# Properly identify what you teach and learn.



## Jared Traveler (Jul 25, 2022)

I find that the longer I do this type of work, certain things become clear. One of those things is how important definitions are to bringing clarity to what you are learning, and what you are not learning. What you are teaching and what you are not teaching. Here are some terms to consider definitions for.

Martial Arts Training
Self-defense Training
Combatives Training
Safety Training
Personal Security Training

These skills are not the same. It is important to know what you are teaching and learning. Your thoughts?


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## drop bear (Jul 25, 2022)




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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I find that the longer I do this type of work, certain things become clear. One of those things is how important definitions are to bringing clarity to what you are learning, and what you are not learning. What you are teaching and what you are not teaching. Here are some terms to consider definitions for.
> 
> Martial Arts Training
> Self-defense Training
> ...


I don't think consistent definitions exist for most of those, and there is a huge overlap between others - some may even be subsets of others (depending how you define them). To you, what's the importance of getting the correct term?


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 25, 2022)

drop bear said:


>


Disagree strongly on them being all the same. Some overland, yes, some.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 25, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I don't think consistent definitions exist for most of those, and there is a huge overlap between others - some may even be subsets of others (depending how you define them). To you, what's the importance of getting the correct term?


I agree that consistent definitions don't exist, and that's part of the problem. And to be clear, my objective is not to define these for everyone. Rather to have anyone who is interested, consider the differences for themselves. My definition may not be yours ultimately. But the differences are important, regardless what name you attach to them.


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## drop bear (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Disagree strongly on them being all the same. Some overland, yes, some.



Ok. Tell me the situation Mike Tyson would face where he would be at more of a disadvantage than say a specifically trained person?


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 25, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Ok. Tell me the situation Mike Tyson would face where he would be at more of a disadvantage than say a specifically trained person?


Easy. Three guys with AK47s carjacking him. Or someone stealing his bag while he is on his phone at a coffee shop.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I agree that consistent definitions don't exist, and that's part of the problem. And to be clear, my objective is not to define these for everyone. Rather to have anyone who is interested, consider the differences for themselves. My definition may not be yours ultimately. But the differences are important, regardless what name you attach to them.


Again, I ask why - for you - this is important. To me, the distinction of these terms is unimportant. What's important is that those of us teaching know (and are honest with ourselves and our students) what we are teaching, and what the focus of that training is. And that students know what they are training in. Which words are used to convey that isn't important, so getting personal definitions for these terms isn't, either - unless you use them to define what you do.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I find that the longer I do this type of work, certain things become clear. One of those things is how important definitions are to bringing clarity to what you are learning, and what you are not learning. What you are teaching and what you are not teaching. Here are some terms to consider definitions for.
> 
> Martial Arts Training
> Self-defense Training
> ...


Train and teach according to the focus and purpose.
If you want to fight then here are some key training you need to participate in.
If you don't want to fight then drop the fight training and focus on other aspects.

It pretty much boils down to 2 things:
1. If you want to learn how to physically fight, then you have to spar.
2. If you don't want to learn how to fight then there's no need to spar. 

From there everything pretty much works itself out.  This worked for me when I used to teach.  I would just students which path they wanted to take.  Some people don't know what it takes to learn to how to fight using the techniques being taught.  When I brought up sparring some were more than happy to just do #2.   Other's were specifically looking for #1  Even if they were doing it just for exercises.  With sparring you are either attacking or defending and because of that, are gaining some skill sets that can be used in physically fighting.

I'm with drop bear on this one.   The naming conventions is just marketing in an effort to compete against another options for learning how to fight.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Easy. Three guys with AK47s carjacking him. Or someone stealing his bag while he is on his phone at a coffee shop.


The first one, nobody is going to fare well in, except Liam Neeson. The second, what makes you say Tyson would be at a disadvantage over someone specifically trained to deal with fighting with a phone in one hand and coffee in the other?


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 25, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> The first one, nobody is going to fare well in, except Liam Neeson. The second, what makes you say Tyson would be at a disadvantage over someone specifically trained to deal with fighting with a phone in one hand and coffee in the other?


Not true at all. Carjackings are something a great multitude of people have survived. And there is specific training to mitigate this, and to avoid it. I'm no antagonist, so please don't take it that way. But these comments are proving my point. Skill and knowledge at teaching one thing does not equate to skill at teaching a different subject matter.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Easy. Three guys with AK47s carjacking him. Or someone stealing his bag while he is on his phone at a coffee shop.


Both are non-fight scenarios.  Someone stealing your bag and getting car jacked by 3 people with guns.  Someone stealing your bag just depends on when you notice that it's going to be stolen and if you were in a position to stop it anyway.  If you catch both scenarios earlier then you can take non-fighting approach.  For example, don't drive in areas where people are known for carjacking others.  Take preventive measures that make it less inviting to steal your bag.

Neither requires fighting.  But if you want to try to fight your way out of it, Both will take sparring / scenario training.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 25, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Both are non-fight scenarios.  Someone stealing your bag and getting car jacked by 3 people with guns.  Someone stealing your bag just depends on when you notice that it's going to be stolen and if you were in a position to stop it anyway.  If you catch both scenarios earlier then you can take non-fighting approach.  For example, don't drive in areas where people are known for carjacking others.  Take preventive measures that make it less inviting to steal your bag.
> 
> Neither requires fighting.  But if you want to try to fight your way out of it, Both will take sparring / scenario training.


JowGaWolf exactly! Both are not fighting scenarios. Although you certainly could get in a fight over someone stealing your phone, depending on circumstances. Can and should maybe be important to distinguish. But as it pertains to protecting yourself, fighting is but one piece to the puzzle.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Skill and knowledge at teaching one thing does not equate to skill at teaching a different subject matter.


That's different then understanding what the focus is.   If the teacher has no applicable knowledge then it is best to just be open about it.  There is no one organization that give any of these teacher a standard of application knowledge.  Because of that there's no way to regulate that.  This means it's up to the student to make the best choice according to their focus.


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## drop bear (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Easy. Three guys with AK47s carjacking him. Or someone stealing his bag while he is on his phone at a coffee shop.



You feel there is a system of training that handles 3 guys car jacking you with AKs?

And I am pretty sure Mike Tyson is keeping his bag.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 25, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's different then understanding what the focus is.   If the teacher has no applicable knowledge then it is best to just be open about it.  There is no one organization that give any of these teacher a standard of application knowledge.  Because of that there's no way to regulate that.  This means it's up to the student to make the best choice according to their focus.


I agree, but it's hard to be honest if we are unaware of what we don't know. Roughly defining terms allows all of us collectively to have conversations, bring clarity, understanding, and even grow in areas we are weak. But this starts with openness, humility, and a desire to continue to learn.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 25, 2022)

drop bear said:


> You feel there is a system of training that handles 3 guys car jacking you with AKs?
> 
> And I am pretty sure Mike Tyson is keeping his bag.


Respectfully.. Yes, I do. And not everyone is Mike Tyson.


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## drop bear (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Respectfully.. Yes, I do. And not everyone is Mike Tyson.



Doesn't matter. Mike tyson has a few very specific talents. That work in a wide range of circumstances. 

So can punch your head off your shoulders. Is basically fluoride for toothpaste.


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## drop bear (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Respectfully.. Yes, I do. And not everyone is Mike Tyson.



Oh and show us the anti Ak technique if you could.

Might be handy to know.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 25, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Oh and show us the anti Ak technique if you could.
> 
> Might be handy to know.


It might indeed. You sound antagonist, and implying I'm a fool. What would you do if three people with AK47s wanted your vehicle?


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I find that the longer I do this type of work, certain things become clear. One of those things is how important definitions are to bringing clarity to what you are learning, and what you are not learning. What you are teaching and what you are not teaching. Here are some terms to consider definitions for.
> 
> Martial Arts Training
> Self-defense Training
> ...



I will be honest, I do not feel it i necessary to drill down that far to make such specific categories



Gerry Seymour said:


> The first one, nobody is going to fare well in, except Liam Neeson. The second, what makes you say Tyson would be at a disadvantage over someone specifically trained to deal with fighting with a phone in one hand and coffee in the other?



Interesting you should say that. I know a "Taijiquan" teacher, whose daughter now teaches Taijiquan at his school. She was a Sand/sanshou fighter, and a rater good one. 

She was attacked on a street in NYC one night, while walking hone. She was talking on a cell phone and carrying a bag of groceries in the other hand. A guy ran out of an alley and grabbed her by the wait, she instinctively turned and hit the guy in the face, with the hand holding the cell phone, knocking the guy on his butt. He got up and tried again, she hit him again, in the face, with the hand holding the cell phone, he fell again. At that point the guy ran away. She did not drop the bag of groceries or break the cell phone. I wonder how the OP would categorize her training...and to be honest why would you want to, or need to categorize it


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 25, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> I will be honest, I do not feel it i necessary to drill down that far to make such specific categories
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hello Xue

Great question! I would say "personal security training" could have prevented the assault. At the point she became aware of a problem she was in a "self-defense situation." A self-defense situation that is the type of situation where her "martial arts training" helped her. In this situation, based on the totality of the circumstances she would have even been justifed in using "combatives training." If she had been injured "safety training" in applying medical self-aid might have been needed.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 25, 2022)

Gentleman I'm hitting three flights and will be on airplanes for the next 24 hours or so. I might get WiFi, but if not, I will enjoy talking when I can.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I find that the longer I do this type of work, certain things become clear. One of those things is how important definitions are to bringing clarity to what you are learning, and what you are not learning. What you are teaching and what you are not teaching. Here are some terms to consider definitions for.
> 
> Martial Arts Training
> Self-defense Training
> ...


Simply put--there is a fair amount of overlap, but there are critical distinctions per each.

Some example considerations:

--Law
--Human Behavioral profiling and analysis, the "Left of Bang" mindset
--Understanding criminal ambushes and natural lines of drift
--How protecting a "principal" changes the way you implement technique
--Discreet ready positions
--Chaining strikes and lining up opponents
--Weaponology and weapons of opportunity
--Deescalation and pre-fight psychology
--Methods of drawing a weapon, and how to do so discreetly if need-be


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 25, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Simply put--there is a fair amount of overlap, but there are critical distinctions per each.


Simply put, I would agree. Teaching these subjects professionally, the differences become much more important to understand.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Simply put, I would agree. Teaching these subjects professionally, the differences become much more important to understand.


Yes, I edited with elaboration.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 25, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> The first one, nobody is going to fare well in, except Liam Neeson. The second, what makes you say Tyson would be at a disadvantage over someone specifically trained to deal with fighting with a phone in one hand and coffee in the other?
> 
> 
> Jared Traveler said:
> ...



There's a way for everything, and theoretically by a miracle you could pull if off--but unless you got grenades, armed ISR assets and backup--you're basically fucked.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Respectfully.. Yes, I do. And not everyone is Mike Tyson.


Mike Tyson, as I understand, grew up as a gangbanger-- which would mean he probably acquired relevant practical fight knowledge.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> It might indeed. You sound antagonist, and implying I'm a fool. What would you do if three people with AK47s wanted your vehicle?


Ignore him. I looked up old posts on the subject, which he happened to comment on. He doesn't say strictly incorrect things, but he's been rude and argumentative for the sake of it going back years.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 25, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Mike Tyson, as I understand, grew up as a gangbanger-- which would mean he probably acquired relevant practical fight knowledge.





GreenieMeanie said:


> Mike Tyson, as I understand, grew up as a gangbanger-- which would mean he probably acquired relevant practical fight knowledge.


I agree, but there is a big difference between sucker punching someone and ethically and legally defending yourself.


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## isshinryuronin (Jul 25, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> I will be honest, I do not feel it i necessary to drill down that far to make such specific categories
> 
> Interesting you should say that. I know a "Taijiquan" teacher, whose daughter now teaches Taijiquan at his school. She was a Sand/sanshou fighter, and a rater good one.
> 
> She was attacked on a street in NYC one night, while walking hone. She was talking on a cell phone and carrying a bag of groceries in the other hand. A guy ran out of an alley and grabbed her by the wait, she instinctively turned and hit the guy in the face, with the hand holding the cell phone, knocking the guy on his butt. He got up and tried again, she hit him again, in the face, with the hand holding the cell phone, he fell again. At that point the guy ran away. She did not drop the bag of groceries or break the cell phone.* I wonder how the OP would categorize her training*...and to be honest why would you want to, or need to categorize it


Her training could be categorized as this - Reacting with aggressiveness, strength and confidence without hesitation. This category of training eclipses those previously mentioned.  While they are all shades of MA, without this category being trained none of the others matter.


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## lklawson (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Martial Arts Training
> Self-defense Training
> Combatives Training
> Safety Training
> ...


Except when they are.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 25, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Except when they are.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Agreed, but that is largely missing the point. In fact it is the overlap that creates false confidence and misunderstanding. Leading to people not receiving the training they need, or being trained incorrectly.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 25, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Mike Tyson is keeping his bag.


Mike is down to earth about boxing and street fights. I think he would give up the bag of it was in his best interest.  Having kids or being married tends to make his less willing to take things to the extreme. At least for me there have been 5 occasions where the 19 year old me would have gone to the brink of death"cause I don't let people link me.  But that changed when I got married and changed again when I had kids. 

Don't get me wrong I don't have any dislike of violence.   I just see me existence as more value than just me.  People depend on me to have my s- -t together if I'm not around then they will suffer.  I didn't have that mind set in my early 20's.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 25, 2022)

You would not want a cyber security guy, teaching a martial arts class. You would not want a martial artist developing a security plan for someone who receives a threatening text message. Being able to teach a fire drill, or tornado drill does not qualify you to teach self-defense.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Not true at all. Carjackings are something a great multitude of people have survived. And there is specific training to mitigate this, and to avoid it. I'm no antagonist, so please don't take it that way. But these comments are proving my point. Skill and knowledge at teaching one thing does not equate to skill at teaching a different subject matter.


You specified a carjacking with three heavily armed assailants. No single person will fare well against that.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 25, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Mike is down to earth about boxing and street fights. I think he would give up the bag of it was in his best interest.  Having kids or being married tends to make his less willing to take things to the extreme. At least for me there have been 5 occasions where the 19 year old me would have gone to the brink of death"cause I don't let people link me.  But that changed when I got married and changed again when I had kids.
> 
> Don't get me wrong I don't have any dislike of violence.   I just see me existence as more value than just me.  People depend on me to have my s- -t together if I'm not around then they will suffer.  I didn't have that mind set in my early 20's.


I agree. In the hypothetical situation where we celebrate Mike's ability to get his bag back(or another skilled fighter) we forget. He also might get someone else he loves killed over a $65 worth of property in a bag. This is what you get when you think martial arts is the same as security training. Excellent observations JowGaWolf.

And again, most people are not Mike Tyson. But what you do often see is a lot of aggressive people try to get their property back and get hurt in the process.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 25, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> You specified a carjacking with three heavily armed assailants. No single person will fare well against that.


I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be offensive, but it's this type of thinking that proves my point. You are I assume an accomplishment martial artist, but are not qualified to teach someone on how to mitigate a carjacking situation. Please don't take offense, but you realize their are professional classes for unarmed, and untrained people on how to do this? And unarmed, untrained in martial arts people survive carjackings all of the time, aided by their security training.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 25, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> You specified a carjacking with three heavily armed assailants. No single person will fare well against that.





Jared Traveler said:


> I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be offensive, but it's this type of thinking that proves my point. You are I assume an accomplishment martial artist, but are not qualified to teach someone on how to mitigate a carjacking situation. Please don't take offense, but you realize their are professional classes for unarmed, and untrained people on how to do this? And unarmed, untrained in martial arts people survive carjackings all of the time, aided by their security training.


I think you are both using different definitions of fare well.

If by fare well, we mean win a fight/keep your car against these hypothetical people, then yes (gerry), no one will fare well. If by fare well, we mean survive the carjacking and not be hospitalized/killed, then yes (jared), people succeed with that all the time. 

So you guys need to figure out what outcome you're working for to have a discussion about it. 

For my own input, my argument is the same. If I'm going to try to take on 3 carjackers from a seated position, the only way I'm winning that is if I've got some of captain america's super serum. 

However, if I mean to survive, then most likely I'm going to survive. You could argue I need verbal de-escalation skills for that, but 
A) that's not a martial art skill, 
B) that's not something most security trainings actually teach well, and 
C) That's not something you would really need for this particular situation (that Jared came up with). Most of the time a carjacking is occurring, people are not looking to kill the person they're stealing the car from, they're looking to take the car quickly. Especially if they're blazing weapons.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 25, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I think you are both using different definitions of fare well.
> 
> If by fare well, we mean win a fight/keep your car against these hypothetical people, then yes (gerry), no one will fare well. If by fare well, we mean survive the carjacking and not be hospitalized/killed, then yes (jared), people succeed with that all the time.
> 
> ...


Defining success during criminal attacks is critical, I agree. In fact this is a key component of personal security training. However as a martial artist you have a hammer and everything tends to look like a nail. I completely agree that being carjacked by three guys with AK47s is not a situation for martial arts skills. The lack of crossover here is pronounced, as it was intended to be by the example.

I would also agree that most security training is not done well. A big reason for that is that people haven't taken the time to understand the differences needed to effectively teach the subject matter.

Monkey Turned Wolf, you are exactly right.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Easy. Three guys with AK47s carjacking him. Or someone stealing his bag while he is on his phone at a coffee shop.


I replied to the AK portion of this, but I believe Mike Tyson will have a better time with someone trying to steal his bag then most people. He might not have the situational awareness, which could put him at a disadvantage to initially notice it/give the robber a heads up, but I would be shocked if the guy stealing the bag can outrun him, as he used to run (I'm assuming we're talking about when he was active/he still is mostly active), 4 miles every morning. And he's got explosive legs, which means that he's got both the sprint speed to catch someone and the stamina to pursue, along with the power to knock the person out when he does catch up to them and/or intimidate them to drop the bag. 

This is all assuming you're referring to a bag he is not holding, as that makes the whole point moot; People are not likely to take a bag they see mike tyson wearing/holding, and his grip strength (and shoulder strength) is such they wouldn't succeed anyway. Further putting him at an advantage.

All those advantages are a direct result of boxing/boxing training, so he gains 4 advantages (running speed, power, intimidation, grip strength) with one initial disadvantage (situational awareness).


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Defining success during criminal attacks is critical, I agree. In fact this is a key component of personal security training. However as a martial artist you have a hammer and everything tends to look like a nail. I completely agree that being carjacked by three guys with AK47s is not a situation for martial arts skills. The lack of crossover here is pronounced, as it was intended to be by the example.
> 
> I would also agree that most security training is not done well. A big reason for that is that people haven't taken the time to understand the differences needed to effectively teach the subject matter.
> 
> Monkey Turned Wolf, you are exactly right.


For the purpose of this discussion, what would you consider success in that scenario?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> These skills are not the same. It is important to know what you are teaching and learning. Your thoughts?


If we want to learn how to fight, we have to fight. We all try to learn how to land our fists on our opponent's face no matter what system we may train.


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## drop bear (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be offensive, but it's this type of thinking that proves my point. You are I assume an accomplishment martial artist, but are not qualified to teach someone on how to mitigate a carjacking situation. Please don't take offense, but you realize their are professional classes for unarmed, and untrained people on how to do this? And unarmed, untrained in martial arts people survive carjackings all of the time, aided by their security training.



Do they work?


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## lklawson (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Agreed, but that is largely missing the point. In fact it is the overlap that creates false confidence and misunderstanding. Leading to people not receiving the training they need, or being trained incorrectly.


Nah.  Not really.  The problem is really when the training a person receives doesn't really do any of those things well but they believe it does.

But if you want to go "it's way more complex than that," OK then... Each of your categories are rather vague, in-explicit, and, frankly, something of a work.  Self defense training?  Self defense training for what?  In what context?  Where?  When?  Who?  What counts as effective self defense training for a 17th Century French Aristocrat typically armed with a Smallsword who might be required to fight off 3 or more assassins similarly armed (as is alleged of Cirano) could be quite different from a resident of the bad side of Flint today, which is, of course, different from someone riding the bus in Caracas.  Quite honestly, there are *VAST* variations inside each of your categories but, really and truly, getting good one will generally make you pretty good at another.  Do you really think that someone who's decent at Competitive Judo is going to have much a  problem if some tweaker decides to swing a haymaker at them in the parking lot?  Me neither.

Truthfully, the best answer is for each person to really figure out what it is they want out of their martial arts training and then find instruction or direct their training to that.

Oh, and, of course, what if the person training in martial arts isn't doing it for one of your categories?  What if they're interested in just getting a good workout, or maybe they want a  "moving meditation," or what if they are interested in the "artistic expression" of the martial art, or maybe they're interested in a historic martial art that may not have much direct application to any modern idea of your categories (Mounted Lance anyone?), or what if they want a martial art that connects them to their ethnic heritage?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be offensive, but it's this type of thinking that proves my point. You are I assume an accomplishment martial artist, but are not qualified to teach someone on how to mitigate a carjacking situation.


How do you know?

You just said that you assumed his skills and training.  Are you also assuming he has no skills or training in "car jacking defense?"  If so, why do you assume that?  Just because you disagree with him?


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## drop bear (Jul 25, 2022)

Ok. Here is another cool overlap that I was suprised wasn't mentioned.

Deescalation.

And Mike Tyson does one of These but I couldn't find it. So here is Zab Juda.








I assume he has no deescalation skills but cannot even start a fight for some reason.


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## Buka (Jul 25, 2022)

I tried to picture myself in that scenario.....

Three guys with AKs carjack an old man in a Honda Civic.

They can have it, they've already flunked thug school. They'd probably end up accidently shooting themselves.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> You would not want a cyber security guy, teaching a martial arts class.


Ha ha ha I work on an IT help desk and I used to teach martial arts.

I'm sure some people take my classes.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 25, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> However as a martial artist you have a hammer and everything tends to look like a nail.


Not the way I taught classes.  I take a well rounded approach when teaching martial arts because it's more than just fighting.  There's more mental stuff in fighting then what most people realize.   Lots of self mastery involved. Tons of analysis and understanding of body mechanics 

I say this all the time to students.  "The more I learn about fighting, the less it's about fighting. "


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 25, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I replied to the AK portion of this, but I believe Mike Tyson will have a better time with someone trying to steal his bag then most people. He might not have the situational awareness, which could put him at a disadvantage to initially notice it/give the robber a heads up, but I would be shocked if the guy stealing the bag can outrun him, as he used to run (I'm assuming we're talking about when he was active/he still is mostly active), 4 miles every morning. And he's got explosive legs, which means that he's got both the sprint speed to catch someone and the stamina to pursue, along with the power to knock the person out when he does catch up to them and/or intimidate them to drop the bag.
> 
> This is all assuming you're referring to a bag he is not holding, as that makes the whole point moot; People are not likely to take a bag they see mike tyson wearing/holding, and his grip strength (and shoulder strength) is such they wouldn't succeed anyway. Further putting him at an advantage.
> 
> All those advantages are a direct result of boxing/boxing training, so he gains 4 advantages (running speed, power, intimidation, grip strength) with one initial disadvantage (situational awareness).


Last point for this-after posting I took a look again at the OP. You list:
_*Martial Arts Training
Self-defense Training
Combatives Training
Safety Training*_
*Personal Security Training*
As the different realms.

The carjacking could fit into a couple of those realms, but not sure where having your bag stolen fits into.
*Martial Arts Training: *Not a direct relation, IMO. It's related, as those skills transfer over a bit, but it's different than what most martial arts teach/train for.
*Self-defense Training: *This isn't really self-defense either. You're defended by simply not engaging.
*Combatives Training: *This is military training right? I suppose retention would fall under hear, but only if he were holding the bag, not if the bag was at a table and he was waiting in line or something along those lines. 
*Safety Training/Personal Security Training: *I must be missing something because these both sound like the same thing to me. And neither are really relevant to a stolen bag-both would say leave the bag alone because you don't know if the robber has a gun, or stole your bag with the intent to lure you out of the store.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 25, 2022)

Buka said:


> I tried to picture myself in that scenario.....
> 
> Three guys with AKs carjack an old man in a Honda Civic.
> 
> They can have it, they've already flunked thug school. They'd probably end up accidently shooting themselves.


I've dealt with one gun.  You pretty much walk a thin line.  You don't want to look to weak because you might get shot.  You don't want to look too strong because now you are a threat and you get shot.  You don't want to piss then off because you get shot.  You don't want to step to far away because you get shot.  You don't want to step too close because you get shot.

Youend up talking to buy time and an opportunity to walk away alive or to get a jump on the gun. Butdon't focus too hard on being the gun or you might get shot.


----------



## Buka (Jul 25, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've dealt with one gun.  You pretty much walk a thin line.  You don't want to look to weak because you might get shot.  You don't want to look too strong because now you are a threat and you get shot.  You don't want to piss then off because you get shot.  You don't want to step to far away because you get shot.  You don't want to step too close because you get shot.
> 
> Youend up talking to buy time and an opportunity to walk away alive or to get a jump on the gun. Butdon't focus too hard on being the gun or you might get shot.


Unfortunately, I've had guns pointed at me before. It sucked every time.

But one time, in our early twenties, three of us were in Florida, went to the everglades, and had shots fired into the bushes near us. (We think we stumbled onto a drug operation.)

We ran so fast, scared out of our minds. Jumped in the car, took off like a bat out of hell, drove three hours to Key West at eighty miles an hour, changed clothes, hid the car, and drank all night, still scared shipless.

Our courage knew no bounds.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 25, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> I will be honest, I do not feel it i necessary to drill down that far to make such specific categories
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am not into quoting myself, but there are days, due to 3 eye surgeries that my eyes simply do not work well when it comes to proof reading, and there are so many errors in that I feel I need to correct it

_Interesting you should say that. I know a "Taijiquan" teacher, whose daughter now teaches Taijiquan at his school. She was a Sanda/sanshou fighter, and a rather good one.

She was attacked on a street in NYC one night, while walking home. She was talking on her cell phone and carrying a bag of groceries in the other hand. A guy ran out of an alley and grabbed her by the waist, she instinctively turned and hit the guy in the face, with the hand holding the cell phone, knocking the guy on his butt. He got up and tried again, she hit him again, in the face, with the hand holding the cell phone, he fell again. At that point the guy ran away. She did not drop the grocery bag or break the cell phone. I wonder how the OP would categorize her training...and to be honest why would you want to, or need to categorize it_

Sorry about all the original typographical errors


----------



## Jared Traveler (Jul 26, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I replied to the AK portion of this, but I believe Mike Tyson will have a better time with someone trying to steal his bag then most people. He might not have the situational awareness, which could put him at a disadvantage to initially notice it/give the robber a heads up, but I would be shocked if the guy stealing the bag can outrun him, as he used to run (I'm assuming we're talking about when he was active/he still is mostly active), 4 miles every morning. And he's got explosive legs, which means that he's got both the sprint speed to catch someone and the stamina to pursue, along with the power to knock the person out when he does catch up to them and/or intimidate them to drop the bag.
> 
> This is all assuming you're referring to a bag he is not holding, as that makes the whole point moot; People are not likely to take a bag they see mike tyson wearing/holding, and his grip strength (and shoulder strength) is such they wouldn't succeed anyway. Further putting him at an advantage.
> 
> All those advantages are a direct result of boxing/boxing training, so he gains 4 advantages (running speed, power, intimidation, grip strength) with one initial disadvantage (situational awareness).


Right, my original point was regarding awareness and accountability, visually and physical for your personal property to avoid the theft. In other words Mike's boxing training does him no good if he is on his phone and does not see the bag stole.


----------



## Jared Traveler (Jul 26, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Nah.  Not really.  The problem is really when the training a person receives doesn't really do any of those things well but they believe it does.
> 
> But if you want to go "it's way more complex than that," OK then... Each of your categories are rather vague, in-explicit, and, frankly, something of a work.  Self defense training?  Self defense training for what?  In what context?  Where?  When?  Who?  What counts as effective self defense training for a 17th Century French Aristocrat typically armed with a Smallsword who might be required to fight off 3 or more assassins similarly armed (as is alleged of Cirano) could be quite different from a resident of the bad side of Flint today, which is, of course, different from someone riding the bus in Caracas.  Quite honestly, there are *VAST* variations inside each of your categories but, really and truly, getting good one will generally make you pretty good at another.  Do you really think that someone who's decent at Competitive Judo is going to have much a  problem if some tweaker decides to swing a haymaker at them in the parking lot?  Me neither.
> 
> ...


Hey brother, we are saying a lot of the same things here.


----------



## Jared Traveler (Jul 26, 2022)

Buka said:


> I tried to picture myself in that scenario.....
> 
> Three guys with AKs carjack an old man in a Honda Civic.
> 
> They can have it, they've already flunked thug school. They'd probably end up accidently shooting themselves.


Exactly Buka, and that's a logical conclusion. In the moment, under acute stress, sometimes it's hard to think. Even people on this sight have expressed it's a no win situation. The training helps prepared the mind to respond. And this applies to everyone in the vehicle. Also it's not always a simple matter of just giving them the vehicle. There can be other X factors, like having kids in the car. This all plays into specific security training.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 26, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Last point for this-after posting I took a look again at the OP. You list:
> _*Martial Arts Training
> Self-defense Training
> Combatives Training
> ...


Thank you Monkey for working through my words. My 9 hour flight is done, one more short flight and I'm home! 

Safety training is typically unrelated to human aggression. Think fire drill, tornado drill, first aid, how to put out a grease fire. This has very little to do with the martial arts. But for me I would consider medical training under safety training. Medical training, specifically TCCC type courses are very important to have, to be well rounded in your ability to survive violent encounters.

I also find safety training is a great place to start training kids.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 26, 2022)

Context matters a lot. Context means details are important. In certain parts of the world a carjacking can turn into a captivity scenario easily. An even different skill set is needed now, sometimes different training contextualized to the region you are taken in.

There is not a lot of overlap in martial arts training to captivity survival training. Granted most people here will not need this training, but many people in the world do.

I'm fully aware that some people just want a good workout. We could throw fitness training as a subset of martial arts training. Great! But don't confuse it with quality self-defense training. 

Can martial arts practiced for fitness be used for self-defense? Yes! Effectively to in many cases! So can learning to swing a hammer, or hunting with a rifle. But it when you get into the details where the weakness becomes apparent.

For instance regarding self-defense. Morally and legally defending yourself is an important component of a well rounded self-defense program. Okay you can load, shoot and hit your target with a shotgun. But you never learned how to do it with a flashlight to identify your target as part of the target engagement process. Now you shot your daughter trying to climb in a window of your house instead of a burglar(this happens). While shooting the gun hunting has direct application to the activity of personal protection, a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Context and details matter. In my opinion at least. Success in an activity, especially violent encounters, means sweating the details.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> You specified a carjacking with three heavily armed assailants. No single person will fare well against that.


He's right, but it's not something you learn from any MA. One thing people are taught to do, which has been caught on camera for both jackings and attempted abductions, is driving right through them (and there's good ways and bad ways to do that, which have to be taught by people with relevant experience)--but it takes a bit of training or life experience to recongnize the signs, which brings us back to "left of bang," human behavioral profiling and analysis.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 26, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> He's right, but it's not something you learn from any MA. One thing people are taught to do, which is been caught on camera for both jackings and attempted abductions, is driving right through them (and there's good ways and bad ways to do that, which have to be taught by people with relevant experience)--but it takes a bit of training or life experience to recongnize the signs, which brings us back to "left of bang," human behavioral profiling and analysis.


Again, this is where context matters a LOT. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Has this happened to anyone in your area before? Did they stop? Did they attempt to drive through? 

This would be apart of a threat assessment of types of crimes in your area, or an area you are traveling to. This can be important to understanding how to best respond. But you are certainly thinking and that's great!


----------



## Jared Traveler (Jul 26, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> For the purpose of this discussion, what would you consider success in that scenario?


The goal in most scenarios regardless if force is used or not should be de-escalation in my opinion. I might accomplish de-escalation through words, through use of force, or through compliance. It all depends.

In this case de-escalation through compliance would be your most likely way to problem solve. By the nature of the scenario, it's not a homicide, it's a carjacking. Let them have the vehicle to de-escalate the situation.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Again, this is where context matters a LOT. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Has this happened to anyone in your area before? Did they stop? Did they attempt to drive through?
> 
> This would be apart of a threat assessment of types of crimes in your area, or an area you are traveling to. This can be important to understanding how to best respond. But you are certainly thinking and that's great!


Thinking? Lol, this is a known method for being ambushed in the car taught in evasive driving courses, and there is dashcam footage of people doing it.

Researching a given area for types of crime and criminal TTP is yet another discipline.


----------



## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Last point for this-after posting I took a look again at the OP. You list:
> _*Martial Arts Training
> Self-defense Training
> Combatives Training
> ...


Combatives isn't really "military training." It's basically "what's the quickest way to deal with this threat," and you can throw in all sorts of variables that change how it goes.

"Personal security training" sounds like it's more in the realm of "Gray Man Theory," and "Left of Bang," basically not bringing attention to yourself and staying out of bad situations.


----------



## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've dealt with one gun.  You pretty much walk a thin line.  You don't want to look to weak because you might get shot.  You don't want to look too strong because now you are a threat and you get shot.  You don't want to piss then off because you get shot.  You don't want to step to far away because you get shot.  You don't want to step too close because you get shot.
> 
> Youend up talking to buy time and an opportunity to walk away alive or to get a jump on the gun. Butdon't focus too hard on being the gun or you might get shot.


Basically, you want to have Resting Ryan Gosling Face.


----------



## Jared Traveler (Jul 26, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Thinking? Lol, this is a known method for being ambushed in the car taught in evasive driving courses, and there is dashcam footage of people doing it.
> 
> Researching a given area for types of crime and criminal TTP is yet another discipline.


I agree. Evasive driving, driving as it pertains to ambush survival are all legit skills to aquire. All I'm saying is(and I think we are on the same page here) is find out what is working in your area, if possible, through a threat assessment. That's not always possible, or relevant, I understand that.

You are vulnerable when you stop and try to comply, you are also potentially vulnerable when you try to drive out of a situation. So it comes down to staying calm and thinking under stress, making decisions based on the details of what is happening. I think we agree on this.

I feel like I'm deviating from the point of the original post, which ultimately wasn't about carjackings, so I will try and get back on task though.

The last thing I will try and say about mitigating a carjacking, is to keep in mind that when it happens, you may not be the one driving the vehicle. That's a big problem if your only plan is to drive out of it.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I agree. Evasive driving, driving as it pertains to ambush survival are all legit skills to aquire. All I'm saying is(and I think we are on the same page here) is find out what is working in your area, if possible, through a threat assessment. That's not always possible, or relevant, I understand that.
> 
> You are vulnerable when you stop and try to comply, you are also potentially vulnerable when you try to drive out of a situation. So it comes down to staying come and thinking under stress, making decisions based on the details of what is happening. I think we agree on this.
> 
> ...


If you are somewhere at risk, you should have researched in advance what those risks are and how locals deal with them. If carjackings are a thing, you shouldn't let anyone drive you don't trust in that situation.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 26, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Combatives isn't really "military training." It's basically "what's the quickest way to deal with this threat," and you can throw in all sorts of variables that change how it goes.
> 
> "Personal security training" sounds like it's more in the realm of "Gray Man Theory," and "Left of Bang," basically not bringing attention to yourself and staying out of bad situations.


Much of security training is left of bang called "avoidance" but also much of it is right of bang called "mitigation." Sometimes you can mitigate with "martial arts" other times it might take firearms training, which would fall under a well rounded "self-defense" program, depending on your theology of violence. Sometimes you mitigate with your words, or by simply walking away.

But I would say personal security is the umbrella that many of these other skills fall within, assuming your training is comprehensive. Both left and right of bang.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 26, 2022)

Combatives vs self-defense. The distinction here is important, I think. There is more crossover here, but the differences are critical to understand. I think in reality there are very few true combatives programs being taught to civilians. There has been a lot of self-defense blended into the combatives programs. To the point where you find people claiming to teach combatives, but in reality they are actually trying to understand and teach self-defense through a combatives system. But without a deep understanding of how to teach self-defense.


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## drop bear (Jul 26, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Combatives vs self-defense. The distinction here is important, I think. There is more crossover here, but the differences are critical to understand. I think in reality there are very few true combatives programs being taught to civilians. There has been a lot of self-defense blended into the combatives programs. To the point where you find people claiming to teach combatives, but in reality they are actually trying to understand and teach self-defense through a combatives system. But without a deep understanding of how to teach seself-defense.



On the flip side the adopt a cop program which takes police away from specialist combatives or self defence and putting the instruction in the hands of civilian martial artists. Seems to be working better.





__





						Adopt-A-Cop | Checkmat Lynchburg
					






					www.checkmatvirginia.com


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> On the flip side the adopt a cop program which takes police away from specialist combatives or self defence and putting the instruction in the hands of civilian martial artists. Seems to be working better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you referring to updating antiquated, ineffective, government approved watered down, police department defensive tactics programs? And replacing them with programs that were not created in the 1970s, based on what we know now that actually works? Bringing in civilian instructors who partener with law enforcement personal, to create specific up-to-date programs that work for cops? Taking into account their use of force requirements, duty belt and vests worn? Taking into account that they need survival techniques, and control and arrest techniques? If so yes, this is great. And also exactly in line with my point on how context and details matter.

If you think law enforcement is officially letting just anyone teach them martial arts, based on what people are learning at the dojo down the street (because it's all the same) you are out of touch with what is actually happening.


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## drop bear (Jul 26, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Are you referring to updating antiquated, ineffective, government approved watered down, police department defensive tactics programs? And replacing them with programs that were not created in the 1970s, based on what we know now that actually works? Bringing in civilian instructors who partener with law enforcement personal, to create specific up-to-date programs that work for cops? Taking into account their use of force requirements, duty belt and vests worn? Taking into account that they need survival techniques, and control and arrest techniques? If so yes, this is great. And also exactly in line with my point on how context and details matter.
> 
> If you think law enforcement is officially letting just anyone teach them martial arts, based on what people are learning at the dojo down the street (because it's all the same) you are out of touch with what is actually happening.



No. I am talking about cops doing BJJ. And that being so much better than what they were learning that specifics don't really matter.


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## drop bear (Jul 26, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Are you referring to updating antiquated, ineffective, government approved watered down, police department defensive tactics programs? And replacing them with programs that were not created in the 1970s, based on what we know now that actually works? Bringing in civilian instructors who partener with law enforcement personal, to create specific up-to-date programs that work for cops? Taking into account their use of force requirements, duty belt and vests worn? Taking into account that they need survival techniques, and control and arrest techniques? If so yes, this is great. And also exactly in line with my point on how context and details matter.
> 
> If you think law enforcement is officially letting just anyone teach them martial arts, based on what people are learning at the dojo down the street (because it's all the same) you are out of touch with what is actually happening.



Also. Why do you think police were doing those garbage systems?


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> No. I am talking about cops doing BJJ. And that being so much better than what they were learning that specifics don't really matter.


The specifics don't matter? As I said, I'm sorry but my previous statement stands.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Also. Why do you think police were doing those garbage systems?


Great question, but way off topic from my original post. On another thread I might dive into unrelated police topics. Even though this is probably a waist of my time. But for the purpose of this conversation, police defensive tactics, police firearms training, police use of force, police scenario training, police room clearing tactics, all of it is contextualized to the specific job at hand.

Details and nuances matter if you are going to effectively teach a subject matter.


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## drop bear (Jul 26, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> The specifics don't matter? As I said, I'm sorry but my previous statement stands.



The point is police had a industry specific system. The moved to a more generic one.

What do you think the reason for that was?


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The point is police had a industry specific system. The moved to a more generic one.
> 
> What do you think the reason for that was?


Hey these are fantastic questions, of which I have a lot of thoughts on. PM me or start a thread on it. I don't think it's a bad question, I just think it will distract from what I'm trying to talk about here.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 26, 2022)

..o.


Buka said:


> Unfortunately, I've had guns pointed at me before. It sucked every time.
> 
> But one time, in our early twenties, three of us were in Florida, went to the everglades, and had shots fired into the bushes near us. (We think we stumbled onto a drug operation.)
> 
> ...


Courage was in your feet and it knew a lot of bounds that day.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Hey these are fantastic questions, of which I have a lot of thoughts on. PM me or start a thread on it. I don't think it's a bad question, I just think it will distract from what I'm trying to talk about here.


The reality of, well, reality based fighting programs, is that people get hurt before anyone learns.

Student: "How do you know that a stab to the left ventricle is a fight-stopper?"

Instructor: "Because I've personally witnessed it in the field, every coroners report with that injury points in the same direction, and you find countless CCTV videos of it."


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Are you referring to updating antiquated, ineffective, government approved watered down, police department defensive tactics programs? And replacing them with programs that were not created in the 1970s, based on what we know now that actually works? Bringing in civilian instructors who partener with law enforcement personal, to create specific up-to-date programs that work for cops? Taking into account their use of force requirements, duty belt and vests worn? Taking into account that they need survival techniques, and control and arrest techniques? If so yes, this is great. And also exactly in line with my point on how context and details matter.
> 
> If you think law enforcement is officially letting just anyone teach them martial arts, based on what people are learning at the dojo down the street (because it's all the same) you are out of touch with what is actually happening.


People greatly overestimate how in touch with reality LEO admins are, in terms of where they allocate resources. Good combatives programs are expensive, and gyms with instructors certified in them are not common--thus the next best thing is local BJJ.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 26, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> People greatly overestimate how in touch with reality LEO admins are, in terms of where they allocate resources. Good combatives programs are expensive, and gyms with instructors certified in them are not common--thus the next best thing is local BJJ.


Yup. Part of it comes down to quality control. It's easy to quality control BJJ-belts have a specific meaning and tournaments, visitors and visiting instructors keep the schools in check. It's much tougher to keep quality control in LEO programs, so while it may have a higher ceiling for relevancy/usefulness in the field, there is a much lower floor for those outcomes.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Yup. Part of it comes down to quality control. It's easy to quality control BJJ-belts have a specific meaning and tournaments, visitors and visiting instructors keep the schools in check. It's much tougher to keep quality control in LEO programs, so while it may have a higher ceiling for relevancy/usefulness in the field, there is a much lower floor for those outcomes.


The best thing is independent contractors, who are competing with each other on R&D, and who are informed by students who've survived new evolutions in the field. 

A lot of people died or got seriously injured, before the modern paradigm of weapons-based training evolved into what it is.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 26, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> The best thing is independent contractors, who are competing with each other on R&D, and who are informed by students who've survived new evolutions in the field.
> 
> A lot of people died or got seriously injured, before the modern paradigm of weapons-based training evolved into what it is.


The issue with that, is that they don't have to be the best at R&D. They just have to appear capable (likely to someone unsure of what to look for), and offer the best pricing. So you could have the best instructor in the state next door, but hire this other guy who is more charismatic, says a few buzzwords, and costs half the price.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> The issue with that, is that they don't have to be the best at R&D. They just have to appear capable (likely to someone unsure of what to look for), and offer the best pricing. So you could have the best instructor in the state next door, but hire this other guy who is more charismatic, says a few buzzwords, and costs half the price.


That is the issue with the RBSD and TMA communities in a nutshell--people who don't know better fall for marketing. RBSD has the bigger problem, because it has to be informed by modern fighting experiences, and not by lineage. Your only options are to drop several 100$ to go train with the known best, be lucky with geography, or train remote (which is only useful if your fundamentals are solid enough to understand what they're teaching).


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 26, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> You would not want a cyber security guy, teaching a martial arts class.


Unless they are also a martial artist.


Jared Traveler said:


> You would not want a martial artist developing a security plan for someone who receives a threatening text message.


Unless they do personal protection.


Jared Traveler said:


> Being able to teach a fire drill, or tornado drill does not qualify you to teach self-defense.


Neither does it disqualify you.

I spent 40 years in emergency medicine. About 9 years of that was spent in an air ambulance doing anything from High Angle rescue, to search and recovery, to inter-facility transport. I have a degree in nursing and a masters in human physiology. 

I also started training 50+ years ago. I am qualified to teach martial arts classes. I've been doing so for the last 15-ish years.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 26, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> That is the issue with the RBSD and TMA communities in a nutshell--people who don't know better fall for marketing. RBSD has the bigger problem, because it has to be informed by modern fighting experiences, and not by lineage. Your only options are to drop several 100$ to go train with the known best, be lucky with geography, or train remote (which is only useful if your fundamentals are solid enough to understand what they're teaching).


Which is exactly why the adopt a cop type programs are good alternatives/supplements to the training cops are officially given.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 26, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Which is exactly why the adopt a cop type programs are good alternatives/supplements to the training cops are officially given.


note for @GreenieMeanie since tone is tough to tell online, and most discussions are arguments. I'm not actually disagreeing with you here, more supplementing your point..in the same way bjj can supplement rbsd.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 26, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Unless they are also a martial artist.
> 
> Unless they do personal protection.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with any of this. That's awesome Dirty Dog!


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> note for @GreenieMeanie since tone is tough to tell online, and most discussions are arguments. I'm not actually disagreeing with you here, more supplementing your point..in the same way bjj can supplement rbsd.


Don't worry--the only argumentative *** driven to win, that I've encountered on the matter so far, is Drop Bear.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> note for @GreenieMeanie since tone is tough to tell online, and most discussions are arguments. I'm not actually disagreeing with you here, more supplementing your point..in the same way bjj can supplement rbsd.


I believe that the MMAs set the foundation, and good RBSD shows you how to weak the MMA for a given situation.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 26, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Don't worry--the only argumentative *** driven to win, that I've encountered on the matter so far, is Drop Bear.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


>





Dirty Dog said:


>


In this context, who represents the client?


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## drop bear (Jul 26, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Hey these are fantastic questions, of which I have a lot of thoughts on. PM me or start a thread on it. I don't think it's a bad question, I just think it will distract from what I'm trying to talk about here.





Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Yup. Part of it comes down to quality control. It's easy to quality control BJJ-belts have a specific meaning and tournaments, visitors and visiting instructors keep the schools in check. It's much tougher to keep quality control in LEO programs, so while it may have a higher ceiling for relevancy/usefulness in the field, there is a much lower floor for those outcomes.



Quality control was basically where I was going with that.. which leads back to the toothpaste skit.

Most of the specifics are theoretical rather than practical.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I find that the longer I do this type of work, certain things become clear. One of those things is how important definitions are to bringing clarity to what you are learning, and what you are not learning. What you are teaching and what you are not teaching. Here are some terms to consider definitions for.
> 
> Martial Arts Training
> Self-defense Training
> ...







All of it in one drill.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I find that the longer I do this type of work, certain things become clear. One of those things is how important definitions are to bringing clarity to what you are learning, and what you are not learning. What you are teaching and what you are not teaching. Here are some terms to consider definitions for.
> 
> Martial Arts Training
> Self-defense Training
> ...


----------



## drop bear (Jul 26, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> All of it in one drill.


Theoretical. 


So for example. The only real part of that scenario was a portion of the fight.

Everything else was staged. It may have been staged realistically or unrealistically but it wasn't a real competitive drill.

I mean why did he walk down that hall way in the first place?


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Theoretical.
> 
> 
> So for example. The only real part of that scenario was a portion of the fight.
> ...





drop bear said:


> Theoretical.
> 
> 
> So for example. The only real part of that scenario was a portion of the fight.
> ...


Ok Drop Bear, I will humor you--if you engage in logical fallacies, then I won't waste my time with you any further.

It's not susposed to be a competitive drill. That's not how this works. The only examples of truly "competitive drills" in RBSD are grappling for a knife or gun (as demonstrated in the video you conveniently didn't comment on), and what are essentially airsoft or simmunition matches (which is something military and law enforcement use to simulate gunfights). They are great for teaching you technique, but they don't help you with the rest.
Project Gecko

There are aggressors, defenders, and bystanders. The aggressors and bystanders are to behave a particular way, and the defender has to react accordingly, and they have to adapt to the defender. If the defender does something stupid, the aggressor will react in way that would kill him or innocent bystanders in reality, cops may kill him, etcetera. You can not competitively test edged weapons, but once you've been tapped in vital areas, you can assume that's a hit. If you've tapped with a training knife in the upper chest area, neck, or inner thigh, that's considered fatal, nearly instant endgame, as it would be if it was a real knife.

This is a drill that tests your situational awareness, deciding whether or not to engage, your opportunity to fight, your draw, how you manouver with a weapon, and how you deal with police and bystanders.


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## Buka (Jul 26, 2022)

I’ve been involved with teaching DT since 1979. Sure has been an interesting, and strange, journey.

At the beginning, almost all of the DT instructors I encountered were big, strong men. Most of them, not all, but most, taught techniques that were easy for other big, strong men to do correctly and that might actually work. That wasn’t the case for us smaller guys, or older officers, or small, introverted females.

Fortunately for everyone, a lot of that has changed over the years.

Here’s an example of some of the things we had to go through in Massachusetts. The governing body for DT certification at the time was the Massachusetts Criminal Justice Training Council. We would get certified, then re-certified by them every couple years.

So, one time (early nineties) they did a nation wide search for someone who would be in the position to certify all other officers. I put in for it, but was told “Oh, we’re doing a nationwide search. We’re going to get the best!” And I thought “sure you will, how silly of me.”

So they hire a guy out of Houston PD, Howard L. 

I’m working at the Boston PD Academy at the time, part time, as well as my Law Enforcement job full time. Myself and two other really good DT instructors are with me at the Academy. We were all approaching the time for re-certification. So they send Howard L to the Academy. He tells us, “I’ve read your files, know you’re all experienced, so I want you to go through your entire DT course, I’ll observe and ask questions when I have them.”

You could already smell the rat.

So we spent three days going through everything, having a ball, while Howard watched, and asked silly questions every now and then. He then re-certified us.

A week later we learned that Howard L had been fired from the Houston Police Department for various misdeeds, all of them pretty bad. And completely fabricated his resume. He had never taught DT in his life. The damn fool from Mass Criminal Justice never bothered to check on Howard, no vetting, not even a phone call.

So, I’m at work, sitting across from the head of our Legal Department, and I call the head of Mass Criminal Justice, the guy who did the “nationwide search.” I tell him, “we have a big problem” and explain to him that we are not certified because the person who certified us was a phony. He tells us, “Oh, it’s okay, I okayed the certification.”

I said, “Sir, you’re a moron.” Then the head of legal took the phone and told him the same thing.

We then were sent to FLETC, got certified, and everything was okay.

Years later I told my bosses I wanted to completely redesign our entire DT course. They were not happy. I told them, “Just come to my dojo, any night between Monday and Friday, bring your workout clothes and I’ll show you why.”

They actually came, the Section Head, a captain, two Lts and a sergeant. I was pleasantly surprised.  They worked out with the guest instructor that week. Rickson Gracie. My bosses left scratching their heads, asking me “How the hell does he do all that stuff? And, yes, redesign anything you want, just get me an autographed T-shirt, please.”

It was kind of funny. But that's how our DT program got straightened out.


----------



## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

Buka said:


> I’ve been involved with teaching DT since 1979. Sure has been an interesting, and strange, journey.
> 
> At the beginning, almost all of the DT instructors I encountered were big, strong men. Most of them, not all, but most, taught techniques that were easy for other big, strong men to do correctly and that might actually work. That wasn’t the case for us smaller guys, or older officers, or small, introverted females.
> 
> ...


Not quite the same situation, but parallel themes:

I'm aware of an instance in which a police SWAT unit came to an ex-SEAL for NVG gunfighting and CQB. This really didn't make sense, given the environment they worked in, but what the hell? Upon giving them his price, a few $100 per officer, the department head rejected the offer--because they didn't have the budget. It boggled his mind, that the admin found the money for NVGs they didn't really need, but couldn't afford the training to use them.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 26, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Ok Drop Bear, I will humor you--if you engage in logical fallacies, then I won't waste my time with you any further.
> 
> It's not susposed to be a competitive drill. That's not how this works. The only examples of truly "competitive drills" in RBSD are grappling for a knife or gun (as demonstrated in the video you conveniently didn't comment on), and what are essentially airsoft or simmunition matches (which is something military and law enforcement use to simulate gunfights). They are great for teaching you technique, but they don't help you with the rest.
> Project Gecko
> ...



So it is theoretical.


----------



## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> So it is theoretical.


The environmental variables, the manner in which the aggressor initiates, the verbal engagement with the aggressor, the technique against the knife, the target placement with the knife, the fact that the aggressor pretty much immediately drops after being "stabbed" in the armpit/shoulder/neck/back of neck, the interaction with the bystander, and the manner of conversation with the "police"--are not theoretical.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> So it is theoretical.


You are just on a campaign to disprove RBSD in whatever way possible, like a lawyer, and I don't know why.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 26, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be offensive, but it's this type of thinking that proves my point. You are I assume an accomplishment martial artist, but are not qualified to teach someone on how to mitigate a carjacking situation. Please don't take offense, but you realize their are professional classes for unarmed, and untrained people on how to do this? And unarmed, untrained in martial arts people survive carjackings all of the time, aided by their security training.


Survive, so I assume you mean just give the car up. Which is the only sane answer. Why then do you think Tyson is ill-equipped for that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 26, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I think you are both using different definitions of fare well.
> 
> If by fare well, we mean win a fight/keep your car against these hypothetical people, then yes (gerry), no one will fare well. If by fare well, we mean survive the carjacking and not be hospitalized/killed, then yes (jared), people succeed with that all the time.
> 
> ...


I was going from his assertion that someone specially trained would fare better than Mike Tyson. That seems to imply more than just survival, since Iton Mike could probably give his car up as easily as I could.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 26, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> If you are somewhere at risk, you should have researched in advance what those risks are and how locals deal with them. If carjackings are a thing, you shouldn't let anyone drive you don't trust in that situation.


That assumes any given person knows someone trained or experienced enough to be trusted with that situation. Most don’t.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> That assumes any given person knows someone trained or experienced enough to be trusted with that situation. Most don’t.


I mean..this is effectively a thread on tactical training, which is a field with sub-disciplines. The average person doesn’t even know how to indentify and categorize pre-predation behaviors in the moment.

The statement implies, that if you don’t fit the category, then perhaps you should be the one driving.


----------



## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I was going from his assertion that someone specially trained would fare better than Mike Tyson. That seems to imply more than just survival, since Iton Mike could probably give his car up as easily as I could.


Some people have lived very comfortable lives, and the thought wouldn’t cross their mind.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Survive, so I assume you mean just give the car up. Which is the only sane answer. Why then do you think Tyson is ill-equipped for that.


He doesn’t. Drop Bear was doing the “MMA or bah” speach, and he was pointing out that pro-level boxing skills aren’t necessarily going to help you in this situation.


----------



## Jared Traveler (Jul 26, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


>


This is probably a great weapons disarm class. That's part of the problem though, it leaves the student feeling that to survive the carjacking, I need to wrestle over a loaded gun. It's good skill to have(you might needed it in a carjacking), but that's not the same thing as teaching realistically how to survive a carjacking. You are actually teaching people to escalate an economic crime, into a situation where you get shot.


----------



## Jared Traveler (Jul 26, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I was going from his assertion that someone specially trained would fare better than Mike Tyson. That seems to imply more than just survival, since Iton Mike could probably give his car up as easily as I could.


Right, while any idiot can just give up his car, there can be a lot more to it than that. Again, different skill set.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 26, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> You are just on a campaign to disprove RBSD in whatever way possible, like a lawyer, and I don't know why.



I don't have to disprove RSBD.

It has to prove itself.


----------



## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I don't have to disprove RSBD.
> 
> It has to prove itself.


It already has—CCTV, phone cameras, hospital records, law enforcement records, military records.

There’s also the stories of people we know personally, who’ve been through street fights.

Modern gunfighting, the military’s CQB courses, and knife-fighting could not exist in their current forms, if your assertion was true.

I do not get your problem.


----------



## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> This is probably a great weapons disarm class. That's part of the problem though, it leaves the student feeling that to survive the carjacking, I need to wrestle over a loaded gun. It's good skill to have(you might needed it in a carjacking), but that's not the same thing as teaching realistically how to survive a carjacking. You are actually teaching people to escalate an economic crime, into a situation where you get shot.


I was always taught to not try anything, until I there were cues I wasn’t getting out alive.

Any instructor who doesn’t emphasize that is probably not a good instructor.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 27, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> I was always taught to not try anything, until I there were cues I wasn’t getting out alive.
> 
> Any instructor who doesn’t emphasize that is probably not a good instructor.


I agree. Also keep in mind that clue is hard to nail down. It might be simply prior knowledge, leading up to the weapon being presented.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I agree. Also keep in mind that clue is hard to nail down. It might be simply prior knowledge, leading up to the weapon being presented.


Which is why it is essential to be taught accordingly by qualified instructors. I was always taught:

a) Pay attention to escalating aggressive behavior

b) Never get in the car

c) Being asked to kneel is typically a death sentence


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## drop bear (Jul 27, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> It already has—CCTV, phone cameras, hospital records, law enforcement records, military records.
> 
> There’s also the stories of people we know personally, who’ve been through street fights.
> 
> ...



Why couldn't they exist?

And untrained people win fights.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 27, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Which is exactly why the adopt a cop type programs are good alternatives/supplements to the training cops are officially given.



What I found interesting Is that they are a generic system. So you basically are just sponsored to train at whatever club is going in the area.(sort of)

Now having a definite view regarding industry training I always had a bias that this was going to be the case. 

But the figures are starting to support that. 

And hopefully it forces the industry guys to lift their game a bit.


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## drop bear (Jul 27, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> The environmental variables, the manner in which the aggressor initiates, the verbal engagement with the aggressor, the technique against the knife, the target placement with the knife, the fact that the aggressor pretty much immediately drops after being "stabbed" in the armpit/shoulder/neck/back of neck, the interaction with the bystander, and the manner of conversation with the "police"--are not theoretical.



So then they did all that stuff. And were not acting that stuff because theoretically it is how that scenario plays out?


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Why couldn't they exist?


Because the only instances in which lethal weapons are tested the way you desire, is in street fights, gang turf wars, counter-abduction, law enforcement raids, war, and counter-terrorism. These incidents are recorded, and debriefed on, so the relevant parties learn from them.



drop bear said:


> So then they did all that stuff. And were not acting that stuff because theoretically it is how that scenario plays out?



Military and police special operations do very similar scenario training.

CAG/Delta/ArmySOF doing hostage rescue drill

Former IDF Training EU police special operations


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 27, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Which is why it is essential to be taught accordingly by qualified instructors. I was always taught:
> 
> a) Pay attention to escalating aggressive behavior
> 
> ...


I would be careful with B. and C.

B. Is highly contextualized depending on where you are on the planet. Also I would never say never.

C. Is simply not the case. Regardless lots of specifics to consider here depending on the situation.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I would be careful with B. and C.
> 
> B. Is highly contextualized depending on where you are on the planet. Also I would never say never.
> 
> C. Is simply not the case. Regardless lots of specifics to consider here depending on the situation.


Yes, there is variability in abduction scenarios. The principle ultimately, is that if you're taken to the secondary location, your chances of escape diminish dramatically.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 27, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Yes, there is variability in abduction scenarios. The principle ultimately, is that if you're taken to the secondary location, your chances of escape diminish dramatically.


Again yes. But that is based on your geographical location. Depending on the motivation for the abduction.


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## drop bear (Jul 27, 2022)

Is there any evidence to back this up either way?


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Is there any evidence to back this up either way?


Which part?


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Is there any evidence to back this up either way?


You can't even properly respond to my last post, or to other posts where I've basically said the same thing to you ad nauseum. 

You are intellectually dishonest, argumentative, and want to die on the "MMA or bah" hill.

@Jared Traveler may or may not want to indulge in this, but I'm not going to waste anymore time with you discussing this subject.


----------



## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Again yes. But that is based on your geographical location. Depending on the motivation for the abduction.


Yes yes.

Serial killer, vs criminal, versus terrorist, whether it's Mexico, Africa, the Middle East, etc.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 27, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Yes yes.
> 
> Serial killer, vs criminal, versus terrorist, whether it's Mexico, Africa, the Middle East, etc.


Kidnapped for ransom, it's big business in many places in the world.


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## TularosaKungFu (Jul 27, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Again, I ask why - for you - this is important. To me, the distinction of these terms is unimportant. What's important is that those of us teaching know (and are honest with ourselves and our students) what we are teaching, and what the focus of that training is. And that students know what they are training in. Which words are used to convey that isn't important, so getting personal definitions for these terms isn't, either - unless you use them to define what you do.


You just used a buncha more words to say what the op said to begin with.


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## lklawson (Jul 27, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> The average person doesn’t even know how to indentify and categorize pre-predation behaviors in the moment.


Let me first preface this by saying that I think this likely a true statement.  But the question is, how do you know?  Maybe it's not true and both you and I are only assuming it's true?  There's been a vastly growing interest in personal defense and responsibility since the beginning of the COVID lockdowns and I've seem a ton of new material, from written to video, on pre-attack indicators, heightened awareness, Cooper's color codes, and all the related material.  Heck, I even wrote some myself a bit back.  It seems likely that the general public is more aware now than they ever were before.  The question then would be, how much of the general public and how much more aware?

Think of it like grappling.  30 years ago, fighters were unlikely to have much grappling skills.  Sure there was the odd Judoka or fella with a HS/Collegiate wrestling background.  But most?  Nah.  Now getting some wrestling, Judo, or (especially) BJJ is almost de rigeur.  There are lots of other things about the personal defense and responsibility landscape that, likewise, have changed.

We need to be careful about our assumptions.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Let me first preface this by saying that I think this likely a true statement.  But the question is, how do you know?  Maybe it's not true and both you and I are only assuming it's true?  There's been a vastly growing interest in personal defense and responsibility since the beginning of the COVID lockdowns and I've seem a ton of new material, from written to video, on pre-attack indicators, heightened awareness, Cooper's color codes, and all the related material.  Heck, I even wrote some myself a bit back.  It seems likely that the general public is more aware now than they ever were before.  The question then would be, how much of the general public and how much more aware?
> 
> Think of it like grappling.  30 years ago, fighters were unlikely to have much grappling skills.  Sure there was the odd Judoka or fella with a HS/Collegiate wrestling background.  But most?  Nah.  Now getting some wrestling, Judo, or (especially) BJJ is almost de rigeur.  There are lots of other things about the personal defense and responsibility landscape that, likewise, have changed.
> 
> ...


It may be growing, I couldn't speak to that--but I have been aware, that people typically don't know what the hell I'm talking about it, when referencing it, not even practitioners.


----------



## lklawson (Jul 27, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> It may be growing, I couldn't speak to that--but I have been aware, that people typically don't know what the hell I'm talking about it, when referencing it, not even practitioners.


So you're going off of old information and assuming it's still valid.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

lklawson said:


> So you're going off of old information and assuming it's still valid.


I'm going off of observations to this day, which doesn't contradict your observation that it _is_ growing.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 27, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Right, while any idiot can just give up his car, there can be a lot more to it than that. Again, different skill set.


Any “idiot” can give up his car?  Is this really how you view it?  Because if you are being hijacked by three fellows with AK-47s and all they want is to take your car, then the only intelligent thing to do is to give up the car.


----------



## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Any “idiot” can give up his car?  Is this really how you view it?  Because if you are being hijacked by three fellows with AK-47s and all they want is to take your car, then the only intelligent thing to do is to give up the car.


Not necessarily. 

If you're in tribal country of Afghanistan as the member of a plain-clothes team, you're heavily armed, have drone support--and the three fellows are in your way....other options may be more conducive to mission success.

Context matters.


----------



## Jared Traveler (Jul 27, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Any “idiot” can give up his car?  Is this really how you view it?  Because if you are being hijacked by three fellows with AK-47s and all they want is to take your car, then the only intelligent thing to do is to give up the car.


Respectfully, you are missing the forest because of the tree my friend.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 27, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Respectfully, you are missing the forest because of the tree my friend.


You may want to simply be more selective with your language.


----------



## Jared Traveler (Jul 27, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> You may want to simply be more selective with your language.


Now I'm the one who doesn't understand?


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 27, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> If you're in tribal country of Afghanistan as the member of a plain-clothes team, you're heavily armed, have drone support--and the three fellows are in your way....other options may be more conducive to mission success.
> 
> Context matters.


Of course context matters.  But none was given in that instance.  So it got distilled down to “any idiot can simply give up their car.”  

That isn’t idiotic.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 27, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Now I'm the one who doesn't understand?


If you don’t want to be misunderstood, then you ought to be more careful with your language.  Distilling down a willingness to give up a car to armed assailants as idiotic, when you feel there is more to it than that, is a failure to communicate if you don’t give the additional context. 

Communication isn’t what you think you said.  It is what the other party perceived.


----------



## Jared Traveler (Jul 27, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> If you don’t want to be misunderstood, then you ought to be more careful with your language.  Distilling down a willingness to give up a car to armed assailants as idiotic, when you feel there is more to it than that, is a failure to communicate if you don’t give the additional context.
> 
> Communication isn’t what you think you said.  It is what the other party perceived.


What in the world are you talking about? You are way off the path my friend.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 27, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> What in the world are you talking about? You are way off the path my friend.


No,  think you don’t communicate as clearly as you think.  But that is simply my opinion.


----------



## Jared Traveler (Jul 27, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> No,  think you don’t communicate as clearly as you think.  But that is simply my opinion.


If you have a genuine question regarding what I think, I would love to clarity. I've had enough enemies for a lifetime, I'm not looking to make one of you.


----------



## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> If you have a genuine question regarding what I think, I would love to clarity. I've had enough enemies for a lifetime, I'm not looking to make one of you.


Lmaooooo

This forum bro. Did I come to the right place for exchanging knowledge?


----------



## drop bear (Jul 27, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> You can't even properly respond to my last post, or to other posts where I've basically said the same thing to you ad nauseum.
> 
> You are intellectually dishonest, argumentative, and want to die on the "MMA or bah" hill.
> 
> @Jared Traveler may or may not want to indulge in this, but I'm not going to waste anymore time with you discussing this subject.



So no then.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 27, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Which part?



So you now have a classic issue. One guy says one thing. The other guy says the other thing. 

And nobody really knows which is the right thing.

I wouldn't have a clue. I have never been car jacked. I don't know anyone who has.

How would either of you know what happens or what is most likely?


----------



## Jared Traveler (Jul 27, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> No,  think you don’t communicate as clearly as you think.  But that is simply my opinion.


Let me clarify, I've had time to go back and look over the posts in more detail. While any idiot "can" give up a vehicle(I'm using this term "idiot" to appease someone else on this thread), that is not an indication of what smart or stupid people "will" do under an extreme amount of acute stress. 

Hyper arousal is very real, and seeing a gun pointed at you is a lot different than touching gloves in a ring. It's far more serious and stressful. My point is that training, stress inoculation, and little details are important, or at least can be in this type of dynamic situation. So yes, any idiot can give up a vehicle hypothetically, but as a trainer, you want to sweat the details to increase you students odds of success. hope that clarifies any incongruent statements on my part?


----------



## Jared Traveler (Jul 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> So you now have a classic issue. One guy says one thing. The other guy says the other thing.
> 
> And nobody really knows which is the right thing.
> 
> ...


There are always many voices. It all comes down to which voice you trust. It can be challenging, I totally understand that.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 27, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Let me clarify, I've had time to go back and look over the posts in more detail. While any idiot "can" give up a vehicle(I'm using this term "idiot" to appease someone else on this thread), that is not an indication of what smart or stupid people "will" do under an extreme amount of acute stress.
> 
> Hyper arousal is very real, and seeing a gun pointed at you is a lot different than touching gloves in a ring. It's far more serious and stressful. My point is that training, stress inoculation, and little details are important, or at least can be in this type of dynamic situation. So yes, any idiot can give up a vehicle hypothetically, but as a trainer, you want to sweat the details to increase you students odds of success. hope that clarifies any incongruent statements on my part?


Thank you for that clarification and in particular the first paragraph. That was the missing part for me.


----------



## Jared Traveler (Jul 27, 2022)

By the way, it was not my intention to discuss carjackings in detail, it was given as one example. There seems to be a lot of energy digging up this one scenario. The point being an "expert" in say combatives does not mean you automatically understand "personal security" or how to properly teach "self-defense." The same way teaching judo does not prepare you to teach Karate. The differences are important to understand in my opinion. And actually help you become a better instructor if you take the time to sort through them.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 27, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> There are always many voices. It all comes down to which voice you trust. It can be challenging, I totally understand that.



Now remember when you were discussing the junk the police were training?

Why do you think they allowed that?


----------



## drop bear (Jul 27, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> By the way, it was not my intention to discuss carjackings in detail, it was given as one example. There seems to be a lot of energy digging up this one scenario. The point being an "expert" in say combatives does not mean you automatically understand "personal security" or how to properly teach "self-defense." The same way teaching judo does not prepare you to teach Karate. The differences are important to understand in my opinion. And actually help you become a better instructor if you take the time to sort through them.



So you should understand the subject you teach. And not try to wing it from say anecdotes and stuff.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 27, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Let me clarify, I've had time to go back and look over the posts in more detail. While any idiot "can" give up a vehicle(I'm using this term "idiot" to appease someone else on this thread), that is not an indication of what smart or stupid people "will" do under an extreme amount of acute stress.
> 
> Hyper arousal is very real, and seeing a gun pointed at you is a lot different than touching gloves in a ring. It's far more serious and stressful. My point is that training, stress inoculation, and little details are important, or at least can be in this type of dynamic situation. So yes, any idiot can give up a vehicle hypothetically, but as a trainer, you want to sweat the details to increase you students odds of success. hope that clarifies any incongruent statements on my part?


To me, in this situation the small details aren't what's important. The big ones are-don't be a threat to the person, and give the people with the guns what they want. That's true for carjacking (the example) but a lot of other similar scenarios people go through). 

The issue is, as you pointed out, high stress situations cause people to panic and not follow what they were taught, so teaching them the small details of how to move/the exact words to use is not necessarily a good method of training. In other words, panicking/high adrenaline can evoke irrational response, so teaching the rational brain what to do is not super helpful. 

So to help someone learn not to panic/act irrationally in high stress situations, rather than teach someone small details and have them go through contrived, completely safe/stress-free scenarios, they need to learn how to handle stress. Beyond mindfulness exercises (which can work but are not the best for the kind of acute stress mentioned here, without experiencing using them in acutely stressful situations), the only realistic solution is to put people into high-stress situations. There are a couple ways to do this:

1. Go out in a bad neighborhood, acting in a way that's going to cause confrontations (or take a job like a bouncer or LEO that's going to cause confrontations) and learn by doing. This has the risk of getting seriously injured, killed, or ending up in jail, among other things but if you survive would probably be the most effective. 

2. Do things that raise your own stress level. For some that might be cliff diving or base jumping, for others it might be sticking your hand in a hornets nest, or locking yourself in a sensory deprivation room. These will do a good job of getting you used to panicking and thinking it through in relatively safe situations, but aren't something you can learn in a seminar/class as everyone has different things that would elicit that reaction, so it would have to be done on a more personal level. They also don't teach any martial art/relevant skills. 

3. Competitive fighting. You've got the risk of bodily injury, and almost everyone gets adrenaline, a high amount of stress, and some panic when they first enter a competitive fight. Obviously not the full level of stress, as it's not a specific phobia and you know you won't die, but it teaches you to think calmly in a high-stress situation, while also teaching you martial skills, and can be taught in a class.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> So you should understand the subject you teach. And not try to wing it from say anecdotes and stuff.


Forgive me, I'm not smart enough to determine if this is another attempt to diminish me?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 27, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> By the way, it was not my intention to discuss carjackings in detail, it was given as one example. There seems to be a lot of energy digging up this one scenario. The point being an "expert" in say combatives does not mean you automatically understand "personal security" or how to properly teach "self-defense." The same way teaching judo does not prepare you to teach Karate. The differences are important to understand in my opinion. And actually help you become a better instructor if you take the time to sort through them.


Just to clarify, do you consider yourself an expert in the realms of self defense you mentioned in your first post? Do you teach those? 

If so, you should be able to follow fully and discuss one specific scenario and everything that goes with it. If not, then that changes expectations as well in regards to the discussion (think about discussing for instance how to perform a takedown with a white belt vs head instructor of a school).


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 27, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> To me, in this situation the small details aren't what's important. The big ones are-don't be a threat to the person, and give the people with the guns what they want. That's true for carjacking (the example) but a lot of other similar scenarios people go through).
> 
> The issue is, as you pointed out, high stress situations cause people to panic and not follow what they were taught, so teaching them the small details of how to move/the exact words to use is not necessarily a good method of training. In other words, panicking/high adrenaline can evoke irrational response, so teaching the rational brain what to do is not super helpful.
> 
> ...


Great thoughts. I think if you shrink that down, you might say.... Grappling is a great way to stay calm and thinking under stress. One key factor in high stress situations is continuing to think and solve problems, vs a step by step guide to self protection.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 27, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Great thoughts. I think if you shrink that down, you might say.... Grappling is a great way to stay calm and thinking under stress. One key factor in high stress situations is continuing to think and solve problems, vs a step by step guide to self protection.


Yup. I have a tendency to over-explain, that's definitely a simpler version of it. I'd replace grappling through with any high-pressure martial art/martial competition. So for instance not tai chi or aikido, but grappling, judo, boxing, certain karate tournaments could all qualify.


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## drop bear (Jul 27, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Forgive me, I'm not smart enough to determine if this is another attempt to diminish me?



You can only be diminished if you allow yourself to be.

See self defence or protection or martial arts isn't about image.

It is about what is doable and provable.

That is properly identifying what you teach and learn.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> You can only be diminished if you allow yourself to be.
> 
> See self defence or protection or martial arts isn't about image.
> 
> ...


I get it, you are the "man."


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I get it, you are the "man."


We need a gigachad meme—but with mma gloves and shorts on.


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## drop bear (Jul 27, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I get it, you are the "man."



Not about image. Not about the man and not about being upset.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 28, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> I mean..this is effectively a thread on tactical training, which is a field with sub-disciplines. The average person doesn’t even know how to indentify and categorize pre-predation behaviors in the moment.
> 
> The statement implies, that if you don’t fit the category, then perhaps you should be the one driving.


I assume you meant to type "shouldn't be the one driving" (if you didn't, the statement makes no sense to me). Again, that assumes any given person knows someone who fits that category, and most don't. So "should" doesn't really factor into that, does it?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 28, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Some people have lived very comfortable lives, and the thought wouldn’t cross their mind.


So do you assume it takes specialized training (the apparent original point) or that it just takes not being privileged (the point you seem to be making in this post)?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 28, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> He doesn’t. Drop Bear was doing the “MMA or bah” speach, and he was pointing out that pro-level boxing skills aren’t necessarily going to help you in this situation.


No, he kinda wasn't. He does from time to time, but in this case he seemed to just be saying good, reliable fighting skills are more important than specialized training. I mean, Tyson isn't MMA, is he?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 28, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Right, while any idiot can just give up his car, there can be a lot more to it than that. Again, different skill set.


This seems to suggest giving up the car is the idiot move. Care to elaborate, or was that your point?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 28, 2022)

TularosaKungFu said:


> You just used a buncha more words to say what the op said to begin with.


Interesting take. I thought I was disagreeing with their stance on the necessity of defining those terms. As for word count, not sure what your point was, nor where you got the count. I mean, if you're goint to make as point about word count, at least count the words.


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## drop bear (Jul 28, 2022)

When I did my body guard training. Anti car jacking was a lot more to do with route planning. So you don't wind up somewhere you could get boxed in.

Otherwise. Safety distances (which everyone should do) and making sure stay in the fast lane as much as possible. Keep the doors locked. That sort of thing.

Nothing tactical. More just basic defensive driving.

If you are stopped by 3 guys with AK,s then they will probably determine the outcome of that .


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 28, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> If you're in tribal country of Afghanistan as the member of a plain-clothes team, you're heavily armed, have drone support--and the three fellows are in your way....other options may be more conducive to mission success.
> 
> Context matters.


You might want to recall that the original point that started this side-thread was about an individual. You're pushing this into the "yeah, but what if I had..." territory. Give me any situation, and I can add some circumstance that makes it work differently.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 28, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I assume you meant to type "shouldn't be the one driving" (if you didn't, the statement makes no sense to me). Again, that assumes any given person knows someone who fits that category, and most don't. So "should" doesn't really factor into that, does it?


Correct, my bad.

No, it doesn't. Your original statement was that on average people don't know someone who would be a good designated driver in the event of a possible armed confrontations--so if knowledgeable of the threat, you have 3 options:

a) Do it yourself

b) Get a professional or local that's used to it.

c) Why are you there to begin with?



Gerry Seymour said:


> So do you assume it takes specialized training (the apparent original point) or that it just takes not being privileged (the point you seem to be making in this post)?



Could be lack of privilege, or just life choices. Both training and life experience can get you similar results, the former without the risk.



Gerry Seymour said:


> No, he kinda wasn't. He does from time to time, but in this case he seemed to just be saying good, reliable fighting skills are more important than specialized training. I mean, Tyson isn't MMA, is he?



I get you're friends, and that you're willing to look past how he ignores things, that don't support his arguments on RBSD. I don't have to like it, but that's just human nature.  

You are getting into semantics with Tyson. The system he is specialized in, is considered a key system in the practice of MMA.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 28, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> You might want to recall that the original point that started this side-thread was about an individual. You're pushing this into the "yeah, but what if I had..." territory. Give me any situation, and I can add some circumstance that makes it work differently.


No, I was simply stating that the best thing to do, depends on the situation, and that letting go of the car is not something that takes specialized training--but other options can.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 28, 2022)

drop bear said:


> This seems to suggest giving up the car is the idiot move. Care to elaborate, or was that your point?


Did you see where I already elaborated?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 28, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Correct, my bad.
> 
> No, it doesn't. Your original statement was that on average people don't know someone who would be a good designated driver in the event of a possible armed confrontations--so if knowledgeable of the threat, you have 3 options:
> 
> ...


You need to read some of the old threads between me and drop bear. I like the guy, and would have a beer with him, but we disagree a lot. And on some pretty fundamental stuff, too.

As for the rest, it just feels like you're dodging around trying to find something to support a statement made that isn't reasonably supportable. There was a good point to be made, but the carjacking with AK's feels like you jumped the shark.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 28, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> You need to read some of the old threads between me and drop bear. I like the guy, and would have a beer with him, but we disagree a lot. And on some pretty fundamental stuff, too.
> 
> As for the rest, it just feels like you're dodging around trying to find something to support a statement made that isn't reasonably supportable. There was a good point to be made, but the carjacking with AK's feels like you jumped the shark.


In a different thread, you admonished someone for being "MMA or bah." In the same thread Drop Bear was doing pretty much the exact same thing, he just wasn't as aggressive in his wording.

If you're talking about the practicality of teaching that in the US (carjacking and carbines), then I would agree it's not the greatest investment.

However, dealing with heavily armed individuals who hold you up in the car, is a thing in certain parts of the world.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 28, 2022)

I will make one more attempt at this;
Do you all understand that the point I'm making is not specific at all to 3 guys carjacking you with 3 AK47s? It could just as easily be a scenario where your mother or wife is robbed of her purse by someone holding a screw driver.

How she is going to avoid being in that situation, and/or mitigate it is not found in "martial arts" training. Mitigating it possibly could be done from using firearms based "self-defense" training(let's be realistic they aren't armed, so that's out) but almost certainly not in "combatives training." And oh by the way, she is more likely to be injured in a car wreck on her way to the store, as opposed to actually being robbed, so let's keep this in perspective, remember "safety training" and to wear her seatbelt.

It's really that simple of a concept.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 28, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> I get you're friends, and that you're willing to look past how he ignores things, that don't support his arguments on RBSD. I don't have to like it, but that's just human nature.


This might be the funniest thing I've read on this site in a while. Dropbear and gerry look past each other's fallacies?Particularly regarding dropbears "do mma" arguments?


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## lklawson (Jul 28, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> This might be the funniest thing I've read on this site in a while. Dropbear and gerry look past each other's fallacies?Particularly regarding dropbears "do mma" arguments?


Does Bear actually have any "friends" here?  It seems like his primary primary form of entertainment on MT is to irritate as many people as he can.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 28, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Does Bear actually have any "friends" here?  It seems like his primary primary form of entertainment on MT is to irritate as many people as he can.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


I have wondered that as well--the entertainment part.


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## lklawson (Jul 28, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> I have wondered that as well--the entertainment part.


The point being that Gerry isn't defending Bear's statement because they're friends, as you claimed.  He's defending Bear's statement because he believes it to be essentially correct.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 28, 2022)

lklawson said:


> The point being that Gerry isn't defending Bear's statement because they're friends, as you claimed.  He's defending Bear's statement because he believes it to be essentially correct.


OK. That is their prerogative.


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## drop bear (Jul 28, 2022)

My friends would call me on my bull crap.

I wouldn't get butt hurt over that.


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## drop bear (Jul 28, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I will make one more attempt at this;
> Do you all understand that the point I'm making is not specific at all to 3 guys carjacking you with 3 AK47s? It could just as easily be a scenario where your mother or wife is robbed of her purse by someone holding a screw driver.
> 
> How she is going to avoid being in that situation, and/or mitigate it is not found in "martial arts" training. Mitigating it possibly could be done from using firearms based "self-defense" training(let's be realistic they aren't armed, so that's out) but almost certainly not in "combatives training." And oh by the way, she is more likely to be injured in a car wreck on her way to the store, as opposed to actually being robbed, so let's keep this in perspective, remember "safety training" and to wear her seatbelt.
> ...



It just always seems a bit like a gimmick when martial artists do it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> In a different thread, you admonished someone for being "MMA or bah." In the same thread Drop Bear was doing pretty much the exact same thing, he just wasn't as aggressive in his wording.
> 
> If you're talking about the practicality of teaching that in the US (carjacking and carbines), then I would agree it's not the greatest investment.
> 
> However, dealing with heavily armed individuals who hold you up in the car, is a thing in certain parts of the world.


I feel like you're moving farther and farther from the original point you replied to. I also don't feel like either of us is gaining anything from this side discussion, so I'll let it drop.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I will make one more attempt at this;
> Do you all understand that the point I'm making is not specific at all to 3 guys carjacking you with 3 AK47s? It could just as easily be a scenario where your mother or wife is robbed of her purse by someone holding a screw driver.
> 
> How she is going to avoid being in that situation, and/or mitigate it is not found in "martial arts" training. Mitigating it possibly could be done from using firearms based "self-defense" training(let's be realistic they aren't armed, so that's out) but almost certainly not in "combatives training." And oh by the way, she is more likely to be injured in a car wreck on her way to the store, as opposed to actually being robbed, so let's keep this in perspective, remember "safety training" and to wear her seatbelt.
> ...


This gets back to my original point about the terms  being too vague to make statements like this. "Martial arts" can contian a lot of things, depending upon how you define it, and the experience/knowledge of those teaching it. Many in MA do teach mitigation, de-escalation, avoidance, etc. Some even teach those things well.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 29, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I feel like you're moving farther and farther from the original point you replied to. I also don't feel like either of us is gaining anything from this side discussion, so I'll let it drop.


I am simply responding to what you had to say.

If you prefer not to directly address it, that is your prerogative.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Does Bear actually have any "friends" here?  It seems like his primary primary form of entertainment on MT is to irritate as many people as he can.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Oddly, he's the kind of (insert vulgar term used rather readily and sometimes semi-affectionately in Australia) I'd have a beer with after class. Particularly because we manage to disagree mostly civilly.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2022)

drop bear said:


> It just always seems a bit like a gimmick when martial artists do it.


While there are some who do those things well, I think many do it either just because someone who taught them did, or because it seems like something they "should" do.

There's a lot of stuff I don't teach that was taught to me, because I either don't think it's good teaching, or just don't have any idea if it's good practice. That's the same reason I teach (well, taught - probably will teach again) stuff that wasn't taught as part of my primary art.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 29, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> This gets back to my original point about the terms  being too vague to make statements like this. "Martial arts" can contian a lot of things, depending upon how you define it, and the experience/knowledge of those teaching it. Many in MA do teach mitigation, de-escalation, avoidance, etc. Some even teach those things well.


I don't disagree that the terms are in some cases vague, which is why I'm suggesting as individuals we try to define them more specifically.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 29, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> This gets back to my original point about the terms  being too vague to make statements like this. "Martial arts" can contian a lot of things, depending upon how you define it, and the experience/knowledge of those teaching it. Many in MA do teach mitigation, de-escalation, avoidance, etc. Some even teach those things well.


Defining martial art:

Merriam webster: any of several arts of combat and self-defense (such as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sport

Cambridge: a sport that is a traditional Japanese or Chinese form of fighting or defending yourself

Britannica: any of various fighting sports or skills, mainly of East Asian origin, such as kung fu (Pinyin _gongfu_), judo, karate, and kendō.

Wiki: codified systems and traditions of combat

Oxford reference: a broad term that covers a variety of schools and forms whose unity derives only from their origins in the arts of war and single combat. Thus, it covers the ‘empty-hand’ fighting style of karate as well as forms that concentrate on the use of various weapons, from swords and bows and arrows to farming implements such as sickles and threshers.

What do they have in common?--if it involves fighting, it's a martial art.

Mitigation, descalation, and avoidance, are not martial arts skills. They are just taught together depending on where you learn.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I don't disagree that the terms are in some cases vague, which is why I'm suggesting as individuals we try to define them more specifically.


That was one of my original questions: why do we need to define those terms more specifically? So long as we know and can communicate what we teach, why do the marketing terms need to be specifically defined?


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## drop bear (Jul 29, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> While there are some who do those things well, I think many do it either just because someone who taught them did, or because it seems like something they "should" do.
> 
> There's a lot of stuff I don't teach that was taught to me, because I either don't think it's good teaching, or just don't have any idea if it's good practice. That's the same reason I teach (well, taught - probably will teach again) stuff that wasn't taught as part of my primary art.



The thing is. For me. Most of the stuff I will do on the street. I can try in the classroom. Without having to pre warn people. I just have to be careful about it.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 29, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> That was one of my original questions: why do we need to define those terms more specifically? So long as we know and can communicate what we teach, why do the marketing terms need to be specifically defined?


Great question! The biggest reason is as instructors, we want to provide our students with solutions to threats. I think most instructors have good intentions. But if we try to have a solution for everything, we will come up with answers based on our training and experience to do it. In many cases lacking the experience, and knowledge to give those answers. Why? Because we are often drawing from the same well. 

In other words, to put it in a martial arts example, if you practice kickboxing and what to learn grappling, you don't get their by studying kickboxing at a deeper level. No you go to an expert to learn what you don't know about grappling. If you want to teach self-defense at a higher level, you don't get their by becoming the best combatives guy in town. You have to discover nuances you are previously unaware of. 

By being aware of the nuances, we can begin to broaden our understanding of many topics and skill sets we were previously unaware even existed. 

This thread is NOT intended to be a "stay in your lane" speech. The fact is the student or client is going to reach out to you as a martial arts instructor in many cases, regardless if it's the right context. But if we are self-aware, we can better begin to understand what type of skill set they best need. We can grow in ways we didn't know existed, to help them. We can teach better classes. On the other hand sometimes, this may simply mean saying, "You don't need martial arts instruction, you need...."


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 29, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Great question! The biggest reason is as instructors, we want to provide our students with solutions to threats. I think most instructors have good intentions. But if we try to have a solution for everything, we will come up with answers based on our training and experience to do it. In many cases lacking the experience, and knowledge to give those answers. Why? Because we are often drawing from the same well.
> 
> In other words, to put it in a martial arts example, if you practice kickboxing and what to learn grappling, you don't get their by studying kickboxing at a deeper level. No you go to an expert to learn what you don't know about grappling. If you want to teach self-defense at a higher level, you don't get their by becoming the best combatives guy in town. You have to discover nuances you are previously unaware of.
> 
> ...


Hence my thread on the Gen section.

You want to learn how to fight, you go learn from accredited martial artists, and you have the sub disciplines per skill.

You want to learn how to practically apply those skills as a civilian or officer, you go learn from people who specialize in real-world altercations and today’s street threats.

You want to learn about knives, you to go someone who’s specialty is “shankology,” preferably someone who’s been on the receiving end, and had to use their weapon.

You want to learn about guns, you go to someone who’s had to shoot people for a living.

And so on.


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## lklawson (Jul 29, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Very mDefining martial art:
> 
> Merriam webster: any of several arts of combat and self-defense (such as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sport
> 
> ...


Very much disagree.  Learning how to avoid unnecessary fights has been a staple of martial doctrine since before Sun Tzu.


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## lklawson (Jul 29, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Great question! The biggest reason is as instructors, we want to provide our students with solutions to threats. I think most instructors have good intentions.


Except when that's not the point of studying martial arts.

Again, for the umpteenth time, not all martial arts study is related to "self defense" or whatever.


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## lklawson (Jul 29, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Hence my thread on the Gen section.
> 
> You want to learn how to fight, you go learn from accredited martial artists, and you have the sub disciplines per skill.
> 
> ...


Hamlet, Act 1, Scene 5.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 29, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Except when that's not the point of studying martial arts.
> 
> Again, for the umpteenth time, not all martial arts study is related to "self defense" or whatever.


For the umpteenth time, that's my point also.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 29, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Very much disagree.  Learning how to avoid unnecessary fights has been a staple of martial doctrine since before Sun Tzu.


There is a difference between avoid fighting verse avoiding victimization.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 29, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> For the umpteenth time, that's my point also.


I'm sorry iklawson, that was rude of me. Please take a look at my original post, you seem not to realize you are saying, what I said from the very beginning.


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## lklawson (Jul 29, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I'm sorry iklawson, that was rude of me. Please take a look at my original post, you seem not to realize you are saying, what I said from the very beginning.


OK.  I re-read your thread-start post.  I still believe it to be far too restrictive, missing many of the reasons that people train in martial arts.  

While I agree that those reasons, Self-defense/combatives/etc., are what are often cited as the reason, it turns out that, well, they're usually not.  I was speaking to a fine gent just the other day who's training Judo, BJJ, & Boxing for the social aspect; just a bunch of folks training together and having fun with a hobby in order to avoid social isolation.

Maybe you've expanded your list and I missed it somewhere up-thread?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## drop bear (Jul 29, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> There is a difference between avoid fighting verse avoiding victimization.


Sales training is your best resource for that by the way. 

Because they do that sort of thing competitively.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The thing is. For me. Most of the stuff I will do on the street. I can try in the classroom. Without having to pre warn people. I just have to be careful about it.


I feel like I missed something in this. Was this a reply to the post you quoted?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Great question! The biggest reason is as instructors, we want to provide our students with solutions to threats. I think most instructors have good intentions. But if we try to have a solution for everything, we will come up with answers based on our training and experience to do it. In many cases lacking the experience, and knowledge to give those answers. Why? Because we are often drawing from the same well.
> 
> In other words, to put it in a martial arts example, if you practice kickboxing and what to learn grappling, you don't get their by studying kickboxing at a deeper level. No you go to an expert to learn what you don't know about grappling. If you want to teach self-defense at a higher level, you don't get their by becoming the best combatives guy in town. You have to discover nuances you are previously unaware of.
> 
> ...


I’m still not sure how that requires defining the borders of those terms.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 29, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I’m still not sure how that requires defining the borders of those terms.


Is this because you are rooted in your opinion that it doesn't matter? Or you genuinely want to consider what I'm saying?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Sales training is your best resource for that by the way.
> 
> Because they do that sort of thing competitively.


Can you expound on that? I’ve been through a lot of sales training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Is this because you are rooted in your opinion that it doesn't matter? Or you genuinely want to consider what I'm saying?


I’m just missing the connection.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 29, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I feel like I missed something in this. Was this a reply to the post you quoted?



Sort of to your post. I think there is a much wider range of ideas that you can test than people give credit for.

So we have this dilemma that that we shouldn't really be teaching things that someone said to someone and so on. 

But I think we can quite often take those things and play with them. So that we don't have as big a gap between theory and practice.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 29, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I’m just missing the connection.


Because as often instructors feel a need to have an answers to all things related to personal survival, because they are aware of an teach on aspect of it. So they end up creating solution or training programs that are outside of their scope of understanding. This happens a lot. And they are not even aware of where to go to seek answers to their question. Because first they haven't humbled themselves to identify that they don't know, second they don't know where to look, because they haven't identify the skills needed.


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## drop bear (Jul 29, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Can you expound on that? I’ve been through a lot of sales training.



It is ultimately trying to make someone do what they don't want to do and make them think they thought of doing it. 

Same with fighting. 

It was very effective in bouncing rather than explaining the rules I would sell them the alternatives.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Sort of to your post. I think there is a much wider range of ideas that you can test than people give credit for.
> 
> So we have this dilemma that that we shouldn't really be teaching things that someone said to someone and so on.
> 
> But I think we can quite often take those things and play with them. So that we don't have as big a gap between theory and practice.


I’m missing the connection to my post, but in any case I agree with what I think you’re saying.

I’m pretty tired, so the confusion could be all on my side.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Because as often instructors feel a need to have an answers to all things related to personal survival, because they are aware of an teach on aspect of it. So they end up creating solution or training programs that are outside of their scope of understanding. This happens a lot. And they are not even aware of where to go to seek answers to their question. Because first they haven't humbled themselves to identify that they don't know, second they don't know where to look, because they haven't identify the skills needed.


This is where I think we have the disconnect. I don’t see that as being an issue of definition of terms. I teach some parts of several of those categories, depending how you define them. But that’s not what really matters. What does matter is whether I understand the things I teach -do I know which techniques tend to work against folks who aren’t cooperating, for instance, or do I have any experience using deescalation to be able to teach it. Whether we put the pieces in one terminology box or another doesn’t change those questions or the answers.


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## drop bear (Jul 29, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Because as often instructors feel a need to have an answers to all things related to personal survival, because they are aware of an teach on aspect of it. So they end up creating solution or training programs that are outside of their scope of understanding. This happens a lot. And they are not even aware of where to go to seek answers to their question. Because first they haven't humbled themselves to identify that they don't know, second they don't know where to look, because they haven't identify the skills needed.



Does breaking down skillsets in to specifics fix that problem?

Here is a specific skill set.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2022)

drop bear said:


> It is ultimately trying to make someone do what they don't want to do and make them think they thought of doing it.
> 
> Same with fighting.
> 
> It was very effective in bouncing rather than explaining the rules I would sell them the alternatives.


You should start a thread on that someday. It’d make for interesting discussion.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 29, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Does breaking down skillsets in to specifics fix that problem?


Yes. Certainly, assuming you did into the subject matter to understand other categories of skills that you were previously unaware of, that you can then develop and make your skills.


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## drop bear (Jul 29, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> You should start a thread on that someday. It’d make for interesting discussion.



I have done it a couple of times I think. 

It didn't go well.


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## drop bear (Jul 29, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Does breaking down skillsets in to specifics fix that problem?
> 
> Here is a specific skill set.




And I think this is the issue you are trying to solve. 

Where I think it is the cause of the issue.


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## drop bear (Jul 29, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Yes. Certainly, assuming you did into the subject matter to understand other categories of skills that you were previously unaware of, that you can then develop and make your skills.



The thing is it kind of goes two ways. So say I wanted to do ground self defence.

Now I could say that was a BJJ specialty and do BJJ.

But the counter argument is BJJ is a sport and self defence is the specialty of I don't know. Let's say Krav.

Or even do a stand up and say the specialty is not going to the ground.

Using the specialist method I have no good way of telling what will work and what won't.

The argument works both ways. And is definitely used by both parties.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 29, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The thing is it kind of goes two ways. So say I wanted to do ground self defence.
> 
> Now I could say that was a BJJ specialty and do BJJ.
> 
> ...


Well let's assume a woman comes to a martial artist with no previous experience and says she needs to protect herself because someone is sending her threatening messages. Do you give her a one day seminar on self defense? Send her to a gun store, and try to teach her firearms? Or do you help her develope a safety plan?

And if the threat is legit, and she really needs help, how knowledgeable are you as a martial arts instructor to help her with that safety plan? Do you wing it? Fake it until you make it? Or do you send her to the police to learn how to protect herself?

Or have you previously recognize that even though you are a martial arts instructor, maybe you should cross train in another discipline such as personal security consulting? So you start doing research and learn how to properly do threat assessments, program assessments, sight assessments, vulnerability assessments, avoidance strategies, mitigation strategies, communication strategies, contingency planning, surveillance detection, so on an so forth and so forth?

The same way you are not going to invent how to do BJJ in the moment, you will not develop these other skills without a focused study.

I literally can't explain it any better than that.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 30, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Well let's assume a woman comes to a martial artist with no previous experience and says she needs to protect herself because someone is sending her threatening messages. Do you give her a one day seminar on self defense? Send her to a gun store, and try to teach her firearms? Or do you help her develope a safety plan?
> 
> And if the threat is legit, and she really needs help, how knowledgeable are you as a martial arts instructor to help her with that safety plan? Do you wing it? Fake it until you make it? Or do you send her to the police to learn how to protect herself?
> 
> ...


Also, it’s a not a very good argument that there’s a problem choosing between BJJ and self-defense.

BJJ is literally what’s taught for law enforcement to restrain suspects, and SOF for restraining captured targets.

The difference is they don’t focus on technique that assumes you’re on the mat in competition settings—which goes for applying all MMA accordingly.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 30, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Well let's assume a woman comes to a martial artist with no previous experience and says she needs to protect herself because someone is sending her threatening messages. Do you give her a one day seminar on self defense?


I don't like the word of SD. Your goal is to force your opponent to defense himself. 

Many years ago, a girl asked me if MA can be used for self-defense. She then showed me bruises on her legs that her husband beat her up everyday. She joined in my class for 6 months. 6 months later she quited my class. Her husband started to join in my class. People told me that she started to beat her husband up everyday.

In my class, students used sparring as warm up. Each student could accumulate a lot of sparring experience within 6 months of training (3 times a week, 3 hours each class).

If you want to learn how to fight, you have to fight.


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## drop bear (Jul 30, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> The same way you are not going to invent how to do BJJ in the moment, you will not develop these other skills without a focused study.
> 
> I literally can't explain it any better than that.



You know there are self defence guys literally do that. Under the guise of specific expertise.


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## drop bear (Jul 30, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Well let's assume a woman comes to a martial artist with no previous experience and says she needs to protect herself because someone is sending her threatening messages. Do you give her a one day seminar on self defense? Send her to a gun store, and try to teach her firearms? Or do you help her develope a safety plan?


You send her to someone who knows what they are on about.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 30, 2022)

drop bear said:


> You send her to someone who knows what they are on about.


Or help her call the police. It's not the responsibility of a civilian to help someone with no experience become safe from a stalker they already have.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 30, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Or help her call the police. It's not the responsibility of a civilian to help someone with no experience become safe from a stalker they already have.


I totally agree with this. In fact that's part of my point regarding understanding our skill sets. Of course in many cases, they may have already been to the police. Maybe a report was taken. Maybe they didn't get great advice. There is still a ton someone can do to help this person with the right knowledge.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't like the word of SD. Your goal is to force your opponent to defense himself.
> 
> Many years ago, a girl asked me if MA can be used for self-defense. She then showed me bruises on her legs that her husband beat her up everyday. She joined in my class for 6 months. 6 months later she quited my class. Her husband started to join in my class. People told me that she started to beat her husband up everyday.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you are describing abuse. I'm not quite sure exactly the point you are trying to make? But I do like the fact that we are closely examining terms.

Self-defense is pretty well laid you morally and legally in most American laws regarding the justifiable use of force and the justifiable use of lethal force.

Primarily we are talking about ethical and legal counter violence and even preemptive counter violence when justified. Proper use of force is a subject all on its own.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 30, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> It sounds like you are describing abuse.


Do not allow your opponent to abuse you should be your goal.

What's your MA training goal?

1. Ability to knock/take your opponent down, or
2. Ability not to be knocked/taken down?

You can't achieve 2 without having achieved 1 first.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do not allow your opponent to abuse you should be your goal.
> 
> What's your MA training goal?
> 
> ...


I think the issue here is that your spouse should not be your abuser.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 30, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Well let's assume a woman comes to a martial artist with no previous experience and says she needs to protect herself because someone is sending her threatening messages. Do you give her a one day seminar on self defense? Send her to a gun store, and try to teach her firearms? Or do you help her develope a safety plan?
> 
> And if the threat is legit, and she really needs help, how knowledgeable are you as a martial arts instructor to help her with that safety plan? Do you wing it? Fake it until you make it? Or do you send her to the police to learn how to protect herself?
> 
> ...


That’s a pretty specific hypothetical situation. I’ve never encountered anything analogous to it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 30, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Also, it’s a not a very good argument that there’s a problem choosing between BJJ and self-defense.
> 
> BJJ is literally what’s taught for law enforcement to restrain suspects, and SOF for restraining captured targets.
> 
> The difference is they don’t focus on technique that assumes you’re on the mat in competition settings—which goes for applying all MMA accordingly.


Which is why the terms in the OP aren’t all that important, really.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 30, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> That’s a pretty specific hypothetical situation. I’ve never encountered anything analogous to it.


The generic scenario where someone gets a threatening text message is not specific all all, intentionally generic and happens to people all the time. But I get it, you don't find in learning new skill sets. That's totally cool.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 30, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> The generic scenario where someone gets a threatening text message is not specific all all, intentionally generic and happens to people all the time. But I get it, you don't find in learning new skill sets. That's totally cool.


You seem to be a bit over the place here, suggesting specific situations, then switching to general ones, then back to specifics, so let's narrow it down to a specific scenario. 

Someone comes in to your dojo with a text that says "I'm going to kill you". Is that a good scenario for your questions of how to deal with it? And is there any context between you (as the hypothetical potential-victim) and the texter? Or is this one of those you posted on twitter and some rando 2000 miles away got triggered?


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 30, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You seem to be a bit over the place here, suggesting specific situations, then switching to general ones, then back to specifics, so let's narrow it down to a specific scenario.
> 
> Someone comes in to your dojo with a text that says "I'm going to kill you". Is that a good scenario for your questions of how to deal with it? And is there any context between you (as the hypothetical potential-victim) and the texter? Or is this one of those you posted on twitter and some rando 2000 miles away got triggered?


My point applies to both general and specific scenarios. Both are present in an attempted to show how this applies both generally and specifically. While I might be applying general and specific scenarios, it is in an attempt to make congruent points.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 30, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> My point applies to both general and specific scenarios. Both are present in an attempted to show how this applies both generally and specifically. While I might be applying general and specific scenarios, it is in an attempt to make congruent points.


You can apply a point to both. But you're in a discussion forum, with people you can't talk to face to face. The best option to explain your point is to use a specific scenario, and follow it through to the end to make your point. If you switch back and forth between general and specific, or you change the specific scenario halfway through, it seems as though you're changing it to make up any shortcomings with your idea, rather than a natural flow of conversation.


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## drop bear (Jul 30, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> My point applies to both general and specific scenarios. Both are present in an attempted to show how this applies both generally and specifically. While I might be applying general and specific scenarios, it is in an attempt to make congruent points.



Is ringing white ribbon.








						Help lines
					






					www.whiteribbon.org.au
				




The same argument as combatives isn't really sport?

Because they feel a bit stretched.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 30, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You can apply a point to both. But you're in a discussion forum, with people you can't talk to face to face. The best option to explain your point is to use a specific scenario, and follow it through to the end to make your point. If you switch back and forth between general and specific, or you change the specific scenario halfway through, it seems as though you're changing it to make up any shortcomings with your idea, rather than a natural flow of conversation.


This is partly my mistake. The original post contained no example. I was asked to give one and I did. Intentionally keeping it just simple enough to make the point, without adding unnecessary details. People kept adding points and discussing aspects that had nothing to do with the original point.

In an attempt to keep the thread on track I added another example, to show how the specifics were not important. That led to questions, I added a few points to make that scenario more detailed to draw out the point.

It was never intended to be an instructional on "how to mitigate a carjacking" or how to "how to consult someone being threatened."

This was not intended to be a "how to thread" hints my reluctance to go down a path on any one scenario, once it gets off topic. It's not an evasion of discussion, rather it's an attempt to have a focused effort to discuss the original topic.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 30, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Is ringing white ribbon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Drop Bear, this almost seems on topic, so I'm interested. But I'm not sure I understand your question?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 30, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> This is partly my mistake. The original post contained no example. I was asked to give one and I did. Intentionally keeping it just simple enough to make the point, without adding unnecessary details. People kept adding points and discussing aspects that had nothing to do with the original point.
> 
> In an attempt to keep the thread on track I added another example, to show how the specifics were not important. That led to questions, I added a few points to make that scenario more detailed to draw out the point.
> 
> ...


That's fair. As a result of a forum format, things can easily lose their initial point. When that's happened to my threads, my response has been to create new threads-in this situation, if I was the OP, I would create a thread to discuss how to handle a carjacking, allowing the option to go down a specific thread, and a separate new thread discussing different self-defence strategies, while avoiding mentioning any specific scenarios and letting other posters fill in their ideas. I'd definitely create the carjacking one though, so it didn't seem like I was avoiding it, and allow others (and myself) to delve deep into a specific scenario. That's one of the benefits of a forum-you can delve as deep as you want into something without it affecting other debates.

Most people on here know me though, and I'm a moderator, so that might effect it. I assume it would go well if you did the same, but not 100% sure.


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## drop bear (Jul 30, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Drop Bear, this almost seems on topic, so I'm interested. But I'm not sure I understand your question?



Ok. 

"Martial Arts Training
Self-defense Training
Combatives Training
Safety Training
Personal Security Training

These skills are not the same. It is important to know what you are teaching and learning. Your thoughts?"



The skills seem to be nuances on martial arts training. But the examples are give them the car or ring a help line. 

.you seem to be confusing the cause with the effect here.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 30, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That's fair. As a result of a forum format, things can easily lose their initial point. When that's happened to my threads, my response has been to create new threads-in this situation, if I was the OP, I would create a thread to discuss how to handle a carjacking, allowing the option to go down a specific thread, and a separate new thread discussing different self-defence strategies, while avoiding mentioning any specific scenarios and letting other posters fill in their ideas. I'd definitely create the carjacking one though, so it didn't seem like I was avoiding it, and allow others (and myself) to delve deep into a specific scenario. That's one of the benefits of a forum-you can delve as deep as you want into something without it affecting other debates.
> 
> Most people on here know me though, and I'm a moderator, so that might effect it. I assume it would go well if you did the same, but not 100% sure.


I might. I didn't really come on here to teach as much as I did to discuss things I find interesting.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 30, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Ok.
> 
> "Martial Arts Training
> Self-defense Training
> ...


Are you suggesting I should give examples more specific to martial arts?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 30, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I might. I didn't really come on here to teach as much as I did to discuss things I find interesting.


Yeah, my points weren't about you teaching. You haven't expressed anything that indicates you can teach most of us anyway, but we can always discuss stuff. But delving deep into a specific situation is a great way for everyone to learn.


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## drop bear (Jul 30, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Are you suggesting I should give examples more specific to martial arts?



That depends are you talking about martial arts or are you talking about who to contact in a domestic violence case? 

The thing is i think you are using these examples to stretch the definitions out. The more they are stretched out the more clear the examples.

But the examples are so far removed from martial arts as to become irrelevant.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 30, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Yeah, my points weren't about you teaching. You haven't expressed anything that indicates you can teach most of us anyway, but we can always discuss stuff. But delving deep into a specific situation is a great way for everyone to learn.


I agree, this isn't a teaching platform. That's part of why I haven't started a thread on how to do anything. I think it wouldn't be received well anyways.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 30, 2022)

Okay, I'm being asked to provide a detailed example for the purpose of unpacking what I'm talking about. Bear in mind, this is a real world example. However, my knowledge of the details will eventually reach its capacity and we might have to transition into hypothetical.

I once met a woman, who was violently assaulted by her ex-boyfriend. She had just flown back into town, and was meeting her new boyfriend, both sitting in a car in a random parking lot. The old boyfriend surprised them(he had a legitimate tracker on her vehicle), shoved a knife in the new boyfriends face, and told him to stay out of it.

Then drug her out of the car by her hair and spent the next 10 minutes cutting on her and biting her(while the new boyfriend coward behind a car on the phone with the police). When the police got there he had her hair and blood in her mouth, and she was sliced(marked up deep) all over. He didn't want to stop, but threw the knife down at the last moment to avoid being shot by the police.

He was arrested, but only given a $10,000 bond. In the last he had already kidnapped her at gun point and put her in the trunk of a car on a previous occasion.

This is the person now coming to you to figure out how to protect herself.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 31, 2022)

The initial question could be regarding the scenario above:
1. Is martial arts training the best thing she can do in the time she has before he bonds out, to be prepared to protect herself?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 31, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> The initial question could be regarding the scenario above:
> 1. Is martial arts training the best thing she can do in the time she has before he bonds out, to be prepared to protect herself?


I think I asked this earlier, but did not get a response, so it bears re-asking. What exactly is your experience? The reason I ask is because how I respond to someone/the advice I give to someone that just started training 2 months ago and thinks they have all the answers is very different than how I react to someone who trained for the last 15 years. And how I respond to someone who's been mostly self-training for years with occasional seminars is different that how I'd respond to the people spending 15 years training under those that deliver the seminars.


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## Jared Traveler (Jul 31, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I think I asked this earlier, but did not get a response, so it bears re-asking. What exactly is your experience? The reason I ask is because how I respond to someone/the advice I give to someone that just started training 2 months ago and thinks they have all the answers is very different than how I react to someone who trained for the last 15 years. And how I respond to someone who's been mostly self-training for years with occasional seminars is different that how I'd respond to the people spending 15 years training under those that deliver the seminars.


Feel free to pm me and ask questions about my background. I don't care to have it broadcast on here. If you agree to not broadcast it, I will likely share it with you. On a case by case bases.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 31, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Feel free to pm me and ask questions about my background. I don't care to have it broadcast on here. If you agree to not broadcast it, I will likely share it with you. On a case by case bases.


You aren’t willing to state publicly who you have trained under and for how long?  If you’ve got specific incidents in your life you don’t want to talk publicly about, I understand that.  But in terms of your training history, people who are very secretive about that kind of thing don’t usually get much credibility.  The people who actively engage in the discussions here are typically willing to openly state their training history.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 1, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> The generic scenario where someone gets a threatening text message is not specific all all, intentionally generic and happens to people all the time. But I get it, you don't find in learning new skill sets. That's totally cool.


I’m talking about the person coming to an instructor with that request. 

As for the other - feels a bit like baiting.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 1, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Okay, I'm being asked to provide a detailed example for the purpose of unpacking what I'm talking about. Bear in mind, this is a real world example. However, my knowledge of the details will eventually reach its capacity and we might have to transition into hypothetical.
> 
> I once met a woman, who was violently assaulted by her ex-boyfriend. She had just flown back into town, and was meeting her new boyfriend, both sitting in a car in a random parking lot. The old boyfriend surprised them(he had a legitimate tracker on her vehicle), shoved a knife in the new boyfriends face, and told him to stay out of it.
> 
> ...


This, again, isn’t something I’ve ever run into. And not something I think training can solve quickly. I’d get them in contact with a sheltering group, the police, and probably an attorney, before I’d even consider any training options. If they had the resources, I’d suggest security.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 1, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> The initial question could be regarding the scenario above:
> 1. Is martial arts training the best thing she can do in the time she has before he bonds out, to be prepared to protect herself?


IMO, no training fits that need.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 1, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Feel free to pm me and ask questions about my background. I don't care to have it broadcast on here. If you agree to not broadcast it, I will likely share it with you. On a case by case bases.


Why the secrecy? Your background gives us all context for your questions and to know what answers we might hope for from you.


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## Steve (Aug 1, 2022)

I’ve shared links to some resources for women.  There are martial arts/self defense programs that are designed by women, for women.  As you might expect, they vary from place to place.  But they all seem to focus on a lot more than martial skill.  In addition to everything else, they would have a network of resources.  

We used to have some very knowledgeable women who were experts in this area, but I think they got tired of the “not all men” attitudes and left.


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## Jared Traveler (Aug 6, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> You aren’t willing to state publicly who you have trained under and for how long?  If you’ve got specific incidents in your life you don’t want to talk publicly about, I understand that.  But in terms of your training history, people who are very secretive about that kind of thing don’t usually get much credibility.  The people who actively engage in the discussions here are typically willing to openly state their training history.


Fair enough. Many things I don't mind sharing. First, I was the police officer 3 feet from the suspect, when he decided to finally drop the knife. That was smart because I was closing the gap for a reason.

Second, I have many years training and teach Judo/Sambo, and many years with experience in other systems. I currently live in Thailand and train heavily in Muay Thai here.

I also have experience teaching the skills mentioned in the original post.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 6, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Fair enough. Many things I don't mind sharing. First, I was the police officer 3 feet from the suspect, when he decided to finally drop the knife. That was smart because I was closing the gap for a reason.
> 
> Second, I have many years training and teach Judo/Sambo, and many years with experience in other systems. I currently live in Thailand and train heavily in Muay Thai here.
> 
> I also have experience teaching the skills mentioned in the original post.


Would you care to share some of the other methods you have trained, and for how long?  Not an exhaustive resume, but it adds context to your input.


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## Jared Traveler (Aug 6, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Would you care to share some of the other methods you have trained, and for how long?  Not an exhaustive resume, but it adds context to your input.


Regarding martial arts? Hapkido and TKD back in the day.


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## Star Dragon (Aug 6, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I find that the longer I do this type of work, certain things become clear. One of those things is how important definitions are to bringing clarity to what you are learning, and what you are not learning. What you are teaching and what you are not teaching. Here are some terms to consider definitions for.
> 
> Martial Arts Training
> Self-defense Training
> ...



I feel that the distinction you are suggesting is a bit too specific for most practical purposes.

Essentially, everything you mention falls under the heading of martial arts, in my book.

Of course, if you are training in one of the more traditional arts that focus on psycho-physical health and self-improvement, such as Aikido or Taiji, you should know that they won't prepare you for a self-defence situation without additional training. (Not that there would be anything innately wrong with the way they are normally taught - not everyone's goals are the same, after all.)

If your training is self-defence based, it should include skills like situational awareness, stress management, de-escalating a situation, and so on, to begin with. Just teaching the moves that would (hopefully) handle a specific attack isn't going to cut it!

For that matter, the skill set to be taught to law enforcement officers or bouncers (who are expected to be able to control an aggressor without inflicting lasting damage) must be different from the one in a women's self-defence class (where the "evade and destroy" approach is generally the most viable option).

Obviously, if you are training to win tournaments, that's a different animal altogether. Despite all the talk about MMA being the ultimate test of fighting prowess, fact is that what might go down in a self-defence situation is very different from what is happening in the octagon.

So yes, be clear what your training is all about (and it could fall into more than one category, to be sure), but don't overspecialize. Try to be inclusive rather than exclusive! Aim to become a well-rounded individual in what you do.


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## Jared Traveler (Aug 6, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> IMO, no training fits that need.


Reall


Star Dragon said:


> I feel that the distinction you are suggesting is a bit too specific for most practical purposes.
> 
> Essentially, everything you mention falls under the heading of martial arts, in my book.
> 
> ...





Star Dragon said:


> I feel that the distinction you are suggesting is a bit too specific for most practical purposes.
> 
> Essentially, everything you mention falls under the heading of martial arts, in my book.
> 
> ...


I think there is a bit of miscommunication here. Because I'm not suggesting to be exclusive, rather awareness, so that you can do exactly what you are suggesting.


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## Jared Traveler (Aug 7, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> IMO, no training fits that need.


I've given up on articulating nuances of this subject. At this point it's self-evident to someone reading it, or they simply don't or will not see the value. I could keep drilling down, but it's like going for a choke you are never going to get. Better to transition to something else.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I've given up on articulating nuances of this subject. At this point it's self-evident to someone reading it, or they simply don't or will not see the value. I could keep drilling down, but it's like going for a choke you are never going to get. Better to transition to something else.


Are you suggesting there is training appropriate for someone in imminent danger, who has no prior training?


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## Jared Traveler (Aug 8, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Are you suggesting there is training appropriate for someone in imminent danger, who has no prior training?


Certainly!


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 8, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Certainly!


There are a few things that could be taught (a few things to look for), but I doubt there's training that's very effective in that situation, in the immediate need. Changing awareness doesn't happen quickly for most folks, and no physical training is likely to be useful in that short a period.


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## Jared Traveler (Aug 8, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> There are a few things that could be taught (a few things to look for), but I doubt there's training that's very effective in that situation, in the immediate need. Changing awareness doesn't happen quickly for most folks, and no physical training is likely to be useful in that short a period.


Ability, Opportunity and Intent. This is what criminals need to attack someone. Remove one of these and he can't victimize her in the short term.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 8, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Ability, Opportunity and Intent. This is what criminals need to attack someone. Remove one of these and he can't victimize her in the short term.


I’d have to ponder that. In theory, yes. I’m not immediately convinced most people could alter their lives effectively without direct intervention (more than training). 

Intent is not really in her control, nor is ability. So all you can work with in this manner is opportunity.


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## Star Dragon (Aug 9, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Reall
> 
> 
> 
> I think there is a bit of miscommunication here. Because I'm not suggesting to be exclusive, rather awareness, so that you can do exactly what you are suggesting.


We surely have common ground. I just felt that your list drew some lines, where none need to exist.

I agree to the overall importance of being aware what (and how) one teaches and learns, however!


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