# Sword katas



## thardey

(Warning -- long post)

Hello,

I have a few questions, and the "search" option didn't yield any results. Normally I am a lurker in forums in general, because I usually don't have any new questions, but I have some specifics in mind, that aren't covered by the "I'm a newbie, please tell me about a website that will make me an uber swordfighter" kind of nonsense.

First, my background, then the questions. :samurai:

I have a 1st degree black in Chun Kuk Do (The style that Chuck Norris developed). Weapons include Nunchaku and Bo staff, although personal choice in weapons is highly encouraged. Others in my school also are fond of sai and kama, although it's not officially part of the curriculum. Put very simply, the philosophy of CKD is to study all forms of Martial Arts, and use the techniques and strategies that work best for you. Sort of a "try and find the best of all worlds" kind of approach. (BTW, this is why it's sometimes hard to "define" what CKD looks like - we all practice it a little different.) "Chun Kuk Do" translates to "The Universal Way".

Along with Karate, I have studied Western Historical Fencing (Think ARMA, for those of you who know what that is) for about 8 years. Mostly 17th century rapier, and sword and buckler (a small round shield).:enguard: I've studied a combination of Marrozzo, Thibault, and Saviolo. The Renaissance theory of learning was that everything is related. Music, fencing, astronomy, geometry, architecture, etc. Again, you have a "Jack of all trades, master of none" kind of approach. 

These two "western" style of martial arts (CKD is an American system, after all) reflect my way of thinking on learning in general, and it seems to work well for me. I am not interested in "do one thing, do it well, and then move on." I certainly appreciate those of you who do specialize, because you provide the research and knowledge to help people who learn the way I do. And certainly everybody learns differently.

Now, finally my questions. :viking1:

I am interested in learning about single sword use from the Eastern Perspective. Right now I thought Id start with the shorter, straighter ninja-to or something similar. (Not the completely straight one, but slightly curved). I have a few specific questions. Again, I just want enough for an introduction to the strategy, not mastery. If I like what I see, Ill pursue that later.

1. The handle is often 11 inches, but the blade is often around 20 inches. Is this sword intended to be used as a two-handed sword, or a single hand? Or both?

2. Is the grip for two hands close together (like a baseball bat?) Or separate (like a hockey stick?).

3. Does the straighter blade indicate a use for thrusting over cutting? If so, is that part of the purpose of the longer handle, to provide reach?

4. Where is the balance point of a proper ninja-to (expressed in inches from the tsuba). Most rapiers have a balance point of 2-3 inches from the crossguard, while a longsword (a bastard sword) is about 4 inches.

5. Are the cuts large, slashing cuts to the face and body, or are they short, quick slices to the arms and legs of the opponent.

6. Is the defense using this type of sword typically a two-beat defense (aka Parry and riposte) or is it a single time defense (avoid while counterattacking)? 

7. Is there a specific kata that is able to demonstrate in motion the answers to these questions?

There is only one samurai sword instructor in the valley where I live, that I know of, and from what I have been able to gather, he is not a qualified sword instructor. I would rather learn the basics from you guys than go to him and learn the specifics wrong. There are no ninjitsu schools within 250 miles of where I live.

Any help would be appreciated.

-Travis


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## Flying Crane

I suspect that the answer you will get here, over and over, is that you need to work with a knowledgeable teacher.  Learning from people here, over the internet, if you cannot meet with them in person, will be no better than working with the unqualified "teacher" who resides in your valley.

Anyone can pick up a sword, swing it about and be dangerous to others, and probably to themselves as well.  Learning proper handling and good technique, to handle the weapon safely and effectively, is another matter, and takes hands-on training with a good teacher.  

Keep looking, perhaps later on you will be in a position to study under a good teacher.  For now, focus on what you already are doing.  Trying to learn sword over the internet, or on videos, just is not a good idea.


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## tellner

If you're interested in learning weapons, find a qualified teacher. If you really want to understand the answers to your questions the first thing you'll need to realize is that there are times when narrow and deep beats wide and shallow.

As to your question, there is no single "Eastern perspective" in swords. There are many different styles of weapon and systems for teaching and using them. A katana looks something like a dha, but Kendo has zip to do with Krabi Krabong. Kali and Kalaripayittu are radically different. The way the Persians use the curved saber doesn't look anything like the way Sumatrans do it. If you want sword forms any decent Chinese school will teach them, but few if any will teach you how to fight with a sword. If you can't find decent Kendo - and it sounds like it might be hard - try looking for Southeast Asian martial arts like Eskrima, Kali, Krabi Krabong, Arnis or Silat.


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## thardey

tellner, 

where are you in orygun? I'm in the south, near Medford


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## thardey

tellner said:


> If you're interested in learning weapons, find a qualified teacher. If you really want to understand the answers to your questions the first thing you'll need to realize is that there are times when narrow and deep beats wide and shallow.
> 
> As to your question, there is no single "Eastern perspective" in swords. There are many different styles of weapon and systems for teaching and using them. A katana looks something like a dha, but Kendo has zip to do with Krabi Krabong. Kali and Kalaripayittu are radically different. The way the Persians use the curved saber doesn't look anything like the way Sumatrans do it. If you want sword forms any decent Chinese school will teach them, but few if any will teach you how to fight with a sword. If you can't find decent Kendo - and it sounds like it might be hard - try looking for Southeast Asian martial arts like Eskrima, Kali, Krabi Krabong, Arnis or Silat.



How will I find which style to pursue If no one can explain to me the basic differences? 

For instance: Without worrying too much about hand/foot timing, the spanish circle, or blade graduation I can at least explain to someone the difference between Italian-style fencing, such as Marrozzo, and Spanish fencing, such as Thibault. From there, someone would be able to determine which style suits their personality and previous training better. Once they've chosen a style, then they can find someone who will train them in it. 

I'm not particularly interested in the Samurai/Katana, but I would like to eventually learn some form of eastern swordsmanship. I need your help to find which one. I thought I'd start with a short sword, but maybe I should just ask people to "sell" me on their particular favorite. 

I just want to know about the different styles so I can choose one to pursue.

-Travis


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## Charles Mahan

thardey said:


> How will I find which style to pursue If no one can explain to me the basic differences?


 
Well.  The usual method of finding a style starts with finding out what's available in your area.  There are precious few legitimate training options to be had in most regions of the US.  You will be lucky if there is even one in your area.  That will likely make your decision for you unless you are willing to move.  If you are one of the lucky few who have more than one option available for you, then you can do some research on those particular options.



> I'm not particularly interested in the Katana, but I would like to eventually learn some form of eastern swordsmanship. I need your help to find which one. I thought I'd start with a short sword, but maybe I should just ask people to "sell" me on their particular favorite.


 
This is probably for the best.  You don't seem to be genuinely interested enough in any particular sword art for most JSA instructors to consider you worth the time.  The mixed martial art philosophy you described above is a VERY poor fit for the traditional JSA world.

Good luck with whatever you do settle into.


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## thardey

Charles Mahan said:


> This is probably for the best.  You don't seem to be genuinely interested enough in any particular sword art for most JSA instructors to consider you worth the time.  The mixed martial art philosophy you described above is a VERY poor fit for the traditional JSA world.
> 
> Good luck with whatever you do settle into.



Exactly. My lack of interest in the katana has more to do with a disagreement over the philosophy of the samurai rather than the physics of the weapon itself. I wouldn't imagine I would do well in that type of dojo. 

When I explained my philosophy of learning to a Jujuitsu student, he suggested that the Japanese also liked the idea of borrowing from all, then making it their own. I don't know what exactly he was referring to, since I don't know much of Japanese culture, and most of my experience in the MA is either Western, or Korean.

I guess this is why I thought the ninja-to might be a good place to start, since the "ninjitstu mantra" seems to go along the lines of "do whatever works".  I wanted to see if that was true, or just another "super street fighter" kind of advertisement.

-Travis


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## Blindside

thardey said:


> I guess this is why I thought the ninja-to might be a good place to start, since the "ninjitstu mantra" seems to go along the lines of "do whatever works". I wanted to see if that was true, or just another "super street fighter" kind of advertisement.


 
Well, to start with the straight-bladed square-tsubad, "ninja-to" has about as much historical accuracy as 10 pound western "broadswords."  

Where are you located?  Perhaps someone could give you suggestions for instruction.

Lamont


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## thardey

Blindside said:


> Well, to start with the straight-bladed square-tsubad, "ninja-to" has about as much historical accuracy as 10 pound western "broadswords."
> 
> Where are you located?  Perhaps someone could give you suggestions for instruction.
> 
> Lamont



See above, I'm in Medford, Oregon.

What would be historically accurrate? 

I'm looking for something like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjaken

"According to the same book by Masaaki Hatsumi, the ninja ken was straight, but only in contrast to the average sword of the period which were much more curved. The ninja ken still had a slight curve to the sword. Hatsumi says that they were often straight bars of low-quality steel with an edge ground on to them. According to other sources, some of the sword being forged during the Tokugawa era also had blades with less curvature than others.. This was also the period during which the mythology of the ninja grew as they were employed by the Shogun as secret police.

The Bujinkan dojo currently contains one school, the Togakure ryu, which teaches the use of the ninja ken. Typically, this is a wakizashi-length sword (or slightly longer) that has been outfitted with katana sized koshirae (fittings). The idea behind a shorter sword is that it is much easier to fight in close quarters with a shorter sword, as would be necessary for a ninja acting as an intelligence-gatherer."


See, I'm an amateur swordsmith, and I've built several western swords which have received approval of my fencing instructor. (Gladius, Viking single-handed sword, longsword (commonly -- and wrongly -- known as a "bastard sword"), and a cutlass. I want to try swords from other parts of the world.

Each sword is built with a specific use in mind. I liked this idea of starting with a ninjaken, or ninjato, or or wakizashi with oversized fittings, or whatever it's historically called, because I read in the book. "Ninja and their Secret Fighting Art" by Stephen Hayes, that ninja were encouraged to make their own weapons. I liked the idea, but first I have to at least have a cursory understanding of how the weapon was used. It's more likely to be hung on a wall if I like it, and used as a machete if I don't. I'm not planning on entering any tournaments with a new sword form, but I would like to see a form, so that I can build a sword which would work well in it.

In order to build a sword with the proper balance, I have to know certain things, like two-handed or one? Small, quick cuts or large slashing ones? What kind of grip? etc. 

In this way I will understand a sword in a much different way than someone who only swings one around. Also the history and philosophy of a culture is readily apparent in the designs of their weapons and armour.

Another facet to what I am searching for. Maybe this will help.


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## thardey

tellner said:


> If you're interested in learning weapons, find a qualified teacher. If you really want to understand the answers to your questions the first thing you'll need to realize is that there are times when narrow and deep beats wide and shallow.




"Wide and shallow" is not a very accurate description of what I am doing. I prefer the concept of a woven fabric.

Just as a bulletproof vest is able to stop a bullet by using tightly-woven strands, built over a hard foundation, so to speak, I try to "weave" together various other disciplines to help me understand more.

In this case, I am combining the balance and lead and follow of my ballroom dancing, with the timing and rythym of my guitar, with the power and stance of my hard style karate training and the speed and penetration of my soft karate training (both a large part of CKD), with the stragegies and footwork of my fencing, with the physics and balance of my bladesmithing, with the philosophy and understanding of my history study, and the theology of my religion.

As I understand any one of these better, or add another "weave" to the whole fabric of my life, I become more in tune with the world around me. As my dancing improves, so does my fighting, as well as my understanding of women. Everything I learn helps me to learn more things. As my concept of a "single time" defence vs a "double time" defence becomes clearer, it translates into a better understanding of music. The better I understand history, the clearer perspective I have on religion.

It is not a "Western" Philosophy only. It is an "old" philosophy that we have moved away from in the modern world. It's a philosphy older than ancient Babylon.

For some of us, wide does not necessarily mean shallow.

-Travis


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## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:


> I suspect that the answer you will get here, over and over, is that you need to work with a knowledgeable teacher. Learning from people here, over the internet, if you cannot meet with them in person, will be no better than working with the unqualified "teacher" who resides in your valley.
> 
> Anyone can pick up a sword, swing it about and be dangerous to others, and probably to themselves as well. Learning proper handling and good technique, to handle the weapon safely and effectively, is another matter, and takes hands-on training with a good teacher.
> 
> Keep looking, perhaps later on you will be in a position to study under a good teacher. For now, focus on what you already are doing. Trying to learn sword over the internet, or on videos, just is not a good idea.


 
What he said

Find a qualified teacher, weapons are dangerous even with a teacher worse without.


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## jks9199

thardey said:


> In this case, I am combining the balance and lead and follow of my ballroom dancing, with the timing and rythym of my guitar, with the power and stance of my hard style karate training and the speed and penetration of my soft karate training (both a large part of CKD), with the stragegies and footwork of my fencing, with the physics and balance of my bladesmithing, with the philosophy and understanding of my history study, and the theology of my religion.


 
You've got interesting and complex goals -- but you're going about learning an "Eastern Sword Art" the wrong way.  As a comparison, it's like you've walked into a restaurant district featuring dozens of restaurants from many cultures, and said "Feed me cultural food."  Just like there are different European fencing schools, or different styles of guitar or dance, each influenced by the culture and environment where they were developed, each Eastern nation (and sometimes sub-national groups like regional tribes) developed their own swords and their own approaches to using those swords.  Even though the swords may look similar, there are key fundamental differences between the use of the katana and the dao -- there are also major differences.  There are even differences between each school of swordsmanship with the same blade.

Listen to the advice of the people here; nobody has said "Don't learn a sword."  They've said that you can't learn a sword without a proper instructor, so start by finding out what instructors are in your range.  Some may require more commitment than you're willing to make; others may not teach the sword until you've learned the unarmed portion of their system.  You mentioned learning the sword techniques of ninjutsu; they're integrated with their empty-hand taijutsu.  I doubt you'll find someone who will teach you "ninja kenjutsu" without saying you need to learn Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (or whichever school you choose).  It would be like trying to learn flamenco guitar using a bassoon.

Do some more research; see what styles of blade work are available in your area, and since you want to consider forging your own blades -- which ones are reasonably amenable to that, as well.  (The techniques involved in forging a katana are complex, for example, and I suspect that even a very talented amateur is unlikely to produce a usable blade.  But kukri and some kris blades?  Much simpler.)  See what styles are compatable with your current training as well; why add yet another complex system of movement on top of your hard & soft karate, dance, fencing and whatever else you've done?  To use your comparison of weaving -- there comes a point when you can't braid/weave/twine anything else together without creating a knot instead of a tapestry.

And there's just no substitute for a real live, personal instructor.  Could you have learned karate solely from a book?  There are intricate pieces that just cannot be conveyed effectively in text or corrected except by a trained eye.  Can I read a book or watch a video and learn how to forge a blade?

To go back to your original post... you listed a series of questions.  Several of them were asked as "yes/no" or "either/or" when the actual answer is "sometimes" or "in some schools  or some situations."  It seems as if perhaps you started to find some of that out with some of your later posts.


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## Charles Mahan

thardey said:


> Exactly. My lack of interest in the katana has more to do with a disagreement over the philosophy of the samurai rather than the physics of the weapon itself. I wouldn't imagine I would do well in that type of dojo.
> -Travis


With your expressed goals, I doubt you'd be given a chance to try.  Keep in mind that many of the JSA teachers have been pouring decades into their chosen art.  It's a very deep field of study which requires years and years of dedicated practice to have even the most basic understanding of how a system works.  

Let's put it this way, I've been studying MJER Iai under a Nanadan Kyoshi for nearly 10 years. When I go to Japan in November, I will be a complete nobody who has just barely reached a point to be considered teachable by the higher ups.  My instructor who has been training since 1980, ten of those years in Chiba at a top notch dojo, is fond of saying that at a tournament in Japan he would be one of the guys sweeping the floor before the competition.

In an art like that where it takes so long to train people up to a minimum level of proficiency, instructors feel a very real responsibility to pass on the teachings which their instructors worked so long and hard to pass on to them.  These teachers are almost without exception not making any money to speak of.  It's a labor of love.  Smaller classes are better, so there is absolutely no incentive to take on students other than to pass on the teachings of the style to the next generation.  So why should an instructor waste time on a student who is only interested in learning the very basics to add to their bag of tournament tricks and move on to something else?  That time would be better spent teaching the serious students.

I'm not saying that there is no value in the kind of MMA stuff you are into.  Clearly lots of folks find a great deal of value in it.  Far more than are interested in the traditional martial arts world.  Just trying to explain why I think your training attitude is a poor fit for the JSA world.  There is a saying I've heard frequently regarding style hoppers.  Jack of all trades, master of none.


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## Cryozombie

thardey said:


> (Warning -- long post)
> 
> Right now I thought I&#8217;d start with the shorter, straighter ninja-to or something similar. (Not the completely straight one, but slightly curved). I have a few specific questions.
> 
> 3. Does the straighter blade indicate a use for thrusting over cutting? If so, is that part of the purpose of the longer handle, to provide reach?
> 
> 4. Where is the balance point of a proper ninja-to
> 
> 7. Is there a specific kata that is able to demonstrate in motion the answers to these questions?
> 
> There is only one samurai sword instructor in the valley where I live, that I know of, and from what I have been able to gather, he is not a qualified sword instructor. I would rather learn the basics from you guys than go to him and learn the specifics wrong. There are no ninjitsu schools within 250 miles of where I live.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> -Travis



Travis...

1) Ninja-to is fiction.  It doesn't exist.  The closest thing  I am aware of is the Katana used by the Togakure-ryu,   which in the saya resembles a Katana in almost every way.  Once drawn, however, you can see that it has a much shorter blade... which makes clearing the saya on a draw quicker, and it can be done from deceptive angles and from "too close" to your opponent.  

In fact, let me reference you to THIS post for a comparison photo.

2) The Blade isn't straighter... just shorter.

3) I don't know that the "Balance point" matters much when doing Togakure-ryu stuff, BUT I could be wrong as I have only seen a handful of Togakure-ryu sword durring a seminar, and some odd drawing stuff from a guest we had at our dojo for a couple weeks... 

4) Kata in Ninpo are not like what you expect when you hear "Kata".  We don't have "forms" like, You know... "Kata"... (crap its hard to seperate the terms)... Kata in Ninpo is closer to what schools do as "one step sparring" or whatever it's called... an attacker does the attack, you do a pre-defined defense, and then, repeat... so I don't know that you will find what you are looking for... 

Basically... to sum this up... there are no actual techniques designed for the Hollywood Ninja-to... except maybe for what guys like Ashida Kim or some of those fake ninja created...  and due to the esoteric nature of the Togakure-ryu sword and the chance that you could find someone to demonstrate the techniques properly to you... (keep in mind these are techniques designed with small deceptive movements for a "cut and run" type of attack, not so much a "swordfight"... lots of stuff you can miss if you just "see" them without it explained to you) So you would probably be better off looking at a "standard" Katana or, if you want a straighter sword, somthing Chinese maybe.


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## Ninjamom

I suppose, THardey, given your many goals and Charles' comments, you need to make a decision about WHICH of your goals are most important to you.  If it is most important to you that you learn a historically-accurate Eastern sword approach, then you are fairly limited in choices, and you might want to reconsider the Japanese 'old school' sword arts.  These are the only 'eastern arts' that I am aware of that have a real legacy of historically verifiable techniques - techniques that have been passed down for centuries from the time when they were used in combat.  Other arts do not have that unbroken chain, linking the art to its historical context (and this comment is coming from a student of Korean sword arts).  As Charles pointed out, if you reconsidered the Japanese arts, you would have to reconsider your committment in time and effort to mastering a single sword style.

If your most important goal is avoiding the JSA world and the katana, then you should look into Chinese sword forms, but as has been previously mentioned, there just aren't many schools that teach swordwork outside of a complete empty-handed curriculum.

If any-old 'eastern sword art' will do, and you just want to get the flavor of the art without having to master a new empty-hand system (and maybe pick up some sword techniques and strategy), then you might try haedong gumdo.

If you want to emphasize techniques used in a sparring/fencing environment, or if you prefer the sport/competitive aspects of sword work, you might try kendo, or kumdo (both have the added advantage of usually having some traditional techniques and kata with the two-handed sword, as well as the fencing curriculum).


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## Don Roley

thardey said:


> I guess this is why I thought the ninja-to might be a good place to start, since the "ninjitstu mantra" seems to go along the lines of "do whatever works".  I wanted to see if that was true, or just another "super street fighter" kind of advertisement.



It is kind of the later. When the art first came to America, there was very little outside of the basics being taught. And even in the case of the basics, there were a lot of people that did not know even that. But they wanted to teach a lot of things like swords, knife and other things that they had not been trained in. So they borrowed from other sources and that kind of clashed with what was being shown in Japan. It is not that the other sources are _wrong_- only that they were designed with slightly different purposes in mind. (Kind of like trying to use a lot of sport fencing stuff in classical rapier- it looks good if you don't really know what is going on.)

There are limits on what the ninja did because there are limits on what people can do and you have to build an art around that reality.

As for the link about the ninjaken- listen to CryofZombie. The stuff that is in that article you linked to is built on a book written by SKH trying to translate stuff from Japanese and making a lot of mistakes. Best to just ignore the entire thing than try to seperate the few good pieces mixed in with all the problem stuff.


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## thardey

Ninjamom said:


> If any-old 'eastern sword art' will do, and you just want to get the flavor of the art without having to master a new empty-hand system (and maybe pick up some sword techniques and strategy), then you might try haedong gumdo.




Ninjamom, 

I looked up haedong gumdo on wikipedia, and I thank you very much for the suggestion. I think it is well worth looking into. 

Would you agree with the quote below?

"Haidong Gumdo may be generally characterized as exchanging multiple strikes of the sword for one strike of the sword. The one strike concept characterizes the Japanese method. The Japanese ideal of "one strike, one kill" is prevalent in Japanese kendo (kumdo), even today. The merits and limitations of each of the philosophies may be debated endlessly. Probably the best way to characterize the main difference between Japanese Kendo and the Korean Haidong Gumdo styles is through training philosophy:

The Japanese technique primarily focuses on one-versus-one, or individual combat.
The Korean technique primarily focuses on one-versus-many, or battlefield combat.
 The essence of Haidong Gumdo is in _shimgum_, a concept similar to the that of the Spanish _duende_, as coined by the Spanish poet, García Lorca. _Shimgum_ is the unification of the mind, body and spirit expressing itself through the use of the sword. It implies a technical mastery of the sword, but transcends technical limitations. One can be "technically perfect" but still not achieve _shimgum_. _Shimgum_ is what makes Haidong Gumdo not only a martial science but also a martial art."



This idea of Shimgum may be my "goal" you expressed earlier. The one that I need to decide which is more important to me. I'm searching for a goal - all of my various pursuits seem to point me towards one thing. That one thing isn't defined yet. That one thing is my goal.



Also, would you agree with the "multiple strikes" vs. "one strike" comment? 




And is there any more information you can point me towards? It seems that everything on the 'net, or wikipedia is so untrustworthy, it would be nice to have a personal recommendation on what information to trust. 




Do you study under the Daehan Haidong Gumdo Federation under Kim Jeong-Ho, or the Hanguk Haedong Gumdo Federation under Na Han-Il?



-Travis


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## thardey

Cryozombie said:


> Travis...
> 
> 1) Ninja-to is fiction.  It doesn't exist.  The closest thing  I am aware of is the Katana used by the Togakure-ryu,   which in the saya resembles a Katana in almost every way.  Once drawn, however, you can see that it has a much shorter blade... which makes clearing the saya on a draw quicker, and it can be done from deceptive angles and from "too close" to your opponent.
> 
> In fact, let me reference you to THIS post for a comparison photo.
> 
> 2) The Blade isn't straighter... just shorter.
> 
> 3) I don't know that the "Balance point" matters much when doing Togakure-ryu stuff, BUT I could be wrong as I have only seen a handful of Togakure-ryu sword durring a seminar, and some odd drawing stuff from a guest we had at our dojo for a couple weeks...
> 
> 4) Kata in Ninpo are not like what you expect when you hear "Kata".  We don't have "forms" like, You know... "Kata"... (crap its hard to seperate the terms)... Kata in Ninpo is closer to what schools do as "one step sparring" or whatever it's called... an attacker does the attack, you do a pre-defined defense, and then, repeat... so I don't know that you will find what you are looking for...
> 
> Basically... to sum this up... there are no actual techniques designed for the Hollywood Ninja-to... except maybe for what guys like Ashida Kim or some of those fake ninja created...  and due to the esoteric nature of the Togakure-ryu sword and the chance that you could find someone to demonstrate the techniques properly to you... (keep in mind these are techniques designed with small deceptive movements for a "cut and run" type of attack, not so much a "swordfight"... lots of stuff you can miss if you just "see" them without it explained to you) So you would probably be better off looking at a "standard" Katana or, if you want a straighter sword, somthing Chinese maybe.



Thank you very much. That is very helpful. 

I suspected as much about the kata, the idea of a long, 13 or 18 step form didn't seem like something you would see in ninpo.  We study the "one-step" type of practice extensively in CKD, in fact as part of the "make it your own" type of philosophy, you are expected to not only learn the traditional "one-step" forms, but to design 6 of your own to be approved by the testing board before your Black Belt test. It is the place in which you must demonstrate that you have learned the principles of the strikes instead of just the motions, by making them "yours".

The swords are beautiful. I always liked the simple, functional look. "Beauty in simplicity". It seems to apply to both the weapons, and the use of them.

What is the proper name for the "Katana used by the Togakure-ryu"? So that I can stop using terms like "ninjaken" or "ninjato"?

-Travis


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## thardey

Don Roley said:


> As for the link about the ninjaken- listen to CryofZombie. The stuff that is in that article you linked to is built on a book written by SKH trying to translate stuff from Japanese and making a lot of mistakes. Best to just ignore the entire thing than try to seperate the few good pieces mixed in with all the problem stuff.



I will probably pursue this on one of the ninjustu boards, but is there a thread you could reference that has already disscussed SKH and other Masaaki Hatsumi "disciples"? I would hate to find an opportunity to study Bujinkan and then find out later that I have been learning from an "Ashida Kim" disciple, or a poorly trained "ninja wannabe".

Apparently there is a large ninpo school in Portland, and it is possible that in the next few years they may open a branch were I live. Dojo's are popping up here faster than Starbucks. What credentials should I look for?

(If this is an inappropriate board to ask this question on, please let me know the etiquette for moving it.)


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## Ninjamom

thardey said:


> Would you agree with the quote below?
> 
> "Haidong Gumdo may be generally characterized as exchanging multiple strikes of the sword for one strike of the sword. The one strike concept characterizes the Japanese method. The Japanese ideal of "one strike, one kill" is prevalent in Japanese kendo (kumdo), even today. The merits and limitations of each of the philosophies may be debated endlessly. Probably the best way to characterize the main difference between Japanese Kendo and the Korean Haidong Gumdo styles is through training philosophy:
> 
> The Japanese technique primarily focuses on one-versus-one, or individual combat.
> The Korean technique primarily focuses on one-versus-many, or battlefield combat.



Yes, I agree.



> The essence of Haidong Gumdo is in _shimgum_, a concept similar to the that of the Spanish _duende_, as coined by the Spanish poet, García Lorca. _Shimgum_ is the unification of the mind, body and spirit expressing itself through the use of the sword. It implies a technical mastery of the sword, but transcends technical limitations. One can be "technically perfect" but still not achieve _shimgum_. _Shimgum_ is what makes Haidong Gumdo not only a martial science but also a martial art."


partly yes, partly no.  I think any weapons art strives to attain a seamless flow that makes the weapon an extension of the body (to the point of moving as another member of the body).  You can probably attest to the same goal in Western fencing, or even in playing a musical instrument.



> This idea of Shimgum may be my "goal" you expressed earlier. The one that I need to decide which is more important to me. I'm searching for a goal - all of my various pursuits seem to point me towards one thing. That one thing isn't defined yet. That one thing is my goal.


 that sort of makes sense to me.  I think you are looking to make all the pieces fit together into one 'whole' that makes sense and flows together.



> Also, would you agree with the "multiple strikes" vs. "one strike" comment?


 Absolutley.  More so in the Daehan Federation, which emphasizes the long forms more.  The Hankuk federation has an extensive curriculum of chukdo/shinai drills that bear striking resemblance in form and function to Japanese kendo drills, but all using a one-handed sword approach.



> And is there any more information you can point me towards? It seems that everything on the 'net, or wikipedia is so untrustworthy, it would be nice to have a personal recommendation on what information to trust.


Ignore anything that claims to provide a history of the art going back thousands of years - such histories are pure marketing fiction.  Ignore anything that gets into a debate over whether the sword and style are really Korean, Japanese, or Chinese.  Each area had its own martial culture; each used straight, curved, double, and single-edged weapons; and each fought the others for centuries, so that there was continual flux of tactics and technology as they responded to each other.  Most websites will have accurate information regarding descriptions of the techniques, mechanics, footwork, general curriculm, and forms.

For some good overview clips, see the video links on this page.  You may also view an outline of basic techniques here and see a video clip of a Korean Master performing them here.  If I may (humbly) recommend my school's website, you may view it here (please especially check out the 'Links' page for a pretty inclusive set of links to HDGD schools from all the major federations).  Without a doubt, however, the best one-stop for information on the art of haidong gumdo and discussion with people far more knowledgeable than myself is at Anthony Boyd's HDGD website here.  To get the most benefit, you should join (free) to have full access to all the forums, but there is a special 'General Questions' section that doesn't require membership, specifically for people to discuss what HDGD is all about.



> Do you study under the Daehan Haidong Gumdo Federation under Kim Jeong-Ho, or the Hanguk Haedong Gumdo Federation under Na Han-Il?


 Aha!! Someone has done some research!!  Our school is currently non-alligned, although our curriculum leans more towards the Hankuk side.  We also incorporate a lot of drills from KKF Kumdo, which is the same as Japanese kendo (and why I feel at least a little bit able to comment on both styles).

Cheers, Travis!  Feel free to PM me with any more specific questions on haidong gumdo, or post on the board for more discussion and wider feedback.


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## thardey

Ninjamom,

Thank you very much, I have bookmarked all of those links, and will spend some time following up on them.

I will certainly keep an eye out for any chance to see a Haidong Gumdo instructor in person, and will be sure not to pass that up!

I have only watched a couple of videos so far, but I can definitely see the Korean influence on CKD. 9 out of 11 forms required for 1st Black are traditional Korean. (3 "Geichos" 5 "Pian-ans" and "Basai".) The 10th is a modified Korean.

I like how different types and lengths of swords are used for different situations. Thank you for showing me a new art to appreciate. Before yesterday I didn't even know there was a Korean Sword Art.

Thank you. :asian:

Travis


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## tellner

Hey Thardey, I was talking to my friend Mushtaq who lived and taught Silat in the area for several years. There are a few Filipino Martial Arts schools in the area. If you're willing to travel to Eugene once in a while Kru Mike Walrath coaches Thai boxing. He also teaches Krabi Krabong, the Thai military martial art which includes sword, pair of swords, spear, halberd, vambraces, throwing knife, empty hand and more. He was one of the first (hard core) Americans to go to Buddai Swan in Thailand and go through the whole instructors' program. Great guy, fantastic teacher. There are or were Bangau Putih Silat people in your area, but I don't know how to get a hold of them. They practice a form of Silat with a lot of Chinese influence and may teach Chinese sword technique.


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## Sukerkin

I'm not sure that I fully agree that the phrase:

"The Japanese technique primarily focuses on one-versus-one, or individual combat"

is accurate.

I study MJER iaido and a large proportion of the kata in the art are targeted towards dealing with multiple opponents.  I think that the Katori Shinto chaps would take exception to their art being characterised as 'non-battlefield' too .

Sad to say, if you're searching for a simple cut-and-dried, one phrase, distinction, then I fear that disappointment awaits.  I'm afraid that trying to find such black and white definitions is in part responsible for the spread of misconceptions within the martial arts in general.


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## shesulsa

I'm not sure I can add anything to what's already been said, though I must say, "Good Luck" with finding someone who will train you with the mindset you've admitted to.

If you find a good swordsmanship instructor in the Portland/Vancouver area, I'd appreciate the information as I like to try to keep up with who is in my area.

Thanks.


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## Charles Mahan

There is a Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Sandan (Canadian Iaido Association) in Portland now.  His name is John Prichard.  I believe he plans to open a dojo if he hasn't already.  I had a chance to meet him at this last US Iaido Embukai.  Good guy with solid Iai.  He should have a lot to teach new students and his connections to Japan go back through Esaka Seigen-sensei 10th Dan and Vice President of the Zen Nippon Iaido Renmei.


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## shesulsa

Charles Mahan said:


> There is a Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Sandan (Canadian Iaido Association) in Portland now.  His name is John Prichard.  I believe he plans to open a dojo if he hasn't already.  I had a chance to meet him at this last US Iaido Embukai.  Good guy with solid Iai.  He should have a lot to teach new students and his connections to Japan go back through Esaka Seigen-sensei 10th Dan and Vice President of the Zen Nippon Iaido Renmei.


Thank you. :asian:


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## thardey

Sukerkin said:


> Sad to say, if you're searching for a simple cut-and-dried, one phrase, distinction, then I fear that disappointment awaits.  I'm afraid that trying to find such black and white definitions is in part responsible for the spread of misconceptions within the martial arts in general.



Too true, how can you sum up a lifetime/generation/era philosophy of fighting in one sentence?


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## thardey

tellner said:


> Hey Thardey, I was talking to my friend Mushtaq who lived and taught Silat in the area for several years. There are a few Filipino Martial Arts schools in the area. If you're willing to travel to Eugene once in a while Kru Mike Walrath coaches Thai boxing. He also teaches Krabi Krabong, the Thai military martial art which includes sword, pair of swords, spear, halberd, vambraces, throwing knife, empty hand and more. He was one of the first (hard core) Americans to go to Buddai Swan in Thailand and go through the whole instructors' program. Great guy, fantastic teacher. There are or were Bangau Putih Silat people in your area, but I don't know how to get a hold of them. They practice a form of Silat with a lot of Chinese influence and may teach Chinese sword technique.



I appreciate the homework and effort you've put into that information. I will definitely keep that in mind, and see what my future travel plans hold. Is there a website that you could point me to that is a good introduction to Krabi Krabong? I've heard of it, but I don't know anything about it.


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## Don Roley

thardey said:


> I will probably pursue this on one of the ninjustu boards, but is there a thread you could reference that has already disscussed SKH and other Masaaki Hatsumi "disciples"? I would hate to find an opportunity to study Bujinkan and then find out later that I have been learning from an "Ashida Kim" disciple, or a poorly trained "ninja wannabe".
> 
> Apparently there is a large ninpo school in Portland, and it is possible that in the next few years they may open a branch were I live. Dojo's are popping up here faster than Starbucks. What credentials should I look for?
> 
> (If this is an inappropriate board to ask this question on, please let me know the etiquette for moving it.)



Go to Winjutsu.com. If they are there, they are associated with Hatsumi and the Bujinkan. 

There are other orginizations as well. And there are a few Bujinkan dojos that fall through the cracks. I know of a few that don't have web pages.

So if it is not on winjutsu, start a thread in the ninjutsu section here asking about it. If anyone knows about them, they will tell you.

Hope this helps. It looks like you got a choice of Krabi Krabong as well as Muso Jikeden Eishin ryu as well. It may be that if you really want to learn sword, you might want to go with them instead. Many Bujinkan instructors teach sword, but don't really know it. That is slowly changing thanks to people like Luke Molitor, I hope.


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## tellner

If you're willing to come as far as Portland there are more options. The Obukan Kendo club is excellent. There are plenty of Filipino Martial Arts schools. I don't know if any of the Chinese martial arts kwoons teach anything about the sword besides form, but it's worth a look. Kru Steve Wilson (http://www.chalambok.us) is a top-flight Krabi Krabong teacher and does private lessons.


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## pgsmith

> I study MJER iaido and a large proportion of the kata in the art are targeted towards dealing with multiple opponents. I think that the Katori Shinto chaps would take exception to their art being characterised as 'non-battlefield' too.


Actually, the vast majority of the Japanese sword arts is "non-battlefield" since swords were historically not used on the battlefield. They were more akin to modern day side arm in usage. There are lots of opportunities today to train in such things as quick draw pistol techniques, target acquisition and discernment, and quick shot urban pistol usage. However, if someone was to go into a battle, they would NOT be depending upon their sidearm. They would have an automatic rifle, or an M50 machine gun, or a tank! These are battlefield weapons. The sidearm may occassionally be used in certain situations, but it would hardly be worthwhile to spend too much time training for those rare occassions. 
The sword, at least in Japanese history, was much the same. Battles were mostly fought using distance weapons and spears. the number of recorded sword casualties is actually pretty small, and there's no telling how many of those casualties were actually "guarantee they aren't faking" type of usage.

Here is an interesting email from Karl Friday, professor of East Asian history at the University of Georgia, that he put on the Iaido-L email list a number of years ago ... http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9911&L=iaido-l&P=R4481&D=0&H=0&I=-3&O=T&T=1

The original email discussion centered around the use of firearms in the battlefield, but notice the number of sword casualties versus the total numbers.


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## thardey

Don Roley said:


> Go to Winjutsu.com. If they are there, they are associated with Hatsumi and the Bujinkan.



Thank you very much, I'll go check that out.



> Hope this helps. It looks like you got a choice of Krabi Krabong as well as Muso Jikeden Eishin ryu as well. It may be that if you really want to learn sword, you might want to go with them instead. Many Bujinkan instructors teach sword, but don't really know it. That is slowly changing thanks to people like Luke Molitor, I hope.


I have a friend who is a multiple Dan in Eishin ryu. He's more interested in stick fighting, and he's never mentioned sword training -- but I've never asked him. I'll have to pick his brain.


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## thardey

pgsmith said:


> Actually, the vast majority of the Japanese sword arts is "non-battlefield" since swords were historically not used on the battlefield. They were more akin to modern day side arm in usage.




I think you're right -- there's a big difference though between "multiple opponents" and "Battlefield".

I think everyone would agree that the rapier was useless in battle, but we have a lot of fun fencing two-on one, three-on-two, or sometimes even three-on-one scenarios. There are techniques that are appropriate for those situations. 

The historical scenario would be an attack by a poorly trained group of robbers on a (surprise!) well trained swordsman. Since many people carried a sword as a sign of class, it was hard to know who actually knew how to use it. (Like many people who carry concealed handguns today.)

I would imagine that the sidesword in Japan could be used the same way. Very effective for a duel, still quite useful to defend against a few thugs, but only carried as a backup weapon in battle. (Or perhaps as an homage to ancestors or some spiritual link.)

I've been very surprised by how short the Katanas seem to be. (Remember, I'm used to bastard swords and rapers - minimum 30"-35" blades). It seems that a katana would be useless on a horse, or against one, which would be your biggest battlefield concern. I've heard of longer katana-type swords for cavalry, the ones they wore on their back - the name escapes me at the moment, but they would be too long to carry everyday for personal defense.


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## pgsmith

> The historical scenario would be an attack by a poorly trained group of robbers on a (surprise!) well trained swordsman. Since many people carried a sword as a sign of class, it was hard to know who actually knew how to use it. (Like many people who carry concealed handguns today.)


  Actually, that is incorrect. In feudal Japan robbers were not generally poorly trained, they were simply samurai from the losing side. Banditry was the most normal occupation for the ronin. Also, it is actually fairly easy to tell a trained swordsman from an untrained one just by how they move. If this can be done today, how much easier would it have been back when these swords were actually used?




> It seems that a katana would be useless on a horse, or against one, which would be your biggest battlefield concern.


  If you read the bit that I linked to, you'd discover that *rocks* are much more of a battlefield concern than anything having to do with swords.


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## Sukerkin

I agree with your summations in post 31 above, *pgsmith*, the only thing I'd emphasise a touch is that Katori Shinto is a battlefield art (or at least an armoured one) - that's it's raison d'etre.

The reason I respond at all (having said that I agree with you) is just that with your use of a quote from me it intimates that I actually said something contrary to what you did, when in fact what I was referenceing was something specifically sword oriented.  

To clarify still further as to why I'm banging on about this, in years gone by, when I was only starting to learn about the useage of 'medieval' weaponry, I used to vehemently argue that the sword could beat anything, especially knives-on-sticks (aka polearms) and that out of context quote made me shiver with embarassed recollection of those past arguments .

Stepping outside of that narrow confine, then as I say, I agree wholeheartedly.  In 'historical' times the katana was a side-arm, allbeit a useful one, and a samurai would be more likely to make use of yari, naginata or bow (or even gun) in battlefield confrontations.


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## thardey

pgsmith said:


> Actually, that is incorrect. In feudal Japan robbers were not generally poorly trained, they were simply samurai from the losing side. Banditry was the most normal occupation for the ronin.



Now that's an interesting bit of history - where can I find more information on that?



> Also, it is actually fairly easy to tell a trained swordsman from an untrained one just by how they move. If this can be done today, how much easier would it have been back when these swords were actually used?


It's easy for a trained swordsman to tell another swordsman -- but the untrained "low-level" robber has a hard time. They don't know what to look for. Most people are absolutely shocked when they find out I can handle a sword or do karate (I'm pretty laid back) -- but others with sword/karate experience know it before I say anything.



> If you read the bit that I linked to, you'd discover that *rocks* are much more of a battlefield concern than anything having to do with swords.


Gotta give credit to the simple weapons! (I was referring to horses in context of sword-combat -- actually, now that I think of it, katanas wouldn't be very effective against rocks either, would they?  )

I am a big fan of the bow and the sling. In Europe, however, the archers/slingers were usually treated with disdain (it was considered dishonorable). How were they treated in Asia?


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## thardey

tellner said:


> If you're willing to come as far as Portland there are more options. The Obukan Kendo club is excellent. There are plenty of Filipino Martial Arts schools. I don't know if any of the Chinese martial arts kwoons teach anything about the sword besides form, but it's worth a look. Kru Steve Wilson (http://www.chalambok.us) is a top-flight Krabi Krabong teacher and does private lessons.




My wife's family lives in Portland, so we visit there often. What is their policy on spectators?


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## tellner

Obukan allows visitors. Kru Wilson only does private lessons and seminars. All of the FMA schools of which I am aware allow visitors.


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## pgsmith

> Now that's an interesting bit of history - where can I find more information on that?


Not sure exactly where to direct you for more on it. It's simply Japanese history. I'll expand a little bit though. Feudal Japanese society was extremely striated. There were distinct classes and, while it was possible, it was very difficult to move up to the samurai caste. The samurai were on the top of the system (since they basically created and enforced it). Collectively, their job was to be fighting men. They were raised into it from a very young age learning horses, weapons and fighting arts. They were the ones that owned the weapons and horses. Other castes did not ride, and so were quite limited in their mobility. The samurai lived on stipends from their overlord. When a particular lord was defeated, that meant that all of the samurai he was supporting no longer had an employer. Some of them could take up with another overlord, but many of them either did not have the connections nor credentials to do so. These were known as ronin, masterless samurai. Some of them became merchants or worked in the towns. A great many of them simply turned outlaw since those were the skills that they had been taught since childhood. 


> In Europe, however, the archers/slingers were usually treated with disdain (it was considered dishonorable). How were they treated in Asia?


Very little is written about slingers, however the samurai were *all* archers. It was one of the basic skills that was taught from childhood. In feudal times, horsemanship and archery were the big things. Everything else came second to those skills.


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