# curious



## Twin Fist

so, if i make up a story, which i KNOW isnt true, and claim it is factual, doesnt that make me a liar?

if i take something, call it something else and claim i invented it, doesnt that make me a thief?


yeah i thought so too.


----------



## seasoned

This is the obvious TF, is there more?


----------



## Twin Fist

well, i just wanted to make sure that I had my definitions correct.

Since, I have said, and I truly believe that TKD's "official" origin is a matter of theft and lies.

Koreans took Shotokan, claimed it was something else, and gave it a new name

thats theft

and in calling it something else, and then making up some myth about 3000 year old dynasties and some other crappola, 

thats lying

hapkido? thats nothing but stolen/renamed aikido with some kicks added in

whats the korean judo? and the korean version of kendo?

korean martial arts are in large part, the result of theft and lies.

now this isnt unique to korea

and it is, in this day and age, 50 years after the thefts more or less irrelevant, partiuarly when the arts have grown into thier own unique entities

but it is an accurate statement, IMO


----------



## SPX

I've seen you make several posts on this.

I'm guessing it's something that is very important to you?


----------



## Twin Fist

it is, and it isnt.

it is because IMO all martial artists should strive to discard all that is false.

it isnt cuz in the big picture, as long as i know the truth, thats ok with me.

then again, i hate it when someone pees on my leg and tries to tell me it's raining......


----------



## Twin Fist

so that was prob no help at all...lol

sorry, i cant help but try to see all sides of an isssue


----------



## SPX

Twin Fist said:


> it is, and it isnt.
> 
> it is because IMO all martial artists should strive to discard all that is false.
> 
> it isnt cuz in the big picture, as long as i know the truth, thats ok with me.
> 
> then again, i hate it when someone pees on my leg and tries to tell me it's raining......



The thing about fake histories is that it's something that's part of most martial arts to one extent or another.  I think a degree of deception and BS just comes with the territory.  If you're going to be involved with the field of MAs, it's just one of those things.

It seems to me that most people who do TKD know what's really up as far as the history goes.  But then again the Korean guy who runs the corner store up the street was telling me the other day that TKD is 3000 years old, so maybe it's just people on message boards. . .


----------



## Tez3

It's 20 centuries old.... says so here.
http://www.tagb.biz/TKDHistory.html

or it has it's roots in Korean martial arts over 2000 years
http://www.britishtaekwondo.org.uk/what-is-taekwondo.html


Methinks that many that train TKD are still telling us it's 2000 years old.


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> Koreans took Shotokan, claimed it was something else, and gave it a new name



Taekwondo is different from Shotokan. By the way, the pioneers studied more arts than Shotokan. 




Twin Fist said:


> hapkido? thats nothing but stolen/renamed aikido with some kicks added in



Hapkido has nothing to do with Aikido. In fact, they call Aikido in Korea, Aikido. I have a korean book on Aikido, the title of which is, "Aikido". 




Twin Fist said:


> whats the korean judo? and the korean version of kendo?



Yudo is the korean pronounciation of the chinese characters for Judo. Kumdo is the korean pronounciation for the chinese characters for Kendo.


----------



## puunui

Tez3 said:


> Methinks that many that train TKD are still telling us it's 2000 years old.



What those types of histories are saying is that taekwondo's cultural roots which emphasize kicking is over 2000 years old. That Korean culture emphasizes fighting with feet vs. hands is indisputable at this point. If you or others do not believe that taekwondo or other korean martial arts are not 2000 years old, then how do you account for the emphasis on kicking in the korean martial arts?


----------



## Tez3

puunui said:


> What those types of histories are saying is that taekwondo's cultural roots which emphasize kicking is over 2000 years old. That Korean culture emphasizes fighting with feet vs. hands is indisputable at this point. If you or others do not believe that taekwondo or other korean martial arts are not 2000 years old, then how do you account for the emphasis on kicking in the korean martial arts?




The second link said the roots went back 2000 years, the first said that TKD *was* 20 centuries old. 

Why does the emphasis on kicking mean it's Korean? does no one else kick?


----------



## jks9199

This isn't really something restricted to TKD.  After all, Shotokan karate is really Okinawan Te, as packaged for a Japanese market by Funakoshi.  And Okinawan Te may be a repackaging of any of several Chinese styles.  Which are probably repackagings of other styles, etc. on back.  While elements of the modern Bando system I practice can be traced back over 2000 years, the modern system was also clearly assembled in 1930s and 1940s.

So... how do you define "theft?"  TKD certainly has similarities with karate -- but they aren't identical.  It's kind of like the question of plagiarism versus inspiration; the line is very subjective.  And is repeating the story you were told or taught a lie?  Especially if you sincerely believe it?


----------



## Tez3

Legal definition of theft under our law _'dishonestly appropriating property belonging to another with the intent to permanently deprive'_. You have to prove all those points to prove theft, in this case the 'dishonestly appropriating' would be difficult, as it may have been believed that it was given to them or the 'owner' of said martial art would give his permission if asked for it to be used.


----------



## Cyriacus

The extent of My Taught Knowledge of TKD History: This System was founded in 1965.

I shut a whole ton of stuff out of My head from the ITF  I choose to not be concerned by it.


----------



## Twin Fist

which is exactly my point


thats a LIE

and we are LIARS if we repete it



Tez3 said:


> It's 20 centuries old.... says so here.
> http://www.tagb.biz/TKDHistory.html
> 
> or it has it's roots in Korean martial arts over 2000 years
> http://www.britishtaekwondo.org.uk/what-is-taekwondo.html
> 
> 
> Methinks that many that train TKD are still telling us it's 2000 years old.


----------



## StudentCarl

For how many people is this 'history' a factor in the choice of what/where to study? It wasn't even on the bottom of my list.

I chose an art and master that suited my interests, and continue to study to learn better technique and mechanics. History was not and is not a factor.


----------



## Twin Fist

puunui said:


> Taekwondo is different from Shotokan. By the way, the pioneers studied more arts than Shotokan.



not in 1958 when it came to america it wasnt. it was SHOTOKAN with barely rearranged kata

won yo = pinan shodan

all teh fan boy denial and lies in the world will not change that simple fact

the ORIGINAL TKD was nothing but shotokan.

it is totally it's own animal NOW, but at first?

SHOTOKAN

why do people continue to tell the LIES?

hell, Jhoon Rhee, the FIRST to teach in the US said it wasnt even CALLED tkd till after 1960, before that it was tang soo do, or just karate.

but i guess some people here know more than jhoon rhee........../roll


----------



## Twin Fist

Cyriacus said:


> The extent of My Taught Knowledge of TKD History: This System was founded in 1965.
> 
> I shut a whole ton of stuff out of My head from the ITF  I choose to not be concerned by it.



nice. As i am directly descended from jhoon rhee, i trace mine back to 1958


----------



## Twin Fist

jks9199 said:


> So... how do you define "theft?"  TKD certainly has similarities with karate -- but they aren't identical.  It's kind of like the question of plagiarism versus inspiration; the line is very subjective.  And is repeating the story you were told or taught a lie?  Especially if you sincerely believe it?



what teh KKW does, which is to continue to publish the "2000 year history" BS is a lie, plain and simple, and every teacher that repetes it is repeting a LIE

if i take an intel chip, and copy it, call it a twinfist chip, have I comitted theft?

yeah i thought so too


----------



## SPX

jks9199 said:


> It's kind of like the question of plagiarism versus inspiration; the line is very subjective.  And is repeating the story you were told or taught a lie?  Especially if you sincerely believe it?



I think the issue at hand may have to do with not citing your sources, so to speak. . .


----------



## SPX

Twin Fist said:


> twinfist chip



I literally LOLd.


----------



## MAist25

How can you call what Koreans did "theft" when Japan was the whole reason why Koreans learned Japanese martial arts in the first place? Maybe if Japan didnt go on a rampage, invade Korea, outlaw the practice of native Korean arts, destroy Korean culture, and impose their own culture upon them they would never have had a reason to "steal" said martial arts. Even so, Koreans did not take the martial arts and say it was their style. They took what they learned and modified it, added some things, and took some things out. They put their own Korean flavor to the martial arts they learned, based on their own cultural martial traditions. The roots of Taekwondo are very old, even though the style itself may not be.


----------



## msmitht

Wow. I always find the history of korean ma interesting. It varies depending on who you hear it from. My late gm, baek moon ku, was a direct student of hwang kee and, at the first military compound to teach tkd, choi hong hi. He said that early tkd and tsd were basically shotokan with more kicks and more power. Later the wtf changed tkd by impilmenting sport rules and safety gear to allow for full contact. tkd changed in korea and then the rest of the world. Current kukkiwon/wtf tkd is completely different than shotokan karate, which is a fine art, with the exception of certain poomsae elements.
Did someone falsify the true history of tkd? Yes. What was brought here in the 60's and 70's was mostly old school tkd/shotokan/tsd based. It does not represent what is being taught at reputable wtf/kukkiwon tkd schools all over the globe.


----------



## elder999

Twin Fist said:


> which is exactly my pointthats a LIEand we are LIARS if we repete it


A funny story, actually: I trained in Duk Sung Son's Chung Do Kwan *and* kyokushin karate at the same time.I stared in Duk Sung Son's "Korean Karate" when I was 11. When I was 13 I went to boarding school, where no form of tae kwon do was availabl, but there was kyokushin instruction. When I started that, I found, much to my surprise, that the Pyung Ahns of Tae Kwon Do and the Pinans of kyokushin (which were from Oyama Sosai's study of Shotokan directly under Funakoshi) were almost identical. I'd go home for vacations and practice with my tae kwon do class, and go back to school and practice kyokushin-with both of my teachers being completely aware of it. Eventually I wound up choosing one art, but-at the time-neither teacher could definitively say why they had such similar kata. Of course, later it became clear that it was what you've obviously overstated here, and MAist25 has added historical perspective to .For me, the Kyokushin instruction was better quality, and had bunkai that made more sense of the kata-though both of them had diverged a bit from the original Shotokan kata(for best results, start the lower, Korean version first, then immediately start the Japanese version):





 






MAist25 said:


> How can you call what Koreans did "theft" when Japan was the whole reason why Koreans learned Japanese martial arts in the first place? Maybe if Japan didnt go on a rampage, invade Korea, outlaw the practice of native Korean arts, destroy Korean culture, and impose their own culture upon them they would never have had a reason to "steal" said martial arts. Even so, Koreans did not take the martial arts and say it was their style. They took what they learned and modified it, added some things, and took some things out. They put their own Korean flavor to the martial arts they learned, based on their own cultural martial traditions. The roots of Taekwondo are very old, even though the style itself may not be.


----------



## Cyriacus

One thing though - Isnt Karate 'stolen' from the Chinese?
(Dont take Me too literally now. Im adding to the debate, not trying to argue a point.)


----------



## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist said:


> well, i just wanted to make sure that I had my definitions correct.
> 
> Since, I have said, and I truly believe that TKD's "official" origin is a matter of theft and lies.
> 
> 
> but it is an accurate statement, IMO



Well, I for one do not find your statements inaccurate, in so far as they refer to General Choi. 

First and foremost he explicitly states that it is similar to dscovering fire or inventing the wheel. No single person or country can take credit for it. Secondly, he expressly references Shorin and Shorei systems and even refers to them as TKD, and thirdly, his 1965 book even contains the earlier patterns. 

If you consider this theft and lies, then why wouldn't Shotokan Fall into the Same category? Why wouldn't Judo? Certainly the Shorin System would as well, would it not? How about Aikido?


----------



## Earl Weiss

Tez3 said:


> It's 20 centuries old.... says so here.
> http://www.tagb.biz/TKDHistory.html
> 
> or it has it's roots in Korean martial arts over 2000 years
> http://www.britishtaekwondo.org.uk/what-is-taekwondo.html
> 
> 
> .



Well, yes & No. The first kline of the first article says that but goes on to elaborate saying it was a "pre cursor." 
The second refers to the roots. 

I think a bigger issue is the age of the Korean roots. I think most were lost before TKD was formed. Maybe not, but the links seem tenuous.


----------



## miguksaram

If a few white people claim that the Holocaust never happened and printed it up on their website and put it down in their books and their flyers, had other white people as well as other racists claiming the same thing then it should be OK for me to say when it comes to exploitation and extermination of other cultures, white people are liars.  After all we have the proof of those sites existing. 

Based on your logic TF, that is OK since you felt it was OK to call all Koreans liars when it comes to martial arts.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Cyriacus said:


> The extent of My Taught Knowledge of TKD History: This System was founded in 1965.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I think you should get your n\money back from whoever taught you this. The first english edition was published in 1965 and there was a Korean edition before this. The system was founded before the books were published.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist said:


> but i guess some people here know more than jhoon rhee........../roll



Well, based upon your OP I would put you in this category or at  least think that when it comes to some of what he said would at the very least disagree with him or maybe even call him a lyer or thief. 

Chung - Gun and Toi-Gye of Tae Kwon Do Hyung - Jhoon Rhee
1971


 Page 10

"TKD is a Korean Martial Art which has been developed through the centuries...."

Page 11

"TKD Hyungs have ben developed and perfected throughout the centuries by outstanding teachers of the art."


Chung - Gun and Toi-Gye of Tae Kwon Do Hyung - Jhoon Rhee
1971


----------



## Cyriacus

Earl Weiss said:


> Cyriacus said:
> 
> 
> 
> The extent of My Taught Knowledge of TKD History: This System was founded in 1965.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I think you should get your n\money back from whoever taught you this. The first english edition was published in 1965 and there was a Korean edition before this. The system was founded before the books were published.
> 
> 
> 
> I didnt say thats when TKD was founded - I said, that thats when THIS System of it was Founded, or Organisation rather. I perhaps ought to have been more specific.
Click to expand...


----------



## Twin Fist

dont get your feelings in a twist just becasue someone is telling the truth about your arts.....history

the koreans took shotokan, called it something else and marketed it as thier own

thats theft since they didnt credit the original source

the KKW made up a 2000 year history lie, and printed it and they repete it to this day.

thats a lie

korean martial arts are based on theft and lies

it isnt my fault

dont blame the messenger


miguksaram said:


> If a few white people claim that the Holocaust never happened and printed it up on their website and put it down in their books and their flyers, had other white people as well as other racists claiming the same thing then it should be OK for me to say when it comes to exploitation and extermination of other cultures, white people are liars.  After all we have the proof of those sites existing.
> 
> Based on your logic TF, that is OK since you felt it was OK to call all Koreans liars when it comes to martial arts.


----------



## Twin Fist

thus ends the lesson





elder999 said:


> A funny story, actually: I trained in Duk Sung Son's Chung Do Kwan *and* kyokushin karate at the same time.I stared in Duk Sung Son's "Korean Karate" when I was 11. When I was 13 I went to boarding school, where no form of tae kwon do was availabl, but there was kyokushin instruction. When I started that, I found, much to my surprise, that the Pyung Ahns of Tae Kwon Do and the Pinans of kyokushin (which were from Oyama Sosai's study of Shotokan directly under Funakoshi) were almost identical. I'd go home for vacations and practice with my tae kwon do class, and go back to school and practice kyokushin-with both of my teachers being completely aware of it. Eventually I wound up choosing one art, but-at the time-neither teacher could definitively say why they had such similar kata. Of course, later it became clear that it was what you've obviously overstated here, and MAist25 has added historical perspective to .For me, the Kyokushin instruction was better quality, and had bunkai that made more sense of the kata-though both of them had diverged a bit from the original Shotokan kata(for best results, start the lower, Korean version first, then immediately start the Japanese version):


----------



## Twin Fist

Earl Weiss said:


> , then why wouldn't Shotokan Fall into the Same category? Why wouldn't Judo? Certainly the Shorin System would as well, would it not? How about Aikido?



shotokan perhaps, since i dont know enough about the shuri=te it evolved from to know if it as different enough to be considered it's own entity

judo is a drasticly altered JJ, so no, not theft, IMO
Same with akido, IMO


----------



## elder999

Earl Weiss;[URL="tel:1454002" said:
			
		

> 1454002[/URL]]Well, I for one do not find your statements inaccurate, in so far as they refer to General Choi.
> 
> First and foremost he explicitly states that it is similar to dscovering fire or inventing the wheel. No single person or country can take credit for it. Secondly, he expressly references Shorin and Shorei systems and even refers to them as TKD, and thirdly, his 1965 book even contains the earlier patterns.
> 
> If you consider this theft and lies, then why wouldn't Shotokan Fall into the Same category? Why wouldn't Judo? Certainly the Shorin System would as well, would it not? How about Aikido?



Or, for that matter, Kyokushinkaikan-since my sense of irony seems to wane after 2 a.m........seriously, though? I think there's a difference between openly borrowing and _giving credit_, and offering fairly blatant untruths as "real history," which some TKD instructors have been guilty of. Nationalism probably had a lot to do with it.


----------



## Twin Fist

yes, these are lies Earl



Earl Weiss said:


> Well, based upon your OP I would put you in this category or at  least think that when it comes to some of what he said would at the very least disagree with him or maybe even call him a lyer or thief.
> 
> Chung - Gun and Toi-Gye of Tae Kwon Do Hyung - Jhoon Rhee
> 1971
> 
> 
> Page 10
> 
> "TKD is a Korean Martial Art which has been developed through the centuries...."
> 
> Page 11
> 
> "TKD Hyungs have ben developed and perfected throughout the centuries by outstanding teachers of the art."
> 
> 
> Chung - Gun and Toi-Gye of Tae Kwon Do Hyung - Jhoon Rhee
> 1971


----------



## SahBumNimRush

While I don't wholly disagree with your statements, as I understand it, Shotokan cannot take all of the credit for the 1940's-1960's TSD (precurser to TKD).  A few of the pioneers had expertise and rank in Shudokan.  Some had training in CMA's as well.  Which is why the original kwans practiced forms not found in Shotokan, although many Shotokan forms were practiced.  

Early TSD/TKD practitioners were called "head hunters."  Why? no other MA emphasized kicking to the head, at least not to the extent of TSD/TKD.  Now JMA's have adopted what TSD/TKD used with such success (at least in sparring).  The head kicks are why so many of the traditional bunkai from the JMA's don't work in the same way TSD/TKD practitioners execute them.  Also, the mechanics of the kicks are different.  Why?  Where did the altered mechanics come from?  I can't say with certainty, but I would believe that the long standing tradition of kicking in KMA's probably had something to do with it.  

To clarifiy, I do not support or propogate the idea that *TKD* is an ancient art.  However, I also wouldn't say that it is, or ever was, merely repackaged Shotokan.


----------



## elder999

SahBumNimRush;[URL="tel:1454035" said:
			
		

> 1454035[/URL]]While I don't wholly disagree with your statements, as I understand it, Shotokan cannot take all of the credit for the 1940's-1960's TSD (precurser to TKD).  A few of the pioneers had expertise and rank in Shudokan.  Some had training in CMA's as well.  Which is why the original kwans practiced forms not found in Shotokan, although many Shotokan forms were practiced.
> 
> Early TSD/TKD practitioners were called "head hunters."  Why? no other MA emphasized kicking to the head, at least not to the extent of TSD/TKD.  Now JMA's have adopted what TSD/TKD used with such success (at least in sparring).  The head kicks are why so many of the traditional bunkai from the JMA's don't work in the same way TSD/TKD practitioners execute them.  Also, the mechanics of the kicks are different.  Why?  Where did the altered mechanics come from?  I can't say with certainty, but I would believe that the long standing tradition of kicking in KMA's probably had something to do with it.
> 
> To clarifiy, I do not support or propogate the idea that *TKD* is an ancient art.  However, I also wouldn't say that it is, or ever was, merely repackaged Shotokan.



Sort of.....shudokan's founder, Toyama, and the man who taught those four Korean masters-was a student of Itosu, of Shorin ryu.

Itosu invented the Shorin kata of Shotokan: the Pinans-thus, the Pinans are common to Shotokan and Shudokan, which might be why they became part of the original sets of TSD/TKD/MDK/CDK/SSK? patterns: everybody involved had them in common.....

...carry on. :lol:


----------



## Manny

Back in mid 80's when I got inside TKD many people didin't get it or know it, so that's why my former sambonim told us it was Korean Karate, even he advertised that way. As I progresed on the kup ladder my former sambonim (a Jido Kwan member) told us TKD was 2000 years roots and that ancient TKD was TSD and SBD. back in those days we hadn't PC or internet and we had very few books, the only one avaibable in those years was the one written by Richard Chun.

Right now with all the internet we have realiced that TKD was created in the mid 50's and was a colaboration of Gen Choi with some GM Kwan memebers by a request of Korea's President, that Gen Choi was student of Funakoshi or so and earned black belt in karate do (shotokan?).

In the beginings TKD and Shotokan were alike, but trying to erase any trace of japanese the KTA ann Then WTF began to change and modify the art to evolve it in a kicking martial art.

So TKD was karate Do.... well in the begining yes (Clasic TKD) but then evolved in what is today, however, we must realice we some similitudes with karate do.

Manny


----------



## SahBumNimRush

elder999 said:


> Sort of.....shudokan's founder, Toyama, and the man who taught those four Korean masters-was a student of Itosu, of Shorin ryu.
> 
> Itosu invented the Shorin kata of Shotokan: the Pinans-thus, the Pinans are common to Shotokan and Shudokan, which might be why they became part of the original sets of TSD/TKD/MDK/CDK/SSK? patterns: everybody involved had them in common.....
> 
> ...carry on. :lol:




I agree with the Pyung Ahns/Pinans/Heians being from Itosu, thus both Shudokan and Shotokan.   However, I was referring to the yudanja level form sets that are not found in Shotokan, such as Rohai (Shudokan), Seisan, and Jang Kwon (Chinese).  Granted most of the traditional form sets were found in shotokan; Pyung Ahn (Pinan/Heian), Bassai, Chinto (Gankaku), Naihanchi (Tekki), Kang Song Kun (Kanku/Kusanku), Ship Soo (Jitte), Jion, Wanshu (Empi).


----------



## SahBumNimRush

According to "Modern History of TKD" even during the first unified promotion examination under the name TKD in 1962, the forms were diverse.

The hyung portion of the examination consisted of the examinees performing two of the following forms of their choice:
*Second Dan Hyung:*


Balhan Hyung Dae
Chul Ki E Dan Hyung (Naihanchi E Dan)
Naebojin E Dan Hyung (Naihanchi E Dan)
Kima E Dan Hyung (Naihanchi #2)
Choong Moo Hyung (General Choi form)
 
* Third Dan Hyung:*


Ship Su Hyung
Pal Sae Hyung (Bassai)
Yon Bi Hyung (Wanshu)
Dan Kwon Hyung (Chuan Fa form)
No Pae Hyung (Ro Hai)
Ge Baek Hyung (General Choi form)
Ul Ji Hyung
 
*Fourth Dan Hyung: *


Chul Ki Sam Dan Hyung (Naihanchi #3)
Naebojin Sam Dan Hyung (Naihanchi #3)
Kima Sam Dan Hyung (Naihanchi #3)
Ja Un Hyung; Jin Soo Hyung
Am Hak Hyung (Chinto)
Jin Dong Hyung
Sam Il Hyung (ITF form)
Jang Kwon Hyung (Chuan Fa form)
 
*Fifth Dan Hyung:*


Kong Sang Kun Hyung
Kwan Kong Hyung (Kong Sang Kun)
Oh Ship Sa Hyung (Moo Duk Kwan form)
Ship Sam Hyung (ITF form)
Ban Wol Hyung
Pal Ki Kwon Hyung (Chuan Fa form)


----------



## Earl Weiss

msmitht said:


> . What was brought here in the 60's and 70's was mostly old school tkd/shotokan/tsd based. It does not represent what is being taught at reputable wtf/kukkiwon tkd schools all over the globe.



Would have been difficult for stuff taught in the 1960's and for most of the 1070's to resemble what is being taught at the KKW since the KKW was not formed until 1972, unless of course it went the other way being that what the KKW did / does resembles what was taught in the 1960's and 1970's.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Earl Weiss said:


> Well, I for one do not find your statements inaccurate, in so far as they refer to General Choi.



OOPS should have said do not find the statements acurate


----------



## Earl Weiss

Cyriacus said:


> Earl Weiss said:
> 
> 
> 
> I didnt say thats when TKD was founded - I said, that thats when THIS System of it was Founded, or Organisation rather. I perhaps ought to have been more specific.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Color me Dense. To which System or organization do you refer?
Click to expand...


----------



## Twin Fist

choi was, arguably one of the biggest thieves. he was a shotokan BB wasnt he?


----------



## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist said:


> judo is a drasticly altered JJ, so no, not theft, IMO
> Same with akido, IMO



Therein lies the crux of the issue. It is a matter of opinion with regard to when something is drasticaly altered enough to be considered a new system.  AFAIAC Kodokan Judo as codified by Kano contains Ju Jitsu techniques which were limited in scope and number in order to facilitate competition.  It is this codification, uniformity and in some instances perhaps refinement which sets it apart.     Don't see any real difference between what Kano and Funakoshi did with regard to what General Choi did.  They were all forthright about the roots of their art.


----------



## Cyriacus

Earl Weiss said:


> Cyriacus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Color me Dense. To which System or organization do you refer?
> 
> 
> 
> Rhee TKD in Australia.
> And that isnt Jhoon Rhee - Google, My Friend  Just be mindful of some of the damn weird website layouts some people have going. I prefer to ignore them. But since Wikipedia isnt up, weird websites will have to do. If its any consolation, theyre outsourced, because we generally dont advertise, save word of mouth and fliers.
Click to expand...


----------



## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist said:


> choi was, arguably one of the biggest thieves. he was a shotokan BB wasnt he?



If he was a Shotokan BB as is often reported and sometimes disputed. How does this make him any more of a Thief than Kano or Funakoshi. He explicitly disclaims inventing techniques, gives credit to former systems and even includes them in his books.  How much more honest about the roots could he be?


----------



## SahBumNimRush

Twin Fist said:


> choi was, arguably one of the biggest thieves. he was a shotokan BB wasn't he?



I have little knowledge and no experience with ITF/ General Choi, and there are many more knowledgeable people here on MT that would be better able to answer this.. . But even if he were a bb in Shotokan, the mechanics and movements in Gae-Baek, for example look nothing like Shotokan, or at least as different as Shuri te compared with Shotokan.. .






As a side note, I've never been a fan of the Sine wave movements that General Choi advocated.. .


----------



## Twin Fist

show me where he said "we took shotokan, modified it, and created a new art from it. But at first, thats all it was, shotokan and the kata? mostly shotokan kata i rearranged"

that would be honest.


----------



## Twin Fist

that sine wave crap diodnt exist untill.....what? the last 20 years, maybe 30? it came AFTER the korean government threw choi away with the leftovers and went with the KKW version

so that isnt a good example of how they "created something new".


----------



## SahBumNimRush

Twin Fist said:


> that sine wave crap diodnt exist untill.....what? the last 20 years, maybe 30? it came AFTER the korean government threw choi away with the leftovers and went with the KKW version
> 
> so that isnt a good example of how they "created something new".




Like I stated before, I'm not very knowledgeable about Choi's ITF, but the sine wave still isn't the only example.  The movements, albeit rearranged are still different.  Altogether NEW?  No, certainly not, but I would say it is as different as the various ryus of karate.


----------



## Twin Fist

it is amazing to me how many people get butthurt over differeing opinions about martial arts. we are supposedly tough guys and gals, and the amount of preperation H flying around here is either sad or funny, i am not sure which


----------



## Twin Fist

SahBumNimRush said:


> Like I stated before, I'm not very knowledgeable about Choi's ITF, but the sine wave still isn't the only example.  The movements, albeit rearranged are still different.  Altogether NEW?  No, certainly not, but I would say it is as different as the various ryus of karate.




i dont disagree

it is differnt

NOW

in 1958? nope


----------



## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist said:


> show me where he said "we took shotokan, modified it, and created a new art from it. But at first, thats all it was, shotokan and the kata? mostly shotokan kata i rearranged"
> 
> that would be honest.



I will pull out the 1965 Book when I get a chance and get the quote vis a vis the Shorin and Shorei systems which are the roots of Shotokan.  He also has the patterns which I believe are in part Shotokan. IS that good enough?


----------



## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist said:


> that sine wave crap diodnt exist untill.....what? the last 20 years, maybe 30? it came AFTER the korean government threw choi away with the leftovers and went with the KKW version
> 
> so that isnt a good example of how they "created something new".



How about 40 years? The term "Sine Wave" first appears in the 1980 text, but before then we were doing much the same thing whcih involved flexing the knees. In the 1970's we called it "Spring Style"   FWIW Mr. Suska from Poland shown in the above video is a tremendous athlete. However, as perofrmed by many from what I call Eastern European countries the sine wave motion is overly exagerated.   However, many pattern motions are overly exagerated like pulling the opposite hand all the way to the hip.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist said:


> i dont disagree
> 
> it is differnt
> 
> NOW
> 
> in 1958? nope



I think you (generic you, not specific you) need to think about how things were performed by many and how they should have been performed for a specific system. . To spread TKD General Choi recruited top talent. Specificaly good athletes who could impress people with their physical skills.  Those people had been training in various systems for years or longer before converting to the new system.  As one would expect they carried their habits over from those systems.   For progeny of Nam Tae Hi, Han Cha Kyo, or Jhoon Rhee you can see the Chung Do Kwan habits which were never changed.  In some cases things were purley the invention of a particular instructor that dispursed to their students. 

When I had Nam Tae Hi teacgh at my gym he still used Japanese names forsome techniques.  A polite inquiry about some of the differences between what he and Han Cha Kyo were doing eleicted a respons about "That was in their brain."  or "That was his technique".


----------



## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist said:


> it is amazing to me how many people get butthurt over differeing opinions about martial arts. we are supposedly tough guys and gals, and the amount of preperation H flying around here is either sad or funny, i am not sure which



I think it's been an enlightening discussion on many levels. It shows how even today we debate what is or what is not TKD. Some define it very broadly as a Generic term that can apply to anyone who has a link to a Korean who was kicking and punching.  Others think it's a specific system.  Some might have ideas that fall in between.  If you subscribe to the first. Basicaly any Korean Kicking and Punching art, then heck it would be claimed to be 200o years old since I am sure there were some Koreans kicking and punching back then.  If you consider it to have been born in 1955 or so, then not so much.


----------



## Twin Fist

as long as they quote the source....



Earl Weiss said:


> I will pull out the 1965 Book when I get a chance and get the quote vis a vis the Shorin and Shorei systems which are the roots of Shotokan.  He also has the patterns which I believe are in part Shotokan. IS that good enough?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

SahBumNimRush said:


> ...as I understand it, Shotokan cannot take all of the credit for the 1940's-1960's TSD (precurser to TKD).  A few of the pioneers had expertise and rank in Shudokan.  Some had training in CMA's as well.  Which is why the original kwans practiced forms not found in Shotokan, although many Shotokan forms were practiced.



Master Rush is correct.  Shotokan may, or may not take the lion's share as far as foundational principles but other arts such as Shutokan, Shito Ryu etc were in the mix as well.  A few Koreans had even earned relatively high Dan ranks in them as well.  Since all but two of the modern Ryu in Okinawa trace their lineage back through Anko Itosu Sensei, much of the information would have been similar.  

TKD is not, of course a 2000 year old indigenous Korean martial art.  The bulk of it is Okinawan/Japanese influenced Karate.  Whether or not it was then infused with Taekyon etc is a matter for debate.  Regardless, it has over the years retained a bulk of the foundational influences while at the same time it has become a unique art.  I see no issue with this as martial arts evolve.  Itosu's Shuri Te evolved into Shotokan, Shudokan, Shuri Ryu, Wado Ryu, Shito Ryu etc which in turn evolved (or had a part to play in the formations) into TKD.  Nationalistic pride also had a part to play in TKD becoming its own unique entity, and I see no issue with this either.  TKD should not be portrayed as something that it is not i.e. it is not a 2000 year old indigenous Korean martial art.  If one feels like they can link parts of TKD to older Korean arts then that is fine and it should be stated as such but not used to cover the whole of the art.  And I see nothing wrong with proudly stating the roots of TKD through Japan, Okinawa and China as that is factual and historical.  Yes, I realize the climate of the times during the formation but politics and martial arts should be kept separate.  Karate has a proud and researched lineage, TKD is one of the latest 'children' of that lineage and should be proud of what came before it...went into its development...and what steps it has taken to forge its own identity.  

That is my thoughts on it.


----------



## Twin Fist

and i dont think any honest person would disagree with that.

which is why the KKW is a bunch of liars and thieves, they continue to publish the lie, and untill the admit the truth, they are thieves as well.

IMO


----------



## SahBumNimRush

Twin Fist said:


> it is amazing to me how many people get butthurt over differeing opinions about martial arts. we are supposedly tough guys and gals, and the amount of preperation H flying around here is either sad or funny, i am not sure which



I'd like to note that I have also found this to be a very interesting discussion.  Furthermore, since I have no lineage through the ITF or the KKW, I don't really have a dog in this fight, so to speak.  In case any of my comments lead anyone to believe that I have been stricken with a hemorrhoid over the thread, I would just like to set the record straight that I have not 

I enjoy discussing KMA/TSD/TKD history, although I am no historian.  I do make an honest attempt to understand what my history is, and where it comes from.  As stated previously, I acknowledge my art's Shotokan roots, but I also recognize that there are other roots outside of Shotokan as well.


----------



## Twin Fist

and thats honest of you


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> nice. As i am directly descended from jhoon rhee, i trace mine back to 1958




GM Jhoon Rhee did not call what he taught in 1958 "Taekwondo".


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> choi was, arguably one of the biggest thieves. he was a shotokan BB wasnt he?



No, he wasn't, according to GM LEE Won Kuk.


----------



## puunui

Tez3 said:


> Why does the emphasis on kicking mean it's Korean? does no one else kick?




I'm not saying that only korean martial arts have kicks. But certainly the korean martial arts emphasize kicks and have more kicks than say, japanese or okinawan martial arts. Those who constantly state that taekwondo is "nothing more than shotokan" ignore this fact. If taekwondo is nothing more than shotokan, then you would think shotokan would have the same emphasis on kicks that taekwondo does. We know that is not true. Basically what is happening is those 2000 year histories are attempting to explain that cultural emphasis on kicks, which does make taekwondo and other korean martial arts unique. those in the "taekwondo is shotokan" camp ignore the kicks and only focus on the forms and whatnot in giving their opinion. It is the classic blind men touching the elephant scenario.


----------



## puunui

msmitht said:


> Did someone falsify the true history of tkd? Yes.




Thinking that type of thought will, in my opinion, limit your progress in the korean martial arts.


----------



## puunui

jks9199 said:


> This isn't really something restricted to TKD.  After all, Shotokan karate is really Okinawan Te, as packaged for a Japanese market by Funakoshi.  And Okinawan Te may be a repackaging of any of several Chinese styles.  Which are probably repackagings of other styles, etc. on back.




When Funakoshi Sensei changed the name from toudejutsu (karatejutsu in japanese) to karatedo, he did so because prior to his arrival in Japan, there was already an art called "karate" (empty hand), which was purely japanese in origin and not related to okinawan toudejutsu or okinawan te. This type of karate focused on empty handed self defense techniques. So using twinfist's logic, Funakoshi Sensei "lied" in attempting to turn okinawan toudejutsu into the indigenous japanese based karate. 

Over and beyond that, Funakoshi Sensei also changed the names of the kata as well. Naihanchi into tekki and pinan into heian for example. He also gave everyone permission to do the same thing in his autobiography, where he states frankly that he fully expects the name to change again in the future. 

And we haven't even discussed other students of Funakoshi Sensei who went on to create their own styles, such as Oyama Sensei's Kyokushinkai or Otsuka Sensei's Wado Ryu, two styles which to me are different from Shotokan.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist said:


> show me where he said "we took shotokan, modified it, and created a new art from it. But at first, thats all it was, shotokan and the kata? mostly shotokan kata i rearranged"
> 
> that would be honest.



This is what he said:
TKD 1965 : Choi Hong Hi

Page 14: " TKD is a *version* of an ancient form of unarmed combat practiced for many centuries in the orient. (Emphasis Supplied)

"No doubt this art was adoped in many Eastern countries, notably in Japan and China.."

Page 22: "During the Japanese occupation the hand technique was introduced from both China and Japan"

Page 173:  "Most of these "patterns' have been created and developed by the famous TKD masters isn the course of many centuriesThey are classified into three main groups: The Sorim School, Soryong School, and CH'ang Hon School."  (Note I think: Sorim & Soryong  = Shorin & Shorei.) 
The book also contains Hei- An, Bat Sai, En Bi, Ro Hai,  kouh Shang Kouh, Tek Ki, Jit Te, Han Getsu, and Ji On. 

And this is less honest than Funakoshi's references to Shorin and Shorei, And Kano's reference to Ju Jitsu tyus because?


----------



## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist
[h=2]Re: curious[/h]yes, these are lies Earl








 Originally Posted by *Earl Weiss* 

 
Well, based upon your OP I would put you in this category or at least think that when it comes to some of what he said would at the very least disagree with him or maybe even call him a lyer or thief. 

Chung - Gun and Toi-Gye of Tae Kwon Do Hyung - Jhoon Rhee
1971


Page 10

"TKD is a Korean Martial Art which has been developed through the centuries...."

Page 11

"TKD Hyungs have ben developed and perfected throughout the centuries by outstanding teachers of the art."


Chung - Gun and Toi-Gye of Tae Kwon Do Hyung - Jhoon Rhee
1971


Well, since these are jhoon Rhees statements and you know them to be untrue you would be among some on here who know more than he does, or perhaps views things differently. 


​


----------



## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> To spread TKD General Choi recruited top talent.




General Choi recruited anyone and everyone who would follow him. He talks about his recruitment efforts in his autobiography.


----------



## Twin Fist

no he didnt, he called it korean karate, or tang soo do



puunui said:


> GM Jhoon Rhee did not call what he taught in 1958 "Taekwondo".


----------



## Twin Fist

puunui said:


> I'm not saying that only korean martial arts have kicks. But certainly the korean martial arts emphasize kicks and have more kicks than say, japanese or okinawan martial arts. Those who constantly state that taekwondo is "nothing more than shotokan" ignore this fact.




wrong answer.

NO ONE that i have seen says that TODAY tkd is nothing but shotokan.

original tkd? WAS SHOTOKAN and the high and fancy kicks were not a part of the system yet.

today it is its own animal and the cultural concentration on fancy kicks has made it that way

that isnt the point

the point is, TKD history starts, or should start with ONE word

shotokan


----------



## Kong Soo Do

> Originally Posted by *msmitht
> 
> *Did someone falsify the true history of tkd? Yes.





puunui said:


> Thinking that type of thought will, in my opinion, limit your progress in the korean martial arts.



May I ask how that would limit his progress in the Korean martial arts?  Thank you.


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> NO ONE that i have seen says that TODAY tkd is nothing but shotokan.
> 
> original tkd? WAS SHOTOKAN and the high and fancy kicks were not a part of the system yet.




Yes it was, from the beginning. GM LEE Won Kuk said that his students were all more interested in kicking, especially flying, jumping kicks. GM UHM Woon Kyu for example, was known for his side kick, including jumping side kick, which he used to beat everyone during sparring in the 1940s. Kicks have always been a large part of Taekwondo, from day one, due to Korea's cultural affinity for kicking.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist said:


> that isnt the point
> 
> the point is, TKD history starts, or should start with ONE word
> 
> shotokan



This is way too narrow. It ignores Shotokan's roots.


----------



## SahBumNimRush

Again, I think it's all about perspective.  Shotokan is *a root* of TKD, but I wouldn't say that it is *the root.*   Shudokan, Chuan Fa/kung fu/tai chi, Shotokan, indigenous korean  techniques/arts, etc.. . are the roots of TSD/TKD.  The techniques I've  seen from the early days don't look like just shotokan to me.  The high  kicks were there (I'm not referring to the fancy acrobatic kicks of  modern TKD), there were joint locks, throws, etc.. . Many things that,  to my knowledge, weren't exactly mainstay for Shotokan.  

For example, *if* the footage is actually from 1956, as the title  suggests.  There are flying kicks, high kicks, and variations in  techniques that differ from Shotokan.






These other videos are some 15-20 years after the formation of the original kwans, so I'm sure things evolved over that time, but these videos from the 1960's certainly don't look like Shotokan.


----------



## RobinTKD

Am I the only person who see's this thread as blatant trolling? Plenty of evidence has been given contrary to your original statement Twin Fist, do us the courtesy of providing us some to support said statement. 'Everyone knows' doesn't constitute evidence. In reference to similar forms, all I've seen are comparisons between Won-Hyo and Pinan-Shodan. Can you find any JMA forms that are the same as Toi-Gye? Hwa-Rang? Gae-Baek? What about the the Taeguks and Palgwe's? Please, I'd like to see them.


----------



## Gorilla

We train in both TKD and Shotokan...lots of things are very similar...and many are quite different.  Our lineage to shotkans founder is shorter in tkd than in karate.


----------



## Twin Fist

the refusal of some to admit the truth isnt my problem Robin.

no one has refuted ANYTHING I have claimed.

there is no 2000 year history of tkd, that is a LIE

refute THAT

the TRUE origin of TKD is OTHER arts, (primarily but not limited to shotokan) renamed and given a fake history for the sake of nationalism

refute THAT 

those are the only two assertions i have made, and niether has been refuted.

The Palgwe's came later, and most credit them with being the first original set of forms

the taeguks even later

the first forms? were mostly japense forms lifted whole from japanese arts

the truth isnt trolling



RobinTKD said:


> Am I the only person who see's this thread as blatant trolling? Plenty of evidence has been given contrary to your original statement Twin Fist, do us the courtesy of providing us some to support said statement. 'Everyone knows' doesn't constitute evidence. In reference to similar forms, all I've seen are comparisons between Won-Hyo and Pinan-Shodan. Can you find any JMA forms that are the same as Toi-Gye? Hwa-Rang? Gae-Baek? What about the the Taeguks and Palgwe's? Please, I'd like to see them.


----------



## Twin Fist

Earl Weiss said:


> This is way too narrow. It ignores Shotokan's roots.


yes Earl, but you have to start SOMEWHERE


----------



## dancingalone

RobinTKD said:


> In reference to similar forms, all I've seen are comparisons between Won-Hyo and Pinan-Shodan. Can you find any JMA forms that are the same as Toi-Gye? Hwa-Rang? Gae-Baek? What about the the Taeguks and Palgwe's? Please, I'd like to see them.



Most of the Chang Hon hyung taught to colored belts ARE very obvious reshuffles of the Pinan & Kusanku karate kata.  I don't know that I would give literal equivalents such this hyung = this kata, but the linkage with individual techniques are clear enough.  Look at Do-San for example - it has elements from Pinan Shodan (the Okinawan numbering system, not Japanese - I mean the form usually taught second after Pinan Nidan is learned) and Pinan Yondan within it.  

Chon-Ji serves the same purpose as the Taikyoku forms...Really, it's not hard to see the Pinan link with Dan-Gun or Won-Hyo or Yuk-Guk either.

Toi-Gye was likely inspired by Pinan Godan and Jitte.

Hwa-Rang is perhaps where it gets less obvious to see where General Choi was influenced by karate.  This stays true through the dan patterns IMO, except for Po-Eun where the comparisons to the 3 Naihanchi forms are inevitable.

As for the proposition that early TKD was the same creature as Shotokan karate... Well, I think that is a true enough statement for the TKD men who came from Chung Do Kwan or Oh Do Kwan backgrounds.  I understand the CDK was the largest kwan in number so they probably had a corresponding level of physical representation in what TKD was back then.  But as Dr. Rush as noted, there WERE exceptions, notably with the practitioners who had Shudokan karate or chuan fa in their backgrounds.  Of course, the question of what extent these other roots played in the development of taekwondo is a fair one to ask.  Looking around, I see little of CMA within TKD/TSD today even though a few small groups still practice the karate forms or the Chinese forms.


----------



## Twin Fist

puunui said:


> Yes it was, from the beginning. GM LEE Won Kuk said that his students were all more interested in kicking, especially flying, jumping kicks. GM UHM Woon Kyu for example, was known for his side kick, including jumping side kick, which he used to beat everyone during sparring in the 1940s. Kicks have always been a large part of Taekwondo, from day one, due to Korea's cultural affinity for kicking.




so IF this is true, where did these kicks come from? if they didnt exist in the source arts (which they ust not have IF they were a korean invention) , what is the origin of those techniques?

were they just basic japanese kicks done higher?

did the koreans invent them?

or were they "borrowed" from yet another art?


----------



## RobinTKD

All modern martial arts are 'stolen' from more traditional arts. Judo is just Jiu-Jiutsu without the striking, but even that was there at the beginning, the same can be said of Aikido. It's also been stated in this thread that Shotokan itself had 'stolen' things from other traditional Okinawan arts, Funakoshi basically admits as much in his auto-biography. Evidence has also been supplied that Gen. Choi DID credit Shotokan in his original Instruction booklet as well as other martial arts. You could argue that all the original Okinawan arts were stolen from Chinese Wushu. Nothing is original, and no one claimed it to be. No one claims that 'Taekwondo' is 2000 years old, what they claim is that it's ROOTS can stretch back that far. What do you think the Koreans used to fight with before? Of course they have their own traditional martial arts, Hwa-Rang Do for example, Taekkyon.

Also, there is stating a truth (or making a statement), and then there is trying to provoke a reaction with stand offish comments. The latter IS trolling.


----------



## RobinTKD

dancingalone said:


> Most of the Chang Hon hyung taught to colored belts ARE very obvious reshuffles of the Pinan & Kusanku karate kata.  I don't know that I would give literal equivalents such this hyung = this kata, but the linkage with individual techniques are clear enough.  Look at Do-San for example - it has elements from Pinan Shodan (the Okinawan numbering system, not Japanese - I mean the form usually taught second after Pinan Nidan is learned) and Pinan Yondan within it.
> 
> Chon-Ji serves the same purpose as the Taikyoku forms...Really, it's not hard to see the Pinan link with Dan-Gun or Won-Hyo or Yuk-Guk either.
> 
> Toi-Gye was likely inspired by Pinan Godan and Jitte.
> 
> Hwa-Rang is perhaps where it gets less obvious to see where General Choi was influenced by karate.  This stays true through the dan patterns IMO, except for Po-Eun where the comparisons to the 3 Naihanchi forms are inevitable.



Thank you Alex, I respect your knowledge, I'll certainly now go and find the similarities myself.


----------



## Twin Fist

and the thing is, there is NO SHAME is admitting the root of the art

telling the truth about tkd hurts only ONE thing

ego

without ego, those discussion wouldnt be needed


----------



## Twin Fist

so, when someone else says the same thing i said, thats ok but when i say it is trolling?

oh BTW if you think Hwa Rhang Do is really an ancient art, you need to learn some accurate history.


----------



## Twin Fist

let me give you a hint Robin, there are NO styles or schools in korea that go back prior than WW2

NONE

do the research, you will learn


----------



## RobinTKD

Twin Fist said:


> and the thing is, there is NO SHAME is admitting the root of the art



I agree.



Twin Fist said:


> telling the truth about tkd hurts only ONE thing
> 
> ego



The truth of TKD is the same truth for all martial arts. The difference is that Taekwondo can be considered a 'Modern' martial art in comparison to others, it's only 'officially' been around since 1955 (depending on what you believe). As a result we can use modern forms of evidence to show how new it is, and either give it flack for it, or embrace it. I still believe that what little I'll admit I've seen of what was practised in the 50's IS different to Shotokan. I also see differences in the original Kwans, Chung-Do Kwan and Moo Duk Kwan etc between them and not just Shotokan, but almost all JMA's. The kicking mechanics are completely different.



Twin Fist said:


> without ego, those discussion wouldnt be needed



Without ego, martial arts wouldn't be needed.


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> so IF this is true, where did these kicks come from? if they didnt exist in the source arts (which they ust not have IF they were a korean invention) , what is the origin of those techniques?
> 
> were they just basic japanese kicks done higher?
> 
> did the koreans invent them?
> 
> or were they "borrowed" from yet another art?




I already explained it in a prior post in this topic. And it is not so much the kicks themselves so much as it is the focus and emphasis of kicks over hand strikes, which is NOT a shotokan trademark. Even the name karate ignores kicks completely, unlike the name taekwondo.


----------



## Twin Fist

so it follows that you believe the change in emphasis from hands to feet is enough of a change to justify changing the name and calling it new?

or do i misunderstand you?


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> so it follows that you believe the change in emphasis from hands to feet is enough of a change to justify changing the name and calling it new?
> 
> or do i misunderstand you?




The emphasis from hands to feet is enough of a change to justify me stating that taekwondo, even "original" taekwondo is not merely or just shotokan. As for the name, who cares about that? I know Funakoshi Sensei wouldn't care. He said so in his autobiography and he also stated that he fully expected the names to change again in the future. So if he wouldn't care, why should you?


----------



## Twin Fist

fair enough.

i dont know if i agree or not.

but

thats a fair reason for thinking the way you do.

as for the name? like i said, in some things, names count.


----------



## elder999

SahBumNimRush said:


> Again, ), there were joint locks, throws, etc.. . Many things that, to my knowledge, weren't exactly mainstay for Shotokan.



All those things have always existed in the Pinan/Heian kata-it's part of the reason I gave up tae kwon do: my kyokushin teachers knew this, and my tae kwon do teachers did not:

Funakoshi, from his book _Ryuku Kenpo Toudi_, circa 1922:

View attachment $5.gifView attachment $1.gifView attachment $2.gifView attachment $3.gif

All from Pinan/Heian shodan.


----------



## Buka

Back in the day of the dinosaur -

Triceratops - "You have to uppercut and headbutt, that's the key."
Stegasaurus - "No, no, no, typical armor plated stylist, always leading with his head. Armbars, that's the way to go."
Utahraptor - "You can't armbar a T-Rex, their arms are too short. You armbar Velocoraptors."
Allosaurus - "Well, ya, but only if you've trained against multiples."
Brontosaurus - "I'm telling you, stay in the water and smash them with a tail whip."
Gigantosaurus - (whispering) "Don't listen to him, I hear he lives in a McSwamp."


This conversation is overheard by two Pterodactyls flying overhead.
The First -" What's that smell? "
The Second. "I think it's the smell of the approaching dawn of man."
The First. - "****, there goes the neighborhood."


----------



## Cyriacus

Buka said:


> Back in the day of the dinosaur -
> 
> Triceratops - "You have to uppercut and headbutt, that's the key."
> Stegasaurus - "No, no, no, typical armor plated stylist, always leading with his head. Armbars, that's the way to go."
> Utahraptor - "You can't armbar a T-Rex, their arms are too short. You armbar Velocoraptors."
> Allosaurus - "Well, ya, but only if you've trained against multiples."
> Brontosaurus - "I'm telling you, stay in the water and smash them with a tail whip."
> Gigantosaurus - (whispering) "Don't listen to him, I hear he lives in a McSwamp."
> 
> 
> This conversation is overheard by two Pterodactyls flying overhead.
> The First -" What's that smell? "
> The Second. "I think it's the smell of the approaching dawn of man."
> The First. - "****, there goes the neighborhood."


I only half followed some of that, but it was amusing nevertheless


----------



## mastercole

SahBumNimRush said:


> I'd like to note that I have also found this to be a very interesting discussion.  Furthermore, since I have no lineage through the ITF or the KKW, I don't really have a dog in this fight, so to speak.  In case any of my comments lead anyone to believe that I have been stricken with a hemorrhoid over the thread, I would just like to set the record straight that I have not
> 
> I enjoy discussing KMA/TSD/TKD history, although I am no historian.  I do make an honest attempt to understand what my history is, and where it comes from.  As stated previously, I acknowledge my art's Shotokan roots, but I also recognize that there are other roots outside of Shotokan as well.



Why would you not have roots through the Kukkiwon?  I thought GM Kang was you teacher?


----------



## mastercole

elder999 said:


> All those things have always existed in the Pinan/Heian kata-it's part of the reason I gave up tae kwon do: my kyokushin teachers knew this, and my tae kwon do teachers did not:
> 
> Funakoshi, from his book _Ryuku Kenpo Toudi_, circa 1922:
> 
> View attachment 15987View attachment 15988View attachment 15989View attachment 15990
> 
> All from Pinan/Heian shodan.



We must have trained with very different Taekwondo teachers.  My Taekwondo teachers taught that you could make up any thing you like in regard to what Poomsae, Hyung, Kata, etc, because that is what the masters of Karate did, they made it up.


----------



## elder999

mastercole said:


> We must have trained with very different Taekwondo teachers. My Taekwondo teachers taught that you could make up any thing you like in regard to what Poomsae, Hyung, Kata, etc, because that is what the masters of Karate did, they made it up.



:lfao:

No.....:lfao:....that's _Korean_.....:lfao:....for......:lfao:....._"I have no idea."_ :lfao:


----------



## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist said:


> so it follows that you believe the change in emphasis from hands to feet is enough of a change to justify changing the name and calling it new?
> 
> or do i misunderstand you?



It is a matter of degree as to when something is new or just a slight modification. Perhaps some critiqued Funakoshi as being re hashed Okinawan systems.  Aside from the greater variety and emphasis on kicking I see a noted difference in the "Deeply Rooted"  to the earth idea of Shotokan to generate power and the TKD ideas which embrace power generation even while airborn.


----------



## Earl Weiss

mastercole said:


> We must have trained with very different Taekwondo teachers. My Taekwondo teachers taught that you could make up any thing you like in regard to what Poomsae, Hyung, Kata, etc, because that is what the masters of Karate did, they made it up.



Abso freekin lootely. Goes back to another thread. "Wax On Wax off" The way of moving was most important. Then you figured out any practical way of applying the motion.


----------



## mastercole

elder999 said:


> :lfao:
> 
> No.....:lfao:....that's _Korean_.....:lfao:....for......:lfao:....._"I have no idea."_ :lfao:



No it's Korean for I have a lot of ideas, and you came have them to, just like the karate guy that fantasized about how this stuff 'might' work.

Live application is much more exciting anyway.


----------



## elder999

mastercole said:


> No it's Korean for I have a lot of ideas, and you came have them to, just like the karate guy that fantasized about how this stuff 'might' work.
> 
> Live application is much more exciting anyway.



Oooh, I guess that's true-the "_founding geniuses of tae kwon do"_ studied with the likes of Toyama and Funakoshi, and then said "Make something up with it," was the best bunkai, *years after Funakoshi showed bunkai in a book.



*EDIT: To be fair, there probably weren't many Shotokan instructors in the U.S. aware of or teaching the grappling bunkai of these kata-not back in the 70's, anyway-in spite of their having been recorded in books for more than 50 years. My Kyokushin instructors knew them and taught them. My tae kwon do instructors did not.


----------



## mastercole

elder999 said:


> Oooh, I guess that's true-the "_founding geniuses of tae kwon do"_ studied with the likes of Toyama and Funakoshi, and then said "Make something up with it," was the best bunkai, *years after Funakoshi showed bunkai in a book.
> 
> 
> *EDIT: To be fair, there probably weren't many Shotokan instructors in the U.S. aware of or teaching the grappling bunkai of these kata-not back in the 70's, anyway-in spite of their having been recorded in books for more than 50 years. My Kyokushin instructors knew them and taught them. My tae kwon do instructors did not.



They did study with those men and they were very proud of it. But they had the vision to move beyond that. Thank God! That is why I left karate and followed them, to much bunkai, not enough real application 

As for bunkai, it's an interesting look at a bunch of theories that don't apply when the going gets real, nothing a good old fashioned American punch in the nose would not shut down, at least that's been my personal experience with bunkai.  But if you like it, cool, I recommend you publish a book, some folks out there might be interested.


----------



## elder999

mastercole said:


> As for bunkai, it's an interesting look at a bunch of theories that don't apply when the going gets real, nothing a good old fashioned American punch in the nose would not shut down, at least that's been my personal experience with bunkai. .



And it's been my experience that everyone is planning on a "_good old fashioned American punch to the nose_," right up until I drop them on their head. :lfao:


----------



## mastercole

elder999 said:


> And it's been my experience that everyone is planning on a "_good old fashioned American punch to the nose_," right up until I drop them on their head. :lfao:



Everyone is a lot of people. That's the thing about bunkai, it develops one powers of imagination to great heights.


----------



## elder999

mastercole said:


> Everyone is a lot of people. That's the thing about bunkai, it develops one powers of imagination to great heights.



Oooh, and "just figure out what works for you" is sooo much less imaginative.... :lfao:

Seriously-the point was made that the demonstrations shown included throws and joint locks-grappling-that "Shotokan wasn't known for." I've pretty much shown that the Pinan kata contain these types of grappling, _and always have_.They *are* the Shotokan kata that the "founders of tae kwon do" learned, or, if you prefer, the Shudokan kata that the_ other "_founders of tae kwon do" learned. 

I guess it's so much easier to say that they "moved past" karate, right to what was always karate in the first place. Sheer genius. :lfao:


----------



## mastercole

elder999 said:


> Oooh, and "just figure out what works for you" is sooo much less imaginative.... :lfao:
> 
> Seriously-the point was made that the demonstrations shown included throws and joint locks-grappling-that "Shotokan wasn't known for." I've pretty much shown that the Pinan kata contain these types of grappling, _and always have_.They *are* the Shotokan kata that the "founders of tae kwon do" learned, or, if you prefer, the Shudokan kata that the_ other "_founders of tae kwon do" learned.
> 
> I guess it's so much easier to say that they "moved past" karate, right to what was always karate in the first place. Sheer genius. :lfao:



Disrespect your Taekwondo teachers if you must.  I am sure that nothing I have to write will change that, and why should it.  At least thank them, as I do, for motivating you to leave, aiding you to get to the point you are currently at.


----------



## elder999

mastercole;[URL="tel:1454282" said:
			
		

> 1454282[/URL]]Disrespect your Taekwondo teachers if you must. I am sure that nothing I have to write will change that, and why should it. At least thank them, as I do, for motivating you to leave, aiding you to get to the point you are currently at.



Mike McGinnis was a guard at my dad's prison. Dr. Park was a pretty fierce guy-and *smart!*-as were all those lawyers from Pace University.

Master Son was a true gentleman, who taught what he had learned to many.

I haven't called them liars and thieves-I've only posted facts-and I stuck with them to Yi dan before choosing-out of _respect_.

I don't disrespect* them* at all.  

(*Honestly*, you'd think we were on the JudoForum or something.....:lol: )


----------



## mastercole

elder999 said:


> Mike McGinnis was a guard at my dad's prison. Dr. Park was a pretty fierce guy-and *smart!*-as were all those lawyers from Pace University.
> 
> Master Son was a true gentleman, who taught what he had learned to many.
> 
> I haven't called them liars and thieves-I've only posted facts-and I stuck with them to Yi dan before choosing-out of _respect_.
> 
> I don't disrespect* them* at all.




That's fantastic, they are so fortunate that a former student still expresses respect for them, I mean, Korean culture is Taekwondo culture so to be so respected by Korean masters -- being promoted not once, but twice by them, to me is a sign that they must have respected you. Congratulations on achieving Yi Dan from them.


----------



## elder999

mastercole said:


> That's fantastic, they are so fortunate that a former student still expresses respect for them, I mean, Korean culture is Taekwondo culture so to be so respected by Korean masters -- being promoted not once, but twice by them, to me is a sign that they must have respected you. Congratulations on achieving Yi Dan from them.



That was *30* years ago.........thanks, though.

EDIT: More than 30 years....jeez, I'm gettin' old....:lfao:


----------



## Tez3

mastercole said:


> They did study with those men and they were very proud of it. But they had the vision to move beyond that. Thank God! That is why I left karate and followed them, to much bunkai, not enough real application
> 
> As for bunkai, it's an interesting look at a bunch of theories that don't apply when the going gets real, nothing a good old fashioned American punch in the nose would not shut down, at least that's been my personal experience with bunkai. But if you like it, cool, I recommend you publish a book, some folks out there might be interested.




If you think Bunkai is theory you were definitely doing it wrong, and there are some very good books by some very good karateka on Bunkai and it's use in self defence, it's straight forward stuff that will take an attacker down, the old fashioned punch is in there anyway, if you didn't see it then you have really haven't got the point of Bunkai.
Try this series, plenty of TKD train this way as well.
http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/basics-bunkai-part-1


----------



## mastercole

Tez3 said:


> If you think Bunkai is theory you were definitely doing it wrong, and there are some very good books by some very good karateka on Bunkai and it's use in self defence, it's straight forward stuff that will take an attacker down, the old fashioned punch is in there anyway, if you didn't see it then you have really haven't got the point of Bunkai.
> Try this series, plenty of TKD train this way as well.
> http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/basics-bunkai-part-1



If I wanted to learn anything, from anyone, I would go to the source to learn it, like I do with everything.  Why would I go down the line, far from the source?  But thank you for you wise guidance.


----------



## Tez3

mastercole said:


> If I wanted to learn anything, from anyone, I would go to the source to learn it, like I do with everything. Why would I go down the line, far from the source? But thank you for you wise guidance.




I have no idea what you are talking about. What source, who? Down what line? Are you saying karateka like Iain have no idea what they are talking about?


----------



## Earl Weiss

Tez3 said:


> Try this series, plenty of TKD train this way as well.
> http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/basics-bunkai-part-1



From the above article:" In this first article we've established that the modern labels aren't descriptions of function, that "blocks" aren't blocks, "

IMNSHO if you believe this as an absolute ---"Blocks" aren't --- never are Blocks, then your scope is too narrow.


----------



## SahBumNimRush

elder999 said:


> All those things have always existed in the Pinan/Heian kata-it's part of the reason I gave up tae kwon do: my kyokushin teachers knew this, and my tae kwon do teachers did not:
> 
> Funakoshi, from his book _Ryuku Kenpo Toudi_, circa 1922:
> 
> View attachment 15987View attachment 15988View attachment 15989View attachment 15990
> 
> All from Pinan/Heian shodan.



Yes, I suppose that wasn't a great example.. . I am aware of the applications within these forms.  What I was getting at was that there are other arts that *emphasize* these elements more so than Shotokan.  Shotokan isn't *known* for its grappling, throwing, or locking as is arts such as Aikido, Hapkido, or Jujutsu per say.


----------



## SahBumNimRush

mastercole said:


> Why would you not have roots through the Kukkiwon?  I thought GM Kang was you teacher?





Yes, my statement isn't as clear as it should've been.  GM Kang, my KJN is Kukkiwon certified, so by that fact, I have roots through the KKW.  However, no bb under him is KKW certified and we do not teach a KKW curriculum.  All of our terminology is pre-KKW and all of our forms are pre-KKW.  What I meant by my previous statement is that I do not practice a curriculum based on the ITF or the KKW.


----------



## elder999

Tez3 said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about. What source, who? Down what line? Are you saying karateka like Iain have no idea what they are talking about?



No. I'm  sure he means he'd go to the source, as I did.

*Japan.* :lfao:


----------



## dancingalone

mastercole said:


> As for bunkai, it's an interesting look at a bunch of theories that don't apply when the going gets real, nothing a good old fashioned American punch in the nose would not shut down, at least that's been my personal experience with bunkai.  But if you like it, cool, I recommend you publish a book, some folks out there might be interested.



Not all bunkai is the same, and it shouldn't be relegated to the same mental drawer.  This is another occasion where the particular type of karate and its training methods is important when discussing it.  Some styles don't have it at all.  Others do, but perhaps are more removed in relevance comparatively.  And then there's the modern material which attempts to reinterpret kata to current common scenarios with varying levels of success.

Bunkai simply isn't a homogeneous concept anymore than karate is.


----------



## SahBumNimRush

Earl Weiss said:


> It is a matter of degree as to when something is new or just a slight modification. Perhaps some critiqued Funakoshi as being re hashed Okinawan systems.  Aside from the greater variety and emphasis on kicking I see a noted difference in the "Deeply Rooted"  to the earth idea of Shotokan to generate power and the TKD ideas which embrace power generation even while airborn.



We certainly use/teach ground reactive force generation (a.k.a. "deeply rooted to the earth"), but I was taught that the key to generating the power in TSD/TKD is in hip/waist torque/rotation/snap.  Something that to my knowledge was not a Shotokan principle.  

For instance, the mechanics/power generation demonstrated in this video is vastly different than how I was taught to execute the movements.


----------



## Twin Fist

elder999 said:


> No. I'm  sure he means he'd go to the source, as I did.
> 
> *Japan.* :lfao:



well played Sir


----------



## miguksaram

Twin Fist said:
			
		

> the refusal of some to admit the truth isnt my problem Robin.
> 
> no one has refuted ANYTHING I have claimed.



The problem  is that you are stuck in one moment in time.  Did TKD historians claim a  2000 year old art?  Yes they did.  Why did they do it? Well there is a reason, good or bad, to  how this came about.  Perhaps you should look more deeply into it rather than spout out how the KKW are thieves, which is curious...if the Koreans are such thieves then why study an art and allow yourself to be ranked in it?  What does that make you?

In this modern day and age the vast majority of  practitioners of TKD know the real roots of TKD and in fact appreciate  it even more than the made up version because the real history depicts  the struggles that the TKD pioneers went through to not only practice what they learned but to develop and evolve what they learned into the art we see today.  None of the pioneers have denied their karate training.  Ask any of them who are still around.  Their students do not deny that it either. 

If your next argument is "there are still schools that depict this 2000 year old history.  I would say yes, you are correct.  There are still schools out there who do that.  Why?  Because they are too lazy to either do their own flyers and borrowed something they found on the internet or they are just too lazy to research the truth themselves.  However to keep this rant up about Koreans being thieves and liars does not "butthurt" anyone, just makes you look like a troll.  I am curious...did you call the Korean that was overlooking your 3rd dan test a thief and liar when you had the chance?  Oh...and your American Flag is backwards on your wall...you may want to fix that.


----------



## dancingalone

SahBumNimRush said:


> We certainly use/teach ground reactive force generation (a.k.a. "deeply rooted to the earth"), but I was taught that the key to generating the power in TSD/TKD is in hip/waist torque/rotation/snap.  Something that to my knowledge was not a Shotokan principle.
> 
> For instance, the mechanics/power generation demonstrated in this video is vastly different than how I was taught to execute the movements.




Current JKA and JKS Shotokan standards have hip twist as a key principle of power generation.  My idle thought is that became more of an emphasis under the leadership of Nakayama, Matayoshi in Shotokan than perhaps under Funakoshi Sensei.  If you look at Nakayama Sensei's book Dynamic Karate, a primer on circa 1960s-1970s Shotokan, there are a few pages on the topic.


----------



## SahBumNimRush

dancingalone said:


> Current JKA and JKS Shotokan standards have hip twist as a key principle of power generation.  My idle thought is that became more of an emphasis under the leadership of Nakayama, Matayoshi in Shotokan than perhaps under Funakoshi Sensei.  If you look at Nakayama Sensei's book Dynamic Karate, a primer on circa 1960s-1970s Shotokan, there are a few pages on the topic.



I was told that just as the Koreans adapted JMA's, the Japanese adapted the Koreans' kicking mechanics.  Simply adapt to what is useful.  I have no evidence to support this claim, but it is what I was told by my Sahbumnim.


----------



## Tez3

Earl Weiss said:


> From the above article:" In this first article we've established that the modern labels aren't descriptions of function, that "blocks" aren't blocks, "
> 
> IMNSHO if you believe this as an absolute ---"Blocks" aren't --- never are Blocks, then your scope is too narrow.




Blocks in inverted commas... meaning that people are calling a good many things blocks when they aren't actually blocks. Now, it doesn't say blocks are never blocks, you did.
It goes with this and you've taken it entirely out of context.....
_"The Okinawan school children were taught the kata so that they could gain the benefits of increased discipline and physical fitness, but the combative meanings of the movements were deliberately obscured in order to ensure training was safe and appropriate for those of a young age. Therefore terms like "Inner-Block", "Outer-Block", "Rising-Block" etc stem from the "watered down" children's karate and not the potent fighting art developed by the warriors of Okinawa ."


_Call things 'blocks' and they emphasis the nice part of karate suitable for children, however the things that were called blocks continued to be taught as them when passed on to non Japanese adults.

 The movements that really are blocks are of course taught as blocks, just the movements that were formerly known as blocks named so for children's practice are again being called strikes.


----------



## dancingalone

SahBumNimRush said:


> I was told that just as the Koreans adapted JMA's, the Japanese adapted the Koreans' kicking mechanics.  Simply adapt to what is useful.  I have no evidence to support this claim, but it is what I was told by my Sahbumnim.



Cross pollination is inevitable.  I'm a great example of the phenomenon myself.  Although I primarily think of myself as a Goju karate-ka, I've intentionally retained some kicking methods from my TKD days as I believe they are advantageous in certain situations.


----------



## SahBumNimRush

dancingalone said:


> Cross pollination is inevitable.  I'm a great example of the phenomenon myself.  Although I primarily think of myself as a Goju karate-ka, I've intentionally retained some kicking methods from my TKD days as I believe they are advantageous in certain situations.



Not only is it inevitable, but I believe when done with careful and dutiful intent, it is an asset.


----------



## Twin Fist

Lookie here,
you just admitted i was right, on BOTH counts, yet you are still arguing with me

i was right, and people are in fact acting like they are all butthurt.

truth hurts, but that isnt my fault, nor is it my problem

1) I aint the one stuck defending the liars that run the KKW

I dont care why they lied, the point is THEY LIED and continue to lie and people continue to defend it, making them liars as well.

Why study tkd if it is based on lies? I didnt know at the time i started. If i was just starting out? knowing what I do about the REAL history of the korean arts? i would avoid them like the plague. It is all based on lies and made up histories that didnt happen.

Great example of this history of korean lies? kuk sul won 

great style, no need what so ever to lie about it, but they just cant tell the truth, that the Suh brothers studied TKD, and Hapkido, and some chinese stuff and created a style out of it. NOPE< they gotta lie and weave some bullcrap story about 1000's of years of history and tradition....blah blah blah

it might seem that there is, in matter related to martial arts, an almost national inferiority complex in Korea. I have been there and seen it myself. This is prob a natural reaction to having been a conquered and enslaved people for decades.

BTW- there hasnt been a korean in my lineage since jhoon rhee in 1958.

AMERICAN TKD. 
Jhoon Rhee
Allen Steen
Billy Bramer
Brax Boyd
Me

thats for the line i got my 1st dan under

Jhoon Rhee
Allen Steen
Larry Wheeler
William Shelton
Kristi Shawky
ME

thats for my 2nd-4th

no koreans, so you are either imagining things or making things up

same with the flag crap, what are you talking about? 





miguksaram said:


> The problem  is that you are stuck in one moment in time.  Did TKD historians claim a  2000 year old art?  Yes they did.  Why did they do it? Well there is a reason, good or bad, to  how this came about.  Perhaps you should look more deeply into it rather than spout out how the KKW are thieves, which is curious...if the Koreans are such thieves then why study an art and allow yourself to be ranked in it?  What does that make you?
> 
> In this modern day and age the vast majority of  practitioners of TKD know the real roots of TKD and in fact appreciate  it even more than the made up version because the real history depicts  the struggles that the TKD pioneers went through to not only practice what they learned but to develop and evolve what they learned into the art we see today.  None of the pioneers have denied their karate training.  Ask any of them who are still around.  Their students do not deny that it either.
> 
> If your next argument is "there are still schools that depict this 2000 year old history.  I would say yes, you are correct.  There are still schools out there who do that.  Why?  Because they are too lazy to either do their own flyers and borrowed something they found on the internet or they are just too lazy to research the truth themselves.  However to keep this rant up about Koreans being thieves and liars does not "butthurt" anyone, just makes you look like a troll.  I am curious...did you call the Korean that was overlooking your 3rd dan test a thief and liar when you had the chance?  Oh...and your American Flag is backwards on your wall...you may want to fix that.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Twin Fist said:


> Lookie here,
> you just admitted i was right, on BOTH counts, yet you are still arguing with me
> 
> i was right, and people are in fact acting like they are all butthurt.
> 
> truth hurts, but that isnt my fault, nor is it my problem
> 
> 1) I aint the one stuck defending the liars that run the KKW
> 
> I dont care why they lied, the point is THEY LIED and continue to lie and people continue to defend it, making them liars as well.
> 
> Why study tkd if it is based on lies? I didnt know at the time i started. If i was just starting out? knowing what I do about the REAL history of the korean arts? i would avoid them like the plague. It is all based on lies and made up histories that didnt happen.
> 
> Great example of this history of korean lies? kuk sul won
> 
> great style, no need what so ever to lie about it, but they just cant tell the truth, that the Suh brothers studied TKD, and Hapkido, and some chinese stuff and created a style out of it. NOPE< they gotta lie and weave some bullcrap story about 1000's of years of history and tradition....blah blah blah
> 
> it might seem that there is, in matter related to martial arts, an almost national inferiority complex in Korea. I have been there and seen it myself. This is prob a natural reaction to having been a conquered and enslaved people for decades.
> 
> BTW- there hasnt been a korean in my lineage since jhoon rhee in 1958.
> 
> AMERICAN TKD.
> Jhoon Rhee
> Allen Steen
> Billy Bramer
> Brax Boyd
> Me
> 
> thats for the line i got my 1st dan under
> 
> Jhoon Rhee
> Allen Steen
> Larry Wheeler
> William Shelton
> Kristi Shawky
> ME
> 
> thats for my 2nd-4th
> 
> no koreans, so you are either imagining things or making things up
> 
> same with the flag crap, what are you talking about?


I think you hit on an interesting point. There is a huge amount of national pride in Korea. The truth is Martial Arts have been practiced in Korea for thousands of years, but only a limited fassion. There weren't TKD schools on every corner, but they were training in some circles. Martial Arts as a business is what is new, and if ShotoKan was close enough, to their idea of what Martial Arts are, I see no reason to re-invent and or attempt to seek only Korean historical training manuals, when the Japanese already took the trouble of creating a modern system. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I don't consider it a lie to say Korea has been involved in Martial Arts for thousands of years; sure, it was Kung Fu, but didn't all that come from India? Africa?
Sean


----------



## Earl Weiss

Tez3 said:


> Blocks in inverted commas... meaning that people are calling a good many things blocks when they aren't actually blocks. Now, it doesn't say blocks are never blocks, you did.
> .



Well here's another quote; " So if the movements we commonly call "blocks" were originally never intended to be applied as blocks, what are they?"

"Never intended" seems pretty clear to me.  That's what "It" says. Not what I say.


----------



## miguksaram

Twin Fist said:


> thats for my 2nd-4th
> 
> no koreans, so you are either imagining things or making things up
> 
> same with the flag crap, what are you talking about?






Is this not your video?

If not then I apologize as I thought this was you and your school.  If it is then please note that the flag on the back has the stars on the right hand side.  This is in correct.  I was not making up the Korean on the testing board, however, it may just be the quality of the film which makes it hard to make out the board members.  I was speaking about the 3rd and 4th person from the right.  If they are not then my mistake.  BTW...have you written GM Rhee to remind him what a thief and a liar he is.  Just curious.


----------



## Twin Fist

martial arts certainly existed in korea's past, that isnt in question

the problem comes from the fact that there is no school or style in korea today that can honestly trace itself back any further than the end of WW2

during the japanese occupation, all martial arts practice was forbidden, and the local masters killed.

what is practiced as taekkyon today? a modern re-invention of a classic exercise, but thats all it is, a re-invention. At BEST it is based on ONE mans testimony, song duk ki

all other links to the past were severed during the occupation. 

there is nothing wrong with saying "we lost what we had, so we took some of this or that and recreated something new for ourselves"

mind you in a very real way, this is all irrelevant, since modern korean martial arts are TODAY, thier own entity

but the thing is, if you cant or wont tell the truth about your origins, your entire house is crap because it is based on a lie.


Touch Of Death said:


> I think you hit on an interesting point. There is a huge amount of national pride in Korea. The truth is Martial Arts have been practiced in Korea for thousands of years, but only a limited fassion. There weren't TKD schools on every corner, but they were training in some circles. Martial Arts as a business is what is new, and if ShotoKan was close enough, to their idea of what Martial Arts are, I see no reason to re-invent and or attempt to seek only Korean historical training manuals, when the Japanese already took the trouble of creating a modern system. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I don't consider it a lie to say Korea has been involved in Martial Arts for thousands of years; sure, it was Kung Fu, but didn't all that come from India? Africa?
> Sean


----------



## Twin Fist

thats not my school, thats my instructors school. She hangs the flag however she wants to. And in either case, thats how we hang the stars and stripes here. and are you seriously gonna get THAT petty?

The person you are referring to is GM WILLIAM SHELTON 8th Dan under GM Larry Wheeler, He is half white, and half korean on his mother's side. Army brat. American, doesnt speak a word of korean. 

Here is a clip of him:






he is doing a japanese form BTW, i asked him why he does japanese forms he said "thats TKD's roots"


----------



## miguksaram

Twin Fist said:


> thats not my school, thats my instructors  school. She hangs the flag however she wants to. And in either case,  thats how we hang the stars and stripes here. and are you seriously  gonna get THAT petty?


Not trying to be petty, just making an  observation.  Sounds like your butt is starting to get sore for someone  pointing out just a simple observation about the wrong way of hanging  the flag.  You are right...you  can hang the flag however you want...still makes it the wrong  regardless.



> The person you are referring to is GM WILLIAM SHELTON 8th Dan  under GM Larry Wheeler, He is half white, and half korean on his  mother's side. Army brat. American, doesnt speak a word of korean.
> 
> he is doing a japanese form BTW, i asked him why he does japanese forms he said "thats TKD's roots"


Thanks  for pointing out that the gentleman was half-Korea, nice to know that  my eyes aren't totally bad and that I'm not making things up.  So since  he is a half Korean martial artist, did you explain to him why he is a  half liar & thief since you declared that when it comes to martial arts Koreans are liars and thieves?


----------



## Twin Fist

it isnt MY flag, so it isnt MY way of hanging it Hoss.

he isnt korean. Pretty sure i said that, leme see.

yep right there
"_He is half white, and half korean on his mother's side. Army brat. American, doesnt speak a word of korean."
_
so you again are being petty

sorry the truth makes your *** so sore.


----------



## Twin Fist

at any rate, i have made my point, and been proven correct in my assertions. 

if you have to lie, you will never get respect

Thus ends the lesson


----------



## puunui

elder999 said:


> No. I'm  sure he means he'd go to the source, as I did.
> 
> *Japan.* :lfao:



As far as countries go, the source would be Okinawa, or even China, not Japan.

Speaking of a different source, if you wanted pressure points, joint locks and throws, why not study something like Jujutsu or even Hapkido instead of having to do the easter egg hunt thing with karate bunkai? By learning Jujitsu or Hapkido directly, you would get not only those pressure points, joint locks and throws, but you would also have the benefit of learning those techniques in an organized, orderly fashion.


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


> Everyone is a lot of people. That's the thing about bunkai, it develops one powers of imagination to great heights.



Reverse engineering applications into forms doesn't sound like the most efficient utilization of one's training time to me. It does, as you say, help stimulate one's imagination.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> Current JKA and JKS Shotokan standards have hip twist as a key principle of power generation.  My idle thought is that became more of an emphasis under the leadership of Nakayama, Matayoshi in Shotokan than perhaps under Funakoshi Sensei.  If you look at Nakayama Sensei's book Dynamic Karate, a primer on circa 1960s-1970s Shotokan, there are a few pages on the topic.




The shotokan karate of FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei, who was GM LEE Won Kuk's teacher, was more focused on weight transfer than merely hip twist. Yoshitaka Sensei put his whole body into his techniques, which was passed on to the students of the Chung Do Kwan. An example of this can be found in the kukkiwon poomsae hansu, in those three punches in the beginning.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Earl Weiss said:


> Well here's another quote; " So if the movements we commonly call "blocks" were originally never intended to be applied as blocks, what are they?"
> 
> "Never intended" seems pretty clear to me.  That's what "It" says. Not what I say.



As Tez mentioned, Itosu Sensei did change the terminology of certain kata, specifically the Pinan series for the consumption of Okinawan school children.  Itosu Sensei was a college professor and was instrumental in having Karate implemented in the school system.  His change of terminology took out the more damaging principles of the kata bunkai.  It was replaced/relabled with various types of 'blocks'.  These movements weren't intended, in the original bunkai, to be actual blocks.  The question of 'what are they' will differ depending upon the movement we're examining.  For example, the opening movements of Pinan Shodan can be interpreted as a block with the palm while covering the head with the upper arm.  This isn't the most efficent, or practical use for this movement.  The bunkai, as originally taught by Itosu was a shoulder lock which could then be translated into a takedown.  The common 'high block' could be interpreted as blocking/intercepting/deflecting an overhead attack.  While this could have merit in some circumstances, it doesn't take into account the other hand that is chambered on the hip.  In Okinawan Karate, no movements were wasted i.e. economy of motion.  The bunkai for the chambering of the hand/fist on the hip is most often that of having something in the hand and bringing it to you i.e. grasping the attacker's arm or clothing and bringing it into your center and off-balancing him while simultaneously delivering a forearm strike to the upper body/throat or head of the attacker as he is coming into you.  This can be accomplished at 'normal' fighting distance i.e. arms length but more importantly at grappling distance.

Another example is the 'down block' (some have other names for it).  This is the 'block' that is in a downward arcing motion to your side, commonly taught to block/deflect and incoming kick from the side.  Here is the issue though with that interpretation;  it puts the shin bone of the attacker against the radial bone of the defender.  The radial bone is the smallest bone in the forearm and is less dense/strong than the shin bone.  As someone that has done hard body conditioning, a shin type kick (side snap kick for example) can and will break the arm of the defender.  Trust me...I know the damage a conditioned shin can do to someone.  The more accurate bunkai (depending upon the source material) would be of a downward hammer fist to someone's groin, often from a grappling position.  It is quick, accurate and allows for multiple follow up strikes/locks.  

These are just some quick, short worded examples for consideration.  Sorry to take it off topic but you asked a legitimate question that I felt deserved some response.


----------



## puunui

SahBumNimRush said:


> Yes, my statement isn't as clear as it should've been.  GM Kang, my KJN is Kukkiwon certified, so by that fact, I have roots through the KKW.  However, no bb under him is KKW certified and we do not teach a KKW curriculum.  All of our terminology is pre-KKW and all of our forms are pre-KKW.  What I meant by my previous statement is that I do not practice a curriculum based on the ITF or the KKW.




Because GM Kang is Kukkiwon certified, does that in any way make you to also desire kukkiwon certification for yourself and your students? What will happen when GM Kang is no longer around to certify you?


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> it isnt MY flag, so it isnt MY way of hanging it Hoss.
> 
> so you again are being petty




Ten years ago, during the USTU hate fest, some american borns were criticizing their korean born teachers and seniors for displaying the flag like how is shown in the video. Those americans cited to the United States Code (federal law) on the proper way to display the american flag. Their argument was that these Korean born seniors and teachers had no respect for the american flag, and by extension, had no respect for the US or americans. Some made a really big deal out of it. How did the korean born instructors respond? They changed the way they hang the american flag in their dojang and followed the proper protocols for such. 

Now here it is, ten years later, and miguksaram makes a simple observation, and you respond in a different fashion. If you or your instructor wish to hang the flag in contradiction to american federal law, then that is your choice. no problem.


----------



## miguksaram

Twin Fist said:


> it isnt MY flag, so it isnt MY way of hanging it Hoss.



I know the flag in the video isn't yours, however, you did say 





			
				what you said said:
			
		

> thats how we hang the stars and stripes here


Still seems like you are getting upset over a small little observation.



> he isnt korean. Pretty sure i said that, leme see.
> 
> yep right there
> "_He is half white, and half korean on his mother's side. Army brat. American, doesnt speak a word of korean."_


Which is why I asked if you told him he was a 1/2 liar and thief....(the Korean half of course)


> so you again are being petty
> 
> sorry the truth makes your *** so sore.


How is it petty when I am simply restating what you wrote before...seems like you are the one with a bit of sand in the bum.


----------



## Twin Fist

i get it, i peed in your cheerios (didnt mean to but still) and you are picking at me over little crap cuz....well, thats all you got, little, petty crap

i was right and you are still butthurt over it.

let it go dude

you are just making yourself look small and petty.


----------



## Twin Fist

I hang mine horizontally, and I am not in the business of correcting my instructor.

sidebar:
there was a hatefest 10 years ago? 



puunui said:


> Ten years ago, during the USTU hate fest, some american borns were criticizing their korean born teachers and seniors for displaying the flag like how is shown in the video. Those americans cited to the United States Code (federal law) on the proper way to display the american flag. Their argument was that these Korean born seniors and teachers had no respect for the american flag, and by extension, had no respect for the US or americans. Some made a really big deal out of it. How did the korean born instructors respond? They changed the way they hang the american flag in their dojang and followed the proper protocols for such.
> 
> Now here it is, ten years later, and miguksaram makes a simple observation, and you respond in a different fashion. If you or your instructor wish to hang the flag in contradiction to american federal law, then that is your choice. no problem.


----------



## SahBumNimRush

puunui said:


> Because GM Kang is Kukkiwon certified, does that in any way make you to also desire kukkiwon certification for yourself and your students? What will happen when GM Kang is no longer around to certify you?



It is something that I have thought about, and honestly I'm still not sure exactly how I feel about it.  On the one hand, the Kukkiwon is the NGO of Korea, the birthplace of my art.  On the other hand, I do not practice the curriculum of the KKW.  I do not know the Taeguk Poomsae or any of the yudanja poomsae, which I assume is a requirement for certification.  I also do not know all of the terminology that is supported by the KKW.  For example we use the term Jassae for stance rather than Seogi (I believe that's what is used in KKW).  I know these are small differences, but it *almost* seems like I would be learning a new style to get myself up to speed for KKW certification.

  It was also my understanding that part of the reason the USTW was formed back in 1999 was to provide a path of certification for the "old school" dojangs that continued to teach the old kwan curricula.  Admittedly, the USTW fell prey to what most organizations do (internal political conflict), and it is now a much smaller organization.  However, if GM Kang and GM Ahn were founding members of an organization with such a vision, then the organization still holds weight to me.  

  KKW certification is still something that I contemplate, I'm just not exactly sure how I personally feel about it, or for that matter, how my KJN feels about it.  Something I shall have to ask him one of these days.. .


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> I hang mine horizontally, and I am not in the business of correcting my instructor.



I hang mine horizontally as well. And you could simply mention it politely to your instructor. Or not. I know I appreciate it when a student of mine or others politely mention things like that to me.




Twin Fist said:


> sidebar:
> there was a hatefest 10 years ago?



Yes there was.


----------



## miguksaram

Twin Fist said:


> i get it, i peed in your cheerios (didnt mean to but still) and you are picking at me over little crap cuz....well, thats all you got, little, petty crap


No actually did not pee in anything.  You are the one that blew my statement up about the flag, not me.  Your rantings about Koreans lying about the history remind me of the story of the two Buddhist monks and the lady. (indulge me)

An older monk and a disciple were walking to the temple when they came upon a very pretty lady who was having problems crossing the stream.  The head monk offered to carry the lady much to the protest of the disciple, who reminded him that it was not right for them to come in physical contact with females.  The older monk disregarded him and carried the lady across the stream. He put her down and she thanked him and the two monks walked.  A while had past and the disciple started ranting again how it was wrong for the older monk to do what he did and how he should have known better.  The older monk finally turned to the younger one said, I put that lady down a long time ago.  Why do you still carry her?

So I have to ask, the Koreans have since owned up to their past about TKD, so why are you so adamant about crying foul about the past even today?



> i was right and you are still butthurt over it.
> 
> let it go dude
> 
> you are just making yourself look small and petty.


They way you keep ranting about how horrible the Koreans are, it seems like you were the one who got bad touched by one of them.


----------



## miguksaram

puunui said:


> I hang mine horizontally as well. And you could simply mention it politely to your instructor. Or not. I know I appreciate it when a student of mine or others politely mention things like that to me.


I actually did mention it to my Korean GM before.  He smiled and said thanks and we changed it around.  You would be surprised but many Americans do not know the rule about hanging the flag correctly when they hang it vertically.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist said:


> , and I am not in the business of correcting my instructor.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> As memory serves I was on the recieving end of a certain amount of acrimony for suggesting that you ask your instructor a question.


----------



## Gnarlie




----------



## miguksaram

Hilarious )


----------



## puunui

I think blue is the winner.


----------



## puunui

SahBumNimRush said:


> It is something that I have thought about, and honestly I'm still not sure exactly how I feel about it.  On the one hand, the Kukkiwon is the NGO of Korea, the birthplace of my art.  On the other hand, I do not practice the curriculum of the KKW.  I do not know the Taeguk Poomsae or any of the yudanja poomsae, which I assume is a requirement for certification.  I also do not know all of the terminology that is supported by the KKW.  For example we use the term Jassae for stance rather than Seogi (I believe that's what is used in KKW).  I know these are small differences, but it *almost* seems like I would be learning a new style to get myself up to speed for KKW certification.




GM Kang I am assuming practices the same style that you do and he got Kukkiwon certification. Why can't you obtain the same for yourself and your students? If it is good enough for GM Kang, it is good enough for you and your lineage.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

SahBumNimRush said:


> It is something that I have thought about, and honestly I'm still not sure exactly how I feel about it.  On the one hand, the Kukkiwon is the NGO of Korea, the birthplace of my art.  On the other hand, I do not practice the curriculum of the KKW.  I do not know the Taeguk Poomsae or any of the yudanja poomsae, which I assume is a requirement for certification.  I also do not know all of the terminology that is supported by the KKW.  For example we use the term Jassae for stance rather than Seogi (I believe that's what is used in KKW).  I know these are small differences, but it *almost* seems like I would be learning a new style to get myself up to speed for KKW certification.
> 
> It was also my understanding that part of the reason the USTW was formed back in 1999 was to provide a path of certification for the "old school" dojangs that continued to teach the old kwan curricula.  Admittedly, the USTW fell prey to what most organizations do (internal political conflict), and it is now a much smaller organization.  However, if GM Kang and GM Ahn were founding members of an organization with such a vision, then the organization still holds weight to me.
> 
> KKW certification is still something that I contemplate, I'm just not exactly sure how I personally feel about it, or for that matter, how my KJN feels about it.  Something I shall have to ask him one of these days.. .


I am in the same boat. My GM has kukkiwon certification from years ago but has since distanced the club from the kukkiwon. I dont feel the need for a kukkiwon cert because I dont know the kukkiwon curriculum so it would seem a little odd having certification for something I dont know. I remember when I was younger my shotokan instructor held black belts in both shotokan and aikido, but had a shotokan school. Each time I was promoted I didnt expect certs for both arts because I was only learning shotokan so I wasnt going to ask for rank in aikido. Thats how I view my tkd, just because once upon a time my GM taught kukkiwon tkd doesnt mean now 20 years on teaching something different he should hand out kukkiwon certs just because he can, even though its not what he teaches now.


----------



## Twin Fist

so hard to call points whenthey wont stop swinging.....
QUOTE=Gnarlie;1454428]
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/QUOTE]


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> so hard to call points whenthey wont stop swinging....



WTF rules allow for continuous sparring. No calling of points in the middle of the round. Blue has the better stance as well. I don't think red lands a single shot.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> The shotokan karate of FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei, who was GM LEE Won Kuk's teacher, was more focused on weight transfer than merely hip twist. Yoshitaka Sensei put his whole body into his techniques, which was passed on to the students of the Chung Do Kwan. An example of this can be found in the kukkiwon poomsae hansu, in those three punches in the beginning.



When I was young and trained in Isshin Ryu, I remember an emphasis on hip movement, it stood out because in boxing, they told us to turn our hips and shoulders to make more power. I remember the seniors in class had this explosive and spring back action movement to their hips, all in high narrow stance. Years later I trained with guys from a Shotokan group, from Okazaki Sensei I believe, and they really worked the lunging weight forward thing.  What a drastic difference between the two.


----------



## mastercole

miguksaram said:


> which is why i asked if you told him he was a 1/2 liar and thief....(the korean half of course)



roflma!


----------



## mastercole

SahBumNimRush said:


> It is something that I have thought about, and honestly I'm still not sure exactly how I feel about it.  On the one hand, the Kukkiwon is the NGO of Korea, the birthplace of my art.  On the other hand, I do not practice the curriculum of the KKW.  I do not know the Taeguk Poomsae or any of the yudanja poomsae, which I assume is a requirement for certification.  I also do not know all of the terminology that is supported by the KKW.  For example we use the term Jassae for stance rather than Seogi (I believe that's what is used in KKW).  I know these are small differences, but it *almost* seems like I would be learning a new style to get myself up to speed for KKW certification.
> 
> It was also my understanding that part of the reason the USTW was formed back in 1999 was to provide a path of certification for the "old school" dojangs that continued to teach the old kwan curricula.  Admittedly, the USTW fell prey to what most organizations do (internal political conflict), and it is now a much smaller organization.  However, if GM Kang and GM Ahn were founding members of an organization with such a vision, then the organization still holds weight to me.
> 
> KKW certification is still something that I contemplate, I'm just not exactly sure how I personally feel about it, or for that matter, how my KJN feels about it.  Something I shall have to ask him one of these days.. .



When you say pre-Kukkiwon curriculum I assume you mean a curriculum from some point in time of the old Taekwondo Moodukkwan. or maybe the older Tang Soo Do Moodukkwan?  Do you and your students apply for certification through Soobahkdo Moodukkwan, Korea  ---  or Taekwondo Moodukkwan, Korea?

I know GM Ahn changed over to Kukkiwon style from Tang Soo Do back in the 70's, but he still received his 9th Dan from Taekwondo Moodukkwan, in addition to Kukkiwon.


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


> I know GM Ahn changed over to Kukkiwon style from Tang Soo Do back in the 70's, but he still received his 9th Dan from Taekwondo Moodukkwan, in addition to Kukkiwon.



I think GM LEE Chong Woo promoted GM Ahn to Kukkiwon 9th Dan, back when all the seniors were getting that around 1990 or so.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> I think GM LEE Chong Woo promoted GM Ahn to Kukkiwon 9th Dan, back when all the seniors were getting that around 1990 or so.



I remember seeing GM Ahn's name next to GM Ahn, Dae Sup's name in the Kukkiwon Dan register you sent me.  GM Sok Ho Kang's name was also in there.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist said:


> at any rate, i have made my point, and been proven correct in my assertions.



Well, perhaps correct with regar to certain segments of the TKD world. I think the iisue with your statements were that they painted all Koreans with too broad a brush. 

"Twin Fist:
the TRUE origin of TKD is OTHER arts, (primarily but not limited to shotokan) renamed and given a fake history for the sake of nationalism

refute THAT 

those are the only two assertions i have made, and niether has been refuted.

The Palgwe's came later, and most credit them with being the first original set of forms

the taeguks even later

the first forms? were mostly japense forms lifted whole from japanese arts"

As I quoted from General Choi's book this was not hidden, in fact it was explicitly disclosed.  Yet you called him the biggest thief. 

Would be pretty silly for me to refute that which was explicitly disclosed by this Korean.  

Do you still consider him to be a thief now being aware of the disclosures and giving credit to those who preceeded him?


----------



## SahBumNimRush

mastercole said:


> When you say pre-Kukkiwon curriculum I assume you mean a curriculum from some point in time of the old Taekwondo Moodukkwan. or maybe the older Tang Soo Do Moodukkwan?  Do you and your students apply for certification through Soobahkdo Moodukkwan, Korea  ---  or Taekwondo Moodukkwan, Korea?
> 
> I know GM Ahn changed over to Kukkiwon style from Tang Soo Do back in the 70's, but he still received his 9th Dan from *Taekwondo Moodukkwan*, in addition to Kukkiwon.




I know that my KJN is ranked in both the Taekwondo Moodukkwan and Kukkiwon.  I remember seeing a black belt certificate with Soo Bahk Do on it in his office a long time ago, as well.  

Our certificates are signed at the bottom: 

 Sok Ho Kang, President
Korea Tae Kwon Do Association
Moo Duk Kwan 
West Virginia

To be totally honest, I don't know much about what function the KTA really has anymore, or what relationship there is/was between the KTA and Taekwondo MooDukKwan, but that is what is at the bottom of our certificate.


----------



## Twin Fist

Earl, when was that book written again? cus the lies about the origins of TKD started with it's founding and continue to this day by the KKW and many others.

if, as you claim choi was honest about the origins of his martial arts knowledge, then good for him. Glad not everyone is guilty of adding to the BS.




Earl Weiss said:


> As I quoted from General Choi's book this was not hidden, in fact it was explicitly disclosed.  Yet you called him the biggest thief.
> 
> Would be pretty silly for me to refute that which was explicitly disclosed by this Korean.
> 
> Do you still consider him to be a thief now being aware of the disclosures and giving credit to those who preceeded him?


----------



## SahBumNimRush

Rather than hijacking this thread, I have started a thread on the certifcation questions between Puunui, Master Cole and myself here:  http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?100790-Certification&p=1454550#post1454550


----------



## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist said:


> Earl, when was that book written again? cus the lies about the origins of TKD started with it's founding and continue to this day by the KKW and many others.
> 
> if, as you claim choi was honest about the origins of his martial arts knowledge, then good for him. Glad not everyone is guilty of adding to the BS.



That book contains a publication date of 1965. It is (I believe) the first book in English about TKD. It seems to be the english edition of a Korean text which is referred to as being published in 1959. I have not seen the 1959 Text, nor do I read Korean so I could not tell you if it was the same or different.  Perhaps someone else on this board (Glenn?) has the Korean edition and could read it. 

So, I agree that there is plenty of B.S. out there about the age / origins of TKD, I think  what General Choi wrote (Which I do not believe was meant to be a thorough dissertation) disclosed the roots and foundations.


----------



## oftheherd1

Twin Fist said:


> well, i just wanted to make sure that I had my definitions correct.
> 
> Since, I have said, and I truly believe that TKD's "official" origin is a matter of theft and lies.
> 
> Koreans took Shotokan, claimed it was something else, and gave it a new name
> 
> thats theft
> 
> and in calling it something else, and then making up some myth about 3000 year old dynasties and some other crappola,
> 
> thats lying
> 
> *I am not aware that the Koreans make any claims about 3000 year old dynasties. They do claim something around or a little over 2000 years of recorded history. I also once read that there the Chinese had recorded something about 4000 years ago about the Korean penensula. Exactly what, I don't know. The Koreans, from at least the Three Kingdom Era, record combat amonst themselves, and against China. Much of that was armed combat with the weapons of the day, but it had to include some unarmed combat for those times you suddenly became weaponless, if for no other reason.
> *
> hapkido? thats nothing but stolen/renamed aikido with some kicks added in
> 
> *As has already been pointed out, that is utter nonsense. And since you ask, the history of Hapkido is well known to have come to Korea from GM Choi, after WWII. Anyone who says otherwise, is mistaken, or in fact as you say, being dishonest.
> *
> whats the korean judo? and the korean version of kendo?
> 
> *I personally know next to nothing about Korean Judo. I know my GM had studied it at one time, nearly acheiving BB (an injury prevented it). Gangsters or gangster wannabees used to study Judo, but never belt in it according to the newspapers when I was there. They used to talk about fights by Judo school dropouts, referring to them. Why they chose to be associated with Judo I have no idea, since it is a legitimate art. Perhaps because there is no real Korean art similar to Judo, and Judo is clearly Japanese. As I said, I don't know.
> *
> korean martial arts are in large part, the result of theft and lies.
> 
> *Maybe you have elsewhere, but that really needs clarification to have validity. You are painting with a very broad brush sir.
> *
> now this isnt unique to korea
> 
> and it is, in this day and age, 50 years after the thefts more or less irrelevant, partiuarly when the arts have grown into thier own unique entities
> 
> *In which case, if they have correctly stated their borrowing from Chinese or Japanese arts, and changed it to what they like better, how is that theft?  And how would you classify any knowledge or technique that was in Korea for several centuries, as to it being Korean or Chinese?
> *
> but it is an accurate statement, IMO



I haven't, because I don't have time right now, to read 12 pages of thread. But the above are some of my thoughts. I am well aware that some MA practitioners in many different MA try to show a very ancient lineage. In the far east, that is because the older something is, the more it is to be venerated. When those who do so do it with full knowledge they are wrong in what they say, I think you can make a case for them telling lies.

I am also quite curious, if it hasn't already been asked, since TKD is one of your arts, why are you so angry at TKD? Have some teachers disrespected you personally in some way? Do you not think TKD has any value? Is there no possibility that some things known from older Korean times made their way into TKD? As to kicking, do you see other Korean, Chinese, or Japanese MA using kicks as often as TKD?

Just curious.


----------



## Twin Fist

i am hostile towards liars

if they are honest about the origins of the arts, hey, i have no problem with them.

i think real TKD, the self defense oriented lethal killing art of TKD is very valuable. I have NO use for the direction korea the KKW and WTF is pushing TKD, the sport side of it. I find it worse than useless, i think it is actually HARMING martial arts, and the reputation of not only korean martial arts, but ALL martial arts.

one org teaches cheese, everyone else looks cheesy

ONE guy lies, it makes everyone else less trustworthy by association


----------



## Twin Fist

so earl,
IF, as you suggest, Choi was telling the truth about the japanese origins of the korean martial arts, how does that reconcile with the KKW putting out a false history?




Earl Weiss said:


> That book contains a publication date of 1965. It is (I believe) the first book in English about TKD. It seems to be the english edition of a Korean text which is referred to as being published in 1959. I have not seen the 1959 Text, nor do I read Korean so I could not tell you if it was the same or different.  Perhaps someone else on this board (Glenn?) has the Korean edition and could read it.
> 
> So, I agree that there is plenty of B.S. out there about the age / origins of TKD, I think  what General Choi wrote (Which I do not believe was meant to be a thorough dissertation) disclosed the roots and foundations.


----------



## RobinTKD

Twin Fist said:


> so earl,
> IF, as you suggest, Choi was telling the truth about the japanese origins of the korean martial arts, how does that reconcile with the KKW putting out a false history?



If Mr. Weiss doesn't mind me answering for him, it doesn't, but then Gen. Choi was never part of the KKW. I agree that the lies shouldn't be there if they are there, but it's important to remember that the truth is subjective, and it can be interpreted in different ways by different people. The point a lot of people are making is that TKD's roots can go back centuries, Korea, like most countries has a long history of violent conflicts both internal and external, It'd be foolish to think that some kind of fighting system (both armed and unarmed) didn't exist back then.


----------



## Twin Fist

no, the truth is NOT subjective

tkd is NOT 2000 years old

there is no wiggle room in that

it IS based on shotokan

there is no wiggle room in that either

there is nothing subjective about the history of TKD

there was OF COURSE a fighting art in ancient korea

BUT

it was DEAD before the end of ww2, no living masters teaching it, a DEAD art

TKD was created post ww2, it has no roots prior to that other than from the source arts, the primary of which (but not only) is JAPANESE shotokan karate.

this is objective fact.

in effect, using your logic, i could say that the "roots" of english are summarian and babalonian, since they are both spoken languages.


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> tkd is NOT 2000 years old
> 
> there is no wiggle room in that




How old is taekkyon, in your opinion?


----------



## Bob Hubbard

puunui said:


> How old is taekkyon, in your opinion?






> *Taekkyeon* is a traditional Korean martial art with a dance-like appearance in some aspects. A Goguryeo mural painting at the Samsil tomb shows Taekkyeon was practiced as early as the Three Kingdoms Era and transmitted from Goguryeo to Shilla.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP] The earliest existing written source mentioning Taekkyeon is the book _Manmulmo_ (also _Jaemulmo_), written around 1790 by Lee, Sung-Ji.[SUP][3][/SUP] Taekkyeon is also frequently romanized informally as *Taekkyon* or *Taekyon*.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekkyeon



> The  book Manmulbo (or:  Jaemulbo), written by Sung-Ji Lee around 1790, is probably the first  source                                      to mention this Korean art. Other  sources claim                                      that Koryusa (Korean history book  written in 15th century)                                      is mentioning the art to be "widely  encouraged and practiced from the king himself to farmers".​ The                                      martial art/sport is said stemming from                                      subak, and it may be one of the forerunner                                      to the modern art of taekwondo (Japanese                                      karate is one of the major influences here).                                      Many exponents of the art claim that                                      it has nothing to do with taekwondo.​


http://www.your-martial-arts-resources.com/taekkyon.html


----------



## Twin Fist

puunui said:


> How old is taekkyon, in your opinion?


1) irrelevant since it has nothing to do with TKD
2) again, modern takkyon is a recreated art, there is no line going back any further than the end of WW2, other than song duk ki, and his story cant be verified. and in any case, he is dead.

regardlessof what existed in ancient korea, korean martial arts are pretty much all post ww2 creations, inspired by history no doubt, but not connected to it.

this really cant be proven of course, but teh evidence IS there


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> 1) irrelevant since it has nothing to do with TKD
> 2) again, modern takkyon is a recreated art, there is no line going back any further than the end of WW2, other than song duk ki, and his story cant be verified. and in any case, he is dead.




Actually it was a trick question, because I don't think anyone really knows how old taekkyon is. My understanding is that taekkyon was practiced mainly in rural areas by rural, often times uneducated people. It was not something that educated people who could read and write did. Therefore there is little or no reference of it in books. it would be like trying to look up the history of cow tipping in the US. What scholarly work was done on that topic? mastercole, as the only certified taekkyon master in the US, is better equipped to answer or respond than I am.


----------



## elder999

puunui;[URL="tel:1454645" said:
			
		

> 1454645[/URL]] it would be like trying to look up the history of cow tipping in the US. What scholarly work was done on that topic?.



Actually, only horses regularly sleep standing up, because of the way that their knees lock. Cows do not-they lie down fairly regularly-in a variety of positions not unlike those dogs take when they are sleeping. It is also structurally impossible for a single person to tip over a full grown cow.

All of this information is the result of _several scholarly works that prove that_ *cow-tipping is a myth*.......much like the ancient origins of tae kwon do. :lfao:


----------



## puunui

elder999 said:


> All of this information is the result of _several scholarly works that prove that_ *cow-tipping is a myth*.......much like the ancient origins of tae kwon do.



I love it when non-taekwondoin tell us the history of our own art.


----------



## elder999

puunui;[URL="tel:1454653" said:
			
		

> 1454653[/URL]]I love it when non-taekwondoin tell us the history of our own art.



Clearly, no-*you don't.* :lfao:


(Not my fault you picked a mythologial, non-existent practice for your simile...:lfao: )


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> 1) regardlessof what existed in ancient korea, korean martial arts are pretty much all post ww2 creations, inspired by history no doubt, but not connected to it. this really cant be proven of course, but teh evidence IS there



Well, at least you are coming down from the certainty of your previous posts. And I would also say inspired by history and culture. Like I have said before, in the US, if two kids fight, they put up their hands like boxers or wrestle, even if they have no formal training in boxing or wrestling. In korea, two kids fight, and they start throwing kicks at each other. Where does that come from? Shotokan? I don't think so. But all of this really doesn't matter. If you feel the pioneers of taekwondo, or the kukkiwon or wtf are "lying", then you are free to say that. go for it, and see if that makes taekwondo any less popular. 

Personally, I think taekwondo is a beautiful thing, a marvelous creation worth a lifetime of study. I believe you think that too, otherwise you wouldn't be studying it for as long as you have. There are enough non-taekwondoin out there who will shout from the top of the mountain about how screwed up taekwondo is. Taekwondo is about unification and working with one another and helping each other get to a better place. It is not about taekwondoin making other taekwondoin feel bad about their art. Let's leave that job to the non-taekwondo practitioners out there.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist said:


> so earl,
> IF, as you suggest, Choi was telling the truth about the japanese origins of the korean martial arts, how does that reconcile with the KKW putting out a false history?



Well, since I am not a KKW guy, and since there was no love lost between the General Choi group and the KKW group I am not sure why you think I would want to reconcile what the KKW has done vis a vis a false history.  I will leave that to the KKW people.


----------



## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> Well, since I am not a KKW guy




I disagree. I think you are a kukkiwon guy, but just haven't realized it yet.


----------



## puunui

RobinTKD said:


> If Mr. Weiss doesn't mind me answering for him, it doesn't, but then Gen. Choi was never part of the KKW.




Maybe not, but the Oh Do Kwan certainly was, and is. In fact, when the new poomsae were being created, the Oh Do Kwan Jang, GM HYUN Jong Myung was a member of the committee. So the Chang Hon tul are incorporated into the Kukkiwon poomsae.


----------



## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> there was no love lost between the General Choi group and the KKW group




But just because General Choi did not get along with the kwan jang doesn't mean that ITF members have to be at odds with kukki taekwondo practitioners. Remember last summer when you came to the US Open Hanmadang and we had dinner with the referees? We were all from different parts of the country, from different kwan, different teachers, but yet, there we were, sharing a meal and having a good time. That to me is what taekwondo is all about and it is why I say you are a KKW guy but just don't know it yet. You fit right in, and no one treated you any different.


----------



## elder999

puunui;[URL="tel:1454660" said:
			
		

> 1454660[/URL]]Maybe not, but the Oh Do Kwan certainly was, and is. In fact, when the new poomsae were being created, the Oh Do Kwan Jang, GM HYUN Jong Myung was a member of the committee. So the Chang Hon tul are incorporated into the Kukkiwon poomsae.



Only.:lol:..without........:lol:,,,,,:lfao:......the.:lfao:.the.:lfao:._*"sine wave"*_...:lfao:


----------



## puunui

elder999 said:


> Only.:lol:..without........:lol:,,,,,:lfao:......the.:lfao:.the.:lfao:._*"sine wave"*_...:lfao:



sine wave wasn't developed when the kukkiwon poomsae were created. So course it wasn't included.


----------



## RobinTKD

puunui said:


> But just because General Choi did not get along with the kwan jang doesn't mean that ITF members have to be at odds with kukki taekwondo practitioners. Remember last summer when you came to the US Open Hanmadang and we had dinner with the referees? We were all from different parts of the country, from different kwan, different teachers, but yet, there we were, sharing a meal and having a good time. That to me is what taekwondo is all about and it is why I say you are a KKW guy but just don't know it yet. You fit right in, and no one treated you any different.



Isn't this how all Taekwondo should be? I'd love to see the ITF and KKW reconciled, but god knows I'd have no idea how to do it. You'd have to take equal amounts from both syllabus's and create something completely new. Otherwise I'd like to see official ITF sparring become full contact, or WTF shihap kyorugi start incorporating more hand techniques (not to say they should start boxing, but to at least have hand techniques used not just as a counter.)


----------



## RobinTKD

elder999 said:


> Only.:lol:..without........:lol:,,,,,:lfao:......the.:lfao:.the.:lfao:._*"sine wave"*_...:lfao:



I still don't understand peoples problem with the sine wave. Also, I take back my original statement, Twin Fist isn't the troll, you are, at least he is initializing a debate, not just useless snide remarks.


----------



## elder999

RobinTKD;[URL="tel:1454665" said:
			
		

> 1454665[/URL]]I still don't understand peoples problem with the sine wave. Also, I take back my original statement, Twin Fist isn't the troll, you are, at least he is initializing a debate, not just useless snide remarks.



You know, I offered what  Ihad for this "debate" with this post(11 pages ago, and I don't know how many pages before you entered.....):



			
				elder999;[URL="tel:1453991" said:
			
		

> 1453991[/URL]]A funny story, actually: I trained in Duk Sung Son's Chung Do Kwan *and*  kyokushin karate at the same time.I stared in Duk Sung Son's "Korean  Karate" when I was 11. When I was 13 I went to boarding school, where no  form of tae kwon do was availabl, but there was kyokushin instruction.  When I started that, I found, much to my surprise, that the Pyung Ahns  of Tae Kwon Do and the Pinans of kyokushin (which were from Oyama  Sosai's study of Shotokan directly under Funakoshi) were almost  identical. I'd go home for vacations and practice with my tae kwon do  class, and go back to school and practice kyokushin-with both of my  teachers being completely aware of it. Eventually I wound up choosing  one art, but-at the time-neither teacher could definitively say why they  had such similar kata. Of course, later it became clear that it was  what you've obviously overstated here, and MAist25 has added historical  perspective to .For me, the Kyokushin instruction was better quality,  and had bunkai that made more sense of the kata-though both of them had  diverged a bit from the original Shotokan kata(for best results, start  the lower, Korean version first, then immediately start the Japanese  version):



And it was mostly ignored.....

The snide remarks aren't useless-they make me laugh.


:lfao:

See?


----------



## Thesemindz

It seems clear to me that after WWII a small number of martial arts Masters, mostly in Japanese and Chinese styles of martial arts, united to create a national sport to promote Korean nationalism and called that art Taekwondo, and used purported similarities to ancient cultures which inhabited the same general piece of land to try to give that NEW art some air of credibility.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I was at a seminar recently where a Taekwondo instructor told us that TKD was the direct continuation of the practices of Silla empire warriors and that the origin of the movements contained within the forms came _specifically_ from the practices of those warriors while riding their horses long distances to battle lines. 

I think there's something wrong with that.

I don't see anything wrong with admitting that the current way that you organize and teach combat techniques is a relatively modern invention. Karate gets "reinvented" all the time. Takahara taught Chuan-Fa, his student Sakukawa taught Te, his student Sokon practiced Shuri-Te, his student Itosu taught Shorin-Ryu, his student Funakoshi taught Shotokan. IT'S THE SAME THING. Or is it? It's each successive instructor's interpretation of that thing, and what makes it legitimate is whether it works and if someone else chooses to pick it up and run with it.

I practice kenpo, from Master Parker's lineage. It was created around the same time as TKD. That doesn't bother me. I don't need to point out that some of the same techniques were being taught hundreds, and possibly even _thousands_ of years ago. My kenpo works. That's what matters.

I think when instructors are feeding their students a straight line of "TKD = Silla empire practices" they are doing a disservice to and yes, _lying_, to those students. Students who will then go out and repeat that crap and either make fools of themselves or pollute the minds of others. But I don't think there's anything wrong with saying, "some people who used to live here used to kick people too." Fine. Does your TKD work on the floor? That's what really matters.

On a separate note, bunkai isn't just "made up," and it isn't about "reverse engineering" or "figuring it out." It's the specific application of specific techniques and it's supposed to be _taught._ If your instructor isn't teaching you, he's either deliberately withholding information from you, or he doesn't have that information. Which is fine, but shouldn't be used to vilify instructors who actually _do_ know what they are talking about. When I was learning TKD as a child I asked my instructor what the movements in the form were for and he told me "because they look cool." ERRRRR. Wrong answer. I have since learned the actual applications for those movements. From more knowledgeable instructors of course. Just because he didn't know what the movements meant doesn't mean they didn't mean anything. It just means _he didn't know what he was talking about._


-Rob


----------



## puunui

Thesemindz said:


> When I was learning TKD as a child I asked my instructor what the movements in the form were for and he told me "because they look cool." ERRRRR. Wrong answer. I have since learned the actual applications for those movements. From more knowledgeable instructors of course. Just because he didn't know what they were doesn't mean they weren't there. It just means _he didn't know what he was talking about._



Either that, or he was giving you the child's answer, since you were a child when you asked.


----------



## Thesemindz

puunui said:


> Either that, or he was giving you the child's answer, since you were a child when you asked.



Perhaps. Perhaps he underestimated the child he was working with.


-Rob


----------



## mastercole

RobinTKD said:


> If Mr. Weiss doesn't mind me answering for him, it doesn't, but then Gen. Choi was never part of the KKW. I agree that the lies shouldn't be there if they are there, but it's important to remember that the truth is subjective, and it can be interpreted in different ways by different people. The point a lot of people are making is that TKD's roots can go back centuries, Korea, like most countries has a long history of violent conflicts both internal and external, It'd be foolish to think that some kind of fighting system (both armed and unarmed) didn't exist back then.



Not true. General Choi was a part of the Kukkiwon. 

The Kukkiwon was originally named the "Korea Taekwondo Associaiton Central Gymnaisum" and even after the KTA changed the name, the Gym did not become completely independent from the KTA unitl April 5, 1980.

CHOI Hong Hi lead the naming committee that submitted the name "Taekwondo".  He was also President and founding member of the Korea Taekwondo Association. The KTA already had the "Korea Taekwondo Association Central Gymnasium" established, at an earlier location. They built a new building and moved it there. Later they changed the name to Kukkiwon.


----------



## Twin Fist

RobinTKD said:


> I still don't understand peoples problem with the sine wave.



cuz it looks retarded, doesnt develop any additional power, creates sloppy movement, looks like an epileptic, is nearly impossible to do RIGHT, and reeks of a desperate attempt by Choi to make himself relevant by creating some supposedly "breakthrough" in training.......

IMO


----------



## puunui

elder999 said:


> Clearly, no-*you don't.* :lfao:



No I do. Feel free to tell us the history of korean martial arts at anytime. By the way, GM LEE Won Kuk, the founder of the Chung Do Kwan, told me stories about Oyama Sensei when he visited Korea during the 1940's. So the connection between GM Son and Oyama Sensei might be a lot closer than you think.


----------



## puunui

RobinTKD said:


> Isn't this how all Taekwondo should be? I'd love to see the ITF and KKW reconciled, but god knows I'd have no idea how to do it. You'd have to take equal amounts from both syllabus's and create something completely new. Otherwise I'd like to see official ITF sparring become full contact, or WTF shihap kyorugi start incorporating more hand techniques (not to say they should start boxing, but to at least have hand techniques used not just as a counter.)




I do not believe it is the proper time to get into specifics about that sort of thing. I would simply let more time pass. I will say that more and more ITF and ATA practitioners are assimilating into kukki taekwondo. Before the new Kukkiwon president took office, I and others were working on a deal to convert 6000 former ATA black belts in several countries to kukkiwon certification. That is the kind of activity I like to be involved in, not arguing about whether or not someone deserves a kukkiwon 1st dan if they don't know taeguek 1 jang. Imagine how many lives are affected if we make something like that happen.


----------



## elder999

puunui said:


> No I do. Feel free to tell us the history of korean martial arts at anytime. By the way, GM LEE Won Kuk, the founder of the Chung Do Kwan, told me stories about Oyama Sensei when he visited Korea during the 1940's. So the connection between GM Son and Oyama Sensei might be a lot closer than you think.



Oyama Sosai studied with a lot of people. There was quite a fair amount of cross-pollination in the creation of Kyokushin. All of this is a matter of official record. The "official record" on taekwondo, though?

From the WTF website:



> However, the Japanese colonial government totally prohibited all folkloric games including Taekkyon in the process of suppressing the Korean people. The martial art Taekkyon [Taekwondo] had been secretly handed down only by the masters of the art until the liberation of the country in 1945. Song Duk-Ki, one of the then masters testifies that his master was Im Ho who was reputed for his excellent skills of Taekkyon, "jumping over the walls and running through the wood just like a tiger." (explanation of taekkon techniques in muyedobo-tongji (general illustrations of techniques) (scene of contest).



and:



> Upon liberation of Korea from the Japanese colonial rule after World War II, the Korean people began recovering the thought of self-reliance and the traditional folkloric games resumed their popularity. Song Duk-Ki, afore-mentioned master of Taekkyon, presented a demonstration of the martial art before the first republic of Korea president Syngman Rhee on the occasion of his birthday, *clearly distinguishing Taekwondo from the Japanese Karate which had been introduced by the Japanese *




Now, how do you  reconcile the above "official history" with what is clearly known, and demonstrated in my post on page 2?


----------



## Twin Fist

and thats that

thats why i will NEVER join the KKW, they are liars putting out lies


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> sine wave wasn't developed when the kukkiwon poomsae were created. So course it wasn't included.



Master Weiss, when was the sine wave added.  What is the history of that?


----------



## mastercole

RobinTKD said:


> Isn't this how all Taekwondo should be? I'd love to see the ITF and KKW reconciled, but god knows I'd have no idea how to do it. You'd have to take equal amounts from both syllabus's and create something completely new. Otherwise I'd like to see official ITF sparring become full contact, or WTF shihap kyorugi start incorporating more hand techniques (not to say they should start boxing, but to at least have hand techniques used not just as a counter.)



The Oh Do Kwan style (ITF) already merged into the Kukkiwon. A part of it decided to separate and go to Canada, that was the CHOI Hong Hi part. That mass majority stayed in Korea, in the Oh Do Kwan and support the KTA, it's central gym the Kukkiwon, and the later WTF.


----------



## mastercole

elder999 said:


> Only.:lol:..without........:lol:,,,,,:lfao:......the.:lfao:.the.:lfao:._*"sine wave"*_...:lfao:



You did not know that CHOI Hong Hi, your instructors arch nemesis, introduced the sine wave AFTER the ITF assisted with the creation of the Kukkiwon Poomsae?


----------



## mastercole

elder999 said:


> You know, I offered what  Ihad for this "debate" with this post(11 pages ago, and I don't know how many pages before you entered.....):
> 
> 
> 
> And it was mostly ignored.....
> 
> The snide remarks aren't useless-they make me laugh.
> 
> 
> :lfao:
> 
> See?



I don't get it?  The first video guy is doing Mas Oyama style, the second guy looks like old Moodukkwan style.  What am I missing in regard to the sine wave?


----------



## puunui

elder999 said:


> Oyama Sosai studied with a lot of people. There was quite a fair amount of cross-pollination in the creation of Kyokushin. All of this is a matter of official record.



Does the Kyokushin official record mention Oyama Sosai studying with GM LEE Won Kuk or members of the Chung Do Kwan? If so, what does the official record say about that? 




elder999 said:


> Now, how do you  reconcile the above "official history" with what is clearly known, and demonstrated in my post on page 2?



I already explained it in an earlier post, which I believe is in this thread. Basically, the WTF webpage is discussing the emphasis on kicking in a competition format which comes from Taekkyon, while you and others are ignoring that and concentrating solely upon forms, which until recently was not a part of the WTF and still not part of Olympic taekwondo. The WTF is the International Federation for Taekwondo for the International Olympic Committee, and your quote from the WTF webpage attempts to explain that aspect of taekwondo. Or am I wrong and shotokan developed a competition based on full contact kicking to the body and head in the 1940's or before? If not, where did that come from? Answer: Not from Shotokan.


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


> I don't get it?  The first video guy is doing Mas Oyama style, the second guy looks like old Moodukkwan style.  What am I missing in regard to the sine wave?



I think his point is the taekwondo comes from shotokan (and shotokan only) because of that form. Which of course ignores the korean cultural aspects of taekwondo, including but not limited to emphasizing kicking over punching in a physical encounter. So once again, those in the "taekwondo is shotokan" camp argue that taekwondo is shotokan because of those forms, while those attempting to explain taekwondo's emphasis on kicking focus on korean culture and its long history. The analogy I gave was that that the "shotokan is taekwondo" people are like blind men, feeling the trunk of an elephant and exclaiming to the whole world that an elephant is really a snake. I guess if you narrowly concentrate on the elephant's trunk, then that might seem to be true, but we have eyes and can the elephant as a whole, which doesn't look like a snake at all. And when we say that an elephant is not a snake, some people feel the need to call us liars. 

that is the cliffnotes summary of this thread.


----------



## Twin Fist

i guess i MIGHT be blind but that kata is MOVE FOR MOVE the same and it was in a japanese style FIRST. 

thats makes the korean version STOLEN since they dont give credit


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> i guess i MIGHT be blind but that kata is MOVE FOR MOVE the same and it was in a japanese style FIRST.




But that is like feeling the trunk of an elephant, it is not the whole of taekwondo, anymore than the trunk is the whole of the elephant.


----------



## mastercole

elder999 said:


> From the WTF website:
> 
> 
> 
> However, the Japanese colonial government totally prohibited all folkloric games including Taekkyon in the process of suppressing the Korean people. The martial art Taekkyon [Taekwondo] had been secretly handed down only by the masters of the art until the liberation of the country in 1945. Song Duk-Ki, one of the then masters testifies that his master was Im Ho who was reputed for his excellent skills of Taekkyon, "jumping over the walls and running through the wood just like a tiger." (explanation of taekkon techniques in muyedobo-tongji (general illustrations of techniques) (scene of contest).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and:
> 
> 
> Upon liberation of Korea from the Japanese colonial rule after World War II, the Korean people began recovering the thought of self-reliance and the traditional folkloric games resumed their popularity. Song Duk-Ki, afore-mentioned master of Taekkyon, presented a demonstration of the martial art before the first republic of Korea president Syngman Rhee on the occasion of his birthday, *clearly distinguishing Taekwondo from the Japanese Karate which had been introduced by the Japanese*
> 
> 
> Now, how do you reconcile the above "official history" with what is clearly known, and demonstrated in my post on page 2?
> [/COLOR]



Officials of the KTA, Kukkiwon and the WTF have stated, in writing that Taekwondo descends from multiple lines of martial arts lineage.  Karate & Chuanfa being the most organized lines, and Taekkyon being the natural and indigenous line. From my many trips to Korea to specifically study Taekwondo, it's history and it's relation to Karate, Chuanfa and Taekkyon, I see no conflict. But maybe some of you and your exhaustive and extensive research surpasses my own. I would be interested in seeing the details of your findings.

What Glenn comparison of punching and wrestling being natural in western society, and kicking being natural in Korean society is correct.  Korean people developed a natural use of their legs over millenia, walking up and down mountainous areas, daily.  Korean people have a natural feel for using their legs in ways Westerners do not normal find natural. This is the root of Taekkyon.  Taekkyon was a generic, Korean villager name for kicking, that is what it means in pure Korean, with no Hanja, it means simply kicking.  There were two regions around Seoul that had groups who did focused training in Taekkyon in preparation for the Tanho Festival, there were no formalized dojangs, or even formalized training. It was a bunch of village guys who got together and traded techniques that were used successfully in the Taekkyon competition at last years festival.  Those two regions of Seoul were called Woodae and Araedae.  Those two groups were the two main rival groups at the Tanho Festival.  Other competitions also took place at that festival, not just martial arts like Taekkyon and Ssiruum.  The Tanho Festival continues to this day.

GM SONG Duk Ki was from Woodae and trained in the stable of IM Ho.  What we know today of Taekkyon, 99% of it comes from GM Song. Taekkyon of today is not a modern creation, it is trained in a modern format, and organized in a modern structure to assist it's preservation and growth.  The skills of Taekkyon today all descend directly from GM Song.  GM Song had/has several dedicated students, some who started training with him as complete beginners, and some who came to him as experienced martial artist.  A few of these students made a great effort to record everything that GM Song could teach them, which was a lot. However, GM Song stated to his scholarly disciples that he did not remember all of the skills or names of some skills that he had learned. There were also skills that GM Song remembered, but forgot their application. These scholarly students wrote it all done and created curriculum so that it could be saved. 

One of GM Songs disciples, GM SHIN Han Seung, presented a collection of curriculum to the Korean Minister of Culture who after a study on the subject designated Taekkyon as an Intangible Cultural Asset of Korea. Recently the United Nations division UNESCO reviewed the validity of Taekkyon as an Intangible Cultural Asset of Humanity, awarded Taekkyon this official designation from UNESCO, making Taekkyon the first and only martial art in the world to get this qualification.

*'Taekkyon,' 'tightrope walking' added to UNESCO intangible heritage list*
SEOUL, Nov. 28 (Yonhap) -- Korea's martial art taekkyon and tightrope walking received world intangible heritage status from the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) on Monday, the world body said.

   In a meeting in Bali, Indonesia, the UNESCO Intergovernmental Committee for the Safeguarding of the Intangible Cultural Heritage added the Korean assets "taekkyon" and "jultagi" (tightrope walking) to the intangible list, it said."

So as Glenn pointed out, kicking (Taekkyon) has always been a part of Korea culture and it existed as a Korean methods of sport and self defense long before the arrival of Karate or Chuanfa, or other marital arts. When our Korean seniors meet with these martial arts of Karate, Chuanfa, etc, it was natural for them to blend it with the kicking they had already naturally grown up with.

Example: When face to face in an interview, I asked GM Chong Woo Lee, a founder of Jidokwan, KTA, Kukkiwon and WTF, and main proponent of "Olympic Sparring" --these questions, he told me that his teacher GM CHUN Sang Sup learned karate in Japan from Funakoshi Sensei, he also said that most of them had never taken any formal training in Taekkyon like they did Karate, but they had naturally liked to kick, saw Taekkyon skills and incorporated that experience into creating Taekwondo.

If we understood Korea a little better, we would understand what they are trying to tell us. The problem is, due to ignorance of Korean culture, some people express that ignorance by calling Korean's liars, thieves and cheats.  But hate and ignorance are part of the same set of "defilements" which training CORRECTLY in martial arts is supposed to overcome, NOT magnify. If a person has been training CORRECTLY in martial arts for a long period of time, they would not have this sort of problem.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> I think his point is the taekwondo comes from shotokan (and shotokan only) because of that form. Which of course ignores the korean cultural aspects of taekwondo, including but not limited to emphasizing kicking over punching in a physical encounter. So once again, those in the "taekwondo is shotokan" camp argue that taekwondo is shotokan because of those forms, while those attempting to explain taekwondo's emphasis on kicking focus on korean culture and its long history. The analogy I gave was that that the "shotokan is taekwondo" people are like blind men, feeling the trunk of an elephant and exclaiming to the whole world that an elephant is really a snake. I guess if you narrowly concentrate on the elephant's trunk, then that might seem to be true, but we have eyes and can the elephant as a whole, which doesn't look like a snake at all. And when we say that an elephant is not a snake, some people feel the need to call us liars.
> 
> that is the cliffnotes summary of this thread.



Exactly! 

"For myself, for the Kwan, for the country, based on these three words, Jidokwan was founded in March 3rd of 1946. The Jidokwan was first titled as Cho Sun Yun Moo Kwan Kong Soo Do Bu.
The Cho Sun Yun Moo Kwan first founded by CHUN, Sang Sup, the first grandmaster of Jidokwan. Master CHUN, Sang Sup first started his martial arts career in Judo during his high school years, then he attended Dong Yang Chuck Sik (Takushoku) College in Japan, where he mastered Karate"  ~ GM Chong Woo Lee, Jidokwan Leader, past WTF Secretary General, a founder of KTA and Kukkiwon.

"Byung-in Yoon, foudner of YMCA Chang Moo Kwan graduated from Sin Kyung Middle School in Manchuria and practiced in Chinese Chuanfa in 1930.  He went to Japan and studied in Japanese University and was know to have a relationship with Shudokan and it's leader YOYAMA Kanken who trained an recognized Yoon as a 4th Dan in Karate" ~ GM Kyo Yoon Lee, founder of Han Moo Kwan, a fonder of KTA and Kukkiwon.  Chairman of Kukkiwon 8th and 9th Dan testing committee.

GM Kyong Myong Lee, a founding signatory of the WTF also stated that 4 of the 5 main Kwan founders learned Karate.

So this is nothing new, and nothing that is denied.


----------



## Twin Fist

then again, maybe if they didnt LIE, people wouldnt call them liars.

call me crazy but when you makes claims that are simply not true, you gonna get called a liar


----------



## mastercole

Sensei's Funakoshi, Mabuni, Toyama and others brought many types of Kata, including the Heian from Okinawa, *they were not originally from Japan*. Their Korean students were educated and could read the Chinese characters, so they pronounced Heian as Pyongahn.  We have all known that from day one.  I don't think anyone has ever denied that.

By the way I saw that video Jeremy posted.  Not only is Sejong (&#49464;&#51333 pronounced incorrectly, it is also performed incorrectly, and it is incorrect that Sejong invented Hangul -- scholars invented hangul, and it was 28 shapes they presented, not 24. I know, because I visited his tomb, saw the original documents in the National Museum of Korea and attended the Sejong exhibit. Chulki is also pronounced wrong by everyone, as well as performed wrong.  IMEO


----------



## Twin Fist

as long as the KKW, the self proclaimed world wide leaders of TKD continue to push these lies, they will get called liars.



elder999 said:


> Oyama Sosai studied with a lot of people. There was quite a fair amount of cross-pollination in the creation of Kyokushin. All of this is a matter of official record. The "official record" on taekwondo, though?
> 
> From the WTF website:
> _
> However, the Japanese colonial government totally prohibited all folkloric games including Taekkyon in the process of suppressing the Korean people. The martial art Taekkyon [Taekwondo] had been secretly handed down only by the masters of the art until the liberation of the country in 1945. Song Duk-Ki, one of the then masters testifies that his master was Im Ho who was reputed for his excellent skills of Taekkyon, "jumping over the walls and running through the wood just like a tiger." (explanation of taekkon techniques in muyedobo-tongji (general illustrations of techniques) (scene of contest).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> _and:_
> 
> _
> Upon liberation of Korea from the Japanese colonial rule after World War II, the Korean people began recovering the thought of self-reliance and the traditional folkloric games resumed their popularity. Song Duk-Ki, afore-mentioned master of Taekkyon, presented a demonstration of the martial art before the first republic of Korea president Syngman Rhee on the occasion of his birthday, *clearly distinguishing Taekwondo from the Japanese Karate which had been introduced by the Japanese*_
> 
> 
> Now, how do you  reconcile the above "official history" with what is clearly known, and demonstrated in my post on page 2?
> [/COLOR]


----------



## mastercole

Twin Fist said:


> then again, maybe if they didnt LIE, people wouldnt call them liars.
> 
> call me crazy but when you makes claims that are simply not true, you gonna get called a liar



Maybe if your instructors did not lie to you, you would not call them liars.


----------



## lifespantkd

To focus solely on the physical techniques of Taekwondo when analyzing its history is to neglect at least half of that history. Many practitioners study Taekwondo as an art in which the smallest unit of technique is deeply imbued with an underlying philosophy, the goals of which include peace, harmony, and unity for mankind via the physical, mental, and spiritual development of individuals. This is the Taekwondo created by the men who worked toward its unification. Anyone unfamiliar with the immense magnitude of the intertwining of technique and philosphy in Kukkiwon Taekwondo may find, for example, Grandmaster LEE, Kyong Myong's detailed explanations in "Korean Traditional Martial Art: Taekwondo Philosophy and Culture" quite enlightening. Grandmaster Lee is a Kukkiwon 9th dan black belt who served as Deputy Secretary General of the World Taekwondo Federation from 1991 to 1999. 

"The virtue of taekwondo training, which aims at perfection of an all-around human being, can be well manifested in one's achievement of the mind of _hongik-ingan _through the enhancement of harmony between mind and body, thereby believing in the merits of living in homologous cooperation between human beings and other human beings or between human beings and nature. Therefore, taekwondo training must be conducted in a close coordination among the spiritual, moral, and physical training, which are inseparable from one another." -- LEE, Kyong Myong, p. 41 "Korean Traditional Martial Art: Taekwondo Philosophy and Culture

Note: _hongik-ingan_ is defined as "humanitarianism"

When that inherent philosophy is viewed as tangential, at best, or irrelevant, at worst, any analysis of Taekwondo's history will necessarily be incomplete and inaccurate. The philosophy (e.g., _Han_, Taoist, Buddhist) inherent in every movement of Kukkiwon Taekwondo is, indeed, ancient.

Peace,

Cynthia


----------



## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> as long as the KKW, the self proclaimed world wide leaders of TKD continue to push these lies, they will get called liars.



The world leaders of taekwondo, at the Kukkiwon and WTF, are elected. They are not self proclaimed. As for pushing lies, I highly doubt that the leaders of the Kukkiwon or WTF even read the webpage, especially in english. So I can't see how they would be "pushing" anything. But that's ok. Don't let that stop you.


----------



## elder999

puunui said:


> The world leaders of taekwondo, at the Kukkiwon and WTF, are elected. They are not self proclaimed. As for pushing lies, I highly doubt that the leaders of the Kukkiwon or WTF even read the webpage, *especially in english.* So I can't see how they would be "pushing" anything. But that's ok. Don't let that stop you.



I'd say the quality of the "english" is pretty clear evidence that _they *wrote* it._


----------



## puunui

elder999 said:


> I'd say the quality of the "english" is pretty clear evidence that _they *wrote* it._



So it is your position that the Presidents of the WTF and Kukkiwon wrote what is on the WTF and Kukkiwon webpages? I would think that they have more important things to concentrate on than that.


----------



## elder999

puunui said:


> So it is your position that the Presidents of the WTF and Kukkiwon wrote what is on the WTF and Kukkiwon webpages? I would think that they have more important things to concentrate on than that.



Oh, no-it's pretty clear that the "history" on that page was written by someone for whom English is a second language, or badly translated from Korean by someone for whom English is a second language, and Korean is a third, but if you haven't recognized by now that I don't really have a position on most of this-other _than the kata coming from Japan, and the "sine wave" being *silly*_-let me make it clear:

The Pyung ahn forms came from the early Korean TKD masters _exposure_ to Japanese/Okinawan karate, and the sine wave is silly. 

That is all. :lfao:

Well, no, it's not-culturally, it isn't likely that the Koreans would have received quality instruction from the Japanese, any more than the Japanese necessarily did from the Okinawans. After the end of WWII they were left to their own devices, and made something different from what they had learned-and that something continued to evolve-50 odd years later, its "official" form bears little resmeblance to that early "Korean_ karate_".....

.....but it *didn't* come from "ancient Korean" *anythying,* except maybe "cultural values."

That is all.


----------



## mastercole

elder999 said:


> Oh, no-it's pretty clear that the "history" on that page was written by someone for whom English is a second language, or badly translated from Korean by someone for whom English is a second language, and Korean is a third, but if you haven't recognized by now that I don't really have a position on most of this-other _than the kata coming from Japan, and the "sine wave" being *silly*_-let me make it clear:
> 
> The Pyung ahn forms came from the early Korean TKD masters _exposure_ to Japanese/Okinawan karate, and the sine wave is silly.
> 
> That is all. :lfao:
> 
> Well, no, it's not-culturally, it isn't likely that the Koreans would have received quality instruction from the Japanese, any more than the Japanese necessarily did from the Okinawans. After the end of WWII they were left to their own devices, and made something different from what they had learned-and that something continued to evolve-50 odd years later, its "official" form bears little resmeblance to that early "Korean_ karate_".....
> 
> .....but it *didn't* come from "ancient Korean" *anythying,* except maybe "cultural values."
> 
> That is all.



No one says the Pyongahn came from ancient Korea, we always knew it came from Okinawa. So I don't understand your point.  Did you read what I wrote and quoted the Taekwondo leaders stating that their teachers learned Karate and Chuanfa?


----------



## puunui

elder999 said:


> Oh, no-it's pretty clear that the "history" on that page was written by someone for whom English is a second language, or badly translated from Korean by someone for whom English is a second language, and Korean is a third



I was responding to this comment by twinfist, who said:



Twin Fist said:


> as long as the KKW, the self proclaimed world  wide leaders of TKD continue to push these lies, they will get called  liars.



That's why I said I highly doubt that the world leaders at Kukkiwon and WTF even read the Kukkiwon or WTF webpages in english. 




Twin Fist said:


> Well, no, it's not-culturally, it isn't likely that the Koreans would have received quality instruction from the Japanese, any more than the Japanese necessarily did from the Okinawans. After the end of WWII they were left to their own devices, and made something different from what they had learned-and that something continued to evolve-50 odd years later, its "official" form bears little resmeblance to that early "Korean_ karate_".....



The pioneers didn't learn from the Japanese, they learned in Japan from Okinawan teachers. Oyama Sensei did learn from Yamaguchi Sensei and Yoshida Sensei but for Shotokan he apparently learned directly from Gichin Sensei, who was Okinawan. 

GM LEE Won Kuk said that NAKAYAMA Masayoshi Sensei was his junior who came after him. And they were not left to their own devices, in fact GM Lee stated that he did go to the Shotokan after he returned to Japan in 1950-1976 but didn't like the direction his junior Nakayama Sensei was taking Shotokan, because it was against the original principles of what he learned prior to WWII. He said those that took over and created the JKA were low ranked inexperienced people who started immediately before or after WWII or those, like Nakayama Sensei, who had been away from karate and Japan for much of WWII. He said that what most people called "Shotokan" today is very different than what he learned, which was a more natural relaxed style, instead of the rigid, stiff, unnatural style that is the JKA trademark. I took JKA karate for four years and quit because I felt that couldn't be good for one's body. All the seniors had back problems and other aliments, even back then. 

And left to their own devices, I don't think so, because in the late 50's and early 60's, there were many exchange trips between Korea and Japan. The pioneers were greatly interested in Japanese Karate, their organizations how they set things up, and so forth. 

But yes, the Pinan kata that was practiced by you at GM Son's dojang came from GM LEE Won Kuk, who learned karate at the Shotokan under Gichin Sensei's son, FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei. Even the name Chung Do Kwan, is derived from the same Shotokan (pinewaves) (Song Do Kwan in Korean). GM Lee changed the Song character to Chung (meaning blue) to create the name Chung Do Kwan (bluewaves) while sitting on a beach in Korea and watching the waves crash onto the sand. No one disputes those pinan kata came from shotokan. What is disputed is that Shotokan = Taekwondo, which fails to take into account all of the other aspects of taekwondo which is not from okinawan karate. 




Twin Fist said:


> .....but it *didn't* come from "ancient Korean" *anythying,* except maybe "cultural values." That is all.



See mastercole's explanation of taekkyon and korean culture, if you don't wish to read my further posts to you.


----------



## elder999

mastercole said:


> No one says the Pyongahn came from ancient Korea, we always knew it came from Okinawa. So I don't understand your point. Did you read what I wrote and quoted the Taekwondo leaders stating that their teachers learned Karate and Chuanfa?



Did *you* read what I posted from the official WTF webpage "history?" 

Can you not see how confusing that is? How some might insist on calling it a "lie," and those who promulgate its content "liars?"


----------



## tkd1964

Cyriacus said:


> The extent of My Taught Knowledge of TKD History: This System was founded in 1965.
> 
> I shut a whole ton of stuff out of My head from the ITF  I choose to not be concerned by it.


Wouldn't that be 1955?


----------



## mastercole

elder999 said:


> Did *you* read what I posted from the official WTF webpage "history?"
> 
> Can you not see how confusing that is? How some might insist on calling it a "lie," and those who promulgate its content "liars?"



I read it, and I understood it completely, did you read my response?  Did you understand my response?  WTF official history page did not seem confusing to me at all, but I can see how it would be confusing to someone who did not understand Taekwondo, and by extension, Korean culture.  But I know GM Kyung Myong Lee, who is the one who actually wrote what you copied from that page. I also was smart enough to get his books, to read detail. 

Do you realize that the web page of the WTF and the Kukkiwon are not meant to be complete definitive works on Taekwondo history?  For that, you should read more from the author and editor of the webpage and Kukkiwon Textbook, which also is not intended to be a definitive history book of Taekwondo.  Maybe that is why you are confused, you think you are reading the definitive history of Taekwondo when all you are reading is an overview.  But I can see you are confused about a lot of things to do with Taekwondo, like the correct writing of your teachers name, and thinking that Kukkiwon left Gen. Choi's sine wave out of the 1967 and 1972 Poomsae, and that the Korean master's learned from the Japanese when they in fact learned from the Okinawans and so on and so forth.


----------



## mastercole

tkd1964 said:


> [h=2]Re: curious[/h]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Cyriacus*
> 
> 
> The extent of My Taught Knowledge of TKD History: This System was founded in 1965.
> 
> I shut a whole ton of stuff out of My head from the ITF  I choose to not be concerned by it.
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't that be 1955?​



There was no founding of the system.  What was practiced among the Kwan in 1954, 55, 56, 57, was pretty much the same with little change.  What was practiced in 1964, 65, 66 was also pretty much the same. 1955 and 1965 were not significant dates as far as techniques were concerned.  A big change in curriculum came in 1967 with the creation of Palqwe and Dan Poomse (Poomsae).  

1955 would be when the name was first used (by Chung Do Kwan and it's offshoot Oh Do Kwan), but the name was not accepted by everyone, most who continued to use Kong Soo Do and Tang Soo Do, etc.  10 years later, after some debate about the name, August 5, 1965 is when the name was officially accepted by the majority.


----------



## elder999

mastercole said:


> I read it, and I understood it completely, did you read my response? Did you understand my response? WTF official history page did not seem confusing to me at all, but I can see how it would be confusing to someone who did not understand Taekwondo, and by extension, Korean culture. But I know GM Kyung Myong Lee, who is the one who actually wrote what you copied from that page. I also was smart enough to get his books, to read detail.



It might behoove you-as a respectful student of his-to make some suggestions in terms of syntax and style. It might be good if it said something to the effect of the Korean masters adding native Korean movements and preferences to the kata they'd learned in Japan, but that might be too much to ask.





mastercole said:


> But I can see you are confused about a lot of things to do with Taekwondo, like the correct writing of your teachers name,



I am usually pretty careful about rendering my teacher's name, _Oyama Shigeru, _in the correct Japanese fashion, with the family name first, as he and my seniors taught me-despite a frequent insistence by others to render it and Oyama Sosai's names in western fashion, like:"mas Oyama."Likewise, I render Master Son's name the way it was taught to me, _by him and my seniors_:





mastercole said:


> and thinking that Kukkiwon left Gen. Choi's sine wave out of the 1967 and 1972 Poomsae,



No, that's *your* confusion-I merely stated that the forms were done without the sine wave-of course that silliness was a later addition of Choi's.




mastercole said:


> and that the Korean master's learned from the Japanese when they in fact learned from the Okinawans and so on and so forth.



And this is a nationalist distinction that is tenuous given the time, at best-Funakoshi sensei was teaching Japanese, and it's likely that the Korean masters received their instruction from Japanese student of his. It's also simply untrue in the case of Toyama sensei, of the Shudokan, who was, of course, _Japanes_e-though born in Okinawa-of course, being a taekwondoin, you probably aren't aware of such distinctions........it's sort of like calling Oyama Sosai "Korean," when, in fact, he insisted on *being *"Japanese," but in this case Toyama was from an ethnic Japanese family from Okinawa.


----------



## Twin Fist

pretty much everyone, including the KKW fan boys has admitted that the official KKW version of the history of TKD is an outright LIE. By extension, anyone shoveling that crap is......well shoveling crap

I would say my work here is done.

thanks Jeff.


----------



## mastercole

elder999 said:


> *Re: curious*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *mastercole*
> 
> 
> I read it, and I understood it completely, did you read my response? Did you understand my response? WTF official history page did not seem confusing to me at all, but I can see how it would be confusing to someone who did not understand Taekwondo, and by extension, Korean culture. But I know GM Kyung Myong Lee, who is the one who actually wrote what you copied from that page. I also was smart enough to get his books, to read detail.
> 
> 
> 
> It might behoove you-as a respectful student of his-to make some suggestions in terms of syntax and style. It might be good if it said something to the effect of the Korean masters adding native Korean movements and preferences to the kata they'd learned in Japan, but that might be too much to ask.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *mastercole*
> 
> 
> But I can see you are confused about a lot of things to do with Taekwondo, like the correct writing of your teachers name,
> 
> 
> 
> I am usually pretty careful about rendering my teacher's name, _Oyama Shigeru, _in the correct Japanese fashion, with the family name first, as he and my seniors taught me-despite a frequent insistence by others to render it and Oyama Sosai's names in western fashion, like:"mas Oyama."Likewise, I render Master Son's name the way it was taught to me, _by him and my seniors_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *mastercole*
> 
> 
> and thinking that Kukkiwon left Gen. Choi's sine wave out of the 1967 and 1972 Poomsae,
> 
> 
> 
> No, that's *your* confusion-I merely stated that the forms were done without the sine wave-of course that silliness was a later addition of Choi's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *mastercole*
> 
> 
> and that the Korean master's learned from the Japanese when they in fact learned from the Okinawans and so on and so forth.
> 
> 
> 
> And this is a nationalist distinction that is tenuous given the time, at best-Funakoshi sensei was teaching Japanese, and it's likely that the Korean masters received their instruction from Japanese student of his. It's also simply untrue in the case of Toyama sensei, of the Shudokan, who was, of course, _Japanes_e-though born in Okinawa-of course, being a taekwondoin, you probably aren't aware of such distinctions........it's sort of like calling Oyama Sosai "Korean," when, in fact, he insisted on *being*"Japanese," but in this case Toyama was from an ethnic Japanese family from Okinawa.​



I was speaking of GM Kyung Myong Lee as an author and editor -- to this audience. Also, I have no problem at all with what he has presented on those official websites, I feel it is just enough information to motivate the curious student to search deeper.

Why do you write Oyama Sensei's last name first and not show the same respect, as demanded in Korean culture, calling your instructor by first name?  And you were not speaking of him as an author, as Korean authors names will often appear in books with the Western style.  It would be correct for you to refer to him as GM SON Duk Song, or Son Sabumnim, or Son Kwanjangnim, the same courtesy you extend Oyama Sensei.

And your comment that the Poomsae were made without the sine wave was out of time, regardless.

Toyama Sensei was born, and raised in Okinawa, regardless of his bloodline. He learned form some of the same teachers as Funakoshi Sensei and Mabuni Sensei.  I'd say that's very Okinawan.  And if you have evidence of any of the Kwan founders training under Japanese born and raised Karate instructors, please present it.


----------



## elder999

mastercole said:


> I Why do you write Oyama Sensei's last name first and not show the same respect, as demanded in Korean culture, calling your instructor by first name? And you were not speaking of him as an author, as Korean authors names will often appear in books with the Western style. It would be correct for you to refer to him as GM SON Duk Song, or Son Sabumnim, or Son Kwanjangnim, the same courtesy you extend Oyama Sensei.



As I said, that rendering was how the majority of my seniors referred to him, as well as how he introduced himself-I don't know why he chose to do so; I can only speculate. In any case, *I* do so out of respect for what were pretty clearly his wishes. 

Since most of the founders of the kwans trained in Japanese university, with university clubs, it's unlikely that they received instruction directly from Funakoshi, or any other Okinawan, and far more likely that they received their instructions from Japanese students-with possible exception of those who trained under Toyama.


----------



## mastercole

elder999 said:


> As I said, that rendering was how the majority of my seniors referred to him, as well as how he introduced himself-I don't know why he chose to do so; I can only speculate. In any case, *I* do so out of respect for what were pretty clearly his wishes.
> 
> Since most of the founders of the kwans trained in Japanese university, with university clubs, it's unlikely that they received instruction directly from Funakoshi, or any other Okinawan, and far more likely that they received their instructions from Japanese students-with possible exception of those who trained under Toyama.



Chung Do Kwan founder GM LEE Won Kuk stated that he trained with Funakoshi's son, who was Okinawan.  So did Song Moo Kwan founder GM ROH Byeong Jick.  And if Toyama Sensei is Okinawan now  then that makes Chang Moo Kwan's GM YOON Byeong In, and, Jidokwan's GM YON Kwai Byeong two more who trained directly under Okinawans.

If we want to consider GM KIM Ki Hwang as a founder of Moo Duk Kwan, he to trained directly under Toyama Sensei. 

What about Jidokwan's GM CHUN Sang Sup, who trained at Takushoku Dai, who do you think taught him directly, an Okinawan, or a Japanese master?

Let's not forget about Oh Do Kwan founder CHOI Hong Hi. Some claim he trained with Funakoshi, or his son.

Looks like most of the Kwan founders had Okinawan teachers.  Unless you have different information.


----------



## elder999

mastercole said:


> Chung Do Kwan founder GM LEE Won Kuk stated that he trained with Funakoshi's son, who was Okinawan. So did Song Moo Kwan founder GM ROH Byeong Jick. And if Toyama Sensei is Okinawan now  then that makes Chang Moo Kwan's GM YOON Byeong In, and, Jidokwan's GM YON Kwai Byeong two more who trained directly under Okinawans.
> 
> If we want to consider GM KIM Ki Hwang as a founder of Moo Duk Kwan, he to trained directly under Toyama Sensei.
> 
> What about Jidokwan's GM CHUN Sang Sup, who trained at Takushoku Dai, who do you think taught him directly, an Okinawan, or a Japanese master?
> 
> Let's not forget about Oh Do Kwan founder CHOI Hong Hi. Some claim he trained with Funakoshi, or his son.
> 
> Looks like most of the Kwan founders had Okinawan teachers. Unless you have different information.



Ah, but it was Funakoshi's son who gave Shotokan its _Japanes_e cultural and stylistic flavoring, as well as a well rounded arsenal of kicks. 

Likewise, he was, by all accounts, pretty sick during WWII-though he did continue to train-but I have to question how much training they actually did "with" him, versus "under" him-something we probably have no way of really knowing, though they couldn't have had it easy with the Japanese students at that time.


----------



## Earl Weiss

mastercole said:


> Master Weiss, when was the sine wave added. What is the history of that?



While the term Sine Wave first appears in the 1980 Text, the methodology of flexing the knees to help generate power in leg techniques appears in the 1972 text. I will check the 1965 text to see if it appears there.  Before the 1980 text the term we used in the USA was "Spring Style" reflecting the fact that the head moved up and down as the knes flexed as opposed to staying level as fouind in other systems.  As with many things that Gneral Choi came up with names for I consider it to be a metaphor and not a perfect description especialy from a physcs standpoint. Other such terms include "L" stance, "U" shape Block, Double Arc and Block etc.


----------



## puunui

tkd1964 said:


> Wouldn't that be 1955?



no.


----------



## puunui

elder999 said:


> And this is a nationalist distinction that is tenuous given the time, at best-Funakoshi sensei was teaching Japanese, and it's likely that the Korean masters received their instruction from Japanese student of his.



No need to speculate. GM LEE Won Kuk told me personally that his teacher was both FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei (father) and FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei (son). GM Lee also said that GM RO Byung Jick learned primarily from Gichin Sensei, because he learned in the day classes, while GM Lee learned at night with Yoshitaka Sensei, because both had day jobs. 




elder999 said:


> It's also simply untrue in the case of Toyama sensei, of the Shudokan, who was, of course, _Japanes_e-though born in Okinawa-of course, being a taekwondoin, you probably aren't aware of such distinctions........



Are you sure about that? I ask because Toyama Sensei's birth name was Oyadomari, which is an Okinawan city and surname. I grew up with friends whose last name is Oyadomari, and they are Okinawan Americans. 




elder999 said:


> it's sort of like calling Oyama Sosai "Korean," when, in fact, he insisted on *being *"Japanese,"



I just did a Kukkiwon promotion recommendation for someone in Oyama Sosai's situation, an ethnic korean living in Japan. He had a korean passport, and an Japanese alien registration card with his Japanese name, but he preferred to use his Japanese name on his certificate rather than his korean name. I'll let you know what the Kukkiwon does with respect to the name on his certificate.


----------



## puunui

elder999 said:


> Since most of the founders of the kwans trained in Japanese university, with university clubs, it's unlikely that they received instruction directly from Funakoshi, or any other Okinawan, and far more likely that they received their instructions from Japanese students-with possible exception of those who trained under Toyama.




Again, no need to speculate, we have direct testimony (which I have on videotape) about who GM Lee's teachers were.


----------



## puunui

elder999 said:


> Ah, but it was Funakoshi's son who gave Shotokan its _Japanes_e cultural and stylistic flavoring, as well as a well rounded arsenal of kicks.



So what? That still doesn't change the fact that GM Lee's teacher was Okinawan, not Japanese. 




elder999 said:


> Likewise, he was, by all accounts, pretty sick during WWII-though he did continue to train-but I have to question how much training they actually did "with" him, versus "under" him-something we probably have no way of really knowing, though they couldn't have had it easy with the Japanese students at that time.



Again, no need to speculate about the health of Yoshitaka Sensei or his contributions and teaching at the Shotokan. Plenty of testimony and evidence that Yoshitaka Sensei led classes throughout the time that GM Lee was learning from him. GM Lee left Japan in January 1944, and Yoshitaka Sensei passed away in I believe November 1945, almost two years later, and Yoshitaka Sensei's health may have been failing during that period, but not when GM Lee was there.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> So what? That still doesn't change the fact that GM Lee's teacher was Okinawan, not Japanese.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, no need to speculate about the health of Yoshitaka Sensei or his contributions and teaching at the Shotokan. Plenty of testimony and evidence that Yoshitaka Sensei led classes throughout the time that GM Lee was learning from him. GM Lee left Japan in January 1944, and Yoshitaka Sensei passed away in I believe November 1945, almost two years later, and Yoshitaka Sensei's health may have been failing during that period, but not when GM Lee was there.



Nothing like a first hand account.  Now we know.


----------



## elder999

mastercole said:


> Nothing like a first hand account. Now we know.



We also know that GM Lee trained while at Central University in Tokyo, and that Funakoshi _pere et fils_ Sensei taught at *various* universities throughout Japan at this time-which begs the question of who conducted training in their absence-as in, when they were at other universities. Most of my World Tae Kwon Do Association/Chung Do Kwan training was under Mike McGinnis, though I trained in GM Park led groups about four times a year, sometimes less-I suppose I _could_ say that I trained with GM Park......


----------



## puunui

elder999 said:


> We also know that GM Lee trained while at Central University in Tokyo, and that Funakoshi _pere et fils_ Sensei taught at *various* universities throughout Japan at this time-which begs the question of who conducted training in their absence-as in, when they were at other universities. Most of my World Tae Kwon Do Association/Chung Do Kwan training was under Mike McGinnis, though I trained in GM Park led groups about four times a year, sometimes less-I suppose I _could_ say that I trained with GM Park......



"Central University" is Chuo Daigaku. GM Lee did start his karate training at Chuo, very early on, when Gichin Sensei and Yoshitaka Sensei alternated teaching duties there. There were no japanese students who were teaching at Chuo when GM Lee was there. Keep in mind that GM Lee was six years older than Nakayama Sensei and he began his training much earlier than Nakayama Sensei, who many considered "the" senior. But he was GM Lee's junior. Got that on tape too.


----------



## elder999

puunui;[URL="tel:1454984" said:
			
		

> 1454984[/URL]]"Central University" is Chuo Daigaku. .



Yeah, "Chuo Daigakiu" _means_ "Central university."

As for the rest of what you have on tape, too-if he says so.


----------



## puunui

elder999 said:


> As for the rest of what you have on tape, too-if he says so.



Well, on one hand, we have the words of the person who was actually there, telling us his experiences. On the other hand, we have your speculative comments. It's not a hard decision to figure out which is more accurate factually.


----------



## puunui

puunui said:


> Keep in mind that GM Lee was six years older than Nakayama Sensei and he began his training much earlier than Nakayama Sensei, who many considered "the" senior. But he was GM Lee's junior. Got that on tape too.



Forgot to mention that GM Lee not only started before Nakayama Sensei, but he also stayed in Japan and continued his karate studies when Nakayama Sensei was in China, from I think 1937-1946. GM Lee has a very unique first hand perspective on not only the korean martial arts, but on japanese martial arts as well.


----------



## puunui

elder999 said:


> Most of my World Tae Kwon Do Association/Chung Do Kwan training was under Mike McGinnis, though I trained in GM Park led groups about four times a year, sometimes less-I suppose I _could_ say that I trained with GM Park......



Sorry I do not know your instructor, Mr. McGinnis. And which GM Park are you speaking of?


----------



## elder999

puunui said:


> Well, on one hand, we have the words of the person who was actually there, telling us his experiences. On the other hand, we have your speculative comments. It's not a hard decision to figure out which is more accurate factually.




As I said, then-if he says so.



			
				puunui;[URL="tel:1454993" said:
			
		

> 1454993[/URL]]Sorry I do not know your instructor, Mr. McGinnis. And which GM Park are you speaking of?



Yer missing the point. I was thinking of Dr. Park-don't remember his full name, and he was GM Son's most senior at the time-as it was, I really mostly saw them at gradings-I hardly ever took classes with them, though I did have occasion to at West Point and Pace University as I progressed-and I hardly saw GM Son at all, except at gradings and tournaments. Could I truly say say that I trained with them,rather than _under_ them? While I have no reason to doubt GM Lee, it just seems unlikely that all the Korean GM's who claim to have trained with either of the Funakoshis could actually have received ALL or even a majority of their training directly from them. No matter-it's quibbling, really......

Mike McGinnis was a New York Corrections officer at the time-last I heard, he was superintendent of Southport Correctional Facility.


----------



## puunui

Well, at least you are no longer littering your posting with yellow men rolling on the floor laughing. That's something. 

Curious though, why did you choose kyokushin over GM Son's taekwondo?


----------



## elder999

puunui said:
			
		

> Curious though, why did you choose kyokushin over GM Son's taekwondo?



Contact. Coherence. Comraderie. Consistency.

At nidan/yidan in both arts, it was pretty clear to me which art was the best fit for me, and which ranking meant the mostn _to  me_, because-in my estimation- I'd had to work harder for it. While I appreciated quite a few things about taekwondo, and its high kicks were a good fir for my frame, in the end, it wasn't a hard choice at all. There's a WTA group here in Los Alamos-I know a lot of them,worked with two higher-ranking black belts, one of whom is now deceased-they are very nice people,and we've visited each other's classes. I also had become good friends with a few of my seniors in Kyokushin, and, of course, there's the fact that the application of what some individual movements in kata meant made much more sense to me in Kyokushin than in GM Son's taekwondo.


----------



## elder999

elder999 said:


> Contact. Coherence. Comraderie. Consistency.
> 
> At nidan/yidan in both arts, it was pretty clear to me which art was the best fit for me, and which ranking meant the mostn _to me_, because-in my estimation- I'd had to work harder for it. While I appreciated quite a few things about taekwondo, and its high kicks were a good fir for my frame, in the end, it wasn't a hard choice at all. There's a WTA group here in Los Alamos-I know a lot of them,worked with two higher-ranking black belts, one of whom is now deceased-they are very nice people,and we've visited each other's classes. I also had become good friends with a few of my seniors in Kyokushin, and, of course, there's the fact that the application of what some individual movements in kata meant made much more sense to me in Kyokushin than in GM Son's taekwondo.



Another reason, and maybe the most important, was Kyokushin karate's ibuki breathing, and sanchin kata-as someone born with life-threatening respiratory issues, I benefitted greatly from these-still do. Taekwondo, of course-at least, GM Son's, has no equivalent.


----------



## puunui

elder999 said:


> Contact. Coherence. Comraderie. Consistency.




Funny, that is the exact reasons why I have stayed with taekwondo all these years. One quick question: What kind of sparring did GM Son teach? Non-contact?


----------



## elder999

puunui said:


> Funny, that is the exact reasons why I have stayed with taekwondo all these years. One quick question: What kind of sparring did GM Son teach? Non-contact?



Yeah-old time controlled Shotokan style sparring, with no contact. That's changed a little, now, but between '71 and '80, that's what there was.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> and the korean version of kendo?


There isn't one.  The kanji that 'kendo' uses in Japan is pronounced 'kumdo' in Korean.  The Korean Kumdo Association is the Korean NGB for kendo in Korea, just as the All US Kendo Federation is in the United States.  The Korean kendo team does very well, incidentally.

Haidong Gumdo, the most famous Korean sword art, is not a Korean version of kendo.  It is an art created in the twentieth century and is really its own thing.  The official history of the art has some questionable elements, but the art is a worthwhile art.

I'm not going to read through all seventeen or eighteen pages of this thread, but I know the impetus for the OP.


----------



## FizzyCal

I didn't take the time to read through all 17 pages of posts here, but I did want to put my 2 cents in. Whatever you want to call TKD, either theft or addaptation, you find the same thing in ALOT of other martial arts. Judo, Jiu-Jitsu, Phillipino styles are all very similar, with slight variations. There are only so many ways to throw a punch, a kick, or do a joint lock. Some have adapted better than others with slight improvements. I believe a typical martial art, no matter what techniques are taught, are indiginous to the geographical location where it has been practiced. However, on one note, my instructor and I were having a similar discussion (I do practice Tae Kwon Do) about the Chang Hon forms. He had me do Won Hyo as he did another form ( I think either Shorin Ryu or Ishin Ryu, not sure) they were nearly identical. Very slight variations.


----------

