# Kung fu demonstration against grappling



## The MMA kid! (Apr 20, 2006)

here is a really cool video that i saw. its a kung fu master that demonstrates the effectiveness of his art against grappling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZyeSScNH8Y

enjoy.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 20, 2006)

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> here is a really cool video that i saw. its a kung fu master that demonstrates the effectiveness of his art against grappling.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZyeSScNH8Y
> 
> enjoy.



I guess your baiting a reply from your fellow Chinese Martial Arts members.  Here is something to think about...

In reply, yes, and the grappler showed the effectiveness of his art against an unknown knife weilding bystander who decides to stab him in the back or slice his throat, or the friend who whacks him on the back of his head with a beer bottle or baseball bat.

Yes, cool video!  I might add... That was very effective and showed the intense realism of a self defense situation.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 20, 2006)

Before the UFC existed, there was a simple thing called "The Gracie Challenge". This video is from that pre-UFC era in Torrance. I believe this footage was later added to the "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu In Action, II" video.

The gung-fu practitioner, in his defense, lasted longer than most guys who came in for challenge matches at the time. He was a bit unbelieving after the first round, so opted to go for a second round (this actually happened a lot...no one wanted to believe that their years of training couldn't produce more substantial results against these uppity, skinny Brazilian yahoos). He was respectful, but one of his students was being a smarty-pants, so one of the Gracie brothers (I think it was Royce) says in Brazilian at the onset of the 2nd match, "turn the screws a little tighter". That usually means hit, not slap, harder and longer before going for the choke or submission.

I get a kick out of this video, as you can see a couple of my old kenpo students in the background who switched to the Gracies after their exposure, and eventually turned me on to training in BJJ. In the second match, left hand side of the screen...red-haired kid with pony-tail, and two people to the viewer left of him, his father (Jason and Joe Darrow, respectively). The fathers brother (Danny Darrow) has become a reputable BJJ instructor, while pretty much all the sons and nephews have become skilled grapplers in their own rights, several active in religious ministry.

As a BJJ-er in defense of Chinese arts...I spent a wee bit of time training with some very talented CMA gents over the years (I'm being facetious...I spent a lot of time); I didn't see any of what I recognize as CMA used by the guy in the challenge match. I think he was a poor representation of what's possible.

As to the opposite side of the fence...the argument that it doesn't reflect defense...this has always struck me as silly. The Brazilians -- and those of us who chose to adopt their martial lifestyle at various points for a time -- had a simple "anyone, anytime, anywhere" attitude before the paychecks from MMA events got in the way of it. In the course of the many brawls ensuing out of this commitment, do you honestly believe that no silly wrassler has ever encountered multiples, weapons, knock-dow/drag-out brawls with no time limits, rules refs, etc.? Once again -- none of them (except the kids who don't know better or can't think straight due to endocrine/testosterone imbalances) think they are bullet-proof. Just users of a different approach to personal combat.

And of course the silliest part about claims regarding all the what-ifs that could go wrong in a street altercation...they can happen to a CMA, JMA, kenpo/kempo, JKD, Muay Thai, or whatever guy just as easily as they can to a grappler. I've done both, fought with both (and blends) in the road for my life (literally), and am still convinced that victory is as much due to luck as it is preparation, with the caveat that chance favors the prepared mind. I've had to quit grappling because of my joints and back, but I wouldn't trade the learning or the experience(s) for all the tea in China.

Best Regards, and don't let the trolls get to ya. There's more important fish to fry, including preparing your own minds to be favored by chance.

Dave


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## Flying Crane (Apr 20, 2006)

I'm curious to know what kind of reaction you were hoping for, by posting this in the CMA section, with this kind of title?  Just what motivated you?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 20, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I'm curious to know what kind of reaction you were hoping for, by posting this in the CMA section, with this kind of title? Just what motivated you?


 
Most likely, exactly what you suspect. :feedtroll


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 20, 2006)

Not to take anything away from the gracie's but I always thought much of the compatition in the early days was "played up" with thitles that  may not have exsisted or didn't really mean much. There wher players in varries martial arts that i thought could have put on a better showing


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## Flying Crane (Apr 20, 2006)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Most likely, exactly what you suspect. :feedtroll


 
yeah, just wondered if I'd hear it from the horse's mouth.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 20, 2006)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Not to take anything away from the gracie's but I always thought much of the compatition in the early days was "played up" with thitles that may not have exsisted or didn't really mean much. There wher players in varries martial arts that i thought could have put on a better showing


 
The early challenges had a couple of fronts. There were the ones that actually made it to the Gracies. Some of the more interesting ones (in terms of people who took them) never got taped, or...famous guys with more to lose would do a private challenge match with a Gracie student to see if they could spot the glitches and capitalize on them. I did a couple of these; they were always, always, always unapproved by Rorion or the other brothers, and one risked being booted out of the fold for such participation. 

There were more than a few martial arts celebs who tied up with a Gracie or student behind closed doors, later to decide to learn the stuff. We had some pretty good CMA and FMA guys come by (dumog, etc.), and a couple of Pan-Am and Olympic greco-roman and freestyle top-level competitors. Typically, the wrestlers gave the best fights, but didn't have the finishing moves. One of my old bouncing and grappling buddies signed up with a wrestling coach in So. Cal., who was hired to go to the Gracie compound and teach wrestling transitions while Rorion was still a boy. So for the Gracies, they had seen the wrestling before; the wrestlers hadn't seen the judo-type finishing holds the Gracies were using, so they didn't know the strategic liabilities they would place themselves in during various positions & transitions.

We also had some champion kickboxers come through; they were actually among the easiest. Break your face with a jab if you stand there, but that's the whole point. We don't.

One night, we had this huge ex-con come by who had read about the Gracie challenge in prison, and was flaming mad about it. Came by, and Craig Krukuk (sp?) took this guy more than twice his size in less than 10 seconds. The guy was a specimen who knew how to wrestle, but again, lacked finishes. No video; no titles or buildup; no refs or rules (the ex-con was out to hurt someone)...just a visually amazing feat of jits. (shot on the guy, the guy pushed down on Krukuks head & sprawled, Krukuk, went further down than the guy pressed then crawled between the guys legs to get behind him, climbed him like a ladder from behind to put on a mata leon on him while he was still upright and in the sprawl position -- happened so fast, it didn't register yet that Krukuk wasn't there to push on anymore. The guy was tapping while falling backwards towards the ground).

There were those of us who speculated that it would only be a matter of time before the competitive athletic spirit of the Americans, or the technology cloning expertise of the Japanese would produce fighters in each place that would challenge the Gracies more than they had been thus far. Now, with the MMA explosion more than a dozen years in progress, we have seen each come true.

My ultimate conclusion, having done some mat-work in Judo and David German's TAI karate before starting BJJ, was that the Gracies were so successful against other arts because we essentially grew up in a vacuum. Few martial artists had previously seen a grappler of this type, much less tested themselves against one, much less trained hard in a similar discipline. Contrast this to the Gracies who live it from infancy.  American martial arts had built a house, but forgot to put in the back wall. We just didn't know it, because (up till the Gracies), folks would walk up and knock on the front door. Then they came along, and shot through the missing wall to everyones shock and surprise. 

Now, with "MMA' actually being a style that you can find a school for (15 years after no one heard of it), it's not surprising anymore. The shock value is gone, and current martial artists are either cross-training in grappling, or adding grappling attacks to their "what-if" training. But you gotta remember...when the Gracies first started this, unless you were unfortunate enough to anger Gene LeBelle, pretty much nobody had seen a wrassler fight in this manner. We (as a stand-up fighter) were all sure we could get our shots in before anyone got their hands on us. To boot, I fought with champion wrestlers in high school, and bloodied them well while evading their take-downs...so I was sure I could take one of these Brazilian upstarts.

What else can you say; it was new. We didn't know. With 3 months at the Torrance academy, I wrestled with the LAPD combat wrestling instructor for the academy...a guy who is my senior in kenpo, and a decent wrassler on top of it. Best 2 out of 3. Wait, 3 out of five. Wait...what did you do? He went on to train with the Machado's and leave me in the dirt skills-wise, and now we see mount and guard fighting in LAPD training cirriculum.

In the first UFC, Zane Frazier was slated to fight. A kenpo tournament champ I knew was a buddy of his, and he kept touting how awesome Frazier was, and how he was going to clean up and whoop on Royce. He never made it through his first elimination, and lost to a crappy headlock by a chubby kickboxer with no grappling training...technology nowhere near the same plane as the Gracies stuff. That kenpo guy has gone on to learn grappling, and become a much better ground fighter than I have any business hoping to be. With his commitment to training, I expect to see him rocket to the top real soon. We just didn't know any better then.

Some of the CMA guys I trained with in Laguna Beach & Orange County...we had mini-challenge matches. Guys I know could pepper me like a fool standing up, couldn't figure out what to do to stop anti-rhythem shoots & take-downs. Outstanding artists upright, they couldn't get their heads wrapped around the mount. Things that make sense on paper, don't make as much sense with your back on the cement, legs grapevined, and face & upper arms smeared under a chest. It doesn't take a thing away from who they were, or the strength of their accomplishments. It was just new. It was territory not accounted for in their systems, training history, or technique library. Now, it's a different story. I shoot, I feel sharp blinding pains pop up on my body, and he ain't there to grab where I thought he was. Not new anymore.

Train Hard,

Dave


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## dmax999 (Apr 20, 2006)

Its just an example of someone who trains realistically, and works on a set of simple moves to the point of perfection.

Any art practiced like that would be effective in most cases. I think we can agree the kung-fu guy in the video hadn't done either. Most of the videos posted about BJJ vs. kung-fu are usually against a poor example of kung-fu.

Anyways, with MMA no one can really claim one style dominates anymore. In addition more and more UFC fights are ending in KOs standing up, which to me means defending against the takedowns is far easier to train then defending against a good striker. Back in the early UFC days strikers refused to defend against take-downs thinking their punches and kicks would win for them.

I have to agree with previous poster about wrestlers. They seem to always dominate everyone from the clench on but lack finishing moves and end up losing because of it. They lack that part of the realistic training.


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## AceHBK (Apr 21, 2006)

Great read by Kembudo!!

I will say that the whole this is nothing more than the what came first the chicken or the egg debate.
WHne you have a video like this or any video muchless with 2 people of 2 different arts, it will always go like this:

Whoever lost, the people of that art will say that they are not a good representative of that art.

So if the BJJ guy lost then MMA people would have said he wasnt a good representative of that art, someone else woulda..blah, blah, blah....


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## yipman_sifu (Apr 21, 2006)

What is this. Why he posted such a thing in here?!. I wonder about posting *Goodfellas* in here too?????:ultracool , go to the BJJ or MMA section and posted it there *OK*. He wanted to convince us. Can I know who was this guy in black or what is his name. Was it Master?!.

Listen, chinese martial arts are far beyond in history, and all your BJJ and Jujitsu came from it. Regarding the say that real fights ends in the ground, that's not true. This is only regarding unqualified fighters who allow those BJJ to take them down like this guy we just saw. A real fighter you will hit to death before you may even recognize what is happening.

Man, people just post nonsence clips and just start to be satisfied, grow up Pal.

Regarding Royce Gracie, He is a real talented fighter and I have my own respect to the man, but doesn't mean that you use his popularity and respect to demean others, I personally beleive we are all grown ups to understand such an issue.


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## Odin (Apr 21, 2006)

dmax999 said:
			
		

> Its just an example of someone who trains realistically, and works on a set of simple moves to the point of perfection.
> 
> Any art practiced like that would be effective in most cases. I think we can agree the kung-fu guy in the video hadn't done either. Most of the videos posted about BJJ vs. kung-fu are usually against a poor example of kung-fu.
> 
> ...


 
WOW,bro you just got put in my book as my fav poster on this site.
Look forward to reading more!


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## Tony (Apr 29, 2006)

Just because this guy lost does not mean to say Kung fu is useless against grappling. In my Style we do sanshou so we do some grappling too and even before i studied any art i coudl think of ways to escape from such holds because my friends used to bundle me after football! One friend woudl pin me so i'd simply bite him somewhere! The kung fu guy didn't use many techniques at all! he just waited to be pounced on! The Grappler set up the tackle by faking a kick and the kung fu guy didn't know how to react. I guess there were rules so he wasn't allowed to grab the grapplers groin or use any eye gouges or even punches while he was still standing! Hell if someone wanted to try and grapple with me on the street i would do all i could from my wealth of Martial Arts knowledge to get away even if its dirty! This is one of the reasons I don't liek to enter competitions because of the rules.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 29, 2006)

Tony said:
			
		

> Just because this guy lost does not mean to say Kung fu is useless against grappling. In my Style we do sanshou so we do some grappling too and even before i studied any art i coudl think of ways to escape from such holds because my friends used to bundle me after football! One friend woudl pin me so i'd simply bite him somewhere! The kung fu guy didn't use many techniques at all! he just waited to be pounced on! The Grappler set up the tackle by faking a kick and the kung fu guy didn't know how to react. I guess there were rules so he wasn't allowed to grab the grapplers groin or use any eye gouges or even punches while he was still standing! Hell if someone wanted to try and grapple with me on the street i would do all i could from my wealth of Martial Arts knowledge to get away even if its dirty! This is one of the reasons I don't liek to enter competitions because of the rules.


 
Good points, but don't forget a simple reality many others do: Grapplers can bite and gouge eyes too. These are harder to defend against if he's choked you out in addition.


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## 7starmantis (Apr 29, 2006)

I watched the video and I saw nothing resembling chinese kung fu.

7sm


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## Makalakumu (Apr 30, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I watched the video and I saw nothing resembling chinese kung fu.
> 
> 7sm


 
The guy basically did nothing to defend himself.  Royce dominated the entire time.  I really like watching Royce roll though.  He gets good position so easily and naturally.  Has anyone on here had the opportunity to roll with Royce?


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## yipman_sifu (Apr 30, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> The guy basically did nothing to defend himself. Royce dominated the entire time. I really like watching Royce roll though. He gets good position so easily and naturally. Has anyone on here had the opportunity to roll with Royce?


 
Only fighters who really trainned hard in any system would have won Royce. Not the one or two year of training, because Royce was borned to learn Jujitsu. He was grasping the moves and learning until it became a part of him. Although I am a Wing Chun trainer who loves Chinese martial arts and beleive it is the best. Royce is still a very capable fighter who can defeat even Chinese martial artist who thinks that grappling is a joke. Royce is really good. 

Like each era was for a martial arts, as Wing Chun was very popular in 50's to 60's and people said it was the best. BJJ of Royce, Rickson reached it's top in the mid 80's to the 90's and had astonishing results, no one can deny that.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 30, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> Only fighters who really trainned hard in any system would have won Royce. Not the one or two year of training, because Royce was borned to learn Jujitsu. He was grasping the moves and learning until it became a part of him. Although I am a Wing Chun trainer who loves Chinese martial arts and beleive it is the best. Royce is still a very capable fighter who can defeat even Chinese martial artist who thinks that grappling is a joke. Royce is really good.
> 
> Like each era was for a martial arts, as Wing Chun was very popular in 50's to 60's and people said it was the best. BJJ of Royce, Rickson reached it's top in the mid 80's to the 90's and had astonishing results, no one can deny that.


 
And that is the simple truth.  Royce is really really really good.  In order to even get close to touching him, you had better train your *** off decades and train effectively.  Should it really surprise people that the better fighter won?  That is the way it should happen.


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## yipman_sifu (Apr 30, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> And that is the simple truth. Royce is really really really good. In order to even get close to touching him, you had better train your *** off decades and train effectively. Should it really surprise people that the better fighter won? That is the way it should happen.


 
You know why you need to train a hell to defeat him?. Very simple, because he trained a hell hell hell to grapple and send you down in, such Royce was training really hard when those competitors of UFC were once mad boys that hanged out, played in bars,discos, and american football. I think that Royce mentalitiy in the UFC was that he must win those bully boys who did nothing when he was a kid training hard along with Rickson (older brother). I beleive that his determination was very high and was well disciplined when he started his fighting life. Well, he is a legend.


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## 7starmantis (Apr 30, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> The guy basically did nothing to defend himself. Royce dominated the entire time. I really like watching Royce roll though. He gets good position so easily and naturally. Has anyone on here had the opportunity to roll with Royce?



Exactly, he did absolutely nothing and Royce did; thus the turnout. Even when rolling with Royce he did nothing. I saw nothing that could be described as CMA or any style for that matter, he didn't do a thing. 

I train with a guy who fought undercard in a few UFC events and he has rolled with Royce, he said its like water. Royce has the principles of it down so well, he said it doesn't matter which way you go he's allready there.

7sm


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## yipman_sifu (Apr 30, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Exactly, he did absolutely nothing and Royce did; thus the turnout. Even when rolling with Royce he did nothing. I saw nothing that could be described as CMA or any style for that matter, he didn't do a thing.
> 
> I train with a guy who fought undercard in a few UFC events and he has rolled with Royce, he said its like water. Royce has the principles of it down so well, he said it doesn't matter which way you go he's allready there.
> 
> 7sm


 
I liked something about the Royce fighting concepts. It is like Wing Chun when it comes to not use force against force. He was able to use opponents force against them even if they weighted above 250Ibs. That's really nice and logical.


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## green meanie (Apr 30, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> I liked something about the Royce fighting concepts. It is like Wing Chun when it comes to not use force against force. He was able to use opponents force against them even if they weighted above 250Ibs. That's really nice and logical.


 
That's how Jujitsu's supposed to be, it is the art of 'Ju' after all. But it's certainly not the only art to apply this philosophy to their fighting strategy.


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## yipman_sifu (Apr 30, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> That's how Jujitsu's supposed to be, it is the art of 'Ju' after all. But it's certainly not the only art to apply this philosophy to their fighting strategy.


 
Wing Chun, Jujitsu, Aikido, Tai Chi (but not as the normal way, very advanced), and Hapkido. 

They all use the same concepts of borrowing force.


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## mantis (May 1, 2006)

haha
that's hilarious
contemporary wushu that is! 
this guy was overwhelmed that he did not know what to do. he was busy trying not to go on the ground, and he forgot all the organs that he could have hit. oh man, that was a perfect "steal the peach" situation, hand, groin, done!
poor guy!

what i think is totally not fair is the commentator. who told that guy that kung fu only trains ONE group of techniques!  

it was funny tho.. thanks for rubbing it in our faces!


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