# Makiwara training in Kenpo



## suicide (Mar 6, 2009)

does anyone here use it :angel:


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## punisher73 (Mar 6, 2009)

suicide said:


> does anyone here use it :angel:


 
I know that Prof. Chow was a BIG advocate of makiwara training and sandbag training to develop a punch.  I know most schools that are from the Ed Parker lineage do not use it.

Some people do for their own personal workouts, or maybe even a school here or there, but I think for the most part it is not done in American Kenpo.


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## sjansen (Mar 7, 2009)

Use a hard punching bag and you will save your knuckles the abuse that will cost you in you older years. Any bag or human can teach you proper knuckle placement with a lot less wear and tear on your hands. If you want to have to use a half fist in your former years, please use a makiwara. Just practice your techniques as you were taught and you will find much greater enlightenment and much less stress on your joints in the long run. The martial arts is a marathon, not a sprint.


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## LawDog (Mar 7, 2009)

I and many of my seniors use it. I have been using the board for over forty years and there is "no" damage to my hands, either internally and externally. I have three females who strike the board with out using protective hand gear, they love it. One is viewed on the front of my kickboxing page, she is the one on the left.
The key to this type of training is to work up to it gradually using various types of impacting on "all" sides of your hands.
For those who believe that this training is not needed and they would rather take a chance breaking their hand during a fight then I would say that you have never hand a broken hand, never mind striking with it.
All of my seniors are known as heavy hitters and this type of training is one of the main reasons that they can.
Everyone must travel their own way following their beliefs or experiences.


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## seasoned (Mar 7, 2009)

LawDog said:


> The key to this type of training is to work up to it gradually using various types of impacting on "all" sides of your hands.


The Makiwara has much to teach. As LawDog states, slow and easy is the proper way. Kata teaches us how to move while the Makiwara teaches how to hit. It is the only way to properly know that your body structure is in place, for those heavy hits. Boxing is a great sport, but they wear gloves, because without them they fracture their hands. Train the way you defend.


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## still learning (Mar 9, 2009)

Hello,  Makiwara is just a tool use just like a punching bag ,only it can have a harder surface.

Comes in many shapes, sizes, and  materials....like all tools?  ...learn to use them properly.  (over doing anything is always likely to lead to pain).

Everyone should try including some "makiwara" training...like any excercise out there....NO limits to our training and learning....

Aloha,


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## KenpoDave (Mar 9, 2009)

I use it.  Gradual progression is key.


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## Doc (Mar 12, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> I know that Prof. Chow was a BIG advocate of makiwara training and sandbag training to develop a punch.  I know most schools that are from the Ed Parker lineage do not use it.
> 
> Some people do for their own personal workouts, or maybe even a school here or there, but I think for the most part it is not done in American Kenpo.



That is correct. Mr. Parker hated it, and thought it was stupid for a modern martial arts practitioner. Perhaps in feudal Japan where hand-to-hand warfare was a way of life, it might have made some sense, but not in our modern society where someone will probably never derive any benefit from such training other than "ugly" hands and arthritic inflammation and pain over time. Especially when you consider arthritis is apparent in people who have never punched or conditioned their hands for anything, it would seem to be not the smartest of options to hasten or exacerbate the onset of the condition.

It comes from a perspective that was devoid of knowledge of "what and how" to strike, and emphasized "power" in all aspects of execution, over the precision understandings of the Chinese. It is still a neanderthal methodology that even modern professional pugilist who fight for sport and/or pay don't use. So why would an ordinary person not likely to ever have a physical confrontation choose to mangle themselves, even if it is not cosmetically visible, to use it? Some lapse into the malaise of tradition over common sense, or "art" over pragmatism of modern self-defense. 

Much like the use of the cultural language other than your native tongue when training in another cultural "art form," it is a cultural method, not a practical one. Although the Ancient Chinese Method utilized hand conditioning, it also included the healing aspects of herbal medicines and ointments like dit da jow. Today there is no need other than tradition, ego, or testosterone fueled displays of the manly knuckles of toughness.

Punching with a clenched fist is not an efficient or prominent way to strike when knowledge is infused into pragmatic training methods. Much like punching the heavy bag, it's close to a waste of time. Ed Parker didn't do that either, but - each to his own folly. Those who wish to do it will always find a reason to, whether it makes sense or not.


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## Danjo (Mar 12, 2009)

Those of us that _DO_ use punches as part of our skill-set, use bags etc. to practice with. 

Learning to transmit power into and through a target with effectiveness and without injuring your wrist is very important. 

Bruce Lee, Ginchin Funakoshi, Choki Motobu, Prof. Chow, Sijo Emperado, Mas Oyama, Tak Kubota, Kung Fu Master Qingfu Pan, who won the Chinese national Kung-Fu championships multiple times, and served as a coach at the Shenyan Physical Education Institute. [_In the mid-1960s, Pan was recruited by the Chinese government to capture Triad leaders, eventually capturing 23, and earning the name "Gangbuster." He has also worked as an instructor for the Beijing Police and the Chinese Special Forces,]_ all use Makiwara, Wooden Dummies, sledge hammers (In the case of Tak Kubota), bags, (Pan Quingfu uses a steel plate) for hand conditioning. None of them seem to have had adverse effects in their hands from that type of training.


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## Rabu (Mar 12, 2009)

I have met Master Pan. His hands are deformed.  He can still grip a weapon.

I advocate iron body training methods myself, so I guess I am simply accepting that some of the people who are noted masters definitely suffered either visually disturbing changes to their anatomy or crippling disfigurement.


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## Doc (Mar 12, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Those of us that _DO_ use punches as part of our skill-set, use bags etc. to practice with.
> 
> Learning to transmit power into and through a target with effectiveness and without injuring your wrist is very important.
> 
> Bruce Lee, Ginchin Funakoshi, Choki Motobu, Prof. Chow, Sijo Emperado, Mas Oyama, Tak Kubota, Kung Fu Master Qingfu Pan, who won the Chinese national Kung-Fu championships multiple times, and served as a coach at the Shenyan Physical Education Institute. [_In the mid-1960s, Pan was recruited by the Chinese government to capture Triad leaders, eventually capturing 23, and earning the name "Gangbuster." He has also worked as an instructor for the Beijing Police and the Chinese Special Forces,]_ all use Makiwara, Wooden Dummies, sledge hammers (In the case of Tak Kubota), bags, (Pan Quingfu uses a steel plate) for hand conditioning. None of them seem to have had adverse effects in their hands from that type of training.



"Makiwara training refers to a specific methodology, not used by the Chinese. Wooden dummy training is different sir. However, the injuries to the hands do show up, but most won't tell you. Especially Takayuki and his sledge hammer demo.


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## suicide (Mar 12, 2009)

im getting ready to build one , this discusion has gave me something to think about though , i guess in moderate use one can avoid many injuries that are not necesary , especially me that i need my hands i work in construction with out my hands my family dont eat :angel:


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## LawDog (Mar 14, 2009)

Today most martial artists know the "how's and why's" for proper impacting. They also know that during a "real" fight your opponent is seldom holding a "static" position, instead he will move around alot. Each time that he does move the proper doorways for impacting will move with him so the chance of missing the desired doorway is most likely. If you are using a hand strike that is intended for a soft area and the doorway for the soft area moves then you could hit a much harder area.
Because a very respected person, including by myself, doesn't believe in hand conditioning it doesn't make it right, only his opinon. This same person said to my face that the reason that he personally stopped hand conditioning was because it was unlikely that he would be getting into any street fights.
Those who train for the reality of things do so,
others play and make excuses as to why they do so.
:ubercool:


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## LawDog (Mar 14, 2009)

P.S.
My hands are not deformed just hand my physical, the real Doc. stated to me that there were fine, no injuries and there were no medical problems with them. I do have alot of facial and rib injuries from repeated hits but that is what really happens during real fights.


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## Doc (Mar 14, 2009)

LawDog said:


> P.S.
> My hands are not deformed just hand my physical, the real Doc. stated to me that there were fine, no injuries and there were no medical problems with them. I do have alot of facial and rib injuries from repeated hits but that is what really happens during real fights.



By your own assessment, sounds like you're not very good at it.


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## suicide (Mar 15, 2009)

hey doc have you ever used it ? ( makiwara )


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## Doc (Mar 15, 2009)

suicide said:


> hey doc have you ever used it ? ( makiwara )



No sir. Modern ninja don't need it, and punching represents only a small part of the hand weapon arsenal. Its use is usually a cultural and/or traditional one. Mr. Parker didn't believe in either. He said, "Conditioning of the hands takes place naturally in a proper training environment."


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## TenTigers (Aug 26, 2009)

Traditional Chinese Martial Arts most certainly did use the makiwara, or da-jong-striking post. Specifically the Southern Systems, such as Siu-Lum Hung Kuen. It is not to condition the hands, but to strengthen the structure of the hand, develop correct structural alignment, and increase the bone density through Wolf's Law-gradual and continuous stress placed upon the bone.
It is also used to develop confidense in your striking, which means you will not hesitate, or put the brakes on when you strike.
Again, it is used with gradual increase in intensity, and not simply bashing away to deform your hand until it looks like a foot! The idea is not to callous you knuckles, although through prolonged use, callouses are developed. You can use a pumice stone to remove these and along with correct massage and dit da jow, your hands can remain baby soft on the outside, and rock hard on the inside-steel wrapped in cotton.
The striking post should be mounted on a tapered wooden base so it has a certain amount of give. Those Wall mounted canvas covered foam striking boards they sell in the MA stores,will cause damage, as the force is directly absorbed into the joints of the wrist. (these really should be mounted on a tapered board, not a wall) The Korean wall mounted version has slits sawed into the base so it has give. Sometimes referred to as "clapper makiwara."


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## Danjo (Aug 27, 2009)

TenTigers said:


> Traditional Chinese Martial Arts most certainly did use the makiwara, or da-jong-striking post. Specifically the Southern Systems, such as Siu-Lum Hung Kuen. It is not to condition the hands, but to strengthen the structure of the hand, develop correct structural alignment, and increase the bone density through Wolf's Law-gradual and continuous stress placed upon the bone.
> It is also used to develop confidense in your striking, which means you will not hesitate, or put the brakes on when you strike.
> Again, it is used with gradual increase in intensity, and not simply bashing away to deform your hand until it looks like a foot! The idea is not to callous you knuckles, although through prolonged use, callouses are developed. You can use a pumice stone to remove these and along with correct massage and dit da jow, your hands can remain baby soft on the outside, and rock hard on the inside-steel wrapped in cotton.
> The striking post should be mounted on a tapered wooden base so it has a certain amount of give. Those Wall mounted canvas covered foam striking boards they sell in the MA stores,will cause damage, as the force is directly absorbed into the joints of the wrist. (these really should be mounted on a tapered board, not a wall) The Korean wall mounted version has slits sawed into the base so it has give. Sometimes referred to as "clapper makiwara."


 
Good info. There are those Chinese guys, however, that use more extreme hand conditioning techniques including hitting a steel plate a thousand times per day. Hitting a heavy bag can give you the effects you're talking about for the most part too.


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## TenTigers (Aug 27, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Good info. There are those Chinese guys, however, that use more extreme hand conditioning techniques including hitting a steel plate a thousand times per day. Hitting a heavy bag can give you the effects you're talking about for the most part too.


 
I have seen Pan Qing-Fu's hands. Pretty nasty. Funny thing is, he hits an iron plate, but it's a hand-held plate. Anyone can do this, and creating ugly scary looking knuckles doesn't take long. Depends on how much you abuse them.
Traditionally, In Gung-Fu, we use a softer, long term  gradual approach, preferring to invest time, rather than go for a quick fix. The gradual approach is far more healthy, and not destructive to the body. It is more concerned with power generation and developing ging.


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## DaleDugas (Sep 2, 2009)

I have baby soft hands but when I hit they are anything but soft.

Yin within the yang.

Iron Palm training does not cause callusing or damage to the hands as you are not hitting the joints but the long bones of the hand.

Dit Da Jow should be used by all to help mitigate any injuries that occur during training sessions.

makiwara training has to be done very slowly and with a post that gives.  Some people attach the makiwara to a tire.  lets the impact be softened on the tire and not your joints.


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## mwd0818 (Sep 2, 2009)

DaleDugas said:


> makiwara training has to be done very slowly and with a post that gives.  Some people attach the makiwara to a tire...



Oh - good idea - thanks!  I've been trying to figure out how I want to set up my makiwara in the basement . . .


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