# Begging Hands



## Hrrikane (Sep 16, 2003)

Last night at one of our group classes we got into a discussion on when one should clear the hands while performing Begging Hands.  When do you clear the hands after the first kick to the groin or do you clear them at the same time you strike with the second kick to the solo plexus?  Also, what are your reasons for clearing the hands at that particular time in the technique?


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 16, 2003)

As you step back with the "first," move, which gives the technique its name.

Don't clear them too far...but one reason to whip your hands over and (diagonally, to be sure) down is to check the attacker's height...


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## dcence (Sep 16, 2003)

For once I kind of agree with Robert. LOL

But for me, the timing  might be a little different.  First move is to step back and roll the hands over, but don't jerk yet. This checks and cancels momentarily.  Second move is to kick and jerk the  hand with opposing forces. That is where I count on clearing the hands.  The idea is to do all of this seamlessly stepping back, moving through a transitional cat stance into the kick.  So to me it is one move, but when you learn it, it is multiple steps.


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## Michael Billings (Sep 16, 2003)

That is how I do it also.  I have to teach it sequentially, but in execution it flows together.

I saw Howard Silva do it once without the release at all, just the downward sort of pull, then the release came with the two upward heel palms.  The kicks were awefully quick, low then to face and the thrusting heel palms worked against the weak part of the grip.

I prefer the way you and Robert are doing it personally and that is what I teach generally.

-MB


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## MisterMike (Sep 16, 2003)

> When do you clear the hands after the first kick to the groin or do you clear them at the same time you strike with the second kick to the solo plexus?



What do you mean by clearing the hands? If you kick the opponent in the groin, they 'should' let go (and hold something else). Then when you kick to the face, their hands are presumably going there next. At this point when I run it, my hands are still chambered to go right into the 2 torquing heel-palm strikes.

I may have mis-interpreted 'clear' in your post. I was thinking you were doing some clearing motion with your hands(rather than using the kick). Did you mean to 'clear(release) the grip' or clear their hands out of the way for the heal-palms?

When I break the grip, I pull my hands back (but not diag. downward) so that they are in position to deliver 2 torquing heel-palm strikes downward onto the opponent's upper body.

Regards,


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 16, 2003)

Um...look for the figure-eights as the hands come back...round off the corners, rather than yanking in and thrusting back...


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## MisterMike (Sep 16, 2003)

Ah, yes, Ive found those. But they are in Circling Fans et. al.

The reason they are not in Begging Hands is to show Torquing Heel Palms, which are linear.

But I'll certainly explore your technique as well, thank you!


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 17, 2003)

Uh...I don't think so. If you look at Begging Hands, the hands indeed do follow figure-eight patterns...in keeping with the general kenpo "rounding off corners," principle. In a way, there are no straight lines in kenpo...any more than there are circles that aren't flattened, ellipses...

And those strikes to the torso don't exactly take a straight line to the body, either...one possibility is that they are lifting heel-palms striking up under the diaphragms...

Thanks.


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## MisterMike (Sep 17, 2003)

The two torquing heel-palms are to drive the opponent down onto his back. To do this, they would have to strike diagonally down, and therefor must be chambered higher than the targets.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it


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## Hrrikane (Sep 17, 2003)

Let me clarify what I mean by clearing.  The clearing motion is when one chambers both of their hands after the grip is broken. This is to setup the double palm heel strike to the solar plexus.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *The two torquing heel-palms are to drive the opponent down onto his back. To do this, they would have to strike diagonally down, and therefor must be chambered higher than the targets.
> 
> That's my story, and I'm sticking to it  *




Have you done the extension to this technique?   It would be pretty difficult to pull off if your attacker went to the ground.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Hrrikane (Sep 17, 2003)

From what I have seen of the extension your opponent doesn't have much time to fall to the ground.


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 17, 2003)

The strikes, "don," with the heel palms don't go to the solar plexus. They go beneath the ribs...and as for needing to chamber and strike down, you may be overlooking the way that the second kick snaps the head back (well, if everything's perfect, which it won't be) to "present," their lower rib-cage...you strike "down," on it only because the angle of the body's been changed.

Then there's the issue of where their legs go while you're pushing down on their torso...


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## MisterMike (Sep 17, 2003)

I don't think you'll be able to fit double hell-palm strike to the solar plexus, unless you're fighting Goliath.

As for an extension, it wouldn't be one of the original 32, so it wouldn't have come from Mr. Parker in my book. You can add all the what-if's you want though.


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## FiveSwords (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *Have you done the extension to this technique?   It would be pretty difficult to pull off if your attacker went to the ground. *



Not saying that is the correct way to do the technique, but it seems that most of the extensions would be hard to do if the colored-belt part was done correctly.
I believe extensions are only really necessary if you don't hit him with everything you've got or the attacker is one tough mofo.

As far as Begging Hands, we do thrusting heel-palms/claws that grab the pec muscle, rotate and tear outwards.

What are your thoughts?

:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Sep 17, 2003)

What "tearing outwards?"  The movement is inward with a heel palm while having Contact Maintainance with the other.

Here is what I have for the Extension in it's latest version circa 1990.

1. Begging Hands (Front- Two-Hand Grab to Wrists)
1. An opponent at 12:00 directly grabs your wrists with both hands; their left hand to your right wrist, right hand to your left wrist.
2. Step back with your left foot to 6:00 into a right neutral bow facing 12:00 as you circle your hands from the inside out (up, over, and on top) of your opponent's wrists, simulating the begging hands.
3. Immediately slide your right foot back into a transitional right cat stance. Execute a right front kick to your opponent's groin.
4. Land in a right neutral bow facing 12:00. Execute a left front kick to your opponent's chin or chest. Note: This should bring your opponent's body up.
5. Land in a left neutral bow facing 12:00 as you utilize back-up mass and execute twin torquing heel palm strikes under your opponent's ribcage.
6. Step your right foot to 10:30 into a right neutral bow; your right knee steps through your opponent's right knee as you simultaneously have both of your hands grab your opponent's flesh (on the chest) and squeeze.
7. Step your left foot to 1:30 into a left rear crossover while *maintaining the grab. Step your right foot out to 1:30 to buckle out your opponent's left leg. Simultaneous with the buckle, execute a right inward heel palm strike to your opponent's face. (Your left is maintaining the grab.)*
8. Step with your right foot to 7:30 into a right front crossover sweep to your opponent's right foot. Simultaneous with the sweep, execute a left inward heel palm strike to your opponent's face while your right hand checks your opponent's right shoulder.
9. Pivot counterclockwise and execute a left rear kick to any opening.
10. Land in a left front crossover and cross out to 4:30. 

If you have another version, you might want to share, so we are all on the same page.

Thanks,
-Michael


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## FiveSwords (Sep 17, 2003)

> 5. Land in a left neutral bow facing 12:00 as you utilize back-up mass and execute twin torquing heel palm strikes under your opponent's ribcage.



Right.  This is how we do it, but after the strikes land, we grab the pec, rotate inward and tear outward, then come back in more underneath the armpit for the extension.

I don't know where this came from, but this is what my instructor taught me and he trained with Mr. Planas for several years, so I would have figured Huk would have scolded him if it was too far off.


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## Michael Billings (Sep 17, 2003)

This material came in the very late 80's.  Huk was already doing his own thing and living in New Orleons at the time.  No big thing, I am sure it is a variation that works, whether yours or mine.  Once I make contact, I "stick" and usually do not let go until disengaging.

-MB

<<Edited 5:12>>  Changed '90's to '80's.  Whoops, -MB


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## ProfessorKenpo (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *I don't think you'll be able to fit double hell-palm strike to the solar plexus, unless you're fighting Goliath.
> 
> As for an extension, it wouldn't be one of the original 32, so it wouldn't have come from Mr. Parker in my book. You can add all the what-if's you want though. *



Exactly how long have you been doing Kenpo and who is your instructor, and how did you could you come to the conclusion that the extension is not what Mr. Parker did or didn't do?     I've heard some pretty crazy things in my time but that's certainly a first.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 18, 2003)

Uh...first off, I wrote--twice--that the "double torquing heel-palms," do NOT, repeat NOT repeat NOT go to the solar plexus, but to--precisely as Mr. Billings wrote--to beneath the ribcage, both sides.

Second, the extensions are real, and again my understanding--and my school's manual--gives Mr. Billings' version. 

Third--"what if's?" Well sure. If everything goes right, I avoid the fight in the first place and no formal tech is necessary at all. If everything goes right, you step back and no block is necessary...etc. etc...but if everything doesn't go right, ya needs some place to go. 

As for the assertion that Mr. Parker didn't approve the endings--if memory serves, they're in his original manuals. And if that don't float your boat...well, I've mostly got them from Larry Tatum, so I don't know what to tell you...


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## MisterMike (Sep 18, 2003)

Mr. Robertson/Clyde,

I beleive I was quoting Hrrikane on the solar plexus targets. Please read the entire thread. I'll try to make my references more pointed next time.

My Kenpo lineage goes back to Mr. Planas, and we were taught the 32 system. 32 techniques each for Orange, Purple, Blue and Green. Then the Orange 32 was taught again with the Original extensions. Again, there were 32. This, along with the Forms 1-6 (7 and 8 were not part of the original system) completes the system as I learned it.

I've trained for 10 years. Still a Sping chicken I hope, and still learning.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *My Kenpo lineage goes back to Mr. Planas, and we were taught the 32 system. 32 techniques each for Orange, Purple, Blue and Green. Then the Orange 32 was taught again with the Original extensions. Again, there were 32. This, along with the Forms 1-6 (7 and 8 were not part of the original system) completes the system as I learned it.
> 
> I've trained for 10 years. Still a Sping chicken I hope, and still learning. *



Well, you really didn't answer the questions so I'll pose them again.    Who is your instructor?     In addition, how far removed from Mr. Planas are you in your lineage?     What makes  you think the extensions are not something Mr. Parker didn't put in the system?   I also did the 32 version with Larry, and was then taught the extensions of the 24 thru green, and it's emphasized in Book 5 of Infinite Insights as a requirement for those belt levels.    I just kinda figured that was what Mr. Parker approved as the curriculum before his untimely demise, but I could be wrong.     You also have to remember I'm getting the information from someone with almost 25 years of daily contact with Mr. Parker.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 18, 2003)

Mike:

Yep, you're right about the solar plexus. I guess I got confused because of the claim that a) the heel-palms had no figure-eights, and b) they thrust "down," on the opponent.

Thanks.


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## MisterMike (Sep 18, 2003)

> Well, you really didn't answer the questions so I'll pose them again. Who is your instructor? In addition, how far removed from Mr. Planas are you in your lineage? What makes you think the extensions are not something Mr. Parker didn't put in the system? I also did the 32 version with Larry, and was then taught the extensions of the 24 thru green, and it's emphasized in Book 5 of Infinite Insights as a requirement for those belt levels. I just kinda figured that was what Mr. Parker approved as the curriculum before his untimely demise, but I could be wrong. You also have to remember I'm getting the information from someone with almost 25 years of daily contact with Mr. Parker.



It could have been written in book 5 and that's all great, but my last school was very conservative and worked with the system before it had a lot of outside influence (around the time of book 5).

I'd tell you my full lineage but I don't see the need to get into a pissing match over who has the better teacher. Let's just leave it at "we're learning different systems". I've noticed a lot of arrogance on the boards coming from the Tatum students, and it's not what I'm here for. We can still discuss the motion, even if it is different. My comment about double heel-palms not fitting in the solar plexus was accurate, doesn't matter if the move was in your system or mine.

You may do Delayed Sword for a Left hair grab for all I know, but if we're going to have a technical discussion on Kenpo motion, then we have to leave out the Politics.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *It could have been written in book 5 and that's all great, but my last school was very conservative and worked with the system before it had a lot of outside influence (around the time of book 5).
> 
> I'd tell you my full lineage but I don't see the need to get into a pissing match over who has the better teacher. Let's just leave it at "we're learning different systems". I've noticed a lot of arrogance on the boards coming from the Tatum students, and it's not what I'm here for. We can still discuss the motion, even if it is different. My comment about double heel-palms not fitting in the solar plexus was accurate, doesn't matter if the move was in your system or mine.
> ...




You have to remember that I'm in the heart of Kenpoland, with access to alot of the Senior BB's around at that time, and was training in the West LA studio with Mr. Parker when you were merely thinking of doing Kenpo in High School, so I'm speaking from a much more informed position.     It may come off as arroagance but it's actually knowledge.     The reason I bring up your lineage and how far removed you are is usally indicative of the cloning effect.   The more you copy the copy, the more degenerative it becomes, so in effect, we may very well be doing different systems.     If you choose not to listen to what we have to say, there is an ignore function to blot us out, that's always an option.       I never brought Kenpolitics into the conversation BTW, I thought we were discussing   Begging Hands, and I think the topic is worthwhile discussing.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## MisterMike (Sep 18, 2003)

OK, enough said. Maybe we'll cross paths sometime. I'm a fairly nice guy to talk to and work out with. In fact, the thing that I like best about myself is my modesty. :lol:


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 18, 2003)

Welllp, thank goodness you're above the politics, Mike.

I'm sorry if I offended. But I was simply trying to tell you, politiely, that I got the material from someone who probably had about as good a pipeline as there is. I probably should've figured out something better.

While I agree that there are several ways to see questions and issues, well, at some point the debate does have to stop. Everything ain't equally good--the very claim that kenpo makes to being a science (now there's an arguable one) relies on the idea that, in the end, there is such a thing as the right way and the wrong way, the good concept and the poor one.

I don't want by any means to get into the fantasy that I'm perfect. But I will note that there's an interesting point the critic Stanley Fish makes on the "Chronicle of Higher Education," website--college students should be told to leave their opinions at home.

Do they have the right to an opinion? Absolutely. But it's quite possible to confuse the right to believe, and think, and argue and talk and write and teach in a democratic society, with the notion that all ideas and views are equally good.


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## MisterMike (Sep 18, 2003)

Robert,

I agree. We can't have it ALL ways, just to make people feel good. So long as we still realize that there will always be different ways. I think your posts are done respectfully, as well as others I've corresponded with on here. Arrogant was probably not the best choice of terms, so as for you and Clyde, I hope no offense was taken.

Well, since we've strayed far enough from Begging Hands I'll just have to catch you guys on another posting - unless it turns back ;-)


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## Michael Billings (Sep 18, 2003)

... the groin and hits the pubic bone or a leg, forcing the opponent back, do we:

1.  Graft into another technique as indicated.
2.  Run screaming into the night.
3.  Utilize the chicken kick as a gauging kick and cover distance with it instead of an in-place option.
4.  Call someone and complain that "that is not the way Mr. Parker showed me."

(sorry, thoughts of the 100 Kenpo Black Belts changing a light bulb floated in there - one to change the lightbulb, and 99 to say .... (you got it) "THAT'S NOT THE WAY MR. PARKER TAUGHT ME")  TA-DAAA, and now the sound of one hand clapping ....." * "

(See I do have a sense of humor, it is just very bizzare.)
-MB


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 18, 2003)

Personally, I plan to burst into tears. Then, quote Marx.

However, there are rights and wrongs in technique. For example, shoving down on the body with the heel palms is MOST LIKELY wrong because, a) it's awkward, b) you might force them to head-butt you, c) if they did go down ( unlikely) their feet might very well come up, and you be discomfited; d) this wouldn't jibe with the extension at all..


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## FiveSwords (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> (sorry, thoughts of the 100 Kenpo Black Belts changing a light bulb floated in there - one to change the lightbulb, and 99 to say .... (you got it) "THAT'S NOT THE WAY MR. PARKER TAUGHT ME")



:rofl: 

Good stuff.  And so very true.

Anyway, I guess what to do would depend on the situation.  If you felt very threatened by this person grabbing your wrists, I would say keep pounding on him.  Otherwise, I think a kick to the groin would sufficiently deter him from trying to grab your wrists again, so you should exit stage right.


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## dcence (Sep 19, 2003)

> You have to remember that I'm in the heart of Kenpoland, with access to alot of the Senior BB's around at that time, and was training in the West LA studio with Mr. Parker when you were merely thinking of doing Kenpo in High School, so I'm speaking from a much more informed position. It may come off as arroagance but it's actually knowledge. The reason I bring up your lineage and how far removed you are is usally indicative of the cloning effect. The more you copy the copy, the more degenerative it becomes, so in effect, we may very well be doing different systems.



Wow!  Tell me you didn't say that. This reeks of that same old tired arrogance and elitism that Mr. Parker used to complain about when he was alive -- that some of his SoCal people think they know it all when they really didn't have a clue.   Give me (and every other Kenpoist who doesn't live in SoCal) a break.  Since when does your place of residence and pedigree give you a monopoly on the golden truth?  Is a Catholic any better because he and his ancestors are from Rome? Well -- the Pope is from Poland. 



> Everything ain't equally good--the very claim that kenpo makes to being a science (now there's an arguable one) relies on the idea that, in the end, there is such a thing as the right way and the wrong way, the good concept and the poor one.



I agree that many alternatives people come up with violate principles, but you (Robert) and Clyde take it to the other extreme of there is one right way, and that is your way, and as soon as someone puts up another alternative, out comes the broken record of "well my instructor is so-and-so, I live in Kenpoland, etc., so my opinion carries more weight."  (See above.)

If there is a right way or a wrong way, which one is the right way?  The way it was done in the early eighties when your instructor and Mr. Parker split?  Or the version that was around when Mr. Parker died?  They are different, you know.  (See your conversation about Kicking Set).  The extensions changed in that time, too.   How some of the base techniques were executed changed.  So which is the true gospel?  If there is a right and a wrong and there can be only be one -- which is it?  Early eighties or 1990?



> However, there are rights and wrongs in technique. For example, shoving down on the body with the heel palms is MOST LIKELY wrong because, a) it's awkward, b) you might force them to head-butt you, c) if they did go down ( unlikely) their feet might very well come up, and you be discomfited; d) this wouldn't jibe with the extension at all..



Well, since this is the technical forum, lets talk about Begging Hands.  I actually saw Mr. Parker do the  palm heels exactly as you are saying is MOST LIKELY wrong. This was just a couple of years before he passed.  He actually slammed right down on the chest, torquing outward, not up under the ribs like you feel is so important, and how it is written.  He said (paraphrasing), "I like to do it this way to crack the sternum and split the chest in two."   Is this the way it is written? No.  But do this and that precious little extension becomes unnecessary.



> d) this wouldn't jibe with the extension at all.



I can't believe I am actually hearing this.  Are you trying to justify a version of the base technique with the extension?  That cart is way in front of the horse.  Well, guess what --  if you ever even get to an extension there is something seriously wrong with your Kenpo.  

I just have to laugh when people place such importance on the extensions.  And, yes, I learned the 24 technique per belt system and the extensions. Got tested by Mr. Parker himself up through 2nd black, and he never asked once to see an extension.  He wanted us to hit the base and then formulate based on what was there at the time.  It soon became apparent to me that all of this endless memorization of  patterns was for people who couldn't/wouldn't think for themselves, but who wanted to feel like they were learning something new.  Do extensions have good ideas?  Yes.  But by then you should have the master keys and more than anything, they hide, by their sheer volume, what is really important.  

Mr. Parker used to say that if he really didn't want to teach some one, he would dump on them more than they could handle.  It seems to me there is a lot of that going on with the memorization of countless, endless pattern sequences and extensions and never learning what is really important.  Anyone who thinks that Kenpo is about memorizing countless, endless pattern sequences exactly as written completely missed the boat and is sitting on the pier with their bags packed full of extensions.

All I ask is that you ACTUALLY listen and consider someone else's opinion.  Treat others as peers, even if they are a 5th generation white belt living in Timbuktu, not subordinates.  Who knows, you might actually learn something.

Derek


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## ProfessorKenpo (Sep 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dcence _
> *Wow!  Tell me you didn't say that. This reeks of that same old tired arrogance and elitism that Mr. Parker used to complain about when he was alive -- that some of his SoCal people think they know it all when they really didn't have a clue.   Give me (and every other Kenpoist who doesn't live in SoCal) a break.  Since when does your place of residence and pedigree give you a monopoly on the golden truth?  Is a Catholic any better because he and his ancestors are from Rome? Well -- the Pope is from Poland.
> 
> 
> ...



OK

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 19, 2003)

Uh...Derek--that "torquing outward," you mention--it's part of the extension to the technique, perhaps applied to a different target.

I can't answer for Clyde. But my argument is not that there is only one right way, but that there are in point of fact wrong ways. See E.D. Hirsch, and the concept of, "horizons," in meaning.

I'd also note that it's interesting how these accusations about papistry come up every time some of us say...uh...no, I don't think so, and start providing reasons why. In fact--and apologies in advance if this makes things worse--I find it weird that the accusations often seem to replace explanations. Look baack through at the number of times posts remark, "well, that'd take too long to explain," or offer some platitude about "creativity," and "not getting frozen with one thing," or "tailoring," rather than simply explaining why things work.

In fact--and I gotta tell you that I SOMETIMES see this as the real difference--I get the impression that SOMETIMES folks are simply repeating things and cannot for the life of them say why. 

One personal note--does it really make sense to claim that Clyde and I are too slavishly attached to our instructor (Larry Tatum--don't blame him for our horseassery), then insist that, "Got tested by Mr. Parker himself up through 2nd black, and he never asked once to see an extension. He wanted us to hit the base and then formulate based on what was there at the time. It soon became apparent to me that all of this endless memorization of patterns was for people who couldn't/wouldn't think for themselves, but who wanted to feel like they were learning something new. Do extensions have good ideas? Yes. But by then you should have the master keys and more than anything, they hide, by their sheer volume, what is really important. ..Mr. Parker used to say that if he really didn't want to teach some one, he would dump on them more than they could handle?"

I'll agree if sometimes I'm obnoxious, if you'll agree that some folks jump the gun into personal attacks because they can't  answer questions about what they're doing and resent those who can, at least, try.


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## pete (Sep 19, 2003)

Circling Wagons!


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## MisterMike (Sep 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Personally, I plan to burst into tears. Then, quote Marx.
> 
> However, there are rights and wrongs in technique. For example, shoving down on the body with the heel palms is MOST LIKELY wrong because, a) it's awkward, b) you might force them to head-butt you, c) if they did go down ( unlikely) their feet might very well come up, and you be discomfited; d) this wouldn't jibe with the extension at all.. *



"MOST LIKELY wrong" is what I'm finding doesn't "jibe".

a)Heel-palms can work on a downward angle, and are through-out the System (Grip of Death - contains a heel-palm that strikes diagonally down to force them onto their back). 

b)Striking someone with a long-range hand weapon isn't going to bring them in close enough to head butt you.(99% of the time IMHO)

c)Getting kicked by a flailing leg when you are directing your force downward is pretty slim, again IMHO. If I were pushing them back or up, then I'd be concerned.

d)The extension, well I think dcence pretty much cover the cart-and-horse theory.

I suppose I should clarify the ideal situation in Begging Hands after the kick to the face, and that is the person is going to be leaning back a bit, giving you the angle of incidence you need to drive them downward. (Remember Encounter with Danger?)


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## dcence (Sep 19, 2003)

> Uh...Derek--that "torquing outward," you mention--it's part of the extension to the technique, perhaps applied to a different target.



Uh.... well... ummm....Robert, are we still talking about extensions?  Geez.  Parker didn't  even  get to the extension.  Don't say this is the extension to preserve your version of the base.   Just listen to an alternative, and say, 'hmmmm" and think about it for a second before explaining it away.  This is exactly what I  am talking about.



> I can't answer for Clyde. But my argument is not that there is only one right way, but that there are in point of fact wrong ways.



I agree 100%.  There are wrong ways, and so you agree there are multiple right ways.  Great.  You and Clyde came down on MisterMike as though he was wrong.  The problem in this  instance is you were calling MisterMike wrong when I think Mr. Parker could be in his corner as much as yours.   Not that I think Mr.  Parker didn't make mistakes.



> I'd also note that it's interesting how these accusations about papistry come up every time some of us say...uh...no, I don't think so, and start providing reasons why.



The problem here is.... uh..... well.... your 'reasons why" amounted to "it is written that way" and "it won't work for the extension."  Clyde's was "You don't live in Kenpoland."   Neither is much of a reason for anything.



> One personal note--does it really make sense to claim that Clyde and I are too slavishly attached to our instructor (Larry Tatum--don't blame him for our horseassery), then insist that, "Got tested by Mr. Parker himself up through 2nd black, and he never asked once to see an extension.



Don't worry -- I don't associate Tatum's personality with you or Clyde.  He is his own person as we all are.  Tatum is a great martial artist in his own right.  I am not so insecure to not recognize his ability, knowledge and experience.   You are fortunate to have such a good instructor. My comment about the pre-/post-split Kenpo was to make the point that there is no one way.   Not that the early 80's version is inferior at all to the 1990 version.  But anyone who tries to draw the line between right and wrong better be sure on which side of their own line they will end up.

I am not beyond horseassery myself.  I don't really get your point of the rest of your quote.  I wasn't bringing up the tests with Parker to say that my opinion is worth  more than yours (lot's of people tested with Parker) -- just that in my personal experience the extensions never had any real importance placed on them even in those tests.   You know me well enough to know I  certainly have my own difference of opinion with some of Parker's material and approach.  Heck, I don't prefer the way Parker did Begging Hands that one time over the way it is written.  So I am not beholden to either.  Truth be told, I do it different from both.  (If two kicks are done right, the guy isn't  going  to  be anywhere near to do double hand strikes.  If he is, I better work those kicks.  Two hand strikes are okay, but I prefer hitting with one palm heel personally.)



> I'll agree if sometimes I'm obnoxious, if you'll agree that some folks jump the gun into personal attacks because they can't answer questions about what they're doing and resent those who can, at least, try.



ANYTIME there is a personal attack it is jumping the gun.  The only personal attack I saw was when MisterMike was told he didn't know what he was talking about because he wasn't from So. Cal. and his instructor may not be a 1st generation Parker BB.  I agree that people jump into personal attacks, especially about instructor lineage, when they can't explain why they do what they do.  As you know I will give you the reasons I like/dislike or believe/disbelieve something whether you ask or not.

Again, listen sometimes, disagree too, but treat the guy at the other end like his opinion is entitled to as much weight as yours, even if you don't think it  is.   Actually, debate with you and Clyde are enjoyable to me when we are actually talking the why's and wherefore's.  And you demonstrate some good knowledge when it isn't obfuscated with condescension.



> Personally, I plan to burst into tears. Then, quote Marx.



I knew you were a leftist commie.  LOL

Derek


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 19, 2003)

OK, now we're talkin'. But the condescenscion is your--let's just say, "trip," not mine. I understand that others will prob'ly agree with you, projecting their worries onto my screen...all's I can do is tell you, it's not true. And personally, I try to avoid such accusations and just deal with the discussion.

Two other points. The extension matters, precisely because it teaches that "downward" and "outward," heel-palm motion that's being ballyhooed as  creative.

And as for downward heel palms used as long-range weapons, I'm afraid that I'm just not getting it. How well can you possibly push down with your arms extended? And if you do this, what exactly prevents their heels from flying up--not that they must, but that they might? Look at  Crushing Hammer, which mos' def' has got a downward heel-palm as they start to go over--the extension precisely takes advantage of thee way their feet fly up, or the way they attempt to get their feet up...

In the base tech--if we're going to talk about bases--the second kick ideally snaps the head back, "teeing up" the diaphragms and tensioning the lower chest, which is why the heel palms go there. The "ripping and clawing," stuff appears as the hands slide up from these strikes and the extension begins with what looks disturbingly like that gawdawful scene from, "A Man Called Horse..." That's why the distinction in the heel palms is important.

I think this stuff is there precisely to teach distinctions.


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## Michael Billings (Sep 19, 2003)

Your discussion can be of benefit without the attempts to cut the other guy's line short.

The technique can be done effectively either way.  I happen to do it the way Mr. Tatum teaches, as they are always rocked back from the 2nd kick, and I use an upward arcing motion (there, now another method of execution) to heel palm the floating ribs, in the feverant hope I can actually pierce an organ with the strike.  I am shooting for the lower part of the lungs or a major artery near the heart with the rib, it does not even have to break since it is embedded in muscle, but in all liklihood would break.  And that is just for grabbing my wrists and not letting go when I asked politely.

Let's start another thread on Crushing Hammer, as I do it a little different from you Robert.  It is more of the torquing heel palm, but to the left floating rib, since the elbow stretched them back.  Ya wanna start another thread? I love the extension on this, especially the takedown, I have seen a similar one in Silat.

-MB


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 20, 2003)

Sure, Michael, but I see that I didn't explain that heel palm that well--because in your explanation, it looks like exactly the same thing.


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## Michael Billings (Sep 20, 2003)

Thread Split and new thread.  Link below:

*HAMMER""CRUSHING HAMMER THREAD" *

- Michael Billings
*MOD HAT "ON"*


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## dcence (Sep 22, 2003)

> I understand that others will prob'ly agree with you, projecting their worries onto my screen...all's I can do is tell you, it's not true.



You of all people should know that in true communication what you say isn't as important as what your listeners hear.  



> And if you do this, what exactly prevents their heels from flying up--not that they must, but that they might?



The fact they usually end up sitting on their can a few feet away.  I have never once seen their feet come up anywhere near me.  

Consider the following non-exhaustive Begging Hands alternatives (just the base and nothing but the base):

1)  Do it as written.  Two kicks, settle with double palm heels to the lower ribs.  ("Do what you're told, its good for you."  And it is good).

2) Do the kicks as chicken kicks, landing with the double palm heels as in #1.  (Bruce Lee does Kenpo)

3)  Do it as #1, but instead do downward outward torquing palm heels to the sternum area.   From your palms up in the first move, do the kicks and then as you plant forward, thrust and rotate your hands inward to the sternum area -- when it hits it should look very similar to the "I have open hands" hand position in the salutation where the hands form a triangle.  All in one move, continue the palm heels to spread away from eachother, as if you were pulling one side of the ribcage apart from the other (similar to the very first movement of Parting Wings).   ("I wonder what would happen if I did something just a little different?  Hmmm, not bad.")

4)  One of my favorites -- eliminate the second kick from #3 above.  Step back with palms pulled back, kick, plant forward with the palm heels to the clavicles (since they are bending forward at this point).  Very fast, effective and powerful.  Feels a lot like a wave.  (Two  front kicks in a row?  Not for me.)

5)  Another favorite -- do one right kick to the groin and plant with the lead palm heel to the head.  Formulate and graft into your favorite right hand, right leg lead technique, or leave.  This is a good alternative for big grabber v. small grabbee.  (Some guys can take a pretty powerful strike to the midsection; its difficult to develop the muscle's around the groin and face to withstand impact.)

At any time you might catch me doing one of the above variations (or something else). They all work in their own little ways.   That is the beauty of Kenpo.  Take a base and see what you can get out of it.

But, heck, that is just one Idaho boy's way of looking at it -- what does he know?

Derek


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## FiveSwords (Sep 22, 2003)

> 4) One of my favorites -- eliminate the second kick from #3 above. Step back with palms pulled back, kick, plant forward with the palm heels to the clavicles (since they are bending forward at this point). Very fast, effective and powerful. Feels a lot like a wave. (Two front kicks in a row? Not for me.)



Sweet.  That kind of reminds me of what Mr. Planas does with Flashing Mace.  Get to the point right away and get out.  Good stuff.  :asian:


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