# Martial "ART"s



## Taiji_Mantis (Apr 14, 2008)

I have been wondering...
Over the years, I have noticed the political debates and the outright hostility in some cases surrounding the history, lineage, origins, and legitimacy in especially the Korean style of Tang Soo Do. In the last coupleof years I have noticed it within the kung fu family as well to a much lesser degree.

I am not saying that it is a TSD thing, though since my focus was on this style for so long, the battles and politics seemed (to me anyway) to be greatly overrepresented in the system.

My questions to you all is this:
At what point do you put aside the history lessons, and the politics and just practice? How much value do you place on history, or lineage?

To me I never got into the history of Tang Soo Do, or its different leaders and organizations. Some masters or Grandmasters told me the history helped them to uncover applications to hyung and other aspects of the art. For me, I practiced as I was taught  because that *was *the art. Learning applications was great. Seeing them for yourself with practice was better IMHO.

Thoughts?


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## terryl965 (Apr 14, 2008)

History is in the eye of the beholder, but training is in the eye of each person, so I would worry less about history and more on training. The only time history really matter is when you try to become something you are not and then it gets made up as they go along.


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## exile (Apr 14, 2008)

Taiji_Mantis said:


> Some masters or Grandmasters told me the history helped them to uncover applications to hyung and other aspects of the art. For me, I practiced as I was taught  because that *was *the art. Learning applications was great. Seeing them for yourself with practice was better IMHO.
> 
> Thoughts?



Well, let me pose a question back to you, TM. What if you were practicing a form which contained a subsequence which just didn't make much combat sense. You did a little research and you discovered that this hyung was derived from an earlier pattern, possibly from a different MA&#8212;that it was actually taken over from that pattern, whole, but that certain modifications had been made, and when you looked at the original form, you realized how much combat sense that subsequence of moves (in its earlier, unmodified form) made. Would you say that learning the history&#8212;which enabled you to establish a connection between something that didn't seem to make much sense and an earlier form that did&#8212;was pointless, or did not directly serve a combat purpose? Because, remember, in the scenario I'm suggesting, no matter how much you practiced the form, the intrinsic movements themselves were problematic in terms of the logic of range, body mechanics and so on, whereas the earlier form revealed several effective, plausible techs to handle a variety of defense situations. Would there not then have been a significant benefit to knowing the history of the form you'd been practicing, in view of this kind of realization?


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## Makalakumu (Apr 14, 2008)

TM - eventualy, at some point, you will be faced with the history of this art.  There are too many gaps and holes and other things that don't make sense unless you consider the history.  

This is not just limited to the history of TSD.  It encompasses the history along the entire syncretic lineage.  

Korean Karate History...

Japanese Karate History...

Okinawan Karate History...

And in some cases Chinese Kung Fu History...

It all has direct bearing on how the art of TSD is practiced.


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## terryl965 (Apr 14, 2008)

upnorthkyosa said:


> TM - eventualy, at some point, you will be faced with the history of this art. There are too many gaps and holes and other things that don't make sense unless you consider the history.
> 
> This is not just limited to the history of TSD. It encompasses the history along the entire syncretic lineage.
> 
> ...


 

Yes upnorth sooner or later it will matter, but for the beginner maybe it is better to train more and worry less, this way when they get a true understanding of the complete Art maybe the history will make sense.


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## Errant108 (Apr 14, 2008)

Or we could just not teach lies, mistruths, fabrications, and myths at all...


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## Taiji_Mantis (Apr 14, 2008)

I agree with all of what you said. I simply marvel at the difference between how the arts were approached by an 80 year-old Chinese Instructor, vs a 50 year old American instructor. One who practices to practice, and not to make waves, while one practices and researches things that some agree with and others don't. 

Anyway, just looking for thoughts on the way things are.


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## tellner (Apr 14, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> Or we could just not teach lies, mistruths, fabrications, and myths at all...



Yah, but at this point you'd need a Grand Inquisitor, two full grown bull historians and a boy to separate the truth from the lies from the myths form the delusion


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## JT_the_Ninja (Apr 15, 2008)

I personally don't care for politics. I just train, always striving to improve. 

History is another fuzzy issue; it's of great importance to know and understand it and never, _ever_, ignore the facts about it, but if you live in it, you're not moving forward.


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## tkd1964 (Apr 15, 2008)

exile said:


> Well, let me pose a question back to you, TM. What if you were practicing a form which contained a subsequence which just didn't make much combat sense. You did a little research and you discovered that this hyung was derived from an earlier pattern, possibly from a different MAthat it was actually taken over from that pattern, whole, but that certain modifications had been made, and when you looked at the original form, you realized how much combat sense that subsequence of moves (in its earlier, unmodified form) made. Would you say that learning the historywhich enabled you to establish a connection between something that didn't seem to make much sense and an earlier form that didwas pointless, or did not directly serve a combat purpose? Because, remember, in the scenario I'm suggesting, no matter how much you practiced the form, the intrinsic movements themselves were problematic in terms of the logic of range, body mechanics and so on, whereas the earlier form revealed several effective, plausible techs to handle a variety of defense situations. Would there not then have been a significant benefit to knowing the history of the form you'd been practicing, in view of this kind of realization?


 
Back in the early 1900's when Okinawan Karate was introduced to Japan, was the inner applications of the Katas taught to the students? And on that note, were they taught to the Korean students? From what I understand, only when the Sensei gained your full trust is when he started to teach you the inner applications. 
Now, with the web, and much more openness in the arts, it is quite important to know the history of your art, your Kwanjang, etc.


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## exile (Apr 15, 2008)

tkd1964 said:


> Back in the early 1900's when Okinawan Karate was introduced to Japan, was the inner applications of the Katas taught to the students? And on that note, were they taught to the Korean students? From what I understand, only when the Sensei gained your full trust is when he started to teach you the inner applications.



What relevance does this observation have to the question of the _intrinsic importance _and value of knowing the history (including technical history) of your art? 



tkd1964 said:


> Now, with the web, and much more openness in the arts, it is quite important to know the history of your art, your Kwanjang, etc.



Again, what does the difference between the ease of access to this information then vs. now have to do with the OP question of the _value_ of knowing the history of the art, insofar as it relates to your practice of the art??


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## tkd1964 (Apr 15, 2008)

Sorry, meant to say "Find your history" instead of "know". 

As an example, General Choi only spent 4-5 years in Japan learning Karate. Although he learned the Katas I don't believe he was able to learn the deeper meanings of the movement. Move to Korea where he changed the patterns due to his Distain for the Japanese. You have the patterns once removed from Okinawa and then again from Japan to what we have today. 
twenty years ago I never heard of "Bunkai" or hidden applications in the Katas. A block was a block and punch was a punch. Looking back into the Shotokan and then further to the MA's of Okinawa I could see what techniques are similar to what I am learning now and what the applications were meant to be. Without knowing Gen. Choi's history of what he learned, a big piece of the puzzle would be missing.


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## exile (Apr 15, 2008)

tkd1964 said:


> Sorry, meant to say "Find your history" instead of "know".
> 
> As an example, General Choi only spent 4-5 years in Japan learning Karate. Although he learned the Katas I don't believe he was able to learn the deeper meanings of the movement. Move to Korea where he changed the patterns due to his Distain for the Japanese. You have the patterns once removed from Okinawa and then again from Japan to what we have today.
> twenty years ago I never heard of "Bunkai" or hidden applications in the Katas. A block was a block and punch was a punch. Looking back into the Shotokan and then further to the MA's of Okinawa I could see what techniques are similar to what I am learning now and what the applications were meant to be. Without knowing Gen. Choi's history of what he learned, a big piece of the puzzle would be missing.



Ah, OK, I see. And agree!


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## Topeng (Apr 17, 2008)

Ah politics. Have you seen the FMA forums as of late? Its like Jerry Springer over there. An entire system and GrandMaster was banned due to mud slinging.
When it comes to history, I think it is your duty as a practitioner to learn about the origins of the art (not necessarily the lineage) but not to always put full faith in them. Things tend to be elaborated over time with the inclusion of mystic beings and blind princesses. IMHO its more to learn about the culture whether it be Chinese, Korean, Filipino, etc.
If it was my family or system under attack, I may do a little research but when it comes down to it...if its an effective and fun art, just keep training. 
Unfortunately the more vocal of your group will probably give everyone in your lineage a bad name...but it will pass.


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## Taiji_Mantis (Apr 17, 2008)

> If it was my family or system under attack, I may do a little research but when it comes down to it...if its an effective and fun art, just keep training.



I guess this is what I was thinking all along. I can dig the argument for having to "go back" further in history to find the applications to some form or another, but ultimately (in my mind) as you study the various applications become yours anyway. For example in mantis, the more I practice beng bu, the more options _I_ can find for applying the movements. The same can be said for any of the pyung ahns or bassai that I have been taught.

Anyway, I am not looking to challenge anyone's method of thinking or sway their opinion. I am simply curious as to what people choose to emphasize. Thanks for sharing.


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## DatFlow (Apr 17, 2008)

Although I do not currently know too much History of Tang Soo Do, hell I don't even know the grand master's name of my association. But i do know that I'm willing to learn, and have been tought a few things here and there. I need to pick up a good book or two and sit down and really read through them. I feel knowing the history of your art as well as the cultral aspects, really does help you with the art, considering its named well... an "Art" and not just a "way of fighting". Martial arts are so much more than something like Boxing, I mean, Boxing has one hell of a background, but theres so much more cultral aspects aswell as history, and I feel its important to know it... 

Practicing what I know is very important to me at this stage... Due to being only in the art of TSD for 2 months, I'm willing to practice EVERYTHING i learn, allot...


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## MBuzzy (Apr 17, 2008)

DatFlow said:


> Although I do not currently know too much History of Tang Soo Do, hell I don't even know the grand master's name of my association. But i do know that I'm willing to learn, and have been tought a few things here and there. I need to pick up a good book or two and sit down and really read through them. I feel knowing the history of your art as well as the cultral aspects, really does help you with the art, considering its named well... an "Art" and not just a "way of fighting". Martial arts are so much more than something like Boxing, I mean, Boxing has one hell of a background, but theres so much more cultral aspects aswell as history, and I feel its important to know it...
> 
> Practicing what I know is very important to me at this stage... Due to being only in the art of TSD for 2 months, I'm willing to practice EVERYTHING i learn, allot...


 
From an earlier post, I believe you're in the World Tang Soo Do Association, whose Kwan Jang Nim is Jae C. Shin.


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## Taiji_Mantis (Apr 18, 2008)

> I'm willing to practice EVERYTHING i learn, allot...



This is actually what inspired me to post in the first place. My shifu showed us something and then we practiced it. He gave us an application and we practiced it. We asked questions and we were told to practice more. The answers we were looking for eventually revealed themselves in the practice.

My Tang Soo Do instructors showed us something and we practiced it. Then We asked questions, and we were given numerous answers and variations, and descriptions and stories, and historical perspectives. It all became very confusing. People would tell me they were right and others were wrong. It was actually quite a turn-off. Did I learn a lot--absolutely. I learned many different perspectives of single applications, or multiple points of view about where they came from.

Which was better. Well, to tell the truth, I learned a lot both ways. But I found the former much more gratifying than the latter. Thats it. Plain. Simple.

I will always remember the broken English "You need practice more."
The history was secondary for that.

Again, not trying to start any controversy, just chatting to see where people are at.


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