# Bowing=Brain wash



## J-kid (Aug 12, 2002)

This is not ment to afend anyone just a point i would like to share with everyone.   I think bowing to a picture and to a mat is rather dumb in most cases.  why you bow to the mat i mean its not like  it has a brain and can understand respect. When you bow its almost like you are admitting you are lower then someone . some people call this respect i call it a  form of brain wash just like calling someone master.  BECAUSE The only real master is yourself.   I dont wanna get flamed . and ps bowing to a aponent to start a fight isnt what i was talking about . But what i do believe is bowing over time takes away your ablitiy to chose and all you do is try to apess people higher then you.

   But i do wanna hear what you good people have to say.


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## Danny (Aug 12, 2002)

Bowing shows respect, pure and simple.  I bow to my seniors because I respect their rank, and dedication to their art, even if I don't perticularly respect them as a person.  I bow at the entrance to the dojang because I respect my club.  I bow to the Canadian flag because I respect my country.  I bow to General Choi's picture because I was lucky enought to meet the man on several occasions and deeply respect him, and what he did in his life time.  And finally I return the bow of my students because I respect them.

That's my reasons.


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## J-kid (Aug 12, 2002)

I believe bowing slowly brain washs you in a sedle manner. I mean bowing to a flag a matt .   Isnt it kinda weird if your from the us bowing to a kearon flag.  What dos that have to do with Martial arts . you can still learn how to be respectful with out bowing try learning manors there is a start.   and you dont have to bow that way.


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## Danny (Aug 12, 2002)

I don't bow to the matt.  And I don't bow to the Korean flag in class.  However if it was present I would.  To not do so would be like me sitting with my hat on laughing, and fooling around during The Star Spangled Banner.


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## J-kid (Aug 12, 2002)

Good point but i got one to,  So you proble have lost family in the past(assuming you loved and respected them) now like many familys i have photos of those loved ones do you walk around your house bowing to those photos. i mean if you are bowing to a picture of someone you have never met how about someone that cared about you and you care about why dont you bow to them.    THought so


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## Cthulhu (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *Good point but i got one to,  So you proble have lost family in the past(assuming you loved and respected them) now like many familys i have photos of those loved ones do you walk around your house bowing to those photos. i mean if you are bowing to a picture of someone you have never met how about someone that cared about you and you care about why dont you bow to them.    THought so *



Actually, many Asian cultures revere their dead family members and ancestors, often having shrines to them erected in their homes or nearby.

It would probably be a good idea for you to research these cultures before you start making blanket judgements about their practices.

Cthulhu


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## Bod (Aug 12, 2002)

Wash your brain? Great idea!

(You can probably tell I'm a Buddhist)


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## J-kid (Aug 12, 2002)

Hey just to tell you i am not asian and alot of people in MA are not so dont take anything the wrong way if you are. like i said not meant to afend anyone have a good day.


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## tonbo (Aug 12, 2002)

I can see your point about mats not having any kind of brain to understand respect.  No kidding.  They are inanimate objects, and incapable of thought.  Duh.

However, the bow is used when bowing in and out of a dojo space as a simple sign of respect.  In essence, you can think of it as similar to saluting the flag, or putting your hand over your heart when saying the Pledge of Allegiance, or taking your hat off during any national anthem.  Does a song or a flag recognize your action?  No.  But other people *seeing* you take these actions recognize that you are paying homage to something that you have a belief in.

I don't suggest that bowing is any kind of religious belief.  However, I bow both before going into our dojo and before coming out.  Why?  Because I am demonstrating respect; I am saying a quick "thanks" to the knowledge in general, and to anyone that I might have missed while in class; also to those that have gone before me and made my learning possible.  I also bow to both senior students, instructors, and students who bow to me.  If beginning students see me bowing in and out of class, they understand that this is how we show respect, and they will follow suit.

I don't consider bowing any form of brain washing.  If your school doesn't do it, don't do it.  If your school *does* do it, ask why.  Find out the reason behind it, don't just follow blindly.  Also, if you have personal reasons for not bowing, then discuss those with your instructor.  Above all else, remember the saying: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do"---if you visit a school and see others bowing before entering a room, you might want to do the same, if for nothing more than to pay respect to *their* beliefs.

Just my opinion.  Your mileage may vary.

Peace--


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## fist of fury (Aug 12, 2002)

UFC/MMA= brainwashing

Alot people are brainwashed by different things.


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## Dronak (Aug 12, 2002)

For someone who doesn't want to offend people or get flamed, Judo-kid, you're really not choosing your words properly.  Bowing is not necessarily an admission that you're lower than someone or a submissive act.  It could be, but more often than not it's a simple sign of respect.  Look outside martial arts for a minute -- what about performers (actors, musicians, etc.) who bow to the applauding audience after they're done performing?  Are they lowering themselves and saying they're lower than the audience?  No, it's a sign of respect, they're thanking the audience for being there and supporting them.  Without fans, the performers don't make any sales (tickets, albums, whatever) and they can't make a living from it.  Inside martial arts, a bow still doesn't have to be submissive.  When you bow to your teacher, does he or she bow back to you?  If so, is he/she saying he/she is lower than you, a student in the class?  No, it's a sign of respect again.  Without the students, the teacher has no one to teach and cannot pass on the knowledge of the art.  If there were no students ever, the arts would die out.  I don't know where exactly you're getting the idea that bowing or the use of titles is brainwashing.

I think tonbo made some good points.  If you're so concerned about bowing and your school does it, find out why.  We bow to our teacher when he arrives and when class is over before we all leave.  Why?  To quote the rules handout we were given, it's to "show proper respect . . .  After all, a master has demonstrated to the Grandmaster that he possesses the necessary talent and knowledge to reach this high level.  Shaolin Martial Arts are over 1000 years old and each of the masters carries that history with them wherever they walk."  Just for reference, he also bows to us when we bow to him.  Also as tonbo points out, there's the "when in Rome" idea that you should follow other people's traditions when visiting them as a sign of respect of their beliefs.  It doesn't hurt you to bow when everyone else does and it shows that you respect their beliefs.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 12, 2002)

Hi All,

I bow my Head with others, when in a Church or place or worship even if it is not my faith. Why? So as not to insult, or cause Problems.

I Bow My Head to the Flag of the United States of America, when entering and leaving the Training Area / AKA the mats. 

I bow my head to my Instructor and I also bow back to my Students.

I even nod or bow my head on the street to people I meet.

In ALL of these, I keep my eyes open and aware and on anyone around me. (* Paranoid? Maybe. *) This is not meant as a disrespect, it is meant that yes I have shown simple respect and not Brain Washing. 


Now, if you have ever been on the 'Streets' and come across the wrong person, or been in the wrong part of town, and if not then listen up, you can survive if you pay attention to what is around you, but do not challenge and offer respect.

By this I mean, that if you nod your head, but keep your eyes on the guys walking towards you, he know you have seen him and made eye contact, and acknowledged his presence, without challenge. Do not stare, but keep you head and eyes forward and be aware. This respect can get you back to a 'safe' place.

Now, from your 'tone' of words you have used, I would assume that you never nod your head yes to your instructor or school teachers. For is not nodding your head, but a small bow???? I thought So!! (* See how that last sentence just reaches out at you, and maybe even makes you wish to reach out towards me? Remember this is a written forum and no smiles can been seen. NO body language, so even though you state you do not wish to insult, the 'TONE' of your words can be reviewed, to better make your point sans (French for without) insulting others. *)


Respectfully and to those who care :asian: 

Rich


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## chufeng (Aug 12, 2002)

IMHO...

I bow when entering a dojo/kwoon...or when stepping onto a judo mat to remind myself to be humble and to be open to new instruction...it is a reminder to myself to empty my cup so I can be receptive to new ideas...I prepare for learning and view everyone else on the mat/in the kwoon as a source for knowledge.

I bow to the "memory" of those who preserved the art I practice as a way of saying thanks and, again, to humble myself...it reminds me to be true to the art and to not bring disrespect on it by being boastful or cocky.

I bow to my teacher to show respect and to thank him for sharing the information he has with me...after all, he doesn't have to share it with anybody if he doesn't want to.

I bow to those I train with as a greeting and to thank them for participating in my learning experience (after all, judo is hard to do all by yourself)...

:asian:
chufeng


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## sweeper (Aug 12, 2002)

uhm..  brainwashing is a form of psychological conditioning where something is repeated over and over..  if bowing is brain washing, what is it brain washing you to do? Bow more??


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## Nightingale (Aug 12, 2002)

for me, bowing at the studio entrance is showing appreciation for the knowledge that is taught inside. It is also a reminder for me to leave the problems and stresses of the day at the door and to remember that the "life" stuff outside can stay outside, because its time to train now.

I bow to my instructor out of appreciation for the knowledge he gives me.  It is a reminder to myself that before you can understand something, you have to have an open mind and listen.

I bow to the other students when I'm teaching, or training under the guidance of another instructor, out of appreciation for the things they teach me, often times without realizing it,  and appreciation for their willingness to help me on my martial arts journey.

I bow to my opponent at the beginning of a match to show that I respect them and intend to conduct myself fairly, and expect the same from them.

I bow to my opponent at the end of a match to thank them for the honor of training with them.

I bow to the judges at a tournament to indicate that I will respect their judgement, although sometimes I may not agree with it.  

I bow to black belts because I respect the time and training that went into receiving their rank. It is a reminder to me that I still have much to learn.

Respectfully,

Nightingale

:asian:


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## fanged_seamus (Aug 12, 2002)

Sometimes inanimate objects DESERVE respect -- guns are a prime example.  Treat a gun with anything other than respect, and you or someone else is likely to get shot or hurt.  Just trying to make a point....

From my point of view, the mats soak up my sweat and blood, and that's a crappy job -- so I thank the floor with a simple bow for letting me sweat and bleed on it.

In the studio where I learn, we don't bow to people -- we salute them with a simple hand gesture.  It's our way of saying thanks to those teaching us and acknowledging our training partners.

Respect, to both people and objects, is important -- if you want it, you should give it.


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## J-kid (Aug 12, 2002)

Ididnt think many of you could under stand . that would requir a open mind.  And yes bowing over time makes you like a lap dog.  I have many friends who have been in diffrent martial arts after a year or so they start taking ****, from us there friends. say i didnt agree with one of there points and start calling him stupid , he wont do anything or if i slap him. gos the same for people he dosnt even know.  Another good point is bowing in martial arts is agaist some people religion check this out a real case.  Also this case comes from my gym  .           Think about it

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/54083_judo11.shtml


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## Kirk (Aug 12, 2002)

This is not meant to offend anyone just a point i would like to inquire about with you.  I dont wanna get flamed, I'm really
curious.  

It's typical that MMA'ers come in, spouting the same thing ...
Kata's are useless, MMA is the only effective art, traditions in
MA is pointless, 99.9% of all fights go to through ground, and
so on.  

Is all the rhetoric in a magazine or book somewhere?

When people like yourself come in places like this, where people
(not myself) have DECADES of training, and get so confrontational,
e.g. saying they're brain washed, or don't have an open mind,
etc ... it really doesn't do much for your art and those in it.  

I tell ya .. my contention is that you come here looking for some
kind of validation of your superiority or the superiority or your
art.  Well that seems pointless to me, it's not going to happen.
And if you're not interested in what "traditional" m.a.ists believe,
then why post here?  Why don't you just stick to the grappling,
judo, MMA forums, and get validated by your own kind .. which
seems to be the goal anyways.


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## J-kid (Aug 12, 2002)

I just wanted to see if it was true and people really couldnt open there minds to the views of others.  I never said you guys were wrong about bowing infact i admite that i bow befor fighting show equelship what i did say is it gets really out of hand/

Friend to all
Judo-Kid


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## sweeper (Aug 12, 2002)

uhm..  you havn't presented any evidance that bowing brainwashes you you just stated that your freinds who were in MA over a year were acting brain washed..  I see no direct relation to the act of bowing.


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## J-kid (Aug 12, 2002)

you havent really shown any proof it dosnt all i have heard is.  A bunch of people trying to flame me because of my opoinon .  Is that not brain wash.     like i said this is a freindly form lets not flame each other and P.S. i respect all people as fighters and dont bow./


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## Dronak (Aug 12, 2002)

From dictionary.com:

brainwash -- v 1: persuade completely, often through coercion; "The propaganda brainwashed many people" 2: submit to brainwashing; indoctrinate forcibly 
Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University 

brainwashing -- n.  1. Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs. 
2. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation. 
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. 

So tell us, if bowing = brainwashing, what set of beliefs are people forcibly being indoctrinated into?  What convictions and attitudes are being destroyed and replaced with an alternative?  How is bowing persuasive and coersive?

Look, everyone is entitled to their opinion and opinions can't be judged right or wrong in an absolute sense.  What they can be judged on is how well supported they are.  Many people here have given examples and reasons backing their opinion that bowing is a sign of respect.  I don't think you've really given any support for your opinion that bowing is brainwashing.  You've stated the opinon, but I don't see the reasoning for it.  I think that the main point here is that you should be providing more evidence to back your opinion.  I will agree that things can get out of hand.  I think that court case is an example of things going overboard.


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## fanged_seamus (Aug 12, 2002)

All the posts I read were respectful and gave the personal (or traditional) reasons for bowing to the training floor and other instructors.  What were you looking for, people to agree with your opinion?  

All of us are on these forums to learn to become better martial artists.  When you ask for opinions and they are given, calling the posters "close-minded lap dogs" is a SURE way to draw flames and lose whatever respect we give you for asking the question.

And yes, some religions have strict rules about how they show respect.  Some religions also have strict rules about being peaceful and not fighting.  Some religions require you to dance naked under the moon.  What does it matter?  If the martial art you choose violates your religion -- don't take it!


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## J-kid (Aug 12, 2002)

Only reason i started posting about the flaming.  Is because some people get out of hand pritty fast .  I can see from both view points and there are ecceptions to every rule out there.  so like i said  i didnt mean to afend anyone and i am glad you all told me what you thought .  I like it when poeple show me other veiw points it helps you to see the whole picture.  You can look at this any way you would like its your freedom.

Your friend Judo-Kid


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## sweeper (Aug 12, 2002)

[qoute]you havent really shown any proof it dosnt all i have heard is. A bunch of people trying to flame me because of my opoinon . Is that not brain wash. like i said this is a freindly form lets not flame each other and P.S. i respect all people as fighters and dont bow./[/quote]

I don't think anyone was realy flaming you, simply attacking your position, you gota realise that when you say "bowing=brain wash" you have just said that anyone that bows is or is being brainwashed, now most people would find that offensive. And not it isn't brain wash.

and in regard to your responce to me, you proposed an idea than did not support it, it is not my responsability to suply evidence to the contrary, it is your responsability to support your position. Without support for a statement a statement is simply a statement, not an argument. You can state anything you want, it doesn't make it true and it doesn't give it any credability, you have to support your position if you are in a discusion or there is no validity to a statement. Now I havn't seen any support for your statment so there isn't realy anything to discus. That's also a reason people react hashly to your statements, by simply making a controversial statement and not supporting your position you aren't starting a discusion you are simply making a statement that attacks a position, you arne't gona get a debate out of it you are just gona get people saying "you are wrong" because there is nothing on the table to talk about. it just looks like you want to start a fight...


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## Klondike93 (Aug 12, 2002)

I can't remember, but I think they found for the plaintif (the one being sued), and the person is still required to bow.

And in 28 years I have never thought that bowing was religous or brainwashing in any form. I always looked at as a sign of respect to those that came and trained before me.


:asian:


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## Dronak (Aug 12, 2002)

Yes, IIRC the ruling was that the martial artist can be told to bow before the competitions or whatever exactly it was they were arguing against.  If it wasn't in that article, it was in a similar one someone posted a pointer to either here or on another board.  I've never seen bowing as a problem either.  Obviously some people do though.  I think to some extent it's in your own mind.  If you view the bow as a simple sign of respect, then that's what it is.  If you view it as bowing to a false idol and thus it's against your religion, then that's what it is.  Perhaps to some people they're one and the same, but I make a distinction between the two.


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## Eraser (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




Couldn't have said it better Cthulhu...
I sorry but I do take a bit of offence when you say that bowing to the Dojang, matt, flags is brain washing.. do you have no respect for the originators of the martial arts????  DO you have any idea what they went through just to bring the Arts over to North America??
I also bow for respect for my instructors, and im grateful that they provide a place for me to learn and grow!! I'm sorry if these time hounoured traditions "Brain wash" you.. perhaps with a little more time in the arts you will see why its so important.!!!
Nuff Said:soapbox: 

:asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian:


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## hand2handCombat (Aug 12, 2002)

the context of saying master is not saying he is your slave driver or your commander. like saying Father to a Priest.


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## sweeper (Aug 12, 2002)

I think it's a matter of opinion, I personaly think bowing in most cases is rather pointless, in a fight it's just a salute, it's a way of saying "it's just a game, I'm not gona try to hurt you (bad)". other than that I would bow to respect those who think I should, bowing in any other case I would consider to be a ritual as it doesn't mean anything to me, it may symbolise respect but respect is in your own mind and the bow is simply a physical motion.      Just my opinion   : )


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## Kirk (Aug 12, 2002)

I don't bow to flags of foreign countries.  In EPAK, we're told that
the bow before getting on to the mat is to show respect for 
where the style came from (China and Japan).  That's enough
respect to them for their gift to us.  My only devotion is to the
country in which I was born.  Just my PERSONAL views of MY OWN
patriotism.  I will bow to show respect to anyone else for various
reasons, but the flag is where I draw the line.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *I didn't think many of you could understand . that would require a open mind.  . . .  Think about it *



(* Sorry for the correction of the grammer, spacing and spelling of the quote. *)

Judo-kid,

I ask you, to think about it. Think about how you present yourself here. I understand from your posts you do not wish to offend, nor do you wish to be closed minded, but to be open minded. Yet, with the choice of your words to make the sentences you have written, you have done nothing but be offensive and close minded, In My Humble Opinion.

No one here has called you names, nor have they told you that what you do is wrong. So, how have you been flamed? Other than you assuming, through this written format from the posts here that differ from your point of view, that you have been flamed? 

Think about your posts. Think about how you present yourself and those you represent here and elsewhere. 

Just some helpful hints.

Rich


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *I don't bow to flags of foreign countries.  In EPAK, we're told that
> the bow before getting on to the mat is to show respect for
> ...



Kirk,

I agree and have no problem with you approach.
In our Co-op of a Dojo / training hall, there are four flags. The Stars and Stripes of the U.S.A., the Japanese, Korean and Filipino Flags are also hung on the wall. Even though the art I teach is Filipino, the flag I am showing respect too, is the Star and Stripes of the U.S.A. . This flag is my flag for my country. Just my opinion.

Train well

Rich


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## Matt Stone (Aug 13, 2002)

I think the age of our esteemed colleague bears some consideration...  According to his profile, he is a young 17 year old who is just now taking his first real steps into life _and_ martial arts.

Perhaps we should all contact him in another 17 years and see if his views on things have changed at all...  



> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *I can see from both view points and there are ecceptions to every rule out there.*



And there are some rules that brook no exceptions at all.  Like displays of courtesy and respect.  It is difficult, without words expressing the fact, to display courtesy and respect to another person without some overt gesture.  The bow, the curtsy, clicking of heels, salutes of various sorts, are all gestures which convey a meaning without excessive words.  The meaning can be sincere or superficial, respectful or disrespectful, all by the manner in which it is done.  No words are needed.

Expressions of disdain for what amounts to common courtesy among martial artists worldwide will, in all likelihood, forever run the risk of being perceived as blatant disrespect for the immediate participants, the origins of whatever art you are practicing, and those who have developed and taught the art for ages.




> *so like i said  i didnt mean to afend anyone and i am glad you all told me what you thought .  I like it when poeple show me other veiw points it helps you to see the whole picture.*



It is in this way you can best be educated and incorrect assumptions may be corrected.  Your views are the views of a young man approaching adulthood.  They differ significantly from the views of many who have been practicing MA for _literally_ longer than you have even been alive.  I suspect, with a great degree of accuracy I must admit (especially given that I know that _my_ views have changed over the years, sometimes drastically), that in the fullness of time your views will mature and grow as well.

Good luck in your training.

Gambarimasu.


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## girlychuks (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *Ididnt think many of you could under stand . that would requir a open mind.  And yes bowing over time makes you like a lap dog.  I have many friends who have been in diffrent martial arts after a year or so they start taking ****, from us there friends. say i didnt agree with one of there points and start calling him stupid , he wont do anything or if i slap him. gos the same for people he dosnt even know.  Another good point is bowing in martial arts is agaist some people religion check this out a real case.  Also this case comes from my gym  .           Think about it
> 
> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/54083_judo11.shtml *



You have made no point whatsoever other than to prove you are no friend whatsoever. A friend is someone you love and respect and you would not slap or give sh*t to. 

You are telling us to think like you and that is the opposite of an open mind. I bow because it is required to learn the martial art. And I love martial arts and the friends I make in the dojo. there is nothing closed minded about that.


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## tonbo (Aug 13, 2002)

A visitor to a zen monastary observed a monk bowing to the statues of the buddha that adorned one of the rooms.  The visitor laughed at the monk and said, "Hey, I thought that zen was all about freeing your mind from such things.  My mind is more free than yours, since I don't have to bow to the statues!  I can spit on them, if I want!"  The monk, without missing a bow, replied, "Fine.  You spit.  I'll bow."

Fact is, neither bowing nor not bowing is showing closed-mindedness.  Refusing to accept someone else's reason(s) for what they do is closed-mindedness.

Who cares whether you are wearing gis, saluting, bowing, wearing belts, wearing hats, wearing shoes, etc?  What is important is what you are getting out of your art, and what appeal it has for you.  Like I said before, if you like the tradition, go with it.  If you want something more "new age", go with it.  Spit on the statues or bow to them, they will remain the same.  It is only your perception that has changed.

Judo-Kid, I respect your opinion, but I would caution you not to lead out with "bowing=brainwashing".....it tends to rub folks the wrong way.  Maybe next time ask something like, "Why do we bow?".......

Anyway, arguing over it at all is rather pointless.  We're all going to keep doing what we do anyway, so.....

*bows to all in the discussion*   

 

Peace--


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## KennethKu (Aug 13, 2002)

When I go to my girl's dojang, I'ld  do exactly as instructed, to pay homage to the founder and the origin of the art.  It is a sign of respect. No one does it to pay allegiance or to worship.


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## Matt Stone (Aug 13, 2002)

Bowing, in more traditional arts, is one of the very first things a student learns how to do.  He/she is taught the mechanics of the bow, when it is appropriate, and who receives such courtesy.

Eventually, the student will begin to develop the idea of the bow as a normal part of their behavior.  They will no longer question its use or necessity.

In time, the student will grow into a humble person (so it is thought).  They will realize that humility is one of the greatest strengths a person can have, and that _true_ humility is the source of _real_ courtesy and respect.  The compassion that comes hand in hand with humility is what sparks the growth of courtesy and respect.

Have you ever had a waiter that said "yes, sir," and "no, ma'am," but you could tell that he did it begrudgingly and there was no shred of sincerity in his voice?

Have you ever run into an elderly nun on the street and felt the power of her compassion like waves rolling over you? (and we aren't talking the kinds of samurai nuns that wield steel rulers in church, either!  ) 

There are other examples, but I think the point is made...

The first lesson you learn is how to bow.

One of the last lessons you may fully comprehend is _why_ you bow.

In time, Judo-kid may realize these things.  Or, he may retain a closed mind, influenced only by the teacher that allows such unenlightened interpretations...



> _Taken from the article posted by Judo-kid_
> 
> *John Holm, the Akiyamas' stepfather and judo coach, has said the Akiyamas' mother, Mariko, is a Buddhist and doesn't want her children to be forced to practice the rituals of Shinto, an ancient Japanese religion.*



It appears that the mother is Japanese or at least of Japanese descent.  I have lived here in Japan for 4 years, and bowing is one of the most common, daily, non-religious acts you will see...  Just like the tipping of a hat or shaking hands has been in the US in the past.  That strikes a blow at the credibility of the claim that it is a "religious act."

Additionally, if you ask most Japanese what religion they are, they will frown and be at a complete loss to identify what particular religious tradition they follow.  Buddhist *and* Shinto traditions are so intertwined as to be nearly indistinguishable...  And many traditions are no longer understood, whatever their origins!  The only thing I could see is that the mother is a devout Buddhist bordering on zealotry, whose extreme view could have caused such a belief to exist in the first place.  Or not.  Perhaps it was the father/coach whose own skewed understanding of Japanese traditions and religious practices caused him to chafe at the idea of his children being subjected to such requirements.  Or not.  Perhaps he was just looking to make a name for himself and his kids for whatever reason.  Or not...

Bottom line, there are many reasons for bowing in MA.  Few, if any, have anything to do with religion, directly or indirectly.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:


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## Baoquan (Aug 13, 2002)

I think perhaps a brief explanation of my nick - *Baoquan* -  is appropriate here. I'm sure a lot of you are already familiar, but in the interests of Judo-kid's continuing education; 



> *posted on http://infinite.org/library/pages/SBMAC1.6-268.html*
> 
> The most commonly seen etiquette is the so-called baoquan which is usually used to say hello, bid farewell or express gratitude in the wushu communities. The name comes from such a gesture that a fist formed by the right hand is held by the left palm with thumb bent and other fingers drawing together, and in the meantime, both arms are bent to form a circle. There are quite different interpretations of the meaning of this etiquette. A widely accepted explanation is that to extend four fingers indicates all martial arts in the world are of the same line, to bend thumb means that you are modest, to put a fist in a cupped palm expresses the hope that you are willing to make friends through martial practice and to form a circle with arms shows that all martial artists on earth are of one family.
> 
> Of course, there are some other explanations for this etiquette. The following is among them. To straighten four fingers of the left hand is a Buddhist rite meaning willingness to practice charity and accumulate virtue. To cover the right fist with the left palm expresses the desire of oppressing the evil with the good and getting rid of brutal force with etiquette.



Judo-kid, welcome to the martial arts. I hope you continue in the tradition we all share, and i look  forward to continuing this discussion when you have the knowledge and experience found in the members of this board.

Cheers

Baoquan.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> 
> *A visitor to a zen monastary observed a monk bowing to the statues of the buddha that adorned one of the rooms.  The visitor laughed at the monk and said, "Hey, I thought that zen was all about freeing your mind from such things.  My mind is more free than yours, since I don't have to bow to the statues!  I can spit on them, if I want!"  The monk, without missing a bow, replied, "Fine.  You spit.  I'll bow."
> 
> ...


To all,

In some of the hot and dry climates in the history of this world, it was considered a great honor when some one was to spit. It meant they gave up some of their 'water' to the environment in your respect.

In the 'Western Hemisphere' today, to Spit is to be insulted.

The point of view many times if not always determines the meaning and value of an action.

Open your mind to allow for others to be different. Particularly those that are different from you. Yet, if you are approaching someone to have them teach you, then you should respect their ways and methods.

Just my opinions

Rich


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## Matt Stone (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> 
> *The point of view many times if not always determines the meaning and value of an action.*



This is very true...  My bow may be interpreted by someone else in a completely incorrect manner...  And I think the point remains that while its meaning to _them_ may be different from its meaning to _me_, the only way that is fixed is by educated one's self rather than relying on what we think we know...



> *Open your mind to allow for others to be different. Particularly those that are different from you.*



Sure.  Let everyone be themselves.  Individual expression is to be protected and held inviolate.  However, an issue that bears discussion would be about the  tolerance of the beliefs of others as opposed to the adherence to your own beliefs as gospel...



> *Yet, if you are approaching someone to have them teach you, then you should respect their ways and methods.*



And this says it all...  If the children in that court case, their father and their mother, and Judo-kid as well, all feel that participation in an endeavor that includes objectionable content is against their beliefs in some fashion, then they should endeavor _not_ to participate!  If bowing is something they don't believe in, fine.  Don't do asian martial arts.  Do something else.  But jumping in, saying that they want to do only this part or that part of a particular activity, and expecting all other participants to cater to their wishes and subordinate their own beliefs in order to suit the others, is arrogant in the extreme.

Judo, and all other Japanese martial arts, as well as most other martial arts that have origins in the far east, include bowing.  Don't want to bow, find a new art.  Just that simple...

Or bow.

Two choices, both are theirs...  *I* bow, and I don't sweat the little stuff (once I know why it is there and what it is for...).

Gambarimasu.

:asian:


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## Shinzu (Aug 13, 2002)

a sign of respect and courtesy.  i bow to the flags (korean and american) to show respect for where my art comes from and the country i practice it in.

i bow when entering and leaving the mat to show respect for those that have come before me.

i bow to members of my class as a sign of martial respect.

i dont believe that it is lowering yourself.  my instructors also bow to me (sometimes first).  it is a simple gesture and tradition.  please dont read and analyize it to the extent that you are feeling looked down upon.

then again if you are feeling this way, perhaps you need to look inside yourself for the true answer and stop blaming traditions.


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## sweeper (Aug 13, 2002)

well personaly I don't think it should be nessisaray to bow in competition, you will get treated like $%^& for it by the judges but I don't see why bowing should be a part of competition, I don;t see tournaments as a part of the art realy but rather a paralel sport. And that particular school is a sport school. The coach has alot of reasons for not bowing, he has alot of things against more traditional schools and he is very knowledgeable in judo and is a good teacher.


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## Matt Stone (Aug 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by sweeper _
> 
> *well personaly I don't think it should be nessisaray to bow in competition, you will get treated like $%^& for it by the judges*



How so?  I have judged and been judged, and have never been discriminated _against_ for _not_ bowing...  I have deducted points from people that _didn't_ bow, however...



> *but I don't see why bowing should be a part of competition, I don;t see tournaments as a part of the art realy but rather a paralel sport.*



A parallel sport based on...?  On the arts that compete in the sport!  So, if it is part and parcel of the base traditions, then it should also have a place in the competition.  Competition isn't just about who can score more points, or who does their forms the flashiest...  It is also very much about how you go about presenting yourself and how you represent what you do.  Doing so in a cocky, arrogant, insulting manner should be penalized, as it goes against one of the most well known tenets of martial training - developing one's character.  



> *And that particular school is a sport school.*



And Judo is a sport art.  Does that somehow invalidate all the things that are considered to be adjunctive training goals of its practice?  Judo was created, not in order to create a combat art capable of slaughtering one's foes, but to preserve the character development that is capable _only_ through _budo_ training...  Part of that character development is humility.



> *The coach has alot of reasons for not bowing,*



None of which have a) been described, or b) have any real bearing on the issue at hand...  If he practices Judo, then he bows.  If he teaches Judo, then he can take bowing out of his curriculum - until it is competition time.

His contention that they are religiously offensive makes as much sense as saying that God has a restriction against shaking hands...  And given, as I stated previously, that his wife appears to be of Japanese descent, his further contention that bowing is offensive makes me question the validity of his alleged feelings on this issue - I am more inclined to believe he is doing this to make a name for himself, to claim his "fifteen minutes" as it were.



> *he has alot of things against more traditional schools*



Like what?  Just curious...  All I have heard is what was posted in the news article.



> *and he is very knowledgeable in judo and is a good teacher. *



I don't believe any of this was disputed.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:


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## sweeper (Aug 14, 2002)

first, my previous post wasn't intended to be a responce to anything just to add what little I know about the instructor and gym to the discusion so not all of what I said has any bearing on the discusion. Additionaly I did not clarify what I meant by sport, I was reffering to it being olympic style judo.



> How so? I have judged and been judged, and have never been discriminated against for not bowing... I have deducted points from people that didn't bow, however...[/qoute]
> It's just my observation, the coach isn't liked and neither are his students all kinds of "mistakes" happen in tournaments they go to and they only seem to happen to them. Since most of the competitions are video taped it's pritty obvious that the judges side against them (unfairly). For example not calling a pin (either for or against) a fighter after the given amount of time you can be on the ground elapses, not giving a point for a take down, mismatching weight classes in match ups, etc..
> 
> 
> ...


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## Seig (Aug 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fist of fury _
> 
> *UFC/MMA= brainwashing
> 
> Alot people are brainwashed by different things. *


Hey! MMA is the NickName for my school!  Mountaineer Martial Arts!  Hmph!  I do not brain wash people!:rofl:


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## Seig (Aug 14, 2002)

In my studio, I usually do not use the term bow.  I call it showing courtesy.  As several have pointed it out, it shows respect, it also shows trust.:asian:


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## J-kid (Aug 14, 2002)

Err tryed [post]  a three part thing on brain washing that a photo copyed in was way way to big so i gotta get a web [page and then put the link here lots of work ahead.].  Hope you injoy.
Your Friend Judo-Kid


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## Bod (Aug 14, 2002)

Judo-kid he say:



> say i didnt agree with one of there points and start calling him stupid , he wont do anything or if i slap him.



Then don't slap him, bow at him and he'll bow back.

If you don't bow, especially in Judo, then you aren't training or playing, you are fighting. It is that sort of sport.

Judo is a sport and it is arguably only a sport. Just like boxing, totally useless in self defence unless you are a doorman, in law-enforcement or the armed forces.

But even if Judo is no good for self-defence (yeah, right!) then it doesn't bother me, because everybody at my dojo does it for the fun of it. Which is why we don't call each other idiots, slap each other, because we are having fun.


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## J-kid (Aug 14, 2002)

I stated that my friend gets punked plan and simple .  Just because he lets people walk all over him.


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## lvwhitebir (Aug 14, 2002)

Ok, I'll jump in on this too.  

Just because someone doesn't beat the pulp out of you for slapping him or "letting people walk all over him" doesn't mean he's brainwashed or that he's an idiot.  It means he's growing up and learning that you don't solve problems by fighting everyone.  He's learning respect for other people and their opinions; he's showing some humility.

Learning the martial arts doesn't mean you go out and crack skulls.  In case you haven't figured it out yet, it's about learning how to control yourself.  "Live by the sword, die by the sword."

By the way, most (if not all) oriental countries use the bow in much the same way we use a handshake.  

   WhiteBirch


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## tonbo (Aug 14, 2002)

You mean learning MA really *isn't* about just kicking a** and taking names?   So *that's* what I've been doing wrong.....

J/K.   

Not only do the Japanese use the bow like we use a handshake, but, from what I understand, they also have varying levels of bow, depending on the formality of the situation.  To show more respect, or greater deference, you bow lower.

I could be wrong on that, but I could swear that I read this somewhere.

Anyway, a lot of good points were made here in the forum on this issue.  I would add in the additional comment that it never hurts to show a little respect to those you interact with.  If they choose not to accept or live up to that respect, well, that's THEIR problem.  I always start off with assuming that someone deserves respect, and figure that if they don't deserve the respect, they will prove it through their actions.

Just one way of doing things.....

Peace--


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## Eraser (Aug 14, 2002)

Hey there..
Tonbo.. i believe your right with level of the bow showing different levels of respect.. 
IN our MA.. we don't even look at the person we are bowing to  (some MA have you look at the person even as you are bowing)
We give complete trust and respect to the person we are bowing to.. but that's just at my school.. I can be different from MA to MA..

that's all..


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## Matt Stone (Aug 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> 
> *Not only do the Japanese use the bow like we use a handshake, but, from what I understand, they also have varying levels of bow, depending on the formality of the situation.  To show more respect, or greater deference, you bow lower.*



There are different bows for different occasions, standing bows, seated bows, kneeling bows...  And yet again, very few of them have any religious connotation.



> *Anyway, a lot of good points were made here in the forum on this issue.  I would add in the additional comment that it never hurts to show a little respect to those you interact with.  If they choose not to accept or live up to that respect, well, that's THEIR problem.  I always start off with assuming that someone deserves respect, and figure that if they don't deserve the respect, they will prove it through their actions.*



Confucius (Kung Fu-tze) was known to have commented that "Respect to one's superior is Duty; respect to one's peers is Honor; respect to one's inferiors/subordinates is Nobility."

Showing respect to those who would seem undeserving of it only elevates the person demonstrating such humility even higher...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:


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## tonbo (Aug 15, 2002)

Eraser, Yiliquan--thanks!!

I was pretty sure that I had my facts somewhat straight, but, as I am not an expert in eastern cultures, I couldn't be positive.

Yiliquan, thank you for the brief writeup.  That is some very good information to know, and I didn't remember the Confucius saying!!

:asian:   (bowing the appropriate level and angle for Martial Talk)

Peace--


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## Matt Stone (Aug 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> 
> *:asian:   (bowing the appropriate level and angle for Martial Talk)
> 
> Peace-- *



right back at ya!

:asian:  (also bowing the appropriate level and angle to express humorous appreciation for tonbo's post)


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## Yari (Aug 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> * I think bowing to a picture and to a mat is rather dumb in most cases........i call it a  form of brain wash just like calling someone master.
> *
> ...



Only if you bow  

I know I'm coming in late in this discussion, but I just couldn't help myself.

You state that bowing to something that isn't deamed greater than yourself doesn't need respect. 

I say that without the world, with everthing in it, YOU wouldn't exsist. That makes me give big respect for everthing else than me, but if it doesn't for you it's up to you, and OK for me.


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## tonbo (Aug 16, 2002)

> You state that bowing to something that isn't deamed greater than yourself doesn't need respect.



"Something that isn't deemed greater than yourself"......hmmm....okay.....well......consider the following:

Anyone you step on the mat with, either for training or fighting purposes, has the *potential* to kill you.

Would you consider that worthy of respect?  Read the "locker room" threads....people have died at competitions from being kicked in the head.  Accidents happen.  I once launched a spinning back kick on my opponent at the same time they tried to duck--caught 'em right in the throat.  Luckily, he was far enough back that it just left him gasping for a few seconds, and no major damage.   A few inches in more, and he might not have gone home that night.

I'd say that showing respect to something that has the power and potential to kill you could be a wise thing.  Not that anyone *would* try to kill you during training--these are not dangerous times in class--but again, it *could* happen.

Just a thought.  Remember:  you may be big and bad, tough as nails, or even just a legend in your own mind......but you are human, mortal, and just as vulnerable as anyone else.

:asian: 

Peace--


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## Yari (Aug 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Yes, I would respect him. That doesn't mean that I will handle him the same way I treat my girlfriend, or maybe it does :rofl: 

/Yari


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## tonbo (Aug 16, 2002)

ROFLMAO

Okay, you got me...:shrug: 

I can't even come up with a good response on that.....but I'll just stand a little farther away, if ya don't mind.  Nothing personal, you understand.... 

Peace--


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## sweeper (Aug 16, 2002)

alot of things have the power to kill ou..  it's not a big deal..  every person you see in a car has that power, ever play any sports? well you're probably risking your life ( think it was posted on this board that the most common cause of death in most field sports is a broken shin) stepping into the ring is relativly safe compared to other dangers..  even the food you eat could kill you if prepared improperly..  does that mean you should respect it? Well I think you should be aware of danger in order to minimise it, but I doubt most people realy take time to respect how fragile human beings realy are (wether they should or shouldn't).


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## Yari (Aug 17, 2002)

Mayby it's time to define respect

For me it's the ack. of what it/who it is, and the potential of what it is/who it is, and not thinking that it /person is greater nor lesser than me.

Food I respect  in the sense that it gives me the energy I need. But I also understand that ever green plant has a function so the plant that I eat can give me it's life.

People I respect for being humanbeings, not nessarly for what they say or do or stand for.  For that I would have to meet them or seen them act.

/Yari


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## tonbo (Aug 17, 2002)

Yes, many things have the power to kill you.  No doubt.  Being alive means that you risk death every day.  You can breathe bad air, suffocate, get hit by a car, have a tree fall on you, get bitten by a poisonous snake, blah, blah, blah.

Yes, I *do* think that you should respect these things.  But I would have to fine-tune what I mean by respect.

In terms of people, I would intend it to mean that you acknowledge the fact that your opponent has *some* degree of skill or ability--even if they are not top of the heap.  Pay some amount of homage to the fact that they, too, have been alive for some time, and they have learned things, had experiences, and built their own little "treasure pile" in life--they have things that they can teach you, one way or another.  Every man/woman can teach you something, somehow.  That, in my opinion, is worthy of even a nod of respect.

For animals and nature, I think respect means just the simple awareness of their life as well.  If you know there are poisonous animals around, don't go running into where they hang out.  Give them room and don't poke at 'em, and you won't get bitten.

Cars and stuff like that, same thing.  Don't run out in front of them, don't do stupid dangerous things.  Respect means just being aware of how to be *smart* when dealing with them.

This is just a brief overview; hope it makes some sense.  No, I don't think you need to bow to cars or snakes, or stuff like that.  However, I don't think you need to be stupid in dealing with them, either.

Okay, I'll stop rambling before I go too far...

Peace--


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## sweeper (Aug 17, 2002)

rambaling is what makes these threds fun 

well as to experience, if I were to be consistant with that I would be bowing to most of my freinds, all of my relatives and probably quite a few more.

And as to the other situations, you can't control where a drunk driver will be and when, you can't prevent your food in a restaurant from being under cooked and getting food poisoning andd you can't predict when someone's gona slide tackle with their cleats up.

the question I would have is what is so diffrent about an individual that practices martial arts that a physical action should be proformed to demonstrate respect?


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## Yari (Aug 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by sweeper _
> 
> *the question I would have is what is so diffrent about an individual that practices martial arts that a physical action should be proformed to demonstrate respect? *



It's a matter of your "style".  The bowing is very visible way of respect. Language is another. There are more subbel ways. But respect is always shown.

If we can agree on the term " respect (or disrespect) is always shown", we can then move on to the "why that way". The respect in bowing is to show that you don't think that your better.
If you think you are better, in one way or the other, your ego is showing and that will hinder you in seeing things as they are., and getting the best out of the situation. 

It's different than the bigger ego = more respect you see in the western hemisphere. Were people get so full of themselfs that they can't see what really is happening around them.

Back to the styl, you don't have to bow to show respect. It can be done anyway, but probably the best way so other people understand it. There's no use giving the middel finger as a sign of respect if people are of another understanding.

/Yari


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## H@pkid0ist (Aug 19, 2002)

Let me put it all very simply. All the traditional aspects of training, to include bowing are ment to help build a persons character. How you do things is up to you, you have to decide what kind of person you want to be, and learning the aspects of the arts that are more than just the fighting go a long way in teaching a person about respect, honor, dignity, and having pride V/S being prideful.


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## 7starmantis (Aug 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by H@pkid0ist _
> 
> *Let me put it all very simply. All the traditional aspects of training, to include bowing are ment to help build a persons character. How you do things is up to you, you have to decide what kind of person you want to be, and learning the aspects of the arts that are more than just the fighting go a long way in teaching a person about respect, honor, dignity, and having pride V/S being prideful. *



I couldn't agree more! If you are having trouble with a bow, then maybe you are not grasping the totality of martial arts.


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## sweeper (Aug 19, 2002)

exactly yari, respect is comon in most any sport, boxing you touch gloves, most field sports you shake hands, fencing there are salutes, same with kali. everyone's got their ritual.

My point was just that just because someone doesn't bow doesn't mean they are disrespectfull.


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## Matt Stone (Aug 19, 2002)

I think it is important to remember that martial arts, especially in today's modern world, are not wholly about learning to fight.  The lessons that are taught are intended, in many ways at many levels, to develop the student into a complete person with insight and skills that are borne out of the crucible of combative training.

The entire purpose behind the development of the _do_ arts out of the _jutsu_ arts in Japan was because the "powers that be" realized that despite the ban imposed by the Occupation Forces after WWII on the practice of martial arts of a combative nature, benefits were still to be had from learning martial arts whose "teeth" had been removed.  Foremost among these were judo and kendo, whose beliefs, theories and training environments promoted the development of respectful behavior, keen insight, understanding of timing and strategy, etc.

I remember once reading a quote attributed to Jigaro Kano that gave additional description on the importance of the bow...  Something to the effect that the bow meant "that the practice we are about to engage in is to our mutual benefit, that I mean no disrespect or injury to you, and that my apologies are implied when you are thrown."

As stated by sweeper, there are ritual demosntrations of respect in every combative art - the training is not solely about who becomes the better fighter, but also about how the fight is conducted...  Even boxers, who many people hold to be uneducated brawlers (I know _I_ did until I made friends with a boxer, learned about boxing and realized the depth of information contained in boxing gyms), hold respect to be an important consideration in their sport, and a disrespectful boxer is one that is fresh out of friends in the gym...

Those who refuse to bow, touch gloves, salute with their weapons of choice - these are the brawlers and street thugs.  Those who understand the importance of respect and honor - these are those who walk the warrior's path.

Just my over the top 2 yen.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 20, 2002)

Judo-kid, 

Interesting question.

I have observed various MA groups in the US and noticed on occasions that they try to emulate Japanese or Asian customs and in some cases do very strange things.
I observed one dojo running around yelling "Osuuu" every other word is one example. 
It is not used that way or in the manner in Japan.........the country and manners they are trying to incorporate into their training. 
I think the classic example of "Asian mode over kill" is in Karate Kid 1 in the bad guys dojo where everyone is jumping to their feet and screaming like it was boot camp or something. Never seen it in an Asian dojo.

As for bowing:

Bowing serves several practical purposes.

One it "signals" the beginning or end of something.............class, sparring, etc. 
It also serves as a silent greeting when entering the dojo. By bowing silently you acknowledge others that are training with out disturbing them.

Oddly in Okinawan dojo's their tends to be less formality than in Japanese dojos.


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## Yari (Aug 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *I observed one dojo running around yelling "Osuuu" every other word is one example.  *



I have a friend you has studied the japanese langueage, and MA . He told me that this is a misconception. "Osuu" is short for 'something I cann't pronounce' that means 'good evening'. So when people (westerns) run around screaming "Osuu" there yelling good evening. Now if they mean it because there going to put out somebodys lights I don't know.......


/Yari


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yari _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




I was told it is short for *O*haiyogozaima*su*...............don't know for sure since I have heard several other variations on the definition.
Japanese will say Ohaiyogozaimasu in seemingly odd situations............for example when they first meet someone at work no matter if it is 8AM or 8PM. Weird uh...........
I do know that about 99% of the westerners I have seen use it do so incorrectly. 
It is also said to be a rather vulgar way of greeting someone. Which is why I never use it.


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## Yari (Aug 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Yeps, was the word I was thinking about. I've also heard that the 'masu' on the end was a polite ending. Making it very polite.
Go figur? I'll ask my friend.

/Yari


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yari _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




-masu does make it polite.

If you are extremely close to someone you can just use Ohaiyo- 
Not really used towards folks in a higher position than yourself though.
Osu it would seem is several notches below this on the "polite scale".


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## Matt Stone (Aug 20, 2002)

RyuShiKan's explanations are correct...  Though he speaks _way_ more Japanese than I do, this is one thing I have done a little research on in my never ending quest for details...

The *O*hayogozaima*su* explanation seems to be the correct one.  It is also said that the term is _highly_ vulgar, akin to going about saying "yo, whassup" to everyone and their brother, regardless of occasion, although (as with many things Japanese) there is really no accurate direct translation...

The term _osu_ is used in the Japanese Ground Self Defense Forces (haven't worked with the Air or Maritime SDF, so I can't comment on them) as a general catch-all greeting, similar to the use of "hooah" in the Army.

Bottom line, the use of _osu_ in the US makes American karateka look like buffoons to many of their overseas counterparts that know better...  It is just that in some occassions, their Japanese hosts are too polite to correct the mistakes of their guests (thereby causing them further embarassment).

I doubt it will ever stop, though, no matter how much folks who know better try to correct those that don't...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> It's typical that MMA'ers come in, spouting the same thing ...
> ...



I think he has a legit issue here. 
It is rather odd to bow to another country's flag or a photo of someone if it is not part of your own culture.
Tell ya what, I would rather have someone like him in my dojo who actually stops and says "Hey what are we doing this for?" than the usual "monkey see monkey do" types that never wonder about anything.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *I tell ya .. my contention is that you come here looking for some
> kind of validation of your superiority or the superiority or your
> ...



Well if he went to a MMA thread he wouldn't get to many different opinions now would he..........
I would imagine that since this is a traditional MA thread this would be the place to bring up such a topic.
(BTW, Judoka bow as well) 
It's a good thing we have such an "impartial" moderator such as yourself on the job to keep us in line too.


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *
> Bottom line, the use of osu in the US makes American karateka look like buffoons to many of their overseas counterparts that know better...  It is just that in some occassions, their Japanese hosts are too polite to correct the mistakes of their guests (thereby causing them further embarassment). *



Maybe the best way might be if you don't fully know the nuance of the word you are saying you shouldn't say it. 
Your right the Japanese will rarely if ever correct your Japanese too by the way.
As an example I used a word for years incorrectly only to find out one day by accident that I had been making a mistake.
I used the word "mofuku" for blanket................when actually what I should have said was "mofu".
Mofuku means the special funeral clothes that Japanese wear when someone dies. 
So for years I sounded like I was going out of my head saying "mofuku" and my wife, her parents as other Japanese never said a word. 
It was actually my son that corrected me saying "Mofuku??? Dad what the hell are you going on about......nobody died."


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *I think he has a legit issue here.
> It is rather odd to bow to another country's flag or a photo of someone if it is not part of your own culture.
> Tell ya what, I would rather have someone like him in my dojo who actually stops and says "Hey what are we doing this for?" than the usual "monkey see monkey do" types that never wonder about anything.*



I agree.  I think one learns better when one is allowed to ask questions and gets answers.  Real answers, not the "cuz we do" that happens alot. Take any form, technique, etc and ask a ton of questions on why you are doing something a certain way.  You often learn something new when your dealing with an experienced instructor.




> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *It's a good thing we have such an "impartial" moderator such as yourself on the job to keep us in line too.  *



Mods are allowed their own opinions. When they are speaking as mods they are required to indicate it.

:asian:


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## chufeng (Aug 21, 2002)

It is the student's questions that actually sharpen the instructor's own knowledge base...perhaps the instructor never really thought about a particular aspect of a given movement or, in this case, custom...

The students typically have one primary instructor from which they learn...the instuctor, however, has any number of students to learn from, provided he/she doesn't allow ego to interfere with that potential for learning...a lot of folks use "tradition" as a means to avoid answering questions.

:asian:
chufeng


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> 
> *It is the student's questions that actually sharpen the instructor's own knowledge base...perhaps the instructor never really thought about a particular aspect of a given movement or, in this case, custom...
> 
> ...





Well said.
I have learned a lot from my students simply because they think of and ask questions that I don't think of.


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## fist of fury (Aug 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *
> It's a good thing we have such an "impartial" moderator such as yourself on the job to keep us in line too.  *



Mod's are allowed to have thier own opinions, kirk's not the only mod to voice his opinion. Why does his opinion bother you more than the other mod's opinions?


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fist of fury _
> 
> *
> 
> Mod's are allowed to have thier own opinions, kirk's not the only mod to voice his opinion. Why does his opinion bother you more than the other mod's opinions? *




Never said they shouldn't have an opinion but I think moderators of all the people posting should be more conscious of what and how they write since they are supposedly the "control factor" for threads. 
A good example is Arnisador who tends to express his opinion when he is not moderating in a non-confrontational way that doesn't lead to flame wars and so on.

Don't you think it is kind of a contradiction to have a moderator that posts inflammatory type remarks...........the kind they are supposed to be moderating against............

Kirks posts have lead to several flame wars...........something he actually got suspended for wasn't it??????





Now let's get back on topic..............


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## Kirk (Aug 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *
> Kirks posts have lead to several flame wars. *



Hello Pot?  This is the Kettle!  You're black!


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> Hello Pot?  This is the Kettle!  You're black! *




The only MAJOR difference is your a moderator that is supposed to be keep flame wars and such down to a minimum..........and yet you are one of the biggest flame starters here..............hell i think I will start calling you "sparky". :rofl: 

Kirk you set a great example of what a moderator should be (sic)


If you want have an arguement with me about this take it to PM or email............but don't screw up this guys thread.


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## Kirk (Aug 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



First of all, there was ONE flame war, where as you've incited 
multiple.  Things can get out of hand at times, we're all human.


It's obvious you have a problem with me, and the way this 
board is run.   Why don't you just do you own thing and keep
me out of it?  I feel sorry for your students.


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Just one..........yeah right..........

Like I said .............you want to discuss this take it to PM or email........


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## Kirk (Aug 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



No thanks .. I'm not interested in an insult war.  I don't think it'd
stop your compulsion with me one bit.  

What style of m.a. do you study?  I might hafta take it up, you're
a teacher in it, and so confrontational, unlike what I've been told
most Japanese styles are.


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



That's obvious by your posts below.




> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *What style of m.a. do you study?  I might hafta take it up, you're
> a teacher in it, and so confrontational, unlike what I've been told
> most Japanese styles are. *






> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *I feel sorry for your students. *


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *I believe bowing slowly brain washs you in a sedle manner. I mean bowing to a flag a matt .   Isnt it kinda weird if your from the us bowing to a kearon flag.  What dos that have to do with Martial arts . *




I don't know how bowing to another countries flag is in anyway connected to a martial art.........in fact I too find it rather odd. 
But as far as bowing to photos of past teachers I can understand that. You are showing respect for their training and hard work they put forth so you could be studying their art today and they are worthy of respect for that. 





> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *.............you can still learn how to be respectful with out bowing try learning manors there is a start.   and you dont have to bow that way. *



 I think too much emphasis is put on bowing and not enough emphasis is spent on manners and respect and where and how it should be applied.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 21, 2002)

Kirk, Robert - If either of you wish to continue your 'disagreement', take it to email or PM or let it drop.  Enough is enough. No smart *** comments, etc.  Just go back to the topic.

Everyone else - please ignore the incendary comments and focus on the main thread.

Thank you.


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## J-kid (Aug 21, 2002)

I needed some questions answerd and they were thanks.,  I do believe kirk was trying to start somthing with MMA but i will stay away from his game.    kinda child like to start stuff with people when you control the threads.  :idunno:


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *I needed some questions answerd and they were thanks.,  *




All I can say is try to keep an open mind in the MA...........some stuff is good and some of it is pure BS.


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## Damian Mavis (Aug 22, 2002)

"please ignore the incendary comments and focus on the main thread"

Now you tell me! ahhhhh my eyes are bleeding nooooooo.

Heh, I swear to God martial arts has the biggest ego's in it.  I'm as guilty as anyone,  I constantly struggle to keep my damn ego under control.  Makes it hard for us (martial artists) to have discussions without getting our backs up.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## vincefuess (Aug 22, 2002)

It DOES seem like BS sometimes, all of the protocol and etiquette in some training halls.  I once left a school for that very reason.  Some "westerners" get so caught up in the Asian "culture" that it transcends what is supposed to be taught.  There ARE certain rules of etiquette that are universal for ANY training hall, however:

BOWING ONTO AND OFF OF THE TRAINING AREA/ MAT- This simply shows respect for those who have trained there before you, and for the wisdom shared in that area.  No brainer.

BOWING TO THE INSTRUCTOR- Again, a symbol of respect for their skill, and their willingness to teach it to you.

BOWING TO YOUR FELLOW STUDENT- A show of respect, and recognition of the fact they are willing to take their time to help you/ and vice-versa.

Some of the things where I start to have some problems with are (and I am speaking ONLY about training halls in the U.S.- not abroad):

SPEAKING A FOREIGN LANGUAGE ON THE MAT-  The skills being taught are hard enough without learning a second language.  If the school is located in the U.S. and it takes U.S. currency as remittance for training, then the language is English.

BOWING TO ANOTHER COUNTRY'S FLAG- This is often regarded as showing respect to the land of the art's origin.  I do not bow to the Japanese flag before driving my Mazda, which is also a gift from that land.  I paid for them both in U.S. currency.

Now- let me clarify...  If I were to travel abroad, and were to train in a dojo in Japan for example, I would follow their protocol without question, as I am a guest in their school and country, and I WILL humbly show respect for being allowed the opportunity.

This topic has been, is, and always will be a hard topic of debate.


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## Matt Stone (Aug 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> 
> *SPEAKING A FOREIGN LANGUAGE ON THE MAT-  The skills being taught are hard enough without learning a second language.*



I would agree, however I would also point out that there are very good reasons for keeping the foreign terms in some circumstances...  as long as the terms are explained and passed on with said explanations.

When the terminology gets too cumbersome, and gets in the way of the training, then it _is_ time to reconsider its necessity...



> *If the school is located in the U.S. and it takes U.S. currency as remittance for training, then the language is English.*



So if you are in a school in Oregon, claiming to teach Israeli martial arts, the teacher is of Native American descent, is married to a Chinese woman, has adopted Filipino children, and only accepts payment in Japanese _yen_, then what time does the train arrive at the station?  

:roflmao: 



> *Now- let me clarify...  If I were to travel abroad, and were to train in a dojo in Japan for example, I would follow their protocol without question, as I am a guest in their school and country, and I WILL humbly show respect for being allowed the opportunity.*



Interestingly enough, I went into a dojo here in Japan to train in Shuri-te karate...  I told the teacher that I did not have a white belt to wear.  He told me that he recognized that I was an instructor in _my_ art, so he was okay with my wearing my black belt...    Then, when we lined up, I took my place as the junior student in the class...  and got promptly reprimanded for not standing *next to* the teacher!

Just to show that what you think is the appropriate thing to do may not always be all that appropriate...  Go figure.

:asian:


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## Kirk (Aug 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *I needed some questions answerd and they were thanks.,  I do believe kirk was trying to start somthing with MMA but i will stay away from his game.    kinda child like to start stuff with people when you control the threads.  :idunno: *



I don't control squat.   I wasn't trying to start squat, kid.  Paste
my question in here, where was the insult?  Go check previous
threads too.  MMA'ers are always coming in here talking about
how it's the only way to fight, and how forms are useless, bowing
is useless, etcetera.  I don't understand why people such as
yourself come to a board where most of the posters are from
traditional arts, and post this stuff.  I TRULY don't understand.
That's like going to the Apollo and shouting out a racial slur.

I contend that it's NOT in the quest for knowledge of yourself,
or other grapplers, MMA'ers,  UFC wanna bes.  I think it's either
to stir something up, or to look for some kind of validation.  
Most of you guys always have the same 99% of all fights go to
the ground line, and most fights aren't against multiple attackers,
street fights are just like UFC fights, etc.  

So I still put the question to you.  Why do you post such things?
Why come into a place where there's SO MANY "traditional" 
martial artists and say such negative things?  And all you MMA'ers
have the same rhetoric "oh I don't want to start anything".  Yes
you do, c'mon!  Be man enough to answer, and not follow suit of
other immature mud slinging.


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## Bod (Aug 22, 2002)

> SPEAKING A FOREIGN LANGUAGE ON THE MAT-



In kitchens all over the world French is spoken as standard. For a good reason.

Dozens of people come to our Judo club every month from different countries, with little or no English.

No problem, the instructions are called out in Japanese.

Damian said -


> Heh, I swear to God martial arts has the biggest ego's in it. I'm as guilty as anyone, I constantly struggle to keep my damn ego under control. Makes it hard for us (martial artists) to have discussions without getting our backs up.



Join an online chess club, and eat your hat.


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




Sparky, (Kirk)

Take it to PM or email..............


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## Kirk (Aug 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



I'm sorry, did I in any way, shape, or form, address you in that
post?


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## Nightingale (Aug 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



If you put it in the public forum, its addressed to ALL of us.  Please let this go or take it to PM.  You're not going to convince him, he's not going to convince you, so the argument is futile to begin with.

Respectfully,

Nightingale


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 22, 2002)

> So if you are in a school in Oregon, claiming to teach Israeli martial arts, the teacher is of Native American descent, is married to a Chinese woman, has adopted Filipino children, and only accepts payment in Japanese yen, then what time does the train arrive at the station?



12 noon...just like in all those cowboy movies..and when the ladies step off of it, the gentlemen tip their hats and bow to them.


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## J-kid (Aug 22, 2002)

I just wanted to ask some questions .  It wouldnt make sense for me to ask people who didnt do it. right,  was not here to start a war but you are kinda edgey and want to start fights with people over a form look somewhere else for your brawl and grow up.:toilclaw:


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## Matt Stone (Aug 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *...MMA'ers are always coming in here talking about
> how it's the only way to fight, and how forms are useless, bowing
> ...



Where better to go to ask questions about traditional arts?  Obviously he wouldn't get too much info beyond already flawed and biased commentary if he stays among MMAists...



> *I TRULY don't understand.  That's like going to the Apollo and shouting out a racial slur.*



Somehow, I don't think they are the same... :idunno:



> *I contend that it's NOT in the quest for knowledge of yourself, or other grapplers, MMA'ers,  UFC wanna bes.  I think it's either to stir something up, or to look for some kind of validation. Most of you guys always have the same 99% of all fights go to the ground line, and most fights aren't against multiple attackers, street fights are just like UFC fights, etc.*



Again, further qualifying the need to post someplace where MMAists _are not_.  If he only frequents MMA forums, he will only have MMA information.  If you wanted to know about karate, would you ask your Muay Thai teacher?  Likely that his info would be biased toward MT and against karate...



> *So I still put the question to you.  Why do you post such things? Why come into a place where there's SO MANY "traditional" martial artists and say such negative things?  And all you MMA'ers have the same rhetoric "oh I don't want to start anything".  Yes you do, c'mon!  Be man enough to answer, and not follow suit of other immature mud slinging. *



Judo-kid is all of what? 16? 17?  So I am sure he has developed very little beyond high school mentality (not meaning to be offensive - I don't know Judo-kid personally, all I know is what I have seen him write, and how he wrote it).  Seeing this, and knowing what kids were like when I went to school, knowing what kids at our local schools are like (we live in a very small community, and you get to know all the kids eventually), I suspect that Judo-kid is posting his comments at the limit of his ability - he doesn't know yet how to write well enough to convey exactly what he means in a non-offensive manner.  So he did the best he could (although it did fall short of the standard).  Cut the kid some slack.  This far along in the thread, he is starting to admit that demonstrations of respect are universal and come in different forms.  Some of the "traditionalists" have agreed with some of his points...

And it seems that MMAists aren't the only ones trying to "start things."

Gambarimasu.

:asian:


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## arnisador (Aug 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *Judo-kid is all of what? 16? 17?  So I am sure he has developed very little beyond high school mentality (not meaning to be offensive *



This is not directed at *Yiliquan1* in particular. I've just reached my limit.

In responses to *Judo-Kid*'s posts I've frequently seen his age referenced as an argumentation tactic. I find this an *extremely* weak form of shoring up one's point, and frankly rather rude.

Again, this is not directed at *Yiliquan1* in particular, who I think in saying "Cut him some slack" is expressing a similar point of view. I'd like to emphasize that it's also not from me as a mod., just me as another user--an older man who, like Ronald Reagan, would not hold my opponent's youth and inexperience against him. I can't believe there's any more need to address anyone's questions by first pointing out what their age is.


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## Matt Stone (Aug 23, 2002)

In this thread, Judo-kid has gone from blatant trolling (deliberate or not) to aquiescence that there may be more to this whole respect thing than he thought at first glimpse...

He is also the product of a teacher who believes a number of things that (according to other posts) place him at the fringe of martial arts (his teaching and personal skills notwithstanding).

My comment about his age early in the thread was to contrast his relative youth to his understanding of some things that take decades (if not longer) to fully grasp.

My recent comment about his age was in defense of his writing style and possible inexperience in expressing himself in writing.

Either way, it seems to me that Judo-kid, in being exposed to all of our rantings, has begun to expand his perspectives on what this whole bowing thing is all about...

My apologies if I seemed out of order.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:


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## J-kid (Aug 23, 2002)

I have noticed a bunch of people flaming me Age etc.  at least Yiliquan1 said he was sorry,  But what i want is a sorry from are moderator Kirk for msging me that he wants to kick my ***,  i dont know how many web sites are run but that seems alittle tacky,  





> Message


             Here is what i said and what kirk had to say in a message i thought everyone should know instead of me sending him a nasty reply


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## Matt Stone (Aug 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *...at least Yiliquan1 said he was sorry...*



My apologies were extended if my comments offended, however I stand by my comments as they were made...

Judo-kid, you are young.  You haven't been practicing martial arts very long.  You serve as a wonderful lesson for the "newbies" and the "veterans" on this forum.  For the "newbies," you ask questions that may be too intimidating for others to ask.  For the "veterans," you remind us that newcomers don't know all the things we do, that we don't know everything, and that we need to retain the inquisitive nature of the brand new student - asking the hard questions and demanding tough answers.

Personally, I thank you for having asked some of the questions you have - though the format of the questions was a bit coarse.  No worries.  I remember very vividly how I was when I was your age, and I know that you will, like me, mature and change over time as experience hones your perceptions and forges you into a new person.

Good luck, and keep the questions coming.  You make us old farts get off our pedastals and keep our heads in the game.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:


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## arnisador (Aug 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *My apologies if I seemed out of order.*



To the contrary--I apologize for hijacking your post to make a point that had been boiling in me for a few days. It wasn't really a good example of what was bothering me--the time had just come I'm afarid. I think in many ways we are in agreement.


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