# What is "Traditional Ninjutsu"?



## Bob Hubbard

By our definition, it is the arts taught by the current Grandmaster, Dr. Maasake Hatsumi.  It also includes those groups which split off from Dr. Hatsumi but still remain true to the core ideals.

Please see the Ninja FAQ for more in-depth descriptions.

There are three main organizations. The Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan.
This forum is for the discussion of the history, techniques, concepts and ideas that relate directly to these groups.


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## r erman

> Over 70 different "ninjutsu ryu" have been catalogued/identified, however, the majority of them have died out. Most were developed around a series of specific skills and techniques and when the skills of a particular ryu were no longer in demand, the ryu would (usually) fade from existence. The three remaining ninjutsu ryu (Togakure ryu, Gyokushin ryu, and Kumogakure ryu) are encompassed in Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi's Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu system. These ryu, along with six other "bujutsu ryu" (Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, Gikan Ryu and Kukishinden Ryu), are taught as a collective body of knowledge (see Sub-Styles for other info).
> 
> This forum is for the discussion of the X-Kan families. They are: BujinKan, Genbukan and JinenKan. They are all decended from the Bujinkan organization of Hatsumi Sensei.



I applaud the effort to distinguish the differing groups.  Hopefully this will stave off many of the thread drifts that have occurred previously, I do have a question, however.

Why would a group such as To Shin Do qualify as a 'neo' group?  Obviously Steve's org is descended from Hatsumi Masaaki.  Irregardless of his 'unofficial' standing of late, he still gets diplomas from the Bujinkan Hombu for his shadows of iga rankings.

Also, where is the line drawn?  Is the Shinken Bujutsu system of Joe Svaral considered modern/neo?  He split off from the Genbukan a number of years ago, but still teaches the takamatsuden lineages(as well as some extras he learned from Tanemura).  I believe he even holds Menkyo Kaiden in one or more of the lineages aside from his modern dan rankings.  

What of Muramatsu-shihan's Myofu-An Dojo?

FWIW, i'm not trying to stir up anything.  I'm just curious, as the above criteria seem to fit the groups I've mentioned...


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## Bob Hubbard

Other lineages with a verifiable connection to Japan can be considered for inclusion of this list.  My understanding is that at this time, only those lineages defined as 'X-Kan' above have been thusly verified.

As to Mr. Hayes, while he does remain (AFAIK) a member of the Bujinkan, his ToShinDo is a modern adaptation of his training and is therefore not 'traditional' teaching.

I'm not aware of the others you mentioned.  Can anyone who is familiar with them quantify how they fit?

No worries on asking.  I'd like to see the list of both traditional and modern grow and evolve as we go.


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## Don Roley

I think that the example of Shorinji kenpo shoudl be looked at.

The founder is said to have studied in China at the Shaolin temple. But he was Japanese and founded his style when he got back to Japan. Despite the history of the founder, it is condsidered a Japanese art.

Then there is Kuntao. It is the name for arts started in Indonesia by Chinese residents. It is not ocnsidered Chinese, but rather Indonesian.

So, if an American studies a Japanese art, I do not think it makes it Japanese. It does not make it bad, just not Japanese. Hatsumi has come up with ways to use guns (very similar to the methods of Rex Applegate) but an art started in America has to deal with the legal problems unique to America and not Japan.

If Shinken Bujutsu people want to talk about the traditional katas they do in this forum, I do not see a problem. But if they want to talk about new modifications in the way things are done unique to them, then this (IMO) is not the right place. General would be a better place for that conversation and Modern for discussions about Shinken Bujutsu in particular.


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## sojobow

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Other lineages with a verifiable connection to Japan can be considered for inclusion of this list.


Please don't take offense but I have a question.  If a new school is started because the new Soke didn't believe the original school taught what it's original founder developed as written, which school would then be considered "Traditional?"

Can a Traditional school have a founder not born in Japan, but the school was conceived and developed in Japan and then given to a Japanese born person?


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## Kizaru

sojobow said:
			
		

> Please don't take offense but I have a question.


Please don't be offended by my answer.



			
				sojobow said:
			
		

> If a new school is started because the new Soke didn't believe the original school taught what it's original founder developed as written, which school would then be considered "Traditional?"


The original school would be considered traditional. The guy that didn't trust his teacher and named himself the new Soke would be considered "illegitimate", possibley even "self centered" or "an ego maniac". Usually, when someone passes their art onto someone else, they pass it on to them because they think that person will be able to pass it on correctly. I have of course heard of one situation where a Soke passed his art onto his adopted son, in hopes that the name would continue, but with the caveat that the adopted son needed to finish his training under the top student. After the father dies, the adopted son goes off proclaiming himself "Soke" without having completed training, and summarily brings embarrasment upon himself, "his" ryu and his father's name.




			
				sojobow said:
			
		

> Can a Traditional school have a founder not born in Japan, but the school was conceived and developed in Japan and then given to a Japanese born person?


Well, I think all the basics for traditional Japanese martial arts began in China (founder not born in Japan). Then were passed on to Japanese people during the Sengoku Jidai (Warring States Period) becoming "ryu ha". They became "traditional" by being passed down from generation to generation, and "Japanese" because those generations happened to be in (you guessed it) Japan. So even if you were to study a "Traditional art" and name yourself "the new Soke", unless you had a time machine, it wouldn't be "Traditional".

What I don't understand is why with such a wealth of traditional martial arts knowledge from immigrants, ex pats and combat vets in the US, "new" systems with American names haven't been developed. Like in Israel, they came up with "Krav Maga" which I think has some good stuff. They didn't go and call it "Israel ryu Boxing Judo", same as the Indonesians don't call Kun Tao "Kung Fu"....but I suppose that would be a topic for another thread, probably in another section.


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## Enson

it was my understanding that tradition can be started by doing something today and continueing it tomorrow. 

lets say that i started to shave my head every full moon. if i did that every month it would be a routine turned tradition.
then if i taught it to my children and then my children's children it would then be a tradition.

i.e. there was this lady who would make this roast. the best roast you had ever tasted. she learned from her mom. the secret was from an ancient family tradition of preparing the meat. one of the secrets was cutting the ends off of the meat. 3 inches on both sides. one day she was asked why it made the roast taste better? she didn't have an answer so she went to her mom. her mom couldn't tell her either so she went to her grandma. the grandma having invented the recipe (would be the soke), said "well the reason why i cut off the sides (3 inches on both sides) was because my oven pan was too small and i would have to cut the sides off to make the meat fit in my pan.

you see sometimes tradition is done for no real good reason at all. just something someone learned from another.

peace


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## Kreth

Another version:
The lady decides that her mother's roast is not very combat tasty. So she throws in a bunch of spices from other recipes, but still calls the end result "Grandma's Secret Roast Beef." 

Jeff


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## AaronLucia

I need to get me some of that Roast Beef!


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## Enson

AaronLucia said:
			
		

> I need to get me some of that Roast Beef!


me too! :ultracool


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## Enson

Kreth said:
			
		

> Another version:
> The lady decides that her mother's roast is not very combat tasty. So she throws in a bunch of spices from other recipes, but still calls the end result "Grandma's Secret Roast Beef."
> 
> Jeff


i have to admit that one made me laugh! :lol:


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## Flatlander

Enson said:
			
		

> it was my understanding that tradition can be started by doing something today and continueing it tomorrow.
> 
> lets say that i started to shave my head every full moon. if i did that every month it would be a routine turned tradition.
> you see sometimes tradition is done for no real good reason at all. just something someone learned from another.
> 
> peace


Yes, Enson.  But the important ingredient here is sameness.  If today, you shave your head, and next month, you shave only half of your head, it's no longer a head shaving tradition, it's a hairstyling tradition.

In this context, it refers to the arts taught as they always were, without modification, renaming, etc.  

But I know that you knew that.

The point of this isn't to redefine the art of ninjutsu, or to impose rules upon you, the artists.  The point is to lay out the rules of the forum, so that everybody can play nicely together.  In order to do that well, Kaith and the Adminstration needed to have some absolute definitions to lay a foundation for forum policy.

Dan


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## Don Roley

I think that for the purposes of this forum, before we figure out if the hypothetical example is a egotistical maniac or not, we have to determine if the guy really had a teacher, and if there was a link to Japan. This part of the forum is supposed to be for  ninjutsu arts that are known in Japan. If there is no link to Japan, or the guy can not even show proof he had a real teacher, then the rest of the question is moot.

And as for the example of the roast beef, I have seen a few people that tend to just follow tradition blindly. They go throguh the motions but never ask why those motions were created the way they were. They can quote lists of prior soke, but never learned the language, history, culture or wore the armor that privious generations did. And yes, they can be pretty pathetic.

On the other hand, I can point to several examples of people who "modernized", "Improved", "modified" or otherwise chaged what went on before and threw out the baby with the bath water. They either never learned the full breadth of the part being dropped, or they failed to take into account the interaction as a whole bettween a complete system. By eleiminating one thing, they impact other areas that are supposed to be built on it.

Daniel Furuya tells a story in his book "Kodo-Ancient Ways" about how he learned a certain move in aikido that he thought had no use. But since he is big on following what his teacher told him to do he continued training in it for traditions sake. Years later, he found out the meaning behind it and was able to make it a living part of his skill.

The key seems to be to suck the marrow from everything you are taught and learn as much about it as possible. I personally am not willing to drop something unless I know the reasons it is there in the first place and its relation with other aspects of the art. If I know the reasons, and know those reasons are not valid anymore, then I can drop it. Otherwise I will not know if the ends of the roast are to get it into a small oven or to let teh juices sink in. I will not declare mysellf a master and start dropping things I do not know completely and say that because I do not understand them, they must not have any use. I have seen too many modern creators of arts that do that and create laughable arts. I have faith enough in the charecter of my teachers and their abilities to beleive that they would knowingly teach me somethign that is not relevent for combat. So if they teach it, I should learn it. But if I do not know the full story behind the aspect, it only seems logical to learn as much about it as I can.


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## sojobow

Kizaru said:
			
		

> Please don't be offended by my answer.
> 
> The original school would be considered traditional. The guy that didn't trust his teacher and named himself the new Soke would be considered "illegitimate", possibley even "self centered" or "an ego maniac". Usually, when someone passes their art onto someone else, they pass it on to them because they think that person will be able to pass it on correctly.


Lets change this a little. Lets say that the "illegitimate" student found out through other sources (written syllibus, etc) that what the Soke was teaching was not what was originally taught by the school's founder. Thus, what the Soke would have pased on would not have been what was passed on to him. So the student started another school and proclaimed himself "teacher." Which one of the two schools is the legitimate school? In either event, there is a summary embarrasment that would need attention. 


> Well, I think all the basics for traditional Japanese martial arts began in China (founder not born in Japan).


Sounds familiar.


> Then were passed on to Japanese people during the Sengoku Jidai (Warring States Period) becoming "ryu ha". They became "traditional" by being passed down from generation to generation, and "Japanese" because those generations happened to be in (you guessed it) Japan. So even if you were to study a "Traditional art" and name yourself "the new Soke", unless you had a time machine, it wouldn't be "Traditional".


Which answers my next question which would have been: Can (say Don Foley for instance), who finds some scrolls in a cave (a la "the dead sea scrolls"). So, Mr. Foley, having a strong background in traditional arts and language, starts a new school based upon the ancient scrolls that he found (which were tested for authenticity and found priceless). Would this scenario be legitimate? (Must the element of being "passed on" - person-to-person be a necessary element?)


> What I don't understand is why with such a wealth of traditional martial arts knowledge from immigrants, ex pats and combat vets in the US, "new" systems with American names haven't been developed. Like in Israel, they came up with "Krav Maga" which I think has some good stuff. They didn't go and call it "Israel ryu Boxing Judo", same as the Indonesians don't call Kun Tao "Kung Fu"....but I suppose that would be a topic for another thread, probably in another section.


Good question. I know of one on the way but if I say it, this thread would get locked.


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## sojobow

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I think that for the purposes of this forum, before we figure out if the hypothetical example is a egotistical maniac or not, we have to determine if the guy really had a teacher, and if there was a link to Japan. This part of the forum is supposed to be for ninjutsu arts that are known in Japan. If there is no link to Japan, or the guy can not even show proof he had a real teacher, then the rest of the question is moot.


The remainder of this post I totally agree with. Only thing I can see that may not be clear to me is the "or the guy can not even show proof." I've read where a Soke revealed his Scrolls and was turned down and declared a fraud because one of the seals (whatever you call those stamps) was turned sideways according to Japanese custom. Document over 100 years old. Seems unfair. No room for mistakes.

But, as said, I totally agree with the remainder of your post.

Is there any way a "New" system can be introduced in Japan and be considered "Traditional?" and finally, who, or what organization is responsible in and for Japan that makes these determinations?


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## Don Roley

sojobow said:
			
		

> I've read where a Soke revealed his Scrolls and was turned down and declared a fraud because one of the seals (whatever you call those stamps) was turned sideways according to Japanese custom. Document over 100 years old. Seems unfair. No room for mistakes.



Sounds like a silly internet rumor. I take anything on the internet that starts out, "I've heard/read/ had explained to me....." with a grain of salt, especially if the poster can't point back to another source and may have some sort of agenda.



			
				sojobow said:
			
		

> Lets change this a little. Lets say that the "illegitimate" student found out through other sources (written syllibus, etc) that what the Soke was teaching was not what was originally taught by the school's founder. Thus, what the Soke would have pased on would not have been what was passed on to him. So the student started another school and proclaimed himself "teacher." Which one of the two schools is the legitimate school?



Not the guy that declared himself a teacher and tried to proclaim that what he was teaching as traditional, when he esentially made it up himself. That type of art would be called a recreated art. And there are some arts that have tried to recreate aspects that have been lost like the iai of the Kashima Shinto ryu. 

And the head of arts in Japan are allowed to make changes in an art- no one else. The responsibility of keeping an art alive and viable falls on one persons shoulders a generation. He is the only one who can change something to keep it alive and still keep the title of the art. Everyone else has to follow his lead. So if the teacher made changes in the art, if he was a soke, it would be his right.


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## sojobow

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Sounds like a silly internet rumor. I take anything on the internet that starts out, "I've heard/read/ had explained to me....." with a grain of salt, especially if the poster can't point back to another source and may have some sort of agenda.


Actually, I was hoping you knew exactly what I was referring to as the thread is in your e-budo/bad budo section. Since you were involved, I thought you'd remember and could help us understand what the significance of this error means.  Think of the instance where the owner of e-budo posted a scan of the scroll and all you (the usuals) posted your opinions as to what you all thought was wrong with the scroll.  Then, the owner removed the link to the picture of the scroll. There was also something about half of another seal was missing.  Interesting thread.  It just seemed an minor error that could never be corrected.



> And the head of arts in Japan are allowed to make changes in an art- no one else. The responsibility of keeping an art alive and viable falls on one persons shoulders a generation. He is the only one who can change something to keep it alive and still keep the title of the art. Everyone else has to follow his lead. So if the teacher made changes in the art, if he was a soke, it would be his right.


Makes sense to me.  Answers a lot of other questions I had.


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## Don Roley

sojobow said:
			
		

> Actually, I was hoping you knew exactly what I was referring to as the thread is in your e-budo/bad budo section. Since you were involved, I thought you'd remember and could help us understand what the significance of this error means.  Think of the instance where the owner of e-budo posted a scan of the scroll and all you (the usuals) posted your opinions as to what you all thought was wrong with the scroll.  Then, the owner removed the link to the picture of the scroll. There was also something about half of another seal was missing.  Interesting thread.  It just seemed an minor error that could never be corrected.



You are misrepresenting what happened to the certificate (not scrolls) that Jack Stern tried to use to prove he had a teacher. It was not a case of the stamp being turned sideways or anything like that. Among other things, one thing that proved he was a fraud was the fact that _the same exact seal_ was used on both the certificate he claimed to have gotten from a Japanese and from a Korean source.

He did not claim they were over 100 years old as you said, and it was not a case where we found fault just becasue a stamp was put on sideways, etc.


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## sojobow

Don Roley said:
			
		

> You are misrepresenting what happened to the certificate (not scrolls) that Jack Stern tried to use to prove he had a teacher. It was not a case of the stamp being turned sideways or anything like that. Among other things, one thing that proved he was a fraud was the fact that _the same exact seal_ was used on both the certificate he claimed to have gotten from a Japanese and from a Korean source.
> 
> He did not claim they were over 100 years old as you said, and it was not a case where we found fault just becasue a stamp was put on sideways, etc.


I remember reading the Jack Stern subject. You're right. But I do remember someone bringing up this other matter. Could have been used as an example by someone during the JacK Stern thread. I'll digress to your memory though.

I never could figure out why someone would take the chance of letting the certificate out in public. I just thought he didn't know there was a problem with the certificate since he wasn't Japanese and was just an honest mistake.

So that I don't have to go back and reread the thread, how old were these certificates supposed to have been (the originals)?


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## Kreth

sojobow said:
			
		

> I'll digress to your memory though.


I think you mean *defer*. Digress is what you normally do...

Jeff


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## Enson

Kreth said:
			
		

> I think you mean *defer*. Digress is what you normally do...
> 
> Jeff


another one that made me laugh :lol: i have to admit when i read the word i wondered if that was the correct word usage (couldn't remember the meaning). then i read the defenition! hee hee!

peace


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## Enson

Don Roley said:
			
		

> The key seems to be to suck the marrow from everything you are taught and learn as much about it as possible. I personally am not willing to drop something unless I know the reasons it is there in the first place and its relation with other aspects of the art. If I know the reasons, and know those reasons are not valid anymore, then I can drop it. Otherwise I will not know if the ends of the roast are to get it into a small oven or to let teh juices sink in. I will not declare mysellf a master and start dropping things I do not know completely and say that because I do not understand them, they must not have any use. I have seen too many modern creators of arts that do that and create laughable arts. I have faith enough in the charecter of my teachers and their abilities to beleive that they would knowingly teach me somethign that is not relevent for combat. So if they teach it, I should learn it. But if I do not know the full story behind the aspect, it only seems logical to learn as much about it as I can.


i absolutley agree with that!


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## Kizaru

sojobow said:
			
		

> Lets change this a little. .


Let's not and stick with "tradition".
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






			
				sojobow said:
			
		

> Lets say that the "illegitimate" student found out through other sources (written syllibus, etc) that what the Soke was teaching was not what was originally taught by the school's founder. Thus, what the Soke would have pased on would not have been what was passed on to him. .


From my perspective this is as hypothetical as saying "So I'm in the Belgian Congo and 15 Yakuza jump out from monkies' rear ends and come at me with Kung Fu skills that would make Kwai Chang Caine quiver. What do I do?" Heads of tradition(s) are chosen because the person before him believes the new head can not only continue with the tradition, but guide the next generation into re-discovering it for themselves. If they chose the wrong person, the ryu deserves to die.



			
				sojobow said:
			
		

> Can (say Don Foley for instance), who finds some scrolls in a cave (a la "the dead sea scrolls"). So, Mr. Foley, having a strong background in traditional arts and language, starts a new school based upon the ancient scrolls that he found (which were tested for authenticity and found priceless). Would this scenario be legitimate? (Must the element of being "passed on" - person-to-person be a necessary element?)


YES! THE PERSON TO PERSON ELEMENT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY!!! There is a ryu ha here in Japan that has multiple branches, one of those "branches" is lead by a group of people (Japanese) that bought old copies of the scrolls, practice the "moves" and claim authenticity through possesing the scrolls, but lack the proper distance, alignment, motivation, rhythm etc. From my perspective, the skills that are passed on through the lineage are more important than the documents; reality is more important than the image. Pieces of paper are thin; they won't stop punches.

Think about it. If Don had a pocketfull of cash, he could just saunter on down to Kanda, buy a few authentic densho and proclaim himself an expert in any number of ryu ha! How absurd is that!?!?!


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## Kreth

Kizaru said:
			
		

> Think about it. If Don had a pocketfull of cash, he could just saunter on down to Kanda, buy a few authentic densho and proclaim himself an expert in any number of ryu ha! How absurd is that!?!?!


Or he could make up a mysterious Japanese teacher, named, say Tanaka. Then he could further claim that Tanaka taught him (insert school believed to have died out here), but passed away just before he was to leave him any documentation. Yeah, when you put it like that, it is pretty absurd...

Jeff


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## AaronLucia

Hey, it would look good on a resume.


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## Enson

Kreth said:
			
		

> but passed away just before he was to leave him any documentation.
> Jeff


or any pictures taken with/of him. or maybe his wife/son... etc! hee hee! 

peace


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## sojobow

Kreth said:
			
		

> Or he could make up a mysterious Japanese teacher, named, say Tanaka. Then he could further claim that Tanaka taught him (insert school believed to have died out here), but passed away just before he was to leave him any documentation. Yeah, when you put it like that, it is pretty absurd...Jeff


Sounds like a real Ninja to me.


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## Kizaru

sojobow said:
			
		

> I digress again
> Could not it be possible that he chose his 12-year-old son while he (the father) was on his death bed. Seems Father-to-Son was also important at one time.


Anything is possible. This scenario is not PROBABLE. Like Yakuza jumping out of monkies' rear ends in the Belgian Congo.



			
				sojobow said:
			
		

> Bet the next 10 post won't address this issue. I hope a few post do address this point regardless of the Zen influences.


It's not a matter of "Dharma Transmission", it's a matter of the teacher guiding the student saying, "this is correct, this is incorrect, if you do this you get X, here try it yourself"...You know, teaching from experience. Anyone can make a cake from a book, but it takes a seasoned chef to make a great cake.


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## Kizaru

sojobow said:
			
		

> Or he could make up a mysterious Japanese teacher, named, say Tanaka. Then he could further claim that Tanaka taught him (insert school believed to have died out here), but passed away just before he was to leave him any documentation. Yeah, when you put it like that, it is pretty absurd...
> 
> Sounds like a real Ninja to me.


Maybe he could prove his lineage by picking a brick out of a stack and breaking it like they do in the movies...if nothing else, at least it would be entertaining.


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## DuckofDeath

Kreth said:
			
		

> Or he could make up a mysterious Japanese teacher, named, say Tanaka. Then he could further claim that Tanaka taught him (insert school believed to have died out here), but passed away just before he was to leave him any documentation. Yeah, when you put it like that, it is pretty absurd...



Click on the link, scroll down below "Social Security Death Index Search Results," enter "Senzo Tanaka," and see what you get:

http://ssdi.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi


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## Kreth

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> Click on the link, scroll down below "Social Security Death Index Search Results," enter "Senzo Tanaka," and see what you get:
> 
> http://ssdi.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi


Wow! There was *a* Senzo Tanaka that died in 1975. I apologize, apparently I was completely wrong and Dux really did train with him... Nah, sounds like someone either scoured the obituaries for a Japanese name or got lucky...

Jeff


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## Enson

can we all see a picture of tanaka? thats all i ask for... then the rest we can deal with later.

peace


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## Kreth

In any event, Dux' system is not traditional ninjutsu. Take it to the modern forum...

Jeff


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## Enson

Kreth said:
			
		

> In any event, Dux' system is not traditional ninjutsu. Take it to the modern forum...
> 
> Jeff


no!  wouldn't dux' system be a traditional topic (for bashing purposes) for traditional ninpo practicioners? i think its fine here on this side!  

peace


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## DuckofDeath

Kreth said:
			
		

> Wow! There was *a* Senzo Tanaka that died in 1975. I apologize, apparently I was completely wrong and Dux really did train with him... Nah, sounds like someone either scoured the obituaries for a Japanese name or got lucky...



But Dux is actually mentioned in the Senzo Tanaka SSDI info that comes up.  Bring it up again, and under "Tools," click "View Post-em."


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## Bester

All this documentation and firsthand stuff in nice, but what about the real historys?
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17473

Master SloJoBlow we wait with
Bated breath to hear your words of wisdom.


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## Camosam81

hey all, I just wondered, has anyone here verified firsthand the validity of a ninja school??   

Why come out now and sell courses on DVD when cloaked in secrecy for so long, and especially selling the art to westerners?? 

Seems funny.

Just seeking some real info.

-M


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## r erman

> Why come out now and sell courses on DVD when cloaked in secrecy for so long, and especially selling the art to westerners??



Well, if you have studied japanese feudal history you would know that shinobi no jutsu(aka ninjutsu) ws an accepted part of japanese warfare, and not some secret cult.  The idea of ninjutsu as separate from samurai systems is a fallacy born of cinema, comics, and speculation.  Many schools of samurai bugei contain ninjutsu, and these schools have also proliferated to the West.

If Hatsumi hadn't been established as teaching elements of ninjutsu before the 80's ninja boom who knows what the enrollment of the various takamatsuden organizations would now be, however he was teaching publicly as early as the sixties.

As the ninja craze was starting you had people like Steve Hayes returning from their training in Japan.  This did nothing but add fuel to the fire.  It is really no different than people obsessed with Kwai Caine Chang(sp) and the old kung fu series going to China and finding that Shaolin still exists--but just like that example the reality was far different from the myth...

Very few people use the ninjutsu label at all within the x-kans and their various offshoots.


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## Camosam81

Ha ha...  wel, maybe I have studied a bit of japanese history, but that doesn't change the fact that there has been a very prevalent anti-westerner attitude, and that all ryu, samurai and ninja, did have certain methods that they prefferred to have hidden from others.  Tended to give them the upper hand.

In regards to traditional ninjutsu, you would support Hatsumi??  Would you support the basic stuff being taught through the Van Donk Bujinkan DVD course??

I have no doubt that I could learn through the medium of DVD, but I just want to know what others' take is on this...

-M


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## Enson

Camosam81 said:
			
		

> I have no doubt that I could learn through the medium of DVD, but I just want to know what others' take is on this...
> 
> -M


 you will find different opinions on this (like anything else). imo i believe dvd is a good way to learn if you have communication with your sensei or instructors. you will need a training partner too. also if you at least get a chance to train every once in awhile in a school atmosphere that would help too.
rvdonk is on a thread i created some time ago. not much said about him so i would think go for it! he seems like he has a decent course. i have never seen any videos but his site is informative.
peace


----------



## r erman

Camosam81 said:
			
		

> Ha ha...  wel, maybe I have studied a bit of japanese history, but that doesn't change the fact that there has been a very prevalent anti-westerner attitude, and that all ryu, samurai and ninja, did have certain methods that they prefferred to have hidden from others.  Tended to give them the upper hand.
> 
> In regards to traditional ninjutsu, you would support Hatsumi??  Would you support the basic stuff being taught through the Van Donk Bujinkan DVD course??
> 
> I have no doubt that I could learn through the medium of DVD, but I just want to know what others' take is on this...
> 
> -M



Many combative secrets to classical systems are taught through 'kuden', or oral tradition.  Others you can only get through feel--they don't always make sense verbally.  Ways of attacking multiple balance points, how to use footwork to move closer to an opponent without seeming closer, how to hide the true length of a blade through taking advantage of 'blind spots' in the eye...etc, these things are taught from the beginning to new people, but very few can discern this for years.

Ironically, alot of scroll 'secrets' in koryu systems have very little value to today's society--medicinal salves for wounds(antiquated stuff if you have access to a drugstore or are good with herbs), mixtures to keep lice out of yoroi(armor)--not very useful in our time period.

I've never seen RVD's stuff, so I cannot comment on its quality.  I will say that video can be useful if you have a good understanding of movement.  I have old footage of backyard training and various seminars that are non-commercial material.  There are often little jewels for training interspersed throughout, but it takes a good grounding in taijutsu principles to pick up.


----------



## sojobow

Camosam81 said:
			
		

> hey all, I just wondered, has anyone here verified firsthand the validity of a ninja school?? .....Just seeking some real info....-M


Silence is deafening.  Anyone care to answer Camosam81's question?  No.  I didn't think so.  Try anyway.  Moderator needs this information.


----------



## Kizaru

sojobow said:
			
		

> Silence is deafening. Anyone care to answer Camosam81's question? No. I didn't think so. Try anyway. Moderator needs this information.


Don't think so fast! I've verified 5 since I've been in Japan.


----------



## Cryozombie

sojobow said:
			
		

> Silence is deafening.  Anyone care to answer Camosam81's question?  No.  I didn't think so.  Try anyway.  Moderator needs this information.



Which Moderator asked for it?


----------



## sojobow

Kizaru said:
			
		

> Don't think so fast! I've verified 5 since I've been in Japan.


5 schools of Traditional Ninjutsu? That's real interesting. Think someone else in this section said they couldn't find one (other than their current venue). So it is possible. 3 are named in this section, all having 1 original Soke. Does your 5 include these 3 Kans?


----------



## heretic888

Well, first off, it would be nice if some actual names were given...


----------



## Bester

Traditional is something that traces its roots back to Japan.
There is some documentation, historical sites, or records.
Some may argue that their history is an "oral" one, one of uneducated farmers who couldn't read or write.
That is nice, but meaningless.
Someone would have had a mention.  
The local government they fought against, a local ruler who dealt with them, etc.
We have records naming soldiers who fought wars from over 3,000 years ago.
Certainly we can find a mention for a group that is less than 600 years old?

Hatsumi and his "spin offs" are the recognized lineages.  Others that had existed have gone extinct with no credible successors in existence.

I'd say unless they can back it up with proof, leave them in the fantasy-land that is "Modern".

If you are going to claim "Traditional", then be prepared to present proof.


----------



## Kizaru

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Well, first off, it would be nice if some actual names were given...


1. Gyokkshin ryu Ninjutsu (still alive)
2. Togakure ryu Ninpo Taijutsu (still alive)
3. Kumogakure ryu Ninjutsu (still alive)
4. Katori Shinto ryu hyouhou (has a ninjutsu section to it)
5. Koga ryu (died with Fujita Seiko in an unfortunate accident)

The above 5 I've been able to verify for myself beyond the shadow of a doubt. The following I've looked into, but as they are all "exinct" whether or not they actually existed, I haven't verified for myself yet...but they are ALL clearly exinct.

1. Haguro ryu Ninjutsu (from the group of mountains known as Dewa Sanzan, famous today for keeping Shugendo and Yamabushi practices alive.
2. Yagyu ryu Ninjutsu (supposedly active East of Tokyo along the road known today as "Route 6" during the Edo period. My main source for this information is from a shihan in the Bujinkan whose ancestors were part of this group.
3. Hakkun ryu Ninjutsu (supposedly a forerunner of Iga ryu, mentioned in Hatsumi sensei's books as well as other reputable sources.)
4. Takeda ryu ninjutsu (I could be wrong, but I thought this is the ryu the Bansenshukai was based on...Don, what's "the Roley Collection" got?

5 + 4 = 9! A lucky number!


----------



## Don Roley

Kizaru said:
			
		

> 4. Katori Shinto ryu hyouhou (has a ninjutsu section to it)



Just because something has a ninjutsu section in it does not make it a "ninjutsu" school. Take a look at Gyokko ryu. It has a ninpo section and yet you did not list it as a ninjutsu school. In fact, I can name a few other arts that have what might be called ninjutsu in them. They do not practice what the _Bansenshuki_ lists as being essential to be called a full fledged ninja, but like the Katori, they do teach sneaking around- or at least used to.

If you go into the military you will learn first aid. That does not make you a medic. Same thing here. A lot of arts try to put out well rounded practicioners, but they do not go into the detail and emphisis that diferentiates between a rifleman trained in camoflauge and marksmanship and a sniper. So ask the Katori Shinto ryu and they will tell you that they are not a ninjutsu school.

Oh and I do not think that the Bansenshukai was based on Takeda ryu. It was shared by the Iga and Koga areas during the Edo period.


----------



## Kizaru

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Just because something has a ninjutsu section in it does not make it a "ninjutsu" school. Take a look at Gyokko ryu. It has a ninpo section and yet you did not list it as a ninjutsu school..


Gyokko ryu Ninpo? I think I know what you're talking about here. On the "Takamatsu DVD" there's a part where some densho are shown, and one of them says "Gyokko ryu Ninpo" on it, but saying, "Gyokko ryu was a _NINJUTSU_ school" wouldn't be correct. I'd agree with you in saying that "Katori Shinto ryu is NOT a ninjutsu school", but from my perspective, it has/had a ninjutsu school _within _it. Not everyone in the ryu studies it, just like every Infantryman doesn't go to Sniper School...



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> Oh and I do not think that the Bansenshukai was based on Takeda ryu. It was shared by the Iga and Koga areas during the Edo period.


I thought that it was; maybe I'm getting my wires crossed, I'll have to go back and check my sources. I know I've seen other references to Takeda ryu in the "Ninryu Collection" (private library in Umesato, Noda City).

I've heard that there are about 70 Ninjutsu ryu that are documented, although most of them have already been proven extinct. Anything in the "Roley Collection" that supports this?:asian:


----------



## Don Roley

Kizaru said:
			
		

> I've heard that there are about 70 Ninjutsu ryu that are documented, although most of them have already been proven extinct. Anything in the "Roley Collection" that supports this?:asian:



I just did a quick count of the list of "ninjutsu ryuha" in the book 
_Ninja no Subete._ It lists over a hundred, but I noticed that Gyokko ryu was listed as well. Some of the schools might also be listed more than once under varient names.


----------



## heretic888

Two things I'd like to add:

1) I struck me as if the terms "ninjutsu" and "ninpo" were being used interchangeably. Do you believe this is so, that they are interchangeable terms??

2) I seem to recall reading in one of Hayes' old books that the Takeda ryu was formed by Takeda Shingen (a warlord during the Sengoku Jidai, not the Edo period). Supposedly, it was disbanded after his death.

Laterz all.  :asian:


----------



## ninhito

hey guys i have a question.  How far up is standard when you do sho ten no jutsu.  o yeah and do you guys use kunai as weapons because the ninja have a whole lot of them.  O yeah and another thing is when you guys train do you guys use naginata (my favorite weapon, almost up there with the halberd, only problem is that there are no training schools for that any more).  Do you guys spar for real like full, anything goes 'til somebody bleeds or something. O yeah and do you guys learn kuji-kiri.  i think thats the best way to get a bully off your back, and off your head and arms and legs and everything else.


----------



## Don Roley

Ninhito,
Welcome to the Traditional Ninjutsu section. I think you will have better luck in going back over the posts here and in the general section on the matters you asked about. Lots of information has already been put out on martialtalk, too much to put all in one thread.

Check out the search function and type in words such as "kunai" and you will probably have pages of stuff to read over.


----------



## Kizaru

ninhito said:
			
		

> o yeah and do you guys use kunai as weapons because the ninja have a whole lot of them. ...


Do you read "NARUTO", the Japanese comic about the boy ninja?


----------



## ninhito

yeah, why do you ask?  O man dont tell me. Im sorry. You guys dont use those, do you. Darnnit!!


----------



## ninhito

They have sooo many uses. Most of these uses i never even saw in the manga. They could be used like knives/shuriken/defensive stuff and they could pin unless the person tore himself or his clothing from the wall and could do other stuff. Maaaaan i thought that was cool weapon for fuedal japan to have too. D'OH


----------



## Kizaru

ninhito said:
			
		

> Do you guys spar for real like full, anything goes 'til somebody bleeds or something.


At the dojo I train at, people who bleed and stop sparring are considered, "sissies". We like to say, "It's all fun and games until someone looses an eye....then it's hilarious". So it's easy to tell who trains at my dojo because we all walk around with eyepatches (some people have two!) and talk like pirates...

Aaarrrgh!


----------



## Don Roley

Hmmm, can someone please explain to me how the comic book "Naruto" is related to a conversation about traditional ninjutsu?

I still say that for the purposes of this forum, the definition of "traditional" was best detailed by Bester when he wrote the following.



> Traditional is something that traces its roots back to Japan.
> There is some documentation, historical sites, or records.
> Some may argue that their history is an "oral" one, one of uneducated farmers who couldn't read or write.
> That is nice, but meaningless.
> Someone would have had a mention.
> The local government they fought against, a local ruler who dealt with them, etc.
> We have records naming soldiers who fought wars from over 3,000 years ago.
> Certainly we can find a mention for a group that is less than 600 years old?



As I understand the purpose of this forum, it is for groups that can be found in Japan. That is it. I hope not to see any sniping between the x-kans here. I do not see anything that says that the moderators can determine if a school found in Japan is worthy or not. If their sources check out in Japan, then this is the place for them.

I know some Bujinkan members who have problems with ex-students of Hatsumi. And I have seen some students of those ex-students that take shots at the Bujinkan. It is getting pretty old IMO.


----------



## ninhito

Its okay isnt it.  Man i didnt know there was much difference in the ninjutsu then than now.


----------



## Mountain Kusa

On page 21 of "The Way of the Ninja, Secret Techniques" under the section Ninjutsu Diversity Sensei says; " I have learned many schools of ninjutsu via Isshi Soden- Togakure Ryu, Koto Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu, Gyokushin Ryu, Gikan Ryu, and so on - and now discharge my duties as their Grandmaster."

If we are to accept what Sensei says in his book, then they are ninjutsu Ryu. This was a supprising passage in the book for me.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

He is Japanese, you know...


----------



## Mountain Kusa

Nimravus said:
			
		

> He is Japanese, you know...


Im not sure I follow you here, Isshi soden "transmission from father to son" is this to what you refer?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Umm, no...he's Japanese, my point was that you have to consider that when you read the things he writes.


----------



## Tenjin

Just a random thought, just because something is a "ninjutsu" ryu does not mean it had anything to do with guys in black sneaking around, or any of the other stereotypes of ninjutsu.


----------



## Kizaru

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> ....then they are ninjutsu Ryu. This was a supprising passage in the book for me.


So are you asking a question, or making a statement here?


----------



## Mountain Kusa

Statement. I was always taught that only Togakure, Gyokushin, and Kumogakure Ryu were ninjutsu Ryu, so this was supprising to me. Later through my own studies and before the book came out, I had a dream that said Gyokko and Koto were also Ninjutsu Ryu. I shared the strange dream with those I train with and then this new Book from Sensei came out, so it was doubly supprising.


----------



## Dale Seago

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> Statement. I was always taught that only Togakure, Gyokushin, and Kumogakure Ryu were ninjutsu Ryu, so this was supprising to me. Later through my own studies and before the book came out, I had a dream that said Gyokko and Koto were also Ninjutsu Ryu. I shared the strange dream with those I train with and then this new Book from Sensei came out, so it was doubly supprising.



Just to hopefully make things a bit more precise, as far as I know only those three were ryu of ninjutsu (with varying amounts/types of close-combat skills associated with them); but two others, Gyokko and Koto ryu, while not ninjutsu schools per se, were (according to _kuden_) close-combat schools which happened to be picked up and adopted by ninja ryu operating in the Iga area.

"Ninjutsu", as such, really refers to the primary specialties/functions of historic ninja groups: intelligence collection and the associated skills of infiltration, disguise, running agent networks, clandestine communications methods, and use of specialized gear. Fighting or close combat played little part in any of that, unless an agent somehow "screwed the pooch" and got caught under suspicious circumstances in some unauthorized place.

And as you'd know, those particular traditional skills are for the most part not formally taught in the Bujinkan today, having been superceded by technological developments. Instead the focus is on the fighting methods, which are still applicable.

As far as other schools such as Gikan ryu are concerned -- well, since Hatsumi sensei is Soke of all nine, if he wants to speak of them as "ninjutsu" or otherwise "make them part of" ninjutsu, he can do that. I'm not going to try to tell him he's wrong.  :uhyeah:


----------



## Mountain Kusa

Dale,

      Thanks for the clarification. I guess the way we are being taught now where all this gets mixed together and comes out in our taijutsu, he can now say, "it is now". Unless I am working on something ryu specific, then I dont do into a fight saying i am going to use Gyokko Ryu, No, I do whatever is needed to stay safe regardless of what ryu it comes from. If we use the TCJ as an example, it comes from many ryu. More layers.


----------



## heretic888

The following is from a recent post by Jeff Mueller on kutaki.org:

_I would caution anyone reading this though to do some research and not limit yourself to the popular viewpoint that the Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu and Gikan Ryu are not Ninjutsu ryu ha._


----------



## Don Roley

heretic888 said:
			
		

> The following is from a recent post by Jeff Mueller on kutaki.org:
> 
> _I would caution anyone reading this though to do some research and not limit yourself to the popular viewpoint that the Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu and Gikan Ryu are not Ninjutsu ryu ha._



I have done a lot of research, and even talked to quite a few Japanese shihan on the matter. Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu were passed down through the Iga area and through the same people who studied ninjutsu. But they are not in the same catagory as Togakure ryu ninjutsu. Go ahead and ask some of the Japanese on the matter. Try telling them that Gyokko ryu is like Togakure ryu. If you are lucky, have a relationship with them and have the time they may even show you how the taijutsu of both schools are different for very different reasons.


----------



## heretic888

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I have done a lot of research, and even talked to quite a few Japanese shihan on the matter. Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu were passed down through the Iga area and through the same people who studied ninjutsu. But they are not in the same catagory as Togakure ryu ninjutsu. Go ahead and ask some of the Japanese on the matter. Try telling them that Gyokko ryu is like Togakure ryu. If you are lucky, have a relationship with them and have the time they may even show you how the taijutsu of both schools are different for very different reasons.



*grins*  :supcool: 

I'm not the one that said it. Jeff did.

I was merely interested to hear everyone's thoughts on this statement. 

Discussion, and all that jazz.

Laterz.  :asian:


----------



## Don Roley

heretic888 said:
			
		

> I was merely interested to hear everyone's thoughts on this statement.
> 
> Discussion, and all that jazz.



Discussion is fine, except when it is not. I guess all the Japanese disdain for internet experts is wearing off on me.

You can have a great discussion about medicine, but if no one is a MD and no one can deal with or understand the meaning of any facts then it is just a waste of time, eh?

I might be less testy about the matter if I had not just been reviewing a thread about ninja staight bladed swords and thought about how much was being made over so little hard evidence. I swear, once someone had his pet theory blown out of the water due to the fact that Hatsumi did not really write what they thought some people go to extreme lengths to defend their position.

We may not have MDs in the Bujinkan, but we have MKs- _Menkyo Kaiden_ holders. A lot of the silly screaming on the internet would end if people who fancy themselves experts in some aspect of the Bujinkan would go and ask a teacher that hold _Menkyo Kaiden_ in damn near anything by Hatsumi and trains with him on a weekly basis about the matter. Or go to the head man himself!!!! But instead I see far too many people take the little time they have on their brief trips out here with Hatsumi to hint at their next rank promotion.

But of course, asking questions in Japan is an art in itself. Most people don't understand that. Japanese do not like to be the bearer of bad news. I will give an example. A few years ago I took a visiting friend to visit a Japanese shihan I did not normally train with. After I introduced him and myself I sat by the wall stretching out. A Japanese student came up and talked to the shihan and said that my old American instructor (the guy I call "the evil one") was in Japan. The shihan said, "Is he still as stuck up as ever?"

Lately, I have had a bit more free time during the week and have started going to this shihan's training. A few weeks ago we were talking before class and he asked me who I trained with before I came to Japan. I reluctantly told him and after a pause he said, "He certainly is full of energy and spirit." I then told him that I have not communicated with the evil one by choice since I have lived in Japan and I did not want to talk about him and he seemed to have brightened.

When he thought I had a stake in the evil one's status he did not try to dispell my opinion. The same goes for opinons about things like whether Gyokko ryu is like Togakure ryu. If you seem to have a stake in the matter they might not want to destroy your cherished dreams. But if you have a long term relationship based on years of weekly training and/or you state it in terms like , "I recently heard XXXX- can you tell me if that is true" you are more likely to get a straight answer.

it might also help if you can look at a Japanese newspaper and know what the head lines are about or know things like why the 18 catagories uses 'ban' for a counter while the 36 catagories uses 'kei' for a counter. I got some extra attention a few weeks back from a teacher because I was the onlyone in the room who knew who Sakamoto Ryoma was and how he died. If you put in the time to understand the matter by learning to read well enough to read Japanese newspapers or comment on esoteric Japanese religions you do not look like one of those guys demanding that you have all the answers laid out on a silver platter.

But how many Menkyo Kaiden holders in Togakure ryu, Gyokko ryu or Koto ryu are there on the internet?

Rant mode off. :soapbox:


----------



## heretic888

Don Roley said:
			
		

> You can have a great discussion about medicine, but if no one is a MD and no one can deal with or understand the meaning of any facts then it is just a waste of time, eh?



Well, I dunno about that....

For example, right now I'm completing my undergrad coursework for my bachelor's degree in psychology. Now, I am not a professional psychologist, obviously. Nor by any stretch of the imagination am I a "expert" or "authority" in the field.

However, despite all that, I am still _far_ more knowledgeable and experienced in the subject matter than Average Joe. 

I, for example, am familiar with the basic theories of the various psychological schools (psychoanalytic, constructivist, social-learning, evolutionary, behaviorist, humanist, etc.), am well-versed in the various ways of conducting and evaluating psychological experiments, knowledgeable on several of the peer-reviewed psychological journals out there (including electronic resources), have written several research articles on various psychological subjects, and regularly read published works by different theorists in my own spare time (such as, for example, Howard Gardner's recent revisions to his Multiple Intelligences Theory or James Fowler's recent research into the hiearchic development of "religious faith").

In other words, while I still have a long way to go, I could give you a pretty decent discussion (maybe even debate) in, say, developmental psychology (my principal field of interest). Yet, I'm in possession of no degree indicating such.

Of course, I'm sure things are quite different with ninjutsu.... 

Just my thoughts, in any event.  :asian:


----------



## Don Roley

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Of course, I'm sure things are quite different with ninjutsu....



Yes and no.

Most of us can tell you enough about ninjutsu to say that sai, nunchaku, etc were not used by the ninja. We do not have jumping, spinning back kicks, we do not use Chinese terms, etc.

But for Cthulu's sake, how many arguments and speculations on the internet could be stopped in their track by someone actually going to Hatsumi and asking him directly? Or if that is not possible, ask someone who can get the answer from him? People look at a book supposably written by Hatsumi and quote a section about straight swords. When they are told that is not really written by him they post pictures of Hatsumi holding a sword at an angle that _just maybe_ be a straight sword. And the debate goes on. So has anyone in all these debates tried going to Hatsumi or the senior Japanese and actually ask them about the matter?????


----------



## Kizaru

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Well, I dunno about that....
> 
> For example, right now I'm completing my undergrad coursework for my bachelor's degree in psychology. Now, I am not a professional psychologist, obviously. Nor by any stretch of the imagination am I a "expert" or "authority" in the field.
> 
> However, despite all that, I am still _far_ more knowledgeable and experienced in the subject matter than Average Joe.


Before this goes any further, I would like to point out 2 things to all involved;

1) Look at the screen name, "Don Roley, Not a Nice Guy"

and

2) "Compassion is not a Roley word" -Roley Creed

With that, I leave you to your devices.

Gassho.


----------



## Shogun

> However, despite all that, I am still _far_ more knowledgeable and experienced in the subject matter than Average Joe.


I have another example. I am typically considered an "expert" in the field of Herpetolgy. I am by no means a PhD in Biology, but I have spent years learning from Herpetologists, bred reptiles for 8 years and studied under several well known Biologists. 
BTW, someone or a Mod should make a good Q&A/FAQ about stuff like, "did Ninja use straight swords, Tonfa, or Sai?" type of stuff.
The example I always use for the use of straight swords is: Ninja are often compared to today's special forces. (even if not). would today's special forces use a crappy gun when the enemy is using a good gun? would they take a really good weapon (ex; Katana) and make a weapon that is cheaper and breaks? (ex;straight blade "nin-to")


KE


----------



## Superflea

Kizaru said:


> What I don't understand is why with such a wealth of traditional martial arts knowledge from immigrants, ex pats and combat vets in the US, "new" systems with American names haven't been developed. Like in Israel, they came up with "Krav Maga" which I think has some good stuff.



Perhaps you haven't heard about the Marines fighting system. From what I hear of it (not much, mind you), it seems to be much along the lines of Krav Maga in that it is composed of things borrowed from a variety of sources, and compiled into a system suitable for their purposes.


----------



## Don Roley

Superflea said:


> Perhaps you haven't heard about the Marines fighting system. From what I hear of it (not much, mind you), it seems to be much along the lines of Krav Maga in that it is composed of things borrowed from a variety of sources, and compiled into a system suitable for their purposes.




He has. Trust me on this. His point was that there is not a system that you can get by going down to the local mini mall and sign up for like you can Krav Magda.

I think there is a lot of new arts in America. But they use a lot of Asian terminology instead of good, simple English. "Instinctive Response" is one exception to this generalization. But for every one of those is some art that just _has_ to use some Asian name to peddle itself.


----------



## kaizasosei

this goes out to all the bashers and haters of ninjutsu.  i  read the stuff in the closed thread and am very shocked just how infantile and petty the arguments were.

ok i realize there are some people training for a long time and have troubles with the rude idiots... also i can understand people standing up for their school. that is not the point.  the point i would like to make is that the arguments were really petty.  flamewaring etc about almost trivial details within relatively' related schools.  

i think people like that should take a break from ninjutsu for 6 months to a year and reconsider their behaviour.  not about behaviour really, i'm not anyone to be tellling' anyone what to do.  i simply am shocked at the low level of understanding and the insecurity vented to and fro.  i mean if people fight about really dumb topics like that, then how would they ever really get along.  open your minds...the other martial artists, don't even know anything about ninjutsu and could probably still kick your asses.. that's what it's all about right...who's the invicible ninja- and who isn't .



sorry for being so negative.

j


----------



## kwaichang

Bob Hubbard said:


> By our definition, it is the arts taught by the current Grandmaster, Dr. Maasake Hatsumi. It also includes those groups which split off from Dr. Hatsumi but still remain true to the core ideals.
> 
> Please see the Ninja FAQ for more in-depth descriptions.
> 
> There are three main organizations. The Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan.
> This forum is for the discussion of the history, techniques, concepts and ideas that relate directly to these groups.


 
Well the Japanese Government has *certified* the 900 yr old scrolls that Dr. Hatsumi has, proving his (Tokakure) lineage.  No other school (ryu) can say the same.
The Koga-Ryu, went extinct when it's last grandmaster didn't pass on his scrolls or endorse a ligimate successor so that knocks out a bunch of people who claim that school as theirs.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

kwaichang said:


> Well the Japanese Government has *certified* the 900 yr old scrolls that Dr. Hatsumi has, proving his (Tokakure) lineage. No other school (ryu) can say the same.
> The Koga-Ryu, went extinct when it's last grandmaster didn't pass on his scrolls or endorse a ligimate successor so that knocks out a bunch of people who claim that school as theirs.


 
What if I told you that the Togakure ryu lineage includes people from both Iga and Koga?


----------



## kwaichang

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> What if I told you that the Togakure ryu lineage includes people from both Iga and Koga?


Of course it does.  They once belonged to the same Ryu but split off to form their own.

I've been and seen.  Thanks for your reply.


----------



## AbsZero

Here is nice picture, from '71. 
I know it's not as long ago as beginning of Togakure Ryu, but it's nice to se Takamatsu sensei with Hatsumi sensei and his students all in one place... 

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]_ First row - Ishizuka Shihan, Takamatsu Soke, Hatsumi Soke_[/FONT]​ [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]_ Second row - Newspaper reporter, Tanemura Shihan , Oguri Shihan,  Manaka Shihan_[/FONT]​ [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]_ Third row - Kobayashi Shihan, Seno Shihan_[/FONT]​


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## jks9199

AbsZero said:


> Here is nice picture, from '71.
> I know it's not as long ago as beginning of Togakure Ryu, but it's nice to se Takamatsu sensei with Hatsumi sensei and his students all in one place...
> 
> [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]_ First row - Ishizuka Shihan, Takamatsu Soke, Hatsumi Soke_[/FONT]​ [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]_ Second row - Newspaper reporter, Tanemura Shihan , Oguri Shihan,  Manaka Shihan_[/FONT]​ [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]_ Third row - Kobayashi Shihan, Seno Shihan_[/FONT]​


Just an interesting observation...

Three faces stand out from the others in that photo.  Takamatsu, Hatsumi, and guy in the back row on the right.  The guy second from the right in the middle row has some of the same thing -- but not as much.

Don't know what it means, don't know that it means anything at all... but it's interesting.


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## rdonovan1

DuckofDeath said:


> But Dux is actually mentioned in the Senzo Tanaka SSDI info that comes up. Bring it up again, and under "Tools," click "View Post-em."


 
They must have changed that since then because it is no longer accessible on their website. 

It is interesting though that there actually was a Senzo Tanaka. While I like the movie BloodSport which is supposed to be based upon Frank Dux's life I doubt very seriously that he ever really did study with Senzo Tanaka at all. I personally think that he is full of it, but I can't prove it because I really don't know for sure.

All that I know is that the movie itself is great for motivating oneself to really want to learn and to really want to seek out the truth.


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## shirobanryunotora

Bob Hubbard said:


> By our definition, it is the arts taught by the current Grandmaster, Dr. Maasake Hatsumi.  It also includes those groups which split off from Dr. Hatsumi but still remain true to the core ideals.
> 
> Please see the Ninja FAQ for more in-depth descriptions.
> 
> There are three main organizations. The Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan.
> This forum is for the discussion of the history, techniques, concepts and ideas that relate directly to these groups.


Hi again-have gone through much of this threads data-have a question regarding the definition parameter used. Wouldn't it be more apt to include all of prev.Soke Takamatsu's lineages and teachings rather than only those handed down through Soke Hatsumi?(unless Soke Hatsumi got them all? in which case ignore this question) Soke Takamatsu "gathered" many lineages and teachings together as such and imo deserves full recognition for the perpetuation of all the arts collectively etc-or am i missing the point? Just a thought-till the next rr


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## Chris Parker

Hatsumi Sensei appears to have gotten all of the "ninjutsu related" systems, and that appears to have been a large focus of his training under Takamatsu Sensei. Other people seemed to receive primarily lines of Takagi Ryu and Kukishin Ryu (samurai systems, for want of a better term), with a few such as Ueno Sensei recieving a few such as Koto Ryu as well. Fukumoto Sensei is said to have been the only other person to have recieved Menkyo Kaiden in Togakure Ryu under Takamatsu, and Sato Kinbei's site (managed by his daughter) indicates possible Gyokko Ryu training, although it's rendered as Tama Tora Ryu (same kanji, different reading), leading some to think that if he did recieve it, he didn't pass it on, as the simple knowledge of how to correctly read the kanji isn't shown there.


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## EWBell

Chris Parker said:


> Hatsumi Sensei appears to have gotten all of the "ninjutsu related" systems, and that appears to have been a large focus of his training under Takamatsu Sensei. Other people seemed to receive primarily lines of Takagi Ryu and Kukishin Ryu (samurai systems, for want of a better term), with a few such as Ueno Sensei recieving a few such as Koto Ryu as well. Fukumoto Sensei is said to have been the only other person to have recieved Menkyo Kaiden in Togakure Ryu under Takamatsu, and Sato Kinbei's site (managed by his daughter) indicates possible Gyokko Ryu training, although it's rendered as Tama Tora Ryu (same kanji, different reading), leading some to think that if he did recieve it, he didn't pass it on, as the simple knowledge of how to correctly read the kanji isn't shown there.


 
The traditions Sato Kinbei sensei received from Takamatsu Sensei are Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu (Ishitani-den), and Gikan Ryu Koppojutsu.  The mention of Gyokko Ryu (Tama Tora Ryu) is in the list of schools that Takamatsu Sensei taught, but as far as I know Sato Kinbei Sensei never received any license in Gyokko Ryu.


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## blackswordshinobi2014

. Dr. Maasake Hatsumi. is Traditional Ninjutsu there before age of Hatsumi that the shinobi no mono or ninja had another way that was Traditional Ninjutsu spying scouting  and misdirection intelligent gething  was normal ninjutsu  at the time there also part of samurai cutler and military


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## Chris Parker

Okay, let's translate this…

Dr Masaaki Hatsumi is the head of a number of ryu-ha that lay claim to being traditional ninjutsu, or are related to such. These methods and traditions are interspersed with more "standard" bushi (warrior) traditions, which is where the bulk of the combative methods come from. Historically speaking, the concept of ninjutsu was more in line with information gathering, spying, sabotage etc, and ninjutsu was just part of a larger martial skill-set and methodology. Then, there were the groups associated with Iga and Koga (Kohka) who combined both martial methods and the aforementioned espionage in their approach.

None of this is news, nor is it anything that hasn't been said here before, of course.


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