# Lacking Spirituality in Japan?



## Jenna (Jun 22, 2006)

Hello all my learned MT friends 

I was in touch with a pal last night who I have not spoken to in a while and he is working in Japan at Kyoto at the university I think and practicing his Aikido out there also. But the thing he said that I found most interesting and puzzling was that there is almost NO talk of the spiritual aspects of Aikido out there for him. He was uncertain if that was just an insular view from practicing at his own dojo but his thoughts were that there is NO great spirituality in the martial arts out in Japan AT ALL and perhaps in the wider Japanese society also.

I am surprised to hear of this lacking spirituality in Japan especially in the MA there in light of the fact that SO many of the originators of Japanese TMA styles were deeply religious .. Shintoism etc.. or at the very least had their own spiritual commitment which they fed into their martial creations..

Is any of this generally true? Can anyone shed any light on why this lacking spirituality might be the case?

Thank you sincerely in advance 
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 22, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hello all my learned MT friends
> 
> I was in touch with a pal last night who I have not spoken to in a while and he is working in Japan at Kyoto at the university I think and practicing his Aikido out there also. But the thing he said that I found most interesting and puzzling was that there is almost NO talk of the spiritual aspects of Aikido out there for him. He was uncertain if that was just an insular view from practicing at his own dojo but his thoughts were that there is NO great spirituality in the martial arts out in Japan AT ALL and perhaps in the wider Japanese society also.


 
They also use to worship the Emperor as a god too, but you don't seem to see anyone lamenting that. I think what we need to understand in the west is that it is the 21st century in Japan too. 



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> I am surprised to hear of this lacking spirituality in Japan especially in the MA there in light of the fact that SO many of the originators of Japanese TMA styles were deeply religious .. Shintoism etc.. or at the very least had their own spiritual commitment which they fed into their martial creations..


 
You need to look into the martial arts history of Japan a little more. They were not based in anything even remotely close to what you could call deeply religious. I think you may be making an assumption here based on Aikido, which is a 'do'

That brings me to Japanese martial arts started out as Jitsu, which I believe is, war art. It was not until later they became 'do' which was more for self-cultivation. 

Jujitsu Aikijitsu, Kenjitsu, and the like are not for spiritual development. Also you need to take into account that there is no separation between religion and everything else in the East as compared to the west. As I have said many times before it is intrinsic. It was never up to the Sensei to tell his or her students "look right there, that the spirituality you seek". The Sensei opens the door; it is up to the student to walk in. Even Zen Monks didn't and don't teach Spirituality directly in Japan, that is what a koan is for.

As for Shinto it is deeply ingrained in the Japanese culture. Look to understand the culture and you will see that. If you want to see Shinto ritual practiced in a martial art go to a Sumo event you will see it. 

Many of the Samurai practiced Shinto and some even became Shinto priests, but the martial arts they practiced did not come from Shinto. And to be honest Japanese history has much more war and fighting in it than spirituality.

I have a friend that goes to Japan quite often his wife is from there. She is a Black belt in Kendo and spirituality never even enters into it. She had to study Shinto growing up as well, and I still do not here her ever talk about spirituality in martial arts.


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## Carol (Jun 22, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> They also use to worship the Emperor as a god too, but you don't seem to see anyone lamenting that. I think what we need to understand in the west is that it is the 21st century in Japan too.
> 
> You need to look into the martial arts history of Japan a little more. They were not based in anything even remotely close to what you could call deeply religious. I think you may be making an assumption here based on Aikido, which is a 'do'
> 
> ...


 
Agreed.


Japan also had a caste system that was just as vertical and subject to the same constraints of birth.  At the top were the Samurai.  One could not aspire to be a Samurai, one was born to a family.  Interestingly enough priests/monks were not classified in this system and had the same sort of indirect connection to society as their spirituality did. They sort of floated about outside its constraints, as did entertainers and certain other unique classifications.


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## MartialIntent (Jun 23, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> They also use to worship the Emperor as a god too, but you don't seem to see anyone lamenting that. I think what we need to understand in the west is that it is the 21st century in Japan too.


Yeah but I think the key is in _comparison_ to other countries in this C21st. And Japan by many accounts has a significantly lower *percentage* of citizens classing themselves as religous believers or followers than many western countries [especially the US]. Religion doesn't have such a big role amongst Japanese citizens as for example Islam does for Malays in E. Asia or Buddhism does for Thais and Chinese. Most Japanese though still observe Shinto [or Buddhism] but respect them as _traditions_ rather than a devotion such as the likes of Ueshiba had.



> You need to look into the martial arts history of Japan a little more. They were not based in anything even remotely close to what you could call deeply religious. I think you may be making an assumption here based on Aikido, which is a 'do'


I'm _sorry_? OK what's deeply religious to one person probably isn't to everyone but you seem to be at the end of the spectrum that applies a somewhat more fussy set of criteria to what determines the classification as "deeply religous". Jenna's original post doesn't imply that all JMAs are based in religion but rather alludes to the idea that "_many of the originators of Japanese TMA styles were deeply religious_". 

Morehei Ueshiba was referred to as "the most religious man in Japan", it being his custom to pray at every shrine he passed. In his formative martial years O'Sensei took formal study at a Shingon Buddhist temple and, as is common knowledge, subsequently developed a significant devotion to Shinto of the Omoto Sect following teachings of the charasmatic religious leader Onisaburo Deguchi. If that doesn't classify the founder of an art as religious, well I can only guess at what would. It doesn't imply that practitioners are forced into these practices but it certainly *does* mean that this is what the art is based upon.

Of course you don't like using Aikido as an example, well there's always the phenomenal Shorinji Kempo - one of the most complete and whole MAs ever devised [imho, of course]. And in fact not only is Doshin So's creation an MA but it's also a registered *religion* in Japan. But maybe that's not deeply religious either. Hehe.

Of course there are many more examples such as this and if you also practice what you preach, it might be an idea for you [as you suggest] to "look into the martial arts history of Japan a little more". No offense intended.

Respects!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 23, 2006)

My time in Japan for training was simply all about hard rigorous training.  We were commited to training at least two times a day of four or more hours each day.  While Sensei's instruction was quick, fast paced and energetic he did occasionally through in some philosophy and spirituality.
However, I believe at least in the Bujinkan that training your taijutsu is first and foremost and then you will develop your *spirit* along the way.  I would say that spirituality in the martial arts in Japan is alive and well. 

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2006)

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Yeah but I think the key is in _comparison_ to other countries in this C21st. And Japan by many accounts has a significantly lower *percentage* of citizens classing themselves as religous believers or followers than many western countries [especially the US]. Religion doesn't have such a big role amongst Japanese citizens as for example Islam does for Malays in E. Asia or Buddhism does for Thais and Chinese. Most Japanese though still observe Shinto [or Buddhism] but respect them as _traditions_ rather than a devotion such as the likes of Ueshiba had.
> 
> 
> I'm _sorry_? OK what's deeply religious to one person probably isn't to everyone but you seem to be at the end of the spectrum that applies a somewhat more fussy set of criteria to what determines the classification as "deeply religous". Jenna's original post doesn't imply that all JMAs are based in religion but rather alludes to the idea that "_many of the originators of Japanese TMA styles were deeply religious_".
> ...


 
See the below



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> I am surprised to hear of this lacking spirituality in Japan especially in the MA there in light of the fact that SO many of the originators of Japanese TMA styles were deeply religious


 
Actually what Jenna said is above.

And it is wrong. Japanese martial arts 'originators' designed martial arts as "Jitsu" Which are War arts. And although many of the designers practiced Shinto, they did not design there arts for spiritual or self cultivation. They designed them to survive in a battle and kill their enemy. 

The 'do" or self cultivation stuff came later. 

So my knowledge of Japanese MA history is quite good and based in fact, not a western view of martial arts and spirituality (no offense meant nor taken)

As for Aikido, it is a 'do' (as are your other examples) and yes Ueshiba was very spiritual, no doubt. And I don't know where you got the idea I did not like using aikido as an example, it is a good example of a martial art that is from Japan that has is spiritual. 

However Ueshiba is not one of the originators of Japanese martial arts. He is the originator of Aikido, which came much later and is certainly not the origin on TMA in Japan.

As for China and a big Buddhist role. Nope, it ain't all that big. 

However like the Japanese and unlike the west there is no big separation between religion and society in general.

And as I have said before it is not up to any MA teacher whether that be in Chine, Japan, Russia, USA, England, Germany, Thailand, etc. To take out their laser pointer and point to Spirituality, it is up to them to train you and any spirituality you gain is a side effect of the training from what you put into it. It is up the student to work at it, not the teacher to hand it to them. As for spirituality in Japanese martial arts today, it is very likely there, but you are not going to find it by going to a Karate class, Jujitsu class or Aikido class if you are expecting them to stop for a Shinto ritual. If you want to see overt Shinto ritual in Japanese MA go to Sumo

And I will add this, I have said, in real life not web life, that if you want to understand Japanese culture either today or of the past, learn about Shinto. Many Japanese do not overtly practice it and many say they have nothing to do with it, but it is ingrained in their society. But you will not find anyone to say "hey... Look right there...that's Shinto"


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## Jenna (Jun 23, 2006)

Thank you all for your considered replies  and yes I think I can claim SOME knowledge of the history of the traditional arts of Japan thank you.. pffft.. though certainly I never tire of learning more.. and though there was a great feudal history in Japan still there was in parallel a vast spiritual/religious undercurrent if you want to call it that through which sprouted many of the modern "do" JMAs and all I am saying .. and having no argument with anyone.. is that I am surprised to hear that there was little discussion or application of the spiritual aspects particularly in Aikido but by all accounts in other "spiritually developed" arts as practiced over there. 

Thank you all again for your time 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2006)

As said before it is intrinsic.

If you look and train it hard enough you will probably find it, but if you are going to the Aikido Dojo expecting a Shinto ceremony you are in the wrong place.

Shinto and Zen are ingrained in the culture it is everywhere, it is just not as blatantly obvious as us we westerners would like

Tell your friend to get a book on Bushido, that is a good place to start.


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## Jenna (Jun 23, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> As said before it is intrinsic.
> 
> If you look and train it hard enough you will probably find it, but if you are going to the Aikido Dojo expecting a Shinto ceremony you are in the wrong place.
> 
> ...


mister Xue Sheng it is plain to me that you have a great deal of experience and knowledge in these things but you appear to utilise it here at a level which is only a little shy of arrogant I will say. I cannot be certain if you are genuinely seeking to help me here but are doing so unawares of your condescending language or maybe perhaps you are seeking verbal battle or even there is a chance you simply desire adulation for your intellect. I cannot tell which but I will ..naively perhaps..take your reply as a genuine attempt at helping me.. and anyone else interested.. to gain some ground towards an answer to this question.. If that is not the case maybe you can tell me directly.. 

I mean.. though my friend has not been in Japan for so very long.. he has been studying and practising Aikido for over 27 years so I believe he does not need advice on where in the bookshop he can find the Idiots Guide to Japanese Martial Culture.. and I think he and I both have been in enough dojos and temples between us to appreciate the difference. I apologise if this sounds overly shouty.. it is not meant to.. Thank you.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## pstarr (Jun 23, 2006)

My take on it is that, by and large, the Japanese are not as openly "spiritual" as we westerners are - in their martial traditions, training is usually very rigorous with little or no discussion of anything spiritual...


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Jun 23, 2006)

one of our teacher, however, has the habit of reciting a prayer (which he does not require us to follow) every time before training, it is the one with the handclaps and the "haramitsu dai komyo" thing.


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## Carol (Jun 24, 2006)

Other reasons I can think of would be speculating...but, perhaps they are worth throwing out for discussion.

One aspect...my own art is not known for its spirituality.  Yet, I feel that I learn many spiritual lessons from my training.  I would not personally like to train at a school that touches on the philosophical or spiritual side of MA training even though I practice an Eastern faith.  I prefer to see things in ways that make sense to me and encourage me to stay on my path.  I learn the most when I am deep in prayer and can spend time meditate on the more complex matters of faith until I learn whatever it is that I'm supposed to learn.   I guess what I'm saying is that the spirituality being mine...and not what someone tells me if is...if that makes sense.  

Another aspect is the perhaps darker side of Japanese society and I hope I can say this without sounding insulting because I mean no ill by it.   Many of the spiritual values of Aikido played an important role in the remaking of Japanese society after the fall of the samurai...as Japan got used to a society where people were equal and not part of a class...and in Aikido played a role in the transition.  In addition to learning how to live in a moral way such as treating others with respect and reducing one's ego...Aikido encouraged it's practitioners to be in good mental and physical shape.  

Not all of the teachings of Aikido have taken root.  Brahministic Japanese families still keep track of what families have descended from Samurai and what familes descended from the untouchables.  Many Samurai families are still held in esteem and some untouchables families still suffer the indignation of ceturies-old insult.   While the Japanese people as a group stand very strongly in solidarity....amongst one another there are folks that say and do some pretty nasty things to one another.   It seems reasonable to me that the values of Aikido, to a Japanese person, could even sound...well...preachy, depending on the context, and perhaps that is why it is downplayed.


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## Don Roley (Jun 24, 2006)

If you want my opinion......

The old arts were steeped in the culture, including spirituallity. There really was no need to teach or instruct people in many things, because it was just considered a natural state of affairs. The old arts really did have a lot to do with religion. Most, if not all, of them had a patron diety and things like that.

But again, there was no felt need to build a missionary program into the art anymore than a christian would feel the need to build it into a form of fencing in Europe. There may be references, maybe some chants for power. But no need to convert people to their way of thinking.

So, when society changed, the background for the spiritual aspects changed as well. No one probably thought too much about it. It was below their radar.

And I would say that if we are talking about Japan, then as a whole they are more superstitious than religious IMO. They go through the motions, but there is not a lot of faith in what they do. A lot of people would die for their religion. I don't think there is one in a thousand Japanese that would die for shinto or buddhism.

I think the reason is that the emporer was built up as a super diety for a few generations prior to WWII- if not more. Ever since the Mongols got taken out by a storm, this has been taken as 'proof' by the Japanese that their country and system was blessed unlike any other thanks to the emperor. And those that pulled the strings behind the throne in the late 18th century built this up even further. So you had people who were so fanatic that they would risk their lives to save a photo of the emporer from a burning building.

So, how much of a shock do you think happened when Japan was not only defeated, but the emperor went on the air to tell people he was not a god? It is kind of hard to put your faith in anything after something like that.

Japan has been drifting along without a form of religious faith like you find elsewhere for decades. Sometimes there is backlash by people seeking meaning in their lives. That is where some of the quirky religions come in. But for the most part, Japanese just do not think too deeply about the matter and just go through the motions. And they have been doing pretty good so far IMO.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 24, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Idiots Guide to Japanese Martial Culture..


 
While were on the subject on sounding condescending, that was a pretty good job there, as was much of that post.

Sorry if I offended you, I did not mean to be condescending, nor do I desire adulation for intellect either.

You are looking for spirituality in MA as is your friend, but you, as most do, are looking at it from a Western perspective. There are no neon signs or giant arrows pointing to it. And when youre talking Eastern cultures, many on this side of the globe tend to only see the picture post card view of people like the Dalai Lama and Zen Buddhists and then they get to the East and it isn't there and they are disappointed. I am sorry for this but the fact is it is much more ingrained and certainly not separated as it is in Western Culture.

I may be WAY to close to the subject to not come off sounding at least mildly irratated at the soirituallity seekers in MA today. Maybe you have vast knowledge of such things, I have no idea. However the majority don't, and I have got in to this before so I will keep it short. The majority of people that show up to a MA school looking for spirituality tend to want to change things at that school for themselves with no concern for the art, the teacher or any other students. That is all.

Yes Aikido has a spiritual base and I hope your friend finds it, but if he is looking for someone to point the way it just is not going to happen. I have a friend who also studied MA in Japan and his view was the exact opposite, he couldn't stand the level of those seeking spirituality that he encountered, he was training Karate and looking into Jujitsu and Aikido. He just wanted to train MA not go to a Shinto or Buddhist shrine. 

I do not mean to sound or be condescending, I can't help it if I do not agree with what youre saying and your original statement was flat wrong based on history. If you had started out with the 'do' I would have had no reason to comment. 

Sorry if I offend, it was not meant.


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## P A Goldsbury (Jun 24, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hello all my learned MT friends
> 
> I was in touch with a pal last night who I have not spoken to in a while and he is working in Japan at Kyoto at the university I think and practicing his Aikido out there also. But the thing he said that I found most interesting and puzzling was that there is almost NO talk of the spiritual aspects of Aikido out there for him. He was uncertain if that was just an insular view from practicing at his own dojo but his thoughts were that there is NO great spirituality in the martial arts out in Japan AT ALL and perhaps in the wider Japanese society also.
> 
> Jenna


 
Well, for me, reading this part of your post, several problems surface immediately.
1. Your friend trains in aikido and notes that there is almost "NO" (capitalized) talk of the spriritual aspects of aikido "out there for him". I am mot sure what this last part of the sentence means. I have been living in Japan for well over 25 years and have practised aikido all this time in the same dojo in Hiroshima. My teacher has never discussed the spiritual aspects of aikido at all. From talking to him, I think he thinks that it is not his place to do so. (He was orphaned in the 1945 atomic bombing, by the way, and one would think that because of this, he, more than others, would seek some spiritual dimension to his training. Perhaps he does, but he clearly regards it as something private and not to be talked about, something which each student must learn for himself/herself.)
2. Your friend then proceeds from the absence of talk about spirituality, "out there for him" in his dojo, to the general absence of spirituality in the Japanese martial arts as a whole, and then in Japanese society as a whole. though this is more tentative. This is a huge jump.

I once asked my students about the first question (I run a dojo in Japan. I am the chief instructor and all except two of my 20 students are Japanese): In what way did they think aikido was 'spiritual'. It was very hard for them to understand the question. They all thought training was 'spiritual' insofar as they understood the term, but only because training: 'keiko', 'shuugyou': itself had an essential spiritual dimension. Oh, and none of them claimed to be 'religious' in any way.

Yours sincerely,


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## Drag'n (Jul 18, 2006)

I've also been living and training in Japan for some time now. In Japan nothing is as blatantly obvious as in the west. Spirituality isnt really discussed in the dojo. But there is a very strict moral and introspective nature to the training that naturally effects you.
"Spirit" is so  intertwined  into Japanese culture that it isnt really thought of so much as a seperate thing. Religion on the other hand is something else entirely.
Reading the writings of some of the great Japanese masters though, you will see that they saw their training as something very spiritual in nature. You wouldnt hear them lecturing their students on spirituality though. They simply taught by  example. By pushing their students through the challenges of rigorous training we are forced to face our inner selves and learn from the experience. Talking about it dosent cultivate it.

"Less talk, just do it, and you will understand."

Just my thoughts anyway..


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## Jenna (Jul 18, 2006)

Drag'n said:
			
		

> I've also been living and training in Japan for some time now. In Japan nothing is as blatantly obvious as in the west. Spirituality isnt really discussed in the dojo. But there is a very strict moral and introspective nature to the training that naturally effects you.
> "Spirit" is so intertwined into Japanese culture that it isnt really thought of so much as a seperate thing. Religion on the other hand is something else entirely.
> Reading the writings of some of the great Japanese masters though, you will see that they saw their training as something very spiritual in nature. You wouldnt hear them lecturing their students on spirituality though. They simply taught by example. By pushing their students through the challenges of rigorous training we are forced to face our inner selves and learn from the experience. Talking about it dosent cultivate it.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this my friend  it is good to get the view of someone actually there.. I imagine what had been relayed to me from my friend is maybe a simple case of misinterpretation of cultural differences between east and west.. 

Let me ask you if I could.. are the Japanese religious .. or at least claiming religion.. to the same extent as in the west? I assume you are not originally from Japan? I had read elsewhere somewhere that religious take-up was at an all-time low in Japan.. Have you any idea if that might plausibly be the case?

Thank you again..

oh btw.. what are you doing for a job out there if you do not mind me being nosey?

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Drag'n (Jul 20, 2006)

I've been living in Japan for about 12 years now. I run a kids English school and work part time in the entertainment industry.
As for religion, I would say that what you heard sounds right. Japanese are really not  riligiously oriented these days. Perhaps their defeat in the war had something to do with it. It was religion that  inspired their fanatical "die for the Emperor" mentality, and look where it got them.
Perhaps also the fact that the standard of living is so good.
Religion is easier to sell to the lost and desparate.
Not that ther aren't any desparate lost souls here. There seems to be plenty to me. I guess they dont feel that religion can cure their lonely pointless lives. Electronic games and porn seem to be a more alluring "fix".


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## Carol (Jul 21, 2006)

Drag'n said:
			
		

> I've been living in Japan for about 12 years now. I run a kids English school and work part time in the entertainment industry.
> As for religion, I would say that what you heard sounds right. Japanese are really not riligiously oriented these days. Perhaps their defeat in the war had something to do with it. It was religion that inspired their fanatical "die for the Emperor" mentality, and look where it got them.
> Perhaps also the fact that the standard of living is so good.
> Religion is easier to sell to the lost and desparate.
> Not that ther aren't any desparate lost souls here. There seems to be plenty to me. I guess they dont feel that religion can cure their lonely pointless lives. Electronic games and porn seem to be a more alluring "fix".


 
And Pachinko. Don't forget the Pachinko.


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