# H&K USP 9mm



## Rich Parsons (Nov 8, 2006)

Is there anything I should know about this gun? 
http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/index.jsp?loc=101&SITEID=A&PartNumber=704501

Just looking into one.


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## Grenadier (Nov 8, 2006)

An excellent choice.  It's reliable with a wide variety of ammo, although I would not shoot unjacketed lead out of its polygonally rifled barrel.  Exceptions OK are when using Lasercast / Oregon Trail bullets.  

The gun soaks up recoil very handily, and even the most recoil-sensitive folks can shoot this gun.


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## arnisandyz (Nov 8, 2006)

Not exactly a value leader IMHO as other guns can do the same job for around $200 less - but it is a good quality gun. Grip felt somewhat large for me, the controls (mag release and slidelock) were a bit of a reach. Seemed larger than the average polymer 9mm which you might like if you have big hands. Large trigger guard which is good if you shoot alot with gloves on. Seemed a bit top heavy compared to Glock or M&P. I would say on par with an XD. Bore-axis is more Sig like.  I believe this gun is also available in different trigger variants so you have the option of buying a double/single with decocker, DAO and other configurations.

All-in-all a quality piece, just not for me. If you're sold on it its a great gun, but other guns to test-drive would be the Glock, Smith & Wesson M&P (my current favorite), Springfield XD, Berreta Storm, and the CZ SP01.  Then you have your old reliables in the Sig 226, Berretta 92, and Hi-Power. Sorry if I left any out, but these are the only ones I've shot.


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## Marvin (Nov 8, 2006)

So would 550+tax be a good price for a new USP 9mm?


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 8, 2006)

arnisandyz said:


> Not exactly a value leader IMHO as other guns can do the same job for around $200 less - but it is a good quality gun. Grip felt somewhat large for me, the controls (mag release and slidelock) were a bit of a reach. Seemed larger than the average polymer 9mm which you might like if you have big hands. Large trigger guard which is good if you shoot alot with gloves on. Seemed a bit top heavy compared to Glock or M&P. I would say on par with an XD. Bore-axis is more Sig like. I believe this gun is also available in different trigger variants so you have the option of buying a double/single with decocker, DAO and other configurations.
> 
> All-in-all a quality piece, just not for me. If you're sold on it its a great gun, but other guns to test-drive would be the Glock, Smith & Wesson M&P (my current favorite), Springfield XD, Berreta Storm, and the CZ SP01. Then you have your old reliables in the Sig 226, Berretta 92, and Hi-Power. Sorry if I left any out, but these are the only ones I've shot.



Andy,

What you mention as the the possible draw back are why I like it. It seems to fit my hand real nice. 

The Glock while a nice piece, I have a grip issue with the finger ridges which do not line up with my large  fingers.  I have held the Springfield and the Berretta and a friends Sig before.  What seems like the best fit to me so far is this H&K. 

Thank you for the feedback, it will be considered.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 8, 2006)

Grenadier said:


> An excellent choice. It's reliable with a wide variety of ammo, although I would not shoot unjacketed lead out of its polygonally rifled barrel. Exceptions OK are when using Lasercast / Oregon Trail bullets.
> 
> The gun soaks up recoil very handily, and even the most recoil-sensitive folks can shoot this gun.



Does the unjacketed lead build up over a short period of time on the polygonal barrel or is it something else? 

Thanks


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 8, 2006)

Marvin said:


> So would 550+tax be a good price for a new USP 9mm?



 I think that would be a good price.


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## Blotan Hunka (Nov 8, 2006)

I have to agree w/ Andy. Its a good gun but there are others just as good or better for less $$. But if its a good fit and you dont mind the price then go for it.


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## Blotan Hunka (Nov 8, 2006)

This day and age I dont see ANY need to be shooting pure lead out of any gun. For target use theres plenty of cheap FMJ out there.


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## Marvin (Nov 8, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:


> Does the unjacketed lead build up over a short period of time on the polygonal barrel or is it something else?
> 
> Thanks


Rich, the polygonal rifling is a little different that normal rifling( Glocks have a similar type) the designers say it is to have a better bullet to barrel fit. The problem with straight lead is that it fouls up the grooves of the rifilng, maybe enough to cause damage to the gun or injury to the shooter.


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## Marvin (Nov 8, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:


> This day and age I dont see ANY need to be shooting pure lead out of any gun. For target use theres plenty of cheap FMJ out there.


I agree, unless one is a cowboy shootist


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## Blotan Hunka (Nov 8, 2006)

That would be about the only reason.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 8, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:


> This day and age I dont see ANY need to be shooting pure lead out of any gun. For target use theres plenty of cheap FMJ out there.




While I understand that. As an Engineer type I like to understand the why(s) of an issue. If it jsut the slag build up that causes the damage then I can "see" that. If it is the malable issue of lead with the polygonal then I want to understand why it could cause damage. Not challenging the point, or the value of it, just trying to understand. 

Thank you all


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 8, 2006)

Marvin said:


> Rich, the polygonal rifling is a little different that normal rifling( Glocks have a similar type) the designers say it is to have a better bullet to barrel fit. The problem with straight lead is that it fouls up the grooves of the rifilng, maybe enough to cause damage to the gun or injury to the shooter.




This is the answer I expected. But like I said, I want to understand and not just assume.


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## Blotan Hunka (Nov 8, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:


> While I understand that. As an Engineer type I like to understand the why(s) of an issue. If it jsut the slag build up that causes the damage then I can "see" that. If it is the malable issue of lead with the polygonal then I want to understand why it could cause damage. Not challenging the point, or the value of it, just trying to understand.
> 
> Thank you all


 
As I understand it, the lead can build up in the barrel until it reaches a point where serious overpressure can occur. Then KABOOOM!!


From the guys who know...


http://www.glockfaq.com/reloading.htm


> Can I shoot lead bullets in my Glock?
> This has been debated on rec.guns and GlockTalk about 10,000 times. There are basically 2 schools of thought:
> 
> School #1: Don't Do It
> ...


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 8, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:


> As I understand it, the lead can build up in the barrel until it reaches a point where serious overpressure can occur. Then KABOOOM!!



Frame Cracking and shrapnel and the whole nine yards. That would not be good to the person holding onto the gun. 

Thanks


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## Marvin (Nov 8, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:


> Frame Cracking and shrapnel and the whole nine yards. That would not be good to the person holding onto the gun.
> 
> Thanks


Hmmm???
You know of anyone to whom that has happend.


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## Marvin (Nov 8, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:


> Is there anything I should know about this gun?
> http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/index.jsp?loc=101&SITEID=A&PartNumber=704501
> 
> Just looking into one.


 

Oh and welcome to the "dark side" lol


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## Cruentus (Nov 8, 2006)

I think it's a nice gun if it fits you well and you can get it at a good price. Marvin, 550 plus tax is what I would consider a very good price.

As to KB; now it all makes sense, the use of lead and all. I would imagine that anyone who has had a Glock blow up in their hand is probably one of those people who has weird crap happened to them all the time :lol2: ; but that is good to know about the lead, considering that I have a glock myself. I guess it's good that I haven't been using lead, huh? :redeme:


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 9, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:


> Andy,
> 
> What you mention as the the possible draw back are why I like it. It seems to fit my hand real nice.
> 
> ...


 
Hey Rich,

It is a good handgun though it does not fit my hand well and would not work for me. (plus I love Glock's)  However, since it fits your hand and you like it you might enjoy this one alot.


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## Grenadier (Nov 9, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:


> Does the unjacketed lead build up over a short period of time on the polygonal barrel or is it something else?
> 
> Thanks


 

The rifling isn't too kind to unjacketed lead.  I tried some unjacketed lead that worked fine in a Sig P220 (chambered in the 9 mm), but when fired through a HK USP, created quite a mess.

You *can* use unjacketed lead, but you really have to test things carefully.  

The lead itself must be a good bit harder than ordinary lead bullets, since the softer lead bullets will generally make a big mess with polygonal rifling.  The same holds true for a Glock barrel (which is also polygonally rifled).  Some manufacturers, such as Oregon Trail, make a lead bullet that is harder than most others, and have a higher degree of lubricity, which makes them OK for polygonally rifled barrels.  

On another note, the lead cannot be too hard, regardless of the type of rifling.  Otherwise, the bullet cannot expand to sufficiently seal the bore, and hot gasses will erode the side of the bullet, resulting in leading.  

Unless you reload your own, and are willing to spend a bit more to buy premium lead bullets, it's simply not a good idea to shoot lead through the HK.  In all honesty, with the price of premium lead bullets and copper electroplated bulllets being so similar, I really don't even bother with unjacketed lead, unless I'm about to go to a range that forbids any kind of jacketed or plated bullet (because they use inferior backstops).


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## arnisandyz (Nov 9, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:


> Andy,
> 
> What you mention as the the possible draw back are why I like it. It seems to fit my hand real nice.



Rich..I didn't really say they were drawbacks, just that it felt a little large for my hands. if it fits you and you like it then its not a drawback! If you can get a NIB USP for $550 thats a heck of a deal. Oh and the gun is dead nuts accurate and a smooth shooter. I didn't put enough rounds through one to determine its reliability, but it never failed during the 100 or so rounds I shot it.

Glocks don't fit me well either. I had a 2nd gen 17 without the finger grooves. For me it was the grip angle. I could get used to it but going back and forth from my 1911s was too much of an adjustment. Another great gun that didn't fit me. Something that swayed me to the M&P is that it feels like a Glock that fits my hand.

If you look at IDPA SSP/ESP and IPSC Production division, the class is dominated by Glocks with a good showing of XDs and CZs. The M&P is the new kid on th block but I'm seeing more and more people switching over. Once in a while you'll see guys show up with a SIG or Beretta or HK but they are definately the minority. I'm guessing most competition shooters go for Glocks because of thier simplicity, easy to work on with DIY trigger jobs, etc, reliability, parts availability and low cost. I'm not saying the Sig or HK would not be competitive (I think Sig even fields a professional team) but typically your average shooter who doesn't have a sponsorship would be better served with a Glock type pistol for the above reasons. If something goes wrong with your Glock during a competition you can more than likely borrow parts from someone or keep enough parts on hand to fix any problem. The HK hasn't seen that kind of factory or aftermarket support in the shooting games.  You may not have any intention of competing with the USP but I bring this up because competition shooters are REALLY hard on thier equipment. Some guys I know put well over 5000 rounds per month through thier guns in matches and practices. Competition shooters are competitive guys always looking for an advantage. The advantage in competition of the Glock, CZ, M&P and 1911 is high grip, low bore axis design that puts the recoil straight back into your hand which allows for a faster follow up shot. if you compare the Sig, XD or USP to the Glock you will see the boreline rides a little higher which makes the gun rotate more in the hand.

I'm not trying to sway you one way or another, but if you have a chance to try out a gun in competition before you buy one, certain dynamics are revealed that may not be obvious during indoor range slow fire.


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## Blotan Hunka (Nov 9, 2006)

Grenadier said:


> I really don't even bother with unjacketed lead, unless I'm about to go to a range that forbids any kind of jacketed or plated bullet (because they use inferior backstops).


 
Now that you mentioned that I did once look at joining a local gun club that mandated the use of unjacketed lead. As I only have Glocks I looked elsewhere. Just wasnt worth the hassle.


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## Grenadier (Nov 9, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Now that you mentioned that I did once look at joining a local gun club that mandated the use of unjacketed lead. As I only have Glocks I looked elsewhere. Just wasnt worth the hassle.


 
One particular range simply mandated "lead only."  I tried to point out that the Rainier Ballistics copper electroplated bullets were actually significantly softer than many people's hard-cast lead bullets, but this range owner refused to budge.  I even proved it to him by sawing one bullet in half, and showing him that the core was pretty much pure, soft lead, and that the copper plating was very, very thin, and not a cause for concern, but it was his choice.  He built the range with weak backstops, and didn't like being "lectured by some hotshot young punk who thought he knew everything about bullets when (the range owner) had been in the military for years."  

It's a big time hassle, since using lead bullets results in burnt lube (the alox lube rings on the bullets), and you get a nasty smoke, even if you use the cleanest of powders.  

In fact, after you're done with a session of shooting unjacketed lead, and blow your nose, you'll often times see blue gunk there, since the lube smoke does get trapped in your nostrils.  Nasty, of course.  

Still, some people do get around this problem by using aftermarket barrels that use conventional rifling.  Basto, Jarvis, KKM, Briley, Olympic Arms, etc., all make barrels that can be swapped out for target shooting purposes, and will allow you to use softer alloys of lead in your Glock.  They also make them for HK's.

While these barrels do give me a bit more accuracy, and that they do preserve my .40, 10 mm, and .45 ACP brass more, I wouldn't use them for defensive purposes.  My factory Glock barrels have been ironclad in their reliability, and I won't change that.


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## arnisandyz (Nov 9, 2006)

How about Molly-coated bullets like Precision? Can those be shot in Glocks/HKs and would the Lead only ranges consider them lead?


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## Grenadier (Nov 9, 2006)

arnisandyz said:


> How about Molly-coated bullets like Precision? Can those be shot in Glocks/HKs and would the Lead only ranges consider them lead?


 
To the first question, the answer is "yes."  I've fired many Precision "Black" bullets through my Glocks, in all calibers.  No problems with leading in the factory barrels, although I do keep my loads conservative.  

As to the second question, it depends on the range, and its owner.  The range I was talking about in my previous post wouldn't allow it, since he wanted only unjacketed, plain lead.  Not even those awful copper-washed bullets were allowed.  Another such range, though, had no problem with electroplated or moly-coated bullets, and allowed you to shoot anything as long as it wasn't hard-jacketed.


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## SFC JeffJ (Nov 9, 2006)

Hey Rich,

The H&K USPs are a great fit to my hand as well.  The reason I don't have one is the SA/DA trigger.  I've shot 4 of them and the DA action really bit.  Rough and heavy.  Oddly enough, the DAO didn't feel too bad.

Jeff


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 9, 2006)

Thank you all for the good information.


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## Grenadier (Nov 9, 2006)

JeffJ said:


> Hey Rich,
> 
> The H&K USPs are a great fit to my hand as well. The reason I don't have one is the SA/DA trigger. I've shot 4 of them and the DA action really bit. Rough and heavy. Oddly enough, the DAO didn't feel too bad.
> 
> Jeff


 

The DAO actually is pretty good.  At least it's a huge improvement over their awful VP70 DAO trigger (18-20 lb pull!).


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 10, 2006)

arnisandyz said:


> Rich..I didn't really say they were drawbacks, just that it felt a little large for my hands. if it fits you and you like it then its not a drawback! If you can get a NIB USP for $550 thats a heck of a deal. Oh and the gun is dead nuts accurate and a smooth shooter. I didn't put enough rounds through one to determine its reliability, but it never failed during the 100 or so rounds I shot it.
> 
> Glocks don't fit me well either. I had a 2nd gen 17 without the finger grooves. For me it was the grip angle. I could get used to it but going back and forth from my 1911s was too much of an adjustment. Another great gun that didn't fit me. Something that swayed me to the M&P is that it feels like a Glock that fits my hand.
> 
> ...



Thanks Andy


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