese influence.  Not the "Jap-ified" Kung Fu, but a true hybrid.

As for Ninjitsu, it's origins are most likely from two backwoods Chinese arts, one of which I can recall the name -- Lin Quei.  But it is a Japanese art, just as Zen is Japanese, even though it is almost wholly based in Ch'an, and has it's unique Japanese identity and achievements thereof.

So did the Japanese really get their culture from Korea in any significant way?  From the Tea Ceremony and Buddhism, to language and martial arts, I think the theory holds no sake.

But then that's a whole other thread ...


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## Shadow Hunter (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *Interesting theory.
> 
> Of course, MOST of Japanese martial arts were "Jap-ified" versions of Kung Fu, passed up through Okinowa.  If you speak Japanese, the very existence of "Shorin-ryu" says it all.*



If you are talking about karate, your theory holds true. But there is almost no connection between karate and the koryu of mainland Japan.



> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *As for Ninjitsu, it's origins are most likely from two backwoods Chinese arts, one of which I can recall the name -- Lin Quei.  But it is a Japanese art, just as Zen is Japanese, even though it is almost wholly based in Ch'an, and has it's unique Japanese identity and achievements thereof..*




I doubt it. Just look at a map and you will see just how close the influence had to be between Korea and Japan. Many ideas started in China, got refined in Korea and then passed on to the Japanese. This goes for the introduction of Buddhism to pottery to art.

There was a lot of Koreans who moved to Japan, where their skills made them part of a new elite. Engineers, priests, doctors and artists just to name a few areas where they distinguished themselves. Tons of Koreans came to Japan and imparted their skills. The number of Chinese who were willing to move to what they considered a backward, barbaric nation just pales by comparisson. The biggest impact China made on Japan was in the form of whatever could be written down and transported by book. Thus you got more sutras from China, and more Buddhist priests from Korea.

And in terms of fighting skills, the Japanese learned more from Korean immigrants than books from China.



> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *So did the Japanese really get their culture from Korea in any significant way?  From the Tea Ceremony and Buddhism, to language and martial arts, I think the theory holds no sake.
> 
> But then that's a whole other thread ... *



Are you kidding??? The tea ceremony and Buddhism are perfect examples of how the Japanese got their culture from Korea. Do you know what the most popular sort of prisoner was when Japan invaded Korea in the 16th century was- artisans who could make Korean style bowls for the tea ceremony! And as I said, the first introduction to Japan of Buddhism was from the King of Silla in Korea. Yes the Japanese went to China to study Budddhism along with Korea, but they also went all the way to India for the same thing!

Korea had a great impact on Japan, especially in any type of physical skill that had to be taught from teacher to student. Okinawa benifited from China. The two are totally different.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *...  Many ideas started in China, got refined in Korea and then passed on to the Japanese. This goes for the introduction of Buddhism to pottery to art.
> ...
> 
> ...



Again, that is all just theory based on a map and an idea.

Can you show me the lineages of the Tea Masters, Zen Masters, and even trace back the lineages of almost all the martial arts teachers?  I don't recall any of them being Korean, as possible as it might have been.  But all of them trace back to SPECIFIC PEOPLE in China.  Not just general ideas, but the actual masters of tea, hands, calligraphy, you name it.

Not bashing Korea -- they have a wonderful culture -- and as for Japan, it WAS backwards during most of recorded history.  And even so, the fact is that missionaries and masters DID come from China.  Not just the idea of them coming, but endless specific people with names and dates in all fields of study, from medicine to gardening.

The fact that Korea and Japan both had the same circumstance with China, but in their own way, and their geographic placement between the two, IMO is misleading.  China was the central culture in terms of advancement in arts and sciences, and this can not be ignored, regardless of the many contributions of the much smaller adjacent cultures of Japan and Korea.  Korea was a stepping stone to Japan and vice-versa, not a depot.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *Korea had a great impact on Japan, especially in any type of physical skill that had to be taught from teacher to student. Okinawa benifited from China. The two are totally different. *



My understanding was that msot of the karate systems known today (if not all) came from a direct infusion of Okinowan (and Chinese) masters.  Is this not so?


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## Shadow Hunter (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *My understanding was that msot of the karate systems known today (if not all) came from a direct infusion of Okinowan (and Chinese) masters.  Is this not so? *



Yes,
But I am talking about Japanese systems, not Okinawan ones. The Japanese invaded Okinawa in the early 17th century. before that, there was little other than occasional trade contacts between them. The height of the ninja period was a hundred years before this.

Karate really did not become a _Japanese_ martial art and have much influence on them until after Perry's arrival forced the modernization of Japan.

So if you are talking karate, you see a link from China to Okinawa to Japan. If you are talking about kenjutsu, ninjutsu, or any samurai type of art you are looking at a different pathway, more likely influenced by Korea than China or Okinawa.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *Yes,
> But I am talking about Japanese systems, not Okinawan ones. The Japanese invaded Okinawa in the early 17th century. before that, there was little other than occasional trade contacts between them. The height of the ninja period was a hundred years before this.
> 
> ...



You are obviously knowledgable about this -- thank you for your insight.  :asian: 

I always did suspect the roots of kendo and ninjitsu were very different from all the others.  I always assumed kenjutsu was almost aboriginal in it's roots, influenced later by other cultures.  Aren't there also backwater martial arts from Hokkaido that still exist that are almost independent of other cultural influences?


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## Silent Nightfall (Jul 18, 2003)

Shadow Hunter... I think you are gravely mistaken about a great many things. I foresee this thread on ninjutsu history becoming long and drawn out with input from various sources, however, no matter what the outcome of this debate, you have made a few errors that cannot be refuted. First of all, you are assuming that we are attacking you when we respond to your comments. This could not be farther from the truth. I see this as a debate and nothing more. Therefore, no matter who is right in the end, if we ever see an end to this, you shall receive no apology on my part because I never attacked you in my writing. I merely chose to disagree. Your own words, however, are much closer to a written assault. Which brings me to your second mistake. You assume that we have romantic notions about the art that we study and its predecessors and that we would do anything to keep these so-called "illusions" in tact. Once again, wrong answer. I could care less about what people did with the art hundreds of years ago. What I truly care about is whether or not it works and is effective for me. Enough said... I only choose to debate this topic with you because I, like many others, do not like to see false information passed on to those seeking the honest truth because they may have a great interest in history and culture. Having them mislead would not be proper. Thus, this debate will go on and on. I merely hope that you will cease to assume that I am being cold and cutting with my words and that I am trying to protect my "fantasy ideals" about this art. When it is all said and done, it won't matter if ninja were ruthless assassins or not centuries ago when I'm being attacked on the street by someone looking for money, now will it? So why would you think the history of the ninja would have me so worked up in the first place? Better think about that.


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## Shadow Hunter (Jul 18, 2003)

Josh,
If you look at what some people have been writting, it is pretty obvious that at least some of them have been on the attack.

The ninja were ruthless. It was a ruthless time. It is kind of like looking at the new goverments being set up in Afghansitan and Iraq. Trying to find saints among the potential candidates is a fool's task. Any innocents would have been tortured to death in the previous enviroments and the survivors were the ones who were willing to do what they needed to in order to survive and thrive.

And if you look at what the ninja was, then the best equivelents would be the sulsa working for the South Korean goverment and the North Korean Special Intelligence Forces living and gathering information in the South.


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## arnisador (Jul 18, 2003)

http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/0/058375-7050-014.html

An Indianapolis police officer is a Tokagure-ryu instructor.


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## TallAdam85 (Jul 18, 2003)

this has got the most replys to anything i have ever put on the site


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## heretic888 (Jul 21, 2003)

Shadow Hunter,

What you need to understand is that, for the most part, I agree with most of your conclusions. Korean culture did have a major influence and impact on Japanese culture. Even in the martial arts.

However, just because Korea on the whole had an influence on Japan on the whole does not necessarily mean that the Sulsa had any influence on the Ninja. There still seems to be no direct or concrete connection between the two outside of speculations, in my opinion.

On a side note, however, it should be noted that, according to Hatsumi-soke's records, the "Chinese" refugee Ikai (Ibou), sometimes identified with Chan Busho (Cho Busho), was said to come from from Korai (present day Korea), leaving that area around the fall of the T'ang Dynasty (around 900 to 950 CE, I believe). Ikai seems to be the "origin" of many of the Bujinkan ryuha according to the lineages (Gyokko-ryu, Togakure-ryu, Hakuun-ryu, Kukishinden-ryu, and Shinden Fudo-ryu all trace back to him).

It should be remembered, however, that the Ninja are quite an ancient culture. Even the "established" Ninja ryuha date back to almost a thousand years. Who knows how long the Ninja were running around doing their thing before they began establishing semi-independent schools (according to Takamatsu-soke, the Ninja may be as old as the Japanese Imperial family itself)??

I am not sure how old the Sulsa are, or how they could have influenced the Ninja. But, as of now, there doesn't seem to be any concrete connection between the two outside of generic speculation.

I don't think the Ninja/Sulsa parallels are all that complete, however. The Sulsa, as you describe them, seem to be little more than tools of their government. The Ninja families were probably seen as something like vigilantes and were semi-independent from the various Shogunates.

As for the ruthlessness.... I would say the Ninja were only as ruthless as they had to be to ensure their families' survival and what they perceived to be best for the country and people. Many of the Ninpo scrolls and documents seem to indicate the Ninja had an aversion toward killing their opponents and were supposed to use only as much force as needed to stop the adversary (such as in Gyokko-ryu's Ninja no Kissoku).

Laterz.


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## Shadow Hunter (Jul 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *I don't think the Ninja/Sulsa parallels are all that complete, however. The Sulsa, as you describe them, seem to be little more than tools of their government. The Ninja families were probably seen as something like vigilantes and were semi-independent from the various Shogunates.*



You really do not know much about the subject, do you?

The ninja were the lap dogs of the shogunate. They were not the Robin Hood types you want them to be. That is just hard historical fact backed up by their many actions on behaff of the shogunate. Who do you think sent one fo them onto Commodore Perry's ship? Or sent them to help kill off the Christians in the Shimabara uprising?

And do me a favor, if you are not willing to take my word on things, then don't ask us to take Masaaki Hatsumi's or Toshitugu Takamatsu's word on what the ninja were unless you are also willing to back up what you say with similar proof. Haven't you ever heard of the article at Koryu.com? If there is a question about Hatsumi sensei's link to the historical ninja, then we should not be taking his word on the matter as a matter of blind faith.


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## heretic888 (Jul 28, 2003)

> You really do not know much about the subject, do you?



I would appreciate it if you'd cut back on the insults, oh omniscient one. :shrug: 



> The ninja were the lap dogs of the shogunate. They were not the Robin Hood types you want them to be. That is just hard historical fact backed up by their many actions on behaff of the shogunate. Who do you think sent one fo them onto Commodore Perry's ship? Or sent them to help kill off the Christians in the Shimabara uprising?



*snicker snicker* Apparently, you seem to forget that the ninja also battled the Tokugawa's Shinsengumi during the Meiji Revolution, neh?? :shrug: 

The Iga no Mono and Koga no Mono were no one's "lap dogs". Yes, they were loyal to the Tokugawas at one point. When they felt that it was time to move on, then they moved on. The ninja families most certainly didn't pledge an "undying" allegiance to the shogunate. They were only as loyal as it suited their particular needs.

Like I said before, the Shinobi were most likely viewed as something of anarchists or vigilantes by the mainstream society as they neglected to pledge an "undying" or "eternal" allegiance to anyone but their own families. I'm not actually saying they were "Robin Hood types", but they were most likely seen as something of a wild card to most daimyo.



> And do me a favor, if you are not willing to take my word on things, then don't ask us to take Masaaki Hatsumi's or Toshitugu Takamatsu's word on what the ninja were unless you are also willing to back up what you say with similar proof. Haven't you ever heard of the article at Koryu.com? If there is a question about Hatsumi sensei's link to the historical ninja, then we should not be taking his word on the matter as a matter of blind faith.



I am aware of it. And, it has been largely disproven. 

Research has been done to indicate there was a "Daisuke Nishina" under Kiso Yoshinaka's ranks as claimed by Takamatsu Toshitsugu in his story of the Togakure-ryu. The source is so remote and so archaic, however, that it is highly unlikely Takamatsu used that book as a source.

In additon, Mr. Ben Cole has offered to act as a go-between Hatsumi and the supposed detractors, so that they can see the densho and makimono themselves. And, guess what?? Suprise, suprise... the detractors refused the offer. Apparently, they don't want to see Hatsumi's evidence on the subject. What does that tell you??

Its easy to debase something you don't understand. Ignorance is a wonderfully nondiscriminating tool.

Besides, Hatsumi-soke's legitimacy to Kukishinden-ryu, Shinden Fudo-ryu, Gikan-ryu and Takagi Yoshin-ryu are admitted by virtually all parties involved. It seems incongruous that either Takamatsu or Hatsumi would just "make up" some ninjutsu schools.


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## Shadow Hunter (Jul 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> * *snicker snicker* Apparently, you seem to forget that the ninja also battled the Tokugawa's Shinsengumi during the Meiji Revolution, neh?? :shrug: *




According to who? Oh yeah, "Sensei sez" and it must be true. That particular little aspect is not recorded in any other aspect of history other than what Hatsumi writes.



> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *The Iga no Mono and Koga no Mono were no one's "lap dogs". Yes, they were loyal to the Tokugawas at one point. When they felt that it was time to move on, then they moved on. The ninja families most certainly didn't pledge an "undying" allegiance to the shogunate. They were only as loyal as it suited their particular needs.*




Show me, with sources outside of "Sensei Sez" that backs up your little fantasy.




> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *I am aware of it. And, it has been largely disproven. *




No it has not. But I understand why you would just want to dismiss it and try to push it under the carpet. The fact remains that it remains on the Koryu.com site and Hatsumi sensei is still not a member of any koryu orginization.




> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Its easy to debase something you don't understand. Ignorance is a wonderfully nondiscriminating tool.*




Thank you for the insult. You show the world the high standards the Bujinkan is famous for.  And so far, I am the one who has been siting facts and sources while you are the one who has been trying to debase sources you are not capable of debating. You honestly think you know more than the people who wrote that essay who hav elived and trained in Japan for years?



> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Besides, Hatsumi-soke's legitimacy to Kukishinden-ryu, Shinden Fudo-ryu, Gikan-ryu and Takagi Yoshin-ryu are admitted by virtually all parties involved. It seems incongruous that either Takamatsu or Hatsumi would just "make up" some ninjutsu schools. *



Nope, they have not. First of all, it is admitted that Takamatsu _studied_ Kukishin ryu and Takagi- ryu, but there is no facts outside of his word that he was every any kind of soke of the art. Let alone the soke of the dozen or so varients of the art he passed out to several people. Shinden Fudo ryu and Gikan ryu are not mentioned in any source prior to Takamatsu and no documents seem to exist in Hatsumi sensei's possesion to confirm that they did.

Right now there are people in Japan who have provided documents _proving_ that they are the legitimate succesors to the Takagi and Kukishin ryu. These are arts that Takamatsu sensei claimed to be the succesor to, but _never_ has any documents been presented to back up that claim.

That doesn't look good, now does it. And until some sort of proof can be provided and the clouds hang over Hatsumi, then "Sensei sez" is not something I am willing to accept like the robots of the Bujinkan.


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## Jay Bell (Jul 28, 2003)

> According to who? Oh yeah, "Sensei sez" and it must be true. That particular little aspect is not recorded in any other aspect of history other than what Hatsumi writes.



At no point did I ever take Sensei's history lessons with more then a grain of salt.  Ironically...I found him to be correct with my findings the majority of the time.  Stop acting like everyone in the Bujinkan are sheep due to the fact that you have an axe to grind.



> No it has not. But I understand why you would just want to dismiss it and try to push it under the carpet. The fact remains that it remains on the Koryu.com site and Hatsumi sensei is still not a member of any koryu orginization.



Untrue...Hatsumi sensei is part of a Kenjutsu koryu organization...the name escapes me right now, but I'll find it for you.  His documentation was enough evidence to be accepted by them.  The Koryu.com article is a word-of-mouth information relay amoung friends that dispute Hatsumi sensei's claims.



> And so far, I am the one who has been siting facts and sources while you are the one who has been trying to debase sources you are not capable of debating.



I haven't seen any evidence of facts and sources from you....save for the people that have problems with the Bujinkan.  



> Nope, they have not. First of all, it is admitted that Takamatsu studied Kukishin ryu and Takagi- ryu, but there is no facts outside of his word that he was every any kind of soke of the art. Let alone the soke of the dozen or so varients of the art he passed out to several people. Shinden Fudo ryu and Gikan ryu are not mentioned in any source prior to Takamatsu and no documents seem to exist in Hatsumi sensei's possesion to confirm that they did.



Sorry, this is quite wrong.  If you look at the kazuu of the Kukishin Tenshin Hyoho, Takamatsu sensei is listed in the Shihanke line.  Hatsumi sensei's densho/maki were signed and stamped by the Kuki head, making him Soke of Kukishin ryu Happo Bikenjutsu....oh....right....he must have used his ninja stealth mode and stole the stamp...  Anyway, Hatsumi sensei shows this fairly openly.



> Right now there are people in Japan who have provided documents proving that they are the legitimate succesors to the Takagi and Kukishin ryu. These are arts that Takamatsu sensei claimed to be the succesor to, but never has any documents been presented to back up that claim.



*sigh*  Please do some research on the matter before making claims like this.  There are 7 lines of the Kuki family arts.  There are at least 4 that I know of of the Takagi lines.

Mizuta sensei and Ishitani sensei were the shihanke and heads that passed on to Takamatsu sensei his lineages of Takagi ryu. 

Tanemura sensei is head of three Kuki lines...one being Hontai Kukishin ryu Bojutsu.  He got this outside of Hatsumi sensei....from Kimura sensei.  He also received Takagi Yoshin ryu Jujutsu from Kimura sensei.  

Hatsumi sensei heads the Kukishin ryu Happo Bikenjutsu as well as Takagi Yoshin ryu Jutaijutsu.

In plain English:  They are not the same arts as the schools that Takamatsu sensei headed.  Takamatsu sensei was Shihanke (Menkyo Kaiden) in Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho, not Soke.  He received Kaiden from Ishitani Matsutarou Tadaaki.  This is well documented...as well as backed by the Kuki family documents.  As was his heading of other Kuki lines.

The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten has plenty of information you seem to be lacking.  Pick up a copy, though pricey, will list the kazuu of things you continue to miss.

As for Shinden Fudo ryu.  You are looking for outside Takamatsu-den resources?  Ueno Takashi.

Gikan ryu?  Akimoto Fumio sensei.  Who, as a side note, was also Soke of Shoken ryu Dakentaijutsu as well as Gikan ryu.  I'm sure you'd recognize one of this students...Mifune sensei of the Kodokan.

All documented in plain....well...Japanese?  Much translated for your viewing pleasure.  

Go further then a koryu.com article and Buj-bashing websites.  You've chewed on people for not doing research....and what have you done?  Enough of the "Koryu.com sez" nonsense.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *
> 
> All documented in plain....well...Japanese?  Much translated for your viewing pleasure. *



Jay, 

Not to change the subject (if thats indeed what this is doing) but you seem to have SO MUCH information on this, and I am VERY interested in the history and lineage of these arts, but i don't read Japanese...

Can you make some reccomendations for reading material with good factual information that a plain, english speaking guy like me can make sense of?

Thanks a Bunch!


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## Jay Bell (Jul 28, 2003)

Buyu Books 

Awesome place to get historical and manual texts on everything budo


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## Scooter (Jul 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *Buyu Books
> 
> Awesome place to get historical and manual texts on everything budo  *



I second that! Great stuff at a fair price!


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## Shadow Hunter (Jul 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *At no point did I ever take Sensei's history lessons with more then a grain of salt.  Ironically...I found him to be correct with my findings the majority of the time.  Stop acting like everyone in the Bujinkan are sheep due to the fact that you have an axe to grind.*



First of all, I never accused you personally of doing the "sensei sez" bit. That has been done by a few other people. And if I seem to be getting mad, it may be because I state facts and am attacked for it by members of the Bujinkan and other members will not comment on their fellow student's bad behavior.

But I must admit, the way that no one will take another Bujinkan member to task for their lack of knowledge or manners does make it sound like you all are sheep. I wish someone would do the right thing even if they do not like the facts I am pointing out.



> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *Untrue...Hatsumi sensei is part of a Kenjutsu koryu organization...the name escapes me right now, but I'll find it for you.  His documentation was enough evidence to be accepted by them.  The Koryu.com article is a word-of-mouth information relay amoung friends that dispute Hatsumi sensei's claims.*



I have heard that the kenjutsu orginization is not very highly regarded. The fact remains that he is not a member of the two most highly regarded orginizations in Japan that actually check the claims of its applicants. 



> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *I haven't seen any evidence of facts and sources from you....save for the people that have problems with the Bujinkan.  .*



Excuse me, did I not just mention the fact that Hatsumi was not a member of the two orginizations that actually check their members claims? He tried to join (source- Donn Draeger who was a member) but was refused based on his lack of proof for Takamatsu's claims.





> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *Sorry, this is quite wrong.  If you look at the kazuu of the Kukishin Tenshin Hyoho, Takamatsu sensei is listed in the Shihanke line.  Hatsumi sensei's densho/maki were signed and stamped by the Kuki head, making him Soke of Kukishin ryu Happo Bikenjutsu....oh....right....he must have used his ninja stealth mode and stole the stamp...  Anyway, Hatsumi sensei shows this fairly openly.*



Shihanke is not the same as being soke. A shihanke is a seniro instructor, not a head of an art. He had trained in the Kukishin ryu, but he was not the head of the art at any point.





> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> **sigh*  Please do some research on the matter before making claims like this.  There are 7 lines of the Kuki family arts.  There are at least 4 that I know of of the Takagi lines.
> 
> Mizuta sensei and Ishitani sensei were the shihanke and heads that passed on to Takamatsu sensei his lineages of Takagi ryu. *



And a important point to point out is that all of these arts that trace themselves back to Takamatsu go no further than him. That is why I used the term "Takamatsu-den" instead of "Bujinkan." It is a FACT that not one of the people who currently claim soke status in an art from Takamatsu are recognized by the orginizations I mentioned. They all go back to Takamatsu and end.

The Hontai Takagi ryu is currently a member, as well as the Kukishin ryu. They both have documents backing up the claims that they are the true inheritors of that tradition. The Takamatsu- den has none.



> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *Tanemura sensei is head of three Kuki lines...one being Hontai Kukishin ryu Bojutsu.  He got this outside of Hatsumi sensei....from Kimura sensei.  He also received Takagi Yoshin ryu Jujutsu from Kimura sensei.*



Again- TAKAMATSU-DEN!!!! We all know Hatsumi sensei trained with Takamatsu Toshitsugu, the problem is that there is no proof to Takamatsu's claims of being a SOKE of any art, let alone the Togakure ryu. Toda sensei died years before Takamatsu was born!!!! That is just fact! Do you want to show me anything that disputes the fact that the guy who supposably taught Takamatsu ninjutsu died before he was born??????  



> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *Hatsumi sensei heads the Kukishin ryu Happo Bikenjutsu as well as Takagi Yoshin ryu Jutaijutsu.
> 
> In plain English:  They are not the same arts as the schools that Takamatsu sensei headed.  Takamatsu sensei was Shihanke (Menkyo Kaiden) in Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho, not Soke.  He received Kaiden from Ishitani Matsutarou Tadaaki.  This is well documented...as well as backed by the Kuki family documents.  As was his heading of other Kuki lines.*



Thank you for pointing out that Takamatsu was a senior instructor but never had the authority to name successors. Only the Soke has the right to do that. If Takamatsu was a shihanke, then he could not have made Hatsumi the soke.



> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten has plenty of information you seem to be lacking.  Pick up a copy, though pricey, will list the kazuu of things you continue to miss.*



Seen it, and there are some things in it you do not want to talk about.



> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *As for Shinden Fudo ryu.  You are looking for outside Takamatsu-den resources?  Ueno Takashi.*



Who was a student of who??? It is interesting to see that Kaminaga, Ueno's succesor, teaches an art called Shinden Fudo ryu that has NOTHING to do with Takamatsu and that there seems to be no reference to the Shinden Fudo ryu in the Takamatsu den until AFTER the meeting between Ueno and Takamatsu.



> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *Gikan ryu?  Akimoto Fumio sensei.  Who, as a side note, was also Soke of Shoken ryu Dakentaijutsu as well as Gikan ryu.  I'm sure you'd recognize one of this students...Mifune sensei of the Kodokan.*



Again TAKAMATSU-DEN!!! Akimoto was a student of Takamatsu and learned it from him. There is no proof prior to Takamatsu that the art existed.

Come on Jay- I expect better of you. Stop being so nasty and twisting the facts. When I say Takamatsu- den I mean anything that came from Takamatsu. Turning around and saying that there are other students of Takamatsu that will back up Hatsumi's claims is beneath you. I know Hatsumi trained with Takamatsu. The thing is, the ninja claims he makes are based on Takamatsu and the trail go cold there.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 28, 2003)

Hey, thanks!  Their selection looks awesome!

Any titles you can recomend to me, (as a bujinkan practitioner I'm especially interested in books that give history and background on its arts or related ones)

I recently picked up "Secrets of the Samurai" at a bookstore near here in the clearance tables for like 5 bucks.  Its an american book to be sure...  have any of you read it, and if so, how is the information contained within?

Also, Scooter, I saw another post that said that you asked Ed Martin a question about Soke Hatsumi... Do you study under Mr. Martin?


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## Jay Bell (Jul 28, 2003)

Before I start here...I just had a 30 minute post that I hit the back button on....I'm a wee ticked...

Here goes..



> And if I seem to be getting mad, it may be because I state facts and am attacked for it by members of the Bujinkan and other members will not comment on their fellow student's bad behavior.



You've used the term "facts" quite a bit.  I have yet to see any save for, "So and so said" or "I heard from someone" nonsense.  Anyway...I am no longer a member of the Bujinkan...nor am I any longer responsible for "fellow student's bad behavior" (which I've seen no evidence of here)



> I have heard that the kenjutsu orginization is not very highly regarded. The fact remains that he is not a member of the two most highly regarded orginizations in Japan that actually check the claims of its applicants.



"I have heard".



> Excuse me, did I not just mention the fact that Hatsumi was not a member of the two orginizations that actually check their members claims? He tried to join (source- Donn Draeger who was a member) but was refused based on his lack of proof for Takamatsu's claims.



I don't care what Draeger explained.  He was rejected because he would not allow copies and pictures to be made of Makimono.  IE...scrolls given to the successor of a ryuha.



> Shihanke is not the same as being soke. A shihanke is a seniro instructor, not a head of an art. He had trained in the Kukishin ryu, but he was not the head of the art at any point.



Katori Shinto ryu and Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho have the Soke as the person that takes care of the religous ceremonies.  The Shihan is the head of the martial side of the ryu.  I will post the kazuu of *all* of the Kuki lines to disprove your point in a moment.



> And a important point to point out is that all of these arts that trace themselves back to Takamatsu go no further than him. That is why I used the term "Takamatsu-den" instead of "Bujinkan." It is a FACT that not one of the people who currently claim soke status in an art from Takamatsu are recognized by the orginizations I mentioned. They all go back to Takamatsu and end.



Then please don't use terms like "Takamatsu den" if you don't understand the context of what it means.  Genbukan, Jinenkan and Bujinkan all trace back to Takamatsu sensei.  More specifically, *all* of Bujinkan traces back to Takamatsu sensei through Hatsumi sensei.  

You might want to correct your verbage in the future.  It would be more appropriate and correct for you to say, "It is MY OPINION that..."



> The Hontai Takagi ryu is currently a member, as well as the Kukishin ryu. They both have documents backing up the claims that they are the true inheritors of that tradition. The Takamatsu- den has none.



*Wondering why I'm having to repeat myself*
There are multiple lines of Kukishin and Takagi ryu.  We've already gone over that.  Please read my previous posts more carefully.



> Again- TAKAMATSU-DEN!!!! We all know Hatsumi sensei trained with Takamatsu Toshitsugu, the problem is that there is no proof to Takamatsu's claims of being a SOKE of any art, let alone the Togakure ryu. Toda sensei died years before Takamatsu was born!!!! That is just fact! Do you want to show me anything that disputes the fact that the guy who supposably taught Takamatsu ninjutsu died before he was born??????



Toda sensei died in 1909.  Takamatsu sensei was born in 1887.  Now, I must admit, I'm in no way a wiz at math...but........



> Thank you for pointing out that Takamatsu was a senior instructor but never had the authority to name successors. Only the Soke has the right to do that. If Takamatsu was a shihanke, then he could not have made Hatsumi the soke.



Thank you for not reading clearly what I wrote.  I stated that Hatsumi sensei's maki and densho were signed and stamped by the Soke of the Kuki family making him head of Kukishin ryu Happo Bikenjutsu.  I did not say it was Takamatsu sensei, though Takamatsu sensei's signature is on the maki as well.



> Who was a student of who??? It is interesting to see that Kaminaga, Ueno's succesor, teaches an art called Shinden Fudo ryu that has NOTHING to do with Takamatsu and that there seems to be no reference to the Shinden Fudo ryu in the Takamatsu den until AFTER the meeting between Ueno and Takamatsu.



Ueno Takashi sensei was a "student" of Takamatsu sensei.  (You'll see in a moment)



> Again TAKAMATSU-DEN!!! Akimoto was a student of Takamatsu and learned it from him. There is no proof prior to Takamatsu that the art existed.



That's odd...every historical documentation I've ever seen on Gikan ryu shows plenty before and after Takamatsu sensei.  What exactly are your sources?  Oh right...Bugei Ryuha Daijiten?  Naw...it's in there too...



> Come on Jay- I expect better of you. Stop being so nasty and twisting the facts. When I say Takamatsu- den I mean anything that came from Takamatsu. Turning around and saying that there are other students of Takamatsu that will back up Hatsumi's claims is beneath you. I know Hatsumi trained with Takamatsu. The thing is, the ninja claims he makes are based on Takamatsu and the trail go cold there.



I'm far from being nasty.  Since these conversations started, you've had a serious chip on your shoulder.  You lay blind claims and when people counter, you get upset.  Not my problem.  Get some books (I recommended a great site above), do some reading, then we can have an educated conversation about these things.

As far as the "Ninja claims"...I didn't realize THAT was the issue that seems to push your buttons.  Let me break this down...if it's beyond your understand, so be it.

Gyokko ryu Kosshijutsu + Koto ryu Koppojutsu = Togakure ryu Ninpo Taijutsu.

Kuki line Soke kazuu:

Kukishinden Ryû Happo Bikenjutsu

Art  Kenjutsu

1.	Izumo Kanja Yoshiteru
2.	Izumo Koshiro Terunobu
3.	Izumo Matsushiro Teruhide
4.	Izumo Bungo Yoshiteru
5.	Izumo Kanja Yoshitaka
6.	Izumo Kanja Yoshiteru
7.	Ohkuni Kisanata Kiyosumi
8.	Tsutsumi Hakushi Mori Ritsuzan
9.	Kuriyama Ukongen Nagafusa
10.	Arima Kochinosuke Masayoshi
11.	Ohkuni Kogenta Yukihisa
12.	Kimura Ittosai Kanesuke
13.	Arima Daisuke Taddaki
14.	Kazama Shinkuro Hidechika
15.	Ohkuni Kihei Shigenobu			Genroku Era (1688)
16.	Otone Sakon Yasumasa
17.	Otone Genpachi Yoshihide
18.	Otone Gengoro Yasuhira
19.	Awaji Nyudo Chikayasu
20.	Kurama Kotaro Genshin
21.	Ohkuni Izumo Mori Shigehiro		Kokwa Era (1844)
22.	Sugino Juheita Kanemitsu
23.	Hisahara Genjuro Yoshitane
24.	Hisahara Kotaro Nobuyoshi
25.	Ishitani Takeoi Masatsugu			approx death 1905
26.	Ishitani Matsutaro Takekage			b. approx 1844, d. approx 1911
27.	*Takamatsu Toshitsugu			b. 1887  d. 1972*
28.	Hatsumi Masaaki				b. 1931  current

Tenshin Soden Kukamishin Ryû

Art  Bujutsu

1.	Kukami (Kuki) Yasushimaru Kurando Takazane
2.	Kojima Takanori (Betsuyo Saburo) 
3.	Ohuchi Minbu Yoshikane 
4.	Ohuchi Goromaru Katsushige 
5.	Hatakeyama SaburoByoe Masayoshi 
6.	Ohkuni Kawachi no Kami Yoshiie 
7.	Ohkuni Kihei Hisayoshi 
8.	Arima Daisuke Tadaaki 
9.	Arima Kawachi no Suke Masayoshi 
10.	Kuriyama Ukon 
11.	Hosoya Shinpachiro 
12.	Kimura Ittosai Nyosui 
13.	Kimura Getsui Yoshishige 
14.	Ohsumi Shima Masanobu 
15.	Eba (Iba) Toyotari 
16.	Ishitani Matsutaro Tadaaki 
17.	Iwami Nangaku Tomoharu 
18a. Matsumoto Ihei 
18b. Kuki Takaharu 
18c. Matsubara Kahei 
19. Tanaka Fumon 


Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryû Bôjutsu

1.	Inaba Kaja Yoshitame 
2.	Kuki Yasushimaru Kurando
	Created Rokushakubojutsu, Kukishin Ryu 1338
3.	Ohuchi Minbu Yoshikane (Minamoto)
	From the Kikuchi clan
4.	Ohuchi Goromaru Katsushige
	Son of Ohuchi Yoshikane
5.	Hatakeyama Saburo Masayoshi
	Follower of the Kikuchi
6.	Ohkuni Kawachi no Mori Yoshiie
	Minamoto clan
7.	Ohkuni Kihei Hisayoshi
	Younger brother of Ohkuni Yoshiie 5th Sôke
8.	Arima Daisuke Tadaaki
	Samurai vassal of the Hosokawa clan
9.	Arima Kawachi no Suke Masayoshi
	Servant of Hosokawa Masayoshi, son of Arima Daisuke
10.	Kuriyama Ukon Chobo
	Samurai in the service of Maeda Toshiie, created Hanbô
11.	Hosoya Shinpachiro Yukihisa
	Samurai in the Ayabe clan, but later left this clan
12.	Kimura Ittosai Nyosui
	Former name was Shingoro, later changed to Muto Myusuiken
13.	Kimura Getsui Yoshishige
	Adopted son of Kimura Ittosai. Pen name Musoken
14.	Ohsumi Shima Masanobu
	Surname was Tachibana
15.	Eba Toyotaro
	Adopted son of Eba Gunbei, originally came from Hanshu
16.	Ishitani Matsutaro Tadaaki
	From Akashi
17.	*Takamatsu Toshitsugu*
18.	Kimura Masaji 
19.	Tanemura Shoto

Hon Tai Kukishin Ryû Bôjutsu

1.	Ohkuni Kihei Shigenobu 
2.	Ohkuni Yakuburo Nobutoshi 
3.	Ohkuni Tarodayu Tadanobu 
4.	Ohkuni Kihei Yoshisada 
5.	Ohkuni Yozaemon Yoshisada 
6.	Nakayama Jinnai Sasahide 
7.	Ohkuni Takezaemon Hidenobu 
8.	Nakayama Kaemon Sadasaka 
9.	Ohkuni Kamaharu Hidetoshi 
10.	Yagi Ikugoro Hisayashi 
11.	Ishitani Takeo Masatsugu 
12.	Ishitani Matsutaro Takakage 
13.	*Takamatsu Toshitsugu*
14.	Sato Knibei Kiyoaki 
15.	Tanemura Tsunehisa

Nakatomi Shinden Tenshin Hyoho

Art  Bujutsu

Takami Nusubi No Kami 
Amenokoyame Nomi Koto 
Shinso (Kamotsumioya) 
Amenokoyame No Mikoto				BC2000
Nakatomi family						BC600
Enso (Totsumioya) Fujiwara Kamatari (Nakatomi)	AD669
	Founder Amatsu Tatara
Fujiwara Hokke 
Fujiwara Norizane (Kumano Betto)


1.	Kukami (Kuki) Yasushimaru Kurano Takazane
2.	Kukami Umanosuke Takayoshi 
3.	Kukami Soshin Takanori 
4.	Kukami Yamato No Kami Takamoto 
5.	Kukami Yamashiro No Kami Yasutaka 
6.	Kukami Kunaishosuke Sadataka 
7.	Kukami Kunaidayu Kiyotaka 
8.	Kukami Yogoro Sumitaka 
9.	Kukami Ohsumi No Kami Yoshitaka 
10.	Kukami Nagato No Kami Moritaka 
11.	Kukami Shima No Kami Yoshitaka 
12.	Kuki Ohsumi No Kami Takatsune 
13.	Kuki Nabezaburo Takayuki 
14.	Kuki Toyozen No Kami Takanao 
15.	Kuki Kawachi No Kami Takahiro 
16.	Kuki Shusuinomasa Takahide 
17.	Kuki Ise No Kami Takayoshi 
18.	Kuki Shinnosuke Takakyo 
19.	Kuki Shikibushosuke Takasada 
20.	Kuki Shikibushosuke Takaaki 
21.	Kuki Ohsumi No Kami Takasho 
22.	Kuki Shikibushosuke Takasato 
23.	Kuki Izumo No Kami Takatsudo 
24.	Kuki Ohsumi No Kami Takato 
25.	Kuki Ohsumi No Kami Takatomo 
26.	Kuki Takaharu


Kukishin Ryû (Chosui Kukishin Ryû)

Art		Bo, Ken, Naginata, Shuriken, Kusarigama, Kenjutsu, Suijutsu, Taijutsu

1.	Kuki Yakushimaru Kurando (Ryushin) Takasane
	Kuki name awarded by the Tenno Godaigo
2.	Kuki Umanosuke Takayoshi 
3.	Kuki Soshin Takanori 
4.	Kuki Yamato no Kami Takamoto (Takatsugu)
	Former name was Kamo Goro - Ju 5th lower
5.	Kuki Yamashiro no Kami Yasutaka (Ryuji)
	Lord of Shimada Castle - Ju 5th lower
6.	Kuki Kunaishosuke Sadataka
	Pen name is Gensai - Ju 5th lower
7.	Kuki Kunaidayu Kiyotaka
	Pen name is Kiyoaki - Ju 5th lower
8.	Kuki Yogoro Sumitaka (Miyauchi Daisuke Joryu)
	Pen name is Kiyoshin - Ju 5th lower
9.	Kuki Ohsumi no Kami Yoshitaka (Sumitaka)
	Lord of Toba castle, Pen name is Tsuneyasu - Ju 5th lower (possible founder of Kuki Suigun)
10.	Kuki Nagato no Kami Moritaka
	Pen name is Zenko - Ju 5th lower (17th Century)
11.	Kuki Shima no Kami Yoshitaka (Sadataka)
	Lord of the Sesshu Mita clan - Ju 5th lower (17th Century)
12.	Kuki Ohsumi no Kami Takatsune (Takayoshi)
	Lord of Tanba Ayabe clan. - Ju 5th lower
13.	Kuki Nabezaburo Takayuki (Ohsumi no Kami Takatsune)
	Member of the imperial household. - Ju 5th lower
14.	Kuki Toyozen no Kami Takanao (Nagato no Kami Takano)
	Ju 5th lower
15.	Kuki Kawachi no Kami Takahiro (Ohsumi no Kami Takahiro)
	Ju 5th lower
16.	Kuki Shusuinomasa Takahide (Takasada)
	Ju 5th lower
17.	Kuki Ise no Kami Takayoshi
	Ju 5th lower
18.	Kuki Shinnosuke Takakyo (Takasato)
	Ju 5th lower
19.	Kuki Shikibushosuke Takasada (Izumo no Kami Takanori)
	Ju 5th lower
20.	Kuki Shikibushosuke Takaaki (Takauni)
	Ju 5th lower
21.	Kuki Ohsumi no Kami Takasho (Takamoto)
	Ju 5th lower
22.	Kuki Shikibushosuke Takasato (Yasutaka)
	Ju 5th lower
23.	Kuki Izumo no Kami Takatsudo
	Ju 5th lower
24.	Kuki Ohsumi no Kami Takato		1868
	After the restoration Ju 5th lower became Sei 3rd), lord of Tanba Ayabe clan
25.	Kuki Ohsumi no Kami Takatomo\
	Sei 5th, Viscount
26.	Kuki Takaharu
	Ju 3rd, Viscount, President of Kodo Senyokai, Died 1979

Kuki Tsuneo


Kukishin Ryû Chosui-ha (Kijin Chosui Ryû)

Art  Dakentaijutsu, Bojutsu, Jojutsu, Kenjutsu, Yawara, Naginata, Yari, Seikotsu

1.	Nawa Shinzaburo Motonaga 
2.	Ohkuni Onigenta Kiyosada 
3.	Ohkuni Onimita Kiyosumi 
4.	Nawa Ohachiro Kunimitsu 
5.	Nawa Jiro Mitsuosa 
6.	Uchigawa Kenzaburo Kiyonaga 
7.	Unno Kosaburo Yoshihide 
8.	Makabe Gennosuke Kiyotaka 
9.	Arakawa Migoro Machika 
10.	Kamib Kotaro Yukishige 
11.	Urabe Sukune Kanesada (Founder of daken-jutsu) 
12.	Izumo Kansha Yoshihide 
13.	Otomo Kosaburo Takayuki 
14.	Otomo Sanshiro Takayoshi 
15.	Fujiwara Izumo-no-kami Yorinaga 
16.	Ise Danjo Yorimitsu 
17.	Samasuke Yoriyoshi 
18.	Atsuta Daiguji Masayoshi 
19.	Atsuta Daiguji Toshihiro 
20.	Takamatsu Saemon Masatoshi 
21.	Ouchi Kawachi-no-kami Toshihiro 
22.	Ohkuni Izumo-no-kami Takeyoshi 
23.	Inaba Kansha Masahide 
24.	Tomonai Taro Sumitaka 
25.	Takamatsu Daizaburo Tokitsugu 
26.	Araki Tamonnosuke Masasumi 
27.	Araki Muninsai (Araki Ryu) 
28.	Araki Tetsuhei Masataka 
29.	Ohkuni Onihira Shigenobu 
30.	Ohkuni Yakuro Nobutoshi 
31.	Ohkuni Taro Kottai Tadanobu 
32.	Ohkuni Onibeie Yoshisada 
33.	Nakayama Jinnai Sadahide [Sadayoshi] 
34.	Ohkuni Izumo-no-kami Hidesada 
35.	Ohkuni Kenji Hidetoshi 
36.	Ohkuni Shigeharu Hidemasa 
37.	Ishitani Matsutaro Takahiro 
38.	*Takamatsu Toshitsugu* 
39.	Ueno Takashi 
40.	Ueno Yoshiaki 

Kaminaga Nariyoshi Kobayashi Masao  

Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho

(Shihan Lineage) 

1.	Kuki Yasushimaru Kurando
	Created Rokushakubôjutsu, Kukishin Ryû 1338
2.	Ohuchi Minbu Yoshikane (Minamoto)
	From the Kikuchi clan
3.	Ohuchi Goromaru Katsushige
	Son of Ohuchi Yoshikane
4.	Hatakeyama Saburo Masayoshi
	Follower of the Kikuchi
5.	Ohkuni Kawachi no Mori Yoshiie
	Minamoto clan
6.	Ohkuni Kihei Hisayoshi
	Younger brother of Ohkuni Yoshiie 5th Soke
7.	Arima Daisuke Tadaaki
	Samurai vassal of the Hosokawa clan
8.	Arima Kawachi no Suke Masayoshi
	Servant of Hosokawa Masayoshi, son of Arima Daisuke
9.	Kuriyama Ukon Chobo
	Samurai in the service of Maeda Toshiie, created Hanbô
10.	Hosoya Shinpachiro Yukihisa
	Samurai in the Ayabe clan, but later left this clan
11.	Kimura Ittosai Nyosui
	Former name was Shingoro, later changed to Muto Myusuiken
12.	Kimura Getsui Yoshishige
	Adopted son of Kimura Ittosai. Pen name is Musoken
13.	Ohsumi Shima Masanobu
	Surname was Tachibana
14.	Eba Toyotaro
	Adopted son of Eba Gunbei, originally came from Hanshu
15.	Ishitani Matsutaro Tadaaki
	From Akashi
16.	Iwami Sakunosuke Nangaku
	Bujutsu Shihan for the Kuki family, Founding chief with 26th Kukishin Ryu Soke of the Kodo Senyokai Shobukyoku, friend of Takamatsu Toshitsugu
17.	Aizaki Masao
	Instructor at the Kodo Senyokai
18.	Takatsuka Unshu Michitaka


Oh...before I forget.  Hatsumi sensei began his bujutsu training under Ueno Takashi.  He received Menkyo Kaiden in the following ryuha from Ueno sensei before ever training with Takamatsu sensei:

Shinto Tenshin-ryu Kenpo 
Asayama Ichiden-ryu Heiho 
Bokuden-ryu Jujutsu


----------



## Shadow Hunter (Jul 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *I don't care what Draeger explained.  He was rejected because he would not allow copies and pictures to be made of Makimono.  IE...scrolls given to the successor of a ryuha.*



According to who??? "I have heard" perhaps? Where you there? Have you ever met Draeger? The FACT is that Hatsumi is not a member of the two most highly regarded koryu orginizations. It can not be that he does not like joining orginizations. He joined that kenjutsu one. If he can't prove what he says then everyone has a right to treat him as someone who CAN'T prove what he says. You want anyone to take your claims seriously? Then don't run this game of, "Until you see our scrolls you can't say what we do is not true- and we are not going to show you anything."




> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *Katori Shinto ryu and Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho have the Soke as the person that takes care of the religous ceremonies.  The Shihan is the head of the martial side of the ryu.*



That is the way it is NOW. The soke of the Katori shinto ryu used to be involved in the teaching of the martial aspects, but the current guy has no interest. And Hatsumi claims to have inherited the sokeship of the Kukishinden ryu, not the shihanke title. You can check any book by Hatsumi to check that out for yourself.





> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *I will post the kazuu of *all* of the Kuki lines to disprove your point in a moment.*



Yes you did, but the whole thing can be summed up with "Sensei sez." Care to try to find a source that doesn't trace back to the Takamatsu-den or prior to the Meiji period that can back up that list written up by Takamatsu?



> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *Then please don't use terms like "Takamatsu den" if you don't understand the context of what it means.  Genbukan, Jinenkan and Bujinkan all trace back to Takamatsu sensei.  More specifically, *all* of Bujinkan traces back to Takamatsu sensei through Hatsumi sensei.  *



Takamatsu-den means "Transmitted by Takamatsu." Any arts he claims to have taught to anyone is Takamatsu-den. That includes Akimoto, Ueno and the like. You don't speak Japanese do you? Well don't tell me the difinitions of Japanese words until you realize them yourself.

And I will say this again, none of the arts Takamatsu taught to anyone is accepted by the two orginizations that are the most respected in the area. Even if Hatsumi had information that he was not willing to show to anyone, it stands to reason that people like Sato Kinbei, Shoto Tanemura, and Ueno would have IF THEY HAD ANY PROOF THAT WHAT THEY WERE PASSED ON BY TAKAMATSU PRECEDED HIM!!!



> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *You might want to correct your verbage in the future.  It would be more appropriate and correct for you to say, "It is MY OPINION that..."*



Right back at you- until you find a tape showing you being there when Hatsumi was turned down for membership, the inner workings of the way the Katori Shinto ryu is run and all the other things.




> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> **Wondering why I'm having to repeat myself*
> There are multiple lines of Kukishin and Takagi ryu.  We've already gone over that.  Please read my previous posts more carefully.*



But aside from the Hontai yoshin ryu, Takagi ryu and Kukishin ryu all of the multiple lines come from Takamatsu and NONE of them have any proof to back up what they say. The lineages from Takamatsu claim to come from a guy named Ishitani Matsutaro and a guy named Mizutani down to Takamatsu. The lineages of the Hontai Yoshin, Takagi and Kukishin are pretty close to the Takamatsu den until Matsutaro. But there is no proof that Matsutaro passed  the art to Takamatsu. The Hontai Yoshin, Takagi and Kukishin can point to certificates from Matsutaro to a guy named Kakuno. They have physical proof that Matsutaro made Kakuno his succesor and the Takamatsu-den can point to NOT A SINGLE BIT OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE to back up the claim that Takamatsu was made head of the arts by Matsutaro.



> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *Toda sensei died in 1909.  Takamatsu sensei was born in 1887.  Now, I must admit, I'm in no way a wiz at math...but........*



Nope, check your facts. And not with something that traces back to the Takamatsu-den. You might want to check with the second edition of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. After that the compiler got less confrontational and just transmitted things as the various groups wanted him to.
Toda was a sword instructor. If you check a book on famous swordsmen of the end of the Tokugawa shogunate you will find him listed, along with the correct date of his death.




> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *Thank you for not reading clearly what I wrote.  I stated that Hatsumi sensei's maki and densho were signed and stamped by the Soke of the Kuki family making him head of Kukishin ryu Happo Bikenjutsu.  I did not say it was Takamatsu sensei, though Takamatsu sensei's signature is on the maki as well.*



I have not seen this, and only have your word. Did you see this yourself and were able to read it or is it, "I have heard" like you were trying to chastise me for?





> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *That's odd...every historical documentation I've ever seen on Gikan ryu shows plenty before and after Takamatsu sensei.  What exactly are your sources?  Oh right...Bugei Ryuha Daijiten?  Naw...it's in there too...*



Have you read the second edition? And where did the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten get its info- Hatsumi and Takamatsu!!!!

Do you have any collaberating evidence? Again "Sensei sez."




> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *I'm far from being nasty.  Since these conversations started, you've had a serious chip on your shoulder.  You lay blind claims and when people counter, you get upset.  Not my problem.  Get some books (I recommended a great site above), do some reading, then we can have an educated conversation about these things.*



Right back at you. Start with a source on famous swordsmen of the end of the Tokugawa shogunate (in Japanese "Bakumatsu") and tell me what year it says Toda died.



> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *As far as the "Ninja claims"...I didn't realize THAT was the issue that seems to push your buttons.  Let me break this down...if it's beyond your understand, so be it.
> 
> Gyokko ryu Kosshijutsu + Koto ryu Koppojutsu = Togakure ryu Ninpo Taijutsu.
> *



That was the whole point. Everyone is claiming what Hatsumi says as evidence of what the ninja were. But there is enough evidence to cast his link to them in doubt so I was TRYING to ask for something to back up what Hatsumi says instead of blind acceptence and then all hell broke loose.

I did not come in here to trash the Bujinkan. I just tried to point out that people should not blindly trust what Hatsumi says unless backed up with collaberating evidence and I am being attacked for suggesting it.

Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu- where outside of sources that trace back to Takamatsu's word of mouth are these arts mentioned? Any historical documents prior to 1950? I'm waiting.......


----------



## Shadow Hunter (Jul 29, 2003)

Ok,
I am getting sick of this thread drift.

The problems started when someone had problems with the idea that a modern day ninja would be involved in espionage and assasination. They tried to portray the ancient ninja as a bunch of fuedal era hippies oppressed by the evil goverment. They tried to counter the sources and facts I pointed out by a case of "Sensei sez." Since then we have been in a pissing contest over if you should trust what Hatsumi says without any proof to back it up vs every other credible source.

I will make you guys a deal. I will stop poking holes in your arts links to the past if you just stop trying to trump historical facts and sources with anything from Hatsumi. I think there is enough evidence out there so that any _resonable_ person would question what Hatsumi says without supporting proof. But there will always be those that go ahead and drink the kool-aide if so ordered. You want to say Hatsumi's word should be trusted over any other source, I will continue to point out how the king has no clothes.

Let us instead look at what the ninja was. Here is a direct quote from an article written by Alexei Gorbalov run in the on line magazine "Ura and Omote." That magazine is run and edited by a Bujinkan member.



> Different authors and different titles dont mean different ways in researching such a complicated phenomenon like ninjutsu. All the historians (most of them dont know Japanese language and have never seen neither historic chronicles nor ninjutsu treatises) tell the same version: the ninjas are representatives of secret clans (word clan by unknown reason is understood as secret society, not as family) based on esoteric spiritual teaching Shugendo (way of obtaining the supernatural powers), which is intended to bring harmony with the Universe. Shugendo followers were not supported by governments benevolence and constantly were under attack. So, ninja clans had to develop a secret art of diversions, espionage and hand-to-hand combat, which later was named ninjutsu. Therefore, ninja clan is not a spy organization. It is society of researchers of highest enlightenment and finding a harmony with outer world.
> 
> But if we would study Japanese historical texts, classical literary texts, real ninjutsu treatises, and works of leading modern researchers of ninjutsu history - Yamaguchi Masayuki, Okuse Heishichiro, Nava Yumio and others - we will find a different image of ninja and ninjutsu. Here I want to quote from a XVIII century book Titles of samurais families (Buke myomokusho): Shinobi-no mono execute different espionage work. Therefore they also are named kanja or choja. So, their service is to secretly penetrate to another provinces and find out the real situation in enemy camp, or by mixing with enemy to find out his weak points. Additionally in enemy camp they set fires, and as assassins kill people. These shinobi are used in many cases. They are also named mono-kiki, shinobi-metsuke. If from the first time their duties are not fixed, there are no tasks which they are not given.
> 
> As shinobi usually common people, light-legs (ashigaru), police guards (doshin), rappa, seppa and others are used. Near Kyoto in Iga province and in Koga [district of province] Omi there were many jizamurai, after Onin years (1467-1477) they organized their own bands (to) and fought during the day and during the night, they also stealed and robbed. Many of them became masters in theirs art of espionage (kancho-no jutsu), after this feudal lords (daimyo) of all clans began to hire such jijamurai. The usual practice was to hire them as spies (shinobi). And they were named Iga-mono - Men from Iga - and Koga-mono - Men from Koga (translation from old japanese from: Koji ruien. Tokyo, 1969, v. 43, p.346).



Ok, if anyone wants to provide _anything outside of the Takamatsu-den_ to dispute this I am willing to listen. Any attempts to pass off the Buke Myomokusho as part of a vast conspiracy by the evil samurai will be laughed at. The definition of the shinobi as the old Japanese knew it was not some black clad feudal era hippy, but rather as;



> Shinobi-no mono execute different espionage work. Therefore they also are named kanja or choja. So, their service is to secretly penetrate to another provinces and find out the real situation in enemy camp, or by mixing with enemy to find out his weak points. Additionally in enemy camp they set fires, and as assassins kill people.



So anyone being a modern version of the ninja would also do roughly the same things.


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## heretic888 (Jul 29, 2003)

Shadow Hunter..... seriously, you crack me up.


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## Shadow Hunter (Jul 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Shadow Hunter..... seriously, you crack me up.  *



If you can't deal with the facts someone presents, try to dismiss and make fun of them.


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## heretic888 (Jul 29, 2003)

"Facts", huh?? To who, exactly?? All you have shown is your own subjective interpretation of things you probably have no experience of. Most, if not all, of your information comes from both a highly discredited article on Koryu.com (which, if you haven't figured out by now, was word of mouth bereft of any direct evidence) and the even more discredited article/self-interview by Mr. Mordine (which even a blind man can tell is blatantly self-promoting).

I personally wouldn't base any supposed "waterproof" case on internet rumors.... This may be a shock to you, but your opinion and "fact" are not necessarily the same thing.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 29, 2003)

*Sigh*

Can't we all just get along???

This is only my poor uninformed OPINION, (Notice I said OPINION not FACT) but every time you have a "secret" organization the facts tend to get blurry...  Are the masons REALLY a front for the Illuminati???  Do/Did the Mormons REALLY have a Secret society of assassins working for their Church???  (Those are rhetorical questions BTW, i dont really want the answers)

Can everyone here at least agree the "facts" point to the The Ninja of feudal japan as a "secret" organization that operated outside of the norm back then?   

I have read from MANY sources even from some of the "Takamatsu-den" that the ninja DID engage in open warfare, and DID kill people.  I think the media's depiction of the Ninja as brutal assassin's-for-hire is probably one of Soke Hatsumi's primary reason for saying that is NOT what they were about... If you were trying to preserve your art, regardless of what it was, and popular belief had every low life thug coming to your school wanting to learn to be the "perfect killing machine" wouldnt you discredit those beliefs in your art???  I know I would.   Its my understanding that those beliefs are what had Ninjutsu outlawed in Feudal Japan... why risk something similar now...

Lets face it:  "Soke Sez"  and "I read somewhere" or "this former student claims" or "I know a guy" or "Well the Soke from THIS school sez" are all just about as credible as one another.  It comes down to WHO'S story you will believe, and your own OPINION on which story is fact.  It's like being the Principal and having two kids called into  your office and  "Bobby sez" Billy started the fight and "Billy Sez" Bobby did.  And some of billys friends then say "Bobby Did" but some of Bobbys Friends heard that "Billy Did"...  You just gotta decide who's account you wanna believe. 

My two cents.


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## Shadow Hunter (Jul 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *"Facts", huh?? To who, exactly?? All you have shown is your own subjective interpretation of things you probably have no experience of.*



Jesus Christ!! Did you sleep through my last post where I quoted from an 18th century historical document called the Buke myomokusho????

What kind of an idiot are you? Who do you study with? What is your experience with the subject matter? You have been running your mouth about how I have been unwilling to give my name, but I am at least willing to give sources while you repeat the mantra "Sensei sez." And now you are dumb enough to say that all I have been doing is giving my "Subjective interpetation" right after I give a source in Japanese???? I feel like I am dealing with a two year old. What is your name and who is your Bujinkan instructor because I am sure that he would love to hear how you are destroying the reputation of the Bujinkan with your idiotic accusations.





> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *"Most, if not all, of your information comes from both a highly discredited article on Koryu.com (which, if you haven't figured out by now, was word of mouth bereft of any direct evidence) and the even more discredited article/self-interview by Mr. Mordine (which even a blind man can tell is blatantly self-promoting).*



How is the Koryu.com article "Descredited?" Can you give me a source that does not trace back to the Takamatsu-den that states that Toda, Takamatsu's teacher, did NOT die before Takamatsu was born???? And did you not notice that the Gorbalov article was run in an internet magazine run by a Bujinkan member? Now I know you are not a Bujinkan member because you are doing so many stupid things while pretending to defend it.

Again I will say it. The historical source I quoted was not from Koryu.com, but from an article by Alexei Gorbalov run in a newsletter run by a Bujikan member. Now will you try to actually deal with the facts instead of trying to get people to dismiss them out of hand by demonizing the source??????



> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *"I personally wouldn't base any supposed "waterproof" case on internet rumors.... This may be a shock to you, but your opinion and "fact" are not necessarily the same thing. *



Do you speak or read Japanese?? Have you ever been to Japan? What personal experience have _you_ had other than internet rumor? And why are you not willing to deal with the definition of the ninja given in the historical source I listed??

Do yourself a favor, don't make the Bujinkan look worse than it already was. If you can't deal with what I say, get someone on these boards who can.


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## Shadow Hunter (Jul 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Technopunk _
> *
> I have read from MANY sources even from some of the "Takamatsu-den" that the ninja DID engage in open warfare, and DID kill people.  I think the media's depiction of the Ninja as brutal assassin's-for-hire is probably one of Soke Hatsumi's primary reason for saying that is NOT what they were about...*



Technopunk, you raise my opinion of the Bujinkan a bit. I _never_ said that the ninja were assassin's-for-hire. But the fact that they were willing to sneak into a castle and assassinate a warlord is a matter of historical fact. It is a shame that you are less vocal that certain idiots who hide behind their computers and wallow in their ignorance.

:cheers:


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## arnisador (Jul 29, 2003)

Please, keep the discussion polite and professional.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Shadow Hunter (Jul 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Please, keep the discussion polite and professional.
> 
> -Arnisador
> -MT Admin- *



Fine, I can do that. Let us see if people like Heretic888 can. I have put out a historical document that backs up my position. I would like someone to try to deal with it instead of attacking me. Please give exact quotes and sources.

And yes, this means for anything from Hatsumi too. As Technopunk has so rightly pointed out, what Hatsumi has said backs up my side of this debate so far. People have been attrributing their vision of ninjas as black-clad- fuedal- age hippies to Hatsumi, yet they do not seem able to give exact quotes to what they say. Considering the plot of "Shinobi no Mono" which both Masaaki Hatsumi and Toshitsugu Takamatsu were advisors on, I really do not know how anyone with half a brain can say that the ninja did not engage in espionage and assassination. :shrug: 

In fact, I am starting to suspect that Heretic888 might not be a member of the Bujinkan, but rather someone who hates it and is only pretending to defend it while making it look stupid by his actions. I want to hear who he trains with and see if he really is training or not. I have been asked to say who I am, it only seems fair that he show a good example and go first instead of hiding behind his computer. If he will not, then why should I? _Como se dice_ "double standard?"


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## Cryozombie (Jul 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> * I never said that the ninja were assassin's-for-hire.  *



Absolutley, and I never said you did, I said the media portrays them this way.


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## sojobow (Sep 1, 2004)

Shadow Hunter said:
			
		

> Fine, I can do that. Let us see if people like Heretic888 can. I have put out a historical document that backs up my position. I would like someone to try to deal with it instead of attacking me. Please give exact quotes and sources.
> 
> And yes, this means for anything from Hatsumi too.


This thread should  be required reading for modern ninjitsu practitioners.  sojobow mentions an opinion of the Korean connection or the special forces mix with modern ninjitsu and is crazy.  Unbeknowence to me, the subject has been glossed over a year ago.  Then, I find an article written by a Russian Ninja talking about a history.  thanks guys for causing me to look further.:2xBird2:


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## AaronLucia (Sep 1, 2004)

I think a good example of a Ninja would be Jason Bourne.


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## Enson (Sep 1, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> . thanks guys for causing me to look further.:2xBird2:


which post # has russia on it? just so i don't have to read every single post on this thread.


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## George Kohler (Sep 1, 2004)

Shadow Hunter said:
			
		

> You have been running your mouth about how I have been unwilling to give my name, but I am at least willing to give sources while you repeat the mantra "Sensei sez."



Your name wouldn't be Corey Hunter, would it? From California and studies Hwarang Do?


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## sojobow (Sep 2, 2004)

AaronLucia said:
			
		

> I think a good example of a Ninja would be Jason Bourne.


Actually, a very kind and extremely good MA'ist in Dallas Tx (I think) PM'ed me to watch the fight scene with the assassin in Bourne Identity because you will see an example of how to get behind an attacker.  Yes, I agree the character Jason Bourne had elements of Ninjitsu in his character profile.  Real nice apartment too.


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## sojobow (Sep 2, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> which post # has russia on it? just so i don't have to read every single post on this thread.


Evidently, you've misinterpreted my post. The reference to Russian/Russia is in regards to an article I recently found. It's not in the thread mentioned. I mention the thread because I was considered 'comedy' with everyone laughing because I said that there may be a Korean relationship in Japan's Ninjutsu. I posted the article regarding recent DNA findings in "New Implications..." thread. Then, yesturday, I find a whole thread regarding Korean relationships. If I can scan the article regarding russian martial arts history and it's references to Ninja in the territorie's history, I'll post it. I had only a base theory regarding the Chinese connection which started this comedy show. Now, I'm looking further and finding that other's out there see the same relationships. It was worth reading the entire thread (IMOO). Learned a lot.

They also discuss the topic regarding modern special forces which I thought belonged in the modern ninjitsu section.


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## AaronLucia (Sep 2, 2004)

So ya..

Would the guerilla fighters in Iraq and Afghanistan be considered using 'Ninja' methods?


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## AnimEdge (Sep 2, 2004)

In October ill have my Green Belt so ill be(in my view) a Ninja! untill then im unranked...then a high Green in dec, should be fun ^_^


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## Genin Andrew (Sep 3, 2004)

I think some peoples definitions of a "Ninja" are a little too broad...too general maybe. And its sparking alot of confusion/conflict in this thread. Just my opinion.


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## sojobow (Sep 3, 2004)

AaronLucia said:
			
		

> So ya..
> 
> Would the guerilla fighters in Iraq and Afghanistan be considered using 'Ninja' methods?


IMO, not really.


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## AnimEdge (Sep 3, 2004)

Yep my view is broad, i think anyone with a non white belt in whatever ninjutsu they talk should be a low-Ninja like those foot solders in TMNT and any Ninja movie, ya know the first ones to die   Now thats when i talk about people who study Ninjutsu now if we where to view like otehr views of a "Ninja" then Seals and so on would be ninjas as well


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## sojobow (Sep 6, 2004)

AnimEdge said:
			
		

> Yep my view is broad, i think anyone with a non white belt in whatever ninjutsu they talk should be a low-Ninja like those foot solders


Defining is complicated yet simple.  One day we'll figure it out.  But, I know it can be defined in 2 sentences of less.


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