# Martial Arts Certifications



## DuneViking (Apr 11, 2005)

WTF, ITF or other certifications recognized by larger authorities imply some greater acheivment. What exactly do they mean? Are they needed? Which ones do you recommend, if any? Does lack of such an endorsement imply some failing? Have these certifying agencies ever changed, come and gone, or evolved? From what to what? Come on all you MA professors with years of experience, travel and training, share your knowledge and hard work, step forward and be recognized and help out the new generation!


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## glad2bhere (Apr 11, 2005)

Dear DV: 

I know that you are looking for information so this may not be of much help but I pass it along for what it is worth to you. 

The paperwork of which you speak is worth nothing---- unless you are communicating with people for whom paper is important. I know. That sounds like double-talk, but work with me for a second. 

I am sure you graduated Grammar School, yes? Did you get a piece of paper? How much has that piece of paper meant to your current status? Maybe it made your parents all warm&fuzzy when you got it, but has anyone else been interested? I mean, apart from the actual experience of graduating to go on to HS what did that paper mean? 

How about High School? What about College? How about post-collegiate work? Does any of that paper actual "mean" anything? When it comes time to actually perform work or accomplish a task noone really cares about the paper. What they want to know is whether you can do the work. There have been a number of people in the World today (Bill Gates for instance) who actually dropped out of College to make his career. How many people ask Bill Gates for his paper? 

And what about the MA paper and its promises? Common license included with having such paper is rank recognition, acceptance into organizational events and the opportunity to connect with like-minded individuals. Lets take a look at these. 

a.) If someone is NOT going to recognize your rank, will the paper MAKE them? 
b.) Do you know of ANYONE who ever turned up to an event and was turned away because they were NOT a member? 
c.) Might a person without paper be able to connect with the people of their choice independent of the paper? 

Please let me close by taking a moment to turn the coin over for a minute. 

1.) Until the Japanese Occupation the martial traditions of Korea did very well (thank you very much) without the need for paper, rank and associations. The Hapkido Arts existed and were promoted throughout the Choson Dynasty and continue today. I don't see where the rank and paper system has helped at all. 

2.) I am still trying to find where the possession of paper as made the Hapkido arts better. We still have people misrepresenting themselves. We still have people committing fraud. We still have people contriving rank and standing. 

3.) This practice can be stopped in our generation if people would just choose to quit worrying about the paper and start worrying about the art. Other cultures are moving ahead and refining their arts generation after generation. In Korea, practitioners are more worried about image and how they are perceived, than what they do or are passing on. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Andy Cap (Apr 11, 2005)

Great post Master Simms - as usual


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## DuneViking (Apr 11, 2005)

Excellent post G2BH!


That is exactly the type of intelligent dissertation I was hoping would appear. I hold one certification from the Korean Tae Kwon Do Asociation of America because my instructor was under them at the time. The rest are from his organization.  I know what I know. His recognition is what is important to me.

Your response does not seem like doubletalk to me, it is the same opinion I have. I know there are of plenty of Microsoft certified professionals who don't know their material, they have forgotten it after the test or just trained to pass the test.

I am curious in the opinions on both sides of the question. Thanks again for your contibution.


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## TX_BB (Apr 11, 2005)

DuneViking said:
			
		

> WTF, ITF or other certifications recognized by larger authorities imply some greater acheivment. What exactly do they mean?


That you were able to get a large number of powerful people to submit their power for a higher goal. In this case for the promotion of TKD and sport TKD. That the person with this certification has met the guidlines of this particular organizer. The power and prestige comes about when enough people recongnize a high quality output from the organizations or vice/versa. WTF Black belt certification qualifies the holder for formal the opportunity towards a representing His/her country at the Olympics, World Games...



			
				DuneViking said:
			
		

> Are they needed?


Depends on what your going to do. Generally people can defend themselves from an attacker far from Black Belt.



			
				DuneViking said:
			
		

> Which ones do you recommend, if any? Does lack of such an endorsement imply some failing?


Depends on what your needs are? The lack of endorsement may reflect on the instructors inability to comply with the oraganizations rules, this can be a plus or a minus. It is the ultimate in instructor autonomy. To see if this is really a big deal for you please read the posts on picking a MA (in the beginers corner) or see http://www.mackido.com/MartialArts/index.html choosing a MA.


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## Brad Dunne (Apr 11, 2005)

How about High School? What about College? How about post-collegiate work? Does any of that paper actual "mean" anything? 

Yes it does........ Not to belabor the issue, but employers are looking for the best people they can find. Now does having that piece of paper make you better than another without it? Mabey not in the long term, but it does for being accepted for the position being sought. Some areas of the country, you won't even be considered for a particular position unless you have "some paper".

Now to transpose this to the martial arts. We all realize that there is a proliferation of bogus credentials out there. Since there is really no difinitive high court that oversee's, the best we can do is attempt to align with someone or something we have come to trust. Using the Korean arts as an example, it stands to reason that credentials coming from Korea would have a greater impact than something from Lenny's TKD emporium. That's not to say that Lenny didn't teach good stuff, but when someone is looking for that piece of paper, which one do you think they will lean towards? That piece of paper is the first step in getting people in the door. People today are or seem to be more educated in looking for the credability of the person running the school they wish to attend. Paper gives them the first step in determining said credability.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 11, 2005)

Dear Brad: 

Thank you very much. You came to the point quite readily. The position that you stated is EXACTLY the issue raised time and again and EXACTLY the point I was working to make. 

The use of paper is only important in terms of people who desire for that paper to be important. Your example of hiring is exactly right. In my case I was actually denied work time and again because my MA degree OVER-qualified me. Will someone please tell me how you can be OVERQUALIFIED to perform a task? In my book you are either qualified or not. Being OVERQUALIFIED suggests that a person can be "too much educated". The fact of the matter is that in my case paper was used not to identify my qualifications as to screen me in or out. 

How about the people who gauge a school by how much paper is on the wall. Once again we are talking about image NOT competence. I create an image of myself in the peoples minds so that they will patronize my school. Have anything to do with being competent. Not really as percentages indicate that only 1% (1 out of 100) will actually stick around to make Chodan. On top of that the failure rate for MA schools is about four years. Those citizens will never be around me long enough to find out I don't know anything. 

Lastly, lets say that a person has bought himself a 7th or 8th dan certificate by jumping from organization to organization. OK, so it cost him a few bucks but he has it hung tastefully on the wall. And lets say a particularly sharp person figures out in the first year that this turkey knows next to zip about what he is teaching--- at least certainly not 7th or 8th dan worth. WHO ARE YOU GOING TO COMPLAIN TO???? You are getting taught MA so you can't ***** to the BBB. You are getting taught MA so you can't ***** to the organization? If the guy closes down and makes off with the money, then its a different situation, but barring that, what are you gonna do if the quality control behind that paper sucks?? 

No, I'm sorry, I stand with my original position. Paper in the MA is not worth the ink thats printed on the front of it. The paper is suppose to attest to my relationship with my teacher. I have had that for years and I don't need paper to remind me of how fortunate I am. People who don't care for me (or my teacher) are not going to care about my paper no matter WHAT I do. 

Oh--- and the consumers? To bad really but they are going to get what they deserve. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Mithios (Apr 11, 2005)

Bruce, You are the man!;-) You posted what i was thinking, and put it to the keyboard much better than i would have. You must have supper mind reading KI ability  

Mithios


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## Miles (Apr 11, 2005)

As Bruce pointed out, the certificate itself is just paper.

 It is what it represents which is important.  If you have a Kukkiwon certificate, it is understood globally to mean that you have mastered a given number of requirements.  A certificate from a not-so-well-known organization does not mean you are less-talented, it just may not be understood by as many people.  People still may not recognize your ability or level if you can't perform in the dojang, regardless of what the certificate says or who issued it.

 Certificates ("suffer tickets" as I've heard them described  are also "foot-in-the doors" for other things.  As TX BB points out, a Kukkiwon certificate is needed for entry into the Olympics or any WTF-sanctioned tournament (except the US Open).  It is also a requirement to participate in the Kukkiwon Instructor Course.

 The bottom line is one should train for yourself, not for your paper.  If the paper comes, great, if not, you still have skills...

 Miles


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## glad2bhere (Apr 11, 2005)

Dear Miles and Mithios: 

Of course you know this brings up a VERY interesting point, and one  in which I am deep in the middle. Consider this for a moment. What does one do when the focus of study is a skill for which there is no rank. I extend this to you for your consideration. 

In the Kwan to which I belong there are 6 traditional weapons--- one associated with each dan rank 1-6. In order they are soh bong, dan bong, cane, sword, staff, and knife. OK, so I am 4th dan and have been working on my sword material for a few years being lucky enough to train under a master swordsman right here in Chicago. Just dumb luck for me. But now that I can handle a Ye-do reasonably well, I have also started to study the Ssang Soo Do, the Wol-Do and the Hyup Do. Just learning to wield the Ye-do  already exceeded the juk-to or "bamboo sword" work of my Kwan. The rest of this research I am doing along with others of similar interests & is entirely on my own.  Think about that for a minute. No paper. No certs. My own teacher could not validate my work _even if he wanted to _ since I have already moved beyond anything he would have required of me.  What would have happened had I needed paper?  Would I have stopped where HE stopped because there was no paper to be had?  When I start with my 5th dan work in about another 5 years or so I will certainly do the staff work but I will also be researching the cudgeol and the spear. Once again there will be no paper. Maybe I should just forget about it, right?  I mean, if there is no paper to be had why waste the time, right?  :idunno: 

I think the point I am working to make is does the pursuit of paper damn our arts to mediocrity because people see no motivation to delve deeper into the material?  Thoughts? Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Mithios (Apr 11, 2005)

I think the point I am working to make is does the pursuit of paper damn our arts to mediocrity because people see no motivation to delve deeper into the material?  Thoughts? Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce[/QUOTE]

I think it does, alot more than we care to know. I see more and more people who only wan't the wall candy, and don't care if they really learn anything or not, or better yet, won't do it at all if there is no certificate, belt, etc. Of course i also see people with cert's coming out the wazoo, that don't know the material they should, or can't do it worth a crap! or both! But these individuals have the biggest school's etc. Go figure!!

Mithios


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## zac_duncan (Apr 12, 2005)

Mithios said:
			
		

> I think it does, alot more than we care to know. I see more and more people who only wan't the wall candy, and don't care if they really learn anything or not, or better yet, won't do it at all if there is no certificate, belt, etc. Of course i also see people with cert's coming out the wazoo, that don't know the material they should, or can't do it worth a crap! or both! But these individuals have the biggest school's etc. Go figure!!


This might offend some people, if so, I apologize. The internet is a hard place to convey emotion.


This is cert-seeking is something I've seen a lot of... it comes down to a simple truth. There are a lot of people who practice martial arts, but few martial artists. Those people that seek the paper or flaunt the paper often don't care about the art. They care about the image. These are the people who like to be black belts because people who aren't into martial arts are impressed by that. It's an accomplishment to brag about, even if it's meaningless in a martial sense. 

I often times wish that the entire concept of rank in MA would simply disappear. Certainly, if you're a student of your art, you can recognize a teacher whern you see them. This would make it difficult for beginners to find instructors, but if you try, I believe you can. I would prefer a world where skill speaks for itself, but unfortunately, the popularity of MA means that charlatans would jump on the openness of a rankless system and scam even more peoplle than they are currently scamming. 


It's unfortunate that true skill as a martial artist and a teacher is less of a draw than a peice of paper or an empty dan rank. I suppose on the plus side it does, though, to some extent separate the wheat from the chaff.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 12, 2005)

Yup, hence the reason many schools "guarantee a black belt in 2-3 years".  Lots of people care more about the belt and paper then about actually learning anything.

 Appearances mean everything to some people. 

 Diets do the same, who cares if you're healthy, as long as you are skinny right? 

 Post secondary education - Same thing, many come in and want to know "What do I need to do to get the certificate"  and that is it...

 Are certificates important?

 Sometimes, eductation ones are because often you can't even get your foot in the door without one.  Many employeers won't even consider you if you don't have a high school diploma, or University or whatever.

 But a foot in the door is all it is cause without the skills that they want the paper doesn't matter.

 But there is a big difference from martial arts to education when it comes to certification, and that is schools are accreddited.  Martial Arts organizations are not.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 12, 2005)

"....It's unfortunate that true skill as a martial artist and a teacher is less of a draw than a peice of paper or an empty dan rank. I suppose on the plus side it does, though, to some extent separate the wheat from the chaff....." 

Yup, and as I say, the single thing that concerns me the most above everything else is the way the KMA are gradually disappearing. In a way it reminds me of what happened to ju-jutsu in Japan. During the Tokugawa Shogunate the records report carnival-like events where people dressed in garish outfits put on "demo-s" of strongman feats and exotic mental abilities. Later Kano took two or three lines of Ju-jutsu and reorganized it to produce Judo. The Judo went into the Olympics and we lost the ground-fighting, choking and pinning. I see the same thing happening with the KMA. Each generation seems to trim back a little until you can't find some material. Currently I am having a helluva time finding people who still know the original Korean knife material. What a pain. And I'll be damned if I will go attend some Escrima workshop and pass off knifework from another culture as "jen-u-whine Koe-REE-yun" knife material. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## zac_duncan (Apr 12, 2005)

Getting a little off-topic here, but I had to address this. 



> Yup, and as I say, the single thing that concerns me the most above everything else is the way the KMA are gradually disappearing.


Bruce, that is a frustrating and saddening thought. It's really disapointing that more of these great, aging masters aren't out there writing books or making videos... without these things these men will take something vital with them when they die. 

I applaud your efforts to learn Korean knife material rather than tacking on another cultures techniques and calling it Korean. But I have this question, if you find someone to teach you these original Korean techniques, will you look attempt to get some form of documentation proving you learned these techniques from the individual you learned them from? 

To dovetail with the point of this thread, without some form of certificate how will the world konw that the techniques you learned are actually Korean, in other words how would we know whether your techniques are Korean or the whether the FMA someone else tacked on is? Does that make sense? 

Thoughts?


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## glad2bhere (Apr 12, 2005)

Dear Zac: 

And within the context of American thinking you are spot-on. Within the context of generations of Korean practiioners nobody really cared. You either knew it or you didn't. But let me play the Devils Advocate here for just a minute. 

Lets say I DO go somewhere and learn some material and pass it off as Korean. 

a.) Wouldn't I be smart enough to have some paper printed up and get some fancy doo-dads to make it look impressive? 

or

b.) Someone begins to notice that my 'Korean" material looks a heck of a lot like, say, Italian Foil. What are they gonna do? Maybe they raise a big stink and put my name in all the papers and I just keep telling everyone that they are wrong. In time the noise dies down and I keep defrauding people. Happens all the time. 

No, from where I sit the important part is *not* whether or not anyone accepts that what I am doing is legit. People have no more reason to believe me than anyone else. I could just be another fakir for all THEY know. For me, what counts is trying to keep this information alive. I travel all over the Midwest and even to the East Coast--- a lot of times on my own dime--- just to be able to teach and know that people are getting legit material and not some BS someone thought up in their garage. I give away more information on hyung, drills, history and so forth than anything else. The trick is to get the legit information out there and quit trying to make a buck off it every time a person turns around. Otherwise you can just bend-over and kiss all of these traditions good-bye. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Bob D. (Apr 12, 2005)

I'll Start a new tread regarding Korean knife.


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## Miles (Apr 12, 2005)

Bruce said:
			
		

> I think the point I am working to make is does the pursuit of paper damn our arts to mediocrity because people see no motivation to delve deeper into the material? Thoughts? Comments?





			
				Mithios said:
			
		

> I think it does, alot more than we care to know. I see more and more people who only wan't the wall candy, and don't care if they really learn anything or not, or better yet, won't do it at all if there is no certificate, belt, etc. Of course i also see people with cert's coming out the wazoo, that don't know the material they should, or can't do it worth a crap! or both! But these individuals have the biggest school's etc. Go figure! Mithios


 The "paper" only be should be the by-product, not the goal.  But honestly, if someone is so concerned about the "paper", have they really learned the lessons of the art?  I think not.  It is the same (IMO) with folks who have stripes up and down their belts, multi-colored doboks covered in patches, etc. These extraneous things which scream for out for attention.  Clothes/stripes/certificates do not make the martial artist.  Let's just get down to basics and train.  

 Miles


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## DuneViking (Apr 15, 2005)

Thanks for the continuing discussion!!! Great points backed up with logical analysis and discussion!!

Yes, there are pros and cons to paper. It is a tool and can be used by those who have honor as well as by those who do not.


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## searcher (Apr 16, 2005)

Miles said:
			
		

> Clothes/stripes/certificates do not make the martial artist. Let's just get down to basics and train.
> 
> Miles


Very well put Miles.


A few years ago I would have been on the side that paper is good for wiping your butt.   That was until I saw that the State of New Jersey now requires that all MA school owners be registered and must show proof of their rank and status.   This got me to pondering if the other states would follow N.J. and start requiring registration of rank before allowing a BB to open a school.   For this reason and this reason alone I sought out to get all of my ranks recognized and "certified."   What this does is allows for anyone questioning my rank or legitimacy to go to the national orgainzation that has certified me and check my credentials.    It also gives parents of young students and students themselves piece of mind that they are not learning from an unqualified instructor or from a sexual predator.    I am not saying that all organizations are legit nor am I saying that they all have the background checks the same way some have, but if an instructor or student seeks out a reputable organization they will also have piece of mind.

So what I am trying to say is that there are some good things that come from being affiliated with a quality organization.


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## Miles (Apr 16, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> This got me to pondering if the other states would follow N.J. and start requiring registration of rank before allowing a BB to open a school. For this reason and this reason alone I sought out to get all of my ranks recognized and "certified." What this does is allows for anyone questioning my rank or legitimacy to go to the national orgainzation that has certified me and check my credentials. .......So what I am trying to say is that there are some good things that come from being affiliated with a quality organization.


 Thanks Searcher.  I have an additional comment though about certification and registration of ranks since this is a nuance of the same topic.  I hope nobody will take this the wrong way.  Usually I am pretty optimistic.

 If the legislatures of other states follow that of New Jersey and require someone to be certified before he/she can teach MA publicly, the Legislature may create a commission to set up the certification process. 

 The Commissioners may all be Brazilian Ju-jitsu folks, or Tai Chi Chuan practitioners, or (_name an art other than those you practice here_).  This may mean that your certifications (and mine will NOT be recognized. 

 I think it ironic that I have a document stating I am certified as an Instructor by the World HQ of TKD but the State of MI may decide my credential isn't worth the paper its printed on. 

 Miles


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## searcher (Apr 16, 2005)

Miles said:
			
		

> If the legislatures of other states follow that of New Jersey and require someone to be certified before he/she can teach MA publicly, the Legislature may create a commission to set up the certification process.
> 
> The Commissioners may all be Brazilian Ju-jitsu folks, or Tai Chi Chuan practitioners, or (_name an art other than those you practice here_). This may mean that your certifications (and mine will NOT be recognized.
> 
> ...


It is a trult scary thought that the government is getting more involved with the martial arts.   It gets you to thinking back the how the Okinawans had to teach in secret after the Satsuma samurai clan forbid them from training or possessing any weapons and also how the Koreans had to train in secret to hide from the Japanese.   Are we going to be next?   Can you imagine having to train in secret for fear of imprisionment or death?

Very scary indeed.


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 17, 2005)

Keeping in mind that your average legislature knows zilch about martial arts training, letting them decide who gets to teach and who doesn't is absurd. Let's say that a legislator on the committee is a Shotokan guy. Do you really think he's going to make it easy for Tae Kwon Do or Kenpo instructors to be state certified? Would he even be familiar with their training and what they have to go through to get to the instructor level?
It is no different than at open tournaments when the referee is karate, and one of the fighters is Tae Kwon Do and the other is Karate. Guess who is going to lose?


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## Han-Mi (Apr 17, 2005)

Some instructors have refused to recognize the rank of a few of our higher black belts because we do not have a WTF "NUMBER", at least until they saw tht our skill heald right up with there "standards, if not surpassing them.  Our blackbelts are certified by a 9th dan who sat on the WTF council, it just happens to be much cheaper not to have the WTF certify us directly.  Certification is not such a big deal in my eyes, as long as you can show that you deserve the rank you hold. And one of our black belts has just joined the U.S. Army's TKD team, without the official WTF certification. Our certification and his skill was good enough for the army, I would suppose it should be good enough for any other governing entity.


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## Miles (Apr 17, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> It gets you to thinking back the how the Okinawans had to teach in secret after the Satsuma samurai clan forbid them from training or possessing any weapons and also how the Koreans had to train in secret to hide from the Japanese. Are we going to be next? Can you imagine having to train in secret for fear of imprisionment or death?  Very scary indeed.


   Well, what I am envisioning may not be quite so bad-more like a civil penalty (i.e. fine) versus a criminal penalty (i.e. imprisonment).  For instance, if the State Bar of Michigan heard of someone practicing law without a license, it would go after that person and there would be a fine-it might not be a crime unless the person misrepresented to the public that he is a licensed attorney.  In MI, you need to hold licenses for many professions.  It would not surprise me if eventually martial arts instructors had to be licensed, like barbers.....("the public has to be protected"-that's the mantra of those pushing this sort of legislation)

 Miles


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 17, 2005)

The problem is, who do you certify and regulate something that is, by and large, still a novelty in this country? Martial arts have been available on a widespread basis in this country for only about 40 years or so. How would the gov't possibly decide who is a worthy teacher and who is not? Would you have to be certified by a governing board in your art's home country? Who would be on this board? What happens if, say, the TKD board contains someone or people that your instructor has disagreements with?
The difference between certifying instructors and certifying teachers is that everyone must go to school, whether public or private. Therefore, you should make sure that the teachers your child will be exposed to are qualified. You don't have to practice martial arts. And if you disagree with an instructor's style, you can go somewhere else. It's not that easy with schools. I think economics and word of mouth should determine who can teach and why.


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## Miles (Apr 18, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> How would the gov't possibly decide who is a worthy teacher and who is not? Would you have to be certified by a governing board in your art's home country? Who would be on this board? What happens if, say, the TKD board contains someone or people that your instructor has disagreements with?... I think economics and word of mouth should determine who can teach and why.


Who would decide? Dunno-but I can say that generally speaking (sorry, lawyer's weasel words!) a politician has a friend who knows somebody who knows something about (**enter topic here-let's choose TKD for sake of discussion). The politician gets other politicians (i.e. governor/executive) to appoint a commission where they study the issue. There are potential problems at each step of the process.

I tend to disagree with your last statement about economics and word of mouth-not fully disagree because I think to some extent the "market" may dictate who is a good instructor or not. But, many people can be fleeced by a quick-talking salesperson. "Word of mouth" as it means reputation within the martial arts community is a better way of measuring who should be certified, but MI TKD, you yourself pointed out the potential problem: what if someone in a position of authority has a disagreement with a reputable instructor?

Miles


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 18, 2005)

Exactly. What if a member of the governing state board for Tae Kwon Do and my instructor have political and personal disagreements? The board member would undoubtably make it much harder for an instructor in our organization to teach.
Anyway, having the gov't issue licenses to teach martial arts smacks of Communist China, where only state-recognized Wushu is allowed, or Korea during the Japanese Occupation.
Something tells me the state would not only regulate WHO would teach, but what the curriculum would be, making it watered down and safe for all.
I think martial arts students and parents should decide who teaches or doesn't by voting with their wallets. If noone will study under you, you don't teach.


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## Brad Dunne (Apr 18, 2005)

Just for argumental sake, here's a thought for the "Who" for the overseeing body, the AAU. They have been involved with the American Olympic movement for a long time and in general is respected by the politicans. Another game plan for the politicans to choose would be asking the movie star martial artists, i.e. Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace, etc... Rest assured, If the politicans think they can make a buck from regulating the arts, they will not hesitate. The hand writting is on the wall as we speak. Several states are reportedly seriously looking into the matter. If one states does it, that opens the flood gates. Understand, there most likely will be a back door to this effort. I would assume that it would only affect commerical schools. Therefor there would still be some teaching venues that would not be affected, at least in the beginning.


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## Miles (Apr 18, 2005)

Brad, not sure the AAU could do  the overseeing because it is a sports organization.  If it were to be national in scope, how about the Dept of Homeland Security-their mandate seems to cover just about everything?

 Miles


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## Brad Dunne (Apr 18, 2005)

Brad, not sure the AAU could do the overseeing because it is a sports organization. If it were to be national in scope, how about the Dept of Homeland Security-their mandate seems to cover just about everything?

The only reason I mentioned the AAU is that they already have a certification process in place. Granted, as you pointed out, they are more intuned with the sport aspect of the arts, but they are a known entity. Homeland Security has it's hands full with trying to faciliate an understanding of how to coordinate safeguards thruout the country with regional and local resources. It's doubtful that they would even entertain the thought of getting envolved with something as mundane as "Karate Schools", but you never know.....


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## floweringknight (Apr 18, 2005)

Hello all, 

Great points made by everyone. And a very real and scary situation - regulation. Here is another angle (as in counter-offensive); always thinking like a martial artist! 
What if you / I / we were to simply add Taoism, Buddhism, Confusionism, Cathalisism, or etc. to our curriculum and proclamed ourselves to be a religious organization? We would then be protected by our own Constitution, wouldn't have to pay taxes, and pretty much could do as we please.....
Granted this is an extreme example. Thoughts? Comments?
Please excuse the ambiguous ramblings of this low ranking novice.


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## shesulsa (Apr 18, 2005)

That's an interesting consideration, SBN.  However, it does appear that the separation of church and state might preclude that we might be told where and when we can and can't practice our "religion."

 However, it does seem plausible that a faith exemption might offer some protection as well.


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 19, 2005)

Unfortunately, listing yourself as a Buddhist, Catholic, Taoist, or any other religious affiliation to earn an exemption might also drive students away who don't want to study under an overtly religious school. And if you explain that it is merely to earn an exemption, you will be uncovered.
I'm not really sure what the solution is. If you make the certification process too general it accomplishes nothing. And if it is too strict, you would likely eliminate a lot of otherwise good instructors. But again, who certifies and what criteria do they use?


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## floweringknight (Apr 19, 2005)

One thing is for certain: WHEN (not if) this happens, it is going to be ugly! I wonder if we could follow the path set by the NRA. As in the right to bear arms (and legs)??? Thoughts?


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## floweringknight (Apr 19, 2005)

Please keep in mind that I am offering these "suggestions" as a way of stimulating thinking and dialog - that is all. Did that sound like a disclaimer? wow


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## shesulsa (Apr 19, 2005)

floweringknight said:
			
		

> Please keep in mind that I am offering these "suggestions" as a way of stimulating thinking and dialog - that is all. Did that sound like a disclaimer? wow


 HAHAHAHAHA!!!!  Yes it did, sir.


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## TigerWoman (Apr 19, 2005)

heheh...thinking about my dojang and how our master calls it a Christian school excluding others as it becomes more and more obvious...stuff on the walls, on the website, bible studies during workouts.  So I guess we already have that exemption if they do that.  TW


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## searcher (Apr 19, 2005)

I guess we will all have to role with the punches.   No pun intended.    As long as we don't give them anything that they(the polititions) can use against us then we won't have to worry about it.

Do any of you use the certifications to help with your student recruitment or with students retention?   I have seen many less than average instructors, ok they are really poor, use their certifications to get students and to "steal" students from other instructors.  Very dis-honorable, but effective.


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## Miles (Apr 19, 2005)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> Homeland Security has it's hands full with trying to faciliate an understanding of how to coordinate safeguards thruout the country with regional and local resources. It's doubtful that they would even entertain the thought of getting envolved with something as mundane as "Karate Schools", but you never know.....


 I think you are right-Homeland Security probably has bigger fish to fry than the mundane Karate schools....I'm thinking maybe they'll go after the Ninja folks.   Seriously though, there was something on the radio yesterday about how little preparation has gone on to prevent another terrorist attack.  And today is the anniversary of OK City.  Sad, very sad.


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## floweringknight (Apr 19, 2005)

I actually had a spy sent to my school from the "other school" to steal technique, etc. So they got white belt techniques......and the funny part? These are what they are now teaching their Black Belts! I offered to go over and make sure they were doing them correctly......The idea didn't go over well, but the look on their faces was truly priceless!!!I have my certificates on the wall, but I don't flaunt them. Just as a Dr. or a lawyer would.


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## shesulsa (Apr 20, 2005)

floweringknight said:
			
		

> ...So they got white belt techniques......and the funny part? These are what they are now teaching their Black Belts! I offered to go over and make sure they were doing them correctly......The idea didn't go over well, but the look on their faces was truly priceless!!!


 :rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 20, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> I guess we will all have to role with the punches. No pun intended. As long as we don't give them anything that they(the polititions) can use against us then we won't have to worry about it.
> 
> Do any of you use the certifications to help with your student recruitment or with students retention? I have seen many less than average instructors, ok they are really poor, use their certifications to get students and to "steal" students from other instructors. Very dis-honorable, but effective.


I generally relied on two methods to increase enrollment:
1. Letting the work speak for itself (thank you Johnny Carson)
2. Word of mouth. People will not recommend bad schools to their friends and family.


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## Basicman (Apr 22, 2005)

I think the certificate is meaningless to everyone but the person who earned it.  I think posting it so everyone can see is one thing, but explaining to the average person who I got this from, would be like a Doctor trying to explain to you who his/her professors were.  People don't care.  I think the certificate is more for the holder.  I know when I look at mine, it reminds about that period in my life what I was doing with myself.  Not only through the martial arts, but other personal events.  That certificate has meaning for me, but my wife could care less.  I guess what I am trying to say is that it is a piece of paper, what's inside the person is what matters more.


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## Andy Cap (Apr 22, 2005)

Miles said:
			
		

> If the legislatures of other states follow that of New Jersey and require someone to be certified before he/she can teach MA publicly, the Legislature may create a commission to set up the certification process.
> 
> The Commissioners may all be Brazilian Ju-jitsu folks, or Tai Chi Chuan practitioners, or (_name an art other than those you practice here_).  This may mean that your certifications (and mine will NOT be recognized.
> 
> ...


 Government has no place in martial arts.  

 This is the way I look at it...I am not concerned about Tang Soo Do or Tae Kwon Do or any other Do growing into some huge business.  I am not concerned about what the general populace thinks of my rank or my certificate.  I care not what any of you think.  What matters is my students and what they think and what they get from my instruction.  I live martial arts through my students and my school.  The rest is external and insignificant.

 This sounds harsh, but I do not mean it to be. I simply mean that I practice martial arts out of love,a dn i teach martial arts for the very same reason.  The people that worry about certificates and stripes and ribbons and trophies are worried about recognition.  Do your art for yourself, and the rest does not matter.  I have been a black belt then a white belt, and then a midnight blue belt, and then again to a black belt.  I could care less what belt or certificate I have.  Actuall, I have made a serious error - I do care because my certificate was from a man I completely respect and it has another man's name on it that I owe so much to.  It has my instructor's signature, adn it has Hwang Kee's signature.  This is important to me for sentimental reasons, and has no bearing on teh value in any other sense as far as I am concerned.

 So, if you are concerned about the organization because you worry about who is going to honor that certificate, well you have greater problems.  You have already decided that you are leaving that organization at some point, and need your rank to stand up.  Good luck.


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 22, 2005)

One serious problem I have with government boards to recognize instructors:

The government knows squat about martial arts, because martial arts are a recent development in this country. Because the government knows nothing about martial arts, much less Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Kung Fu, Aikido etc., they would undoubtably think one instructor was as good as another and _anyone_ with a certain rank, or even claiming a certain rank would, in their eyes, be just as qualified to sit on the board. Who's to say that some joker who claims 7th Dan in the "World Tae Kwon Do League" or some Soke organization wouldn't get a spot on the Board? The gov't may very well think "He says he's 8th Dan, so he must be." It's different with baseball or basketball. We know who the legitimate players and figures are. Not so with martial arts. Could very well be the ones who are in magazines often might be picked because their face recognition is higher. Their credentials might be in serious question, but the gov't might say "He's in magazines often, he must know what he's doing."


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## Han-Mi (Apr 23, 2005)

It's great to have some kind of quality control, but I have seen people with WTF certificates that in my oppinion did not deserve the rank they held. My rank is certified under a grand master that is integral in the Kukkiwon, but is devoid of the actual number, and that and my skill has been enough for all whom I have met. Those who have questioned my fellow students rank have eaten their words after training with them or simply watching them perfom the hyungs.  Certification is imortant for public knowledge, within the school itself and within yourself, all that counts is the ability you hold within


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## Andy Cap (Apr 23, 2005)

Han-Mi said:
			
		

> It's great to have some kind of quality control, but I have seen people with WTF certificates that in my oppinion did not deserve the rank they held. My rank is certified under a grand master that is integral in the Kukkiwon, but is devoid of the actual number, and that and my skill has been enough for all whom I have met. Those who have questioned my fellow students rank have eaten their words after training with them or simply watching them perfom the hyungs. Certification is imortant for public knowledge, within the school itself and within yourself, all that counts is the ability you hold within


 I agree.  My current instructor accepted my rank.  He asked to see my certificate initially, but in truth never saw it and didn't care.  As he said, he knows a master when he sees one.  A most flattering statement for me.  I agree with it though.  I know a martial artists training by watching them and listening to them for a few days.  I don't need to see a piece of paper from some overblown commercial organization.


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## Miles (Apr 24, 2005)

Han-Mi said:
			
		

> It's great to have some kind of quality control, but I have seen people with WTF certificates that in my oppinion did not deserve the rank they held.


 So your problem is really with the person who recommended them for Kukkiwon rank advancement, not the Kukkiwon.  The WTF does not issue rank certificates (though it did for a short time in the mid-70s).



			
				Han-Mi said:
			
		

> My rank is certified under a grand master that is integral in the Kukkiwon, but is devoid of the actual number, and that and my skill has been enough for all whom I have met. Those who have questioned my fellow students rank have eaten their words after training with them or simply watching them perfom the hyungs.


 Han-Mi, if I read the above quote properly, your instructor is Kukkiwon-certified but does not apply for Kukkiwon rank certificates for his/her students?

 I too believe you can be technically proficient without having any sort of certification-Kung Fu folks have been doing this for centuries.  I do think however, that since the TKD pioneers sacrificed so much so that TKD could be an international art, that if you have the ability to provide Kukkiwon certification to your students, you should do so.  This is my opinion.




			
				Han-Mi said:
			
		

> Certification is imortant for public knowledge, within the school itself and within yourself, all that counts is the ability you hold within


 Actually, I have never ever had a prospective student ask to see my certification.  They are not display on a wall at the dojang.  I keep them in a suitcase in my basement.   

 Miles


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## Miles (Apr 24, 2005)

Andy Cap said:
			
		

> Government has no place in martial arts.


 I agree with the sentiment but the earlier posts were a concern about the future.  The government regulates the air we breathe, water we drink, food we eat and the homes we live in.  Government regulation permeates pretty much every aspect of our daily lives for better or worse.  So it is not too far-fetched to think that it could affect who can hold themself out as a martial arts instructor or not.



			
				Andy Cap said:
			
		

> This is the way I look at it...I am not concerned about Tang Soo Do or Tae Kwon Do or any other Do growing into some huge business.


   I know I will never quit my day job to be a fulltime martial arts instructor.




			
				Andy Cap said:
			
		

> I am not concerned about what the general populace thinks of my rank or my certificate. I care not what any of you think. What matters is my students and what they think and what they get from my instruction. I live martial arts through my students and my school. The rest is external and insignificant.


 I also agree with this sentiment.  However, I also care deeply about Taekwondo.  I do not care what people think of me, but I took an oath to teach others about Kukki-Taekwondo and that is what I try to do both in and out of the dojang.



			
				Andy Cap said:
			
		

> This sounds harsh, but I do not mean it to be. I simply mean that I practice martial arts out of love,a dn i teach martial arts for the very same reason.


 Andy, this does not sound harsh.  I think it is great that you (as I and hopefully all the others on MT) practice (and teach if applicable) their chosen art out of love.




			
				Andy Cap said:
			
		

> I do care because my certificate was from a man I completely respect and it has another man's name on it that I owe so much to. It has my instructor's signature, adn it has Hwang Kee's signature. This is important to me for sentimental reasons, and has no bearing on teh value in any other sense as far as I am concerned.


 Very cool!



			
				Andy Cap said:
			
		

> So, if you are concerned about the organization because you worry about who is going to honor that certificate, well you have greater problems. You have already decided that you are leaving that organization at some point, and need your rank to stand up. Good luck.


 Not sure to whom or where this was directed?

 Miles


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## DuneViking (Apr 29, 2005)

_Certification is not such a big deal in my eyes, as long as you can show that you deserve the rank you hold._
_*Han-Mi*_

Great Bottom Line!!!

_I generally relied on two methods to increase enrollment:_
_1. Letting the work speak for itself (thank you Johnny Carson)_
_2. Word of mouth. People will not recommend bad schools to their friends and family._
_*MiTKD*_

Good Points. 


_Government has no place in martial arts. _
_This is the way I look at it...I am not concerned about Tang Soo Do or Tae Kwon Do or any other Do growing into some huge business. I am not concerned about what the general populace thinks of my rank or my certificate. I care not what any of you think. What matters is my students and what they think and what they get from my instruction. I live martial arts through my students and my school. The rest is external and insignificant._
_*Andy Cap*_

Our Grandmaster uses a quote from Mas Oyama which I think is appropriate along the lines of the thoughts expressed above. It goes something like this " Perfection of Character. All true schools of Karate have this in common . . . nothing else is significant"

Many of our BBs do not teach as a business, we teach for the love of teaching and sharing martial arts. We have "day jobs" to support ourselves. We collect fees to pay the rent and make little if any profit, which goes back into the business for mats or protective gear to share or to help those students who can't pay. The certificates we issue have meaning to us, that our grandmaster approves of us advancing in rank. We also have a tradition of having others who have helped train the student to also provide a concurring signature. One of my most meaningful certificates has the signature of one of our instructors who has passed away, and it is a gup certificate. 

As for Government in MA, I hope it never happens!


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## Han-Mi (Apr 30, 2005)

Miles said:
			
		

> Han-Mi, if I read the above quote properly, your instructor is Kukkiwon-certified but does not apply for Kukkiwon rank certificates for his/her students?
> 
> 
> Miles


My instructor is a fifth dan without kukkiwon certification, though he did test for his 4th dan at the kukkiwon. His instructor is a 6th dan, but I do not know how far up he tested with kukkiwon certification before he stopped. His instructor is Grand Master Ahn Chong Ho, 9th dan. The reason we choose not to obtain certification through the kukkiwon is because It is simply too expensive and can be political.  Small town, small budgets.

Figured I would clarify


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## Miles (Apr 30, 2005)

Han-Mi said:
			
		

> My instructor is a fifth dan without kukkiwon certification, though he did test for his 4th dan at the kukkiwon. His instructor is a 6th dan, but I do not know how far up he tested with kukkiwon certification before he stopped. His instructor is Grand Master Ahn Chong Ho, 9th dan. The reason we choose not to obtain certification through the kukkiwon is because It is simply too expensive and can be political. Small town, small budgets.
> 
> Figured I would clarify


 Thanks for the clarification!  If he is a 4th dan Kukkiwon, he can certify student through Kukkiwon directly.  The costs for this are not too expensive (again this is inn my opinion).  Here is the breakdown off the top of my head: $70 for 1st; $90 for 2nd, $120 for 3rd, $150 for 4th.  It can get expensive when there are other costs involved such as renting a hall, paying for dinners, etc.  Some organizations make you get a certificate from them before you can apply for the Kukkiwon certificate.  But the costs to the Kukkiwon have not changed in a very long time.

 Good luck with your training!

 Miles


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## Miles (Apr 30, 2005)

DuneViking said:
			
		

> Our Grandmaster uses a quote from Mas Oyama which I think is appropriate along the lines of the thoughts expressed above. It goes something like this " Perfection of Character. All true schools of Karate have this in common . . . nothing else is significant"


 This is a paraphrase of the Shotokan creed, one line of which says as students, "We will strive for the perfection of character."  GM Oyama was for a time a student of Gichin Funakoshi.



			
				DuneViking said:
			
		

> Many of our BBs do not teach as a business, we teach for the love of teaching and sharing martial arts. We have "day jobs" to support ourselves. We collect fees to pay the rent and make little if any profit, which goes back into the business for mats or protective gear to share or to help those students who can't pay.


 This is essentially what I have done.  I have a day job which fulfills my intellectual and financial needs.  Teaching and training in TKD fulfills other needs.  



			
				DuneViking said:
			
		

> As for Government in MA, I hope it never happens!


 Ditto!

 Miles


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## Andy Cap (Apr 30, 2005)

Obviously Governmnet is already involved in MA - TKD predominently.  However, the difference is that TKD is an integral part of Korean culture.  Every man enters the military and every man leanrs TKD.  If the US gov't got involved, they would just be looking for a way to tax it more and generate more revenue for the state.  Because US gov't does not share the martial artist's love of their art.


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## Pale Rider (Jun 8, 2005)

For myself, I don't really care if I receive a certificate from some "Grand" system.  Most of the times the "Large" systems don't actually get to see you during the test.  I would rather have my rank through a local instructor.


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## IcemanSK (Nov 8, 2005)

Miles said:
			
		

> Thanks for the clarification! If he is a 4th dan Kukkiwon, he can certify student through Kukkiwon directly. The costs for this are not too expensive (again this is inn my opinion). Here is the breakdown off the top of my head: $70 for 1st; $90 for 2nd, $120 for 3rd, $150 for 4th. It can get expensive when there are other costs involved such as renting a hall, paying for dinners, etc. Some organizations make you get a certificate from them before you can apply for the Kukkiwon certificate. But the costs to the Kukkiwon have not changed in a very long time.
> 
> Good luck with your training!
> 
> Miles


 
I'm learning about an organization that has you get their certificate before they recommend you to Kukiwon. I didn't have that experience before. Is this practice normal? I could see where it might be a good idea if the person testing wasn't your student all the way through & came to your school. I understand it, but it seems to me a bit like dangling a carrot in from of a mule. But, then again, I'm not known for my patience.


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## Miles (Nov 11, 2005)

IcemanSK said:
			
		

> I'm learning about an organization that has you get their certificate before they recommend you to Kukiwon. I didn't have that experience before. Is this practice normal? I could see where it might be a good idea if the person testing wasn't your student all the way through & came to your school. I understand it, but it seems to me a bit like dangling a carrot in from of a mule. But, then again, I'm not known for my patience.



Welcome to MT IcemanSK.

Is it "normal?"  Well, I don't do it but that's my choice.  I think part of the reason this is done is economic.  Both from the perspective of the student and the instructor.  Some students only want a certificate, no matter whose signature is displayed.  That is one reason folks buy into these fly-by-night organizations.  Some instructors have this other certificate as a (financial) prerequisite to getting a Kukkiwon.

Miles


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## IcemanSK (Nov 11, 2005)

Miles said:
			
		

> Welcome to MT IcemanSK.
> 
> Is it "normal?" Well, I don't do it but that's my choice. I think part of the reason this is done is economic. Both from the perspective of the student and the instructor. Some students only want a certificate, no matter whose signature is displayed. That is one reason folks buy into these fly-by-night organizations. Some instructors have this other certificate as a (financial) prerequisite to getting a Kukkiwon.
> 
> Miles


 
Miles:

Thanks for the welcome to MT on the other thread. I certainly see a financial motive for some folks in having to get another certificate. I read on the Kukiwon site that a person needs to be recommended by the "national organization" & that no master (except a  9th Dan) could recommend a student for Dan rank on their own. How do you (Miles) get your students Kukiwon rank?

My situation (in part) is that I'm not affiliated w/ a "national body" but I want to test (at some point). I contacted an organization & (judging by some of their BB's) they test thru them 1st. Since they don't know me, I could see where they might want me to test thru them 1st. (As opposed to a student they've had from day one. I realize there is potential to have advantage taken. That's why I'm wondering what is normally done. And I am curious because you say you don't do it. I'm a 2nd Dan wanting to test for 3rd (someday). What do you (as my instructor) have to do to get my Kukiwon certificate?

Thanks


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## Miles (Nov 12, 2005)

IcemanSK said:
			
		

> Miles:
> 
> I read on the Kukiwon site that a person needs to be recommended by the "national organization" & that no master (except a 9th Dan) could recommend a student for Dan rank on their own. How do you (Miles) get your students Kukiwon rank?


 


			
				IcemanSK said:
			
		

> That's why I'm wondering what is normally done. And I am curious because you say you don't do it. I'm a 2nd Dan wanting to test for 3rd (someday). What do you (as my instructor) have to do to get my Kukiwon certificate?



IcemanSK,

At the Kukkiwon, I met foks from many different countries and there are differences in how dan certification is processed.  In the USA, an 4th dan KKW instructor can apply for her students' applications either directly to the Kukkiwon or through the USA Taekwondo.  In the past, I have done it both ways.  I met an instructor from the Phillipines and they need to go through their national organization.

As an aside, the Kukkiwon for years had a program where it would recognize dan certifications from major organizations such as the ITF.  Now, that program has ended so anyone seeking certification starts from 1st dan.  I have a student who joined our dojang who has a 3rd dan from a private dojang.  I can only apply for his 1st dan Kukkiwon.

Take care,

Miles


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