# Pros/Cons of the blitz method



## monji112000 (Mar 2, 2007)

Allot Wing Chun people use this method almost exclusively. The basic premise is you jam the center as fast and hard as possible normally chain punching. Sometimes a small amount of kicking or pak sao is used but the main goal is the center at all costs (mostly chain punching). 

Who here has used this in a real scenario?  meaning free-fight tournament /NHB tournament/ free-sparring with Boxers/thai ect.. NOT in class or/with fellow Wing Chun students?
 What problems or benefits have you found?  
I know that this is the main method for most Wing Chun I see on the Internet and visit.  With this main goal , it seems that any non forward motion is considered counter productive and wrong.

To start off the discussion I will state my findings based on my testings in real life, free tournament, and sparring freely with boxers/thai. (all of them ).


 It seems to work sometimes very well for a short period.
 The pros I have found: it may surprise, confuse, overwhelm the opponent.
 Cons:  
 very tiring (in a free fight tournament) Since you can't hit full force you are basically not going to knock him out.  
 damage is very limited to superficial things like bloody nose or black eye. If you are lucky and overwhelm him in a way that he isn't able to recover  then you may not have to worry about this. You can just kick him while he is down. (I haven't had this happen yet. Normally they recover fast).
 If I am in anyway physically at a disadvantage then it doesn't work. If for example I am farther away. If I am much weaker then the person , if he is faster than me ect..
 When It seems that naturally I am a disadvantage as said above, the idea of getting away then protecting seems to work much better. Maybe is sidestep or backwards.  
 Some people will say that sidestepping or going backwards isn't in the principles/laws ect.. but I disagree. 
 again :
 Who here has used this in a real scenario?  meaning free-fight tournament /NHB tournament/ free-sparring with Boxers/thai ect.. NOT in class or/with fellow Wing Chun students?


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## Andrew Green (Mar 2, 2007)

Regardless of what you are doing, pure agression goes a long way in a fight, at least when using it against someone of fairly low skill level, or that is unaccustomed to getting hit in the face.

It can even work pretty well on experienced guys, but that is a rarity.  

[dmv]http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/19bqkBznnBFzl5JTE[/dmv]


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## profesormental (Mar 2, 2007)

Greetings.

"Blitzing" and/or chain punching is very good to "open the door". I've successfully used it many times in sparring and nhb type sparring situations.

Unfortunately, aftter getting in, more devastating shots should be used, specially if you are at "physical disacvantage". This means going for elbows, knees, controls, takedowns, etc.

In my experience, after a few punches, they cover up. If you don't capitalize on open shots or other opportunities right then, then just hugging you will stop your barrage.

Also, If done with good structure, those can be KO shots... yet if the opponent covers up, it will be unlikely. Like the Belfort and Silva clip, the first punches surprised, then stunned, then flinched and stepped back to escape, then Belfort kept going.

Some people just lower their stance and cover diagonally, then goes for the hug.

Just some scenarios off the top of my head when it hasn't worked.

Again, these stright punches, if they have good structure and body momentum behind them, they're pretty stunning.

Enjoy.

Juan M. Mercado


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## EternalSpringtime (Mar 2, 2007)

I think Wing Chun chain punches to a vital point doesn't require a big amount of power to kill, but what about sparring?. I think that the short range punch is made to deliver maximun power to the opponent. This is called "The One Inch Punch", it's power is tremendous and do alot of harm, Did I miss something?.


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## profesormental (Mar 3, 2007)

Greetings.

Inch power is quite effective in survival/fight type situations, where very effective targets for low power shots are available.

On sparring or MMA type fights, it is great to use to set up the opponent and/or disrupt their structure. Normally this destroys their effective striking ability for a second or two.

Of course, aherence to the rules may lessen the efectiveness of this tactic.

Enjoy.

Juan M. Mercado


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## monji112000 (Mar 4, 2007)

Andrew Green ,


 good clip (although I was hoping for personal experience) thats just as good.


 I remember that fight 


 Vitor  was able to catch Silva (one of my fav MMA fighters). The reality is that you have to time it very well. Also notice the distance that he blitzed in at. Also note that he had to constantly keep it going or it would have given Silva time to recover. Also notice that he only punched the head and it wasn't a chain punch style it was more powerful but slower.


 Timing, distance, constant pressure, following up (it wasn't needed because he fell and Vitor was on top in a second).   


 Thats why I said that in my experience its not as easy and the opportunity doesn't come as much. If you are one track minded and you force it I don't believe it will work most of the time.


 Actually if you train it we (Wing Chun) have some very good defenses for this style of attack.


 One option in Wing Chun is Yie Tong Jit Da


  There's a more advanced technique called Yie Tong Jit Da, which translates as 'two motions in the same direction' (one hand intercepts while the other hits). The footwork is different in this instance because you're stepping to the side with the lead foot followed by the rear foot (maintaining the movement sideways). Turning the shoulder, the guarding hand again intercepts the punch while the lead arm punches the opponent in the face or body. The harder he punches into your intercepting hand, the more force it transfers to your counter-attacking shoulder and fist.  


http://www.wingchunkungfu.cn/mb/index.php?task=view&tid=2032&page=1




 profesormental ,


 yah inch power or last inch power or short distance power (how ever you call it). Can be very effective. But thats not really related to Chain punching or blitze punching.


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## Ali Rahim (Mar 5, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> Regardless of what you are doing, pure agression goes a long way in a fight, at least when using it against someone of fairly low skill level, or that is unaccustomed to getting hit in the face.
> 
> It can even work pretty well on experienced guys, but that is a rarity.
> 
> [dmv]http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/19bqkBznnBFzl5JTE[/dmv]


 

Hello Andrew it seems that you are hiding within your location as any good cow*rd should,, I dont want to hear nothing else but where you are located  You think that I must died saying this while using my IP address linking me to that person!!! To all, trust me he will stay hidden

I know Im wrong for being here because of my skin color and religion but I will happily give you a shot at me anytime you want.  

Ali.


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## Ali Rahim (Mar 5, 2007)

Ok I may be in my 40s but I roadwork 4 times a week and I also specialize in submission fighting as well shoot fighting black belt in judo, wrestling, and Im well versed in ju-jitsu. So I would really love to roll with you.

No hard feelings dude,, lets just do this man to man  dont worry you want hurt me Im a big boy @ 65 / 265lb and can lift well over 400lb Im real easy to find, how about your location and phone number buddy

Just in case you forgot your location and phone number only, and Ill do the rest!!!

Ali.


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## Ali Rahim (Mar 5, 2007)

I know I will lose my reputation marks for standing up for myself, but when a black man stands up; from America standers or stand point, he got to lose sometime!!!   I only say this because saying that someone must died is pretty strong words and nothing was said or done about it,,  I guess its all good which is real sad All right now,, let me have it

Ali.


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## Ali Rahim (Mar 5, 2007)

I know I will lose my reputation marks for standing up for myself, but when a black man stands up; from America standers or stand point, he got to lose something!!! 
I only say this because saying that someone must died is pretty strong words and nothing was said or done about it,,  I guess its all good which is real sad all right now let me have it

Ali.


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## monji112000 (Mar 5, 2007)

Ali whats got your panties all wrinkled?  Doesn't look like he did anything wrong. BUt anyway this isn't the place for that. AND ITS oFF TOPIC! 

maybe you are pissed at my comments on youtube? I was only jokingly making a honest point about the flexibility of the sword. Grow some thick skin. Well anyway then don't take it out on *Andrew Green.

only post with one reply not a bunch of them.*


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## Ali Rahim (Mar 5, 2007)

monji112000 said:


> Ali wants got your panties all wrinkled? Doesn't look like he did anything wrong. BUt anyway this isn't the place for that. AND ITS oFF TOPIC!
> 
> maybe you are pissed at my comments on youtube? I was only jokingly making a honest point about the flexibility of the sword. Grow some thick skin. Well anyway then don't take it out on *Andrew Green.*
> 
> *only post with one reply not a bunch of them.*


 

See what I tell you, it never fells, history will never change  LOL

Ali.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 5, 2007)

I can just feel the love in here, group hug everyone!


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## profesormental (Mar 5, 2007)

Greetings.

My impression is that Ali's reaction was to the ninja penguin Andrew uses as signature.

It displays the browser's computer IP address. Then the "ninja penguin says xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx must die".

It can cause confusion. Clear it up and let's be on our way. Simple misunderstanding of a hi tech joke.

Pretty understandable mistake. Please take that into account.

Juan M. Mercado


P.S. About inch power: it was a comment on another post, yet I do use those principles in chain punching. Specially if there was too much closing of distance and I wanted to open more space for more effective chambering and punching and to avoid more of a grappling situation.


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## monji112000 (Mar 5, 2007)

ROLFPIMFP

so thats the big deal...

anyway,

I think I follow you Prof. So you are saying you sometimes use it when you are too close and need to get some space?

I can't say I have tried that so I don't know. For me I find that if I am too close then I would just "get way". Meaning something like gun sao or qwan sao and turn to create a large amount of distance. I don't know the name of the footwork in Chinese. My sifu just says get away (I get too confused with chinese words).


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## Andrew Green (Mar 5, 2007)

Death threat removed 

* For the record, it mirrored your IP so it was a general purpose death threat, everyone saw there own IP address.


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## profesormental (Mar 5, 2007)

Greetings!

When someone gets too close while chain punching, forward momentum will keep the opponent off balance... that is good!

Stepping back will create a breathing space with your momentum going back. That is a window for forward momentum of the opponent which in sporting situations leads many times to takedowns.

Forward pressure may cause the stumbling of the opponent and cause him to drop... which is sort of a takedown, in a sense...

Using kwan sao and gum sao while side stepping seems more in the structure of Wing Chun, as the next step would be in the direction of the opponent. This would keep pressure.

Anyhow, this of course depends on the posture of the opponent. I am expressing my experience whenever I chain punch in sparring and NHB type sparring situations.

Some times I started it with a high wedging push (Looks like the double bil jee in sil lum tao). Lots of very cool stuff!! This leaves out a lot of stuff, yet this will yield good discussion.

Enjoy!

Juan M. Mercado


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## EternalSpringtime (Mar 6, 2007)

profesormental said:


> Greetings!
> 
> When someone gets too close while chain punching, forward momentum will keep the opponent off balance... that is good!
> 
> ...


 
So mentioning the NHB type sparring. Where do you usually punch the opponent with chain punches?. Of course not to the neck I beleive, but still you can knock ypur opponent down. so how you do it?.


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## monji112000 (Mar 6, 2007)

I don't believe that punching to any place but the head in a chain punch can be 100% effective. IF, he is already moving backwards .. then it could be just fine to punch the body.

I have tried only punching the body and in both times it was very unsuccessfully. Although in class it seemed to be perfectly viable. I believe this was because people were relaxing more and giving some in class. Outside of class people will be willing to take more.  

The head controls your center of gravity, so if you are trying to knock someone off balance, the head should be the prime target. But then again it becomes very clear to your opponent that this is your target. So you have to use strategy.

So if I follow you profesormental, you believe that constant pressure and forward motion are the "key" fundamentals of Wing Chun? I have heard this allot from people.  


 So stepping backwards  with a Gun sao, would be counter productive according to this view?  


 Just looking for a friendly discussion.


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## profesormental (Mar 6, 2007)

Greetings.

Remember that in NHB type sparring, the opponent is quite skilled and stepping back may open for a shoot and/or grappling attempt, since you chain punched high.

If punching to the head area, pressure forward and up will upset balance by much... this will make the opponent fall back or rotate to the side to avoid falling and then keep rotating towards you while crouched... which can turn into a grappling attemt.

If it is foreseen, then it can be managed to be advantageous, and even take the back.

If you push down with the low gum sao, you may push the opponent to fall on the floor, since the 2 points of balance (the feet) are way back compared to the body (he's bent over).

If you hit the low gum sao on the shoulder and he falls (he's bent over), you can get side control. Just one of many things to do.

If you go with a gum sao and disengage you might loose advantage, yet if you want a break, then it is good.

Depends on your strategy. Stick and move, stike and shoot, strike and sprawl, etc.

Enjoy!

Juan M. Mercado


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## Andrew Green (Mar 6, 2007)

profesormental said:


> Greetings.
> 
> Remember that in NHB type sparring, the opponent is quite skilled and stepping back may open for a shoot and/or grappling attempt, since you chain punched high.



Actually moving forward, like in chain punching, is a much bigger opening for a takedown then stepping back.  People that are constantly moving away are hard to takedown, unless you can drive them into something, like a fence.

Trained fighters react different then untrained people.  If you want something like this to work, every punch has to land hard, and you got to rock them pretty good before you drive forward.  Basically what Belfort did to Silva.

Fighters basically train a reaction that when getting hit, instead of trying to get away, they drop a little and drive forward.  Either forcing a clinch or going for a takedown.


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## EternalSpringtime (Mar 6, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> Trained fighters react different then untrained people. If you want something like this to work, every punch has to land hard, and you got to rock them pretty good before you drive forward. Basically what Belfort did to Silva.


 
That's why a close range punch was made to be strong in its impact, as it derives the full force that comes from the structure of the center derived from the ground. a repitition of hitting in one area will knock down the opponent for sure. Belfort technique was quite good. I saw Fedor do the same in his fights, he keeps hitting his opponents heads down until he knocks them. Same goes for Wing Chun, but the chain punches are faster since it goes in a straight motion.


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## Si-Je (Mar 7, 2007)

okay.  Foreward pressure constant.  The blitz method (chain punching while constantly moving forward into the opponent) Keeps physical, mental, and stresses the opponent.  Thus, not giving him/her time to counter, recover, or regroup their fighting stratagy.

Your power in the chain punching comes from linear striking, inertia with forward movement, your opponent's forward movement will make the punches stronger, and grouping your entire body weight behind the chainpunching by moving forward.  If the opponent gets close enough to grapple then you follow through with elbows, knees, and stamp kick causing the opponent to be too unbalanced to effectively grapple or take you down.  Control of the opponents head as he leans or bends over to grapple you will effectively thwart their stratagies with the takedown or grappling.

I can understand your desire to get away from a stronger attacker.  But instead of stepping to the side of the opponent you step forward at a 45 degree angle, working to the side of your stronger opponent.
ex.  instead of stepping this way

Opponent
|                                                 
|
|___>You

This way gives the opponent your side and vitals as they come forward.  You have stopped your forward force energy, changed your structure, and basically have fallen into playing your opponent's game.  Especially if their bigger and stronger than you.  They know this, and will try to capitalize on your fear, and lack of equal strength to bowl you over.

Instead, move with a pivot as they come in, 

Opponent
|
|
 /You

This keeps them close to you so you can more easily counter and attack while re-directing their forward force/advance from you.  Thus, revealing their side to you for attack, while you keep your structure, balance, and power.

Or you can do a combination of both.  Attack moving forward into the opponent while pivoting to their side to defelct supiour strength like so..

Opponent
You    \|

As the opponent comes into you you step forward while pivoting to the side chain punching the temple, hinge of the jaw, kidneys, floating rib, etc.
As soon as you make contact to their side you immediately continue going forward into them striking, kicking and deflecting.

Wing Chun isn't limited to line fighting.  You can go forward into the opponent other ways than just straight in from in front of them.  This I would not recomend if the opponent is stronger, taller, and bulkier than you.  That would be foolhardy.  And painful!

Just my two cents.


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## monji112000 (Mar 7, 2007)

Andrew Green ,


 Actually moving forward, like in chain punching, is a much bigger opening for a takedown then stepping back. People that are constantly moving away are hard to takedown, unless you can drive them into something, like a fence. 


 This is what I have come to see also, but not just for takedowns. I find it pretty handy and it throws people off to move away  and time things like I have seen many boxers do.
 They bob and weave with amazing timing and skill.  


 When I drive in without the correct timing or just because to try and over power the person I normally get hit allot. It doesn't matter if I chain punch or not because they are normally swing for the fences. You take some they take some, its all about who can take the most and dish the most the fastest. ( Something I get the short end of the stick most of the time).


 I am finding that timing and covering are really key components.


 Si-je,


 I can understand your desire to get away from a stronger attacker. But instead of stepping to the side of the opponent you step forward at a 45 degree angle, working to the side of your stronger opponent.   


 here something to think about when you step forward to do anything when someone is attacking you have just caused that persons attack (ie punch) to move faster. Why because you have shortened the distance between the two points. Your reaction and continued reactions have to be that much faster. BUT, if I step back and to a angle I have just created more distance from my opponent. If he continues Its obvious to me, and I have more time to react. Maybe I would want to cover and then blitz in throwing him off.

This is why I like things like Gun sao or Gaun Sao (how ever you want to spell it). You can get back and cover and large distance then jam in.
 This seems to work very well for 1,2 style combinations, and many other things.


 A good example of getting away and then coming in is this clip. She gets away just enough and then comes in. In reality you would follow up more but this is cutt off just for drilling purposes.
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/mpg2000/122799r.mpg


 here is another one using timing and getting away it shows the Yie Tong Jit Da  
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/mpg2000/121499k.mpg


 here is another clip of My sigung (Duncan Leung)
 talking about  a technique called Gun sao kick back. It uses the the idea of timing and getting away also.
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/mpg2000/122100g.mpg


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## Si-Je (Mar 8, 2007)

monji112000 said:


> When I drive in without the correct timing or just because to try and over power the person I normally get hit allot. It doesn't matter if I chain punch or not because they are normally swing for the fences. You take some they take some, its all about who can take the most and dish the most the fastest. ( Something I get the short end of the stick most of the time).


 
If you try to overpower someone your not using WC concepts.  Too much strength and effort spent.




monji112000 said:


> here something to think about when you step forward to do anything when someone is attacking you have just caused that persons attack (ie punch) to move faster. Why because you have shortened the distance between the two points. Your reaction and continued reactions have to be that much faster. BUT, if I step back and to a angle I have just created more distance from my opponent. If he continues Its obvious to me, and I have more time to react. Maybe I would want to cover and then blitz in throwing him off.
> 
> This is why I like things like Gun sao or Gaun Sao (how ever you want to spell it). You can get back and cover and large distance then jam in.
> This seems to work very well for 1,2 style combinations, and many other things.


 
If you fall into combinations you play their game.  Their is no Combos in WC, just sensitivity and flowing with the opponents force.  You put yourself at a disadvantage.  
As for making their attack quicker, that's fine, because it will allow you to counter that much quicker.  You use sensitivity, you don't always have to "see" the attack, you feel it.


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## brothershaw (May 5, 2007)

Si-Je said:


> If you try to overpower someone your not using WC concepts. Too much strength and effort spent.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Great post. I dont like chain punches for anything more than a training tool.


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## Nobody (May 14, 2007)

monji112000 said:


> Andrew Green ,
> 
> 
> Actually moving forward, like in chain punching, is a much bigger opening for a takedown then stepping back. People that are constantly moving away are hard to takedown, unless you can drive them into something, like a fence. 
> ...


 
I can agree that the angle you take has a great effect on the opponent an so does moving the head.  The most important thing is not getting in to a combination type battle once you take ground from the opponent let them know that you are not going to just going step back cause they punch.  Instead stay an read with your eyes what they are presenting if you see them begin a attack fit your self in to them like a puzzle piece take the area of least resistance is how i fight.

Those are actually the most wing chung looking vids thing i have seen on the Internet in some time a bit better than what i have seen most of the time.  With the exception of the Vids of Yipman.


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## monji112000 (May 14, 2007)

I have nothing against using the chain punch. I just don't like the idea of constantly blitzing it chain punching. 

It seems like everyone seems to think this is Wing Chun and that its the "core" or trademark of our style.  If you feel it works for you, great. what do I know anyway right? LOL  If all the big names say to do it, then hell it must be a smart thing todo? Just use common sense.. it goes a long way.:soapbox:


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## Nobody (May 14, 2007)

Yea, it can be bad thing like you are saying against a advanced enough opponent you will be trapped.


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## streetwise (May 15, 2007)

Si-Je's advice on angles is very good, and if you try the basic method she outlines, you should be able to learn to maintain contact. If you do not manage to maintain contact, preferring to pop in and pop out, you will have a hard time utilizing one of WC's best weapons, sensitivity. 

When it comes to the old favorite, the chain punch charge down the middle, it is a natural progression of a "what works for beginners" tool.

 Advanced use of the chain punch is from contact as part of the natural flow of your forward pressure, flowing into other techniques as the opponent reacts to the chain punch. 

A beginner learns that all "that sensitivity and flow stuff" is not really needed if he gets there first (on another beginner) with a furious chain punching blitz. As the student progresses, superior speed, development of short power, improving footwork, etc, allow him to continue dominating less advanced or less physically gifted practitioners with a "Hey diddle diddle, straight blast up the middle" approach. At some point, the practitioner should slow down a little, pretend he lacks whichever trait seems to let him "banzai" his fellow students,(go soft if he overpowers others, go slow if he dominates with speed) and start working the chain punch into a more developed offense. 

Except for demonstrations, how often do you see really advanced practioners just run across the room like some chain punching rhino?


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## monji112000 (May 15, 2007)

> Si-Je's advice on angles is very good, and if you try the basic method she outlines, you should be able to learn to maintain contact.


 

 I don't doubt contact will be maintained.. its a question of what type of contact. Moving forward into someone fist no matter the angle most of the time isn't a &#8220;smart&#8221; idea. Unless you time it correctly and you are not too far away you create a worse scenario. Instead of trying to deal with a puch coming at X speed from X distance away, you have drastically decreased the distance and increased the speed. You are forced to rely more on your own Personal speed and physical abilities.  


 Have you ever played the game dodge ball? I did all the time as a kid, I loved the game. Nobody ever jumped forward.. only to the side or back and to the side.  Its just common sense.




> When it comes to the old favorite, the chain punch charge down the middle, it is a natural progression of a "what works for beginners" tool.


 

 thats the point, it doesn't work 75-85% of the time. What makes it work. You have to be faster to beat his attack. OR you have to be physically stronger/taller to out punch him and deliver more power than he does. I conducted a experiment with some friends who had Thai boxing experience. Different sizes of opponents, to see if I could use this strategy, maybe I am wrong..


 my conclusion: when I did deliver a blitz chain punch effectively, I knocked the person over and they got back up. Not much damage. The bigger and faster guys just laughed and beat the hell out of me.  


 Then, I  used the chain punch effectively , to follow up for a second then kick. No matter the size or speed. Once I initiated a clean reaction then attack, then chain-punch then kick. Worked almost every time.  JMO if you do the same experiment and get a different result.. well then hey continue doing what works for you.




> Advanced use of the chain punch is from contact as part of the natural flow of your forward pressure, flowing into other techniques as the opponent reacts to the chain punch.


 

 I agree with this line of thinking once contact is made you should be able to &#8220;apply&#8221; chi sao. Its just that its not so easy or simply. Sometimes yes and sometimes no. I don't believe that you will be in a &#8220;safe&#8221; position.   


 If  for example you shoot a sop sao, he covers by putting his hands up. Thats a great way to get contact and you can continue with a &#8220;chi sao&#8221; application. Or you throw a qwan sao, that for me is a good chance to do something like that. But Wing Chun isn't limited to this aspect of fighting, and I believe this is the more dangerous approach to fighting. For me its safer to keep your distance and it helps keep the fight standing. Thats the first thing you learn in a MMA style class.  




> Except for demonstrations, how often do you see really advanced practitioners just run across the room like some chain punching rhino?


 

 Honestly that the bulk of what I have seen in visiting schools. I watched someone the other day spar who was a &#8220;Ving Tsun&#8221; fighter i think that was the spelling.. It wasn't pretty. The fact was the wrestler took every punch he gave him and clinched then slammed him. It was so loud I felt the pain from the slam. I asked him if he honestly felt like the guys circular style chain-punches (I hate when people do circular chain-punches!) would stop him even if he wasn't used to getting punched. His answer was : 

 &#8220;maybe if the guy was bigger and caught me at the right time.. but then again maybe not. For sure not with a  few beers in me.&#8221;

 If its one thing I have learned is that things are allot easier when you type then on a forum, and a hell of allot harder when the guy is swinging and fighting like he means it.   

 If you can catch him off guard then yah the blitz chain-punch should work fine. But really just about anything will work if you catch them off guard. its all the other times that you really need to prepare for.


 JMO don't listen to me wtf do i know?


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## bcbernam777 (May 21, 2007)

The thing to remember about fighting, in reality, is that it is a flux, constantly changing, constantly moving. To try and nail down a principle, and look at its pros and cons is an excercise in futility. The only relaity is the moment, nothing else, when you are trapped in that space, that time frame, with that person who wants to punch the **** out of you, it is then that theories distill themeselves into reality. Blitz, it works, so does the trap, so does the front push kick, so does the Gum to mid punch, they all work, they all have value only within the flow of the reality that you face when you square of against an opponent. If you try to create a box for yourselves by constant arguments over what works and what doesn't, you will only create a confusion for yourself that will lead to emptyness.​


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## Si-Je (May 21, 2007)

monji112000 said:


> I don't doubt contact will be maintained.. its a question of what type of contact. Moving forward into someone fist no matter the angle most of the time isn't a smart idea. Unless you time it correctly and you are not too far away you create a worse scenario. Instead of trying to deal with a puch coming at X speed from X distance away, you have drastically decreased the distance and increased the speed. You are forced to rely more on your own Personal speed and physical abilities.


 

Your not understanding dear.  Moving foreward with structure and forward pressure while you deflect the punch, thus will re-direct the punch away from you, moving forward makes the attack faster sure, but it also makes your "counter attack" that much faster and doesn't give the opponent time to counter or use combination attacks.
If you step on their knee (more so than snap kicking the knee) so to speak as you move forward with your deflection punch and kick/step you will "kill' the opponents power almost completely.  A good boxer can't punch well without the hip pivoting, and without their footwork.  Essentially, by kicking (or as we say at our school stepping into your opponent) and deflecting the initial attack you totally throw off their balance for standing much less punching or grappling.  This followed up immediately by chain punching follows through and finishes an opponents plan of attack, while helping to cover you from further punching techniques from said opponent.

When stepping 45 degrees, or zoning from an opponents attack, it is cruitial to step toward them and slightly at a 45 degree angle.  The pivot is not premeditatied as much as it just happens.  You only pivot when the opponent is stronger, or depending on where their weight shifts.  If pivoting is not necessary, then don't do it.  Come straight in with the blitz.  
Stepping backwards at an angle, gives you no advante over your opponent or the fight.  It just delays the enevitable, that you WILL get hit.  It decreaces your options of attack, and defense, and gives control to your opponent, whether their stronger, faster, larger whatever.  Takes too much time.  Time for error.  Time to stratagize, and thus keeping you from "feeling" your opponents intentions.
This is Wing Chun.  Other arts do not fight like this, at all.  Not that I've seen.  No art punches like WC, no art advances forward into the opponent like WC, no art has the same or even similar stance as WC, and no other art utilizes the same principles.
These are just the very basic principles of Wing Chun.  Master these, and progress.  If you don't believe they'll work, then they will never work for you.  If you have confidence in your teachers and teaching, training, and Wing Chun in general, these concepts will work very well against stronger larger attackers.  
Trust me, my "sparring" buddie is 6'4", with arms like a gorilla! lol!  His reach is twice my own!  If I ran away from him, backed up, and tried to dodge, he could still punch the crap out of me.  The only difference is I couldn't deflect his punches and darn sure couldn't reach that far to punch him back.  Trust me again, going backwards is a losing battle.


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## monji112000 (May 21, 2007)

> Blitz, it works





> Your not understanding dear.



like i said if it works for you, then great. Martial arts is about personal development, so if you think its a great thing.. then go with it.

that doesn't negate what I said, its a  relative thing.  Not all  Wing Chun "styles" feel this is a viable option most of the time.



> These are just the very basic principles of Wing Chun.



well that again is relative, I guarantee if you visited a wide variety of Wing Chun Schools you wouldn't say that. 



> no art advances forward into the opponent


I would really think about why? with the advent of the Internet and the massive exchange if information. 
Don't forget that when you say Wing Chun .... you are talking about your style. 

its not a black and white issue. I believe in learning and training with both the pros and cons of something. Looking at the whole picture and not making blind decisions. 
basic common sense.


 :drinkbeer


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## Nobody (May 22, 2007)

The reason i say the blitz is just so so, is you can be taken down by single or double leg take down as you rush forward this does not mean i do not get hit doing this just means i use the bridge to control the upper torso an than go to the legs.  There are other throws that could truly hurt someone if they did not have the experience with Wing Chung.

There is something i do think is funny is when you watch new students to Wing Chung spar when both try to use it at the same time.


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## brocklee (Jun 19, 2007)

monji112000 said:


> like i said if it works for you, then great. Martial arts is about personal development, so if you think its a great thing.. then go with it.
> 
> that doesn't negate what I said, its a  relative thing.  Not all  Wing Chun "styles" feel this is a viable option most of the time.
> 
> ...



Your concepts of wing chun seem similar to WT.  Si-je has a very firm concept of Ip Man wing chun which anyone that studies true wc would recognize.  

You said:

 thats the point, it doesn't work 75-85% of the time. What makes it work. You have to be faster to beat his attack. OR you have to be physically stronger/taller to out punch him and deliver more power than he does. I conducted a experiment with some friends who had Thai boxing experience. Different sizes of opponents, to see if I could use this strategy, maybe I am wrong..

--------------------------------
You are already faster then the opponent if you're using WC, and they aren't,  because punch comes from center mass and ride the center line to the other persons center mass.  Its direct and appears to be faster because its traveling a shorter distance. If you're using WC and you are developed somewhat in skill, these punches will be 85-90% effective because you will know when to shoot.  If someone is attacking, chain punching may stun the other person and knock them back.   I certainly wouldn't use more then a few chain punches because the opportunity will only be there for a short time before the other person decides to close his hole.  Then I will chose another line of attack.  My lineage teaches to disrupt the other's structure and get them off center...then shoot.  

You state you need to be stronger/taller.  Remember that wc was created with a girl in mind.  Not a UFC competitor.  If your using strength, then you are not relaxed.  Not being relaxed adds resistance and is a loss of true WC power.  It comes down to flow, joint alignment and energy transfer.


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## Em MacIntosh (Jun 19, 2007)

Coming from a straight blast jkd opinion, I beleive the concept is sound.  The fists open the door to elbow knee/range which you can throw more power into.  You don't need to knock a guy out with your fists when you have a pair of perfectly good elbows.  I also understand there's a wing chun technique called crippling step, very subtle and quick.  Every stuation is different..etc.


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## Si-Je (Sep 12, 2007)

It's all timing.  I don't "blitz" someone from across the room.  They see you coming.  
But once close enough to strike, sure do.  Punch them till they fall down.


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## brocklee (Sep 12, 2007)

Si-Je said:


> It's all timing.  I don't "blitz" someone from across the room.  They see you coming.
> But once close enough to strike, sure do.  Punch them till they fall down.



Hi, glad to see yer postin


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## KamonGuy2 (Sep 17, 2007)

Ali - dude, I am confused as to your problem. But you sound like a passionate guy. I have trouble finding big guys who do grappling so I would love to roll with you and work on my ground game, although I am not as experienced as you seem to be. 

Going back to topic, I have found mixed success with the blitz method. I got knocked out at one tournament as I committed too much. My opponent moved and gave me a hook to the jaw!!

I have found that it can work wonders on TKD guys, but struggles with BJJ guys (as that is what they want - you to close in). 

When I fight I will 'stalk' my opponent (ie creep in, until my guard is close enough). This makes long range kicking/striking null and void.

You must remember that a lot of good MMA fighters have seen lots of different martial arts and expect people to close in


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## qwksilver61 (Sep 18, 2007)

Has anyone here has ever seen  Leung Ting  or Emin Boztepe in action or their advanced students fight? If you were to read/learn their grading system,it explains quite a bit as to what a student achieves as he/her progresses.More advanced,more deadly force that can be delivered.Chi sao is likened to being on auto pilot once contact & and the wiring in is achieved,borrowing your opponents force is a head rush (turnstile effect,ie;larger opponent shoving his punch at you turning you at a forty-five,add your straight line attack,along with hundreds of chain punches (ie;hours on the wall bag,SMACK down power development) what is a few punches delivered in a few seconds with that kind of momentum?Good stuff! Works real good for some of us.


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## brocklee (Sep 19, 2007)

qwksilver61 said:


> Has anyone here has ever seen  Leung Ting  or Emin Boztepe in action or their advanced students fight? If you were to read/learn their grading system,it explains quite a bit as to what a student achieves as he/her progresses.More advanced,more deadly force that can be delivered.Chi sao is likened to being on auto pilot once contact & and the wiring in is achieved,borrowing your opponents force is a head rush (turnstile effect,ie;larger opponent shoving his punch at you turning you at a forty-five,add your straight line attack,along with hundreds of chain punches (ie;hours on the wall bag,SMACK down power development) what is a few punches delivered in a few seconds with that kind of momentum?Good stuff! Works real good for some of us.



I used to study the LT version of wing chun.  What's he call himself now?  Grand Master of the Almighty?  How long have you been studying WT for?  I accidentally contracted myself into a few of the classes and got out because I realized when I would ask a question, the answer I was getting was "I dunno why".  Or the answer plain out didn't make sense.   

The grading system is to keep students stuck for as long as possible.  To ensure that a certain sum of $$ is obtained before reaching the next level.  It shouldn't take a year and a half to chi sao and chi sao shouldn't become an auto pilot kinda of thing.  Hundreds of chain punches = hundreds of punches to many, if you follow the basic guidelines of efficiency.

Turn style rotates you off of the center axis.  Good bye structure


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## KamonGuy2 (Sep 19, 2007)

Hahaha Brocklee, you are my new hero!!

Leung Ting is the master of the deadly talk. He is not a bad wing chunner, but teaches bad wing chun. Bozteppi distances himself a lot from LT and a lot of senior grades of WT tend to claim that their art is amazingly deadly. 

Wing chun gets a lot of flack from other arts because of this kind of claim. Wing chun is no more deadly than any other art. It is quick and to the point, but it will not kill you with one strike!

There was a good clip of WT and LT on 'Mind, Body and Kick *** moves' where his students demonstrated chain punching. It was extremely poor


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## brocklee (Sep 19, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> Hahaha Brocklee, you are my new hero!!
> 
> Leung Ting is the master of the deadly talk. He is not a bad wing chunner, but teaches bad wing chun. Bozteppi distances himself a lot from LT and a lot of senior grades of WT tend to claim that their art is amazingly deadly.
> 
> ...



I have seen the video you talking about, looked kool.  My sifu tells me, "if you want to see how good LT WC is, take a look at his pole video."  Apparently, the pole works the practitioner as oppose to the practitioner working the pole.


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## Si-Je (Sep 19, 2007)

Ouch!  Everyone tired of LT WT.  lol!
He does blab too much, can't stand to watch his videos!

I think alot of people go too far with the "blitz method" as an end all to be all.  Especially dudes.  
If you start a fight off with it, it could work as an element of surprise, or your strength could get you through (if your strong), but at times it can allow you to be lead into what a boxer, or MMA/grappler (blegth!) , or wiley opponent may want to set you up for attack.  Using too much aggression can often make you UBER vulnerable!

But.. it is definiately cruitial!  If the opponent is larger you'll not be able to knock them out in one blow.  Unless your just lucky and/or study pressure points all day long.  
And Wing Chun's claim to being deadly and devastating is accurate, practical, and true.  It's not like it's claiming to be like Dim Mak, one touch, strike one kill.  get real.  pay attention.

It's devastating because you defend and attack at the same time, follow up with "blitzing" and punch them till they fall down.  Or if their bigger, kick AND punch them till they fall down.  Blitzing does not take away the power in Wing Chun's punching technique, it amplifies it.

If your opponent is stronger and you have to pivot 45 degrees whatever, you keep YOUR centerline on them and blitz from there, usually striking them repeatedly in the side of the head, neck, or at the back of the spine/neck whatever.  Your more likely to get a knockout from this position than from a face to face blitzing straight in type approach.  I see guys doing this alot.  I try it and usually eat some big dudes chest, shoulder or elbow.  Or, I kick the knee as I "blitz", this brings the taller guys face to my level and makes chain punching effective.

Now MMA guys tend to punch and back off at the same time, so blitzing is not always wise.  This sets you up for grappling, a knock out, whatever.  Don't chase them.  This is where sensitivity saves your butt.
You feel them, you blitz them until they run away.  Then chill.  Wait until you have contact again.  Punch and kick alot. and follow where you feel them move.  If you lose contact don't chase the opponent, if they grapple, anti-grappling kicks in, knees, elbows, forearm shivers, whatever.  If they give you their head and shoot in, enjoy the gift and keep the head as they take you down.  punch it too, since it's there.

Just a little tiny woman's insight.


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## brocklee (Sep 19, 2007)

Si-Je said:


> Ouch!  Everyone tired of LT WT.  lol!
> He does blab too much, can't stand to watch his videos!
> 
> I think alot of people go too far with the "blitz method" as an end all to be all.  Especially dudes.
> ...



Yer very right and seem to be right almost all the time.  Great post


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## AceHBK (Sep 19, 2007)

Ok so I saw this in a movie so tell me if it is totally false....

in WC size does matter in how u attack opponents..

If you are a smaller person and taking on a larger person (say twice ya size) , you try to do a majority of your counter attacking from the side to avoid blows direct on.

If your a large person you don't worry about using counter attacks from the side but focus primarily on a str8 fwd attack.

Total b.s or somewhat true?


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## qwksilver61 (Sep 19, 2007)

Sorry to say but,why are some of you attacking Wing Tsun in a Wing Chun Forum? Kind of pointless? What does this have to do with MMA? If you had spent any amount of time in the Leung Ting system or know anything about his lineage you would say otherwise,again most want fast food fast.My advice
attend a seminar,ask the senior instructor in a friendly manner or the senior students for a real demo,say maybe a one on one,you and that person and see what develops.You might be surprised. I met Ting personally,and he is an amazing and humble human being who possesses an ancient Chinese art.
Obviously you did not possess the patience to learn properly.Besides why would any of you even attempt to discredit someones Sifu? You are Martial artists? Who are your instructors? I would not even think of dissing them,or bad mouthing anyone.
This forum is starting to remind me of some of the chat rooms.Too bad,I thought some people had a little more class.


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## AceHBK (Sep 19, 2007)

qwksilver61 said:


> Sorry to say but,why are some of you attacking Wing Tsun in a Wing Chun Forum? Kind of pointless? What does this have to do with MMA? If you had spent any amount of time in the Leung Ting system or know anything about his lineage you would say otherwise,again most want fast food fast.My advice
> attend a seminar,ask the senior instructor in a friendly manner or the senior students for a real demo,say maybe a one on one,you and that person and see what develops.You might be surprised. I met Ting personally,and he is an amazing and humble human being who possesses an ancient Chinese art.
> Obviously you did not possess the patience to learn properly.Besides why would any of you even attempt to discredit someones Sifu? You are Martial artists? Who are your instructors? I would not even think of dissing them,or bad mouthing anyone.
> This forum is starting to remind me of some of the chat rooms.Too bad,I thought some people had a little more class.


 
Never take criticism personally.  Messageboards are places for people to provide their opinions on things and that is what happens.  If you expect everyone to be kissy kissy and hold hands and agree all the time your in the wrong place.  Only thru debate do we learn more.

From what I have seen in WC the debate will always be there b/c of the amount of politics that goes on, don't wear ya heart on ya sleeve.

Instead of attacking maybe you should answer with something to combat their arguments.  Just how you don't agree with them, there are many who don't agree with you.

Also, who else isbetter to receive criticism on a art?  I would listen to practitioner sof that art before I would people who do not practice it.


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## brocklee (Sep 20, 2007)

qwksilver61 said:


> Sorry to say but,why are some of you attacking Wing Tsun in a Wing Chun Forum? Kind of pointless? What does this have to do with MMA? If you had spent any amount of time in the Leung Ting system or know anything about his lineage you would say otherwise,again most want fast food fast.My advice
> attend a seminar,ask the senior instructor in a friendly manner or the senior students for a real demo,say maybe a one on one,you and that person and see what develops.You might be surprised. I met Ting personally,and he is an amazing and humble human being who possesses an ancient Chinese art.
> Obviously you did not possess the patience to learn properly.Besides why would any of you even attempt to discredit someones Sifu? You are Martial artists? Who are your instructors? I would not even think of dissing them,or bad mouthing anyone.
> This forum is starting to remind me of some of the chat rooms.Too bad,I thought some people had a little more class.



Leung Ting is humble?  one sec...lemme find you his description in the WC archive:
	Yip Man's second to last private student; trained with Yip Man 2x a week for  	9 months.  Trained with Leung Sheung 1st.  Trademarked "Wing  	Tsun", which is now the largest martial arts organization in the world.  	"Grandmaster of Almightyness".

^^--lol humble 

I don't agree with any one attacking any certain style.  I think, however, that they should make WT it's own MA because it has been trademarked.  Even though they're pronounced the same, they're completely different.  There's a great practitioner on these forums, and its a female....She trains both arts at the same time and can give you a good description of both and the benefits and downfall of each.

There's a lot of politics when it comes to the two.  What was taught to me,  the students of Ip Man aren't too fond of LT.  I can understand why.

We really need to stay on topic.  Try not to pop into every thread and tell us how good your WT is and to research it more.  Thread jacking gets you banned here.  The mods are really active on these forums.


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## brocklee (Sep 20, 2007)

AceHBK said:


> Ok so I saw this in a movie so tell me if it is totally false....
> 
> in WC size does matter in how u attack opponents..
> 
> ...



I'd say BS.  Use what you have at that moment.  Any opening is an opportunity for an advance, just remember to make the most efficient decision for that moment.  You always want to attack from the side when able to.  You don't, however, want to go out of your way to attack from the side if it's easier to break through their center.  Attacking from the side is really nice because the kidneys are exposed and they LOVE being palm struck   plus look at the angle you're left with on the leg, nice opportunity for a kick.


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## Si-Je (Sep 22, 2007)

AceHBK said:


> in WC size does matter in how u attack opponents..
> 
> If you are a smaller person and taking on a larger person (say twice ya size) , you try to do a majority of your counter attacking from the side to avoid blows direct on.
> 
> ...





brocklee said:


> I'd say BS. Use what you have at that moment. Any opening is an opportunity for an advance, just remember to make the most efficient decision for that moment. You always want to attack from the side when able to. You don't, however, want to go out of your way to attack from the side if it's easier to break through their center. Attacking from the side is really nice because the kidneys are exposed and they LOVE being palm struck   plus look at the angle you're left with on the leg, nice opportunity for a kick.



I agree with both.  kinda.  My approach to larger men is totally different than that which my hubbie can do.  At 6'4" mostly he can just come straight in using tan sau.  Me, not usually on a larger attacker.  I use Dai sau alot on hooks and sure can go straight in, but I noticed that the longer I stay in a larger opponent's center line the risker it is for me.  So, my ultamite goal is to get to thier side or back.  But my hubbie can litterly just plow through most people with little effort using WC/WT.  But alot of times he prefers the side approach when it's THERE.  When the opponent puts him there, don't force it.  Whatever you try to force in WC/WT whether it's an angle, attack, etc. diminishes your best option for netrualiztion.  That's why I may come to the side more than a big guy because I'm usually PUT there by my opponent's force, and pressure.

Just use your strengths, and turn your disadvantages into an advantage in the simplest way possible.  

ex.  most times I can't even reach hubbies head to chain punch, so kick him to bring the face to my level so I don't have to try so hard to punch.

ex.  or if he gives me a back fist strike and I tan sau, well his force is too great and starts to turn me, so not to collaspe, I pivot, latch, kick and punch or spade hand to the kidney simply because I'm there.  Always start out going forward straight, but adapt the forward angle according to their pressure and inertia.  (still going forward)  But don't try to get in your head,  "I'm going to pivot and get to their side" before you engage.  This is big time anticipation and your opponent may do something unexpected.

I totally fight different being small and female than just about everyone else I've seen in application, and execution.  The basics and theory are the same.  But then most people doing WC are big dudes (that I've come across anyway).

AceHBK, is the movie your talking about "the Prodical Son?"  (can't spell, ack.)  With the two bothers with different styles of WC/WT?  One a big burley guy and the other the slender dude with asmtha?
If so, great movie!


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