# air vs contact training



## digitalronin (May 10, 2005)

What are the advantages and disadvantages of using pads or partners vs.  the noncontact method of training?


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## Andrew Green (May 10, 2005)

One teaches you to hit people and get hit, the other teaches you to pretend to hit people and pretend to get hit.


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## digitalronin (May 10, 2005)

Basically trying to determine why certain schools teach pure forms forms (tai chi), some teach a mixture  (tkd, kenpo) while others are pure contact (boxing, muy thai).  Logically there must be some reason why each preference and used or not used.   Is for example body mechanics absorbed by the student faster in a noncontact aproach?


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## Andrew Green (May 10, 2005)

Ok, well Tai Chi is not usually practiced for its "how to fight" aspects.

 Instead it is a really great way to stay healthy and improve balance, circulation, reduce stress, etc. 

 It is hard to box into your 70's, but doing Tai Chi is possible, and rather beneficial.

 Martial arts has many faces, and not all of them have to do with learning to fight, and this is a good thing, because everyone needs to stay healthy, but not everyone needs to fight, or even spar.


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## MJS (May 10, 2005)

Anytime one is training with a live partner or training pads, there will be a different feel to whatever it is that you're doing.  We can run through many things in the air and think that we're doing them correctly, but once we put that body or focus mit in front of us, things certainly will change.

Mike


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## c2kenpo (May 10, 2005)

Both are accecptable. Boxers use mirrors to focus on target placement for punches. I use mirrrors for the same traiinin purpose ie hitting the right target even tho my opponent may be a different height that always helps.

training with partner allows you to learn the dynamics of the martial art you are studying. Working with partners or bags makes things more difficult but that is what we should be doing in our art is contantly improving.

David Gunzburg


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## Ceicei (May 10, 2005)

Practicing in the air does allow one to work alone without a partner and remembering sequences of motion. This also helps in learning how to visualize action/attacker and working on different segments (such as stances, punches, kicks, etc.) 

 Contact practice allows one to feel how it is done on a partner (especially when partners come in different sizes), how to adjust whenever needed, and timing with "give & take". 

 Doing either way consistently does allow "muscle memory" to develop. It all depends on what your purpose is for doing contact & non-contact practice.

   - Ceicei


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## aikido2249 (May 20, 2005)

I think its good to practice both ways...especially on your forms. forms are a very important part of martial arts...but to get the technique right it needs to be done with a partner so you can know whether how effective you can be also. if it goes to that level.


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## rutherford (May 20, 2005)

I practice striking, falling, rolling, and fundamental movements both unarmed and with weapons in the air.  I do this every day, throughout the day when I have spare time.  I do this for muscle memory and to train my body to move in certain ways.  I consider this a foundation upon which training builds.

I'm currently carrying a Kusari Fundo (training version) to familiarize myself with the weapon.  I try to take it with me everywhere, because flexible weapons are something I've got an interest in and I'm working on them heavily in my personal development.

Our training is 100% partner based, and in my training group we switch partners between every excercise.  I find this to be the only way I enjoy martial arts.  I've never been able to stick with an art for more than a month that isn't heavily partner based.


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## pete (May 20, 2005)

digitalronin said:
			
		

> Basically trying to determine why certain schools teach pure forms forms (tai chi), some teach a mixture (tkd, kenpo) while others are pure contact (boxing, muy thai).





			
				Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Ok, well Tai Chi is not usually practiced for its "how to fight" aspects.


you guys should try and get out a little more before making such assumptions... there is mediocrity in ALL arts, its up to the student to search out a level that he is willing to accept.

 btw, i do not see tai chi listed on either of your profiles... on what basis are you making these sweeping generalizations?  

pete


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## Andrew Green (May 20, 2005)

pete said:
			
		

> btw, i do not see tai chi listed on either of your profiles... on what basis are you making these sweeping generalizations?
> 
> pete


 Keyword in there "USUALLY" Some might do Tai chi as a fighting art, but the vast majority of people that choose Tai Chi are doing it for the health benefits.


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## Eldritch Knight (May 20, 2005)

I agree with you, Pete. Tai chi is a very valid combative art, just like many others. As Andrew Green mentioned, it is _usually_ not practiced that way. However, this does not inherently diminish tai chi in and of itself. There is "sparring" in tai chi (we call it push hands) and it can get pretty rough in tournaments, from what I've heard.

Getting back on topic, I much rather prefer contact training to non-contact. My first few years with MA were in a TKD school where I practiced nothing but shadow-techniques. Our sparring was tournament-style, so we tapped all of our attacks. I was under the impression that I could very easily make it a real technique if necessary, but shadow-kicking was so ingrained into me that when I practiced it on B.O.B., I would always tap it with my kicks instead of hitting through. That came as a huge surprise to me, and now I'm a huge advocate of training with contact.


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## pete (May 20, 2005)

Eldritch Knight said:
			
		

> There is "sparring" in tai chi (we call it push hands)


since this is the "beginner's corner", i am taking a little extra care to put things into perspective. beginners may be coming here to get ideas on where they may want to go and invest their hard earned money and even more valuable time. broad generalizations and *USUALLY's* based on someone's rather limited view of an art in which they do not train should be clarified by one or more that have a different perspective, perhaps based on actual experience.

Eldritch Knight, support coming from you carries merit since you list in your profile tai chi training. one small point is not to confuse pushing hands (tui shou) with sparring (san shou). pushing hands is more of a exercise to develop skills introduced in solo practice. 

and yes, back to topic... non-contact, pads or other devices, and partner work with contact are all used in the arts that i train. solo you learn to develop your motion and your root. pads, etc allow you to develop a sense of targeting and to release the power. partner work makes things come ALIVE, learn control over power, and apply distancing and timing. partner work with contact will put your solo practice to the test.

pete


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## Bigshadow (May 20, 2005)

digitalronin said:
			
		

> What are the advantages and disadvantages of using pads or partners vs. the noncontact method of training?


  IMHO, it goes something like this...

 Training with Pads or better yet Partners (making contact, not the "feel the wind" stuff) = Proper timing, proper distancing, and proper body dynamics (kamae and footwork).

 Training with air (including training with partners in "feel the wind" mode) = basic form and simple kamae, no timing, no distance.


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## Shizen Shigoku (May 20, 2005)

I have a "feel the wind" technique that can knock most people out :fart:



*1) No contact*

pros: very safe most of the time (practicing a back-flip-kick with no partner around might not be very safe, e.g.); allows for lots of repetitions to improve accuracy of form and muscle memory; easier for the less-athletic to practice; no other people or equipment necessary - can be practiced any time; good warm-up for or review of contact exercises.

cons: lack of "feel" and feedback; hard to perfect priciples of distancing and timing; if used too much, can instill bad habits (repetition of error with no feedback to correct); can instill false sense of prowess - as in E.K.'s shadow kicking example. For all those reasons, non-contact training should be suplemented depending on practicioners' goals.

*2) pad/bag/makiwara/etc. contact*

pros: good feedback on accuracy (aim), and power; reasonably good for learning proper distancing; good exercise - for warm-up/cool-down/strength/stamina; pretty safe depending on method; many types of targets are free-standing/hanging and don't require a partner's assistance; fun and stress-relieving to hit stuff.

cons: "board no hit back" - hard to develop timing, and how to hit a moving target; over-use without coaching and supplementation with other methods can lead to lack of defensive practice (no need to keep your guard up***); can only practice certain techniques depending on shape of target (can't arm-lock a punching bag - can't put a focus mit in a head lock - can't kick out the knee of a speed bag hanging head-high - can't throw a makiwara . . . not without considerable effort anyway. 

*3) partner contact*

pros: most closely resembles what one is training to do; allows multiple forms of feedback; allows practice of distancing, timing, balance-breaking, follow-through, defensive movements, feinting - pretty much every MA principle as human-to-human contact is what MAs are based on; get to feel both sides of an application (_toru_ and _ukeru_).

cons: can be dangerous to both parties; safety precautions limit techniques; requires supervision; without proper coaching, can instill feeling of having to 'beat' the other person****


Just a few off the top of my head.


* When I used to use a hanging heavy bag, I would strap sticks of various lengths to it that would 'counter-attack' me as the bag rebounded, so I could practice blocks and evasions too.

** This is why when I do partner practice, I always include the technique 'run away' in my arsenal.


Considering all of the above, I think the best thing to do is incorporate all three methodologies, but what would be the optimum proportion of each?

Of course it depends on the MA style and personal goals, and the current level of training one is at, but I think looking at the pros and cons of each, we can come up with a good objective average range for those proportions.

Personally, my mix is 60-70% partner-based, 20-30% solo forms, and a minimal - but non-zero - amount of target hitting (I currently use palm trees).


For my BBT brethren and sistern, I call the above "_ten-chi-jin_ of striking" - hit the sky; hit the earth; hit the man.


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## shinbushi (May 20, 2005)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> *2) pad/bag/makiwara/etc. contact*
> 
> cons: "board no hit back" - hard to develop timing, and how to hit a moving target; over-use without coaching and supplementation with other methods can lead to lack of defensive practice (no need to keep your guard up***); can only practice certain techniques depending on shape of target (can't arm-lock a punching bag - can't put a focus mit in a head lock - can't kick out the knee of a speed bag hanging head-high - can't throw a makiwara . . . not without considerable effort anyway.


 I agree with the rest of the post but if you see how boxers and Muay Thai people do pad work you move around like you are sparring and the pad holder does hit back.


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## Bigshadow (May 20, 2005)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> I have a "feel the wind" technique that can knock most people out :fart:


  Somehow, I scents(ed) that was coming! :jedi1:

  BTW, that was a good description of the pros and cons.  I certainly agree.


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## chris... (May 20, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> One teaches you to hit people and get hit, the other teaches you to pretend to hit people and pretend to get hit.


 the other also teaches you what to do when you miss, e.g. not overstiking or losing balance, rather then always landing the strike on a pad or partner


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## Shizen Shigoku (May 20, 2005)

*shinbushi: "I agree with the rest of the post but if you see how boxers and Muay Thai people do pad work you move around like you are sparring and the pad holder does hit back."*

You're right, I did fail to consider that type of training, but I think that would be more of a combination pad&partner training method. I was trying to limit my descriptions to the individual methods taken by themselves.

I suppose another combination would be air&partner training - like in some styles of karate where they do 1- or 2-step sparring at high speed but pull strikes before they make contact.

Mixing the methods mixes the pros and cons too. 


*Bigshadow: "Somehow, I scents(ed) that was coming!"*

I'm sure you did. I'm glad I was the first one to get that joke in, as I'm sure others thought of something similar. :lol:


*chris...: "the other also teaches you what to do when you miss, e.g. not overstiking or losing balance, rather then always landing the strike on a pad or partner"*

Good point, but depending on who you train with, if you miss while training with a partner, you'll learn some very valuable lessons.

And it is possible to miss, overstrike, or lose balance when striking inanimate targets.

I know what you mean though. Training with solo forms, one has to remain balanced at all times. This is exacerbated when practicing with large heavy weapons (think unloaded barbell for _bo_ training).


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## rutherford (May 20, 2005)

shinbushi said:
			
		

> I agree with the rest of the post but if you see how boxers and Muay Thai people do pad work you move around like you are sparring and the pad holder does hit back.



I did a lot of this kind of training in JKD as well.


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## chris... (May 21, 2005)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> I know what you mean though. Training with solo forms, one has to remain balanced at all times. This is exacerbated when practicing with large heavy weapons (think unloaded barbell for _bo_ training).


 Yeah, I use a brass rod sometimes


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## still learning (May 23, 2005)

Hello, Just another thought, air vs contact training. Air for practicing forms, something that was taught to all past instructors and past on to us. Contact builds more muscle and teaches distance of your reach and you learn what impact is and can do.

 To learn to fight like real is to train like real. How many of us can do this for hours and everyday. Our bodies are not design to take punishment like this.

 The hardcore guys train as real as they can. Grapplers, Judo and those type of arts actully do the real thing to each other. Vs Karate styles, which punches in the air alot and do forms. 2-3 times a week and light contact sparring.

 This past two years, I watch my son do High School wrestling and Judo. You are able to see the difference in the training and the results. My son has been training in Universal Kempo-Karate for eight years. In school the short training (hands on hands-actual grabing and throwing) he has learn taught him more than all those years punching air and bags. In High School they train 5 days a week for two or more hours and on the weekends are school tourments.

 Try for yourself? contact fighting(put on gloves and head gear and go at it vs punching in the air.....You will know the difference........Aloha

    When you get tired faster from contact than air...then you know why?  We need to train as real as we can.

  Air for breathing,  Hit the bag! .....Aloha


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## 47MartialMan (May 24, 2005)

Well, the pros and cons of each can vary. However, given any training routine, perhaps one should not be without the other.


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## eyebeams (May 24, 2005)

Each element trains a different skill. 

 Shadowboxing is great to develop your posture, structure and accuracy, but you will never develop significant power using this method alone. In fact, full power air striking is bad for your joints, so don't do it. Use shadowboxing to develop proper form and above all, visualize the opponent.

 Partner work is so diverse that very few generalizations can be made. You want to escalate from static movements to improvised, hard contact training if possible. You also want a diverse range of body types and skills. What you learn will depend on what the other person brings. You might be partnered with a smaller, more timid person; that's the time to concentrate on form and sensitivity. With a bigger, more athletic guy, you want to work on timing, endurance, speed and the "hard" elements of training. You shouldn't neglect anything else, but you should rise to the challenge. One of the worst things you can do is blame the other person for using "too much strength" or similar garbage. Let them work on their end and you work on yours. You meet in the middle with technique, not words.

 Oh, and make sure you have at least a mouth guard for any heavy contact training.

 Work against targets for striking power, naturally, starting with static exercises (working a punch over and over again), and then up to what is really partner work with pads instead of a warm body to work with.

 Contrary to what folks are often told, you should *always* rise to accept things that come up out of the normal order of training, such as sparring without "working up" into it with intermediary exercises. You should put yourself in situations where you don't feel prepared and which break your normal routine. The only situations that are exceptions is where you are worried a known physical limitation will create a problem. Don't try something where you'd probably hurt yourself, but do try something where the risk of injury is slight, but your level of mental preparedness is low.

 For the last, I'll give you examples of a good challenge and a bad challenge:

 Good: At an aikijujutsu class, a BB asked if I wanted to work striking combinations with him. I said yes and was nicely schooled by him, but tward the end I rose to the occasion. I trusted him not to seriously injure me (and if you don't have that level of trust in a club, leave!).

 Bad: At a karate school, I was asked to squat under kicks thrown by my partner. My partner was 8" shorter than me and could only kick to waist height. I asked to modify the exercise, s it was obviously impossible for me to do this with proper form. The brown running training shouted at me. I did it anyway. I missed 2 days of work because having to squat and then bend my back since squatting below 90 degrees wasn't good enough.


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## 47MartialMan (May 24, 2005)

Well, I dont know about the good or bad challenge. It is either partner or non-partner workouts. It is ideally to train in both


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## eyebeams (May 24, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Well, I dont know about the good or bad challenge. It is either partner or non-partner workouts. It is ideally to train in both


 Sure. I was talking about a subset of that. Some partner work is unnecessarily intimidating for people, and folks shoild rise up to it and consider their fear a part of training. Others are just bad for your body (what I mentioned) or involve prerequisite skills you don't have (taking very hard falls without significant breakfall training).


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## 47MartialMan (May 24, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> Sure. I was talking about a subset of that. Some partner work is unnecessarily intimidating for people, and folks shoild rise up to it and consider their fear a part of training. Others are just bad for your body (what I mentioned) or involve prerequisite skills you don't have (taking very hard falls without significant breakfall training).


Hmmmn, I had nevered considered a fear of training. At least not in class. Although we had for decades, used "field" reality drills. You can observe the "anxiety" of the non-suspecting participants.


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## Bigshadow (May 24, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> Contrary to what folks are often told, you should *always* rise to accept things that come up out of the normal order of training, such as sparring without "working up" into it with intermediary exercises. You should put yourself in situations where you don't feel prepared and which break your normal routine. The only situations that are exceptions is where you are worried a known physical limitation will create a problem. Don't try something where you'd probably hurt yourself, but do try something where the risk of injury is slight, but your level of mental preparedness is low.


 That is precisely why I never stretch and "warm up" before I train. I change from my street clothes and get on the mat and I am ready to train. Warming up (stretching and stuff) should be a part of your normal day to day routines just as taking a shower or brushing your teeth, that way you are "always ready".


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## 47MartialMan (May 24, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> That is precisely why I never stretch and "warm up" before I train. I change from my street clothes and get on the mat and I am ready to train. Warming up (stretching and stuff) should be a part of your normal day to day routines just as taking a shower or brushing your teeth, that way you are "always ready".


Speaking f street clothes, we train in those on ocassion,.


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## silatman (Jun 6, 2005)

digitalronin said:
			
		

> What are the advantages and disadvantages of using pads or partners vs.  the noncontact method of training?


I've always thought that non contact anything isn't much good for much at all. You cant generate any speed or power without the risk of hyper-extention to the joint. With the pad or partner method your getting resistance to the strike and feedback to know that you can generate power. In my experience air doesnt hit back. Pads will also toughen up hands, shins, feet, head whatever, conditioning is something that will never happen without feedback training. :whip:


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## Jonathan Randall (Jun 8, 2005)

digitalronin said:
			
		

> What are the advantages and disadvantages of using pads or partners vs. the noncontact method of training?


The two are not mutually exclusive. Pads can be bought or made. Partners can be found, or bribed. LOL. I think you need both. Non-contact training allows you to concentrate on form, contact on application.


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