# I watched some of the Gracie's self defence jujitsu.



## Zephyor (Sep 24, 2016)

From the mechaical point of view, what was taught in there was legit. but it was a notable exception.
The way you approach the ataker. 
2 arm's length, safe zone, i get it. mentain distance= common sense.
but then you want to close the gap fast and take the attacker down. 
What mr. Gracie recomended was swiftly lunging into the opponent in a very low stance as soon as he threw a head-level punch. But what if the attacker feinted the punch and he notice you and you rushing in a low stance at him. Backstep + counter. It's almost like inviting the guy to knee you in the head. How could this thing be avoided?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2016)

Zephyor said:


> From the mechaical point of view, what was taught in there was legit. but it was a notable exception.
> The way you approach the ataker.
> 2 arm's length, safe zone, i get it. mentain distance= common sense.
> but then you want to close the gap fast and take the attacker down.
> What mr. Gracie recomended was swiftly lunging into the opponent in a very low stance as soon as he threw a head-level punch. But what if the attacker feinted the punch and he notice you and you rushing in a low stance at him. Backstep + counter. It's almost like inviting the guy to knee you in the head. How could this thing be avoided?



In large part, it's avoided by learning to recognize the mechanics of an attack. Watch some UFC fights, and you'll see guys shooting in under an attack. That's against some of the best fighters in the world, many of whom likely train specifically to mask their movements and deceive their opponent. Yet still the shooter can get in. I'm not saying an effective feint is impossible, but you can make it unlikely to happen in a self-defense situation. Remember, too, that most attackers won't have a cool head. If they did, they wouldn't have started the fight. Given that, most are unlikely to be capable of executing that kind of cool strategy.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 24, 2016)

Zephyor said:


> From the mechaical point of view, what was taught in there was legit. but it was a notable exception.
> The way you approach the ataker.
> 2 arm's length, safe zone, i get it. mentain distance= common sense.
> but then you want to close the gap fast and take the attacker down.
> What mr. Gracie recomended was swiftly lunging into the opponent in a very low stance as soon as he threw a head-level punch. But what if the attacker feinted the punch and he notice you and you rushing in a low stance at him. Backstep + counter. It's almost like inviting the guy to knee you in the head. How could this thing be avoided?




When you close the distance you're supposed to have your arms up around your head to protect it from punches. It's called either the helmet or the cage. 

Further, you come in as your attacker moves towards you, so your attacker shouldn't have the time to back away and counter. You also sometimes see a Gjj practitioner throwing a low side kick to the forward leg and stepping through to close even more distance faster, and giving the attacker less time to react. 

Once you connect to your attacker's body, you enter a clinch. From the clinch, several takedowns and throws are possible.

Don't see how you could knee someone in the head. I'd need to see the video you're referring to.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 24, 2016)

Throw real punches when you enter in. Then level change. That way it forces there hands up and defending.

Now if the other guy is legitimately better at defending and countering a take town than you are at pulling one off. then you will get bashed.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 24, 2016)

In addition to the good points already made, I'll mention that there is a major difference between a self-defense scenario and an MMA fight. In MMA, you are agreeing to fight a skilled opponent who very well may try to use feints to draw you into an attack (such as the low shot for a takedown) so that he can counter. In a self-defense situation, if an "attacker" was dancing around, throwing feints, and not fully committing to an attack, you can simply leave. Just back away quickly until you're well out of range and then take off. He can't catch you if he isn't fully committed to coming forward at you.


----------



## KangTsai (Sep 24, 2016)

A working brain. You wouldn't really commit that much to countering a fake punch (which is quick, and doesn't reach). If the puncher was just some guy with no training (which is most likely), he/she wouldn't throw the most crisp and efficient of punches either, making the takedown easy.


----------



## Zephyor (Sep 25, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> When you close the distance you're supposed to have your arms up around your head to protect it from punches. It's called either the helmet or the cage.
> 
> Further, you come in as your attacker moves towards you, so your attacker shouldn't have the time to back away and counter. You also sometimes see a Gjj practitioner throwing a low side kick to the forward leg and stepping through to close even more distance faster, and giving the attacker less time to react.
> 
> ...


this is the video


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 25, 2016)

If you notice in the video, he is covering his face while (sort of) ducking before stepping in. The actual step in at that point should be quick enough they don't have time to change all their momentum to a knee or another strike, and if they do it while you're ducking you have time to back away. Also, even if they do manage to do something your hands are there to protect you.

This is ignoring what Tony mentioned that in theory someone who is attacking isn't worried about doing fake attacks, or expecting you to respond to a punch with a takedown.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 25, 2016)

There is more nuance to that though. That was a very simplified version.

So it is sort of right and wrong at the same time.


----------



## Buka (Sep 25, 2016)

It's a three minute vid, not a treatise on their entire approach to the subject. Might look that way from the peanut gallery, but the seats aren't always that good.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 25, 2016)

Buka said:


> It's a three minute vid, not a treatise on their entire approach to the subject. Might look that way from the peanut gallery, but the seats aren't always that good.



Yeah.  But OP has kind of a valid point. If you shoot from that far away.  You have a greater risk of getting nailed. 

I could see a guy getting a strike in as the shoot comes in. It can be at least minimised in a few ways.


----------



## Buka (Sep 25, 2016)

From "that far away"? Really?


----------



## drop bear (Sep 25, 2016)

Yep....


----------



## marques (Sep 25, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> If you notice in the video, he is covering his face while (sort of) ducking before stepping in. The actual step in at that point should be quick enough they don't have time to change all their momentum to a knee or another strike, and if they do it while you're ducking you have time to back away. Also, even if they do manage to do something your hands are there to protect you.


Actually, it happened - quick KO knees - even to Gracies (would like to remember the name to find it quick).
Of course, the game evolves and the grapplers also found and solution for that. As strikers needed to find solutions for takedowns...

PS: Cyborg skull fracture was in a quite different context, but a recent and impressive knee to the head.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 25, 2016)

Zephyor said:


> this is the video



Ah, that's a double leg takedown. I thought you were talking about something else...

If you notice, he closes the gap as his opponent steps in. That largely prevents the opponent from stepping backwards, or throwing a knee to your head.

Now that isn't to say that you couldn't get kneed to the face when performing a DLT, it simply takes expert timing to do so. The vast majority of the time, you're not going to have time to react properly to the takedown (grapplers know several takedowns, and you never know what's coming), and you're going to end up on your back. That's why people learn to sprawl instead of trying to knee someone performing that technique.

Anyway, here's some more Gjj gap closers (and more in line with what I thought you were talking about);






Are you currently practicing Gjj?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 25, 2016)

Zephyor said:


> What mr. Gracie recomended was swiftly lunging into the opponent in a very low stance as soon as he threw a head-level punch. But what if the attacker feinted the punch and he notice you and you rushing in a low stance at him. Backstep + counter. It's almost like inviting the guy to knee you in the head. How could this thing be avoided?


This is where a person will need to factor some probability for chance.  In a self defense situation you'll take an initial analysis. If the person looks as if he or she is defending against the shoot then don't do the shoot.   If the person is standing tall as if it's going to be a "punch face contest" then go for the shoot.

Someone who is committed to the punch will have a different stance than someone who is going to feint the punch.  One of the things I tell students during sparring classes is to always make sure that the opponent is committed. 

If you shoot on someone who is looking for you to shoot then you'll get countered.



gpseymour said:


> In large part, it's avoided by learning to recognize the mechanics of an attack.


Totally agree with this. Being able to recognize the mechanic of an attack is going to require that you spar. The human brains have an excellent ability to pick up patterns and motion so once it understands what makes up the mechanics of an attack then you'll be able to recognize various efforts to attack and where those attacks will be.  This is one of the reason why people are told to jab with the elbows down and not out.  One technique makes it difficult to see the mechanics and the other is very easy to see.



Zephyor said:


> this is the video


If you look at the video you posted you can see that the grapplers stance is different from a strikers stance.  Stances optimize techniques, so by looking at the stances you can get a good idea of what techniques that person is trying to optimize.  You can watch UFC fights all day and you'll notice that people take certain stances for certain types of techniques.  They also have different movement based on the techniques that they are going to do.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 25, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you look at the video you posted you can see that the grapplers stance is different from a strikers stance. Stances optimize techniques, so by looking at the stances you can get a good idea of what techniques that person is trying to optimize. You can watch UFC fights all day and you'll notice that people take certain stances for certain types of techniques. They also have different movement based on the techniques that they are going to do.



You should really try not to change stance before you shoot by the way.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 25, 2016)

drop bear said:


> You should really try not to change stance before you shoot by the way.


I can still tell the difference in the stance and the movement  before the shoot.  I spend a lot of time focusing on stances, and I can still see a clear difference.  He throws boxing jabs but his stance and movement says something else.


----------



## wingchun100 (Sep 26, 2016)

You would have to be close to try for a punch (unless you have ridiculously long arms). By the time you are in range, I don't know that you would have time for a step back and counter. My guess is you would need ultra fast reflexes for that, given how little room there is for error.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 30, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> The human brains have an excellent ability to pick up patterns


It turns out pattern matching is at the root of most expertise (chess, music, martial arts, etc.).


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 30, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> It turns out pattern matching is at the root of most expertise (chess, music, martial arts, etc.).


Correct.  Science has stated that biologically it's a survival skill that's rooted genetically and martial arts may have understood this long before science.  In terms of martial arts pattern recognition can either be a big help such as recognizing telltale signs or it can be a horrible curse.

Some of the lessons that I train for myself and with student in fighting and self-defense is how to be more conscious about pattern recognition.  In terms of sparring and fighting I train students how to exploit humans natural ability to recognize patterns.  For example:  If I'm fighting, I can throw 2 sets of double jabs.  So the pattern looks like the following
1st Pattern: double jab with lead hand
2nd Pattern: double jab with lead hand
3rd Pattern: lead jab then kick.

The body will subconsciously recognize the 1st Pattern.  The fighter will conscious understand the 2nd pattern and conscious look for it.  The 3rd pattern is me exploiting  this natural programming of pattern recognition.   I often tell students that they should be always be active in reprogramming their opponent.

I also teach about pattern commitment, which is when a fighter is honestly committed to a pattern.  BJJ guys are often committed to a specific stance even when they are punching, TKD guys are often committed to a specific stance as well.  If a person can recognize when this pattern occurs then it possible to get good idea of what will attack will come next or what defense and counter will be used.  Our bodies naturally pick this stuff up, but it doesn't mean much to us because we don't train to consciously to something with it so many times it passes off as "intuition" where the fighter just felt that his opponent was going to try something specific. 
Here you can see that one fighter is committed to a kick and the other is committed to a punch.  For Hapkido, the lead foot and the position of the body gives it away. Lead Foot pointing forward with slight lean forward means punch is favored.  Both feet pointing in the same direction with toes pointing away from opponent means kick is favored.  If a punch is thrown while feet are pointed for kicking, then the punch won't be a committed and will often been thrown without power.  





Every system has it's own pattern and with each physical pattern three is a timing pattern that can be exploited as well.  Some times my sparring classes seem more like a science class than a sparring class..  I can probably write a book about this subject.


----------



## Buka (Sep 30, 2016)

The more fight savvy a striker gets, the more he lies with his feet.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 30, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I can still tell the difference in the stance and the movement  before the shoot.  I spend a lot of time focusing on stances, and I can still see a clear difference.  He throws boxing jabs but his stance and movement says something else.



It is a bit harder to do while dodging punches.


----------

