# multiple styles?



## Enson (Jul 2, 2004)

here is a question. what are your thoughts on someone learning multiple styles of ninjutsu/ninjitsu? getting their dans in bujin then jumping to genbu, then jeni... so on and so forth. or even god forbid bujin to tew ryu? hee hee! (thats for don:uhyeah: ) i read an article by joo bang lee and he is against someone learning any other style because they should dedicate their life to the betterment of the style they are in. he doesn't allow you to teach or learn any other style once you have decided to learn, teach, study, hwarangdo.

my thoughts on this are mixed. i guess if you are not truley happy in your style you should switch but what has made you make the jump? do you feel that your art is less than.

i personally chose to only study one style.
peace


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## Jay Bell (Jul 2, 2004)

In the Bujinkan, it has been told that people not do this.  It's against Hatsumi sensei's wishes for us to cross-train with the Genbukan or Jinenkan.  As far as I know, it's okay if you are a member of one of the others..(has this changed at all?)


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## Dale Seago (Jul 2, 2004)

Hasn't changed, Jay.


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 2, 2004)

Sorry wrong thread lol


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## Enson (Jul 6, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Hasn't changed, Jay.


yeah but what are your thoughts?


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## Dale Seago (Jul 6, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> yeah but what are your thoughts?



I think occasional cross-training/exposure to other arts is beneficial, as long as you first have a good foundation in whatever you've chosen as your "core" art, so you can better understand how to apply the principles of that core art versus opponents who may move and fight differently than you.

Regarding the Bujinkan, Neither Soke nor any of the Japanese shihan seem to have any problem with the idea of Bujinkan practitioners doing this, as long as they respect Soke's wishes not to train with either the Genbukan or Jinenkan. That's how I see it as well.


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## Dale Seago (Jul 6, 2004)

I think occasional cross-training/exposure to other arts is beneficial, as long as you first have a good foundation in whatever you've chosen as your "core" art, so you can better understand how to apply the principles of that core art versus opponents who may move and fight differently than you.

Regarding the Bujinkan, Neither Soke nor any of the Japanese shihan seem to have any problem with the idea of Bujinkan practitioners doing this, as long as they respect Soke's wishes not to train with either the Genbukan or Jinenkan. That's how I see it as well.

Going back to your original post, I think the idea of "someone learning multiple styles of ninjutsu/ninjitsu? getting their dans in bujin then jumping to genbu, then jeni... so on and so forth" is kinda silly. In the Bujinkan, it takes about ten years to _get exposed to all the fundamentals_, which is still a bit short of having "learned the system". Just trying to go for, say, shodan level in a variety of systems leaves you with all the weaknesses of your lack of in-depth understanding of each one, combined with your inability to make them "fit" properly with each other. It's like having a series of one-night stands: May be a lot of fun, but you never develop or understand meaningful relationships.


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## Hanzo04 (Jul 6, 2004)

i see know reason for studying diff. styles of ninjutsu. choose one of the X-kans and stick to it. all of the have there advantages. there's no point in getting shodans in three x-kans.


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## Enson (Jul 6, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Regarding the Bujinkan, Neither Soke nor any of the Japanese shihan seem to have any problem with the idea of Bujinkan practitioners doing this, as long as they respect Soke's wishes not to train with either the Genbukan or Jinenkan. That's how I see it as well.


why would dr. hatsumi not wish anyone else to train with the other kans? is there something wrong with it? resentment toward the others? not trying to offend but kinda made me wonder why?


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## Shogun (Jul 6, 2004)

I would'nt see the problem in studying other arts (say, escrima) but training in the Jinenkan or Genbukan doesnt seem .......I dont know......right, I guess.
Training in other martial arts entirely seems like it could only be benificial. however, training in one of the other X-kans might cause confusion. it is literally the same techniques, but the views and opinions, philosophy, etc is so radically different.
my thoughts.


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## gmunoz (Jul 9, 2004)

As a beginning practitioner I would only like to say that to develop a tendency of mixing similar styles (within the kans) almost seems futile.  To shodan in one's core art isn't the end, but the beginning.  As Shodan mentioned, I could also see the benefit in assimilating stuff from styles completely different, but within the kans where does loyalty come to play a part?  

I don't know, but it takes a lot of consideration when choosing a style to train in.  When I begin to dabble in other styles, what kind of message am I telling myself or my teacher?  This style is no longer keeping me giddy?  I'm not completely satisfied?  

Of course that is only one perspective.  I can also see the other side of things as one attempting to expose themselves to other kans to become a more well-rounded practitioner. Interesting question.


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## gmunoz (Jul 9, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> As Shodan mentioned, I could also see the benefit in assimilating stuff from styles completely different, but within the kans where does loyalty come to play a part?


 
I meant to say Shogun, not Shodan.  Sorry.


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## r.severe (Jul 9, 2004)

I spoke with Nagato shihan many times on my background because of his many questions from him and Hatsumi sensei. They both were very interested in what Ihave done.. background.
From what I remeber from these conversations they were very easy going with it, interested in it, and pleased with my background.

I'm sure many martial artist that are serious as well as hobbyist have different backgrounds that can be taken differently by Hatsumi sensei.
Hatsumi sensei book he written about other martial arts have many different sustems of combat in it.. pages full of different points...
And you have his pistol book.. which of course is not part of the traditional bujutsu.. that is with updated weaponry...
So you cannot say what anyone is really thinking...
Opinions on what others think means nothing.. it's mainly hear say...
But.. you also have a direct question that gets a direct answer too.. which might be JUST for that 'one' person... not for anyone else...

I feel if you live in a bubble you soon run out of air and die..
More or less the same with anything else.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Shogun (Jul 9, 2004)

> And you have his pistol book.. which of course is not part of the traditional bujutsu.. that is with updated weaponry...


Maybe not "updated", but I believe its called Hojutsu.

ps gmunoz, apology accepted. lol.


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## Don Roley (Jul 10, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I would'nt see the problem in studying other arts (say, escrima) but training in the Jinenkan or Genbukan doesnt seem .......I dont know......right, I guess.



Very good. Not just for the reasons you stated, but also because when you join a Japanese martial arts dojo, you take on a relationship that is just not a business one, but one closer to family. You expect the teacher to treat you not just as a source of revenue, but as someone he has an honest interest in seeing improve. In return for his father like guidence, you have to play the role of a child in many ways. If this is not acceptable, it is best to leave rather than try to go behind a teachers back.

It is kind of like dealing with a girlfriend in many ways. If she has a problem with another woman and do not want you to spend much time with that person, the responsible boyfriend would defer to her wishes with understanding unless the demands got silly. There are prices to pay for relationships and anyone who has had a succesfull one for over a few years can tell you. If the demands were silly, then the responsible person would make a clean break rather than go behind anyone's back.

On the matter of arts like escrima, you have to be carefull. Way back in Aiki News #99 Ellis Amdur had a great piece that included the following tidbit.




> On a somatic level, too, the movements of atemi must be congruent with those of aikido waza. The The unintegrated addition of karate or boxing techniques is problematic, because one has to re-orginize on a neuro-muscular level the shifting from one martial system to another. This is dangerous because suki (vulnerable areas) occur in one's defenses at the moment of the shift, no matter how quick one is. As there is a spiritual orginization which is inherent in each martial art, it is also possible that you will distort yourself, entering a bastard spiritual state, neither karate or aikido. One cannot do justice to the moral requirements of either martial system.
> 
> Ecclecticism is often superficial, a refuge of shallow understanding. One can aquire a range of various skills, and be impressive in one's knowledge. However, without commitment to a discipline, without involvement in depth, none of these skills are an expression of one's own being. To illustrate this, let us consider an individual who goes out drinking and picking up a different bed partner every night. He or she is likely to  be far less able to give to another person than the individual who truly commits to one man or woman. The former has far more experience, far more stories to tell, but the committed one has heart.



Alas, that small section cannot do justice to the whole article, and copyright laws won't let me quote much more and still be "fair use." If you can get it, I urge you to do so. He talks a lot about how some people have succesfully blended two arts together in a seemless way while most have great big holes that the creators can't see. I think it may have been reprinted in his new book.

I think it is good to go out and see other arts and try them out. I did not start in Bujinkan. If I had not been willing to go out and see other arts I would not be training in it now. There may be other arts that are even better for my needs out there somewhere and unless I look I may never find out if they exist. But you do need to commit to one art and not try to hunt too many rabbits at once. Different arts do things diffrently for very important reasons. Things like the position of a foot angle may seem small, but they are frequently just the tip of a very important iceburg.


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## gmunoz (Jul 10, 2004)

Fair enough.  "We become what we are committed to" (Warren, R., 2003)  A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything.  I try to fully commit myself to a few things instead of half-committing to many.  Jack of all trades and master of none?  I'd rather hone skills in one area instead of having one-night stands with a few different styels at the same time.  Mr. Roley's analogy of the committment in a relationship is good.  Thank you.


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## Don Roley (Jul 10, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Mr. Roley's analogy of the committment in a relationship is good.  Thank you.



I only quoted it. The original quote is by Ellis Amdur.

There is a fine line between not being ignorant of other things (Dave Lowry once wrote about a high ranked Japanese Karateka who severely injured himself because he did not know even a simple judo brekafall but also has written things along the of the Amdur article I wrote) and spreading oneself so thin over many arts that you never get excellent at any one.


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## Don Roley (Jul 10, 2004)

Here is a good article kind of related to the subject. Read it and see how some people who study multiple styles can often be....

Pirates!  %-}


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## Kalifallen (Nov 3, 2004)

I think it is cool to learn a different varieties of ninjutsu. I'm going to learn Tew Ryu and Bujinkan and pretty proud of the variety that I'm going to learn.


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## Bujingodai (Nov 11, 2004)

I am a big believer in cross training. For a variety of reasons. You will gain the knowledge of the other styles and the way they carry things, often this is good when you are learning of culture etc etc. You may pick up a technique here and there. Absolutley making sure that you are devoted to the school you have chosen though. Honestly I really enjoy meeting people and networking. You;d be suprised at who has lots of talent and who speaks more than they can show.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 11, 2004)

When I cross-train, I prefer to do so to get a feel of the fighting tactics of the respective style, not for mere technique collecting.


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## Bujingodai (Nov 11, 2004)

Did I not convey that idea? I don't go to collect technique either, but it doesn't hurt to learn. I have also gained an idea for the effectiveness for some groups, including the Kans.


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## Kreth (Nov 12, 2004)

IMO, a lot of people cross-train far too early. In most cases, they're looking for something they feel is missing from their primary art, when in fact, it's due to a lack of understanding of that art.

Jeff


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## Bujingodai (Nov 12, 2004)

I do agree with that. I waited some years before doing so myself. Now it encompasses about 5-10% of my training. Still great experience.


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## DWeidman (Nov 12, 2004)

Kalifallen said:
			
		

> I think it is cool to learn a different varieties of ninjutsu. I'm going to learn Tew Ryu and Bujinkan and pretty proud of the variety that I'm going to learn.


Yep.  I agree.  Cool is the right word - dooode.  Smart may not be the right word, or effective, but "cool" definately is.  



			
				Enson said:
			
		

> why would dr. hatsumi not wish anyone else to train with the other kans? is there something wrong with it? resentment toward the others? not trying to offend but kinda made me wonder why?


Well - Dr. Hatsumi runs the Bujinkan.  I guess it doesn't matter why - does it?  Maybe he hates their patches...  Or maybe he has his own reasons...  Guess you could ask him.



			
				Bujingodai said:
			
		

> I am a big believer in cross training. For a variety of reasons. You will gain the knowledge of the other styles and the way they carry things, often this is good when you are learning of culture etc etc. You may pick up a technique here and there.


A good art is a complete art - the body and mind (philosophy / mindset and physical techniques) work together.  Principles, strategies, and patterns are far more important than "techniques".  My cross training has been to see other schools and their principles, strategies, and patterns - not to pick up a cool new technique to impress my friends at the dojo...   As such - I am completely happy with the art I am in - with no need to check out other Ninja dojos (sighs) -- especially the kinds without legitimate history.

Anywho - 

-Daniel


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## DWeidman (Nov 12, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> Did I not convey that idea? I don't go to collect technique either, but it doesn't hurt to learn. I have also gained an idea for the effectiveness for some groups, including the Kans.


This would be a dangerous assumption to make - IMO.  The best you could say is that you gained an idea for the effectiveness of some individuals within a group - hardly the group itself.  The "Kans" for example - have such a HUGE variation in their talents and abilities - the best you could get would be a flavor or a subtle hint on what the group in general does...

-Daniel


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## Bujingodai (Nov 12, 2004)

Glad your happy. I am too. I don't pick up techniques to impress people, no need for that. I don't see anything wrong with learning something.



Yes I guess it could look like a wild assumption. as for my exposure to the Kan. I was there for a few years, have trained also in over 10 of the schools been to seminars and Tai kai, so yes it is a small amount of exposure. However it is exposure, and certainly enough to get a very basic opinion.
I was really impressed by some, take my Shidoshi Frank Hill. And very very disappointed by some that I saw as well, however I am not rude enough to throw names there.
Same goes for the independents. I have met likely more schools than most. I have seen some that are really great people, however I don't see eye to eye with the technique, it looks made up or very little "taijutsuesque" for whatever that is worth.
On the other hand I have met some of the schools that are in question on the other boards, they have incredible skills and incredible schools
Now if you are happy with what you are doing. Cool. I am happy with what I am doing.
So what are we arguing about


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## DWeidman (Nov 12, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> ...I don't see anything wrong with learning something.
> 
> Same goes for the independents. I have met likely more schools than most. I have seen some that are really great people, however I don't see eye to eye with the technique, it looks made up or very little "taijutsuesque" for whatever that is worth.
> On the other hand I have met some of the schools that are in question on the other boards, they have incredible skills and incredible schools
> ...


I don't think we are arguing.  As stated before - it is dangerous to cross-train before you reach a significant milestone in your training in ONE art as there is nothing to base your cross-training in...

On a vaguely related note - I am surprised you grade the Indies on "Taijustsu-esque" - as the indies, by definition, don't have a traditional background.  Other than sharing (borrowing / stealing?) the ninjutsu (ninja?) name - they admit they have nothing in common with traditional JAPANESE ninjutsu schools (which I don't understand).  I lump them in with the "Joe's school for kicking ***" - which doesn't have a taijutsu scale at all - it is just Joe and his ability to "kick ***"...

Anywho...

-Daniel


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## Bujingodai (Nov 12, 2004)

Ok fair enough, well we agree on the first part anyway.

As for the Taijutsuesque movement, I'm not judging whether or not these schools have any traditional merit or whatever. Just most of the indie schools that I know are X Kan or somewhat similar, many of them have the typical shifting movement that I would have been used to. So being that is my experience thats how I see it.
However I see your point, and there are more than enough of the schools that should just be called Joes school for kicking ***


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## DWeidman (Nov 12, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> Ok fair enough, well we agree on the first part anyway.
> 
> As for the Taijutsuesque movement, I'm not judging whether or not these schools have any traditional merit or whatever. ...
> However I see your point, and there are more than enough of the schools that should just be called Joes school for kicking ***


That is the point though...

Why try to attach to the "ninja" title?  The groups aren't authentic, so why pretend to be?  It is as easy to make the argument that they practice Klingon warfare as it is to claim they are practicing "ninjutsu / ninjitsu".

Anyway - 

-Daniel


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## Cryozombie (Nov 12, 2004)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> It is as easy to make the argument that they practice Klingon warfare as it is to claim they are practicing "ninjutsu / ninjitsu".
> 
> -Daniel


Because I understand that the school that claimed to teach Klingon HTH got sued... 

Yes.  I am being serious.


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## DWeidman (Nov 12, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Because I understand that the school that claimed to teach Klingon HTH got sued...
> 
> Yes. I am being serious.


Hm.  That throws a wrench into it... or does it???

They could claim they teach Klungon - and then claim the difference in spelling makes it legit - right?

-Daniel


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## DWeidman (Nov 12, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> However I see your point, and there are more than enough of the schools that should just be called Joes school for kicking ***


Actually -- in hindsight -- shouldn't ***ALL*** of those schools be called Joes School for Kicking *** - unless the school has an authentic Menkyo Kaiden in a REAL ninjutsu school?

I mean - you can take a birthday card and call it a passport - but it doesn't get you through customs no matter how much you want to pretend it isn't a birthday card... right? Why do we tollerate birthday cards and agree to call them passports out here?

Maybe "Monopoly Money" v. real currency is a better analogy...

-Daniel


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## Limeydog (Nov 12, 2004)

Hey Dan,

NICE!!!! Good to see you on martial talk. Guess things are gonna get pretty interesting.

Later
Patrick


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## Bujingodai (Nov 13, 2004)

K, well I guess we agree to disagree I think.

Regardless, I think your selling yourself short not opening your eyes to some of these groups. I know you don't think so, but I have benefited from seeing them. Even if it was to prove to me what everyone says about them.


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## DWeidman (Nov 14, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> K, well I guess we agree to disagree I think.
> 
> Regardless, I think your selling yourself short not opening your eyes to some of these groups. I know you don't think so, but I have benefited from seeing them. Even if it was to prove to me what everyone says about them.


Not really.  We agree that you have tolerance for liars.

I don't think you understand where I am coming from.  I have NO problem with "Joes School of ***-Kicking".  I will even stop by and check that out - train there if they seem to be a GREAT school.  I have no idea how this is "selling myself short"...

It is like going to a Greek restaurant - to find out they have Chinese food.  Sure, the Chinese food may be good - but it isn't really Greek food is it?  So why should I ever stop there again - as the reason I stopped by the first time was under FALSE pretense because they were LIARS.  Of course, for some, the food is good enough that the rest of it doesn't matter... right?  And, unfortuneately, unlike my food analogy, you aren't out $12.75 - you are potentially compromising years of training, sweat, and dedication for a lie.

Not that you don't get enough crappy instructors in "legit" organizations - but at least they don't LIE straight off the bat.

Anyway...

-Daniel


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## Gary Arthur (Nov 15, 2004)

In my nineteen years of Studying Ninjutsu I have certainly cross trained. I have trained with Dr Hatsumi in the Bujinkan, Tanemura in the Genbukan, Fumon Tanaka from the Koden Mushi Muso Kai (I think thats right) as well as the Shadows of Iga, and I have found this cross thraining to be of great benefit.

I have also trained in Kali, JKD, Hakko Ryu Jujutsu, Aikido, Western Swordsmanship, and Judo whilst studying Ninjutsu. Not because I wanted to put these arts into my art, but because i wanted to know what a Kali/Judo/Jujutsu man etc might attack me with.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 15, 2004)

Did you find out anything interesting about aikido attacks...?


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## Don Roley (Nov 15, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> IMO, a lot of people cross-train far too early. In most cases, they're looking for something they feel is missing from their primary art, when in fact, it's due to a lack of understanding of that art.



That has been my experience as well. I have heard that cross training really should be done after you have reached about the level of instructor in order to have a good foundation in your old art before you start picking up other habits. In the Bujinkan, this would be about the fifth dan, or the equivilent in terms of experience.


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## Shogun (Nov 15, 2004)

> Did you find out anything interesting about aikido attacks...?


Good one.


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## Don Roley (Nov 16, 2004)

Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> I have also trained in Kali, JKD, Hakko Ryu Jujutsu, Aikido, Western Swordsmanship, and Judo whilst studying Ninjutsu. Not because I wanted to put these arts into my art, but because i wanted to know what a Kali/Judo/Jujutsu man etc might attack me with.



I remembered starting an entire thread about this subject. Finally found it here. 

I am too lazy to type up the relevent points again, did not know if it was right to cut and paste without listing a link.


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## Gary Arthur (Nov 16, 2004)

A couple of people have asked about Aikido attacks. Well what if an Aikido guys throws a punch at you and when you respond they try to use some Aikido. I remember some years ago an army guy that studied Aikido who knew I was a martial artist tried to grab me. Not knowing he was into aikido I managed to get him off when he started to try to twist my wrist in an Omote Kote Gyaku Nage type movement or Kote Gaeshi in Aikido. The way this lock was applied was different to how we in Ninjutsu do it, but I now know what an aikido lock/throw feels like. This in turn gives me valuable information about my attacker.

I also had a student in my Dojo who got to black belt in Ninjutsu. He also practiced a lot of Judo and Aikido. He was great for using as an Uke as he could escape from anything and make it look dynamic (excellent for demonstrations)It was also great training trying to stop him escaping and rolling out of any throw I did.

I have also visited martial arts Dojos where martial arts clubs have mixed Karate, Judo and Aikido in to a mix and finally calling it something like Goshinjutsu. These clubs may start with an attack but their primary goal is to get you into grappling range to employ either throws (judo) or wrist locks (Aikido)

Finally what happens when you are working as a security guard, Police officer, prison officer and you need to arrest or control someone, or maybe just stop someone and they attempt an Aikido wrist lock on you which if applied could take you to the ground in seconds.

Please also remember that there are many styles of Aikido. Morihei Ueshiba Aikido might be quite passive in its defences but what about Tomiki style. Or the Aikido thats practiced by the Japanese police that is used in an aggresive manner.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 16, 2004)

So, what would you have done to provoke an attack from an aikido practitioner? 
And how does one get a black belt in ninjutsu?


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## DWeidman (Nov 16, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> And how does one get a black belt in ninjutsu?


You pass your black belt test.

Or you buy your own and just claim to be a blackbelt (much easier).  Be sure to get one with writing on it (don't worry about what the writing says - just get something super cool).

-Daniel


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 16, 2004)

Didn't know uncle H had changed the ranking procedures so that you're now able to get shodan in ninjutsu as well as Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.


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## DWeidman (Nov 16, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Didn't know uncle H had changed the ranking procedures so that you're now able to get shodan in ninjutsu as well as Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.


Ah!  Nevermind.  I see what you are getting at...

I recommend Ashida Kim - then.

Carry on...

-Daniel


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