# Talking bad about Hwarang Do



## Hwarang

Since I'm alone in defending Hwarang Do here :duel: it would be nice to hear if there are people out there with other opinions than the few people talking bad.

Anyway, Hwarang Do has received it's share of bad press on the Internet, mainly through people who were low ranking blackbelts years and years ago.
I'd like to go through these stories here in it's own thread, otherwise the other threads are getting too muddled. I'm not a spokesman for World Hwa Rang Do Association however, and questions should be directed to whrda@hwarangdo.com, but I'll do my best to reply to some of these stories as they come up.


Bob D rambling in the "Hwa rang Do - Kook Sul Won connection?" thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11884):
>> The reasons that there are so few schools has to do with a great system being watered down, promotions gien without ability or enough time behind them, arrogant leaders, abusive leaders, money, fees, more money, and a general lack of mutual respect from leaders. <<

That's interesting Bob! You were training Hwarang Do - what 15-20 years ago? What rank were you? Did you spend a lot of time in Los Angeles when you were in Hwarang Do? Tell us something about what Hwarang Do is today, if you were a what dan(?) 20 years ago you must be an expert! Just because you don't do something for 20 years it doesn't that mean you don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about, right?

How would you say Hwarang Do has been watered down? (watered down since you trained of course, the old days were always much better...). You mean the new material and the weapons for color belts were a big step down?
I tested for 1.dan in 89, 3.dan in 98. It that very fast?
How are the leaders arrogant and abusive? 
How much did you pay when you trained? "money, fees, more money" must be a lot of money!
In the thread you also called Hwarang Do a cult and a business cult, let's hear about that!

See, now you get to tell people what you mean.

>> Any talent that went through the system has left <<

Thanks, that means I don't have any talent  
Anyway, just because someone is not teaching, it doesnt mean they "have left", lot's of the black belts visit GM Lee. But it's true, there are so few Hwarang Do black belts (http://www.hwarangdo.com/certif.htm) that it can certainly be felt when someone stops training/teaching.
I think the people who stop training (Hwarang Do or any other system) does so for various reasons. When an instructor forms his own organization most of the students follows the instructor rather than the style. This is no different in Hwarang Do from any other style. Last year the Scandinavian Ving Tsun organizations broke off from their old central organization, and all the students and instructors followed. That's how things works. Do you think there is *one* reason why people have left Hwarang Do?


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## dohap

You're right in some points, there are different reasons to leave HRD.
If You got Qs about what belts left hrd, please answer Yourself, who were: Peter Kim, Klaus Wachsmann, Eric Lee, just to name a few and not only from the old days.

Maybe the reasons are very deep? Maybe not only politics, but also true about people in WHRDA? About their "real" faces, different from these seen at web sites?

I'm sorry to say this, but what You call "headquarters"? A school, where half-black belts are teaching? Or foreign Instructors?
If there are any true talents there, tell me names.
Eric Lee? ups, sorry... not anymore...


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## Hwarang

Sure there are many different reasons why people stop training, Hwarang Do and any other MA.

Apart from Peter Kim I have meet the people you mention, but I was training in Los Angeles shortly after it happened, so I can tell you that all three's reasons for not beeing in WHRDA are as different as they can be.

>> tell me names <<

Who are you?


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## dohap

I know these reasons.


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## Bob D.

Carsten your replies are pathetic. Because you don't seem to read well...I have studied Hwa Rang Do from 1979 to '86 then again from 1991 till today. So yes I have expertise.
You live in Denmark...how many hours have you spent with an instuctor of HRD?
When it comes to American instructors of HRD you have no clue what your talking about at all, so stay out of it!


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## Bob D.

BTW. I have never talked bad about the art. I obviously love the art.  I don't really see anyone talking bad about the art.

Oh, and your comment about "low ranking blackbelts" is a joke!
I would pay to see you teach any one of them something.




(Mod Note: edited on user request)


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Hwarang _
> *Since I'm alone in defending Hwarang Do here *



I've heard good things about the system itself. It's the backstory that gets called into question.


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## Touch Of Death

Iv'e read that HRD Is a system that basicly borrows from other systems; because the Hwrang warrors were weapons specialists. As far as empty handed fighting goes, it originaly wasn't there, because after all they guarded the king. I can see where Korean stylists might look upon HRD as not legit.


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## Hwarang

>> You live in Denmark...how many hours have you spent with an instuctor of HRD? <<

I've been lucky enough that my study and work has given me time to train full time. So when you say "train with a Hwarang Do instructor" I assume you mean higher ranking than me:
From 1989 to 1990 I lived one year as a full time Hwarang Do student in GM Lee's school (6 months before testing for 1st dan and 6 months after), this was the same time Michael Hills, the Canadian chiefinstructor, lived there.
I have since been back for longer and shorter periods (from 2 months to a week), so all in all I lived on the school a year and a half. In addition I've lived close to two years in Korean Hwarang Do dojangs when I was in Korean Studies. So all in all about 3 1/3 years full time with higher ranking instructors than myself.

Now is the time when you say I'm too young to know what I'm talking about! Go on... 

>> When it comes to American instructors of HRD you have no clue what your talking about at all, so stay out of it! <<

You prefer talking about Hwarang Do with people who don't know Hwarang Do?

>> Oh, and your comment about "low ranking blackbelts" is a joke! <<

Ok then, what rank in Hwarang Do are you? What rank was your instructor in Hwarang Do?

What I'm saying is that some people in America are busy explaining people outside Hwarang Do all the things they think are wrong with the style (of course what they do is much, much better). They can explain in great detail what's missing, why things are wrong, how things should be done. But the last time they were active in Hwarang Do were years ago.
This is *not* to claim Hwarang Do is the ultimate system, different styles for different people, just that what someone trained 20 years ago is not necessarily the same today.

>> BTW. I have never talked bad about the art. I obviously love the art. I don't really see anyone talking bad about the art. <<

Yes, I love it too. I think it's a pretty cool style.

Thanks for your input Touch'O'Death

I'll be happy to reply, but could you please repost in one of the other Hwarang Do history threads? I'm trying to keep each discussion in it's separate thread. 
Thanks!


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## Bob D.

Boy, Thats a lot of time.

Me: 





> >> When it comes to American instructors of HRD you have no clue what your talking about at all, so stay out of it! <<





> You prefer talking about Hwarang Do with people who don't know Hwarang Do?



What does your comment have to do with mine??



> What I'm saying is that some people in America are busy explaining people outside Hwarang Do all the things they think are wrong with the style (of course what they do is much, much better).



Where does anyone say this?

 to answer your question about me: As far as HRD, I know the traditional syllabus to 3rd dan and then alot more. I've been training - teaching Martial arts the better part of the last 20 years. My dan certificates where signed by Master Jesse Lechuga and Master Gil Kim. I have trained extensively with Bob Duggan, Jesse Lechuga, Vicente Montenegro, Randy Wanner,  Ken Corona, and to a lesser degree  Kjn. Hyun Jun Lee, KJN. Gil Kim,  Kjn. Hwang. 
Rank has never been of importance to me, Knowledge has. I took from '80 to '83 to test thru to red belt, training 6 days a week. I was a working bodyguard  and teacher of security professionals, and was fighting full contact all during that time and thru to '86 when I went back to college. I came back to training with my instructors in late '91 and have not stopped training or teaching since.


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## Bob D.

Gosh, 10 days and no Carsten?


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## dohap

I'm sad too...


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## glad2bhere

I think it is worthwhile to stress a few things (even if Casten isn't here right now.) 

First off, as a system the HRD people seem to have things down pretty well. Their training is full-bodied and their criteria and quality control is excellent. I have come to really admire the emphasis they place on Character, Values and Deportment. In fact I would probably head over to the HRD school right here in Chicago except for one and only one fly in the ointment. That is Joo Bang Lee himself. 

1.) I have a problem with someone who identifies himself as "supreme grandmaster". There is no such title in the Korean culture and no provenance for such a title. In fact there is no such title as "grandmaster". The title "master" seems to derive from a westernization of the title "songsaenin" or teacher by using the antiquated term "school master" instead. 

2.) I have a problem with someone who invokes a tradition, identifies himself as part and parcel of that tradition ("57 grandmaster or inheritor") and then qualifies that nine ways from Sunday to make it fit rationally. 

3.) I have a problem with someone who speaks of Character development and then is so rigid in his thinking that he can't seem to get along with anyone including family members. 

4.) I have a problem with special uniforms and special weapons and exclusivity on training. The para-military approach bespeaks a kind of cultism inconsistent with the values of the community in which the art is being taught. 

Now, In closing let me say that I have nearly the exact complaints about the Kuk Sool people of the WKSWA. I am a true admirer of that system as well. Their quality control and their curriculum are fabulous. But if joining means that my personality begins to approximate many of the people I have met from there, its "thanks, but no thanks." 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## MichiganTKD

Hwa Rang Do did not exist until the 1960's. It certainly is not the direct descendant of the original Hwa Rang from 1500 years ago. Joo Bang Lee essentially lied to his students to claim credibility and lineage that he does not have. When pressed about the REAL background of his style, he hemmed and hawed and finally admitted that his version of Hwa Rang Do is a recent creation, having little if anything to do with authentic Korean history.
 I find it more than a little suspect that he claims to have studied under some monk to learn the techniques that form his style. It sounds like the plot to a bad martial arts film. In my opinion, Hwa Rang Do, Kuk Sool Won, and Hapkido are all basically the same style: circular movements, TKD kicking, obsolete weapons, goofy uniforms, and questionable histories.


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## Doc

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Hwa Rang Do did not exist until the 1960's. It certainly is not the direct descendant of the original Hwa Rang from 1500 years ago. Joo Bang Lee essentially lied to his students to claim credibility and lineage that he does not have. When pressed about the REAL background of his style, he hemmed and hawed and finally admitted that his version of Hwa Rang Do is a recent creation, having little if anything to do with authentic Korean history.
> I find it more than a little suspect that he claims to have studied under some monk to learn the techniques that form his style. It sounds like the plot to a bad martial arts film. In my opinion, Hwa Rang Do, Kuk Sool Won, and Hapkido are all basically the same style: circular movements, TKD kicking, obsolete weapons, goofy uniforms, and questionable histories.



Interesting comments, that I may at least partially attest to. In the early to mid-sixties in my interaction with Hap Ki Do Master Sea Oh Choi, who opened the first HKD school in the U.S., The Lee Brothers were both students of Choi teaching HKD in Huntington Park. When we visited, the one thing that was clear is that Choi was not happy with the quality of their HKD teaching and had many heated discussions with them, as he urged his students to physically show them what was wrong with what was being taught. Choi's top student was Henry Lewe, who routinely put a hurtin' on the Lee's and their  students.

It wasn't long before they broke away and established "modern Hawrangdo." I have seen some impressive demonstrations as recently as about 12 years ago, but I'm not really up to speed on where they are now in their teaching.

I have also had some interesting conversations with individuals who attempted to sale me the "ancient connection" not knowing I was there in their transition. I confirmed my memory with a class mate (Cliff Stewart) whose independent recollection is the same as mine.


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## MichiganTKD

Why am I not surprised? 
Also, Lee has taken to calling his color belt curriculum "Tae Soo Do" which must be practiced to black belt before "Modern Hwa Rang Do" is taught. Those who remember Tae Kwon Do history will know that Tae Soo Do was the name used by the KTA immediately preceding Tae Kwon Do. It has nothing at all to do with Hwa Rang Do. Not only that, but apparently Lee has copyrighted the name Tae Soo Do. Once again, he is trying to link "Hwa Rang Do" with a history it has nothing to do with.


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## Bujingodai

Personally I like some of the techniques that I have seen, mind you I have seen them in other arts as well.

I am not fond of the uniforms either. IMO they just seem to ceremonial looking and unpractical.

Other than that, the $$$ involved is what seemed to push me away from interest if my memory serves correct. But I am happy with what I do now.

Just my 2 cents.


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## arnisador

Not that it matters, but I always thought that their uniforms were very cool-looking. However, I can't disagree with "ceremonial and unpractical" at all!


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## Bob D.

Doc said:
			
		

> Interesting comments, that I may at least partially attest to. In the early to mid-sixties in my interaction with Hap Ki Do Master Sea Oh Choi, who opened the first HKD school in the U.S., The Lee Brothers were both students of Choi teaching HKD in Huntington Park. When we visited, the one thing that was clear is that Choi was not happy with the quality of their HKD teaching and had many heated discussions with them, as he urged his students to physically show them what was wrong with what was being taught. Choi's top student was Henry Lewe, who routinely put a hurtin' on the Lee's and their  students.
> 
> It wasn't long before they broke away and established "modern Hawrangdo." I have seen some impressive demonstrations as recently as about 12 years ago, but I'm not really up to speed on where they are now in their teaching.
> 
> I have also had some interesting conversations with individuals who attempted to sale me the "ancient connection" not knowing I was there in their transition. I confirmed my memory with a class mate (Cliff Stewart) whose independent recollection is the same as mine.



I've seen you claim this before. It does not wash with history. The Lee brothers where not here together in the 1960's. You must be thinking of someone else. Besides, they where both "Martial arts stars" in Korea by the mid 60's. They where never Se oh Choi's students. 
What HRD turned into after the 80's is a sad story, But I can assure you Choi or one of his students did not put a hurtin on Joo Sang Lee or Joo Bang Lee. It just did not happen. I know the players in question and the HRD students that where there full time in the 60's and 70's. I did not happen.


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## dosandojang

Bob Duggan makes a lot of sense though in his writings. Too many contradictions in HRD....


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## Kodanjaclay

Steve,

I agree... tell ya what... let's start from the beginning. What is right with it, and what is wrong with it. Remember, no system is perfect.


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## dosandojang

I support Bob D. From what I have read from him, they really did him wrong...


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## dosandojang

Well I am not claiming to know all of HRD, or to know more than any of the Lees. From what I know, they were very, very good at HKD. But from reading their stuff, and that of Bob, I feel that they really screwed him over. And the way they did him and others, is not how Martial Arts Grand Masters should be....


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## shesulsa

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Why am I not surprised?
> Also, Lee has taken to calling his color belt curriculum "Tae Soo Do" which must be practiced to black belt before "Modern Hwa Rang Do" is taught. Those who remember Tae Kwon Do history will know that Tae Soo Do was the name used by the KTA immediately preceding Tae Kwon Do. It has nothing at all to do with Hwa Rang Do. Not only that, but apparently Lee has copyrighted the name Tae Soo Do. Once again, he is trying to link "Hwa Rang Do" with a history it has nothing to do with.


Joo Bang Lee has alienated some great martial artists by denouncing their rank - I study with one regularly and another on occasion, one of whom lived at the Lee dojang for years (that's plural).  These men have been stripped of their rank according to WHRDA, then are accused of not teaching HRD - yet, as you say, "Tae Soo Do" is what is currently being taught in WHRDA dojangs everywhere and the syllabus my teachers learned is being taught as HRD to TSD black belts as an advanced course of study whereas we are still using HRD forms, techniques, etc.

How such an excellent fighting system can be so easily ruined is not difficult to see.  Pity.


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## dosandojang

"It sounds like the plot to a bad martial arts film. In my opinion, Hwa Rang Do, Kuk Sool Won, and Hapkido are all basically the Same style: circular movements, TKD kicking, obsolete weapons, goofy uniforms, and questionable histories."


 DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!


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## miguksaram

Bob D. said:
			
		

> Oh, and your comment about "low ranking blackbelts" is a joke!
> I would pay to see you teach any one of them something.
> 
> (Mod Note: edited on user request)



I would like for him to start with GM De Alba.


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## miguksaram

dosandojang said:
			
		

> I support Bob D. From what I have read from him, they really did him wrong...



Mst. Duggan, Mst. Kim, Mst. De Alba as well as a few other ex-HRD black belts were screwed over by the Lees.  This animosity on the Lees part, more Joo Bang Lee than the other, has dripped down to other HRD black belts who feel the need to comment against them without really knowing them.  This can be seen in some articles written in TKDTimes by the resident HRD expert, and by Carsten.  The bottom line is that only the "renegades" and the Lees know the true story.  I personally train under and work with GM De Alba and he has taken his love of HRD and has evolved it to its next level.

(please note I use the term 'ex-HRD blackbelts because they were "expelled" from HRD.  This is in no way to say that they have no skills, quite the contrary)


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## dosandojang

Sorry, but that is just WRONG to me! Take me for example, I hold a 5th Dan in Tang Soo Do. How can ANYONE EVER take that AWAY from me? They can kick me out of an Org, and they can even say my Rank is no longer valid to them, but they CANNOT take away what I earned! GM De Alba and those men, they are STILL Hwa Rang Do Black Belts! And they always will be!


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## kwanjang

GM DeAlba is a skillful and generous martial artists who has earned the respect of most he has touched in his career.  They can rip up his certificates, and they can call him whatever they wish; but, the bottom line is that his peers admire him for his accomplishments, his skills, and his warm and outgoing personality.  No one can take that away, not even the founders of the art. :asian:


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## glad2bhere

Dear Rudy et al: 

The comments here reminded me of a short period where GM Myung put me out of the WHF until things were sorted out and he took me back in. During that time I had this very low feeling that everything that I had worked for had been taken from me. It took quite a while to discover that this was an illusion and that I was still as good after the event as before. There was also a side-benefit, in that suddenly not having a GM to answer to gave me permission to investigate outside of the YON MU Kwan "box". I still train in YMK but I have considerably greater insight into WHY certain things are done within the broader context of KMA than had I continued to just follow the crowd "cuz GM said so". Philosophically I have found this to more neatly conform to the intent of YMK Hapkido with its stress on delving deeply into the art, than just following the set practice day-in and day-out.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Kodanjaclay

A belt is little more than a personal landmark.


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## shesulsa

miguksaram said:
			
		

> Mst. Duggan, Mst. Kim, Mst. De Alba as well as a few other ex-HRD black belts were screwed over by the Lees. This animosity on the Lees part, more Joo Bang Lee than the other, has dripped down to other HRD black belts who feel the need to comment against them without really knowing them. This can be seen in some articles written in TKDTimes by the resident HRD expert, and by Carsten. The bottom line is that only the "renegades" and the Lees know the true story. I personally train under and work with GM De Alba and he has taken his love of HRD and has evolved it to its next level.
> 
> (please note I use the term 'ex-HRD blackbelts because they were "expelled" from HRD. This is in no way to say that they have no skills, quite the contrary)


#1  I study under KSN Carmen Gallino who received his black belt from DJN Lee and KJN Ken Corona who also received his rank from DJN Lee (and who lived in his dojang for years).  They are also taking HRD to the next level and I couldn't be more pleased with what I am learning nor whom I am learning from.

#2 This might start a whole new thread, but...once a black belt is given, can it really be taken away?


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## glad2bhere

Dear She-Sulsa: 

".....This might start a whole new thread, but...once a black belt is given, can it really be taken away?...." 

In a word, "no". 

Certainly the SYMBOLS can be taken, stolen or lost. Certainly ones' membership in an organization can be rescinded. Certainly a teacher can disavow any knowledge of a former student and/or his actions. However, a legitimate rank, earned through due process imparts a change to the character of the individual which cannot be undone by anyone save the individual themselves. A "Black Belt", strictly speaking, is not a "thing" as much as an attitude and a value indicating that someone has dedicated their life to a particular interpretation (typically reflected from ones' teacher) of the Path. Using the term "Black Belt" is just a convenient way of identifying someone who has made that commitment. It also works the other way as well. Not all the Black Cotton Belting in the World will make a person a dedicated practitioner if they have not made such a commitment.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## MichiganTKD

Very true.

An Instructor can rescind the belt, the certificate, the recognition, and disavow the student as a member of his organization. However, the technique and changed body and mind are still there. Technically, the person could physically teach technique, he would just would have no authorization to do so. I've seen it happen. However, there will always be some organization that would take him, give him rank and recognition, and let him teach for them.


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## Doc

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Very true.
> 
> An Instructor can rescind the belt, the certificate, the recognition, and disavow the student as a member of his organization. However, the technique and changed body and mind are still there. Technically, the person could physically teach technique, he would just would have no authorization to do so. I've seen it happen. However, there will always be some organization that would take him, give him rank and recognition, and let him teach for them.



Let's face it. First there is no one organization in any martial discipline that has an exclusive right to determine who is or isn't a particular rank. It simply doesn't exist. That authoritive extends only to those within the individual organization who choose to agree to allow the organization to make those decisions for them. Once an individual removes themself fom the organization, they take with them all that they have learned and accomplished good and/or bad. Organizations may choose to not recognize belts, and certificates but if you choose to longer be in the group, or the group no longer wants you, it means nothing except to those still in that group.

I think most give these organizations way too much power out of necessity in exchange for their recognition. If you're good, know what you're doing, and can demonstrate it, it really doesn't matter. A good teacher will always attract students. The only thing that matters to that student is the guy that stands in front of them and teaches them every night. If they're happy, why should they give a rats behind what some organization that probably has like most its share of some really lousy ranking people thinks anyway?

I went to college and graduated. I become a muderer which my university does not condone. I'm still a university graduate - even sitting on death row. You can't unring a bell. As an organization once you take a guys money and ring the bell - Live with it and be more careful next time.

Duh!


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## shesulsa

Doc said:
			
		

> I went to college and graduated. I become a muderer which my university does not condone. I'm still a university graduate - even sitting on death row. You can't unring a bell. As an organization once you take a guys money and ring the bell - Live with it and be more careful next time.
> 
> Duh!


Well, even if you don't become a murderer the degree can't be rescinded...isn't that why the black belt test should be so difficult AND so carefully considered?

In the WHRDA case of these "expelled" black belts - Ed Parker had students he had disagreements with as to direction of the art...he didn't "expel" them or "demote" them or rescind their rank - he just sent them on their way with a wish for good luck.  

So, I ask this question sans negativity, sans accusation, sans disrespect: I only ask just for discussion and consideration:

Why can't Do Joo Nim Lee do the same here?


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## arnisador

College degrees can be rescinded, though even for murderers it isn't often done.


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## shesulsa

dosandojang said:
			
		

> Sorry, but that is just WRONG to me! Take me for example, I hold a 5th Dan in Tang Soo Do. How can ANYONE EVER take that AWAY from me? They can kick me out of an Org, and they can even say my Rank is no longer valid to them, but they CANNOT take away what I earned! GM De Alba and those men, they are STILL Hwa Rang Do Black Belts! And they always will be!


Right on!


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## SageGhost83

arnisador said:


> On the one hand, I grant that that doesn't seem plausible, and in my gut I've never truly believed it...on the other hand, where are the authentic Native American arts? Look at how few African arts survive. Arts die out--it happens.
> 
> There's just not much evidence of Korean arts surviving in other than document form--pictures passed down from earlier times, recreated in the way Pankration has been.


 
Actually, you'd be surprised how many styles are still alive and well, but kept hidden from the mainstream of society. There are native american and african arts that survive to this very day, they are just not advertised and sold as some sort of business. Not every culture wants to be exploited like that, some hold on to their arts and customs and keep it all "within the clan", so to speak. Honestly, why would native americans or africans want to share their arts with us anyways? We haven't exactly been nice to them throughout our history. An art is never officially dead until nobody practices it, period. Do you know every single person or family on the face of this planet? Furthermore, do you know what every single person or family on the face of this planet practices behind closed doors? I certainly know that I don't, which is why I never make beyond-the-shadow-of-a-doubt judgments - especially when the subject in question is outside of my own country and/or culture. I learned quickly to never say never because things are not always what they seem. As long as somebody somewhere is practicing it and preserving it, then neither an art or culture is dead, it just isn't mainstream and open for exploitation.


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## Omar B

Martial arts nerd I am my interest on this whole Hwa Rang Do and Sulsa piqued my interest and I thought I would dig around and check it out.  I emailed them through their website asking if what I heard about having to renounce other styles of martial arts to test for a black belt and yes it's true.  I'm sure it works great for some people studying one art but I firmly believe that most martial artists want to step outside their main style and see what else is out there.  As awesome a style it might be I cannot sacrifice years of training in 3 styles for 1.

My brother in law got all excited about this whole thing too "Korean ninjas, damn cool, lets join" was what he said.  He's my MA buddy, we train together, so we are both pretty disappointed about the whole thing.  We both have no interest in mixing styles or creating a new style or teaching, our interest is merely in studying for the art itself.  Oh well, knowing both of us we'll figure out a way.


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## SageGhost83

Omar B said:


> I emailed them through their website asking if what I heard about having to renounce other styles of martial arts to test for a black belt and yes it's true.


 
Man, that is horrible! I think that having to renounce your other styles to earn a black belt is just plain shameful. Suddenly I have changed my mind about wanting to train in Hwarangdo :xtrmshock! Didn't Choi try to make people from other kwans renounce their training when they joined his taekwondo or something, too? I smell nationalism, xenophobia, and inferiority complex...and it is coming from Korea's general direction.


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## shesulsa

It's extreme filial piety and there are people who didn't want to forsake their prior or extraneous training just to stay with WHRDA. So they left.


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## exile

SageGhost83 said:


> Man, that is horrible! I think that having to renounce your other styles to earn a black belt is just plain shameful. Suddenly I have changed my mind about wanting to train in Hwarangdo :xtrmshock! *Didn't Choi try to make people from other kwans renounce their training when they joined his taekwondo or something, too?* I smell nationalism, xenophobia, and inferiority complex...and it is coming from Korea's general direction.



Not only that, Omar. If you take a look at this month's _Black Belt_, there is an interview with Gm. Kim (Pyung) Soo of the Chang Moo Kwan by Rob McLain, one of our own MT members, a student of Gm. Kim's. Gm. Kim reports that when Gen. Choi was top-ranking army officer in the ROK military during the Korean War, he offered students and instructors the following rather bleak choice: abandon your own kwan, sign on the dotted Oh Do Kwan line, and get a safe posting, or stick with your own school and wind up on the front lines. It's all there; you can read about it in the January BB. 

'Style-chauvinism' is an old tradition in the MAs; look at the typically fatal _kakedemishi_ duels fought by samurai from rival fencing schools during the time of Musashi Miyamoto. The famous 'shock block' duel between Anko Itosu and Naha-no-Tomoyose, where Itosu went to Naha  and wound up (but in some version of the story, for the express purpose of) fighting a match with Tomoyose, who apparently had been dissing Shuri-style karate as a combat art, in the course of which he snapped Tomoyose's arm with a 'shock block', ending the match, is another famous instance (check out this article, ftn. 7, for a brief account; there are others out there as well, all basically in agreement). But there's no question that there was an awful lot of this in Korea. It's very hard to get people to talk about inter-Kwan rivalry and kakemishi style violence, but Gm. Kim has a particularly hair-raising story about that in his _BB_ article. It wasn't all stylistic fanaticism, there were economic competition issues too, but definitely it was a very sectarian, ugly scene.


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## Omar B

Yeah, totally shocking.  Not to mention a pretty bad business model.  Most of us here train in more than 1 style.  We cross train for our own reasons, mine is that I like learning the differences in styles, when I train in another style I don't dilute them or combine them but learn them as separate entities.  Disallowing cross training in my opinion is just closing your dojang's doors to people who want to come in and learn.  If the art's so awesome people will renounce their previous styles *by choice*, not force, coercion.  I pay for a serivce, for a martial arts coach, not someone who tries to take controle of my life outside the dojang.

I gotta say that I never had to sign a paper to become a serf of Mas Oyama or Tadashi Nakamora but I do have great respect for them and would never turn my back on any of what I've learned from them.  Not for the single most devastating lessons in bas-assness would let me say "I started karate at 5 and now at 27 I think I'm gonna see what this so and so is trying to sell."


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## Omar B

Yesterday my brother in law and I was in the living room talking about this whole thing again and my sister came walking in, heard what we were saying and said "What are they a damn cult?"  I explained the whole thing to her and she laughed at how ridiculous it was.  

Closeing people out because they don't want to "renounce" their other martial arts is crazy and Filial Piety amounts to ancestor worship and it seems gets spun into way too much loyalty to some dude because of his position of power.  

Hey, if I'm paying, I'm the boss here, your my employee, just like a personal trainer, I'm not gonna go sign some cultish contract of loyalty.  My respect is not signed away, it's earned, I and all my other instructors have had great relationships through mutual respect.  There's no coercion or force or contract involved.

Can you imagine if every teacher required you to forget what you've learned before?  6th grade math would look exactly like first grade math.

I don't believe in sacrifices, because a sacrifice if giving up a greater value for a lesser one, or non.  It would do them well to get rid of that contract because reading it just gives me the creeps that someone would willingly sign something as monstrous as that.


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## tellner

When someone says "We are the best. We are the greatest. If you compare us to anything else we will throw you out, take away your status and deny you every existed" it means precisely one thing. The person saying it is afraid he will suffer by comparison and wants blind obedience and worship to support his own ego. It doesn't matter when or where it's said. That's what it comes down to. I've seen it in just about every martial art and in fields as diverse as painting, political science, philosophy and cooking. It's the surest way to make something lifeless and irrelevant, and it's always a darned shame.

In the case of TKD a lot of praise is rightly heaped on the founders for taking what they started with and adding the bits and pieces of Korean martial arts that were still around, Chinese boxing and so on and experimenting with them. They created something new and valuable. That's how a martial art progresses. The people who then close off that door to their own students are doing their schools, their martial art and ultimately themselves no service.


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## Omar B

Well said man.  Most martial artists would want to go in and study, not to adapt, change or add to the art, but to study it as it is.  Denying this just closes it off and makes it unpalatable.  Maybe it's a fear of comparison, but then comparison's a good thing.  It enables us to choose the right service or product to suit our need, we don't all drive gray Hondas.


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## Kacey

Omar B said:


> Well said man.  Most martial artists would want to go in and study, not to adapt, change or add to the art, but to study it as it is.  Denying this just closes it off and makes it unpalatable.  Maybe it's a fear of comparison, but then comparison's a good thing.  It enables us to choose the right service or product to suit our need, we don't all drive gray Hondas.


Indeed.  I may not agree with whatever variant/school/instructor/whatever variable you choose, but that doesn't mean you can't do it.  Variety is the spice of life, and, while, in the short run, the proliferation of places many of us disagree with is incredibly annoying, in the long run, market forces will come to bear, and they will change or go under.  In the meantime, throwing tomatoes is a waste of good tomatoes!

To go back to the original question, I know very little about ninjitsu, and even less about sulsa, so I don't find myself qualified to judge programs in either, other than using the general advice posted in several threads in the Beginner's Corner.  That being the case, I would love to hear more from those who know about the details that make each of these arts unique.


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## Omar B

I did some digging and calling around (it's the journalist in me) and I've found a couple HRD instructors who told me in no uncertain terms that they don't mind my crosstraining, nor do they require the signing of that contract.  Not only that, but it's close to my house.  

So even his own instructors don't hold to his crazy person rules.


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## BillE

From all that I've seen and heard about this school, it seems to behave very much like a cult. In fact, it is a cult. The martial art known as "Hwa Rang Do" may very well be effective and valid, but the school itself with its policies, "Bylaws" and methods of indoctrinating and controlling students while at the same time sucking money out of them is very much like a cult. I'm glad that so many instructors have left it and gone on to teach the art independently, hopefully without the cult-like rules and mindless devotion to cult leader Joo Bang Lee. This is modern day America, not ancient Korea. We have no feudal lords here, and the sooner those in Hwa Rang Do realize this and change accordingly, the better.


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## BillE

Hwa Rang do is a cult, plain and simple. And Joo Bang Lee is the cult leader. This organization meets all the criteria for being regarded as a cult.


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## Steve

How is it more of a cult than budo taijutsu or BJJ?


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## Gweilo

Ha Rang Do was created by Joe Bang Lee, whose family fled modern day north Korea, trained under  Yong sul Choi's early form of modern Hapkido, to cut a long story short was a deeply spiritual man, in 1955 attained a master level under Choi, bur continued his spiritual studies under Suahan Dosa, after failing to unite Korean arts at his own expense created his own style Ha Rang Do, in 1972 emigrated to the USA,
In the US, his students found the concept of spiritual training very difficult, and had much less training time due to work and family life back then to comprehend, so he simplified the art to suit his new students.
After a time he decided to take students that wanted to learn the art in its entirety, into a situation where they could embrace the arts four fundemental principles of training, implementing over 4000 techniques,  combining internal power, external power, mental power, and weapon power, and in order to achieve this, students needed to be away from modern life and it's pressures.
I do not know if the arts you speak of are actual cults, or if they are under the principles of master Joo Bang Lee, but I thought it necessary to inform you of the man's teaching philosophies,  of being completely immersed in the art, and away from modern distractions in order to master it. By the way never trained in the art, but did learn about it of my own free will, as it shares it's history with Hapkido and it's documented founder.


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## drop bear

Steve said:


> How is it more of a cult than budo taijutsu or BJJ?



Having read through the thread I would say being forced to renounce other arts is a pretty big step.


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## Tez3

I hate old threads like this, they remind me of old friends who are no longer on here, ah @exile, you are very missed.


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## BillE

I don't know about the other art you mentioned but BJJ does not forbid it's students from learning other martial arts or associating with people who are involved with other martial arts while HWD does. This has the effect of limiting the information that a student may consume or have access to, thus controlling this thinking.This is typical of most cults. Members are discouraged from looking at any information that might lead them to question the value of the teachings imparted by the cult, which is in this case, Hwa Rang Do.  Furthermore, Joo Bang Lee claimed to have supernatural powers which is a hallmark of a cult leader. His word is bible and anybody who disagrees or thinks differently is committing heresy. HWD requires members to sign contracts that would require them to pay fines upwards of 50,000 dollars in damages if they should do or say anything that is embarrassing to the HWD art...which really means brand. This is a way of controlling it's members by silencing them via the threat of fines. No BJJ school does this. Nor does any BJJ instructor make claims of supernatural powers stemming from "Ki" energy. Students of HWD are conditioned and indoctrinated to see themselves as part of the "family" which is another hallmark of a cult. (See Charles Manson) This is then used to control students via guilt and shame. I'm surprised this cult hasn't received much media attention...yet. Furthermore, aspiring students are not allowed to sit in on a class and observe or even to take a class or two to see if they like it....because supposedly the techniques are so deadly that only those with "high ethical and moral standards" may be taught it. At least not until the aspiring student signs and hands over a big fat check. Again, no BJJ school does this. I've been to many martial arts schools and I was always allowed to sit in on a class so that I could determine if it was for me. And in almost every case, I found the head instructor to be quite personable and friendly. Joo Bang Lee on the other hand really does believe himself to be above everybody else. He literally acts like a feudal lord in the 21st century. He may very well be a great martial artist, but that doesn't make him any less of a cult leader anymore than Charles Manson being a good musician made him less of a cult leader. I'd stay away from this crazy, cultish school and if anybody wants to learn Hwa Rang Do, there are schools that were founded by students who left, and these do not appear to engage in cult-like behavior. 


Steve said:


> How is it more of a cult than budo taijutsu or BJJ?


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## Buka

Welcome to MartialTalk, BillE. 

Interesting choice of threads to debut on.


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## BillE

Thank you. I read a few of the other threads but I couldn't resist commenting on this one. 



Buka said:


> Welcome to MartialTalk, BillE.
> 
> Interesting choice of threads to debut on.[/QUOTE


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## Tez3

BillE said:


> Thank you. I read a few of the other threads but I couldn't resist commenting on this one.



Despite it being 15 years old.


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## BillE

Yes, and people are still talking about it. 



Tez3 said:


> Despite it being 15 years old.


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## thanson02

Man, I take a break from being online for the last year because of family stuff and ALL the drama pops up. 



Gweilo said:


> Ha Rang Do was created by Joe Bang Lee, whose family fled modern day north Korea, trained under  Yong sul Choi's early form of modern Hapkido, to cut a long story short was a deeply spiritual man, in 1955 attained a master level under Choi, bur continued his spiritual studies under Suahan Dosa, after failing to unite Korean arts at his own expense created his own style Ha Rang Do, in 1972 emigrated to the USA,
> In the US, his students found the concept of spiritual training very difficult, and had much less training time due to work and family life back then to comprehend, so he simplified the art to suit his new students.
> After a time he decided to take students that wanted to learn the art in its entirety, into a situation where they could embrace the arts four fundemental principles of training, implementing over 4000 techniques,  combining internal power, external power, mental power, and weapon power, and in order to achieve this, students needed to be away from modern life and it's pressures.
> I do not know if the arts you speak of are actual cults, or if they are under the principles of master Joo Bang Lee, but I thought it necessary to inform you of the man's teaching philosophies,  of being completely immersed in the art, and away from modern distractions in order to master it. By the way never trained in the art, but did learn about it of my own free will, as it shares it's history with Hapkido and it's documented founder.



Well as someone who has been training in the art for almost 20 years, this is for the most part correct.  There are certain rules that they are strict on and certain things they are not.  Dedication to the art is a BIG thing for the organization.  Their attitude is " If you are going to be here and master what we do, be here and master it." Not everyone in the US, especially those who are big into MMA style training appreciate that, but the argument between "traditional vs MMA" has been done to death and frankly is a preference of style more then anything.

As for the comments of Hwa Rang Do being "cultish", I have avoided those discussions because for the most part, I do not know the people making the clams.  I do not know their disposition, preferences, or history, and I have no context on what their experiences have been.  All I can speak to is my experiences.  Being someone who has been involved in Korean martial arts since I was 10-12 years old, all I can say is that the idea of "loyalty to your teacher and master" is something that I have seen in both Tae Kwon Do and Hwa Rang Do.  My TKD instructor was really bad in this and his behavior would defiantly falls under the "cultish" label.  He was the reason I left martial arts completely for 5 years, which were some of the hardest years in my life.  My experiences with HRD has certainly been better then my TKD experience in regards to the instructors and most of the problems I have had has been from students who have come up through the ranks and felt that if they focus on their achievements, then the instructors should grant them "special privileges".  I have trained with Dojoonim and his son, Grandmaster Taejoon Lee.  They are intense and not everyone can appreciate that.  To be honest, there have been times where I have not either.  But their job is not to make me feel better about myself.  They tell me how they see things and they tell me where I need to do better.  I don't always like hearing it, but I have found (and sometimes it took a while) that their comments helped me move forward.  I have never felt like I was not allowed to leave or that I was worthless or deficient if I do, nor have I ever felt like myself or my family was in danger if I do. (which is a classic cult practice in order to maintain the cult structure).  On the other hand, I do not train under them all the time and last time I had any interaction with Grandmaster Lee was 4 years ago when he moved to Europe.

There has been a lot of drama around the Hwa Rang Do leadership, that much is obvious.  But frankly, (and this is my opinion) if the art is not a good fit, move on to something else that is.  There are more then enough martial art systems out there to train under.  I don't think it is really that complicated.


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## thanson02

Side note: If folks are just interested in talking crap about HRD and it is somthing that is a gulty pleasure for them, don't let my comments stop you.  It is not a practice I particually get into nor do I find enjoyment in it.  That was one of the few things that I did learn from my old TKD instructor that had any value (although I don't think he ment it to be a lesson).  Tearing others down to show how good you are elevates no one to a better place.

But like I said, we all our pleasures..............


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## Gweilo

I think the biggest problem is everyone is an expert,  even if they have no training in a perticular art, we can all understand art loyalty,  and we can all find a video that portraits an art in a non impressive way, the thing is, if we don't ask questions people don't understand,  can you imagine, if the masses had followed the  opinions of thoso in the know, when JKD was first exposed to the MA world, I can remember people laughing about new arts being shown at MA festivals in the late 80's early 90's, that are main stream training nowdays, I am all for keeping traditions,  and keeping arts intact, as they were meant to be, but I have recently come to understand,  we do need to evolve, as do our arts.


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## thanson02

Gweilo said:


> I think the biggest problem is everyone is an expert,  even if they have no training in a perticular art, we can all understand art loyalty,  and we can all find a video that portraits an art in a non impressive way, the thing is, if we don't ask questions people don't understand,  can you imagine, if the masses had followed the  opinions of thoso in the know, when JKD was first exposed to the MA world, I can remember people laughing about new arts being shown at MA festivals in the late 80's early 90's, that are main stream training nowdays, I am all for keeping traditions,  and keeping arts intact, as they were meant to be, but I have recently come to understand,  we do need to evolve, as do our arts.



Completely agree.  All martial arts must grow and evolve, or they will become stagnant and wither away.  And you have to ask questions.  HRD is no different in this.  For our community, the key is to grow without sacrificing the core of what you do and why you train.  If for you that is pure competitive competition and the glory of the ring and excel in competitive fighting, great.  Have fun.  If it is to express a tradition and use competition to pressure test what you do to help deepen your understanding of what you do as you strive towards excellence in that art, awesome.  Go do it.

Of course, it doesn’t help that different people have different relationships with the concept of loyalty.  Some people see it a "blind faith", which is unhealthy at best and strait up damaging at worse.  Others (like me) see it as dedication to a martial community and what that community stand for.  There are TONS of people who are dedicated to excellence in their training in their martial art, whether it is Judo, BJJ, Tae Kwon Do, Karate, ect.  There are also people who are dedicated to their instructors or their schools for various reasons and you don't hear people bash the dedication, especially if people are getting results in what they do.  But when relationships go south for whatever reason, there are hurt feelings and people get upset.


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