# What has the Kukkiwon done for you?



## troubleenuf (Jan 12, 2008)

Was just thinking this morning..... OK dangerouse I know.  What has the kukkiwon done for me?  As with any organization that expects you to pay money to them this should be a question that is asked, and answered in a positive way.  But in my experiance the only thing the Kukkiwon has done for me is send me an expensive piece of paper.  Other than that?!!!  So maybe I am missing something.  Just thought I would throw it out and see if someone else sees a benifit that I am missing.  And lets keep in mind that if you join or belong to any other organization its not what they have done in the past thats important to you, its what they are doing NOW or in the future that has meaning.


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## terryl965 (Jan 12, 2008)

I'm confused by your question they provide you with certification that is recognized all over the world.

Also you said spend alot of money but the actual cost for a first Dan is $90.00 US dollars, where does it cost so much, except your instructor is charging you an arm and a leg, then I would understand.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 12, 2008)

I'm with Terry in confusion. Unless you not a school owner & charged a much larger fee from your instructor for your test: then I get it. If you're a student, you are charged a fee that is higher than what the KKW charges your instructor in order to keep the lights on & make a profit.

Are you talking about $90 1st Dan fee, or a higher fee from your instructor?


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## Brad Dunne (Jan 12, 2008)

I understand where your coming from, but you actually answered your own question: "All you get is an expensive piece of paper"..............

Just what would you want or expect from an organization may be a better question to put forth.


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## Miles (Jan 13, 2008)

I am a total Kukkiwon supporter.

I enjoyed meeting and training folks from all over the world at the Kukkiwon.  I look forward to my visit.

I learned the standardized techniques, poomsae and terminology at the Kukkiwon.

The Kukkiwon is the "mecca" of the majority of folks in Taekwondo (no disrespect intended to my ITF brethern).  As was mentioned previously, the Kukkiwon certifies black belts.  These black belts certificates are internationally recognized.  If your certificate is simply just a piece of paper to you and not a confirmation of the struggle and years of training, then perhaps you should change your perspective.  My 5th dan Kukkiwon certificate took much longer time and was frankly harder to achieve than my admission to the State Bar.

Another of the responsibilities of the Kukkiwon is to certify instructors to ensure not only quality and standardization of technique but of curriculum.  That is a huge task given the millions of practitioners in hundreds of countries.  To this end, the Kukkiwon has created textbooks, videos, and a website to help aid in the proliferation of information.

Miles


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## terryl965 (Jan 13, 2008)

Miles you are right about evrything in your post.


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## WMKS Shogun (Jan 14, 2008)

First off, let me start this off by stating I am not in any way affiliated with KKW. That said, it seems to me that the KKW offers a degree of standardization, instructor certification, teaching, advancement of the art through research, and a world wide unifying body. What you get out of it is also dependant on what you put into it.


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## Brad Dunne (Jan 14, 2008)

I enjoyed meeting and training folks from all over the world at the Kukkiwon. I look forward to my visit.

That's all well and good, but there are far more TKD Kukkiwon practicioners and instructors who don't have the funding to visit the "Mecca".

I learned the standardized techniques, poomsae and terminology at the Kukkiwon.

I'm sorry to sound offensive here, but one should have been learning those attributes from day one of their training. If they reached BB level, then I'm sure they were partcipating in some degree, in teaching at their school. They should have had a firm grasp of those abilities, long before going overseas.

To this end, the Kukkiwon has created textbooks, videos, and a website to help aid in the proliferation of information.

Again, this is good, but that knowledge offered is at the minimum requirements. It's been discussed here at MT, that the majority of instructors/schools all go beyond these standards offered. The majority of information offered deals directly with the sport mindset and olympic hopefulls.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 14, 2008)

Miles said:


> I am a total Kukkiwon supporter.
> 
> I enjoyed meeting and training folks from all over the world at the Kukkiwon. I look forward to my visit.
> 
> ...


 
I'm also with you on this, Miles. I would add that while there is a standardization that they are trying to acheive, it's not Olympic-style fighting that the Kukkiwon is standardizing. Poomsae & SD are huge parts of the curiculum as well.


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## troubleenuf (Jan 15, 2008)

The Kukkiwon is the "mecca" of the majority of folks in Taekwondo (no disrespect intended to my ITF brethern). As was mentioned previously, the Kukkiwon certifies black belts. These black belts certificates are internationally recognized. If your certificate is simply just a piece of paper to you and not a confirmation of the struggle and years of training, then perhaps you should change your perspective. My 5th dan Kukkiwon certificate took much longer time and was frankly harder to achieve than my admission to the State Bar.

Another of the responsibilities of the Kukkiwon is to certify instructors to ensure not only quality and standardization of technique but of curriculum. That is a huge task given the millions of practitioners in hundreds of countries. To this end, the Kukkiwon has created textbooks, videos, and a website to help aid in the proliferation of information.

Miles[/quote]

Have some time this afternoon and thought I would answer this....
 You state that the certification from the Kukkiown is confirmation of you training and hard work.  And that I should perhaps change my perspective.  However I give you this.  Why do you need a piece of paper from a country far away to confirm your hard work?  Perhaps it is you who needs to change your perspective?  
  I too have trained at the Kukkiwon on several occastions.  However, the last time I was there was with the Pan-Am team for the World Championships (no wasnt a participant, just along for the ride).  Anyway, the "Master" who was in charge of the training spent more time belitteling the participants (many who were world class athletes) than he did in actual training.  Granted, while this was not my experiance on prior visits it did still leave a "bad taste in the mouth" so to speak.  I have also found that you will get different theory on technique depending upon who is doing the training and/or who is in "power" at the time.  Same goes for the books, and videos that are put out that are aproved by the Kukkiwon as officail sources for information.  I have a collection of these books.  All have differences in them.  The Kukkiwon seems to give their aproval based upon politics rather than what material is in the book. 
 Finnally, I would bet that the amount of money sent from the US to Korea is in the millions of dollars every year.  If that is the case WHY do we have to go to Korea to recieve any training.  Why dont they come here to give seminars and training on a regular basis to those who are supporting their programs?  Personally I have sent over $50,000 to them for certification.  I get a newsletter on occastion and a Christmas card.  The point I am trying to make is this:  If you belong to any organization and support it to that extent would you continue to support it without a viable payback?


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## IcemanSK (Jan 15, 2008)

troubleenuf said:


> The Kukkiwon is the "mecca" of the majority of folks in Taekwondo (no disrespect intended to my ITF brethern). As was mentioned previously, the Kukkiwon certifies black belts. These black belts certificates are internationally recognized. If your certificate is simply just a piece of paper to you and not a confirmation of the struggle and years of training, then perhaps you should change your perspective. My 5th dan Kukkiwon certificate took much longer time and was frankly harder to achieve than my admission to the State Bar.
> 
> Another of the responsibilities of the Kukkiwon is to certify instructors to ensure not only quality and standardization of technique but of curriculum. That is a huge task given the millions of practitioners in hundreds of countries. To this end, the Kukkiwon has created textbooks, videos, and a website to help aid in the proliferation of information.
> 
> Miles


 
Have some time this afternoon and thought I would answer this....
You state that the certification from the Kukkiown is confirmation of you training and hard work. And that I should perhaps change my perspective. However I give you this. Why do you need a piece of paper from a country far away to confirm your hard work? Perhaps it is you who needs to change your perspective? 
I too have trained at the Kukkiwon on several occastions. However, the last time I was there was with the Pan-Am team for the World Championships (no wasnt a participant, just along for the ride). Anyway, the "Master" who was in charge of the training spent more time belitteling the participants (many who were world class athletes) than he did in actual training. Granted, while this was not my experiance on prior visits it did still leave a "bad taste in the mouth" so to speak. I have also found that you will get different theory on technique depending upon who is doing the training and/or who is in "power" at the time. Same goes for the books, and videos that are put out that are aproved by the Kukkiwon as officail sources for information. I have a collection of these books. All have differences in them. The Kukkiwon seems to give their aproval based upon politics rather than what material is in the book. 
Finnally, I would bet that the amount of money sent from the US to Korea is in the millions of dollars every year. If that is the case WHY do we have to go to Korea to recieve any training. Why dont they come here to give seminars and training on a regular basis to those who are supporting their programs? Personally I have sent over $50,000 to them for certification. I get a newsletter on occastion and a Christmas card. The point I am trying to make is this: If you belong to any organization and support it to that extent would you continue to support it without a viable payback?[/quote]

*You ask others about their perspectives of the Kukkiwon based on their experiences & then question Miles because his experience was positive & not negative like yours. 

You seem to have a reasoned arguement for your negative experience. You've obviously thought about it quite a bit. It's left a negative impression on you. Your question about "a piece of paper from a country far away" has already got it's answer from your negative experience. The answer for you is "no, it's not worth it." Your perspective is negative already, so naturally, you will have a negative outlook on it. 

My question to you is, "what are you going to with your 'piece of paper from a country far away' that you have such bad feelings about?*


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## troubleenuf (Jan 15, 2008)

*You ask others about their perspectives of the Kukkiwon based on their experiences & then question Miles because his experience was positive & not negative like yours. *

Actually I question Miles because he question me?  Kind of have the right to do dont you think?  Whats got your feathers in a tuff.  I am just trying to raise a ligitimate question on why we send all that money to Korea.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 15, 2008)

troubleenuf said:


> *You ask others about their perspectives of the Kukkiwon based on their experiences & then question Miles because his experience was positive & not negative like yours. *
> 
> Actually I question Miles because he question me? Kind of have the right to do dont you think? Whats got your feathers in a tuff. I am just trying to raise a ligitimate question on why we send all that money to Korea.


 
*I understand that you're trying to raise a legitmate question. I agree, BTW, that it is an important question to ask. I just think it's funny that you ask a question on a forum to which you already have your personal answer & you get bent that others disagree. In case you missed it, I have no problem with what the Kukkiwon has done for me. If I had the issues that you've come across, I'd consider leaving. What are you going to do with the piece of paper from a country far away that you have bad feeling about? *


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## exile (Jan 15, 2008)

I'd like to interpose a question here and maybe help keep the temperature of the discussion on the cooler side. 

My question is this: the major argument that I've seen on behalf of the KKW is in this and other threads, the one that embraces the majority of TKD people (who can't afford to go to Korea to train) is that the KKW acts as an oversight body and ensures both standardization and the 'portability' of rank across large chunks of space and time. I'm skeptical about how much actual oversight is involved, for the reasons I've given, but like currency, it works if you believe it, so I'm fine with that general answer. But why is it that we TKDists _need_ this kind of portability? What is there about the structure of the TKD training system which makes this necessary or desirable? Does it work that way with Goju-ryu, say? If you have a BB from a Gojo-ryu school, does the credibility of your belt depend on certification and validation by a world center of Gojo-ryu oversight? I have the very strong impression that the answer is no, and that it's not that way for _any_ of the O/J karate or the CMAs that have gradations of rank. (If that's a misimpression, I'd be glad to be corrected, and I'm dead serious about that.) In these other systems, the legitimacy of the school lineage seems to be the crucial factor.  In contrast, it looks to me as if KKW ranking trumps school ranking, no matter how illustrious the teaching lineage, so far as legitimacy goes. If so, why would that be?


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## Kacey (Jan 15, 2008)

Miles said:


> The Kukkiwon is the "mecca" of the majority of folks in Taekwondo (no disrespect intended to my ITF brethern).  As was mentioned previously, the Kukkiwon certifies black belts.  These black belts certificates are internationally recognized.  If your certificate is simply just a piece of paper to you and not a confirmation of the struggle and years of training, then perhaps you should change your perspective.



Um... as an ITF-style practitioner, I fail to see how your interpretation of the WTF varies from my interpretation of the ITF - except that, being Jewish, I'm not overly interested in going to Mecca; Jerusalem, perhaps. 

My point, however, is that the ITF certifies black belts.  These black belt certificates are internationally recognized, and, if I understand correctly, require the same level of information as the WTF - the testing instructor fills out the requisite paperwork, indicating that the student has met the instructor's requirements, and sends said paperwork in with the requisite fee; some time later, a certificate arrives.



Miles said:


> If your certificate is simply just a piece of paper to you and not a confirmation of the struggle and years of training, then perhaps you should change your perspective.



I have several ITF BB certificates, and that they came from the ITF means very little to me - no one at the ITF headquarters to which they were sent knows me as a person (although GM Choi - not Gen. Choi, but his son - was on the testing board for my III Dan, which makes that particular ITF certificate worth more than others, where no one from outside the US was present).  What is important to me is that *my* sahbum signed them, that *he *certified that I had, indeed, demonstrated that I had reached a certain level of ability.  That confirmation is, indeed, priceless to me - but the piece of paper means little, beyond being a physical representation of that confirmation.

As far as what the Kukkiwon has done for me... well, for obvious reasons, I feel it's done nothing, as while I have had contact with various people who are certified by the Kukkiwon, I have had no direct contact with the Kukkiwon myself.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 15, 2008)

exile said:


> I'd like to interpose a question here and maybe help keep the temperature of the discussion on the cooler side.
> 
> My question is this: the major argument that I've seen on behalf of the KKW is in this and other threads, the one that embraces the majority of TKD people (who can't afford to go to Korea to train) is that the KKW acts as an oversight body and ensures both standardization and the 'portability' of rank across large chunks of space and time. I'm skeptical about how much actual oversight is involved, for the reasons I've given, but like currency, it works if you believe it, so I'm fine with that general answer. But why is it that we TKDists _need_ this kind of portability? What is there about the structure of the TKD training system which makes this necessary or desirable? Does it work that way with Goju-ryu, say? If you have a BB from a Gojo-ryu school, does the credibility of your belt depend on certification and validation by a world center of Gojo-ryu oversight? I have the very strong impression that the answer is no, and that it's not that way for _any_ of the O/J karate or the CMAs that have gradations of rank. (If that's a misimpression, I'd be glad to be corrected, and I'm dead serious about that.) In these other systems, the legitimacy of the school lineage seems to be the crucial factor. In contrast, it looks to me as if KKW ranking trumps school ranking, no matter how illustrious the teaching lineage, so far as legitimacy goes. If so, why would that be?


 
*You have a good point here, exile. Perhaps it's not an issue for a Goju-Ryu or other Ma-stylists. But you brought up the issue of lineage. With the intentional blending of the Kwans into Kukki TKD, most folks in TKD (at least many WTF/KKW ranked schools) don't know their lineage &/or Kwan background. So, they have to rely on their KKW cert. as the closest thing to a lineage. Since Kukki-TKD is so big now, the question of "who is your instructor" means little, anymore. You & I are in a unique position to know the history & lineage of our training. Most are not. *

*After I received my 1st Dan KKW, my instructor moved away. Although my instructor was respected in the area, I would have not been accepted as a 1st Dan in another school in the area had he not given me a KKW cert. I'm happy to have my 3rd Dan from my instructor's organization. It too, is signed by GM Uhm (like a KKW cert.) My instructor has a good enough reputation. But world recognition has greater still. I'd honestly feel that way if I trained in the ITF from the begining, too.*


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## exile (Jan 15, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> Perhaps it's not an issue for a Goju-Ryu or other Ma-stylists. But you brought up the issue of lineage. With the intentional blending of the Kwans into Kukki TKD, most folks in TKD (at least many WTF/KKW ranked schools) don't know their lineage &/or Kwan background. So, they have to rely on their KKW cert. as the closest thing to a lineage. Since Kukki-TKD is so big now, the question of "who is your instructor" means little, anymore. You & I are in a unique position to know the history & lineage of our training. Most are not.



Mmmm. Good observation. The 'demographic explosion' that TKD has undergone in the past several decades does tend to overwhelm individual practitioners in the mass. 



IcemanSK said:


> After I received my 1st Dan KKW, my instructor moved away. Although my instructor was respected in the area, I would have not been accepted as a 1st Dan in another school in the area had he not given me a KKW cert. I'm happy to have my 3rd Dan from my instructor's organization. It too, is signed by GM Uhm (like a KKW cert.) My instructor has a good enough reputation. But world recognition has greater still. I'd honestly feel that way if I trained in the ITF from the begining, too.



So this is an issue of scale, in effect. The sheer volume of TKD participation and the enormous number of people not only doing, but teaching TKD, leads to a kind of anonymity of all but the very highest ranking individual instructors... yes, I think that's a very big part of the story.


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## dancingalone (Jan 15, 2008)

exile said:


> But why is it that we TKDists _need_ this kind of portability? What is there about the structure of the TKD training system which makes this necessary or desirable?



That is an interesting point.  Certainly there's a human desire to feel connected to something bigger.  It's the reason why we root for sports teams or why patriotism or nationalism is still a powerful force today.  Perhaps TKD people have been sold on the idea of belonging...since the kwan system is largely dead, you'd really don't have the same identity provided by the ryu-ha system in karate.



exile said:


> Does it work that way with Goju-ryu, say? If you have a BB from a Gojo-ryu school, does the credibility of your belt depend on certification and validation by a world center of Gojo-ryu oversight? I have the very strong impression that the answer is no, and that it's not that way for _any_ of the O/J karate or the CMAs that have gradations of rank. (If that's a misimpression, I'd be glad to be corrected, and I'm dead serious about that.) In these other systems, the legitimacy of the school lineage seems to be the crucial factor.  In contrast, it looks to me as if KKW ranking trumps school ranking, no matter how illustrious the teaching lineage, so far as legitimacy goes. If so, why would that be?



You are absolutely correct, Exile, at least when talking about the Okinawan lines of Goju.  There are numerous Goju-ryu organizations through out the world, some more prestigious than others (in my eye) because they are headed by an illustrious sensei (like Morio Higaonna's IOGKF) or because they are connected to one of Chojun Miyagi's top students either through blood or through student succession (Shoreikan, Meibuken or Jundokan).  All of these Goju groups have somewhat different syllabi, but the relationships especially between the three latter groups I mention are generally good if largely isolated.   While there is pride and prestige in belonging to say the Jundokan, you certainly don't have the any rivalry like the ITF/WTF feud going on!  

Bragging rights in Okinawan Goju are largely by how direct a connection you can trace back to Miyagi Sensei.  There's really no concept of a large umbrella organization equivalent to the Kukkiwon/WTF.


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## dancingalone (Jan 15, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> * Since Kukki-TKD is so big now, the question of "who is your instructor" means little, anymore. You & I are in a unique position to know the history & lineage of our training. Most are not. *



This is also partially due to the standardization of TKD curriculums.  The various Goju ryu-ha do have slight kata variances and even additional different kata.  Shoreikan and Meibuken for example have extra kata that their founders created, and there are specific signature movements that will discern to an experienced eye which branch of Goju a student came from even when he is performing a kata that is used by all the branches.

With standardization comes the price of losing your unique identity.


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## exile (Jan 15, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> That is an interesting point.  Certainly there's a human desire to feel connected to something bigger.  It's the reason why we root for sports teams or why patriotism or nationalism is still a powerful force today.  Perhaps TKD people have been sold on the idea of belonging...*since the kwan system is largely dead, you'd really don't have the same identity provided by the ryu-ha system in karate.*



Yes. This dovetails nicely with what Iceman was pointing out about the loss of lineage connectedness in most TKD practitioners. Those of us lucky enough to be part of small, tradition-minded schools with strong senses of our own lineage connections to the pioneering Kwans are probably a very, very tiny minority of TKD practitioners...





dancingalone said:


> There are numerous Goju-ryu organizations through out the world, some more prestigious than others (in my eye) because they are headed by an illustrious sensei (like Morio Higaonna's IOGKF) or because they are connected to one of Chojun Miyagi's top students either through blood or through student succession (Shoreikan, Meibukan or Jundokan).  All of these Goju groups have somewhat different syllabi, but the relationships especially between the three latter groups I mention are generally good if largely isolated.   While there is pride and prestige in belonging to say the Jundokan, you certainly don't have the any rivalry like the ITF/WTF feud going on!



This is the sense I've had about Gojo-ryu for a long time. It seems to belong to a totally different belief system about the relationship between the school and the student than you find in TKD, in that in Gojo-ryu, and certain other karate styles, the school and its ancestral connections are paramount, whereas in TKD, the school is frequently just an 'intercessor' between the student and the mega-org.  



dancingalone said:


> Bragging rights in Okinawan Goju are largely by how direct a connection you can trace back to Miyagi Sensei.  There's really no concept of a large umbrella organization equivalent to the Kukkiwon/WTF.



Again, that's been my sense for a long time, and I think a lot of other karate (and non-karate) styles share that overall view of legitimacy.


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## Laurentkd (Jan 16, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> *You have a good point here, exile. Perhaps it's not an issue for a Goju-Ryu or other Ma-stylists. But you brought up the issue of lineage. With the intentional blending of the Kwans into Kukki TKD, most folks in TKD (at least many WTF/KKW ranked schools) don't know their lineage &/or Kwan background. So, they have to rely on their KKW cert. as the closest thing to a lineage. Since Kukki-TKD is so big now, the question of "who is your instructor" means little, anymore. You & I are in a unique position to know the history & lineage of our training. Most are not. *


 
I think you are right on with this point.  I honestly don't know what it would be like as a JMA or CMA to walk into to another school and claim a rank.  Must they allow you to keep it? Do you have to start over? Is it just up to the instructor? I don't know.  But at least with a KKW certificate you have something that is recognized (and I mean actually eye-sight recognized) the world over so that you at least have some ties to something bigger.  I really can't add more to what Iceman said, I think he hit it exactly.



exile said:


> In these other systems, the legitimacy of the school lineage seems to be the crucial factor. In contrast, it looks to me as if KKW ranking trumps school ranking, no matter how illustrious the teaching lineage, so far as legitimacy goes. If so, why would that be?


 
This is a funny thing as well.  I am glad I have KKW certification and I wouldn't want to give it up.  But I know others who have KKW certificates who would never have earned the privilege to test for them at my dojang.  We even tell students that the KKW certificate is a good thing to have, but you have to train must harder and learn much more to earn our school certificate than you do a KKW.  So while the KKW is worth a lot to the greater TKD community, my school certificate is worth more (in my opinion) because of how much higher the standards are to earn it.  Kind of a funny dichotomy huh!


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## Miles (Jan 18, 2008)

troubleenuf said:


> Why do you need a piece of paper from a country far away to confirm your hard work?  Perhaps it is you who needs to change your perspective?



Sorry for my delayed reply.  

Do I need my certificate to confirm my hard work, no.  My abilities (or lack thereof) speaks of the work I've put into my art.  However, I value my certificates-in TKD, law,  etc. as tangible acknowledgments of achievement.  Perhaps I will change my perspective as I grow older...




troubleenuf said:


> I too have trained at the Kukkiwon on several occastions.  However, the last time I was there was with the Pan-Am team for the World Championships (no wasnt a participant, just along for the ride).  Anyway, the "Master" who was in charge of the training spent more time belitteling the participants (many who were world class athletes) than he did in actual training.  Granted, while this was not my experiance on prior visits it did still leave a "bad taste in the mouth" so to speak.



Thank you for your honest opinion and story behind it.  I am sorry that your last visit was not as good as your prior visits.




troubleenuf said:


> I have also found that you will get different theory on technique depending upon who is doing the training and/or who is in "power" at the time.  Same goes for the books, and videos that are put out that are aproved by the Kukkiwon as officail sources for information.  I have a collection of these books.  All have differences in them.  The Kukkiwon seems to give their aproval based upon politics rather than what material is in the book.



I have perhaps the same materials as you.  I look at the art as evolving and our knowledge-base expanding.  So, as our art evolves, the information about it must keep pace.  As ways of promoting our art evolves, like better technology, this too must change.  I think it is positive and not just politics.  There have only been 2 Presidents of the Kukkiwon in the last 35 years so I think we've been pretty lucky as far as continuity is concerned.



troubleenuf said:


> Finnally, I would bet that the amount of money sent from the US to Korea is in the millions of dollars every year.  If that is the case WHY do we have to go to Korea to recieve any training.  Why dont they come here to give seminars and training on a regular basis to those who are supporting their programs?



Certainly, one does not have to go to Korea to get decent training.  That is one of the main goals of the Kukkiwon, to train instructors who can teach in their own countries.  However, I think getting immersed in Korean culture is educational as well.

As you may know, the Kukkiwon is sending instructors to California next month to train and certify International Poomsae Referees.  The Instructor Training Course has been taught in Egypt I believe.

One of the biggest promoters of Taekwondo  has been GM Park, Hae Man.  This gentleman travels the globe as an ambassador for the Kukkiwon.  




troubleenuf said:


> Personally I have sent over $50,000 to them for certification.  I get a newsletter on occastion and a Christmas card.  The point I am trying to make is this:  If you belong to any organization and support it to that extent would you continue to support it without a viable payback?



It sounds like you have been very loyal to the Kukkiwon's mission of certifying black belts.  I am not sure what you consider to be a "viable payback?"  What would like the Kukkiwon to do for you?

Miles


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## Miles (Jan 18, 2008)

Kacey said:


> Um... as an ITF-style practitioner, I fail to see how your interpretation of the WTF varies from my interpretation of the ITF - except that, being Jewish, I'm not overly interested in going to Mecca; Jerusalem, perhaps.



My apology was for my statement that the majority of Taekwondoin (with the exception of ITF folks) consider Kukkiwon was the "mecca."  I think our interpretations mirror our perspectives, and that is a good thing!



Kacey said:


> My point, however, is that the ITF certifies black belts.  These black belt certificates are internationally recognized, and, if I understand correctly, require the same level of information as the WTF - the testing instructor fills out the requisite paperwork, indicating that the student has met the instructor's requirements, and sends said paperwork in with the requisite fee; some time later, a certificate arrives.



Yes, I think as far as standardization goes, the intent of the ITF and Kukkiwon are similar, as is the goal for internationally recognized certification of black belts.




Kacey said:


> I have several ITF BB certificates, and that they came from the ITF means very little to me - no one at the ITF headquarters to which they were sent knows me as a person (although GM Choi - not Gen. Choi, but his son - was on the testing board for my III Dan, which makes that particular ITF certificate worth more than others, where no one from outside the US was present).  What is important to me is that *my* sahbum signed them, that *he *certified that I had, indeed, demonstrated that I had reached a certain level of ability.  That confirmation is, indeed, priceless to me - but the piece of paper means little, beyond being a physical representation of that confirmation.



You've brought up an important nuance to the discussion which is that your instructor thought enough of your hard work to risk his reputation by certifying you to an international body.  The paper may mean little but what it represents means a lot.  (I am thinking of the whole flag-burning issue-the fabric of any flag is not all that costly, but what the flag represents...well, the cost of freedom has always been costly).



Kacey said:


> As far as what the Kukkiwon has done for me... well, for obvious reasons, I feel it's done nothing, as while I have had contact with various people who are certified by the Kukkiwon, I have had no direct contact with the Kukkiwon myself.



Kacey, we'll convert you sometime...sort of like the Borg!

Miles


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## Kacey (Jan 18, 2008)

Miles said:


> My apology was for my statement that the majority of Taekwondoin (with the exception of ITF folks) consider Kukkiwon was the "mecca."  I think our interpretations mirror our perspectives, and that is a good thing!



When I was in the ITF, they were quite specific that the WTF/Kukkiwon existed to promote sport TKD (the WTF was frequently compared to the national soccer association, or similar organizations), while the ITF existed to promote technical proficiency.  While I have since learned differently, I doubt you will get most members of the ITF to admit to anything other than the interpretation I was taught.



Miles said:


> Yes, I think as far as standardization goes, the intent of the ITF and Kukkiwon are similar, as is the goal for internationally recognized certification of black belts.



I agree - although, as I said above, many, if not most, members of the ITF will disagree.



Miles said:


> You've brought up an important nuance to the discussion which is that your instructor thought enough of your hard work to risk his reputation by certifying you to an international body.  The paper may mean little but what it represents means a lot.  (I am thinking of the whole flag-burning issue-the fabric of any flag is not all that costly, but what the flag represents...well, the cost of freedom has always been costly).



True.



Miles said:


> Kacey, we'll convert you sometime...sort of like the Borg!
> 
> Miles



After 21 years (myself), 28 years (my sahbum), and 41 years (my sahbum's sahbum), I find this rather unlikely!


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## IcemanSK (Mar 23, 2008)

Kacey said:


> When I was in the ITF, they were quite specific that the WTF/Kukkiwon existed to promote sport TKD (the WTF was frequently compared to the national soccer association, or similar organizations), while the ITF existed to promote technical proficiency. While I have since learned differently, I doubt you will get most members of the ITF to admit to anything other than the interpretation I was taught.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Resistance is futile, Kacey. Join us.

Yup, I've been lookin' awhile for that icon


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## YoungMan (Mar 24, 2008)

What the Kukkiwon did over the past 30 years was similar to getting a high school/college diploma: it gave you tangible evidence that you were who you said you were. Because the Kukkiwon is (for now anyway), the premier governing body of Taekwondo worldwide, a certificate issued by it is recognized all over the world.
Now what that means is that you and your organization teach a standard curriculum, rather than making it up as you go along. What it also means is that it shows your students and your colleagues that you have credibility-a TKD body above your class and organization knows and recognizes you.
Think about it. Who would you rather study under: some goofball who claims 7th Dan but is essentially self/magazine taught, or someone who has credentials that are recognized by his colleagues? You can study under a self proclaimed or self taught teacher if you want and take your chances.
Now, having said that, I truly believe the KKW as we know will decline/disappear in 5-10 years as the older generation (spec. GGM Uhm) retires. I doubt anyone could replace him. Nobody has his kind of credibility.
What will happen? The KKW will become irrelevant and the Kwan system will reassert itself. Now, the good thing about this is that with the Kwans, you know who the Instructors are. As my Instructor mentioned, who your instructor is and his recommendation is worth much more than KKW certification. Honestly, under Dr. Kim, KKW certification was given to pretty much anyone in its quest for political superiority.
Problem is, I'm not even sure how Kwans would still be viable, other than Chung Do Kwan, Ji Do Kwan, and maybe some others.
So while KKW certification cerainly offered credibility, there was definitely a dark side to that.


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## matt.m (Mar 26, 2008)

Wow,

Well I hope not to get over looked on this post but I wish you all to consider this.  KKW certification is the same thing as U.S.J.A., U.S.J.F., or U.S.J.I. certifications
That is US Judo Association, Federation, and Institute.

For state level and above competition in Judo you have to be a member of one of the following that validates your rank according to if you are a junior or senior.  Same philosophy as jr. / sr. in TKD.

However, the major difference is this......for TKD only the 1st Poom or 1st Dan KKW or I.T.F. Cert. are the cert's recognized for higher level competition.

When I began teaching my Yudo class I asked the class "Do you want to become members of the USJA and compete at state level or do you just want our organizational certificate?  At Dan you will get the USJA Cert."

They went with the choice B.  I find it important that the Head instructors of classes whether it be Yudo or TKD to have KKW or USJA types of certificates.  It is a form of validation beyond organizational house belt.

Kacey, I pose this question to you.......considering that there are 3 factions calling themselves the "Real" I.T.F. which one do you find most prevelant.  Remember in Moo Sul Kwan I have said a million times that we do both the Tae Guek's and the Hyungs.  I personally like the power of the Hyungs better, but I am a Yudo/Hapkido guy on the path to dan in TKD."

However you are right in the assumption that the level of knowledge is equivilant between the I.T.F. and W.T.F.


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## YoungMan (Mar 27, 2008)

I would agree that the level of knowledge and proficiency of technique is equal in both organizations.
However,the ITF was essentially a cult of personality, based primarily on what Choi felt should be taught. When he died, the model for learning stopped.
The Kukkiwon was continually evolving, since there was no "Founder" or leader who determined what was taught. Yes, GM Uhm was the President, but his power was not absolute. It was not "his" organization.
Having said that. every organization has its time and era. The ITF and KKW had theirs, as did the ATA. New organizations and ways of thinking will emerge over the next years or decades.


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## terryl965 (Mar 27, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> I would agree that the level of knowledge and proficiency of technique is equal in both organizations.
> However,the ITF was essentially a cult of personality, based primarily on what Choi felt should be taught. When he died, the model for learning stopped.
> The Kukkiwon was continually evolving, since there was no "Founder" or leader who determined what was taught. Yes, GM Uhm was the President, but his power was not absolute. It was not "his" organization.
> Having said that. every organization has its time and era. The ITF and KKW had theirs, as did the ATA. New organizations and ways of thinking will emerge over the next years or decades.


 
I will agree new orgs. will come and matbe that will what will be bst for all of TKD since to many KKW certs. means absolutely nothing withen my school. I have seen KKW certified people that could not even do a prper roundhouse.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 27, 2008)

I have a deep dislike for large org's

They seem like money pits to me


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## exile (Mar 27, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I have seen KKW certified people that could not even do a prper roundhouse.



And that, I think, is the central, devastating fact about the KKW: the cases Terry refers to could not exist if the KKW actually delivered the oversight that its certification is widely assumed to vouch for. In fact, as reported by Kwan Jang, Terry, and others in this discussion, it does nothing of the kind. Given that state of affairs, the one claim that that the KKW asserts on our credibility&#8212;that it at least offers a kind of portability of credentials&#8212;pretty well falls apart, it seems to me.

I agree with Terry also that there _will_ be new organizations, focused much more on the realistic combat aspects of TKD as a fighting art. Who knows? Maybe one day there will an American analogue of the Kukkiwon, focused sincerely on the effective combat resources of TKD, as vs. whatever it is that the KKW currently occupies itself with. Organizations have their own natural life cycles...



Twin Fist said:


> I have a deep dislike for large org's
> 
> They seem like money pits to me



That makes two of us.


----------



## IcemanSK (Mar 28, 2008)

Maybe it's the idea of "the devil you know" but, I'm gonna stick with the KKW for now. As wary as I am of large organizations, I'm also wary of the upstart alphabet TKD orgs that pop up in the back of TKDTimes. It's often one guy who has cut all ties with his instructors & org. & started his own thing. 

I'd feel more comfortable with a group (or a few folks) who kept their ties with previous instructors, & yet, started their own thing. There certainly are groups like that. I trust them more.

For now, I'll keep my affilliation with the KKW & my Kwan.


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## terryl965 (Mar 28, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> Maybe it's the idea of "the devil you know" but, I'm gonna stick with the KKW for now. As wary as I am of large organizations, I'm also wary of the upstart alphabet TKD orgs that pop up in the back of TKDTimes. It's often one guy who has cut all ties with his instructors & org. & started his own thing.
> 
> I'd feel more comfortable with a group (or a few folks) who kept their ties with previous instructors, & yet, started their own thing. There certainly are groups like that. I trust them more.
> 
> For now, I'll keep my affilliation with the KKW & my Kwan.


 

Iceman I am not saying cut ties with anybody me I have my KKW sort of and you know the story, so I will leave that alone. But if  a few people like you me and some other forge ahead for the betterment of TKD and get it back to the roots that it was before McDojo's. That would be better for the future students of TKD. Please and you know this if you have the money you can get a KKW cert. from quite of few under liners, money talks and ******** walks. In my area there are maybe 12 people in the last year that have recieved KKW and they cannot even throw a roundhouse the right way and now they have saterlite schools for those that got them there KKW cert. and are making them more money. This is killing me and the art I love. Maybe we as a whole need to stand up for what is right and do something about it.


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## IcemanSK (Mar 28, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Iceman I am not saying cut ties with anybody me I have my KKW sort of and you know the story, so I will leave that alone. But if a few people like you me and some other forge ahead for the betterment of TKD and get it back to the roots that it was before McDojo's. That would be better for the future students of TKD. Please and you know this if you have the money you can get a KKW cert. from quite of few under liners, money talks and ******** walks. In my area there are maybe 12 people in the last year that have recieved KKW and they cannot even throw a roundhouse the right way and now they have saterlite schools for those that got them there KKW cert. and are making them more money. This is killing me and the art I love. Maybe we as a whole need to stand up for what is right and do something about it.


 
Terry, 
I don't disagree with you that a KKW cert. means little in & of itself. I have folks in my town with KKW certs that have never even SEEN a form, let alone been taught one. I'm saying that, for me as one who has one & is working hard to maintain it's meaning, I'm not going to go anywhere, yet.

I'm just less trustful of the singular person, with seemingly no ties to anyone, with their own organization, than I am with someone a KKW cert. I've been around long enough to smell :bs1:{beit from someone who claims (remember THAT is often in dispute, too) to have a KKW cert, or someone with a cert from an organization I've never heard of}. But, if I'm looking at school windows, I'm more likely to go check out a school that claims KKW afilliation, than I am to check out a school from a group I've not heard about. But I'm still gonna ask a lot of questions.:argue:


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## exile (Mar 28, 2008)

There are problems at both levels, the individual shady school and the corrupt superorg. But my feeling, like Terry's, is that the latter is the more damaging and ominous one. The vast amounts of cash that flow through the KKW system make it vulnerable to corruption (and boy, have we seen some high profile examples, eh?) and like an infection, anything that happens in such a top-down outfit is going to poison the whose structure in a _systemic_ way. There's reason to believe, from stories like Terry's, Kwan Jang's and others, that that's already been happening.


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## terryl965 (Mar 28, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> Terry,
> I don't disagree with you that a KKW cert. means little in & of itself. I have folks in my town with KKW certs that have never even SEEN a form, let alone been taught one. I'm saying that, for me as one who has one & is working hard to maintain it's meaning, I'm not going to go anywhere, yet.
> 
> I'm just less trustful of the singular person, with seemingly no ties to anyone, with their own organization, than I am with someone a KKW cert. I've been around long enough to smell :bs1:{beit from someone who claims (remember THAT is often in dispute, too) to have a KKW cert, or someone with a cert from an organization I've never heard of}. But, if I'm looking at school windows, I'm more likely to go check out a school that claims KKW afilliation, than I am to check out a school from a group I've not heard about. But I'm still gonna ask a lot of questions.:argue:


 
Iceman I totally agree with what you have to say, but look at GM Sells he is KKW certified and still has his own org. on the side to make money and remember I am not saying anything bad  about him. I have meet and talked to him and seems like a great guy, but even he wants something in the form of cash to belong to his org and to be frankly with you it is steep in my opinion. Do you get alot from his org. yes and is it worth it most likely so. We have had these type of converstations before and I do not believe the KKW and other such orgs. are a bad thing but it sure can become so if the wrong person starts to dis like you and you know they all stick together in some ways. I am glad you are happy with your org and I am sure if I went that route I would be happy to. Have a wonderful and beautiful day


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## Miles (Mar 29, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Iceman I am not saying cut ties with anybody me I have my KKW sort of and you know the story, so I will leave that alone. But if  a few people like you me and some other forge ahead for the betterment of TKD and get it back to the roots that it was before McDojo's. That would be better for the future students of TKD. Please and you know this if you have the money you can get a KKW cert. from quite of few under liners, money talks and ******** walks. In my area there are maybe 12 people in the last year that have recieved KKW and they cannot even throw a roundhouse the right way and now they have saterlite schools for those that got them there KKW cert. and are making them more money. This is killing me and the art I love. Maybe we as a whole need to stand up for what is right and do something about it.



The KKW relies upon the recommending instructor.  If that instructor's standards are minimal, the student will not be qualified.  The student suffers and the art suffers by extension.

As Terry says at the end, we need to stand up and do what is right-help those who are not qualified to become qualified.

Miles


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## terryl965 (Mar 29, 2008)

Miles said:


> The KKW relies upon the recommending instructor. If that instructor's standards are minimal, the student will not be qualified. The student suffers and the art suffers by extension.
> 
> As Terry says at the end, we need to stand up and do what is right-help those who are not qualified to become qualified.
> 
> Miles


 
Thank you Miles and Yes we need to help those get to the proper level.


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## matt.m (Mar 29, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> I would agree that the level of knowledge and proficiency of technique is equal in both organizations.
> However,the ITF was essentially a cult of personality, based primarily on what Choi felt should be taught. When he died, the model for learning stopped.
> 
> I disagree wholeheartedly with this statement.  I am sorry, but you never perfect technique, ever.  You can become "Masterful" at it.  However, not perfect.  I have to do the I.T.F. and W.T.F. hyungs and poomsea for belt testing.  As they progress in difficulty the W.T.F. poomsea with their walking stances and other high stances, not too mention lack of originality as they mock the I.T.F. Hyungs very much.
> ...


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## matt.m (Mar 29, 2008)

exile said:


> There are problems at both levels, the individual shady school and the corrupt superorg. But my feeling, like Terry's, is that the latter is the more damaging and ominous one. The vast amounts of cash that flow through the KKW system make it vulnerable to corruption (and boy, have we seen some high profile examples, eh?) and like an infection, anything that happens in such a top-down outfit is going to poison the whose structure in a _systemic_ way. There's reason to believe, from stories like Terry's, Kwan Jang's and others, that that's already been happening.


 

I have friends from Black Belt factories here in St. Louis that are red and black belts, within a year and a half, that make more mistakes in poomsea than I do.  And not to be demeaning but I am only a blue belt in TKD, which I was awarded in Dec. of 06.  So that means I have Purple, Brown, Red, then Dan to go, I am a firm believer that slow and steady wins the race, I guess I am either a tortoise or retarded when it comes to getting rank.  However, being an instructor I expect more out of myself just on principle.  Not to mention that I wear two titanium custom fit leg braces that is part of the reason I was discharged from the USMC.

Yep you heard it straight from the horse's mouth......10 friends from 4 different black belt factories.:erg:


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## exile (Mar 29, 2008)

matt.m said:


> I have friends from Black Belt factories here in St. Louis that are *red and black belts, within a year and a half, that make more mistakes in poomsea than I do. * And not to be demeaning but I am only a blue belt in TKD, which I was awarded in Dec. of 06.  So that means I have Purple, Brown, Red, then Dan to go, I am a firm believer that slow and steady wins the race, I guess I am either a tortoise or retarded when it comes to getting rank.  However, being an instructor I expect more out of myself just on principle.  Not to mention that I wear two titanium custom fit leg braces that is part of the reason I was discharged from the USMC.
> 
> Yep you heard it straight from the horse's mouth......10 friends from 4 different black belt factories.:erg:



I've heard far too many stories like this to believe that it can be just accident, or coincidence, or the odd exception. And I've heard the rationales and justifications, too. So take the WTF: yes, it's a huge organization, no one's quality control is perfect... you know how the line goes. And they _have_ a point, though not the one they think they're making. The real moral of the story is that there isn't a spoon long enough to keep you safe when you're supping with the particular devil that is the International Olympic Committee and its statellites and subsatellites. The IOC is way _more_ huge as an organization than the WTF, and as far as I can tell is shot through with the same putrid corruption but on a still vaster scale. Remember that nasty buisness with the Canadian figure skaters who were downgraded because the unspeakable French judge had a deal with the equally unspeakable Russian org about vote-trading? Well, the villains got nailed there, but plenty of people who would know, many athletes among them, told us that that was just the tip of the iceberg. The Olympic _world_ is filled with corruption and cynicism, and achieving Olympic status is maybe the worst thing that can happen to a MA&#8212;it guarantees that you are going to start hanging out, and horse-trading, with the master politicians of the sport world, and eventually will become just like them. Yum, yum.

And it's inevitable, given the fact that the WTF and the KKW are the twin MA instrumentalities of the Korean government, that the two are going to be basically reinforcing each other's game. Buyer, beware.


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## newGuy12 (Mar 29, 2008)

I say that if a school is a black belt factory, then the main fault lies with the Master Instructor, regardless of any affiliation.  After all, He or She must sign off on any promotion!  

EDIT -- The student has to exercise some kind of forethought when they join a School, but how can they know for sure?  They ultimately must trust their Teacher not to promote them too soon.  Any kind of headquarters, after all, is just some entity far away.  I have never been to KKW, I will never visit.  To me, they are really some people in a far away land, making rules and so forth.  I have high regard for them, but they are so far removed.  It comes down to the Master Instructor, the Sabum-Neem to make sure that everything is in order.  It is on thier head, they carry that weight -- that is the burden.  They know it (or should know it) going into this, with their eyes open.

And any student who will be "tracked" to be a future teacher has to be "heads up" and "clicked on".  What if they end up running a school?  You don't want it to look like a car wreck!  That is also the burden of the Master Instructor!


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## YoungMan (Mar 30, 2008)

The problem with this, though, is that the Kukkiwon does not really require much besides age, length of time, and cerification of the instructor requirements. As long as you have attained the proper length of time at your current Dan level, are of the requisite age, and your instructor is certified KKW, you can receive a Dan certificate.
As stated beforem the Kukkiwon issues certificates based on the instructor's recommendation. Trust me, there are a LOT of people out there with KKW certificates who probably never should have gotten them-a by product of the KKW desire to become powerful and influential by way of numbers.
But realize, it most likely never could have happened any other way. First, the Korean gov't was trying to establish TKD worldwide having received independence one generation before. Second, it was consciously trying to compete with Choi and his ITF.
The powers that be in Korea made two serious errors: putting a non-TKD man in charge of the Kukkiwon, and making him the head of several organizations at once. This is an invitation to corruption.
Unfortunately, by the time Mr. Uhm (a true TKD Grandmaster if there ever was one) ascended to the top spot, he was in the twilight of his career.


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## terryl965 (Mar 30, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> The problem with this, though, is that the Kukkiwon does not really require much besides age, length of time, and cerification of the instructor requirements. As long as you have attained the proper length of time at your current Dan level, are of the requisite age, and your instructor is certified KKW, you can receive a Dan certificate.
> As stated beforem the Kukkiwon issues certificates based on the instructor's recommendation. Trust me, there are a LOT of people out there with KKW certificates who probably never should have gotten them-a by product of the KKW desire to become powerful and influential by way of numbers.
> But realize, it most likely never could have happened any other way. First, the Korean gov't was trying to establish TKD worldwide having received independence one generation before. Second, it was consciously trying to compete with Choi and his ITF.
> The powers that be in Korea made two serious errors: putting a non-TKD man in charge of the Kukkiwon, and making him the head of several organizations at once. This is an invitation to corruption.
> Unfortunately, by the time Mr. Uhm (a true TKD Grandmaster if there ever was one) ascended to the top spot, he was in the twilight of his career.


 

This is so true but if GM Uhm wanted to he could have put steps on to make sure of the quality of the Art. He choose not to. We as in the TKD'ist of today need a new relm so we can build what others have forgotten about. We just need that influencial person to carry us on there shoulders.


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## exile (Mar 30, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> This is so true but if GM Uhm wanted to he could have put steps on to make sure of the quality of the Art. He choose not to. *We as in the TKD'ist of today need a new relm so we can build what others have forgotten about. We just need that influencial person to carry us on there shoulders.*



And what we need most of all, Terry, is that new org, oriented to the Kwan-era rough-and-tumble concept of TKD as a fighting art (however updated and technically modified&#8212;I'm talking attitude and viewpoint, not technical content necessarily) that has come up in previous discussions. Not a big, top-down federation, but functioning as a kind of looser organizing framework for dojangs, individual schools which are, and will always be (in fact, if not in name) the place where the quality of the art is maintained (or diluted). Something that works not top-down, or even totally bottom-up, but more back-and-forth. 


 I'm hoping that it'll happen in my lifetime... :uhohh:


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## IcemanSK (Mar 30, 2008)

exile said:


> And what we need most of all, Terry, is that new org, oriented to the Kwan-era rough-and-tumble concept of TKD as a fighting art (however updated and technically modifiedI'm talking attitude and viewpoint, not technical content necessarily) that has come up in previous discussions. Not a big, top-down federation, but functioning as a kind of looser organizing framework for dojangs, individual schools which are, and will always be (in fact, if not in name) the place where the quality of the art is maintained (or diluted). Something that works not top-down, or even totally bottom-up, but more back-and-forth.
> 
> 
> I'm hoping that it'll happen in my lifetime... :uhohh:


 
I like the idea, exile. I just don't see a group like that having a large impact on TKD. A small impact in a region, perhaps. But, I do like the idea.


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## Laurentkd (Mar 30, 2008)

matt.m said:


> I am sorry to say, even though I do like both sets and do them daily and different tensions and tempos, (Muscle toning and Physical Therapy).  I am here to tell you that beyond a shadow of a doubt that the I.T.F. Hyungs are much more powerful and intrecant during transitions.
> 
> * Just to prove a point in class a few weeks ago I was doing Do-San.  With my left forearm I broke through 2, inch and a quarter pine.  With the reverse punch I went through 3.  That is just the first movement in the hyung.
> *
> ...




This is a little off topic  but, why would you not be able to do the same thing with Tae Guek Il Jang?


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## exile (Mar 30, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> I like the idea, exile. I just don't see a group like that having a large impact on TKD. A small impact in a region, perhaps. But, I do like the idea.



I agree, Tom, it won't have a big impact... at first at least. I think of it sort of the way microbreweries relate to big outfits such as Budweiser and Coors. When Sierra Nevada and Anchor started pioneering high-quality English bitter ale styles, the major breweries thought it was a big joke; but these days, they're not laughing. Took a while, but apparently there is a huge market for craft beers, and companies like Rogue, Stone and other very good producers faithful to the style are cleaning up on that market. Corporate types tend to talk to each other, mostly, and reinforce each other's preconceptions about what people really want; every so often, though, a little bit of competition makes it clear how much a lot people want something quite different...

I guess what I'm thinking of is that there are a lot of peoplemaybe not vast compared to the ranks of average practitioners who are happy with whatever arrangement and curriculum they're given, but not negligible eitherwho want something a bit 'grittier' in their training, and a bit more combat-based, more _functional_and much less driven by agendas, formulated thousands of miles away, based on nation-state realpolitik. 

Take a look at Brian van Cise's IRT website (the link's in his sig line) for a kind of prototype of a very different way of linking MA practitioners together...


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## terryl965 (Mar 30, 2008)

exile said:


> And what we need most of all, Terry, is that new org, oriented to the Kwan-era rough-and-tumble concept of TKD as a fighting art (however updated and technically modifiedI'm talking attitude and viewpoint, not technical content necessarily) that has come up in previous discussions. Not a big, top-down federation, but functioning as a kind of looser organizing framework for dojangs, individual schools which are, and will always be (in fact, if not in name) the place where the quality of the art is maintained (or diluted). Something that works not top-down, or even totally bottom-up, but more back-and-forth.
> 
> 
> I'm hoping that it'll happen in my lifetime... :uhohh:


 
So what is stopping that from happening? I would certainly would be a part  of this.


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## terryl965 (Mar 30, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> I like the idea, exile. I just don't see a group like that having a large impact on TKD. A small impact in a region, perhaps. But, I do like the idea.


 
Maybe not in the beginning but over time it would, it has to start somewhere and with someone.


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## terryl965 (Mar 30, 2008)

exile said:


> I agree, Tom, it won't have a big impact... at first at least. I think of it sort of the way microbreweries relate to big outfits such as Budweiser and Coors. When Sierra Nevada and Anchor started pioneering high-quality English bitter ale styles, the major breweries thought it was a big joke; but these days, they're not laughing. Took a while, but apparently there is a huge market for craft beers, and companies like Rogue, Stone and other very good producers faithful to the style are cleaning up on that market. Corporate types tend to talk to each other, mostly, and reinforce each other's preconceptions about what people really want; every so often, though, a little bit of competition makes it clear how much a lot people want something quite different...
> 
> I guess what I'm thinking of is that there are a lot of peoplemaybe not vast compared to the ranks of average practitioners who are happy with whatever arrangement and curriculum they're given, but not negligible eitherwho want something a bit 'grittier' in their training, and a bit more combat-based, more _functional_and much less driven by agendas, formulated thousands of miles away, based on nation-state realpolitik.
> 
> Take a look at Brian van Cise's IRT website (the link's in his sig line) for a kind of prototype of a very different way of linking MA practitioners together...


 
Exile we need to talk about this further.


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## exile (Mar 30, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> So what is stopping that from happening? I would certainly would be a part  of this.



I think a kind of critical mass point has to be reached, and then it will happen 'spontaneously' (or so it will appear). We're still in what I think of as the early days of what I _believe_ will be a definite movement of disaffection with the Koran TKD leadership and its impact on this country's approach to the KMAs. People such as those on this board who are unhappy with the way things have worked, are still in the great minority, but what's important is that there is a certain momentum building up that will reach a kind of threshold and bang, all of a sudden there will be a noticeable schism that will bring orgs like the one I'm thinking of into existence. 

But as you know better than just about any of us, Terry, the business survival of an MA school run with integrity and devotion to principles, rather than on marketing tricks, is dicey at best. It's going to be a big leap for school owners, and they're going to want to see that there's a real market to support them if they go this new way...



terryl965 said:


> Exile we need to talk about this further.



We do, and will!


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## terryl965 (Mar 30, 2008)

exile said:


> I think a kind of critical mass point has to be reached, and then it will happen 'spontaneously' (or so it will appear). We're still in what I think of as the early days of what I _believe_ will be a definite movement of disaffection with the Koran TKD leadership and its impact on this country's approach to the KMAs. People such as those on this board who are unhappy with the way things have worked, are still in the great minority, but what's important is that there is a certain momentum building up that will reach a kind of threshold and bang, all of a sudden there will be a noticeable schism that will bring orgs like the one I'm thinking of into existence.
> 
> But as you know better than just about any of us, Terry, the business survival of an MA school run with integrity and devotion to principles, rather than on marketing tricks, is dicey at best. It's going to be a big leap for school owners, and they're going to want to see that there's a real market to support them if they go this new way...
> 
> ...


 
I believe you have hit the nail on the head, Instructor need to make money and would be willing if they could turn a nickel without leaving the intigrity behind.


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## Kacey (Mar 30, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> I would agree that the level of knowledge and proficiency of technique is equal in both organizations.
> However,the ITF was essentially a cult of personality, based primarily on what Choi felt should be taught. When he died, the model for learning stopped.
> The Kukkiwon was continually evolving, since there was no "Founder" or leader who determined what was taught. Yes, GM Uhm was the President, but his power was not absolute. It was not "his" organization.
> Having said that. every organization has its time and era. The ITF and KKW had theirs, as did the ATA. New organizations and ways of thinking will emerge over the next years or decades.



I'm going to backtrack a little, and respond to this post, as I've been really busy and haven't been on for several days.

I agree - the ITF under Gen. Choi was a cult of personality, and the problems that developed because of that are key in the current problems in the various ITF organizations and off-shoots.  The current problem is not that the model for learning stopped - there are plenty of GMs out there who were trained in the ITF, with Gen. Choi, who are continuing that model, who maintain and teach high technical standards.  

The problem, as I see it, is not the instruction - the problem is that too few of them (most, IMHO) failed to learn from the example set by the ITF - that a single person, no matter how dynamic, _cannot_ lead the way Gen. Choi did, because none of them are him.  I know several of the GMs in question, and they lead great organizations - the problems occur when they try to combine their organizations, because they try to remain too much control over how the organization is run, _not_ because of technical issues, but because of administrative issues.  Until that changes, the problems will continue, because it's not a good business model.


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## Ninjamom (Mar 30, 2008)

I'm late joining this conversation, and had to catch up on reading 4 pages.....

I see the KKW in much the same role as a college accreditation board.  The accreditation certifies some level of proficiency of the teachers/professors/instructors, the curriculum, and the testing process, and gives the degree itself more value because of its recognition in the wider community.  In much the same way, my KKW cert. shows that the belt that I have been awarded was earned under at least some standards for curriculum content and proficiency of my instructors/trainers.  If I test for 2nd, 3rd, 4th Dan, the requirements for the certification of my Instructors also increase, much as the requirements are greater to have a Masters/Doctorate program accredited.

A certificate from my instructor, like a college diploma, shows some level of proficiency and accomplishment on my part.  The fact that the college is accredited, or that my belt is certified through the KKW, both show that my instructors/professors ascribed to some set of minimal standards in teaching and curriculum, and by extension, I can be expected to know certain things.  Still, if I am trying to get into law school, most people recognize that a degree from Cornell or Harvard is probably of more value than one from the Community College of Podunk.  In the MAs, I think that translates to the fact that those who have 'been around' know which schools adhere to stricter standards.

In the end, like any education, you will get out of it exactly what you have put into it.  I am sure we have all met degreed professionals that left us wondering how they made it through whatever school they attended, accredited or not.  I suggest that the same problem is bound to happen in Martial Arts, no matter what level, kind, type of certification/accreditation is used.

exile, Terry, others looking for greater oversight and stricter adherence to quality standards, might I suggest that what you are seeking is like starting a professional association, over-and-above the accreditation process?  Just like a law degree doesn't guarantee that you pass the state bar exam, or just like graduating with an EE degree doesn't guarantee life-time membership in the IEEE, getting any MA certification doesn't necessarily guarantee someone will meet the kinds of standards you seek and desire.  Perhaps one approach would be to start a similar association that has requirements of your choosing/liking, in addition to the KKW process, rather than trying to replace the KKW outright.


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## matt.m (Mar 30, 2008)

In the 80's I used to love the 3 pt. and you're out system.  But whatever.  I guess my passion is within the "Art", I could care less about the sport.  Plus, I know I am worthy of my 2nd dan without the USJA cert. saying I am.

I have 20 students that make it to class every Thursday or call if they aren't going to make it.


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## matt.m (Mar 30, 2008)

Laurentkd said:


> This is a little off topic  but, why would you not be able to do the same thing with Tae Guek Il Jang?


 

The higher stances do not allow for the same torso twisting power generation until you really get into Tae Guek 5, which is Sa Jang.  Higher stances = higher center of gravity.  Therefore you wouldn't be able to generate the same amount of power in a walking stance or back stance and you would in deep front stances.  

Very, very good question indeed.  However look at the videos on the www.moosulkwan.com website under Tae Kwon Do.  It will better explain.

You also have to remember I didn't begin Tae Kwon do until I was 30.  I had always AAU, High School, Free Style, and Greco Roman wrestled as well as have some good success in Yudo.  My father taught me hapkido, Moo Sul Kwan style which is all about the front stance and horse stance.  Only deep/wide for power.  Choi, Young Soo taught Hapkido to Won, Kwang Wha who was a congressman's bodyguard.  He was the founder of Moo Sool Kwan Hapkido.  GGM Park, whom taught my father and GGM Hildebrand, both 6th dans in MSK:HKD have not changed the way that Lee taught them.

GGM Park also started in TKD of in Chung Do Kwan and ended with Chang Do Kwan, as he and Nam Suk Lee were very dear friends.

So I have always believed in the lower center of gravity=more power=more stability.

Curious, The KKW came after Choi developed the I.T.F., if you look at the poomsea and hyungs the poomsea look like an easier or copy cat if you will version of the I.T.F. Hyungs.

Also, my last question to you is this "If the I.T.F. Hyungs haven't changed since their inception then why have the W.T.F. poomsea changed several times?  I have heard mention that they are wanting to change them again."


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## matt.m (Mar 30, 2008)

Kacey, could you please answer my question which is post # 27?

Thanks a mint.  Also, I see a lot of the same tune in this thread...it all revolves around validity and legitimacy of the school.  It isn't the KKW's, USJA's, or whoever's fault if the school is not up to par and to police every dojang is an absurd endeavor.

It really comes down to the integrity of the Org. GM as well as the Black Belt instructors.  They are the ones that build black belts and it should always be a 2 way street.  Learn from helping your students and do them better service by teaching ethically with integrity.

More times than not though those words are thrown out into the world of conversation and is like "Yelling in a tornado and expecting someone to hear you."  In other words, a moot point.

I swear to you guys, I visited a TKD school with a few flyers to a tournament we were hosting.  However, there was a night and day difference between what the instructor said and what he actually did.


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## exile (Mar 30, 2008)

Ninjamom said:


> exile, Terry, others looking for greater oversight and stricter adherence to quality standards, might I suggest that *what you are seeking is like starting a professional association, over-and-above the accreditation process?  Just like a law degree doesn't guarantee that you pass the state bar exam, or just like graduating with an EE degree doesn't guarantee life-time membership in the IEEE, *getting any MA certification doesn't necessarily guarantee someone will meet the kinds of standards you seek and desire.  Perhaps one approach would be to start a similar association that has requirements of your choosing/liking, in addition to the KKW process, rather than trying to replace the KKW outright.



This is gonna sound like a dissent from what you're suggesting, Njm, and it is in a way, but it winds up appealing to the idea I've bolded in your post from another angle, so... bear with me, eh? :wink1:

See, my perspective on the whole organization issue, and the KKW, is a bit different from this: I don't actually want more oversight. When I complain about the KKW's oversight failures, it's not because I'm disappointed with their fulfilling their oversight mandate, but rather as evidence that they aren't nearly as important as they (and a lot of people in North America) seem to believe they are, based on their _claims_ to oversight accountability.  They take that tack to gain legitimacy, and I don't want them to be able to claim that legitimacy, because of my real objection to the KKW: I think they have played a major role in driving TKD in the direction that it's followed&#8212;a path which Terry, I and various others feel is detrimental to the maintenance of the practical martial applicability of TKD in self-defense situations. I don't want a (North)American interpretation of TKD to have to be driven by Korea's realpolik, I don't want cherished hyungs to be ditched because of nasty personal rivalries within the Byzantine world of Korean martial sport politics, I don't want the Olympic tournament ideal to be what drives the vision of TKD over the whole bloomin' world. In Korea, for the Koreans... fine, if that's the take they want (and there are plenty of dissenters among Koreans). But I don't want the heavy hand and long shadow of the KKW to fall on dojang curricula as the default. 

I want the individual dojang, the stand-alone _school_, to be the instructional and technical center of TKD, in _this_ neck of the woods, anyway. 

And that's where I think your idea of a professional org has a very natural place. In fact, this is something I brought up long ago here, from my own experience: the PSIA in the US, the CSIA in Canada&#8212;the professional association of downhill ski instructors, and how they organized to distill the most efficient, effective racing techniques into the normal curriculum (where racing corresponds to maximum efficient use of the ski under all normal conditions, kind of like street SD uses of MA). I would really, really like to see this model replace the current one. The crucial point, though: the PSIA certifies instructors technically&#8212;boy, do they ever!&#8212;but the individual school organizes its own syllabus and progression, and specializations. You get technically outstanding instructors from this system, but you get some schools heavy on racing, others on powder, others on bump skiing... the great hills have ski schools that can do it all, but with certain obvious leanings based partly on terrain, partly on owner/Director of Skiing preferences. In a way, it _is_ like electrical engineering...

... but for me the issue isn't oversight, so much as removing the martial sport take on TKD that I believe gets incorporated into the KKW's technical brief.


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## FieldDiscipline (Mar 31, 2008)

matt.m said:


> Curious, The KKW came after Choi developed the I.T.F., if you look at the poomsea and hyungs the poomsea look like an easier or copy cat if you will version of the I.T.F. Hyungs.



I'm not sure I agree with this.  I think the emphasis is very different.



matt.m said:


> Also, my last question to you is this "If the I.T.F. Hyungs haven't changed since their inception then why have the W.T.F. poomsea changed several times?  I have heard mention that they are wanting to change them again."



This is interesting.  The ITF Hyung have been tampered with slightly.  Apart from the elimination from the ITF of the Shotokan kata Choi included in his earlier publication, Juche has also replaced Kodang.  Recently sine wave has been emphasised 

I take your point regarding Taeguk Poomsae, I believe they should have left them be.  This causes great problems IMHO.  I think the changes are again more a change of emphasis towards sport.


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## terryl965 (Mar 31, 2008)

Originally Posted by *matt.m* 

 
_Also, my last question to you is this "If the I.T.F. Hyungs haven't changed since their inception then why have the W.T.F. poomsea changed several times? I have heard mention that they are wanting to change them again."_

_This is my beliefs and is in no way the gospel truth:_

_Since the beginning of the KKW they have been trying to cut all ties and make themself out to be more than anyone else. To do this they needed to change everything until they believe they got it right. We have had alot of people try and get it right and make changes to accomadate thing. But wait there is more they are developing another set so it would go hand to hand with the sport aspect and leave the SD principle out all together._


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## FieldDiscipline (Mar 31, 2008)

Kacey said:


> The problem, as I see it, is not the instruction - the problem is that too few of them (most, IMHO) failed to learn from the example set by the ITF - that a single person, no matter how dynamic, _cannot_ lead the way Gen. Choi did, because none of them are him.  I know several of the GMs in question, and they lead great organizations - *the problems occur when they try to combine their organizations, because they try to remain too much control over how the organization is run, not because of technical issues, but because of administrative issues.  Until that changes, the problems will continue, because it's not a good business model*.



Makes you think eh?  About the ITF and WTF moving closer together.  What a mammoth challenge.


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## exile (Mar 31, 2008)

FieldDiscipline said:


> matt.m said:
> 
> 
> > Also, my last question to you is this "If the I.T.F. Hyungs haven't changed since their inception then why have the W.T.F. poomsea changed several times?  I have heard mention that they are wanting to change them again."
> ...



As Deep Throat told Woodward and Bernstein, _Follow the money_. This is what Rob McLain has posted on the topic of the Palgwes and why they were sidelined... read it and weep:

_They were replaced only two years after their inception in 1972 by the 8 Taek Guek forms because of a Korean Master that attended the KTA Palgue clinics in 1972 and learned these forms during their introduction. He returned to the US and published the first English book on these forms as an attempt to help the KTA and show the world what was created. He even dedicated the book to Kim Um-Yong, KTA President. 

This same Korean Master also published an article on the 1967 version of Koryo hyung in the Karate Illustrated Magazine in 1973. *Because this Master didn't join the KTA(WTF) and instead preserved the old karate and chuan-fa forms from his old kwan, many KTA officials were angry that he was the first to publish and thought he was trying to steal the forms. So, they (KTA/WTF) changed the Gup-level requirements from Palgue 1-8 to the new 1974 forms Tau Guek 1-8 and created a new version of Koryo.*

The first book on Paglue forms in "Palgue 1-2-3 of TaeKwondo Hyung," by Kim Soo. Ohara Publications, 1973.

For years he (Grandmaster Kim Soo) didn't know why they changed the forms, but he was later told by one of his junior friends - who was secretary general of the WTF._​


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## FieldDiscipline (Mar 31, 2008)

Unbelievable.  Wouldnt fit with KMA history otherwise though I suppose!


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## terryl965 (Mar 31, 2008)

exile said:


> As Deep Throat told Woodward and Bernstein, _Follow the money_. This is what Rob McLain has posted on the topic of the Palgwes and why they were sidelined... read it and weep:
> 
> _They were replaced only two years after their inception in 1972 by the 8 Taek Guek forms because of a Korean Master that attended the KTA Palgue clinics in 1972 and learned these forms during their introduction. He returned to the US and published the first English book on these forms as an attempt to help the KTA and show the world what was created. He even dedicated the book to Kim Um-Yong, KTA President. _​
> 
> ...


 
Here lays a problem with the above statement the WTF was not around during the KTA days, they came in right after the Kukkiwon to over see the sport side of TKD so how could this Korean Master  do as to what was said. Now if they said he learned the KTA poomsae's and brought them back and written a book on the new set of poomsae's without bring up the WTF then I would agree. To much BS coming from some where.


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## rmclain (Mar 31, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Here lays a problem with the above statement the WTF was not around during the KTA days, they came in right after the Kukkiwon to over see the sport side of TKD so how could this Korean Master do as to what was said. Now if they said he learned the KTA poomsae's and brought them back and written a book on the new set of poomsae's without bring up the WTF then I would agree. To much BS coming from some where.


 
The KTA introduced these new Palgue forms at special clinics for Masters and instructors held in 1972. The Palgue forms were intended for gup-grade holders of Taekwondo.  I believe Grandmaster Kim still has the original 1972 clinic pamphlets with the Palgue forms instruction from the clinics.  These pamphlets were given to attendees of the clinics.

In 1973 the WTF was founded.  I don't care enough about the WTF or taekwondo to have researched whether the KTA became the WTF, was merged into it, or whatever.  I'll let a TKD historian fill this in.  All I know is the WTF used the Palgue forms for gup-grade holders for awhile and some WTF-related TKD schools still use them (such as Grandmaster Roy Kurban's school in Arlington, Tx). 

-Palgue 1-2-3 of Taekwondo Hyung was published in 1973.  Someone borrowed my copy of this book, but Master Stoker can reference the dedication part (I gave him a copy a few years ago).

In 1974, the WTF introduced the TaeGuek forms as replacements for the Palgue forms, and introduced a replacement Koryo form.

R. McLain


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## terryl965 (Mar 31, 2008)

rmclain said:


> The KTA introduced these new Palgue forms at special clinics for Masters and instructors held in 1972. The Palgue forms were intended for gup-grade holders of Taekwondo. I believe Grandmaster Kim still has the original 1972 clinic pamphlets with the Palgue forms instruction from the clinics. These pamphlets were given to attendees of the clinics.
> 
> In 1973 the WTF was founded. I don't care enough about the WTF or taekwondo to have researched whether the KTA became the WTF, was merged into it, or whatever. I'll let a TKD historian fill this in. All I know is the WTF used the Palgue forms for gup-grade holders for awhile and some WTF-related TKD schools still use them (such as Grandmaster Roy Kurban's school in Arlington, Tx).
> 
> ...


 

Yes GM Kurban still teaches these poomsae's and the dedication in the book
 PALGUE 1.2.3 of Tae Kwon Do Hyung by Kim Pyung Soo

                                    Dedication

To MR Un Yong Kim, President, Korea TaeKwonDo Association

Master McLain I have the book on my desk and me and the family have enjoyed your very generous gift. I also picked up 4.5.6. and a used copied of 7.8 great resource for the older poomsae's. 

Thank you once again


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## Errant108 (Mar 31, 2008)

Any of those books have the 1967 Koryo?


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## Kacey (Mar 31, 2008)

matt.m said:


> Kacey, I pose this question to you.......considering that there are 3 factions calling themselves the "Real" I.T.F. which one do you find most prevelant.



It's hard to say.  Different ITFs are prevalent in different countries - but ITF-Canada seems to be losing ground left and right.  Part of the problem is that more and more groups are becoming independent of _any_ ITF - and the ones who aren't independent are willing to hop groups as it suits them.  Many of the seniors know each other - many of the seniors in the US have known each other for decades and used to work out together, largely (although not exclusively) in the USTF.  Therefore, they are willing to work together, at least on occasion.

The association I belong to is not a member of _any_ ITF, for reasons not relevant to this discussion, although individual members are members of the ITF (Canada) for the purpose of international competition.  And that's okay with me!  For those few who want to compete at that level, membership is mandatory - for the rest... it's the same issue that appears to come up with the Kukkiwon - why pay to join, if you get nothing for your money?  Why pay extra for a certificate signed by people who don't know you?  If you need it for competition - so be it.  If you're not going to compete at that level - why pay?  Until one (or more) of these organizations starts providing value for fees, they are going to continue to have the same problems they have now.


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## rmclain (Apr 1, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> Any of those books have the 1967 Koryo?


 
No, these books only have the Palgue forms.  

But, the 1967 Koryo was featured in an article in the (now) defunct Karate Illustrated magazine in 1969, written by Grandmaster Kim Soo.  I've read that article.  It has photos showing some of the movements in the form.  The article title is something like, "Koryo: One of the new forms from Korea." A copy of that article hangs on the wall at the Chayon-Ryu HQ dojang in Houston.

R. McLain


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## terryl965 (Apr 1, 2008)

rmclain said:


> No, these books only have the Palgue forms.
> 
> But, the 1967 Koryo was featured in an article in the (now) defunct Karate Illustrated magazine in 1969, written by Grandmaster Kim Soo. I've read that article. It has photos showing some of the movements in the form. The article title is something like, "Koryo: One of the new forms from Korea." A copy of that article hangs on the wall at the Chayon-Ryu HQ dojang in Houston.
> 
> R. McLain


 
I believe GM Kurban still teaches the older version and has it down in a booklet for his student maybe a PM to him would bring this form back to life. I know when Zachary compited in the TKL his organization years ago they always had Koryo 1 & 2 being shown there,


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## IcemanSK (Apr 1, 2008)

Here is the original Koryo form.


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## matt.m (Apr 1, 2008)

I believe that Kacey and I have hit the nail on the head.  If you want to compete in the higher shows you have to have the paper that says you can.

In the end it all boils down to what you want personally, if you want it then get it.  If you don't then why bother.  That is why I gave my class the option for U.S.J.A. cert through the gup ranks or not.

Oh and Kacey, food for thought......I know there are 3 divisions that say they are the "Official I.T.F."  It's all politics.  Rightfully I believe it should be the aspect of Choi's son.  However, by human nature a lot of people are indeed greedy.

That is why I stand by the statement that "When it comes down to it, it will always be about the instructor and their class.  Period, end of story."


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## matt.m (Apr 1, 2008)

FieldDiscipline said:


> I'm not sure I agree with this. I think the emphasis is very different.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

I understand you perspective, however if an emphasis is different while using same types of techniques then that makes them different altogether.  Plus, I do understand that some....not all of the original Kwan masters came from Shotokan style.  But when Choi designed the 8 Hyungs the footwork and emphasis of technique is totally different.  So I have seen many a book called "Korean Karate" but I am gonna tell you from 1st hand experience that shotokan and I.T.F. tae kwon do are a million miles apart.  I am referring to one of my Yudo students is also taking tkd.  He has shown enough exampling as well as having his brown to convince me.

I know GGM Hildebrand has stated that his original Gi was the Karate style.  That is ok.  No harm, but that is a minor influence change.

Whereas when you look at the Hyungs vs. the Poomsea, yeah there are similiarites in techniques, even pattern structure.  However, red is red.  If it is a looser form without the same ideas of power then they are no means comparable.  I am not here to be a fanboy of either, I love them both but it just seems that the W.T.F. has done everything it can to align itself more as sport TKD, than traditional.  That is a whole new conversation that would be beating a dead horse imho."


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## rmclain (Apr 1, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I believe GM Kurban still teaches the older version and has it down in a booklet for his student maybe a PM to him would bring this form back to life. I know when Zachary compited in the TKL his organization years ago they always had Koryo 1 & 2 being shown there,


 
Yes, GM Kurban still teaches it as does one of his masters, Mike Johnson, who has his school on Cooper St in Arlington (Texas BB Academy) and instructs the for-credit PE TKD classes at UTA.  He also took over the UTA for-credit Women self-defense classes when I left the university (I was director and instructor for those classes for 2.5 years).

As a side note: GM Kurban sent his black belts to Houston in the late 1960's to learn Koryo (among the other TKD BB forms - Tae Baek, Baek Jae, Jee Tae, etc.) from Grandmaster Kim Soo.  Here is a photo from one of the clinics: http://www.kimsookarate.com/gallery-first30/firstclinic.html

We still learn Koryo, Tae Baek and Jee Tae from the TKD BB list.  But, Grandmaster Kim adjusted the ranks at which students learn those in Chayon-Ryu since they are not really very advanced forms.  In addition to the karate and chuan-fa forms, Koryo is taught at 4th Gup (purple belt), Tae Baek at 3rd Gup Purple belt and Jee Tae is taught at 2nd gup brown belt.  

 R. McLain


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## FieldDiscipline (Apr 1, 2008)

Gen. Choi didnt develop the Chang Hon (ITF) forms himself.  One of the creators was not a student of Shotokan.  Hence any diffferences.

I agree with your observations regarding the Taeguk poomsae, I feel that the ITF hyung do contain more down and dirty real life techniques and that the Taeguks are weakened in this regard with every subsequent tampering.


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## terryl965 (Apr 1, 2008)

rmclain said:


> Yes, GM Kurban still teaches it as does one of his masters, Mike Johnson, who has his school on Cooper St in Arlington (Texas BB Academy) and instructs the for-credit PE TKD classes at UTA. He also took over the UTA for-credit Women self-defense classes when I left the university (I was director and instructor for those classes for 2.5 years).
> 
> As a side note: GM Kurban sent his black belts to Houston in the late 1960's to learn Koryo (among the other TKD BB forms - Tae Baek, Baek Jae, Jee Tae, etc.) from Grandmaster Kim Soo. Here is a photo from one of the clinics: http://www.kimsookarate.com/gallery-first30/firstclinic.html
> 
> ...


 
Very nice picture and Yes I was aware of Mike Johnson since he is only 1/2 mile from me. We have been friends a long time. Glad to see some people are still holding on to the old forms.


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## Kacey (Apr 1, 2008)

matt.m said:


> I believe that Kacey and I have hit the nail on the head.  If you want to compete in the higher shows you have to have the paper that says you can.
> 
> In the end it all boils down to what you want personally, if you want it then get it.  If you don't then why bother.  That is why I gave my class the option for U.S.J.A. cert through the gup ranks or not.



I agree.  My students have the option of ITF certification - but I've never had one want it; nor have they been interested in _my_ ITF certification (through III Dan; we weren't in the ITF when I tested for IV Dan, and I didn't want it - nor could I afford it).



matt.m said:


> Oh and Kacey, food for thought......I know there are 3 divisions that say they are the "Official I.T.F."  It's all politics.  Rightfully I believe it should be the aspect of Choi's son.  However, by human nature a lot of people are indeed greedy.


 
This is a discussion for another thread... and honestly, I've been through this issue too many times, with too many people who are emotionally invested in it, and then try to justify their emotional opinion with after-the-fact logic.  I'm not saying that's you - just that this is an issue I don't really want to discuss any further.



matt.m said:


> That is why I stand by the statement that "When it comes down to it, it will always be about the instructor and their class.  Period, end of story."



Of course it is... anyone who believes otherwise places too much emphasis on lineage and not enough on what's happening _in_ the dojang.


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## zDom (Apr 4, 2008)

What has the kukkiwon done for ME?

Reinforced that I made the right decision in dropping taekwondo and focusing on hapkido.


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## DB1500 (Apr 11, 2008)

After reading this I tend to agree with the fact that for the most part the Kukkiwon has done nothing for most of us exept take our money and send us a certificate that used to mean something but dosnt anymore.  One reason we now go to interschool certificates.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 11, 2008)

Mike Johnson? Roy Kurban?

Good to see some martial artists from the metroplex.

I got my TKD BB from Dr Brax Boyd in Grand Prairie. I was there when Mike Johnson tested for his 5th.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 11, 2008)

DB1500 said:


> After reading this I tend to agree with the fact that for the most part the Kukkiwon has done nothing for most of us exept take our money and send us a certificate that used to mean something but dosnt anymore.  One reason we now go to interschool certificates.




QFT
Large Orgs are money pits.


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## terryl965 (Apr 11, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Mike Johnson? Roy Kurban?
> 
> Good to see some martial artists from the metroplex.
> 
> I got my TKD BB from Dr Brax Boyd in Grand Prairie. I was there when Mike Johnson tested for his 5th.


 
What your was you with Boyd, do you know David Nutt and the Bergman as well?


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## Twin Fist (Apr 11, 2008)

I started with Brax Boyd in 84, came back in 97, was there till 2001

I know Dave Nutt very well, he was my partner when I tested for 1st and I helped him when he tested for 2nd

I know Ben and Cindy and Nicole and Braden Bergman very well. I have been int hier house literally 100's of times. The Bergman's, Sissy and Wilton Wright, Brandi Brinkely, Dave Nutt I and I would all work out on saturdays and then go eat and hang out afterwards.

I still see them every time I go back to Dallas. Did you know Ben got his 5th? Yeah, he is Master Bergman now.  He tested last year just over a year after getting his hip replaced.


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## terryl965 (Apr 11, 2008)

Yes I know that Mr. Bergman got his 5th, I guess you also knew MR. Bussier, and all the others. Mike Johnson school is about two miles from mine we have a great relationship. Was you also part of the old TKL league. You know that league was broke up and GM Kurban has started to bring it back with some new schools. To bad you cannot make it down for the meet and greet with Brian Vancise and 14 Kempo. It is nice to see someone from the same area as me.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 11, 2008)

yes, i competed in the TLK. Won the eagle in 99 for advanced men. Spent 2000 training for my BB test

Never really competed after I made Black. At the time, there wasnt much point in it, the mens division was locked up with the guys from Ivan Lewis' dojo. Plus I was turning 35 that year so the plan was to train hard and be the young guy in the senior men BB division.

In fact, i knew Mr Bussier from the 80's. Along with Gloria Wood. He was a blue I think when I started and she was a 4th Brown I think. When i came back they were both 3rd Dan.

I heard about the TKL ending  and in truth I wasnt surprised. Too many new schools in it, and they all wanted the first date (Mr Boyd's) or the last (Mr Kurban's) as those were the most profitable.

Good to hear that GM Kurba is trying to bring it back.


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## rmclain (Apr 13, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Mike Johnson? Roy Kurban?
> 
> Good to see some martial artists from the metroplex.
> 
> I got my TKD BB from Dr Brax Boyd in Grand Prairie. I was there when Mike Johnson tested for his 5th.


 
I was there for his 5th Dan test as well.  Small world.

R. McLain


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