# Not feeling it...



## Makalakumu (Aug 27, 2007)

I have a strange and embarressing admission...I've trained in tai chi for over six years and I'm not sure what "chi" is supposed to feel like.  When I practice qigong, I feel relaxed and at peace, but I don't feel anything "special" or anything other "feeling" that other people in class report.  And when I practice push hands with class mates it doesn't necessarily feel any different then when I'm doing any other fine motor physical activity semi-competitively?  How do you feel it?  What sensations do you experience?  Maybe its there and I don't realize it?


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## Flying Crane (Aug 27, 2007)

Hi John,

I have a similar experience to you, and I think there are a number of things at play here.

I've been practicing tai chi chuan for 9 or 10 years now.  However, it takes a back seat to my other training and gets less attention.  While I do practice it regularly, it is definitely not as much as my other arts.  I operate on the assumption that this neglect on my part goes a long way in my lack of development.  However, while I am young enough to still practice the external arts that I love (I'm all of 36), I want to focus on that.  But if I keep my tai chi in my back pocket, so to speak, when I get old and worn down I can just make that transition over.

Furthermore, I believe chi development is subtle and gradual, and I also believe that many people will never really grasp it, no matter how much they train.  It may be that really skilled instructors in this are rare, it may be that a person's individual temperament and whatnot may actively interfere with their development.  I think it really really is not for just anybody.  The people who truly develop this to a strong level are rare, altho the internet and marketing ploys would have you believe otherwise.  All the chi-gung and tai chi instructional videos on the market make it seem like everyone and their dog should be able to grasp this with just three easy lessons.  It's bunk.  Those teachers producing those videos don't have it either.  They practice hollow tai chi.  Pretty movement, nothing inside.  Most people today practice this, including myself, altho I am smart enough to recognize the difference and I am trying to overcome it.  BUt everyone starts at that level, and most people just don't get past it.

The best I get so far is a sense of warmth in my hands, and I don't get that all the time.  But learning to relax is an important benefit, and even if a strong control over chi never develops, I think the practice of tai chi is still very beneficial.  Regardless, it still contributes to my overall training, and I think makes my other arts stronger.


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## Taijiguy (Aug 27, 2007)

Nothing wrong with that.  I've never "felt chi" either.  Sometimes people will feel chi because they expect to (playing a little mind trick on themselves) or mistake normal blood flow from improved circulation as feeling chi.  Some people feel things from day one, while others don't feel anything unusual, ever (even some masters).  One quote from a teacher I remember is that since qi is natural you shouldn't feel anything unusual if everything's flowing correctly.


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## Steel Tiger (Aug 27, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> I have a strange and embarressing admission...I've trained in tai chi for over six years and I'm not sure what "chi" is supposed to feel like. When I practice qigong, I feel relaxed and at peace, but I don't feel anything "special" or anything other "feeling" that other people in class report. And when I practice push hands with class mates it doesn't necessarily feel any different then when I'm doing any other fine motor physical activity semi-competitively? How do you feel it? What sensations do you experience? Maybe its there and I don't realize it?


 
Feeling relaxed and at peace is a pretty good description for "feeling" qi if you ask me. I don't think there is actually any "special" feeling associated with qi. I like to think that when everything just clicks and flows effortlessly that I am feeling qi.





Flying Crane said:


> Furthermore, I believe chi development is subtle and gradual, and I also believe that many people will never really grasp it, no matter how much they train. It may be that really skilled instructors in this are rare, it may be that a person's individual temperament and whatnot may actively interfere with their development. I think it really really is not for just anybody. The people who truly develop this to a strong level are rare, altho the internet and marketing ploys would have you believe otherwise. All the chi-gung and tai chi instructional videos on the market make it seem like everyone and their dog should be able to grasp this with just three easy lessons. It's bunk. Those teachers producing those videos don't have it either. They practice hollow tai chi. Pretty movement, nothing inside. Most people today practice this, including myself, altho I am smart enough to recognize the difference and I am trying to overcome it. BUt everyone starts at that level, and most people just don't get past it.


 
I have to agree. Qi is subtle and not easy to develop. I've been doing this for 20 years now and still feel uncertain about the whole thing at times. There are serious subtleties involved which are tied up with concepts like wu wei, the uncarved block, and naming it is not really knowing it.

The charlatans have made this whole subject more difficult to grasp. All too often are there claims of expelling qi, of being able to see it or even hear it. A lot of the mystification of qi is marketing. I think the whole thing is much simpler which actually makes it more difficult to understand.




Flying Crane said:


> The best I get so far is a sense of warmth in my hands, and I don't get that all the time. But learning to relax is an important benefit, and even if a strong control over chi never develops, I think the practice of tai chi is still very beneficial. Regardless, it still contributes to my overall training, and I think makes my other arts stronger.


 
I have had this exact experience. A warming of the palms of the hands, especially when doing palm changes. It comes and goes. Internal arts, I think are always beneficial.





Taijiguy said:


> Nothing wrong with that. I've never "felt chi" either. Sometimes people will feel chi because they expect to (playing a little mind trick on themselves) or mistake normal blood flow from improved circulation as feeling chi. Some people feel things from day one, while others don't feel anything unusual, ever (even some masters). One quote from a teacher I remember is that since qi is natural you shouldn't feel anything unusual if everything's flowing correctly.


 
Exactly. Very nicely put.


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## terryl965 (Aug 27, 2007)

Don't feel bad I have done it too and have no ideal what the chi is.

But people have given us some nice answers.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 27, 2007)

Another point I wanted to add: Even if you never develop a strong sense or control of chi, one thing that tai chi should help you develop, in addition to being relaxed (which is terribly important, yet very difficult for many people), is the ability to move with the entire body in closely coordinated unison.  Throwing a relaxed punch with your entire body is much more powerful while being less strenuous than throwing a punch with just the muscles of your arm and shoulder.  This relaxed power is stronger and more effective than "muscling" your way thru a technique in the way that external arts are more apt to do.  It's true that external arts SHOULD also develop this skill, but I believe tai chi helps develop it to a greater degree.


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## Steel Tiger (Aug 27, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> Another point I wanted to add: Even if you never develop a strong sense or control of chi, one thing that tai chi should help you develop, in addition to being relaxed (which is terribly important, yet very difficult for many people), *is the ability to move with the entire body in closely coordinated unison.* Throwing a relaxed punch with your entire body is much more powerful while being less strenuous than throwing a punch with just the muscles of your arm and shoulder. This relaxed power is stronger and more effective than "muscling" your way thru a technique in the way that external arts are more apt to do. It's true that external arts SHOULD also develop this skill, but I believe tai chi helps develop it to a greater degree.


 
Great point FC.  I think this is the key to good qi control and to the idea of feeling qi.


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## grydth (Aug 27, 2007)

Taijiguy said:


> Nothing wrong with that.  I've never "felt chi" either.  Sometimes people will feel chi because they expect to (playing a little mind trick on themselves) or mistake normal blood flow from improved circulation as feeling chi.  Some people feel things from day one, while others don't feel anything unusual, ever (even some masters).  One quote from a teacher I remember is that since qi is natural you shouldn't feel anything unusual if everything's flowing correctly.




Okay, here's where I get to display my ignorance for the world.... 

I have always looked at the benefits of improved circulation and blood flow as the Western way of defining what the Chinese defined with the concept of Qi. I believed the West would say better oxygenated blood flowing more freely.... while the East would say good new Qi flowing across meridians... to me, it was the same process.

Expecting to be shot... make it quick please.:shotgun:


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## Steel Tiger (Aug 27, 2007)

grydth said:


> Okay, here's where I get to display my ignorance for the world....
> 
> I have always looked at the benefits of improved circulation and blood flow as the Western way of defining what the Chinese defined with the concept of Qi. I believed the West would say better oxygenated blood flowing more freely.... while the East would say good new Qi flowing across meridians... to me, it was the same process.
> 
> Expecting to be shot... make it quick please.:shotgun:


 
I think your point of view is not unreasonable.  But from a Chinese point of view qigong, especially moving qigong like ba duan jin helps improve both blood flow and qi cultivation.

If you were going to start to study qi and qigong in depth, this would be a reasonable perspective to start with.


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## Taijiguy (Aug 28, 2007)

It's one of those things where you might be right... sometimes   I suppose you might hear something like that from time to time, but qi and the meridians are supposed to be something separate.  Think of acupuncture.


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## Rabu (Aug 28, 2007)

I'll give it a shot.

Qi is what Qi does:

1 - Activation
2 - Warming
3 - Defense
4 - Containment
5 - Transforming

Each organ has specific functions of creating and storing or directing flow of Qi.

Qigong practice, in my experience, is meant to work these aspects of healthy Qi in the body.

Descriptions of warmth are common and 'signs of Qi'.  One instructor I had suggested that proper Qi development would show by slowing or stopping sweating (containment) and also in proper bowel movements and deeper more relaxed breathing.  Each of these things associate with what Qi does.  

Proper Qi flow protects against external evils, such as 'wind' and 'damp' which are associated with illness in Traditional Chinese Medical practice.

Sadly, I have been unable to levitate, throw Qi balls or catch bullets in my teeth.  I once had the experience of throwing someone during spar without touching them, but I believe that had more to do with conditioning of my spar partner than any mystical power I had developed.  

It sounds like you are feeling Qi now.  Sometimes its hard to accept that the things which are so apparent from the Wuxia are really quite simple and palpable in reality when they actually exist.

Qi flows along the meridians in the human body, and are associated wth Qi in this fashion.  There has been a tremendous blending in modern TCM to add material from India and more modern practices such as Reiki and 'energy healing' methedologies.  The confusion of terms and material from different modalities causes tremendous confusion and in my personal opinion serves the patient poorly at best.

Just a few thoughts.

Best regards,

Rob


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## qi-tah (Aug 28, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> I have a strange and embarressing admission...I've trained in tai chi for over six years and I'm not sure what "chi" is supposed to feel like. When I practice qigong, I feel relaxed and at peace, but I don't feel anything "special" or anything other "feeling" that other people in class report. And when I practice push hands with class mates it doesn't necessarily feel any different then when I'm doing any other fine motor physical activity semi-competitively? How do you feel it? What sensations do you experience? Maybe its there and I don't realize it?


 
Qi is always there, becoming aware of it is another thing, and being able to direct or manipulate it is something else again! Don't stress about not being able to feel unusual sensations that you can label "qi" when you do qi-gong or other internal practices, just concentrate on yr posture, breathing, softness and smooth transitions. 

There are a few common physical feelings that ppl get when doing qi-gong... such as warm or tingling feelings in the palms, the balls of the feet and the crown of the head. If you direct yr attention to those areas you might feel something there. For instance, i imagine dirty smoke coming out through my bai hui point (crown) when i exhale during holding the tree meditation, and i often feel a tingling in that area. But it's the visualisation i consider more important than the sensation.

Also, some ppl shake or move uncontrollably during certain exercises. If you close yr eyes while you do qi-gong you might notice yrself leaning or swaying one way or another. To my mind, these sensations just highlight where you are storing tension in yr body. I never used to shake when i started qi-gong, then slowly i got them as i progressed, now i shake much less. Don't worry about whether it happens or not - it will come and go - in a way, it's like yr body thinking.


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## Nyarlathotep (Aug 31, 2007)

Problem with Qi is that it's a vague and abstract term with lots of spiritual baggage. 

As a direct result of this fuzziness it can be ascribed to pretty much any sensation or imagined through social pressure or just plain wishful thinking.

It would be better to just put all thought of Qi out of your mind and instead turn your attention to the actual (though often subtle) physical sensations., especially the feeling of connection between different parts of the body and the way the feet feed the movements expression in the hands as well as your own personal 'limit' of grounded movement.

Best of luck on your journey... 
Dave


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## Blotan Hunka (Aug 31, 2007)

Im always amused by people who dont believe in God because there is no "proof" he exists, but have "faith" that Chi/Ki exists even though scientists have never been able to detect, measure or observe it.


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## qi-tah (Aug 31, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Im always amused by people who dont believe in God because there is no "proof" he exists, but have "faith" that Chi/Ki exists even though scientists have never been able to detect, measure or observe it.


 
I don't think demonstrations of proof for Qi are actually that important, as it's not a concept that you need to believe in wholesale in order to benifit from using it. Directing yr attention/intent to various area or pathways in yr body can improve yr procioreception, ability to influence yr bodily functions thru biofeedback, and promote relaxation. Nothing very magical or contentious about that. There are always going to be tossers who moan on about "feeling the Qi, man", but it's the consistant practice that will help in the end, not what is believed or felt.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 31, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Im always amused by people who dont believe in God because there is no "proof" he exists, but have "faith" that Chi/Ki exists even though scientists have never been able to detect, measure or observe it.


 
Or perhaps "chi" is different then God.  Perhaps, there is proof that "something" is happening but chi is just an antiquated explanation.  See this thread.  Or this one.  Or this one.


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## exile (Aug 31, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Or perhaps "chi" is different then God.  Perhaps, there is proof that "something" is happening but chi is just an antiquated explanation.  See this thread.  Or this one.  Or this one.



I've posted this link somewhere else, I think, but it seems germane here, since it's the inverse case of the one Blotan brings up: Redmond is religious, but doesn't believe in Chi/Ki/Qi, except as an exotic way of talking about an optimal state of the mind and body, for there reasons he gives in this essay. Note in particular what he says about ki:

_It is just energy, plain and simple. *When I feel like a million bucks, it is because I got enough sleep, I&#8217;m relaxed and unstressed, I am psychologically motivated and happy, and I have been eating well. To me, that is ki,* and I see absolutely nothing wrong with believing in ki in that way. I cannot prove to you that ki does not exist, because I believe it does. I had some good ki this morning, and I revised this article for the umpteenth time and put it in the queue to be published on my web site.

However, I do not believe that ki means special energy flowing through meridians in our bodies. I do not believe that ki is like The Force from Star Wars, something that I can harness and use to increase my strength, speed, or make objects move without touching them. I do not believe that ki is transferred from one person to another, projected outward, nor that it glows and that only the special people who sell psychic advice can see it. *I do not believe that ki is anything other than a combination of my psychological state, food intake, brain chemistry, and physical health and completely internal to me.*_​
(my emphases). The idea is, crudely, that Ki means firing on all twelve cylinders&#8212;nothing transcendental. The whole essay, which defends the point of view expressed in the above quote, is well worth reading&#8212;it's not very long, and it presents the burden-of-proof criterion for accepting an assertion about the existence of posited entities very succinctly and level-headedly.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 31, 2007)

The thing most consistent in the descriptions that I have heard from people I feel are reputable regarding chi is that it is something that can definitely be felt.  I think equating it to blood flow, or a positive attitude, or sufficient sleep and a clear head is not really accurate, altho perhaps the one may affect the other.

Perhaps what is felt is somewhat different from one person to the next, but my sifu's sifu (is that my sigung?) describes it as felling like he is taking a shower on the inside of his body.  He can literally feel it "sloshing" around inside him, and he can slosh it to where he wants it.  And his martial technique is devastating.  While I have not met him personally, my classmates have accomplanied my sifu to Beijing and studied with sigung, and they have attested to his capability, even in his 70s.

My sifu himself also describes it as something that he can definitely and specifically feel and direct.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 31, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Or perhaps "chi" is different then God. Perhaps, there is proof that "something" is happening but chi is just an antiquated explanation.


 
Now that I think about it, the concept of god or gods, really isn't too far off of where I was trying to peg chi.  Back in the olden days, people used gods and goddesses to explain all sorts of natural phenomenon, like volcanoes, earthquakes, death, you name it.  Now, because of science, we know better.  

This doesn't mean that "god" or "chi" are not useful concepts, however.  The latter is just a traditional way of describing a bunch of natural phenomenon that other posters have written about.  The former is good for making people feel better about stuff they can't control.


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## qi-tah (Sep 1, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> The thing most consistent in the descriptions that I have heard from people I feel are reputable regarding chi is that it is something that can definitely be felt. I think equating it to blood flow, or a positive attitude, or sufficient sleep and a clear head is not really accurate, altho perhaps the one may affect the other.
> 
> Perhaps what is felt is somewhat different from one person to the next, but my sifu's sifu (is that my sigung?) describes it as felling like he is taking a shower on the inside of his body. He can literally feel it "sloshing" around inside him, and he can slosh it to where he wants it. And his martial technique is devastating. While I have not met him personally, my classmates have accomplanied my sifu to Beijing and studied with sigung, and they have attested to his capability, even in his 70s.
> 
> My sifu himself also describes it as something that he can definitely and specifically feel and direct.


 
I agree... i reckon bodily sensations of qi involves more than just being well rested or in the zone or anything like that. It's more active than that - i see qi-gong as a deliberate training of the mind to have a positive effect on the body. Whether qi is energy, attention, intent, bio-electricity, oxygen, blood/lymph or some combination of these or other factors isn't that important to me. Qi-gong isn't something that i believe in, it's something that i do. 

A former teacher of mine once said that focusing too much on the physical sensations of qi-gong  is a trap that most ppl fall into at some stage of their practice... I guess it's a bit like peak experiences in meditation in that way.


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## Nyarlathotep (Sep 13, 2007)

qi-tah said:


> A former teacher of mine once said that focusing too much on the physical sensations of qi-gong  is a trap that most ppl fall into at some stage of their practice... I guess it's a bit like peak experiences in meditation in that way.


Paradoxically I both agree and disagree with this.

Focusing *too much* on the sensations of Tai'Chi can definitely represent both a distraction and a trap, especially if one becomes fixated solely on the pleasant sensations. 

However on the other hand if you don't pay attention to them (the kinesthetic sensations of Tai Chi that is)  you are more likely to fall into the error of making movements that externally resemble Tai Chi, while lacking the connectedness, relaxation, structure and rooting of the art proper.

Remember Tai Chi is an _internal_ martial art, each posture and movement takes shape from within. 

As for the more subtle sensations, whatever they may be, I personally think that the only sensible approach to take is to aim towards ever deepening relaxation, coupled with calm perception of what is there... not what you feel should be there, or what other people have told you should be there, but what *is* there.

Don't expect cosmic fireworks though, it's just the everyday buried beneath the mind's chattering and the body's tensions. But again take no-one's word for it, least of all mine... look and discover for yourself.


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## Tai G (Oct 30, 2007)

Rabu said:


> I'll give it a shot.
> 
> Qi is what Qi does...
> 
> Rob


 
I think you've about got it covered Rob. I would add the line from the classics that intention leads the Qi, the Qi leads the blood...
When you do qigong or taiji or  Reiki and your hands fill with blood and get that mottled look on the palms I think you're feelin it.

Also the idea of Qi in chinese medicine can also refer to the function of organ systems, so in one sense if everything is functioning well in your body that could be one definition of good qi flow. 
peace.


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## kempocat (Dec 12, 2007)

I do feel something VERY special that best translates as a viabrating warmth and opposed magnetics along with a great calm I assumed that everyone was feeling this
.
but when I talk about it I find out just how alone I am with this
.
then I saw a qoute " those that dont know talk 
and those that do know dont talk"
.
I think I am somewhere in between as I usualy pay the price for talking by being told how completely wrong I am or that I am dreaming it all


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## charyuop (Dec 12, 2007)

How many people do Tai Chi Chuan (who knows why people forgets all the time the Chuan part)? How many people do Ba Gua? How many people do Aikido? How many Internal Martial Arts are out there?
If you think, there are many people involved in internal Martial Arts and many of them can use those Arts proficiently as self defence. So is Chi something we all develop or is Chi not important for Internal Martial Arts?

I personally do not believe to Chi as used in fighting like many people do. True, through relaxation and meditation you can reach incredible things (like you will notice you can start warming up different part of your body). That is just blood circulation related. Chi exists, but in a health related discussion.

If I could use Chi in fighting I should be able to knock you down whatever happens: while shaking your hand, stomping on your foot, pulling your ear and so on.
Way too often people see miracle things happening in Tai Chi, Aikido or other Internal martial Art dimostrations and they immediately say it is Chi. If so would make no sense having so many styles...it would be enough 1 style that teaches you how to land a punch and Chi will do the rest.
All those miracles are a combination of timing, correct movements, correct angles, extreme relaxation (can't tell you how an even undetectable tension in my shoulder can prevent me from doing a technique, and most of the times I don't feel that tension myself), beeing able to feel what goes on in you and your opponent and most of the times also playing with the mind of your opponent (in Aikido there is alot of it).
Of course this is just my opinion and many Masters will not agree with me, but to me that is CHI used in battle, not a mysterious energy that will come out at the right time to help you.


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## kempocat (Dec 12, 2007)

after doing standing QiGong meidatation as if holding a large ballon I noticed that my hands and arms repeled each other just as if they were apposing magnets . this was very strange to me so for years I kept conducting different different exsperiments to prove to my self if this is real or not I have also read books about this subject I have even produced this condition between my hands and had someone else place their hand in the middle to see what they felt with out explaining anything to them before and in most cases the feeling they felt was the same as what I felt
.
this condition is strongest when I am feeling well and the condition cannot be produced if I am angered
Is their someone in the internal arts world that would like to reflect on this? PM me if you would like
.
it has been said that this type of field can me used in energy healing any info is appreciated
thanks


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