# Shotokan Effectiveness & Realism.



## celtic bhoy (Nov 26, 2005)

*I don't want to start any civil wars I just want an educated answer.*

*I have recently moved to a different area and the only style that really appears to be available is Shotokan. I don't have much knowledge of karate.*

*Does this style use really effective self defence techniques or (as some know-all suggested to me) is it an outdated style that is best used for well-being, similar to the way Tai Chi is used.*

*Any constructive advice would be appreciated.*


----------



## Navarre (Nov 26, 2005)

I do not study Shotokan but it is similar in many ways to my original system, Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan. I think you will find it somewhat similar to your Tae Kwon Do training but with some differences.

It utilizes combinations and hand work more than TKD but is not quite as heavy on kicks. It does however have a lot of kicks in it so you won't feel out of place.

All true martial arts are good. All of them. However, not all schools and/or instructors are good.

As with any new school, I advise checking it out first, watching class, taking a few lessons, and get a feel for the instructor. If it is all that is available to you then you don't have too many options. Depending on your rank and years of experience in your other styles, you can easily sort out what works from what doesn't.

I hope you find something that works well for you. Good luck, Celtic.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Nov 26, 2005)

I have been around a lot of Shotokan practicioners and the majority of them where darn good.  It is a strong style that has low  strong stances.
Check out some the the local schools in your area and watch and talk to the folks there. I think you might like the style if yo give it a chance


----------



## splazzatch (Nov 26, 2005)

I currently study Shotokan and have previously studied Goshin Jitsu. 

I really enjoy Shotokan it is a harder style and requires more physical strength than most styles. 

However like everyone else it all depends on the school and instructor if they are bad then you won't like it. 


If you wonder about any of the specifics then give me a message...


----------



## arnisador (Nov 26, 2005)

Shotokan develops real power in its technques. It's a useful art. Check out the school and see what you think.


----------



## JAMJTX (Nov 27, 2005)

Keep in mind that Shotokan grew out of the karate that was taught to Okinawan school children and was refined in the universities as a sport.
You will learn some self defense, but the primary focus the style is personal development and sports.

It will be extremely similar to the TKD that you know, because TKD is essentially "Korean Shotokan".  General Choi and just about all of the founders of all the kwans studied Shotokan.  General Choi originally taught Shotokan kata before he developed the TKD kata that were based on them, even sticking to the H patterns.

As far as requiring great physical strength, this is wrong not only of Shotokan but all of the Japanese/Okinawan arts.  Shotokan, just as the others, will teach you proper body mecahnics to to increase your power without relying on strength.

As a martial art, Shotokan as at least as effective as TKD for self defense and also just as sport oriented.


----------



## Adept (Nov 27, 2005)

I looked into Shotokan, but didn't find the school in my area to be to my liking.

There was very little sparring, and next to no self defence drills at any time. There was lots (and lots) of basics and stance work, and there was a lot of kata. The instructor often repeated the phrase 'If you have good kata, you are a good martial artist' which I flat out disagree with.

Also, coming as a black belt from another style (and only revealing as much when questioned on my background by the instructor) there seemed to be a little bit of ego and machismo involved. Whenever watching my technique, the instructor would say something along the lines of 'Oh no, we do it the 'real' way here' or 'None of that fake stuff goes on in here'.

The other assistant instructors were great, but the head instructor really soured the entire experience for me.

I won't say that this is representative of the entire Shotokan community, but in my experience it did not contain any 'live' self defence training, nor any credible sparring, nor was the attitude of the instructor inviting or accepting.

Just my experiences.


----------



## terryl965 (Nov 27, 2005)

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> Keep in mind that Shotokan grew out of the karate that was taught to Okinawan school children and was refined in the universities as a sport.
> You will learn some self defense, but the primary focus the style is personal development and sports.
> 
> It will be extremely similar to the TKD that you know, because TKD is essentially "Korean Shotokan". General Choi and just about all of the founders of all the kwans studied Shotokan. General Choi originally taught Shotokan kata before he developed the TKD kata that were based on them, even sticking to the H patterns.
> ...


 
I would have to disagree with your statement, if you are talking to a sport orinatated school no matter what style you'll get the sport but shotokan has high roots into self defense as does TKD if you are at the right school and instructors. Please do not place everybody into one group. Maybe you have been around sport school for your statement dictates that. I would have to agree with tshadowchaser on this on.
Terry


----------



## JPH (Nov 28, 2005)

Hi Celtic,

If you are a beginning student, you will definitely benefit from the experience. If you have been training for a considerable amount of time you may find many differences depending on what style you've been practicing, and how varied the instructor is in his teaching of techniques and drills.

If it is in fact the only dojo around, give it a shot. You might like it.


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Nov 28, 2005)

celtic bhoy said:
			
		

> *I don't want to start any civil wars I just want an educated answer.*
> 
> *I have recently moved to a different area and the only style that really appears to be available is Shotokan. I don't have much knowledge of karate.*
> 
> ...


 
That's depends on your needs and the teacher's teaching style. Some Shotokan Dojos are so tournament-oriented that they teach very little self-defense techniques. Just punch, kick, sparring and forms. I must add that Shotokan people has very very very huge successes in WKF-style tournament because their forms called Unsu is very very beautiful. And Shotokan fighters generally fare quite well in the sparring matches as well. So if you are into tournament Karate  you can't go wrong with Shotokan.

But if you just want to learn self-defense techniques, I suggest you learn modern Jujutsu or Krav Maga instead, because they teach much more self-defense techniques standing and on the ground.


----------



## JAMJTX (Nov 28, 2005)

"Maybe you have been around sport school for your statement dictates that. I would have to agree with tshadowchaser on this on."

I also agree with tshadowchaser.  Shotokan is a strong style and there are people who are good at it.  But you also have to look at the historicl facts.  Shotokan was developed primarily as a sport, for physical fitness and personal development. 

But also, just as with any other style, you need to check out the school.  Just because someone calls it Shotokan does not mean they are teaching true Shotokan.  Find out thier affiliation, then check back here for more advice if needed.

If you decide they are offering what you want, take the class.


----------



## madfrank (Nov 28, 2005)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> I would have to disagree with your statement, if you are talking to a sport orinatated school no matter what style you'll get the sport but shotokan has high roots into self defense as does TKD if you are at the right school and instructors. Please do not place everybody into one group. Maybe you have been around sport school for your statement dictates that. I would have to agree with tshadowchaser on this on.
> Terry


 
Jamjtx is right

Shotokan was developed by itosu for the okinawan schoolchildren.

And the elderly school teacher funakoshi watered it down further for the middle class japanese in universities there.

Training in long stances has no relevence to a street encounter.

Blocks do not work in the street high kicks are best left in films and tournements.

Uke and Berai do not mean block as a japanese person.

Also most of the top JKA men have no street fighting experience.

Funakoshi or Nakayama never had real fights in their lives.

 Nor has kanazawa, enoeda, andy sherry or his partner frank brennen had a real fight, this is the shotokan lineage from okinawa to england.

This is why it is practiced by 80% children and 5% women.

It is not a fighting art and the people teaching it are not fighters.

MF


----------



## OnlyAnEgg (Nov 28, 2005)

That's a bit polemic, don't you think, madfrank?

celtic:
I agree with most of the others that have responded: investigate and decide.


----------



## terryl965 (Nov 28, 2005)

madfrank said:
			
		

> Jamjtx is right
> 
> Shotokan was developed by itosu for the okinawan schoolchildren.
> 
> ...


 
 Well here we go again, I guess you are the all in mighty in street fighting and your instructor was the most street wise guy in the world(PLEASE). I have been studying for over forty years in that time when I was stupid I would see how my talent was towards everybody else and as I got older I found out that most instructors of true Arts have never been in a street fight, it is not worth there time.
Now Madfrank I personally do not know you so I will not judge but if you been in MA for a long time I would find it hard to believe you are a streetfighter, even the Ultimate fighters have rules and most of them have never been in a street fight either, I know one of my instructors was a UFC striking coach for over 10 years and he fought pride and K-1. *Just because some great instructors have never been in a street fight means nothing about there abilities.*

I know I'm going to get flack for this by some people I respect, but the line was cross and my opion is most people do not take the time to learn everything about the Art they talk about.
Sorry if I ofend anybody and I know I get dinged for my statements here and I know it is out of charactor for me to blow off like this.
My apoligy (mispelled) is in advance but I'm not going to erase my statement. Please fellow Mod and administrators try to see my point of view.
Terry Lee Stoker
probaly a former Mod after this.


----------



## arnisador (Nov 28, 2005)

madfrank said:
			
		

> This is why it is practiced by 80% children


 
In the U.S., at least, this is common for a great many martial arts.

There's much that I don't agree with in your post.


----------



## eyebeams (Nov 28, 2005)

I'm not particularly fond of some elements of shotokan, such as its traditional applications. On the other hand, it can be an effective base and conditions you well. For more study, though, you'll want to  do research on older kata and note the differences between shotokan and those styles. Some aspects of shotokan exist for technical consistency and not, in my view, effectiveness, such as the way back stance replaces cat stance in many instances. Still, if trained sincerely, you can use it to hit hard, stay rooted and keep surprisingly mobile from a low posture.


----------



## Gemini (Nov 28, 2005)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> I know I'm going to get flack for this by some people I respect, but the line was cross and my opion is most people do not take the time to learn everything about the Art they talk about.


 
Terry, I don't know if I am or am not one of those people, but I do agree with what you said here 100%. It is a shame that it's true, but the fact remains that most people base their opinions on what knowledge they have, being apparently unaware or unconcerned that there is so much more to learn than they know. Very few people have your extensive experience to measure their opinions by, and of those, even fewer realize it. They tend to make blanket statements based on lack of knowledge. They present them as fact because in thier minds, they are fact. As much as I may disagree with Madfrank's generalization, and his presentation of it as gospel, he is entitled to it. It will be up to celtic bhoy to read and weigh the responses to his questions and come up with his own answers. Having heard a lifetime's worth of nonsense like "TKD is sparring and is worthless in the street", from those who have either no/little experience in TKD sparring or street fighting, I would say that unless you are someone who has practaced shotokan and has used it in a real situation, you should make it clear that your reply is opinion and nothing more. 

celtic bhoy, to answer your question and by following my own example, I would say this. I have no shotokan experience, but here's what I have learned that applies to your question. Based on my own experience, I would agree with what was mentioned above that you'll need to try it on for yourself and see how it fits. I have known people who were very good street fighters with no martial arts experience and some with a good deal of experience that couldn't beat my 7 year old. As has been stated many times before by many different people on this board, it's not the art, it's the practitioner. If you have the ability to perform shotokan strikes with effect, it doesn't matter who it was designed for. It will be an effective art. Try it and see how it fits you.

Good Luck!


----------



## terryl965 (Nov 28, 2005)

Gemini thanks for the kind words, I know poeple have there opinions about life in general. I also know I should keep my emotion out of posting.

I would like to make an formal apology to MadFrank, since I do not know you I have no right to fry you as I did.

May your life be long and may your training take you to the pinnacle of life.
Terry Lee Stoker


----------



## Danjo (Jan 8, 2006)

Most martial arts are useful for improving one's ability to defend oneself. Shotokan is no exception. Real fights are never like they are in the dojo, however, the skills one learns are quite valuable. Balance, coordination, power, reflexes etc. are all developed in practicing Karate of any style. In a real fight this training will come in handy. Will it be as effective as someone trained in Krav Maga or MMA? That would depend on the individual to an extent, but the answer would generally be "no." The reason is that they are designed with only training one to fight. There is no other purpose to them. With Karate there is a lot more than merely learning how to fight. Fighting/defending oneself is there, but there are other benefits beyond this as well. I doubt we'll see a lot of 80 year-old MMA guys still training, but Karate is rife with people training in old age.


----------



## AlwaysTraining (Jan 8, 2006)

There have been a lot of things said here that I disagree with.  But, we're allowed to disagree.  That's what makes life interesting.

Now, I first want to comment that training in low stances has one great advantage, it makes the muscles in your legs much stronger with regard to balance.  Greater balance, as I'm sure we would all agree, is essential for being successful in a fight.

Also, as others have stated, fighting is not all there is to the martial arts.  There are a great many other benefits, non of which is more important than the other.  It all depends on what one is one's pursuit.


----------



## Sapper6 (Jan 8, 2006)

celtic bhoy said:
			
		

> *I don't want to start any civil wars I just want an educated answer.*
> 
> *I have recently moved to a different area and the only style that really appears to be available is Shotokan. I don't have much knowledge of karate.*
> 
> ...


 
good luck in your search.


----------



## terryl965 (Jan 8, 2006)

I wish to thank you for the negative ding. My post was not belittle anybody it was a statement on my way of thinking and then I personally did a open apology for the mases. The case is close in my eyes.
I wish to thank everybody for there responses and there opinion about the subject, I hope everybody trains hard and gets wiser in there training.
Terry


----------



## AdrenalineJunky (Jan 8, 2006)

In my experience, there is no bad martial art, just people being unrealistic about what it is. The only way to tell if it's a good art for you is to go down, meet the instructor, get introduced to some of the top students, do a few drop ins, and make your assessment from there. I have frequently been without Muay Thai instructors; it has not been very popular until recently. I have made due by training on my own, and trying to find new places to train. TKD wasn't for me, although I found someone there that was interested in training Muay Thai, which we did. Kenpo wasn't for me (although I'd give it a second thought, if I had to), but I found a great guy there to train with on the side. We became good friends, a I helped prepare him for the sparring portion of some of his tests, and tried to help be the "dummy" for some of his two man drills. Kenpo ain't easy. I trained with a Ninjutsu guy that was relocated here, without anyone to train with. Found him at an Aikido gym, along with a guy that was interested in getting more experience with "Atemi," whatever that is. A guy I met at a Shorin Ryu place wanted to get into cage fighting; worked with him for a while. Worked a little at an MMA gym that was mainly doing JKD and PFS for stand-up. JKD is also something I'd rethink.


----------



## Danjo (Jan 8, 2006)

I began training in Shotokan when I was 12 years old. I had trained for about 6 months when a kid in my Jr. Highschool decided to fight me. He had heard that I was taking Karate lessons and decided that he had to test me. He threw a sloppy front kick and I blocked it reflexively (hard too). Then he threw a punch which I also blocked effortlessly (also hard). He quit right then. Two blocks, both of which hurt him a bit. And he quit before finding out what I would do if I started throwing at him. Real fight (though not really dangerous) and what Shotokan allowed me to do. I imagine any martial art would have done me as well in that situation, but it was Shotokan that I had trained in.


----------



## madfrank (Jan 9, 2006)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Gemini thanks for the kind words, I know poeple have there opinions about life in general. I also know I should keep my emotion out of posting.
> 
> I would like to make an formal apology to MadFrank, since I do not know you I have no right to fry you as I did.
> 
> ...


 
Hi

Thank you for the apology

I was about to issue a challenge till I read that. 

Apology accepted 

I've not heard anyone saying anything about Itosu and Funakoshi apart from saying they disagree with what I say.

Which bits?

Itosu did develop his karate for school children and that is what he taught funakoshi.

The JKA were and still are No contact competition based.

Can anyone deny this with evidence, it is true.

I've trained with Enoeda, Kase, Ohta, Terry O Neill, Sherry Brennan etc.

Unfortunately I have had several street fights and survived a mugging by 5 guys in my time not big or clever just fact.

I'm constantly looking for knew training partners if any one feels likes testing me get in touch. 

MF


----------



## terryl965 (Jan 9, 2006)

Madfrank maybe instead of saying testing me, like it is some kind of challenge, one should say come in train with me so we can learn together. I believe the latter of the two statements would be accepted with less anger.

Challenges have been gone from my personality for over 20 years but training with other MA'ers is a oppotunity I fully enjoy. What part of the country are you in as you can tell I'm fromTexas Arlington to be exact. If I'm ever around you maybe we can have some training time together.

Terry


----------



## peter (Jan 9, 2006)

Hi Guys

Talking from a UK perspective, I feel very lucky and honored to have witnessed the late Keinosuke Enoeda Sensei demonstrate Shotokan Karate-Do at the very highest level.  This was 1979, and his fierce fighting spirit and the destructive power of his technique still haunts me today.

The UK has produced, largely via the teachings of Enoeda Sensei, some serious worldclass Karate-ka, many of whom were in the first team to ever beat the Japanese during the early 1970's.  Discussions with one very senior instructor certainly suggest that Shotokan can work extremely well in the street.

I think that Shotokan is certainly one of the major Karate systems and deserves a great deal of respect. :asian:   Regardless of comments concerning a 'children's art,' Shotokan has earned the right of respect from all serious martial artists.  The JKA Instructor class has always been regarded as one of the toughest within the Karate world.  Certainly not for the faint-hearted or armchair practitioner.

Best regards

Peter Lewis - 5th Dan
www.yuli-romo.com
www.bakbakan.com
www.worcester-eskrima.co.uk


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 9, 2006)

For those who truly know Itosu's kata, there is no way one can call them a "children's art".  The pinan katas contain brutal ways to kill an opponent and they contain others that "only" maim.  Master Itosu taught these kata to children in order to train them for the military.  He did not teach the applications...saving those for a later day when they were ready to understand the material.


----------



## Zorba (Jan 22, 2006)

i have been doing shotokan now for a couple years and tho i dont know close to everything about the art, i do know that our school does concentrate a lot on self defense. We are also lucky that our sensei is also black belt and other arts such as jiu jitsu and hapkido. 

but in karate class, we use karate self defence. We do a lot of ipon kumite (1 step sparring) and we also do some jiu kumite (free sparring). When doing free sparing we are in kumai stance, which is lite and flowing, but for basics we use low strong stances to build up strength.

obviously we do Kata as well, which is a very important part of the training. if you cant do the kata well, you will not be promoted. However, we also do bunkai of the kata, which i have heard a lot of schools (in australia anyway) skip. Bunkai is the self defence application of the kata. So kata is not just a set of moves to us, kata is a way of defending against certain attacking methods.

so in my view, yes shotokan is very effective for self defence.


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Jan 23, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> For those who truly know Itosu's kata, there is no way one can call them a "children's art". The pinan katas contain brutal ways to kill an opponent and they contain others that "only" maim.


 
The pinan kata is basically a longer Kata (Chatan Yara Kushanku) broken down into five smaller and easier-to-digest katas, so that the younger practitioners could learn them easier and faster.

And yes, it's simply cut up into pieces, not diluted in any ways


----------

