# Is there a connection between Hapkido and Kuk Sool?



## Kittan Bachika (Jan 5, 2010)

I was running around youtube when I came across this clip. I recognize the from awhile but it was in a Hapkido school. In the description it mentions hapkido. Is there a connection?


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## Omar B (Jan 5, 2010)

Yes, Suh was apart of Jae's original group of students who learned Hapkido.  as were the Lee brothers who created Hwarangdo.

Worthy reading - http://www.hwarang.org/Hapkido.html 
The Family Of Korean Arts specifically - http://www.hwarang.org/Personal.html


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## dancingalone (Jan 6, 2010)

I haven't run across many hapkido schools that practice hyung, although I know there's at least one major line that does.  I'm aware of a few Kuk Sool Won splinters where the departing masters kept the Kuk Sool material and just called their system "hapkido".  I wonder if this Youtube video is from one of those such schools.

On an interesting note, there's also Kuk Sool schools that predate Mr. Suh's Kuk Sool Won.  Their curriculum are very similar to Mr. Suh's although Mr. Suh has changed a few of the forms like Ki Cho over the years.


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## dancingalone (Jan 6, 2010)

And by googling the publisher of the video, it's apparent he's involved in Kuk Sool Won judging by his website: http://www.martialartfitnessacademy.com.  So this answers the question of where the form came from.

A number of Kuk Sool Won masters recently left the KSW organization due to a franchise agreement coming from headquarters.  Wonder if this gentleman was one of them if he's listing hapkido as the art in his more recent YT videos.


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## Omar B (Jan 6, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I haven't run across many hapkido schools that practice hyung, although I know there's at least one major line that does.  I'm aware of a few *Kuk Sool Won splinters* where the departing masters kept the Kuk Sool material and just called their system "hapkido".  I wonder if this Youtube video is from one of those such schools.
> 
> On an interesting note, there's also Kuk Sool schools that predate Mr. Suh's Kuk Sool Won.  Their curriculum are very similar to Mr. Suh's although Mr. Suh has changed a few of the forms like Ki Cho over the years.



Kuk Sool Do.  http://www.kuksuldo.com/


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## Kittan Bachika (Jan 6, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> And by googling the publisher of the video, it's apparent he's involved in Kuk Sool Won judging by his website: http://www.martialartfitnessacademy.com.  So this answers the question of where the form came from.
> 
> A number of Kuk Sool Won masters recently left the KSW organization due to a franchise agreement coming from headquarters.  Wonder if this gentleman was one of them if he's listing hapkido as the art in his more recent YT videos.



Franchise agreement? What's that about?


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## dancingalone (Jan 7, 2010)

Kittan Bachika said:


> Franchise agreement? What's that about?



Just like how it sounds.  Increased licensing fees and restrictive operating clauses from headquarters.  Allegedly there was a provision that would have given KSW a financial interest in each school too.  Given that GM Suh is transitioning the leadership of the martial art to his son, it's no surprise that several senior KSW masters have made the choice to detach themselves at this time.


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## Kittan Bachika (Jan 7, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Just like how it sounds.  Increased licensing fees and restrictive operating clauses from headquarters.  Allegedly there was a provision that would have given KSW a financial interest in each school too.  Given that GM Suh is transitioning the leadership of the martial art to his son, it's no surprise that several senior KSW masters have made the choice to detach themselves at this time.



Is this how the Kukkiwon and WTF work? I heard that the testing fees for black belts cost an arm and a leg.


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## goingd (Jan 8, 2010)

Kittan Bachika said:


> Is this how the Kukkiwon and WTF work? I heard that the testing fees for black belts cost an arm and a leg.



The Kukkiwon has no licensing fees, no membership fees. Unless you're paying for a special seminar or class or something, all they have is certification fees, and they're not actually that bad. First Dan is $70, but a lot of masters will charge about $500 and say it all goes to the Kukkiwon.


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## shesulsa (Jan 8, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Just like how it sounds.  Increased licensing fees and restrictive operating clauses from headquarters.  Allegedly there was a provision that would have given KSW a financial interest in each school too.  Given that GM Suh is transitioning the leadership of the martial art to his son, it's no surprise that several senior KSW masters have made the choice to detach themselves at this time.



KSW is not the only art to instill such a practice - and it has damn near killed it and most other arts who do this.  Some people have called it "indentured servitude."

I'm sure this kind of system was set up to ensure the higher ranking older men were cared for in retirement since there were no 401k's out there.  Today, these retirement opportunities exist and while it's difficult to turn a profit in martial arts these days, this would only make it impossible and not-in-keeping with our American political and financial system.


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## Kumbajah (Jan 8, 2010)

How is franchising un-American? It is a model we use extensively and export around the world a la McDonalds. Modern franchising is almost an American invention.


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## shesulsa (Jan 8, 2010)

Kumbajah said:


> How is franchising un-American? It is a model we use extensively and export around the world a la McDonalds. Modern franchising is almost an American invention.



The type of franchising we have here does not disallow a person to be successful financially in spreading the product or service.  

How would you like to send 50% of your profits to the head of the system you teach? How much would you have to charge to accommodate that, the cost of running a professional training hall and pay yourself some kind of salary?


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## Kumbajah (Jan 8, 2010)

I don't know the details of the franchise agreement but "corporate" usually gets a cut in exchange for brand recognition and other corporate perks. ( larger buying power, training, etc) 

Personally, I think the commercialization of MAs compromises them as a rule but I wouldn't single out franchising as a evil practice above the rest. Hopefully it would put in some level of quality control, so they are at least the same/similar where ever you go. You pretty much know what you are getting when you order a big mac anywhere in the world. No one would mistake it for filet mignon nor hopefully expect it, but you be able to expect a somewhat "baseline" quality.


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## Kittan Bachika (Jan 9, 2010)

I am not a big fan of franchising. The schools I have seen who embrace that model usually become black belt factories because quality control gives way to making making profits. However I have see schools branch out where a member with a high rank and starts another school in another area as representative of that school. How this is different from franchising, I have no idea. But I have noticed the quality stays consistent.


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## Dennis (Jan 9, 2010)

I am in Hapkido, but I know nothing of the other style, do think I have even heard of it.              Dennis


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## Kumbajah (Jan 11, 2010)

Kittan Bachika said:


> I am not a big fan of franchising. The schools I have seen who embrace that model usually become black belt factories because quality control gives way to making making profits. However I have see schools branch out where a member with a high rank and starts another school in another area as representative of that school. How this is different from franchising, I have no idea. But I have noticed the quality stays consistent.



They could both be franchising. That is the business model. Basically - here is a business, here are the licensing, materials and supplies needed to run it and here are the best practices on how to run it. It will cost you x amount to purchase the business. You are beholden to the corporate office that can revoke your franchise if you aren't meeting corporate standards. 

I think what you are addressing is where the franchises come from - internal or external. If they come from internally the person can be groomed to the position and style they are going to teach. 

No matter what the business model is they are there to make a profit. It is why people go into business. No one tries to lose money or does it purely for altruistic reasons. Why start a business then? You don't need a business to teach. Look the Rec programs / youth leagues for other sporting activities. Profit is the name of the game when you own a business.


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## Kittan Bachika (Jan 11, 2010)

Kumbajah said:


> They could both be franchising. That is the business model. Basically - here is a business, here are the licensing, materials and supplies needed to run it and here are the best practices on how to run it. It will cost you x amount to purchase the business. You are beholden to the corporate office that can revoke your franchise if you aren't meeting corporate standards.
> 
> I think what you are addressing is where the franchises come from - internal or external. If they come from internally the person can be groomed to the position and style they are going to teach.
> 
> No matter what the business model is they are there to make a profit. It is why people go into business. No one tries to lose money or does it purely for altruistic reasons. Why start a business then? You don't need a business to teach. Look the Rec programs / youth leagues for other sporting activities. Profit is the name of the game when you own a business.



No disagreement there about the objective of a business or franchise. I guess what I am describing is an internal franchise.

What would you call it if a student leaves their school to start their own school? I have seen that happen where certain high level students start their own groups, usually with the blessing of their teacher, but no money is exchanged between the two parties. Is that still a franchise?


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## Kumbajah (Jan 11, 2010)

I think it a matter of who owns the brand. If you started at Joe Blow's Karate School and then opened Joe Blow's Karate School - East Patooka. Then that would be a franchise because you are beholden to Joe Blow and you are profiting from using his name. Joe still has the last say on what is Joe Blow karate. 

If you told Joe to suck it and went off on your own then no.


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## Kittan Bachika (Jan 11, 2010)

Kumbajah said:


> I think it a matter of who owns the brand. If you started at Joe Blow's Karate School and then opened Joe Blow's Karate School - East Patooka. Then that would be a franchise because you are beholden to Joe Blow and you are profiting from using his name. Joe still has the last say on what is Joe Blow karate.
> 
> If you told Joe to suck it and went off on your own then no.



What do you mean by brand? As in the name of school or style? If you started at Joe Blow Karate and decided to go of on your own and teach Karate, Joe Blow really has no say. The word Karate is public domain. Now if Joe Blow copyrighted and trademarked the name Joe Blow's Karate School and you open one up a school using the Joe Blow name, then that is a different story.


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## Omar B (Jan 11, 2010)

That's his point man, Kuk Sool was formulated and created by a singular individual.  Kinda like Col Sanders used to do with his chicken recipes before he started KFC.  Restaurants all over the south, then the whole country would gladly pay for his fryer, seasoning mix, etc for the privilege of selling _Col Sander's Chicken_ and display the sign outside.

Personally, I don't see franchising as a bad thing.  There are abuses of it, high franchising fees, drop in standard, and it goes on and on.  But then for every franchise that abuses it's franchisee's (and I'm not saying that's the case) there are 10 examples such as Best Western, Holiday Inn, Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts, where one outlet gives you the same good/service you would get at any other.


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## Kumbajah (Jan 11, 2010)

Omar's got it. There are arts that are legally protected under copyright law. (or if you use your teachers name etc) Kuk Sool Won and Hwarangdo come to mind. If you open a Kuk Sool Won school you have to do things their way and usually have to pay a fee (testing etc) to the head office. If you decide that you don't want to answer to the head office you can't call yourself Kuk Sool Won any longer. You are out of the fold.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 12, 2010)

Kittan Bachika said:


> Is this how the Kukkiwon and WTF work? I heard that the testing fees for black belts cost an arm and a leg.


No, this is not how the Kukkiwon and WTF work.

The Kukkiwon establishes minimum test requirements and establishes what techniques and hyung/poomsae/forms are a part of Kukki taekwondo.  Anyone can use and teach the techniques and forms.  If you want to be a registered Kukkiwon yudanja, then you must meet the minimum requirements set by the Kukkiwon, which includes knowing Taegeuk Poomsae iljang through paljang.

The individual school is free to make additional requirements.  Any Kukkiwon Yudanja of fourth dan and higher may sign dan certificates.  One can only promote to two dans beneath their own.  Thus a fourth dan cannot furnish a student a Kukkiwon certificate higher than second dan.

The WTF regulates sport taekwondo and has nothing whatsoever to do with ranks.  One does not have membership in the WTF.  One has membership in the national affiliate, which in the United States, is USAT.

There is no franchise with the KKW/WTF.  If you want your student to be Kukki Certified, send in the student's paperwork and the registration fee of 120.00 and sign off on the student being proficient in the minimum requirements and the Kukkiwon will furnish you with 14x8 certificate in your student's name with you as the certifying master.  

It should be noted that schools often charge over and above the Kukkiwon registration fee of 120.00.  That gold stitched belt is not free after all, nor is the master's time.   Some charge a *lot* more and do nothing more than conduct a test and send in paperwork.  Others charge a *lot* more, but give you lots of cool stuff to go with your certificate (our school does this, furnishing a high end dobok, gold stitched belt, and other miscellany).  Some charge just enough over to cover the cost of the test (the masters' time, cost of a rented facility in some cases).

If you do not care about Kukki certification and just want to teach taekwondo, then you are more than welcome to teach taegeuk forms and the body of techniques used in Kukki taekwondo, plus whatever else you would like.  Your students' rank will simply not be recognized by the Kukkiwon.

Sorry for the lengthy answer!

Daniel


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## shesulsa (Jan 12, 2010)

Here's a link to the contract Bob Duggan posted on his site in regards to WHRDA.  It is an example to be studied when considering copyrighted styles, intelligent property and franchising in the martial arts.


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## Kittan Bachika (Jan 12, 2010)

Omar B said:


> That's his point man, Kuk Sool was formulated and created by a singular individual. Kinda like Col Sanders used to do with his chicken recipes before he started KFC. Restaurants all over the south, then the whole country would gladly pay for his fryer, seasoning mix, etc for the privilege of selling _Col Sander's Chicken_ and display the sign outside.



I understand the point, man. But I am trying to clarify the school/ style issue. Kuk Sool is a style of martial art. But if you open up a storefront martial arts school but under a different name but use the Kuk sool curriculm, Kuk Sool can't touch you. 




Kumbajah said:


> Omar's got it. There are arts that are legally protected under copyright law. (or if you use your teachers name etc) Kuk Sool Won and Hwarangdo come to mind. If you open a Kuk Sool Won school you have to do things their way and usually have to pay a fee (testing etc) to the head office. If you decide that you don't want to answer to the head office you can't call yourself Kuk Sool Won any longer. You are out of the fold.



If you are opening a Shotokan Karate school, Funakoshi's descendants can't come after you since the name of the art is in the public domain.

As I stated before, if a student leaves his school and starts another school and no money is exchanged, is it still a franchise? An example I can think of is when people move to another state and they have the skills to actually teach a class and they get the blessing of their teacher to start their own school or group. I do not think that is a franchise since no money is exchanged.


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## Kittan Bachika (Jan 12, 2010)

Mea culpa for the double post. I really wanted to respond to these posters. Yeah. I should have done it in the first post. 



Daniel Sullivan said:


> No, this is not how the Kukkiwon and WTF work.
> 
> The Kukkiwon establishes minimum test requirements and establishes what techniques and hyung/poomsae/forms are a part of Kukki taekwondo. Anyone can use and teach the techniques and forms. If you want to be a registered Kukkiwon yudanja, then you must meet the minimum requirements set by the Kukkiwon, which includes knowing Taegeuk Poomsae iljang through paljang.
> 
> ...



No. Thank you for the lengthy answer. It explains how the Kukkiwon stays in business and why certain TKD places make so money. I always thought it was the Kukkiwon that made the prices it was in fact that some of these TKD schools raised the prices for these certificates. Kukkiwon makes its money since there is probably a ton of people testing for their black belts. 





shesulsa said:


> Here's a link to the contract Bob Duggan posted on his site in regards to WHRDA.  It is an example to be studied when considering copyrighted styles, intelligent property and franchising in the martial arts.



Thanks. I remember reading this awhile back and some other interesting information about WHRDA. The founder has a very colorful history. Whether it is relevant, well....


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## Omar B (Jan 12, 2010)

Kittan Bachika said:


> I understand the point, man. But I am trying to clarify the school/ style issue. Kuk Sool is a style of martial art. But if you open up a storefront martial arts school but under a different name but use the Kuk sool curriculm, Kuk Sool can't touch you.
> 
> If you are opening a Shotokan Karate school, Funakoshi's descendants can't come after you since the name of the art is in the public domain.
> 
> As I stated before, if a student leaves his school and starts another school and no money is exchanged, is it still a franchise? An example I can think of is when people move to another state and they have the skills to actually teach a class and they get the blessing of their teacher to start their own school or group. I do not think that is a franchise since no money is exchanged.



I'll clear it up for you, Kuk Sool Won is the name of the style and the school as well as the intellectual property of the founder.  Much like the name of my school and style are both Seido Karate.

If you open up a school as a private person under the name Kuk Sool Won then they can take action against you.  if you open something named Kuk Sool or something of the sort, it's a bit more tricky, you have to prove that the curriculum being taught is the same one from the other.


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## Kittan Bachika (Jan 12, 2010)

Omar B said:


> I'll clear it up for you, Kuk Sool Won is the name of the style and the school as well as the intellectual property of the founder.  Much like the name of my school and style are both Seido Karate.
> 
> If you open up a school as a private person under the name Kuk Sool Won then they can take action against you.  if you open something named Kuk Sool or something of the sort, it's a bit more tricky, you have to prove that the curriculum being taught is the same one from the other.



I still don't get it.

Joking. So in Kuk Sool's case the name of the style and school are one and the same.

So you practice Seido Karate? Interesting. Nakamura would have a lot to say about this topic considering what he experienced when he left Oyama and founded his own school.


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## Omar B (Jan 12, 2010)

Maybe you should do some research on franchise law rather than us try to explain something to you that you clearly seem to not understand after almost 2 pages.

Nakamura would not care what this topic says, I know the man.  It's not a case of his leaving Kyokushin and just re-branding it, Seido is similar, but appreciably different (hence the completely different name rather than using something that sounds just like Kyokushin) ... if it were not he would have just established his own Kyokushin organization, like many others.


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## Kittan Bachika (Jan 12, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Maybe you should do some research on franchise law rather than us try to explain something to you that you clearly seem to not understand after almost 2 pages



Thank you very much for that suggestion. I am not sure it will help since as you pointed out it has taken me two pages to get to this point. Can you imagine me in a law library?




Omar B said:


> Nakamura would not care what this topic says, I know the man.



Well I wouldn't know if Nakamura cared or not. I haven't heard from him since I never asked him. Then again we have never met. But I will take your word for it since you know him.




Omar B said:


> It's not a case of his leaving Kyokushin and just re-branding it, Seido is similar, but appreciably different (hence the completely different name rather than using something that sounds just like Kyokushin) ... if it were not he would have just established his own Kyokushin organization, like many others.




There was never any mention of Nakumura re-branding Kyokushin. I was referring to a story of what happened after he left Oyama's becaues lawyers were definitely not involved.

I thought you would get the reference because along with franchising there was also a discussion on this thread of legal actions that could be taken by Kuk Sool Won for those who did follow their rules. And I specifically wrote about what happened after Nakumura left Oyama.

I hope this clears everything up.


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## Omar B (Jan 12, 2010)

Kittan Bachika said:


> Thank you very much for that suggestion. I am not sure it will help since as you pointed out it has taken me two pages to get to this point. Can you imagine me in a law library?
> 
> Well I wouldn't know if Nakamura cared or not. I haven't heard from him since I never asked him. Then again we have never met. But I will take your word for it since you know him.
> 
> ...



So I guess you still miss the point.  They could not take legal action, because he was not teaching Kyokushin.  Much like if a KSW practitioner left and formed his own independent school could not be sued for some similarities.  see how that works?  Kyokushin and Seido though similar are different beasts, so no lawsuit.  Members leaving KSW and forming Kuk Sool Steve, Kuk Sool Joe can be sued because it's till the same thing.

Also, one does not need a law library to look up a law.  Computers, they are awesome.


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## Kittan Bachika (Jan 12, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Also, one does not need a law library to look up a law.  Computers, they are awesome.





Omar B said:


> So I guess you still miss the point. They could not take legal action, because he was not teaching Kyokushin. Much like if a KSW practitioner left and formed his own independent school could not be sued for some similarities. see how that works? Kyokushin and Seido though similar are different beasts, so no lawsuit. Members leaving KSW and forming Kuk Sool Steve, Kuk Sool Joe can be sued because it's till the same thing.



I see you still do not get the reference. I know there was no legal action was taken after Nakamura left. But if you believe the stories, some action was taken that did not involve lawyers. But then again perhaps you do not know story of what happened after Nakumura went on his own. Which is odd since you know the man.




Omar B said:


> Also, one does not need a law library to look up a law.



Yes. You can always talk to a lawyer.



Omar B said:


> Computers, they are awesome



Oh I agree. If it wasn't for computers we would not be having this absolutely fabulous conversation.


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## Omar B (Jan 12, 2010)

Well for the record, I don't think this conversation is quite as fabulous as you might think.

I do get the reference, but we are talking about enforceable laws, not just people taking matter in hand ... anyone can do that, doesn't make them right or the other person wrong.


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## shesulsa (Jan 13, 2010)

I was commenting on the question regarding franchising and HRD. Seems we can't seem to decide what the conversation is about.

Regards,


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## Kittan Bachika (Jan 13, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Well for the record, I don't think this conversation is quite as fabulous as you might think.



Well I have enough to share with everyone.



Omar B said:


> I do get the reference, but we are talking about enforceable laws, not just people taking matter in hand ... anyone can do that, doesn't make them right or the other person wrong.



I am glad you got the reference.  I brought it up because what occurred was in exact opposite to the legal actions that KSW would take if someone continued to represent them but did follow their rules and pay their fees.

Just to make sure we are on the same page, what do you think I am referring to?


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## Omar B (Jan 13, 2010)

I know the series of events you are referring to quite well, that's why I contrasted it to the legal wranglings.  After all, I only have 24 of my 29 years in the style.


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## Kittan Bachika (Jan 13, 2010)

Omar B said:


> I know the series of events you are referring to quite well, that's why I contrasted it to the legal wranglings.



There was a series? I thought it was just one event.



Omar B said:


> After all, I only have 24 of my 29 years in the style.



So you are relatively new to the style. *Ba dum dum cymbal crash.*
(This is a joke. A corny one I admit.)


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