# Why Tai Chi ?



## 7starmantis (Oct 27, 2003)

I'm interested in how many people here, who study tai chi, do so for the martial or fighting aspect of it, and how many simply for its health benefits. Obviously, many do it for both, but I'm interested in the main reason you practice this system.

7sm


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## stickarts (Oct 27, 2003)

I dabbled in it for awhile mainly to make a comparison to my own art(s) It was quite interesting noting the similarities and differences. a worthwhile journey! It helped me to understand some of the elements of my own arts better.


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## arnisador (Oct 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by stickarts _
> *I dabbled in it for awhile mainly to make a comparison to my own art(s) It was quite interesting noting the similarities and differences. a worthwhile journey! It helped me to understand some of the elements of my own arts better. *



Ditto! It was interesting and enlightening.


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## 7starmantis (Oct 27, 2003)

That brings up a good question as well....different thread.

7sm


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Oct 28, 2003)

While I study both the martial and non-martial aspects of it, I appreciate Taijiquan mostly for its health aspects.  Why?  For most people, actual fights are rare.  Health, on the other hand, is an everyday concern.


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## 7starmantis (Oct 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Randy Strausbaugh _
> *While I study both the martial and non-martial aspects of it, I appreciate Taijiquan mostly for its health aspects.  Why?  For most people, actual fights are rare.  Health, on the other hand, is an everyday concern. *



Very well said! This is a major concept in Taiji that alot of people ignore or do not understand. The overall health.

7sm


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## Seigi (Nov 3, 2003)

I originaly began studying for the health aspect, but have found through my instructors teachings, that i now enjoy the martial side also.


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## 7starmantis (Nov 7, 2003)

So you guys that understand the Martial aspect side of taiji, do you guys practice in push hands much?

7sm


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## arnisador (Nov 7, 2003)

My instructor refused to teach us push hands, though we often asked. I don't know why.


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## pete (Nov 7, 2003)

we learn pushing hands right from the start...


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## 7starmantis (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *My instructor refused to teach us push hands, though we often asked. I don't know why. *



Some of the more traditional taiji instructors feel push hands directly opose the principles of taiji. They feel that the competative nature destroys true taiji. 

In my opinion, push hands is where its at. Thats where you learn to applications and gain the martial skill that is so abundant in taiji.

7sm


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## arnisador (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Some of the more traditional taiji instructors feel push hands directly opose the principles of taiji. They feel that the competative nature destroys true taiji.  *



This is exactly the impression I got, but the language barrier posed a problem for verifying it--we could only really communicate when the instructor's bilingual daughter came to class.


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Some of the more traditional taiji instructors feel push hands directly opose the principles of taiji. They feel that the competative nature destroys true taiji.
> 
> In my opinion, push hands is where its at. Thats where you learn to applications and gain the martial skill that is so abundant in taiji.
> ...


That's the problem with most push-hands instruction these days, it's being taught as a competition rather than as a developmental drill.  It should be seen in much the same way that a boxer views speed-bag training- a drill to develop attributes, but not an end in itself.

My instructor started me on push-hands about 1 to 1 1/2 years into training.  He wanted to make sure I was fairly grounded in the form before starting to push.  We worked on applications for the movements from day one, though.


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## 7starmantis (Nov 9, 2003)

It seems no one has the patience to study taiji long enough to be really truly good in skill.

Kinda sad to me.

7sm


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## arnisador (Nov 9, 2003)

My instructor left town. There are no other instructors here in town. She left her senior student in charge, but her senior student was quite junior and didn't even know the entire long form or any of the sword forms (she had been through them, but didn't have them memorized).

I wrote about it here. I had been enjoying it! The sword forms were cool.


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## 7starmantis (Nov 10, 2003)

That sucks.

The sword forms are really awesome!

7sm


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## Eldritch Knight (Jan 19, 2004)

The first thing we did was push hands - I love it. I study Taiqi for the martial aspects - its rare to find an MA that bases its principles on yielding.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Eldritch Knight _
> *The first thing we did was push hands - I love it. I study Taiqi for the martial aspects - its rare to find an MA that bases its principles on yielding. *



Yielding is a big principle in Taji as well as kung fu, its a hard principle to master. In fact, maybe one of the hardest. It goes hand in hand with feeling as well.

7sm


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## Tae Kwon Doughboy (Jan 25, 2004)

Purely for health reasons. Years of back problems compounded by being a workaholic for too long for an unreasonable boss led to high blood pressure, high cholesterol and a bad attitude. 

I had always been interested in martial arts but it was taboo in my family. My new boss knew of my interest and brought me a Tai Chi video and the rest is history. I feel better in my 40s than I did in my teens and 20s. So much in fact that I felt fit enough to start TaeKwonDo.

I know I am only scratching the surface of what Tai Chi has to offer by using a video. I would prefer to learn from a master but I wasn't able to find one close enough.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 26, 2004)

Thats great that you are receiving the benefits of taiji.
It is too bad however that you are unable to find a teacher, it is much more awesome if able to be taught from a good instructor.

7sm


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## Ninway J (Jan 28, 2004)

I'm training mostly for the martial applications, but I of course want to train for all that taiji has to offer.  As of now, I've been practicing taiji (Yang style long form) for three weeks.  I already notice a difference in the way I stand and move when I do non-taiji stuff.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 29, 2004)

I believe that practicing taiji will encompas all the benefits, the martial aspect and the health benefits.

7sm


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## Dronak (Jan 31, 2004)

My original reason for looking into learning tai chi was the healt/relaxation aspect, it seemed like it could be a good way to help me relieve some stress.  But I did also learn that it was a martial art and originally meant for fighting, so I wanted to learn that aspect of it as well.  As I had read, the health benefits tend to come from practicing it as a martial art.  Remove the fighting applications from it and you're removing a vital part of the style.  So I wanted to learn it for the health part, but I wanted to learn it properly and get some discussion of the MA fighting applications of postures and such.  I'm glad the teacher of our Chinese MA club did cover some of the fighting applications when teaching tai chi.  We never really got around to pushing hands or anything, but it seemed like our teacher really knew his stuff and could have done plenty of tai chi combat stuff if he wanted to.  But the focus of the class was on Shaolin kung fu, so we didn't take the tai chi stuff very far.


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## Feisty Mouse (Jun 16, 2004)

Of course both, but I think that Tai Chi practice is really assisting my MA training in the other arts I train in, especially boxing (JKD).  It is excellent for making me much more aware of what I'm doing versus what I'm trying to do!


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## 7starmantis (Jun 16, 2004)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> Of course both, but I think that Tai Chi practice is really assisting my MA training in the other arts I train in, especially boxing (JKD).  It is excellent for making me much more aware of what I'm doing versus what I'm trying to do!


 How so? It is making you more aware of what your trying to do versus what your doing? Thats interesting, care to eleborate?

7sm


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 16, 2004)

Just started studying the Yang style about 3 weeks ago. I had dabbled in tai chi befor but never really studied. I find the movements help me relax after doing my own art (hard and powerul movements). 
 Don't know the whole form or even half of it yet but I am enjoying the change.
 I did do push hands already but have been doing that for a while with out instruction and the instructor saw me and my son pacticing so he started showing us the correct way to do it.


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## East Winds (Jun 20, 2004)

I agree with most of what has been said. I don't think you can really train Taiji without training push hands as well. Push hands teaches so many of the basic principles of the art, that without it, your form may look nice, but it will be empty. (Tai Cheese??) Push hands of course teaches the use of the main energies that are the foundation of the taijiquan applications.  I don't like competition push hands and as one poster rightly said, it should be used as a training exercise. Competitive push hands can so easily end up in "pushing" and "shoving", much in the way I think modern Judo has gone. Both have lost the element of yeilding. 

Good discussion by the way

Regards

Alistair Sutherland


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## Tony (Jun 22, 2004)

I did a taster course on Tai Chi at a local college and I really enjoyed it! It made me feel so calm and I would love to study it but purely for stress relief and relaxation. I think its very beneficial for older people as well to keep them supple, agile  and healthy. I already study Kung fu and I know one would benefit the other quite well.


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## Feisty Mouse (Jun 22, 2004)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Feisty Mouse*
> _Of course both, but I think that Tai Chi practice is really assisting my MA training in the other arts I train in, especially boxing (JKD). It is excellent for making me much more aware of what I'm doing versus what I'm trying to do!_
> 
> ...


I had to think about this for a minute.  Aside from understanding the root, and lines of force, Tai Chi practice (what little I have done) is very helpful to me because, in part, of the pace.  While I can throw a wierd strike in sparring, things are happening so quickly that I can't reconstruct for myself what the "correct" vs. "incorrect" _felt_ like in my limbs.  

Doing push hands or tai chi form with an instructor allows me to repeat movements and feel the sometimes subtle differences between me trying to force a posture or punch, and the action unfolding from my structure.

(Does that make much sense?)


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## pete (Jun 29, 2004)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> (Does that make much sense?)



absolutely!  its all about understanding your center, the center of your opponent, and the "3rd center", the center you share when you are engaged in combat.  this training builds the calm awareness necessary to listen, identify and then respond with those subtle adjustments that will either correct your position, or take advantage of a defect in your opponent.  

this is true in pushing hands and "hard" sparring as well...

pete


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## Tony (Jul 23, 2004)

Well I have found a local class near me on a saturday morning! I've been looking for a Tai Chi class for ages but all have been too far away but luckily through the local paper I have found this one. For those of you who study Tai Chi what can i expect from a first class? I'm mainly wanting to become more relaxed and calmer. But I don't think it would hinder my Kung fu too much either, as it would probably help my forms and postures which I really need.


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## Empty Fist (Jul 31, 2004)

Congratulations on finding a class. Classes vary depending on the instructor. Hopefully your teacher is not one of those "just look at me and do what I do" instructors. A good teacher will emphasize proper body mechanics and martial applications of each posture. Some classes may include some push hands instruction as well. Typically a teacher will focus on teaching one posture each class. Some postures may take even two classes to teach! Also keep in mind that the body mechanics of external martial arts are different from internal martial arts. Tai Chi Chuan will eventually help you to relax over time but patience is the key.


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## pakua (Aug 2, 2004)

Well, I hadn't realised that Tai Chi _was_ a martial art till I started it a month ago, and started doing some reading. So at the moment I'm in it for fitness, stress, those sorts of things, but who knows in the future?

My Sifu also teaches kobu (my kids both train with him), and prefers his Tai Chi instructors to, as well. This, he says, gives them an understanding of the martial aspects of Tai Chi.

Sifu always points out some of the martial aspects- eg, this hand is here for protection, or could strike from here etc. He's also always emphasising the power of balance and rooting, as if responding to an assailant.

Galante's book (which Sifu recommends) shows the martial arts side of just about every movement.

(But at the moment I'm concentrating on trying not to trip over my own feet ......!)


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## Taiji fan (Sep 14, 2004)

> It seems no one has the patience to study taiji long enough to be really truly good in skill.


   I've been training for 11 years now.....



> Hopefully your teacher is not one of those "just look at me and do what I do" instructors


  :waah: I started with one of those types and did 4 years with them.......seems like there are far to many of them about. :mrtoilet:


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## Angelusmortis (Sep 18, 2004)

I think that's a problem that I've heard many people mention, the availability of a good instructor. My old dear used to do tai chi, and her instructor left the area too. Then trying to find a new one proved next to impossible...The Wing Chun instructor I've located also teaches Tse Gong, would I be right in assuming that this is also something to do with the manipulation of chi??? Must confess my ignorance ref this....


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## celtic bhoy (Sep 25, 2004)

No disrespect intended, but does Tai Chi have any fighting qualities?

There is a Yang Style class opened close to me and thought about having a look.

What's the difference between Wudang and Yang Style?


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## vampyre_rat (Sep 28, 2004)

celtic bhoy said:
			
		

> No disrespect intended, but does Tai Chi have any fighting qualities?


Yes it does. Unfortunately it takes a while to get to grips with the taiji approach. You are trying to not use hard physical force, but something else. A good taiji push can send someone reeling for quite a distance, if you imagine that kind of power focused into a punch you can get an idea of what it can do.



> There is a Yang Style class opened close to me and thought about having a look.
> 
> What's the difference between Wudang and Yang Style?


In the main it will be in the 'form'. The kata of the style. They may also focus on different aspects, but that is more down to the teacher than the style.

If you want to learn taiji as a martial art it will take time and perserverance. It could take years. You are trying to get your body to act in a whole new way. Any other MA training you have done will not necessarily help, but it might. There are virtually no short cuts.

My advice would be to go along to the class and see if you like it. You might not! It has been known. You might not see feats of martial prowess at your first class either. i.e. applications etc.


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## Dronak (Dec 5, 2004)

vampyre_rat said:
			
		

> Yes it does. Unfortunately it takes a while to get to grips with the taiji approach. You are trying to not use hard physical force, but something else. A good taiji push can send someone reeling for quite a distance, if you imagine that kind of power focused into a punch you can get an idea of what it can do.



I'd generally agree with that.  I've got a variety of books on tai chi and many of them explore the fighting aspects of it to some extent.  They're there, so I think you just need to find a good teacher who knows them in order to learn them.  Our teacher didn't do a whole lot of that with us, but sometimes he would mention some combat aspects of moves in order to help us learn them and have a better idea of why a certain move or motion is being performed the way it is.  And of course in the end, you can't do everything in slow motion like that, you have to speed it up to combat speed eventually.

I think vampyre_rat is right that tai chi doesn't use hard physical force, but I'm not going to try to go into what it uses instead.  I know way too little to say much about it.  But I'll make a different note.  From what I've seen, one of the major aspects to tai chi is using a small amount of force to deflect a large amount of force.  By doing something like following the incoming punch and turning your body, you can deflect it and lead it away from hitting you without applying much force of your own.  A lot of this stuff is probably beyond me, even if I've read about it, but I hope this helps and that someone will correct me if I'm made some error.


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## Michlt (Jan 2, 2005)

In my school, push hands is not taught until one has been studying at least 2 years or more. The 12, 24, 48 empty hands forms are taught first then sword forms to get the feel of the extension of the movement beyond the hands. 

From the beginning, my instructor has  (briefly) demonstrated the martial application of the movements to clarify why the weight is on a particular foot and the arms and hands do particular things. It has been an enormous help to me for comprehending the postures.

 :supcool:


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## Trainwreck (Jan 31, 2005)

I dunno if this is legitimate or not (it's an eBook written by Eric Montaigue and foreworded by Dan Inosanto), but I have a .pdf file of _T'ai Chi as a Fighting Art_. You can get it at the following link, and do note that your computer needs to be able to handle .pdf files in order to view it.

http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gtg039i/Taichi.pdf

Note to mods: The book expressly states that it may be freely distributed so long as it remains unaltered and I do not charge anything for it.


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## Skankatron Ltd (Feb 12, 2005)

Although I originally got interested in Tai Chi as a spiritual thing (since i actualy didn't even KNOW about the martial applications), I now evenly distribute my interest. Well......I might be slightly more martially inclined. But! I am a firm beleiver in the yin yang aspect to martial arts. I beleive that martial application must be counterbalanced by health application. I'm thinking of getting a book on pressure points, mostly for healing, but also for defense.


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## Mr_Scissors (Feb 17, 2005)

I'm studying the Wu Hao/Yuxian form. Mostly for the martial applications, which are quite brutal I might add. %-} 

However, I find that it's almost impossible for me to separate the energy & health aspects from the martial aspect because if you're doing the fighting parts properly it means you're also using your energy properly, which will, in turn, create tremendous health benefits. 

I'm primarily into JKD and Jiu-Jitsu and I must say that form day 1 I have noticed an improvement in my other arts, and I attribute that to the Taiji practice. 

My JKD group had already incorporated many of the push-hands movements into our regular chi-sao practice, so as soon as I began on the push-hands I realized that I was already familiar with many of the techniques. 

The similarities (as well as differences) between Taiji and Wing Chun have helped me improve in both arts.


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## 7starmantis (Feb 17, 2005)

Very true, it seems taiji tends to help many other arts and fighting.

7sm


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## Shadowdh (Feb 28, 2005)

I study taiji as a martial art that gives me balance physically, mentally and spiritually/emotionally... I was very lucky to find bona fide teachers who teach it as intended and not as just an arm waving exercise...


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## agatanai atsilahu (Mar 7, 2005)

Tai Chi Chuan is an invaluable asset as a supplement to any fighting style as well as a viable stand alone system. Its push hands concepts of yeilding, adherence, softness, spontaneity, and rejection of brute force, are excellent methods for developing a greater awareness. It really aids in the understanding of other systems as well. For example 7 star mantis has very similar concepts with adherence and yeilding to gain attack advantage. The underlying goal is to be able to feel the attack before it occurs. The reasoning behind this is that if you can strike as your opponent is "thinking " attack, just at that moment before he initiates, it will quite difficult for your opponent to defend. This is due to the fact that his/her mind and/spirit(intent or will) is so presently focused on attack, the thought transferral to defense will be too late to stop your attack, at least in theory, and Ive seen it in practice. most of these styles are lost in the west due to the impatience of students who want all the skills right now. The stance training, and relentless basics, and breathing exercises of this system are either discounted as false or mystical, or given up on by students because of the length of time it takes to grasp them. Still for those who earnestly seek martial studies this type of training is quite useful if not necessary for a survival minded fighter.


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## kenpochad (Jun 30, 2005)

i started tai chi just as a worm up before my kenpo class ,
and becouse of it my kenpo has come alot farther i cant 
really put my finger on why ?
what do you think ?


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## pete (Jun 30, 2005)

kenpochad,

could be you've simply rounded some corners making your kenpo more fluid, or begun to develop a mind-body connection becoming more aware of the source and direction of the energy behind your movements.

or, maybe you've improved your balance by recognizing the counter-resistance and complimentary opposites (yin/yang).

or maybe you've just slowed down your kenpo to better understand what your intent and eliminate the fast sloppy stuff... or actually regulate your breath to improve endurance.

basic tai chi will help with all of these, and eventually more tai chi practice will help you to improve your sensitivity for contact manipulation and grappling. 

keep with it~ 

pete


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## eyebeams (Jun 30, 2005)

I practice Yang Style as a martial art. This involves progressive push hands practice and developing form by learning the applications of each movement.

 Over time I've come to the opinion that Taiji actually assumes a pretty aggressive, straight-line strategy. My school emphasizes a firm pun arm and stepping to progressively enter the opponent's space. Taiji shuai also resembles the kind of techniques you find in wrestling and judo. For instance, Cloud Hands works well as a semi-sprawl over/under counter to a takedown.

 What seems to be missing in many people's application is aggressive movement. Many other softer arts prefer to evade, then enter, but Taiji tries to minimize this as much as possible, leading to what you might call "sophisticated crashing" as a strategy. Otherwise, it's important to learn to fill nonresistant areas with force *as well as* going with the opponent's force. Artful redirection is one thing, but when it comes up, you have to pound an opening hard.


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## CrushingFist (Aug 21, 2005)

I want to and when I start taichichuan it would be for both aspects or all taichichuan can provide me not just 1 . but its hard to find a good teacher


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## pete (Aug 22, 2005)

rob, check your private messages...pete.


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## mrhnau (Aug 22, 2005)

I'm personally suprised at some of the results. I was wondering about the possible bias on this board, since its called MARTIALtalk. As a whole, with the groups you train with, do you see ~75% of participants interested in the martial aspects of Tai Chi? Do you think age has a large factor in determining the interest in Tai Chi? For instance, do the younger tend to focus on the martial aspect? Or would it be the opposite? Would older people be more interested in the martial aspect, since they might not be capable in participating in a more physically aggresive martial art (physical problems, ect) ? What do you think?


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## pete (Aug 22, 2005)

mrhnau, from your profile i see that you are an aikido practioner.  would you question the results if the poll was taken in your art and had similar results?

pete


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## Marvin (Aug 28, 2005)

I've never trained in Tai chi, I've always thought it was cool. What I was wondering is how do th slow movements translate into self defense? 
Marvin


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## Dronak (Sep 6, 2005)

Obviously you can't fight in the same slow way you practice.  As I understand it, the slow motion is primarily a learning tool which makes it easier for the teacher to see and correct any mistakes the student is making.  You have to speed them up for real fighting applications.  I bought a video that does have some demonstrations of fighting applications of some moves.  I can't point you to any application video clips on the web off hand, but you may be able to search some out or get pointers from others if you're interested in seeing some.  I also have books describing various applications of moves, so the moves to translate to defense, but I think you need to be taught (properly) how to make this sort of translation.


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## mantis (Oct 5, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I'm interested in how many people here, who study tai chi, do so for the martial or fighting aspect of it, and how many simply for its health benefits. Obviously, many do it for both, but I'm interested in the main reason you practice this system.
> 
> 7sm


 to balance the yin and the yang in me


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## Jelik (Oct 5, 2005)

I must say, I considered Tai Chi a bit more on the "health" side that the "fight" side... then I had a full contact match with one.

Ow.


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## TheBattousai (Jan 12, 2006)

I do Tsung Shi Tai Chi Chuan as an aid to my main martial art of kempo, but I also study the health aspect of it. I find that with my Tai Chi, I feel that I'm adding to the fluidity of my training and feel more full of energy. But it cannot be denied the health aspects are tremendous, but I would personaly like more martial art focus on it just so people can see the added potential.


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