# Hard Body Training?



## CDZ19 (Jun 14, 2007)

Out of all the aspects in which I'm interested in when it comes to Martial Arts (I.E. Grappling, Striking, Throwing, Bone-Breaking...etc) Body Hardening and overall strength are the ones that I would like to start with before branching out.

Now, I've asked plenty of questions about this, and I thought that Muay Thai was the ideal discipline for this type of training, however I think this might only be on the shins and lower body overall. Which is fine, as I plan on taking it anyway (if there are any dojangs/schools in my area).

I'm also well aware of the risk of injury involved. Yeah, after training for a while I may be able to do a lot of damage with a simple punch or kick but is it worth it when about ten years down the line, I won't be able to even zip up my zipper or hold a drink?

All risks aside, my questions go as follows:

1. Is Muay Thai the only discipline that employs this type of training, or can this be found in any other style?

2. As I've learned, kicking a heavy bag is best for training the shins nowadays. The people in Thailand who do Muay Thai competitively, for example, use banana trees and the like but after asking questions around the forum, it seems like they pay for it later on (many of them can't even walk apparently). So if heavy bag usage works well on the legs, does it work well on the fists? And what about punching sand? (Pros and cons)

3. Finally, is there any other way to make your midsection more conditioned aside from just lifting weights? And what about the rest of your body in addition to your hands and legs?


Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.


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## CDZ19 (Jun 15, 2007)

Bleh...I just failed at editing the post. >_>;


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## Yeti (Jun 15, 2007)

Sounds like you're talking about Iron Shirt training (also known as Golden Bell Cover, etc...). If this is really what you're after there is a lot more to it than just striking and you absolutely have to have a good master to help you get there. Iron Palm is only one aspect of it and even that needs to be done properly and under the supervision of someone who knows what they're doing so you don't wind up, as you say, not being able to hold a drink.


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## PictonMA (Jun 15, 2007)

Goju Ryu or Uechi Ryu Karate with a good instructor will net you LOTS of body conditioning as will the right kind of Kung Fu training with the right instructor. (for Iron Palm, Iron Shirt as mentioned above)


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## CDZ19 (Jun 16, 2007)

Now I guess I just have to find the right discipline for me...I doubt there's anyone in St. Louis, Missouri teaching that kind of Martial Art, though.


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## Yeti (Jun 16, 2007)

You'll never know until you look. 
I took a quick look at the Yahoo yellow pages and there are a few Okinawan Karate dojos in the area. One of them for sure was Shorin Ryu which won't give you the "hardening" you want, but there were others too. Take a look.

You've got a lot of great options based on my (brief) look. There are several kung fu schools, including a Southern Praying Mantis school, that look great. Keep in mind that any style is going to teach you how to strike and be struck and will be a great benefit to your overall strength and endurance.  I'm curious about something in your original post. 



CDZ19 said:


> Out of all the aspects in which I'm interested in when it comes to Martial Arts (I.E. Grappling, Striking, Throwing, Bone-Breaking...etc) Body Hardening and overall strength are the ones that I would like to start with before branching out.


 
You make it sound like a "hardening" style is going to be something you stick with for only a little while before "branching out". I would think practice and dedication to any style would serve you better than working for a short time at something that takes a lifetime to properly develop. If you're able to find a good Uechi or Goju school in St. L, then all the better, but that's something you may want to keep in mind.


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## CDZ19 (Jun 17, 2007)

Yeti said:


> You'll never know until you look.
> I took a quick look at the Yahoo yellow pages and there are a few Okinawan Karate dojos in the area. One of them for sure was Shorin Ryu which won't give you the "hardening" you want, but there were others too. Take a look.
> 
> You've got a lot of great options based on my (brief) look. There are several kung fu schools, including a Southern Praying Mantis school, that look great. Keep in mind that any style is going to teach you how to strike and be struck and will be a great benefit to your overall strength and endurance.  I'm curious about something in your original post.
> ...




Oh, I didn't know that it took a lifetime to develop. And (sorry if I mislead you) but by "branching out" I didn't mean that I would stop taking that martial art (although there is always the chance I may not like it) but that I would take other disciplines in addition to it. 

I figure that by getting myself in great condition first, with one main discipline at the core of it all, I could get into other styles? 

Hope that made sense. 

Anyway, thanks for all the help and advice, it was much appreciated.


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## CDZ19 (Jun 17, 2007)

EDIT TO POST ABOVE (Since apparently I can't edit my posts? >_>)

I apologize for misleading you, but my intent was to never abandon any martial art (unless of course I just flat out don't like it for whatever reason).

Let's say for example, that Goju Ryu was the style I decided to start out with, and it turned out to give me a great deal of the aspects that I look for. I would make Goju Ryu my "core" discipline. If I wanted to improve in areas that Goju Ryu would lack, I would take other disciplines to supplement it.

Like perhaps, you would be able to strike very well...but the throwing isn't that great. I would take Judo or some similar style to suffice.

And that's what I mean by "branching out". Abandoning anything you learn (especially something as important as a Martial Arts discipline) would be flat out silly. XD

Lol, I was probably so wrong in those examples...but alas, I am pretty much a beginner. 

Well anyway, thanks again.


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## Yeti (Jun 17, 2007)

CDZ19 said:


> I apologize for misleading you,


 
No apology necessary. You didn't mislead me - but thanks for the clarification.


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## Ryokeen (Jun 18, 2007)

Honestly,
Above all else, find an art you like and stick with it. If you're not enjoying most sessions, it's not worth it. Even if you FEEL like super man, (you won't be), but even if you do feel like him, it won't be a fun learning expirience. And contrary to movies, if it's not fun, it won't hold your intrest long enough for you to even see the benefits of it. Who cares if I can punch you in your sternum and it hurts less then if you punch me in the sternum? Honestly, I love the arts because they're fun, educational, and you grow, together. I don't think a single person in my class is there to be more pain tolerant, though it comes with practice, no one is there for that purpose.

I'd suggest diving into a school that catches your interest and serves your purpose well. Have fun with it, and learn, and grow. It'll take time no matter what school you join to get "tough," but it takes very little time to have fun.

Have fun first, and work hard, and all the things you desire will follow.

Good luck my friend !
Feel free to express any other feelings in this message board along with others!


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 18, 2007)

here are some videos of Uechi Ryu karate-ka demonstrating the conditioning that Uechi Ryu provides.  Shorin Ryu does provide alot more then one might think though.

Kiyohide Shinjo, 8th Dan / Uechi Ryu




 




 
some more here:
http://yoe-inc.com/Karate/images/karate-250K.wmv


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## HG1 (Jun 19, 2007)

Well said Ryokeen. 

CDZ19 - The hardening methods are supplemental trainings to enhance technique. Having an 'iron' whatever will do you little good if you don't know how to properly use it. If you want strength go weight train. It's a far more efficient way to get stronger than martial arts.


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## CDZ19 (Jun 22, 2007)

HG1 said:


> Well said Ryokeen.
> 
> CDZ19 - The hardening methods are supplemental trainings to enhance technique. Having an 'iron' whatever will do you little good if you don't know how to properly use it. If you want strength go weight train. It's a far more efficient way to get stronger than martial arts.




So basically, no matter what form of art I undertake, be it Muay Thai, Goju Ryu or Shorin Ryu, the "hardening techniques" are basically just supplemental training that I use to make whatever discipline that much more effective, at least from a pure power standpoint?

Apologies for taking long to respond, by the way...I've been a little busy lately.


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## CDZ19 (Jun 25, 2007)

I'll take that as a yes. >_>;


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## HG1 (Jun 26, 2007)

CDZ19 said:


> So basically, no matter what form of art I undertake, be it Muay Thai, Goju Ryu or Shorin Ryu, the "hardening techniques" are basically just supplemental training that I use to make whatever discipline that much more effective, at least from a pure power standpoint?
> 
> Apologies for taking long to respond, by the way...I've been a little busy lately.


 
Training proper body mechanics of your chosen martial art would be the best way to increase power. Find an art you will enjoy practicing daily.

No need to apologize, we all get busy from time to time.


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## searcher (Jul 1, 2007)

PictonMA said:


> Goju Ryu or Uechi Ryu Karate with a good instructor will net you LOTS of body conditioning as will the right kind of Kung Fu training with the right instructor. (for Iron Palm, Iron Shirt as mentioned above)


 

This is a good start.   I think you will find that any good Okianwan karate school and most of the Southern Chinese styles incorporate this type of training.   I think that if you are wanting to get a head start you should start working on some very inetnse physical training.   If you are wanting to harden the shins start rolling a bottle over your shins and apply some dit da jow.


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## megat (Jul 5, 2007)

but i think the most important thing is to get a good intructor or get an advice from ur doctor first. don't want to injure anything while doing this stuff right.


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## HG1 (Jul 6, 2007)

megat said:


> but i think the most important thing is to get a good intructor or get an advice from ur doctor first. don't want to injure anything while doing this stuff right.


 
Well said Megat. Long term health care takes first priority. Personally, I'd stick with the advice from an instructor who's successfully completed 'x' training with no adverse effects on overall health.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 6, 2007)

HG1 said:


> Well said Ryokeen.
> 
> CDZ19 -  Having an 'iron' whatever will do you little good if you don't know how to properly use it.


 
I might just have to steal that line and put it in my signature...


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## megat (Jul 8, 2007)

yeah because i have first hand experience , while i was still new to MA i use to punch steel pole,( yeah i know i was a fool ) and now whenever the weather got colder my hands sort of hurt. but i do bend some steel pole if that is any achievement. hahahah.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 8, 2007)

Hitting steel poles is not conditioning thats destructive.


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## megat (Jul 9, 2007)

yeah it is, but it does make ur fist more durable and stronger. but i would not recommend it because it has it side effect as i said above


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## HG1 (Jul 9, 2007)

Brandon is right on the mark. I reiterate proper conditioning will have _no adverse effects on overall health_.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 9, 2007)

megat said:


> yeah it is, but it does make ur fist more durable and stronger. but i would not recommend it because it has it side effect as i said above


I won't even argue this point but proper conditioning does not have adverse effects on your health.


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## megat (Jul 9, 2007)

well as i am at that time a foolish teen knowing almost nutin hehehe, well just another experience for the book.


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## Dale Dugas (Jul 10, 2007)

megat said:


> yeah it is, but it does make ur fist more durable and stronger. but i would not recommend it because it has it side effect as i said above



Actually it does not make your hands stronger.  You need to train your hands the correct way and that is very slowly and over a period of years.  I teach Iron Palm and have not had any problems with people training the CORRECT way.  I have had a few jack a s s e s over the years and they did stupid things that cost them.

You should be using some Iron Palm medicine when you are hitting your hands and Dit Da Jow injury medicine when you are training other body parts.  I make and sell both through my association.  If you are interested follow the links in my signature.

No medicine and no internal exercises means you are going to pay.

I teach both Iron Palm and Iron Vest in Massachusetts as well as through national seminars.  I will be teaching in New Jersey this coming November.  If anyone is interested in seeing what the training is about, come see with your own eyes.

Click on the link below for more information about the weekend long seminar.
http://www.americansocietyofinternalarts.org/continuingeducation/continuingeducation.html

Train hard, but train safely.  These arts are for strength and whole body power building not hurting.

Be well,

Dale


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## searcher (Jul 15, 2007)

Some good info and good discussions going on here.

Got me to thinking about training methods for "iron palm."  I knew of one guy who trained his hands by punching into a bucket of water.   I know, I know, you are thinking, "water, what would that do?"   It actually works pretty darn good and have a minimal damge effect on your hands.   I think if you look into the different training methods, you might be suprised what has been used and what will work effectively.

You have to be smart and decide what is more important to you.


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## tntma12 (Jul 18, 2007)

As far as conditioning your shins, I found using a rolling pin, and rolling it up and down your shins works very well.


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## Em MacIntosh (Jul 25, 2007)

Hold a medicine ball over your head and exhale as you take body shots.  Get your training partner to hit harder as you get better at it.  Tak a few shins to the sides too to get used to the feeling.  It doesn't have to be too hard, you can build up.  It's more of a psychological thing but your muscles do get better at absorbing impact.  Maki-wara.  Proper Iron palm training.  Try hitting the sand with your fingers in a "claw" position.  Hold really big jars and try punching without letting go.


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## CDZ19 (Jul 27, 2007)

Also this is an off-topic question: I learned recently from my time in the forums that some of the greats didn't even learn until they were in the military or of equal age? Is this true, and if so who and what ages did they start.

Also, for the gentleman who's teaching Iron Shirt/Iron Palm, how many years does it take for one to reach "basic" level? 

Thanks a lot guys, this is really helping.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 28, 2007)

I think its beneficial to any martial art.  How long does it take, well years under qualifed supervision though.


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